# This whole thing may have BLOWN UP in my face.



## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Well - Those who have been following know the story.

Tonight - I check her cell phone as supper is cooking - I see 2 texts from him this AM. One saying "Do you have to ask Jon or can you do whatever you want! lol Morning! "

And another one after that that just said "yes"

I was silent through supper. My son was going downstairs - She looked at me and said " What"

I said "you know what"

I then just said " What was your response to His text asking if I let you do whatever you want?"

SHE FLIPPED HER SH!T

Yelling at me. I was talking - though probably a little condescending. " You didn't delete any texts?" "NO" " He just texts you conersational items and a response without a response from you Via Text? " ( There were no Outgoing Texts to him this AM. ) " YES - SOMETIME HE'LL RESPOND TO AN EMAIL WITH A TEXT!" " Why wouldn't he just hit Reply on the email? "

It came down to - her pissed that I had looked at the phone - I told her she's showing no respect to me, or this marriage by what she's doing - she said I'm lying to her on not respecting her about the phone. Said I said I wouldn't look at the phone.

I told her I'd try - but that I don't Trust her with it.

I did Try.

She told me to get out of the house. I didn't. My son came upstairs with a book - she continued yelling. Saying it's me that needs to work on me. How could you do this in front of our son etc. Said she's out of here if I keep doing this.

I responded the same - Something about it's coming down to you choose him or me.

Anyway - I went to the kitchen. My son came barrelling up and said " DADDY MEAN" " I daid - ' did mom tell you to say that?" She piped up. NO! HOW COULD YOU!? Which makes no sense - as she was holding him - would've have to let him go. Just makes sense she'd say that - especially since I was talking and she was yelling.

Anyway - After - I went up to him - Said I love him - Said i'm not mean - why would he say that. " Mommy Say that" " Did mommy say that?" " Yes. " She came in again - I did not! You're confusing him! So I said " mommy didn't say that buddy." He got upset. YES SHE DID!"

So I just said 'go hug your mom.'

I don't know what's going to happen from here.

I said that since it's not working to figure this situation out by ourselves - we should go to a therapist. NO - You said you're going to try and do this on your own - so you do it!"

I said - well then - why don't we share the entire story with friends of the marriage. <Couple name> < Couple name> - ask them what they thing - Ask them what their boundaries are with Friends of the opposite sex?

You want to cause a problem! and share this!!!??

Anyway - I'm going to ask her to talk to me later. - after our son is asleep.

Going to say - lets sit down - talk about this calmly. As adults, As husband and wife. 

Oy.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Well ... now you know HER boundary.

She's prepared to leave you ... over a 'friendship'.

She's having an emotional affair.

Stop negotiating.

Make a counseling appointment and give her a card with a date and time.

"If you show up, I'll know what you want to do about the marriage. If you don't, I'll know what you want to do about the marriage."

You trying to sit down and reason with her "like adults" is going to fly like the Hindenburg. She isn't behaving like an adult, calmly or otherwise.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I agree with Deejo. Until she owns her behavior and that she in fact is having an emotional affair, nothing you do will help.

I had an emotional affair on my husband several years ago and I wasn't even attracted to the guy. I thought he was dumb actually but he gave me tons of time (as he was a stay at home dad) which was the one thing my husband has never been able to offer me. I didn't even view it as wrong at the time.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Again one of my trademark nothing else to say. Just voicing my support for what Deejo said.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

WOW! Are you sure your weren't actually talking to MY wife? This reads almost EXACTLY what happened to me. I read the phone texts, and the phone sexts. Confronted her, and she gets mad at me! 

Jonny, this didn't blow up in your face. This is exactly how it was going to happen, and it's following the textbook responses of a DS when you ask her/him about the affair! Right now, it's ALL your fault.

You have to take a stand, and show your NUTS, friend. No amount of whining or pleading or begging is going to work. In fact, IMO I think you already lost. I finally figured this out too (I think everyone eventually has to figure it out after going through it themselves). Eventually, I took a stand, and I WASN'T afraid of the outcome anymore. Right up to the end, my DS insisted we should separate, and I did everything to convince her otherwise. Finally, I had enough and said, "YES, time to separate". Then, she instantly got freaking pissed that I wanted to separate. I told her I didn't just want to separate, I want a divorce...there was no way I was living with her in this toxic household anymore. I pushed it right to the end, and then even after the fact, always indicating that I wasn't going to be second choice....

Know what happened...two months later, she came back, crying and apologizing, and then informed ME that she wants to try MC. We are in it now, and it seems to actually be working! Things are getting better. Now, this may or may not be the outcome of your situation, but the reality is that I was prepared to go straight through right up to divorce...and I think that fact finally bit**-slapped her mind back into reality.

Know your boundaries. Show that your a Man again, and you are prepared to do what you need to do to protect your boundaries, both yours and your child(s).

Take care, my friend. This will be a hard, hard road ahead of you.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh, and another thing about your situation. The OM in my DS's EA never ever shown deliberate disrespect to me in any of the Texts or emails I saw (I won't go into the fact that being in an EA with my wife is already being disrespectful....)

If I actually saw that sh*t about me in an email, I'd be on the phone so fast, using my wife's cell phone, and letting him know what I think about his little comments about me. (In my case I never did contact the OM, because after I decided upon divorce and was planning on sticking to my decision, I didn't really give a sh*t about the OM anymore).


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks, as always, for the words.

I didn't read these posts before proceeding with what happened after.

She got out of Sons room - I said, nice and calm. I need a few minutes to talk to you - please come sit down.

I won't spell out the entire conversation for you, but I started it with " This has to Stop. Both of us. We need to Reset, or we are heading to divorce. "

That seemed to really shock her.

I then went on to tell her that we need to have open, honest communication - on both sides. I didn't ask if she lied about deleting a text, but I did say - you tell me you didn't, then you might have, then you delete texts to clean the phone up - I told her " Just pick one, and pick the truthful one. Easy. " 

I also said I don't trust her - From things that are happening - I don't Trust you, I'm trying my hardest to move on - but when I have moments where I let those issues take over - and I read your phone - Things don't add up and it's justified.

Also - We need to find a way to communicate that's effective. No more blowing up, No more screaming, yelling - we're not children. 

There was of course some more talk about 'The Other Guy' - Her Friend. Me saying that this is a first, she's never had guy friends, the way it started off wasn't in a trustworthy or good way for me etc.

I am being fully honest here when I say I still don't feel there's anything really going on between the 2. But I can see it getting to that point, I can see it progressing to an EA if guards are down. 

it ended off with me saying that in the end I need to do what I feel is best for me, and for our marriage - and if she doesn't agree with that - I guess she doesn't agree with that. Even if I come out looking like a bad guy.

Again - there was more - but all in all - We kept it short. Any time she would try to divert to something else - I re-reigned the conversation in.

At the end - it was " Okay - reset. No more lies or hiding anything, We'll communicate like Adults, and we'll work on this."

Which - seems like a wimpy ending - which itt was.

But - thats how it went. 

She asked if I had told anyone about this. I said I had talked to my brother. She wasn't too happy with that - Wouldn't talk to her family about problems, wouldn't want them to view me different. 

I basically said he's an adult, and I'm and adult - he doesn't view you any different right now.

Who knows!

Anyway - good thoughts - We'll see where this goes. And I'm sure a lot of you are smacking your forehead. 

Oh - the other guys comment regarding me - it wasn't an insult - I knew that when i read it - it was the fact that texts were deleted around there. 

blah blah blah.

I'm still sticking to the plan.

Work on me, Better myself, Be a better man, Develop boundaries and be awesome.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I agree with Deejo. Until she owns her behavior and that she in fact is having an emotional affair, nothing you do will help.
> 
> I had an emotional affair on my husband several years ago and I wasn't even attracted to the guy. I thought he was dumb actually but he gave me tons of time (as he was a stay at home dad) which was the one thing my husband has never been able to offer me. I didn't even view it as wrong at the time.


Interesting - So what made you own up to it, What made you realize it? And if you don't mind me bringing up the past - What was going on?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jonny,
You are past 'why' at this point. Sadly if you don't hold the line on this she will lose what little respect she has started to gain for you. In fact the real reason for all the drama is that you are trying to "reason" with her instead of enforcing your boundaries. The fact this guy is having fun flirting with her does NOT mean he want to marry/support her like you do. The ONLY way she is going to find that out is if you tell her you are moving on and force "their" hand. I realize that is scary but the alternative is you WILL behave in a clingy/needy way until you destroy whatever love she DOES feel for you. 

Your wording says is all "this whole thing has blown up in MY face". If I was in your shoes I would have said this whole thing has blown up in HER face. Because I would be leaving HER. That means I would be talking to a lawyer TOMORROW. 






jonny said:


> Interesting - So what made you own up to it, What made you realize it? And if you don't mind me bringing up the past - What was going on?


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh - I should Add that I also said something along the lines of

" I know I said I wanted try to work on this and figure it out ourselves - but if this continues to be an issue - We will find a third party to lend some help, guidance in this. Whether it be me trusting again, or you with Lies, or respect in this situation "

Or something like that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BTW - you never should have promised not to snoop. You should have instead demanded SHE volunteer to total transparency and if she refused that you were going to ask couple 1, couple 2, etc. THEIR view of what is proper behavior in this type situation....

Oh well - spilled milk. Step up and make her choose. I am betting on you. The OM is mainly attractive as a fantasy not a real partner.




MEM11363 said:


> Jonny,
> You are past 'why' at this point. Sadly if you don't hold the line on this she will lose what little respect she has started to gain for you. In fact the real reason for all the drama is that you are trying to "reason" with her instead of enforcing your boundaries. The fact this guy is having fun flirting with her does NOT mean he want to marry/support her like you do. The ONLY way she is going to find that out is if you tell her you are moving on and force "their" hand. I realize that is scary but the alternative is you WILL behave in a clingy/needy way until you destroy whatever love she DOES feel for you.
> 
> Your wording says is all "this whole thing has blown up in MY face". If I was in your shoes I would have said this whole thing has blown up in HER face. Because I would be leaving HER. That means I would be talking to a lawyer TOMORROW.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny said:


> Oh - I should Add that I also said something along the lines of
> 
> " I know I said I wanted try to work on this and figure it out ourselves - but if this continues to be an issue - We will find a third party to lend some help, guidance in this. Whether it be me trusting again, or you with Lies, or respect in this situation "
> 
> Or something like that.


jonny,

Is this your cell phone account?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

jonny said:


> Interesting - So what made you own up to it, What made you realize it? And if you don't mind me bringing up the past - What was going on?


My husband found out. He confronted me and I saw how hurt he was. Realized he was considering actually leaving me and recognized what I would lose.

I was lonely, selfish and have always been an attention *****. He was working extremely long hours, our daughter was struggling in school and I was having to spend lots of time at school in meetings alone, driving her to tutoring, taking care of our then three year old son (he's now 10) as well. The stay at home dad spent countless hours focusing on me, telling me things I wanted to hear even if they were from the wrong mouth, etc.

I will tell you that my why is most likely not her why but I think she NEEDS to know that you WILL leave and you have to recognize that you should not and do not have to put up with it.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Conrad said:


> jonny,
> 
> Is this your cell phone account?


nope. Hers. It's up in June and I'm getting her to move over to our cable provider for a bundle deal - but she may fight that now. haha.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My husband found out. He confronted me and I saw how hurt he was. Realized he was considering actually leaving me and recognized what I would lose.
> 
> I was lonely, selfish and have always been an attention *****. He was working extremely long hours, our daughter was struggling in school and I was having to spend lots of time at school in meetings alone, driving her to tutoring, taking care of our then three year old son (he's now 10) as well. The stay at home dad spent countless hours focusing on me, telling me things I wanted to hear even if they were from the wrong mouth, etc.
> 
> I will tell you that my why is most likely not her why but I think she NEEDS to know that you WILL leave and you have to recognize that you should not and do not have to put up with it.


How 'deep' were you in? Were you flirting? Or was it just casual conversation? Sexual conversation? many times a day etc?

Thanks so much for the responses!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Somehow you're still apologizing to her...for not trusting her?
Don't apologize to her or tell her "I know, I know, i'm working on trying to trust you."
no. It's twisted. 
When she blame-shifts, don't defend yourself.
Going on the defensive lets her off the hook and she won't own her part.

My guess is if you take an action, she'll do something.
Make the appt for counseling, let her know when and where, and let her know you'll be there either way.
I'm guessing she'll throw another blame-fit....but she'll show up.

And if she doesn't...you'll be doing the right thing for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> BTW - you never should have promised not to snoop. You should have instead demanded SHE volunteer to total transparency and if she refused that you were going to ask couple 1, couple 2, etc. THEIR view of what is proper behavior in this type situation....
> 
> Oh well - spilled milk. Step up and make her choose. I am betting on you. The OM is mainly attractive as a fantasy not a real partner.


Yeah - re: Snooping part - I realize this now. We shall see what happens. I made my own bed - I'll sleep in it. 

Regarding making her choose - At this point, I'm not prepared to do that, because really - a lot of this is in my head, I know that. I will not hesitate to do that if I do feel it's progressing into something more. And something more dangerous to our relationship


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Somehow you're still apologizing to her...for not trusting her?
> Don't apologize to her or tell her "I know, I know, i'm working on trying to trust you."
> no. It's twisted.
> When she blame-shifts, don't defend yourself.
> ...


This is a great tactic that I will use I'm pretty sure. Unless I feel things turn around quick and swift - I'll do this.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

jonny said:


> How 'deep' were you in? Were you flirting? Or was it just casual conversation? Sexual conversation? many times a day etc?
> 
> Thanks so much for the responses!


I was very deep in and my husband actually found out on a day I went to meet him. I didn't do anything physical with him but we had sexual chats, flirting, etc. My husband found the sexual chats. It crushed him.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I was very deep in and my husband actually found out on a day I went to meet him. I didn't do anything physical with him but we had sexual chats, flirting, etc. My husband found the sexual chats. It crushed him.


Wow! Trenton, are you my wife's avatar? LOL!

In all honesty, I respect you for telling your side. It's another perspective on why these things happen.

Cheers!


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok Jonny,

No disrespect here, and I truly feel for you, but you have to stop being your W's b*tch. 

I think, reading your posts, I can honestly say I went through exactly the same reasoning and logic and bartering that you are now going through - with the "lets work this out like adults", "lets be totally honest with each other", "I'm willing to work this out with you if you are". Guess what! She lied right to my face in all her answers, and did it with a smile.

I would like to say that you absolutely take our advice, but I think you're going to go a little further down the bartering path until you've had enough and finally realize it. I think we all have to....I sure did, even after reading all the posts here, and many books on the subject.

I get it, though. You love your wife. You don't want to lose her. And MANning up means that your going to have to take that gamble of actually losing her, and right now in your head, the stakes are way to high for you to gamble.

The stakes were high for me, too! But after I fully realized my W was in the FOG, and literally played out this EA like a textbook, and my "bartering" was actually making me look weaker in her eyes, I then knew that I already lost the game. The only thing left was my dignity, and I played that hand with some hard love.

I wouldn't have believed my W to want to ever come back, after the sh*t she told me to my face...like she wasted the last 10 years of her life, her heart must have always been with the OM throughout the entire marriage, and that she literally HATED me. Wow! Those are some harsh words to get out of your heart after you hear them. 

I also wouldn't have believed my W to ever say, after she came back..."I have never seen you so confident, ever", "I haven't been this attracted to you in years!", and my all time favorite.."I'm just going to go into the other room, put on this new lingerie I just bought, and come out here and give you the best BJ ever!" (I've been trying to get my W to wear lingerie and give me a BJ our entire marriage...she always said she just wasn't into that stuff. LOL!)

Work it out in your head, friend. Again, I can feel for you and totally relate to your thought process. Just don't be a doormat.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh man, Jonny, even I, who doesn't have any experience with this, think you are being her *****. If I were with you, this would be the moment I'd punch you to focus you on what's going on. Please, just play the cards. It's beyond bartering now. Just freaking go all in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Jonny, I'm still going to take the time to reply to that other post and do my best to explain how I turned things around with my wife. Until then, you need another smack in the face to wake up here! This is not complicated.

You cannot rebuild your marriage with another man in the mix. You can't do it with a guy who's laughing about you with your wife. He's clearly flirting with your wife and testing the boundaries. This is not a simple friendship, it will stop any chance of you fixing this marriage right now. 

Soooooo... She stops talking to him, or divorce. No bargaining, no discussions or fights about her phone, rights to privacy or otherwise. This isn't a courtroom. This isn't about fairness or other such garbage. You guys committed your life to each other, shes either willing to make the sacrifice to make this relationship work or shes not. She crossed a line, so set this boundary or I guarantee your relationship is over. 

You cannot fix it any other way. You will lose the war with another man in the picture because you have so little power in this relationship right now. You need the space to build the power back. 

If this relationship rebounds to the point that its healthy, then at that point you can discuss the idea of male friends again, until then no male friends or you walk. You should tell her that if she insists on male friends, you take that as a sign that she is not committed to making things work, and you're not interested in a 1 sided relationship. 

You don't care about her "need" or "right" to have male friends. She is your wife, you have a child together, no friendship should ever be so important to a wife that shes willing to ruin a family over it. Ends now, completely, She should text him right in front of you and it should say something like "This is my last text to you, I will not continue talking to you outside of work related issues" or something that is to the point and ends things. 

The reason you are in this situation is because you have no power in your relationship. Its as simple as that. Do you understand how powerless and weak it makes you look to talk about counseling? You already know how shes acting is wrong, you don't need someone else to tell you, and YOUR JOB is to tell her when shes crossing your boundary. 

This is what you're really saying... "I need a 3rd party to tell us what is wrong here and make a decision for us, lets go to counseling cause I'm a weak man that can't stand up for what I believe in even though I already know this is wrong." or "I'm not strong enough as a husband to stand up for what I think is right so I want to ask other couple friends to get involved and tell us. Hopefully they back us up and you'll listen to them cause I'm too weak to have a back bone on this issue". Trust me when I say it only makes things worse. 

Do you know why you never tell friends and family about these kinds of issues? Because if you get your relationship turned around, it'll affect their outlook on her in a negative way. If lay down the law in your house and she decides she wants a divorce, then have at it. Tell everyone you know exactly what she did and tear her to shreds but while you're working on things, keep it to yourself. 

Getting back to things.. If you stand up you MIGHT lose her, if you don't stand up you WILL lose her. So what do you want? A fighting chance or have your balls cut off in court and your kid raised by Bob the builder? You deserve so much better than that. 

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE if it blows up. She can leave if she can't handle not having Bob in her life. You are not leaving no matter how bad the fight gets, do not walk away. This will matter if it goes as far as a divorce. If she chooses Bob over you, then she walks on her own, without your son and goes to find her own place to stay. 

Also.... You're not sleeping on the couch. You're sleeping in your bed and if she doesn't want to be near you, she can feel free to sleep on the couch. 

You're either going to see a huge change in your relationship for the positive, or your relationship was already over and you just didn't know it yet. 



I just thought of this so I'll put it after the end as an after thought. The more you talk, the more you'll screw things up. Keep your discussions with her to an absolute minimum tonight. In your current state, she will dominate and destroy you in any discussions and you'll end up wrapped around her finger again. 

If she flips out, thats just a power move to get you to cave in. Its worked before right? So why not do it again. You interrupt it immediately and say "My feelings and decision are not up for discussion. Either you end this relationship with Bob and focus your energy on our marriage or we're done". Stay on message as politicians would say. Talk about your feelings and thoughts and opinions on this and you'll lose big time.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Jonny - a slightly different perspective here. I think you are doing OK here. The only big mistake I see is promising not to snoop. First of all, I always say it isn't snooping unless someone's hiding something. In a healthy marriage, looking at your spouse's cell phone is just transparency and openness.

And I also wholeheartedly believe this is already an EA and will need to end completely with no communication between them. They are no longer "just friends." Her reaction showed she's willing to fight YOU to keep her relationship with this guy.

You didn't get into this situation overnight, and you won't get out of it in a day.

Make the appointment and give her the time and date. Give her the "I'll know how you feel if you ARE or AREN'T there" line.

Don't threaten divorce or separation unless you are truly sure that you are ready. And I don't think it sounds like you are close to being ready. And that's fine.

If things don't get any better, you will actually get to a point where you realize you have nothing to lose. Until that time, any MANLY threats are hollow/shallow and she will KNOW that.

Don't argue. Don't threaten. Read your books. Detach - create some distance. Have some patience. And DON'T BEAT YOURSELF UP. You'll get where you need to be.

Took me a year to understand that "faking" that I would be OK wasn't enough. When I reached that point where I knew I'd be fine with or without her - THAT is when she sensed my strength, got scared, and came home.

Hope it doesn't take you a year.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Appreciate the responses.

Out talk was our talk - I can't take it back - so I will be more aware going forward I guess!

Again - from what I see - there's no evidence of anything going on - It's just that it bugs me, gets under my skin, etc - So I do have to make sure it's not just my issue.

It would make sense that a 'nice guy' who relies on others for his own feelings would be affected so much more by things that may not be happening.

Thanks again.

I know a lot of advice is 'in your face' I like that - And trust me - I think about it.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

jonny said:


> Again - from what I see - there's no evidence of anything going on - It's just that it bugs me, gets under my skin, etc - So I do have to make sure it's not just my issue.


Her overblown reaction - which included a major fight in front of your son - is proof enough for me.

Strongly agree with those above who said keep any and all talking to a minimum - and DON'T leave your house.

Try to avoid arguing in front of your kid(s?).


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## Mike188 (Dec 29, 2009)

I went through all of the crap last year. I posted on here a lot. Don't take all of the advice on here literally and don't let it get you worked up to where you are bouncing around like a pinball. 

GO TO A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR. Get it all out in the open. My marriage is much better now. I had to get really hard and just not back off. Even though it is better, it is still not like it was. I don't know if she has changed, or I have changed or its just my perception of her. Even though its better I'm still not sure I want to stay married because she hurt me so bad for so long I may never fully trust or respect her again.

I would say to not let her walk over you, but I'm hesitant to say that because I would read that same advice given to me and it would cause me to go on the attack which isn't always good. Keep a level head.

Another mistake I made was to go to her with every shred of evidence that I found. It would have been better to just keep tabs on things. It's EASY to give that advice watching from my armchair. It is HARD to follow that advice when it is your own life.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Mike188 said:


> GO TO A MARRIAGE COUNSELOR. Get it all out in the open.
> 
> I would say to not let her walk over you, but I'm hesitant to say that because I would read that same advice given to me and it would cause me to go on the attack which isn't always good. Keep a level head.
> 
> Another mistake I made was to go to her with every shred of evidence that I found. It would have been better to just keep tabs on things. It's EASY to give that advice watching from my armchair. It is HARD to follow that advice when it is your own life.


:iagree:

I still think that patience is a lot more important than standing up for some boundaries that you are still in the process of establishing.

I too would often feel kind of "beat up" after reading advice here. My favorite moment was one night I called her and started really laying into her - and she just hung up on me. I had just reached that point where I was going to tell her EXACTLY how I felt (again), in part because I was so worked up from the advice I was getting here. Her approach (hanging up) was much more effective than mine - and I was left to stew in my own anger.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

jonny said:


> Appreciate the responses.
> 
> Again - from what I see - there's no evidence of anything going on - It's just that it bugs me, gets under my skin, etc - So I do have to make sure it's not just my issue.
> I think about it.


Jonny, above is a bad thought process. Even if nothing was going on, if it bugs you you have to address it. Your wife sees your weakness, is testing it, and will keep going further and further with it. You can stop it easily. This is really not complicated. What you think you are doing to save your marriage and protecting your child is actually 100% the opposite of that. That's why the entire board is yelling at you.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

coops said:


> The more you talk, the more you'll screw things up. Keep your discussions with her to an absolute minimum tonight. In your current state, she will dominate and destroy you in any discussions and you'll end up wrapped around her finger again.
> 
> If she flips out, that's just a power move to get you to cave in. Its worked before right? So why not do it again. You interrupt it immediately and say "My feelings and decision are not up for discussion. Either you end this relationship with Bob and focus your energy on our marriage or we're done". Stay on message as politicians would say. Talk about your feelings and thoughts and opinions on this and you'll lose big time.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Don't worry about the talk you already had. 

Yes, you'll move forward, but KEEP THIS IN MIND when you do.

Also--the point isn't "how far it's gone" and whether "it's all in your head."

If SHE is still indignantly defending her right to keep this "friendship" THAT is the point. That is not in your head.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

coops said:


> Jonny, I'm still going to take the time to reply to that other post and do my best to explain how I turned things around with my wife. Until then, you need another smack in the face to wake up here! This is not complicated.
> 
> You cannot rebuild your marriage with another man in the mix. You can't do it with a guy who's laughing about you with your wife. He's clearly flirting with your wife and testing the boundaries. This is not a simple friendship, it will stop any chance of you fixing this marriage right now.
> 
> ...


Coops. Thanks for the time it took to write all this. It's good stuff. And I can see your points. I'm not ready to go that far just yet - I'd be faking it. BUT - I'm not saying it won't come to this.

I'm not closing my mind to the possibility that We are done and I don't know it.

I'm not closing my mind to the fact that this, what you, and most others are saying, MAY need to happen.

I'm aware that talking about things may be screwing things up even more. This is a learning process, a growing process, that's for sure.

If I would've never found this site - I would probably be worse off.

My plan. Not quite sure. Which I know isn't manly or alpha - but it's true. But I'm not going to rush in guns blazing without some serious thought. 

Thanks again.

It's really good stuff.

And You can be sure I'll re-read it. 

And you're right - it's like I'm trying to get you men and women to help me make a decision that I have to make. Or that I need a 3rd party to say what's right and what's wrong.

Thanks.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Jonny,

I don't think it is over.

These guys are telling you they went through almost the same thing, and it wasn't over for them, because of the way they handled it.

The only way you may save your marriage, is if SHE thinks you are willing to walk away from it.

I KNOW how hard it is to lay down the gauntlet and ultimatum.
I KNOW how hard it is to take a risk.
But I also think she is deeper in than you realize.

When I first told my H "We need counseling," he had me scared that he'd refuse, wouldn't go. But I made the appointment and he went.

I THINK SHE WANTS YOU TO MAN UP. Deep down, and she may not realize that.
Once you SHOW her you KNOW you are a man who deserves better, she will realize that too, over time.

If she didn't care what you do, she wouldn't bother fighting with you and turning it around on you.
She'd ignore you.

STUDY WHAT THESE GUYS DID TO TURN IT AROUND WHEN THEIR WIVES PULLED THE SAME THING ON THEM. 
THEY ARE GIVING YOU SUCCESS STORIES. IT IS POSSIBLE.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny,

What coops is really asking:

"Are you afraid of her?"


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> Jonny - a slightly different perspective here. I think you are doing OK here. The only big mistake I see is promising not to snoop. First of all, I always say it isn't snooping unless someone's hiding something. In a healthy marriage, looking at your spouse's cell phone is just transparency and openness.
> 
> And I also wholeheartedly believe this is already an EA and will need to end completely with no communication between them. They are no longer "just friends." Her reaction showed she's willing to fight YOU to keep her relationship with this guy.
> 
> ...


This is practical, realistic, and very good advice.

Many of the contributors providing you with input have been exactly where you are, myself included.

The shared characteristics are eagerness to please, desire to avoid confrontation, putting the needs of others before our own with the belief that doing so will win approval, or make you look good.

Those characteristics don't go away. You learn to temper them. And as NG said, that doesn't happen overnight.

You will make mistakes. We all have. We still do.

However, in some cases you should weigh the input of those that have been there before you. We know the 'script'.

Your wife IS having an emotional affair. She is engaged in a relationship to which she has a strong emotional attachment. She gets something from this guy. In some way, shape, or form, this relationship provides her with something that she doesn't get from you ... and it may be as simple as attention.

If you need to snoop - do it. But for the love of God don't tell her every time you discover that she is doing the thing that you already know she is doing. I lifted a 12 page letter out of my ex's deleted emails from TOM (the other man). It removed any doubt about what was going on ... for how long ... and when it started. It contained graphic detail.

I did not confront her with it. There was absolutely no benefit in doing so. I knew she was having an affair. She kept denying it was an affair.

What I did do was use the information I had to consistently set up 'opportunities' for her to take ownership or deepen the betrayal. Care to guess which she chose ... every ... single ... time?

That is how I got to the place of acknowledging that trying to save the marriage was not worth my effort. Lo and behold, once I had consciously let go and started moving on ... she approached me about reconciliation. It's absolutely counter-intuitive, but absolutely necessary.

That is where you need to get to. In whatever fashion, in whatever timeframe.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

jonny,

I don't want to seem to beat up on you, but I have to agree with the posters who say she is having an EA and the only way you can restart this marriage is complete transparency, a "No contact contract", etc.

Like others I've had a happy marriage go bad, not due to an EA/PA, but wife deciding she could do what she wanted (work long hours, play with friends, avoid the marital bed) w/o regard to my wants.
I told her my concerns often these past few years, her responses were "they don't matter". Not the case!!!

Following long delayed dreams and early retirement I moved to the west coast, and started to get calls from her - "I'm missing you, I want to be with you". Telling her you'll file for divorce puts it all on the line. 

Is the OM married or have a girl friend? Contacting her would probably make the OM change his phone number. Flirting with women is a lot of fun until one's home life is threatened.

I think you should stay in the house and in your bed and contact several lawyers about your imminent divorce and let her know who will be acting on your behalf if she doesn't take positive action. I agree with those who say set up a MC appt. and let her know where and when.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My personal opinion, with no negativity or condescension attached; is that he isn't ready to try to enforce 'no contact'.

I don't think he's ready to put the marriage on the line. And that's ok.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deej,

One thing I've learned in therapy.

We see things when we're "ready" to see them.

Not before.

It does not matter how obvious they appear once we "see them".


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

At work - Haven't had a lot of time to read everything. I will - and I never get hurt by what's said - everything I read from here contributes to me being a better man a better person and ultimately being able to have a better relationship. No matter who I'm with.

This entire 'situation' is not detracting me from my path to awesomeness and confidence. It's not distracting me from the change I know needs to happen and is happening. It's not getting in my way of my goals and my visions that you have all helped me create, for as to who I want to be. 

It has been said, and I do think it's true - I'm not prepared or ready to throw down the gauntlet / give an ultimatum yet. I can admit that. When - IF it does happen - I will be ready.

I only started this 'transformation' 3 weeks ago. In that time I've learned a lot, I've grown a lot, and am more confident than I've felt in a long time. I'm still making mistakes, but I'm now seeing them as that - instead of being blind to what's going on.

I OWN. fully effin OWN everything that's going on right now. And funny enough - I like that - I like knowing that everything is my fault. In terms of enabling certain treatments, behaviors, mentalities etc. It's helping my growth to finally OWN and take credit for things in my life. Realize that I need to change for that to change. "Nothing changes if Nothing changes" and "This man I envision, the man I was before her - shows me I don't need her to be that man. " I probably messed up the 2nd quotation. I'm going to be that strong pillar, that stone in the relationship. I'm working on it. 

Like a Man.

I've made mistakes - and I'm fixing them - and I'm learning from them.

ANYWAY.

Today has been good - She called me 2 times today without me prompting it. TO share about things going on during the day. I've asked questions to which usually there might be a "WHY" response. ( How was lunch!? What did you do? ) - and have got straight forward, no hesitation answers. She's very pleasant right now - and I hope this continues.

My defenses are not down - do not worry good gentlemen and ladies. They are up. and I'm learning from them.

I also OWN that I may be drastically over-reacting to certain things. Emphasize "MAY BE" 

I WILL be going to a marriage counsiller with my wife. That I will take action on and make sure happens. 

So - I'm not off track, I'm not being distracted - I'm pushing forwards and working on me. For the betterment of me - as a man. 

Thanks again All. 

I do look forward to the day I can give back as much as I receive from everyone here.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Isn't ready sure sounds a lot like "Values her more than himself, and is willing to continue to take the abuse just for the privilege of her wonderful company"


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

btw that lost post was before I saw Jonny's reply.


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## r2d210 (Nov 3, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Took me a year to understand that "faking" that I would be OK wasn't enough. When I reached that point where I knew I'd be fine with or without her - THAT is when she sensed my strength, got scared, and came home.
> 
> Hope it doesn't take you a year.


Johnny, for what it is worth, these men are giving you very good advice. It truly changed my marriage...and it is NG's quote that sums it up for me. When I reached the point where I knew I'd be ok with or without her....everything changed. You have a lot to think about....hang in there....


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

coops said:


> Isn't ready sure sounds a lot like "Values her more than himself, and is willing to continue to take the abuse just for the privilege of her wonderful company"


Well, to be fair to Jonny, I think we all go through this to some degree, some more than others. I went though it, too. It took me 4 weeks to realize I was going through the biggest SH*t test of my life, and I was failing miserably.

Jonny, eventually, you will come to the same realization, but I do agree it will be in your "own" time.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

jonny said:


> Today has been good - She called me 2 times today without me prompting it. TO share about things going on during the day. I've asked questions to which usually there might be a "WHY" response. ( How was lunch!? What did you do? ) - and have got straight forward, no hesitation answers. She's very pleasant right now - and I hope this continues.


Ok Jonny. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but my DS did this to me too. Now, I don't know your particular situation with the conversations or your wife's attitude, but just be careful your not getting sucked into a Sh*t test and you don't even know it.

My wife, after week three and I started thinking and discussing more and more of separation, out of the blue started calling me at work and sending me emails, and they were very pleasant (she used to delete my texts and emails at the height of her EA because she "hated" me and didn't think I deserved the privilege of a reply from her). I mean, WTF! Nice thing to do to your husband, don't you think?). I started to get hopeful, too, seeing this correspondence, and she started to be more nice to me in person (she was still living in the house, but I went 180 on her so it was usually a little tense in the house). Holy sh*t, was I ever hopeful, and I was SURE this was a turnaround and I could actually make this work with her again. About a week later, I found more evidence that she was still deep into the EA, sending those wonderful "I love you!" and "Wish I was there with you right now!" texts to her "boyfriend".

IMO, I think she did this to "suck" me back into that 'loving husband" mode or something - I don't know, I'm not a therapist. Because if I was still pining over her, she was in the power position and I was the piece of sh*t omega that she could control.

Well, THAT was my turning point, because I new it was ALL BullSh*t!

I then told her I didn't need that kind of toxic sh*t in my life or this family. BAM! Your outta here, b*tch! 

Now, I had the power! Because I knew my happiness didn't revolve around her or how she felt about me. Eventually, she saw that I didn't give a damn about her anymore. THAT is when all of a sudden she was "interested" in me again. Yes, it is counter-intuitive.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

My wife did a similar thing. I went to bed cause I was tired and she stayed up till 3am. She came in that night woke me up and asked if I wanted to have sex cause she was "Thinking about me all night". 

Next morning I read the logs on her computer to find out her EA and her had been talking till 3am. Nothing really bad was said but its unlikely she was thinking about me all night. It ended with "I better get to bed or coops will be mad at me in the morning for staying up all night talking" and he responded "Just sleep on the couch and he won't know when you went to bed". Anyway... 

Had I not seen the logs, I'd have thought it was positive affection but turns out it was just guilt and an attempt to make me think everything was ok. 

She might be responding positive to your changes but be very cautious that its not a dupe to get you off the scent so to speak.

Edit: No matter how many positive signs shes giving you right now. Stay the course. Shes either positively responding to your changes, thus stay the course or shes duping you, in which case, stay the course cause you'll need it.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Alpha & Jonny,

This is more a vent than all that useful, but some may find it interesting.

Your descriptions sound very familiar, in my case my stbxw's EA was with her job and possibly due to a truly dis-functional family or chemotherapy 7 or 8 years back (thankfully she is a BC survivor). Over the past several years she became increasingly tied to her OCD and depression, but like many depressed people was in denial, felt all she needed were more Rx's. I think at one point she was taking three different anti-depressants and a host of other pills.

She slowly but surely lost interest in me, avoided our bed when I was awake, spent many hours daily on the phone with her mom, ten or more hours most days at work and found things to do weekends that I had no interest in - opera, women only parties, dinner with one of her crazy parents at a time, watching TV shows that appalled me.

I started telling her last summer I was going to move to San Francisco in the fall, she said she wanted to keep working and live near her parents. She told me if I wanted to make love to a woman I should get a girl friend or use Craig's list.

I'd been telling her for years she needed to be in bed with me while I was still awake, make love twice a week at a minimum, pay attention to me, spend time with me. Her answers were "I love you, I'll change", but the changes didn't last more than a few days, she kept getting stranger and weirder, staying up all night to make 8:30 meetings 15 minutes away, sleeping past 2 on her days off, going to bed at 2 or 3 most days, angering her manager because she came in very late.

She refused my request she start 1 on 1 counseling, she refused my request she see a single dr for several physical ailments instead of multiple specialists, she refused my request to find out why she was in pain when we had intercourse - so it didn't happen. She separated herself physically within our large house, emotionally even at the same table, and said my wants didn't matter.

I moved west in mid November, she continued to live in the East. I got happier, less stressed, decided there was no reason to return East for any reason and started dating. Dating caused several pleasant revelations!

Here's where my life paralleled yours': We had discussed getting a divorce long before I left for SF, at her request we decided to not do anything until after the holidays.

As December rolled along, she increasingly told me she missed me and wanted to be with me, I told her I didn't want her, I said I couldn't believe she would make the necessary changes and hold onto them.

It took a while for my words to sink in, but sink in they did. She's getting in touch with an attorney I found, I think we're close to settling the financial issues, I felt a very, very small degree of regret when I read her words but a greater sense of relief. 

As my dear friend and nominal big sister said the other day "She wants to stay married but has no idea what marriage is". It certainly wasn't being out of the house most days and evenings - including weekends - and when home ignoring me, being bothered when I said hello when she was locked into her computer playing games, replying to 100's of emails daily, or watching her favorite shows on a DVR that had HALT, REWIND, and PLAY functions.

Your wives caught on quicker than mine, it will be interesting to see how Jonny's life moves on.













alphaomega said:


> Ok Jonny. I don't mean to rain on your parade, but my DS did this to me too. Now, I don't know your particular situation with the conversations or your wife's attitude, but just be careful your not getting sucked into a Sh*t test and you don't even know it.
> 
> My wife, after week three and I started thinking and discussing more and more of separation, out of the blue started calling me at work and sending me emails, and they were very pleasant (she used to delete my texts and emails at the height of her EA because she "hated" me and didn't think I deserved the privilege of a reply from her). I mean, WTF! Nice thing to do to your husband, don't you think?). I started to get hopeful, too, seeing this correspondence, and she started to be more nice to me in person (she was still living in the house, but I went 180 on her so it was usually a little tense in the house). Holy sh*t, was I ever hopeful, and I was SURE this was a turnaround and I could actually make this work with her again. About a week later, I found more evidence that she was still deep into the EA, sending those wonderful "I love you!" and "Wish I was there with you right now!" texts to her "boyfriend".
> 
> ...


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

I can add my voice of experience to those saying that showing you're willing to fight for the marriage (and willing to walk away if the fight seems pointless) works much better than simply saying so.

My wife was in a long-time EA. She was either unwilling or unable to see and acknowledge it as such. The two of us would fight about it, to no avail. A major obstacle to our marriage hit last summer, which increased my dislike of the EA, while increasing her attachment to it. I believe her when she says that, over the years of the EA, it didn't progress to a PA, despite him wanting it to escalate from the beginning. But, again, the two of us fighting about it had no impact. However, he began to post replies to or mark as "liked" flirtatious status shuffle posts she'd make on Facebook. And, finally having had enough, I'd reply to his replies along the lines of, "Really? Have you even heard of the word 'appropriate?' I ask because you clearly don't know what it means.". Instead of fighting *with* her over it, I began fighting *for* her. He immediately blocked me on Facebook. But, say what you will about Facebook, their buggy code worked in my favor; sometimes his replies would still show up for me. And, I'd continue to call him out on his behavior.

My wife angrily texted me after I made my post, wanting to know if I'd logged in to her FB account to see if he was replying to her. I truthfully told her that I hadn't, and that, yes, other people reply to or "like" those same posts, but none of them have been trying to get into her pants for years (and not bothering to hide his intent)...reminded her that we'd talked about it recently, and she knew that's where I stand, and that if he stepped out of line, I was going to say something about it.

The following Sunday morning, she told me she'd had a dream with him in it the night before and woke up to the realization that she needed to do what I'd been calling for for years: cut him out of her life. She blocked him on FB, deleted him from her phone, and when we got to work the next day, added him to her blocked senders list (since he has her work email address). That was late November (we called it my early Christmas present), and in that time, there have been no further texts or phone calls showing up on our bill. Our home email is through our family web site, so I have domain admin...no emails from him there. She's gone a long way towards rebuilding my trust in her. She just started a work from home program, so this weekend, keyloggers will be installed on our personal computers.

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying that, as the cliche goes, talk is cheap. *Telling* her I felt it was a betrayal had little impact...*showing* her that I wasnt going to take it anymore woke her up to what she needed to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

Grayson said:


> I can add my voice of experience to those saying that showing you're willing to fight for the marriage (and willing to walk away if the fight seems pointless) works much better than simply saying so.
> 
> My wife was in a long-time EA. She was either unwilling or unable to see and acknowledge it as such. The two of us would fight about it, to no avail. A major obstacle to our marriage hit last summer, which increased my dislike of the EA, while increasing her attachment to it. I believe her when she says that, over the years of the EA, it didn't progress to a PA, despite him wanting it to escalate from the beginning. But, again, the two of us fighting about it had no impact. However, he began to post replies to or mark as "liked" flirtatious status shuffle posts she'd make on Facebook. And, finally having had enough, I'd reply to his replies along the lines of, "Really? Have you even heard of the word 'appropriate?' I ask because you clearly don't know what it means.". Instead of fighting *with* her over it, I began fighting *for* her. He immediately blocked me on Facebook. But, say what you will about Facebook, their buggy code worked in my favor; sometimes his replies would still show up for me. And, I'd continue to call him out on his behavior.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the great post - Back stories are very useful for me, and I'm sure for tons of others that visit here anonymously , or daily!

Your words are good - and the message is clear. IF it comes to that point, IF I find this is something that's getting out of hand - I will have no problem doing the same. I know the guy personally now, and I'll have no problem calling him out on **** that needs to be rectified / handled.

Thanks.


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## jonny (Jan 8, 2011)

A quick update - sorry I haven't responded individually - It's coming.

Things have been good - I'm staying the course no matter what - She shows me affection, I can return it - but carefully. I'm not initiating any loving gestures right now - Haven't said 'I love you' for a few days now. ( I will wait till she says it - I will reciprocate.)

Saturday i'll be out training MMA / Mixed Martial arts - Muay Thai kickboxing / Brazillian JuJitsu with some fighting friends. 

I'm still reading No-More Mr. nice guy.

I'm still on course for the best me I've ever seen.

I'll monitor what's going on, I'm sitting back so to speak. Just observing. Laughing more than ever with my son, enjoying every ounce of time with him that I can.

All the experiences on this site that the users have gone through - I don't ignore AT ALL - I read carefully - and I take to heart. And I will reread them all - again and again as i continue doing what I'm doing.

Tonight we're watching a show. She 'demanded' to fast forward - I did ( to get past intro) I said " Honey - you should be nicer" " Shutup. ( not in a playful way either. ) 

Anyway - I decided not to respond. " Can you go turn off the lights?" " Why would I do that for someone that is mean to me and tells me to shutup ? " 

" Don't treat me like a 10 year old!"

" Don't act like one hun."

" . . . I'm sorry. "
I went and shut off the light - came back - she was flailing her hand around trying to get me to hold it - I ignored ot for a bit - then took it. She squeezed. again. again. I squeezed back and looked at it.

At the end of the show she said good night - I said it back - she started walking up the stairs - came back and leaned in to kiss me. 

I kissed her.

I'm still keeping below her on the "Warmth" scale 

it's what I need to do right now - and funny enough - it's getting me more affection and respect than ever.

ALSO - When I do things - in my head I say to myself - I'm doing this because I want to, I don't need a thankyou. After a few times - I just have this confident air about me that I know she can feel and sense. It's calm, in control, and I'm not doing it to be noticed, or thanked. I'm doing it because I want to. ( Cutting up fruit - Keeping a clean counter, putting dishes away, etc. )

Might not sound like a big deal - but it was getting to the point where I needed recognition for everything I do - though I didn't give it for everything she does. I would do things to make others notice what I've done, was doing, or did. 

Relying on others to boost me up, give me that emotional hit of 'feel good' medicine . . . which only lasts a short time. The path I'm on - it won't just be 'hits' of feel good - it will be a contant supply - as It will come from me, for myself.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

jonny said:


> Relying on others to boost me up, give me that emotional hit of 'feel good' medicine . . . which only lasts a short time. The path I'm on - it won't just be 'hits' of feel good - it will be a contant supply - as It will come from me, for myself.


You the MAN, dude! I'm glad your self-improvement is going well, and you can FEEL the difference. I read that book too. I was a classic case of "Nice Guy" to the extreme. I feel more confident than ever, and am liking the new confident me that realizes my own happiness is coming from ME, not anyone else. And I don't take the sh*t anymore and internalize it like I used to.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jonny,
You are "almost" there. 

Next time: 
her: "I'm sorry"
you: "full eye contact - "if you are truly sorry go get the light" - do not break eye contact until she does - or unless you hear the distant crackling sound of hell freezing over

Because you are "still" letting her "words" undo her bad actions. This is a very bad pattern. 

Next time at the beginning of the exchange. "she gives you a command" instead of a request. You smile and slowly turn your head to her (she will VERY quickly learn exactly what happens next - YOU establish this pattern) and you ask in a soft voice "What did you just say to me"? 

Same thing - unbroken eye contact - let her respond. If she attempts to "escalate" you just get up silently let her say whatever she wants and then smiling "Good thing you are a female and my W - in a totally protected class physically - if a GUY spoke to me like you just did he would be lying in a heap across the room" - then just shrug and walk away. 

She does NOT want you to tolerate her bossy/biittchy/tone. Truly she doesn't. This is a test she wants you to pass. 

My W is "conditioned" - when she gets the "what did you say with full on body language" she immediately either:
1. goes into submission body language and I chuckle and it is over - whole thing takes 3-5 seconds max and does not alter my blood pressure at all OR
2. she gives me that wicked smile which means she WANTS to "spar" and then we do 

Fine by me. I know how sparring ends.....





jonny said:


> A quick update - sorry I haven't responded individually - It's coming.
> 
> Things have been good - I'm staying the course no matter what - She shows me affection, I can return it - but carefully. I'm not initiating any loving gestures right now - Haven't said 'I love you' for a few days now. ( I will wait till she says it - I will reciprocate.)
> 
> ...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

jonny, I want to say that it is quite possible that your wife is not having and EA, DA, MA or BA. She very well might just be struggling in life and trying to figure out where your marriage fits in. It's easy to project our own experiences on to yours and it's impossible to put in all the little nuances of your relationship on a forum for us to really be able to tell what is going on.

You type like you're a great husband, and if that type is not hype, I don't see how remaining a great husband is a bad thing.

I'm not actually a fan of the man up thing myself. I recognize it's typed out for men so I figure I must be missing something but I will give you an example of my husband and how he deals with things and why it works for us.

Last night my husband turned on the radiator in our room. I get overheated when I sleep so we had a deal that I wouldn't open windows (like I always did in the past) and he wouldn't turn on the radiator in our room.

Yesterday it was snowing out so he worked from home (major bonus for me, love spending time with him!) but he got cold when he went in our room and turned the radiator on. 

Sounds like no big deal but when I went to bed and was sweating hot and realized what he'd done I was annoyed because I was uncomfortable and pissed he broke our deal without talking to me.

I told him to go sleep in the kids room. I believe man'ing up would require he say no way he won't go, it's his bed, etc.

He didn't do this. He began to argue and plead his case (which I understood but didn't want to hear because he broke our deal and now I was hot and uncomfortable). I said, go away you *** ****** *** *** ****** you broke our deal!

Heh. He went and slept in the kid's room without saying anything at all. I thought to myself. Fine.

I turned the radiator off and began reading the book he just bought me which was really good. I then put it down and thought about what a ***** I was being and thought...damn, I miss him and want him to sleep with me.

I got up and asked him to sleep with me. He pouted a bit but took my hand and came to bed. We made love and fell asleep.

He really never man'ed up here. He was passive throughout it all which gave me a chance to think about what I was doing. Confrontation for me leads to complete stubbornness and resentment.

You know your wife better than anyone in these forums. Ask yourself, what does she really want and then ask her. She might not even now. Work to figure it out together but don't allow yourself to give up too much in order to please her. It's about balance really, like most things.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I don't see how remaining a great husband is a bad thing.


If you're miserable, ignored, disrespected, and not getting laid ... and your wife is fixated on another man, it's a bad thing.

Owning a mistake or error in judgment you made and accepting the consequences ... even if it means your hypothetical temperamental wife kicks you out of bed only to later come drag you back into bed for hot sex ... is not a bad thing


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> If you're miserable, ignored, disrespected, and not getting laid ... and your wife is fixated on another man, it's a bad thing.
> 
> Owning a mistake or error in judgment you made and accepting the consequences ... even if it means your hypothetical temperamental wife kicks you out of bed only to later come drag you back into bed for hot sex ... is not a bad thing


Right. Right. My whole point was that it's possible that the relationship he is in may not equate the norm. I want him to embrace what is happening to him and begin to recognize their norm which may or may not be "the norm".


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> Right. Right. My whole point was that it's possible that the relationship he is in may not equate the norm. I want him to embrace what is happening to him and begin to recognize their norm which may or may not be "the norm".


You ... are friggin weird and adorable. I mean that in a sincerely good way.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If jonny's wife was dragging him into bed for hot sex, I'll bet he wouldn't mind leaving the room for awhile.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Your example is somewhat poor in that, you already had a discussion about it, he agreed to it and it was a reasonable agreement. He then broke that agreement and pretty much deserved to get *****ed at. If he were to "Man up" in your example, I'd think he was just being an jerk. My view on manning up in that situation would be to take responsibility for his actions. 

Its too easy to look at your relationship and say "He didn't call me on one thing and I still had sex with him, so 'man up' must be wrong or have inherent problems". So I want to try and explain using a simple example to explain why manning up is important and why its generally the core problem most men are suffering from in their relationships. 

I get that there are finer points and I'm only using marriage in my example below. This is just to help people could grasp it:

Pretend every husband on the planet is judged by man points. Women do this naturally without even recognizing they're doing it. Just like you as a man would look at a woman and judge her based on her looks or other factors. You just do it naturally without even knowing why. Lets say for the sake of this discussion that the scale is 1-100. 

Every action from the tone that he talks in, how he walks, his status in social circles, or the way he interacts with his wife changes his standing on that scale. Each action will either, increase his man points, lower his man points or keep them in the same place. 

The wife, gives out the judgment of the man points. Cruel unfair world but get over it, we judge them just on different scales. There are other scales a women judges you on but this is the #1 primary "if you don't got it, nothing else matters" scale. Anyhow... now, every wife will give slightly different amounts of man points based on different things.

Make sense? everyone with me so far?

Ok, now every wife is different in how many man points she needs but every *average* and *normal* functioning woman plays on this scale, even if she doesn't know it. 

Wife #1 personal scale might be: 20pts for basic respect, 40 pts for maintenance sex but expect some EA's, 50pts for sex 3-4 times a week rare EA, 60pts for no EA's, 70pts complete love, devotion, lingerie and BJ's when desired.

Wife #2 personal scale might be: 40pts for basic respect, 60 pts for maintenance sex but expect some EA's, 70pts for sex 3-4 times a week very rare or never having an EA, 80pts no EA's, 90pts complete love, devotion, lingerie and BJ's when desired. 

Very crude scale, in reality its very dynamic and includes many more factors but this should help you wrap your head around it. 

So to compare it to the discussion about the radiator and having sex even though he didn't man up in that exact instance.

Lets pretend she is Wife #1 from above and his daily actions and life style (job/hobbies) have earned him a score of 65 man points from his her, then when she kicked him out of the bed and she probably started thinking "I really love this guy, I don't want to be away from him and fighting with him over a silly radiator" "Wow I'm missing him already, sucks to be away from him" *goes to get him and you can fill in the rest here*

What if she was wife #2 and he was still scoring 65 man points. Probably just would have let him sleep in the other bed and work it out in the morning.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Or not worked it out and kept him "in the doghouse".


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Right. Right. My whole point was that it's possible that the relationship he is in may not equate the norm. I want him to embrace what is happening to him and begin to recognize their norm which may or may not be "the norm".


Difference between you and my gf, and his wife. Healthy relationship. I can be a nice guy and treat my girl as a princess, because well, she treats me like her prince. Works out great. We also discuss troubles/problems we have we have and I actually push her to tell me more about her wants and needs. Sure, sometimes stuff escalates, but eventually you fix stuff.


Johnny's relationship is nothing like this. He didn't defend his boundaries, other issues, she didn't respect them or his wishes, stuff escalated, never got fixed.

Btw, quite liked reading your POV though


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think I might have done a bad job of getting my point across. My husband's passivity and laid back attitude is the reason why he gets hot sex. He gives me time to think about what an over reactor, emotional nut case I can be.

It's when he becomes stubborn and we start fighting in circles that I become more and more frustrated (for example, with his constant lateness and lack of time management) and I start trying to think of ways to escape. I hate that more than anything, anywhere, anytime.

My only point here is that every woman is different as coops pointed out above. He's got to figure her needs/wants out and where she is right now so that he can best implement the tools you all are giving him.


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## coops (Jan 24, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My husband's passivity and laid back attitude is the reason why he gets hot sex.


Man points. 

Laid back attitude can be seen as "unfazed" "Solid" "Masculine". All depends on how he does it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> My only point here is that every woman is different as coops pointed out above. He's got to figure her needs/wants out and where she is right now so that he can best implement the tools you all are giving him.


You're not wrong ... you're just premature. What she needs and wants comes into the picture AFTER jonny or any Nice Guy for that matter has figured out HIS needs and wants. 

I can't tell if this is the place where you presume the woman gets 'minimized' ... perhaps it is. But until the man looks at himself and addresses his behavior that leaves him feeling neglected and rejected ... there is no point to even thinking about what the hell her needs and wants are, because the dynamic will remain lop-sided and dysfunctional. 

Certainty. Clarity. Confidence. Boundaries.

Playing to her right out of the gate will lead to the exact same results he is already getting.

The only way your husband got know what sets you off ... is by setting you off. You acknowledge that his behavior is the very thing that reminds you which of you isn't being reasonable.
He's passive with a purpose.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> ...
> It's when he becomes stubborn and we start fighting in circles that I become more and more frustrated (for example, with his constant lateness and lack of time management) and I start trying to think of ways to escape. I hate that more than anything, anywhere, anytime.


So, its not only my stbxw who is always late along with major time management issues? This is one of the big factors that made me tell her to enjoy the snow on the east coast, while I enjoy SF's 50-65F and often sunny skies. Her constant lateness drove me up the wall, said to me "your time is of no value", got much worse these past years.

If she still had a libido things might have turned out differently.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

coops said:


> Man points.
> 
> Laid back attitude can be seen as "unfazed" "Solid" "Masculine". All depends on how he does it.


This goes back to nuances. Did you not notice the pout term? He does pout. I just read in another thread where the poster said his wife dropped a guilt trip about not knowing what to do with the kids after church and he had to go to work. See? My husband would actually take the kids to work for me and he wouldn't do it with a guilt trip either. This makes me crazy appreciative.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> You're not wrong ... you're just premature. What she needs and wants comes into the picture AFTER jonny or any Nice Guy for that matter has figured out HIS needs and wants.
> 
> I can't tell if this is the place where you presume the woman gets 'minimized' ... perhaps it is. But until the man looks at himself and addresses his behavior that leaves him feeling neglected and rejected ... there is no point to even thinking about what the hell her needs and wants are, because the dynamic will remain lop-sided and dysfunctional.
> 
> ...


I don't think the woman is ever minimized. I think the woman is the whole focus. I don't see these men as changing because they want more for themselves. I see them as changing because they want more from their wives.

Is my husband passive with a purpose? Sure but maybe because that's what works to get him laid and adored and as we saw on another thread recently, these are the top two on most men's lists of what they want in a relationship. If I stopped having sex with him and no longer admired him maybe he'd be looking for ways to change his behavior as well but would he be doing it for himself?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch said:


> So, its not only my stbxw who is always late along with major time management issues? This is one of the big factors that made me tell her to enjoy the snow on the east coast, while I enjoy SF's 50-65F and often sunny skies. Her constant lateness drove me up the wall, said to me "your time is of no value", got much worse these past years.
> 
> If she still had a libido things might have turned out differently.


Yes, and the message of "your time is of no value" is the message I receive. Although he has time management issues all around in all things, even with work actually.

If he was not him, I can guarantee I'd be running very, very fast to someplace warmer as well (cold as all get out here in NJ currently and I'm jealous!).


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I don't think the woman is ever minimized. I think the woman is the whole focus. I don't see these men as changing because they want more for themselves. I see them as changing because they want more from their wives.


Much of the advice given is done so with the focus of saving the marriage, and creating a more positive environment for both partners.

Not all cases. In some cases ... the man regains his sense of self, but it costs the marriage. Nothing wrong with wanting more from your wife, and acknowledging that if she chooses not provide it, then you don't have a marriage in the first place.



> Is my husband passive with a purpose? Sure but maybe because that's what works to get him laid and adored and as we saw on another thread recently, these are the top two on most men's lists of what they want in a relationship. If I stopped having sex with him and no longer admired him maybe he'd be looking for ways to change his behavior as well but would he be doing it for himself?


You are quite clear about what it is that your husband does that 'pleases' you and makes you feel valued and fulfilled. Remove your robust sex life from the equation, but none of your expectations of him ... and you have the exact recipe that you read over and over on these forums.

You won't have a happy, passive, husband for long were that the case.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Yes, and the message of "your time is of no value" is the message I receive. Although he has time management issues all around in all things, even with work actually.
> 
> If he was not him, I can guarantee I'd be running very, very fast to someplace warmer as well (cold as all get out here in NJ currently and I'm jealous!).


I read NJ and a lot of the country is about to enjoy another visit from mother Nature - you and the eastern two thirds of the country have my sincere sympathy.

On a more TAM related note I found her message about my time and others extremely disrespectful, especially on the two days a week we had agreed she would be home for dinner and the two evenings she promised to be in bed at an agreed upon time. Calling as she should have been within a mile of the house and saying she'd be late really p****d me off, even more stbx's not being in bed with me a strong message.

Does anyone reading this have some pointers about SO's with time management problems that destroy jobs and relationships. Why do some people act this way. I'd be interested in reading and learning something.

Here in SF my new friend is really good about keeping appointments, one of many aspects I like and enjoy.


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