# Maybe I caught her in time?



## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

My wife and I have been married 10 years, 2 kids 8 and 3. She is the consummate "good girl," doesn't even like to engage in much risque behavior at all and goes out of her way to not be too close even with our male friends. We have even had friends suggest things like swinging but she acts like she would never, ever do that, and it doesn't appeal to me much either. 

She has always gotten very jealous if I so much as glance at another woman. A couple times she has accused me of having affairs with women that I literally had never given a second thought to, just because I made some offhanded remark or something like that. I usually am able to talk her down from that ledge, and we have had a strong marriage, particularly in the last 2-3 years. Sex has been great. Aside from the jealousy issue flaring up once in a while, she is a very laid back person. And she is adamant about being respectful and never even giving the appearance of impropriety.

She lost about 20 lbs over the past year and looks fantastic, she is beautiful. I can see some of my friends notice it. She has really branched out into different things over the last year or so too....music, art, reading more, she is running a lot too, etc. She says she wants to be more well rounded and better at things.

Only about 3 months ago (well after she started this lifestyle change) she started taking an art class in the evenings once/week. She laughingly told me after the first class that her teacher was this total hunk of a guy and all the other women in the class flirt with him (he is married). She seems to really enjoy the class and gets upset at the thought of missing it.

About a month ago, while using a shared laptop, I basically discovered in the browser history the fact that she had been kind of internet stalking this art teacher. I could see that over a period of several weeks (not just one time) she had googled this guy, in every way imaginable....facebook, etc. She also seemed to extensively search on information about his wife. One search that was common seemed to be about his wife and her participation in a race, like a 10K or something. It almost seemed like she was trying to find out if the wife would be out of town. I could see nothing indicating any actual communication with him. However, somewhat alarmed, I checked into her email, and found about 3-4 emails between them....all apparently on the up and up, but they were in relation to her purchasing a piece of art from him to give to her brother for Christmas. The emails indicated nothing out of the ordinary for a business transaction. They also did not seem to indicate that they had ever met or talked anywhere but during the class.

But here is the rub. The first email between them concerns me. Apparently in class she gave him money for the piece of art. But immediately after the class, she had sent him an email saying that she may not have given him enough money to cover shipping. She told him to let her know how much it was, and she included her phone number. This occurred 3 days before I was to go out of town for 4 days for a business trip.

Before I left town, I confronted her about the web browsing history - but I did NOT mention that I had seen her emails. She was very, very embarrassed and said she was just curious about this guy and his wife. At different points she made different excuses.....at one point saying she thought he might be gay and was looking up his friends. At another point she said she wanted to see what his wife was like because she felt bad for her because he openly flirts with women in the class. I asked my wife if he flirted with her, she said maybe a little but she said she makes it VERY clear in class that she is happily married. I said I was obviously not happy about this, and that she obviously seemed to at least have a crush on this guy. She insists that she does not, and actually is turned off by his behavior.

I said I think she should stop taking the course. She said she would, but she was also very mad at that suggestion. She said she had done nothing wrong and never would. She tried to turn the conversation to times when she thought I was cheating or had a crush on someone else, and tried to equate her actions with that - but I have never really internet stalked someone like that before, never lied about emailing, etc. One person she thought I had a crush on was a player on our work co-ed softball team, and she said she never insisted that I quit softball, so it was unfair for me to ask her to quit her art class. Eventually, we kind of compromised that she would finish the semester taking the class, would make sure to never stay late or do any socializing with this guy, would keep me appraised if he tried to hit on her or anything, and that come summertime she would switch to a different class.

Over the next couple weeks we talked it over a few times. I have repeatedly asked her if she had any contact with this guy outside of her class, and she has always said no. No mention of purchasing the artwork. I tend to be the one pushing that we need to stick to budgets and be frugal, so she may not want to tell me about that because I would be mad that she spent a decent amount (probably about the same as the unimaginative gift she got me for Xmas) on this present for her brother. I noticed another email from the guy to her, just providing a link to a vacation spot they had apparently talked about in class. The next day I asked her again, has she had any communication at all with this guy outside of class? This time she said, "Actually yes he did email me with a link to this resort we were talking about in class."

(By the way the resort is far away and is not any kind of place they could be surreptitiously meeting up).

I asked her how he got her email address, knowing full well she had emailed him first. Her answer was kind of a punch to the gut....she said, "He is the teacher, he has emails for everybody in the class."

So in summary, everything reeks of her having a crush on this guy, reaching out to him with an email under the pretense of a financial transaction, and then not being honest with me.
Needless to say, I have been alarmed and felt betrayed by this, as I described it is not at all in my wife’s character to ever even think about cheating, as far as I know. I set up a keylogger, continued to monitor her email, checked all phone records, and have even followed her a couple times to make sure she is not up to something. She is not very good technically so I really don't think she could be communicating with him any way that I would not find out. I have found nothing to indicate any affair; all I know is she may have TRIED to initiate one, maybe he was not interested, and she definitely has lied to me about initially emailing him. She has done as she said she would and has been home immediately after the class each week, and I saw that her reply to him when he emailed the link to the resort was essentially, "thanks, have a nice Christmas, hope your kids are doing well."

Now I find myself in a kind of Purgatory. The fact that she blatantly lied to me is eating me up. I could come out and tell her that I know about her email to the guy and her lies to cover it. But the downsides to that are that 1) she would know I am monitoring her email, and it would be harder for me to uncover any issues going forward, and 2) there is really kind of nothing she can say to make it any better. I am sure she would say that she was genuinely only emailing the guy to make sure she covered the purchase with enough money, and that she didn't want to tell me about it because she thought I would be mad that she spent that much money.

So I am not sure what to do at this point. I feel like I hopefully caught her in time and confronting her about the browsing history was embarassing enough to knock her to her senses and keep her from actually cheating - for the time being. She can see that I am still very bothered, and she is going out of her way to be extra nice to me. Do I just try to forget that she lied to me, and just keep monitoring the situation, or do I confront her?


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Keep monitoring DO NOT REVEAL YOUR SOURCE! There really is little to confront about at this point. Thank her for respecting your marriage and transitioning to anothe instructor when that happens. But stay vigilant!


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> My wife and I have been married 10 years, 2 kids 8 and 3. She is the consummate "good girl," doesn't even like to engage in much risque behavior at all and goes out of her way to not be too close even with our male friends. We have even had friends suggest things like swinging but she acts like she would never, ever do that, and it doesn't appeal to me much either.
> 
> She has always gotten very jealous if I so much as glance at another woman. A couple times she has accused me of having affairs with women that I literally had never given a second thought to, just because I made some offhanded remark or something like that. I usually am able to talk her down from that ledge, and we have had a strong marriage, particularly in the last 2-3 years. Sex has been great. Aside from the jealousy issue flaring up once in a while, she is a very laid back person. And she is adamant about being respectful and never even giving the appearance of impropriety.
> 
> ...


Quit the class, no contact, end of discussion. If she's admitting to admiring him physically and she has access to him without your knowledge or oversight, then it's likely that an EA will develop if it hasn't already. If it wasn't an issue, she wouldn't have a problem giving up the class. She's probably at the point where she's trying to "prove to herself" that it's not a problem by sticking with the class but that's just a fog tactic to maintain emotional contact.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

She's got a crush on him for sure. Is the class almost over? I wouldn't let her keep taking the class since she's open about him being a flirt. It's okay for you to protect your marriage against predators. Even though she'll protest, she'll respect you and actually find you attractive for being strong and defending what's yours. 

I'd keep monitoring her communications (phone bill, texts, emails)and don't bring up every little thing. Constant "relationship talk" can be a turn off to her. If there's something going on, accumulate enough evidence so she can't turn it around on you and make you appear crazy.

Now here's a part of your story that's troubling to me: She's lost 20 lbs. and is doing lots of stuff. She's probably feeling pretty sassy and flirty. I presume she's doing these hobbies without you? I bet her SMV is higher than yours now. SMV is "Sexual Market Value." Most folks who marry have roughly the same SMV. 5s marry 5s, 3s marry 3s, 8s marry 8s, etc. Let's say she's now a "9" and you're a "7." That puts subconscious pressure on your marriage. She doesn't just decide she's going to cheat, but she becomes more open to advances from guys because there's a feeling she has that she's now "hotter" and above you in the looks department and you're not as worthy of her as you used to be. This stuff has to do with biological wiring. 

As Machiavelli (a poster here) would say, hit the gym (weights) get a new haircut, buy some cool clothes, etc. To be more attractive to her she needs to think you're the kind of guy who other women are attracted to. Chicks dig guys who other chicks dig.

Do more stuff with her. You should spend 10-15 hours per week doing things (not watching TV) with her. Rock the marriage a little to get her looking at you and bonding with you instead of the art teacher. 

Get the book Married Man Sex Life (not a sex manual) by Athol Kay. Lots of great info there.


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## Okie (Jul 14, 2010)

Did the artwork actually end up being given to your Brother In Law?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Never reveal your sources. 

The next time it comes up, (google signs of lying) tell her you are certain she is lying about something from her behavior. 

Google the "five love languages", ask her to take the quiz, you too.

Also, the two of you should read His Needs Her Needs, and Not Just Friends. 

*Get MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE now!!!!!!!!!*

here is a link to the blog:Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

Good luck, hopefully you can stop this before anything bad happens. BUT, she has already felt it necessary to lie.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Cubby has excellent advice. The type of exercise she's doing changes the brain chemistry. Ask any serious runner. That combined w the weight loss can change the way she views you and herself.

Add the fact that she has suspected you of cheating can give her a sense of entitlement to play around a bit - as "your" playing around, as she sees it, hasn't hurt the marriage. 

The final bit of bad news is her age. Staring to doubt if it's only you that finds her attractive.

Time for an honest to goodness heart to heart.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Also, is that really your name, or are you the silent, silent partner?


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Okie said:


> Did the artwork actually end up being given to your Brother In Law?


Yes. She still hasn't mentioned it to me, but I have seen an email from her brother thanking her for it. Her brother is a great guy and exceptionally generous with our kids so it was understandable for her to want to get him a really nice Xmas gift.

The class has about six more weeks. If I don't tell her I know about the email, what's the basis I have for insisting she quits the class? That she google-stalked this guy and she must have a crush on him? I feel like without revealing that I know she lied, it would turn into a power struggle where she would then tell me to quit this and that activity.

I agree 100% on the "Improving myself" comments, already have started focusing on me, have been working out....I used to have her cut my hair, but I made it a point to go out and get it done professionally, and I can tell that threw her for a loop. Not to brag, but I have some confidence, I am no slouch and am a good catch. She has had some of her girlfriends admit to her that they were attracted to me at various points.

I forgot to add in the initial post I am taking this very seriously and even if she never does anything else, I am contemplating a separation or divorce just because of the lie. I am not OK with lying in a marriage. The kids are a huge issue of course. I really want her to either a) come clean about contacting the guy initially, or b) go ahead and meet up with him some time, which will seal the deal for me. It's just hard waiting for one of those things to happen.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

JMGrey said:


> Also, is that really your name, or are you the silent, silent partner?


Good catch. I figured if I named myself Andy Dufresne somebody might think I was considering offing my wife and the other guy!


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Yes. She still hasn't mentioned it to me, but I have seen an email from her brother thanking her for it. Her brother is a great guy and exceptionally generous with our kids so it was understandable for her to want to get him a really nice Xmas gift.
> 
> The class has about six more weeks. If I don't tell her I know about the email, what's the basis I have for insisting she quits the class? That she google-stalked this guy and she must have a crush on him? I feel like without revealing that I know she lied, it would turn into a power struggle where she would then tell me to quit this and that activity.
> 
> ...


The big difference between the class and your hobbies (I hope) is that no one with whom you share your hobbies are people that you find sexually attractive. If that's so, then that's what you can tell her. If she feels that some of your hobbies are causing problems in the marriage, say by causing financial strain or taking up time that could otherwise be spent together, then you do definitely have an obligation to take her complaint seriously. But she has shown herself to be emotionally attached and physically attracted to the guy; all contact has to end and it isn't up for discussion. Add the "or else" (i.e., separation, divorce, etc.) in whatever manner you feel prudent.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Good catch. I figured if I named myself Andy Dufresne somebody might think I was considering offing my wife and the other guy!


Sorry. I'm a huge cinephile and that name caught my attention.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Good catch. I figured if I named myself Andy Dufresne somebody might think I was considering offing my wife and the other guy!


LOL!!


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Tell her you KNOW she's been untruthful about the amount of contact w him. You won't participate in a marriage where secrets that can destroy a marriage - one brick at a time - are held and guarded. 

If she wants to life a secretive life it will be without you. Ask her to deny anything you've just told her. "look into my eyes and deny it to my face if you can".


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> ... and even if she never does anything else, I am contemplating a separation or divorce just because of the lie.


You appear to be very rigid and unforgiving. Seriously, you would divorce your wife for lying to you?

Are you this way with the kids?

ETA: Maybe she lied to you because she didn't know how you would react and didn't want you divorcing her.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> You appear to be very rigid and unforgiving. Seriously, you would divorce your wife for lying to you?
> 
> Are you this way with the kids?
> 
> ETA: Maybe she lied to you because she didn't know how you would react and didn't want you divorcing her.


Honestly is as much a part of faithfulness as physical monogamy. Am I going to divorce a spouse for lying about whether I need to lose a few pounds? No. Am I going to divorce a wife who lied about flirting with a man that she has openly said is physically attractive, especially when I've asked her to respect our marriage enough to no longer see him? I would definitely consider it.

If she feared that reaction, then she must not feel that reaction too out of character or too reactionary.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

We live in an imperfect world populated by imperfect people. Throwing away a marriage because your spouse lies to you is a bit extreme. Now you might argue that if they lie to you then you cannot possibly trust them, which is valid. However, OP's wife has not cheated on him YET and he's ready to throw in the towel. Methinks, he'll be throwing in the towel on his future wives too.


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## kindi (Apr 28, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> I asked her how he got her email address, knowing full well she had emailed him first. Her answer was kind of a punch to the gut....she said, "He is the teacher, he has emails for everybody in the class."
> 
> The fact that she blatantly lied to me is eating me up. I could come out and tell her that I know about her email to the guy and her lies to cover it.


She didn't necessarily lie to you at all.

Just because she sent him an email doesn't mean he doesn't have her email along with everyone else who registered for the class, odds are that's completely true.

I think you're over reacting.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> We live in an imperfect world populated by imperfect people. Throwing away a marriage because your spouse lies to you is a bit extreme. Now you might argue that if they lie to you then you cannot possibly trust them, which is valid. However, OP's wife has not cheated on him YET and he's ready to throw in the towel. Methinks, he'll be throwing in the towel on his future wives too.


I think it depends on the lie and the extent of the lying. All lies aren't equal.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Jasel said:


> I think it depends on the lie and the extent of the lying. All lies aren't equal.


Which lie are you speaking about? 

I'm only going on what the OP has described.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

kindi said:


> She didn't necessarily lie to you at all.
> 
> Just because she sent him an email doesn't mean he doesn't have her email along with everyone else who registered for the class, odds are that's completely true.
> 
> I think you're over reacting.


Fair enough......and maybe that's what I want to hear. But yes, I do not look forward to a lifetime of not knowing which thing she tells me is the NEXT lie.

And maybe I am rigid, but I will not allow her to parse things to say that saying the teacher has all the emails is not a lie. It is a blatant deception....and I don't recall the exact wording of my question and her answer, it was just very clear it was a lie, no parsing about it.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

No more class and no more anything that involves art teacher.
If she keeps going keep checking everything and don't tell her anything about your keylogger or how you get your info.

How often do you take those business trips?Be extra alert at those times.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

kindi said:


> I think you're over reacting.


Not really... My wife also liked to play in the "technically correct" world of answers. She knows what he was thinking and chose to minimize. A omission is also a lie. She just isn't being honest at all about this relationship and how she feels about the teacher.

Maybe have a talk about transparency and how trust is easier to lose than it is to earn. Just reveal that you believe there is more she hasn't told you about all this. It is beginning to erode your confidence and trust with her. You just want to make sure as a couple you do not slip down that path and hope she can reassure you about this insecurity you have with this relationship. 

She very well may continue the lie.... Think of the appropriate ramification for that. I'd probably go with just telling her "I already know you are lying and it breaks my heart that your respect for me has come to this." Then walk and watch. Read the 180 and start focusing on yourself until such time she is willing to tell you all of it...

btw; if you rugsweep... you could end up with a spouse who learns how easy it is to do her own thing and isolate it from having to anything with the marriage. Lies and omissions become "normal" for anything that she knows you might question her about.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Fair enough......and maybe that's what I want to hear. But yes, I do not look forward to a lifetime of not knowing which thing she tells me is the NEXT lie.
> 
> And maybe I am rigid, but I will not allow her to parse things to say that saying the teacher has all the emails is not a lie. It is a blatant deception....and I don't recall the exact wording of my question and her answer, it was just very clear it was a lie, no parsing about it.


I have taken classes in the past few years and every instructor asked for an email address. If she gave it to him before her initial email to him, then it isn't a lie. Maybe call it a convenient truth.

BTW, are you absolutely honest with her about everything? You are conveniently leaving out the fact that you gained information through snooping her e-mails which is kind of a deception through ommission. I'm not judging your methods, it just seems you could give her a little slack.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

She bought the piece of art as a way of making the initial special, personal connection with the guy. The brother was just a handy excuse that could sound completely legitimate to anybody questioning it - the OM himself, the OMW, and you, the H. She set herself apart from the other women in the class who were flirting with him by stroking his ego with the purchase and paying a lot of money for it. In the process, she's given him and herself the excuse for exchanging e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and having further conversations outside of the classroom. She was offering him bait disguised as a perfectly aboveboard transaction.

This is, to me, the point where she has clearly crossed a line, not whether she lied about the e-mail (although she probably did that, as well). If she hadn't kept the purchase a secret from you, you could make a case that it's perfectly innocent, but she still hasn't mentioned it, no?


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

:iagree:


alte Dame said:


> She bought the piece of art as a way of making the initial special, personal connection with the guy. The brother was just a handy excuse that could sound completely legitimate to anybody questioning it - the OM himself, the OMW, and you, the H. She set herself apart from the other women in the class who were flirting with him by stroking his ego with the purchase and paying a lot of money for it. In the process, she's given him and herself the excuse for exchanging e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and having further conversations outside of the classroom. She was offering him bait disguised as a perfectly aboveboard transaction.
> 
> This is, to me, the point where she has clearly crossed a line, not whether she lied about the e-mail (although she probably did that, as well). If she hadn't kept the purchase a secret from you, you could make a case that it's perfectly innocent, but she still hasn't mentioned it, no?


:iagree: Stay Rigid Randall.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Paulination said:


> I have taken classes in the past few years and every instructor asked for an email address. If she gave it to him before her initial email to him, then it isn't a lie. Maybe call it a convenient truth.
> 
> BTW, are you absolutely honest with her about everything? You are conveniently leaving out the fact that you gained information through snooping her e-mails which is kind of a deception through ommission. I'm not judging your methods, it just seems you could give her a little slack.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Randell, if it's as you say, why do you think she's infatuated with this instructor and not you?


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

What does "Read the 180" mean? I see references on here to it....is there a link or something?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Paulination said:
> 
> 
> > I have taken classes in the past few years and every instructor asked for an email address. If she gave it to him before her initial email to him, then it isn't a lie. Maybe call it a convenient truth.
> ...


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Read here the sticky thread - fist one on the top of the first pg of this board


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't think you need to read the 180. I think you need to read "Married Man Sex Life Primer"


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Not sure what kind of place the classes are at but at my sons university all the professors have all the students email address. They communicate to the students that way . For example if they can not make a class that's how the student is informed. Even grades are given now via internet.

Just try telling her you know she is lying about who contacted who first and that the lying is killing your marriage. Lying about a man she has been stalking on the internet. Ask her how she would feel about you stalking a hot woman.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Paulination said:


> I have taken classes in the past few years and every instructor asked for an email address. If she gave it to him before her initial email to him, then it isn't a lie. Maybe call it a convenient truth.
> 
> *BTW, are you absolutely honest with her about everything? You are conveniently leaving out the fact that you gained information through snooping her e-mails which is kind of a deception through ommission. *I'm not judging your methods, it just seems you could give her a little slack.


Sorry, but dead assed wrong here. When you have positive proof of deception in the marriage, then it is perfectly acceptable to engage in clandestine efforts to uncover the entire truth to the betrayal that has been heaped upon the unknowing BS. I fully endorse this as a necessary and completely acceptable rule of engagement when the other side has lobbed the first grenade.

No holds barred when it comes to war, and make no mistake about it, this is marital war.

When there is a truce declared or a peace treaty signed, then you start working on being open and honest and rebuilding. But not a moment sooner. Oh, HELL no!

But until that takes place, it's battle formations.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

My take (and I've been around here awhile)...

She's got a crush on him, is therefore curious and looking for ways to gather information, bought the piece of art to get in his good graces, etc, etc.

However, it kind of just sounds like a crush, something immature that doesn't have any real legs. 

I mean, I've met hot women in my life and kind of checked out google, etc, to find out a bit more about them. But I'd never obsess over them, or do anything. It's more of a mild curiosity. 

I think in her case, because she's in his class and he's in front of her face regluarly as a result, it may have gone to crush level here, but a relatively harmless one. She's probably a bit embarrassed about it, privately. Hence she isn't forthcoming about it.

Just keep an eye on it, get her out of the class as soon as it makes sense, and make sure it ends there. Then just casually make sure for awhile that there's no future contact after she's out of the class. Couple months later, I bet the crush dies and it's no big deal.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I thought of something else. If you want to test her honesty a bit more, you can ask her, "Is this guy's artwork any good? Maybe he has something worth buying."

I think the reason she hasn't told you about buying that artwork, is because you've already expressed your concern about this guy, and told her she should drop his class. Kind of hard to come back with, "Well, I bought one of his pieces..." She probably thinks it would really piss you off, so why bring it up.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

RandallStevens:

Please read these two threads regarding an an "Artsy" type professor and her student and then PM the BH in the story (he's a member here) and discuss your situation with him. I'm certain he will give you some good advice.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/61098-third-strike.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...many-ruined-chances-count-mrs_mathias-59.html


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I agree that relationship may not have legs yet and it’s a crush. But there is a much deeper theme here at play. 

She knows what she is doing is not in the interest of the marriage: Hence the deletions and omissions. That also means she has thought about it, thought about how her spouse might look at it, knows it doesn’t look good, and then made the quite conscience choice to quell his concerns “as nothing” and delete the trail. She is now operating as a individual, not a team. 

Remind her and talk about what she values. Then add that she really needs to consider whether or not she really wants to risk losing it. She should give it real thought. Remind her that in your eyes, you would not risk losing her or the life you are building for something shallow or a passing fancy. It isn’t a demand, it’s asking her to consider her actions and asking herself whether it supports what she believes in or not. If they don’t, she needs to figure out why.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Hello,
Sorry you're going through this. You are much more proactive and aware of your wife's straying than I was and as a result you probably have a good chance of getting things back on track with your wife. 

I'm an art instructor, and I've received more than a fair share of flirtatious advances, some very overt, and some made me wonder if I was imagining things, and just to be safe assumed it was flirting and kept guard. 

From my point of view she has a serious crush. Sadly she is probably a lot more likely to do something about it than a traditional student in the 18-19 year range that are coming to terms with sexuality. Looking up stuff about the guy is in my mind gathering useful information to potentially act upon. The stuff about her bettering herself and branching out into areas *without you along* is worrying. She may not be doing it to consciously 'attract a male' and leave you but I think it should be viewed as her starting to exhibit animal 'display behavior', biologically speaking. Don't let her stay after class for any reason, if she goes to an art show for goodness sake go along, and if you want to snag her up take an active interest in art. If she sees it as 'their thing' you can erode that by getting involved with it and as a side benefit it might help you bond. 

If she didn't give Mr.Teacher enough money she could have handed the remainder to him in class, right? No need to make it extra curricular, she was fishing. 

I am shocked by how much some of my students know about me- trust me stalking happens. Crushes happen. You can't assume the art teacher has the right boundaries in place and speaking from experience there is some serious temptation coming at us. I don't ask for student emails but I don't need to it's part of the online roster. 

I think you are right to monitor. I don't think a lie or two is reason enough to divorce but the chain of lying needs to end or it will get out of hand and she may not be able to stop herself.

I'm not the best person to tell you what to do to get a woman to be honest with you, clearly, but doing "The 180" at least partially in your case is wise, and be firm with your expectations. Keep up the monitoring, I was worried about being perceived as 'controlling' but the fact is it should be viewed as guarding the marriage. I wasn't firm and decisive and after I caught my wife cheating I still was a wuss, gave a second chance and was betrayed a second time.

Good luck, you're in a better position than I was at this stage in the game.

ETA: My wife told me "I would never cheat on you" and a couple weeks later she was giving head to a student in her office, so those words are meaningless. After I caught her cheating and decided to reconcile I held her close one day, head against her heart, and said "Please don't ever do anything like this to me again". Her reply, "I won't", and I think she meant it. A week or two later, she's buying OM gifts and not long after she's having penetrative sex. 

I would have never guessed she was capable of it, and almost from the day we met considered her a "good" person.

ETAA: I'm reminded of a colleague that was approached by a student, she was clearly in love and told him she "could sense that the feeling was mutual, based on what he said in class". I was IN that class too and there was nothing I saw or heard that could lead her to think that, it was her fantasy mindset, and certainly wasn't a mutual feeling. He shut her down and told his wife and other art faculty.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She has a crush.
You never had crushes.. You were accused of having them. That's two totally different things. You are under no obligation to treat a real crush the same way she agreed to treat a non existent crush... I'll bet that ever time she accused you of an affair, you did everything it took to make her feel secure in her marriage. She has not done that.

Keep monitoring....You don't have enought yet. Figure out what your role is in opening the door for her to be looking elsewhere.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Some updates:

1) I made a LARGE glaring omission in the original story, one that looks like it minimizes this somewhat. I don't know why I didn't realize this/think more about it earlier. The initial email she sent ALSO included her brother's shipping address, so that's another purpose for that email. I also neglected to mention that sometime in the middle of all this I had asked her what she got her brother for Xmas, and she said "a piece of art." I asked her if it was her own art, and she just said no, mine is not good enough yet, but didn't elaborate and I didn't push the issue.

2) So I had a heart to heart with her, along the lines of what some of you here recommended. I just said, look I know you are not being fully honest with me. Lets get it out in the open. I asked her why she hasn't told me where she got the art for her brother, and her response was, "I assumed you knew that, once I told you it wasn't my artwork, and I didn't talk about it because I knew it would probably make you mad." I asked her if she had gone to his studio or met with him to check out his artwork....she said she chose a piece and paid for it in class. She also said that he kind of made an 'I'm a starving artist pitch' to her class and that several or maybe even most of the people in her class bought artwork from him. She says he invited everyone in her class to visit his studio, and some did, but she did not because she knew that would be inappropriate.

Sounds like it's looking a little better right? We talked again about any interactions they had on email...and she said there were only two emails, one where he sent her the tracking codes for the shipping, and one where he sent the link to the resort. But then she actually invited me to look at her email. I said OK. We pulled it up and searched, and this is where it got weird...there were (as I knew of course) about 6 emails. I think she felt caught because she got really angry. She said she had forgot that there were a couple other emails. I got angry and said, "look, it looks here like YOU were the one to initiate email contact, you did it right before I went out of town, and you included your phone number." She insisted she did not email first, despite the evidence right in front of us, and said that he had shown her his website in class with his email and asked her to email him the shipping address.

She then proceeded to get really angry, with lines like "I didn't do anything wrong....so I forgot there were a couple more emails....I would never, ever do anything like that....etc." I said you DID do something wrong, you just lied to me about how many times you had emailed each other and that it looks like YOU initiated it." She insisted that it was not a lie, which was pretty laughable.

Eventually we both sort of calmed down. She cried a good bit, but did not apologize or anything like it, just kept saying she loved me and would never cheat. We talked some more about her quitting the class. I basically said, "look, I am not going to tell you what you can and can't do, but for one I think you have or had a serious crush on this guy and I will not abide by you guys being any kind of "friends." I can't control you, but if you choose to do that, I will have to think about a separation. For two, I think if a married person has a crush on someone, it is important for them to not spend any time with that person. You need to look deep inside yourself, and identify if there is a crush there. If there is, I would expect you to quit this class now." She agreed she would think about that.

So at this point, I'm thinking that yes, she apparently has or had a serious crush on this guy, but that maybe she wasn't acting as much on that crush as I originally thought by purchasing the artwork. However, she did still lie about the emails and try to cover it up.

We have kind of made up, but I am still _somewhat_ doing the 180 thing, just for my own benefit. I need to be more emotionally independent and do some self-improvement of my own. We are not fighting anymore, but I am not as affectionate or complimentary as I usually am. I am making clear that things are not OK, back to normal, especially until she makes a decision to quit this class.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't blame her for not apologizing since she doesn't think she did anything wrong. A forced apology when someone thinks there is no cause for making one is a 'false statement' that will only breed resentment.

Your omission from what was in the email (brothers addy) reduces by a whole lot the suspicious nature of the communication. And since the other emails were fairly tame and not lengthy I would extend the benefit of believability that she forgot about them. 

If it was a crush, and it may well have been, she is now aware that the crush can lead to trouble. 

In your place, I would let the discussion portion of this go. You said what you had to say. She responded in a fairly believable manner. She got the message. Case (mostly) closed. 

Don't ask her for a decision about dropping the class. Give her a chance to either drop it on her own or to become more of a clear-headed student. Her interest in art is genuine after all, no?

I like DrMathias recommendation about you developing an interest in art too. Or cultivate an interest in something else that involves her too. Make nice.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Affairs start with crushes, lies, being emotionally involved, making up excuses to keep in touch with the other person outside of marriage ...and so on.

OP, I don't think you over reacted . Actually, your wife-thought she could get away without you noticing the crush she has on him. 
You caught her off guard.

She hasn't come clean 100%. She still covered up the number of exchanged emails. This should be a red flag for you.
You won't be at peace unless she comes totally clean.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I think you absolutely did the right thing but forcing this issue on the table and making her address the issue. I like that you said that if she insists on being friends with this guy that you will leave and that you (more or less) requested that she drop the class. The ball is in her court. If she takes to long to reach a decision (and more than an hour is too long in my opinion) then you know that you could very well be her "Plan B". Time for her little fantasy to end and she has to grow up.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> I don't blame her for not apologizing since she doesn't think she did anything wrong.


The fact that she hid the number of exchanged emails means she _knew_ she was wrong. 
She felt she was being caught so she was FORCED to reveal other emails.


I don't buy the story of her naivete.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

The word 'crush' may well describe her behavior until now, but it also implies an innocence and harmlessness, which belies the true effect it can have.

I don't think you have overreacted at all. I think she has been starting to hide things from you because she is developing some kind of interest in her teacher. As many other posters have said, marriage-destroying affairs often start just this way.

So, be vigilant. You may have nipped it in the bud.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

lovelygirl said:


> The fact that she hid the number of exchanged emails means she _knew_ she was wrong.
> She felt she was being caught so she was FORCED to reveal other emails.
> 
> I don't buy the story of her naivete.


I have to agree with you, even if she didn't cross any lines (and I don't think she did) *she was heading there and she knew she was.* The fact that she was hiding the e-mail and crying was because she knew what she did was heading down a sliperly slope. This reminds me of when my wife was e-mailing her ex-boyfriend behind my back and I caught her:

"I was doing nothing wrong."
"Then why did you hide it from me?"


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Art classes are held all of the time...can this one and the contact with the prof. and sign her up for another class. Problem should then be solved.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> If it was a crush, and it may well have been, she is now aware that the crush can lead to trouble.
> 
> In your place, I would let the discussion portion of this go. You said what you had to say. She responded in a fairly believable manner. She got the message. Case (mostly) closed.


I'm going to disagree with you here. I think she has to drop the class and go no contact. I think we all agree there is a crush here and we know what can happen with a crush when there is continued contact. The OP can't be with her 24/7 and he has to have some peace of mind. I think his wife has to come to grips with what is happening and make a determination on her part to stop it cold. I don't think she crossed any lines, but I do think something _can_ happen if she continues with the class.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I'm going to disagree with you here. I think she has to drop the class and go no contact. I think we all agree there is a crush here and we know what can happen with a crush when there is continued contact. The OP can't be with her 24/7 and he has to have some peace of mind. I think his wife has to come to grips with what is happening and make a determination on her part to stop it cold. I don't think she crossed any lines, but I do think something _can_ happen if she continues with the class.


I agree that the class should be dropped. And I liked Indy's observation that there are many other classes she can enroll in. 

Still, I would give her a few days to see if she comes to that on her own. It would show she's being reflective and considerate. I understand it could also mean she is making plans to go underground. But unlike many other cases on TAM, I just don't get that vibe. 

The poster knows her best. And he's had advice from different POVs. Randall needs to be a bit reflective himself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How long ago were the first email and what time period has elapsed wetween emails. It seems unlikely that she would have forgotten them. Its is also unlikely she would have volunteered for you to see them if she remembered making that many. 

This is tricky.

She may have thought she deleted them. She did admit that she thought yopu would be mad(jealous).


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Randall: I don't want to beat a dead horse, but just take a moment to reflect on something you wrote in your last posting and something DrMathias wrote to you. Please remain diligent.



RandallStevens said:


> She then proceeded to get really angry, with lines like "I didn't do anything wrong....so I forgot there were a couple more emails....I would never, ever do anything like that....etc."
> .....
> Eventually we both sort of calmed down. She cried a good bit, but did not apologize or anything like it, just kept saying she loved me and would never cheat.





DrMathias said:


> ETA: My wife told me "I would never cheat on you" and a couple weeks later she was giving head to a student in her office, so those words are meaningless. After I caught her cheating and decided to reconcile I held her close one day, head against her heart, and said "Please don't ever do anything like this to me again". Her reply, "I won't", and I think she meant it. A week or two later, she's buying OM gifts and not long after she's having penetrative sex.
> 
> I would have never guessed she was capable of it, and almost from the day we met considered her a "good" person.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

_Originally Posted by DrMathias 
ETA: My wife told me "I would never cheat on you" and a couple weeks later she was giving head to a student in her office, so those words are meaningless. After I caught her cheating and decided to reconcile I held her close one day, head against her heart, and said "Please don't ever do anything like this to me again". Her reply, "I won't", and I think she meant it. A week or two later, she's buying OM gifts and not long after she's having penetrative sex. 

I would have never guessed she was capable of it, and almost from the day we met considered her a "good" person._

Tell your wife this story, just tell her it happened to a friend of yours.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Randell, 

If I may ask you again. Why do you think she would be interested in someone other than you?


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> I asked her why she hasn't told me where she got the art for her brother, and her response was, "I assumed you knew that, once I told you it wasn't my artwork, and I didn't talk about it because I knew it would probably make you mad." I asked her if she had gone to his studio or met with him to check out his artwork....she said she chose a piece and paid for it in class. *She also said that he kind of made an 'I'm a starving artist pitch' to her class and that several or maybe even most of the people in her class bought artwork from him. *She says he invited everyone in her class to visit his studio, and some did, but she did not because she knew that would be inappropriate.


This makes me question the art teacher's ethics. That's totally inappropriate. His classroom is not a clearinghouse. If he does something like that, he's sketchy (pun slightly intended) and frankly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't want to say that just because he's unethical in one way he'd poach a married woman, but let's face it poor character is often multi-faceted. 

When I was but a fresh faced student, I had a speech teacher grad student announce to our class that he had been voted in as a member of student government. 
A person asked "Why didn't you tell us you were running? We would have voted for you too!" Many students agreed. 

"I didn't think it was right to use this class as an advertising platform for myself" was his response. 

That answer really stuck with me.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

DrMathias said:


> This makes me question the art teacher's ethics. That's totally inappropriate. His classroom is not a clearinghouse. If he does something like that, he's sketchy (pun slightly intended) and frankly makes me more suspicious of him. I don't want to say that just because he's unethical in one way he'd poach a married woman, but let's face it poor character is often multi-faceted.
> 
> When I was but a fresh faced student, I had a speech teacher grad student announce to our class that he had been voted in as a member of student government.
> A person asked "Why didn't you tell us you were running? We would have voted for you too!" Many students agreed.
> ...


This is assuming, of course, that he actually said that. She's already been caught in one lie so who's to say she's not lying here as well?

Not saying she is, I just wouldn't be too quick to assume she's not.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> Randell,
> 
> If I may ask you again. Why do you think she would be interested in someone other than you?


If you're trying to get me to acknowledge that I need to pay more attention and improve my "performance" (in every sense of the word) in this marriage, believe me I understand that, am already taking steps on that. I just bought the Married Man Sex Life Primer. I am not going to get into art, but I am going to pursue some other hobbies more actively. I am working out, and she has already made comments noticing the effect.

Also, I appreciated Dr. Mathias' comments. I am sorry for your experience, and I am under no pretensions that my wife is too much of a "good girl" to ever have an affair, no matter what she says. I remain very vigilant.

It was about a month from when she sent that email to when she "forgot" that she sent it. I don't buy for a minute that she forgot. She definitely tried to delete the first email, she just did not delete the "Sent Items" folder...think that's why she was surprised I was able to pull it up the other night. That she is so tech-unsavvy is also why I am not too concerned that there has been any communication I am not seeing.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

RandallStevens said:


> If you're trying to get me to acknowledge that I need to pay more attention and improve my "performance" (in every sense of the word) in this marriage, believe me I understand that, am already taking steps on that. I just bought the Married Man Sex Life Primer. I am not going to get into art, but I am going to pursue some other hobbies more actively. I am working out, and she has already made comments noticing the effect.
> 
> Also, I appreciated Dr. Mathias' comments. I am sorry for your experience, and I am under no pretensions that my wife is too much of a "good girl" to ever have an affair, no matter what she says. I remain very vigilant.
> 
> It was about a month from when she sent that email to when she "forgot" that she sent it. I don't buy for a minute that she forgot. She definitely tried to delete the first email, she just did not delete the "Sent Items" folder...think that's why she was surprised I was able to pull it up the other night. That she is so tech-unsavvy is also why I am not too concerned that there has been any communication I am not seeing.


Then no doubt she has been acting shady. Did you call her out on the deletions and trying to hide it.

You need a keylogger now since she now knows how to really delete the emails.

Maybe even a VAR to see what she really thinks if she talks to friends. VARs are insidious yet wonderful for getting the truth.


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## Batty (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh lord, you are driving yourself insane over NOTHING, and you have a chorus of internet trolls egging you on! My God, please do your wife a favor and leave now and let her find someone who will not make the new year a living hell for her!

And when you've done that, why don't you hook up with one of your comment chorus here, and together you can live naked in your glass house, and indulge your fetish for extreme honesty. Put out your eyes so you cannot see temptation, and pull out your vocal cords so you never tell the tiniest of lies.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

One VAR in the house and one in the car for sure.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> I basically said, "look, I am not going to tell you what you can and can't do, but for one I think you have or had a serious crush on this guy and I will not abide by you guys being any kind of "friends." I can't control you, but if you choose to do that, I will have to think about a separation. For two, I think if a married person has a crush on someone, it is important for them to not spend any time with that person. You need to look deep inside yourself, and identify if there is a crush there. If there is, I would expect you to quit this class now." She agreed she would think about that.


A question for you Randall: You put the issue of quitting the class and going no contact with this professor on the table and you asked for a decision from her. When do you think she will come to a conclusion? Do you think if she takes too long to decide, it means she is weighing her options? Or am I reading to much into that?


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> A question for you Randall: You put the issue of quitting the class and going no contact with this professor on the table and you asked for a decision from her. When do you think she will come to a conclusion? Do you think if she takes too long to decide, it means she is weighing her options? Or am I reading to much into that?


edit. since the question was for randall.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Batty said:


> Oh lord, you are driving yourself insane over NOTHING, and you have a chorus of internet trolls egging you on! My God, please do your wife a favor and leave now and let her find someone who will not make the new year a living hell for her!
> 
> And when you've done that, why don't you hook up with one of your comment chorus here, and together you can live naked in your glass house, and indulge your fetish for extreme honesty. Put out your eyes so you cannot see temptation, and pull out your vocal cords so you never tell the tiniest of lies.


So....this 180 thing....can I do that to Batty too?

Just joking really....Batty, I am not even sure you are all that wrong. I know the audience at this site tends to (rightfully so) look at things with the most suspicious eye. I understand the scale of this is nothing like the tragedies described in tons of the threads on this site. I am quite sure I need to not dwell on this, but she did lie and it bugs me. I will keep an eye on things, closely, but I am not even going to really bring it up with her anymore. I am not giving her a deadline on making the decision to quit the class, but her decision will affect my view of this incident. I have made my feelings known and I will continue to try to become more independent and interesting, and a better husband.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Batty said:


> Oh lord, you are driving yourself insane over NOTHING, and you have a chorus of internet trolls egging you on! My God, please do your wife a favor and leave now and let her find someone who will not make the new year a living hell for her!
> 
> And when you've done that, why don't you hook up with one of your comment chorus here, and together you can live naked in your glass house, and indulge your fetish for extreme honesty. Put out your eyes so you cannot see temptation, and pull out your vocal cords so you never tell the tiniest of lies.


Really? Read andy's thread and tell ou what you think:http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/63412-she-cheating-me.html


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

RandallStevens said:


> So....this 180 thing....can I do that to Batty too?
> 
> Just joking really....Batty, I am not even sure you are all that wrong. I know the audience at this site tends to (rightfully so) look at things with the most suspicious eye. I understand the scale of this is nothing like the tragedies described in tons of the threads on this site. I am quite sure I need to not dwell on this, but she did lie and it bugs me. I will keep an eye on things, closely, but I am not even going to really bring it up with her anymore. I am not giving her a deadline on making the decision to quit the class, but her decision will affect my view of this incident. I have made my feelings known and I will continue to try to become more independent and interesting, and a better husband.


Unfortunately, and I wish to God it wasn't true, but by the time a poster comes here, it is almost certain that something bad is going on. I can think of one thread in a year and a half where the OP was finally convinced nothing was going on. And he had to spend a night in a hotel before his wife would admit what she was doing did appear shady.

The odd thing is, a study supposedly found that a man's gut feeling was only right half the time, a woman's right 80% of the time.

I guess all that means is God/evolution gave men more paranoia and jealousy for good reason.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I get a gnawing feeling that Randall is going to be posting again in a few weeks telling us that this situation has gotten ugly.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I get a gnawing feeling that Randall is going to be posting again in a few weeks telling us that this situation has gotten ugly.


Really? I was kind of hoping THIS one will finally be the more smoke than fire thread I am hoping for. Thought we might get one from Andy then he found the 2000 texts...


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Really? I was kind of hoping THIS one will finally be the more smoke than fire thread I am hoping for.


I hope so too, I'd love to see some (real) good news around here for a change. I just think that she is in deeper than he thinks.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I hope so too, I'd love to see some (real) good news around here for a change. I just think that she is in deeper than he thinks.


I will keep you all posted. So far no real news. Keyloggers/cell phone, phone records still show nothing, so that's good. Problem is she is not admitting to any kind of crush and has not yet quit the class. I am not pushing her on that, in terms of arguing with her or anything, but I am still making it clear I am not cool with her having her cake and eating it too and am doing my best at self improvement and a limited version of the 180.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> I hope so too, I'd love to see some (real) good news around here for a change. I just think that she is in deeper than he thinks.


I'm more concerned that _*she*_ is in deeper than *she* thinks. 

These are very dangerous waters RS. You really need to get her out of that class, and into another one now! And also take the new class with her as recreational companionship. You may uncover a mutual bond that you didn't know existed or could be created.

But, as far as you allowing this to continue, you've been warned, so don't blame us when this sh!t hits the fan.

And it will if you don't do something now.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I don't think her behavior rises above a crush at this point and it doesnt sound like she's interested in having an affair. However, the bigger issue is she is disrepecting you by staying in the class. You are uncomfortable with it and have told her that. She should make the call to get out now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Ask yourself why she is checking this guy out. Has your sex rank gone down? Has her sex rank gone up? Boredom?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

3putt said:


> I'm more concerned that _*she*_ is in deeper than *she* thinks.
> 
> These are very dangerous waters RS. You really need to get her out of that class, and into another one now! And also take the new class with her as recreational companionship. You may uncover a mutual bond that you didn't know existed or could be created.
> 
> ...


Does he really need to police his wife? Remind her not to be around her liver? He's not her daddy. She's an adult and knows what's right and wrong. If she fails, it's her a$$ that's on the line.

If she can't keep her skirt up, then she isn't fit to be married. In that case, dump her and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

jd08 said:


> I don't think her behavior rises above a crush at this point and it doesnt sound like she's interested in having an affair. However, the bigger issue is she is disrepecting you by staying in the class. *You are uncomfortable with it and have told her that. She should make the call to get out now.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what bothers me the most about RS's situation. If she was really sensitive to his feelings and understood what was going on here, the decision to drop the class should have taken 5 minutes. The fact that she is taking this long to make the decision tells you something. If she actually goes to the next class? RS has to assume that she is in love with this guy and needs to dig in for an ugly time ahead with his wife, even if the OM isn't interested in her.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Just one more thing. I think RS has handled this situation correctly. There is nothing more he can do at this time. If his wife doesn't quit the class, then he needs to make his feelings known and then do a major league 180.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

RandallStevens said:


> My wife and I have been married 10 years,o 2 kids 8 and 3. She is the consummate "good girl," doesn't even like to engage in much risque behavior at all and goes out of her way to not be too close even with our male friends. We have even had friends suggest things like swinging but she acts like she would never, ever do that, and it doesn't appeal to me much either.
> 
> She has always gotten very jealous if I so much as glance at another woman. A couple times she has accused me of having affairs with women that I literally had never given a second thought to, just because I made some offhanded remark or something like that. I usually am able to talk her down from that ledge, and we have had a strong marriage, particularly in the last 2-3 years. Sex has been great. Aside from the jealousy issue flaring up once in a while, she is a very laid back person. And she is adamant about being respectful and never even giving the appearance of impropriety.
> 
> ...


I dont see any cheating here. Why sending this guy to war? omg....
be alert thats all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

dgtal said:


> I dont see any cheating here. Why sending this guy to war? omg....
> be alert thats all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sending him to war and we are advising him to be cautious. I see red flags and frankly, so did he, otherwise he wouldn't have posted here.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Not sending him to war and we are advising him to be cautious. I see red flags and frankly, so did he, otherwise he wouldn't have posted here.


Ditto


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

dgtal said:


> I dont see any cheating here. Why sending this guy to war? omg....
> be alert thats all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How many threads have you read here? Just curious.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> This is what bothers me the most about RS's situation. If she was really sensitive to his feelings and understood what was going on here, the decision to drop the class should have taken 5 minutes. The fact that she is taking this long to make the decision tells you something. *If she actually goes to the next class? RS has to assume that she is in love with this guy and needs to dig in for an ugly time ahead with his wife*, even if the OM isn't interested in her.


Middleman, not necessarily. There's some weird dynamics going on in this marriage that I'm picking up on. She accuses OP of cheating on her without 'cause', and he seems hyper-rigid (to the point of considering divorce if she lies to him.)

She might be rebelling because he really IS a control freak.

I dunno. But I think OP might have left a lot of pertinent information out of his synopsis. (Just a gut feeling.)


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Middleman, not necessarily. There's some weird dynamics going on in this marriage that I'm picking up on. She accuses OP of cheating on her without 'cause', and he seems hyper-rigid (to the point of considering divorce if she lies to him.)
> 
> She might be rebelling because he really IS a control freak.
> 
> I dunno. But I think OP might have left a lot of pertinent information out of his synopsis. (Just a gut feeling.)


I am sure I have not included something and it's hard to fully describe the entire history of our marriage, even in several posts. I am really not that rigid....am probably far more Beta than Alpha (see, I am reading the book) and not really a control freak. In fact I think according to Athol Kay I need to add a little bit of Alpha.....but then frequency of sex and her interest in it have never really been a problem, so that part of the book loses me. 

Middleman - "If she actually goes to the next class? RS has to assume that *she is in love with this guy*....." OMG Really????? I was not expecting that. I think she is trying to maintain the farce that she does not have a crush on this guy so she sees going to the class as showing me that she doesn't have a crush on him....maybe that's her Rationalization Hamster hard at work.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> I am sure I have not included something and it's hard to fully describe the entire history of our marriage, even in several posts. I am really not that rigid....am probably far more Beta than Alpha (see, I am reading the book) and not really a control freak. In fact I think according to Athol Kay I need to add a little bit of Alpha.....but then frequency of sex and her interest in it have never really been a problem, so that part of the book loses me.
> 
> Middleman - "If she actually goes to the next class? RS has to assume that *she is in love with this guy*....." OMG Really????? I was not expecting that. I think she is trying to maintain the farce that she does not have a crush on this guy so she sees going to the class as showing me that she doesn't have a crush on him....maybe that's her Rationalization Hamster hard at work.


RS,

I did something for the first time ever here on TAM. I read all of your posts to my wife. She said that your wife has recently lost a lot of weight and is more physically fit. She has started doing more activities to make her a more well rounded person. This all translates into her now thinking she is more attractive. She told you this guy is a hunk. My wife think she is trying to see if her knew and improved self can attract this hunk. She wants to know if she still has "it" or if she got "it" back by all she has recently done. In essence, she is looking for validation that she is hot. That validation cannot come from you because you're suppose to think she's hot therefore your opinion is not objective and by extension worthless. Because she is a "good girl" she can't overtly come right out and flirt with him but is doing this passively. So of course she was embarrassed when you caught her.

My wife suggested that you try to provide this validation for her but not in the way you might be accustomed. She suggests you alpha up and get nasty with her (her words btw lol). She suggests you treat her like you are a starving dog and she is a T-bone steak. No flowers, no candy, no "nice" compliments. Just raw passion and dirty sex like you can't keep your hands off her. She did say that if she doesn't get some type of acceptable validation from you or safe validation from another male her ego will not be satisfied and she is a prime candidate to be one of those women who cheats and later says "I don't know how it happened."

Edit: She just added that if you are out of shape she probably thinks of herself as much hotter than you. This increases the likelihood that she may cheat.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dgtal said:


> I dont see any cheating here. Why sending this guy to war? omg....
> be alert thats all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You do not wait until there is blatant cheating to deal with this. If your brakes are sqeaking you do not wait to fix them until they completely fail. Deal with problems when they are small. Do not avoid addressing small problems with your head in the sand. This is when to deal with them. Small problems can be dealt with also with less dramatic means.

The wife may have no intention to cheat. However it is a slippery slope. Nothing innnocent about a crush. 

If my wife had a concern about a class I was taking I would drop it. I also would expect my wife to do the same if I had any concern.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

bfree said:


> RS,
> 
> I did something for the first time ever here on TAM. I read all of your posts to my wife. She said that your wife has recently lost a lot of weight and is more physically fit. She has started doing more activities to make her a more well rounded person. This all translates into her now thinking she is more attractive. She told you this guy is a hunk. My wife think she is trying to see if her knew and improved self can attract this hunk. She wants to know if she still has "it" or if she got "it" back by all she has recently done. In essence, she is looking for validation that she is hot. That validation cannot come from you because you're suppose to think she's hot therefore your opinion is not objective and by extension worthless. Because she is a "good girl" she can't overtly come right out and flirt with him but is doing this passively. So of course she was embarrassed when you caught her.


Seems like that could be the case if she were openly flirting and if her target was not married. She is not flirting (at least that I can see) and it doesn't really explain why she would Google-stalk a married guy.

BTW my wife is not a very flirty or extroverted person at all ... she has always been pretty reserved and does not trust or open up to people easily. She is likeable, just doesn't tend to go up to strangers and start talking to them...and we have friends but they are mostly OUR friends. I am known as the more outgoing one of us. She could be operating totally differently when I am not there though.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Seems like that could be the case if she were openly flirting and if her target was not married. She is not flirting (at least that I can see) and it doesn't really explain why she would Google-stalk a married guy.
> 
> BTW my wife is not a very flirty or extroverted person at all ... she has always been pretty reserved and does not trust or open up to people easily. She is likeable, just doesn't tend to go up to strangers and start talking to them...and we have friends but they are mostly OUR friends. I am known as the more outgoing one of us. *She could be operating totally differently* *when I am not there though*.


You've said a mouthful.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

OP - you said "She laughingly told me after the first class that her teacher was this total hunk of a guy and all the other women in the class flirt with him (he is married.)"

If my husband came home from a night school class & told me the teacher was a "total hottie" & all the other married men flirt with her, I will assume that would also include HIM. Especially if the married teacher encourages the flirting. 

Then if he proceeded to email her about ANYTHING, it would cause me to go ballistic. College and/or degree courses are different as far as emails. Very common to communicate that way, but an art class for fun? Not to mention internet stalking her her husband. Yikes!

Are we to assume because he is a teacher in an authoritative position that she will not cheat with him?

If OP came here with a story w/o an art class about some male stranger his wife is emailing with, would the advice not be to shut it down asap?

He is a male art school night teacher. There should be NO emailing between the two of them after school. All matters regarding the class & art purchases can be handled during class.

Good luck OP & I do hope this is simply a one-sided crush & all contact ends when the class ends.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Randall, if she does stay in the class, keep your eyes and ears open for any 'last day of class' social outings after hours. Good opportunity and excuse to take things to another level and begin a post class relationship of some kind under some innocent pretense. Make sure her final communication with him is a goodbye on her way out of the classroom. Preferably the first one out.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

jfv said:


> Randall, if she does stay in the class, keep your eyes and ears open for any 'last day of class' social outings after hours. Good opportunity and excuse to take things to another level and begin a post class relationship of some kind under some innocent pretense. Make sure her final communication with him is a goodbye on her way out of the classroom. Preferably the first one out.


Agree.

When the class ends, all contact ends. He is not her "friend."


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

RandallStevens said:


> Seems like that could be the case if she were openly flirting and if her target was not married. She is not flirting (at least that I can see) and it doesn't really explain why she would Google-stalk a married guy.
> 
> BTW my wife is not a very flirty or extroverted person at all ... she has always been pretty reserved and does not trust or open up to people easily. She is likeable, just doesn't tend to go up to strangers and start talking to them...and we have friends but they are mostly OUR friends. I am known as the more outgoing one of us. She could be operating totally differently when I am not there though.


What you are talking about here is the mental wife. The problem yo have is your wife has upped her sex rank. Artsy fartsy isn't the only one she has noticed now. By upping her sex rank there is another whole subset or two of higher ranking males that are giving her the eyeball and more. This is heady stuff dor a woman. 

She has intentionally increased her attractiveness and outside (art) interests. What have you done? Stayed the same? That is not going to work.

Bad.............You ain't doin no artsy stuff

Good............You are reading MMSL (although I am not sure you are getting it yet)

Have you met the artsy dude and let him look into your cold dead eyes?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Also OP, you talk about how "beautiful" your wife is You also go on to say how she does NOT have any male friends & is not a flirt.

I am betting that "all the married women in the class that are flirting with teacher" are nowhere near as hot. I would even guess that the class is made up of some men & young single adults.

Your wife is standing out in this class to teacher. Make no mistake, he is flirting with her or at least she thinks he is & she likes it. Very much. Because she has enhanced her beauty with her fitness routine, men will be flirting with her all of the time. 

But you know this already. However, she must resist the temptation to flirt back.

You are very lucky that she told you about teacher so you can keep an eye out before it turns ugly. Yes, you may have stopped an affair by your monitoring & confronting.

This is a good time to have an honest discussion with her about boundaries. Quite simply, no male friends outside of couple friends of the marriage to include emails, texts & phone calls with ANY males which include male teachers.

She should have no problems with this because historically she does not have male friends. If she suddenly has a problem with it, red flag.

Also, please don't end your marriage over her lie. She enjoyed the attention from teacher & knew what your reaction would be about the emails. This all started off very innocently with an art class & she just needed you to step in & set up some boundaries w/o really knowing it.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> You do not wait until there is blatant cheating to deal with this. If your brakes are sqeaking you do not wait to fix them until they completely fail. Deal with problems when they are small. Do not avoid addressing small problems with your head in the sand. This is when to deal with them. Small problems can be dealt with also with less dramatic means.
> 
> The wife may have no intention to cheat. However it is a slippery slope. Nothing innnocent about a crush.
> 
> If my wife had a concern about a class I was taking I would drop it. I also would expect my wife to do the same if I had any concern.


Did somebody mentioned the word "polygraph" yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

You could hire a nice looking woman to to teach your son how to color in the lines while she is at "Art Class". Tell her that," I would NEVER lie to your DEAR!" and yes, she has my email!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you asked her in a nice way what she should do to repair this after her lying?


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

Emerald said:


> Also OP, you talk about how "beautiful" your wife is & all the plastic surgery she has had. You also go on to say how she does NOT have any male friends & is not a flirt.
> 
> I am betting that "all the married women in the class that are flirting with teacher" are nowhere near as hot with big boobs like your wife. I would even guess that the class is made up of some men & young single adults.
> 
> ...


Plastic surgery? I think you're mistaking my thread with another. My wife has done nothing like that. Just started running a lot and lost a good bit of weight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Plastic surgery? I think you're mistaking my thread with another. My wife has done nothing like that. Just started running a lot and lost a good bit of weight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ooops sorry, yes was thinking about another thread. Sorry & edited my post.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Seems like that could be the case if she were openly flirting and if her target was not married. She is not flirting (at least that I can see) and it doesn't really explain why she would Google-stalk a married guy.
> 
> BTW my wife is not a very flirty or extroverted person at all ... she has always been pretty reserved and does not trust or open up to people easily. She is likeable, just doesn't tend to go up to strangers and start talking to them...and we have friends but they are mostly OUR friends. I am known as the more outgoing one of us. She could be operating totally differently when I am not there though.


She does not have to flirt in order to bask in the glow of a man's attentions. She just has to not rebuff him. Men are generally pretty persistent. If he keeps coming and she doesn't push him away she is in fact encouraging him. Shouldn't you be concerned that she hasn't rebuffed him? What are you going to do about it?

Also, don't get too focused on this one guy. If your wife is trying to expand her horizons she will end up interacting with other men at various times. I'm sure some of them will be "hot" and I'm sure some will flirt with her. You need to make some real changes in your relationship so that your wife doesn't start to believe she can do better than you. Do not rely too much on her chastity and passivity. It won't hold up under such an onslaught.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

dgtal said:


> Did somebody mentioned the word "polygraph" yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why?

There's a time and place for everything and I don't believe that OP needs to be hooking his wife up to a polygraph just yet. From what I've read, there's no indication that she has cheated on him.

I guarantee you that she'll resent the hell out of him for even suggesting that she takes a polygraph. Polygraphs are for getting the full truth from known cheaters. In this case, I think it will serve only to undermine the marriage.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Not at the polygraph stage. He needs to be uber vigilant. Also agree with he must also attend any extra curricular "after" party or she does not attend at all.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Middleman - "If she actually goes to the next class? RS has to assume that *she is in love with this guy*....." OMG Really????? I was not expecting that. I think she is trying to maintain the farce that she does not have a crush on this guy so she sees going to the class as showing me that she doesn't have a crush on him....maybe that's her Rationalization Hamster hard at work.


RS: OK, I get it. "In love" was way too strong a phrase. Let me say it again and tone it down a bit.

"If she actually goes to the next class, RS has to assume that his wife really does have a crush on this guy and is not willing to give up the reason for remaining in contact with him."

Another thing to consider is that your wife won't give up the class out of stubbornness. If she truly believes in her mind that she doesn't have a crush on this guy and she believes that she is doing nothing wrong (which I don't believe), she isn't going to be told to give up this class by anyone, including you. (which is pretty much what you said, phrased a little differently)

Either way, you have problems ahead. If you are the one paying for these courses, you can always stop paying for them. As I said earlier, you have done everything you can for the moment. You're just going to have to wait and see. She hasn't crossed any lines yet, based on what you've told us.


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## dgtal (Jun 11, 2010)

I was expecting it next (the stupid polygraph idea) after somebody suggested the 180.
imo. none of the above will help at this stage.
Be alert, dont understimate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

bfree said:


> Edit: She just added that if you are out of shape she probably thinks of herself as much hotter than you. This increases the likelihood that she may cheat.


While I understand what she is saying and that is pretty much the conventional wisdom, this is just so not a justification for anything. Picture what would happen to me if I told my wife I cheated on her because she is 50 pound over weight and unattractive to me (which she is not, BTW)? I'd be taking my life into my hands. If she told that to me, she better do it by long distance telephone. 

In reading Athol's book, he seems to treat this as a given and that's a problem.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I think that bfree was on to something, though I would try a slightly different approach. The accusations, particularly in light of no other proof, seems to be a position of weakness on your part. Women like strong confident men, I think this would give you a much stronger position and more likely to attract her back her way. While bfree's thought of a night of passion works well, that is not something you can do 24-7. However, her seeing you be a strong confident man can be done anytime. 

You can still watch the extra's but don't obsess and stress both of you out, particularly when this has not proved fruitful. Yes she has lost weight and exploring the art thing, but that can be a positive and not a negative. He is not the only art instructor on earth, so this endeavor can be constructive, under the right circumstances. You don't want to be her warder, you want to be her partner. You said she is not overtly flirty or sexual to others. Watch from the sidelines and let her learn to invest in the art and not the instructor.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> While I understand what she is saying and that is pretty much the conventional wisdom, this is just so not a justification for anything. Picture what would happen to me if I told my wife I cheated on her because she is 50 pound over weight and unattractive to me (which she is not, BTW)? I'd be taking my life into my hands. If she told that to me, she better do it by long distance telephone.
> 
> In reading Athol's book, he seems to treat this as a given and that's a problem.


The problem you have with Athol's and my wife's opinion is that you aren't taking into consideration the different way men and women view the world. Men are primarily visual and women value emotional connection. This would seem to indicate that if a woman gains weight a man would not love her as much. And this is sometimes true. But you are not taking into consideration the fact that men come from a place of logic and women a place of feelings. Therefore men look at a long term relationship as an investment. Even if his wife may gain weight he has invested a lot into the relationship and therefore will not just dump her at the first sign of dissatisfaction. Women on the other hand operate from a feelings perspective. Feelings do not have a memory. Whatever she is feeling right now is not how she was feeling before and not necessarily how she will be feeling tomorrow. This is why it is so easy for women to rewrite the history of a marriage. If she doesn't love you now she must not have loved you at all or at least for a while. Furthermore her attraction to him is always in the now. She may logically remember when he was in better physical shape but her feeling of attractiveness is always in the present tense. Part of the reason Athol strongly suggests that men start getting in shape and banging the weights is to develop more confidence and more easily exhibit an attitude of dominance. This is attractive to women and it can effectively turn around a wife's feelings toward her husband rather quickly. In Randall's case I don't believe it has gone this far but it is clear that his wife now feels that she is of a higher sex rank than he is. Combine that with her apparent need for positive reinforcement of her new higher sex rank from other men and we have a budding problem. I feel the solution here is not that Randall needs to put a lid on his wife so much as he needs to reinforce that she needs to take care of business at home or he will be a sought after commodity by other women. If she is constantly trying to keep HIM interested she won't have the time or the inclination to seek attention from other men.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

I wonder if it is true that the teacher gave the "starving artist" speech in class. That would be a way for the wife to blame the teacher for her shopping amongst his art.

It would be inappropriate for a teacher to market his stuff through a class, so this is a possibility. The way to find out is to ask other students in the class. 

I did things I have no embarassment about whatsoever in terms of checking up on a wayward wife's stories, but mine was also deeper into an affair.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Wiserforit said:


> I wonder if it is true that the teacher gave the "starving artist" speech in class. That would be a way for the wife to blame the teacher for her shopping amongst his art.
> 
> It would be inappropriate for a teacher to market his stuff through a class, so this is a possibility. The way to find out is to ask other students in the class.
> 
> I did things I have no embarassment about whatsoever in terms of checking up on a wayward wife's stories, but mine was also deeper into an affair.


Probably depends on who sanctions the classes. That hasn't been explained ,right?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

dgtal said:


> Did somebody mentioned the word "polygraph" yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not me. I am more of a straight shooter. I am direct. In this case I would just ask my wife to stop the classes if I thought there was a big enough risk.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Not me. I am more of a straight shooter. I am direct. In this case I would just ask my wife to stop the classes if I thought there was a big enough risk.


Same here, except I would actually go so far as to make it an ultimatum. There's way too much smoke here to discount it as a false alarm. This is an EA just brewing into a PA, and I wouldn't stand for this sh!t one bit.

The truth of the matter is (at least as far as I see it) if she balks that much at giving up the class and contact with the obvious object of her lust, then I would just have her pack a bag and say good luck and good night.

No way I would allow this in my life. Life's too damned short as it is. Why make it shorter (and more painful) by delaying the inevitable if she doesn't willingly agree to the boundaries that are set from this point forward? If this is what she wants, then have at it....but at least she'll have clear picture of the consequences before this takes a nastier turn than it already has.

Then, it's all on her. She's been warned. Not a big believer of karma, but I am a big believer of you shall reap what you sow.

RS, don't ignore this smoke. You have a massive problem on your hands. I would suggest you handle it now, before it truly does get out of hand.

Ever heard of gaslighting?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

3putt said:


> Same here, except I would actually go so far as to make it an ultimatum. There's way too much smoke here to discount it as a false alarm. This is an EA just brewing into a PA, and I wouldn't stand for this sh!t one bit.
> 
> The truth of the matter is (at least as far as I see it) if she balks that much at giving up the class and contact with the obvious object of her lust, then I would just have her pack a bag and say good luck and good night.
> 
> ...


Good point. When I say ask, in my relationship that is plenty firm ... but I agree in many relationships a spouse asking would be considered just a wish. 

I would start with an ask. If there was any pushback I would then assert it more firmly but in my relationship that would be all that either of us would have to do.

If the marriage is #1 then anything that challenges it has to take a back seat.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think OP is perfectly justified in expecting his W to stop taking this class now.

This sort of dynamic isn't at all unknown & is a problem from both sides. The teacher is described as a 'hunk,' but we have no information on his character or history. Just because he's attractive, doesn't mean he's a natural cheater - he's married, maybe even happily so. He may also be used to having students swoon over him & may well have his own boundaries in place.

When I taught in my 20's, I had to deal with men in the class every semester hitting on me, some openly and some less so. It was always awkward and difficult & I had to talk to several to insist on professional behavior.

So, it's very possible that this wouldn't go anywhere even if OP's W really wants it to. That being said, however, I think it prudent to insist that she withdraw from the class. Her behavior to this point pretty much requires it, in my opinion.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Another thing to consider is that *your wife won't give up the class out of stubbornness.* If she truly believes in her mind that she doesn't have a crush on this guy and she believes that she is doing nothing wrong (which I don't believe), she isn't going to be told to give up this class by anyone, including you. (which is pretty much what you said, phrased a little differently)
> 
> Either way, you have problems ahead. If you are the one paying for these courses, you can always stop paying for them. As I said earlier, you have done everything you can for the moment. You're just going to have to wait and see. She hasn't crossed any lines yet, based on what you've told us.


You hit the nail on the head with this one. She has always been extremely stubborn. We have talked more about it and she is adamant that she doesn't want to change classes because of an issue that to her doesn't even exist. It's like now she feels like if she did quit, it would equate to admitting she had a crush on this guy. The more I push on this (or anything else we ever argue about), the more she will dig her heels in. She can be selfish like that. Have I said "Quit the class, or we get divorced" yet? No. I am not to that point....yet. She has agreed to no "friendship" or any contact whatsoever outside of class. At this point it's been about 4.5 weeks since the last email between them - the one about the resort - and after doing a ****load of checking everything, I am pretty sure there has been no further contact except in class, and she has been home immediately after each class.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> You hit the nail on the head with this one. She has always been extremely stubborn. We have talked more about it and she is adamant that she doesn't want to change classes because of an issue that to her doesn't even exist. It's like now she feels like if she did quit, it would equate to admitting she had a crush on this guy. The more I push on this (or anything else we ever argue about), the more she will dig her heels in. She can be selfish like that. Have I said "Quit the class, or we get divorced" yet? No. I am not to that point....yet. She has agreed to no "friendship" or any contact whatsoever outside of class. At this point it's been about 4.5 weeks since the last email between them - the one about the resort - and after doing a ****load of checking everything, I am pretty sure there has been no further contact except in class, and she has been home immediately after each class.


Trust but occasionally verify via email and cell phone records don't bring it up anymore with her BUT stay vigilant jmo.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> You hit the nail on the head with this one. She has always been extremely stubborn. We have talked more about it and she is adamant that she doesn't want to change classes because of an issue that to her doesn't even exist. It's like now she feels like if she did quit, it would equate to admitting she had a crush on this guy. The more I push on this (or anything else we ever argue about), the more she will dig her heels in. She can be selfish like that. Have I said "Quit the class, or we get divorced" yet? No. I am not to that point....yet. She has agreed to no "friendship" or any contact whatsoever outside of class. At this point it's been about 4.5 weeks since the last email between them - the one about the resort - and after doing a ****load of checking everything, I am pretty sure there has been no further contact except in class, and she has been home immediately after each class.


Then only time will tell; just be vigilant. One question: Would she object to you joining her for one or two of these classes? Just so you can see things for yourself?


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> Then only time will tell; just be vigilant. One question: Would she object to you joining her for one or two of these classes? Just so you can see things for yourself?


I like this. Ask to sit in - that you want to see what art classes are like. Most teachers view this as an ego booster. If the teacher says no to it, this may tell you something...


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> You hit the nail on the head with this one. She has always been extremely stubborn. We have talked more about it and she is adamant that she doesn't want to change classes because of an issue that to her doesn't even exist. It's like now she feels like if she did quit, it would equate to admitting she had a crush on this guy. The more I push on this (or anything else we ever argue about), the more she will dig her heels in. She can be selfish like that. Have I said "Quit the class, or we get divorced" yet? No. I am not to that point....yet. She has agreed to no "friendship" or any contact whatsoever outside of class. At this point it's been about 4.5 weeks since the last email between them - the one about the resort - and after doing a ****load of checking everything, I am pretty sure there has been no further contact except in class, and she has been home immediately after each class.


Does anyone else see this is a fitness test? If so, Randall you're failing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

bfree said:


> Does anyone else see this is a fitness test? If so, Randall you're failing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Could be a fitness test, but I'm not sure RS is failing. This is one of the reasons why I think he should sit in on one or two of these classes (unannounced) just to get peace of mind. It also sends a message.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Could be a fitness test, but I'm not sure RS is failing. This is one of the reasons why I think he should sit in on one or two of these classes (unannounced) just to get peace of mind. It also sends a message.


Good idea [email protected] blocking
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> Could be a fitness test, but I'm not sure RS is failing. This is one of the reasons why I think he should sit in on one or two of these classes (unannounced) just to get peace of mind. It also sends a message.


Just letting her dictate how this goes is essentially allowing her to invalidate Randall's feelings and assume control of the relationship. If he does nothing doesn't he lower his value?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

bfree said:


> Just letting her dictate how this goes is essentially allowing her to invalidate Randall's feelings and assume control of the relationship. If he does nothing doesn't he lower his value?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought about this and it is a concern of mine.....but I am not letting her dictate, we reached a compromise, she is not going to quit the class until this session ends but she is going to have no contact with the teacher outside class and will not ever stay late or get there early or anything. She will also let me know if he tries to contact her.

edited to add: although I guess from what I understand of the "fitness test," even compromising is a fail....so I see your point.

Am working hard at "upping my value." Unfortunately I was doing so many pushups I tore something in my shoulder....but lots of trimming up still being done....if she decides to cheat I will be crushed, but I will be ready for the open market!

Also, although she admitted it would be awkward just because of how much we have talked/argued about this guy, she said she was fine with me coming to the class some time. I may do that.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

bfree said:


> Does anyone else see this is a fitness test? If so, Randall you're failing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry what is a fitness test?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I hope you didn't injure your punching arm! LOL


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> I thought about this and it is a concern of mine.....but I am not letting her dictate, we reached a compromise, she is not going to quit the class until this session ends but she is going to have no contact with the teacher outside class and will not ever stay late or get there early or anything. She will also let me know if he tries to contact her.
> 
> Am working hard at "upping my value." Unfortunately I was doing so many pushups I tore something in my shoulder....but lots of trimming up still being done....if she decides to cheat I will be crushed, but I will be ready for the open market!
> 
> Also, although she admitted it would be awkward just because of how much we have talked/argued about this guy, she said she was fine with me coming to the class some time. I may do that.


With all due respect and as a devotee to Athol Kay I'm not sure you really passed this fitness test if it was one. She crossed the line between a teacher/student relationship into something else and then lied to you about it. Yet she got to stay in the class. If I were looking at it from an outsider's perspective (oh wait I am) I would say she is controlling the narrative here. Think of it this way. If you frequented a specific restaurant and began a relationship with a waitress in the same manner she developed a relationship with this teacher, including calling this waitress "hot," would your wife allow you to continue to eat at that restaurant? I would say not. Yet she gets to stay in the class thereby demonstrating that your feelings are subservient to her desire to remain in this "hot" teacher's presence? I could be completely off base on this but I've read every one of Athol's posts, read both his books, posted frequently in his forum and that doesn't even include all the other blogs and red pill sites I visit. Just offering my perspective.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

bfree said:


> With all due respect and as a devotee to Athol Kay I'm not sure you really passed this fitness test if it was one. She crossed the line between a teacher/student relationship into something else and then lied to you about it. Yet she got to stay in the class. If I were looking at it from an outsider's perspective (oh wait I am) I would say she is controlling the narrative here. Think of it this way. If you frequented a specific restaurant and began a relationship with a waitress in the same manner she developed a relationship with this teacher, including calling this waitress "hot," would your wife allow you to continue to eat at that restaurant? I would say not. Yet she gets to stay in the class thereby demonstrating that your feelings are subservient to her desire to remain in this "hot" teacher's presence? I could be completely off base on this but I've read every one of Athol's posts, read both his books, posted frequently in his forum and that doesn't even include all the other blogs and red pill sites I visit. Just offering my perspective.


Yeah, I just edited my last post to note that according to Kay, even compromising is a fitness test fail. 

But for one, calling the teacher hot in and of itself is not to me crossing any line. It is nothing but background to this story. We note other attractive people all the time. In fact I think the reason she told me is that I had told her about a class I had for work last year where the teacher was this really chisel-jawed model looking guy and how the other students in the class (which included a lot of 40- and 50-something women) just completely made fools of themselves over this guy, which as a hetero guy in the class was REALLY annoying. 

I like your idea of the waitress/restaurant though. I may just have to find that place!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

RandallStevens said:


> Also, although she admitted it would be awkward just because of how much we have talked/argued about this guy, she said she was fine with me coming to the class some time. I may do that.


Absolutely do it. You have to now, otherwise it will look weak. I wouldn't show up unannounced - what I would do though, is wait until right before she's going to leave, and say, "You know, today works. I'll go with you now." so there is no chance of preparing or warning each other (if that's even the case and I doubt it is, but just in case).


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Jasel said:


> Sorry what is a fitness test?


I'll let a very good woman blogger who "gets it" (well most of the time) explain fitness (sh!t) tests.

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/03/21/relationshipstrategies/why-we-sh!t-test/

In my recent post NAWALT and You, one of the things I advised men to do in filtering out unworthy women was:

“Display a low tolerance for unattractive behaviors. Reward only desirable behaviors.”

This led commenter Dream Puppy to share an example from her own married life, one where she lobbed a massive sh!t test at her husband:

I’ll give an embarrassing anecdote from my stupid youth. When my husband and I were around the one month mark, we got in a stupid fight in our apartment. I cried, yelled, stormed out, and slammed the door. Hard.

And I waited for him to do what every single other person had ever done when I threw a fit like that. Come running after me- look for me- call me to see if I was all right…

so I waited.

And waited.

And waited.

Finally after two hours. i got tired of walking around the park in a huff and went back home. He was on the computer.

I told him, “Um, didn’t you see me crying! You’re supposed to run after me! The guy is supposed to do that!!”

He said, “That is stupid. I am not running after you. Look what you did to the door. If the landlord notices, you are paying for it. Don’t be reckless again.”

“Um. Ok.”



Dream Puppy got exactly what she wanted in that exchange, which was to know that her husband could stand up to her emotions. She felt comforted, even relieved when he thwarted her attempt at control. She went on to say this about sh!t tests:

I have a little theory on sh!t tests. Women want power, as that is access to resources, but women also need protection. Protection from other men, predators, etc.
The sh!t test basically asks. Can you stand up to me? If the man fails, he is communicating to the woman that since he cannot even stand up to her, it is probably the case he will not be up to the task of protecting her and her children. This is probably why some women have such a visceral reaction to very beta men. They are communicating- “Sorry, cannot protect you or your children. I am WEAK.”
Our instincts would be to not mate with those men and avoid them at all costs.



I agree that sh!t tests are essentially a form of testing for fitness, or strength. Roissy describes sh!t tests as a woman’s means of “weighing your stones.” Sh!t tests come in many variations, from a woman’s asking you to hold her purse at the mall, to storming out during a fight, or even an ultimatum about the relationship.

I distinctly remember the first time I ever sh!t-tested a guy. I was in the eighth grade and he was a freshman at the high school. I had just moved into his neighborhood. He was a big guy, a very promising football player, and cute. He liked me, and was extremely attentive and sweet.

One day he talked about his father’s funeral the year before. As he described the feelings that had come over him as he approached the open casket, he broke down and began to sob. His huge, masculine body shuddered as he poured out his heart and his grief. I felt a surge of empathy, but also alarmed. I had never been in this role, and felt unprepared to cope. I also felt repelled as the tears streamed down his cheeks and fell from his cleft chin.

What I did next will undoubtedly strike you as heartless and indicative of the true nature of women, which of course it is. I share this admission because of its potential to reveal a glimpse of the female psyche, and because I do not believe that my response was in any way unusual or unpredictable.

A couple of days later, we hung out and he was back to his cheerful self, but now truly emotionally tethered to me. He gazed at me adoringly and told me how lucky he was to have found such a nice girl. He asked me for my photo, so that my face could be the last thing he saw before he went to sleep each night.

Here is what I said.

“I’ll give you a photo, but only if you do something first. You have to earn it. My favorite song is Band of Gold by Freda Payne. Tonight when you get into bed, turn on your radio. Promise me you won’t go to sleep until you’ve heard it.”

He promised.

The next day after school he came over and excitedly reported that he had stayed awake until 3 a.m., but that they had finally played the song. He’d been exhausted all day, but had done exactly as I asked.

I gave him the photo, and dumped him three days later.

At 14, I didn’t know enough to recognize and understand what I was feeling, other than the fact that I had completely lost attraction for him. He had leaned on me, hard, long before our relationship could sustain emotional intimacy of that kind, and he had signaled weakness. In my own mind, the cruel test I set up was really about giving him another chance. The only way he could have held onto me at that point was to call me out for being a manipulative b!tch.

I’m not proud of this story. It’s a story I’ve shared with my kids as an example of shameful behavior from my own childhood. But it demonstrates in very stark terms what a sh!t test is, and how important it is for men to refuse to play.

We’re wired that way. If you fail a crucial sh!t test, you won’t get a second chance. If a demand strikes you as unreasonable or gratuitous, trust your instincts. We’ll like you better for it.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

bfree said:


> With all due respect and as a devotee to Athol Kay I'm not sure you really passed this fitness test if it was one. She crossed the line between a teacher/student relationship into something else and then lied to you about it. Yet she got to stay in the class. If I were looking at it from an outsider's perspective (oh wait I am) I would say she is controlling the narrative here. Think of it this way. If you frequented a specific restaurant and began a relationship with a waitress in the same manner she developed a relationship with this teacher, including calling this waitress "hot," would your wife allow you to continue to eat at that restaurant? I would say not. Yet she gets to stay in the class thereby demonstrating that your feelings are subservient to her desire to remain in this "hot" teacher's presence? I could be completely off base on this but I've read every one of Athol's posts, read both his books, posted frequently in his forum and that doesn't even include all the other blogs and red pill sites I visit. Just offering my perspective.


I appreciate this analogy but it's not totally accurate. He could eat at any restaurant, any day. A class is something you sign up for, take for a few weeks or whatever, and complete for credit. Her leaving the class has more implications than just switching restaurants. 

I think Randall is going just fine.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

bfree said:


> With all due respect and as a devotee to Athol Kay I'm not sure you really passed this fitness test if it was one. She crossed the line between a teacher/student relationship into something else and then lied to you about it. Yet she got to stay in the class. If I were looking at it from an outsider's perspective (oh wait I am) I would say she is controlling the narrative here. Think of it this way. If you frequented a specific restaurant and began a relationship with a waitress in the same manner she developed a relationship with this teacher, including calling this waitress "hot," would your wife allow you to continue to eat at that restaurant? I would say not. Yet she gets to stay in the class thereby demonstrating that your feelings are subservient to her desire to remain in this "hot" teacher's presence? I could be completely off base on this but I've read every one of Athol's posts, read both his books, posted frequently in his forum and that doesn't even include all the other blogs and red pill sites I visit. Just offering my perspective.


A few emails, looking him up on google, does not, by itself indicate a relationship beyond teacher student. Lying about the emails would have been a big red flag but they were innocuous messages. They also did not continue. She is a stubborn woman which is not necessarily a bad thing. I expect she felt trapped and wishes she had never lied about that. She may have just thought that was easier.

Its claimed the average person tells small lies hundreds of times a week.

It could be nothing or it could be a lot. No reason yet though, to go overboard and ruin a great marriage.

Her new behaviors however need close scruitny.

Jealousy and paranoia are tools that need to be used with caution but definitely not ignored.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Yeah, I just edited my last post to note that according to Kay, even compromising is a fitness test fail.
> 
> But for one, calling the teacher hot in and of itself is not to me crossing any line. It is nothing but background to this story. We note other attractive people all the time. In fact I think the reason she told me is that I had told her about a class I had for work last year where the teacher was this really chisel-jawed model looking guy and how the other students in the class (which included a lot of 40- and 50-something women) just completely made fools of themselves over this guy, which as a hetero guy in the class was REALLY annoying.
> 
> I like your idea of the waitress/restaurant though. I may just have to find that place!


No, just calling the teacher hot is not in and of itself a problem. But rarely do we get just one thing that illuminates things for us. More often than not it is a series or combination of things that when put together complete the puzzle. Teacher is hot, I'm emailing teacher, I Google search teacher, I buy artwork from teacher, I hide my browsing history and communication with teacher from my husband, even when confronted I continue to lie even though its right in front of me, I react defensively to my husband catching me, I continue to push back and try to keep control of the situation because I like this teacher, I compromise with husband so that I can keep getting my dopamine fix from my hot teacher....I win!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

chapparal said:


> A few emails, looking him up on google, does not, by itself indicate a relationship beyond teacher student. Lying about the emails would have been a big red flag but they were innocuous messages. They also did not continue. She is a stubborn woman which is not necessarily a bad thing. I expect she felt trapped and wishes she had never lied about that. She may have just thought that was easier.
> 
> Its claimed the average person tells small lies hundreds of times a week.
> 
> ...


Maybe but how often do we ignore those tools and find out months or years later that we should have heeded our instincts better.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Also, although she admitted it would be awkward just because of how much we have talked/argued about this guy, she said she was fine with me coming to the class *some time*. I may do that.


Make "sometime" next time....and the next time.....and the next time. Make it as uncomfortable as possible. Make it not worth the effort for either of them.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I had to edit this line, *Jealousy and paranoia are tools that need to be used with caution but definitely not ignored.*

I don't see googleing someone as stalking either. More people need googled.

What kind of things turned up when he was googled? People are naturally nosey.

What other kinds of emails did you find in her deleted emails? That could make me more suspicious. I don't email much so do you have to delete sent emails to have room for more?

Did it look like she only deleted emails to him?


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

I think Randall is doing well under the circumstances. I think he gave a proportional response to her behavior and stopped her from going down a dark road. We all agree that his work is not done, in fact given her recent changes, it is just beginning. Randall seems to get this much more than most who come here with an issue. Stay frosty Randall.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

bfree said:


> Just letting her dictate how this goes is essentially allowing her to invalidate Randall's feelings and assume control of the relationship. If he does nothing doesn't he lower his value?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now I get it. You could be right


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## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

bfree said:


> Maybe but how often do we ignore those tools and find out months or years later that we should have heeded our instincts better.


I solute you,Bfree. If I had been in your mind set, I would not waste my 15 years of marriage! I wish I could divorce earlier. I keep ignore these warning signs and my wife is a master to explain them away. I was too weak to act. I thought "It is bad. But I can not just end my marriage because of this thing.".These signs added up but I keep ignor them. Now I lost respect from her and I slip into low self esteem. The shi!t test is here for a reason. It tests if you are a real man and has such a gut. I see lots of affairs happen to a beta male. Hi, can we start to be a man!

I hope RS can have serious thought about him and his marriage. Just put your wife on pedestal will not work. This may be a beginning of an affair, or a beginning of your boundary against future affairs. if you can not enforce your boundary, then you are counting luck to rein in your wife. I believe so many marriages without affairs are either because affairs are secretly underground, or they just are lucky enough to not have such a chance or temptation. A true marriage is few and far between and it need works!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

bfree said:


> No, just calling the teacher hot is not in and of itself a problem. But rarely do we get just one thing that illuminates things for us. More often than not it is a series or combination of things that when put together complete the puzzle. *Teacher is hot, I'm emailing teacher, I Google search teacher, I buy artwork from teacher, I hide my browsing history and communication with teacher from my husband, even when confronted I continue to lie even though its right in front of me, I react defensively to my husband catching me, I continue to push back and try to keep control of the situation because I like this teacher, I compromise with husband so that I can keep getting my dopamine fix from my hot teacher....I win!*


Make a list from this bolded part and show it to your wife and ask her if that would not make her uncomfortable if the shoe were on the other foot. If she denies it, tell her you will do just that and see if she has the same reaction.

I'm concerned more about her general change in behavior. Not that anything is wrong with improving one's self but what brought it on now?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Make a list from this bolded part and show it to your wife and ask her if that would not make her uncomfortable if the shoe were on the other foot. If she denies it, tell her you will do just that and see if she has the same reaction.
> 
> I'm concerned more about her general change in behavior. Not that anything is wrong with improving one's self but what brought it on now?


:iagree: Think about this please!


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

It's a bit hard to tell if RS was being weak or not by allowing his wife to keep on with the class.
There's so much about a man's attitude, the tone of the voice, the way he asked/demanded her to leave the class...and so on. 

But one thing is for sure. An Alpha man wouldn't allow his wife to keep going to THAT class. He'd either demand her drop the class at all or change the class and have a female professor.


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## Cdelta02 (Sep 20, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Yeah, I just edited my last post to note that according to Kay, even compromising is a fitness test fail.
> 
> But for one, calling the teacher hot in and of itself is not to me crossing any line. It is nothing but background to this story. We note other attractive people all the time. In fact I think the reason she told me is that I had told her about a class I had for work last year where the teacher was this really chisel-jawed model looking guy and how the other students in the class (which included a lot of 40- and 50-something women) just completely made fools of themselves over this guy, which as a hetero guy in the class was REALLY annoying.
> 
> I like your idea of the waitress/restaurant though. I may just have to find that place!


You pointing out that a MALE teacher is hot and has women fawning over him is not an equivalent situation unless you are gay. I dont see any similarity between this situation and your wife's.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

LOL at the sh!t test thing. i remember passing one oh so long ago. my wife was my gf at the time. we were on vacation together. it came down to an A or B choice. I picked A and she got mad for several hours because of it. the right answer was B. 

NExt day same question comes up. A or B. AHA! I will pick B this time! we are driving at 60 miles an hour at the time. she switched the answer and GOT MAD again!

remember we are going 60 at the time? she got mad again... I slammed the brakes on HARD... the ABS kicked in. i remember the pulsing in my foot vividly to this day. The car comes to a stop in the middle of the highway. I turned to her in absolute rage and scream at her that if the correct answer is B yesterday it better be ( insert tons of expletives here) B today! 

10 seconds later the tears stop, she got nice, apologized sort of. come to think of it i think that might have been the night SHE initiated...

sorry for the hijack.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Yeah, women love it when we pass their tests. Last week my wife was getting ready to go out. She was standing in front of her mirror putting on her makeup. She said "I need a facelift." I walked over to her, grab her head and planted a huge kiss (a 10 second Athol Kay kiss) on her. Then as I walked away I said "You will not be getting a face lift. I think its at the perfect height right now."

Yeah, I got this.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

> Also, although she admitted it would be awkward just because of how much we have talked/argued about this guy, she said she was fine with me coming to the class some time. I may do that.



You Better. Don't half step now.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Did we just have a thread with a reasonably happy ending? WOW! awesome. Keep it up Randall.


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## RandallStevens (Jan 8, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Did we just have a thread with a reasonably happy ending? WOW! awesome. Keep it up Randall.


Yeah, and just today she told me she was going to switch classes. The 180 worked I guess but she is still kind of pissed off and saying things like she feels like there is nothing in her life she has control over. Something I need to address for the future. I am also fully convinced at this point that nothing else ever happened between them. It makes me feel kind of silly but at the same time it's still possible though unlikely, that she TRIED to initiate something and he failed to respond. I will remain vigilant and am going to keep up the MAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Your chick is way wrong, she has alot of control over keeping her marriage or not, she has a lot of control over being happy that she is part of a happy family. 

In fact she has all the control in making her self happy instead of depending on other to make her happy by telling you what her needs are and excepting her control over making you happy so that everyone is happy.

Its wierd, but she has alot of control and its messed up she doesn't see this, and has the capacity to think that her unhealthy actions are something that makes her feel like she is lossing control!

Geeze she has total control over have a healthy marriage and family! 

Whats up with that?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> it's still possible though unlikely, that she TRIED to initiate something and he failed to respond.


I lean more towards likely. No reason to lie otherwise. 

There's a couple of reasons I would want to chat with someone else taking the class. For one thing, students pick up right away on vibes between teacher and student. Either one-way or two-way vibes, they'll know. 

But she also said that he gave a starving artist speech and encouraged students to buy his art. If he gave no such speech, that is a pretty brazen lie to cover an attempt at initiation.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Sounds like you created some resentment here. I'm not sure if her response about "not having control" is positive. Are you controlling? 




RandallStevens said:


> Yeah, and just today she told me she was going to switch classes. The 180 worked I guess but she is still kind of pissed off and saying things like she feels like there is nothing in her life she has control over. Something I need to address for the future. I am also fully convinced at this point that nothing else ever happened between them. It makes me feel kind of silly but at the same time it's still possible though unlikely, that she TRIED to initiate something and he failed to respond. I will remain vigilant and am going to keep up the MAP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

RandallStevens said:


> Yeah, and just today she told me she was going to switch classes. The 180 worked I guess but she is still kind of pissed off and saying things like she feels like there is nothing in her life she has control over. Something I need to address for the future. I am also fully convinced at this point that nothing else ever happened between them. It makes me feel kind of silly but at the same time it's still possible though unlikely, that she TRIED to initiate something and he failed to respond. I will remain vigilant and am going to keep up the MAP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Randall,

Make sure she follows through with this decision. It looks like she still respects you enough to do the right thing.....this time. Don't worry about her statement about not being in control. Don't worry about her being upset. This is the absolute correct reaction she should be having. And don't feel silly at all. This was at the very least a very big fitness (sh!t) test. And it could be that she was attempting to begin an affair of some kind but she doesn't have the guts to actually push hard enough for it. At any rate it looks like you passed this test. Don't rest on your laurels. Continue to follow the MAP and build yourself up. Ratchet up the respect level by taking the lead more often. Instead of asking if she'd like to go out a restaurant, tell her "get on your coat, we're going out" and just take her not even telling her where you are going. Instead of asking her if she'd like to go to say an antique shop (or any other place you KNOW she really wants to go) tell her "I'm going to the antique store, want to come?" If she doesn't go, go without her. Her control statement is her not seeing you as the leader and begrudgingly ceding control to you. Turn that perception around and see how quickly she ends those kinds of statements and hangs on you like a teenage schoolgirl.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Randall set and enforced a boundary in the marriage and she is pissed.

Tough break for her. Good job for Randall.

With her attitude about the situation, she will try to test the boundaries again. RS needs to stay vigilant.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If you havent already, read MMSL. You have only won a battle, not the never ending war. Never stop dating and romancing your wife. She deserved some big rewards for doing the right thing now.

Give her no reason to thimk she picked wrong. Make her feel like she won the lottery. She has done a lot of work to improve herself, make sure she has no reason to leave you behind.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

chapparal said:


> If you havent already, read MMSL. You have only won a battle, not the never ending war. Never stop dating and romancing your wife. She deserved some big rewards for doing the right thing now.
> 
> Give her no reason to thimk she picked wrong. Make her feel like she won the lottery. She has done a lot of work to improve herself, make sure she has no reason to leave you behind.


While I'll agree things are looking up and RS needs to up his game, she hasn't actually done anything yet. She's only _said_ she would. I'll start having a bit more faith in her words when I see some of those words turn into actions.

Don't let up on getting her out of this class, RS. I have a hunch she's gonna come back at you (and fairly soon) with an argument to stay in it, regardless of what you want or what she initially said she would do.

This really isn't a hunch either . I've seen it way too many times.

But hey, I would LOVE to be wrong here.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Well you are already right *3putt* - she used a guilt-trip of saying she is in control of _nothing_ because of this _one_ thing he set a boundary on. 

That's what a pouting teenager would do: if you EVER say no they complain that you ALWAYS say no.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

chapparal said:


> If you havent already, read MMSL. You have only won a battle, not the never ending war. Never stop dating and romancing your wife. She deserved some big rewards for doing the right thing now.
> 
> Give her no reason to thimk she picked wrong. Make her feel like she won the lottery. She has done a lot of work to improve herself, make sure she has no reason to leave you behind.


Yes, I would recommend positive reinforcement for doing the right thing. Maybe combine the respect getting ideas I sugggested with a reward for her quitting the class. Take her to a nice restaurant but use the method I described to initiate the night out.

If you would like to read about how to create and pull off the perfect date start here:

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of The Perfect Red Pill Date: Introduction

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase 1 Preselection

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase II Extraction

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase III Power Shopping

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase IV Music

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase V Dinner

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase VI Sex And Stuff

The Red Pill Room: Anatomy of the Perfect Red Pill Date: Phase VIII Coda


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