# Is infidelity about excitement and experiencing something new or something else?



## Mark P (Apr 4, 2014)

Is infidelity about excitement and experiencing something new 

OR ... something else?

What's the real cause of infidelity and how to prevent it?

What do you think?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

What is excitement, what causes excitement? Get a hundred people to define it and what causes it for them and you get different responses.

Why they do it? Because they can.

What it's about..a myriad of reasons, each specific to the individual, but the foundation it's laid on is always dishonesty.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Attention and compliments. Ego feeding.


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## musk-rat (Mar 10, 2015)

For my wife it was the constant attention and that he noticed every little detail about her every single day. She was also trying to make herself happy and it did not work very long.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

insecurity
low self esteem
selfeshness
lack of compassion and empathy 

Oh and lets not forget

Stupidity

55


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## BrutalHonesty (Apr 5, 2015)

For men? Increase in reproductive potential. Spreading the seed due to the low cost involved in investing on the male part in the biological past. 


For women? Combination of her genes with a variety of men in order to insure genetic success while she enjoys the protection and resources of the cuckholded husband.

Sorry about the dry National Geographic like answer, but i'm sure other people will have long winded speeches about it and i believe we are much more biologically driven than what most people like to admit.


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

My WH told me that he did it because he wanted to see what it felt like and he felt as if I was not available. I didn't go anywhere, I was at home with our kids. This is a guy that does not talk to me even if I beg him to. The stupid thing that happens after the affair is that betrayed spouse feels lacking somehow that it's their fault that their spouse decides to betray his vows.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

BrutalHonesty said:


> For men? Increase in reproductive potential. Spreading the seed due to the low cost involved in investing on the male part in the biological past.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree with this answer but also I believe it's the culture we live in today it seems as if it's being more and more acceptable. Plus the lack of boundaries that people have


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

It's about fantasy, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. In my case I have realized I shut my WW out from my feelings, add in a host of other stresses, and she believed our marriage was over. I, in fact, was contemplating divorce, but never told her. As a result, when we did talk after d-day I could somewhat see how she was feeling. Our marriage was bad and I own my part of that. Our communication was terrible and the other stresses didn't help any. She then made a decision that had catastrophic consequences. It was her decision solely to cheat, and a terrible decision, one that definitely didn't help the marriage. 

My WW wasn't looking for an affair but our marriage was worse then I thought, then the affair destroyed the rest. It wasn't about something new or excitement, it was fantasy, it was escaping reality. As her OM kept complimenting her and going to lunch and sharing personal information it began. Then it turned physical and after six months the fantasy became a relationship with the struggles of a marriage. This is when reality slapped her in the face. It was self destruction to herself, our marriage, and finally me. This is why infidelity is so destructive and devastating. 

Infidelity can be prevented to a degree, use communication effectively along with boundaries and you have a chance. Shut your spouse out and cut down communication and you'll either be single or here trying to see if they're cheating. It's about being vulnerable to your spouse and them to you, to truly communicate and have no secrets of your emotions. You lay your heart on the table fully exposed for your spouse to hurt you or love you. For me I'm trying to do that now, and it's very difficult, but it's building trust with me in that she isn't causing pain but showing love and care. Nothing with infidelity is easy, I had problems before the affair with vulnerability, so this all new to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

My H told me she made him feel like somebody. Everything was all about him. He got an adrenalin rush from sneaking around, It was exciting, made him feel young & alive. Now I can't help but wonder. What could be so good that it would make you throw away the one person that's Loved & stood by you your whole life & how do you ever compete with something like that..


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> Sorry about the dry National Geographic like answer, but i'm sure other people will have long winded speeches about it and i believe we are much more biologically driven than what most people like to admit.


We're far more sophisticated than our biological drives. I think around 70% of people stay faithful through out their lives.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Devastated an lost said:


> My H told me she made him feel like somebody. Everything was all about him. He got an adrenalin rush from sneaking around, It was exciting, made him feel young & alive. Now I can't help but wonder. What could be so good that it would make you throw away the one person that's Loved & stood by you your whole life & how do you ever compete with something like that..



Those feelings are only temporary, and it is something he could of had with you if he was not emotionally walled off to you. He placed you in the wife role, someone who would not want some excitement, have fun with, explore new things together, ways of bringing back the romance. He did not see you as a lover, someone who can bring out some passion.

Think of Tiger Woods, he treated his wife like a mother figure,he saw her more as a mommy type, and he seeked elsewhere for that excitement, while treating his wife with propriety, the image of a respectable image of what a wife should be.

You were not neglectful, and that is why he is scared to lose you. Ever heard of the Madonna/***** complex?

He did not see you as someone he can have fun with, and that is his own mental block. Those couples that can have fun together, are the ones that usually feel younger, have that romantic, magical feelings of I cannot be without this person.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I've always felt is was about "getting even". If you won't give me what I need, I'll get it from someone else...The heck with you. 

I don't see the "control" side of an affair, although for some I'm sure than it's there, it's just I don't understand it. I've always thought is was about filling you needs when your spouse would do it. 

As for excitment, I don't see that part of it either. I'd just be worried that I'd get caught and that would take away any excitement value it would have. I've just seen too many guys get caught for it to have any excitement value.


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## STONORIVER (Apr 5, 2015)

From my personal experience - I cheated at the very end. My relationship with my husband had become purely roommates. Sex about 4 times in the year prior and I'm HD! 
So when someone 10 years younger than me and good looking threw me a few compliments and some flirting, I was good to go. Sounds bad, I don't believe in infidelity and had never done it before (I'm 48), but that's the reality. I did NOT enjoy the sneaking around one bit. 
It was purely selfish on my part. I was looking for escape from living with someone who suffers from anxiety/depression and refuses to even try to get help for it. I was looking for fun dates again, make out sessions, attention, and yes, good sex. Which I found. It boosts your ego temporarily - made me feel sexy and vibrant again, not a frumpy middle-aged woman. But its also full of emptiness - there's no love - which is really what I think I was looking for/wanted from my husband. 
I'm separated now, my husband has never been told I did this (i don't see the need to hurt him) and the OM? I'm still casually dating him (meaning I see him once every 2-3 weeks). But its not going anywhere and I'll soon have to end it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

It can be. But it can be a result of previous traumas (there's evidence that some victims of child sexual abuse can become unfaithful in later life) or of poor decisions based on alcoholic intake or drug use.

Revenge can play a role.

Little Prince or Princess Syndrome, too.


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## Mark P (Apr 4, 2014)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Those feelings are only temporary, and it is something he could of had with you if he was not emotionally walled off to you. He placed you in the wife role, someone who would not want some excitement, have fun with, explore new things together, ways of bringing back the romance. He did not see you as a lover, someone who can bring out some passion.
> 
> Think of Tiger Woods, he treated his wife like a mother figure,he saw her more as a mommy type, and he seeked elsewhere for that excitement, while treating his wife with propriety, the image of a respectable image of what a wife should be.
> 
> ...


I think you tackled something very important. Fun. I opened this thread because I'm just reading a book of a french researcher of human desire Mrs. Esther Perel. She says that while most of us want to feel safe and close to the person we love, we also seek excitement and fun. We want novelty. Well, closeness and novelty kind of contradict each other, right?

Here's what Mrs.Perel says to how to avoid the trap of becoming bored in your own relationship (or your spouse becomes bored of you, whichever you feel is worse).

1) Take time just for yourself. Time alone. Time for your friends. Separate time.
2) Pick something that you like doing and you're passionate about and pursue that. This makes you confident and confidence is (as research shows) sexy almost universally across the globe, across all races. 
3) Surprise. Surprise your spouse every now and then. 

Does this make any sense to you?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I've always thought it was about self esteem, with a bit of selfishness thrown in.

The thing is, and this will be contentious, is that self esteem issues are not always your own fault. Your partner has a LOT to do with this (trust me, I've been on that side before). This does not justify cheating, but until you're in a situation like that, it's difficult to understand. 

For the poster a few replies above this, she justified it. It actually makes sense. Was it a smart decision? No. Was it a selfish one? Yes. Did it make her feel better? Yes, and that's what's dangerous. Living a life in which you don't feel valued for whatever reason can make it undeniably easy to justify doing something like this.

On the flip side of this, my ex wife had her affair(s) both out of self esteem issues (there before I came along) AND selfishness. Obviously I'm biased, but I do know that I did nothing but make her feel good about herself, day in and day out. I was a model husband, though, in retrospect, not the model husband she wanted me to be. But, when all is said and done, that's up to her to communicate to me, which she didn't.

Several years removed from this experience, I now have a greater understanding of why she took the route she took. It still does not "okay" it in my eyes, and I still don't feel I could have done anything different, or better, to prevent it. But all the same.

But every affair has one thing in common, and that's how the betrayer feels about themselves. Whether it's related to their spouse or not doesn't matter. You could have the most wonderful, loving and supportive spouse on the planet, but if you don't feel good about yourself, then it's easy to seek out, or fall prey to, others who may be able to make you feel good, even if for a short time. This is how my first marriage ended. What I had to offer my ex wife didn't satiate her need for acceptance, feeling good about herself, ego, etc. I doubt any one person can offer her that, truly.

Others, like the poster above, can cast blame on their spouse for how they feel about themselves, and they end up taking the same route.

The difference between the two people is that one (my ex wife) will probably NEVER feel everything she needs from one person. She just needs to learn how to reign in the urge to seek it elsewhere. And the other CAN get everything they need from one person, they just have to find that person first.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

The exact reason may vary from cheater to cheater....but ALL of them are a manifestation of something broken and screwed up in the cheater themselves.

Whatever it is that drives them, it takes some special type of 'f*cked up' to become a traitor.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Every cheater has different reasons that much I agree. I can tell you my ex's motivations:

1) OM gave her compliments and attention which fed her ego.

2) It was new and different so that made it hot and heavy.

3) She got off on the excitement of sneaking around.

They acted like they were a new boyfriend/girlfriend couple. Trapped in miserable relationships that were ending soon. That was the FANTASY they justified their actions with. They didn't care about ripping their families apart, hurting their spouses or kids. All they cared about was their self gratification and the escape. 

Infidelity is selfishness in it's purest form. That's what its about. They do it because they want to and because the opportunity presented itself.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I'm sure it varies a lot. I haven't cheated, but I have been very tempted. My reason is simple: I want to be desired and respected, and I do not get that from my wife. 

I get clear signals of this from other women, and it is a strong temptation.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

dtc37 said:


> I agree with this answer but also I believe it's the culture we live in today it seems as if it's being more and more acceptable. Plus the lack of boundaries that people have


The '70s were far worse. Those were the days of swinging, open wife-swapping parties, "free" love, you name it. And oh yes, porno flics were playing in regular movie theaters.


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## BrutalHonesty (Apr 5, 2015)

azteca1986 said:


> We're far more sophisticated than our biological drives. I think around 70% of people stay faithful through out their lives.


Faithfulness also have it's own biological advantages. Selection happens at the level of the individual inserted into a populational dynamic. If everyone cheats there is zero advantage for the cheaters and thus the advantage it confers is nullified. The ideal scenario for the cheater is to be the only cheater, but then the cheaters will increase in number.

The equilibrium situation in primates seems to be 1/3 cheaters for 2/3 faithful. What about humans? See the number you have there? That's right. We are typical of serial monogamic primates. Most don't cheat but some do, because it brings success while in a population with mostly faithful people. 

It is quite tempting to believe we are more complex than that. However math seems to prove us wrong. Our sex/mating drive is just like any other animal of our type. 

And this is the game, find a partner that plays by your rules. But keep in mind that he/she is just another falible being seeking to propagate his/her genes the best way possible.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Brutal Honesty is right. It's all biological. Moreover, the differences between male and female infidelity also make sense in evolutionary terms. Marriage as a legal status was created to boost monogamy. A woman taking a man's surname, what is that but a conceptual reinforcement of her commitment only to bear his children.

Although men are always looking at women, checking out their faces and proportions, I can't believe women aren't looking, too. Maybe not as restlessly and incessantly as men, but still they are sexually attracted to OM in spite of committed relationships. Or dislike 'of cheating is not morality from some abstract philosophical doctrine. People don't want to invest their resources in a mating strategy with poor odds.

Throughout evolutionary history, smart people have passed their genes on. Honesty is good but stupid honesty in may not pay off if it leaves you a dead end.

BFF, whose story is a TAM classic, was with a woman who cheated on him for years with his buddy. The three of them were into car racing. OM was a builder. BBF had a much better job and was economically dependent on him. He was a good business reference. 

BFF's wife could not conceive and they were contemplating adoption or surrogacy, I forget which, when he discovered the cheating. Well, he ditched her cheating azz and ended contact with the back stabbing friend. Economically it sucked for him, paying alimony, but biologically BFF found a new women and had a child. Suddenly we see who the winner was.

When dogs take dump, they look guilty, miserable and worried. Why? It's moment of vulnerability. Competitors and predators instinctually know that an animal in the midst of defecating, eating, sleeping, mating, labor is less able to defend itself. So we naturally feel uneasy. When cheaters are caught in the sex act they, regardless of how strong they are or how in love they are, look weak and frightened. Even a beta male can be dangerous to an alpha who is naked in car or strange bedroom.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Cheaters cheat. It's in their nature. You have to ask the cheater what their nature is to discover that. I suspect the variables are as differentiated as those which induce people to pair up otherwise.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> For women? Combination of her genes with a variety of men in order to insure genetic success while she enjoys the protection and resources of the cuckholded husband.


A good out for the betrayed/cuckholded husband to be able to blame "science" rather than take any responsibility for lowering his wife's romantic interest.  Stonoriver's, "I was looking for escape from living with someone who suffers from anxiety/depression and refuses to even try to get help for it" is classic and has little to do with her seeking genetic success. 
But if it give guys warm and fuzzy feelings to think science made her cheat, proving there's nothing wrong with you or the way you treated her, go for it.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

Not sure. My ex said he cheated because being with me was like waking up and having the same breakfast everyday the B******.

So i always thought it was because a cheater wanted a taste of something else, bored with the same person and wants variety, I just think a cheater is a selfish F*****.

As you can tell i am very bitter about what my ex did... Well i was, ancient history now.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> And this is the game, find a partner that plays by your rules. But keep in mind that he/she is just another falible being seeking to propagate his/her genes the best way possible.


If propagating my genes were the key driver of my behaviour I'd be killing my business partners and feeding them to my offspring.

What stops me?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

There's probably more reasons to have an affair then there are actually affairs.

In my mind, there's two buckets of reasons:
Bucket 1 - the actual causes for an affair. This can range from "that person is hot" to "I want to feel hot" to "I'm bored" to "I didn't think my spouse would find out" and a million more.

Just don't confuse these with bucket 2 which is all of the justifications someone comes up with AFTER they've had the affair.

This is all just noise.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> If propagating my genes were the key driver of my behaviour I'd be killing my business partners and feeding them to my offspring.
> 
> 
> 
> What stops me?



Evolution favors variation. Our behavior varies, too. We are adaptable. Getting along with other people pays off. We don't routinely get into arguments and fight. Injury and death prevent our genes from going on. 

We are still evolving. If the genes for one-itus were paying off, the level of cheating would decline.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Evolution favors variation. Our behavior varies, too. We are adaptable. Getting along with other people pays off. We don't routinely get into arguments and fight. Injury and death prevent our genes from going on.
> 
> We are still evolving. If the genes for one-itus were paying off, the level of cheating would decline.


With respect, none of which answers my question. True we're descended from social primates but live in far larger groups than our hunter-gatherer near ancestors.

The societies we live in are man-made structures which come with their own set of rules, morality, ethics, altruism, etc which make living together feasible.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> If propagating my genes were the key driver of my behaviour I'd be killing my business partners and feeding them to my offspring.
> 
> What stops me?


Forgot the A-1?  You can substitute some Italian dressing for salads and then roast it on the grill. A nice lager would go well, but I hear Chianti and fava beans go well together, too. LOL


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## BrutalHonesty (Apr 5, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> A good out for the betrayed/cuckholded husband to be able to blame "science" rather than take any responsibility for lowering his wife's romantic interest.  Stonoriver's, "I was looking for escape from living with someone who suffers from anxiety/depression and refuses to even try to get help for it" is classic and has little to do with her seeking genetic success.
> But if it give guys warm and fuzzy feelings to think science made her cheat, proving there's nothing wrong with you or the way you treated her, go for it.


So, what you are saying is that a woman cheats because her husband is to blame? He didn't do something for her and she screws another guy? Is that it? 

Let me just ask you one question then... If the husband isn't fulfilling the needs and she has better alternatives why doesn't she just leave? why doesn't she just go and enjoy life with that other guy? Why cheat?

Your idea that cheating is the response to some problem induced by the betrayed is actually quite naive. Îf you think you can keep a woman/man from cheating just by treating her/him just right you are deluded. 

That blaming of the betrayed is just cheater talk to justify their actions. There is ZERO need to cheat. All you have to do is leave and be off with the other person. Cheating happens because people want to bake the cake and eat it too. In fact, cheating is only "fun" while it is hidden and forbidden. The magic ends when it comes out in the open.

This is why people in boards dealing with infidelity always suggest exposure to end the affair. 



> If propagating my genes were the key driver of my behaviour I'd be killing my business partners and feeding them to my offspring.
> 
> What stops me?


In your environment you wouldn't be able to pull it off. The trade off between danger and profit in the way of resources is not in favour of murdering people. 

However, if your kids were really in need, let's say... starving i guarantee that if your business partners were in the way of a meal you would seriously consider murdering them. And so would anyone who loves their children. 

Do not mistake the changes on the equation by the protection our society offers our children with limit situations. The reason why murder is relatively rare in our western societies is because there is no real need to do it. Nobody is starving, nobody will die if you come home with a little less. 

But when things go wrong for humans, then, yes, we have it in us to kill another human for the smallest of vital rewards. 

It has happened and is happening and will always happen. Our thing layer of social varnish saves us all from that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Here it is. You've all been waiting for it. The answer to why s/he cheated. 

Because s/he wanted to cheat. 

Too simple? Okay.

Society thinks we are still supposed to take care of our wives. Laws favor this concept. Women want to be equal. So, they end up with more freedom and choices. They end up with more money and choices. They end up with responsibilities and don't like them. 

Sounds like all of us as we grew older?

So, they educate themselves and talk to each other. They find out they don't have it, apparently, as good as some other woman who is likely stretching the truth. Hormones come into it somewhere and when you combine that with not getting what they want or what someone else tells them is good for them, they start to think. They feel neglected and unprotected, two of the top concerns. Finally, after some time and thinking, and I almost forgot, some ****-testing to figure out if you measure up to this new idea of what a man should be to meet her needs, she realises you are not suited to her any more.

Then, she figures out whether or not you can change to meet her new needs. She half-heartedly tries while you are thinking she nuts and giving it all you've got. It isn't enough because you don't know what is in her head and you have forgotten or never learned how to communicate with her. 

You are in trouble now. She decides she can't fix you and you won't do the work to be who she needs. How can she ever trust or love a man who does not understand her? Well, she can't, but that's not really you. It's who she perceives you to be. 

Next, she decides to look and talk to other men while in the company of a friend or three. When she's comfortable enough, and after a few men have made advances, embarrassing her and making her feel wanted again, she starts to think hard. Her friends have told these guys she's looking, but she doesn't know that. Now, they move in for the kill and she's open to it because she's asked you why you don't care about her, love her, take her out, show her affection, do more around the house, do more with the children, do more to understand her. 

Okay, she's angry now and doesn't want sex much with her absentee husband who doesn't care if she dies or lives. She cries herself to sleep at night. You have no frickin' idea what is going on. You are desperately trying to figure it all out and keep your marriage together. She really doesn't want to do that because she has to think and make a decision about who might be able to make her happy again, love her the way she wants, cherish her for all eternity. 

She isn't having much sex with you. She goes out more. Talks more to men. Talks to women who know how to pick up a good man that's going to make her feel the way she needs to feel. Then, one day she is so angry and so tired of doing all the work in the marriage, she gives in and lets a man touch her, hear her deepest desires, thoughts and dreams that you've never provided. You are such a bastard. You are no good, abusive and never loved her after the children were born. You made her feel ugly because her body changed and you didn't shower her with loving words and make her feel sexy. How dare you.

So, she meets this guy and goes to his place, or a hotel after a few drinks. It's taken time for him to work on her feelings and get just the right combination of angry/horny to go along. She loves it. She loves him. He's done so much for her. He listened when you didn't. Of course, she didn't know how to talk to you, just tell you what she was feeling, which you didn't understand. You lost sleep trying to figure it out, but not look like an idiot asking her what the hell she was meaning and driving her further away. 

So, now it's done. She is in lerv and he is her savior. All hail the AP. She hangs on his every word. Waits for his call or text. She gets excited like she used to when you two were dating, but she's forgotten that long ago. He is her world. You are lower than whale dung, and that's at the bottom of the ocean. 

Pretty much all made up, that could sum up some women. There are plenty of stories and reasons, plenty of blame to go around, plenty of pain and suffering. Sucks.

I like the first reason. It's easy and truthful. Then, you can work on yourself cause no one else can and you can't change anyone, even if you wanted to try. 

Again, it sucks badly. I'm sorry you are in pain and I hope you can come back and see the humor in this sometime.

Edit: I forgot to add, you come here and the men tell you to divorce cause they've been through the hell and know it's almost impossible to get her to see you as a mate again and she will never love you the way you'd like. So, you have to change who you are to be a new man for her, a new woman. Cause,she is not the same woman you married anymore. 

If you reconcile, you will never feel that old feeling again. Close, but no cigar. You will always have mind movies no matter what. You will with another woman, too. So you are changed too. Yippee. 

So, do you go back and do the hard work to change into that man she wanted before the affair which you caused or do you say the hell with it and start over? It depends on where you are at in life and who you are. It's tougher for some to accept than others. No one can truly answer you. It's up to you and her. 

By the way, I don't wish this on anyone, except the AP some day when he or she is deeply in love with their spouse and feeling secure. My apologies to the AP's posting here or looking on. Screw you.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> Faithfulness also have it's own biological advantages. Selection happens at the level of the individual inserted into a populational dynamic. If everyone cheats there is zero advantage for the cheaters and thus the advantage it confers is nullified. The ideal scenario for the cheater is to be the only cheater, but then the cheaters will increase in number.
> 
> The equilibrium situation in primates seems to be 1/3 cheaters for 2/3 faithful. What about humans? See the number you have there? That's right. We are typical of serial monogamic primates. Most don't cheat but some do, because it brings success while in a population with mostly faithful people.
> 
> ...



Okay tell the truth 

Is this Mach 

J/K

55


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## BrutalHonesty (Apr 5, 2015)

just got it 55 said:


> Okay tell the truth
> 
> Is this Mach
> 
> ...


Say what?


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

If you were to ask my ex-wife why she cheated and IF she would actually answer, she would tell you she wanted to do it because the guy kept asking her.

She will never really be straight and say because she wanted to do it.

There will always be some way to make it someone else's decision.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> The exact reason may vary from cheater to cheater....but ALL of them are a manifestation of something broken and screwed up in the cheater themselves.
> 
> Whatever it is that drives them, it takes some special type of 'f*cked up' to become a traitor.


But broken doesn't mean bad. Just broken.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Here it is. You've all been waiting for it. The answer to why s/he cheated.
> 
> Because s/he wanted to cheat.
> 
> ...


In the case of my wife that was it. She wanted to cheat, so she did.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Please Lord may I never ever ever meet another "broken" person.. Doubt that will actually come true though.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> In the case of my wife that was it. She wanted to cheat, so she did.


And I didn't like that for her cheating. Just for support/solidarity.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> And I didn't like that for her cheating. Just for support/solidarity.


No worries! I understood that! :smthumbup:


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"But broken doesn't mean bad. Just broken."

I understand the point you are making Matt, but I can't agree.

'Broken' means that there is something inside them that drives their sh*tty choices.

But they still know right from wrong....they still choose to behave in a disgusting and hurtful manner towards people they supposedly love and made vows to...they still risk destroying the family of their own children.

In my book, that makes them bad people.

And the proof is in the fact that not every 'broken' person engages in behaviors that wreck those closest to them.

Many people bravely struggle with their personal demons on a daily basis, but still manage to live decent lives doing the best by their partners and children as they can.

'Brokenness' does not cancel free will.....it does not excuse crappy choices.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "But broken doesn't mean bad. Just broken."
> 
> I understand the point you are making Matt, but I can't agree.
> 
> ...


Preach brother!


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> "But broken doesn't mean bad. Just broken."
> 
> I understand the point you are making Matt, but I can't agree.
> 
> ...


I totally agree and this describes my SIL. She knows what she's doing is wrong but just can't stop doing it. The things she says to my BIL are mind boggling. Most recent:

Last week she moved out of the marital home for the 2nd time so she can do whatever she wants with whomever, (who knows). 

On Saturday she asks my BIL, "Are you sure you can't get Sunday off so you can drive up with us to my parent's for Easter?" Like she just didn't blow up her family for the 2nd time AND my BIL is really going to want to spend 2-3 days with her side of the family.

He said he just looked at her and said, "Something is seriously wrong with you and you need therapy." She said, "I know."


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Dyokemm said:


> But they still know right from wrong....they still choose to behave in a disgusting and hurtful manner towards people they supposedly love and made vows to...they still risk destroying the family of their own children.


My FWW admitted one night a few months after DD, She knew what she was doing was just plain wrong. Every time she returned home after meeting some OM for Sex at a hotel or his apartment... she would tell herself this is the last time. She always went back. She said the excitement and thrill was addictive and that she was weak. It was her little secret and no one would ever get hurt.

Hurt... Such a small little word to impact so many lives.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> I totally agree and this describes my SIL. She knows what she's doing is wrong but just can't stop doing it. The things she says to my BIL are mind boggling. Most recent:
> 
> Last week she moved out of the marital home for the 2nd time so she can do whatever she wants with whomever, (who knows).
> 
> ...


Does your BIL find you to be a wise source of advice?

How old are they? Early 40s?


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## Misfits (Mar 25, 2015)

My wife wasn't getting needs met. Another guy hit on her and eventually filled that emotional void then the physical. I don't think it's really all that abnormal. I think it's human nature. So she cheated. The thing that was the most annoying was she did oral. Why do women always do fun and kinky things with secret lovers? I've had oral maybe 3 times in 10 years. Tried doing it myself once but I just flipped off the couch and hurt my back - lesson learned. (That was a joke by the way). Anyway I don't fault her. Sadly we are right back to the same dynamic that resulted in her cheating. I'm emotionless so whatever. If she does it again then oh well. I had a chance to cheat once. Decided that the work to maintain a lover wasn't worth it. I'm lazy so porn is enough for me.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> *Society thinks we are still supposed to take care of our wives. Laws favor this concept. Women want to be equal. So, they end up with more freedom and choices. They end up with more money and choices. They end up with responsibilities and don't like them.
> 
> Sounds like all of us as we grew older?
> 
> ...


NAILED it.... and *bolded* for emphasis. 

Cheater's script 101. It's so predictable it's pathetic.

Selfish people who think YOU are responsible for their happiness.

They cheat on you because you didn't make the honeymoon last forever.

So they decide to get it from somewhere else. They cheat because they want to.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What's funny is most cheaters in my experience seem to think it's a totally unique, special situation...

When it seems to follow the same, tired script.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Does your BIL find you to be a wise source of advice?
> 
> 
> 
> How old are they? Early 40s?



He does now. When this all started he would only listened to his therapist who gave him the worst advice but she has finally come around too. 

My BIL is 45 and my SIL is 38. They've been married for almost 12 years. She's been married before, he has not. She did the same thing in her first marriage.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Two kinds of cheaters.
1. Serial. Those who just do because they can. They have something missing called empathy, genuine care, genuine love, seeing the bigger picture, knowing who they are and why they do things or what they are really after/need the list goes on....
2. Those who are seriously neglected over time and whose needs are not met no matter how much they plead for things or warn their partner how miserable they are due to the lack of "..." - insert a list of many things to fill the blank. And instead of leaving to pursue a better life free from the misery of a crap partner, they instead cheat.

Both scenarios are poor choices. One just a little or a lot more fvcked up than the other.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Remains said:


> 1. Serial. Those who just do because they can. They have something missing called empathy, genuine care, genuine love, seeing the bigger picture, knowing who they are and why they do things or what they are really after/need the list goes on....
> 2. Those who are seriously neglected over time and whose needs are not met no matter how much they plead for things or warn their partner how miserable they are due to the lack of "..." - insert a list of many things to fill the blank. And instead of leaving to pursue a better life free from the misery of a crap partner, they instead cheat.


There's only one kind of cheat. The selfish kind. #2 is just #1 making unjustifiable excuses. Please read the bolded narrative above. They ALL do it because they can and they ALL have a tale of woe. It's the same pathetic sob story over and over again. Unless they are a straight up sociopath. We've seen those here too.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Two kinds of cheaters.
> 1. Serial. Those who just do because they can. They have something missing called empathy, genuine care, genuine love, seeing the bigger picture, knowing who they are and why they do things or what they are really after/need the list goes on....
> 2. Those who are seriously neglected over time and whose needs are not met no matter how much they plead for things or warn their partner how miserable they are due to the lack of "..." - insert a list of many things to fill the blank. And instead of leaving to pursue a better life free from the misery of a crap partner, they instead cheat.
> 
> Both scenarios are poor choices. One just a little or a lot more fvcked up than the other.


There's also those who are mentally ill or who think differently.

And there's another possibility, too. Moritori and I were talking about cheating wives and we noticed that a significant number were subject to sexual abuse as children.

His ex was, my wife was and someone on TAM who said that she had not been sexually abused as a child realised that, yes, they had actually been sexually abused. 

Though of course, not all who were sexually abused go on to cheat, not all those who cheat were sexually abused, but a significant number were.

TAM CWI might be skewed as it is, arguably, a self-selecting group.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

soccermom2three said:


> He does now. When this all started he would only listened to his therapist who gave him the worst advice but she has finally come around too.
> 
> My BIL is 45 and my SIL is 38. They've been married for almost 12 years. She's been married before, he has not. She did the same thing in her first marriage.


Did you tell him you have a PhD from U of TAM?

On the site Surviving Infidelity they have a sub forum for wayward spouses. There you can read inner thoughts that don't much appear on TAM. One WW loved her husband in every way except sexually. Husband was better than OM in every way. She wanted to feel desire for her betrayed husband but didn't. So the end of the affair and successful reconciliation are two different things.

Also, there was a lot of discussion about shame. The WW felt dirty and immoral. They themselves used the words wh*rish and sl*tish. It was very uncomfortable to deal with this psychological state. Presumably there are cheaters who embrace cheating but excepting sociopaths, they must justify their immorality.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> There's only one kind of cheat. The selfish kind. #2 is just #1 making unjustifiable excuses. Please read the bolded narrative above. They ALL do it because they can and they ALL have a tale of woe. It's the same pathetic sob story over and over again. Unless they are a straight up sociopath. We've seen those here too.


I think #1 is the sociopath. Hence the lack of empathy etc.

#2 is just the fvcked up person. Yes, they should leave the partner, but instead choose to cheat. Plenty of people have had weak boundaries in their past, some present, some take longer to learn than others. Some never learn...In which case I refer you back to #1.

No matter how morally upheld you believe yourself to be, everyone under the correct set of sh1tty circumstances has the propensity to betray someone they shouldn't do to one degree or another. Offer me one person who has never betrayed another person, themselves included, throughout their entire life...no doubt someone will pipe up. Well hey, you perfect person, you can throw your stone.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Sorry, but to put all cheating into the same camp is just silly in my opinion. Yes the script is pretty much unanimous. Yes it hurts to be betrayed, yes it's the most painful thing I've ever experienced when it's the person I've loved most who's done the deed, but the why's and fixing the why's, if indeed that is possible (clearly with some or more it's not) is very different depending on WHO the person is and WHY they cheated. 

There are some who are clearly remorseful. Some clearly not. And that is why there are 2 types of cheaters.

And of course the mentally ill matt. Which makes a 3rd type. Do the sexually abused come under this type? I don't know.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Sorry, but to put all cheating into the same camp is just silly in my opinion. Yes the script is pretty much unanimous. Yes it hurts to be betrayed, yes it's the most painful thing I've ever experienced when it's the person I've loved most who's done the deed, but the why's and fixing the why's, if indeed that is possible (clearly with some or more it's not) is very different depending on WHO the person is and WHY they cheated.
> 
> There are some who are clearly remorseful. Some clearly not. And that is why there are 2 types of cheaters.
> 
> And of course the mentally ill matt. Which makes a 3rd type. Do the sexually abused come under this type? I don't know.


I think they would come under the category of mentally ill.

Also, some people on the ASD can be problematic. Not all, but some. They can think really, really differently to "normal" people and can do things that make you go: :wtf:


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> Sorry, but to put all cheating into the same camp is just silly in my opinion. Yes the script is pretty much unanimous. Yes it hurts to be betrayed, yes it's the most painful thing I've ever experienced when it's the person I've loved most who's done the deed, but the why's and fixing the why's, if indeed that is possible (clearly with some or more it's not) is very different depending on WHO the person is and WHY they cheated.
> 
> There are some who are clearly remorseful. Some clearly not. And that is why there are 2 types of cheaters.
> 
> And of course the mentally ill matt. Which makes a 3rd type. Do the sexually abused come under this type? I don't know.


First of all, take a look at LongWalk's post. He addressed what you are talking about. 

Also, you can plug in any excuse, reason, circumstance, or happenstance into the words, "neglected" and "unprotected". If some guy is beating her, she surely feels unprotected, even frightened, confused, battered, abused. She surely is validated in her feelings, no?

If she isn't getting sex, at all, from her husband, she is being neglected, no? Okay, I think we could plug in anything into this in a couple different spots. 

The end result is, she cheated because...she wanted to cheat. Unless she was raped, she wanted to have sex with someone other than her husband. So, I don't see an issue, because when you combine what LongWalk posted, it all fits together in most cases. There are always extreme exceptions where she was ill or couldn't think straight or some rape happened, which isn't cheating by the way, or something, but it boils down to, she wanted to, if she didn't have a gun to her head or a knife at her throat or wasn't knocked out and tied up, or some other crime.

Is there another choice? Are there any other choices if there was no crime committed? I think there are. So, she wanted to cheat. Plug in anything she told you. If she didn't want to have sex with whomever(insert your wife's AP), she was raped. 

I guess it's just hard to accept when we think that it was that easy? Well, again, look at what LongWalk posted. It wasn't that easy. Look at my post. It wasn't that easy. It was a choice. The harder it is to pull off, the more it was a decision, a choice. It's the only logical conclusion when there are other choices. Yes, she may have loved you like a brother, father, or uncle, but she wanted to have sex with that AP. One time? Sure, that one time she wanted to have sex with him, not you. Was it a decision? Was it a choice among at least one other possible option? Yes? Then she wanted to. 

I don't mean to hurt anyone. I really don't. I don't really care much about the AP, but that's me. You can like him all you want. I'm not going to do anything about not liking the guy, just hope he gets the same treatment some day with all the trimmings, just like I got when he chose, yes chose to seduce my wife, in an attempt to convince her he was the best candidate to have sex with, out of a choice of me or him. Did I have issues? Yes, but still, in general, i can plug in my issues and still come up with, she could have chosen from among a few choices. He didn't rape her. She was willing. It was her choice. I was the loser to her, and always will be.

Don't think this is easy for me. It isn't.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Remains said:


> No matter how morally upheld you believe yourself to be, everyone under the correct set of sh1tty circumstances has the propensity to betray someone they shouldn't do to one degree or another. Offer me one person who has never betrayed another person, themselves included, throughout their entire life...no doubt someone will pipe up. Well hey, you perfect person, you can throw your stone.


Well that explains why you think #1 and #2 are different people. You actually believe some cheaters are victims of circumstance. How very interesting and sad you assume that everyone has the capacity to act like cheating a scumbag. Sounds like the rationalization hamsters hard at work...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> I think they would come under the category of mentally ill.
> 
> Also, some people on the ASD can be problematic. Not all, but some. They can think really, really differently to "normal" people and can do things that make you go: :wtf:


Are you saying that those who were sexually abused, and then cheat at some point, are mentally ill? Or am I missing something here?


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Well that explains why you think #1 and #2 are different people. You actually believe some cheaters are victims of circumstance. How very interesting and sad you assume that everyone has the capacity to act like cheating a scumbag. Sounds like the rationalization hamsters hard at work...


No. # 1 is the person who cheats regardless of circumstances. #2 is a person who falls 'victim' to a whole bunch of sh1tty circumstances and has poor boundaries. 

Both are fvcked up. Just in different ways. #1 is fruitless to even consider a R with. #2 means there is some hope. #1 is a sociopath. #2 is someone who is just fvcked up. And no doubt there is much grey area in between. 

And yes. I do believe that all people have the propensity to do bad things (where I wrote this above, I thought I was clear in writing in general. Not just cheating. Obviously I was not clear enough. Betrayal can be lying to someone close, stealing, cheating). Most of us grow out of this when we leave childhood though. Some continue to struggle with these problems into adulthood. And some never. Ever heard of jail and rehabilitation? 

Some people are just more fvcked up than others. Some are just plain fvcked up and there's no hope. Hence the #1 & #2


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, plug in any excuse you want and it will probably fit. If you keep telling yourself it is a certain thing other than what it is, will you eventually believe it? Even a sociopath can be raped. Therefore, they can choose not to have sex with someone. Yes?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Are you saying that those who were sexually abused, and then cheat at some point, are mentally ill? Or am I missing something here?


Generally speaking people who have suffered from severe and prolonged sexual abuse as children (especially from a close family member) do suffer from mental health problems in later life.

Adult survivors of sexual abuse, PTSD, sexual assault points to some of the issues, including problems with


> Inappropriate sexual behaviors or sexual compulsivity


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, plug in any excuse you want and it will probably fit. If you keep telling yourself it is a certain thing other than what it is, will you eventually believe it? Even a sociopath can be raped. Therefore, they can choose not to have sex with someone. Yes?


What? 
I haven't a clue what you're trying to say here. Rape and choosing to cheat are polar opposites.

And if you think there is no difference between any kind of cheating and any person doing the cheating then what are you doing on a 'coping with infidelity' forum? Go straight to the divorce forum and do not pass go! Just cut and paste your response of cheat = divorce = no advice coming your way because it's all the same!


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Generally speaking people who have suffered from severe and prolonged sexual abuse as children (especially from a close family member) do suffer from mental health problems in later life.
> 
> Adult survivors of sexual abuse, PTSD, sexual assault points to some of the issues, including problems with


Yes, I'm sure that that situation would balance the liklihood of mental health problems in your favour...so to speak. But sexual abuse in childhood doesn't just come in this form and doesn't mean you will have mental health issues.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> What?
> I haven't a clue what you're trying to say here. Rape and choosing to cheat are polar opposites.
> 
> And if you think there is no difference between any kind of cheating and any person doing the cheating then what are you doing on a 'coping with infidelity' forum? Go straight to the divorce forum and do not pass go! Just cut and paste your response of cheat = divorce = no advice coming your way because it's all the same!


Yes, there is a difference. One they choose and one they do not. That's the definition of rape. Sex they did not choose to have, but was forced upon them. Are you equating the reasons you got with forcing her to be raped by some stranger? That's the other side of what you are telling me. And, that's what you are accepting, in a sense. You forced her to have sex with some guy you didn't know. I can't accept that. I didn't tell her to have sex with him. I didn't know she was going to or that she did until the deed was done. 

I already addressed reconciliation. 

You can try to reconcile. Others have. It's the difficult choice. You won't have what you had before. Is it better? I don't know. She cheated once. What will the next reason be? When will you again force her to have sex with some stranger and what will the reason be. What will you have done that time? 

There is no guarantee she won't. It doesn't matter how improved you are. What matters is if you have continued to change to please her for the rest of your life. 

Now, I can see reconciling with someone who respects you and themselves enough to decide to do something other than cheating, but as I posted, it's up to the two of you to decide what you want. She will always feel justified. She has to, as LongWalk posted. 

CWI is not the reconciliation section of the forum.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Remains said:


> Yes, I'm sure that that situation would balance the liklihood of mental health problems in your favour...so to speak. But sexual abuse in childhood doesn't just come in this form and doesn't mean you will have mental health issues.


As someone who has training in mental health and who has helped my wife through panic attacks when she has seen someone who reminds her of the male relation who sexually abused her as a child, I have to say that sexual abuse of a child does cause mental health problems in later life. It might not manifest itself in some people, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Plenty of grey areas in this whole discussion of cheating and what ifs and maybes. I just can't quite ride with the blanket ban types. 

I have a pretty good grasp on the psychology of folk and the kinds of people who are fvcked up. I would say that I should be more screwed up than my man given his background and mine, but he displays far more screwed up behaviour than me. I know more about manipulation and projection than I wish to due to the years of it I have endured from the people in my life. I have come out far more on top than I should have given my situation. There are extremes in everything, but most people are somewhere in the grey areas in between. People are complex characters, and yes, there are basic behaviour traits, but personalities warp everything when it comes to dealing with folk.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

My XWW's primary reason for cheating in the first place was to replace me with a man that made more money.

That didn't work out to well- except for my divorce settlement-


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

2ntnuf I think you are twisting what I'm saying pretty dramatically. I guess so it fits your situation?

I never said anything about being neglected 'makes' someone cheat. I said that that can cause someone to CHOOSE to cheat. Or at least, that is what I meant. And I certainly explicitly stated that both were poor choices, poor boundaries, and both fvcked up. 

I'm sorry but people I have read about on here and experienced in real life are very different. Some people have someone remorseful and who do everything in their power to atone for all they've done. Daily. Others do not give a damn. They are not the same people and their impulses and drivers were not the same. Yes they both said yes to extramarital sex. But for very different reasons and the outcomes were polar opposites. 

The reason my man cheated is not the same reason as why your wife or husband cheated. And I've read only a small handful of situations that even come somewhere close to mine. And I've done a mountain of research in order to 'get' what the fvck was going on.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> 2ntnuf I think you are twisting what I'm saying pretty dramatically. I guess so it fits your situation?


No, it's general enough to fit anyone's situation. I don't need to fit anything to anything. That's the beauty of the truth. There is no fitting. The answer is, she wanted to cheat. In all cases where rape was not a factor, nor some severe mental illness or impairment, it was a choice.



Remains said:


> I never said anything about being neglected 'makes' someone cheat. I said that that can cause someone to CHOOSE to cheat. *Or at least, that is what I meant.* And I certainly explicitly stated that both were poor choices, poor boundaries, and both fvcked up.


Well, I apologise for misunderstanding your meaning. Still, I'm going to have to say that I believe you are misinterpreting what I posted. Maybe you read the bolded text quote and not my original post? I don't know. 

If you didn't feel loved, if he didn't pull his weight around the house, if he refused to work, if he fill in the blank, is it possible to say your needs were neglected? Neglect doesn't mean just one thing. It can be any need you have. Maybe he was great in bed, but didn't ever communicate with you in a manner that made you feel heard and validated your feelings. I think he neglected a need of yours. Just an example for consideration. I don't know your story. 



Remains said:


> I'm sorry but people I have read about on here and experienced in real life are very different. Some people have someone remorseful and who do everything in their power to atone for all they've done. Daily. Others do not give a damn. They are not the same people and their impulses and drivers were not the same. Yes they both said yes to extramarital sex. But for very different reasons and the outcomes were polar opposites.


I addressed this in a previous post, too. You cannot accept that a person changes when they have betrayed their spouse with sex. I believe, in all cases, they do change. If not, there is no reason to consider reconciliation, since that person who cheated is who they are. Does that make sense? 

Yes, some do try to reconcile and atone. They must accept, if they are the person who strayed, that they chose to do it, or they will be likely to do it again. 

Any reason can be plugged into the original text. I've posted that before, too. And, somehow you accuse me of not reading or understanding?

Impulses and drivers? You mean their hormones have calmed or what do you mean exactly? If it's the hormones, they gave themselves to someone else in an attempt to satisfy urges they could not control? So, those folks chose to cheat? They wanted to satisfy those urges? If so, check back to my original post and see if I wrote, "They wanted to cheat" or something very close. It should be right at or very near the top. You won't have to search through the article. 



Remains said:


> The reason my man cheated is not the same reason as why your wife or husband cheated. And I've read only a small handful of situations that even come somewhere close to mine. And I've done a mountain of research in order to 'get' what the fvck was going on.


And I know it wasn't the same reason and I have posted that you can plug any reason you want into that and you'll find the bottom line is, they wanted to cheat. It was a decision. If they had any other choice other than cheating, like divorce, just one other choice, it was a decision. They wanted to cheat. 

I'm sure you've done your research. I've done mine as well. So what do you say, did you force him to cheat or did he decide? Maybe he was diagnosed with a mental illness or impairment? Is he is not capable of making his own decisions, it could have been rape. Otherwise, he chose it. Those are really the only choices, unless a mental impairment was diagnosed, in which case, I've covered that in subsequent posts(eta: since the original post) and even in the initial, but you'd have to read it carefully and think about it. 

Sometimes, we blame ourselves to get through the tough times. It's normal till we figure out they had a choice. Don't accept blame for more than you deserve. Bad marriage? Okay, maybe you had a part. Cheat? Ahh, I think that's a choice in most cases, as I stated in my original post. Please reread the original, if you missed that part.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> And I know it wasn't the same reason and I have posted that you can plug any reason you want into that and you'll find the bottom line is, they wanted to cheat. It was a decision. If they had any other choice other than cheating, like divorce, just one other choice, it was a decision. They wanted to cheat.
> 
> I'm sure you've done your research. I've done mine as well. So what do you say, did you force him to cheat or did he decide? Maybe he was diagnosed with a mental illness or impairment? Is he is not capable of making his own decisions, it could have been rape. Otherwise, he chose it. Those are really the only choices, unless a mental impairment was diagnosed, in which case, I've covered that in subsequent posts(eta: since the original post) and even in the initial, but you'd have to read it carefully and think about it.
> 
> Sometimes, we blame ourselves to get through the tough times. It's normal till we figure out they had a choice. Don't accept blame for more than you deserve. Bad marriage? Okay, maybe you had a part. Cheat? Ahh, I think that's a choice in most cases, as I stated in my original post. Please reread the original, if you missed that part.


I think we actually agree. I think maybe you just took umbridge at the way I worded my initial post. I wasn't making excuses. I was responding to the question of there being different types of cheaters. Which in turn answers the OP question. I was stating my opinion that I do think there are different types of cheaters. I certainly wasn't making excuses for them and there was nothing I wrote that suggested I was. No matter what kind of bad behaviour we are talking about, there are always reasons and circumstances that drive that behaviour, and every situation is different. Yes the cheating might remain the same, a choice, but the reasons are all different and the severity of the 'crime' changes with each person's situation. Someone who cheats on their 3 month boyfriend at the age of 16 is nothing like the woman who has a 7 year affair behind her husband of 25 years' back while raising 4 children. Change the genders as you please. The 16 year old girl could always grow into the 25 year marriage and 7 year affair, or probably more likely, not.

Just so you are fully aware, because you also seem to think maybe I am referring and defending my own situation due to the comments I make. I detest cheaters in marriage or long term relationships (or any relationship, but I don't think you can compare a casual relationship and a marriage.). They are weak and cowardly.

My previous relationship, I was totally neglected for years. I voiced my unhappiness many times and was ignored. I finally left. I had kids. I didn't cheat.

I then have a new relationship with someone I adore and love and never met anyone before as great in so many ways and think it is reciprocated. There are many reasons I have stayed even though I have been treated badly, but he is a cheater of the worst kind. He is selfish, manipulative, and behaved in the worst way possible while he was cheating. Once he was caught he continued to behave like a manipulative narcissistic child in some ways, but improved immeasurably in others. He wouldn't last a second on here and would get a very hot flaming. I take absolutely no responsibility for his sh1tty actions or the shocking way he's treated me. He deserves nothing from me, I have broke up with him frequently, but the many good qualities has meant that I have gone back and given opportunities for further improvement. He continues to improve.

I don't defend him or any cheater. Like I said, poor choices, poor boundaries, selfish behaviour. But if you were tried for cheating, just as you are for murder (because let's face it, murder is murder), all circumstances would be taken into account. Different sentences are given for murder...can we discount accidental murder for the sake of this comparison please. The end result of death is still the same, but the person doing the act and the circumstances why are always different. Some deserve more understanding. Others deserve none. My man is in the latter camp.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

Boredom, to much repetition, vacation from your relationship, Spite, depression, low self esteem. Pick one there's your answer.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> I think we actually agree. I think maybe you just took umbridge at the way I worded my initial post. I wasn't making excuses. I was responding to the question of there being different types of cheaters. Which in turn answers the OP question. I was stating my opinion that I do think there are different types of cheaters. I certainly wasn't making excuses for them and there was nothing I wrote that suggested I was. No matter what kind of bad behaviour we are talking about, there are always reasons and circumstances that drive that behaviour, and every situation is different. Yes the cheating might remain the same, a choice, but the reasons are all different and the severity of the 'crime' changes with each person's situation. Someone who cheats on their 3 month boyfriend at the age of 16 is nothing like the woman who has a 7 year affair behind her husband of 25 years' back while raising 4 children. Change the genders as you please. The 16 year old girl could always grow into the 25 year marriage and 7 year affair, or probably more likely, not.


I wasn't offended by your post. I believed you were at an opposite end, but seemingly justifying what you believed and attempting to prove your stance, which I disagree with. I also believed you were attempting to say that you knew more than me because you've been studying since this all happened to you. Truthfully, knowing more in depth doesn't really matter. That was the whole premise of my post. You can read, study and interpret all you want, but in the end, there really is only one reason they cheated.

They chose to cheat. 

They may have justified their decision with any number of reasons, excuses, or ailments, but the real truth is, if they are capable of making decisions, it doesn't matter what you or any other BS did, they wanted to cheat. 

Do you see the difference? In all your posts, there is a hint of acceptance. In my opinion, it's acceptance of the wrong thing. All you need do is accept that your spouse chose to cheat. That is separate from any reason, excuse, etc. for the poor communication, lack of sex, addiction to masturbation and porn, alcoholism, drug addiction, etc., that infected the marriage and helped ruin or ruined the marriage. 

You see, not one of those things put a gun to her/his head and told them to have sex with that person. Do you understand?

When folks get into reconciliation talks, they go in and say s/he did this or that they didn't do this or that and so I was unhappy, felt afraid, felt abandoned, or felt controlled. Nothing wrong with that because it's the truth. Once they say I cheated because I felt those things, they are blameshifting. That places the responsibility of the infidelity on the shoulders of the one who had no choice in the affair. If you asked almost any of the BS' here, they would likely say they would not choose for their spouse to have an affair. Were they asked? I don't think most were given that choice, but the wayward had that choice. 

Accepting responsibilty for you actions is important. Accepting responsibility for someone else's actions is harmful. 

What you are doing is defending a cheat, whether that's you or someone else I don't know, with teens dating. You want others to believe that once someone cheats, it doesn't make them any more susceptible to it happening again, than anyone else. I disagree. I think there are many things in that cheater's life that lead to a proclivity for infidelity, and I think carrying it out and using any excuse other than you wanted to cheat, is just means to an end. That end being to control the actions of the BS through fear. The same can be said for those who attempt to scare their wife into leaving the AP, and has been said. I actually have a difficult time with accepting the steps necessary to force a spouse, usually a wife, out of the affair fog. It really is harsh, but I try to accept it because I think many folks do accept it as proper. I'm not 100% sold on it myself. 

I can see that you don't believe the WS has made a choice of their own. Usually, when someone doesn't accept something, it's because they would have to believe something about themselves that is unacceptable and would harm them. I'm not attempting to harm anyone, just state my position with reasons which are simple to understand and easily backed up. I think I have done that with my original post.

I believe the reasons and excuses do not drive that behavior or action. I believe they drive emotions. I believe they initiate thinking. Those are a far cry from actions. We all have thoughts which we don't expose to everyone. When we are unfaithful, we expose our thinking. As you can see, there is quite a lot of work, in most cases, that goes along with and prior to infidelity. Was there any thinking involved? Was there ever a point along the way that they could have said, "I'm going to leave and get myself into a more pleasant life"? If that was a choice apart from cheating, can you really believe that what drove them to cheat was what you did or was it their decision to choose the path of infidelity? If there was no choice, the sex which is called an affair, was rape. It's simple. It holds up in court. It makes sense without much thought, unless you have to defend your own actions.



Remains said:


> Just so you are fully aware, because you also seem to think maybe I am referring and defending my own situation due to the comments I make. I detest cheaters in marriage or long term relationships (or any relationship, but I don't think you can compare a casual relationship and a marriage.). They are weak and cowardly.


You did that very thing above. You looked at them and then said they are not the same. I don't know why you even bring this up when it was never mentioned in my post? Will you explain why that scenario came up for you? 

I'm not saying you are defending them. I'm saying you are suggesting accepting responsiblity for things you are not responsilble for. There is a huge gap in understanding here. 



Remains said:


> My previous relationship, I was totally neglected for years. I voiced my unhappiness many times and was ignored. I finally left. I had kids. I didn't cheat.


So, you had a choice to cheat or do something else and you chose to do something else? Is that the same thing I've been saying all along, that no one makes that decision for you? It is a choice? You did not want to cheat? Someone else may have chosen to cheat...because...they wanted to cheat?



Remains said:


> I then have a new relationship with someone I adore and love and never met anyone before as great in so many ways and think it is reciprocated. There are many reasons I have stayed even though I have been treated badly, but he is a cheater of the worst kind. He is selfish, manipulative, and behaved in the worst way possible while he was cheating. Once he was caught he continued to behave like a manipulative narcissistic child in some ways, but improved immeasurably in others. He wouldn't last a second on here and would get a very hot flaming. I take absolutely no responsibility for his sh1tty actions or the shocking way he's treated me. He deserves nothing from me, I have broke up with him frequently, but the many good qualities has meant that I have gone back and given opportunities for further improvement. He continues to improve.


My suggestion? Don't let money or quality of sex cause you to stay with a cheater. Whatever his reasons, if they are used to say that's why he cheated, and not that he cheated in a separate decision from his reasons for feeling crappy being married to you, he will cheat again in my opinion. He has not accepted responsibility for his choice, his decision. You say you made a choice not to cheat in a prior relationship. He can't do that. His choice is to cheat. It's how he copes with the feelings he has when you do something or say something that bothers him. What in the world could be worth you always being on pins and needles throughout the rest of your life and never knowing for sure if, because you twisted the bread tie to the left instead of the right(counter vs.clockwise), or any other reason that he thinks is enough to "force" him to cheat, happens? I can only think of three major BS excuses, children, money, sex. 

Figure it this way. The major reasons for divorce are the major ones for attempting to stick it out and take all kinds of crap. I'm truly sorry. I can see how you are terribly confused, frustrated, and always checking to see if you did everything to his satisfaction. If we all change over time, as has been said here in numerous ways and threads, won't what sets him off on another affair change as well? Is it more likely those excuses will get weaker with time or stronger? It's highly unlikely they will get stronger, but only that he might learn to understand what is an acceptable response when he internally confronts those feelings. Some can accept that. He'll always be in conflict with his emotions and desires. 



Remains said:


> I don't defend him or any cheater. Like I said, poor choices, poor boundaries, selfish behaviour. But if you were tried for cheating, just as you are for murder (because let's face it, murder is murder), all circumstances would be taken into account. Different sentences are given for murder...can we discount accidental murder for the sake of this comparison please. The end result of death is still the same, but the person doing the act and the circumstances why are always different. Some deserve more understanding. Others deserve none. My man is in the latter camp.


So, someone dies because someone shot them? You want to know if they shot them because they were forced or even influenced. Is that person still dead or alive? Does that person who killed someone change in some way? Do they now have an easier time with killing? 

For an example from my own life in comparison. I started hunting as a late teen. I was all excited. I shot my first deer at a young age. It was my last. I saw him jump when he was hit with the 180 grain round nose led bullet traveling at well over the speed of sound at around 50 yards. I waited and then walked over, to see him drop his head. I didn't tell anyone at the time, but I'll tell you. I blew his lungs apart. It was completely legal to do what I did. I cried. I was hunting with some others, but they were at least the minimum distance required from me, which was a hundred or so yards. I can't remember. I don't hunt now. I felt a little queasy and wondered why in the hell I had to do that. Yeah, I'm a whimp. I guess. I did go hunting for years after that. I never got another deer. I tried, but maybe that affected me so much, I sabotaged myself on every hunt? I don't know, but have wondered. It changed me. Some folks would find it easier to kill after that. I know, I would have and did easily squeeze the trigger on the .30-.06. at other deer. I've stuck my hands inside other freshly killed deer and cut their organs out of them. I could not do that the first time. Everyone is different. Things happen that change us. 

Do you think that guy who shot someone else is likely to find it easier the next time or more difficult? That's a good comparison because it's the decision to do it that is important. The reasons become easier to find because, like in my example, I needed to get some meat, I enjoyed the taste, I had hunting gear and might as well use it, I was asked and they told me how much fun it would be, there was a sense of camaraderie. You see, no one forced me to do a thing, but it was easier to decide to go along. Whatever they said, made it easier to make the decision to go hunt again next year. If I didn't go, someone else would. It was my choice. 

I've tried to play along with your example and answer in a manner that would accept the limitations you placed on the discussion.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> If propagating my genes were the key driver of my behaviour I'd be killing my business partners and feeding them to my offspring.
> 
> What stops me?


Because that's not the biological answer. It would be if you could get away with murder, and who knows what we might be capable of if there were no law.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> With respect, none of which answers my question. True we're descended from social primates but live in far larger groups than our hunter-gatherer near ancestors.
> 
> The societies we live in are man-made structures which come with their own set of rules, morality, ethics, altruism, etc which make living together feasible.


I think that this is true. We are social animals and our ethics and morals are what is necessary for us to live together in relative peace.

It still doesn't mean that a wife won't have some very good girl friends for support if it becomes necessary and perhaps a male or two who could be converted into a lover if the need arose.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

BrutalHonesty said:


> So, what you are saying is that a woman cheats because her husband is to blame? He didn't do something for her and she screws another guy? Is that it?
> 
> Let me just ask you one question then... If the husband isn't fulfilling the needs and she has better alternatives why doesn't she just leave? why doesn't she just go and enjoy life with that other guy? Why cheat?


Many just do leave. We don't see them here. But that's not the point. The other guy is insurance against the marriage turning bad. At that point there is no affair, just a friendship.

Now the other part of the equation comes into play. The OM wants sex. In principle he wants her pregnant. That way he increases the possible number of children he has.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I wasn't offended by your post. I believed you were at an opposite end, but seemingly justifying what you believed and attempting to prove your stance, which I disagree with. I also believed you were attempting to say that you knew more than me because you've been studying since this all happened to you. Truthfully, knowing more in depth doesn't really matter. That was the whole premise of my post. You can read, study and interpret all you want, but in the end, there really is only one reason they cheated.
> 
> They chose to cheat.
> 
> ...


Again, you misinterpret what I say. It would seem to me purposefully due to the way you seem to relish picking it apart and disagreeing, except that the essence of what you say is in agreement with the essence of what I have said (clearly you'll want to disagree strongly with that!) 

You have stated things that I have said that are completely untrue, however, the way you deconstruct and then piece it back together so that you can disagree with it, I'm sure if I pointed out what you could prove to me that I had said it! I know I don't have to point out which parts because I'm sure you are fully aware of what you have written that was based on flimsy misconjecture. 

And the fact you think that I have tried to gain knowledge points on you in some kind of 'I know more than you' game is pure paranoia. 

I don't know if you have Aspergers or Autism (in which case I can understand the 'why's' of why you have written what you have in the way you've written it) or if you are a tabloid journalist (in which case you've been trained to write in such a way, to remove all context and meaning from a sentence in order to play about with the words, and if all else fails, make it up), but the way you have picked apart what I have written and removed it from its meaning and context, and then tell me outright things as fact that I have never said or insinuated, and in fact I have said the opposite, I despair. If this is what people are on the receiving end of when they first arrive at this forum I can completely understand the post, turn and run mentality. There's no way I am going to point out which bits you have fabricated about me or my opinion. You know what they are. And I'm sure anyone reading this knows too (if they get that far through this dull as dishwater diatribe). I won't be inviting more picking apart and twisting of my words. It's pointless having a discussion on a disagreement with someone who is blinkered by their own self righteousness. 

You put your opinion on here. I put mine. It seems a reasonable discussion based on a difference of opinion is not possible. 

Good day and good luck.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Many just do leave. We don't see them here. But that's not the point. The other guy is insurance against the marriage turning bad. At that point there is no affair, just a friendship.
> 
> Now the other part of the equation comes into play. The OM wants sex. In principle he wants her pregnant. That way he increases the possible number of children he has.


The big picture is all biological. Our experience of human relations is personal. We take it personal if we make eye contact with someone, smell their hair, caress their genitals, but it's all about passing on genes. Cheating is an additional edge. If people are still evolving – and nobody has won a Nobel Prize for proving that it has stopped – then the genes for cheating successfully may become even more subtle. This explains why cheaters often consciously don't know exactly why they do something that sets them on the path to cheat.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

I get why everyone is saying it is all biological. In the end of all things it all is. Without a body we don't have anything.

But I still disagree that our behaviors all come down to a simple biological explanation. Think of biology as this trunk and culture/reason (an outgrowth of our biological brain) as all the little branches. We don't have an infinite number of choices. We are limited by our physical bodies and biology, but we have thousands upon thousands of branches to choose from. Using biology as our trunk, we then reason out which branch/branchlets to choose from. Saying biology made me do this is to imagine human behavior in a linear fashion. One trunk and one branch sticking straight up.

We do not have free will where we have infinite choices. Neither do we have non-will in which biology determines our behavior. We have limited will. Each choice ultimately is our responsibility even though we have all competing sources of inspiration: biology, culture, physical space, information.

I studied Physical Anthropology, Cultural Anthropology, and have now in Occupational Therapy I have studied the ins and out of biology to the point where I have held a human heart in my hand. That's a powerful experience. You realize how biological we truly are and how much we take that for granted. But I also do agree with Erich Fromm's idea of the human will. His book Escape from Freedom is a good measure of this. Another book: Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl is another good one on this subject.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> "But broken doesn't mean bad. Just broken."
> 
> I understand the point you are making Matt, but I can't agree.
> 
> ...


Exactly

i know my x has problems with men and a difficult upbringing. The writing was on the wall that she may make the same choices she saw her mother make which was cheat for ego satisfaction and thrill. But even with that understanding plenty of people can have horrible upbringings and still not make the bad choice. In the end you understand where they come from but it doesn't ever eliminate the singular choice that one makes.

Same with a child abuser for example. Most have been victimized themselves when they were younger. So you understand why they are messed up but you never excuse the behavoir as ok just because they had it bad growing up.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Remains said:


> Again, you misinterpret what I say. It would seem to me purposefully due to the way you seem to relish picking it apart and disagreeing, except that the essence of what you say is in agreement with the essence of what I have said (clearly you'll want to disagree strongly with that!)
> 
> You have stated things that I have said that are completely untrue, however, the way you deconstruct and then piece it back together so that you can disagree with it, I'm sure if I pointed out what you could prove to me that I had said it! I know I don't have to point out which parts because I'm sure you are fully aware of what you have written that was based on flimsy misconjecture.
> 
> ...


I learned how to write like this, here. If you have been misunderstood, it's simply because you have not expressed yourself well. 

Sometimes it gets very frustrating when the truth is read. Some folks can't digest it. They have to have a reason or excuse. This just helps prove what I wrote. When you can't find a way to be understood, passive aggression and verbal abuse rears it's ugly head. Folks start calling names and armchair diagnosing. Acceptance is difficult for everyone.


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