# Not in Affair yet but can see the train wreck coming



## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

I could write a long post about this situation, but I'll spare everyone the details.

I dated a girl long ago. Our families did not get along with each other though. Her parents liked me, but only after they got to know me.
During the two years we dated, my family pulled strings that forced me to move away. We tried a long distance relationship. At one point, I decided I needed to break things off.
I'd call her family every once in a while, but never got to talk to her. I wanted to ask her if there was some way we could get back together, but it never happened.

I married someone else.
Years passed, and I would look for information regarding #1. I learned that she had gotten married 10 years after I did, to someone who's interests were so different than mine I didn't see a match. I'd call their house every few years, but never leave a message.
Fast forward to 30 years later. #1 is still married to her husband and have three kids. I'm married to #2 and have four kids. One of the emails I wrote to #1's siblings has made it to #1, and she's spent a few years working up the courage to contact me. #1 and I exchange pleasant Emails for two years, and it's becoming obvious to both of us that we never had the chance to fall out of love 30 years ago. She, just like me, married more out of a sense of obligation than love. She's never loved anybody but me.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> I don't even know if I'm asking for advice. I'm confused. I have an obligation to my wife and kids to keep the family together, but there is so much more in common between me and my old flame. I have so much more fun with her than I do with my wife.


PhoenixHiker-

As a man, you really need to start watching action movies, rather than romantic comedies.

Your wife has been a good and honorable woman to you. She has weathered life's travails with you for 30 years.

And you have more in common with the high school girlfriend that you exchange emails with?

Maybe you should try putting some effort into having fun with your wife, instead of a missed connection from decades ago.

And you definitely have some problems that could be addressed in therapy.

But lots of people like to gain wisdom by taking the hard road. So if you want to have an affair, no one will stop you. If you really get into it, you probably won't even notice when the love in your children's eyes is replaced with loathing and contempt.

If you want to save yourself a bunch of pain and misery, stop corresponding with the high school sweetheart, pour your passion into your marriage, and get some counseling on why you have this self-destructive urge.

Good luck.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> I don't even know if I'm asking for advice. I'm confused. I have an obligation to my wife and kids to keep the family together, but there is so much more in common between me and my old flame. I have so much more fun with her than I do with my wife.


You poor poor idiot.

Get a grip man you don`t even really know #1 at this point.

What`s up with your wife?
Why don`t you look into that?

Two kids, married how long?

You`re just itching to **** all over everyones life.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Divorce your wife, ask your #1 to divorce her husband and then you can hook up.
If you don't want that, work things out with your wife and stop living in the past.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

You did the honorable thing over 30 years ago and I hope you continue to do so.Sometimes you "can't go home again" because you're already there.Look at your blessings.When we look at our life in retrospect sometimes we find out that the little things are more important than what we may have thought.In over 30 years of marriage I'm sure there must be thousands of little things that have kept you and your wife together.Don't forget them for what "could" have been, because they are the reality of your life.


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## ishe? (Apr 1, 2011)

OP you should spend some time reading posts from some of the many betrayed spouses on here, of which I'm one. Really read and learn how this kind of betrayal destroys people and families. Then next time you find yourself reminiscing about you old flame you should picture you wife in our shoes. With her world shattered and her heart broken beyond repair.

If your old flame was meant to be you would have made it work all those years ago, you didn't and you wife a d children do not deserve to have their lives ripped apart by your choices.

You are already having an affair with this woman and have been for a couple of years. End it now and get some help for your marriage
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

As a man you made a choice. Live with it.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

IMHO, you got married for the wrong reasons. There is no honor in stealing someone's youth out of a misplaced notion of obligation. However, getting into an affair with your ex-flame is not the solution. You need to man-up and do some soul-searching. You need to decide if you want to spend the rest of your days with your wife or free yourself to potentially find your happiness elsewhere. Freeing yourself means divorcing your current wife, ending that relationship the honorable way. That will be painful to be sure. But if you can't be the husband your wife deserves it may be the right decision. You will retain the respect of your children you would lose if you divorced due to an affair. If you choose your wife then you need to leave your ex-flame in the past. Men and women that are remotely sexually attractive to each other cannot be friends in my book. The sexual tension will be too much to bear and you will cave at some point...


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Why would you throw your life away for schoolboy fantasy?


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## GreenEyes (Jan 27, 2011)

FourtyPlus said:


> Divorce your wife, ask your #1 to divorce her husband and then you can hook up.
> If you don't want that, work things out with your wife and stop living in the past.


:iagree: BTW, When did everyone stop graduating from high school after graduation?????


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

darn it! lol. I didnt respond quickly enough now is OP is gone. Figure he read the first 3-4 posts, it stung and got in the way of his 'high'... no time for that kind of reality, back to la-la land. 

Hey, on the off chance you can tolerate reality.. read the link about fog in my sig. Your swooning on drugs right now. 

Your absolutely right, its going to be a train wreck.... You and your 'soulmate' are high as kites. That's not love, It's a drug a$$wipe. Wake up for a second and look in the back, your children are in the train you and her are about to willingly crash.


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## barelyHuman (Jan 21, 2012)

Why didnt u take your wife and kids wirh you when you went to visit her family.

Your poor wife.


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## dingerdad (Nov 23, 2011)

You are already cheating. What you have talked about and said to the OW will take your wife years to get over WHEN she finds out. Even if it never becomes a PA. The fact that you have had feelings for another woman for 30 years will destroy her. For the rest of her life she will never forget about your EA (yes you are cheating now) and your marriage will never be the same. You have no idea what you are about to put her through. No one but betrayed spouses can even imagine what it's like. Stay here and read our stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

TBT said:


> You did the honorable thing over 30 years ago and I hope you continue to do so.Sometimes you "can't go home again" because you're already there.Look at your blessings.When we look at our life in retrospect sometimes we find out that the little things are more important than what we may have thought.In over 30 years of marriage I'm sure there must be thousands of little things that have kept you and your wife together.Don't forget them for what "could" have been, because they are the reality of your life.


:iagree:


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## dingerdad (Nov 23, 2011)

It's hard to read this thread. I want to save your wife.....I wish you would
wake up. I wish someone had gotten to my wife when she was where you are. Please stop what you are doing. This decision will determine your
whole life on this planet. You can't undo this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

InFlux said:


> IMHO, you got married for the wrong reasons. There is no honor in stealing someone's youth out of a misplaced notion of obligation. However, getting into an affair with your ex-flame is not the solution. You need to man-up and do some soul-searching. You need to decide if you want to spend the rest of your days with your wife or free yourself to potentially find your happiness elsewhere. Freeing yourself means divorcing your current wife, ending that relationship the honorable way. That will be painful to be sure. But if you can't be the husband your wife deserves it may be the right decision. You will retain the respect of your children you would lose if you divorced due to an affair. If you choose your wife then you need to leave your ex-flame in the past. Men and women that are remotely sexually attractive to each other cannot be friends in my book. The sexual tension will be too much to bear and you will cave at some point...


I don't don't think he really thinks he married the wrong person. He made the right choice, he's trying to go back in time for some reason. There's a reason you chose to marry your wife and have children, you obviously loved her.

You may be going through a hard time right now in your marriage, questioning things etc. but, instead of facing it, you're taking the easier path, escaping, fantasizing, the what if's.

You have no idea what poor decisions will do to your life, remember that.


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## GreenEyes (Jan 27, 2011)

dingerdad said:


> You are already cheating. What you have talked about and said to the OW will take your wife years to get over WHEN she finds out. Even if it never becomes a PA. The fact that you have had feelings for another woman for 30 years will destroy her. For the rest of her life she will never forget about your EA (yes you are cheating now) and your marriage will never be the same. You have no idea what you are about to put her through. No one but betrayed spouses can even imagine what it's like. Stay here and read our stories.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree: 100 times over


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

I think I understand you along with Cary Grant are going to the Empire State Building and you will meet your long lost love along with Deborah Kerr. Missed it recently when it was playing on TCM.

GROW UP. You have been married to your supportive wife for all these years she has put up with your S**t and has been there for you. Nothing in your post indicates your wife has been bad or has cheated on you. Someone said the Grass is always Greener but I tend to think of the song "Unanswered Prayers" when I hear of a situation like yours.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

dingerdad said:


> Please stop what you are doing. This decision will determine your whole life on this planet. You can't undo this.


F'ing right it will.

You have a penis and body chemistry for primal action, but you also have something much more powerful in your cranium... use it to make the right choices man. Overcome your primitive desires and stick to the moral high-ground.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

The fact that you call her #1 and your wife #2 says all I need to know. You wasted your wife's life and never thought of her as THE number 1. You sir are exceedingly selfish and deserve this high school trollop who ALSO married her husband despite not loving him. You two deserve each other.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The fact that you call her #1 and your wife #2 says all I need to know. You wasted your wife's life and never thought of her as THE number 1. You sir are exceedingly selfish and deserve this high school trollop who ALSO married her husband despite not loving him. You two deserve each other.


:iagree:

+2 points for using the word "trollop" haha.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> *She's never loved anybody but me.*


Except for her husband she's been married to for 20 years now...


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

After my Mom got divorced the second time, she hooked up with her High School Sweetheart, who was married at the time and still is to this day and still wears his wedding ring. She has been the OW for over 30 years and doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. I am always going to resent her for that - ALWAYS! He's now retired and lives with her. Her visiting me and bringing him along is out of the question, I won't visit her either. I haven't seen her in over 6 years - mainly due to distance but also because I don't want to be around him and I don't want to hear her talk about him as if he is her husband. It's disgusting!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Wow. That is nuts, Fourty.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Wanna bet I can top it with a story about what my Grandpa did?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Spill


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Don't want to hijack this thread - Grandpa had a secret family on the side for decades. Two kids, the OW never left her hubby but he knew the kids weren't his. My grandpa had promised her to marry her once his parent's weren't around anymore (coward). Granny found out and then the OW showed up demanding to be married. Back then people didn't divorce and my Grandma had no job skills other than being a mother. They stayed married. The never worked out anything and my Grandma was bitter all her life. They celebrated their 65th anniversary a few years before she died. He took it very hard, he never recovered from her death - guilt.
What get's me is that he never told me. It was something that was kind of mentioned and that was it. Those kids he had with the OW are my age, I believe I should have known he had a secret family. I should have been told, especially since my Grandpa was a substitute for my own father, who wasn't around.. It hurts me very much. My Mom and aunt don't fault my grandpa for what he did. I don't know how they do it but they do.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

So you wanna wreck the lives of 7 children,and 2 innocent spouses---for something that you arn't even sure will work out---what you have with your 1st GF, is infatuation, and some memories---that's it---there is no reality there---but on a whim, you are willing to wreck at least 9 lives, time to grow up and be a responsible man, husband, and father


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## oaksthorne (Mar 4, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> The fact that you call her #1 and your wife #2 says all I need to know. You wasted your wife's life and never thought of her as THE number 1. You sir are exceedingly selfish and deserve this high school trollop who ALSO married her husband despite not loving him. You two deserve each other.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I could not agree more.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

FourtyPlus said:


> Wanna bet I can top it with a story about what my Grandpa did?


lol


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

No OP back yet. Another post and run??


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

More like post and lurk. I wasn't expecting positive reinforcement. Just looking for reasons to justify breaking contact with a good friend and resume the marriage.
I saw no reason to throw more gasoline on the fire.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> More like post and lurk. I wasn't expecting positive reinforcement. Just looking for reasons to justify breaking contact with a good friend and resume the marriage.
> I saw no reason to throw more gasoline on the fire.


No - there's no positive reinforcement for an affair here for sure. So did you get the justification you need to get off the tracks to disaster and back into your marriage? FWIW - I had an EA myself and get where you were/are. What's your next step?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> More like post and lurk. I wasn't expecting positive reinforcement. Just looking for reasons to justify breaking contact with a good friend and resume the marriage.
> I saw no reason to throw more gasoline on the fire.


She's not a friend dude. 

Seriously. Even through your fog, you have to realize that?. 

It's way beyond that, and it's always been way beyond that.


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

I think I need counseling.

I've never touched the Ex GF.

My wife is as friendly as ever. - But - There's nothing I can find in common with my wife. I ask her if she'd like a night out and make suggestions. No interest. I ask her what she'd like to do and it's stuff I have zero interest in. It feels like we are roommates who have become a good team. There's no anger or fighting. We share the housework and raising of the kids. My wife has no idea I've been spending the last few years corresponding with my ExGF. I'm trying so hard to put passion back into the marriage. I think the big problem is the difference in energy levels. I'm a triathlete/hiker/gym rat, she watches TV. When I suggest we do something together she starts talking about all the great TV shows we could watch together. (All happen to be 'reality shows') I'm not wasting brain cells on that thing.

I'm lost.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> When I suggest we do something together she starts talking about all the great TV shows we could watch together. (All happen to be 'reality shows') I'm not wasting brain cells on that thing.


Just wait until you see how many brain cells you waste when you decide to chase the high and drop a thermo nuclear bomb on both of your familes. 

and I'm with you.....

Don't waste your evenings doing something you don't want to do in the interest of saving something as silly and cliche as marriage or "family"... 

What you should do is make token efforts to rebuild or reconnect with your wife so you feel better about having tried... Once we have some of that pesky guilt out of the way then we can work on words like "destiny, meant to be, and soul mates"...

Really... No worries, everyone will be happy for you and your OW. Everyone dreams of finding such a fulfilling connection. and.... Of course it will turn out great!!, love will conquer all and you guys will be in love forever. That's how these things work.


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## cabin fever (Feb 9, 2012)

PhoenixHiker said:


> I think I need counseling.
> 
> I've never touched the Ex GF.
> 
> ...


YOu do realize marriage is a 2 way street right? Try making her happy by watching TV with her once in awhile, and maybe she would be more receptive to doing the things you like. 

Dude, you have a high school crush on a girl you really havn't seen in 30 years. You want to ruin so many lives its not even funny. 

#1 hasn't been with you through good bad. All you see is the good with #1. Trust me, if you had been with her for the past 30 years, you would be writing about how you don't have the same things in common too! The grass isn't always greener. 

Do yourself a favor, and tell #1's husband, so he can knock some sense into you!  Then tell your wife, so she isn't the victim of an affair!


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## KirkSpock (Mar 21, 2012)

*“I’m lost”*

No you aren’t, you typed out the answer just above the “I’m lost” comment. Here it is:

*“if this continues, we'll destroy both our families. This needs to stop now.”*
Read that over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again until it sinks in. If it doesn’t, do your wife a favor and divorce her. She’s been settled on by you for long enough because you are pining over someone you knew for 2 years over 30 years ago and your poor wife doesn’t also need the added pain of being cheated on. By the way, your creepy stalking ways (calling the married OW’s house and not leaving messages, checking up on married OW, etc.) are bizarre and scary; I think you really do need IC, and NOT just for your marriage. Reading your post gave me the “creeping willies”, also known as “the chills”. What a role model for your children you are: “Kids, settle for the first woman who is nice to you and stalk/obsess over the ones you can’t get (and are married). That’s the key to a healthy relationship and a happy family”. Yikes.

Clearly, you are not “lost”, you are desperately seeking answers/justifications that will counter the knowledge that you are a creepy dude who is thinking about destroying his family over a fantasy he has imagined for over 30 years. I don’t think you will find those justifications on this forum.


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

--


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

Let's tone it down here a bit. Yes, an affair is not the answer. Yes, he's in denial he is even IN an emotional affair. Yes, he doesn't see it (because he's in the fog). WE all get it so it's not going to really help him to keep telling him that 8 million ways from our moral high horses. I'm going to try something from a bit different tact...

Yes, you feel "lost". The reason you feel lost is there is a fundamental dichotomy in your head. On one hand you are the responsible husband/father with your wife whom you've weathered 30 years but have lost the intimacy with. On the other hand, you feel you have more of a "connection" with the paramour from your youth. You feel intimacy with her but it's mostly chemically-induced by your brain (it won't last -- sorry!) The reason, BTW, you feel you have a connection with your ex (other than the dopamine) is because she is more or less in the same life position as you are, lost in her own marriage. In other words you guys can "relate". You guys can "sympathize". Misery loves company as the saying goes. That's not the connection you want to have though and you realize that it's not sustainable. You're smart enough to know this since you're asking for advice on a marriage forum amongst other things. 

I see your posting as more of a plea for help instead of trying to get rationalization for entering into an affair. Let's help him instead of hitting him over the head with the stick of moral righteousness.

What you really need to do (and probably want to do) is to recover the intimacy you lost with your wife. This is going to require efforts from you both. I suggest you tell your ex that you are going to recommit to your marriage and really work at it and you leave the past in the past. Suggest that she do the same in her marriage and that you're never going to talk to her again. And mean it. You then need to talk to your wife about re-connecting. Talking with other couples who can relate will give you the connection you had with your ex in the sense of finding someone else who can relate/sympathize but in a constructive vs. destructive fashion. Reconnecting with your wife and finding the intimacy is a whole different conversation then the one we're having right now in this thread. But we're here to help and gladly will if you want to go down that much rosier road...


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

Influx - Thank you!
I have to admit that I was using the forum more as a sounding board, as the majority of suggestions have been vitriolic. Ask for help and get a fist to the side of the head? Yeah, sure I'll be back for more of that. My initial impulse, on reading an angered response is "I don't need your permission to have an affair. I'm here to PREVENT escalation." Most responders here have presumed me guilty of an affair. I AM guilty, but there are levels of guilt. Having a crush on someone is less of a problem than a mutual crush is less than a problem of a physical affair. They ALL CAUSE PROBLEMS. I know that. You can point my guilt out to me, but name-calling is only going to make me abandon this board. 

Influx - Your post hits the issue spot on. As I wrote earlier today, the EXGF and I both know what's going on. We both admitted to each other that what was meant to be a "How's your life been?" has evolved into a real and intolerable EA. We both know that we have tricked ourselves into thinking the other has no faults where our spouses do. We both said goodbye to each other hoping it will be the last time.
It's difficult to stay away from the 'Compose Letter' button. It's difficult to keep from checking the inbox to see if ExGF has had a moment of weakness.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> I see what you are doing, Pit.


Isn't irony beautiful?. You can see what Im doing, but you can't see what your doing. 

The answers are simple Phoenix, and your situation is not nearly as complicated as you think. _You_ are making it that way. Your comprimized my friend.

For the record, I dont mean to punch you in the teeth with sarcasm or anger. If thats the way it sounds, it's not my intention. 

It does sound like you have maintained some level of logic, and perspective. But if you could hear what your saying, it's deluded. There is a way out of this, it can still be fixed. But, you have to get your feet back underneath you.


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## Kasus (Mar 31, 2012)

OP the choices I see you can make are the following, and in my opinion on how they may turn out:

1 - You don't tell your wife about the emotional affair and don't ACTIVELY work on your marriage:
-- You will just end up miserable in this way and forever be in the "fog".

2 - You don't tell your wife about the emotional affair and actively work on your marriage:
-- You may or may not fall (/back) in love with your wife, but as long as the fantasy of the other woman remains, you can never commit to full reconciliation and hence make the best out of your marriage. You would still be unhappy.

3 - You tell your wife about the affair and don't work on winning her back.
-- in this case divorce her immediately so she can move on peacefully. Needlessly to say you'll be wrecking not just your and OW's family but further emotionally invested relations.

4 - Tell your wife about the affair and work on winning her back.
-- Probably what most, if not all, of us would recommend. You may lose her, but it's your best chance you have of having a complete connection with your wife if you reconcile.

I also highly recommend you read "His Needs, Her Needs", as to me you sound very selfish to her emotional needs.


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

So.... Its really NOT difficult to keep from contacting someone you are still fogged up with? Please point me to that magic bullet!


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> Influx - Thank you!
> I have to admit that I was using the forum more as a sounding board, as the majority of suggestions have been vitriolic. Ask for help and get a fist to the side of the head? Yeah, sure I'll be back for more of that. My initial impulse, on reading an angered response is "I don't need your permission to have an affair. I'm here to PREVENT escalation." Most responders here have presumed me guilty of an affair. I AM guilty, but there are levels of guilt. Having a crush on someone is less of a problem than a mutual crush is less than a problem of a physical affair. They ALL CAUSE PROBLEMS. I know that. You can point my guilt out to me, but name-calling is only going to make me abandon this board.
> 
> Influx - Your post hits the issue spot on. As I wrote earlier today, the EXGF and I both know what's going on. We both admitted to each other that what was meant to be a "How's your life been?" has evolved into a real and intolerable EA. We both know that we have tricked ourselves into thinking the other has no faults where our spouses do. We both said goodbye to each other hoping it will be the last time.
> It's difficult to stay away from the 'Compose Letter' button. It's difficult to keep from checking the inbox to see if ExGF has had a moment of weakness.


BTW, don't fool yourself that an emotional affair is less damaging than a physical affair. In many ways, it is actually *more* damaging. Let me ask you which you think is worse: your wife admitting to a one night stand or your wife admitting she invested emotional intimacy in someone else over weeks/months/years? Saying she loved him, pined for him, whispering sweet-nothings that you thought were only ever met for you. For most people it's the giving of your heart, your emotions, to someone else that is the punch in the gut. The physical consummation somewhat less so (though damaging to be sure...)


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## Kasus (Mar 31, 2012)

PhoenixHiker said:


> So.... Its really NOT difficult to keep from contacting someone you are still fogged up with? Please point me to that magic bullet!


The truth is for a WW it is extremely difficult to go NC. Unless your actions are out in the open, it would take extreme willpower (which you don't have otherwise you wouldn't be here) to stop contact. That is another benefit of you talking with your wife as the exposure would act as a deterrent and give you shame and humility for your actions. These two emotions are lost in the fog unfortunately.

You need to speak with your wife and let her know you will be writing a no contact letter to the OW. This is very beneficial as it acts as some form of psychological relief for your wife and as an extra form of deterrent for you. 

I have to say judging by your responses, you give no clear indication of what you want to do. What do you want? Do you want this marriage to work?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> The answers are simple Phoenix, and your situation is not nearly as complicated as you think.





PhoenixHiker said:


> So.... Its really NOT difficult to keep from contacting someone you are still fogged up with? Please point me to that magic bullet!


I said the answers were simple and the situation was not that complicated. 

I didn't say putting down the crack pipe would be easy. 

No doubt, It's a motha fuxer!. lol. Trust me, I know.

But FTR, you are making it even harder on yourself than it has to be.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Phoenix, to help kick-start a new way of thinking about your wife, try listening to high-energy, inspirational love songs with positive messages... and then make mind movies in your head to the story-lines that involve scenes of your and your wife acting out the parts. Try and combine some actual happy memories in these mind movies while you're at it.

Sometimes when you create inspirational visions in your mind, they start to inspire you with energy to act positively and new appreciation for who you have in your life.

Get back in touch with your soul and conscious. There are ways to discover new-found passion when directing all your primal physical energy upon your wife. Think of your wife as someone special and there's a pack of wild men trying poach her from you all the time, and big-ole you must keep protecting her and claiming her as yours and yours alone. Make her your fantasy... fantasize about her.

Make your mind your own worst enemy that you would lose her by means beyond your control, and you having to continuously fight for control to keep her as your own.

Just some ideas...


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## KirkSpock (Mar 21, 2012)

Phoenix, it is very easy because there are no third party entities involved in this decision: it’s entirely up to you. Either you love your wife and will commit to fixing your marriage, whatever that entails, or you do not love your wife and you go off with the Ex GF (who is also married???) or whomever else you are interested in. It’s really that simple, in my opinion, and ENTIRELY up to you. Nothing anyone says here can determine whether you love your wife (and by extension, your family, as they will be destroyed if you stray from your marriage while still married). People like to make all kinds of complicated and convoluted posts because, in their minds, there are complex, complicated stories that must, in some way, make them DIFFERENT than the bastards and a-holes who are cheating on their wives for NO REASON, or for reasons that aren’t as justifiable as yours (of course). In other words, you convolute a simple issue--the issue being “Should I try to progress with my fantasy GF from 30 years ago while currently married”. I am NOT talking about your marital issues which are a separate issue and indeed, complex. Might I again suggest that your PERSONAL issues are also varied and complex, as evidenced by your infatuation with this woman 30 years after the fact. I don’t say this to be snarky or shocking: you can see the creepiness in what you are talking about, right? You can see there’s something….not healthy in that, right? You’ve been carrying on a 30 year EA with someone who doesn’t even know it. This demands some serious counseling, and again, I am not trying to be an a-hole, I am offering genuine advice as an outsider.
Since you are a parent (on a tangent here, but I just don’t get cheating parents: are they so selfish, blind, and/or stupid that they don’t realize they are teaching their kids that this is APPROPRIATE behavior, let alone the mental and emotional devastation the affair itself causes. Do they not even think of these things while so deep in the fog? Do they just not care? <<<facepalm>>>), I too will try a different approach: What would you advise your children to do if they came to you with the same situation, particularly if they had children of their OWN? Would their lame excuses about the differences between them and their spouse in any way affect their decision to engage in an EA and, possibly, a PA down the line? See, you want this to be a complex and difficult topic, but it’s not: it so simple, even a child can understand. There are morals, and ethics, and right and wrong: I think, if you are honest with yourself, you will find that what you are considering, and frankly, what you have been engaging in for the past 30 years, is neither morally acceptable, ethically sound, or right by any imagination of the word.

People here aren’t saying these things because we are meany pants who enjoy berating others: we are trying to get you to see the error of your ways so you can wake the he double hockey sticks up before you do something incredibly stupid. I hope you get that and don’t take offense to the truth that’s being thrust upon you....although, I’m not sure what you expect posting about an EA on an marriage forum.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

PhoenixHiker said:


> So.... Its really NOT difficult to keep from contacting someone you are still fogged up with? Please point me to that magic bullet!


This is why most people recommend you tell your wife about the affair. For accountability. Along with telling her, you also are transparent with your communications (phone, email, etc.) Since it's all out in the open you are going to think 10 times about contacting her.

Ultimately, the only way to deal with this is time. Time heals all things and your feelings for her (and her for you) will fade. Also, if you are rebuilding things with your wife in a meaningful way then hopefully you are starting to feel intimacy for her again which will definitely help. You both (your wife and you) failed to give each other what you both needed emotionally in the relationship which is why the intimacy died. That happens ultimately because you don't understand each other and because you probably were never brutally honest with each other in the relationship. Women tend to treat men in relationships as women and men tend to treat women in relationships as men. This is a source of a lot of problems in long-term relationships. My wife used to tell me she "was going to bed" and that I should come to bed with her to put her to sleep. Because I'm a night owl many times I didn't want to go to bed when she did and heard her pleas as incessant nagging. she was really trying to tell me she wanted to have sex. That's what I mean about being brutally honest. Say what you mean. Take no prisoners. I have a lot more I can say about reconnecting...


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

--


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

InFlux said:


> What you really need to do (and probably want to do) is to recover the intimacy you lost with your wife.


Get this book: His Needs Her Needs, by Harley. Avoid his forums like the plague that they are, but read the book - it's all about rediscovering what your marriage is supposed to be about, so that you two can fall in love again.

The other thing you need to do is tell your wife you've been less than satisfied and ask her to travel this path with you and read the book together. You also need to be spending 10 to 15 hours a week together with the tv off, computer off, kids out of the picture - in other words, dating.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> From my viewpoint, I'm sneaking around to public computers to access a secret email account (created to contact ExGF, just in case she turned out to be a nutcase stalker) I also sneak around drinking Diet Coke a few times a week instead of only water.
> If I were to walk up to my wife and say "Honey, I can't keep this a secret any more. I drink a six pack of diet coke a week. Some days when I say I'm coming straight home, I really stop at the park and drink a bottle of diet coke." *There would be ROYAL heck to pay*. Now, lets imagine that I tell her the reason I've been so caring and attentive to her, and willing to agree to any decision she has made is because I've been writing letters to my exGF.
> 
> I don't think I'm willing to reset the relationship to a point even lower than when she'd tell me what's wrong with me every six months. Whenever I see something that can be done to make my wife happier, I think of all the letters to/from ExGF and go to the extra effort to make my wife happy. I'd rather wear the family apron than be told of all my faults. And without the guilt of knowing I'm in the middle of an EA, I don't think I'd be patient enough to be so attentive.
> ...


You're describing a Walter Middy relationship, wherein you are not honest, act like a doormat, stay out of trouble...and have no marriage. You have a convenience. 

Is your wife a strong person? The kind who tells you what she's thinking, who takes what she wants, who berates you if you say you don't like what she likes? That's the sense I get.

You could divorce her...or...you could work on YOU, to find out why you choose doormat status and are afraid of her and will not make waves. 

To me, THAT is the problem of your marriage, not your feelings for OW. Unless you get help to learn to stand up for yourself and be honest (whether she gets upset or not), you will never be happy. You may dump your wife and seek out your fantasy OW, but you still won't be happy. In fact, your guilt will eat you inside out.

Fix YOU. Find a good psychologist and start going.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

Dude, that's not going to work. Sorry. The reason it's not going to work is because YOU are not happy. You are not being honest in the relationship. Worse, you are not being honest to yourself. Fail. If you want a diet coke you shouldn't have to feel like you have to "sneak it". You are trying to conform yourself to the "image" you think your wife has of you. And you see the result: lost intimacy with your wife along with, I'm sure, a certain amount of resentment. It's no wonder, then, that you reconnected with your ex because around her you can be YOU. The solution for all your problems is to allow yourself to be YOU around your wife. If she can't accept the real YOU then that's her failing and then let the chips fall where they will. But at least allow her the opportunity to accept you for you. And BTW, maybe she hasn't ever shown you HER real self. You guys owe it to each other to be brutally honest with each other for maybe the first time in your relationship....

You also need to start being brutally honest with what you want and need in the relationship. If her cursing bothered you instead of giving her a "good example" and hoping she'd change (a covert contract), you should have told her "woman, I don't like the cursing and here's why..." If she understood her cursing bothered you she would have suppressed it or would have not hooked-up with you in the first place if it was something that was important to her. By not showing her your true self, at a certain level, she doesn't really know the man she married. She only thinks she does.


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

--


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## PhoenixHiker (Jan 24, 2012)

KirkSpock - 
When I made my first post, yes, I did think 'But This Situation Is Different'. It didn't take many days of reading other stories to realize I fell right into a formula pattern. There's no difference, nothing that makes me special. I didn't see that when I created the OP, and many of the responses initially solidified my misconception that 'But This Situation Is Different' applied.

My point, now that I'm thinking (probably only) a little clearer is that when someone comes here looking for answers and instead gets beaten over the head with accusations, it may not be all that helpful. I was ready to close the window when I read that I was a horrible man who deserved all seven levels of Dante's Inferno. Then there would be a post saying to be strong and do the right thing. THAT'S what is helping. And as I think things through, I'm able to read the accusing posts and know that in some way, large or small, the accusations apply.


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## Kasus (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm going to get straight to the point here. 

You are taking away HER right to make an informed decision on this marriage. Stop being an @ss, there is no if's and buts, this is the most important fact.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

This thread got strange as soon as you went all "covert diet cokes" and then "covert lunch money for backpacks."

good luck with everything


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> I'm absolutely serious in saying that I am willing to put my wife's interest ahead of mine until the day she dies. Marriage is about compromises, and both my wife and I have made compromises. I feel like I've made more than she has, and when I ask her tonight, I'm sure she's going to think she's made more than me. But marriages are not about scorecards.


IMO, you are mistaking what you feel gets you the best outcome (no strife in your life) for what is right. 

Marriage is not about compromises in the way you are describing it. It is about DISCUSSING what each person wants and then BOTH of you giving up a little of what you want so that you can meet in the middle. Kinda like what Congress is supposed to do.

If you 'compromise' by giving up playing basketball every Saturday because she complains, and she 'compromises' by giving up knitting because you want her to sit by you on the couch instead, NEITHER of you is getting what you want, and you will BOTH grow to resent each other because of your sacrifices. 

Real compromise would be her agreeing to you playing basketball every OTHER Saturday so that you still get to enjoy basketball, and you agreeing to her knitting WHILE she's sitting beside you on the couch, so she gets to keep knitting.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell me this, PH: Have you read the book No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> She wanted to know why I had all that money. I confessed that it was just a couple dollars a week over a couple years. She (rightly so) wanted to know why I was putting money aside for something. I told her I had my eye on a new backpack. She didn't understand why I wanted a new backpack when I already had one. I was dumbfounded that she would ask me why when the answer was so obvious to me: Because the new one is better.


btw, this is incredibly doormat, conflict-avoidance behavior. She has no respect for you because you TAUGHT her not to respect you, since you didn't respect yourself enough. Great that the MC saw through her, but terrible that MC didn't push you to stand up for yourself. If you had done so way back then, this would all be moot by now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

PhoenixHiker said:


> And as I think things through, I'm able to read the accusing posts and know that in some way, large or small, the accusations apply.


 We like to say that, whatever hurts the most, is usually what you NEED to hear the most. True with all of us. A couple of times, when I've been told what I now know I needed to hear, I had to leave the forums and go nurse my wounds. But luckily, I came back for more, and am in a much better place now. I NEEDED to hear the stuff I didn't want to hear.


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## KirkSpock (Mar 21, 2012)

EDIT: I didn't see this part of your last post: *And as I think things through, I'm able to read the accusing posts and know that in some way, large or small, the accusations apply. *

Now that I see that, most of my post below is irrelevant. But I am leaving it unedited just so you are informed  And Phoenix, I am GLAD to see you are seeing some truth in the accusations, THIS IS WHY some of us don't pull our punches; that doesn't wake people up to the scary reality that, perhaps, they really are "the bad guy", or at least, that they might need to re-evaluate everything they thought they knew. 

END OF EDIT


*when someone comes here looking for answers and instead gets beaten over the head with accusations, it may not be all that helpful.*

Hi Phoenix,
While on the one hand I understand where you are coming from…no one likes to be inundated with negativity…..you have to understand that you opened yourself up to harsh and direct criticism by posting your situation in the manner you posted. Add to that that you admitted to being in a 30 years EA (2 of which the OW has been involved in, if I read your posts correctly) in a forum where many posters have been cheated on and you should expect some harsh and direct wording. Most of us grew tired of being doormats years ago and don’t communicate like doormats communicate. I think what is agitating for you is that you are being called out for what you actually are (and what you are actually doing), as truth often hurts when not put kindly or gently. Perhaps another perspective might help…..
This is ALL the folks at TAM know about you (from this post):
1 You have been married for 30 years and have multiple children.
2 despite this, you have an infatuation with a woman you knew 30 years ago: phone calls, checking up on her, thinking about her, etc. Most people would agree that this IS NOT NORMAL.
3. You started having serious EA thoughts about this woman 2 years ago and have been in contact with her since then.
4. You seem to be completely and utterly clueless as to how this is going to affect your family. You seem to have NO remorse (or shame) whatsoever for your betrayal, and seem to be insinuating that a EA/PA would be justified because of reasons A, B, and C that make you and your wife so incompatible now (HINT: this is probably what is causing the harsh/negative remarks: at least, this last point influences how I am communicating with you; certainly I wouldn't kick a man who was in grief over his actions when he was down....but that's clearly not you)

Again, based upon that limited knowledge…does that sound like a stand up guy who deserves to be hand held and spoken softly to or is this a guy who needs a serious wake up call? Would you want this guy dating your daughter??????? 
That said, it’s not my intent to berate you or make you feel worse....I suppose I should ask you directly: Why are you here? What information are you seeking? Because so far it seems like you are looking for approval, based upon how incompatible you and your wife are, for cheating on your wife. Am I completely off base? :scratchhead:


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Either divorce your wife and pursue your old flame or stop thinking about fantasies and be a real man to the woman you married. You might have left high school long ago, but your logic is still back there. Grow up, guy. You're about to ruin a lot of lives if you don't get a grip on reality and you're going to feel pretty terrible about it when you finally wake up to what you've done. Spare yourself and everyone else involved the trouble and get both feet in the marriage or both feet out the door.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

turnera said:


> We like to say that, whatever hurts the most, is usually what you NEED to hear the most. True with all of us. A couple of times, when I've been told what I now know I needed to hear, I had to leave the forums and go nurse my wounds. But luckily, I came back for more, and am in a much better place now. I NEEDED to hear the stuff I didn't want to hear.


You should read this again Phoenix. 

I can attest to everything turnera said, eventually you will too.


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## kittykat09 (Mar 26, 2012)

Bottled Up said:


> This thread got strange as soon as you went all "covert diet cokes" and then "covert lunch money for backpacks."
> 
> good luck with everything


I lol'd.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I just see lots of attempts at justifaction. Your wife is this, your wife is that.

It really is simple; you want to work on your marriage or you do not. You might find that, if you invested the energy from pining for your old flame into reinforcing your marriage, things could change. The grass isn't always greener.

Or, thinking critically, let's look at it another way: If all the things that irk you about your wife (or your marriage) were on the table, and if the OW wasn't, would you still want to leave? Meaning the sum totality of all of the ups and downs of your marriage, but somehow the OW wasn't available (and be realistic; she isn't- she's married) on one hand, and you being alone and free to do what you like on the other. Is your marriage so bad that you would leave if the other woman wasn't a back up option? 

I think if you can honestly answer that question to yourself, you might have a better idea of what to do.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Well, the problem with living a double life inside your mind.....is that it takes away emotional, mental, physical---energy from your marriage. It also builds a wall to intimacy. Because you have to keep up the lie just to be with your partner. Then you start "going through the motions" and finding fault with your spouse. It happens as a result of the deception. The emotional honesty dies.

This is what happened in my marriage, even though no physical act took place. 

The other problem is that you refer to your wife as #2! In your mind, this is the label you assign to her. That in itself is so telling about how you are feeling about this. You seem to have settled for your "#2" -- and now you are upset with yourself for it.....How would you feel if your wife referred to you as "#2"? While she pined throughout your marriage for her "true love"?

Or better yet, what if your #1 referred to you as her second choice? I bet that would wake you up. You need to find a way to put yourself in your wife's shoes. Maybe then you will see the impact your "struggle" is having on your marriage.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Phoenix~

You have written some WONDERFUL things--you wouldn't know it but they are VERY, VERY helpful! And I'm working on a longer, practical reply using some of your quotes so I can show you stuff like "See right here? That's where your 'thinking' takes a detour" or "Here are 3 ways you can do this right now." 

Just for background, I too was a disloyal spouse, and yep disloyals pretty much get beat up here pretty harshly--but by the same token I take it with a grain of salt because the fact is that the large majority of the folks here have been destroyed to the core by the way their disloyal spouse treated them. Soooo...I'm sorry that's how it feels to you individually, but I do also at least see why people have that kind of reaction. 

Anyway....I'm working on it. You said a lot and it will take me a moment. Hope you stick around to read it!!


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## endlessgrief (Feb 19, 2012)

If I found out after 30 years that I was #2, I would kill someone!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Phoenix~

I highly suspect that many people here may not view it this way, but I--for one--am glad that you came on, told the truth, and asked for help to prevent the train wreck. And make no mistake about it, the train wreck is coming...so if you don't change your ways P.D.Q. a divorce is likely to be looming on your horizon. 

That being said, I see a LOT of hope in many of you posts, and as a former disloyal myself, may I go through some of your posts and show you the hopeful parts and also point out the parts where your thinking sort of "goes off-track"--namely where you take a step or two in reality and then sudden VEER "off track" into foggy thinking. In order to stop the train wreck, you'll need to stop your thoughts that are heading more and more into fog-think...and basically retrain them to be back "on track" with true REALITY. Then I also have some very specific things you'll need to do in order to stop the train on the track (continuing with that metaphor) and put your marriage BACK on the tracks. So okay let's get started. 

The very FIRST thing I'm going to mention to you is that when we write to you (not the bashing ones but those who take the time, who have BTDT), your initial reaction has been and will likely continue to be "Nuh uh! That's not true. Here's why: <insert foggy justification list here>." That is kind of human nature...to respond in a way that defends yourself and your side and then points out the problems with THE OTHER GUY. It deflects the problem from "what you're doing" to "what they did" so now we're all looking at "what they did" rather than objectively considering "What you're doing." *So the VERY FIRST THING that I'm going to suggest is that rather than the instinctive response of "No that's not fair. She did X, Y, and Z" that you take the time to notice your first thought is to defend your actions, and then very, very consciously... choose to set that defense aside* and get back to this reality. Whether your wife was a complete **** or a living goddess is irrelevant. We are considering YOU and YOUR CHOICES and YOUR ACTIONS and what you have done. The choices she has made and the way she behaves do not "make" you take stept so to deceive her or "make" you do anything. YOU choose that!! So what you do is what you do. That is the very definition of "personal responsibility."

Next, let's look at some of your quotes. You wrote:


> ...There's nothing I can find in common with my wife. I ask her if she'd like a night out and make suggestions. No interest. I ask her what she'd like to do and it's stuff I have zero interest in.


Did you notice something interesting here? You suggest going out and things you would like and the fact that she doesn't show interest in your things is one way you justify the EA with the ExGF...because of the "connection." And you look at that again. You ask HER what SHE is interested in and say "it's stuff I have zero interest in." So she tells you!! Your wife expresses to you some things that she finds interesting...but the fact that YOU don't show interest in HER things does not connect to "good enough reason for my wife to have an affair with an old lover who likes the things she does" in your mind. So in the same way that she shows no interest in YOUR things, you said yourself that you have "zero interest" in hers!! She even made suggestions to you!! 

You wrote: 


> ... It feels like we are roommates who have become a good team. There's no anger or fighting. We share the housework and raising of the kids. My wife has no idea I've been spending the last few years corresponding with my ExGF. I'm trying so hard to put passion back into the marriage.


Actually to be honest, this is fairly typical. You both got negligent. And yeah I say both because you got used to your wife being there, raising the kids, doing chores, watching TV but it has never dawned on you that during the day, while you're at work or running these races, that she could be chatting with another man online who tells her she is funny, witty, charming, adorable and altogether lovely (because she is). You got used to her being there and she got used to you being there and probably thinks that after 30 years she is safe and she's in no danger...so she let her guard down. And the fact is I will bet you money that you have too. Do you still smell good when she sees you? Still dress up and look handsome? Still buy her flowers, write her love poems, or get her those goofy romantic cards? Send her chocolate kisses? Sweep her off her feet? Listen to her like honey dripped off her lips? Hey maybe you do some, but my guess is that she slacked off some and you've slacked off some and VOILA...fertile ground for an EA. 

You wrote:


> I think the big problem is the difference in energy levels. I'm a triathlete/hiker/gym rat, she watches TV. When I suggest we do something together she starts talking about all the great TV shows we could watch together. (All happen to be 'reality shows') I'm not wasting brain cells on that thing.


See? Again you just adamantly SHUT DOWN what she shows an interest in. Also look how you worded it: "...she starts talking about all the great TV shows we could watch together." Do you see it? She WANTS to spend time with you and share something with you, and you are refusing her COLD!! You suggest that you do what YOU want to do or nothing...and thus it's been "nothing" for a long, long time. 

Sooooo...can you see where your thoughts slid from reality and got "off track"? It is reasonable for you to want to do something fun with your wife, but it is just as reasonable for her to want to do something fun with you. So, for your first assignment, rather than making your wife do what she is not interested in...and rather you doing the "selfless martyr" act (which I don't really buy, by the way),* I suggest that you sit down together and address this as a TEAM! * Dont' try to MAKE her go to the gym--that is trying for force her and you two are enemies then. Don't let her MAKE you watch shows you hate---that is just forcing you and you two are enemies then. * Instead, get a long list of possible things you could do together and go over the list one by one until you find something neither one of you has done yet and both of you think "Yeah that might be fun."* She may be more of an introvert than you are...so maybe read to her! Read one of your favorite books to her! Or do puzzles together. Go to an art class together. Restore an old classic car together. Get the idea? 

You wrote: 


> ...Some probably irrelevant points: I've always put others before myself. The reason the Ex and I broke up was because each thought the other was dissatisfied and agreed to break up as a selfless act without asking why. I married my wife because I felt like I owed her for her help. And as much as I regret admitting this, I did consider her a second choice. We waited nearly ten years to have children after marriage. I wanted none, but selflessly let her win the argument before the biological clock ran out. I'm not interested in divorce, or in hurting my wife. Telling her, out of the blue, about this situation would probably ruin the marriage right then.


Sorry but I'm raising the B.S.flag on this one. :bsflag: Here's why. You present it like it's an act of selflessness, but now you're using it as a weapon/reason to justify lying to your wife, being sneaky, hiding things from her, and continuing a relationship you know is wrong. Here's reality. You and the ExGF may not have explained to each other why you broke up at the time but the fact still remains that SHE LEFT YOU and you left her. She did not look you up all those years, did not hold you when you were sick all those years, did not cook and clean and care for you all those years, did not help you and support you all those years, did not come to your bed all those years and did not give you children. Your WIFE did. The fact is that your wife helped and maybe you didn't marry her because you were head-over-heels infatuated or in lust ith her. BUT the fact is that YOU stood before God, the community, family and friends, and you did make certain promises to her. So in reality... you OWE the one woman and the other woman has not even bothered to be in your life and you owe her NOTHING! If you didn't love your wife you didn't have to marry her, but you did. Same for having kids. You didn't have to "give in" and let her have kids but you did. So now you're justifying "I get to have something FOR ME" because all those years you gave everything for her. 

:bsflag:

SHE stretched the paycheck until it reached. SHE helped you get through school. SHE woke up and fed the babies at night. The other woman didn't give ANY of that to you...so although I know that what you write is actually what you think (and in that aspect, is "true"), in reality you are deluding yourself trying to explain why it's okay for you to have something selfish now. 

You wrote: 


> ...My marriage is not stressed. We talk with each other. We help each other out. She's 'compliant' sexually (although I do wish there was more to it than 'hurry up.' and her arms go over her head as she spreads her legs). Simply put, I have no tracks other than what's in my head. There's no second cell phone, no texts, no letters to be found, no facebook, no email account to discover unless she happens to go to the library and do the thousand monkey trick. Just my guilt, which has been growing as I've noticed what's happened.


Later on, you wrote:


> ...From my viewpoint, I'm sneaking around to public computers to access a secret email account (created to contact ExGF, just in case she turned out to be a nutcase stalker) I also sneak around drinking Diet Coke a few times a week instead of only water.


Sooooo...which is it? Do you have a secret email account or not? If you wife did get to the library and somehow find this email account created to contact ExGF...and she read it...would she have known it all along or would it be a 'discovery'? I know that you know the answer to these questions and you've already said you recognize it as an EA...but my point here is that you've actually gone quite a ways "off track" here. Somehow you've managed to convince yourself that it's not all THAT secret and it's not like you're hiding it from her or sneaking around...except of course that is EXACTLY what you're doing! So up above you wrote how hard you were trying to have a great marriage? Phoenix, a great marriage is when you and your wife know each other intimately. That's not just physical sex! That's intimately knowing the other person's thoughts and feelings, and right now you are deliberately not only NOT sharing your thoughts and feelings, you are hiding your true thoughts and your true feelings. That means your wife is building her life on something that's not even real and she doesn't even know it!! 

*So for assignment #2: stop hiding things from your wife.* That shows little or no respect for her and it does not allow her to know the real you. And based on what you've said, she WANTS to know the real you! *Start with the sex. Okay that is not an easy topic to bring up, I get that*, but unless you have really be "rocking her world" lately, chances are she may have been growing a bit bored herself or may be feeling like it's routine. *Start with something new--and again be on the same side with her not "enemies". *This is not about you making her do something she doesn't want to do...or her making you always do missionary even though it's not what you want to do. * This is about both of you picking something new you'd both be interested in and willing to try to change things up. *



> I'm not fixing something that's not broken. When it's TV time, I read a magazine or a book. Sure, she'd like it if I cared who won Dancing with the Stars. Do you know ANY couple married more than 25 years that are a perfect match? I've never seen old married couples act like newlyweds.


Sooooo...do you see it now??? She wishes you cared about DWS...and I get it you don't. But she wishes you did because that would mean you care about her. Why does SHE care who wins? Does that mean something to her? Does she wish she could dance? Do you see now that YOU have been ignoring her just as much as she has been ignoring you...and when she has this GREAT plan to watch show 1, 2, and 3 and then spend the night talking about the 3 shows and sharing with you, you have turned her down because it's too hot/cold/humid, etc.? Oooops wait. 

Apparently the fact that she has turned you down has hurt you and had a deep effect on you. Do you think maybe it could be the same for her? 

You wrote:


> ...Writing this down is therapeutic. It's made me wonder if instead of doing what I've done for decades - being selfless - maybe I should take a stand. Instead of saying 'would you like to go to <event>?' I should tell her 'be ready at 8, We are going to a play.'


I have no doubt there will be some here on this board who are strong "Alpha Male" types who will say this is the way to go; however I disagree. All this does is force one of you to do what they do not want to do. You've already indicated you will not be forced to do what you don't want to do (watch TV shows), and that if you were my guess is that it would breed resentment and anger. Thus force I don't think is the answer. However... I do believe it is partly right! This part: instead of saying "Would you like to go to <thing you've already indicated you dislike>?" I would say "Our marriage will not survive if we do not start doing some things together. I want to have some fun with you. I want you to have some fun with me. Now can we agree to go over a list of possibilities until we find one we both agree sounds interesting?" Don't let her think that the marriage will be fine if she continues to neglect it. Don't offer a list of just things you like to do....but don't let her turn down everything either. Let her make suggestions and not just of things SHE likes to do. Think outside the box. 

You wrote: 


> ... As I wrote earlier today, the EXGF and I both know what's going on. We both admitted to each other that what was meant to be a "How's your life been?" has evolved into a real and intolerable EA. We both know that we have tricked ourselves into thinking the other has no faults where our spouses do. We both said goodbye to each other hoping it will be the last time.
> It's difficult to stay away from the 'Compose Letter' button. It's difficult to keep from checking the inbox to see if ExGF has had a moment of weakness.
> 
> So.... Its really NOT difficult to keep from contacting someone you are still fogged up with? Please point me to that magic bullet!


Ah here we are at last! The MEAT of the reply! This is probably the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the assignments you'll have to do. This part is non-negotiable. You say that you and your ExGF are No Contact for now, but that it's hard to resist writing to her or checking to see if she wrote. Here is what you do, tonight:

*1) Go Delete that secret email account. Delete it as is "it is irretrivable and it is erased." 
2) At home, anywhere you have her phone number, remove it as is block it, black it out, delete it. 
3) At work, everywhere you have items from her, letters printed, etc.... shred them, trash them, and utterly 100% remove them from your life. 
4) Determine in your heart that you are going to NEVER, EVER under any circumstance talk to, speak with, write to, or have any knowledge of the other woman. As utterly and completely as possible you want to cut off every conceivable avenue that you may be tempted...up to and including never, EVER going to the library again. * "BUT...I'm a mature man, I can handle going to the library!" No you can't. You will be tempted every time you go to "just check." 

So that is the first part--envision it's like surgery to remove a tumor. Yes, the cut of the scalpel hurts and you bleed, but the tumor will kill you. Cut it all out out, or the tumor will regrow. If you do a clean cut and cut it all, it is conceivable you may survive (although with a scar). 

The second part is what do with your thoughts. So at first there will be all this TIME when you think of her, are tempted to write to her, or have a smooshy thought about her. At this point you are going to have to retrain your mind, and no one else can do that but you. Up to now, you have had a good thought about ExGF and then to justify that thought, you use a bad thought about your wife. You will have to make the choice to reverse that. NOW *you are going to have a good thought about ExGF and you are going to CATCH yourself, STOP yourself, follow it up with a bad thought about ExGF, and then end with a thought about your wife that considers one of her good points.* Here's an example:

...your mind wanders. You think "Hmmm  ExGF enjoys all the things that I enjoy and wife doesn't even want to leave the couch." You CATCH yourself and STOP yourself "Oh wait, that's one of those thoughts I'm trying to stop!" You follow it up with a bad thought about ExGF "Well ExGF may have liked jogging too but she was the kind of woman who had the morals to emotionally cheat on her husband, and if she's lie to him, she'd lie to me too." Then end with a thought about your wife's good points "You know that's one thing I've always admired about <wife>. She has always been a very moral, honest person. She's so very trustworthy." Then you think on your wife!

You wrote: 


> ...Yet a little more detail -


I love how you add these "details" when they justify how you've treated her, but before that they weren't worthy of being mentioned  LOL 



> Just like ALL married couples prior to my error, husband and wife each wanted the other to be more involved. Help out with the housework more, be more proactive in raising the kids, be attentive to needs. I'd get the once every six months berating about leaving socks wadded up after taking them off, leaving the toilet seat up, etc. And I'd honestly try to be the perfect husband, but would fall back into my old ways. ... ::snip::...
> As I began OVER 2 YEARS AGO to realize that I was reconnecting emotionally with the ExGF, I really did change my ways. When my wife brings food into the living room, I wait for her to finish her meal then take her dishware to the kitchen to clean it. If I have free time, I do housework. I do the laundry. From almost the first correspondence I've been trying to be the perfect doting husband. My guilt over this situation has provided the incentive to constantly think "What would make my wife happy right now?" There has never been a 'Come to Jesus' discussion between my wife and me since I reconnected with exGF. This has gone on for two years. I think it's been great because I've not caused my wife anguish over something as silly as wadded up socks. I'm sure my wife thinks it's great because she has (from her viewpoint) a perfect doting husband and father to the kids.


Did you notice something interesting here? You are lying to your wife and letting her build a world--her world--on what you know is false: namely that you are "the perfect husband." You say yourself that in real life, deep down, you only act perfect out of guilt and it has nothing to do with being loving. And despite how you phrase it, if you were truly thinking of her, you would protect her from building her world on a lie. You would help her grow as an individual and as a wife in the stable crucible of your marriage, where she can be her imperfect self and not be threatened. It's not loving to allow someone to berate their partner and not have a consequence it. It IS loving to set a boundary around yourself, let her know that you do not choose to have a life partner who berates you, and let her know she is completely free to choose anything she likes but if she chooses to have YOU in her life, she will not be able to berate you without cost. This helps her become a better woman. 

You wrote: 


> ...If I were to walk up to my wife and say "Honey, I can't keep this a secret any more. I drink a six pack of diet coke a week. Some days when I say I'm coming straight home, I really stop at the park and drink a bottle of diet coke." There would be ROYAL heck to pay. Now, lets imagine that I tell her the reason I've been so caring and attentive to her, and willing to agree to any decision she has made is because I've been writing letters to my exGF.


And yet...BOTH are reality! You are drinking a 6pack of diet coke a week and you ARE seeing another woman!! So in your head you know these two things, and you are purposely allowing her to build a world on lies: namely "My husband doesn't drink soda" and "My husband compliantly does what I want" and "My husband is faithful." So royal HECK to pay or not, you are controlling her and showing the ultimate disrespect by basically assuming that she could not handle the truth. 

So here's an assignment. *Today...tonight ... respect your wife enough to tell her one truth that you've been covering up and deliberately misleading her on. Show some trust in her ability to deal with the REAL truth. *And if you want to drink diet coke--be transparent that you understand her reasoning and respect her request, but that you disagree and choose to drink it away from her so it doesn't cause her to stumble. If drinking coke is a marriage deal-breaker for her, she deserves to know so she can make informed choices and not build her life on lies. 

You wrote:


> ...I don't think I'm willing to reset the relationship to a point even lower than when she'd tell me what's wrong with me every six months. Whenever I see something that can be done to make my wife happier, I think of all the letters to/from ExGF and go to the extra effort to make my wife happy. I'd rather wear the family apron than be told of all my faults. And without the guilt of knowing I'm in the middle of an EA, I don't think I'd be patient enough to be so attentive.


Baloney. I mean I'm sure you do believe this, but it's off track. In real life, what you mean is that you don't want to be yelled at every 6 months, so in order to avoid being yelled at for growing negligent again, you justify infidelity! Can you see how "bizarro"that is? No... if being yelled at every six months is an issue with you, then that needs to be faced and addressed...not avoided by committing emotional adultery.  Here's where some of the "Alpha Male" types have it 110% right. You don't need to be a controlling jerk back to her, but you very much DO need to speak up for yourself, stop being a doormat, and say "This is NOT okay with me." So for this part, please get the book "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend (from Amazon, not from the library). I even have a link for a PDF of the book if you need it. 


And finally, you wrote:


> my wife and I went to MC before we had kids. She had discovered an envelope I used to put what was left over from my lunch money budget. She found it after about two years of accretion. She wanted to know why I had all that money. I confessed that it was just a couple dollars a week over a couple years. She (rightly so) wanted to know why I was putting money aside for something. I told her I had my eye on a new backpack. She didn't understand why I wanted a new backpack when I already had one. I was dumbfounded that she would ask me why when the answer was so obvious to me: Because the new one is better.
> Anyhow, that single issue led to her demanding MC. We went to one session. My wife told the MC about her mistrust. That I was sneaking money away, and that I wanted a better backpack than the perfectly good one I already owned. The MC asked me why I squirreled the money away instead of just writing a check for a backpack. I said it was because in discussions with my wife prior to doing so, she was adamantly opposed to my getting a new backpack. So I figured I'd work toward gathering funds in a non-intrusive way that would take a great deal of time and only a little self-sacrifice. The counselor and my wife listened to that statement. My wife asked me "So you want that backpack so badly you'd wait for me to die before you get it?" I asked her in turn, "You would never concede a new backpack to me even on your deathbed?" She said she would never concede. My reply, "If that's what it took, then yes."
> Anyhow, the MC stopped asking me questions about my behaviour and focused on my wife's. On the way home, several days after, and to any friend who would listen, my wife said we picked the WORST MC in the state. We went there to fix MY problems and all he wanted to do was talk about HER. She cancelled our MC, said it was OK to get the new backpack, and life went on.


This whole story is a perfect example of personal responsibility. Are you saying you can't clean up your side of the street because she refuses to address her side of the street? Are you saying "Hey since she did this, I'm justified in doing that..."? The way you paint it, your wife resists looking at her own issues and contributions, but I'm beginning to see that very aspect in you as well. Soooo...rather than defending how I'm wrong and giving me a list of what your wife did, let me challenge you. Your wife's bad behavior does not justify your own bad behavior. The truth of the matter is that you made choices. YOU did it. She didn't "make" you. So the way to change that behavior is just the same: YOU choose to do it. 

So re-read all those. Figure out how you're going to do the "assignments" and get back to tell us how you implemented your plan. If you come back with more justifications and "irrelevant facts" you forgot to tell us before that paint your wife in a worse light, we'll know then that you aren't serious about ending this at all.

P.S. I did get your private message and I will address some of those questions less publicly.


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## KirkSpock (Mar 21, 2012)

Nice job Affaircare:smthumbup:


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I agree, great post AC. However, even us alpha types have a lot of beta in us or we couldn't hold a relationship together. I'm an alpha type I suppose but I agree with you that leading is not the same as dragging. Leading takes your partner's feelings and desires into consideration.


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