# Thought on Hard Work and "R"



## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

I have reviewed a lot of threads and seen the comments from many about Successful and Nonsuccessful "R". Many of the Successful "R" cite how their marriages are better and the WS has done the hard work to make the marriage better. Some even have stated that the affair helped to make a better marriage.

This leaves me at a loss, because I think that if the WS was doing the work necessary for the marriage at the time of the Affair the marriage would be as "Good" or have the potential to be as "Good" as they now say it is.

Generally in the threads the BS who has successfully "R" with the WS has now become more viligant, is not as trusting as before and has to deal with the Emotional Issues from the Affair that occur over time because of "Triggers" etc. In short they have changed how they now deal with their spouses and are no longer the same individual. Is this always for the better?

I do not believe that most BS need a 2x4 in the head to understand and relate to their Significant Other for a Better Marriage. When a WS has the affair they have forever changed the dynamic of the relationship and the Marriage has lost the potential for being as "Good or Great" as it could be. In essence the WS has taken away the opportunity for this marriage to be the Best relationship between the two.

Any two people who can SUCCESSFULLY "R" have really both done the hard work to overcome the Nuclear Bomb in a relationship but it appears to come at a heavy price of the loss of trust etc. and the changes in the personality to the BS because no matter what happens from now on that incident and how the BS had to deal with the damage will always be in the BS's mind. 

The BS has to now deviate from their values for the "R" to work. It is not only the WS who has to do the Hard Work but the BS has to be able to internally change otherwise, the Hard Work means nothing. 

Just some thought this morning. Gosh, I hate the long drive to work.


----------



## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

I have had the same thoughts. Not been part of an infidellity my self but my brother had a really bad one.

I would realy like to know from the BS how they can claim that the M is better than it ever was.

For me the triggers must be gone, trust must again be there, forgivness must have been given, the WS must come to termes with their own inner demons but I find it hard to see how all theese can be resolved 100%

I don't find it difficult to understand that parts of the M could get a lot better. Communication, sex etc but I would find it har to drop all triggers, mental pictures etc compleetly.


----------



## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

In my own journey, I've noticed a few things about reconciliation. First, however, I must say that I haven't ever deviated from my own values in any way. I don't think any BS needs to do that. Either one can forgive or they cannot. My values changed for not due to Regret's affair.

I'd also like to say that for me, the affair certainly didn't create a "better" marriage at all. What it did was rip apart what our marriage was and it was up to me to decide to create another marriage. That was totally my decision to stay. And it was my decision to forgive and recreate what was killed by the affair.

The WS would never give the attention to the marriage during the affair than they would if given the opportunity to reconcile. That's just the reality. When the ego feed of an affair takes over their brain...well, they've already left the marriage. They may live two separate lives during the affair and claim that they loved their BS throughout the time, but I honestly don't understand how they can - even with the compartmentalization. Maybe I don't understand because I don't have the ability to do that.

While I agree that the loss of trust due to the affair is one of the more difficult things to deal with, it can be overcome. I'm almost a year out from Dday and I can say that on most days I don't give it a second thought. When something unexpected comes up at work for her and she's going to be late, there have been times that I've had that fear creep up inside. It's not every time, but that's enough.

It's like when I was a kid and was at my best friend's house. He had a beautiful German Shepherd. We went out back to throw ball with the dog and oddly enough, at one point the dog came over and latched onto my leg pretty badly. I was scared of dogs for a long time. I'd see a dog and immediately be afraid. A few years later, my family bought a dog. Interacting with the dog on a daily basis, I learned to trust him. He never bit me. While I won't go up to a strange dog to pet it, I'm not immediately fightened.

Communication now is what is should have been all along. It's not that it's better...it's simply that it is happening. I'm not saying that's okay that a WS closes down to the BS with emotions, feelings and hell...just normal every day stuff. What I'm saying is that most couples who have gone through infidelity and chose to reconcile find that communication again (unless they never had it and that's another story).

In my case, I didn't need a 2x4...she did. And I hit her pretty hard with it on Dday. So hard that she snapped out of her sh-t immediately. Again, our marriage ended that night. This is a new one. Hopefully, neither of us ever takes it for granted.


----------



## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Prior to this train wreck that I have ( story in sig.). My wife had a EA which was not properly addressed by us as a couple. I eventually ( 4 years ) got over it beyond some minor issues. But nothing that I would ever bring up as I knew it was me freaking out or my own insecurities, nutshell nothing she was doing.

About 6 years after the EA I caught my wife looking to meet her old boyfriend. I only seen one email but in counseling she admitted to a few mor and admitted to trolling. The week I caught her I literally was super mad. She would cook dinner I would toss all the dishes, food and all into the garbage. 

End result my friend / coworker was with me at work when I found this all out. Later on my friend said to me he felt we actually came out stronger from that incident. I agreed, just something had changed. Yes did I have issues, but again I kept them to myself as I wanted to fix this. I eventually just got over it. I did have one trigger when she was going out once a year with her coworkers for a small xmas party. But again I sucked it up and just told myself to stop being an A$$hole. The trigger was minor. I have been worried about other things much more then the triggers.

Sadly this time around I was right to be worried, but that is another story.

I don't think you need to beat the WS over the head for years though. I've known spouses 7 years later still having issues. There does a come a time when enough is enough and this is coming from a BS.


----------



## StarGazer101 (Jan 26, 2013)

My marriage was destroyed when he climbed into bed with his AP.
I will never wear those rings again or celebrate that marriage anniversary regardless of what happens in the future. 

We are currently trying to R. ( and often struggling) If we do manage to work things out it will be a new relationship. We'll have learned from what we got wrong, and done some hard work on really looking at ourselves and how we care for and interact with each other and making changes to try and get it right this time. It will never be the same as it was but that's no bad thing for us.

If we get to a safe place with this, then we will renew our vows and this time we'll be doing it with a real understanding of what they mean and how to ensure we truly honour them.


----------



## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

rrrbbbttt said:


> I have reviewed a lot of threads and seen the comments from many about Successful and Nonsuccessful "R". Many of the Successful "R" cite how their marriages are better and the WS has done the hard work to make the marriage better. Some even have stated that the affair helped to make a better marriage.
> 
> This leaves me at a loss, because I think that if the WS was doing the work necessary for the marriage at the time of the Affair the marriage would be as "Good" or have the potential to be as "Good" as they now say it is.
> 
> ...



.....if my wife (the WS), had an open mind, I'd force feed to her everything you wrote. And maybe then she'd understand that even if a reconciliation is the path that the marriage has taken ...that it's been forever changed ....and as many have noted ...has actually died. 

....none of the hard work / heavy-lifting that is so often referred to has ever been done by her. To this day, she refuses to let me know the name of the OM, where he lived, how she "ended it" ...or the details of the PA. I was told to "get over it" and we'll move on. 

....now ....the "R" is going on 17 years ...and my anger has peaked to levels that even I (_someone who "does anger" pretty well ...just ask the many doors with fist holes in them_) ...has not seen. Her smug attitude about the whole issue infuriates me, and has me seriously weighing my options about staying or ending all of this mess. I have been the one that has done all of the hard work ...I have been the one to deal with all the triggers ....the sense of embarrassment / shame ....and to have to walk on eggshells regarding the A, because she just wants to "put it in the past" (_THAT'S the level of hard work that she's had to endure ...pretty selfishly lame if you ask me_)

....I embarked on this mini-rant by reading the part about lost trust. There are so many things in a normal daily routine that involve trust ....but when you have none regarding your spouse ...on a 24/7 basis ...it eats at your soul. What actually triggered this rant, is my wife revealing to me that she is going to go on a trip to Florida with her girlfriends (high school era friends) in about a month or so. I objected vehemently to this because I simply don't trust her ....and I don't trust her friends either. "Friends" will 'cover' for one another regarding indiscretions ...and well, let's say it was her former circle of 'friends' that egged her on regarding her PA, and I simply don't trust her circle of female friends ...none of which have been married ...and hop from one relationship to another.

.....bottom line is that in my younger years, I was a very trusting individual. That's all gone now ...partly because life in general makes you more wary ...but mostly because of what my wife did. And THAT is what angers me so ...THAT ONE PERSON can so negatively impact your everyday actions.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

rrrbbbttt said:


> I do not believe that most BS need a 2x4 in the head to understand and relate to their Significant Other for a Better Marriage. When a WS has the affair they have forever changed the dynamic of the relationship and the Marriage has lost the potential for being as "Good or Great" as it could be. In essence the WS has taken away the opportunity for this marriage to be the Best relationship between the two.
> 
> Any two people who can SUCCESSFULLY "R" have really both done the hard work to overcome the Nuclear Bomb in a relationship but it appears to come at a heavy price of the loss of trust etc. and the changes in the personality to the BS because no matter what happens from now on that incident and how the BS had to deal with the damage will always be in the BS's mind.


You make a great point rrrbbbttt. As well as the WS behaves; despite the remorse and heavy lifting, the BS will always have that cross to bare. Even if the WS remains faithful, the marriage will never be the same, at least not to the BS.

Our R is an enigma, but perhaps not that unusual. We get along better than we ever have, we don't take each other for granted as we did in the past, sex is good, she's affectionate, we don't fight. If this had been the case before her affair, I agree, the potential for a "happy ever after" scenario would be much greater.

But, until I learn how to vanquish the mind movies, triggers, loss of self respect, and intermittent resentment; it will be a struggle. I'll always wonder why it couldn't be that way before; what could have been. I'll never forget what my wife did to me.

So count me as one who believes that an affair can't make a marriage better. The nuclear aftermath may affect positive changes; but those changes could have happened before. What's left is a tenuous and pensive struggle by the BS, to reconcile negative emotions with (if fortunate enough) new found marital harmony.

When I read the stories of of successful R's, it seems that some BS's are better at it than me.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

You know, I used to think like that too. I’d think “we could have done all this without the trauma of adultery; So we still have less than we could have achieved”. I really hate admitting it, but it isn’t true; at least not for me.

I’m not quite sure how to say this right. You ever see someone just go through the motions without really buying into what you are working on? You’ve met the person... they are the ones saying their way is the best way to do it; they believe they know better. You can get them to do it ‘the company way’, but their heart isn’t in it and they will default back to their own method once out of eyeshot... Spouses are like that. To change, you have to want and believe in it on a personal level.

I just sort of needed to see and strongly feel ‘my way’ was flawed and repeating it would continue to hurt me. Even with the first round of R, I clung to the belief I could nice my wayward into my arms. I had to have those notions ripped out in a most painful way in a false-R; And I’m talking hitting rock-bottom so you cringe at how you used to approach it instead of thinking ‘it could have worked if only.... ’. Only then, was I willing to buy in and explore different methods because my old ways were detested. So what changes the most is just how you approach life again. The ideology, dreams, expectations, etc. are re-evaluated.... and you make changes. 

In a good R, both spouses go through this on some very deep levels and there are major perception swaps about who this other person is. Trauma is a catylst for change. You don’t change for others, you change for yourself. I’m not sure you could of approached me or my wife and told us we were doing it wrong and were doomed to failure; We might of even agreed and saw your point... but we would have defaulted back to our own way and continued to think our way was right thus sabotaging these “new ways” just to prove they don’t work.

Make sense?


----------



## CH (May 18, 2010)

It's a work in progress for the rest of our lives together. Just like any marriage but the only difference is that my wife and I have this 3 million pound elephant in the room we have to deal with from time to time.


----------



## EverRain (Jun 6, 2012)

I am completely in agreement that an affair can't make a marriage better... Something will forever be changed in my heart and soul, the love story I once had is gone. I have not put my wedding band back on as I feel like the vows surrounding it are broken. 

My WH had an EA, since Dday he has been the perfect role model for reconciling. He is attentive to many more of my needs than he ever was before, he has taken full responsibility, he was wrong stupid and has begged for forgiveness in tears on many occasions. 

So yes I guess that at the moment I feel like the most special person in the world to him and he is responding and trying to help me feel better and that feels good and helps me heal. But I can't help but struggle with the "why now" and is it sincere or is it that he is afraid to lose me? I do believe that it is sincere on many levels, but despite all this attention there is a constant trigger battle going on in my head, that brings me down and I struggle to keep positive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I am usually pretty careful to NOT say my marriage is better, because it isn't. I think what I usually say is that the marriage I have today is far better than the one I had prior to him cheating. Meaning, like others have said, this one is a totally new ball game.

I also agree with Racer, that sometimes it takes something blowing up in your face to make you realize that what you've been doing wasn't what you should have been doing. I wouldn't wish what I've been through on my worst enemy, but if I hadn't gone through it, would I be where I was today? I don't think so. It's an enigma. It's kind of like scar tissue making something stronger. Without the original trauma, it wouldn't be as strong. Or like fire changing sand into glass. Glass is much stronger than sand, but if there was no fire there'd be no glass.

My husband doing the heavy lifting the way he did from the beginning made it possible for me to take the plunge and do my own later on. I was DONE on D day. No way was I going to give him another chance. But only once I was free of him was I able to clearly see what I really wanted. Only then could i make the CHOICE. If I hadn't kicked him out, I would have seen myself as clinging to him and being needy for him, and that isn't me. I wouldn't like my decision then.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Makes me think of that quote from "The Day the Earth Stood Still". It rings true in so many ways with people...

"It's only on the brink that people find the will to change. Only at the precipice do we evolve. "


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

rrrbbbttt said:


> I have reviewed a lot of threads and seen the comments from many about Successful and Nonsuccessful "R". Many of the Successful "R" cite how their marriages are better and the WS has done the hard work to make the marriage better. Some even have stated that the affair helped to make a better marriage.
> 
> This leaves me at a loss, because I think that if the WS was doing the work necessary for the marriage at the time of the Affair the marriage would be as "Good" or have the potential to be as "Good" as they now say it is.


I approach this cautiously, as a former WS, out of respect to anyone who is, currently, or has been a BS. But, I would like to add something to your 2nd paragraph above..... simply as food for thought. While understanding that although there are always reasons for an affair, there are NEVER justifications for one, what if the spouse, who would eventually become the WS, WAS doing the work necessary for the marriage throughout the marriage and up until the affair? What if the spouse, who would eventually become the BS, was not doing the work necessary for the marriage to survive in spite of their spouse's repeated attempt to communicate their unhappiness in the marriage? What if prior to the infidelity occurring, the future WS did a great deal of work on improving themselves through counseling, weight loss, etc., and spent several years communicating their desire to work with their spouse to improve their marriage, together? What if in spite of all of these efforts by the future WS, the future BS refuses to listen, refuses to change, and actually responds to their spouses attempts to improve themselves and their marriage with indifference at best and hostility at worst. 

Now, imagine that D-Day has come and gone and the BS is shell shocked, devastated and gutted. Now, the BS realizes that their marriage, as they once knew it, has been forever changed, yet acknowledges their own shortcomings in the marriage, along with their refusal to work on it in spite of their WS's pleadings, was a huge factor in the destruction of the pre-A marriage. What if the BS is the spouse that initially wishes to reconcile, after the WS has essentially "checked out" of the marriage, and the BS is now doing all of the work and making all of the changes that the WS had requested that they do for years? 

Do you think that in circumstances such as these that there could be hope for a marriage to reconcile and be as good as, if not better than, their pre-A marriage?

I think there is often a basic assumption on TAM that if only the WS had communicated their unhappiness to their BS spouse prior their infidelity that all would have been well. Many times they did, and their attempts to communicate fell on deaf ears. 

Again, this is just one case scenario that I would be interested in seeing discussed if anyone would care to respond.


----------



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I dont know,its hard.
I pushed for MC,wanted attention and intimacy but nothing worked.
So I got angy and thought this was how it was going to be.
Then she went out and found her ex from hs who was also a ex felon,twice convicted.
Hows that for screwed up.
Picked a semi-homeless player over me...ugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

I want to thank you for those who have responded and I have read and am contemplating all those comments. I note that some have dealt with the subject of "R" by saying that it did not require a change in their own internal code.

My question if you would think and answer:

I do not believe that anyone goes into a relationship with the attitude that they will cheat on another, though in some of the threads here it seems some of the WS are prewired for that.

When you first were married or choose to be one with your Significant Other and this was your internal code:

"If someone I choose to be my mate would disrespect me by cheating on me, I would walk away." 

Now after it has happened and you chose to do the hard work for "R" with your WS and to build a new marriage don't you really think you have changed your internal self?

No disrespect to any have responded that their marriage is better, I do value your opinions and it gives me information from individuals who I know have direct experience from what I am inquiring about.


----------



## margrace (Aug 12, 2012)

rrrbbbttt said:


> I want to thank you for those who have responded and I have read and am contemplating all those comments. I note that some have dealt with the subject of "R" by saying that it did not require a change in their own internal code.
> 
> My question if you would think and answer:
> 
> ...


hi everyone:

this is an interesting question, and i guess part of what's tricky about it is what we mean by "changing your internal self."

i'm in R now (i'm the BS) and yes indeed, there have been changes in my perspective -- ones that i wish i had never had occasion to experience 

but i think that these changes are akin to lots of the things that we come to see other sides of as we actually *experience* a situation (as opposed to just thinking about it in advance).

for example, before people have children, they often have lots of strong convictions about the things that they would _never_ do or _always_ do if they were parents. they certainly believe in what they are saying -- yet they often find, as they experience the reality of parenthood, that there are complexities and considerations and emotions that you can't fully anticipate or evaluate for yourself until you are there. 

and so they may end up choosing to do some of the things that they always swore they would never do. to me, that's because they now stand in a different place that allows a different vantage point, not so much because they changed their internal selves.

that doesn't mean that every experience of R has the ingredients in it to change a BS's vantage point -- we know that some WSs are accountable, remorseful, etc., and some, unfortunately, aren't.

at the same time, some couples _are_ able to bring to R the right pieces of the puzzle to show the BS a path forward that s/he never anticipated. 

and when a BS can see that for the first time, it's because s/he was never *here* to see it before.

just my experience


----------



## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....now ....the "R" is going on 17 years ...
> 
> let's say it was her former circle of 'friends' that egged her on regarding her PA, and I simply don't trust her circle of female friends ...none of which have been married ...and hop from one relationship to another.
> 
> ...


Hi I hear you.

It sounds like you do sense that your Wife may be vulnerable to A/fling/one night stand etc.

That is a hard one. I have something similar myself going over the past three years (possibly earlier).


----------



## newlife94 (Aug 11, 2011)

rrrbbbttt said:


> I want to thank you for those who have responded and I have read and am contemplating all those comments. I note that some have dealt with the subject of "R" by saying that it did not require a change in their own internal code.
> 
> My question if you would think and answer:
> 
> ...


Thank you for talking about this, I struggle with this A LOT!!! 
I have even said this very thing to my H. 
I told him on many occasions that I do not like that I have changed my values and also changed the boundary of what I think is a deal breaker. He said that he does understand how I feel about that~ that said he also said he will never stop doing the hard work to fix what he broke and what he did to me. We actually had the talk before we got married that infidelity is absolutely a deal breaker and not acceptable~ that was 16 years ago. 
I NEVER thought I would forgive something like this and never thought I would change my values to accommodate my WS. I spent lots of time in reflection, many hours in thought and countless hours in IC with my chaplain and family life consultant that the military provides. 
It was a choice I made that I am willing to give him a chance to be the husband he said I deserve. We have been in R for about 14 months now.... good days and many not so good days where I have major triggers and I have mentioned divorce. He has never waivered in his desire to make things right for us and he has given me the support we need to overcome this.
Truthfully, if at any point he were defensive or did not support me emotionally through this~ I am prepared in my mind and heart to leave. I know he loves me, he is sorry and shows true remorse... that is why I have changed and why we are married today.

** I am also willing to and have evaluated my part in how the marital relationship failed and helped to bring us to where the affair happened. Am I responsible for that...NO! However, communication was lacking and we did not find a way to say what needed to be said~ that is where he did not feel validated, I did not feel appreciated and here we are. It is deeper than just saying we did not know how to talk, we know that now.


----------



## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Re: Thought on Hard Work and "R"*



PureLove said:


> Values one must deviate from to make R possible:
> 
> -The basic idea that you deserve to be loved and respected without working hard to win back your spouse's undivided attention
> -Not putting up with blatant disrespect
> ...


Is this really the reality you are living with? If so, you are the primary example of why staying together "for the kids" is not a good enough reason. If this is really what you are living with, I am truly sorry, and I hope you are able to find peace and love at some point in the future. I would also hope that you will print that list out, record yourself reading it out loud, and play it back to yourself on a daily basis. Perhaps after some time passes you will recognize that living like this is unacceptable and is in no way an example of what proper reconcelliation looks like.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

newlife94 said:


> I told him on many occasions that I do not like that I have changed my values and also changed the boundary of what I think is a deal breaker. (...) We actually had the talk before we got married that infidelity is absolutely a deal breaker and not acceptable~ that was 16 years ago. (...)
> 
> I NEVER thought I would forgive something like this and never thought I would change my values to accommodate my WS.


Couple things that helped me. You aren’t changing your core values hopefully. Adultery is a horrible thing to do to your spouse versus adultery is "ok". Please understand that they are your values, as in a part of who you are. Your spouse is not you, nor can you control his values and beliefs. So, you aren’t changing your values, you are learning to understand his values.... He shattered your belief that you were aligned. 

What you are changing internally is the ramification it has to you. It was so easy when you were younger and less intertwined to say the “bravado” words and make a list of what you would divorce over. It is so easy to do when you haven’t faced it yet. 

It’s a good time to look internally and figure out where you stand. Redefine your boundary system. Then evaluate whether or not he has a place in your life. Pre-DD, you just didn’t have to face or really even understand how going through this would really be. You set those values and ramifications based on theoreticals instead of experience. Now you are facing the experience of it all. So don’t hold yourself to your old ‘bravado words’, you have a lot to sort through to reach new decisions about how this affects you and where you want to go.

Your values aren’t so much changed as they are evolving by what you are learning through this horrible experience. Do not beat yourself up because of it... what it really is; is growth.


----------



## Omegaa (Nov 17, 2012)

newlife94 said:


> ** I am also willing to and have evaluated my part in how the marital relationship failed and helped to bring us to where the affair happened. Am I responsible for that...NO! However, communication was lacking and we did not find a way to say what needed to be said~ that is where he did not feel validated, I did not feel appreciated and here we are. It is deeper than just saying we did not know how to talk, we know that now.


Hi

I think you have summed up the key factor in successful R very well.

I had also assumed that this thread was about a couple trying to work on R properly rather than some marriage where one/WS is still engaged in active, ongoing A and the other spouse (BS) is "tolerating" his or her A. To me, the latter isn't R. It's a co-dependency.


----------



## newlife94 (Aug 11, 2011)

Omegaa said:


> Hi
> 
> I think you have summed up the key factor in successful R very well.
> 
> I had also assumed that this thread was about a couple trying to work on R properly rather than some marriage where one/WS is still engaged in active, ongoing A and the other spouse (BS) is "tolerating" his or her A. To me, the latter isn't R. It's a co-dependency.


We both understand our role in how our marriage fell into a place where an A was even possible~ at the time we were dealing with so many different stress events and were naïve that longevity in our marriage was enough to just carry us through it all. We tried to talk, but there were barriers. I suggested counseling but at the time he thought I was just trying to "fix him" and he did not see my intent was for us to be able to communicate more effectively. Ignoring a problem makes it worse~ add on top of that an overseas move, military deployment, my new job, our communication issues and you have a disaster waiting to happen if it is not dealt with. 
Looking back, I see it all so clear. That is why I am able to focus on R, because I know my part and he knows his.... and together we know what we want and HOW to make it stronger now.


----------



## newlife94 (Aug 11, 2011)

Racer said:


> Couple things that helped me. You aren’t changing your core values hopefully. Adultery is a horrible thing to do to your spouse versus adultery is "ok". Please understand that they are your values, as in a part of who you are. Your spouse is not you, nor can you control his values and beliefs. So, you aren’t changing your values, you are learning to understand his values.... He shattered your belief that you were aligned.
> 
> What you are changing internally is the ramification it has to you. It was so easy when you were younger and less intertwined to say the “bravado” words and make a list of what you would divorce over. It is so easy to do when you haven’t faced it yet.
> 
> ...


You are absolutely right, it is about growth. I have learned so much about myself and about our marriage. It is true, you really never know how you will react until you are faced with the situation. There were my lines in the sand before, the things I would not tolerate... and then life happens and you realize, it can happen to you. Of course the only way that I could consider R is because he had true remorse and did all the heavy lifting necessary to carry me through those critical times after DD. If he had not, we would be divorced. There is no way I would allow trickle truth or rugsweeping. I expected and received everything I needed from him in order to R.

We are definitely redefining our values and boundaries. We have talked about what is acceptable in our marriage and how important it is to continuously nurture our relationship to keep us strong and that this could never be a possibility again... that we would lose focus and hurt each other.


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

The whole idea of "hard work" has had two meanings for my relationship. 

I was watching Oprah and her guest was Gary Chapman, the guy who wrote the 5 Love Languages. He now has an online quiz so you can find yours. My WS and I both took the quiz, and lo and behold my primary Love Language is Acts of Service. (We are now about a month from D-Day, and this show was a little more than 2 weeks ago.)

I recently got the book Not Just Friends, and author Shirley Glass said that contrary to what a lot of people think, it's not that WS's aren't "getting enough" in their marriages, it's often that they aren't "giving enough." 

My WS has been dealing with an anxiety problem, and because of that I was too easy on him. There was a lot of stuff going undone around the house, and when I asked for his help he'd get cranky. Even asking him to take out the garbage and recycling became an issue, so I did it many times. He had plenty of time for his various hobbies, but not for stuff that needed doing. 

I used to do almost all of it myself, even some of the fix-it jobs that he's so good at (he has a million tools). A lot of stuff just didn't get done, and the house is looking shabby as a result. 

Since the 5 Love Languages quiz, he has been doing chores and fixing things without my even asking. So that kind of "hard work" has been a pleasant surprise!

As for the discussions, he hasn't been feeling well much of this past month, so there haven't been as many discussions as I've wanted. Guilt hasn't been easy on him: he's had problems with his intestines (we've even had a few laughs about his stink bombs and the poor overworked bathroom fans) and he's had a lot of headaches. Now he also has an infection so he's on antibiotics for that. He's had a hard time remembering a few things, but I've found that when I've asked some other related questions, then something usually jogs his memory. I don't think there's anything he's trying to hide, except maybe from himself (he's really ashamed). I have all the credit card, cell phone, and other info I want. He keeps apologizing, which I appreciate.

I never said to myself that I'd divorce him if he cheated because I never thought he'd cheat, so I don't feel I've adjusted an internal code. My core beliefs always included trying to make my marriage work, being compassionate, seeking to understand. We are all imperfect people, and he is truly remorseful. I'm traumatized from this and it has been the month from hell, but he's been making an effort and this is a good start. It's possible that the new marriage could be healthier than the one we had.


----------



## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

EI said:


> I approach this cautiously, as a former WS, out of respect to anyone who is, currently, or has been a BS. But, I would like to add something to your 2nd paragraph above..... simply as food for thought. While understanding that although there are always reasons for an affair, there are NEVER justifications for one, what if the spouse, who would eventually become the WS, WAS doing the work necessary for the marriage throughout the marriage and up until the affair? What if the spouse, who would eventually become the BS, was not doing the work necessary for the marriage to survive in spite of their spouse's repeated attempt to communicate their unhappiness in the marriage? What if prior to the infidelity occurring, the future WS did a great deal of work on improving themselves through counseling, weight loss, etc., and spent several years communicating their desire to work with their spouse to improve their marriage, together? What if in spite of all of these efforts by the future WS, the future BS refuses to listen, refuses to change, and actually responds to their spouses attempts to improve themselves and their marriage with indifference at best and hostility at worst.
> 
> Now, imagine that D-Day has come and gone and the BS is shell shocked, devastated and gutted. Now, the BS realizes that their marriage, as they once knew it, has been forever changed, yet acknowledges their own shortcomings in the marriage, along with their refusal to work on it in spite of their WS's pleadings, was a huge factor in the destruction of the pre-A marriage. What if the BS is the spouse that initially wishes to reconcile, after the WS has essentially "checked out" of the marriage, and the BS is now doing all of the work and making all of the changes that the WS had requested that they do for years?
> 
> .


And this is why spouses should always, continuously work on their connection, strive to validate and fulfil each other's needs BEFORE an affair is to happen. 
Sadly, I read so many threads where the posts imply that no matter what the BS was doing / was not doing, the spouse should just suck it in and not stray. That's a selfish view, in my opinion. How about we give our spouse the appreciation, validation,love, and sex they need, so they don't have to look for it elsewhere? ( This principle worked and still works on my marriage- we never slept on the "vows" )

Now, there are cases and cases. There are scenarios out here where even the BS was doing all what a good spouse should do, the WS still strayed. That's because that's their nature ( serial cheaters ) or because romantic love/ sexual spark has not been in the marriage from the begining. ( talk about marrying for the wrong reasons...)

On the R topic : yes, it is possible if the WS is repentant, cut off all contact with the AP , is fully transparent and showers the BS with love. Though, they have to understand that the trust will never be regained 100% . Like something broken, you can glue the broken piece back and still use the item, but will never look brand-new again. 

On triggers: the WS should do everything in their power to remove the triggers. Change jobs, change neighborhoods, change friends, avoid people who are friends with or remind of the AP. On Dday anniversaries they should shower their BS with love and reassurance more than ever. There are some triggers that is not in their power to remove: for instance, there was a girl who was after my H and I felt very threatened by her. Took care of her and removed her from his circle, but only hearing or reading her first name still gives me the chill. Imagine what the AP name triggers in a BS when something really happened..

The worse the betrayal, the longer time R will take.


----------



## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Re: Thought on Hard Work and "R"*



EI said:


> I approach this cautiously, as a former WS, out of respect to anyone who is, currently, or has been a BS. But, I would like to add something to your 2nd paragraph above..... simply as food for thought. While understanding that although there are always reasons for an affair, there are NEVER justifications for one, what if the spouse, who would eventually become the WS, WAS doing the work necessary for the marriage throughout the marriage and up until the affair? What if the spouse, who would eventually become the BS, was not doing the work necessary for the marriage to survive in spite of their spouse's repeated attempt to communicate their unhappiness in the marriage? What if prior to the infidelity occurring, the future WS did a great deal of work on improving themselves through counseling, weight loss, etc., and spent several years communicating their desire to work with their spouse to improve their marriage, together? What if in spite of all of these efforts by the future WS, the future BS refuses to listen, refuses to change, and actually responds to their spouses attempts to improve themselves and their marriage with indifference at best and hostility at worst.
> .......


The future WS should then look in the mirror, draw on all that extensive soul searching they did in IC, and decide that they are unwilling to debase themselves and wear the title of WS/DS. They should go to their partner and say:

"Spouse, over the last xx amount of years I have done everything in my power to be the best spouse I could be. I've invested time, energy and love into this marriage, and wanted nothing but the best for us both. On countless occasions I have tried to engage you in conversation about tour relationship, and based on your attitude and behavior, I no longer have any faith in a future that involves us both. I have consulted with an attorney, and will be filling for Divorce. Once the divorce is finalized, I will move on with my life and seek happiness and fulfulment elsewhere."

The "future" ws then just needs to keep it in his/her pants till D is final, and no one gets destroyed in the process.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Paladin said:


> The future WS should then look in the mirror, draw on all that extensive soul searching they did in IC, and decide that they are unwilling to debase themselves and wear the title of WS/DS. They should go to their partner and say:
> 
> "Spouse, over the last xx amount of years I have done everything in my power to be the best spouse I could be. I've invested time, energy and love into this marriage, and wanted nothing but the best for us both. On countless occasions I have tried to engage you in conversation about tour relationship, and based on your attitude and behavior, I no longer have any faith in a future that involves us both. I have consulted with an attorney, and will be filling for Divorce. Once the divorce is finalized, I will move on with my life and seek happiness and fulfulment elsewhere."
> 
> The "future" ws then just needs to keep it in his/her pants till D is final, and no one gets destroyed in the process.



I agree with you 100%. I went as far as to tell my husband that I would be filing for divorce and that in the meantime I would like for him to move out of our marital home. He refused to move out. I, then asked him if he would sign papers for a legal separation (we met the criteria in our state of not sharing a bedroom or having had intimate relations for a certain period of time.... a length of time that we had far surpassed and not of my choosing.) Again, he refused. 

Now, in a perfect world one would simply file for divorce, divide the assets and the debts, and move on. In the real world we had more debts than assets, a house that was about $100,000 under water, 4 sons still living at home, one of whom is 23 years old, severely mentally and physically handicapped and wheelchair bound. He must be diapered, dressed, teeth brushed, hair combed, fed, etc. As an adult over the age 18 who is not mentally competent, he must have a guardian.... I'm it. Our home is handicapped accessible..... We, also, have 3 other sons, the youngest will graduate from high school this year. Two of our other sons both had major surgeries that year (2011.) One had his knee scoped, followed 2 months later by a cadaver knee transplant (yes, a knee transplant) from a sports injury at the age of 18. The other, our then 20 y/o son, had his shoulder repaired from an older skateboarding injury in the hopes that he could join the military. There were months and months of doctors appointments, physical therapy and....... more debt piling up. Take into consideration that I had been a stay at home mom for nearly 20 years, therefore, having no income of my own.

Yes, in my perfect world I would have had a husband who was loving, supportive, and emotionally and physically engaged in our marriage. But, in the real world my husband was suffering from depression and low Testosterone and despite his awareness of this and my setting up doctors and counseling appointments for him he quit following through with them after a short period of time. 

In a perfect world we wouldn't have had more debts than assets, an upside down mortgage, a special needs child or any of the other myriad of very real and complex issues we were dealing with. In a perfect world I might have had a job that I could support myself with. But, our world was so far removed from anything that the "typical" family deals with on a daily basis.

So, my real world left me with extremely limited choices...... Obviously, I made the WRONG one. Prolonged loneliness, isolation, emotional and physical neglect with no hope of that situation changing any time soon, if ever, had already "destroyed" my ability to think rationally any longer. Hopelessness drove me to do things that I never imagined that I would.

Now, looking back, I hate what I did. I'm more devastated than you can possibly imagine.... But, I am in a far different place psychologically, now, than I was then. But, this was about so much more than just keeping my pants on. At the time I was trying to find the strength and motivation to stay alive.


----------



## newlife94 (Aug 11, 2011)

We are still working on R, although some days are still VERY difficult. I still find triggers to be very hard to deal with, there are so many because I read so much of what was going on- in the emails they sent back and forth. 
He has become very frustrated with me and tells me I need to live in today and stop trying to live in the past with the pain. I know he tries to understand but I just don't think he gets it or else he would not be talking to me like that. He says that I can talk to him about what upsets me but I don't have any reason to still be mad or making drama where there is none. He swears everything he is doing is on the up and up-- his words. He is military and during our R, he has been gone A LOT!! I have had to deal with triggers alone, nightmares and concerns- alone. Even though he says we are doing this together, when I need reassurance I am alone. I have told him on numerous occasions that I just don't think I can get past this and I think we should D. He says that he has done everything and will continue to do everything, but he can't talk louder than the voices in my head that convince me things are not ok. WTF? That is not very supportive. I found out in Nov 2011, which is a while ago but let me tell you about what has happened since that time.
He returned from deployment the first part of Dec 2011, we had leave as a family for one month, then we packed our stuff for a move (overseas) about a month after that. Then he went to school (away from me and the kids) for about 3 months- when he returned, we moved overseas 10 DAYS later!!!!! Then he left again for a trip only 5 days after we arrived at our new location (we stayed overseas, he had to go back to the states). Since then he has been gone on 2 more trips- one was 2 months and this one that he is on now is 4 months!!!! He will be home next week finally. So needless to say, our R has been anything but easy. Having to just TRUST that things are ok and that he is not in contact with the POSOW. I have no idea where she is now. She was stationed in Japan and should be back in the states by now.

I have thought of writing her and asking where she is. I think we have a pretty good chance of ending up in the same location again since their jobs could cross paths in the military. I am beyond livid that there is a chance we could run into her. Is it wrong for me to want to know???? One of the other soldiers he was having inappropriate contact with IS stationed here with us now! She works in the same building as ME!!!!! If I were to run into her, it would not be nice.

This just sucks. Maybe if our R had been a little different, like if he were home more- I would be in a better place about all of this. I just feel like I have not had great healing time because of all the chaos around us.

Now I will say, he is great about staying in contact with me- I have all the passwords to his email accounts (although I still worry he could make another), but I do trust that he does not want to make another mistake and lose me. He knows that I have already come so close to giving up on this. Not because I don't love him, but I don't want to live with any more stress. He buys me gifts and says really great things to me, like he did before all of this mess. I also know that he hates the person he became during the A, that he does feel great shame.

Ugh, I need your support TAM. Thank you all for your help.


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EI said:


> I think there is often a basic assumption on TAM that if only the WS had communicated their unhappiness to their BS spouse prior their infidelity that all would have been well. Many times they did, and their attempts to communicate fell on deaf ears.


:iagree:


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Now after it has happened and you chose to do the hard work for "R" with your WS and to build a new marriage don't you really think you have changed your internal self?


I think you need to define "internal self" a bit better. To me, internal self is your core. You unconscious self. That's a difficult thing to change, if in fact it's possible to change. And no, I don't think my internal self is changed.

What you can change is how you behave when your inner self is hurt or being critical. This I have changed tremendously.

Prior to Dday, I had a lot of shame and guilt. I would hide things from my FWW spouse and I would shut down when I disagreed with her to avoid conflict. I denied my internal self. I told it to shut up, and I 'escaped' through porn or video games.

Post Dday, I still have feelings of shame and guilt. But I no longer hide them from my wife. I tell her how I'm feeling. When she triggers something through a thoughtless comment or action I tell her right then and there. I do things that I want to do, even if my FWW isn't interested in doing that with me. 

Prior to Dday, I feared ending our marriage. I feared I would feel like a failure or that I wouldn't find anyone else. Post Dday, I have a plan for what I would do if the marriage ended. I know why I would choose to stay and what things would cause me to terminate it. 

I don't think I'll ever trust my FWW the way I used to. But I've balanced that fear of betrayal with a clear plan on what I would do "if" it happened again. I understand that if she lies and hides things from me again, it's not a reflection on my value as a mate. Rather it's a flaw in her character. One I didn't want to believe existed. One that hope she can control. 

Is our marriage better? I wouldn't say that. It's different. Things like communication and accountability are better. But the fact trust is lower puts a big damper on things. 

Early in our marriage, before the betrayal and Dday, there were days when things were great. Like we were on top of the world. Just the two of us in bed all morning. We could shut the world out and not care about anything and have a few hours of uninterrupted bliss. Over time those moments became fewer. Now, I can't see them ever happening again. There will always be a sad tinge to our intimacy (and I'm not just talking sexual intimacy, more that feeling of bonding and connectedness).


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

My WS wasn't very clear about any unhappiness before she cheated...

Her 'friend' in work just gave her reasons to resent and to shut down... Her "ILYBINILWY" came about two years into her sleeping with the guy, and when I say okay to MC, she never set up an appointment.. I guess I was supposed to do that. She probably just wanted to be able to tell me that she reached out to me and I ignored her. Another way to give herself permission to cheat.

It does change you.

I hate cheaters, always have.. I've always been a big fan of video games, and cheaters ruin games.

I hate cheaters in life. I always talked about how disgusted I am with people who are obviously cheating. The ones that everyone knows are married, but they are clearly sleeping together. They disgusted me.

It turns out, that was my wife.

Now I choose to R with her, so I have to accept that she was capable of being that person. I have to find compassion and understanding for something I've always despised. It's a challenge, and one of the more difficult things I deal with.


----------



## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

TOMTEFAR said:


> I have had the same thoughts. Not been part of an infidellity my self but my brother had a really bad one.
> 
> I would realy like to know from the BS how they can claim that the M is better than it ever was.
> 
> ...


WS and I are about a year out from dDay and are reconciling. Our marriage is better in some ways, better than it was pre-affair. But triggers are still there and I wouldn't say our marriage is better than it's ever been just that certain key aspects have improved (communication, sex, far less passive aggressiveness on his part and mine). Sure as h*ll wish something else besides an affair could have come prior to those improvements in our relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

EI said:


> I approach this cautiously, as a former WS, out of respect to anyone who is, currently, or has been a BS. But, I would like to add something to your 2nd paragraph above..... simply as food for thought. While understanding that although there are always reasons for an affair, there are NEVER justifications for one, what if the spouse, who would eventually become the WS, WAS doing the work necessary for the marriage throughout the marriage and up until the affair? What if the spouse, who would eventually become the BS, was not doing the work necessary for the marriage to survive in spite of their spouse's repeated attempt to communicate their unhappiness in the marriage? What if prior to the infidelity occurring, the future WS did a great deal of work on improving themselves through counseling, weight loss, etc., and spent several years communicating their desire to work with their spouse to improve their marriage, together? What if in spite of all of these efforts by the future WS, the future BS refuses to listen, refuses to change, and actually responds to their spouses attempts to improve themselves and their marriage with indifference at best and hostility at worst.
> 
> Now, imagine that D-Day has come and gone and the BS is shell shocked, devastated and gutted. Now, the BS realizes that their marriage, as they once knew it, has been forever changed, yet acknowledges their own shortcomings in the marriage, along with their refusal to work on it in spite of their WS's pleadings, was a huge factor in the destruction of the pre-A marriage. What if the BS is the spouse that initially wishes to reconcile, after the WS has essentially "checked out" of the marriage, and the BS is now doing all of the work and making all of the changes that the WS had requested that they do for years?
> 
> ...


i'll respond.

this is total BS and typical justification.

"you werent meeting MY needs, thats why i had an affair".

I know this well becasue my wife pulled this on me, and i believe its the all too common line. THE REALITY IS, if you arent happy and its "that bad" THEN LEAVE THE RELATIONSHIP. having an affair isnt the answer.

initially i fell for this line of bull and our MC even suggested this was accurate but it "didnt justify an affair".

so the spouse is so horrible that they drove you to an affair.... AND NOW THEY WANT R. WHY WHY WHY? it was so bad beofre, but not they see things differently. 

if the selfish, greedy, thoughtless BS was so "beat down" that they had to have an affair, WHY IN THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT BACK IN???

get OVER yourself.....you WANTED IT, IT WAS FUN, AN EGO BOOST, heck probably pretty mind blowing sex. it was ALL ABOUT YOU and always has been.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

newlife94 said:


> We are still working on R, although some days are still VERY difficult. I still find triggers to be very hard to deal with, there are so many because I read so much of what was going on- in the emails they sent back and forth.
> He has become very frustrated with me and tells me I need to live in today and stop trying to live in the past with the pain. I know he tries to understand but I just don't think he gets it or else he would not be talking to me like that. He says that I can talk to him about what upsets me but I don't have any reason to still be mad or making drama where there is none. He swears everything he is doing is on the up and up-- his words. He is military and during our R, he has been gone A LOT!! I have had to deal with triggers alone, nightmares and concerns- alone. Even though he says we are doing this together, when I need reassurance I am alone. I have told him on numerous occasions that I just don't think I can get past this and I think we should D. He says that he has done everything and will continue to do everything, but he can't talk louder than the voices in my head that convince me things are not ok. WTF? That is not very supportive. I found out in Nov 2011, which is a while ago but let me tell you about what has happened since that time.
> He returned from deployment the first part of Dec 2011, we had leave as a family for one month, then we packed our stuff for a move (overseas) about a month after that. Then he went to school (away from me and the kids) for about 3 months- when he returned, we moved overseas 10 DAYS later!!!!! Then he left again for a trip only 5 days after we arrived at our new location (we stayed overseas, he had to go back to the states). Since then he has been gone on 2 more trips- one was 2 months and this one that he is on now is 4 months!!!! He will be home next week finally. So needless to say, our R has been anything but easy. Having to just TRUST that things are ok and that he is not in contact with the POSOW. I have no idea where she is now. She was stationed in Japan and should be back in the states by now.
> 
> ...


interesting. you admit to your husband have physical and mental issues, challenges in his life. yet he didnt go have an affair.

you had your issues, and crawled into bed with someone. maybe you should take a harder look at your husband and learn something.

instead, you justify it becasue of how tough of a spot you were in.


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EI said:


> I approach this cautiously, as a former WS, out of respect to anyone who is, currently, or has been a BS. But, I would like to add something to your 2nd paragraph above..... simply as food for thought. While understanding that although there are always reasons for an affair, there are NEVER justifications for one, what if the spouse, who would eventually become the WS, WAS doing the work necessary for the marriage throughout the marriage and up until the affair? What if the spouse, who would eventually become the BS, was not doing the work necessary for the marriage to survive in spite of their spouse's repeated attempt to communicate their unhappiness in the marriage? What if prior to the infidelity occurring, the future WS did a great deal of work on improving themselves through counseling, weight loss, etc., and spent several years communicating their desire to work with their spouse to improve their marriage, together? What if in spite of all of these efforts by the future WS, the future BS refuses to listen, refuses to change, and actually responds to their spouses attempts to improve themselves and their marriage with indifference at best and hostility at worst.
> 
> Now, imagine that D-Day has come and gone and the BS is shell shocked, devastated and gutted. Now, the BS realizes that their marriage, as they once knew it, has been forever changed, yet acknowledges their own shortcomings in the marriage, along with their refusal to work on it in spite of their WS's pleadings, was a huge factor in the destruction of the pre-A marriage. What if the BS is the spouse that initially wishes to reconcile, after the WS has essentially "checked out" of the marriage, and the BS is now doing all of the work and making all of the changes that the WS had requested that they do for years?
> 
> ...


Seems like crap to me. If the WS had significantly dedicated effort to IC and the BS refused to engage, the WS would become a WAS.


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

x598 said:


> i'll respond.
> 
> this is total BS and typical justification.
> 
> ...


Exactly my case.. M was pretty good until a third party got involved, and my WS decided she would try for some strange. I got the 'we didn't communicate' crap, and countered with 'no because you were talking to him'... 'you were controlling', obviously not controlling enough, and if you think wanting your wife to wear a wedding ring is controlling, then I suppose I was... 

We also had stuff to work on in our relationship, like ANY relationship!! That's when you break out the self help books, and read and go to MC, not after you've been sleeping with a guy for years... You do it BEFORE that if you really care about your M and your spouse. 

I'm only in R with her because she's owned 100% of it, your last two sentences are the reasons I now have for her cheating.

Tell it like it is... one thing being a BS has taught me in this short time, and it's to recognize BS...


----------



## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Seems like crap to me. If the WS had significantly dedicated effort to IC and the BS refused to engage, the WS would become a WAS.


My WS 'mentioned' MC... basically, another weak attempt at covering up what she was really doing... like 'hey, I made an effort to fix the marriage.. remember that time I said MC and you were like 'huh? what are you talking about, our marriage is fine!' well you didn't want MC, so I slept with the guy I work with instead.. forgot to tell you about that.

She could have picked up a phone and made a call.. I have health insurance.


----------



## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Tempted to respond...

Continued healing to new BSs.


----------



## life101 (Nov 18, 2012)

During my two R, I was dying little by little inside. And this is why I agree completely with rrrbbbttt, through the R, something fundamentally changed inside me. I don't know if others faced it, but due to not growing up in a happy household, the only thing I ever wanted was a happy home for myself. During R, that dream started dying.

Very few people are wired to see their faults. A cheater is already programmed differently, and it is only expected that the cheater will need some life altering events to change the deep rooted thinking process that goes with cheating. Sorry to say this, but for a cheater, the event of getting divorced is not a life altering event.

If you never cheated in a relationship, and then decide to stay with a cheater, then it is your choice. But your values are compromised by that decision, no matter what. The complete trust will never be there, and that is not fair to either of you. I would never want to be in a marriage where I cannot trust my spouse completely. But that's just me.


----------



## pollywog (May 30, 2013)

life101 said:


> During my two R, I was dying little by little inside. And this is why I agree completely with rrrbbbttt, through the R, something fundamentally changed inside me. I don't know if others faced it, but due to not growing up in a happy household, the only thing I ever wanted was a happy home for myself. During R, that dream started dying.
> 
> Very few people are wired to see their faults. A cheater is already programmed differently, and it is only expected that the cheater will need some life altering events to change the deep rooted thinking process that goes with cheating. Sorry to say this, but for a cheater, the event of getting divorced is not a life altering event.
> 
> If you never cheated in a relationship, and then decide to stay with a cheater, then it is your choice. But your values are compromised by that decision, no matter what. The complete trust will never be there, and that is not fair to either of you.* I would never want to be in a marriage where I cannot trust my spouse completely. But that's just me.*




I don't know if I will ever get that trust back. I am trying to believe what he says, but I have that voice in the back of my mind that says it is not true. I cannot move forward until I get that trust back and I know that.


----------



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I am usually pretty careful to NOT say my marriage is better, because it isn't. I think what I usually say is that the marriage I have today is far better than the one I had prior to him cheating. Meaning, like others have said, this one is a totally new ball game.
> 
> I also agree with Racer, that sometimes it takes something blowing up in your face to make you realize that what you've been doing wasn't what you should have been doing. I wouldn't wish what I've been through on my worst enemy, but if I hadn't gone through it, would I be where I was today? I don't think so. It's an enigma. It's kind of like scar tissue making something stronger. Without the original trauma, it wouldn't be as strong. Or like fire changing sand into glass. Glass is much stronger than sand, but if there was no fire there'd be no glass.
> 
> My husband doing the heavy lifting the way he did from the beginning made it possible for me to take the plunge and do my own later on. I was DONE on D day. No way was I going to give him another chance. But only once I was free of him was I able to clearly see what I really wanted. Only then could i make the CHOICE. If I hadn't kicked him out, I would have seen myself as clinging to him and being needy for him, and that isn't me. I wouldn't like my decision then.


Most of this is applicable to me as well. My wife's EA was a serious slap to the face. I kept saying I would do X better and Y better, etc, and I just never could make it last very long. This went on for 9 years or so. My wife just broke. 

Man did it hurt. Sometimes it still does. And while my W has been very good to me, she still hates that she can't be friends with the OM ever again. She feels she can go back to platonic feelings with him like they had been for 20 years. She feels her EA was tiny blip/mistake that, now that we've dealt with it, can be reversed. She realizes my stance (of forbidding them to ever speak again) and respects it, but doesn't like it and thinks it's unnecessary. This is the one thing that keeps me from saying we have "made it".

My W has a great life. She knows it. Because of this, she won't risk losing what we have to keep her friend/OM. At least not now - she could change her mind at any point I guess.

Some posters know my story, and know where I'm at. My thoughts are that my marriage is better in many respects, but much worse in one. Sum total, it's probably slightly better overall. I'm just much more aware of its fragility. And because of that, I don't feel as safe. But for now, I'm enjoying my wife and the ride, knowing someday it could end suddenly.


----------

