# Silent and Cruel wife



## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

I have been married for about 10 years now to my wife. She has abandoned me entirely emotionally and sexually. I have been very good to her and given her all that I could throughout the time I've known her. 

About two and a half years ago, she shut down entirely and we haven't had sex since. I have tried to talk to her and reason with her through long letters, e-mails, etc. and even though she has STOPPED entirely, I still continued to be a husband to her since this is what I pledged on our wedding day and I am a man of my word.

I have pampered her with gifts, make each occassion as big and as wonderful as I can, etc. But each time I have tried to talk to my wife, she becomes mute and will not say a word. So last night, after saying a few things, I though I would do the same thing and see how long she would last with me being mute as well.

I sat there for almost an hour and she said nothing. As soon as I got up, she went straight to bed without one single word. Have any of you ever had a wife or husband do you this way and what is your advice for me. I am becoming more and more depressed and I have done everything I know to do to be her husband and woo her back but she simply refuses to hear me.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Two years is a long time... you must do something.

For starters stop showering her with gifts.

You take the high road don't play her game (don't sink to her level)

You need to look in the mirror deeply and objectively and see where you may have failed her in the past or currently.

You need to focus your communication and make each session count.

Let her know in no uncertain terms that you are unhappy and that you find the current marital arrangement unacceptable.

Don't accept the unacceptable.

Shake things up.. do something different
Corner her and make her tell you whats up? Don't let her squirm away.

After that let time work.. give her space.
Don't be afraid of your wife.. you are sexless use it to your advantage.

My wife turned off emotions for me and withheld sex for over 3 years, she is better now.
Be yourself but better.


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## 2dumb2knowbetter (Oct 15, 2012)

Fell your pain brother. Nothing worse than marriage falling apart. Yours clearly is. Mine already has.

You'll get alot of advice on here about books to read, being alpha male and manning up, living your own life and not worrying about her anymore, suggestions that she's having an affair. It's all good advice and well meaning. But there is no easy answer. 

Fact is she's just not into you anymore, for whatever reason. Maybe you're not successful enough, not ambitious enough, just not sexy or interesting to her anymore. But you can't change who you are. If she doen't love who you are , you can't chage your personality in the hopes that she will be in love with you again. If you do you are not being true to yourself, and that's most important.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say she's no longer "into" you. She could be suffering from depression and not "into" anyone or even herself. Tell her you want the marriage to work and you're willing to saw your end of the log but you aren't dragging her into the future. She's an adult, she has words. She knows how to use them. There are no passengers in the marriage canoe. A decision to not contribute to the marriage is a decision to be abandoned. If that doesn't work, follow through by spending less and less time at home. Children learn very young that unfriendly kids play alone. Your wife has forgotten that lesson and needs a reminder. Tell her you choose to be happy, contented, and loved, for the remainder of your time on this earth. If she chooses to be a pissed off, sullen, victim, she will do so alone.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Mark, I've followed you for awhile & your story has to be the worst I've read. How can a spouse be that uncaring & hateful & since you haven't left, then why hasn't she? Does she get some large cash settlement, if you leave first?? My 1st wife cheated on me as the final blow to get out of a marriage she no longer wanted because she knew that would make me agreeable for divorce & even she wasn't as sinister as how your wife is treating you. I would stop being nice & completely ignore her, she has to be getting some kind of sick pleasure out of torturing you so don't let her anymore? I don't know how anger & resentment hasn't consumed you. I still fight that in my current situation. Save yourself, buddy.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Treat it like as if you were dating. How would you have reacted to the way she is acting now (sexually and otherwise) if you were just dating? You'd likely have thrown her out on her ear a long time ago.

In a relationship, she has to 'earn' you every bit as much as you have to earn her. If she's not earning you, start making an exit plan, prepare for divorce, and once you are ready have a talk with her and give her a few months to turn things around or you're walking.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks for the advice 2dumb2knowbetter. And to Plan 9, life before dating was never absolute fireworks but she claimed she loved me intensely and I of course did love her intensely. I have always showered her with gifts and have done everything I knew to do to make her happy from the very beginning.

Our sex life has always been one-sided most of the time as I have pleasured her far more times than she has me. I didn't mind at first since I loved her so much, but after awhile, it was plainly obvious that she wasn't into me (my body). 

I have never cheated on her and have never had anyone but her but she has had other people besides me and the fact is, she has done much more with them in a little over a year's time than she has done with me in almost 10 years. This of course really hurts and only adds insult to injury but she will not listen to anything I say.

In the beginning, if I ever tried to talk to her about our sex life, she would get HYPER sensitive and manipulate me like crazy effectively shutting down the conversation. She would make me feel guilty and bad for even bringing up the fact that I desired more blow jobs, or hand jobs, or sex even though she found no problem giving these things to her past lovers in abundance.

I don't know if she has cheated on me in the past or now but I have snooped through her e-mails last year and I saw dozens of e-mails to a guy who was much much older than her as well as one e-mail from a male classmate from High School that used to like her.

She has told me none of this of course. So the real answer as to whether she is cheating on me is I don't really know. 

And to unbelievable, she isn't depressed but actually highly proud of her self and her life especially outside of me. She teaches at a University and is very happy except when I try to talk to her. As I stated above to Plan 9, she found NO PROBLEM being EXTREMELY sexual with previous lovers so she is not LD either.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well, you can purchase a voice activated recorder(VAR) and place it in her car. If there is someone else you should find out within a week or so. Good VARs are only about $60.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

At this point she knows you won't leave her. After 2.5 years of no sex and having that attitude towards you, and you still stay. She is in control of the whole marriage.

No more gifts, no more talking about your sex life with her (clearly not working). She is walking all over you Mark!!

What did the emails say?

So she is into sex but not with you, then who? You need to get a Voice activated recorder in her car. Is she guarding her phone, soes she text?

Also, i hope that is not your real name (Mark Ford)


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I'd definately investigate further if she's having an affair, even if it's just so you can rule it out. And I agree with tom67, get a VAR. Get a keylogger too, as she could be going to wesbites that you don't know about. Do you have access to her office computer as well? If so, install one on there, as long as it's not going to get her fired. If you have GPS, see if you can see where she's been going and if there is any weird places, or any places she goes to often that she shouldn't be. If you don't have GPS, get a system that keeps track of trips.

And I'm not defending your wife when I say this, but just because she wasn't LD a decade ago with other men does not mean she isn't LD now. Even if she is really HD, she's not HD for you, and that's the reality you have to deal with. The only real question you have to ask (besides if she's having an affair) is if you can turn her into HD (or less LD) towards you or not. If not, are you going to stay?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Whether or not she is cheating, how could you live like this for the rest of your life-I couldn't jmo.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

When someone stonewalls you it is really them being manipulative and immature. 

Here's the thing: you can't make someone do what they do n't want to. 

So........either she works on this with you or she doesn't. I she doesn't, then you need to decide if you want to stay in a marriage with someone who refuses to have sex with you and also refuses to talk about it. 

Is she depressed? Having an affair? What is going on in her life?

Women tend to lose sexual attraction to someone they don't feel emotionally connected to. BUT 2.5 years is a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks Wounded Warrior. I've always thought my situation was pretty bad and I've had a hard time finding ANY guy with a situation half as bad as mine among my peers that I know. All of my friends and acquaintances and their wives have multiple babies/children and a pretty active sex life.

All of her friends have babies/children and many are pregnant now so I can only assume there is something going on. This of course doesn't phase her knowing ALL her friends have children while we have NONE. 

I've never understood how my wife can be so cruel either and have never really found a woman who treats her husband so badly. Her previous lovers didn't do a quarter of what I've done for her or do for her but. As for her behavior towards me, I have truly wondered deep down if she doesn't derive some twisted and sick pleasure from torturing me and to be honest, anger and resentment has consumed me oftentimes, but I am a Christian and try my best to conceal that anger and resentment since the Bible tells us not to be embittered against our wives.

However, it has been EXTREMELY hard not to be. And to Kingsfan, I believe everything you stated except I don't believe in divorce unless of course I do find out for sure that she has or is cheating on me.

Thanks Tom for the advice or the VAR. I will definitely try to get one. And to Jerry, the e-mails talked about day to day life in detail as a woman would tell her best friend or husband and never crossed that "line" but you could tell from the e-mails that there was a closeness between them.

Of note, this was the University's e-mail service so they may have been being careful so as to not be caught saying anything since she is married. Who knows what they said to each other in person or via another e-mail service or letters. And lastly, why do you hope my real name isn't Mark Ford?


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Tom, I don't know if I can live like this much longer, thus my depression and also my reason for being on this site. To Plan 9, her past lovers weren't what you'd call bad boys and they certainly weren't "party" animals. I am much more outgoing than they were and are.

There was no drinking involved in her past relationships and no real party scene either. However, it is true they never treated her as good as I have tried my best to treat her.

And yes JellyBean, 2.5 years is a LONG time especially when seeing all of our friends getting pregnant, and being SUPER frisky/horny and affectionate while around us yet this doesn't ring any bells for her. She is not depressed but actually quite happy with her life unless I try to talk to her.

Thanks everyone for all of your quick, helpful and kind advice.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> I've never understood how my wife can be so cruel either and have never really found a woman who treats her husband so badly.


Have you bluntly asked her this actually as you have stated it here? Perhaps she's so far out of touch she doesn't even know she's treating you badly, as odd as that sounds.



Mark Ford said:


> Her previous lovers didn't do a quarter of what I've done for her or do for her but.


And if that mattered to her, she'd be all over you 4x as often as she was on them. Obviously that isn't the answer, so do yourself a favor and stop offering to do whatever it is you do. It's not something that motivates her.



Mark Ford said:


> As for her behavior towards me, I have truly wondered deep down if she doesn't derive some twisted and sick pleasure from torturing me and to be honest, anger and resentment has consumed me oftentimes, but I am a Christian and try my best to conceal that anger and resentment since the Bible tells us not to be embittered against our wives.


She very well could get some pleasure from it, though I doubt the pleasure is from torturing you. Rather the pleasure could come from controlling you. Some people feed on power to boost their ego, and from what little you have written here, it seems that, at least when it comes to your sex life, she is in complete control. She owns you, and your penis. It is basically her's, because she controls everything it does outside of when you take a piss (and I hope she's not dictating that). That is a HUGE power trip for some people, especially women. 

Did any of her past lovers use her, or abuse her, or manipulate her in anyway? If so, she may get a lot of pleasure from 'turning the tables' and being the one in charge now. Even though you didn't do anything bad to her, she's finally in charge and enjoying it, and has done so for a decade.

Another idea could be that those past lovers were more take charge and demanding, which may have been a turn on for her. You aren't that way, so it's less appealing.



Mark Ford said:


> However, it has been EXTREMELY hard not to be. And to Kingsfan, I believe everything you stated except I don't believe in divorce unless of course I do find out for sure that she has or is cheating on me.


And that's fine, I'd never advocate for a divorce unless it was a really bad situation. Christian or not though, your wife is breaking her vows to you, you don't have to be so steadfast in your vows to her. You'd never convince anyone that if you were told this is how your sexlife would be that you'd have agreed to get married still.

I sense from what you have posted that this controlling attitude of hers extends to the rest of the marriage as well, since she's free to not shower you with gifts, not talk to you, etc. I have no idea what type of marriage you thought you were getting, but I'd wager it isn't the type that is going on right now for you, in or out of bed.

I'm not saying get a divorce, but at least open your mind to the idea of it and give it a legitimate contemplation because if you stay, you will be this unhappy, or perhaps even more so, for the rest of your life. All so you can say you were a good boy and didn't divorce. That's your call, but it doesn;t seem like a great reason to waste your life away to me.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

..and you don't Thank the guy who solved his sexless marriage and is giving you solid advice to actually reverse it and get your wife to be happier also.

I was pretty close to your situation. Those here can attest to that fact as my story has been fairly well documented here.

You created it.

You allowed it.

Bottom line is you need to make it unsustainable over time. Then eventually your wife will see that is not what she wants. At the same time you need to become a better you. So she can return to you.

No quick fix.. just the right one.
Takes work. Hard work.

Quit the pity trip and do something about it. Its your life you are the one hurt by your own life choice. While its nice to come here and get advice in reality what you are doing isn't working... your situation is bad. Unacceptable...and bringing your family down.

Don't accept it. Start with that mindset. Forge your own path.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> And yes JellyBean, 2.5 years is a LONG time especially when seeing all of our friends getting pregnant, and being SUPER frisky/horny and affectionate while around us yet this doesn't ring any bells for her. She is not depressed but actually quite happy with her life unless I try to talk to her.


How old are you guys?

My advice is to NEVER grovel/beg.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

First of all, you say you don't believe in breaking the marriage vows. While admirable, you must realize that she has already broken her vows thus voiding the marriage contract

Her refusal to have sexual relations with you shows that you have a roommate type situation, not a marriage

Second, I am willing to bet she's been having at least an inappropriate relationship with one of these guys. Start investigating QUIETLY, This means VAR in car, keylogger on PC and get into your cell phone bill online and look for alot of texts/calls to one or two numbers you don't know

Good luck


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> How old are you guys?
> 
> My advice is to NEVER grovel/beg.


Great advice.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

If by some strange twist of fate she gets on here she will know its you. And she will see all the advice you are getting. If she is cheating she will know you're onto her. 


Do a search on here for "Red flags"... I bet she matches most of them. 

Is she an attractive woman, has she lost weight, bought sexy underwear in the last year? 

On a scale of 1-10. What is she and what are you in terms of sex rank/attractiveness?

By your posts it seems you are the classic nice guy. Most if not all woman are not attracted to that. The nicer you are and the more gifts you give makes her do the opposite of what you think should happen. You need to change yourself!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh, and don't ever,ever confront her about her possible cheating until you have evidence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

To Kingsfan, I have told her the same things I have stated on here. Her past lovers didn't abuse her and it is possible they were more take charge or controlling but I don't know for sure. From the way she has told me in the past, she was just extremely horny and sexual with them doing very risque and crazy sexual things with them in all types of places.

To Toffer and Kingsfan, I do agree as well that in reality, she has broken her marriage vows and therefore basically divorced me. My beliefs however don't allow me to divorce unless of course she is unfaithful. 

Jellybean, we are in our 30's. I have grovelled/begged a few times to my shame.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> To Toffer and Kingsfan, I do agree as well that in reality, she has broken her marriage vows and therefore basically divorced me. My beliefs however don't allow me to divorce unless of course she is unfaithful.


I will never say go against your beliefs. That said, are you beliefs worth having this level of misery until you die?


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> I have always showered her with gifts and have done everything I knew to do to make her happy from the very beginning.
> 
> Our sex life has always been one-sided most of the time as I have pleasured her far more times than she has me. I didn't mind at first since I loved her so much, but after awhile, it was plainly obvious that she wasn't into me (my body).


That says a lot. You, my man, are a "nice guy". Do some research on that term, and why "nice guys" turn women off.

You shower her with gifts. Stop. That's telling her in her mind somewhere you're tryin to "buy" her affection. That YOU FEEL that you alone, without gifts, are not enough for her. It may have been fun for her at first, but she has grown to resent you for it...even if she likes the gifts.

Gifts are "earned". Because she deserves them (and yes, on special days like bday, xmas). Do NOT ever give a gift or flowers to a woman because you're "sorry". Or because you screwed up. Or because she's pizzed at you for nothing you did. OR, because she rocked your world in bed. Or treated you especially nice. Those are times for WORDS....not gifts! TELL her you're sorry if you screwed up...and mean it. Tell her you love her and / or "thank you" when she does good things...and mean it. Save the gifts for special occassions AND for "no reason at all" times. The "just because I love you" times (when she has consistently treated you well). When she does treat you well, give her the "gift" of having your attention, respect, and love.

Some may disagree with that, but a gift or flowers that has no strings attached (because you screwed up or because she gave you a blowjob the night before) will have MUCH more meaning to her than ones received as a "reward" or "sorry". Do not directly associate gifts with momentary good or bad actions. 

Stop letting your sex life be one sided....if and when it ever starts back up again.

Stop "loving her so much" that you put your wants, needs, desires such a distant second to a woman who could care less about yours. She needs to EARN, not just be "given" being placed with or ahead of you.

Over the years, the more she pushed away, the more you tried to pull her back in by being clingly, nice, doing things for her, etc. Am I right? Because you feel "lucky to have her". Because you've got her on a pedestal. Well, UNLESS she is also doing the same to you (mutually adoring each other), it is turning her the hell off. The harder you try, the more she resents you.

Why?

Because you're showing her you have no self respect. That you will not look out for yourself. In the back of the dark recesses of her animal brain somewhere that is telling her YOU are not good enough for her because YOU clearly think yourself you are not good enough for her.

If she is having an affair, my guess is her resentment of you as a "nice guy" started before the affair, not the other way around.

Stop playing "tit for tat" with her. That's childish and pathetic. When she goes silent and ignores you, you DO not sulk, pout, or give her the silent treatment. You do get off your azz, and get out of the house for a run. Or hit the gym. Or have a couple with the guys. Then come back home and continue living your life. Without showering her with gifts and kissing her azz. Make sure she knows you had a good time on these outings by your demeanor. Do not tell her...show her. A satisified smile on your face when you come in sweaty from a run. Out with the guys? Come back happy and "tired", and tell her you're going to bed early because you've got to get up early for a run or to go to work the next day.

She will put up a b!tch about this when you do. She'll tell you you're "always out", or "abandoning her", or "don't pay enough attention to her". You need to learn about these "chit tests" (fitness tests), and learn how to "answer them". And it's not by caving in, apologizing, or giving up what you want to do (especially when the woman you're supporting could give a chit about you herself).

YOU are responsible for YOUR happiness. Not her. Start acting that way, and she'll notice. She'll notice that you are happy, that you are taking care of your needs, and you are doing things to better yourself. Before long she'll feel like she's being "left behind" and "left out" of your life. If your changes are positive, if she fears she may lose you as a result of these changes and change of attitude and demeanor, she will, if she hasn't completely fallen for someone else already, start chasing you again.

To put it simply, be good to yourself and watch out for YOU! When she starts treating you good, THEN you can start being good to her. 

Stop trying to "nice" your way to a womans heart. That may initially snag you the weak ones, but if that's all you've got going for you is being "nice", they'll lose interest. 

"Cat string theory". You pull a string around the house, the cat chases it. Goes nuts. Everyone is laughing having a great time...including the cat. You then drop the string on the floor. The cat walks up, sniffs it, looks at it for a moment, then turns away bored and uninterested.

You need a good "push-pull" dynamic in a relationship. One sided relationships where one is always pulling and the other i allways pushing never work in the long run. And what you need to understand is anger, pouting, silent treatment, etc., on your part is NOT constructive pushing! You can't "push" something that is already moving away from you. You "push" constructively by GETTING A LIFE and interests outside of the relationship, by not rewarding bad behavior, and by bettering yourself.

Try it. And don't fold like a cheap tent the first time she puts up a little resistence. Dig deep, know what you want, and then follow through. "The one who has the ability to walk away from the relationship holds all the power"....as you are so clearly seeing now. "Ability" is not just saying it. Or threatening it. It is going about your life in a way that she (and every other woman out there) will notice you are taking care of yourself, have the confidence and security to take care of yourself and pursue things you want out of life. THAT includes a healthy, loving relationship. But nobody, including her, will believe for a moment that you are capable of pursuing that when you're kissing her azz for treating you badly. That just screams to her (and everyone else) "she's the best I can do. She treats me like chit, but she's the best I can do". 

She KNOWS she can get away with treating you like this because you are showing her you have no other "options" and will tolerate it. And it is turning her the hell off.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Jellybean, we are in our 30's. I have grovelled/begged a few times to my shame.


STOP begging. It makes you unattractive (it makes anyone unattractive). Hm... as a woman in my 30s I have to say my libido is higher now than when in my 20s so....something is up.

What does she resent you for? Either way, she has DEF and IS breaking you vows.

Do not do not do not grovel.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My grandmother used to say we all lived in the hell of our own making. Mark, although you have my complete sympathy, if you continue trying to love a woman who clearly doesn't love you, you are living the hell you have created. You have created it because you have done nothing to end it. How dare ANY spouse be so cruel and unfeeling? How dare ANY spouse completely ignore the emotional needs and love of the other? How dare she treat you so coldly and dismissively? How does she dare do it? Because you accept it. Because you feel pain yet put on a brave face. Because you feel unloved and dismissed, yet continue to do your level best as a husband.

Create your own life by engaging in activities you enjoy. State your expectations for your wife, clearly and without negotiation. Let her know her marriage and financial security and not assured. You two can live apart without getting divorced, she can pay for her own life, while you pay for yours.

I cannot believe any Christian teaching would encourage you to stay in a relationship as cruel and vacant as this one. I think you are forgetting that God helps those who help themselves. I think you are assuming that God is going to make your marriage better when it's also possible that God really wasn't all that enthused in the first place but decided to let free will have at it. If you want God to help you, give God something to work with here!


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Do you make a lot of money?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You have been approaching her with a "chase" attitude. You're chasing her and she's running away. That dynamic has to change. If you pull away, then there's a chance that she'll start chasing you. It seems counter intuitive, but it often works. Start doing your own thing. Don't buy her ANY gifts. No extras, no luxuries. Get your own hobby and life. Start going out with friends, don't invite her and don't even mention that you're going. Just go. Start to pull back, start to detach. She'll intuitively sense it....and if it bothers her she'll start to chase you. If it doesn't bother her, well then she's "done" anyway and would come back no matter how well you treat her.

Keep in mind that by treating her well when she treats you poorly, you are reinforcing her behavior and "training" her how to treat you. The worse she treats you the better you treat her, so she'll subconsciously treat you even worse since that's the way to get more gifts and better treatment.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I cannot believe any Christian teaching would encourage you to stay in a relationship as cruel and vacant as this one. I think you are forgetting that God helps those who help themselves. I think you are assuming that God is going to make your marriage better when it's also possible that God really wasn't all that enthused in the first place but decided to let free will have at it. If you want God to help you, give God something to work with here!


Some do, but the bigger issue is how one interprets those teachings. What one person may take as a statement, another person interprets it as a binding rule.

I was like this for a long time, it is why I stayed in my marriage for so long, because I felt I had to. That divorce was evil or wrong, that only if my wife cheated on me did I have a chance to leave, and even then I didn't because I felt like I owed it to God to try to fix the marriage. I even at one time felt my marriage was my suffering that I was to accomplish on earth to guarantee my way into Heaven.

It wasn't until I started to study my religious beliefs more that I looked into where they came from. Not all of what we are taught is what was actually preached in the Bible. Somethings, like the Ten Commandments, were (or seem to be based on what I've learned) but others have been transformed or morphed over time to fit the way the church has wanted them to fit. 

I don't want to starta big religious debate here. My point was that it's not really so much the teachings as it is the person reading them and how strictly they apply them. To me, the bible and other spiritual readings are more guidelines, with some rules included here and there, but done so with an understanding that as long as you do your best, God will guide you the rest of the way because you have a good heart and want to what's best. Others though take every word as a strict command to be completely obeyed, or else.

It's why some go as far as to say pre-maritial sex, oral/anal sex, condoms and even swearing are a sin.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Keep in mind that by treating her well when she treats you poorly, you are reinforcing her behavior and "training" her how to treat you. The worse she treats you the better you treat her, so she'll subconsciously treat you even worse since that's the way to get more gifts and better treatment.


Absolutely spot on and wonderful advice. You are validating her treatment of you to the point she could start to think that is the right way to treat you. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions go against your words and indicate you actually prefer not to have sex, since you still shower her with gifts despite 2.5 years without any sexual activity.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> My beliefs however don't allow me to divorce unless of course she is unfaithful.



Marriage is a partnership. If you compare it to a business partnership, you can't keep a business contract with someone who isn't honoring their side of the arrangement. It's no different here.

Another question is, is she as devout as you are? Because you can also appeal to her to honor her wedding vows.

You haven't mentioned if you have tried marriage counseling (or if you did, I didn't see it). Seems like that is the best solution at this point because you two are just not communicating and you are all over the map trying to guess what she is doing or how she is feeling. Get some help there!


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

No. Marriage counseling takes two people that want to fix their marriage. His wife is not actively engaged in their marriage.

He needs to quietly investigate his wifes actions. Definitely a VAR in the car and maybe one in the house where she talks to others when you are not at home.

He also needs to checkout the cell phone bill and her work email if possible.

But the most important place to improve your marriage starts with you.

Get your head in gear. Do the things that make you happy without her. Go out with friends and make new friends. 

Show your wife that you can live your life without her.

Look at the 180 method. Improve yourself without her. She will either begin to notice the changes in you and question your actions or she will ignore you and further detach.

And Jellybeans is right. No begging. No pleading.

Stop thinking with your head and your heart. Start thinking with your [email protected]

You might think this is going against the grain but it works.

HM64


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford-

Hi Mark,

Before I make any comment, I have a question for you. What was happening in your lives round about the time she started shutting you down? Was it a night and day thing or was it gradual?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

happyman64 said:


> No. Marriage counseling takes two people that want to fix their marriage. His wife is not actively engaged in their marriage.


He can at least give her that choice. And if/when he makes it clear that divorce is a real option, then she suddenly might be willing to become engaged in their marriage and go to counseling.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

To Kingsfan, while I appreciate your advice, I can assure you I actually DO know what the Bible states since I have read it myself 37 times. It is quite clear in regards to grounds for divorce and if you believe in the Scriptures as the monitor of your life and not merely some guidelines you can "choose" to follow or not, then divorce is only an option when the spouse is unfaithful.

In saying that, I wish it weren't completely so since there have been many times when I wished for divorce but as the Scriptures state, God's thoughts and ways aren't mine and if I choose Him, I deny myself even to the extent of hating father, mother, sister, brother and even myself in comparison to Him. Luke 14:26.

So for those who accept Scripture as God's Word, there is no wiggle room and Scripture also doesn't teach that ANYONE is good without God and there is none righteous no not one. Therefore, the teaching of Humanism that everyone has good in their hearts is NOT a Christian teaching although it has been taught in the church countless times.

That is all I will say in regards to my beliefs since I don't wish to get a large religious discussion going by those are my beliefs and those are the beliefs of those who interpret Scripture as God's Word. 2 Peter 1:20 tells us plainly that there aren't a myriad ways or possibilities to interpret Scripture for one's own agenda.

For those who believe that way, that is their right but for me, I believe that if God's Word states it as in God hates Divorce, well then God hates divorce.

Kingsfan and WorkingonMe, I completely agree that I am possibly enabling her to treat me badly and even worse. I suppose I do need to stop.

Plan 9, she does claim to be a sincere believer but doesn't live a Christian life at all. She never reads her Bible, or prays and she lies profusely to me and others. She is very arrogant, conceited and selfish as well. I have asked her about counseling at a church even one far off so that no one would know that we went to counseling but she has refused.

I have also reminded her of her marriage vows not only in front of way over 150+ people, but most importantly to God but this doesn't phase her.

Happyman64,I agree that do need to start doing things that make me happy and distance myself from her since she is toxic and poisonous to me. I have started a list.

MarkTwain, it was just all of a sudden around 2010. She was gradually shutting down more and more before this, but around the end of 2010, she just completely shut down and has been this way ever since growing more and more complacent and jaded every day.

I appreciate again all of the advice. I don't really have many people to talk to and even though I may not agree with your advice such as religious advice, I still do appreciate that you took the time to talk to me and try to help me. This is more than my wife has done and I am sincerely grateful to you all.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I have not read all the replies so I apologize in advance if its already been mentioned. 

IMO, I think when you have one spouse who has done everything they could, done nothing wrong etc, and one spouse who has just checked out and its not because the other spouse has had a hand in that happening, then the spouse who has checked out, perhaps, has either some mental issues that maybe has gone undiagnosed, or maybe they have done something they feel lots of guilt over and the only way they know how to act is to punish the other spouse. 

Of course this is just my opinion, its not a fact. BUT, I see so many posts where one spouse has tried everything, done nothing wrong, been there for their spouse etc, all the while the other spouse has just simply checked out. I'm also a firm believer that people don't just wake up one morning and say, hey I think I will shut down, or not be nice to my spouse, or ignore them etc. IMO, something had to have happened along the way for that person to change. Hard to say what it was that caused them to change, but still bottom line, if divorce is not an option for you, then I'm afraid it looks as if this is your life. Unless she does a complete turn around and wakes up, gets help, and wants to check back in the marriage etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> I have also reminded her of her marriage vows not only in front of way over 150+ people, but most importantly to God but this doesn't phase her.


In front of 150+ people? What was the situation for this? Did you tell the 150+ people what was going on in your marriage?

Now did she react to this?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> In front of 150+ people? What was the situation for this? Did you tell the 150+ people what was going on in your marriage?
> 
> Now did she react to this?


..and your timing was way off. (OP's)

You don't start a war with nukes. You end a war with nukes.
You prepare to start a war by bolstering your own defenses.

Guess most of the sexless/suffering husbands are TERRIBLE poker players or commanders.

TIMING is everything! EVERYTHING.

Know your enemy... you.

Mark you need to man up... and open your eyes.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Elegirl, I was referencing our Marriages vows in front of 150+ people. We wrote our own vows which COMPLETELY dedicated our lives to each other and GAVE ourselves to each other as is the commandment in the Bible according to 1 Corinthians chapter 7 in that the wife belongs to the husband and the husband belongs to the wife and they don't belong to themselves any longer.

This is the vow she took of her own accord and helped write these vows saying that she believed this too without any pressure from me. She wrote her own vows without my former knowledge and I wrote mine as it were secretly.

So we didn't know what the other was going to say on the wedding day, however, this is what she vowed of her own accord and that is why I stated the 150+ people comment as well as to God.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

"1 Corinthians chapter 7 in that the wife belongs to the husband and the husband belongs to the wife and they don't belong to themselves any longer."

So when did your wife divorce you?

Where in there does it say she need to be kind or have sex with you. She is yours and probably sometimes hates it but puts up with you.

That 150+ comment WEAK at best. It was meant to strong arm her into doing something she doesn't care to because of the way you are to her.

What you are doing is not working.. think outside your little world to affect real change in her. and YOU.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

The vows I get, I'm married as well, however people change, for whatever reason(s) As hard as that is to believe, people do change. The thing is ,you need to get to the bottom of what the change has been for her.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

trey69 said:


> The vows I get, I'm married as well, however people change, for whatever reason(s) As hard as that is to believe, people do change. The thing is ,you need to get to the bottom of what the change has been for her.


:iagree: Without that you have nothing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

For some reason a book I read a long time ago came to mine with this thread... 

_*Games People Play: The Psychology of Human Relationships* M. D. Eric Berne_

I think it would help you quite a bit to read it.

What is going on in your marriage is a game. It takes at least 2 to play the game. If you want things to change, then you have to stop playing your side of it.

One way to do this is to treat her according to the 180 (see link below). the 180 is not about treating your spouse badly or ending all communication. It's about you stopping being bought into the emotional games going on.

The work on customizing the 180 to your situation. The 180 is about doing thing the complete opposite of how you have been doing them. What you are doing is not working. So stop doing it.

For example, from here on out only buy her gifts on days like XMas, her birthday, Valentine's day. And don't be too extravagant.. gifts can be nice without going overboard.

For now, stop talking to her about the way you feel and what you need. Communicate with her via actions. Actions speak louder than words anyway.
Start working out, going places, find things that make you happy. A person who is unhappy and complaining is not attractive at all. Who wants to be around that? So make yourself a happy, productive person that most people would want to be with. You will start to get her attention. And if you don’t get her attention… well you will be happy and in a much better place.

Could you give a list of some of the things that you do for her that you think she does not appreciate?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> I have been married for about 10 years now to my wife. She has abandoned me entirely emotionally and sexually. I have been very good to her and given her all that I could throughout the time I've known her.
> 
> About two and a half years ago, she shut down entirely and we haven't had sex since. I have tried to talk to her and reason with her through long letters, e-mails, etc. and even though she has STOPPED entirely, I still continued to be a husband to her since this is what I pledged on our wedding day and I am a man of my word.
> 
> ...


Mark, your marriage has been over for a long time. This is a living arangement maybe due to finances or for the kids but it's not a marriage and it hasn't been. Now you can try to nice your way out of this but obviously it doesn't work.

Stop being dense and begging for emotional bread crumbs. You deserve to be treated better than you're treating yourself now. And make no mistake you are the violator of your own self worth by accepting this way of life for over two years.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I agree with EleGirl to begin doing things opposite of what you normally do (the 180 approach) but I don't agree with the constant responses that this is all your doing and your fault and that you caused it, so fix it. People change, become selfish, hateful etc for no good reason & not want to be married anymore and there is nothing you can do about it. My ex decided after 7 happy years that the single life was suddenly more appealing to her. She started seeing being married as "rules" and "restrictions", she started running the bars, leaving me with our young sons etc. After I wouldn't agree to a divorce, she cheated on me with a friend, because she knew I would give in after that. She is still single today, 20 years later. Sometimes they just don't want it anymore.
My million dollar question is, since your wife has no Christian base to stay married to you and she supposedly despises you so much, then why is she still? That makes no sense to me at all????
I agree with your Christian belief and your reasons because I share the same ones.
I would definitely pursue the possible cheating via a VAR etc. I see no reason why God will allow for someone to be this miserable, just continue to pray about it


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

180 is the worst advice you can give him.

That is if he wants to become emotionally detached to leave her.

Not a good tactic to resolve his marriage.

Also people become mean for a reason just like dogs do.

I can guarantee if both spouses from day one meet each others needs then then would be virtually no divorce or need for this forum.

Sadly life happens and you both got into this mess together.

So fix it or end it. Those are the choices.. wallowing in it just delays the inevitable and wastes time.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> divorce is only an option when the spouse is unfaithful


She is being unfaithful to her vows. She may not be having sex with another man, but she does not seem to believe what you believe, and she has certainly not given herself to you. To me, it seems she is taking advantage of your beliefs. If you are not willing to divorce, then all you can do is try to live your life by your beliefs as happily as you can. Get involved in your church, make some close friends that believe as you do, build yourself a circle of love and support. 

A coworker of mine who has similar beliefs as you is part of a religious men's group. They do all kinds of activities together but also meet regularly to discuss biblical topics. Perhaps something like this would be helpful to you to build a life for yourself that makes you happy, despite your indifferent wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> 180 is the worst advice you can give him.
> 
> That is if he wants to become emotionally detached to leave her.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

Some people think that the 180 means to no contact and to be cold, mean to their spouse. That's not what it is at all. The purpose of the 180 is to help the person become stronger emotionally.

What about the 180 is bad advice? That he stop begging and pour out emotional rants to her? 

There is no 180... it's a concept that a person customizes for their own situation. Read the book "Divorce Busting" to see what the 180 reall is. It's not this one set of rules that people push around here.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Some people think that the 180 means to no contact and to be cold, mean to their spouse. That's not what it is at all. The purpose of the 180 is to help the person become stronger emotionally.
> 
> ...


READ the 180 in its entirety and then you'll see. She said do a 180. That means the set rules.

I agree the not groveling part is valid and a couple other rules.

I'll call out bad advice at every turn.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark Ford,

I'm a Christian (with views that some would consider fundamentalist), and while I don't agree with your interpretation of the grounds for divorce (too legalistic IMHO), I appreciate that they are your religious beliefs. I'm not going to try and talk you out of them.

Many of the techniques people suggest for people in your situation rely on the threat of divorce (either explicit or implied). I understand you won't ask for a divorce, but that doesn't mean you have to write "I will never ask for a divorce" on your forehead for all to see.

After I started working on my marriage, my wife started to say "I love you, and you know I'll never leave you" (with the implied hint-hint that I was supposed to respond in kind). I replied I loved her too. While I had no intention of leaving her (which to me is a last resort), I wasn't going to show her all my cards.

This may sound cynical, but in many ways the phase of marriage you're entering is like a game of poker. You would never go into a game of poker announcing up front "I never bluff, if I have a bad hand I always fold, and if I have a good hand I always bet big." So don't do that in your marriage. When it comes to the possibility of divorce, just be silent.

I know that view of marriage is not what you want to hear (it's certainly not the vision I had of it), but the fact is people are driven by emotions and not logic. You're not going to logic your way out of your marriage problems. The problems in your marriage are driven by emotions, and it's going to take an emotional solution to solve them.

People only change their situation when the situation becomes unacceptable. That's why being nice to your wife (giving her flowers and gifts and being extra considerate) doesn't work. If your wife was giving your gifts and being extra kind to you, would you feel a need to change? No, you'd probably think "this is pretty good; let's keep doing this."

You have reached out for help, because you have come to the point that you find your current marriage situation unacceptable. For whatever reason, your wife finds the current situation perfectly acceptable. You have to change that. You have to make your marriage circumstances unacceptable to her.

You cannot force someone to change (and you certainly can't beg or cajole them into changing). You can only change the circumstances. They then can make the decision to live with the current circumstances or make a change.

There are a lot of ways to do that, but that should be your goal.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

If my situation was as bad as yours & my wife didn't even want to be my friend, and leaving wasn't an option, then emotional detachment may be what you need. You can still be a good husband, but do more of your own thing & put her in the background, it's working for me. Focus only on what makes you happy & don't dwell or worry about anything else.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford said:


> MarkTwain, it was just all of a sudden around 2010. She was gradually shutting down more and more before this, but around the end of 2010, she just completely shut down and has been this way ever since growing more and more complacent and jaded every day.


It is my belief that unless you are prepared to leave her, you have absolutely no power of your own. You stick doggedly to Christian ideals, and they rule your life. Been there done that.

Al I can say is that, it is our duty as humans to question everything. We are told that the bible was written by God (more or less), but of course it was a man or men that started that rumor. When I was a born again Christian, I did not question any of this. Then one day it all fell away.

It's scary, but I feel free. I have a lot of time for Jesus though


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford,

Actually, I have more to say.
From the way you write, I am guessing that you are one of those over-logical types. Maybe slightly aspergers? A lot of people have a touch of it, including me. If you find peoples emotion a complete mystery, then this could be a sign.

One thing you could try is talking about your situation to trusted friends. Why be embarrassed about discussing sex (or the lack of it) these days?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

What a horrible way to live. I'm sorry you're in this situation.

Your wife doesn't love you. She doesn't care about your feelings. If this was a sudden change, as you describe, I'd say she's cheating, at least emotionally. 

If I were in your situation, I would leave and find someone else who actually wanted to be married to me. But I'm an atheist, which, reading your post, I'm very thankful for.

So all you can do I guess is try to make yourself happy in other ways. Find friends. Be busy. Go out a lot. Give yourself some peace and stop trying for a while. Your wife doesn't sound like she's going anywhere, give it a rest and reassess in a few months.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> My grandmother used to say we all lived in the hell of our own making. Mark, although you have my complete sympathy, if you continue trying to love a woman who clearly doesn't love you, you are living the hell you have created. You have created it because you have done nothing to end it. How dare ANY spouse be so cruel and unfeeling? How dare ANY spouse completely ignore the emotional needs and love of the other? How dare she treat you so coldly and dismissively? How does she dare do it? Because you accept it. Because you feel pain yet put on a brave face. Because you feel unloved and dismissed, yet continue to do your level best as a husband.
> 
> Create your own life by engaging in activities you enjoy. State your expectations for your wife, clearly and without negotiation. Let her know her marriage and financial security and not assured. You two can live apart without getting divorced, she can pay for her own life, while you pay for yours.
> 
> I cannot believe any Christian teaching would encourage you to stay in a relationship as cruel and vacant as this one. I think you are forgetting that God helps those who help themselves. I think you are assuming that God is going to make your marriage better when it's also possible that God really wasn't all that enthused in the first place but decided to let free will have at it. If you want God to help you, give God something to work with here!


The number #1 worst human trait is cruelty


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Mark, I'm a Christian, too. While I don't believe God is a fan of divorce, I also don't believe He created anyone in His own imagine just to see them reduced to matrimonial slavery. All His guidelines concerning marriage require the involvement of two people. For everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven; a time to cling to one's wife and a time to kick one to the curb. If you weren't planning on living a complete life during your lifetime when were you planning to do so? I wouldn't want to see my child languishing in a loveless marriage and I don't think God gets any satisfaction from seeing his children pointlessly dangling from marriage crosses, either.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

She is getting what she wants, maybe it's security and finances, I'm not sure, but she certainly does not love you like you deserve to be loved. 

She is counting on the fact that you are not going anywhere and that you are a doormat. 

You deserve better and if you want to fix your marraige you have to be prepared to lose her.

Don't become a jerk but do, do some of the 180, start not worrying about her, and do things for you. Don't let her manipulate your behaviour. 

Have Counseling for you. Then when you feel strong enough, insist on Counseling and real sustained effort from her, and if she refuses tell her you are leaving and mean it.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

The point of telling you about wild, passionate sex with other men is to belittle you with cruelty. It is probably not true, but doesn't matter because she can simply decide to have the worst sex with her husband. So either way she is purposefully cruel. The point of it is to keep you beaten down. Manipulators want you in a weakened state because you are easier to manipulate. You'll beg and whine about wanting sex the way she gave it to every other man she was with. No dignity.

With giving her the silent treatment in return: you can't out-manipulate a manipulator. You give them choices with enforceable consequences. Which brings us to the point:

It is a sad thing to see someone convince themselves it is their duty to stay in a bad marriage. But that is 100% your decision. There is nobody responsible but you. 

There is no advice to give you because the only advice worth giving is advice you will not accept. So just get used to the rest of your life. Your wife has you by the nuts and she will have her way with you as long as you live.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I got a question..for someone who has read the bible 37 times....why in Gods world would you ever "write your own vows?" I mean do you really think you could have done better?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> "1 Corinthians chapter 7 in that the wife belongs to the husband and the husband belongs to the wife and they don't belong to themselves any longer."
> 
> So when did your wife divorce you?
> 
> ...


Actually, the Bible DOES teach that husbands and wives shouldn't deprive each other sexually...that sex within marriage is incredibly important to fight off the temptation of adultery.

So, as far as the OP's religious views goes, he is perfectly right in his expectation of sex within marriage. 

The Bible also states the husbands and wives should love and respect each other. So he's also right in his expectation that his wife treat him with kindness, affection, respect, etc.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

OP, I admire your desire to stay true to your principles. I, personally, wouldn't find anything wrong with divorcing over a sexual issue like this. And I am a Christian as well. Your wife has broken her vows, plain and simple. Perhaps she hasn't gone so far as to bed another man, but she hasn't kept her vows to you and she isn't willing to fix the issues either. _She_ is the one who has turned her back on the marriage. You haven't broken your vows. Divorcing her would only be finalizing _her_ choice to no longer be your wife. 

That's how I see it, anyway. Barring any medical circumstances, when either spouse withholds sex and refuses to seek help, they have chosen to no longer be a spouse. Period.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> READ the 180 in its entirety and then you'll see. She said do a 180. That means the set rules.
> 
> I agree the not groveling part is valid and a couple other rules.
> 
> I'll call out bad advice at every turn.


When I recomended the 180 I stated that the OP should customize it for his situation. 

There is not a 180 written in stone. Doing the 180 means to do the opposite of what you have been doing so far.. because what you have been doing is not working.

People here often think that the 180 only refers to the one link for a suggested 180 that people do while they are waiting for their spouse to agree to end an affair. Obviously that is not something that the OP needs.

He needs a customized 180


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> I deny myself even to the extent of hating father, mother, sister, brother and even myself in comparison to Him. Luke 14:26.


You left "wife" out of there. But it is in the original. So is hating your life. 

You can't be a disciple without hating your wife, and indeed hating your life. 

So I don't see the problem, if you really are following Luke 14:26. Isn't this a demonstration of your committment to Jesus? The more you hate your wife and loathe your life, the more of a disciple you are?


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> I got a question..for someone who has read the bible 37 times....why in Gods world would you ever "write your own vows?" I mean do you really think you could have done better?


That's a rather mean-spirited and totally off-base "question". The Bible says a lot about marriage, but it doesn't provide a standard text for wedding vows. It doesn't matter how many times you read it, it's not there.

The traditional "Dearly Beloved" speech that many ministers give originally came from the Form of Solemnization of Matrimony found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer (1662).


To Mark Ford, since we are on this subject, OK, you say your beliefs don't allow you to divorce your wife. But she doesn't' have to know that. Telling her you are planning on divorce might be enough spark to jump start the engine and get you both into counseling to start fixing this. Doesn't sound like you have anything to lose by trying.


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## creative (Apr 23, 2013)

I understand where you are coming from as I was in a similar situation with my relationship and at the time, I labeled myself as a Christian but as I grew older, I became more open to possibilities. For many years I played the role of the 'nice guy' as I literally lived what the Bible taught and forgave my partner for her wrong doings as leaving her as the 'wrong' thing to do. Now move forward 15 years and that 20 year old mind was filled with insecurities and lack of confidence. I've realised over those 15 years of transformation that I needed to loose myself to find myself. I needed to reshape the concept of Christianity and find what worked for me as the teachings wasn't congruent with what I felt. I see that religion is a big part of yourself and it seems it underlies your decisions on how you live your life. Its like what Wayne Dyer said "We're not here as humans having a spiritual experience, we are spirit having a human experience". I discovered that there are powerful spiritual teachers outside the mainstream and don't think you are controlled by religion, follow your own journey. Like the posts I read here on this thread offering advice, all I can say is FANTASTIC! 

As I stated before my relationship was similar and I was the person who rescued the relationship and was one-sided. I felt it wasn't right emotionally and I wanted to go to a better place in the relationship, but it was destroying myself. After you lose yourself, you find yourself. I've gone into spiritual ideas enough but don't listen to the ego, that false voice that tells us that we're not good enough, or we're better than others, or your someone that you own expensive this or that...it means nothing to who you TRUELY are. Don't let anyone control you, including your wife.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Elegirl, I have done a LOT for her over the course of our marriage. I do indeed buy her many gifts and we have done more together in our almost 10 years than most couples do in two lifetimes. 

From every covered bridge in our State and adjoining states, waterfalls, State Parks, Zoos, and EVERYTHING in between. We've gone on many many vacations, as well. The sad thing is that the majority of all of our vacations, and day trips, (99%), we never do anything sexually together.

Usually in the Hotel Room, she just makes sure to fall asleep fast. My wife has used me extremely and I was truly a sucker. However, the Bible commanded me to love my wife as myself and therefore, I loved her as much and as deeply as I could trying not to take notice of myself but only of her.

She took advantage of that because I suppose she never really loved me. 

Wounded Warrior, my wife does have a Christian base at least by name. She doesn't live a Christian life but most all of those who know her think that she does and if our friends and family knew how she treated me, this would be very damaging for her since she extremely values who others see her.

Ginger-snap, thanks for the advice and it is actually quite good advice. 

I do know that I have become a doormat and I suppose more than anything, I came here for support since I know deep down my marriage will never change short of her acknowledging her lies, manipulation, withholding and overall cruelty to me which I seriously doubt.

Littledeer, I am seemingly her doormat and I become more and more resentful of that every day. 

Wiseforit, this is the same thing I have thought as in your point of manipulation for some time now and have even told her that is what she has done and is doing with me. I don't really see a way out unless of course I do catch her cheating. Truthfully though, I do believe sooner than later, I will catch her in something.

Mr. Brains... You do realize there isn't really any "set in stone" marriage vows in the Bible right? Furthermore, I just used basic scriptural tenants for my marriage vows taken DIRECTLY out of the Bible as well as feelings of my own for my bride.

With that said, I of course hadn't read the Bible 37 times when I married my wife but more along the lines of 20+.

Created2Write, thanks for your defense. I do believe technically that my wife has emotionally and spiritually divorced me but as it is, Scripture is what Scripture is. It is true though that most in the church don't follow the Bible since the majority of church goes are ironically divorced as well as over half of the pastors and I can assure you that those I know of personally (which is a lot since I've been in church ALL my life) didn't go without sex for 2.5 years.

The fact is however that my wife disregards all Scripture even though all of those around her (family and friends) think she is some good Christian. 

Wiseforit, you are right that I left out wife and also children. It was accidental since I wrote the post quickly. Either way, denying yourself or hating yourself in comparison to Christ is what God desires since it means even in scenarios like mine, I choose God's Way and Word over mine even to my detriment and despair.

It isn't that God hates me but that God wishes for all to choose Him regardless of what is going on. When we do so, we prove to be true disciples of Him and therefore children of God. 

Theusus, I suppose I could use the approach of threatened divorce, but I don't think she would take it seriously since she does know that I don't believe in divorce and secondly, I also don't believe in deception or manipulation either. If I didn't mind a "white lie", this advice would be much more palatable but alas.

Creative, I actually have lost myself to find myself. I studied different religions for years even though I was brought up in church. I have read more books than most people will ever read. In High School for instance, I read a book a day and sometimes two (unless we are talking 500 pages plus).

I have always thirsted for knowledge and came back around to God's Word as the most guiding light of all. However, the fact is that most in the church don't even know the Bible they so proudly and at times arrogantly "preach." Most pastors haven't even read every book in the Bible yet they somehow feel "entitled" or "endowed" to tell everyone else something.

Therefore, truth truly has stumbled in the streets as Isaiah stated and everyone has their "form" of teaching or as Jesus stated a form of godliness. When you have read the Bible a few times seeking only God's truth, you can easily spot a fraud who doesn't know anything desiring to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

They are truly the blind leading the blind that are clouds without rain for whom the black darkness has been reserved. So the truth is maligned and no one understands it because the frightning thing is the majority of pastors across the land are those spoken of in John 10:10 and NOT as they tell us often the devil.

Thanks again to all of you. You have all been very kind in taking the time to write to me and advise me. While I am firm in my beliefs and do know immovable truths according to God's Word, pain is still pain and misery is still misery. Even God Himself couldn't get the nation He redeemed from Egypt to love Him. 

Jeremiah 13:17 states "But if you will not listen to it, (His correction and wooing and desire for her to come back to Him), My soul will sob in secret for such pride; And my eyes will bitterly weep and flow down with tears"

This is of course where I am and where I have been and I have also in some ways become embittered against her despite all of my best attempts and have become as God did when He stated in Jeremiah 12:8 "My inheritance has become to Me like a lion in the forest: She has roared against Me. Therefore, I have come to hate her.

I fear I am encroaching more and more towards Jeremiah 12:8 rather than 13:17.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> Actually, the Bible DOES teach that husbands and wives shouldn't deprive each other sexually...that sex within marriage is incredibly important to fight off the temptation of adultery.
> 
> So, as far as the OP's religious views goes, he is perfectly right in his expectation of sex within marriage.
> 
> The Bible also states the husbands and wives should love and respect each other. So he's also right in his expectation that his wife treat him with kindness, affection, respect, etc.


The bible may say it his vows do not... that is what she signed on to do. Her vow ad she in her mind is fulfilling them. You all only hear half of the story.

I have no pity for the OP he will at this rate remain in a cruel marriage.... he can better his marriage but he refuses to do so and keeps it in the very sad state its in.

The smartest guy I ever saw on TAM was the guy who discussed sex ahead of getting married and got a FIRM commitment neither can say NO unless they are medically not able to do so at the time.

That is the smartest guy here. 

Not any of us who didn't do that.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

The OP has stated his religious beliefs prevent divorce. 

Continuing to state that he should divorce his wife or hinting that he believes in a fairy tale and should abandon his faith are not going the help him.

This may be a case where the TAM people need to think outside the box.


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

Blue Firefly said:


> The OP has stated his religious beliefs prevent divorce.
> 
> Continuing to state that he should divorce his wife or hinting that he believes in a fairy tale and should abandon his faith are not going the help him.
> 
> This may be a case where the TAM people need to think outside the box.


This is why I suggested he start building a life for himself that makes him happy outside of his marriage. He can think of it in similar terms to those that choose to live a celibate, religious life. He can turn his devotion away from his wife and towards his faith and other hobbies that he enjoys. If he is happier in his day-to-day lifestyle, then perhaps he can find peace in his life and be able to continue treating his wife with kindness despite her attitude without falling over himself trying to change her or win her affection. In essence, it would be a divorce in expectation of romance/affection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

> However, the Bible commanded me to love my wife as myself and therefore, I loved her as much and as deeply as I could trying not to take notice of myself but only of her.


The actual instruction from Ephesians 25 is: _Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..._

I think you have fallen into a common error: that sacrificial love means never thinking of your own needs; that the needs of others should always come before your own. Jesus allowed himself to be anointed with expensive oil that could have been sold to help many poor people (John 12). A completely selfish act; in this instance, Jesus put himself and his own needs above the needs of others. Unless you think you are somehow better than Jesus, you need to step away from this "never think of yourself, only others" mindset. That wasn't what Jesus taught, and it certainly wasn't the example he set.

It has become all to common to only focus on the soft side of Jesus. Consider this list from an author entitled “What Would Jesus Do: 10 Answers”: “forgive others instead of condemning them, pray, show empathy for others, be meek, do not get angry, turn the other cheek, show mercy, be kind, be a peacemaker, and endure suffering.” None of these are bad individually, but as a group they show a bias toward a stereotype of Jesus: a soft, forgiving Jesus; a Jesus that is tolerant of anything and who condemns nothing. 

The question WWJD is never answered:

he would call them snakes and tell them they were going to hell unless they changed their ways
he’d get angry, then he’d act out violently all the while yelling condemnations
he would have cursed it and watched it wither away
Yet, Jesus did do *all* those things (Matthew 23:33, John 2:15-16, Matthew 21:18-21).

Jesus was a man. If you'd take the time to really study his life, you'd find he was a *masculine* man. He wasn't some milk-toast wimp. He was both gentle and tough. He showed both love and anger. He was forgiving and demanding. He was a complete person--not the meek, weak, one sided, half a person stereotype pushed by so many today. 

You are not showing the same kind of love for your wife that Jesus showed. Your wife is stuck in a ditch, and your tolerance of her behavior--your refusal to stand up and provide leadership for your family--is keeping her in the ditch. I don't know what you call it, but it's not love.

After Jesus uttered the line "let he who is without sin cast the first stone," he then turned to the woman and said "go and sin no more." He wasn't tolerant of her behavior and he didn't let her off the hook for it either. He set her on a new path--the correct path.

That's the kind of love you should be showing for your wife. It's a kind of tough love, and tough in this instance goes both ways. It's a much tougher job to love your wife like this than what you've been doing. You're going to be an actual leader; you're going to have to take responsibility for your action; you no longer will be able to play the victim. 

Get the book "No More Christian Nice Guy" by Paul Coughlin. He examines the nice guy phenomenon from a Christian perspective.

No More Christian Nice Guy: When Being Nice - Instead of Good - Hurts Men, Women and Children: Paul T. Coughlin, Paul Coughlin: 9780764200922: Amazon.com: Books

You should also look at the Church for Men site https://churchformen.com

I know you've read the Bible 37 times, but reading isn't understanding. Spend more time studying the Bible and less time just reading it.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Not even Jesus tolerated everything. He forgave sins, healed the sick, raised the dead, but he also ran the money changers out of the temple. Mary and Joseph trusted in God but they also got on the donkey at hoofed it to Egypt to get away from King Herod. If you are in a bad situation and have means to escape, why would that not be an acceptable course of action? It is for a fish, a bird, or a squirrel. Which would glorify Him more? You living the full and complete life you were designed for, or you spending 70 years in misery, gazing longingly at the door, praying Death hurries up?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> You are not showing the same kind of love for your wife that Jesus showed. Your wife is stuck in a ditch, and your tolerance of her behavior--your refusal to stand up and provide leadership for your family--is keeping her in the ditch. I don't know what you call it, but it's not love.


Wow. So, Mr. Ford, how are you going to rationalize your behavior now? Are you really that afraid of your wife, that you can't put her back on the path?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

What a wonderful thread to read, thanks to Mr. Firefly's excellent sermon. Even a non-Christian like me could see the truth in his explanation. Thank you Mr. Firefly.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Blue firefly, I know you are trying to be helpful by somehow "teaching" me and while I appreciate the time you took to talk to me, your advice is someone else's who honestly hasn't even read or in your words "studied" the Bible that much.

Reading and studying are somewhat different but I would hope that knowing someone read the Bible 10 or 20 or even 30 times, you'd assume they did more than just read it straight through without any thought or evaluation. Of course the truth is, after you have read it 20 times or more, you are so saturated in the Word that there isn't much need most of the time for cross referencing since your mind and heart goes to countless Scriptures dealing with particular scenarios or at times, you know all of them.

While I did state loving my wife as myself, I was referencing Ephesians 5:28-29, and also parallels with loving your neighbor as yourself. However, I do also know that all husbands were commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

I am surprised however Blue firefly that you would even challenge someone who has read God's Word 37 times, but as it is, arrogance and not knowledge fill the church. You gave me other people's teaching and other people's thoughts and not your own "studies." You will only get my teaching and what I know from the Bible and not another man's words and certainly not someone else's books.

Christian books are a time waster only to get you away from REAL Truth for false truths. Secondly, and most importantly, Jesus wasn't selfish since that would be sin and Jesus was sinless.

Jesus had a mission and did everything according to His Father's Plan of Righteousness and Salvation. It would be interesting to know how many times you've read God's Word but you would state some false argument that studying is better than reading since this is what you've been taught. 

To that, I'd tell you that I've compiled boxes of papers for study, compiled two volumes of references, written countless discourses, plays, skits, etc. Of course, the idea that someone would read their Bible more than a few times without being curious of how it all connected is ludicrous but this is the false argument that pastors and preachers alike give to alleviate themselves of any pressure for not reading the Bible.

The perfect picture for those in the church today can be found in Malachi 3:15 "So now we call the arrogant blessed." I realize you have fallen for untold lies and think somehow that all of the powerful "men of faith" who write books for profit in the Christian circle have the answers, but they DO NOT. Only God's Word has it and if truth were as easy as going to the corner Christian book store and reading the latest book, then everybody would know truth.

I challenge you to actually get in the Bible and leave all other interpretations and things that hinder truth alone and seek ONLY God for your knowledge and wisdom.

The only reason you feel entitled to correct me much less teach me is because you think that you have found "the light" in books of which you believe I haven't read while forgetting that while you've been reading man's thoughts and ways, I've been busy diligently reading the REAL Word many more times than those of whom you paid good money to buy their books of heresy. 

As for being strong towards my wife, this I have done but as I have explained it, you can't make someone do something nor could Jesus or Moses or the Prophets. I have took the lead and been the man but she simply will not follow. She has no respect or honor for me. 

I'm sorry if I came down to hard on you firefly since at least you are taking the time to talk to me but you are it seems doing so so that you can get one up on someone you see as "carnal" while you see yourself as spiritual and therefore have something to "teach" me. 

It is a one upmanship of which you aren't at all capable of participating in since you have NO teaching of your own besides what you've learned by others in books ABOUT the Bible. Go straight to the source instead. I wish the best for you since I know that many millions of people are deluded by the heresies of false prophets and teachers of the church today proclaiming light and freedom when all they have is darkness and bondage.

I did not mean for this thread to become religiously based even though I am fine talking about God and His Word, I know most didn't come here to here someone teaching about God's Word. I hope however that it helped someone since God's Word is light.

I came here however not for help in my walk with Christ since all I need to do is read His Word for that, but for support from my fellow man in regards to my pain and misery that my wife has caused. I cannot talk to those around me since they don't know about the struggles of our marriage and would have varying results if I were to tell them about my marriage.

Some would believe me and others would think I was over exaggerating or being too hard on my wife and therefore it would cause a bad riff in our lives. That may sound shallow and maybe it is, but that is why I have no one that I can truly talk to. For this reason and this reason alone I came to this site.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Ginger-snap, this is what my life has pretty much devolved to unfortunately.

Workingonme, I think you are forgetting free will which is the SAME reason we are all here isn't it. If we could just man up and MAKE our wives listen to us, then we'd have no problem. While we can take the reigns, it doesn't mean our wives HAVE to listen. 

What Firefly has tried to teach is a Gospel of You heresy as I like to call it and it is all about you. Jesus NEVER considered Himself in ANYTHING but only did the things His Father showed Him and taught Him before He came to Earth. He was a servant and lived the life of a servant giving up everything to please His Father.

This is NOT a life of selfishness nor is a life of thinking of one's self. Paul explains that we have no reason to boast in anything of ourselves but our boast should be in God. Any such pridefulness or thinking of ourselves is sin. We are to ALWAYS think of others before ourselves and learn how to stimulate others to righteousness and good deeds. 

This is COMPLETELY opposite of the heresies taught in the church where it is all about what God can do for..... YOU. 

John Lord, please don't be deceived by false teaching. This appears to be good but it is only a teaching of flattery that reaches our most selfish sub-concious appearing that only appears to be good but in the end is corruption. 

Any teaching that does not debase man and exalt Christ is heresy. Any teaching that does not show man's utter sinfulness and total worthlessness and Christ's total perfection is heresy. Any teaching that somehow validates our sin or selfish desires is also heresy. 

Yet this is EXACTLY what Firefly just did in their previous post exalting man to the point of DESERVING better which in this case was me in my marriage, supporting my own need for selfishness or at least to be concerned with my own needs over those of others and even against God's commandment.

He also debased Christ to exalt man teaching that Jesus was selfish so man can be too since it is a right of man to have what they need and desire since.... God loves him. And lastly, Firefly advocated sin by being selfish or self-centered rather than doing what I have been doing which is trying to lead in love, strength and honor loving my wife more than myself.

It is truly selflessness versus selfishness in the church and selfishness has truly won out as is evidenced by over 90 percent being divorced in most churches. We don't want to travel the road least travelled or as Isaiah put it the Highway of Righteousness but we won't others to validate our actions and most importantly our sins.

If you really think about what Firefly is stating, he is challenging me, a man who actually loved God enough to read His Word 37 times of which Firefly can't say, stating that I need to be more self-centered or "selfish" in order to TAKE BACK through leadership my marriage and my wife putting us on the right track.

He is stating that I am weak by showing love, gentleness and kindness to my wife and would rather be wronged than to wrong and have kept giving unending love while she has withheld love. Which one sounds like what God would do and does and which one sounds like what a man would do?


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I would say, practicing the art of acceptance is the way to go now since divorce isn't an option. Accept, its your life and the way its supposed to be, its really all one could do if no one is willing to make a change.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I really believe this problem has nothing to do with religion and can be solved without the inspection and implementation thereof.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

Mark Ford,

Your lack of arrogance and humility is truly beyond measure. Like the tax collector in Luke 18, all I can do at this point is pray for forgiveness.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Callalilly, (hope I spelled your name right), I have tried so hard to just accept what my life is. I realize this is my life however unless I do indeed find that my wife has cheated on me.

It doesn't mean though that I like it, thus my reason for being here.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

MY belief is, I don't feel that God wants people to suffer in a marriage that isn't thriving either. I do not believe divorce is wrong, its no more wrong than staying in one that isn't productive, loving, nuturing, unhappy etc etc.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Callalilly, those are your beliefs and you are certainly entitled to them but it doesn't mean they are right for me or anyone else or in this case right according to God's Word. 

I must hold to what is true for me or I am nothing as a person or as a man. My principals, my integrity, my honesty and my honor are what make me a man and without them, I like anyother man am NOTHING.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Not to sound negative, but I don't see any solution. She's not willing to do anything & you are unable to leave. Accepting this as your new way of life is all that is left. I really feel for you & based on all of your posts, her mind is made up in that she is done with your marriage & there's nothing you can do about it. Changing yourself isn't going to matter if she's already "checked out" but to save yourself you have to change your mindset & adapt. If it is truly God's will for you to stay, then He will grant you comfort to co exist with her. I left twice & God brought me back twice & though things have been rough, I'm doing better. If He wants you to stay then there is a reason besides to watch you suffer, I don't believe that for a minute. You need to emotionally "check out" yourself for the time being to survive & continue to pray about it.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Callalilly, those are your beliefs and you are certainly entitled to them but it doesn't mean they are right for me or anyone else or in this case right according to God's Word.
> 
> I must hold to what is true for me or I am nothing as a person or as a man. My principals, my integrity, my honesty and my honor are what make me a man and without them, I like anyother man am NOTHING.


I understand that, and yes they are my beliefs, just as yours are yours. And sometimes our beliefs can either help us to grow, or harm us and keep us where we are.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Blue Firefly, I will also pray for you. It isn't as if I was always free from heresies. I grew up in the MIDST of heresies. I was "trained" to believe so many things contrary to the Bible. No one EVER challenged the "man of God" or the "man of the Hour" when they stood at the pulpit like God's mouthpiece and spouted off all kinds of CRAZY stuff.

We were to just accept it as TRUTH as ordained through the annointing of the Holy Spirit. We weren't to question because that was a lack of faith. Of course all of this just amounted to control since this was NEVER how Jesus taught those who believed but was an open forum for all to learn and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The reason it isn't an open forum in church is because the pastor can't answer a quarter of the questions his sermons bring up. When I finally decided to choose God above all others and decided that I was going to find His Truth, it was a hard road I started to travel.

Most all of the things I learned in church were completely opposite most of the time but those in church had no idea since like the pastor, they never read their Bible either, or if they did find an inaccuracy within the pastor's teaching, they were just told that they lacked faith and insight into the pastor's teaching and God would eventually reveal it to them in time.

This was of course nothing more than a cult as well as control as is so many churches across the land. Real Truth is NOT welcome in the majority of churches. Like Hosea 8:12 states, true Word of God is a strange thing to those in the church.

I hope the best for you and know that with or without me or anyone else, you will find only true words of light seeing that you or I mean nothing but He means everything. May God bless you and keep you.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> Blue firefly, I know you are trying to be helpful by somehow "teaching" me and while I appreciate the time you took to talk to me, your advice is someone else's who honestly hasn't even read or in your words "studied" the Bible that much.
> 
> Reading and studying are somewhat different but I would hope that knowing someone read the Bible 10 or 20 or even 30 times, you'd assume they did more than just read it straight through without any thought or evaluation. Of course the truth is, after you have read it 20 times or more, you are so saturated in the Word that there isn't much need most of the time for cross referencing since your mind and heart goes to countless Scriptures dealing with particular scenarios or at times, you know all of them.
> 
> ...


I didn't read the bible 37 times. I did recall a verse where it's pointed out that god did not intend for marriage to be torture, and that in some cases you have to divorce. God don't want you to be a fool for no one, you don't have to die for someone elses sins, Jesus already did that.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Wounded Warrior, I believe what you stated as well, but it doesn't mean it is easy. I appreciate your kind comments and you of all the posters seem to understand my pain more than anyother.

The reason I came here was to be among like-minded "sufferers" and maybe somehow ease my pain. Kind and insightful comments such as yours have helped but as you know, nothing takes away the pain of betrayal for good.

Thanks again to you and to all who have taken the time out of their very busy lives to talk to me and advise me the best they know how. May God truly bless you all.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford-

Wittingly or unwittingly, your wife is using your Christian values to trap you. As long as she knows, you will not leave her, she will do as she pleases. She obviously resents something about you, or something you did. Either that, or she is having an affair and does not want to be unfaithful to her new lover.

You appear to be following the Bible legalistically, bordering on the point of OCD. Do you really think you are loving either yourself or your wife by giving her everything she wants, no matter what the cost?

As I said at the top, you may have done one specific thing that really made her see red, or your doormat personality turns her off - big time. If that is not the case, then I would say she is sleeping with someone else, and letting you finance her life while she does so. Even in your Book, that is grounds for divorce.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Treyvion, marriage according to 1 Corinthians is supposed to be a complete giving of yourself to the other in all love and sincerity. The fact is that the two are expected as Christians to first of all love each other if they are committing their entire lives to each other as well as not be a liar which is also sin.

When one spous or both don't honor God to whom the contract was made, and/or are liars, 1 Corinthians falls apart since it was spoken to those who believe and NOT to those who don't.

Not that Scripture falls apart, but the tenants that are easily performed and worked out in the chapter do fall apart in marriage since there is no true love and giving of one's self entirely for the other and there is no honesty or faithfulness.

However, there is no reason allowed for Divroce in the Bible except for death, unchastity and if one of the spouse's are an unbeliever who REFUSES to live with the other. There is no verses about being given an out to divorce when the wife or husband refuses to love or give love, sex and all of themselves to their spouse.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

MarkTwain, I believe she truly is sleeping with someone else but I don't have proof yet. However, to label me OCD because I want to follow God's Word exactly is quite insulting. It is like stating a coach who wants to follow the rules of the game exactly and makes sure he keeps up to date on all the plays, new rules and regulations to ensure victory is OCD....

I think in saying this, you are using this "diagnosis" to in a way insult me since you don't believe in and somewhat resent those who do believe in God's Word.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford said:


> I think in saying this, you are using this "diagnosis" to in a way insult me since you don't believe in and somewhat resent those who do believe in God's Word.


First of all, I am not insulting you. I am a bit OCD, (and so are many others on this forum), so you are amongst friends  I feel very strongly for your situation. Forgive me if I don't molly-coddle you. You are in a terrible situation and you need alternatives, not sympathy. When you have gathered all the alternatives and sifted through them, you have to make up your own mind.

Going back to your wife, if she IS having an affair, she will be making a HUGE effort not to be found out as she knows this is the one thing that will let you of the hook and divorce her. Therefore, I suggest you become a super-sleuth investigator - or hire one. Do not let her even catch a whiff of what you are up to. 

As Jesus himself said "Be ye as harmless as doves and as wise as serpents". A lot of people do not understand that scripture. The Bible has to be taken as a whole, or it can cause a lot of pain.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Mark, what makes you think she is sleeping with someone else? I did not notice a list of things in this thread other than the fact that she isnt sleeping with you.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark-

Here is another tack...
A lot of people when they're up to no good, love the darkness because they think it will shield them. What about bringing this situation into the light with those around you instead of going along with her game of pretending you have a good marriage?


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

To Mark, fair point. I am working at catching her. To Tas, (sorry can't remember your whole name), I have looked through her e-mails and found a LOT of dialogue between her and one co-worker about day to day life in extreme detail like a girl would talk to another and as a girl would do to a boyfriend.

The e-mails verged on intimacy but never quite crossed the border so to speak. She has also had e-mails to a former classmate who was in to her. And thirdly, she has came home late very often but not like two or three hours late but usually 30 mintues to an hour with no explanation other than the kids were into the lesson.

She teaches at a University. Twice now on Valentine's Day, she was over an hour late and blamed it on her students for really "being into" the lesson. Needless to say, that is rediculous since we all know what is on 18 to 20 year olds minds on Valentine's Day and it ISN'T staying an hour late to class since you are INTO IT.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> Treyvion, marriage according to 1 Corinthians is supposed to be a complete giving of yourself to the other in all love and sincerity. The fact is that the two are expected as Christians to first of all love each other if they are committing their entire lives to each other as well as not be a liar which is also sin.
> 
> When one spous or both don't honor God to whom the contract was made, and/or are liars, 1 Corinthians falls apart since it was spoken to those who believe and NOT to those who don't.
> 
> ...


I would group "refuses to give love, sex and all of themself" under the "unbeliever" status.

Also about the verses where it says you are not supposed to deny each other, and the husband body belongs to the wife and the wifes body to the husband.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford-

Now that I hope I have put your mind at rest about wanting to help not insult you, I just wanted to mention something more about OCD.

There is a well known syndrome regarding the Bible and OCD. Most people who read the part where it says "there is only one sin that can't be forgiven, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit", have no problem with it.

However something completely different can happen if you have a certain type of OCD. Just reading it can make you think of "bad thoughts" towards the Holy Spirit, simply by "trying not to". In just the same way that you will think of pink elephants, if I tell you: "You are not to think of pink elephants for the next 5 minutes"!

With elephants, there is no problem...


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Mark,

There is a Christian sect in the United States; a product of the 19th century Second Advent movements. This religion takes the second phrase of the Apostolic Decree: "απεχεσθαι...και αιματος" and treats it as if an angel spoke it in an operating room today. Under that rubric, they forbid blood transfusion upon pain of excommunication even if it means the person's death.

Most Christians (At least the ones I know) would respond that you can't take a specific mandate given in regard to a specific problem to a specific culture at a specific time in history and treat it irrespective of its historical, cultural and situational context. Those things matter. 

I'm a Jewish person married to a conservative Christian, so it's certainly not my place to try to instruct you on Christian theology. At the same time though, it's hard to imagine that Jesus of the Bible ever intended the things he said on divorce to one day become _carte blanche_ for one spouse to treat the other cruelly, even indirectly. There was a specific cultural context at work here too inasmuch as Judaism of the 1st century treated women horribly. Women were divorced and cast aside for the thinnest of pretexts, sometimes for no other reason than to trade them in on a younger model.


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## PleasePursue (May 6, 2013)

While the religious discussions are interesting, i really just want to know how things are going with the situation at hand. Did you buy a VAR or install a keylogger. Even if you cant buy the VAR a keylogger is free and easy to install, it just records keystrokes so you know what she is typing to people, if at all. The valentines day things seem extremely fishy to me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jerry123 said:


> If by some strange twist of fate she gets on here she will know its you. And she will see all the advice you are getting. If she is cheating she will know you're onto her.
> 
> 
> Do a search on here for "Red flags"... I bet she matches most of them.
> ...


jerry123,

"Most if not all woman are not attracted to that". 

That's not true. There are many women who prefer a "nice guy", and there are some who will prefer a "nice guy" and treat him horribly, but there are others who want a "nice guy" and will treat him like gold because he is so good to her.

It all depends on the person. Manipulative people and power hungry are usually going to take advantage of a "nice guy" and will have contempt at him.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> To Kingsfan, while I appreciate your advice, I can assure you I actually DO know what the Bible states since I have read it myself 37 times. It is quite clear in regards to grounds for divorce and if you believe in the Scriptures as the monitor of your life and not merely some guidelines you can "choose" to follow or not, then divorce is only an option when the spouse is unfaithful.


I sense hostility towards how I view the bible and its teachings. If that's what you wish, go ahead, but it's unwarranted. We are all playing for the same team, just different strengths and weaknesses.

I look at the Bible more from a philosophical standpoint. Keep in mind that the Bible we read was written millenium ago, and some of it has been altered, largely through inaccurate translations. The changing of one word in some cases could have drastic effects on what we are reading and how we interpret it.

And that doesn't even cover how men and women are viewed and treated in society now versus then. It's one thing to say that a man and a wife should have maritial relations often in the societal influences that were underway back then. In some cases, wives were akin to property. Now, women have as much freedom of thought and choice as men (rightfully so).

Look moreso at the overall message which is passed on. Think about what God would tell you for your situation. The Bible was written for all mankind essentially, not a book solely for you, so naturally it's advice is broadbased. What would God say to YOU about what YOU are going through in your marriage?


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> Blue firefly, I know you are trying to be helpful by somehow "teaching" me and while I appreciate the time you took to talk to me, your advice is someone else's who honestly hasn't even read or in your words "studied" the Bible that much.
> 
> Reading and studying are somewhat different but I would hope that knowing someone read the Bible 10 or 20 or even 30 times, you'd assume they did more than just read it straight through without any thought or evaluation. Of course the truth is, after you have read it 20 times or more, you are so saturated in the Word that there isn't much need most of the time for cross referencing since your mind and heart goes to countless Scriptures dealing with particular scenarios or at times, you know all of them.
> 
> ...


And with this I am done with this thread. It's ok to defend your belief in God, I do so all the time as well. But I take the time to hear out what others believe and think, whether or not they have read the Bible 37 times (seriously, who counts how often they read anything?) or haven't even spent one day in church. We all have opinions, and those opinions are formed from what we have expereinced, learned, read, been taught, or otherwise gained. Being openminded to others is the greatest way we can grow as a person and as a Christian. 

This post above not only exemplifies your closemindedness to what others are intrepreting, it is also dismissive of what was a very strong and excellent post, simply because you believe all he does is read "heresy".

And for the record, you can never become so "cross referenced" as to not need to hear an outside point of view. Sometimes you can become to absorbed in what you are reading and doing that an outside perspective is vital. That is what these posters are giving you, and several of them doing so wonderfully in a way which does not ask you at all to go against your faith but rather consider an alternative interpretation. But you'd rather reference the number of times you've read it and accept only that fact as why your beliefs trump all religious advice given here in this thread.

And if you can ever see the trees for the forest, you'd realize that the reason people are bringing up your religious issues is because that is what's holding you back in effecting change in your marriage. You want sex, yet have willingly given your wife a 2.5 year clean slate where she doesn't have to uphold many of your own biblical vows one spouse makes to another (Treat your spouse as you'd treat yourself, provide sexually for your spouse, etc.) and refuse to call her on it because you feel it's not what God would want. Not to mention your wife knows you'll never divorce her so she can continue to never provide sex to you again, knowing full well that you'll never leave, even if you stay married for 70 more years.

Do you understand that? SEVENTY YEARS. You have no leverage, no ground to stand on, no means to do anything more than ask "can we have sex, please?" 

And when she says no, which you know she will, you will say what? 

Nothing.

The way you have pigeon-holed yourself in this marriage, you have left yourself to wither away to nothing in a sexless, unhappy marriage, with your only glimmer of hope for freedom being that you catch your wife having an affair.

You're only hope for freedom from your own self-made cell is catch the love of your life having carnal relations with another person.

And you think THAT'S what God wants for you and expects of you? 

Maybe you should read the Bible again, and this time contemplate it from her point of view as well. If you judge her by the standards you judge yourself, she's broken the marriage vows like a thousand times over. The 38th time should do the trick.

Btw, be careful what you label as the REAL word. The Bible we have today has undergone dramatic changes from when it was first written, largely due to lost/removed script and inaccurate translations. And Jesus, Moses and the Prophets "couldn't make someone do something" but they sure made them pay for it, or showed no remorse when it happened. How exactly are you making your wife pay for her failings?

Signed,

A Christian, regardless of what you think of my views.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> And with this I am done with this thread. It's ok to defend your belief in God, I do so all the time as well. But I take the time to hear out what others believe and think, whether or not they have read the Bible 37 times (seriously, who counts how often they read anything?) or haven't even spent one day in church. We all have opinions, and those opinions are formed from what we have expereinced, learned, read, been taught, or otherwise gained. Being openminded to others is the greatest way we can grow as a person and as a Christian.
> 
> This post above not only exemplifies your closemindedness to what others are intrepreting, it is also dismissive of what was a very strong and excellent post, simply because you believe all he does is read "heresy".
> 
> ...


You're getting a glimpse of why his wife acts the way she does. The more he posts the more I feel like I understand her.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mark, perhaps you should spend less time preaching to people about their "faulty" views of the Bible, and spend more time listening to the people who are taking the time to help you? Cause right now it sounds like you're just trying to convince yourself that your beliefs are right, that your choice to let your wife walk all over you is somehow a Biblical principle, when it _isn't_. 

Firefly was totally right, you are meant to lead your family, and you aren't. You can hide behind scripture if you want, but the whole purpose of the Bible is to help us make ourselves better, stronger individuals. You can be selfless _and_ still hold your wife accountable. You can be selfless _and_ still lead your family. And until you're willing to hear what others are saying without offering some mini-sermon about how their beliefs don't align with yours, your marriage will never improve. 

Did you come here to preach to everyone? Or did you come to seek help? Cause you can't get both.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Treyvion, you'd be correct in grouping my wife by her actions as an unbeliever but the Scriptures state that if the unbelieving person refuses to live with the believer it is okay and not the other way around.

Mark Twain, as for the OCD thing, I understand what you are stating but rest assured I don't have compulsive tendencies to "dwell" on CERTAIN aspects of scripture. People who do what you are describing do indeed have some mental disorder.

I just simply take ALL scripture to understand any particular thing in life such as marriage. For instance, in my reading (studies), I read through the entire Bible while writing down EVERY single scripture in context with love and marriage. There are 188 verses detailing such things. 

Furthermore, I have done the same thing in my times of reading doing so with over 70 topics which has amounted to two volumes (25 topics each) and a almost a third as well. If you just take one verse as you stated and "dwell" on just that one, then first of all you aren't a student of Scripture and secondly you are obsessing.

Ocotillo, I understand what you are saying, but Jesus' Words are life and if you understand His Words in that context, age, time, etc. don't change them because He is the same today, yesterday and forever. His Words are powerful from the beginning until the end.

What you are talking about is modifying God's Word to fit the time we live in and in doing so forfeit your principals for fading fads much less growing secular or anti-God beliefs and societal rules. 

While the treatment of women is seen in the Old Testament as horrible, God is still right and moreover, if you will pay attention in the New Testament, women had a very prominent role in society and at times in the church being prophetess's, deaconesses', holding church in their homes, etc. Furthermore, the New Testament states that apart from her husband, there is no Jew or Greek, male or female in the eyes of God. 

Please Pursue, I do have a VAR but it is so noisy when recording that she would know and before you say it, yes it is digital and not a cassette based recorder. As for the keylogger, I don't know how to do that, but I need to look into it. Are there any sites that are best to find information out about Keylogging or better yet a site I can get the Keylogger from? Sorry to be naive about such things.

Kingsfan, no hosility, just wanted to state a mere footprint of who I was since we are of course all anonymous here and no one really knows what we do or don't know about. As I stated to Ocotillo, you can modify Scripture all you want to fit society but that was never what God intended for you to do. If you choose to do this, that is your choice though and as you know, you are free to believe what you will.

As for counting, I have read the Bible I'm sure many more times, but use a conservative estimate. I started counting some time back and you'll find that ANYONE that has read the Bible multiple times almost always starts counting. It isn't something to brag about for sure, even though it does qualify someone such as myself for much more merit than someone who has never even read it.

However, the truth is, in my private life, VERY VERY few people know how many times I've read the Bible since I don't broadcast it and even fewer still have even seen where I keep up with each book I've read in the Bible. 

Today, no one wants to claim any truth so as to not offend anyone. However, none of those in the Bible said, "well I believe it this way, BUT it may not be how God sees it." Can you imagine if Elijah did this or Moses, or Jesus?

Moses "Well guys, God gave me the 10 commandments but if YOU don't think they are from God, then maybe they are or maybe they aren't but I'm going to believe they are for myself but you believe how you want to." Wow!!!!

Then you might say, well you certainly aren't Moses, or Elijah or Jesus and to that I would say you are most definitely right. However, every church elder proclaimed truth without wavering and didn't SPARE anyone's feelings if in fact they believed differently. Elders are to teach what is TRUE and what is NOT. Those in the New Testament church who led the churches (not apostles) didn't debate with their congregation what was true or not but told them since they were indebted to them to obviously know more than the congregation and if they did not, they certainly should not be elders or teachers.

Being a teacher of God's Word means you teach only what is right and don't give ground to false teachings. Please read 1 and 2 Timothy, specifically 1 Timothy and 2 Peter. Do you think Paul and Peter expected their teaching to be interpretted AT WILL by those who heard it?

Do you believe that those who heard their (Paul's and Peter's) message decided to teach it to their congregation according to THEIR (teacher's) interpretation AT WILL to fit each society? This is a watering down of real Truth and ANYONE who stands for one Truth is a target and WILL NOT be endured as you stated as much.

My cross reference statement was meant about reading God's Word, not life. Secondly, some posters were trying to "teach" me about God's Word and see and believe it differently as you are as well telling me to think outside the box so to speak and SEE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES or interpretations of Scripture other than what's written.

As for my marriage, I know that my belief in what the Bible states (and not my own interpretation of it or wish for it) does in fact hold me back as you state from having sex right now with some other woman but I have told my wife straight forward many times what she is doing and have made sure that she knows that I know exactly what she is doing to me.

I have taken the alpha role so to speak and the fact is, she has just completely ignored me. She does not honor or respect me, nor has she probably ever. As for me creating my own "Cell", this is of course not true unless I want to abandon Scriptural tenants.

I know however that for most, the Bible is only a nice guidebook when we WANT to use it, and interpret it to OUR ADVANTAGE and not to God's advantage. That is the main difference between you and me Kingsfan is that you see it about you and I see it about God and that is how the Bible is written. It is all for God and to God and we will be accountable to Him in the end.

It is His way and not ours and we can't modify or change the rules to fit our lives no matter how tempting it is. I knew before I came here what my situation was and I didn't need you to hit me over the head with it to realize it, or as you stated READ THE BIBLE AGAIN to see it in a different light. 

I came here because of my pain and misery from a wife who betrayed me and now treats me cruelly refusing to deal with our marriage at all. The only reason my religion came up was because others questioned me about divorce, etc. As for the translations of Scripture, we do know that there have been additions here and there, but we also know that MOST of them have been caught and are stated as such and are put in brackets, etc.

The translators have complicated the situation even more by putting their ideas of what the text should say replacing many words and putting the literal meaning or word in the cross reference column. That is why I always try to refer to the literal meaning in the cross reference column unless of course I remember what it states from previous readings.

Kingsfan, to state that somehow EVERYONE has a right to interpret the Bible as they see fit and that NO ONE has a true interpretation outside of themselves is to state that THERE IS NO TRUTH. While we are all free to choose what we believe or don't believe, elders are in the church for a reason, but those positions have been hijacked by false shepherds and teachers who proclaim grand things and extreme flattery to the masses and their words are easily debunked if one actually knows Scripture.

The problem is, if you are busy reading someone's book, you won't be reading the Bible and this just becomes the trend and therefore their books and not the Bible become your Word of Life. The reality is Kingsfan, Truth will always be free but will never be easy to find or understand.

Just like the words I've spoken are heresy and madness to you, since you see me as some close-minded arrogant bigot since I do know what the Bible states and won't back down for EVERYONE else's "perspective." You don't understand that there is one interpretation and it is up to those called by God in the churches to seek out Scripture like silver and gold and deliver it to the churches in the clearest way possible.

There is One Way, Truth and Life and NOT many and there is one true interpretation to Scripture and not many and if we all have a say in how Scripture is interpreted, then we are all lost. It is as simple as that. To say that I do not know God's Word to make allowance for others who really don't know God's Word, I become a liar but the fact is, I have devoted much of my life to knowing God's Word.

I'm sure you have no problem with your pastor telling his congregation something while not saying "well this is how I see it but MAYBE it is right and maybe it isn't", but proclaiming that what he states IS THE TRUTH. However, more than likely your pastor is a charlatan if in fact you have a pastor who makes grotesque amounts of money on the backs of those who work teaching them heresies and lies and never actually reading his Bible much more than to prepare sermons but you of course probably have no problem with him.

He however doesn't pose any problem for you since you placates you in your life more than likely and flatters you. I come to you with raw truth that doesn't flatter but demands change. Real truth will make you uncomfortable so as that you will either hate it, or repent. You have chosen to hate the message I gave and in some ways maybe hate or at least despise me since I am a man who has told you the truth.

This is however intolerable for you and you will not endure it. I hope however Kingsfan that you do embrace it whether by my words or even better by reading God's Word for yourself and seeing that there is one Truth and we can't pick and choose what we will or won't believe if we are truly God's children.

Working on Me, my wife believes at least through words THE EXACT SAME as I do and in fact gets more "involved" in church services than even I do. So your point is in
valid. It is also insulting since this is my hell I am having to live.

Created2Write, I would like to get back to the reason I came here, but people such as yourself keep challenging my beliefs since they aren't palatable to your more secularized lifestyle of picking and choosing what you believe and how you believe based on selfish desires.

I'm not trying to justify my marriage to myself. I didn't even bring up religion. I came here for support for my pain and misery. My wife has made her own choices and chooses to continue to stick by them today. If you were to go to our church, you would think she is some big Christian since she loves to be seen and you would not be saying the things you state about me and the Bible.

As for leading my family, I have tried to do so. I've already stated that. Scripture is not merely to BETTER OURSELVES but to be acceptable and pleasing to God. In the process, we do "better" ourselves but it isn't for us, but for Him. 

As for the reason I came here, I've already stated that more than once. As for needing others to "preach" to me, I have no need since it would be like a person with Doctor's Degree needing advice from a 2nd Grader in comparison. All of the viewpoints here base the bible off of world viewpoints and authors they may have read who "talk" about the Bible.

The majority of posters here who have "advised" me of spiritual things haven't even read their Bibles once. So forgive me if I just don't throw away all of my learning to listen to someone who hasn't even taken the time to learn the truth according to the Bible themselves.

It is a shame today that we have come so far that people will not endure truth. Psychologists can state things and people believe them WITHOUT questioning as if it is law and gospel, crazy heretics in books can state things in books, but when someone just plainly states what the Bible says without any flattery or justification for those who wish to do as they please, it is seen as intolerance, craziness, and madness. 

I wish you all the best of luck in your marriage and even more importantly with your salvation. There is truth above all others and everyone isn't entitled to their own small piece of the truth as all can't have their own wish to believe in any and all gods/goddesses and it be true.

There is one God and one Truth for all. I will pray for each of you and I hope those who believe will pray for me as well. We are all languishing in our marriages because of selfish and willful spouses who refuse to respond to our acts of love and sincerity and honesty. So with that said, I hope that all religious viewpoints have been resolved and that we can get back to why we came here.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> Kingsfan, to state that somehow EVERYONE has a right to interpret the Bible as they see fit and that NO ONE has a true interpretation outside of themselves is to state that THERE IS NO TRUTH. While we are all free to choose what we believe or don't believe, elders are in the church for a reason, but those positions have been hijacked by false shepherds and teachers who proclaim grand things and extreme flattery to the masses and their words are easily debunked if one actually knows Scripture.


I'll snag this snipit from your LOOONNNGGG post. I think it's not only a right to interpret the bible but is infact an obligation. God gave us intelligence and access to his word. Why woud he want us to not apply ourselves to interpretation?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I'll snag this snipit from your LOOONNNGGG post. I think it's not only a right to interpret the bible but is infact an obligation. God gave us intelligence and access to his word. Why woud he want us to not apply ourselves to interpretation?


Exactly. 

Scripture specifically tells us to "test the Spirits", which means we aren't supposed to just take what any Pastor or church leader says at face value. If what's being said doesn't align with the rest of the Bible, then that pastor/leader is likely misinterpreting things. 

Mark, you pass judgments around like candy. If you knew me at all you'd laugh at what you said about me. And it saddens me that you're more concerned with "correcting" all of us here than actually seeking help. Because, frankly, unless you're willing to hold your wife accountable to her actions, there is no solution for your marriage. Your wife's choices are hers alone, and you've made it clear that you won't actually hold her accountable. You won't make boundaries, because enforcing them requires some kind of consequence, and she's not your child so it's not like you can ground her. 

Your only real option at this point, imo, is to let her be and live a life outside of your marriage. Take up a hobby you can pursue in your free time. Work out. Eat healthy. Get fit. Hang out with your male buddies. Cause, unless you're willing to start holding your wife accountable and following through on enforcing certain boundaries, your marriage isn't likely to improve.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> However, the fact is that most in the church don't even know the Bible they so proudly and at times arrogantly "preach."


You can justify almost any kind of life you want to live by selectively reading and interpreting the Bible. This claim of being the one person who is right about the Bible is the very definition of arrogance. 

The tragedy there is that the history of the Bible's construction is readily available for those who care to pursue it. There was a series of councils held beginning with the Council of Nicea in 325 CE called by Emperor Constantine in order to produce a single state-mandated religion that could be used to control the populace. Everyone was eventually required to register with a parish, which was the means by which census, taxation, criminal investigations, etc. could all be administered.

What came out of that first Council of Nicea was the Nicene Creed - the Trinity. Because there was no agreement about whether Jesus had actually existed as a man, or was a spirit, or was God. The Trinity was a political settlement brokered personally by the Roman Emperor - they made him all three. You can see the two major camps of the time in the Gospels, who were pushing for a historical Jesus vs the Pauline Epistles which favored the concept of Jesus as a spirit. The book of Acts was produced in order to have Paul meet the "historical" disciples, make him subservient to them, and thereby complete the merger of the two major competing branches of early Christianity. 

They managed to destroy, alter, and suppress everything contrary to the Roman Catholic canon for over a thousand years using state terror after that. But through archaeological digs like Nag Hammadi we now have far more early Christian material and via nonsecular sources have plenty of important bona-fide history. Probably the most important of which is the correspondence between Governor Pliny of Bithynia and Emperor Trajan in 112 CE. 

The first Christianity sprang forth in what is now Turkey, centered in Nicea/Nicodemia and the most important progenitor was Marcion of Sinope, a great shipping magnate of the time. You can tell by the geographic errors in the Gospels that the authors had never set foot in Judea. They were using the Greek Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures and two books written by Josephus Flavius (History of the Jews and Jewish Wars) to research their material and this is clear as day. Written by Greeks, for Greeks, in the Greek language, and not in the language Jesus would have spoken (Aramaic).

Reading the Bible 37 times gives you zero understanding of who actually wrote it, when they wrote it, and why. The first Christians are actually pretty admirable and the way to discover them is through contemporary material like the Pliny-Trajan correspondence instead of the propaganda manufactured hundreds of years later by officials of the Roman State dictatorship. 

I mention this because it sets the stage for the irony of using the propaganda of a brutal police state and selectively choosing what one wants in order to support their own narrow beliefs about marriage. The most important editor you are looking at in this Bible you are reading was named Eusebius, who sat at Emperor Constantine's right side in that first Council of Nicea in the cradle of Christianity in 325 CE. You have never heard of him before, but he is the single most important official involved in producing the Bible you have been reading. He personally forged a number of things at the behest of Emperor Constantine so we really should credit this earthly Roman Emperor for the iron grip over your mind one thousand six hundred eighty-eight years later. 

Should you see your way to breaking free of that grip, and it doesn't mean losing Christianity, at least not as it existed prior to this police state co-option of it, then you would not see the need to suffer as a martyr at the hands of a bad wife.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Mark,

--Hope you don't mind if I respond backwards to forwards



Mark Ford said:


> While the treatment of women is seen in the Old Testament as horrible, God is still right and moreover, if you will pay attention in the New Testament, women had a very prominent role in society and at times in the church being prophetess's, deaconesses', holding church in their homes, etc. Furthermore, the New Testament states that apart from her husband, there is no Jew or Greek, male or female in the eyes of God.


That's not exactly what I was talking about. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the OT leaves off somewhere in the 5th century BC. and the NT picks up roughly 4 1/2 centuries later. There's a big chunk of Jewish history sandwiched in there, including the Maccabean and Hasmonean periods during which the various Jewish factions that were firmly in place at the point where the NT picks up arose. This would include both the Pharisees and Sadducees. 




Mark Ford said:


> What you are talking about is modifying God's Word to fit the time we live in and in doing so forfeit your principals for fading fads much less growing secular or anti-God beliefs and societal rules.


Not at all. I simply expressed incredulity over the idea that Jesus of the Bible would condone unchristian conduct in a marriage even indirectly, or view anything he said as remotely enabling it.

In this I'm referring to a common logical fallacy called _dicto simpliciter._ An extreme example of this fallacy at work occurs in the the story _Les Miserables _where the principal protagonist, Jean Valjean steals a loaf of bread to save the life of a starving, sick child and for this receives a lengthy prison sentence. 

It seems to me as a Jewish person fascinated with the NT (I've been active on b-Greek for nearly 20 years) that Jesus of the Bible went out of his way to avoid that fallacy and defer to the spirit behind the law over a simple, mechanical reading. 

At any rate - καλή τύχη και τις καλύτερες ευχές


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford said:


> Mark Twain, as for the OCD thing, I understand what you are stating but rest assured I don't have compulsive tendencies to "dwell" on CERTAIN aspects of scripture. People who do what you are describing do indeed have some mental disorder.
> 
> I just simply take ALL scripture to understand any particular thing in life such as marriage. For instance, in my reading (studies), I read through the entire Bible while writing down EVERY single scripture in context with love and marriage. There are 188 verses detailing such things.
> 
> Furthermore, I have done the same thing in my times of reading doing so with over 70 topics which has amounted to two volumes (25 topics each) and a almost a third as well. If you just take one verse as you stated and "dwell" on just that one, then first of all you aren't a student of Scripture and secondly you are obsessing.


Hi Mark, thanks for humoring me. Would you mind humoring me a little more? Remember, this is being done to help you not criticize you. If I am talking, rubbish, then fine I accept. But here goes.

When you said, you had read the Bible 37 times... I thought, that's a very exact number! I wondered if you were reading it like a lawyer, very carefully to see if there was a marriage get-out clause. But wait, I have more to say... 

Unless I have miss-read your posts, it sounds as if you don't really have a marriage any more. Your wife checked out long ago. Correct me if I am wrong, but unlike other sexless couples, you do not share any day to day intimacy, any laughter, any friendship or hugs. If this is so, it would appear that she has divorced you in all but name.

As I said, it sounds like a) an affair or b) you really upset her about 2 1/2 - 3 years ago, but you have no idea what you did.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Blue firefly, I know you are trying to be helpful by somehow "teaching" me and while I appreciate the time you took to talk to me, your advice is someone else's who honestly hasn't even read or in your words "studied" the Bible that much.
> 
> Reading and studying are somewhat different but I would hope that knowing someone read the Bible 10 or 20 or even 30 times, you'd assume they did more than just read it straight through without any thought or evaluation.


Not necessarily. People read many different books for many different purposes. More than anything, I would hope that someone who has read the Bible 30+ times would bear more Christ-like fruit. You sound very prideful, which according to the Bible, is a sin. You have judged _many_ of the posters here, including myself, just because we don't buy into some of the specific things you believe about the bible, which you have no right to do. To the point that you've accused some of reading heresy, or supporting it. 

If you don't agree with the advice someone gives you, just say so and end it there. To go on and criticize others for trying to help you, like you asked them to, is beyond self-centered.



> Of course the truth is, after you have read it 20 times or more, you are so saturated in the Word that there isn't much need most of the time for cross referencing since your mind and heart goes to countless Scriptures dealing with particular scenarios or at times, you know all of them.


Actually, many theologians and scholars will 100% disagree with you here. There are _many_ other documents and pieces of literature that were written by historians who lived during the time of Christ, other people who knew Jesus, the testimonies of Mary Magdeline and others that weren't put into the Bible, that _do_ offer incredible insight to the customs and traditions of the time, historical context, etc. Cross referencing _is_ highly essential when it comes to understanding a document that was written thousands of years ago, especially to us in a modern society. It helps us understand why certain things were punishable, and what those punishments were, etc. 

Mark, it's one thing to believe in God and read the Bible and study it. It's another thing entirely to become to enraptured with it that you forgo commonsense. 



> I am surprised however Blue firefly that you would even challenge someone who has read God's Word 37 times, but as it is, arrogance and not knowledge fill the church. You gave me other people's teaching and other people's thoughts and not your own "studies." You will only get my teaching and what I know from the Bible and not another man's words and certainly not someone else's books.


I really hope you don't get offended by this, because I truly don't mean to offend. If you don't listen to anyone else's teachings, and you only live your life by your personal interpretations, you are opening a door for deception. You remove accountability from the equation, and you get the Crusades, for example; entitlement. People believing that they've heard messages from God that entirely contradict the rest of Scripture. 

It sounds to me like you believe that you are the only person on earth who has been gifted with the proper understanding of the Bible, merely for having read it 30+ times. I disagree with that so strongly, I can't even think of a word to describe how strongly. You're not a Pastor, as far as you've said. You've not gone to college and received a degree in Bible theology and history. By your own admission you don't cross reference to other sources of the time. 

I'm worried for you. 



> Christian books are a time waster only to get you away from REAL Truth for false truths.


Really? Are there any particular books you're referring to? Some of them, I grant you, aren't accurate representations of the Bible. But to say that none of them are? Who are you to make such a claim? 



> Secondly, and most importantly, Jesus wasn't selfish since that would be sin and Jesus was sinless.
> 
> Jesus had a mission and did everything according to His Father's Plan of Righteousness and Salvation. It would be interesting to know how many times you've read God's Word but you would state some false argument that studying is better than reading since this is what you've been taught.


I'm going to use an analogy that, I hope, will help you see why studying _is_ better than reading. I'm using a non-Christian example, of when I was in college. 

I took a Writing class in college. Each week we had specific writing assignments that correlated with our reading assignments. This was a Beginners Fiction Writing Class. Now, some would say that the best way to improve your writing skills is merely to write. The more you write, the better you'll get. You'll gain more confidence, more creativity, you'll fashion your style of writing to fit you... _But_, our teacher didn't just have us writing. He had us writing very specific things, and before writing those things, we read a chapter in a book designed to teach people how to write fiction. 

Why study this book? Why not just stick to the writing? Because this book was written by many professional, successful authors. They had already been where I was, in a beginners writing class, and they were able to give insight into what techniques worked when they first were published, and what techniques weren't as successful. So, yes, while actually writing is what helps you to improve your writing abilities, studying helps point you in the right direction. Like a compass, as it were. I now know to watch out for a few major rookie mistakes that will cost me time and set me back, and hopefully, I can avoid making those mistakes altogether. 

Just reading the Bible doesn't change us. _Understanding_ it is what breathes truth and life into us, and we understand the Bible when we study it...cross reference to other sources who lived during that time, other people who knew Jesus, understanding cultural and historical references. All of these things play a very important part in understanding the Bible as a whole. 

And I don't mean that to diminish the Bible's importance. Not at all. I only mean that studying and cross referencing can reveal deeper truths within the Word just by knowing other historical events happening at the time. 



> To that, I'd tell you that I've compiled boxes of papers for study, compiled two volumes of references, written countless discourses, plays, skits, etc. Of course, the idea that someone would read their Bible more than a few times without being curious of how it all connected is ludicrous but this is the false argument that pastors and preachers alike give to alleviate themselves of any pressure for not reading the Bible.


It's not ludicrous, Mark. People who don't even believe The Bible read it. People read books for all kinds of reasons. It's the studying that helps give clues to what may have been going on at the time. Take William Shakespeare. If you look at the dates of when he wrote various numbers of his plays, and you cross reference those dates to other things happening in British and European history, you can often find that he used certain societal events for inspiration in his plays. One of the greatest examples are the powerful women in his plays; he lived during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I...the first _woman_ to rule as Queen without a husband in England(as far as I know). 

Studying gives context.



> The perfect picture for those in the church today can be found in Malachi 3:15 "So now we call the arrogant blessed." I realize you have fallen for untold lies and think somehow that all of the powerful "men of faith" who write books for profit in the Christian circle have the answers, but they DO NOT. Only God's Word has it and if truth were as easy as going to the corner Christian book store and reading the latest book, then everybody would know truth.


So there aren't any other authors out there who actually read the Bible? None at all? Even when they say they do, they're lying? 



> I challenge you to actually get in the Bible and leave all other interpretations and things that hinder truth alone and seek ONLY God for your knowledge and wisdom.


You _can't_ leave interpretations out of it, though. We all read the Bible and get different things from different passages because we all have greatly different experiences in life. 



> The only reason you feel entitled to correct me much less teach me is because you think that you have found "the light" in books of which you believe I haven't read while forgetting that while you've been reading man's thoughts and ways, I've been busy diligently reading the REAL Word many more times than those of whom you paid good money to buy their books of heresy.


More arrogance. More judgment. For someone who has supposedly read the Bible as many times as you have, I would expect more love and patience and kindness. 

Galatians 5:14-23 "*For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.*

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Idolatry, witchcraft, *hatred*, variance, *emulations*, *wrath*, *strife*, seditions, heresies,

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

*But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."




As for being strong towards my wife, this I have done but as I have explained it, you can't make someone do something nor could Jesus or Moses or the Prophets. I have took the lead and been the man but she simply will not follow. She has no respect or honor for me.

Click to expand...

Because you've allowed her to walk all over you. She gets away with what she wants because you won't actually lead. Leading requires that you hold the people around you accountable for their part in whatever your doing. In this case, your family. If you don't enforce boundaries, she will continue to disrespect you.




I'm sorry if I came down to hard on you firefly since at least you are taking the time to talk to me but you are it seems doing so so that you can get one up on someone you see as "carnal" while you see yourself as spiritual and therefore have something to "teach" me.

Click to expand...

Actually, if anyone is doing this it's you, Mark. Over and over again.




It is a one upmanship of which you aren't at all capable of participating in since you have NO teaching of your own besides what you've learned by others in books ABOUT the Bible.

Click to expand...

There are many, many insightful books written about the Bible. I mean, that's why there are so many translations! For some people the Bible is really tough to read. That's why there's a children's Bible, and a teenanger's Bible, and the KJV, NKJV, NIV, NTV, The Message, etc. And there are many books written that tackle specific subjects in the Bible. Many of these books are accurate and based on the Word. I mean, if you're so dead set against anything but the Bible, then you must not listen to Pastor's preach. Which would mean you don't go to church. Which(hello!) is something that Paul emphatically encourages to do! He said not to forsake the gathering of the bretheren. 

This is the issue I have when one person things they are the only one who "has it", the ultimate understanding of the Word of God. Anyone can understand the Word. And just because they enjoy other Christian literature doesn't mean they're deceived. 




Go straight to the source instead. I wish the best for you since I know that many millions of people are deluded by the heresies of false prophets and teachers of the church today proclaiming light and freedom when all they have is darkness and bondage.

I did not mean for this thread to become religiously based even though I am fine talking about God and His Word, I know most didn't come here to here someone teaching about God's Word. I hope however that it helped someone since God's Word is light.

I came here however not for help in my walk with Christ since all I need to do is read His Word for that,

Click to expand...

SO wrong! According to Scripture this is wrong. You need to do more than read the Word to continue to walk in Christ. You have to actually apply what you read and study. Reading alone does nothing. You can read about love all you want. You could have 1 Corinthians 13 memorized, word for word, but if you don't actually apply those verses to your life, all the reading in the World won't mean a thing. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. It also says that if you say you love God but you don't show love to others, you're a liar and the love of God isn't in you. (1 John) 

It takes much more than reading the Bible to have a walk with Christ. 




but for support from my fellow man in regards to my pain and misery that my wife has caused. I cannot talk to those around me since they don't know about the struggles of our marriage and would have varying results if I were to tell them about my marriage.

Some would believe me and others would think I was over exaggerating or being too hard on my wife and therefore it would cause a bad riff in our lives. That may sound shallow and maybe it is, but that is why I have no one that I can truly talk to. For this reason and this reason alone I came to this site.

Click to expand...

But you're unwilling to do anything to change your marriage, because the only thing that will make a difference at this point is off the table for you.*


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> Your only real option at this point, imo, is to let her be and live a life outside of your marriage.


This is what I said pages ago. He is not really seeking a solution. He just wants to come someplace to complain. 

That being said, the point I was originally trying to make was lost. Mark, in order to live in the "Christian" manner of which you speak, you need to let go of your anger and resentment. You need to build a life outside of your marriage that brings you peace so that you look upon your wife with love, despite her flaws and behaviour. As someone who is not afraid to admit that I've never read the Bible cover to cover, I feel confident in saying Jesus looked upon everyone with love. He did not hold onto his anger or have resentment even when those closest to him betrayed him. So, if you're determined to stay in this marriage because it's what God expects you to do, then you have to find a way to come to peace with your life or you will not be living in the manner you describe and you will be miserable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

I have been forever conflicted on faith being an enormous strength or enormous weakness I think I have an answer now


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mark Ford 

How cruel and judgmental have you been to your wife over the years ? all the gifts not withstanding


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Moses says "I really believe this problem has nothing to do with religion and can be solved without the inspection and implementation thereof."


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## jen53 (Apr 26, 2013)

I have to say, I have gone very quiet on my husband, and gone off sex - BUT, this is due to finding out that from the beginning of our marriage he has been contacting and wanting to be with TVs, and is one himself, so from starting off trying to give him everything(including the kinky sex, which I loved) I have found myself going inward, my mind going over evryting I have found out and running through all our marriage - I can't face sex or intimacy, as for years he made me feel I ws th dirty one, and gave me a complex about instigating sex, but frequently rejecting me, and now I realise he couldnt have loved or dsired me, and all our sex was just a release for his needs, while he fantasied, or groomed me to perform things taht he was wishing someone else was doing to him, I feel so completely duped.

therefore I cannot speak to him, or want to get into conversation- 
in my case it is a sign am deeply unhappy, not that he has noticed.
I cannot understand someone who is happy not wanting to chat or be close, we all need that, I ache for it, yet cannot get through this pain, so seem to be disconnecting emotionally from him
Eiterh your wife is getting her need for emotional closeness elsewhere(and women do feel sex is emotional) or she doesnt like you at all.
Sometimes women are drawn to bad boys, the more you fawn over her, the more secure she feels in control, but the more she finds it unappealing - if you were to stop and suddenly do things for yourself, she would probably be wondering what is going on, I found the more I tried to please my husband, the MORE he searched out escorts,TV sites etc. it ended up with him telling me I was smothering him, when I first found out(unbeknown to him) and started dressing sexily to greet him from work, preparing lovely meals and working on all the things I had found out that he was into by using a keylogger, even buying him womens lingerie and playing making him dress!! . so I stopped. I cannot compete with what turns him on, I cannot keep trying, and knowing I am being rejected, or used- hence I am disconnecting emotionally and physically, and it is hard if you still love someone but know it will never workout how you imagined - I cannot imagine your wife is naturally like this for no reason, either she never loved you OR she is finding a connection elsewhere, OR you're just too nice and she is resentful, and has a liking for unattainable, or bad boys?


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford-

Again, in the spirit of helpfulness, not condemnation, I have one question to ask you...

Hypothetically, what would your wife say in her defense, if she were to chime in on this thread?

Would she say that your mechanistic and dogged application of the scriptures had squeezed all spontaneity from your marriage together?

The picture you paint of your marriage seems terrible, but you have made no attempt to represent what might be her side of the story. Without that, it is very hard to tell what is going on. If you yourself have not considered her side of things, you will be at a loss to understand what is going on.

Kudos to you for being brave enough to come on this board and share your pain. But... as many people have discovered, once a thread starts on TAM, it can take on a life of its own. I implore you to continue to be courageous and go with the flow. You don't appear to have that much to lose, and you might just gain the insight you need to save your marriage - if that is what you really really want.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Thundarr and Created2Write, by all means don't just take someone's word for something but DEFINITELY question everything. However, there is one interpretation as stated in 2 Peter 1:20 and is obvious regardless if you've read the Bible since you know that if there were multiple interpretations and everyone had a claim on their version of the truth, then there would be no truth.

All who come to Jesus open and bare will find the same truths but if you have an agenda or something to prove, or to make scriptures justify yourself, then you'll never truly understand the Bible. After reading it multiple times, it is as plain as day. Not that a believer can't dig out DEEPER truths, but that the Scripture's context will remain the same and will not change based on mine or your situations or desires.

I'm not really just concerned with correcting others since I came here for comfort but had to explain and defend my beliefs. I had hoped after my last post to get back to talking strictly about my marriage without explaining my beliefs but alas. For those of you who simply can't see that true elders in the church who are living a righteous life are to lead those in the church, you can't possibly understand that there is one truth and not many.

You want to be able to have an OPEN INTERPRETATION to the Bible. The fact is that truth will be obvious to you or to me when you approach the Bible open and bare and when two believers meet together through any forum to discuss God's Word, there will be obvious agreement if in fact the two don't aren't using the Bible for their own purposes or have some agenda of their own.

Wiseforit, you are exactly correct that we can take verses completely out of context and use them to create all sorts of beliefs and religions as has been done many times before. However, as stated above, if we approach God's Word to only know Him and to deny ourselves truth will be revealed little by little and those truths won't change with the times or with our situations.

Truth is hard for people to find now because SO many claim the truth COMPLETELY without knowing the Bible and therefore MOST are easy to see through and then the Gospel and real Truth is stained even more. So most believe it is better just to interpret truth for themselves since they have been burned so many times by so many NUTS.

While I completely understand this, going off on your own and thinking you know truth for yourself without even putting any time into finding truth is just as dangerous and just as wrong. I did indeed have to discard early on any and all teachings I had learned to find real truth since most teachings actually hamper truth and not further it.

The church has almost always been a blockade to the truth rather than an entrance to it, with some exceptions of course throughout history but not many. This is why so many of you have taken more of a new aged stance of finding yourself and your own truth as it relates to you which IS NOT Biblical and will NEVER lead to real truth in the way you have pursued it.

You acknowledge that you can find truth inside yourselves and apart from others or any other beliefs and never see your desperate wickedness or sinfulness or NEED for a savior who is Jesus. It is quite simple to someone who has renounced themselves but for those who wish to justify and validate themselves and THIER form of godliness, it is just absurd and sheer madness. 

And reading the Bible 37 times does in fact matter and does give me insight into the writers as well as what they wrote. You WILL NOT find anyone who has read the Bible that many times and not find someone who doesn't know EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. Not that I have obviously come to ALL truth, but what I do know, I know to be true.

I know that however the Holy Spirit will lead me eventually to all truth obviously when I die. 

Ocotillo, I understand what you are saying but Scripture is Scripture. However, in regards to the loaf of bread argument, this is something you understand as you get more and more knowledge and wisdom that commandments were made to give life and not to take it away and therefore, you see countless times in the Bible that men of God (David, Samuel, etc.) LIED to those of whom would have killed them to save their lives. Commandments were given therefore to save lives and not to take them away. 

In this case, you have intepretted Scripture correctly. However, there is no death in my life but agony and misery. The Bible gives exact guidelines for marriage and divorce and to go beyond Scripture is to define Scripture MY WAY and not God's Way. 

All of you think that somehow I am defining Scripture my way and see me as intollerant and some crazy person but what NONE of you realize is, I am actually sticking to Scripture while all of you wish to modify it to please your fancy and your situation and therefore pollute truth for your agenda. 

While I am like Jeremiah and wish sometimes NOT to follow the commandment to escape the pain and redicule and in his case imprisonment (even though you could state somewhat the same for me), God's Word inside of me is like fire in my bones that pushes me forward telling each of you the truth against my own betterment, losing reputation and respect on this forum, while also losing my sexuality and joy with my wife.

But I will gladly give up all for Him and THIS is what it is all about. The Bible wasn't just written so that our lives would always be easy following His ways rather than ours. But it doesn't mean that like Jeremiah, or David, or Job, or Paul that I always have to like it, and won't at times be extremely depressed or even rue the day I was born as so many of them did.

Mark Twain, I never read the Bible for my own agenda but only read it to transform my life into more of what Christ would be and NOTHING of who I am. If I am doing it for selfish agendas or to PROVE a point, then I will never find truth.

I do believe my wife is cheating on me and I haven't done anything to make her dislike me or hate me or withdraw from me. I have been good to her as she will gladly tell others if the conversation arises amongst friends as to all the places I've taken her, presents given to her, etc.

Actually Created2Write, you take my deep confidence in only truth for arrogance but I do apologize for it coming across that way. Moreover, I do have the RIGHT to judge others who are in the church but not knowing the Bible, you wouldn't know that either as most Christians don't realize that since I am an elder and a Teacher.

It is my duty and job in the church to correct, rebuke and exhort others keeping them away from heresies and false teachings. The books that were mentioned have authors who have countless misinterpretations of truth and Scripture and anyone who knows the Bible at all can clearly see them. 

It is like saying God is blue when He is red (just a silly example) but you wouldn't know what color God was if you just read other books.

I am far from the only person who understands truth in the Bible, but I am one of them who does and to say otherwise that my truth is only for me is a lie and would make me unfit for teaching others since my truth would then only be for me and NOT for anyone else much less all others.

Remember in regards to BOOKS that Truth will always be free, but never be easy to find or understand. Books have the false notion that they have within them truths that you can't find in the Bible or that somehow these individuals have truths that YOU just can't find by yourself in the Bible.

All are welcome to the truth if they hunger and thirst for it but these charlatans won't you to believe that only by reading THEIR books can you tap into new found knowledge or POWER. This is the common theme of MOST "Christian" books.

I'm sure there are SOME books that are quite helpful in assisting a believer with the Bible but that percentage is quite low and who's to know which one is or isn't of value?

Therefore, I advocate those of whom I teach to go straight to the source. I get what you are stating about understanding the Bible but to somehow believe that someone who has thirsted and hungered for the Bible and read it as many times as I have doesn't understand it is absurd. 

As the Bible states, the hearers of the Law aren't justified but the doers. God's Word transforms us if we listen and obey. Simple as that. But then again, we have to know that what we are being taught is truth and not heresy and therefore we must be vigilant in digging out REAL truth and making sure that ALL scriptures align with what we believe to be truth and if there is a descrpenancy, then we have a problem. So back to the drawing board.

Why is it you assume that I haven't lead in our marriage. Point out anything that others would reccomend outside of manipulation or deception and I can promise you I've done it. But then again, you assume through your knowledge that somehow you can teach me when you are far from my equal in knowledge and wisdom. 

It is arrogance like this that has destroyed the church. While you do give good scriptures some of which are my favorites, you are doing what you accuse me of doing which is seeing that you are right and I am wrong. I stated nothing but what is true in regards to divorce, marriage, church, christian books and false teachers and prophets and for this, I get lambasted.

Ginger-Snap, you are exactly right in regards to why I came here. I did NOT mean for this to turn into a debate on MY religious beliefs but as it is, sound doctrine WILL NOT BE ENDURED. They hated Jesus because of what He spoke since He challenged all and they will hate me.

As for Jesus, if you will read specifically Mark, or even just Psalm 2, you'll find Jesus was quite angry with unbelievers. However, the Bible tells me NOT to be emittered against my wife and I do in fact struggle with this sin. I am at times angry and resentful against my best attempts and I don't want to be, but I am just so hurt.

This is part of the reason for coming here and NOT to debate Christianity or God's Word. 

Just got it, my wife believes at least in word EXACTLY as I do. If truth be known, she has been much more judgmental of me than her. In our first few years of marriage, I could say NOTHING without her getting EXTRMELY emotional. She manipulated me to no end and I never really was able to say much. I have since learned to take the lead more and have done so as has been posted here time and time again but she has no respect or honor for me.

I have in fact however told her what she is doing and how it is wrong even though she knows this and has heard it from our Pastor countless times. 

Mr. Brains, that is what Aaron said basically when he built the Calves, not Moses.

Jen53, thanks for getting back on topic. I truly believe my wife just doesn't like or love me all. 

Mark Twain, I don't think there is any saving my marriage outside of a miracle from God. My wife is DEEPLY set in her paths to COMPLETELY ignore me and NOTHING I do will change that since she has zero respect and honor for me as her husband. I dare you to name something to try albeit it without manipulation and deception that I myself haven't tried. Please name it.... 

I hope that we can get back to topic since that is why I came here, but if you attack Truth I will defend it. Truth isn't pliable and isn't changeable. It is constant as a rock and is discernible for those who REALLY wish to know it. It is ONE truth and not many and isn't a personal truth, it is an evident and worldwide truth obvious to ALL who are saturated in God's Word.

With that being stated, you are ALL free to believe how you wish since God gave you that freedom. So why bash me since you don't believe the same? Because you despise and are secretly horrified by real truth just as the Pharisees were with Jesus and the Apostles, and all of the first century Christians.

But I hope after all that has been stated that we can all agree to disagree and get BACK to why I came here on this forum and it wasn't to get Biblical advice. If I wanted to do that, I would go to those who know the Bible close to or as much I do. I came here to talk to those however how are in the SAME boat as I am in in sexless marriages as we do in fact all have some of the same experience levels in regards to our pain, misery and depression.

So I ask all that you please leave off the attacks against me or the truth and just focus on why we are all here. In the meantime, I encourage ALL to embrace God's Word with or without my teaching and find real truths because it isn't my words or your words that matter in the end but God's and thinking we can find real truth while never actually seeking (reading) for it is only fooling ourselves.

I hope everyone has a wonderful day and that God does turn yours and my marriage around and that He truly blesses each of our unions we took in sincerity and honesty before Him. This is my wish and prayer after all has been said and done for each of us who are suffering.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

"But I hope after all that has been stated that we can all agree to disagree and get BACK to why I came here on this forum and it wasn't to get Biblical advice. If I wanted to do that, I would go to those who know the Bible close to or as much I do. I came here to talk to those however how are in the SAME boat as I am in in sexless marriages as we do in fact all have some of the same experience levels in regards to our pain, misery and depression."

Ok, BACK to why you are here. After aallll is said and done, what it boils down to here, is that you are rewarding your wife for treating you like sh!t. Unless there is a serious potential for a serious consequence, ie, seperation/divorce, she has no motivation to change her actions toward you. So since YOU have decided that you will not divorce without infidelity, unless YOU change YOUR approach to her, this is the life you have sentenced yourself to til death. Unless you STOP your gift giving and coddling, which would be your first step, NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE. IF YOU CHANGE NOTHING, THEN NOTHING CHANGES.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Who wrote the bible?

The God I know would not write a book that would force you to stay and withstand the abuse that your wife is subjecting you to.

I believe the bible allows for divorce when there is abuse. I don't believe that a wife has to stay with a husband who is beating her up daily. Your wife's withholding of sex is abuse. The God I believe in would not require you to stay in this marriage.

I believe man wrote the bible. Based on interpretation. If it is saying what you are interpreting, then whoever wrote the bible interpreted God's word incorrectly.

Again, the God I believe in, would not force you to stay in this marriage.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Who wrote the bible?
> 
> The God I know would not write a book that would force you to stay and withstand the abuse that your wife is subjecting you to.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100% Sam.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Mark, I wish I could offer you more, but sadly I can't? When your spouse has completely written you off, won't talk to you, completely ignores or is hateful toward you, then for the time being, it's over. The only thing you can do is be a friendly room mate, expect nothing, leave the door open, since leaving isn't an option, pull away & see what happens. I would treat her the way you would treat a friend & nothing more. Unless she still gives you gifts, I would just do cards on birthdays & Christmas. You can still acknowledge her without presents. This isn't giving up, it's more like taking an emotional vacation & you need one. Still be friendly, courteous, respectful, but unattached. Try it, friend.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

In general, I believe that the more words one needs to defend themselves, the weaker their argument.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

I think this thread should be moved to the Relationships & Spirituality section....


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mark, put plainly, you're _not_ entitled to judge anyone. The Bible says, "Judge not lest ye be judged". There is no caveat for leaders or teachers. No one here has asked you for help or for your opinion on their view of Scripture, therefore you don't have the right to tell anyone here that they're wrong or right. 

If you're this judgmental and...annoyingly persistent here on this board, among strangers, I can only imagine how you are with your wife. That doesn't justify her potential adultery, but it does shed some light on why she isn't attracted to you and thus, no longer having sex with you. No one likes a know-it-all. 

At this point, if you aren't willing to do some digging to confirm the adultery, your only choice is to step back from your marriage and no longer act like a doting husband. As others have said, no more gifts...no more romance. You don't have to be mean or resentful or hateful. You can still love her, as the Bible says for you to, but you're not going above and beyond. Maybe then she'll realize that she can't have her cake and eat it too. 

I'd also encourage you to really examine yourself. Examine what people are saying to you here and genuinely ask yourself, "Could they be right? Even if a little bit? Do I come across as a judgmental know-it-all? Could I have pushed my wife away?"

Now, please, don't continue to misunderstand me. I'm not saying this as a judgment, or in any way trying to imply that you shouldn't read the Bible. My only intention is to help you try and see what your wife might be feeling/thinking. 

How do you think your wife feels about your reading the Bible 37 times? Firstly, the Bible is a BIG book. Reading it once from cover to cover takes a lot of time, whether you read one chapter at a time, or three or five or ten. That's STILL a lot of time put into reading it. Multiply that by 36 more times? Many people might see that as excessive...maybe even obsessive. 

You say your wife doesn't seem overly interested in the Bible/Christianity. When did this disinterest start? Could it be that she felt/feels neglected? All the gifts and pampering in the world can't make up for time lost with the person we love. Obviously our faith comes first, but there is a definite difference between putting our faith first, and using our faith to such an extent that we neglect our families. Pastors do this often. 

I mean, imagine how inferior your wife must feel? Few people actually read the Bible cover to cover one time, let alone upwards of 30. You and your wife are meant to be _equals_. It's hard to feel equal to someone who is _so_ occupied with the Bible. Not everyone wants to read the Bible so often, nor is it any kind of requirement. I love the Bible. I have my favorite books that I read over and over. I _have_ read the entire NT through twice. I've read the Gospels through four or five. I've read 1 and 2 Corinthians through three times. I've read Revelation 4 times. I memorized 2nd and 2rd John verbatim. In the OT I've read Genesis through twice. Esther 3 times. Ruth 3 times. Psalm 4 times. Proverbs upwards of 30 times. 

I say all of that to say this: reading the Bible cover to comer as many times as you have is NOT a requirement for salvation, nor is it a requirement to know Christ, nor is it a requirement for a healthy relationship with Christ, nor is it a requirement to be a Christian. Your wife, after seeing you read the Bible through the fifth time, might have begun to feel inferior...like there was no way she could compete with your total dedication to The Word. But of course, who is actually going to say, "Could you not read the Bible so much? It makes me feel like a horrible person." 

Reading the Bible _is_ a fantastic thing. Read it cover to cover, also fantastic. Reading it as many times as you have...very ambitious. But it's also important to think about how the people closest to you might feel. 

Just something to think about.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I bet God hates most organized religion. I bet he disagrees with much of how the bible is interpreted.

Some of the worst people I knew growing up were the ones that were always at church and who looked down on those not there. 

I figured the reason they were there was to go to the confessional!


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Mark, I hope I've offered some help to you, but until this quits being a back and forth, attacking & defending religious battle, I'm done here. Posters won't let it die, so it's up to you to quit responding to anything other than your relationship.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford said:


> Mark Twain, I don't think there is any saving my marriage outside of a miracle from God. My wife is DEEPLY set in her paths to COMPLETELY ignore me and NOTHING I do will change that since she has zero respect and honor for me as her husband. I dare you to name something to try albeit it without manipulation and deception that I myself haven't tried. Please name it....


Well, Jesus did say that, "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible". However, there may be a way to help the miracle along, so to speak.

You need to look at what you may have done to displease her. We are hunting for clues. So I'm asking you in all seriousness: How does your very firmly religious approach to life go down with her? Cast your mind back to 3 years ago, 5 years ago even. Did she ever complain? Maybe it has nothing to do with religion. But there will be something.

The secrets are in her complaints. Not her current ones, but her old ones. Especially if she made them repeatedly. I really urge you to think deeply on this. Don't just brush this off, because this is the crucible where the breakthrough might come


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Wounded, it just may be that the way he lives out his Christian values are what caused some of the issues he's currently facing. So, taking that into account, we can't completely separate his relationship from his religion.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Created2Write said:


> Wounded, it just may be that the way he lives out his Christian values are what caused some of the issues he's currently facing. So, taking that into account, we can't completely separate his relationship from his religion.


For an atheist this thread is surreal. MF, be honest now, do you spend too much time thinking about Christ and the scriptures? I suppose that some religious people would say that no thought of religion is a waste all of it benefits a more righteous life. That is a way to escape taking responsibility.

When things aren't going your way you look to the Bible for wisdom and tolerance. But reading the Bible again is not going to open your wife's legs or heart. You cannot preach her into being horny for you.

When women have sex they sometimes call out the name of the Lord as the moment overwhelms them. You need your wife to get that sort of religion.

I don't see that happening for you. Your sexual frustration is just feeding your religious mania. Sorry to be so blunt.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

3X, outside of divorce, there isn't much I can do besides back off from my wife some.

SadSamIam, Workingonme, Created2Write, it is obvious you know little of what the Bible states, or rather you might know somewhat but CHOOSE to believe IN THE GOD of your choosing or more aptly, I suppose the image of the god of your choosing. 

I choose to only believe what is written and abide by it whether it is easy or not. None of you will endure this since you can't tolerate how I believe because it is a spiritual conflict and your spirit won't endure truth. However, I asked that we all get back to why all of us came here but only Wounded Warrior actually respected me enough to do this.

Wounded Warrior, as for your advice of emotional separation, I am and have been trying that in ways for a short while now mostly because I am so hurt and can't bring myself to lavish her with gifts, and extreme kindness and love the way I used to. That is part of my being embittered against her problem.

I don't think it is JUST out of anger, but mostly out of hurt. The fact of her believing the same way is obvious from my previous posts and she has NO problem accepting what is taught at our church about marriage. So I am NOT some overbearing husband pounding my wife with the Bible as most here believe besides you Wounded Warrior. 

In fact, ALL of her friends past and now present WISH that they had a husband like me to treat her the way I have and do treat her. They have said this multiple times in my presence and behind my back as well (according to my wife.)

I've just truly never understood why she valued me so little so as to not even care about how she has and is hurting me when it is obvious to all around her that I am good to her and for her. It is a mystery I have NEVER solved and I have NEVER honestly met a woman as cold and unfeeling towards my pain and how she hurts me as my wife.

I wish we could be evaluated by many couples with an unbiased look into our marriage and most people would be as clueless as me (I believe) and horrified by how she has treated me. I know this sounds crazy but it is almost like someone has paid her to be cruel to me. 

I know of course this isn't so, but it is a perfect picture of someone doing something against all odds however being immovable in their journey without any deviaition. In times past, before I understood that most all "Christian" book authors teach falsehoods, I read EVERY book on marriage and relationships I could get my hands on.

I also read the secular ones too. Joy of Sex, Men are from Mars, and every other book you could probably think of 2006 or 2007 and back. I have always been a big reader as I stated either in this thread or another. (Can't remember). 

I've done things such as check off every tip/advice in 1,001 ways to love your wife by doing each one that I had never done. The fact is, while finding the ones I hadn't done, I discovered that I'd done the majority of them already. This is just an example.

I guess I'll stop rambling. I knew this would probably be a pointless endeavor when I first came on here since most in this world today believe in doing whatever feels good for you and shaping their beliefs around that which is of course a secular society even though most want to justify that with some sort of religious background beliefs.

I knew that the advice would be to divorce her and while I know that is my only recourse in actually resolving this issue of a sexless marriage, I believe in God's Word and divorce isn't allowed just because I don't LIKE my marriage. It has been however an honor to indirectly chat with you Wounded Warrior and a few others as well.

I believe that you are quite insightful, honest and have pure motives. You would be an EXCELLENT friend to have in real life to anyone and I count those blessed who are your friends. Have a great day all and I wish you well and pray that each of you today finds true happiness with your spouse.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mark, did you even read my post? Or did you just see that it was written by me and skip over it? Because I _did_ address your marriage, and the fact that you dodged my point is unnerving for me. Especially since you say that you can't figure out why your wife treats you this way. You've done everything you can, read all the books, marked off the checklist. But see, _none_ of that would make any difference if the issue was in how much time you spent reading the Bible. 

Let me use a different example. I'm sure that I'm wasting my time here, since you likely aren't even reading my posts, but what the heck. I was in a church once where the Senior Pastor moved out of the state, taking a large handful of the church staff with him, to make sister church in Texas. The remaining staff stayed to continue our church with a new Senior Pastor. (We'll call him John) 

John was married and had four kids...four boys and a girl. All in their teens or up. John had been a secondary pastor before, and now had an overwhelming amount of responsibilities as this was a big church; sermons every Sunday and Wednesday; weekend long church retreats every six months; meetings every week to talk with the youth pastor and the children's pastor and the nursery pastor and the worship pastor and the youth worship leader; bible studies at his house every week; not to mention responding to every prayer request sent in by his church members. 

Well, John was _so_ busy being the new Senior pastor of our church, that he didn't even notice that his children were pulling away from him. The two youngest boys got into drugs and alcohol underage. His daughter got pregnant four separate times and had four abortions, and was also into drugs and alcohol. See, God specifically tells us _not_ to become so overwhelmed with our spirituality that our families suffer for it. John's youngest son left the faith because of his father's absence from his life, and the daughter was left to deal with the abortions herself, and a boyfriend who had manipulated her into the abortions when she'd wanted to keep the babies. She's doing better now, but with no thanks to her father. My family and I left that church because we disagreed so heavily with his choice to tend his congregation before his family. 

Mark, I implore you to consider this. What good is reading the Bible all those times if your marriage is damaged by it? You say your wife "pretends" at church and then is just awful at home...did you ever ask her about your reading the Bible? Try and think back if there was ever a time when she came and asked to do something with you, and you said no because you were studying God's Word?

I believe it's in Ecclesiastes, where it says there's a time for everything; a time to live and a time to die; a time to mourn and a time to praise, etc. The same is true in every aspect of our lives. There's a time to read God's Word, and a time to completely focus on our families. Reading your posts more and more, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that your wife has lost all respect for you because you are too spiritually minded to be any earthly good. _Single_ people devote their entire lives to endless studying of the Word and reading it over and over and over again. But you have a wife. And she just might resent you for reading the Bible so many times. 

If you never read the Bible again, you'd _still_ be a Christian, according to Scripture. You'd still be able to lead your family, you'd still be able to grow in Christ, you'd still be able to apply what you've learned to be a better person. Anyone who believes that reading Scripture determines whether you're truly saved or not, must not actually understand the Bible that they read. Reading the Bible determines _nothing_ about our Salvation. As Christians we _should_ read the Bible. It's not very wise to belong to a specific religion and not know what it teaches. But to read it 37 times? I find it hard to believe that your wife never once mentioned it or complained about it, especially if she's not been as "dedicated" as you.

And now I'll sit back and wait to hear about how "lost" I am, and how "deceived" I've been by false truths and blah blah blah, even though I've mentioned more scripture references to support my stance than you have, and I haven't read the Bible cover to cover. Fancy that.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

That verse in Ecclesiastes 3:1 " To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:

2 A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
3 A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
4 A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
7 A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
8 A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace."

For _everything_ there is a season. There is a time to read God's Word, and a time to shut The Book and put it away.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Here's a passage in 1 Timothy 3 that talks about how _families_ should come before service in the church. I mention this verse because you call yourself and elder and teacher:

1 Timothy 3 NET - Qualifications for Overseers and - Bible Gateway

"This saying is trustworthy: “If someone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work.” 2 *The overseer then must be above reproach*, the husband of one wife, *temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher*, 3 not a drunkard, not violent, *but gentle, not contentious*, free from the love of money. 4 *He must manage his own household well and keep his children in control without losing his dignity. 5 But if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for the church of God?* 6 He must not be a recent convert or he may become arrogant and fall into the punishment that the devil will exact. 7 *And he must be well thought of by those outside the faith, so that he may not fall into disgrace and be caught by the devil’s trap.*

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not two-faced, not given to excessive drinking, not greedy for gain, 9 holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And these also must be tested first and then let them serve as deacons if they are found blameless. 11 Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect. 12 Deacons must be husbands of one wife and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford said:


> I guess I'll stop rambling. I knew this would probably be a pointless endeavor when I first came on here since most in this world today believe in doing whatever feels good for you and shaping their beliefs around that which is of course a secular society even though most want to justify that with some sort of religious background beliefs.


No, this has not been pointless. We all need to bend to each other and learn what we can. In your quest to find the truth, you are leaving no stone unturned, and that is a good thing


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> 3X, outside of divorce, there isn't much I can do besides back off from my wife some.


Mark, you need to do more than just "back off some". I think the total 180 is in order here. That, and do the investigating needed to find out if she is indeed being unfaithful. I would be very suprised to learn that she is not.

Here is the list for the 180:


1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him/her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him/her someone he/she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.
23. Do not argue about how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger).
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and possibly walk away.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because they are hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

Dude, Sorry. But, my spidey senses are tingling. Look, I know girls can usually go longer without sex than guys but 2-3 years?!?!

Dude, I have a feeling that she's cheating on you. She seems disconnected from you and always angry and disgusted with you. It could be that she has to demonize you in her eyes to ease her own guilt about what she's doing. You know, "If he wasn't such a jerk, I wouldn't be doing things with this other guy." Of course, you're not a jerk but she has to convince herself of anything to ease her own guilt.

So, if I were you, I would start looking into things.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Ocotillo, I understand what you are saying but Scripture is Scripture. However, in regards to the loaf of bread argument, this is something you understand as you get more and more knowledge and wisdom that commandments were made to give life and not to take it away and therefore, you see countless times in the Bible that men of God (David, Samuel, etc.) LIED to those of whom would have killed them to save their lives. Commandments were given therefore to save lives and not to take them away.
> 
> In this case, you have intepretted Scripture correctly. However, there is no death in my life but agony and misery. The Bible gives exact guidelines for marriage and divorce and to go beyond Scripture is to define Scripture MY WAY and not God's Way.


I understand. 

Just as a point of philosophical discussion, the "loaf of bread" argument in Judaism is called _pikuach nephesh. _ (Uncovering life) It's a direct reference to the conundrum under the Law when an occupied building collapsed on the sabbath. Do you work to clear the rubble and rescue people or not? 

This would have little relevance for Christians except for the fact that _pikuach nephesh_ is pivotal to a few of the perikopes in the synoptics, especially the healing of the man with the withered hand. It's directly alluded to in the Matthean account (12:11)

Jesus made it plain that conservative interpretations of _pikuach nephesh _did not go far enough; that danger to life was not the only thing that abrogated the sabbath. When sabbath restrictions caused agony and misery, they became contrary to the purpose of the sabbath in the first place. At no place is that said more eloquently and succinctly than at Mark 2:27.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I understand.
> 
> Just as a point of philosophical discussion, the "loaf of bread" argument in Judaism is called _pikuach nephesh. _ (Uncovering life) It's a direct reference to the conundrum under the Law when an occupied building collapsed on the sabbath. Do you work to clear the rubble and rescue people or not?
> 
> ...


Fantastic point!


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Created2Write, while I appreciate your posts, you are still trying to teach me about God and the Bible which you aren't fit to do. However, I will address each of your points as best that I can.

In my case, I HAVE NOT ignored my wife for the church such as I've also seen countless times before. I do all of my study the majority of the time when she is doing other things or at work when I am not. My marriage is NOT damaged by reading God's Word which implants love in me for my neighbor and my wife.

There is no SUCH thing as being too spiritually minded being no earthly good. You have obviously been indoctrinated quite well since that is what church is all about is catch phrases which almost always are WRONG. The Bible tells us this in Colossians 3:2 "Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth." 

The fact is, the opposite of that catch phrase is true since the mind set on the flesh Earthly things is sin and not life. A husband's mind set on heavenly things and Biblical tenants is a husband who is consumed with loving his wife as Christ loved the church and giving ALL of himself to please her so as to not only be pleasing to her but also to God.

So STOPPING all of my reading and study now would ensure my salvation and I could in spite of giving up on knowing any more of God's Word could still lead me to be a "better person." Do you REALLY think this is what God thinks? God's Word transforms us daily into His image only if we seek Him and Jesus IS THE WORD. 

The Bible also tells us to keep to that same standard to which you have obtained in all things not lagging behind Philippians 3:16 "however, let us keep living (following in line) by that same standard to which we have attained," Romans 12:11 "not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirt, serving the Lord." 

Reading God's Word DOES NOT make you born again but it will change your life if you let it to first become born again and then continue a walk of transformation. As is written in Timothy, keeping ourselves in the Word especially teachers ensures salvation not only for ourselves but for others that we teach as well. "Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, preserve in these things; for as you do this you will insure (save both yourself and those) salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." 1 Timothy 3:14-16

And another verse "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success." Joshua 1:8

But then again, you are assuming again I know nothing about the Bible even to the point of what Salvation is which is quite insulting. A truly righteous man will saturate himself with God's Word and if you will pay attention to ALL of the truly godly men of the past, they have done just that. All of them too eventually started keeping count of their times of reading God's Word.

I didn't know that until after I had read God's Word 20+ times however since I never took the time to look into these men's Bible reading tendencies before this time. As for my Bible reading, my wife has NEVER complained about it but in fact has made mention of it many times against my will in front of others. 

I don't trumpet my works in front of others of whom I actually know and if you knew me personally on a name to name basis, you'd have to pull teeth to get out of me what I have or haven't read, how many people and houses I have personally visited, how many people I have led to Christ, etc. But here, you don't know me and you CAN'T see my life by example so I thought it important to just state who I was in regards to my works.

I want so if you are born again or not since only God and you know this. But you are lost in regards to real truth since you are trying to "teach" me a different way than is what is right and have obviously learned arrogance and so many catch phrases rather than truth in the churches you have attended.

As for quoting Scripture, good job and I'm glad you used Scripture and I apologize for not using more. And using Scriptures from Ecclesiastes and Timothy again assume I know nothing and that you are therefore fit to teach me. 

There is a place for all people as some people sit in the audience and listen at church and very few others actually should be teaching the people. But in church, EVERYONE thinks they have something to teach others and arrogance rather than humility is exalted. 

3X, thank you SO much for getting back on topic and giving me a WEALTH of information. I think most ALL of what you gave me is good advice. Thank you so much. 

Crossbar, this has been my thoughts almost exactly. It is like she begrudges being my wife and ENDURING my existence. 

Ocotillo, the breaking of the commandment was always to save a life as in a boy from a well or an animal from a ditch that would die, etc., or to rescue a man or woman from death and disease. But you have struck upon a deep understanding of the Scriptures that most pastors couldn't grasp if their lives depended on it so good job.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> Created2Write, while I appreciate your posts, you are still trying to teach me about God and the Bible which you aren't fit to do.


I just don't understand how you can't understand that arrogance is a turn off to women. If you are even half as condescending to your wife as you are here then her reaction is exactly how one would expect it to be.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

I will gladly defend the Gospel against all perversions or distortions of it but the truth is, I came here because of I was downtrodden and depressed because of my situation with my wife. I did not come here to have to defend why I don't believe in divorce or strictly adhere to EXACTLY what the Bible states and am not QUICK to give myself an out when the going gets touch.

This is of course why I am attacked because we live in a very selfish society and those who adhere to a straight and narrow path are the heretics and maniacs (or as I was diagnosed by one as having a mania) of the day. Those today who believe in living according to certain immovable truths about sin and righteousness are seen as bigots, racists, nazi's and intolerant people in general. 

If sin isn't embraced and justified for one's own satisfaction, that is sin rather than sin itself. I realize the problem that others have with me is that I am too serious and sincere in my beliefs to see sin as sin and by not giving myself an out, I instantly become "judgmental" to others sins as well therefore exposing light on the sins of others.

This simply will not be endured since everyone is right and NO ONE is wrong according to most people's gospels except for maybe murders, rapists and CRAZY people like myself. Just as Hosea 4:4 states "Yet let no one find fault, and let none offer reproof; For your people are like those who contend with the priest," and again in Malachi 2:17 "You have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet you say, "How have we wearied Him?", In that you say "Everyone who does evil is good in the sight of the Lord."

And again in Jeremiah 7:9-10 "Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other gods that you have not known, then come, and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name and say, "we are delivered!, that you may do all these abominations?"

And one more "All the utterances of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverted in them. They are all straightforward to him who understands, and right to those who find knowledge." Proverbs 8:8-9

I wish the best for all of you as I've stated many times. But you have to come to God open and bare not thinking that you somehow have arrived at the truth just because of who you are or think that somehow you have good inside of yourself that is of yourself.

I approach God as nothing so that He can teach me everything that He wishes for me to know as I am able to receive it. I have believed only what is written and have tried to daily break up my own foundations to rebuild on a solid rock who is Christ. 

I've wanted nothing of myself and all of Him. So to most of you here, this is madness that I would CHOOSE to follow Christ against the betterment of my life here on Earth with my wife. I fully understand that and it is your complete freedom to believe this, but somehow, you don't want to afford me the same freedom to believe simply what is wrote but would rather argue seeing that your debate with me is the debate of not only my unwillingness to be selfish or sin, but also your freedom to do as you please and be justified in your sin and choices.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Perhaps your wife wishes you would be silent and that your fanatical religious views are cruel to her.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

WOrkingonme, I've seen plenty of arrogant jerks that are treated 1,000 times better than I am by my wife. However, I do apologize if my preciseness comes across as ****y or arrogant. I am just assured of what I believe because I have put all of myself into understanding truth wheras most others here have made it a part time job a few times a year but yet feel ENTITLED to teach me something.

If you were a professor at a college and students from the 4th grade decided to grill you and treat you somehow as inferior to them and their knowledge, and others ACTUALLY listened to them, you would be perplexed and overwhelmed and this is the case at hand.

Even so, if you were a professor at a University and Freshman believed that somehow they were masters of what you taught while you were a simpleton, this would be extremely crazy as well as frustrating to you.

Of course none of those here are at that sort of level in knowledge of God's Word but most all seemingly think they have something to teach all, especially me who actually believes in the Bible.

As for my wife and the way I treat her, I am NOT a liar and have treated my wife with much adoration, patience, and love through much selflessness and sincerity. I have treated her as my equal and not as an inferior but the truth is, she has in fact treated me as an inferior and her as my superior and has made me feel bad about my self, my male ego, my self image, etc.

She has treated me as something despised and worthless and not worth her attention or love. YOu have therefore struck upon my relationship the exact opposite of what it is rather than what you perceive through my posts.

Therefore, after about 10 years of sincere effort, love, honesty and affection giving my all, I am truly downtrodden and depressed and came here for comfort and not judgment or revilement but that is most of what I've received except for a few like Wounded Warrior who accurately saw the purpose for my visiting this site in the first place.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

But if your wife does not share your fanatical religious views as you said earlier then it is a no brainer why she has been driven away from you.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

Plan 9, this is my last response for the day. 

No one knows how old the Earth is. We know according to the Bible that creation started around 4,200 B.C. if in fact you use the Bible's Chronology (which is quite a task). I made my own chronology with A LOT of study required even after reading 20+ times when I made it.

We know that God makes nothing void or empty and formless but beautiful. He even made satan a beautiful thing. However, when we come on the scene of Creation, the Earth is already made but is flooded with water much like God did with Noah except God has flooded the Earth to the atmosphere rather than just above the highest mountain.

I do in fact believe that the Scripture I have today is God's infallible Word albeit some of the historical books relating historical facts and NOT law have at times been altered such as Solomon's Bath holding either 2,000 or 3,000 baths depending on if you read Kings or Chronicles.

Of course you aren't REALLY asking me about correct versions of the Bible but only to label me as CRAZY. However, the fact is that the closest thing we have to God's Word from the Hebrew and Greek and word for word translations and there are only a few of them. The best one according to countless scholars who have translated God's Word is the New American Standard, while the New King James comes next and then the King James version.

People caught up in traditions of their experiences and not real truth will be dogmatic in reading ONLY the King James version but what you'll find overwhelmingly is that those who advocate ONLY the King James haven't even read it entirely themselves.

Paraphrase Bibles while thought to be helpful do in fact do what the Bible commands us not to do which is add or takeaway from Scripture. Of course translators of even word for word versions have done this as well and stuck words, sentences or ideas that they didn't agree with or like in the middle column as what was literally stated and instead give us what they think will better explain the author's text.

This has happened since the King James and thereafter as well. Of course those without the cross reference column would never even know that the text had been altered.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Who wrote the bible?


Men. 

In terms of the New Testament, Greeks who lived nowhere near Judea and wrote in Greek instead of Aramaic - and almost a century after the Biblical era they wrote of. 

The geographic errors are pretty hilarious, actually. But they were writing for other Greeks who knew nothing about Judea. 

There is real history written by bona-fide historians in the period who actually did live in Judea and speak the language. Like Josephus Flavius, the commanding General of the Jewish forces in the wars against the Romans. Not one word of this Biblical Jesus, nor any word of people calling themselves Christians in Judea up through the 90's CE. 

Consequently Eusebius, in the 300's, forged a passage into one of Josephus' books in order to fabricate that history. But it is not in the original texts and what it does is teach us the kinds of ethics the Church Fathers had. Nothing much has changed with the highest levels of the modern Catholic Church protecting pedophiles from justice.

This is not to slam Christianity per se but rather that people ought well think about who it is they are bending their knee to in making a martyr out of themselves in their name.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Ocotillo, the breaking of the commandment was always to save a life as in a boy from a well or an animal from a ditch that would die, etc., or to rescue a man or woman from death and disease. But you have struck upon a deep understanding of the Scriptures that most pastors couldn't grasp if their lives depended on it so good job.


Thank you.

My wife is a conservative Christian and we've had a lot to talk about over the course of 40 years. 

One point of divergence is that in halakha, it's not "breaking" the law. The circumstances of the situation can render the sabbath either _hutra _(abrogated) or _dechuya_ (suspended) A Jewish midwife does not "break" the sabbath in the course of her vocation. The sabbath simply doesn't apply to childbirth at all. 

This is interpreted liberally enough today to include a toothache, a sore throat, or even a pregnant woman's craving for food. But in the 1st century, there was a huge controversy between two competing factions of Phariseeism. 

Atrophy of the extremities is painful in the extreme, but not life threatening. 

None of this is intended to try to tell you what to do or how to think. I'm just an outsider looking in here and I really do feel for you. My wife's father did something (apparently) unforgivable at one point in his life and his wife treated him worse than dirt for the next thirty years, which is sad because everybody who knew him considered him a good and kind man. He believed exactly like you do, right up to the day he died, that this was not grounds for divorce.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford & others.

May I suggest we stop arguing faith and get on with finding solutions to the lack of sex and intimacy originally expressed on this thread?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Okay, can we move the religious debates to another thread please? 

Mark, what is your plan with your wife from here? Are you going to start investigating to find out if she is indeed being unfaithful?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Wiserforit said:


> Men.
> 
> In terms of the New Testament, Greeks who lived nowhere near Judea and wrote in Greek instead of Aramaic - and almost a century after the Biblical era they wrote of.
> 
> ...


This is what I thought. Written by men, not god. Based on their interpretations and including their bias. Translated many times, each time done by 'men', each time including their interpretations and bias.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Dr. George Simon is my favorite author regarding personality and character disorders.

He gives an example of the zealot who conceals all of his selfish arrogance beneath this veneer of "serving the lord". 

It is the manipulative strategy called "playing the servant role". Where you claim everything you are doing (namely putting everyone else beneath you) is selfless devotion and servitude to God.

You ignore the needs of your wife and children, belittle their feelings, who naturally drift ever further from an emotional connection to the husband and father. 

This case seems to be an example of that, and instead of damning the wife for not being a good Christian and wife we probably ought to be looking at the rigid intolerance and contempt for everyone but self. 

Look in the mirror, *Mark Ford*. You will be looking at the problem. Is professing your perfection and the inferiority of everyone else worth an intimacy-free marriage?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to live with Mark Ford unless they share his devotion to the bible and god. Based on what he says (and how he says it), even if if they shared his devotion, they would be often reminded that they aren't as devote or knowledgeable as Mark is.

I would bet that her lack of attraction and her falling out of love can be directly attributed to Marks devotion and attitude.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Mark Ford, I am not going to go into any doctrinal discussion or theological exposition. I admire people who hold on to beliefs as strongly as you do and I admire even more those who respectfully allow others to hold on to theirs - even if contradictory. 

Dude, you have had some very good advice here. My experience is in practice different to yours but my actions were somewhat similar.

To cut things short, I have come to totally believe that the more a person begs another for something the less disempowered the the beggar becomes until s/he develops enough resentment to no longer care anymore. Outright rebellion against or even hatred of the person being begged will likely ensue. You will stop chasing, grovelling and playing small ball.

No human being can be a doormat for life without getting fed up. The history of humanity demonstrates this. You are holding things together now, or at least your faith is helping you do so. You will need to confront your wife with what you are suspecting and why. 

For me and after 18 months of a marriage that was ladened with threats of divorce, emotional eruptions, walkouts in middle of the night and some very scary moments, all of which were followed by me apologising, buying stuff and promising to be a better husband; I HAD to stop all that.It doesn't work. I had to grow a backbone and quit bending over for my wife all the time. 

Now I have switched off and done a 180, she's expressing stuff I haven't heard in a long while. Funny thing is that I don't really care anymore because my life without the emotional dependency is so much more stable and comfortable.

My suggestion to you is this:

GET A LIFE. RESPECT YOURSELF. STOP BEING A DOORMAT - NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE SINS.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

iBolt said:


> Mark Ford, I am not going to go into any doctrinal discussion or theological exposition. I admire people who hold on to beliefs as strongly as you do and I admire even more those who respectfully allow others to hold on to theirs - even if contradictory.
> 
> Dude, you have had some very good advice here. My experience is in practice different to yours but my actions were somewhat similar.
> 
> ...




I second that. 👆
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

MF when did you last make your wife laugh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> Created2Write, while I appreciate your posts, you are still trying to teach me about God and the Bible which you aren't fit to do. However, I will address each of your points as best that I can.
> 
> In my case, I HAVE NOT ignored my wife for the church such as I've also seen countless times before. I do all of my study the majority of the time when she is doing other things or at work when I am not. My marriage is NOT damaged by reading God's Word which implants love in me for my neighbor and my wife.
> 
> ...


I can't take it any more His poor wife !!!
See yah


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> MF when did you last make your wife laugh?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Longwalk, forgive me for misreading/misinterpreting MF in your post. Now I know you meant Mark Ford (I think)


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mark Ford said:


> Created2Write, while I appreciate your posts, you are still trying to teach me about God and the Bible which you aren't fit to do. However, I will address each of your points as best that I can.


Firstly, you didn't actually address each of my points. I asked, specifically, if your wife ever complained about how much time you spend reading the Bible and you never answered. Secondly, who are you to decide who is "fit" to teach and who isn't? Was David "fit" to slay Goliath? Was Mary "fit" to give birth to Christ? Was Esther "fit" to be a Queen, and save the Jews? Was Moses "fit" to lead the Isrealites out of Egypt? Is any one of us "fit" to be used of God? 

1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."

Ezekiel 33:13 "When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die."

Romans 3:10 "As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;"

Proverbs 16:18 "Pride goes before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall. [/quote]

Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate."

Proverbs 11:12 "When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom."

Proverbs 13:10 "By pride comes nothing but strife, But with the well-advised is wisdom."

I could go on. 

God uses _anyone_ he wants. He used a donkey in the OT. 

There is absolutely nothing written in the Bible that says, "You must have read the Bible cover to cover at least once before you're fit to teach on it". 



> In my case, I HAVE NOT ignored my wife for the church such as I've also seen countless times before. I do all of my study the majority of the time when she is doing other things or at work when I am not. My marriage is NOT damaged by reading God's Word which implants love in me for my neighbor and my wife.


Has your wife ever complained about your studying, though? And please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that _The Bible_ has harmed your marriage in any way. I'm saying _you_ may have by spending so much time in it. 



> There is no SUCH thing as being too spiritually minded being no earthly good.


Oh really? Then why did Jesus criticize the Pharisees? They were religious leaders, after all. Or to use more modern examples, what about those families who refuse to take their children to the hospital when they're sick, because they believe God will heal them? Or what about the Pastors who put their ministry above their family? 

There _is_ a such thing as having mixed up priorities. Putting our personal relationship with Christ first is absolutely the right thing to do. But we _can_ take that too far. It's called idolatry, and yes, Christians can and do make idols of things like prayer: praying eight times a day to be seen as "righteous"; reading God's Word: reading the Bible over and over and over and over to be seen as "righteous"; sharing the faith: leading people to Christ to be seen as "righteous", praise and worship: doing things to look and sound more "righteous". And usually with idolatry comes pride and arrogance and a total lack of humility. 



> You have obviously been indoctrinated quite well since that is what church is all about is catch phrases which almost always are WRONG. The Bible tells us this in Colossians 3:2 "Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth."


Of course. But the context of that verse is important. He's talking about loving the things of Christ above the things of the earth. And, as we know from Galatians 5, the things of the Spirit(God) are _good_ things, things we should continuously aspire to. But, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to take things too far, because we see it a lot today with Christians having really messed up priorities...to the extent that they do _stupid_ things, like not taking their children to the hospital when they're sick. 



> The fact is, the opposite of that catch phrase is true since the mind set on the flesh Earthly things is sin and not life. A husband's mind set on heavenly things and Biblical tenants is a husband who is consumed with loving his wife as Christ loved the church and giving ALL of himself to please her so as to not only be pleasing to her but also to God.


I totally agree. 



> So STOPPING all of my reading and study now would ensure my salvation and I could in spite of giving up on knowing any more of God's Word could still lead me to be a "better person." Do you REALLY think this is what God thinks?


I was making a point, Mark. God doesn't require us to read the Bible as many times as we can before we die. Nor does He even ask us to. The two commandments Jesus gave us were to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Reading the Bible can help us with this, but _only_ if we apply those principles to our lives. And yes, I absolutely think that God would _rather_ us just show love to people than read the Bible a million times. Love, as Christ and the Apostles say over and over, is the most important fruit that we should bear as Christians. 



> God's Word transforms us daily into His image only if we seek Him and Jesus IS THE WORD.


Yes He is. 



> The Bible also tells us to keep to that same standard to which you have obtained in all things not lagging behind Philippians 3:16 "however, let us keep living (following in line) by that same standard to which we have attained," Romans 12:11 "not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirt, serving the Lord."


Yeah, but both of those verses are referring to _being_ a Christian, and how we should conduct ourselves with each other and with others. It _doesn't_ mean that if you've read the Bible once all the way through that you now need to read it again, and then again, and then again. 



> Reading God's Word DOES NOT make you born again but it will change your life if you let it to first become born again and then continue a walk of transformation. As is written in Timothy, keeping ourselves in the Word especially teachers ensures salvation not only for ourselves but for others that we teach as well. "Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to all. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching, preserve in these things; for as you do this you will insure (save both yourself and those) salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you." 1 Timothy 3:14-16


Right. We _should_ read the Bible and glean from it everything that we can. But that _does not_ mean we need to read it through cover to cover as much as possible before we die. 



> And another verse "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success." Joshua 1:8


Definitely. "Meditate" can mean more than one thing, though. Jeremiah 29:11 is one my favorite verses. I memorized it, and I speak it over myself when I feel discouraged. I think that counts as meditate as well. So the verse doesn't, literally, mean to read the Bible and do nothing else.



> But then again, you are assuming again I know nothing about the Bible even to the point of what Salvation is which is quite insulting.


I never said you don't know anything about the Bible. 



> A truly righteous man will saturate himself with God's Word and if you will pay attention to ALL of the truly godly men of the past, they have done just that. All of them too eventually started keeping count of their times of reading God's Word.


Which Godly men are you referring to?



> I didn't know that until after I had read God's Word 20+ times however since I never took the time to look into these men's Bible reading tendencies before this time. As for my Bible reading, my wife has NEVER complained about it but in fact has made mention of it many times against my will in front of others.


Made mention of it, how? To her friends? In a mocking way? Or in a, "I'm proud of all the reading he's done"? 



> I don't trumpet my works in front of others of whom I actually know and if you knew me personally on a name to name basis, you'd have to pull teeth to get out of me what I have or haven't read, how many people and houses I have personally visited, how many people I have led to Christ, etc. But here, you don't know me and you CAN'T see my life by example so I thought it important to just state who I was in regards to my works.


I find it hard to believe that you're humble in your day to day life and then arrogant on an anonymous forum, telling other people they aren't "fit" to teach about the Bible even though you, _also_, don't know them personally. 



> I want so if you are born again or not since only God and you know this.


I AM born again, thank you. 



> But you are lost in regards to real truth since you are trying to "teach" me a different way than is what is right and have obviously learned arrogance and so many catch phrases rather than truth in the churches you have attended.


I'm not the one with an arrogance issue here. And I'm not so much trying to teach you as I am trying to help you a different point of view. You can reject what I'm saying. I don't care. My only intention is to help you see what someone else might see you as. And, if you really do apply the Bible to your life, you should care about the impression you make on people. 



> As for quoting Scripture, good job and I'm glad you used Scripture and I apologize for not using more. And using Scriptures from Ecclesiastes and Timothy again assume I know nothing and that you are therefore fit to teach me.


If I quote scripture, it's not so _I_ can teach you anything; scripture teaches enough on its own.



> There is a place for all people as some people sit in the audience and listen at church and very few others actually should be teaching the people. But in church, EVERYONE thinks they have something to teach others and arrogance rather than humility is exalted.


I say again, God can use _anyone_. Who are you to decide who He can and can not use?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Firstly, you didn't actually address each of my points. I asked, specifically, if your wife ever complained about how much time you spend reading the Bible and you never answered. Secondly, who are you to decide who is "fit" to teach and who isn't? Was David "fit" to slay Goliath? Was Mary "fit" to give birth to Christ? Was Esther "fit" to be a Queen, and save the Jews? Was Moses "fit" to lead the Isrealites out of Egypt? Is any one of us "fit" to be used of God?
> 
> 1 Timothy 4:12 "Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity."
> 
> ...


Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate."

Proverbs 11:12 "When pride comes, then comes shame; But with the humble is wisdom."

Proverbs 13:10 "By pride comes nothing but strife, But with the well-advised is wisdom."

I could go on. 

God uses _anyone_ he wants. He used a donkey in the OT. 

There is absolutely nothing written in the Bible that says, "You must have read the Bible cover to cover at least once before you're fit to teach on it". 



Has your wife ever complained about your studying, though? And please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that _The Bible_ has harmed your marriage in any way. I'm saying _you_ may have by spending so much time in it. 



Oh really? Then why did Jesus criticize the Pharisees? They were religious leaders, after all. Or to use more modern examples, what about those families who refuse to take their children to the hospital when they're sick, because they believe God will heal them? Or what about the Pastors who put their ministry above their family? 

There _is_ a such thing as having mixed up priorities. Putting our personal relationship with Christ first is absolutely the right thing to do. But we _can_ take that too far. It's called idolatry, and yes, Christians can and do make idols of things like prayer: praying eight times a day to be seen as "righteous"; reading God's Word: reading the Bible over and over and over and over to be seen as "righteous"; sharing the faith: leading people to Christ to be seen as "righteous", praise and worship: doing things to look and sound more "righteous". And usually with idolatry comes pride and arrogance and a total lack of humility. 



Of course. But the context of that verse is important. He's talking about loving the things of Christ above the things of the earth. And, as we know from Galatians 5, the things of the Spirit(God) are _good_ things, things we should continuously aspire to. But, that doesn't mean that it's impossible to take things too far, because we see it a lot today with Christians having really messed up priorities...to the extent that they do _stupid_ things, like not taking their children to the hospital when they're sick. 



I totally agree. 



I was making a point, Mark. God doesn't require us to read the Bible as many times as we can before we die. Nor does He even ask us to. The two commandments Jesus gave us were to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Reading the Bible can help us with this, but _only_ if we apply those principles to our lives. And yes, I absolutely think that God would _rather_ us just show love to people than read the Bible a million times. Love, as Christ and the Apostles say over and over, is the most important fruit that we should bear as Christians. 



Yes He is. 



Yeah, but both of those verses are referring to _being_ a Christian, and how we should conduct ourselves with each other and with others. It _doesn't_ mean that if you've read the Bible once all the way through that you now need to read it again, and then again, and then again. 



Right. We _should_ read the Bible and glean from it everything that we can. But that _does not_ mean we need to read it through cover to cover as much as possible before we die. 



Definitely. "Meditate" can mean more than one thing, though. Jeremiah 29:11 is one my favorite verses. I memorized it, and I speak it over myself when I feel discouraged. I think that counts as meditate as well. So the verse doesn't, literally, mean to read the Bible and do nothing else.



I never said you don't know anything about the Bible. 



Which Godly men are you referring to?



Made mention of it, how? To her friends? In a mocking way? Or in a, "I'm proud of all the reading he's done"? 



I find it hard to believe that you're humble in your day to day life and then arrogant on an anonymous forum, telling other people they aren't "fit" to teach about the Bible even though you, _also_, don't know them personally. 



I AM born again, thank you. 



I'm not the one with an arrogance issue here. And I'm not so much trying to teach you as I am trying to help you a different point of view. You can reject what I'm saying. I don't care. My only intention is to help you see what someone else might see you as. And, if you really do apply the Bible to your life, you should care about the impression you make on people. 



If I quote scripture, it's not so _I_ can teach you anything; scripture teaches enough on its own.



I say again, God can use _anyone_. Who are you to decide who He can and can not use?[/QUOTE]

Why, oh why?!!:scratchhead:


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

iBolt said:


> Longwalk, forgive me for misreading/misinterpreting MF in your post. Now I know you meant Mark Ford (I think)


I don't know what I meant myself. 

I grew up without much connection to Christianity. However, I did get some early exposure to fanatical nationalism and political extremism. The tone of MF's diatribes is very similar. The way of excluding everyone but a select number of persons in the party, cult, sect or whatever is the same. You find some point of doctrine and argue until there is a schism.

MF's wife is the victim of emotional abuse. No wonder she hardly speaks to him. She is too downtrodden to express herself. TAM is against immoral exit affairs, but without an ally outside of MF's circle how can she engineer a divorce?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

iBolt, we _can't_ separate his faith from his marital issues. His arrogance is, likely, what either caused his marital issues or has magnified them. If he's unwilling to accept what anyone else here says, and ignores people and then justifies it by using The Bible as his excuse, I can only imagine the things he's said to his wife in the name of reading The Word.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

C2W, would an exit affair be justified for MF's wife? How will she ever get free of him?


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Longwalk, when I read your post which asked "MF, when did you last make your wife laugh?" I actually read it in my head as "Mother f$£%, when was the last time you made your wife laugh"

Considering I just don't swear, I chuckled a little at my mental Freudian slip. The context was how frustrated you seemed at MF's (Mark Ford ) apparent religious zeal. Anyways, I get where you and Created2Write are coming from. 

My man Mark you're very INTENSE. My wife is very much the same and eventually I simply concede then go into total shutdown mode. This absolutely drives her nutts but when you get battered emotionally, if you are a survivor, you have to have a cave into which you can retreat so as not to go crazy. She tells me I am stonewalling her, I say I am trying to preserve the little sanity I have left.

Trust me Mark, when one gets into this position, nothing the other party does will get them out that cave just because of fear of being crushed by this emotional juggernaut that is their partner.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

No, affairs are never justified under any circumstances.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

iBolt said:


> Longwalk, when I read your post which asked "MF, when did you last make your wife laugh?" I actually read it in my head as "Mother f$£%, when was the last time you made your wife laugh"
> 
> Either reading works for me
> 
> ...


If Mark is still here, it is because he is learning. At one point I thought I would drop this thread entirely, but let us not admit defeat so easily, for the sake Mark's wife if noneother.

1) Mark I command you in the name of F,S and HG, never to engage your beloved wife in any conversation about religion and spirituality. Let her find her own way to Christ. Let her manage that relationship. Do not even answer any questions about evolution. If she gets the date of Christmas wrong, celebrate it on the wrong day.

Remember healthy normal women do not have sex fantasies about popes, bishops and television evangelists. 

2) Do normal secular things that are fun
Watch Louis CK and Georg Carlin on YouTube when they shı† on religion. Admit that they have some good points. Let your faith allow you the possibility of doubt. If your religion does not allow weakness, what TF good is it?

3) In what respects does your wife lead in your relationship and life. I suspect the answer is that you say you consult her on everything and come to agreement, that yours is a partnership of equality. That my man is a lie. You do not allow her to lead in anything that you consider important.

The problem now is that if you give her a little bit more breathing space, she may run from you. Sorry, you have to take that risk.

4) Your wife's closed legs are a message to you about your whole approach to life. You are not the blameless victim of her frigidity, but the cause of it. Your erudition will not make her moist.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Mark Ford. She is saving her words for her lover.
and it ain't you.
Been there.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

hookares said:


> Mark Ford. She is saving her words for her lover.
> and it ain't you, babe.
> Been there.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> I choose to only believe what is written and abide by it whether it is easy or not.



I think God is wayyyyyyyyyy more concerned about your character than he is about you getting sex. 

You believe what is written? Stop trying to fix your wife and start spending a LOT more time looking in the mirror. The pain your marriage is causing CAN be leverage for your own spiritual growth. BTDT (different situation in my marriage but incredibly painful and unloving, nevertheless).

You admitted to resentment and anger toward your wife. That's gotta go. Here's a place in Scripture to start:

Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.​
Sounds to me like your prayers are hindered and here is the reason:

You husbands in the same way, live with your wives *in an understanding way*, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 1 Pet 3:7​
Attempting to judge and shame her into sex is going to backfire. Your prayers will continue to be hindered for as long as you continue to blame her and stew with resentment and anger.


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## romanseight2005 (Jun 26, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> The actual instruction from Ephesians 25 is: _Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..._
> 
> *Jesus allowed himself to be anointed with expensive oil that could have been sold to help many poor people (John 12). A completely selfish act; in this instance, Jesus put himself and his own needs above the needs of others.
> *


Jesus did NOT do that for completely selfish reasons! First of all, she was preparing Him for burial. This was done for many reasons, but first of all it fulfilled the prophecy. Secondly, if He was doing that for purely selfish reasons, He would not have chosen a woman of ill repute to do it, since He would receive nuch ill will and disdain from those around Him, for accepting it from a woman of such low value. 

He was also teaching us how to be gracious to even the lowly of society.

Philippians 2:3-4
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 
NIV


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## romanseight2005 (Jun 26, 2012)

Oh and by the way, who was it that said the perfume could have been sold and used for the poor? It was Judas. Who was he likely listening to? Could it be satan?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You've read the bible broadly. Time to read deeply. 

James 22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. *Do what it says.* 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—*they will be blessed in what they do.*​
My approach is to take a verse which pinpoints my issues meditate on it daily; look up the Greek words in BLB and spend as many hours as it takes (metaphorically) beating on God's chest in prayer and holding Him to His promises.

eg. I did the above with Matt 11:28-30


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Guys, I seriously think getting preachy with MF will not be productive. He will no doubt have his own biblical verses to back up his position. Do you not know that this type of stuff has been going on for centuries? Why are you going to these lengths?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Mark Ford, why are you on a secular message board? Just get your answers from the bible.

Oh, yeah, that's right, it didn't work. Which is why you are here. 

So just shut up and listen to the good advice given here and stop being demeaning everyone because they believe different from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## romanseight2005 (Jun 26, 2012)

Blue Firefly said:


> The actual instruction from Ephesians 25 is: _Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her..._
> 
> I think you have fallen into a common error: that sacrificial love means never thinking of your own needs; that the needs of others should always come before your own. Jesus allowed himself to be anointed with expensive oil that could have been sold to help many poor people (John 12). A completely selfish act; in this instance, Jesus put himself and his own needs above the needs of others. Unless you think you are somehow better than Jesus, you need to step away from this "never think of yourself, only others" mindset. That wasn't what Jesus taught, and it certainly wasn't the example he set.
> 
> ...



Oh I see, you are buying into the man up doctrines. 

Okay, I always find it bizarre when people take a one time incident that was quite unique, and turn it into a doctrine. In fact, it's dangerous to do that. "He'd get angry and act violently." Was this His daily pattern? He turned the tables in the temple. This had a much bigger purpose. This could only happen in that instance and circumstance, and we are never told that he did it violently. 

and about Him not being meek? Why did He say tat the meek would inherit the earth? He will come back as a lion, but when he was here, born into humanity, He modeled for us how we were to be, and He came as a lamb. 

I also would like to ask you how these manly traits, as you think of them, fit into the description of the fruit of the Spirit?

Galatians 5:19-26
9 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. 
NIV


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

techmom said:


> Mark Ford, why are you on a secular message board? Just get your answers from the bible.
> 
> Oh, yeah, that's right, it didn't work. Which is why you are here.
> 
> ...


Hahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

iBolt said:


> Guys, I seriously think getting preachy with MF will not be productive. He will no doubt have his own biblical verses to back up his position. Do you not know that this type of stuff has been going on for centuries? Why are you going to these lengths?


Back in the days when I was a happy clappy, people used to argue scripture endlessly. It was pointless. Such a relief to be released from all that.

Shame on everybody who has been jousting with scriptures. Many people died on the way to creating the Bible. We should honor it by not using it as an instrument of the ego. The Bible is for meditating and reflecting on _in private_. It is not for bashing other people on the head with - that's the *wrong* type of righteousness.


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

romanseight2005 said:


> Jesus did NOT do that for completely selfish reasons! First of all, she was preparing Him for burial. This was done for many reasons, but first of all it fulfilled the prophecy. Secondly, if He was doing that for purely selfish reasons, He would not have chosen a woman of ill repute to do it, since He would receive nuch ill will and disdain from those around Him, for accepting it from a woman of such low value.
> 
> He was also teaching us how to be gracious to even the lowly of society.
> 
> ...


Selfish is a broad term.

Being selfish means thinking of your own needs before the needs of others. By that definition eating breakfast is a selfish act (you are looking after your own need for food before the needs of others--did your neighbor eat breakfast; did you think of them before you stuffed your face with pancakes?). Buying a soft drink is a selfish act (you could have given the money to the poor and drunk tap-water).

And of course, there's the story of the sisters Mary and Martha from Luke 10. Martha performed her duty as host and cooked and served for the others. Mary forsake her duty to cook and serve for the guests, because she wanted to sit and listen to Jesus speak. Which one was selfless and which one was selfish? Which one did Jesus commend and which one did he rebuke?

Why this focus that it's OK to be selfish; that it's OK to look after your own needs? Because, imho the OP (as do many Christians) take the instructions about being selfless and living for others to such an extreme that they fall into the trap of *Asceticism*. They refuse to address their own needs, and feel that standing up for their needs is somehow selfish. 

Think of the person that can't say no to any request made to them at church; who consequently is overloaded with church related tasks and activities--sometimes to the point that their work, personal life, and family suffer. But, they can't say no to these church tasks, because that would be selfish, and everyone knows a good Christian should be selfless and giving. They go sooooo far out of their way to avoid being "selfish" that they fall into a type of asceticism--they lose the ability to stand up even for their basic needs.

Ironically, everyone would be better off if they did stand up for their needs; if they were a little more selfish. A person overloaded with tasks doesn't do a good job at any of them. A person that has a strong personal, work, and family life is more likely to do a good job at a church related activity than a person that doesn't. A person that takes on a task simply so they won't look selfish hardly falls into the category of "cheerful giver."

Which brings us back to the OP, who has stated he is focused on being a "selfless husband." Every reader on here has noted that his refusal to focus on his own needs in his marriage--his refusal to be even the slightest bit selfish--is actually damaging his marriage. Yet, he can't see it, because he has taken the instructions to be selfless to such a far extreme that he has turned it into a type of asceticism. 

Of course, he may have taken this position because it's easier. He can now play the martyr (I do nothing for myself, and still she doesn't appreciate me). He doesn't have to deal with the issues between them (let's face it, talking open and honestly about what your and your spouses needs is hard--very hard). 

I said I wasn't going to get back on this thread, because the OP was obviously not open to advice form anyone else, but I thought I needed to clarify my statement that being selfish wasn't always a bad thing.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Mark Ford-
Were you sincere when you wrote this?



Mark Ford said:


> Mark Twain, I don't think there is any saving my marriage outside of a miracle from God. My wife is DEEPLY set in her paths to COMPLETELY ignore me and NOTHING I do will change that since she has zero respect and honor for me as her husband. * I dare you to name something to try albeit it without manipulation and deception that I myself haven't tried. Please name it.... *


This is the best I can come up with:

TAM is a mirror. But it's not like a silvered glass mirror like you might find in a bathroom. It reflects things more like a lake or pond. Sometimes the waters are pristine and undisturbed; the reflection is clear and straightforward. Other times, the waters get ruffled and the images are distorted. Nevertheless, the big picture always jumps out.

When the waters are ruffled, it is often because many people are putting in their 2 cents, and all posters are giving and receiving reflections.

If everyone who has posted on this thread looks back at what they have written, they will get a pretty good snapshot of themselves. No exceptions.

Turning back to YOU now, look at what you have chosen to write about. No one made you post and reply in the way you did. You had a free hand. (I'm aware of the debate about freewill, but that's for another day!). Read your posts back. Get a picture of what sort of a person you have become.

Then try to get a picture of what it is like to live with this sort of person. Maybe you feel your personality has reached the highest refinement that it is possible for a human to obtain. Maybe you feel ashamed. It does not matter. The mirror never lies.

But, if you want to open your heart wider than ever before - now is the perfect opportunity.


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## Mark Ford (Apr 7, 2013)

I came to this site and started this particular thread because as I've stated before I was downtrodden and depressed. I know that because of the society we live in, those who choose to adhere to God's Word and leave no "wiggle" room for free interpretation are seen as intolerant as is "preached" constantly on TV, movies, etc.

I understand this and accept it as what people think and believe today. I also realize that outside a VERY few of you, none of you will help me with my pain or misery which is why I came here because you can't see through or tolerate what I believe.

I TRULY wish the best for ALL of you and pray that each and every one of you either continue in your salvation with Christ or become born again especially on this special day for Mother's so that we can all be together in the end.

This will be my last post on this thread. I don't have any ill feelings towards any of you, even though I unfortunately can't say the same for some of you towards me. But that is okay since I forgive each of you and hope that if I have offended any, you also please forgive me.

I pray the Lord bless you and keep you and that the Lord makes His face shine on you being gracious and loving to all of you for the rest of you and your spouses and childrens days. 

Happy Mother's Day to all of the Mother's here on this site and thread and May God richly bless you and the gift(s) God gave to you and to your husband.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Best of luck with your marriage, Mark. Sorry you didn't find what you were seeking here.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Mark Ford said:


> she has zero respect and honor for me as her husband


Because you've lost it by being judgemental and overbearing.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Plenty of people tried to help you. You just didn't like what was said.


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## MeditMike80 (Dec 29, 2012)

You were closed to people who didn't offer advice that wasn't in line with your literal interpretation of the Bible, what did you think would happen? We're not in 1st century Rome, we're in 20th century USA. The Bible is not literal truth, it's spiritual truth. You need to realize and accept the difference or else you'll always have these social difficulties you seem to have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MarkTwain said:


> If everyone who has posted on this thread looks back at what they have written, they will get a pretty good snapshot of themselves. No exceptions.


LOL! That very thought struck me when I read your last post directed to me. Go figure!


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> I came to this site and started this particular thread because as I've stated before I was downtrodden and depressed. I know that because of the society we live in, those who choose to adhere to God's Word and leave no "wiggle" room for free interpretation are seen as intolerant as is "preached" constantly on TV, movies, etc.
> 
> I understand this and accept it as what people think and believe today. I also realize that outside a VERY few of you, none of you will help me with my pain or misery which is why I came here because you can't see through or tolerate what I believe.
> 
> ...


He will be back to preach He can't help himself Darwin never existed


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Blonde said:


> LOL! That very thought struck me when I read your last post directed to me. Go figure!


I'm not aware, I directed a post specifically to you. Which # was it?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MarkTwain said:


> Back in the days when I was a happy clappy, people used to argue scripture endlessly. It was pointless. Such a relief to be released from all that.
> 
> Shame on everybody who has been jousting with scriptures. Many people died on the way to creating the Bible. We should honor it by not using it as an instrument of the ego. The Bible is for meditating and reflecting on _in private_. It is not for bashing other people on the head with - that's the *wrong* type of righteousness.


Apparently directed toward those of us who quoted scripture or attempted to respond within the OP's professed Bible believing framework? I am not ashamed to be in that number. 

Struck me as ironic to be judged with "shame on you" finger wagging and accused of being egotistical. My knee jerk reaction was the same assumption you make about people's posts being more about self reflection than they realize.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Blonde said:


> My knee jerk reaction was the same assumption you make about people's posts being more about self reflection than they realize.


No-one can look into a mirror without creating a reflection. Me included. However, taking things on face value, the fact that scripture was being endlessly argued, was more note-worthy than the individual arguments themselves. The determination on all sides to bat endless Bible quotes around simply revealed underlying anger and frustration.

I think we all need to look within and become clear clear clear. It's an ongoing life's work for me.


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## MarkTwain (Aug 1, 2008)

Blonde said:


> Apparently directed toward those of us who quoted scripture or attempted to respond within the OP's professed Bible believing framework?


You set yourselves an impossible task. The OP knows the Bible far too well. The argument would go an until... Domesday! When people are stuck in a rut, what they need is an infusion of something new that is _outside _of their usual framework.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MarkTwain said:


> You set yourselves an impossible task. The OP knows the Bible far too well. The argument would go an until... Domesday! When people are stuck in a rut, what they need is an infusion of something new that is _outside _of their usual framework.


Come out of the bible realm towards the ways and hows things are done in the world.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

I find it amusing that a man that claims all the answers are in the bible comes to man for answers.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Sbrown said:


> I find it amusing that a man that claims all the answers are in the bible comes to *man* for answers.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You mean comes to TAM for answers. I wonder what Siri says about LD and cheating?


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## Suspecting (Jan 8, 2013)

No offense to the OP but if you talk to your wife like you do in this thread it's no wonder she isn't talking to you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

When people come to TAM with valid sounding threads but then become impossible, I think they're usually trolls.

My guess? Mark came here to ruffle feathers. Probably a single young guy.


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## Penna (Aug 5, 2013)

Mark Ford said:


> Tom, I don't know if I can live like this much longer, thus my depression and also my reason for being on this site. To Plan 9, her past lovers weren't what you'd call bad boys and they certainly weren't "party" animals. I am much more outgoing than they were and are.
> 
> There was no drinking involved in her past relationships and no real party scene either. However, it is true they never treated her as good as I have tried my best to treat her.
> 
> ...


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I had forgotten about this thread and now I remember why. Mark Ford really said very little about his relationship except he had been husband of the year for a decade. On the other hand we did come to understand how ignorant we all our because of our limited knowledge of scripture.

Mark you are truly one of the most arrogant Christians I have ever met. Your lack of humility leaves absolutely no doubt of why you are in the situation you are in.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Seems like most thread go for a while and then die. I looked at my thread subscription list and most threads peter out.


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