# No patience left for each other.



## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Me and my husband have arrived at a horrible situation, where we cannot communicate properly at all. Everything is a fight. 

From his point of view: I became overly negative and "talking back" at him, which made him upset. He didn't feel like I listened to this concern of his, which made him more upset. Our differences, which have caused us problems in the past, are now flaring up in his eyes. I am by nature an easily distracted person, and have also had a LOT of problems with talking about my feelings openly. I still have work to do there, but have improved since the beginning of our relationship very much. But now, seeing everything in a negative light, my husband also sees signs of me 1) not paying attention to things and/or 2) not telling him things clearly, openly and honestly enough in EVERYTHING. Seriously. In the past couple of days he has gotten angry about many things so minute I cannot even remember them, several times a day.

From my point of view then: As I had had trouble talking about my feeling and emotions, I started to go to IC and also read and learn about it myself much more. I became a bit more confident. I realized I had been feeling understated in our relationship. (I have talked about this to my husband a lot. He knew I had felt this and he also knew that I didn't think it was his fault, I knew and told him it was on me that I hadn't stepped up and said my opinion or asked for what I wanted.) So I started to say my opinions more. 

My husband and I have a different mother tongue, but in our relationship we speak English, which is his native language. I am fluent, but by no means a native speaker. Additionally, in my first language the style of communication is much more direct than in English, sometimes to the point of being rude (in an English speaker's eyes). This combined with the fact that in my husband's childhood home someone stating a difference of opinion almost always resulted in a yelling match — and he started to feel like every time I voiced an opinion, I was trying to fight his and tell him he was wrong. We both realized this and talked it through. I have made attempts to deliver my opinions more constructively, but it takes a while to learn.

Meanwhile, from my perspective, my husband has gone berserk. I cannot do anything without him complaining to me about it, be it a negative remark or outright yelling at me that I am "being mean" to him (when in reality most always I try my best to be as nice as I can). I try to gather my confidence, hold my boundaries and tell him when he is getting out of line, but boy I'm going to blow up at him too if this goes on much longer.

I can understand he is upset, but what I cannot understand is what on earth I can do to make him calm down, stop being a baby and start working on this issue with me, instead of finding other issues everywhere and drowning himself in a pit of negativity.

He has a lot of other stress and work troubles too, which doesn't make this any easier for either of us.

I guess I just really cannot handle any of my husband's childish tantrums about small things anymore. No matter how upset he would've been, in my mind it doesn't give him the right to pick on everything I do or say. I am trying to enforce boundaries when he acts out in public or in an especially hurtful way. I realize I haven't had very firm boundaries (mostly none at all) earlier in our relationship so I have probably paved the way for him to act like a baby. Now it's going too far though.

Well, if anyone has input, I'm welcome to all kinds of opinions. I am also at fault in the creation of our communication breakdown, and there might be something I am not seeing. At the moment it just feels like I am the only grown-up person in the room and my husband doesn't want to take responsibility to work on this issues with me. I haven't been always open to working on his issues with him, though, so in that way he is entitled to his feeling. I haven't gone nuts on him and yelled at him seven times a day, but I have been guilty of not taking his emotions as seriously as I should have. 

Goodness. I guess I just needed to vent. I know what we both need now is a couple of days of calm and quiet, without any relationship talk or troubles. I hope we can have that. Then we would be able to discuss things in a more grown up manner. Hope so at least.



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In case someone really gets interested, below are my previous posts about our relationship:

Lnow I should be the first one to fix it — but d4mn it's hard

Communication problems — and neither of us knows how to fix it

Husband's depression and nager is exhausting me


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

tiredandout said:


> I try to gather my confidence, hold my boundaries and tell him when he is getting out of line, but boy I'm going to blow up at him too if this goes on much longer.


You want to avoid telling him when he's getting out of line. Even if he is, nothing good will come from it. Avoid ever saying "you" and always avoid telling him how to act. Say only, 

"_When you . . . . .

I feel . . . . .

I want . . . .

Since I am powerless over you, I will take this action to protect myself if you behave in this way._"

If things are very tense between you two it is better to simply say this to yourself and not voice it. There is more of this at Setting Personal Boundaries - protecting self

It takes some practice to learn how to protect yourself and what you have control over. I have found that there is a lot of suffering involved even if you have good boundaries; that suffering usually stems from a loss of intimacy. When you have good boundaries with dysfunctional people it always results in a loss of intimacy with that person, which hurts a lot. We usually engaged the dysfunctional person emotionally in order to avoid this loss; but of course we still lose intimacy and also our sanity. 

But there is the hope that if you start practicing healthy boundaries, and stop feeding the fire, that he'll turn around. I started experimenting with boundaries about three or four years ago and my H has come around, too. As the fire went out in me it also went out in him. 



tiredandout said:


> I can understand he is upset, but what I cannot understand is what on earth I can do to make him calm down, stop being a baby and start working on this issue with me, instead of finding other issues everywhere and drowning himself in a pit of negativity.[/URL]


You dont need to make him calm down or make him work on issues with you, or make him do anything. Try and get away from making him do things. Let him be. You have to learn how to stay calm when he freaks out, walk away, and separate yourself from his drama. 


The best book I have found for boundaries is Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend. They also have a boundaries book called When to Say Yes When to Say No. 

Boundaries are not enough, though. Most of it is an emotional imbalance. There are many fears of losing the relationship and so you engaged dysfunctionally to salvage whatever you can. To get yourself emotionally on track try googling Bryon Katie's, The Work. There is also Earkhart Tolle's The Power of Now and Seat of the Soul by Gary Zukav.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tiredandout said:


> Me and my husband have arrived at a horrible situation, where we cannot communicate properly at all.


Tired, it sounds like your H's issues are far more serious than a lack of communication skills. The behaviors you describe -- temper tantrums, verbal attacks on your character, low self esteem, lack of impulse control, inability to trust, blame-shifting, distorted perception of your intentions and motivations, and black-white thinking -- are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. 

Significantly, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they are so strong that they distort the person's perception of other peoples' intentions, thereby undermining a marriage and other LTRs. It sounds like your H may have such traits at a moderate to strong level. 

If so, it is very unlikely he will improve substantially because it is rare for such a person to be willing to stay in therapy long enough (several years at least) to make a difference. I therefore suggest you read about BPD traits to see if most of them describe your H's behavior. I also suggest that you ask your IC about them.


> I guess I just really cannot handle any of my husband's childish tantrums about small things anymore.


If your H has strong BPD traits, his emotional development stopped at about age four, leaving him stuck with the primitive ego defenses available to a young child. These include projection (blaming you for everything), denial, magical thinking, and black-white thinking. And, like a young child, he will throw tantrums whenever he does not get his way.


> he has gotten angry about many things so minute I cannot even remember them, several times a day.


If he is a BPDer (i.e., has moderate to strong BPD traits), this is easy to explain. First, the anger is always there right under the skin. He has been carrying enormous anger and shame inside since early childhood. This means you don't have to do anything to CREATE the anger. It already exists. Hence, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is alway there. This is why a BPDer can get furious -- in only 10 seconds -- over issues so minor that you cannot even remember what they were a day later.

Second, because a BPDer's emotional development was frozen at a young age, he never learned how to do self soothing -- a skill that the rest of us learned in childhood. Hence, one of your roles in the marriage is to be a "soothing object." If he persuades you to play that role -- and so far he has been very successful at it -- you will become an enabler. 

That is, you will enable him to continue behaving like a spoiled, angry four year old -- and GET AWAY WITH IT. In that way, you are harming him by destroying his only chance of confronting his issues and learning how to control them, e.g., learning how to do self soothing.


> he doesn't see that his _WAY_ of communicating is very destructive... messages like ... "you are [..]" "always" "you never".


This use of extreme expressions like "you always" and "you never" is called black-white thinking, which is one of the hallmarks of BPDers. It occurs because they have little tolerance for ambiguities and mixed feelings. That is, they do not want to deal with grey areas and the middle ground. 

This all-or-nothing thinking will be most evident in the way a BPDer categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- i.e., as "with me" or "against me." And he will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or trivial infraction. Like projection and denial, black-white thinking is one of the primitive emotional defenses that we all use in childhood (and we occasionally use all through adulthood whenever we become very angry or very infatuated).


> in my husband's childhood home someone stating a difference of opinion almost always resulted in a yelling match.


It sounds like he was raised in a very dysfunctional home. I mention this because 70% of BPDers report that they were abused or abandoned in childhood.


> My husband has gone berserk. I cannot do anything without him complaining to me about it, be it a negative remark or outright yelling at me that I am "being mean" to him.


If he is a BPDer, he is absolutely convinced that he is a perpetual "victim." Because he has a very fragile sense of who he is, he will keep a death grip on that false self image of being "the victim." This means he will stay with you only as long as you continue validating that false image. There are only two ways to do this: being "the savior" or "the perpetrator."

During your honeymoon period, his infatuation over you permitted him to view you as his savior. Of course, the implication of his "being saved" was that he must have been "the victim" in need of saving. But he really did not want to be saved from anything. Rather, he only wanted validation of his false self image. That's why, every time you pulled him from the raging seas, he jumped right back into the water as soon as you turned around.

As soon as the honeymoon ended, however, the infatuation evaporated -- allowing his two great fears to return. This means that you started triggering his anger and thus could no longer be perceived of as a savior. At that point, then, your role became that of "perpetrator," i.e., the cause of every misfortune that befalls him. This, then, is why he blames you for everything. 

Because you are continuing to validate his role as "victim," he will regard you as a valuable asset even though he will constantly complain about you. This is why BPDers remain married for years to people whom they often are demeaning and abusing. And this is why the #2 best selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._


> Just have to tiptoe around the house until he calms down (your 11/1 post).


Your tiptoeing is called "walking on eggshells." This is what the partners of BPDers do to avoid triggering the anger. This is why the #1 best selling BPD book (targeted to the partners) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> What I cannot understand is what on earth I can do to make him calm down, stop being a baby and start working on this issue with me.


You can't do a single thing to help him. If he has strong BPD traits, he is the only person who can make the needed changes -- and he will not get very far without obtaining professional guidance in intensive therapy for several years. Until then -- and there is little chance that will ever occur -- he will remain unhappy and periodically suffer from depression and anxiety. Sadly, it took me 15 years to realize that it is impossible to make an unhappy person feel happy. They have to do that for themselves.


> I have probably paved the way for him to act like a baby.


Yes, you have and it's very insightful for you to be able to see that. As I said above, you've been enabling him to continue behaving like a four year old. The result is that your marriage quickly became toxic, harming both of you. Significantly, it takes two willing people to form and sustain a toxic marriage. 

Hence, the toxicity is not something HE is doing to you. Instead, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Your contribution, as I indicated, is that you are enabling him to continue behaving like a child. Your relationship therefore likely has quickly evolved into a parent-child type relationship that is unhealthy for both of you. To break that pattern, it is important to build strong personal boundaries and to enforce those boundaries -- as Blanca advised above. I therefore applaud your decision to work on yourself so as to bring your codependency traits under better control.


> Whereas I have for the past 9 months been in the process of trying to learn to speak to him with kindness, with "I" messages, rephrasing what he says to make sure I understand, sharing my feelings instead of blaming him. ...I have expressed him how his way of talking makes me feel,* with no effect*.


If your H is a BPDer, learning better communication skills in MC likely will be a total waste of time and money. Indeed, if you teach a BPDer better communication skills, his behavior may simply get worse because he will be better at manipulating you. The problem is that he has a disordered way of thinking that distorts his perception of your intentions and motivations. 

Moreover, he likely is incapable of trusting you. This prevents you from reasoning with him because he simply won't believe you. On top of all that, the disordered thinking is so perfectly natural to him -- being the way he has been thinking since early childhood -- that the distortions and BPD traits are invisible to him. Generally, BPDers have a vague awareness that something is seriously wrong but they are too afraid to confront the problem at a conscious level.


> I have lost myself, in a way.


Yes, to avoid triggering his anger, you likely stopped being "your old self" a year ago. It therefore is common for the partner of a BPDer to start feeling like she doesn't know who she is anymore. Indeed, living with a BPDer is so disorienting and confusing that a substantial share of these partners start to feel like they are going crazy. It is telling that, of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the nonBPD partners feel like they are losing their minds.


> I would go to IC if only I could afford.


Until you can afford IC, I suggest you read more about BPD traits so you are able to spot all nine of the red flags. Of course, only a professional can determine whether your H's BPD traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. Yet, even when the traits are well below that level, they can be strong enough to make your life miserable and undermine a marriage. Moreover, spotting strong occurrences of the traits is not difficult, because there is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, low self esteem, and verbal abuse.

A good place to start reading would be one of the two books I mention above. Alternatively, you may want to take a look at my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you or point you to good online resources. Take care, Tired.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you, *Blanca* and *Uptown*, for your insightful answers.

I agree with both of you about several points. I have, in fact, read that page about boundaries that Blanca suggested and found it useful. I have the book by Townsend also, but haven't really made past the first chapter. I should look into it more. I have tried to learn about boundary setting, but have found it quite difficult. I have succeeded in some small moments, but I agree that it takes constant effort and reminding myself about this format over and over again: 



> "When you . . . . .
> 
> I feel . . . . .
> 
> ...


I don't walk around telling him "Don't do that, that's outta line!", but there is certainly room for improvement in the way that I have expressed them, to make the message very clear.



> You dont need to make him calm down or make him work on issues with you, or make him do anything. Try and get away from making him do things. Let him be. You have to learn how to stay calm when he freaks out, walk away, and separate yourself from his drama.


This is very true. My initial post was written in the midst of deep frustration. Most of the time I have understanding that I cannot _make him_ do anything, and it is not even my job. My job is to define my own boundaries, stand up for them, and also to stand responsible for my own actions and words. 

I have noticed that enforcing boundaries, even ever so slightly as I have managed to do, gives me more clarity and makes me calmer. I have also taken steps to teach myself to separate my feelings from his feelings, and not get wrapped up in his upsets. The few moments where I have succeeded, I celebrate as victories. Should just work on it more, and more consistently, to make that the norm.

*Uptown*, 
in fact I have done some reading before about borderline disorder as well as bipolar disorder, when trying to see whether or not my husband's behavior would fit those descriptions. We have even discussed the possibility of him having bipolar together, with _him_ being the one who brought it up. 

He seems to portray these "disorderly" traits mostly when under great deals of stress, though, so I cannot say if he fits the bill. But I do agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I very much agree that it is not only him hurting the marriage. I know I have played, and keep playing, a big part in causing these destructive patterns. I have been trying to learn about setting boundaries and in fact am in IC at the moment to work on my self-esteem, codependency and boundary issues. There are not many visible results from this yet, but some very small things are maybe beginning to change. At least I feel like they can, if I keep working on it relentlessly. 

When I said "what can i do to make him calm down" I guess really was looking for an answer to the question *"What is it that I should do to stop enabling him to act this way?"* 

You have given me some insight to this, I will read both your responses through again try to find the answer. 

I realize I have taught him it is okay to act like a 4-year-old (and really, this is the most accurate way to describe the tantrums that one could have!!) — and I have done this even after reading about boundaries, tantrums and how to deal with them, because letting him get his way has sometimes just felt so much _easier_ then standing my ground and stating my boundaries. Of course this is wrong.

I have realized I have quite strong codependency traits, even in other relationships. My work towards being a healthier person has already begun, but it is true I should quickly build up to enforcing my boundaries in our marriage, in order to prevent the damaging patterns from going on any longer.

Thank you both for your answers. I will try to look into the material you suggested.


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## accept (Dec 1, 2011)

For a start dont call him a baby or something similar.
If you cant express yourself in ways he understands then write them down for him to read.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

As said, the initial post was written in deep frustration. I have _never_ called my husband a "baby", told him his behavior was "immature" or told him that he was "getting out of line". 

I have tried to express my feelings in this manner of saying "I feel ... when you ...". But of course one's thoughts become one's actions and I do have _thought_ that my husband was acting immaturely. Thus, I am also working on increasing acceptance in my thoughts — and slowly but steadily it is working. Today has been a step to the better direction, and the couple frustration points we have had, have passed by quite quickly.

Direction is for the better, and I'm working on keeping it that way.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

tiredandout said:


> We have even discussed the possibility of him having bipolar together, with _him_ being the one who brought it up.


Perhaps he does have bipolar disorder. The behaviors you are describing, however, are far closer to BPD traits. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. Significantly, you are describing the latter, not the former.

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Significantly, you are describing tantrums lasting only a few hours.

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, you are describing event-triggered mood changes that occur in a few seconds.

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will. Significantly, you are describing a man who cannot trust you -- most likely because he never learned to trust himself or anyone else.

Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder.


> He seems to portray these "disorderly" traits mostly when under great deals of stress, though, so I cannot say if he fits the bill.


As I said, all of us occasionally exhibit BPD traits and they tend to be worse when we are under great stress. That said, BPDers exhibit these traits far more often and more strongly because they handle stress very poorly. Moreover, they create stress where it doesn't even exist, seeing evil intent in your most mundane of actions. They are over-sensitive to interactions with other people, particularly so when they love that person.


> When I said "what can i do to make him calm down" I guess really was looking for an answer to the question *"What is it that I should do to stop enabling him to act this way?"*


As you already know, and as Blanca explained so clearly, the way to stop being an enabler is to establish strong personal boundaries and to enforce them. It is important to realize, however, that changing your own behavior probably will NOT cause him to change his behavior if he has strong BPD traits. You have no control -- at all -- over his behavior.


> I realize I have taught him it is okay to act like a 4-year-old


No, you did not teach him that. If he is a BPDer, he never learned to act otherwise. He therefore has been behaving that way since he was four years old. Hence, if he is unwilling to change -- and so far he has been -- your only choice is whether to stay in the marriage where he will continue abusing you and blaming you for all his problems. If you decide to enforce your personal boundaries, there is a very tiny chance he will decide to seek therapy and change. It is far far more likely, however, that he will leave you, declaring that you "have become distant" from him. Like I said, a BPDer is desperate to have only a partner who will continually validate his false self image of being "the victim." Once you stop doing that, Tired, he likely will not want you around.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

tiredandout said:


> I have noticed that enforcing boundaries, even ever so slightly as I have managed to do, gives me more clarity and makes me calmer. I have also taken steps to teach myself to separate my feelings from his feelings, and not get wrapped up in his upsets. The few moments where I have succeeded, I celebrate as victories. Should just work on it more, and more consistently, to make that the norm.


I think boundaries are essential tools but they dont give you a solid foundation for staying calm. You work on them like you would work on learning grammar and sentence structure in school; but the real context and selling point will be the emotional work that you do. Until you have a change of heart boundaries will be very difficult to implement. 

I remember the day I had a change of heart towards my H. We were walking in the supermarket and I looked at him- but I mean really looked at him. Up until that point there had been so much fighting between us that when I looked at him I never really saw him. I was so wrapped up inside myself with my own needs (which at the time I believed were the needs of the "relationship") that he sort of eluded me. That day when I did finally see him I saw how sad, tired, and depressed he looked. Suddenly I realized that he was hurting just as much as I was. Next time your H goes off just look at him and feel the sadness in him. Dont make it about you; just feel how sad he is.

At that point I started to become his friend in our struggles instead of constantly trying to get something from him; be it peace for myself or love from him. This is where boundaries will come into play because you cannot relinquish yourself in your desire to help a depressed spouse; but the change of heart will take you in the right direction when you try to apply boundaries. If you try and apply boundaries before you have a change of heart it will be a lot like trying to write an essay, the topic of which you dont care about.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Blanca, thank you for your response. How lucky I am to be able to get feedback from such wise people.



> At that point I started to become his friend in our struggles instead of constantly trying to get something from him; be it peace for myself or love from him. This is where boundaries will come into play because you cannot relinquish yourself in your desire to help a depressed spouse; but the change of heart will take you in the right direction when you try to apply boundaries. If you try and apply boundaries before you have a change of heart it will be a lot like trying to write an essay, the topic of which you dont care about.


This note came at the exact right time. I have been trying to convince myself that these things that I need are things that we _both_ need. And that that would make them most important. 

I look at my husband and I can see a tired, beaten down man who feels lonely and disrespected. I should just concentrate on being a friend and a companion to that man. At the moment I get too wrapped up in anger when he expresses his complaints, doesn't want to see that this problem is for both of us to fix or does things that I have specifically asked him not to.

But the truth is, he must feel exactly the same way! He must feel I do all those things to him, too.

We're at a painful stale mate, but I have a choice to step out of my bunker and reach out to him. Both of us having gotten so hurt, it is difficult. But I should at least try. Thank you for this, Blanca.

I hope it's not too late.


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## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

Hello,

You have already taken a step that most people seeking help have not. You are informing yourself on the basic skills of building a balanced relationship and are working on developing the habits necessary to support that. This is a very good endeavour and I suggest you continue doing that. 

Based on what you wrote it seems that your husband feels powerfully disrespected by you and that takes priority over all other feelings causing a toxic level of negativity between you. 

I can understand your confusion as often women do not realize when or how they come across as disrespectful you their partner similarly as men do not realize when they come across as unloving. This is surprising to hear for most couples and the reason is a basic difference in the way men and women communicate. 

You see it is likely that you feel that instances when he is being unloving are plainly obvious for anyone. In truth they are plainly obvious for most women as most men will notice him retaliating against disrespectful behaviour. Symmetrically for most men it is obvious when behaviour is disrespectful but women will notice a retaliation because of unloving behaviour. 

Generalizing things you are stuck in a common cycle in relationships: You yell about him being unloving, he yells about lack of respect. 

To improve the situation you need to get information, training and practice in supporting your husband emotionally. Being supportive of each other is at the heart of a relationship and each partner has slightly different responsibilities. 

I will list a short description of what you and him need to do to properly show support. However I strongly suggest you seek the assistance of a counsellor to help both of you develop new habits of communication. Doing it by yourself with the level of toxicity you now have it is very difficult and may not succeed.

*WOMAN Supportive*

Be proficient in supporting your partner emotionally. Generally this equates to showing respect to the man. We can categorize the emotional support a man needs into 6. 
Trust –You trust his skills in dealing with his problems. You respect and trust his judgment and his abilities.
Acceptance - he needs to feel that he pleases you. He needs to feel you accept and appreciate him for who he is and not trying to change and improve him. 
Appreciation – he would like to feel that you are grateful for the love and respect he shows you, that you are grateful for his providing for you and not that routine daily activities are no longer worthy of appreciation.
Admiration – you admire his victories and his displays of skill 
Approval - you approve of him as a person and of his behavior. 
Encouragement – you encourage him in a positive way to grow and evolve in skill and status, especially when he experiences setbacks

*MAN Supportive*

Be proficient in supporting your partner emotionally. Generally this equates to showing love to the woman. We can categorize the emotional support a woman needs into 6. 
Caring – you are concerned with her well being, you protect and provide for her
Understanding – you understand her emotions and allow her to express them
Respect – you respect her way of doing things even though it may not be familiar to you. You especially respect her intuition. 
Devotion- you are devoted to loving her and are generous at that 
Validation – you validate her emotions giving her the right to feel negative and positive emotions at any point in time and express them to you to receive the validation she needs
Reassurance – during negative emotion cycles a woman will usually feel unsure of herself or your feelings for her and it is then that she most needs the assurance and stability you provide


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Thank you for your answer, FreedomCorp.

You have truly summarized the situation well. This says it all:


> You yell about him being unloving, he yells about lack of respect.


The lists about feeling respected and feeling loved seem pretty accurate to me too, I already have known that several of those things are what my husband expects of me, and have tried my best. But of course — as the situation so clearly shows — there is much room for improvement.

Well, at the moment my husband is not really talking to me, but when he has, I do try to respond with patience and kindness. Otherwise I actually just feel quite calm and will see what happens. I have admitted my mistakes and asked for forgiveness, and now am trying my best to put my own demands aside and treat my husband with the love that I feel for him. Leaving all relationship talk aside.

I hope in a couple of days (or weeks..) he will be able talk calmly with me about what went wrong and what we can do to prevent it from happening again. To be perfectly honest, if he then will continue to not accept any blame and maintain it is all for me to fix and that all our problems start with me — he is in for a wake-up call. For now, I know he is angry and I am perfectly happy to allow him time to cool off as looong as he needs, before he is ready to talk about our issues. I just hope that day will come.

Let's see. Exciting times.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

tiredandout said:


> We're at a painful stale mate, but I have a choice to step out of my bunker and reach out to him. Both of us having gotten so hurt, it is difficult. But I should at least try. Thank you for this, Blanca.
> 
> I hope it's not too late.


I'm glad I could help. I hope things improve for you. Just remember that if reaching out to him causes any resentment in you, then don't reach out. That's where boundaries come in to play. It's OK to stay away from him and let him deal with himself. Of course you will feel bad for him (because of your change of heart) but take care of your own peace.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

I hope things will improve, too. So far, they haven't. 

I have tried to be my husband's friend, in the moments when he has wanted to talk to me. Yet I haven't accepted his view that everything that has gone wrong in our relationship has "started and ended" with me (his words). 

It is truly a challenge. Can't help to think about Uptown's descriptions of BPD, when my husband is yelling that he hates himself, he hates everybody and everybody else hates him, that his life is horrible, I am being mean to him and I should just kill him. This kind of talk is difficult to respond to even when things otherwise have been fine, so now, when things have been rough it is even harder. 

I think my husband's biggest stress and sorrow at the moment is that he doesn't have many friends. And hardly any good ones. So then, when we end up in a rough patch — and especially now that he literally stopped talking to me for a day or two — he finds himself lost: in desperate need of someone to talk to, but no one in sight. I have offered to help him find new friends here or some help, but he says he has tried and everyone was horrible to him. But feeling alone drives him insane, too. And frankly, it's not good for me either. 

There is too much pressure on me and on our relationship to provide my husband with everything he needs in life. I also want my partner to be my friend, supporter, lover and playmate, but I don't expect him to be my _only_ friend. I know that sometimes things get tough and having other people around is a huge asset. Also I depend heavily on myself, I get the best support and feedback (sometimes even very rough criticism) from myself, in my journals, where I discuss things over with my inner voice.

Oh how I wish the mental health care system here hadn't abandoned my husband 6 months ago. With that he has lost all hope in professional help (and he didn't have much to begin with). I see my husband in need of a great deal of help, love and support, and I want to give it to him — but at the same time I know (from past experience) that I cannot be the only one helping and supporting him, and even if I was, I cannot devote all my time to that. I cannot save him, he needs to help himself, too. 

In some moments catch myself thinking that I'm not strong enough to enforce my newly found boundaries and develop as a person with someone who is so confused himself. Then again I love this man, and cannot possible think of abandoning him in the midst of the emotional turmoil he is in.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I guess there lies the problem. I *know* that have to be the one to fix it. I know someone has to take the plunge, and I know it has to be me. (Your 11/18 post.)


No, Tired, the problem is that you cannot possibly "fix it" by yourself. The hallmark of being a codependent caregiver is the mistaken belief that, if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your spouse to that wonderful human being you saw at the beginning. The reality is that only HE is capable of fixing himself. I learned the hard way -- and it took me 15 years to learn it -- that it is impossible to make an unhappy person feel happy. They have to be able to do that for themselves.


tiredandout said:


> Can't help to think about Uptown's descriptions of BPD, when my husband is yelling that he hates himself, he hates everybody and everybody else hates him, that his life is horrible, I am being mean to him and I should just kill him.


Yes, as you know, self-loathing and low self esteem is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. Yet, if your H has most BPD traits at a strong level, they would be persistent -- disappearing only for perhaps six months during the honeymoon period (when his infatuation over you would have held his two great fears at bay). 

At issue, then, is whether your H's dysfunctional behavior is a temporary response to his stress of trying to adjust to a very unfriendly foreign culture or, rather, a persistent behavior that started showing itself in his late teens (as typically happens with BPDers). It is hard to determine that from what you've shared with us because you mention nothing of his life that occurred prior to your initial post seven months ago.

It therefore would be helpful if you would shed light on several questions. Did you not see any red flags in his behavior before you two moved to your home country? How long did you date him prior to marriage? Did he speak badly about all his prior GFs? What sort of relationship does he have with his own family members? Why is it that his family will not lend you support the way that your family does? Was he abused or abandoned in early childhood?


> Oh how I wish the mental health care system here hadn't abandoned my husband 6 months ago.


In what way did they abandon him? Were they unwilling to treat his depression?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Communication is a dance.

Someone talks, you validate their feelings (EVEN IF YOU DON'T AGREE) and then you add your opinion/feelings/thoughts and they validate even if they don't agree. 

It's a mellow thing. No yelling. 

When people feel heard, validated and respected it's much easier to disagree and communicate.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

> It therefore would be helpful if you would shed light on several questions. *Did you not see any red flags in his behavior before you two moved to your home country?


Let me think about this one. Well, we met each other when we were visiting a country foreign to both of us and after that our relationship truly began as an LDR. In the very beginning everything was, of course, perfect. The second time we met, we were staying at someone else's house and my husband did get upset with me that I wanted to spent time our host (together with him) one time, when he would've just wanted to be with me alone. To feel that way in itself of course is not strange, but the way he got angry without explaining himself and then refused to hear my side of the story, just blame me until I apologized — that I didn't find perfectly normal. But then again he had been traveling for almost a year and was very tired and stressed out. I thought it was just that.

Later on he did explode on me twice during our LDR phase. They were both fights due to miscommunication. On the first time I misinterpreted something he had said when in a very stressful situation and got upset. The other time he became extremely upset that I wasn't there to listen to his emotions, even though I was exhausted after working overtime until the night and had explained that. Both these situations, again, I could understand why he would feel upset. But the _way_ in which his upsets manifested have struck with me. He got very angry at me and the more I tried to explain myself, the more furious he grew. He wouldn't hear my side of the story at all, even though I would show understanding to his. After the first LDR fight I remember telling him that "I have never fought like that with anyone and I hope to never do it again." Needless to say, that was wishful thinking. 

After all, though, it is difficult for me to say if it is how he would "normally" be, since he was already in the middle of a very stressful time when I met him. But then again, he seems to have always been in the middle of a stressful time. He has taught himself several professions and all these lines of work seem to be very rewarding to him, but at the same time extremely stressful. He even seems to like it that way, but always at some point it becomes too much and he needs to get away.



> How long did you date him prior to marriage?


*

Not long enough. But, being that we come from half way around the world from each other, we basically needed to get married to be able to stay together in the same place for longer than 3 months. So we got married after knowing each other for 9 months. I had my doubts, but at the time I was sure that we could help each other out through the rough patches (which we were doing then) and the love and joy we had for each and the attitude towards the future we shared would keep us happy otherwise.

Lately I have found myself thinking, that we certainly rushed into things. I think in the beginning he was very strongly taking the relationship forward (joking about marriage already at a _very_ early stage for example) and I was the one more cautious, I had feelings for him but I wasn't ready to run across the globe just to be with him. Well, he did it for me, and then we got married to stay that way. 

I have been very young and inexperienced in serious relationships before him. I would've severely benefitted from having a longer dating period to learn to trust him and accept that he trusted me, to learn to be vulnerable with him more naturally — the way things went was that he was frustrated that I wasn't open enough and I in a way had to force myself to a level of emotional intimacy with him, that I hadn't experienced before. In some senses this was very good for me. In other ways I would've hoped that he would've offered me support and kindness through the process and not only guilt when he felt I wasn't developing fast enough. Yesterday he finally told me that he was proud that I had learned to talk about my feeling much more. After weeks of having listened to how the new way I had started to express my feelings was wrong for him and "destructive" — it was finally good to hear some encouragement about it as well. Never too late.



> Did he speak badly about all his prior GFs?


Not really, maybe is the best answer. He had terrible experiences with his 1st GF in his youth, being cheated several times and as a result having lost all interest in women and their ability to be able to be faithful for years. He overcame a lot of those issues in a long-term relationship prior to me and after that. Apparently this last relationship ended because they simply couldn't meet each other anymore emotionally and were constantly fighting. I don't know much about this. At a high point of our fighting he once said "This is how it was with my last GF, I don't want it to be like this." What they fought about or what she brought into the mix I don't know about. He doesn't bash these girls or anything and now in hindsight recognizes things he did wrong in those relationships, too. 



> What sort of relationship does he have with his own family members?


With his mom, okay. They have recently started talking more and can chat about every day things. With the other men in his family it's a different story. Ever since his preteens (so basically ever since starting have opinions of his own) he has been in constant battle with his father. His father is a very dominating character, and doesn't seem to be able to express emotions in any other way then through anger. He clearly cares for his son dearly, but for years it has only come out as him yelling at my husband that he is doing things the wrong way, making bad choices and that he should make the choices his father made. My BIL has a very similar attitude towards him. Lately my husband's relationship with both of them has improved slightly but that only means that they don't constantly yell at each other anymore. 



> Why is it that his family will not lend you support the way that your family does?


Answer to this is above. My husband tries to talk about his problems to his family: his mother feels for him, but is mainly able to say "that's too bad. take care of yourself." and then move on to other things. FIL/BIL most likely blame him for having done something wrong and then will move on to something else.



> Was he abused or abandoned in early childhood?


As well, described above. His father was emotionally abusive in his childhood and adolescence, according to his description he controlled everyone in the family with fear, though there was no physical violence. He has felt and continues to feel emotionally abandoned by his family. He loves them dearly and yearns for their support, but gets none — or at least not the kind he is expecting.



I realize that he has problems, but knowing which kind of family he comes from I applaud him for how far he has gone already. After his first relationship and after leaving home he spent years in extreme depression, hardly talking to anyone. From that he picked himself up, learned to communicate with people (and now has very good powers of persuasion, too, and can be the centre of any party if he wants to) and has come quite a long way in controlling his anger issues (which use to be extremely bad, according to his words). I'm glad that writing this reminded me about the journey he has already traveled. I do admire him for how he has already managed to grow.

I myself still have much to learn about overcoming the unhealthy ways of dealing things I have learned in my past. Even though I have come past some quite difficult things already. We are both in for a lifelong of learning. I hope we can get out of this cycle of blame and move on to a place of understanding and support. 

I have made attempts towards that and some of them have been successful. At least we can talk about non-touchy subjects mostly in calm and understanding now. That is a start.


------------------------


That Girl, as a passionate dancer myself I definitely agree with your statement. 
Unfortunately me and my husband haven't been able to understand each other's ways of communicating and have interpreted things as attacks on each other that weren't meant that way. We both have a thing or two to learn about speaking to each other with love and listening with understanding.

Lately, the flow of our dance has been interfered by the fact that we have started to trip over each other's feet more and more often and have lost patience to interpret that as unintentional clumsiness but as a malicious intent to trip the other person over. 

This evening has gone a bit better. Maybe there's hope we will catch on to the beat again soon.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Also, about the mental health care system failing him:
In the middle of a very hard patch of depression and suicidal thoughts about 6 months ago he finally agreed he should see someone for help (he had been feeling bad here for a while already). He saw a crisis worker who he thought has no real grasp of the issues and didn't understand him. He didn't go again. Then he went to see a GP to see if they could refer him to a psychiatrist. The GP was actually great and an immigrant here himself, so he knew the hardship. However, none of the people he referred my husband to, would see him. They said either that they were too full booked or that they couldn't offer help in English. I was the one doing the calling around for him, and was prepared to continue, but after a while my husband said to forget it and that he wouldn't go if they didn't want him. He saw the GP a couple of times more and he tried to get a psychiatrist see my husband, but then the GP in question transferred and nobody ever got back to us.

Getting mental help in this country ridden with depression is not a task for the weak. At the time I was exhausted from maintaining our whole household, taking care of my husband as well as my master studies which included a lot of traveling cross-country. I was at the brink of a breakdown myself and unfortunately didn't have any more energy left to fight for my husband's care, when he started to be opposed it himself.

Now he wants nothing to do with doctors, as they bailed on him. Can't blame him.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Tired, like you, I admire your H for surviving a difficult childhood and for improving his control over his anger. Also like you, I don't blame him for washing his hands of the reluctant doctors there in your country.

Yet, if he has strong BPD traits, he won't get very far in healing himself on his own. He needs professional guidance. For that reason alone, I would recommend that he return to the UK or the USA where he can obtain treatment -- assuming, of course, that he would actually seek treatment and stay in it for a long time. And that is a big assumption because the vast majority of BPDers will not.

Based on what you said, the case for him having strong BPD traits is much stronger because you believe that his dysfunctional behavior may have been there from the beginning -- except, of course, for the honeymoon period. It may have been partially hidden by the LDR which put you out of touch often. As I said, BPD traits are persistent if a person has them at a strong level. This does not mean daily but, rather, that they do not disappear for a year at a time. They disappear only during infatuation, which typically lasts 3 to 6 months.


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## tiredandout (Jun 1, 2011)

Yes, well it is absolutely certain that he would not seek treatment back in his home country, unless we both moved there. At the moment both of us have reasons that prevent us from moving anywhere. And even if we would move, his home country is not high on our list. 

So, to be honest, him seeking help is not really a realistic option.

At the moment I am in IC and find it very useful, also with helping me to deal with things in our relationship. I learn new things about myself almost daily, and get better and better understanding for how I act. For now, I think this is what we will have going for us. That I will learn understanding for myself and thus also better ways of communicating and enforcing my boundaries with my husband. 

For now, there's no room for more drastic changes than that. We'll see how this develops then, I guess. Hopefully for the better. If my husband cannot tolerate the changes that happen in me, than I might have to say goodbye. I cannot control him. I can only control myself, and I am determined to learn and develop. I love him dearly. Time will tell whether our relationship will last and grow or not. 

Let's see.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Significantly, you are describing tantrums lasting only a few hours.


This, and many other symptoms you talked also fit my wife. But the psychiatrist suspected cyclothymia, which is kind of like bipolar disorder, but usually much faster. With her, the mood swings can occur within hours. 

Funnily enough though, I had thought that she had BPD myself, before the psychiatrist got involved. 

Regardless, since there is no single test for these disorders, it's sometimes difficult even for a professional to come up with a diagnosis. And maybe it doesn't even matter, as long as the treatment works.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

tiredandout, your post resonates with me a lot. I saw a lot of similarities to my relationship with my wife - the mood swings, walking on eggshells, and even sometimes blaming myself because English is not my native tongue.

Sorry you have to go through this, but there is one thing that I have been working on. Unfortunately, it seems to infuriate my wife, but it's true: I am not responsible for her feelings. Also, the psychiatrist reminded me that I can not keep rescuing my wife by keeping silent when I feel her behavior is unacceptable.

Will this result in more fights? Probably. But it will make you feel better about yourself. And when you do, you'll be able to deal with the fights better, and maybe even stop them before they escalate.

The worst thing I felt was the resentment. My wife would get angry, and I would back off in order to appease her. But I would start feeling resentment towards her, which increased when I felt like I was walking on eggshells.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

losing_hope said:


> This, and many other symptoms you talked also fit my wife. But the psychiatrist suspected cyclothymia.... I had thought that she had BPD myself, before the psychiatrist got involved.


LH, I strongly urge you to see your own clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two on your own -- to obtain a candid professional opinion. Relying on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney for advice during a divorce. _Her therapist is not your friend._ He is bound by professional ethics to protect his sick client (which will be her, even if you attend some of the sessions). 

I mention this because therapists are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder. One reason is that insurance companies usually refuse to cover BPD but will cover treatments for PTSD, cyclothymia, bipolar, depression and anxiety. Another reason is that therapists know that high functioning BPDers will almost certainly quit therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis. A third reason is that giving a BPDer such a diagnosis can actually make her behavior worse. This can happen because, by providing her with a new "identity" of being a BPDer, she may start exhibiting all 9 traits instead of only 5 or 6.

The result is that therapists generally are loath to give any high functioning BPDer the true diagnosis. Instead, they will tell the client and the insurance company that she has one of the disorders, like bipolar or cyclothymia, that are covered by insurance and do not carry the negative social stigma of having BPD.

Of course, your W may suffer from cyclothymia. My advice, however, is to believe it when you are told that by a psychologist loyal to you, not to your W. Significantly, childhood abuse -- particularly the sexual abuse your W suffered -- is strongly associated with having strong BPD traits. Further, the incidence of BPD (6% of the population) is far greater than that of cyclothymia (0.4% to 1%). 

Moreover, the event-triggered anger you describe in your threads (where the mood change occurs in seconds) is extremely rare for bipolar and cyclothymia sufferers. Only a tiny fraction of the cyclothymia sufferers cycle several times an hour. My foster-son, for example, is one of those rare individuals but even he is only able to do it when he is slipping from hypermania into psychosis. 

And, because 25% of BPDers have bipolar disorder too, finding a mild form of bipolar (cyclothymia) certainly does not rule out BPD. Further, the extreme anger and inability to trust you (described in your threads) are NOT traits of cyclothymia or bipolar. Rather, they are hallmarks of BPD.


> And maybe it doesn't even matter, as long as the treatment works.


It matters A LOT. At least 80% of bipolar sufferers are very successfully treated by their simply swallowing a pill. And the success rate for cyclothymia (a mild form of bipolar) must be even higher.

In contrast, there is no medication that can make a dent in BPD because this disorder does not arise from a change in body chemistry. Although medications can reduce the side effects of anxiety and depression, they do nothing to treat the BPD traits such as inability to trust, the anger, the self loathing, the lack of control over emotions, fragile self image, and the stunted emotional development. Changing those traits takes many years of intensive weekly therapy and it is rare for a BPDer to be willing to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. If you would like to discuss this further, LH, I would be glad to participate in one of your threads.


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## losing_hope (Dec 1, 2011)

Uptown said:


> If you would like to discuss this further, LH, I would be glad to participate in one of your threads.


Thanks. You know I wrote a whole response, but I feel that it's unfair to the OP to hijack this thread for my issues... So maybe I will post my response in my most recent one.


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