# Another 'smut vrs porn' and what's Ok and what's not



## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

This might just a bitter and skewed opinion because of my current situation but I feel literary erotica can be worse then your standard video porn.
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My long story, sorry
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Married, been with her for almost 20years and our sex life has been terrible for the past 15years (my view). Except for the very beginning It’s been a continuous cycle of sex a few times a month (yes that’s the high point ) to non-existent and then a discussion or fight would occur then things would change for a short while and return. I’ve tired many things to get her interested over the years as I’ve stated in other posts but nothing seems to work. It wasn’t like when we did have sex I wasn’t looking after her needs, I certainly wasn’t being selfish. This constant rejection has done a number on my self esteem and turning to porn for release has only made that worse. Anyone else find porn use makes them feel like less of a man? Adding to this self depreciating circle of mine, when I do watch porn I spend a significant amount of time looking at the guy, wishing I was tall, muscular, hung like a horse and most of all desired by a woman. I find it strange that its not the sex act itself I crave so much, it’s the feeling of being wanted. I finally had enough a few years ago and told my wife I was sick of being rejected and that she would have to initiate sex if she wanted it, that backfired because we didn’t have sex for a year! Since then we on average have sex about once a month or less until three months ago. I know she loves me and that she is not having an affair so I just assumed my wife had a low sex drive. 

Three months ago when I noticed my wife had been snooping on the computer and was watching some of the porn I had. Figure turn around is fair game so took a look at her history on the computer, I was surprised what I found. My wife must spend hours a day reading fanfiction online that is much more explicit then anything I’ve ever watched. Not only is she reading hundreds of these amateur written stories about celebrities ( literary erotica ) she likes but watching hundreds of youtube clips with these same men in them as well!

Now reading a romance novel, having a liking for a particular celebrity is normal. She has every Ben Afleck movie there is, watches her soap, Glee, Criminal Minds, One tree hill, Smallville and a few others and obviously has a thing for some of the male characters. It all seemed a little childish but nothing to worry about until I started looking into her history. These fanfic stories are all about these same 5 or 6 guys, very explicit and most of the text is the sex scenes not character building story lines. So with these fantasy guys, she watches their shows, follows them on twitter, reads magazine articles about them, TMZ, talk shows they are on, re watches shows she has already seen then searches them out on youtube and reads fan generated sex stories about them! Am I loosing my mind or is this not wrong and almost like an EA? It's not an EA I know, I'm sure I'm just being overly jealous but it hurts and kills my self esteem anyway. 

She is so focused on these guys and not just the characters, their personal lives as well. I would hesitate to call it an obsession as I don't know if she needs to do this or it's just something she enjoys. 

What the hell to do now? Over the years we have had so many fights or discussions about our lack of intimacy and things temporarily change, I try new things and it falls off again. How can I not come to the conclusion she just isn't attracted to me and she is just intimate with me out of obligation?

I DO NOT have the self confidence to do as another poster did and try and 'act out', pretend to be, role play one of her fantasy characters, I just can't do that. Find it strange that others here think it's ok to think of others while being with their spouse, that's just not me. 

It's been three months and I'm trying the 180 as suggested on here but little has changed. She has noticed a little but nothing has changed. 

Currently setting up IC for myself and I know I need to confront her as I'm getting bitter and don't have any desire to be with her since I found all this online smut. Would prefer to work it out but how am I ever to believe she wants me and not just doing it out off obligation after all this? Thinking about Divorce a lot but with the way the laws are that means I essentially loose my kids except every second weekend and one night a week, this is unacceptable to me. 

As for me doing more to get her interested I already feel unappreciated. She is a SAHM, and I work minimum 50-60h a week to make ends meet. We have a second car just for her convenience yet school is in walking distance. She is a good Mom but an inactive one. Always ask her about her day, kiss her when I leave, I love yous, do little things for her and generally show affection, (stopped that for the 180). Since all this I'm finding things that never bothered me before are issues now like her weight gain and lazy habits. 

.... I do not understand why people think picture/movie porn that men normally look at is some how so much worse than a written story. Porn is just visual, pictures of people that you have no connection with other then the superficial. Literary erotica is getting to know a characters personality, humor, strengths, detailed body description and then how they *uck. With my wife its all about real people (yes unattainable celebrities) but very specific people, not just a random character in a story. She craves every detail about them, then gets off on a fantasy with them. 

If I sought out a particular porn star, followed them and commented on twitter/facebook, talked to friends about her, went to her book signings, her concerts, read articles, watch interview and show about her then watched her porn to get off is this not much more personal then just searching random pics of women to jerk off too?? 

I'm rambling and typing on a phone is difficult, just got home from night shift and need sleep. Still looking for ways to deal with this, am I just overly jealous of innocent fantasy?

Help!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I will only comment on the visual vs mental stimulation of these types. I always thought smut was hardcore, violent porn? But anyways, I compare these things to books vs movies. I love reading, I love reading books that stimulate me mentally. If I'm reading a Stephen King book (It, Pet Semetary, etc) I can imagine what the characters look like, I love that about books. I don't have to rely on Hollywood portrayal of who this or that person is. I don't care for many of the Stephen King movies, so I prefer the books. Just an example.

I don't see Leonardo DiCaprio or Julianne Moore, and I enjoy that. When I went through my porn phase a few years ago, I would read Literotica, because it stimulated me mentally, I didn't see any of the stupid porn people (especially the disgusting men they usually star in them, just because they have huge penises, like Ron Jeremy) and I don't have to turn off the sound, which is what I do if I watch porn.

Most porn is aimed at men, by men, so there is sometimes very little visual stimulation for women who like to look at sexy men. Most porn is filled with women that will never look like an everyday woman, so your looking at young, lusty, sexy women. Maybe your wife likes to imagine young, sexy, hunky men without looking at the young chicks. If your wife is one of those women who is stimulated mentally, visual porn will most likely hold no interest for her, so then, what would be the point in watching something that doesn't turn you on? That is the point of porn, right?

Maybe it damages her self-esteem when she knows your viewing women who are younger or prettier than she is. I don't know, that's only something she could answer.

Anyways, I don't think there is a difference in it as to better or worse than one or the other. I think the damage that it causes is when one person views it more than being intimate with their spouse. I also think checking her history and seeing what kind of porn she is viewing is more damaging to your self esteem. If she's not contacting any of these people, you should probably just stop driving yourself mad. Sit her down and both of you make boundaries. Though it would be really unfair if you told her to stop viewing her porn, but you continue to look at yours. If you want her to stop, you should expect to stop as well. What's fair is fair.

Hope that makes sense and I wish you luck. Self esteem issues really suck and I hope you and your wife can work something out that is healthy for you both.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Well 2 things jump out at me from your post.

First. Never,ever,ever fight or whine about lack of sex. That is probably the biggest turn-off for anybody. 

Second. You try to solve a lack of sex, by withholding sex. That sort of seems counterproductive.

Start here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Stop asking for sex, stop whining about lack of sex. Initiate the sex, man it up and take the lead. Stop thinking that because you "provide", you are "owed". That train is off the tracks. 

Read Married Man's Sex Life. Athol Kay speaks to men, like a man, about how to act like a desirable man. Good stuff.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Tubes said:


> Married, been with her for almost 20years and our sex life has been terrible for the past 15years (my view). Except for the very beginning It’s been a continuous cycle of sex a few times a month (yes that’s the high point ) to non-existent and then a discussion or fight would occur then things would change for a short while and return. ... Since then we on average have sex about once a month or less until three months ago. I know she loves me and that she is not having an affair so I just assumed my wife had a low sex drive.


Don't just dismiss an affair. You should certainly keep your eyes open to signs of an affair, which it sounds like you're doing. So I'll assume she's been faithful.



Tubes said:


> What the hell to do now? Over the years we have had so many fights or discussions about our lack of intimacy and things temporarily change, I try new things and it falls off again. How can I not come to the conclusion she just isn't attracted to me and she is just intimate with me out of obligation?


That's exactly the conclusion that you should draw. She's not having sex with you because she's not that into you. In order to get enthusiastic sex with her, you have to pull her interest.



Tubes said:


> It's been three months and I'm trying the 180 as suggested on here but little has changed. She has noticed a little but nothing has changed.


Are you just not catering to her, or are you improving yourself. If you simply stop catering to her, she will probably notice, be mildly inconvenienced, and change nothing. If you're improving yourself, she will certainly notice and she just might become more interested in sex.



Tubes said:


> I'm rambling and typing on a phone is difficult, just got home from night shift and need sleep. Still looking for ways to deal with this, am I just overly jealous of innocent fantasy?


If I were you, I would be encouraged by your wife's interest in sexual fantasy. If your wife simply had no sex drive for anyone, then, unless doctors can find a physical reason, there's nothing you can do. You either accept a sexless marriage, or you divorce, which you want to avoid at all costs. The fact that she's lusting after celebrities is good for two reasons. First, she is exhibiting a sex drive. So it may be possible to focus her drive on you. Second, she's lusting after unattainable celebrities rather than your neighbor. Neighbors are attainable. You have to worry about neighbors, or friends, or coworkers, etc. Your wife doesn't expect you to compete with Ben Affleck. She's just looking for a release, same as you.

Go to Married Man Sex Life for a lot of great advice on your exact problem.

Good luck.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

What does your wife do? If she spends hours per day doing this I'll assume that she doesn't work. Is she a SAHM? If so, she's obviously not spending her time productively at home, either.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi tubes ~

I have a feeling that you and your wife are actually very similar - in that you are both using some kind of artificial means (fantasy) to try and fill the void you have inside. You may both be feeling like you simply want someone to desire and love you, but don't quite know how to go about doing that.

I think that additional discussions/fights are likely counter-productive at this point. Instead, there simply needs to be action - and by that I mean that you should be taking action to start becoming the best kind of man that you can. And you should be doing it for yourself. If your wife likes that new and improved you, then she will jump on board for the journey.

But, it will start in yourself. Deciding that YOU are a worthwhile individual, and working everyday to become the best version of you that you can be (yah - I really love that slogan "Be ALL that YOU can BE!"

You've been given some great sources to start the process. Wishing you success on starting that journey - it takes but a single step to start it.

Best wishes.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> I finally had enough a few years ago and told my wife I was sick of being rejected and that she would have to initiate sex if she wanted it, that backfired because we didn’t have sex for a year!


:rofl:
Has this ever worked?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Tubes said:


> ...Porn is just visual, pictures of people that you have no connection with other then the superficial. Literary erotica is getting to know a characters personality, humor, strengths, detailed body description...


A sexually explicit story is pornography in the purest sense of the word inasmuch as the word was originally coined to describe written material. The word is a fusion of the feminine noun, *πορνη* (prostitute) and the infinitive, *γραφειν* (To write) and it was coined long before the invention of the camera to describe a sexually explicit story or drawing. 

Sexually explicit written material is not "Sort of like porn" or "The equivalent of porn" or "Emotional porn" or "Kinda porn for women" or any other equivocal descriptor that one can dream up.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

The question is, is she pleasuring herself while she's reading these stories? If so it could be that she has issues with intimacy and real sex. It's like a lot of men who will use porn alone and refuse real sex. They can't handle the intimacy. It could be that she has some sexual hang ups or issues with her body she needs to work through. 
If I were you I would ask her about it. Try to start a neutral conversation about it and see if you can turn it into learning more about what turns her on and if you can maybe take her fantasies into the bedroom or read those stories together. 
Good luck though because I think she might at first feel like you were spying on her even though she did the same to
you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

This debate has always irritated me. 

Particularly on sexual issues most people seem unable to distinguish between a personal preference and a moral choice. I suppose it comes from an underlying discomfort with sex in general. As in "I may like this aspect of sex....but I am not so evil, corrupt, immoral, "****ty" etc. to like that aspect of sex"


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> If I'm reading a Stephen King book (It, Pet Semetary, etc) I can imagine what the characters look like, I love that about books. I don't have to rely on Hollywood portrayal of who this or that person is. I don't care for many of the Stephen King movies, so I prefer the books. Just an example.
> 
> I don't see Leonardo DiCaprio or Julianne Moore, and I enjoy that. When I went through my porn phase a few years ago, I would read Literotica, because it stimulated me mentally . .


I understand this; the difference is my wife doesn’t just read a random story, with a random character she can imagine. Her focus is a few select celebrities (not just the characters they play) and follow every aspect of their lives as well, not just interested in some imaginary character in a book.

Let me put it this way, I can imagine when reading erotica a women that has eyes like my wife’s, a face like the women at the grocery store, body like the secretary at work and voice like a town councillor ect. and this person is just my imagination right? What if I just imagined the councillor to get excited? What if I read all the articles she wrote, sat in town meetings when she was there, looked at youtube vids of her speaking, followed her on twitter/Facebook, then read explicit erotic stories some other guy in town writes about her, does this sound OK to you? The councillor is a public figure just like a celebrity and just as unattainable to me as the celebrity is to my wife. Don’t know, but I felt creepy just writing that.



ScaredandUnsure said:


> turn off the sound, which is what I do if I watch porn.


Ha Ha, When I do watch porn I do the same thing



ScaredandUnsure said:


> Maybe it damages her self-esteem when she knows your viewing women who are younger or prettier than she is. I don't know, that's only something she could answer.
> 
> I also think checking her history and seeing what kind of porn she is viewing is more damaging to your self esteem.


Her reading about “younger, more handsome men” in erotic stories while not wanting me at all certainly hurts my self esteem. 



ScaredandUnsure said:


> it would be really unfair if you told her to stop viewing her porn, but you continue to look at yours. If you want her to stop, you should expect to stop as well. What's fair is fair.


Well, I stopped about a month ago but as I said before, I turn to porn because my wife constantly rejected me and never initiated. My wife had an able and willing partner and chooses her porn instead. I also said that I don’t have a problem with her having her porn, just not at this level of focus and intensity especially when we don’t have a sex life.


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> That's exactly the conclusion that you should draw. She's not having sex with you because she's not that into you. In order to get enthusiastic sex with her, you have to pull her interest.
> 
> Are you just not catering to her, or are you improving yourself. If you simply stop catering to her, she will probably notice, be mildly inconvenienced, and change nothing. If you're improving yourself, she will certainly notice and she just might become more interested in sex. .


She has noticed I’m not catering to her but isn’t reacting. As for improving myself, any suggestions? I got some new clothes for myself, watching my diet, starting individual counselling next week. I need to loose some weight, and I’m going to work on that (20lbs over ideal). I try and come home happy. Being more focused on my kids (not for my wife, for my relationship with them) as they always make me happy.



PHTlump said:


> Your wife doesn't expect you to compete with Ben Affleck. She's just looking for a release, same as you.


LOL, it’s not Ben anymore, and how would you know this as I think the stories she reads for hours sets me up for failure in her eyes? Everyone suggests I do more, help at home more, improve myself, man up and all that. Sure I’m far from perfect as well as unattractive and shy but can improve, but what about her? It feels like an 80-20 split in effort for our relationship and I’m expected to do more?


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> Well 2 things jump out at me from your post.
> 
> First. Never,ever,ever fight or whine about lack of sex. That is probably the biggest turn-off for anybody.
> 
> ...


When I try and communicate my issues with our sex life it ends up into a fight so what the heck do I do, just sit back and hope? 
Off the tracks! I would never think my wife owed me sex because I “provide”. I do feel though that the role and responsibility of providing is minimized on here. I think the effort I show in providing should be replicated in her work at home and right now she spends a great deal of it watching/reading her porn..


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

MSP said:


> What does your wife do? If she spends hours per day doing this I'll assume that she doesn't work. Is she a SAHM? If so, she's obviously not spending her time productively at home, either.


Yes and yes,


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> You try to solve a lack of sex, by withholding sex. That sort of seems counterproductive.
> .


Ya, that would never work as she doesn’t want me anyway. I’m not withholding sex, I just stopped initiating it. When the rejection rate is 99% you tend to give up.


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi tubes ~
> 
> I have a feeling that you and your wife are actually very similar - in that you are both using some kind of artificial means (fantasy) to try and fill the void you have inside. You may both be feeling like you simply want someone to desire and love you, but don't quite know how to go about doing that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words.

No discussions or fights about sex in the past year. We may be both turning to ‘porn’ to get off or fill the void ( I stopped about a month ago ) but we are in different positions. I’m married to a women that rejects me sexually, not interested in me so I turn to an occasional 10min of porn to get off. She is married to a man that wants her but is not interested and spends hours a day with her porn.


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> see if you can turn it into learning more about what turns her on and if you can maybe take her fantasies into the bedroom or read those stories together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From reading her stories, she is turned on by tall men who have highly important jobs, rich, playboys, built like a tank and hung like a horse, plus they know exactly what women are thinking. I’m a 5’8” electrician, how should I proceed? Take over a company as CEO, visit a plastic surgeon for height and length, become a mind reader? 

Sorry, it’s late and I’m in a bad mood. I do appreciate the feedback 

All the best


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Tubes said:


> Thanks for the kind words.
> 
> No discussions or fights about sex in the past year. We may be both turning to ‘porn’ to get off or fill the void ( I stopped about a month ago ) but we are in different positions. *I’m married to a women that rejects me sexually, not interested in me *so I turn to an occasional 10min of porn to get off. She is married to a man that wants her but is not interested and spends hours a day with her porn.


Hi tubes ~

I know that it's easy to get discouraged.

BUT, look to the sign of encouragement there is here - your wife is definitely sexual and has those feelings. Half the battle is won right there.

The half that needs to be worked on, is to get her to turn those feelings toward YOU and not to her fantasy. And you don't have to be a bloke that makes a jillion dollars, has ripped abs, and a high-power job. You just need to be the best version of you that you can be, show up everyday with your game on high. Study the blokes that she is fantasizing over - don't look at the superficial stuff - look at the emotional stuff - look at their ACTIONS and how that impacts her emotion.

Go back to PHTlump's original post in this thread and start reading the blog link that he provided at the end. It may help to give you some inspiration and direction.

You can take action right now, so that things don't continue to 'go down the tubes' (sorry - I couldn't help saying that based upon your user name  )

Best wishes.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

"From reading her stories, she is turned on by tall men who have highly important jobs, rich, playboys, built like a tank and hung like a horse, plus they know exactly what women are thinking. I’m a 5’8” electrician, how should I proceed? Take over a company as CEO, visit a plastic surgeon for height and length, become a mind reader?"

She could say something similar by watching porn, that you're turned on by stick thin 18 year olds who are willing to have sex at the drop of a hat, have fake boobs, fake tans, fake teeth, fake nails and do whatever the man wants no matter how humiliating it is. How can she compete with that? 

The point of porn and erotica isn't really the actual people in it, it's the fantasy, it's being able to choose exactly what you want to watch or read and not having to deal with the reality of the wants and needs of another person. 
Either way it's ok in limited quantities but when people use it to avoid intimacy or it takes the place of real intimacy. I don't know that it's that she isn't attracted to you, she seems like she maybe has control issues or like she doesn't know how to share her sexuality with you.
I don't think it's about those actual men as compared to you. Because she would probably have the same problem with Ben Affleck. If she's not comfortable with her own sexuality and she can't deal with a real man, it doesn't matter who she's with. In fact I would bet in reality she'd be pretty disappointed with a man like that if she had him. Those guys are jerks, they are very demanding and full of themselves. I bet on some level she has to know that.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Tubes said:


> She has noticed I’m not catering to her but isn’t reacting. As for improving myself, any suggestions? I got some new clothes for myself, watching my diet, starting individual counselling next week. I need to loose some weight, and I’m going to work on that (20lbs over ideal). I try and come home happy. Being more focused on my kids (not for my wife, for my relationship with them) as they always make me happy.


That's exactly it. Get into the gym. Lose that weight. Add some muscle mass. Dress better. Be happier. Take the kids out to do something fun on the weekends. If your wife wants to come, fine. If not, it's daddy time. Get into an interesting hobby (that women would find interesting - think mountain biking, not video gaming). The goal is to be the best version of you that you can be.



Tubes said:


> LOL, it’s not Ben anymore, and how would you know this as I think the stories she reads for hours sets me up for failure in her eyes?


If your wife actually expects you to be a secret agent, or a pirate, or a billionaire, then she's delusional. Does she strike you as delusional, in general? If so, then she needs some real help. But I'm assuming she's an average housewife who's lost interest in her husband.

You've probably just gone too far over to the beta side. She's not into beta. She wants her alpha hubby back. Since there's not an alpha in the household to lust after, she turns to books. The thing about movies and/or books is, there really aren't any about the average height, average personality electricians with love handles, but just the right amount of alpha to start her engines. If she wants an alpha to lust after, and you're not giving it to her, then she has no choice but to read about spies, vampires, and other completely unrealistic heroes.



Tubes said:


> Everyone suggests I do more, help at home more, improve myself, man up and all that. Sure I’m far from perfect as well as unattractive and shy but can improve, but what about her? It feels like an 80-20 split in effort for our relationship and I’m expected to do more?


That's just standard advice. And really, it's not all that helpful. If you both worked full time, and you came home from work and parked your butt on the couch and expected your wife to handle everything around the house, it might work. But that's not your situation. You actually do too much. You can do some yard work. But, if your wife's only job is to take care of the house, she should be able to do everything herself in much less than 40 hours a week. So stop picking up the slack for her.

When you work your butt off to provide for her, and then come home and do her chores, you're communicating that she has a higher status than you do. Women don't get excited about low status men. They want their men to be at least equal status, and preferably higher status, than they are. So you have to start acting like that.

Look better. Dress better. Become more interesting. And stop doing her job. She'll notice that. And she just might find it sexy.

And read Athol's book. He's got 344 pages to save your marriage and, as he puts it, "get you laid like tile."

Good luck.


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## Tubes (Jan 9, 2012)

"@OMGFactsSex: 43% of women say the book “Fifty Shades of Grey” made their sex lives seem routine and boring by comparison."

"@OMGFactsSex: 44% of women prefer reading about sex versus actually HAVING sex."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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