# Conrad Returns



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Greetings all. Some 350 posts and a few good compromises later, Conrad returns.

Here's the thing. My exhortations to observe and evaluate are advice that I also had given to me. And, it makes perfect sense. Every time Janie and I take a run at it, we are closer than the time before. Yet, the definition of an "expert" is someone who has made every possible mistake. 

It's spectacularly easy to get frustrated and blow up when emotions are in play. That's what happened last night. So, after telling me she never wants me to think she doesn't love me and she can "see the little boy" inside and she adores me, she now wants separate lives and for me to leave her alone.

Yes, she's got pretty well known issues with anger. But, simply labeling someone you love as "BPD" or whatever often strikes me as an excuse.

It's actually quite difficult for abuse victims to accept love from others without fear. And, when a person experiences fear, they often compensate by wanting control. The first thing an abuser will do when involved with you is to attempt to shut you off from outside contact and from support. Isolation and weakness means that you will "stay" with them.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The mind of an abuse victim THINKS control will help the situation, but it's actually sabotage to the very love they seek. Tearing your partner down doesn't convince them to settle and stay with you, but building them up and making them feel like a king will.

You're all aware of the "joint" TAM account. In the rear view mirror, this looks like control, as Janie wanted to see what was being written to me. No one here has any doubts about how much I adore her. But, she does. And, as illogical as it might seem, that's how her brain works. I get that.

On July 4th, she invited an ex over for the celebration and ended up giving him a massage. She's in massage therapy school.

But, she's not ok with people I email with.

Of course, I should tell her I am totally not ok with that behavior. But, I merely told her not to make a habit of it and let her know I wasn't pleased. 

What you see here is after a couple of good weeks where things are going well, fear takes over and boundaries start getting tested. Demands that Conrad sign off TAM. Demands that Conrad send NC letters to friends from work that he's socialized with. Demands for passwords and logins.

Those won't bring security.

If I wanted to cheat, I would.

I don't.

At some point, I'm hopeful she will see that building me up brings far more security than tearing me down - and trying to prevent me from hurting her.

BTW - the tripwire for deactivation of "Conrad&Janie" is a relationship I have with a member here. The person who helped me the most overcome my own codependence.

No way was I ok with doing NC on that friend until I had veto power over her friends. On this, I'm firm.

And, given that (by Janie's own admission) she's spent 6 years as my adversary, I wasn't forthcoming about the friendship this forum member and I share. That's on me.

Yet, when you've spent 30 full years trying to grow up and someone finally helps you get the job done, that's not someone you wish to sacrifice - especially if there is no reciprocity.

I love Janie dearly, but we have more work to do.

So, to OVS, Script, UpnDown, jdlash, and the rest.....

I'm not abandoning you. We're actually learning together and hoping for the best for all of us.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

> It's actually quite difficult for abuse victims to accept love from others without fear. And, when a person experiences fear, they often compensate by wanting control. The first thing an abuser will do when involved with you is to attempt to shut you off from outside contact and from support. Isolation and weakness means that you will "stay" with them.


I have been guilty of this with Joe. Tried to keep him from his friends, prevent him from doing things he enjoyed. 



> Nothing could be further from the truth. The mind of an abuse victim THINKS control will help the situation, but it's actually sabotage to the very love they seek. Tearing your partner down doesn't convince them to settle and stay with you, but building them up and making them feel like a king will.


I did this too. Emasculated and demeaned him on a daily basis to try and make me feel better and to convince him he couldn't do better. I know now that I was so damn wrong. I'm trying to make sure he knows now I love him and that he is a good man. I am very ashamed of those actions now. 



> At some point, I'm hopeful she will see that building me up brings far more security than tearing me down - and trying to prevent me from hurting her.


I hope she sees this as well. It took me hitting rock bottom to finally realize how horrible I was. 

Big (((HUGS))) to you both.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

pidge,

I'm always willing to make good faith compromises with her on external issues. We can share an account here with no issues. I can give her all the logins and passwords she wants.

But, at some point, she should realize I do love her - and that her having control won't make her feel secure. And, the only way I will give her control of my life is if I get an equal measure of control over hers.

Security is a gift she can only give to herself. She speaks of how she fears the "other shoe is going to drop", and then she often starts digging and goes out and makes it happen.

It's a pattern. The sweetest times are prelude to the bad stuff.


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

one of us.... one of us....


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Unfortunately as you know, you can't make her realize these things. You are correct in that having been an abuse victim, one feels unworthy of love. People that were supposed to love and protect us, hurt us to the core. Makes it so hard to trust anyone. I felt like if I pushed Joe hard enough and he left, well, I was still in control. Know what I mean? Warped thinking to be sure but, that was how I felt. 

Hopefully she will be able to have an epiphany one day and realize what she has in you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Too bad it has to be such a one sided relationship.

I would have thrown her out for massaging her ex. 

But you know how I am....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> Too bad it has to be such a one sided relationship.
> 
> I would have thrown her out for massaging her ex.
> 
> But you know how I am....


Boundary testing is the norm in these situations.

Eyes wide open here.


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

sorry to hear conrad  dont know what else to say
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Conrad said:


> But, she's not ok with people I email with.


Aw, we didn't get TOO dirty .. well maybe that one time, but I was drunk and you "I'm not okay with that" me into .. well, you remember. 



Sorry to hear dude, really unfortunate to backslide on the progress made.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear conrad.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> sorry to hear conrad  dont know what else to say
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unsure,

I give plenty of advice.

But, underneath, I'm just like everyone else - warts and all.

Thanks for the support.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

So what are you planning on doing now? NC and observe?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

UpnDown said:


> So what are you planning on doing now? NC and observe?


I was thinking about that. The only thing I wondered is once they find a site like this and see all of the things done, do they consider it a game? 

Example, if he thinks he's going to go NC on me so that I will miss him, he's nuts.

I guess it goes back to the fact that the things we do can't be purposfully to get the WAW back. It has to be to better ourselves.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> So what are you planning on doing now? NC and observe?


She asked me not to contact her.

We are to give defiant people exactly what they ask for.

Before that request, the following was said, "I'm not ok with you having a veto over my friends and me having no say over yours"


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Ah yes.

Mine would get mad because I never responded to her right away.

Hated that I did not say hi and bye ..

Was giving her what she wanted, all it did was fuel her fire. lol.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Conrad, slap me with a 2x4 if I'm in the wrong for asking this, but did you W have a PA, or EA? I don't remember reading it. 

Feel free to not answer if that's none of my [email protected] business.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> Conrad, slap me with a 2x4 if I'm in the wrong for asking this, but did you W have a PA, or EA? I don't remember reading it.
> 
> Feel free to not answer if that's none of my [email protected] business.


She has surrounded herself with ex's for the bulk of our marriage. Always made it clear she had "alternate endings" available to her.

When we dated, I was feeling broken and a failure. I felt lucky to have her, so I didn't enforce boundaries.

We've had hundreds of discussions about "her men". But, she only will go NC with those she has no more use for.

So, we're at that same point. She's asking me for NC on a valued friend and I'm not able to ask the same thing - even on those relationships that have caused problems for us.

The tripwire for this was a FWB she offered during our separation last summer. I don't believe she acted on it, BUT it took her more than 2 months to go NC - and only after I threatened divorce.

Yes, we have work to do.


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

wow. i don't know what to say even. the inequality of her expectations boggles my mind. 
i understand it all to a point. i was in a very abusive marriage, had a jacked up childhood, blah, blah, blah. but there comes a time when you need to be able to step back and say to yourself, "these thoughts (or actions, or expectations) are not normal. they are figments and reflections of the damage i've been through."


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I asked because a friend of mine's wife had 2 affairs on him and it seemed she never trusted him. She would get mad if she saw a receipt in the trash and didn't know what it was. (yep, she checked) 

My W has always trusted me no matter what. That's why I'm not worried about a PA, or EA.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Hey lulubelle, what part of MI are you from?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

lulubelle said:


> wow. i don't know what to say even. the inequality of her expectations boggles my mind.
> i understand it all to a point. i was in a very abusive marriage, had a jacked up childhood, blah, blah, blah. but there comes a time when you need to be able to step back and say to yourself, "these thoughts (or actions, or expectations) are not normal. they are figments and reflections of the damage i've been through."


Lulu,

We were sitting outside on a pleasant night (on Tuesday, I think)

She was totally stressed out. Said she's "waiting for the other shoe to drop". All this time admitting she loves me and is really happy we have a future.

Of course, we hit the sheets hard that night and it was glorious.

But, retrospectively, it's apparent that "normal" and/or "happy" without conflict stokes fear. Likely fear of abandonment.

When she was speaking of the "other shoe dropping", I asked if it would help to see her counselor. She said she didn't think so.

I resisted the urge to say, "I know so"... because this has to be her discovery. After changing/controlling every external thing in her life, she may come to realize none of those things bring the happiness/unhappiness she thought. It's inside.

Only she can give that gift to herself.


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

southeast jdlash. where are you?

i wondered too if her lack of trust was from her possibly having an EA or PA or if maybe she had an abusive/neglectful childhood?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I'm in Grand Rapids. Grew up down by Coldwater though.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Remember folks... I'm a 30 year veteran of the pleaser/niceguy graduate academy.

By her own admission, Janie has actually seen herself as my "adversary" until last friggin month.

The idea that I will suddenly - as of June 16th - feel comfortable trusting her with fully honest disclosure - without testing the water? And, that I would agree to give up people who actually helped me - while she gives up no one with which I have a problem?

I don't think so. I have gone no contact on a couple of good female friends from work, as we both agreed to no 1 on 1 outings.

I thought that was fair and in good faith.

No way I give a veto where I have none.

No possible way.

I'm no longer a doormat.

Up... "I'm not ok with that"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

One last thing...

I've been down the road with being isolated from friends and the like.

I won't go down that road again.

I'm not ok with that.

It doesn't help me or her.


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## ImStillHere (Apr 25, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She has surrounded herself with ex's for the bulk of our marriage. Always made it clear she had "alternate endings" available to her.
> 
> When we dated, I was feeling broken and a failure. I felt lucky to have her, so I didn't enforce boundaries.
> 
> ...



So why stay? 

I'm not asking that simply to be flippant or disingenuous. I just honestly wonder why we (BS/LS) put up with all of the back and forth? Is it love? Hope? Comfort? Fear? What?!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ImStillHere said:


> So why stay?
> 
> I'm not asking that simply to be flippant or disingenuous. I just honestly wonder why we (BS/LS) put up with all of the back and forth? Is it love? Hope? Comfort? Fear? What?!


In my case, it's attraction.

And, it's mutual.

And, it's a very good question.

We've been separated for awhile and we average 4-5x/week.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This is not a marriage Conrad. It's not. 

Hell, what you have is not even a good friendship. No way I would treat a friend the way your so-called wife treats you.

I know you LOVE her, but lord man! There is a woman out there who is capable of doing everything this woman is doing for you...and treat you like a partner...and treat you with respect... and not have other men waiting in the wings for her... and not cheat on you... and not disrespect you... and not throw your demonstrations of love for her back in your face ... and ....

Do you want me to go on?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> This is not a marriage Conrad. It's not.
> 
> Hell, what you have is not even a good friendship. No way I would treat a friend the way your so-called wife treats you.
> 
> ...


Bandit,

I know all these things - left brain.

I'm "getting" all these things - right brain.

Remember, I'm one of you. Studied it all.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> In my case, it's attraction.
> 
> And, it's mutual.
> 
> ...


Big deal. So she's pretty.... There are alot of hot women out there who need a good man like you and who won't treat you like garbage. 

She knows this. Why else do you think she won't let you FB with other women.

Dogbone Syndrome....


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

I was reticent to say how sorry I was because I knew it was a very real possibility for you. 

I personally had a short two weeks of false R, and it was nice, but it wasn't the TRUTH.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Bandit,
> 
> I know all these things - left brain.
> 
> ...


Then give yourself a 2x4 lobatomy... Not an excuse.


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Lulu,
> 
> We were sitting outside on a pleasant night (on Tuesday, I think)
> 
> ...


i can kinda relate to that paranoia. even when chad and i had a picture perfect relationship, i always wondered if he was cheating on me, lying about where has, ect. it all stemed from the abuse. BUT i was able to shake my head and tell myself to stop being a crazy pants!


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

jdlash said:


> I'm in Grand Rapids. Grew up down by Coldwater though.


i'm in ******* heights on the border of royal oak!


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

lulubelle said:


> i'm in ******* heights on the border of royal oak!


not sure why that was blocked :scratchhead: is ******* a bad word?

ok, seriously? mad ison


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Matt1720 said:


> I was reticent to say how sorry I was because I knew it was a very real possibility for you.
> 
> I personally had a short two weeks of false R, and it was nice, but it wasn't the TRUTH.


Matt,

Things are still possible.

But, with each one of these reconciliation interruptus', the forgiveness foothills get more difficult to surmount.

This last time, she admitted seeing me as an adversary. That was a great start. But, it is only a start.

Being routinely respectful to me is a higher hill. And, it involves not demanding things she isn't willing to provide.

That won't be an easy climb.

Eyes wide open. @50,000 feet.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

lulubelle said:


> i'm in ******* heights on the border of royal oak!


I have a lot of customers over there! Nice area!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> I have a lot of customers over there! Nice area!


I really like *******


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

The *****'s in ******* are beautiful this time of year.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Matt,
> 
> Things are still possible.
> 
> ...


It took her all these years to realize that? how many more years is it going to take for her to realize she's a remorseless cheater? Are you going to waste your life waiting?


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad,

I've become more of a lurker around here, but I've been keeping up on your posts in the shadows. You helped me at a time when I needed it most, and I greatly credit you with the shift in my mindset regarding myself, my actions, and my marriage. I have the utmost respect for you.

That being said...I had to emerge and post on this thread. When you said the reason you don't leave is "attraction," I candidly read that line about 10 times. At the end of my 10th pass, I still said out loud, "wait, what?" I don't get it. I realize it's not for me to get...but...I just don't get it.

When I was a teenager and put myself in a stupid position, I knew I would get a lashing when my parents found out. But they were the first phone call I made looking for help to get out of the situation. I would never speak for anyone else, but to me, you're regarded the same way. We all look to you because you have become a source of comfort. You have the answers. You know the way. We'll screw up, yes, and we'll get a scolding for doing so, but we also have you to guide us back onto the right path. If I saw my mother or father in the same stupid position I put myself in, I'd have no one to turn to for help. They always know what to say and what to do. I know I'll be okay because I have them. I think we all hold you to that same, higher standard, with higher expectations.

I need there to be more of a reason that you're staying than attraction. There has to be more. Because if you can't get it right...how in the hell is there any chance that the rest of us will?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SVL,

If you read for content, you'll see that I didn't have it right when she and I got together.

The very reason I beat up on Script, Up, and the gang is I don't want them to simply "blame the ex" and move to the next codependent boondoggle.

They need to observe and they need to learn.

Conrad is a German name. It's actually my middle name. Krauts are stubborn and I run true to form. It was simply impossible for me to take responsibility for the death of my first marriage. And, as you've admitted you were rotten wife... I was a rotten husband.

Yes, my "niceguy" inside let her push me around. But, she was the female equivalent of a basset hound. Puppy eyed sadness and total incompetence managing our house. We had special needs adopted kids and I've heard the divorce rate for special needs parents is somewhere around 90%. Believe it.

I gave her $500,000 in a lump sum and she sued me 4 years later because she was running out of money. Of course, she's still enabling my son to work at Burger King and buy a carload of Apple's finest technology. But, his day is coming and he and I have never done better.

Guess who taught me how to best connect with my kids and that they needed consequences? Guess who showed me the deepest black pits of my soul and forced me to face all the little demons I was running from that I encourage you to face? Our soul mates are those that do this for us. It would be simply cruel for me to gain all this for me and simply say, "Gee, thanks honey... I'm going to go hit on some 30-something ass and show her the world." I could do this. My kids are basically grown and my daughter could watch the house. I'm a pharmacist and I no longer have to pay for any college tuition.

But, at certain times in this life we realize that we are more than our physical make-up. We are indeed spiritual beings. I am unable (currently) to walk away from the woman who was the catalyst for me to fully examine and get right with myself. I know why she was sent to me. I'm not understanding why I was sent to her.

Yet, I'm now the keeper of all this material that can help people get to a better place in their lives. What most here don't realize is that they're the lucky ones. So many limp through life and - at the pharmacy - we take note of how many elderly folks are literally HAPPY when their spouse dies. These are the folks that managed to stay asleep for the entire ride.

I see all of us here as insurance that none of us experience that sort of pain later. We're here to wake each other up - just as I'm at 50,000 feet hoping that mine will wake up as well.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

So why didn't you say all of that instead of saying it was attraction holding you to her? That's what I needed to hear from you. For my own selfish purposes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SoVeryLost said:


> So why didn't you say all of that instead of saying it was attraction holding you to her? That's what I needed to hear from you. For my own selfish purposes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was talking to the guys


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I was talking to the guys


Ah.  Always sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SoVeryLost said:


> Ah.  Always sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't get me wrong.

Attraction plays a strong role in this.

But, there are other attractive women.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Don't get me wrong.
> 
> Attraction plays a strong role in this.
> 
> But, there are other attractive women.


Of course it does. Attraction is what draws the line between the interactions of two people being platonic or sexual. But you're right....there are many a pretty face out in the world. That's why there has to be more to back the physical connection up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SoVeryLost said:


> Of course it does. Attraction is what draws the line between the interactions of two people being platonic or sexual. But you're right....there are many a pretty face out in the world. That's why there has to be more to back the physical connection up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And one has to wonder if Janie's renewed vigor for long-term reconciliation had to do with her discovery that I had regular outings with other attractive women (with boundaries).


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And one has to wonder if Janie's renewed vigor for long-term reconciliation had to do with her discovery that I had regular outings with other attractive women (with boundaries).


I know I would not have been fond of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And one has to wonder if Janie's renewed vigor for long-term reconciliation had to do with her discovery that I had regular outings with other attractive women (with boundaries).


Dogbone Syndrome. It has nothing to do with real love. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SoVeryLost said:


> I know I would not have been fond of that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's had one-on-one lunches with her ex's since the day we got married. And, vigorously defended the practice.

Sometimes I wonder if the only way for her to feel what I feel is to experience it herself.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She's had one-on-one lunches with her ex's since the day we got married. And, vigorously defended the practice.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the only way for her to feel what I feel is to experience it herself.


"I'm not okay with that."

Maybe consider having that permanently inked on your forehead for her to see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bandit,
Conrad knows that there is ZERO chance of he and his W having a happily ever after marriage. He knows. 




bandit.45 said:


> This is not a marriage Conrad. It's not.
> 
> Hell, what you have is not even a good friendship. No way I would treat a friend the way your so-called wife treats you.
> 
> ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I didn't know much of your back-story Conrad, simply that the advise you often offer here is interesting and valuable to read.

I am sorry to hear you and Janie are at this place. I'm not sorry if it's the right thing for you both but I am sorry to hear it nonetheless.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Conrad, isn't it possible that you got what you needed from the relationship and it is now time to move on? I agree that we choose partners who will teach us the most important lessons. This is the entire basis of the Imago approach (Harville Hendrix.) 

I have to agree with Bandit...not seeing how the pros outweigh the cons at present time. Do you have such little esteem for yourself that you can't see an emotionally healthy, truly respectful, mutually agreeable woman in your future?

And 4-5x per week during separation? REALLY? If I or any of were doing this you would be 2x4-ing 24/7.

I recognize that you are not without faults and still have much to work through. But some things are obvious. No brainers. This is one of them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MyselfAgain said:


> Conrad, isn't it possible that you got what you needed from the relationship and it is now time to move on? I agree that we choose partners who will teach us the most important lessons. This is the entire basis of the Imago approach (Harville Hendrix.)
> 
> I have to agree with Bandit...not seeing how the pros outweigh the cons at present time. Do you have such little esteem for yourself that you can't see a truly respectful, mutually agreeable woman in your future?
> 
> ...


MA,

It's possible. Time will tell. RDJ's motto is "submit or quit". I haven't seen either - yet.

As for 2x4's for guys getting hot sex from a STBXW? I don't recall ever criticizing anyone for that. Isn't the STBXW in this forum typically banging posOM 4-5x/week? 

You do need to realize that women can have sex 365 days/year - with no difficulty. Not how it works for us.

And, I'm enamored with this woman. She is my soul mate. I'm not sure we'll make it, but some moments do sparkle.

I freely admit, if the last "recon shot" we had was merely a visceral reaction by her to me dating?... then you're likely right. As I've mentioned to Script and others, once you see backtracking, you know to pull back - for now. But, I'm still observing. I practice what I preach.


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> Conrad, isn't it possible that you got what you needed from the relationship and it is now time to move on?


Conrad, I don't know much of your backstory and very little of you firsthand in my 1 week here. So i'm not really qualified. But it looks like all of your friends are throwing a flag at you. And your comments in this thread seem at odds with the advice you wield elsewhere. You spend a lot of time defending what your wife may or may not do; and marginal if any talking about how to move forward for yourself.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

.... as hard as this is to say this Conrad .... because I love ya dude.... But you are owning her mistakes and justifying her behaviours by saying you are learning things from what is happening through all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Matt1720 (May 7, 2012)

Didn't you have a drop dead date of next month? Does that get reset? Why?


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Orpheus, great insight for a newbie! I think you're going to do juuust fine here. 

Up, great insight for a drunk dude. Just kidding. I concur with this as well.

And just to wrap up the topic...I do not see how sleeping with one's spouse while separated is ever helpful. All it does is cause mixed messages and continued bonding. How can one truly observe if one can't even physically detach for a few months???? How can you stay at 50,000 ft. when she clearly has you tethered to her p****?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> .... as hard as this is to say this Conrad .... because I love ya dude.... But you are owning her mistakes and justifying her behaviours by saying you are learning things from what is happening through all of this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How do you figure Up?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Matt1720 said:


> Didn't you have a drop dead date of next month? Does that get reset? Why?


Matt,

Good memory, but it's November.

And, of course, after telling me that she didn't want to contact me, I get an email from her today pledging her faithfulness through November. I speak often of "crumbs of love"

This would qualify as "crumbs of commitment".


----------



## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

It just feels like you are making excuses for her behaviour by saying she is slowly getting it while you learn a lot more about yourself in the process and see all this 'growth' as a way of putting up with some of the things she is doing.

I could be wrong, but that's the theme I see in this thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> It just feels like you are making excuses for her behaviour by saying she is slowly getting it while you learn a lot more about yourself in the process and see all this 'growth' as a way of putting up with some of the things she is doing.
> 
> I could be wrong, but that's the theme I see in this thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Up,

I see it as me breaking my codependence on her.

As I reviewed the events of the past 3-4 weeks, a pattern emerged. Glorious reunion. Lots of happy talk. We agreed to see each other every other day. I could have lived like that for a long long time.

Within 2 weeks, I started to hear about things she was "having a problem with" and they - without exception - involved things I was doing that she wished would stop. She saw a few PM's where I referred to emotionally broken spouses as "them". She took offense to this. We had a discussion. She demanded I quit the forum. I refused... dual account was the compromise.

She wanted to shut down this account, so she wanted the password. I cleared PM's and she remarked on that. I told her I wasn't about to have her dig through 6 months worth of correspondence that friends had sent to me and then grill me on it.

You see the pattern here Up?

Her internal compass still craves control. She thinks it will make her secure if she can stop me from living my own life.

What she is failing to see is that I would give her the world if she would just set me free to do it.

She did catch me lying to her. As I previously indicated, I do have a very strong association with another recovering codependent here. When she figured out I wasn't completely clean (which I completely own and have apologized for), she demanded no contact.

For six years, I have offered the idea that we should each have a "veto" over opposite sex friends that cause problems for the partner. I've gotten nowhere with that - including the one she offered FWB.... first agreeing to go No contact... then not doing it for ten weeks.

At that point, my internal firefighters basically lost control and I was yelling at her. Not good. The evening degenerated from there.

Up... I'm observing. There's a clear pattern here. Once things get "normal" and "good" for me, it's like my relaxation threatens her. She starts "finding" things she needs to control. And, there is precious little reciprocity when it comes to friends of the opposite sex.

All of her male friends "don't like me".

I don't wonder why. It's clearly "ok" for them to badmouth me however they wish when she's around. They merely want their line ticket and a(nother) shot at getting in her pants.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Dude your wife is immoral. Why go through this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

You clearly aren't okay with how she interacts with her exes and I see a lot of similarities between ours. That need for the attention of the opposite sex, especially exes isn't healthy at all.

They will never feel 'fulfilled' because they believe each one of then can offer something different than the other.

I had a really good talk with my brothers girlfriend last night while he was doing some running around. We don't know each other very well and she hardly talked to my ex, but it was insane how accurate she was describing the type of person she is.

Do you know how many people have compared her behaviour to that of a 17 year old girl? I can no longer chalk that up to people simply hating on her.

You can observe as much as you want, just don't keep letting her come and go.

She gets scared of you being calm, relaxed and actually okay with the drama free life. How is that ever going to go away?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

UpnDown said:


> You clearly aren't okay with how she interacts with her exes and I see a lot of similarities between ours. That need for the attention of the opposite sex, especially exes isn't healthy at all.
> 
> They will never feel 'fulfilled' because they believe each one of then can offer something different than the other.
> 
> ...


Conrad I actually agree with Updown- I know you think she is your soul mate but REALLY would your soul mate treat you like this?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Up,

Again... with "gusto" this time.

Interacting with her helps me work on me.

IF.... she decides to actually submit to the relationship at some point, all the better.

If I finish my work and things are still the same?

You know the ending.

She was sent into my life to teach me. Believe me when I tell you the reaction I'm getting "across the board" in every other corner of my life is 180 degrees different than it was one short year ago. That's not accidental.

It's also the reason I'm able to write with such clarity and power here. If you look at my old stuff, I just parroted MEM and some of the other alpha guys.

What you get here is from my heart - and from my own experience.

So, in a way, she's helping you too


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Uh......okay. 

Thanks but I don't want her help. 

Are you sure you're not on any medications?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> Conrad I actually agree with Updown- I know you think she is your soul mate but REALLY would your soul mate treat you like this?


Unsure,

Have you read what I think a soul mate is?


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Up,
> 
> Again... with "gusto" this time.
> 
> ...



Maybe I missed it but do you have a time limit on all this Conrad? 

Im mean working on yourself and learning is wonderful but there is something to say for going out and LIVING...


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Unsure,
> 
> Have you read what I think a soul mate is?


No I dont think I have.. enlighten me


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from. I honestly do... I guess I just don't agree with it. "I'm not okay with it."

It just sounds and feels to me that while you are observing and letting her freely walk away without resistance, then once November comes and things aren't noticeably different, will you end it?

Or will you see any sign of possible progress as a reason to extend your deadline.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> No I dont think I have.. enlighten me


We all know the movie version. But, as I've worked through this, I have come to believe a different version.

A soul mate is "the" person that forces you to face the deepest blackest parts of yourself... the parts you try to hide from the world... the parts you run from and conceal.

Quite often it's the passion for this person and the will to change that passion invokes that puts you in a steel cage match with yourself. You simply "must" overcome your issues to give yourself the best possible chance of being with the object of your desire.

There is no guarantee you will be able to stay with this person. But, your life is forever unalterably changed as a result of their presence. Your outlook. Your bearing. Your elan.

This is what I've experienced - and continue to experience.

The passion I have for her is the only force strong enough to actually make me face me. And, I am a formidable foe.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> Don't get me wrong, I see where you are coming from. I honestly do... I guess I just don't agree with it. "I'm not okay with it."
> 
> It just sounds and feels to me that while you are observing and letting her freely walk away without resistance, then once November comes and things aren't noticeably different, will you end it?
> 
> ...


Up,

It's impossible for you to "not be ok" with my feelings. They're mine. Not yours

I am letting her walk away without resistance. That's exactly what you should do with yours.

November is coming. I did see her admit she has been my adversary for 6 full years. That's a good start. I'll bet Pidge will back me up on that. But, it's only a start.

We clearly have some ground to cover on ex's and reciprocity associated with opposite sex friendships. If she suddenly sees the light on that? Who knows?

But, the key in November will be how I feel about me.

I will not be having guilt about the idea that "I figured it out" and then cut and ran.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Picture this, this is what I see right now.

Imagine there was a ball, one of those workout balls you see at gyms. 

That ball represents your old nice guy habits, codependency etc.

You are hunched over this ball, arms out like you are protecting it from getting crushed by something that is falling behind you.

What you represent in this scenario is the 'new' you., with all your new life tools and everything you have learnt.

Now, what exactly is making you protect that ball?

The weight of your exes continued failed attempts to derail everything anytime she isn't in control.

As soon as you get comfortable with how things are going, she pushes down even harder and what you are saying is "as long as I'm standing strong in my beliefs and learning as I do it, it's okay"

So when are you going to step out of the way and let her crash face first into the old you who no longer can support putting up with her crap?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orpheus (Jul 6, 2012)

So, by "soul mate" you mean adversary?


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## Traggy (Jan 26, 2012)

Had an ex over and gave him a massage? 

What? Oh she is a massage therapist.

Dude, I am not sure how this is helping you? 

Can you please go back and read your post on broken people and how they can not be fixed? Really read it. In fact, read it over and over again.

You have grown enough through this woman, she has made you a better person. What the hell else can you possibly be learning from this? How to waste your life and time? How to be in a push pull relationship? How to be married to someone who is insecure and controlling? 

If you really want to put a sick twist on this.. Stop using her for your own gain.

Love you man!


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> We all know the movie version. But, as I've worked through this, I have come to believe a different version.
> 
> A soul mate is "the" person that forces you to face the deepest blackest parts of yourself... the parts you try to hide from the world... the parts you run from and conceal.
> 
> ...


That is a very beautiful sentiment Conrad, and all of us here need self-refection. But again I ask you when do you go out and start living? Is it November? And as Updown said are you really going to be able to walk away or just extend it? ( Im not trying to cast stones Conrad but I have done that same thing, taken glimmers of hope or crumbs and used that as an excuse to stay in) Because staying at 50,000 ft view and observing is not living.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Orpheus said:


> So, by "soul mate" you mean adversary?


Do you know that the Hebrew words for spouse and adversary are the same exact word?

Somethings never really change


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> That is a very beautiful sentiment Conrad, and all of us here need self-refection. But again I ask you when do you go out and start living? Is it November? And as Updown said are you really going to be able to walk away or just extend it? ( Im not trying to cast stones Conrad but I have done that same thing, taken glimmers of hope or crumbs and used that as an excuse to stay in) Because staying at 50,000 ft view and observing is not living.


Unsure,

I've been through 2 marriages.

When I see MyselfAgain's admonition to find a woman who won't do these things to me, I realize that's up to me.

Because all people are capable of abusing others - if allowed. And, people do things because they can.

I'm a Christian and a believer. I do believe in repentance and forgiveness. I'm also a healthcare professional and nothing gives me greater satisfaction than healing.

And, yes, the healing arts are filled to the brim with codependency.

Heartsbeating and I have had several exchanges on "progress" in relationships and not going backwards. This is the stuff we live for.

I will end this when/if I'm ready. Part of that calculation is when I feel confident that there's no gain in staying.

I appreciate all the concern.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

Okay then, if this is based off of getting self healing, reflection and knowledge for the future... then are you not using her in her given state for selfish reasons?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

lulubelle said:


> not sure why that was blocked :scratchhead: is ******* a bad word?
> 
> ok, seriously? mad ison


Let's see what else is blocked: Detroit, Novi, Southfield, Hamtramck, ...? Just *******?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> Okay then, if this is based off of getting self healing, reflection and knowledge for the future... then are you not using her in her given state for selfish reasons?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Up,

The world is about selfishness.

If there was nothing in it for her, she wouldn't be involved.

All your altruistic behavior towards your ex... your enabling...

That's all selfish too.

I do things for her now with no expectation of anything.

Where I'm still working on is my own anger and resentment associated with her demanding things from me which she has never provided - and currently has no intention of providing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Shaggy said:


> Let's see what else is blocked: Detroit, Novi, Southfield, Hamtramck, ...? Just *******?


Wasn't someone named Mad'ison banned for something?


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

And one more thing. You are at 50,000 feet yes?

I want you to get to 100,000 feet.

What do you see?

Want to know what I see?

I see you in the same pool as the other exes that she keeps around her.

You just happen to want more than getting in her pants.

So really, instead of wearing a grey shirt like all the others.

You have a blue one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

UpnDown said:


> And one more thing. You are at 50,000 feet yes?
> 
> I want you to get to 100,000 feet.
> 
> ...


You think I don't know that?

Remember, this is about me... not her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Traggy said:


> Had an ex over and gave him a massage?
> 
> What? Oh she is a massage therapist.
> 
> ...


Traggy,

You are right. They cannot be fixed - unless they do it.

Love you too.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Only you can make that decision to move on and file a divorce or not. I feel for you more then you could imagine. It's not easy. 

If more people had your commitment and didn't just move on, we wouldn't have half as many people on this forum.

Everyone wants to just move on and try something new. As long as you feel like you can emotionally handle it, then I applaud you. Just don't get caught up blaming yourself or trying to fix her again. Simply pray for her and that God will soften her heart.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jdlash said:


> Only you can make that decision to move on and file a divorce or not. I feel for you more then you could imagine. It's not easy.
> 
> If more people had your commitment and didn't just move on, we wouldn't have half as many people on this forum.
> 
> Everyone wants to just move on and try something new. As long as you feel like you can emotionally handle it, then I applaud you. Just don't get caught up blaming yourself or trying to fix her again. Simply pray for her and that God will soften her heart.


I would appreciate it if you would pray for the same thing.


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

I sure will. Don't forget my W too. By the way, I added a picture of what were working on! If you friend request me, you can see it.


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

You know Conrad why we are all jumping in here- it cause we care about you and you have helped all of us so much. I know you will do what you need to do in your own time and when you are ready, not before. I did it when I was ready and im glad I did because I have no regrets.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> You know Conrad why we are all jumping in here- it cause we care about you and you have helped all of us so much. I know you will do what you need to do in your own time and when you are ready, not before. I did it when I was ready and im glad I did because I have no regrets.


Unsure,

I submitted this thread for a purpose. I welcome the exchange. No one should be worried about it.


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## UpnDown (May 4, 2012)

The one thing I don't want you to feel in regards to all of us coming at you in sorts is the I for one don't question what you have done for me. Based on you have told us here in this thread.

I know you helping others is important to you. You have given countless hours of your time to helping others.

But what you are getting right now is the reflection of your help and time back at you. From all different perspectives.

We are holding the mirrors up, not out of judgement, but out of respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Conrad, not much for me to say here except that I hope for the best for you and I really admire how you can be the master of tough love, and still be vulnerable/genuine with your own situation. 

I understood where you were going with that soul mate definition a few pages back, given me something to think about.

All the best.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Sorry about this brother. 

They don't want us to leave them but do all the right stuff to force us to leave them. WTF!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> Sorry about this brother.
> 
> They don't want us to leave them but do all the right stuff to force us to leave them. WTF!


You do remember the quote "Wrong is right", don't you?


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> You do remember the quote "Wrong is right", don't you?


Yes I do. 

I don't know but it almost feels like everytime we give them a chance we're getting on board a plane to hell. We're entering their game. It almost never ends good.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

This thread ruined me.

I have little to say.

f*** this life.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> SVL,
> 
> If you read for content, you'll see that I didn't have it right when she and I got together.
> 
> ...


Conrad, I respect y you a lot, but I gotta challenge you on your definition of "soul mate." You say she helped you face your demons. No doubt this is true. But only because she treated you badly. Sometimes, bad experiences being out the best in us by forcing us to confront our inner demons.

I've heard stories of Holocaust survivors who say they are actually grateful for the lessons they learned in the concentration camps when they saw the very worst of humanity and.faced the potential evil in their own souls. But they didn't call the SS guards "soul mates."

At some point, abusive and.disrespectful spouses must face the consequences. The fact that their abuse taught us valuable lessons abbot ourselves does not excuse abusive behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Do you know that the Hebrew words for spouse and adversary are the same exact word?
> 
> Somethings never really change


Not in modern Hebrew...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> Conrad, I respect y you a lot, but I gotta challenge you on your definition of "soul mate." You say she helped you face your demons. No doubt this is true. But only because she treated you badly. Sometimes, bad experiences being out the best in us by forcing us to confront our inner demons.
> 
> I've heard stories of Holocaust survivors who say they are actually grateful for the lessons they learned in the concentration camps when they saw the very worst of humanity and.faced the potential evil in their own souls. But they didn't call the SS guards "soul mates."
> 
> ...


Hurt,

I appreciate what you're saying.

But, it's not what she does that matters.

It's how I've identified her and the role she's played in my life that carries the day.

Abusers abuse, that's true.

But, I'm in full recovery mode as a codependent. Each hurt is a trailhead to the source of the pain. You get to put sunshine on it and examine it in broad daylight. You get to resolve it and then you're made whole.

This may not make sense to some, but I - alone - figured it out this last time. I was never able to do it before. Yes, there were some jagged edges to it, but I sniffed out the abuse without any help. No, I didn't use "I'm not ok with that" dispassionately. I was so offended by her demand that I literally lost my cool.

Yet, there is no precedent for me standing up to her - on my own - and figuring it out. Other times, there have been catalysts (children, etc.) of many shapes and sizes. This time, it was just me and her. And, I did it.

There is no easy button and there are no quick fixes.

When I emerge from this, I will be completely healed and totally recovered. And, I can see it.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

And by the way, as I have mentioned before, the concept of the spouse as the one who will show you who you are and what you need to learn is outline thoroughly in the work of Harville Hendrix. An entire school of thought exists around it. I am not aware that we each get just one person in our lifetime who can for this purpose...a soul mate, as you say. Perhaps this is more of a personal philosophy for you, and i will respect that, I just don't think that it is the truth of the universe. 

When you call Janie a soul mate, when you say how attracted you are to her and how much passion and physical chemistry you share, I can see how hard it would be for you to give her up. To stop having sex. To cut her out of your life. 

But is there a chance that deep down, you are simply afraid that you married someone who is emotionally broken (at least for the time being) and that you may not find the same attraction, love and Passion with someone new?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> But is there a chance that deep down, you are simply afraid that you married someone who is emotionally broken (at least for the time being) and that you may not find the same attraction, love and Passion with someone new?


That IS the case and believe me he simply CANNOT find the same attraction, love and passion with someone new because that new person will never challenge him as much as Janie did. I have felt this with all my being.

Janie is not just Conrad's wife. She's an organ that defines Conrad the way he *wants* to be defined. You can't replace Janie in Conrad's existence. With Janie gone, Conrad is not Conrad anymore. As hard as it is to admit this, it's very true.

In Janie's complete absence, Conrad will have to be redefined. For someone who likes what they have turned out to be, it's very hard to accept being redefined.

I face the same challenge in life.

It's not hard to find a new partner. Heck it's not even hard to build a truly loving relationship with them either.

It is however next to impossible to give up your desired identity without getting broken into pieces.

Conrad is and has been in survival mode for a very long time now. I feel his pain and have no answer...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

bandit.45 said:


> It took her all these years to realize that? how many more years is it going to take for her to realize she's a remorseless cheater? Are you going to waste your life waiting?


Conrad and his wife are trying to work it out.

You aren't telling him anything he doesn't already know.

I'm asking ... respectfully, please don't crap all over that effort, and their decision.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Lulu,
> 
> We were sitting outside on a pleasant night (on Tuesday, I think)
> 
> ...


THIS IS WHAT IS SO FRUSTRATING ABOUT DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF PEOPLE.

SM (Son's mother) and I would had issues, then talk about them, reconcile and be ok. When I thought things were fine she would come up with a bull**** excuse of why we were not meant to be together and needed to divorce/separate. I would hear what she was saying breathless, confused, dying inside, not understanding what the hell was going on. Now I know all my attempts at being better for her and improving our marriage were only increasing her fear that one day I was going to abandon her. 

"Why do you love me?" She asked this question repeatedly. No answer was sufficient. 

"I'm afraid you are going to leave", she would say even after having a great week together.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> THIS IS WHAT IS SO FRUSTRATING ABOUT DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF PEOPLE.
> 
> SM (Son's mother) and I would had issues, then talk about them, reconcile and be ok. When I thought things were fine she would come up with a bull**** excuse of why we were not meant to be together and needed to divorce/separate. I would hear what she was saying breathless, confused, dying inside, not understanding what the hell was going on. Now I know all my attempts at being better for her and improving our marriage were only increasing her fear that one day I was going to abandon her.
> 
> ...


And she will continue this pattern of behavior with every relationship she has. You are lucky to be out of her stormpath.
Get that divorce filed.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

synthetic said:


> This thread ruined me.
> 
> I have little to say.
> 
> f*** this life.


I agree. Even with all the reasons Conrad is giving why he is hanging onto this broken human being....I still don't get it. 

But its his life. He has to walk his own path.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> THIS IS WHAT IS SO FRUSTRATING ABOUT DEALING WITH THESE KIND OF PEOPLE.
> 
> SM (Son's mother) and I would had issues, then talk about them, reconcile and be ok. When I thought things were fine she would come up with a bull**** excuse of why we were not meant to be together and needed to divorce/separate. I would hear what she was saying breathless, confused, dying inside, not understanding what the hell was going on. Now I know all my attempts at being better for her and improving our marriage were only increasing her fear that one day I was going to abandon her.
> 
> ...


The better it goes, the worse they feel.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She's had one-on-one lunches with her ex's since the day we got married. And, vigorously defended the practice.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder if the only way for her to feel what I feel is to experience it herself.


Don't know about this one. First time me and SM separated it was after I found out she added her ex on Facebook. Had I discovered that she had lunch with him ......


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

synthetic said:


> That IS the case and believe me he simply CANNOT find the same attraction, love and passion with someone new because that new person will never challenge him as much as Janie did. I have felt this with all my being.
> 
> Janie is not just Conrad's wife. She's an organ that defines Conrad the way he *wants* to be defined. You can't replace Janie in Conrad's existence. With Janie gone, Conrad is not Conrad anymore. As hard as it is to admit this, it's very true.
> 
> ...


I see your point Synth but correct me if I'm wrong Conrad ... it's for this same reason (the opportunity of coming out of this being a redefined better person) that you are going through this. You see it although many of us including myself when I started reading the thread don't see it. 

I know you have control in this. I see what's going on, I think. LOL.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lifescript said:


> I see your point Synth but correct me if I'm wrong Conrad ... it's for this same reason (the opportunity of coming out of this being a redefined better person) that you are going through this. You see it although many of us including myself when I started reading the thread don't see it.
> 
> I know you have control in this. I see what's going on, I think. LOL.


Script,

I think you do.

A piece of paper doesn't heal people. Passwords don't heal people. Wearing rings doesn't heal people.

Healing requires a "lifting" of spirit. In the same way physical health returns as an infection "lifts" and your appetite returns, mental healing requires a "lifting" of spirit.

Janie returned to me when she found I was dating others. She pledged I would never doubt her love for me again. The truth is, I believe she currently loves me as best she can.

But, as pidge and I discussed very early in this thread, this emotional place scares her. Inside, she aches for control. So, she starts digging in this forum for something she finds "offensive". She then demands I quit the forum. Inside, she wishes to isolate me and bring me down, so I'll stay with her.

We compromise on a joint account. My PM's with other posters go from a good pace (as an individual) to ONE. People want to ask me things. They clearly didn't want to ask "us" things. It was a method of control, but I wanted to make good faith compromises to demonstrate I'm willing to work through issues.

Then I find out she gave an ex a massage. "That's ok right"?

You know, it's totally not ok. So, I tell her I'm not pleased and to not make a habit out of this. Then she wants to change the password on this account - and remarked that I had cleared almost all private messages. Do you really think I'm going to allow her to do a review of all messaging since our separation and question me on everything I've ever said?

You can hear the insecurity screaming off the page. She doesn't want restrictions on her contacts with men. She doesn't want me to mention her in any way, as she experiences fear. So, she agrees to a joint account, thinking this will give her the control and security she seeks.

Of course, you already know the answer. Only one person can give Janie the security she seeks. And, it's Janie.

That internal gnaw that she feels about the "other shoe going to drop" is the core wound of abandonment. The idea that she's unworthy of love and that bad things are going to happen.

Her response is then to push me away - hurt me before I hurt her. I have no intention of hurting her. That doesn't mean I'll never experience fear or make a mistake... or even tell a lie or coverup something that previously would have been the equivalent of putting a loaded revolver to my head and pulling the trigger.

We could easily navigate these things with forgiveness and abundant trust. But, I fear she may have to resolve her issues before that sort of thing is possible. And, that takes time - and work.

Here's the key thing for me.

I sniffed it out this time.

How many times in the past have I swallowed hard and "done a #3" to keep the peace..... or to get a piece?

Not this time.

If she gets a veto over who my friends are, I must have a veto over who her friends are.

If I have no say over her friends, she has no say over mine.

We need to trust each other.

We currently don't.

So, there's work to do.

So, we either do the work together, or we eventually lose this incredible attraction and go our separate ways.

I'm ok either way... for the first time.

My spirit is lifting. For real.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
You repeatedly confuse "limited restraint" for change. Janie has never changed. She simply exercises great restraint for short periods of time, during which she treats you with a daily regimen of sexual morphine(SM) delivered via a transdermal pouch (not patch) directly to your penis.

The way this works each time is identical:
- j initiates a lite regime of SM
- After a short time she initiates talk of recon, knowing he is mildly impaired
- He states conditions for the recon. She has a few as well (he's great but not perfect)
- She agrees but the unspoken addendum to every one of her commitments is "until I overpower you via SM, at which point I will resume doing exactly what I want, and you will resume doing - exactly what I want
- Conrad then agrees they should recon
- Janie ratchets up the treatment to a hospice level of intensity 
- At this point she begins to push boundaries 
- Conrad let's the little stuff go as he is well aware that his marital terrain consists of a 2 foot ledge overlooking a sheer drop of 1000 feet - he is never more than one short step from the precipice. Besides it's fun on the ledge - most folks need to be medically designated as within 6 months of end of life, for hospice admission - he gets the same opiate levels and is healthy
- Janie of course isn't interested in little stuff, what he perceives and experiences as an opiate, she administers as an emotional paralytic - think arachnida
- And until 2 years ago it had always worked. With every partner. But 2 years ago Conrad roused himself from an opium dream that had morphed into a nightmare in which a giant spider was about to....
- So within a few months of administering full treatment, she goes into unfiltered Janie mode
- And it works partially for a while. Case in point, it was outrageous that she was able to do whatever she wanted during their 6 month separation and yet demanded to see his phone and interrogate him about his "friends". And he complied. Luckily he has developed a partial resistance to the paralytic aspects of the treatment.





UOTE=Conrad;907724]Script,

I think you do.

A piece of paper doesn't heal people. Passwords don't heal people. Wearing rings doesn't heal people.

Healing requires a "lifting" of spirit. In the same way physical health returns as an infection "lifts" and your appetite returns, mental healing requires a "lifting" of spirit.

Janie returned to me when she found I was dating others. She pledged I would never doubt her love for me again. The truth is, I believe she currently loves me as best she can.

But, as pidge and I discussed very early in this thread, this emotional place scares her. Inside, she aches for control. So, she starts digging in this forum for something she finds "offensive". She then demands I quit the forum. Inside, she wishes to isolate me and bring me down, so I'll stay with her.

We compromise on a joint account. My PM's with other posters go from a good pace (as an individual) to ONE. People want to ask me things. They clearly didn't want to ask "us" things. It was a method of control, but I wanted to make good faith compromises to demonstrate I'm willing to work through issues.

Then I find out she gave an ex a massage. "That's ok right"?

You know, it's totally not ok. So, I tell her I'm not pleased and to not make a habit out of this. Then she wants to change the password on this account - and remarked that I had cleared almost all private messages. Do you really think I'm going to allow her to do a review of all messaging since our separation and question me on everything I've ever said?

You can hear the insecurity screaming off the page. She doesn't want restrictions on her contacts with men. She doesn't want me to mention her in any way, as she experiences fear. So, she agrees to a joint account, thinking this will give her the control and security she seeks.

Of course, you already know the answer. Only one person can give Janie the security she seeks. And, it's Janie.

That internal gnaw that she feels about the "other shoe going to drop" is the core wound of abandonment. The idea that she's unworthy of love and that bad things are going to happen.

Her response is then to push me away - hurt me before I hurt her. I have no intention of hurting her. That doesn't mean I'll never experience fear or make a mistake... or even tell a lie or coverup something that previously would have been the equivalent of putting a loaded revolver to my head and pulling the trigger.

We could easily navigate these things with forgiveness and abundant trust. But, I fear she may have to resolve her issues before that sort of thing is possible. And, that takes time - and work.

Here's the key thing for me.

I sniffed it out this time.

How many times in the past have I swallowed hard and "done a #3" to keep the peace..... or to get a piece?

Not this time.

If she gets a veto over who my friends are, I must have a veto over who her friends are.

If I have no say over her friends, she has no say over mine.

We need to trust each other.

We currently don't.

So, there's work to do.

So, we either do the work together, or we eventually lose this incredible attraction and go our separate ways.

I'm ok either way... for the first time.

My spirit is lifting. For real.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mark,

Have you ever really needed to heal from codependence?



MEM11363 said:


> Conrad,
> You repeatedly confuse "limited restraint" for change. Janie has never changed. She simply exercises great restraint for short periods of time, during which she treats you with a daily regimen of sexual morphine(SM) delivered via a transdermal pouch (not patch) directly to your penis.
> 
> The way this works each time is identical:
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Synth,
This is pure and utter lunacy. 

Someone who constructively challenges you, and brings out your best: that is beautiful 

That is entirely different from Someone who aggressively seeks to dominate and control you, and responds to boundary enforcement with a rapid and irrational escalation to threats of divorce. That is toxic and emotionally abusive. It produces conflict avoidant behavior or intense anxiety or both. You acted like a doormat for most of your marriage and somehow perceive that as good for you?





synthetic said:


> That IS the case and believe me he simply CANNOT find the same attraction, love and passion with someone new because that new person will never challenge him as much as Janie did. I have felt this with all my being.
> 
> Janie is not just Conrad's wife. She's an organ that defines Conrad the way he *wants* to be defined. You can't replace Janie in Conrad's existence. With Janie gone, Conrad is not Conrad anymore. As hard as it is to admit this, it's very true.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Will you answer my question?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Synth,
> This is pure and utter lunacy.
> 
> Someone who constructively challenges you, and brings out your best: that is beautiful
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Will you answer my question?


The best way to heal codependency is to extricate oneself from what you are codependent on. 

Say goodbye to her.


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## jpr (Dec 14, 2011)

You have to stop being codependent in order to heal from it.
....it doesn't seem like you have ever stopped being codependent.

This label you have given yourself of "codependency" seems to be your crutch....your excuse for not cutting her out of your life entirely.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
What's up? Why would you think I am ignoring your question? Look at the timestamps. I responded to Synth's - I am going to use a large amount of my finite pool of restraint and just refer to it as a "post". 

And then I am now in a cellular dead spot. Good thing we have wifi eh? 

Yes - I was co-dependent a long time ago. There is only one cure. Total NC. That's it. Anything else is perpetuating the problem. 

And FWIW - as one of the people who Janie cut out of your life - I wasn't happy about that. As for where your head is at right now - I wish you the best. 




Conrad said:


> Will you answer my question?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She didn't cut you out.

You did.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

synthetic said:


> That IS the case and believe me he simply CANNOT find the same attraction, love and passion with someone new because that new person will never challenge him as much as Janie did. I have felt this with all my being.
> 
> Janie is not just Conrad's wife. She's an organ that defines Conrad the way he *wants* to be defined. You can't replace Janie in Conrad's existence. With Janie gone, Conrad is not Conrad anymore. As hard as it is to admit this, it's very true.
> 
> ...


The way you describe Conrad and yourself is a true example of co-dependence. I am co-dependent and I want to change and heal from it. I don't want my stbx to be the determining factor in my identity. I believe the goal is to depend on myself and then and only then will I be able to be happy. What I was doing wasn't healthy for me nor my h, nor my son for that matter. There is someone else out there for all of us if we can seperate ourselves from the this dysfunction and heal. Will we break to pieces no. We may fall apart for a while but we will get back up and work on ourselves and begin to move forward. This is self imposed limbo and you can not heal while in it. I for one will not do this to myself any longer. I deserve better no matter what happens to h. Fixing him is not my job. My job is me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

How did I "cut myself out"? 





Conrad said:


> She didn't cut you out.
> 
> You did.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> How did I "cut myself out"?


You got exceedingly angry and impatient with me when I didn't take all your wisdom to heart.

Has that always been your pattern?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

cantmove said:


> The way you describe Conrad and yourself is a true example of co-dependence. I am co-dependent and I want to change and heal from it. I don't want my stbx to be the determining factor in my identity. I believe the goal is to depend on myself and then and only then will I be able to be happy. What I was doing wasn't healthy for me nor my h, nor my son for that matter. There is someone else out there for all of us if we can seperate ourselves from the this dysfunction and heal. Will we break to pieces no. We may fall apart for a while but we will get back up and work on ourselves and begin to move forward. This is self imposed limbo and you can not heal while in it. I for one will not do this to myself any longer. I deserve better no matter what happens to h. Fixing him is not my job. My job is me.


Very well said.

I was thinking of how to answer Synthetic, as I understand what he's saying but do not agree with his basis.

Thanks so much.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Interesting. I kept copies in sent - of my last two emails to you. I just looked at them. 

I wasn't angry when I wrote either. I was merely sharing an opinion as to the path most likely to result in a successful recon in the first - the one below. And in the second, a concern that you were not asserting boundaries in a key area where you have had huge problems with Janie in the past. And it ended with "I am worried about you my friend". And I WAS worried about you. 

That said, if you experience this type communication, as anger and impatience - I will desist. 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the critical window, ER surgeons call it the "golden hour". This is where you encourage positive emotion, and with tremendous restraint limit "tangible" positive feedback to her actual behavior. You have maybe a month during which to etch a new pattern based on "what is done", not "what is felt". 

In order to traverse such a windy, slippery road, you will have to compartmentalize. And the brutal, unfair truth of it is: the more you let yourself "feel" this intense love during this short window, the less able you will be to help her. Already you are at the edge of the shoulder, on a hairpin turn called "blind fidelity", why is it that a partner who has so blatantly sought the attention of others, has the right to even open a conversation with you about your behavior? Somehow, this hairpin turn is about you, when in truth your partner has driven off the road there repeatedly, openly and defiantly. 

I wish you luck - you know that. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>






Conrad said:


> You got exceedingly angry and impatient with me when I didn't take all your wisdom to heart.
> 
> Has that always been your pattern?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Conrad,
> You repeatedly confuse "limited restraint" for change. Janie has never changed. She simply exercises great restraint for short periods of time, during which she treats you with a daily regimen of sexual morphine(SM) delivered via a transdermal pouch (not patch) directly to your penis.
> 
> The way this works each time is identical:
> ...


Do you think I would write something like this publicly about you - even if I truly thought it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No. You have more sense than that. I apologize.

It is also true that you are changing the subject from: you claiming I cut myself out of your life, to what you dislike about a post this morning. Are you really going to try and put the cut out on me? Not even close to fair. 




Conrad said:


> Do you think I would write something like this publicly about you - even if I truly thought it?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> No. You have more sense than that. I apologize.
> 
> It is also true that you are changing the subject from: you claiming I cut myself out of your life, to what you dislike about a post this morning. Are you really going to try and put the cut out on me? Not even close to fair.
> 
> ...


I never considered you cut out.

I did get a new phone and the old one was ruined. So, your number was gone and I lost control of this account.

So, I haven't called.

I consider you a friend - and always will.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Same here. I have confidence you will get to a good place.

UOTE=Conrad;908009]I never considered you cut out.

I did get a new phone and the old one was ruined. So, your number was gone and I lost control of this account.

So, I haven't called.

I consider you a friend - and always will.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Same here. I have confidence you will get to a good place.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


It's lifting.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

What in the world is going on! Peace prevails. Good! 

Conrad, 

I know no one like you. With your knowledge about these subjects. I trust that you know what you are doing and it's ultimately your patch and decisions to make BUT I do see your attachment to her. November is on vacation the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Damn phone I meant november its on the way. Dont know how vacation ended up in the middle of that sentence. LOL.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Most of this stuff is way over my head, but Conrad, do you think if your wife is capable of the change you need of her ? She got away with her behavior for quite a long time and she was quite successful with it. And that is way she learnt to live. Is change possible ?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> Most of this stuff is way over my head, but Conrad, do you think if your wife is capable of the change you need of her ? She got away with her behavior for quite a long time and she was quite successful with it. And that is way she learnt to live. Is change possible ?


I'm not sure.


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