# Adventures in a strange new land



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

About 2 years ago my W and I began an involuntary journey together through a strange new place called menopausia. There are many odd creatures who inhabit this place and I have named a few below. This is my part of our story and with the exception of my feeble attempts at humor it is an accurate depiction of what has happened. 

The curious inhabitants of menopausia - as a side note they all live in the female body where they wreak their havoc directly. Her partner only experiences them indirectly:

- Heaters: These little critters can crank up the thermostat from a perfectly comfortable 70 degress to a scorching 90+ (perceived temperature - and in this case reality IS perception) in a New York minute. If you are in the middle of a hug - or a sexual tangle the heaters will cause your partner to request that you immediately remove your body/body parts and their associated radiant heat from her personal space. 

Heaters attack without warning, sometimes wreaking havoc and then slip quietly away. The good news is their assaults are typically brief.

Dryers: These folks are nasty. They tend to suck all the moisture out of your partners vajayjay. This leaves it dry and means that without lubrication, intercourse can be painful. 

Lust busters: Little thugs who sneak in and steal your W's libido. They work in utter silence and you have no idea how much havoc they are about to wreak on your sex life until they have finished their work. They do however seem to lack any commercial sense as they don't re-sell the libido to anyone else. Nope - they are vandals, they steal it and then destroy it. 

Psychopathogens: Possibly the worst of the lot. They produce periods of madness. And generally not happy/giggly madness. Nope. Mostly angry, combative, irrational craziness. 

Porkers: You guessed it - these critters eat and eat leaving your W about 5 pounds heavier on average after 3 years.

The gestalt on all this is that you have a partner who may lose most/all of their interest in sex. 

And that did happen to us to a degree. First my W got pelvic inflammation that lasted two months. While she repeatedly and kindly offered that I could use "other rides" in the amusement park I mostly waited until she felt better. I believe I took her up on her oral arguments once or twice. For the most part I felt bad for her. 

A year later - similar thing - similar duration. Main difference was that W was adamant that we play at least once a week. 

The last 6 months though have been very different. I didn't know it but she was feeling serious pain during sex. I have no idea why she didn't tell me. And while I feel stupid for not noticing - she likes to play "rough" so it would not have been easy to tell the difference between rough "fun" and rough "painful". 

Despite my super supportive/patient/understanding reaction to the two prior episodes of pelvic inflammation - this time W decided to just gut it our herself. Bad mistake, we were having sex at least once a week and sometimes it REALLY hurt her.  

Lately I have noticed her desire is low. So I have been very minimal in my requests for sex. 

This past weekend everything bubbled up. She should have told me what was going on and asked for a break in intercourse until we figure this out. Instead she provoked a series of fights to avoid sex. 

More on this tomorrow - I am tired


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Are you sure she fought with you just to avoid sex. it wasn't another of those pesky critters getting her on edge?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

34 Menopause Symptoms - Learn all about each menopausal symptom

MEM, 

We are created this way, we don't want all these. 

I didn't want to go through the pain giving birth to a child, but I had to do it. 

I don't want to have period every month, but I have to endure it. When I have my period, I am very tired and moody. I don't like it. 

And about ten years, I am going to face this menopause thing. I don't know what's going to happen to me, I don't want to think about it. 

Very often I see men leaving their wives after they lose sexual desire because of their menopause, I feel sad. These men forget all the sweet moments they had before. I think it is very unfair for us women. But what can I do? We are created this way. 

You are a loving man, I respect you a lot because you are a loving man. Please help her, just like she was giving birth to your lovely babies, right now your loving wife really needs your support. 

Please hug your wife for me. Please talk sweetly to your wife for me. Please help her for me! 

That's what I want from my husband when I am sick. I am just like a baby when I am sick.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chris,
Yes - because she actually told me so - but she didn't tell me until Monday morning. 

And you know what. I have forgiven her for that - but the path to forgiveness was rather painful. 




Chris Taylor said:


> Are you sure she fought with you just to avoid sex. it wasn't another of those pesky critters getting her on edge?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Greenpearl,
I agree that women have more "difficult" bodies. On the bright side yours last longer than ours 

My W was simply afraid to handle this in a civilized manner. From the start I have firmly told her that sex is not an "optional" part of marriage. 

The frustrating part for me is that I HAVE been supportive whenever she is sick, or in the past when she had episodes of pain. Totally supportive and totally patient. And she agrees with me that I was very patient/understanding in those situations. 

But she didn't want to talk about the "pain" because she really didn't want to open up a conversation about sex at all. And the reason for that is the bigger difficulty is her loss of desire. But she had a choice. She could be grown up about this and talk to me - she knows I love her and that I am patient. 

Instead she chose to be aggressive and mean. And so I explained to her that if our sex life was so stressful for her I would be willing to get my sexual needs met outside the marriage for as long as she wanted a "break". 

She got really really angry. She said I was treating her like some easily replaced piece of my life. I said 

"nothing could be further from the truth - I want to stay married - I am committed to you and to being together - all I am suggesting is that we take the pressure off you since clearly it is making you angry, tense and at least this past weekend you were borderline hostile just to avoid it". 

And she came back with "sure you want to take the pressure off me my breaking our vows - thanks a lot"

I shrugged and replied "I have been nice, supportive and understanding. The last 6 months I have generally not initiated unless I believed you really wanted to - which was not very often. I wasn't angry about it, I didn't treat you differently (meaning I continued to be a great H). I believed you were having a tough year with kid stuff, work stuff and menopause. This past weekend you said some really over the top things to me. So if you really need a break take one. But I am not going to be celibate because you have chosen not to tell me you were in pain - and now want to lay this situation at my door"




greenpearl said:


> 34 Menopause Symptoms - Learn all about each menopausal symptom
> 
> MEM,
> 
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM, 

She will feel very insecure if you tell her that. 

It hurts if it were me who was hearing this. 

She wants to please you, but when she is sick, she just can't. Just think like this, if you were sick, would you like her to say: I want sex, if you don't give me sex, I will go elsewhere to get it! It hurts if she says things like this. 

MEM, please treat her like a patient now since she is going through all these.

If a spouse is healthy, she doesn't want to have sex, then it is selfish. But if she is sick, the loving spouse will understand her situation and help her go through the difficulty. 

I a kind of feel that she is insecure and hurt by what you said. 

I do think you need to apologize to her for what you said. Sorry, MEM, when we hurt our loving spouse, we should apologize. I don't like to apologize, but if it is me who was wrong, I would apologize. You know me, a very proud woman actually. 

MEM, I know right now you and your wife are facing a test in life, but if both of you work together, the test will be overcame!!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> The last 6 months though have been very different. I didn't know it but she was feeling serious pain during sex. I have no idea why she didn't tell me. And while I feel stupid for not noticing - she likes to play "rough" so it would not have been easy to tell the difference between rough "fun" and rough "painful".
> 
> Despite my super supportive/patient/understanding reaction to the two prior episodes of pelvic inflammation - this time W decided to just gut it our herself. Bad mistake, we were having sex at least once a week and sometimes it REALLY hurt her.


Thanks for sharing all of this MEM.

The part I quoted above is the piece that brought my stuff up.

Ex did the same. This also occurred when we were in our full blush of love. She also tried to 'tough it out'. I'll never, ever forget looking down at her and realizing that she was gritting her teeth in pain, and there were tears in her eyes.

It did a serious number on me. You know the rest of the story. Our sex life was never the same again. She developed a full blown aversion to sex. I developed a full blown case of Nice Guy syndrome.

In your case it certainly seems that you and your wife have a much better dynamic and ability to communicate, although I find the 'grin and bear it' mindset absolutely baffling. Although I would guess that it initially stems from a place of still wanting to please us.

Hope you and your wife are able to talk it out and come up with a framework that you can both be happy with.

At the risk of sounding callous, menopause factored into my dating choices. I gravitated to partners who were further away from that event in an effort to kick start my own lack of sexuality over many years. Biology can be cruel. There is also Andropause. And just when I was ready to storm the sexual amusement park - my season pass got revoked. Seems like a cruel joke.

I certainly wish both you and your wife well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,


EXTREME FITNESS TESTING:
I hoped you would post recognizing the similarities. This is how far she had let it go as of Friday:
- She was very angry at me - believed that because I had told her from the start sex wasn't optional she had no choice but to gut it out even though it had become really painful. 
- Compounding all that was her lack of desire itself making it even "less" fun. More miserable. 

Friday night: We have a minor exchange of words. We were both wrong but the actual conflict was very minor
Saturday: A series of interactions where it is clear she doesn't want to make up and in fact she slowly escalates
Sunday: A quiet but steady escalation of tension. Sunday night she tells me she is "worn out from 21 years of fighting and doesn't know if she can do it anymore". This was the attempt to emotionally castrate - the subtext was stop arguing with me or we are done. I was astonished by that comment because we very rarely fight, and when we do it is typically brief and not ugly and even that weekend there had been no hateful comments in either direction. On top of that this is the same woman who routinely volunteers that I am a great guy and I treat her "like gold"

I told her if she felt that way then that I clearly needed to increase my travel schedule and that if overall she wasn't happy she needed to do what was best for her. And then I got in bed and went to sleep. 

Monday morning she texts me something nice - I call her and she tells me about the pain, the loss of desire and how that caused her to "want" to fight to avoid having sex. I calmly explained that I have always been supportive and patient when she has a physical issue and that telling me to "back down" or risk divorce when she was the one initiating hostilities was over the top. Warning: I now slip into sociopath mode - it may permanently alter your opinion of me adversely if you keep reading. 

I suggested that a GF might be a better solution for both of us. She told me that was a very hurtful thing to say. I pointed out that she had engineered a series of conflicts culminating in a borderline threat of divorce in a totally camouflaged attempt to get me to not initiate sex. She did that when instead she simply could have told me she was in pain/not in the mood. I explained that if sex was making her that miserable - a GF seemed like a sane answer to me. She apologized for not telling me what had been happening and we ended on a friendly note agreeing to talk more that night. 

Monday night we start out calm and rational. And I pushed the whole "desire" thing. I explained that we could play other ways open ended if she was in pain - provided she was not in some "aversion" mode. Her response was to tell me she wasn't sure she could "do this - meaning have sex with me" for another 15-20 years. I told her I was sorry she felt that way. She offered to connect later that night and I tactfully declined.

So Monday night I do the replay:
- Sunday night was "don't argue if you want to stay married - an attempt to emotionally castrate"
- Monday night was "don't ask for sex if you want to stay married" - "loosely speaking this is physical castration for a man"

I am quiet. We go to sleep. 

Tuesday early evening we go for a walk. And we started talking about "marital needs". It was a constructive and pleasant discussion. I have two, respect and sex. Her list is a lot longer. 

About 2 miles away from the house I explain why we seemed deadlocked:
To her it feels like she always "must have sex" with me since sex is not optional. And so if it gets to about one week she initiates and pretends to want to because it is her obligation.

To me sex is always optional on any given night. If she is tired, depressed, in pain, sick or just plain not in the mood. No problem. But then that is because I know that we WILL connect soon because we always have and she would never "starve" me. And when she had the inflammation thing I really did 100 percent stop initiating and really wasn't at all upset - it was a medical thing. But a loss of desire that might be permanent. Whole other world. I am not agreeable to being celibate. 

And this is where the totally practical side of me took over. I do a ton of stuff for her because it makes me happy to make her happy. And I am really good at "her". The combination of commitment and competence makes me a delightful companion in her eyes. 

That said I have always known that the biggest driver for her sexually was not "lust", but rather that she got genuine emotional pleasure from pleasing me. The same is true in reverse - but sex has always been easier for me because I feel lust as well. 

I am not willing to be in a marriage where I am "treating my W like gold" and she doesn't feel enough love to physically rock my world (doesn't have to be intercourse - in fact I don't want that if it hurts her). In fact it is worse than that. The idea that I would continue to:
- prioritize her needs first in most areas AND
- she was not only shutting down sexually but demanding celibacy 

That was a total non-starter. So 2 miles from the house I said:
"I want to stay married, I am committed to you and our family. Clearly sex is now a big issue for you. I think the idea of a GF is extreme and frankly should scare both of us as it will greatly complicate things emotionally. That said, celibacy is not acceptable to me. While I know it will be a big step down for me, and I am only going in this direction given your lack of desire, I think the safest answer is some type of non-emotional - paid for sex." 

She immediately and quietly flipped out. I explained while we walked that such an arrangement posed no risk to the marriage and let her off the hook. 

She proceeded to tell me that being proactive and logical was fine up to a point but that I seemed to be looking at this more as a business transaction than a marriage. I asked her what she expected me to do given the context. And she replied that I should just wait and see what happens. 

I started laughing - I wasn't being mean - this was genuine laughter - pretty hard. Caught my breath and said "Lets acknowledge the sequence, Sunday night you almost threaten me with divorce over basically nothing, Monday night you tell me you can't imagine having to have sex with me for another 15-20 years" and Tuesday night you are telling me I should just sit back and "see what happens". How about this - reverse the situation and tell me that I can say "I'm not attracted to you and thinking of divorcing you unless you behave in a totally subservient way". And tell me you are going to be agreeable to just sitting back and "seeing what happens". And then I laughed again. "Be real".

For the next 15 minutes we walked in silence. She breaks the silence with "I want to stay married. It is important to me to be a good wife to you and that includes having a great sex life. I will work as hard as I need to, to make this work"

And I replied "I will work just as hard. This is a partnership and your happiness is just as important to me as mine is". 

And really that was all I was looking for. My W doesn't have a quota. I know menopause is tough. She simply doesn't get to "dismiss" 50% of my "needs". That just doesn't seem even close to fair. And I will bet that it will be a very very long time before she even thinks to say "I am worn out from X years of fighting". 

And when we got home we played verbal tennis for about an hour. She was angry at the "idea" of pay sex. She attempted to adopt a posture of righteous indignation that I would consider "cheating". She said "I am never going to forget this" 

And I kept repeating with a smile, we can talk about my "suggested transgression" as many times as you like. We can talk about it every week for the next decade. You can share this with anyone you like in our social circle with one absolute requirement. The "pay for sex" conversation is described in context. You start with Sunday nights discussion and then Monday nights. And THEN you get into what I said tonight. In fact I said I am actually looking forward to this - the guys are going to "love it". At which point she completely switched gears. 

Staring at me in a kind of scary way - if you need a good visual I suggest that you google "psycho girlfriend" on youtube. She said "If anyone ever touchs that - ever - for any reason I am going to cut it off and I am not kidding." 

I was tempted to ask if that meant I was prohibited from masturbation - but she was on a roll so I thought best not to play the game of deliberate misinterpretation. 

Instead I asked "are you asserting that I am your property here? Kind of like a slave? I need to know what kind of slave, A field slave, A house slave? A sex slave?" "All of the above she replied primly. Now go take a shower and get clean so we can play"





Deejo said:


> Thanks for sharing all of this MEM.
> 
> The part I quoted above is the piece that brought my stuff up.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow. Haven't got much else at the moment. Just, wow.

That whole scenario would have absolutely gone to hell in a handbasket if shoved into the lap of most other men.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Yup, I'm also wowed. If someone grabbed a grenade, pulled the pin, and handed it to you - I'm pretty sure you could talk the grenade into becoming a birthday candle.

Your story made me realize something (and thank you so much for all that insight).

My wife is 38, (through inquiries I learn her mom started menopause mid 30's) - she is hot and cold at night and drives me crazy with the window, she is forgetful as hell like when she was pregnant, she is moody and unpredictable, she is hot and horny for a bit and then shut right down for a longer bit, and now she is sore down there and finding sex uncomfortable - particularly after orgasm ( I liken this to when I have had sex and carpet burned my knees but not noticed until after I came) 

I think she may be in menopause!!!!!!!! Not sure what to expect now but I'm sure glad I read your story above before I end up with this kind of discussion dropped on my lap. I just wish I was as conversationally gifted as you are.

I'm pretty damn sure she has been cranky and short to avoid sex at times......


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

That's a lot to digest. Thanks for sharing and for your openness. A lot going on there...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Nope eagleclaw....that's perimenopause. It's like when your body does menopause "practice"--it's starting to wind down but has not quit yet, so you get some hormones...then none...then lower amounts. It's kind of confusing! 

This has been a really has been an interesting thread for me, because I might more closely identify with MEM's wife than MEM (except that I have not been a sexual withholder). Speaking from a lady's point of view, I would think it would be her responsibility to discuss pain during sex, but having been through some menopause, I can remember distinctly thinking: "If I say it out loud, I'm old." Okay I realize that's just a silly way to think (now), but at the time I didn't want to be old and I kept hoping it would go away!  It's a pretty big ego-blow to accept that you're too old to have a child, your sex life is going to change, skin tone is going to get tougher, etc. Thus, I think it's conceivable she *may* have been thinking if she just keeps things like they "used to be" that maybe she'd return to being like she "used to be." 

Also, I read through the exchanges you've been having with her lately, and I think it's conceivable you're going about this from a weird angle that may not be a productive angle. Let me explain. Let's agree to these understandings: Marriage is a partnership, each spouse is responsible for themselves and their own choices, each spouse needs to communicate and be transparent to their partner, and there are expectations that the couple understands and to which *they* agree...such as fidelity, finances are shared, it's a sexual relationship, etc. The reason I state these is that yes there is love in a marriage, but part of true love is meeting your partner's needs and this means there are things that the couple can say "I expect this of you--we agreed to this." 

Okay so you and the Mrs. have an understanding...and let's say the understanding about sex was reached and really "applied" in a healthy way in your 30's or earlier 40's. Along comes menopause, and to a female person this oddly enough feels a lot like being pregnant or on PMS all the time--you are AWARE you are different but it's driven by hormones and thus you're not exactly sure how, not sure if it's going to stay like this or change again, and not sure if you can change it or adjust to it with meds or something! So part of you knows you're being nutty--the other part cries and can't stop. And a part of your brain knows that this means you can no longer have children and you're getting old...OLD, old, not just nicely middle-aged. You're an "old lady" now--but no part of you feels old or wants to be old! 

I think overall I've had a fairly mild menopause, in that I knew things were changing but I don't think I was too bad hormones-wise. My emotional crabbiness wasn't horrid, I don't think. But on a physical level I felt "off my game" and sort of betrayed by my own body because it's shutting down. Part of my head thought, "I don't want to have no more sex! I don't want to get to where I'm not sexy!" and then there was hot--cold--hot--cold. That drove me crazy! That is a little like having a low-grade cold for forever. So just physically it doesn't "feel right." Obviously other things change too like the level of lubrication. I happen to be fairly blessed there, but I've noticed a change, and yet sometimes it would be there, sometimes not...so was it permanent or what? Anyway, see what I mean a little--things are different and sometime they work, sometimes they don't, I never know if they will or not...and thus in a way it's easier to just carry on like it used to be, than to try to keep up with the constant ups and downs and twists and turns. 

You know, I'm not in Mrs. MEM's head, but my guess is that part of what she needs right now is not "keep giving me sex or I'll be unfaithful" (because that's probably the way she hears it) but rather some reassurance that as things change and desires fluctuate and hormones change or not...that the relationship that's been developed is secure. In layman's terms, "Are you going to stop wanting me if I change sexually?" What if I'd like to do stuff and my body doesn't work? What if my body works but that my drive is slower? I don't know where this is going to end up--will it ever plateau and here's the new 'normal' we have to adjust to? If this is what she means when she says "wait and see"...basically you just told her that you don't care if her body changes or works or doesn't work, etc.--you'll hurt her (via infidelity) if can't keep up her end of the deal from when you were 30's (or whatever). 

Thus I'd suggest/request that you ask her if that's what she meant--in other words, was she saying: "...let's stop sex for the foreseeable future and see if I ever feel like it again" or something more like "...I do totally still want to continue connecting physically but things feel and seem different and I don't know where this is going to end up. Can we see what happens and maybe reach some sort of interim agreement that recognizes some of this new stuff to keep what we have secure?" If she meant more like the second one, then threatening her with a GF puts her in the position of not having a rock solid marriage as she goes through this. If I know you at all, MEM, that's not your intention; my guess based on knowing you is to be clear there is no "opt out of my duties to the marriage and expect to keep the marriage" and that's a good point. 

Finally, you mentioned that it's important to you that she can not just decide to not meet 50% of your needs and expect to stay in the marriage. A wife can't decide to just "stop having sex" any more than a man can decide to just "stop providing for the family" (although both men and women try this all the time--and the proof is here on these forums)! But here's an analogy that might make sense to you. This may not be a situation of "stop having sex"/"stop providing for the family". It may be more like if a couple both worked and had FT jobs that earned about the same...and they had agreed to share all money, pay all bills together 50/50, do household chores 50/50...and suddenly one of them loses their job. Your wife's side is "Are you going to leave me while I look for a job, because I can't do 50/50?" and your answer is "You can't just stop 50/50 and expect to be part of this marriage." Kind of like ships that pass in the night, huh? Your answer is true--she can't go months fooling around, not really looking, not contributing, and expect to continue the benefits of the finances. But her question is just as reasonable: if she's showing sincere effort, sending resumes, doing interviews, etc. -- then the security of the marriage isn't in jeopardy even if the 50/50 is temporary "different."


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM, 

I seldom finish longs posts, but I finished yours. So you should know how much I respect you!

As women, when we feel hurt, we just say random things to hurt back. What we say when we fight doesn't mean anything. 

At the beginning of our marriage, I would tell my husband to leave me when we were fighting, why would I say such thing, I was insecure, I felt that I didn't deserve him. Did I want him to leave me? Hell NO! I was just saying stupid things to hurt him. 

My husband told me it hurt him when I say stupid things like this. But he didn't take it seriously because he knew that I was just being silly. 

Now, my husband knows not to pay much attention to my comments when I am angry. Because they are just nonsense. I learned not to say hurtful things because it isn't my intention. 

I will never want this wonderful man to leave my life. 

MEM, if your wife were me, like you mentioned so many times that I resemble your wife. I know what she thinks. 

She doesn't want you to leave, you are such a wonderful man. She feels bat that she can't please you much right now. She really wants to please you. She feels insecure. She is confused. 

MEM, again, please be gentle with her, please get into her head and find out what is really in her mind. Please understand her and support her. PLEASE!

I don't know if menopause can be long term or short term. Maybe it will only be a short term. Many women still want sex after menopause, right? I am going to read more articles.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
That is very kind of you. I have gotten nothing but a constant barrage of kind, loving and yes sexual behavior since yesterday. My W hates to cook. Tonight she insisted on cooking for me. 

I have a guess as to what happened. When Ford first rolled out the Mustang it came fully loaded at $3,500. All the options were built in. People test drove it and liked it but few bought it claiming it was too "pricey". So Lee Iacocca, the guy who is credited with the idea for the car rolled out the base product at $2,500, with optional packages for the add ons - the options costing $1,000. Oddly enough most people then "chose" to buy the car fully loaded for - you guessed it - $3,500. So why is that? Seems like people will freely do something when they have an alternative that they strongly resist when they feel they have no choice. 

Ultimately I gave her a choice. For you traditionalists who say that the "right" choice would have been "babe you don't have to do anything you want - ever - if we never have sex again that is fine." I can simply say that had I done that it would have been a huge breach because:
- I would have been totally lying and
- She would never ever have believed it even if I had convinced myself it was the right thing to say

Which would have left us in the exact same - totally fuvked situation. She would feel angry and resentful that I wouldn't "love her, stay faithful, stay married" unless she had sex with me. And she just didn't feel like it. So this was the classic "no win" scenario. And I believed we could quickly get into a bad place where "anything" I did wrong would be attributed to being "resentful" about sex whether or not it was. With me wanting to "try harder" to avoid doing anything wrong and her rapidly losing respect for me for "trying too hard". No interest in that scenario. 

Instead, I gave her a totally legitimate if exceptionally frightening alternative. And then I shut up and let her decide. Suddenly all the pressure was off. And instead of feeling happy she felt anger, jealousy and fear. Ultimately all of that translated into a realization that I am not here to serve her every whim. This is a partnership not a master/slave relationship. And that has a sex appeal unlike anything else. 

In the interest of total disclosure - I am partially to blame for bringing this plague down upon my house. In the last year I have been too:
- present/available
- accommodating
- conflict avoidant (yes - deep sigh - she is sooo tenacious maybe half the time I assert and the other half I go with the flow - that stops today)

I wanted to try something new - ride Segways. The place is a 90 minute drive away from our house. She kept putting it off. Then she pointed out that in "6 months" we would be at Disney World where they have segways to rent. I was seriously irritated. She is NOT a patient woman. In fact she is comically impatient. She would have responded badly to waiting 6 weeks if it had been her idea. 

I waited until Disney and we had a great time. I teased her relentlessly about the prior year. But while clever it was beta clever. I should have gone myself. THAT kind of independence is part of keeping a marriage healthy. Shame on me. There were a few other situations like that. No big deal individually. In aggregate they caused her to start to question my - to doubt my - resolve. 




Deejo said:


> Wow. Haven't got much else at the moment. Just, wow.
> 
> That whole scenario would have absolutely gone to hell in a handbasket if shoved into the lap of most other men.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
I was lucky. Really I was. She did a combination of things that opened the door for me to scare the heck out of her without acting in bad faith. Yes I made the best out of the situation, but I was lucky the way it was set up. 





eagleclaw said:


> Yup, I'm also wowed. If someone grabbed a grenade, pulled the pin, and handed it to you - I'm pretty sure you could talk the grenade into becoming a birthday candle.
> 
> Your story made me realize something (and thank you so much for all that insight).
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AC,
I have shown my patience and understanding in the past. Had she approached me in a decent manner she would have gotten the reaction you suggest that I use. 

While the method was extreme - she sure seems happy, loving, amorous and extra nice/considerate since we had that conversation. There seems to be no negative emotional "hangover" at all. 




Affaircare said:


> Nope eagleclaw....that's perimenopause. It's like when your body does menopause "practice"--it's starting to wind down but has not quit yet, so you get some hormones...then none...then lower amounts. It's kind of confusing!
> 
> This has been a really has been an interesting thread for me, because I might more closely identify with MEM's wife than MEM (except that I have not been a sexual withholder). Speaking from a lady's point of view, I would think it would be her responsibility to discuss pain during sex, but having been through some menopause, I can remember distinctly thinking: "If I say it out loud, I'm old." Okay I realize that's just a silly way to think (now), but at the time I didn't want to be old and I kept hoping it would go away!  It's a pretty big ego-blow to accept that you're too old to have a child, your sex life is going to change, skin tone is going to get tougher, etc. Thus, I think it's conceivable she *may* have been thinking if she just keeps things like they "used to be" that maybe she'd return to being like she "used to be."
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GP,
Shock therapy seems to have worked well. She is back to being her delightful self. Well not exactly - she is being nicer, kinder more loving than usual. Perhaps there was a nice way to get the same result. I don't think so. 




greenpearl said:


> MEM,
> 
> I seldom finish longs posts, but I finished yours. So you should know how much I respect you!
> 
> ...


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM,

No matter what kind of methods you use, I want you to figure out the best way for you and your wife.  I trust you!!!

I am happy to know that she is feeling better!


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Your wife sounds a lot more like my wife than I had previously thought. Although yours might be a slight bit more reasonable. Mine plays wounded animal a lot more in situations like this, and like a wounded animal is more likely to attempt to mount an offense to "scare" off the immediate threat.

You have mentioned many times that you don't initiate when she is obviously not feeling well or tired. And will even turn her down when she tries to iniitiate during these times. That to me should be the reassurance she needs. The onus is now on her to communicate what is going on and how she is feeling......so you can make informed decisions rather than flying blindly.

That being said, if she is down for the count for awhile - she has plenty of other options aside from penetration to keep you happy..... and this should not be be a burden to her as it should (and it sounds like is to your wife) be enjoyable to take care of her husband.

I rub my wifes feet from time to time. She has high arches and wears high heels at work. I don't like feet, never have. I get nothing out of this arrangement. But I do it for her. And I enjoy doing it for her because she obviously enjoys it. And this takes a whole lot more time and effort than some of the actions our women can do to hold us over and make us feel appreciated.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Greenpearl,
> I agree that women have more "difficult" bodies. On the bright side yours last longer than ours
> 
> "


MEM,

I was too distracted that I didn't think too much about this sentence. 

Please don't think that living longer is a bright side for us women. I feel sad seeing old people living alone. I don't want to live longer than my husband. My heart aches when I think about this. I don't mind if I go first. He is better at living alone himself. Women are more emotional, if they love their husbands, they are very dependent on them emotionally. 

It is still many many many years away. I don't need to waste my energy thinking about this. 

But, MEM, I don't want to live without my husband. I don't know what I am going to do if he is not in my life!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> That is very kind of you. I have gotten nothing but a constant barrage of kind, loving and yes sexual behavior since yesterday. My W hates to cook. Tonight she insisted on cooking for me.
> 
> I have a guess as to what happened. When Ford first rolled out the Mustang it came fully loaded at $3,500. All the options were built in. People test drove it and liked it but few bought it claiming it was too "pricey". So Lee Iacocca, the guy who is credited with the idea for the car rolled out the base product at $2,500, with optional packages for the add ons - the options costing $1,000. Oddly enough most people then "chose" to buy the car fully loaded for - you guessed it - $3,500. So why is that? Seems like people will freely do something when they have an alternative that they strongly resist when they feel they have no choice.
> ...


>>- conflict avoidant (yes - deep sigh - she is sooo tenacious maybe half the time I assert and the other half I go with the flow - that stops today)<<

Ok - now I don't feel so bad about me!

"Conflict Avoidant " MEM

Dare we say, "Nice Guy" MEM?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> MEM,
> 
> I was too distracted that I didn't think too much about this sentence.
> 
> ...


GreenPearl,

Then act on that conviction - every single day.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Conrad said:


> GreenPearl,
> 
> Then act on that conviction - every single day.


Your posts are always difficult for me to understand. 

How come you always speak so deep?

Are you a PH.D.?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

I have far too much common sense to be a PHD.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

greenpearl said:


> Your posts are always difficult for me to understand.
> 
> How come you always speak so deep?
> 
> Are you a PH.D.?


:iagree:

Conrad - I also have trouble understanding you sometimes as your posts are very "efficient." Does your ISP charge you a flat monthly rate, or a charge per keyboard stroke? 

Don't be afraid to use your words.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Conrad - I got you, clear to me!

The problem with common sense though, is that it's not very common!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GP,
This is sort of darkly comical. For many years she and I used to have this debate. Each of us would say "I want to go first, I don't want to be alone after you die". 

One day I looked at my W and pictured her far in the future. She was old, alone and sad. And I said "I love you enough that I will try to outlive you, I don't want you to be old and alone." 



greenpearl said:


> MEM,
> 
> I was too distracted that I didn't think too much about this sentence.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
Exactly. One reason I haven't felt "neglected" in the last 6 months during which time we dropped down to once a week is that any night we are watching tv in bed, if I lay with my head in her lap she automatically pulls up my shirt and gives me a killer back massage/back scratch. I don't even have to say anything. It is just a "thing" we do. 

And yes - I also give her massages - but not even close to what I get. 



eagleclaw said:


> Your wife sounds a lot more like my wife than I had previously thought. Although yours might be a slight bit more reasonable. Mine plays wounded animal a lot more in situations like this, and like a wounded animal is more likely to attempt to mount an offense to "scare" off the immediate threat.
> 
> You have mentioned many times that you don't initiate when she is obviously not feeling well or tired. And will even turn her down when she tries to iniitiate during these times. That to me should be the reassurance she needs. The onus is now on her to communicate what is going on and how she is feeling......so you can make informed decisions rather than flying blindly.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
Guilty as charged. I consider myself a "work in progress." I do have a plan to move the needle in a constructive manner towards more balance. Though, at the moment she is working hard to do that all on her own. I believe it has something to do with an involuntary utterance that I made during our walk. I said something about "our marriage has always worked well with an 80-20,20-80 balance". Meaning it is 80-20 her giving me receiving in the bedroom and 80-20 me giving outside the bedroom. I have always asked to do more in the bedroom and she has always said "shhh - I am a giver - do you not like what I am doing?" WTF do you say to that? 

But apparently the 80-20 outside the bedroom - and yes I was exaggerating a bit - really distressed her. I have tried to explain that is isn't a "laziness" thing. It is more a comfort zone thing. She needs has a much narrower comfort zone in most areas than I do. In the house, 70 degrees she is good, 69 or 71 are ok. Outside that she is either hot or cold. 
I tease her by saying "you have a comfort zone that is literally plus/minus 1 degree". And that applies to movies - most of them are either boring or offensive. Only a few are "just right". That said she always works to find a point of overlap where we BOTH like the solution. And she would never biiitch about it if I told her to see a particular movie with her girlfriend. 

And she wants to be in control WAY MORE than I do. Driving the car, having the remote control, the radio station, final say on anything that effects the appearance of the house, etc. etc. 

So that was more the 80-20 thing. She hates to cook but takes 100% care of the bills almost all the house cleaning. I LIKE doing laundry as I watch TV/football while I fold. We both have jobs - in the last 2 years she has worked at least twice as many hours at her job as I have at mine. 

And a self deprecating sense of humor goes a looonnnng way. She will sometimes say in this contrite, adorable voice "I think sometimes I might be a little difficult." Which is her way of asking me "am I annoyingly high maintenance?" Usually I just laugh and say "not to me". 




Conrad said:


> >>- conflict avoidant (yes - deep sigh - she is sooo tenacious maybe half the time I assert and the other half I go with the flow - that stops today)<<
> 
> Ok - now I don't feel so bad about me!
> 
> ...


----------



## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Mem,

you have an odd relationship with your wife.

It seems the interactions are always on the simplistic level of threat/counterthreat, who has the most leverage, emotional manipulation, etc. 

Try changing things up simply by looking at things from a different angle. This might be difficult for you.

One example that pops right out is your attitude towards the issue of your wife not disclosing her having pain/discomfort during sex over an extended period of time. Your reaction is to point the finger at her for not telling you.

However another way of looking at is to question your own lack of perceptivity. This is the woman you have been married to for how many years, making love to for how many years. Yet you cannot tell that not only is she lacking enjoyment in the sex act, she is actually in physical pain? How oblivious on your part is that, my friend?

Maybe she's sphinx like and no man would be able to discern that she was in pain. Nevertheless you can still look at is as your inability to perceive to the extent necessary when dealing with this particular woman. IOW maybe this is a woman who needs an extraordinarily sensitive man to perceive her feelings/emotions.

You seem to perceive your relationship as a sequential series of skirmishes or battles to be won or lost. You talked about the walk you took, the threat you made to use prostitutes, and your wife caving in to that. A "victory" for Mem? No, not really.

There are some clues here that you are not listening to. She said "I don't think I can do this for another 20/25 years." Do what? This suggests she's never really been "all in" for your marriage. Why not?

The hating to cook thing is very significant and IMO deeply related to her sexual aversion.

True, she may "hate to cook." However--a woman who truly loves her man will want to cook for her man, even if she's not very good at it. Providing sustenance/food is a way of showing love. It's emotionally very similar to wanting to freely and lovingly meet your sexual needs. Food and sex are very closely related. Parts of our basic needs. 

When you say she "hates to cook" what are we really talking about? The significance is that she "hates to cook" _for you_. Who really cares if she hates to cook for strangers? 

Jesus Christmas man you sound like a very intelligent guy, but how could you be so lacking in basic observational skills and sensitivity so as to not realize that having sex with your wife was causing her pain? 

Of course the other side of this is maybe it really wasn't causing her physical discomfort, that's just an excuse she's using because as bad as it is, it's not as bad as telling you she just doesn't want to have sex with you because she's not turned on by you. Normally pain like that is associated with a lack of sufficient lubrication/wetness, again, how could you not know that?

This may not really be about sex at all. The picture I am getting is that you are and have always been in a very "high conflict" marriage but somehow have managed to establish a superficially civilized veneer over a roiling cauldron of emotional turmoil.

Forget about the sex entirely for a while and try to figure out why you and your wife find it necessary to relate to each other in such a thoroughly dysfunctional manner.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

My god, the parallels between my wife and yours, and me and you are unbelievable. My wife also hates to cook (and she's not that good at it) so I do most of it. I am more of a neat freak so keep the house tidy more so than her. But I'm not a deep cleaner (I don't do the tub, the toilet, or vacuum under things for example.) She does pretty much all of that. She also handles the bill payments etc because she works in banking and it's convienant.

I don't really watch football, but enjoy folding laundry while I watch a hockey game (canadian vs american would be the difference there!) Of course, my wife will often refold her own clothes as I don't fold them "right" for her - but she doesn't complain about it. (Which is good or she would find them in a pile on her side of the bed unfolded each day.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

P.S. Tried some of yours and BBW suggestions of texting her naughty messages. Didn't get a reaction from her at all. I eventually asked if she got them. She said yes, just saw them this morning. Nothing more said? I had promised her something special, just for her that evening that she really likes....... she was sleeping by 9:45 when I came to bed so I guess I would categorize that effort as undetermined at this point.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> AC,
> I have shown my patience and understanding in the past. Had she approached me in a decent manner she would have gotten the reaction you suggest that I use.
> 
> While the method was extreme - she sure seems happy, loving, amorous and extra nice/considerate since we had that conversation. There seems to be no negative emotional "hangover" at all.



Mem, you see what you want to see.

If you don't think these kinds of tactics/fights leave an emotional hangover, it's because you don't want to see it.

The truth is that this is not the first time you've had to give your wife the ultimatum of going outside the marriage, is it?

In this thread you're making it seem as if what happened within the past few days is something new.

It's not.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> My god, the parallels between my wife and yours, and me and you are unbelievable. My wife also hates to cook (and she's not that good at it) so I do most of it.



No matter how much of a feminist you or your wife might be, cooking is a "traditional female function." Meal preparation is something that everyone who comes from a healthy family environment associates with giving of love. It is basic. The connection between food and love starts when the newborn baby is at its mother's breast. 

"Hating" to cook is an emotional response on the part of your wife. It is a rejection of and rebellion from the deeper meaning of what cooking really signifies in a relationship, not simply a dislike of the task of cooking, itself. Let's face it: There are so many modern conveniences that cooking can actually be pretty easy. We're not talking about being a gourmet chef--we're talking about pretty basic meal preparation, aren't we? It's not simply that she hates to cook; it's that she doesn't want to prepare meals for you. Why not? How hard is it, really, to put a steak on and microwave a baked potato and toss a salad? Or to boil up a pound of spaghetti and heat up a jar of sauce?

Cooking is not one of my particular interests, but I don't "hate" to do it. My wife does most of it around our house because she likes to and has more of an aptitude for it, so I'm fine with that, but I would never say I "hate" it. 

How did your wife eat before getting married to you? If she "hated" to cook, who cooked for her? 







> I am more of a neat freak so keep the house tidy more so than her. But I'm not a deep cleaner (I don't do the tub, the toilet, or vacuum under things for example.) She does pretty much all of that. She also handles the bill payments etc because she works in banking and it's convienant.


Right, and I'm sure she doesn't "love" to clean out the toilet more than she "hates" to cook. So why is she willing to clean out the toilet but not cook meals for you? What she's really saying is that cooking for you is a more repugnant act to her than is cleaning out a toilet. The question is "Why" does she feel that way?



> I don't really watch football, but enjoy folding laundry while I watch a hockey game (canadian vs american would be the difference there!)


Wow I'd say you're pretty feminized. You do the cooking, you do the laundry. No matter what feminist rantings your wife may have mouthed, most women simply have no respect for a feminized man. 

Change things up. Tell her "Screw this. You do the laundry, you do the cooking." If she won't, let the dirty clothes pile up and just order pizza like when you were a bachelor. 






> Of course, my wife will often refold her own clothes as I don't fold them "right" for her - but she doesn't complain about it. (Which is good or she would find them in a pile on her side of the bed unfolded each day.


Why does the verbalization matter? The refolding is her silent way of disrespecting your show of love which is represented by folding her laundry. 

This scenario is ridiculous. Stop cooking for your wife and stop doing her laundry. She doesn't appreciate either.

The world won't come to an end I assure you.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Your posts are always difficult for me to understand.
> 
> How come you always speak so deep?
> 
> Are you a PH.D.?


It's a man thing GP. I get Conrad every time. Or at least I think I do lol.

I just don't feel the need to clarify whatever Conrad posts. Interesting ain't it.

Bob


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marco,
As a point of reference I would guess we "fight" maybe 4-6 times a year. Maybe once every 12-24 months we have a blowout that escalates to someone questioning the marriage. 

In between that we disagree about stuff regularly but resolve it without anyone getting angry. 

I post way more about conflict than I do about all the fun stuff we do because so many of the men on this board are trying to improve their conflict resolution skills. I doubt anyone is interested in our normal day to day fun stuff. So I don't cover that. Note: If I was a mediocre - not fun - not sensitive - not loving partner - she would leave me. During our marriage I have focused more energy on the "positive/beta/building" skills than on the alpha/conflict skills. But I am convinced that without BOTH, you end up either divorced, emasculated or both. 

I felt AWFUL about not catching on to the "pain" thing. Let me ask you something. What do you do when your W wants/needs/demands that most of the time sex is rough, sometimes very rough? Well if you are me - you do what she wants because you know it makes it more fun for her. But how can you tell the difference between simulated reactions "acting" and real reactions "true pain"? It is much harder to distinguish between reality and fantasy when "stop" ALWAYS means "go" and someone has a "safe" word that they never use.

As for cooking - perhaps it is a cultural thing. My W HATES to cook - full stop. She is a fantastic mom to our 3 kids. When I would travel she would often get takeout, take them out to avoid cooking. She doesn't hate to cook "for me", she hates to cook. No idea why. She just does. 

As for being "ALL IN" I don't know what to say. In between our skirmishes she makes an effort to spend time with me, frequently tells me she loves me/is in love with me, complains when I travel for work, lights up when I come home at the end of the day and is generally delightful. 

I am curious as to how long you have been married Marco. Is it your first marriage? How many kids do you have?




marco100 said:


> Mem,
> 
> you have an odd relationship with your wife.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marco,
I am literally ROTFL. So let me get this straight. My W is about a 9.5 in bed. Based on your advice so far I should:
- Forgo having sex with her because we need to "sort out" our fractious relationship
- Demand she show her love for me by cooking even though I like to cook and she hates it

So we have had a good to incredible sex life for 21 years, she is (with the exception of maybe 10 days a year total) respectful, fun, playful and loving to me. But because I cook/do laundry I have been "feminized"? Huh? 

I would cook/launder any day rather than pay the bills. She would rather clean the bathroom than cook. Does that mean she doesn't love me or that I am a repressed transgenderite - meaning my true desire is to be surgically/hormonally altered into a woman?

IMO any man who would rather have his wife cook for him than sleep with him has vastly better hand to penis coordination than I do. 



marco100 said:


> No matter how much of a feminist you or your wife might be, cooking is a "traditional female function." Meal preparation is something that everyone who comes from a healthy family environment associates with giving of love. It is basic. The connection between food and love starts when the newborn baby is at its mother's breast.
> 
> "Hating" to cook is an emotional response on the part of your wife. It is a rejection of and rebellion from the deeper meaning of what cooking really signifies in a relationship, not simply a dislike of the task of cooking, itself. Let's face it: There are so many modern conveniences that cooking can actually be pretty easy. We're not talking about being a gourmet chef--we're talking about pretty basic meal preparation, aren't we? It's not simply that she hates to cook; it's that she doesn't want to prepare meals for you. Why not? How hard is it, really, to put a steak on and microwave a baked potato and toss a salad? Or to boil up a pound of spaghetti and heat up a jar of sauce?
> 
> ...


----------



## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MEM - 100% agree. My wife doesn't cook when I'm not around, she doesn't cook when I am around, she doesn't cook no matter where I am, she doesn't cook green eggs and ham.

MARCO - I shouldn't say she HATES to cook - but she doesn't get any real enjoyment out of it. She will cook, I generally just PREFER to cook because I like to have a healthy meal, that I will enjoy that didn't come out of a box. That's my choice. And I enjoy cooking. And I AM good at it. (Mine will go for take out quite often as well when I'm not around)

But I get where your coming from based solely on the posts here, but if you had seen all my other posts you would probably get a different take on it. You would know that I am off at 2 in the afternoon so I can get the kids after school. My wife works later off anywhere from 5 to 8. Therefore I naturally get most dinners during the week. She does more of it on a weekend if I let her. I tend to want to enjoy those meals too so sometimes I cook anyways  . The laundry thing.... well we both do it, but if I 'm killing 3 hours in front of a TV watching a game I don't mind folding. It's a fair trade for me to do some of the chores I don't HATE so that I don't have to do other chores I DO hate.

I should note though that when she is not playing nice, or is pushing my buttons - I only do what needs to be done for the kids well being. If she's not a good partner to me, I start focusing only on the kids, then my own interests.

Sexually she has been and can be a 9.5 - but as of late we have been working through some issues. Hopefully we get back there. Right now quality is good, quantity is not. - and it's entirely dependend on me initiating - and I'm getting bored of that so have been less.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

AFEH said:


> It's a man thing GP. I get Conrad every time. Or at least I think I do lol.
> 
> I just don't feel the need to clarify whatever Conrad posts. Interesting ain't it.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

I thought men are supposed to be easy to understand! give me sex, give me food, let me watch my football game!  Easy to understand!

Ha, men try to hint too! I thought this is what women are good at!

Ha ha ha, 

Happy thanksgiving!!!

To all the men I respect on TAM!


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I should also note, that taking advice from MEM has improved my situation almost immediatly, so his methods definately seem to be effective.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marco,
> I am literally ROTFL. So let me get this straight. My W is about a 9.5 in bed.


That's pretty impressive. But, not so good for you if you don't match up well on that point scale though. If you're say only a 4, 5 or 6 she'll probably be dissatisfied. Maybe that's the real problem? 





> Based on your advice so far I should:
> - Forgo having sex with her because we need to "sort out" our fractious relationship


 It's not an either/or choice. Why not shoot for a good sex life in the context of a peaceful, non-fractious relationship? 






> - Demand she show her love for me by cooking even though I like to cook and she hates it


 No, I suggest that you demand that she cook for you _because_ she hates it. Why should the power struggle in your relationship be set solely on terrain which is to her advantage (the sexuality dimension)? Since you are perfectly happy doing the cooking, and could not care less if she doesn't cook, then this is the venue in which the power struggle needs to play out. 






> So we have had a good to incredible sex life for 21 years, she is (with the exception of maybe 10 days a year total) respectful, fun, playful and loving to me. But because I cook/do laundry I have been "feminized"? Huh?


If you really had that good of a sex life then you wouldn't be threatening each other with divorce or the functional equivalent of it every year or two. If your wife was sexually happy/satisfied she would even cook for you once in a while. 

And yes--you've lost the power struggle in the kitchen and in the laundry room and don't seem to want to acknowledge it. 




> I would cook/launder any day rather than pay the bills. She would rather clean the bathroom than cook. Does that mean she doesn't love me or that I am a repressed transgenderite - meaning my true desire is to be surgically/hormonally altered into a woman?


You're the one who saw fit to bring up her hatred of cooking. If you don't think it's meaningful then why even discuss it. 






> IMO any man who would rather have his wife cook for him than sleep with him has vastly better hand to penis coordination than I do.


LOL your wife actually made you choose between cooking for you and f*cking you?


----------



## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

MEM11363,

Thank you for sharing this subject. Much here to digest, and many MANY topics swirling in my head on this interaction between you and your wife.

First, her hiding the pain during sex. Am I correct that you and her already have established a safeword? If so, then like you say, aggresive sex, this would be hard to see her discomfort knowing the mechanisms in place supposed to reveal such things.

Second, the slave comment to her fitness test. Perfection. I will have to ask permission from you to borrow that myself.

Third, my wife is not at menopause, but we have had in the distant past medical issues to have worked through affecting her sexual comfort. This same type of exchange, similar to what you are speaking, but with fewer words, but very similar emotions. 

Understand this was years ago, so these things now I practice with my wife today, they were not fully in place during this time. I was very much, the recovering "nice guy" during this time.

The eventual relationship diagnoses, she was ultimately insecure, feeling if her sexual performance was not up to my/her standards, as a woman she would be letting her man down. She was shouldering a terrible burden, and this manifests by fitness tests, the causing petty arguing to purposely derail sex, and building up resentment between both of us.

The solution, I assumed total resposibility for expressing and taking what I desired from her sexually, sexual initiation, and making it clear the responsibliity was mine and not hers that I was sexually satisfied. 

In short, acting and behaving exactly opposite of the "nice guy", and if/when something I was doing was too painful for her, the safeword would be activated and of course we would stop and change direction if needed. Otherwise, I simply express my desire with abandon, and get what I want, when I want, leaving her without the emotional burden of fretting if I was sexually satisfied in hte marriage or not. 

The unforeseen consequence, at that time, that her seeing me behave like this (dominant), literaly woke up the dormant lustful nympho sexual fire inside her, and our relationship not long after this evolved into what is today, and what I have spoken of on this forum.

MEM11363, again, thank you for sharing this, it is important for the good men on this forum to see these things an be prepared, rather than to be caught unaware themselves.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> MEM - 100% agree. My wife doesn't cook when I'm not around, she doesn't cook when I am around, she doesn't cook no matter where I am, she doesn't cook green eggs and ham.


I fully understand that we each have our skills/preferences which don't always emulate traditional gender roles. Also our life circumstances mandate adaptation and flexibility in the allocation of the family chores.

Nevertheless there is something more than that going on in these situations. Cooking is a basic life skill and more than that, preparation and consumption of food is closely associated with love, developmentally speaking. 

If your wife doesn't cook when you're not around, how does she feed herself? Does she not realize that ordering take out/fast food/restaurants all the time is much more expensive and much less healthy then doing some cooking? 




> MARCO - I shouldn't say she HATES to cook - but she doesn't get any real enjoyment out of it. She will cook, I generally just PREFER to cook because I like to have a healthy meal, that I will enjoy that didn't come out of a box. That's my choice. And I enjoy cooking. And I AM good at it. (Mine will go for take out quite often as well when I'm not around)


I accept that she doesn't get enjoyment out of the mechanical process of food preparation. However does she also derive no pleasure from preparing food for her family--for using that method of behavior to bring pleasure and sustenance to her family? Does she not see any value in establishing that kind of a connection? If not, why not? It's a whole dimension of intimacy that's being totally written off. The reason this is so important is because it's not overtly sexual. Yet it is a legitimate way of expression affection.

Do you also view cooking as a purely mechanical process/function? Don't you derive some emotional joy and satisfaction in preparing food for your family? That's the point I'm driving at. 






> But I get where your coming from based solely on the posts here, but if you had seen all my other posts you would probably get a different take on it. You would know that I am off at 2 in the afternoon so I can get the kids after school. My wife works later off anywhere from 5 to 8.


It seems to me that if someone is going to post about their relationship and feel that it's important to mention that a spouse "hates to cook" then there has to be some reason for including that information. It has an importance even if the poster isn't consciously aware of the importance of that nugget of information. 

If the reason that your wife doesn't cook much if at all is because of work/scheduling issues then OK. But that is NOT the same thing as "hates to cook." 




> Therefore I naturally get most dinners during the week. She does more of it on a weekend if I let her.


OK so she doesn't hate to cook. Obviously however there must have been some conflict over cooking chores at some point or else why state that she hates to cook. If not, then fine, that's one less issue in your relationship you need to worry about.




> I tend to want to enjoy those meals too so sometimes I cook anyways  . The laundry thing.... well we both do it, but if I 'm killing 3 hours in front of a TV watching a game I don't mind folding. It's a fair trade for me to do some of the chores I don't HATE so that I don't have to do other chores I DO hate.


This is kind of alien to me since my wife does 95% of the day to day chores around our place. Not particularly fair to her, but it hasn't been a source of conflict for us. I don't get why there needs to be all this discussion about the division of household chores if that is not a source of conflict in the relationship. If you were fighting over the chores and as a result there was sexual conflict, then I could understand; but it doesn't sound like that's what's happening. 




> I should note though that when she is not playing nice, or is pushing my buttons - I only do what needs to be done for the kids well being. If she's not a good partner to me, I start focusing only on the kids, then my own interests.


OK this may work for you, but I consider this sort of a tit for tat approach to conflict resolution as promoting instability in the relationship. This is my problem with Mem's approach. Yes you may achieve an equilbrium but is it stable, and is it an equilibrium that is at a desirable place? 

It seems to me that if one of the partners is engaging in bad behavior or pushing buttons then emulating that negativity in some fashion, such as by withdrawal of services, is not a stable approach. This is how children often address a conflict situation--I hit you, you hit me back. If you have small children you will realize that this kind of approach often escalates because it is an inherently unstable approach to conflict resolution. I hit you, you hit me back, I hit you back even harder....

I try to teach my children to de-escalate conflict and try to emulate that in my own life although I have a temper so it can be very difficult at times. 

If your spouse is pushing your buttons and you are actually aware of that, then rather than withdrawing services, why not try to address the button pushing more directly? As in: "I feel like you are pushing my buttons to get a response out of me. I don't want to be manipulated in that way--if you need something from me, ask me directly and let's try to achieve a consensus on that issue. If I can't give you what you want, and what you want is at all reasonable, I will try to give you a good explanation of why I can't give that to you, and we can discuss how to solve the issue." 

It seems to me that if you respond in any way to the button pushing, then you are still allowing yourself to be manipulated, even if your response is negative. It's just like when an attention seeking child misbehaves even knowing that s/he might receive punishment. Theoretically what you should be doing in response to your spouse's attempted manipulation is to make no overt change in your behavior at all. (Not always possible, I realize that.) The objective is to recondition/retrain your spouse's dysfunctional behavior patterns so that she begins to understand that button pushing is a waste of time as it has no affect on your behavior. You see when you withdraw services, your spouse understands that you did this in response to her button pushing. Therefore you have "rewarded" her even if on the surface you think you have taken something away from her by withdrawing the services.

You should strive to never take any action or make any response without trying to look at the entire context of what is going on in your relationship and what you want to achieve.

This requires choosing your battles. The big battle is to achieve a successful modification of your spouse's dysfunctional behavior. Since you are basically dancing a duet this inevitably will require you to change your own behavior in some way. If you are a fighter pilot and she is your wingman, your actions must be consistent and coordinated, otherwise you will crash and burn. It does you no good to be the best fighter pilot in the world if you are flying in formation with someone who is misguided. Short of ejection (divorce) you need to figure out a way of firmly guiding your incompetent wingman yet being flexible enough to deviate sufficiently from your intended flight path, dynamically, during the learning process, so as to avoid crashing and burning before you have had a chance to learn how to move successfully in tandem, both on the same course, even if it's not exactly the final course either of you would have chosen had you been flying solo. You also need to be sensitive to the fact that maybe part of the problem is your own uncertain hand on the controls.



> Sexually she has been and can be a 9.5 - but as of late we have been working through some issues.


Gee whiz it seems like everyone's spouse is a sexual 9.5 around here. In today's world, most men would assume that would mean she digs anal, does oral, and swallows. 

It seems to me cooking hubbie an occasional cheeseburger and fries as a demonstration of emotional commitment shouldn't be difficult at all if she's willing to do all that in the sack. 

"Honey I am perfectly happy to swallow your semen by the bucketful at any hour of the day or night but if you want me to make you a sandwich afterwards you can go jump off a bridge." 

That's just weird IMO. 





> Hopefully we get back there. Right now quality is good, quantity is not. - and it's entirely dependend on me initiating - and I'm getting bored of that so have been less.


Eagle, she's a sexual 9.5. Maybe she's not initiating because you're not?


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

marco100 said:


> Mem,
> 
> Jesus Christmas man you sound like a very intelligent guy, but how could you be so lacking in basic observational skills and sensitivity so as to not realize that having sex with your wife was causing her pain?


Pain during sex, between some men and women, they are part of the experience. Understand that not all sunshine and roses in everyone's bedrooms. 

Between my wife and myself, sex is experienced as very primal, very passionate, and pain, it is very much the endorphin rush. 

If there is a medical condition causing discomfort, as opposed to normal sexual aggression, that is exactly the type of scenario for using the "safeword", for protection of physical or emotional boundries.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

BigBadWolf said:


> Pain during sex, between some men and women, they are part of the experience. Understand that not all sunshine and roses in everyone's bedrooms.
> 
> Between my wife and myself, sex is experienced as very primal, very passionate, and pain, it is very much the endorphin rush.
> 
> If there is a medical condition causing discomfort, as opposed to normal sexual aggression, that is exactly the type of scenario for using the "safeword", for protection of physical or emotional boundries.



Actually I thought at first that Mem was talking about some BDSM thing in his marriage, then I reread it, and it seemed to me he was just making some kind of analogy. My take on his situation is that his wife is experiencing physical pain due to menopause, or says she is, for example due to lack of adequate lubrication; not that they are actually engaged in BDSM activities.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marco,
> As a point of reference I would guess we "fight" maybe 4-6 times a year. Maybe once every 12-24 months we have a blowout that escalates to someone questioning the marriage.


That's suggestive of a very high level of overall ongoing conflict in your marriage which is cycling every so often and building up/breaking out in a big way every year or two, but not ever getting satisfactorily resolved.





> In between that we disagree about stuff regularly but resolve it without anyone getting angry.


It sounds like you are both suppressing/repressing issues most of the time, but over a year or two, it builds up and you get to the repetitious and unresolved crisis points. Try expressing anger more frequently but with a lesser intensity rather than letting stuff build up. 





> I post way more about conflict than I do about all the fun stuff we do because so many of the men on this board are trying to improve their conflict resolution skills.


"Conflict resolution" is not always the same thing as "winning the conflict." Right now we are having a conflict in the Koreas. Sending in a few air craft carriers and nuking the heck out of Pyong Yang might "win" the conflict but might not be the most satisfactory way of "resolving" it. 





> I doubt anyone is interested in our normal day to day fun stuff. So I don't cover that.


 IMO that's a blind spot on your part. Most of our time is spent outside of the bedroom. 




> Note: If I was a mediocre - not fun - not sensitive - not loving partner - she would leave me.


 That's an ironic statement Mem since obviously at best (from her perspective) you are mediocre, and most likely (from her perspective anyway) insufficiently loving or sensitive. If you were that good and sensitive and loving you wouldn't find it necessary to threaten to blow up the relationship every year or two; if she perceived you in that way, neither would she. 

Your braggadocio and horn-tooting simply does not align with the facts of your situation, which as you describe your relationship, is more or less constantly on the precipice of catastrophe. 





> During our marriage I have focused more energy on the "positive/beta/building" skills than on the alpha/conflict skills. But I am convinced that without BOTH, you end up either divorced, emasculated or both.


Dude you need to listen to your wife a little better. You're not paying attention. She's told you she doesn't think she can put up with another 20 years of your b.s. How plainer can she make it to you? Sure you may have gotten compliance from her because she's fearful of getting divorced or you getting sex outside the marriage. That lasts only until she's established a viable exit strategy.



> I felt AWFUL about not catching on to the "pain" thing. Let me ask you something. What do you do when your W wants/needs/demands that most of the time sex is rough, sometimes very rough? Well if you are me - you do what she wants because you know it makes it more fun for her. But how can you tell the difference between simulated reactions "acting" and real reactions "true pain"? It is much harder to distinguish between reality and fantasy when "stop" ALWAYS means "go" and someone has a "safe" word that they never use.


Mem I'm really sorry but this whole rant of yours strikes me as clueless. You're her husband, you're telling me that you can't even gauge her reactions by non-verbal behavior sufficiently to avoid hurting her? It's not clear to me whether you're actually into BDSM or just using an analogy here?

Listen, I suspect her telling you AFTER THE FACT that she was supposedly in pain was just b.s. meant to spare your feelings, that the real reason she doesn't want to have sex with you is because she just doesn't want to, you don't turn her on--which is after all what your basic problem is, isn't it? 

In reality if you were causing her unwelcome pain "in the moment" she would have let you know immediately, most likely by kicking you in the nuts or something. I can see if she was all physically tied up and immobilized and you took the BDSM stuff too far, she might not be able to tell you immediately--but that would only happen ONE time, not over and over for six months. 

I cannot believe or take seriously that you have a woman who will let you inflict physical pain on her during sex without making a peep about it yet rebels against cooking dinner for you. That doesn't make any sense. 




> As for cooking - perhaps it is a cultural thing. My W HATES to cook - full stop.


I'm aware of no culture in which women are raised to hate to cook. She doesn't cook for you because it's a way of sending you a message about how she feels about you.





> She is a fantastic mom to our 3 kids. When I would travel she would often get takeout, take them out to avoid cooking. She doesn't hate to cook "for me", she hates to cook. *No idea why*. She just does.


"No idea why." You mean you never bothered to ask her? Why not? Didn't you ever have an argument or discussion about how expensive/unhealthy constantly eating take out is? Not even once? 



> As for being "ALL IN" I don't know what to say. In between our skirmishes she makes an effort to spend time with me, frequently tells me she loves me/is in love with me, complains when I travel for work, lights up when I come home at the end of the day and is generally delightful.


So except for when she is denying sex to you or refusing to cook for you or you are threatening to have sex with other women/prostitutes, or you guys are threatening each other with divorce, everything is just fine? C'mon you're just in total denial about the state of your relationship. The mere fact that you would choose to use the word "skirmishes" means that you're not in a marriage, you're in a war. 

Just because the two of you are able to put on cheerful masks on a day to day basis doesn't change anything. 





> I am curious as to how long you have been married Marco. Is it your first marriage? How many kids do you have?


Never been married, no kids that I know about.

Does that make a difference?


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

marco100 said:


> Nevertheless there is something more than that going on in these situations. Cooking is a basic life skill and more than that, preparation and consumption of food is closely associated with love, developmentally speaking.
> 
> 
> OK this may work for you, but I consider this sort of a tit for tat approach to conflict resolution as promoting instability in the relationship. This is my problem with Mem's approach. Yes you may achieve an equilbrium but is it stable, and is it an equilibrium that is at a desirable place?
> ...


Ok, I'd like to respond to these few paragraphs where I feel the most strongly.

1. That is a very subjective statement. I don't think it's preparation so much as feeding. Women are feeding their babies with love--whether it's breastmilk, formula, mashed carrots (homemade or from a jar? I don't think the baby cares), or ice cream. Similarly, I think feeding can be done with love if it's take-out or a home-cooked casserole that took 5 hours to prepare. I view cooking more as a chore--I happen to LOVE to cook, but I love it because I have fun with it, like to experiment and taste test, like making a mess sometimes, etc. ...Not because I'm pouring my blood, sweat, tears, and love into some bake dish and tracing hearts in the mayo of my boyfriend's sandwich  Hating the chore does not mean that you hate nurturing a family, and some people don't view cooking as nurturing...Some women don't enjoy breastfeeding (it can hurt!), but that doesn't automatically make them a selfish, bad mother. 

2. TOTALLY AGREE 100% Nitpicking and making everything an "exchange" like a business transaction does not engender love or respect. I think though that some little fights or power struggles can add excitement to some peoples' relationships. 

3. "Choosing your battles." You told someone to suddenly pick a fight and stop doing their normal routine of cooking dinner and doing the laundry. Is it really a wise choice to eat pizza like a bachelor and neglect your own kids to prove a point, when it's not even a big source of issue in the first place? Obviously you feel it would accomplish something, but I disagree here. 

4. That seemed like a bitter, hateful comment, but sometimes it is hard to pick up on tone through written text. I'll temporarily ignore the fact that "everyone" involves a sample size of 2. So. Is it really that hard to believe there are women out there like that?! I think there are definitely at least some, and if they don't enjoy everything, they are always ready and excited to try something new. And what's with these arbitrary requirements you've given? Is a woman not a good lover if she finds anal uncomfortable? I think where the true "boost" in rating happens is when a woman IS scared or nervous about something, but gets over it because she wants to please her partner, then learns to enjoy aspects of it.

Overall, I think you do make a bunch of interesting and good points. You seem to have found what works well for your marriage, and it's good that you have a healthy relationship. I think you're a little too harsh on MEM though without knowing his relationship better...You doubt his wife is actually feeling better, but what proof do you have? It seems a bit cruel to try and undermine his confidence when things are clearly going much better as a result of his efforts. **Lame, "it depends" disclaimer** Every relationship really is different so what works for you might not work for everyone.


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

marco100 said:


> Never been married, no kids that I know about.
> 
> Does that make a difference?


It does make a difference, because you just mentioned that you had a wife who did 95% of the chores..........


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

marco100 said:


> That's suggestive of a very high level of overall ongoing conflict in your marriage which is cycling every so often and building up/breaking out in a big way every year or two, but not ever getting satisfactorily resolved.
> >>>>>>>>
> Interesting. I agree that it is not a good thing that someone "questions" the marriage. I also think there is a level of transparency between us that is somewhat frightening and yet highly effective. I would suggest you read the number of posts on here by men who say "everything has been fantastic for 10-15-20 years, but my W just told me she is leaving me and has zero interest in counselling or trying to fix things. I wonder what would have happened had those folks done what we do - which is go to 100% transparency when things are really out of kilter and then work through it quickly as scary as that is.
> 
> ...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Why would it make a difference?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lime,
1. I agree totally. BTW - my W breastfed all 3 of the kids and it did hurt. As I posted she does cook - markedly less than me.
2. Neither of us nitpicks. We are both strong willed. Two strong willed people are going to have power struggles. No getting around it. Make up sex is great. 
3. I just started doing laundry when my work schedule eased and hers spiked. She didn't ask. It just seemed like the right thing to do. Same with cooking more. I have more free time than she does at the moment and for the last 2 years. Why not do more around the house.
4. I dislike anal. She dislikes anal. Everything else -  




lime said:


> Ok, I'd like to respond to these few paragraphs where I feel the most strongly.
> 
> 1. That is a very subjective statement. I don't think it's preparation so much as feeding. Women are feeding their babies with love--whether it's breastmilk, formula, mashed carrots (homemade or from a jar? I don't think the baby cares), or ice cream. Similarly, I think feeding can be done with love if it's take-out or a home-cooked casserole that took 5 hours to prepare. I view cooking more as a chore--I happen to LOVE to cook, but I love it because I have fun with it, like to experiment and taste test, like making a mess sometimes, etc. ...Not because I'm pouring my blood, sweat, tears, and love into some bake dish and tracing hearts in the mayo of my boyfriend's sandwich  Hating the chore does not mean that you hate nurturing a family, and some people don't view cooking as nurturing...Some women don't enjoy breastfeeding (it can hurt!), but that doesn't automatically make them a selfish, bad mother.
> 
> ...


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

marco,

I am not going to take side. 

It is MEM and his wife's struggle. Only they know what kind of relationship they have and what kind of methods they should use to solve their difficulties right now. 

MEM has been showing he is a loving husband in many areas, just for sex, he strongly stands up for his demands. I didn't like the sentence he said, but who am I to tell him what to say and what to do? 

For cooking, a lot of modern women don't enjoy it anymore. A lot of people eat take out and go to restaurants, it is not a good sign for modern society, but this modern society is failing in many areas. A lot of men don't think that they should provide for the family anymore. 

If the husband has more free time and he doesn't mind cooking and doing the laundry, it doesn't mean that they are not manly. It means that they are loving. 

In China, women are taught that cooking is their responsibility, but a lot of men cook too, some men just like to cook. Cooking is like a hobby for them. In my household, I cook because our kitchen is Chinese style, my husband is Canadian, he doesn't know how to use woks and pots to cook. He only knows how to use ovens and slow-cookers. He is a good cook, his mother gave him good comments. He makes desserts, he does the laundry, and he also does the dishes. It doesn't make him less manly. We work about the same amount, so we share our house chores. It's fair. In a happy marriage, when the husband and wife think most of the things are being played fair, then they have less resentment. 

I do notice that some of your posts make a point, and good point. I also notice that you are a very traditional man. 

I am interested to know how old you are, and I am also interested to know your background. 

You said that you have not married, I don't want to say that you have no experience about running a relationship, but you do sound strong! I don't know how many western women can handle strong men. And for a strong man, only he is faithful and responsible, he deserves a loving and sweet wife!


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

lime said:


> Ok, I'd like to respond to these few paragraphs where I feel the most strongly.


OK fire away.




> 1. That is a very subjective statement. I don't think it's preparation so much as feeding. Women are feeding their babies with love--whether it's breastmilk, formula, mashed carrots (homemade or from a jar? I don't think the baby cares), or ice cream. Similarly, I think feeding can be done with love if it's take-out or a home-cooked casserole that took 5 hours to prepare. I view cooking more as a chore--I happen to LOVE to cook, but I love it because I have fun with it, like to experiment and taste test, like making a mess sometimes, etc. ...Not because I'm pouring my blood, sweat, tears, and love into some bake dish and tracing hearts in the mayo of my boyfriend's sandwich  Hating the chore does not mean that you hate nurturing a family, and some people don't view cooking as nurturing...Some women don't enjoy breastfeeding (it can hurt!), but that doesn't automatically make them a selfish, bad mother.


You love to cook even though you dislike it as a chore. That's my point--you recognize the value that cooking has. It's not just about figuring out a way to get food inside of you. It's a social event. In any case Mem hasn't told us the reason his wife hates to cook, since he's never bothered to ask.

Women who love their families cook for their familes, generally speaking. At least some of the time. I do lots of things that I don't get super enjoyment out of per se, but get satisfaction because I'm doing something for a family member. 





> 2. TOTALLY AGREE 100% Nitpicking and making everything an "exchange" like a business transaction does not engender love or respect. I think though that some little fights or power struggles can add excitement to some peoples' relationships.


You need to carefully look back through this thread and try to separate out what is actually happening in Mem's relationship vs. the spin he is trying to put on it, here. This is apparently a very very rigid guy who for some reason MUST impose his particular version of reality upon those with whom he interacts. But facts are facts. He quoted his wife as saying: "I don't know if I can do another 15-20 years of having sex with you" and separately as saying "I can't live with another 21 years of fighting with you." She is speaking to him clear as a bell and he doesn't want to hear what she is saying to him. 

She finally tells him after six months that he's hurting her during sex--something which he is clueless about--and he regards that omission as totally HER "fault" rather than being a function of her fear of him. He doesn't view his cluelessness that she was in pain all this time as any kind of deficiency or lack of sensitivity on his part. And so on and so on and so on.

Look at how mem is reacting to being questioned. He's completely defensive, snide, insulting, dismissive, and sarcastic if someone disagrees or points out discrepancies in his world-view. 





> 3. "Choosing your battles." You told someone to suddenly pick a fight and stop doing their normal routine of cooking dinner and doing the laundry. Is it really a wise choice to eat pizza like a bachelor and neglect your own kids to prove a point, when it's not even a big source of issue in the first place? Obviously you feel it would accomplish something, but I disagree here.


Different post, different poster, different context. I'm not sure exactly which one you're referring to but I'm pretty sure I didn't tell anyone to intentionally pick a fight for no reason, for its own sake. The point is if you're stuck in a rut or dysfunctional behavior pattern, to try to behave in different ways to break out of the pattern. Sometimes that requires risking more conflict, sometimes not. Conflict for its own sake is rather pointless. 





> 4. That seemed like a bitter, hateful comment, but sometimes it is hard to pick up on tone through written text. I'll temporarily ignore the fact that "everyone" involves a sample size of 2. So. Is it really that hard to believe there are women out there like that?! I think there are definitely at least some, and if they don't enjoy everything, they are always ready and excited to try something new. And what's with these arbitrary requirements you've given? Is a woman not a good lover if she finds anal uncomfortable? I think where the true "boost" in rating happens is when a woman IS scared or nervous about something, but gets over it because she wants to please her partner, then learns to enjoy aspects of it.


Sorry you felt it was bitter. Don't you find it odd that the exact same two guys posting in this thread, mem and eagleclaw, who think in parallel about their relationships, who seem to have the same kinds of problems, also both claim to have "9.5" sex-level wives? Do you realize how tone-deaf making such a preposterous claim in the context of a discussion such as this one really is? It's ludicrous really--a wife who can't have sex without being in extreme pain, who doesn't want to have sex with her h in the first place, whether that's due to menopause, disliking her husband, or anything else--how can that be a 9.5? Further, why is it even necessary for both of these guys to "brag" that their wives are 9.5's? I mean it's kind of silly don't you think? Were you at all impressed because some guy on the internet claims his wife--the same wife who doesn't really want to have sex with him--is a 9.5? That's the kind of thing someone is saying to reassure themselves, of what, I'm not clear on. Maybe that if other people believe their spouse is a 9.5, it elevates their social value, or something? 





> Overall, I think you do make a bunch of interesting and good points. You seem to have found what works well for your marriage, and it's good that you have a healthy relationship. I think you're a little too harsh on MEM though without knowing his relationship better...You doubt his wife is actually feeling better, but what proof do you have?


A couple of things. First, her own words as quoted by mem himself. Not the "spin" he's trying to put on whatever did or didn't happen between them, at least not the way he's trying to spin things. Second, mem's seeming total lack of real empathy for his wife. This is a guy who views his wife pretty much solely as a vehicle to satisfy his own needs. I can absolutely see why his wife is so frustrated with him. It's almost like the dude has a mild version of Asperger's syndrome or something. 

If I seem harsh, it may be because having postured himself as some sort of guru for other guys like eagleclaw, Mem could simply be seriously misleading these guys. There has to be a counterweight to guys like Mem. If you don't want to buy into anything I'm saying that's fine, but it's kind of frightening that there's a guy posting here whose wife out and out tells him she doesn't want to have sex with him, she can't stand the fighting anymore, that they talk about divorce every year or two, claiming to have some kind of real understanding of relationships, is alarming to me. 

Mem is not even really being honest about his situation because he's been through this stuff before, he's given his wife the exact same ultimatum about getting sex outside of the marriage before, this is not just something that happened during the past week or the past six months.

You'll also notice that I never made claims about my own relationship as to whether anyone should envy me or not. I don't need to make the totally ludicrous subjective claim that my wife is a 9.5 whatever to internet strangers because I don't need the ego boost. I don't try to claim my life is great or amazing as compared with anyone else's. I have problems, arguments, disputes with my spouse because it's human nature. 

I am a realist. If my wife were to some day told me she was sick of 21 years of marital fighting or that she didn't know if she could stand another 15-20 years with me that would hit me like a brick in the face. I sure as heck wouldn't respond by doing more of the same relationship magic that got me into that situation in the first place. If she told me that I had been causing her pain for six months during sex and I didn't even realize it I sure as heck wouldn't be trying to blame that on her. 

Mem is presenting his situation as "problem solved." In my view we are simply witnessing the "endgame" to a situation that has spanned their entire 21 year marriage, as reflected in his spouse's comments to him. Mem is freaking out about it because he doesn't really know what to do about it. So he posts on the internet about it, pretending he has answers. That's comforting for him. But when someone like me questions him it freaks him out even more. 

Mem thinks his situation with his wife is about sex. Sort of, simply because sex is such an integral part of a marital relationship. But it's really about a lot more than that. Why does she hate to cook? He never asked. Why not? You're married to someone for 21 years and you never ask why they don't like to cook? That's something that's easy to do, right? Just ask? Look, you weren't even asked about it, but you gave a pretty detailed explanation of your views on the subject, right? 

What kind of a person doesn't even, ever, ask their spouse in 21 years about something like why they hate to cook? The same kind of spouse that isn't aware during a six month period that their wife is intense pain during sex. The same kind of spouse who ignores it when their wife tells them they can't stand the sex, they can't stand the fighting. The same kind of spouse who decides to amp things up by threatening to get sex outside of the marriage.

Emotionally speaking this is a person lacking a shred of real empathy, someone who is figuratively speaking fascinated by pulling the wings off of flies, someone with zero emotional intelligence. Mem has figured out some behavioral techniques and conditioning to get some particular desired responses from his wife, but that's all he's figured out. 




> It seems a bit cruel to try and undermine his confidence when things are clearly going much better as a result of his efforts. **Lame, "it depends" disclaimer** Every relationship really is different so what works for you might not work for everyone.


 The only kind of confidence he has is false confidence. What he is doing here is looking for other people to give him affirmation in what he has been doing so as to prop up that confidence. In order to get that affirmation though he has to madly spin his situation. 

His marriage is clearly failing yet rather than simply acknowledge that he insists on portraying it as a success.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

marco100 said:


> The only kind of confidence he has is false confidence. What he is doing here is looking for other people to give him affirmation in what he has been doing so as to prop up that confidence. In order to get that affirmation though he has to madly spin his situation.
> 
> His marriage is clearly failing yet rather than simply acknowledge that he insists on portraying it as a success.


Marco,

These kinds of sentences hurt. 

How can you be so sure about his marriage? 

How much do you know about MEM and his wife?


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

> Interesting. I agree that it is not a good thing that someone "questions" the marriage.


Mem, I never suggested that it's per se bad to question one's marriage. What is bad IMO is constantly being in such a state of conflict that one or the other periodically threatens divorce or to step outside the marriage, over and over, but the underlying issues are never being resolved.





> I also think there is a level of transparency between us that is somewhat frightening and yet highly effective.


IMO your relationship has all the transparency of a bucket of mud. You have zero real _insight_ into your wife's thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. You cannot even tell when she's suffering real pain during sex, and she's afraid to tell you that she is suffering pain, when you fail to notice it. 

Furthermore, when she comes straight out and tells you how she feels--can't stand any more fighting; doesn't want to have sex with you; frightened by/angry at you--you seemingly ignore her. 






> I would suggest you read the number of posts on here by men who say "everything has been fantastic for 10-15-20 years, but my W just told me she is leaving me and has zero interest in counselling or trying to fix things. I wonder what would have happened had those folks done what we do - which is go to 100% transparency when things are really out of kilter and then work through it quickly as scary as that is.


That's the second time you referred to your interaction with your wife about this stuff as "frightening" or "scary." No remotely healthy relationship works through critical issues on the basis of "scary." You seem proud of "scary." You shouldn't be. 



> Perhaps Marco you might want to ask questions instead of making assumptions.


Mem, I think for myself. I ask questions when I want to, I make assumptions as I see fit. This domineering stuff of yours doesn't cut it over the internet. You have no leverage here. I'm not in a relationship with you. No one is scared or frightened of you here. If you have some more information you want to add, by all means, do it. But please don't tell me how I should think or reason. That happens to be something I consider myself pretty good at. 




> For instance a fair question is "what do you mean by questioning the marriage and how long do those periods last?" Answer: They last at most 1-2 days. Followed by a fairly intense period of "WTF was I thinking - I cannot imagine life without you".


Mem, I just got through telling you, an internet discussion is not like your marriage. You don't get to tell me I should ask you questions, _then_ also tell me what questions I have to ask you. Then provide the answer that you believe reflects best upon yourself. 

The questions I did ask you, you refused to answer: Why does your wife hate to cook, and why did you never bother to find out? Why don't you care?

*By the way, speaking of your own self selected question, you just gave a totally misleading answer. Your conflict isn't periodic and just 1-2 days. It is long term, it is intense, according to your wife, your marriage has been "21 years of fighting." According to what you previously posted, it periodically gets so bad you're threatening each other with divorce/abandonment. This distortion or "spin" by you, is why you're not the appropriate person to be selecting the questions to ask yourself. 




> No one is saying "we are done, I don't want to be with you anymore".


No? That's precisely the nature of the threat you made to your wife to induce her to continue to have sex with you--you threatened to go outside the marriage for sex. That's also precisely the nature of the threat/implied threat your wife made when she said: "I can't stand another 15-20 years of sex with you: and "I can't stand another 21 years of fighting."




> But one of us IS typically saying "I am really unhappy right now and I am wondering if this is working". Mostly that is my W.


 So what are you saying? You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth now. Your W can't simultaneously be mostly happy yet mostly unhappy in the marriage. Frankly I can see her point of view. You sound like you are impossible to live with if you don't get your way. I'm thinking she must be some kind of a saint or something, and believe me, I have no particular admiration or any sympathy for women who deny sex to their husbands. 




> So perhaps you are right. Maybe I am a mediocre husband. Or maybe my W is volatile and sometimes goes off the rails for a day. By the way she definitely refers to the last two times as "the times I/meaning she went psycho"


The most likely scenario is that you are both more or less pretty severely emotionally disturbed in some more or less complementary or co-dependent manner. That's the only way I can see that the sort of craziness you describe as your marriage could have been sustained for 21 years. 






> I think she is letting some stuff build up. In this last year I have also been guilty of that. Hmmm - think I already acknowledged that. So if you are agreeing with me - well you are right.


Mem this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. If I'm right, it's not because I happen to have agreed with you--it's because I'm right whether or not I agree with you. You stated that your general day to day level of conflict is supposedly low, but every year or two it builds up to a crisis level. So it's not just the past year or so, this is a pattern that's been going on in your relationship for 21 years, based on what you quote your wife as having said. 







> I post frequently about constructive conflict. About wrestling and boxing - she hits I block. About how we banter in a good natured way all the time. Some of that banter is good natured ribbing about areas one or the other of us could improve. IMO a lot of passion comes out of constructive/playful conflict.


 You truly believe your own marriage is a useful model of "constructive conflict"? 







> It isn't a blind spot. Since you insist I will risk boring everyone else to indulge you:
> 1. I always suggest to the guys that they get in shape. I point out that being "runner skinny" qualifies as in shape but is rarely a turn on for women. The V shape rules.


Seems to me you can have all the Vshape in the world but if you're so inept as to be causing your spouse serious pain during sex, it's really not going to make any difference. 




> 2. I know how to make my W laugh and find the sound of such utterly musical.


 So, I could probably make your wife laugh too, if she has a decent sense of humor. I'm not sure what your point is here.





> 3. I know what topics she finds interesting - politics, psychology, sociology, biology, chemistry and some history. And those she finds totally boring - physics, aerospace, technology in general, higher math.


 These are all purely academic subjects which supports my theory that you have some mild form of Asperger's syndrome. You talked about physique, humor, and academic knowledge, but nothing about deeper emotions. I think you are probably cut off from emotions in some way. 





> Perhaps my W is a pathological liar or a masochist. She tells me that there is no one she prefers to spend time with. And indeed goes out of her way to spend a lot of "optional time" with me.


 By definition a person who tolerates sexual pain can be considered a masochist, and you're obviously involved in some kind of BDSM kink stuff, so maybe she is a masochist. 

But if you believe your relationship is so good, why does it sound so dysfunctional? 





> Neither of us has ever moved out. Nor spent a night elsewhere to "get away" from each other. Neither has ever spoken to a lawyer. Or had an EA or a PA. Apparently I should be more sensitive to her needs and demand she cook, do laundry and in general be more of the typical subservient housefrau despite the fact she is currently working many more hours than I am.


Dude you do whatever you want, except please stop posing as some kind of relationship mentor when you're in such a messed up relationship yourself. 



> If a rough 1-2 days every year or two qualifies as constantly on the precipice then we are "constantly on the precipice". Gosh I sure am relaxed 98 percent of the time so I must either love to live at the edge of divorce or perhaps this is just another giant blind spot I have.



LOL is this how you "win" arguments with your spouse? Getting sarcastic and defensive? Dude your wife told you she didn't know if she could stand another 21 years of fighting with you nor can she stand to have sex with you. If you don't want to take that seriously, then don't. When the brick hits you in the side of the head someday, don't claim you didn't know it was coming. 





> Well if we split our assets down the middle - with what she earns she is fine to leave today. So she is "viable" today. Perhaps you are just wrong.


I never suggested "viable exit strategy" was a reference to finances. What I meant was a viable new relationship for her to enter into; a new man. Do you honestly believe your wife wouldn't JUMP at something like that if it came along? That's ridiculous, you've essentially invited her to cheat on you. You've told her you think it's cool to have sex outside of the marriage if the sex within the marriage is unsatisfactory. That's the green light my friend. Continue playing the @zzhole long enough and I assure you it will come back to bite you on your rear end.




> As for my b.s. - LOL - I think perhaps you need to try a 21 year run.


 Look, if you didn't want us to take what your wife said seriously, why did you bother posting it? She's the one who said she didn't want another 21 years of fighting, not me. Why are you trying to claim that's anything to emulate? 

Like I said, you're in the end game of your marriage right now, and you obviously know that, which is why you are posting frantically about it. It is just a matter of time. She doesn't need your income because she provides most of the income. You said it yourself, finances are not an impediment to a break up. Guilt is not either, since you green-lighted her to get sex outside of the marriage. It's just a matter of her finding the right guy, with the right line of PUA stuff, and you saying the wrong, nasty, abusive thing at the wrong time.

She is completely ripe for the plucking and she is looking for the opportunity. She is filled to the brim with resentment for you (whether you feel it justified or not) and it has been brewing for 21 years. 

The most interesting thing about this is you are walking straight into the tunnel with an oncoming train and you can't even see it. You believe you have the ability to out-argue a freight train from running you down. 

Even though I hate cheaters, if she does end up cheating on you or leaving you, it would be impossible for me to criticize her--because you told her cheating is O.K. You gave her permission. Why shouldn't she? Are you kidding me? That would be her ultimate revenge and your ultimate comeuppance. All your little games and tortures and manipulations would get paid back in full.





> You might find that on occasion your W says mean things she doesn't mean. You know that "temper" you have. She has one to. Do you mean everything you say when angry? If so, I recommend donating your brain to the smithsonian for medical research when you die because if that is true then you are unique.


LOL OK Mr. Nasty. You think your wife didn't mean it when she said she couldn't take another 21 years of fighting? Did YOU not mean it when you said you would get sex outside the marriage if necessary? 




> Hmmm - I am not going to define "rough sex" any more precisely than I already have. Suffice to say that certain role playing makes it much harder to recognize that intercourse has become painful.


Maybe you and your wife need to stop all the "role playing" and start being who you really are. Of course I can fully understand why your wife might want to pretend she's having sex with someone other than yourself. 




> Perhaps you should teach a class on "assumptions" given your fondness for that activity. I will now clarify my earlier statement. I cook more often than she does. Maybe 70-30.


I didn't assume anything. You state she hated to cook and never cooked. Now you're saying it's 70-30 which is a pretty reasonable distro. You see I did ask the right questions, proving that you are not being truthful. Nothing you say is really that reliable which is characteristic of psychologically twisted people who insist on posting on the internet presenting themselves as something other than psychologically twisted.





> Perhaps you should take a survey on this with American women. I flatly disagree with your statement that if a woman doesn't want to cook for you she doesn't love you.


Oh so you're claiming that American women are raised in a culture which teaches them to hate to cook? By the way you phrased this I'm guessing your wife is American but you're not, you're probably some sort of Eurotrash. Since you've now admitted that your wife does cook at a reasonable frequency, 30% of the time, contradicting what you said earlier, the issue of whether or not her failure to cook for you indicates a lack of love is kind of moot, don't you think, since she does cook for you? 







> 1. All "take out" is not alike. We rarely do "fast food". We generally eat healthy. Likely why we are all fit/at really good weights.
> 2. She likely spends way more on take out than the average W. She spends almost nothing on jewelry, makeup, hair, nails, etc. And is into simple clothing. I have tried to buy her nice jewelry - just not her. She likes a casual look.


You still haven't answered the question why she "hates" to cook. Apparently that's because she doesn't hate to cook, you lied about that.






> If I ask her to have sex she either says yes or "can we connect tomorrow night?"
> If I ask her to cook she does.


LOL you talk out of both sides of your mouth, don't you?

Man it's going to hit you like a brick when she walks out on you.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Marco,
> 
> These kinds of sentences hurt.
> 
> ...


Look, when someone like mem posts a thread in which they quote their wife as saying "I don't know if I can take another 21 years of fighting" and "I don't know if I can stand another 15-20 years of sex with you" then I take that as a real and serious indication of the state of their marriage.

If we are not to take that info seriously then why bother posting it in the first place?

For that matter why post that she hates to cook then turn around and say she will cook for him whenever he asks her to? A person who hates to cook won't cook whenever their spouse asks them to.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, this is getting intense.

I would sum up by saying this: I have dated many different kinds of woman, some were very subserviant, some were dominant - some were timid and all had different levels of conflict to deal with.

I would summarize my wife as extreme. She CAN be extremely affectionate (the 9.5 comment and no that does not mean anal.)
She CAN be extremely needy, and she CAN be extremetly volatile and conflicted.

The volatile and conflicted part has been a huge part of her all her life. Her parents now it, her siblings now it, her friends no it, and I certainly know it. Because I have this kind of wife, I have to find new tools to work with it.

For a long time I tried to meet all her needs and forsee what might be coming and head it off, I went over the top trying to solve all her problems and keep her near her happy center. I went to far and created a monster. Things got worse, a lot worse. And I started to see that exact same behavior in my youngest daughter.

At this point, I had to either leave this marriage - or make an earnest effort to do a full stop and try completely different methods to try and reign in her behavior. I know how this sounds.... but her own family find me calm, cool, and collected and thinks I made things a lot better.

MARCO - I think you even mentioned that when things are not working you try different actions to try and get a different outcome. That's what I did. I tried a few different things. 

In the end what has worked the best (although not perfect I admit) is to leave the "nice guy" attitude behind, create boundries I won't accept, create expectations that I expect her to meet (such as cleaning up the kitchen if I have cooked a meal) - and hold her accountable for her own actions. I don't always try and solve her problems, or fix her screw ups anymore. (Sometimes I do when appropriate)

With the kind of woman she is.......... this is the approach I have to take. This would not have been my approach with a different kind of woman.

She also never learnt much about consequences growing up. Another reason why I don't try and solve every problem she creates. And with my boundries she knows there are very real consquences for her actions now. I stop being helpful and going out of my way to help her, when she has a bad day and decides to take it out on me without provocation. You refer to that as tit for tat. I think of it as a consequence for acting badly. And she is learning, that her bad day will indeed get worse when she projects onto me or the kids. She's learning about consequences. And her behavior IS changing slowly.

It took me seeing it being emulated in my kids before I knew I had to tackle this. 

Maybe not with all woman, but with the personality type I am dealing with - some of the tactics of MEM and BBF have helped me immensely. I don't take everything they say as gospal, but I pick and choose what fits in my world and implement it appropriatly. This forum is great kitchen to cook in - it has every ingredient known to man - and you can pick and choose the ingredients you like and make your own soup out of it which is what I am doing.

For example, my wife didn't start until 1pm yesterday - so I asked her to prep dinner so I just had to reheat it when I got home as I was going to plow snow after work. She did so, and it was really nice to have a dinner ready with minimal work. I took that ingredient from your shelf.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

My point for mentioning all that, is I believe MEM's wife is alot like this also. And I think some of the actions we use are unique to the type of women we have.

I know in my life, as much as I love my wife she comes with ALOT of emotional baggage and the kind of work I have to put into this relationship to keep it together is much more that I ever imagined. If she shut down sexually, completely, or stopped putting effort in as I do, I WOULD end up going outside of the marriage or leaving her eventually. She needs to be aware of that. I will do anything for her... my only stipulation is that she feels the same for me.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

We learn from each other. 

We help each other. 

We support each other. 

I even learn a lot from children. When I see children's happy smiles, I know that they don't have any worries in their mind. When I scold them, I know they won't hate me for it. After class, they give me big smiles and call me "teacher teacher"sweetly. 

This world needs more loving people!

Marco, one shot you took on MEM was very harsh. You think that he shouldn't be giving people advice because he is not doing a good job. Who is perfect in this world? At least he has a loving heart to help others. 

Are you trying to help or are you trying to attack? If you are trying to help, then is the way you are taking a nice method? 

I never like people who try to attack. 

I may be harsh to some people, but never want to attack the original poster.

And besides, we really don't know what is going on. 

Do you want more loving people on this planet, or do you think you are the only smart person who can help others?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Marco,

If you don't mind, I'm curious about how old you are.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

My hunch is Marco100 is a MFT or psychology student and figuring out how to pull apart marriages as a class project. I believe he's trolling MEM on this thread.

MEM has been on this board a very long time and his advice to many people has been expectionally helpful and on target. I regard him as one of the people that generally has their relationship together and is contributing to the board out of a real sense of helping others.

The fact that he has been willing to peel the lid off a bit and discuss a rough time that him and his wife have been going through is showing some real vunerablity and was brave of him. I think that needs to be applauded a bit, it's open and honest of him.

I believe the acute problem is the menopause and she has been unnerved by the lack of her ability to respond as she had previously. MEM has a high sex drive and they have had a deep sexual relationship together, so when she loses her sex drive she's going to fear that the loss of that will potentially risk the relationship itself.

Much of what she did was testing the relationship and trying to discover if he would in fact stay or cheat/leave her as a result of of it. It's all just a vanilla **** test in that regard. Just a very big one.

That being said, I would recommend a general medical check up for her. Her symptoms may be able to be managed a little better. Frankly I suspect she has lied to some degree about the "it hurts" thing, it's just a masterfully guilt inducing angle of attack in an argument for a wife to throw at a husband.

Life throws curve balls and you have to adjust. Menopause is a medical syndrome, so start with the medical approach first.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Atholk,

I'm a pharmacist.

Dryness is a symptom that's easily treated.

There are also patches women can wear that provide low estrogen doses "around the clock" that can really take the edge off what she's experiencing.

I think you're spot on with your diagnosis of Marco - as well as this situation.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Life has its ups and downs! 

It is us who have to find out ways to pull us up when we are down. 

When we are high, we shouldn't be too ****y, because we might fall, and when we fall from a high spot, it is going to look bad!!!

No one can say:" HEY, I am great, my life is so smooth................Nothing bad happened........................."

It just doesn't happen.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

My husband had a year long illness, 3 years ago. It was difficult to see him go through that and going in and out of the hospital. We were unable to have sex for most of that year and that was tough for me in that I have the higher drive. 
At no point would it ever have occurred to me to say "sorry you are sick but you aren't meeting my needs and I will find someone else on the side". Had I said that the following would have happened. 1. He would have resented the hell out of me. 2. He would have never forgiven me. 3. I would have been staring down at divorce papers.
You saying that by seeking prostitutes is no danger to your marriage makes me wonder if you have any idea about STD's at all. Condom or no condom, some STD's can be transferred regardless. And you are willing to put your wife's already fragile health in further jeopardy makes me wonder greatly about you. 
Also, she gained 5 pounds in 3 years? And that is alot to you? Most of us gained 5 pounds from the dinner we ate last night.
Not sure, but this post makes me think you lack empathy and it's all about you. Perhaps you are in a bad place when you wrote this but please re-read what you wrote. It doesn't sound like something a loving partner would write, think about, much less tell their spouse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ah - a sane and constructive post from someone with actual real world marriage experience. Thank you Atholk. 





Atholk said:


> My hunch is Marco100 is a MFT or psychology student and figuring out how to pull apart marriages as a class project. I believe he's trolling MEM on this thread.
> 
> MEM has been on this board a very long time and his advice to many people has been expectionally helpful and on target. I regard him as one of the people that generally has their relationship together and is contributing to the board out of a real sense of helping others.
> 
> ...


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

MEM I'm curious how old you are? I.E. what stage of life your in with your wife? I'm guessing early to mid 40's?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And one wonders why AFEH thinks there should be a forum for guys only.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brennan,
It isn't reasonable for me to expect you to have read all my threads. So a quick recap:
- 3 summers ago she had serious pelvic inflammation - I was totally supportive - you can search my posts using pelvic inflammation as a keyword for detail. It lasted 2 months.
- she had a relapse that again lasted about 2 months. same deal. 

This is not about sick/not sick. This is about the hostile and aggressive approach she took to this situation. There is no "good" response to your partner going into uber-warfare mode. I selected a tactic that defined my boundaries. 

Don't lose sight of the fact that she went down two paths here. 

The first was "don't argue with me if you want to stay married." FWIW when we argue I am quite civilized and all my friends at work/social would tell you I am NOT argumentative by nature. Her statement about arguing was a blatant attempt to assert total control over the marriage. Forget sex. That single piece of this puzzle needed to be resolved to MY satisfaction for the marriage to continue. 

As for how she handled the conversation about sex, she is still apologizing. Given how I handled these type situations before I deserved way better.





Brennan said:


> My husband had a year long illness, 3 years ago. It was difficult to see him go through that and going in and out of the hospital. We were unable to have sex for most of that year and that was tough for me in that I have the higher drive.
> At no point would it ever have occurred to me to say "sorry you are sick but you aren't meeting my needs and I will find someone else on the side". Had I said that the following would have happened. 1. He would have resented the hell out of me. 2. He would have never forgiven me. 3. I would have been staring down at divorce papers.
> You saying that by seeking prostitutes is no danger to your marriage makes me wonder if you have any idea about STD's at all. Condom or no condom, some STD's can be transferred regardless. And you are willing to put your wife's already fragile health in further jeopardy makes me wonder greatly about you.
> Also, she gained 5 pounds in 3 years? And that is alot to you? Most of us gained 5 pounds from the dinner we ate last night.
> Not sure, but this post makes me think you lack empathy and it's all about you. Perhaps you are in a bad place when you wrote this but please re-read what you wrote. It doesn't sound like something a loving partner would write, think about, much less tell their spouse.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

EC,
I am 47, she just turned 48. 




eagleclaw said:


> MEM I'm curious how old you are? I.E. what stage of life your in with your wife? I'm guessing early to mid 40's?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Adventures in a strange new land - weight gain*

Brennan,
I was listing generic menopause symptoms. She has gained 10+ pounds it bothers her and it does NOT bother me. 




Brennan said:


> My husband had a year long illness, 3 years ago. It was difficult to see him go through that and going in and out of the hospital. We were unable to have sex for most of that year and that was tough for me in that I have the higher drive.
> At no point would it ever have occurred to me to say "sorry you are sick but you aren't meeting my needs and I will find someone else on the side". Had I said that the following would have happened. 1. He would have resented the hell out of me. 2. He would have never forgiven me. 3. I would have been staring down at divorce papers.
> You saying that by seeking prostitutes is no danger to your marriage makes me wonder if you have any idea about STD's at all. Condom or no condom, some STD's can be transferred regardless. And you are willing to put your wife's already fragile health in further jeopardy makes me wonder greatly about you.
> Also, she gained 5 pounds in 3 years? And that is alot to you? Most of us gained 5 pounds from the dinner we ate last night.
> Not sure, but this post makes me think you lack empathy and it's all about you. Perhaps you are in a bad place when you wrote this but please re-read what you wrote. It doesn't sound like something a loving partner would write, think about, much less tell their spouse.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Conrad said:


> And one wonders why AFEH thinks there should be a forum for guys only.


Funny timing that.

My hunch was that marco is a xx.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Marco,
> 
> If you don't mind, I'm curious about how old you are.


Eisenhower baby.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

> Frankly I suspect she has lied to some degree about the "it hurts" thing, it's just a masterfully guilt inducing angle of attack in an argument for a wife to throw at a husband.


Are you implying that the gamesman is being outgamed?


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Funny timing that.
> 
> My hunch was that marco is a xx.


If your hunch were true, would that give my opinions greater weight, lesser weight, or the same weight?


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan,
> It isn't reasonable for me to expect you to have read all my threads. So a quick recap:
> - 3 summers ago she had serious pelvic inflammation - I was totally supportive - you can search my posts using pelvic inflammation as a keyword for detail. It lasted 2 months.
> - she had a relapse that again lasted about 2 months. same deal.
> ...



Brennan, Mem's reality filter is currently set to "impenetrable."


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marco100 said:


> If your hunch were true, would that give my opinions greater weight, lesser weight, or the same weight?


Let's just say they could already use some ballast.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

> If you are trying to help, then is the way you are taking a nice method?



I sincerely hope not.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Let's just say they could already use some ballast.


You didn't answer the question I asked, which was designed to highlight the complete irrelevancy of my gender (which is not "xx" by the way, since you asked).

You were deliberately evasive. A nice guy tactic.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marco,
If you want to "play" you have to share. If you are an Eisenhower baby you are 46-65 years old. Have you ever been married? If so how long/kids? 

If not, how long is your current LTR?

And if you don't want to share that is fine. Far easier to attack everyone else through the anonymity of a board than to actually manage a relationship with a real woman in a real marriage. 



marco100 said:


> You didn't answer the question I asked, which was designed to highlight the complete irrelevancy of my gender (which is not "xx" by the way, since you asked).
> 
> You were deliberately evasive. A nice guy tactic.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mem, I think it admirable that you shared such a detailed and sincere post about your relationship with your wife.

I read it on my mobile on my way home from Thanksgiving today. I discussed it with my husband on the way home after reading it as we had a loooong drive.

It offends him and I on several levels even if it's not supposed to. I talked to my husband about it specifically because I'm getting the impression that many men here dismiss my views as too feminist. Now at first I saw my husband as a nice guy but after reading so many topics and several conversations I realized he most likely would not be considered a nice guy.

I'm not sure that a fitness test that involves the possibility of paid prostitution as a solution to a marriage problem would ever be viewed by me as anything but toxic. Now, it's your relationship and if it worked for her then I'd think that'd be good for your relationship but she was obviously deeply hurt. 

My husband said that it would never enter his mind because of the deep feelings of commitment and responsibility he feels for me. Even if I were playing games or confused about the changes that happened to me, my husband flat out said he couldn't imagine entertaining the idea. 

He then suggested that maybe you just posted your story to get a reaction and gave me a lecture on not believing everything I read. Now, is he just a nice guy or is he a better man? He's certainly, in the least, a better man for me. I felt grateful for him today in the car.

If I were your wife and in pain and struggling with an inner struggle and you suggested that you pay for sex so that you could still get yours I'd walk so fast and I believe I'd be a better woman for it.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

marco100 said:


> This is kind of alien to me since my wife does 95% of the day to day chores around our place. Not particularly fair to her, but it hasn't been a source of conflict for us.


and...



marco100 said:


> I try to teach my children to de-escalate conflict and try to emulate that in my own life although I have a temper so it can be very difficult at times.


quoted from here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...adventures-strange-new-land-3.html#post213018

and when MEM11631 asked Marco100 if he has ever been married, he says...



marco100 said:


> Never been married, no kids that I know about.
> 
> Does that make a difference?


quoted from here http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...adventures-strange-new-land-4.html#post213028

So congratulations Marco100, you've been caught in a lie. Though credit to Lime for catching it first. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...adventures-strange-new-land-4.html#post213032

A brief review of of Marco100s other posts reveals a fairly systematic approach of instigation towards encouraging ending the relationships of the orginial posters.

He is clearly nothing but a troll.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

I think what MEM has said, and illustrated is that he has no problem understanding her issues, and working with her on them if she fills him in as to what's going on and has an honest need herself to work through this and find other avenues in the interm to still be loving and supportive of her husband. HOWEVER, if at this point she simply doesn't want o be sexual any longer regardless of MEM's needs or wants then at that point, and only at that point he needs to find other solutions because she no longer has his interests anywhere near her heart.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

> So congratulations Marco100, you've been caught in a lie. Though credit to Lime for catching it first. Adventures in a strange new land


I should have stated that response in the conditional but it doesn't matter.

Since you believe catching people in lies is somehow relevant, you've caught mem's wife deliberately lying about feeling pain during intercourse. Or at least you believe you've caught her lying, and with the express intent (according to you) of laying a guilt trip on mem.

So what to you are the implications of that? 

Should mem stay married to a woman who deliberately lies to him about pain suffered during sex, to lay a guilt trip on him?

Who's game is better? mem's or his wife's? Further with this kind of open warfare which is supposed to pass for a "marriage," what is the point of staying married?

Waiting for your response atholk.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

marco100 said:


> Waiting for your response atholk.


Actually you're waiting for a response from the moderators.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Before you read the response below I will point out that the only person in this situation with "full" information is my W. And she has been nothing but contrite, loving and affectionate since this happened. And she is NOT into pretending to make up. She only makes up when she feels the "resolution" was fair to both of us. Well at minimum that it was fair to her. I am sure there were many alternative solutions to this problem. I also know the path I took "woke her up" to the fact that this marriage can either be balanced voluntarily or I will balance it myself. 


I do appreciate your honest feedback. This is a totally true story. How would you respond if your H did to you what she did to me with the same context? To put yourself "in place" - he has had 2 bouts of ED during the prior 3 years, lasting a couple months each. Both times he told you up front it was him not you. Both times you were totally patient and supportive. Then he initiates a weekend of fighting, aggressively tells you to stop arguing with him if you want to stay married and the next day tells you he simply isn't attracted to you anymore. 

I grow weary of being told what "I" did was wrong. So now put yourself in my place - having that done to you - and tell me what YOU would do with that done to you. 





Trenton said:


> Mem, I think it admirable that you shared such a detailed and sincere post about your relationship with your wife.
> 
> I read it on my mobile on my way home from Thanksgiving today. I discussed it with my husband on the way home after reading it as we had a loooong drive.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Atholk said:


> Actually you're waiting for a response from the moderators.


Indeed.

I've always been amazed at the frenetic energy of the stormtroopers as they attempt to conceal and hide the truth from those that can actually use it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I actually sent a PM to Marco expressing that I liked the directness of his posts. Then I saw this lot in this thread.

Marco’s not a troll. He is for real and he is in serious deep down earnest. But he speaks with two tongues and is playing mind games.

Just ignore him and he’ll get bored and go and play his games elsewhere.

Bob


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Before you read the response below I will point out that the only person in this situation with "full" information is my W. And she has been nothing but contrite, loving and affectionate since this happened. And she is NOT into pretending to make up. She only makes up when she feels the "resolution" was fair to both of us. Well at minimum that it was fair to her. I am sure there were many alternative solutions to this problem. I also know the path I took "woke her up" to the fact that this marriage can either be balanced voluntarily or I will balance it myself.
> 
> 
> ...


This is all fair, Mem. I'd be lying if I told you I know what I would do or that there's anyway I can really know what is going on between your wife and you. I do respect your honesty.

In the given situation you proposed I think I would feel that it did have something to do with me and I'd feel a mix of guilt and sadness that the sex life we've always shared is suffering. I do know that I could find intimacy with my husband in other ways and I HOPE (certainly can't know) that we'd find a way through it.

I've said hurtful things on purpose to my husband before to get a reaction so I understand sometimes things are said more out of frustration and desperation than truth but in this case you're talking about a truth. You would want to pay for sex as a solution, correct?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marco,
Perhaps your profession involves working with very young children. The type of misdirection you attempted below works quite well with the 3 year old to 6 year old crowd. With grownups - not so well. 

If I were profiling you I would guess: 
- Very traditional marriage/common law arrangement
- W does way more housework because she is a "woman"
- Your sex life is very weak but you have rationalized that it is ok by amplifying the weight you place on cooking/laundry and other housework your W does for you
- Average or below average family income (the very indignant comments about how expensive take out is were a dead giveaway)

Somehow life hasn't quite turned out the way it "should have" for you. That giant chip on your shoulder creates skews your posts in a fairly predictable manner. 




marco100 said:


> I should have stated that response in the conditional but it doesn't matter.
> 
> Since you believe catching people in lies is somehow relevant, you've caught mem's wife deliberately lying about feeling pain during intercourse. Or at least you believe you've caught her lying, and with the express intent (according to you) of laying a guilt trip on mem.
> 
> ...


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marco,
> If you want to "play" you have to share. If you are an Eisenhower baby you are 46-65 years old. Have you ever been married? If so how long/kids?
> 
> If not, how long is your current LTR?
> ...


Well nice try mem, but at this point, trying to make me "the issue" is not going to help you out.

You now have received, in addition to my various posts, two VERY thoughtful well written and concise responses from two female posters, brennan and trenton. Trenton has also included her husband's viewpoint and I see no reason to doubt Trenton on what her husband's view was, because it basically mirrors mine, Brennan's, and Trenton's.

So, now, take me and my possibly inept way of expressing myself completely out of the equation, please? 

Admittedly atholk seems to sort of have run somewhat amuck in trying to challenge my credibility, as if who I am is what matters rather than "Is what he is saying about this situation a valid point of view?" Like I said, you can pretty much disregard me personally because I am just stating an opinion based on what you have posted, formulated in the very wee hours of the a.m.; and it is not some sort of far fetched brew that only I could have come up with, for some ulterior motive. 

I did try to follow your suggestion of doing a search on pelvic inflammation but for some reason it only goes back to about June 2009. Maybe I'm not using the search function correctly.

There were 14 of your posts that came up with "pelvic inflammation" in them. I found this one--your response to someone else's thread-- which I think is from February 2010, to be interesting:




> *Re: Is life without sex possible? *
> 
> It is not about sex - it is about love. So ask yourself this instead: Am I willing to stay married to someone who does not love me in the truest sense of the word.
> 
> ...


First, there is an issue of parenting or strife with a child that you don't elaborate on at all but which could be having a huge impact on your emotional and sexual relationship with your spouse. If your wife feels that your daughter got into serious trouble in part because you weren't around to keep an eye on things, this could be coming out negatively on the emotional and sexual fronts of your marriage. This is not stuff that you can deal with effectively as a series of unrelated pieces.

Second, you being away for two weeks; combined with the "pelvic inflammation" turning up; combined with your w's zero interest in sex; combined with all the projected hostility on her part; is _entirely_ consistent with your wife's having already getting physically and emotionally involved with an OM. The inflammation could be the result of some kind of STD or some kind of sexual activity during your absence. 

Remember, for all intents and purposes, you gave your wife the green light to cheat when you threatened to go to a prostitute or otherwise step outside the marriage for your sexual needs as a response to the marital conflict. Sauch for the gander is sauce for the goose.

And you don't need to "take my word for it" at this point. You have Trenton's response which was concise and reasonable. Even if you don't want to hear me, you need to listen to her. She's a married woman so why wouldn't she have a good sense of what a married woman's attitude would be? She states that she would feel like walking right out on you. Of course just walking out lickety split is not generally what a lot of women actually do when they feel they have been scorned. 

Brennan is another woman and expressed similar although not identical sentiments to Trenton's. 

You also atholk's opinion, and atholk is someone who fully supports you, and has been bashing the cr*p out of me on this thread, so there's no reason to question his opinion, is there? Atholk feels your wife has been deliberately lying to you about the recent pain as a manipulation tactic. 

Your wife has clearly had sufficient motive, opportunity, and ability to cheat on you. You've said that she's an extremely sexual woman, a 9.5, she's not naturally "frigid." Atholk believes she's been deliberately lying to you to dissuade you from having sex with her. She's come right out and told you she doesn't think she can take another 21 years of fighting or another 15-20 years of sex with you.

I will try to look at some more of your past posts on this topic but there is very little doubt now in my mind that your wife has already cheated on you.

Sorry buddy.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

I would consider MEM11363 a friend on this board. He very well knows that if I thought his wife was cheating on him I would tell him that.

Marco100 - Exposing your delibrate lies isn't a personal attack. It's called damning evidence.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Atholk said:


> Actually you're waiting for a response from the moderators.



Look if you don't feel confident enough in your opinions about mem's situation to back them up, then you shouldn't have posted them in the first place.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marco100 said:


> Look if you don't feel confident enough in your opinions about mem's situation to back them up, then you shouldn't have posted them in the first place.


Maybe he simply understands what you're about - and has your number.

Why mud wrestle with someone when it's pointless?


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Atholk said:


> I would consider MEM11363 a friend on this board.


Right. You're biased. You have a psychological/emotional investment in your friendship. I don't, which permits me to be objective.




> He very well knows that if I thought his wife was cheating on him I would tell him that.


 That assumes your objectivity remains unclouded by your friendship bias. Also, you plainly stated in a prior post that you believe his wife was deliberately lying to him about her pain as a manipulation tactic. 





> Marco100 - Exposing your delibrate lies isn't a personal attack. It's called damning evidence.


Dude, run along back to your own website if you want to play "mod." You're not the grand inquisitor here. And you are personally attacking me, because you want to protect your friend. I told no lies at all about mem or his situation. I posted something inconsistent about my marital status because frankly only an idiot would divulge personal information on a public internet forum. And my marital status doesn't really matter. As I stated, I had meant to write that answer in the condition but it was very early in the morning. The point being that it should not matter whether or not I am married, all that should matter is whether my opinions are plausibly derived POVs from the information provided.

Since Trenton and Brennan had similar reactions to mine on the merits of mem's story, as did Trenton's husband, whether or not I'm married is a complete irrelevancy. Which you obviously are well aware of since you're an intelligent guy.

What you've done is grasped a very slender straw to try to get me kicked off the boards, simply because you have a financial interest in your own blog, mem and yourself are mutual friends/supporters, and any questioning of the attitudes and positions as expressed by folks like yourself and mem represent a very real ego threat to yourself, and quite possibly, are perceived by yourself as a financial threat.

IOW you are completely biased along a number of dimensions.

I am not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>Dude, run along back to your own website if you want to play "mod." You're not the grand inquisitor here<<

Damn - lucky I had my irony supplements today!


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Maybe he simply understands what you're about - and has your number.
> 
> Why mud wrestle with someone when it's pointless?


Atholk is completely biased due to his admitted friendship with mem and the fact that he runs his own website espousing some pretty useful views, but which IMO mem's attitude represents a crazy distortion of.

In contrast, I have no friendship or relationship with mem, I have no financial interest at all in any of the concepts being expressed in this thread.

The proof is in the pudding however. Who went running off to tattle to the mods? It wasn't me, was it? 

You're not ever going to make very much progress towards establishing the notion of "men's rights" by talking up a big game but running scared when legitimately challenged.

Some of the reactions on this thread by some of the "men's men" here were downright ludicrous. Such as whoever accused me of having "xx" chromosomes.

So what? I'm not a woman, but what kind of scared, immature little boy would think it makes a difference if I am?

The bottom line here is that mem's thread is really about how he can effectively deal with his wife. The two women who responded to the substantive issues, Brennan and Trenton, essentially agreed with my viewpoint, even if not with the way it was expressed.

I guess since this is the "Men's Forum" then Brennan and Trenton's opinion's don't count?

It's no wonder why some men have trouble understanding how women think and feel.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> >>Dude, run along back to your own website if you want to play "mod." You're not the grand inquisitor here<<
> 
> Damn - lucky I had my irony supplements today!


Snark all you want to, Conrad.

I'm not the guy claiming to be a "man's man", a master of "game," who needs to go running off tattling because I can't hold my own in a vigorous debate.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Thank you for a balanced response. I have never told my W that a lack of "intercourse" is unacceptable. I have told her that a lack of sexual "effort" is unacceptable. As we age how that effort translates into activity already HAS changed and will continue to. 

If my W no longer loves me enough to make the effort to sexually please me, then she has no basis for angrily demanding fidelity. So yes - pay for sex - which avoids the potential for falling in love and ME divorcing HER seems like the safest solution. And yes if she makes the choice to:
- stop exerting herself sexually because she doesn't feel like it AND
- divorce me for going to a massage parlor

Well then I guess we end up being friends and both try to find new partners. This whole conversation has been quite fascinating to me. I have yet to hear a single female say "the non-medical denial of sex in a relationship is simply not acceptable. And if you do that you cannot expect either continued marriage or continued fidelity". 

The good news is my marriage isn't a democracy. It is a participative dictatorship of two - where each dictator has total control of their own actions. 

I am certain what would happen if I arbitrarily told my W that I was no longer going to put effort into meeting her top need/needs because I simply didn't feel like it. She would ask for MC and failing that - become increasingly aggressive. Within a year she would file. One of the many reasons I love her. Why SHOULD she stay with me if I am going to be a totally selfish prick and starve her of her love languages. 

The pay for sex thing would give her some time to decide what is important to her. It is a much kinder thing than a divorce. And while harsher than a secret affair in some ways, it removes the affair/fall in love end the marriage scenario. Besides an affair means lying and that is just not me. That is REALLY mean. Your partner suspects and feels awful. They accuse you deny. They question their sanity. I could NOT do that to anyone much less someone I love. 

There seems to be this underlying - unspoken notion that I am her sexual property to do with as she pleases. Including to ignore me open ended. Hmmm. Maybe if I was a whiny little beta biiitch that might fly. Lets all be real here. 





Trenton said:


> This is all fair, Mem. I'd be lying if I told you I know what I would do or that there's anyway I can really know what is going on between your wife and you. I do respect your honesty.
> 
> In the given situation you proposed I think I would feel that it did have something to do with me and I'd feel a mix of guilt and sadness that the sex life we've always shared is suffering. I do know that I could find intimacy with my husband in other ways and I HOPE (certainly can't know) that we'd find a way through it.
> 
> I've said hurtful things on purpose to my husband before to get a reaction so I understand sometimes things are said more out of frustration and desperation than truth but in this case you're talking about a truth. You would want to pay for sex as a solution, correct?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marco100 said:


> Snark all you want to, Conrad.
> 
> I'm not the guy claiming to be a "man's man", a master of "game," who needs to go running off tattling because I can't hold my own in a vigorous debate.


And in this statement, you reveal much more about yourself than you cared to.

No need to answer the questions.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Marco,
> Perhaps your profession involves working with very young children. The type of misdirection you attempted below works quite well with the 3 year old to 6 year old crowd. With grownups - not so well.


I don't work with children. And I can't see anything that I've posted that relies on "misdirection." I think I've been pretty direct, don't you?

But, if you believe what you said, that such tactics only work on small children, then why do you think your actual misdirection/"game" tactics as you have described them here, are working on your wife? 

The actual real live women who have responded to your post directly have made it clear that your tactics as actually described by you would completely fail. 




> If I were profiling you I would guess:
> - Very traditional marriage/common law arrangement


Mem, you keep trying to use the same ineffective argument tactics here that you probably use with your wife. The issue isn't me or my marriage (assuming I am married, that is). My marriage, if any, doesn't matter.

What you need to be very concerned about is not anything I have said, but rather, what Trenton and Brennan have told you. They are women. 





> - W does way more housework because she is a "woman"


Whatever the division of household chores are in my marriage, if I have one, is totally irrelevant to whether or not your wife wants to have sex with you, mem.




> - Your sex life is very weak but you have rationalized that it is ok by amplifying the weight you place on cooking/laundry and other housework your W does for you


Actually I think you've got things inverted here. It sounds to me as if you believe your wife owes you sex because you do the chores/cooking etc.

But again my sex life, if I have one, is completely irrelevant to this discussion. You're just making ad hominem attacks. I suggest you ask your wife to take an STD test to determine the real source of her repeated pelvic inflammations. You might also want to hire a private investigator to follow her around the next time you are out of town on business. 





> - Average or below average family income (the very indignant comments about how expensive take out is were a dead giveaway)


 Assume that I am the poorest man on the planet, or the cheapest, if you like. How did that poverty or cheapness cause your wife to have incur a pelvic inflammation when you were away on business for two weeks? 






> Somehow life hasn't quite turned out the way it "should have" for you. That giant chip on your shoulder creates skews your posts in a fairly predictable manner.


 Mem, you need to stop worrying about the chip on my shoulder and start being a little more concerned about the gleam in your wife's eye.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Actually Marco, this isn't the men's forum.

I see it as a forum where what actually "works" isn't papered over or watered down.

You can dispense all the "reason" and logic and psychological pap you wish. You can claim the high moral ground and get women to agree with your "reasoned" views.

Yet, when people have had enough of your methods and are the recipients of the "I love you but I'm not in love with you speech", there is a place - and a methodology to which they can turn that gives a glimmer of hope of restoring what should have been present in the relationship all along.

You certainly have political correctness on your side. You certainly have nearly half a century of bad social policy on your side. You have the media on your side. You have the hosts of the "View" on your side.

But, what you don't have on your side is the emotions of women who actually want "men" in their lives.

And no amount of bluster or bravado or arguing down will put you right with that.

Plenty of women will agree with the "logic" of your posts and they may actually - for a minute - think you're right. That is - until they get home and some pathetic "nice guy" tries to get them into bed by doting on them and avoiding conflict.

That's where the rubber - literally - hits the road.

And, frankly, so should you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marco,
I am confused. Apparently you think it is crazy for people to share personal info in a public forum. Is that because your personal info is embarrassing? Not getting the results you want? Afraid if you admit to the reality of "your" situation it will limit your credibility/effectiveness as a "know it all"? 


This is delightful. You have so far called me:
- a liar
- Eurotrash (what is that by the way?)
- a cuckold
- and lots of other things

But you are whining because several folks have pointed out that you are lying about your own experience. 

As for Atholk - his stuff is gold. We don't respect each other because we are friends. We are friends because we respect each other. I believe he consistently gives his honest opinion - though he doesn't have your childish desire to needle everyone. 






marco100 said:


> Snark all you want to, Conrad.
> 
> I'm not the guy claiming to be a "man's man", a master of "game," who needs to go running off tattling because I can't hold my own in a vigorous debate.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And in this statement, you reveal much more about yourself than you cared to.
> 
> No need to answer the questions.


Wow. What did I "reveal" that is so obvious you can't even state what it is?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Every response feeds him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Conrad,
The funny part of this is that Marco acknowledges his wife/non-wife - well whatever she is/isn't does 95% of the housework. So it is a non-issue for them. Uh yeah - it is always a non-issue for the person who is doing way less than their fair share of anything. 




Conrad said:


> Actually Marco, this isn't the men's forum.
> 
> I see it as a forum where what actually "works" isn't papered over or watered down.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

marco100 said:


> I posted something inconsistent about my marital status because frankly only an idiot would divulge personal information on a public internet forum.


By saying this, you are insulting every single man & woman who comes here & posts openly & honestly = We are all idiots. 

You attacked me on another thread mistakingly assuming I was being "Sarcastic" and lying. When I was infact even agreeing with your wise words! Amazingly , note this, Marco apologized. I can only imagine what a rarity that is . 

I find you terribly intelligent . Even wise. But very very very brash and assuming. 

*What I want to know is ..If we are all idiots in your eyes, why do YOU want to stay, play and haggle with us ? * Wouldn't your intelligent purporses be served better elsewhere?

I give MEM alot of credit for coming here and sharing honestly with us, saying things that even make him sound BAD. This takes courage!! I do not feel those who come here and share their stories & struggles are idiots at all. 


I have agreed with some of your wisdom even on this thread. And half the time my mouth is hanging open that you said such hard things. I personally have some issues with the whole Male Dominance thing myself, I am kind of enjoying this dialog more than I care to admit. I have even tried taking on the Big Bad Wolf with some of MY personal problems with these things. I kind of like that some of these Men's men have a challenging poster to deal this. This is a compliment to YOU. 

I like some of what you say, but you are very very Brash, hard, and assuming much too quickly. 

I personally don't want to see you kicked off of here, so please, tell us a little about yourself. If you are not willing to do this, why stay ? Since we are only idiots anyway.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Thank you for a balanced response. I have never told my W that a lack of "intercourse" is unacceptable. I have told her that a lack of sexual "effort" is unacceptable. As we age how that effort translates into activity already HAS changed and will continue to.
> 
> If my W no longer loves me enough to make the effort to sexually please me, then she has no basis for angrily demanding fidelity. So yes - pay for sex - which avoids the potential for falling in love and ME divorcing HER seems like the safest solution. And yes if she makes the choice to:
> ...


OK, I understand. I'll ignore the beta biiitch reference because I don't understand it...lol.

How about this, I agree with you to the extent that if your wife's behavior is not truly medical then you have an argument. Certainly the sexual health of a relationship is vital for the success of any relationship. You are not her sexual property to do with as she pleases.

However, if one person in the relationship is going through a difficult physical time then it's difficult on both parties but not a reason to be unfaithful in my opinion or a time to feel threatened. I would think it's a time where she needs you most and where she needs to feel secure in the relationship more than ever. How is she to want to feel like she wants to please you when you're making her feel sad and insecure when she's already facing a difficult time in her life. She is not your emotional property to do with as you please either.

Now, in the thread marco quoted you on you wrote about lust ebbing off in a long marriage and went on to say that even with working out, our bodies will change. This really surprised me too. I still feel sincere lust for my husband and he for I...of course we're only at 14 years of marriage. His body has changed, my body has changed but there are times I still get chills when I think about what we did the night before or even if I think about him kissing me. Those butterflies are still a part of our lives. I really, really hope they are 14 years from now as well. I just wanted to address this too because for us sex is physically pleasurable but it's also this amazing thing that makes my heart go pitter patter.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Originally Posted by marco100 
I posted something inconsistent about my marital status because frankly only an idiot would divulge personal information on a public internet forum.

You're telling him to listen to my advice but aren't I one of the idiots who post personal information on a public internet forum as well?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Originally Posted by marco100
> I posted something inconsistent about my marital status because frankly only an idiot would divulge personal information on a public internet forum.
> 
> You're telling him to listen to my advice but aren't I one of the idiots who post personal information on a public internet forum as well?


No way are you an idiot!

You agreed with Marco.

That makes you one of the smart people.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Plenty of women will agree with the "logic" of your posts and they may actually - for a minute - think you're right. That is - until they get home and some pathetic "nice guy" tries to get them into bed by doting on them and avoiding conflict.


I just want to say NOT all women feel like this. I Loooovvveeeeee the DOTING, always have , always will and I am highly attracted to my husband. I do wish he had more conflict, but I bring that to the table.  This is one point that would NEVER work with me in my marraige, my husband starts acting like that, all distant thinking this is going to built sexual attraction, I am afraid he would be sorely wrong. That would backfire with ME . 

NOt all women are the same.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

I would encourage everyone to focus on the important topics in this thread.

Trolling or not, these attacks are a distraction.

MEM11363 has shared a personal scenario he is going through. 

Whether anyone agrees or not with how he handled the situation, personal attacks, they are unwelcome.

Marco100 has been dishonest in this very thread concerning himself, that is damning to his credibility.

The concern not to reveal information on a public forum, to use this as an excuse for being caught in a lie, is beyond pathetic.

Myself, I take great measures to protect my anonymity on this forum, yet I manage to respond in threads without contradicting something so simple as my own marital status or whether I have children or not. 

Whether credibility is important to anyone else or not, I could not care less. It is important to me.

The many good men reading this forum, who are hurting and looking for resolution, they deserve better than the ridiculous posturing evident here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just want to say NOT all women feel like this. I Loooovvveeeeee the DOTING, always have , always will and I am highly attracted to my husband. I do wish he had more conflict, but I bring that to the table.  This is one point that would NEVER work with me in my marraige, my husband starts acting like that, all distant thinking this is going to built sexual attraction, I am afraid he would be sorely wrong. That would backfire with ME .
> 
> NOt all women are the same.


SA,

I think we're talking past each other a bit.

If you read closely here, you'll see many folks (eg: rd2010) and others that admit the doting and the "nice guy" thing is about getting laid.

In other words, it's disingenuous.

Perhaps "Mr. Amorous" sincerity makes the difference here, as he is NOT secretly resenting the conflict avoidance he's engineering for the sole purpose of getting into your panties.

We have women here - that Marco is quoting - who have been handing "No More Mr. Nice Guy" TO THEIR SPOUSES.

Are you really saying that they are in his corner?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> No way are you an idiot!
> 
> You agreed with Marco.
> 
> That makes you one of the smart people.


Now now lol.


----------



## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Actually Marco, this isn't the men's forum.


Well what do you know. It's not. So that means the opinions of the females are every bit as valuable/valid as the opinions of the males. 





> I see it as a forum where what actually "works" isn't papered over or watered down.


OK what actually "works"? Atholk, presumably an expert on this kind of stuff, has determined that mem's wife has been deliberately lying to him about having pain during sex as a manipulation tactic. 

If my wife (assuming I have one) was lying to me about physical pain as a deliberate manipulation tactic, I could not in good conscience then decide that whatever I had been doing in the relationship was actually something that "works." 




> You can dispense all the "reason" and logic and psychological pap you wish. You can claim the high moral ground and get women to agree with your "reasoned" views.


I didn't "get" any women to agree with my views (it's up to each person to determine whether or not my views are "reasoned" sufficiently).

I was simply pointing out that Trenton and Brennan, and also Trenton's husband by the way, arrived at conclusions that in many ways were similar in substance to my own. If they did, it could not have possibly been because of my ability to persuade, because I seem to lack that ability. It has to be that they decided what they believe based on their own independent view of what mem described is going on in his relationship. 

I certainly did not claim the moral high ground. I haven't talked about morality or ethics at all. 






> Yet, when people have had enough of your methods and are the recipients of the "I love you but I'm not in love with you speech", there is a place - and a methodology to which they can turn that gives a glimmer of hope of restoring what should have been present in the relationship all along.


Conrad, this is "whack." ILYBINILWY is an indication that the person who says that phrase is a cheater. How is this my "methods"? I never told mem he should stay married to his wife. If she's cheating--which at this point I think is pretty obvious she already has, or is certainly thinking about--then it's fine with me, he should go ahead and divorce her. 

What I think is completely stupid is threatening a woman to whom you want to stay married, that you think you have the right to seek sex outside of the marriage. Which is what mem did. He's clarified that his marriage is not a democracy, it's a pair of unilateral dictatorships, in which each person can do whatever they want to. Mem explicitly green lighted his wife to cheat on him. He gave her permission. You heard the reaction of two women who posted on this thread. Ignore that at your peril. 

Yes we are arguing about this in virtual reality world but presumably mem is actually a flesh and blood individual in the real world. Where exactly do you think women in strained marriages get pelvic inflammations from? Do you think it's purely idiopathic? One of the very common causes of GUT/pelvic infections is sexual activity. It doesn't have to be a full blown STF, it might just be a UTI. 

Also, mem's wife is clearly lying to him, and that's not according to me, that's according to atholk--the expert. 

Mem's wife has already 86'ed this relationship. Mem overplayed his hand. He's listening only to people like you and atholk and some others who just tell him what he wants to hear. He's completely filtering out that which he does not want to hear. Not just me, but brennan, trenton, trenton's husband. And probably a lot of other people if they cared enough to read and honestly respond to his situation. 

There are other issues simmering in mem's marriage (or what is left of it) that he just completely glosses over. Like the reference in his other post about his daughter getting in really bad trouble (unexplained by mem) while he was away on business. How hard do you think it would be for his wife, already fully resentful of him due to the sexual issues, to use the daughter's trouble as another reason to blame him? Yet mem doesn't even talk about this in any detail.

If you know how women think then you would know they can be very focused on and protective of their offspring. If a woman's child comes to harm and she feels it is the man's fault for not preventing that (even if that expectation was actually unrealistic and it wasn't really the man's fault), then the amount of hatred and scorn directed at the man is going to generally be tremendous. You can hurt a woman and get away with it. Hurt her child, allow her child to come to harm, and even death isn't good enough for you. 

This isn't stuff I am making up or pulling out of my hat. This is stuff that people with minimal experience in actual reality (not PUA-wannabe's on the internet) know intuitively and by experience.






> You certainly have political correctness on your side. You certainly have nearly half a century of bad social policy on your side. You have the media on your side. You have the hosts of the "View" on your side.


Associating anything about my POV with "political correctness" borders on the insane. Nothing I have said is at all "politically correct." It's the opposite, and interestingly, even mem himself "profiled" me as having a traditional marriage, in which my wife does the bulk of the household chores. Also a low income LOL. Not "PC" at all.

Do you see what you guys are doing? You, mem, atholk, you're filtering everything in a completely irrational way.




> But, what you don't have on your side is the emotions of women who actually want "men" in their lives.


Dude it's not "my side". I have no dog in this hunt. This is an interesting intellectual discussion for me over Thanksgiving. My wife (if I have one) and I get along just fine. If I have a wife, then we are completely compatible. (Albeit if I have a wife, ,she's not a sexual 9.5 but then again neither am I. Not even close.) 

Do you think Trenton wants a man in her life? How about Brennan? Dude in your frantic desire to filter out unwelcome opinions you are just casting aside EVERYTHING that contradicts your preconceived world view. 




> And no amount of bluster or bravado or arguing down will put you right with that.


 Men who are happy in their marriages don't feel the need to threaten their wives with going to prostitutes, for *any *reason. They certainly don't take pride in having done so as some sort of "marital repair tactic." That's just bizarre. At best it is an extremely risky tactic borne out of sheer desperation. 

Look, if a mentally stable guy wants to stay married but is dissatisfied with his sex life, and wants to go to prostitutes, he might go, but he will try to hide it from his wife. Openly threatening to go to a prostitute as a manipulation tactic is all kinds of crazy. It's not a "power move," it's a "weakness move." Powerful men don't want or need to threaten their women to build attraction. Weak men do. 

And, bottom line, did it "work"? Nope. Mem's wife's reaction to the threat was to feign acquiesence and pretend a physical ailment impaired her ability to have sex with him.





> Plenty of women will agree with the "logic" of your posts and they may actually - for a minute - think you're right. That is - until they get home and some pathetic "nice guy" tries to get them into bed by doting on them and avoiding conflict.


Dude, are you actually recommending that men should adopt the practice of threatening their wives with growing to hookers in order to induce their wives to have more sex with them? That's what it sounds like, and if that's what you mean, then what you're advocating is batsh*t crazy.






> That's where the rubber - literally - hits the road.
> 
> And, frankly, so should you.



Tell ya what bunky, you go tell your wife, or significant other, right now, that she needs to up her sexual game or you will go get your needs taken care of by some prostitutes. Go do that, right now.

Then come back and tell us what it feels like to have the leftover thanksgiving turkey and all the trimmings dumped on your head.

This will make an interesting holiday story for your buddies.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Originally Posted by marco100
> I posted something inconsistent about my marital status because frankly only an idiot would divulge personal information on a public internet forum.
> 
> You're telling him to listen to my advice but aren't I one of the idiots who post personal information on a public internet forum as well?



I told him to listen to your advice because I think your advice is completely correct, far better than anything I have said, and he would greatly benefit to listen to it. I stand by that opinion, you gave excellent advice.

I certainly do not think you are an "idiot" and if you are going to take personally a little bit of hyperbole, which was NOT directed at you, then you need to get a thicker skin. So I stand by that advice to you.

Finally, I think it is foolish for anyone to post their personal information on a public internet forum. I should not have used the word "idiot" but I forgot how oversensitive even very intelligent people such as yourself can get in these kinds of discussions. 

Probably simply posting whether or not one is married is not going to be too risky. Using one's picture in an avatar on a website such as this, however attractive that person may be, is completely inadvisable.

YMMV.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>Do you see what you guys are doing? You, mem, atholk, you're filtering everything in a completely irrational way.<<

Marco,

Yeah, we are way out there.

We should ignore the actual results in our relationships - and the quantum improvements gained by manning up - and listen to you because you cherry pick a few examples and argue us down?

Just too rich.

Tell it to Joy Behar and Rosie O'Donnell.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

marco100 said:


> I told him to listen to your advice because I think your advice is completely correct, far better than anything I have said, and he would greatly benefit to listen to it. I stand by that opinion, you gave excellent advice.
> 
> I certainly do not think you are an "idiot" and if you are going to take personally a little bit of hyperbole, which was NOT directed at you, then you need to get a thicker skin. So I stand by that advice to you.
> 
> ...


There's something in the water around here. Maybe everyone ate bad turkey. It stinks.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

...and I just have to ask. Is this Jamie? I will really be giggling if it is.


----------



## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> By saying this, you are insulting every single man & woman who comes here & posts openly & honestly = We are all idiots.


I used some hyperbole. Obviously. And you are well aware of that. So what you are doing is attempting to take false umbrage at what I posted by creating what, in essence, is a straw man. You are choosing to interpret my word choice in a totally literal manner when you are well aware that it was not meant literally.

Technically, an "idiot" is a mentally retarded person. Is that what you think I meant to say? That anyone who posts personal information on the internet is mentally retarded? Well to clarify, that is not what I meant.

What I meant to say is that anyone who posts personal information about their relationship on a public internet forum is engaging in possibly very unwise behavior, for numerous reasons. I don't need to go into the whys and wherefores because someone will just interpret that in some sort of negative manner.

In mem's case, maybe his wife hacks into his computer someday, decides she doesn't like what he's posted, and gets a divorce, using every thread he's ever posted to prove that he's emotionally and psychologically abused her. Not saying this will happen, but it has to other people.



> You attacked me on another thread mistakingly assuming I was being "Sarcastic" and lying. When I was infact even agreeing with your wise words! Amazingly , note this, Marco apologized. I can only imagine what a rarity that is .


It's neither amazing nor rare. What you initially posted was ambiguous, because while literally complementary, you used smiley faces that indicated you might have been facetious or sarcastic or ironic. Certainly the reaction I've gotten from many on this thread has been to twist whatever I've said to interpret my intentions in the worst light possible. On the internet, that kind of stuff happens. But when I received your p.m. that clarified that you were sincere. Thus I apologized because I misinterpreted what you meant.

Now it's your turn of course. Will I get the same kind of apology from you?



> I find you terribly intelligent . Even wise. But very very very brash and assuming.


 I'm not brash and assuming at all. What I don't have is any hidden agenda. And I don't particularly care if anyone likes me. If someone takes issue with something I've said, on the merits, fine. But no one has really done that on this thread. 

The bottom line here is we have a man who believes that threatening his wife with going to prostitutes is an effective relationship strategy. It's not. It borders on the insane. IMO. It is evidence of incredibly extreme dysfunctionality in the marital relationship, as is mem's wife's lying about her physical condition to avoid sex, as is a number of other issues mem has posted about and which have been previously discussed. 





> *What I want to know is ..If we are all idiots in your eyes, why do YOU want to stay, play and haggle with us ? * Wouldn't your intelligent purporses be served better elsewhere?


 Stop personalizing everything. I didn't invent the notion that posting one's personal info on the internet is generally very unwise. In fact if you look at some of this forum rules/guidelines (I don't know where the links are) there are many many cautions about divulging personal information on this website. 

Don't come posting on the internet the details of a dysfunctional marital relationship, seeking validation for an obviously dysfunctional approach, and then run crying to mods because ONE PERSON out of all the thousands and millions on the internet actually cared enough about it to say "Hey dude that is not going to work." 




> I give MEM alot of credit for coming here and sharing honestly with us, saying things that even make him sound BAD. This takes courage!! I do not feel those who come here and share their stories & struggles are idiots at all.


 I will try again with different words: It is extremely foolish to post anything on a public internet forum which might even possibly allow you to be personally identified. You can take all the false umbrage to that that you please. But in that case why aren't you using your real name as your screenname? I know athol k's real name is "athol kay" but he's a little bit different since he runs his own relationship website and therefore there is an element of self-promotion which advantages him by using his real name on a website like this one. 




> I have agreed with some of your wisdom even on this thread. And half the time my mouth is hanging open that you said such hard things.


Mem accused me of using tactics which work on three to six year olds but not adults. Are we not all adults here? What exactly have I said that you find at all shocking? There are no little children here, are there? 

I am just calling balls and strikes the way I see it. Let me repeat: Telling your wife that if she does not give you more sex you will go screw some prostitutes has to be about the most counterproductive "relationship strategy" I have ever heard of. I also do not think it is something that an emotionally healthy man would tell his wife, ever. I do think it might be something you might tell your wife if you wanted to get her so angry that she would file for divorce or cheat on you, thus giving you justification to file. But that's not what mem says his intent was. His intent was to "scare" or "frighten" his wife into complying with his sexual demands. I don't think he was successful, I think at this point she's just out-gaming him. That's based not just on my viewpoint but also on athok's statement that he thinks mem's wife has been lying about her pain to avoid sex. Sorry if all that makes your mouth hang open. If men needs unanimous applause from the entire audience here then that's a sign of weakness not strength on his part.





> I personally have some issues with the whole Male Dominance thing myself, I am kind of enjoying this dialog more than I care to admit.


The irony is that none of these guys posting in this thread, at least none of the guys who are reacting so extremely to anything I've posted, are "dominant men." Dominant men don't need to threaten, "scare," or "frighten" (mem's words) their wives to attain some mutually satisfactory level of sexual compatibility. Dominant men who actually run their own PUA/relationship websites like athol k (and by the way I think athol's site is great, I have no idea why he freaked out on me here, maybe he had a bad turkey leg yesterday or something), don't go running to mods as soon as they get into some minor irrelevant disagreement.




> I have even tried taking on the Big Bad Wolf with some of MY personal problems with these things. I kind of like that some of these Men's men have a challenging poster to deal this. This is a compliment to YOU.


They don't want a challenging poster. They actively reject different opinions. All I'm doing is pointing out the obvious. The reason I'm doing it is primarily not because I think I can change mem's mind--that's impossible, he's completely closed off at this point. He's in total denial.

However--thousands of people are probably reading here and I would hate to think some clueless guy, based on reading this thread, might think it would be a very good idea to threaten his wife that he will go to prostitutes unless she gives him more sex. That's such laughably bad advice that I'm totally surprised at where this discussion has gone. 





> I like some of what you say, but you are very very Brash, hard, and assuming much too quickly.


Look the context of this thread is a guy who deliberately threatened his wife with going to prostitutes in order to "scare" or "frighten" her into having more sex with him. I think he should be able to easily tolerate any brashness that he receives, from me or anyone else.

Otherswise, if he can dish it out but not take it--and nothing I have said comes close to threatening a spouse the way mem threatened his--then he's just a bully, plain and simple.



> I personally don't want to see you kicked off of here, so please, tell us a little about yourself. If you are not willing to do this, why stay ? Since we are only idiots anyway.



Tell you about myself?

You already know everything you need to about me.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
It is wonderful that you still feel it so strongly. That is part of a great marriage. 

Those of you for whom English is either your first language, or your reading comprehension level is greater than that of an 8th greater understood my statement the first time. For all others I will reiterate my earlier statement verbatim. This is a PARTICIPATIVE dictatorship of 2. Which means I ask for her input and consider it before acting. Ultimately I make the final choice as to what I do. She does the exact same in reverse. 

My lust has ebbed. It is still high - not as high. At 14 years it hadn't yet started to decline. Obviously hers has though I think there are some behavioral issues on MY part that have added to the hormonal impact of menopause. 

As for her "medical condition" I think Atholk is calling this correctly. The biggest issue is not intercourse pain it is the lack of sexual desire. Because in the past - thinking back on it. When she had desire and ALSO had pain she would routinely offer - insist on taking care of me in another way. 

But I think the combination of hormone changes AND me being too present and too accommodating left her just not wanting to connect. She was beginning to get confused and believe our marriage had silently morphed into a participative dictatorship of ONE. Our recent discussion has at least temporarily put that question completely to bed. 

I am fairly certain I could have achieved the same results by immediately and greatly deprioritizing her needs. However that would have produced a whole different set of conversations primarily the one that goes like this "you are only nice to me when I have sex with you". Of course the response to that is "no, I am simply not willing to put 100% into a marriage when MY needs are being ignored". But that would have taken weeks and weeks to sort out - would have ruined T-giving completely and MAYBE even spilled over across Christmas. This approach rebalanced HER view of the marriage in 24 hours. 




Trenton said:


> OK, I understand. I'll ignore the beta biiitch reference because I don't understand it...lol.
> 
> How about this, I agree with you to the extent that if your wife's behavior is not truly medical then you have an argument. Certainly the sexual health of a relationship is vital for the success of any relationship. You are not her sexual property to do with as she pleases.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wolf,
Thank you. I have slowly incorporated much of your advice into my marriage. The fact that you post about what really "happens" when you do stuff is what gives you so much credibility. 




BigBadWolf said:


> I would encourage everyone to focus on the important topics in this thread.
> 
> Trolling or not, these attacks are a distraction.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

The thing is, Mem, I get it and I know it has worked for both of you and will most likely continue to work but at the same time I can't swallow it and say I think it tastes good because it doesn't to me.

I can respect that it's your relationship and not respect the way you handle it.

I just sincerely want to reiterate that relationships that are not composed of two dictators doling out deals & demands can work. My husband and I are an example of this. Being on these boards actually enhances my appreciation for the man my husband is. I'm continually surprised by the views of many men on these boards.

You are nothing but understanding and generous in your posts but I wonder if you would even consider the advice of another or if you are only here to give advice and are sure that you have all the answers? This is a sincere question to you. Has anything you ever read given you pause or had you change a behavior?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Yes I have "taken" advice. I think you just called me smart but close minded . 

I realize you are making an effort to be diplomatic and appreciate that effort. Note, I have several times asked folks for suggestions as to how THEY would handle this. And the responses I have gotten have either been: divorce her or "what you did was wrong". You will find that I don't really respond well to being told what "not" to do when I feel my W has behaved in an extremely aggressive and hostile manner. 

And before you give me specific advice on what to do, I would ask that you take me/us through the most extreme unprovoked challenge you believe your H has thrown at you during your marriage. What did he do? What did you do? 





Trenton said:


> The thing is, Mem, I get it and I know it has worked for both of you and will most likely continue to work but at the same time I can't swallow it and say I think it tastes good because it doesn't to me.
> 
> I can respect that it's your relationship and not respect the way you handle it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Yes I have "taken" advice. I think you just called me smart but close minded .
> 
> I realize you are making an effort to be diplomatic and appreciate that effort. Note, I have several times asked folks for suggestions as to how THEY would handle this. And the responses I have gotten have either been: divorce her or "what you did was wrong". You will find that I don't really respond well to being told what "not" to do when I feel my W has behaved in an extremely aggressive and hostile manner.
> ...


Smart but close minded, not a bad summary.

The most extreme unprovoked challenge from my husband...hmm. The tricky word here is unprovoked. Our relationship is pretty much cause and effect. 

He is a workaholic though and always has been. He will work and change when he's going to be home 10 times or work 20 hours in a row, etc.

I'm guessing since you travel this might not seem like a big deal but for me it's always been the one thing he does that drives me insane. It's more complex than this but this is the one trait of his that is his trait/behavior alone that drives me insane.

I don't really have advice for you anyway. It would be so against your own principles that it would be in vain.


----------



## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

From about.com, some completely objective, factual information:

Pelvic Inflammatory Disease - What Is PID




> Pelvic inflammatory disease affects millions of women each year in the United States and is an infection of one or more pelvic organs, including the uterus, cervix, and fallopian tubes.
> 
> PID occurs when a bacteria or organism enters the cervix and spreads upward. Symptoms of pelvic inflammatory disease include:
> 
> ...



There is nothing here citing periomenopause as a cause of PID.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

More information about the relationship between PID and early menopause from another website, "Hot Flash Freedom."

What Is Early Menopause?


According to this, the cause and effect relationship between PID and early menopause is such that the onset of a PID infection can trigger symptoms of early menopause, rather than the onset of menopause triggering the PID.




> There are also certain medical conditions that will lead to early menopause:
> 
> * Untreated STD's
> * Endometriosis
> ...


----------



## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Marco, 

I am always happy to see helpful and loving people on TAM.

I choose to stay on TAM because I see a lot of helpful and loving people. 

Rude people are on my ignore list. The moderators won't ban them. I ban them myself. 

I don't like name calling or personal attacks. 

But if you show genuine love towards others, and help others with a sincere heart, I can always let it go fast. 

TAM is a loving community. I am sure you have witnessed already. 

Nobody is perfect. We come together, we each have something good, we do our best to help. So many people come to seek help on TAM, one smart person can't do much. And one smart person's opinion can't help much. Only with a team of smart people who have good hearts can make something work. 

I like TAM because people are loving here, not because people are smart here. 

I left a lot of forums because people there are rude. 

Spending time with rude people is not good for our mental health!


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> 
> 
> Note, I have several times asked folks for suggestions as to how THEY would handle this. And the responses I have gotten have either been: divorce her or "what you did was wrong". You will find that I don't really respond well to being told what "not" to do when I feel* my W has behaved in an extremely aggressive and hostile manner*.
> ...



This is blame-shifting behavior characteristic of an unfaithful spouse.

If you are serious about wanting effective advice, then: 

1. Demand access to all of your wife's health care records/prescriptions etc. for the past three years, particularly her ob-gyn records. There is a very good chance that her repeated PID was caused by an STI. Also get yourself tested for STI's if you haven't done so already. If your wife resists giving you complete access to her medical records, you will have your answer anyway.

2. Hire a private investigator to monitor your wife's behavior, esp. if you are planning to go out of town, but it really doesn't have to wait for that.

3. Get a keylogger for her computer, demand access to her cell phone and email accounts, so you can see what she has been up to, if anything.

4. Also you should insist she take a polygraph.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

marco100 said:


> This is blame-shifting behavior characteristic of an unfaithful spouse.
> 
> If you are serious about wanting effective advice, then:
> 
> ...


Don't know what you are saying!

:scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

marco100 said:


> What I meant to say is that anyone who posts personal information about their relationship on a public internet forum is engaging in possibly very unwise behavior, for numerous reasons......in mem's case, maybe his wife hacks into his computer someday, decides she doesn't like what he's posted, and gets a divorce, using every thread he's ever posted to prove that he's emotionally and psychologically abused her. Not saying this will happen, but it has to other people..


 I agree with what you say here, there IS a danger for some, these things could happen but to assume that all of us R here behind our spouses backs is not the case. Trenton's husband knows & so does mine, has from day 1, I hide absolutely NOTHING from my husband. I read him my threads, the answers I get, all of it. I have always enjoyed forums & debate- he knows this. Why I came here was to SPICE up my sex life - husband has no issues with that. I love the serious nature of this forum. 



marco100 said:


> Now it's your turn of course. Will I get the same kind of apology from you?..


 One thing I am sure of is this-- you wouldn't give a da** if I did or didn't. But truth is -- I like you, whoever you are. And in saying this, I know some others on here will think LESS OF ME, but I will say how I feel. I like your challenging spirit and I like the fact you speak your mind. 


marco100 said:


> The bottom line here is we have a man who believes that threatening his wife with going to prostitutes is an effective relationship strategy. .... It is evidence of incredibly extreme dysfunctionality in the marital relationship, as is mem's wife's lying about her physical condition to avoid sex, as is a number of other issues mem has posted about and which have been previously discussed.


 I can't disagree with these things. My husband would never do that to me, He loves me too much, sex is not paramount in our relationship- to him. * TO ANSWER MEM"S QUESTION HERE TO US WOMEN & WHAT WE WOULD DO *>>>> Me & my husband have even discussed such things in the past , if one of us lost desire & the other had NO interest or wanting to please the other. My husband has told me he would still stay married to me under those circumstances & remain faithful, he loves me THAT much. I told him that he is crazy , he would deserve better & I do not understand HOW he could do that. I HONESTLY told him this would NOT work for me. I know myself too well, that I would grow to resent him terribly under such circumstances & probably even fall into the arms of another out of desperation, if not divorcing 1st. I am just being honest. 

Speaking openly & honestly about what one *MIGHT do * (but hasn't) IF our biggest fears & biggest hurts are realized, I do not find this outragous. Depending on how this is spoken/relayed to our spouses, I do feel it could be very very hurtful. 

I have no idea what context MEM did this in, if he showed almost tears, great hurt in learning his wife has zero interest in pleasing him, deep sadness/pain in response to her no longer caring about their bonding, intimacy, if he showed his transparentness to her -his weakness, how this would KILL him inside, this is his wife, I dont care how dominate any man is, women need to see this side of our men too. IF he did NOT show this -but just ANGER and railing into the idea of = easy solution - let me find a girlfriend, NO, scratch that, but a paid prostitude, I can see where the wive's hurt would be tremendous. 


If MEM truly gives his wife as MUCH LOVE as I give my husband day to day, then his wife will also understand him. 

I don't know if this is the case, I just know about my own marital situation, I am pathetically transparent before my husband, he knows How much I LOVE & adore him, but I also LOVE & need Sexaul intimacy - and alot of it, or I will wither. It is a NEED for me. (As I am sure it also is for MEM). He knows I would NEVER want anyone but him, but if he suddenly refused to be my LOVER, well this is a HUGE dilemma . 

Does MEM's wife KNOW how loved & adored she is and has been for the last 20 + years ?? If so, she should deeply understand what HE needs as well , and so very much want/desire to please him, no matter what the circumstances. 

I guess I would agree, I do not understand why he would have to go to these lengths to get her to comply. Or we are just undersranding it that way, since he shared it with us. 




marco100 said:


> Stop personalizing everything


 I enjoy being personable, and I enjoy when others are as well. 




marco100 said:


> What exactly have I said that you find at all shocking? ?..


 Telling MEM he must have Asbergers syndrome for one. 





marco100 said:


> Dominant men don't need to threaten, "scare," or "frighten" (mem's words) their wives to attain some mutually satisfactory level of sexual compatibility. ..


 I agree with you, this shouldn't be. 




marco100 said:


> Look the context of this thread is a guy who deliberately threatened his wife with going to prostitutes in order to "scare" or "frighten" her into having more sex with him. I think he should be able to easily tolerate any brashness that he receives, from me or anyone else...


 I agree with you again. I think we all can learn a TON from our biggest & loudest critics. Proverbs 13:18 says just this, But we should also listen to Prov 15:1 about using soft answers over harsh, to not stir up anger in those we are trying to help.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Don't know what you are saying!
> 
> :scratchhead: :scratchhead: :scratchhead:


This was a response to mem's post. I believe there is a reasonable likelihood (at least 50%) that his spouse has been unfaithful to him and that there is a reasonable likelihood that her pelvic infections are caused by Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs). This is based on publicly available information from the internet, some of which I have posted. Her denial of sex and aggressive behavior towards him is also characteristic of women who have been emotionally or physically unfaithful to their husbands. This would also explain all the drama going on over the past few years in his marriage. His wife is just about the right age and just about the right stage of life for this, too. Oftentimes married women will justify cheating by re-writing their marital history to make their husbands out to be the bad guy.

In one of his prior posts, (earlier thread), mem talked about one of his wife's pelvic infections and that as a result, she could not have vaginal sex for about two months. That length of time sounds like it would be consistent with a course of treatment of antibiotics for an STI. Obviously if she had an STI her physician would have told her not to have sex with mem until the course of treatment was completed. 

The easiest way to resolve this is simply for mem to get his wife to give him complete access to her medical records. This will show what cause if any her ob-gyn determined for the pelvic infections, and whether any STI was diagnosed. Most likely if she admitted having sex outside the marriage that will be somewhere in the medical records as well because she may have told her doctor. 

Even if it's not from an STI it could have been caused by some lesser bacterial infection resulting from extramarital intercourse. Having a private investigator look into her activities would help resolve this, as would the other tactics I suggest he follow, including a polygraph.

These are all standard techniques when there is a possibility that a spouse has been cheating. Since pelvic inflammations are most frequently caused by STI's, then there is a good likelihood she caught it because she may have been seeing someone else during the two week period that mem was out of town on business.

If mem's wife is innocent of having an affair then there should be no issue about her freely disclosing all information requested. If she is hiding something, she will resist ferociously.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

That is a brilliantly dazzling piece of obfuscation.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I understand it just fine. What I don't understand is the reasoning behind it. Information is absorbed easier when it's in context.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

marco100 said:


> This was a response to mem's post. I believe there is a reasonable likelihood (at least 50%) that his spouse has been unfaithful to him and that there is a reasonable likelihood that her pelvic infections are caused by Sexually Transmitted Infections (STIs). This is based on publicly available information from the internet, some of which I have posted. Her denial of sex and aggressive behavior towards him is also characteristic of women who have been emotionally or physically unfaithful to their husbands. This would also explain all the drama going on over the past few years in his marriage. His wife is just about the right age and just about the right stage of life for this, too. Oftentimes married women will justify cheating by re-writing their marital history to make their husbands out to be the bad guy.
> 
> In one of his prior posts, (earlier thread), mem talked about one of his wife's pelvic infections and that as a result, she could not have vaginal sex for about two months. That length of time sounds like it would be consistent with a course of treatment of antibiotics for an STI. Obviously if she had an STI her physician would have told her not to have sex with mem until the course of treatment was completed.
> 
> ...


Marco,

Sounds like you do know a lot. 

For this, I am really naive.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It's trolling, pure and simple.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Why troll, what's the reasoning? The points are legitimate. The thinking thought out. I am at a loss.


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> That is a brilliantly dazzling piece of obfuscation.


Assuming you are responding to my post (are you?), it's not obfuscatory at all.

Mem's wife has had a series of pelvic infections over the past three years. The most common cause of pelvic infections are STI's. Mem hasn't said he might have given his wife an STI. Therefore if she got an STI, the only place it could have come from is from an OM. Mem's description of his wife's attitude during this time period is completely consistent with a woman who has checked out of the marriage.

It's the easiest thing in the world for him to get her medical records, all he has to do is ask for them. Seeking the objective facts to get the real truth is the opposite of "obfuscatory."


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Deejo,

Don't know why? 

I like your new avatar. 

It is actually very funny!!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You guys are funny. So be it.

You're input is well intentioned, well reasoned out, and very much appreciated.


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## lime (Jul 3, 2010)

Hahaha WOW, I come back after a few hours and this thread has doubled!!

I'll go ahead and respond to the initial series of posts by MEM. I've learned a lot from reading your posts about your relationship with your wife, and I think a lot of your advice applies well to my situation. I agree with your belief that your wife's irrational outbursts were hormonally driven. I have some crazy mood swings occasionally, and I will really push my boyfriend during those times--I instigate conflict, I pout, whine, b****, yell, and question the relationship--I am basically NOT myself! It took quite a while for us to realize this, for me to accept that sometimes I really DID have hormone-related moods (I was always the type to deny that my feelings could be so simply pinned down), and for him to realize that I wasn't being myself; he would always get too hurt and think I was being serious or that I was really just a bad person for acting up. After we figured this out, a few things changed:
1. We realized that I was mostly trying to create a power struggle for some attention.
2. He started being much more assertive and basically dominating these outbursts.
3. The change in his behavior worked wonders! It really does and it's totally weird and irrational, but it fixes almost all of the negative energy when he takes charge and basically pins me until I start treating him better...And it's easy to be respectful and nice once he "proves" that he is worthy of that respect.
This is not how our relationship usually works, but it does work this way for hormone-driven conflicts that I initiate. I think your wife was probably doing the same thing that I do, and I think you handled it well by not letting her get away with the whole "if you loved me, you'd do X" and questioning the marriage.

I do not agree at all with your choice to suggest a girlfriend or paid sex in the way that you did. I get that celibacy is not an option, and I totally agree that she shouldn't put you in that situation. But I was a bit weirded out that you jumped right into the suggestion of sex outside of the marriage--I felt like you did it for shock value at first, and then I thought you were really serious and thought it was a good option. What bothered me was the way that you spoke about it, not the fact that you brought it up (afterall, if she really refused sex for all eternity, I think it would be an acceptable--not a moral, but an acceptable--option). I think after over 20 years of marriage, you could have introduced these ideas in a much more gradual, respectful way. It just seemed so flippant. What I think you could have done would be to say, "I know you are uninterested in sex at all right now, but as I recall that isn't an option in our marriage. What do YOU think would be a good way to resolve this?" And let her talk until you reached some sort of conclusion. I get that you were angry too and might have said some things you didn't mean, but it seemed way too harsh. If my boyfriend said anything remotely similar to what you said to your wife, that would lead me to question the relationship even more. But, then again we are different people--I am probably more insecure than your wife and he is less strong-willed than you.

About the pain during sex... I can again sympathize with your wife. I won't get into too many details, but pain during sex happens and a lot of times it's mild and goes away soon so it's not worth bringing up. She seemed to want to suffer in silence and use that as leverage in a fight, however, and that's some serious bad stuff. Have you talked to her about this? Was she trying to make herself into a martyr? This is where I'm the most concerned for your marriage, because she was creating distance DURING sex. It sounds like you two are doing better now, but it might be good to check in and make sure she's enjoying it now (even if it hurts--I mean enjoying it emotionally and not trying to store up resentment towards you).

For the record, PID can be caused by many things. Don't let Marco even give you the slightest inkling of doubt in your wife's fidelity!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Taken from this website 

Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID) Symptoms, Causes,and Treatment on MedicineNet.com

You can get pelvic inflammatory disease without having an STI. Normal bacteria found in the vagina and on the cervix can sometimes cause pelvic inflammatory disease. No one is sure why this happens. 

Douching can also cause it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lime,
What an extraordinary post. The similarities are striking. She is always strong willed. When not hormonal she is rational, even keeled, fair and candid. When hormonal she is functionally insane. This is NOT to say there are no external factors. 

We had serious issues with our oldest child last year. This created tension and sadness. But it wasn't until - at least I believe - she became hormonal one night that she utterly melted down on me. I posted about it a while ago. A multi-hour litany about everything she had ever been upset/angry about pertaining to our marriage. Much of it having nothing to do with what I had done, rather her rage was at things that were important to me. Like valuing intelligence highly in other people. She doesn't think she is as smart as I am. She isn't. She IS plenty smart to be a fantastic partner and W. And in some ways her mind is quicker than mine. Her cognitive skills while different are very complementary to mine. But I have never done anything deliberately to undermine her intellectual confidence, her self esteem. In fact I consistently compliment her when she does things that are especially clever or well thought out. She writes beautifully - and knows I feel that way. 

Funny thing though. She said almost verbatim the things you did about the timing of what I did. The immediacy of it shocked and hurt her. This whole idea of being patient, addressing it but giving her time to think it through. This is what she says she would have liked. 

I do think she feels/felt resentful that her desire has faded and that she is still obliged to connect with me. Sadly the best thing I can do to increase her desire level would be to travel a fair amount for work. I do not want to do that and she definitely would prefer to have little/no sex and have me around all the time because I am her best friend. You already know how I feel about that idea. 

Like your BF I did try several times many years ago to solve hormonal aggression with kindness, patience and communication. She would get aggressive/mean and I would say - that isn't fair, and it really hurts. She just got MORE aggressive. Then I used silence - days of silence until she apologized. And that typically works. But this situation was so over the top that it called for a special response. 

That said, in a week I will revisit this and attempt to truly understand whether the hormonal outbursts represent temporary insanity or if instead those are the rare moments during which I am getting a short glimpse of how she really feels. 

I have addressed half the equation already. Monday I did ask her if there was anything - and I emphasized ANYTHING I was doing that was turning her OFF. She repeatedly said there was not. But the other half the equation is perhaps what I am NOT doing that perhaps would actually turn her ON. The ugly piece of this is that in the last month plus the only night I got a very definite sexual vibe from her was when I returned from a multi-day business trip. I KNOW that absence creates desire for her but FCS that is a bit much. Perhaps I can produce the same effect simply by being home/around less. I will start with that. 

I absolutely do feel that we are both totally committed to making this work. As for my methods, while harsh they work very well - with her. YMMV-Greatly. 



lime said:


> Hahaha WOW, I come back after a few hours and this thread has doubled!!
> 
> I'll go ahead and respond to the initial series of posts by MEM. I've learned a lot from reading your posts about your relationship with your wife, and I think a lot of your advice applies well to my situation. I agree with your belief that your wife's irrational outbursts were hormonally driven. I have some crazy mood swings occasionally, and I will really push my boyfriend during those times--I instigate conflict, I pout, whine, b****, yell, and question the relationship--I am basically NOT myself! It took quite a while for us to realize this, for me to accept that sometimes I really DID have hormone-related moods (I was always the type to deny that my feelings could be so simply pinned down), and for him to realize that I wasn't being myself; he would always get too hurt and think I was being serious or that I was really just a bad person for acting up. After we figured this out, a few things changed:
> 1. We realized that I was mostly trying to create a power struggle for some attention.
> ...


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## marco100 (Nov 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Taken from this website
> 
> Pelvic Inflammatory Disease (PID) Symptoms, Causes,and Treatment on MedicineNet.com
> 
> ...



Yes, you are correct. However what I have seen (including your link) indicates the most common cause is transmission of bacteria of one kind or another from one person to another. (Not necessarily, but frequently, STI bacteria.) And it would not necessarily be a concern in a happy marriage. What actually triggered my curiosity about the cause was that one of the incidents occurred upon mem's return from being out of town for a while. His wife was both very happy and willing to be sexual with him. These are also both pretty common signs of infidelity--the wife is happy because she has had a chance to be with her lover; her level of sexuality has been raised, and at least temporarily, the husband gets some of the benefit of that. Also, sometimes out of guilt, an unfaithful spouse who has spent time with her lover, in the husband's absence, will devote an inordinate amount of attention to the husband.

In any event the easiest way of finding out what caused the pelvic inflammation episodes is to get access to her medical records. If mem asks and she gets all defensive, that's pretty much the same as if a spouse gets all defensive about any information they have reason to keep a secret from their spouse. It generally means something "not nice" has been going on that they want to conceal.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Why troll, what's the reasoning? The points are legitimate. The thinking thought out. I am at a loss.


Telling someone their wife has likely been unfaithful isn't trolling?


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## Chris H. (Jan 27, 2007)

Sorry to the people who had to deal with the new member who seems to have come on the site just to start trouble. Thanks for reporting the posts and showing where the person had made conflicting statements about their background in other places. That kind of stuff really helps show that they are only here to start trouble.

We don't tolerate that kind of behavior because we want this to be a supportive place for people to feel safe coming to ask for advice.

Thanks for making TAM an awesome community!


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> The curious inhabitants of menopausia...


Hilarious and well written.  (Sorry I didn't read it sooner.) 

Mrs Ocotillo has a big six-O on the horizon and she's still not done with this...

One relatively rare inhabitant of menopausia is raging libido and it's severe enough that there are actually support groups for women experiencing it.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

4 year old thread.

But MEM...you still baffle me. Not sure what to thnk....


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