# I messed up, and now feel trapped



## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

We have been married for 13 years, and my husband has always made at least double my income. He is also 15 years older than I am, and is in a different place in life, which neither of us wanted to think about when we married. We knew and wanted children, so we now have 3 kids, the oldest being 10 years old. My husband is hoping to retire in 5 years, while I can't contemplate the idea of retiring.

We never fully combined finances. He puts money into a joint bank account that I use to pay our household bills. He saves everything else, while it has been accepted that I spend every penny of my paycheck to take care of everything. My paycheck goes into my own, separate bank accounts. Unfortunately, over the years I've had credit card debt. We would go on vacation, and I would book it, and when I would ask for money to cover it, he would say to only take part of it because he would rather we have cash in the bank. Then he suggested I get an Amazon credit card to use for all my online shopping to get a discount. We both intended for me to pay it off as soon as I would make purchases, but I became lazy and just let things go. I set up an inefficient autopay amount, and incurred more and more debt. 

My car lease is coming to an end, and we were discussing our options the other day. We finally made a decision on what to do when he said he wants me to take the loan in my name as he refinanced our house last year in his name alone (I am still on the deed.) Since the lease is in his name, I needed to make it a co-borrower situation, and requested some quotes. The next thing I know, my husband freaks out because of the debt I had incurred, saying he had no idea how much it really was, and received an email stating how much I had. He started flipping out, shouting at me, and says he is not going to give me another penny to any bills. He says that he wants to see every account statement I have, and I will not be getting another car. He said I cannot buy our children snacks anymore, and no Halloween costumes, and he won't even pay for a Christmas tree. He said he will just tell them it is all my fault that we can have nothing.

I work from home for my family business, and that enables me to be able to take care of our 3 children. I make very good money considering I do very little for the business. My family did not cut my pay at all, even though I no longer go into the office. Before this blow up happened, I already sort of fell into a additional job as a part-time, work from home bookkeeping position for a local food pantry. I am scheduled to start in about a month, and thought it would be nice to have some extra money, and also possibly help make a difference in other people's lives. The timing is beneficial in my current situation. On the night of the blowout, I went online and applied for yet another job at an overnight position at a newly opened local Amazon warehouse (funny, isn't it?), and the hours I chose means it won't affect my children at all. It means my husband will need to be home on weekend nights, but that's it. I start in 2 weeks. Between these 3 jobs, and cutting back, I anticipate having my debt cleared up in one year.

The problem is my husband's behavior. While I understand his being upset, he is being horrible to me. Our middle child already says he doesn't love his father because of the way he treats me. I feel trapped because even once this debt is gone, I don't know how to go about leaving my husband and giving my children the lifestyle they are used to. I don't want to take away anything good that they know just because I'm unhappy. I don't know how to play "happy family" around my husband's father, but don't want to cause any more friction with my husband. He says I ruined our life. Did I really ruin his life? I admit my mistake, and I am taking action to fix it.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

IDK if your separate finances were fair or not. You should not have hidden the bad news from him, in any case.

You might benefit from couples' counselling. One scenario is, he calms down, you share info better, and make a financial plan. It sounds like you're planning to leave, you might want to delay this decision until you see what comes out of CC. As for how you give the kids the same standard of living w/o him, that is unlikely.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

You've been married for 13 years? Has there always been this attitude of mine/yours, as opposed to 'ours'?

Why do people get married anymore? I just don't understand this way of thinking/living.

Your husband, in my opinion, is looking for out for himself - not his family. He sounds very selfish.

This is his problem. It's not you. 

You have not ruined your family. I mean, are you kidding? You're talking about taking on 3 jobs (when he's making twice what you do) in a way that will least impact your family, and he's throwing tantrums. 🙄


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

1. It sounds like your husband is handling the situation poorly. That’s on him.

2. You created a very bad situation - that he is reacting poorly to. And that’s on you.

You don’t get to unilaterally make big schedule changes that affect him. You basically completely disregarded him and put him and your marriage as bottom priority. He probably feels disregarded, unimportant, disrespected and unloved. 
He is responding to it poorly but his pain and anger is justified based on what you described so far.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

OK so here's what I'm understanding:

1. you guys keep separate finances
2. he kicks in a little to contribute to household bills
3. the rest of the household bills / family finances fall into your lap
4. you pay for pretty much all family vacations with a little financial help from him
5. he convinced you to get another CC for discounted online shopping (??)

Like you, in my former marriage, we kept separate finances, which bothered me and stressed me out a huge amount until we got divorced; then it was easier to split things like that. Like you, my XH kicked in a little towards household expenses, but the majority fell onto me. It's stressful, I get that, and if you're married, finances should be way more of a team activity than a solo thing. Do you do a lot of online shopping? From the debt you racked up, it sounds like you may have a bit of a shopping addiction. If this is the case, you need to cool it down with the spending, and possibly get some help to do that. You were wrong to withhold the debt from your H, but he's wrong in the way he's reacting. You guys should be working as a team right now to pay down this debt. Then, you need to cut up that CC and only keep ONE CC. If you guys take a family vacation, it's up to you both to pay for it, not just you. I don't get how one spouse can just kick in a little and sock the rest away for themselves, while the other one breaks their back with 3 jobs. That's just ridiculous in my mind.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

why did the house need to be refinanced last year , 
does the car need to be replaced now 

can you get help to put your finances into order , 

without know the amount each are paid and what the outgoings are we can not say much but there seems to be a lot more wrong that just the finance, 

if you both want to pull together and get out of your finance problems it can be done if not divorce will cost him a lot and might be the only way if the work is not put in to fix this 

ok you say you fecked up we all do at times , but a lot depends on how you look on money and how you use it


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Your situation was totally avoidable and predictable. Many men treat financial infidelity the same as marital infidelity. I strongly recommend that you study Dave Ramsey's recommendations for handling money. You have violated everything he preaches against. All of the information you need from him is free.









A Proven Plan for Financial Success | RamseySolutions.com


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

This sounds unbalanced, and it doesn't sound like either of you understand marital assets from a legal sense. Once you're married, half of his income for the duration of the marriage is yours, and vise versa. Also, half of your debt is his, and his yours. How much money does he have saved away? If you divorce, you would be entitled to a significant portion of that, close to if not half depending on how much he had prior to marriage. Sounds like it would more than cover your debt. You were wrong to hide the debt from him, but he is wrong to treat you harshly and not help you get current. It's in his interest, too.


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

he is playing with fire


OnTheRocks said:


> This sounds unbalanced, and it doesn't sound like neither of you understand marital assets from a legal sense. Once you're married, half of his income for the duration of the marriage is yours, and vise versa. Also, half of your debt is his, and his yours. How much money does he have saved away? If you divorce, you would be entitled to a significant portion of that, close to if not half depending on how much he had prior to marriage. Sounds like it would more than cover your debt. You were wrong to hide the debt from him, but he is wrong to treat you harshly and not help you get current. It's in his interest, too.


 if the OP goes for divorce


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

frenchpaddy said:


> he is playing with fire
> 
> 
> if the OP goes for divorce


Right - that's my point. I don't think the husband understands the stake he has here if he continues to treat her harshly enough for her to want to divorce. If he did, he would probably shut his mouth and become a lot more compassionate and helpful.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

This is the problem with completely separate finances. If this is done, both partners need to know exactly what is going on with both. In the end it effects you both. Did you get lazy or was their not enough money? Did you spend a significant amount more than you let on to him? Or are his expectations too high for what you bring in?
There are all important factors here.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

SpinyNorman said:


> IDK if your separate finances were fair or not. You should not have hidden the bad news from him, in any case.
> 
> You might benefit from couples' counselling. One scenario is, he calms down, you share info better, and make a financial plan. It sounds like you're planning to leave, you might want to delay this decision until you see what comes out of CC. As for how you give the kids the same standard of living w/o him, that is unlikely.


I should not have hidden anything, I agree. I honestly didn't really realize it was happening. It was more of a "out of sight, out of mind" scenario. I just thought to myself that I online shop too much, but it's not big deal.

I have actually always shared more info with him than he does with me for the most part. He told me we have $70k in his savings account last week, and I had no idea. I knew there was savings, but not that much. Technically, it would make more financial sense for him to pay off my debt (less than half of our savings) and I repay our savings, even with interest if he wants, but I would never suggest that because I understand his anger.

As for counseling, we tried that years ago and he outright lied to the counselor, or omitted things to make himself look better. 

I'm sad for the kids. I wish I knew the how to best care for them. Lifestyle vs intact family vs house free of negativity.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

minimalME said:


> You've been married for 13 years? Has there always been this attitude of mine/yours, as opposed to 'ours'?
> 
> Why do people get married anymore? I just don't understand this way of thinking/living.
> 
> ...


 Thank you. I really do agree with what you say. I am at fault for being careless with my credit card, but I am taking responsibility for it. I don't understand how that is ruining his life.

He was divorced when we met, and rather bitter (in hindsight). He was the one who wanted to get married because he didn't believe in having children outside of marriage. I was always ok with keeping things separate because I wanted to somehow prove to him that I wasn't after him for his money. I wanted him to think I am different than his ex, who he said was always wanting the best of everything, and got to keep his "dream house" and always wanted more.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Ursula said:


> OK so here's what I'm understanding:
> 
> 1. you guys keep separate finances
> 2. he kicks in a little to contribute to household bills
> ...


I agree with that. I need to get rid of the credit cards, and only keep one with, the one with the lower limit for emergencies only. I do have a shopping addiction, but that's certainly over. Having a plan to pay things down has made that part of me feel more free. His decision to take it out on the kids regardless of how I'm trying to fix my mistake is what bothers me most. I'm not scared to work, but I don't think it fair to keep the kids from having things that they would have regardless if we were married or not. Halloween costumes??? Ridiculous. I didn't bankrupt us!


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> This is the problem with completely separate finances. If this is done, both partners need to know exactly what is going on with both. In the end it effects you both. Did you get lazy or was their not enough money? Did you spend a significant amount more than you let on to him? Or are his expectations too high for what you bring in?
> There are all important factors here.


It was a combination of it all. I did get lazy. I spent more than could because my "new" card was being used for all my online purchases that I had previously used my debit card for. And then he never realized that I was never able to cover the big things that he didn't want to cover in lump sums. But I should have been more clear with him. I do take responsibility for that.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Thank you. I really do agree with what you say. I am at fault for being careless with my credit card, but I am taking responsibility for it. I don't understand how that is ruining his life.
> 
> He was divorced when we met, and rather bitter (in hindsight). He was the one who wanted to get married because he didn't believe in having children outside of marriage. I was always ok with keeping things separate because I wanted to somehow prove to him that I wasn't after him for his money. I wanted him to think I am different than his ex, who he said was always wanting the best of everything, and got to keep his "dream house" and always wanted more.


It’s not just about the credit card, it’s about you unilaterally deciding to try to get extra jobs which significantly impacted his life, his schedule, and both of your time together. That would be a much bigger deal to me than your lack of credit card discipline. But maybe that’s just me


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I should not have hidden anything, I agree. I honestly didn't really realize it was happening. It was more of a "out of sight, out of mind" scenario. I just thought to myself that I online shop too much, but it's not big deal.
> 
> I have actually always shared more info with him than he does with me for the most part. He told me we have $70k in his savings account last week, and I had no idea. I knew there was savings, but not that much. Technically, it would make more financial sense for him to pay off my debt (less than half of our savings) and I repay our savings, even with interest if he wants, but I would never suggest that because I understand his anger.
> 
> ...


Then he should pay off the debt, and you stop the shopping addiction and work more to replace the losses. 'Separate finances' don't exist when a divorce happens.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

OnTheRocks said:


> Right - that's my point. I don't think the husband understands the stake he has here if he continues to treat her harshly enough for her to want to divorce. If he did, he would probably shut his mouth and become a lot more compassionate and helpful.


He has said to me in the past that if I ever planned to divorce him, he would drag it out and make it as expensive as possible for me. I've seen a little bit of that with his ex-wife when their daughter went off to college. As awful as he can be, I'm not looking to clean him out. I understand him being angry, but an acknowledgement of my willingness to fix things would be nice. It's hard to live in a house with someone who is just so angry and nasty all the time.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> It’s not just about the credit card, it’s about you unilaterally deciding to try to get extra jobs which significantly impacted his life, his schedule, and both of your time together. That would be a much bigger deal to me than your lack of credit card discipline. But maybe that’s just me


It's actually the opposite for him. I will be working overnight two nights per week, when everyone is in bed. It really doesn't affect him at all. He will not have to do anything extra. He is ok with all that too. If anything, taking the extra jobs has calmed him a little bit, but he is still refusing to let the kids have things they normally would have, like crackers and chips when I need to go grocery shopping.

He wants me to every purchase I make, so I have done that. The only purchase I have made since this came to light is my prescription medication that I gave him the receipt for.

I told him I don't need a penny from him to manage all the bills since I cut out all extras, and I think he lost a little of his power. He then says he will give me extra money if he approves of the purchases.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Has his nastiness predated these revelations?


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

frenchpaddy said:


> why did the house need to be refinanced last year ,
> does the car need to be replaced now
> 
> can you get help to put your finances into order ,
> ...


He refinanced the house for a lower rate, and we didn't include me on it because I own a part of my family's business, and that makes mortgages a whole lot more difficult. He was able to do it without me, and reduced our terms in years. 

The lease is ending on the car, so we had to make a decision. We'll turn it in, and I'll drive whatever he isn't. He has a car and a truck, both in his name, one of which he purchased this year. I can't stand the truck, and he knows that, but beggars can't be choosers, and I know that is what he will make me drive. Once this debt is cleared, I'll think about something for me.

I have a much better understanding of where I went wrong now. I went through my accounts line by line the very next day, and created a spreadsheet of essentials, where I can cut things back, and what is just not needed. He originally demanded to see every little thing, and now that I have it, he still says things, but hasn't actually taken the time to look. I wonder if he knows that I'm being honest and can show accountability so he doesn't need to, or what.

I don't know whether or not he wants divorce. He knows it's expensive having done that, but we're not happy together anymore either. He commented that things have not been good for quite a while, but this is the "nail in the coffin". I don't want to fight, but he doesn't seem capable of a calm conversation to discuss what to do about our marriage.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

OnTheRocks said:


> Then he should pay off the debt, and you stop the shopping addiction and work more to replace the losses. 'Separate finances' don't exist when a divorce happens.


 "Should". He never will. But I would also feel so guilty too. Ugh! I screwed up!


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Has his nastiness predated these revelations?


YES.

I was considering leaving him anyway because of how horrible he can be. I've been through therapy, and my therapist says he's abusive. I honestly think he may have some sort of personality disorder. He can be good, and he is hard working, but that's not quite enough.

I would not be with him if we did not have children.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

OnTheRocks said:


> Right - that's my point. I don't think the husband understands the stake he has here if he continues to treat her harshly enough for her to want to divorce. If he did, he would probably shut his mouth and become a lot more compassionate and helpful.


Unless he's already protected himself. With technology you can make money literally disappear. Then reappear in Costa Rica.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

How long did you date him and how old were you? That’s obviously a significant age difference between you and doesn’t often work.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Of course you're in debt, you're paying most of the bills with half of his income while he stashes money away. I'm sure he's also got a hefty retirement account that he thinks belongs solely to him. It doesn't- half the value of that retirement account that was funded during the marriage is yours.

As explained by other posters, he's got a lot to lose in the event of divorce and you really should consider getting tougher and insisting you get your fair share of what is rightfully yours by marriage- which means whatever he's stashing in those accounts, and insist he pays more towards the house bills, at least his proportionate share based on his higher income.

Or just run around scared of him and his belligerence while slaving your life away working 3 jobs when you really don't have to.

He's not "good" as you say, as per the nastiness and him forcing you to work so hard while he stashes money away, and he might be hard working but he's keeping it all for himself.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I don't know whether or not he wants divorce. He knows it's expensive having done that, but we're not happy together anymore either. He commented that things have not been good for quite a while, but this is the "nail in the coffin". I don't want to fight, but he doesn't seem capable of a calm conversation to discuss what to do about our marriage.


He has made your choice easy here. If you view the higher financial status lifestyle for your kids while in a toxic atmosphere then you stay. If you prefer a less toxic atmosphere for your kids while they need to live a lesser financial status lifestyle then leave.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> How long did you date him and how old were you? That’s obviously a significant age difference between you and doesn’t often work.


We were together for 2 years before we married. We met when I was 29 and he was 44. I'm now 44 and he's 59. I thought age differences didn't really matter. My brother was (passed away) 13 years older than me, and he was one of the people I was closest to. Miss him.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Trident said:


> Of course you're in debt, you're paying most of the bills with half of his income while he stashes money away. I'm sure he's also got a hefty retirement account that he thinks belongs solely to him. It doesn't- half the value of that retirement account that was funded during the marriage is yours.
> 
> As explained by other posters, he's got a lot to lose in the event of divorce and you really should consider getting tougher and insisting you get your fair share of what is rightfully yours by marriage- which means whatever he's stashing in those accounts, and insist he pays more towards the house bills, at least his proportionate share based on his higher income.
> 
> ...


 He does have a rather large retirement account that he is rather proud of. I think he was a bit luckier in his last divorce because he was younger (and younger than his wife) so he didn't have much in retirement assets. He walked away from that marriage rather easily. He did drag things around a bit when his ex took him back to court over college expenses. Those kind of maneuvers are what have me worried.
I don't mind working hard, but I refuse to be scared of him. I feel guilty and just don't know how to reason with him. He doesn't deserve to treat me poorly, but I did mess up.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> He has made your choice easy here. If you view the higher financial status lifestyle for your kids while in a toxic atmosphere then you stay. If you prefer a less toxic atmosphere for your kids while they need to live a lesser financial status lifestyle then leave.


I'm leaning toward the less toxic environment once this debt is cleared up, hopefully sooner rather than later. I just don't know how to help the kids adjust. They want to stay in our house, and I really can't take over the house on my own.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, you messed up but you’re trying to fix it while he hoards money. That’s not equally balanced.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Unless he's already protected himself. With technology you can make money literally disappear. Then reappear in Costa Rica.


He would be there by now if he had those kind of plans! He's been saying for the last 15 years that he wants to move to the Caribbean, and he's still here.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I refuse to be scared of him.


You act like you're scared of him. No doubt you're letting him take advantage of you.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Yes, you messed up but you’re trying to fix it while he hoards money. That’s not equally balanced.


 True, but is it fair for me to ask for the savings? I incurred the debt. How do I show that I'm truly sorry by asking for money that was saved? Do I hope that he will calm down over time, especially if I continue to be completely transparent with my spending? Then maybe he will openly consider using savings to save on interest and I try to replenish the savings? Or is that only possible for someone who is otherwise happy in their marriage? (In reference to his saying to me that this was the nail in the coffin of our marriage.)


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Trident said:


> You act like you're scared of him. No doubt you're letting him take advantage of you.


Habit I suppose. He is emotionally abusive. Now that the kids are getting older, I'm not taking it as easily, especially he mistreats them.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> True, but is it fair for me to ask for the savings? I incurred the debt. How do I show that I'm truly sorry by asking for money that was saved? Do I hope that he will calm down over time, especially if I continue to be completely transparent with my spending? Then maybe he will openly consider using savings to save on interest and I try to replenish the savings? Or is that only possible for someone who is otherwise happy in their marriage? (In reference to his saying to me that this was the nail in the coffin of our marriage.)


IMO most people would think it’s better to clear debt than hoard money but apparently he doesn’t agree so I wouldn’t expect him to offer it. You could give him a repayment plan, if you haven’t, but I don’t think he really likes you (let alone loves you) so no matter what you do he may not think it’s good enough.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You're not going to fix this problem until you learn about money and marriages. I hope you read my recommendation for Dave Ramsey. Money is the number one cause of divorce in the US.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I’d think if he had to pay a nanny to do all the stuff a mom does... he’d owe you some serious cash 🤔. Don’t beat yourself up... don’t let him beat you up either. I mean, you’re not buying yourself fur coats or 200 pairs of shoes- right?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

DudeInProgress said:


> It’s not just about the credit card, it’s about you unilaterally deciding to try to get extra jobs which significantly impacted his life, his schedule, and both of your time together. That would be a much bigger deal to me than your lack of credit card discipline. But maybe that’s just me


So she can't do anything here? She made some spending mistakes. She's willing to work her butt off to pay them down. Husband has made it clear he holds the debt against her. So what is she supposed to do?

OP Sounds like your husband should have been contributing more to the kids upkeep as well. I assume since you are married and he didn't want kids outside of marriage that he was part of the decision to have these kids?

Yes you were finacially irresponsible. I am glad to see you have a plan to get out of debt within the year. If you had switched jobs to 'make' more then you both would have had to kick in a significant amount for child care for 3. Don't forget you are also saving the family money.

Have you had a chance to sit down, no kids outside of this initial discovery to talk about what happens next?
Have you told him your plan to work more to pay it down?

Is he still angry and mean after that conversation or is this his initial reaction. I also agree it is extreme to cancel Christman. Not extreme to say only a few presents. No vacation this year and such.

I do understand your reaction to his reaction. He is acting like the kids aren't even his. Then he is trying to use their emotions as a weapon against you. This isn't good. I'd be losing love for him. 

DO NOT fall for this you don't need a penny from him. Why are you paying all the household bills, groceries and such?
Have you two sat down and figured out what it costs to run this household? He should be paying a minimum of 1/2 and most couple with separate finances work it where the higher earner pays more. How much would just child care cost? Does he cook? does he do household chores?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Here's the rule. Never marry a person who insist on have separate checking accounts or anyone who you believe poor money management forces you to maintain separate accounts.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I agree with that. I need to get rid of the credit cards, and only keep one with, the one with the lower limit for emergencies only. I do have a shopping addiction, but that's certainly over. Having a plan to pay things down has made that part of me feel more free. *His decision to take it out on the kids regardless of how I'm trying to fix my mistake is what bothers me most. I'm not scared to work, but I don't think it fair to keep the kids from having things that they would have regardless if we were married or not. Halloween costumes??? Ridiculous.* I didn't bankrupt us!


Exactly, and that's the part that I don't understand either. If his finances are separated out, and those are also his kids, then it's up to him to help raise them, and make sure they have what they need as kids. He can get them Halloween costumes this year, and can step up with the other things too.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> As for counseling, we tried that years ago and he outright lied to the counselor, or omitted things to make himself look better.


This is a very big deal; why did he lie? If you were going to therapy to help better yourselves as a couple, truth needs to be told.



DudeInProgress said:


> It’s not just about the credit card, it’s about you unilaterally deciding to try to get extra jobs which significantly impacted his life, his schedule, and both of your time together. That would be a much bigger deal to me than your lack of credit card discipline. But maybe that’s just me


See, to me, this is taking responsibility to right the wrong. The OP even said that her jobs won't impact the family a large amount, just that her husband will need to be home on weekend evenings. And, if he's a Dad, that's where he should be anyways.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Your passiveness in regards to your husband's finances is hurting your children.

You might not care but they're the ones being affected the most.


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

Ursula said:


> This is a very big deal; why did he lie? If you were going to therapy to help better yourselves as a couple, truth needs to be told.


Pfft. People always present a skewed, biased, inaccurate account of themselves and their lives to therapists. It happens here all the time. Sometimes it's intentional, more often they probably aren't even aware they're doing it.

Couples counseling to resolve relationship problems is even worse. Each party naturally wants the therapist to see that they're right and their partner is wrong.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> It's actually the opposite for him. I will be working overnight two nights per week, when everyone is in bed. It really doesn't affect him at all. He will not have to do anything extra. He is ok with all that too. If anything, taking the extra jobs has calmed him a little bit, but he is still refusing to let the kids have things they normally would have, like crackers and chips when I need to go grocery shopping.
> 
> He wants me to every purchase I make, so I have done that. The only purchase I have made since this came to light is my prescription medication that I gave him the receipt for.
> 
> *I told him I don't need a penny from him to manage all the bills since I cut out all extras, and I think he lost a little of his power. He then says he will give me extra money if he approves of the purchases.*


Your marriage sounds more like a business transaction than a marriage.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> True, but is it fair for me to ask for the savings? I incurred the debt. How do I show that I'm truly sorry by asking for money that was saved? Do I hope that he will calm down over time, especially if I continue to be completely transparent with my spending? Then maybe he will openly consider using savings to save on interest and I try to replenish the savings? Or is that only possible for someone who is otherwise happy in their marriage? (In reference to his saying to me that this was the nail in the coffin of our marriage.)


If you've got the debt handled, then that's good. BUT, you guys live in the same house together, you have shared children who incur expenses, there are household bills, groceries, things for the kids, and you seem to be taking care of ALL of this while he sits on a nice pile of money. He's there too, he can take over the bills for a time. Hell, if you've been paying them for the duration of your marriage, let him pay them for the next number of years. Send the retired ****** out for groceries, and make sure he takes HIS credit card or cash along, not yours. Tell him that anything the kids need for the foreseeable future falls on his plate. Make him be a contributing partner. THIS is what irks me in this situation. Sure you messed up, but you're busting your @$$ to fix it, while he sits pretty and watches (probably with a bowl of popcorn). See, this was my XH too. He didn't care how much I struggled, and he'd watch me do it. I threw out my back once, and we got a dump of snow. Who shovelled? Me, by myself until the neighbour saw me struggling. This is just how some men are, but it doesn't make it right; it just makes them jerks.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Trident said:


> Pfft. People always present a skewed, biased, inaccurate account of themselves and their lives to therapists. It happens here all the time. Sometimes it's intentional, more often they probably aren't even aware they're doing it.
> 
> Couples counseling to resolve relationship problems is even worse. Each party naturally wants the therapist to see that they're right and their partner is wrong.


Yeah, I guess, but it's still a stupid move.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I'm more alarmed by your comment about how are you going to keep the kids in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. Hey, it's probably time they too learned to live within their means, so why would you try to perpetuate that illusion with them when you know how it ends in financial disaster and possibly marital disaster? Time you cut their spending and allowances as well as you start cinching your spending and paying your debt off as a family. You're not doing the kids any favors letting them think they can always have what they want, you know.

Once your husband and you calm down, I suggest you sit down calmly and work out a plan to pay off the debt. He needs to know what you're spending. I realize he has some culpability since you once mentioned to him you'd like him to help with your debt and he minimized that, but at this point, he needs to know all about your finances and you his and you two need to stop pointing the finger and just tighten your belts all around and stop spending what you don't have. You should both have open books the other can look at anytime and you should sit down once a month and pay bills together and see where you're at. 

Don't know why you're blaming him. I believe he did not really know or he'd never have encouraged you to get another credit card. You need to both pay off and get rid of the credit cards with the highest interest rates on them first.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Both of you need some education on managing your finances. You need to learn some self control and transparency / accountability. He needs to learn what a divorce looks like with child support for 3 kids, 'his' large retirement accounts, and likely alimony for a few years in most States (>10 yrs married). He will be floored, and probably stop being an unreasonable a$$h0le ('cancel xmas', really?) immediately. I am saying this as a divorced male, if it matters.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

The financial situation you construct d with your husband is lopsided and unfair. While you need to be accountable for your part of the spending, he essentially chose to opt out from worrying about household finances. You two could benefit from seeing a financial planner, but you are not his administrative assistant.

He needs to stop the tantrum and help you clean up the mess.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> He has said to me in the past that if I ever planned to divorce him, he would drag it out and make it as expensive as possible for me. I've seen a little bit of that with his ex-wife when their daughter went off to college. As awful as he can be, I'm not looking to clean him out. I understand him being angry, but an acknowledgement of my willingness to fix things would be nice. It's hard to live in a house with someone who is just so angry and nasty all the time.


LOL! Wow - news flash! The lawyer fees would come out of the marital estate. What a jerk! Who says stuff like that?


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> True, but is it fair for me to ask for the savings? I incurred the debt. How do I show that I'm truly sorry by asking for money that was saved? Do I hope that he will calm down over time, especially if I continue to be completely transparent with my spending? Then maybe he will openly consider using savings to save on interest and I try to replenish the savings? Or is that only possible for someone who is otherwise happy in their marriage? (In reference to his saying to me that this was the nail in the coffin of our marriage.)


The debt you incurred by RUNNING THE HOME is also his responsibility! The amount in savings should have already been moved around to pay this debt. You should not be punished by working 3 jobs as if you are a child who wrecked their car and need it fixed. You are his wife - not his child. This whole scenario is so backwards and puts you in a parent child dynamic rather than a partnership.


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## CrAzYdOgLaDy (Mar 22, 2021)

What alarms me is how he won't help getting the kids Halloween costumes, or the things they need and even not letting them have any treats, and even going as far as having no Christmas tree. How miserable for your children. He should be ashamed of himself. They are his kids too. I don't understand him taking this out on his kids. He seems like an abuser. It would also be best to pay the debts off from the savings to prevent interest costs etc, which you will be paying a lot more than you owe. Then you can pay back into the savings. I'd leave the man and I bet the children will be a lot happier. He seems really mean and other words I won't post here because they aren't nice. 

When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark


YNWA


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Openminded said:


> IMO most people would think it’s better to clear debt than hoard money but apparently he doesn’t agree so I wouldn’t expect him to offer it. You could give him a repayment plan, if you haven’t, but I don’t think he really likes you (let alone loves you) so no matter what you do he may not think it’s good enough.


The problem is he is 60 and wants to retire in five years. With younger children he might not have been able to put away much lately. Unless he has a great retirement benefit (which hardly exist) he's going to need a lot of money to last 20 years. Social Security doesn't cover much.

I am in no way excusing his nastiness. But this may have a major impact on his life. My gut says he is freaking out because his retirement is fading away.

3Kids, some questions to consider (you don't have to answer but can if you want):

You mention some vacations and such, then mention a spending addiction. So that begs the question of how much debt did you rack up? $25k? 50k? $100k or more? It's easy to do. I know people who have.

Have these spending issues popped up before?

How well prepared is your H for retirement? You say he has large savings, but even $500k isn't much - maybe $20k a year. Unless his income is modest, Social Security replaces maybe 1/3 of it.

Does he have a difficult job and/or health issues that will make it hard for him to work past 65?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Al_Bundy said:


> Unless he's already protected himself. With technology you can make money literally disappear. Then reappear in Costa Rica.


Or unless a lot of what he accumulated predated their marriage. He is 60, after all. He married at 46. At 46 I owned my house and a bunch of money in my 401k accounts. If I had three little ones and a wife I wouldn't be able to add much more.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I agree with that. I need to get rid of the credit cards, and only keep one with, the one with the lower limit for emergencies only. I do have a shopping addiction, but that's certainly over. Having a plan to pay things down has made that part of me feel more free. His decision to take it out on the kids regardless of how I'm trying to fix my mistake is what bothers me most. I'm not scared to work, but I don't think it fair to keep the kids from having things that they would have regardless if we were married or not. Halloween costumes??? Ridiculous. I didn't bankrupt us!


If your shopping addiction is over .......
Why do you need to buy a new car, holidays, Halloween costumes?
When in debt, stop buying stuff you can do without.

As for joint finances, your husband seems entirely sensible to me.
Women are responsible for 80% of all spending in the USA.








Women Drive Majority of Consumer Purchasing and It's Time to Meet Their Needs


Women spend more time than men each day making purchasing decisions for their families. Why don't more businesses, large and small, think of women first when creating new products and services?




www.inc.com





Crackers and chips ..........
Better for your children not to have so many snacks, obesity in children is a serious problem.
Teach them not to eat between meals, and they will have a happier and healthier life.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> He would be there by now if he had those kind of plans! He's been saying for the last 15 years that he wants to move to the Caribbean, and he's still here.


This might not apply to your situation. In some states he'd be facing the possibility of having to pay you literally for the rest of his life if you divorced. I know of a couple guys who have shifted some assets over the last several years to where if they had to GTFO it'd be enough for them to comfortably live on. However these guys both have adult children and not young kids they'd be leaving behind. It's more of what I'd call a nuclear option.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> If your shopping addiction is over .......
> Why do you need to buy a new car, holidays, Halloween costumes?
> When in debt, stop buying stuff you can do without.
> 
> ...


OP stated it’s a little under 25k, which includes family vacations. It is pretty unfair to peg her with vacations and things purchased for kids. Buying a costume for Halloween is hardly a shopping addiction.

I think the issue here is he chose to stay in the dark and contribute random amounts of money and pushed credit cards for reward points. He should have been having financial meetings to stay in the loop. He obviously knows things are being purchased but chose to be ignorant to how it’s being paid. He should have been even more attentive given his desire to retire.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Really he shouldn’t have agreed to young children if he wanted to retire.

with the oldest being 10, lord knows how young the youngest is.
It is frequently a bad plan to retire with large family unknowns.

He want to retire in 5 years but will have small children for 10 to 12 years?

it seems like he now wants to pretend he doesn’t have children. They are her children and he shouldn’t have to contribute to their care (NOT)


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> Really he shouldn’t have agreed to young children if he wanted to retire.


Generally agree. But there is the possibility that he has to retire. Lots of people have to retire due to health issues.



Anastasia6 said:


> it seems like he now wants to pretend he doesn’t have children. They are her children and he shouldn’t have to contribute to their care (NOT)


Or he didn't plan well and now things are looking to be super tight.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

You got a 60 year old guy, that by the OP's admission, is working very hard...Add 3 little kids into the mix and this guy is probably feeling like a donkey that is running out of steam, with a bunch of people whipping him....

But at the end of the day, he chose it as well as she did...no going back at this point...esp with young kids..

I think perhaps some patience and a cooling off period needs to be observed...I am sure that when he heard of the debt, then he flipped out as it was just another thing for him to worry about financially as the end of his working days are looming....As it is, he's probably crapping himself daily thinking about college expenses when he is 70+....I highly doubt that he was serious about the holiday expenses....Its just blowing off steam and over reaction to some news he really didn't want to hear...Few guys are that crappy to their own kids...

Not so sure its such a great idea for the OP to now work like an animal to perhaps relieve her guilt over it...What's done is done...Let it cool off and perhaps set up a meeting without the kids around...Talk it over...lay out all the details...Maybe he pulls it together and a plan is worked out...Just working yourself into the ground with 3 jobs isn't going to be much...You will be tired, the kids will suffer...

He can't or shouldn't treat you poorly, as I said, perhaps it's just bluster...The segregating of finances is kinda odd, but not unheard of for guys on the second go round, and by not addressing it early, you set a precedent.....Most of the guys I know kinda had similar arrangements...But more than one made the women sign pre nups...I assume this guy didn't? If I was 44 and marrying for the second time with woman in her 20's and unbalanced assets and earning potential i'd probably go for a pre nup as well..

Eh, if its unbearable, lawyer up and get that ball rolling...Otherwise, if you think it's still viable, try to meet with him and work it out...


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

moulinyx said:


> OP stated it’s a little under 25k, which includes family vacations. It is pretty unfair to peg her with vacations and things purchased for kids. Buying a costume for Halloween is hardly a shopping addiction.


When you're in debt (or saving for retirement) buying things you don't need is a problem.
Nobody NEEDs a holiday, new car or Halloween costume.

And personally, I don't need a woman that insists on having those things.
$25k will pay all my outgoings for 2 years, it's a significant amount.
How long would it take you to save $25k from your income?


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> He want to retire in 5 years but will have small children for 10 to 12 years?


Don't see it as a problem myself, 
I retired at age 45, and at age 65 am still retired with a 40 year old wife and a 10 year old son.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

Ok

The OP husband is hitting 60 y/o
OP said husband is a hard working man
He is planning to retire in 5 years
Wife created debt around $35k-$40k 
We don't know his side of the story
Look at it from his point of view, what would you do if your spouse put your life long plans under serious threat?! (read the question again known he is 60 who is planning to retire in 5 years)

What he's doing is showing OP consequences for her actions, showing her that money is not being printed in the basement, he wants OP to see how hard it is to make and manage money and how it is vitally important to plan for your retirement so you live decently and with dignity!
That's why he wants @LoveMy3Kids to to take full ownership of the debt she created (which she is) and show her how being irresponsible with managing money can have a very negative affects on the family (No vacations, no kids snacks, no Christmas ..Etc)!
He also doesn't want his wife to screw up his plans for retirement, he is not the one who created the debt and hid it for a long time! 
He wants OP to solve the debt issue with lessons learned!
People need to understand it's a very big deal for someone who is 60 and has solid plans to retire soon!


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

I hope you live in a community property state. Squirreling away his earnings is total ********.

Talk to a lawyer. He is your HUSBAND and it sounds like his plan has been to screw you from the start. WTF is up with separate bank accounts.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Kaliber said:


> Ok
> 
> The OP husband is hitting 60 y/o
> OP said husband is a hard working man
> ...


Context is critical here....

If she was out running up debt with frivolous items and such, then for sure it would amount to an enormous issue....But if we believe what she said and the debt was stuff for kids, house, family vacations, then he needs to man up and not whine about it...He had an equal part in building a family and kids cost a ton of money....He can't just lay all of that at her feet...That would be grossly unfair..


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> Context is critical here....
> 
> If she was out running up debt with frivolous items and such, then for sure it would amount to an enormous issue....But if we believe what she said and the debt was stuff for kids, house, family vacations, then he needs to man up and not whine about it...He had an equal part in building a family and kids cost a ton of money....He can't just lay all of that at her feet...That would be grossly unfair..


She said she herself had a spending problem. So it's not just stuff for the kids or family.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Livvie said:


> She said she herself had a spending problem. So it's not just stuff for the kids or family.


Ok, but really....I don't know if you have/had kids or not...It's a constant stream of money..

I cant imagine a woman with 3 little kids, all under 10, is spending all kinds of money on stupid or frivolous/insignificant items..I bet if you dissected it all, I would bet a lot of it was stuff for the kids...and even if it was frivolous stuff for kids(like toys and junk) so what? Get over it, it's not a million dollars...its 25k...

I still say it's important to know exactly where that money went and what was it spent on...It can be corrected and budgeted more carefully later,.....02


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

............The guy here deserves some heat....He is the one that decided that he should start a family when he was 50 years old...And now he's getting alligator arms and is whining about HIS retirement?? FOH...

You have kids that late, and unless you are super wealthy or plan on living til you are 120, you better be prepared to keep earning and keep paying,,,, He'll be in his 80's and paying for college and all kinds of other crap...

She may not be such a savvy shopper/saver, but I think he needs a reality check....


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> When you're in debt (or saving for retirement) buying things you don't need is a problem.
> Nobody NEEDs a holiday, new car or Halloween costume.
> 
> And personally, I don't need a woman that insists on having those things.
> ...


$25k doesn't go as far in the US as it does in Thailand.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Kaliber said:


> People need to understand it's a very big deal for someone who is 60 and has solid plans to retire soon!


He needed to not have had kids at 50 then. He needed to take an active interest in the bill paying. He could have stayed home when they went on vacations. He doesn't care that his wife will never be able to retire.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Kaliber said:


> Ok
> 
> The OP husband is hitting 60 y/o
> OP said husband is a hard working man
> ...


To me that's the point. HIS life long plans. It should be THEIR life long plans that they make together. They are supposed to be in a committed marriage, but he acts as if he is single, making plans for himself but not his family. Not contributing his fair share to the costs of day to day bills.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

Financial responsibility is very important to me. My dad is a retired accountant so I learned how to be thrifty and how to save money very early in life.

If my husband came up with 25k of hidden debt, I would be speaking with a lawyer. I don't care if they were family expenses or family vacations. I know what basic needs are, and snacks, vacations, new cars, expensive clothes, shoes, are not basic expenses. I understand your husband's anger.

Start paying off the credit card with the highest interest rate. If your husband loans you the money, even better. Or call the credit card company and see what options they offer to pay off the debt.

Halloween costumes? Go to the thrift store and buy your kids costumes. Snacks? Start cutting coupons or buy at cheaper grocery stores like Aldi or Lidl. Even Amazon has good deals sometimes for snacks. If you have rewards or points at Walgreens or cvs you can use them towards purchases. They have great deals on personal hygiene products.

There are many ways to save money. You just have to do your homework and be disciplined with your spending. There are ways to go on vacation and save money! We do it all the time!

Your husband is who he is and you knew this. You have to decide if you can stay married to him or not. Speak to a lawyer and see what your options are. You might be able to split the debt if you guys divorce.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> We have been married for 13 years, and my husband has always made at least double my income. He is also 15 years older than I am, and is in a different place in life, which neither of us wanted to think about when we married. We knew and wanted children, so we now have 3 kids, the oldest being 10 years old. My husband is hoping to retire in 5 years, while I can't contemplate the idea of retiring.
> 
> We never fully combined finances. He puts money into a joint bank account that I use to pay our household bills. He saves everything else, while it has been accepted that I spend every penny of my paycheck to take care of everything. My paycheck goes into my own, separate bank accounts. Unfortunately, over the years I've had credit card debt. We would go on vacation, and I would book it, and when I would ask for money to cover it, he would say to only take part of it because he would rather we have cash in the bank. Then he suggested I get an Amazon credit card to use for all my online shopping to get a discount. We both intended for me to pay it off as soon as I would make purchases, but I became lazy and just let things go. I set up an inefficient autopay amount, and incurred more and more debt.
> 
> ...



How much is the debt?

First things first.
You need to pay off the debt. If it is too much to pay at once then you need to make a budget plan that pays off that debt as quickly as possible. (Think Dave Ramsey)
You two need to sit down and straighten out your finances, your 2 incomes, you working while he is retired and make an agreed upon plan and budget going forward.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Sfort said:


> You're not going to fix this problem until you learn about money and marriages. I hope you read my recommendation for Dave Ramsey. Money is the number one cause of divorce in the US.


Thank you for your advice. I am well aware of money issues and marriage.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I’d think if he had to pay a nanny to do all the stuff a mom does... he’d owe you some serious cash 🤔. Don’t beat yourself up... don’t let him beat you up either. I mean, you’re not buying yourself fur coats or 200 pairs of shoes- right?


No. I mostly buy things for the kids. He bought me a fur jacket years ago, but I certainly haven't bought anything crazy for myself. If anything, I buy him designer things for Christmas as he goes into an office. I don't need anything special for staying at home. Thanks for the support.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> So she can't do anything here? She made some spending mistakes. She's willing to work her butt off to pay them down. Husband has made it clear he holds the debt against her. So what is she supposed to do?
> 
> OP Sounds like your husband should have been contributing more to the kids upkeep as well. I assume since you are married and he didn't want kids outside of marriage that he was part of the decision to have these kids?
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response. 

Crazy, but we just had massive flooding from a storm last night, and he's much calmer. It took serious threat to our home and lives even (we almost had to get a water rescue it was so bad.) This also may affect my new position with the food pantry as that is completely under water. Yikes.

He hasn't been willing to sit down and have a long conversation over this. I am very good with budgets and whatnot as I am a bookkeeper in my primary position (shocking, I know.) I wonder if his being able to simply ask to see my accounts at any time is enough in his mind. And if I were to need anything extra, and can show him where every penny has gone, if that would be enough.

His reaction to the children is the absolute worst. We are obviously going to have scaled back everything, and I have told the older children this. They are amazing, and while I told them I was completely to blame, they said that they know it's because I buy them everything. They are amazing kids.

He does try to use the kids as weapons against me. He is "abusive" in this way, but he is not as successful at controlling me as he used to be. He's commented that I've changed over the years, and that's mostly since becoming stronger and not letting him cause me to think it's the complete end of the world if he no longer loved me or left me.

He does do work around the house. He takes care of the lawn, and he does his own laundry, and he grills food that I prepare. He also refuses to pay for work to be done on the house and is handy, so he does most renovations himself as well. As he is older and works full time, this means we've had one bathroom gutted and down to the studs for the last 2 years, and I have no idea when he will ever continue with it.

He does not take care of the children at all. He does not even know who their doctors' names are, where their dentist and orthodontists are, etc. He only takes them to sports on occasion when it is a sport he enjoys. He does not take part in any school activities, and did not help when I had all 3 at home for virtual school during the pandemic. That was tough for me.

He does pay the mortgage himself since he refinanced it, but he should have plenty of leftover money since he makes so much more than I do.

I can't say that I love him anymore. I don't believe he ever loved me the way I loved him either. In recent bad times, he will admit to caring for me, and he frequently has said that I am the most suited to him of anyone he has ever met. I guess I can say I still "care" for him, as I don't wish anything bad to happen to him, but I don't know that I would want to actually live with him if money were not an issue.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> IMO most people would think it’s better to clear debt than hoard money but apparently he doesn’t agree so I wouldn’t expect him to offer it. You could give him a repayment plan, if you haven’t, but I don’t think he really likes you (let alone loves you) so no matter what you do he may not think it’s good enough.


 Agreed. With the whole thing. I don't think he truly likes or loves anyone. Sad.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

VladDracul said:


> Here's the rule. Never marry a person who insist on have separate checking accounts or anyone who you believe poor money management forces you to maintain separate accounts.





Ursula said:


> Exactly, and that's the part that I don't understand either. If his finances are separated out, and those are also his kids, then it's up to him to help raise them, and make sure they have what they need as kids. He can get them Halloween costumes this year, and can step up with the other things too.


Yes! He certainly spends enough on alcohol...he can spare $20 for each of the kids to have a normal halloween! They are just kids! I guess if he wants to divorce me over cheap Halloween costumes for them, then go right ahead. I guess that will make him use the savings to cover my debt a lot quicker...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Agreed. With the whole thing. I don't think he truly likes or loves anyone. Sad.


Yes, it is very sad.

Have you ever considered that he married you because you were so much younger and maybe he felt he could control you easier than he could someone older?


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Ursula said:


> If you've got the debt handled, then that's good. BUT, you guys live in the same house together, you have shared children who incur expenses, there are household bills, groceries, things for the kids, and you seem to be taking care of ALL of this while he sits on a nice pile of money. He's there too, he can take over the bills for a time. Hell, if you've been paying them for the duration of your marriage, let him pay them for the next number of years. Send the retired **** out for groceries, and make sure he takes HIS credit card or cash along, not yours. Tell him that anything the kids need for the foreseeable future falls on his plate. Make him be a contributing partner. THIS is what irks me in this situation. Sure you messed up, but you're busting your @$$ to fix it, while he sits pretty and watches (probably with a bowl of popcorn). *See, this was my XH too. He didn't care how much I struggled, and he'd watch me do it. I threw out my back once, and we got a dump of snow. Who shovelled? Me, by myself until the neighbour saw me struggling. *This is just how some men are, but it doesn't make it right; it just makes them jerks.


Wow, this resonates with me. When I was pregnant with our third, I slipped down steps on ice running after the other two. I was lying on my back, not sure if I had broken any bones, and terrified I was going to lose the baby. He was on the other side of the house and didn't notice. When I was able to get up and hobble to him, he didn't react. I ended up driving to the ER by my doctor's advice and staying in the hospital for the day alone, while he never expressed concern. 
And he wanted this third baby too. (He wanted all of them.)
Even before we had the children, I remember having frequent flat tires because of construction on the road to work. I would take care of everything myself, without asking him for help. Our next door neighbor would see me struggling, and would help me.

So this isn't _really_ about money...I made a mistake, but this is just ammunition for him to be extra cruel to me. Hm.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Yes, it is very sad.
> 
> Have you ever considered that he married you because you were so much younger and maybe he felt he could control you easier than he could someone older?


I knew he liked the idea of a younger woman. Didn't necessarily realize that control was also such a big deal. I'm a naturally non-confrontational person, and never experienced fighting or shouting in my home growing up. I just assumed it was about different communication styles. Not so sure that's just it anymore. Ugh.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I knew he liked the idea of a younger woman. Didn't necessarily realize that control was also such a big deal. I'm a naturally non-confrontational person, and never experienced fighting or shouting in my home growing up. I just assumed it was about different communication styles. Not so sure that's just it anymore. Ugh.


Yes, I’m sure he liked all of that. He very likely wouldn’t have picked someone closer to his age and more like himself. Too difficult to manage.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> You got a 60 year old guy, that by the OP's admission, is working very hard...Add 3 little kids into the mix and this guy is probably feeling like a donkey that is running out of steam, with a bunch of people whipping him....
> 
> But at the end of the day, he chose it as well as she did...no going back at this point...esp with young kids..
> 
> ...


 Yes, I think you have a very clear view of the situation. The unfortunate part is that there are some underlying control issues with him, and some history of "emotional abuse" on his part. When I was younger, the desire for children overcame everything else, and he seemed to want the children as much as I did. I'm not sure why he didn't have me sign any prenup, to at least protect his retirement savings which were his biggest assets already when we married. Who knows.

I wish it was just bluster, but only time can tell. I will try to work the other jobs, and simply quit if it turns out to be too much. I'm thinking in the worst case, I will try to work until debt free, and then see about separating. Then the savings will still be there and available to split. As well as more equity in the house, and our middle child will be moving on to the next school, so less disruption if we move to another part of time. Plans.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Yes, I’m sure he liked all of that. He very likely wouldn’t have picked someone closer to his age and more like himself. Too difficult to manage.


Those were both his ex-wife (only 5 years older than him) and his ex-girlfriend before me (5 years younger than him). ha!


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> When you're in debt (or saving for retirement) buying things you don't need is a problem.
> Nobody NEEDs a holiday, new car or Halloween costume.
> 
> And personally, I don't need a woman that insists on having those things.
> ...


No, the kids don't NEED a costume, I don't NEED a new car (just NEED to return the leased one as it is ending), and I don't actually plan any vacations without his say.

No, my husband does not NEED me at all, and I don't actually NEED him. We would not starve or be homeless if we separated even with my debt. We do, however, have 3 children together, and we have to decide how we want to take care of them. Those need to be joint decisions, unless he prefers to ignore them and force me to go to a court to have him contribute to them. That is also something he can't stand...being legally forced to do something, such as when he had to pay child support for his daughter from his previous marriage. I am not going through that route unless he leaves me no other option. Again, my children will not starve or be homeless if he were to vanish, but even as mean and cruel as he can be, I don't think he would ever do that to our children.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Don't see it as a problem myself,
> I retired at age 45, and at age 65 am still retired with a 40 year old wife and a 10 year old son.


 Your situation is obviously different. My husband was not in a position to retire at 45. Apples to oranges.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

This sounds like it was never a partnership. He sounds very stingy, not just with money but with affection especially toward your children. 

If you make substantially less than him you should not be carrying the brunt of the household bills. Of course you will get into financial trouble that way. 

You say he's calmer & you are a bookkeeper. Great. . .spell it out for him. Make charts. Show him receipts. Show your income, his income & his paltry contributions to the household finances. Detail all of the expenses. If you now have 3 jobs, who will care for the kids? Make sure you get some data for him about the costs of child care. If he wants to monetize everything -- do it. Show him how much value he got for your efforts. 

Once he has the hard financial facts, it's time to renegotiate the budget. He needs to contribute a larger percentage of his salary to the running of the household & providing for the children's future. Him retiring before the kids are out of college is selfish. He won't get there by depriving them of snacks & Halloween costumes. While you are at it, get an estimate on the costs of finishing that bathroom.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Kaliber said:


> Ok
> 
> The OP husband is hitting 60 y/o
> OP said husband is a hard working man
> ...


Would it be unreasonable to hope he picks up some of the extras we cut out on behalf of the kids if I follow through with it all?

I guess on his part, he should explain to me how he intends to fund his retirement. It has all been vague numbers, and so far "in the future". How do we pay healthcare when it's through his insurance if he's retired? He has insisted that I do not need to worry about my own retirement funds because I will have his money, but where will his money be if he needs it for us to live? 

Guess we need to have a much more in depth conversation than just my irresponsible credit cards.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

D0nnivain said:


> This sounds like it was never a partnership. He sounds very stingy, not just with money but with affection especially toward your children.
> 
> If you make substantially less than him you should not be carrying the brunt of the household bills. Of course you will get into financial trouble that way.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what my plan is! I've got spreadsheets and highlighted out every line on my bank accounts for this entire year with explanations and showing the what is completely unnecessary going forward. I am hoping to inundate him with info that he can either look over and comment, or let it explode in his brain until he just goes, ok, whatever, just keep me informed and show me the balance at the end of the month. And hopefully he will pay for some little extras for the kids that they are used to. As for childcare, I took the jobs with knowing we won't need any childcare. I will still be "SAHM" to them, and doing work at home on my computer while they are in school, and physically going in overnight on the weekends, and home before they wake up. If I can function on less sleep. Hopefully only two nights per week won't be too difficult, and I will be able to make up some of it while they are at school if I really need to.

The thought of a 3rd functioning bathroom sounds luxurious lol.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Would it be unreasonable to hope he picks up some of the extras we cut out on behalf of the kids if I follow through with it all?
> 
> I guess on his part, he should explain to me how he intends to fund his retirement. It has all been vague numbers, and so far "in the future". How do we pay healthcare when it's through his insurance if he's retired? He has insisted that I do not need to worry about my own retirement funds because I will have his money, but where will his money be if he needs it for us to live?
> 
> Guess we need to have a much more in depth conversation than just my irresponsible credit cards.


yes you do. Cause he will be eligible for Medicare and you and your kids will not. You both need a full picture of what is the future plan and what are the current expenses.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Unless he is sitting on enormous pile of money, and is a savvy investor, his ability to retire comfortably in his later years went down the toilet when he brought three kids into the world that late in life...

I can't believe there is even a discussion about Halloween and Christmas trees, etc...This is nickel and dime crap in terms of money.., but it means the world to little kids....


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

hinterdir said:


> How much is the debt?
> 
> First things first.
> You need to pay off the debt. If it is too much to pay at once then you need to make a budget plan that pays off that debt as quickly as possible. (Think Dave Ramsey)
> You two need to sit down and straighten out your finances, your 2 incomes, you working while he is retired and make an agreed upon plan and budget going forward.


The debt is too much to pay at once unless he were to use our savings. It's around $30k, on 2 different cards. I expect to be able to pay it off in one year. Once I told him that I will not need any money from him to pay the household bills, he said he would give me the money he normally does to use toward my cards, and I already budgeted payments toward them, so that will help immensely. Maybe as he gets used to this new reality, he will be more open toward using the savings and possibly me repaying the savings.

And yes, we need to truly sit down and discuss his retirement. I know he wants to move when he retires, but the kids will still be in school, so maybe see about plans on staying until they finish school, or our different options. If we stay together. Maybe he really doesn't want to, I don't know. He might not love me, but he doesn't make any effort to stay away from me.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> Unless he is sitting on enormous pile of money, and is a savvy investor, his ability to retire comfortably in his later years went down the toilet when he brought three kids into the world that late in life...
> 
> I can't believe there is even a discussion about Halloween and Christmas trees, etc...This is nickel and dime crap in terms of money.., but it means the world to little kids....


 ^^^^THIS^^^^^

I did not force him into the children. We went through IVF for our first! Our children were very deliberate on both our sides. He could be retired by now if stayed with first wife.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm more alarmed by your comment about how are you going to keep the kids in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. Hey, it's probably time they too learned to live within their means, so why would you try to perpetuate that illusion with them when you know how it ends in financial disaster and possibly marital disaster? Time you cut their spending and allowances as well as you start cinching your spending and paying your debt off as a family. You're not doing the kids any favors letting them think they can always have what they want, you know.
> 
> Once your husband and you calm down, I suggest you sit down calmly and work out a plan to pay off the debt. He needs to know what you're spending. I realize he has some culpability since you once mentioned to him you'd like him to help with your debt and he minimized that, but at this point, he needs to know all about your finances and you his and you two need to stop pointing the finger and just tighten your belts all around and stop spending what you don't have. You should both have open books the other can look at anytime and you should sit down once a month and pay bills together and see where you're at.
> 
> *Don't know why you're blaming him. I believe he did not really know or he'd never have encouraged you to get another credit card. You need to both pay off and get rid of the credit cards with the highest interest rates on them first.*


I don't mean to blame him. I don't, I just pointed out that I got the other card at his suggestion, and not that I just go ahead and open accounts all over the place. He made a comment about checking credit reports every couple of months in the future to see if I'm opening other accounts, and that must have stuck in my head. I'm just being defensive because it's not something I really do. I don't blame him for anything except for being talking very harshly to me, and saying things about ending our marriage, when I would think that would be even worse for his retirement plans. Not to say that won't happen anyway.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Noman said:


> I hope you live in a community property state. Squirreling away his earnings is total ******.
> 
> Talk to a lawyer. He is your HUSBAND and it sounds like his plan has been to screw you from the start. WTF is up with separate bank accounts.


I never questioned the separate bank accounts. He was divorced, so I thought it was him protecting himself, and not a big deal.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

$30k on a credit card is a LOT. I worry when I have more than $3k on a card.

You telling him you don't need him to help with household bills is where you are dead wrong. It's HIS freaking household. Yes I understand that he pays the mortgage but he eats what you buy at the grocery store; he uses the electricity to wash his clothes; his children -- those 3 people he deliberately brought into this world with you -- need food & the household utilities. He therefore needs to contribute to those bills.

You two really have to re-work the financial split here to be more equitable in terms of your respective earnings.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> To me that's the point. HIS life long plans. It should be THEIR life long plans that they make together. They are supposed to be in a committed marriage, but he acts as if he is single, making plans for himself but not his family. Not contributing his fair share to the costs of day to day bills.


@Diana7 you are very quick to assume many things, even on other threads 
He is not thinking just about himself, according to @LoveMy3Kids


LoveMy3Kids said:


> * He has insisted that I do not need to worry about my own retirement funds because I will have his money*





LoveMy3Kids said:


> Would it be unreasonable to hope he picks up some of the extras we cut out on behalf of the kids if I follow through with it all?


Totally reasonable to pick up the extras, his either *stingy *or he is doing it as a *consequence *for you debt!
You are the only one who knows!
Do you think your husband is stingy? If not then he is doing it to show you some consequences for your debt!


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Kaliber said:


> @Diana7 you are very quick to assume many things, even on other threads
> He is not thinking just about himself, according to @LoveMy3Kids


Yeah but he gets to be in control of that money. Sure OP shouldn't have hidden the debt, but effectively making sure he is the only one that can afford to save is a red flag here.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He’s kept you around because — unlike his exes — you’ve made his life easier (recent finances aside). Love doesn’t factor in.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> To me that's the point. HIS life long plans. It should be THEIR life long plans that they make together. They are supposed to be in a committed marriage, but he acts as if he is single, making plans for himself but not his family. Not contributing his fair share to the costs of day to day bills.


Yup. I wouldn't even partner up with someone that much younger, much less have kids with her, without having that sorted out.

ETA: A few years ago my GF (15 years younger) and I were talking about getting serious. Before I agreed, I made sure I could provide for us as a larger group and meet my own goals. When you create a family, you accept a certain responsibility for all.

Also, this has nothing to do with separate finances. The OP's husband could open a separate account and put enough in there to meet the needs of his kids.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

D0nnivain said:


> $30k on a credit card is a LOT. I worry when I have more than $3k on a card.
> 
> You telling him you don't need him to help with household bills is where you are dead wrong. It's HIS freaking household. Yes I understand that he pays the mortgage but he eats what you buy at the grocery store; he uses the electricity to wash his clothes; his children -- those 3 people he deliberated brought into this word with you -- need food & the household utilities. He therefore needs to contribute to those bills.
> 
> You two really have to re-work the financial split here to be more equitable in terms of your respective earnings.


Yes, it is a lot. He assumed I had about $10k in debt. I openly admit to messing up. Yes the budget needs to be reconfigured when he has digested everything and is willing to discuss it rationally. He trusted me to take care of the bills without incurring astronomical debt, while I trusted him to save for us, while he really is for him. Lessons learned.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, but didn’t he see everything that came in — I assume you weren’t hiding stuff? He wasn’t helping with buying anything or paying for anything but the mortgage? Wouldn’t you think he had to have at least suspected there was a substantial deficit being run in the household with only your salary to cover everything but the mortgage?


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

It would be nice to be able to give you some cheery advice, but running up 30k on an Amazon card is one of those things that usually changes your relationship dynamic for the worse, permanently. Even if you're good enough to admit "oops, I messed up. Learned my lesson!"

Since you're right, you are trapped, I would just do the best I could to placate him until either the kids are grown or he dies of old age. Whichever comes first. Like Melinda Gates did. Then find the best way you can to separate.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

DTO said:


> Yup. I wouldn't even partner up with someone that much younger, much less have kids with her, without having that sorted out.


I've always told him, even before children, that I would not live on a boat in the Caribbean when he retires. So he knows my feelings to an extent. He has never said any specific plans, so I never dwelled on it.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Yes, but didn’t he see everything that came in — I assume you weren’t hiding stuff? He wasn’t helping with buying anything or paying for anything but the mortgage? Wouldn’t you think he had to have at least suspected there was a substantial deficit being run in the household with only your salary to cover everything but the mortgage?


True. He would make comments about the number of boxes coming in. I guess in some respects, we both looked the other way. It is my fault, but he could have asked to see my accounts or ask balances earlier. It's still my fault, but theoretically he could have forced me to open my eyes to it all earlier.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

gaius said:


> It would be nice to be able to give you some cheery advice, but running up 30k on an Amazon card is one of those things that usually changes your relationship dynamic for the worse, permanently. Even if you're good enough to admit "oops, I messed up. Learned my lesson!"
> 
> Since you're right, you are trapped, I would just do the best I could to placate him until either the kids are grown or he dies of old age. Whichever comes first. Like Melinda Gates did. Then find the best way you can to separate.


Ouch. But probably what I will do. I can't take back what I did, but I can learn to live with my actions and make the best of out what I have. What ever happens, happens.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> True. He would make comments about the number of boxes coming in. I guess in some respects, we both looked the other way. It is my fault, but he could have asked to see my accounts or ask balances earlier. It's still my fault, but theoretically he could have forced me to open my eyes to it all earlier.


I suspect he didn’t want to get involved for fear that you might want some of “his” savings to fix it.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> True. He would make comments about the number of boxes coming in. I guess in some respects, we both looked the other way. It is my fault, but he could have asked to see my accounts or ask balances earlier. It's still my fault, but theoretically he could have forced me to open my eyes to it all earlier.


I still don't get why you are beating yourself to death over this.....

I mean, have we established that the expenses were for the kids and house stuff? So then what is the main issue.? Sure, it's a bit of a surprise, but I can't understand why this is such a tragedy, or why he is flipping out over it...

I like to think I am pretty shrewd on a lot of things, but to be honest, I wouldn't think this is a big issue-not for a minute......Even if I _hated _my spouse, I wouldn't gripe if the debt was incurred for stuff for the kids, and family vacations, and other household expenses...This is standard stuff that every family or head of household does...So maybe they budgeted it differently, but at the end of the day, its still what would be considered practical expenses and not frivolity...

I just don't see this as something that can't be overcome...If it is, and the facts you have laid out are true, then this guy is just an aszhole....


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Yeah but he gets to be in control of that money. Sure OP shouldn't have hidden the debt, but effectively making sure he is the only one that can afford to save is a red flag here.


Plus if they end up divorced there goes her retirement money.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

hamadryad said:


> I mean, have we established that the expenses were for the kids and house stuff? So then what is the main issue.?
> 
> I like to think I am pretty shrewd on a lot of things,


Women don't run up 30k on an Amazon card only buying stuff for the house and kids. She even admitted in one post she had a shopping addiction.

And if you're trying to humble brag about how much money you have that you wouldn't care if that happened to you, keep in mind in this particular case she wiped out almost half her husband's savings. However much money you have, pretend you had a wife and she wiped out almost half your savings buying stuff on Amazon she didn't need. When you're at the age of 60 looking to retire. You wouldn't care? Of course you would. Only a fool wouldn't.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

gaius said:


> Women don't run up 30k on an Amazon card only buying stuff for the house and kids. She even admitted in one post she had a shopping addiction.
> 
> And if you're trying to humble brag about how much money you have that you wouldn't care if that happened to you, keep in mind in this particular case she wiped out almost half her husband's savings. However much money you have, pretend you had a wife and she wiped out almost half your savings buying stuff on Amazon she didn't need. When you're at the age of 60 looking to retire. You wouldn't care? Of course you would. Only a fool wouldn't.


She hasn't wiped out any of his savings. She is paying this debt off.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

gaius said:


> Women don't run up 30k on an Amazon card only buying stuff for the house and kids. She even admitted in one post she had a shopping addiction.
> 
> And if you're trying to humble brag about how much money you have that you wouldn't care if that happened to you, keep in mind in this particular case she wiped out almost half her husband's savings. However much money you have, pretend you had a wife and she wiped out almost half your savings buying stuff on Amazon she didn't need. When you're at the age of 60 looking to retire. You wouldn't care? Of course you would. Only a fool wouldn't.


We don't know how long it took to run up that number, and I can tell you(from actual experience, btw) that kids under 10(3 no less) will run your wallet dry at every turn... It's always something...I didn't see any mention of frequent botox treatments and 400 dollar haircuts...Did you? Where are you getting the assumption that it was all unnecessary stuff?

Anyway, If only 30K will wipe half of his savings out-at 60 no less, then he better forget about retirement, anyway- he can't afford it, even without paying the 30K back... How does he expect to pay for college when he is 75+ and retired? Fairy dust?


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> When you're in debt (or saving for retirement) buying things you don't need is a problem.
> Nobody NEEDs a holiday, new car or Halloween costume.
> 
> And personally, I don't need a woman that insists on having those things.
> ...


To be clear, I am Dave Ramsey-ish. I live debt free and would never have a car payment again. That being said, when my husband and I were getting out of debt we did not restrict our child from things that are a lasting memory. We still took him to get ice cream and would go to an amusement park for a day, but restricted ourselves when it came to personal things. It added 1 additional year to our 3 years of getting out of debt (we paid off 180k in debt). Spending $20 on a costume isnt going to keep him from retiring in 5 years. His reluctance and outright avoidance to being a fianancial partner by keeping his head in the sand would. They need to be on a serious budget but not to the point that the kids cant participate in something as simple as Halloween. OP needs to get a grip.

I never said $25,000 isnt a significant amount, but it doesnt make sense to have interest accrueing debt while that money is sitting in savings. He sounds like a financial dunce. Along with his daydream of retiring with small children. He is being unrealistic. It would take me about 3 or 4 months to pay off 25,000 in debt, but again, I live debt free and have a six figure income without my husband's contribution.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> We don't know how long it took to run up that number, and I can tell you(from actual experience, btw) that kids under 10(3 no less) will run your wallet dry at every turn... It's always something...I didn't see any mention of frequent botox treatments and 400 dollar haircuts...Did you? Where are you getting the assumption that it was all unnecessary stuff?
> 
> Anyway, If only 30K will wipe half of his savings out-at 60 no less, then he better forget about retirement, anyway- he can't afford it without paying the 30K back... How does he expect to pay for college when he is 75+ and retired? Fairy dust?


THISS!!!! Does OP's husband have any clue how much money you need to actually retire? If all he has is 60k in savings, he better buckle up for another 10 years. What a joke. Maybe he intends on cutting everyone off and hoarding his funds as if he only has to worry about himself? Id kick him to the curb, quite honestly. Being greedy is disgusting - and that is comeing from the bread winner's perspective. I would never withhold money from my husband like that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I guess on his part, he should explain to me how he intends to fund his retirement. It has all been vague numbers, and so far "in the future". How do we pay healthcare when it's through his insurance if he's retired? He has insisted that I do not need to worry about my own retirement funds because I will have his money, but where will his money be if he needs it for us to live?
> 
> Guess we need to have a much more in depth conversation than just my irresponsible credit cards.


This exactly. Healthcare is huge - a plan for the family will cost at $10k a year for the family. That might even be low - my policy through work for me alone (good HMO plus dental) is $7k.

Saying you'll have his money after he's gone sounds like nonsense. Does he have a pension or insurance that will pay until you and him both pass? Does he have a big chunk of money set aside that is likely to outlast him? What if we hit an extended period where investment returns stink (like 10 to 20 years ago)?

On average, someone 60 right now will live to 85. That's 20 years without a job. You guys need to figure out how much income he needs to have - the rule of thumb is 80% but it might be higher because you have a young family. Then you need to figure out how to have that without a job.

ASAP.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

D0nnivain said:


> $30k on a credit card is a LOT. I worry when I have more than $3k on a card.
> 
> You telling him you don't need him to help with household bills is where you are dead wrong. It's HIS freaking household. Yes I understand that he pays the mortgage but he eats what you buy at the grocery store; he uses the electricity to wash his clothes; his children -- those 3 people he deliberated brought into this word with you -- need food & the household utilities. He therefore needs to contribute to those bills.
> 
> You two really have to re-work the financial split here to be more equitable in terms of your respective earnings.


I agree with this poster - OP. You are in this mess because you took on more than you could handle. The learning experience here is to communicate and give him realistic numbers for a budget. Dont ask for $500 if the real cost is $1000. Be transparent so he knows what is going on as well.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

DTO said:


> o)?
> 
> On average, someone 60 right now will live to 85. That's 20 years without a job. You guys need to figure out how much income he needs to have - the rule of thumb is 80% but it might be higher because you have a young family. Then you need to figure out how to have that without a job.
> 
> ASAP.


And bear in mind, practically every one in his age group has kids that are already likely done with college....I can't imagine what I would be thinking if I were in his shoes...Also, as kids get older they need more expensive stuff before then....Expensive electronics(not just games, but phones, laptops, etc)...if they are involved in sports and wind up on travel teams and such, the expenses are unreal....What do you tell them? No?


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## Noman (Oct 17, 2014)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I never questioned the separate bank accounts. He was divorced, so I thought it was him protecting himself, and not a big deal.


I haven't read the entire thread, apologies, but he may be divorced, but he's also married, to YOU!

Husbands & wives are supposed to be a team, not two people, off doing their own thing, hiding money from each other.

You have some credit card debt, not good, but it can be resolved in various ways.

More important to me is his squirreling away his pay & apparently stringing you along because he's "close to retirement" but is still willing to father 3 children with you. They're HIS responsibility too!

I'd find a lawyer and see about having what sounds like a substantial amount of income added to the family pot.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> And bear in mind, practically every one in his age group has kids that are already likely done with college....I can't imagine what I would be thinking if I were in his shoes...Also, as kids get older they need more expensive stuff before then....Expensive electronics(not just games, but phones, laptops, etc)...if they are involved in sports and wind up on travel teams and such, the expenses are unreal....What do you tell them? No?


Exactly! Why father three children if you are going to force them to sacrifice normal kid experiences. No, they don’t need crazy vacations every year but they should be able to do athletics/some sort of extra curricular. His retirement plan is unrealistic and selfish.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Yeah but he gets to be in control of that money. Sure OP shouldn't have hidden the debt, but effectively making sure he is the only one that can afford to save is a red flag here.


I'm in control of the money I earned, if I wasn't there wouldn't be any money and I'd be working again.
Same with the OP, entirely normal with most marriages all over the world, one partner deals with the money.
My BiL, on the other hand, is required to hand his unopened pay envelope over to his wife every month (she opens it and hands him $10 for beer).


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'm in control of the money I earned, if I wasn't there wouldn't be any money and I'd be working again.
> Same with the OP, entirely normal with most marriages all over the world, one partner deals with the money.
> My BiL, on the other hand, is required to hand his unopened pay envelope over to his wife every month (she opens it and hands him $10 for beer).


Both situations you described are ridiculous. Why be married if you are going to live as if you are singular? It shouldn’t be one person paying the bills and the other getting an allowance. You really think the breadwinner should get to hoard money while the other person just has to “figure it out”, plus managing the child related expenses? 

You BIL also needs to grow a pair and stop his weird parent/child relationship with money.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> How does he expect to pay for college when he is 75+ and retired? Fairy dust?


Corporate pension is the usual way.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> And bear in mind, practically every one in his age group has kids that are already likely done with college....I can't imagine what I would be thinking if I were in his shoes...Also, as kids get older they need more expensive stuff before then....Expensive electronics(not just games, but phones, laptops, etc)...if they are involved in sports and wind up on travel teams and such, the expenses are unreal....What do you tell them? No?


Nobody needs phones or laptops, most of the world population don't have them and still manage to live.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

hamadryad said:


> I still don't get why you are beating yourself to death over this.....
> 
> I mean, have we established that the expenses were for the kids and house stuff? So then what is the main issue.? Sure, it's a bit of a surprise, but I can't understand why this is such a tragedy, or why he is flipping out over it...
> 
> ...


Omg, thank you. Yes, 99% of what I buy is for our kids or the house. I just happened to keep buying things when I saw I had money in my checking account, forgetting that I was automatically charging it. The most amount of money I spent was expensive jewelry for his daughter's 30th birthday this year, which he knew about it. 

This all just happened over the last few days, so I am just using this post as a way of helping wrap my head around the whole situation. I thank you for agreeing with me that this can be overcome. It is up to him to accept that, or make his own financial situation that much worse because forcing a separation before this is cleared up. It's a lot of money, but I can do this, and certainly will never let this happen again.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

moulinyx said:


> I agree with this poster - OP. You are in this mess because you took on more than you could handle. The learning experience here is to communicate and give him realistic numbers for a budget. Dont ask for $500 if the real cost is $1000. Be transparent so he knows what is going on as well.





moulinyx said:


> THISS!!!! *Does OP's husband have any clue how much money you need to actually retire? If all he has is 60k in savings, he better buckle up for another 10 years.* What a joke. Maybe he intends on cutting everyone off and hoarding his funds as if he only has to worry about himself? Id kick him to the curb, quite honestly. Being greedy is disgusting - and that is comeing from the bread winner's perspective. I would never withhold money from my husband like that.


The 70k my husband has in the savings account is "rainy day" savings, NOT his retirement. He has probably a million in his retirement accounts. He also has an inheritance coming to him, but he doesn't plan his retirement with that money, because his father is still alive and we'd rather he live long and use it up himself. I still don't think he is realistic about retirement, but that could just be me being nervous about earning more than him when he retires. The house will be paid off in 10 years max, but probably sooner. 

I think we both need to be completely open about our finances. My not wanting/needing to know details about his retirement accounts and plans for his actual retirement hasn't helped.

I don't think this "set-back" needs to be the end of the world. We haven't made an up to date budget in a long time. I will be earning extra to pay off the debt, and once that is done, we will be one year closer to his retiring, and will have more money available to save. If this hadn't blown up in my face, I could have kept going without clearing up the debt, and just muddling along. I messed up, but I'm on a better path now. He can accept it, or just stay mad.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Nobody needs phones or laptops, most of the world population don't have them and still manage to live.


That's not exactly realistic in our situation. True, phones and laptops are not needed to live, although in our area, the kids are given laptops by the school. It's part of life these days. Phones are also not a problem for us as my company pays for all of our phones and tablets. He can't take that away from us.

The electronics are actually the least of the expenses. My husband finds sports very important for the kids, and soccer for our 6 year just cost me $1000, and he was ok with that. I paid $900 for 2 weeks of half day camps for the boys. He was fine with that. It's expensive to have kids! But we don't pay for childcare which many people do.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

gaius said:


> Women don't run up 30k on an Amazon card only buying stuff for the house and kids. She even admitted in one post she had a shopping addiction.
> 
> And if you're trying to humble brag about how much money you have that you wouldn't care if that happened to you, keep in mind in this particular case she wiped out almost half her husband's savings. However much money you have, pretend you had a wife and she wiped out almost half your savings buying stuff on Amazon she didn't need. When you're at the age of 60 looking to retire. You wouldn't care? Of course you would. Only a fool wouldn't.


Hm, so suddenly it's only my husband's savings? Not "our" savings? And the $30k wasn't overnight, and not only from Amazon. I think it's normal to care, but some of the wording is a bit harsh. It will be paid off.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Hm, so suddenly it's only my husband's savings? Not "our" savings? And the $30k wasn't overnight, and not only from Amazon. I think it's normal to care, but some of the wording is a bit harsh. It will be paid off.


But it was still from a lot of stuff you really didn't need. Not like it was only diapers and formula, like hamadryad is trying to make it out to be. 

I'm really not trying to be harsh. Just honest about what a guy in your husband's position might think and feel. The law might consider it your savings but if he's the one that saved it I'm sure he feels like you just set him back a few steps in his personal goals.

I'm sure you will clear the debt at some point. But working overnight shifts is going to take a lot out of you and your husband and children probably will be affected by it. Especially if you're the primary caretaker. I pull overnight shifts occasionally and it's not easy. You got a rough road ahead of you LoveMy3Kids.


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Nobody needs phones or laptops, most of the world population don't have them and still manage to live.


It is okay for people to want to live above bare minimum food and shelter requirements. People work hard to enjoy the fruits of their labor. I hope your realize your experience is not the norm. $24,000 would not pay two years of bills for a five person household in the United States. While your lifestyle works for you, it isn’t the way everyone would like to live.





gaius said:


> But it was still from a lot of stuff you really didn't need. Not like it was only diapers and formula, like hamadryad is trying to make it out to be.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be harsh. Just honest about what a guy in your husband's position might think and feel. The law might consider it your savings but if he's the one that saved it I'm sure he feels like you just set him back a few steps in his personal goals.
> 
> I'm sure you will clear the debt at some point. But working overnight shifts is going to take a lot out of you and your husband and children probably will be affected by it. Especially if you're the primary caretaker. I pull overnight shifts occasionally and it's not easy. You got a rough road ahead of you LoveMy3Kids.


That’s the thing though. OP just states she spent $900 on two weeks of some sort of camp for the kids. The husband knows these events are happening and chooses to be financially ignorant about how it’s being paid for. Does she think she is shaking her a$$ on a secret onlyfans account or something? He needs to pony up and be a part of the conversation. 30k can accumulate very quickly. It isn’t the $30 here or there on amazon. It’s vacations, sports, and milestone gifts such as a birthday or anniversary.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

moulinyx said:


> That’s the thing though. OP just states she spent $900 on two weeks of some sort of camp for the kids. The husband knows these events are happening and chooses to be financially ignorant about how it’s being paid for. Does she think she is shaking her a$$ on a secret onlyfans account or something? He needs to pony up and be a part of the conversation. 30k can accumulate very quickly. It isn’t the $30 here or there on amazon. It’s vacations, sports, and milestone gifts such as a birthday or anniversary.


I wouldn't assume her husband is completely ignorant. She said in the first post she works two jobs, makes a reasonable amount of money working from home. He probably has an idea of what she makes, what she spends on the kids and thought she could afford it. What escaped him was probably all the extra spending that he didn't account for or know about and the interest on the credit cards. Which led to the debt in question.

I don't have a breakdown of their finances so I don't know if his expectations of her are unreasonable or not. But pretending this was all just due to basic kid expenses, like you and someone else seem determined to do for some reason probably won't help their relationship.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Thank you for your advice. I am well aware of money issues and marriage.


Since you have the knowledge, you have to take action. But I guess you're well aware of that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Corporate pension is the usual way.


The usual way? Do you know that practically no one outside of government employees have one?

In this case, if he had a good pension he probably would not freak out over the credit card debt.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

DTO said:


> The usual way? Do you know that practically no one outside of government employees have one?
> In this case, if he had a good pension he probably would not freak out over the credit card debt.


If my wife ran up any sort debt, I wouldn't pay it, full stop.
As far as I know credit cards are unsecured debt, you don't need to repay it unless you want.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> The most amount of money I spent was *expensive jewelry for his daughter's 30th birthday *this year, which he knew about it.


OK, here is your first payment on that debt - he needs to write you a check for that amount.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> If my wife ran up any sort debt, I wouldn't pay it, full stop.
> As far as I know credit cards are unsecured debt, you don't need to repay it unless you want.


Well, that's you and your situation, as was said earlier. Here is the U.S. at least, credit cards are joint debt unless you have the right legal set-up (prenup and so on). Saying "that's not mine" only works if she's willing to take it all on.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> The 70k my husband has in the savings account is "rainy day" savings, NOT his retirement. He has probably a million in his retirement accounts. He also has an inheritance coming to him, but he doesn't plan his retirement with that money, because his father is still alive and we'd rather he live long and use it up himself. I still don't think he is realistic about retirement, but that could just be me being nervous about earning more than him when he retires. The house will be paid off in 10 years max, but probably sooner.


A million is not enough if all you have is that and Social Security (no other pension or annuity). Conservatively, you can spend 3% of your starting nest egg yearly and have reasonable assurance that you won't run out of money. So that 3% will generate $30,000 a year in income. How does that plus Social Security stack up against his current income and benefits (health insurance) - at least over the next 10 years until the house is paid off?

It's good that you're not counting a potential inheritance. He might be much less or nothing at all, depending on how his father's own retirement plays out.

Who is nervous about you earning more than him, and why?



LoveMy3Kids said:


> I think we both need to be completely open about our finances. My not wanting/needing to know details about his retirement accounts and plans for his actual retirement hasn't helped.


Yes, 100%. You depend on each other so there has to be clear communication.



LoveMy3Kids said:


> I don't think this "set-back" needs to be the end of the world. We haven't made an up to date budget in a long time. I will be earning extra to pay off the debt, and once that is done, we will be one year closer to his retiring, and will have more money available to save. If this hadn't blown up in my face, I could have kept going without clearing up the debt, and just muddling along. I messed up, but I'm on a better path now. He can accept it, or just stay mad.


Agreed on all fronts.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Josh_123123 said:


> OK so here's what I'm understanding:
> 
> 1. you guys keep separate finances
> 2. he kicks in a little to contribute to household bills
> ...


i removed the link you posted to an online shopping site. Do do that again.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Sfort said:


> You're not going to fix this problem until you learn about money and marriages. I hope you read my recommendation for Dave Ramsey. Money is the number one cause of divorce in the US.


This is more a relationship problem than a financial one.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> I was considering leaving him anyway because of how horrible he can be. I've been through therapy, and my therapist says he's abusive. I honestly think he may have some sort of personality disorder. He can be good, and he is hard working, but that's not quite enough.
> 
> I would not be with him if we did not have children.


Read your own comment here. Read it again. Look at that last line. Read it one more time just to be sure. 

I recommend you insist on marriage counseling to help with both your relationship and shared finances, or you are leaving.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> Omg, thank you. Yes, 99% of what I buy is for our kids or the house. I just happened to keep buying things when I saw I had money in my checking account, forgetting that I was automatically charging it. *The most amount of money I spent was expensive jewelry for his daughter's 30th birthday this year, which he knew about it.*


And since the expensive jewelry was for HIS daughter, did he kick in for the expense of it, or did that fall solely on you?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

LoveMy3Kids said:


> The 70k my husband has in the savings account is "rainy day" savings, NOT his retirement. He has probably a million in his retirement accounts. He also has an inheritance coming to him, but he doesn't plan his retirement with that money, because his father is still alive and we'd rather he live long and use it up himself. I still don't think he is realistic about retirement, but that could just be me being nervous about earning more than him when he retires. The house will be paid off in 10 years max, but probably sooner.
> 
> I think we both need to be completely open about our finances. My not wanting/needing to know details about his retirement accounts and plans for his actual retirement hasn't helped.
> 
> I don't think this "set-back" needs to be the end of the world. We haven't made an up to date budget in a long time. I will be earning extra to pay off the debt, and once that is done, we will be one year closer to his retiring, and will have more money available to save. If this hadn't blown up in my face, I could have kept going without clearing up the debt, and just muddling along. I messed up, but I'm on a better path now. He can accept it, or just stay mad.


Just need to say, @LoveMy3Kids that you seem to have a pretty level head on your shoulders, and are approaching this calmly and rationally. Whichever way it turns out, you and your kids will be alright.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Josh_123123 said:


> OK so here's what I'm understanding:
> 
> 1. you guys keep separate finances
> 2. he kicks in a little to contribute to household bills
> ...


Hey @Josh_123123 and @EleGirl, I posted this exact post on Page 1 (Post #5). I've reported Josh's post, but just thought I'd make y'all aware of this weirdness. Really not sure why someone would copy-paste word for word as if it's their own post.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Ursula said:


> Hey @Josh_123123 and @EleGirl, I posted this exact post on Page 1 (Post #5). I've reported Josh's post, but just thought I'd make y'all aware of this weirdness. Really not sure why someone would copy-paste word for word as if it's their own post.


Probably because they hid a link in it (and the link’s now been removed by a mod).


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Ursula said:


> Just need to say, @LoveMy3Kids that you seem to have a pretty level head on your shoulders, and are approaching this calmly and rationally. Whichever way it turns out, you and your kids will be alright.


Thank you for this; it really comforts me. 

Yes, everything will be ok. It might be tough, but we'll get through it.

I think my husband is calming down too, which is helpful. Our relationship is the issue, and that's not something I know we can fix, but that is nothing new. If anything, once I clean my mess up (which has already started!), I think I will end up emotionally stronger, and can make decisions that I haven't felt capable of so far. I will take this as a learning experience.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

Ursula said:


> And since the expensive jewelry was for HIS daughter, did he kick in for the expense of it, or did that fall solely on you?


It did fall on me, but it was my idea. I actually had him write her a check (probably $200 as that is his typical amount he writes her) because I didn't think she would realize how expensive the bracelet was. She knew I was the one who picked it out as soon as she got it because he is not thoughtful like that, and she commented that she has never given any fine jewelry ever before. 

He is calming down, and is talking about "giving" me money at the end of the month to add to my credit card payments after he sees my spending for the month. So maybe he is willing to work a bit with me to get this done, as he calms down. Hopefully he is starting to realize it was not done with any ill intentions. Just complacency and ignorance. Not to be repeated.


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## LoveMy3Kids (Sep 1, 2021)

gaius said:


> But it was still from a lot of stuff you really didn't need. Not like it was only diapers and formula, like hamadryad is trying to make it out to be.
> 
> I'm really not trying to be harsh. Just honest about what a guy in your husband's position might think and feel. The law might consider it your savings but if he's the one that saved it I'm sure he feels like you just set him back a few steps in his personal goals.
> 
> I'm sure you will clear the debt at some point. But working overnight shifts is going to take a lot out of you and your husband and children probably will be affected by it. Especially if you're the primary caretaker. I pull overnight shifts occasionally and it's not easy. You got a rough road ahead of you LoveMy3Kids.


I agree that it was not all necessary items. I've found quickly how unnecessary so many things are! I just don't think it's entirely fair that it's only his savings (not 50/50 savings as he earns more) but he openly knew that I was not able to save anything, and he accepted that he would be the one to save for both of us. I may not have expressed that clearly.

It's a tough road, but temporary. I will try the job as long as the benefits outweigh the difficulties. We shall see!


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Theseus said:


> This is more a relationship problem than a financial one.


The two are inextricably intertwined.


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