# I Need Objective Input



## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

I've spent a lot of time searching this forum and others, prior to posting this. It has made me realize both that DH and I clearly have some issues, but also that in comparison with the things other relationships endure, maybe our situation isn't so bad. Forgive this long post....I mostly just need to get this out!

Back story: DH and I met 12 years ago. I was 18, in university, he was 25. We were both working in a nightclub. I was young, confident, care free, spontaneous, and he had left a serious (4 year) relationship the year before with a woman who was none of those things. I know that those things about me were appealing to him. Our relationship started merely as "fun" - we had mutual friends, we were often in large social settings together. One day he asked me out - I was attracted to him and was interested in getting to know him better. After that we began spending a lot of time together. 6 months in he told me he loved me and wanted to be together. Everything was so carefree and easy. Another 2 years passed, we had lived together all that time. I was done school, and he proposed to me. He had gotten a really good job, I was working towards my career - things were getting less "spontaneous", but it felt great to be growing together. We were so happy - we'd never had any issues - no fights or problems or real arguments. We had a great sex life, enjoyed spending time together. I was glad to marry him, we seemed like the perfect fit. So, we got married. Two months later I got pregnant, while ON BIRTH CONTROL. I was NOT ready, but we talked about it. He was overwhelmed with joy - he had always wanted to be a dad. I always wanted to be a mom, I just didn't expect it so soon - I was only 21. But we were happy, and married, and we began excitedly planning to become parents. Our daughter was born 10 days before our first anniversary, after a terrible labor and delivery where I almost died. 

Right around this time he got a promotion at work. He was now leading the commercial construction crew for several government buildings, etc. It meant way more money and I supported him taking this position. This required him to start travelling. So, when our daughter was 1 month old he started having to be away 3 weeks at a time, home for 1 week. This was the start of our first big problems. I was alone, on mat leave, tired, and struggling with new motherhood. My daughter is the best thing that happened to me - but she was a tough baby. When DH was home I really needed some time for me, and some time to help with things around the house I couldn't do - clean out the gutters, patch drywall, etc. But he wanted to visit all his buddies, go out to the bar, do fun things on his few days off. I understood this but began to resent it. I felt totally alone. He told me my feeling that way was unwarranted and unfair - he works hard to support us and wants some time to relax when he is home, and didn't want to hear about how he wasn't helping out or doing what I wanted him to do. For months he told me my feelings didn't matter, I was being crazy and unfair and irrational. SO - I began no longer telling him my feelings. I just didn't feel like talking to him about how I felt, hoping he could maybe see where I was coming from, and instead being told I was crazy.

This in-turn made me begin to withdraw from him emotionally as well. I couldn't speak to him and he made me feel like how I felt didn't matter to him. It didn't matter to him that his actions were hurting me - he told me I was responsible for my feelings and I should just decide to stop feeling what I was feeling. We began to become totally un-connected. We stopped having sex most of the time. Motherhood made me begin to be more specific about life - we had a daily schedule, I wanted the house to be cleaner than in my old university days. I became less care-free. Between him being gone all of the time and not having anyone to watch the baby we stopped going out or doing anything social, even when he was home. I had our son two years after our daughter, mostly because I didn't want her to be an only child. I experienced another terrible labor and delivery, after which the delivering doctor told me I shouldn't have any more children, unless I was willing to risk my life again. I began hormonal birth control again. Since I had gotten pregnant on birth control before I was always afraid it would happen again. I struggled to enjoy sex because all I could think about was "what if I get pregnant?". He won't wear a condom. Hormonal birth control has made me gain 30 lbs. On top of the 30 lbs I struggled to shake from my two pregnancies. This made me less confident and unhappy with my body. I was on an emotional roller coaster. In 2011 He said he would go get a vasectomy so that I could get off all the hormones.

Over the years we have lost touch completely. In 2010 he finished his construction job and was home full time we were on totally different pages. I go to bed at 11, he stays up until 3 am, playing video games. He either sleeps on the sofa or comes to bed at 3 and wakes me up trying to have sex. When I have to get up at 5 am to workout. I tried asking him to come to bed with me - I'd love to have sex. He says he can't go to bed that early. I say you don't have to - lets have sex and then you can go play your video games. Never happened. Not once.

We inherited his family business in 2012 and now both work from home together, so he's not gone any more. But, these same problems keep coming up - he thinks I'm "too A-type personality, where did the old carefree, fun-loving you go?". She's gone. I work full time from home (usually 60 hours per week), do most of the kid-stuff (soccer, tae kwon do, gymnastics, homework, pick ups and drop offs, etc), ALL of the house work, laundry, etc. He says I can't handle all of these responsibilities and I'm too stressed. I don't feel stressed...so I try to say so. He says "yes you do!"....like he can tell me how I feel?????? I tried stress-relief techniques - I went to yoga regularly for months...then he said I was taking too much time away from him and the kids going to yoga. So I stopped. I started working out at home, hoping to get in shape and knowing it would help with my "stress levels". He gets angry if I want to work out in the evenings, when there is a lot to do already, since that puts more on his shoulders to take care of. So I started getting up at 5 am to work out before he's awake. I lost 60 lbs. I felt amazing. He seemed happy for a while.

When I look back I think we have had many great times. Family vacations, awesome days, fun with our kids, great little moments. We haven't had money issues, we're fortunate to have a fairly comfortable life. But when you ask him he says I've made him miserable since we got married, that every single day has been awful. He says he's sick of being miserable. And I don't want him to have to be with someone who makes him feel that way.

In 2014 I got sick - my thyroid went nuts. I struggled with lethargy and weight gain. My confidence and sex drive plummeted again. He dislikes women who aren't confident. He complained that I was getting lazy and all I wanted to do was sleep. And I couldn't talk to him about what I was going through because all he ever says is "stop feeling that way!" - like I can just turn my emotions off. My thyroid problem is now controlled with meds, but I'm back to trying to work off a bunch of weight AGAIN. And my thyroid meds AND birth control together were making it impossible. I dropped the birth control - we weren't having sex anyway.

Until early January. In February I found out I was pregnant. I was terrified and I took a couple of days to process this. I was planning to tell him, I just didn't know how. A week later I woke up covered in blood. I had miscarried. I can't explain all the feelings I had...sadness, relief, fear, anger....for five years he said he'd get a vasectomy. I really don't want him to go through with the procedure if he doesn't want to, so I never push about it or mention it. And then I couldn't tell him what happened to me because I couldn't ever talk to him about my feelings, and I knew he'd be mad I went off the birth control. But I was upset, getting pregnant takes two. He should be willing to wear a condom. A lot of the time I refuse him wanting sex because he won't wear a condom, but this ONE time I didn't, bam. Pregnant. 

For at least 3 years we have been living like room mates and working like business partners. Two days ago he told me he wanted to be happy and he can't stay in our relationship if things don't change. He wants me to be less high-strung (he doesn't think I should worry about being on time for things, or if the house isn't clean, or if the kids homework is done). He thinks I take on too many tasks and that I am not capable of taking care of all of my responsibilities. He wants to have sex. He wants us to "go out and do fun things like we used to". He wants to have a wife who cherishes him and acknowledges all his hard work. Many of these things are reasonable - I don't think he's asking for the world. 

I tried to explain to him that I wanted to be happy too, I just didn't know how. I tried to tell him that being on time and tidying the house and having a schedule are all part of being a grown up. These things are part of having a family and taking care of each other. These things are part of life. Him saying I shouldn't worry about them makes me feel confused - they are required items. He says I should just choose to not worry about them, but I want to worry about them. They are part of what makes me a good mom - taking care of my family and being responsible. I told him I'd be happy to go out more often, but I'm not interested in drinking all night at a bar like we used to - he still loves this. Every wednesday night he meets his buddies and drinks until 3 am. I don't want this - I don't enjoy it, I don't want to be hungover in the middle of the week. I want to do enjoyable things that don't revolve around acting like I'm 18 again. I'm fine with him doing so, but I'm not into it. Let's go bowling, see a movie, go for a hike, have a picnic lunch, go for a drive - we used to do all those things too! Him not wanting to do those things makes me feel like he's not interested in spending time with just me - he'd rather we went to the bar where all his single buddies are and he doesn't have to be alone with me. I told him it's hard to verbally acknowledge and praise all his hard work when he's constantly telling me how I'm not measuring up, how I can't handle all my responsibilities. This makes me feel like he thinks I'm incompetent and lazy. I told him I can't have sex until he's willing to do it safely, and then the miscarriage slipped out. I told him about it. And he was PISSED that I didn't tell him about it, saying "I'm your husband - I can't even believe you couldn't tell me that!". He completely focused in on me not telling him. He didn't say "oh god, I'm sorry you had to go through that", or try to comfort me. He just zeroed in on me not telling him and what a betrayal that was. I tried to explain to him that I was sad that I lost a baby of ours - our babies are the best thing we've done. My heart was broken over it, and I was feeling so so sad, and I couldn't talk about it right away. And, in classic DH response, he said "well don't feel that way - you had no choice". It doesn't matter - I know it is what it is....that doesn't mean I can't feel sad over it. He said "that's so delusional, you can't change it, so why stress over it?". Because, it hurts. All of these things he expects me to change for him, but they make me FEEL awful about myself and about him. These things he does and says HURT me - and I can't tell him they hurt me because he says I just should choose not to be hurt in the first place. And THAT makes me feel like he must be ok with hurting me, if he's not willing to see it from my perspective, not willing to see how his actions impact me.

Basically, he's telling me that if I don't change all of those things about myself he can't stay with me. I said "I can't change many of those things if you don't stop making me feel so badly about all of it - about who I am, who I've grown to be. I can't be loving and nurturing and give up everything about myself for someone who is ok with making me feel so badly, who is ok with hurting me." He just said "you're crazy. I am not hurting you - you are fabricating these feelings because you hate me. If you can't do these things for me then this is over. I need a divorce if you won't change." And he left for a couple hours, came home, and has been giving me basically the silent treatment ever since - two days now. 

I don't even know how to proceed. What do I do? Do I try to talk this out more? I've suggested counselling for years. He says he's willing to go, but when I book an appointment he's always "busy". Or are we just at an impasse? Are we too different than we were when we fell in love? He is totally unwilling to take any responsibility for his impact on me and our relationship. I feel like the only way to overcome this is to just be who he wants me to be. But I'm so resentful that I have to completely change everything about me if I want to be with him. And I'm scared that resentment will never go away. I want a partner who understands that I'm human and my feelings matter. I want a partner who isn't ok with making me feel SO negative about myself. I want a partner who is interested in me for who I am, not for who he thinks I should be, or who I used to be. I want a partner who values my hard working nature and my commitment to my kids. I want a partner who likes some of the same things I do. I want a partner who respects my body and will practice safe sex. I just don't know if he can be those things for me any more. 

How do I know that it's just over, or if I should keep working at it? I'm considering separation - to see if things will be easier. BUT - we own a business together. We work together every day. I don't know how to do this. And we inherited HIS family business, which includes our home on the property - which means I have to leave - it's not reasonable to expect him to leave the house he grew up in, the business that was left to him. Which means I need an income, I can't just not work. So I'd have to find a new job - which is feasible, I definitely think I could get something good. But, this would change EVERY SINGLE aspect of my life all at once. I don't know if I can handle all of it. 

Even if you have nothing to say, if you've made it this far, thanks for listening.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Unfortunately, it sounds like your husband is not very mature and reliable. Certainly not enough to raise a family. This is a character trait problem and without his acknowledgement, he'll never have the determination to change. He'll probably never even want to change. Are you currently expecting your third child?


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> Unfortunately, it sounds like your husband is not very mature and reliable. Certainly not enough to raise a family. This is a character trait problem and without his acknowledgement, he'll never have the determination to change. He'll probably never even want to change. Are you currently expecting your third child?


No - I suffered a miscarriage last month. And yes - mature and reliable aren't words I'd use to describe him.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Cljb said:


> No - I suffered a miscarriage last month. And yes - mature and reliable aren't words I'd use to describe him.


Sorry, I didn't put it together that it had happened just last month. Does you husband help with the childcare and play an important role in your kids everyday lives?


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> Sorry, I didn't put it together that it had happened just last month. Does you husband help with the childcare and play an important role in your kids everyday lives?


Yes - since we work from home he is here daily. Our kids adore him, and he completely enjoys them - it's one of the things I love most about him, he's a great dad. They spend time together, he takes them fishing, helps with getting everyone to and from soccer and other activities when he can (I do do most of this, though). Bike rides, playing in the park, all those little things. He just doesn't think they need schedules or regimented lives. He is also great at making sure he and I are on the same page as far as the kids are concerned - ie. if they ask me for something and I say no and then they try it on him, he always backs up what I say. 

We never discuss our issues with the kids around, we don't raise our voices. We don't call each other names or any of that....

I just think he hates dealing with any one else's feelings, since he doesn't handle his own well, and he can't take responsibility for making me feel badly.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Cljb said:


> I want a partner who respects my body and will practice safe sex.


What does this mean?

I'm guessing that sex is a major issue?


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> I'm guessing that sex is a major issue?


I can't safely carry a baby to term or deliver due to a medical condition. I risked my life twice and nearly died both times. After my second baby was born the delivery doctor told me I likely wouldn't live through another pregnancy. I have two amazing kids already and don't feel like risking my life again. Not to mention, I just don't want another baby - especially with my marriage like this. My medical condition also prohibits me from getting my tubes tied. I spent many years on birth control, I was on the pill when I got pregnant with my first baby, and so even when I'm on the pill I'm afraid of pregnancy. This impacts my sex life, since I can't really enjoy sex when he won't wear a condom. Hormonal birth control causes me to gain a lot of weight, which I've worked hard many times to re-lose. It also conflicts with my thyroid meds and I'm extremely hormonal on them. I don't want to feel this way any longer. But he regularly wants to have sex without a condom or any thing any ways. I feel that's disrespectful to my body.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Cljb said:


> Right around this time he got a promotion at work. He was now leading the commercial construction crew for several government buildings, etc. It meant way more money and I supported him taking this position. This required him to start travelling. So, when our daughter was 1 month old he started having to be away 3 weeks at a time, home for 1 week. This was the start of our first big problems. I was alone, on mat leave, tired, and struggling with new motherhood. My daughter is the best thing that happened to me - but she was a tough baby. When DH was home I really needed some time for me, and some time to help with things around the house I couldn't do - clean out the gutters, patch drywall, etc. But he wanted to visit all his buddies, go out to the bar, do fun things on his few days off. I understood this but began to resent it. I felt totally alone. He told me my feeling that way was unwarranted and unfair - he works hard to support us and wants some time to relax when he is home, and didn't want to hear about how he wasn't helping out or doing what I wanted him to do.


When he sees you unhappy, he takes it personally. So all that he does to love (male type of love) in his mind should bring you happiness.

Newborns are *tough*, with and without an egalitarian setup in the household. Not only does he not see that, he does not validate your feelings, yet wants you to validate his.



> For months he told me my feelings didn't matter, I was being crazy and unfair and irrational. SO - I began no longer telling him my feelings. I just didn't feel like talking to him about how I felt, hoping he could maybe see where I was coming from, and instead being told I was crazy.


Never, ever, ever stop telling the truth to one another. Whether or not it is accepted with enthusiasm should not dissuade you, although I completely understand and know why you stopped.

1. You have to respect him enough to take it wrong.
2. You have to respect yourself enough to continue having avoice.
3. Possibly evaluate your communication skills.




> This in-turn made me begin to withdraw from him emotionally as well. I couldn't speak to him and he made me feel like how I felt didn't matter to him. It didn't matter to him that his actions were hurting me - he told me I was responsible for my feelings and I should just decide to stop feeling what I was feeling.


If only it was this easy, no? In a lot of ways, feelings (negative ones) can be rationalized away. But in this case, you are asking for a relationship to consist of passion, commitment and friendship. Relationships must consist of empathy, which greatly reduces the hurt feelings from each other.





> We began to become totally un-connected. We stopped having sex most of the time. Motherhood made me begin to be more specific about life - we had a daily schedule, I wanted the house to be cleaner than in my old university days. I became less care-free. Between him being gone all of the time and not having anyone to watch the baby we stopped going out or doing anything social, even when he was home.


At this point, the friendship and passion pillars have dwindled, leaving the relationship to hang on the string of commitment.





> Hormonal birth control has made me gain 30 lbs. On top of the 30 lbs I struggled to shake from my two pregnancies. This made me less confident and unhappy with my body. I was on an emotional roller coaster. In 2011 He said he would go get a vasectomy so that I could get off all the hormones.


Women that exercise have much better perceptions of their body images, even when they lose no weight.


> Over the years we have lost touch completely. In 2010 he finished his construction job and was home full time we were on totally different pages. I go to bed at 11, he stays up until 3 am, playing video games. He either sleeps on the sofa or comes to bed at 3 and wakes me up trying to have sex. When I have to get up at 5 am to workout. I tried asking him to come to bed with me - I'd love to have sex. He says he can't go to bed that early. I say you don't have to - lets have sex and then you can go play your video games. Never happened. Not once.


At this point you have to start setting some boundaries. Sex is a mutual gift of love from one another, not something to be one-sided and not to be rushed to and rushed through. You aren't denying him, you are showing him the path forward to more intimacy, something every relationship needs.


> We inherited his family business in 2012 and now both work from home together, so he's not gone any more. But, these same problems keep coming up - he thinks I'm "too A-type personality, where did the old carefree, fun-loving you go?". She's gone.


She's gone? The connection is what is gone. The problem is that he still is comparing you to his image of you of when he was infatuated. You can never live up to that idealization.



> I work full time from home (usually 60 hours per week), do most of the kid-stuff (soccer, tae kwon do, gymnastics, homework, pick ups and drop offs, etc), ALL of the house work, laundry, etc. He says I can't handle all of these responsibilities and I'm too stressed. I don't feel stressed...so I try to say so. He says "yes you do!"....like he can tell me how I feel?????? I tried stress-relief techniques - I went to yoga regularly for months...then he said I was taking too much time away from him and the kids going to yoga. So I stopped.


Let me put it this way. I cannot imagine how any person, male or female, is capable of doing that much work. I have an incredibly busy life, but I feel your workload overshadows mine.


> I started working out at home, hoping to get in shape and knowing it would help with my "stress levels". He gets angry if I want to work out in the evenings, when there is a lot to do already, since that puts more on his shoulders to take care of. So I started getting up at 5 am to work out before he's awake. I lost 60 lbs. I felt amazing. He seemed happy for a while.


He needs to find your outer beauty, no matter what weight you present to the relationship. Your body image is for you. Sexiness isn't a look; its a feeling. But if that met one of his desires for a while, he will still have the other issues to look to, to argue about. There is still that underlying lack of friendship and passion.



> When I look back I think we have had many great times. Family vacations, awesome days, fun with our kids, great little moments. We haven't had money issues, we're fortunate to have a fairly comfortable life. But when you ask him he says I've made him miserable since we got married, that every single day has been awful. He says he's sick of being miserable. And I don't want him to have to be with someone who makes him feel that way.


That is his perception. To him, you aren't you. He sees negativity. When you are upset, he takes that as a personal attack on him.


> In 2014 I got sick - my thyroid went nuts. I struggled with lethargy and weight gain. My confidence and sex drive plummeted again. He dislikes women who aren't confident. He complained that I was getting lazy and all I wanted to do was sleep.


Illness anyone? 



> And I couldn't talk to him about what I was going through because all he ever says is "stop feeling that way!" - like I can just turn my emotions off.


It takes a tremendous effort to reprogram your emotional state of mind, but that comes along with it an improved interpersonal relationship. You still have a need for connection - a physiological need that must be fulfilled.


> Until early January. In February I found out I was pregnant. I was terrified and I took a couple of days to process this. I was planning to tell him, I just didn't know how. A week later I woke up covered in blood. I had miscarried. I can't explain all the feelings I had...sadness, relief, fear, anger....for five years he said he'd get a vasectomy. I really don't want him to go through with the procedure if he doesn't want to, so I never push about it or mention it. And then I couldn't tell him what happened to me because I couldn't ever talk to him about my feelings, and I knew he'd be mad I went off the birth control.


You can. Fear is the feeling of an actual event. Anxiety is fearing the fear. The more you stand up, the easier it will be and the more seriously he will take you.




> For at least 3 years we have been living like room mates and working like business partners. Two days ago he told me he wanted to be happy and he can't stay in our relationship if things don't change.


Great.

He wants me to be less high-strung (he doesn't think I should worry about being on time for things, or if the house isn't clean, or if the kids homework is done). He thinks I take on too many tasks and that I am not capable of taking care of all of my responsibilities. 



> He wants to have sex. He wants us to "go out and do fun things like we used to".


Great........but sexual arousal is an all day process for women, like it or not, men.



> He wants to have a wife who cherishes him and acknowledges all his hard work. Many of these things are reasonable - I don't think he's asking for the world.


That is the typical type of male loving. Men and women usually love in different ways, with the romance type of love being attributed to women, typically. I think that is unfair, as both sexes need the same thing, as romance improves intimacy and connection....... if he likes the feeling of endorphin releases, then he should get on board. Men just tend to feel emasculated or that they may be judged if they give romantic love.


> I tried to explain to him that I wanted to be happy too, I just didn't know how. I tried to tell him that being on time and tidying the house and having a schedule are all part of being a grown up. These things are part of having a family and taking care of each other. These things are part of life. Him saying I shouldn't worry about them makes me feel confused - they are required items.


He could help or how about a cleaning service?


> I told him I'd be happy to go out more often, but I'm not interested in drinking all night at a bar like we used to - he still loves this. Every wednesday night he meets his buddies and drinks until 3 am. I don't want this - I don't enjoy it, I don't want to be hungover in the middle of the week. I want to do enjoyable things that don't revolve around acting like I'm 18 again. I'm fine with him doing so, but I'm not into it. Let's go bowling, see a movie, go for a hike, have a picnic lunch, go for a drive - we used to do all those things too! Him not wanting to do those things makes me feel like he's not interested in spending time with just me - he'd rather we went to the bar where all his single buddies are and he doesn't have to be alone with me.


Speak up and plan some dates. Make an invitation to do some of your dates and maybe some of his type of dates. If he refuses, let him do so. But do not stop inviting him.



> I told him it's hard to verbally acknowledge and praise all his hard work when he's constantly telling me how I'm not measuring up, how I can't handle all my responsibilities. This makes me feel like he thinks I'm incompetent and lazy. I told him I can't have sex until he's willing to do it safely, and then the miscarriage slipped out. I told him about it. And he was PISSED that I didn't tell him about it, saying "I'm your husband - I can't even believe you couldn't tell me that!". He completely focused in on me not telling him.


Regardless of his lack of validation of your feelings, you did not respect him enough to tell him.




> He didn't say "oh god, I'm sorry you had to go through that", or try to comfort me. He just zeroed in on me not telling him and what a betrayal that was. I tried to explain to him that I was sad that I lost a baby of ours - our babies are the best thing we've done. My heart was broken over it, and I was feeling so so sad, and I couldn't talk about it right away. And, in classic DH response, he said "well don't feel that way - you had no choice". It doesn't matter - I know it is what it is....that doesn't mean I can't feel sad over it. He said "that's so delusional, you can't change it, so why stress over it?".


Again, he lacks any empathetic capacity. As such, he takes it personally, instead of seeing someone that is in pain.


> Basically, he's telling me that if I don't change all of those things about myself he can't stay with me. I said "I can't change many of those things if you don't stop making me feel so badly about all of it - about who I am, who I've grown to be. I can't be loving and nurturing and give up everything about myself for someone who is ok with making me feel so badly, who is ok with hurting me." He just said "you're crazy. I am not hurting you - you are fabricating these feelings because you hate me. If you can't do these things for me then this is over. I need a divorce if you won't change." And he left for a couple hours, came home, and has been giving me basically the silent treatment ever since - two days now.


Victims often reciprocate vengeance in order to offload the burden from themselves to others. They feel uncomfortable and feel they have to rid themselves of the pain, and it doesn't really factor in to them that they are hurting others.



> I don't even know how to proceed. What do I do? Do I try to talk this out more? I've suggested counselling for years. He says he's willing to go, but when I book an appointment he's always "busy".


Counseling is NOT for crisis points. It can actually make the situation worse.

What you do is focus on yourself. There are a lot of ways that you can force change on him, but you have to master your emotions and master speaking from a standpoint of unwavering strength. When you speak, he does not respect you and feels that he can debate the subject. When you speak from this standpoint of unwavering strength, it is like you put a boulder in his lap; a boulder that he can't do anything with, except accept and deal with.



> Or are we just at an impasse? Are we too different than we were when we fell in love? He is totally unwilling to take any responsibility for his impact on me and our relationship. I feel like the only way to overcome this is to just be who he wants me to be. But I'm so resentful that I have to completely change everything about me if I want to be with him.


One partner must lead the way. If you think it is unfair, it is. But it being unfair is just a challenge, and one that can make the leader a better and more resilient person. You want to be the best person you can be, so take on this if you can envision good times to come *IF *the connection is re-established.



> And I'm scared that resentment will never go away. I want a partner who understands that I'm human and my feelings matter. I want a partner who isn't ok with making me feel SO negative about myself. I want a partner who is interested in me for who I am, not for who he thinks I should be, or who I used to be. I want a partner who values my hard working nature and my commitment to my kids. I want a partner who likes some of the same things I do. I want a partner who respects my body and will practice safe sex. I just don't know if he can be those things for me any more.


It will go away if you let it. You are holding onto these feelings. You are living in the past. Your wants and needs are completely normal and necessary in any strong relationship. It takes a number of concepts to master, but it is easy to get to the point of having a "mindful relationship." When the connection is re-established, all of these problems evaporate, but it takes time and effort to break through the layers of resentment and contempt that have built up.



> How do I know that it's just over, or if I should keep working at it? I'm considering separation - to see if things will be easier.


It will be easier with separation, but you are signaling that you want out when doing so. Again, if you see a possibility to be happy with him when the connection is re-established, then put forth the effort.



> BUT - we own a business together. We work together every day. I don't know how to do this. And we inherited HIS family business, which includes our home on the property - which means I have to leave - it's not reasonable to expect him to leave the house he grew up in, the business that was left to him. Which means I need an income, I can't just not work. So I'd have to find a new job - which is feasible, I definitely think I could get something good. But, this would change EVERY SINGLE aspect of my life all at once. I don't know if I can handle all of it.


No matter what your decision is, you will be fine. If you can handle your insane workload, you can do anything. That much I am confident of.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks for taking so much time to respond, Relationship Teacher! I definitely think that I have communication issues - I can't imagine why else it is so difficult for me to express anything to him. I'm attending therapy and trying techniques for fixing this. None of them are working. I'm doing my best to stay positive, empathize, see things from his perspective, listen, try to problem solve, so many things to help me communicate more efficiently. It's not getting better. I'm beginning to wonder if we aren't just so out-of-sync with each other now that we can't speak about anything without getting worked up or it being pre-charged with negativitiy.

I feel as though my relationship is completely without empathy. He is incapable of feeling it. I don't know how to be with someone like that.

As for my weight issues - he has never had an issue with my weight. He actually tends to prefer me a little "rounder" - he regularly tells me I'm beautiful. The need to lose weight is always mine, and being heavier directly affects whether or not I feel sexy. When I am heavier I have lower self-esteem. I don't feel as attractive or as healthy. He can't understand this. He thinks that, since he thinks I'm sexy, then I should just feel that about myself. He can't empathize with me needing to feel good about my body in order to feel sexually desirable. 

We do have a cleaning lady come in once every two weeks since last year - I finally just set it up, as I was totally in need of some help. He thinks this is unnecessary, that we don't need to be that worried about the house cleaning. 

There are many things I've handled wrong in this marriage - I should have told him about the pregnancy ASAP. I shouldn't have pulled away years ago - I should have fought harder then, so we wouldn't be this deep now. I should have stayed attentive and respectful to him despite how he was making me feel. I wish I could go back and change this.

You've given me much to think about - I will spend some time on this tonight and tomorrow in my counselling session. I don't want to just give up - if this relationship doesn't work out I need to know I did everything I could to try to save it.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

I think RT touched on a lot of good points that I don't need to repeat here. But I would add that if your husband refuses to use protection and if hormonal BC has failed you, then you should take matters into your own hands and get your tubes tied (if you can afford it). If you have insurance it shouldn't be terrible (my vasectomy cost me a big fat $35 copay, but then again tubal ligations are a bit more complicated). 

That or categorically refuse sex, but it sounds like your husband wouldn't take that well.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Unfortunately my medical condition prohibits me from having my tubes tied as well. I would honestly prefer this method to any other - I feel that I would like to have the control over getting pregnant since it's MY body that can't physically do so any more. But this is not available to me. My only options are hormones (which have caused me many problems), non-hormonal methods (which he hates - he isn't aroused nearly as much with them, which is why he won't wear a condom), or a hysterectomy. Since I'm only 30 I'd like to push menopause off a little longer, however I'm not adverse to this option either. This may be the road I have to take. If we have exhausted all other options AND we think we can heal our emotional relationship I would happily explore this.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Sorry you feel so bad
A few things

1. Your H is a selfish oaf who has not grown up at all. He is immature and doesn't know how to handle your emotions. His refusal to not use a condom knowing the implications for your health is really selfish and inconsiderate and his reaction to your miscarriage says it all. You need to start taking care of yourself. You need to do exercise, etc take time out for yourself. if he can do out late drinking with the guys then make it clear you can also do something for yourself. 

2. On the other hand, you do sound as if you might be overdoing the business, the housework, the kids schedule, etc. This cannot continue, somethings gotta give. i would suggest you make a list of all the things you do and drop some of them. The first ones to go should be the things you do for your H, e.g. his laundry, his food, etc. Then tell him you are taking his advice and loosening up a bit, dropping some of the tasks. Your H talks a good game about you not being so stressed about things, easy for him to say when everything gets done, let him see it does not get done by itself, if he complains tell it would be nice is he helped.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Teach him empathy. .... when he says he wants a wife to cherish him tell him to just stop feeling that way. If he doesn't like that you're unhappy he can just stop feeling that way 

It's been my experience that people who lack empathy get their own feelings hurt easy enough. 

His selfishness where birth control is concerned is inexcusable. Tell him that you almost died with the two kids and between that and your other medical issues you can't take hormonal birth control and you can't get pregnant again.

He can either wear a condom or get a vasectomy if he wants to have sex. You aren't here to service him, he's your partner.

Why don't you tell him that you can't be with a guy who thinks he's 20 and doesn't act like a hb and father, and who is all about himself. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielleBennett (Oct 9, 2015)

When you had children, you matured more and did what any responsible mother would do. You took care of the kids, worked and cleaned. Your husband didn't mature from all of this and it's about time he took the stick out of his butt and grew up. If he feels like you can't handle your responsibilities then he can get up and help you instead of complaining about it. The fact that he doesn't let you express how you feel or talk about your feelings infuriates me. Especially after your miscarriage. How can you NOT be sad about that? Are you married to a human or a robot?

If he is threatening divorce because you won't change and go back to your partying ways then screw him and let him go. Do not change for anyone. Keep taking care of your kids and be a great mother. It will be hard but you can get a job and your own place, he can pay child support if you have the kids and it will take a while to get on your feet but you wouldn't have to be in a deep depression where you can't express your feelings and forcing yourself to change for a man. In the future you could meet the partner that you want and need and things will be better, you could be happier. 

If you want to try and work this out then suggest counseling again. Show him your post, make him take your feelings into consideration. If he won't go or refuses to talk this over with you by simply telling you to turn off a switch and stop feeling that way, then just let him go. No one deserves that treatment.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Thought I'd post an update - it's been nearly 4 months since my initial post. 

I thank you all for your input. I was able to implement several suggestions. H and I sat down shortly after I posted that, and we discussed things. I had to premise the conversation with "I would really like to sit down and talk about all of this. Please don't get defensive or feel I am attacking you - I'm simply looking to discuss this decently between us. We are both here together - we did all of this together. I am not innocent in any of this. We have serious communication issues, so I NEED this conversation to NOT spiral out of control. Please". He was willing. We discussed many things, for many hours. The things we were unhappy about between us, and made a strategic plan for how we were going to TRY to overcome them. 

We agreed to give this our all for 6 months, at which time we would re-evaluate our feelings and our progress:

1) Intimacy - I explained that I NEED to feel safe and respected within our intimate relationship, and that meant using whatever forms of birth control we had to so that I don't get pregnant. He insisted AGAIN that he was going to go for a vasectomy - that he would book the consult that week and get the process rolling. I told him I was happy to continue exploring my own birth control solution so as to not affect his body so permanently with this situation - he insisted he wanted me to not take the hormones anymore because of their impact on my weight and emotional stability. I insisted I was only comfortable with him getting a vasectomy if he wanted it for HIMSELF. He adamantly insists he has no desire for more kids and the vasectomy was his wish. We discussed birth control plans for in the mean-time - he said he would wear a condom. I told him if we were safe, I would like to PLAN to have sex at LEAST 3 times per week. If that meant we had to schedule the days or whatever, I thought we should. I feel like our physical disconnection is a huge part of our issue, so I hoped that re-lighting that fire would help. 

He STILL has NOT even called the Doctor he was referred to to book the consultation. In the mean time he has repeatedly tried to initiate sex, when we don't have any condoms in the house. I went and bought some, initiated sex, things seemed better for a while. Ran out of condoms, he tried to initiate sex, I refused, he got upset and claimed I don't love him anymore....feels so juvenile. SO - I went to the doctor and will be going BACK on hormonal birth control next week....but I'm not telling him yet. I just can't deal with the "no, don't. I'll go for the vasectomy, I promise. I'll call this week" story again. Either way - using condoms AND the birth control pill is ideal for me, since I conceived my first child while taking birth control, and I see no reason to let him know about the hormonal BC in case he sees this as a free pass to not wear a condom. 

Obviously, because of the issues with birth control, we haven't been having sex regularly - maybe about 20 times in these last four months. Definitely not three times per week. And it's caused some contention on the few occasions he's tried to initiate, so I think he's feeling rejected. He just doesn't seem to get that I need to be totally protected from getting pregnant. My life requires it. He thinks timing is good enough protection....and all I can hear while we're having sex that way is babies crying. Not exactly arousing....so four months into the 6 month "trial period" I'd say we haven't done a great job on this one. 

2) Re-connecting Emotionally: I want us to have things in common and enjoy spending time together. So, I suggested bi-weekly date nights. Every second saturday we would have a date. He thought that was a great idea and added that he wanted us to take turns choosing what we do on each date. One week he would choose and plan it, the next week I would. The only requirement was the other person couldn't refuse - he wanted us to try to push outside our comfort zones. I loved the idea. The first Saturday rolled around and our babysitter cancelled (it was my night to choose the activity). So - we had to wing it. We stayed home, made the kids some dinner and put them to bed, and then we put on some music and painted (this sounds weird, but we REALLY needed this job done for weeks, and it was something we had never done together before - he usually took these tasks on alone). We ordered food in from our favorite Indian place, painted, listened to our favorite music, drank some wine. We danced, and talked. It was so laid back and comfortable and really nice - right in our own home. Two weeks later it was his turn to pick and he ended up stuck at work. The next one I picked we went for a dueling pianos show - again really nice. Then his turn came again and he FORGOT. Two days before I said "so! what's the plan for Saturday?" and he had completely forgotten all about it. We couldn't get a sitter together or anything that late notice so we stayed home - and then, that evening while I was getting the kids to bed he said "do you mind if I go out with some friends tonight?". "Yeah, whatever" was my basic response. And he skipped out the door and presumably had a great time. Coincidence that he forgot? Doubt it. SO - he hasn't planned or picked or put together ONE single date night. The last few times its been my turn I plan something, set up a babysitter, get everything together, and we go and have a nice time, and thats it. Never any mention of HIS turn or anything. I just feel like he's just totally apathetic - like he couldn't be bothered to go through the trouble of planning something for us to do. And that really hurts - it makes me feel like he doesn't value our relationship enough to want to put any effort into spending time with me, besides just showing up. 

3) Family Night: I proposed that on Sunday evenings we have dinner together and play board games or go outside - just have genuine time together to talk and know each other. WITH NO DEVICES. He so often just stares at his phone or ipad games instead of being present. He agreed to this plan, but hasn't gotten through a single Sunday evening without gaming DURING our time with our kids. I hate to say things in front of the kids - so I don't bother bringing it up in the moment. Honestly, at this point I feel like this is HIS loss. The kids and I are playing and having fun and enjoying each others company. He's missing out. Someday he'll look back and wonder where this time went. 

4) Communication strategies and Respect: His biggest consistent complaint is that I don't respect him...he says I speak to him rudely and consistently cut him down. I feel he disrespects me in so many ways as well - so we agreed that we would seriously work on our communication skills in IC. I've attended all of my bi-weekly sessions. He's been to one in the four months. I know that I'm incredibly blunt, I struggle to conceal my true emotions and I say whatever's on my mind. I'm sincerely working on this. I consider EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE before I say it (OMG conversations take forever!), I think about how it would make me feel if he said it to me, I think about how it might make HIM feel (since he and I are so different), and I try to think about whether I would ever say something like that to anyone else. When we have ANY discussion about anything he breaks down and claims I'm attacking him. (Example: yesterday we were discussing an important business decision. We have only two realistic options. I pitch both options and their pros and cons. He repeats all the cons of both back to me. I say "yes - neither choice is ideal. But we must make one. Do you have a preference? Is there one that is "less negative" for you? Or can you suggest an option that I haven't thought of?". His response: "I don't know! Why do you have to get so worked up and attack me? I'm simply trying to discuss this with you! It's important we make these decisions together!". I sit staring at him, dumbfounded. I say "yes, discussion includes receiving feedback from all parties, which is all I'm trying to do here". He says "I'm not saying that we can't choose either of those things. I'm just saying there are negatives to both!". "Yes....but we must still act. Do you have a preference?". He says "I don't know! I need some time to consider it". I think that's wise, but remind him we are limited to only a few days before we must decide. "Yeah, I'm not an idiot" as he leaves the room. Not once does he say "are you leaning towards one or the other?" or "is there one that makes sense to you?". Just I'll think about it and get back to you to inform you of my decision. My input simply isn't valid (one of the many ways I regularly feel disrespected). Not only does he claim I'm attacking him almost immediately, he disrespects me by not even considering that I may have input that matters. And all this AFTER i've worked on my communication skills so much - before this I would have immediately just said everything I was feeling in that moment and we would have spiraled into a huge fight. Now I pretend my feelings don't matter to avoid hurting his, and I STILL hurt his!

6) Going to bed together - I asked that he come to bed WITH me three nights per week (mostly thinking that these nights we could cuddle, etc. and then have sex...) instead of staying up so late to game or watch TV. He did this for one week. And is now right back to his old habits. I have serious issues sleeping with any light in our bedroom, but I suggested getting a TV in the room, hoping to motivate him to want to come to bed with me more often. I'll wear a sleep mask and ear plugs if necessary. He is receptive to this idea if we install a television. 

7) Daily time together - I requested that each day we TALK to each other about how we are feeling in general, with no distractions. Our relationship, life, the kids, anything we feel like talking about. I just want us to really KNOW each other again. Doesn't have to be long - 10 mins even. Just alone, no devices or TV or kids. One-on-one looking at each other. Over coffee in the morning or after the kids are in bed in the evening. I can see that this is really difficult for him - he struggles to express emotions verbally. So this quickly turned into me just talking about how MY day was, and him listening. And since he internalizes everything I say as somehow his fault or his responsibility he always tries to fix things, or gets offended like I'm saying somehow these things relate to him. So - we slowly stopped doing this, since it usually put us both on edge anyway. Which is sad - there are entire WEEKS where the only things we say to each other are business-related. 

8) my "stress" levels - his perception that I couldn't handle everything on my plate was a huge issue. In IC I mentioned this - but she stressed that since we work together on top of marriage and a family, it's important that I keep some things that are separate from all of that. Things that are just mine, like my work on the non-profit organization in our community. I enjoy it, it gives me a perceived self-worth outside of my marriage and our shared business. I did, however step down as secretary of the parent council at my kids' school, and I cut the kids down to one activity each. I also increased the frequency our cleaning lady comes to help me. These things seem to have helped so far, as I am less busy on a weekly basis. 

9) my betrayal not telling him about the miscarriage - I told him I understood if this caused him trust issues, and that I would do whatever it took to earn his trust back. I should never have kept that from him, and will certainly never make such a mistake again, regardless of the pain or sadness it may cause. He appreciated my words - and we did both cry and express a lot of hurt over the situation. I feel completely despicable....I so desperately DIDN'T want a baby, and then I miscarried. It feels like I wished it away. It feels so evil. Telling him made me afraid he would think I was evil, and I avoided that feeling. Selfishly. Wrongly. 

10) I requested that he take on some of the tasks at the house to help me out (ie. take out garbages, tidy the garage, make the bed when he wakes up later than me (daily), cleaning the deck/yard in summer), but his immediate response is he already has a full plate with work and there simply isn't time for those things. He said he would try. So far, he hasn't done any of these things one time.

This list is not all that impressive in terms of progress...

Last night it was my week again for date night. I took him to play pool, which is something we used to do often. There was a live band and it was an overall nice atmosphere, but he just was off from the beginning. There happened to be some people we knew there (including one of my exes and his wife, who lives in our community and we've always had an amicable relationship with - we dated in high school...not like it was really an overly meaningful relationship). He insisted on sitting with them, so H and I barely even spoke during dinner, etc. as he was being social with everyone else. When we went to play pool I was trying to be flirty etc. with him - I had a shorter dress on and made a joke about struggling to reach a shot with my dress being short. He said "I've played a thousand games of pool with young hot things in shorter dresses than that. You'll be fine". I tried to brush up against him, kiss him, etc - like in the old days. He just wasn't into it. Later, we were sitting at the table again with friends, talking about how we've changed since school (which is how we all knew one another), and I mentioned that he had barely changed since those days - he looks quite young and very similar to then. To which he said "you sure have. I mean, your body is back now, but just your face..." (I've recently lost 35 lbs again). I said "what does that mean?". "Your face...it just looks....used." I said "wow...thanks. I happen to like my face a lot." He said, "yeah, it's alright, but ten years of marriage, kids, husband, those things show, you know. It just looks used & abused". USED & ABUSED. Ha. I didn't even know what to say with all those people there. I just shut up and waited to get the hell out of there. While I was complimenting him on how he still looks so great, he's saying this to me - his wife - in public. I feel like he was either trying to make me feel like **** for some reason - or he just accidentally let his true feelings slip out. As we all went to leave there had been a lot of rain and I watched as all these other husbands held their wives by the arm or waist, since with their silly shoes on they could easily have slipped in the parking lot. I carefully picked my way through the parking lot so as not to fall, while H walked 10 paces ahead of me with a couple of other guys, laughing and joking about god knows what. When I was upset afterwards, at home, about being labeled as appearing Used & Abused, he claimed he couldn't figure out why...he said that all he was trying to say is we all age and life takes a toll on us. None of us look like we did in high school. According to him I had no reason to feel hurt or offended at all. I don't know a lot of women who'd be okay with being told that.....

Overall - we are in an interesting place. I just don't know what's next. I don't know if I can keep trying this. How long do you invest your heart and soul into something before you realize it just isn't working? I feel like 6 months is a long period of time to try. I've been saving as much money as I can, just in case. Whatever comes, money will certainly be a necessity. He regularly tells me I'm beautiful, etc. but his comments last night made me feel like that's definitely not what he actually thinks. And I don't want him to have to be trapped with someone he's not attracted to. Maybe that was just his way of saying "I don't want to be with you anymore". I KNOW he would prefer for me to make all the choices about leaving/divorce. This way he can be the victim. He can tell everyone I left him, I broke up our family, etc. and not be the bad guy. Maybe this is just him pushing me away in hopes I'll get fed up and leave. I just don't know. How far can I be pushed? That's something I'm sure I'll learn soon....in September I will sit down with him and the list, and discuss it with him. I can't imagine the next 2 months suddenly getting all that much better at this rate....


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Do yourself a favor and file for divorce now. It'll either shock him into action or he'll be relieved, and if that's the case you may as well get on with your life. 

Stop being his doormat. He's been pretty clear regarding where you fall on his priority list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

He is either immature, or is such a "nice guy" that he has no ability to communicate his resentment, which it sounds like he has in abundance. 

Either way, I tend to agree with the above post.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

A nice guy NEVER tells his wife that her face looks used and abused. No respect, love or care in him. NONE.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What it is, is, he married someone for fun. He expects you to HAVE FUN with him so he can live a continuous life filled with fun.

All of your 'adult' issues are, literally, 'a drag.' 

Walk away. Let him earn you back.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

My God! Your husband is an absolute putz. File for divorce now and mean it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Your list was painful to read. If a friend wrote that and you read it, you would tell her to get the h*ll away from this jerk.

Please read it with fresh eyes. You deserve far, far better than this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Another update: some small steps forward, more large steps back. 

Our six month "trial" period came to an end. When we sat down to discuss how we did, I voiced my concerns over all of the things he refused to do. He focused on the one thing he DID do - he had the vasectomy procedure. Like that one thing will fix all of it. No effort to plan a single date night (I eventually gave up too...just became painful to go out with someone who doesn't seem to be interested in being with me). He didn't go to a single counselling session. He STILL avoids coming to bed with me (I go to bed at 11 pm, get up at 5:30 to get myself and the kids going for each day, he comes to bed at 3am and gets up at 10 am). 

When I say "I feel like you dislike me. You just tolerate my existence and that is all you can bear. Please tell me - is this the case? I don't want you to waste your life with someone you can't stand", he says I'm being insecure and to stop talking so stupidly. When I tell him that I don't know if I can be the person he expects me to be, AND still be me, he says "that's your choice..." It's so passive I want to puke. 

Plus - a MAJOR issue I've had since we first moved in together is rearing its head often right now. He likes to go out with friends, to a bar, or often goes to his dad's (who likes to party also), to drink and play pool. Since the beginning of our relationship 12 years ago he will go out and just not come home. He will crash on someone's couch or whatever. I'm glad he doesn't drive. But I don't understand why he can't EVER only have 2 drinks and come home, or take a cab. The worst part is he NEVER calls me or texts. Nothing, despite me begging for over a decade to just touch base with me. So I know where he is and that he's ok. He just says "I lost track of time and I didn't want to call so late". EVERY SINGLE TIME. I've calmly said, multiple times, "please just text me if you're not going to come home, no matter the time". He says "this wouldn't be an issue if you just trusted me". I say "trust comes with accountability. If you were willing to openly communicate with me where you were and when you'd be home I would be able to more readily trust you." We have never had any infidelity during our relationship (to my knowledge), so he thinks that should just be proof enough that he'll never cheat. This past weekend he came into my home office on Friday night at 7:30 and said "if it's alright with you I'm going to meet up with my dad and some friends to see a band play at the bar tonight." "Sure, sounds nice. See you later". "Yep, see you later" he replies as he's leaving. Then I didn't receive a single call or text message until Saturday afternoon when he came home at 4pm! Almost 24 hours, and this is a usual span of time he is gone for, sometimes longer. I tried texting many times, with no response. He says "if you were that concerned why didn't you just call?" "Well I texted 9 times and didn't get a response? Calling doesn't seem much more likely to illicit one at that point!". 

This happens at least once, sometimes three or four times per month. He disappears after a night out and I'm expected to just be fine with it. And EVERY TIME I ask him "next time can you please contact me? I'm your wife and I deserve that respect." He says "I'll try, but I can't promise anything", and never does. This time he said the same, and I said "no - no more trying. I NEED you to do this for me. It's not hard. Care enough about how you make me feel to send me ONE damn message. You don't need to come home or anything. Just be accountable to me. Tell me where you are and when you'll be home. Simple." Again, he decides it's my fault because I don't trust him. I have never even once left all night without talking to him first. Hell, if I go for dinner with girlfriends I text him every couple hours just to touch base. I feel like that's basic marriage ettiquette. I went on a girls trip two years ago - and didn't text him on ONE of the nights so he says "when you were in Hawaii you didn't text one night and I wasn't all up in arms and mad that you didn't reach me!". Like its the same. Like on day 5 of my 10 day trip he's anticipating me to arrive home at a certain time? So bizarre. I said "when you say you're going to the bar, and the bar closes at 2 am, and you don't show up until 14 hours later, I'm supposed to just be fine with that!?! And think nothing of it???" He says it wouldn't bother him at all if I did it to him. Yeah right. I hate that I have to explain to my kids that he slept over at a friends in the mornings when they ask where he is. I hate that he'd rather crash on a nasty old sofa than come to bed with his wife. I hate that he puts the blame on me and my insecurity - if I just trusted him he wouldn't have to call me and this wouldn't be a problem. I hate that he tells me he knows tons of wives who are fine with their husbands doing this to them and don't say a word about it. 

So - since I was upset on the weekend with him I've received the silent treatment or very short responses to everything I say. 

I just feel like this is hopeless. I really need to file for divorce. The economy where we live is so bad right now, a job search will be tough. rentals in my kids' school neighbourhood are super expensive. I'm supposed to have surgery in January and need 6 weeks recovery time. No one will give me that at a new job. The rental property we own - value is sinking due to the poor economy, and we would probably make little if any money if we sell it and settle. Our business has had the worst year In a decade this year (damn economy again), so they can't afford to buy me out. I'm pretty much left with my couple thousand in the bank outside of those things....to start a whole new life from scratch. It's just not logical right now. 

I'm thinking about trying The 180. I don't know if there has been infidelity (honestly, that would make things so much easier - I could justifiably walk away with no qualms), but I think my husband simply can't deal with me as I am now, and we will need to be civil while I figure out my next move. In the mean time, while I focus on me, I can try to sock away more money and line up rentals, work, furnishings, a car. Focus entirely on me while I get my ducks in a row. I don't want to be this sad, angry, scared, hurt person anymore. It's not me. It's not who I saw myself becoming.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

I am really sorry to hear about your miscarriage and your husbands inability to take responsibility and grow up. 

You sound like a very smart and thoughtful woman. You also have amazing ability to allow your husband to get away with whatever he wants. Your six month trial really shows you the extent of your husband's inability to make an effort to work on your relationship. I don't know any woman that would put up with all the crap that your husband puts you though. You can't change him, so stop trying. 



> I'm thinking about trying The 180. I don't know if there has been infidelity (honestly, that would make things so much easier - I could justifiably walk away with no qualms), but I think my husband simply can't deal with me as I am now, and we will need to be civil while I figure out my next move. In the mean time, while I focus on me, I can try to sock away more money and line up rentals, work, furnishings, a car. Focus entirely on me while I get my ducks in a row. I don't want to be this sad, angry, scared, hurt person anymore. It's not me. It's not who I saw myself becoming.


This is the only way you are going to regain your sanity and be able to move on with your life. It is a hard decision to make but you have obviously thought about this. Do what you need to do for you. Work out your plan, save your money, then make your move. And if he doesn't like it, it's not like he will do anything about it. He really is missing out on a wonderful relationship. Good luck.


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## JoJoRider8 (Jun 26, 2014)

Oh boy, this is a hard read. I really feel for you. You have gone above and beyond with a tremendous amount of compromise, action and introspection to improve your marriage. And he has done nothing other than get a vasectomy which took him years to get BTW.

I disagree with you there is no infidelity. This man would cheat on you at the drop of the hat if the opportunity and desire came about. Which given his lifestyle I'm certain has. Why WOULDNT he cheat on you? He has no empathy, no respect, no ability to provide care or be a safe partner for you. Have you ever checked his phone or email history or FB messages etc? He sounds like a classic narcissist. I suspect he is totally fine staying married to you b/c you provide the stable home life and regular sex, and he gets whatever side fun he wants when he wants as well. Sorry, but if I had to put money on it, there is very little chance this man has never cheated on you. NOTHING about him points to honesty or integrity or faithfulness.

I agree you should file for divorce. He is not going to change and this isn't sustainable. You sound very successful and attractive and smart, and are still young. I think you will have a much better life without him. It will be hard of course, but you will get through it.


This man is just awful. So so rude and inconsiderate and selfish. He clearly is using you for the comforts of home and married man image, but refuses to actually participate in any sort of marriage on an emotional level, or even as a basic partner in love. He is using you. But like you said, the main thing is the inability to feel empathy. That is a narcissist and there is never any hope of a healthy relationship with one I'm afraid.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Thanks for the replies. It feels strangely bittersweet to have my feelings on all of this validated by perfect strangers. It's good to know that I'm not the crazy person he claims I am. It's hard to know that what I'm feeling is justified and my marriage is probably over. 

Today, for the first time ever, I checked his phone, emails, and FB messages. He was in the shower. His phone was just lying there. There was not a single thing that seemed off. There was one text from a number not in his contacts, but it was two quick messages about a set of tires he's selling, asking when the person could come view them and what the treads were like. No strange texts from anyone, no hidden email folders or damning emails. No FB messages that were incriminating at all - in fact his only FB messages are from me, his mom, and two of his close friends. I'm not sure what else to even look for, besides an additional cell phone, which I haven't seen at all. 

Regardless, I kind of just feel like it doesn't matter at this point. I'm done. 

My kids are spending the weekend with my parents, so I have told him I am going out with my girlfriends tonight. I will not come home - I will spend the night at my best friends home. I'm not worrying about communicating this to him, since he feels no need to talk to me about where he is. I need to get out of here for a day or so. Feel what it's like to be just me. Spend some time not feeling like the person I'm with can't even stand to be near me. Which is how I feel at home and work. All the time. I'm here, working hard for/with someone who just can't stand to be around me. It's very damaging to my self esteem. I feel pain and like I'm not good enough. I feel guilt that I'm forcing him to be with someone he can't stand. I feel angry that he can't just say "I hate you. I need this to be over." I feel sorry for my kids, that they're in all this. Like if maybe I could just be who H wants me to be this wouldn't be happening, and my kids wouldn't have to live this. I need some time to process all that, and settle my resolve to make this change happen finally. 

I'm so tired.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

All the nights out without any communications from him for hours/days is really not good. You have been too permissive. He has too many opportunities to cheat and has essentially admitted in not so many words that he flirts with women at the bars when you aren't there. Why wouldn't he do more.

There are other communications apps that can be used for discreet texting, sexting, etc. Whatsapp and others. I would check his phone for those. You might also check his gaming programs. Lots of late nights alone... There are infinite ways for affair partners to communicate through those as well. Do some more digging. 

If that is not successful in getting to the truth then I agree with LITS and FSJ that eventually you are going to have to bring the hammer (separation or D) to effectively motivate him to change.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Unfortunately when I talk divorce or separation he just says "fine. If that's what you want - break up our family. I won't stop you. our kids will grow up In a broken home just like I did, because you're too selfish to work this all out". And by working it out he means not ever having negative thoughts or feelings about him or our marriage, and just being a happy submissive wife who allows him to do whatever he pleases. He seems quite apathetic to the "threat". 

He wants ME to do the leaving and breaking up our family. So he looks like a victim, so our kids can think I did this to us. So our families don't find out the kind of man he really is. He wants me to be the bad guy who ruined all of our lives. He's been pushing me away for years, So he doesn't need to be accountable for all the things he's pulled, and all the hurt he's caused me. The stubborn side of me just wants that to backfire in his face. But I will be the one to suffer for it. I will spend my life wasted on someone who doesn't want me. 

It's all just so pathetic. How can I love someone who does all these things to me? It's completely irrational. 

More digging is possible but I will have to find the time to access these things without being familiar with any of them at all. I've never played a single video game in my life? 

And I just feel tired.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Cljb said:


> Unfortunately when I talk divorce or separation he just says "fine. If that's what you want - break up our family. I won't stop you. our kids will grow up In a broken home just like I did, because you're too selfish to work this all out". And by working it out he means not ever having negative thoughts or feelings about him or our marriage, and just being a happy submissive wife who allows him to do whatever he pleases. He seems quite apathetic to the "threat".
> 
> He wants ME to do the leaving and breaking up our family. So he looks like a victim, so our kids can think I did this to us. So our families don't find out the kind of man he really is. He wants me to be the bad guy who ruined all of our lives. He's been pushing me away for years, So he doesn't need to be accountable for all the things he's pulled, and all the hurt he's caused me. The stubborn side of me just wants that to backfire in his face. But I will be the one to suffer for it. I will spend my life wasted on someone who doesn't want me.
> 
> ...


The only acceptable response to him, when he is emotionally blackmailing you, is:

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Then walk away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do the 180. Stop interacting with him (he won't even notice). Stop having sex with him. Spend the next 9 months improving your work qualities so you can get a good job next Spring. There are tons of online courses you can be taking. 

You can't change him. Remember that.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

turnera said:


> Do the 180. Stop interacting with him (he won't even notice). Stop having sex with him. Spend the next 9 months improving your work qualities so you can get a good job next Spring. There are tons of online courses you can be taking.
> 
> You can't change him. Remember that.


Yes, I second this. 

OP-Work on something a little at a time. Get a job outside of the family business and start to put away some money. Start preparing yourself to leave. Your H is passive aggressive.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

I have my interior design degree, and kept my licensing testing valid since I graduated. We have been running our own tourism based business very successfully for 5 years, and I managed it for 4 years before we took over ownership. I am hopeful I could find decent work. But the economy where we live is really suffering right now. The unemployment rate has quadrupled in the last four months and jobs are not easy to come by right now. pair that with an incredibly expensive rental market and I am really extremely nervous. The idea of being a single mom is very scary to me. I really just need to overcome that fear and face it head on.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Yes, I second this.
> 
> OP-Work on something a little at a time. Get a job outside of the family business and start to put away some money. Start preparing yourself to leave. Your H is passive aggressive.


THIS ^^^^^ :iagree:

You are married to my STBXH. Don't be me. Don't wake up after another 12 years. He will not change because he doesn't think there is anything wrong with him. It is ALWAYS someone else's fault. The more I read, the more I could identify. Talk about triggers. My STBXH was fine with me until I starting asking & expecting more from him. Honestly, I was a doormat. He didn't love me or respect me and I'm pretty sure he didn't even like me. 

So, do the 180 and start planning your exit....NOW! It is only going to get worse and you will wake up after 20 plus years and hate yourself and him as well. Look up passive aggressive behavior. It was a personality disorder for a long time. Now it is lumped in with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. My STBXH is both. Please love & respect yourself enough to leave him. I know how you feel and what you are going through. You are not alone.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> The only acceptable response to him, when he is emotionally blackmailing you, is:
> 
> "I'm sorry you feel that way."
> 
> Then walk away.


Or, my personal favorite.. "OK" and walk away. Anything he says....OK....

Oh and editing to add...him not getting a vasectomy when a pregnancy would be life threatening to you has to be THE most selfish thing I have ever heard someone do.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

You describe him exactly. It is NEVER his fault. He is always the victim. Everyone is doing every thing TO HIM. He honestly thinks it all has nothing to do with him - he believes I just choose to make all things difficult - for fun? For what? That's so strange to me. I just think it is inherently impossible to change that about him. He would never seek to repair this behaviour since he doesn't believe he is wrong or hurting anyone. And he doesn't consider the feelings of ANYONE besides himself. Ever. How does anyone get to be happy with someone like that?

Honestly - if anyone has had a positive marriage experience with a narcissist I'd love to hear about it. How can someone who doesn't give a single **** about anyone else's feelings truly succeed in a relationship with anyone? When their inherent narcissistic nature means they are never wrong and don't need to be accountable to their spouse? I simply don't get it. 

I think taking 6-12 months to make calculated movements with a divorce is my only option. If I get a job outside of our business he will know I'm leaving and he'll likely boot me out ASAP, before I'm ready. We do have our own separate money, so I'm able to save $800-$1000 per month. In a year I would have 10-12K to get out with at least, plus my 3K I have now. I will need a car (my current is a company car), home, furnishings, full time job. Basically a whole new life. That's going to take some work to orchestrate without him knowing. I would also like some time to sit down with a lawyer to discuss what I'm "owed" for my shares in the business, our rental and vacation properties, and our home. Maybe I have more money than I think?

Plus there's the fact i would have to live and work daily with this person for another year. Can I? How do I? I can't wrap my brain around how that would be? Do I just pretend we are fine to all of our friends, family and staff? It feels so fake. Has anyone done this? I just can't even imagine it.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

You need to be prepared that when you start the 180, he may move out first. My STBXH moved in with another woman and it's ALL my fault. He will need his payoff and if he isn't getting it from you, he will find someone who will. I would suggest getting individual counseling so you will not make the same mistakes again. I'll be in IC for the rest of my life after 20 plus years. Like you, there were good times but boy they seem so long ago.

ETA: My STBXH told me my feelings were wrong. So, like you I just stopped talking about them.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How would he boot you out? Does he own the house?

And no, it's almost impossible to have a decent marriage with a narcissist. How could you? It will NEVER be about you.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

The house we live in is his childhood home. It is on the same property as our business. We live and work there together. His family built the business decades ago and we inherited it in 2011. I have worked there, in management, since 2007. It's simply not possible that he would move out. It is his. Technically I own 35% of the business in my own name. If I leave he would need to buy me out or continue issuing me dividends. But the idea that i would stay and he would go is not possible. 

I know that most of the reason he probably doesn't want me to leave is because of the business. I'm efficient, organized, devoted to its success, and far less expensive than someone else who would do all that I do. I work 60-80 hours per week, on a base salary. I'm fairly irreplaceable there. But I've certainly put myself in a rough spot....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Check with a lawyer. If you inherited it while you were married, it may count as community property and he could not kick you out.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Great........but sexual arousal is an all day process for women, like it or not, men.


True that - even when it looks spontaneous (eg in night club) it's a release looked forward to in a positive environment after a day.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

for the relationship to survive it is going to need two people.

I can translate for you about why he felt the way he did when you had the first child, but that's got to be water under the bridge for you both.

Sounds like he's hitting the start of midlife crisis time. When he realises he's done a lot of working and now looking for some kind of emotional revival.
...and he's someone who's never had to be emotionally sensible.

In a lot of ways, your options for repairing things are limited. He needs to get a bit educated on the marriage and relationship, so he's got some way to understand what is going on. Both with himself and how humans work. He wouldn't take on a college kid without training them so he needs to get to grips about relationship assessment.

You can only give him fun, if you're freed up to have fun. And he's going to have to develop some of his own interests (that you respect) outside of obsessing on you to satisfy all of his needs - for you to be someone he can enjoy and find as fun, you have to have an existence beyond his sex needs and family obligations. So he needs to be able to sit down and listen to you and what you need - and you're going to have to be a bit selfish and really question what your real needs are - and parting with a bit of coin to clean house, get meals prepped, that you get to keep control of in your own space, is got to be first on that list.

Neither of you are going to be much happier if you housebreak him to doing the laundry, likewise take a good look at the business(es) and see how much you really need from them and how much life that leaves you. He's getting to the point in his life where things like buying penis cars starts to sound like a good idea, and you foolish women are going to see him as a daddy substitute. So having some coin and time to do things together is important. Likewise it is a good time for him to start shaping up with gym work and/or yoga.
Things is if you don't both fix things...even if you work through the next 5-10 years, YOU are going to be walking out on him at the end of that. So either you both start being on the level, or you'll both pay the price.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Cljb said:


> I know that most of the reason he probably doesn't want me to leave is because of the business. I'm efficient, organized, devoted to its success, and far less expensive than someone else who would do all that I do. I work 60-80 hours per week, on a base salary. I'm fairly irreplaceable there.


So if you suffered a car accident or died they'd just wrap the whole business up?

No-one is irreplaceable. Not in a proper business. Hard to replace certainly, even might need 2 or 3 (they needed 2.5 on my last employment to replace me).
But if you're seriously that much of a lynch pin, then that's not a good sign for the business or for your life - sure it's an ego buzz for you, being so important and all, but since it's probably one of only a few place which you draw validation for your life, it doesn't sound like it makes you a fun person to be with (short of customer functions).


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Cljb said:


> The house we live in is his childhood home. It is on the same property as our business. We live and work there together. His family built the business decades ago and we inherited it in 2011. I have worked there, in management, since 2007. It's simply not possible that he would move out. It is his. Technically I own 35% of the business in my own name. If I leave he would need to buy me out or continue issuing me dividends. But the idea that i would stay and he would go is not possible.
> 
> I know that most of the reason he probably doesn't want me to leave is because of the business. I'm efficient, organized, devoted to its success, and far less expensive than someone else who would do all that I do. I work 60-80 hours per week, on a base salary. I'm fairly irreplaceable there. But I've certainly put myself in a rough spot....


Legally, you're probably entitled to half of everything. If it makes sense that he take over the assets, then he would need to pay you half the value of everything in cash when you go.

See a lawyer soon to find out what your rights are, and maybe a financial planner or accountant specializing in divorce, and figure out what your next best steps are to protect yourself. Even if that's a long term exit plan, you need to set off in the right direction.

If my trail of 'likes' didn't speak loudly enough, I agree with the others that this guy is a narcissist who is never going to grow up and change. What he's doing to you is called gaslighting and it's abuse. When he tells you that breaking up the kids' home is going to be All Your Fault, that's just classic manipulation technique to get you to stay. He'd rather emotionally blackmail you than admit that he might need to examine himself and change things.

You've given your marriage a truly heroic and valiant effort, and it's okay to give up. Marriage is not like any other group project, where it can succeed based on the work of the other members even if one person isn't pulling their weight. It needs two committed people and you just don't have that.

Your kids deserve to learn that disrespectful behaviour like their father's is not what they should grow up emulating.

Good luck.


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## Beeloni (Aug 29, 2016)

I have to agree with the others and especially what Hopeful Cynic said here:



Hopeful Cynic said:


> If my trail of 'likes' didn't speak loudly enough, I agree with the others that this guy is a narcissist who is never going to grow up and change. What he's doing to you is called gaslighting and it's abuse. When he tells you that breaking up the kids' home is going to be All Your Fault, that's just classic manipulation technique to get you to stay. He'd rather emotionally blackmail you than admit that he might need to examine himself and change things.


My daughter's father is also a narcissist. Everything was everyone else's fault and he was always the victim. He would try to twist it all on me and how he tried to give me everything but I was never happy and my feelings weren't valid. He was different from your husband in that he had addiction issues and rarely held a steady job, but he would often go out all night and try to blame me for being upset about it. When I saw the woman in his van after one of these nights (he was stupid enough to bring her by our place) he tried to deny it all STILL. I was crazy and jealous in his mind. 

We broke up when our daughter turned 1 year old. He is STILL the same - 25 years later. Everything bad that has happened is other people's fault and he has emotionally destroyed his relationships with his current gf and our daughter. 

I hope that you are able to get yourself and your kids into a secure situation financially. It sounds like you are falling or have fallen out of love (understandable) and are ready for the next part of your life. It will be one of the toughest things you ever do but it doesn't sound like he will ever make an attempt to change. Be ready for him to blame EVERYTHING on you and to even speak badly about you to your kids. It will sting but remember that your kids are observant and smart. My daughter now refuses to let her dad bash me anymore. I never needed to bad mouth him. She saw the truth and came to her own decisions. You will have to talk to them about it but just be honest. 

You seem like a very intelligent, well organized and thoughtful person. I am confident that you will do well even with the financial issues in your area.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My H is one of those 'it's always someone else's fault' people. He's negative about everything, and he is also a catastrophizer. If he can't find his keys, it's the end of the world. If he's going to be late, they'll fire him, kill him, whatever. And he's always late.

I tried really hard to keep DD26 from growing up to be negative like him and, for the most part, she didn't. But she did grow up to be just like him as far as catastrophizing. H and I just have shorthand talk: "DD's having a meltdown" - and we know that I'll be busy for an hour or two, trying to calm her down. She even recognizes it, knows that she gets it from him, but once it comes on, there's no stopping it. 

So don't fool yourself - your kids WILL turn out like the people they grow up with.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

So, I stayed out all night on Friday. I didn't call or answer his texts. I just stayed out at my friends, drank wine and played board games with my girlfriends. My kids were at my parents, so I knew that they wouldn't need to get up in the morning and find me not there. He texted several times asking where I was, but never called, and stopped texting around 4 am. When I got home the next day at 9:00 am he just pretended like it never happened. He didn't ask me where I was or what I was doing, or if I had fun. Just pretended like I never left. I can't really figure out what his game is? Trying to prove that he would trust me in this position when I don't trust him? Or what?

That whole next day he was sweet and loving and tried to initiate sex. I refused, and he didn't get upset at all, and now he's been fine the last few days. We had a lovely weekend as a family, enjoying a hike and some bike riding, and a nice BBQ last night.

Then, today, he came to me and said he's going to re-start his therapy/counseling regimen. He knows my counseling day is Monday's, and he knew I was headed there this afternoon, for my session when he told me. I just told him "that's good. I'm glad you're doing that for yourself." He said "and I think we should see the marriage counselor again. For as long as it takes". I just said "I'm focusing on me right now. You need to do the same." And I left. I don't know if I handled that well at all....

In counseling today we talked a lot about my strengths and weaknesses and I realized he's such a weakness for me. He knows me SO WELL - he can just play me. He can be so wonderful for a few days or a week and I'm just so happy with feeling like "this is how our family could be all the time!". And I have this desperate feeling of love for him. I feel like I need him - which is SO IRRATIONAL to me, since the logical side of my brain knows I DO NOT. I feel like He is consciously doing this. And I'm constantly unable to figure him out. Like with me going out the other night. I can't figure out what his thought process is. He can completely manipulate me and I just feel like a crazy dope who can't read this person I'm supposed to know better than anyone else on earth.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cljb said:


> So, I stayed out all night on Friday. I didn't call or answer his texts. I just stayed out at my friends, drank wine and played board games with my girlfriends. My kids were at my parents, so I knew that they wouldn't need to get up in the morning and find me not there. He texted several times asking where I was, but never called, and stopped texting around 4 am. When I got home the next day at 9:00 am he just pretended like it never happened. He didn't ask me where I was or what I was doing, or if I had fun. Just pretended like I never left. I can't really figure out what his game is? Trying to prove that he would trust me in this position when I don't trust him? Or what?
> 
> That whole next day he was sweet and loving and tried to initiate sex. I refused, and he didn't get upset at all, and now he's been fine the last few days. We had a lovely weekend as a family, enjoying a hike and some bike riding, and a nice BBQ last night.
> 
> ...


OMG, you did SO good! That was perfect. 

And it's basic psychology. He takes you for granted for as long as you let him. But when you STOP letting him take you for granted, when you start living like a human being with real rights and real value, guess what? He NOTICES! And suddenly, you are all he cares about! Gag me.

Keep on keeping on. Take care of yourself. Do NOT give him anything at this point. Focus on YOU. Let him SEE you focusing on you. THAT is how he will learn and grow and become a better partner.


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## Cljb (Mar 17, 2016)

Doing well lately. He's been acting relaxed and happy and comfortable. Very sweet. I'm just so bewildered. I'm going to therapy. He's seen his therapist three times in two weeks. Outside of the basic conversation required by life with a room mate and co-parent, I make no effort to indulge in conversation or activities together. 

I'm focused on socking away money, going to the gym and hot yoga and dialling in my clean eating plan, and of course, my kids. I'm also reaching out to some old friends in an attempt to have some kind of social life. I see a light at the end of this tunnel.

BUT -he had his 3 month vasectomy post-op and he's "cleared". So he came home and told me I could go off any birth control, we were in the clear. I agreed....but I won't actually be doing that. But I am struggling a bit with guilt that he had this procedure because I can't have kids and now I want to leave him? Good thing that ****s reversible ?


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