# Manning Up - Alternative Point of View



## nice777guy

Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.

As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...

The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.

A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.

So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet. 

Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?

To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


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## Acorn

nice777guy said:


> Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.
> 
> As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...
> 
> The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.
> 
> So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


I believe the point of manning up is not to be nice to your wife, nor conform with people in this forum, but rather to discover yourself and become the best you can be, regardless of your wife or Men's Clubhouse friends.


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## Lon

yeah, it really is one of those intangible things - the more you try the more you can't get it. Like a finger trap for your virility. Even the guys telling other men on here to man up are breaking their own rules by simply participating in that way, the real man wouldn't bother coming here in the first place - a real man would be there if his bro was hurting, but wouldn't put anonymous people on a forum on that level.

I dislike conformity, yet can't reject it since its just another form of conformity. I hate that there are so few patterns which always emerge on this site, no matter how unique everyone that comes on here thinks they are. I despise the term "leader" because that just means you've been MORE successful at conformity. I hate the term "follower" since unless it is meant in the religious sense it is seen as inferior. Anyways, for the sake of my masculity, those that don't reply to my comment you can all just F off, and those that do you can too. jk of course


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## jayde

Lon - FU . . . Manly enough for you??? : )) jk

Maybe 'manning up' is just a misnomer (can a real man use a word like that especially when talking about being a man with other men . . . umm, I dunno, what do you guys think and then I'll go along with that . . .uh . . . would that be ok guys?)

Maybe 'undoormatting' would work. Or - 'just live your friggin life pal' would work. But what I got out of it is for me to stop trying to please, or appease my wife or anyone else, just to make them feel good. When that happens often enough, there's nothing left of yourself. And then you're in real trouble - there's nothing left (really) for other people to respect or love. And does any woman want that? I for one have been stunned by the affects of some manning up on my life and marriage. ANd I don't think I was a total doormat nor an impossibly Nice Guy. My wife actually sat on my lap and made out with me the other night (unprompted) AND she apologized for something . . . all in the same friggin week. And we're married 20 years! Whatever you want to call it, I'm a believer.

"Be your own man."

(Hopefully my wife will still be talking to me in six months. Ummm ... I better check to make sure this is ok with my wife) 

Good luck!


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> No NG I don’t accept that. It was just a few days ago that you said you were never going to change. That you don’t see why you should change. So basically you were just playing lip service all the way through. I am really sorry for you that you have lost your wife. I really am. But you will never know now if you could have gone onto a greater love IF you had tried changing some of your core values and rules and hence your behaviour.
> 
> I can’t live like that. So I HAVE TO at least TRY and know I gave it my very bests shots. But my wife is like you NG. In that she absolutely refused to change. And like your wife I ended my marriage never to return. And like you my wife will never know if we could have gone onto a greater and deeper love.





nice777guy said:


> Bob - you may have to help me out with a quote or something about me not changing. I won't deny I said it - but it sure doesn't sound like me. Unless it was specific to something I'm passionate about.
> 
> Thank you for being sorry - but I'm not sure its necessary.
> 
> Do you remember when I posted about how my wife wanted to go to a bike rally? I was willing to go. But then - she started arguing more with me as the days approached. She didn't want me to go...plain and simple. But she didn't have the balls to end the marriage at that time so she was playing head games. Not long ago - THAT particular bike rally was on an "alternative" channel (HDNET) on some sleazy Travel-type show - episode titled "The Nakedest Episode Ever".
> 
> Change like that - I don't need! I am not following her down that kind of rabbit hole! Especially not while our kids are young.
> 
> Like I said - I've learned a lot from guys like MEM, BBW and Deejo - and others at times, including yourself. I try to use what i think makes sense. If I had no desire to change, why did I bother to buy and read NMMNG and The Way of the Superior Man?
> 
> I'm a good person. My wife is slowly self destructing.
> 
> Change is not always progress.


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## nice777guy

A bit more Bob...

When I first came here - I was desparately trying to figure out how to save my marriage. Now - I'm trying to figure out how to be a better person and a stronger man and I'm letting her go...

I'm different. That's change...

I could say a few more things - I have a few thoughts in my head about how to drag you through the mud - but it wouldn't help me. I'd just be trying to win an argument!

And how's this for Manning Up...I don't CARE if my school teachers were women or my mother coddled me. I don't care if my Dad didn't spend time with me, explaining how the world works - take me under his wing, so to speak. And I truly don't care that maybe - somewhere - a woman or a minority male got a $500 grant or scholarship or that I never had a chance at because I'm a white man.

I pay my bills. I take care of my kids. I'm in the PTA. I'm learning to do a better job of staninding up for myself. I'm getting divorced - and I'm just fine with that.

Personal accountability. Manning up. Call it what you want. Love me or not. I am who I am - and that IS subject to change - but only on my terms. And I'm not going to blame some grumpy woman who burned her bra in 1970 - nor will I blame my parents or my soon to be ex-wife - for any of my problems or mistakes. 

I also won't side with the men on an argument just because I have a penis - and I won't side with women just because I like them a bit better sometimes!

So - if you or anyone else wants to pick me apart - that's great. I'm wearing my big boy pants and I've put on my "serious" face! Obviously, I put this out here knowing I'd get flack from someone. And I can't say I'm surprised it was you that fired the first shot!

Thanks Bob. Your opinions are appreciated and noted...


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## AFEH

NG, I occasionally get called a Man’s Man, both here in TAM with PMs and a few close female friends. It’s not a label I’d give myself and it’s not what I set out in life to be. But I kind of like the definition, especially this one from Urban Dictionary: Man's man

"A man who is strong and masculine; meaning he pursues, defends, conquers and rules (don’t know about the “conquers and rules” I like to think “assertive leader”). Rather than being a "nice" guy, he's a "good" guy - not a pushover but strong in his convictions, values and resolve. (Example: someone who can "man up") This is not dependant on his socio-economic status, but rather his willingness to embrace his God-given masculinity.

A lot of women like a man's man; because they are strong and offer something different and very valuable to the experience of being female. When a woman finds a man's man who is a "good man" instead of a "nice man" she gets to have the perks of being with a "bad boy" -the strength, toughness and masculinity, without having to actually be with a bad boy. It's an ideal situation."

Bob


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## SimplyAmorous

Oh Nice Guy, that was grand!!! I LOVED your reply - but I am a woman , so I don't count !!

Manning up, Womaning up, it is just about being TRUE to yourself, being assertive with your needs, wants , desires, not making apologies for how you feel, to fit in, look good, refusing to play the part of the chameleon to appease ANYONE'S approval- because you genuinely LIKE yourself -even if others may think you are "out of the box", a little weird, not natural, what ever. 

Generally -Assertively disagreeing outrightly against the grain is a healthy sign of the manning up philosophy at it's core, either that or you are an A -hole. I personally don't see you as an A-hole. 

My husband shall NEVER be a Poster boy for the Alpha Male.......but on the other hand....he has such an "I don't care attitude" about what others think of him, it really is quite amusing to me & I KNOW I find this very very attractive. 

Even though he is introverted, he is the type who would choose the farthest seat from the action, never raise his hand in class, and generally waits for people to talk to him 1st before he opens his mouth...but still you will NEVER find him pandering, brown nosing, no kissing up to what is expected in maleness to his fellow co-workers , or friends , for example. 

And he is not one to hang out with the guys, watch football , hunt , own a motorcycle with a tatoo on his arm that says "Beast"...plus he goes shopping with his wife, watches sappy Lifetime movies, even the Bachelor & Bachelorette , he helps the kids with thier homework, he even tagged along to a candle party 2 weeks ago with me -just caues of a vehicle situation & convenience. 

Truly, all he cares about is His family, providing, protecting - this is what he lives for. This is who he is , this is what matters to him. I do not see him sucking up, being a doormat or any such thing, he is very happy in his own skin. 

Those guys at work have taken stabs at him about ME wearing the pants in the family at times, he just laughs right along with them. One time they were telling him I need to cut his hair like all the other guys , he says back to the one .... "When you want to have sex with me, you can cut my hair anyway you want". 

He may be quiet, but if you ask him something, he says it LIKE IT IS, even if not really acceptable. One time the boss asked him a question, he answers "_____________" (can't remember the story now) -the boss says "YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!" my husband answers "but it is the truth" and the boss says ...."I KNOW, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!". You will always get an honest answer. There is a respect there for that. 

He also doesn't get mad too easily. But when he does, he will let you know .....this co-worker was really pi**ing him off one day, more than the usual ...........he walked up to him, got in his face, gave him the finger upside down, said to him "can you see this ", then he turned it up - and said "I'll turn it up!". Everyone got quiet. This was such a RARE thing. All those guys seen another side to my husband that day. 

I think it was one of the more memorable days at work -coming from him- but he showed them he HAS IT IN HIM , his boiling point is just alot lower than the average man. 

He has never been out to prove anything, and has no desire to start now. He genuinely LIKES himself and is content the way he is. He is not striving to conform to anyone, even me, I couldn't get him to be more aggressive , now could I ? He outright told me, that is not who he is, he IS a sensual lover, Not Mr Erotic. I can either accept it or bang my head against the wall. 

Willingly opening yourself up to some ridicule and speaking your mind in the face of opposition, how does one not respect that. Good for you Nice Guy ! :smthumbup:


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## Deejo

Self Determination Theory just doesn't translate as well, and doesn't evoke the same arc of behavior as does the phrase 'Man Up'.

My interest in emotional dynamics have taken me all over the map. I've learned some powerful stuff. Not all of it falls under the umbrella of man up.
To me there is a world of difference between being comfortable with who you are, and being uncomfortable that others won't like, or accept, who you are.

Particularly when framed against what you want. This is where the intrinsic and extrinsic stuff from self determination gets interesting.

If I want to meet new people, and forge new relationships with men, and intimate relationships with women, but believe that 'who I am' is a quiet, soft-spoken, home-body, that doesn't like to go out, is uncomfortable in social circumstances, cringes at the thought of conflict or rejection, and has no idea how to garner the attraction and interest of a woman, than I have a problem to solve. Which becomes more important? Being who I am or pursuing what I want?

To draw an easy contrast, I have been following the feminism thread. What is very clear to me ... is that what feminism IS, is not very clear to all of the individuals discussing what feminism is. It's different to different people.

Same with manning up.

For some it is intrinsic. It is who they are.

For others, it is what they do. It's geared toward extrinsic goals.

And at the same time how it is expressed or experienced by virtually any and every man consciously choosing to make the journey ... will be different.

It isn't one thing. The concept is a thing. There are distinct behaviors that one can commit, or omit based upon their focus; intrinsic versus extrinsic in expressing their idea of becoming less of a doormat, more assertive, repairing their relationship with their wife, getting laid more ... whatever.

You want to be an active and engaged father with your kids' education? Maybe you sit down and do homework with them. Maybe you attend PTA meetings, maybe you threaten them with physical violence if they don't do their homework. Point is, you are comfortable with, and believe you are making the appropriate choice for the circumstances, in how you express that desire or goal.

For me personally, the man up thing extends WAY beyond getting a woman to think your the cat's pajamas.

And quite specifically, sometimes manning up means cutting your partner loose.

I would never encourage anyone to be anything other than who they are ... unless who they are prevents them from getting to where they want to go.


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> NG, I occasionally get called a Man’s Man, both here in TAM with PMs and a few close female friends. It’s not a label I’d give myself and it’s not what I set out in life to be. But I kind of like the definition, especially this one from Urban Dictionary: Man's man
> 
> "A man who is strong and masculine; meaning he pursues, defends, conquers and rules (don’t know about the “conquers and rules” I like to think “assertive leader”). Rather than being a "nice" guy, he's a "good" guy - not a pushover but strong in his convictions, values and resolve. (Example: someone who can "man up") This is not dependant on his socio-economic status, but rather his willingness to embrace his God-given masculinity.
> 
> A lot of women like a man's man; because they are strong and offer something different and very valuable to the experience of being female. When a woman finds a man's man who is a "good man" instead of a "nice man" she gets to have the perks of being with a "bad boy" -the strength, toughness and masculinity, without having to actually be with a bad boy. It's an ideal situation."
> 
> Bob


I can appreciate that. Can't see the link right now from work though. But what you've written - I get it.

I expect my next chapter in my life to be much, much different.

I may never be a "bad boy" - but in a year I might be able to put you down on the ground fairly quickly thanks to what I'm learning in karate. Recently - a street festival. Just being aware to keep my DAMN hands out of my pockets. Little things.

Learning not to argue - and learning to just let things go. Letting my wife go.

The last 2 years have been hell. But right now - I think I'm going to have a fairly easy divorce. I'm basically done mourning. I'm sure as hell done fighting to hold on. Had I been getting divorced a year ago - I would have been paying some attorney way too much money - trying to get some degree of justice that I'll likely never see!

Justice - fairness - THOSE have been hard to let go of.

And in the end - I have few regrets. I had a good 15 years of marriage. Its just too bad my 17th anniversary is almost here!!!

I've never been called a Man's Man. Sounds nice - I'd be pumped. But I've had plenty of other compliments thrown my way lately - by a lot of really great people - men and women - here and elsewhere.


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## nice777guy

I heard one of my daughters tell the other to "man-up" - we were heading to a carnival - the younger one won't ride ANYTHING - which is a real buzzkill for the older one!

I can see where "man-up" is much easier to say to newbies than "Self-determinate man!" Much catchier! Easier to dance to.

I've wondered if changing my name to [email protected]$$ or something would give me more "cred" - but I embrace who I am and where I've been.


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## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh Nice Guy, that was grand!!! I LOVED your reply - but I am a woman , so I don't count !!
> 
> Willingly opening yourself up to some ridicule and speaking your mind in the face of opposition, how does one not respect that. Good for you Nice Guy ! :smthumbup:


Thank you. And from what you've written and shared - I have a lot of admiration for your husband - SA. No matter how "nice" he may be!


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> I would never encourage anyone to be anything other than who they are ... unless who they are prevents them from getting to where they want to go.


That is excellent, as so expected. Deejo... always the sound of reason, sanity, and the mightly balance - no matter the subject, you never fail. :smthumbup:


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## seeking sanity

nice777guy said:


> I've wondered if changing my name to [email protected]$$ or something would give me more "cred" - but I embrace who I am and where I've been.


Probably not needed. But you might want to change your profile photo.


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## Deejo

seeking sanity said:


> Probably not needed. But you might want to change your profile photo.


Ahh ... but the dichotomy of Gizmo is the essence of NG's point.

Just don't eat after midnight, dude ...


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Ahh ... but the dichotomy of Gizmo is the essence of NG's point.
> 
> Just don't eat after midnight, dude ...


And don't get me wet!!!


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> I can appreciate that. Can't see the link right now from work though. *But what you've written - I get it.*
> 
> I expect my next chapter in my life to be much, much different.
> 
> I may never be a "bad boy" - but in a year I might be able to put you down on the ground fairly quickly thanks to what I'm learning in karate. Recently - a street festival. Just being aware to keep my DAMN hands out of my pockets. Little things.
> 
> Learning not to argue - and learning to just let things go. Letting my wife go.
> 
> The last 2 years have been hell. But right now - I think I'm going to have a fairly easy divorce. I'm basically done mourning. I'm sure as hell done fighting to hold on. Had I been getting divorced a year ago - I would have been paying some attorney way too much money - trying to get some degree of justice that I'll likely never see!
> 
> Justice - fairness - THOSE have been hard to let go of.
> 
> And in the end - I have few regrets. I had a good 15 years of marriage. Its just too bad my 17th anniversary is almost here!!!
> 
> I've never been called a Man's Man. Sounds nice - I'd be pumped. But I've had plenty of other compliments thrown my way lately - by a lot of really great people - men and women - here and elsewhere.


:smthumbup:

But you do remain an enigma to me NG.


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## AFEH

You are most certainly on a new journey. I think on it as a journey of discovery! Mainly of ourselves. I do wish you well on that journey. You will be ok.


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## MEM2020

NG,
I am sad for you that your marriage has ended. I really think the bike rally thing was over the top. Her wanting to go without you - that would be a non-starter for anyone man or woman in a monogamous relationship. 

I think you have come a long way and generally will insist that a future partner follow the "golden rule" with you. And when you first came on here and posted how you were out to dinner and your W was ignoring you and texting on her phone I thought "uh oh - that is bad stuff". And you gently, patiently, firmly did everything you could to lead her back into the marriage. 

Sadly I think she is going to go have some wild sex with "bad boys" for a while. And the end result will be the realization that love heroin, and white powder heroin both have some ugly consequences:
- disease risk
- painful withdrawal/crashes
- increasing tolerance to standard dosing and ultimately 
- depression

I might have suggested trying an open marriage except the failure rate is so high it is not worth the effort. 

As for you. You will meet a decent person and re-marry. As for your ex wife. You will be sad as you watch her spiral. And you will buffer the kids as best you can because you are a good father. 



nice777guy said:


> A bit more Bob...
> 
> When I first came here - I was desparately trying to figure out how to save my marriage. Now - I'm trying to figure out how to be a better person and a stronger man and I'm letting her go...
> 
> I'm different. That's change...
> 
> I could say a few more things - I have a few thoughts in my head about how to drag you through the mud - but it wouldn't help me. I'd just be trying to win an argument!
> 
> And how's this for Manning Up...I don't CARE if my school teachers were women or my mother coddled me. I don't care if my Dad didn't spend time with me, explaining how the world works - take me under his wing, so to speak. And I truly don't care that maybe - somewhere - a woman or a minority male got a $500 grant or scholarship or that I never had a chance at because I'm a white man.
> 
> I pay my bills. I take care of my kids. I'm in the PTA. I'm learning to do a better job of staninding up for myself. I'm getting divorced - and I'm just fine with that.
> 
> Personal accountability. Manning up. Call it what you want. Love me or not. I am who I am - and that IS subject to change - but only on my terms. And I'm not going to blame some grumpy woman who burned her bra in 1970 - nor will I blame my parents or my soon to be ex-wife - for any of my problems or mistakes.
> 
> I also won't side with the men on an argument just because I have a penis - and I won't side with women just because I like them a bit better sometimes!
> 
> So - if you or anyone else wants to pick me apart - that's great. I'm wearing my big boy pants and I've put on my "serious" face! Obviously, I put this out here knowing I'd get flack from someone. And I can't say I'm surprised it was you that fired the first shot!
> 
> Thanks Bob. Your opinions are appreciated and noted...


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## MEM2020

Oh and one more thing. I have a lot of respect for you. I believe you handled an incredibly difficult situation with grace. There were times I thought you were way too patient. In hindsight I don't think that. There were times I thought you were way too accommodating. I no longer see it that way. I think you did it just right and while you may be sad, you won't regret not trying harder. 



nice777guy said:


> Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.
> 
> As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...
> 
> The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.
> 
> So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


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## Trenton

NG you know I loved your response but mostly I adore you for the same reason as I adore SA & Deejo...you try to really see things from both sides and come to your own conclusions. When you couple that with your intelligence and good looks, I've no idea why your wife turned out to not appreciate you. It takes all kinds. I've NO DOUBT that you will find another to grow old with and share your life with. You're the kind of guy that absolutely tempts me. Quite frankly, I think you've spent the last two years finding out who you are and you don't need to label it. I think that's really cool.


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## MEM2020

T,
Highly offended you didn't mention his sense of humor. When inclined he is without question the second funniest person on the board.




Trenton said:


> NG you know I loved your response but mostly I adore you for the same reason as I adore SA & Deejo...you try to really see things from both sides and come to your own conclusions. When you couple that with your intelligence and good looks, I've no idea why your wife turned out to not appreciate you. It takes all kinds. I've NO DOUBT that you will find another to grow old with and share your life with. You're the kind of guy that absolutely tempts me. Quite frankly, I think you've spent the last two years finding out who you are and you don't need to label it. I think that's really cool.


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## Kobo

Stop calling it "manning up˝and you'll be shocked at who agrees with the principles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Highly offended you didn't mention his sense of humor. When inclined he is without question the second funniest person on the board.


It's been mentioned many times in other threads. He's a riot. Agree with Trenton. This dude is awesome but then who wouldn't be being a karate master, bass guitar playing, Dyson vaccum wielding, goatee wearing bad azz with a sensitive side.


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## MEM2020

Bright,
Agree on all points. I am but a half step shy of offering him an outrageous dowery to wed my 21 year old daughter. 

That said I don't think he will accept my terms which are few in number but rather stark in tone:
- I have a no returns "no exceptions" policy
- There is NO WARRANTY PERIOD - bride comes "AS IS"
- I take no responsibility for the occassionally "batshet crazy" behavior of his future wife (dowery sized proportionally)





Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's been mentioned many times in other threads. He's a riot. Agree with Trenton. This dude is awesome but then who wouldn't be being a karate master, bass guitar playing, Dyson vaccum wielding, goatee wearing bad azz with a sensitive side.


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## nice777guy

Wasn't looking for a love fest - but thank you all.

Could have done without "wild sex with bad boys" there MEM!!! But appreciate everything else.

But as long as my kids are in no way exposed to it - and they haven't been directly exposed yet - I guess its truly none of my business. *Thank God!!!*

So - I'm assuming Deejo is the funniest?


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## BigBadWolf

nice777guy said:


> Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.
> 
> As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...
> 
> The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.
> 
> So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


To me "Manning up" is simply encouraging a man reading on this forum to realize it is *BOTH* his responsibility and privilege to be his own yardstick of his success. 

Whether the "responsbility" or the "privilege" needs to be emphasized, that of course depends on the situation at hand. 

Responsibility- in the form of the man recognizing the IMPERATIVE of standing up for himself even when there is a risk. (engaging in conflict, sh1t tests, proving physical/emotional/mental/financial strength, etc)

Privilege- in the form of recognizing the rewards of taking such a risk are not only deserved, but should even be expected. (Respect,sexual attraction-via hypergamy, ****iness, humor)

Not sure where in this is room for conformity.

But indeed "being yourself" and not worrying about being accepted by others is certainly the attitude that would encourage in every man.


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> Agree on all points. I am but a half step shy of offering him an outrageous dowery to wed my 21 year old daughter.
> 
> That said I don't think he will accept my terms which are few in number but rather stark in tone:
> - I have a no returns "no exceptions" policy
> - There is NO WARRANTY PERIOD - bride comes "AS IS"
> - I take no responsibility for the occassionally "batshet crazy" behavior of his future wife (dowery sized proportionally)


It's a little creepy that you would offer her to a soon to be 40 year old. Ya have a thing with pawning her off on dusty old farts dontcha? First Deejo and now this guy. Let her be with someone her own age. NG won't be jamming on his guitar for much longer. He's a hip replacement away from that pursuit ending. Or a tumble over the Dyson cord.


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## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's a little creepy that you would offer her to a soon to be 40 year old. Ya have a thing with pawning her off on dusty old farts dontcha? First Deejo and now this guy. Let her be with someone her own age. NG won't be jamming on his guitar for much longer. He's a hip replacement away from that pursuit ending. Or a tumble over the Dyson cord.


Figured the love fest wouldn't last long!

You people are nothing if not consistent!

Off topic, sarcastic, and argumentative.

That's why I keep coming back...


----------



## MEM2020

Bright,
I bitterly resent your interference in my attempts to initiate a May-October engagement for my eldest. She would benefit from NG's stability, maturity and most especially his patience. And such a union would give me at least of 50-50 shot at sane grandchildren. 




Therealbrighteyes said:


> It's a little creepy that you would offer her to a soon to be 40 year old. Ya have a thing with pawning her off on dusty old farts dontcha? First Deejo and now this guy. Let her be with someone her own age. NG won't be jamming on his guitar for much longer. He's a hip replacement away from that pursuit ending. Or a tumble over the Dyson cord.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> Bright,
> I bitterly resent your interference in my attempts to initiate a May-October engagement for my eldest. She would benefit from NG's stability, maturity and most especially his patience. And such a union would give me at least of 50-50 shot at sane grandchildren.


Just trying to save you some heartache, Mem. If NG hooked up with a 21 year old, he WOULD be dead by May and then you would have to start the recruiting process all over again.


----------



## MEM2020

I was hoping that the karate + a vitamin regimen + a life time supply of Xanax (which is included with the dowery) would allow him to survive for at least a decade.





Therealbrighteyes said:


> Just trying to save you some heartache, Mem. If NG hooked up with a 21 year old, he WOULD be dead by May and then you would have to start the recruiting process all over again.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

MEM11363 said:


> I was hoping that the karate + a vitamin regimen + a life time supply of Xanax (which is included with the dowery) would allow him to survive for at least a decade.


True but save the Xanax for your daughter. He's a Steelers fan afterall. She'll need it. :slap:


----------



## ren

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...
> 
> My husband shall NEVER be a Poster boy for the Alpha Male.......but on the other hand....he has such an "I don't care attitude" about what others think of him, it really is quite amusing to me & I KNOW I find this very very attractive.
> ...


I am almost exactly like your husband. Most humans are pack animals and lack sufficient individuality to recognize someone outside their system of social hierarchy. It confuse them when they notice I'm not playing along. It does sometimes get mistaken for a sort of "unmanly" timidness in various circumstances, which has caused problems of various sorts when people realize I'm not their beta or omega. Alphas typically just treat me as a peer once they realize I'm not after their role in the hierarchy but it can really bother anyone who is insecure or exceptionally pack oriented. For me "manning up" mostly just means being mindful of this and better demonstrating alpha behaviors when I'm being misidentified.


----------



## Deejo

Whoa ...

No 20 somethings for me ... although I have no doubt that both MEM and NG will raise bright, independent, thoughtful women, that will see right through this manning up crap.

I'm currently seeing an extraordinarily attractive and in-shape 47 year old. She is a serious spit-fire. Can't possibly end well, the crash and burn will undoubtedly be both magnificent and spectacular. I'm psyched.

On MEM's volatility scale of 1 to 5, she's a 7. It's like riding a rollercoaster on fire without a harness.

Were I 'just being myself' of 5 years ago, I would have run away from this woman screaming. Now we run around together screaming. It's fun.


----------



## MEM2020

I have one single litmus test for high volatility women. Just one. Can they apologize. That is it. Just that one. If they cannot - no dice. If they can - I buckle up and accept that it will be a wild ride. 






Deejo said:


> Whoa ...
> 
> No 20 somethings for me ... although I have no doubt that both MEM and NG will raise bright, independent, thoughtful women, that will see right through this manning up crap.
> 
> I'm currently seeing an extraordinarily attractive and in-shape 47 year old. She is a serious spit-fire. Can't possibly end well, the crash and burn will undoubtedly be both magnificent and spectacular. I'm psyched.
> 
> On MEM's volatility scale of 1 to 5, she's a 7. It's like riding a rollercoaster on fire without a harness.
> 
> Were I 'just being myself' of 5 years ago, I would have run away from this woman screaming. Now we run around together screaming. It's fun.


----------



## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> I have one single litmus test for high volatility women. Just one. Can they apologize. That is it. Just that one. If they cannot - no dice. If they can - I buckle up and accept that it will be a wild ride.


:smthumbup:


----------



## Trenton

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Highly offended you didn't mention his sense of humor. When inclined he is without question the second funniest person on the board.


I know...it's kickass but I was feeling muuuuuushy and forgot that he's hysterically funny for a moment.


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> :smthumbup:


NG,

She didn't apologize much, did she?

Did she apologize for the EA and other insults?


----------



## RandomDude

Manning up = Stand up for yourself!

Another saying... KISS!
Keep It Simple Stupid!


Sorry, but I tell myself that whenever I think too much! Which in my opinion, I think you're doing the same thing bro...


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> She didn't apologize much, did she?
> 
> Did she apologize for the EA and other insults?


She used to. Don't forget, we had a decent/good 15 years before the bottom fell out.

But recently? There were apologies - but if you repeat the behavior - then its obviously not a real apology.

Its been a a learning experience.


----------



## nice777guy

RandomDude said:


> Manning up = Stand up for yourself!
> 
> Another saying... KISS!
> Keep It Simple Stupid!
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I tell myself that whenever I think too much! Which in my opinion, I think you're doing the same thing bro...


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> She used to. Don't forget, we had a decent/good 15 years before the bottom fell out.
> 
> But recently? There were apologies - but if you repeat the behavior - then its obviously not a real apology.
> 
> Its been a a learning experience.


How old were you when you got married?


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> How old were you when you got married?


She was 23 - I was 22.

We'd known each other for 8+ years - dated for 4.

So now - I'm looking at being single for truly the first time in my adult life - at the age of 39! Most days I look forward to the adventures to come.

And if I'm smart - (serious face/sincerity here) - I'll stay away from any serious relationships for a year or so. Spend some time getting to know myself a bit better first. Pick up my guitar more. Shake some of this noise out of my head.

Plus, I"ll be a single parent 8 out of every 14 nights!


----------



## Triumph

nice777guy said:


> Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.
> 
> As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...
> 
> The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.
> 
> So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


Personally, I read a lot, from a lot of different authors. I go to Married man sex life and I absorb as much info as I can. I come to TAM and do the exact same thing. A lot of the info is going to be from the POV of the individual writer, and I understand that. Just because Joe Blow goes to the gym 5 days a week in an effort to man-up, doesnt mean I have to do the same. Simplified, but you get the jist.


----------



## Conrad

I asked for a reason.

I have several friends who went through an almost identical type of situation.

Good marriage for 15 or more years and then around the late thirties? She just flakes/freaks out.

"I didn't get a chance to do blah, blah, blah, blah...."

These are guys that were faithful. These are guys that were good providers and fathers.

I doubt they'd want to go "get naked" at a biker rally either. I seriously doubt they'd let their wife go alone.





nice777guy said:


> She was 23 - I was 22.
> 
> We'd known each other for 8+ years - dated for 4.
> 
> So now - I'm looking at being single for truly the first time in my adult life - at the age of 39! Most days I look forward to the adventures to come.
> 
> And if I'm smart - (serious face/sincerity here) - I'll stay away from any serious relationships for a year or so. Spend some time getting to know myself a bit better first. Pick up my guitar more. Shake some of this noise out of my head.
> 
> Plus, I"ll be a single parent 8 out of every 14 nights!


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> I asked for a reason.
> 
> I have several friends who went through an almost identical type of situation.
> 
> Good marriage for 15 or more years and then around the late thirties? She just flakes/freaks out.
> 
> "I didn't get a chance to do blah, blah, blah, blah...."
> 
> These are guys that were faithful. These are guys that were good providers and fathers.
> 
> I doubt they'd want to go "get naked" at a biker rally either. I seriously doubt they'd let their wife go alone.


I was already done by that point. 

Her Psych said she was regretting things she had missed in her youth. That she was never "really" single. Of course, neither was I - but I'm "nice" - right?


----------



## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> I was already done by that point.
> 
> Her Psych said she was regretting things she had missed in her youth. That she was never "really" single. Of course, neither was I - but I'm "nice" - right?


Well, the world won't treat her "adventurousness" kindly.

One of the friends I referenced is now happily married at 55 years of age and his ex (who left him) died about 5 years ago.

When we have unresolved issues, we do strange things.

I hope she gets to the bottom of it.

But, from what you've disclosed, that doesn't seem likely.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Of course, neither was I - but I'm "nice" - right?


No, you respected your commitment and in your own way staked your boundaries. When they were consistently pushed, you had your breaking point and were done. Your way of doing things is different than what is often talked about here but the result is the same. At the end of the day, you weren't getting respect, so you called it quits and you can walk away knowing you did what you needed to do. No shame in that whatsoever.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Well, the world won't treat her "adventurousness" kindly.
> 
> One of the friends I referenced is now happily married at 55 years of age and his ex (who left him) died about 5 years ago.
> 
> When we have unresolved issues, we do strange things.
> 
> I hope she gets to the bottom of it.
> 
> But, from what you've disclosed, that doesn't seem likely.


No - not likely at all. She's running away from things that will stay with her - blaming me for it all. 

Maybe - just maybe - when she can't blame me anymore - she'll have some time to look in the mirror and wonder why life still hurts so much.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, you respected your commitment and in your own way staked your boundaries. When they were consistently pushed, you had your breaking point and were done. Your way of doing things is different than what is often talked about here but the result is the same. At the end of the day, you weren't getting respect, so you called it quits and you can walk away knowing you did what you needed to do. No shame in that whatsoever.


Thanks...


----------



## NoIssues

nice777guy said:


> they want to fit in. they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> _*Doesnt sound like manning up to me. Quite the opposite*_
> 
> Is that really Manning Up?
> 
> _*Nope*_
> 
> If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> _*Right*_
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


_*Right*_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> Her Psych said she was regretting things she had missed in her youth. That she was never "really" single.


I never really felt like I was single either, meeting up at 15, I agree us women can DO this when we get older, *Mid Life Crisis *written all over that. I think everyone has one at some time or another. For me, I just looked at it more like the stuff "*WE*" missed , instead of the stuff "*I*" missed. 

She may regret this terribly once she sees what is out there, how easily she will get "used" - once she looks in the mirror and sees she made a horrendous mistake giving up a good man that loved her . Only TIME will tell the story. No regrets on your part. That is a beautiful thing. 



ren said:


> I am almost exactly like your husband. Most humans are pack animals and lack sufficient individuality to recognize someone outside their system of social hierarchy. It confuse them when they notice I'm not playing along. It does sometimes get mistaken for a sort of "unmanly" timidness in various circumstances, which has caused problems of various sorts when people realize I'm not their beta or omega. Alphas typically just treat me as a peer once they realize I'm not after their role in the hierarchy but it can really bother anyone who is insecure or exceptionall pack oriented. For me "manning up" mostly just means being mindful of this and better demonstrating alpha behaviors when I'm being misidentified.


I laughed when I read this, my husband would surely agree with the "Pack animals" comment, something he often says, when he sees something on the news or some drama playing out with my friends, anything that stirs stupidity among men, he will non-chalantly mutter ....."I hate people"- his hallmark saying. Of coarse only our family & his close friends would hear him say this. 

I know I get more bent out of shape if someone doesn't "like" me. He is GRAND for reminding me of their obvious faults when I get slighted or someone judges me - for just being "ME", a little out of the box and too open for my own good at times, almost welcoming judgement. Where he doesn't put himself out there -cause he just doesn't care, I Do, cause I find people fasinating & enjoy the challenge. 

At the end of the day though, I don't pander to anyone, if they don't like me, it may bug me for a time, but I get over it, it is no loss in this life. Lots of different people in this world, that is what makes it so darn interesting.


----------



## Janie

Lon said:


> yeah, it really is one of those intangible things - the more you try the more you can't get it. Like a finger trap for your virility. Even the guys telling other men on here to man up are breaking their own rules by simply participating in that way, the real man wouldn't bother coming here in the first place - a real man would be there if his bro was hurting, but wouldn't put anonymous people on a forum on that level.
> 
> I dislike conformity, yet can't reject it since its just another form of conformity. I hate that there are so few patterns which always emerge on this site, no matter how unique everyone that comes on here thinks they are. I despise the term "leader" because that just means you've been MORE successful at conformity. I hate the term "follower" since unless it is meant in the religious sense it is seen as inferior. Anyways, for the sake of my masculity, those that don't reply to my comment you can all just F off, and those that do you can too. jk of course


Was just browsing old posts and stumbed unto this! OMG - you got my funny bone. I want to read more of your writing!!


----------



## Janie

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh Nice Guy, that was grand!!! I LOVED your reply - but I am a woman , so I don't count !!
> 
> Manning up, Womaning up, it is just about being TRUE to yourself, being assertive with your needs, wants , desires, not making apologies for how you feel, to fit in, look good, refusing to play the part of the chameleon to appease ANYONE'S approval- because you genuinely LIKE yourself -even if others may think you are "out of the box", a little weird, not natural, what ever.
> 
> Generally -Assertively disagreeing outrightly against the grain is a healthy sign of the manning up philosophy at it's core, either that or you are an A -hole. I personally don't see you as an A-hole.
> 
> My husband shall NEVER be a Poster boy for the Alpha Male.......but on the other hand....he has such an "I don't care attitude" about what others think of him, it really is quite amusing to me & I KNOW I find this very very attractive.
> 
> Even though he is introverted, he is the type who would choose the farthest seat from the action, never raise his hand in class, and generally waits for people to talk to him 1st before he opens his mouth...but still you will NEVER find him pandering, brown nosing, no kissing up to what is expected in maleness to his fellow co-workers , or friends , for example.
> 
> And he is not one to hang out with the guys, watch football , hunt , own a motorcycle with a tatoo on his arm that says "Beast"...plus he goes shopping with his wife, watches sappy Lifetime movies, even the Bachelor & Bachelorette , he helps the kids with thier homework, he even tagged along to a candle party 2 weeks ago with me -just caues of a vehicle situation & convenience.
> 
> Truly, all he cares about is His family, providing, protecting - this is what he lives for. This is who he is , this is what matters to him. I do not see him sucking up, being a doormat or any such thing, he is very happy in his own skin.
> 
> Those guys at work have taken stabs at him about ME wearing the pants in the family at times, he just laughs right along with them. One time they were telling him I need to cut his hair like all the other guys , he says back to the one .... "When you want to have sex with me, you can cut my hair anyway you want".
> 
> He may be quiet, but if you ask him something, he says it LIKE IT IS, even if not really acceptable. One time the boss asked him a question, he answers "_____________" (can't remember the story now) -the boss says "YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!" my husband answers "but it is the truth" and the boss says ...."I KNOW, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THAT!!". You will always get an honest answer. There is a respect there for that.
> 
> He also doesn't get mad too easily. But when he does, he will let you know .....this co-worker was really pi**ing him off one day, more than the usual ...........he walked up to him, got in his face, gave him the finger upside down, said to him "can you see this ", then he turned it up - and said "I'll turn it up!". Everyone got quiet. This was such a RARE thing. All those guys seen another side to my husband that day.
> 
> I think it was one of the more memorable days at work -coming from him- but he showed them he HAS IT IN HIM , his boiling point is just alot lower than the average man.
> 
> He has never been out to prove anything, and has no desire to start now. He genuinely LIKES himself and is content the way he is. He is not striving to conform to anyone, even me, I couldn't get him to be more aggressive , now could I ? He outright told me, that is not who he is, he IS a sensual lover, Not Mr Erotic. I can either accept it or bang my head against the wall.
> 
> Willingly opening yourself up to some ridicule and speaking your mind in the face of opposition, how does one not respect that. Good for you Nice Guy ! :smthumbup:


I think I just fell in love with your husband.


----------



## Alice748

I heard one of my daughters tell the other to "man-up" - we were heading to a carnival - the younger one won't ride ANYTHING - which is a real buzzkill for the older one!

I can see where "man-up" is much easier to say to newbies than "Self-determinate man!" Much catchier! Easier to dance to.

I've wondered if changing my name to [email protected]$$ or something would give me more "cred" - but I embrace who I am and where I've been.


----------



## Janie

Deejo said:


> Whoa ...
> 
> No 20 somethings for me ... although I have no doubt that both MEM and NG will raise bright, independent, thoughtful women, that will see right through this manning up crap.
> 
> I'm currently seeing an extraordinarily attractive and in-shape 47 year old. She is a serious spit-fire. Can't possibly end well, the crash and burn will undoubtedly be both magnificent and spectacular. I'm psyched.
> 
> On MEM's volatility scale of 1 to 5, she's a 7. It's like riding a rollercoaster on fire without a harness.
> 
> Were I 'just being myself' of 5 years ago, I would have run away from this woman screaming. Now we run around together screaming. It's fun.


Now that is seriously one of the funniest things I've EVER read!!!! roflmao!!


----------



## Lon

Janie said:


> Was just browsing old posts and stumbed unto this! OMG - you got my funny bone. I want to read more of your writing!!


Yay! I win the approval of a pretty lady! Aw crap  do you see what you did? Thanks, you just helped set me back on my [email protected] recovery process.


----------



## Deejo

Lon said:


> Yay! I win the approval of a pretty lady! Aw crap  do you see what you did? Thanks, you just helped set me back on my [email protected] recovery process.


:lol: That is funny.


----------



## nice777guy

Lon said:


> Yay! I win the approval of a pretty lady! Aw crap  do you see what you did? Thanks, you just helped set me back on my [email protected] recovery process.


It actually hits a bit too close to home to be TOO funny...



Pretty girls can throw us off track way too easily sometimes!

Anyone know of a good monastery in the Midwest? Maybe one that's not TOO strict. Maybe one with Wi-Fi that allows laptops and iPhones? If they could just somehow block any interaction with women...


----------



## Lon

nice777guy said:


> It actually hits a bit too close to home to be TOO funny...
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty girls can throw us off track way too easily sometimes!
> 
> Anyone know of a good monastery in the Midwest? Maybe one that's not TOO strict. Maybe one with Wi-Fi that allows laptops and iPhones? If they could just somehow block any interaction with women...


yep, like a couple other commenters on here, my words often have a personal meaning beyond just sounding funny. However to Janie, I did mean it to be a humorous reply...

I went back and read it and I can sometimes see why people think I am so serious... however I often find myself laughing insanely harder rereading my own comments than any others I usually read. Is that healthy?

As to being off track, I already was - have a date tonight with a pretty lady who seems trying really hard to win MY approval for once (maybe a little too desperately though, I'm a little scared )


----------



## Janie

roflmao.

men.


----------



## Janie

Lon said:


> However to Janie, I did mean it to be a humorous reply...
> 
> I went back and read it and I can sometimes see why people think I am so serious... however I often find myself laughing insanely harder rereading my own comments than any others I usually read. Is that healthy?


I often assume people are being humorous rather than serious - can get one in trouble also.

I was seriously laughing out loud when I read your response.


----------



## Trenton

Janie said:


> I often assume people are being humorous rather than serious - can get one in trouble also.
> 
> I was seriously laughing out loud when I read your response.


Janie, I just want to say (and I don't think NG will mind the hijack) that I think you are stunningly beautiful in your avi.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Janie, I just want to say (and I don't think NG will mind the hijack) that I think you are stunningly beautiful in your avi.


Mind? I ENCOURAGE girl on girl flirting!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> Mind? I ENCOURAGE girl on girl flirting!


Simmer down NG.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Simmer down NG.


Don't get upset. I'm sure they'd flirt with you too if you'd just post a pic!


----------



## Trenton

I've already seen her as she doesn't play hard to get on Facebook, NG! :rofl:

She's a stunner, of course.

I really didn't expect people on this board to be attractive. How f'd up is that of me?!?!


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> I've already seen her as she doesn't play hard to get on Facebook, NG! :rofl:
> 
> She's a stunner, of course.
> 
> *I really didn't expect people on this board to be attractive. How f'd up is that of me?!?!*


That's pretty bad! So basically - YOU thought - only ugly people have marriage problems?

Janie - find someone else. You're far too good for "T"!!!


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> That's pretty bad! So basically - YOU thought - only ugly people have marriage problems?
> 
> Janie - find someone else. You're far too good for "T"!!!


I don't know why I assumed it really. Haha


----------



## Arnold

nice777guy said:


> I was already done by that point.
> 
> Her Psych said she was regretting things she had missed in her youth. That she was never "really" single. Of course, neither was I - but I'm "nice" - right?


Late thirties? Womens' estrogen levels go down while their testosterone remains the same. Their sex drives go through the roof and they want strange ****.

I read this on a website, "Women's Infidelity" and the e-book, as well. Sounds like it may be true.


----------



## Janie

nice777guy said:


> Mind? I ENCOURAGE girl on girl flirting!


Girl on girl flirting... I was one of the girls... and I MISSED IT????

That will teach me to leave dangling threads... 

Trenton,
It is ironic that you would comment on my avatar because it was yours that inspired me!

As I lurked, I was drawn to your posts because your avatar was you (well... it used to be) and it seemed more 'real'. (I know, kinda weird...) But, with anonymous forums, it seems like people can pretend to be whatever they want. But, you showed you. It was unique and caught my attention. 

And if I may say - your appearance radiates youth, energy and confidence - quite the stunner.

To top it off, I've truly enjoyed your writing, ideas and perspective.


----------



## Trenton

Janie said:


> Girl on girl flirting... I was one of the girls... and I MISSED IT????
> 
> That will teach me to leave dangling threads...
> 
> Trenton,
> It is ironic that you would comment on my avatar because it was yours that inspired me!
> 
> As I lurked, I was drawn to your posts because your avatar was you (well... it used to be) and it seemed more 'real'. (I know, kinda weird...) But, with anonymous forums, it seems like people can pretend to be whatever they want. But, you showed you. It was unique and caught my attention.
> 
> And if I may say - your appearance radiates youth, energy and confidence - quite the stunner.
> 
> To top it off, I've truly enjoyed your writing, ideas and perspective.


Ooooh I could get used to this girl on girl flirting thing! Thank you for your compliments.


----------



## Lon

Trenton said:


> Ooooh I could get used to this girl on girl flirting thing! Thank you for your compliments.


see, it feels pretty damn good to get a compliment from a lady don't it? (of which I got many on my date tonight, and it felt really, really good, nevermind me I'm just high on new relationship endorphins)


----------



## Trenton

Lon said:


> see, it feels pretty damn good to get a compliment from a lady don't it? (of which I got many on my date tonight, and it felt really, really good, nevermind me I'm just high on new relationship endorphins)


Congrats! I'm happy for you, she must be a lucky lady (Look!--another compliment from a lady!)

I'm awake in the middle of the night on the I have to give a really important speech tomorrow endorphin's


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Posted this on the Feminism thread in the women's lounge - but wanted to share it here as well.
> 
> As always - welcome any thoughts - debates - etc...
> 
> The Manning Up - in the Men's Clubhouse.
> 
> A lot of it seems like old fashioned conformity to me. People - like me - come here - wounded - looking for answers. Then they find a pretty good group of guys - with mostly pretty good advice. AND - they want to fit in.
> 
> So - instead of being overly "nice" to their wives, they start trying to conform to this group of guys on the internet.
> 
> Is that really Manning Up? I'm not so sure. If I can't tell a bunch of strangers on the internet that I disagree with them - I'll NEVER stand a chance with a real live woman - right?
> 
> To me - Manning Up - might be to actually attend one of these PTA meetings - and not just follow them on Facebook. Or - to just be myself and not worry about which "groups" will or won't accept me!


Back to your original post, I don't think manning up can really be something that is learned on a web site, unless it is just looked at as a few pointers to remind yourself of what is already inside you.

Manning up is a solitary journey. A life long process that doesn't work too well in today's society, with social media and political correctness. We learn our internal code of manhood through the situations that arise. Not through conforming, being successful with women, buying a motorcycle or getting tatoos.

To me, its about self-efficacy. Your belief in your own ability to make the right decisions affects how you relate to your marriage, career, friendships and every aspect of your life. Then its about the courage to stay true to those core beliefs, despite the prevailing opinions of others. It also includes knowing our situational boundaries, so we know ahead of time when it is best to compromise.

I think it also includes having a goal oriented outlook on life, so you stay true to your own inner road map. What kind of person do you want to be today? Tomorrow? And five years from now? How does the current situation fit into this goal? If it means being involved in the PTA, then do it. It often takes courage to follow this inner road map, and I think many of us give up on trying, especially in marriage.

In saying that, I'm not suggesting that manning up is a selfish concept. Our goals merge with others in marriage, friendships, and work. But we don't let consensus keep us from doing the right thing.

In my own personal journey, I learned about manning up through feeling like a failure through childhood. Its not a good thing to be a sensitive, brainy kid in a family within a close-knit drug sub-culture. My dad joked that I might as well wear a shirt that said "Everlast", because I was always at the receiving end of someone's fist in school. I sometimes think that if it weren't for a close, childhood girlfriend who believed that I could be better than that, I would've been just like him. She was wise beyond her years, and always told me to keep my mind focused on where I wanted to be as a grown man. Its funny, once that seed gets planted, it really doesn't go away.


----------



## nice777guy

Halien said:


> Back to your original post, I don't think manning up can really be something that is learned on a web site, unless it is just looked at as a few pointers to remind yourself of what is already inside you.
> 
> Manning up is a solitary journey. A life long process that doesn't work too well in today's society, with social media and political correctness. We learn our internal code of manhood through the situations that arise. Not through conforming, being successful with women, buying a motorcycle or getting tatoos.
> 
> To me, its about self-efficacy. Your belief in your own ability to make the right decisions affects how you relate to your marriage, career, friendships and every aspect of your life. Then its about the courage to stay true to those core beliefs, despite the prevailing opinions of others. It also includes knowing our situational boundaries, so we know ahead of time when it is best to compromise.
> 
> I think it also includes having a goal oriented outlook on life, so you stay true to your own inner road map. What kind of person do you want to be today? Tomorrow? And five years from now? How does the current situation fit into this goal? If it means being involved in the PTA, then do it. It often takes courage to follow this inner road map, and I think many of us give up on trying, especially in marriage.
> 
> In saying that, I'm not suggesting that manning up is a selfish concept. Our goals merge with others in marriage, friendships, and work. But we don't let consensus keep us from doing the right thing.
> 
> In my own personal journey, I learned about manning up through feeling like a failure through childhood. Its not a good thing to be a sensitive, brainy kid in a family within a close-knit drug sub-culture. My dad joked that I might as well wear a shirt that said "Everlast", because I was always at the receiving end of someone's fist in school. I sometimes think that if it weren't for a close, childhood girlfriend who believed that I could be better than that, I would've been just like him. She was wise beyond her years, and always told me to keep my mind focused on where I wanted to be as a grown man. Its funny, once that seed gets planted, it really doesn't go away.


I know you said its "solitary" - but help me out.

Last week in the court mandated Parenting class - required as part of our divorce - we were told that we needed time to "unpack our baggage." WTF does that even mean?

I feel like I'm either supposed to go out into nature - do my own Walden kind of thing - but of course I have to keep my job and continue to be the best Dad I can be. 

Or I have this image of nights spent alone in my bedroom - studying - reading - stacks of library books - journaling - etc., Waiting for some kind of inspiration to strike - some vision to appear!

Where does a person begin?

Some of my baggage - co-dependency - I've done some reading on - made some improvements. But I really won't KNOW until I'm tested by another relationship.

Another thing I realize - if you told me that tomorrow could be MY day - anything I choose - I wouldnt' know where to start. My life has been so focused on my wife and my kids - I don't know what I want for myself any more.

So - do I go to the woods? Get a stack of books? Or maybe I take the books into the woods? Bang on drums and howl at the moon?

But - "unpack my bags"? :scratchhead:


----------



## ManDup

Kobo said:


> Stop calling it "manning up˝and you'll be shocked at who agrees with the principles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But... But... what's to become of me?


----------



## ManDup

nice777guy said:


> I know you said its "solitary" - but help me out.
> 
> Last week in the court mandated Parenting class - required as part of our divorce - we were told that we needed time to "unpack our baggage." WTF does that even mean?
> 
> I feel like I'm either supposed to go out into nature - do my own Walden kind of thing - but of course I have to keep my job and continue to be the best Dad I can be.
> 
> Or I have this image of nights spent alone in my bedroom - studying - reading - stacks of library books - journaling - etc., Waiting for some kind of inspiration to strike - some vision to appear!
> 
> Where does a person begin?
> 
> Some of my baggage - co-dependency - I've done some reading on - made some improvements. But I really won't KNOW until I'm tested by another relationship.
> 
> Another thing I realize - if you told me that tomorrow could be MY day - anything I choose - I wouldnt' know where to start. My life has been so focused on my wife and my kids - I don't know what I want for myself any more.
> 
> So - do I go to the woods? Get a stack of books? Or maybe I take the books into the woods? Bang on drums and howl at the moon?
> 
> But - "unpack my bags"? :scratchhead:


I think by baggage, therapists usually mean past wrongs that have happened to us that we haven't forgiven yet, so we carry them around in bags, waiting for the next innocent victim to peek in. You don't strike me as much of a grudge-holder. 

But what you do need is to answer those questions yourself, and learn to be comfortable with taking the lead in your own life at the very least. It's uncomfortable when you've been led around most of your life, but ultimately it's freeing. Then once you've learned to lead your own life, never stop. If someone comes along that wants to ride along or parallel it, that's good, but never let yourself be dominated again. "I don't know, what do you want to do?"


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> I know you said its "solitary" - but help me out.
> 
> Last week in the court mandated Parenting class - required as part of our divorce - we were told that we needed time to "unpack our baggage." WTF does that even mean?
> 
> I feel like I'm either supposed to go out into nature - do my own Walden kind of thing - but of course I have to keep my job and continue to be the best Dad I can be.
> 
> Or I have this image of nights spent alone in my bedroom - studying - reading - stacks of library books - journaling - etc., Waiting for some kind of inspiration to strike - some vision to appear!
> 
> Where does a person begin?
> 
> Some of my baggage - co-dependency - I've done some reading on - made some improvements. But I really won't KNOW until I'm tested by another relationship.
> 
> Another thing I realize - if you told me that tomorrow could be MY day - anything I choose - I wouldnt' know where to start. My life has been so focused on my wife and my kids - I don't know what I want for myself any more.
> 
> So - do I go to the woods? Get a stack of books? Or maybe I take the books into the woods? Bang on drums and howl at the moon?
> 
> But - "unpack my bags"? :scratchhead:


Well, what I meant was that nobody can tell you what manning up means for you. Others can give clues, but only you know your inner self. To be honest, though, I was lost in a very similar fog as you, when it comes to marriage. 

As an example of this solitary aspect of it, one that means alot to me was coming to the place where I realized that I didn't have to win every argument, particularly those that hurt the marriage. It was only through going through such a situation that you can learn lessons from it. When I was asked to move into management as a young man, I agreed on the condition that my family and integrity came first. The recipe has worked so far.

But like you, I lost myself for quite a few years in marriage. It was always about the next depressive cycle for my wife, overcoming the loss of loved ones, just trying to keep her from wanting to die.

I'm unpacking my bags now, too. Trying to decide if our marriage is gonna make it, and waking up to the notion of thinking about what I want in life. I did come to the place where I accept that if we can't make it work out, then I'm not making any bets on what I would do.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> So - do I go to the woods? Get a stack of books? Or maybe I take the books into the woods? Bang on drums and howl at the moon?
> 
> But - "unpack my bags"? :scratchhead:


Grab a six pack and just watch a few movies. 

I was very intrigued by the 'personal code' thing and the stereotype of the man's man in movies.

Best recommendation I can make:

High Noon with Gary Cooper

I watched a bunch of movies with Yul Brynner and Charles Bronson. I'm not joking. Wasn't looking to emulate them, but these kind of guys play very distinct roles about men that have their own 'code' and that is all they need - regardless of who agrees with it.

Invitation to a Gunfighter

Magnificent Seven

DeathWish

The Mechanic

and for good measure, watch The Expendables. This movie will raise your testosterone by 100 points by the time the credits roll.


----------



## Halien

Deejo said:


> Grab a six pack and just watch a few movies.
> 
> I was very intrigued by the 'personal code' thing and the stereotype of the man's man in movies.
> 
> Best recommendation I can make:
> 
> High Noon with Gary Cooper
> 
> I watched a bunch of movies with Yul Brynner and Charles Bronson. I'm not joking. Wasn't looking to emulate them, but these kind of guys play very distinct roles about men that have their own 'code' and that is all they need - regardless of who agrees with it.
> 
> Invitation to a Gunfighter
> 
> Magnificent Seven
> 
> DeathWish
> 
> The Mechanic
> 
> and for good measure, watch The Expendables. This movie will raise your testosterone by 100 points by the time the credits roll.


Just don't hang around anyone like my brother, who used his own tried and tested approach to 'helping' me man up. First, drink said beer, but skip the movies. With me by his side, oblivious, brother approaches large group of tough guys bearing letter jackets from a football team in another city, then points to me and says, "This guy says you are all a bunch of pansies!"

His approach was roughly equated to manning up through completely tearing you apart, into shreds. Highly exhilarating if you are a really fast runner.


----------



## nice777guy

Have seen High Noon. Totally get it.

Tend to prefer Clint Eastwood to Bronson. Gran Torino - Unforgiven - incredible movies. Keep thinking I need to rent some old Chuck Norris films. Watched "Enter the Dragon" not long ago - Bruce Lee was just awesome - really had a presence to him - in addition to his amazing physical skills.


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> Have seen High Noon. Totally get it.
> 
> Tend to prefer Clint Eastwood to Bronson. Gran Torino - Unforgiven - incredible movies. Keep thinking I need to rent some old Chuck Norris films. Watched "Enter the Dragon" not long ago - Bruce Lee was just awesome - really had a presence to him - in addition to his amazing physical skills.


Have to say that "Man on Fire" with Denzel Washington was one of my favorite tough guy movies. Actually have a friend who moved to this area due to the kidnapping that is going on in that part of Mexico.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Skip the movie and go kill wild animals with your bare hands. Only sissies watch movies.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Skip the movie and go kill wild animals with your bare hands. Only sissies watch movies.


Good idea. On my way to the petting zoo right now...


----------



## Halien

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Skip the movie and go kill wild animals with your bare hands. Only sissies watch movies.


Are we allowed to use hand sanitizer? Can we substitute teddy bears for the real animals to keep all the yucky stuff off our hands?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Halien said:


> Are we allowed to use hand sanitizer? Can we substitute teddy bears for the real animals to keep all the yucky stuff off our hands?


That's NG's call as he's the one who wants to be more manly. If that means tearing the head off the Charmin bear and using Ed Hardy sanitizer, then so be it.


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## nice777guy

No hand sanitizer. In fact - no more bathing. 

After we kill the animals, we eat them raw!


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> No hand sanitizer. In fact - no more bathing.
> 
> After we kill the animals, we eat them raw!


Then crawl in to their body cavities for warmth. A real man would never use a duvet.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Then crawl in to their body cavities for warmth. A real man would never use a duvet.


:smthumbup:

And do the same to any man who ever doubts my manliness! Kill him - eat his insides - and make a freakin' coat out of him!


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## nice777guy

Also going to start sending lewd pictures and suggestive texts to every woman I know!


----------



## Janie

nice777guy said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> And do the same to any man who ever doubts my manliness! Kill him - eat his insides - and make a freakin' coat out of him!


:rofl:


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

All kidding aside, are you familiar with the Eagle Scouts? After years of dedication, hard work and foregoing what many of their friends do, they have one final project to complete and it has to be done before their 18th birthday, no second chances. The project has to be pre-approved by their Scoutmaster to make certain it is difficult enough for their abilities. A friend of mine built a bridge. It was a suspension bridge in a nature sanctuary, the previous one having been washed away during a hurricane. He had to complete this bridge all by himself, the only help being the original delivery of the supplies. He spent nearly a year researching/ planning/mapping and learning how suspension bridges work, what load they can bear, figuring out what he would need, etc. This was a bridge that would be over a small bayou and crossed by thousands of people a year. It took him the entire summer in the Houston heat to complete and he camped out in the sanctuary in a tent, as that was required. Solitude and self reliance. It was misery and agony oftentimes but he finished it. It had to be surveyed by an engineering firm and if it didn't pass, he wouldn't have gotten his Eagle Scout designation. It did and he became an Eagle Scout. His sense of pride is enormous and what he learned was to continue to rely on himself, make no excuses, take pride in your work, follow through with your commitments and above all, be the best man you can be. 
Go build your bridge.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> All kidding aside, are you familiar with the Eagle Scouts? After years of dedication, hard work and foregoing what many of their friends do, they have one final project to complete and it has to be done before their 18th birthday, no second chances. The project has to be pre-approved by their Scoutmaster to make certain it is difficult enough for their abilities. A friend of mine built a bridge. It was a suspension bridge in a nature sanctuary, the previous one having been washed away during a hurricane. He had to complete this bridge all by himself, the only help being the original delivery of the supplies. He spent nearly a year researching/ planning/mapping and learning how suspension bridges work, what load they can bear, figuring out what he would need, etc. This was a bridge that would be over a small bayou and crossed by thousands of people a year. It took him the entire summer in the Houston heat to complete and he camped out in the sanctuary in a tent, as that was required. Solitude and self reliance. It was misery and agony oftentimes but he finished it. It had to be surveyed by an engineering firm and if it didn't pass, he wouldn't have gotten his Eagle Scout designation. It did and he became an Eagle Scout. His sense of pride is enormous and what he learned was to continue to rely on himself, make no excuses, take pride in your work, follow through with your commitments and above all, be the best man you can be.
> Go build your bridge.


I only did scouts for a couple of years - but I know how hard a lot of those kids worked. That's quite an accomplishment! Both the bridge and the designation.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> I only did scouts for a couple of years - but I know how hard a lot of those kids worked. That's quite an accomplishment! Both the bridge and the designation.


You missed my point. Go find YOUR challenge and get working on it.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You missed my point. Go find YOUR challenge and get working on it.


You're missing MY point. 

I'm still trying to figure out what my challenge is...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> You're missing MY point.
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out what my challenge is...


What do you admire? If you could not fail (besides rock star) what would you really do? What makes you smile? What do you dream about at night? What are you passionate about? What makes you angry? What makes you laugh? What do you gravitate towards?

You don't have to literally answer them here but if you can spend some time pondering this and writing it down, you will get to a point where your bridge is possible.


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> What do you admire? If you could not fail (besides rock star) what would you really do? What makes you smile? What do you dream about at night? What are you passionate about? What makes you angry? What makes you laugh? What do you gravitate towards?
> 
> You don't have to literally answer them here but if you can spend some time pondering this and writing it down, you will get to a point where your bridge is possible.


Gotcha...thanks.


----------



## AFEH

NG do you know you come across as a tyre kicker as far as manning up is concerned? Two years, over 3,000 posts, yet what have you integrated into your life from a manning up point of view? To me it seems like zero, nada. Yet here you are, still kicking tyres. Why not just drop the whole thing, just let the whole manning up thing go. Forget about it and move on.

With the loss of you’re marriage, you’ve lost probably the major part of your raison d'être, your very reason for existing as a person. When young some of us have massively long term dreams and plans. In some cases these really are the “Till Death Us Do Part” plans. That’s gone buddy. That dream and those plans are dead and gone.

And so you are flaffing about in the wind. It’s a bummer but it’s also normal and natural. You need a new dream and new plans. A new “big focus” in life. It will come to you but it will take time. May be this time round if you haven’t done so already literally write down the dreams and plans you have for your daughters. Your own personal plan will come but it will take time. Meanwhile it’s a case of treading water, consolidating what you have and making it safe and secure, ready for when you are once again prepared to take new risks, to be vulnerable again with new dreams and new plans.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> NG do you know you come across as a tyre kicker as far as manning up is concerned? Two years, over 3,000 posts, yet what have you integrated into your life from a manning up point of view? To me it seems like zero, nada. Yet here you are, still kicking tyres. Why not just drop the whole thing, just let the whole manning up thing go. Forget about it and move on.
> 
> With the loss of you’re marriage, you’ve lost probably the major part of your raison d'être, your very reason for existing as a person. When young some of us have massively long term dreams and plans. In some cases these really are the “Till Death Us Do Part” plans. That’s gone buddy. That dream and those plans are dead and gone.
> 
> And so you are flaffing about in the wind. It’s a bummer but it’s also normal and natural. You need a new dream and new plans. A new “big focus” in life. It will come to you but it will take time. May be this time round if you haven’t done so already literally write down the dreams and plans you have for your daughters. Your own personal plan will come but it will take time. Meanwhile it’s a case of treading water, consolidating what you have and making it safe and secure, ready for when you are once again prepared to take new risks, to be vulnerable again with new dreams and new plans.


He's the Eagle Scout in my example. He had it in him all along and doesn't need to play games/tricks/manipulations that many men here deems necessary apparently. Why is that? 
He'll be just fine, pray for the others though Bob.


----------



## AFEH

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He doesn't have to "man up". He's the Eagle Scout in my example. He had it in him all along and doesn't need to play games/tricks/manipulations that every other man here deems necessary apparently. Notice he isn't the one here every day screaming what a man he is? Why is that?
> He'll be just fine, pray for the others though Bob.


Don't know why you think he needs wet nursing.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Don't know why you think he needs wet nursing.


You will never get it will you? You dislike him for his "weakness" yet you talked about suicide and what pain you toiled in. Real gut wrenching pain and understandable. He showed you compassion, kindness and humanity. The fact that you cannot show compassion towards him rather than mocking and showing oozing disdain speaks volumes to me. He's a bigger man than most, that's for sure.


----------



## AFEH

You are way too prejudiced. So much so you see things that aren’t even there.


----------



## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> And so you are flaffing about in the wind. It’s a bummer but it’s also normal and natural. You need a new dream and new plans. A new “big focus” in life. It will come to you but it will take time. May be this time round if you haven’t done so already literally write down the dreams and plans you have for your daughters. Your own personal plan will come but it will take time. Meanwhile it’s a case of treading water, consolidating what you have and making it safe and secure, ready for when you are once again prepared to take new risks, to be vulnerable again with new dreams and new plans.


:iagree:

Just stop saying "wet nursing"...alright? Sounds very wrong.


----------



## nice777guy

And - while I'm at it...



AFEH said:


> NG do you know you come across as a tyre kicker as far as manning up is concerned?


Agreed. I overanalyze.



AFEH said:


> Two years, over 3,000 posts, yet what have you integrated into your life from a manning up point of view? To me it seems like zero, nada. Yet here you are, still kicking tyres.


Disagree. Changes have been subtle. No longer have a relationship to test some of the theories on - but my boundaries are stronger than they've been and continue to strengthen.



> Why not just drop the whole thing, just let the whole manning up thing go. Forget about it and move on.


I agree...somewhat. For me, its more about finding myself right now.



> With the loss of you’re marriage, you’ve lost probably the major part of your raison d'être, your very reason for existing as a person. When young some of us have massively long term dreams and plans. In some cases these really are the “Till Death Us Do Part” plans. That’s gone buddy. That dream and those plans are dead and gone.


Nail on the head. Time to start moving on...


----------



## nice777guy

Therealbrighteyes said:


> He's the Eagle Scout in my example. He had it in him all along and doesn't need to play games/tricks/manipulations that many men here deems necessary apparently.


As always - thanks RBE. And I really do a appreciate your Eagle Scout metaphor (right word?).

Bob and I just have different ways of seeing things.

If everyone here saw things the same way I did, it would be like chatting with myself! And I come here because I already talk to myself enough as it is!!!


----------



## Janie

AFEH said:


> And so you are flaffing about in the wind. It’s a bummer but it’s also normal and natural. You need a new dream and new plans. A new “big focus” in life. It will come to you but it will take time. May be this time round if you haven’t done so already literally write down the dreams and plans you have for your daughters. Your own personal plan will come but it will take time. Meanwhile it’s a case of treading water, consolidating what you have and making it safe and secure, ready for when you are once again prepared to take new risks, to be vulnerable again with new dreams and new plans.


I know this was written for NG, but applies to many here - including me. I have no idea what to do, where to start, but I like your idea. Thanks.


----------



## Deejo

I just reread the thread. The items outlined below, are to me, the 'essence' of getting started down the road. I am curious if you still feel that it's somehow contrived or about conformity ... because quite simply put, it shouldn't.



nice777guy said:


> A bit more Bob...
> 
> When I first came here - I was desparately trying to figure out how to save my marriage. Now - I'm trying to figure out how to be a better person and a stronger man and I'm letting her go...


Most who come here start from this very place. Some make their relationships better. Some _think_ they make their relationships better. Some need to let go and move on.

Others on the board are likely to chime in based upon what they have been through. Some of it is advice, to be weighed and processed. Some of it is a cautionary, or angry, lamentation. Someone relating to similar, painful circumstances.



BigBadWolf said:


> To me "Manning up" is simply encouraging a man reading on this forum to realize it is *BOTH* his responsibility and privilege to be his own yardstick of his success.


This encapsulates the big picture ... importantly because the big picture isn't about your marriage or relationship. It's about you.

And as simple as it looks as words on a page, and despite being easy to nod in agreement that it makes logical sense ... it doesn't. It's meaningless UNTIL you actually internalize it. Once you believe, practice and experience it ... everything changes. I have no other way to frame it.


You decide what it is and how it looks to you, and to others, and adjust the yardstick based upon your own goals.


----------



## Janie

AFEH said:


> NG do you know you come across as a tyre kicker as far as manning up is concerned? Two years, over 3,000 posts, yet what have you integrated into your life from a manning up point of view? To me it seems like zero, nada. Yet here you are, still kicking tyres. Why not just drop the whole thing, just let the whole manning up thing go. Forget about it and move on.


NG is getting a bad rap here.

He isn't kicking tires on this thread, I am the one who breathed life back into a month-old thread because some comments made me laugh.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> I just reread the thread. The items outlined below, are to me, the 'essence' of getting started down the road. I am curious if you still feel that it's somehow contrived or about conformity ... because quite simply put, it shouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Most who come here start from this very place. Some make their relationships better. Some _think_ they make their relationships better. Some need to let go and move on.
> 
> Others on the board are likely to chime in based upon what they have been through. Some of it is advice, to be weighed and processed. Some of it is a cautionary, or angry, lamentation. Someone relating to similar, painful circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> This encapsulates the big picture ... importantly because the big picture isn't about your marriage or relationship. It's about you.
> 
> And as simple as it looks as words on a page, and despite being easy to nod in agreement that it makes logical sense ... it doesn't. It's meaningless UNTIL you actually internalize it. Once you believe, practice and experience it ... everything changes. I have no other way to frame it.
> 
> 
> You decide what it is and how it looks to you, and to others, and adjust the yardstick based upon your own goals.


I don't think "Manning Up" is contrived or about conformity at all. Sometimes though - what I "think" I see in the Men's Clubhouse - is people who are searching for themselves and find this as a good place to "fit in" - ie - conform. 

Reminds me a bit of Church. I think Religion and Spirituality are important - but I'm not completely sure how important Church is.

And your last paragraph - again - sounds like a person who is going to Church - singing the hymns - shaking the pastor's hand - but not living as a Christian after they walk out the door. The act like a Christian - but its not* internalized.*

I'd love to come here - smile - nod - sing along with the hymns - and feel like I was a true member of the Clubhouse - but I just don't always care for the tunes.

Am I making sense? Trouble sleeping lately...


----------



## Halien

nice777guy said:


> I agree...somewhat. For me, its more about finding myself right now.
> 
> 
> 
> Nail on the head. Time to start moving on...


Sometimes, we don't even know what the problem actually is when it comes to our failures in the past. We look around, questioning, but nothing seems to make the connection, as Deejo pointed out. Maybe your internal questioning is related to doubts you had about yourself all along, in your early years, and the marriage breakdown only reinforced it. Or maybe, you put your heart in soul in the marriage, and its loss left you feeling like everything is upside down, in a sense.

Manning up, or self-actualization isn't going to fix blind holes. Feeling whole comes from better understanding of what causes the underlying doubts, in my opinion.

I sense some similarities between us, possibly. I search situations on this site because I can't put a finger on the problem. It was only until I stopped to think about the threads that I tended to avoid that I started to understand what is going on deep inside. For me, I'm almost at the point of moving on.

As a kid, it seemed that life for me was a series of disappointments and abandonment. Through it all, I told myself that I would reach a place where my destiny was in my own hands, and I had control. Mentally, I equated a good marriage as one of two complementing journies. I would work hard to understand my wife, and her needs, and she would do the same. To be honest, I buried my head, just like I did when I was a kid, tossed around between parents and the streets. Here, I avoided threads where women talked about genuinely trying to understand their husbands, and actually did kind things, despite any underlying resentment. For me, that is the aching loss. My wife wants to be a good partner, and I love her deeply for trying, but looking to her for some sort of mutual fulfillment just leads to more hurt. I was just working hard to get ready for a train that ain't coming. Manning up, for me, is about self-acceptance. Its also about working hard for the marriage, but realistically. Its also about seeing the beauty in her, and releasing the hurt. Maybe if my internal deadlines reveal no results, it'll be about letting go of the relationship. 

Others will never understand your own definition of being a strong man. It doesn't make the hurtful situations of the past less hurtful, but it keeps you from feeling that you are somehow flawed.


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## nice777guy

Janie said:


> NG is getting a bad rap here.
> 
> He isn't kicking tires on this thread, I am the one who breathed life back into a month-old thread because some comments made me laugh.


My "rap" here is nothing new!!! And yes - I am tire kicking!

I've also had a few little things happening here and there that have made this whole thing relevant to me again.


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## nice777guy

Halien said:


> Sometimes, we don't even know what the problem actually is when it comes to our failures in the past. We look around, questioning, but nothing seems to make the connection, as Deejo pointed out. Maybe your internal questioning is related to doubts you had about yourself all along, in your early years, and the marriage breakdown only reinforced it. Or maybe, you put your heart in soul in the marriage, and its loss left you feeling like everything is upside down, in a sense.
> 
> Manning up, or self-actualization isn't going to fix blind holes. Feeling whole comes from better understanding of what causes the underlying doubts, in my opinion.
> 
> I sense some similarities between us, possibly. I search situations on this site because I can't put a finger on the problem. It was only until I stopped to think about the threads that I tended to avoid that I started to understand what is going on deep inside. For me, I'm almost at the point of moving on.
> 
> As a kid, it seemed that life for me was a series of disappointments and abandonment. Through it all, I told myself that I would reach a place where my destiny was in my own hands, and I had control. Mentally, I equated a good marriage as one of two complementing journies. I would work hard to understand my wife, and her needs, and she would do the same. To be honest, I buried my head, just like I did when I was a kid, tossed around between parents and the streets. Here, I avoided threads where women talked about genuinely trying to understand their husbands, and actually did kind things, despite any underlying resentment. For me, that is the aching loss. My wife wants to be a good partner, and I love her deeply for trying, but looking to her for some sort of mutual fulfillment just leads to more hurt. I was just working hard to get ready for a train that ain't coming. Manning up, for me, is about self-acceptance. Its also about working hard for the marriage, but realistically. Its also about seeing the beauty in her, and releasing the hurt. Maybe if my internal deadlines reveal no results, it'll be about letting go of the relationship.
> 
> Others will never understand your own definition of being a strong man. It doesn't make the hurtful situations of the past less hurtful, but it keeps you from feeling that you are somehow flawed.


Halien - for the record - I'm reading everything you're writing here - even if I'm not responding directly. Good stuff.


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> I'd love to come here - smile - nod - sing along with the hymns - and feel like I was a true member of the Clubhouse - but I just don't always care for the tunes.
> 
> Am I making sense? Trouble sleeping lately...


Yep. Makes sense to me.

I think you are further along than you think you are.

You don't need the recipe book. You just need to start cooking.
Was going to say that you don't need the play book, you just need to start playing the game, but it sounded too Alpha. And we know what using the word 'game' gets me.


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## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> i've also had a few little things happening here and there that have made this whole thing relevant to me again.


hawt chix?


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## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> hawt chix?


Not exactly!!!

Probably just thinking too hard!

A quote from one of my favorite manly movies - The Last Samurai - "No mind."


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## Deejo

Halien said:


> Manning up, or self-actualization isn't going to fix blind holes. Feeling whole comes from better understanding of what causes the underlying doubts, in my opinion.
> 
> I sense some similarities between us, possibly. I search situations on this site because I can't put a finger on the problem. It was only until I stopped to think about the threads that I tended to avoid that I started to understand what is going on deep inside. For me, I'm almost at the point of moving on.
> 
> My wife wants to be a good partner, and I love her deeply for trying, but looking to her for some sort of mutual fulfillment just leads to more hurt. I was just working hard to get ready for a train that ain't coming. Manning up, for me, is about self-acceptance. Its also about working hard for the marriage, but realistically. Its also about seeing the beauty in her, and releasing the hurt. Maybe if my internal deadlines reveal no results, it'll be about letting go of the relationship.



This is gold too. 

Third paragraph sums up my arc perfectly.
I stopped waiting for her to behave in a manner that would allow me to feel validated and fulfilled. I paid attention to her behavior for who she was ... accepted that fact, and decided I required more than she either could, or wanted to give.

Although sad, it was also incredibly liberating and powerful.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> You don't need the recipe book. You just need to start cooking.


Excellent metaphor! You have all the tools, you just need to start.


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## mr.rightaway

Therealbrighteyes said:


> All kidding aside, are you familiar with the Eagle Scouts? After years of dedication, hard work and foregoing what many of their friends do, they have one final project to complete and it has to be done before their 18th birthday, no second chances. The project has to be pre-approved by their Scoutmaster to make certain it is difficult enough for their abilities. A friend of mine built a bridge. It was a suspension bridge in a nature sanctuary, the previous one having been washed away during a hurricane. He had to complete this bridge all by himself, the only help being the original delivery of the supplies. He spent nearly a year researching/ planning/mapping and learning how suspension bridges work, what load they can bear, figuring out what he would need, etc. This was a bridge that would be over a small bayou and crossed by thousands of people a year. It took him the entire summer in the Houston heat to complete and he camped out in the sanctuary in a tent, as that was required. Solitude and self reliance. It was misery and agony oftentimes but he finished it. It had to be surveyed by an engineering firm and if it didn't pass, he wouldn't have gotten his Eagle Scout designation. It did and he became an Eagle Scout. His sense of pride is enormous and what he learned was to continue to rely on himself, make no excuses, take pride in your work, follow through with your commitments and above all, be the best man you can be.
> Go build your bridge.


Pinewood Derby was the best!


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## mr.rightaway

NG, I think manning-up starts with failure. In order to man-up, you must fail. This element is crucial for character-building. You have to then internalize things. It's all about taking charge of your inner self, and not just as a cliche, but more...how to say it...walk with swag, passion, fortitude, vigor, all in the face of hardship. Hard for me to put it into words. You don't have to be a John Wayne type in order to man-up. Kick a tire here and there? Sure.



BigBadWolf said:


> To me "Manning up" is simply encouraging a man reading on this forum to realize it is *BOTH* his responsibility and privilege to be his own yardstick of his success.
> 
> Whether the "responsibility" or the "privilege" needs to be emphasized, that of course depends on the situation at hand.
> 
> *Responsibility- in the form of the man recognizing the IMPERATIVE of standing up for himself even when there is a risk. (engaging in conflict, sh1t tests, proving physical/emotional/mental/financial strength, etc)*
> 
> Privilege- in the form of recognizing the rewards of taking such a risk are not only deserved, but should even be expected. (Respect,sexual attraction-via hypergamy, ****iness, humor)
> 
> Not sure where in this is room for conformity.
> 
> But indeed "being yourself" and not worrying about being accepted by others is certainly the attitude that would encourage in every man.


I think the above quote pretty much sums it up. You own your responsibilities, and by proxy your failures in the face of risk; uphold a strong character, keep focused, walk upright and do what you gotta do with minimal whining. You take charge of your destiny.

Personally, take your time to sit in front of the TV eating half-cooked TV dinners with some Pabst, or maybe your favorite soft drink...whatever, and dwell on the life you had that was lost. There's time for that. Take your time for that. When that time is done, it's on to kicking a$$ and taking names of your inner struggle and not letting it beat you. New bonds and experiences will be formed and you will rebuild.


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## ManDup

Deejo said:


> And we know what using the word 'game' gets me.


Hawt chix?


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## ManDup

nice777guy said:


> I don't think "Manning Up" is contrived or about conformity at all. Sometimes though - what I "think" I see in the Men's Clubhouse - is people who are searching for themselves and find this as a good place to "fit in" - ie - conform.
> 
> Reminds me a bit of Church. I think Religion and Spirituality are important - but I'm not completely sure how important Church is.
> 
> And your last paragraph - again - sounds like a person who is going to Church - singing the hymns - shaking the pastor's hand - but not living as a Christian after they walk out the door. The act like a Christian - but its not* internalized.*
> 
> I'd love to come here - smile - nod - sing along with the hymns - and feel like I was a true member of the Clubhouse - but I just don't always care for the tunes.
> 
> Am I making sense? Trouble sleeping lately...


You're a giver. You give so that you fulfill the needs of your woman. You hope/expect that she is a giver too, and will reciprocate. When she doesn't, you accept that, because you are primarily a giver, and you can fix all problems by giving more. You just haven't given enough yet, like the Horse in Animal Farm. 

What you need to realize is that you matter too. Your family matters. Did you put her family above yours? Did you put her needs above yours? You matter too. That's the song this choir is singing.


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## AFEH

NG, well done with your boundaries, that was a massive thing for me. But it all takes practice. Have you heard of the Four Stages of Competence model? The following’s from Four stages of competence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

_(1) Unconscious Incompetence 
The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognise their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage.[2] The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.[3]

(2) Conscious Incompetence 
Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.[4]

(3) Conscious Competence 
The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.[3]

(4) Unconscious Competence 
The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned._

It’s good to think on the above model when learning a new life skill like personal boundaries. In perhaps a year or so time you’ll be an Unconscious Competent as far as boundaries are concerned.


You mentioned a little while back that you see your wife as Alpha and that she made all the decisions. As you know along with making the decisions comes risks and responsibilities. Basically it means your wife must have been the leader in the relationship and you would have operated in a supportive role. A lot of manning up is playing that leadership, decision making, responsibility and risk taking role in the relationship.

But maybe you operated better as a supporter. Nothing at all wrong with that and I reckon you probably made a very good supporter. And just maybe that’s why you don’t see sense in a lot of the manning up stuff, because your personality is better attuned to be a supporter rather than a leader.

So maybe you are getting a bit of a double whammy. In that not only are you adrift a bit but you are also in the new position of having to now take all the decisions and associated risks and responsibilities in your life. And just maybe that’s why you are now kind of re-interested in the whole manning up thing.


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## nice777guy

ManDup said:


> You're a giver. You give so that you fulfill the needs of your woman. You hope/expect that she is a giver too, and will reciprocate. When she doesn't, you accept that, because you are primarily a giver, and you can fix all problems by giving more. You just haven't given enough yet, like the Horse in Animal Farm.
> 
> *What you need to realize is that you matter too.* Your family matters. Did you put her family above yours? Did you put her needs above yours? You matter too. That's the song this choir is singing.


Got it...agree with most of it. Willing to own most of it.

But this choir has more than one song in its hymnal.


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## nice777guy

AFEH said:


> NG, well done with your boundaries, that was a massive thing for me. But it all takes practice. Have you heard of the Four Stages of Competence model? The following’s from Four stages of competence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> _(1) Unconscious Incompetence
> The individual does not understand or know how to do something and does not necessarily recognize the deficit. They may deny the usefulness of the skill. The individual must recognise their own incompetence, and the value of the new skill, before moving on to the next stage.[2] The length of time an individual spends in this stage depends on the strength of the stimulus to learn.[3]
> 
> (2) Conscious Incompetence
> Though the individual does not understand or know how to do something, he or she does recognize the deficit, as well as the value of a new skill in addressing the deficit. The making of mistakes can be integral to the learning process at this stage.[4]
> 
> (3) Conscious Competence
> The individual understands or knows how to do something. However, demonstrating the skill or knowledge requires concentration. It may be broken down into steps, and there is heavy conscious involvement in executing the new skill.[3]
> 
> (4) Unconscious Competence
> The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it has become "second nature" and can be performed easily. As a result, the skill can be performed while executing another task. The individual may be able to teach it to others, depending upon how and when it was learned._
> 
> It’s good to think on the above model when learning a new life skill like personal boundaries. In perhaps a year or so time you’ll be an Unconscious Competent as far as boundaries are concerned.
> 
> 
> You mentioned a little while back that you see your wife as Alpha and that she made all the decisions. As you know along with making the decisions comes risks and responsibilities. Basically it means your wife must have been the leader in the relationship and you would have operated in a supportive role. A lot of manning up is playing that leadership, decision making, responsibility and risk taking role in the relationship.
> 
> But maybe you operated better as a supporter. Nothing at all wrong with that and I reckon you probably made a very good supporter. And just maybe that’s why you don’t see sense in a lot of the manning up stuff, because your personality is better attuned to be a supporter rather than a leader.
> 
> So maybe you are getting a bit of a double whammy. In that not only are you adrift a bit but you are also in the new position of having to now take all the decisions and associated risks and responsibilities in your life. And just maybe that’s why you are now kind of re-interested in the whole manning up thing.


Interesting stuff - thanks. Don't think I've seen this before.

"Never send your ducks to eagle school" - Wayne Dyer

I do think I fell well into the role of supporter much of the time at home. But then again - I was also my wife's biggest critic when I felt she needed it. Up until she went bat$hit and quit listening to me!

As a father - I think I've been an eagle.

At work - I'm farther along. Worthy of being an eagle - with a bit more to learn.

But at home - personally - in my marriage - I've done a lot of quacking.

I'd like to think that - duck or eagle - I can still soar (these metaphors are getting out of hand) and that I'm possibly "stuck" at number three. I also need CLOSURE on my marriage. Should come sometime in January. I think that will move me a bit closer.

So - to sum it all up - I'm a duck, wanting to be an eagle - who is attending Church, but not sure he's found the right congregation (mostly based off of their music) - and I need to go build a bridge.

"No mind" might honestly be my best option!

Or - as Carlin said - "Life's simple - just do whatever's next"


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