# Confused Wife - Need Perspective



## tigerlily99

I've posted a few times here on TAM and you guys always make me think in good ways and have new perspectives for me to consider.
I've been having such an up and down relationship with my H lately.

Brief Background: we've been married for over 20 years. (We met when I was 15-1/2 married at 18.)
We have 3 kiddos, two out of the nest, 1 teen kiddo still at home.
We are 4 years into reconciliation. I had an unconfessed EA and have had no contact since that first week. 
My H says that he has forgiven me and I do believe that he truly has.
We have been through counseling, marriage classes (for 16 weeks), I have had individual counseling, and we have a strong close knit community of friends and family around us that have really supported and helped us these last 4 years. But I hate STILL having problems and bringing them to my friends and family all the time. It's been 4 long years and I'm sure they're sick of it already. 

About 50% of the time things are doing really good in our marriage. We've grown a LOT and have healed a lot. I have taken full responsibility for my waywardness and the fact that I made choices to turn away from my H instead of toward. In looking back I see that it was my responsibility to let him know I was hurting and ask for what I needed even though I knew that it would cause fights or put pressure on him.
I wish I would've done that, because now, I still have to put that pressure on him anyway and he is even more sensitive (understandably so) than he ever was before.
By pressure, I mean this, my H doesn't like to talk about things that are emotional or vulnerable. He quite literally shuts down when things get too deep.
I, on the other hand need that vulnerability in order to feel connected.

I am actually a very understanding person. I get this about him and so for the first 20 years didn't push him. I gave up that need for intimate connection assuming that you just don't get that with men. Men don't like to talk, therefore be happy with your women friendships and deal with it!
And I did!
When I felt lonely or shut out I didn't try to get him to meet my needs I just was compliant and understanding. I would journal or read or talk to my girlfriends. 

Then, quite by accident, I found out that men actually ARE capable of enjoying conversation! I was unknowingly being very sexist in thinking that just because of my experience ALL men are incapable of deep emotional connections.
H and I developed a mutual friendship with a new couple and I got along better with the husband than the wife. We began chatting about this and that (never anything sexual or confessions of mutual interest, just chatting about life.)
I didn't realize that it could even be considered an "affair" until I found myself missing talking to OM when I was on vacation with my H and kids.
I had been naively under the impression that connection through talking was so unimportant and trivial that my need for it was relegated to women only and didn't or couldn't mean anything romantic or sexual.

One of the reasons I believed this so strongly was because my H knew about and condoned the friendship. It wasn't until that above mentioned vacation that I saw how deeply I had become entrenched in a strong connection with the wrong guy! 

So the last 4 years we have spent a lot of time investing in undoing wrong thinking and learning new ways to connect and to communicate.
Like I said 50% of the time all is rosy. 
But the other part of the time my H still shuts down. Still pushes me out. 
I have become a much stronger advocate for asking for what I need and I am much more outspoken in many ways now.

He calls it 'the new me' and sometimes he loves it; im much more passionate, playful and fun. And sometimes he dislikes it; I stand up for myself, I'm don't quietly 'take' things, I have a lot more opinions and they dont always match his.

I realize, geez, this isn't very fair.
I had an EA, I get the catalyst to change and here he is stuck with the 'bill'. 
But in truth, I told him that I would completely understand if he wanted to walk. But that I was/am willing to give it my all and commit the rest of my life to him. I was clear that things were changing with me and he has always chosen to stay, chosen to keep committing, and chosen to be my husband because he loves me!

So here is my conundrum: he still does the shutting down, withdrawing, pushing me out.
Im starting to see that it's sort of a routine. It seems lately that about 3 or 4 times a month something happens to make him feel insecure, fearful or otherwise upset. He reacts in anger and blame and accusation. 
I feel it's coming out of the blue because I feel fine and I wasn't having a problem. So my first reaction to him is "What?!?!"
When I try to explain to him where he misunderstood or received a message that I didn't intend to send, he feels attacked instead of soothed by hearing my true feelings and tells me to watch my tone or to stop putting this on him.
He usually cannot receive anything from me at this juncture. No comfort in the form of touch (his top love language), no apologies, and no explanation of what I truly meant when he jumped to a different conclusion.

It takes over 24hrs for him to calm down and come back. More often it takes 2/3 days because things get convoluted when I try to talk about it and work it out and then I end up getting hurt and angry too. He senses my frustration and needs to stay away.

I'm genuinely confused and feel like anymore I'm just waiting for this strange cycle to pop up. It's effecting my ability to enjoy the good times as I am always wondering what's going to set off this weird cycle again.

What I'm hoping for is that I can use this forum as a place to work through some of our fights and get advice if and when anyone wants to throw out an idea or two.


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## Affaircare

@tigerlily99, 

I am curious. When something happens to make him feel insecure, fearful or otherwise upset (Step 1), and he "reacts in anger and blame and accusation" (Step 2) -- I'm assuming this leads to when he "shuts down, withdraws and pushes you out." Is that correct?

You say that it comes out of the blue because you are feeling fine, and then you try to explain where he misunderstood (Step A). Then he responds with feeling attacked (Step 3) and tells you to watch your tone, etc. (Step 4). 

You respond with trying to comfort him in some way such as touch, apology, or explanation (Step B). 

He then takes 24 hours to calm down (Step 5) by shutting down, withdrawing and pushing you out. Am I right so far?

You respond to his shutting down and pushing you out by ALSO getting hurt and angry (Step C). 

He senses your hurt and anger and stays away (Step 6). 

Can you see how this is a recurring dance? He takes a step backward--and you respond by stepping FORWARD. He takes another step to the side--and you respond with a step of your own. A dance takes TWO parties in order for it tow be dancing. And it's the same with this cycle. 

Up to this point, he has used the "shut down push out" two step because IT WORKS FOR HIM. He gets what he wants (which is probably something like getting you to back off, or be responsible for his choices, etc.) but the point is that you SEE the cycle and want to know how to get out of it. 

Well...why don't you try a different step when it's your turn? Or just refuse to dance (that's what I do). 

Let's brainstorm: 

(Step 1) Something happens to make him feel insecure, fearful or otherwise upset, 
(Step 2) He "reacts in anger and blame and accusation" 

These are HIS choices. It's how he feels and how he chooses to react. He could make other choices. He could choose to ignore the feelings. He could choose to talk back to the feelings. He could choose to talk to you about the feelings. But instead he makes a choice to react by blaming you. You can not stop him, because he's an adult and can choose whatever he wants, but YOUR react absolutely IS up to you.

*(Step A) It comes out of the blue because you are feeling fine, and then you try to explain where he misunderstood*

Here's your step. You keep doing this over and over, and it's not working for you. He doesn't feel better hearing the explanation and it doesn't stop the fight. So instead of explaining, what if you made a different choice? Let's see...what if you said, "So what I hear is that you feel insecure about _____ and you blame me for how you feel. Is that what you're saying?" In other words, just repeat back to him what he said. Don't agree with it--just repeat it. 

What if you said, "What? Whoa I'm surprised by what you just said." See again, you are not agreeing with him, just sharing with him where YOUR head is at, namely that you're taken by surprise. 

What if you said, "Wait I recognize this. You are afraid of ___ and trying to start a fight so you can push me away for 24 hours or more. I think I choose to not engage in this so I'm moving to the living room and I'll choose to talk when you aren't blamingshifting. See you then!" and then walked away.

What if you said, "Oh I don't want to do this same pattern. [sarcasm] You are SOOOOO right. I'm to blame for all your feelings. I have the power of a god with the ability to get in your head and make you have certain emotions (giggle) [/sarcasm]. Seriously, I do not choose to engage in this cycle and would much rather remain loving toward one another. Do you need something from me? How about if you respectfully request it? Hey you never know, I may be willing to do it!"

What if you said anything different than explaining? Even something that probably won't work, like "Stop blame-shifting and take personal responsibility for your own feelings! I'm out!" LOL Hey it would be "not the same" right?

(Step 3) He responds with feeling attacked 
(Step 4) He tells you to watch your tone, etc.

Again, these are HIS choices. It's how he feels and how he chooses to react. He could make other choices. He could choose to ignore you. He could choose to change his own mood. He could choose to say he feels insecure and ask if you'd be willing to reassure him! But instead he makes a choice to react like this. You can not stop him, because he's an adult and responsible for the benefits and the costs of his own choices. But YOU can control YOU!! Lets' look at your next step...

*(Step B) You respond with trying to comfort him in some way such as touch, apology, or explanation. *

He's trying to escalate so he has a reason to escape. He's trying to shift blame from himself to you. And your move is to be comforting and soothing to the man who is being emotionally harsh to you. If he chooses to be angry, that's on him! So rather than trying to comfort, touch, apologize or explain, what could you do differently?

What if you said, "Well that's your opinion. Mine differs GREATLY"? The end. Then say nothing. 

What if you said, "Watch my tone. Okay. I've heard that before and I don't choose to do this again, so I'm going to the bedroom to read"?

What if you said, "You're right. An angry, blaming tone is very hurtful to the one who hears it" and then stop talking and just walk away?

You don't HAVE TO engage or explain yourself! Let him think what he thinks! He's a big boy! Your head was peaceful and happy and loving. HIS head was upset...so don't join in the storm.

(Step 5) He then takes 24 hours to calm down by shutting down, withdrawing and pushing you out.

Again, these are HIS choices. It's how he feels and how he chooses to react. He could make other choices. And if you do not do the dance with him, he will not have built up the justification to withdraw and push you out! Now, he may do it anyway because he needs the emotional space, but the advantage is that YOU did not participate in the dance! He stormed and whirled and tried to draw you into the tornado, and you sat peacefully and said, "Nope I choose to be happy and okay." 

*(Step C) You respond to his shutting down and pushing you out by ALSO getting hurt and angry.* 

Here's your step. You keep doing this over and over, and it's not working for you. Sooo.... do something different. Even if he keeps doing his steps, trying to draw you into his cycle, just refuse to do it. If he shuts down and withdraws, just say "Okay well that's your choice. I'm okay with it and I'm going to choose to carry on with life without you and be happy anyway. Bye!" ... and then just carry on. Go do something you've always wanted to do. Get a hairdo. Go out to dinner. Get a movie and giggle with the kids. LET HIM POUT ALL HE WANTS because eventually he'll see that you aren't dancing with him anymore. 

(Step 6) He senses your hurt and anger and stays away.

See I think this is what he wants. Now I'm not saying he doesn't love you or anything like that. I just think he wants some emotional space and wants to stay away from you and feeling all "intimate and transparent" with you. My guess is that being intimate with someone makes him feel vulnerable, and that's scary to him...but he's a man and men aren't supposed to be scared. So he avoids it by starting a fight and then justifying why he's not all "close" to you. Make sense? 

Anyway...think of your own ideas. What could you choose to do that is NOT fighting, that is DIFFERENT than what you've been doing? One thing I do is make a list of all the possibilities...good and bad! Hey it's just an idea and it will help you realize all the times you don't take the "bad" ideas. But right them all out and then say "Ah yes, this is the one I want to try next. This sounds like me and feels right in my core." Then give it a try. The first time it may not go well, but that's okay...learn from it! So that the second time you'll try "this" or "that" variation instead and see if that works. 

Nothing can change HIM. He has to want to change him. But you CAN change you!


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## tigerlily99

@Affaircare
Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to share.
I really appreciate it and I see exactly what you mean.
I'm going to write some things down and try them and see what happens.

Thank you so much.


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## tigerlily99

So I have tried two new 'steps' in our dance of communication.

One was when he was trying to tell me that he felt I was not respecting him at a family gathering. (Afterward at home) He was drawing a comparison between me and my sister and saying I needed to be more like her. Because she was very respectful of her husband in public and you never see them acting the way I do. The way he was going about telling me that he was hurt was just really hurtful to me. But I put on my big girl panties and recognized that he was trying to say he was hurt.
My new 'step' was this,

I said "I hear that you felt I was not respecting you. And even though that's not the message I was meaning to send, I can understand that you're upset if you thought it was.
Can you forgive me for unintentionally sending that message?"

He said "yeah..." and then kept on talking.
Even though it took a lot of humility to say it that way and I felt his response was very unsatisfactory I just kept my mouth shut. Remembering what you had said @Affaircare that it doesn't always work the first time .
I did notice though that he didn't take as long to get over this particular issue as he often does.

A couple of days later It came up that I was struggling with anger over the way he has been so up and down the past few weeks.
I mentioned an event two weekends ago and also the last one (about respect).
He asked me what he had done wrong the last time (the above mentioned scenario) I said there were two things, one was my responsibility because I was assuming that it was going to be a big deal and he actually did really good because he didn't spiral that day. The 2nd thing though was that he had compared me to my sister and that felt demeaning.
He got upset and started getting defensive and telling me that he can't even share how he feels without me getting bent out of shape. 
I reminded him that he had asked me what he did 'wrong' and that if he couldn't handle the idea of being wrong he shouldn't ask.
He began to say how I had set it up for him to ask that question and that I had brought up things that made it happen that way.

I very calmly and without anger said, "Wow, I didn't know I had that much power over you."

He didn't take that very well and I ended up leaving the house and going for a drive.


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## Affaircare

@tigerlily99

Okay good job! You did an EXCELLENT job on the event where he was telling you he felt disrespected and like your sister acted like she respected her husband in public. I get it--this was your first time trying a "new dance step" and in that instance it sounds like you thought ahead about some possible new steps and picked one that felt okay to you. I love the step you chose, too, because you are not AGREEING with him...you are just saying back to him what you think he's saying. I almost always start those with "So it sounds like you're saying you felt____ or you thought ____. Is that what you meant? Am I getting the message you want to communicate?" When you pick that dance step, what you're saying is that you are trying to hear him, and that you care enough to LISTEN to what he says and make sure you understood what he was trying to get across. In the end that's what we all want, right? To be HEARD?

In the second instance it was a little less successful, I think because you were dealing with your own anger about him being up and down, and it was your issue. I mean, he can't make you think or feel anything any more than you can make him think or feel anything! But being true to yourself, you were feeling angry, and yet when you two were talking about it, you mentioned two events focusing on him as if he were the one responsible for "making you mad." I would recommend just sharing, "I am feeling angry right now, because ____ is not okay with me, so I would like to make a request. Would you be willing to _____?" Here's why. If you say the two events up and downness is what's making you mad, then that means if he didn't so XYZ you wouldn't be mad and that makes him responsible for you. Now I know this is a novel way of thinking about it, but if my Dear Hubby said he wished I would treat him like my sister treats her husband, I would ask him "What specifically does she do that you like? Can you help me see what she does that seems respectful to you?" because I want the world to see that I do respect him! Not just "in public" either but in private in my heart!

So for the second situation, keep the focus on sharing where you are at. Again I use a format W-T-F-S, which stands for: 

When you (insert situation that brings up the issue for you--be neutral, just describe it)
I Think (share your thoughts)
I Feel (share how you feel)
So... I'd like to request (ask for what would make it better for you)

The idea is that our spouses can't read our minds. Ask out loud if they'd be willing to do ____ thing that would make it alright with you. 


So line by line, let's go over the second one:



> He asked me what he had done wrong the last time (the above mentioned scenario) I said there were two things, one was my responsibility because I was assuming that it was going to be a big deal and he actually did really good because he didn't spiral that day. The 2nd thing though was that he had compared me to my sister and that felt demeaning.


So say out loud that of the two times, you actually LIKED the way he handled the one because he didn't spiral. Say that out loud--it encourages him. Say out loud that it's your issue and he needs to do NOTHING because you're working on you. And for the second part, the truth is he may or may not have compared you to your sister--apparently there's some stuff she does for her husband that he likes. That's not comparing--that's how you took it! So maybe a better way to say that part would be "...when you said you wanted me to respect you like my sister respects her husband, I felt like you were comparing us and I was coming up short. I thought that was demeaning and I felt 'less than' and I cover that up by being angry. So I'd like to request that you let me know out loud that I'm the one you prefer and I'm not 'less than' her in your eyes." 



> He got upset and started getting defensive and telling me that he can't even share how he feels without me getting bent out of shape.


Good time to use a new dance step! How about that one you used so well above? "It sounds like you feel like you need to defend yourself and like you feel like you're not safe sharing your feelings with me. Is that how you feel?" 



> I reminded him that he had asked me what he did 'wrong' and that if he couldn't handle the idea of being wrong he shouldn't ask.


Ah but NOTE TO SELF: you just told your husband that he shouldn't talk to you, and that if he did, he was in danger of being attacked by you. Do you like being emotionally attacked? Nope! And he doesn't either. Is that the message you want to communicate to your husband? If it's not, what message DO you want to communicate to him about being able to talk to you? What actions can you do (not say...DO) that convey that message?



> He began to say how I had set it up for him to ask that question and that I had brought up things that made it happen that way.
> 
> I very calmly and without anger said, "Wow, I didn't know I had that much power over you."


Ah this is actually a good one! He probably didn't like it that well because he knows you don't have that much power over him and you said it out loud! But as you begin to change the way you dance, he is going to periodically try to get you back into the old dance steps. He will also very likely get upset that you are doing new stuff and he's not! It's not a healthy way, but in some way or another, the old dance was working for him. I suspect it was working because he could blame shift his bad behavior on you. As you begin to interact with him in a more healthy way, it will be harder for him to continue to be dysfunctional so it will be more and more blatant that the way he acts is on him and not on you. 

Remember I mentioned that he can be a tornado but that doesn't mean you have to start swirling too? Just because he storms and flings lightening, you can choose to just not storm back! Make a deliberate choice to say "I'm not engaging in this. I choose not to do this again the same old way." He may try tricks to get you back for a while, but he may also surprise you because when he feels heard and not attacked, he may be shocked enough to respond in kind! We'll see!


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## tigerlily99

Once again I appreciate you taking the time @Affaircare to respond so thoroughly.

There are some hard things in all of this. And to just cut straight to the heart of it, I get really upset that I have to always be the more communicative and understanding person in all of this.
I get frustrated and impatient. I feel like I'm bending over backwards to keep the peace and talk 'just so' and not hurt his pride or make him feel attacked, but what about me?
Sometimes I get mad and hurt. Why can't he take it?

((Right now I'm just venting. I'm sure I'll feel better and more willing later.))

But this is the crux that I usually fall on. I feel I am giving and giving and then I do one little thing and he can't take it.

For example, he can say "I didn't like the way you were acting tonight. I want you to act more like your sister."
And I'm supposed to just read only good from that.
But I say, "that felt demeaning when you said xyz."
And he can make it about him and I suddenly am supposed to be understanding of him and cater to his feelings when I wanted a turn to be heard!


I donno. I'm not saying I'm not willing to be the more patient and insightful and communicative one. But I feel frustrated by it sometimes. And a little lonely. Or alone.


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## tigerlily99

Ok, so after hitting send on the above 'vent' I read over your response again and I do want to respond and ask a few questions.
It is indeed a novel way of thinking about it, to overlook any hurt his words may be causing me and just assume he's saying something totally acceptable. 
Haha!
So when he compared me to my sister I just kept thinking, I would never, never, ever, compare him to another man. He would be so hurt!
He kept coming back to it. He kept using it as an example of how he wanted me to act.

I know that it would be cool to just be like, "yes dear, what exactly did she do that you want me to do."
But something in me is like, no way buddy. How dare you compare me to another woman. Whether she's my sister or not!

That's what I was trying to say later after choosing to not express any of my personal feelings that first night but letting him know I heard him and apologizing for not sending him the message of respect. 

It felt like my turn to bring up my feelings. I did say out loud that he had handled the situation so much better than before.

The part that hurt me was when he compared me to my sister.
Why doesn't he just say, sorry,
That's all I need.

Is that the S part of WTFS?

Do I need to say I just would like an apology? Or do I say I'd love to hear you on the subject of changing things but please don't use my sister as an example of what you want.

When he was saying it I felt angry and hurt and I held my tongue. But I wanted to say, if you acted more like my sister's husband maybe I would act more like her.

Of course I did NOT say that. And I won't say that. But there is a truth to it and that is that they have a completely different relationship. Once where she can talk about things with him and be open and vulnerable and he doesn't go emotionally AWOL on her or tell her to go fix herself or that she's too emotional. These are things that my H says and does very consistently.


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## farsidejunky

TL99:

Part of your resentment towards him is the fact that you are carrying the relationship. Your husband does not have the EQ to do so. There is much more to this than a lack of intimate conversation.

I would also suspect that you were looking for what is lacking in your husband from your AP. None of this justifies your EA, but at a very base level you have what I see as a very large area of incompatibility: you want a leader...yet based on his behavior, so does he.

What @Affaircare is teaching you is leadership in a relationship. Yet, you sound like you resent having to do so.

All of that to say this: you are going to have to accept that incompatibility for this to work. It will likely leave you unfulfilled at least periodically. I speak from experience in this area. 

Can you live happily that way? Is that enough? Or will you need more?

I am not advocating for you to divorce. However, I see you as being so busy healing your relationship that I wonder if you have stopped long enough to reflect on whether you actually _should_. 

Take care.


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## Affaircare

@tigerlily99
@farsidejunky hit some very excellent points, and I'll tell you what I see from the wee bit we've observed so far. You would LOVE to have an equal relationship with your husband--namely what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Up to now, you've carried the relationship and part of the reason he chose you is because you are the type to do that. It worka for him! He doesn't have to grow up or mature or change himself because you do it for him. Now you are growing tired of carrying the relationship and having to continue to carry it is building resentment in you. I'm not suggesting that you drop the load on him and let him carry it for a while--I don't think he has the tools to do so, and I think it would just build resentment in him and that would kill the marriage. Instead, I'm suggesting two things: 1) where possible, stop carrying what isn't yours, and in a caring way (in other words, not contentious but kind) point out or indicate that is not yours to carry; and 2) where possible give him the tools to pick up his own load, and you give him those tools by showing them to him. In other words, leading by example.

I have a bit of hope for you and your husband because when I suggested you may need to change some dance steps on your side, you didn't balk. You took up the mantle and gave the new thing a try. And it was pretty successful! Likewise without even telling him you were trying something different, your husband's response to your new dance step was fairly positive too. Again, not perfect but enough to indicate that you both are willing to do things in a different way in order to have a different outcome. 

Finally you asked a SUPER IMPORTANT QUESTION: 



> The part that hurt me was when he compared me to my sister.
> Why doesn't he just say, sorry,
> That's all I need.
> 
> Is that the S part of WTFS?


YES!! 

But before we go on, I want you to put yourself in his shoes a moment. Let's envision you and I talking, and you say something I find offensive. Now we are not intimates or anything so you may or may not know that what you said wounded me, and in real life words are just puffs of air going across vibrating vocal cords. They have no power OTHER THAN THE POWER THE INTERPRETER GIVES THEM. So I could hear something HIGHLY offensive from you and still choose to ignore it, choose to consider the source, and/or choose to look for a kernel of truth and take it positively! The choice to be offended is mine! Still...you've offended me, and I'm hurt. I come to you and I say "When you said __ to me, I thought you must think of me very negatively, I felt really hurt and belittled, and so if you would like to make things right with me, would you be willing to apologize?" 

Now you tell me: hearing it put like that would you say you'd be likely to apologize? Maybe. I mean if nothing else you know that I felt hurt and belittled and like you saw me in a very negative light. But you may have meant it! You may not feel like what you said was inaccurate or incorrect so why apologize? In real life, what you said may have been true! Thus, asking people to apologize holds a connotation of "will you admit you were wrong?" At this point in your marriage as it is, I doubt if either one of you wants to admit that you are wrong--in reality I think both of you contribute but do so out of habit. So it's not a matter necessarily of "right" or "wrong" morally, so much as it is a matter of you-against-me instead of us-against-the-world.

THEREFORE, yes, the part where he compared you to your sister and that comparison hurt you is the part where you'd ask for what you need to resolve the issue. But I don't honestly think the resolution is an apology. Digging a bit deeper, he preferred the way she was acting over the way you were acting, so you feel like he compared the two of you and found you lacking! The feeling "less than" is the part that got you. Thus, asking for an apology would be asking him to say words he doesn't believe just to pacify you--but asking him for reassurance that he prefers you over her--well that's hitting the nail on the head! 

So I recommend going over the whole WTFS...not just the S part. By doing the whole thing it actually makes you think about things, like "Exactly what was it that made me feel hurt?" It makes you narrow down and identify exactly what it made you think...what were your thoughts? It helps you identify exactly how you felt...especially if you look up Feeling Words and try to choose one other than "hurt" or "angry"--pick one that's a specific adjective! Then once you've really dug and gotten to precisely the incident that caused the issue, pinpointed your thoughts and shared them, discerned your feelings and shared them...then you think about what would resolve the issue? What would actually "make things right"?

It sounds to me like you have a LOT of anger. I suspect he feels anger focused on him rather than patience, kindness, gentleness, protection, trust, or hope... and I'm not saying he does or doesn't "deserve" the anger. That's not the topic here today. What IS the topic is to address what's really inside you, not so that you're pretending you're okay and biting your tongue, but so that your actions change and his actions change and some of the anger can siphon off. As long as he hurts you and you hurt him back and he hurts you back...that cycle will continue until you've killed the marriage. So the idea is to stop the cycle. Call a truce. When he hurts you, yes, it's true you'll be the "bigger man" and say "I'm not going to hurt you back, but I'm also not just going to take your hurt without at least speaking out loud that what you did is not acceptable to me." 

See what I mean a little?


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## tigerlily99

I'm thinking a lot today. Thank you @farsidejunky and @Affaircare . I will be back when I have some time. 
You've both given me a lot to consider and look at within myself.


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## WorkingWife

tigerlily99 said:


> He kept using it as an example of how he wanted me to act.
> 
> I know that it would be cool to just be like, "yes dear, what exactly did she do that you want me to do."
> But something in me is like, no way buddy. How dare you compare me to another woman. Whether she's my sister or not!
> 
> ...
> 
> The part that hurt me was when he compared me to my sister.
> Why doesn't he just say, sorry,
> That's all I need.


This is a very interesting thread to me.

I reallly feel for you based on what you have described, but in my comment here I want to point out something you may be doing that is self defeating.

You said early on that your husband is insecure and gets hurt because he misinterprets something you say. In this exchange though, it sounds like you are feeling insecure and choosing to interpret your husband's words in a bad way.

I didn't hear how he said it, and if he said something like "I wish I was married to your sister instead of you" then that would definitely be a "comparison". But what if he loves you tons and would never want your sister, but he saw something she said/did in regards to her husband that he thought would make him feel so great if you said/did that to him. 

You two are working on your marriage and you have asked him to be open and communicate with you. What he's actually doing, in his inartful way, is giving you valuable information. If you can hear it with an inquisitive mind that wants to know what he likes and wants, and what appeals to him -- and don't take it personally, like, "Apparently I am less desirable than my sister." you could analyze the information and decide "Is this something I can do for him and still be me?" If so, he's handing you his play book! Incorporate it into your next public outing. If it's just not you, you could say something like "I can see why that appealed to you but I'm just a very different person than my sister and I want you to feel loved and respected by me, but I would be very uncomfortable doing that." And maybe ask him if there are other things that are more "you" that he would like.

You got him to tell you how he feels - make sure you don't punish him for it, even if it does hurt your feelings. (Or maybe tell him "An approach that would work better on me would be for you to say 'I'd love it if you did xyz' rather than 'why can't you be more like your sister.'"




tigerlily99 said:


> When he was saying it I felt angry and hurt and I held my tongue. But I wanted to say, if you acted more like my sister's husband maybe I would act more like her.
> 
> Of course I did NOT say that. And I won't say that. But there is a truth to it and that is that they have a completely different relationship. Once where she can talk about things with him and be open and vulnerable and he doesn't go emotionally AWOL on her or tell her to go fix herself or that she's too emotional. These are things that my H says and does very consistently.


GOOD JOB! 'Cause that would be VERY tempting to say!!! And again, this is valuable information for your H to have. You probably want to save it for another discussion though, and present it like "If you did x I'd feel really good, and I'd probably want to do Y for you." When you said you felt it was your turn to discuss your feelings, I think you want to be careful of "debating" feelings, or telling your feelings as a counter argument to his. If every time he gives you information of something he does not like, or wishes you would do, you respond with "OK, and I wish YOU would do XYZ" he will not feel safe telling you and will shut down further. You need to be able to talk with him about these things, but don't use them as a defense tool when he's communicating something you don't like to hear.


----------



## tigerlily99

@farsidejunky your message was like a laser beam cutting through the debris and hitting right at the very crux of this. I have been mulling it over and here is what I am thinking.



farsidejunky said:


> TL99:
> Part of your resentment towards him is the fact that you are carrying the relationship. Your husband does not have the EQ to do so. There is much more to this than a lack of intimate conversation.


Reading this made me get emotional because it's true and it felt good to have someone understand and see beyond the surface of what I am working toward.




farsidejunky said:


> I would also suspect that you were looking for what is lacking in your husband from your AP. None of this justifies your EA, but at a very base level you have what I see as a very large area of incompatibility: you want a leader...yet based on his behavior, so does he.


Yes, sadly that is what happened. And you're right, nothing justifies going outside of my marriage to find this. I learned that the hard way and so did he actually. (More on that in a minute.)
When you say that you see this as a large area of incompatibility I was really surprised. It illuminated the fact that I don't see it that way because I look at it as something that needs to be addressed, worked on, and ultimately 'fixed'. I have the belief in him that he can learn to communicate with me on a deeper level and pursue me intellectually and emotionally....or at the very least open up to me in this way.

Somehow when you said that, it was like a light bulb in my head and I realized that *my Hubby sees it the way that you see it!!* He does feel that we are incompatible in this area and he is trying his darnedest to meet me in the middle as much as he knows how. That's why he actually thought that I could get this need met by someone else and was totally fine with me connecting with his friend. I also thought that if my H felt it was so innocent than maybe it wasn't a marital need at all but just a personality difference. We were both incredibly naive in this and the more he released me to chat it up with his friend and the closer I felt to OM instead of my H the more I resented my H and his willingness to 'pawn me off' on another guy.
(Granted, one that he trusted and knew personally, but as time went on I realized that this need was not platonic.)



farsidejunky said:


> What @Affaircare is teaching you is leadership in a relationship. Yet, you sound like you resent having to do so.


Ummm, YEP!!



farsidejunky said:


> All of that to say this: you are going to have to accept that incompatibility for this to work. It will likely leave you unfulfilled at least periodically. I speak from experience in this area.
> 
> Can you live happily that way? Is that enough? Or will you need more?
> 
> I am not advocating for you to divorce. However, I see you as being so busy healing your relationship that I wonder if you have stopped long enough to reflect on whether you actually _should_.
> 
> Take care.



You are so right! It's up to me to decide. My H has already made it clear that he loves me very much and he wants to do what he can but what he can do it limited.

He has shown himself willing to learn and to try...but that he does and will always have limitations in this area. Ugh. I can totally hear him saying this many many times and in the past all i heard is that he is saying he isn't enough for me, I am too much for him.
He has said many many times that maybe I should find someone else. 
I always look at that as a cop out and a wimpy thing to say...but I think it supports what you see @farsidejunky he knows this is a large area of incompatibility and he isn't copping out he is giving ME an out. 

This is a very big perspective shift for me. Im still trying to wrap my mind around it. Thanks for the jolt.

(I want to add, that I DO love my H very much and we have fought very very hard to restore our marriage and begin again. This perspective shift isn't that I now need to decide whether I love him enough to stay....it's more about whether or not I am willing to pull back my expectations of him and stop instantly assuming that when he does something that makes me feel emotionally unsafe, or unheard, that he isn't going to go back to the way he was in the past.)


----------



## farsidejunky

Good introspection.

Both of you have expectations from each other that will take you out of your comfort zone.

Now...my snap judgement is that you are giving your husband a bit too much credit. I don't think he has the EQ to "see this and give you an out", but rather I think he is feeling his way through this and knows it does not feel right, so he speaks from frustration and lack of understanding.

Until he wants to improve his EQ, it will continue as it is.


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## tigerlily99

WorkingWife said:


> This is a very interesting thread to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I reallly feel for you based on what you have described, but in my comment here I want to point out something you may be doing that is self defeating....
> 
> 
> 
> ...You two are working on your marriage and you have asked him to be open and communicate with you. What he's actually doing, in his inartful way, is giving you valuable information. If you can hear it with an inquisitive mind that wants to know what he likes and wants, and what appeals to him -- and don't take it personally, like, "Apparently I am less desirable than my sister." you could analyze the information and decide "Is this something I can do for him and still be me?" If so, he's handing you his play book! Incorporate it into your next public outing. If it's just not you, you could say something like "I can see why that appealed to you but I'm just a very different person than my sister and I want you to feel loved and respected by me, but I would be very uncomfortable doing that." And maybe ask him if there are other things that are more "you" that he would like.




I honestly did not look at it this way at all (that he is handing me his playbook). I just saw it as one more thing I needed to carry for him. Ie., "When we are in public I am only doing it for you so I need you to take care of me."
(He is a self-professed introvert who doesn't like crowds and I have a large family who loves to get together)

I HAVE definitely made that decision in other areas. Since he hates crowds and I am much more social than him I do carry him emotionally when it comes to events that feel important to me. I was actually considering just not having him come to family events anymore if it's so very difficult to him. I can have more fun without him there if that's what the end result is. (That I failed him by not seeing through his facade of funny, loud, jokester guy as really being an insecure and in need of me to prop him up.)



WorkingWife said:


> You got him to tell you how he feels - make sure you don't punish him for it, even if it does hurt your feelings. (Or maybe tell him "An approach that would work better on me would be for you to say 'I'd love it if you did xyz' rather than 'why can't you be more like your sister.'


This is a good way to look at it. I never really thought of it that way either that he is telling me how he feels when he is upset. (I guess I do think that this 'should' come easier to him than it does and he 'should' be able to just calmly inform me of things.) I read a little of your posts @WorkingWife and I realize that I have it good in areas that i didn't even consider could be so much more closed. My H has shared many things about his past with me and I know that I am the only person in the world that he has opened his heart to.







WorkingWife said:


> When you said you felt it was your turn to discuss your feelings, I think you want to be careful of "debating" feelings, or telling your feelings as a counter argument to his. If every time he gives you information of something he does not like, or wishes you would do, you respond with "OK, and I wish YOU would do XYZ" he will not feel safe telling you and will shut down further. You need to be able to talk with him about these things, but don't use them as a defense tool when he's communicating something you don't like to hear.



This is good advice and something that I try very hard not to do. My H on the other hand is a PRO at this. Even if I wait for the allotted cool down time and bring up MY feelings on a matter it gets turned around by him to what he felt and why my feelings are hurting his feelings. It's ridiculous and in fact was the very reason I reached out to TAM on this matter.

What I really appreciate about what you shared, is that I have a blind spot here. I see that I AM defensive and prickly when it comes to certain things and I don't need to be. It all comes down to the decision I need to make going forward that I mentions to Farside above: Am I willing to lower my expectations and my learned safeguards and rules in order to think the best of my H's intentions?

And I am good at gathering the rules about how to interact with a person. In fact I am very very aware of others needs and desires and can be almost a mind-reader.(I don't mean that literally) I got completely lost in our M and didn't know anything about myself but could tell you everything about H and his needs/likes/desires. Thankfully my H has kindly admitted to a couple of trusted friends that the biggest problem we have now in our marriage is that I spoiled him for 18 years by doing everything for him and catering to him and when I stopped it has been very hard for him because it used to be so EASY he didn't have to try at all!!!!! (Emotionally speaking...he has always been a very good provider and protector)


----------



## tigerlily99

Affaircare said:


> @farsidejunky hit some very excellent points, and I'll tell you what I see from the wee bit we've observed so far. You would LOVE to have an equal relationship with your husband--namely what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Up to now, you've carried the relationship and part of the reason he chose you is because you are the type to do that. It worka for him! He doesn't have to grow up or mature or change himself because you do it for him. Now you are growing tired of carrying the relationship and having to continue to carry it is building resentment in you. I'm not suggesting that you drop the load on him and let him carry it for a while--I don't think he has the tools to do so, and I think it would just build resentment in him and that would kill the marriage. Instead, I'm suggesting two things: 1) where possible, stop carrying what isn't yours, and in a caring way (in other words, not contentious but kind) point out or indicate that is not yours to carry; and 2) where possible give him the tools to pick up his own load, and you give him those tools by showing them to him. In other words, leading by example.


THank you for this @Affaircare It gives me hope. I am encouraged that I don't have to carry everything. My biggest problem right now in our 'dance' is knowing what is mine and what isn't. I have a wonderful sister (the one mentioned previously) who helps me when I can't figure it out. And you guys are really helping me too.





Affaircare said:


> I have a bit of hope for you and your husband because when I suggested you may need to change some dance steps on your side, you didn't balk. You took up the mantle and gave the new thing a try. And it was pretty successful! Likewise without even telling him you were trying something different, your husband's response to your new dance step was fairly positive too. Again, not perfect but enough to indicate that you both are willing to do things in a different way in order to have a different outcome.


This was also very hopeful to me! Your word picture of it being a dance and that I can change the steps and see what he does to respond, or not was encouraging. And to see him response fairly quickly was good too. If it weren't for your encouragement I woudve just thought nothing happened.









Affaircare said:


> But before we go on, I want you to put yourself in his shoes a moment. Let's envision you and I talking, and you say something I find offensive. Now we are not intimates or anything so you may or may not know that what you said wounded me, and in real life words are just puffs of air going across vibrating vocal cords. They have no power OTHER THAN THE POWER THE INTERPRETER GIVES THEM. So I could hear something HIGHLY offensive from you and still choose to ignore it, choose to consider the source, and/or choose to look for a kernel of truth and take it positively! The choice to be offended is mine! Still...you've offended me, and I'm hurt. I come to you and I say "When you said __ to me, I thought you must think of me very negatively, I felt really hurt and belittled, and so if you would like to make things right with me, would you be willing to apologize?"
> 
> 
> 
> Now you tell me: hearing it put like that would you say you'd be likely to apologize? Maybe. I mean if nothing else you know that I felt hurt and belittled and like you saw me in a very negative light. But you may have meant it! You may not feel like what you said was inaccurate or incorrect so why apologize? In real life, what you said may have been true! Thus, asking people to apologize holds a connotation of "will you admit you were wrong?" At this point in your marriage as it is, I doubt if either one of you wants to admit that you are wrong--in reality I think both of you contribute but do so out of habit. So it's not a matter necessarily of "right" or "wrong" morally, so much as it is a matter of you-against-me instead of us-against-the-world.


This is a tough one, because yes, truly and honestly I would immediately apologize. I would want to know what you heard me say and then I would want to share with you what my true intentions were in that statement.
If indeed I meant what I said, I would want to reword it in a way that isnt leaving you feeling torn down, but built up, because that is my aim and goal in all of my relationships.

When my H is hurt and telling me that he is hurt he doesn't hear my apologies or understanding words. He sort of shuts down emotionally and is unable to receive affection or affirmation.
This is why i have to wait to be heard until he is in a different frame of mind.

When I am telling him that I am hurt I don't want him to apologize because he is wrong, I recognize that he probably didn't mean to hurt me. I just want him to see his effect on me and understand that Im hurt and need comforting. 
Instead we often end up having a court battle about facts and figures and the last time this happened, blah, blah blah. I feel that I have to prove why i have a right to be hurt. Comfort rarely comes.




Affaircare said:


> THEREFORE, yes, the part where he compared you to your sister and that comparison hurt you is the part where you'd ask for what you need to resolve the issue. But I don't honestly think the resolution is an apology. Digging a bit deeper, he preferred the way she was acting over the way you were acting, so you feel like he compared the two of you and found you lacking! The feeling "less than" is the part that got you. Thus, asking for an apology would be asking him to say words he doesn't believe just to pacify you--but asking him for reassurance that he prefers you over her--well that's hitting the nail on the head!


Yes, you got it! 





Affaircare said:


> So I recommend going over the whole WTFS...not just the S part. By doing the whole thing it actually makes you think about things, like "Exactly what was it that made me feel hurt?" It makes you narrow down and identify exactly what it made you think...what were your thoughts? It helps you identify exactly how you felt...especially if you look up Feeling Words and try to choose one other than "hurt" or "angry"--pick one that's a specific adjective! Then once you've really dug and gotten to precisely the incident that caused the issue, pinpointed your thoughts and shared them, discerned your feelings and shared them...then you think about what would resolve the issue? What would actually "make things right"?



Great advice. Thank you for taking the time to explain how that would look.





Affaircare said:


> It sounds to me like you have a LOT of anger.


Hmmm. I think I do. Ive never known how to deal with anger, except to stuff it. 



Affaircare said:


> I suspect he feels anger focused on him rather than patience, kindness, gentleness, protection, trust, or hope... and I'm not saying he does or doesn't "deserve" the anger. That's not the topic here today.


Apparently Im not stuffing it as well as I used to?? LOL 



Affaircare said:


> What IS the topic is to address what's really inside you, not so that you're pretending you're okay and biting your tongue, but so that your actions change and his actions change and some of the anger can siphon off.


Could it really be that simple? I know it's not easy, but will my anger siphon off if I feel that i don't have to pretend and bite my tongue because I know he can't handle my emotions in the midst of his?
Maybe that's why Im so angry?




Affaircare said:


> As long as he hurts you and you hurt him back and he hurts you back...that cycle will continue until you've killed the marriage. So the idea is to stop the cycle. Call a truce. When he hurts you, yes, it's true you'll be the "bigger man" and say "I'm not going to hurt you back, but I'm also not just going to take your hurt without at least speaking out loud that what you did is not acceptable to me."
> 
> 
> 
> See what I mean a little?



I do. 
I never try to hurt him. But apparently my thinly veiled anger and holding back my true feelings about an issue cause pain in the long run. 
If I can try to think the best of what he is saying first...I might have a chance to also be heard when I need to speak. I donno if that is what you are saying but I am seeing that a step I wan tot add to our dance is letting him know that I do hear him.
I think somehow in all of my 'great. understanding and insight' I forget to let him know that i hear him and that his perspective is valid.

Im going to try that. Ill keep you posted.


----------



## Affaircare

I have a super easy suggestion. 

What happens if you talk to your hubby and propose the idea of "taking turns talking about emotions"? What if you frame it like it is YOU and HIM versus "the problem" and that you two as a team need to figure out how to address it together...and then propose he gets a turn to say what hurt him and you promise to respond with saying back to him what he said and making sure you understood...and then YOU get your turn to say what hurt you and he also agrees to respond with saying back to you what you said and making sure he understood?

I mean... have you ever tried just asking out loud for "your turn"?


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## farsidejunky

@Anon Pink


----------



## tigerlily99

Affaircare said:


> I have a super easy suggestion....
> 
> 
> ...I mean... have you ever tried just asking out loud for "your turn"?



 I'm going to try that. Haha! Seems so simple it just might work. 

I have been listening to an online course about relationships. H has been open to listening too and that has given us some ideas. I think that this will fit right into it.


----------



## tigerlily99

(Disclaimer: this is a long meandering blow-by-blow discussion. Writing it out helps me to assess my own communication issues. Feel free to comment your observations but know that I am a work in progress and just trying to learn new steps in this dance of communication.)

I had an opportunity today to use the "your turn, my turn thing" @Affaircare

It was a low key political topic that became a tiny bit heated when I said something that in my mind I genuinely was trying to support my H in by agreeing with him and he responded to it with a sharp and strong, "That's not true!"
I was confused and somewhat flabbergasted that he was reacting this way when I was actually agreeing with his point.

(Spoiler alert: It turns out he thought I was ARGUING not agreeing. Haha I wish I had real life spoiler alerts during arguments, it would be SO much easier!) 

So this is how the discussion went:
I made what I thought was a supporting statement.
He snapped, "that's not true!"
I said, "What are you saying??"
and made an 'I'm confused', flabbergasted face.

He said something like, "geez 
you don't have to bite my head off!"
I said, "Woah you bit first!"
He said well you don't have to 
turn into a chocolate dragon and bite back!" (i.e. passive aggressive).

We argued a bit at this point about his tone of voice and strong response and why was he calling me a dragon? He admitted he was being a t-Rex but I didn't have to bite back. He then began to refer to me as 'going off' and that he just had to wait until I calm back down because there is no taking to me when I 'get like that.' He said I must still have baggage from the past that I am bringing into it and I need to stop doing that. 
I said that It's possible that yes I do have baggage and I AM willing to address that, but in this instance I was reacting to the current situation and responding to what felt like an attack. 
(At this point I was genuinely confused because I didn't realize he thought I was arguing so this felt really out of the blue. Also what he was describing is exactly how I feel about HIM! So I was feeling sort of in the twilight zone.)
I asked him "what made you feel like I was biting back?"
(I was wondering what exactly I had done that he was perceiving as aggressive.)
He couldn't seem to formulate what I said or did that made him feel I was being defensive or biting. Just kept stating how obvious it was.
I asked again what I said exactly that felt like I was being defensive.
He said, "are you saying that you weren't being aggressive? Are you saying you didn't react to my T-Rex statement by biting back?"

I said, "I was just trying to figure out why you were saying it like that by asking what you meant. Was the aggressiveness non-verbal?"

He said "Well you were getting all intense, raising your eyebrows and looking at me like I'm stupid."

"Oh ok, so it was non-verbal."

Silence.

I said, "I am very sorry that I sent the message that you are stupid. I do not think you are stupid."

He tried to keep talking at this point and move on, ( just like before) and I interrupted him and said, "Can you accept my apology before you move on. I'm trying to say that I am sorry for making you feel like I thought you are stupid and I'm wondering if you can receive that."

He said, "Yes I accept that."

So then he moved on and explained a bunch more. After the explaining and some more talking, (which I'm skipping for brevity's sake) I said, "Ok so I'm hearing you say that when I made that statement you perceived me to be arguing with you and so in the future if I say something like, 'I agree with you' first and then say my supporting statement that would work better."

Then I asked, "do you feel like I heard you?"
He said "yes."
I said, "Good."

I waited a bit then said, "so now do you feel you can hear my side of things?" (I.e., my turn. Normally I would just skip this part and hope to talk about it later, which I think has been a bad strategy.)
He said yes.

I told him that I heard him saying that when he called me a chocolate dragon that was a repair attempt but I wanted him to know that calling me that actually made me feel bad and hurt my feelings. I was not able to receive it as a repair attempt. I said that if he is wanting to throw out a repair attempt could he make it about him and not calling me something because I'm not able to receive it that way.
He said, "so I can never say anything about you?"
I said, "only when you're trying to make a repair attempt."
He said, "ok"
I asked, "So can you tell me what you're hearing me say?"

He was thought for a bit, then said, "I hurt your feelings.
I thought he was being a little passive-aggressive and clarified, "I'm not saying you can't say anything about me right now, this is me wanting to hear if you heard my heart toward you."
He said again, "I hurt your feelings."
I said, "ok that's true but do you know how I feel about you? What my heart is toward you?"

He wasn't able to really articulate anymore and I was starting to feel like I was pushing it. Like I was 'schooling' him and I don't want to do that so we ended the discussion. 


Overall, I'm seeing that I did somethings better than the past but I'm still pretty prickly unfortunately.
For example I don't know why I reacted so strongly to him calling me a chocolate dragon. (This term was in the online class I'm listening to as a moniker for passive aggressive which was described as the worst of all forms of communicators.)
I think perhaps he thought of it as cute and wanted to use it as a way to get me to see how he was experiencing my facial expressions. I'm not sure. But all of this was so confusing for me when he first got upset because inside of me I was trying to NOT argue or make points that aren't supportive. 

It seems he is incredibly sensitive to facial expressions and body language. This particular interaction really helped me see that because I knew that I hadn't actually said anything offensive or raised my voice.
He took my body language to say that he is stupid. 

I feel sad for him that he thinks that so easily.  it wasn't at all what I was thinking. But it has gotten me thinking: maybe he perceives his difficulties in communicating as 'stupid'.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@tigerlilly99 it sounds like you are listening and really trying to see how your words, actions and expressions are perceived. That's really good.

I'd like to amplify something about yOur recent post where you comment that you were surprised that your demeanor made such an impression on him.

Men - even quiet introspective men - are very protective of their ego. If you see men in an argument - even in business settings - you will see them stopping short of dominating each other if they want to work together productively again. There is always a little wiggle room to allow the other to escape. It's hard to articulate, but when men cross that line, they seethe and often the relationship is damaged beyond repair.

Women often do not recognize this subtitle line, and I've seen them cross it. They are immediately a "b" - not because they were assertive, but because they crossed a line and attacked a man's ego and allowed no wiggle room. They perhaps made a direct, true attack that the man could not recover from. They made the man look foolish or weak.

In contrast, when men get into striking distance, the politically successful ones redirect their attack on the decisions or actions of the other. The foolishness of the other us only implied. To be successful the boss must really get the stupidity of the idea and the political opportunist will have tied his opponent to the idea. The boss decides it's a horrible plan, backs up, takes a new direction (conveniently provided by the opportunist), and the political loser is saddled with a bad plan.

It's a subtle game that men instinctively play. Like wolves placing their teeth on the neck of the submissive / losing wolf and that wolf allowing and going limp. The winner doesn't bite (gloat) and the loser limps off to kick his wounds.

So back to your relationship. Public displays of dissatisfaction - verbal and non-verbal - are direct attacks at his ego. They are the nuclear option. They can not be wiggled out of and they clearly covey disrespect (regardless of how they are intended). Rolling your eyes or raising your eyebrows are aggressive and dominating moves - like barring your teeth to a dog. They will take on great meaning.

If you can avoid minimizing what I am saying - and avoid thinking he should just tough it up - you may make even better progress

Of course if your H we're here I'd tell him to toughen up, but I'd also tell him to shut you down in public the next time you disrespected him (even if it wasn't meant) because that would allow him to save face and protect his ego


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tigerlily99

TheTruthHurts said:


> @tigerlilly99 it sounds like you are listening and really trying to see how your words, actions and expressions are perceived. That's really good.


Thank you. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> I'd like to amplify something about yOur recent post where you comment that you were surprised that your demeanor made such an impression on him.
> 
> Men - even quiet introspective men - are very protective of their ego. If you see men in an argument - even in business settings - you will see them stopping short of dominating each other if they want to work together productively again. There is always a little wiggle room to allow the other to escape. It's hard to articulate, but when men cross that line, they seethe and often the relationship is damaged beyond repair.


This is incredibly helpful. I've read it over several times and I think I am beginning to understand. I do see this, men always give each other an out. It's usually far beyond where I would feel comfortable but it's there. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> Women often do not recognize this subtitle line, and I've seen them cross it. They are immediately a "b" - not because they were assertive, but because they crossed a line and attacked a man's ego and allowed no wiggle room. They perhaps made a direct, true attack that the man could not recover from. They made the man look foolish or weak.


As a woman, esp the one who holds my H's heart in the palm of my hand that line seems very easy to inadvertently cross. Even MORESO after having betrayed his trust and made him to feel less of a man to begin with. (Referring to my EA 4 years ago)

I guess just the raising of my eyebrows in confusion and befuddlement constitutes attacking his ego? 

Perhaps so. 



TheTruthHurts said:


> In contrast, when men get into striking distance, the politically successful ones redirect their attack on the decisions or actions of the other. The foolishness of the other us only implied. To be successful the boss must really get the stupidity of the idea and the political opportunist will have tied his opponent to the idea. The boss decides it's a horrible plan, backs up, takes a new direction (conveniently provided by the opportunist), and the political loser is saddled with a bad plan.
> 
> It's a subtle game that men instinctively play. Like wolves placing their teeth on the neck of the submissive / losing wolf and that wolf allowing and going limp. The winner doesn't bite (gloat) and the loser limps off to kick his wounds.


Fascinating.



TheTruthHurts said:


> So back to your relationship. Public displays of dissatisfaction - verbal and non-verbal - are direct attacks at his ego. They are the nuclear option. They can not be wiggled out of and they clearly covey disrespect (regardless of how they are intended). Rolling your eyes or raising your eyebrows are aggressive and dominating moves - like barring your teeth to a dog. They will take on great meaning.


This is a pretty tough one because apparently I raise my eyebrows a lot! And it doesn't always mean any of that. Lol
But I do hear what you're saying and I certainly want to be more aware of how my non-verbal cues are effecting him.



TheTruthHurts said:


> If you can avoid minimizing what I am saying - and avoid thinking he should just tough it up - you may make even better progress.


How did you know I would do that?  
But in all seriousness I do see what you're saying. I am looking at it with open mindedness and hoping that being aware of the (dare I say it?) fragility of my H's ego will help me to be more respectful, gentle and kind.



TheTruthHurts said:


> Of course if your H we're here I'd tell him to toughen up, but I'd also tell him to shut you down in public the next time you disrespected him (even if it wasn't meant) because that would allow him to save face and protect his ego.



Ok fair enough. 



Over all this post has been very helpful to me. Thank you for taking the time to explain these things to me.
I recognize that I am asking him to amend the way he treats me, so I'm game to also choose to treat him in the way that helps him be the most safe feeling and open to me. (Without sacrificing or silencing my self like I used to.)


----------



## TheTruthHurts

@tigerlily99 you need not silence yourself. But practice in a mirror or make a video of yourself with your phone. See if you are conveying your thoughts - or your thoughts and judgements of him. If he feels judged - that can be a problem (many men do this to their wives btw).

My W doesn't always understand the line either, but she errs on the side of "clamming up" to avoid upsetting me. I'd rather she speak up and allow me to feel whatever I might feel instead of "protecting" me from "bad feelings". So she goes to the other extreme,

And I also try to work on this - my direct approach can come off as too harsh for "my delicate flower".

So you are far from being alone on this quest to communicate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tigerlily99

TheTruthHurts said:


> [MENTION=220513]
> 
> And I also try to work on this - my direct approach can come off as too harsh for "my delicate flower".
> 
> So you are far from being alone on this quest to communicate.




My H calls this trying to "rainbow it up" when he is attempting to say something that he knows I might think is too harsh. 

He's so funny though because he often 'rainbows up' something that I would've been just fine with but then blurts out things that when I react negatively he is frustrated and unapologetic. Haha. But as I have been less silent and sharing my true feelings he is a faster 'learner' than I at one time assumed.


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## kag123

This thread is amazing, and one of those gems I like TAM for. Fascinating and I feel like I am the OP, but only ~9 years in rather than 20. Same problems here in my marriage, so I'm going to be reading along and trying to absorb as much as I can. 

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## sokillme

I know I am coming in late to the party but I thought I would say this is very good stuff in my opinion. In my mind this is how the beginnings of real effective communication works. 



tigerlily99 said:


> It seems he is incredibly sensitive to facial expressions and body language. This particular interaction really helped me see that because I knew that I hadn't actually said anything offensive or raised my voice.
> He took my body language to say that he is stupid.
> 
> I feel sad for him that he thinks that so easily.  it wasn't at all what I was thinking. But it has gotten me thinking: maybe he perceives his difficulties in communicating as 'stupid'.


 
One thing I would like to say about this last quote here. It seems very dismissive. It is possible that your non-verbal communication is not as effective as you think. Don't just assume the reason why he interprets it one way is because he is somehow defective or insecure. You don't see the faces you make. Communication is a two way street, this is a place where YOU need to work on communicating more effectively. It's not on him, he can only take you queues he can't read your mind. 

What I am saying is instead of feeling like you need to dumb down how you respond, for the time being be mindful of what your expressions are conveying. Your face may look exasperated from frustration of the fact that you two are not successfully transferring information, but all he sees is exasperation, he has to guess at the context. He may be thinking that it is exasperation about what he has just said to you. That is perfectly reasonable, and why you must be mindful to say how you feel.

Overall though, I believe what you described is how healthy couples argue.


----------



## tigerlily99

sokillme said:


> I know I am cumming in late to the party but I thought I would say this is very good stuff in my opinion. In my mind this is how the beginnings of real effective communication works.


I sure hope so!! Thanks so much for the vote of confidence.




sokillme said:


> One thing I would like to say about this last quote here. It seems very dismissive. It is possible that your non-verbal communication is not as effective as you think. Don't just assume the reason why he interprets it one way is because he is somehow defective or insecure. You don't see the faces you make. Communication is a two way street, this is a place where YOU need to work on communicating more effectively. It's not on him, he can only take you queues he can't read your mind.


Yes I agree. And tbh I didn't think much of my non-verbal communication. I sort of discounted it completely. Obviously it isn't translating into the message of my heart if my H assumes that he is stupid because 
of one look. Which stands to reason that my non-verbal cues are not making H feel loved and safe. So I agree I'm bad at it. Lol



sokillme said:


> What I am saying is instead of feeling like you need to dumb down how you respond, for the time being be mindful of what your expressions are conveying. Your face may look exasperated from frustration of the fact that you two are not successfully transferring information, but all he sees is exasperation, he has to guess at the context. He may be thinking that it is exasperation about what he has just said to you. That is perfectly reasonable, and why you must be mindful to say how you feel.


This is brilliant. Thank you. His sensitivity to me makes him assume my negative faces are judging him, when actually I am just frustrated or confused or stumped. I need to see the sensitivity as love and awareness not some kind of weakness.



sokillme said:


> Overall though, I believe what you described is how healthy couples argue.



Thank you. We've been working toward being a healthy couple for a long time now!


----------



## sokillme

tigerlily99 said:


> Yes I agree. And tbh I didn't think much of my non-verbal communication. I sort of discounted it completely. Obviously it isn't translating into the message of my heart if my H assumes that he is stupid because
> of one look. Which stands to reason that my non-verbal cues are not making H feel loved and safe. So I agree I'm bad at it. Lol


OK here comes one of my long winded posts. I apologize to the other posters on this board. 

Gently. He feels he is stupid because you had an affair. Because you chose another man over him. I want to draw your attention to this quote of yours you wrote- 



> Then, quite by accident, I found out that men actually ARE capable of enjoying conversation! I was unknowingly being very sexist in thinking that just because of my experience ALL men are incapable of deep emotional connections.
> H and I developed a mutual friendship with a new couple and I got along better with the husband than the wife. We began chatting about this and that (never anything sexual or confessions of mutual interest, just chatting about life.)
> I didn't realize that it could even be considered an "affair" until I found myself missing talking to OM when I was on vacation with my H and kids.
> I had been naively under the impression that connection through talking was so unimportant and trivial that my need for it was relegated to women only and didn't or couldn't mean anything romantic or sexual.
> 
> One of the reasons I believed this so strongly was because my H knew about and condoned the friendship. It wasn't until that above mentioned vacation that I saw how deeply I had become entrenched in a strong connection with the wrong guy!


I wonder if this hasn't been conveyed in some way to him as far as an explanation of the affair. Maybe not even in that context maybe it was givien as the reason why you were talking to that guy, and why he "condoned" the friendship. "This is lacking in our relationship so this is why I am friends with this new guy. You are not very good at this, he is better at it then you." Husband thinks, my wife thinks when it comes to this I am stupid. Damn... I didn't even know I need to do this and don't know the first thing about going about that. I guess I should just let her have this guy as a friend. But I really don't like it. What can I do. (I think this plays out like this for lots of men). 

Now I want to try to convey the same idea to you in a way that it might have more of an impact on you as far as how this quote is affecting him. 

Imagine he physically cheated on you, now I don't know you but lets just say you are attractive and try to keep yourself in good shape. He is repentant but tries to explain it and he writes something like this.


I feel so terrible about what I did. It was so wrong but I never knew sex could be like this. My wife is beautiful but she is just not sexy. I never knew what that was like until I found out what I was missing.​

Now say when you found out about that you talked about it over years and your husband says to you, "I know I was wrong. It was awful what I did, but I just needed you to be more sexy." In my made up scenario maybe it was even true you were a cold fish, and even YOU now realize you needed to try harder at it. Here is the thing, what do you think that would do for your confidence when trying to be sexy now? Do you think most of the time you would believe that your husband just thought you were sexy? Or really just a cold fish? Would it be easy to be sexy with your husband?

I say all that not to give you a hard time about wanting better communication with your husband. That is absolutely paramount, and a necessary. I say that because you have to understand what you have done to him. Of course he thinks you think he is stupid when it comes to communication. You kind of say so in your quote. You quote can be taken as "I thought all men were neandertales but it turns out there not just guys like my husband." Now that is an extreme interpretation of the quote and I know you would never really say it that way but when you say it and then compare him to the guy you had an EA with, that has got to hurt. I hope you haven't conveyed this to him even just implying it. 

In that context I would like to point out another thing. I believe I am a very emotionally intelligent guy. (there is my modesty again) It's kind of easy for me. You may have seen one of my posts where I figured out my friend from work was cheated on just by the way he was acting. To this day no one knows anything is wrong. I figured it out the first day basically guessed it and asked him because he was suffering so. Now I am like his only confident about it because I happened to be the guy who guessed. I am this way because my Mother basically made me talk about my feelings and others feeling all the time. My Mother is a teacher and probably the most emotionally intelligent person I know. I was raised to talk. I say all that not to prop myself up but because I want you to look at this a different way. 

Talking is easy for me. It's in my nature. You know what is not easy for me. Cleaning the bathroom. NOT talking about stuff that is bothering my wife when we fight right away because she need to process first. That is absoultly not in my nature. I do it because it is what she needs. Now when am I being the best husband to her. When I use a skill that comes so easy for me or when I wait a day to talk about something even though I have to painfully ruminate on it the whole time because I know it is better for my marriage. 

Again I say this one because it sounds like from your first post that you are kind of still mourning the loss of this communicative guy you were talking to. Now maybe I am wrong. I think I am that kind of guy. That doesn't make me special or a good catch for my wife. You know what makes me a good catch. That I fight like hell to change my nature for her. Your husband is doing that it seems, after you hurt him even. And he probably is feeling the at least a little like what I wrote about in the first few paragraphs on this post. MAYBE HE AIN'T DOCTOR PHIL, maybe he never will be. But he is a great catch. Your talkative guy was not some lost chance you had in another better life. He was an ******* hitting on some friend of his wife while being married, or at the very least being highly inappropriate. Using a skill that came easy to him kind of like a beautiful married women who uses her body to attract a married friends husband. I hope you get that. You married the right guy because he is there still fighting for you!

One last thing, and I know I am being hard on you. Never stopped me before  You need to stop seeing yourself as a great communicator and your husband as a dunce. No you didn't say that but you write that way. You write like "I feel so bad that he doesn't get it." I have to be honest. If you were really the communicator you think you were you wouldn't be on this board writing about it. Just now in these last posts you are really learning to communicate, it seems you both are. Your husband is probably not the terrible communicator you make him out to be and you are probably not as good at it as you think. Besides that both of you could be great and still you need to learn how to do it together. Seems you guys never really learned this skill as a team. I don't blame you, how many husbands and wives use the technique you guys just used. Not many, but that is what it takes. The point I am making here is if you always assume the problem is him then you remove the possibility that YOU might be the problem sometimes. And if you are the problem and you don't fix it it ain't going to be fixed. Don't discount the possibility that you are not effectively saying what you mean. Attack the problem from both sides. 

Again I could be all wrong. I don't know you except from this post, but I at least want to give you a different perspective. 

I know I sounds pretentious, which is kind of my MO I guess, but I empathize with your husband. So many men struggle at talking because they were never given the tools to do it. It is a huge problem in today's society and why so many men are failing in the communication age. Very often this is a failing of their mothers because like you they believed the stereotype you wrote about never gave them a chance by teaching them how. But think about all the great literature, movies, plays, songs, poems that were written by men. How many beloved love stories were written by Men. The stereotype is stupid, it's just as dumb as the ones used on women. 

Overall I think you should be excited about this last talk. I think you have had a breakthrough you can build on. Your husband and you are certainly capable of deep emotional connection you just have to find it. Everyone is!


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## Affaircare

@tigerlily99, 

Your last post really got me thinking, and some of what you wrote, didn't entirely "make sense" to me because it felt like there were pieces of the puzzle obscured if not entirely missing. So to help interpret your post, I did a little internet research. I'd like to summarize what I THINK happened. Will you let me know if I "got it"? 

The thing that threw me for a loop was this whole "chocolate dragon" "T-Rex" thing. You guys seemed to know what it meant--to each other--but it didn't make a lot of sense to me (unless you're black and your spirit animal is dragons and his is dinosaurs! LOL). Soooo..I looked it up. Here's the TL;DR version: There are 3 ways of communicating: aggressive which would be attacking like a T-Rex and ripping things to shreads; passive which would be like a goat just munching away at grass waiting for the T-Rex to attack; and there's passive-aggressive which would be like a chocolate-covered dragon, in that it looks sweet and lovely on the outside, but inside it's all teeth and fire and protective dragon scales! 

Now I'm not claiming to be a communication expert and I don't want to analyze this particular communication "strategy" or anything. I just wanted to have some frame of reference when I look at what occurred to see what in the world you guys were meaning to each other. 

So essentially what happened is that he was talking about politics. I'm going to make an example and pretend that he was saying "Obamacare is good!"  LOL Okay so you said some statement that in your mind was supportive of Obamacare being good, but which was not just saying out loud that Obamacare is good. For example, let's pretend that you said "Yes, healthcare is a human right." 

In his mind, Obamacare may offer some fine alternatives for people who have no options for healthcare, and he may think it offers some sort of care to folks with pre-existing conditions at least, but healthcare is not a human right, so he says "That's not true!"

You say, "What are you saying?" and made a flabbergasted face like this:









Now, speaking as my own self, if someone looks at me with that flabbergasted face, it means that they are dumbfounded that I don't agree with what they said, and that anyone with any kind of brain would see what they said is true. Bear in mind, I don't want a political debate here, I want a communication discussion. That's they way I'd interpret it: you CAN'T BELIEVE IT. 

So he jumps to that conclusion without checking, and he says "Geez you don't have to bite my head off." 

Right there, that's a spot where he is communicating to you what he felt like. He was talking about Obamacare. You went off topic and then were NONPLUSSED that he did not see it your way. He feels like you bit his head off. 

Then, rather than saying, "Oh wait? Did it seem to you like I bit your head off?" [To which he could have replied "Yes it did" and then you could have said "Oh shoot. I didn't mean that. I love you and was trying to be supportive."] You could have RELATED to him right there, and communicated to him that you heard him and care. 

Instead you defend and deflect back on him--he did it first! Well...this isn't kindergarten. It doesnt matter 'who started it.' What matters is "What are you going to do about YOUR SIDE of the street?" He will have to be responsible for his side of the street, and he may choose to make his side of the street a disastrous mess! But that's not your job. Your job is to be personally responsible FOR YOU. How YOU talk to him. How YOU respond to him. How YOU choose to act toward him. That's all you! 

Okay so you deflected the conflict back on him, and he says "Well you don't have to be a chocolate-covered dragon!" (There he is, trying to use the new term and skill he's learning from that communication course. He's working at it.) Again, he's telling you that it felt passive-aggressive to him. You were "agreeing out loud, but silently sabotaging." Now, think of your best friend in the world (other than him). I'm envisioning your BFF or that girl you've been friends with since high school who just GETS YOU. Would you ever, EVER want her to feel like you were indirectly resisting her? Would you want your best friend to feel like you were obstructing the friendship? If you would never want that for your FRIEND why would you want that for the man you LOVE?

You wrote:


> It seems he is incredibly sensitive to facial expressions and body language. This particular interaction really helped me see that because I knew that I hadn't actually said anything offensive or raised my voice. He took my body language to say that he is stupid.
> 
> I feel sad for him that he thinks that so easily.  it wasn't at all what I was thinking. But it has gotten me thinking: maybe he perceives his difficulties in communicating as 'stupid'.


 @tigerlily99, in my former marriage, I was with a man who would scream at me for an hour because I had a look on my face or "a tone" in my voice. I couldn't help but think "If a look on my face or tone in my voice hurts you THAT BADLY, what do you think being screamed at for an hour does to me?" So I get one thing--to you it feels like you can't have any expression on your face without it being an excuse for him to rage. I also get that we are being really minute here and picking it apart moment by moment which is hard to do "in the heat of the moment." But part of learning is to be able to go back and evaluate "What happened last time?" "What was good and I want to do that again?" "What did not go so well and I want to do ___ differently next time?" Right? 

One thing I am having trouble getting past, though, is that he is communicating to you ALL OVER THE PLACE!! The guy wishes you treated him with respect instead of being independent or defiant. He's afraid of being hurt by you over and over. He does not feel heard. He doesn't feel like HE is as important as YOU. I think he's feels like the goat and he's getting sick of being attacked so he's turned T-Rex to defend himself! 

So I'd like to end this post with a story. I hope maybe it will turn on a light for you. Back when I was married to my exH, I used to ask him to PLEASE HELP with the kids, the dishes, the chores...and yes, of course, I had that exasperated tone of voice because it was his house too and they were his kids too and why did he assumed I'd just take care of it all? I was pissed, damn it!! Anyway, one day I asked him--nagged him really--to load the damn dishwasher. All day I reminded himn and reminded him, and finally he got in a huff and got up and loaded it. What did I do? Did I say "YAY, thank you! Good job I appreciate it!" and kiss him? NO!!! I YELLED AT HIM because he "loaded it wrong!" 

A couple days later, same thing happened. I asked him to change the baby's diaper. I nagged and nagged and REALLY nagged, and finally he got up all angry and started changing the baby's diaper. Did I say "Whew thank God, I have a partner in life I can depend on and I'm so grateful!" NO!!! I YELLED AT HIM because "he put the diaper on wrong!" 

And in that instant, I looked at his face, and I looked at the baby with the diaper on backwards, and you know what I realized? It is a DIAPER. It didn't matter which direction it was--it still caught the poop and pee. He was the child's FATHER and I was treating him like the only way to do things "right" was MY WAY! Well guess what? There can be other ways that are just as right, but they are different. If I ran the dishwasher with the dishes loaded "wrong" wouldn't they get clean? Okay maybe it's more efficient my way or something silly like that, but if he was doing what I asked, that means it wasn't on my shoulders and he was listening to my request! AND my response to him even trying was to find fault and use force!

It's no wonder he wasn't helping. I wouldn't help under those circumstances, would you? I'd give up. I'd figure I was going to get it either way, might as well get it for doing nothing! LOL Plus, if someone comes to the house and they are a guest, do you nag them? Do you force them to do things "your way"? Nope, you treat them politely and use some manners. And they are just GUESTS--why would someone treat their spouse, who loves you and whom you love, worse than someone who's just a guest? And here's the thing: we are all human beings! We all want to be accepted for who we are! We all want to be heard and understood by one other human being. We all want to be appreciated and valued. 

Does that make sense? I am POSITIVE that you want to be appreciated for all that you do for your husband and family. I am POSITIVE that you want to feel like your husband heard and understood your thoughts and feelings. I am POSITIVE you want to feel accepted for who you are, warts and all. This is exactly the same thing HE WANTS!!


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## tigerlily99

Some tough things for me to think over tonight!

I feel a little lost, like I can't remember what I thought was so bad about my H's communication that I wanted to ask for help since I am apparently out of touch with my own shortcomings. 
But...that is, of course, the reason I am talking here on this forum, I know we can't see our own blind spots...give me a day and I'll own my own 'stuff'!

I'm not scared off or mad, just not sure if 
a. I'm representing the situation accurately and you all are seeing things clearly that I don't see, or 
b. I'm just sharing my side because I'm the only one here and I don't want to vilify my H.

My tendency is to take on the blame for things.
H's tendency has been to be the T-Rex when it comes to communicating about hard things. (He was raised in a family where they yell and cuss and get it out, then never talk about it again...so he's come a ways!)

Clearly we, AS A COUPLE, have communication issues. (All caps because I don't know how to bold in this interface.)

I do not think that he is the only culprit, if that were so then I'd be naive, because you can't be a good communicator if the person your trying to communicate with isn't getting the message!

My complaint or source of pain has been my H's zero-to-60 way of telling me something is wrong and then his withdrawal and distancing himself when he gets hurt. (Which, I now see, is in no small part due to my non-verbal communication)

So my take away at this point is that his criticism of my facial expressions and tone of voice are something that I need to take to heart.

I want to work on that and see what happens.

I will respond on a more personal level later to @sokillme & @Affaircare 
Thank you again for taking the time! 
Goodnight.


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## farsidejunky

I was hesitant to post this, because often people will read this article and see it in others as opposed to themselves.

So, when you read this, see it through the prism or your own behavior rather than your husband's.

Enjoy.

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


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## sokillme

tigerlily99 said:


> Some tough things for me to think over tonight!
> 
> I feel a little lost, like I can't remember what I thought was so bad about my H's communication that I wanted to ask for help since I am apparently out of touch with my own shortcomings.
> But...that is, of course, the reason I am talking here on this forum, I know we can't see our own blind spots...give me a day and I'll own my own 'stuff'!
> 
> I'm not scared off or mad, just not sure if
> a. I'm representing the situation accurately and you all are seeing things clearly that I don't see, or
> b. I'm just sharing my side because I'm the only one here and I don't want to vilify my H.
> 
> My tendency is to take on the blame for things.
> H's tendency has been to be the T-Rex when it comes to communicating about hard things. (He was raised in a family where they yell and cuss and get it out, then never talk about it again...so he's come a ways!)
> 
> Clearly we, AS A COUPLE, have communication issues. (All caps because I don't know how to bold in this interface.)
> 
> I do not think that he is the only culprit, if that were so then I'd be naive, because you can't be a good communicator if the person your trying to communicate with isn't getting the message!
> 
> My complaint or source of pain has been my H's zero-to-60 way of telling me something is wrong and then his withdrawal and distancing himself when he gets hurt. (Which, I now see, is in no small part due to my non-verbal communication)
> 
> So my take away at this point is that his criticism of my facial expressions and tone of voice are something that I need to take to heart.
> 
> I want to work on that and see what happens.
> 
> I will respond on a more personal level later to @sokillme & @Affaircare
> Thank you again for taking the time!
> Goodnight.


Hey maybe I was a little rough on you. It's hard to convey this stuff in text plus my style is blunt. I personally like blunt but I know for some it comes across as an attack. Not my intention. My basic point is don't worry about who is at fault, their can really be no one at fault, it's just that you both didn't learn to talk to each other. I also hope you have given up too easily on the fact that your husband isn't a talker. I think you can work on this. Finally don't discount that he feels insecure about it, if he has gotten the message that this is something you have always been disappointed about in your marriage.

Finally don't let my harshness dissuade you from the great success you had the other day. I really believe you had a brake though. If you guys keep talking intensely like you did you will really start to pass information back and forth and learn about each other.


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## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> ... My basic point is don't worry about who is at fault, their can really be no one at fault, it's just that you both didn't learn to talk to each other. I also hope you have given up too easily on the fact that your husband isn't a talker. I think you can work on this. Finally don't discount that he feels insecure about it, if he has gotten the message that this is something you have always been disappointed about in your marriage...


 @tigerlily99, 

I'm quoting what @sokillme wrote because this part is SO TRUE! You communicate the way you do. Your hubby communicates the way he does. But I think it's similar to you speaking French and him speaking German--you two ARE both communicating, but not with each other. Maybe you can learn some German and he can learn some French...or maybe you both learn sign language! 

Also, I want to re-iterate what @sokillme said about hubby not being a talker--or at least 'not a skilled orator.' My own Dear Hubby is not a talker. He's a capital I Introvert and also has lung disease so he can't converse for more than about 15 minutes. He's a man of few words! And yet he communicates A LOT. He communicates with his music. He communicates with his actions. He smiles. He holds hands. He cuddles. He sits near me all day. So I don't look for "words spoken out loud" to get a message from him--I look at his music as a clue to his mood and feelings. I look at his actions as a clue to how he physically feels. I ask him rather than assuming--"You're pretty quiet today and your music is subdued. Are you feeling ill today?" 

I get it. To you, your hubby's communication feels T-Rex. For now, can you accept that 'feeling' and see if you can objectively look beyond it for other ways he communicates?


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## tigerlily99

sokillme said:


> OK here comes one of my long winded posts. I apologize to the other posters on this board.
> 
> Gently. He feels he is stupid because you had an affair. Because you chose another man over him.


Yes. There's always that. And it's important that I do remember how that effected him. He has had such a great attitude about it that I forget sometimes how much he's been through!




sokillme said:


> Now I want to try to convey the same idea to you in a way that it might have more of an impact on you as far as how this quote is affecting him.
> 
> Imagine he physically cheated on you, now I don't know you but lets just say you are attractive and try to keep yourself in good shape. He is repentant but tries to explain it and he writes something like this.
> 
> 
> I feel so terrible about what I did. It was so wrong but I never knew sex could be like this. My wife is beautiful but she is just not sexy. I never knew what that was like until I found out what I was missing.​


Yes this is an effective scenario and of course I would be crushed!



sokillme said:


> Again I say this one because it sounds like from your first post that you are kind of still mourning the loss of this communicative guy you were talking to. Now maybe I am wrong. I think I am that kind of guy. That doesn't make me special or a good catch for my wife. You know what makes me a good catch. That I fight like hell to change my nature for her. Your husband is doing that it seems, after you hurt him even. And he probably is feeling the at least a little like what I wrote about in the first few paragraphs on this post. MAYBE HE AIN'T DOCTOR PHIL, maybe he never will be. But he is a great catch. Your talkative guy was not some lost chance you had in another better life. He was an ******* hitting on some friend of his wife while being married, or at the very least being highly inappropriate. Using a skill that came easy to him kind of like a beautiful married women who uses her body to attract a married friends husband. I hope you get that. You married the right guy because he is there still fighting for you!


This is very well said and I completely agree. Again, a good reminder of truth and how wonderful my H has been to stay by my side and press through!
My H is most definitely the better man and I have been vocal about that. I have made sure he understands that I chose him, not just settled back into my current relationship because that was the easy choice. (After the ea ended.) 
But of course there is always that shadow over him. Thankfully he now understands that the thing I desired was connection, time, and communication, all things that are not unique to only one or two humans in earth but every one of us, like you mention at the end of your post. 




sokillme said:


> One last thing, and I know I am being hard on you. Never stopped me before  You need to stop seeing yourself as a great communicator and your husband as a dunce. No you didn't say that but you write that way.


This is very key. I have had a wake up during this thread because of you all and it is that, I may be a great communicator with words but my nonverbal communication is what my H reads first. If he is feeling sensitive or emotional he cannot get past that. Therefore I don't communicate well at all in that area. 
This is great news actually, it levels the playing field and knocks me off my pedestal so we can be equals again, which is what I desire.



sokillme said:


> Besides that both of you could be great and still you need to learn how to do it together. Seems you guys never really learned this skill as a team. I don't blame you, how many husbands and wives use the technique you guys just used. Not many, but that is what it takes. The point I am making here is if you always assume the problem is him then you remove the possibility that YOU might be the problem sometimes. And if you are the problem and you don't fix it it ain't going to be fixed. Don't discount the possibility that you are not effectively saying what you mean. Attack the problem from both sides.
> 
> Again I could be all wrong. I don't know you except from this post, but I at least want to give you a different perspective.


 You are 100% correct! We never learned to do this as a team. It's ok that we are learning now! Better late than never.



sokillme said:


> Overall I think you should be excited about this last talk. I think you have had a breakthrough you can build on. Your husband and you are certainly capable of deep emotional connection you just have to find it. Everyone is!



Thank you. I am excited and we had an amazing talk today that gives me so much joy - and careful hope, that some of our biggest hurdles are behind us.


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## Affaircare

tigerlily99 said:


> Thank you. I am excited and we had an amazing talk today that gives me so much joy - and careful hope, that some of our biggest hurdles are behind us.


:grin2:


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## tigerlily99

Affaircare said:


> Your last post really got me thinking, and some of what you wrote, didn't entirely "make sense" to me because it felt like there were pieces of the puzzle obscured if not entirely missing. So to help interpret your post, I did a little internet research. I'd like to summarize what I THINK happened. Will you let me know if I "got it"?


Im touched that you would actually do research on my communication thread! And yes, you got it! 
Loved the 'flabbergasted' face. It was perfect!



Affaircare said:


> Now, speaking as my own self, if someone looks at me with that flabbergasted face, it means that they are dumbfounded that I don't agree with what they said, and that anyone with any kind of brain would see what they said is true. Bear in mind, I don't want a political debate here, I want a communication discussion. That's they way I'd interpret it: you CAN'T BELIEVE IT.
> 
> So he jumps to that conclusion without checking, and he says "Geez you don't have to bite my head off."
> 
> Right there, that's a spot where he is communicating to you what he felt like. He was talking about Obamacare. You went off topic and then were NONPLUSSED that he did not see it your way. He feels like you bit his head off.
> 
> Then, rather than saying, "Oh wait? Did it seem to you like I bit your head off?" [To which he could have replied "Yes it did" and then you could have said "Oh shoot. I didn't mean that. I love you and was trying to be supportive."] You could have RELATED to him right there, and communicated to him that you heard him and care.



This is what I would like to be able to do in the future. 



Affaircare said:


> One thing I am having trouble getting past, though, is that he is communicating to you ALL OVER THE PLACE!! The guy wishes you treated him with respect instead of being independent or defiant. He's afraid of being hurt by you over and over. He does not feel heard. He doesn't feel like HE is as important as YOU. I think he's feels like the goat and he's getting sick of being attacked so he's turned T-Rex to defend himself! ....


My H has given himself the title of T-Rex. He took a test for his work about 3/4 years ago that had a scale of communication style and on one extreme it was violence and on the other side was silence. He was firmly planted in the violence side. This was a professional class with a test that was paid for by his work. 
It helped him a lot to understand why I (being a highly sensitive person) always had such a hard time hearing from him when he got passionate about things. Even though he thought he was just speaking his mind. He had struggled in the past with fits of rage and angry outbursts. So this helped him realize that it hadn't just ended with no more outbursts but was still manifesting in his way of communicating with me and others. (Including work colleagues) 

So yes, he IS communicating and he is open to learning, but he often does not express his own inner world without blaming, finger pointing or overall angry intensity. 

When he does this I don't handle it very well. Not to be dramatic but I have a lot of fear if I sense him starting to ramp up and get intense. He has never returned to the level of anger that he once exhibited but he's come close recently. 
Because I have made the inner decision of 'never again' I don't back down and cower like I used to. But THIS is the area where I need to learn a new skill. Assertiveness rather than whatever it is that I am doing! 




Affaircare said:


> So I'd like to end this post with a story. I hope maybe it will turn on a light for you....
> 
> ....Does that make sense? I am POSITIVE that you want to be appreciated for all that you do for your husband and family. I am POSITIVE that you want to feel like your husband heard and understood your thoughts and feelings. I am POSITIVE you want to feel accepted for who you are, warts and all. This is exactly the same thing HE WANTS!!




I think what I'm hearing you say is that I am asking him to do something that is important to me and he is doing his best and I keep correcting him.

I can see that. 

I do want to continue to remember to let him know when he is doing well and give him 'kudos'. I do work on this and we often pat ourselves on the back and give accolades when we do a good job and successfully understand one another.


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## tigerlily99

farsidejunky said:


> I was hesitant to post this, because often people will read this article and see it in others as opposed to themselves.
> 
> So, when you read this, see it through the prism or your own behavior rather than your husband's.
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/



This article was amazing. It explained the victim triangle so much better than anything I've read. Thanks so much.
I easily see my entry point and it all fits.
Wow!!


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## thedope

50% of the time it's good you say. Life isn't a fairy tale. Unfortunate but too, have realistic expectation. 50% of the time is happiness isn't terrible. Obviously you really need to get that up to 75% or something but You believe you can. Just keep working.


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