# I don't know how to save my marriage, help!



## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

I don't know where to start really, here goes.

I have been married religiously for 4 months and by law for 7. We argue a lot and don't generally get on very well. The good times are good. The bad times are very bad. An argument can be about anything. Normally absolute rubbish. These arguments often escalate into crazy, major arguments and we forget what we were talking about. My wife shouts and screams and I speak and am told to stop shouting.

I do get wound up by her and find her impossible to deal with.

She acts like a child if she doesn't get her own way and will goto any means to win an argument and get her own way, demanding attention. It's hard to go to work, to see other people, to do anything that doesn't involve her. I have changed my eating habits because she has recently changed from vegetarian to vegan, everything is extreme with her, there is no middle ground.

She has alienated my family who no longer want to see her and don't want us to stay together. She is from south Africa originally and we live in the uk. I am 30 and she is 23 although I don't think age has much to do with it. It is more about personality as her mum is very similar to her and can blow up at the drop of a hat. It's like she has a self destruct button and it takes nothing to press it. She isn't working and isn't trying hard to get a job. I have a good job and I think she is lazy and can't be bothered to work just like her mum.

I do love her but all these factors are so consuming and depressing and i don't know what to do. I try not getting angry, I try being amazingly nice, I try everything. Nothing works. She is impossible to deal with like a poorly behaved child. She has no respect for anything and is rude to people when we go out. She has no social etiquette and thinks it is funny when she is rude to people.

I don't know what to do. Nothing seems to make her happy. We started dating at the end of 2009 and got engaged in 2010.

We didn't go on honeymoon because she doesn't want to spend money even though money is not a major issue. I have a flat and savings and we could have gone on honeymoon anywhere in the world. I felt scared to book a honeymoon as it would be an extra thing she could threaten to destroy everyday of the week. It is bad enough to threaten divorce every waking second of every day.

We have just got back from a uk break as I had 2 weeks off work and didn't want to go abroad and suffer the stress as she cannot cope with any situation which requires doing something like going to an airport or another country. She finds it too stressful and gets very aggressive and angry. I booked a 3 day uk break for this week and another one for next week with her beloved groupon deals website which she loves. If she focused more on accumulating rather than saving pennies she would be far better off financially.

I must stress she wants to make the marriage work but doesn't behave in an appropriate way so you wouldn't think this is the case. She does recover relatively quickly from her episodes of hate and aggression but the next one is not long round the corner. This means the marriage drifts from neutrality to downright misery with the very occasional injection of laughter.

I don't want to get divorced but I don't see any other option. I don't know what to do. Nothing seems to work. She was meant to sort out counselling but hasn't. I feel like I have to do everything. I could talk to local people in the community but I don't want to waste their time as I don't think they can help.

I know marriage is hard and I can be a better husband but it's such a struggle, I really think I have made a mistake and also think my wife might be ill in some way and have something wrong with her.

We have talked a lot about everything, that hasn't worked either. She seems unable to make friends and pretty much is totally reliant on me and also Skype her family in south Africa.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok first of all... stop looking at your wife's behavior as similiar to that of a child. No offense but your blameshifting here when you go that route. Have you thought that perhaps both you and her might have some mental issues? Slapping her was wrong of you.. even if she was ripping up your tickets. That was really no reason to slap her. You clearly have anger issues and she sounds as if she may have some anxiety and anger issues as well. You could try making an appointment for both of you to go to counseling and take her with when the time comes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Carisma (Aug 24, 2012)

I wonder if she has an anxiety disorder. My husband does and one thing he does is try to cause a fight before any major event that makes him anxious so that I will be the one to cancel. I have solved that problem for the most part by just refusing to engage and going to the social event/holiday etc alone. I don't make a big deal about it, just go alone. Sometimes now he comes along but more than anything my refusal to participate has made him get treatment for his anxiety.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Oh boy.

Understand once you get into a fight, right and wrong are not even the issue anymore. It's about who's going to win. The more you disagree with her, the more defensive she becomes and if she realizes you are right it will make her feel even more foolish and lash out. In other words, you can’t win.

So don’t try to win.

Next time you get into a fight, agree with her 100% even if she is blatantly wrong. Tell her you understand why she thinks that way and you agree with whatever nonsense she is saying. Say you are wrong and even stupid for disagreeing with her (but not sarcastically). You’ll discover once she has nothing to fight against she will end up defending you from yourself.

Reading your post, I wonder why you married her in the first place. She appears emotionally unstable and that isn’t something that’s just going to go away. She may be bi-polar or have BPD.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

People can love each other, but it doesn't mean they belong with each other. Some people are just toxic to one another and if thats the case, its best to move on.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

I do have a temper, but I also think that a human being has limits and these limits can be broken?

I agree violence is wrong. I am a pacifist at heart. 

I don't have mental issues, but thanks for asking.

I do wonder why I married her in he first place also. I guess love is blind?

She may well have bpd or bipolar. Got worse over time. Should go to a doctor or?

I have tried just agreeing with her. That does work better. Although she knows I am faking it as I'm not a very good actor.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Could also be anxiety. She locked herself in the toilet before one of my best friends weddings and wouldn't come out.

We had a massive argument and were late. We ended p leaving early because she was in such a foul mood. She always threatens to go and sit in the car and I find it so embarrassing.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

The only thing I know to tell you if you want to try to save it, is counseling for you both. She needs to been seen by a doc, to see if she has any mental issues going on. (Which sounds highly possible) You can't make her go though. So keep in mind that if she chooses not, doesn't mean you can't go. Seek out some IC for yourself and maybe a professional can give you some suggestions of things to try. You can't change her, but you can work on yourself.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I advise against simply agreeing with her. That will not help you, especially if she has anxiety. Yes I know every human being has their limits but there are many other things you could have done aside from slapping her. If she does have anxiety... that behavior will just make her anxiety much worse so just remember to keep your temper in check. If you feel like hitting her... perhaps you should invest in getting a punching bag. But I agree with trey in perhaps you should seek out counseling for yourself if she won't go. It would help you find a better way to cope and deal with her... or help you decide if you want to stay or leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Well fingers crossed I can keep my temper in check. Two weeks without losing my temper I know that doesn't sound much, but when you have to live with what i live with, it isnt bad. I have to stay calm, I have to.

Agree a doctor is a good idea and a counsellor.

Feel free to tell me what else I can do. She doesn't like it when I leave, but recognise that is better than a physical confrontation.

If not agree with her what should I do. Pointless bickering doesn't solve anything.

She was violent to me today, but it didn't last long. A quick elbow. It hurt a bit though.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

When she gets violent then you leave. You need to tell her calmly what you will and will tolerate from her. To bad if she gets mad when you leave. You're not responsible for her reaction to things. Her behavior is unacceptable and you need to set some boundaries. Counseling will help you learn to do that.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Take a walk... let her cool down... do not stay... it will esculate if you stay. If you leave... she may not like it .. but it will give her time to think about the situation... if she seems more aggressive when you return.... leave again. Keep doing this until she is capable of having an actual conversation and letting you know what's really on her mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Jinks trey... you owe me a soda! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Yeah leaving is good advice. Hard when it is the middle of the night though and you want to sleep and have work early the next day. 

Sometimes a cuddle is all that does it. Going into separate bedrooms doesn't work. It's hard enough sleeping anyway. She always wants t talk for hours and refuses to have the blinds down or the windows closed, even in winter. Street lamps shine in and I have only ever slept in the dark. I sometimes feel like the sleep deprivation is torture. I'm often not allowed to sleep. Calm logic doesn't always work...


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

It may be hard but you will have to push yourself to try if you really love her and want to work things out. You said a cuddle is all it takes? From you to her or her to you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

From me to her.

It's counter intuitive because all she wants is to be loved.

I know you said not to draw the comparison but if I think of her as a scared little child who wants to be loved it helps me calm down and be nice to her.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

How about.. instead of a child comparison.. look at it this way.... she is a scared, fragile little woman just needing to be loved... much like a frightened doe... 

Another thing you could do.. is look into getting his needs/ her needs and the five languages of love. You and her can take the free online quiz to see what each others love language is. That just might help as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> She may well have bpd or bipolar. Got worse over time.


Soupy, I agree with you and ArmyofJuan that you are describing many classic symptoms associated with BPD or bipolar. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a _BPDer_ exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a _bipolar_ foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to many psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found ten clear differences between the two disorders.

*One difference* is that the mood swings are on two separate spectra having very different polar extremes. Whereas a bipolar sufferer swings between _mania_ and _depression_, a BPDer flips back and forth between _loving you_ and _hating you_. Importantly, you mention nothing at all about mania but do describe her as flipping back and forth between loving and hating you.

*A second difference* is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. The latter therefore seems consistent with your description of numerous temper tantrums.

*A third difference* is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). Again, these short-duration rages seem consistent with your observation that _"she does recover relatively quickly from her episodes of hate and aggression but the next one is not long round the corner."_

*A fourth difference* is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Significantly, the rages and hissy fits you describe seem consistent with these event-triggered outbursts. As you say, _"It's like she has a self destruct button and it takes nothing to press it."_

*A fifth difference* is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. Yes, meds can be prescribed to reduce the anxiety and depression produced by BPD but they will not make a dent in the underlying thought distortions associated with BPD.

*A sixth difference* is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. This seems consistent with your description of very hateful, spiteful behavior. The intense level of verbal and emotional abuse you describe is a hallmark of BPD, not bipolar.

*A seventh difference* is that, whereas a bipolar sufferer is not usually angry, a BPDer is filled with anger that has been carried inside since early childhood. You only have to say or do some minor thing to trigger a sudden release of that anger -- which seems consistent with your description.

*An eight difference* is that a bipolar sufferer typically is capable of tolerating intimacy when he is not experiencing strong mania or depression. In contrast, BPDers have such a weak and unstable self image that (except for the brief infatuation period) they cannot tolerate intimacy for long before feeling engulfed and suffocated by your personality.

BPDers therefore will create arguments over nothing as a way to push you away and give them breathing room. Hence, it is not surprising that they tend to create the very worst arguments immediately following the very best of times, i.e., right after an intimate evening or a great weekend spent together. 

Another result is that the apparent source of the argument -- being only an excuse for pushing you away -- is typically so minor that nobody can remember what it was. This is consistent with your observation that _"these arguments often escalate into crazy, major arguments and we forget what we were talking about."_

*A ninth difference* is that the thinking and behavior of a BPDer includes more mental departures from reality (called "dissociation") wherein "feelings create facts." That is, BPDers typically do not intellectually challenge their intense feelings. Instead, they accept them as accurately reflecting your intentions and motivations. In contrast, bipolar disorder tends to be more neurotic in that the mood swings tend to be based more on extreme exaggerations of fact, not the creation of "fact" out of thin air based solely on feelings. 

One result of this childish acceptance of intense feelings as reality is that -- as you report for your W -- the person cannot be reasoned with. She knows she MUST be right because her feelings are so powerfully intense.

Another result is that BPDers typically are far more reliant on black-white thinking than anyone else, including bipolar sufferers. Having extreme views of nearly everyone, a BPDer typically will categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad." BPDers are extremely uncomfortable with mixed feelings, grey area, ambiguities, and uncertainty. This may explain, then, why your W _"...has recently changed from vegetarian to vegan, everything is extreme with her, there is no middle ground."_

*Finally, a tenth difference* is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if he or she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period. Before they can trust others, they must first learn how to trust and love themselves. 

Sadly, this lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when people cannot trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will, as you've seen numerous times with your abusive W.

Yet, despite these ten clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that these two disorders often occur together. About half of bipolar-I sufferers also have full-blown BPD.


> I think of her as a scared little child who wants to be loved.


If she has strong BPD traits as you suspect, her emotional development likely is frozen at the level of a four year old. If so, what you are seeing are the temper tantrums typical of a young child. But not just ANY four year old. Rather, one who is carrying enormous rage and shame inside -- and who has the intelligence, knowledge, and body strength of a full grown woman.


> She has alienated my family who no longer want to see her.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has moderate to strong traits) that is to be expected. BPDers are so fearful of abandonment that they try to control most aspects of your personal life. Such control is far easier to exercise, of course, if they can isolate you away from all friends and family members. BPDers don't want you to be supported by a family member with statements like "That's the most ridiculous excuse I've ever heard."


> Her mum is very similar to her and can blow up at the drop of a hat.


BPD is believed to be caused partly by inherited genes and partly by childhood abuse or abandonment. Hence, if you find out that your W has strong BPD traits, you already know where they likely came from.


> Nothing seems to make her happy.


If she has strong BPD traits, it is impossible to make her happy. Her emotional needs are so vast that they constitute a bottomless pit. Trying to satisfy her, then, is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


> It's counter intuitive because all she wants is to be loved.


Yes, if she is a BPDer, she wants to be loved just like everyone else. But, sadly, loving her will be nearly as damaging as it is helpful. Because her ego is so fragile and unstable, she will find intimacy (not sex but, rather, true intimacy) to be frightening, uncomfortable, and suffocating. She will feel like she is vanishing into thin air and that she is losing herself in your strong personality. 

This is why BPDers will push you away (creating arguments over nothing) immediately following a great weekend or evening spent together. The result is an unending cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. Hence, trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is as counter-productive as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.


> She was meant to sort out counseling but hasn't.


If she has strong BPD traits, her issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. MC therefore is likely to be useless until the BPDer has had several years of IC to address her more serious issues. As to IC, there are many excellent treatment programs available. They too will be useless, however, unless the BPDer has a strong desire to take advantage of them. Hence, forcing a BPDer into going to IC likely will only result in her playing very expensive mind games with the psychologist.


> I don't know what to do. Nothing seems to work.


I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. While you are waiting for an appointment, I suggest you read my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread to see if most sound very familiar. It starts at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Soupy.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She sounds mentally ill but only a doctor can dx her properly. If she is, then she needs professional treatment which may include medication. It may be biologically based because you said she is like her mother.

Good luck.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't perceive anxiety in the situation but I definitely perceive signs of borderline personality disorder. It doesn't sound so much like bipolar to me, either, although I suppose it's possible. Uptown's information is very thorough and useful.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

If you think she is ill have her evaluated by a psychiatrist. I have bipolar disorder and without medication I can become irritable. With medication I am easygoing and laid back.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Wow, thanks for all the replies

Uptown, that sounds spot on


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Soupy.

Uptown have Copied and pasted your text above, not sure how to quote part of a message like you have?

Would like to discuss further as need all the advice I can get tO deal with this

All the best


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

I know I am talking uk law and there may not be the expertise here but say she is diagnosed with bpd, I wonder if that means we can get an annulment since the marriage is less than one year


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> not sure how to quote part of a message like you have?


Soupy, one way is to simply click on "Quote" below the post you are responding to. Then delete the text that is not relevant. Another way is to click on "Go Advanced" when replying. That gives you options at the top of the text box -- one of which is a tiny speech baloon (like you see in comic strips). When you highlight a sentence of text and then click on that baloon symbol, quote brackets will automatically be placed at the beginning and end of your highlighted text.


Thereisawomaninmysoup said:


> Say she is diagnosed with bpd, I wonder if that means we can get an annulment....


Soupy, even assuming your W has full-blown BPD, you have about a zero chance of getting a psychologist to diagnose her and then testify in court. Like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein in client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.

I mention all this to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no bus coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk. Even when BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold for "having BPD," they can be strong enough to make your life miserable, harm the children, and undermine the marriage.

On top of that problem with the absurd diagnosis methodology, you would face another big hurdle trying to use this information in court: therapists generally are loath to tell high functioning BPDers -- much less a court or their spouses -- the name of their disorder. There are four main reasons for this withholding of the diagnosis from the client, which I explain in COguy's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.


> Would like to discuss further as need all the advice I can get to deal with this.


As I said, I will be glad to discuss the BPD information with you. But, after having provided you with several pages of information on it (in this thread and the one I linked to), I have no idea what BPD traits seem to apply most strongly to your W's behavior. Nor do I know what parts you are having trouble following (after all, it is a large amount of information for you to try to digest all at once). 

The result is that I don't know where to start a discussion unless you give me feedback in the form of comments (on what seems most applicable) and questions (on what is unclear). Once you start doing that, you will get responses not only from me but from other members too. There are many members here who have been down the same path, being in a toxic relationship with someone having moderate to strong BPD traits.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi

I had a few more questions that have come to light

1. If everyone has bpd symptoms to some extent, at what stage of severity would one consider bpd to be present as such. A lot of comments on the forum refer to my wife having bpd which I agree with but a lot of the Internet websites and tests, etc are inconclusive.

We have now talked about bpd and are going to get it checked out and have also booked a counselling session. She is open to going to a gp but totally thinks she doesn't have it. She can act so nice "white" and im afraid the gp wont see through it and will just say get counselling like the national health service nurse did on the phone when I rung up.

Any advice, must I prepare anything before going to a gp.

2. When she is splitting me black is there anything I can do to stop her. Walk out? Say nothing? Be very soothing? What is best as nothing seems to work. The anger is so fierce and unrelenting.

She says I provoke it but the wrath I received over a comment about looking for toothpaste the other day was crazy.

3. Is there really no way back? I feel like I definitely can't have kids with her as I can't trust her and I do want kids even if I could somehow pacify the black splitting which I am not confident on.

4. Has anyone been through annulment on the grounds of mental health? It seems very hard to prove and push through. A lawyer said to me it wasn't extreme enough but when I get split black it seems pretty extreme to me!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Thereisawomaninmysoup said:


> If everyone has bpd symptoms to some extent, at what stage of severity would one consider bpd to be present as such.


I am not qualified to determine whether a person's BPD traits are so strong and persistent as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having the disorder," i.e., having full-blown BPD. Only professionals can make that determination, which is called "a diagnosis." This is why I've encouraged you to see a psychologist -- by yourself -- to obtain a candid opinion on what it is you're dealing with.

Yet, for the purposes of deciding whether to remain married to her, it really does not matter whether her BPD traits meet that diagnostic threshold. That is, it does not matter whether she has full blown BPD. As I explained above, such traits can make your life miserable even when they fall far short of that threshold. This is why, as I noted, the APA is in the process of abandoning its BPD diagnostic procedures and replacing them with a new graduated approach.


> A lot of comments on the forum refer to my wife having bpd which I agree with but a lot of the Internet websites and tests, etc are inconclusive.


No, the comments do not say "she has BPD" but, rather, that she MAY have BPD -- or that you are describing classic traits of BPD. There is a world of difference between diagnosing that someone "has BPD" and spotting the red flags for BPD. Only professionals can diagnose it. Yet, as I said earlier, spotting the red flags is not difficult once you know what to look for.

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. Further, when those BPD traits are making your life miserable, it simply does not matter whether they so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD.


> Any advice, must I prepare anything before going to a gp.


My advice is DON'T GO to a GP if, in England, that term means "General Practitioner" like here in the USA. In my view, it would be a total waste of time. Medical doctors are not trained to spot the red flags for BPD, much less diagnose it. Indeed, as I explained above, even MC by a therapist also is likely to be a waste of time. What she needs, if she has strong BPD traits, is several years of IC (at a minimum) from a psychologist who knows how to treat BPDers.


> She is open to going to a gp but totally thinks she doesn't have it.


Because BPD is a thought distortion that a person has been living with since early childhood, most BPDers are unaware they have it. Moreover, when you suspect your W has strong BPD traits, it generally is best NOT to tell her because, if she does have it, she almost certainly will deny it -- and likely will project your accusation back onto you, with the result that she will believe YOU are the one having such traits. 

The best thing you can do for her, IMO, is simply suggest that she see a clinical psychologist about her unhappiness and anger. As I noted earlier, even the psych is unlikely to tell her the name of her disorder if she is a high functioning BPDer. I explain the four reasons for that at the link provided above.


> She can act so nice "white" and im afraid the gp wont see through it and will just say get counseling like the national health service nurse did on the phone when I rung up.


I agree. GPs are not trained to spot it. Indeed, it may even take a year or more for a trained psychologist to spot it because high functioning BPDers are usually skillful at hiding their traits around people they are not close to. It therefore could take a very long time for a psych to see the anger and other traits that you see all week long.


> When she is splitting me black is there anything I can do to stop her. Walk out? Say nothing? Be very soothing? What is best as nothing seems to work?


Divorce works nicely, particularly when you have no kids and have been married only 7 months. Divorce is what I had to do -- after taking my W to weekly visits for 15 years with 6 psychologists and several MCs -- all at enormous expense but to no avail. Please do not follow my path, Soupy. It did not end well.


> Is there really no way back? I feel like I definitely can't have kids with her as I can't trust her.


Soupy, it took me 15 years to learn that, when a woman is incapable of trusting YOU, you can never really trust HER -- because she can turn on you, with a vengence, at any time. Until she learns how to trust and love herself, she will be incapable of trusting you for any extended period of time.


> Has anyone been through annulment on the grounds of mental health? It seems very hard to prove and push through.


As I said earlier, if your W is a high functioning BPDer, it is extremely unlikely you will get a psychologist to diagnose her and then testify to that in court. Typically, he won't even want to tell her the name of her disorder. I therefore believe your attorney is correct in being skeptical about it.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

I agree. I think basically the only answer is divorce.

I will cancel the appointment with the GP.

I will goto a counsellor on my own perhaps....probably better to just talk through some of the issues. Only one session, nothing to lose.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Soupy, are you still around? Have you had an opportunity yet to speak with an IC? Have you filed for divorce? I'm concerned about how you are doing.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

Hi uptown

Am going to see a solicitor tomorrow. Hoping to get all the facts on the table so next steps are clear.

Hard as she threatened to goto the police again the other day when we argued and she threatened to leave the flat in the middle of the night. I know I should let her go but I am still concerned about her safety. I should just let her go but then I'm scared she will goto the police. So I stopped her going out by blocking her path and then she put her hands around my throat and I forced them off and she said this was assault.

I hid her keys and eventually managed to calm her down.

Today was wonderful. Feel a bit guilty about tomorrow but I know I shouldn't. It is a complicated matter which involves international law.

I'm trying to get her to fly to south Africa to be back with her family, separation is best. They are going on holiday and have invited her on 6th October so am targeting that but our birthdays are in October and she is saying she wants to spend those together so don't know how to get her out the flat or get her to goto SA. A massive mess really. I could just book a flight for her and force the issue, I guess if I do that she will probably go but unpredictable on how she will react. 

I'm also saying that she can find work easier in SA. All very hard. I do fear a long and messy divorce but hoping that given the short marriage of less than a year and the lack of financial input to anything in this period on her part should count for something but I know from some initial research into uk law there is some common sense but it not completely clear cut. 

I also have 3 recordings which are quite useful in demonstrating one of her very abusive episodes so I hope anyone that would listen to these recordings would instantly realise what a nightmare it is and how abusive she can be. Hopefully grounds for divorce. She is really nasty on the tape.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Soupy, I'm so glad to hear you will be seeing an attorney tomorrow. By trying to protect her from herself, you are placing yourself at far greater risk than you can imagine. I did the same thing with my exW, staying to protect her. She called the police and had me thrown into jail for three days on a bogus charge -- and then easily obtained a RO forcing me out of my own home for 18 months (what is required to get a divorce here in this State). I therefore believe the sooner you get her out, the better.

As to SA, your W will be returning to such a beautiful country -- from what I was able to see several years ago. I was in Pretoria and Joannesburg on business for a week. Got to see Pretoria when the jacaranda trees were all in full bloom.


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## Thereisawomaninmysoup (Aug 24, 2012)

An update from me as haven't been on here since I left my wife

Well quite a lot of time has passed.

I haven't seen her at all, have been in touch a bit mainly via text.

She wants me back but has been acting very strangely.

Anyway I served the papers.

Was difficult to get hold of the marriage certificate.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Soupy, thanks for coming back to give us an update. I'm glad to hear that you got away from her safely even though you were unable to persuade her to return to her South Africa home last October. Like your STBXW, my exW still wants to get back together with me -- but I have stayed away from her now for over five years.


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## The Seahorse Guy (Apr 17, 2013)

Post deleted as I hadn't read far enough through the thread.

Glad to read that you got it together.


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## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

SH beat me to my reply. The main thing I would thing about is having children with this woman. I think you made a good choice not to have her as a role model for any daughters. I'm sorry this has happened, but it's better to realize there are problems now before you have kids in the mix. Stay strong and healthy.


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