# Modern fiction and female empowerment



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

WARNING: Spoilers of popular movies and games potentially possible in this thread

After watching the latest Disney movie (Mulan 2020) I've been needing to get this out of my chest and see the thoughts of others outside my circle. Some folks have already gotten to social media to voice their views however I'm more interested in your views. Since we are discussing modern fiction which includes movies and games in general, I would like to encourage the use of the SPOILER tag when appropriate, please use "spoiler" "/spoiler", replacing the ""s with [], or use the ... option tab below the writing window. Example:


Spoiler



Boo



Now what I would like to discuss is what are your views in female empowerment in fiction? What is your view of the term "Mary Sue"? What effects do you think this has on our children especially our daughters?

My views (SPOILER ALERT):


Spoiler



I hate the character development especially of recent films especially Disney and Marvel. I don't even get what happened, Frozen was recent and fine, Elsa was a flawed character who learnt to overcome her failings. Then we have Rey from Star Wars, Mulan, Captain Marvel. It seems to be an annoying trend.

Mulan especially has pissed me off, from the original Mulan my daughter learnt that she doesn't have to be male to succeed, big/tough to succeed, that you can achieve anything you want even a country to bow before you including an Emperor. In the follow up thank goodness she has watched the original first so all she got from the new one was that they made a live-action parody.

In the new Mulan if you aren't gifted in being a kickass all hope for you is lost so you will end up like her (new addition) sister who has to be married away to bring the family honor (like, what a fail in female empowerment), you aren't encouraged to think outside the box and must compete with others on a lateral manner (the water scene, in the original Mulan failed and was almost kicked out, then she learnt instead of using the weights representing "Strength" and "Discipline" on each arm, she wraps both together and uses it as a counter balance to reach the top... in the new scene, she just walks past everyone)

I mean, am I sexist for these views?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Mary Sue is just a name, is it supposed to be a harmful name ??


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

I don't really have anything to say about female empowerment. All the women in my real life have always been empowered to do what they want.

Mary Sues are not entertaining and watching a movie with one is not interesting. Most good movies have character development. Which typically does not happen with a Mary Sue character and this is why people don't like that character. 
The cartoon Mulan was an interesting character and people could relate to her. I don't know about any of the newer movies you mention, because they don't interest me.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Mary Sue is just a name, is it supposed to be a harmful name ??


Here is the Wikipedia post about Mary Sue:





Mary Sue - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

leftfield said:


> I don't really have anything to say about female empowerment. All the women in my real life have always been empowered to do what they want.
> 
> Mary Sues are not entertaining and watching a movie with one is not interesting. Most good movies have character development. Which typically does not happen with a Mary Sue character and this is why people don't like that character.
> The cartoon Mulan was an interesting character and people could relate to her. I don't know about any of the newer movies you mention, because they don't interest me.


Agreed, yet sadly it seems Hollywood has an agenda to push these days and their idea of female empowerment seems to be pushing female characters with no character development. Because I guess it's sexist to portray a woman to face flaws and adversity and struggle to overcome them even if she overcomes them in the end.

I'm dragged to watch all these crappy films these days having to sit through the garbage I sadly have no choice regardless of my interest  So I guess it does give me a first world itch lol


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## maree (Jun 13, 2011)

I dont think Disney really gives a rip about real female empowerment. I think they do it because it's popular at the moment. They want a big hit and big $$$$. They really show a lacking of understanding when it comes to real life challenges. All these movies are predictable garbage in my opinion. I haven't seen Mulan yet (the new one) but I already have a feeling I know what it is all about and how it will be portrayed.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I decided not to watch the new Mulan for a number of reasons but the "Mary Sue" factor was one of them.

The cartoon was awesome partly because of her struggles and embarrassing failures as she grew as a character.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

maree said:


> I dont think Disney really gives a rip about real female empowerment. I think they do it because it's popular at the moment. They want a big hit and big $$$$. They really show a lacking of understanding when it comes to real life challenges. All these movies are predictable garbage in my opinion. I haven't seen Mulan yet (the new one) but I already have a feeling I know what it is all about and how it will be portrayed.


But how is it even popular? Have people lost taste or have they lost touch with their audience? Everything is like, critically panned at the moment and for good reason. Modern cinematography is so advanced in the 21st century yet we have so many soul-less scripts, plots, characters and dialogue, and shoehorning of political agendas to boot (and failing to even uplift them). They can't even get a family movie right! Even if the plot is crap at least make it fun! lol



ConanHub said:


> I decided not to watch the new Mulan for a number of reasons but the "Mary Sue" factor was one of them.
> The cartoon was awesome partly because of her struggles and embarrassing failures as she grew as a character.


Yes and from these struggles she succeeds in so many ways it's so powerful and heartwarming.

I never expect sequels to trump the originals but good heavens sometimes...


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Seems like a bunch of movies are taking one of two approaches: make every lead female (Ghost Busters, most recent Terminator, that Oceans whatever) or if there's only 1, make that female lead a Mary Sue (Star Wars, Mulan). 

I personally, HATE IT. And before some media person calls me a woman-hating man-baby living in my mom's basement, I hate the laziness of the writing! You can write strong female characters, but Hollywood either doesn't have the talent or doesn't care. And that annoys me! I can probably go to a fanfiction website and find a better developed female character. 

Like examples I can think of:
Carol from The Walking Dead. LOVED HER! She grew from the timid, meek wife of an abusive husband into a hardened fighter that does the tough, hard, scary jobs. Like when she assaulted that compound at the beginning of season 4/5? AMAZING! 
Olenna Tyrell from GoT (my spelling sucks. Queen of Roses). She was the sweet old lady, and the nice "Queen of Roses." Come to find out she is very protective of her grandkids, and RUTHLESS! And her final scene, cut to the bone! She is the grandma I think everyone wants. 
Even the original Mulan, animated. She didn't know how to fight, or have the skills that are drilled into men by the greatest workout song Disney ever made (like catching fish with your hands, or....shooting cannons). And she wasn't some crazy super soldier, she was just a regular soldier that used her smarts. 

But whatever. It's the state of Hollywood today.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I just don't get it, even in recent times Elsa in the first Frozen was a flawed and imperfect character, and they made millions out of that movie and it was critically acclaimed. 

Why are they following after failures instead like Terminator and Ghost Buster??!?!


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am not a fan of Mary Sue's (or whatever the male version might be). Rey is a good example of one, while I disagree about Captain Marvel. Mostly, because most super heroes have a Mary Sue-ness to them. Prior to her getting powers, she was hard working, struggled to get where she was and put up with crap her whole life for it. Now, you can argue the feminist overtones of it, but I don't think she is a Mary Sue.

I have not seen the new Mulan, but in general, I would say that Mary Sue's are not empowering.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I just don't get it, even in recent times Elsa in the first Frozen was a flawed and imperfect character, and they made millions out of that movie and it was critically acclaimed.
> 
> Why are they following after failures instead like Terminator and Ghost Buster??!?!


Because the blue check marks on Twitter and reviewers on Rotten Tomatoes will sing it's praises when it's a steaming pile of crap. 

Easiest example to me, Star Wars the Last Jedi. 
Whether or not people liked the movie is a personal choice. Not going to touch that. Nor will I touch the stuff that made nerds like me rage. 
But a central piece to the plot, the whole chase in space seen, and conflict between Poe and Admiral Holdo, was literally the Idiot's Plot! Better writers would've used Leia, or Mon Mothma, or Admiral Ackbar, not Holdo. Great writers never would've used the Idiot's Plot. 
Sub-plot to the casino? Hit the diversity quota! Asian female, black male, battling against the war-profiteering elites. And setting a bunch of child slaves and captive animals free. How empowering! _cough*just ignore the fact the kids have no skills, no way to make money, no parents, and the animals have no way to feed themselves on this planet so...guess we have the darkest imagining of the Lord of the Flies on our hands *cough_
And we gotta have a lightsaber battle! So instead of Kylo (who trained for years only to get beaten by a scavenger girl with no training in terms of fighting or the force) Rey has to battle the...Preatorian Guard I think? And she manages to beat back 3 of them with 1 kick! (there is a great youtube video about it, go check it out) 

Did audiences like it? According to Rotten Tomaotes, not really. 
But Critics loved it! Gave it like, 90% something, right? 
And made like $1B. 

Everyone thinks their new social justice project is going to be like that. 
And not be like the Ghost Busters one, that bombed at the box office, or the Terminator one, that bombed and killed a franchise!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Tasorundo said:


> I am not a fan of Mary Sue's (or whatever the male version might be). Rey is a good example of one, while I disagree about Captain Marvel. Mostly, because most super heroes have a Mary Sue-ness to them. Prior to her getting powers, she was hard working, struggled to get where she was and put up with crap her whole life for it. Now, you can argue the feminist overtones of it, but I don't think she is a Mary Sue.
> 
> I have not seen the new Mulan, but in general, I would say that Mary Sue's are not empowering.


Yeah she's borderline for me, think its because she became absolutely invincible in the end which kinda kills character development. Superman by comparison is OP but has clear weaknesses.



Broken at 20 said:


> Because the blue check marks on Twitter and reviewers on Rotten Tomatoes will sing it's praises when it's a steaming pile of crap.
> 
> Easiest example to me, Star Wars the Last Jedi.
> Whether or not people liked the movie is a personal choice. Not going to touch that. Nor will I touch the stuff that made nerds like me rage.
> ...


Lol I wanted to walk out of the Force Awakens and I never watched the others as I could tell I wasn't going to like the new direction. Star Wars is very lore heavy and I can't deviate from established lore and realities and call it canon. Mary Sue aside. Its too beloved a franchise for me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Sad thing is Rey could have been a great character and Daisy Riley would have done a fine job if she had gotten a good script.

This is like everything in the **** show we live in right now.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I have to say I have no idea what you guys talking about. Noticing lack of women on that thread thought, lol


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I have to say I have no idea what you guys talking about. Noticing lack of women on that thread thought, lol


LoL! Ok. There are a lot of reworked movies as well as new productions coming out that have "Mary Sues" as characters.

A Mary Sue is a female character that is over powered, super capable and has little difficulty overcoming any obstacles.

The new Mulan is overpowered from the start where as the cartoon version needed loads of help and still struggled with very difficult obstacles and failed so much she was even ordered to go home at which point she used her intelligence, combined with some physical conditioning she worked for, to overcome an obstacle and prove herself worth keeping as a soldier.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! Ok. There are a lot of reworked movies as well as new productions coming out that have "Mary Sues" as characters.
> 
> A Mary Sue is a female character that is over powered, super capable and has little difficulty overcoming any obstacles.
> 
> The new Mulan is overpowered from the start where as the cartoon version needed loads of help and still struggled with very difficult obstacles and failed so much she was even ordered to go home at which point she used her intelligence, combined with some physical conditioning she worked for, to overcome an obstacle and prove herself worth keeping as a soldier.


I guess now I will have to watch new Mulan to just to have my own opinion. But me and my girls loved female Ghostbusters, it was light and fun. I do not understand why people (mhhmm, men) are bothered by these kind of remakes? It is fun for us to watch once in a while.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I guess now I will have to watch new Mulan to just to have my own opinion. But me and my girls loved female Ghostbusters, it was light and fun. I do not understand why people (mhhmm, men) are bothered by these kind of remakes? It is fun for us to watch once in a while.


You are probably less concerned with agendas which isn't a bad thing.

I became aware of them in a very interesting way when Marvel released Captain Marvel.

It would be a mistake to think it is only men who are bothered by this nonsense.

It is a trap that some fall into with painting an entire sex with a broad brush.

I am not bothered by female leads or strong female characters. I can probably name several movies and works of literature with both and go into great detail about them to levels that would not be appreciated.

What the agenda driven are doing is just replacing male characters with female which can be fun in alternate universe kinds of ways but is a very bad idea just to do.

GB 2016 was a flop for many reasons but primarily because they didn't do as good a job as the original.

I absolutely laughed my ass off at Chris Hemsworth's character though and Kristen Wiig had me rolling with some of her antics!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

They are simply movies to enjoy, that target different demographics. Nothing scary about it. Most of the movies have guys as main characters, there is enough gigabytes in the universe for few female centered pieces.,
There is more than enough movies where make characters are simple and not complicated, and we ate not discusding them as a threat to our way of living.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hollywood in general and disney are sadly now very poor examples of moral values and inegrity. Thats why we hardly ever watch a film any more. The way the term 'female empowerment' is used now drives me nuts. I hate the term. Its even used by women who seem to think its 'empowering' to pose naked. I see it as the opposite. 
In some programmes and films they have gone too far. I watched a good police drama on tv recently, but it was so unrealistic because practically everyone in a high position was female and that just isnt the way it is.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> They are simply movies to enjoy, that target different demographics. Nothing scary about it. Most of the movies have guys as main characters, there is enough gigabytes in the universe for few female centered pieces.,
> There is more than enough movies where make characters are simple and not complicated, and we ate not discusding them as a threat to our way of living.


First world issues sure, but doesn't stop us complaining lol

There are youtube videos with more character development then the latest movies!!!



Diana7 said:


> Hollywood in general and disney are sadly now very poor examples of moral values and inegrity. Thats why we hardly ever watch a film any more. The way the term 'female empowerment' is used now drives me nuts. I hate the term. Its even used by women who seem to think its 'empowering' to pose naked. I see it as the opposite.
> In some programmes and films they have gone too far. I watched a good police drama on tv recently, but it was so unrealistic because practically everyone in a high position was female and that just isnt the way it is.


Yeah not only does it not represent reality but the characters and their experiences are not relatable.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> What the agenda driven are doing is just replacing male characters with female which can be fun in alternate universe kinds of ways but is a very bad idea just to do.


I'm noticing a similar trend when it comes to race as well. Rather not get into that, but arghhh...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> I'm noticing a similar trend when it comes to race as well. Rather not get into that, but arghhh...


Hahahaha! Mulan should be portrayed by Liam Neeson.😆


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Action movies have always been this way - very unrealistic hero characters that you would never see in real life. Always cracks me up when the hero crashes through a door or a glass window and then jumps up with nary a scratch to run after the bad guy. It used to be just white guys, like Tom Cruise. Now we see some women and blacks in the same roles. Personally, I find action movies one dimensional, occasionally entertaining, but can never imagine watching them more than once. Junk food for the masses.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Hahahaha! Mulan should be portrayed by Liam Neeson.😆


Lol yeah and Jet Li as George Washington! 😅



blahfridge said:


> Action movies have always been this way - very unrealistic hero characters that you would never see in real life. Always cracks me up when the hero crashes through a door or a glass window and then jumps up with nary a scratch to run after the bad guy. It used to be just white guys, like Tom Cruise. Now we see some women and blacks in the same roles. Personally, I find action movies one dimensional, occasionally entertaining, but can never imagine watching them more than once. Junk food for the masses.


But... women and blacks have always been in such roles, in VASTLY better movies and characters. Sigourney Weaver, Angelina Jolie, Linda Hamilton, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Wesley Snipes, etc etc. Sarah Connor (in Terminator 2) or Ellen Ripley hands down the most badass women ever and no where near being Mary Sues yet you just don't fk with them! lol

Sometimes I fear if people have forgotten


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Lol yeah and Jet Li as George Washington! 😅
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're right Dude, I have forgotten about those characters. Disinterested then, even more disinterested now, lol. 
But I do see your point. Blockbuster action films make money and the formula works right now. Perhaps the pendulum will swing back again.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

They are only potentially making money now because they are milking existing franchises in reboots lol

So they can get away with all this... bah!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> First world issues sure, but doesn't stop us complaining lol
> 
> There are youtube videos with more character development then the latest movies!!!
> 
> ...


you know, in the history of cinema there are thousand mediocre movies with male characters. We do not remember them for obvious reasons, they were mediocre.
It is the same for movies with leading female characters -there will be great one and mediocre. The more female oriented movies are made, the more mediocre ones will be created. Simply rule of big numbers.
It seems again, like expectations for women are simply higher


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

WandaJ said:


> you know, in the history of cinema there are thousand mediocre movies with male characters. We do not remember them for obvious reasons, they were mediocre.
> It is the same for movies with leading female characters -there will be great one and mediocre. The more female oriented movies are made, the more mediocre ones will be created. Simply rule of big numbers.
> It seems again, like expectations for women are simply higher


Lol well I guess I would expect filmmakers to you know, learn simple character development and design without having to repeat the mistakes of old mediocre films just because they had male leads. 😅


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Lol well I guess I would expect filmmakers to you know, learn simple character development and design without having to repeat the mistakes of old mediocre films just because they had male leads. 😅


dream on


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

There are equally important and good roles for both sexes, let's start from there. That's my position. 

What I observe in movies and tv, is that mostly women are in form fitting clothing, or partially see through whether so tight or sheer and hot women are used all over.

What's always humorous is when guys in a military or medieval move are always in full armor say, and the women are in spandex or low cut and legless outfits heading to the same battle.

And if course every horror movie has the big breasted girls getting the screen time.

Sex sells. Hollywood hypocrisy.


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