# HELP PLEASE : No intimacy for 25 years



## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

This is probably the most important letter I have ever written as it about my life, where it is now and where it is going.

The problem is I feel so alone and miserable with no sense of escape or release possible. Externally all looks good: I am healthy, I have a good job, a nice family, a good home. All the trappings of a respectable middle class family. 

The root of my unhappiness in my opinion has been an inability to emotionally and intimately connect with my wife. We have been married for 20 years, and have been together for 25 years.

At the beginning we were great friends, but the intimacy aspect of our relationship was at best patchy. I had previous girlfriends and the sparks of passion were hot, but with my wife no sparks existed, but friendship and companionship were very strong. Looking back my wife had no interest in intimacy and would never initiate. My advances were accepted in the beginning, but I always sensed a lack of interest or real engagement. 

When we got married, I believed that within marriage the intimacy aspects of our relationship would blossom. On our wedding night nothing happened, as she was tired. This turned into years, where we had no sex, and the few attempts we had resulted in arguments and disappointment for both of us. I took to masturbation for regular release. Reflecting back on this period, I am very angry with myself for being passive and not taking action to address, I kind of accepted the lack of intimacy as “normal” and got on with life. These years are blur for me now, I see them as lost years. 

After 6 years my wife’s sister got pregnant and this made my wife moody. I arranged sex therapy and I must say it worked, within 3 weeks my wife was pregnant. Unfortunately this was the end of our sex life. Over the next 5 years rare attempts were made where she would get angry because she was disappointed she didn’t climax, and felt I was not adequate or able to bring here to climax. As far as I am aware she has never had an orgasm in her life. During this period she found me masturbating a few times, and she saw this as perverted and weird. I explain that it was release, and ideally we should have intimacy. 

We both were terrible communicators and never really discussed our concerns, neither one of use engaging properly when the issue was raised. We drifted apart emotionally, until we were both living half lives, where deep down we mistrusted each other. On the surface we were nice to each other like brother and sister.

We have not had sex in 10 years now. With lots of rows and fights along the way, usually based on my behaviour: from not cleaning up to working long hours. This tears me to pieces internally, but I can get lost in my own fantasy world, where I dream of wonderful relationships with woman that I know. I dream very romantic dreams of courtship and falling in love most weeks. I have never been unfaithful, but was really tempted on many occasions, but something always stopped me, possibly guilt.

Our child is now 15, and very mature. I am approaching 50 and no longer can tolerate this life. I want to experience a fulfilling relationship with a woman who truly loves me, and I her. This woman could be my wife, but major changes from both of us would be needed. 

Last year I started daily reflection and keeping a journal of my thoughts. I realised that I want to fix the relationship with my wife, but when I raise our relationship I get nasty kicks like...”believe it when I see it”.or..”you are so full of ****”.....

Last September after many months of thinking how...I finally sit my wife down and say “Dear, I am not happy, I am living half a life, I need intimacy and love to survive. I love you, you are the love of my life and more than anything I want this marriage to be complete. But we both would need to be fully committed to each other and work hard to make it happen, I cannot live my life like this anymore and I want us to be closer than we have ever been and grow old in each other’s arms” ......she looked at me and the first words out of her mouth were...”I think we would be better people separated”. She also says that people our age rarely have sex, and that I am perverted because I masturbate and onlynthink about sex. 

She definitely has serious intimacy issues, but so do I for tolerating this situation. 

When I start discussing the steps necessary for a separation, she becomes upset, as she sees the personal challenges ahead for her. In many ways I have help create a nice bubble for her to live in. I am a good earner and she decided many years ago to give up her career. Her interests are gardening and cooking, both can be very solitary. 

I blame myself for this situation, as I left a serious problem fester for 25 years. I now want to finally address this problem. Either by communicating with my wife and creating a better relationship for both of us or moving on and find love elsewhere. I am prepared to go the counselling. I have gone twice on my own, but could never persuade my wife to attend. Counsellors confirmed that I needed to communicate with my wife more effectively. My wife is very articulate and can run rings around me in conversations, often it feels like being in court being cross examined by her. She still refuses to go to couples counselling. 

I discussed this problem with my sister, she has two insights, maybe my wife is a latent lesbian...(I have no evidence of this), and if she really loved me as a man and husband she would have worked hard to make the physical side work, if not for her sake..for mine.

My greatest fear is in 15 years time looking back at 2012, and see that I repeated my habits of inaction and complacency, and feel bitter and cheated by life 


I would love opinion and insight, as I am desperately unhappy.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I voted for you to separate now. You only get one life, as far as I know. And you've done what you can on your own to try to fix things, but if she's not willing to work with you, there's nothing much you can do about it.

C


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## helpwanted (Sep 16, 2012)

You are trying and she is not. It will never work if it is one sided. I would try and convince her to go to talk to someone with you and if she declines then you need to be stern and tell her this won't be tolerated anymore and she needs to think long and hard before she declines. let her know that if actions are taken that you will have no choice but to file for divorce. 

Maybe the threat of filing will knock her into gear or maybe not. You will never know unless you try. Good luck to you


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## helpwanted (Sep 16, 2012)

Also I voted to try and work it out on the guidelines i stated above. Obviously if she isn't interested in getting help you have no other option than to move on.


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## Open up now let it all go (Sep 20, 2012)

vitality said:


> My greatest fear is in 15 years time looking back at 2012, and see that I repeated my habits of inaction and complacency, and feel bitter and cheated by life
> 
> 
> I would love opinion and insight, as I am desperately unhappy.


This says it all IMO. You need to make some really hard boundaries for yourself as in "By x amount of time I want to reach y and if not I'll do Z". Don't waste another nanosecond waiting for something that's never going to come. Get yourself together and formulate a concrete plan to either make things work or to end it once and for all and try it with someone new.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I voted for option #2.
Separate now.

Your wife is attractive and can do whatever she wants with her life.
She does not desire intimacy, at least not with you.

You have already wasted 25 years. 
You cannot throw away your life behind someone who does not hold the same values a you, nor give a [email protected] about your emotional health.

You deserve to feel and be loved.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

She sounds like she experienced some sort of sexual trauma growing up....abuse? Rape?


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

V: hardest thing I am still learning, you can only control yourself! As things stand she sees you and all you do as not having any value, U are not worth effort on her part. No amount of wishing is going to make her change, only hope you have is to doing something major to wake her up, which is why I voted to separate now. Either she will come out of her fog or she won't. I was married 30 years, the last three years I experienced no intimacy, I was miserable. Then I got lucky, my wife had an affair and suddenly I was spurred to action. I lost weight, worked out like a monster, gave up tv and went back to church. Now 15 months later, I have a great,loving relationship with a lady who is interested in my feelings, needs and desires. The sex is AWESOME, but just as important the time we spend together is fun filled, exciting, and flys by. I would advise you to immediately start working on you. Not tomorrow, NOW! Be prepared for heart ache, 25years is a long time, but there are a lot of women looking for what you offer, a loving, caring relationship. Start now to ready yourself to meet them. Good luck to you. P.S. Your child knows more than you think, kids get it. My own daughter (age24). Said to me when seeing my despair. "dad, I love my mother, but she has never been happy, you tried but you couldn't make her happy, mom will never be happy, YOU CAN DO BETTER!". V, YOU CAN DO BETTER!


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

missymrs80 said:


> She sounds like she experienced some sort of sexual trauma growing up....abuse? Rape?


I was wondering that too.








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Hoosier said:


> V: hardest thing I am still learning, you can only control yourself! As things stand she sees you and all you do as not having any value, U are not worth effort on her part. No amount of wishing is going to make her change, only hope you have is to doing something major to wake her up, which is why I voted to separate now. Either she will come out of her fog or she won't. I was married 30 years, the last three years I experienced no intimacy, I was miserable. Then I got lucky, my wife had an affair and suddenly I was spurred to action. I lost weight, worked out like a monster, gave up tv and went back to church. Now 15 months later, I have a great,loving relationship with a lady who is interested in my feelings, needs and desires. The sex is AWESOME, but just as important the time we spend together is fun filled, exciting, and flys by. I would advise you to immediately start working on you. Not tomorrow, NOW! Be prepared for heart ache, 25years is a long time, but there are a lot of women looking for what you offer, a loving, caring relationship. Start now to ready yourself to meet them. Good luck to you. P.S. Your child knows more than you think, kids get it. My own daughter (age24). Said to me when seeing my despair. "dad, I love my mother, but she has never been happy, you tried but you couldn't make her happy, mom will never be happy, YOU CAN DO BETTER!". V, YOU CAN DO BETTER!


Thank you....I have worked hard on myself for the past 10 years. I was 220lbs, I am now 185ilbs. I am 5'11'' in height, and feel attractive. 


The reason I am here at this time is my personal self value has reached a point where I must act. 

Beacuse no affairs or other major issues exist, raising this topic at this time puts me on very solid ground because I am not defending my bad behaviour..

I know she is stunned, because she is seeing an approach from me she has never seen before...i.e. I am prepared to leave her.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I have considered this for many times.....but I have no evidense that she was abused in any way.

I know her father was very controlling of her mother, and she likes to have the upper hand...like sitting at the top of the table...silly stuff, but shee needs to feel in control


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I am in the same boat at you. Her reasons are, to put it bluntly, utterly irrelevant. If hasn't seen fit to change or so much as approach a way to discuss what the issue is, in a decade, and make no mistake, people who insist on being miserable that long like being miserable, she's likely not going to.

My blushing bride was always pretty stand-offish. Some would say a cold fish. Sex or any form of intimacy of any kind is not something she ever liked or wanted or enjoyed. Why is that? I honestly don't care. I don't care if she hates men or is gay or is damaged goods or it's a physical handicap or she was abducted by space aliens. Don't care. We're all adults, either she's going to move forward or she won't. And 'won't' has a harsh finality, no? 'I won't and you can't make me'. 

I don't see that changing. I don't see threats of separation as any long run fix.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

Hoosier said:


> V: hardest thing I am still learning, you can only control yourself! As things stand she sees you and all you do as not having any value, U are not worth effort on her part. No amount of wishing is going to make her change, only hope you have is to doing something major to wake her up, which is why I voted to separate now. Either she will come out of her fog or she won't. I was married 30 years, the last three years I experienced no intimacy, I was miserable. Then I got lucky, my wife had an affair and suddenly I was spurred to action. I lost weight, worked out like a monster, gave up tv and went back to church. Now 15 months later, I have a great,loving relationship with a lady who is interested in my feelings, needs and desires. The sex is AWESOME, but just as important the time we spend together is fun filled, exciting, and flys by. I would advise you to immediately start working on you. Not tomorrow, NOW! Be prepared for heart ache, 25years is a long time, but there are a lot of women looking for what you offer, a loving, caring relationship. Start now to ready yourself to meet them. Good luck to you. P.S. Your child knows more than you think, kids get it. My own daughter (age24). Said to me when seeing my despair. "dad, I love my mother, but she has never been happy, you tried but you couldn't make her happy, mom will never be happy, YOU CAN DO BETTER!". V, YOU CAN DO BETTER!


Hoosier: Awesome update! I followed your thread. Vitality, take Hoosier's words to heart.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

You should have separated a long time ago.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Vitality,

What are you most leaning toward right now?


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I am very mixed currently...

The joy and freedom to explore a new relationship lights me up ...but the shared history( as painful as it is) with my wife , and loss of out interdependence and the possibility of a shared future, I find sad.....because no matter what I love my wife, it's just I feel I have no more to give ..

I believe she needs to show real fight to keep me ...or it's over . In the past few weeks when I started these discussion with her..I expected her to open up , but alas I get a list of things that I need to do to make her feel loved ...

So I don't know right now ...she has asked for a few weeks to figure it out herself ...as she is currently setback by my new approach
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

...


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Sounds like you are trying to get a love she isn't willing to give. 

I doubt she'll change now. She has had how long to change? 25 years? And she still hasn't? She is just stringing you along until your drive completely dies and you decide "Well, my drive is dead. Might as well stick it out with this old miserable wife. Not like I would get anything out of being single again." 

Sounds like you are deciding to be all nice and give her time to figure herself out, hoping maybe she'll come around. 

Here is a hint:
She has herself figured out. She has for the past 25 years. 
If she wanted you sexually, you wouldn't be here. 

See where I am heading with this?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

At some point you have to just throw in the towel. 25 years is probably a bit past that point. I suppose there's always a chance that this will wake her up, but if that happens I'd have her on a pretty short leash.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

> So I don't know right now ...she has asked for a few weeks to figure it out herself ...as she is currently setback by my new approach


She wont figure out anything until she is presented with the possibility of things changing. instead of "to figure it out herself" should be replaced with "until you give up and the status quo continues"



> but alas I get a list of things that I need to do to make her feel loved ...


Give me a break! She is worried about what you have to do to make her feel loved? What about what she needs to do to make you feel loved? She is just gaming you.
Oh, and the "I love my wife" thing. Totally get that! Even after her infidelity, I still love my wife. She is the love of my life, started dating her at 17 and was 51 when she divorced me last year. However, she has so dishonered me and our marriage, forced me to be on my own (she filed for D one day after I discovered the affair, we were divorced in 82 days.) that I reluctantly struck out on my own. I did not work for 9 months, except for on myself. It has been hard, and some days still seems unbearable. But I have had more joy in the last 6 months than I had the last 10 years of my marriage. You just gotta get you some of that!


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

A trial separation would be the best thing. Decide who leaves, and when you will see your child. Also decide if you will sleep together or not during the separation. It's a very healthy thing to have time apart a re-assess the whole marriage. It has to be torn down if there is any chance of it being re-built. A 3 or 6 month period is reasonable.

This situation needs a drastic change in order to be resolved one way or another.

And no your time was not wasted, making a home together, raising a child together, having companionship, is not a waste.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

And since when is marriage about "i will do x for you BUT ONLY if you do y for me."


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

An update....

My wife is fundamentally a good person, a good home maker and dedicated mother, and with the exception of the intimacy problems, has stood by my side for the 25 years. 

Last night she said she felt sad, down and lonely. She feels that I am pulling away.

I said that unless we have a complete marriage, then we have very serious decisions to make. 

Also, on many occasions during the marriage she raised the prospect of divorce (I never raised it until now). She admitted that it was just a cry to get the relationship fixed, she never seriously considered divorce. But to her the relationship being fixed, is me being focused on her. However this focus and deep love only sustains itself with a truly intimate relationship.

At one level I see the woman I have loved for the past 25 years feeling isolated and lost, this hurts but I have seen this before, where I ride in and try to make her happy...but I still end up feeling empty inside. 

She has still not said that she really loves me and wants to make me happy, and is prepared to put herself out to do so....this approach from her would change everything, I become would be putty in her hands (and arms)

At this stage I am beginning to feel guilty for putting her through this trauma, but also I am very fearful that if the problems with intimacy are not seriously addressed now, they never will be


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

vitality said:


> An update....
> 
> My wife is fundamentally a good person, a good home maker and dedicated mother, and with the exception of the intimacy problems, has stood by my side for the 25 years.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update.

Has she ever had some sort of psychological evaluation done on her?

Her latest move sounds manipulative to me. She knows exactly how you will respond.
But it seems she does not see herself as part of the problem.
IMO.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

She has never been psychologically evaluated.....she refuses counselling .

Her line is I would run rings around the therapist and paint her in a poor light ...

I agree, she sees it as my problem to fix, (because I mastrabate) ....

one phrase I have never heard her say in 25 years is "I am sorry"....she had a great need to be right .


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She feels you are pulling away? What's she been doing for the past 10 years? It's a miracle and a testament to the fortitude of man that you even come home every day. She's not a good person. She's a user. She's an abuser. She's self-serving in the extreme. Denied emotional and sexual support, you've been assigned the position of ATM machine for a quarter of a century. Your child is almost an adult. You still have a sliver of sexual life before you. You can waste it begging, hoping, and cajoling a lifeless vine to produce the rare grape or you can dump her and find a thriving vineyard with an abundance of fruit. You can still be buddies with her after a divorce. In truth, she divorced you on your wedding night and every day she has deliberately kept herself unavailable since.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I see your point ...I would find it difficult to beliveve that she is malicious or deliberately ccontrolling .

I think it's more likely she had deep intimacy issues, and found a nice guy to take care of her and provide a safe haven, 

The reason she must always be right ...is to admit she has deep issues would crumble the protection mechanism she has built around herself..

Focusing on my weaknesses (and I do have a lot...I am human..and a man) gives her validity that the problem is mine ...and gives her ammunition to keep focused on me..

Simply put...no matter what the issues are, in 10 years sharing the same bed, she would at least on a few occasion want to be intimate...

I have made about 4 or 5 advances every months...always rejected (or non responsive)


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> Has she ever had some sort of psychological evaluation done on her?
> 
> ...


I dont think she needs a psych eval....

I think both people arent playing their part.

Vitality, you cant stay stuck doing the same thing you have been doing. 

And she sounds depressed....
And btw therapists don't think in terms of who is wrong and who is right. When you go to therapy, the therapist isn't going to work with you from the mindset that one partner is the bad guy and the other is the victim.

Go on psychology today . Com 
Look in the therapist directory for the credentials LMFT
Make the appointment and tell your wife she can join you if she would like. If she says no, say "ok" and just simply walk away and go on your own. I bet this act in an of itself will shake up the dynamic you guys have going on right now.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree that we are both not playing our parts, this for me is the hardest pill to swallow....the fingers pointing at me are why I accepted and tolerated this for so long. Probably because I am wired to please and don’t like confrontation. After rejection it was easier to masturbate and hope next week it will be better. 

As the saying goes...”keep doing the same things and expecting different results...lunacy” 

Twice in the past (in 2002 & in 2008) I went to a therapist on my own, she had no interest in going. On both occasions my wife refused to go, and I personally got a lot out of each process, as I became internally strong and confident. It’s this personal journey that has me confronting my wife with this problem currently.

I suggested last week that we seek counselling, and she is dead again the idea. I believe that they must be underlying issues that she has and never discussed with anyone.

Another fact about my wife, she is a perfectionist. Everything she does is done exactly right. Our home is like a show house.


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## indiecat (Sep 24, 2012)

Well is she is a perfectionist then she may not want to lose her marriage. 
You need to lay it on the line with her. Tell her you need to talk.

Pour out some wine and say that we BOTH have needs that have to be met to make this marriage work. Then you both write down 3 - 5 things that you require to feel loved. Then you exchange papers. This is called dialoging. She may think it is silly but ask her to bear with you and do the exercise. Tell her to write down everything she needs to feel loved........men and woman are not mind readers. And you do the same. (Include frequency of sex, so that as a perfectionist she knows exactly how often this should be, whether weekly, every two weeks, whatever will seem like a reasonable comprimise). Worth a shot! Maybe by encouraging her to write down HER needs (while you do the same) will get her piqued. I guess you could introduce it that way, especially given her personality.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree that we are both not playing our parts, this for me is the hardest pill to swallow....the fingers pointing at me are why I accepted and tolerated this for so long. Probably because I am wired to please and don’t like confrontation. After rejection it was easier to masturbate and hope next week it will be better. 

As the saying goes...”keep doing the same things and expecting different results...lunacy” 

Twice in the past (in 2002 & in 2008) I went to a therapist on my own, she had no interest in going. On both occasions my wife refused to go, and I personally got a lot out of each process, as I became internally strong and confident. It’s this personal journey that has me confronting my wife with this problem currently.

I suggested last week that we seek counselling, and she is dead again the idea. I believe that they must be underlying issues that she has and never discussed with anyone.
Another fact about my wife, she is a perfectionist. Everything she does is done exactly right. Our home is like a show house.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Have you asked her what YOU need to do to put this marriage back on track?

These problems are rarely one-sided and I'm guessing you bear some responsibility in this (other than letting it go on for so long).

I was going to suggest marriage counseling but the fact you have gone to a therapist and she refuses to go (my scenario, too) indicates that you have made an effort. However, going to a therapist who only hears your side of the story isn't very effective in solving a marriage problem between TWO people.

At this point, you should point to (a) her refusal to go to marriage counseling, (b) her bringing up divorce in the past and (c) her mention about separating and indications that she's not interested in saving the marriage and make your exit plans.

This will either shock her into action or just start the ball rolling to where it will eventually end anyway.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Your wife needs an ultimatum. Either she joins you in fixing this problem or you divorce.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It's hard to believe it's deliberate on her part? Does she have a vagina? A mouth? A hand? She has functioning ears that hear you ask her to go to counseling or ask for intimacy? She has eyes that have seen your distress for 25 years and didn't give a flaming rat's behind? Other than yourself, is there any other responsibility or obligation in her life that she consistently ignores? Of course, it's deliberate! My limbs respond as my brain commands them to. I suspect her's works the same. She doesn't participate as a sexual partner because you allow her to remain in the marriage without doing so. There's no down-side for being an evil, abusive, withholder. She's getting something from the marriage (probably material support and maybe a little emotional security). It's all based on fraud. She calls herself a wife. She wears a ring. Her name probably appears on deeds and joint accounts. If she contributes financially, she's a roommate. If she doesn't, she's a slave owner. This will go on as long as you tolerate it. I figure she'd have three options....1. Screw her head back on and start playing wife like she promised 25 years ago. 2. Get a divorce. 3. You agree to continue the ruse of a marriage but you are free to find sexual and emotional fulfillment elsewhere.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

V,
The fact that your wife will not attend counseling with you speaks volumes to me. Whatever the reason, her refusal to work on your marriage is something that you may not have any control over. The only thing you can do is to let her know of the consequences of not attending counseling and working on improving the marriage and if that fails, be prepared to follow through.
Sorry...but 10 years of absolutely no sex is in no way, shape, form or fashion acceptable. 
_"Honey, I love you very much and want our marriage to work. I don't know why you have such an aversion to going to counseling with me but at this stage of the game, that is the only way I can see to save our marriage. This is my last ditch effort. I am asking you for the sake of our marriage and the 25 years of history together to help me work on our marriage through counseling. If you do not agree to this, then I see no alternative but separation and divorce." _...*and be prepared to follow through with this.*


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Btw, people do have sex at 50


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

My dear OP.

Take stock in your situation. She has yet to make any move to improve the relationship. You have tolerated this abuse for sometime. I must diagree with one of theother posters who said a therapist would not say "you are wrong and he is right" Her statements that people your age don't have sex and your masturbation is sick would definitely get a response from a qualified mental heath professional. But, the real issue here is you are trying to control her and get her to do something. YOU CAN'T! the only thing you can do is control yorself.

Stop permitting her from making your life miserable. She want some time. OK, condition that on marriage counseling. Period. If she won't than file for divorce. Perhaps that will wake her up. If not, it puts you that mich closer to finding a woman who will love you in all the deminsion encompassed by the word.

Good luck.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Last night we had more discussions ..

My wife believes I have an agenda because I keep raising the intimacy issue ...now everyday.

She believes that I only want sex and don't appreciate that a woman needs to wooed and romanced before sex is possible.

She believes as she created a nice home and made efforts for birthdays etc ...I was busy focused on my career

She said on the few occasion that we had sex she was left unsatisfied as I didn't do ant of the things she liked, and when she would tell me , my response was that "why are you giving me instructions"

I massage her feet most evenings...as asked why she won't do mine ...her repines "because they are heavy and hard"

At this stage u have 2 very clear option ..

(1) let's the relationship implode on this topic ...which will happen after Christmas as it will be clear to both of us that it's not working ...
(2) I woo my wife , but treat it as a new relationship ..this would include unexpected flowers, holding hand, dating, being attentive to her needs ...and hopefully true intimacy would follow ...

At this stage it's day by day...personally I feel lonely and very distracted from other daily duties..like work, where I find it hard to concentrate this week
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I get it! Flowers equal wild monkey sex! Why didn't I see that? So simple!


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

I have considered this very carefully....and I can't get away from the fact that I trurly and deeply love my wife (though the lack of imtimacy frustrates the hell out of me)...

I will be starting a new post on what I am doing to bring my marriage to level never experienced...I may fail or I may succeed..but I will have given it a good shot....


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

I say try the second option for a bit. See what happens.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

vitality said:


> I have considered this very carefully....and I can't get away from the fact that I trurly and deeply love my wife (though the lack of imtimacy frustrates the hell out of me)...
> 
> I will be starting a new post on what I am doing to bring my marriage to level never experienced...I may fail or I may succeed..but I will have given it a good shot....


You really do love this woman!

If you want to try things from a different perspective, then that's ok. 
Maybe it will work and she will respond positively.
I know its hard to let go after so many years.

But this is your marriage.
I agree with the above poster,
Try what you suggested [ starting a post etc] for a bit and see how it works.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She's stalling. Just grasping at straws to prolong the status quo.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Wooing is just another hoop for you to jump through. When you do, she will wind up setting the bar higher and higher. You can try it through the holidays to see if it has any impact. It won't.

Sounds like you're doing all the giving here. Making all the effort. You've trained her to be a princess. Entitled to everything in the relationship. Working for nothing. 

Know that you are not in the wrong here. Your requests are not unreasonable. 

I would do a two-pronged approach on this. You will make active attempt to woo - as she requests. In return, she will go to marriage counselor with you on a weekly basis. If she doesn't want/can't do this, is there anything else she can do that would demonstrate a commitment to making things better?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Do you go to work only on days you are "wooed"? Did you agree to be a husband every day for the rest of your life, regardless of how you felt or did you agree to be a husband only on days your spouse blew powder sugar up your backside? If she's content enough to keep stuffing her face with marital bread, she's content enough to participate in the marriage. By her own admission, this has been deliberate withholding.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Well, maybe he is giving her everything he THINKS she wants.

What she wants and what he thinks she wants could be quite different.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Missy, come on. 25 YEARS! It's far past time to put out or get out.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

I think they both got comfortable with living parallel lives.
Somebody has to do something really different and i don't see why it has to be calling it quits


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Agreed.....I feel I own it one last decent shot to make it work....but my approache must be very different to before...where I create an edge of expectation that she can't avoid


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

Our situations are VERY similar. I've spent the past 4 years trying to fix things and I can tell you this; unless SHE wants to fix things and amdit her part in this and expresses a willingness to work on herself too, it ain't gonna happen. And everything you said is she thinks it's you that's broken, not her.

I had to get hit in the head with a hammer here on TER multiple times before I realized my wife will never change and she's got me right where she wants me. And all that time I just thought she was incapable.

I voted separate.


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## Cre8ify (Feb 1, 2012)

> Well, maybe he is giving her everything he THINKS she wants.
> 
> What she wants and what he thinks she wants could be quite different.


Easy enough to ask her. I did, my wife didn't know of any unmet needs. Fine as far as she is concerned. She spent her whole life assembling us to be this way, what's the problem?



> Btw, people do have sex at 50


Yes they do and I have a friggin scorecard to prove it...or disprove it...depending on your POV.



> where I create an edge of expectation that she can't avoid


Except she may say "this was good for 25 years and now it no longer works because you unilaterally decide it"?

Or, claim it is some type of bait and switch and you always knew the way it was with the two of you.

Or, she may accuse you of staking out this utterly unreasonable position so you can bail on the marriage.

Or, there may be some missing trust that comes to light..you not trusting truly in her love for you...she not trusting you are not just providing her with inauthentic emotional support to gain physical sex.

Welcome to my parallel universe.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I predict that very soon you will hear the words "well it doesn't count because you're only doing these things to get sex".


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I predict that very soon you will hear the words "well it doesn't count because you're only doing these things to get sex".


This same thought ran through my head. Hope I'm wrong.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Time will tell ...I think what my wife is looking for is sincerity ..she has to feel that my renewed interest is about the relationship ...and not just my sexual needs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Good luck on your journey.

I have to say.... I would also want a bit of "proof" that after so many years, you do actually love her and want to be with her, not just house mates.

(why do you?)

I'm curious... because how does someone just suddenly "get over" 15 years of resentment and absolutely no sex and decide it's time to fix things? A lot of us on here could use the wisdom ourselves.

What magically changed in your life?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

So, you're getting "I might do X if you'll do Z". That's a bunch of B.S. and it's not consistent with the terms of the marriage. You haven't been getting "Z" but you've been faithfully doing all she has asked for 25 years. She is the one who abandoned her marital vows. It's completely her choice that you've had a roommate instead of a wife. She can get with the program or hit the curb. Her account is 25 years in arrears. She wants to make more withdrawals? She's given you zero indications that she is interested in participting in a sexual union and she's given you 365 x 25 indications that she likes celibacy.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Wow you are some terminally nice guy. 10 years is ridiculous brother. Your wife has major hangups and is downright delusional with her expectations. I'm 48 and have sex with my wife regularly. Most of my friends have sex with their wives as well. She doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. Initiate a divorce and go out and find yourself an nice women while your willie still works. Your deserve it because clearly your a damm saint. Your wife is broken and you will never be able to fix her. It's not your responsibility to begin with.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> Wow you are some terminally nice guy. 10 years is ridiculous brother. Your wife has major hangups and is downright delusional with her expectations. I'm 48 and have sex with my wife regularly. Most of my friends have sex with their wives as well. She doesn't have a clue what she's talking about. Initiate a divorce and go out and find yourself an nice women while your willie still works. Your deserve it because clearly your a damm saint. Your wife is broken and you will never be able to fix her. It's not your responsibility to begin with.


Ya.....but i think him being a "terminally nice guy" & a "saint" is only making It all the more unlikely that she will want him sexually.

I think he should try to work on that and see what happens.


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## Corum (Jun 7, 2012)

vitality said:


> Time will tell ...I think what my wife is looking for is sincerity ..she has to feel that my renewed interest is about the relationship ...and not just my sexual needs
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


By this statement you are implying that till now your wife didn't think you were sincere. However I am sure you were.

You should not have to do anything special to get physical intimacy from your wife. If you are a good man and love her and support her that is enough. If she loves you that is...

She has you trapped chewing off your own legs to fix a problem with yourself that probably does not exist.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

"She has you trapped chewing off your own legs to fix a problem with yourself that probably does not exist."

I like this quote from "CORUM"...this is exactly how I feel


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

Has she ever had an orgasm?


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

missymrs80 said:


> Has she ever had an orgasm?


NO...she never had an orgasm as far as I am aware..
She also claims to have never mastrabated...

Tonight she feels very vunerable...as she feels is is being tested and if she doesn't meet the requirements she is out....(Which is not true...the truth would be I am out, but she would have te house etc etc...)

She did reluctantly agree to but "His Needs / Her Needs"....lets hope it breaks the ice


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

vitality said:


> NO...she never had an orgasm as far as I am aware..
> She also claims to have never mastrabated...
> 
> Tonight she feels very vunerable...as she feels is is being tested and if she doesn't meet the requirements she is out....(Which is not true...the truth would be I am out, but she would have te house etc etc...)
> ...


I hope to god you didn't tell her that if you guys do split she can keep the house. Hate to say it but if you did, you may have just dug your own grave.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

missymrs80 said:


> I hope to god you didn't tell her that if you guys do split she can keep the house. Hate to say it but if you did, you may have just dug your own grave.


I don't agree. She's his wife, she is obligated to please him as he is obligated to please her. 

I would not want a husband without a sex drive. It's all a part of being married. My husband fully supports me financially, the least I can do for him is fulfill his needs passionately. I will never be able to work again and I fully depend on my husbands support. He is so willing to do this also.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I don't agree. She's his wife, she is obligated to please him as he is obligated to please her.
> 
> I would not want a husband without a sex drive. It's all a part of being married. My husband fully supports me financially, the least I can do for him is fulfill his needs passionately. I will never be able to work again and I fully depend on my husbands support. He is so willing to do this also.


I don't think you understood what i meant.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

V, 
You have absolutely no clue how to do this. You are playing the: I am begging you (hand), instead of the 'unsell' hand. 

Begging doesn't work. 

The unsell sometimes does.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Yes.maybe I gave no clue ...I get clouded because I love my wife ..and feel for her (too much )

I know she us under immense pressure at the moment ...that is good as she is beginning to wake up to the fact that I could leave if this is not sorted out...for years she lived with the certainty that I would never leave her ...

Lately I have been away a weekend each month for work ....this gives me (and her) a little independance
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

am currently reading "No more Mr nice Guy"...One concern with that book ....it can have you focused on fixing yourself....which is all important....but I could end up give my wife a free pass on our issues...

All very nice here today now.....My wife is snuggling up, and beginning to reach out and touch me..

She did say that her friends also had bad sex lives.....I responded we are not them, and we deserved better

She also read some of "His Needs / Her Needs" on line...and said that she understood that sex was a primary male need, but her needs had to be satisfied also....I agreed...so a little progress


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

vitality said:


> am currently reading "No more Mr nice Guy"...One concern with that book ....it can have you focused on fixing yourself....which is all important....but I could end up give my wife a free pass on our issues...
> 
> All very nice here today now.....My wife is snuggling up, and beginning to reach out and touch me..
> 
> ...


She will respond to the changes you make. She may, however, respond in a way that to pull you back to the same dynamic you guys were previously in.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

True ....but I will ensure that will not be repeated
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

missymrs80 said:


> She will respond to the changes you make. She may, however, respond in a way that to pull you back to the same dynamic you guys were previously in.


:iagree:

I didn't even look at it from that angle!
But the chances are high.


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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

She's never had an orgasm ... I hope you are giving that all the thought that it deserves with regards to why you both have a problem on your hands. 

There are many likely reasons why she hasn't had an orgasm - but that FACT that she hasn't explains a lot of the problems. Why would someone who doesn't understand the pleasurable benefits of an intimate encounter want to have that encounter? In fact, it sounds like way earlier in your relationship, when sex did occur, she was left unsatisfied. What was your response to that? What did you do to remedy it? Sex is a two-way street for sure, but often the man must lead. You might not like it, but it's the truth. You sound like a loving man that has taken care of your family - but houses and cars and paychecks don't make up for a lack of sexual intimacy. Clearly, you see that. But you are still focused on you and what you have missed. And that is fair. But she has missed on a lot too. And, contrary to others posting, I imagine that much of her anger and coldness toward you has to do with her perceiving you as having let her down as well. It's very sad and I'm sorry that you have both suffered that. 

Having said that, I think the fact that she refuses counseling is a huge problem and short-sighted on her part. It's part of her need to hold the control and her fear that she will be held as responsible for the problems as you. I would not move forward in this reparation on your own. Your life depends on it (if you fear a lonely life wasted in a lonely marriage as originally posted). So, now that you are having a bit of positive communication with your wife, I would state to her that you want to go to couple's counseling. That it is non-negotiable for you that this happen or you will have to leave her. And I would stand by that. I don't see how you are trusting any possible change without any serious hard work on both your parts. Laying around snuggling is nice, but you have too long a history of dysfunction to delude yourselves into thinking some snuggles and basic conversations will fix it.

You were kicking yourself in your first post for having been passive all those years. You are being passive now.

By the way, sounds like she is deeply financially dependent. It's possible she doesn't love you, but she has to stay in order to not sacrifice financial security. You said so yourself, even if not quite that way. Have you considered making it clear to her that finances will be split evenly and that she would end up financially alright? I only say that, because if her motivation for changing your mind about leaving has nothing to do with love, you will know it if she realizes she would get half. If she feels like she could leave you and be financially okay, would she leave you? (or let you leave?) What would you pay for that knowledge? If that were the case, your answer as to what to do (leave or stay) certainly would become clearer? What price freedom (of mind)?

I'm not saying that she doesn't love you at all and is a money-grubber or anything. It's clear that she loves you deeply as the partner and friend that you have clearly been to each other all these years. The love that you have for her pours through the pages as does her love for you (yes, really). But, from the very beginning, it was "friendship love" and you have tried for too long to make it into something more. That has got to be so frustrating and confusing for both of you. Maybe it's time to let go. And, as for finances, she deserves to share in what you have built all these years, just as you benefited all these years from her good homemaking and solid partnership in life (intimacy aside). Her being worried about finances if you leave wouldn't make her a bad person - it's a real world legitimate concern that anyone would have. My point is only to say that you should be careful that's not her only (main) reason for still being with you. You bought it up - so you must've wondered (even if unconsciously).

Good luck. And, again, don't get passive (oh, and passive is not sexy anyway - if you've been acting like a doormat or victim all these years, that couldn't have helped her libido!) Get some balls and make some tough choices. And stop feeling sorry for her - she's not a piece of china - she's a person. And maybe she will be happier too with the next guy that comes along and rocks her world and shows her what multiple orgasms feel like. I don't say that to be cruel (sounds cruel, I know), I say that because you act like she would be so ruined without you there to take care of her. She'll be fine. And she might be better off. So might you.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

FIRSTLY, THANK YOU FOR SUCH A COMPREHENSIVE WELL THOUGHT THROUGH RESPONSE. 

MY RESPONSES ARE IN CAPITALS SO I YOU CAN SEE THEN DIFFERENTLY FROM YOUR RESPONSE. 

he's never had an orgasm ... I hope you are giving that all the thought that it deserves with regards to why you both have a problem on your hands. 

There are many likely reasons why she hasn't had an orgasm - but that FACT that she hasn't explains a lot of the problems. Why would someone who doesn't understand the pleasurable benefits of an intimate encounter want to have that encounter?

YES SHE DOESN’T UNDERSTAND....SHE TALKS ABOUT SEX AS IF ITS HARD WORK AND MESSEY...”ALL THAT PUSHING AND SHOVING, FOR WHAT?...SO THE MAN IS SATISFIED” 

In fact, it sounds like way earlier in your relationship, when sex did occur, she was left unsatisfied. What was your response to that? What did you do to remedy it? Sex is a two-way street for sure, but often the man must lead. You might not like it, but it's the truth. You sound like a loving man that has taken care of your family - but houses and cars and pay checks don't make up for a lack of sexual intimacy. Clearly, you see that. But you are still focused on you and what you have missed. And that is fair. But she has missed on a lot too. And, contrary to others posting, I imagine that much of her anger and coldness toward you has to do with her perceiving you as having let her down as well. It's very sad and I'm sorry that you have both suffered that.

THESE ARE MY WIFE WORDS ALSO “I FELT TOTALLY DISSATIFIED WITH SEX, WHY WOULD I DO SOMETHING I DON’T LIKE”. 

Having said that, I think the fact that she refuses counselling is a huge problem and short-sighted on her part. It's part of her need to hold the control and her fear that she will be held as responsible for the problems as you. 

HER WORDS ON COUNSELLING ARE “YOU WILL TELL THEM WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO HEAR, AND I WILL BE LEFT LOOKING LIKE THE CAUSE OF THIS...UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES AM I GOING TO COUNSELLING, I WOULD SEPERATE BEFORE I GO TO COUNSELLING”. I HAVE GONE TO COUNSELLING TWICE ON THIS ISSUE, AND MY WIFE DIDN’T RESPOND TO THE COMMUNICATION ATTEMPTS I MADE, ON THE GROUNDS THAT I WAS ONLY INTERESTED IN MY OWN SATISFACTION. 

I would not move forward in this reparation on your own. Your life depends on it (if you fear a lonely life wasted in a lonely marriage as originally posted). So, now that you are having a bit of positive communication with your wife, I would state to her that you want to go to couple's counselling. That it is non-negotiable for you that this happen or you will have to leave her. 

THE RESON THINGS ARE VERY DIFFEREST NOW IS THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I AM DISCUSSING LEAVING HER. SHE WAS TOTALLY SHOCKED WHEN I TOLD HER A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT I WOULD MOVE TO THE SPARE ROOM, AND WE SHOULD TELL FAMILY AND FRIENDS THAT WE ARE SEPERATING. ALSO, THAT I WANT TO START DATING FAIRLY QUICKLY...THIS SHATTERED HER WORLD AND SENT HER INTO A DEEP SADDNESS. 

And I would stand by that. I don't see how you are trusting any possible change without any serious hard work on both your parts. Laying around snuggling is nice, but you have too long a history of dysfunction to delude yourselves into thinking some snuggles and basic conversations will fix it.

You were kicking yourself in your first post for having been passive all those years. You are being passive now.

THIS IS A MASSIVE RISK THAT I AM BEING PASSIVE NOW, IT'S UP TO ME TO KEEP THE PRESSURE ON. THAT IS WHY I AM WRITING ON THIS SITE, SO I GET THE ENCOURAGEMENT TO DO THE RIGHT THING.
THINGS HAVE IMPROVED SOMEWHAT..
-	WE ARE CHATTING, CUDDLING AND OUR FRIENDSHIP IS BACK
-	I AM OPENILY EXPRESSING MY WANTS
-	SHE HAS BEGUN TO DISCUSS HER FEARS
-	WE HAVE ORDERED “HIS NEEDS / HER NEEDS” AND HAVE AGREED TO READ IT TOGETHER
-	I AM READING (SECRETLY) “NO MORE MT NICE GUY” AND “THE MARRIED MAN’S SEX PRIMER” 

LAST EVENING MY WIFE TOLD ME THAT SHE IS EXPREMELY DRY IN HER VAGINA (SHE IS STATING THE MENOPAUSE). SHE SAID SHE TRIED TO INSERT A SANITARY TOWEL TO HELP WITH LITTLE LEAKAGES AND SHE BLEED A LITTLE. 

SHE ASKED FOR ME TO GET HER A VIBRATOR AND SOME JELLY SO SHE CAN PRACTICE AND PREPARE. 

SHE ALSO EXPRESSED A CONCERN THAT IF IT DOESN’T WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. I SAID WE SHOULD SEE A COUNSELLOR, AND SHE REPEATED THAT'S A DEAL BREAKER, AND SHE WOULD RATHER SEPERATE THAN SEE A COUNSELLOR.

SO TODAY WE WILL BE CHECKING VIBRATORS ON THE INTERNET AND FINDING A SUITABLE ONE. 

By the way, sounds like she is deeply financially dependent. It's possible she doesn't love you, but she has to stay in order to not sacrifice financial security. You said so yourself, even if not quite that way. Have you considered making it clear to her that finances will be split evenly and that she would end up financially alright? 

YES TIME AND TIME AGAIN. IN FACT I HAVE TOLD HER (SOME HERE SAID I WAS WRONG), THAT SHE WOULD HAVE OUR HOME DEBT FREE, (WE JUST HAVE A PROPERTY TO SELL TO CLEAR ALL DEBTS...WE ARE NOT EXCESSIVELY IN DEBT).

HER CONCERN IS HER WEEKLY INCOME AND LIVING STANDARD. WITH SEPERATION THAT WOULD DROP FOR BOTH OF US, BUT IT WOULD BE A BETTER LIFE.

ALSO I HAVE ENCOURAGED HER TO GET A JOB. SHE HAS NOT WORKED IN 13 YEARS, BUT IS WELL QUALIFIED, AND AN EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT WOMAN. ON TUESDAY I WILL BE CONNECTING HER WITH RECRUITEMNT AGENCIES THAT I KNOW. 

IN SUMMARY SHE NEEDS TO MAKE THE DECISION THAT IS RIGHT FOR HER KNOWING THAT SHE HAS A REAL CHOICE, THUS IF SHE STAYS AND WORKS ON THE ISSUES, ITS BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO. 

PERSONALLY I HAVE SERIOUSLY DOUBTS ABOUT IF SHE REALLY LOVES ME. I HAVE HAD THESE FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE RELATIONSHIP. THAT PROBABLY WHY I TRIED SO HARD TO PROVIDE...FUNNY BUT I PROVIDED EVERYTHING EXCEPT MYSELF. 

I only say that, because if her motivation for changing your mind about leaving has nothing to do with love, you will know it if she realizes she would get half. If she feels like she could leave you and be financially okay, would she leave you? (or let you leave?) What would you pay for that knowledge? If that were the case, your answer as to what to do (leave or stay) certainly would become clearer? What price freedom (of mind)?

I'm not saying that she doesn't love you at all and is a money-grubber or anything. It's clear that she loves you deeply as the partner and friend that you have clearly been to each other all these years. The love that you have for her pours through the pages as does her love for you (yes, really). But, from the very beginning, it was "friendship love" and you have tried for too long to make it into something more. That has got to be so frustrating and confusing for both of you. Maybe it's time to let go. And, as for finances, she deserves to share in what you have built all these years, just as you benefited all these years from her good homemaking and solid partnership in life (intimacy aside). Her being worried about finances if you leave wouldn't make her a bad person - it's a real world legitimate concern that anyone would have. My point is only to say that you should be careful that's not her only (main) reason for still being with you. You bought it up - so you must've wondered (even if unconsciously).

Good luck. And, again, don't get passive (oh, and passive is not sexy anyway - if you've been acting like a doormat or victim all these years, that couldn't have helped her libido!) Get some balls and make some tough choices. And stop feeling sorry for her - she's not a piece of china - she's a person. And maybe she will be happier too with the next guy that comes along and rocks her world and shows her what multiple orgasms feel like. I don't say that to be cruel (sounds cruel, I know), I say that because you act like she would be so ruined without you there to take care of her. She'll be fine. And she might be better off. So might you.

ANOTHER DISCUSSION WE HAD LAST NIGHT WAS EXACTLY THIS...IF WE MEET OTHER PEOPLE WOULD THEY ROCK OUR WORLDS?....
SO AS I SEE IT, 
-	BUY THE BOOKS AND READ TOGETHER. 
-	BUY THE VIBRATOR AND LET HER PRACTICE. 
-	KEEP THE COMMUNICATIONS LINES OPEN.
-	MAKE SURE SHE IS CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT HALF THE ASSET ARE HERS
-	SUPPORT HER IN GETTING BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE
-	IN JANUARY IF THE GREEN SHUTS OF INTIMACY ARE NOT ARRIVING....THEN AGREE TO SPLIT


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I am sorry for you. this reaaly appear to be herman hermits song "Second verse, same as the first". Did you actually read "No more Mr Nice Guy"? Your wife has major problems. She won't go to counseling because they will tell her she has a problem. Now she can rationalize everything as your problem. She is quite happy to refuse to change beacuse of some "faults" of yours.

Well good luck with your efforts. I see many more years of unhappiness for you.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

HER CONCERN IS HER WEEKLY INCOME AND LIVING STANDARD.
(You are a living ATM machine and nothing more)

"WHY WOULD I DO SOMETHING I DON’T LIKE”. 
(Your needs do not matter in the least to her)

"ALL THAT PUSHING AND SHOVING, FOR WHAT?...SO THE MAN IS SATISFIED” 
(She sees no value in sacrificing or doing for others. If it's not for her, it has no value)

SHE WOULD RATHER SEPERATE THAN SEE A COUNSELLOR.
("SEPARATE", not divorce. Presumably, a separation would leave her with essentially the same lifestyle, the same income. A divorce would permanently diminish her standard of living)

"SHE HAS NOT WORKED IN 13 YEARS, BUT IS WELL QUALIFIED, AND AN EXTREMELY INTELLIGENT WOMAN." 
(She doesn't participate in the bedroom, why should she be a financial partner? You are her cow. You exist to provide her cream. 

Just curious here. What, if any, obligation does she believe she owes as a marital partner? Beyond exchanging oxygen for carbon dioxide, what does she feel she actually has to "do" for her husband? Do you have the right to expect anything at all from her, or is her magical presence reason enough to grant her access to 50% of everything? Every living thing on earth has some role to play. Trees make fruit. Squirrels gather nuts and make more squirrels. What is her reason for breathing? Her threat of a separation isn't a threat at all. It's a historical fact. A separation means you keep the responsibilty for her support but she is relieved of any romantic/sexual/nurturing expectations. Isn't that what you already have? She separated years ago. She just never filed.


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## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

You're cuddling before the sex? You're taking the crumbs and NOT making any progress. That's what she wants you to think. The passenger who thinks his train is moving won't complain about getting to his destination. She is just shaking your cabin, and you are just sitting down mindlessly for the ride.

You better stop cuddling with your wife and making her feel good meanwhile you don't get laid. 

I agree with the other posters. You are still too passive. Stand up for yourself and stay on here for encouragement!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

yep



Interlocutor said:


> You're cuddling before the sex? You're taking the crumbs and NOT making any progress. That's what she wants you to think. The passenger who thinks his train is moving won't complain about getting to his destination. She is just shaking your cabin, and you are just sitting down mindlessly for the ride.
> 
> You better stop cuddling with your wife and making her feel good meanwhile you don't get laid.
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

At some point you have to lay her down and start pulling down her pants. If she says no, fine. But make her say no, And mean it. She has to own her refusal, not pretend like you're making progress.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

This evening my wife dates she feels she it heading into a depression as she feeling her world is falling apart...as I have become demanding...

Today she order a vibrator to help her get comfortable with penetration ..

She also want to get an imdepenatant revenue stream and recognises that she (we) were in a rut....

Over all there is momentum and change taking place...

Time will tell if intimacy is achieved ....but for the sake of both of us ...it must ....otherwise we are looking at other options..

To be fair to her (and my self)...giving it a few weeks (till the new year) to see real progress is reasonable ...as I was dormant for many years ...and only started reclaiming my marriage in the past four weeks ...

If I am her in January and we have not been intimate on at least a few occasions, them I am passive and weak
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Time will tell? MORE time? She's stalling. Just lay her down and do it. Now.


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

Vitality, I'm going to just tell you right now. 

You are stuck in a limbo. I was stuck in the same thing too. 
You got 25 years invested in this woman, and you love her. You cherish her. And you have all these happy memories of the two of you together (but how many memories of sex?)

Trust me, I've been in a similar situation. Stuck in a limbo, and it tears at you. 

Now, you are the textbook example of a nice guy. The door mat nice guy. 

An alpha male wouldn't have stood for this. He would said "Either love me like a wife, or I'll divorce you and find someone that can."

But you are too nice. 
And I honestly, 100% don't believe that you will divorce her by Christmas. You won't divorce her by next Christmas. You won't divorce after 30 years of no sex. I honestly don't believe you will ever divorce her. 
You just keep hoping she'll change her mind. She'll finally realize how much you want to love her, and she'll come to you. 

***SPOILER ALERT***
She isn't going to have sex with you in those upcoming days, weeks, months, years, and decades. 

Listen to me. 
If you want to stop this, you need to file for divorce TOMORROW!!!

Wonder why everyone is telling you the same thing? Yet you keep thinking doing something else will help...
I would have posted this, but you beat me to it!!! YOU DID! But you refuse to change anything!
_Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again yet expecting different results._
So you are insane then. By your own admission, you mut be a lunatic! Because you keep expecting her to love you by doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over again. 
When does this end? When your sex drive gives out because you are 70?

Now, you need to file for divorce tomorrow. And I promise you, if you file for divorce tomorrow, you get love by...well, not by Christmas probably because you have waited too long, but by January, you will start getting some love I can promise you that. 

Want to know how I know? And how everyone else on this board knows?
Because your wife, will realize once you tell her "I've filed for divorce," That she needs to:
Start loving you the way a wife should love her husband 
Or she can see what the real world has to offer her as a single middle aged woman. 

Until you do that, she won't love you, because she has no intention or interest to. Until She sees you are following through on your threats. 

Your wife doesn't fear you doing anything because so far, you have shown us and her, that you won't! 
Why do people fear the wolf? Not because he has giant canine teeth. But because he will use those giant canine teeth! 

Until you show her that you are serious and will use those giant canine teeth (DIVORCE), you won't be getting any love from her or any woman. 

And if she refuses to love you, then you divorce her (which is LONG overdue) and move on to someone that can love you. 

Will this be hard? 
Yes. 

But right now, you are living with someone that sees you as nothing more than an ATM that is having some technical difficulties. She is just waiting for those technical difficulties to fix itself. 
You want to continue living like that?


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

No I am not a Nice guy ..I am a dishonest and weak guy. But I dud speak the truth for 25 years hoping thinks would fix them selves ...because it was easier 

I love my wife ...she is now heading for depression because her safe world has crumbled ....she may hope that my pressure for intimacy will go away in time ....my job is to keep focused on intimacy. ..

We are in uncharted waters as I have never asked for a divorce before (I now have ) ...and I everyday I raise my needs for intimacy and if it's not fixed we will must divorce ...
This has her under enormous pressure currently ...on the pasted I would have backed off, because I love her ...but because I love her I must keep the pressure on 

She has orders a vibrator as she wants to practice and get comfortable with penetration ..she has agreed to read "His Needs , Her needs" and she has decided to go back to work ...

So because I love her giving her a little time to prepare for intimacy and create a safety net if we divorce I'd only fair....s few months would make a massive difference 

You must remember I was dormant for years, so it only reasonable for both if us to give the marriage one last chance ..

All that said ...you (and other) are right, do something very significant quickly ...

This moral pressure and support is extremely valuable ...thank you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The way to do this is immediate and gradual. You tell her that you are going to touch each other sexually and help each other have an O. You can use the vibrator to help her and she can kiss touch and manually get you to finish. 

Not in a month or two or three. Now. 

If she can't kiss and touch she won't ever want intercourse. And don't go fast, go slow and learn what each other likes. 

She is anxious and that will turn her on to some degree.


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Today my teenager told me that my wife asked him we divorced who would he live with ...my son said he would live with me...
Also my wife asked if we divorced would they mind ...he said no, as a lot of his friends parents are divorced , and that ge us now practically grown up ...

This conversation took place with out my knowledge...my son told me this morning ..

This tells me that my wife is not seriously considering saving the marriage 

I also finished reading "No More Mr Nice Guy"...what a wonderfully insightful books ...I got so much from it ...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

After reading the No More Mr Nice Guy..I have set these goals...
THE LIFE I WANT ....within 3 years (2016)


INTIMACY	
I will have a life partner that enriches me, where I can rest my head and feel safe in presenting the total me to her...total transparency. 

What it feels like..	
I feel nourished both emotionally and physically. 

FRIENDSHIP
I will have a number of male friends, we just hang out together, and be men. That simple.	

what it feels like....
I have friends that I enjoy being with, and seek their company, making me proud to be a strong man.

PERSONAL GROWTH	
I will have completed a Masters Degree and it will have made a significant difference in my life. I continue the journey of self understanding and awareness, always being a aware of where I am. 

What it feels like..
I am proud of my achievements, and comfortable asking for what I want. I am not afraid of life, I am not controlling, and have the strength to take life as it comes....and enjoy it chaotic flow. 

HEALTH & WELLNESS	
I maintain my weight in the 180s llbs range. I am tuned into my mind body and spirit, and nourish all three continually. 
I develop my interest in running, so that it’s a integrated part of my weekly life. 

What it feels like...
I feel better that I have ever felt in my life, and intuitively know I am living my life to its fullest. 

CAREER
I have a career that I totally enjoy, that is fully integrated in to my life and is a source of enrichment.....also I will earn >$200,000 per annum... 

What it feels like..
I see my career as part of who I am, and not just as a job. My career also provides an income that allows for a good standard of living where I can pursue my interests and follow my heart’s desire.


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## Terry_CO (Oct 23, 2012)

I voted to separate now.

Your story sounds a lot like mine. I had gotten complacent because as people we are resilient and adaptable. We learn to accept and even feel comfortable with the way our lives are going, and tend to see the bright side.

I lived for years trying to see the bright side and being patient with the marriage. I was growing old waiting for something to change.

It wasn't until I ended the marriage that I realized how much time I had wasted. The marriage was dead on the vine and I kick myself, even now, for not seeing that sooner.

Start over. You'll be glad you did


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

It now a month since I originally posted. In that time I have read “No More Mr Nice Guy”, “His Needs Her Needs”, and “The Married Man’s Sex Primer”.

All have confirmed that I missing out on a most basic human need. I have discussed this with my wife daily, to the point where she feels depressed.

I have been hugging her daily, doing 10 seconds kisses, bought her a vibrator (which she has not used). She like the kisses etc....she feels it my responsibility to work her into a mood, but in my opinion it should not take weeks. Months and years.....why can’t she see my suffering and give me release. I am a good husband, provide well, have no major interest outside the home.... 

I have told her that I have not cum in 7 weeks, and what am I supposed to do...giving her a role of responsibility in my sexual needs. Originally she got angry, but now she seems to pass it off as nothing...as she says her needs are not being met. 

At one level I feel I must keep plugging away with her...hoping she will come around....and at another level I want to get angry with her, tell her that she needs to be an intimate wife....

A part of me tell me she is innocent and has real intimacy issues.....at another level I feel she is playing me for a fool, and has no interest or desire for me, and never will.. .. (how she does like the companionship and financial support)


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

An update... 

I have been married for 24 years, I turned 50 last year. Recently my wife moved to the spare bedroom, citing she wants a divorce. This has been the pattern of our marriage. I get absorbed in my life and work, take my wife for granted and then work hard to repair the marriage, only to find us back in the same place again a number of years later. 

I do love my wife very much, I have limited intersts outside the home and work. Physically our marriage has been terrible, its been completely sexless for the last 10 years, and the first 6 years of marriage was also sexless, the in the inbetween years were not great either. We have an 18 year old son. I could point blame, but I have accepted that the roots of the problems are a 50/50 split. I long for intimacy and closeness, its a daily pain, but in many ways also shun intimacy also. My wife has issues with being touched and has never initiated sex, and never responds to my advances. 

I have gone to councilling on a few occasions and I have read extensively self improvement books, my wife refuses to go or read. She sayes that I will lie to the counsellor and make it all look like her issue. I used blame my self for the sexless marriage, but now I come to realise that my wife has intimacy issue also. 

We are both good people, our relationship used to be built on friendship, we would hold hand and hug, and do everything together, but that seem like another universe now. I dont want to seperate, oddly I am emotionmally very close to my wife, and if the relationship is ok, I function very well. But if she withdraws, I get scared and lonely. That said I have build up a lot of ressentment towards my wife, I feel that she has denied me a life of intimacy, even just sex a few times a year.

For me the ideal out come would be a return to the days when we were best freinds, with a normal sex life, may be twice or so a week. I feel I am not expecting too much. 

As my wife is now sleeping in the spare room I am being extremely nice to her, knowing that she will come round.... as she always does. But them again..is she right ; should we seperate?

I would welcome comments and insights...


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

It has been roughly 6 months since you first posted and nothing has changed? 

She is not going to change. Give her the divorce so you can find some happiness.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Your going to the grave waiting for her. This approach your using is not working. This is who she is and it is impossible to get her to change. The only way she will change is if she wants to or sees there is a problem. You can only change yourself and how you handle situations. Your wife sounds like an asexual type or a woman with a very low drive. If there never has been a regular routine, you can't expect one to happen either.

I know you love your wife very much and you are very dedicated to her. Either you need to ride it out for the next 30+ years wondering when she's going to give what you need or move on and find a woman who has a much needed higher drive. It doesn't look like your wife is willing to change. 

Going from nothing to 2x's or more a week is a very drastic change. It's a bit unrealistic. If your wife is willing to try to make changes, perhaps a sex therapist would help.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What do the marriage practical (ie financial) aspects look like?


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## 1971 (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm sorry to say but it's time to move on. 

It's now time for you to be in an emotional and physical loving relationship.

I have been willing my husband to change for such a long time, he does for a sort time and then it's back to usual.

The one thing I have learnt from TAM is that I can't change him, he has to do it for himself. I can only change me.

I wish you well, It won't be easy but it will be worth it.

1971


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Your going to the grave waiting for her. This approach your using is not working. This is who she is and it is impossible to get her to change. The only way she will change is if she wants to or sees there is a problem.


:iagree:

The only question on my mind is how important sex & intimacy in a relationship to you.
You did say that you crave that intimacy with her, but it is clear that she doesn't crave it with you.

10 years is quite a long time, and it's been 6 months since you first posted. Nothing has changed.
I think everyone deserves to have that sexual intimacy with the one they love.

If she does not feel that way, then maybe you might haver to end this marriage and search for someone who values sex just as much as you do.
After all, you're not getting younger, and life is way too short to miss out on something as rewarding as sexual intimacy in a committed relationship


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## 47963 (Nov 5, 2012)

Financially I am the only income..... I earn a decent salary.
I believe she has issues...but has never confided in anyone about them.

Our son finishes hight school in summer 2014...maybe that is the time..


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## Red2 (Apr 28, 2013)

The time is now.... Your son is 18, he understands. Your wife seems to do an excellent job manipulating you... It is painful to read your story. I truly feel for you...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The question is how much of revenge or "revenge" you want. I am between MAP1 and MAP2, male apathy plan and male anger plan, and it has annoyed the wife quite a bit as of late. Truth be told she tried to initiate a couple times recently only to be told in no uncertain terms that sex every such and such is not acceptable. I usually am very tolerant of things but these days I do a very credible job of being the angry one.

So, if you are willing to play at her level it will not be much different than what you're going thru right now. Drag it out for another year or so and at least you will have the satisfaction of making her feel what it looks like from your side.

In my case divorce is not in the cards for now for other reasons explained in a different thread but it does not mean I have to be a witness to my own car wreck. A participant, yes, with her as a passenger, yes. 

I am a firm believer that some spouses get away with way too much. If more spouses were dumped early and often... 

Maybe we need CarFax reports for people


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

You said you didn't want to fall back into the same patterns of complacency. But that's exactly what you did. And here you sit, stuck for 6 months and not achieving any of those goals you wrote about. If you really wanted a change, you would change. Despite your love for her, you said you were ready to leave if she didn't change. She didn't. And here you still are...

Frankly, your issues are just as big as hers.


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## totallywarped (Jan 26, 2013)

I think this "marriage" is over. I quote that because it's never been a marriage. You are her cash cow and room mate. She doesn't care about your needs and she isn't going to change. You still have time left to find a REAL relationship. Someone who loves you and wants to be intimate and satisfy you. Someone who's crazy about you and can't wait till the next time she can jump your bones. Those marriages exist!! If you're truly set on staying it's time to ask for an open marriage. If she doesn't want to give you intimacy maybe she'll agree to allow you to get it elsewhere. (although I don't think this is your answer to happiness, you won't be making love you'll be having sex but better then nothing I guess)


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