# Neediness and Expectations



## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I have been kicking around some thoughts in my head and would like to understand some things better. I welcome your criticism, as I expect much of what I say goes against the general grain of TAM.

Neediness - Reading a recent thread, a wife is upset with her needy husband. The husband is pretty well bashed in the thread, being called needy, immature, a man-child, etc. Sure enough, the resolution of the thread was that his needs were not met, which was likely the cause of the neediness.

There are extreme cases but why aren't expressions of neediness considered a welcome gesture more often? The woman who complains that her husband does not listen, the man that cries out for more attention - these things seem to be very serious warning signs in a marriage that should not be glossed over. Story after story of walk away wives/husbands, and yet when people come forward with their needs, they are dismissed as needy.

For example, in the thread, something was said to the effect of "a half hour of time each day should be more than sufficient". This seems to fly in the face of the husbands' pleas that it is in fact not sufficient, but also guidelines put forward from respected martial folks like W. Harley. Why is it so important to be right? Why is it so hard to listen?

If expressions of need were thought of more positively, I have a feeling more marriages would survive. There are also times where I see a poster complaining about neediness and I instinctively assume they are labeling their own spouse rather than address their own issues and possible failings for the betterment of the marriage.

Which leads to...

Expectations - So many posts on the board view expectations and entitlements within a marriage as negative. Is that really true?

For instance, a common topic on TAM is a spouse's weight gain after marriage. Yet, we have a very well respected poster - I think it's MEM but am not sure - who has posted on more than one occasion that he and his wife communicated their expectations about weight and attraction prior to the marriage and it has worked out quite well for them.

In addition, most would agree that discussing the particulars of married life - how many kids do we want, own/rent/live where?, etc. - is a very important step before getting married. Isn't that just communicating expectations and making sure that everyone is on the same page prior to starting a marriage?

In conclusion, yes, I understand that there are spouses out there that are ridiculously needy or ridiculously entitled, but I am not talking about the extreme cases. In general, I think that expressions of neediness and setting expectations are quite positive and fall under healthy communication. I think more often that not, instead of labeling someone as needy or countering people by saying that expectations of a spouse are a marriage killer, we should be grateful our spouses make themselves vulnerable and put their needs, hopes, and dreams on the line for their partner to hear.

Sure, spouses cannot meet every need, but things like quality time with a mate, the deep intimate connection we get from a spouse, and healthy sexual fulfillment are things that can only be fulfilled with one's spouse. If a spouse speaks up, I think more folks should listen and take them more seriously.

"Don't be needy", "Don't have expectations" - much of the time, those lines seem like such a cop out from a spouse that doesn't want to try in a marriage. Eh, maybe I'm projecting from my own situation. Bash away.

PS

I used some ideas and threads as a basis for the thread; please forgive me as no personal attacks are intended. My memory is pretty bad so it's the ideas that I'm commenting on, not the people. Thanks for understanding.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Having needs isn't the same as being needy.

The confusion between the 2 creates huge problems.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Having needs isn't the same as being needy.
> 
> The confusion between the 2 creates huge problems.


My thoughts exactly.

Calling a spouse needy is quite a judgment in the grand scheme of things.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I actually now believe that ongoing 'neediness' is an expression of fear. The person who is needy feels that the relationship has destabilized and they are looking for reassurance ... and quite often in seeking that reassurance, they further destabilize the relationship.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

It seems like there is a lot going on before people get to ongoing neediness though.

Wife: I really need more help around the house.
Husband: *whoosh*
Wife: I'm swamped, help, I need more help around the house.
Husband: *whoosh*

weeks later:

Wife: You can't go camping with the guys, the house is falling apart.
Husband: WTF. Why is she so needy?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

What I think marriages are missing is synergy. I'll use the wife with the needy husband as an example. Okay she's working a full time job and is raising a special needs child. And he's TWO btw. There are only 24 hours in a day and quite frankly I bet she doesn't have 30 minutes a day free with everything else she does. And no it won't be enough for her husband. Not even close. He is only going to feel like another chore (and everyone here knows I'm right). In his needs her needs it's recommended that spouses spend 15 hours a week together. 30 minutes x 7 = is 3 hours. Not enough.

Is he needy? Maybe....maybe not. Is she being honest about her time constraints? This I'm certain of. Yes.

So what do they do. So far he's whined, she's exhausted and building resentment. NOTHING gets accomplished and meanwhile they grow further and further apart. What should happen is each of them brainstorm and think outside the box to find solutions. BOTH OF THEM not just her. 

That is synergy and if done correctly BOTH spouses get their needs met and it's win/win.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Mavash. said:


> I bet she doesn't have 30 minutes a day free with everything else she does.


Ah ... but that is _her_ perspective. That is at least how she feels ... regardless of whether that 30 minutes is more like a few hours. Nonetheless if the message that 'needy' husband is sending, is "I'd just like some together time to touch base and reconnect ..." she just sees it as another body wanting something from her and hears "I want sex from you."

Welcome to the death spiral ...

I lived this, so I know what you are talking about. Nearly 90% of marriages with special needs kids end in divorce, and I feel very comfortable making the comment that the child's needs are seldom if ever the issue.

Needs and expectations are part of life. But ... I do agree that for those couples that find the magic balance of synergy, communication and investment in meeting one another's needs and you've got something special.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Nearly 90% of marriages with special needs kids end in divorce, and I feel very comfortable making the comment that the child's needs are seldom if ever the issue.


I figured it was likely higher than the average - but I never realized it was THAT high.

As for the half hour she has? I'm sure it feels that way. If she's a selfish person at heart, it likely doesn't matter if she has a special needs child or not.

And how many times does he step up and "help" with whatever, and then she simply schedules more with the kids?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Acorn,

What a great thread. This subject touches on the cultural and biological differences between men and women, the differences between persons with stable and chaotic upbringings and the differences between persons with selfish and service world outlooks, all in one thread.

Ideally, one's expectations of their marriage partner would be brought out in the open before marriage. If things did not appear to match up in a satisfactory fashion we could just say thanks, but no thanks. A lot of people have expectations that they are not consciously aware of so they don't bring them up. Likewise, people often assume that because they match up on big cultural and demographic categories they will have similar expectations.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

I'm about to hit 40 and in the past couple of months have become very needy for my wife's affection. I know it's the onset of MLC because I'm having all these thoughts of what if...

She's been very patient and has let alot slide. I'm just gonna have to put my head down and move past this. I know she loves me but I've gotten petty at times. 

If she hugs the kids, I'm like WTF, where's mine. She gives the kids a kiss, where's mine. She does something for the kids and same deal, where's mine. WTF!!!

Had to trade in the sports car for a mini-van, beginning to plan for my oldest going to college in 8 years. Growing old sucks!


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Kids who grow up in households where their needs are routinely left unmet may try to get those childhood needs met in adulthood. This can result in their spending all their adult time fulfilling their own needs with nothing left for their spouse. Work and kids are viewed as extensions of oneself so complete dedication to work and children (to the exclusion of one's spouse) is really dedication to oneself. While this is indeed selfishness and selfishness is a choice, we can see how sometimes this choice is not a conscious one but a choice made by compulsion, the same as drinking or overeating.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

cheatinghubby said:


> I'm about to hit 40 and in the past couple of months have become very needy for my wife's affection. I know it's the onset of MLC because I'm having all these thoughts of what if...
> 
> She's been very patient and has let alot slide. I'm just gonna have to put my head down and move past this. I know she loves me but I've gotten petty at times.
> 
> ...


Nip that one in the bud.

You're not one of the kids.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

If your spouse asks you to do something you don't want to do.. they are being needy. TAM theory, anyways.

In a lot of cases, forum boards "teach" being selfish.
Frustrated users who come here learn very quickly that marriage is about being selfish.

Put yourself first. Make sure your needs are met, cut your spouse off if they aren't putting you first. Consequences for not doing it.
It has merit, and shouldn't be taken out of context in that way.

When I came here, I believed in the theory that MOST of the time people just don't listen to each other, really. I still believe that.

Dismissing what someone says as being needy is an opinion. Theirs.
If y'all really don't want to give to your partner, tell them so. 

Expectations are what your mother warned you about. But I didn't listen to my mother either. I like to make my own mistakes, thanks.

Knowing yourself first and foremost is a good thing to spend time on. Less disappointment in the end.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I now view my Ex as a special needs child. Just an older one.

It all makes sense now...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

deejov said:


> If your spouse asks you to do something you don't want to do.. they are being needy


Only if it's the man asking


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I now view my Ex as a special needs child. Just an older one.
> 
> It all makes sense now...


Sounds like a joke but you may be right


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Only if it's the man asking


Yeah, if it's the woman asking it's called being a nag.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

A Bit Much said:


> Yeah, if it's the woman asking it's called being a nag.


Absolutely. Or too demanding


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Acorn this is a really good thread.

I didn't give the guy in the other thread too much grief about his perceived neediness. I understood where they both were coming from.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

The only thing you can control at the end of the day is YOU.

Not sure if it was Covey's theory - but the idea of focusing on what you can control will EXPAND your circle of control.

FOCUSING on things you can't control while neglecting yourself leads you nowhere.

When we FOCUS on making other people happy, but neglect ourselves, then we lose their respect.

We're all needy at times. I really didn't realize Expectations were a bad thing - they really just aren't discussed enough.

And at the end of the day - sad but true - that other person can walk away no matter what you've done for them! Happens 50% of the time...


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Acorn said:


> For example, in the thread, something was said to the effect of "a half hour of time each day should be more than sufficient". This seems to fly in the face of the husbands' pleas that it is in fact not sufficient, but also guidelines put forward from respected martial folks like W. Harley. Why is it so important to be right? Why is it so hard to listen?


I think that expressions of need for connection are probably good. Expressing that you desire and love your spouse, that you value what that person brings to your life, and that you crave connection are part of what helps a romance to thrive. Unfortunately, there's a problem about how to regulate what you need from a spouse; this is usually what is manifest in many of these posts.

I think that most people who try to toughen up a needy poster are attempting to explain that self-sufficiency is also important and that it is necessary to be self-sufficient rather than to automatically expect one's spouse to be a limitless resource for comfort and support because that is overly taxing to most relationships.

I think that a lot of people on this forum are also reeling from having been hurt by relying on the support and integrity of spouses who have betrayed their trust, too, so the desire to recommend self-sufficiency comes from a desire to protect the self from harm. Being vulnerable is so important in an intimate partnership, but it is unwise to remain vulnerable to an exploitative or insensitive spouse and to put one's entire well-being into the hands of that spouse by expecting that spouse to be a limitless source of gratification.

It isn't more important to be right. Compromise and forgiveness are better than righteousness and rejection...but the context in which they are given has to be considered. Most of the time, people on forums just react to the general tone or idea presented in the post, in a sort of ameliorative manner. That's to be expected.

I agree with your perception that sometimes people are overly tough, a little insensitive. I think, though, that it often comes from a place of "tough love".

And, I agree with your perspective that people's needs should be honored rather than repressed, that looking at *why* someone is feeling needy toward his/her spouse is an important question to look at, too.

You've raised some interesting questions.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

There's a good reason why childhood issues are so large in this discussion.

If someone has PTSD - or some other similar disorder - actually admitting that they did something wrong exposes them to the fear of harsh punishment.

Notice what I said.

"Exposes them to the fear"

People will do damned near anything to avoid being exposed to their internal fears, including blameshifting, rug sweeping, right fighting, up to and sometimes including physical violence.

Good luck getting someone like that to take responsibility for their actions - or to empathize when their partner is hurt.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

deejov said:


> In a lot of cases, forum boards "teach" being selfish.
> Frustrated users who come here learn very quickly that marriage is about being selfish.
> 
> Put yourself first. Make sure your needs are met, cut your spouse off if they aren't putting you first. Consequences for not doing it.


I agree with this assessment of the overall trends on the board. I think it's also reactionary advice, often focused on self-preservation or the idea that one must protect the self. 

In my opinion, "cutting off the spouse" for failing to put the other spouse first is problematic because it does encourage withholding affection. It borders on emotional blackmail, I think. At the same time, it's often the best way to deal with a situation that has become dysfunctionally imbalanced in a "don't feed the problem" sort of way. It does seem to be suggested too often, though, because it doesn't take into account the mutuality of marriage. This is a useful tactic when dealing with addictive behavior or something like that, but in a mostly healthy relationship, it seems more like a control tactic than like a communicative or collaborative one.

Promoting selfishness isn't generally a good thing within a marriage, but it's often the quickest way to address a grievance by a poster. 

Good points you've made. Balancing self and partnership are so tough to do and slipping into emotional blackmail is easy; protecting boundaries and voicing dissatisfaction shouldn't slip into emotional blackmail.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Terminology, terminology, terminology....

"Selfishness"

No one really thinks that's the right road.

Yet, being continually generous in the face of abuse is the road to hell.

What do you call it?

Tempering your giving spirit with wisdom?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

And please remember, most of the people with "Happy" marriages aren't coming here looking for answers.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> And please remember, most of the people with "Happy" marriages aren't coming here looking for answers.


At a rough guess I would say about 100% of them.


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## PooDoo (Aug 12, 2011)

Acorn - great thread - love the discussion. If you told me 1 year ago that I would be active on TAM I would have chuckled! I'm at the end of my own MLC - and have been very needy the past few years - I admit it. Not at all for the first 23 years of our marriage. It started slowly over time - and it got to the point that I was miserable most of the time (lost some weight, so that was good). I came to TAM looking for some answers and yes I too was called 'needy' - duh. I had never told my w how I was feeling - never. So I started which was very hard for me (still is a struggle at times) and it wasn't registering to her - so I can relate to the 'Whoosh' conversation in one of your posts. Our marriage is better than its' been in years because I expressed my 'needyness' to her. I need her - it's not a bad thing to say is it?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Terminology, terminology, terminology....
> 
> "Selfishness"
> 
> ...


I included the sentence that it shouldn't be taken out of context too, but my thoughts are fair game, and I stand by it.

I do still think that labelling someone as needy is an opinion.
You form that opinion of someone when they exhibit behaviors that are self centered and seem to "need" more from you than they give back.

You can't really call someone needy without being selfish.
Means you are measuring one against the other. That's all I meant.

It does not change the underlying theme of any relationship, good or bad. Know yourself first, clean up your own corner, cuz that's all you control.

Sometimes selfish is good. You can't be a good partner to someone if you are messed up yourself.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I have quite often prescribed a healthy dose of 'selfishness', and I'm making the leap that people will understand that I'm not advocating entitlement, greed, or arrogance.

It's far easier for some people to seek out external acknowledgment, approval or gratification from others, and use that as their fuel, and guage, for how they interpret the self.

That sounds way more new-agey and temporal than I intended. 

My ex DEFINATELY thought I was needy. And at the time that I knew our relationship was slipping away, you're damn right I was afraid. But I don't think I was capable of labeling that way at the time.

But as was pointed out earlier in the thread, my ex didn't need me to meet her emotional needs. She had the role of 'mom' for that. And I'm not mocking it ... but, her completely and utterly excluding the needs of the marriage was something I was unprepared for.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

deejov said:


> I do still think that labelling someone as needy is an opinion.
> You form that opinion of someone when they exhibit behaviors that are self centered and seem to "need" more from you than they give back.


I think the "needy" label is a backhanded diss. It tries to threaten the masculine core by judging against the traditional male stereotype


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Acorn,
This is great. And yes - we did have that conversation. And because it is important to both of us, she has always stayed in good to great shape. 

I let myself go for 2 years or so a ways back. She was patient, she was kind. She was understanding. Finally she became resentful (completely fair) and got more direct about it. And the fitness plus a lack of "behavioral zip/edge/playful aggressiveness" on my part caused our first ever sexual disruption. 

So here is the interesting thing about that. We both knew what was happening. I was mainly feeling sorry for myself - no excuse for it but I was. Her desire for ME, disappeared. This was not a drive problem it was a desire/resentment problem. 

The way we limped along is every 5 days I would express my "needs" in a blunt manner. I believe the expression I consistently used was "babe I am dying". Emphasis on the last word. And she responded the same way with - "I am all over it". And we would connect that night. Every 5 days was painful for both of us. She would have preferred zero, and I would have liked 4 times a week. 

And eventually I found the "reboot" button and fixed myself. 

When we married I had a longer "list" of expectations. Now just one: "I expect to be a consistently high priority to my W, just as she is to me". I believe we rarely disappoint each other on that front. 





Acorn said:


> I have been kicking around some thoughts in my head and would like to understand some things better. I welcome your criticism, as I expect much of what I say goes against the general grain of TAM.
> 
> Neediness - Reading a recent thread, a wife is upset with her needy husband. The husband is pretty well bashed in the thread, being called needy, immature, a man-child, etc. Sure enough, the resolution of the thread was that his needs were not met, which was likely the cause of the neediness.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
I vividly remember the first time my W and I had "THAT" conversation. It went something like this.

Me: You just don't ever seem to "want" to
Her: I don't want to UNTIL after we start
Me: Why?
Her: I don't have the thunderous roar of testosterone raging through my system drowning out everything else in the world
Me: So what does that mean
Her: It means there is this never ending stream of random stuff going through my head - stuff that happened today with the kids, the schedule for tomorrow, the things I want to change about the house
Me: Oh (not sounding too happy)
Her: Once we get started - do I seem distracted or focused?
Me: Totally 100 percent focused. But now I am wondering - are you still thinking about all that other stuff when we are doing stuff? 
Her: Honestly, sometimes I am, mostly not. Are you unhappy with how THIS part of our marriage is?
Me: No way - I just want it to be fun for you
Her: It is
Me: ok - (accepting that we are more different than I realize, realizing that refusal to accept those differences will result in less honesty, openness, candor and intimacy (yes that most precious and fragile willingness to share parts of yourself that no one else has ever seen)

The special needs mothers - they tend to have a continuous and high level of anxiety about their children. They lack an "off" switch. This kills their sex life and ultimately the thing they need most - a healthy marriage. 




Deejo said:


> Ah ... but that is _her_ perspective. That is at least how she feels ... regardless of whether that 30 minutes is more like a few hours. Nonetheless if the message that 'needy' husband is sending, is "I'd just like some together time to touch base and reconnect ..." she just sees it as another body wanting something from her and hears "I want sex from you."
> 
> Welcome to the death spiral ...
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I wonder how wise it is for me to post even after one glass of wine.....

If I had to do it all over again - of course I would do some things differently. That said, I will summarize why my sense of entitlement was so large:
- My W had a need to be a SAHM
- And a need to have 3 children
- And a desire (totally understandable in my opinion) even after our youngest went to school full time, to avoid an incredibly tight schedule with work, race home to pick up kids from day care, and then do half/more than half the kid/house/cooking....
- And a long list of marital needs and wants

ALL of that seemed reasonable to me. I had a very short list of needs:
- Respect - this included recognition that after 60 hours of work (including commute) that we not have conversations about how much MORE I should help around the house
- A lot of sex
- Recognition that making all of her priorities my priorities was a big deal. Perhaps in one word: Appreciation

I had and continue to have a simple view of our dynamic. If my 3 needs (yes - a lot of sex was needed for me to be happily married), then I was with the wrong person. And we had a few conversations along the way on that very topic. Not many. But a few. 

Now my desire to make a ton of money is gone. As is my desire to have a ton of sex. Both of those changes feel good to me. 






Deejo said:


> I have quite often prescribed a healthy dose of 'selfishness', and I'm making the leap that people will understand that I'm not advocating entitlement, greed, or arrogance.
> 
> It's far easier for some people to seek out external acknowledgment, approval or gratification from others, and use that as their fuel, and guage, for how they interpret the self.
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> I wonder how wise it is for me to post even after one glass of wine.....
> 
> If I had to do it all over again - of course I would do some things differently. That said, I will summarize why my sense of entitlement was so large:
> - My W had a need to be a SAHM
> ...


Good grief MEM! You sound like you've given up your will to live!

Or - maybe just going through some normal transitions.

Bottom line though - you guys knew and understood those expectations - right?

But also in your story - your wants and needs are changing. So what happens to the original agreement? You tear it up and make a new one?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think if a husband declares his needs and expectations to his wife and although she is fully capable of fulfilling them she doesn’t, then he needs to look for the reasons why!

It’s not like say a spouse declaring an unreasonable need that cannot be fulfilled, say a holiday home on a beach in a far off country that simply cannot be afforded. Rather, these are fundamental needs and expectations that ANY person should be capable of meeting. Most especially to the person they profess to love!

My needs and expectations were I thought exceedingly easy to fulfil. Appreciation, Forgiveness and Emotional Honesty, AFEH. Simply. Right?

Yes. It is right that my wife could have easily fulfilled my needs and expectations. So why didn’t she?

Here it gets rather complicated and it took a total shift in my mindset (paradigm as Halien rightly refers to it) to even get close to some form of comprehension of what was actually going on in my wife’s mind.

My understanding started coming to me when I learned about resentment and passive aggression. I am/was such a forward looking kind of guy and so not passive that I didn’t even know these things existed! Let alone the fact that they were deeply affecting my marriage and my well being within my marriage.

It transpires that I had a wife that could both love (or at least declare that she loved me) and hate me at one and the same time! That she was living with me and taking from me all that I had to offer, while at the same time seriously disliking me! It is so massively two faced and unauthentic it’s unbelievable. And that’s why it’s so very difficult to get to any form of understanding.

It took me a very long time to understand that. Accepting it has taken even longer!


So as a very resentful, passive aggressive woman my wife consciously and deliberately withheld from me the things she fully knew (because I told her) what it was I needed (AFEH) to feel loved by her.


There is a thing called pathological embitterment. Within this context pathological means two things (1) unable to control part of their behaviour and (2) unreasonable. Of course the latter is very subjective.


So I had a wife sharing my bed, food at the table, cooking for me, taking all my love etc. etc. etc. who wouldn’t forgive me for things that happened and things that were supposed to have happened years and even decades before!

For me that is pathological embitterment. In that if I had ever done anything that was truly unforgivable to her then why on earth did she stay by my side for all the years in between the so called offences?


It was because of her pathological embitterment that she withheld the very things I told her I needed from her in order to feel loved by her. The really funny thing is I could have been exactly the same way as her. In that for example after catching her in the arms of another man I could have withheld from her what she needed in order to feel loved by me!


It’s all about how a person processes their pain and their anger that arises from their pain. It is about pain and anger management processes.


And in that my wife and I had two totally different pain and anger management processes. Mine was way up front and confrontational. I would go into conflict. And if I couldn’t get it resolved with my wife then I’d go into my own process of forgiveness. My motivation being to put it all behind me and move on.


My wife is totally conflict avoidant. She’s most definitely the “Don’t get mad, get even” passive type. So she held it all in and her pain and anger just grew and festered away inside of her until such a time she could bring it out in some revengeful act years and even decades later. Her brother though was far worse in that the expression of his pain and anger turned him into a mass murderer! They both learned their pain and anger “management processes” as pathological as they are/were from their mother who is I reckon one of the most pathologically embittered women on the planet.


At the end of the day there is a reason why a spouse does not respond to their partner’s needs and expectations even though they are fully able to. And in essence they behave that way in order to withhold their love. They do not want their spouse to actually feel loved by them because they are punishing them for some previous offence(s). In fact rather than feel loved, these types of spouses actually want their partners to feel pain!

And believe me that’s why it hurts. It was designed to hurt and it’s meant to hurt. So they succeeded! And the more you express your needs and expectations, the more they’ll deny and withhold them, the more they’ll hurt you and the more they succeed in hurting you!



It’s horrible and it’s truly ugly, very ugly. And it’s really nasty. And I believe that when the wife or husband behaves that way while living with their partner that sort of behaviour is truly evil.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm sorry to read this AFEH, that is truly very sad, and speaks loudly about the consequences of childhood and parenting.

People are not perfect, including me. I've been ashamed of the hurtful things I have said recently, mainly because it speaks against treat others the way I want to be treated, and don't fall into the trap of using HURT (withholding needs) to get what you want. 

I would rather try ever other way possible than mirror back behavior I wouldn't wish to be bestowed upon myself.

It's obvious from your post how very truly ugly and hurtful it is to withhold love from your partner.

Is it not equally just as cruel to then stop meeting the needs of such a wife? (if she is not meeting your needs for sex and love, then stop meeting her needs)

I know it seems justified, and it's a physcological warfare move at that point, but I think it's a dangerous slippery slope. One evil deed deserves another?

People treat you the way you let them treat you. Fear of being alone, the kids, etc. There is always a choice. To participate in the hurtful behavior, or choose not to let those type of people in your life. Choose to look at yourself first, fix what you can, ask for forgiveness, state your boundaries, and stick to your morals. Be the leader, or be the follower. 

I'm so sorry for your wife and her family. It's sad when a life is twisted that far. And cruel and unjustified for those who cross their paths. Know that your soul is your own.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Bob,

It's a shame your wife didn't ever get her Eureka moment and found the will to change, but continues to hold on to so much buried anger.

I have to say, since I found mine I've become the most mentally stable I think I've ever been in my life. Letting go of all that passive agressive behavior and literally tossing away past pain and resentment gave me incredible stability and clarity. 

It was hard to break those patterns learned throughout my entire childhood, and they still creep up on me, usually by surprise during a confrontation, but I immediately recognize those useless pattern now for what they are.

Lol. It's even helped me out at work. A rather agressive colleague was trying to force a decision on me. In the past I would have been silent, listened, then secretly resented him until such time I could "get even". That's just the way I learned how to cope growing up. Now, I just laughed at him, literally, in his face, and said "are you a bully [jim]? Because your acting like a bully?". That immediately shut him up. Small. I know. But for someone who's paradigm had to shift so great in the last two years that was a big change in my behavior.

Looking back over my life, I think I was very needy. But as Bobs wife did, if I didn't get what I want I'd go passive agressive, shut down, and resent.

Now......not so much. I definitely have needs, but somewhere along the line I realized the pursuit to get those needs met was almost as fun as the goal itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

cheatinghubby said:


> If she hugs the kids, I'm like WTF, where's mine. She gives the kids a kiss, where's mine. She does something for the kids and same deal, where's mine. WTF!!!


Does your wife know you feel this way? Have you communicated it to her? 

I'm just wondering because I can read my husband pretty well and sometimes he needs extra attention from me and he feels better. It's okay to be needy sometimes as long as you don't get stuck there permanently.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Kids who grow up in households where their needs are routinely left unmet may try to get those childhood needs met in adulthood. This can result in their spending all their adult time fulfilling their own needs with nothing left for their spouse.


THIS is exactly what happened to me and had I not sought LOTS of therapy I would have had no idea that I did this. Even now I tend to default to needy when triggered but with awareness I can control it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I've mentioned this in a previous thread, but it also applies here....

Through our marriage counseling, our therapist discussed paradigm that sometimes occurs, related to relative needs between a man and his wife.

Many men make the early assumption that because their wife is more in touch with feelings, and probably more mature, they will take the cricisms so seriously that they are no longer "her" needs, but "the needs of a healthy marriage". If this interpersonal dynamic takes hold, it can affect both partners, and the general happiness within the marriage.

In our marriage, my wife was always very dependent upon time together. It felt overwhelming to me at times, but I had never seen a decent example of marriage and just assumed it to be normal. Always, she felt that we never had enough time together. Before we had children, we almost literally spent every moment together (and had a really good sex life). I wasn't really blind to the fact that this was excessive, compared to other people, though, because we had many married friends. And, I had purposely decided to give up anything that would not help the marriage flourish. Problem was, she had a real problem with resentment, and I felt that it was very unfair, given our time together. 

Our story is more complicated than just this, but my point was that while I doubted myself very much, I also began to understand that her needs were pretty extreme compared to other marriages. I am an introspective person, and I need some basic time alone. To her, however, she was never unrealistic in her expectations, or neediness. She was very confident that this was a problem with the marriage, and not a neediness issue. The discussions with the therapist were very much an eye-opener for her. 

I'm not trying to paint this as a universal problem, or even a case where a wife would do this deliberately. I think, however, that an element of this dynamic can sneak into many areas of the marriage, outside of this topic. Especially when a couple rarely has sex, and the wife thinks that it is just normal.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

BTW my personal definition of neediness is when I look to others to make me feel good about myself.

Having needs is not the same thing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> BTW my personal definition of neediness is when I look to others to make me feel good about myself.
> 
> *Having needs is not the same thing.*


But it can be. How? If a person’s love language is Appreciation (Affirmation) then a simple thank you for the services they’ve provided makes them feel exceptionally good about themselves!

And if their services go totally unrecognised and unrewarded then it quickly spirals into feeling unappreciated and used and abused!

How long for example would you work knowing you’ll never get paid!

Why do you think it’s any different within a marriage?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> But it can be. How? If a person’s love language is Appreciation (Affirmation) then a simple thank you for the services they’ve provided makes them feel exceptionally good about themselves!
> 
> And if their services go totally unrecognised and unrewarded then it quickly spirals into feeling unappreciated and used and abused!
> 
> ...


Let me repeat. Neediness is when I look to someone else to make ME feel good about myself.

If words of affirmation is my love language then yes that is a genuine need. I should not however need words of affirmation to have high self esteem. The two are not connected.

Physical touch is my love language and in the context of a marriage it's a need. A high self esteem means I will communicate that need and if that need is not honored or respected I will move on. However I don't need to be touched to feel good about myself. I need it to feel loved by my spouse yes but not to feel good about myself. 

Make sense?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It makes sense if you are an introvert. Not if you are an extrovert.


Or to put it another way. It makes sense if you are you, but no sense if you are me!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> It makes sense if you are an introvert. Not if you are an extrovert.


I won't claim to be an expert on extroverts. The way I understand it is the difference between extroverts and introverts is simply where their energy comes from. Introverts recharge by being alone. Extroverts recharge by being with people.

Has nothing to do with self worth.

Yes extroverts NEED people which again is a genuine need not neediness.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> I won't claim to be an expert on extroverts. The way I understand it is the difference between extroverts and introverts is simply where their energy comes from. Introverts recharge by being alone. Extroverts recharge by being with people.
> 
> Has nothing to do with self worth.
> 
> Yes extroverts NEED people which again is a genuine need not neediness.


You haven’t got there yet. But maybe you’re getting closer? Let’s see.

A need becomes neediness when the need isn’t satisfied. Got it? Don’t worry if you haven’t.

Husband gets no sex for a long time? Sure as heck could become needy about sex. A SAHM not getting the mortgage paid by her bread winning husband? Sure as heck could become needy about losing her home. It’s to do with deprivation, deficiency, scarcity, denial, withdrawal, dispossession.

For example if you couldn’t take your next breath, how quickly would you become needy for air and just how panic stricken and desperate would you become. Same thing if you go without water for how long? Say two days before your tongue starts swelling etc. Boy wouldn’t you be needy for water. Food you can do without for a while longer, say three weeks before things seriously get desperate and “ahem” needy.

Did I manage to get you there?


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I think what Mavash means is that neediness is a bottomless pit. We all have needs, and we get married in the expectation that our needs will be met by our spouse. Like in Hailen's example, his wife's need for quality time was endless; no matter how much time he spent with her it was never enough because she was insecure in herself.

A legitimate need can be satisfied; a "needy" need is never enough because the "needy" spouse is a cup with a hole in it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> I think what Mavash means is that neediness is a bottomless pit. We all have needs, and we get married in the expectation that our needs will be met by our spouse. Like in Hailen's example, his wife's need for quality time was endless; no matter how much time he spent with her it was never enough because she was insecure in herself.
> 
> A legitimate need can be satisfied; a "needy" need is never enough because the "needy" spouse is a cup with a hole in it.


No, you missed it. You haven’t understood.

Halien did not deliberately and consciously withhold from his wife what she needed in order to feel loved by him! He did not do that. The fact that his wife is/was unsatisfiable in her need is another matter all together, although by no means trivial. In essence she’s saying she can never be satisfied in her need!

And nowhere did Halien say that he set out in a premeditated, well thought out and planned way to hurt his wife by withholding what she needs such that she became needy!!!

She started out needy. She didn’t develop her neediness through not getting what she needed!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

What? Hailen was trying to meet his wife's needs. He was not trying to hurt her. It was impossible to meet her needs until she became secure within herself.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> What? Hailen was trying to meet his wife's needs. He was not trying to hurt her. It was impossible to meet her needs until she became secure within herself.


English obviously isn't your first language.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

For me, this whole topic has been my focus for personal growth for the last few weeks, since my separation started.

I came to a conclusion that I was exceptionally needy in my marriage, especially near the end, like the dynamic Deejo talked about a bit. (I took it to very unhealthy levels since I did not have the honor or esteem to separate myself from the relationship without help, so for the longest time, it was a never-ending source of ever-increasing pain for me, and eventually my wife.)

At the same time, I realized that my needs weren't getting met, and that my needs in a relationship are pretty reasonable by most standards. This was a source of great unhappiness, and no amount of addressing my neediness would cure this problem.

I've been trying to work up to a point where I understand that in future relationships, if my partner reads as "needy" to me, that is an important moment to evaluate the relationship and what I'm willing to do to improve it. And, if I can't, it might be time to tell my partner I am worried I cannot meet her needs and a compromise is in order. I never ever want to reach a point where I throw up my hands and say, "How do I deal with such a needy person!", or have my partner throw her arms up and say, "You are impossible." If I get there, I feel like I would have done a real disservice to my partner.

At the same time, I want to understand that if I am reading myself as excessively needy, and I've worked hard to curb any immature behavior and/or childish needs on my end, it might be time to end things, assuming I've communicated to my partner what I need. There is no sense in creating that "death spiral" if my partner cannot or is not interested in working together on these needs. She may not be aware or even have the skills/tools to deliver on some things, which does not make her a bad person and I can still care about her and love her, but she's not the right partner for me.

I think on one end of the spectrum, there is outright dismissal of a partner ("He's so needy, how can I get him to stop?") and on the other end of the spectrum there is conflict avoidance. I want to move away from those unhealthy areas and try to find a sweet spot where we discuss things that are important to us and take enjoyment and value out of those discussions - in other words, they should be less painful than a root canal. I have tried to do this with my basic day-to-day interactions with people and have found amazing results.

I also want to feel comfortable expressing some basic expectations to those close to me and - this is the harder part - try to get them comfortable to open up to me and tell me what's on their mind too. I've tried this with others, and, even if I get a pent up earful, it's usually been worth it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think the really saddest part in love is when both partners truly love one another, but neither actually feel loved. For me that’s really sad.

My mum had need to stay with my in laws when my son got married. I asked her for her opinions. She told me she saw no love there. Yet both my FIL and MIL swore blind they loved one another!


Acorn they say that in the first part of our “adult” life we seek someone who is opposite to us such that together we can be a whole in order to raise a family. It makes sense to me. It takes more than one person to raise healthy boys and girls.

But then as time goes by, most especially when the nest has emptied our “oppositeness” becomes a real problem. We can actually turn around and ask ourselves “What am I getting out of this deal”, perhaps for the very first time! And then we can strive to communicate not only what we want out of the deal but also what we need. And hey presto we find that our unconditional love was never truly unconditional. So we start putting conditions on staying together.

It is then up to our partner to either step up to the line and be counted, or not. For me the fact that my wife didn’t told me every single thing about what she truly thought about me. About exactly where I stood in her world. Her actions were the truth, her words weren’t. In my case she should have told me a longer while back without me having to say my way or the highway.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You haven’t got there yet. But maybe you’re getting closer? Let’s see.
> 
> A need becomes neediness when the need isn’t satisfied. Got it? Don’t worry if you haven’t.
> 
> ...


If my self worth is high I will get my needs met BEFORE it gets to deprivation, deficiency, scarcity, denial, withdrawal, dispossession and yes death.

I need sex - yes I'm the HD spouse. I'm not going to sit around and wait a "long time" for him to come around until I become needy.

If I'm a homemaker and if my husband lost his job I'm not going to sit idly by and wait for me to become needy. I'm going to go get a job. I'm self reliant not needy. 

I was needy I'm not anymore. I am educated, I have skills, I can make my own money, I can get my own water, I can drive, there is a grocery store on every corner, there are plenty of men that would love to have sex with me, and air is plentiful.

I used to be a bottomless pit of neediness because I EXPECTED others to meet my needs instead of being proactive. I don't do that anymore. I have high self esteem and if my needs aren't met I will find out how to meet them on my own even that means I have to find another human body besides the one I married.

I am not needy but I do have needs.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

AFEH said:


> English obviously isn't your first language.


Why do you feel the need to insult me? We can agree to disagree without personal comments that do not add to the discussion here.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Next time round instead of being with someone who’s opposite to you, love languages, introverted/extroverted etc. etc. you’ll more than likely be with someone who’s very similar to you.

At least that’s how I feel it will be with me. Someone who enjoys doing what I enjoy doing, someone with the same plans and goals are quite heavenly types of thoughts for me.

And then I think “I’ll be living with someone like me!”. And somehow perish the thought lol.

But at least I’d understand them!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lovesherman said:


> What? Hailen was trying to meet his wife's needs. He was not trying to hurt her. It was impossible to meet her needs until she became secure within herself.


That's exactly what I said.

And I went further and said in no way did Halien set out to hurt his wife by withholding what she needs!

How on earth you got exactly the opposite out of what I actually said is way beyond me.

Unless of course English is not your first language!!!


So much and in such an opposite way did you misinterpret what I said that initially I thought it must be a deliberate misinterpretation.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> If my self worth is high I will get my needs met BEFORE it gets to deprivation, deficiency, scarcity, denial, withdrawal, dispossession and yes death.
> 
> I need sex - yes I'm the HD spouse. I'm not going to sit around and wait a "long time" for him to come around until I become needy.
> 
> ...


*Yuk!!!!!*

I can’t believe that people even think that way let alone declare it in a marriage forum. That’s the stuff nightmares are made of. Do your husband the biggest favour of his life and tell him exactly what you think about him.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I have quite often prescribed a healthy dose of 'selfishness', and I'm making the leap that people will understand that I'm not advocating entitlement, greed, or arrogance.
> 
> It's far easier for some people to seek out external acknowledgment, approval or gratification from others, and use that as their fuel, and guage, for how they interpret the self.
> 
> ...


Deej,

It's quite possible she's so deathly afraid of intimacy, she's unable to acknowledge her needs to herself.

This would explain her "erotic lover" personae in the arms of OM, while she was a cold fish to you.

I'm sure he's getting a healthy dose of "the dead salmon act" now.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I have not read all of these replies ...I THINK alot like Acorn, his opening post....seems all common sense to me. I have entertainted starting threads on.... "Neediness vs Independence" ....I feel that sometimes the Independent nature of some is even more of the issue ...them stepping up to "give more" .....some of those people might be better off remaining single ....or at the very least ...DO NOT marry another who cares & craves TIME/ affection as a heighened love language, that would be a match made in hell. 

I am sure there is *healthy Neediness *and *Unhealthy neediness*...but I bet depending on HOW one is treated and loved at home.....a healthy neediness can start to slide into a very unhealthy neediness ...a downward spiral leading to a loss of self esteem even....if our spouses refuse to care / heed ....when it was Healthy and expressed to them. 

The "TIME/Affection" spouse will end up feeling like something is wrong with them- for desiring /wanting more closeness... and the Independent busy spouse will brush it off as "needy". Well isn't that special









Whereas had they married someone more compatible to themselves -who enjoyed the togetherness -these would likely be non issues. 

Me & mine both had our "needy" times.... . and we both handled it very differently indeed... when he wanted more from me, he sucked it up and refused to dare show any neediness at all (he craved more sex & affection from me).... why did he do that... cause Men are taught to not show need.. well I say "screw that!"...That did us a f'n dis service. I am still smacking him for that. If my husband needs me... hey, that's a blessing! It's worse the other way around... if he has no time for me or thinks I am a bother. 

Then there is ME....I was real freaking NEEDY 3 yrs ago, I started to feel like ..I simply had to be some damn burden to him, I was up his ass all day, grabbing it and well I just couldn't keep my hands off him.... but you know what, he wouldn't allow me to feel that way.. .GOD BLESS THAT MAN. Had he not reacted like that... well ...I don't know and I don't want to go there in my mind. The fact is... he stepped up, he became what I craved ...he did that FOR me, he did that FOR US....he did that for our marraige. 

I don't feel I am a blood sucking leech by any means, but had I been married to another, I bet he might !! It is very very utterly important to be compatible in marraige in these things.. and to love with all the love you have...during anothers difficult and yes.. .NEEDY times. 

And me, I have no illusions about myself, I know the way I am, I've always known what I want... even as a teen...I had many expectations...oh yeah...we talked about all of them... we would write letters back & forth, Hell, I interviewed my husband ! I knew what I was marrying, he knew what he was marrying.... . before we walked down that aisle. And ya know...I can't say that I have had any surprises with my husband, even any let downs -with this man in 30 yrs. He lived up to it all. 

I let him down-- cause he refused to show me some of that neediness. What a shame.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn,
I think more has been revealed to me in my separation from my wife than was revealed when we were together. As you know in Awareness de Mello teaches us the difference between Me and I. We can think on these as being two separate and distinct consciousnesses. “Me” being our ego consciousness and “I” our observer consciousness.

What I think happens in separation is that we now focus our energy on our observer consciousness when we look back on “what happened”. In that we are no longer tied up within in our ego consciousness like we were when together.

In a way this is like playing a film of our life where we’re sat there as an observer, just watching. Sure if we want to we can let the emotions in if we trigger on something, but we can as likely subdue them relatively easily as well simply because we want to understand what happened and why.

For myself I have just about got to a level of understanding where I can begin to forgive my wife the pain she brought my way. That’s a strong need for me because often the pain eclipses the joy my wife brought to me and I never want to lose sight of that joy. Rather I want to celebrate it.

And now I’ve reached this far, now I understand this much about my wife I am slowly but surely turning inwards and taking a good look at myself. This I believe is where the major part of my growth is going to come from at this stage in my life. I am trying to be as honest as I can with myself and that’s quite tough yet essential, for me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Mavash. said:


> Does your wife know you feel this way? Have you communicated it to her?


This is always a valid question, but I do snicker when I see it.

My case? Yes. Clearly. Repeatedly. Over the course of years. But the message gets diluted and reinterpreted.

If your spouse doesn't recognize your needs ... and importantly doesn't feel compelled to meet them, I'm not even talking out of malice, but they are simply far more focused on what THEY think is important to THEM. Therefore your needs are a distraction ... and if you continue pointing them out ... they become annoying.


But the irony is, that THEY created the 'expectation' for their behavior surrounding the thing that consumes their attention.
Whether it be a workaholic husband or a helicopter mom.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's usually because those expectations they created for themselves are much safer than intimacy.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Deejo said:


> This is always a valid question, but I do snicker when I see it.


I didn't mean it the way you took. I meant I see my husband having times when he needs more attention than others like when he's had a bad day at work for example. That guy could just need some extra TLC so I was just asking that's all.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Deejo said:


> But the irony is, that THEY created the 'expectation' for their behavior surrounding the thing that consumes their attention.
> 
> Whether it be a workaholic husband or a *helicopter mom*.


Never heard that expression before : Urban Dictionary: helicopter mom



> 1. A hovering & controlling, but well-meaning, parent who gets way too involved in her child's life to the point of doing things that are completely inappropriate, such as personally attending all of little Sweetiepie's extracurricular activities, writing medium-sized Sweetiepie's school application essays, and submitting full-grown Sweetiepie's job applications.
> 
> 2. The mom who hovers over her child, especially at school. This mom is too involved. She annoys the other parents as well as the teacher(s).


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Mavash. said:


> I didn't mean it the way you took. I meant I see my husband having times when he needs more attention than others like when he's had a bad day at work for example. That guy could just need some extra TLC so I was just asking that's all.


Oh no, don't misunderstand. I know you meant it in a well-intentioned fashion. But by virtue of the way you framed it, means that you are already paying attention to, and are aware of your husband in the first place


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Next time round instead of being with someone who’s opposite to you, love languages, introverted/extroverted etc. etc. you’ll more than likely be with someone who’s very similar to you.
> 
> And then I think “I’ll be living with someone like me!”. And somehow perish the thought lol.
> 
> But at least I’d understand them!


:rofl:

I kind of feel the same way. Maybe it's not too late for me to go back!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Acorn said:


> :rofl:
> 
> I kind of feel the same way. Maybe it's not too late for me to go back!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Bob,
> 
> It's a shame your wife didn't ever get her Eureka moment and found the will to change, but continues to hold on to so much buried anger.
> 
> ...


Others wont know that we’ve had some chat via PM alphaomega about this passive aggressive stuff. Based on your level of deep understanding about it and the affect it has on others, I am seriously impressed and truly admire the massive progress you have made and your willingness to talk openly and honestly about it.


I believe that it’s a person like you who could actually get through to my wife whereas I never could no matter what or for how long I tried and I tried many things, many different ways to get through to her. I actually thought the carnage her brother created would have been a massive wake up call, not only for my wife but for her family as well. But no.

I did though hear her other brother constantly repeat that he’ll never ever forgive his brother for what he did to his family and yet I never heard one word of sympathy or remorse for the lives of the others that his brother so comprehensively damaged.

I thought another wake up call would have happened when her family received a letter forgiving my wife’s brother for the damage he did, even from families who’d lost a love one! And yet still they didn’t get this forgiveness thing.


I’m truly glad your new you is working for you. You’re living proof that people can and do change and at times they fundamentally change!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

deejov said:


> I'm sorry to read this AFEH, that is truly very sad, and speaks loudly about the consequences of childhood and parenting.
> 
> People are not perfect, including me. I've been ashamed of the hurtful things I have said recently, mainly because it speaks against treat others the way I want to be treated, and don't fall into the trap of using HURT (withholding needs) to get what you want.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your words of compassion deejov.

There is some danger that I could let my anger and dislike for my wife change me into something like my wife. In essence a bitter and resentful, unforgiving person intent on revenge.

But I’ve got this inner garden thing and in there I like peace, harmony and tranquillity and I’m doing every thing I can to ensure it returns. I’m mostly there. In fact I think I’m there now some 95% of the time but I do have my moments. Just some 12 months ago all I had was about 5% peace.

I get that peace, harmony and tranquillity by forgiving other people their “sins” against me. That’s how I do it. But, just like Conrad I too have to know what it is I’m forgiving. And I’ve just about reached the level of understanding I need.

But still I am not ready as yet to move into my process of forgiveness. I think I actually fear that if I do forgive her it will again make me vulnerable to my wife’s abuse.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Oh no, don't misunderstand. I know you meant it in a well-intentioned fashion. But by virtue of the way you framed it, means that you are already paying attention to, and are aware of your husband in the first place


I thought that was against the rules.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Oh no, don't misunderstand. I know you meant it in a well-intentioned fashion. But by virtue of the way you framed it, means that you are already paying attention to, and are aware of your husband in the first place


And I owe it all to men like you for teaching me how to do it. 

I was doing no such thing when I first came here a year ago. 

Not even close.


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