# Guiding Waywards



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

One of the many complaints by BS's is that waywards just don't seem to "get it" while in an affair, or during R and going through withdrawals of the AP.

I lurk on a board which has WS's and OW/OM's posting on it, and it's really true. Other posters will provide advice, and BS's often provide critical advice (sometimes harsh) in order to be a voice of that wayward's own BS. It surprises me (and doesn't surprise me) how often the WS will say "thanks for opening my eyes" to things we would take as common sense. This includes the selfish actions of the AP, the WS, and the extent of hurt of the BS. Many WS's think that just by "staying" they are doing enough. Clearly, that's never enough, or even close to enough, and will never lead to a true R. They often seem lost, and have no clue how painful it would be if their BS's were reading the very self-absorbed threads they are writing. The "don't judge me" threads if you know what I mean.

I'm writing this for any current BS's lurking on TAM. Through your shock, just remember to spell it all out.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

That's the thing. We always get the "we are not your WS".

But they are someone just like them. And yes, we likely represent what their BS is feeling and how their BS would likely react.

Yes, we also hear the "don't judge me" thing. But when reading the WS's posts, they are judging their BS. And that's what rubs BSs here raw and the responses they bring about. Hence the following:



> They often seem lost, and have no clue how painful it would be if their BS's were reading the very self-absorbed threads they are writing


So perhaps it would behoove BSs to "spell it out" as you would say, that the feelings/anger/emotions they are experiencing in the threads are the very same things their BS are feeling, more than likely depending on the personality of their BS.


----------



## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

I thought the title was 'GUILDING WAYWARDS'...DAM IT


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

vellocet said:


> So perhaps it would behoove BSs to "spell it out" as you would say, that the feelings/anger/emotions they are experiencing in the threads are the very same things their BS are feeling, more than likely depending on the personality of their BS.


They do. And sometimes you have a former WS supporting the BS's comments, saying "listen to them, this is your BS too .. trust me."


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

I created an account just so I comment on this one thread. I know exactly what website you are talking about because I'm one of those BS's that tries to give advice to those Waywards. Everything that you said is right. Unfortunately so many of the Waywards there, especially the women are so caught up in the fog that they really don't get it. To the point their only regret was getting caught. It really does frustrate me to no end. So many people try to give them advice, but it is met with defensiveness and justifications. I will admit that some of their BS's were not holding up their end of the deal in the marriage, but that's no excuse. There is a WW there who's husband was really crappy in the beginning of the marriage, but turned it around. She is cheating on him with her best friend's husband. Her justification is that because her and her friend's husband only have sex 10% of the time, it's okay to continue. Everybody tells her its only a matter of time before she gets caught and blows up both families, but she still continues. I mean how sick is that?


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

"Don't judge me, but I'm robbing banks. I'm not a bad person, but my spouse doesn't give me enough money. I deserve to be able to buy expensive things so I found something which makes me feel whole again. By robbing banks, I feel alive and happier and am a better person to my spouse. But my spouse found out and is mad at me. I said I wouldn't do it again. Why can't they just get over it?"


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

wilson said:


> "Don't judge me, but I'm robbing banks. I'm not a bad person, but my spouse doesn't give me enough money. I deserve to be able to buy expensive things so I found something which makes me feel whole again. By robbing banks, I feel alive and happier and am a better person to my spouse. But my spouse found out and is mad at me. I said I wouldn't do it again. Why can't they just get over it?"


I think it's a phase thay most Waywards go through. They really do need people to understand why they cheating or cheated on their spouses. They don't want people to see them as horrible human being, yet their actions prove otherwise. The sad thing is that a lot of Waywards know what they need to do, but still try to do things their own way.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't understand why a BS would think the cheating spouse doesn't get it. A tort always has three elements; motivation, opportunity, and rationalization. They have rationalized the action long before they do it. You don't believe they simply go to work one day and decide on the spur of the moment they're going to screw a coworker? Do you really think that you, as the BS, you're going to change their thinking and make them say, "Oh, now that you've explained it to me, I see where I was totally wrong"? Get real.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think rare is the case when you can explain anything to a WS. In order for you to explain it, and them receive it, they would have to care. If someone is carrying on months to years of affair and all the lies that go along the caring isn't present.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> In order for you to explain it, and them receive it, they would have to care.


Additionally, and as I keep saying, when your woman has an affair, it generally means she's lost romantic interest in you. Guys keep wanting their WS to "get it". The problem is that most guys don't "get it". If you were important to her in a romantic sense, she wouldn't be in another guys bed. (of course I'll admit there are a very few exceptions) If you could plug into her thoughts when you ask her why she cheated, you'd get back, "you just didn't do it for me any more" rather than some crap about spending too much time away, not paying enough attention and other euphemisms. (albeit some could have caused to lose of romantic interest)


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll speak up as a formerly wayward/disloyal spouse here. 

I think very, very generally that WS/DSs fall into two categories: those who DON'T WANT TO GET IT, and those who really did a bad thing and want to get it but don't. 

Those who "don't want to get it" are those who maybe have a personality disorder (so they are mentally ill and not in touch with reality), those who have personal issues they refuse to address (like past childhood abuse they are stuffing down), those who really want to end the marriage but don't have the courage to do it, or those who are just immoral or evil people. Trying to be as non-judgmental as I can whilst also having some discernment, some people just ARE cruel and managed to hide it for a while to get what they wanted...or ignored a personal issue long enough that eventually it festered and now they still won't address it. For these kinds of Waywards/Disloyals... well where there's life there's hope, and yet in my personal opinion the hope is dim for them to ever admit to themselves what they've done. Can't fix what you won't admit!!

Those who really "did a bad thing and want to get it but don't" are those who have generally been a moral, upstanding, good, honest person all their life and did not have proper protections in place to guard their marriage. The marriage is maybe not bad, but not great either, and along comes the OP. These WS/DSs usually have the character to realize what they're doing is wrong but just keep crossing tiny little lines...and at some point they know it's wrong and have to stop or maybe want to stop, but by then they are afraid. What if they lose their spouse, their kids, the house, everything? What if it all explodes in my face? What if I admit it, and it all goes sour? What if I hide it and it's found out? 

Many, many WS/DS's just are not good people in their innermost heart...or they have issues which they will not face in counseling. And again, I'm saying that with kindness--they are in some deep trouble because somehow, in their head, admitting that they are human and made a mistake equals DEATH!! So what do they do? They do the wrong thing, and rather than admit it and change, the BACK THE WRONG THING and try to say its right and keep doing it. 

The few WS's who really were of good character and then made a gigantically bad choice are the ones who are probably more likely to "hear" a BS tell them what it's like. And yeah, those WS's do need to hear it because they have never been betrayed like that and they don't know. As they hear it and learn what they've done, it hurts like heck! It's like gradually seeing an ever-widening circle of death from a bomb that YOU dropped. It didn't just hit the target, but also killed the surrounding area AND damaged an even bigger area! 

So I hope people will bear this in mind. I do. Some of your WSs I'm positive were the first kind -- those who just can not admit they were wrong even to themselves and would rather continue growing more and more hard-hearted. What we (well I) keep writing on this forum for are those WSs who are of the second kind. There are a few. I'd say maybe 10% and that's being generous but they do exist. And they are the ones I keep trying to advocate for.


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

It seems that the only time many WS "get it" is when their BS tells them "Hasta la vista, baby!". All of a sudden, they react as though their BS are leaving them for someone else.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

I hate to admit it, but I don't know what "don't seems to get it" means. Anybody with any walking around sense would know its not right to cheat on their mate and their would be livid about if/when they find out. (notwithstanding some "open" arrangement) Other than the above, what are they suppose to get? I may on the wrong page.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Really good comments. It is a fight against rationalization because most waywards rationalize or justify what they're doing. 

Most people I know want to think they're good hearted including those who've screwed over their partners. Maybe they are decent on some levels but they can still sh!t on their partners and that's crap character. Enter rationalization.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> I hate to admit it, but I don't know what "don't seems to get it" means. Anybody with any walking around sense would know its not right to cheat on their mate and their would be livid about if/when they find out. (notwithstanding some "open" arrangement) Other than the above, what are they suppose to get? I may on the wrong page.


I don't think it's so much that they "don't get" that cheating is wrong. I suspect most people get that. 

I suspect what WS's "don't get" is the vastness of the damage they've done, how many lives it has hurt, how deep the hurt runs, how much has been ruined, how many emotions their BS is going to feel and kind of all-at-once, the repeating and frustration and bitterness while also still turning to you for comfort (who asks "the enemy" for a hug?), the triggers, what to do to help, how to be open (not just honest) when they've spent so much time being closed off and behind a wall...stuff like that. I'm sure it seems obvious and natural to a BS--like "who wouldn't know that you should reassure me?" but to a WS it feels like "Should I? Shouldn't I?"


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Affaircare, it seems to go to my post on rationalization. Like the trusted employee who embezzles hundreds of thousands of dollar over several years, they've already rationalized the act. As in any tort, that rationalization includes giving themselves permission to do the act. As a fraudster once told me, only after many months of discovery could they see the damage done beyond their own reputation and punishment. Before discovery, the profits made it all good.


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

ThePheonix said:


> Affaircare, it seems to go to my post on rationalization. Like the trusted employee who embezzles hundreds of thousands of dollar over several years, they've already rationalized the act. As in any tort, that rationalization includes giving themselves permission to do the act. As a fraudster once told me, only after many months of discovery could they see the damage done beyond their own reputation and punishment. Before discovery, the profits made it all good.


*The old saying "What he/she doesn't know won't hurt him/her" seems to fit quite nicely here.*


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

First off, Staystrong. "One size does NOT fit all" There are many WS's who "get it" and are willing to learn and accept advice. Regret, EI, Mrs. Mathias, poor little Tears, even Affaircare, and others. Secondly, there is a big difference between "guidance" and browbeating and some posters go over the line. Third and probably most important, some persons are either too selfish or not very bright. Hey....it isn't only intelligent people who cheat, dumb-asses do too.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> I don't understand why a BS would think the cheating spouse doesn't get it. A tort always has three elements; motivation, opportunity, and rationalization. They have rationalized the action long before they do it. You don't believe they simply go to work one day and decide on the spur of the moment they're going to screw a coworker? Do you really think that you, as the BS, you're going to change their thinking and make them say, "Oh, now that you've explained it to me, I see where I was totally wrong"? Get real.


I actually agree with you. Sadly it took me a while to realize this, but you can't rationalize with someone that doesn't want to be rationalized with. I hate turning this into a sexist argument but WW's are the hardest to get through. It takes them months, maybe years for them to except responsibility for their actions. It's never their fault, but their spouses or APs. So many of them try to play the victim card and makes me sick to my stomach when I see it. It also disturbs me how many I encountered that honestly don't regret their affairs, but getting caught. Even the ones that are trying hard to R with their spouses feel this way. Like they deserved to have an affair. I give the same advice to BSs on this site that I do the other: you cannot chase your WSs. Sadly, it isn't until they get divorced papers thrown in their face when they change and do a 180. 

And no I do not believe all WWs are like this. However, the vast majority that I have encountered are. Even the ones that were in solid marriages before their affairs, some of the things they have said about their spouses and marriages during their affairs literally makes my stomach turn. This goes into my second piece of advice: you will more than likely never know the full extent of your WSs feelings towards you during their affair. If you want to R with them, then you are going to have to accept that.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Additionally, and as I keep saying, when your woman has an affair, it generally means she's lost romantic interest in you. Guys keep wanting their WS to "get it". The problem is that most guys don't "get it". If you were important to her in a romantic sense, she wouldn't be in another guys bed. (of course I'll admit there are a very few exceptions) If you could plug into her thoughts when you ask her why she cheated, you'd get back, "you just didn't do it for me any more" rather than some crap about spending too much time away, not paying enough attention and other euphemisms. (albeit some could have caused to lose of romantic interest)


Seems a bit of a cop out. I guess it depends. Did the cheating spouse, sorry I don't see it as gender as you, say to the other spouse that they were falling out of love? Admit thier were problems? I find it a bit hard to believe that a spouse coming to the other saying consistently hey I am falling out of love with you and the other spouse ignoring it happens very often if at all. 

I mean if my x wife had come to me ever expressing an issue we talked about it. If I was a type where I honestly didn't care and she repeatedly came to me and told me how unhappy she was then I doubt I would have cared about her affair as at all cause obviously I didn't care about her then.


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

free524 said:


> I actually agree with you. Sadly it took me a while to realize this, but you can't rationalize with someone that doesn't want to be rationalized with. I hate turning this into a sexist argument but WW's are the hardest to get through. It takes them months, maybe years for them to except responsibility for their actions. It's never their fault, but their spouses or APs. So many of them try to play the victim card and makes me sick to my stomach when I see it. It also disturbs me how many I encountered that honestly don't regret their affairs, but getting caught. Even the ones that are trying hard to R with their spouses feel this way. Like they deserved to have an affair. I give the same advice to BSs on this site that I do the other: you cannot chase your WSs. Sadly, it isn't until they get divorced papers thrown in their face when they change and do a 180.
> 
> And no I do not believe all WWs are like this. However, the vast majority that I have encountered are. Even the ones that were in solid marriages before their affairs, some of the things they have said about their spouses and marriages during their affairs literally makes my stomach turn. This goes into my second piece of advice: you will more than likely never know the full extent of your WSs feelings towards you during their affair. If you want to R with them, then you are going to have to accept that.


Absolutely. Sadly it seems that EI, Affaircare, and other TAM FWW are the exception and not the rule. They posses a level of maturity that doesn't allow them to blame their FBH for their choice to have their affairs. How many WW are capable of that? Not many.

It has been shown time and again, that the BH who pack up, leave and file for divorce, are the ones that seem to successfully break through whatever "fog" their WW were under. It is figuratively the "bucket of cold water reality thrown in the face" that tells the WW, "I'm no longer your backup in case the OM throws you under the bus". It is the "nuclear option" that can either help to start marital recovery or give it its proper burial. But more importantly, the only one that seems proven to help the BH to recover faster from the personal devastation.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

*Wolf, this long response isn't specifically to you, I just used your comment to dovetail into it. If TAMers are truly interested in guiding waywards, then they must first be willing to allow them to share their stories without feeling entitled to shred their character. I don't expect this to be received well, by all, but it's still my story. *



Wolf1974 said:


> Seems a bit of a cop out. I guess it depends. Did the cheating spouse, sorry I don't see it as gender as you, say to the other spouse that they were falling out of love? I did.
> 
> Admit thier were problems? I knew there were problems. I began working on my side of the road before I even approached him about working on his. I went to counseling and told my counselor, "I want to have an affair with my husband." So, I began working on me, first, trying to become a woman that my husband would want to have an affair with. I lost weight, got in better physical shape than I had been in for many years, worked on becoming a more positive partner, identified stresses that had been weighing us down and implemented strategies to reduce or eliminate them from our lives. I even began doing a lot of the simple "little things" that I had allowed to fall by the wayside over the years as our lives had gotten increasingly busier, like packing his lunches, again, complete with healthy, homemade goodies, and writing him encouraging little love notes. I even started ironing his dress clothes for work, something I hadn't done in years. I, also, began to make an earnest effort to look more attractive for him. I starting giving myself manicures, and pedicures, and taking better care of my skin and hair. And, I did it all myself, I didn't spend extra money, because we didn't have extra money to spend. No matter how busy I was, I tried make sure that the house was clean, dinner was ready, and I was presentable, when he walked in the door from work at 5:00 p.m.
> 
> ...


Which is exactly what I thought. I had concluded that B1 didn't love me or care about me, at all. I thought that his primary interest was in maintaining the status quo. I could not have been more wrong. B1 is back on his Testosterone therapy, now, injections this time. He hates needles and it's still expensive, but he never misses a shot. I never have to ask or remind him. 


The presence of WS's is truly not wanted on TAM, not really. Not unless they come in, willing to follow a very specific script, that is designed to absolve the BS from having to bear any responsibility for the current state of destruction that the relationship is in. Insisting that infidelity is "always" a completely separate issue from the problems in the marriage is as foolish as implying that divorce is a completely separate issue from the problems in the marriage. A divorce is a result of a bad marriage. Infidelity might also (though, not always) be a result of a bad marriage. An improper result, but a result, no less. A spouse choosing infidelity as a result of a bad marriage, rather than choosing divorce, or prior to getting a divorce, does not absolve the BS of their contributions to a marriage that failed long before the affair began. If a reconciliation is going to be attempted, this has to be acknowledged and addressed. Yet, for some on TAM, there is no allowance for this kind of honesty. It doesn't fit the acceptable TAM script for WS's. If it is the truth, it isn't blame shifting, it's fact telling. B1 is not responsible for my decision to have an affair. But, after the way he treated me for so long, he was in no position to claim the moral high ground, either. We both lost that. We knew it and we both chose to approach one another with compassion, mercy, and humility. That may not apply to your (as in anyone's) story, but it might very well apply to other's. I just don't think we hear about those on TAM.


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

EI said:


> *Wolf, this long response isn't specifically to you, I just used your comment to dovetail into it. If TAMers are truly interested in guiding waywards, then they must first be willing to allow them to share their stories without feeling entitled to shred their character. I don't expect this to be received well, by all, but it's still my story. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not true. There are those who appreciate the WS on TAM. We realize that you and your story helps us on our way.

The greatest have all failed. Their rise from failure what made them great. Both you and B1 have failed and risen to greatness.

Your give great insight into something some of us could not understand. Too bad so many do not want any help and also prevent others from getting help.

The worse thing anyone on this board can do is not learn anything from this. Hating does not help in the long run.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

If bitter former betrayeds are what keep former waywards from contributing comments on TAM, can't the former waywards avail themselves of the edit ignore list option?


----------



## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

EI, your story has always been an inspiration to me. I had hoped so much to be able to get to a similar place with my own (then) partner. That she would be able to work with me as B1 had with you.

I had typed an earlier response to this thread that I deleted. I had hoped that when I first found TAM that it could be a place where I could find support and assistance in untangling not only the mess I had made, but also the general mess of my relationship pre-A. Alas, TAM is not generally such a place for waywards. 

As EI pointed out, no one wants to (or even can) endure shredding of their character - especially when they're already broken and looking for help.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

free524 said:


> Even the ones that were in solid marriages before their affairs, some of the things they have said about their spouses and marriages during their affairs literally makes my stomach turn.


When you drill down, you'll find the pre-affair marriage was not solid despite the outward appearance. My interpretation is if they were really in solid marriages they wouldn't be saying things about it that made your stomach turn. 
Additionally, women don't come to you and tell you they're losing interest. They tell you by their actions. When you read a thread by a guy who found out his wife is seeing another guy, listen to what he says happened before the discovery.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EI said:


> *Wolf, this long response isn't specifically to you, I just used your comment to dovetail into it. If TAMers are truly interested in guiding waywards, then they must first be willing to allow them to share their stories without feeling entitled to shred their character. I don't expect this to be received well, by all, but it's still my story. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I certainly understand this is your perspective but this not what I experienced. Not even close to it.


I further disagree that WS aren't welcome or wanted. Too often though a WS will cry foul when they say something that is disagreed upon by the BS. Just because we see something differently doesn't mean you're unwanted. Just means we disagree


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> If bitter former betrayeds are what keep former waywards from contributing comments on TAM, can't the former waywards avail themselves of the edit ignore list option?


Yes, of course we could. But, why are any of us even here if not, at least, in an attempt to learn from one another? I don't have a single person on ignore. Never have, oh, I take it back, I had one. It was a troll, I knew it, and I didn't need that kind of aggravation. Not solely for the sake of someone's amusement.

If another's comment causes us pain or discomfort, there is often something valuable to be learned from it. I believe that goes for BS's and WS's. I've learned a great deal from many posts that have hurt me terribly. But, the intentions of those writing them were not to cause me pain or discomfort, but we're instead intended to inform me, guide me, or inspire me. Writing hurtful comments simply for the sake of being hurtful, speaks more about the character of the writer than it does about the character of it's intended target.

Bitterness is toxic, emotional poison. It eats you up inside, destroying marriages, families, and lives; stealing joy and happiness along the way. I don't want to be bitter, I want to be better. I wish that for every single one of us here.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

EI said:


> Bitterness is toxic, emotional poison. It eats you up inside, destroying marriages, families, and lives; stealing joy and happiness along the way. I don't want to be bitter, I want to be better. I wish that for every single one of us here.


:iagree:

I'd like to recommend a movie for you and B1 - not an infidelity film BTW. It's called Revolver (2005). So not your typical Hollywood crap. Check it out.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Dogbert said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I'd like to recommend a movie for you and B1 - not an infidelity film BTW. It's called Revolver (2005). So not your typical Hollywood crap. Check it out.



I'll get it, and we'll watch it. Thank you.


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

I find that the WS do more guiding than need guiding.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> When you drill down, you'll find the pre-affair marriage was not solid despite the outward appearance. My interpretation is if they were really in solid marriages they wouldn't be saying things about it that made your stomach turn.
> Additionally, women don't come to you and tell you they're losing interest. They tell you by their actions. When you read a thread by a guy who found out his wife is seeing another guy, listen to what he says happened before the discovery.


This is where I'm going to have to disagree with you, marriages don't have to be bad in order for someone to cheat. The WWs in question on that site stated multiple times that they did have solid marriages. Their affairs were just something that added to their lives. Unfortunately for one, she got a little more attached to her AP then she wanted to. I need to correct myself, she did not talk bad about her husband. However, when comparing her husband to the OM, the OM won out. She blamed that statement on the fog (surprise surprise). Both women got busted by their husbands. One got divorced and there is a good chance that the other will as well. In their attempt to gain a little extra, they lost everything.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> Yes, of course we could. But, why are any of us even here if not, at least, in an attempt to learn from one another? I don't have a single person on ignore. Never have, oh, I take it back, I had one. It was a troll, I knew it, and I didn't need that kind of aggravation. Not solely for the sake of someone's amusement.
> 
> If another's comment causes us pain or discomfort, there is often something valuable to be learned from it. I believe that goes for BS's and WS's. I've learned a great deal from many posts that have hurt me terribly. But, the intentions of those writing them were not to cause me pain or discomfort, but we're instead intended to inform me, guide me, or inspire me. Writing hurtful comments simply for the sake of being hurtful, speaks more about the character of the writer than it does about the character of it's intended target.
> 
> Bitterness is toxic, emotional poison. It eats you up inside, destroying marriages, families, and lives; stealing joy and happiness along the way. I don't want to be bitter, I want to be better. I wish that for every single one of us here.


The key, of course is to be willing to listen.....respectfully. It's perfectly all right to disagree, as long as it is not accompanied by personal attacks. Bitterness , on the part of a BS, is no excuse for browbeating, any more than unmet needs, on the part of the WS, is an excuse for cheating. We all (including myself) need to exhibit more control over our words, and do a better job of making our point clearly understood, without bad mouthing or patronizing those we disagree with. I am very guilty of having little patience, it is a major fault of mine.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

free524 said:


> This is where I'm going to have to disagree with you, marriages don't have to be bad in order for someone to cheat. The WWs in question on that site stated multiple times that they did have solid marriages. Their affairs were just something that added to their lives. Unfortunately for one, she got a little more attached to her AP then she wanted to. I need to correct myself, she did not talk bad about her husband. However, when comparing her husband to the OM, the OM won out. She blamed that statement on the fog (surprise surprise). Both women got busted by their husbands. One got divorced and there is a good chance that the other will as well. In their attempt to gain a little extra, they lost everything.


A marriage consists of two people, if one of the persons (WS) cheats, but the other person (BS) believes the marriage is solid. Is the marriage solid, after all? I think not. Nobody can convince me that cheating happens in a truly good marriage. There is always a cause, and that cause, whatever it is, is what makes the marriage bad.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> A marriage consists of two people, if one of the persons (WS) cheats, but the other person (BS) believes the marriage is solid. Is the marriage solid, after all? I think not. Nobody can convince me that cheating happens in a truly good marriage. There is always a cause, and that cause, whatever it is, is what makes the marriage bad.


Dude look at my post again. It was the WWs not the BHs that said their marriages were solid. And no, those statements weren't made in hindsight. They were both happy going into their affairs. Again, their affairs added to their lives by offering them something new and exciting. Most importantly, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong because they thought they wouldn't get caught. At the end of the day, sometimes people just need validation from other people, especially validation from people they are attracted to. So yes, people can cheat in good relationships because they lack proper boundaries, have poor self esteem, and/or weren't cut out for monogamy.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

free524 said:


> Dude look at my post again. It was the WWs not the BHs that said their marriages were solid. And no, those statements weren't made in hindsight. They were both happy going into their affairs. Again, their affairs added to their lives by offering them something new and exciting. Most importantly, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong because they thought they wouldn't get caught. At the end of the day, sometimes people just need validation from other people, especially validation from people they are attracted to. So yes, people can cheat in good relationships because they lack proper boundaries, have poor self esteem, and/or weren't cut out for monogamy.


I wouldn't bother, he doesn't want to believe anything other than what he believes. I do agree with you and lived this. My x wife was a very damaged person from her childhood. She wasn't capable of monogamy as was demonstrated by her cheating on every relationship she ever had. I was just the next sucker. What rookie and others sometimes fail to understand is they are applying a logical standard to illogical people. Hell most people, even if it isn't cheating, are capable of strange things.

In the "me first" mentality society where men and women are coming from divorced families where everyone is cheating you wonder how men and women can come together and be faithful at all. Odds stacked against them and even if you are capable of being faithful good like finding someone else who will as well.

People cheat is bad marriages. People cheat in good marriages and that also happens all the time. Obviously strikes a cord as "too scary to think about" for some here but doesn't make the obvious any less true. And yes it is scary to know that you gave your all for a realtionship but it wasn't enough to overcome the partners own demons. After moving forward it causes you great pause to ever think about making a commitment again


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> A marriage consists of two people, if one of the persons (WS) cheats, but the other person (BS) believes the marriage is solid. Is the marriage solid, after all? I think not. Nobody can convince me that cheating happens in a truly good marriage. There is always a cause, and that cause, whatever it is, is what makes the marriage bad.


I think you have a lot of motive to believe that and would not believe it if a wayward was saying it to you in person. The truth though is that we can't control others and we can't know what they're thinking if they don't want us to. Years back I believed a similar false assumption in thinking that I could fix anything. It was a stress free way to think actually because I didn't have to even consider infidelity was possible. When my first marriage ended a couple of decades ago, the falseness of that thinking was clear.

That's likely one reason my marriage now has been solid from day 1 and is going to 18 years. The difference between controlling self versus controlling others is night and day.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

free524 said:


> This is where I'm going to have to disagree with you, marriages don't have to be bad in order for someone to cheat. The WWs in question on that site stated multiple times that they did have solid marriages.


It would be nice at this point to have a couple of WW to say what was going on that made the take that road despite the solid marriage they had. Personally, I think they can purport they have a solid marriage because it has most of the right ingredients, dependable husband, good kids, nice home, reasonable security, etc., but they still can have a low romantic interest in their husband. 
Again, it would be nice to have a comment from the ladies why they would leave the fold. If a woman simply succumbs to a "more exciting" man, we'd all be in trouble. 
But I do understnd what you're saying. Using men as an example, qualities in a woman he chooses for a wife is probably different than the qualities he'd choose if he's simply wanting a bed mate. What would many women do if the had a choice of spending a weekend with Brad Pitt or a weekend with their 50 year old husband, if no one could possibly discover their choice.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

People do stupid things all of the time. Often it's nothing more than opportunity mixed with being naive, arrogant, or entitled.

Think of alcoholics, drug addicts, those addicted to gambling, abusers, those not carrying their weight, compulsive liars, etc. Most of us hold them accountable for their actions. At least we don't flat out accuse the spouse of being the cause. But I'm sure that group would also try to blame their spouse if anyone would listen and believe it.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> It would be nice at this point to have a couple of WW to say what was going on that made the take that road despite the solid marriage they had. Personally, I think they can purport they have a solid marriage because it has most of the right ingredients, dependable husband, good kids, nice home, reasonable security, etc., but they still can have a low romantic interest in their husband.
> Again, it would be nice to have a comment from the ladies why they would leave the fold. If a woman simply succumbs to a "more exciting" man, we'd all be in trouble.
> But I do understnd what you're saying. Using men as an example, qualities in a woman he chooses for a wife is probably different than the qualities he'd choose if he's simply wanting a bed mate. What would many women do if the had a choice of spending a weekend with Brad Pitt or a weekend with their 50 year old husband, if no one could possibly discover their choice.


Sadly it's been reported multiple times that if their was absolutely no way of their spouse figuring it out, the majority of married people said that they would cheat on their spouses. That was the issue these women and cheaters like them. They thought they weren't going to get caught. More so, if they did get caught, they thought their spouses would forgive them. At the end of the day, the downfall of many cheaters is their arrogance.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

free524 said:


> Dude look at my post again. It was the WWs not the BHs that said their marriages were solid. And no, those statements weren't made in hindsight. They were both happy going into their affairs. Again, their affairs added to their lives by offering them something new and exciting. Most importantly, they didn't think they were doing anything wrong because they thought they wouldn't get caught. At the end of the day, sometimes people just need validation from other people, especially validation from people they are attracted to. So yes, people can cheat in good relationships because they lack proper boundaries, have poor self esteem, and/or weren't cut out for monogamy.


OK, improper validation, improper boundaries, poor self esteem, and "weren't cut out for monogamy". Does this sound like a good marriage to anybody? To me, this sounds like a clusterf*ck. Just because people think a marriage is OK, doesn't mean it is. Very few people will admit that their marriage is in the crapper.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I wouldn't bother, he doesn't want to believe anything other than what he believes. I do agree with you and lived this. My x wife was a very damaged person from her childhood. She wasn't capable of monogamy as was demonstrated by her cheating on every relationship she ever had. I was just the next sucker. What rookie and others sometimes fail to understand is they are applying a logical standard to illogical people. Hell most people, even if it isn't cheating, are capable of strange things.
> 
> In the "me first" mentality society where men and women are coming from divorced families where everyone is cheating you wonder how men and women can come together and be faithful at all. Odds stacked against them and even if you are capable of being faithful good like finding someone else who will as well.
> 
> People cheat is bad marriages. People cheat in good marriages and that also happens all the time. Obviously strikes a cord as "too scary to think about" for some here but doesn't make the obvious any less true. And yes it is scary to know that you gave your all for a realtionship but it wasn't enough to overcome the partners own demons. After moving forward it causes you great pause to ever think about making a commitment again


Wolf, you simply cannot seemt to get past your own situation, and refuse to believe that your marriage was bad. I'm sorry about that. If you would ever realize that the marriage was bad, possibly through no fault of yours, you would be better able to accept it. 
Thundarr, Tell you what........, go out and ask how many people believe that a marriage with one of the partners committing adultery, is a good marriage. Cheating is one of the DEFINITIONS of a bad marriage. Abuse is another. Addictions are a third. These are all definitions of bad marriages. Did you ever see a GOOD marriage with any of these things in it?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Remember.....it might have been a good marriage.....in the past. It might be a good marriage....in the future. But it isn't a good marriage.....during the affair.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> What would many women do if the had a choice of spending a weekend with Brad Pitt or a weekend with their 50 year old husband, if no one could possibly discover their choice.


Pitt is 51.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Thundarr, Tell you what........, go out and ask how many people believe that a marriage with one of the partners committing adultery, is a good marriage. Cheating is one of the DEFINITIONS of a bad marriage. Abuse is another. Addictions are a third. These are all definitions of bad marriages. Did you ever see a GOOD marriage with any of these things in it?


The marriage will tank with infidelity or the pursuit of infidelity. Some WS say they were happy in their marriage and don't know why they cheated so. Some WS are completely happy until temptation comes along and they blame shift and justify their desires. In other words the bad marriage before the infidelity is often a history rewrite and rationalization to hold off guilt.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

free524 said:


> Sadly it's been reported multiple times that if their was absolutely no way of their spouse figuring it out, the majority of married people said that they would cheat on their spouses.


The ones who could compartmentalize would go probably go for a few more rounds. Those who couldn't would be paddling up $h!t creek.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> OK, improper validation, improper boundaries, poor self esteem, and "weren't cut out for monogamy". Does this sound like a good marriage to anybody? To me, this sounds like a clusterf*ck. Just because people think a marriage is OK, doesn't mean it is. Very few people will admit that their marriage is in the crapper.


I don't even know why I'm replying because I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise, but I will still take a stab at this. Infedility in marriages result from personal issues, not issues in the marriage. If that was the case, then everybody would be cheating because all marriages have their fair share of issues. I think we all know that monogamy is unnatural. Most people have the capability of being with one person, but some don't. A prime illustration of this is the majority of men that cheat. It has been widely reported that the majority of men that cheat were in deed happy in their marriages. The opportunity to cheat just presented itself. Again, they thought they wouldn't get caught. Because of this, it's been stated that maybe counseling for men that have had one or two events may actually do more harm then good. Your just searching for issues that aren't there. It seems like you really need to believe that people only cheat in bad marriages. So be it, but it's not going to negate the fact that people do cheat in good marriages. Heck, you even have certain sexologist recommend that you do cheat to enhance the marriage.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

Thundarr said:


> The marriage will tank with infidelity or the pursuit of infidelity. Some WS say they were happy in their marriage and don't know why they cheated so. Some WS are completely happy until temptation comes along and they blame shift and justify their desires. In other words the bad marriage before the infidelity is often a history rewrite and rationalization to hold off guilt.


The latter actually happens a lot. The WS actually was happy, but they need to convince themselves otherwise to deflect the guilt of their cheating. Sometimes there is some one that comes along that causes you to get an itch you need to scratch. It's easier to find or create faults in the marriage and spouse then to just admit that "I really just wanted to screw that person's brains out." As a whole, cheaters do not want to believe they are bad people, but good people that made bad decisions. In order to keep this notion they justify and rewrite history. However, you do have the Waywards that will admit that there was nothing the betrayed could have done. They were going to cheat regardless. Rookie, if you want my advice, go on other forums, especially the one ps that have sections for Waywards and OM/OW. I think that will give you a much better perspective that can people can and will cheat in good relationships if the opportunity presents itself.


----------



## Guitarman07 (Jun 21, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> > In order for you to explain it, and them receive it, they would have to care.
> ...



I 100% agree with this. I also know that a narcissistic or BPD person will show traits towards a cheaters mentality early on. Some men are attracted to this trait, kind of like a challenge. Especially if the woman or man is stunningly attractive to them. Whether the eventual BS is aware of these traits early on or not...they're there.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Guitarman07 said:


> Some men are attracted to this trait, kind of like a challenge. Especially if the woman or man is stunningly attractive to them.


Like many young women are attracted to the so-called "bad boy", many men go for the pretty "damsel in distress". Both cases often times ends up biting them in the azz.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> What would many women do if the had a choice of spending a weekend with Brad Pitt or a weekend with their 50 year old husband, if no one could possibly discover their choice


Probably the same percentage of men would be after Mrs. Pitt (AKA Jolie), Jennifer Lawrence, Halle Berry, or whoever the new hot Hollywood thing is.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Infidelity is the turd that forces people to stand up and take notice.


----------



## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Rookie you seem.to confuse the character flaws the individual partners bring to the marriage with ths success of the marriage. A person may have the flaws that lead them to justify an affair or they may have the same flaws and remain faithful. You assume in a good marriage, there are no low points, that every thing is unicorns and rainbows. Of course this is not true; the truly good and strong marriage is one where the low points are worked thru...the flaws of the partner are balanced by the good characteristics they bring to the relationship. This is what "forbearance " means. Compassion, forgiveness and a recognition of our own faults is necsssary to make a healthy marriage.

Of course when a character flaw takes over a person's life to the point where it is seriously impacting the partner in a negative way and affecting the happiness that the marriage should be giving one could say the marriage has turned sour at least for one of the partners. But I really believe a.marriage can cycle thru high and low periods of connection/closeness between the partners and can contain negative personality traits in a partner and still be considered a good marriage.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

free524 said:


> I don't even know why I'm replying because I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise, but I will still take a stab at this. Infedility in marriages result from personal issues, not issues in the marriage. If that was the case, then everybody would be cheating because all marriages have their fair share of issues. I think we all know that monogamy is unnatural. Most people have the capability of being with one person, but some don't. A prime illustration of this is the majority of men that cheat. It has been widely reported that the majority of men that cheat were in deed happy in their marriages. The opportunity to cheat just presented itself. Again, they thought they wouldn't get caught. Because of this, it's been stated that maybe counseling for men that have had one or two events may actually do more harm then good. Your just searching for issues that aren't there. It seems like you really need to believe that people only cheat in bad marriages. So be it, but it's not going to negate the fact that people do cheat in good marriages. Heck, you even have certain sexologist recommend that you do cheat to enhance the marriage.


Cheating and open sexuality are not the same thing.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Rookie you seem.to confuse the character flaws the individual partners bring to the marriage with ths success of the marriage. A person may have the flaws that lead them to justify an affair or they may have the same flaws and remain faithful. You assume in a good marriage, there are no low points, that every thing is unicorns and rainbows. Of course this is not true; the truly good and strong marriage is one where the low points are worked thru...the flaws of the partner are balanced by the good characteristics they bring to the relationship. This is what "forbearance " means. Compassion, forgiveness and a recognition of our own faults is necsssary to make a healthy marriage.
> 
> Of course when a character flaw takes over a person's life to the point where it is seriously impacting the partner in a negative way and affecting the happiness that the marriage should be giving one could say the marriage has turned sour at least for one of the partners. But I really believe a.marriage can cycle thru high and low periods of connection/closeness between the partners and can contain negative personality traits in a partner and still be considered a good marriage.


 This has nothing to do with my point, at all. My point is how some posters seem to believe that cheating is a magical force that can spontaneously appear in any marriage. Bull****! If most BS's were honest with themselves, they would admit that the signs were there, but they didn't see them.
And, also, nobody has dis-proven my statement that a happy, satisfied, well adjusted person will cheat. It just doesn't happen that way. THERE IS ALWAYS A CAUSE. Whatever that might be, and it is this CAUSE which makes the marriage BAD.
It;s amazing, really, how many people believe in this myth. That cheating can have no cause.


----------



## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

This debate is like the old Miller lite beer commercial where one guy argues by shouting "Less filling!" while the other guy shouts back "Taste great!"

The truth is that you are both right.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Rookie you seem.to confuse the character flaws the individual partners bring to the marriage with ths success of the marriage. A person may have the flaws that lead them to justify an affair or they may have the same flaws and remain faithful. You assume in a good marriage, there are no low points, that every thing is unicorns and rainbows.


Rookie is consistent which I kind of respect. That being said, there's some _black white - all or nothing_ thinking I don't understand to Rookie's thoughts on BS/WS. I suppose it's baggage driven like we all have. But I agree with you allwillbewell that one person's (HIDDEN) flaws can sink a marriage that otherwise would have been solid. Also one person's flaws can be hidden from the spouse as well as the person until opportunity knocks. I'm sure there are WSs that become loyal partners later on because they were also disgusted at what they did and change.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Rookie is consistent which I kind of respect. That being said, there's some _black white - all or nothing_ thinking I don't understand to Rookie's thoughts on BS/WS. I suppose it's baggage driven like we all have. But I agree with you allwillbewell that one person's (HIDDEN) flaws can sink a marriage that otherwise would have been solid. Also one person's flaws can be hidden from the spouse as well as the person until opportunity knocks. I'm sure there are WSs that become loyal partners later on because they were also disgusted at what they did and change.


Actually, Thundarr, it's more of a "dead or alive" thing than it is a black or white thing. This issue, of course , is that a marriage might be bad and the BS doesn't even know it. 
Reminds me of a race I was in, once, in West Virginia. The weather was great, my car was running great, I felt great and was in the lead. A bumblebee flew in the side window, hit me on the neck and fell down the front of my jacket. It began to sting me and I couldn't get it off or hit it enough to kill it. I had to pull the car over and kill the damn thing. I lost the lead and had to work like hell to get it back. I eventually won the race. Now ...everything was great, before the bee, everything was great AFTER the bee......., but during ......it really sucked.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, Thundarr, it's more of a "dead or alive" thing than it is a black or white thing. This issue, of course , is that a marriage might be bad and the BS doesn't even know it.
> Reminds me of a race I was in, once, in West Virginia. The weather was great, my car was running great, I felt great and was in the lead. A bumblebee flew in the side window, hit me on the neck and fell down the front of my jacket. It began to sting me and I couldn't get it off or hit it enough to kill it. I had to pull the car over and kill the damn thing. I lost the lead and had to work like hell to get it back. I eventually won the race. Now ...everything was great, before the bee, everything was great AFTER the bee......., but during ......it really sucked.


I think most of us agree that while an affair is active, the marriage is bad place. So if that's the main point that you're making then we agree. But here's what your comments read like regarding BS/WS on some threads: It reads as if you are suspicious and do not believe that any BS was actually blind sided by infidelity. It reads as if you think any BS who didn't see it coming in advance was just very naive. It reads like you think most BS's who say they were a good spouse are lying to us and to themselves. At first I thought it read condescending but thinking about it, I think it's a coping mechanism that keep you feeling safe that if you do everything right then no infidelity can happen.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you simply cannot seemt to get past your own situation, and refuse to believe that your marriage was bad. I'm sorry about that. If you would ever realize that the marriage was bad, possibly through no fault of yours, you would be better able to accept it.
> Thundarr, Tell you what........, go out and ask how many people believe that a marriage with one of the partners committing adultery, is a good marriage. Cheating is one of the DEFINITIONS of a bad marriage. Abuse is another. Addictions are a third. These are all definitions of bad marriages. Did you ever see a GOOD marriage with any of these things in it?


Because it wasn't bad. X wife said same thing. She was just to damaged to fulfill her end of the bargain. Just cause you can't believe it doesn't make that any less true. 

And thanks but I accepted it long ago. I knew she was damaged and married her anyway. Partially cause I believed her and the rest because I was naive. I wouldn't be either anymore but least I am willing to accept things outside my perspective. And you?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> This has nothing to do with my point, at all. My point is how some posters seem to believe that cheating is a magical force that can spontaneously appear in any marriage. Bull****! If most BS's were honest with themselves, they would admit that the signs were there, but they didn't see them.
> And, also, nobody has dis-proven my statement that a happy, satisfied, well adjusted person will cheat. It just doesn't happen that way. THERE IS ALWAYS A CAUSE. Whatever that might be, and it is this CAUSE which makes the marriage BAD.
> It;s amazing, really, how many people believe in this myth. That cheating can have no cause.


Right many believe that cause they lived it and you don't "believe" them so they must all be wrong and you of course you must be Right.


----------



## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

EI said:


> *Wolf, this long response isn't specifically to you, I just used your comment to dovetail into it. If TAMers are truly interested in guiding waywards, then they must first be willing to allow them to share their stories without feeling entitled to shred their character. I don't expect this to be received well, by all, but it's still my story. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so very much for sharing this EI...This touches me on many levels regarding your experiences both in your relationship and here on TAM.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I think most of us agree that while an affair is active, the marriage is bad place. So if that's the main point that you're making then we agree. But here's what your comments read like regarding BS/WS on some threads: It reads as if you are suspicious and do not believe that any BS was actually blind sided by infidelity. It reads as if you think any BS who didn't see it coming in advance was just very naive. It reads like you think most BS's who say they were a good spouse are lying to us and to themselves. At first I thought it read condescending but thinking about it, I think it's a coping mechanism that keep you feeling safe that if you do everything right then no infidelity can happen.


Not at all. I do believe that a lot of BS's were blindsided, but maintain that in most (if not all) cases, the red flags were there to see, if the BS was looking. I also maintain that it seems that a LOT of BS's simply do not communicate with or know what their spouses are doing or thinking. If I had paid as much attention to my marriage, as I did my career, my wife would probably not have had an affair, at all, and I wouldn't be on TAM. As I pointed out in another thread, once I suspected the affair, it took me about an hour and a half to get to the bottom of it. Yes, I was blindsided, but I soon was up to the mark.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Because it wasn't bad. X wife said same thing. She was just to damaged to fulfill her end of the bargain. Just cause you can't believe it doesn't make that any less true.
> 
> And thanks but I accepted it long ago. I knew she was damaged and married her anyway. Partially cause I believed her and the rest because I was naive. I wouldn't be either anymore but least I am willing to accept things outside my perspective. And you?


I am willing to accept anything but fiction. Anybody who says that cheating happens in good marriages is talking fiction and self delusion.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Right many believe that cause they lived it and you don't "believe" them so they must all be wrong and you of course you must be Right.


So, let me get this straight. You believe that cheating is spontaneous, and can happen in a wonderful marriage, with no cause whatsoever? Why? Because your cheater wife told you so. What is wrong with this picture? Sorry, Wolf, you are perfectly free to believe as you will, but I think I will go with my own instincts, instead of taking the word of somebody who has already proven their dishonesty.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

You see, Wolf, I'm an old Corporate Guy. I rarely believe ANYTHING without factual evidence. Whenever anybody says things to me, like "trust me on this" or "you got to have faith" or "believe me", I always make sure I'm wearing my steel drawers, because 99.9% of the time, they are trying to f**K me. You, and everybody else, are free adults, and can believe what you want to.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You see, Wolf, I'm an old Corporate Guy. I rarely believe ANYTHING without factual evidence. Whenever anybody says things to me, like "trust me on this" or "you got to have faith" or "believe me", I always make sure I'm wearing my steel drawers, because 99.9% of the time, they are trying to f**K me. You, and everybody else, are free adults, and *can believe what you want to*.


As are you rookie and I never said otherwise. I fully believe bad marriages can lead toward affairs( but not cause them) and then the adverse is true as well. You don't want to believe it then that's on you I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. You want to not listen to others perspective with an open mind again that's totaly on you. some people feel more secure in thier little world and anything that challenges that is scary....I get that. 

I think I get why the whole notion scares some people. Cause if you realize that you can do the right things as a husband or a wife and give your best to a marriage only to have it fall apart with an affair that's a terrifying notion. It's one of the things that keeps me hesitant from ever getting married again and I would certainly never do so without a lot of protection, which is possible with your stuff just not your heart.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> So, let me get this straight. You believe that cheating is spontaneous, and can happen in a wonderful marriage, with no cause whatsoever? Why? Because your cheater wife told you so. What is wrong with this picture? Sorry, Wolf, you are perfectly free to believe as you will, but I think I will go with my own instincts, instead of taking the word of somebody who has already proven their dishonesty.


Cheating is not always spontaneous no. I would say it can be paved into that way about 50% of the time. The rest yes when you count in things like the random one night stands and "catching up with friends" hookup which these boards are full of, cheatervill is full of and so on.


----------



## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Some waywards will say that they weren't unhappy in their marriage, but someone came along and made them feel even more happy. So what do you say about that? They bumped into someone who seemed better at the time, and did not resist the temptation. 

It follows from the 80/20 rule mentioned in another thread. A WS could be 80% happy, but missing 20%. 

Also, this word .. "unhappy" .. You have to dissect it. When people use the word, they give the impression that they were suffering from sort of malaise. Oftentimes this could not be further from the truth. Maybe they just got too close to someone and followed that tingly feeling. Can't you accept that maybe that's the truth as well?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Gonna disagree with any poster that says cheating is because of the state of the marriage. Divorce, yes, fvcking another person behind your family's back, NOT! 

Cheating is always a selfish, evil and deceptive betrayal. A divorce is in the open with both spouses knowing. The vileness of infidelity takes place without the other partners knowledge or consent.

Someone has to have low character or allow themselves to sink very low (thus achieving low character) to betray with infidelity.

Murdering and stealing because your children are starving to death is still murder and theft and inexcusable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> As EI pointed out, no one wants to (or even can) endure shredding of their character - especially when they're already broken and looking for help.


You know, I agree with this, I really do.

I think the problem BSs have is that it seems, and in a lot of cases is, the WS shreds the character of their BS and blames them for their decision to cheat.

One wants to share their story, fine. One wants help, fine. But one shouldn't complain about their character being "shredded" when that's exactly what they are doing to their BS.

This seems to apply to most WSs on this board, not all of them. There are some that have shared their story and have gotten good advice, even from the harshest of us, because they didn't make excuses. Others do.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

staystrong said:


> Some waywards will say that they weren't unhappy in their marriage, but someone came along and made them feel even more happy. So what do you say about that? They bumped into someone who seemed better at the time, and did not resist the temptation.
> 
> It follows from the 80/20 rule mentioned in another thread. A WS could be 80% happy, but missing 20%.
> 
> Also, this word .. "unhappy" .. You have to dissect it. When people use the word, they give the impression that they were suffering from sort of malaise. Oftentimes this could not be further from the truth. Maybe they just got too close to someone and followed that tingly feeling. Can't you accept that maybe that's the truth as well?


A casual flirtation, yes...I could accept that maybe a person gets a certain vibe, and flirts. But full sex? No, I don't accept that a person gets "tingly" and decides to cheat. IDK about yours , but it took a LOT of thought and preparation for my wife to have her affair. The same goes for ONS's, even then, the decision to cheat was made beforehand. I do not, for a second, believe in the myth of a spontaneous affair.
You and Wolf are telling me that a happy, well-adjusted, sexually satisfied person will wake up one morning ( with no forethought)and say "I think I'll f*ck the milkman, today, he makes me "tingly"? This is a fantasy.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> EI, your story has always been an inspiration to me. I had hoped so much to be able to get to a similar place with my own (then) partner. That she would be able to work with me as B1 had with you.
> 
> I had typed an earlier response to this thread that I deleted. I had hoped that when I first found TAM that it could be a place where I could find support and assistance in untangling not only the mess I had made, but also the general mess of my relationship pre-A. Alas, TAM is not generally such a place for waywards.
> 
> As EI pointed out, no one wants to (or even can) endure shredding of their character - especially when they're already broken and looking for help.


The problem is , SP, that there is a certain number of BS's here on TAM, who believe that because a WS is a cheater, that they have no rights at all, that any BS is bound to respect. I would ask you to re-read some of the cowardly things said to EI, Tears, and Regret, as examples. A WS is a human being, not a verbal punching bag.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> As EI pointed out, no one wants to (or even can) endure shredding of their character - especially when they're already broken and looking for help.


I would point out that an unfaithful person has already shredded their character. The truth of what someone has become when they cheat is vile. It is ugly to look at but it needs acknowledged fully before making corrections and working on becoming a better, healthier individual.

You have to know what you are if you want to change.

I don't promote useless bashing but ruthless truth.

As far as EI and B1, their situation was extreme and I do agree that being allowed to express full truth, on her part, would be helpful. She was remorseless for her infidelity, that certainly spells doom for the vast majority of marriages.

In most cases, kicking a remorseless WS to the curb IS excellent advice. In their case, more information was called for.

Cheating is still 100% on the cheater however anyone wants to paint it. It always involves lying and betrayal and is absolutely outside the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So, let me get this straight. You believe that cheating is spontaneous, and can happen in a wonderful marriage, with no cause whatsoever? Why?


Because some people, even though they love their married life, just have a hard time giving up having sex with strange people, or forsaking all others for the rest of their lives.

But I suppose it could be said that since that person isn't fit for married life that the marriage can't be that wonderful, and that is on the person that can't handle the monogamy.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

The thing is, an affair is conducted in secret (usually), the definition of deception.

The person deciding to cheat can give their spouse all indications that things are fine. A faithful spouse in love is not really looking for signs of infidelity. So for all intents and purposes, many BS think the marriage is good.

Why? Because they have been led to that actual spot, of believing their WS's covering story.

Some WS are superb at deceit, justifying their actions, and compartmentalizing.

When I finally outed my ex-wife to my extended family, she was furious with me because as she stated, "I am a good person, now everyone will think badly of me."

When I replied that I don't know how you can see yourself as a good person when you cheated for decade and covered it up for even longer.

She said that "that" didn't count. that I 'ruined" her reputation to punish her.

It has taken her almost three more years since we split up to even admit that what she did was wrong, not just for seeing me upset, or for her loss of reputation, but intrinsically, what she did to herself.

The selfishness that led her to cheat was incredible.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Totally agree michzz.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> A casual flirtation, yes...I could accept that maybe a person gets a certain vibe, and flirts. But full sex? No, I don't accept that a person gets "tingly" and decides to cheat. IDK about yours , but it took a LOT of thought and preparation for my wife to have her affair. The same goes for ONS's, even then, the decision to cheat was made beforehand. I do not, for a second, believe in the myth of a spontaneous affair.
> You and Wolf are telling me that a happy, well-adjusted, sexually satisfied person will wake up one morning ( with no forethought)and say "I think I'll f*ck the milkman, today, he makes me "tingly"? This is a fantasy.


I'm going to take one more stab at this. Stay Strong was definitely on point with that post. You are right in the sense that no, cheating does not just happen. This is my opinion, but I would say that the most common affair partner is a coworker, especially for women. Both women that I mentioned earlier cheated with coworkers. They saw their APs almost everyday for years. The attraction was always there, but it never effected their marriages. In fact, both never considered cheating until their APs made the first move. Their APs offered them the 20% that was not necessarily seen in their marriages, excitement. It honestly reminds me of the movie unfaithful. Diane Lane and Richard Geere did have a good marriage. Her AP came along and offered her something more. Her affair was a way to add excitement in her life. I think we can all agree that marriage is very routine. Your not usually screwing in bathrooms and texting your spouse sexual things nonstop. When someone comes along to give you a break from that routine, it hard to resist for some. Again, the women listed above vehemently stated that they did not have issues in their marriages. In fact they loved their husbands to death. But for the time in their lives, they had all of their needs met. 

I hope you don't take offense to this because I'm not trying to upset, but I have read some of your earlier threads. I don't know the exact story, but it really does seem like deep down you do blame yourself for your wife's affair. Because of that, you think that others should take responsibility for problems in their marriages as well. For most, yes, this is the case. For others, I'm sorry, but no it's not. Again, I have seen numerous posts by cheaters that have said there was nothing their spouse could have done to prevent the cheating. An opportunity presented itself and they took it because they did not think about the consequences. Most importantly, they thought they wouldn't get caught.


----------



## free524 (Jan 9, 2015)

michzz said:


> The thing is, an affair is conducted in secret (usually), the definition of deception.
> 
> The person deciding to cheat can give their spouse all indications that things are fine. A faithful spouse in love is not really looking for signs of infidelity. So for all intents and purposes, many BS think the marriage is good.
> 
> ...


This goes back to the reason this thread was started. Again, not to turn this sexists, but I have found that women really do have a problem taking responsibility for their cheating. Most importantly, they don't want to see themselves or have others see them as bad individulas. This is why I have found that most women blame shift and rewrite history in order to not see themselves as bad people even though their actions prove otherwise. It is very rare for me to see a woman take full responsibility for her cheating. It usually takes them months, maybe years for this to happen. And yet it's constantly asked, why don't men take back cheating women. Little do they know that the majority of married men do in fact choose to R. They leave through this proces because either the wife still can't accept responsibility and/or it is too painful for the husbands to have to watch their wives detox from the OM.


----------



## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Seems a bit of a cop out. I guess it depends. Did the cheating spouse, sorry I don't see it as gender as you, say to the other spouse that they were falling out of love? Admit thier were problems? I find it a bit hard to believe that a spouse coming to the other saying consistently hey I am falling out of love with you and the other spouse ignoring it happens very often if at all.
> 
> I mean if my x wife had come to me ever expressing an issue we talked about it. If I was a type where I honestly didn't care and she repeatedly came to me and told me how unhappy she was then I doubt I would have cared about her affair as at all cause obviously I didn't care about her then.



I read this post a few hours ago and came to my laptop specifically to respond and hopefully gain insight from your opinions. 

I am a FWW. Before I cheated, I came to my husband several times over the course of two and a half years saying something was wrong. Asking him to go to counseling. Trying to be better for him and impress him. He continuously rejected me, belittled me for being an emotional "Little B*tch", and told me he didn't have time for my feelings. A week before I cheated- the phrase that resonated in my mind was him telling me, "It's not my problem- you fix it." 

Just after that I did "fix it", in my mind. At the time I did justify sleeping with another man by telling myself that my husband practically told me to go do it. I was obviously being naive and selfish and didn't even think about the vows of marriage or any of the destruction that comes with cheating. At the time I was just happy to be fed crumbs of affection by some douche bag that wanted to sleep with a married woman. 

I look back at myself then and am disgusted. I should have just left when he said "You fix it", that's how I could have fixed that problem. I should have took our daughter, stayed at a family member's house for a week, and showed him how seriously the problems in our marriage were affecting me. Instead, I am now groveling at his feet for forgiveness because I AM NOW THE ONE IN THE WRONG. I became the abuser, not just the verbally abused. Before I cheated I might have had an upper hand in the situation and things might have changed, and now I'm the bad guy. I still love my husband despite the things I did to him, and I think he might still love me, so I'm working on me and trying to help him heal. 

I guess the point of me saying this is that some WS do actually come to their BS before the affair and point out the problems. And sometimes the BS just doesn't care.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> A casual flirtation, yes...I could accept that maybe a person gets a certain vibe, and flirts. But full sex? No, I don't accept that a person gets "tingly" and decides to cheat. IDK about yours , but it took a LOT of thought and preparation for my wife to have her affair. The same goes for ONS's, even then, the decision to cheat was made beforehand. I do not, for a second, believe in the myth of a spontaneous affair.
> You and Wolf are telling me that a happy, well-adjusted, sexually satisfied person will wake up one morning ( with no forethought)and say "I think I'll f*ck the milkman, today, he makes me "tingly"? This is a fantasy.


Keep telling yourself that. And that wasn't what I came up with that's what happened and enforced by my x wifes account of how she cheated.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> I read this post a few hours ago and came to my laptop specifically to respond and hopefully gain insight from your opinions.
> 
> I am a FWW. Before I cheated, I came to my husband several times over the course of two and a half years saying something was wrong. Asking him to go to counseling. Trying to be better for him and impress him. He continuously rejected me, belittled me for being an emotional "Little B*tch", and told me he didn't have time for my feelings. A week before I cheated- the phrase that resonated in my mind was him telling me, "It's not my problem- you fix it."
> 
> ...


and I never indicated that some do this. I have said repeatedly that many a WS has a bad marriage and then cheats. But this is not true in all cases and was never true in mine. We were happy and in love, plenty of sex and all that. What wasn't right was her damaged emotions from the betrayl of her father, In her mind, and the example set forth by her mother which is marriage and men are interchangeable and you should put yourself first.

She shoved off cheating perhaps many years but finally had a temptation she chose to no longer resist. She could have done a million things but the only thing she says she regrets was not coming to me first and telling me what was going on.

To see it like a parallel of an abuser. Often times if you go back you see they were abused themselves. That doesn't excuse what they did but you do gain understanding why it came from.

For what it's worth sorry you went through what you did in your marriage. Not all men are like that and not all manners of cheating are the same. And your right becuase of the infidelity you will have a hard time reconciling in my opinion. He did bad but now so have you in another way. They will likely have to be fixed seperate and you will have to own your part completly aside from him owning his part for the bad marriage


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> I'll speak up as a formerly wayward/disloyal spouse here.
> 
> I think very, very generally that WS/DSs fall into two categories: those who DON'T WANT TO GET IT, and those who really did a bad thing and want to get it but don't.
> 
> ...


Now see, here is a WS that has my respect.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> I hate to admit it, but I don't know what "don't seems to get it" means. Anybody with any walking around sense would know its not right to cheat on their mate and their would be livid about if/when they find out. (notwithstanding some "open" arrangement) *Other than the above, what are they suppose to get?*


The part about don't blame their character on their BS. Don't blame their decision to cheat on their BS. That part.


----------



## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> and I never indicated that some do this. I have said repeatedly that many a WS has a bad marriage and then cheats. But this is not true in all cases and was never true in mine. We were happy and in love, plenty of sex and all that. What wasn't right was her damaged emotions from the betrayl of her father, In her mind, and the example set forth by her mother which is marriage and men are interchangeable and you should put yourself first.
> 
> She shoved off cheating perhaps many years but finally had a temptation she chose to no longer resist. She could have done a million things but the only thing she says she regrets was not coming to me first and telling me what was going on.
> 
> ...


I must have misunderstood what you meant in the first post I responded to. Everyone has different experiences, and I am terribly sorry yours arose out of a seemingly healthy marriage. 

My husband actually recently said something similar to what you said, but only once. He said that looking back he could see the factors that led to my cheating, and felt bad about that, but he did not want to let that excuse what I did. I think that's totally fair.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> I guess the point of me saying this is that some WS do actually come to their BS before the affair and point out the problems. And sometimes the BS just doesn't care.


Or it could be that the other doesn't "get" it or understand the gravity of a situation. It is like the love languages and if we can't get our needs and desires filled correctly by our spouse because they don't share the same priorities, does it makes theirs any less valid than ours and make them the ones in the wrong because of this?? 

If you see something as a problem, yet your spouse doesn't see it as one, you both have a different viewpoint and this doesn't mean that yours ideals are always the right. It seems pretty callous and biased to say someone that might not understand your viewpoint "just doesn't care". It might be what you are thinking, but it is drawing a conclusion based solely from your viewpoint without taking theirs into account. That is the problem when we aren't able to communicate our situation or problem in such a way as to make the other person understand clearly, it doesn't always mean that they "don't care" and that is the reason they react the way they do. When we are hurt and someone doesn't take concern we automatically interpret their reaction as lack of concern or care, but in reality it may just be that they don't think it is a problem. We always say we "told" them what was wrong, but did we really tell them and get the point and urgency across or did we think that what they heard is exactly what we said.

As an example, if you are someone that is LD or afflicted with something that lowers the drive and desire and your spouse complains to you about they don't think the sex is good, are we hearing that they are unhappy with the sex in general or are we hearing that since we are satisfied and our desires are being met then they are just being overly critical because maybe their friends have said something? If you can't communicate the problem in such and make sure it is understood, doesn't mean that the other person doesn't care. We all seem to think we are communicating fully with our spouse when we in actuality are not speaking from the same viewpoint. 

I don't think you BH would be happy to think that in your mind it wasn't that he didn't understand the level of the problem but instead he just "didn't care" about your problems. Many BS when asked would say they didn't know the gravity of the situation, or were never told it was a bad situation especially since they were in the same marriage and didn't see it, however the WS would claim they said it time again yet the BS just didn't care. It is a common issue and can show the two must not have effectively communicating (instead of saying that one is right and the other wrong).


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

rrhouse said:


> I must have misunderstood what you meant in the first post I responded to. Everyone has different experiences, and I am terribly sorry yours arose out of a seemingly healthy marriage.
> 
> My husband actually recently said something similar to what you said, but only once. He said that looking back he could see the factors that led to my cheating, and felt bad about that, but he did not want to let that excuse what I did. I think that's totally fair.


No worries about the misunderstanding happens to everyone 

Yeah I wish my x could have come to me and communicated. I don't think in the long run it would have forever stopped her from cheating. But at least I would have been more in the know that it was going to happen so I could prepare. I never saw it coming and yeah I should have with her history but I went by what she said and did. Was a lesson learned for sure


----------



## rrhouse (Jun 10, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Or it could be that the other doesn't "get" it or understand the gravity of a situation. It is like the love languages and if we can't get our needs and desires filled correctly by our spouse because they don't share the same priorities, does it makes theirs any less valid than ours and make them the ones in the wrong because of this??
> 
> If you see something as a problem, yet your spouse doesn't see it as one, you both have a different viewpoint and this doesn't mean that yours ideals are always the right. It seems pretty callous and biased to say someone that might not understand your viewpoint "just doesn't care". It might be what you are thinking, but it is drawing a conclusion based solely from your viewpoint without taking theirs into account. That is the problem when we aren't able to communicate our situation or problem in such a way as to make the other person understand clearly, it doesn't always mean that they "don't care" and that is the reason they react the way they do. When we are hurt and someone doesn't take concern we automatically interpret their reaction as lack of concern or care, but in reality it may just be that they don't think it is a problem. We always say we "told" them what was wrong, but did we really tell them and get the point and urgency across or did we think that what they heard is exactly what we said.
> 
> ...


This is definitely something to reflect on. In my particular situation, we both had issues that one saw as a problem and the other did not. We went into marriage without discussing our expectations for major issues, which many people fall into these days. People meet, very quickly fall in love, have a baby, build a life around it. 

I did come to him with some information about the different love languages and briefly tried to show him love in ways I thought he would receive it, hoping he'd do the same for me. 
I'll admit I was very impatient and when I didn't see the situation improving I immediately said WE have a problem and we need counseling. I could have worked on myself more before jumping ship, and I regret that. 

In hindsight, I believe we both should have discussed our expectations and priorities for marriage before actually getting married. I'd recommend pre-marriage counseling to anyone looking for advice, because communication is much more complex than we perceive it to be. Thank you for sharing your opinion, I learned something new today. 

PS 
I do have to defend myself a little in saying that he just didn't care. Married couples are supposed to be on the same team, share encouragement, and emotionally be present for one another. I continuously pointed out that we were not working together, and he called me a little b*tch. He told me that he didn't have time to deal with feelings, and often made fun of his married friends for being overly emotional little p*ssies for bonding with their wives. Marriage is not just a financial agreement, but a bond. He didn't care about the bond.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Because some people, even though they love their married life, just have a hard time giving up having sex with strange people, or forsaking all others for the rest of their lives.
> 
> But I suppose it could be said that since that person isn't fit for married life that the marriage can't be that wonderful, and that is on the person that can't handle the monogamy.


I fully agree with this. There are some people who cannot handle married life, for whatever reasons. MOST of those people, divorce, some of them cheat. I'm not assigning blame, I'm simply stating facts. If there is cheating in a marriage, then it is not a good marriage. I truly don't see what is so hard about that. It would seem obvious.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

michzz said:


> The thing is, an affair is conducted in secret (usually), the definition of deception.
> 
> The person deciding to cheat can give their spouse all indications that things are fine. A faithful spouse in love is not really looking for signs of infidelity. So for all intents and purposes, many BS think the marriage is good.
> 
> ...


Many cheaters are totally selfish....I agree.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

free524 said:


> I'm going to take one more stab at this. Stay Strong was definitely on point with that post. You are right in the sense that no, cheating does not just happen. This is my opinion, but I would say that the most common affair partner is a coworker, especially for women. Both women that I mentioned earlier cheated with coworkers. They saw their APs almost everyday for years. The attraction was always there, but it never effected their marriages. In fact, both never considered cheating until their APs made the first move. Their APs offered them the 20% that was not necessarily seen in their marriages, excitement. It honestly reminds me of the movie unfaithful. Diane Lane and Richard Geere did have a good marriage. Her AP came along and offered her something more. Her affair was a way to add excitement in her life. I think we can all agree that marriage is very routine. Your not usually screwing in bathrooms and texting your spouse sexual things nonstop. When someone comes along to give you a break from that routine, it hard to resist for some. Again, the women listed above vehemently stated that they did not have issues in their marriages. In fact they loved their husbands to death. But for the time in their lives, they had all of their needs met.
> 
> I hope you don't take offense to this because I'm not trying to upset, but I have read some of your earlier threads. I don't know the exact story, but it really does seem like deep down you do blame yourself for your wife's affair. Because of that, you think that others should take responsibility for problems in their marriages as well. For most, yes, this is the case. For others, I'm sorry, but no it's not. Again, I have seen numerous posts by cheaters that have said there was nothing their spouse could have done to prevent the cheating. An opportunity presented itself and they took it because they did not think about the consequences. Most importantly, they thought they wouldn't get caught.


You are wrong. I do NOT take responsibility for my wife's affair. I DO take partial responsibility for the sad state of our marriage, prior to the affair.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

free524 said:


> This goes back to the reason this thread was started. Again, not to turn this sexists, but I have found that women really do have a problem taking responsibility for their cheating. Most importantly, they don't want to see themselves or have others see them as bad individulas. This is why I have found that most women blame shift and rewrite history in order to not see themselves as bad people even though their actions prove otherwise. It is very rare for me to see a woman take full responsibility for her cheating. It usually takes them months, maybe years for this to happen. And yet it's constantly asked, why don't men take back cheating women. Little do they know that the majority of married men do in fact choose to R. They leave through this proces because either the wife still can't accept responsibility and/or it is too painful for the husbands to have to watch their wives detox from the OM.


This post is possibly offensive, and I would advise that the poster should delete it or re-phrase it.. Women are no more or less deceptive than men. Cheating is not, and never has been, a gender issue.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Keep telling yourself that. And that wasn't what I came up with that's what happened and enforced by my x wifes account of how she cheated.


You can believe your ex wife, as you choose. I would not.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

rrhouse said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Or it could be that the other doesn't "get" it or understand the gravity of a situation. It is like the love languages and if we can't get our needs and desires filled correctly by our spouse because they don't share the same priorities, does it makes theirs any less valid than ours and make them the ones in the wrong because of this??
> ...


I can totally agree with this and know first hand but truthfulness is the key. My STBXW and I did attend pre-marriage counseling as it was required to be married in our church and it might have meant something and mattered had she really wanted to participate. Years later when I found out some truths I was finally told by her that she was afraid to admit certain things she should have and really didn't take it seriously and thus we started our union on lies and half truths she had told and was with holding. Not the way to start in a marriage. 

It is good that you tried the love languages but like I have said in other threads, they work best when you each read the book (or in that very least do the worksheets) and exchange your individual lists and languages with each other. If you approach it by trying to act to the others love language without knowing it, it can sometimes cause more harm than good as the expectations that all are being received correctly can result in bad feelings when it means nothing to the spouse yet lots of effort has been put forth. It is easier to let them find out their love languages and then present them to you (as you both might be surprised on what you each thought was important to yourself and the other yet might not have been the case. I knew I thought mine and hers were both different than what they actually were). To put forth effort to not have it realized is not only unproductive it is actually counter productive and came be demoralizing.

I can't say he did or didn't care and you would know him best, I hope. Keep one thing in mind, that he could be eacting in such ways as he didn't know how to deal with such situations and therefore used insults and belittling as a defense mechanism. Many guys raised to be "men" were taught to not show emotions or weakness and now view certain things as such weaknesses. The way they learned to deal with those situations is to insult them, ignore them, or joke about them to create an image of machismo and strength to help them deal/ cope. I know this first hand as it is how I have handled things. I still do I imagine but try to change that thinking when I realize I am doing it (which sometimes is hard and takes another male friend to call me on it and make me realize I have done it). I am working on this daily. I am not trying to make an excuse for him but trying to show you that what you see as lack of caring may in fact be an internal coping mechanism because one cares too much or is scared and is conflicted internally and does the wrong thing dealing with it. He could use help with this issue either way. If this is the case he needs to learn to deal with it more productively, and if he honestly doesn't care then he needs to start learning to care as it means something to you. Your assessment of the situation may not always be correct as you may not know what is truly going on and at play behind the scenes and he will never really tell you as that shows weakness.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You can believe your ex wife, as you choose. I would not.


Course you wouldn't. I'm not close minded though and needed to get to the reason it happend. Confronting her was part of my therapy and it did help for me to gain some closure on it.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I fully agree with this. There are some people who cannot handle married life, for whatever reasons. MOST of those people, divorce, some of them cheat. I'm not assigning blame, I'm simply stating facts. If there is cheating in a marriage, then it is not a good marriage. I truly don't see what is so hard about that. It would seem obvious.


Because up until the cheating the marriage can be good. Obviously while an affair is happening it can't be but up until that point it's possiblE


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

What we have hear is a failure to communicate. Here's some common ground
- Cheating is wrong.
- Usually there were problems before the temptation that lead to infidelity but sometimes there was not.
- Almost always there were signs before infidelity. Both the WS and the BS rationalize to avoid seeing it as possible though.
- We are all people. BSs and WSs are just labels.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> What we have hear is a failure to communicate. Here's some common ground
> - Cheating is wrong.
> - Usually there were problems before the temptation that lead to infidelity but sometimes there was not.
> - Almost always there were signs before infidelity. Both the WS and the BS rationalize to avoid seeing it as possible though.
> - We are all people. BSs and WSs are just labels.


Except for the second one, I can get behind this.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> *All* cheaters are totally selfish....I agree.


Fixed it for ya.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Fixed it for ya.


Nope, I had it right the first time.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not sure why I worry about being bashed on here for my opinion anymore. Why would anyone bother to bash me as a FWW when BS's can just bash each other?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> 2. Usually there were problems before the temptation that lead to infidelity but sometimes there was not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Rookie4 said:


> Many cheaters are totally selfish....I agree.
> 
> 
> vellocet said:
> ...


Rookie, do you not see the hypocrisy in your positions? You're willing to make room for exception in regards to the character of someone who has cheated. Hey I agree with you on that. On the other hand, you're not willing to make room for any exception in regards to the state of a marriage before infidelity. Clearly before means not during by the way. That makes no sense at all because it's overwhelmingly logical that on occasion a good marriage can deteriorate only after temptation is introduced.

Honestly I think you're holding onto that notion specifically so you can call Wolf and other BSs liars. It's not like anyone is trying to say people cheat in good marriages often. We've only said it happens occasionally.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> I'm not sure why I worry about being bashed on here for my opinion anymore. Why would anyone bother to bash me as a FWW when BS's can just bash each other?


Why would anybody bash someone as cuddly as you?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Rookie, do you not see the hypocrisy in your positions? You're willing to make room for exception in regards to the character of someone who has cheated. Hey I agree with you on that. On the other hand, you're not willing to make room for any exception in regards to the state of a marriage before infidelity. Clearly before means not during by the way. That makes no sense at all because it's overwhelmingly logical that on occasion a good marriage can deteriorate only after temptation is introduced.
> 
> Honestly I think you're holding onto that notion specifically so you can call Wolf and other BSs liars. It's not like anyone is trying to say people cheat in good marriages often. We've only said it happens occasionally.


Because, Thundarr. I and everybody else, live in this universe. What is it about the law of cause and effect, that people do not understand? Nothing......repeat.....Nothing....happens spontaneously. EVERYTHING .....has a cause. It is impossible for it to be any other way. The idea that Wolf's wife or any other cheater did so without reason, is impossible. Now, it might not be a good reason, it might not be even a conscious reason, but it exists.
How many, many , many times do we see BS's coming to TAM and saying that their marriage was good, their marriage was perfect, etc......until their spouse cheated. And then, say that there was no reason for it.
Tell me how ANYBODY can heal from infidelity, WS and BS alike, if everybody is an innocent victim, and nobody is responsible? I have said it many times, how can people know so little about their spouses actions and feelings? My main feeling about my own wife's affair, was how stupid I felt for not being aware of the trouble.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, I'm not calling Wolf or anybody else a liar, and have never done so. WE ALL have felt the same way and we ALL have been clueless.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Because, Thundarr. I and everybody else, live in this universe. What is it about the law of cause and effect, that people do not understand? Nothing......repeat.....Nothing....happens spontaneously. EVERYTHING .....has a cause. It is impossible for it to be any other way. The idea that Wolf's wife or any other cheater did so without reason, is impossible. Now, it might not be a good reason, it might not be even a conscious reason, but it exists.
> How many, many , many times do we see BS's coming to TAM and saying that their marriage was good, their marriage was perfect, etc......until their spouse cheated. And then, say that there was no reason for it.
> Tell me how ANYBODY can heal from infidelity, WS and BS alike, if everybody is an innocent victim, and nobody is responsible? I have said it many times, how can people know so little about their spouses actions and feelings? My main feeling about my own wife's affair, was how stupid I felt for not being aware of the trouble.


It's not the argument that doesn't make sense. It's the postured stance that there can be no exception. I completely agree that it's almost always just like you say and it certainly was in my case. But it's not logical to believe a happy person is completely immune to temptation and biology. Remember the argument you disagree with is about "before the temptation". Not after and not during.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Rookie, do you not see the hypocrisy in your positions? You're willing to make room for exception in regards to the character of someone who has cheated. Hey I agree with you on that. On the other hand, you're not willing to make room for any exception in regards to the state of a marriage before infidelity. Clearly before means not during by the way. That makes no sense at all because it's overwhelmingly logical that on occasion a good marriage can deteriorate only after temptation is introduced.
> *
> Honestly I think you're holding onto that notion specifically so you can call Wolf and other BSs liars. It's not like anyone is trying to say people cheat in good marriages often. We've only said it happens occasionally.[/QUOTE*]
> 
> ...


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> It's not the argument that doesn't make sense. It's the postured stance that there can be no exception. I completely agree that it's almost always just like you say and it certainly was in my case. But it's not logical to believe a happy person is completely immune to temptation and biology. Remember the argument you disagree with is about "before the temptation". Not after and not during.


So, what caused the temptation? See, you can always find the cause, if you look hard enough, and, of course, want to. But there is no excuse, whatsoever, for being a f**king moron. like I was. I think that is what bothered me the most. There I was, a bigshot, and this happened. It took me a year to get over being pissed.


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

free524 said:


> They don't want people to see them as horrible human being, yet their actions prove otherwise.





vellocet said:


> And yes, we likely represent what their BS is feeling...


I'm going to chime in on just this isolated point, and I made this point to my own counselor about what it's like to read this forum as a WS. The fact is, there is a constant undertone (often an explicit overtone) of, a WS is a horrible human being. People who work hard at their jobs, hard at parenting, hard at their familial relationships and yes, even hard at their marriage, are deemed "horrible human beings" for failing at one aspect. That, in an of itself, is not the problem. Many WS come here either trying to decide if they can/should R, or are maybe deep into the effort, and what they get is, "you're a horrible human being...and your spouse thinks so, too."

It is EASY to believe all the "usual" things about affairs: someone just thought the grass is greener, just a selfish SOB who wanted to get off, they just enjoyed "pulling one over" on their spouse, or whatever, and to be sure, there are times it is true. There are others where it's not. Let me be clear: I do not think a WS should get SYMpathy, not de facto, but I believe EVERY person's situation deserves EMpathy. That is simply a desire to be open-minded and see someone else's perspective. That doesn't happen here, IMO, and there is an implicit message that a BS - or anyone judging a WS "on behalf/by proxy" of a BS - cannot be called out. If they want to call you a slimeball, scumbag, POS, whatever, you just take it.

There are WS who come here in crisis, and chicken/egg regarding the affair, but they come here hurting and looking for help. They don't get it. They get the equivalent of, as Henry Hill put in Goodfellas, "**** you, pay me." "Oh, you were depressed? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse stopped being affectionate? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse deprioritized you beneath the children/their job? Too bad, you're a POS." There is no justification, there is no "oh, well, then it's perfectly ok," an affair is a bad move, period...but to purport that it's simply a matter of "bad character" is demeaning, condascending, and egotistical.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

changedbeliefs said:


> I'm going to chime in on just this isolated point, and I made this point to my own counselor about what it's like to read this forum as a WS. The fact is, there is a constant undertone (often an explicit overtone) of, a WS is a horrible human being. People who work hard at their jobs, hard at parenting, hard at their familial relationships and yes, even hard at their marriage, are deemed "horrible human beings" for failing at one aspect. That, in an of itself, is not the problem. Many WS come here either trying to decide if they can/should R, or are maybe deep into the effort, and what they get is, "you're a horrible human being...and your spouse thinks so, too."
> 
> It is EASY to believe all the "usual" things about affairs: someone just thought the grass is greener, just a selfish SOB who wanted to get off, they just enjoyed "pulling one over" on their spouse, or whatever, and to be sure, there are times it is true. There are others where it's not. Let me be clear: I do not think a WS should get SYMpathy, not de facto, but I believe EVERY person's situation deserves EMpathy. That is simply a desire to be open-minded and see someone else's perspective. That doesn't happen here, IMO, and there is an implicit message that a BS - or anyone judging a WS "on behalf/by proxy" of a BS - cannot be called out. If they want to call you a slimeball, scumbag, POS, whatever, you just take it.
> 
> There are WS who come here in crisis, and chicken/egg regarding the affair, but they come here hurting and looking for help. They don't get it. They get the equivalent of, as Henry Hill put in Goodfellas, "**** you, pay me." "Oh, you were depressed? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse stopped being affectionate? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse deprioritized you beneath the children/their job? Too bad, you're a POS." There is no justification, there is no "oh, well, then it's perfectly ok," an affair is a bad move, period...but to purport that it's simply a matter of "bad character" is demeaning, condascending, and egotistical.


Well said.


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> It's not the argument that doesn't make sense. It's the postured stance that there can be no exception. I completely agree that it's almost always just like you say and it certainly was in my case. But it's not logical to believe a *happy person* is completely immune to temptation and biology. Remember the argument you disagree with is about "before the temptation". Not after and not during.


A truly happy person, consciously or subconsciously, knows that his/her happines comes from inside him/herself not from outside. Believing that another person can bring us happiness is not only not true, but sets us up for a huge fall. 

This is one marker of an emotionally healthy spouse and something that is absent from many unfaithful spouses way of thinking.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> I'm going to chime in on just this isolated point, and I made this point to my own counselor about what it's like to read this forum as a WS. The fact is, there is a constant undertone (often an explicit overtone) of, a WS is a horrible human being. People who work hard at their jobs, hard at parenting, hard at their familial relationships and yes, even hard at their marriage, are deemed "horrible human beings" for failing at one aspect. That, in an of itself, is not the problem. Many WS come here either trying to decide if they can/should R, or are maybe deep into the effort, and what they get is, "you're a horrible human being...and your spouse thinks so, too."
> 
> It is EASY to believe all the "usual" things about affairs: someone just thought the grass is greener, just a selfish SOB who wanted to get off, they just enjoyed "pulling one over" on their spouse, or whatever, and to be sure, there are times it is true. There are others where it's not. Let me be clear: I do not think a WS should get SYMpathy, not de facto, but I believe EVERY person's situation deserves EMpathy. That is simply a desire to be open-minded and see someone else's perspective. That doesn't happen here, IMO, and there is an implicit message that a BS - or anyone judging a WS "on behalf/by proxy" of a BS - cannot be called out. If they want to call you a slimeball, scumbag, POS, whatever, you just take it.
> 
> There are WS who come here in crisis, and chicken/egg regarding the affair, but they come here hurting and looking for help. They don't get it. They get the equivalent of, as Henry Hill put in Goodfellas, "**** you, pay me." "Oh, you were depressed? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse stopped being affectionate? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse deprioritized you beneath the children/their job? Too bad, you're a POS." There is no justification, there is no "oh, well, then it's perfectly ok," an affair is a bad move, period...but to purport that it's simply a matter of "bad character" is demeaning, condascending, and egotistical.


To some extent I agre with you however for as long as I have been reading here on TAM, which was well longer than I started posting I have heard over and over again how WS cant get a fair shake and cant share share thier experience or get help. I read the threads saying this but where are the threads of the WS owning the affiar andd asking for help and getting ridiculed at that point. I read here almost daily and I don't see that anywhere or When it does happen is like a one and done poster and not someone who has been here for awhile

I see WS who I respect who own what they did and share thier story for others to benefit

I read BS stories who share thier story for others to benefit.

I hear BS talking about thier experience

I hear WS talking about their experience

I often see a WS coming here justifying thier behavior and not holidng themselves accountable at all. And its to be expected they would get called out on that anyway. 

But where are all these threads and examples of a WS owning thier affair and getting mimialized or put down? I just dont see that i only hear it talked about. 

What i do think happens and stated so earlier in the thread is sometimes the WS will share something and the BS will comment and somehow that comment is taken as a direct dig on that post. I know for my part I have always been understanding of others perspective but if I disagree I have a right to say so. Not to hurt or demonize the other person but to lend my experience on something. if we are all trying to learn that sort of give and take is what s required


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

chaos said:


> A truly happy person, consciously or subconsciously, knows that his/her happines comes from inside him/herself not from outside. Believing that another person can bring us happiness is not only not true, but sets us up for a huge fall.
> 
> This is one marker of an emotionally healthy spouse and something that is absent from many unfaithful spouses way of thinking.


To be fair, I think this applies to both WSs and BSs. It just manifests in different ways.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Let's also be fair, that yes, there are some BS's who demonize the WS's who post here, but there are also a number who don't. We have a lot of good people here, on both sides of the fence.:smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

changedbeliefs said:


> Many WS come here either trying to decide if they can/should R, or are maybe deep into the effort, and what they get is, "you're a horrible human being...and your spouse thinks so, too."


The above was in response to me saying "And yes, we likely represent what their BS is feeling..."

First off is the word "likely". And by "feeling" I am talking about the BS's state of mind once they find out they have been cheated on. 

Nowhere did I say anything close to what you said above.

WS's BS ARE likely feeling the very same things that we all felt after we found out we were cheated on. That was the point. Not what you made it to be above.


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

changedbeliefs said:


> I'm going to chime in on just this isolated point, and I made this point to my own counselor about what it's like to read this forum as a WS. The fact is, there is a constant undertone (often an explicit overtone) of, a WS is a horrible human being. People who work hard at their jobs, hard at parenting, hard at their familial relationships and yes, even hard at their marriage, are deemed "horrible human beings" for failing at one aspect. That, in an of itself, is not the problem. Many WS come here either trying to decide if they can/should R, or are maybe deep into the effort, and what they get is, "you're a horrible human being...and your spouse thinks so, too."
> 
> It is EASY to believe all the "usual" things about affairs: someone just thought the grass is greener, just a selfish SOB who wanted to get off, they just enjoyed "pulling one over" on their spouse, or whatever, and to be sure, there are times it is true. There are others where it's not. Let me be clear: I do not think a WS should get SYMpathy, not de facto, but I believe EVERY person's situation deserves EMpathy. That is simply a desire to be open-minded and see someone else's perspective. That doesn't happen here, IMO, and there is an implicit message that a BS - or anyone judging a WS "on behalf/by proxy" of a BS - cannot be called out. If they want to call you a slimeball, scumbag, POS, whatever, you just take it.
> 
> There are WS who come here in crisis, and chicken/egg regarding the affair, but they come here hurting and looking for help. They don't get it. They get the equivalent of, as Henry Hill put in Goodfellas, "**** you, pay me." "Oh, you were depressed? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse stopped being affectionate? Too bad, you're a POS. Your spouse deprioritized you beneath the children/their job? Too bad, you're a POS." There is no justification, there is no "oh, well, then it's perfectly ok," an affair is a bad move, period...but to purport that it's simply a matter of* "bad character"* is demeaning, condascending, and egotistical.


Maybe "bad character" isn't what it should be called, but what then? "Selfish character"? "Poor boundaries"? There are lots of people who are around temptation and don't cheat. Ask me how I know.


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> To be fair, I think this applies to both WSs and BSs. It just manifests in different ways.


Of course and perhaps what many times passes out as "advice from bitter BSs" to let go and move on, is *also* a hidden variation of this message.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Maybe "bad character" isn't what it should be called, but what then? "Selfish character"? "Poor boundaries"? There are lots of people who are around temptation and don't cheat. Ask me how I know.


Well no matter how you look to it we agree a character flaw is present. in dealing with a WS they either lied, decieved, broke vows, justified , manipulated to have an ongoing affair. Certainly some kind of character flaw is present the label shouldn't matter that much. The other end of the spectrum are WS who just don't care. Put themselves first and don't care about hurting others. The great question in theme with the thread is can they be guided
.? Can someone who was capable of doing all those things be shown the error of that and it never happen again? on the end take a selfish cheater and now make them care and put thier spouse above themselves?

I don't really have an answer for that. Was to much a gamble that the answer was no for me to reconcile. But clearly what I learned here is some people have been able to make this works so I guess some can learn a better way


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Because, Thundarr. I and everybody else, live in this universe. What is it about the law of cause and effect, that people do not understand?


We understand the laws of cause and effect just fine. Just not your version of it.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, I'm not calling Wolf or anybody else a liar, and have never done so. WE ALL have felt the same way and we ALL have been clueless.


My bad. I should change that to "you're calling him clueless and stupid". I'm not sure if that's better or not.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

chaos said:


> A truly happy person, consciously or subconsciously, knows that his/her happines comes from inside him/herself not from outside. Believing that another person can bring us happiness is not only not true, but sets us up for a huge fall.
> 
> This is one marker of an emotionally healthy spouse and something that is absent from many unfaithful spouses way of thinking.


If I can just add to what you said, chaos, even as a former WS, I know that you're 100% correct. Happiness does come from within. If you are not happy, then no one and nothing can make you happy. But, (I know you all hate the word "but," but it is in the dictionary and it does have a purpose) that saying is a lot like the saying "Money can't buy you happiness." While that is also 100% correct, there should be a comma after the word "happiness," followed by "but not having _enough_ money to make ends meet sure can buy you a lot of hardships, anxiety, and sleepless nights, all of which has a tremendous impact on one's overall happiness and general well-being. So, back to the saying "Happiness comes from within." Yes, it does. But, no matter how happy one is, we are all affected, either positively or negatively, by the relationships and circumstances in our lives. A happy person who has unexpectedly lost their job will be unhappy, at least for a time. A happy person whose child has been diagnosed with a chronic or terminal illness will not be happy no matter how many others tell them that their happiness comes from within. A happy person who has just discovered that their spouse has been unfaithful will not be happy.

Our happiness and well being is greatly affected by those whom we are the closest to. Why would anyone ever get married if they didn't, at least, have an expectation that their spouse will have more of a positive effect on their lives vs. a negative effect. Notice, I said "more of," because, obviously, no one can please everyone, all of the time.

I was very unhappy, for a long time. Just over ten years ago, I fell into a deep depression after the unexpected death of my 49 year old brother, followed by my 79 year old father only 16 days later. Both sudden, and both unexpected. My father lived with us, and collapsed at our dinner table exactly one week after my brother's funeral. I would eventually be diagnosed with clinical depression that was resistant to all standard forms of treatment. It lasted nearly 3 years. No one and nothing could have made me happy. Not that anyone was trying. B1 was already struggling with his own mental and physical health issues, at the time. He just did not have it in him. One day, I finally got tired of living that way. The pain of living (or existing) in that state had become greater than the burden of doing something about it. I got up and I changed my life. But, it didn't happen overnight. Later, when I was stronger, I reached out to B1. I hoped that he would eventually be able to lead our family. I wanted him to lead the effort that would ultimately lift us up and out of the oppression that had been weighing us down for so long. But, he couldn't. He wasn't ready or able. So, I literally said to him, "Then, take my hand, and I'll lead us out of this, and later, when you're stronger, I'll kick your ass for not being there for our family when we needed you the most, but we will survive." That's when he told me that he was defeated, and that "_We_ should just accept our lot in life." I was trying to pull "us" up and out, and he was trying to pull me down with him. I said "No." I have never blamed him for his health issues. But, I did resent him for his refusal to get help with them. And, I grew even more resentful that, even as I tried to help him, he was refusing my help. It almost felt like he wanted me to lay down and die with him. But, our children needed parents, so that wasn't an option. That's where the long and winding road that eventually brought us to TAM began.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Many cheaters are totally selfish....I agree.





Rookie4 said:


> *All* cheaters are totally selfish....I agree.





vellocet said:


> Fixed it for ya.





Rookie4 said:


> Nope, I had it right the first time.


I will agree that _*All cheating*, in itself, *is always* a *selfish* act._

But, stating that *"All cheaters are totally selfish"* would be almost as offensive and incorrect as saying "All BS's are arrogant and narcissistic, and have an overly inflated sense of superiority over all WS's," when clearly, that only applies to a very small fraction of the BS's on TAM.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I will agree that _*All cheating*, in itself, *is always* a *selfish* act._
> 
> But, stating that *"All cheaters are totally selfish"* would be almost as offensive and incorrect as saying "All BS's are arrogant and narcissistic, and have an overly inflated sense of superiority over all WS's," when clearly, that only applies to a very small fraction of the BS's on TAM.


I stand by what I said. But let me clarify.

I believe MOST cheaters are totally selfish in general.

I believe ALL cheaters are totally selfish, but not in general, but certainly while they were engaging in an affair...basically because of what you said, that cheating is a selfish act and the people cheating ARE totally selfish while they are still cheating.

So in a nutshell: All cheating is a selfish act and ALL cheaters are totally selfish......while actively cheating.


Make sense?


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well no matter how you look to it we agree a character flaw is present. in dealing with a WS they either lied, decieved, broke vows, justified , manipulated to have an ongoing affair. Certainly some kind of character flaw is present the label shouldn't matter that much. The other end of the spectrum are WS who just don't care. Put themselves first and don't care about hurting others. The great question in theme with the thread is can they be guided
> .? Can someone who was capable of doing all those things be shown the error of that and it never happen again? on the end take a selfish cheater and now make them care and put thier spouse above themselves?
> 
> I don't really have an answer for that. Was to much a gamble that the answer was no for me to reconcile. But clearly what I learned here is some people have been able to make this works so I guess some can learn a better way


Character flaw. That's what I was trying to say. Does it mean they have "bad character" overall? Well maybe not, but that's a reason WSs don't get a whole lot of sympathy from BSs. There are lots of us that have the strong moral fiber to keep it in our pants even in the face of temptation. Sometimes it's a simple as "hmmm, this temptation probably isn't good for me to be around. Perhaps I'll remove myself from this general area". WSs, put yourself in our shoes too.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

EI said:


> If I can just add to what you said, chaos, even as a former WS, I know that you're 100% correct. Happiness does come from within. If you are not happy, then no one and nothing can make you happy. But, (I know you all hate the word "but," but it is in the dictionary and it does have a purpose) that saying is a lot like the saying "Money can't buy you happiness." While that is also 100% correct, there should be a comma after the word "happiness," followed by "but not having _enough_ money to make ends meet sure can buy you a lot of hardships, anxiety, and sleepless nights, all of which has a tremendous impact on one's overall happiness and general well-being. So, back to the saying "Happiness comes from within." Yes, it does. But, no matter how happy one is, we are all affected, either positively or negatively, by the relationships and circumstances in our lives. A happy person who has unexpectedly lost their job will be unhappy, at least for a time. A happy person whose child has been diagnosed with a chronic or terminal illness will not be happy no matter how many others tell them that their happiness comes from within. A happy person who has just discovered that their spouse has been unfaithful will not be happy.


I'm going to stick my nose into this and say that I think that there are two kinds of happiness. One is a general overall feeling. For me that's happiness. The other is my current mood. Losing my job would definitely make me moody. Spending an afternoon having wild crazy sex would certainly make my mood effervescent. 



> Our happiness and well being is greatly affected by those whom we are the closest to. Why would anyone ever get married if they didn't, at least, have an expectation that their spouse will have more of a positive effect on their lives vs. a negative effect. Notice, I said "more of," because, obviously, no one can please everyone, all of the time.


I can still remember the mood I was in during the weeks following my marriage. I'd never lived with a woman before (you don't want to know how many years ago this was...  ) I was so happy that my general happiness skyrocketed.



> I was very unhappy, for a long time. Just over ten years ago, I fell into a deep depression after the unexpected death of my 49 year old brother, followed by my 79 year old father only 16 days later. Both sudden, and both unexpected. My father lived with us, and collapsed at our dinner table exactly one week after my brother's funeral. I would eventually be diagnosed with clinical depression that was resistant to all standard forms of treatment. It lasted nearly 3 years. No one and nothing could have made me happy. Not that anyone was trying. B1 was already struggling with his own mental and physical health issues, at the time. He just did not have it in him. One day, I finally got tired of living that way. The pain of living (or existing) in that state had become greater than the burden of doing something about it. I got up and I changed my life. But, it didn't happen overnight. Later, when I was stronger, I reached out to B1. I hoped that he would eventually be able to lead our family. I wanted him to lead the effort that would ultimately lift us up and out of the oppression that had been weighing us down for so long. But, he couldn't. He wasn't ready or able. So, I literally said to him, "Then, take my hand, and I'll lead us out of this, and later, when you're stronger, I'll kick your ass for not being there for our family when we needed you the most, but we will survive." That's when he told me that he was defeated, and that "_We_ should just accept our lot in life." I was trying to pull "us" up and out, and he was trying to pull me down with him. I said "No." I have never blamed him for his health issues. But, I did resent him for his refusal to get help with them. And, I grew even more resentful that, even as I tried to help him, he was refusing my help. It almost felt like he wanted me to lay down and die with him. But, our children needed parents, so that wasn't an option. That's where the long and winding road that eventually brought us to TAM began.


Depression runs in my family. My mother suffered from it awfully during the last 20 years of her life. Her mood might sometimes be sunny, but the dark clouds still came out.

It is hard to be self-analytic, but I think that I'm generally happy, but it doesn't take much to turn my mood to sadness. It can get so bad that I can cry at basketball games -- and I'm not just talking about our two New York teams who could make anyone cry.

The dangerous thing about depression is that the depressed person can come to enjoy it. Not to the point of becoming happy, but to the point of accepting it as a natural way of life. The problem with it is that you are then robbed of any willpower to do anything about the depression.

My old college roommate, the psychiatrist tells me that I'm not really depressed. My daughter the PhD psychologist tells me that my case is mild. I think that it has robbed me of initiative in many ways. Luckily I've been able to arrange my working life so that my inner feelings didn't matter too much.

Only once were we (my wife and I) in the position of having to look for things to sell to raise money. She had to push me enormously to get me to take action. To her credit, it worked. We survived and that situation never came around again.

But EI's example is important. Things can take the most innately happy person and make their mood dark and dangerous. I think many marriages are affected by this, especially when one spouse expects the other to fill a role that they are not filling. It may, in fact, explain why the later one marries, the less chance there is of divorce, because both marriage partners know a lot more about life and its downsides.


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

When trying to explain to a WS how infidelity feels to to a BS, I substitute the term rape. But it's not just any form of rape. The rape occurs while I am blinded by lies and deception. It is a violation of my soul in that it destroys my most cherished parts: love, trust, vulnerability. For me,

I had a PA = I raped my BS

I think if the WS can accept that their BS feels raped, then a conversation can begin if desired.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> I stand by what I said. But let me clarify.
> 
> I believe MOST cheaters are totally selfish in general.
> 
> ...


No.

I believe that most married persons who gamble to excess are totally selfish in general. 

I believe that ALL gamblers are totally selfish, but not in general but certainly while they are gambling...basically because of what EI said, that gambling is a selfish act that the people who are gambling are totally selfish while they are gambling.

So in a nutshell: All gambling is a selfish act and ALL gamblers are totally selfish...while actively gambling.

Make sense?

If so, cheating isn't unique, is it?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> When trying to explain to a WS how infidelity feels to to a BS, I substitute the term rape. But it's not just any form of rape. The rape occurs while I am blinded by lies and deception. It is a violation of my soul in that it destroys my most cherished parts: love, trust, vulnerability. For me,
> 
> I had a PA = I raped my BS
> 
> ...


I disagree, not that I think you are wrong. I think that the problem also comes from our religious expectations that marriage is sacred, cheating is horrid, unexpected, and never forgiven.

I think we might react very differently if we knew at the time of first marriage what we know about marriage at 40. If I'm right, the divorce rates ought to drop as the age at marriage increases.

Guess what?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Character flaw. That's what I was trying to say. Does it mean they have "bad character" overall? Well maybe not, but that's a reason WSs don't get a whole lot of sympathy from BSs. There are lots of us that have the strong moral fiber to keep it in our pants even in the face of temptation. Sometimes it's a simple as "hmmm, this temptation probably isn't good for me to be around. Perhaps I'll remove myself from this general area". WSs, put yourself in our shoes too.


Well thats an interesting question, does having a character flaw that enables you to cheat make you completely a bad person? I would say it depends on the person as a whole.

My X as an example. She was a horrible wife at the end and a rotten mother. 

prior to her affair she was a wonderful friend. The best i ever had. She also was a good employee. Not because she slept with her suprvisors but because she actually did work really hard and to the detriment of our marriage but for the employer they would say she was a great worker. So she had/has good and bad traits. For purposes of being a mother or wife i would tell anyone to run hard and fast from her. But I guess I couldn't give a bad job reference


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> No.
> 
> I believe that most married persons who gamble to excess are totally selfish in general.
> 
> ...


First off, gambling isn't cheating and I can gamble here and there and with a SO. Its entertainment that doesn't hurt anyone unless I have an addiction and it drains my bank account and affects someone else.


If ALL cheating is a selfish act, as EI says and I agree, then you are saying that the person committing this selfish act is not selfish at the time they are doing it? How does that work?

Your comparison doesn't work and we are talking about cheating here. However yes, that syllogism can be applied to other things, hence not making cheating unique. If you want to say that cheating isn't unique to selfishness, I agree. But again, we are talking about cheating here.


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I disagree, not that I think you are wrong. I think that the problem also comes from our religious expectations that marriage is sacred, cheating is horrid, unexpected, and never forgiven.
> 
> I think we might react very differently if we knew at the time of first marriage what we know about marriage at 40. If I'm right, the divorce rates ought to drop as the age at marriage increases.
> 
> Guess what?


Absent the religious context, I have higher expectations for a committed relationship that include honesty and integrity. Perhaps I expect too much?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Jung_admirer said:


> Absent the religious context, I have higher expectations for a committed relationship that include honesty and integrity. Perhaps I expect too much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


or he expects far too little is more likely the case. when you make vows to one another and commitments to one another that should mean something. And not just in the terms of being faithful. But you dont take vows and make commitments just to turn around a beat the hell out of your wife or threaten her and so forth. 

But defintely vows and commitment still stand for something in the minds of most people. The follow through is a little more difficult for some to achieve


----------



## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

EI, the resentment is a natural response when our spouses acknowledge that their is an issue but refuse to address it and resolve it. I know because I was also in a sexless marriage for 5 years and my ex-wife acted pretty much like B1. I came pretty close to having an affair plenty of times but thankfully something always pulled be back from the brink. Nevertheless, my resentment level had killed what little love I had for my ex and it made my decision to divorce less painful.

Now as far as outside forces influencing our ability to be happy, I have to say that you are right but the proper perspective can help balance things out. Taking your example of losing ones job it can be argued that it shouldn't stop you from still being grateful for the other blessings in your life such as your health and your loved ones. Yes the stress is great but should that stop you from hugging and kissing your dear ones? What if your fated to die in the next few days or months? Should the stress of losing your job prevent you from savoring the time you have left with the people you care the most in this world? The reality is that all of us are going to die, but unlike the men on death row, we don't know the date of our execution.

EI I'm sure that there are many WS out there with the type of clinical depression you had and BS like B1 that had detached to such a degree that it seems hopeless to continue being married. You and B1's is a story of Herculean sheer will and perseverance that it is truly inspirational and worthy of admiration by many. Unfortunately there are few who can endure what you and B1 endured, and for that reason it is often best to divorce.

Most people who get married have no idea what they are getting themselves into. They are lured by the promise of having all their emotional desires (I have an issue with the word "needs" ) fulfilled and when they find out that this isn't the case, they start becoming resentful towards each other. The sad part is that by this time, children are already in the picture which complicates things when the desire to end the marriage is desired like water to a man dying of thirst. Though most probably didn't voice it, they saw their newlywed spouse as their source of happiness, which brought about their great disillusionment.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> First off, gambling isn't cheating and I can gamble here and there and with a SO. Its entertainment that doesn't hurt anyone unless I have an addiction and it drains my bank account and affects someone else.
> 
> 
> If ALL cheating is a selfish act, as EI says and I agree, then you are saying that the person committing this selfish act is not selfish at the time they are doing it? How does that work?
> ...


I know a gambler who cheated his wife out of a fortune by draining her bank account.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> First off, gambling isn't cheating and I can gamble here and there and with a SO. Its entertainment that doesn't hurt anyone unless I have an addiction and it drains my bank account and affects someone else.
> 
> 
> If ALL cheating is a selfish act, as EI says and I agree, then you are saying that the person committing this selfish act is not selfish at the time they are doing it? How does that work?
> ...


My comparison does work. I'm speaking of spouses who gamble with too much family money. Note that I said *gambles to excess.* This ruins marriages, causes divorce and much unhappiness. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about buying a two dollar lottery ticket once a month.

Cheating isn't good. Some of it is even justifiable. It is also almost always selfish, but not absolutely always. It isn't even uniquely damaging to marriage. Every single case is different.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Absent the religious context, I have higher expectations for a committed relationship that include honesty and integrity. Perhaps I expect too much?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These days you may be expecting too much. Indeed history tells us that cheating has ALWAYS been a problem. And women have borne the disproportionate share of the blame. King David was a cheater and did some pretty horrible things. But he was an "alpha" male (boy, do I hate that term) so God not only forgave him, but rewarded him.

Don't misunderstand. I am all in favor of committed relationships that include honesty and integrity. I'm just not shocked to discover relationships in which that doesn't happen.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I stand by what I said. But let me clarify.
> 
> I believe MOST cheaters are totally selfish in general.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you just said, with the exception of the word "totally." I cannot argue that my cheating was not 100% totally selfish. Cheating, no matter what the circumstances are, no matter what the reasons are, is *always, completely, and totally selfish.* I don't know how many times and how many ways I can acknowledge that I understand and accept that. Because, I do. I did it. I chose it. Cheating was for me, about me, and was for the "benefit" of no one, except me. What I did was wrong and it was selfish. I still grieve, every day, because I was not a stronger person back then. 

I wish that I could have found another way to cope with my loneliness, my neediness, my resentment, my anger, and the whole other myriad of miseries that had completely encompassed our lives. Even if B1 and I had not reconciled, I know me, and I know that, today, I would still be looking back on that time with tremendous sadness, regret, and disappointment in myself. While my A was still going on, I was in my therapist's office, almost weekly, trying to reconcile my actions with my values, and I was coming up short every time. I would tell my therapist that I didn't really want to kill myself, I just didn't want to be alive anymore. I spent a lot of hours thinking about dying, wishing that I could just go to sleep and not wake up. But, I couldn't do that to my kids. I didn't even want to do that to B1. I didn't want to hurt him, I just couldn't bear my own hurt anymore. 

While I will acknowledge that the lying, deceiving, and cheating, itself, was totally selfish, I simply cannot believe that all cheaters are totally selfish. At least not in every aspect of their lives, not even while cheating. If I had been, I wouldn't be here today. I'd be dead. My children would be motherless, and B1 would be a broken man. Because, you see, he did eventually get the help the needed, on his own, during my A. And, suddenly, out of nowhere, he was ready and he wanted a real marriage. Only then did he wake up, look around, and realize that I was already gone. We hadn't slept together in over a year, not since before my A ever began. And, not once, after I quit initiating, did he ever attempt to initiate any kind of intimacy with me. We quit arguing about our marriage. We rarely ever talked at all during my A, unless it was about our children or our tanking finances. He seemed a lot happier, too. He later admitted that he was. The pressure to "work on us" was no longer a constant battle that he had to fight to keep me at arm's length. And, I don't just mean sexually, I mean in every possible way that you can imagine. We didn't share a bed. We only shared children, bills, and unspoken heartache. 

About 2 1/2 weeks after D-Day, I shared my story on TAM. I asked about how much detail I should share with him. He was suffering and it truly broke my heart for him. B1 stumbled upon my thread while doing a Google search about betrayal and details. He was tormented with the desire to hear every single detail. So, after he found my thread, he started one his own. Those were some good times..... Not. I didn't have any intentions of reconciling with him in the beginning. But, we were at least a year away from even the possibility of being able to get a divorce. And, we still had to live together, under the same roof. So, during that time, in order to survive, we had to find a way to help each other heal. By the grace of God, we did. And, in doing so, we began grow closer and closer to each other, in a more emotionally and physically intimate way than we had ever shared in our whole 28 years of marriage. Our therapist said we were a miracle. We were truly falling in love.

Still, in those early days on TAM, when we were both still broken and vulnerable, there was a poster named Badblood, who seemed to take great pleasure in breaking me down and keeping me down. He actually made you look like a novice. On more than one occasion, he almost succeeded in permanently knocking me down. Twice, B1 left work early to rush home and comfort me. As much as I needed to be comforted, he also needed to know that he could bring comfort to me. It was healing for both of us. I comforted him, too, every single day, for hours. For at least a year, we spent every waking moment that he wasn't at work, together, talking, touching, holding each other, crying together, healing. 

Just like all BS's, WS's are real people behind these keyboards. I know that you've been hurt, but so have I. And, hurt is hurt, whether you are a BS or a WS. Hurt f'ing hurts. 

I know that I'm not *totally* selfish. I know that I don't have deplorable character. I know this because even in the midst of my A, I still had compassion for anyone who was hurting, even those who had hurt me. As selfish as it was, I had to find some of that compassion for the broken person who I had become. A person who, at that time, was struggling to find a way just to stay alive. That's why I'm adamant about sharing our whole story. Because I know that there are others out there whose marriages are irretrievably broken. Others whose lives have been besieged by multiple health issues, depression, low Testosterone, huge financial obstacles, special needs children, bankruptcy, lawsuits, care-giving for dying parents, issues with their children, infidelity, and other obstacles that we've never shared with anyone. Many hardships that most people will hopefully never have to experience, or at least not all of them. I want to be able to lay it all out there, and then say....... THERE IS HOPE! Because, sometimes, when you're at your lowest point, hope is all you've got.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> My bad. I should change that to "you're calling him clueless and stupid". I'm not sure if that's better or not.


Really, I don't recall calling anybody , anything, except, of course , myself. And general references to the issues all BS's have.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> A marriage consists of two people, if one of the persons (WS) cheats, but the other person (BS) believes the marriage is solid. Is the marriage solid, after all? I think not. Nobody can convince me that cheating happens in a truly good marriage. There is always a cause, and that cause, whatever it is, is what makes the marriage bad.


I realize that this was posted a few pages back, and maybe I should read ahead a bit before posting this, but oh well...

I believe ^this^ statement, _in a *very* general sense_, to be accurate.

My only _real_ issue w/ this statement (or others like it) is that it's too easy to read it and get the impression that what you're saying is that the BS is always the one "at fault" for the lack of said "solid" marriage. Obviously that's not the case.

After all, if a given marriage is 95 to 99 percent "solid" for the BS but only 75 to 80 percent "solid" for the WS, then that's a problem. But if the reason(s) behind the lack of fulfillment for the WS aren't effectively communicated to the BS, then obviously that's on the WS.

And let's be honest... _sometimes_ the only thing that's really "lacking" for the WS is a bit of strange.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I realize that this was posted a few pages back, and maybe I should read ahead a bit before posting this, but oh well...
> 
> I believe ^this^ statement, _in a *very* general sense_, to be accurate.
> 
> ...


Yeah you need to read forward a bit. He doesn't believe any of that. Only bad marriages make affairs and cheating happen. That's what's obvious to him.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> These days you may be expecting too much. Indeed history tells us that cheating has ALWAYS been a problem. And women have borne the disproportionate share of the blame. *King David was a cheater and did some pretty horrible things.* But he was an "alpha" male (boy, do I hate that term) so God not only forgave him, but rewarded him.
> 
> Don't misunderstand. I am all in favor of committed relationships that include honesty and integrity. I'm just not shocked to discover relationships in which that doesn't happen.


Uriah the Hittite. 'Nuff said.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Uriah the Hittite. 'Nuff said.


He doesn't get away with it either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I realize that this was posted a few pages back, and maybe I should read ahead a bit before posting this, but oh well...
> 
> I believe ^this^ statement, _in a *very* general sense_, to be accurate.
> 
> ...


Gus, I'm not apportioning blame to anybody specific. I definitely agree that most issues are created by improper or non-existent communications between spouses. The amount of blame for a "non-solid" marriage is specific to each marriage. It can (and usually is) BOTH, or it can be more on one than the other. Depends on the marriage.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Uriah the Hittite. 'Nuff said.


I always felt sorry for that guy.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yeah you need to read forward a bit. He doesn't believe any of that. Only bad marriages make affairs and cheating happen. That's what's obvious to him.


Given my familiarity w/ the usual back and forth that all too often occurs in these "debate" threads, I'm not necessarily inclined to believe that.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Gus, I'm not apportioning blame to anybody specific. I definitely agree that most issues are created by improper or non-existent communications between spouses. The amount of blame for a "non-solid" marriage is specific to each marriage. It can (and usually is) BOTH, or it can be more on one than the other. Depends on the marriage.


Word.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> I always felt sorry for that guy.


Ditto. King David was a d*ck.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Ditto. King David was a d*ck.


He was good at singing and killing but pretty much sucked everywhere else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Plus, I NEVER liked King David. He caused me to get into trouble in Bible School, when I was a kid.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

It's David and Goliath and Samson and Delilah. We had this kid in Bible School who ALWAYS said David and Delilah and Samson and Goliath. One day I told him he was a dumb a$$, the teacher heard me, kicked me out of Bible school and when I got home I got an ass whippen. David has been on my sh*t list, ever since.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Given my familiarity w/ the usual back and forth that all too often occurs in these "debate" threads, I'm not necessarily inclined to believe that.


 Certainly there to read for yourself


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EI said:


> I agree with everything you just said, with the exception of the word "totally." I cannot argue that my cheating was not 100% totally selfish. Cheating, no matter what the circumstances are, no matter what the reasons are, is *always, completely, and totally selfish.* I don't know how many times and how many ways I can acknowledge that I understand and accept that. Because, I do. I did it. I chose it. Cheating was for me, about me, and was for the "benefit" of no one, except me. What I did was wrong and it was selfish. I still grieve, every day, because I was not a stronger person back then...


I have spent several years in therapy to try to gain an understanding of the WS .. in order to forgive as opposed to condemn and to find compassion for something I do not understand. Allow me a minute to explain ...

All neurotic behavior taken to its extreme is either homicidal or suicidal. That is, when you are emotionally stressed beyond your ability to cope: your reaction will be homicidal or suicidal. This is in stark contrast to the contention, "All people are capable of infidelity under the right conditions". Depression represents a suicidal tendency (internalized coping), infidelity represents the homicidal tendency (externalized coping).

1) You do not get to decide which coping you will invoke under duress. Homicidal vs suicidal is not a conscious choice.

2) It appears at an unconscious level, neurotic behavior attracts its opposite. Anxious attachment needs will attract avoidant attachment needs. 

WS are demonized because homicidal tendencies victimize others, whereas suicidal tendencies victimize the self. We can debate why recorded history punishes homicide more than suicide, but I trust this is empirically true. (probably due to an an intrinsic respect for self-determination)

What do we learn from this? You cannot change your basic psychological disposition ... WS will always externalize coping, it simply cannot be changed. As a BS, I have to accept this about a partner or separate. You've seen me compare the emotional scaring of infidelity with the violent trauma of rape. Would a sane person ever reestablish a relationship with their rapist? 

I watched a Ted Talk that explained what would precede this seemingly impossible reconciliation. 
Prison Rehab from the Inside

Redemption (maybe what TAM calls remorse)
1) Acknowledgment
2) Apology
3) Atonement

This is a very tall order (heavy lifting) for the WS. Is it any wonder why true reconciliation is so rare?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Jung_admirer said:


> I have spent several years in therapy to try to gain an understanding of the WS .. in order to forgive as opposed to condemn and to find compassion for something I do not understand. Allow me a minute to explain ...
> 
> All neurotic behavior taken to its extreme is either homicidal or suicidal. That is, when you are emotionally stressed beyond your ability to cope: your reaction will be homicidal or suicidal. This is in stark contrast to the contention, "All people are capable of infidelity under the right conditions". Depression represents a suicidal tendency (internalized coping), infidelity represents the homicidal tendency (externalized coping).
> 
> ...




And on top of this if you are dealing with a bad marriage where the WS wasn't being taken care of in addition to this then you also have those whole bevy of issues to deal with. Under those circumstances any two people who can reconcile is honestly amazing.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

I at least I have some respect for the wayward that come here for advice even though some approach it wrong in the beginning.

My wwife would never come to a forum for advice. she even gets made I am here.

oh and forget about Love shack we had a two day fight over that she thought it was a hook-up site. I tried to show her.

classic rug sweeper. I won't let her


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> I know a gambler who cheated his wife out of a fortune by draining her bank account.


Then he's a selfish bastard


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> My comparison does work. I'm speaking of spouses who gamble with too much family money. Note that I said *gambles to excess.* This ruins marriages, causes divorce and much unhappiness. That's what I was talking about. I wasn't talking about buying a two dollar lottery ticket once a month.


I can agree with that. But we are talking about cheating here and if your point was that selfishness isn't unique to cheating, come on, nobody here believes that cheating is the only selfish act in the world. Its common sense.




> Cheating isn't good. Some of it is even justifiable. It is also almost always selfish, but not absolutely always.


Nope. Never justifiable. It is ALWAYS a selfish act, and those that are engaging in it ARE selfish. Some are selfish only during their affairs, some are always selfish.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I agree with everything you just said, with the exception of the word "totally." I cannot argue that my cheating was not 100% totally selfish. Cheating, no matter what the circumstances are, no matter what the reasons are, is *always, completely, and totally selfish.* I don't know how many times and how many ways I can acknowledge that I understand and accept that. Because, I do. I did it. I chose it. Cheating was for me, about me, and was for the "benefit" of no one, except me. What I did was wrong and it was selfish. I still grieve, every day, because I was not a stronger person back then.


I can agree that "totally" could be removed and just simply leave it at "selfish" 

But I'm confused, you take exception to the word "totally" then argue that against that, at least with regards to when you were actively engaging in an affair.

And I don't think you are a selfish person, but during your affair, yes.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Then he's a selfish bastard


:iagree::iagree::iagree: He needs to be held responsible for such abhorrent behavior.

But he didn't cheat her out of "her" anything. He squandered "their" money. If it were "her" bank account as you claim then he couldn't access anything and she would have a legal case to sue the bank for misappropriation of her funds by dispersing them to other than the named account holder. Once he is on the account then they become "their" funds so not a very good refuting claim.


----------



## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Jung_admirer said:


> When trying to explain to a WS how infidelity feels to to a BS, I substitute the term rape. But it's not just any form of rape. The rape occurs while I am blinded by lies and deception. It is a violation of my soul in that it destroys my most cherished parts: love, trust, vulnerability. For me,
> 
> I had a PA = I raped my BS
> 
> ...


If that's the analogy perhaps that's why BS and substitute BS speaking on their behalf (and perhaps vicariously) are upset by the implications of anything besides the WS being a horrible, selfish person, that the attitudes, behaviors, or choices of the BS might or might not have made contributed to the situation, or perhaps most fundamentally questionable do happy people in happy marriages cheat?

Because these are all feelings (amongst a myriad of others) that survivors of physical rape or sexual coercion encounter. 

Can someone indeed be a "good person" and a rapist? (You'd hope no one argue yes, but high profile cases sadly reveal people making this argument.) If BS do indeed feel the betrayal was a rape, that's the argument they might feel we are attempting. Hence the expectations of contrition.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> I can agree that "totally" could be removed and just simply leave it at "selfish"
> 
> But I'm confused, you take exception to the word "totally" then argue that against that, at least with regards to when you were actively engaging in an affair.
> 
> And I don't think you are a selfish person, but during your affair, yes.


Okay, deal!


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> Okay, deal!


*Deal! Shake on it*


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> If that's the analogy perhaps that's why BS and substitute BS speaking on their behalf (and perhaps vicariously) are upset by the implications of anything besides the WS being a horrible, selfish person, that the attitudes, behaviors, or choices of the BS might or might not have made contributed to the situation, or perhaps most fundamentally questionable do happy people in happy marriages cheat?
> 
> Because these are all feelings (amongst a myriad of others) that survivors of physical rape or sexual coercion encounter.
> 
> *Can someone indeed be a "good person" and a rapist?* (You'd hope no one argue yes, but high profile cases sadly reveal people making this argument.) If BS do indeed feel the betrayal was a rape, that's the argument they might feel we are attempting. Hence the expectations of contrition.


No, but a rapist can become a "good person". That is the hope of reconciliation.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Jung_admirer said:


> No, but a rapist can become a "good person". That is the hope of reconciliation.


We like to imagine that the monsters among us look like this...










...when, in truth, they often look like this...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> No, but a rapist can become a "good person". That is the hope of reconciliation.


Once they are in the ground, I get along just fine with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Whoa there, Tex!! Aren't we getting a little TOO dramatic here? Comparing cheaters to movie monsters, rapists, addicts and TV characters helps nobody, with nothing. The reality is much more mundane. When I discovered my wife's affair, I was really, really pissed, but I knew that it wasn't the end of the world, and that I would get over it with time . For BS's to use their status as BS's as an excuse to berate somebody that they do not know and have no contact with in RL, is nonsense. I got rear ended in the mall parking lot a couple of weeks ago, does that give me the right to beat the crap out of the next driver I see rear end somebody? A little moderation seems called for , here.
Is cheating selfish?........yep. Are cheaters selfish all of the time?.......nope.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I thought cheaters had pointy teeth and tails.&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> We understand the laws of cause and effect just fine. Just not your version of it.


There is only one law of cause and effect. First you have the cause.....then you have the effect. If you are aware of any other one, I and all of science would be interested in hearing about it.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

I think it's hilarious how often that cheaters blame their own cheating on their partner. The ole "you forced me to do this." The ultimate denial in their own failure and bad behavior.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> There is only one law of cause and effect. First you have the cause.....then you have the effect. If you are aware of any other one, I and all of science would be interested in hearing about it.


People behaviors are more complicated than a scientific approach 
Emotion is more complicated than a scientific approach 
Realtionships are more complicated than a scientific approach

Seriously how do you believe any of this nonsense.

But to a greater point since you seem to think everything can be drilled down to over simplification then here you go

Good marriage
Cause cheating or one night stand
Effect bad marriage and divorce or reconciliation

You'll turn this I'm sure as it is simply logic but there you go


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Yes, we also hear the "don't judge me" thing.



On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can ever enter into in their lives and they chose to crap all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can every enter into in their lives and they chose to **** all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.


I understand your anger. So are you a BS?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> There is only one law of cause and effect. First you have the cause.....then you have the effect. If you are aware of any other one, I and all of science would be interested in hearing about it.


There is the cheater's law of cause and effect, which goes against all of science. Their version is to cheat and get caught, then to turn around and rewrite the marital/ relationship history so that they can blame their "effect" (cheating in this case) on something that may or may not exist in reality. In essence they are doing the "effect" whether or not the "cause" exists, but then blaming based upon such law. 

Cause and effect have a direct relationship, such as the brakes failed so I crashed. In their world the effect can happen at anytime for any reason and after possible deliberation takes place and the two stand alone actions are related as a cause and effect scenario. This goes against the laws of cause and effect, but to use that defense creates a new phenomenon of it (i.e. You yelled at and ignored me so after several weeks and much deliberation, I decided I couldn't take it any more and slept with someone to get even with you and retaliate against your behavior.) That is their usage of cause and effect although wrong.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can every enter into in their lives and they chose to **** all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.


While I don't hold them to the same standard as you I certainly do judge them. My x wife cheated on every relationship she was ever in including ours. She had that pattern and I shouldn't have dated or married her cause of it but I was young and naive and believed her when she said she reformed. I now know better.

So as I dated again that was my one hard and fast rule is that I won't date someone who previously cheated in a realtionship. Don't care if it was their last marriage or in high school. I have zero interest in taking that risk on anyone who was once able to justify committing such a selfish act. So I definetly judge them as they apply to my own life.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I thought cheaters had pointy teeth and tails.��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Only the males. The females have really long fingernails and red eyes.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I understand your anger. So are you a BS?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it that obvious? lol


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> People behaviors are more complicated than a scientific approach
> Emotion is more complicated than a scientific approach
> Realtionships are more complicated than a scientific approach
> 
> ...


Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


Cause yes defintely.  Bad marriage isn't always the cause. But keep living in your fantasy world


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> While I don't hold them to the same standard as you I certainly do judge them. My x wife cheated on every relationship she was ever in including ours. She had that pattern and I shouldn't have dated or married her cause of it but I was young and naive and believed her when she said she reformed. I now know better.
> 
> So as I dated again that was my one hard and fast rule is that I won't date someone who previously cheated in a realtionship. Don't care if it was their last marriage or in high school. I have zero interest in taking that risk on anyone who was once able to justify committing such a selfish act. So I definetly judge them as they apply to my own life.


They don't reform. It's a fundamental character flaw that they have no integrity. They can't figure out how to gain integrity when they have none. Think about it. They're willing to betray and lie to the person who is closest to them on this planet. Anyone who would do that is probably 99.999% unsavable. I left a .001% chance of them saving themselves because I'm an optimist. LOL


----------



## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


Loose morals or succumbing to temptations can also be a cause.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Squeakr said:


> There is the cheater's law of cause and effect, which goes against all of science. Their version is to cheat and get caught, then to turn around and rewrite the marital/ relationship history so that they can blame their "effect" (cheating in this case) on something that may or may not exist in reality. In essence they are doing the "effect" whether or not the "cause" exists, but then blaming based upon such law.
> 
> Cause and effect have a direct relationship, such as the brakes failed so I crashed. In their world the effect can happen at anytime for any reason and after possible deliberation takes place and the two stand alone actions are related as a cause and effect scenario. This goes against the laws of cause and effect, but to use that defense creates a new phenomenon of it (i.e. You yelled at and ignored me so after several weeks and much deliberation, I decided I couldn't take it any more and slept with someone to get even with you and retaliate against your behavior.) That is their usage of cause and effect although wrong.


Very good words.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Only the males. The females have really long fingernails and red eyes.


I'm taking notes....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ChristianGrey said:


> Loose morals or succumbing to temptations can also be a cause.


Of course , they are.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Is it that obvious? lol


Lucky guess....&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I'm taking notes....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cheaters are on page two of the Necronomicon, right after werewolves, and right before, the Loch Ness Monster.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

KingwoodKev said:


> They don't reform. It's a fundamental character flaw that they have no integrity. They can't figure out how to gain integrity when they have none. Think about it. They're willing to betray and lie to the person who is closest to them on this planet. Anyone who would do that is probably 99.999% unsavable. I left a .001% chance of them saving themselves because I'm an optimist. LOL


That's a harsh truth my friend. And I can't say that you're wrong on any count. For men and women who reconcile and the WS who reform from their own affair I do wonder if it will last. My x, the reformed lol, made it 14 years without and then decide it was time to play. I had a male friend once who also pushed good people out of his life with nonsense because of his childhood abandonment issues. Couldn't have people too close and couldn't settle in happiness.

It would be interesting to hear from WS who owned, reformed, reconciled only to turn and do it again years later. I don't know what the statistic on that would be but my guess is high without some heavy individual counseling to understand what is making them capable of doing these things?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


We all know there is a cause. Its common sense.

We just don't all agree on what the cause is.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can ever enter into in their lives and they chose to crap all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.


Kev, welcome to TAM. If you have a story, we'd love to help you with it.

I will warn you about how you say things like that above. Even though you didn't target any one individual, be careful. Team Wayward will get you banned. Would like to see you stick around, so just be careful.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> There is only one law of cause and effect. First you have the cause.....then you have the effect. If you are aware of any other one, I and all of science would be interested in hearing about it.


So let me see if I get this cause and effect thing right, since you insist that it's the correct way to analyze it.

Situation: 
Wife in either bad marriage or good marriage. If good marriage then proceed directly to step 3.
1. Fix bad marriage with communication and counselling
2. Negative result
3. Infidelity presents itself as an oportunity
4. calculation of benefit vs. cost where Cost = (Investment in marriage + Pain on self + Pain on affected people + loss of moral/self)*risk of getting caught 
5. Evaluation of alternatives
6. Rejection of alternatives
7. Decision to have sex with OM
8. Sex with OM
9. D-day
10. Bad marriage or worse marriage

This is one way to view cause and effect. In my opinion, a lot of people skip the steps 1-6 in an attempt to rationalize and justify them selves when they reach step 10, would that be a wrong cause and effect model?

I think other people may have different models of cause and effect as well. So who should be the judge of which model is the correct one?


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Kev, welcome to TAM. If you have a story, we'd love to help you with it.
> 
> I will warn you about how you say things like that above. Even though you didn't target any one individual, be careful. Team Wayward will get you banned. Would like to see you stick around, so just be careful.


Banned for speaking the truth? That doesn't seem right. That sounds like wayward's refusing to accept who they are.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> We all know there is a cause. Its common sense.
> 
> We just don't all agree on what the cause is.


As long as there is an admission that a cause, in fact, exists, what that cause is, probably has something to do with the marriage, considering that there are only two people in it, and one of them is a cheater.. I would really like to see these perfect marriages that have infidelity in them. That would be like the flu without a virus. Or getting drunk on non-alcoholic beer.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

cpacan said:


> So let me see if I get this cause and effect thing right, since you insist that it's the correct way to analyze it.
> 
> Situation:
> Wife in either bad marriage or good marriage. If good marriage then proceed directly to step 3.
> ...


Nope..wrong. .1. marriage exists. 2. there is a cause or causes for cheating. 3. Spouse cheats. That's pretty much it, everything else is variable.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Cheaters are on page two of the Necronomicon, right after werewolves, and right before, the Loch Ness Monster.


That is the first time I've heard that book mentioned since high school with my role playing buddies!&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Banned for speaking the truth? That doesn't seem right. That sounds like wayward's refusing to accept who they are.


You can speak your mind. Just read up on forum guidelines.

TAM allows some pretty hard hitting. Just try to be constructive. Advise or comments don't have to be gentle but it helps if they are not simply bashing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope..wrong. .1. marriage exists. 2. there is a cause or causes for cheating. 3. Spouse cheats. That's pretty much it, everything else is variable.


Actually 1 and 3 are variable too, as cheating/ infidelity happens in committed and long term relationships as well where no marriage exists.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

You see, Cpacan, too many posters are looking to fix blame , make excuses, or vent hatred. Very few actually want to find or are willing to face the cause or causes for infidelity. It's so much easier to think that the Devil made them do it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> That is the first time I've heard that book mentioned since high school with my role playing buddies!����
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here. I read H.P. Lovecraft years ago.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Actually 1 and 3 are variable too, as cheating/ infidelity happens in committed and long term relationships as well where no marriage exists.


You are right, Squeakr, I should have said relationships. My bad.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> As long as there is an admission that a cause, in fact, exists, what that cause is, probably has something to do with the marriage, considering that there are only two people in it, and one of them is a cheater.. I would really like to see these perfect marriages that have infidelity in them. That would be like the flu without a virus. Or getting drunk on non-alcoholic beer.


Nope again not even close.

First no such thing as a perfect marriage. 

Second someone who has a problem inside a marriage can be a cancer to it no matter how hard the other person works as I found out. In my case my x has some deep seeded child abandonment issues with her bio dad and a host of bad realtionship examples from her mom. These things were all well intrenched prior to our marriage, hell the first one was said and done prior to when I met her at 14. Those issues had zero, zilch ,nada to do with our marriage. This had to do with her own personal traumas in early life.

You are seriously stubborn, or arrogant to think others who experience this must be imagining it. Or the WS who admit to this must be lying. Or the professional therapist who identified this is just not as smart as you.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Whoa there, Tex!! Aren't we getting a little TOO dramatic here? Comparing cheaters to movie monsters, rapists, addicts and TV characters helps nobody, with nothing.


You're reading something into that reply that simply wasn't there. I wasn't comparing cheaters to anything. My response was directed solely -- at yet very generally -- at the "Can rapists be or become good people?" question/argument.



Rookie4 said:


> The reality is much more mundane.


Agreed. And, again, though I wasn't directly addressing the topic of adultery, that was kind of my point.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


_Everything_ has a cause, and to deny that is nothing short of naiveté. But that notion goes hand-in-hand w/ the realization that said reason _isn't always *valid*_.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You see, Cpacan, too many posters are looking to fix blame , make excuses, or vent hatred. Very few actually want to find or are willing to face the cause or causes for infidelity. It's so much easier to think that the Devil made them do it.


No one is saying devil. You are just way to close minded to see that when a relationship consits of two people at times one or both those people can be flawed. The person is flawed not the Relationship. It's like saying bad marriages cause alcoholism. No it's doesn't the problem with person causes that not a relationship.

And I asked you before and will ask again since you know that the answer will negate your argument but it's fun to point out the flawed logic.

So if bad marriages is all that are needed for someone to cheat then how is it not every single person in a bad marriage cheats. My your account I must have been in a horrible and rotten marriage because my x cheated. So why didn't I?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> _Everything_ has a cause, and to deny that is nothing short of naiveté. But that notion goes hand-in-hand w/ the realization that said reason _isn't always *valid*_.


Point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope..wrong. .1. marriage exists. 2. there is a cause or causes for cheating. 3. Spouse cheats. That's pretty much it, everything else is variable.


I should've known you would just reject it. The cause is also variable, since human decission is involved, and humans are different.

You can't find a cause, where there's a one-on-one relationship always leading directly to infidelity. If you can, it should be very easy to prove.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can ever enter into in their lives and they chose to crap all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.





vellocet said:


> Kev, welcome to TAM. If you have a story, we'd love to help you with it.
> 
> I will warn you about how you say things like that above. Even though you didn't target any one individual, be careful. Team Wayward will get you banned. Would like to see you stick around, so just be careful.



Oh, don't be ridiculous, vell, I wasn't planning anything of the sort!  I was just getting ready to introduce myself to Kev as a resident of TAM, and former WS. And, maybe later, I might even show him my long, jagged fingernails and stare at him with my evil red eyes. :FIREdevil: 



Ha, just kiddin',  it's Friday, the sun is shining, and I'm off to run errands. 

P.S. vellocet, remember the pm that you sent to me a week or so ago? If you recall, I responded, and you responded back. Then, I responded to your response, clarifying the concerns you had in your 2nd pm. But, for whatever reason, you chose not to read my 2nd response. (I know this because I always ask for a read receipt.) I don't think it's very polite to send a pm and then refuse to read the answer.

I hope this doesn't have a negative effect on our handshake deal!


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> No one is saying devil. You are just way to close minded to see that when a relationship consits of two people at times one or both those people can be flawed. The person is flawed not the Relationship. It's like saying bad marriages cause alcoholism. No it's doesn't the problem with person causes that not a relationship.
> 
> And I asked you before and will ask again since you know that the answer will negate your argument but it's fun to point out the flawed logic.
> 
> So if bad marriages is all that are needed for someone to cheat then how is it not every single person in a bad marriage cheats. My your account I must have been in a horrible and rotten marriage because my x cheated. So why didn't I?


Ok, let me get this straight. 1. You have a marriage. 2. Two people are in it 3. One of them is"flawed" But ..4. the marriage is good. 4. Except for that adultery thing. Ok, it's your story.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

cpacan said:


> I should've known you would just reject it. The cause is also variable, since human decission is involved, and humans are different.
> 
> You can't find a cause, where there's a one-on-one relationship always leading directly to infidelity. If you can, it should be very easy to prove.


The cause isn't always something profound like an abusive, besotted, and/or checked-out spouse, death in the family, or whatever. Sometimes it's just that than the allure of an attractive co-worker, old boyfriend/girlfriend, or random bar skank is too much to pass up. Throw in factors like alcohol, travelling for work, any insecurities or baggage that the WS might be carrying around, and you have the perfect recipe for infidelity.

These things make the marriage flawed in that (a) a marriage is (usually, anyway) a union between two people, and (b) _the WS is a *part* of the marriage_. It's not (necessarily) an indictment of the character of the BS or his/her pre-affair commitment to his/her marriage to acknowledge this.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

cpacan said:


> I should've known you would just reject it. The cause is also variable, since human decission is involved, and humans are different.
> 
> You can't find a cause, where there's a one-on-one relationship always leading directly to infidelity. If you can, it should be very easy to prove.


So, because you can't find the cause, or don't want to try to, or it's hard to do, then the cause doesn't exist? I sure hope my doctor doesn't feel that way.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You see, Cpacan, too many posters are looking to fix blame


You mean like how you do? That there just has to be something lacking in the BS to cause their spouse to cheat?




> make excuses, or vent hatred. Very few actually want to find or are willing to face the cause or causes for infidelity. It's so much easier to think that the Devil made them do it.


You know what, you always put stuff like this out there, then claim something to the effect of, "but I'm also a BS, so there goes your little theory". 
I don't believe that you were ever "just" a BS. Methinks you went to the darkside yourself a time or two.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> Oh, don't be ridiculous, vell, I wasn't planning anything of the sort!  I was just getting ready to introduce myself to Kev as a resident of TAM, and former WS. And, maybe later, I might even show him my long, jagged fingernails and stare at him with my evil red eyes.


Mrs. Conan might have some advice for your nails. I hear Visine gets the red out.&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;&#55357;&#56840;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, let me get this straight. 1. You have a marriage. 2. Two people are in it 3. One of them is"flawed" But ..4. the marriage is good. 4. Except for that adultery thing. Ok, it's your story.


No story was what I lived. If a marriage is good they, the people in it, compliment each other and each other's weaknesses. They present a stronger front together then apart. She did this for me I did this for her but unfortunately her problems were more than I could personally fix.

So are you now going to answer my question. If a bad marriage is the only thing that is required for a person to cheat, and by your logic I had a bad marriage because my x wife cheated then why didn't I?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Point.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I NEVER, EVER said that the cause was always valid, or even a little bit valid. I said that it exists, and we should try to find out what it is. Nothing more than that.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> Oh, don't be ridiculous, vell, I wasn't planning anything of the sort!


Nothing ridiculous about it, and if you thought I was talking about you, that's your problem.




> P.S. vellocet, remember the pm that you sent to me a week or so ago? If you recall, I responded, and you responded back. Then, I responded to your response, clarifying the concerns you had in your 2nd pm. But, for whatever reason, you chose not to read my 2nd response. (I know this because I always ask for a read receipt.) I don't think it's very polite to send a pm and then refuse to read the answer.


I read them, I just refuse read receipts.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Treating the symptoms of infidelity is important, but it isn't all that is important. Treating the CAUSES is also important.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

So if the "cause" is that said cheater just likes variety in sexual partners, and really isn't suited for monogamy in the first place, how do you treat that?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> No story was what I lived. If a marriage is good they, the people in it, compliment each other and each other's weaknesses. They present a stronger front together then apart. She did this for me I did this for her but unfortunately her problems were more than I could personally fix.
> 
> So are you now going to answer my question. If a bad marriage is the only thing that is required for a person to cheat, and by your logic I had a bad marriage because my x wife cheated then why didn't I?


The answer , of course , is that you DID have a bad marriage. Your wife cheated on you multiple times and you really believe that you had a good marriage? Sorry, Wolf, but I don't think so. I will agree that it is your call , but I wouldn't call it a good marriage. Nor would I tolerate it.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

You still didn't answer his question


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Treating the symptoms of infidelity is important, but it isn't all that is important. Treating the CAUSES is also important.


Holy crap and I agree. Had my x come to me prior to her physical affair and told me what was going on then I would have said you need to go to some IC to once and for all work out your issues. This is something that I had encouraged for years but she didn't want to acknowledge them.

Later, and I know you will think I must have imagined this too, she agreed that would have been the right thing to do to prevent the affair but she couldn't see it at the time.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I NEVER, EVER said that the cause was always valid, or even a little bit valid. I said that it exists, and we should try to find out what it is. Nothing more than that.


Gotcha. I think your saying that if one spouse becomes a cheater then the marriage wasn't that good because of the cheater's cheating? Not necessarily because the BS was making it a bad marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The answer , of course , is that you DID have a bad marriage. Your wife cheated on you multiple times and you really believe that you had a good marriage? Sorry, Wolf, but I don't think so. I will agree that it is your call , but I wouldn't call it a good marriage. Nor would I tolerate it.


Having a spouse w/ a perpetual desire for infidelity makes for one of THE archetypal bad marriages. But that doesn't mean that it was bad because of YOU, Wolf.

And just because it wasn't bad (at least as far as you knew) prior to your discovery of her affairs doesn't mean that it wasn't bad.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> So are you now going to answer my question. If a bad marriage is the only thing that is required for a person to cheat, and by your logic I had a bad marriage because my x wife cheated then *why didn't I*?


Since he didn't want to answer it, I will. 

If marriage is bad for both spouses and only one cheats, then the difference is.....*drumroll*......character.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Gotcha. I think your saying that if one spouse becomes a cheater then the marriage wasn't that good because of the cheater's cheating? Not necessarily because the BS was making it a bad marriage?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> So if the "cause" is that said cheater just likes variety in sexual partners, and really isn't suited for monogamy in the first place, how do you treat that?


That is called a "dealbreaker". You dissolve the partnership.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The answer , of course , is that you DID have a bad marriage. Your wife cheated on you multiple times and you really believe that you had a good marriage? Sorry, Wolf, but I don't think so. I will agree that it is your call , but I wouldn't call it a good marriage. Nor would I tolerate it.


And I didn't tolerate it. She is gone. But let me get this straight you feel that you somehow have the ability to call other people's marriages good or bad because of your narrow definitions of them. I lived in it and while it wasn't perfect it was certainly good. I'm wondering where this high enlightend status comes from that you think you know better than people living inside the marriage. I thought it was good. My x thought it was good. But rookie doesn't so it must not be? 

Really? Is that where we are at?

I mean I am trying to give you some benefit of the doubt. The only person who ever said something more absurd to me on here was that they knew better how I felt about a situation than I did. This is getting pretty close to that.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


>


Woohoo! Definitely how I feel right now!&#55357;&#56833; Been gone on business for two days. Almost home and into Mrs. Conan's barbaric embrace!&#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833; 

Gonna have me some good beer too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Having a spouse w/ a perpetual desire for infidelity makes for one of THE archetypal bad marriages. But that doesn't mean that it was bad because of YOU, Wolf.
> 
> And just because it wasn't bad (at least as far as you knew) prior to your discovery of her affairs doesn't mean that it wasn't bad.


Exactly my point. Thank you.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Gotcha. I think your saying that if one spouse becomes a cheater then the marriage wasn't that good because of the cheater's cheating? Not necessarily because the BS was making it a bad marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely right. The thing is, that Wolf and others are so concerned with who is to blame, that it clouds their thinking. I stated, very clearly, that I was NOT APPORTIONING BLAME. I DO NOT think that Wolf was to blame , in any way , shape or form.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> That is called a "dealbreaker". You dissolve the partnership.


Which is what I did. Thanks for the answer


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> And I didn't tolerate it. She is gone. But let me get this straight you feel that you somehow have the ability to call other people's marriages good or bad because of your narrow definitions of them. I lived in it and while it wasn't perfect it was certainly good. I'm wondering where this high enlightend status comes from that you think you know better than people living inside the marriage. I thought it was good. My x thought it was good. But rookie doesn't so it must not be?
> 
> Really? Is that where we are at?
> 
> I mean I am trying to give you some benefit of the doubt. The only person who ever said something more absurd to me on here was that they knew better how I felt about a situation than I did. This is getting pretty close to that.


Do you never read the whole posts? I clearly stated that it was your call, and I clearly stated that it was only my opinion. You asked me, and I told you. If you don't want my opinion, then don't ask me .


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Do you never read the whole posts? I clearly stated that it was your call, and I clearly stated that it was only my opinion. You asked me, and I told you. If you don't want my opinion, then don't ask me .


No, he asked you that if the marriage is bad for both spouses, then why didn't he cheat. And then you did the Charles Durning governor of Texas dancing a little sidestep


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Absolutely right. The thing is, that Wolf and others are so concerned with who is to blame, that it clouds their thinking. I stated, very clearly, that I was NOT APPORTIONING BLAME. I DO NOT think that Wolf was to blame , in any way , shape or form.


There is no cloudy thinking. I know her cheating was on her, she knows her cheating was on her. Both our therapists know it was on her and said so. This was the easier conclusion to get to


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

It still isn't always the case. If one spouse has some condition that existed prior to the M and has been undiagnosed or treated and they cheat due to this condition, it is no reflection on the state (good or bad) of the M. The M shouldn't be judged as such based upon this possibility. That is wolf is saying I believe. 

Say one spouse has a sexual or drug addiction and has hidden it during the, since left untreated, it has finally come to a head and they can't control it anymore and because of this addiction they cheat on the other spouse to feed/ satisfy their addiction. After the cheating they now have a bad M (this we can all agree on), but before the cheating the M might have been perfectly fine (not to be read to mean perfect). Does the CS's actions based upon their hide addiction mean that the M was bad? I would say no, and that this is an example of such situations were infidelity occurs in good Ms.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Which is what I did. Thanks for the answer


I think a lot of the problems are that I view the "spiritual" aspect of marriage with a huge amount of skepticism. I consider marriage a form of "life partnership" based on shared feelings, expectations and hopes. I do not, nor have I ever used the term "soulmates" or any other such drivel. The partnership is only valid , if both parties fulfill their part of the bargain. If not, then it remains to see if the bargain can be repaired or if it is too damaged to fix.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> No, he asked you that if the marriage is bad for both spouses, then why didn't he cheat. And then you did the Charles Durning governor of Texas dancing a little sidestep


My guess is that he didn't cheat, because he didn't want to.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Do you never read the whole posts? I clearly stated that it was your call, and I clearly stated that it was only my opinion. You asked me, and I told you. If you don't want my opinion, then don't ask me .


I have NEVER EVER asked you was my marriage good or bad. You have zero say in that as that belongs to only the two people in it. What I WAS asking you was how you substantiate an opinion on all affairs and cheating stem from bad relationships and not from the individual person. That is the discussion not if my marriage was good or bad. You have no idea


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

I just read that infidelity is equivalent to RAPE!?!!? This thread had no chance from the start. Six pages later and we're basically still at, BS's can have done whatever in their relationship, or their lives, bad or good, if they didn't cheat, they're above reproach. WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> My guess is that he didn't cheat, because he didn't want to.


Ok so by that logic and power to make a personal choice....I was unhappy yet decided for myself not to cheat then how can the opposite also not be true. That someone can be happy but make a decision to cheat anyway? 

How do you have one without the other?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> My guess is that he didn't cheat, because he didn't want to.


No no, that's not a "cause". Come on now. If there is a "cause" for the WS to cheat, then there is a "cause" for the BS to not cheat.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

changedbeliefs said:


> I just read that infidelity is equivalent to RAPE!?!!? This thread had no chance from the start. Six pages later and we're basically still at, BS's can have done whatever in their relationship, or their lives, bad or good, if they didn't cheat, they're above reproach. WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


Sad if you took only that small tidbit away from this thread.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Guys... you really are overthinking all this sh*t.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

So where did I ever say that because you are in a bad marriage, you HAVE to cheat? Also, where did I ever state that one or the other people in a bad marriage can and do think the marriage is good? All I ever said was that if there is cheating in a marriage, it is a bad marriage. I never blamed anybody, I never tried to guess at the causes of the cheating, and I have never , in any post specifically blamed anybody but the WS FOR the cheating.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

changedbeliefs said:


> I just read that infidelity is equivalent to RAPE!?!!? This thread had no chance from the start. Six pages later and we're basically still at, BS's can have done whatever in their relationship, or their lives, bad or good, if they didn't cheat, they're above reproach. WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


You so totally missed it! Cheaters have pointy teeth and tails if male and red eyes with pointy fingernails if female.

Keep up man!&#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

changedbeliefs said:


> WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


Adultery is still a capital crime in many states and countries.

Playing devils advocate isn't that exactly what we do to any other felony level criminal. No matter what they have done prior to or since committing their crime they are forever tarnished and judged "despicable" based upon that one (or possibly more) action(s). I know people that were in committed relationships and the males are now registered sex offenders because the girl was under 18 and the guy was prosecuted for statutory rape. He did nothing heinous or inappropriate/ deviant sexually, was just not of the age of consent. He is forever labeled a rapist though. Same thing for people that have been convicted of manslaughter as during a drunken driving incident killed someone. Still considered and called a murderer.

I am not saying it should be that way, but adultery in the bible is one of the worst sins that can be committed, but since these days it is nothing and only the BS is hurt we should look at it differently and less of an offense??


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

changedbeliefs said:


> I just read that infidelity is equivalent to RAPE!?!!? This thread had no chance from the start. Six pages later and we're basically still at, BS's can have done whatever in their relationship, or their lives, bad or good, if they didn't cheat, they're above reproach. WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


It really is very sad. But understandable. It is far , easier, and much less threatening to demonize a cheater, than it is to find out the cause or causes.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EI said:


> P.S. vellocet, remember the pm that you sent to me a week or so ago? If you recall, I responded, and you responded back. Then, I responded to your response, clarifying the concerns you had in your 2nd pm. But, for whatever reason, you chose not to read my 2nd response. (I know this because I always ask for a read receipt.) I don't think it's very polite to send a pm and then refuse to read the answer.


That's some pretty bold talk for someone that didn't reply to my last PM...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Guys... you really are overthinking all this sh*t.


Not at all. Its a simple question.

Marriage is bad for 2 spouses.

One cheats

One does not and would not.

What is the difference between the two spouses?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Not at all. Its a simple question.
> 
> Marriage is bad for 2 spouses.
> 
> ...


 The other question is: if there is cheating in a marriage. Can it be a good marriage?


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Not at all. Its a simple question.
> 
> Marriage is bad for 2 spouses.
> 
> ...


There could _easily_ be more than one. After all, perhaps the only thing that the BS lacked was the opportunity to do so... and for any number of reasons.

And before the pitchforks come out, let me say that I'm obviously not saying that this is true for ALL BS's (even the ones that _knew_ they were in bad marriages and/or that their spouses were cheating), and I'm certainly not saying that it's true of anyone here.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> So where did I ever say that because you are in a bad marriage, you HAVE to cheat? Also, where did I ever state that one or the other people in a bad marriage can and do think the marriage is good?* All I ever said was that if there is cheating in a marriage, it is a bad marriage. *I never blamed anybody, I never tried to guess at the causes of the cheating, and I have never , in any post specifically blamed anybody but the WS FOR the cheating.


not true. You have been stating that if an affair occurs it's because of a bad marriage Not That during an affair a bad marriage exists. Big difference. While an affair is occurring so is everything that goes along with it, lying and deceptive behavior and so on. I can't see how anyone would call that a good and healthy marriage but I'm guessing some do who honestly don't care or using thier spouse for money or whatever. 

But up and until that affair starts a marriage can be good. For my example I knew my x wife since I was 14 years old although we weren't always together we knew one another. Most of the 22 years we spent together was good. Sometimes hard, sometimes near perfection but overall good to great. Once her affair started it spiraled out of control and came apart. 22 years undone by a single act that I was unable and unwilling to move past. It would be foolish to say I had a bad marriage or bad realtionship when only the last 6 months were hell. It ended poorly yes but that doesn't eliminate the 21.5 years that were great.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The other question is: if there is cheating in a marriage. Can it be a good marriage?


This comes down to perception vs. fact.

After all, the marriage could have been good -- and from the perspective of both the BS _and_ the WS -- up until the point at which the infidelity began.

So at what precise point does the good marriage end and the bad marriage begin? It's not always so simple to determine this. (Hell, it might be easier for some to answer the age old question... "When does _life_ begin?") To many, though, it doesn't even matter. But should it?

My take? Yes. After all, ignoring the truth (even if it isn't easy to find) doesn't do anyone any favors.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> You can speak your mind. Just read up on forum guidelines.
> 
> TAM allows some pretty hard hitting. Just try to be constructive. Advise or comments don't have to be gentle but it helps if they are not simply bashing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> not true. You have been stating that if an affair occurs it's because of a bad marriage Not That during an affair a bad marriage exists. Big difference. While an affair is occurring so is everything that goes along with it, lying and deceptive behavior and so on. I can't see how anyone would call that a good and healthy marriage but I'm guessing some do who honestly don't care or using thier spouse for money or whatever.
> 
> But up and until that affair starts a marriage can be good. For my example I knew my x wife since I was 14 years old although we weren't always together we knew one another. Most of the 22 years we spent together was good. Sometimes hard, sometimes near perfection but overall good to great. Once her affair started it spiraled out of control and came apart. 22 years undone by a single act that I was unable and unwilling to move past. It would be foolish to say I had a bad marriage or bad realtionship when only the last 6 months were hell. It ended poorly yes but that doesn't eliminate the 21.5 years that were great.


So now you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Ok, I'm done with this.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> You so totally missed it! Cheaters have pointy teeth and tails if male and red eyes with pointy fingernails if female.
> 
> Keep up man!&#55357;&#56841;&#55357;&#56833;
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are doing a great service here. This helps to know what to look for. (not that it matters to me any longer)


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.


Uh oh. This isn't going to be well received by the apologists.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Uh oh. This isn't going to be well received by the apologists.


As a former BS I couldn't give two sh*ts what cheaters and cheater apologists think. They were wrong. They are the destroyers of families. They broke the most sacred commitment human beings can make. Until they'll admit that then they're hopeless.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> So now you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Ok, I'm done with this.


You just stated the same in previous post. Don't go and get high and mighty now.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.


I agree and so do the remorseful former waywards around here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Kev, you might post a new thread with your story. We have been where you have been and a lot of our stories are probably similar to your own.

You'll be among friends, well, mostly anyway. You are not alone


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> The other question is: if there is cheating in a marriage. Can it be a good marriage?


Sometimes a marriage is bad because the cheater makes it bad because they aren't fit for monogamy/marriage.

And sometimes its bad because either one makes it that way. Still doesn't excuse cheating and the BS still is not the cause of the cheater's decision to cheat. The cause of the cheating is something within the cheater.

You can answer my question now.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

vellocet said:


> Kev, you might post a new thread with your story. We have been where you have been and a lot of our stories are probably similar to your own.
> 
> You'll be among friends, well, mostly anyway. You are not alone


Reliving that would be soul crushing. A person who was the kindest, most honest, loving, caring, smart, funny person you've ever known, a person who was your soulmate, who had been through tough times and good times, who had mothered your children, decides she wants some more excitement and forbidden fruit so she destroys multiple lives in the process. In the end even finds out that to the OM she was just a piece of ass and he had no plans on breaking up his own family. Well, that is, until I informed his wife.

OMW and I actually became close friends. No romance because neither one of us are scumbags like the cheaters but we formed our own 2 person support group. She took the cheating hubby for everything he has and he lives in another state with his parents. In his 40's and lives with his parents. As for my ex she lives alone and is acquiring cats I hear. None of her former family, including the teenage and adult children, want anything to do with her. I hope it was worth it to her.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Yup. Pretty standard destruction to satisfy the crotch monster.

You should tell your story when you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Yup. Pretty standard destruction to satisfy the crotch monster.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Holy crap! This is the best one liner I've ever heard regarding infidelity! :smthumbup:

Shame on you for packing all of my long sad story into one little succinct package...


----------



## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> When you drill down, you'll find the pre-affair marriage was not solid despite the outward appearance. My interpretation is if they were really in solid marriages they wouldn't be saying things about it that made your stomach turn.
> Additionally, women don't come to you and tell you they're losing interest. They tell you by their actions. When you read a thread by a guy who found out his wife is seeing another guy, listen to what he says happened before the discovery.


Which marriage is solid from the wedding day? The books say that the very first year is rocky, then comes the 7 year itch, then comes the midlife crisis. I dunno what your point is. A covenant is a covenant. There is no such thing as a solid marriage. A cheater is a cheater.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.





ConanHub said:


> I agree and so do the remorseful former waywards around here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to apologize to both you and fws'. I do not believe it is even possible for them to truly believe or do this. They cannot betray themselves, imo. There will always be a little part that justifies and that's for self-preservation. It may also be considered a lie to themselves, even though they believe what they are verbalizing and doing. Therefore, it is a lie of the highest order, but then, we all lie to ourselves and others, whether it's a white lie or something we believe is more egregious.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Calibre1212 said:


> Which marriage is solid from the wedding day? The books say that the very first year is rocky, then comes the 7 year itch, then comes the midlife crisis. I dunno what your point is. A covenant is a covenant. There is no such thing as a solid marriage. A cheater is a cheater.


This is why I put so much emphasis on the covenant. It's not the law that stopped me, but it is a reminder. It's the same with murder or any other crime(not saying cheating is necessarily a crime). It's only what a person believes about themselves that keeps them from doing these things. The laws are only reminders of consequences. If there is no consequence, which is becoming more true today than ever in the history of marriage, it's much easier to justify an affair as just another thing that happens when love is no longer felt for a spouse.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Not at all. Its a simple question.
> 
> Marriage is bad for 2 spouses.
> 
> ...


Well, the answer to most of it is that one decides to cheat and the other decides not to. Why? Because of those "causes" I've been talking about. As far as "would not" we debated this in another thread, and I don't believe it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Sometimes a marriage is bad because the cheater makes it bad because they aren't fit for monogamy/marriage.
> 
> And sometimes its bad because either one makes it that way. Still doesn't excuse cheating and the BS still is not the cause of the cheater's decision to cheat. The cause of the cheating is something within the cheater.
> 
> You can answer my question now.


I don't know of anybody who believes that the BS caused the WS to decide to cheat. I think we've pretty much established that.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

EI said:


> I agree with everything you just said, with the exception of the word "totally." I cannot argue that my cheating was not 100% totally selfish. Cheating, no matter what the circumstances are, no matter what the reasons are, is *always, completely, and totally selfish.* I don't know how many times and how many ways I can acknowledge that I understand and accept that. Because, I do. I did it. I chose it. Cheating was for me, about me, and was for the "benefit" of no one, except me. What I did was wrong and it was selfish. I still grieve, every day, because I was not a stronger person back then.
> 
> I wish that I could have found another way to cope with my loneliness, my neediness, my resentment, my anger, and the whole other myriad of miseries that had completely encompassed our lives. Even if B1 and I had not reconciled, I know me, and I know that, today, I would still be looking back on that time with tremendous sadness, regret, and disappointment in myself. While my A was still going on, I was in my therapist's office, almost weekly, trying to reconcile my actions with my values, and I was coming up short every time. I would tell my therapist that I didn't really want to kill myself, I just didn't want to be alive anymore. I spent a lot of hours thinking about dying, wishing that I could just go to sleep and not wake up. But, I couldn't do that to my kids. I didn't even want to do that to B1. I didn't want to hurt him, I just couldn't bear my own hurt anymore.
> 
> ...


This is an amazing post. One of the best I've ever read here. All of us, cheaters, victims, bystanders, all of us can benefit by reading and rereading this posting.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Nothing ridiculous about it, and if you thought I was talking about you, that's your problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, of course you were talking about me,  that's the very subject we discussed in our pm's. But, I don't have a "problem" with it. TBH, I've been through a lot in my life and it takes a lot more than a little jab like that to rattle my chains.  If/when I have a problem with someone, I don't have a "problem" letting them know about it. I never have. Can't see that changing any time soon. 

As far as you refusing read receipts, well, that really put me in my place! 

P.S. You really don't have a very good sense of humor!!!


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I agree and so do the remorseful former waywards around here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, but I don't make anybody grovel like a dog. Why to satisfy the BS desire to punish, or to re establish their self esteem at the expense of another? I don't believe that any reputable counselor or infidelity website advocates submissive behavior on the part of the WS. Not even the Harley's. Just restitution and honest actions are what most , if not all of them call for.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, the answer to most of it is that one decides to cheat and the other decides not to. Why? Because of those "causes" I've been talking about. As far as "would not" we debated this in another thread, and I don't believe it.


Would you believe that for some, it takes an enormous amount of effort to cheat and for others, very little?

Would you believe that for some, they would rather commit a crime than betray themselves by cheating?

Would you believe that for some, cheating makes them feel physically ill?

Would you believe that for some, there is nothing they can do to force their partner to cheat, but there could be things that they believe about themselves that would allow them to cheat?

Because, like I said, it's not what others do or do not that causes a person to cheat, but what they believe about themselves. 

If cheating is defined as having sex with someone other than your spouse, then having sex with someone other than your spouse is cheating, whether by choice or by force, which is what you contend. There are reasons for each and one is more acceptable to the majority than the other, but if the definition is having sex with someone other than your spouse, it is still cheating. 

Strange thinking? Yes. Valuable truth if understood? Yes.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> He doesn't get away with it either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let's not get too involved in this. But Bathsheba had two children by David. One died soon after Uriah's death, the other was Solomon.

And of course David remained king. And it seemed to me that he got away with it.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Rookie4 said:


> The other question is: if there is cheating in a marriage. Can it be a good marriage?


First, let me just say right now that this thread has gotten WAY off course because people would rather argue. That's one thing I greatly dislike about TAM. Stay on the darn topic and if you want to disagree with someone, state your case ONCE and then just say "I disagree with you." The End. People are allowed to not have the same opinion as you!

Second, I can answer this question. I was a former WS. My Dear Hubby and I did have a "good marriage" before my affair. We were compatible, we had similar goals and dreams and values, we had similar lifestyles and sense of humor, we enjoyed similar recreation, our intelligence was similar, we had supportive spiritual lives, and financially we agreed on the amount of money to earn and how to spend it. I did not disagree with the man and I did not hate him. I actually like him a LOT and very much wanted to be loved by him. 

The issue for us was not "a bad marriage." The issue was that we had a tragic circumstance and he deals with sorrow by pulling inward, working it out, then coming out of his shell---and I deal with sorrow by turning to very select people for a hug, somehow making it through the day with their support, and then working it out. I took his withdrawal to mean he was withdrawing FROM ME. I did do my best to communicate to him that I needed him and his attention, but he just didn't hear it and I don't fault him for that because he was busy "dealing with it" and that took all his focus...for a while. 

See...the marriage was good and still IS good. There was not some gigantic lack of morals or personality disorder. I do have some issues with my past due to physical abuse but I do face them and deal with them, and one of the big ****** in my armor is feeling/being "ignored.' Not that "I'm not paying attention to you" ignored but the "You do not exist on this planet cold shoulder" kind of ignored. I have struggled with that for a long time...a LONG time. 

And what happened is that the mixture of him dealing with the grief in his own way, me not understanding what he was doing, and my own issues with feeling ignored made for a good environment for me to be weak. Then, enter Player OM who noticed the weakness and I fell. Yep it was me. Not my Dear Hubby. I'm an adulterer, and he is 100% not even involved in that decision. 

Soooo...can we lay this to rest now? Not ALL marriages are "bad" before an affair. I've literally seen thousands of affairs--since 1999--and most have some kind of issues brewing before the affair that would be easy enough to address if both parties were aware and willing to address them. Very often one or the other (or both) parties are not aware....and very often one or the other parties are not willing to address them! 

For example we were not AWARE of our differing ways of addressing grief. Now we ARE aware, and I know that even though I may temporarily feel that abandoned trigger, that it is temporary AND he will come out of his little shell with some time; likewise he knows that in his shell or not, he doesn't have to talk but a hug does me a world of good in dealing with grief. So see? We are AWARE and we did something about it. Before all this occurred we did not know that AND in the middle of a grieving period, you don't think to self-analyze. You just GRIEVE. 

Soooo...again. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse and has no personal issues...and the other spouse is a person who just is cruel and was playing them all along and hid it. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse...and the other spouse has personal issues that they THOUGHT they had addressed and a perfect storm comes along and triggers bad reactions. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse and the other spouse has addictions or mental illness that they had stuffed down, avoided, or pretended didn't exist and it boils to the surface. And USUALLY (maybe 75% of the time) both spouses are okay people, neither is perfect, they focus so much on "kids" and "bills" they forget to focus on being a loving human being to their spouse, they want their spouse to love THEM but don't stop to think that means they need to also love their spouse, and they let their marriage get weak. Along comes a Player or a temptation, and due to the weakness, one spouse crosses a thousand little lines in the sand and commits adultery.

Now...can we be done?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, you seem to be a good guy, but you have to stop believing in myths. There is no such thing as infidelity without a cause.


But the problem is that there never seems to be a cause that the BS can accept as a cause.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> They don't reform. It's a fundamental character flaw that they have no integrity. They can't figure out how to gain integrity when they have none. Think about it. They're willing to betray and lie to the person who is closest to them on this planet. Anyone who would do that is probably 99.999% unsavable. I left a .001% chance of them saving themselves because I'm an optimist. LOL


Stick around KK, you are apt to meet more than one WS who has successfully reconciled.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Would you believe that for some, it takes an enormous amount of effort to cheat and for others, very little?
> 
> Would you believe that for some, they would rather commit a crime than betray themselves by cheating?
> 
> ...


I have no idea what you are arguing about. You say "reasons" I say "causes" it means the same thing. I also do not agree with your definition of cheating. Cheating is, IMO, romantic or sexual activities outside of the relationship, without the knowledge or approval of the other person in the relationship. There is cheating in marriages or any other type of relationship, but there isn't cheating in open marriages or FWB relationships. It is the deceit which makes it cheating, not the act itself.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> So now you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Ok, I'm done with this.


No Wolf didn't put words in your mouth. Here's one example. 



Thundarr said:


> What we have hear is a failure to communicate. Here's some common ground
> - Cheating is wrong.
> - Usually there were problems before the temptation that lead to infidelity but sometimes there was not.
> - Almost always there were signs before infidelity. Both the WS and the BS rationalize to avoid seeing it as possible though.
> ...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> Well, of course you were talking about me,


Nope. I was talking about whatever group of waywards that seem to like to report even the most petty crap.




> that's the very subject we discussed in our pm's.


First off, you do realize PMs are not supposed to be made public. Not that I would, but it is a reportable offense.

Secondly, no, what was discussed does not indicate that I am talking about you. I have my suspicions, and I'll leave it at that.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, I have NEVER, in thought , word ,or, deed contended that forcible sex was cheating. You say that I said it, show me the post where I did.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's a harsh truth my friend. And I can't say that you're wrong on any count. For men and women who reconcile and the WS who reform from their own affair I do wonder if it will last. My x, the reformed lol, made it 14 years without and then decide it was time to play. I had a male friend once who also pushed good people out of his life with nonsense because of his childhood abandonment issues. Couldn't have people too close and couldn't settle in happiness.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear from WS who owned, reformed, reconciled only to turn and do it again years later. I don't know what the statistic on that would be but my guess is high without some heavy individual counseling to understand what is making them capable of doing these things?


Two points. We have only the present and the past. The future might indeed give us the result you list. It might also give us some who claim that they'd never marry a cheater who ended up marrying a cheater. And some of our most adamant cheater-haters might even change their minds.

The other point is that this board and others like it see only a very small and self-selected population. Most folks with marriage difficulties never come here. We have no idea what fraction of marriages in trouble because of cheating result in reconciliation of one sort or another. Why would folks in such a marriage come here to talk about it?

Folks who want to talk about their marriage problems with a bunch of strangers are a self-selected group with problems and tendencies of their own. Many of them feel that they did nothing to push their marriage into crisis. Only rarely do we get one that right out admits a role in the impending failure of their marriage. And we do our best to insist that the BS had no role whatsoever in the marriage difficulties.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I NEVER, EVER said that the cause was always valid, or even a little bit valid. I said that it exists, and we should try to find out what it is. Nothing more than that.





ConanHub said:


> Gotcha. I think your saying that if one spouse becomes a cheater then the marriage wasn't that good because of the cheater's cheating? Not necessarily because the BS was making it a bad marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





GusPolinski said:


> Having a spouse w/ a perpetual desire for infidelity makes for one of THE archetypal bad marriages. But that doesn't mean that it was bad because of YOU, Wolf.
> 
> And just because it wasn't bad (at least as far as you knew) prior to your discovery of her affairs doesn't mean that it wasn't bad.



Damn it! Gus beat me with his wall photo.  I wanted to say:

*Ding, Ding, Ding, winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!!*

I don't think that you guys fundamentally disagree with one another at all. You're just wording it differently. I think that what rookie has been trying to say all along, is that the problem in the marriage may very well be that one of the two spouses may not have the ability to be in a committed, long-term, monogamous relationship. One might have unresolved FOO issues, one may have an undiagnosed personality disorder, that had not previously reared its ugly head, etc. It might be that the only significant problem, in the pre-A marriage, is that one spouse has significant issues, that could eventually result in infidelity, that the other spouse knows nothing about. 

Therefore, I think rookie's position is that even though a BS may not have known of the WS's problems, and they may not have contributed to the problems, that their marriage was never really as solid as the BS believed it to be.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> First, let me just say right now that this thread has gotten WAY off course because people would rather argue. That's one thing I greatly dislike about TAM. Stay on the darn topic and if you want to disagree with someone, state your case ONCE and then just say "I disagree with you." The End. People are allowed to not have the same opinion as you!
> 
> Second, I can answer this question. I was a former WS. My Dear Hubby and I did have a "good marriage" before my affair. We were compatible, we had similar goals and dreams and values, we had similar lifestyles and sense of humor, we enjoyed similar recreation, our intelligence was similar, we had supportive spiritual lives, and financially we agreed on the amount of money to earn and how to spend it. I did not disagree with the man and I did not hate him. I actually like him a LOT and very much wanted to be loved by him.
> 
> ...


I respect you, but I disagree with you. You state that you had a good marriage, then spend several paragraphs explaining the issues that caused the affair (incidentally, what I've been saying all along) so your marriage was not so good after all, was it? My points are 1. If there is infidelity in a marriage, it is not a good marriage. 2. There are always causes or reasons for infidelity. 3. A marriage might be good before cheating and it might be good after cheating. But during the lead up to, during and aftermath of, cheating, it is not good. Pretty much all common sense ideas.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Good for you for trying this. My comments are bolded.



cpacan said:


> So let me see if I get this cause and effect thing right, since you insist that it's the correct way to analyze it.
> 
> Situation:
> Wife in either bad marriage or good marriage. If good marriage then proceed directly to step 3.
> ...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> *I have no idea what you are arguing about.* You say "reasons" I say "causes" it means the same thing. I also do not agree with your definition of cheating. Cheating is, IMO, romantic or sexual activities outside of the relationship, without the knowledge or approval of the other person in the relationship. There is cheating in marriages or any other type of relationship, but there isn't cheating in open marriages or FWB relationships. It is the deceit which makes it cheating, not the act itself.


No, you really don't. Do you? I'm sorry. 

An open marriage is not a marriage, it's a friends with benefits situation. Marriage requires vows which are specific concerning commitment and fidelity. When those vows, whether to some higher power, your partner, or yourself are broken, it's not really a marriage. It's infidelity/cheating/adultery, depending on your personal beliefs. 

You speak from both sides of your mouth. It is disturbing for many, including me. I try not to read your posts for that reason. Sometimes, I comment, realizing others might want to see other perspectives and choose for themselves which path to follow. 

Arguing, in today's understanding, usually means heated debate and I imagine many think it means an attempt to force others to believe something different than they do now. I believe it does not have to include the anger or the force.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> *Soooo...can we lay this to rest now?* Not ALL marriages are "bad" before an affair.





> Soooo...again. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse and has no personal issues...and the other spouse is a person who just is cruel and was playing them all along and hid it. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse...and the other spouse has personal issues that they THOUGHT they had addressed and a perfect storm comes along and triggers bad reactions. Sometimes (fairly rarely but it does occur) one spouse is a good spouse and the other spouse has addictions or mental illness that they had stuffed down, avoided, or pretended didn't exist and it boils to the surface. And USUALLY (maybe 75% of the time) both spouses are okay people, neither is perfect, they focus so much on "kids" and "bills" they forget to focus on being a loving human being to their spouse, they want their spouse to love THEM but don't stop to think that means they need to also love their spouse, and they let their marriage get weak. Along comes a Player or a temptation, and due to the weakness, one spouse crosses a thousand little lines in the sand and commits adultery


Coming from you, this should satisfy. But I doubt it will.

Good post by the way.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> But the problem is that there never seems to be a cause that the BS can accept as a cause.


Wrong. Affaircare laid it out nicely and I agree.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> That's some pretty bold talk for someone that didn't reply to my last PM...




Oops! 

I'll get right on that, Gus, just as soon and B1 and I, our special needs son, and whichever of our other kids decide to go with us, get back from dinner this evening. Our s/n son is craving Outback, so we're going to dinner, and then he's spending the night. This probably won't be B1's favorite kind of Friday night.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> No story was what I lived. If a marriage is good they, the people in it, compliment each other and each other's weaknesses. They present a stronger front together then apart. She did this for me I did this for her but unfortunately her problems were more than I could personally fix.
> 
> So are you now going to answer my question. If a bad marriage is the only thing that is required for a person to cheat, and by your logic I had a bad marriage because my x wife cheated then why didn't I?


In time you might have. You were obviously aware of her problems.

And did you ever ask her why she cheated? If so, what did she say and did you believe her?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I NEVER, EVER said that the cause was always valid, or even a little bit valid. I said that it exists, and we should try to find out what it is. Nothing more than that.


The cause may seem invalid to the BS and valid to the WS. That's the problem.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EI said:


> Oops!
> 
> I'll get right on that, Gus, just as soon and B1 and I, our special needs son, and whichever of our other kids decide to go with us, get back from dinner this evening. Our s/n son is craving Outback, so we're going to dinner, and then he's spending the night. This probably won't be B1's favorite kind of Friday night.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Treating the symptoms of infidelity is important, but it isn't all that is important. Treating the CAUSES is also important.


There are three options: treat them before infidelity occurs. This requires communication, hard work, and a willingness to see things from the other person's point of view.

Another option is to treat them after the infidelity is discovered or admitted. This is usually called "reconciliation". Both parties have to want this and both parties have hard jobs ahead of them. This is the hardest choice.

The last option is to divorce and then later speculate with friends (or perhaps a new spouse) why the divorce happened. This is the easiest choice, which helps explain its popularity.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I respect you, but I disagree with you. *You state that you had a good marriage, then spend several paragraphs explaining the issues that caused the affair (incidentally, what I've been saying all along) so your marriage was not so good after all*, was it? My points are 1. If there is infidelity in a marriage, it is not a good marriage. 2. There are always causes or reasons for infidelity. 3. *A marriage might be good before cheating and it might be good after cheating. But during the lead up to, during and aftermath of, cheating, it is not good. Pretty much all common sense ideas.*


And this time period, for whatever length of time that may be, forever taints the entire marriage and makes it not good thereafter (won't say bad, but just not good)? So...in essence one factor within the marriage can taint the entire thing and label it as not good. The old one rotten apple spoils the barrel concept, right?

Does this hold true in everything the same way? For instance, I thought I had a good life prior to marriage and might have a good life again post divorce (this has yet to be seen), but since my marriage was bad (my wife said I was the reason it failed as I was bad to her, she is the cheater and this is not true but is her story) and this caused me pain and my life to be bad, then my life is also not good by your reasoning. Am I missing something here, as that one portion of my life is bad therefor my entire life must be bad. Got it now.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> First, let me just say right now that this thread has gotten WAY off course because people would rather argue. That's one thing I greatly dislike about TAM. Stay on the darn topic and if you want to disagree with someone, state your case ONCE and then just say "I disagree with you." The End. People are allowed to not have the same opinion as you!
> 
> Second, I can answer this question. I was a former WS. My Dear Hubby and I did have a "good marriage" before my affair. We were compatible, we had similar goals and dreams and values, we had similar lifestyles and sense of humor, we enjoyed similar recreation, our intelligence was similar, we had supportive spiritual lives, and financially we agreed on the amount of money to earn and how to spend it. I did not disagree with the man and I did not hate him. I actually like him a LOT and very much wanted to be loved by him.
> 
> ...


All but one are on the same page here and yes we all do agree. Thank you for sharing. I guess my story counted less cause I'm just the BS but it's certainly helpful to hear both WS and BS have the come at this from all angles


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, I have NEVER, in thought , word ,or, deed contended that forcible sex was cheating. You say that I said it, show me the post where I did.


Rookie,

I think this was meant for me? I did not say forcible sex, as in rape. What you contend is that someone can be forced or caused to have sex with someone other than their spouse. Rape is rape. I'm not talking about rape. Not sure where you got that? Maybe it's a false assumption? Maybe you are just trying to escalate, I don't know. It's normal practice here, when someone disagrees. I can't speak much for other forums.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> But the problem is that there never seems to be a cause that the BS can accept as a cause.


Negative but nice try. I also accepted the cause of her infidelity. It just wasn't me and wasn't the state of our marriage, it was her and her childhood trauma


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Since he didn't want to answer it, I will.
> 
> If marriage is bad for both spouses and only one cheats, then the difference is.....*drumroll*......character.


Not at all. It would be strange if the situation was symmetric.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> It still isn't always the case. If one spouse has some condition that existed prior to the M and has been undiagnosed or treated and they cheat due to this condition, it is no reflection on the state (good or bad) of the M. The M shouldn't be judged as such based upon this possibility. That is wolf is saying I believe.
> 
> Say one spouse has a sexual or drug addiction and has hidden it during the, since left untreated, it has finally come to a head and they can't control it anymore and because of this addiction they cheat on the other spouse to feed/ satisfy their addiction. After the cheating they now have a bad M (this we can all agree on), but before the cheating the M might have been perfectly fine (not to be read to mean perfect). Does the CS's actions based upon their hide addiction mean that the M was bad? I would say no, and that this is an example of such situations were infidelity occurs in good Ms.


But I would say that the marriage was bad. The spouse with the problem is not marriage material. Not everyone is. And one thing wrong in our society is that we do not equip the young with the tools to decide if a marriage partner is going to work out.

In part that's due to the fact that we don't understand people and motivation very well. But addictive personalities are addictive personalities although the actual addiction varies from person to person.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't make anybody grovel like a dog. Why to satisfy the BS desire to punish, or to re establish their self esteem at the expense of another? I don't believe that any reputable counselor or infidelity website advocates submissive behavior on the part of the WS. Not even the Harley's. Just restitution and honest actions are what most , if not all of them call for.


I don't want anyone to grovel like a dog either. I want them to stop behaving like a mongrel, stand bravely and face the truth of what they did and who they became while taking total ownership of their infidelity so that they can move past it knowing what they need to turn away from.

I am for ruthless truth not useless bashing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

> Originally Posted by EI ￼
> P.S. vellocet, remember the pm that you sent to me a week or so ago? If you recall, I responded, and you responded back. Then, I responded to your response, clarifying the concerns you had in your 2nd pm. But, for whatever reason, you chose not to read my 2nd response. (I know this because I always ask for a read receipt.) I don't think it's very polite to send a pm and then refuse to read the answer.





GusPolinski said:


> That's some pretty bold talk for someone that didn't reply to my last PM...


Hey, we all miss PM's from time to time.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> But I would say that the marriage was bad. The spouse with the problem is not marriage material. Not everyone is. And one thing wrong in our society is that we do not equip the young with the tools to decide if a marriage partner is going to work out.
> 
> In part that's due to the fact that we don't understand people and motivation very well. But addictive personalities are addictive personalities although the actual addiction varies from person to person.


So even though everything was good by everyone's standards up to the A, the A changes everything and all now becomes a bad marriage? Not buying it. I don't think that one issue makes everything prior to that point something different than it was. If you play a sport and win everything you attempt until one day you lose, does that forever label you a loser and all prior achievements are overlooked?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> This comes down to perception vs. fact.
> 
> After all, the marriage could have been good -- and from the perspective of both the BS _and_ the WS -- up until the point at which the infidelity began.
> 
> ...


But then we come down to the need to know why the WS cheated. There have been threads about this with a number of WS's responding. As I recall, in general their reasons were not accepted as "reasonable".


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.


Huh?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> In time you might have. You were obviously aware of her problems.
> 
> And did you ever ask her why she cheated? If so, what did she say and did you believe her?


Yes and this was already covered but to be more direct as part of MY therapy In dealing with what happend my therapist asked me to reach out to my soon to be x and ask her the questions that were haunting me. At first I thought she was nuts and my x would never agree but I was surprised that she said yes. She did not want to meet with my therapist which was fine and understandable. So we met at my house. I asked my series of questions and she answered. The most obvious was why did you do this, why didn't you talk to me first.

Keep in mind she was also now in therapy dealing with her own issues.

So she said she in the last couple of months she felt at ease with us. That she felt settled in life and with the death of her dad suddenly it came unraveled. She said, and we did, speak about that issue while married but the uneasy feeling about how she was comfortable in life was hard to ignore. In comes Mr affair partner. They started working, then Talking, then sharing. She told me it wasn't that she loved him but rather found him a huge distraction and exciting. She knew the affair was wrong but did it anyway. She says she just thought it would be a temporary thing but Wasn't. For start to finish we are taking about 2 months now.

And yes I know she was telling the truth. I have known her since 14 and know when she is lying and she wasnt no matter how hard rookie wants to believe that it's not the case.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> As a former BS I couldn't give two sh*ts what cheaters and cheater apologists think. They were wrong. They are the destroyers of families. They broke the most sacred commitment human beings can make. Until they'll admit that then they're hopeless.


Just don't make the same mistakes in your next marriage.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Not at all. It would be strange if the situation was symmetric.


Then what is the difference between the two people then where one decides to cheat and the other doesn't?


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

KingwoodKev said:


> Reliving that would be soul crushing. A person who was the kindest, most honest, loving, caring, smart, funny person you've ever known, a person who was your soulmate, who had been through tough times and good times, who had mothered your children, decides she wants some more excitement and forbidden fruit so she destroys multiple lives in the process. In the end even finds out that to the OM she was just a piece of ass and he had no plans on breaking up his own family. Well, that is, until I informed his wife.
> 
> OMW and I actually became close friends. No romance because neither one of us are scumbags like the cheaters but we formed our own 2 person support group. She took the cheating hubby for everything he has and he lives in another state with his parents. In his 40's and lives with his parents. As for my ex she lives alone and is acquiring cats I hear. None of her former family, including the teenage and adult children, want anything to do with her. I hope it was worth it to her.


Did she ever tell you why she wanted "more excitement and forbidden fruit"? What we are arguing about here really are the reasons.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> First, let me just say right now that this thread has gotten WAY off course because people would rather argue. That's one thing I greatly dislike about TAM. Stay on the darn topic and if you want to disagree with someone, state your case ONCE and then just say "I disagree with you." The End. People are allowed to not have the same opinion as you!
> 
> Second, I can answer this question. I was a former WS. My Dear Hubby and I did have a "good marriage" before my affair. We were compatible, we had similar goals and dreams and values, we had similar lifestyles and sense of humor, we enjoyed similar recreation, our intelligence was similar, we had supportive spiritual lives, and financially we agreed on the amount of money to earn and how to spend it. I did not disagree with the man and I did not hate him. I actually like him a LOT and very much wanted to be loved by him.
> 
> ...


Not quite. I want to praise you for writing and posting this. Folks who want to understand how infidelity comes about should read and reread this.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Wrong. Affaircare laid it out nicely and I agree.



Not wrong. Affaircare did lay it out well. I read that post about half an hour after I'd written my post.

Don't forget the lag.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Just don't make the same mistakes in your next marriage.


And who said nobody here blames the BS for the cheating.

I know I know, you'll say that's not what you were doing.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Since he didn't want to answer it, I will.
> 
> If marriage is bad for both spouses and only one cheats, then the difference is.....*drumroll*......character.


I will not argue that the cheating defines the character of the cheater, at least for duration of the cheating, and more often than not, beyond. 

*Buuuuuut,* it has to be acknowledged that the lack of character that defines the cheater, does not automatically equate to good character in every single BS. 

WS has bad character ***does not equal*** BS has good character. While the BS may not have ever been a cheater, they may have been something that was equally, or even more, destructive to the marriage. Sometimes, they're not, but sometimes they are. In which case, any talk of groveling and holding the moral high ground can become extremely subjective.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Not wrong. Affaircare did lay it out well. I read that post about half an hour after I'd written my post.
> 
> Don't forget the lag.


Oh, so you mean if you had read AC's post prior, that you wouldn't have made your comment?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Then what is the difference between the two people then where one decides to cheat and the other doesn't?





sidney2718 said:


> Just don't make the same mistakes in your next marriage.


I don't think he believes women are capable of another response to an unsatisfactory marriage than infidelity.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> I will not argue that the cheating defines the character of the cheater, at least for duration of the cheating, and more often than not, beyond.
> 
> *Buuuuuut,* it has to be acknowledged that the lack of character that defines the cheater, does not automatically equate to good character in every single BS.


Didn't say it does. I said character is the difference between one spouse that does cheat, and the one that doesn't.




> WS has bad character ***does not equal*** BS has good character. While the BS may not have ever been a cheater, they *may have *been something that was equally, or even more, destructive to the marriage. Sometimes, they're not, but sometimes they are.


I completely agree.




> In which case, any talk of groveling and holding the moral high ground, can become extremely subjective.


Depends on the situation. While not blaming the WS's cheating on such, lets say the BS is abusive, mentally or physically, then neither can claim a moral high ground.

But lets say the BS's biggest crime was being a little laissez faire in the marriage, then I'd say they are on a higher moral ground than the spouse that went out and spread 'em for other men, or stuck his member in other women.

But you did mention about the BS doing something equally as bad in a moral sense, so point taken, and I agree.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Not wrong. Affaircare did lay it out well. I read that post about half an hour after I'd written my post.
> 
> Don't forget the lag.


Still wrong. Just like it doesn't matter how the marriage was before someone cheated it still becomes wrong. It was wrong before your read the post so it is still wrong. Or maybe you just weren't "being right" material, like the spouse that was great until their addictions couldn't be suppressed, controlled, or hidden any longer? 

Funny how that same logic only seems to work in the case of marriage huh and fails in every other instance (or so I am told)?


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sidney2718 said:


> But the problem is that there never seems to be a cause that the BS can accept as a cause.


That's because hearing that your spouse cheated is like hearing that you are fired. 

The first words that come out of your mouth are "BUT WHY!!!???" and even if your employer were to list 3 good reasons why they fired you, you aren't going to say, "Oh that's a good point. You're right I should be fired." And you're not going to say that because TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why you should be fired! 

Very similar for cheating. Eventually the WS may figure out "here's what occurred beforehand that sort of lead to it" but TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why they cheated.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> That's because hearing that your spouse cheated is like hearing that you are fired.
> 
> The first words that come out of your mouth are "BUT WHY!!!???" and even if your employer were to list 3 good reasons why they fired you, you aren't going to say, "Oh that's a good point. You're right I should be fired." And you're not going to say that because TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why you should be fired!
> 
> Very similar for cheating. Eventually the WS may figure out "here's what occurred beforehand that sort of lead to it" but TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why they cheated.


Bad analogy. It would be more like saying, "I am divorcing you because of these reasons". Divorce and getting fired would seem more equal.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Negative but nice try. I also accepted the cause of her infidelity. It just wasn't me and wasn't the state of our marriage, it was her and her childhood trauma


I believe you. I've never said that the BS was always at fault. I am saying that in many cases the behavior of the BS has been a contributory factor.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> So even though everything was good by everyone's standards up to the A, the A changes everything and all now becomes a bad marriage? Not buying it. I don't think that one issue makes everything prior to that point something different than it was. If you play a sport and win everything you attempt until one day you lose, does that forever label you a loser and all prior achievements are overlooked?


I thought you were arguing that, due to pre-existing problems, the wife was predisposed to cheat. I responded that pre-existing problems mean that that person cannot be part of a "good marriage". 

I actually agree with what you wrote above.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes and this was already covered but to be more direct as part of MY therapy In dealing with what happend my therapist asked me to reach out to my soon to be x and ask her the questions that were haunting me. At first I thought she was nuts and my x would never agree but I was surprised that she said yes. She did not want to meet with my therapist which was fine and understandable. So we met at my house. I asked my series of questions and she answered. The most obvious was why did you do this, why didn't you talk to me first.
> 
> Keep in mind she was also now in therapy dealing with her own issues.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate it. Her story coincides with the sort of thing that I hear with some regularity.

I hope you tried reconciliation. It sounds like the marriage was salvageable. I'm sorry it didn't work out.

In my experience most affairs start with the expectation that they will be short and never discovered. And in my experience, most are short and aren't discovered.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Then what is the difference between the two people then where one decides to cheat and the other doesn't?


Of course there is a difference. But let me rephrase that. The husband regularly beats his wife, throws her on the bed, and has his way with her. There is no infidelity so far. if asked, he says that they have a great marriage and she nods in agreement.

The next week, the guy she's been talking to at work hears her story, puts his arms around her and comforts her as she cries. One thing leads to another and they have sex. Now there has been infidelity.

And of course she's the cheater. She's evil. She deserves anything that her husband gives her and has no complaint. And they have a successful reconciliation because after she gets out of the hospital (she fell down a lot in the next few days) she agrees with whatever he says.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

vellocet said:


> And who said nobody here blames the BS for the cheating.
> 
> I know I know, you'll say that's not what you were doing.


All I meant was that he should be careful about marrying flawed women.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> That's because hearing that your spouse cheated is like hearing that you are fired.
> 
> The first words that come out of your mouth are "BUT WHY!!!???" and even if your employer were to list 3 good reasons why they fired you, you aren't going to say, "Oh that's a good point. You're right I should be fired." And you're not going to say that because TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why you should be fired!
> 
> Very similar for cheating. Eventually the WS may figure out "here's what occurred beforehand that sort of lead to it" but TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why they cheated.


I fully agree! You have put it very very well!

The relationship to TAM is that whenever someone comes here with a problem, the odds are that they are going to get jumped by the folks who claim that the WS is evil incarnate and the BS played no role in the disintegration of the marriage.

The discussion about this has occurred in many threads here and will possibly never end. In fact the truth you pointed out means that such discussions are pointless. There are two general groups here and they will never convince each other.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> I believe you. I've never said that the BS was always at fault. I am saying that in many cases the behavior of the BS has been a contributory factor.


And I have no issue with that so long as we say that the BS may contribute to a bad marriage. but cheating is act of WS alone


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Of course there is a difference. But let me rephrase that. The husband regularly beats his wife, throws her on the bed, and has his way with her. There is no infidelity so far. if asked, he says that they have a great marriage and she nods in agreement.
> 
> The next week, the guy she's been talking to at work hears her story, puts his arms around her and comforts her as she cries. One thing leads to another and they have sex. Now there has been infidelity.
> 
> And of course she's the cheater. She's evil. She deserves anything that her husband gives her and has no complaint. And they have a successful reconciliation because after she gets out of the hospital (she fell down a lot in the next few days) she agrees with whatever he says.


Dude, you really are sick. This made me nauseous. Do you know anyone like this in real life or did you watch a movie? I knew one person who was something like this in all of my life. He wasn't a friend or relative. I can't be sure of exactly what went on at his house, but I know it was far from good. 

I can't remember if she cheated or not. I know it's not advisable in many cases, to let that happen, but I cannot understand how a woman who was treated that way, could bring herself to have sex with someone who talks with her once and sympathizes with her? 

I guess it would have to have been an ongoing EA for her to feel safe enough with any man? I think she would have to be really encouraged by close friends, family, and authority figures to let that happen. I don't know. It makes my stomach turn.

In any case, I can't imagine that's a common scenario. I can see it happening in some less violent situations, maybe. I know it does happen.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> Thank you. I appreciate it. Her story coincides with the sort of thing that I hear with some regularity.
> 
> I hope you tried reconciliation. It sounds like the marriage was salvageable. I'm sorry it didn't work out.
> 
> In my experience most affairs start with the expectation that they will be short and never discovered. And in my experience, most are short and aren't discovered.


No reconciliation. Cheating is the one absoulte deal breaker with me and for a lot of reasons. Honestly she knew that and knew it was the only way I would detach from her permanently. It was hands down the best way to destroy our marriage other than her hitting our kids. She wasn't dumb at all


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

KingwoodKev said:


> I have plenty of advice for WS's. First, and foremost admit what you did, 100% of it, and admit who you are. Until you say openly that you are a person of zero integrity and truly humble yourself before those who you've wronged, you have zero chance of redeeming yourself as a human being. No excuses, no projections, no blame transference.


I admitted everything I did, 100% of it. That was the subject of my first thread on TAM. I said that my husband wanted all of the details and I asked if that was actually the best thing for him. Not just the facts, but every single detail. The response from TAM was a resounding "Tell him everything he wants to know, in as much detail as he wants, as many times as he asks, for as long as he needs me to." The next day, I confessed to the full extent of my affair. On May 27th, we will be 3 years post D-Day. At that point, we began the long process of unraveling every single detail of my A. 

My husband and I have both humbled ourselves before one another. We approached one another with compassion, mercy, and understanding. We chose that approach before either of us even knew whether or not we wanted to attempt to reconcile our marriage. I did not have an expectation of reconciliation, as I had no intention of reconciling. I had reconciled myself to the fact that our marriage was over before my affair ever began.

I've also gone to great lengths to humble myself and make amends to our children, as well as our extended family. This is something I will continue doing for as long as I live. 

What I will never say, openly or privately, is that I have zero integrity. That is not correct, nor has it ever been. As far as your assumption about how that affects my chance of redeeming myself, I think that my loved ones are the only people who are in a position to decide if I'm worthy of redemption. My Lord, my husband, my children, and my family have already made their decision. I, too, chose to give my husband the same gift, because he needed to be forgiven, as well.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I fully agree! You have put it very very well!
> 
> The relationship to TAM is that whenever someone comes here with a problem, the odds are that they are going to get jumped by the folks who claim that the WS is evil incarnate and the BS played no role in the disintegration of the marriage.
> 
> The discussion about this has occurred in many threads here and will possibly never end. In fact the truth you pointed out means that such discussions are pointless. There are two general groups here and they will never convince each other.


Most of this post has absolutely nothing to do with the message she was trying to send.

WS isn't evil incarnate. They chose to cheat instead of a number of other choices. That is acceptable when? When it is deemed as punishment? Wouldn't real consequences be divorce and all that comes with it? 

I don't call someone getting fired a problem for the company. It's a solution. How is infidelity a solution for the WS, the BS and the problems in the marriage?


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> That's because hearing that your spouse cheated is like hearing that you are fired.
> 
> The first words that come out of your mouth are "BUT WHY!!!???" and even if your employer were to list 3 good reasons why they fired you, you aren't going to say, "Oh that's a good point. You're right I should be fired." And you're not going to say that because TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why you should be fired!
> 
> Very similar for cheating. Eventually the WS may figure out "here's what occurred beforehand that sort of lead to it" but TO YOU there isn't going to be a good "reason" why they cheated.


Disagree 100%. While the WS may not have been responsible for the crisis that life brought, they are 100% responsible for their "weakness" (poor character) and lack of boundaries. You may go through an entire life without your character being tested. Character like courage is what's most important during the terrible moments. I agree there are BS with poor character, but people with poor character will not cheat if they maintain proper boundaries. The WS credo: "I didn't know I needed boundaries until I was on the other side of betrayal".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I think I agree with you, but with some added examples for clarity. It's not always black and white.. But how I oh so wish it were sometimes.
> There are three options: treat them before infidelity occurs. This requires communication, hard work, and a willingness to see things from the other person's point of view.This only works if BOTH parties are willing to see the problem for what it is and don't rug sweep (as both my Ex and I did, unfortunately)-ETA: I didn't realize I was rugsweeping at the time. I thought I was helping to "fix" the issues, and once I thought the situation had been dealt with, I naively went back to my "normal" life. My crime was being OK with my version of "normal"
> 
> Another option is to treat them after the infidelity is discovered or admitted. This is usually called "reconciliation". Both parties have to want this and both parties have hard jobs ahead of them. This is the hardest choice.Agreed, this takes both parties to come together and want to take this hard route. My Ex did not after she chose her cheating path
> ...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> There are three options: treat them before infidelity occurs. This requires communication, hard work, and a willingness to see things from the other person's point of view.
> 
> Another option is to treat them after the infidelity is discovered or admitted. This is usually called "reconciliation". Both parties have to want this and both parties have hard jobs ahead of them. This is the hardest choice.
> 
> The last option is to divorce and then later speculate with friends (or perhaps a new spouse) why the divorce happened. This is the easiest choice, which helps explain its popularity.


It seems as though you are saying infidelity is not such a big deal. It's just another one of those things that happens in married life when things get tough. I personally believe that once infidelity occurs, there is no turning back. It's time to divorce, because the WS has proven they cannot be trusted. If it was acceptable once, it will become acceptable again, if it ever really stopped. Remember, WS get better as they are caught. They learn improved ways to keep from being discovered. It's a never ending cycle and if anyone thinks it isn't, you've got a surprise coming when you get old. Many things come out when a person is in no position to challenge anything. 

However, I am beginning to believe that it is possible to reconcile, if the BS has his/her own affair. Many couples here have done so. If those affairs are ongoing for both spouses, there is really nothing to complain about, unless one is getting more than the other, and s/he finds out.


----------



## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

EI said:


> I admitted everything I did, 100% of it. That was the subject of my first thread on TAM. I said that my husband wanted all of the details and I asked if that was actually the best thing for him. Not just the facts, but every single detail. The response from TAM was a resounding "Tell him everything he wants to know, in as much detail as he wants, as many times as he asks, for as long as he needs me to." The next day, I confessed to the full extent of my affair. On May 27th, we will be 3 years post D-Day. At that point, we began the long process of unraveling every single detail of my A.
> 
> My husband and I have both humbled ourselves before one another. We approached one another with compassion, mercy, and understanding. We chose that approach before either of us even knew whether or not we wanted to attempt to reconcile our marriage. I did not have an expectation of reconciliation, as I had no intention of reconciling. I had reconciled myself to the fact that our marriage was over before my affair ever began.
> 
> ...


To be honest I think you have a real chance. I've been asked before why every little detail should be brought out in the light of day. It's because if it isn't then the BS's mind is free to imagine the worst. Maybe even worse than it was. You do have to admit to yourself, your loved ones, and God if you're a believer that you are a cheater. Once you join that club it's a lifetime membership. It's like being an addict. You can quit using but you'll always be an addict. If you humbled yourself that is also very important. Cheating is something that is owned 100% by the cheater. If the cheater is not willing to admit that then it won't last. I really do hope you make it. I hate when love goes bad. I can't believe any human being could violate that sacred trust. The most sacred commitment that can be made between two human beings.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> No, you really don't. Do you? I'm sorry.
> 
> An open marriage is not a marriage, it's a friends with benefits situation. Marriage requires vows which are specific concerning commitment and fidelity. When those vows, whether to some higher power, your partner, or yourself are broken, it's not really a marriage. It's infidelity/cheating/adultery, depending on your personal beliefs.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ, those in open marriages see their lifestyle as just as valid as yours or any other monogamous relationship. How can there be cheating if there is agreement and no deceit?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> The cause may seem invalid to the BS and valid to the WS. That's the problem.


Of course it is. You are right.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> And this time period, for whatever length of time that may be, forever taints the entire marriage and makes it not good thereafter (won't say bad, but just not good)? So...in essence one factor within the marriage can taint the entire thing and label it as not good. The old one rotten apple spoils the barrel concept, right?
> 
> Does this hold true in everything the same way? For instance, I thought I had a good life prior to marriage and might have a good life again post divorce (this has yet to be seen), but since my marriage was bad (my wife said I was the reason it failed as I was bad to her, she is the cheater and this is not true but is her story) and this caused me pain and my life to be bad, then my life is also not good by your reasoning. Am I missing something here, as that one portion of my life is bad therefor my entire life must be bad. Got it now.


Nope, not at all. I NEVER said that his, yours or my marriages were always bad, however I will say that , at least in my opinion, the marriage will always be tainted by my wife's affair. Or any other bad thing that happened during it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I think this was meant for me? I did not say forcible sex, as in rape. What you contend is that someone can be forced or caused to have sex with someone other than their spouse. Rape is rape. I'm not talking about rape. Not sure where you got that? Maybe it's a false assumption? Maybe you are just trying to escalate, I don't know. It's normal practice here, when someone disagrees. I can't speak much for other forums.


Nope, once again you try to twist my words to suit yourself. I never, ever , said that.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> So even though everything was good by everyone's standards up to the A, the A changes everything and all now becomes a bad marriage? Not buying it. I don't think that one issue makes everything prior to that point something different than it was. If you play a sport and win everything you attempt until one day you lose, does that forever label you a loser and all prior achievements are overlooked?


No, it simply means that your sports record isn't all good. I played 50 HS football games, I lost 4, so, on the whole my record is good, except when it wasn't because of the losses.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Dude, you really are sick. This made me nauseous. Do you know anyone like this in real life or did you watch a movie? I knew one person who was something like this in all of my life. He wasn't a friend or relative. I can't be sure of exactly what went on at his house, but I know it was far from good.
> 
> I can't remember if she cheated or not. I know it's not advisable in many cases, to let that happen, but I cannot understand how a woman who was treated that way, could bring herself to have sex with someone who talks with her once and sympathizes with her?
> 
> ...


Not as unusual as you might think. I had an employee who regularly beat and raped his wife, and she was so afraid of him that it took several years for his abuse to be found out. But , of course he never cheated.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I happen to think that EI has a LOT of integrity.  I may not always agree with her, but I value her input as much (if not more) than almost any other poster. I feel much the same about Affaircare, and Regret and other FWS's who have braved the pages and pages of scorn, in order to be helpful. As a FBS, their stories have given me great insight into my wife's train of thought, and were a large part of my decision to attempt to reconcile. The fact that it did not work was due , not to the cheating , but to my loss of affection for my wife.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> No, it simply means that your sports record isn't all good. I played 50 HS football games, I lost 4, so, on the whole my record is good, except when it wasn't because of the losses.


Rookie,
You seem to be softening on your stance. From your previous stance it was marriages that have infidelity are bad. There was no grey area, "if the marriages were good, then infidelity wouldn't have occurred" has been your motto for ages. Now you are saying they are not good, then not all good. When people present other analogies using your logic then you change the outcome and your position. Applying your prior statements and logic, your school record would be bad as even one loss taints the whole record, since you wouldn't have lost if the team and record was good, so ergo your team and record is bad.

What is your stance these days?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I beg to differ, those in open marriages see their lifestyle as just as valid as yours or any other monogamous relationship. How can there be cheating if there is agreement and no deceit?


I didn't say it wasn't a valid lifestyle. Their vows of marriage make it cheating.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, once again you try to twist my words to suit yourself. I never, ever , said that.


It was for me? I don't have to twist your words. I just read them. You do enough twisting and swaying with the wind.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I didn't say it wasn't a valid lifestyle. Their vows of marriage make it cheating.


 In modern times, Marriage vows can say whatever you want them to say. You can use the church words or roll your own. Cheating implies deceit....no deceit....no cheating. I don't agree with swingers, but some of the couples have been at it a long time, and seem pretty stable.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Rookie,
> You seem to be softening on your stance. From your previous stance it was marriages that have infidelity are bad. There was no grey area, "if the marriages were good, then infidelity wouldn't have occurred" has been your motto for ages. Now you are saying they are not good, then not all good. When people present other analogies using your logic then you change the outcome and your position. Applying your prior statements and logic, your school record would be bad as even one loss taints the whole record, since you wouldn't have lost if the team and record was good, so ergo your team and record is bad.
> 
> What is your stance these days?


Nope, from the very first , I stated that the marriage could be good before the cheating and possibly after.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> It was for me? I don't have to twist your words. I just read them. You do enough twisting and swaying with the wind.


Whatever, dude. You said in you post that you don't like my posts. I think it would be a good idea if you didn't comment on them. Probably save yourself some aggravation. I don't care, either way.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By EI
> What I will never say, openly or privately, is that I have zero integrity. That is not correct, nor has it ever been. As far as your assumption about how that affects my chance of redeeming myself, I think that my loved ones are the only people who are in a position to decide if I'm worthy of redemption. My Lord, my husband, my children, and my family have already made their decision. I, too, chose to give my husband the same gift, because he needed to be forgiven, as well.


I usually think that a couple that has experienced betrayal can only get 80-90% of a great marriage. In EI and B1 case I think they have and will get higher than 90%. Here are a few reasons that I think that.

1	I love that EI does not grovel in the dirt and think that she has no integrity; she knows that she has value
2	She has been redeemed by her husband, her children, and her Lord; others do not matter as much.
3	EI has forgiven her husband
4	B1 is an OUTSTANDING BS!!
5	B1 and EI have worked real hard for almost 3 years and the results show
6	Both realize and admit that they both were the reason for the breakdown of the marriage
7	B1 and EI’s Lord is in the business of repairing broken lives and hearts; by the way, He is pretty good in that business and has great track record!

The title of this thread is Guiding Waywards. Although Tam may offer some guiding at times, EI has a great team that is guiding her. When you have a team on your side that includes the BS, the children, and God you have an all-star team. The fact that EI has taken so many positive actions makes that team the DREAM TEAM!

My advice for waywards? Find a wayward that has many years of success and do what they did.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Whatever, dude. You said in you post that you don't like my posts. I think it would be a good idea if you didn't comment on them. Probably save yourself some aggravation. I don't care, either way.


Maybe ignore would be best. I hope you can someday see that it was not your fault she cheated. It was her choice and there is nothing you could have done to stop her, once she made up her mind you were no longer a candidate for sex. Whatever happens after she decides that, is not your fault. You are not to blame for her decision to cheat, you might be fully to blame for her deciding you were not a candidate for sex. Usually, but not always, it's not the fault of one spouse. 

Good luck with your search for the truth. I do wish you peace and complete forgiveness and empathy for yourself. You should be most important in your life, whether married or not.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Most of this post has absolutely nothing to do with the message she was trying to send.
> 
> WS isn't evil incarnate. They chose to cheat instead of a number of other choices. That is acceptable when? When it is deemed as punishment? Wouldn't real consequences be divorce and all that comes with it?
> 
> I don't call someone getting fired a problem for the company. It's a solution. How is infidelity a solution for the WS, the BS and the problems in the marriage?


You've just chided me for thread jacking. But I will give you a short answer. They cheat when it seems the best solution for the problems they face.

Divorce isn't always financially or physically possible.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

TheGoodGuy said:


> x


Good guy: I agree with you.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> It seems as though you are saying infidelity is not such a big deal. It's just another one of those things that happens in married life when things get tough. I personally believe that once infidelity occurs, there is no turning back. It's time to divorce, because the WS has proven they cannot be trusted. If it was acceptable once, it will become acceptable again, if it ever really stopped. Remember, WS get better as they are caught. They learn improved ways to keep from being discovered. It's a never ending cycle and if anyone thinks it isn't, you've got a surprise coming when you get old. Many things come out when a person is in no position to challenge anything.
> 
> However, I am beginning to believe that it is possible to reconcile, if the BS has his/her own affair. Many couples here have done so. If those affairs are ongoing for both spouses, there is really nothing to complain about, unless one is getting more than the other, and s/he finds out.


No, I'm not saying that infidelity is no big deal. I am saying two other things. First, infidelity is common. We all know that. In any marriage in the US there seems to be at least a 30% chance that one of the married people will cheat. That makes infidelity common, not unusual.

Second, once there is infidelity there are only a few different things that can be done. One is to rugsweep it, another is to reconcile, and the third is to divorce. I'm NOT saying that any of these are easy but some are easier than others.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> I usually think that a couple that has experienced betrayal can only get 80-90% of a great marriage. In EI and B1 case I think they have and will get higher than 90%. Here are a few reasons that I think that.
> 
> 1	I love that EI does not grovel in the dirt and think that she has no integrity; she knows that she has value
> 2	She has been redeemed by her husband, her children, and her Lord; others do not matter as much.
> ...


A little compassion and understanding on both sides would do wonders.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> You've just chided me for thread jacking. But I will give you a short answer. They cheat when it seems the best solution for the problems they face.
> 
> Divorce isn't always financially or physically possible.


No, I've chided you for misinterpreting and telling a story that is based on inaccuracy. Twisting facts to suit your agenda and beliefs, which I wholly disagree with. 

They cheat when they want to cheat. The best solution is to work on the issues or divorce. Cheating only complicates things by adding layers of lying and removing all traces of the love that once was. It is an exclamation mark at the end of a period in a declarative sentence. 

Divorce is always possible. Always. 

What comes after may be hell to get through, but those issues can be addressed and changed. What you mean is they can't keep the lifestyle they are accustomed to after divorce. Well, duh. 

Learn some humility and maybe you can accept the consequences of your actions. Both of you, husband and wife.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Second, once there is infidelity there are only a few different things that can be done. One is to rugsweep it, another is to reconcile, and the third is to divorce. I'm NOT saying that any of these are easy but some are easier than others.


Rugsweep (false R) is the easiest at first but it doesn't fix anything so normally things only seem better for a while and then rinse and repeat. Divorce is the toughest one at first but it's the easiest over time. Reconciliation has to be the tough one over the long run for both BS and WS.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe ignore would be best. I hope you can someday see that it was not your fault she cheated. It was her choice and there is nothing you could have done to stop her, once she made up her mind you were no longer a candidate for sex. Whatever happens after she decides that, is not your fault. You are not to blame for her decision to cheat, you might be fully to blame for her deciding you were not a candidate for sex. Usually, but not always, it's not the fault of one spouse.
> 
> Good luck with your search for the truth. I do wish you peace and complete forgiveness and empathy for yourself. You should be most important in your life, whether married or not.


 IDK why it is that people continually try to put words in my mouth , that I do not say. I would really like somebody......anybody.... to show me where I EVER said that Sweetie's affair was my fault? I would almost pay money. Dude, you are so fixated about assigning blame that you can see nothing else. I'm really sorry you feel that way. So yes, you can ignore or not....your choice.


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> No, I've chided you for misinterpreting and telling a story that is based on inaccuracy. Twisting facts to suit your agenda and beliefs, which I wholly disagree with.
> 
> They cheat when they want to cheat. The best solution is to work on the issues or divorce. Cheating only complicates things by adding layers of lying and removing all traces of the love that once was. It is an exclamation mark at the end of a period in a declarative sentence.
> 
> ...


I suspect that you've never been a cheater, but have you had a heart to heart talk with any of them?

As for me, I've spoken to a fair number of "cheaters". And I've been married for over 55 years, all to the same woman. And as far as I know, she's never cheated on me.

So yes, I feel that I do understand both marriage and cheating.

And divorce is practically impossible for some women. Just read threads on TAM.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I, for one would like to hear from other BS's that have worked past the Blame game and have gone on with their lives, and maybe possibly tell some success stories. Maybe I'll start a thread about how I did it and see if there are any similar posters, who have gotten past their hate. Maybe we can have a "be nice to FWS's", thread. LMFAO!!


----------



## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Rugsweep (false R) is the easiest at first but it doesn't fix anything so normally things only seem better for a while and then rinse and repeat. Divorce is the toughest one at first but it's the easiest over time. Reconciliation has to be the tough one over the long run for both BS and WS.


I'll buy that. I was thinking short term because that, I think, is what most folks do.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> No, I'm not saying that infidelity is no big deal. I am saying two other things. First, infidelity is common. We all know that. In any marriage in the US there seems to be at least a 30% chance that one of the married people will cheat. That makes infidelity common, not unusual.
> 
> Second, once there is infidelity there are only a few different things that can be done. One is to rugsweep it, another is to reconcile, and the third is to divorce. I'm NOT saying that any of these are easy but some are easier than others.


Apparently, you are not interpreting posts properly. The BS and the WS _both_ rug sweep, whether they divorce or reconcile. It's just that one of them has to give in and accept the other will never understand their point of view. That does not make the one who accepts wrong. However, they can be perceived as a sucker or magnanimous. 

I don't disagree with there being choices. I disagree with someone saying they were caused/forced to cheat by their spouse. It's been posted many times, that a spouse makes that decision the marriage is done, long before they cheat. I'm just reaching a logical conclusion from what is posted. Are some of those posts lies or filled with emotion? Of course they are. Still, there is truth in them. 

As far as God is concerned, he doesn't want us to be unhappy, but he allows us to be tempted according to His will. Does he think we are happy while in temptation? I doubt it. Read Job. So, don't give me too much crap about what God thinks. None of us really knows. That is, if you even believe. We are here to serve His needs, not ours or anyone else's. Why do you think He is a jealous God? Therefore, we don't know why He does things the way He does, we just make the best of it and still follow. Take up your cross and follow me....Sorry for any perceived lack of respect to the Word. It is not meant. It is realistic interpretation by what is written...or close to what is written.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> I suspect that you've never been a cheater, but have you had a heart to heart talk with any of them?
> 
> As for me, I've spoken to a fair number of "cheaters". And I've been married for over 55 years, all to the same woman. And as far as I know, she's never cheated on me.
> 
> ...


I have never cheated. Wanted to a few times. I'm not perfect. 

Cograts on the 55. My grandparents were married longer. They slept in separate bedrooms.  Some fair better than that. Years are not an indicator of the health of the relationship, just the resolve and dedication of the individuals. 

Truly, you cannot understand something that develops from the uniqueness of another human being. Since we are all unique and cannot read each others minds, we can never really know. Cheaters are liars. They must be to get away with it for so long or altogether. The rest is on the BS for being in denial. 

Very little is impossible. You believe that some reconciling spouses here are doing so well and at one time, they likely did not think it was possible to get anywhere near this far. While they are few that get that far, there are examples. Divorce is simpler. You just have to downsize and accept that you have to rebuild. You have no idea where I come from, either, in the sense of what I have been through, what I've had to do to survive, how well I'm doing or literally anything. Yet, you say it is impossible to divorce. I won't bore you with my life. I will say that it is possible to divorce and live.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Rugsweep (false R) is the easiest at first but it doesn't fix anything so normally things only seem better for a while and then rinse and repeat. Divorce is the toughest one at first but it's the easiest over time. Reconciliation has to be the tough one over the long run for both BS and WS.


Well, there was no rugsweeping in my situation, so that's out. I kicked my wife out and divorced immediately, and , short term, it was no bed of roses. I attempted R afterwards, and that wasn't easy either, so I don't think ANY of it is really easy.
Actually fixing the blame was the easiest part of the whole process. She cheated, I didn't. That took care of that. Fixing the marriage issues, I think ,would be infinitely harder.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

No Rookie, from the beginning you have said if infidelity happens that the marriage was bad as infidelity doesn't happen in good marriages. Infidelity happens because of unhappiness and if one spouse was unhappy a good marriage can't truly exist. Stop changing what you have said all along in this and other threads (as it is out there for all to read). You have even said that no good marriage could have had infidelity, due to the simple fact infidelity happened the marriage must have been bad prior to the infidelity and that is why it happened and the BS just doesn't want to admit they had a bad marriage or that they see the issues that caused the cheating. Now you are saying the exact opposite in that it could have been good before hand. 

Pick a stance and defend it if you are going to argue it and not keep changing the story.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> 2ntnuf said:
> 
> 
> > No, I've chided you for misinterpreting and telling a story that is based on inaccuracy. Twisting facts to suit your agenda and beliefs, which I wholly disagree with.
> ...


I can say that most of us have had heart to hearts with a cheater on a level you will never reach nor understand. So judging us for our words and actions as detrimental or not understanding is not fair.

For you to think you have really understood the cheater you have to know and lived the situation (not necessarily as a spouse but been within the environment more than in a casual social setting) so you could see the true dynamic at play. The cheater will always make it worse than what it was (you what level that depends on the cheater but they will always embellish as may the BS with their downplaying of the same situation). Heart to hearts really mean nothing when the words being spoken don't always tell the truth.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> ......
> 
> And divorce is practically impossible for some women. Just read threads on TAM. .....


No I've read. yes divorce is impossible for them. I'm just asking why they are not honest about it. I mean your so called needs are not being met. it's okay. I understand. why didn't they tell their spouse about it? I mean why not say : honey my needs are important and you're not meeting them , therefore I'm gonna consider this marriage , an open marriage. you are free to date anybody. and I'm gonna do the same. why? since you are the expert on this complex topic. please enlighten us. no I'm not joking or mocking. I'm honestly asking: why?


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, there was no rugsweeping in my situation, so that's out. I kicked my wife out and divorced immediately, and , short term, it was no bed of roses. I attempted R afterwards, and that wasn't easy either, so I don't think ANY of it is really easy.
> Actually fixing the blame was the easiest part of the whole process. She cheated, I didn't. That took care of that. Fixing the marriage issues, I think ,would be infinitely harder.


The tough parts are overcoming fear of being alone, realizing we can't control others and we can't fix every problem, and regaining self esteem when it's been crunched. That's why rugsweeping isn't as hard as the other two because it doesn't require change; just self deception. 

Blame was easy for me as well except I didn't get it right to begin with. It took me realizing those things above before I saw which blame was mine.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> No Rookie, from the beginning you have said if infidelity happens that the marriage was bad as infidelity doesn't happen in good marriages. Infidelity happens because of unhappiness and if one spouse was unhappy a good marriage can't truly exist. Stop changing what you have said all along in this and other threads (as it is out there for all to read). You have even said that no good marriage could have had infidelity, due to the simple fact infidelity happened the marriage must have been bad prior to the infidelity and that is why it happened and the BS just doesn't want to admit they had a bad marriage or that they see the issues that caused the cheating. Now you are saying the exact opposite in that it could have been good before hand.
> 
> Pick a stance and defend it if you are going to argue it and not keep changing the story.


Okay if you say that you've read my posts, have you also read the numerous times that I stated that the marriage COULD have been good Before the decision and issues that lead to the cheating? You only want to take the part of my posts that agree with your position, and conveniently forget to mention the rest of them. If you're going to use my posts as examples , use ALL of them.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The tough parts are overcoming fear of being alone, realizing we can't control others and we can't fix every problem, and regaining self esteem when it's been crunched. That's why rugsweeping isn't as hard as the other two because it doesn't require change; just self deception.
> 
> Blame was easy for me as well except I didn't get it right to begin with. It took me realizing those things above before I saw which blame was mine.


Now these issues you mention weren't as hard for me. I wasn't afraid of being alone, because I've always been good with the Ladies. I'm not a "control freak" because of my position in the Company was pretty much untouchable, and this filtered down into my private life. My self esteem did take a hit, at first, until I remembered my wife's anger management issues and realized that she was just being a b*tch. A HUGE b*tch, BTW.
My anger and disappointment with her was really hard, because, bottom line, I always thought she was fully on board with the program. In some ways what was the hardest thing was realizing that she had her affair, not to satisfy any needs she had, but specifically to hurt me. She regarded it as "punishment" for my neglect of her.
Where she f*cked up was that she didn't think that I would respond like I did. She thought that because I loved her so much, that I would try to "work it out", and would give up my position on the Board, and we would go back to the way we were. She would prove that the affair meant nothing to her, I would forgive her and all would be well. Besides her anger management, she has never been very good at understanding others. She completely misjudged my reaction, and was horrified by my response.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

She didn't know me as well as she thought she did.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> The tough parts are overcoming fear of being alone, realizing we can't control others and we can't fix every problem, and regaining self esteem when it's been crunched. That's why rugsweeping isn't as hard as the other two because it doesn't require change; just self deception.
> 
> Blame was easy for me as well except I didn't get it right to begin with. It took me realizing those things above before I saw which blame was mine.


In general, this stuff is true. 

Alone is subjective. I don't think there are very many here who really know what alone is. Much of this is just working with the problems and issues that are on the surface, while retaining the stable base that was built before the marriage by each. There are other scenarios out there which change the value placed on each of these by individual.

If blaming is assigning responsibility for a fault or wrong, I don't see the issue. What's the big deal about taking responsibility? I guess it hurts someone's feelings? I don't give a crap about her feelings. She didn't give a crap about mine.

She may think that as time passes, things will return to some sort of normal friendship where we can talk or something. It won't. She made her choices. Friends don't do that to each other. She has proven she is not my friend, never was and never will be. Anyone who is her friend is not a friend of mine.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Assigning responsibility is a perfectly all right and proper thing to do. but that isn't what the "blame game" is about. It is about qualifying the amount and severity of responsibility. This is where it gets really divisive . "What you did or did not do is WORSE, than what I did or did not do". And, of course , this is all very subjective. WE see this on TAM all of the time. Both directly, as in the statements of anger directed at any WS who comes here. And also in-directly as in the ridiculous comparisons between infidelity and the loss of a child or other family member. Both are made to impart the idea that the BS is , somehow less to blame for the state of the marriage, and to illustrate that infidelity is far worse than just about any other sin a married person can commit. Both ideas are incorrect. The WS is guilty of only one sin, infidelity, and while it is a very big sin, there are many other sins that are far worse.
Rarely does cheating result in the death or serious injury of anybody. Spousal abuse does, quite frequently. Mental illness , alcoholism/drug use cause far, far, more trouble than cheating. Financial mismanagement can have a harmful effect on a family for generations. Compared to these tragedies, cheating isn't nearly as damaging.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Sometimes we just need to tone down the rhetoric a little.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Assigning responsibility is a perfectly all right and proper thing to do. but that isn't what the "blame game" is about. It is about qualifying the amount and severity of responsibility. This is where it gets really divisive . "What you did or did not do is WORSE, than what I did or did not do". And, of course , this is all very subjective. WE see this on TAM all of the time. Both directly, as in the statements of anger directed at any WS who comes here. And also in-directly as in the ridiculous comparisons between infidelity and the loss of a child or other family member. Both are made to impart the idea that the BS is , somehow less to blame for the state of the marriage, and to illustrate that infidelity is far worse than just about any other sin a married person can commit. Both ideas are incorrect. The WS is guilty of only one sin, infidelity, and while it is a very big sin, there are many other sins that are far worse.
> Rarely does cheating result in the death or serious injury of anybody. Spousal abuse does, quite frequently. Mental illness , alcoholism/drug use cause far, far, more trouble than cheating. Financial mismanagement can have a harmful effect on a family for generations. Compared to these tragedies, cheating isn't nearly as damaging.


How do you know that the WS is guilty of no more than one sin? The rest of the marrital troubles, if there are any, must be assigned to the BS, or...?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

cpacan said:


> How do you know that the WS is guilty of no more than one sin? The rest of the marrital troubles, if there are any, must be assigned to the BS, or...?


Only one sin, for the purpose of my point. You see? You knee jerked. You automatically thought I was blaming something on the BS, when I never said that the BS WAS GUILTY OF ANYTHING!! This is exactly my point . The vast majority of threads and posts are rants about the horrible , evil, WS and the good BS's , that few posters ever actually stop to think about what they are saying. Anything good said about a WS is automatically against BS's in general.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Assigning responsibility is a perfectly all right and proper thing to do. but that isn't what the "blame game" is about. It is about qualifying the amount and severity of responsibility. This is where it gets really divisive . * "What you did or did not do is WORSE, than what I did or did not do".* And, of course , this is all very subjective. *WE see this on TAM all of the time.* Both directly, as in the statements of anger directed at any WS who comes here. And also in-directly as in the ridiculous comparisons between infidelity and the loss of a child or other family member. Both are made to impart the idea that the BS is , somehow less to blame for the state of the marriage, and to illustrate that infidelity is far worse than just about any other sin a married person can commit. Both ideas are incorrect. The WS is guilty of only one sin, infidelity, and while it is a very big sin, there are many other sins that are far worse.
> Rarely does cheating result in the death or serious injury of anybody. Spousal abuse does, quite frequently. Mental illness , alcoholism/drug use cause far, far, more trouble than cheating. Financial mismanagement can have a harmful effect on a family for generations. Compared to these tragedies, cheating isn't nearly as damaging.


I would not deny that I likely did this in the beginning. I do not know where I have done it in a long long time. 

Could seeing it all the time be a testament to the destruction caused in that person's life? I speak here of not just the infidelity itself, but of a combination of things.



> It is about qualifying the amount and severity of responsibility.


Here, you seem to say that the blame is about placing more responsibility for the infidelity on one spouse. You say that's subjective.



> The WS is guilty of only one sin, infidelity, and while it is a very big sin, there are many other sins that are far worse.


Later, you say this, above. 

Is this not also subjective? Is this not the opposite of your first assertion? It is minimizing the pain of the BS. The impact the sex act in itself has on the BS is usually subjective and in relation to the personal sexual experiences of the BS. The difference in conclusions is how one perceives the act of sex. If it is basically no big deal to have sex with someone, if it is something that a person has done many times with many different folks, there is much less emphasis on the act. It doesn't bother the BS as much. They believe it is similar to urinating, defecating, breathing, or eating. That is subjective and it must be or there will not be understanding between the BS' and WS'. If you read a little further in your post above, you might see the connection to the sex part of this.

The WS may not only be guilty of one thing. 

Take a gander at this and tell me which one was the WS. Tell me what _one_ thing the WS did that made them a WS? Tell me then, if you think one WS could be worse than another? Tell me why they would have been worse? Then, tell me who got the worst of that situation and if you think they deserved it? 

Tables have turned - The aftermath of my revenge affair - LoveShack.org Community Forums 

Let me tell you something. When I post something about what I have done or not done, it's not received very well. I don't know why. Sometimes I think folks believe I am not being fully truthful, yet no one has the balls to come out, state what they want to call me on, why they believe I have done what they are stating, and where they got that information. Yet, they seem to want me to admit to things that they believe are true and acknowledge that they are correct. 

Just as you in this very thread, asked for proof of what others have accused you of doing, I do the same. I assume that when there is no further discussion or questions, they could not back their opinions with fact. 



> Rarely does cheating result in the death or serious injury of anybody. Spousal abuse does, quite frequently. Mental illness , alcoholism/drug use cause far, far, more trouble than cheating. Financial mismanagement can have a harmful effect on a family for generations. Compared to these tragedies, cheating isn't nearly as damaging.


How do you figure in suicides or murders when spouses are caught in the act. Suicides might be due to the mental condition of the individual at the time. In that moment, would the cheating be considered a direct cause? Women usually stab someone, or rather use knives than guns. There would not be as much damage in most cases or as many deaths. Those aren't reported much. They just don't get the press. 

Alcohol abuse/drug use do cause many troubles in the world. Financial mismanagement can, but with less frequency, much less. 

Now to the big one, abuse. What kind of spousal abuse are you speaking of here? The court system classifies many things as abuse. While they all are subject to interpretations of the law, punishment, and have an effect on the outcome of a divorce in very similar fashion, they are sometimes different. Some of which have less of a physical impact than others. 

In those cases with verbal abuse and harassing phone calls or statements made in anger, the target spouse can, if a woman, get a RO or a pfa in short order. The courts don't talk about it, they just do. Now, when that happens and there was no physical abuse, do you think the punishment should be the same? Do you think that anyone who might know about such things would stop and consider that those RO's and pfa's might have been over compensation? In the end, that person will undoubtedly pay the price for the rest of their lives, in financial loss, friends, family, pretty much every aspect of their life. 

I am not minimizing the physical and mental impact of _real life experiences_ of the burning bed movies. 

I've known men who were abusive. I don't know exactly what they did. I do know that some were not physically abusive at all. Many were regular guys who just likely didn't realize they were verbally or emotionally abusive, since they seemed not to know any other way of speaking and acting. It's sad for all. 

Those who hit their wives, in all cases I knew, realized they were wrong. Did they justify like WS do? Yes. Did they minimize? Yes. Did they twist truth and trickle truth? Yes. 

Many counselors used to believe that the effects of abuse were mainly on the psyche. The effects on reasoning ability and emotional health of the abused was pretty similar across the board from physical to verbal abuse. Triggers, after the abused was safely living away from the most heinous abusers, would cause anxiety attacks, and many "coping" disorders. 

I can read page after page of those types of things from marriage forum to marriage forum. Many of them did not experience terrible abuse in their marriages, but they did experience infidelity.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, there was no rugsweeping in my situation, so that's out. I kicked my wife out and divorced immediately, and , short term, it was no bed of roses. I attempted R afterwards, and that wasn't easy either, so I don't think ANY of it is really easy.
> Actually fixing the blame was the easiest part of the whole process. She cheated, I didn't. That took care of that. Fixing the marriage issues, I think ,would be infinitely harder.


but was it your fault she cheated?

and if you didn't give a chance to R (which you did after d and a year).

I think you have said that you should have not made a decision to quick and taken some time, because after all you contributed to her affair.

at least it seems that what you are saying here that the BS contributes to the affair and should fix that issue, before considering R.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> IDK why it is that people continually try to put words in my mouth , that I do not say. I would really like somebody......anybody.... to show me where I EVER said that Sweetie's affair was my fault? I would almost pay money. Dude, you are so fixated about assigning blame that you can see nothing else. I'm really sorry you feel that way. So yes, you can ignore or not....your choice.


all of your post have insinuated that the BS has issues in the marriage that have contributed to the affair. almost all of them.

you have said that you your self had issues in your marriage and after trying r, that you said you should have taken time before you went straight to D. which i agree with


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> IDK why it is that people continually try to put words in my mouth , that I do not say. I would really like somebody......anybody.... to show me where I EVER said that Sweetie's affair was my fault? I would almost pay money. Dude, you are so fixated about assigning blame that you can see nothing else. I'm really sorry you feel that way. So yes, you can ignore or not....your choice.


I do not believe you have said your exwife affair was your faulty but what you have done is insinuated that all the BS here on TAM are at fault. because no spouse will cheat if the marriage was perfect.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I, for one would like to hear from other BS's that have worked past the Blame game and have gone on with their lives, and maybe possibly tell some success stories. Maybe I'll start a thread about how I did it and see if there are any similar posters, who have gotten past their hate. Maybe we can have a "be nice to FWS's", thread. LMFAO!!


I know you have blamed you ex because of her anger issues that the R did not work, but i feel that you have felt guilt in you R not working.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Only one sin, for the purpose of my point. You see? You knee jerked. You automatically thought I was blaming something on the BS, when I never said that the BS WAS GUILTY OF ANYTHING!! This is exactly my point . The vast majority of threads and posts are rants about the horrible , evil, WS and the good BS's , that few posters ever actually stop to think about what they are saying. Anything good said about a WS is automatically against BS's in general.


not word for word but you are insinuating it


----------



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Tables have turned - The aftermath of my revenge affair - LoveShack.org Community Forums


This is truly one of the saddest stories I've ever read. I wish I could see how that one turned out, and more importantly hope those kids are doing OK today...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

TheGoodGuy said:


> This is truly one of the saddest stories I've ever read. I wish I could see how that one turned out, and more importantly hope those kids are doing OK today...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It tears my heart out, for both of them.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I would not deny that I likely did this in the beginning. I do not know where I have done it in a long long time.
> 
> Could seeing it all the time be a testament to the destruction caused in that person's life? I speak here of not just the infidelity itself, but of a combination of things.
> 
> ...


I'm not ignoring you, 2ntnuf, but that post on Loveshack is a long one , so I'll read it and get back to you on it. After reading it, I can say with a fair amount of certainty (75%) that that post is bogus. The OP's continued references to sex practices seems to indicate that this post is a false attempt at salacious amusement. There is far more concern about getting BJ's than there is about the welfare of the kids, too. It just doesn't ring true with me, and seems made up instead of a RL situation. JMHO.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> but was it your fault she cheated?
> 
> and if you didn't give a chance to R (which you did after d and a year).
> 
> ...


Like many other people, I had doubts as to the course of action I took. But the longer it went , the surer I became. Now I realize that I did the right thing.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> not word for word but you are insinuating it


IDK how you can read so many posts, and come to exactly the wrong conclusions. 1. My attempt at R was ended because I didn't love my wife any more, not because of her anger issues, which she has gotten a good handle on. 2. I have always maintained that the cheating was 100% on the WS, and have said so in numerous posts. Apparently, you cannot differentiate between responsibility for the state of the marriage and responsibility for the cheating. If you really read my posts, in NOT A SINGLE ONE, have I ever blamed a BS, for the adultery.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> IDK how you can read so many posts, and come to exactly the wrong conclusions. 1. My attempt at R was ended because I didn't love my wife any more, not because of her anger issues, which she has gotten a good handle on. 2. I have always maintained that the cheating was 100% on the WS, and have said so in numerous posts. Apparently, you cannot differentiate between responsibility for the state of the marriage and responsibility for the cheating. If you really read my posts, in NOT A SINGLE ONE, have I ever blamed a BS, for the adultery.


but you have said that for a wayward spouse to cheat that is is a problem in the marriage that the betrayed spouse has caused, because it the marriage was *good* (not perfect) there would be no cheating.
that is not much of a differentiation. 

but then again I believe no marriage is perfect and if it is the best it can be (*some people may say a "good marriage"*) there still could be cheating


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> but you have said that for a wayward spouse to cheat that is is a problem in the marriage that the betrayed spouse has caused, because it the marriage was perfect there would be no cheating.
> that is not much of a differentiation.
> 
> but then again I believe no marriage is perfect and if it is the best it can be there still could be cheating


I have never said anything about a "perfect" marriage.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> I am willing to accept anything but fiction. Anybody who says that cheating happens in good marriages is talking fiction and self delusion.


you are right you used the word good.

but wrong cheating can and has happen in good marriages.

know the definition of "good" can be many thing to many people.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> I'm not ignoring you, 2ntnuf, but that post on Loveshack is a long one , so I'll read it and get back to you on it. After reading it, I can say with a fair amount of certainty (75%) that that post is bogus. The OP's continued references to sex practices seems to indicate that this post is a false attempt at salacious amusement. There is far more concern about getting BJ's than there is about the welfare of the kids, too. It just doesn't ring true with me, and seems made up instead of a RL situation. JMHO.




What continued reference to sex practices?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rookie,

I know now what you are. I held hope, but no longer. Please don't hurt anyone else. It's really not funny. These are serious matters.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Okay if you say that you've read my posts, have you also read the numerous times that I stated that the marriage COULD have been good Before the decision and issues that lead to the cheating? You only want to take the part of my posts that agree with your position, and conveniently forget to mention the rest of them. If you're going to use my posts as examples , use ALL of them.


Sorry but you have never said that it was good and then cheating just happened. You have always said it might have been good to one but the other was unhappy and cheated and therefor it was a bad marriage. Even when asked, you have said that the marriage couldn't have been good as one partner was unhappy and cheated.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> you are right you used the word good.
> 
> but wrong cheating can and has happen in good marriages.
> 
> know the definition of "good" can be many thing to many people.


You see, Convert, you (and others ) are talking at cross purposes. If , as you say, cheating can happen in good marriages, then the opposite must also be true, a good marriage is one that has adultery in it. If that is the case, why does TAM exist?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I know now what you are. I held hope, but no longer. Please don't hurt anyone else. It's really not funny. These are serious matters.


I know what you are, too. Please put me on ignore, so I don't have to waste my time trying to get you to see reason. Look at your LS thread and see how many times the OP mentions Oral, more than he mentions his kids. Does that sound real to you? You want to argue, for the sake of arguing. So....I will stop commenting on your posts. Good Day.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Sorry but you have never said that it was good and then cheating just happened. You have always said it might have been good to one but the other was unhappy and cheated and therefor it was a bad marriage. Even when asked, you have said that the marriage couldn't have been good as one partner was unhappy and cheated.


So, you believe that a marriage where one of the partners is unhappy and unsatisfied and cheats, is a good marriage?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Sadly, those posters who believe that cheating happens in good marriages, are trying to affix blame on the WS, but are, in fact, doing the opposite. They are giving the WS (and themselves) an "out". It is all part of our new society where everybody is a victim, and nobody is guilty.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

My marriage started out good, and was good for many years. A few years ago, it started (for numerous reasons) to go bad. The responsibility for this was both my wife's and my own. As the marriage got worse, she decided to cheat, this is 100% on her, as it was her (improper) reaction to the worsening state of our marriage. Now.... if I had decide to R, our marriage COULD (with a lot of work) have been good again. It never happened, but it was possible. So, what I'm saying is that the cheating didn't cause the marriage to go bad, it was already that way , and the cheating was a symptom. If we had solved our problems, if my wife had learned to control her anger, if my job situation had changed, then my wife would have been happy and satisfied and the cheating would not have happened, at all, because there would have been no reason for it........No Cause....no effect.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So, you believe that a marriage where one of the partners is unhappy and unsatisfied and cheats, is a good marriage?


Keep twisting and turning as you have been called out for your bad wording. Show me where I have ever said that. What I have said is that it can happen in a good marriage. Not the same thing in anybody's world except for yours. 

This post shows your f'd up logic:


> You see, Convert, you (and others ) are talking at cross purposes. If , as you say, *cheating can happen in good marriages, then the opposite must also be true, a good marriage is one that has adultery in it*. If that is the case, why does TAM exist?


Two non-congruent thoughts. One says it is possible to have occurred/happen and the others as stated makes it a condition/ requirement of. I think your issues are that you know what you are trying to state, but when you do it , it is written counter to what you mean, but that could be my take in things and I am entirely wrong. Won't be the first and won't be the last.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sadly, those posters who believe that cheating happens in good marriages, are trying to affix blame on the WS, but are, in fact, doing the opposite. They are giving the WS (and themselves) an "out". It is all part of our new society where everybody is a victim, and nobody is guilty.


Not true. Not everyone is trying to affix blame but just stating that because a marriage has infidelity affect it doesn't mean that it was bad. There are numerous reason that range from medical to financial that could cause the infidelity and it doesn't mean the marriage was bad, but it might have had issues. Even good marriages have bad times, but that doesn't make them an overall bad marriage because of that.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Not true. Not everyone is trying to affix blame but just stating that because a marriage has infidelity affect it doesn't mean that it was bad. There are numerous reason that range from medical to financial that could cause the infidelity and it doesn't mean the marriage was bad, but it might have had issues. Even good marriages have bad times, but that doesn't make them an overall bad marriage because of that.


You are contradicting yourself. You say that a good marriage can have infidelity in it, then go on to give reasons why it was bad. Yes, marriages are not always good. what I'm saying is that if there is infidelity in it, that marriage in not good, AT THAT TIME. I also agree that it is possible for a marriage to be good again, AFTER the infidelity and it's causes have been addressed. But, then again, I don't have to worry about that part.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You see, Convert, you (and others ) are talking at cross purposes. If , as you say, cheating can happen in good marriages, then the opposite must also be true, a good marriage is one that has adultery in it. If that is the case, why does TAM exist?


well, yes it can but not all the time.

one size does not fit all


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sadly, those posters who believe that cheating happens in good marriages, are trying to affix blame on the WS, but are, in fact, doing the opposite. They are giving the WS (and themselves) an "out". It is all part of our new society where everybody is a victim, and nobody is guilty.


but this exactly what you did in your marriage you gave yourself an out.
either blaming yourself or your ex. or both.
the blame has to go some where if not both


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Look it. My wife and I both know who was to blame for her cheating, and we both agree that it was her fault. We also know that our marriage wasn't good during those years, and we both agree that it was BOTH of our faults for being so sh*tty. Her affair did not CAUSE the sh*tty marriage. It is always the other way around. Fire doesn't cause sparks, sparks cause fire.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Not true. Not everyone is trying to affix blame but just stating that because a marriage has infidelity affect it doesn't mean that it was bad. There are numerous reason that range from medical to financial that could cause the infidelity and it doesn't mean the marriage was bad, but it might have had issues. Even good marriages have bad times, but that doesn't make them an overall bad marriage because of that.
> ...


Not contradicting at all except in your mind as you are looking to justify your statements that you believe to be true and change everybody else's way of thinking Timour strange ideals. Like I said before stop twisting, as I never sad anything about or gave any reasons/ excuses or implied or stated why the marriage was bad. I said that it might have had an issue or bad instance here or there but that doesn't make the entire marriage overall bad as a whole like you imply (and it is never a reason for infidelity). Life isn't always good/ bad, black/white. 

If I stub or break my toe and it hurts does that mean my whole foot should be cut off as it is bad to my health and comfort? That is what you are saying. One little pain or issue and the whole thing is bad.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Look it. My wife and I both know who was to blame for her cheating, and we both agree that it was her fault. We also know that our marriage wasn't good during those years, and we both agree that it was BOTH of our faults for being so sh*tty. Her affair did not CAUSE the sh*tty marriage. It is always the other way around. Fire doesn't cause sparks, sparks cause fire.


Yes but be there doesn't always have to be sparks. Spontaneous combustion can occur and that is what we are saying. It is possible that those sparks don't exist sometimes and the fire still occurs whereas you are saying it is never possible and we disagree with that statement. Most of the times it is there but it doesn't always have to be and the fire is still possible.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Not contradicting at all except in your mind as you are looking to justify your statements that you believe to be true and change everybody else's way of thinking Timour strange ideals. Like I said before stop twisting, as I never sad anything about or gave any reasons/ excuses or implied or stated why the marriage was bad. I said that it might have had an issue or bad instance here or there but that doesn't make the entire marriage overall bad as a whole like you imply (and it is never a reason for infidelity). Life isn't always good/ bad, black/white.
> 
> If I stub or break my toe and it hurts does that mean my whole foot should be cut off as it is bad to my health and comfort? That is what you are saying. One little pain or issue and the whole thing is bad.


That isn't a very good analogy Squeak. I've got one foot that isn't so good , at all. It's missing a couple of toes.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Yes but be there doesn't always have to be sparks. Spontaneous combustion can occur and that is what we are saying. It is possible that those sparks don't exist sometimes and the fire still occurs whereas you are saying it is never possible and we disagree with that statement. Most of the times it is there but it doesn't always have to be and the fire is still possible.


This is where you are wrong. Spontaneous combustion is a myth. For ANY action to occur, there is ALWAYS a cause. ALWAYS. There are no miracles, you cannot make something out of nothing.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Nobody is going to change anybody elses' mind, so I suggest we shelf this debate and carry on.
One of the things I have found is that rarely do the partners in a marriage know their spouses as well as they should, and in many cases, very little. My wife cheated because she knew that would hurt me the most. She was right. But she also thought she knew me well enough, that I would take her back. She was wrong. I didn't know my wife was capable of cheating. I was wrong. But I did know her well enough to easily discover the affair. Just goes to show you. Both waywards and BS's think that they have a good bead on their marriage, and usually both of them are wrong....and right. Communication is the key, but we never use it as often as we should.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> This is where you are wrong. Spontaneous combustion is a myth. For ANY action to occur, there is ALWAYS a cause. ALWAYS. There are no miracles, you cannot make something out of nothing.


there does not always have to be a cause for cheating.

just as you said we/society wants to blame someone, anyone, or both/all.

you only take you situation into account and it does not fit with everyone.
you did not have to spy, you got a full confession no TT
you went straight to D (which was probably best) but not all of us can do this


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Nobody is going to change anybody elses' mind, so I suggest we shelf this debate and carry on.
> One of the things I have found is that rarely do the partners in a marriage know their spouses as well as they should, and in many cases, very little. My wife cheated because she knew that would hurt me the most. She was right. But she also thought she knew me well enough, that I would take her back. She was wrong. I didn't know my wife was capable of cheating. I was wrong. But I did know her well enough to *easily discover the affair*. Just goes to show you. Both waywards and BS's think that they have a good bead on their marriage, and usually both of them are wrong....and right. Communication is the key, but we never use it as often as we should.


very rare is it that the BS get a full confession without TT

so you had better communication then most and had a better bead on your exwife then most to get the confession.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> very rare is it that the BS get a full confession without TT
> 
> so you had better communication then most and had a better bead on your exwife then most to get the confession.


Well, she confessed, but I found out the nuts and bolts, by myself. I knew her enough to find out all about it. Too bad I didn't look into it sooner.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, she confessed, but I found out the nuts and bolts, by myself. I knew her enough to find out all about it. *Too bad I didn't look into it sooner*.


that brings up a question, if you did could you have stopped the affair?
I know you don't like snooping and spying but it would have been (I think) needed if you looked into it sooner.

like i said I think you had a better bead on your exwife then most do


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> that brings up a question, if you did could you have stopped the affair?
> I know you don't like snooping and spying but it would have been (I think) needed if you looked into it sooner.
> 
> like i said I think you had a better bead on your exwife then most do


If we had fixed the issues we had, we both agree that there would not have been an affair.


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So, you believe that a marriage where one of the partners is unhappy and unsatisfied and cheats, is a good marriage?


Marriage is sometimes like wealth

You cannot make your marriage partner happy, but you certainly can contribute to their misery. 

Money may not make you happy, but poverty can certainly allow for misery. 

The term "good marriage" has contributed to your misery. Hang in there Rookie .... Kindest Regards-


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> If we had fixed the issues we had, we both agree that there would not have been an affair.


(restatement)
If my partner's character had never been tested, I would have continued in a blissful partnership. 

(how your logic fails)
Character affects every aspect of our behavior; in some ways profound, in other ways subtle. We have discovered that our WW's did not have the character we needed them to have. It was a fantasy, a projection that served our needs. And now this projection has eroded and you see your partner as they are instead of who you would have them be. Growth comes by working through pain, not by avoiding pain, and certainly not by suppressing honesty. Kindest Regards-


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Yes but be there doesn't always have to be sparks. Spontaneous combustion can occur and that is what we are saying. It is possible that those sparks don't exist sometimes and the fire still occurs whereas you are saying it is never possible and we disagree with that statement. Most of the times it is there but it doesn't always have to be and the fire is still possible.
> ...


So now besides an expert psychologist and marriage counselor you are also a world renowned scientist? You have proven that it is a myth and know this how, other than you claiming it is impossible? Sorry but it is not a myth. It is in fact possible under the right conditions and has been reproduced. There does not have to be a cause just the correct conditions must occur (and sorry but those conditions aren't a cause just what needs to be present for a fire to start and be supported). Is it rare, yes, but it is possible.

Even your explanation and reasoning is flawed as you say EVERY action needs a cause and you cannot make something out of nothing. So what causes the initial action that you claim is the cause then? According to your logic the initial action must have something that CAUSED it as that initial action can't just happen it is in essence the effect of something else. Sorry flawed circular logic at play here. It is like saying which came first the chicken or egg.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Jung_admirer said:


> (restatement)
> If my partner's character had never been tested, I would have continued in a blissful partnership.
> 
> (how your logic fails)
> Character affects every aspect of our behavior; in some ways profound, in other ways subtle. We have discovered that our WW's did not have the character we needed them to have. It was a fantasy, a projection that served our needs. And now this projection has eroded and you see your partner as they are instead of who you would have them be. Growth comes by working through pain, not by avoiding pain, and certainly not by suppressing honesty. Kindest Regards-


Since I'm no longer married to her, I really am not too concerned.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> So now besides an expert psychologist and marriage counselor you are also a world renowned scientist? You have proven that it is a myth and know this how, other than you claiming it is impossible? Sorry but it is not a myth. It is in fact possible under the right conditions and has been reproduced. There does not have to be a cause just the correct conditions must occur (and sorry but those conditions aren't a cause just what needs to be present for a fire to start and be supported). Is it rare, yes, but it is possible.
> 
> Even your explanation and reasoning is flawed as you say EVERY action needs a cause and you cannot make something out of nothing. So what causes the initial action that you claim is the cause then? According to your logic the initial action must have something that CAUSED it as that initial action can't just happen it is in essence the effect of something else. Sorry flawed circular logic at play here. It is like saying which came first the chicken or egg.


No, it is not possible. You can crawfish around the issue, but there has to be a cause for everything. Your "conditions" are , in fact , causes , but you would rather continue an argument than admit the truth. Do it with somebody else.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > So now besides an expert psychologist and marriage counselor you are also a world renowned scientist? You have proven that it is a myth and know this how, other than you claiming it is impossible? Sorry but it is not a myth. It is in fact possible under the right conditions and has been reproduced. There does not have to be a cause just the correct conditions must occur (and sorry but those conditions aren't a cause just what needs to be present for a fire to start and be supported). Is it rare, yes, but it is possible.
> ...


Just as you wouldn't admit that you're wrong. Funny how when your logic is applied to a situation and it doesn't fit, you never admit your mistakes and then claim the other party is just arguing. I am simply having a logical discussion and not arguing but once again your logic and ideals are the only ones that count so it is an argument, correct? You haven't proven this so called truth you claim I am denying. Where is it as none has been presented?

The conditions are not causes as they don't yield the result you are arguing about except in a given specific environment. Do they contribute to supporting the end result? Most definitely but it doesn't make them causes as they all have to be present in an exact and specific scenario for the combustion to occur but they don't have to do anything to elicit it other than be present. All present in a different environment and no combustion. I guess if you consider just being present an action or cause then your right. Which would then make one responsible for everything around them as they were present and therefor a cause to whatever takes place, be it famine, fire, flood, theft, etc they are present so by your logic a cause.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Just as you wouldn't admit that you're wrong. The conditions are not causes as they don't yield the result you are arguing about except in a given specific environment. Do they contribute to supporting the end result? Most definitely but it doesn't make them causes as they all have to be present in an exact and specific scenario for the combustion to occur but they don't have to do anything to elicit it other than be present. All present in a different environment and no combustion. I guess if you consider just being present an action or cause then your right. Which would then make one responsible for everything around them as they were present and therefor a cause to whatever takes place, be it famine, fire, flood, theft, etc they are present so by your logic a cause.


When you can make something out of nothing, get back to me. Otherwise, I'm about done with this thread.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Just as you wouldn't admit that you're wrong. The conditions are not causes as they don't yield the result you are arguing about except in a given specific environment. Do they contribute to supporting the end result? Most definitely but it doesn't make them causes as they all have to be present in an exact and specific scenario for the combustion to occur but they don't have to do anything to elicit it other than be present. All present in a different environment and no combustion. I guess if you consider just being present an action or cause then your right. Which would then make one responsible for everything around them as they were present and therefor a cause to whatever takes place, be it famine, fire, flood, theft, etc they are present so by your logic a cause.
> ...


Where is this nothing you are claiming? I have never said something out of nothing. I have said spontaneous combustion can occur and no spark is necessary. Where have I claimed nothing as you so eloquently put it. 

Get back to me with when I have claimed such nonsense. You were the one that claimed it was a myth, back your claim ( or do you think objects when presented in the correct ratio and in a specific set of environmental conditions can not ignite on their own) as it has been recreated in labs)?

Heck show me nothing and prove it exists? Even in the smallest amount measurable of anything, there is always something present within it. Your ideal of nothing doesn't exists from a scientific point (only possibly in theory at this time but not in proveable practice as matter is always in existence).


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Off topic I know, but your argument was that spontaneous combustion can't happen and you even went as far as to call it a myth and compare it to miracles. Do you know what spontaneous combustion is, as it is just resultant fire that occurs without an ignition source (i.e. a spark/ flame)? Then you point out that the the "conditions" I stated were in fact the cause, but none of them are a spark/flame, are you not then stating that it is possible as they are now the cause (by your statements and logic)? If they are the cause and no ignition source exists then by your statements it is possible. DO you not see that even by using your logic and statements you have proven it is possible?? Like I have said many times, not all is black and white as you see it.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> When you can make something out of nothing, get back to me. Otherwise, I'm about done with this thread.


as an engineer/scientist I would normally agree but marriage/relationships and infidelity are not so much science and engineering--it is not black and white, I wish it were but then it would probably be boring


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Where is this nothing you are claiming? * I have never said something out of nothing*. I have said spontaneous combustion can occur and no spark is necessary. Where have I claimed nothing as you so eloquently put it.
> 
> Get back to me with when I have claimed such nonsense. You were the one that claimed it was a myth, back your claim ( or do you think objects when presented in the correct ratio and in a specific set of environmental conditions can not ignite on their own) as it has been recreated in labs)?
> 
> Heck show me nothing and prove it exists? Even in the smallest amount measurable of anything, there is always something present within it. Your ideal of nothing doesn't exists from a scientific point (only possibly in theory at this time but not in proveable practice as matter is always in existence).


Course we all recognize this but it's his way of dancing around the issue and not admitting that at times things other than a bad marriage can be the cause of an affair. Either being done by someone so close minded you wonder how they function in the world or deliberately to continue the argument for sake of argument. Even my 8 year old can grasp the concept of different causes can lead to an effect so I tend to believe the latter.

As I said pages ago not worth trying to convince someone who isn't open to the conversation. He isn't debating or communicating he is just arguing his way is the only way. Best just to move on.


----------



## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Course we all recognize this but it's his way of dancing around the issue and not admitting that at times things other than a bad marriage can be the cause of an affair. Either being done by someone so close minded you wonder how they function in the world or deliberately to continue the argument for sake of argument. Even my 8 year old can grasp the concept of different causes can lead to an effect so I tend to believe the latter.
> 
> As I said pages ago not worth trying to convince someone who isn't open to the conversation. He isn't debating or communicating he is just arguing his way is the only way. Best just to move on.


I think there is a saying for this. You can wake someone who is asleep. but you can't wake some one who's pretending he's asleep.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Of course there is a difference. But let me rephrase that. The husband regularly beats his wife, throws her on the bed, and has his way with her. There is no infidelity so far. if asked, he says that they have a great marriage and she nods in agreement.
> 
> The next week, the guy she's been talking to at work hears her story, puts his arms around her and comforts her as she cries. One thing leads to another and they have sex. Now there has been infidelity.
> 
> *And of course she's the cheater. She's evil. She deserves anything that her husband gives her and has no complaint.* And they have a successful reconciliation because after she gets out of the hospital (she fell down a lot in the next few days) she agrees with whatever he says.




Then you obviously didn't read a word I said. I asked when the marriage is equally bad for both. Then you come back with a husband that beats his wife. 

Also, we are arguing about bad marriages. What you are putting forward goes way beyond a bad marriage. And also of course, given which side of the fence you sit, you come back with the tired, and inaccurate sympathy grab by insinuating that we are all saying the WS is evil just because they cheated. Sorry, you missed the mark.

So I'll ask again, marriage is equally bad for both spouses. One cheats, one doesn't. What is the difference between the 2 people?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> All I meant was that he should be careful about marrying flawed women.


:bsflag:


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> So, you believe that a marriage where one of the partners is unhappy and unsatisfied and cheats, is a good marriage?


There are people that are happy with their married life, but just like to get strange once in a while.

Yes, it does happen.



Rookie4 said:


> Since I'm no longer married to her, I really am not too concerned.


But....You have to understand what you did wrong to cause her to cheat so that you don't make the same mistakes with new wife and cause her to cheat as well.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> There are people that are happy with their married life, but just like to get strange once in a while.
> 
> Yes, it does happen.
> 
> ...


Do you ever get tired of being wrong? I would think that it would be depressing to be mistaken so much that you have to make up answers instead of any factual evidence.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Do you ever get tired of being wrong? I would think that it would be depressing to be mistaken so much that you have to make up answers instead of any factual evidence.


Not wrong. My x-wife simply wanted strange, and a lot of it.

As far as the second part, that is what you have told BS's before, but don't seem to think it applies to you.

Nice try.


----------



## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Rookie,
> 
> I know now what you are. I held hope, but no longer. Please don't hurt anyone else. It's really not funny. These are serious matters.


I need a small hint - does it rhyme on "soul"?


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

TheGoodGuy said:


> This is truly one of the saddest stories I've ever read. I wish I could see how that one turned out, and more importantly hope those kids are doing OK today...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That "story" had to be fake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Of course it is, the OP in the story is much more concerned about getting "oral" than anything else, even his kids welfare.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Not wrong. My x-wife simply wanted strange, and a lot of it.
> 
> As far as the second part, that is what you have told BS's before, but don't seem to think it applies to you.
> 
> Nice try.


Well, your wife wanting to get boinked by other men, sounds to me , like a pretty serious cause for her cheating.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Of course it is, the OP in the story is much more concerned about getting "oral" than anything else, even his kids welfare.


Whether it is real or fake, it isn't as farfetched as you seem to think, that one would be so focused on a single act. He fixated on oral because, as has been seen on TAM NUMEROUS times, she gave the OM oral but always refused to give it to her husband. Fixating on that is not reason enough to call a post a fake. Chances are that it is, due to other aspects... mostly the matter of fact way he presented how he cheated quite some time afterward, after his wife DID start giving it to him. When it comes to fixating on specific acts that the spouse refused, but willingly did with AP, it absolutely makes sense. And it also makes sense to not talk about the kids WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT SEX ACTS WITH AP! Come on, Rookie. I thought you were smarter than this.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Whether it is real or fake, it isn't as farfetched as you seem to think, that one would be so focused on a single act. He fixated on oral because, as has been seen on TAM NUMEROUS times, she gave the OM oral but always refused to give it to her husband. Fixating on that is not reason enough to call a post a fake. Chances are that it is, due to other aspects... mostly the matter of fact way he presented how he cheated quite some time afterward, after his wife DID start giving it to him. When it comes to fixating on specific acts that the spouse refused, but willingly did with AP, it absolutely makes sense. And it also makes sense to not talk about the kids WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT SEX ACTS WITH AP! Come on, Rookie. I thought you were smarter than this.


 Sorry, not buying any of it. There are lots better posts right here on TAM, that could have been used to illustrate the point, rather than a post from another site, that is suspect. The OP was trying to titillate, not to educate. So you think it is "smarter" to believe such nonsense, than it is to question it? I don't think so.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't make anybody grovel like a dog. Why to satisfy the BS desire to punish, or to re establish their self esteem at the expense of another? I don't believe that any reputable counselor or infidelity website advocates submissive behavior on the part of the WS. Not even the Harley's. Just restitution and honest actions are what most , if not all of them call for.


Is airing the truth, being remorseful, not blameshifting, responding to a BS's questions, and attempting restitution considered "groveling"?


----------



## changedbeliefs (Jun 13, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Sad if you took only that small tidbit away from this thread.


This thread is chock full of unoriginal ideas on the topic. However, infidelity being on par with rape IS a new one, so I thought I'd highlight that.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Whether it is real or fake, it isn't as farfetched as you seem to think, that one would be so focused on a single act. He fixated on oral because, as has been seen on TAM NUMEROUS times, she gave the OM oral but always refused to give it to her husband. Fixating on that is not reason enough to call a post a fake. Chances are that it is, due to other aspects... mostly the matter of fact way he presented how he cheated quite some time afterward, after his wife DID start giving it to him. When it comes to fixating on specific acts that the spouse refused, but willingly did with AP, it absolutely makes sense. And it also makes sense to not talk about the kids WHEN IT COMES TO TALKING ABOUT SEX ACTS WITH AP! Come on, Rookie. I thought you were smarter than this.


The problem with your reasons are that it was the OP who brought up BOTH the sex thing AND his kids. It wasn't like he was forced to admit to anything. He (the OP) made the post.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

michzz said:


> Is airing the truth, being remorseful, not blameshifting, responding to a BS's questions, and attempting restitution considered "groveling"?


Nope. It's not. But it must be voluntary. Attempting to force it, isn't a good thing. This is one area that I agree with the Harley's about. Positive Re-enforcement works better than browbeating and punishment.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Well, your wife wanting to get boinked by other men, sounds to me , like a pretty serious cause for her cheating.


Yup, a cause that had nothing to do with me. Wouldn't have mattered who she was married to. Strange is just that....strange.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope. It's not. But it must be voluntary. Attempting to force it, isn't a good thing. This is one area that I agree with the Harley's about. Positive Re-enforcement works better than browbeating and punishment.


whaaaat? you kick you ex-wife out and went straight to divorce. A little more then just browbeating.
which was probably the right call, you even say it was for the best.

do you think you wasted time on R a year after D? or did something good come out of it?


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> The problem with your reasons are that it was the OP who brought up BOTH the sex thing AND his kids. It wasn't like he was forced to admit to anything. He (the OP) made the post.


You know, I am inclined to agree with others on here. You just enjoy arguing... with everyone. You play both sides. I've seen it. Frankly, your position helps neither betrayed nor wayward.

I have seen posts, even on here, that were legitimate, and they were structured similar to that particular post. OP brought up both the sex act done with the AP, as well as the fact that BS and WS have kids together. OP was focused on the act because his wife REFUSED until the truth came out and they decided to reconcile. In this particular post, the selfish jerk had his own affair, years later, and used his wife's affair against her. THAT'S the part that flagged it for me... that years later he cheated and threw it in her face. But the other stuff? Nah. Doesn't surprise me in the least that he brought both up and focused on oral. Not a bit.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, not buying any of it. There are lots better posts right here on TAM, that could have been used to illustrate the point, rather than a post from another site, that is suspect. The OP was trying to titillate, not to educate. So you think it is "smarter" to believe such nonsense, than it is to question it? I don't think so.


I think it's smarter to not play both sides. But what do I know?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

I'll take everything you said one by one




changedbeliefs said:


> I just read that infidelity is equivalent to RAPE!?!!?


If someone said that, its ridiculous. Sure they weren't simply making some comparison and not saying its equivalent?
If someone does think its equivalent, then its ridiculous.




> This thread had no chance from the start. Six pages later and we're basically still at, BS's can have done whatever in their relationship, or their lives, bad or good, if they didn't cheat, they're above reproach.


Nobody is saying that. Please let me know who said it and what post, I'll reply.

Now a BS is above reproach if they didn't do anything, much less to the despicable level of what the WS did. But if they did things such as beat their spouse, mentally abused them, etc, they are certainly not above reproach.




> WS's, regardless of what they may have done in the relationship, or their lives, bad or good, are "despicable," equivalent to rapists, and can never, ever again, or can never have ever had, any integrity.


They are not the equivalent to rapists

They ARE despiciable, IMO, but not in general. But certainly WHILE they are engaging in an affair.

As far as their integrity, that is up to their BS to decide, for themselves, whether they have any or not. But again, certainly one cannot say a WS has integrity when they are getting F'd by someone other than their spouse. I'd really like to hear someone say, "now that is integrity for ya!" and actually be sincere. I'd have to laugh my ass off.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EI said:


> P.S. You really don't have a very good sense of humor!!!


No, I don't. Not when it comes to a topic like this that hurts people in one of the worst ways.

Nothing f****g funny about it.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I don't make anybody grovel like a dog. Why to satisfy the BS desire to punish, or to re establish their self esteem at the expense of another? I don't believe that any reputable counselor or infidelity website advocates submissive behavior on the part of the WS. Not even the Harley's. *Just restitution *and honest actions are what most , if not all of them call for.


What kind of restitution?


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

vellocet said:


> No, I don't. Not when it comes to a topic like this that hurts people in one of the worst ways.
> 
> Nothing f****g funny about it.


vellocet, making a light hearted joke is not a cardinal sin, not even for a former WS. In fact, it's quite healthy. Neither B1 or I have any desire to live our lives wallowing in anger and misery, or to see the other do so, either. 

I say this with the utmost respect and with all sincerity. If I remember correctly, (and, God knows I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last) you have been divorced for at least 10 years. It would seem that you are still seething with bitterness and resentment. While that is understandable, for a time, with any type grievous injury, especially one that was intentionally inflicted, you owe it to yourself, and to your children, to try to move through your anger and into a place of healing and peace. The quote _"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die"_ comes to mind.

Have you ever gotten any IC for anger management, PTSD, or maybe even grief counseling? You need to heal. Your ex-wife is not your greatest enemy, anymore, you are.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

convert said:


> whaaaat? you kick you ex-wife out and went straight to divorce. A little more then just browbeating.
> which was probably the right call, you even say it was for the best.
> 
> do you think you wasted time on R a year after D? or did something good come out of it?


A LOT good came out of it. I learned that my ex wife could be trusted again, that she had done a HUGE amount of work to make herself a better person. We are now able to be friends with love and respect for each other. I would say all of these are very positive accomplishments.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> What kind of restitution?


You should go to Marriage Builders to find out. The Harleys explain it better than I can. They have a process about it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> No, I don't. Not when it comes to a topic like this that hurts people in one of the worst ways.
> 
> Nothing f****g funny about it.


Oh, I don't know....some of these posts are a riot.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

MAGIC APPLES;

Man goes into a bar and orders a Gin and tonic. Bartender hands him an apple. Man says, "I ordered a Gin and Tonic". Bartender says , "this is a magic apple . It tastes like anything you want". Man bites into it and it tastes like the most delicious gin he has ever had. Bartender says , "now, turn it around" He does and it tastes like the best Tonic he has ever had.
Another Guy comes in and orders a rum and coke. Bartender hands him an apple. Guy says" Hey , I ordered a rum and coke. First man says" just take a bite". Guy takes a bite and it's the best rum he has ever had. Bartender says, "now, turn it around". And it tastes just like coke.
Thrid Guy has been listening to this and says "I want a drink that tastes like P*ssy". Bartender hands him an apple and he takes a bite. man gags and says " this tastes like sh*t" Bartender says, "now, turn it around".


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EI said:


> vellocet, making a light hearted joke is not a cardinal sin, not even for a former WS. In fact, it's quite healthy. Neither B1 or I have any desire to live our lives wallowing in anger and misery, or to see the other do so, either.
> 
> I say this with the utmost respect and with all sincerity. If I remember correctly, (and, God knows I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last) you have been divorced for at least 10 years. It would seem that you are still seething with bitterness and resentment. While that is understandable, for a time, with any type grievous injury, especially one that was intentionally inflicted, you owe it to yourself, and to your children, to try to move through your anger and into a place of healing and peace. The quote _"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die"_ comes to mind.
> 
> Have you ever gotten any IC for anger management, PTSD, or maybe even grief counseling? You need to heal. Your ex-wife is not your greatest enemy, anymore, you are.


I am about as angry as anyone can be at infidelity but there has to be some light tossed in with all the darkness. Not to ever make light of betrayal and damage but to show hope and that though much is lost, there is still life and more than darkness can be obtained. Some times you need to smile instead of cry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

changedbeliefs said:


> This thread is chock full of unoriginal ideas on the topic. However, infidelity being on par with rape IS a new one, so I thought I'd highlight that.


Actually, it was me who said that infidelity is rape. The therapist (Willard Harley, Marriage Builders) said he has female clients who insisted that suffering infidelity *was worse* than rape or death of a child: 

The Lover's Perspective on Infidelity

There is a continuum here. If you are not emotionally invested in a marriage, infidelity may not be that big a deal. Now imagine you invested all your vulnerability and trust in a partner. I suggest the betrayal of such an investment will always be on par with rape. I understand this will be hard for a WS to acknowledge, and easily dismissed by a person not willing to make an equivalent emotion investment (avoidant).

Nevertheless, when you betray someone and choose to make amends .... You must go to where they are... You know they feel violated, and you as a WS do not get to negotiate down their level of violation. This minimization is the worst form of self-protection at the expense of the BS.

<afterword>
To avoid such a betrayal your might follow Sydney's counsel and simply not make a large emotional investment in your partner. Any potential betrayal will hurt less if you have less invested. This is certainly one option. For many, a life so constrained (think of Harrison Bergeron) is a life not worth living. Jung discussed the inevitable neurotic response in failing to invoke our gifts in fullest measure. The greatest of these gifts is our ability to love.

<2nd afterword>
This is from the film "Meet Joe Black", and is what the father (Anthony Hopkins) was saying to his daughter (Claire Forlani) in trying to tell her what to look for in love.

"I want you to get swept away, sing with rapture, dance like a dervish.

It's a cornball thing.
Love is passion, obsession... something you can't live without.
I say, fall head over heels.
Find someone you can love like crazy, that will love you the same way back.
How do you find them, well...
you forget your head and listen to your heart.

'cause the truth is honey,
There's no sense in living your life without this,
To make the journey and not fall deeply in love,
well... you haven't lived a life at all.
But you have to try.
Because if you haven't tried, you haven't lived."

<3rd afterword>
When you walk on the street, you have a right to be physically secure. When you engage in an emotional partnership, you have the same right to expect your intimacy will not be violated. 

Think about rape ... why is it so very serious? It's not the physical trauma, as people (men and women) suffering rape generally heal.

What takes a very long time to heal is the suppression of personal power and self-determination. Both rape and infidelity suppress the core expression of person: rape suppresses through violence, infidelity suppresses through betrayal. Although the mode of suppression is different, the result is EXACTLY the same .... A lack of power and self-determination because of the actions taken by another. <TJ over, apologies>


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EI said:


> vellocet, making a light hearted joke is not a cardinal sin, not even for a former WS. In fact, it's quite healthy. Neither B1 or I have any desire to live our lives wallowing in anger and misery, or to see the other do so, either.
> 
> I say this with the utmost respect and with all sincerity. If I remember correctly, (and, God knows I could be wrong, it sure wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last) you have been divorced for at least 10 years. It would seem that you are still seething with bitterness and resentment. While that is understandable, for a time, with any type grievous injury, especially one that was intentionally inflicted, you owe it to yourself, and to your children, to try to move through your anger and into a place of healing and peace. The quote _"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die"_ comes to mind.
> 
> Have you ever gotten any IC for anger management, PTSD, or maybe even grief counseling? You need to heal. Your ex-wife is not your greatest enemy, anymore, you are.


I dont know that I woud make the assumpption he is angry at all about it. I know for me I'm not. I am however pasisonate about the topic and will always be so. I came here once to learn on TAM and now hope to teach other through my expereinces. I am not angry with my x wife anymore. I don't think much about her as a person, wife or mother but I'm not angry. Any resentment I have, any regret I have is only with myself for marrying her in the first place.

Many of us have lost lots due to infidelity. Sometimes when you loose something you can get it back. Sometimes you can't. And I dont just mean with the person your married to. I divorced my x wife but what happend has changed FOREVER the way I view relationships. This one act was the greatest emotional struggle i have had in my entire life so its disheartening to hear people make little jokes and light of the situation. To me that jusst reeks more of the other sidde just doesnt get it.
If this was about CSA no one would make jokes
If this was about Adult abuse no one would make jokes
I don't for a second find anything about the pain people go through as funny


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Wolf and Vel, I'm not sure how you guys read this interaction and came to the conclusion that EI was being anything except friendly.



KingwoodKev said:


> On the "don't judge me thing" the cheaters can go to hell. I will judge them as a despicable human being. What they fail to accept is that they entered into a the most sacred commitment a human being can ever enter into in their lives and they chose to crap all over it. I don't even know how they can regain a shred of integrity. Maybe they never can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I dont know that I woud make the assumpption he is angry at all about it.


You are correct. Do I despise cheating and the hurt it causes? Absolutely.

Am I angry, no. Why should I be? The source of my anger is gone. But to some on the cheating side of the fence, our disgust at the topic of cheating is just "resentment and bitterness". Oh well. 





> Many of us have lost lots due to infidelity. Sometimes when you loose something you can get it back. Sometimes you can't.


Absolutely. Seems those that would make the assumptions, especially those that haven't lost what most of us have and those that are the ones that caused the pain and destruction, don't realize, taking me as an example, lost time with my kids. I don't get to see them every day. I don't get to tuck them in every night. Get cheated on, lose the ability to have your children live with you, and pay the X for that privilege to boot.....then come back and talk to me.

But honestly, I'm doing fine with all of that. But those not in my shoes don't get to make those incorrect assumptions about me, especially when they were the ones that gratified themselves outside of their marriage.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Wolf and Vel, I'm not sure how you guys read this interaction and came to the conclusion that EI was being anything except friendly.


My reply to Kev, whether she believes it or not, was in reference to a particular group of W's, whoever they may be, that seem to be able to get some BS's banned for piddly little reasons.

I was trying to get Kev to temper his responses before he gets reported.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

vellocet said:


> My reply to Kev, whether she believes it or not, was in reference to a particular group of W's, whoever they may be, that seem to be able to get some BS's banned for piddly little reasons.
> 
> I was trying to get Kev to temper his responses before he gets reported.


:iagree: And that is exactly the way I saw it. Not directed at EI but others, as she has always been one to not beat around the bush and report someone on the sly, but instead confront and deal directly with them. I have great respect for her for standing up for her, B1 , and others and not taking the lower cowards way out and just reporting someone rather than address it directly (especially in cases like the quoted which are not really derogatory or directly aimed at a poster(s) but the way someone currently feels due to their recent pain, and something that may subside a bit as they heal.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Wolf and Vel, I'm not sure how you guys read this interaction and came to the conclusion that EI was being anything except friendly.


GB Shaw once said that a sense of humor was the sign of a mature mind.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> GB Shaw once said that a sense of humor was the sign of a mature mind.


So is reasonable understanding of both sides of an argument....I think we all know where you fall on that


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Wolf and Vel, I'm not sure how you guys read this interaction and came to the conclusion that EI was being anything except friendly.


I was only remarking to the notion of making light of a painful situation. Nothing she specifically said. If I was referencing that I would have quoted it for clarity


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> GB Shaw once said that a sense of humor was the sign of a mature mind.


Nice try


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

michzz said:


> Is airing the truth, being remorseful, not blameshifting, responding to a BS's questions, and attempting restitution considered "groveling"?





Rookie4 said:


> Nope. It's not. But it must be voluntary. Attempting to force it, isn't a good thing. This is one area that I agree with the Harley's about. Positive Re-enforcement works better than browbeating and punishment.


So if a BS draws a line in the sand and won't continue without candor, is that punishment? Or repeatedly bringing up the affair while a disloyal spouse avoids the issue, is that browbeating?

I'me trying to understand


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Jung_admirer said:


> Nevertheless, when you betray someone and choose to make amends .... You must go to where they are...* You know they feel violated, and you as a WS do not get to negotiate down their level of violation.* This minimization is the worst form of self-protection at the expense of the BS.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> You should go to Marriage Builders to find out.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

michzz said:


> Is airing the truth, being remorseful, not blameshifting, responding to a BS's questions, and attempting restitution considered "groveling"?


No, it's not groveling, it's absolutely essential in order to begin the process of healing for both spouses. 



Rookie4 said:


> Nope. It's not. But it must be voluntary. Attempting to force it, isn't a good thing. This is one area that I agree with the Harley's about. Positive Re-enforcement works better than browbeating and punishment.


Exactly, it must be voluntary. 



michzz said:


> So if a BS draws a line in the sand and won't continue without candor, is that punishment? Or repeatedly bringing up the affair while a disloyal spouse avoids the issue, is that browbeating?
> 
> I'm trying to understand


If a BS draws a line in the sand and won't continue without candor, (that they are not receiving from their WS) then they are punishing _themselves_ by staying. If a BS wants/needs to discuss the affair and the WS avoids the issue, the BS is wasting their own time. If a BS has to continuously browbeat their WS into participating in the so called reconciliation, it's not a reconciliation. 

I've never backed off in saying that B1 and I _both_ had work to do in order to build a new marriage. I know that we wouldn't be together today unless we had both participated in our reconciliation. But, having endured many years of an unhappy marriage, I can't even begin to imagine why anyone would choose to remain in a marriage, after infidelity, and NOT do whatever was necessary to help mend themselves, their partners, and their relationship. At that point, if both spouses' hearts are not going to be fully vested in the recovery process, then they need to call it day and move on.

If a BS has to cajole, bargain, beg, plead, demand, or threaten their WS to participate in the effort to heal their BS, hence their relationship, just STOP. I can honestly say that I wanted to help B1 heal from my infidelity, before either of us even knew if we wanted to reconcile. He was always going to be the father of my children. He was always going to be the man who I had spent 30 years of my life with. I just happened to be incredibly blessed that he was just as concerned with my healing. And, we fell in love, again!


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

michzz said:


> So if a BS draws a line in the sand and won't continue without candor, is that punishment? Or repeatedly bringing up the affair while a disloyal spouse avoids the issue, is that browbeating?
> 
> I'me trying to understand


 1. No. 2. Depends on the situation. If the BS is continually bringing up the affair, BECAUSE the WS is avoiding it, then no it isn't browbeating. If the BS continually brings the affair up and the WS has been honest and remorseful, then yes it is browbeating. But, of course you have a lot of posters who think that the WS cannot be punished enough.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


>


Then look it up for yourself, and don't ask me about it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


>


BTW, I would like to thank you for comparing me to Mr. Durning, a war hero, good soldier, and fine Gentleman, who I had the pleasure of meeting a few years back, in Las Vegas. His death was a serious tragedy for the entertainment community.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

That's Durning singing, "Oooooh I like to dance a little sidestep" Was most fitting seeing as you put something out there, then when someone asks you about it, a side steppin' you will go. Take responsibility for what you post or don't waste our time.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

vellocet said:


> That's Durning singing, "Oooooh I like to dance a little sidestep" Was most fitting seeing as you put something out there, then when someone asks you about it, a side steppin' you will go. Take responsibility for what you post or don't waste our time.


 Are you actually trying to say something funny? Good for you. LOL


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

The one thing I like about you is that though you are always wrong...you are persistent. One of these days you might get it right.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, it's MR. Durning, show a little respect.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, it's MR. Durning, show a little respect.


Why, thank you for clarifying that the man is, unequivocally, NOT Mrs. Durning. Whew! Glad that's all cleared up!

As for what you said above about Vellocet "trying to be funny"... no, he's really not. He stated you have sidestepped, a lot. And you have. But if you think sidestepping is funny, that explains a lot.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> The one thing I like about you is that though you are always wrong...you are persistent. One of these days you might get it right.


Always wrong? Really? No, but what I quoted is an obvious attempt to bait him.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

vellocet appears angry and even bitter sometimes, me as well, but he is accurate more often than not.

Peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Why, thank you for clarifying that the man is, unequivocally, NOT Mrs. Durning. Whew! Glad that's all cleared up!
> 
> As for what you said above about Vellocet "trying to be funny"... no, he's really not. He stated you have sidestepped, a lot. And you have. But if you think sidestepping is funny, that explains a lot.


No, it's Mister Durning, instead of just Durning. Where I come from, if you use a person's last name by itself, without adding Mr., Mrs., Miss, or Ms, it is considered rude.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Always wrong? Really? No, but what I quoted is an obvious attempt to bait him.


Nope. Not trying to "bait" anybody. And I've never side stepped anything and don't intend on starting. I just won't play the BS blame game and respond to constant, immature and loaded questions. Ask me a straight, honest, question and I will answer . Ask me a snarky passive aggressive one and you will get the same right back at you. Look, Maricha, if you and Vellocet don't like me and my answers , put me on ignore, it won't hurt my feelings one little bit.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Nope. Not trying to "bait" anybody. And I've never side stepped anything and don't intend on starting. I just won't play the BS blame game and respond to constant, immature and loaded questions. Ask me a straight, honest, question and I will answer . Ask me a snarky passive aggressive one and you will get the same right back at you. Look, Maricha, if you and Vellocet don't like me and my answers , put me on ignore, it won't hurt my feelings one little bit.


The problem here, Rookie, is that you're not only pissing off some BS, but some former WS as well. It's not about playing the BS blame game. It's about using your brain and not playing both sides... and not making comments that you know will get people, both BS and WS alike, pissed off. That is exactly what TROLLS do. And, since I really don't believe you to be a troll, I have to wonder what you get out of behaving like one.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> No, it's Mister Durning, instead of just Durning. Where I come from, if you use a person's last name by itself, without adding Mr., Mrs., Miss, or Ms, it is considered rude.


So, you must say "Mr. Shakespeare", "Mr. Yeats", and the like? And I always hated being called "Miss ____" before I married. Even now, I prefer being called by my first name or screen names (online). "Mrs. ______" is my mother-in-law. Just like my dad always said "Mr. ____" was my dad.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> BTW, it's MR. Durning, show a little respect.


We could say the same for your posts directed at other posters. We all have screen names we have chosen and yet you seem to think that shortening them is doing something (other than saving you a few keystrokes) to create a "kinship" of short so it would seem that vel, squeak, chap, el, philly, and the like would seem to deserve the same respect of a full screen name at the minimum that you are requesting here and for the same reason.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> We could say the same for your posts directed at other posters. We all have screen names we have chosen and yet you seem to think that shortening them is doing something (other than saving you a few keystrokes) to create a "kinship" of short so it would seem that vel, squeak, chap, el, philly, and the like would seem to deserve the same respect of a full screen name at the minimum that you are requesting here and for the same reason.


Some have even called me "Mari"... maybe I should start saying "It's Maricha75 (stress the 75)"


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> ...that vel, squeak, chap, el, philly, and the like would seem to deserve the same respect of a full screen name at the minimum that you are requesting here and for the same reason.





Maricha75 said:


> Some have even called me "Mari"... maybe I should start saying "It's Maricha75 (stress the 75)"


Uh oh. I'm terrible at name shortening. vel, sqkr, el, PG, chap, and M75. It's probably not as annoying as my spelling and grammatical errors though.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> The one thing I like about you is that though you are always wrong...you are persistent. One of these days you might get it right.


Amazing how childish your posts can be. If you are incapable of looking at all sides of an argument then of course everyone is wrong........

It's the foot stop, red face, clenched fist yelling I'm right and everyone is wrong cause I said so argument. My 6 year old had this down pat.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Since this thread has become so off topic that it isn't even funny, I have a question.

Who is this "Team Wayward?"


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Since this thread has become so off topic that it isn't even funny, I have a question.
> 
> Who is this "Team Wayward?"


Yea I wonder that too. I'm not sure inventing teams is useful to objective discussion. .


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Yea I wonder that too. I'm not sure inventing teams is useful to objective discussion. .


I just want to know if I am on this team or not. If I am, no one informed me. There are no meetings, no chatting....I feel so left out.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ultra secret society stuff.&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Since this thread has become so off topic that it isn't even funny, I have a question.
> 
> Who is this "Team Wayward?"


Anyone who does not think that a WS should not be executed or thinks that a bad marriage could have contributed to the A in any way.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I just want to know if I am on this team or not. If I am, no one informed me. There are no meetings, no chatting....I feel so left out.


Well with all secret organizations they can't really advertise it. Maybe you just need to learn the secret handshake or something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> I just want to know if I am on this team or not. If I am, no one informed me. There are no meetings, no chatting....I feel so left out.


You didn't get the memo?


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> The problem here, Rookie, is that you're not only pissing off some BS, but some former WS as well. It's not about playing the BS blame game. It's about using your brain and not playing both sides... and not making comments that you know will get people, both BS and WS alike, pissed off. That is exactly what TROLLS do. And, since I really don't believe you to be a troll, I have to wonder what you get out of behaving like one.


OK, I get it...you don't like me.....carry on.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So, you must say "Mr. Shakespeare", "Mr. Yeats", and the like? And I always hated being called "Miss ____" before I married. Even now, I prefer being called by my first name or screen names (online). "Mrs. ______" is my mother-in-law. Just like my dad always said "Mr. ____" was my dad.


It is a Southern thing, so I don't expect many Yankees would understand. Calling a person by his last name, without the Honorific, is how Blacks were treated, and implies a lower social status. It is just something I find rude and distasteful. I suppose that in modern society, people don't mind, but I've always tried to be as respectful as possible when talking about my Elders and others.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> We could say the same for your posts directed at other posters. We all have screen names we have chosen and yet you seem to think that shortening them is doing something (other than saving you a few keystrokes) to create a "kinship" of short so it would seem that vel, squeak, chap, el, philly, and the like would seem to deserve the same respect of a full screen name at the minimum that you are requesting here and for the same reason.


You are absolutely right, and it never occurred to me. I apologize and will not ever do it again. From now on, I will always use the full screen name.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Amazing how childish your posts can be. If you are incapable of looking at all sides of an argument then of course everyone is wrong........
> 
> It's the foot stop, red face, clenched fist yelling I'm right and everyone is wrong cause I said so argument. My 6 year old had this down pat.


OK, I can count you as another poster who doesn't like me or my posts......I'm alright with it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

In an effort (probably wasted) to get this thread back on track...........To refer to the opening post. This implies that the BS is always superior to the WS, who subsequently requires guidance. The WS simply doesn't "get it" and, of course, the BS does. So it is up to the OTHER BS's to repeatedly make the WS aware of how truly despicable they are, and boy , oh boy ...do they. They call it "tough Love" and other names , but it amounts to the same thing. It is perfectly alright for BS's to post page after page after page of venom at a WS, but if the WS objects... he/she doesn't "get it" or is evil, so these same posters will repeat the venom, until the WS either agrees with them or leaves. All on the Theory that if you beat a dead horse long enough and hard enough, it will come back to life. 
At the same time , demanding that all of our compassion and understanding be reserved for the BS, as the WS isn't (because of their cheating) entitled to any.
The number of WS posters are few and getting fewer, pretty soon, we, BS's will only have ourselves to talk to. that will be a sad day for TAM.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> It is a Southern thing, so I don't expect many Yankees would understand. Calling a person by his last name, without the Honorific, is how Blacks were treated, and implies a lower social status. It is just something I find rude and distasteful. I suppose that in modern society, people don't mind, but I've always tried to be as respectful as possible when talking about my Elders and others.


So, wait, I need to get this straight here. It is NOT OK to call someone by only the last name because you think it is "rude"... but it is PERFECTLY fine to refer to someone else by a traditionally derogatory word because, after all, I am not a southerner? The funny thing about that is you don't know whether I have ever lived in the South. You don't know my family background, only that I said my dad never liked being called "Mr.", that "Mr." was my grandfather. As far as what it may or may not imply by only using a last name or even a shortened version of a screen name, it only means that if you APPLY that reasoning to it. YOU choose to view it that way, only because you get some kind of pleasure out of arguing with some members, like vellocet. You had nothing constructive to discuss, so you chose to find fault with that. Funny how people do that all the time on here, yet nothing has been said to them. Only to vellocet, now. So, no, it's not a "Southern thing". It's a "Rookie needs something to argue about thing."


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> So, wait, I need to get this straight here. It is NOT OK to call someone by only the last name because you think it is "rude"... but it is PERFECTLY fine to refer to someone else by a traditionally derogatory word because, after all, I am not a southerner? The funny thing about that is you don't know whether I have ever lived in the South. You don't know my family background, only that I said my dad never liked being called "Mr.", that "Mr." was my grandfather. As far as what it may or may not imply by only using a last name or even a shortened version of a screen name, it only means that if you APPLY that reasoning to it. YOU choose to view it that way, only because you get some kind of pleasure out of arguing with some members, like vellocet. You had nothing constructive to discuss, so you chose to find fault with that. Funny how people do that all the time on here, yet nothing has been said to them. Only to vellocet, now. So, no, it's not a "Southern thing". It's a "Rookie needs something to argue about thing."


 OK, I hear you.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> OK, I can count you as another poster who doesn't like me or my posts......I'm alright with it.


Lol. Not falling for it anymore more likel . Most here come from different views and are trying to share their experience and learn from others. You demean others and stir the pot. We try to engage you in questions and you side step and backtrack. You literally contirbute nothing. That's why I have encouraged others to not even engage you. It's clear you're agenda driven


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Lol. Not falling for it anymore more likel . Most here come from different views and are trying to share their experience and learn from others. You demean others and stir the pot. We try to engage you in questions and you side step and backtrack. You literally contirbute nothing. That's why I have encouraged others to not even engage you. It's clear you're agenda driven


Lets get back to the thread. You and Maricha75 are perfectly free to believe what you want. I'm not going to argue the point with you any further. So leave it alone. If you continue, then it will be you who are looking for trouble, not me.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

If you are going to "guide" WS's, you need to find out their situation, in order to know how. It would be silly for me to advise EI, for example, because my situation is completely different from hers and B1's. What my wife did, was not at all what EI did, so how can I give EI the proper "guidance".
No two affairs are the same, so applying blanket criticism, isn't helpful.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Lets get back to the thread. You and Maricha75 are perfectly free to believe what you want. I'm not going to argue the point with you any further. So leave it alone. If you continue, then it will be you who are looking for trouble, not me.


Rookie we are here addressing the topic. Not how to properly address someone and making insults. As you say stay on topic


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

staystrong said:


> One of the many complaints by BS's is that waywards just don't seem to "get it" while in an affair, or during R and going through withdrawals of the AP.
> 
> I lurk on a board which has WS's and OW/OM's posting on it, and it's really true. Other posters will provide advice, and BS's often provide critical advice (sometimes harsh) in order to be a voice of that wayward's own BS. It surprises me (and doesn't surprise me) how often the WS will say "thanks for opening my eyes" to things we would take as common sense. This includes the selfish actions of the AP, the WS, and the extent of hurt of the BS. Many WS's think that just by "staying" they are doing enough. Clearly, that's never enough, or even close to enough, and will never lead to a true R. They often seem lost, and have no clue how painful it would be if their BS's were reading the very self-absorbed threads they are writing.* The "don't judge me" threads if you know what I mean.*
> 
> I'm writing this for any current BS's lurking on TAM. Through your shock, just remember to spell it all out.


I thought it worth requoting the original post


It seems the only way to truly affect change is when the person, the AP or the WS recognizes I am doing something wrong and I need to correct course and come clean. If they come here to garner support or as the OP says don't judge me then you can't guide them at all. You can't help a person who doesn't want to be helped.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> > Lets get back to the thread. You and Maricha75 are perfectly free to believe what you want. I'm not going to argue the point with you any further. So leave it alone. If you continue, then it will be you who are looking for trouble, not me.
> ...


Wrong. Rookie is avoiding your questions as he has in the past and he has decided thisbis a thread Jack now after his pages of insulting others and arguing it, os bow it is done as he says so. He wasn't trolling before (by his thoughts which seem to be alone that counts) when he did the same but now if you continue down that path you are trolling because he has said so. 

Also for the record in the military ,and other law enforcement government situations, it is common practice to use only a laStill name. The inclusion of a title is something that is old school showing of appreciation for elders and not something being taught or demanded by thr elder's as much in this day (and not something that originated or is reserved for the south) .


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Wrong. Rookie is avoiding your questions as he has in the past and he has decided thisbis a thread Jack now after his pages of insulting others and arguing it, os bow it is done as he says so. He wasn't trolling before (by his thoughts which seem to be alone that counts) when he did the same but now if you continue down that path you are trolling because he has said so.
> 
> Also for the record in the military ,and other law enforcement government situations, it is common practice to use only a laStill name. The inclusion of a title is something that is old school showing of appreciation for elders and not something being taught or demanded by thr elder's as much in this day (and not something that originated or is reserved for the south) .


I guess I can't win, can I. LOL If I argue my points , I'm Baiting. If I agree, I'm sidestepping. I apologized for shortening your username, and you still won't let it go. I have tried to get back on topic and now I'm avoiding. Let's just show who is still trying to argue.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Wrong. Rookie is avoiding your questions as he has in the past and he has decided thisbis a thread Jack now after his pages of insulting others and arguing it, os bow it is done as he says so. He wasn't trolling before (by his thoughts which seem to be alone that counts) when he did the same but now if you continue down that path you are trolling because he has said so.
> 
> Also for the record in the military ,and other law enforcement government situations, it is common practice to use only a laStill name. The inclusion of a title is something that is old school showing of appreciation for elders and not something being taught or demanded by thr elder's as much in this day (and not something that originated or is reserved for the south) .


You are wrong about the military and Law Enforcement. The full name is used, NEVER, EVER, just the last name. In the Military, it would be impossible, because of the number of persons with the same last name, (examples are Jones, Smith, etc) plus the RANK of the individual is ALWAYS used. In Law Enforcement, you MUST have the full name for legal , court purposes, for the same reasons, and to avoid arresting or detaining the wrong person. 
Plus, you are also wrong about the use of the honorifics. In my kids school, a child was not permitted to call anybody by just their last name, and to always speak with respect.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

SSidesteping. Never asked for apology or anything relating to shortened names just pointed out the hypocrisy of your complaint as it was stated. 

Also not arguing just pointing out the truth (once again you side stepping issues by claiming arguments exist that weren't there as it was just a comment made to wolf, so how -an that seem to be an argument with you?. You never agreed to what wolf was saying just ended the discussion and said it was over and that any further mention was trolling (sorry you don't get to dictate what is said or not said) even though you had pages of doing the same.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Wrong. Rookie is avoiding your questions as he has in the past and he has decided thisbis a thread Jack now after his pages of insulting others and arguing it, os bow it is done as he says so. He wasn't trolling before (by his thoughts which seem to be alone that counts) when he did the same but now if you continue down that path you are trolling because he has said so.
> ...


Not wrong. Once again your interpretations are not the only thing at play or count. In day to day conversation it is generally last name only. Rank included at times when issues of respect are needed but in field situations it is generally last name only. Same with law enforcement. Yes in naming legal documents full names are used but rarely in day to day interaction at best it is rank and last name but generally last name only. Rarely within a unit do you have several with the same last name. Believe me as as a disabled military and war veteran, last names are what is used most of the time in field and garrison. Only friends used first names and in certain situations it was rank and last name but that was only generally in more formal situations or mixed rank settings. It is easier to bark an order "Smith clear the room" than using complete names. But believe what you will, I have experienced it for years.


Funny though that I present the truth withoufht insulting you and telling you directly that you are wrong. Do you get something from always telling people they are wrong just because their experiences are not yours? Sorry doesn't make you right and them wrong just shows differences. No one asked you about your experiences and drew the difference between right and wrong based solely upon only your experiences. Ehh. What would I known I only eoemthibg years living it (in fact to this day there are several that I served with that I have no idea that their first name is as it was never used or discussed unless we were close friends.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

How did I end up on the side of agreeing with Squeakr? 
Two uncles, my dad, as well as many friends in the military, not to mention friends in law enforcement... Squeakr is correct about using the last name.

It's ok, Rookie, we can look at this as guiding your wayward thinking.


----------



## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

For the love of TAM, are there not some seriously troubled marriages that could be benefitting from all of the sage wisdom that so many of the seasoned TAM veterans, on this very thread, could be providing? 

Some of these comments appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Not wrong. Once again your interpretations are not the only thing at play or count. In day to day conversation it is generally last name only. Rank included at times when issues of respect are needed but in field situations it is generally last name only. Same with law enforcement. Yes in naming legal documents full names are used but rarely in day to day interaction at best it is rank and last name but generally last name only. Rarely within a unit do you have several with the same last name. Believe me as as a disabled military and war veteran, last names are what is used most of the time in field and garrison. Only friends used first names and in certain situations it was rank and last name but that was only generally in more formal situations or mixed rank settings. It is easier to bark an order "Smith clear the room" than using complete names. But believe what you will, I have experienced it for years.
> 
> 
> Funny though that I present the truth withoufht insulting you and telling you directly that you are wrong. Do you get something from always telling people they are wrong just because their experiences are not yours? Sorry doesn't make you right and them wrong just shows differences. No one asked you about your experiences and drew the difference between right and wrong based solely upon only your experiences. Ehh. What would I known I only eoemthibg years living it (in fact to this day there are several that I served with that I have no idea that their first name is as it was never used or discussed unless we were close friends.


I too, am a war veteran and I think you are wrong. I agree that in person, you can and do use last names, but only among friends. You never refer to somebody you are not familiar with by their last name only. It's name and rank. The same with Cops, you use last names only for friends , not for other officers. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that Vellocet and Charles Durning are friends.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Not wrong. Once again your interpretations are not the only thing at play or count. In day to day conversation it is generally last name only. Rank included at times when issues of respect are needed but in field situations it is generally last name only. Same with law enforcement. Yes in naming legal documents full names are used but rarely in day to day interaction at best it is rank and last name but generally last name only. Rarely within a unit do you have several with the same last name. Believe me as as a disabled military and war veteran, last names are what is used most of the time in field and garrison. Only friends used first names and in certain situations it was rank and last name but that was only generally in more formal situations or mixed rank settings. It is easier to bark an order "Smith clear the room" than using complete names. But believe what you will, I have experienced it for years.
> 
> 
> Funny though that I present the truth withoufht insulting you and telling you directly that you are wrong. Do you get something from always telling people they are wrong just because their experiences are not yours? Sorry doesn't make you right and them wrong just shows differences. No one asked you about your experiences and drew the difference between right and wrong based solely upon only your experiences. Ehh. What would I known I only eoemthibg years living it (in fact to this day there are several that I served with that I have no idea that their first name is as it was never used or discussed unless we were close friends.


Exactly my point, you are talking about friends, not individuals in other units. Don't believe me? Try doing it. Go up to an officer, NCO, or somebody you don't know and say "hey , you Jones, come here", and see what it gets you. If it's an officer or NCO, it will get you an AR-15, if it's somebody you are not friends with , it will get you told off. You only use last names among friends. and you know it.


----------



## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EI said:


> For the love of TAM, are there not some seriously troubled marriages that could be benefitting from all of the sage wisdom that so many of the seasoned TAM veterans, on this very thread, could be providing?
> 
> Some of these comments appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing. I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.


EI, you and B1 take care of yourselves. I'm done . It's like Don Cherry said, " It's hard to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys". See Ya.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly my point, you are talking about friends, not individuals in other units. Don't believe me? Try doing it. Go up to an officer, NCO, or somebody you don't know and say "hey , you Jones, come here", and see what it gets you. If it's an officer or NCO, it will get you an AR-15, if it's somebody you are not friends with , it will get you told off. You only use last names among friends. and you know it.


Go back and read the post again, please, Rookie. Squeakr CLEARLY stated that full names (meaning first and last names) were used among friends. Other than that, it was last name, or rank and last name.

Regardless, EI is right. This thread has basically turned into arguing for the sake of arguing. My knowledge on the current topic comes from career military officer as well as enlisted personnel. Apparently, their experience is very different from yours, Rookie... even from 40+ years ago. Either way, it's ridiculous to feel the need to reprimand simply because some guy was referred to as Durning, rather than Mr. Durning. I honestly had no clue who he was until I googled him. Even then... he was just a man, like any other man. 

So, back to the topic of the thread... if it can even be drawn back in...


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> You are wrong about the military and Law Enforcement. The full name is used, NEVER, EVER, just the last name. In the Military, it would be impossible, because of the number of persons with the same last name, (examples are Jones, Smith, etc) plus the RANK of the individual is ALWAYS used. In Law Enforcement, you MUST have the full name for legal , court purposes, for the same reasons, and to avoid arresting or detaining the wrong person.
> Plus, you are also wrong about the use of the honorifics. In my kids school, a child was not permitted to call anybody by just their last name, and to always speak with respect.


Good gravey. Where the heck do you get this notion you know everything. I have been actually in law enforcement for 14 years. My name tag appears my first inital and last name. I would never nor should any officer have thier full legal name on thier name tag. That is beyond dangerous. Stop spinning this thread out of control. You are just making crap up now.


----------



## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> It's like Don Cherry said, " It's hard to soar like an eagle, when you are surrounded by turkeys".


Oh the irony...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> Since this thread has become so off topic that it isn't even funny, I have a question.
> 
> Who is this "Team Wayward?"


Don't know who it all consists of, just my guesses and I will keep that to myself.

But Team Wayward, to me, is a collection, large, small, or maybe even just a couple of people that seemed to be successful in getting some BS's banned even for the most petty things.



pidge70 said:


> I just want to know if I am on this team or not. If I am, no one informed me. There are no meetings, no chatting....I feel so left out.


You most definitely are NOT.


----------



## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Exactly my point, you are talking about friends, not individuals in other units. Don't believe me? Try doing it. Go up to an officer, NCO, or somebody you don't know and say "hey , you Jones, come here", and see what it gets you. If it's an officer or NCO, it will get you an AR-15, if it's somebody you are not friends with , it will get you told off. You only use last names among friends. and you know it.


Maybe within your service things were handled differently, but within mine it was an acceptable practice and the preferred method to deploy as long as the individual was of your rank or subordinate. In fact it was the taught method from bootcamp on. Of course we all had to wear rank and name tapes with our last names on them on all of our uniforms (except the dress units and then some had those as well, and in those cases we generally referred to the person by rank only while making eye contact so they knew you were addressing them) so it was easy to be certain whom you were talking to. 

We were an active it and the most decorated unit within the service, so I do speak from some experience about the quickness of it and why it was acceptable. Yes it was fine and accepted to approach others that were subordinate or equal your rank and address them by last name only (in fact when first names were used, you knew the people involved were friends and that was about the only way to know that). I did it many times, so once again your experience was not mine, but doesn't mean yours is the only one that is right or correct (once again if someone has different experiences or results from you then they are wrong, please at some point get over yourself being the model that exemplifies everything and those not sharing your ideals and experiences being forever wrong)! I did mention using rank when showing respect, which was with any rank higher than you, so once again arguing a point that doesn't exist, as I eliminated the officer, or higher ranking issue from my argument prior to you even pointing it out.

For the record it is Ar. 15, Art. 15, or Article 15 and not AR-15, as that is the civilian equivalent of a M16 rifle (and our service would never hand out such things (unless you did so at a ceremony or parade setting), they would just take one out back and handle it Non-Judicially (NJP, non-judicial punishment).


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

free524 said:


> Sadly it's been reported multiple times that if their was absolutely no way of their spouse figuring it out, the majority of married people said that they would cheat on their spouses. That was the issue these women and cheaters like them. They thought they weren't going to get caught. More so, if they did get caught, they thought their spouses would forgive them. At the end of the day, the downfall of many cheaters is their arrogance.


Or in some cases, they don't care whether they get caught because they are tired of being married to the person they are currently married to.


----------

