# Questions for guys re porn vs real women...



## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Hi fellas.

I am happily married now but was in a messed up relationship years ago that really messed with me. The guy was really heavily into porn and had a messed up life himself. Basically, i am wondering if some of his mindsets were unique to him and his situation or if most guys think this way. So, here are some questions...

1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc

2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?

3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?

4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner

Cheers


Quiet Soul


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not a guy, but...humiliating is subjective  Hubs and I aren't into porn...we find it trashy. However, we get freaky and it's not humiliating to me.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

I watch porn very regularly and here are my answers:

1. No
2. No
3. Yes unless they had previously agreed that this was ok (I have a friend who doesn't mind her husband having sex with her while she is sleeping, etc)
4. Yes because each person has the right to determine what he or she considers to be moral. Also, fantasies are not reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

To clarify... let's define immoral as illegal. Ie, fantasising about an illegal act, that if carried out would be punishable, such as sex with a minor


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

1. No. Most of my ideas have come from my lady, and what she has told me she likes or does not like. I'd much rather get info about women in general from a forum like this than from porn. I actually trust when I hear it from real people whereas I think of porn as something made just to turn somebody on. I don't think the things portrayed in porn are real ... just don't.

2. No. Again, this is probably because my lady tells me and shows me she is happy with me. If I was frustrated, or didn't have a healthy relationship, I might tend to think about this, but again, I think I would rather come to a place like this and hear from real people because I just don't think the things portrayed in porn are real. 

3. If this was something we had discussed and she had told me she wanted me to do this sometimes, then maybe I would think it is okay. If not, then depending on where we were in our relationship, I might view it as something where she might get turned on. I don't think she would stay asleep if I began, though. If she did not respond to me positively when I began, and it had never been discussed as something she thought was okay, or something she wanted, then I would not want to proceed with it. As a minimum, I would think it is very demeaning to her, and would give me no emotional connection, so it would not be pleasant for me. In fact, I would view it as disrespectful toward her, and something that could have no benefit for me.

4. This was an easy "yes" until you gave the examples ... I think we all have fantasies, and many of these are things we don't want to carry out in the real world. My wife and I discuss ours and role play on them, but we don't want to share or open our marriage. When you go into something like sex with an underage person, if I found that actually happening in my mind, I would be disgusted with myself. I don't know for sure how I would try to deal with it, but I know I would be upset with myself that such things were happening in my mind. With an unwilling person: I'm a gentle person who loves reciprocation, so I can't see that as being anything that would interest me, and in fact would be something I would consider to be very wrong. I would probably view that in much the same way I view fantasizing about sex with an underage person. However; I can't deny that I have fantasies about another person - even though I don't want to do that in the real world. I suppose so long as it is harmless, and something my wife and I can play out together, then I don't have problems with the fantasies, but you definitely gave me a couple that would make me very uncomfortable if I found them playing out in my mind. Maybe my discomfort with the idea prevents that from becoming a fantasy.

I should probably add that I'm not much into porn. There have been a few times I have viewed it, sure. But given the choice, I would much rather be with my wife, and let her be the recipient of my attention.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


I don't watch it anymore, though I used to. I think the most harmful thing in this particular context for me was that I assumed I just had to stand around with my fly open and my wife would ravish me. Apparently, I have to actually make some moves, too. Who knew?



> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


Yeah, a bit. It's like being a good musician and watching a concert by one of the best players in the world. Except that can be inspiring and make you practice more. I'm not really worried about it, though. I'm more annoyed by the fact that her sister has always made a big deal about guy's size.



> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


Officially, in the US, I think it might be construed as rape. But since you asked for opinions, no, I don't think it is at all. It's a bit rude, though. However, I'd like to know the circumstances before I passed too much judgement. 



> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


A lot of people would disagree with me, but I don't think it's okay. Apart from anything else, it's going to make you want to do it for real. All sexual crimes start out as fantasies.


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## couple (Nov 6, 2010)

1. Probably, most things I see or read influence me in some way. There are REAL aspects to porn. For example, the proliferation of makers of internet porn has made it easier for young women to do porn for money and it's interesting to see what, for example, some college girls will do for a little money.

2. Not sure if 'inadequate' is the right word but with porn it's graphically apparent how different a very large penis is for a women. Not implying better or worse but you can really see how different it must be for them.

3. Not sure...really depends on the circumstance.

4. What do you mean by 'OK'? People will think about what they will think about. What's not OK is acting it out. Fantasizing about children means that you have sexual urges towards them...this is not OK as it can cause huge problems should it not be able to be controlled. So the problem is not with the fantasy itself but with the deviant urges.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

Moral and legal do not have to be related but to answer your question, I do not think fantasizing about an illegal act is wrong..as much as I think fantasizing about sexual crimes are disgusting and terrible. I disagree with the previous post that it is going to make you want to do it for real. It is possible this may be the case but I would not call it a fact or a rule. I also disagree with the previous post that said all sexual crime start out as fantasies. The definition of sexual crime is very vast from a legal perspective and it can be noted in a fair number of cases I've seen that there were other mitigating factors.

But we should all understand one thing. Thinking about something is not illegal...but committing a violation is where the world of reality enters the equation and there is a big difference. Let's say I think about wanting to kill my boss...until i I act on that thought I have every right to think it no matter who else thinks that the thought might be immoral.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

1. No, I don't think it has developed an unrealistic expectation of women for me. In the same way as watching a movie about superheroes that can fly makes me think I can fly...

2. It can lead to wishing I was perhaps a little bigger, but again, I can deal with the fact that many of those guys are in the biz because of their equipment. They don't have many ugly movie stars either, and I can deal with that. And my GF has been with quite large guys. But guess what? She's with me, not them.

3. Yes, it is. Non-consenting partner = rape. Having said that, my GF has given me permission to awaken her up however I like, so...

4. I might have fantasies that aren't right, but I won't encourage/dwell on them. I can't necessarily stop a thought from popping into my head, but I can think of something else to occupy my brain/fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

In this post you say you are happily married, but in your other post called, "4 yrs and struggling" you say you are very worried about your marriage. and that you husband was a sex addict. So I'm assuming thats the questions about porn VS real women?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


Nope, no more than I`ve developed my ideas about marriage from "All in the family".
It`s entertainment.



> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


Nope, I`m quite happy with what I`ve got and someones always going to be bigger, better, harder, whatever.
No sense letting it bug you.



> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


Not assault and not rape because it`s likely she`s going to wake up and make her preferences known.
If she doesn`t wake up then your either not doing it right or she`s drugged.
If she doesn`t wake up it is indeed assault.



> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


Sure.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

QuietSoul said:


> Hi fellas.
> 
> I am happily married now but was in a messed up relationship years ago that really messed with me. The guy was really heavily into porn and had a messed up life himself. Basically, i am wondering if some of his mindsets were unique to him and his situation or if most guys think this way. So, here are some questions...
> 
> ...


1. No

2. No. I enjoy playing pickup basketball. I also enjoy catching an occasional game on TV. I never sit around feeling bad about myself because I'm not Derrick Rose or Dwyane Wade. Those guys are pros because their skills are very much the exception.

3. Yes. Sex should be consensual. A sleeping person can't give consent.

4. Maybe. Depends on the specific act, and one's morality. If you're fantisizing about rape or child abuse, it's immoral and sick whether you act on it or not. If you're a married guy who occasionally fantasizes about someone who's not your wife, that's not immoral, IMHO. Acting on that fantasy would be, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm really encouraged/uplifted by the number of men here who correctly identify rape/non-consenting sex or at least define it as rude and self-injurious. 

It seems most men understand that a woman can't change her mind while she is sleeping. :-o

Thanks for posting this, OP.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

QuietSoul said:


> Hi fellas.
> 
> I am happily married now but was in a messed up relationship years ago that really messed with me. The guy was really heavily into porn and had a messed up life himself. Basically, i am wondering if some of his mindsets were unique to him and his situation or if most guys think this way. So, here are some questions...
> 
> ...


1. No - I did not assume that porn was realistic.

2. Yes - porn did actually make me feel a bit inadequate!

3. That's a very vague question. I think there are circumstances where this could be considered rape. 

4. I think it's ok to have "immoral" fantasies or thoughts - as long as you keep it as a fantasy. I suppose there are some extreme things that might indicate you have major issues - like necrophilia - or the difference between sex with a 17 year old compared to a small child. But last I heard, they can't lock us up for thinking bad thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

QuietSoul said:


> Hi fellas.
> 
> I am happily married now but was in a messed up relationship years ago that really messed with me. The guy was really heavily into porn and had a messed up life himself. Basically, i am wondering if some of his mindsets were unique to him and his situation or if most guys think this way. So, here are some questions...


And here are some answers...



QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


Not really.
Porn is an outlet. A fantasy outlet for me. I do tend to watch porn that reflects what I like in fantasy, but am able to draw a distinction between fantasy and reality.
I also am drawn to porn my wife and I have done or would possibly do in reality.
I am also watch women that in some way resemble my wife. I'm not really interested in a bleach blonde with 45DD knockers...



QuietSoul said:


> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


I know my wife doesn't. She complains that I'm too big.



QuietSoul said:


> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


That depends.
How far did he go? I have fondled and kissed my wife as she slept. Never had sex with her, but one time after she's had a lot to drink, she didn't remember much about it...



QuietSoul said:


> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


As another poster stated, morals differ from person to person. Illegality is also too broad a window to make a definite statement on.
Some of my fantasies and acts that the wife and I have done are illegal and I am sure that there are people that think a LOT of them are immoral, but we both consented to whatever it was at the time.


QuietSoul said:


> Cheers


Cheers back.



QuietSoul said:


> Quiet Soul


DanF


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

It's a dumb post because you already know the answer but I'll bit.

Porn is no different to any other movie.

It does not influence people any more than soapies do. (Actually, it's probably less influentual if anything.

These is one queston however that is sensable. Sex with a person while they are alseep.

That depends on the type of relationship you have with that person.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Diolay said:


> It does not influence people any more than soapies do.


That's ironic. You do realize that studies show that soapies greatly influence peoples' behaviour, right? In fact, massive cultural shifts have happened just due to radio broadcasts, TV shows, etc., with specific and hidden agendas. Soap opera radio shows are regularly broadcast in India and Africa to subtly address family planning issues and have had an enormous effect.

One Mexican soap opera inserted a theme about adult literacy into its show and the very next day the amount of people seeking information about how to improve their literacy went from just a handful to over 250,000. In one day! From one episode!

The sitcom Happy Days had one episode that prompted a 600% increase in requests for library cards.

And, of course there have been far less positive messages in movies and TV shows as well that have shaped peoples' opinions. 

It's like when people say that advertising does not affect them. What they are really saying is that advertising affects them so deeply that they don't even realize it.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I'm really encouraged/uplifted by the number of men here who correctly identify rape/non-consenting sex or at least define it as rude and self-injurious.
> 
> It seems most men understand that a woman can't change her mind while she is sleeping. :-o
> 
> Thanks for posting this, OP.


It's just something you have to talk about before it happens.

I LOVE being woken up from sleep with my husband already inside of me. I trust him so I don't mind.

Not everyone would be up for that. But I love it.


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

I was unaware that sucha study existed but somehow not surprised.

So are you saying that ALL forms of media should be banned?


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Diolay said:


> I was unaware that sucha study existed but somehow not surprised.
> 
> So are you saying that ALL forms of media should be banned?


Eh? Banned? Ha!  Good luck with such a ban, even if it's a good idea! Of course I'm not saying that all forms of media should be banned. In an ideal world _deception_ in the media would be banned. Right now all I'm saying is that it's best to be aware that media wields powerful influence in society--and that means us, when we watch or listen. I don't ever presume I'm immune to being influenced and I'm careful what I allow into my life.

There is a saying from way back: "You are who you keep company with". And that goes for media, too.


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

So if deception in media is banned, what would be banned....

Might be easier to answer, what would be left?


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

Imagine if they DID ban deception in media.

There wouln't be any more polital speeches.

LOL


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

How about you just be smarter than the average media


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

You know what? I think you just hit the nail right on the head.

Let the person decide for themselves what they wnt to watch.
:smthumbup:


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

that_girl said:


> It's just something you have to talk about before it happens.
> 
> I LOVE being woken up from sleep with my husband already inside of me. I trust him so I don't mind.
> 
> Not everyone would be up for that. But I love it.


You must sleep like the dead.
If I touch my wife between the legs when she's asleep, she usually will jump two feet. Straight up. From a prone position.
I would love to wake her up that way, but it ain't gonna happen...


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> Hi fellas.
> 
> I am happily married now but was in a messed up relationship years ago that really messed with me. The guy was really heavily into porn and had a messed up life himself. Basically, i am wondering if some of his mindsets were unique to him and his situation or if most guys think this way. So, here are some questions...
> 
> ...



Porn is unhealthy period only a fool would try to argue that it is good or beneficial for society.

1) not at all 

2) every guy will think i wish i was that big. Not inadequate

3)no but its your partner but i think if they asked you to not do it than you should not and if they woke up and said stop to not do it. Touching a woman you are with when you are asleep or she is asleep is a turn on and often they wake up and than you get sex. It depends on the couple it can be very attractive and many guys would love if they were woken up by there woman giving them head.


4) yes and no it depends sex with underage people is not right especially pre puberty kids. You should not ever be thinking about sex with children i can understand an 18 or 17 year old if they are matured but even than its not to right but at the same time they are matured and almost done with puberty. But i cant imagine undressing a child in your mind and thinking about doing the deed or thinking about committing rape on someone who is screaming. Touching your spouse while they are asleep is "rape" as they are not consenting but i do not really think of it as rape unless they woke up and told you to stop and you continued and continued. Also i would never think about drugging someone that is wrong,i can understand role playing rape scenario's with a spouse as some people get off to that.


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

1. No, most grown ups realise that it is just fantasy.

2.No, just ask and most women will tell you that they don't care about size (within reason).

3. Depends. There is something called 'presumed consent' as in my wife can presume that she has permission to perform oral sex on me at any time. I would not consider it a violation if I woke up with her doing that. 

4. Your two examples no. I think if you have rape, bestiality and paedophilia fantasies you should seek counselling.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

OK here is the thing wih porn....

Professional movies....Unrealisic...he average male penis is 5-6" long, every male in these movies is like 9 inches. It also seems like they can last forever...I would too if I had 10 people watching me with microphones, camera's and fully clothed. 

Also Professional porn is "edited" that 20 min of "banging" is usually 1-2 minutes of breaks strung together.

95% of women are not like those women in porn NOR are the men.

It is foolish to compare your self to a porn, just is not happeneing.

there are some sites that have "normal" people porn, and guess what the average video is unter 2 minutes long and normal not "perfect" people.

I've posted before, my wife and I have made our own video's...The plumber and the house wife, hell we will wach it and then have our own fun.

I been with my wife over 20 years, we have our "own fun" Photo sessions, clubs, movies, some would consider naughty, but no one else is involved and good clean fun.

when I send a text to my wife while she is work and I am home, saying " watching the housewife/plumber video" she can hardly wai to come home and get some loving :smthumbup:

Marriage is what you make of it...you have to make it fun, everyone likes sex, it's our nature


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> Porn is unhealthy period only a fool would try to argue that it is good or beneficial for society.
> 
> 1) not at all
> 
> ...


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This topic is getting a bit out of hand to some degree I think. 

How can you make a statement like "Porn is unhealthy period..."? You may have this opinion but it is certainly not a fact. Furthermore, what evidence can you share with us to prove that this is a fact (meaning that in 100% of relationships, marriages, societies, etc. porn is "unhealthy"?)

Sorry to be argumentative, but let's be fair to everyone here. The truth is that porn can have a negative effect on society (whatever "negative" means) but you cannot possibly say with certainty that this is the case. Furthermore, to dictate to others this ultimatum seems a bit ludicrous to me without evidence.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Here's my 'bit'...!

1) Most porn is 'staged'...immaculate girl who have multiple orgasms from every hole given by a guy with rippling muscles, 9 inch schlong who can go on for ever! 
Reality isn't like that! (is it?!!). Yes I watch porn, maybe once /twice a month. My wife doesnt like sex so she only 'allows' me once a month (about)....watching porn is a bit of escapism.

2) I think alot of men would like to be 'bigger'....or be able to go on for days (!)....but if you and your partner are happy with 5" and 5 minutes then thats fine. Its what YOU are happy with.

3) My immediate response is that non-consensual sex is rape. However, if a wife said to her husband...'I'd love to be woken up by you going down on me or sliding into me sometime....'....and he did and then she 'cried' rape, I wonder what a court would make of it..??
Guys....would you cry rape or indecent assault if you were woken up by your wife sucking your balls etc??.... I know I certainly wouldn't!.....but sadly I know it will never happen, certainly not with this wife anyway!

4) Fantasising is healthy. We all have our own morals and standards. If a man fantasises abouyt having sex with a gorgoeous 17 yr old....she's a minor...but is it morally unacceptable?
There are tribes in Africa where it is perfectly acceptable (to them) to marry a 10yr old girl and have sex with her. Is that wrong? Not in their eyes it isn't. 
We have all, at some stage, been pi$$ed of by the attitude of a cop, Government official etc and imagined how wonderful it would be to punch their lights out....!! Imagining/fantasising about it is not an offence...the difference is if it remains a fantasy or not...!

In closing....and this is specifically aimed at those in the UK.... Anal sex is illegal...even between consenting adults!
So next time you are enjoying a bit of 'back door' fun....rememeber, you are committing an arrestable offence...even if done in private at home in your bedroom with the lights out!


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi 7737, I found this and thought you might mbe interested.

"The key issues are legality and consent. In the UK, anal intercourse is now a legal activity between consenting men and women aged 16 and over, in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships, except in Northern Ireland where it's 17 and over.

In some countries it is still a criminal offence punishable by long custodial sentences, and corporal or even capital punishment. It remains forbidden in some states of the USA, though in practice a Supreme Court decision of 2003 appears to invalidate these state laws."


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

That was on anal sex.

Sex with minors.

Age is an additional requirement. Every jurisdiction mandates that a man and a woman must be old enough to wed. In the 1800s, the legal age was as low as 12 years old for females. Modern statutes ordinarily provide that females may marry at age 16 and males at age 18. Sometimes a lower age is permitted with the written consent of the parents. A number of states allow for marriage below the minimum age if the female is pregnant and a judge grants permission.

It also talks about classes. Higher classes it was common for the girl to be married (arranged) at the age of 12 or 13 but middle class the age would be in their late teens early 20s.

The reason behind this was to give the man time to be in a financial position to support a wife and family. Of course, in upper classes, money wasn't the issue due to inheritance but blood line was important. which was why the marriages were arranged and arranged so young.


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

If you remember or have looked into the history of Little Richard, he married a 13 year old and really took a hard time from the public. This happened virtually at the pinnicle of his career. DJs refused to play his music, fans turned on him in droves and the whole affair was a PR nightmare. This was as recent as the 50s (or 60s). Point is though, back in him home state, it was common for girls that young to wed. In fact, in some parts of the USA in that time, if a girl was still single at the age of 16, she was considered an old maid and shame was brought on to the family by society.


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

Sorry for the history lesson here folks but when 7737 mentioned anal and minor sex, I thought he/she would find this little tit bit of info fascinating.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Diolay said:


> If you remember or have looked into the history of Little Richard, he married a 13 year old and really took a hard time from the public. This happened virtually at the pinnicle of his career. DJs refused to play his music, fans turned on him in droves and the whole affair was a PR nightmare. This was as recent as the 50s (or 60s). Point is though, back in him home state, it was common for girls that young to wed. In fact, in some parts of the USA in that time, if a girl was still single at the age of 16, she was considered an old maid and shame was brought on to the family by society.


I believe you're thinking go Jerry Lee Lewis, not Little Richard... Just as an FYI.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Diolay (Jan 25, 2012)

Oh yeah. Coulf be too.


Oops. My boo boo.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Diolay said:


> If you remember or have looked into the history of Little Richard, he married a 13 year old and really took a hard time from the public. This happened virtually at the pinnicle of his career. DJs refused to play his music, fans turned on him in droves and the whole affair was a PR nightmare. This was as recent as the 50s (or 60s). Point is though, back in him home state, it was common for girls that young to wed. In fact, in some parts of the USA in that time, if a girl was still single at the age of 16, she was considered an old maid and shame was brought on to the family by society.


As others have said, you're thinking of Jerry Lee Lewis, who did marry a thirteen year-old in 1957.

Also, it seems as if your notions of the American south in 1957 are based on Snuffy Smith comics. It was not common for 13 year-olds to marry. The median age for a female at her first marriage in 1950 was 20.3. So 16 year-olds were never considered old maids.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I'm really encouraged/uplifted by the number of men here who correctly identify rape/non-consenting sex or at least define it as rude and self-injurious.
> 
> It seems most men understand that a woman can't change her mind while she is sleeping. :-o
> 
> Thanks for posting this, OP.


Lest all the men here be seen as enlightened feminists, I'll throw my two cents in. 

I think the notion of presumed consent in a marriage, or long-term relationship, is perfectly valid. I haven't had sex with my wife while she's unconscious simply because, as Austin Powers would say, it's not my bag, baby. But my reasons have absolutely nothing to do with consent or rape.

I will disagree with ancient common law that it is impossible for a wife to withdraw consent at any time. But I think the notion of presumed consent, unless the wife explicitly refuses to participate, is the best compromise.

Arguing that a woman must give explicit permission for each and every act is pretty ridiculous. I would hate for married men to carry bundles of wavers with them to the bedroom to negotiate the evening's sexual activities. "Just sign these copies in triplicate, honey, and we can get busy."


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc

No, I have never been confused by the fact that porn is product and like every other product it is marketed to its consumers. It is not journalism or a documentary. 

I have have known enough women in my life who have little problem talking openly and frankly about sex and romance to long ago give up thinking in terms of what "women want" and think about what "this woman wants". 

2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?

As with much of entertainment, mainstream porn is based on fantasy. We all fail when compared to a fantasy. 

3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?

If you mean having sex with a woman who is passed out due to too much alcohol or another drug, then yes is it clearly rape. Simply sleeping might be a grey area if you are already in a sexual relationship with the person. If you know or have doubt she would say no if she was awake, then it is rape. I have initiated sex with a sleeping partner on the reasonable expectation that she will quickly wake up (this has always been the case) and would enjoy being woken up in this way. I did have girlfriend who liked the idea of being "taken" when she is asleep but even then she pretended to be a sleep long after I am sure she woke. 


4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner

If you are talking about fantasies in general and not just the cited examples, I think the short answer is yes. I think for most people most of the time fantasies are based on things that they will never do in real life. That is a large part of their appeal. The only word of caution would be that if you feel drawn or compelled to act out in a manner that would be harmful to someone else. In other words, if your fantasies were becoming an obsession and you wanted to act out with minors or felt the temptation to act on a rape fantasy, then you should seek out counselling and avoid things that would support your fantasy.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

Here goes. 

For me it's not really about looks or sexual positions being acted-out in skin flicks. I've gotten pretty freaky before, so that's not what turns me on. What _does_ turn me on, is the intensity... I want a girl who is totally into sex with me. I want her to get-off, just as much a I want to get-off. KWIM

These chicks "act" like they're totally into it- that's what I want in my partner... the same enthusiasm I bring to it.

I mean, seriously... who wants a dead [email protected]#$?


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> In this post you say you are happily married, but in your other post called, "4 yrs and struggling" you say you are very worried about your marriage. and that you husband was a sex addict. So I'm assuming thats the questions about porn VS real women?


Hey. Good point. Well, I wasn't trying to be deceptive, it was more a matter of verbal laziness. I am having some problems in my marriage, but no these questions we're not inspired by our sex life, they really did stem from experiences with my ex. so when i said happily married, i just meant in this context, my questions are not indicative of our problems in the bedroom. 

My husband is an addict yes but he has years of sobriety, 12 step meetings and occasionally slips up with porn and similar things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone for responding. Some interesting answers.

Again on the subject of sex with an unconscious partner, I am finding some answers quite concerning. I can understand if the couple has negotiated this happening beforehand. For those who think it's ok to not obtain a woman's consent beforehand, why do you believe this is acceptable? Eg, you believe this is somehow.part of the default terms of a relationship unless otherwise indicated? Is it that you assume she.would be ok with it? Or that by being in a relationship, you have some kind of 24/7 access rights to her vagina?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

When talking about your relationship you should never have to use terms like 'negotiated beforehand' or 'obtaining consent'. 

If you can't trust your partner not to do something against your will while you are sleeping, or any other time, then you should just leave him. 

Marriage is no place for dry legalism.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

QuietSoul said:


> Again on the subject of sex with an unconscious partner, I am finding some answers quite concerning. I can understand if the couple has negotiated this happening beforehand. For those who think it's ok to not obtain a woman's consent beforehand, why do you believe this is acceptable? Eg, you believe this is somehow.part of the default terms of a relationship unless otherwise indicated? Is it that you assume she.would be ok with it? Or that by being in a relationship, you have some kind of 24/7 access rights to her vagina?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It was covered a few posts ago. Marriage means implied consent. Unless you say no, it means yes. That's just the most reasonable way to look at it.

Most men would run from a relationship with any woman who insisted on negotiating the terms of sex before any encounter, or who insisted on a man requesting explicit permission before any act.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> I think I get the big picture, that in a committed relationship the more formal and clear sexual progression questions/actions can be shortened into a casual "it's cool to have sex" sequence.


That's it. One of the main reasons that men marry is to fast forward through all the preliminary sexual crap. If you had to start at square one for every sexual encounter between married couples, then what's the point, sexually, of being married?



FrenchFry said:


> But what trips me up about "implied consent" with an unconcious partner...is that the implied consent isn't there when one can't consent due to being unconcious. They can't say yes or no and the other partner has no opportunity to turn a soft no into a yes, or for any kind of dialogue at all. Implied consent in that case sounds way more like justification for marital rape than anything else.


That's assuming that an explicit yes is required in order for sex to be consensual. I reject that. Especially between married couples.

If I help my wife empty the dishwasher every night, I pretty much know where the dishes go. Because of that familiarity, if my wife isn't in the room, I feel free to empty the dishwasher and put things where I think she would want them to go. I'll probably be right.

Rape is defined, essentially, as using force to compel a person to have sex against her will. Now, husbands are capable, under that definition, of raping their wives. But that's not what we're talking about. What the marital rape proponents are trying to do is redefine rape to mean any sex act where the wife hasn't given explicit permission at each step of the process.



FrenchFry said:


> To be clear, I'm picturing totally unconcious sex, not "wake up sex" or even "really intoxicated" sex which, again, in a marriage is way more of a gray area than dating because of the ability to take in and understand your partners more casual/subtle consent actions. But I don't agree that marriage implies an automatic yes when a person in unable to give a no at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that is a minor issue. The percentage of women who sleep that soundly is going to be miniscule. And I'm assuming that all, or almost all of them, will notice upon waking that they have had sex. If it's a problem for them, they can tell their husband at that point not to do it again. And the husband should respect that position.

But, arguing that women should be capable of giving an explicit yes in order for sex to be consensual is not much different than arguing that women should be sober and capable of giving an explicit yes. And that would just never fly.


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## AE86freak (Feb 24, 2012)

1. Porn totally distorted my perception of women, specifically white women (I am Black and my wife white). Porn had me thinking that all white women love giving BJs (my wife hates it and it turns her off). porn had me thinking that all women can ride on top for a long time (my wife has bad knees from ballet dancing as a kid and can't stay on top too long). and porn had me thinking all positions are pleasurable for a woman (that's total crap!)


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## AE86freak (Feb 24, 2012)

2. Im lucky enough to be the first and only guy my wife has been with, so she has no other penis experience to compare mine to.
3. doing things to your wife while she's asleep wouldn't be considered rape or assault if she is the type of wife you feels it's her duty to make sure you are sexually satisfied.
4. It's normal to fantasize about illegal things... I fantasize about running ppl off the road when they cut me off in traffic, I fantisize
about speeding and doing donuts if I had a chance to drive a Porsche 911 Turbo. That's all illegal. As for underage sex... in my state 16 is the age of consent, so i wouldn't be wrong to have a quick fantascy about Debby Ryan (who is 19 now, but has her own Disney Channel series called Jessie).


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## AE86freak (Feb 24, 2012)

Jeff74 said:


> ----------
> 
> This topic is getting a bit out of hand to some degree I think.
> 
> ...



I agree. Lots I've gotten lots of good moves from porn!


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## HappyHappyJoyJoy (Feb 24, 2012)

My husband has sleep sex with me all the time, and I do wake up, but for reasons I won't go into here I just let him get his fill so I can go back to sleep. Never did I consider it remotely close to rape. To me, my husband can and should be able to have me whenever he wants, even if I'm asleep. My faith tells me my body belongs to my husband, but aside from that, if he can get some satisfaction without me having to pin my legs behind my neck then why the heck not? He's my husband!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> I guess we just disagree, I define rape as non-consensual sex period, no force needed.


And that's an irreconcilable difference. Force, or coercion, is easily defined. Consent isn't. For that reason, criminal rape should, and usually does, require force or coercion.



FrenchFry said:


> I'm not advocating for yes-steps, I'm looking for active participation without expectations or a sense of owing.


And this is another difference. Sexual relationships, especially marriages, have, and should have, expectations.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

HappyHappyJoyJoy said:


> My husband has sleep sex with me all the time, and I do wake up, but for reasons I won't go into here I just let him get his fill so I can go back to sleep. Never did I consider it remotely close to rape. To me, my husband can and should be able to have me whenever he wants, even if I'm asleep. My faith tells me my body belongs to my husband, but aside from that, if he can get some satisfaction without me having to pin my legs behind my neck then why the heck not? He's my husband!


So what's your point to your other rant then? If he can do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it, cool....right?
You sound like another poster here, BossesGirl 26. Same story as well.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> That's assuming that an explicit yes is required in order for sex to be consensual. I reject that. Especially between married couples.
> 
> If I help my wife empty the dishwasher every night, I pretty much know where the dishes go. Because of that familiarity, if my wife isn't in the room, I feel free to empty the dishwasher and put things where I think she would want them to go. I'll probably be right.
> 
> ...


The law in the UK is pretty clear - there is no implied consent, and hasn't been for about twenty years. As far as lack of consent goes, the law is very clear:

"Lack of consent may be demonstrated by:

the complainant's simple assertion (which may or not be backed up by evidence of force or threats;
evidence that by reason of _drink_, drugs, _sleep_, age, or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/or incapable of giving valid consent;"

emphasis mine.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> The law in the UK is pretty clear - there is no implied consent, and hasn't been for about twenty years. As far as lack of consent goes, the law is very clear:
> 
> "Lack of consent may be demonstrated by:
> 
> ...


Although I don't live in the UK, I'm aware of this law. Implied consent isn't doctrine in the U.S.A., either. I wasn't attempting to argue the law. I'm just giving my opinion on marital relations.

And, while I don't agree with the old common law tradition of implied consent precluding rape from being possible in a marriage, I think the pendulum has now swung too far in the opposite direction.

People are arguing against the expectation of sex in marriage. They're arguing that drunken sex is the equivalent of rape. If drunken sex is a crime, then we're going to need to build more prisons.


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## HappyHappyJoyJoy (Feb 24, 2012)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So what's your point to your other rant then? If he can do what he wants to do, when he wants to do it and how he wants to do it, cool....right?
> You sound like another poster here, BossesGirl 26. Same story as well.


I'm not sure I understand your opinion. I think my response here is well aligned with the issue I brought up in my other post. I said it here, I said it there, and I'll say it again. My husband's needs are very important to me. If he wants to go at it while I'm asleep I would never tell him no. In fact, I welcome it with open arms if it means he can get some satisfaction from that since it leaves me with some level of rest from the over-the-top sex he needs. But, my husband is not and will never be satisfied with only sleep sex. So, what exactly are you getting at?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Although I don't live in the UK, I'm aware of this law. Implied consent isn't doctrine in the U.S.A., either. I wasn't attempting to argue the law. I'm just giving my opinion on marital relations.
> 
> And, while I don't agree with the old common law tradition of implied consent precluding rape from being possible in a marriage, I think the pendulum has now swung too far in the opposite direction.
> 
> People are arguing against the expectation of sex in marriage. They're arguing that drunken sex is the equivalent of rape. If drunken sex is a crime, then we're going to need to build more prisons.


I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'll say this: whether the tide's flow is right or wrong, you're swimming against it. And if you're a-swimming agin the tide, you's askin' fer trouble (quote from my grandad, who was a Thames bargee)


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> When talking about your relationship you should never have to use terms like 'negotiated beforehand' or 'obtaining consent'.
> 
> If you can't trust your partner not to do something against your will while you are sleeping, or any other time, then you should just leave him.
> 
> Marriage is no place for dry legalism.



I completely agree. I can conceive of a a lot of hypothetical scenarios that consent could be confusing in a martial relationship and the imposition of a outside "rule" will not necessarily result in justice for either party.


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

Some people here seem to think that there is consent (meaning in their minds some kind of dry legal transaction to occur prior to each and every encounter), and implied consent (which seems to be a licence for a partner to help themselves to the other, even when the other is not in a position to say what they do or don't want).

I think we all know that consent is not about "oh, may i touch your breasts" "okay, yes, i give you consent to touch my breasts", "may i proceed to blah blah blah?" Even a one night stand doesn't go like that. Perhaps implied consent is where two adult parties are both freely and willingly engaging sexually and taking non-verbal cues from eachother to proceed towards intercourse or whatever. 

In my marriage, if my husband starts trying to initiate sex with me, or moves towards that from say kissing or cuddling, i don't consider it unconsentual because i am in a position to freely say "actually babe, can we not" if i don't feel like it.

But when a person is unconscious (whether simply asleep or passed out on alcohol or sedating medications), that person is not in a position to say no if they don't wish to. Unless they have agreed at one time (as opposed to every time before it happens) that they are both okay for that to happen, the initiating partner is at risk of violating his partner. If it turns out your partner was okay with it afterwards, then lucky for both of you. But if she wasn't, then you have just had sex with her limp body and unconscious mind in a situation that, had she had a voice, she would have said no to.

From my own experience, sometimes asleep or passed out from aforementioned causes, i might wake up just as he (my ex) started trying to penetrate or when he was touching me, or i might wake up when he was well and truly in the middle of it. I never consented to this, sometimes i would wake up and burst into tears, and he would justify it saying that i was enjoying it. (How the F*** could i be enjoying something that i was not even conscious for?) Other times, i woke up and just felt completely numb, like i just didn't care anymore.

What disturbed the the most was that it wasn't me he wanted to have sex with. Sex to me involves emotional connection, two parties engaging and working off eachothers energy, both enjoying it. In this situation, i just felt like a sex toy, a masturbation aide, a hole for his penis. I may as well have not been there. I may as well have been a toy, or someone else.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

So when my wife woke me up with a blow job yesterday she was in the process of raping me?
I would`ve had a case if I called a cop?

Sorry, I simply haven`t crossed over into that world of political correctness gone mad yet.

I`d like someone to shoot me if I ever do.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> So when my wife woke me up with a blow job yesterday she was in the process of raping me?
> I would`ve had a case if I called a cop?
> 
> Sorry, I simply haven`t crossed over into that world of political correctness gone mad yet.
> ...


Tacoma,

this went into law in the UK 20-30 odd years ago, so it pre-dates "political correctness".

I think it's more the "Law of Unintended Consequences"


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

Sawney Beane said:


> Tacoma,
> 
> this went into law in the UK 20-30 odd years ago, so it pre-dates "political correctness".
> 
> I think it's more the "Law of Unintended Consequences"


Actually "political correctness" was at its peak political height 20 years ago and has been in decline since. Many of the people who speak out against it now are simply reacting to its shadow. The term arose at a time when it was presumed to have such unquestioned moral authority "in right thinking circles" that to speak out against it was not merely to have a different opinion but to be a corrupt and evil reactionary. For example, I had a professor in a graduate program and seriously and intensely argued that it was "racist" unless you agree with an open door immigration policy

It is just and reasonable to legislate against marital rape, but there are limits to what can be effectively legislated and arbitrated by government.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

QuietSoul said:


> I think we all know that consent is not about "oh, may i touch your breasts" "okay, yes, i give you consent to touch my breasts", "may i proceed to blah blah blah?" Even a one night stand doesn't go like that.


Perhaps consent isn't about that, yet. But there are some people who want to redefine rape to mean any sexual encounter that fails to meet that standard that we each agree is utterly ridiculous. I hate to see the definition of rape steadily expanded toward such an awful, ultimate conclusion. But, as another poster wrote, I'm probably on the wrong side of history.



QuietSoul said:


> But when a person is unconscious (whether simply asleep or passed out on alcohol or sedating medications), that person is not in a position to say no if they don't wish to. Unless they have agreed at one time (as opposed to every time before it happens) that they are both okay for that to happen, the initiating partner is at risk of violating his partner. If it turns out your partner was okay with it afterwards, then lucky for both of you. But if she wasn't, then you have just had sex with her limp body and unconscious mind in a situation that, had she had a voice, she would have said no to.


And that would be unfortunate. I just resist calling it rape.



QuietSoul said:


> From my own experience, sometimes asleep or passed out from aforementioned causes, i might wake up just as he (my ex) started trying to penetrate or when he was touching me, or i might wake up when he was well and truly in the middle of it. I never consented to this, sometimes i would wake up and burst into tears, and he would justify it saying that i was enjoying it. (How the F*** could i be enjoying something that i was not even conscious for?) Other times, i woke up and just felt completely numb, like i just didn't care anymore.


I can only assume, since you have such strong feelings about the subject, that you clearly communicated to your ex as you were beginning your sexual relationship, that any liberties he took with you while you were unconscious would not be tolerated and would be considered rape. After that conversation, your ex certainly should have respected your wishes.

In my own marriage, I have been guilty of initiating sex with my sleeping wife while I was also asleep. My wife thought it was sweet that my unconscious mind was still turned on by her enough to direct my body to engage in sex. But that's immaterial to your point. By your definition, since my wife could not give explicit consent, am I guilty of having "sleep-raped" my wife?



QuietSoul said:


> What disturbed the the most was that it wasn't me he wanted to have sex with. Sex to me involves emotional connection, two parties engaging and working off eachothers energy, both enjoying it. In this situation, i just felt like a sex toy, a masturbation aide, a hole for his penis. I may as well have not been there. I may as well have been a toy, or someone else.


That is also unfortunate. And you're not alone in feeling used for sex. But that has absolutely nothing to do with consent. If we redefine rape as any sexual interaction where the woman feels used for sex, or fails to feel enthusiastic enjoyment, then all women have been raped and all men have committed rape.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

tacoma said:


> So when my wife woke me up with a blow job yesterday she was in the process of raping me?
> I would`ve had a case if I called a cop?


Seriously, someone answer my question.

My wife performing oral sex on me is the equivalent of a husband sexually touching his wife while she sleeps.
This cannot be argued against rationally.

So for those here who are espousing the concept that such action is rape or molestation I`d like to know if I was raped or molested.

Or does this concept only exist for the female of the species?
(This possible bias is the reason for my politically correct comment)
It`s ridiculous.

The entire exercise is ridiculous in the sense that the possibility of having sex while sleeping is exceptionally unlikely to the point of comedy.

So anyone in this thread who is stating that engaging in sexual touching or intercourse when one`s spouse is asleep is rape please answer my question.

Did she rape me by your consistent definition of this concept?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> In my own marriage, I have been guilty of initiating sex with my sleeping wife while I was also asleep. My wife thought it was sweet that my unconscious mind was still turned on by her enough to direct my body to engage in sex. But that's immaterial to your point. By your definition, since my wife could not give explicit consent, am I guilty of having "sleep-raped" my wife?


I`ve done this as well.

If there is any consistency in this weird idea then no you aren`t guilty because you weren`t conscious therefore you cannot be held accountable for your actions.

You cannot decide to have sex while unconscious any more than you can decide to consent to sex while unconscious.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> If drunken sex is a crime, then we're going to need to build more prisons.


They're building 'em.


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


No real impact on my ideas about how to pleasure a woman. Porn is porn, not love making.



> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


I don't feel inadequate. I'm actually amazed but the large amount of fugly men in the porn business. 



> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


I would consider it a violation. The partner is unable to give consent to the sexual act and their relationship status is irrelevant. No consent is assault/rape, legally speaking.



> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


Yes, it's fine to fantasize about sexual acts that's illegal and immoral as longs as you have no intention to make it a reality if given an opportunity. We all have urges and wandering minds.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MSP said:


> I don't watch it anymore, though I used to. I think the most harmful thing in this particular context for me was that I assumed I just had to stand around with my fly open and my wife would ravish me. Apparently, I have to actually make some moves, too. Who knew?


:rofl:


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> Tacoma:
> 
> Do you feel violated? If not, fantastic. If so, it would be looking into.


So...an act is only wrong if the one acted upon believes it`s wrong?
If I "Feel" it was wrong it was wrong?
What if at the time I felt it was right but now I`m feeling a little iffy about it?
Can I change my mind and call the cops tomorrow?

You must understand how ridiculously subjective that can be.
It`s dependent on any number of the persons emotions, moods, whims at any given time.



> Would you feel ok if your wife attempted to anally penetrate you while you were totally unconcious? Would you be ok with this if you found out later? Would you feel ok if you woke up in the middle of you wife penetrating you?


I`d spread my legs and reach into the toy drawer for lube.

However the comparison you give is moot, sexual touching is sexual touching regardless.




> For me, from dealing with my own sexual assault and consoling many of my friends it's imperative to me th I remain sexually autonomous, and being penetrated without my consent takes that away and would at the very least make me feel extremely violated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you give verbal consent every time your lover has sex with you?
Your lover asks verbally for consent every time he/she has sex with you?
You ask for verbal consent every time you have sex?
Your lover gives verbal consent every time?

There is no "implied consent" in your relationship?

I don`t think so.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


I don't watch porn anymore but I'm going by memory.

Well yes women do like to pleasure themselves but a lot are too timid to admit it. Alot of women do enjoy girl/girl stuff, don't know if they actually want to follow through with it but I've met heterosexual women who are only into that, might be because women can tell when other women are really enjoying sex and are turned off by the hardcore stuff. The humiliating stuff?....not so much.



> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


No



> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


This is a very interesting question. I don't know if I'd consider it rape because I don't know the intention of the person who does it. He might want to get a little kinky with his partner and so it's important to understand the dynamics of their relationship. That being said there appears to be a double standard with this. If a woman decides to initiate sex with her spouse while they were a sleep, I'm not sure many would cry rape or sexual assault. Quite the opposite actually. 



> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


No, with stuff like that you should nip it in the bud before it manifests itself into something sinister.


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## biology_driven (Feb 26, 2012)

You pose some interesting questions. I think a common thread here is what place does fantasy have in a relationship.

1. I suspect that porn has saved more relationships than it has destroyed. If your ex had a problem, I doubt it was caused by porn. That was just a symptom. And it wasn't your fault it was his.

I do not believe that men base their view of women on porn, unless they are pretty stupid (never discount that of course). By the same token I don't believe that romance novels distort women's view of men (OK maybe just a little.

Just remember that porn can be a useful outlet that is preferable to your partner engaging in extramarital activities with other women. Most relationships go through tough times, and this is one way for a male (or female) to relieve frustration.


2. If I choose to do so I can feel inadequate walking down the street. That would be silly, so no. BTW I don't know how you ladies feel about the males in adult movies, but I find some of the women rather disturbing - enormous fake breasts are not that exciting.

3. Consent is always required. Presumably asleep means the person would wake up and can say no. Unconscious (drugs, alcohol) sounds like rape to me. 

4. Fantasies are healthy. Breaking the law is not a good idea! 

From what I can tell from some rather unscientific surveys, being forced is more of a female fantasy than a male fantasy (check out a few romance novels). Yet obviously few (none) would ever want this to happen for real. But it can be a powerful fantasy for role play and so on. 

If your partner starts wearing a ski mask and stalks your neighbor then that may be more of an issue!


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

*sigh*

Unfortunately I am insanely busy with full-time study and looking for jobs, so this may be my last response in this thread. It has been really interesting hearing (or reading rather) other people's views on the matters originally raised.

With regard to the issue of consent vs a sleeping partner, I will say a few more things in response. I have been enjoying this discussion even if i have found it slightly disturbing at times, but unfortunately must turn my attention to my studies etc. So here goes...

1. Again, i don't think anyone here is saying consent is about "may i lick your right nipple?" "yes, i give you permission to lick my right nipple". When two conscious parties are engaging freely in sexual acts, there is a rhythm, an unspoken communication. There are times when I am with my husband, we are going in a certain direction, and if he goes too fast and jumps from kissing to trying to penetrate me, then i can say "babe, need a bit more work, sorry". Just because he jumps the gun a bit and i am not comfortable or ready for it (yet) does not constitute assault. I think we can agree on this point.

2. To whoever was talking about their wife waking them up with a bj... if it was not a problem for you, it was a risk she took but it was fortunate that you were happy about it afterwards, so no, it does not constitute assault. If your wife had her finger up your date and you woke up with that happening, and you felt okay about it, then lucky for you. That is a matter of personal preference, but to eliminate risk of unwanted sexual contact then it is ideal to discuss prior to launching yourself on an unconscious party. This is just common sense.

ALL i am saying is that if one party proceeds to engage in sexual acts with the other, unwanted sexual contact (aka assault, or whatever you want to call it) is a risk they are taking. It may be that the other person didn't mind, but it is safer to negotiate this prior to attempt because it is a risk. There are MANY women who would feel violated if such a thing were to happen to them. If you wouldn't mind your lady invading your arse whilst you're unconscious and you woke up to that, then all power to ya. But I think it is safe to say that many men WOULD mind. Some men in my experience actually like waking up to a bj, but it's not something i would attempt unless i knew already that they wouldn't mind. Touching in the morning when you are both waking up, well maybe some partners would feel violated but one could be forgiven for assuming not.

To argue that an unconscious party is unable to give consent is logical and not over the top political correctness. No one here is saying that you need verbal or written consent for each and every progression of a sexual act on every single occassion. That is ridiculous.

If you start feeling your wife up in your sleep and she doesn't care, good luck to you. If she does, i'm sure you'll have a rude awakening.

Someone analysed my situation with my ex and made a bunch of comments which i don't have time to repeat, but my response is... my partner did not seek my consent before the first time he did it, and on this occassion I woke up with him trying to penetrate me anally. It's not something we had talked about before or agreed to try, and i did indicate to him that i wasn't happy about him doing that. After that, he penetrated me a number of times in my sleep, and as indicated earlier, i burst into tears on a number of occassions and told him i did not want him to do it again, but he repeated his actions. Not sure how you can say that was implied consent, i was bloody unconscious and when i was conscious i expressed myself clearly about it.

Thanks again for the thoughtful discussion. I may come back in a week or so, but at the moment need to get into the books.

Feel free to PM me if you desperately want a response to something you have to say, and i will do my best to respond

Cheers


Sarah


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

QuietSoul said:


> . my partner did not seek my consent before the first time he did it, and on this occassion I woke up with him trying to penetrate me anally. It's not something we had talked about before or agreed to try, and i did indicate to him that i wasn't happy about him doing that. After that, he penetrated me a number of times in my sleep, and as indicated earlier, i burst into tears on a number of occassions and told him i did not want him to do it again, but he repeated his actions. Not sure how you can say that was implied consent, i was bloody unconscious and when i was conscious i expressed myself clearly about it.
> Sarah


What you are talking about is rape. There is no getting around it.


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

QuietSoul said:


> 1. Presuming you have watched porn before... have you developed your ideas about what women like based on porn? Eg, all women like to pleasure themselves, like being with other women, like weird positions and having humiliating stuff done to them etc


Porn has definitely distorted my view of female sexuality. Ive struggled a long time with how women should be sexually. In terms of frequency of sex, masturbation, and how easily they should get turned on or reach orgasm. The other weird stuff like positions or humiliation does nothing for me personally. 



QuietSoul said:


> 2. Again on the topic of porn... have you felt inadequate after seeing the guys in porn films, and do you think all women want massive guys?


I think porn can distort your view on how "male parts" should look, both when flacid and erect. And yes, I think if women had to pick they would go after 'massive' guys. I know and have heard enough that size doesn't necessarily mean they are studs in bed. But I can still feel inadequate when I see a particularly large dude in porn.



QuietSoul said:


> 3. Hypothetically, if a guy was to...erm..."help himself" to his partner whilst she was asleep or otherwise unconscious, would you personally consider this assault/rape? Why or why not?


I'll admit, this has crossed my mind - but only if I thought my wife was actually was 'into it'. But if she thinks this is creepy/bad/not cool, I would NEVER do it. Its all predicated on her actually being receptive to it. 



QuietSoul said:


> 4. Finally, do you think it is okay to fantasise about something in your mind that in reality would be morally wrong to carry out? Eg, sex with underaged person or an unwilling partner


No, thats not normal. I think thats seriously screwed up.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

QuietSoul said:


> ALL i am saying is that if one party proceeds to engage in sexual acts with the other, unwanted sexual contact (aka assault, or whatever you want to call it) is a risk they are taking.


And this is the part that I'm uncomfortable with. Sex is risky enough, and we are already vulnerable enough, without the added possibility of prosecution thrown into the mix. If my wife were to say to me that she would like me to be more sexually adventurous, but if I go too far, she will call the police, then I would either shut down and never introduce anything new into sex, or I would go back to your ridiculous #1 scenario of asking for explicit permission before every act. I might even draw up some waivers outlining the night's planned activities that we could sign and have notarized that afternoon. Just so there's no confusion.



QuietSoul said:


> If you wouldn't mind your lady invading your arse whilst you're unconscious and you woke up to that, then all power to ya. But I think it is safe to say that many men WOULD mind.


I would definitely mind. But, I wouldn't call the police.



QuietSoul said:


> ... my partner did not seek my consent before the first time he did it, and on this occassion I woke up with him trying to penetrate me anally. It's not something we had talked about before or agreed to try, and i did indicate to him that i wasn't happy about him doing that. After that, he penetrated me a number of times in my sleep, and as indicated earlier, i burst into tears on a number of occassions and told him i did not want him to do it again, but he repeated his actions. Not sure how you can say that was implied consent, i was bloody unconscious and when i was conscious i expressed myself clearly about it.


You have experienced a different scenario than we are discussing. At least, after the first time. Once you've explicitly withdrawn your consent for a particular act, then there is obviously not implied consent. Did you file a police report?


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## QuietSoul (Feb 11, 2012)

No, I did not file a report . The only time I thought of mentioning ot to the police was when I was aranging to get an AVO. We.had been broken up for a while and he kept contacting me, coming to my house, workplace, church, stuffing presents through my letter box, calling my home phone after I had my mobile changed. By this stage I had repeatedly asked.him not to contact me and.he kept at it. He even attempted suicide. I still feel sorry for him, he was so messed up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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