# Did you lose your wife after you had kids?



## nirvana

In my case, we got married 15 years ago, and I was the only one for her and she was the only one for me. We live in the US, relatives in India. After we got married she started a Masters program and the plan was to work, but then she got pregnant.

After we had our first child 10 years ago, she was still a SAHM and she took her mom duties very seriously. This is good, but she began to take me for granted. I should "understand" that she is a mom now and not demand attention. When our second was born, it became worse and I just became a paycheck and a funding source for her life projects (our kids). She was a SAHM at this time as well and became resentful towards me that I wasn't doing my "fair share" of work on the kids. I always wondered, what about the income that you so nicely use - where does that come from? Me of course.

Nowadays, she does not want to do anything just with me. If I want to take her on a date, she wants to bring the kids along. Everything is kids kids kids. Then she accuses me of not loving them enough.

So my question is, did any of you experience the same of losing your wife after the kids arrived? Did you fix the situation, if so how?


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## samyeagar

nirvana said:


> In my case, we got married 15 years ago, and I was the only one for her and she was the only one for me. We live in the US, relatives in India. After we got married she started a Masters program and the plan was to work, but then she got pregnant.
> 
> After we had our first child 10 years ago, she was still a SAHM and she took her mom duties very seriously. This is good, but she began to take me for granted. I should "understand" that she is a mom now and not demand attention. When our second was born, it became worse and I just became a paycheck and a funding source for her life projects (our kids). She was a SAHM at this time as well and became resentful towards me that I wasn't doing my "fair share" of work on the kids. I always wondered, what about the income that you so nicely use - where does that come from? Me of course.
> 
> Nowadays, she does not want to do anything just with me. If I want to take her on a date, she wants to bring the kids along. Everything is kids kids kids. Then she accuses me of not loving them enough.
> 
> So my question is, *did any of you experience the same of losing your wife after the kids arrived? Did you fix the situation, if so how*?


I did experience this, much as you describe it here, and your other threads. I also had the joy of her being diagnosed NPD. I fixed it by divorcing her.


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## nirvana

My theory is women look at sex just as a way of having kids. Once this goal is reached, then sex is not needed. They get their needs met through other means like kids. Of course, not everyone is like this, but most are I think.

I think my wife feels she doesn't have do fulfill my emotional needs and justifies by saying "I take care of YOUR kids so nicely". So she thinks she is doing me a favor by taking care of OUR kids. She thinks that somehow transfers to me getting my need of togetherness fulfilled.

I find myself more closely tuned to other people than my own wife.

What is NPD?


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## samyeagar

Narcissistic Personality Disorder. True NPD is the stuff nightmares are made of.


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## nirvana

samyeagar said:


> Narcissistic Personality Disorder. True NPD is the stuff nightmares are made of.


My wife is narcissistic (I think). She gets it from her dad who gloats about himself all the time. He is always taking credit for anything that goes well. My wife comes by and tells me every day how someone praised her or said how amazing she was. Never a nice word for anyone else.


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## NobodySpecial

For us it was a several tiered solution. DH did to really like the baby stage. I had to totally get over that It did not make him a bad Dad. It did not mean he did not live his kids. And I had to recognize that I was his WIFE not just the kids' mother. For us the action plan was:

- Learn decent discipline techniques early. Much of MY difficulty stemmed from not being effective with discipline. I took point on that activity. He was not really down with it until he started seeing the benefits.

- He started stepping up the family and kid time. Regardless of whether I was working outside of the home at the time (I did both at various times), he made the investment in connecting with the kids, reducing my sense of 24x7 mom ness, the sense that I was on the job all the time. This was way easier for him after the baby stage, but he sucked it up and dealt during the baby stage.

- Babies slept in a cradle in our room as newborns. Then in their crib in their room. Period.

We had already gone through a bout of unhappy resentment that resulted in very little sex prior to having kids. We had worked out good problem resolution. We both knew that we wanted a healthy relationship not just to stay married. He was very very patient with me returning to sexual activity afterward. I was scared. New motherhood was not easy for me since I felt like I had no idea what I was doing. 

We continued to listen to each other. He did and does listen to the things I want and need. I would have to say that he lead the charge in that area. That I would have gotten stuck in a right fight if he had not changed that dynamic.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> My wife is narcissistic (I think). She gets it from her dad who gloats about himself all the time. He is always taking credit for anything that goes well. My wife comes by and tells me every day how someone praised her or said how amazing she was. Never a nice word for anyone else.


Sounds more insecure than anything else.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Sounds more insecure than anything else.


What could she be insecure about? She has a better life than most around us. She is negative minded though. Glass half full always.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> What could she be insecure about? She has a better life than most around us. She is negative minded though. Glass half full always.


Just not a husband who listens to her concerns but instead explains away why he is "right".


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## NobodySpecial

What does she say when you ask her this?


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## Thor

Yes, my wife became 100% oriented to the children. This is a common problem in the modern world, where we have so much disposable income, and endless "opportunities" for our children. Sports, music, dance, etc. People feel the need to lavish all the "benefits" of these opportunities on their children.

Imo, much of this is a detriment to the kids. One activity that they really enjoy is fine. But many activities take over the entire family's life.

The manifestation of this when the kids are younger is just as bad. Everything is arranged around the kids' schedules.

The marriage is the main foundation of the family. Without a good vibrant marriage the family will fail, and that means the parents fail to do best for the kids. The parents model a terrible relationship for the kids, who then grow up to have dysfunctional marriages.

My point is your wife is not doing what is best for the children by neglecting her marriage. Neglect it enough and it goes away.

I learned far too late that my wife has childhood trauma which led her to have a dysfunctional compulsion to do everything for the children. I did not know the cause, so my attempts at changing things were too weak and ineffectual.

What you need to do is lead the family and set boundaries. You have to decide what is acceptable to you, and then enforce it. This is the part about her neglecting the marriage to the point of the marriage going away. You have to be willing to let her know she is on that path, but there is still time to change things. The marriage has to be the priority, not the kids. Yes the kids have absolute needs, like changing diapers or transporting them to school in the morning. But much of what she is doing for them can probably be eliminated. The kids need to learn independence and self sufficiency, so it will be good for them to do more for themselves. They also need time to just be kids, without all the organized events (if that is part of the problem in your family).


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## nirvana

I think our marriage is almost over.
Ilast night I slept in the spare bedroom for the first time in our marriage.
I am in the process of mentally disassociating my mind from her. She can then have 100% time with the kids and I can see what to do with the rest of my life.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Just not a husband who listens to her concerns but instead explains away why he is "right".


I give her my opinion when she asks for it. It may or may not be the same as what she thinks.

I do listen to all her concerns and issues from work. I am just not hen-pecked, which is what she wants me to be. She once told me "I am not able to rule over you". She thinks her friends "rule" their husbands.

What is she doing to make me feel good? Nothing. "I cook you dinner" and "I pack you lunch" isn't enough. She doesn't even do my laundry now. Women today are all about taking and not giving.


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## nirvana

Thor said:


> Yes, my wife became 100% oriented to the children. This is a common problem in the modern world, where we have so much disposable income, and endless "opportunities" for our children. Sports, music, dance, etc. People feel the need to lavish all the "benefits" of these opportunities on their children.
> 
> Imo, much of this is a detriment to the kids. One activity that they really enjoy is fine. But many activities take over the entire family's life.
> 
> The manifestation of this when the kids are younger is just as bad. Everything is arranged around the kids' schedules.
> 
> The marriage is the main foundation of the family. Without a good vibrant marriage the family will fail, and that means the parents fail to do best for the kids. The parents model a terrible relationship for the kids, who then grow up to have dysfunctional marriages.
> 
> My point is your wife is not doing what is best for the children by neglecting her marriage. Neglect it enough and it goes away.
> 
> I learned far too late that my wife has childhood trauma which led her to have a dysfunctional compulsion to do everything for the children. I did not know the cause, so my attempts at changing things were too weak and ineffectual.
> 
> What you need to do is lead the family and set boundaries. You have to decide what is acceptable to you, and then enforce it. This is the part about her neglecting the marriage to the point of the marriage going away. You have to be willing to let her know she is on that path, but there is still time to change things. The marriage has to be the priority, not the kids. Yes the kids have absolute needs, like changing diapers or transporting them to school in the morning. But much of what she is doing for them can probably be eliminated. The kids need to learn independence and self sufficiency, so it will be good for them to do more for themselves. They also need time to just be kids, without all the organized events (if that is part of the problem in your family).



That is all she is interested in. Kids Classes, tennis, dance, karate, soccer. She wants to tuck them into bed at night but spends 30 mins with them and even falls asleep many times. Then she has no time for me and turns over and falls asleep. She is tired, but so am I. Now all she can think about is the kids "science project". And she berates me for not helping. It's the kids project, they should do it themselves. I hate myself for letting her be SAHM when she should have been working. She got comfortable and now this is coming to bite me when she thinks I do "nothing".

She has me trapped in the sense that she gets what she wants (my paycheck and material luxuries) but does not want to give anything in return because I cannot just take them away (I won't throw her out, she knows that). The things that I manage are the "long haul" things like retirement, kid's college saving etc. Whether I mow the lawn or not, she does not care. The only way is if I can find ways she will feel the difference and it hurts her.


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## Constable Odo

nirvana said:


> Nowadays, she does not want to do anything just with me. If I want to take her on a date, she wants to bring the kids along. Everything is kids kids kids. Then she accuses me of not loving them enough.


It's a common ailment most men, once they have served their purpose as sperm donors and their wives no longer have any use for them, encounter. It is called "Mommy Mode".



samyeagar said:


> I fixed it by divorcing her.


Yup. This.


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## jin

OP i read one of your earlier threads and you referred to your FIL as sleazy and made other remarks about MIL. I'm curious why you married your wife with so little respect for her parents? 

What does your wife think about your low opinion of them? 

I got the feeling you were just venting but now you are talking about leaving your wife. Doesn't seem to be the full story here.


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## nirvana

jin said:


> OP i read one of your earlier threads and you referred to your FIL as sleazy and made other remarks about MIL. I'm curious why you married your wife with so little respect for her parents?
> 
> What does your wife think about your low opinion of them?
> 
> I got the feeling you were just venting but now you are talking about leaving your wife. Doesn't seem to be the full story here.


Yes, I don't have much respect for my FIL. He is very unethical and is a master manipulator. He is an MCP of the first order and treats my MIL very poorly. She cannot move a muscle without his permission. 
My FIL tries to control everybody. At the same time he wants to come across as a good guy with love in his heart. My wife was a daddy's girl but then most girls are. My wife seems to have taken after him as far as manipulation goes. She cannot fathom why she cannot be my remote control. Then she points to FB where her friends husbands post pictures of themselves with the kids to prove how better with kids they are than me. I am sick of this. Should I show her pictures of loving wives? Her reply will always be to blame me "she is loving because her husband treats her like a queen". I married a mental midget.

I was venting, but yesterday was a big explosion. Wife and I are not on talking terms. We don't even look at each other.


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## lkjhgfdsa

I am in the same situation. Married twenty years with two teenage kids. I never would have thought that at this point that it would still be about the kids all the time. I have just decided to give up and go with it. I'm not saying that this is the best advice but for me it ain't worth the fight.


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## nirvana

lkjhgfdsa said:


> I am in the same situation. Married twenty years with two teenage kids. I never would have thought that at this point that it would still be about the kids all the time. I have just decided to give up and go with it. I'm not saying that this is the best advice but for me it ain't worth the fight.


What does "go with it" mean.

In the meantime I am cutting out all dependencies I have on her. I can forego sex. I can make my own lunch or eat out at work. She has to cook dinner for the kids, so I will just grab some. She uses me so I will use her. She will also do the grocery shopping. I won't be around to hear her complain anymore.

I realized that I am a "nice guy". The book describes me very well. I spent the afternoon reading it. Let's see if it helps.


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## lkjhgfdsa

I just mean that I have decided to try and accept the way things are and try and deal with it. I am not saying that you should. I can't emotionally take another fight about us spending time together. You would think I was asking for a threesome with her sister! Its absolutely crazy but I don't no what else to do but give up....


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## nirvana

If one has a wife like this, an affair seems justified.


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## staarz21

nirvana said:


> If one has a wife like this, an affair seems justified.


No. It doesn't. Divorce seems justified. 

You said earlier that your wife can have 100% time with the kids and you will be free to live your life. Are you planning on staying in your children's lives after the divorce? I might have read that wrong, I'm sorry.

Another question, if you don't mind because I haven't read your other threads, sorry!!! Have you told your wife you are working towards a divorce? How do you think she would react if you told her you are ready?


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## soccermom2three

For me, it was totally the opposite. I felt like I lost my husband. He got more wrapped up in work and hobbies. I pretty much did all the child care and worked full time.

How much do you actually help out with the kids? Or is it considered "women's work" to you?


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## lkjhgfdsa

I seriously mean no disrespect but is there a chance he got wrapped up in work because you were too wrapped up in what you were doing?


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## Forest

You're in the modern, Western trap.

If a wife feels neglected by her husband because all he does is work, work, work -- there is a well defined course for pointing out his errors. He is selfish and not "meeting her needs". 

Yet, for a husband to complain about a wife neglecting him is also selfish. He should devote more time to helping out. Then, you're hit with the typical double whammy. "Jane's husband does this, that and the other thing." Jane's husband also travels half the month, has a huge expense account, mistress and huge credit card balance, but that doesn't show up on Facebook.

Similarly, a dad who spends all his time with the kid's interests and ignores his wife is also a heel. 

Its a goose/gander scenario. Your wife is just as much a heel, as an overbooked dad. Handle it the same way. "Honey, either you start meeting my needs, or I'm taking the kids and leaving."

Wait. That won't work. You can't take the kids and leave, because you are male. You may have to modify it to "Either you start meeting my needs, or you'll have to see the kids two fewer weekends a month, and find a job." ??

The point is, like always, you have to ready to lose all and walk away, or you'll be manipulated to your dying day by people like your wife, her dad, etc.


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## nirvana

Forest, your post describes my situation so well!

I am working towards cutting out all dependency on her. If she uses me, I use her as well.

Loved your example about janes husband, I face that all the time.


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## lkjhgfdsa

Well said!!!


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## joannacroc

I am wondering if you have talked this over with her? Have you tried just hiring a babysitter one night as a surprise and taking her out somewhere romantic? I get that her expectations are unrealistic but I think what she is getting at in her naive way is actually a salient point, she doesn't feel valued by you. It sounds like you don't feel valued by her either. 

My response is kind of colored by personal experience, but in my case my husband started pulling away when I was pregnant and to try and retain some sanity, I refocused my emotional energy on our son. 

Maybe I'm reading too much into this but could what's really happening be that you both feel resentful of one another because you're not spending any time communicating or just spending time together the two of you? If she questions taking a date night, point out that you two are the foundation on which the family is built, so it'd be a good idea to try and work on being together.

Try and look at things from her side. The demands of motherhood as a SAHM often feel overwhelming so while it sounds like she loves it, she might need some help to remember what it's like to be seen as a desirable woman, rather than just a mom. Which is why I was suggesting the date night. Does that sound like something you might be able to try?


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## kristin2349

nirvana said:


> If one has a wife like this, an affair seems justified.


An affair is never justified. 

By engaging in such despicable behavior you will be worse than your FIL that you are calling sleazy and unethical. What a hypocrite that would make you.


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## nirvana

kristin2349 said:


> An affair is never justified.
> 
> By engaging in such despicable behavior you will be worse than your FIL that you are calling sleazy and unethical. What a hypocrite that would make you.


Yes, I agree.


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## soccermom2three

lkjhgfdsa said:


> I seriously mean no disrespect but is there a chance he got wrapped up in work because you were too wrapped up in what you were doing?


Are you asking me? If you are, then the answer is no. I'm not sure how I was "wrapped up" in what I was doing. I was working full time, cooking, cleaning and taking care of a baby. Someone has to do it or it doesn't get done.


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## kristin2349

Nirvana:

You have built a very solid foundation for a very good life for yourself and your wife and children. 

As the head of the family, would you consider finding a marriage counselor and making an appointment and telling your wife you want to get these issues resolved. Then go in there and bring the issues up in front of a counselor. They are valid complaints and can probably be easily resolved with a decent mediator.

Would that be something you would consider?


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## lkjhgfdsa

Really? I'm not necessarily condoning an affair but this idea that one partner in a marriage can work outside the marriage vows and not provide what the other partner needs is acceptable but for the other partner to get what they need is despicable. I guess I just don't like things being painted in such broad strokes.


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## HHB

Speaking from personal experience, as bad as things are now they will get worse when the kids are grown and gone. 

An empty nested entitled woman is a fearsome creature indeed. 

In my case I transitioned from husband to ATM with the delivery of our second child. She was a stay at home mom who hated it but hated the idea of actual work even more. She became something of a social butterfly...Junior League, community theater,and chorale. Finally she was off doing something three nights a week. 

I vowed to stay because of the kiddos. Mistake! They knew and the wife's ugly overweening behavior caused my daughter significant psychological problems. 

So the kids left. The dog died and the cat ran off. She could focus now on me with laser like attention and make me perfect. 

I pulled the plug on her laser and the marriage. Became a bachelor at age 58. Dated some amazing women and at age 63 married a wonderful sexy woman who makes every day a joy. 

Life is short. Eat dessert first. Don't stay in a bad marriage.


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## lkjhgfdsa

Good for you!!!


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## lkjhgfdsa

Soccer mom,
I guess I was just trying to make the point that tending to the marriage is just as important if not more then household chores. I'm only trying to give you some insight from my end of things. I have often felt and told my wife that I wish I was as important as a speck of dust on the floor. again I don't know your situation I'm just trying to give you some insight.


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## meson

nirvana said:


> In my case, we got married 15 years ago, and I was the only one for her and she was the only one for me. We live in the US, relatives in India. After we got married she started a Masters program and the plan was to work, but then she got pregnant.
> 
> After we had our first child 10 years ago, she was still a SAHM and she took her mom duties very seriously. This is good, but she began to take me for granted. I should "understand" that she is a mom now and not demand attention. When our second was born, it became worse and I just became a paycheck and a funding source for her life projects (our kids). She was a SAHM at this time as well and became resentful towards me that I wasn't doing my "fair share" of work on the kids. I always wondered, what about the income that you so nicely use - where does that come from? Me of course.
> 
> Nowadays, she does not want to do anything just with me. If I want to take her on a date, she wants to bring the kids along. Everything is kids kids kids. Then she accuses me of not loving them enough.
> 
> So my question is, did any of you experience the same of losing your wife after the kids arrived? Did you fix the situation, if so how?


I've been through the exact same thing as you. I spent too much time with finances and not enough time being the person she fell in love with.

I told you about what you need to do in your last thread...

I will attempt one last time. It's not about you and it's not about finances. It's about what your wife wants and needs. Figure it out and you may have a chance. Make her your focus.


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## nirvana

meson said:


> I've been through the exact same thing as you. I spent too much time with finances and not enough time being the person she fell in love with.
> 
> I told you about what you need to do in your last thread...
> 
> I will attempt one last time. It's not about you and it's not about finances. It's about what your wife wants and needs. Figure it out and you may have a chance. Make her your focus.


She wants to control me and make me her robot because she is jealous of Facebook pictures and wants to keep up with the Kumars. How does focusing on her help in this case?

And shouldn't she be focusing on me rather than 100% on the kids in the same way you prescribe?


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## lkjhgfdsa

It doesn't. you have to focus on you!


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## nirvana

lkjhgfdsa said:


> It doesn't. you have to focus on you!


That's what the No More Nice Guy book says. And that is what I am going to do. First thing I am going to get rid of the wallet I have had since 2002!
She planned on giving me a new one for my birthday this year, but "forgot". She never forgets the kid's clothes.


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## lkjhgfdsa

she should be focusing on you but if she's not there's not much you can do about it


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## meson

nirvana said:


> She wants to control me and make me her robot because she is jealous of Facebook pictures and wants to keep up with the Kumars. How does focusing on her help in this case?
> 
> And shouldn't she be focusing on me rather than 100% on the kids in the same way you prescribe?


Again you sidestep the issue. YOU need to get in touch with your wife and figure out what she needs and wants rather than making these kinds of assumptions. This is your problem.


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## nirvana

kristin2349 said:


> Nirvana:
> 
> You have built a very solid foundation for a very good life for yourself and your wife and children.
> 
> As the head of the family, would you consider finding a marriage counselor and making an appointment and telling your wife you want to get these issues resolved. Then go in there and bring the issues up in front of a counselor. They are valid complaints and can probably be easily resolved with a decent mediator.
> 
> Would that be something you would consider?


I know it, but she has no appreciation for what she has. 
My Dr friend also suggested counseling. I will look into it. I probably need an Indian counselor so that they know the cultural issues.

I am not looking to divorce, but I am very unhappy and am sick of being manipulated.


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## nirvana

meson said:


> Again you sidestep the issue. YOU need to get in touch with your wife and figure out what she needs and wants rather than making these kinds of assumptions. This is your problem.


She says "spend more time with kids". If I do, she says spend some more, Mr X went cycling with his kids". She shifts goal posts all the time. 2 years ago, it was "take up a sport" because her friend's husband did it. I did, and got hooked because I was a player in my younger days. 3 hour games on Saturdays and she hated me for it.
No pleasing this woman.

The only thing I can see is I should stop caring and wanting her validation.


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## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> My theory is women look at sex just as a way of having kids. Once this goal is reached, then sex is not needed. They get their needs met through other means like kids. Of course, not everyone is like this, but most are I think.?


You apparently don't know a lot about women. Not this is not what most women are like. Most women really enjoy sex, they want sex and they have lots of it.

Some women do what your wife has done. Sometimes it's hormonal. Sometimes it's because they are not happy with their relationship with their husband and thus are basically turned off to him.

Did you know that men are as likely to make a marriage sexless, or near sexless, as women are? About 20% of marriages have this problem.

There are a lot of threads here on TAM from women whose husbands don't want sex. As more women come forward with it, more are speaking up. 



nirvana said:


> I think my wife feels she doesn't have do fulfill my emotional needs and justifies by saying "I take care of YOUR kids so nicely". So she thinks she is doing me a favor by taking care of OUR kids. She thinks that somehow transfers to me getting my need of togetherness fulfilled.
> 
> I find myself more closely tuned to other people than my own wife.



Have you looked at the info on Divorce Busting about how to get through to a woman who is like your wife? Have you read "His Needs, Her Needs".. it has a chapter for women to read about this.


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## EleGirl

nirvana said:


> I give her my opinion when she asks for it. It may or may not be the same as what she thinks.
> 
> *I do listen to all her concerns and issues from work.* I am just not hen-pecked, which is what she wants me to be. She once told me "I am not able to rule over you". She thinks her friends "rule" their husbands.
> 
> What is she doing to make me feel good? Nothing. "I cook you dinner" and "I pack you lunch" isn't enough. She doesn't even do my laundry now. Women today are all about taking and not giving.


Your wife works outside the home? 

How many hours a week does she work?


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## jin

You hate her parents so I'm wondering why you married her. Is she a trophy wife? And this is now a case of buyers remorse?


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## Forest

meson said:


> It's about what your wife wants and needs. Figure it out and you may have a chance. Make her your focus.





meson said:


> YOU need to get in touch with your wife and figure out what she needs and wants... This is your problem.


Sound familiar Nirvana? Though she seems already content, she must need more, or she'd treat you better.

Regardless the circumstances, her behavior, our the steps you've taken to try to correct the problems, you are the one that is the problem. Her needs trump yours, which are non-issues. She doesn't care about you. She only cares about her idealized family life, so she tries to direct you into the roles that will best suit her goals.

She's has disregarded you, and it doesn't matter to her. Dropped her spouse in favor of herself, and kids. You need the help of a professional.


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## nirvana

EleGirl said:


> Your wife works outside the home?
> 
> How many hours a week does she work?


Yes, since middle of last year. Full time job, 40 hours a week.


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## thread the needle

Yes I lost my wife after we had kids. I am not a priority and neither is our marriage. The kids are. I dropped the ball working too much and taking her for granted. She warned me and I quit that cold turkey and made her number one priority and it is working but not as fast as I want it to.


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## samyeagar

nirvana said:


> Yes, since middle of last year. Full time job, 40 hours a week.


And let me guess...she now presents it to anyone who will listen how hard she works, looking for the sympathy, while over the past years when she was not working outside the home, there was nary a mention or even recognition of how hard you work?


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## soccermom2three

This one of those threads where I wish the other spouse was here too so we can here both sides.

I'm always skeptical when a poster doesn't have one nice thing to say about their spouse. It's always "me good, spouse bad". Of course then we get the knee jerk reactions from other poster about the awfulness of the other spouse. 

I think it's very rare for a crappy marriage to only be one person's fault. When two people live together they create a dynamic to deal with each other. It's either inspiring or destructive


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
Years ago my wife and I took in a foster child. This caused huge problems and we were miserable. 

We have seen the relationships of several of our friends suffer badly when they had kids. 

A friend of mine likes to say "babies ruin lives" from the experiences of people he knows.


Its really really difficult. Raising children is so difficult that both parents feel that somehow they are shouldering most of the burden. 

Some people are very happy with children, but for those that I have seen, they are happy because their lives are wrapped around their children and that is what they want.


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## Thor

nirvana said:


> She has me trapped in the sense that she gets what she wants (my paycheck and material luxuries) but does not want to give anything in return because I cannot just take them away (*I won't throw her out, she knows that*). The things that I manage are the "long haul" things like retirement, kid's college saving etc. Whether I mow the lawn or not, she does not care. The only way is if I can find ways she will feel the difference and it hurts her.





lkjhgfdsa said:


> I am in the same situation. Married twenty years with two teenage kids. I never would have thought that at this point that it would still be about the kids all the time. *I have just decided to give up and go with it.* I'm not saying that this is the best advice but for me it ain't worth the fight.


I was in the same place 10 years ago, 20 years ago. Then the kids started leaving for college. The last one graduated high school last year. Guess what changed at home? _Nothing_. She learned to have her own separate life from me.

This is the dynamic of why there is a huge peak in divorce in the first year of empty nest.

And now 10 or 20 years later she will get half of everything. Half the equity in the house, _half of retirement accounts_, half of any pension you qualify for, and _half of all your future earnings_ as alimony.

I had a *Prime Directive* from the early days of having kids, _Divorce is not an option_. This made it impossible to make any substantive changes. Realize that your wife is neglecting you, _the marriage, and the family_ with her behavior. _She is endangering your children's emotional well being_ with her neglect of you!

Your wife has some kind of defective thought process leading to this behavior. Whether she learned it from her own parents, from tv shows, or had some childhood trauma which is causing this, who knows. You have to step up and be the leader in correcting this.

For me, I regretted my acceptance of the status quo before the first one left for college, but there was no way to change things at that point.

So, If I couild do it over again, I would sit her down and tell her that a marriage is like teeth, neglect them long enough and they go away. I would explain that a strong vibrant happy marriage is both the foundation of a family, and the model the children will copy when they grow up. I would express my desire to work together with her to re-orient the marriage. I would even suggest MC, or to start working through some of the many excellent books.


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## nirvana

samyeagar said:


> And let me guess...she now presents it to anyone who will listen how hard she works, looking for the sympathy, while over the past years when she was not working outside the home, there was nary a mention or even recognition of how hard you work?


You got it, Sir.
She flies into a rage when I say "we all work hard, even the kids". Then I would just let her talk and praise herself if it makes herself feel good. She has self esteem problems so maybe its a way of coping. That is understandable, but putting me down is not.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat

soccermom2three said:


> This one of those threads where I wish the other spouse was here too so we can here both sides.
> 
> I'm always skeptical when a poster doesn't have one nice thing to say about their spouse. It's always "me good, spouse bad". Of course then we get the knee jerk reactions from other poster about the awfulness of the other spouse.
> 
> I think it's very rare for a crappy marriage to only be one person's fault. When two people live together they create a dynamic to deal with each other. It's either inspiring or destructive


Nirvana, 

I think there are many marriages that get stronger from children. I have seen women become superwomen, and are able to balance all the children's activities and be good wives too. However, please recognize that managing the demands that are placed on parents are huge. Feeding them right, helping with homework, reasearching and keeping track of the best enrichment programs can be daunting. This can come at the expense of their husbands. I think there are some women that go into mommy mode once they have children. Some seem to become entitled to ignore the needs of their husband. In fairness their are men who might change after marriage or children as well. 

Not to generalize but, I know some men from India have a tendency to treat women in general in an unkind or even subservient way. This may not fly with many modern women. 

It is conceivable your wife is harboring resentment that has nothing to do with Kids. Many men who work take an active role in their children's lives and or things around the house. Or perhaps she feels you have taken her for granted. This may not be the case or objectively this may not be warranted. Regardless, you have to get to the root of what she is feeling to see if it is correctable or if you can get things back on track. 

Divorce is not easy either unless you are willing to have a less significant role in your children's lives. 

Have you spoken to her? When she tells you her problems do you listen? As others have said there could be 2 sides to this story.


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## nirvana

soccermom2three said:


> This one of those threads where I wish the other spouse was here too so we can here both sides.
> 
> I'm always skeptical when a poster doesn't have one nice thing to say about their spouse. It's always "me good, spouse bad". Of course then we get the knee jerk reactions from other poster about the awfulness of the other spouse.
> 
> I think it's very rare for a crappy marriage to only be one person's fault. When two people live together they create a dynamic to deal with each other. It's either inspiring or destructive


No, she is good at many things.

*Good points.*
Great cook. Absolutely outstanding. She is a magician in the kitchen. All self-learned.
Great mother (though I think she overdoes it). But she loves her kids and puts in a lot of effort.
Great at nutrition, she cooks healthy stuff, we have not fallen sick in ages.
Looks great, I find myself checking her out so many times. It feels nice to go to parties with a beautiful wife.
Very intelligent. Except when she gets illogical in her anger.
Very hard working.

*Bad points*
Thinks she does it all herself.
Never acknowledges my love, support and help.
Compares me adversely with her friends husbands (he does this, why don't you?)
Never says thank you for anything I do like get her car fixed etc
Looks at the glass half full. I cleaned up our bedroom taking 2 hours and all she could say was a box that was in one corner.
I initiate sex which is once in 3 weeks.
Always looking to please others and be popular with others without realizing that she should try to please her husband first.

All I want is an occasional hug, an occasional "love you", understanding that I have our family's long term well being in mind, so I might not do what her friend's husbands do, and encourage me when things are difficult for me at work.

I cannot call her here because she would be angry at me for telling others out home issues. I have to do this to save all of us.


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## jorgegene

soccermom2three said:


> This one of those threads where I wish the other spouse was here too so we can here both sides.
> 
> I'm always skeptical when a poster doesn't have one nice thing to say about their spouse. It's always "me good, spouse bad". Of course then we get the knee jerk reactions from other poster about the awfulness of the other spouse.
> 
> I think it's very rare for a crappy marriage to only be one person's fault. When two people live together they create a dynamic to deal with each other. It's either inspiring or destructive


i agree with this, but with the caveat that there are a percentage of people out there who are basically selfish, or have personality disorders.

We must be self critical and introspective and be constantly analyzing our own behaviors to consider what WE are contributing to the marriage in bad and good ways.

we cannot have our marriages on autopilot. i think this is the mistake many make.

having said that, again, there are some incorrigibles


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## Pluto2

Most of your good points included back-handed criticisms
Your bad points all focus on you.

Just an observation


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## nirvana

I asked my Doctor friend to suggest the name of an Indian counselor and he sent me the name of a lady. Her office is on my wife's way to work. We are not on talking terms now, so I won't bring this up. When things cool down a bit, I will suggest this. She is trying to provoke me to make up by making threats. She wants me to make things normal again.


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## nirvana

Pluto2 said:


> Most of your good points included back-handed criticisms
> Your bad points all focus on you.
> 
> Just an observation


She is a great cook. How is that a criticism?? You are talking like my wife, I am afraid. A compliment is turned into a criticism.


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## Pluto2

nirvana said:


> She is a great cook. How is that a criticism?? You are talking like my wife, I am afraid. A compliment is turned into a criticism.


I get that she's a good cook, I have every reason to believe you are absolutely sincere.

Its the other items you mention, She's a good mother EXCEPT.... or she's intelligent EXCEPT
Your exceptions are more criticisms. That's my point. When you qualify your good points they are diminished to the point of not being a good point anymore.


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## Ceegee

Ironic screen name, Nirvana.

So, for those keeping score at home..

Wife complains about husbands family deficiences.

Husband cries about lack of love and intimacy.

And says divorce is not an option. 

Nirvana, she has absolutely no respect for you.

You cannot control her. You cannot make her do the things you want nor can you make her stop doing the things you don't like.

Those things will happen naturally between couples with mutal respect for one another.

You can take steps to regain respect by stating what is and what is not acceptable to you and having consequences for unacceptable behavior. One of those consequences must be divorce.


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## nirvana

Pluto2, you are just nitpicking, and looking for negatives where there are none. No one has any quality that is perfect, myself included. She scores 95 on a test, but she does lose 5 points on something. She is a great mom overall, but I think she can tone it down a bit. That is all.

Intelligent people can sometimes be illogical.

The "bad points" are of concern to me.


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## nirvana

It's really disheartening, I love my wife a lot, and I cannot believe that it has come to this.

Am I misreading the situation? To me it looks like she is looking to turn me into a henpecked husband. 

As of now, we are at a standoff. I'll see how things go until Wednesday and see what to do then.


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## nirvana

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> Nirvana,
> 
> I think there are many marriages that get stronger from children. I have seen women become superwomen, and are able to balance all the children's activities and be good wives too. However, please recognize that managing the demands that are placed on parents are huge. Feeding them right, helping with homework, reasearching and keeping track of the best enrichment programs can be daunting. This can come at the expense of their husbands. I think there are some women that go into mommy mode once they have children. Some seem to become entitled to ignore the needs of their husband. In fairness their are men who might change after marriage or children as well.
> 
> Not to generalize but, I know some men from India have a tendency to treat women in general in an unkind or even subservient way. This may not fly with many modern women.
> 
> It is conceivable your wife is harboring resentment that has nothing to do with Kids. Many men who work take an active role in their children's lives and or things around the house. Or perhaps she feels you have taken her for granted. This may not be the case or objectively this may not be warranted. Regardless, you have to get to the root of what she is feeling to see if it is correctable or if you can get things back on track.
> 
> Divorce is not easy either unless you are willing to have a less significant role in your children's lives.
> 
> Have you spoken to her? When she tells you her problems do you listen? As others have said there could be 2 sides to this story.


I am not among those guys who look down upon their wives. But I am also not henpecked or those who get kicked around. That is the problem here. I have encouraged her all through to get into a productive career that she wanted to have. Done all I could.

I don't want a divorce. Our poor kids will suffer the most. If she loves her kids so much, can't she see this?

Her big problem is she compares her life with all the fantastic lives people lead on Facebook from the pictures they post. Then she gets angry at me. Everyone on FB has an awesome husband, great vacations, nice gifts etc etc.


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## Pluto2

Look, I am trying to point out that the manner in which anyone communicates with a spouse can either help or hurt any situation. I understand you are greatly concerned over the state of your marriage. We all have good and bad points, and we all wish our partners could objectively recognize them. Most of us can't, or won't. What I was observing was that even when you are trying to list your wife's good points, you feel the need to insert a criticism. Perhaps, no way of knowing for sure, but perhaps that is what your wife is hearing. I not suggesting your should go around lavishing meaningless platitudes on her.

My ex was a lying, serial-cheating, manipulative, abuser. (For purposes of clarification, those were the bad points)
He was also creative, artistic, and possessed a wickedly-biting sense of humor (Those would be his good points).
As with you, I was more concerned about the bad points.


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## nirvana

Pluto2, I agree with your general idea. I don't tell her "you are intelligent BUT..." when I give her compliments. I am just saying so in posts so that people get a better picture. 

I am beginning to think that there will never be any improvement. All I can do, like some poster earlier said, deal with it and make peace and not have any expectations. I will need to curb my temper and not give in to her baiting like on Saturday. Maybe this is marriage.


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## Fozzy

Counseling is a good idea, but you NEED to go into it open to the possibility that it's not all your wife's fault that you're there. I'm not saying it's exclusively your fault either, but you need to keep the mirror handy to look at yourself too.

If you're going in to counseling hoping that the counselor will just agree with you and whip your wife into shape--I fear you're going to be disappointed.


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## nirvana

Fozzy said:


> Counseling is a good idea, but you NEED to go into it open to the possibility that it's not all your wife's fault that you're there. I'm not saying it's exclusively your fault either, but you need to keep the mirror handy to look at yourself too.
> 
> If you're going in to counseling hoping that the counselor will just agree with you and whip your wife into shape--I fear you're going to be disappointed.


I agree. I have no problems with this at all. I am not saying that it is all her fault. Maybe she needs more flowers, gifts that kind of thing. I will know that. At this point, the way she treats me, I don;t feel like getting her anything. I think the counselor will tell us that we need to focus on us, and not just the kids. We need to do things together, just the 2 of us.


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## Pluto2

Is she opposed to getting a baby-sitter for a "date night"?


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> I am not among those guys who look down upon their wives. But I am also not henpecked or those who get kicked around. That is the problem here. I have encouraged her all through to get into a productive career that she wanted to have. Done all I could.
> 
> I don't want a divorce. Our poor kids will suffer the most. If she loves her kids so much, can't she see this?


What does she say when you ask her this?


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## nirvana

Pluto2 said:


> Is she opposed to getting a baby-sitter for a "date night"?


Generally our Indian friends either not have date nights, or drop the kids off at some friends place as opposed to hiring a baby-sitter. Last year, her parents were visiting, so I took her downtown for a night in a hotel for our anniversary. Took her shopping, walked around town, it was very nice. She can be charming when the kids aren't around. I hope I don't begin hating my own innocent kids some day.

My feeling is she feels that she isn't getting the "womanly" attention she wants. She has mentioned flowers at times. Not that I didn't get the hint, but she had picked a fight with me on some silly issue so I was in no mood. And gifts. No one gave me gifts growing up, so I grew up conditioning myself to not want/expect them. In her case, it seems to be a big deal. So maybe she is resentful of that.

As a "to-do" on my side, I think I need to arrange some "dates" and do the wooing bit, flowers, gifts etc.

She also thinks I am too money minded. I am not miserly, but I watch our finances and spend on things we want. I don't waste it as it is hard to come by. I want us to have enough for a good retirement. When I tell her about some financial goal we hit, she goes "what use is it if you don't spend it". Maybe she is hinting that I buy her some gifts.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> What does she say when you ask her this?


You mean divorce? We have not seriously talked about divorce. Both of us are secretly hoping that this blows over. Neither really wants divorce. For Indian folks of my age (40), it is a big thing and not looked upon lightly. Neither of us wants to spend our old age alone.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> My feeling is she feels that she isn't getting the "womanly" attention she wants. She has mentioned flowers at times. Not that I didn't get the hint, but she had picked a fight with me on some *silly issue *so* I* was in no mood.


Sigh. Could SOMEONE please get of the right fight train? One of the two of you need to do it.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> You mean divorce? We have not seriously talked about divorce. Both of us are secretly hoping that this blows over. Neither really wants divorce. For Indian folks of my age (40), it is a big thing and not looked upon lightly. Neither of us wants to spend our old age alone.


It won't "blow over". Either one of you steps up and changes the dynamic or the dynamic will stay the same.

[Edit] Incidentally since you never discussed it, that might be why she "doesn't see that".


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## nirvana

Lila said:


> You said that your wife told you she wanted you to become a more active parent to your children. She's told you what she wants from you. Not flowers or gifts, but to become a more active parent. From this and your other threads, it really sounds like you are fighting this tooth and nail.
> 
> In your OP, you asked if there were men who had lost their wives after the kids came around. My experience is completely different from yours. My husband is far from perfect but the one thing that I can't complain about is his involvement with the raising of our family. He's always been a present dad.
> 
> If that makes him a henpecked husband then so be it but the fact that he's an awesome father makes me happy......and when I'm happy I get horny......and when I'm horny he's happy. See how that works?


Hmm.
She has actually said it a few times very clearly "if you spend time with the kids, you will make me very happy and I will make you happy". 

This does not come naturally to me because my dad was not the type who spent a whole lot of time with me. I have to make the effort, it could be a bit forced.

I do take the kids out to soccer, tennis, basketball all the time though. I just don't sit down and play board games. I take care of their math and my wife takes care of reading for the kids. They are doing well in school. 

My pet peeve is when she sees a friend's husband doing something with the kids, she gets on my case right away "Vijay is playing tennis with Kumar, why don't you too?". I dislike this copycat attitude. Then "all dads are doing this". That is what really bugs me and makes me not want to do what she wants.

She doesn't realize that men have egos. Her dad is the wimpy unethical type (except with his wife), so maybe she has grown up around this.


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> It won't "blow over". Either one of you steps up and changes the dynamic or the dynamic will stay the same.


Now if I call truce, won't it put her in a higher power dynamic? She will know that she can do whatever she wants and I will beg for peace in a day or two.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Now if I call truce, won't it put her in a higher power dynamic? She will know that she can do whatever she wants and I will beg for peace in a day or two.


I am not sure what you mean by "call a truce". I am not sure about power dynamic. Do you want a happy marriage or to win a war? If the former, you have a 2 pronged approach:

1. Do what you CAN do to make her happy. When a challenge to doing something is present, don't go into auto No mode. TALK to her. It looks something like, you want me to spend more time with the kids. I have been spending that time on earning and investing money. If I don't do that, we will have to cut the budget in some areas. Do you have any ideas on where to cut the budget? Or do you just want me to go ahead and do that? (If the latter, start cutting the kids' activities that interfere with family time, her clothing and handbag budget...) Then you can say in full honesty, but I did what you wanted. Oh you want to revisit that now? Ok we can talk about it.

Flowers? Dude just get the frickin' flowers. Not the DAY she complains. But a day or two later. No grudge, no grump. Just hey I guess you like flowers. I love you.

2. Set effective limits on what you CAN'T. For example, on the control and rule bs, simply tell her, no you can't rule me. If that is what you want from a husband, tough ****, I am not going to do that.


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## kristin2349

Nirvana:

Some of these things that are causing you so much unhappiness are relatively easy things to try to correct. 

Take the example of spending more time with your children. I know you work very hard and your leisure time is limited. But you cite her mentioning other fathers in your social circle spending time with their children as her trying to "keep up". Have you considered she is thinking of it from the perspective of your children? Perhaps she feels your children see their friends fathers being more interested and involved in their lives, and she feels you and your children are missing out. 

Many of her criticisms are really requests for more quality family time together. There are far worse things she could be asking for. As I said before you built a great solid foundation for your family. But a foundation is only the base. Work with your wife to make sure your home life is happy and satisfying for both of you. You should be partners not adversaries.

Again, I think that you should look into finding an Indian counselor. It will probably do you both a world of good. You might even find someone who can get your wife to see your perspective in a way that gets through to her. The way you communicate your wishes and desires to her, and her to you, are not being heard. 

Spending the time and money on marriage counseling is far better than spending far more in divorce court. I don't think you want that at all. In my observation from reading your many posts, you seem to be a black and white thinker. A good counselor will help you find the areas where grey might be the better option.


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## nirvana

kristin2349 said:


> Nirvana:
> 
> Some of these things that are causing you so much unhappiness are relatively easy things to try to correct.
> 
> Take the example of spending more time with your children. I know you work very hard and your leisure time is limited. But you cite her mentioning other fathers in your social circle spending time with their children as her trying to "keep up". Have you considered she is thinking of it from the perspective of your children? Perhaps she feels your children see their friends fathers being more interested and involved in their lives, and she feels you and your children are missing out.


This could very well be the case. But her way of asking is very offensive to me. It smacks of manipulation. "Look, he is better than you" doesn't make me feel good about myself. This, when I know that I am better than him in many other ways that my wife will pretend does not exist. 

I am not claiming that I am among the best at spending time with the kids. Not at all. But I am not the worst either. Many dads here take the kids out for some sport one time and post on Facebook and make it seem that they do it every day. This is especially the case with this toxic couple we know (whose house mortgage is underwater). It is simple to get me to do things. Just be a woman and ask me nicely. If you try to be a man and try to bully me, you get a response that is reserved for another man. That is what I think has been happening. Nagging is so annoying, why do so many women do this? It isn't even effective.



> Many of her criticisms are really requests for more quality family time together. There are far worse things she could be asking for. As I said before you built a great solid foundation for your family. But a foundation is only the base. Work with your wife to make sure your home life is happy and satisfying for both of you. You should be partners not adversaries.


I wish she said even 10% of what you just said. From what she says, I feel that I am a totally useless bum who is a failure in life. 
I'll ask her pointblank what she wants me to do. And write it down. She has a habit of changing goalposts, so she won't be able to do that. She will say do these 5 things. I do it, and then she will say what about the 6th one? Then everything will be about my failure to do task number 6. That is the manipulation part.



> Again, I think that you should look into finding an Indian counselor. It will probably do you both a world of good. You might even find someone who can get your wife to see your perspective in a way that gets through to her. The way you communicate your wishes and desires to her, and her to you, are not being heard.



My friend sent the name of a lady whose office is 4-5 miles away. Once things calm down a bit, I will suggest it. She is very private so I don't think she will like talking about this. She wants to keep up appearances even if the insides are rotten. A lot of Indian women are that way.



> Spending the time and money on marriage counseling is far better than spending far more in divorce court. I don't think you want that at all. In my observation from reading your many posts, you seem to be a black and white thinker. A good counselor will help you find the areas where grey might be the better option.


I agree. And yes, I do have a tendency to go to extremes. This or that. I am an engineer, so things are either a 1 or a 0.

She's at work right now. I cannot focus on my work and am here discussing this. I am sure she is in a similar state. When things calm down, I will ask her to make a list on what I should do to make her happy. I usually do well if there is a to-do list rather than her assuming that I will read her mind. I also want to make sure we cut off contact with this toxic couple. They have been the source of so many problems. The husband lays the praise on thick about his wife when he knows other ladies are around. And she does the same and gloats about his job and how everyone praises him at work. This gets all the other ladies jealous and think that their husbands are no good.


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## kristin2349

Getting the name of a marriage counselor is a great first step Nirvana, great job on that! Be the leader of your family and make the appointment and tell your wife this is important for both of you.

You spending the night in the guest bedroom is not something you want to repeat. You are obviously quite bothered by the state of things. Instead of letting them become "rotten on the inside" take steps to improve the situation. At least you will be able to look at yourself in the mirror and know you did everything possible to make things better before throwing in the towel. And I think you will be pleasantly surprised if you find a good counselor and give it an honest effort.

I hope you make an appointment soon. You already have so much, if you fix these issues your life would be the envy of many people. But more important than what your life looks like (right now it looks quite perfect to most people) is what it feels like...You know it could be better. The longer you wait to fix it the harder change will be.


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## EnjoliWoman

I think marriage counseling would do you both a lot of good. Some key points I notice:

She grew up a bit of a princess with a father who was less than ethical. She is very interested in how she appears to her peers. These two things tell me that she is used to being the center of attention, used to receiving gifts and admiration. Perhaps her father's less than ethical behavior didn't matter to her as long as she got what she wanted. Or maybe now she is enjoying having a life untainted by shame and feels the need to show off due to low self esteem. Did her peers know of her father? Did she get teased as a child about her Dad? She may be trying to one-up based on her past.

Also if her father doted on her, that was her role model. She sees that men should dote on their kids whether she differentiates boy children from girl children.

You grew up with a rather focused, uninvolved father. You appreciate his modeling frugal ways and good work ethic. Did you ever miss him? Did you ever want him to be there for you to just listen or play ball or chess with you?

You are modeling for your children. You are showing them what marriage should be and what parents should be. You are secure. I get it that you grew up with less and want financial security but you have it now. Dial it back a little. Set aside some time every week for the kids. I can tell you there is nothing sexier than a man who tenderly plays dress up or tea party with his girl, or a man who is tossing the ball or seen tousling his boy's hair and generally paling around.

I think your wife is being unreasonable when she compares herself the kids OR you to someone else. I think you are being unreasonable putting all of the focus on earning money. What kind of relationship do you want with your kids? Do you want to hear from them after they are grown? If you aren't close to them, they won't think about you much.

So buy some flowers. Tell your wife that you don't like being compared to others any more than she would like to hear "Ramu's wife has sex with him 5 times a week. Why can't you be like his wife?" Maybe you should say something like that back to her next time she asks you why you can't be like someone else. Follow it up with "you are not [her] and I am not [him], that's why".


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## nirvana

EnjoliWoman said:


> I think marriage counseling would do you both a lot of good. Some key points I notice:
> 
> She grew up a bit of a princess with a father who was less than ethical. She is very interested in how she appears to her peers. These two things tell me that she is used to being the center of attention, used to receiving gifts and admiration. Perhaps her father's less than ethical behavior didn't matter to her as long as she got what she wanted. Or maybe now she is enjoying having a life untainted by shame and feels the need to show off due to low self esteem. Did her peers know of her father? Did she get teased as a child about her Dad? She may be trying to one-up based on her past.


Yes, you are correct, she did grow up as a princess. She used to tell me that she was her dad's favorite. Her dad would also tell me how he will do "anything" for his daughters. She was so in love with Daddy that she did not see any of his flaws. I, as an outsider saw all of that. He would send us stuff from India using company shipping so he wouldn't have to pay. Trying to get around property laws (he got into trouble for that). Trying to get us to do what amounted to some money laundering because got into trouble himself for trying to skirt some laws and got defrauded and was going to lose his house. Then he would promise things and change the rules as and when it suited him. I just don't trust him. Eventually, my wife's eyes opened and she saw all of it. Now she knows his true nature, and I think is very sad about it because it is her dad after all. Her father keeps posting on FB about high morals all the time. I think that her castle has come crashing down and now she may be distraught and trying to self-destruct. He has a BIG problem of wanting to be popular and loved by outsiders. He will go to any length to make this happen. I am afraid this has rubbed off on his daughter as well. And he's a hypocrite because he is praying all the time.

No one else knows, none of her peers, she did not get teased about dad.
My wife does have low self esteem. Class topper in middle school but had a big dip later on and ended up doing a useless undergrad degree that has no job prospects. In contrast, her not so bright sister did an engineering degree and caused her a lot of trouble. I sent her to grad school here (she got 4.0 GPA) and helped her find a career by sending her to training classes last April. Her self esteem has gone up, but it looks like she is now showing me the finger by saying "I will show you how good I am!". She should tell her dad that because he is the one who had ZERO confidence in her where as I have put down about $30,000 on her education.

You are right, maybe the missing piece is the gifts among others. I don't do that enough, I am quite bad at that actually. Gifts don't mean anything to me.



> Also if her father doted on her, that was her role model. She sees that men should dote on their kids whether she differentiates boy children from girl children.


She needs to understand that not everyone is like her dad. I cannot expect her to be like my mom either.



> You grew up with a rather focused, uninvolved father. You appreciate his modeling frugal ways and good work ethic. Did you ever miss him? Did you ever want him to be there for you to just listen or play ball or chess with you?
> 
> You are modeling for your children. You are showing them what marriage should be and what parents should be. You are secure. I get it that you grew up with less and want financial security but you have it now. Dial it back a little. Set aside some time every week for the kids. I can tell you there is nothing sexier than a man who tenderly plays dress up or tea party with his girl, or a man who is tossing the ball or seen tousling his boy's hair and generally paling around.
> 
> I think your wife is being unreasonable when she compares herself the kids OR you to someone else. I think you are being unreasonable putting all of the focus on earning money. What kind of relationship do you want with your kids? Do you want to hear from them after they are grown? If you aren't close to them, they won't think about you much.
> 
> So buy some flowers. Tell your wife that you don't like being compared to others any more than she would like to hear "Ramu's wife has sex with him 5 times a week. Why can't you be like his wife?" Maybe you should say something like that back to her next time she asks you why you can't be like someone else. Follow it up with "you are not [her] and I am not [him], that's why".



I don't think I did because I thought that was normal. It's only later that I realized that it wasn't.
I'll ask her to make a list of what she wants me to do. Now I know that sounds forced, but it is a start.


----------



## lifeisbetterthanalternat

nirvana, 

What is hard to decipher from only these posts is whether your wife is truly trying to control or "hen peck" you or if you perhaps are overly resistant to her requests for things. 

You state that your father did set an example for you in regarding playing with you (or something to that effect). To that I would tell you to get over it. Many men do things for their wives and vice-versa that they would not be inclined to do or are even unpleasant. We do these things in the spirit of compromise. What if you just took more of an integral role with your children and see how it goes.


----------



## nirvana

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> nirvana,
> 
> What is hard to decipher from only these posts is whether your wife is truly trying to control or "hen peck" you or if you perhaps are overly resistant to her requests for things.
> 
> You state that your father did set an example for you in regarding playing with you (or something to that effect). To that I would tell you to get over it. Many men do things for their wives and vice-versa that they would not be inclined to do or are even unpleasant. We do these things in the spirit of compromise. What if you just took more of an integral role with your children and see how it goes.


Yes, I can do it in the spirit of compromise. But from past experience, she will only want more and more and more and nag and complain all the time. There won't even be any appreciation.

But I will try it out again.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Yes, I can do it in the spirit of compromise. But from past experience, she will only want more and more and more and nag and complain all the time. There won't even be any appreciation.
> 
> But I will try it out again.


Compromise AND effective limit setting. No beating around the bushes.


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## Fozzy

I'm going to buck the trend here.

Don't do it from a spirit of compromise. Do it from a spirit of giving.

The drive behind compromise is ultimately just trying to get some of what you want, even if you can't get everything you want.

The drive behind giving (vs compromise) is to show your love for a person by making sure they get what they want because you want them to be happy. A side effect of this is that it often inspires a person to do the same for you.

Coming at it from compromise can make things work--but it will never be as happy as both people giving to each other.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Fozzy said:


> I'm going to buck the trend here.
> 
> Don't do it from a spirit of compromise. Do it from a spirit of giving.


Yes that I agree with. Not give to get. Just give.


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## Pluto2

Fozzy said:


> I'm going to buck the trend here.
> 
> Don't do it from a spirit of compromise. Do it from a spirit of giving.
> 
> The drive behind compromise is ultimately just trying to get some of what you want, even if you can't get everything you want.
> 
> The drive behind giving (vs compromise) is to show your love for a person by making sure they get what they want because you want them to be happy. A side effect of this is that it often inspires a person to do the same for you.
> 
> Coming at it from compromise can make things work--but it will never be as happy as both people giving to each other.


Aw Fozzy, that's really beautiful. I see you as a true romantic.


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## Thor

nirvana said:


> She also thinks I am too money minded. I am not miserly, but I watch our finances and spend on things we want. I don't waste it as it is hard to come by. I want us to have enough for a good retirement. When I tell her about some financial goal we hit, she goes "what use is it if you don't spend it". Maybe she is hinting that I buy her some gifts.


I suggest you bring her in on the financial planning. Attend Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. It is a 7 week (?) class you can take at your church or do it yourself at home, and possibly offered by other non-religious groups in your area. He provides a comprehensive financial plan which you two develop together. You will figure out your long term plans such as retirement, college savings for you kids, etc. You generate a plan to get rid of all your debt. You build a budget which accomplishes what you both want, including some "fun" money.

This will reduce one area of friction in your marriage.


----------



## nirvana

Thor said:


> I suggest you bring her in on the financial planning. Attend Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University. It is a 7 week (?) class you can take at your church or do it yourself at home, and possibly offered by other non-religious groups in your area. He provides a comprehensive financial plan which you two develop together. You will figure out your long term plans such as retirement, college savings for you kids, etc. You generate a plan to get rid of all your debt. You build a budget which accomplishes what you both want, including some "fun" money.
> 
> This will reduce one area of friction in your marriage.


That's the thing. I have no serious debt. I mean, I have the house mortgage (paid off 53%), and the car loan that I just got in Dec. I can easily pay off the entire car loan if I wanted to but it makes more sense to invest the money since the interest is very low.

I don't really need a plan since we are quite comfortable with everything under control. She has no interest in learning about boring numbers, so I do it all. I have an MBA in finance, so I can make all these plans myself. 

The reason why we are in good shape is because I am careful about spending. I can loosen my grip and I have. I can do it a little bit more to make her happy.


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## meson

nirvana said:


> Hmm.
> She has actually said it a few times very clearly "if you spend time with the kids, you will make me very happy and I will make you happy".
> 
> *This does not come naturally to me because my dad was not the type who spent a whole lot of time with me. *I have to make the effort, it could be a bit forced.
> 
> I do take the kids out to soccer, tennis, basketball all the time though. I just don't sit down and play board games. I take care of their math and my wife takes care of reading for the kids. They are doing well in school.
> 
> My pet peeve is when she sees a friend's husband doing something with the kids, she gets on my case right away "Vijay is playing tennis with Kumar, why don't you too?". I dislike this copycat attitude. Then "all dads are doing this". That is what really bugs me and makes me not want to do what she wants.
> 
> She doesn't realize that men have egos. Her dad is the wimpy unethical type (except with his wife), so maybe she has grown up around this.


Bingo! I had to learn this as well. My role model was also a dad that didn't connect with kids because his dad didn't. I decided to buck the trend. I started with my daughter and engaged her in my hobby which she grew to enjoy. 

I also saw that my wife was into Scouting so I decided to become involved. My experience with Scouting led me to dislike significant aspects of it but I went in with the focus on developing a relationship with my boys. I started slowly and eventually became the Scoutmaster of their troop.

Not only did my relationship with my kids improve, I had a new activity to share with my wife. My connection with the kids as a father as she knew it was what she needed and when I finally focused on giving that to her our whole relationship changed for the better.

Don't copy other dads. Just find something that you and your kids would enjoy doing.


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## Thor

nirvana said:


> That's the thing. I have no serious debt. I mean, I have the house mortgage (paid off 53%), and the car loan that I just got in Dec. I can easily pay off the entire car loan if I wanted to but it makes more sense to invest the money since the interest is very low.
> 
> I don't really need a plan since we are quite comfortable with everything under control. She has no interest in learning about boring numbers, so I do it all. I have an MBA in finance, so I can make all these plans myself.
> 
> The reason why we are in good shape is because I am careful about spending. I can loosen my grip and I have. I can do it a little bit more to make her happy.


Yet your wife is unhappy with the financial plan you do have. She wants things to be somewhat different. You didn't say specifically what she wanted you to spend more on, but she obviously feels you are too tight. Even if she remains largely uninvolved in the finances, I think she needs to feel she has some say in things. Maybe she needs a little play money for herself, maybe she wants you to spend more on fun for the family or gifts for her.

You could read "5 Love Languages" with her. If she comes out high on Gifts, that is your clue to spend a bit on gifts. As an engineer it may seem illogical, but to her it may mean a great deal to receive gifts.

If you have a specific budget, not just a policy of not spending, she will know there is a certain amount of money allocated to whatever it is she wants to spend more money on. If the first issue with going out to dinner is the cost, or if you're only going to the movies during discount matinee showings, she may feel too restricted. Knowing you or she can "blow" some money as part of the plan could be a big thing for her.


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## Thor

BTW, pay off your car. Investments can and do go down, but the debt doesn't go away by itself. If you have plenty of money, paying it off is no big deal. If you are playing the spread between the loan interest rate and your expected investment returns, are you including the tax costs of investment income and the risk of investment loss? The marginal difference you will pocket is minimal, but the risk is not.

I've had stocks lose 90% overnight with a single report of accounting irregularities. The market lost 40% rapidly in the last meltdown. The tech-wreck of 2000 was disasterous for those (me) in that sector.


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## richardsharpe

Dear nirvana
Flowers, small gifts etc are easy and will make her happy. Being romantic is nice. 

I get my wife flowers frequently - its such an easy way to make her smile.....





nirvana said:


> snip
> 
> My feeling is she feels that she isn't getting the "womanly" attention she wants. She has mentioned flowers at times. Not that I didn't get the hint, but she had picked a fight with me on some silly issue so I was in no mood. And gifts. No one gave me gifts growing up, so I grew up conditioning myself to not want/expect them. In her case, it seems to be a big deal. So maybe she is resentful of that.
> snip


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## nirvana

OK, I will reply to the other posts, but wanted to put in a quick update.

I got some flowers and got some chocolates on the way home. She was coming back from picking up the kids. As she came in, I hugged her tightly. She did not resist. After a few minutes, I gave her the roses and the chocolates. She was curious why I had "changed". 

Then we got to talking a bit and I asked her what I needed to do to make her happy. She said what she usually does, but I want to dig deeper tomorrow.

She made some awesome masala dosas last night and said she was feeling bad that I didn't eat.

The crisis is averted, but we will need to work on it.


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## nirvana

meson said:


> Bingo! I had to learn this as well. My role model was also a dad that didn't connect with kids because his dad didn't. I decided to buck the trend. I started with my daughter and engaged her in my hobby which she grew to enjoy.
> 
> I also saw that my wife was into Scouting so I decided to become involved. My experience with Scouting led me to dislike significant aspects of it but I went in with the focus on developing a relationship with my boys. I started slowly and eventually became the Scoutmaster of their troop.
> 
> Not only did my relationship with my kids improve, I had a new activity to share with my wife. My connection with the kids as a father as she knew it was what she needed and when I finally focused on giving that to her our whole relationship changed for the better.
> 
> Don't copy other dads. Just find something that you and your kids would enjoy doing.


Good points. Now that things are calm again, I will sit her down on the weekend and talk to her about what she would like for me to do to make her happy. It is better than me guessing and she bringing up the same "you don't understand me" thing.

Maybe tennis with my son on the weekend and some game with my daughter will also help.


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## nirvana

Thor said:


> BTW, pay off your car. Investments can and do go down, but the debt doesn't go away by itself. If you have plenty of money, paying it off is no big deal. If you are playing the spread between the loan interest rate and your expected investment returns, are you including the tax costs of investment income and the risk of investment loss? The marginal difference you will pocket is minimal, but the risk is not.
> 
> I've had stocks lose 90% overnight with a single report of accounting irregularities. The market lost 40% rapidly in the last meltdown. The tech-wreck of 2000 was disasterous for those (me) in that sector.


Whenever I have some spare cash like 5k or 10k, I just would put it towards Principal of the house. That's why I have a low payment and the best part is that it feels good that my mortgage outstanding amount is lower. I pay 2.5% on the house and 1.74% on the car. So I have been paying off the house earlier, but maybe it is a good idea to pay off the car so I just have 1 thing to deal with. More of a mental thing.

My investments are in an IRA so I cannot take it out. I have some in a taxable account. The money I use for paying off is whenever the checking account balance goes over a certain limit, I use it towards the house.

I think you are right, I should pay off the car first. The home mortgage interest is deductable and not the car's, so it;s more or less the same thing but I'll have only 1 thing to deal with.


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## nirvana

richardsharpe said:


> Dear nirvana
> Flowers, small gifts etc are easy and will make her happy. Being romantic is nice.
> 
> I get my wife flowers frequently - its such an easy way to make her smile.....


Did that yesterday and she melted, rather than have a meltdown.


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## nirvana

Thor said:


> Yet your wife is unhappy with the financial plan you do have. She wants things to be somewhat different. You didn't say specifically what she wanted you to spend more on, but she obviously feels you are too tight. Even if she remains largely uninvolved in the finances, I think she needs to feel she has some say in things. Maybe she needs a little play money for herself, maybe she wants you to spend more on fun for the family or gifts for her.
> 
> You could read "5 Love Languages" with her. If she comes out high on Gifts, that is your clue to spend a bit on gifts. As an engineer it may seem illogical, but to her it may mean a great deal to receive gifts.
> 
> If you have a specific budget, not just a policy of not spending, she will know there is a certain amount of money allocated to whatever it is she wants to spend more money on. If the first issue with going out to dinner is the cost, or if you're only going to the movies during discount matinee showings, she may feel too restricted. Knowing you or she can "blow" some money as part of the plan could be a big thing for her.


She has a credit card so she can buy whatever she wants. She is responsible, and buys girly stuff like clothes, shoes, makeup and I have no problem with it because she looks so good and it is within control.

The thing is she wants *me *to buy her gifts. It is not the same for a woman if she went and bought them herself. I, as a guy, don't care as long as I get something. But apparently, it matters for women so she can tell her friends that her husband bought her X and Y. I will do more of that in the future.

I also want to do a dinner and movie date with her. She will resist and want to get the kids along, but I will have to insist. I know she will enjoy it.

I have 5 Love Languages in my iPad, have read 20 pages but need to do that.


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## Pluto2

Its often not the gift itself, that matters, its more of the gesture. She now knows that you were thinking of something she might like and took the time and effort to get it for her. She feels appreciated.


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## EllisRedding

nirvana said:


> The thing is she wants *me *to buy her gifts. It is not the same for a woman if she went and bought them herself. I, as a guy, don't care as long as I get something. But apparently, it matters for women so she can tell her friends that her husband bought her X and Y. I will do more of that in the future.


Honestly that stinks lol. My wife and I are to the point where we don't bother exchanging gifts anymore, too much stress for no good reason on each of our parts trying to figure out what to get the other. If I want something I buy it. If my wife wants something she buys it (with my money but she is a SAHM). 

She did just buy a fridge and dishwasher today. She might think in part I was ok with the purchase b/c things have been real good and an incentive for her to keep things going in the bedroom (I am ok with her thinking that, but I just really wanted a new fridge lol)


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## Pluto2

Sorry, but I don't think a new kitchen appliance will yield any beneficial results in the bedroom. Its not the 1950s


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## EllisRedding

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry, but I don't think a new kitchen appliance will yield any beneficial results in the bedroom. Its not the 1950s


If directed at me you missed the point of my post which was in jest ...


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## meson

nirvana said:


> Good points. Now that things are calm again, I will sit her down on the weekend and talk to her about what she would like for me to do to make her happy. It is better than me guessing and she bringing up the same "you don't understand me" thing.
> 
> Maybe tennis with my son on the weekend and some game with my daughter will also help.


I would be careful here. It looks like you are still grasping from her point of view. If it were me I would come up with a long term plan to connect with the kids and her. Then you can sit down and make plans for regularly doing x with kid1 and y with kid2. What would be good days/times to do this with your schedule. It shows a commitment where going out for a single weekend of tennis doesn't.


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## nirvana

meson said:


> I would be careful here. It looks like you are still grasping from her point of view. If it were me I would come up with a long term plan to connect with the kids and her. Then you can sit down and make plans for regularly doing x with kid1 and y with kid2. What would be good days/times to do this with your schedule. It shows a commitment where going out for a single weekend of tennis doesn't.


Yes, I agree... have to be careful and not let her thing she can walk all over me now. 
It's easy to get me to do things, just be nice and loving. Being a b!tch never works because I respond badly to that. She has had success getting me to do things by asking nicely, but still sometimes lapses into the b!tch mode.


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## Jeffyboy

One of the worst possibilities of marriage. It may help to convince her that putting the husband first above the kids is actually better for them. There are articles based on this. It shows the kid what a strong marriage looks like.


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## SurpriseMyself

nirvana said:


> Hmm.
> She has actually said it a few times very clearly "if you spend time with the kids, you will make me very happy and I will make you happy".
> 
> This does not come naturally to me because my dad was not the type who spent a whole lot of time with me. I have to make the effort, it could be a bit forced.
> 
> I do take the kids out to soccer, tennis, basketball all the time though. I just don't sit down and play board games. I take care of their math and my wife takes care of reading for the kids. They are doing well in school.
> 
> My pet peeve is when she sees a friend's husband doing something with the kids, she gets on my case right away "Vijay is playing tennis with Kumar, why don't you too?". I dislike this copycat attitude. Then "all dads are doing this". That is what really bugs me and makes me not want to do what she wants.
> 
> She doesn't realize that men have egos. Her dad is the wimpy unethical type (except with his wife), so maybe she has grown up around this.


And here is your dilemma, so very clearly laid out in your own words.

You were raised in a traditional family where children, mothers, and fathers each had their place. The father earns the money. The wife stays home and should be thankful and grateful by paying attention to the man who provides for her. The children are her responsibility, but he comes first.

But that was the old generation. She doesn't want that. She wants a FAMILY in the fullest sense of the word. Mother AND father coming together to enjoy their children and their lives as a unit. A new kind of family that loves each other and don't simply follow the patterns of the people who raised them. 

She wants to look across that soccer field and see you interacting and bonding with your son. She wants to see you dancing with your daughter. You do that and she will feel what you want her to feel, which is that she married a wonderful man who is sharing himself and being a true father.

Your trouble is that you are closed off. You say playing games with your kids feels forced. I suspect you don't feel comfortable relaxing and being you. I suspect you are up tight and unsure of yourself deep down. So you find work easier than relating to your little humans. She sees that and so do your children.

This is on you to change or tell her you won't. It's that simple. Men often think it's the fat wallet and fancy car that will get a woman's attention. But let me tell you - there is nothing sexier than a man who loves and spends real time with his kids. And not because she wants you to or because it's what society expects today. If your can't find it in yourself to truly be that father, then tell her. Don't go through the motions. It will make both of you resentful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana

SurpriseMyself, you talk like you know me very well, but you don't. It's only a guess on your part. And it is wrong for most part.

You only talk about what I have to do for my wife. You never talk about what she should also do in return. Marriage is a 2 way street. My experience is that the more I do, the more I am expected to do, so the goal post is always moving. After a while, people just give up.

I laughed at the last paragraph. I am sure many men will agree. If the man has no money or car or house, he will not even get a woman. Don't tell me that a woman does not consider any of that, sounds romantic, but women want to make sure that things will be good for themselves and their future children. A romantic bum won't be able to provide that. How many women want to tie their futures to a romantic bum with all the time in the world? Not too many. It's all evolution. To provide all of that costs time and effort. That is a form of love as well, many women don't even see that. That is what I call being ungrateful.

Many women today want to have EVERYTHING. But give nothing in return.


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## SurpriseMyself

nirvana said:


> SurpriseMyself, you talk like you know me very well, but you don't. It's only a guess on your part. And it is wrong for most part.
> 
> You only talk about what I have to do for my wife. You never talk about what she should also do in return. Marriage is a 2 way street. My experience is that the more I do, the more I am expected to do, so the goal post is always moving. After a while, people just give up.
> 
> I laughed at the last paragraph. I am sure many men will agree. If the man has no money or car or house, he will not even get a woman. Don't tell me that a woman does not consider any of that, sounds romantic, but women want to make sure that things will be good for themselves and their future children. A romantic bum won't be able to provide that. How many women want to tie their futures to a romantic bum with all the time in the world? Not too many. It's all evolution. To provide all of that costs time and effort. That is a form of love as well, many women don't even see that. That is what I call being ungrateful.
> 
> Many women today want to have EVERYTHING. But give nothing in return.


Your wife gives all to your children. You give all to your work. You see how you are the same? Taking your child to soccer and her working won't change the dynamic between you. If she is ok with how things are and you aren't, you must either accept or change. You can't change her. And it sounds like you are ungrateful toward her just as she is to you. She is putting so much into your kids, but to you that is a problem. It's like the man who works long hours and hates to hear that his wife is upset at being ignored. You feel like you aren't #1 with her. Is she your #1, or is your work?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> SurpriseMyself, you talk like you know me very well, but you don't. It's only a guess on your part. And it is wrong for most part.
> 
> You only talk about what I have to do for my wife. You never talk about what she should also do in return.


Which, for my part, I would be... if she were here. What are you going to do with other people's opinion of what she "should" do? Go tell her, this is what a bunch of strangers on the internet say you "should" do. How well do you think that will work for you.


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## nirvana

SurpriseMyself said:


> Your wife gives all to your children. You give all to your work. You see how you are the same? Taking your child to soccer and her working won't change the dynamic between you. If she is ok with how things are and you aren't, you must either accept or change. You can't change her. And it sounds like you are ungrateful toward her just as she is to you. She is putting so much into your kids, but to you that is a problem. It's like the man who works long hours and hates to hear that his wife is upset at being ignored. You feel like you aren't #1 with her. Is she your #1, or is your work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Wow, so many erroneous assumptions, in just 1 post!


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## SurpriseMyself

nirvana said:


> Wow, so many erroneous assumptions, in just 1 post!


Then buy her gifts and spend time with your kids because it is what he wants. I don't understand the solution here. It's a tit for tat. But hey, if that works for you then go for it. Still, you have said you married a mental midget and that an affair seems justified based on how little attention you get from her. Buying her gifts to get her to pay attention to you seems like a short term band aid. You have real issues with your wife that you aren't addressing. You are no where near the heart of the matter. Whether I am off in my assessment or not, at least I'm going beyond flowers and chocolates. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jin

If this guy wanted advice he would have posted in another subforum. He just wants everyone to agree that his wife is a ***** and not good enough for him.


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## SurpriseMyself

jin said:


> If this guy wanted advice he would have posted in another subforum. He just wants everyone to agree that his wife is a ***** and not good enough for him.


He is far from any honest assessment of himself or his marriage, for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nirvana

Well, some of you seem angry about your own relationships and are projecting your difficulties onto me.

Some of you have given me great suggestions and I thank you for that. I have to change and so does she. We have to be more realistic in our expectations. I have some expectations that she cannot meet just like I cannot meet some of hers.

I don't see this thread being useful for me anymore. The good posters have had their say and the angry ones are left.

PS: My wife and I had a very nice Mothers Day. The kids made her cards and we went out for dinner. I made her breakfast and painted her finger and toe nails.  I also gave her a gift card for a professional manicure and pedicure. Exploring buying a bicycle for the two of us.


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## BookOfJob

nirvana said:


> ....My experience is that the more I do, the more I am expected to do, so the goal post is always moving. After a while, people just give up.....


Have you read MMSLP? NMMNG? The sticky in this forum (topmost thread in this forum)?

I am not angry, just thought that you should do some reading and try to understand more the dynamics of male-female interactions. Do you think you are keeping the balance of wooing her and spending time with the kids? If the dynamics is unbalanced, you need to communicate it to her.


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## aine

nirvana said:


> Well, some of you seem angry about your own relationships and are projecting your difficulties onto me.
> 
> Some of you have given me great suggestions and I thank you for that. I have to change and so does she. We have to be more realistic in our expectations. I have some expectations that she cannot meet just like I cannot meet some of hers.
> 
> I don't see this thread being useful for me anymore. The good posters have had their say and the angry ones are left.
> 
> PS: My wife and I had a very nice Mothers Day. The kids made her cards and we went out for dinner. I made her breakfast and painted her finger and toe nails.  I also gave her a gift card for a professional manicure and pedicure. Exploring buying a bicycle for the two of us.


I have read most of your comments and it appears this is a situation many men find themselves in because they are busy earning money and furthering their careers which they will tell you is all for the future of the family. In many cases that may be so, although sometimes it is also about ego. You do not 'acquire' a wife and family so that you can simply put them in a box and provide for them only, and you cannot use the excuse 'well my father never did it so there', if you want kids who want to come spend time with you with their own families when you grow old, I suggest you build a relationship with them now (regardless of your sex life with your wife).

They may come and spend time with you out of a sense of duty sure, but is that what you want? You should never use your kids and how you treat them as a bargaining chip with your wife for more intimacy, something is very wrong with that kind of reasoning.
Your wife doesn't sound nice (but then again we are only hearing one side of the story, you chose her so she mustn't be that bad!). There is a much better approach that simply saying I am not getting what i want, so i will engage in a stand off, sounds really stupid and short sighted. Perhaps, your wife on the other hand, thinks that all your care about is your work and have no time for her? That is why she throws herself into the kids full time and both of you dance around in circles, assuming that you are both right. Surprise her, with flowers, small gifts, romance her a bit.
For God's sake sit down and talk about it, send the kids off to a friends for an afternoon and take her for a nice meal and just tell her how you feel. When a woman is told that her husband misses her and the intimacy of the marriage bed, she will listen. But you sound like a guy who thinks it is his right and therefore requires no work. Do some reading, people on this site can advise you of the appropriate books.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Well, some of you seem angry about your own relationships and are projecting your difficulties onto me.
> 
> Some of you have given me great suggestions and I thank you for that. I have to change and so does she. We have to be more realistic in our expectations. I have some expectations that she cannot meet just like I cannot meet some of hers.
> 
> I don't see this thread being useful for me anymore. The good posters have had their say and the angry ones are left.
> 
> PS: My wife and I had a very nice Mothers Day. The kids made her cards and we went out for dinner. I made her breakfast and painted her finger and toe nails.  I also gave her a gift card for a professional manicure and pedicure. Exploring buying a bicycle for the two of us.


I am sorry you feel attacked. You are trying to do what you can for your marriage and that is laudable.

The thing that sticks in my mind is that she seems to have a bad case of keeping up with the Joneses. It is too bad that she likely cannot see that the Joneses FIB and sugar coat their happy horse ****. Too bad she cannot learn that art, if she cares about the Joneses. Better yet, not caring would be wonderful for both of your lives.

If acts of service was her love language, which it may well be a lesser one, then you could provide while still setting effective boundaries. I fear your boundaries might upset the apple cart to an uncomfortable degree before any decent change might be realized. You have to ask yourself, is it worth upsetting said cart to see something better on the other side? Especially when there are no guarantees. Only you can answer that.


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## brownmale

Why flame-bait OP? Just because he's saying something that is not pleasant to hear?

It's obvious that if your wife treats you badly, you're not going to be best friends with her relatives.... but that is another point, from another thread. I get the feeling OP is being beaten unnecessarily with that here.



jin said:


> OP i read one of your earlier threads and you referred to your FIL as sleazy and made other remarks about MIL. I'm curious why you married your wife with so little respect for her parents?
> 
> What does your wife think about your low opinion of them?
> 
> I got the feeling you were just venting but now you are talking about leaving your wife. Doesn't seem to be the full story here.


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## brownmale

Right. You will have to pay for her faults. 

Your fault? You married her....



staarz21 said:


> No. It doesn't. Divorce seems justified.
> 
> You said earlier that your wife can have 100% time with the kids and you will be free to live your life. Are you planning on staying in your children's lives after the divorce? I might have read that wrong, I'm sorry.
> 
> Another question, if you don't mind because I haven't read your other threads, sorry!!! Have you told your wife you are working towards a divorce? How do you think she would react if you told her you are ready?


She'll probably regret. But then it's too late.


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## brownmale

lkjhgfdsa said:


> I seriously mean no disrespect but is there a chance he got wrapped up in work because you were too wrapped up in what you were doing?


That is exactly what happened with me. After each of my two kids, I got involved in major, creative projects. There was no wife left for me!


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry you feel attacked. You are trying to do what you can for your marriage and that is laudable.
> 
> The thing that sticks in my mind is that she seems to have a bad case of keeping up with the Joneses. It is too bad that she likely cannot see that the Joneses FIB and sugar coat their happy horse ****. Too bad she cannot learn that art, if she cares about the Joneses. Better yet, not caring would be wonderful for both of your lives.
> 
> If acts of service was her love language, which it may well be a lesser one, then you could provide while still setting effective boundaries. I fear your boundaries might upset the apple cart to an uncomfortable degree before any decent change might be realized. You have to ask yourself, is it worth upsetting said cart to see something better on the other side? Especially when there are no guarantees. Only you can answer that.


You are right, this characteristic is present in her father and sister as well. My wife has tempered down her expectations/wants to reasonable levels, but occasionally uses it to beat me on the head when she is mad at me for something ("XYZ's husband bought her ABC"). My options are to fall for this trap or not. She has a credit card and can buy whatever she wants and I never object. Yes, I can get her some more gifts and I do but can do more obviously. But I cannot and do not want to keep up with this toxic couple we know who's husband buys her a Michael Kors or LV handbag each month. Or a $5000 watch for V day. I don't want my wife to be that materialistic, I don't play that game. This husband isn't all that rich and he is selling out their future (IMO of course).

But in the coming weeks, I will try to see what she really wants and buy them for her myself.


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## nirvana

brownmale said:


> Right. You will have to pay for her faults.
> 
> Your fault? You married her....
> 
> 
> 
> She'll probably regret. But then it's too late.


We aren't divorcing, guys.
I said it, but I was in pain when I did. I have no plans to. Maybe counseling at most. I am 40+ and she is getting there. It isn't easy for Indian people just to go to a bar and find someone here in the US. We will most likely be alone for the rest of our lives. Not worth it. 

I probably have to reconcile with it that women never or rarely appreciate their men. Once I do that, then it will not matter to me. It's about expectation management. I have to do the right thing always.


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## nirvana

brownmale said:


> Why flame-bait OP? Just because he's saying something that is not pleasant to hear?
> 
> It's obvious that if your wife treats you badly, you're not going to be best friends with her relatives.... but that is another point, from another thread. I get the feeling OP is being beaten unnecessarily with that here.


My FIL is an unethical person and I don't share his values. Sorry, but that is the way it is. We are civil to each other and have a beer together when we visit and joke and talk etc. But we are not best buddies. My MIL is a poor lady, oppressed by her husband and has no identity. I feel bad for her. She is intelligent, but not given opportunities.

brownmale, some men here just cannot take a balanced view. In their opinion, it is always the man's fault. Women never take this line of thinking, they blame the man too! Interesting, huh?


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## ocotillo

nirvana said:


> So my question is, did any of you experience the same of losing your wife after the kids arrived? Did you fix the situation, if so how?


Yes. There was a little switch in my wife's brain that had two positions and only two positions. One was, "Wife" and the other was, "Mother." 

Sex was only one casualty of that bifurcation. Her sense of humor, her love of the piano, her spontaneity and sense of adventure were others, so it's not like she didn't suffer too.

Right around the time the youngest was graduating from high school, the switch flipped back to, "Wife" and again, the change was sudden and the difference was literally night and day.

There are people who will tell you to spend more quality time with your wife, to shoulder a larger share of day to day childcare, to do more around the house, etc.. These things are important, but they will not fix the problem. The problem is a faulty mental template of motherhood that unfortunately, many of us learn as children. (When you stop and think about it, a lot of us have trouble imagining our parents as sexual beings.) In my wife's case, austerity and self-denial were big facets of what made a, "good" mother.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> You are right, this characteristic is present in her father and sister as well. My wife has tempered down her expectations/wants to reasonable levels, but occasionally uses it to beat me on the head when she is mad at me for something ("XYZ's husband bought her ABC"). My options are to fall for this trap or not. She has a credit card and can buy whatever she wants and I never object. Yes, I can get her some more gifts and I do but can do more obviously. But I cannot and do not want to keep up with this toxic couple we know who's husband buys her a Michael Kors or LV handbag each month. Or a $5000 watch for V day. I don't want my wife to be that materialistic, I don't play that game. This husband isn't all that rich and he is selling out their future (IMO of course).
> 
> But in the coming weeks, I will try to see what she really wants and buy them for her myself.


Have you taken the love language quiz? I would not spend useless money. I am sorry. $5,000 for a watch? That is absurd. That is not about love languages, and we may not even know that gifts are your love language, that is... something else, something not pretty.

You said you are Indian. Do you practice a specific religion that is consistent with your home culture? It might be helpful if someone else, like our equivalent of a pastor, smacked her (figuratively) upside the head.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> My FIL is an unethical person and I don't share his values. Sorry, but that is the way it is. We are civil to each other and have a beer together when we visit and joke and talk etc. But we are not best buddies. My MIL is a poor lady, oppressed by her husband and has no identity. I feel bad for her. She is intelligent, but not given opportunities.
> 
> brownmale, some men here just cannot take a balanced view. In their opinion, it is always the man's fault. Women never take this line of thinking, they blame the man too! Interesting, huh?


You sure as heck don't make it enjoyable to try to be helpful. What exactly would the point of telling HER what to be? She is not here. She is perfectly fine as long as you are buying her expensive crap. What would motivate her to come on here?


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> Have you taken the love language quiz? I would not spend useless money. I am sorry. $5,000 for a watch? That is absurd. That is not about love languages, and we may not even know that gifts are your love language, that is... something else, something not pretty.
> 
> You said you are Indian. Do you practice a specific religion that is consistent with your home culture? It might be helpful if someone else, like our equivalent of a pastor, smacked her (figuratively) upside the head.


No, I haven't, is there a link to it or is it Googleable?
I am Hindu. 
I must clarify that the $5000 watch woman is not my wife. My wife would never want something like that. In fact if I bought her a $5000 watch, *SHE *would smack me upside the head. I was referring to a friend couple who we have known for 10+ years. The husband is always showing off about himself and about what a great husband he is. He wants all the other ladies to praise him. He bought himself a $10,000 Rolex watch! The only problem is he isn't financially to the level where a $10k watch is nothing. He makes more or less as much as I do, and his wife does not work in a salaried job.

But of course, that won't stop my wife from using this against me when she is mad at me!


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> You sure as heck don't make it enjoyable to try to be helpful. What exactly would the point of telling HER what to be? She is not here. She is perfectly fine as long as you are buying her expensive crap. What would motivate her to come on here?


I am not sure I understand. 

She doesn't want expensive crap, but she wants to sometimes use it to make me do things like spend more time with the kids, more than I think is right. She is a bit of a helicopter mom. If I buy her something which is too expensive, she will get mad at me for wasting money. 

I dare not get her here. She will kick my behind for sure. Reason is for sharing this information.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> No, I haven't, is there a link to it or is it Googleable?
> I am Hindu.
> I must clarify that the $5000 watch woman is not my wife. My wife would never want something like that. In fact if I bought her a $5000 watch, *SHE *would smack me upside the head. I was referring to a friend couple who we have known for 10+ years. The husband is always showing off about himself and about what a great husband he is. He wants all the other ladies to praise him. He bought himself a $10,000 Rolex watch! The only problem is he isn't financially to the level where a $10k watch is nothing. He makes more or less as much as I do, and his wife does not work in a salaried job.


I would start making comments about gee I am so sorry that your wife won't let you prioritize your retirement instead of these expensive gifts! Must be hard on you. I am guessing sympathy is the last thing he would want.  But really they are not your problem. I hope YOU don't feel bad being compared to this guy. He sounds like a goof.




> But of course, that won't stop my wife from using this against me when she is mad at me!


Bwah! This is called a fitness test. Is my man strong enough to stand up to balogna, even when it comes from me. Don't let her use it against you. If she slings mud, get out of the way. "I will not engage in that kind of discussion. When you want to speak about OUR issues, rather than so and so's watch, I will be available by cell phone." Then walk out the door. Calmly.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> I am not sure I understand.


You keep making comments about how everyone wants to "put it on the man" and no one wants to help. I am here trying to help. 



> She doesn't want expensive crap, but she wants to sometimes use it to make me do things like spend more time with the kids, more than I think is right. She is a bit of a helicopter mom. If I buy her something which is too expensive, she will get mad at me for wasting money.
> 
> I dare not get her here. She will kick my behind for sure. Reason is for sharing this information.


No you missed my point. I guess my lesser point. My lesser point is you keep feeling defensive, as if everyone is "putting it in the man". I suppose that might be the case for some, I cannot say I have read every single post. But most people are simply talking to YOU about what YOU can do because YOU are the one who is here.

The greater point is you need to learn to set effective and calm limits.


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## Ceegee

I think you need to read up on sh1t tests Nirvana. 

There are plenty of threads here on TAM about them.


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## BookOfJob

Ceegee said:


> I think you need to read up on sh1t tests Nirvana.
> 
> There are plenty of threads here on TAM about them.


Again, Nirvana, are you reading any books at all?


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## nirvana

NobodySpecial said:


> I would start making comments about gee I am so sorry that your wife won't let you prioritize your retirement instead of these expensive gifts! Must be hard on you. I am guessing sympathy is the last thing he would want.  But really they are not your problem. I hope YOU don't feel bad being compared to this guy. He sounds like a goof.


He is an intelligent and hard working guy but he loves to show off and garner praise. What he spends on is his business, but it affects me when my wife uses his "goodness" to beat up on me when she is mad while not taking a balanced view of things. I am good at some things and he is good at some others. But my wife wants the best of every man in me and gets angry when it doesn't happen. It will never happen. What if I expected my wife to make six figures, be a great mom to our kids, keep the house spotless, cook a 5 course meal every night, maintain herself like a model, and be my w****e at night? That will never happen but I know one person cannot do it all.



> Bwah! This is called a fitness test. Is my man strong enough to stand up to balogna, even when it comes from me. Don't let her use it against you. If she slings mud, get out of the way. "I will not engage in that kind of discussion. When you want to speak about OUR issues, rather than so and so's watch, I will be available by cell phone." Then walk out the door. Calmly.


haha! Maybe. 
If so, I have passed the test, though I complain about it. I have not given in and made some stupid purchase that I regretted or could not afford. It takes discipline and courage because the peer pressure is tremendous. The only thing I need to improve on myself is learn to ignore when she goes off on rants about this. When she is not angry, she is happy about where we are. When she is mad, then the comparison starts and her life sucks (according to her). Go figure. 

Sometimes it is the hormones during PMS, but sometimes it is not. I have an app that tracks her cycles, so I know not to take her rants seriously. As the day approaches, I just let her say what she wants and I don't reply because she seems to be itching for a fight. Are all women like this? She got her period this morning. And I could not find my jacket while on to work and she said "Yes. I have been hiding all your jackets just to make sure you cannot find it". Hmm... I just let it slide.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> He is an intelligent and hard working guy but he loves to show off and garner praise. What he spends on is his business, but it affects me when my wife uses his "goodness" to beat up on me when she is mad while not taking a balanced view of things.


Setting effective limits means not putting up with this "beatings". 



> I am good at some things and he is good at some others. But my wife wants the best of every man in me and gets angry when it doesn't happen. It will never happen.


More likely she is subconsciously asking you what kind of man you are with a fitness test, aka sh!t test. Many women will tell you that women don't do that. But ALL people test limits, even unconsciously. It is the natural opposite of people will treat you how you teach them to treat you.



> What if I expected my wife to make six figures, be a great mom to our kids, keep the house spotless, cook a 5 course meal every night, maintain herself like a model, and be my w****e at night? That will never happen but I know one person cannot do it all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> haha! Maybe.
> If so, I have passed the test, though I complain about it. I have not given in and made some stupid purchase that I regretted or could not afford. It takes discipline and courage because the peer pressure is tremendous. The only thing I need to improve on myself is learn to ignore when she goes off on rants about this. When she is not angry, she is happy about where we are. When she is mad, then the comparison starts and her life sucks (according to her). Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> If she is still throwing it in your face, you did not pass the test.
Click to expand...


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## nirvana

Well, I don't agree. She will keep testing me and not give up. I would have failed the test if I caved in and bought her a fancy car she wanted during the 2008 recession when my job was at risk and she wasn't working. I said no and that was it. I have said no several times when I thought it made sense. 
But she will keep testing me. It's a control or power thing. Women love to control their husbands and make them do things and gloat to their friends. That seems to be the in-thing now.


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## nirvana

BookOfJob said:


> Again, Nirvana, are you reading any books at all?


I read more than half of No MoreNice Guy and a few pages of another one about love Languages. Need to make some time among the otherchores.


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## NobodySpecial

nirvana said:


> Well, I don't agree. She will keep testing me and not give up. I would have failed the test if I caved in and bought her a fancy car she wanted during the 2008 recession when my job was at risk and she wasn't working. I said no and that was it. I have said no several times when I thought it made sense.
> But she will keep testing me. It's a control or power thing. Women love to control their husbands and make them do things and gloat to their friends. That seems to be the in-thing now.


I am not talking about caving and buying things. I am talking about saying, I am not going to listen to you rant at me for the things someone else buys for their spouse. If you want to talk about rearranging the budget priorities, we can do that when you are no longer mad. And walking away.


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## MissBrittB87

nirvana said:


> Wow, so many erroneous assumptions, in just 1 post!


You are making alot of your own assumptions. You talk about "women" like they are all the same. "Women want to control" "women want everything" "Women want wealth" Or you say most. That is a huge generalization. Your experience with women does not define all women. That right there is an unfair thing to say and damaging as it only hardens your heart towards your wife, looking for negative motives behind her every move. I married my husband because I loved him. He is kind and good, funny and romantic-and handsome too, ha-but that was a bonus. He is everything I thought I would never find in a man. The best person I have ever met. He is hard working-but by no means are we rich. We struggle. We both work full time we both are paying off student loan debt. I hate the idea of being "controlling". I love my husband to lead me in things when I need help. 

Most women I am friends with are married to men who are hard workers but do not make enough to support the household and the women work as well.None of my friends married wealthy. 

So I think it would help if you stopped making assumptions about women and maybe didn't make them so quickly about your wife. If you go into a conversation with the mindset "She is going to say what she always says" than you are not really listening. People need to be heard. 

On the other hand, you are right-it does go both ways. She needs to listen to you and make you a priority. One of you has to be the bigger person and put resentment aside and decide to be kind for no reason other than the fact that you love each other. Have an open heart. Counseling is a great idea! Date nights are important, She should be willing to do that! I would think it would make her happy-maybe if you put more effort into making a real connection with the kids-not just carting them to various school activities and such-she would feel like a more connected family and appreciate your efforts and want to make her own. 

I hope things continue to improve, the flowers was a lovely thing to do. Maybe a couple surprises like that now and then would make all the difference. Hopefully she will begin to reciprocate! If not, talk to her openly and kindly, tell her it makes you feel lonely. It's okay to be a little vulnerable with your wife!


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## aine

nirvana said:


> We aren't divorcing, guys.
> I said it, but I was in pain when I did. I have no plans to. Maybe counseling at most. I am 40+ and she is getting there. It isn't easy for Indian people just to go to a bar and find someone here in the US. We will most likely be alone for the rest of our lives. Not worth it.
> 
> I probably have to reconcile with it that women never or rarely appreciate their men. Once I do that, then it will not matter to me. It's about expectation management. I have to do the right thing always.


Nirvana, that is a very sad thing to say that you will just stick together cause you cannot find someone else and women dont appreciate their men. You need to read His Needs, Her Needs and understand what makes your woman tick. If you start putting those ideas into practice now you could have a very fulfilling marriage by the time the kids grow up.


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## BookOfJob

The following quote is pretty much on the ball:



NobodySpecial said:


> If she is still throwing it in your face, you did not pass the (sh1t - ed) test.


This below, however, is the "carrot" portion in the "carrot and stick" approach. Overdoing this will get you more of the **** tests:


MissBrittB87 said:


> I hope things continue to improve, the flowers was a lovely thing to do. Maybe a couple surprises like that now and then would make all the difference. Hopefully she will begin to reciprocate! If not, talk to her openly and kindly, tell her it makes you feel lonely. It's okay to be a little vulnerable with your wife!





aine said:


> .... You need to read His Needs, Her Needs and understand what makes your woman tick....





nirvana said:


> I read more than half of No More Nice Guy and a few pages of another one about love Languages. Need to make some time among the other chores.


So basically you get your reading assignment lined up correctly. For Sh1t tests, the best reference can be found in the sticky of this forum (1st post in the forum). It sounds like you hate the reading assignments, but it can be an eye opener. You just haven't seen it. It's OK, you get plenty of time to go through them one by one. Another one when you're done with the 3 above, is what's called "MMSLP".


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## nirvana

OK, we were out a few days ago on a brisk walk and her mood was off. I asked her what and she said I never got her things. So I asked her what she wanted and she said she wanted a bicycle and has been asking for ages. So I told her remember I had been suggesting that we go to Walmart an hour ago? I told you you we needed to get cups and plates, but the real reason was to look for a bike for you. She said really? You are not just saying it? But I had proof!
I opened up my Todo app right there and under "Today", I showed her an entry for "Mrs Nirvana bicycle". Her mood immediately brightened up.

So yesterday I worked from home and she was at work but was insisting I go pick up the kids first. I said we will meet at Walmart to look for bikes. Being the "good mom" she likes to be, she objected and said I never listened to her. Whatever, I thought and pushed for us meeting at Walmart. She saw some bikes, liked one and we decided to get that but could not fit it in the car.

So today I dropped off my son to tennis an went to Walmart without telling her and just bought the bike and brought it home. She was thrilled! She was used to me just postponing but I pushed through and now she has what she wanted. Now she wants me to get one too so we can all go for rides.


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