# Newbie - Marriage crisis or overthinking it?



## netgear64

I've never been on one of these sites before. But I felt because of what happened recently in my life, I needed a second opinion. 

We have always been very committed to our relationship. In fact, my wife and I just got back from our 20th anniversary trip in Europe and had a wonderful time. However, one day, due to a scheduling error in our train trip, we didn't get to sit next to each other for the two-hour train ride. I didn't think anything of it until later when she confessed that night that a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her. She told me she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either. She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. She also said that she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation.

She's been hit on or whistled at in years past, and I've just laughed it off because she has. But this was the first time I felt really hurt mainly because she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.

We've talked about this several times since it happened and have had open, calm communication which I feel has helped, even though it has hurt to hear some of her feelings. In fact, the other night she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt. That's what really concerns me.

She feels so bad about it, how it makes me feel and knows I have always been a true and loving husband and father. We feel it could be due to a lack of passion, spark, intimacy, that may tend to fizzle through the years of marriage. I shower her with affection daily. I don't know what more I can do to reinvigorate the electric passion we had when we were dating 20 years ago. Am I over-reacting to flirting or is this a genuine red flag for a deeper emotional disconnect in our relationship? Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## Livvie

I don't think you are overreacting. And I think it's more a red flag about her specifically rather than about your relationship.


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## Casual Observer

I think it could be a positive thing to realize just how attractive and sought-after my wife is. My wife wasn't at all bothered when I told her about the time in CVS, just before Christmas a few years ago, I had somehow gotten into a conversation with a very attractive woman just a bit younger than I (definitely in an eligible age range though) about airline travel & issues and she asked me out for a drink. Had not had that happen before. It did make me feel pretty good. It didn't make my wife feel inadequate at all. I think a little bit of that sort of thing isn't such a bad thing for the ego... for either the person it happens to or their spouse.


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## phillybeffandswiss

She was kissed, enjoyed it, didn't want it to stop, didn't get up, let it continue for two hours and wants to keep the memory. Then she did the cool stuff cheaters, I am calling this cheating do, feel guilty and blame it on everything, but themselves. I mean she did tell you the kids saved her from...... from what exactly? So, if you were just married and no kids she would of left you on the train and gone with unknown guy?

No, you are not overreacting.




Casual Observer said:


> I think it could be a positive thing to realize just how attractive and sought-after my wife is. My wife wasn't at all bothered when I told her about the time in CVS, just before Christmas a few years ago, I had somehow gotten into a conversation with a very attractive woman just a bit younger than I (definitely in an eligible age range though) about airline travel & issues and she asked me out for a drink. Had not had that happen before. It did make me feel pretty good. It didn't make my wife feel inadequate at all. I think a little bit of that sort of thing isn't such a bad thing for the ego... for either the person it happens to or their spouse.


Hunh? They kissed, she didn't get up and didn't want to. No, just, no. There is nothing positive about this situation except he knows his marriage is in trouble.


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## netgear64

Casual Observer said:


> I think it could be a positive thing to realize just how attractive and sought-after my wife is. My wife wasn't at all bothered when I told her about the time in CVS, just before Christmas a few years ago, I had somehow gotten into a conversation with a very attractive woman just a bit younger than I (definitely in an eligible age range though) about airline travel & issues and she asked me out for a drink. Had not had that happen before. It did make me feel pretty good. It didn't make my wife feel inadequate at all. I think a little bit of that sort of thing isn't such a bad thing for the ego... for either the person it happens to or their spouse.


Any other time, I wouldn't have thought about it and I haven't in the past. But this seemed different, based on her emotional attachment to the situation and to this strange man.


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## Casual Observer

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hunh? They kissed, she didn't get up and didn't want to. No, just, no. There is nothing positive about this situation except he knows his marriage is in trouble.


He leaned over and kissed her. "They" didn't kiss. Maybe they did, we don't really know, but you're reading more into this than the OP gave. 

There is one unusual thing though. Wouldn't the wife have been nervous about her husband coming back and checking up on her from time to time? I would have, just to see how she's doing and say hello.


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## netgear64

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She was kissed, enjoyed it, didn't want it to stop, didn't get up, let it continue for two hours and wants to keep the memory. Then she did the cool stuff cheaters, I am calling this cheating do, feel guilty and blame it on everything, but themselves. I mean she did tell you the kids saved her from...... from what exactly? So, if you were just married and no kids she would of left you on the train and gone with unknown guy?
> 
> No, you are not overreacting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunh? They kissed, she didn't get up and didn't want to. No, just, no. There is nothing positive about this situation except he knows his marriage is in trouble.


I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?


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## niceguy47460

You had better start keeping an eye on her close now . with what she said it has put the cheating aspect in her head now . so i would start watching her closer . now that she got a taste of it . she will more than likely start looking for more . watch her phone and any social media . and do not fall for any girls night out . and if she works don't fall for any co-workers going out for drinks . watch for sudden changes in mood or actions .


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## Casual Observer

netgear64 said:


> I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?


Wait until you get to 40 years! 

This vacation- was it a place she really wanted to go? Was this her time, or was she accompanying you? I make sure to take my wife someplace she really wants to go once a year. It's all about her. Not where I'd like to go, but I enjoy it because she enjoys it, and she knows it's all about her. Hmm. It never occurred to me that "all about her" could be helping her fulfill a fantasy with a stranger on a train! OK, sorry, cheap joke. But what do you normally do for fun? Does she get to help plan things? Otherwise, I can see the "checking-out emotionally" being a problem. 

For my wife and I, at 20 years, we were in the very busy stage of raising kids and running a business, basically a separate life for her (raising kids) and me (running the business). She has now repeatedly reminded me that this was all my doing and not a good thing because it forced her to become independent of me and today, she has retained a bit too much desire for independence. So I think you're good looking into this now, taking it reasonably seriously (not what happened on the train so much as the checking-out thing in general). You don't want to be 40 years in and looking back, thinking about the things that should have been taken care of 20 years ago.


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## niceguy47460

netgear64 said:


> phillybeffandswiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> She was kissed, enjoyed it, didn't want it to stop, didn't get up, let it continue for two hours and wants to keep the memory. Then she did the cool stuff cheaters, I am calling this cheating do, feel guilty and blame it on everything, but themselves. I mean she did tell you the kids saved her from...... from what exactly? So, if you were just married and no kids she would of left you on the train and gone with unknown guy?
> 
> No, you are not overreacting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hunh? They kissed, she didn't get up and didn't want to. No, just, no. There is nothing positive about this situation except he knows his marriage is in trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?
Click to expand...

I think it more the lack of excitement the unknown the unexpected . you have fallen into the same routine over the years . you might try something different in the bedroom . like maybe blindfolds and stuff like that . 

But be very worried about what has happened


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## phillybeffandswiss

netgear64 said:


> I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?


 People check out for multiple reasons excitement, aging, midlife crisis, weight change, time apart etc etc. There are hundreds if not thousands of reasons.

If you want targeted "constructive" help, you are going to want to provide more of a marital history. General advice is not going to help because you may be doing these things already and it is a bigger issue than you believe. 


Playing catch up is hard at anytime and after 20 years it is going to be rough.


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## moulinyx

I don't know why everyone is being so negative about this conversation. Your wife came to you wanting to communicate and has had multiple conversations about this issue to help you feel better. She was open and honest....even though what she said isn't what you wanted to hear, she still respects you enough to be upfront with you. She doesn't sound like a terrible person. If anything she sounds like someone who loves you and wants that feeling with you. Who wouldn't feel good being hit on by an attractive person? Women want to be pursued so this isn't surprising that is was a thrill. The point is she didn't want to trade her whole life for a fleeting moment of passion with a stranger. Cheaters do not behave this way. Cheaters hide things and manipulate situations in order to not get caught. 

I suggest reading a book related to reigniting the spark in marriage or even ask her what her idea of a perfect romantic night is. Its so easy to fall into a routine and lose sight of what drew you to each other in the first place. 

Also, congrats on 20 years!


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## Andy1001

Did she get his phone number and are they in contact?


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## sunsetmist

Presuming all was good in the marriage:

I think she was overwhelmed by a young, good-looking, con-man/player who does this regularly to see what he can get. It was a game to him. She, otoh, was excited, feeling attractive and sexy--a touch of limerence there. SHE should have cut him off, but did not. 

Yet, she told OP and made the choice to honor her marriage vows. Now they need to work together to bring 'those loving feelings' back to their marriage. He needs to focus on her needs for intimacy and connection; she needs to focus on him feeling appreciated and sexually fulfilled.

Sounds like @Casual Observer could give him/them some pointers.


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## Emerging Buddhist

The only way to stay faithful is to be faithful in actions and words... if one loosens the boundaries by choosing which desire is permitted the slope steepens quickly and before long the boundary becomes the cliff.

I have never witnessed "harmless flirting" from married people be anything but harmful unless both are in agreement with the behavior, and it does not sound like this is the case here.

Attraction to poor choices are poor choices in themselves...


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## netgear64

phillybeffandswiss said:


> People check out for multiple reasons excitement, aging, midlife crisis, weight change, time apart etc etc. There are hundreds if not thousands of reasons.
> 
> If you want targeted "constructive" help, you are going to want to provide more of a marital history. General advice is not going to help because you may be doing these things already and it is a bigger issue than you believe.
> 
> 
> Playing catch up is hard at anytime and after 20 years it is going to be rough.


I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.


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## cashcratebob

moulinyx said:


> I don't know why everyone is being so negative about this conversation. Your wife came to you wanting to communicate and has had multiple conversations about this issue to help you feel better. She was open and honest....even though what she said isn't what you wanted to hear, she still respects you enough to be upfront with you. She doesn't sound like a terrible person. If anything she sounds like someone who loves you and wants that feeling with you. Who wouldn't feel good being hit on by an attractive person? Women want to be pursued so this isn't surprising that is was a thrill. The point is she didn't want to trade her whole life for a fleeting moment of passion with a stranger. Cheaters do not behave this way. Cheaters hide things and manipulate situations in order to not get caught.
> 
> I suggest reading a book related to reigniting the spark in marriage or even ask her what her idea of a perfect romantic night is. Its so easy to fall into a routine and lose sight of what drew you to each other in the first place.
> 
> Also, congrats on 20 years!


I mean I guess you could read it that way. I read it that if OP wasn't on that train, she would have been all over the guy and I think OPs words support that way more.


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## netgear64

moulinyx said:


> I don't know why everyone is being so negative about this conversation. Your wife came to you wanting to communicate and has had multiple conversations about this issue to help you feel better. She was open and honest....even though what she said isn't what you wanted to hear, she still respects you enough to be upfront with you. She doesn't sound like a terrible person. If anything she sounds like someone who loves you and wants that feeling with you. Who wouldn't feel good being hit on by an attractive person? Women want to be pursued so this isn't surprising that is was a thrill. The point is she didn't want to trade her whole life for a fleeting moment of passion with a stranger. Cheaters do not behave this way. Cheaters hide things and manipulate situations in order to not get caught.
> 
> I suggest reading a book related to reigniting the spark in marriage or even ask her what her idea of a perfect romantic night is. Its so easy to fall into a routine and lose sight of what drew you to each other in the first place.
> 
> Also, congrats on 20 years!



Wow, thank you. I loved your comment. I tend to agree with you in this, as I do not believe my wife had any deceptive or malicious intent in this situation. She was flattered, like the attention of being pursued and liked being in the position to say no.
I do believe our "routine" has contributed to our decline in marital spark.


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## cashcratebob

Only been married 15 years...so not entirely an expert. If you want some advice, I can recommend the "Married Man's sex life Primer" and also "Women's Infidelity" by Michelle Langley to find out a little more what is going on in your wife's head. Her words might as well be quotes from Langley's book. 

Not gonna lie though, your response just seems odd to me. Your wife says essentially she wanted it to go further, but because you were in the vicinity it didn't...and you want to delve into the "disconnect"? There is a time for that but I really think you are glossing over the implications of what she did and what that means for her as a person, your relationship, and the next time she finds herself away from you getting hit on by a younger guy. 

I'm gonna throw this out there, your initial and further responses reek of a certain level of validation seeking from a Wayward Wife and not the typical questions/response a Betrayed Husband has.


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## moulinyx

cashcratebob said:


> I mean I guess you could read it that way. I read it that if OP wasn't on that train, she would have been all over the guy and I think OPs words support that way more.


I totally agree it could be read that way. I guess I interpreted the situation as being flattered by being hit on, getting a bit of a thrill, but then pumping the breaks when it crossed that respectful boundary. She missed that feeling and told her husband straight away. I have been hit on numerous times of flights but its not like I would ever act on it or leave my family. But its nice to know you still got it? Its fun getting to flaunt that you are spoken for. 

Actually, I literally had the same situation happen while we were engaged. I was at a girl's night out, was hit on, guy tried to kiss me, I said I was engaged and went on with my night. I totally loved the feeling of still being desired, but I never once thought about engaging in a kiss. If anything it made me feel good that I was only interested in my husband and didn't want outside affection. 

I guess that is just my opinion. The state of the marriage is something to think about as well.


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## moulinyx

netgear64 said:


> Wow, thank you. I loved your comment. I tend to agree with you in this, as I do not believe my wife had any deceptive or malicious intent in this situation. She was flattered, like the attention of being pursued and liked being in the position to say no.
> I do believe our "routine" has contributed to our decline in marital spark.


Hell yeah she liked that control! It is a thrill! If you think about it, its been 20 years since she's been pursued by a stranger strictly because she was attractive. I suggest trying to "date" your wife again. Actually use the word "date", schedule a time, and act like you are still trying to impress each other. When people stop dating, I totally think its easy for that spark to go away.


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## phillybeffandswiss

netgear64 said:


> I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
> I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.


It should be concerning to you. Don't let the eventual side taking, anger, triggers and minimizing sway you. 

I have not said divorce, called your wife names or even suggested your marriage is over. I have not said her feelings are unwarranted. I am saying how you feel is warranted. Yes, this isn't me or anyone else being negative, it is concerning and not you overreacting. It was not okay, it wasn't some innocent flirting and it is hurtful to you. it is not the end of your marriage, but unchecked it can be.

If you need the posts, I can get you many women who would be screaming red alert right now.

She appears honest so, you should ask her specific questions and see where they lead.
Find out again, what type of intamacy does she like. Does she like overt displays of affection. Does she like suprises. Things change over 20 years what was hot when you dated may be old and tired now.


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## moulinyx

netgear64 said:


> I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
> I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.


Missed this one!

Flopping on the couch in your lounge clothes every night will never, ever, ever, be sexy. It just isn't. There's nights where that is appropriate but it seems like you already know why that situation was exciting for her. Can you say you wouldn't have felt a bit of a thrill? You guys sound so solid and I hope to be able to say that about my marriage in 20 years. 

Spice up the bedroom and date your wife. From a female perspective, it doesn't strike me as wanting to go outside the marriage.


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## netgear64

cashcratebob said:


> Only been married 15 years...so not entirely an expert. If you want some advice, I can recommend the "Married Man's sex life Primer" and also "Women's Infidelity" by Michelle Langley to find out a little more what is going on in your wife's head. Her words might as well be quotes from Langley's book.
> 
> Not gonna lie though, your response just seems odd to me. Your wife says essentially she wanted it to go further, but because you were in the vicinity it didn't...and you want to delve into the "disconnect"? There is a time for that but I really think you are glossing over the implications of what she did and what that means for her as a person, your relationship, and the next time she finds herself away from you getting hit on by a younger guy.
> 
> I'm gonna throw this out there, your initial and further responses reek of a certain level of validation seeking from a Wayward Wife and not the typical questions/response a Betrayed Husband has.


Bob, thanks for the recommendations on the books. I'm sorry my responses are odd to you. Honestly, my feelings have been a mess with this, as this has never happened to me before. I feel betrayed that she wasn't quick to reject it. I feel guilty that maybe I had been lacking in some respect in our marriage. I feel like I deserved it, if I was neglecting her emotionally someway.

She liked something new, different, exciting. I get that. It's hard not to notice a hot woman in public and not take a double-take. But that's as far as I take it, as I don't think a woman would ever hit on me. In fact, I'd be shocked if that had happened to me on that train. 
Maybe I need to work on giving her that new, different, exciting, spontaneity.


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## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
> I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. *We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.*


Married 25 years. Yes, this would concern me as well. You mentioned in your first post that you shower your W with attention/affection. So yes, I do not doubt the concern your have when your W finds this 2 hours of being fanned over unbearably hard to put as stop too. 

I think the question here is for your W to answer. Has your W answered why she feels this way and let this flirting continue on for a 2 hour period? Is she being honest with herself and you with her answer? Why would she believe this school ground flirting is ok?


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## netgear64

Yeswecan said:


> Married 25 years. Yes, this would concern me as well. You mentioned in your first post that you shower your W with attention/affection. So yes, I do not doubt the concern your have when your W finds this 2 hours of being fanned over unbearably hard to put as stop too.
> 
> I think the question here is for your W to answer. Has your W answered why she feels this way and let this flirting continue on for a 2 hour period? Is she being honest with herself and you with her answer? Why would she believe this school ground flirting is ok?


The thing my wife comes back to when we talked, was it just seemed a flattering, exciting and different. At 42 years of age and constantly feeling insecure about her looks (which she has no room to complain about), she felt so sexy in that moment to this guy.
She told me "she expects me (her husband) to say those things, but to hear it validated by some Italian guy 8 years younger, felt better".
She's being honest with me and with herself, even though the honesty hurts. She insists that the flirting was one-sided, yet she admits she didn't want it to stop, even though she would tell him to.


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## Noble1

Sounds like there are no "lingering" effects of her encounter - unless she has his contact details and is 'innocently' re-connecting with just a friendly stranger who has no intention of messing up your marriage.

From what you wrote and from many other threads here, this could be the first step on a downward spiral (or it might not be).

At this point, it sounds like you and your wife spoke about it and things are ok if not exactly settled.

The thing I personally would be worried about is that your wife now had a taste of "inimate" contact with someone other than you - and that makes it all the better experience for her (guessing here).

There is not much else that I see to suggest that others have not already done so.

What I would do is take steps to trust but verify for the next bit and just ride things out and see how they turn up.


Yes, if you are at the point of needing to do things to "verify - examples of which are all over these threads" then the relationship is not the best it could be and maybe taking a negative view on things is not the right way, but it is a way forward.

I'll stop now since I appear to be rambling.

Good luck.


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## cashcratebob

@netgear64 you wrote the following: "She told me she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either. She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. She also said that she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation."

That last sentence really sounds like because circumstances weren't quite right it didn't go further. But if you are saying that that is how I shouldn't take it, then I'll go with that. 

But ok, lack of excitement. Read those books, they will vector you I guess on what you need to do to make a go at getting back that excitement. 

There is a reality you need to come to grips with though; getting hit on by a stranger is an excitement you can't reproduce. You can make your own 20 year married husband excitement that she will like, but it won't be the same feeling she gets with a chance encounter with an attractive younger man who lets her know what he thinks. Not necessarily better...just not the same.


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## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> The thing my wife comes back to when we talked, was it just seemed a flattering, exciting and different. At 42 years of age and constantly feeling insecure about her looks (which she has no room to complain about), she felt so sexy in that moment to this guy.
> She told me "she expects me (her husband) to say those things, but to hear it validated by some Italian guy 8 years younger, felt better".
> She's being honest with me and with herself, even though the honesty hurts. She insists that the flirting was one-sided, yet she admits she didn't want it to stop, even though she would tell him to.


I tell you man, hearing "you are expected to say those things because you are my H" drives me up the wall. It is such a crock of nonsense. No, I'm not expected to say things like this because I'm the H. I say things like this because I mean it. I have had to say this a few times to my W and left no doubt when I say to my W she is hot, sexy, beautiful these facts are true. Not something to waste the oxygen saying it. I'm not just "saying that" and don't really mean it. I say it. I mean it. I'm sure you do as well. 


Now, getting validation from others is fine. Say thank you and move on. Does your W understand that stating to you that she "felt better" from this attention now completely INVALIDATES anything you say or affection shown? Your W is off the rails if she honestly feels you say and express words of affection, affirmation, praise because you are supposed to. I think this is a conversation you need to have with your W. State the facts. You don't say any of it because you have too, supposed to and what H do. 

Flirting one sided, ok. The young man was fishing. Your W appearing to take the bait(play along) but was not really going to. It was fun and felt good. I'm happy for your W. However, it makes you and what words of affection you say to your W no better than a pile of sh-it. She needs to understand how belittling it is to say you are supposed to say things like this so it is totally meaningless.


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## netgear64

Yeswecan said:


> I tell you man, hearing "you are expected to say those things because you are my H" drives me up the wall. *It is such a crock of nonsense. No, I'm not expected to say things like this because I'm the H. * I say things like this because I mean it. I have had to say this a few times to my W and left no doubt when I say to my W she is hot, sexy, beautiful these facts are true. Not something to waste the oxygen saying it. I'm not just "saying that" and don't really mean it. I say it. I mean it. I'm sure you do as well.
> 
> 
> Now, getting validation from others is fine. Say thank you and move on. *Does your W understand that stating to you that she "felt better" from this attention now completely INVALIDATES anything you say or affection shown? * Your W is off the rails if she honestly feels you say and express words of affection, affirmation, praise because you are supposed to. I think this is a conversation you need to have with your W. State the facts. You don't say any of it because you have too, supposed to and what H do.
> 
> Flirting one sided, ok. The young man was fishing. Your W appearing to take the bait(play along) but was not really going to. It was fun and felt good. I'm happy for your W. However, it makes you and what words of affection you say to your W no better than a pile of sh-it. She needs to understand how belittling it is to say you are supposed to say things like this so it is totally meaningless.


I do feel that as part of a part of the marital vow and union I committed to, continuing to express love for my wife was is inherent as a husband, regardless if some times it's easier to say than others. 
I never thought about the idea of my affection being invalidated by her feeling better from this man. Ouch, that hurt. But, maybe I needed to hear that. That's why I came.


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## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> I do feel that as part of a part of the marital vow and union I committed to, continuing to express love for my wife was is inherent as a husband, regardless if some times it's easier to say than others.
> I never thought about the idea of my affection being invalidated by her feeling better from this man. Ouch, that hurt. But, maybe I needed to hear that. That's why I came.


Yeah, it does hurt. Sir, when my W would say "you are supposed to say that or do this because you are my H" made me feel totally invalidated and unimportant. Just a robot burping of meaningless words. But finding validation from a total stranger is simply WONDERFUL. Some women don't understand how it cuts to the core. Specifically when these words are spoke as H to W are 100% genuine. I would say that some H get to the point they stop saying works of praise to their W because they get this very response. Why bother.


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## wilson

What a married person should have done in this situation is to shut the other person down. This wasn't a stranger having a friendly conversation. It was someone explicitly asking for sex and being physical. That should be shut down completely. If he wouldn't stop, she should have switched seats with you. Her "enjoying him asking for sex and kissing her" was really "her enjoying some sexual feelings she got from another man".

That being said, some alternative marriages incorporate this kind of behavior as part of the relationship, so clearly there's no one answer to fit all situations. 

As for my marriage, I would not think that kind of behavior was okay. If my wife engaged in it regularly, I would probably divorce. Although it is not actually cheating, it is in the grey area of cheating that I want no part of. If my wife is the kind of person who would allow this kind of explicit flirting, then she's not the person for me. (almost 30 years married, btw).


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## jlg07

You wife being flattered that it happened, NO DOUBT (and not a problem).
The fact that she, a married woman with kids, did NOT shut it down and "wanted it to happen" is complete bull****. THAT is a boundary that never should have been crossed and I think YOU are taking on guilt that it was your fault when in fact it is 100% her fault.
I think this is a huge red flag and you need to look into this deeper. How would SHE have felt if you did and said the same?


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## Robert22205

I may have missed this in your posts. Did your wife give the man her cell phone number or has he friended her on facebook? 
Seems like based on his bold behavior that he would try to follow up.


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## Oldtimer

I hope you understand that thi is just my opinion, but we’re it me being told what happened and how she felt, I would take it as a kick in the nuts. 20 years of marriage and she gets the hots for a younger man who basically molested her on the same train you were on? She didn’t stop him? What stuff did he want her to do? “ you don’t have to answer that, but think about it”. 

“I didn't think anything of it until later when she confessed that night that a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her. She told me she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either. She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. She also said that she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation”. 

This is very concerning. Will the next guy that tries when you or others aren’t around and it’s not your anniversary, get lucky?

“In fact, the other night she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt. That's what really concerns me.”

The fact that she let it happen without trying to stop it or leave would tell me that she was on a slippery slope!

I’m sorry that you are here, but you, in my mind have a right to be concerned. 

As I said, this is my opinion, take it or leave it.

Best of luck.

OT


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## Casual Observer

netgear64 said:


> I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
> I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.


And there it is, close to where my wife and I were 20 years ago, setting things in place for a bunch of pain & "realignment" we've been going through recently. 

We had, and have, by all accounts, a "solid" marriage. Appreciative, respectful, supportive. But we were moving in separate worlds, each of us with our separate tasks. I had to "provide" for the family and she had to take care of the kids. Very little time for one-on-one conversation and besides, we were in different worlds, hers centered on the kids, mine centered on the business. She was a great mother. And frankly I kept a lot of stuff to myself that I shouldn't have, accepting substandard and reluctant levels of intimacy that developed a momentum of continuity. 

If this sounds at all familiar, make use of this crisis to change. Both of you. You need to find out about the things about you, and your relationship, that bother her but she doesn't think appropriate for some reason to tell you. And vice versa. It can be really, really, REALLY painful. When my wife and I hit an unexpected and major crisis a couple months ago, something that had caused me great angst (which I'm still dealing with) and caused her to say some really painful things to me, she wanted to leave for a few days so she wouldn't say anything further that might put our future in jeopardy. I asked that instead, we go out to dinner, each of us with a list of issues to go over, leaving nothing out.

That dinner was one of the most-painful experiences of my life. Her list tore me apart. I told her to be honest, and she was, but I just had no idea of the level of resentment for some things and how much she felt she had to become her own separate person because she was taking care of the kids and the house for 20 years because I was so tied to the business. And all that changed about 10 years ago, when I started including her in things, having special vacations, paid more attention to her needs. And it turned out that didn't matter because she tenaciously hung onto the role she felt she had been forced into, and there was simply no credit at all for the changes I'd made in the past 10 years.

Think about that. You can recognize your faults, work to change, do all the right things... and it might not matter at all. Because your partner is stuck in a time warp, not the same person you married but someone who evolved into something very, very different, something you let happen and it all seemed comfortable at the time. 

So that dinner, and her list. I didn't even get a chance to read mine. I was devastated. Those things she listed went straight through my heart. How could I have been so awful? I couldn't defend against the indefensible. I helped create the roles we played. But it was extrarodinarily unfair that it DID NOT MATTER THAT I'D TAKEN HUGE STEPS TO CHANGE THE PAST 10 YEARS!!! 

We're still in crisis mode. I'm doing everything I can to try and make myself something she looks forward to being with, doing something more than watching favorite TV shows together, having substantive conversations with. And it's not been easy because she's developed her own routines & rituals and when I suggest we do something different she gets upset at me "telling me what to do." Pretty sure we're going to come out of this OK but her resistance to change is as strong as my willingness (to change). She knows what it would take to be happier, but can't come around to doing it. It is so strange.

So yeah, if any of this sounds familiar, do something about it now. The thing on the train is pretty minor compared to your next 20 years. You have an opportunity to fall in love with each other all over again. Don't waste it.


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## aquarius1

I’m in the minority here I know. Europeans have a different mindset regarding these things. This young man saw an attractive woman alone on a train. He verbalized his attraction in an attempt to get her to go home with him. European men are more forthright about their desires and have no problem telling a woman they find her attractive. This is disarming to some women who are not used to it. I see her inability to stop the conversation as two fold. She did want to appear impolite but also felt gratified that someone else besides her partner found her desirable. Did she act on it? No. And she told her husband all the details.
I see this as a one-off “stranger on a train” fantasy that ended as soon as the man realized he wasn’t going to bed her. 
Is she in danger of cheating? Not sure. He should appreciate that another man finds his wife attractive and try to find out what’s missing. In the end it is really up to her what she chooses to do with this going forward. I’m not entirely convinced that anything he says or does can alter the outcome significantly. But he can respond and make his own life decisions going forward.


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## TRy

Casual Observer said:


> He leaned over and kissed her. "They" didn't kiss.


Sorry but “they kissed”. When the other man (“OM”) kissed her, she did not slap him, yell at him, change seats, get her husband, or have him arrested, but instead continued to enjoy the OM’s company, as he was “flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her”. She admitted that she still treasures the memory of the OM which would include the kissing. It was a consensual kiss.


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## phillybeffandswiss

TRy said:


> Sorry but “they kissed”. When the other man (“OM”) kissed her, she did not slap him, yell at him, change seats, get her husband, or have him arrested, but instead continued to enjoy the OM’s company, as he was “flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her”. She admitted that she still treasures the memory of the OM which would include the kissing. It was a consensual kiss.


Let it go, I did. You know how we get those threads where minimizing runs rampant, while people are saying don't worry, but don't end up like me? This is one of those threads. 
.

I mean come on, he should "appreciate" another man kissed his wife and be happy she told him. Sorry, I just can't....lol.


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> I've never been on one of these sites before. But I felt because of what happened recently in my life, I needed a second opinion.
> 
> We have always been very committed to our relationship. In fact, my wife and I just got back from our 20th anniversary trip in Europe and had a wonderful time. However, one day, due to a scheduling error in our train trip, we didn't get to sit next to each other for the two-hour train ride. I didn't think anything of it until later when she confessed that night that a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her. She told me *she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either.* She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. She also said that *she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation.*
> 
> She's been hit on or whistled at in years past, and I've just laughed it off because she has. But this was the first time I felt really hurt mainly because she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.
> 
> We've talked about this several times since it happened and have had open, calm communication which I feel has helped, even though it has hurt to hear some of her feelings. In fact, the other night *she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt.* That's what really concerns me.
> 
> She feels so bad about it, how it makes me feel and knows I have always been a true and loving husband and father. We feel it could be due to a lack of passion, spark, intimacy, that may tend to fizzle through the years of marriage. I shower her with affection daily. I don't know what more I can do to reinvigorate the electric passion we had when we were dating 20 years ago. Am I over-reacting to flirting or is this a genuine red flag for a deeper emotional disconnect in our relationship? Any thoughts or suggestions?


So what helped her to resist, to the extent that she did, was not that she loved her husband and would never consider cheating on him, but that she didn't want to risk losing her family. The fact that it was an anniversary trip is only meaningful because you were there to catch her. In my opinion if she had been on that trip alone that guy would have scored, probably in the train restroom.

She's had a taste and she liked it. You need to monitor her and set up a rock solid post nup.

ETA: This thread should be in coping with infidelity.


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## Blondilocks

It sounds as though your wife is in the habit of telling you when men pay her attention. Is she trying to make you jealous? 

Why did she even relate all of this to you? Just because she is insecure does not give her license to hurt your feelings. You're her husband - not her girlfriend.

Look, you aren't Quasimodo and she isn't Venus in the flesh so maybe you can stop building her up and letting her tear you down.


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## TRy

netgear64 said:


> a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her.





netgear64 said:


> she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.





netgear64 said:


> the other night she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt.


Wow, you go on a special trip with your wife to Europe to celebrate your 20th wedding anniversary with her, and the romantic memory that she “didn't want to forget” from that trip was with another man. Talk about undoing the long term couples bonding that trips like this are supposed to foster, and forever ruining the memory of the trip for you.

One thing that would really bug me is that she either never told the other man that she was married, or she did and they were getting off on him seducing her right under your nose, especially if she told him that it was your 20th wedding anniversary trip.

Remember that this betrayal with the other man is not on you, but 100% on her. Resist the temptation to reward her bad behavior and do not do the pick me dance for her, as it will give her all the power and encourage future such actions. She should be doing the repair work, not you.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Blondilocks said:


> It sounds as though your wife is in the habit of telling you when men pay her attention. Is she trying to make you jealous?
> 
> Why did she even relate all of this to you? Just because she is insecure does not give her license to hurt your feelings. You're her husband - not her girlfriend.
> 
> Look, you aren't Quasimodo and she isn't Venus in the flesh so maybe you can stop building her up and letting her tear you down.


Thank you. Who tells their spouse about an intimate encounter, gender doesn't matter, then follows it up with "this is a memory I want to keep?" This is crazy becuase it isn't like this was just a one time conversation. As they kept talking, she added more and more reasons to make him uncomfortable.

Let me ask you a question Net. What conversation did you have, with your wife or whoever, that pushed you to ask a bunch of anonymous strangers for advice? 

OP, Let me add, she flops on the bed as well. 
This isn't just a you problem. 

You need to look at what she doesn't do for you as well. If you keep it one sided, which is why you are here, it is a breeding ground for resentment.


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## Blondilocks

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Thank you. *Who tells their spouse about an intimate encounter, gender doesn't matter, then follows it up with "this is a memory I want to keep?*" This is crazy becuase it isn't like this was just a one time conversation. As they kept talking, she added more and more reasons to make him uncomfortable.
> 
> Let me ask you a question Net. What conversation did you have, with your wife or whoever, that pushed you to ask a bunch of anonymous strangers for advice?
> 
> OP, Let me add, she flops on the bed as well.
> This isn't just a you problem.
> 
> You need to look at what she doesn't do for you as well. If you keep it one sided, which is why you are here, it is a breeding ground for resentment.


I attribute this to the trend "my spouse is my best friend" bull****. Some may attribute it to "radical honesty". Either way, it is self-indulgent and hurtful.

It's time for Miss Princess Pants to disembark from her pedestal.


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## EleGirl

Creepy train guy. I had stuff like this happen to me when I was younger (20's & 30's) and taking the train to get all over Europe. I found it creepy and always shut it down.

There was a good written in the 1970's by some woman who claimed to have encounters like this on the train. She claims to have gone all the way with it. In her book she claimed that it was the ultimate, anonymous sexual high. 

I wonder if your wife read that book and if what she says happened actually did.

You way that the train was crowded so she had to sit elsewhere. How many other people were seated around her? Since the train was crowded, she must not have been alone with the guy. And if she was alone with the guy, meaning that there were more seats available, why weren't you sitting there with her?


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## Blondilocks

EleGirl said:


> Creepy train guy. I had stuff like this happen to me when I was younger (20's & 30's) and taking the train to get all over Europe. I found it creepy and always shut it down.
> 
> There was a good written in the 1970's by some woman who claimed to have encounters like this on the train. She claims to have gone all the way with it. In her book she claimed that it was the ultimate, anonymous sexual high.
> 
> I wonder if your wife read that book and if what she says happened actually did.
> 
> You say that the train was crowded so she had to sit elsewhere. How many other people were seated around her? Since the train was crowded, she must not have been alone with the guy. And if she was alone with the guy, meaning that there were more seats available, why weren't you sitting there with her?


All she had to do was thank the guy for the compliment and then sweetly asked if she could impose upon him to switch seats with her husband as they were celebrating their 20th anniversary. Any man worth the distinction would have gladly obliged.


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## MattMatt

netgear64 said:


> I've never been on one of these sites before. But I felt because of what happened recently in my life, I needed a second opinion.
> 
> We have always been very committed to our relationship. In fact, my wife and I just got back from our 20th anniversary trip in Europe and had a wonderful time. However, one day, due to a scheduling error in our train trip, we didn't get to sit next to each other for the two-hour train ride. I didn't think anything of it until later when she confessed that night that a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her. She told me she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either. She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. She also said that she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation.
> 
> She's been hit on or whistled at in years past, and I've just laughed it off because she has. But this was the first time I felt really hurt mainly because she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.
> 
> We've talked about this several times since it happened and have had open, calm communication which I feel has helped, even though it has hurt to hear some of her feelings. In fact, the other night she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt. That's what really concerns me.
> 
> She feels so bad about it, how it makes me feel and knows I have always been a true and loving husband and father. We feel it could be due to a lack of passion, spark, intimacy, that may tend to fizzle through the years of marriage. I shower her with affection daily. I don't know what more I can do to reinvigorate the electric passion we had when we were dating 20 years ago. Am I over-reacting to flirting or is this a genuine red flag for a deeper emotional disconnect in our relationship? Any thoughts or suggestions?


Why did she tell you? Is it a confession or a warning about the possibility that she might be willing to go further with either that man or some other man?

Or does she want you to be kept off balance, frightened that she might be thinking about other options going forward?

Are there red flags?










Oh, yeah.

I would suggest watchful vigilance and perhaps marriage counselling and individual counselling at least for your wife.


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## MattMatt

@netgear64 I have moved your thread to Coping With Infidelity.


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## Mr.Married

Have you considered she as well knows you guys are routine trapped. Perhaps she has tried to tell you this "without directly saying it". There is no fun in telling your husband: I need you to chase after me more and show me your passion. Is she jerking your jeoulousy strings?

This is what I would do: Set your firm boundaries of what you find acceptable in marriage and what you don't...and what you expect of her. 

Then take her to the bedroom and nail her extra hard.

Read the book: Mating in Captivity

As for the other guy....thats for you to figure out but I'll say this .... She did tell you...not that it makes it right or acceptable..but she did tell you. Maybe she's asking for something....


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## BadGrammar

I would be very suspicious that she may be cheating on you full time. She may have been testing you to gauge your reaction. Start investigating. Chances are you will find that this incident is the tip of the iceberg. Keep calm and don’t let on about any suspicions. If she is up to no good, you don’t want to tip your hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattMatt

@netgear64 let us try a thought experiment.

Imagine that someone close to your wife asked your wife how the 20th anniversary trip to Europe went. Did she have a good time?

Picture what would happen if she told them that, for her, the highlight of the trip was her making out with a hunky foreign man and that the experience was so awesome that she nearly cheated on you but didn't, but that she was so moved by the experience that she never wants to ever forget it.

What would they think of her, what would they say to her?


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## alte Dame

I read just to the point where you said it was an Italian man.

Your W's experience is so common on a train in Italy as to be the standard experience for a woman on her own. From the age of 20 up into my 50's, this has happened to me. In my early thirties, I sat in a compartment alone and watched as 4 men peered into the compartment and decided to 'join' me. Soon a man who introduced himself as a policeman, off-duty, squeezed in next to me and explained that he would protect me from the wolves around me. He, of course, hit on me and actually followed me out of the train to confirm that my husband was waiting on the platform for me.

I can imagine that the first time something like this happens it is flattering and exciting. After a while, though, these men are just pests. They are predictable predators.

I am in my 60's now. The last time I was on a train in Europe, a congenial older man entered the compartment with a bottle of wine and two glasses. Of course, he offered me some. We talked. He was very charming. Was I flattered? Kind of, but this stuff gets old after a while.

I don't think this is a marriage crisis. She shouldn't have let him kiss her. I'm assuming that he just did it and she didn't reciprocate. Even so, that has to be addressed. Otherwise, her reaction was relatively normal, in my opinion.

Also, I think her telling you all the details is her way of saying to the man she loves, 'See? I've still got it! Other men are attracted to me! I'm flattered and want you to take note as my husband. I'm not just a mom and wife. I want you to romance me the way you used to.'

Just my .02.


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## Robert22205

I'm not accusing your wife of adultery but her behavior was inappropriate and a red flag with respect to you feeling safe from infidelity. Particularly when 
celebrating your marriage. There may be things about your marriage that can/need to improve - but her decision to flirt & kiss is 100% on her.

The feel good validation can become addictive and is very difficult to stop. 
I hope she did not give him her phone number or friend him on social media (for more validation from him). 
The addictive nature of validation is very powerful and makes good people do stupid self destructive things.

I suggest you both read: Not Just Friends by dr shirley glass
It's based on studies of couples that experienced infidelity. It talks about different types of affairs, the justifications, and 'how' or what boundaries were broken along the way until things became physical. You and your wife will have a better understanding of what happened on the train (and what to do going forward) after reading this book.

Every spouse has an obligation to make their spouse feel safe from infidelity. Her behavior and the discussion afterward failed. Maybe she feels guilty but she's not sorry she did it - and she's not sorry she upset you. Her thinking is flawed (have her read the book). 

She also essentially blames you by saying you don't make her feel special enough. Unfortunately this is a common justification from adulterers. 
First, you (as the boring married partner) can never compete with the attention she gets from a younger OM (that's why she should have shut him down immediately to protect her marriage from further temptation). Again - have her read the book.

Under these circumstances there's no such thing as just a kiss. This was prolonged and focused flirting that included a kiss. 
Studies (interviews, surveys) of couples that experienced infidelity found that the single most important boundary was the kiss - and the flirting quickly escalated after the kiss to more physical intimacy. 

Again - read the book - and make sure there's NO further contact from him 2-3 weeks from now.

Things to look for: a new messaging app or the OM on her social media account, guarding or password protecting her cell phone from you, taking it into the bathroom, increased texting and/or texting from another room out of sight, and check your cell phone provider statement for calls to a number you don't recognize.


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## Rubix Cubed

TRy said:


> Wow, you go on a special trip with your wife to Europe to celebrate your 20th wedding anniversary with her, and the romantic memory that she “didn't want to forget” from that trip was with another man. Talk about undoing the long term couples bonding that trips like this are supposed to foster, and forever ruining the memory of the trip for you.
> 
> One thing that would really bug me is that she either never told the other man that she was married, or she did and they were getting off on him seducing her right under your nose, especially if she told him that it was your 20th wedding anniversary trip.
> 
> Remember that this betrayal with the other man is not on you, but 100% on her. Resist the temptation to reward her bad behavior and do not do the pick me dance for her, as it will give her all the power and encourage future such actions. She should be doing the repair work, not you.


 This^ @netgear64
I hate to break it to your wife, but Guido was just looking for an easy piece of ass. If that is flattering then she has some serious self-esteem issues. The fact that Guido ranked higher than you for the memory of your 20th-anniversary trip is just rubbing salt in the wounds. Yeah, she told you ... well after the fact so you could do nothing about it because she didn't want you to do anything about it. Not to mention these admissions always get minimized, so I'd fully bet she returned the flirtations and the kiss and doing it with you right there was part of the thrill that made it so memorable for her. I'd also venture the next time you had sex she was thinking about doing him.

Have you asked her if she exchanged any info or has any ongoing contact with him? You should if you haven't. This has the makings of an online emotional affair written all over it.


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## MattMatt

Rubix Cubed said:


> This^
> @netgear64
> I hate to break it to your wife, but Guido was just looking for an easy piece of ass. If that is flattering then she has some serious self-esteem issues. The fact that Guido ranked higher than you for the memory of your 20th-anniversary trip is just rubbing salt in the wounds. Yeah, she told you ... well after the fact so you could do nothing about it because she didn't want you to do anything about it. Not to mention these admissions always get minimized, so I'd fully bet she returned the flirtations and the kiss and doing it with you right there was part of the thrill that made it so memorable for her. I'd also venture the next time you had sex she was thinking about doing him.
> 
> Have you asked her if she exchanged any info or has any ongoing contact with him? You should if you haven't. This has the makings of an online emotional affair written all over it.


The problem might not be Guido (He's an ocean away, after all...) the problem might be any future "Guidos" who could cross her path locally.


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## Rubix Cubed

MattMatt said:


> ANOTHER problem might not be Guido (He's an ocean away, after all...) the problem might be any future "Guidos" who could cross her path locally.


 Fixed it for you!

I have read numerous accounts here of online EAs that were consummated into PAs "an ocean away" but *local* "Guidos" are definitely a worry as well, now that the "attention" seeds have been sown. As stated before the 20 year husband doesn't stand a chance against the new risky thrill guy if that is what she is looking for. He can't do much about it, she has to fix herself.


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## stillthinking

A little flirting, ok whatever. 

But a little flirting + Kiss + “Lets go screw somewhere” + even more flirting + really digging it= problem. 

Like taking OxyContin for the first time and loving it. She got a taste. 

What happens if she wants the fix again and you are not on a anniversary trip? If you are out of town and she is just getting groceries?

IMO You need to make your position known. Just a subtle little something like, “You know if something like this happens again I am not going to be as understanding.” And just leave it at that. No specific if/then demands. Let her mind run with it. 

Also IMO scale back the compliments. If you get a cookie everyday it’s no longer a treat. If you get it once in a while it’s more enjoyable. And after all, she admitted they don’t mean much coming from you anyway. Don’t be passive aggressive or snarky about it. Just adjust your behavior. Demonstrate don’t explicate.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Net let me explain myself.

I am using your own words as my basis. i didn't read anything extra into your post.

Most of us know about **** tests. Normally, I would chalk it up to one if I ignored everything else you posted. 
Dude flirted, she liked it, he made a pass and she did the right thing and told her husband. 

The end. 

Meh whatever. 
Move along. 

Yes, even with the three stories saying whatever about European men and being asked out to a bar.

Meh whatever. Yes, even the kiss. Let's say there was zero reciprocation and she was compltely shocked.

Yes, I am not happy, but we are still in Meh whatever territory.

Step up, move along. Youare overeacting this is a fitness/**** test. Tell her to speak up and you do not appreciate it.

This thread is weird because people are ignoring three major points. 
1) There have been subsequent conversations, not just one, each one has become worse. 
2) She said she liked it, but then said she didn't want it to stop.
3) She wants to keep the memory, which includes a kiss and a two hour train ride without her husband.

So, while idenifyting problems and talking this through, like adults, she makes these claims. This moves from meh to WTF for me. Especially, when she KNOWS this is our 20th anniversary trip.

Sorry, personally, I am not listening to anyone who tells me it isn't that bad after the quotes TRy posted.


----------



## MattMatt

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Net let me explain myself.
> 
> I am using your own words as my basis. i didn't read anything extra into your post.
> 
> Most of us know about **** tests. Normally, I would chalk it up to one if I ignored everything else you posted.
> Dude flirted, she liked it, he made a pass and she did the right thing and told her husband.
> 
> The end.
> 
> Meh whatever.
> Move along.
> 
> Yes, even with the three stories saying whatever about European men and being asked out to a bar.
> 
> Meh whatever. Yes, even the kiss. Let's say there was zero rexiprocation and she was compltely shocked.
> 
> Yes, I am not happy, but we are still in Meh whatever territory.
> 
> Step up, move along. Youare overeacting this is a fitness/**** test. Tell her to speak up and you do not appreciate it.
> 
> This thread is weird because people are ignoring three major points.
> 1) There have been subsequent conversations, not just one, each one has become worse.
> 2) She said she liked it, but then said she didn't want it to stop.
> 3) She wants to keep the memory, which includes a kiss and a two hour train ride without her husband.
> 
> So, while idenifyting problems and talking this through, like adults, she makes these claims. This moves from meh to WTF for me. Especially, when she KNOWS this is our 20th anniversary trip.
> 
> Sorry, personally, I am not listening to anyone who tells me it isn't that bad after the quotes TRy posted.


:iagree:

This has the potential to get very bad indeed. Even worse than it already is.


----------



## ABHale

Dod I read it correctly when you said that the only thing that stopped her from having sex on the train with the guy was the thought of your kids?

It so, your marriage is in trouble. 

She is ready to cheat and the thought of the kids might not stop her next time.


----------



## EleGirl

alte Dame said:


> I read just to the point where you said it was an Italian man.
> 
> Your W's experience is so common on a train in Italy as to be the standard experience for a woman on her own. From the age of 20 up into my 50's, this has happened to me. In my early thirties, I sat in a compartment alone and watched as 4 men peered into the compartment and decided to 'join' me. Soon a man who introduced himself as a policeman, off-duty, squeezed in next to me and explained that he would protect me from the wolves around me. He, of course, hit on me and actually followed me out of the train to confirm that my husband was waiting on the platform for me.
> 
> I can imagine that the first time something like this happens it is flattering and exciting. After a while, though, these men are just pests. They are predictable predators.
> 
> I am in my 60's now. The last time I was on a train in Europe, a congenial older man entered the compartment with a bottle of wine and two glasses. Of course, he offered me some. We talked. He was very charming. Was I flattered? Kind of, but this stuff gets old after a while.
> 
> I don't think this is a marriage crisis. She shouldn't have let him kiss her. I'm assuming that he just did it and she didn't reciprocate. Even so, that has to be addressed. Otherwise, her reaction was relatively normal, in my opinion.
> 
> *
> Also, I think her telling you all the details is her way of saying to the man she loves, 'See? I've still got it! Other men are attracted to me! I'm flattered and want you to take note as my husband. I'm not just a mom and wife. I want you to romance me the way you used to.'
> *
> 
> Just my .02.


Yep, it happens all the time there. The guys actually expect the woman to tell them to get lost. It's a game.

I agree with the bolded part.


----------



## dadstartingover

My wife has been hit on. That is not a big deal. So have I. The big deal for you is how your wife responded to it. Oh boy did that set off a firestorm of emotion in her. She totally forgot what that was like. She's going to need another hit of that sexual heroin real soon. Are you going to be her sexy drug dealer or some other guy? The unfortunate truth is that the "other" guy has to work A LOT less than you do to conjure up the same level of feelings. It's damn near impossible to compete with new fresh meat. That's why it's so important to prevent that from happening in the first place. Your 20-year relationship doesn't bring about the sexy spontaneous animalistic fun that an affair does. You represent comfort. Comfort kills the libido. 

Time to sexy it up. Better get creative.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

dadstartingover said:


> My wife has been hit on. That is not a big deal. So have I. The big deal for you is how your wife responded to it. Oh boy did that set off a firestorm of emotion in her. She totally forgot what that was like. She's going to need another hit of that sexual heroin real soon. Are you going to be her sexy drug dealer or some other guy? The unfortunate truth is that the "other" guy has to work A LOT less than you do to conjure up the same level of feelings. It's damn near impossible to compete with new fresh meat. That's why it's so important to prevent that from happening in the first place. Your 20-year relationship doesn't bring about the sexy spontaneous animalistic fun that an affair does. You represent comfort. Comfort kills the libido.
> 
> Time to sexy it up. Better get creative.


He needs to figure out the reason this time it triggered this response and if it might happen again. Sexing it up isn't going to work if the root issue(s) is not addressed.



netgear64 said:


> She's been hit on or whistled at in years past, and I've just laughed it off because she has. But *this was the first time I felt really hurt mainly because she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.*
> 
> I shower her with affection daily.


----------



## [email protected]

Yeah Netgear, she probably was just flattered, but it wouldn't hurt to keep an eye out.


----------



## Robert22205

Don't accept any blame for her mid life crisis. 

You can't compete with the OM because his words send a shiver down her spine - while the same words/attention from you (after years of marriage,raising kids and paying bills) carry little 'romantic/sexy' intrigue. In order to protect her marriage (kids as well as you) from the slippery slope of temptation she should have shut him down immediately by changing seats with you. 

The validation high is very addictive and can induce good people to do stupid things.
Is she texting or messaging the OM on social media? .... Or perhaps now that she's had a taste (it's like a drug) she may start texting someone else that sends her flattering texts. 

Studies show that texts trigger the same feel good mental response as face to face flattery. And the ease to send 200 texts a day makes it very very addictive and an effective seductive tool for an aggressive man - and quickly can escalate (someone in mid life crisis) from an EA to a PA (within days).


----------



## niceguy47460

He could make a fake account on facebook to test her . see if she starts talking to him thinking he was another guy . see what all she would do .


----------



## wilson

alte Dame said:


> Your W's experience is so common on a train in Italy as to be the standard experience for a woman on her own.


That's the way she should have felt about the situation. "Oh great. A creep-o is trying to hit on me." But instead she seems more to feel like a distinguished and handsome European gentleman was so taken by her charm and beauty that he was overcome with sexual desire. It doesn't sounds like she understands that he tries this on every train trip with any single woman he can find. It would be like a guy thinking that the Hooters waitress really does like him and thinks he's special.


----------



## Nucking Futs

wilson said:


> That's the way she should have felt about the situation. "Oh great. A creep-o is trying to hit on me." But instead she seems more to feel like a distinguished and handsome European gentleman was so taken by her charm and beauty that he was overcome with sexual desire. It doesn't sounds like she understands that he tries this on every train trip with any single woman he can find. *It would be like a guy thinking that the Hooters waitress really does like him and thinks he's special.*


Wait. What? :nerd:


----------



## Adelais

Does your wife realize she was played? That man probably approaches women regularly, and she played right into his hands. When I was single I traveled to other continents, and in many places the men are very forward, especially with women they think might be American. They think American women are loose. Your wife was not "special" she was a fool. To think she is holding onto this memory as if he really loved her, or was even attracted to her is silly of her.

Like Elegirl said, whenever a man came on to me, in a public place, no matter how "romantic" he seemed, I shut it down. That guy who came on to your wife probably laughed his head off all the way home. He was very pleased with his ability to woo a stranger.


----------



## MattMatt

Araucaria said:


> Does your wife realize she was played? That man probably approaches women regularly, and she played right into his hands. When I was single I traveled to other continents, and in many places the men are very forward, especially with women they think might be American. They think American women are loose. Your wife was not "special" she was a fool. To think she is holding onto this memory as if he really loved her, or was even attracted to her is silly of her.
> 
> Like Elegirl said, whenever a man came on to me, in a public place, no matter how "romantic" he seemed, I shut it down. That guy who came on to your wife probably laughed his head off all the way home. He was very pleased with his ability to woo a stranger.


She is lusting after her Italian dream lover and wants to hold that memory forever.

And as for him? _He probably doesn't even remember what she looks like._


----------



## southernplus40

I peruse this sight on a daily basis. I am rarely moved to put my thoughts in writing. The cheater’s script becomes very predictable and the betrayed spouse’s responses, predictable, as well. I have to tell you that having “slept on” it for two days (very restless sleep, if any), I have a few impressions that I would like to share with you concerning your situation. I read and reread your opening comments-your concern that you are “overthinking” your wife’s encounter with the Man on the train. And yes, I think you are overthinking it. I think that you need to find your anger. In my opinion you need to respond to your wife’s total disrespect for you with proportionate consequences. Forget the entirely cerebral response-overthinking-the long heartfelt conversations. Your long face and sadness are not enough consequences for an unforgettable romantic, physical encounter by your wife on any day of your marriage, much less, your 20th wedding anniversary on a train in Europe. 

I understand that your knowledge of the encounter is completely dependent on your wife’s foggy remembrance of the encounter and what she has chosen to share with you, but I believe that even if you don’t choose to share more about the encounter that you might be aware of with the readers of TAM there are points that you personally should consider in formulating your response-and there should be a significant consequential response to your wife’s two hour “one night stand” train trip. Let’s face it, her wish to “never forget” the encounter with another guy is an astounding admission of culpability. You might want to find out when the kiss occurred. It goes without saying that it was not a peck on the cheek or brotherly kiss. It was affirmatively received by your wife. It was an open mouthed intimate kiss that jumped over any boundaries that a marriage of any length should have. He was intimate with your wife, the woman you have loved for over 20 years. And she was totally receptive. Totally in the moment! Did he kiss her without resistance on her part an hour into the trip, so that she spent another hour becoming ever more aroused by his attentions? Was there any other physical contact? A hand on her knee? her thigh? Where were his hands when he kissed her? Was she flushed from her encounter when you reconnected after the train stopped? Was there any delay of note in finding her after the train came to a stop? How did she act that night? Were you intimate? Was it “different”? After all she really had a difficult time trying to regain her composure, per her own words. She really wanted more! She wanted MORE! Timing stopped her. The train came to a stop. You were close. She was still acutely aroused by the possibilities. In a different setting what would have happened? No you! Someplace less public, more secluded. You have a problem! She is a better than an average candidate for an affair especially with the consequences she has experienced thus far. 

I suggest you stop moping and provide the consequences that will make her “romantic memory” a lot less enjoyable and create the right type of context for this memory and any hope of creating another in the future. Show strength! Give yourself permission to be angry! Quit playing pick me! Quit asking yourself what you could do differently! How you could up your game! You have loved her through constant devotion to the family you two have created. I suggest you begin by exposing to everyone you two know that her unforgettable moment in Europe on your anniversary was her near seduction and kiss with a stranger on a train. Share this memory far and wide. Post it along with the pictures of the trip on Facebook for family and friends. It is after all something she doesn’t want to forget but definitely something she needs to examine and respond to. It is a window into her soul and the fantasies that populate it. And because of the kiss I suggest you insist that there be an STI panel done on both of you. When she is offended by this request, ask her if she knows where and on whom his mouth has been recently. Seriously!! It is bull**** on the part of some on this forum to minimize this encounter. She liked it and will look for it again if you don’t respond proportionally. Don’t rush to put this in the past, to return to normal. She needs to know what a crappy thing, a ****ty thing she did. And you need to stop moping and being sad. You did nothing wrong. She needs to do everything possible to make amends. She needs to know that this is a terrible blow to trust between you two and that her wonderful unforgettable memory is crap. 

With this said, these are my general impressions based on general observations with the scant detail that you have chosen to provide; Given the responses and who you have chosen to respond to on this forum I fear that the paucity of detail about the event and your marriage is based on your own hope that there is nothing more to this and that you two should get back to normal. Good luck.


----------



## StillSearching

netgear64 said:


> I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?


No, its a lack of moral compass.
I've been there. I was married 25 years. My wife started the same way.


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> In fact, the other night she confessed to me that she really didn't want to forget that memory because she liked the way she felt. That's what really concerns me.





netgear64 said:


> Any other time, I wouldn't have thought about it and I haven't in the past. But this seemed different, based on her emotional attachment to the situation and to this strange man.


You need to change that from a good memory to a bad memory. Don't let this go, if she has fond memories of consequence free flirting and kissing with another man she _will_ do it again. And no, _you_ feeling bad is not a consequence for _her_.



netgear64 said:


> I feel betrayed that she wasn't quick to reject it. I feel guilty that maybe I had been lacking in some respect in our marriage. I feel like I deserved it, if I was neglecting her emotionally someway.
> 
> She liked something new, different, exciting. I get that. It's hard not to notice a hot woman in public and not take a double-take. But that's as far as I take it, as I don't think a woman would ever hit on me. In fact, I'd be shocked if that had happened to me on that train.
> Maybe I need to work on giving her that new, different, exciting, spontaneity.


You feel betrayed because you were betrayed. You've been married 20 years, there's no way you're going to be new, different, exciting. 



netgear64 said:


> The thing my wife comes back to when we talked, was it just seemed a flattering, exciting and different. At 42 years of age and constantly feeling insecure about her looks (which she has no room to complain about), she felt so sexy in that moment to this guy.
> She told me "she expects me (her husband) to say those things, but to hear it validated by some Italian guy 8 years younger, felt better".
> She's being honest with me and with herself, even though the honesty hurts. She insists that the flirting was one-sided, yet she admits she didn't want it to stop, even though she would tell him to.


What you say doesn't matter as much as what some strange man hitting on her says. Do you feel the disrespect in that statement? You should. Viscerally.



netgear64 said:


> I do feel that as part of a part of the marital vow and union I committed to, continuing to express love for my wife was is inherent as a husband, regardless if some times it's easier to say than others.
> I never thought about the idea of my affection being invalidated by her feeling better from this man. Ouch, that hurt. But, maybe I needed to hear that. That's why I came.


So the stuff you do feels better from some stranger she just met. Do you _really_ think she won't do it again? Based on the things she's telling you, she _will_ cheat on you.


----------



## Adelais

Basically your wife had a one night stand, but in the daytime with no penetration. She is firmly on the path to having a real one night stand though.

Tell her that as far as the guy was concerned she was a *****, and not special. She clearly has no self respect.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

I only read the first post but you have a serious problem on your hands. Your wife has serious boundary issues. Let me tell you my own tale and how boundaries should work.

My wife is stunningly gorgeous. I'm a lucky man. We once got separated on a flight because our flight got canceled and we took what we could get. She was up front, I was way in the back. The man next to her started hitting on her an hour into the flight. Small talk then more flirty and aggressive. She didn't like it and told him so. He continued. She got up, came back and got me. I immediately switched seats with her and told the guy he's lucky I don't pop the emergency hatch and chuck him the F*** off the plane. He sat perfectly still and quietly the rest of the flight and that was that.

That is what your wife should have done. Immediately notified you and shut it down. She didn't and admitted to you that she liked it. What does that tell me? She's going to do it again and who knows where it will lead.


----------



## Lila

First world, pretty people, problems.


----------



## Oldtimer

Netgear, just want to reiterate what’s been stated many times in these forums. Anything physical that occurred between your WW and a POSOM is cheating. They shared a kiss! Unfortunately we don’t know the set up of the train, we’re there secluded, was it open? Were they visible to others? Did he get at least to second base? You have the answers to some of these questions, we don’t. 

Her attitude towards the situation leaves no doubt of the level of her disrespect for you. Again as I’ve stated before, my opinion, but were I in your shoes, I would shock the **** out of her and lay an offer of divorce on the table. In my mind there’s more going on since he made her so hot! Would I be suspicious? You bet your boots I would. 

My opinion for what it’s worth. In saying the above, realize that it’s food for thought and you probably are very different than I in thought process. Whichever, I wish you well in your deliberations and honestly hope I’m wrong.

OT


----------



## MattMatt

Lila said:


> First world, pretty people, problems.


Would you please explain why you thought your snide and somewhat callous remark was appropriate for a marriage and relationship advice forum?

The OP feels, with some good reasons, that his marriage might be facing a potential problem.

If you feel that his problem is a so called "first world" problem then I have news for you. The second and third worlds also have problems with infidelity and relationship issues.


----------



## rugswept

The promising part of this episode was her ability to communicate completely openly and with detail about this. that means the communication in the marriage is very good and at least she does know where the boundaries are. 

the REALLY bad part of this is that she openly stated about how she liked it and really didn't want it to end. that sounds like she really likes the taste of the forbidden fruit. it makes you wonder had this been a secluded environment if she would have gone off with this lecherous man. it's also really bad that she was taken in by a highly experienced hustler who spends his life hitting on attractive women, using tried and true seduction to entice these women into sex. he probably has a very high score rate. 

summary: i'd be very concerned about her. it sounds like she's ready for some outside attention and "excitement" as long as they're hot enough.


----------



## Lila

MattMatt said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> First world, pretty people, problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you please explain why you thought your snide and somewhat callous remark was appropriate for a marriage and relationship advice forum?
> 
> The OP feels, with some good reasons, that his marriage might be facing a potential problem.
> 
> If you feel that his problem is a so called "first world" problem then I have news for you. The second and third worlds also have problems with infidelity and relationship issues.
Click to expand...

Of course they do but OP's case is not one of infidelity. His issue is that someone flirted with his wife and he's upset because she admitted to enjoying it. That's not infidelity. That's her being honest. 

She probably feels just as confused by her reaction to the whole thing as he does. I see no other reason why she would bring something like that up to him. But instead of seeing this as an opportunity to open up the lines of communication with his wife, to understand where her mind is, he's being told she cheated. That's a big leap in my opinion, however everyone is entitled to their feelings and if he feels like this is too big of an issue to overcome then he should divorce her.


----------



## MattMatt

So you just used a gratuitous and dismissive insult against another member just... because? 

Wow.


----------



## Lila

MattMatt said:


> So you just used a gratuitous and dismissive insult against another member just... because?
> 
> Wow.


OP specifically asked

"Am I over-reacting to flirting or is this a genuine red flag for a deeper emotional disconnect in our relationship? Any thoughts or suggestions?"

My comment was basically stating that yes, he is over reacting to the flirting. 
So dismissive, yes. Gratuitous, absolutely not.


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> Of course they do but OP's case is not one of infidelity. His issue is that someone flirted with his wife and he's upset because she admitted to enjoying it. That's not infidelity. That's her being honest.
> 
> She probably feels just as confused by her reaction to the whole thing as he does. I see no other reason why she would bring something like that up to him. But instead of seeing this as an opportunity to open up the lines of communication with his wife, to understand where her mind is, he's being told she cheated. That's a big leap in my opinion, however everyone is entitled to their feelings and if he feels like this is too big of an issue to overcome then he should divorce her.


She said the thought of her kids kept her from going further. The fact she was married and that her husband was in the train didn’t stop her from what she did do. She wanted it to continue. It doesn’t matter how honest she is about it she is ready to cheat.


----------



## Nucking Futs

OP hasn't been here since Friday.


----------



## Lila

ABHale said:


> She said the thought of her kids kept her from going further. The fact she was married and that her husband was in the train didn’t stop her from what she did do. She wanted it to continue. It doesn’t matter how honest she is about it she is ready to cheat.


But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual. 

Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue. It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual.
> 
> Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue. It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.


So it’s op’s fault that she wants to cheat?

At least we know where you stand now. If any female cheats, it’s the husband/boyfriend’s fault. 

Got it.


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> It sounds as though your wife is in the habit of telling you when men pay her attention. Is she trying to make you jealous?
> 
> Why did she even relate all of this to you? Just because she is insecure does not give her license to hurt your feelings. You're her husband - not her girlfriend.
> 
> Look, you aren't Quasimodo and she isn't Venus in the flesh so maybe you can stop building her up and letting her tear you down.


I agree, I second this post.

This was a jab in the ribs, she boldly told you what she wants.....more romance.

What a cheap way of getting it out. 

As others have said, in her own words, if the children and you and the family were not present, she would likely have left with him.

She lives in a Harlequin romance novel world.

She lacks, no, she has no sense of propriety.

At best, she should have moved away from him.
At worst, she should have never told you this.

What she did was worse than bad. 
She did this, then flaunted it verbally it in your face.
Saying it, having no shame?

Doing, saying all, having no shame.
Such a childlike thing to do.

Tactless gall, no less.

She is this child in an adult body.
Watch her, this one.




[THM]- THRD


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual.
> 
> Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue. It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.


There are those that would say she did cheat by allowing it to progress to the point that they kissed.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
You have avoided saying anything meaningful about the physical aspect of your marriage. Don’t get me wrong - your depiction of this event is perfectly clear and easy to understand. But you carefully avoid saying anything related to the sexual part of your marriage. And below you reference passion and then a conversation. 

I have never understood this whole concept of mate guarding. Never. If you aren’t having sex with your wife, someone else eventually will. And the fact that you avoid saying anything about your lack of spark other than - you should be having a one on one conversation instead of watching a movie - is - puzzling. 

The only context in which you reference sexual behavior directly is in relation to this other guy. 




netgear64 said:


> I tend to think (as well as her) that the disconnect is lack of excitement. We're too busy with the day-to-day mundane stuff (work/kids/etc.) that it tends to crowd out time just to have a one-on-one conversation, Because by the time we do in the evening, we're too tired and want to flop in front of a TV or go to bed.
> I'd like to think our marriage is solid. We have always been faithful, been respectful, appreciative and supportive of each other. She has been an excellent mother and I am so grateful to have her. We tell each other we love each other, everyday. We feel we have such a strong relationship already, which is why it's so concerning to me.


----------



## faithfulman

@netgear64 - sorry for your troubles.

Whatever the case, you are not overthinking it. And it is far better to overthink it than to underthink it.

My perspective is this situation might be a big deal or it might not.

But no matter what, your wife's behavior during that two hours on the train was ****ty. 

Her behavior afterwards was ****ty.

She should have defended and respected her marriage. There is nothing special about some scumbag trying to **** you on a train.

The way I would handle this is by administering her some 2x4s. Get angry. The following will be harsh. I will pretend her name is Mary. 

_Mary, there was nothing special or romantic about Romeo pushing up on you on the train.

He saw a significantly older woman who he figured was an easy target and he thought he could get some cheap *****. And you were totally into it. I never thought you were cheap but it appears I was wrong.

A man was blatantly trying to get In your pants while we were on our 20th year anniversary trip, and you didn't do **** to stop it from escalating.

You could have gotten up, you could have found me, you could have told him to **** off, but instead, you even allowed him to kiss you.

Mary, kissing men who are not your husband IS CHEATING. You left my sight for a couple of hours and you cheated. And this is a treasured memory to you? 

Well my memory is that on our 20th anniversary, my wife cheated with a degenerate on a train looking for foolish older women as a source of cheap hole.

That's what you were to him.

You'd better think over who you are and what you want to be. 

Because my wife is not an easy bimbo ripe for the picking by sleazebags. 

Think it over and get back to me._

The point here is to let her know that she was nothing but a perspective screw for this man. Not a romance, not a special connection. Shatter her illusion.

Let her know she just tread on very dangerous ground with you and has damaged your marriage. Scare the **** out of her.

Make her think twice next time she is faced with a choice that resembles this. She should overreact defending the marriage rather than risk your consequences.

Good luck.


----------



## Lila

ABHale said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual.
> 
> Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue. It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.
> 
> 
> 
> So it’s op’s fault that she wants to cheat?
> 
> At least we know where you stand now. If any female cheats, it’s the husband/boyfriend’s fault.
> 
> Got it.
Click to expand...

I never said she cheated therefore there is no way I could be placing the blame on her husband for something I'm claiming never even happened. You said she cheated. 




ABHale said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual.
> 
> Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue. It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.
> 
> 
> 
> There are those that would say she did cheat by allowing it to progress to the point that they kissed.
Click to expand...

The OP stated the guy "moved in and kissed her" but he didn't state if it was on the cheeks, lips, or elsewhere. If it was on the lips he didn't state if it was a quick peck or a make out session. Many have made their own interpretations on what exactly that kiss entailed without actually having the information from the OP. As such, my interpretation having been in a similar situations in Italy is that it was a kiss on the cheek. 

By OP's own admission, he and his wife seem to have a good relationship with very honest dialogue. I'm rather envious of their ability to communicate so openly and to express themselves so candidly. He makes his wife feel safe enough where she can be honest with him. 

There is a reason why his wife told him about this encounter. It could be she's seeking excitement. It could be that they are lacking passion in their love life. Or it could be one of hundred other reasons. He could file this one under "she's a cheater", treat her as such and lose their vulnerability to each other. Or he could delve deeper, ask questions, and see where this trail leads back to. 

Personally, I don't believe in radical honesty or complete transparency in marriage for the very reason the OP is experiencing. Not many people can handle those kinds of truths, myself included. It can be a beautiful thing for couples who are are confident and self aware. It's a death knell to those who are not. My 2 cents.


----------



## netgear64

Hello to all,

I am sorry I have not been able to respond to everyone's thoughts, comments and advice on my situation. I had no idea what to expect and frankly, it's been a little overwhelming here on this site to digest mentally and emotionally for me. I have been busy the past few days. I greatly appreciate it.

While I do not condone what my wife did, I think I must clarify to many here some details regarding some of my earlier statements. The "kiss" to which I refer, was one of which was unwarranted and unexpected. He leaned over to her quickly while she was looking out the window and kissed her on the cheek. She did not see it coming. However, rather than make a big scene about it and leave (as I would've hoped), she calmly said, 'don't do that'.

Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.

All the while between his affectionate words and actions (and her verbal refusals back to him), she confesses that her thoughts were one of difficulty. She says that it was hard to say no because she wanted it to continue, even though she didn't either. It confused her emotions. She was torn because she loved the romance, the affection, the spontaneity, the different man. Something I can't give her. 

I don't agree with it being labeled "infidelity". I think that's a bit of an extreme label for this case. I think this is a case of extreme flattery that took her emotions somewhere she had not gone before. I can say our communication has exponentially increased since this happened. We have been able to talk about our feelings in a way unlike any other. Someone had posed a question about our sex life, and yes while I may feel it's a bit lacking or at least has room for improvement, I don't want to put any undue pressure on her, as I know this is an area she has little interest anyways, always has. 

We have made arrangements to speak with two trusted friends, who have successful marriages themselves, just to get some feedback from them. We know we can get through this and I believe with continued support of each other and open communication, this will be a thing of the past.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Many affairs begin just like that situation. Pursuit and finally giving in. This time it was a train and never-see-the-guy again.

However, by allowing temptation to continue over and over again, if this was a co-worker situation, or a "good friend" situation, I wonder if you would have ever been told, or how it would have played out over weeks/months rather than a few hours on a train.

Why did she tell you at all? Is she trying to send you a message? The guy was a creep who kept pushing on a woman who repeatedly said "no" (emphatically if you believe your wife in that aspect). What exactly was attractive about that creep? Does she find it attractive when a guy pushes that hard despite being told emphatically "no"?


----------



## Mr.Married

Sounds like ya'll have a handle on the situation. 

I can understand your discomfort .... 

Broken trust or the threat there of can be tough.

Ya'll are going to be fine.

Just remember: Trust but verify is a good thing.


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am sorry I have not been able to respond to everyone's thoughts, comments and advice on my situation. I had no idea what to expect and frankly, it's been a little overwhelming here on this site to digest mentally and emotionally for me. I have been busy the past few days. I greatly appreciate it.
> 
> While I do not condone what my wife did, I think I must clarify to many here some details regarding some of my earlier statements. The "kiss" to which I refer, was one of which was unwarranted and unexpected. He leaned over to her quickly while she was looking out the window and kissed her on the cheek. She did not see it coming. However, rather than make a big scene about it and leave (as I would've hoped), she calmly said, 'don't do that'.
> 
> Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.
> 
> All the while between his affectionate words and actions (and her verbal refusals back to him), she confesses that her thoughts were one of difficulty. She says that it was hard to say no because she wanted it to continue, even though she didn't either. It confused her emotions. She was torn because she loved the romance, the affection, the spontaneity, the different man. Something I can't give her.
> 
> *I don't agree with it being labeled "infidelity".* I think that's a bit of an extreme label for this case. I think this is a case of extreme flattery that took her emotions somewhere she had not gone before. I can say our communication has exponentially increased since this happened. We have been able to talk about our feelings in a way unlike any other. Someone had posed a question about our sex life, and yes while I may feel it's a bit lacking or at least has room for improvement, I don't want to put any undue pressure on her, as I know this is an area she has little interest anyways, always has.
> 
> We have made arrangements to speak with two trusted friends, who have successful marriages themselves, just to get some feedback from them. We know we can get through this and I believe with continued support of each other and open communication, this will be a thing of the past.


Would you consider it fidelity? Particularly her reactions?

You really need to turn her memory of this incident negative.


----------



## Robert22205

Did your wife give him her cell phone number?
Are they in contact on social media?

Do you have access to your wife's cell phone history of calls and texts?


----------



## Blondilocks

Nucking Futs said:


> Would you consider it fidelity? Particularly her reactions?
> 
> You really need to turn her memory of this incident negative.


Reading up on 'mammoni' and 'mammismo' should do the trick.


----------



## faithfulman

netgear64 said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am sorry I have not been able to respond to everyone's thoughts, comments and advice on my situation. I had no idea what to expect and frankly, it's been a little overwhelming here on this site to digest mentally and emotionally for me. I have been busy the past few days. I greatly appreciate it.
> 
> While I do not condone what my wife did, I think I must clarify to many here some details regarding some of my earlier statements. The "kiss" to which I refer, was one of which was unwarranted and unexpected. He leaned over to her quickly while she was looking out the window and kissed her on the cheek. She did not see it coming. However, rather than make a big scene about it and leave (as I would've hoped), she calmly said, 'don't do that'.
> 
> Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.
> 
> All the while between his affectionate words and actions (and her verbal refusals back to him), she confesses that her thoughts were one of difficulty. She says that it was hard to say no because she wanted it to continue, even though she didn't either. It confused her emotions. She was torn because she loved the romance, the affection, the spontaneity, the different man. Something I can't give her.
> 
> I don't agree with it being labeled "infidelity". I think that's a bit of an extreme label for this case. I think this is a case of extreme flattery that took her emotions somewhere she had not gone before. I can say our communication has exponentially increased since this happened. We have been able to talk about our feelings in a way unlike any other. Someone had posed a question about our sex life, and yes while I may feel it's a bit lacking or at least has room for improvement, I don't want to put any undue pressure on her, as I know this is an area she has little interest anyways, always has.
> 
> We have made arrangements to speak with two trusted friends, who have successful marriages themselves, just to get some feedback from them. We know we can get through this and I believe with continued support of each other and open communication, this will be a thing of the past.


Well I guess maybe you are overthinking it! 

Sure wish you had written this sooner!

In any case her reaction was weak, her boundaries were weak, and her statements expressing her feelings afterwards were troublesome. 

Your job now is.to.turn that special memory into a ****ty one, and to let her know she allowed your boundaries to be crossed and you will not stand for that ****. 

Good luck.


----------



## SunCMars

ABHale said:


> There are those that would say she did cheat by allowing it to progress to the point that they kissed.


And she said she loved it, every minute of the 'woke' happening. And she never wants to forget about it. She said it with pride, with a grin and with longing.

Huh?

WTF?

Wake up, folks!

She said she might have left with him (certainly desired to).... were things different.

OK, one can obviously {fantasize and think} that, but one should *never repeat that {dizzily and happily} to your spouse*.

This is a serious revelation about her state of mind.






[THM]- King Brian


----------



## SunCMars

This thread is an eye opener to me.

Some TAM posters actually have defended her. Ladies, too.

Defended her because she was honest and open.

OK, she is an honest flake!

If I were her spouse I would be afraid to let her out of my sight!





[THM]- THRD


----------



## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> It confused her emotions. She was torn because she loved the romance, the affection, the spontaneity, the different man. Something I can't give her.


It then begs the question, if it is something you can not give her then what? Are you to continually reinvent yourself? It seems to be a fantasy romance novel that became a reality for your W. IMO, your W should have shut it down immediately and changed seats. Why she did not is for your W to answer. Apparently she did, it was weak and I'm boundary free.


----------



## Lostinthought61

so if the reversal was to occur and you were the one being hit on and some women kiss you she would not be upset...BS


----------



## SunCMars

> she confessed that night that a hot guy was flirting with her the whole time on the train, wanted to take her with him, wanted to do stuff on the train with her, even leaned in and kissed her. She told me she said no, but that *it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop either*. She said she was flattered by a guy 8 years younger hitting on her and it made her feel good. *She also said that she didn't want to say no, but said what helped her was our two kids, family and the fact we were on our 20th anniversary vacation*.
> 
> She's been hit on or whistled at in years past, and I've just laughed it off because she has. But this was the first time I felt really hurt mainly because she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.


I had to return to the pain....
With ladies defending her....

Oh my god!

Where are we now, where have we gone?
..............................................................................................

I understand the part of being flattered. A handsome younger man doing a 'very' good job of wooing her.

They just met. they are total strangers. He wanted to score, there is absolutely no depth of feelings here.

The chemistry was perfect, she would have taken the plunge, did a ONS in different circumstances.

I get it, I do. 

But, why flaunt this in your loyal husbands face?

She was honest and open.

Honestly and openly crass and cruel.

Did he deserve this?
Why was it necessary for him to know?

She is still smitten with the whole affair. 
Yes, a two hour affair, not a ONS, rather a one day, no, two hour, sitting not standing affair.
Ended with a kiss.

Especially, on a very special event, their 20th anniversary with family members present.
She spoiled the whole event after this bombshell of a confession.

Fantasies are fantasies, she was in the real world here.
Hear?

What a mess.

Just Sayin'





[THM]- THRD


----------



## SunCMars

You did it.

I am pissed.


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> Reading up on 'mammoni' and 'mammismo' should do the trick.


Interesting analogy.

However, this guy wanted to 'do her' in the train.

The hand on her thigh was evident of this. He would have fingered her in a minute.

....................................................................................................................

I get the words, the compliments, all that. Who would not enjoy that?


But, when he started to grope her and kiss her, he looked at her as a piece of meat, not Momma's pasta.

While her hands pushed him away, her mind stuck around for more words, discounting the incessant pawing.

She obviously wanted him badly. 

And she glibly admitted it to her husband. ----> This is my major beef. 





[THM]- THRD


----------



## ABHale

netgear64 said:


> Hello to all,
> 
> I am sorry I have not been able to respond to everyone's thoughts, comments and advice on my situation. I had no idea what to expect and frankly, it's been a little overwhelming here on this site to digest mentally and emotionally for me. I have been busy the past few days. I greatly appreciate it.
> 
> While I do not condone what my wife did, I think I must clarify to many here some details regarding some of my earlier statements. The "kiss" to which I refer, was one of which was unwarranted and unexpected. He leaned over to her quickly while she was looking out the window and kissed her on the cheek. She did not see it coming. However, rather than make a big scene about it and leave (as I would've hoped), she calmly said, 'don't do that'.
> 
> Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.
> 
> All the while between his affectionate words and actions (and her verbal refusals back to him), she confesses that her thoughts were one of difficulty. She says that it was hard to say no because she wanted it to continue, even though she didn't either. It confused her emotions. She was torn because she loved the romance, the affection, the spontaneity, the different man. Something I can't give her.
> 
> I don't agree with it being labeled "infidelity". I think that's a bit of an extreme label for this case. I think this is a case of extreme flattery that took her emotions somewhere she had not gone before. I can say our communication has exponentially increased since this happened. We have been able to talk about our feelings in a way unlike any other. Someone had posed a question about our sex life, and yes while I may feel it's a bit lacking or at least has room for improvement, I don't want to put any undue pressure on her, as I know this is an area she has little interest anyways, always has.
> 
> We have made arrangements to speak with two trusted friends, who have successful marriages themselves, just to get some feedback from them. We know we can get through this and I believe with continued support of each other and open communication, this will be a thing of the past.


This was not physically cheating on you but it was emotional cheating. 

She wanted it to continue. 

She stayed with the POS which allowed him to keep touching her instead of moving away or telling the POS to move. 

She stay and allowed it because she liked it. The thought of your kids, not you, kept her from going further. 

So does your wife have any built-up resentment toward you ?


----------



## ABHale

Have you asked your wife if she’s ever done this before. Telling a guy no while the rest for screams yes


----------



## Adelais

Lila said:


> First world, pretty people, problems.


Not trying to fight with you Lila, but trying to inform you based on my personal experience. This poster's problem is one that occurs commonly in 2nd and 3rd world countries, particularly Latin American countries. Big and small infidelities are rampant, expected, accepted, in those countries. Most of the television shows are rampant with infidelity, both male and female because it is part of the culture. 

Please don't anyone pipe up that I'm a racist or xenophobe. Some of my ancestory is from one of those countries, as well as a "romantic" country in Europe where infidelities/serious flirting is also common.


----------



## wilson

netgear64 said:


> He leaned over to her quickly while she was looking out the window and kissed her on the cheek. She did not see it coming. However, rather than make a big scene about it and leave (as I would've hoped), she calmly said, 'don't do that'.
> 
> Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.


I wonder at what point she would have "made a scene". How much farther could he have gone before she actually got up and left? That might be interesting to ask her. Clearly, her saying "don't do that" didn't deter him at all since things were ramping up. 

Another thing to keep in mind is she likely would have made a scene much earlier if he was ugly. If she wasn't attracted to him, she likely would have shut him down immediately.


----------



## faithfulman

wilson said:


> I wonder at what point she would have "made a scene". How much farther could he have gone before she actually got up and left? That might be interesting to ask her. *Clearly, her saying "don't do that" didn't deter him at all since things were ramping up.*
> 
> Another thing to keep in mind is she likely would have made a scene much earlier if he was ugly. If she wasn't attracted to him, she likely would have shut him down immediately.


"Don't do that" + a shy giggle and a smile won't discourage a man who thinks he is making progress.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
I am kind of skeptical about this planned talk with other couples. If - on an anonymous forum - you avoid any meaningful discussion of your physical/romantic/sexual dynamic, I seriously question that you are going to do that with close friends. 

The reason that N2 didn’t get up and look for a new seat - or raise her voice and demand that he leave and then call you on your cell to let you know she had an empty seat next to her - lies in your absolute silence on the dynamic between you. 

In a healthy marriage - the H would say: I was mainly surprised because we were connecting (having sex) pretty much daily on our vacation, so I just didn’t see this coming. 

In a sexually broken marriage where honesty is yet paramount the H says to his W: We can either work to regain some passion or we can accept that this marriage will likely end in infidelity. 

The ego will fight harder to protect itself than almost any other thing. Attempting to blame tv watching for the demise of intimacy is standard operating procedure for level one ego protection. …

Fixation on this 2 hour window is a less direct (this is level 2 ego protection, as it is pure misdirection) way of putting all the blame for a sexually empty marriage on N2. Using friends to shame her - is level 3. 

You can protect your marriage or your ego. But not both. 





ABHale said:


> This was not physically cheating on you but it was emotional cheating.
> 
> She wanted it to continue.
> 
> She stayed with the POS which allowed him to keep touching her instead of moving away or telling the POS to move.
> 
> She stay and allowed it because she liked it. The thought of your kids, not you, kept her from going further.
> 
> So does your wife have any built-up resentment toward you ?


----------



## turnera

netgear64 said:


> I didn't think I was. But at the same time, I'm looking for more of a constructive approach to this situation, which is why I am here. Is there something that happens at 20 years of marriage that tells one to "check-out" emotionally? What specific constructive advice can help, is it lack of passion, desire, spark, intimacy, etc.?


Many, if not most, people live their lives unaware of the psychological underpinnings of what makes a relationship work. They just 'live' it.And half of them end up divorced because that spark is gone and they just assume that means they no longer love each other. 

This is a psychological/chemical issue, not a love issue. She's telling you - and thank god she is honest with you, right? - that she's confused cos she's not getting that spark from you so she assumes that means she might want someone else. 

Wrong.

What it means is that your marriage is stale because you have to WORK at a marriage. It's no different from working the same job for 30 years; it's fun and exciting, then routine, and then even perhaps dreaded cos there's nothing to look forward to.

Do this: Get the book _His Needs Her Needs_ and start reading it together, one chapter each night. Set aside time to talk about what you learn in it, and compare your feelings with each other. Find out what's missing, what could be better, what you each wish you had that would make you wake up and smile each morning in anticipation.

And then vow to become that person who SUPPLIES those things to your partner. If you do that (and avoid the Love Busters, which you're read about in HNHN), she'll get the goosebumps from you again, and vice versa.


----------



## turnera

SunCMars said:


> She obviously wanted him badly.


Badly? Seriously?

She was enjoying the attention, she was enjoying the butterflies she hadn't felt in 20 years. It's basic psychology. She enjoyed the shot of adrenaline. Doesn't make her a ****.


----------



## Lila

Araucaria said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> First world, pretty people, problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Not trying to fight with you Lila, but trying to inform you based on my personal experience. This poster's problem is one that occurs commonly in 2nd and 3rd world countries, particularly Latin American countries. Big and small infidelities are rampant, expected, accepted, in those countries. Most of the television shows are rampant with infidelity, both male and female because it is part of the culture.
> 
> Please don't anyone pipe up that I'm a racist or xenophobe. Some of my ancestory is from one of those countries, as well as a "romantic" country in Europe where infidelities/serious flirting is also common.
Click to expand...

I am Latina so I know all about the rampant infidelity in 2nd and 3rd world countries. OP's problem is not one of infidelity. It's one where his wife enjoyed some uninvited flirtatious behavior by a younger man. If it had been infidelity, I assure you I'd be the first one to call her out on it.


----------



## MEM2020

If I am dying of dehydration in the ****ing dessert and you offer me your canteen, I am not going to ask if you have any communicable diseases. I am going to grab your canteen and start drinking. 

Fixation on a standard human response to passion - in a passionless marriage seems - odd. Unfair. More importantly unrealistic.







wilson said:


> I wonder at what point she would have "made a scene". How much farther could he have gone before she actually got up and left? That might be interesting to ask her. Clearly, her saying "don't do that" didn't deter him at all since things were ramping up.
> 
> Another thing to keep in mind is she likely would have made a scene much earlier if he was ugly. If she wasn't attracted to him, she likely would have shut him down immediately.


----------



## manfromlamancha

OK firstly, "Don't do that" to an Italian wanna be Lothario actually means "Ooh aah, just a little bit more".

She probably realised that after the first few "Don't do that"s.

Next, never leave your wife alone in Italy. Especially in the south - in Naples, for example, Lotharism borders on statutory rape at times. And they tend to get away with it.

No matter how much she longed for "it", the standard response should have been "WTF! How dare you touch me! Guard, guard, help!" or even "OP, OP help" or even a quick punch or knee to the groin. I have seen this happen. By the way, Italian men do not tend to actually fight - there is a lot of hand waving, excited tones and gestures, maybe the odd push here and there. Let a good old Glaswegian loose in there and there would be cracked skulls etc.!!!

So anything short of this was her encouraging him. And she kind of admitted this. So lets not offer any reasons as to why she did it and it was kind of OK given her circumstances. No matter how stale her marriage, it was bad behaviour on her part.

Now on to why she told her husband (the OP) about it. Lots of speculation which includes:



She wanted him to know that she is still desirable and has still got it.


She was genuinely worried about her liking it and fearing she may stray next time.


She wants to make contact with this or other future possible Lotharios and maybe take things further and is preparing him for this.


She thought she was being honest and that absolved her of any guilt.


She was just weak, dumb and cruel.


Who knows? Maybe a bit of each of the above.


Whatever the reason, the thing to focus on is what you do next about this. 



Do you lay down firm boundaries with a firm warning while reminding her that you still love her and find her attractive. 


Do you police her (even if it is just trust but verify). 


Do you get more romantic with her and see if the two of you (not just her) still have the spark.



Probably all of the above. The thing you do not do is ignore it, justify it, take the blame for it, make excuses for your wife and bury your head in the sand!


----------



## SunCMars

> Her thoughts indicated she wanted him badly





turnera said:


> Badly? Seriously?
> 
> She was enjoying the attention, she was enjoying the butterflies she hadn't felt in 20 years. It's basic psychology. She enjoyed the shot of adrenaline. Doesn't make her a ****.


****?

No, it makes her vulnerable and childish.

By the way, thank you for sticking to your thoughts and principles on this, in that she was not 'too' bad in her behavior.

That she is lovesick, and that she yearns attention. Fair enough up to the point of sharing this with her 'man'.

Yes, it is Psychology 101.

And yes, I know you have some of the same needs and desires as her, some unmet for years. This is obvious.

Again, my beef is her telling her husband that she enjoyed it and did not want it end.

.................................................................

Urrk, change studio sets:


If your husband sat on a train or a bus,and the women next to him tried to seduce him, with her hands on his thighs and then kissed him, you would be angry, hurt.....of course.

But, when you asked why he did not change seats, he then said he rather enjoyed it....
And the only reason that he did not go further was because of the family? Not you?

Ah, you would be beside yourself in anger and bewilderment. 

After all, is it not Psychology 101 that an older man would also enjoy the interest and the shot of adrenaline when an attractive younger woman wanted to jump his bones?

.........................................................................................................................................

*She should have kept her mouth shut about the incident and tried to peak her husbands romantic side some other way.*

She hurt him needlessly. 
He is not a bad spouse, at all.
He did not need to be dik whipped.

She handled the train situation improperly, she acted not the proper lady. 
The stranger groped her, he kissed her, and yet she was not furious with this, this, this, criminal!

She 'was' fired up from the adrenaline, she is not a sl*t! No.
She did become morally paralyzed, and mentally conflicted
She did act poorly.

It is easy to explain away bad behavior using psychology and bio-chemistry, even to explain away murder.
For example, that damn adrenaline forced him to shoot the other man.

*Blame seeks a home, excuses hide the reason behind and the source of the bloody wet spot.*

Justice can never be served when the guilty are excused and shielded by chemicals. 
Forgive? Sure.
Forget? Never.

...............................................................................................................

*Sorry, you are wrong and we are no longer friends.*





[THM]- Lilith McGarvey


----------



## MEM2020

I half agree with this advice. Yes he ought to get the book HNHN, AND he needs to read it cover to cover by himself and privately. 

He needs to demonstrate some ****ing autonomy. Passion comes from SOME AMOUNT OF FULLY INDEPENDENT ACTION WITHOUT ASKING MOMMY TO HOLD YOUR ****ING HAND AND GIVE YOU HER APPROVAL AND EMOTIONAL SUPPORT ALONG THE WAY. 

I am NOT suggesting that he flirt with the neighbors 18 year old daughter to demonstrate his independence. Nor that he start getting lap dances. 

Just observing that it is impossible to tickle yourself because being tickled is contingent on uncertainty. And it is impossible to sustain passion while needing / demanding constant partner approval. 

This is where people get derailed. 

And that book probably doesn’t address boredom properly. Boredom is partly caused by predictability. 






turnera said:


> Many, if not most, people live their lives unaware of the psychological underpinnings of what makes a relationship work. They just 'live' it.And half of them end up divorced because that spark is gone and they just assume that means they no longer love each other.
> 
> This is a psychological/chemical issue, not a love issue. She's telling you - and thank god she is honest with you, right? - that she's confused cos she's not getting that spark from you so she assumes that means she might want someone else.
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> What it means is that your marriage is stale because you have to WORK at a marriage. It's no different from working the same job for 30 years; it's fun and exciting, then routine, and then even perhaps dreaded cos there's nothing to look forward to.
> 
> Do this: Get the book _His Needs Her Needs_ and start reading it together, one chapter each night. Set aside time to talk about what you learn in it, and compare your feelings with each other. Find out what's missing, what could be better, what you each wish you had that would make you wake up and smile each morning in anticipation.
> 
> And then vow to become that person who SUPPLIES those things to your partner. If you do that (and avoid the Love Busters, which you're read about in HNHN), she'll get the goosebumps from you again, and vice versa.


----------



## Blondilocks

SunCMars said:


> Interesting analogy.
> 
> However, this guy wanted to 'do her' in the train.
> 
> The hand on her thigh was evident of this. He would have fingered her in a minute.
> 
> ....................................................................................................................
> 
> I get the words, the compliments, all that. Who would not enjoy that?
> 
> 
> But, when he started to grope her and kiss her, he looked at her as a piece of meat, not Momma's pasta.
> 
> While her hands pushed him away, her mind stuck around for more words, discounting the incessant pawing.
> 
> She obviously wanted him badly.
> 
> And she glibly admitted it to her husband. ----> This is my major beef.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- THRD


A little too crude, there, boyo.

It seems the seducing of strange ladies is a pastime in Italy. If the OP wants to change the oh-so-fond memory his wife has of the encounter, then he can educate her on how two-thirds of Italian men in that age bracket still live with their mamas. US women don't cotton to mama's boys - even Italian women aren't too fond of them. Hell, even their fathers don't like it. That should put the encounter into proper prospective for her and produce an audible 'ick'.

I sincerely hope the OP impresses on his wife how his memories of their 20th anniversary are now irrevocably tainted by her special memory.

I agree with Mem on not involving friends in this situation because...

1) You don't truly know the state of their marriages - you only know what they want you to know.

2) This is a problem between you and your wife and needs to be solved by you both. Sharing it with others will only make resolving it more difficult and may strain the friendships.

I, also, don't agree that this is all on the OP to solve by getting all romantical and paying heed to her obvious thirst for romance. It takes two to tango and it's going to take the both of them to revisit their routines and create that excitement she seems to relish.

Frankly, I think she has **** for brains; but, that's neither here nor there.


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> I am Latina so I know all about the rampant infidelity in 2nd and 3rd world countries. OP's problem is not one of infidelity. It's one where his wife enjoyed some uninvited flirtatious behavior by a younger man. If it had been infidelity, I assure you I'd be the first one to call her out on it.


So you’re saying it’s OK for another man to put his hands on his wife?


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> Badly? Seriously?
> 
> She was enjoying the attention, she was enjoying the butterflies she hadn't felt in 20 years. It's basic psychology. She enjoyed the shot of adrenaline. Doesn't make her a ****.


 So now the OP hasn’t given his wife butterflies since they got married! The poor OP can’t do anything right


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> Badly? Seriously?
> 
> She was enjoying the attention, she was enjoying the butterflies she hadn't felt in 20 years. It's basic psychology. She enjoyed the shot of adrenaline. Doesn't make her a ****.


As to the last part of your statement. A little harmless flirting no, letting another man continuously put his hands on her possibly.


----------



## ABHale

I think those defending his wife’s position for forgetting one thing. 

She wanted it to go further. 

She wanted to make out with him. 

She didn’t want to tell him to stop. 

So yes your marriage is in crisis unless you’re are OK with sharing your wife with other men in one form or another.


----------



## Lila

ABHale said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am Latina so I know all about the rampant infidelity in 2nd and 3rd world countries. OP's problem is not one of infidelity. It's one where his wife enjoyed some uninvited flirtatious behavior by a younger man. If it had been infidelity, I assure you I'd be the first one to call her out on it.
> 
> 
> 
> So you’re saying it’s OK for another man to put his hands on his wife?
Click to expand...

We get it @ABHale. You think the OP's wife cheated. You have your opinion. I have mine. Instead of arguing with me and everyone who's opinion you disagree with, state your opinion to the OP and let the rest of us state ours. Let him decide which path to choose moving forward. 

You can start another thread if you wish to argue whether touching someone's leg or getting kissed on the cheek is cheating behavior.


----------



## turnera

SunCMars said:


> Again, my beef is her telling her husband that she enjoyed it and did not want it end.


And I celebrate her feeling of safety in her husband to tell him the truth about how she felt. He should be glad of that. Had she not, she'd have gone home wondering what she was missing and...you know how that ends. Instead, they are by his words communicating more than ever.



> But, when you asked why he did not change seats, he then said he rather enjoyed it....And the only reason that he did not go further was because of the family? Not you?
> 
> Ah, you would be beside yourself in anger and bewilderment.


No, my psychology-guided mind would have immediately wondered why he felt that way and what he was needing/missing in his own marriage.



> She should have kept her mouth shut about the incident and tried to peak her husbands romantic side some other way.


That's assuming she has the psychological intelligence to understand that she could/should do this; most humans do not. He is actually lucky that she experienced this so that they can now take their marriage to the next level and have it be so fulfilling that the next time someone approaches EITHER of them, their instinct will be to laugh and say 'Nah, I'm good; I have all I want at home.'

btw, you seem inordinately tweaked by this particular situation. May want to ask yourself why.


----------



## MEM2020

The ONLY two things that matter about the train encounter are:
- Whether N2 exchanged contact info with the man (not a chance, if she had done so, she wouldn’t have confessed about the encounter)
- Whether or not Netgear chooses to accept that you can kill a marriage via boredom. It takes a long time, but boredom will eventually kill love





ABHale said:


> I think those defending his wife’s position for forgetting one thing.
> 
> She wanted it to go further.
> 
> She wanted to make out with him.
> 
> She didn’t want to tell him to stop.
> 
> So yes your marriage is in crisis unless you’re are OK with sharing your wife with other men.


----------



## MEM2020

Yes to all this. 

She wants this from H. She wants edge. And some level of unpredictability. 

That said, the least ballsy thing he can do is ask her to read a book together. 




turnera said:


> And I celebrate her feeling of safety in her husband to tell him the truth about how she felt. He should be glad of that. Had she not, she'd have gone home wondering what she was missing and...you know how that ends. Instead, they are by his words communicating more than ever.
> 
> No, my psychology-guided mind would have immediately wondered why he felt that way and what he was needing/missing in his own marriage.
> 
> That's assuming she has the psychological intelligence to understand that she could/should do this; most humans do not. He is actually lucky that she experienced this so that they can now take their marriage to the next level and have it be so fulfilling that the next time someone approaches EITHER of them, their instinct will be to laugh and say 'Nah, I'm good; I have all I want at home.'
> 
> btw, you seem inordinately tweaked by this particular situation. May want to ask yourself why.


----------



## SunCMars

Blondilocks said:


> A little too crude, there, boyo.
> 
> It seems the seducing of strange ladies is a past time in Italy. If the OP wants to change the oh-so-fond memory his wife has of the encounter, then he can educate her on how two-thirds of Italian men in that age bracket still live with their mamas. US women don't cotton to mama's boys - even Italian women aren't too fond of them. Hell, even their fathers don't like it. That should put the encounter into proper prospective for her and produce an audible 'ick'.
> 
> I sincerely hope the OP impresses on his wife how his memories of their 20th anniversary are now irrevocably tainted by her special memory.
> 
> I agree with Mem on not involving friends in this situation because...
> 
> 1) You don't truly know the state of their marriages - you only know what they want you to know.
> 
> 2) This is a problem between you and your wife and needs to be solved by you both. Sharing it with others will only make resolving it more difficult and may strain the friendships.
> 
> I, also, don't agree that this is all on the OP to solve by getting all romantical and paying heed to her obvious thirst for romance. It takes two to tango and it's going to take the both of them to revisit their routines and create that excitement she seems to relish.
> 
> Frankly, I think she has **** for brains; but, that's neither here nor there.



:iagree:

And that Ma'am, is why Red Dog loves you!

I agree with all of this including my penchant to crudely dirty the water. 

Ah, yet have I not, greatly improved in the last few months. 

Less caffeine? Nope.

I ratherish have some difficulty in not employing some dishabille riposte' when engaging some mortals.

Oh, thank you! 
This, from such a younger lady, and she calling me boyo. :grin2:



[THM]- THRD


----------



## SunCMars

turnera said:


> And I celebrate her feeling of safety in her husband to tell him the truth about how she felt. He should be glad of that. Had she not, she'd have gone home wondering what she was missing and...you know how that ends. Instead, they are by his words communicating more than ever.
> 
> No, my psychology-guided mind would have immediately wondered why he felt that way and what he was needing/missing in his own marriage.
> 
> That's assuming she has the psychological intelligence to understand that she could/should do this; most humans do not. He is actually lucky that she experienced this so that they can now take their marriage to the next level and have it be so fulfilling that the next time someone approaches EITHER of them, their instinct will be to laugh and say 'Nah, I'm good; I have all I want at home.'
> 
> btw, you seem inordinately tweaked by this particular situation. May want to ask yourself why.


You are incredibly, uh, calm.

Kudos.

I am incredibly needing calm, and cannot find it in my little sphere. 
I have tried to needle you....and others here...for years..... and have failed!

I even flew over your house, up there in Ontario. I waved at you when you were hanging your under garments on the clothes line.
You looked up, saw me, never waved, never blinked an eye.

You win by default.

My fault for not finding your funny bone.
Sigh....

You are OK.





[THM]- The Host, RD.


----------



## SunCMars

@netgear64

Please come back after one year, or earlier, if you have an update (good or bad).

I am extremely interested on how your marriage will unfold over the next few months, a year, more years.

I sincerely wish the best for you and your wife.





[THM]- THRD


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> We get it @ABHale. You think the OP's wife cheated. You have your opinion. I have mine. Instead of arguing with me and everyone who's opinion you disagree with, state your opinion to the OP and let the rest of us state ours. Let him decide which path to choose moving forward.
> 
> You can start another thread if you wish to argue whether touching someone's leg or getting kissed on the cheek is cheating behavior.


I just disagree with you bashing the OP for being upset with his wife’s actions and what she said she wanted to do. 

This might be normal behavior for you and the people you know this is not normal behavior for the people I know.


----------



## turnera

MEM2020 said:


> Yes to all this.
> 
> She wants this from H. She wants edge. And some level of unpredictability.
> 
> That said, the least ballsy thing he can do is ask her to read a book together.


I agree they can do a ton more. I just think every family should read HNHN at some point to understand the psychology of why marriages work or don't. It's a short book. 

OP, for some edge, find the book 52 Invitations for Grrrrrreat Sex.


----------



## Robert22205

With respect to getting feedback from friends. 

Did your friends experience similar issues: extended flirting, emotional or physical affairs? 
It's fine to chat with them but it's no substitute for a professional trained to resolve/fix issues.

Why? Because your friends will be biased towards keeping the peace (forgiving & forgetting vs fixing your wife's thinking)

You also run the risk of them siding with her or rug sweeping or minimizing.


----------



## Robert22205

It's normal to minimize and rug sweep or ask someone else how you're supposed to feel.

At the end of the day. 

Knowing how your wife behaved on the train with a strange man (and that she now cherishes the memory): Do you feel safe that she has the coping skills to resist temptation going forward?

Unfortunately it's not something you can put to a vote. The final decision is entirely up to you. And your wife either respects it and fixes herself - or not. 

I wish you both well.


----------



## Lila

ABHale said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> We get it @ABHale. You think the OP's wife cheated. You have your opinion. I have mine. Instead of arguing with me and everyone who's opinion you disagree with, state your opinion to the OP and let the rest of us state ours. Let him decide which path to choose moving forward.
> 
> You can start another thread if you wish to argue whether touching someone's leg or getting kissed on the cheek is cheating behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> I just disagree with you bashing the OP for being upset with his wife’s actions and what she said she wanted to do.
> 
> This might be normal behavior for you and the people you know this is not normal behavior for the people I know.
Click to expand...

Where ever did I bash the OP? I actually told him I'm envious of his openness with his wife!!!

He's entitled to have feelings about this situation. What I disagree with is treating this as infidelity. I am encouraging him to talk to his wife and understand why she felt what she felt.


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> Where ever did I bash the OP? I actually told him I'm envious of his openness with his wife!!!
> 
> He's entitled to have feelings about this situation. What I disagree with is treating this as infidelity. I am encouraging him to talk to his wife and understand why she felt what she felt.


But she didn't cheat. She had her reasons for stopping it before it went too far and she did stop it. She then went ahead and communicated those intentions to her spouse. Why she did that, I don't know, but she nevertheless did. This is not a case of infidelity. This is a "near-miss"; one that was reported. She could have kept her mouth shut and kept on living life as usual. 

Hopefully OP and wife can continue to have open dialogue.* It may reveal resentments she's been harboring.*


You put her actions on Net by your statement.


----------



## scaredlion

Personally I would not even come close to classifying this as infidelity. Just about everyone, when they reach a certain age, will get a charge out of being flirted with by a much younger person of the opposite sex. Many are going to say, "oh no not me" but at least 90% of you will be lying. I agree that the liberty he took with his hands was inappropriate and should have been shut down. The fact she told her husband everything showed she wasn't trying to hide anything. Where there is honesty, trust, and open communication between spouses usually, there is no infidelity. I do wish you well.


----------



## turnera

scaredlion said:


> Personally I would not even come close to classifying this as infidelity. Just about everyone, when they reach a certain age, will get a charge out of being flirted with by a much younger person of the opposite sex. Many are going to say, "oh no not me" but at least 90% of you will be lying. I agree that the liberty he took with his hands was inappropriate and should have been shut down. The fact she told her husband everything showed she wasn't trying to hide anything. Where there is honesty, trust, and open communication between spouses usually, there is no infidelity. I do wish you well.


My point. Also why I almost always give a guy a free pass if he gets seduced and aroused and has a one-night stand - and then immediately regrets it and tells his wife. We are only human and men, especially with the higher drive, have poor impulse control when it comes to sex (and women when it comes to attention/flattery). So I always give people a pass on a one-time issue.

That she confessed is a clear indicator to me that she's a decent person who was surprised, flattered, and enjoying of an unexpected flirt attack. And, if she's anything like me, she never would have dreamed that a guy - in PUBLIC - would have been that aggressive, and wouldn't have exactly been willing to throw a drink in his face like you see in movies; our unwillingness to cause a scene in public often has us holding back when we would rather speak out.

Just saying that people are mighty quick here to label her with a scarlet letter when the OP himself has said things are good.


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> My point. Also why I almost always give a guy a free pass if he gets seduced and aroused and has a one-night stand - and then immediately regrets it and tells his wife. We are only human and men, especially with the higher drive, have poor impulse control when it comes to sex (and women when it comes to attention/flattery). So I always give people a pass on a one-time issue.
> 
> That she confessed is a clear indicator to me that she's a decent person who was surprised, flattered, and enjoying of an unexpected flirt attack. And, if she's anything like me, she never would have dreamed that a guy - in PUBLIC - would have been that aggressive, and wouldn't have exactly been willing to throw a drink in his face like you see in movies; our unwillingness to cause a scene in public often has us holding back when we would rather speak out.
> 
> *Just saying that people are mighty quick here to label her with a scarlet letter when the OP himself has said things are good.*


Lots of people think things are good until they find out their spouse is wayward.


----------



## turnera

Nucking Futs said:


> Lots of people think things are good until they find out their spouse is wayward.


So you're saying she's now cheating on him?


----------



## Nucking Futs

turnera said:


> So you're saying she's now cheating on him?


I'm saying OP saying things are good is no proof or even evidence that she's not cheating. Things are good _as far as he knows_.

I'm also not saying this is infidelity. I am, however, saying this is not fidelity. And if OP doesn't spoil this memory for her she will cheat on him. I would bet on it. She needs to look back at this with regret, it cannot remain a happy memory.


----------



## faithfulman

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm saying OP saying things are good is no proof or even evidence that she's not cheating. Things are good _as far as he knows_.
> 
> I'm also not saying this is infidelity. *I am, however, saying this is not fidelity. And if OP doesn't spoil this memory for her she will cheat on him.* I would bet on it. She needs to look back at this with regret, it cannot remain a happy memory.



Bolded for emphasis. It may not start as infidelity, but she has definitely taken a step off of the path of fidelity.

This behavior is the beginning of what I call the "it's only" stage. 

- It's only flirting
- It's only lunch
- It's only a few a few intimate words
- It's only a hand
- It's only a kiss
- It's only bad if he finds out
- It's only once, I'll never do it again
- It's only sex, I love my husband


----------



## MattMatt

There's one thing that some of us are forgetting or overlooking.

Wife "I will always remember it. My 20th anniversary was great. I could have had a sexual liaison on the train but my love for my children made me pull back at the last moment. I will always treasure the moment when I realised I still have the ability to attract other men."

Husband "I will always remember it. My 20th anniversary was great. Right up until the moment when my wife was wooed by a man and she nearly had sex with a younger, more handsome man, but didn't because of our children. Then she wrecked my memories of our 20th anniversary."


----------



## TRy

netgear64 said:


> She told me she said no, but that it was hard for her and she didn't want it to stop





netgear64 said:


> she actually had to contemplate the situation and really didn't want it to end. She never thought to get up and find a different seat, because she didn't want to.





netgear64 said:


> Additional affection to which I refer, included him putting his hand on her thigh on multiple occasions. She said she would take his hand immediately and say 'don't do that'. Again, as I say, it was multiple occasions and she said no, but inside it was hard for her to say no too.
> 
> All the while between his affectionate words and actions (and her verbal refusals back to him), she confesses that her thoughts were one of difficulty. She says that it was hard to say no because she wanted it to continue


 This reminds me of the old pickup line “her lips say no, no, no, but her eyes say yes, yes, yes”. They both knew that if she really meant no, she would have gotten angry, or changed seats with you. Her saying no, if she really did say no, just gave her plausible deniability.

I am not saying divorce, just that the two of you need to get real when dealing with this.


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> So you're saying she's now cheating on him?


She admitted that she wanted to cheat. 

Was it to see what his reaction would be before admitting she did?

Only Net’s wife knows how far she took it. 

None of us know if she is being completely honest.


----------



## netgear64

I had no idea this would attract such attention from a wide audience. Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments, even though some of them have cut a little deep. In fact, some of the comments have been quite difficult to process mentally and emotionally.

Some have made some comments about us discussing this with some close friends for objective advice and counsel. Please be reassured that the ones we chose are very mature about this subject and will want to encourage us and yes, ultimately they want to see us happy together. But I do not see them doing that at the expense of minimizing or excusing what she did. They would be blunt enough to tell her if something is wrong. 

However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.


----------



## ABHale

I just see this going south fast. 

Netgear has you wife brought up anything in your conversations about being allowed to flirt with other men like she did on the train?


----------



## MattMatt

netgear64 said:


> I had no idea this would attract such attention from a wide audience. Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments, even though some of them have cut a little deep. In fact, some of the comments have been quite difficult to process mentally and emotionally.
> 
> Some have made some comments about us discussing this with some close friends for objective advice and counsel. Please be reassured that the ones we chose are very mature about this subject and will want to encourage us and yes, ultimately they want to see us happy together. But I do not see them doing that at the expense of minimizing or excusing what she did. They would be blunt enough to tell her if something is wrong.
> 
> However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.


A private meeting so that she can reveal things to other people that, if she shared with you, would hurt you even more than she has already hurt you? So that other people would know more about your marriage than you, her husband, knows? 

Hmmm. How can I put my reaction to this idea of hers?

*No! * *No!* *No!* *No!* *Hell, No!*

It's either the two of you and them, or the meeting just doesn't happen.

This next point I am making is for your benefit and for the benefit of the other participants as she wants to lay some serious **** on them! She wants them to hold a secret so that they know something about her and you and your marriage that you don't know? 

How is that fair on them, holding a secret that they would be duty bound to keep secret for her, but also duty bound to tell you about? What would they do? What could they do?

*Unacceptable!* 

It seems that she is playing games and this needs to be quashed, ASAP.


----------



## Lila

netgear64 said:


> I had no idea this would attract such attention from a wide audience. Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments, even though some of them have cut a little deep. In fact, some of the comments have been quite difficult to process mentally and emotionally.
> 
> Some have made some comments about us discussing this with some close friends for objective advice and counsel. Please be reassured that the ones we chose are very mature about this subject and will want to encourage us and yes, ultimately they want to see us happy together. But I do not see them doing that at the expense of minimizing or excusing what she did. They would be blunt enough to tell her if something is wrong.
> 
> However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. *After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? *I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.


 @netgear64 I think you two should consider doing this with someone trained in facilitating these types of conversations. What she has to say may come off as criticism of you. No one who loves their partner would intentionally do that. 

She's also probably gun shy about over sharing. She's seen how much she hurt you with her admissions and wants to avoid doing that further. 

Some things need to be said to be dealt with but they do hurt to hear. I recommend a good marriage counselor for that. You don't want to create more problems down the line.


----------



## netgear64

MattMatt said:


> A private meeting so that she can reveal things to other people that, if she shared with you, would hurt you even more than she has already hurt you? So that other people would know more about your marriage than you, her husband, knows?
> 
> Hmmm. How can I put my reaction to this idea of hers?
> 
> *No! * *No!* *No!* *No!* *Hell, No!*
> 
> It's either the two of you and them, or the meeting just doesn't happen.
> 
> This next point I am making is for your benefit and for the benefit of the other participants as she wants to lay some serious **** on them! She wants them to hold a secret so that they know something about her and you and your marriage that you don't know?
> 
> How is that fair on them, holding a secret that they would be duty bound to keep secret for her, but also duty bound to tell you about? What would they do? What could they do?
> 
> *Unacceptable!*
> 
> It seems that she is playing games and this needs to be quashed, ASAP.



I kind of thought I might hear that from someone on here. I feel that way too a little. I think I will talk to her about it. I'm already hurt, so what else could've happened? 
She's a very emotional person, so recognizing that this is an emotional turmoil right now, may be her way trying to spare me any more hurt. But again that may be her way of saying, 'I have more to say that I don't want you to hear'. If that's the case, I see our communication and my trust going downhill.


----------



## netgear64

ABHale said:


> I just see this going south fast.
> 
> Netgear has you wife brought up anything in your conversations about being allowed to flirt with other men like she did on the train?


No, not at all. We have always been faithful and uphold high moral values and principles regarding the sacredness of marriage. Any flirting with other people is just an invitation for trouble in a marriage.


----------



## Blondilocks

netgear64 said:


> I kind of thought I might hear that from someone on here. I feel that way too a little. I think I will talk to her about it. I'm already hurt, so what else could've happened?
> She's a very emotional person, so recognizing that this is an emotional turmoil right now, may be her way trying to spare me any more hurt. But again that may be her way of saying, 'I have more to say that I don't want you to hear'. If that's the case, I see our communication and my trust going downhill.


Spare your friends and get yourself to a marriage counselor. A neutral party will be able to help your wife share whatever she wants to hide from you in a safe environment.

Have you mentioned how old your children are? Does your wife work?


----------



## MattMatt

Lila said:


> @netgear64 I think you two should consider doing this with someone trained in facilitating these types of conversations. What she has to say may come off as criticism of you. No one who loves their partner would intentionally do that.
> 
> *She's also probably gun shy about over sharing.* She's seen how much she hurt you with her admissions and wants to avoid doing that further.
> 
> Some things need to be said to be dealt with but they do hurt to hear. I recommend a good marriage counselor for that. You don't want to create more problems down the line.


Except with young Italian men on trains?

Maybe my remark was unworthy, but maybe not.

But I agree about counselling. The sooner the better.


----------



## netgear64

Blondilocks said:


> Spare your friends and get yourself to a marriage counselor. A neutral party will be able to help your wife share whatever she wants to hide from you in a safe environment.
> 
> Have you mentioned how old your children are? Does your wife work?


We both feel that those whom we have invited, while we know them, we agree that they would be neutral and respectful in this situation. They are very caring, respectful, mature adults who have successful marriages of their own. 

Our children are 13 & 10. My wife does work part-time, self-employed out of the house. Her work gives her a little outlet out of the house to break free from the monotony of being mom, house-wife, homeschool teacher for the kids, etc., etc., etc. It's good for her.


----------



## Robert22205

Did she give the OM her cell phone number?
Has she had any contact with the OM since the train?

Gently: From your posts about your conversation, it sounds like the younger OM aroused her sexually in a way that her husband doesn't. 

Rather than trying to justify her temptation and her sexual attraction & response to OM, she should be focusing on reframing: the train incident as a negative experience and her sex life with you as relatively more satisfying. As well as establishing firm boundaries to protect her marriage. 

It is unfair and inappropriate to expect you to compete with the thrill she got from the stranger on the train.

IMO your wife's 'thinking' is wayward and requires professional help.


----------



## Blondilocks

netgear64 said:


> *We both feel that those whom we have invited, while we know them, we agree that they would be neutral and respectful in this situation. They are very caring, respectful, mature adults who have successful marriages of their own. *
> 
> Our children are 13 & 10. My wife does work part-time, self-employed out of the house. Her work gives her a little outlet out of the house to break free from the monotony of being mom, house-wife, homeschool teacher for the kids, etc., etc., etc. It's good for her.


OK, it looks like I'm going to have to be blunt here. It is not a good idea to advertise your wife's vulnerabilities and your marriage problems to friends. No matter how caring, how respectful, how mature, how trusted your friends are there is always a possibility that one of the husbands will see this as an opportunity to get in your wife's pants. Do you have any idea how many husbands are cuckolded by their best friends? And, he will have an in - because your wife already sees him as caring, respectful and mature. 

Please don't view this as an unwarranted attack on your friends (I don't know them). It's just a word to the wise. Good luck.


----------



## netgear64

Robert22205 said:


> Did she give the OM her cell phone number?
> Has she had any contact with the OM since the train?
> 
> Gently: From your posts about your conversation, it sounds like the younger OM aroused her sexually in a way that her husband doesn't.
> 
> Rather than trying to justify her temptation and her sexual attraction & response to OM, she should be focusing on reframing: *the train incident as a negative experience and her sex life with you as relatively more satisfying*. As well as establishing firm boundaries to protect her marriage.
> 
> *It is unfair and inappropriate to expect you to compete with the thrill she got from the stranger on the train.*
> 
> IMO your wife's 'thinking' is wayward and requires professional help.



No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.

I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories. 

As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.

I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


----------



## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.


For me, I would view this as holding a secret, one's true feelings not told and not part of what a marriage makes. Further, using friends as a sounding board puts the friends on the spot when some damning revelation is made in their presence. It would be best to seek IC and then MC. Leave the friends out as they may not be friends any longer once this is resolved for good or worse.


----------



## Robert22205

It's not just unfair to compare you to the OM but it's impossible for you to win.

The daily grind of being a spouse, raising kids, etc puts you at a disadvantage to the OM. 
The OM is nothing more than a fantasy (since she doesn't really know him like she knows you).


----------



## Tex X

netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.
> 
> I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories.
> 
> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.
> 
> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


Well you are sorely mistaken about some things. Your wife DOES like the attention and excitement of being attractive to men. She currently is not excited by your attraction to her. Now I see why. You say she has never been overly excited about sex - what have you done to keep her desire for you burning? She wants and craves sexual attention, but you're not giving it to her. You're too passive. You wait around until she's in the mood. She'd probably love it if you came home from work and ripped her clothes off and jumped her bones. Some women will admit it, and some women won't - but they all want to feel the primal animalistic passion from their significant other.

Your wife is bored and has lost all attraction for you. That's probably why she wants to speak with your friends in private because what she has to say will be devastating for you to hear. You have a lot of work to do on yourself. At this point I would avoid being overly affectionate and do not "shower her with attention". You will smother her and push her further away. You need to do the hard work on yourself and attract her back to YOU. Once a woman has lost passion and attraction it is very hard to get it back. Not impossible, but you have a long road ahead.

I would recommend a couple of books that you need to read ASAP:

1) No More Mr Nice Guy - Robert Glover
2) Married Man Sex Life Primer - Athol Kay


----------



## MattMatt

Robert22205 said:


> It's not just unfair to compare you to the OM but it's impossible for you to win.
> 
> The daily grind of being a spouse, raising kids, etc puts you at a disadvantage to the OM.
> The OM is nothing more than a fantasy (since she doesn't really know him like she knows you).


And the sexy foreign accent, the come to bed eyes, the fact that, as far as she knows, he is a perfect man who doesn't break wind or snore...

Under these circumstances the husband is never going to be good enough.


----------



## MEM2020

Well said. 

Routine kills passion and fear of loss drives excessive presence - which further suppresses passion.

That is why the outcome you describe below is so common. 



netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.
> 
> I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories.
> 
> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.
> 
> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


----------



## MEM2020

And I will see your grind and raise with:

If that guy was such a catch he’d likely be partnered 
Or
He is partnered and is a serial cheater

Either way.....







Robert22205 said:


> It's not just unfair to compare you to the OM but it's impossible for you to win.
> 
> The daily grind of being a spouse, raising kids, etc puts you at a disadvantage to the OM.
> The OM is nothing more than a fantasy (since she doesn't really know him like she knows you).


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> I had no idea this would attract such attention from a wide audience. Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments, even though some of them have cut a little deep. In fact, some of the comments have been quite difficult to process mentally and emotionally.
> 
> Some have made some comments about us discussing this with some close friends for objective advice and counsel. Please be reassured that the ones we chose are very mature about this subject and will want to encourage us and yes, ultimately they want to see us happy together. But I do not see them doing that at the expense of minimizing or excusing what she did. They would be blunt enough to tell her if something is wrong.
> 
> *However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.*


So my first thought on reading this is she's going to tell them she's unsatisfied in the marriage, that's why the flirting was such a thrill. I would have been ready to bet on that too.



netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.
> 
> I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories.
> 
> *As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.*
> 
> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


There it is. netgear64, you need to get her off the pedestal you have her on. She's not some delicate little flower, she's a woman, and sometimes women just want to get ****ed. Grabbed, clothes ripped off thrown on the bed and railed. Not like you respect her, but like she's so irresistible you can't keep your hands off her. Sure she wants your respect, but she also wants your desire, and the bolded part shows too much respect and not enough desire.

I think your marriage is in way deeper trouble than you realize.


----------



## BluesPower

netgear64 said:


> I had no idea this would attract such attention from a wide audience. Thank you so much everyone. I appreciate everyone's comments, even though some of them have cut a little deep. In fact, some of the comments have been quite difficult to process mentally and emotionally.
> 
> Some have made some comments about us discussing this with some close friends for objective advice and counsel. Please be reassured that the ones we chose are very mature about this subject and will want to encourage us and yes, ultimately they want to see us happy together. But I do not see them doing that at the expense of minimizing or excusing what she did. They would be blunt enough to tell her if something is wrong.
> 
> However, one revelation she brought up yesterday that kind of threw me, was that she wanted to meet with them privately without me, because she didn't want to hurt my feelings anymore than she already had. While her intent seemed sincere in sparing my feelings, I wasn't quite sure how to take it. After all, at this point, why would she want to do that unless there was something else she wasn't telling me? I told her I wanted her to be comfortable in whatever setting she felt. But at the same time, I feel this is an us issue and I should be in the room too.


You are joking with this, right? I mean, you simply have to be kidding us that you even remotely "don't know what to think about this"? Really, good god man...

The answer is a big fat hell no... 

Why are you even thinking about this... 

This request of hers tell me there was way more than she admitted. You sir, have huge problems with your wife...


----------



## ABHale

netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.
> 
> I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories.
> 
> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.
> 
> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


Has your sex life ever been great?

You need to find out how to pleasure your wife. 

She might not believe you find her attractive if the only time you are intimate with her is when she lets you know. 

Go after her like you want her. See how she responds. 

Stop playing the choose me game. You didn’t cause your wife to do what she did, that is on her. 

You are more then half responsible for the condition of your marriage. Remember this, actions speak louder then your words. If you are not actively pursuing your wife physically she will not believe you when you tell her she is beautiful and that you want her. Your actions don’t back up your words. 

The guy on the train. His actions backed up his words. That is why she responded to it. Because yours never have by what you just said.


----------



## ABHale

Don’t just go after your wife. 

The two of you need to talk this out and go from their. 

I really suggest like others that you talk with trained counselors


----------



## Hicks

netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.
> 
> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.


Here's the thing. Did the train guy accept the above description in relation to your wife's sexuality? And what was the result in terms of her sexual response?

What your wife is probably afraid to reveal to you is that she is not dead sexually.

But, you already found this out.

My suggestion is to use this as a learning experience. You learned that there is a sexual person under there and with the right key it can be unlocked.

Sexuality is complicated and for many reasons a wife will cause to be created a sexual dynamic into the marriage like the one you have. To sum it up a wife associates marriage with the social structure it provides, while a husband associates marriage with the sexual structure it provides.

You have worked hard at giving her the social structure, but you gave her a pass instead of giving you the sexual structure.

You should be approaching this with the goal of creating a marriage where all of these things are possible and connected. You need to link her sexual passion to the social structure of marriage.

Do not be afraid to share your expectations around sexuality in your marriage. But never under any circumstances ask you wife how to make it happen.


----------



## netgear64

Tex X said:


> Well you are sorely mistaken about some things. Your wife DOES like the attention and excitement of being attractive to men. She currently is not excited by your attraction to her. *Now I see why. You say she has never been overly excited about sex - what have you done to keep her desire for you burning? She wants and craves sexual attention, but you're not giving it to her. You're too passive. You wait around until she's in the mood. She'd probably love it if you came home from work and ripped her clothes off and jumped her bones. Some women will admit it, and some women won't - but they all want to feel the primal animalistic passion from their significant other.
> *
> Your wife is bored and has lost all attraction for you. That's probably why she wants to speak with your friends in private because what she has to say will be devastating for you to hear. You have a lot of work to do on yourself. At this point I would avoid being overly affectionate and do not "shower her with attention". *You will smother her and push her further away. You need to do the hard work on yourself and attract her back to YOU. Once a woman has lost passion and attraction it is very hard to get it back. Not impossible, but you have a long road ahead.
> *
> I would recommend a couple of books that you need to read ASAP:
> 
> 1) No More Mr Nice Guy - Robert Glover
> 2) Married Man Sex Life Primer - Athol Kay



I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.

Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


----------



## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. *That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.*


On the contrary my friend. My W wants to be pushed up against the wall and have sex. Stated so. Just like the movies she says. I oblige to my W every sexual desires. My W also stated that sometimes I just got to take it and have my way. Sometimes I simply take care of her business(oral) without her asking. Just do it and say have a great day when she is satisfied. Nothing for me return. Just a no strings attached release for her. Married 25 years. Still act like we are dating. Never stop dating your W.

You can take your marriage out of cruise control. I did after cruising for many years. Totally different relationship now. Much better. We are grown adults and not newly weds but act like it. Kids doing their own thing. It is refreshing.


----------



## niceguy47460

It sounds like she wants to tell them things you don't know . like maybe she has cheated or is thinking about it .

as far as sex goes women do like for things to be spontaneous . you might try walking up to her while she is doing dishes or something and start kissing her on the neck and rubbing her all over and tell her she she is so ****ing sexy you want her right then and there and take her right then and there .

If i was you i would not let her meet the people alone or have someway of finding out what she tells them . like maybe a var hidden somewhere . maybe in her purse or something .


----------



## faithfulman

It is a huge mistake to bring your friends into this matter at this time and it may have huge repercussions to your relationship with them in the future as well as your relationship with your wife.

They will be privy to a very disturbing incident in your marriage, but there is a very good chance they have a completely different opinion of it, and you might be very offended.

They might feel that a "minor infidelity" such as this is "no big deal" - it might even be amusing! and you should get over it. 

They might think that you are being unfair to your wife, because "nothing happened".

How will you take that? What happens then?

Your wife will have defenders that you brought in as trusted opinions to mediate her behavior and your reaction to it.

Your perspective and feelings will have been neutered.

***

And what if they feel the opposite way? That your wife was a loose woman and she completely dishonored your vows?

How will she take it? Will you club her with that? "Jim and Sue think what yo did was awful!"

I don't see how any good can come of it.

I don't even advocate marriage counseling. It is likely that a counselor is going to try and figure out how it is your fault that your wife wanted this man and still does. A lot of bull****.

What you need to do it get to the honest truth and decide if you can deal with it. Your wife behaved poorly. Her feelings afterwards are troublesome and lay the groundwork for worse behavior.

A couple of friends, no matter how mature are likely to give you suggestions about roses and upping the passion or some such stuff.

I am going to give you some good comments and advice:

- What your wife did/allowed to happen on the train was wrong. Full stop.
- Her feelings afterward are ****ed up and should worry you.

You need to blow a hole in that memory, make her understand that this kind of behavior is a slippery slope that ends in a divorce.

Let her know that in your marriage, she is yours and you are hers. Full stop. If she wants to foolishly entertain outside opportunities for romance she can do so as a single woman.

Please refer to my "He just wanted a hole" rant above.

Once you have that nailed down, then you can start working on upping the passion or whatever it is that can make your relationship better.


----------



## Robert22205

With respect to your wife's low interest in sex, that doesn't makes her less at risk for inappropriate behavior with another man.

What is important is your wife said she liked the 'attention' (how it made her feel) - and didn't stop it. That 'feeling' is potentially addictive and ultimately even a woman who does not have a strong sex drive will (once addicted) be tempted to eventually exchange sex for continued 'attention'. 

Your wife is of high morals etc. Therefore, instead of her remembering the train episode as a positive social experience, maybe you could encourage her to re-frame it as: she sat next to the Devil who spent 2 hours trying to tempt her to turn away from a Christ centered life (hurting herself, her husband, and her kids).


----------



## netgear64

Yeswecan said:


> On the contrary my friend. *My W wants to be pushed up against the wall and have sex.* Stated so. Just like the movies she says. I oblige to my W every sexual desires. My W also stated that sometimes I just got to take it and have my way. *Sometimes I simply take care of her business(oral) without her asking.* Just do it and say have a great day when she is satisfied. Nothing for me return. Just a no strings attached release for her. Married 25 years. Still act like we are dating. Never stop dating your W.
> 
> You can take your marriage out of cruise control. I did after cruising for many years. Totally different relationship now. Much better. We are grown adults and not newly weds but act like it. Kids doing their own thing. It is refreshing.



I suppose there exist exceptions to the rule, or perhaps I've just come to accept that my wife's feelings about sex are the rule about women, when it may not be for a minority of them. 

"take care of her business"? She ask for it?? I practically have to beg for it! My wife's not into it at all and obviously doesn't reciprocate (I don't know what's like). She obliges my desire for that on rare occasions.


----------



## Tex X

netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


I am here to tell you that women DO in fact like being 'taken' on occasion. They want to feel the burning desire you have for them, just as we want to feel that burning desire from them. Burning desire doesn't just happen on it's own. It takes action. And no it's not all about the sex - there has to be a strong foundation in the relationship. Love, trust, communication, mutual respect, etc. Women don't want to be objects, but yes real women do in fact LOVE that stuff!

And stop projecting how you think your wife will react. When my marriage was in the tank and I started figuring things out, one time I did exactly that. I came home, grabbed my wife, and took her into the bedroom and had my way with her. Afterwards she said - "Damn that was HOT!". By that time it was too late for us, and we divorced not too long after that, but her reaction was very telling. I'm remarried now, and I can tell you my current wife loves the sl*t treatment every now and then. 

Look - a lot of marriages get put on cruise control over the years. It's up to you to change that dynamic. Don't get depressed, and don't feel sorry for yourself. You're realizing things now that can make you a better man and husband, and that's pretty cool. It's never too late, and no you are not too old. Will it save your marriage? Maybe, maybe not. But honestly who cares? Your goal to should be to make yourself the best man you can be, and to decide what you want and need in a relationship, and commit to getting your needs met. If that's with your current wife then great. If not, then great.


----------



## turnera

netgear64 said:


> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'. I never ask for it, as I only want to do it when she's in the mood, so I wait patiently on her, usually once a week, maybe. While not going into too much detail, all I can say is it's fairly perfunctory and routine. I may see a piece of lingerie on her once a year, if I'm lucky. Would I like it to be more? Sure. But I don't want to come across as demanding and selfish, especially since she's not really into it. It's more for my husband's pleasure, in her mind.
> 
> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel. For days now, I just want to bring home flowers everyday, call her every waking moment, shower her with attention. But I think it's because I feel an inordinate sense of fear of losing her emotional attachment to our marriage, perhaps.


Find the book 52 Invitations for Grrrreat Sex and start using it. It's not a book you read. It's a group of 52 invitations - 26 for you and 26 for her. It will change a lot in your marriage - give her a reason to look forward to sex and get you more of what you're wishing for.

And maybe pick up a couple of romance novels and read them (you, not her). You'll see a pattern on what women are really looking for, and it's not flowers. It's strength, willingness to 'go there', aggression even, something to get their hearts fluttering. It's a subconscious thing that most women respond to, goes back to caveman days when strong men kept us alive and weak men got killed. She got a thrill out of this guy because he 'went there.' He was aggressive, daring, risk taking. You are tame, you bring flowers. The book I described above will give you guys a little of what he was doing. 

Other ways you can get it is by shaking up your lives. One time my husband arranged for a couples massage followed by a night at the place with music, champagne, fruit...all by ourselves. He just picked me up from work, already had the bag packed, and whisked me away. That was 30 years ago and I still remember it like it was yesterday, because it was daring, unique, showed initiative. Take up skydiving together. Be more aggressive in bed. Bulk up your body to a T shape. Dress better. SHOW her you're desirable, that women will give you looks over their shoulders. Read Married Man Sex Life Primer.


----------



## niceguy47460

Look she is the one with secrets you are not . you are in way at fault except being passive . man up and get mad . 

The man on the train was trying to take her . that alone should tell you she wants to be taken .


----------



## MattMatt

Yep! We get it! All women want to banged like a barn door, taken by their husband dressed as a pirate, ravished... and etc., etc.

Well, actually, maybe all women don't want that?


----------



## turnera

Robert22205 said:


> With respect to your wife's low interest in sex, that doesn't makes her less at risk for inappropriate behavior with another man.
> 
> What is important is your wife said she liked the 'attention' (how it made her feel) - and didn't stop it. That 'feeling' is potentially addictive and ultimately even a woman who does not have a strong sex drive will (once addicted) be tempted to eventually exchange sex for continued 'attention'.


It's often said cheating men pretend to care to get the sex while cheating women give the sex to get the care.


----------



## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> I suppose there exist exceptions to the rule, or perhaps I've just come to accept that my wife's feelings about sex are the rule about women, when it may not be for a minority of them.
> 
> "take care of her business"? She ask for it?? I practically have to beg for it! My wife's not into it at all and obviously doesn't reciprocate (I don't know what's like). She obliges my desire for that on rare occasions.


Sounds like you accept that your W feelings about sex as the rule. But, have you sat and spoke to your W about her feelings about sex? 


No, my W does not ask for it. I simply do it, all be it slowly to get her going. She knows what is coming. My W reciprocates. 

It appears to me you both need to have a conversation about each other ideas of intimacy with each other, just what sex is and desires for each other.


----------



## Yeswecan

MattMatt said:


> Yep! We get it! All women want to banged like a barn door, taken by their husband dressed as a pirate, ravished... and etc., etc.
> 
> Well, actually, maybe all women don't want that?


Not all women certainly but one does not know until the question is asked.


----------



## BluesPower

netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


My brother, you are completely and totally clueless about sex and women... 

This will not end well for you.


----------



## southernplus40

You are a "nice" guy. You are acting like a "nice" guy. I want you to think about this slightly altered, but entirely reasonable train travel scenario. Instead of the seating snafu on the same train, what if it meant that you two went on separate while waiting. Your physical proximity to her would not be the "problem"it was on your anniversary trip when it came to pulling away from her pursuer. Being the nice guy that you are you still think "NO WAY, NOT MY WIFE"'. Conversations and words of love without boundaries and consequences do not address why she put herself in this position; why she didn't shut this down; why she thinks that she will always remember this breach of your trust so fondly. I am telling you that your sadness and her professed dismay just wont cut it here. Instead of sadness have you tried anger and frustration. Have you showed her what she has to lose and how much you love and cherish her. You fear your anger and frustration will push her away, scare her. Even with your calm considerate approach she still has secrets that she only wants to tell the "friends". And these secrets are indeed concerning to anyone who has experienced infidelity. And let the trickle of truth begin. Good luck.


----------



## ABHale

netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


My wife and I waited until our wedding night. This was her choice and I took a lot of cold showers. 

Thing started out slow but progressed. It went from there. She would walk by me, brush up against me and the chase was on. Her saying we have things we have to do as I gave chase. Funny how the chase always ended on the couch or in our bedroom. I left no question about my desire for her. I wanted it, well always. She was ok with once or twice a week. We compromised as all couples do. 

The thing is you made the mistake early on by not talking with her about this. Then all of a sudden another man has your wife wanting more then what she has. Make no mistake that your wife is a sexual creature you just never opened that up for her. It took another man forcing himself on her with heavy flirting and touching her for her to feel sexually wanted and responded to it.


----------



## turnera

And women's preferences often change as they get older. Don't forget we still live in a double standard world, where it's cool for guys to get around but girls get labeled. So even though this generation is more open than mine was, many women still grow up with preconceived notions about what's appropriate...until they get older and start losing their fear and want 'more.' The problem is, they may not know or understand that they want more...until an incident like in the train. This is a perfect time for you two to start exploring this together.


----------



## ABHale

Lila said:


> Possibly but I was referring to oversharing her feelings/thoughts with her husband. She now understands that nothing good came of telling OP about her relishing the flirtation.
> 
> I am almost 100% sure that what she's hiding from OP are her true feelings regarding the lack of sexual energy she feels towards him. She's probably very aware that nothing good will come of her sharing that with him.
> 
> Even if there is a small chance of it improving things in their relationship, she has a much better chance of destroying him in the process. It doesn't sound like she's cruel. Clueless, yes! Cruel, no.
> 
> Her best bet is to keep her mouth shut and share nothing with anyone that is not a paid, professional, licensed, and certified marriage counselor.


I agree with you on this. The thing is with what netgear is saying they are both at fault for it. Her always being a prude, making him think she just doesn’t like or want sex. Netgear for not pursuing what he wanted. 

With what has been say, she never should have said anything with the way she has always treated Netgear in regards to sex. She has never had a cherished memory with him. 

They need a counselor


----------



## faithfulman

niceguy47460 said:


> Look she is the one with secrets you are not . *you are in way at fault except being passive . man up and get mad . *
> 
> _The man on the train was trying to take her . that alone should tell you she wants to be taken ._



I agree with both the bolded and the italicized.

But does she want to be "taken" by @netgear64 ?


----------



## faithfulman

southernplus40 said:


> You are a "nice" guy. You are acting like a "nice" guy. I want you to think about this slightly altered, but entirely reasonable train travel scenario. Instead of the seating snafu on the same train, what if it meant that you two went on separate while waiting. Your physical proximity to her would not be the "problem"it was on your anniversary trip when it came to pulling away from her pursuer. Being the nice guy that you are you still think "NO WAY, NOT MY WIFE"'. Conversations and words of love without boundaries and consequences do not address why she put herself in this position; why she didn't shut this down; why she thinks that she will always remember this breach of your trust so fondly. *I am telling you that your sadness and her professed dismay just wont cut it here. Instead of sadness have you tried anger and frustration. Have you showed her what she has to lose and how much you love and cherish her. You fear your anger and frustration will push her away, scare her. Even with your calm considerate approach she still has secrets that she only wants to tell the "friends". And these secrets are indeed concerning to anyone who has experienced infidelity. And let the trickle of truth begin.* Good luck.



Exactly. @netgear64 - you should be mad, and she should know it!


----------



## Hicks

netgear64 said:


> I suppose there exist exceptions to the rule, or perhaps I've just come to accept that my wife's feelings about sex are the rule about women, when it may not be for a minority of them.
> 
> "take care of her business"? She ask for it?? I practically have to beg for it! My wife's not into it at all and obviously doesn't reciprocate (I don't know what's like). She obliges my desire for that on rare occasions.



What are your wife's views on sex? That's where you are having a problem. The views you thought she had are not what you directly observed. You should react to this new data point you have now.

The advice about "taking her" etc. is all bad advice because you have to be true to yourself and becoming a different guy overnight will not work out well for you. You know this. But it is a huge turn off to women to see a guy who is afraid to articulate what he wants and accept passionless duty sex.

There is no quick fix.

You have fallen under a very common and standard view of marriage. A wife gives sex not because she wants it but to placate her husband. Don't get depressed to be in a common situation shared by millions.

But you as a key participant in said marriage have a huge amount of power to change how your marriage is defined.

I think it is really horrible idea to meet with friends, unless you know what their idea of marriage is all about. Do they believe that marriage should be passionate and mutually fulfilling, or do they fall into the "that's the way it is" mindset. The minute someone validates to your wife that it's normal for marriages to be stale and passionless, you will never see any changes.

It's really up to you and your wife to define your marriage. It's really up to you to define what you will tolerate in your marriage.

I suggest making up your mind that:
1. You will not beg for sex.
2 You will not be ashamed of wanting sex.
3. Sex is natural and fun so asking for it when you want it is not wrong.
4. You will not accept duty sex.
5. You will have a mutually fulfilling marriage.


----------



## ABHale

Netgear has your wife ever shown interest in you like she has for the guy in the train?


----------



## Buddy400

netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


Two things....

One. Women often experience a loss of libido in long term relationships. There's a thread here on TAM regarding this. Often, once the NRE (new relationship energy) wears off, women change from spontaneous desire to responsive desire. Expecting your wife's sexual desire to work just like yours is problematic. If you never initiate, then she's going to assume that your having sex (with her) isn't very important to you even though you mention it occasionally.

Two. A large part of many women's sexual desire comes from her partner's sexual desire for them. So, if you sit back passively waiting for her to initiate, you may be depriving her sexual desire of the fuel it needs to be activated. See the following link...

http://www.drpsychmom.com/2014/07/1...y-no-preschooler-drawings-in-this-post-sorry/

Your sex life with your wife can be better and more fulfilling for both of you if you make it clear that this is important to you and she's willing to give it a try.


----------



## faithfulman

netgear64 said:


> *I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.*
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.



AND



netgear64 said:


> I suppose there exist exceptions to the rule, or perhaps I've just come to accept that my wife's feelings about sex are the rule about women, when it may not be for a minority of them.
> 
> *"take care of her business"? She ask for it?? I practically have to beg for it! My wife's not into it at all and obviously doesn't reciprocate (I don't know what's like). She obliges my desire for that on rare occasions.*




@netgear64 - I'll bet you anything if you had been sitting with your wife on the train and had come onto her the exact same way he did, she would have shut you down. "It's embarrassing!" or "What do you think you are doing?" - something like that.

At the same time, she was into Romeo pushing up on her , HARD!, and she didn't want it to stop and still likes the feeling.

What to do?

1) Get ****ing mad.
2) Let her know this can never, ever happen again or there will be serious consequences.
3) Let her know in no uncertain terms that if she A) Wants to be married to you, and B) wants this kind of action, then she has to get it from you and you are happy to oblige.
4) Then ****ing do it!


1, 2, and 3 will level set how it is (This is not a negotiation!) and will get her primed and quite possibly turn her on - THEN YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW THROUGH!

***

Dude, I went/am going through what you went through, but in a different way. Not nearly as bad as so many others (I think), but enough to break the glass and pull the alarm.

And by the way, I am not a passive man, but I let things get out of hand in my relationship after we had kids.

When I acted "hurt", I was dismissed and treated like a ****ing punk.

When I got mad and laid down the law, things changed. I took charge and do so every day!

I am greeted by wet ***** constantly. She wants me to "take her" and she will perform in bed like never before. I have changed her outlook and her behavior completely.

It's like having a brand new wife, who is much better than she ever was. *She loves our revised dynamic.*

We still have issues we are working through because of her behavior and lies, but she knows what the boundaries are, and that she can never, ever, cross them again.

You got to MAN UP!

(_Ladies, sorry for the chauvinistic and sexist outlook, teehee, but it is what it is._)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Not much to say......."....

I learned quickly catering leads to boredom, boredom leads to chance taking, taking chances leads to where you are at now. 

1) You accpeted her version, make sure you do 100%.
2)She was groped/fondled/touched and didn't get up.

Yes, this makes it serious and getting up doesn't cause a scene nor would it have ruined the anniversary. NOPE, don't buy it. 

Leave the friends out of this part of your marriage.

As my parents used to say when I was growing up, "keep your business out of the street" my grandmother used to add "because it may end up in the gutter."

Don't involve your friends, they are not nuetral.

1)They may feel it is neccessary to take sides.
2)You could cause trouble in their marriage.


----------



## syhoybenden

netgear64 said:


> No, she did not exchange any information with the OM, no cell number, no social media accounts, nothing.



And how exactly do you know this??

Oh I see. You're taking her word for it.

You just might want to reconsider being so credulous.


----------



## sunsetmist

I'm wondering how much conservative Christian backgrounds affect your marriage dynamic? 

Your 'gentlemanly' approach to sex also suggests the above. Talk to a mature couple is often well-meaning advice in a church setting. However, I believe after years of observation, this is an error and professional help should be used. 

Romance, intimacy, connection are extremely important to women--be an outrageous flirt. I believe sex in marriage is one of God's greatest gifts. Sorry if I'm way off in my musing about y'all.


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## Robert22205

You said she's very emotional and you imply that it limits your ability to be direct in confronting and discussing issues with her. Unfortunately, emotional behavior can also control & manipulate. If her emotional reaction discourages or blocks deep discussions then your communication is severely limited (you guys need professional help: IC for each and then MC). 

Her doing an end run around you to talk with the other couple in private sounds like another attempt to block, control and manipulate. (Say no). 

Insist she spill the beans immediately. Her justification is that she wants to protect your feelings but under the circumstances it's controlling & manipulative behavior that deprives you of your right to control your life. It's abusive because withholding information distorts your reality and in turn steals your agency and your ability to make decisions for yourself. 

We only know what's in your posts, but IMO it sounds like your relationship is out of balance where she sets the bar (while avoiding blocking input from you)- and you agree to jump. For example, rather than confront you with a request for more sex/romance she acts out with another man and then manipulates you so that you feel she's the victim of a stale marriage. 

First, you are only responsible for 50% of the stale marriage. What has you done to reach out to you romantically or spice up the bedroom?

I think you guys need professional help, lots of self help books, and you need to stop being so codependent on her. 
I think you need to exert more control in your marriage even if it triggers an emotional reaction. 

Take a look at the 180. Not to punish your wife - but to take back your agency. 

You sound more terrified of loosing her than she is of loosing you. Unfortunately, the more you try to please her the weaker you look and the less appealing you are. Don't wait for her .... start IC for yourself.


----------



## TRy

netgear64 said:


> I believe her when she admits it was a horrible mistake and has tainted our anniversary trip memories.


Correction, the other man ("OM") did not taint "our" anniversary trip memories, he only tainted "your" anniversary trip memories. Your wife has already admitted that her memories with the OM on the train are something that she will cherish. She may feel pressured by you now to say otherwise, but that does not change the truth that she expressed before she felt the pressure. 



netgear64 said:


> As far as our 'sex life', she has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited for it. It's more of a 'I know he likes it and needs it and I want to make my husband happy'.


You say that your wife "has never really been one to long for it or get overly excited" about sex with you, and that she only has sex with you to make her "husband happy". What that is called is dry between the legs duty sex. What the OM was trying to do with the flirting, the touching, the kissing, the whispering in her ears about what he would like do to her on the train, and what he would like to take her home for, was to get her wet between the legs excited, longing to have sex with him. Clearly he succeeded, and in doing so your wife has now established to herself that there is nothing sexually wrong with her. In her mind the OM has shown her that the problem is not that she has a low sex drive, the problem is that you are not a very good lover. Please understand that I am not saying this to be mean; I am saying this so that you have a chance to address it.



netgear64 said:


> I think you nailed it when speaking about feeling unfair in competing with the thrill she received from the OM on the train. That's exactly how I feel.


 It is totally and completely unfair for you to have to compete with other men for your wife. Marriage was suppose to end the competition. It would be just as unfair if she had to compete with a hot younger woman that you meet at work. There is a same old same old aspect of your spouse that an exciting new person does not have to deal with. A spouse already knows all of your accomplishment, stories, and jokes, whereas a new person hearing them for the first time, would find them impressive, interesting and funny. When you tell a spouse for the thousandth time how attractive they are, it does not validate or excite them nearly as much as when a new person of the opposite sex tells them the same thing.

The planned meeting to discuss this with your close friends is worse that a bad idea. They will never be able to unremembered how exciting your wife found the OM, and that you are not meeting the sexual needs of your wife. It will be mostly about your sexual deficits, and they will think less of you as a man because of it. The female friend may identify with and reinforce what your wife is saying, and the male friend will know that your wife may be vulnerable to be had by another man. Worse yet, the fact that your wife wants to meet them without you, shows that her concern is not on addressing how this has hurt you, but in validating why she did it. 

There are a number of common important martial boundaries that most couples have when it comes to friends of the opposite sex. One of them is to never share martial issues with them. Another is to never seriously discuss sex with them. Your bringing them into this matter, violates both of these, and once done the bell cannot be un-rung. Add to this the possibility that if your wife has her way, they will have this relationship without you, where you are on the outside shutout, and they are on the inside together without you, and it is becomes even worse. 

Even dogs know better than to do their business where they eat. Do not bring these friends into this. If you do, you will regret it.


----------



## jlg07

netgear64 said:


> No, not at all. We have always been faithful and uphold high moral values and principles regarding the sacredness of marriage. Any flirting with other people is just an invitation for trouble in a marriage.


And YET she still did this.... This isn't faithful, isn't high moral values, and obviously YOU think more of the sacredness of marriage than she does.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

well, this means the site has become better. This threadjack would've been much earlier before I left.


Hey Net, I am going to be blunt. I asked you stuff earlier and you glossed over it. Others have asked certain questions and you continue to gloss over an important paet of this issue.


What is up with you? Please stop, with the current deflecting answers about your wife's morality, how awesome she is, how bad she feels and all of the "we" answers you keep dropping.

What happened and what did she say that has you going to a forum and calling in outside help? 
What happened to trigger this desire to dig into this one flirting incident.
Yes, I read the OP. 
Yes, I see how she keeps adding more.


Your gut is telling you something, what is it?


----------



## MattMatt

The problem is that sometimes people who usually have high moral values can so something so apparently out of character that it can take our breath away.

And we have problems believing that they did what they did.

But they did it. And it is really up to them to make amends and fix things if they can.

@netgear64, ask your wife this:- if you had confessed to spending two hours flirting and kissing with a hot Italian babe on the train, perhaps the younger sister of her Italian man, what would she think of that? What would she do?


----------



## netgear64

phillybeffandswiss said:


> well, this means the site has become better. This threadjack would've been much earlier before I left.
> 
> 
> Hey Net, I am going to be blunt. I asked you stuff earlier and you glossed over it. Others have asked certain questions and you continue to gloss over an important paet of this issue.
> 
> 
> What is up with you? Pleas, with the current deflecting answers about you wife's morality, how awesome she is, how bad she feels and all of the "we" answers you keep dropping.
> 
> What happened and what did she say that has you going to a forum and calling in outside help?
> What happened to trigger this desire to dig into this one flirting incident.
> Yes, I read the OP.
> Yes, I see how she keeps adding more.
> 
> 
> Your gur is telling you something, what is it?



I'm sorry for glossing over every single question or concern. Honestly, I didn't know what to expect when I got on here. I've never been on one of these marriage advice forums. I've never felt compelled to get on one of these as I've never felt down like this and wanted a third-party opinion on a situation in my marriage. Sure, we've had our differences and arguments through the years, but nothing that we didn't work out quickly. However, this time I just felt as though I saw a real possibility there for her to walk away from our marriage. She didn't take it. But I'm afraid now of the mental 'what-if' that may linger in her head. 

I know there has been much feedback on here cautioning me against her discussing this without our friends without me. While at the outset it makes me a little suspicious, I honestly believe she is trying to spare my feelings. She can see it on me since we got back, that I haven't been the same (I've lost 5 pounds in 10 days). With all due respect though, is it any different than what I'm doing right now on here, talking to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem?


----------



## farsidejunky

Speaking as a Moderator:

Bickering amongst each other over the best course of action is a thread jack.

It stops now.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## TRy

netgear64 said:


> With all due respect though, is it any different than what I'm doing right now on here, talking to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem?


 Yes, talking anonymously here on this site “to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem” is very different than talking to people that you know, that are close friends to both you and your wife, without you there. In light of the explanations previously posted on this thread by multiple people as to why involving your real world friends is a bad idea (see my recent post #197 for one example of this), I find it interesting that you would still be asking this. Go to marriage counseling with a therapist specifically trained in couples counseling, but keep your friends out of it. 

I am concerned that you appear to have now started to rationalize your wife’s actions to yourself by selectively processing advice that you read here.


----------



## Robert22205

It sounds like you tend to do whatever it takes to please her (hey ...you're not alone). Pleasing her makes you feel good about yourself and your marriage. Unfortunately, that strategy if carried too far results in an imbalance of power/control - and instead of being grateful it eventually undermines the relationship with selfish & entitled thinking.

I think you need to stop subverting your emotional/physical needs & dreams to hers (it's not working) - and exert more control in your marriage. She's been in charge for a long time so expect a strong emotional reaction in her attempt to regain control. Her doing an end run around you to talk with the other couple in private sounds like an attempt to block, control and manipulate. Insist she spill the beans immediately. 

You sound more terrified of loosing her than she is of loosing you. It's probably not true it's just that she's learned that divorce is not an option for you.

Unfortunately, on a subconscious level, the more you try to please her the weaker you look, the less appealing you are as a partner - and the less concern she has for your needs. The most successful strategy for negotiating with your wife is from a position of strength. Regardless of how you feel about divorce, she needs to believe through your actions as well as verbally that divorce is an option. 

Don't wait for her (that gives her control) .... start IC for yourself (it takes time via trial & error to find a good therapist). Read up on the 180 (soft vs hard). Not to punish your wife - but to take back your agency (in her eyes - as well as for yourself). Set up an appointment with an attorney to see what divorce looks like - not because you're ready to divorce but to remove uncertainty and give you a sense of control.

I wish you both well.


----------



## SecondWind

The difference between talking with us and with friends is that we don't know either of you so we don't feel compelled to take sides. Nor do we care if we hurt your feelings with the truth as we see it. Friends have a sense of loyalty to affirm each other and maintain the friendship. Even if they disagree with your wife they will not be inclined to come down hard.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
This level of honesty is an enormous step forward. 

Passion and stability are inherently hostile to one another. 

That said, stability and polite dishonesty or stability and avoidance of dangerous topics - are also common. 

Your wife told you this story because she WANTS more edge from you. 

In our house - where I sometimes refer to my lovely wife as: Little Sparta 
In our house - the clothing tear off routine would not work. 

However, I sometimes say: If you do that (whatever “that” happens to be in the moment) again you will get a spanking. 

If she doesn’t really react than, nothing happens. But usually, usually she does whatever “that” is again or just says: you wish you could spank me. And then it’s on. So we have some sort of hand to hand combat/wrestling. And within 24 hours of that - we have sex. Usually right after we wrestle, but always within a day.





netgear64 said:


> I guess when it comes to a sex life, I just always felt it would be best to be patient as it's something to share as an expression of love and respect for one another. I've never just walked into the room from work and ripped her clothes off. Would I like to? Absolutely! She wouldn't go for it I'm sure. She would take it as me being too selfish and domineering, and most likely get mad. That's the stuff you only see in the movies, right? Real women don't actually like that kind of stuff, right? Remember, we're married, not dating.
> 
> Thanks for your input. I tell you, the more I read these comments, the more I just want to cry. It's kind of depressing me, like maybe I should've done things differently many years ago, rather than just put my marriage on cruise control and get into a rut.


----------



## Tex X

netgear64 said:


> She can see it on me since we got back, that I haven't been the same (I've lost 5 pounds in 10 days).


I'm sure she sees it and I'm sure she couldn't care less. Moping around and being depressed isn't going to solve anything - in fact it'll make things worse. I said it before, but it's worth repeating. Fix yourself first! Get out and do some things that you enjoy doing. What are your hobbies? Do you have any close male friends you can hang out with? I get it - your marriage sucks right now. You're not the first guy to be in that situation, and you certainly will not be the last. Be a man and accept your part in this, and commit to being an even better man. In the end you'll be a better person whether or not your marriage succeeds. That's the mindset you need to have right now.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
You are doing great. I wouldn’t say it if it wasn’t true. You are digging deep and slogging forward over terrain that is both confusing and frightening. 

Most couples find that their struggle with passion is caused primarily by their strong desire for stability. 




netgear64 said:


> I'm sorry for glossing over every single question or concern. Honestly, I didn't know what to expect when I got on here. I've never been on one of these marriage advice forums. I've never felt compelled to get on one of these as I've never felt down like this and wanted a third-party opinion on a situation in my marriage. Sure, we've had our differences and arguments through the years, but nothing that we didn't work out quickly. However, this time I just felt as though I saw a real possibility there for her to walk away from our marriage. She didn't take it. But I'm afraid now of the mental 'what-if' that may linger in her head.
> 
> I know there has been much feedback on here cautioning me against her discussing this without our friends without me. While at the outset it makes me a little suspicious, I honestly believe she is trying to spare my feelings. She can see it on me since we got back, that I haven't been the same (I've lost 5 pounds in 10 days). With all due respect though, is it any different than what I'm doing right now on here, talking to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem?


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
The primary drawback to following the ‘punish and shame’ your wife is that she is likely to shut down on this topic. 

On this thread, you have demonstrated the ability to be clear, concise and fearlessly honest. She will LOVE THAT if you do that with her - provided - you do a low affect delivery. 

If it was me, this is what I would say. I’m glad you told me this. We both want more passion and ought try to find it with each other. Up until now, I’ve prioritized being considerate and polite, over passion. And you’ve chosen to avoid hurting my feelings by avoiding the topic. And then without warning or preamble I’d smack her bottom (the art is a light sting but no real pain) and say: fear is the enemy. And then I would shut the heck up. I mean I wouldn’t say a word. Nothing. But I would make eye contact and smile a bit. 

You need her to be honest with you. For that to happen she has to see you as willing to take at least some risks. And that means you need to be willing to have conflict. She would not have told you about the guy on the train unless she wanted something from you. And it isn’t forgiveness, it’s aggression.








netgear64 said:


> I'm sorry for glossing over every single question or concern. Honestly, I didn't know what to expect when I got on here. I've never been on one of these marriage advice forums. I've never felt compelled to get on one of these as I've never felt down like this and wanted a third-party opinion on a situation in my marriage. Sure, we've had our differences and arguments through the years, but nothing that we didn't work out quickly. However, this time I just felt as though I saw a real possibility there for her to walk away from our marriage. She didn't take it. But I'm afraid now of the mental 'what-if' that may linger in her head.
> 
> I know there has been much feedback on here cautioning me against her discussing this without our friends without me. While at the outset it makes me a little suspicious, I honestly believe she is trying to spare my feelings. She can see it on me since we got back, that I haven't been the same (I've lost 5 pounds in 10 days). With all due respect though, is it any different than what I'm doing right now on here, talking to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem?


----------



## netgear64

TRy said:


> Yes, talking anonymously here on this site “to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem” is very different than talking to people that you know, that are close friends to both you and your wife, without you there. In light of the explanations previously posted on this thread by multiple people as to why involving your real world friends is a bad idea (see my recent post #197 for one example of this), I find it interesting that you would still be asking this. Go to marriage counseling with a therapist specifically trained in couples counseling, but keep your friends out of it.
> 
> I am concerned that you appear to have now started to rationalize your wife’s actions to yourself by selectively processing advice that you read here.



It's not that I am selectively processing advice. Trust me, I'm reading it all, painful as some of it may be for me to read. It's opening me up to the realities that some may have had or are having to deal with, which is what I wanted to hear.

However, the reality of the situation is, while not condoning her behavior, I know my wife and know the good that she has done over the past 20 years of our marriage. It's a little unfair that I have only unloaded the negative of her on you, based on this one-time occasion for which I have sought advice. So it can be easy for you guys to develop a little bit of a negatively-biased view towards her. I understand that. You have only seen the bad, but I have seen the good and I believe there is hope that can be seen through this with effort on both our parts. You guys have been helpful and I appreciate it. Thanks.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
I give your wife huge props for opening this topic with you. It is a very frightening topic for many people. 

I am NOT condoning her behavior on the train. That said, I really really believe that her discussion with you was intended to be the first step towards addressing the lack of passion in your marriage. She wasn’t trying to hurt your feelings, she was merely shining a bright light into your bedroom. 

You want to ask some ballsy questions, here goes. And open with this....

Thankfully, you don’t pretend with me when we do connect. So I know it is a one sided experience. And now it’s time to tell me how much of that is caused by a lack of:
- aggression
- technique
- pacing 

You will get one of two outcomes: cooperation or defiance. If you get the latter, I would just shrug and say: It is sadistic to tell your partner that you desperately want passion and then stonewall them on working towards getting there. 

Oh - welcome to ‘The Show’. The absolutely paramount rule for the man is to remain low affect. If you show anger (which is a secondary emotion caused by fear or pain) she will be less open with you. If you seem - at ease with all this - that will encourage her to be more open. 

You want to be hitting the gym daily now. Not for muscle, rather for the emotional stability that comes with hard exercising.





netgear64 said:


> It's not that I am selectively processing advice. Trust me, I'm reading it all, painful as some of it may be for me to read. It's opening me up to the realities that some may have had or are having to deal with, which is what I wanted to hear.
> 
> However, the reality of the situation is, while not condoning her behavior, I know my wife and know the good that she has done over the past 20 years of our marriage. It's a little unfair that I have only unloaded the negative of her on you, based on this one-time occasion for which I have sought advice. So it can be easy for you guys to develop a little bit of a negatively-biased view towards her. I understand that. You have only seen the bad, but I have seen the good and I believe there is hope that can be seen through this with effort on both our parts. You guys have been helpful and I appreciate it. Thanks.


----------



## Deejo

So ... welcome to TAM.

Land of hyperbole and overreaction.

Do keep in mind you are on a site with a number of contributors who have been directly impacted by infidelity. Thus ... input is often colored by experience.

Do keep in mind you are under no obligation to respond to anyone's questions at all. You seek input, or read through posts and learn. All up to you.

That said, I do hope you have read MEM's posts.

No need to answer this ... and you may have already. I'm thinking that you shouldn't be ruminating over being hurt by the fact that your wife shared all of these details with you. You should be wondering WHY she did. Just think, if she just kept the whole event under wraps, you would be none the wiser ... and not concerned about the state of your marriage. And to that end, as has been pointed out ... she wants something from you. Whether or not you want to explore what that is, and provide it, is up to you.


----------



## MEM2020

Low affect means no nervous talking. So below, after you ask your question, be silent. If she doesn’t immediately respond, don’t prompt her with: are you going to say something?

Be silent. You’ve asked a question. A hard and scary question. The average husband, if his wife says nothing - will start talking. He might even try to answer his own question. That happens if and only if you allow your ego to hijack your body and try to protect itself. 

If she decides she simply is not going to respond, than after a couple minutes of silence you ought to shrug and go about your day. Not an angry stalk off, a patient - ok you aren’t ready to talk yet - type response. 




MEM2020 said:


> Netgear,
> I give your wife huge props for opening this topic with you. It is a very frightening topic for many people.
> 
> I am NOT condoning her behavior on the train. That said, I really really believe that her discussion with you was intended to be the first step towards addressing the lack of passion in your marriage. She wasn’t trying to hurt your feelings, she was merely shining a bright light into your bedroom.
> 
> You want to ask some ballsy questions, here goes. And open with this....
> 
> Thankfully, you don’t pretend with me when we do connect. So I know it is a one sided experience. And now it’s time to tell me how much of that is caused by a lack of:
> - aggression
> - technique
> - pacing
> 
> You will get one of two outcomes: cooperation or defiance. If you get the latter, I would just shrug and say: It is sadistic to tell your partner that you desperately want passion and then stonewall them on working towards getting there.
> 
> Oh - welcome to ‘The Show’. The absolutely paramount rule for the man is to remain low affect. If you show anger (which is a secondary emotion caused by fear or pain) she will be less open with you. If you seem - at ease with all this - that will encourage her to be more open.
> 
> You want to be hitting the gym daily now. Not for muscle, rather for the emotional stability that comes with hard exercising.


----------



## MattMatt

@netgear64 please could you remind me what job or professional training your wife has?


----------



## netgear64

MattMatt said:


> @netgear64 please could you remind me what job or professional training your wife has?



She works as a notary public part-time out of the house. She's mobile with that job though, traveling within about an hour's drive to various places. The pay is decent, but it's more of an outlet for her, getting out of the house, kids and responsibilities. It's good for her.
She's just a HS grad, no college. No professional training.


----------



## SunCMars

Thank you.....not!

This thread has created WAR in my head.

Everyone is lining up...

For and against what she has done, what your wife has since expressed.

My HeadMates now are throwing rocks at each other.

Thank you.....not!





THM]- The Host, RD. 

Mortals suck at living.


----------



## MEM2020

It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do if only they had sufficient courage. This is proxy warfare, plain and simple. 

Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a low desire partner or a partner who has betrayed them in some sense. 

In the simplest sense, these posters are far more focused on punishing the (badly behaved) person who isn’t here, than helping the person who is here - take a hard look in the mirror. 

Shouldn’t be all that surprised though - destruction is far easier than creation and vengeance more immediately satisfying than the slower, steeper path of forgiveness.





netgear64 said:


> I'm sorry for glossing over every single question or concern. Honestly, I didn't know what to expect when I got on here. I've never been on one of these marriage advice forums. I've never felt compelled to get on one of these as I've never felt down like this and wanted a third-party opinion on a situation in my marriage. Sure, we've had our differences and arguments through the years, but nothing that we didn't work out quickly. However, this time I just felt as though I saw a real possibility there for her to walk away from our marriage. She didn't take it. But I'm afraid now of the mental 'what-if' that may linger in her head.
> 
> I know there has been much feedback on here cautioning me against her discussing this without our friends without me. While at the outset it makes me a little suspicious, I honestly believe she is trying to spare my feelings. She can see it on me since we got back, that I haven't been the same (I've lost 5 pounds in 10 days). With all due respect though, is it any different than what I'm doing right now on here, talking to a bunch of other people without my wife, about our marital problem?


----------



## MattMatt

netgear64 said:


> She works as a notary public part-time out of the house. She's mobile with that job though, traveling within about an hour's drive to various places. The pay is decent, but it's more of an outlet for her, getting out of the house, kids and responsibilities. It's good for her.
> She's just a HS grad, no college. No professional training.


Would distance learning qualifications for her help? Or local evening classes? 

Maybe courses you could both do together for fun, perhaps, like photography, cookery or art? This might help you re-establish a bond which could help reinvigorate your marriage in a way that would sidestep recent events.


----------



## Hicks

What you are struggling with is everyone is "assigning" thoughts to your wife based on what she did. All of them are in the realm of possibility.

But, really, it is you that can either assign meaning to episode this in a productive way or not. So far you are not. You are trying to figure out how it can best be ignored or put away.

So, here is one unproductive way to assign meaning to this: "Your wife finds you boring an unattractive and is about to cheat on you and walk away from the marriage. Your wife is cruel because she told you something that would undermine your security in your marriage." This is in the realm of possible but not a helpful way of looking at it for you.

Here is a productive way of looking at it: "Your wife actually has sexual thoughts and by telling you what happened she is asking for you to step up and improve the passion in your marriage. Your wife did not know exactly how to tell you this directly so she told you what happened on the train." There is alot of good you can do with that.

Now the reason it is a bad idea to meet with another couple either separately or alone... One of the reasons she would meet with them alone is to work with them to create a narrative that becomes 3 against 1 and you lose. Your wife will work with them to confirm that rejecting her husband sexually is normal and getting excited by a stranger is normal. You will have 3 people telling you this an you will believe it.

Now, here is a basic question. What are your wife's emotional needs and how are you meeting them? How do you provide her with emotional happiness? Your wife's sexuality is probably not "just there" like yours is. It probably happens in relation to something you would specifically provide her.

I really think rather than a random couple your should be looking for a counselor or a book that speaks to mutually fulfilling marriages. How you give fulfillment, how you receive it, how she gives it and how she receives it.


----------



## netgear64

MEM2020 said:


> It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do if only they had sufficient courage. This is proxy warfare, plain and simple.
> 
> Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a low desire partner or a partner who has betrayed them in some sense.
> 
> In the simplest sense, these posters are far more focused on punishing the (badly behaved) person who isn’t here, than helping the person who is here - take a hard look in the mirror.
> 
> Shouldn’t be all that surprised though - destruction is far easier than creation and vengeance more immediately satisfying than the slower, steeper path of forgiveness.



Wow, well said. Demolishing a building is much easier than renovating one. 

I think it's part of human nature to always look for accountability in a situation, which is why when catastrophes are reported in the media, people are always quick to look for the blame or point the finger at someone. It's a sense of in-born justice we have all been endowed with.

With my situation, I appreciate people opening me to various mindsets and things to look for, as well as productive questions to ask. However, at the end of the day, I am the one facing this. You all have the liberty to speak your mind with the aid of a keyboard and the anonymity of your identity. My words will be everlasting to her. I just want to make sure they're the right words and actions.


----------



## turnera

MEM2020 said:


> Netgear,
> The primary drawback to following the ‘punish and shame’ your wife is that she is likely to shut down on this topic.
> 
> On this thread, you have demonstrated the ability to be clear, concise and fearlessly honest. She will LOVE THAT if you do that with her - provided - you do a low affect delivery.
> 
> If it was me, this is what I would say. I’m glad you told me this. We both want more passion and ought try to find it with each other. Up until now, I’ve prioritized being considerate and polite, over passion. And you’ve chosen to avoid hurting my feelings by avoiding the topic. And then without warning or preamble I’d smack her bottom (the art is a light sting but no real pain) and say: fear is the enemy. And then I would shut the heck up. I mean I wouldn’t say a word. Nothing. But I would make eye contact and smile a bit.
> 
> You need her to be honest with you. For that to happen she has to see you as willing to take at least some risks. And that means you need to be willing to have conflict. She would not have told you about the guy on the train unless she wanted something from you. And it isn’t forgiveness, it’s aggression.


netgear, this post is SO important. If you make her feel bad, she'll stop sharing - BTDT. BUT...if you show that you're just human (of course it caught you off guard and panicked you) but that you're even more determined to make this the best marriage ever, I think she'll gladly go on that journey with you. The key to a successful marriage is communication; she showed she felt free to share with you; make sure it stays that way. (but don't forget to share how YOU feel, too)


----------



## ABHale

Netgear has your wife ever shown or expressed wanting you like she did the man on the train?


----------



## turnera

netgear, at the end of the day, the most important thing to fixing this situation is to renew y'all's passion. How do you do that? By letting her explore her sexuality - with YOU - as she ages. You guys are very religious, right? I assume Christian? IME, that means that she's been fed a diet of 'what good girls do' and 'what bad girls do' in her upbringing.

Which is fine...until she encounters a situation that falls into the 'what bad girls do' category - and she finds herself THRILLED. Her FOO tells her it's wrong to feel titillated; yet she does. So she talks to you. Now you have a crossroads - hide it and pretend your marriage will survive or open it up and examine it, together, and find ways to accept those feelings and explore how you can incorporate it into a more vigorous marriage.

When women are young adults, they're still following the 'rules' and thinking that's fine, that's all she needs. At that point, she believes anyone who would consider responding in a 'train incident' is a bad girl and something to be ashamed of (even if it's with her husband). But as they get older, they start learning to believe in themselves more, need their parents'/church's guidance as much. They start thinking, questioning, wondering what else there is in life. I personally think humans were meant to enjoy and explore their sexuality - at least a lot more than our churches want to allow. So as they age, they start questioning what they accepted when they were 20. 

Your wife got her wakeup call; now she's feeling those twinges of questioning and regret - what am I missing? And she loves you - or she wouldn't have told you. She's asking you to go on this path with her. What does that require? It requires you opening YOUR viewpoints, your beliefs, questioning your Nice Guy status, and working with her to enhance the marriage. It's often said women become more sexual in their late 30s-40s. Welcome that. Build on it.


----------



## netgear64

ABHale said:


> Netgear has your wife ever shown or expressed wanting you like she did the man on the train?



Yes, it's just been a long time, since before the kids.


----------



## Nucking Futs

You know what I see? I see a poster that still doesn't have the full truth of what happened on that train. I see a bunch of experienced posters, including 3 mods (yes, I know, posting as members) essentially advocating rug sweeping by pushing OP into the next step before he has the truth. Is the advice good? Maybe, depending on what actually happened on that train. But pushing OP into trying to solve the underlying problem that might have caused the crisis before even knowing the full truth of that crisis is putting the cart before the horse. Find out the truth then work from there, don't base your solution on supposition.

I've seen a bunch of people say this is not infidelity. You don't know that yet, you don't have the full truth yet.

I've also asked a few times whether it's fidelity. No one wants to answer that. So how about it netgear64? Knowing what you know, and knowing that you don't know everything yet, do you consider what your wife did fidelity?


----------



## Buddy400

netgear64 said:


> Wow, well said. Demolishing a building is much easier than renovating one.
> 
> I think it's part of human nature to always look for accountability in a situation, which is why when catastrophes are reported in the media, people are always quick to look for the blame or point the finger at someone. It's a sense of in-born justice we have all been endowed with.
> 
> With my situation, I appreciate people opening me to various mindsets and things to look for, as well as productive questions to ask. However, at the end of the day, I am the one facing this. You all have the liberty to speak your mind with the aid of a keyboard and the anonymity of your identity. My words will be everlasting to her. I just want to make sure they're the right words and actions.


The advice is all over the place.

My thoughts.......

I, personally, don't see what she did as "cheating" or even, necessarily meaning that she would cheat. However, it is disturbing the way that she said it was the potential negative effect on her family that kept her in check. This is a sign that she could be vulnerable in the future to a smooth talker who builds up her ego.

A woman's loss of libido in a Long Term Relationship is fairly normal. This usually isn't purposeful on the woman's part and it can be revived if both partner want that. Just going along with what she does isn't going to get you to where you want to be (or, probably, where she would prefer to be as well).

Your wife was naive and thought a European guy hitting on her on a train meant she was special. Actually, it seems as if that's standard behavior for European men.

I doubt that your wife told you about the situation in a conscious effort to change your behavior. She was either naive in not understanding how you would react or mistook you for a friend instead of a husband (a disturbing thought). However, it was good that she did as you are now aware that she IS a sexual being.

Most important is that you realize that your wife's situation not abnormal and there are things that can be done to improve your sex life if it matters enough to you.

No one ever gets what they want without letting their wants be known.

Let your wife know how important sex is to you. Learn about sexual desire in women and be prepared to unlearn a lot of what you think you know.

It's surprising how many wives don't realize how important sex is for men, especially when it comes to emotional attachment. Men tend to think that their wives know this and consciously ignore it.


----------



## MEM2020

She had enough faith and trust in you to be frighteningly honest. 

From the vantage point of having read hundreds of thousands of posts, I will make a few statistical observations. 
- The fact that your W doesn’t ‘pretend’ in bed with you is a good foundation for improvement 
- Her voluntary description of the series of unfortunate events - same thing - she trusts you enough to be honest

Conflict avoidance leads to the slow death of love and passion. Imagine a scenario where you say or do something that upsets her. Now - picture yourself saying: You’ll be fine, you are way tougher than you look.

Not in a sarcastic or snarky tone, in a calm, certain tone. 

Depending on how this plays going forward you need to consider whether you WANT to know the truth. 

I’ve asked M2: Do you actually WANT to be married to ME. Or do you just not want to be single or divorced?

In the times (during our near 30 years together) when she said: I don’t know 
I’ve always done the same thing. I spend a LOT more time out of the house. A the gym, or playing ping pong. This gives her space to think AND lets her know I don’t need her. Love her, yes. Need her, no. 





netgear64 said:


> Wow, well said. Demolishing a building is much easier than renovating one.
> 
> I think it's part of human nature to always look for accountability in a situation, which is why when catastrophes are reported in the media, people are always quick to look for the blame or point the finger at someone. It's a sense of in-born justice we have all been endowed with.
> 
> With my situation, I appreciate people opening me to various mindsets and things to look for, as well as productive questions to ask. However, at the end of the day, I am the one facing this. You all have the liberty to speak your mind with the aid of a keyboard and the anonymity of your identity. My words will be everlasting to her. I just want to make sure they're the right words and actions.


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> netgear, at the end of the day, the most important thing to fixing this situation is to renew y'all's passion. How do you do that? By letting her explore her sexuality - with YOU - as she ages. You guys are very religious, right? I assume Christian? IME, that means that she's been fed a diet of 'what good girls do' and 'what bad girls do' in her upbringing.


Biblically speaking, sex between H and W, it is ok(encouraged) to fly the freak flag. Man says something else.


----------



## MEM2020

I liked all of this save for the last bit. His wife definitely knows sex is important to him. She has it, mainly for his well being. 

He needs to show his wife that he wants HER to get more out of their sexual relationship. He wants HER to feel desire and passion. And you know, ideally experience sex the way he does with an intense finish. 






Buddy400 said:


> The advice is all over the place.
> 
> My thoughts.......
> 
> I, personally, don't see what she did as "cheating" or even, necessarily meaning that she would cheat. However, it is disturbing the way that she said it was the potential negative effect on her family that kept her in check. This is a sign that she could be vulnerable in the future to a smooth talker who builds up her ego.
> 
> A woman's loss of libido in a Long Term Relationship is fairly normal. This usually isn't purposeful on the woman's part and it can be revived if both partner want that. Just going along with what she does isn't going to get you to where you want to be (or, probably, where she would prefer to be as well).
> 
> Your wife was naive and thought a European guy hitting on her on a train meant she was special. Actually, it seems as if that's standard behavior for European men.
> 
> I doubt that your wife told you about the situation in a conscious effort to change your behavior. She was either naive in not understanding how you would react or mistook you for a friend instead of a husband (a disturbing thought). However, it was good that she did as you are now aware that she IS a sexual being.
> 
> Most important is that you realize that your wife's situation not abnormal and there are things that can be done to improve your sex life if it matters enough to you.
> 
> No one ever gets what they want without letting their wants be known.
> 
> Let your wife know how important sex is to you. Learn about sexual desire in women and be prepared to unlearn a lot of what you think you know.
> 
> It's surprising how many wives don't realize how important sex is for men, especially when it comes to emotional attachment. Men tend to think that their wives know this and consciously ignore it.


----------



## Yeswecan

netgear64 said:


> Yes, it's just been a long time, since before the kids.


That is a tough nut to crack. Why is that? Have you asked? Why after kids did the passion for you die off? Perhaps the usual rut a marriage get into. Kids, work and no time. We all have been there. 

You have the opportunity to change that and for the better. A closeness never experienced before. I understand the position, worked on it and have come out with a marriage like we never thought we could have.


----------



## Buddy400

MEM2020 said:


> I liked all of this save for the last bit. His wife definitely knows sex is important to him. She has it, mainly for his well being.


I base my opinion on women here and elsewhere who have said as much. Mary35, SimplyAmourous, GettingIt2, Catherine602 ** for starters (I should keep a list), other sites (ForgivenWife, others) and my wife (though that wasn't sexless related).

Perhaps I could change "she doesn't know that sex is important to him" to "she doesn't know that willing, involved sex is important to him"? 

** Skipping the mention @'s since I don't feel the need to try and lure them out of retirement.


----------



## netgear64

Nucking Futs said:


> You know what I see? I see a poster that still doesn't have the full truth of what happened on that train. I see a bunch of experienced posters, including 3 mods (yes, I know, posting as members) essentially advocating rug sweeping by pushing OP into the next step before he has the truth. Is the advice good? Maybe, depending on what actually happened on that train. But pushing OP into trying to solve the underlying problem that might have caused the crisis before even knowing the full truth of that crisis is putting the cart before the horse. Find out the truth then work from there, don't base your solution on supposition.
> 
> I've seen a bunch of people say this is not infidelity. You don't know that yet, you don't have the full truth yet.
> 
> I've also asked a few times whether it's fidelity. No one wants to answer that. So how about it netgear64? Knowing what you know, and knowing that you don't know everything yet, do you consider what your wife did fidelity?



Without the possibility at this point of knowing everything (while she assures me there's nothing left to tell), I would have to assume that it was fidelity verbally and physically with regard to this other man. However, the heart is treacherous and deep down, I believe that she succumbed to some emotional and mental infidelity. She has admitted that too, by expressing her feelings to me.


----------



## personofinterest

sunsetmist said:


> I'm wondering how much conservative Christian backgrounds affect your marriage dynamic?
> 
> Your 'gentlemanly' approach to sex also suggests the above. Talk to a mature couple is often well-meaning advice in a church setting. However, I believe after years of observation, this is an error and professional help should be used.
> 
> Romance, intimacy, connection are extremely important to women--be an outrageous flirt. I believe sex in marriage is one of God's greatest gifts. Sorry if I'm way off in my musing about y'all.


I agree


----------



## personofinterest

Deejo said:


> So ... welcome to TAM.
> 
> Land of hyperbole and overreaction.
> 
> Do keep in mind you are on a site with a number of contributors who have been directly impacted by infidelity. Thus ... input is often colored by experience.
> 
> Do keep in mind you are under no obligation to respond to anyone's questions at all. You seek input, or read through posts and learn. All up to you.
> 
> That said, I do hope you have read MEM's posts.
> 
> No need to answer this ... and you may have already. I'm thinking that you shouldn't be ruminating over being hurt by the fact that your wife shared all of these details with you. You should be wondering WHY she did. Just think, if she just kept the whole event under wraps, you would be none the wiser ... and not concerned about the state of your marriage. And to that end, as has been pointed out ... she wants something from you. Whether or not you want to explore what that is, and provide it, is up to you.


Truth

We want a spouse to be honest and transparent, and we want to lynch them when they are.


----------



## personofinterest

MEM2020 said:


> It seems as if many folks prefer to put more effort into persuading other folks in similar situations to do the thing they would do if only they had sufficient courage. This is proxy warfare, plain and simple.
> 
> Typically that means either severely punishing or leaving a low desire partner or a partner who has betrayed them in some sense.
> 
> In the simplest sense, these posters are far more focused on punishing the (badly behaved) person who isn’t here, than helping the person who is here - take a hard look in the mirror.
> 
> Shouldn’t be all that surprised though - destruction is far easier than creation and vengeance more immediately satisfying than the slower, steeper path of forgiveness.


This is the most true thing I have ever read on a forum


----------



## wmn1

I have to agree with SunC, MattMatt and Philly. 

I am having trouble wrapping my head around this thread.

OP, you are hurt but more passive than many other people would be. I feel you should use your anger constructively.

I also disagree with those who blame you for the supposed 'lack of passion' in your marriage. An experienced poster here rightly said that you only own 50% of those problems. The other 50% is on her. She owns part of the problem and , in agreement with Nucking, she has put herself into a potential purgatory where infidelity could be lurking around the corner. 

The correct answer IMO is that she was wrong and her telling you her thoughts doesn't make her a hero. It would have been wrong for her not to tell you what happened or her feelings but at the same time, her being open to this other guy and sharing those thoughts with you was like salt in the wound. 

Plainly, she was wrong. She doesn't get to contribute to the problem over the years and then be allowed to have feelings for the other man. It doesn't work that way if she is to be in a healthy marriage.

Finally, I get where you explained your sexual past. There is a fine line between trying to motivate her to increase sexual activity with you too much and not pushing enough. You called it respecting her feelings. I think that is admirable. The fact that she may not respect that enough is on her. She should be appreciative of your respecting her feelings. 

I agree with the others. I am concerned about her wanting to meet the other couples alone. Is there a bombshell revelation in there ? Is she trying to control the situation by prepping the others and controlling the narrative ? Or is she trying to explain it away before you can in order to face less heat during a meeting ? I think it's a bad idea. The only problem you face is that if there is 'more', it may not come out in the meeting because you are there. Damed if you do damed if you don't.

I wish you the best in dealing with this situation but IMO you have to be decisive and handle this situation with speed and assertiveness.


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> Without the possibility at this point of knowing everything (while she assures me there's nothing left to tell), I would have to assume that it was fidelity verbally and physically with regard to this other man. However, the heart is treacherous and deep down, I believe that she succumbed to some emotional and mental infidelity. She has admitted that too, by expressing her feelings to me.


You and I have a fundamental difference in understanding of the definition of fidelity. Good luck to you.


----------



## personofinterest

> The correct answer IMO is that she was wrong and her telling you her thoughts doesn't make her a hero. It would have been wrong for her not to tell you what happened or her feelings but at the same time, her being open to this other guy and sharing those thoughts with you was like salt in the wound.


This is a good point. Her being honest is a "good" thing, but it doesn't make what she did and allowed good. If I am honest about telling my husband I spent the house payment on shoes, I guess that is honest. But I really shouldn't have spent the house payment on shoes.

That said, there is a definite internet tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater using IED devices and pitchforks.

Your wife had VERY poor boundaries and DID betray you. Your wife did not have an "affair."

So there needs to be some work done by her, and there needs to be a wake-up call.

But I thinking nuking and divorcing is.......a but much.
*
What has SHE offered to do and change to make sure this never happens again?*


----------



## wmn1

personofinterest said:


> This is a good point. Her being honest is a "good" thing, but it doesn't make what she did and allowed good. If I am honest about telling my husband I spent the house payment on shoes, I guess that is honest. But I really shouldn't have spent the house payment on shoes.
> 
> That said, there is a definite internet tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater using IED devices and pitchforks.
> 
> Your wife had VERY poor boundaries and DID betray you. Your wife did not have an "affair."
> 
> So there needs to be some work done by her, and there needs to be a wake-up call.
> 
> But I thinking nuking and divorcing is.......a but much.
> *
> What has SHE offered to do and change to make sure this never happens again?*



I agree with everything you said here. Honest is good but doesn't absolve. Nuking the marriage over this would be very excessive and unnecessary and your last question is spot on. What is she prepared to do to ensure there are no more betrayals ?

OP has this early. Snuff out the problem quickly and decisively.


----------



## netgear64

personofinterest said:


> This is a good point. Her being honest is a "good" thing, but it doesn't make what she did and allowed good. If I am honest about telling my husband I spent the house payment on shoes, I guess that is honest. But I really shouldn't have spent the house payment on shoes.
> 
> That said, there is a definite internet tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater using IED devices and pitchforks.
> 
> Your wife had VERY poor boundaries and DID betray you. Your wife did not have an "affair."
> 
> So there needs to be some work done by her, and there needs to be a wake-up call.
> 
> But I thinking nuking and divorcing is.......a but much.
> *
> What has SHE offered to do and change to make sure this never happens again?*



I think this occasion WAS the wake-up call. The emotional attention she received was enough to clue her into what could've happened and she stopped it. She saw the inevitable and it shocked her into the possibility of the infidelity that we've only ever heard about, but never personally experienced ourselves. She allowed the flattery because she liked how she felt, but it was in no way an "affair".

Obviously, "nuking" our relationship is a bit extreme. As to what she has offered to do and change, really it has opened up our communication more than ever, and she has is willing to discuss with others for constructive help. I would be more concerned if she just wanted to sweep it under the rug. But at least she has demonstrated to me a willingness to improve our marriage/passion/intimacy/spark, whatever you want to call it.


----------



## MattMatt

wmn1 said:


> I agree with everything you said here. Honest is good but doesn't absolve. Nuking the marriage over this would be very excessive and unnecessary and your last question is spot on. What is she prepared to do to ensure there are no more betrayals ?
> 
> OP has this early. Snuff out the problem quickly and decisively.


Divorce over a mistake of this magnitude would be ridiculous.

It could be the start of the next successful chapter of your marriage @netgear64, using your wife's honesty, painful though it might be, as the basis.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
If he lived downstreet or worked with N2, I might support some type paramilitary style interrogation such as others on this thread encourage. If she had his contact number or you had caught her, stead of the opposite whereby she came to you and confessed not just the mechanics but the emotions of the event, I might go along with the idea of intense questioning. 

Being as none of those things are true, I feel obligated to share that these steps are often offered up to the injured party by board members in the spirit of transparency, though they feel to me like a way to punish and shame and express ever greater levels of distrust toward a partner who voluntarily confessed and by doing so has placed herself in a vulnerable position. 

A confession made I would wager because she loves and trusts you, both emotions you have earned by way of being a strong life partner. 

Passion, while beautiful comes and goes in a marriage. N2 seems very committed to you. She voluntarily comes to your bed once a week or so being grateful for the life you have created. This type gratitude cannot be counterfeited. 

She loves you and wants more passion. Further interrogation of her mis-step will only make her question whether you fear the man who is now long gone, or the passion itself. 






netgear64 said:


> Without the possibility at this point of knowing everything (while she assures me there's nothing left to tell), I would have to assume that it was fidelity verbally and physically with regard to this other man. However, the heart is treacherous and deep down, I believe that she succumbed to some emotional and mental infidelity. She has admitted that too, by expressing her feelings to me.


----------



## MEM2020

Amen brother.




MattMatt said:


> Divorce over a mistake of this magnitude would be ridiculous.
> 
> It could be the start of the next successful chapter of your marriage @netgear64, using your wife's honesty, painful though it might be, as the basis.


----------



## MEM2020

Not to split hairs - I really wouldn’t use the word infidelity for this. This was a momentary betrayal via a lack of boundary enforcement. 

This guy kind of socially engineered his way past her normal defenses because she had little familiarity with this type of playful, persistent, public and frankly ludicrous (on his part) behavior. At some level she was thinking this can’t really be happening. 




netgear64 said:


> Without the possibility at this point of knowing everything (while she assures me there's nothing left to tell), I would have to assume that it was fidelity verbally and physically with regard to this other man. However, the heart is treacherous and deep down, I believe that she succumbed to some emotional and mental infidelity. She has admitted that too, by expressing her feelings to me.


----------



## TRy

Deleted


----------



## ABHale

netgear64 said:


> Yes, it's just been a long time, since before the kids.


I say this is why it is hurting so much.

I can understand your pain. My wife stopped the relationship after we started having kids. We did nothing without the kids. She would always say no to letting family or friends watch the kids for us to have a date night or weekend getaway. Sex became as needed after our third was born. I finally stopped asking her out for a date by then and checked out myself. Things came to a head about 6 years ago when she got mad and showed that she didn’t trust someone or myself, she says she didn’t trust the girl. I fumed over what she had done in front of the kids and finally exploded on her. Not my finest moment by it definitely got my point across. I told her I was finished with the marriage. Explained everything that I had been feeling from the time my oldest was born. That I was done trying to make it work. She said she wasn’t. We went to a marriage counselor and we both told our side of things. She asked my wife if all of this was true and my wife said yes. She then asked my wife how she expected to keep the relationship with me her while never putting anything into it. All my wife did was cry. She has been trying her best to mend what has been broke ever since then. So things just can’t be fixed. There were other things that had gone on, never anything like your wife has done that I know of. If it had, we would have been divorced by now. 

You need a good marriage counselor that knows how important a physical relationship is in a marriage.


----------



## netgear64

MEM2020 said:


> Not to split hairs - I really wouldn’t use the word infidelity for this. This was a momentary betrayal via a lack of boundary enforcement.
> 
> This guy kind of socially engineered his way past her normal defenses because she had little familiarity with this type of playful, persistent, public and frankly ludicrous (on his part) behavior. At some level she was thinking this can’t really be happening.



Bingo!


----------



## Adelais

I would call it an infidelity, albeit a minor infidelity, because once she realized what was happening she not only went along for the ride, but willingly reciprocated.

Netgear, She loved the excitement of it, and told you about it because she wants to have that excitement with you. Perhaps she wanted to make you a little jealous in order to get you out of your gentlemanly shell. She wants you to show your attraction and desire for her more openly, not necessarily violently. That guy was not violent or scary. He was open, assertive and persistant. That is what she wants. As I type that....that's what I want, lol. That is what most women want.


----------



## MEM2020

The post below is what makes TAM great. Both the analysis and totally unfiltered description of a shared experience is the best part of human nature. 




ABHale said:


> I say this is why it is hurting so much.
> 
> I can understand your pain. My wife stopped the relationship after we started having kids. We did nothing without the kids. She would always say no to letting family or friends watch the kids for us to have a date night or weekend getaway. Sex became as needed after our third was born. I finally stopped asking her out for a date by then and checked out myself. Things came to a head about 6 years ago when she got mad and showed that she didn’t trust someone or myself, she says she didn’t trust the girl. I fumed over what she had done in front of the kids and finally exploded on her. Not my finest moment by it definitely got my point across. I told her I was finished with the marriage. Explained everything that I had been feeling from the time my oldest was born. That I was done trying to make it work. She said she wasn’t. We went to a marriage counselor and we both told our side of things. She asked my wife if all of this was true and my wife said yes. She then asked my wife how she expected to keep the relationship with me her while never putting anything into it. All my wife did was cry. She has been trying her best to mend what has been broke ever since then. So things just can’t be fixed. There were other things that had gone on, never anything like your wife has done that I know of. If it had, we would have been divorced by now.
> 
> You need a good marriage counselor that knows how important a physical relationship is in a marriage.


----------



## netgear64

Araucaria said:


> I would call it an infidelity, albeit a minor infidelity, because once she realized what was happening she not only went along for the ride, but willingly reciprocated.
> 
> Netgear, She loved the excitement of it, and told you about it because she wants to have that excitement with you. Perhaps she wanted to make you a little jealous in order to get you out of your gentlemanly shell. She wants you to show your attraction and desire for her more openly, not necessarily violently. That guy was not violent or scary. He was open, assertive and persistant. That is what she wants. As I type that....that's what I want, lol. That is what most women want.



How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.

I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


----------



## Nucking Futs

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


What's wrong with coming off horny to your wife?


----------



## MEM2020

Araucaria,
Quoting from the West Wing: There is no:
Small - Infidelity anymore than 
Healthy - Botulism or
Child safe - Plutonium

And you left the two key ingredients of sexual rocket fuel out of your ingredient list below. 
- Being somewhat aggressive and more importantly 
- Being playful

Playfulness may be one of the single most attractive qualities an a marriage. In just shy of 30 years I have never laid an angry hand on M2, nor used my size/strength to intimidate. 

The playful wrestling and ‘threat’ to spank her, this is solely foreplay. 

Netgear - we handicap the wrestling via a rule set. 
- My eyes and throat are off limits - that’s it - striking, biting (no skin breaking), scratching are all allowed
- I cannot strike save for open hand to the region connecting her upper thigh to lower back

She does try to go for my balls - because it is not possible to protect the equipment whilst pinning her. 

ALL marriages have small betrayals, not all marriages have infidelity. 




Araucaria said:


> I would call it an infidelity, albeit a minor infidelity, because once she realized what was happening she not only went along for the ride, but willingly reciprocated.
> 
> Netgear, She loved the excitement of it, and told you about it because she wants to have that excitement with you. Perhaps she wanted to make you a little jealous in order to get you out of your gentlemanly shell. She wants you to show your attraction and desire for her more openly, not necessarily violently. That guy was not violent or scary. He was open, assertive and persistant. That is what she wants. As I type that....that's what I want, lol. That is what most women want.


----------



## Robert22205

She never knew the OM....he got lucky and taped into/triggered her fantasy lover. He didn't need to sell himself as a life partner he just said enough to trigger her fantasy. 

Now she knows it's a dangerously tempting thing to do or allow.

Plus most women and men underestimate the pain caused to the spouse by flirting or affairs. NOW she knows for sure that just thinking about an affair is devastating to you. 

LISTEN: Here's the something extra that you offer (the difference between you and 'any' other man) - YOU LOVE HER!

You guys have plenty to build on. Just stay on topic and don't accept more than 50% of the blame for marriage issues. I wish you both well.


----------



## StillSearching

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


Read "The Rational Male" by Rollo Tomassi
You really need it.


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,

M2 HATES any explicit expression of arousal until we are in bed and she gets turned on. She hates it. Always has. Once she is turned on than I let her see how wound up I am. But not before. 

But being physically playful/aggressive - she doesn’t just like that - she loves it. 

Simple game: 
- I think there is something on your knee. Touching her knee. 
- Pausing - I think it is on your thigh - touching her inner thigh softly for a few seconds 
- Hmmm - guess I was wrong - everything seems fine 

And then go back to whatever you were doing. The goal here is to play some games with her and find out what she likes. 

M2 is like anyone she has her likes and dislikes. The touch has to be firm but not rough. To light a touch is ticklish or annoying. 

And the thigh - 3-5 seconds. That’s all. If I say: Hmmm - guess I was wrong - everything seems fine 
And she says: are you sure, I either check a little more or say - in a while we will be alone and I can check more thoroughly 






netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
My daughter married a guy who talks like you. He is very smart, and very good. A great addition to the family. 

The excitement comes from being unpredictable and focused on her reaction. When I touch M2 it’s a give not a take, not even a request. I touch her in a way that I know feels good to her. If something happens - ok - if not - ok. 

When I say: I love you, it is not hoping to hear her echo me. I don’t expect her to do anything other than seem happy that I feel that way. 

My touch is the same. It is not needy. 





netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


----------



## MEM2020

Netgear,
The most important thing in all this - is that you pay attention to N2’s feedback. If I touch M2 this or that way and she breathes funny or sighs I note that. If I get no reaction or a negative reaction I note that. 

And you my man are already different than the guy showed up and started this thread. 

That guy was focused on a historical event notable by it’s brevity. The new version of that fellow seems to be looking forward into the future and asking how to steer in the direction he wants to go. 

The OP was focused on questions of punishment, the new guy seems to be prioritizing improvement. 

Brief confession: At the point of saying our vows, I would self grade as follows:
sense of humor: A
playfulness: D

M2 has brought my playfulness grade up to a B+, which is a huge quality of life thing. If I can learn that, anyone can. 





netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


----------



## turnera

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


First, what's wrong with being horny? Men are horny. Have you been pretending your whole marriage that you aren't? If so, that's you doing your wife a disservice - being dishonest. 

I think you'll want to find a good marriage therapist and start going at least once a month. Not because your marriage is messed up, but he/she can help you two learn to ramp up your communication to the next level. My guess is you two have spent your marriage being polite to each other, not totally truthful, and therefore not really examining what you really want - just what's expected.

Now, as to how to be assertive, persistent, I've already given you several ways to do that - read some romance novels to see what turns a woman on. I'm not kidding. Women line up to read these books every.single.month for a reason - they give them a fantasy into the world they wish they had, where they can have sex without guilt. And how does that happen? Cos the men in the stories are almost universally strong silent romantic persistent T-shaped aggressive (in a good way) men who have a sense of humor and take what they want. If the man is that aggressive, how can the woman resist? It's a little play that females have run for thousands of years, and it's there for a reason. Just like men fantasize about Sports Illustrated models in their bed who make them feel lucky, women fantasize about these types of men
who make them feel desired.

Aside from that, read Married Man Sex Life Primer; it's kind of an extension on NMMNG but more about upping your sex life.

Then make sure you're hitting the gym and building your body.

Finally, be MENTALLY strong as well: focus on not being beholden to her. Women are attracted to men who are hard to get; kind of hard when you're married, but as has been said, you get that by not hovering, not begging, not avoiding sex so as not to seem pushy, by pushing for what you want, and by being willing to walk away if your needs aren't being met (or if she's Love Busting you).


----------



## turnera

Mem is so right. You have to be in touch with what makes her tick - and what ticks her off.

My H KNOWS if he dares come up from behind me and grab my private parts, he'll not only get an elbow (cos of my own childhood issues) but he'll also put me out of the mood for sex for the rest of the night. OTOH, if he massages my legs or hands or feet (I have chronic pain), I can let him slowly work his way up to other things he has in mind.

We can give all this advice, but you have to pick and choose what works with her.


----------



## ABHale

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?



Just start staring at her. When she asked what is up, smile then throw her over your shoulder and carry her to your bedroom.

Or ask what you can do to get her in the mood. 

Full body massage works well. 

Taking a shower or bath together. 

Talk about it and do it.


----------



## Buddy400

turnera said:


> *First, what's wrong with being horny? Men are horny. Have you been pretending your whole marriage that you aren't? If so, that's you doing your wife a disservice - being dishonest. *


Quite true.

One of my favorites, Dr Psych Mom says the she recommends to married men she consults who are looking to improve their sex lives to escalate dominance in bed until the wife complains. She claims that this usually results in things going much farther than the men ever would have thought.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

i thank you for the answer. The thread overwhlemed you and I'll check in later because I really hope it works out.

Your few words are important though, no one goes from zero to "I thought she might walk away." There is more you are choosing to keep to yourself and that's fine. 

Telling you to be wary and not buy the ever changing and more indepth story is not calling for divorce. Also, saving your feelings has two meanings. One more, you both need to work at the passion, don't let people blame you for the lack of sex. 

Good luck.


----------



## Adelais

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?


My husband does what MEM2020 described in his post.

Another example is that we are sitting in the car. I'm wearing a button down blouse. My husband notices a bit of cleavage that I'm not aware of (I don't show cleavage on purpose), and he will reach over for something on the other side of me and pause to look down my shirt and say, "Mmmm. I like what I see" and then go on with whatever he is doing.

Or he will see a crumb on my blouse and reach over and say, "Here, let me help you with that" and take it off, with a caress to my breast.

If he is walking up the stairs behind me, or if I walk down the stairs and he can slightly see up my skirt, he reaches up to my leg, (not all the way to my crotch) and says "Mmm. I want to see more of those." Then he goes about his business.

He is very creative with his "helpfulness" that gets him a handful of me.

He basically feels free to look, touch, gently squeeze, and make comments to me that would get another man slapped. He's not nasty or degrading, he is complimentary and admiring and knows he has the right to touch what is his. I like that he is attracted to me and makes passes. He doesn't just come up out of the blue with an erection and grab me in my private places, but if he did that once in a while I wouldn't mind at all.

Once in a while he come up to me and take my hand and put it on his crotch and let me know he has an erection. That doesn't make me jump his bones (boner lol) but it lets me know that he is interested in me. We might have sex later on...not as often as he would like though. Read all the complaints from men here. Most would like to have sex every day or more often. A couple of times a week is good for me...sometimes less. But knowing he is always interested in me makes me feel good about us. I'm sure he'd like more, but he's not even home much of the time anyway.

Going on dates also helps build the intimacy. A date is not a guarantee for sex, but the closer we are and the more fun we have together, the more we (I) want to have sex. He wants it anytime. I'm like a crock pot. It takes hours of good experiences to get my brain thinking that way. Plus we still have children around, so we can't make love in the kitchen, living room, etc. We have to wait until we go to bed. Sometimes we pretend we need to take a midday nap. I'm sure our teenagers sometimes wonder if we're really napping.

**Our children do not witness these sexual advances, but sometimes my husband takes risks, which I don't appreciate. He's sure they can't see, but I don't like to take chances. It think it would be gross to them.

ETA: We are conservative believers that Jesus died for the sins of the world and rose again. The Father made us male and female sexual beings and said: "It is good." We don't believe that flirting and sexual advances are sin within a marriage covenant.


----------



## MattMatt

MODERATION NOTE:-

Please! Stop with the threadjacks!


----------



## Adelais

netgear, now that your wife has shown that she does have sexual feelings, and not just in the bedroom, you might get honest with her.

"Mrs. netgear64, I have always had sexual thoughts toward you throught the day but I have repressed them for your sake. Since you clearly like sexual advances outside the bedroom as evidenced by your response to the Italian, I'm not going to hold back my own thoughts anymore. You can expect me to be more demonstrative of my feelings and thoughts from now on."

Then start to act on your thoughts. Don't go overboard and grab her in the crotch or rear, or squeeze her hard, but brush your hands against her (breasts, legs, bottom, etc.) and say the thoughts that cross your mind, smile and walk away. Stop holding back. She will get used to your openness over time. If she acts disgusted, you have a different problem going on in your marriage.


----------



## turnera

What? Why was my reply a T/J and removed? I was agreeing with Araucaria? I was agreeing and giving additional examples.


----------



## wmn1

As Philly said Net, don't let anyone blame you. It takes two to tango and you weren't the one who crossed the boundary. Good luck man


----------



## Adelais

Your wife now knows that her own sexuality can be triggered by men who are not her husband. All women can have sexual attraction to men other than their husband. 

A couple of times since being married I have realized that different men have made my heart race. It must be pheromones coming off the man that my nose and then my brain are sensing, because I don't lust in my mind over men who aren't my husband. One of them was not even attractive, but something was hapening inside of me that I couldn't control. When I have sensed that happening I make point of staying away from that man from then on. I am a human, and know what I am capable of if I don't keep a good distance from the "chemistry."

Potiphar's wife must have been very beautiful. When she began to come on strongly to Joseph he got away from her so quickly that he didn't stop to get his cloak. He must have known he had to get away ASAP before his body ruled his brain.

Your wife needs to be aware of her sexuality and in the future not let herself get caught up with a man other than you if she wants to keep her marriage intact.


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## MattMatt

turnera said:


> What? Why was my reply a T/J and removed? I was agreeing with Araucaria? I was agreeing and giving additional examples.


Because your post was replying to a post that was deleted.


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## MEM2020

Yes to all this. Lust is easily felt for others. 




Araucaria said:


> Your wife now knows that her own sexuality can be triggered by men who are not her husband. All women can have sexual attraction to men other than their husband.
> 
> A couple of times since being married I have realized that different men have made my heart race. It must be pheromones coming off the man that my nose and then my brain are sensing, because I don't lust in my mind over men who aren't my husband. One of them was not even attractive, but something was hapening inside of me that I couldn't control. When I have sensed that happening I make point of staying away from that man from then on. I am a human, and know what I am capable of if I don't keep a good distance from the "chemistry."
> 
> Potiphar's wife must have been very beautiful. When she began to come on strongly to Joseph he got away from her so quickly that he didn't stop to get his cloak. He must have known he had to get away ASAP before his body ruled his brain.
> 
> Your wife needs to be aware of her sexuality and in the future not let herself get caught up with a man other than you if she wants to keep her marriage intact.


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## Chaparral

netgear64 said:


> How do you have that "excitement" again with someone you've seen everyday for the past 20 years? I know I'll never be able to give what that OM did, because what he gave was himself, a different person. I am not different, I am the one she's used to.
> 
> I want to be a gentleman to her, but how do I be more "assertive, persistent" without coming off desperate or horny?



This response indicates you did not download the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. Go to amazon and download it now.
It is the first or second most recommended book on this site . Also get the other book too. NOT JUST FRIENDS. Just do it .


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## Chaparral

THE FIVE LOVE LANGUAGES is a book where you both can see what the other desires in your relationship.


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