# But he treats me SO GOOD....when he is not mad!



## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

He: late 20s. Diagnosed with very low T
Me: early 20s

So am I being a bad wife for not wanting to put up with all the crap anymore? He cries all the time, yells for no reason, threatens to kill himself, is being super emotionaly abusive and phisically abusive at least once a week. How much more can I be there for him and justify his behaviour on the low T? He refuses counceling due to "it's expensive". He denies the phisical abuse saying that if I didn't make him mad he wouldn't do it. I think he is bipolar. He can go from the ideal amazing husband to a complete abusive jerk. He wakes up and everything all of a suden is fine and he loves me and brings me flowers. He said a while back he would get help for his anger towards me and never followed thru with it. I remember the first time he slapped me...I really thought it was my fault and apologized to him for making him mad. I was 19 and stupid. The only thing that has changed now is that now I am 24 and stupid. I don't like to feel like a victim. I am embarased of my family and friends finding out that he is not the amazing guy they all think he is. Actually when we were engaged I left him and went to my parents for suport. They made me feel like I was being unreasonable and that I should go back and apologize to him for leaving....my mom started crying saying that I will embarass them since they had already invited family to the wedding. I am very mad at them. At this point I don't make enough to live on my own since I moved to a new city for him to follow his career. I've never lived on my own. I refuse to go live with my parents. I'd much rather live under a bridge and I would be happier. I really don't know what to do.

I don't want to be the bad wife that left her husband when he needed her, but how much jerky abusive behavior can low T justify???


Any women dealing or have dealt with this? Dr doesn't want to put him on treatment due to the fact that he is worried it will mess with his fertility. So he sudgested we have kids first and then they will look at it again. I obviously don't want kids with him anymore because I don't want to risk raising kids in an environment where dad cries and yells all the time and hits me.
My dad used to yell at my mom and belittle her and hit her sometimes in front of us. I never knew how much it effected me until I look back in my life and see who I married. My husband had showed me abusive behavior since we were dating...I don't know why I stayed? No idea why I married him anymore. I always thought that just love wasn't enough to marry someone and here I am married to a man I love that treats me horribly when he is upset. And he happens to be upset pretty much 90% of the time now.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

How much jerky abusive behavior does low T justify? None. You're entitled to be treated with respect regardless. Especially when it comes to physical abuse.

Personally, I'd start with the low T therapy, as without a change in behavior, there's no concerns about fertility. Don't even think of bringing a child into an abusive relationship; you're already at least a second generation abused spouse. Why would you inflict that on a child?

And if he thinks therapy is expensive, ask him to price out a divorce...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I didn't have to read beyond him hitting you once a week.

Leave.

My ex husband was very emotionally abusive and I can tell you:

Abusers don't change. Or rather, they do--they get worse over time.

And your thread title is spot on--when not abusing, they are great. It's the other times that are the nightmare.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I see no reason to continue this marriage.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

TGW, I commend you for at least recognizing your situation. Most women come here complaining about the same as you and seem clueless at the same time. However, you are guilty of the same routine of finding reasons to stay by locking yourself in for all the reasons you can't leave. Put that same kind of energy and thought process in reverse to find a way to get out. Take a 9-month course so you will at least be employable (although much better educated women still cannot make themselves leave). If you want to get out, you will.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi The_Good_Wife ~

Rage, anger, and slapping you are not symptoms of low T. That is simply abuse.

And him telling you that you essentially "made him do it" is an abuser's talk.

Look at something like the following for more insight:

Amazon.com: Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men (9780425191651): Lundy Bancroft: Books

You do not have to feel like a victim if you do not want to. Gather the shreds of your courage and self-respect around you, and start to make a plan. Make a plan for your freedom and escape. 

Do you have any close friends? Do you have any family close by that you can confide in, that you could stay with? If you have access to a computer, you can search for many fine organizations directly within your community that could be of assistance. Reach out to them for help. Please.

Do not stay in a situation simply because others like to have the wool pulled over their eyes. Do not let the wool be pulled over your eyes either. Rip it right off and let it all come to the light of day - let yourself see with clear eyes.

Best wishes.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

The_Good_Wife said:


> How much more can I be there for him and justify his behaviour on the low T?


GoodWife, I agree with Enchantment that the behaviors you describe are not those associated with low T. That illness causes low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, and tiredness. It cannot explain the childish, abusive behaviors you are describing.


> I think he is bipolar.


The behaviors you describe -- i.e., the low self esteem, verbal and physical abuse, suicide threats, lack of impulse control, emotional instability, blame-shifting, and sudden flips between adoring and hating you -- are not traits of bipolar. Rather, they are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found eight clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is that the mood swings are on two very different spectrums having different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. This is consistent with your complaint that "he treats me SO GOOD....when he is not mad!"

A second difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore is consistent with your description of your H's numerous temper tantrums.

A third difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages are consistent with with the tantrums you describe.

A fourth difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the behavior you describe is consistent with these event-triggered outbursts.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar and low T can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by medication, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. 

A sixth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of very hateful, spiteful behavior.

A seventh difference is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which is consistent with your description.

Finally, an eighth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. 

Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these eight clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder.


> He refuses counseling due to "it's expensive."


Because BPDers (i.e., those with strong BPD traits) have fragile weak egos and very little self awareness, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy and stay in it long enough to make a difference in his behavior. But, of course, therapy is exactly what your H needs.

I caution that, if your H actually has strong BPD traits, they would not lie hidden for years and then suddenly appear in the last year of your marriage. Instead, you would have started seeing red flags at the end of the honeymoon period. I assume this is the case because he first slapped you five years ago, when you were 19.


> I was 19 and stupid. The only thing that has changed now is that now I am 24 and stupid.


No, if your H has strong BPD traits, there is absolutely nothing "stupid" about falling in love with a BPDer. It would be hard to do otherwise. When BPDers are good, they are very VERY good. The honeymoon period therefore typically is extremely romantic and passionate -- beyond anything you've ever seen in a movie or read in a romance novel. BPDers exude a warmth and emotional purity that otherwise is only seen in young children.

Later, when the abusive hateful side starts to come out, it is common for a caregiver spouse (like you and me) to stay around for years -- mistakenly thinking that she can restore him to that wonderful human being she saw at the beginning, if only she can figure out what SHE is doing wrong. Of course, that attitude is a big mistake because it is impossible to satisfy a BPDer or make him happy.


> I don't like to feel like a victim.


You shouldn't feel like a victim. You're not. Rather, you are _part of the problem_. A toxic marriage cannot last for five years without the willing participation of both parties. Your contribution to the toxicity is your willingness to keep trying to be the "soothing object," trying to calm your H down. In that way, you have been allowing him to behave like a spoiled, angry young child -- AND GET AWAY WITH IT!

By being "an enabler," you've destroyed his best chance of having to confront his issues and to learn how to manage them. His only opportunity to grow up and manage his issues will occur when you start allowing him to suffer the logical consequences of his own bad behavior. Otherwise, you will continue harming him by sheltering him from the reality that, when a grown man behaves like spoiled child, his wife will walk out. That is the logical consequence.


> I am embarrassed of my family and friends finding out that he is not the amazing guy they all think he is.


Yes, when you walk out, you will be embarrassed. And you likely will lose many of your "common friends" because they have never seen his dark side. If your H is a high functioning BPDer, he handles casual friends, business associates, and strangers just fine. None of those folks pose a threat to his two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close LTR to be abandoned and there is no intimacy to cause engulfment. This is why a BPDer can be generous and warm all day long to complete strangers -- but will go home at night to abuse the very people who love him.


> I obviously don't want kids with him anymore because I don't want to risk raising kids in an environment where dad cries and yells all the time and hits me.


Smart decision. Moreover, if your H has strong BPD traits, he may pass them along to your children. Such traits are believed to be the result of genetics and/or a bad childhood environment.

Whether his BPD traits are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of such traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as emotional instability, inability to trust, verbal abuse, and physical abuse. Hence, although I do not know whether your H has most BPD traits at a strong level, I nonetheless am confident that you can spot the red flags for such traits if you take time to find out what to look for. 

I therefore suggest that you read more about them to see if most seem to describe your H's dysfunctional behaviors. An easy place to start is my description of those traits in Maybe's thread about his angry wife. It starts at My list of hell!. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, GoodWife.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi The_Good_Wife ~
> 
> *Rage, anger, and slapping you are not symptoms of low T. That is simply abuse.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Bingo! 

And that book recommendation is excellent. You can get it at your local library for free. I second that you read it.


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## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

uptown wow1
thnx for this reply. I will read it again more carefully. I do see now that he doesn't have bipolar behaviour, but BPD possibly(very very likely!). Your post really is helping me a lot. 


*You shouldn't feel like a victim. You're not. Rather, you are part of the problem. A toxic marriage cannot last for five years without the willing participation of both parties. Your contribution to the toxicity is your willingness to keep trying to be the "soothing object," trying to calm your H down. In that way, you have been allowing him to behave like a spoiled, angry young child -- AND GET AWAY WITH IT!

By being "an enabler," you've destroyed his best chance of having to confront his issues and to learn how to manage them. His only opportunity to grow up and manage his issues will occur when you start allowing him to suffer the logical consequences of his own bad behavior. Otherwise, you will continue harming him by sheltering him from the reality that, when a grown man behaves like spoiled child, his wife will walk out. That is the logical consequence*

Yes I have been allowing him to act like a spoiled, angry young child! We haven't been married for 5 years though. We've only been married for a few months. Most of our relationship before we got engaged was long distance. When he proposed (3years after we started dating), I was emotionally getting ready to move on because in my head it just didn't make sense to stay with a guy that has treated me the way he had. He proposed to me and it was either say "yes" and marry him hoping that after the wedding I will never get to see his evil side; or say "no" and lose him forever with the risk that I will never find a guy as amazing as him. I have tried so many times to break up. I've never had the suport of anyone. I've had friends and family convincing me to stay with him. My friends and family ADORE HIM!!! Which has made me think of things I am doing wrong in the relationship that make him explode so much. He is SO gentle, SO respectful just so considerate and amazing TO OTHERS and to me (when not mad).


I will visit one of the websites you suggested on that other threat:BPDfamily.com. Anything else you can suggest me will be welcomed.


Thnx so much


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

The_Good_Wife said:


> I remember the first time he slapped me...I really thought it was my fault and apologized to him for making him mad. I was 19 and stupid. The only thing that has changed now is that now I am 24 and stupid.
> 
> My dad used to yell at my mom and belittle her and hit her sometimes in front of us. I never knew how much it effected me until I look back in my life and see who I married. My husband had showed me abusive behavior since we were dating


You are both in way over your heads here. The effect of multigenerational physical abuse is too big for anyone to handle on their own. There is no way either of you is going to be able to "will" yourselves or your marriage into a safe relationship without external assistance. Every slap or push increases the likelihood that the next time will be worse. There is no happy ending without intervention.


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## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi The_Good_Wife ~
> 
> Rage, anger, and slapping you are not symptoms of low T. That is simply abuse.
> 
> ...


Thnx so much for the suggestion!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

The_Good_Wife said:


> My friends and family ADORE HIM!!! Which has made me think of things I am doing wrong in the relationship that make him explode so much. He is SO gentle, SO respectful just so considerate and amazing TO OTHERS and to me (when not mad).


Like your H, my exW is adored by folks who are not really close to her. Indeed, she has such a wonderful, warm personality that, after knowing her for just a half hour, complete strangers have the feeling they've known her for months. 

In general, BPDers exude a warmth and purity of emotions that is extremely disarming to other people. This is because people are not used to meeting other adults having the emotional development of a four year old. They therefore find it very charming. Moreover, BPDers -- lacking a strong sense of who they are to guide them -- make a determined effort to fit in and behave like the other people expect them to behave.


> I will visit one of the websites you suggested .... Anything else you can suggest to me will be welcomed.


In addition to the website, I offer the following suggestions. First, if you decide that your H likely has most BPD traits at a strong level, don't tell him. If he really is a BPDer, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you. He therefore will be convinced that YOU are the one having strong BPD traits. Likewise, it would not be wise to tell anyone in his family. It likely will not be well received. After all, if he has strong traits, he likely got them from someone in his immediate family.

Second, I suggest you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells_, the #1 best selling BPD book targeted to the spouses and partners. And, if you decide to divorce, an excellent book (released just six months ago) is _Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ It is by Randi Kreger, the same author who wrote _Eggshells._ If you want to read something by another author, I recommend _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me_, which is the #2 best selling BPD book.

Third, I suggest you encourage your H to see a good clinical psychologist. Of course, there is little chance he will go unless you walk out and he has to do it to get you back. Even then, there is a near-zero chance of you being told he "has BPD" -- even if he does. Therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of his disorder. They know that insurance companies usually refuse to cover it. They also know that a HF BPDer will almost certainly quit therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis. And they know that, in the unlikely event he continues therapy, giving him a new identity as "a BPDer" can actually make his behavior worse (with him starting to exhibit all 9 traits instead of 5 or 6).

Because his therapist is unlikely to speak candidly with him (much less with you), my fourth suggestion is that you see your own therapist to obtain a candid opinion as to what it is you are dealing with. Relying on his _therapist's_ advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on his _attorney's_ advice during the divorce. You need professional guidance from someone who is ethically obligated to protect you, not him. 

Of course, your own psychologist will be unable to render a formal diagnosis without treating the man himself. The best you can hope for would be for him to say "it sounds like you are dealing with...." Yet, if he is very cautious and conservative, you may not get that much out of him. This is why, as a fallback, it is important that you learn how to spot the red flags yourself. 

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

Moreover, for the purpose of deciding whether to remain married to him (not to treat him), it doesn't matter whether his BPD traits are so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." Even when those traits fall well short of that threshold, they can make your life miserable and undermine a marriage. 

If his traits are only at 80% of the diagnostic threshold -- implying he "doesn't have BPD" -- you will still be nearly as unhappy as you would when they are at 100%. For your purposes, then, the relevant threshold is the level of BPD traits that makes your marriage unsustainable, regardless of whether they are so strong as to meet the diagnostic threshold.

Finally, my fifth suggestion is to take a look at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. If your H has strong BPD traits, that Article 9 likely will be very helpful. The other articles at that site are good too. Most are written by mental health professionals.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Here's another very good article that will help you understand your husband and distinguish between narcissistic traits and those of a borderline.

Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong

And just a note to let you know both of these personalities are loved by everyone around them. Mine was a narcissist to the core. I'd known him my entire life, and we didn't get together until I was 32. I loved him. My family loved him. Everyone thought he was a great guy. He was great to me too......until he became my boyfriend. Then, no one believed anything I said about him. No one believed how badly he was treating me. I felt stupid for even trying to tell them, and then I just felt alone by not having anyone to talk to. The only thing I knew was that I was not going to continue being treated that way. I left in just short of 3 months. I had no idea I was being abused. I had no idea there was a name or explanation for his behavior. All I knew was that I didn't like it and wasn't going to take it any longer. My head was swimming for a while trying to understand what was going on and what on earth had happened to that great guy I'd always known. Three months was long enough for me to get the clue that it didn't matter what happened. No way was I staying any longer to figure it out.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

GoodWife, I agree with River that narcissistic traits are worth considering too. As I understand it, there are three major differences between BPD and NPD. First, whereas NPDers are emotionally stable, BPDers are not. This instability is why BPDers flip back and forth between loving and hating you and do much more of the push-you-away and pull-you-back behavior. 

That flip usually occurs in ten seconds based on some innocuous thing you said or did. Once a person has been subjected to this cycle a dozen times -- being alternately adored and hated -- she starts feeling like an addict who is alternating between heroine highs one day and heroine withdrawal pains the next.

This is why a BPDer relationship is considered so addictive and toxic. And this is why one distinguishing hallmark of a BPDer relationship is a strong feeling by the nonBPD partner that she may be losing her mind. It therefore is very common for the partners to go running to a therapist to find out if they are going crazy. Although the partners of narcissists also are treated abusively, it is unusual for them to feel they are going crazy.

Second, although NPDers also do the push-pull (but to a lesser extent), they do not do it because of altering between the abandonment fear and engulfment fear like BPDers. Rather, the NPDers typically do it because, once you return to them, they lose interest in you and start taking you for granted -- i.e., they do not feel engulfed or suffocated like the BPDers. 

Like the BPDers, NPDers can rage in response to your comments. Yet, the rage usually is in response to your disagreeing with them, thus refusing to validate their false image of being a person who is always right. In contrast, the BPDers get furious not only when you disagree but also when you say anything triggering their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

Third, whereas BPDers typically are caring individuals who actually can love you (albeit in a very impaired and immature manner), NPDers are not truly caring and do not love you. Instead, they consider you a useful object when you are supporting their false self image and a non-useful object when you are not supportive. Hence, if your H genuinely loves you when he is not mad -- as you seem to believe he does -- you are describing a behavior that is a BPD trait, not an NPD trait.

Finally, I note that your H may have strong traits of both of those disorders. For one thing, BPD traits have a strong element of narcissism because BPD overlaps NPD (as well as some other PDs) to some degree. For another thing, most people who are diagnosed with having one PD also have one or two others as well. This occurs because the ten personality disorders (PDs) are not separate diseases. Indeed, there is no known disease that causes any of them. 

The PDs, then, are only groups of symptoms (i.e., traits) that therapists commonly see occurring together in a pattern. And, because the APA created too many of these symptom groups, most PD sufferers have two or three of them. This is why the new diagnostic manual (to be released a year from this May) is consolidating the number of PDs from 10 to 6 (yes, BPD and NPD are being retained).


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## smith9800 (Mar 7, 2012)

I can't find a single reason, you marked him with the tag of low T. But i agree that it is abusive....


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## The_Good_Wife (Jan 13, 2012)

smith9800 said:


> I can't find a single reason, you marked him with the tag of low T. But i agree that it is abusive....


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...2-will-low-t-treatment-change-my-husband.html


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## Gratitude (Feb 12, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Abusers don't change. Or rather, they do--they get worse over time.


I know two males in my life, one younger and one older who were abusive, both learning from their own fathers. They both eventually sought help through counselling and treatment, and acknowledging their behaviour which is one of the biggest factors in abusers continuing. They lost relationships along the way through their behaviour and they own that now. They caused hurt and were wrong and don't make excuses. Many abusers do not change and indeed do get worse, but not all. Comments like this don't give people hope in others or themselves. You can change your life and yourself, no matter how bad or hopeless it may seem, at any time. Abusers certainly can change given they are willing and with the appropriate steps. I understand your view comes from personal experience and so does mine. I have been through certain things, and I have seen people change. Enormously. So lets not generalise.

To the OP, if your husband cannot acknowledge what he is doing and take steps to change it, why would you stay. Whatever the reason he is like this, it is not your fault. It is not acceptable, it does not matter how long you have been together or what any of your family think. This is your life, you know you deserve better so take control of it and don't make excuses for him anymore. He can either try to fix himself or not, either way his behaviour does not need to be your burden to carry anymore. Leaving may be hard but trust me, you introduce children into this, and it will be a nightmare. One which you have no right to expose any child to. Do the right thing, for you. You have the right to be treated well and respected even when your partner is mad. Do not be his outlet.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

That is all absolute bull****. Low T is no reason to act that way toward anyone much less your wife. My T was so low it was nonexistent. It did make me depressed enough that very occasionally I would cry and I hated it because it made me feel like even less of a man to do that. I never treated my wife like that. Thank God treatment fixed that but he is just using that as an excuse to be able to act like an ass. Put your foot down girl.


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