# Nice Guys...



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I read an awful lot of NMMNG comments and see a lot of nice guys who post and aren't appreciated. I 'get it' that sometimes a woman wants to be 'taken' sometimes or wants the man to be decisive or protective but I would give anything for a "nice guy".

I'm sure it's my history but being married for 13 years to a narcissistic, type A (type H, actually) Alpha male just completely turned me off to Alphas. 

Am I the only woman who LIKES the idea of a nice guy? Someone considerate, helpful and thoughtful. Some other woman's trash is my treasure.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

It's a terminology thing. I think a lot of women like nice guys, but it's better to think of the NMMNG "nice guy" as a doormat.

Not too many women like a doormat.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I think that's right
Despite what some would have you believe 'nice guy' does not mean 'p*ssy whipped sap'
I want a man to treat me with the same respect I treat him - no more no less

any alpha type who thinks he has to treat me like sh*t to get my attention can do one


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't know about others but, I went through a good portion of my life as a "Nice Guy" (trying to please everyone and always wanting to be liked) and it didn't serve me well in my relationships or career. I still can't figure out how I got my wife to marry me and stay with me so long with how I behaved during the first 15 years of our marriage (depression, anxiety, no self confidence). What changed me was some career coaching and self help that I went through to improve my earnings prospects. That and getting away from my immediate family did the trick. Both of those were a 180 for me. Now I think I'm very much an A Type (hopefully not an AH type) and I really think my wife respects me more for it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm married to a nice guy and to be honest with you even I didn't know how to deal with one when I finally got him. Yes I'd had a string of bad boys before him. You'd think being with a nice guy is easy but I assure you it's not. 

Most put your needs above theirs which sounds good in theory but when they begin to feel resentment towards you for it - its a problem.

Most won't tell you how they feel so you'll feel emotionally neglected.

Most won't tell you when something bothers them so you'll have to become skilled at mind reading and pray again that resentment doesn't creep in before you figure out what's wrong.

Many won't be highly sexual because they have so much shame connected to sex. Oh they are VERY sexual all right but they hide it from those closest to them out of fear.

Others become passive aggressive because they are bored, unhappy and angry. But again you won't know any of this but you will be treated badly in an underhanded way.

In a nutshell the classic nice guys are nothing but nice. Read NMMNG and you'll see exactly what I mean.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

No, I love my husband. He's very nice and extremely supportive when it comes to me. I do the same in return. My husband drops everything when I need/emergencies and stays by my side for however long it takes. I'm always telling him how much I appreciate him and emailing fun and flirty things. I'm truly very lucky to have such a wonderful husband. Even though he's a really nice guy, he's nobody's doormat. He's confident, secure and he always has put my needs before his own.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I read an awful lot of NMMNG comments and see a lot of nice guys who post and aren't appreciated. I 'get it' that sometimes a woman wants to be 'taken' sometimes or wants the man to be decisive or protective but I would give anything for a "nice guy".
> 
> I'm sure it's my history but being married for 13 years to a narcissistic, type A (type H, actually) Alpha male just completely turned me off to Alphas.
> 
> Am I the only woman who LIKES the idea of a nice guy? Someone considerate, helpful and thoughtful. Some other woman's trash is my treasure.


After enough of what i think can be considered "super alpha male" types to last me a lifetime,I crave the nice guy.

I don't know much about the whole Alpha discussion,it all sounds like a lot of over thinking at times. Hopefully I don't get roasted for expressing this but I wish men would be themselves and women would be themselves alsf course,if you have mental problems,you need to get help for that before you can be a suitable partner for anyone. If asked my answer wouldn't be "i must have an alpha male!" because truthfully,I haven't read enough about it to know exactly what it is other than knowing what other people think about it.

I need a man to treat me as great as I treat him. That includes all the compliments,all the sweetness,all the loving gestures.It includes the thoughtfulness and affection,time,devotion,and appreciation.

I don't need a protector.I don't need a provider.I expect my man to be secure enough to know it's ok that we share responsibilities in all aspects of life.I don't like traditional male/female jobs in the home...if I'm taking the trash out and handling my foster dogs,feel free to empty the dishwasher without feeling like you've lost your man card.

I need a partner for wild monkey sex,sweet slow loving making,friendship and affection.I need someone I can trust.Someone who earns respect rather than demanding it.Someone who understands I will take care of my appearance and body for as long as able so I expect I would be bright enough to pick a man who shows they do the same.They should do it not for me but for themselves because I'm certainly not taking care of my lovely body for anyone but me.

It might not work for anyone here.But these are a few things that I need in order for a relationship to keep an open heart,open mind,and open legs

I NEED the nice guy.There's a firm difference between being the nice guy and being the doormat guy.If I'm wrong,the nice guy will tell me in a reasonable way and help me understand his point of view. If I'm wrong,a doormat guy won't say a word...everyone loves being right but no one wants a yes man. Nice guys ARE NOT yes men.They simply know how to express themselves better than any other type of man IMHO.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I'd take a nice guy over one of those alpha bulldogs anyday.


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## ATC529R (Oct 31, 2012)

Men and women are NICE when they are happy.-except for the real A holes anyway.

and the nice girl who tries to please everyone (like my wife) is NOOOO friggin picnic!

putting up with we have to go to this function and that because we were invited and it's the right thing to do.

asking you 5 times what you want. I really don't care, what I really want is for her to just make the decision etc...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

I agree it is a disconnect involving what a "nice guy" is. Mavesh hits it on the head when she writes about the bad type of "nice guy". This is the guy that thinks that being nice enough will get them loved. That people will see these sacrifices and appreciate them. The problem is that it does not work over the long haul. When one person is always sacrificing, the other has a naturally tendancy to just accept that. That breeds disrespect and resentment.

I think (hope) what most women want is a nice man. A man who is generally nice, treats them well, and will sacrifice for them. But they also want a man who knows what he wants, is true to himself, makes his needs clear, and who stands up for himself when she treats him bad (because as a human, there will be times when she does, just like there will be times when he does).


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

My exH is Super AlphaMan & I left him. However he was a very aggressive alpha & very few people, let alone women, like that type of personality. I like nice guys, not doormats.

I see lots of posts from nice guys whose wives treat them like sh_t & frankly those wives are b_tches.

Maybe if the nice guys would "alpha up" a bit, the wives would be nicer but I doubt it. In most cases, the wives would just get b_tchier & that is NOT the desired result.

People need to be very careful when selecting a partner to marry. If the woman is entitled, spoiled, b_tchy no matter how hot she is, a nice guy should think very carefully before marrying her or he will wind up here posting about it.

Of course the above is not gender specific, but the post is talking about nice guys.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

I've run into "nice" guys who are really just too lazy and wimpy to think for themselves. They need a woman to do all the thinking for them. So they let her pick the restaurant, what they are going to do that weekend, etc.. The "anything you want" quickly turns into, "I have to make all the decisions,".


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

OK, I get it. But I still think there are a lot of nice guys who just aren't appreciated. Nice guys - not doormats, not whipped.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Emerald said:


> My exH is Super AlphaMan & I left him. However he was a very aggressive alpha & very few people, let alone women, like that type of personality. I like nice guys, not doormats.
> 
> I see lots of posts from nice guys whose wives treat them like sh_t & frankly those wives are b_tches.
> 
> ...


While there is certainly some of this, I think a lot is due to human nature. When nice guys constantly sacrifice so that their wife likes them, it becomes the norm. This is no different than anything else. 

To give an example, my wife and I commonly have a snack after the kids go to bed. It may be nothing more than some cheese and crackers, but just a little something to nibble on. One of my "nice guy" habits was to get her snack and put her stuff away when we were done. This was back when our sex life was having problems and I was trying to pick up slack to show how nice I was (though I did not realize conscuously at the time, I was also hoping she would see that and want to have sex because I was so nice). The problem was it became a habit, and she would be get mad if I did not do it. I remember her being upset one evening when she went to bed earlier than I did because I had not picked up her stuff. What started out as a nice gesture became the norm, and anything less was seen as poor behavior. 

Now, I don't think my wife is a b1tch, but I do think I was training her that she was above me. I fixed my behavior, and she now appreciates when I offer to do things (and offers to do things for me now as well). So while I think some women are naturally b1tches, I think that some men have trained their women to be that way.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree it is a disconnect involving what a "nice guy" is. Mavesh hits it on the head when she writes about the bad type of "nice guy". This is the guy that thinks that being nice enough will get them loved. That people will see these sacrifices and appreciate them. The problem is that it does not work over the long haul. When one person is always sacrificing, the other has a naturally tendancy to just accept that. That breeds disrespect and resentment.


For the record I see through my husband now. I see that yes all he wants is for me to love him. I think I've come a long way in convincing him that I WANT to meet his needs all he has to do is ask. 

Lately he's been doing just that....speaking up and asking for what he wants. Because I'm trying to 'train' him to do this more I jump when he asks. I'm not just giving lip service to the part where I want to change this dynamic in our marriage.

I've always loved and adored him but felt this disconnect because he wasn't happy. He wasn't happy because I wasn't showing him love in the way HE wanted it. Now that he's telling me what he wants (and I'm giving it to him) he's happier which in turn is making me happier. Win/win.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Enjoli...I'm interpreting what you're saying as "I want a Good Man".

Due to the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, the phrase Nice Guy has a specific meaning these days, and it refers to a man who is not a good man at all.

Of course, just having alpha traits doesn't make a man a good man, either.

A Good Man can be alpha, nice, and emotional all at the same time.


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## CrazyGuy (Dec 30, 2011)

You can be a nice guy without being a doormat. You can be a nice guy and still be protective. 

I was always a nice guy because that is the way I want to be treated, with respect. Does not matter if I know you or not, treat everybody the same. Nice guys can provide protection, piss one off and find out. I would have been happy to put my life on the line to save my wife or my sons. 

As a nice guy I do not care what other people think of me,I just care that I am doing what is right. I know what is important. Unfortunately for me though the only person I do care how she thinks of me does not think nice things. That is what messes up a nice guy. I only want one person to like me, type A's need a crowd and say look at me, like me, in my opinion.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

*props to machiavelli*



EnjoliWoman said:


> I read an awful lot of NMMNG comments and see a lot of nice guys who post and aren't appreciated. I 'get it' that sometimes a woman wants to be 'taken' sometimes or wants the man to be decisive or protective but I would give anything for a "nice guy".
> 
> I'm sure it's my history but being married for 13 years to a narcissistic, type A (type H, actually) Alpha male just completely turned me off to Alphas.
> 
> Am I the only woman who LIKES the idea of a nice guy? Someone considerate, helpful and thoughtful. Some other woman's trash is my treasure.


NAWALT


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I read an awful lot of NMMNG comments and see a lot of nice guys who post and aren't appreciated. I 'get it' that sometimes a woman wants to be 'taken' sometimes or wants the man to be decisive or protective but I would give anything for a "nice guy".
> 
> I'm sure it's my history but being married for 13 years to a narcissistic, type A (type H, actually) Alpha male just completely turned me off to Alphas.
> 
> Am I the only woman who LIKES the idea of a nice guy? Someone considerate, helpful and thoughtful. Some other woman's trash is my treasure.


I am married to the most thoughtful, nicest man I have ever met, but I dislike the kind of person that I call a "nice guy" - a euphemism for the passive aggressive type that tries to control their partner through displays of weakness or kindness. "Nice guys" are anything but nice! They're controlling and manipulative. 

In my mind, there's the "nice guy" and then there is a "good man." It's one of the topics I wrote about on my blog because the men who do this feel like they're left in the dust. The good men, on the other hand, are snatched up quickly and never have to wonder.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> I am married to the most thoughtful, nicest man I have ever met, but I dislike the kind of person that I call a "nice guy" - a euphemism for the passive aggressive type that tries to control their partner through displays of weakness or kindness. "Nice guys" are anything but nice! They're controlling and manipulative.
> 
> In my mind, there's the "nice guy" and then there is a "good man." It's one of the topics I wrote about on my blog because the men who do this feel like they're left in the dust. The good men, on the other hand, are snatched up quickly and never have to wonder.


:iagree: with everything said here 100%.

Both you an Mavash have the correct interpretation of " nice guy."

Absolute NO woman wants to be married to a man who carries the " nice guy " label.
Nice guy = passive aggressive.
A lot of women are confusing " nice guy " with "good man."
A good man is one who has the qualities YOU look for and admire in a man, and more.
A " nice guy" is basically a dangerous, covert liar. 

A nice guy is the equivalent of that girl in the office or group of friends who is always extremely obsequious and pleasant, but goes behind your back and sleeps with your man , or steal your promotion .
A " good man " does stuff to please you because he finds fulfillment and joy in pleasing you. A good man can respectfully disagree with your point of view , and work it out quite amicably.
A " nice guy" will pretend to go along with everything you say , while secretly resenting your dominance. He will smile and laugh with you,whilst secretly planning exactly how to get even with you.


In my opinion ( which may be flawed ), women who are dominant, tend to want " nice guys " because they think that they can be easily controlled. 
In other words , a " nice guy " offers to them " the path on least resistance" in a relationship.
With a " nice guy " they can do whatever they want and be only accountable to themselves.
But a relationship takes hard work and sacrifice. Any relationship where only one person is doing all the " heavy lifting " cannot work.

A " good man " will hold you accountable for your actions, support your goal and ambitions, give you the respect you deserve , while at the same time expressing his needs and desires.

So maybe you ladies at confusing " nice guy " with " good man."


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Tall Average Guy;1182624
Now said:


> I did this early on in my marriage. I used to do the laundry ,cook,clean, do everything that I thought would make her happy,but in a short space of time, we ended up at the marriage counsellor .( year #3 ) .
> I was trying to be something I was not.
> I was trying to be a " nice guy" instead of a " good husband."
> I wasn't holding her accountable for anything. I felt that the " path of least resistance " was the best path.
> I thought that was the way marriage was supposed to work.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Women and men, just think about what it is you really want from a partner, forget the stupid terminology.

Learn who *you *are as a person and then you will know what you want. Don't expect your partner to make you whole, be whole first.

Finally in mid life I know who* I *am, I know what* I* want. I have met him and I would walk over hot coals for *us*


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> A " nice guy" is basically a dangerous, covert liar.


Your whole post was spot on about the "nice guy". I highlighted this part because just last night I caught my nice guy husband lying to me AGAIN.

He's a sweet as he can be but he is in fact a liar. He lies because he feels it's safer than telling the truth. I'm upsetting his world because I'm onto him and I'm very observant. I'm catching these lies and calling him on them. I believe if I do this enough he will stop. At least that's what I'm going for.

He loves me and wants to make me happy. When I show him how much his lies hurt me that will have an effect as well. I don't normally show him my soft side but I do now. His lies make me cry if for no other reason than it hurts that he doesn't believe I can handle the truth. I deserve the truth and being lied to isn't fun even if the lies are immaterial and small.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> He loves me and wants to make me happy. When I show him how much his lies hurt me that will have an effect as well. I don't normally show him my soft side but I do now. *His lies make me cry if for no other reason than it hurts that he doesn't believe I can handle the truth.* I deserve the truth and being lied to isn't fun even if the lies are immaterial and small.


^^^^^^
Therin lies the answer to the problem, in my opinion.
Nice guys don't lie purposely to hurt their loved ones, but they lie in an effort to protect themselves and their loved ones.

So a " nice guy " has this surreal ,aura around him that makes him special in other people's eyes. This makes him feel good about himself. His entire self esteem is tied up in what people think of his " niceness " so he goes out of his way to please others. Whenever this aura is threatened he will lie to cover it up, because lying is his way of coping with his feelings.
Eg: If he feels upset at something terrible that somebody did to him, instead of addressing the problem he simply says" its ok," and smiles.
He is basically lying to himself, and that person.

If you like a particular flavour ice cream, he will also take that flavour in order to manipulate you into thinking that both of you have the exact, same taste in ice cream.

They don't really mean to hurt your feelings, but that is just their way of preventing conflict and handling it, IMO.
The problem with this is obvious.
Over a period of time , the relationship will be built on lies, and deep , seething resentment will build in the nice guy's mind. Eventually he starts acting passive aggressive and the partner is clueless...

I think I read somewhere that the root of the problem is somewhere in their upbringing. 
I am just talking from my observation here, so it may be inaccurate or your mileage may vary!

Just my 2 cents.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

CM you're absolutely right and the fact that I see all this makes it easier to handle. I know it's his upbringing, I know it's his way of avoiding conflict, I know he's coping with the feelings he'd rather hide. This isn't personal he's trying to protect himself from me. He fears if he tells me the truth I'll get mad. My job is to convince him with words and actions that I won't.

Actually what he's seeing now is lying upsets me more than the truth does. And yes I point this out to him. Avoiding me only makes this worse. Lying only escalates the conflict. That no longer will serve him because I won't let it.

It's a balancing act though. I was crying last night and he thought I was mad (I wasn't) so getting him to SEE me is a challenge. He thinks I'm his parents who were always mad at him and they never accepted him. I do I just have to get him to believe me.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I had a good dose of nice guy going on, still do I suppose. Thing is, I AM genuinely nice. I don't expect people to read my mind... but as I get to know someone in a relationship there are always what I presumed were unspoken expectations. With my ex W, in the beginning all my needs were being met by her, and I went about my niceguy routine making sure to meet her needs too... then as time went on if there was a need she stopped doing, or if I had new needs, THAT is when they started going unfulfilled and I would begin feeling resentment. Sometimes I could be honest enough to express my needs, except many times she refused to do anything about it, I tried to hold her accountable but was met with resistance, and so I suppose I would deal with the situation with a combination of manipulation and patience - I would always try to outlast it. Maybe some would call the sh!t testing, and I just didn't know HOW to hold her responsible, I mean she is a grown adult she should be able to take care of her responsibilities. And I suspect that to deal with the guilt of her unfulfilled duties to me and our relationship she just refused me trying to fulfill her needs too, which is why she just kept putting more and more distance between herself and our home and our marriage. I guess we were doomed to fail, because she lost interest in meeting my needs and in return I gave up the expectation of her to do so (so I didn't meet with my resentment full on), there really is no way to make someone do something they don't want to.


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Nice guys finish last.

If you always want to win. To be incontrol of the relationship. Sure, then go out with a nice guy.

Yes, I'd like my husband to be a nice guy about half the time. heck, even a quarter of the time. But, i do NOT want to wear the pants in the family.

Realize this though. In marriage, it works better if there is a stronger person.

You can see the problems occur when two "leaders" are married to each other. Both never wanting to back down. Both needing to be in control. 

But there are also problems in a marriage when you have two "followers". Two Givers. It's in their nature to be a giver. They want to give & not to "Take". Eventually one, has to start to be a "taker". It goes against their nature to "take" instead of nurture their mate. So.... resentment & unfulfillment can definetly start in those relationships too.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Your whole post was spot on about the "nice guy". I highlighted this part because just last night I caught my nice guy husband lying to me AGAIN.
> 
> He's a sweet as he can be but he is in fact a liar. He lies because he feels it's safer than telling the truth. I'm upsetting his world because I'm onto him and I'm very observant. I'm catching these lies and calling him on them. I believe if I do this enough he will stop. At least that's what I'm going for.
> 
> He loves me and wants to make me happy. When I show him how much his lies hurt me that will have an effect as well. I don't normally show him my soft side but I do now. His lies make me cry if for no other reason than it hurts that he doesn't believe I can handle the truth. I deserve the truth and being lied to isn't fun even if the lies are immaterial and small.


When my ex did this and I started "fining" him $20 each time, it ended this problem quickly.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> When my ex did this and I started "fining" him $20 each time, it ended this problem quickly.


My goodness!
Not to hijack the thread, but a female friend of mine told me that one time she found out that her husband had hired a high end escort for sex.
After confronting him, he confessed. 
In revenge she decided that every time he wanted sex, he would have to pay her the same amount of money he paid the escort and also use a condom.

They are now divorced, but she got her revenge!


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> CM you're absolutely right and the fact that I see all this makes it easier to handle. I know it's his upbringing, I know it's his way of avoiding conflict, I know he's coping with the feelings he'd rather hide. This isn't personal he's trying to protect himself from me. He fears if he tells me the truth I'll get mad. My job is to convince him with words and actions that I won't.
> 
> Actually what he's seeing now is lying upsets me more than the truth does. And yes I point this out to him. Avoiding me only makes this worse. Lying only escalates the conflict. That no longer will serve him because I won't let it.
> 
> It's a balancing act though. I was crying last night and he thought I was mad (I wasn't) so getting him to SEE me is a challenge. He thinks I'm his parents who were always mad at him and they never accepted him. I do I just have to get him to believe me.


I think you are handling it well enough
I hope it works out , and your marriage gets stronger.
But let him know that what he is doing is unacceptable, and that there is a better way to handle conflict.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

One woman's nice guy is another woman's..........

well, in my case, fiancé.

When I read the grovelling e-mails he wrote to his EA both before and after he started dating me, I cringe. And of course, as I have mentioned here in several places, I am annoyed by the difference in treatment that he gave her and me while he was multidating us ie, his ability to payr her taxi fare while not even waiting with me for the bus that I was paying for ...... not to mention that he was open to telling her about our sex life....... 

If he had been a more macho alpha guy with her, would she be eating out of HIS hand? I don't know.

But an interesting thing to contemplate. She did go on to date another guy the same age (40 yo, 11 yo than she) for more than two years (as per his and her FB wall). As per his photos, he doesn't look any more attractive and his profession would not necessarily make him any richer than my fiance. 

One thing that I did find interesting was that after about 18 months of dating, he announced on FB that he finally completed his divorce. It's not clear from her responses on that thread whether she knew of his marital status or not.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I think you are handling it well enough
> I hope it works out , and your marriage gets stronger.
> But let him know that what he is doing is unacceptable, and that there is a better way to handle conflict.


What's crazy is there is no conflict. It's all in his head. I swear he makes this stuff up based on who I USED to be. I haven't been that person in a long time but he's still responding to me as if I am.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> My goodness!
> Not to hijack the thread, but a female friend of mine told me that one time she found out that her husband had hired a high end escort for sex.
> After confronting him, he confessed.
> In revenge she decided that every time he wanted sex, he would have to pay her the same amount of money he paid the escort and also use a condom.
> ...


Wow! 

In our case, his "little lies" were a frequent source of arguments. I was able to call him out on one clearly and that's when I told him, "You have a right to lie about all this silly stuff, but I have a right not to accept it. So from now on, I'm charging you $20 for the privilege and if you don't pay it, I'll charge something on the credit card for myself." He lied twice more, had to pay, and never did it again. The two times he did lie, there wasn't an argument. I saw it as a gain to myself and had less reason to get mad.


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