# My wife asked for a divorce. Please help.



## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Good morning to everyone. This weekend (10/6/12) my wife asked me for a divorce. I was absolutely heartbroken. We have had this discussion before and we have gone to counseling. Things got better for a while, but eventually, both of us stopped doing what we said we would do from counseling. 

Here is my back story:

My wife and I met while she was in college. Her school was over 300 miles away, but we made it work for a year and a half long distance. When she moved her, she immediately moved in with me. We were engaged shortly after. We bought a house and planned to have a kid. Well, the economy tanked and I lost my company and eventually our house. We had our daughter 3 months before we lost the house. I was unemployed for a year before I got a job (where I currently am) in the same field that my company was in. During that year of unemployment, we fought a lot. I could not find a job and did not feel as if I was the man that I needed to be to provide for my family. I was depressed (without knowing it. Looking back on it, I think i never really got out of that depression) and I withdrew a lot from my family. I We rented a place and started trying to piece together our lives. My wife stayed home with our daughter and I worked full time. My wife asked for a separation and we went to counseling. She said that she felt alone and that I was not there for her. We did not do things together any more. We made an action plan to change some of those concerns and we left counseling stronger for it. 

Unfortunately, it did not last. The two of us both got wrapped up in our normal day to day and became complacent. Mostly on my part. I would come home and want to relax. I put her and our marriage on the bottom wrung of the importance ladder and over time it has worn her down. 

She came to me on Saturday and said that she is no longer in love with me. She loves me, but does not feel in love with me. She says that she wants a divorce. We are still living together and we still see each other every day. I have moved my bed into the guest room for the time being. 

We talked a little about it during the day and then went to a family members house. That night we watched TV together and she said "this just does not feel real".

Yesterday, she had an appointment with her best friend to try on bridesmaids dresses. She was there from 10 - 3. She got home and said "I have to leave soon, (her friend) wants to meet and talk about more stuff around here)". I say ok, and my daughter and I continue to play. She leaves at 4:30 and by 7:00 has not called me back. I call her friend to find out that she was not with her! I put the pieces together and know that she is with someone else. I ask her when she gets home (i was not rude, angry, etc) and she admits that she went out with a guy for coffee. This was a first time thing (i know for sure, since she is NEVER away from me or my daughter). I know that it is someone she met in her running group, though. She does not like any one at her job, so the only place would be there. 

I get upset and say that I am leaving to spend the night at my familys house. I never yelled at her or anything. I showed that it hurt me, but that is it. We talked for a little bit and she said that she has been lonely for so long. I told her that I know that I have not been attentive to her. I told her that i have not been the husband that she needs or deserves. I told her (after a lot of soul searching and reflection) that I think that I am not the person that I was because I am not the person that I want to be. I hate my job, I am not happy with where we are in our lives, I am not happy that I lost my business and house. I feel inadequate to her. I told her that I know that there are things that I need to do for myself to become a better person. I need to do them not for her, but for myself. I have already found another job (in a different field, which I enjoy) and am starting to try to do other things to improve my own self esteem and satisfaction. 

I talked to her for a while last night about this. She told me that she loves me. She was crying the whole time. She told me that she wants that person to be me that makes her feel happy and loved. She told me she still thinks we need a separation for a while. I told her that I am going to go to counseling and try to fix myself. She asked to digest all of this. I told her that I appreciated that she told me about the coffee that she had with the guy, but would have rather her told me from the get go. She told me she did not want to rub it in my face. She went to bed without another word that night. 

This morning, she went running at our gym (not the running group) and when she got home, she took a shower. I, stupidly, checked her phone text and saw that her and the guy texted this morning. She told him that she was happy because she was thought of him and that she had a great time. he said he did too and that he can not wait to see her this weekend (her running group). 

I called a counselor this morning and made an appointment. The counselor wanted both of us there, so I called the wife and asked her. She said she would go, but that she is not promising anything. I told her I understand. 

That is my story. 

Things to note:

I am reading 'The Divorce Remedy' by Michele Weiner Davis and I have read and saved the 180 plan. 

Please give me some guidance and help. I love my wife more than anything in the world. I do not want to separate. I think i need to show her that I can still be the man that she loved. I need to show her that I can treat her the way that she deserves. She needs to be a priority to me, which I finally see. I want to take her somewhere just the two of us and try to reconnect. Is that a bad idea? I know the 180 says no romantic trips.

Thank you all.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

I think at this point you should definitely show her your best side and don't resist anything she says. She is looking for ways to justify leaving you and being with the guy. Try not to give her any justification.

Another person in her life is very difficult to overcome. That new spark, the freshness, the feeling of being loved and touched again is darn near impossible for you to counter. You may just have to let it run its course until she finds flaws in him while seeing none in you. Then she will come around.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you for your response. 

She just emailed me back saying "I think I’m set on my decision. But, of course, I would do this (therapy) for you. I still deeply respect and love you".


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Yeah. You might want to tell her "if you are set on your decision don't bother coming to therapy. thank you for loving me. thank you for the best years of my life. thank you for our child (if you have one together). I wish you well with your new lover."

And do not speak to her anymore. This will make her start thinking of you and make having fun with him more difficult.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Solon said:


> Yeah. You might want to tell her "if you are set on your decision don't bother coming to therapy. thank you for loving me. thank you for the best years of my life. thank you for our child (if you have one together). I wish you well with your new lover."
> 
> And do not speak to her anymore. This will make her start thinking of you and make having fun with him more difficult.


I took it as she thinks, but it is not set in stone yet. I dont want to move out, but i can leave and stay at a family members house if I need to. i just do not want to give her the ability to go and see this person more. It will make it that much harder to reconcile.

I hope she is willing to go to therapy and give it an honest attempt.

I appreciate your responses. I do not know what I would do right now without this site.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Make sure you bring up the om in this session. After this one I would not do another until she goes nc. If you know who this guy is expose him if he has gf or wife.Bring it to the light of day.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You stay in the house let her leave!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

tom67 said:


> Make sure you bring up the om in this session. After this one I would not do another until she goes nc. If you know who this guy is expose him if he has gf or wife.Bring it to the light of day.


I am sorry what is OM and NC?

I think the guy is single. 



tom67 said:


> You stay in the house let her leave!


There is that too. This is how it would probably go. She can go stay with her parents and I stay at home with our daughter.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

tom67 said:


> You stay in the house let her leave!


^This. Under no circumstances do you make her choice convenient for her.

And her going to counseling "for you" is a concession to relieve her of her guilt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

om=other man nc= no contact


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

There really is not much you can do IMO. She sounds like she has made up her mind. The whole thing sounds a lot like my situation. She feels neglected, ignored and is unhappy. Either because you didn't meet her expectations of showering her with attention or you didn't take her out enough <Insert other things she expected to make her happy here>. You blame yourself, but she has a hand in this as well. The problem sounds like she found someone who she can talk to about her problems with you. This tends to make a person feel connected to this other person. When you start confiding personal details of your life on an emotional level, you start to form an emotional connection. She may get the feeling that this other person understands her and is easier to talk to than you. Plus since this other person is new she has no idea about his issues or problems, but she knows you and all your faults. I wouldn't be surprised if she has been communicating with this guy for awhile. 

She thinks this new person will make her happy, but will find out down the road that is not the case. Love is something you feel when you do things for the other person. The more love you put into that person the more connected you feel. Sounds like she expected you to make her happy with no thought about you. How much did she do to show you love? Everyone gets unhappy at some point, but not everyone thinks they need another lover to make them happy again.

From what I read here the best course is to stop pleading and begging. Quit giving her things to discuss with this other guy. Let her go. The more you try to keep her the more she will want to leave. This seperation and/or divorce does not mean the end of the relationship. If you still love her down the road there is always a chance to win her back. But why would you? 

What makes me think she has feelings for someone else is the phrase "She loves me, but does not feel in love with me". There is no such thing. You either love someone or you don't. That 'in love feeling' is a illusion. Its the excitement of being with someone new and fresh. Something that will always fade after enough time together. Eventually all relationships go through this. If you love someone you put forth the commitment to make things work. 

Do a search for that phrase "Loves me, but not in love with me" on the net and you will see almost everyone agrees that 90% of the time someone else is in the picture. 

Hope that helps. Its tough when you love someone and they pull this on you.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> ^This. Under no circumstances do you make her choice convenient for her.
> 
> And her going to counseling "for you" is a concession to relieve her of her guilt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, should i say something like "do not go to counseling unless you really want to work on this. If it is guilt that is making you go, do not go. "



tom67 said:


> om=other man nc= no contact


Thanks.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Yeah, don't leave the house. And tell her NOT to come to therapy if she has her mind set. It will only be a train wreck. Show her your strength by telling her not to come. It will boggle her mind.

She is going to see him. You cannot stop that. You have to accept that painful truth. But if you allow it, it will end sooner than later.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, should i say something like "do not go to counseling unless you really want to work on this. If it is guilt that is making you go, do not go. "
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


I would just respond directly to what she has already told you. "Since you are set in your decision I see no reason for you to come to therapy. Please do not come. I will go and the help I need to take care of myself and our daughter. Thanks."

And that be it.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

thank you all. I just sent her this:

I understand how you feel, but if you are not willing to work on our marriage and are set in your decision, I do not think you should come to therapy. I do not want you to go just because you feel guilty. If you want to save what we have, by all means come to therapy. I will go to therapy today and get the help I need to take care of myself and our daughter.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Solon said:


> I would just respond directly to what she has already told you. "Since you are set in your decision I see no reason for you to come to therapy. Please do not come. I will go and the help I need to take care of myself and our daughter. Thanks."
> 
> And that be it.


Solon is giving you the best course of action her. It is also important that you say it exactly how he phrased it. Calm, cool, emotionless.

My stbxw "agreed" to MC and upon her arrival when asked what her goals were she said guidance on how to live seperately and coparenting. 

These things play out like a script on here. Have a look around. I bet yours won't lift a finger to work on your marriage too.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

i agree, she does not seem to want to do anything to fix it. I will post what she says shortly.

Thank you all.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Perfect! Now don't say anything else to her. Be strong. It will be HARD! But stick to it. She is internalizing it now.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

She replied with "I was going today with the desire to talk it out, but not work things out......

Would you still want me to go if that's the case?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> She replied with "I was going today with the desire to talk it out, but not work things out......
> 
> Would you still want me to go if that's the case?


Here's what will happen if you do go under those conditions.

In so many words, the MC more or less say there is not much he/she can do because working on it takes two.

Then presto, her actions and decision to leave you have been validated by a professional.

She "tried" but even the MC said there was no hope for your marriage.

Move on brother.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> She replied with "I was going today with the desire to talk it out, but not work things out......
> 
> Would you still want me to go if that's the case?


Simply tell her, "No."


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, i went to therapy by myself today. i feel a lot better. I talked about the problems that I have with my own self esteem and self worth (stemming from me losing my company and losing my house) and my feelings of inadequacy (from my not being able to support my family for over a year). I feel a lot better. i went to 2 therapists today. one was someone that works with Michele Weiner Davis at the Divorce Busting Telephone Coaching program and the other a traditional in person therapist. The Divorce Busting counselor really clicked with me. she showed me what i was doing wrong (pretty much spot on with what has been said here) and what i should be doing. i have to accept what is going to happen and understand that I can not control or force my wife to reconcile with me. I can change myself and hopefully, through small steps become a better man, father and hopefully husband. Only time will tell. 

I can not tell you how much i have learned and how much i appreciate everyone on here. You are all great. I will keep you updated with regular updates.

thanks!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, as you know, I went to therapy yesterday. I really feel much better. The ability to openly talk to someone about my problems without the fear of being judged was a great feeling. 

I started doing what the therapist said, which was the Last Resort Technique (essentially, the 180 plan) and so far I feel much better about the situation. I can not stop what is going to happen. If she leaves, she leaves. I love her and do not want that, but no amount of me pleading and showing weakness will change that. I realized that I need to change myself first and then slowly see if she notices and wants to try to work on our marriage. I hope bettering myself and becoming who i was before I got depressed and withdrew, she will see the person that she fell in love with again. But, at the end of the day, I need to do it for me and my daughter, which is what i plan to do. 

I have been happy since going to the therapist. I made sure that she sees me being happy and smiling. I want her to know that I am going to move on and I will be happy. I know that she has noticed that. I went to the gym lat night (unheard of for me. I HATE working out), but i know that to feel better about myself I have to get healthy. I went running for 30 minutes and did some miscellaneous exercises for another 20. Not much, but not bad for my first day. I am going to join a gym today. When i got home, she was very cordial with me, but all the walls were still up (which I expected). 

This morning, she asked me for the contact information for the counselor that I went to. She said that she wanted to go to the counselor for things for herself. I believe that she saw that I am happy and wants to feel the same way. Maybe she is curious on why I am happy and wants to see about the same thing. She also mentioned that she wanted to go together because "she wants to know how I feel", but again, not to necessarily work things out. I told her (based on the information given to me by my therapist) "I will go to the appointment with you to talk. I hear and understand what you are saying. I do not want a separation, but I do not want to stand in the way of your happiness". I do not think she expected that response from me. I tried to be as emotionless as possible, but not cold. She finished getting ready and she said good bye to me and left. 

I will continue to fight for her, but I will not beg, plead or negotiate. I will continue with the moving on part and hope that she gets on the train, if not, I will move on without her. Therapy made me realize that I am a great person, father and husband and that if she can not see that right now because she is blinded by her past feelings, un-met expectations of marriage or this other guy, there is nothing I can do to make her see it. I know that I ROYALLY screwed things up in my marriage and I take full responsibility for my actions and I vow to myself to change them. But, i know that it is not just me. I will continue to give her what she wants (space) and just focus on myself and my daughter. 

Thank you for listening. It has been nice to be able to get this off my chest.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> thank you all. I just sent her this:
> 
> I understand how you feel, but if you are not willing to work on our marriage and are set in your decision, I do not think you should come to therapy. I do not want you to go just because you feel guilty. If you want to save what we have, by all means come to therapy. I will go to therapy today and get the help I need to take care of myself and our daughter.


I am so glad to hear. I am keeping you in my prayers. I am going through a similar situation. My wife has moved out of the house and says the marriage is over. She has blocked my number to where I cannot call or text and is telling everyone we know that she does not want to reconcile or even see me at all.

All I can do at this point is wait. Waiting is so hard....and painful. But that is all we can do.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Solon said:


> I am so glad to hear. I am keeping you in my prayers. I am going through a similar situation. My wife has moved out of the house and says the marriage is over. She has blocked my number to where I cannot call or text and is telling everyone we know that she does not want to reconcile or even see me at all.
> 
> All I can do at this point is wait. Waiting is so hard....and painful. But that is all we can do.


Waiting is your first class ticket to hell.
J
All your wife's actions shout that she is divorcing you.

When people show you who they are, it is best to believe them.

The sooner you place your emotions in line with her actions, the sooner you will be free to live a life that you deserve.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Waiting is your first class ticket to hell.
> J
> All your wife's actions shout that she is divorcing you.
> 
> ...


i agree. She is showing her cards here. She blocked your number and wont communicate with you at all. I would file. Stop waiting.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

This is SO hard. WE still live together and after she told me on Saturday that she wants a divorce, she is cold as ice. It is so hard to get through the day. I just want to leave with my daughter and go somewhere. This is so painful.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, big night. First off, I saw that mstbxw was talking and texting this guy again. That was it for me. I saw also that she was talking to him WHILE I was in the house and while she was with my daughter in the bedroom. This was the last straw. 

I talked to someone that I trust more than any one else. I spoke with him about what is going on and he told me essentially the same things that have been said here. After talking I realized that I am Plan B, but in the same house. She is using me to test if this guy will work and have the easy way. She is trying to have her cake and eat it too. I can not allow that. As long as she is sneaking around with this guy behind my back, I will not be there for her. It is time for me to go NC. I have to take the power back. If this does not work, then at least my self esteem and self worth will be intact. If I continue to live with her and let her sneak off to see this guy, then I will never heal. **** that. 

I came home from this talk and told her that I can not be here any more. What we have is toxic and it is not good for me and not good for our daughter. I will not continue to put her and me in a place that will just fester resentment. I told her that I do not want to know or care about what ever she has with this other guy. She, of course, defended herself saying that it was only 1 time. Bull****. 

I told her that by the end of the month, we need to be out of here. I will get my own place and she can go wherever. I do not care. This is a rental, so I will pay the early termination fee (i will take the high road, since I make double what she does) and we can both walk away from this.

I told her that IF she can not get a place, then I will continue to live her but we will set ground rules. one of them being that neither of us will date anyone if we still live in the same house. I have respect for her and would not do that, so I expect the same. 

She told me that she agrees and that we will talk tomorrow about how to do it. I feel better. I am not going to worry about it. I am going to move forward with the singular goal and mindset of improving myself and being there for my daughter. 

So that is it for tonight. I know I went against what the book says and the 180, but i feel that I am being used and can not start to get better until I purge the toxicity from me. Please give me any insight. 

Thanks.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

How will you purge the toxicity when you offer her housing if she can't find a place?

Also you really think she'll respect your wishes and not date/fvck around?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old pilot (Oct 9, 2012)

She wants a divorce? Give it to her. Don't waste your time beating a dead horse. you need to understand that nothing lasts forever.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> I told her that IF she can not get a place, then I will continue to live her but we will set ground rules. one of them being that neither of us will date anyone if we still live in the same house. I have respect for her and would not do that, so I expect the same.
> 
> She told me that she agrees and that we will talk tomorrow about how to do it. I feel better. I am not going to worry about it. I am going to move forward with the singular goal and mindset of improving myself and being there for my daughter.


BY BLUNT
Your wife is doing what you said. You are plan B, actually third choice; she is first, the OM is second, and you are third.

Your wife is now emotionally addicted. She is addicted to what she is getting from the OM. In addition, her emotions have taken control of her and it will affect her ability to be rational.

By you making arrangements to soften her consequences you are an enabler of her unbalanced life. Do not prevent the consequences that she has made for herself. Do not be hateful but do not stand in the way of consequences that may jolt her enough so that she starts to think about breaking her emotional addiction. Do not stop improving yourself because she may start to improve; you do not want to put your future in her hands at this time.

You must start concentrating on YOU and your daughter. If you keep allowing involvement with your wife it will derail you from getting stronger and becoming more self contained.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you for the posts. I know and agree. I offered her that option moreso to show that I know what is going on and I am NOT ok with it. If she wants to stay here, will have to get us working. I know that she will not choose that. I know she will move out. She will move in with her parents and be absolutely miserable. She does not get along with her father, at all. I do not want to soften her consequences. Honestly, at this point, I want to get over it. I feel like I am a punching bag just her for her abuse and I will not stand by any more. I appreciate everyones feedback. i know the choice I am making is the right one. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

With all of us hurting like this, sharing our pains, I think it helps us. I am thankful for this platform.

But I wonder what can we do more to help. I will admit, yesterday, I was at my wits end. I really felt like killing myself. I felt that I have accomplished all that I could accomplish in this world and now would be the best time to "clock out."

Today, I am better. But my personality is such that I always think that there is a way to do something to better the situation. Let's brainstorm.

You know, in Japan, they have this program where you can hire people who will woo your spouse who is in a relationship with someone else. They actually turn their hearts away from the one who they are romantically caught up with and after they dump the OM they get dumped. Feeling dejected, they go back to their spouse. I don't even know how that can be possible in my situation. I don't know of anyone savvy enough to win my wife over then dump her, thought I know that if that happened she would definitely come running home.


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

old pilot said:


> She wants a divorce? Give it to her. Don't waste your time beating a dead horse. you need to understand that nothing lasts forever.


This. Although it is hard depending on your state. One approach is to file for emotional abuse, which it is, then look into an ex parte/restraining order on her.



Mr Blunt said:


> You must start concentrating on YOU and your daughter. If you keep allowing involvement with your wife it will derail you from getting stronger and becoming more self contained.


Document everything you do with her, handwritten or send yourself an email everynight with a journal of your daily activities. If you have a smartphone get an app that takes photos with timestamps and attach those to the noghtly emails to your self. That would be invaluable to you in court. Start now and establish the pattern.



Hermes said:


> Thank you for the posts. I know and agree. I offered her that option moreso to show that I know what is going on and I am NOT ok with it. If she wants to stay here, will have to get us working. I know that she will not choose that. I know she will move out. She will move in with her parents and be absolutely miserable. She does not get along with her father, at all. I do not want to soften her consequences. Honestly, at this point, I want to get over it. I feel like I am a punching bag just her for her abuse and I will not stand by any more. I appreciate everyones feedback. i know the choice I am making is the right one.
> 
> Thanks everyone!





Solon said:


> With all of us hurting like this, sharing our pains, I think it helps us. I am thankful for this platform.
> 
> But I wonder what can we do more to help. I will admit, yesterday, I was at my wits end. I really felt like killing myself. I felt that I have accomplished all that I could accomplish in this world and now would be the best time to "clock out."


See IC immediately. You deserve better and clocking out would be the greatest act of selfishness on your part. 



Solon said:


> You know, in Japan, they have this program where you can hire people who will woo your spouse who is in a relationship with someone else. They actually turn their hearts away from the one who they are romantically caught up with and after they dump the OM they get dumped. Feeling dejected, they go back to their spouse. I don't even know how that can be possible in my situation. I don't know of anyone savvy enough to win my wife over then dump her, thought I know that if that happened she would definitely come running home.


Hehe, I had actually considered having a facebook friend woo the OM. Not any more, the prospect of moving on with my son minus the toxic WW is more attractive and something I'm yearning for now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Solon said:


> With all of us hurting like this, sharing our pains, I think it helps us. I am thankful for this platform.
> 
> But I wonder what can we do more to help. I will admit, yesterday, I was at my wits end. I really felt like killing myself. I felt that I have accomplished all that I could accomplish in this world and now would be the best time to "clock out."
> 
> ...


And, what they likely don't tell you, is that they come running home UNTIL a "new" Plan A emerges.

I've seen plenty of Plan B's.

It doesn't work.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, pretty big night last night. My wife and I had a long talk about everything that is going on. We talked about how we got to where we are, our feelings, our fears, the separation, reconciliation, etc. 

So, last night we started to talk about how we would separate. I asked her if she gave any thought into what i told her the night before (that I wanted to move on with the separation). She said that she has and that she feels that it is the best decision. She will move into her parents house until she can afford a place on her own. We started to talk about our feelings on this and basically it came down to this (my answers or comments to her about her feelings are in parenthesis):

1. She has been alone for some time. She checked out about a year ago. (Looking back, I can see that. She has stopped complaining to me, stopped being affectionate, stopped caring)

2. She has wanted a divorce for a while, but was not strong enough to ask for one. She did not want to hurt me, hurt our daughter and she wanted to feel something for anyone. She got that from this other guy 

3. She feels that I neglected her and in turn she neglected me. (I do not disagree with that. I know that when i lost my business, my house and could not get hired (even at Mcdonalds) for a year, I was broken. I neglected her because I thought I was not good enough for her. I was not good enough to provide for her, how could I be good enough to be with her?)

4. She feels that I stopped opening up to her about feelings and emotions years ago. (same as above. I stopped showing emotions because I was dead inside.)

5. She grew as a person and we grew apart. We did not grow together. (same as above. How can I grow when I am empty inside?)

6. She felt that the longer she stayed in this toxic relationship, the more effect it would have on our daughter. (I can not argue with this. The last thing that I want is her to be effected by any of this)

7. I told her that I felt hurt and betrayed by this. The separation hurts, but the fact that she was already seeing someone else just destroyed me. She told me that she has, in all honestly, only seen him 2 times (once for coffee, and once at the running meetup), they have hung out 1 time. I asked her if she liked him and she said that she does and that she is open to it going into a relationship, but that is not what she is striving for, but if it does, she will not stop it. I asked her if she has had any communication with him since the coffee visit and she said she talked and texted him 2 times. I told her how much this made me feel betrayed. I told her that she has no respect for me because she did this. I told her that in my mind she is a cheater and that would be something that would take a long time to feel better about. She understood.

8. I told her about how the sudden change in everything has really got to me. We were sexual last week and now, ice cold. She said that she felt that I hated her. She knows that she hurt me, but she thought that I was angry and hated her and would not want to have anything to do with her. I told her that is not the case. She has been my best friend for 8 years that I would still like to have a friendship between us, even if we can not salvage the marriage. I want to be friendly for both myself and for my daughter. I do not want her to have to deal with the angry divorced parents. I want to be better than that. She was very happy to hear that. I was also glad to hear that she wanted that. 

9. She mentioned that she wants to go to therapy for herself to deal with some self esteem issues and work on herself. She mentioned that she would like to go the two of us to talk about this and talk about how we should proceed for the sake of our daughter. I told her that I would go to that. 

10. We spoke about the possibility of reconciliation. She said that she is not against it and that if we can grow back to being a couple, that she would be open about it. She said that right now, that is not an option. She stated that she has felt that she has felt so miserable for the last year that if we try to reconcile now, we will just slide right back into where we are and she would be miserable again for another year.

11. we spoke about our feelings and I asked her if she felt that because she could reciprocate these feelings is that why she became more distant when we talked about them the first time. She said that yes, she felt that I wanted to talk about our feelings only to push her towards reconciliation and therapy and she does not want that. I told her that I was not pushing for that. I told her that all i want is for the both of us to be happy and get what we deserve and that if talking about how we feel, helps us, I would want to do that. I told her that at no time would i push her towards reconciliation or therapy, unless she wanted it. I told her that I believe in my heart that a separation is needed and that I am going to move on with my life, with or without her. I told her that I do not need to say how I feel for her, because she knows. I told her that I will move on and I will not go into this separation with reconciliation being my goal. I will go into this with the singular purpose of improving myself. I told her that I will not stop loving her and I will fight for her and will always want a reconciliation. I told her that there is a chance I may not be physically or emotionally available to her for a reconciliation if she wants one, though. I told her that she will always be in my life, since we have our daughter and that she will always have a place in my heart. But, i told her that I need to move on so I can be happy.

12. She mentioned how tough it has been for her to not talk to me about this. 

13. She mentioned that she breaks down and cries about what is going on (especially in the car. I assume because she does not have something else to distract herself from it). She says she is very conflicted sometimes. She feels sad, but then she feels the weight was lifted from her shoulders. So, she is confused with how she feels. 

14. She mentioned how she is sad because she does not want to stop visiting my family and go to family events. She said she genuinely loves my family and does not want to lose them. My family loves her to death. My mother considers her one of her own children. In fact, my mother often used our marriage as the compass of what a good marriage is (little did she know). 

15. She did mention that she still thinks I am very hot. So, I would assume the physical attraction is still there, which is a good thing.

We got up hugged and kissed each other (on the head) and started getting ready for bed. At one point, she stroked my arm in passing, which was a nice gesture (i know it means nothing, but at least she is warming up to allow small contact, I do not think that it means anything in the big picture of getting fixed, but it is a baby step). Also, she showered with our daughter last night and allowed me to come into the bathroom with them and get our daughter out of the shower and did not hide behind the curtain, so I saw her naked. Same thing as above, I do not think that this changes anything, but it is also a nice change from the complete shut off I have had. 

After we finished everything, I went to bed. I got up 10 minutes later to find her in the guest room with the door closed and talking on the phone. She was giggling. I knocked on the door and she said come in. She put the person on hold. I asked her what I needed (put laundry in the dryer) and went back to bed. I assumed she was on the phone with this guy. I got a little upset, but I told myself that at this point, she is not my wife, but a glorified roommate. This marriage is done for now and I have to deal with it. 

We woke up and she told me that she asked the guy to not call her until she moved out, since I told her that it was unacceptable that this was going on and that I respect her more than that. I could not help it. I excused myself and walked away to cry. She thought I was upset with her. I told her that I was not, I just needed a second. She said something else (i honestly did not hear, but it was a sigh or a should like she still thought I was upset and lying to her). I told her that I needed to leave for a second to compose myself because I did not want to cry in front of her. I know I should have not told her I was crying, but she heard it. I could not help it. It just came out. 

While getting everything ready for work and school this morning, she mentioned to me that she had to go to her running thing (she goes Thursdays and Saturdays) for a training seminar after her run either tonight or next Saturday. She said that this guy is only there on Saturday (which I believe, since I saw them texting about saturday) and that she assumes that I would rather her go tonight. I told her I would rather her go tonight, but that it is her decision. She said that she wanted to make sure that I did not think that she was out partying with this guy or someone else. 

That was it for the last night and this morning. Any insight? What should i do? I do not want to No contact her and lose the friendship that we have. I want to win her back, but I do want to get myself better. At this point, as absolutely painful and heart breaking that it is, I do think a separation is best. And that kills me. 

What do you think?

Thanks!


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, pretty big night last night. My wife and I had a long talk about everything that is going on. We talked about how we got to where we are, our feelings, our fears, the separation, reconciliation, etc.
> 
> So, last night we started to talk about how we would separate. I asked her if she gave any thought into what i told her the night before (that I wanted to move on with the separation). She said that she has and that she feels that it is the best decision. She will move into her parents house until she can afford a place on her own. We started to talk about our feelings on this and basically it came down to this (my answers or comments to her about her feelings are in parenthesis):
> 
> ...


It will be near impossible for you to heal if you do not cut contact for everything except kid-related business.

You will never "nice" your way back.

And she will never miss you if you don't go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, pretty big night last night. My wife and I had a long talk about everything that is going on. We talked about how we got to where we are, our feelings, our fears, the separation, reconciliation, etc.
> 
> So, last night we started to talk about how we would separate. I asked her if she gave any thought into what i told her the night before (that I wanted to move on with the separation). She said that she has and that she feels that it is the best decision. She will move into her parents house until she can afford a place on her own. We started to talk about our feelings on this and basically it came down to this (my answers or comments to her about her feelings are in parenthesis):
> 
> ...


Wow! It's amazing how cruel women can be.

I don't know. I know separation is supposed to help you heal, but being separated from my wife is killing me. I would love to be able to see her every day. I think as long as she keeps seeing the best in you she will eventually come around. But I think Spun is right. For your own healing, you have to cut contact with her. But it will hurt, really badly. I am hurting so badly right now it's killing me. And to know that she does not care kills me even more. 

I know it must have been hard hearing her on the phone. It's amazing you didn't say anything to her about it. You are an amazing guy.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> It will be near impossible for you to heal if you do not cut contact for everything except kid-related business.
> 
> You will never "nice" your way back.
> 
> ...


I know that. I do not expect to nice myself back into her life. This is very fresh to me. She just told me a few days ago. I am honestly getting to a point that I legitimately feel that we are dead. I am not trying to win her back right now. My frame of mind at this point is that I have fallen off the ledge and instead of desperately trying to grab the ledge, I am just trying to land correctly. I desperately want to move on and fix myself. Not for her, but for me and my daughter. 

I can see about the missing me part, though. Once she is in a separate house, it will be easier to distance ourselves. I do not want to go NC, but if that is what is best, I will do it. I will be talking to my 2 therapists this monday. 



Solon said:


> Wow! It's amazing how cruel women can be.
> 
> I don't know. I know separation is supposed to help you heal, but being separated from my wife is killing me. I would love to be able to see her every day. I think as long as she keeps seeing the best in you she will eventually come around. But I think Spun is right. For your own healing, you have to cut contact with her. But it will hurt, really badly. I am hurting so badly right now it's killing me. And to know that she does not care kills me even more.
> 
> I know it must have been hard hearing her on the phone. It's amazing you didn't say anything to her about it. You are an amazing guy.


It was hard hearing them on the phone, but I have stopped trying to get her back. It is going to be tough and it will kill me as well not talking to her, but I know that it may be the best thing to do. Keep up what you are doing. You are a great person too. You deserve better. 

Thanks you guys.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

As a side note, her upbringing is pretty terrible. She does not feel that her parents loved her the way they should have (she knows that they love her, but they were never supportive of her. They only think of themselves). Her parents also HATE each other. They never separated and still live in the same house, but there is nothing between them. Could that play a role in how she is conducting herself here?


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Hermes said:


> 1. She has been alone for some time. She checked out about a year ago. (Looking back, I can see that. She has stopped complaining to me, stopped being affectionate, stopped caring)


Yep, same here to me when the nagging stopped and the not caring if I go do things that she used to it woke me up. I got the "too little too late" speech after trying to be the good husband.



Hermes said:


> 2. She has wanted a divorce for a while, but was not strong enough to ask for one. She did not want to hurt me, hurt our daughter and she wanted to feel something for anyone. She got that from this other guy


Ditto here too. 

She said "you never wanted to do anything with me" speech. Which was not 100% true. But she's hamster wheeling.



Hermes said:


> 7. I told her that I felt hurt and betrayed by this. The separation hurts, but the fact that she was already seeing someone else just destroyed me.


Same here. Been going on for months. The OM is single 36 and WW is 45 and we've been together 17 years. 



Hermes said:


> 10. We spoke about the possibility of reconciliation. She said that she is not against it and that if we can grow back to being a couple, that she would be open about it. She said that right now, that is not an option.


My WW said there's no hope for us EVER after I texted the OM and did exposure to her family and our son. She said she hated me and that she wanted to be friends after we divorce.




Hermes said:


> 15. She did mention that she still thinks I am very hot. So, I would assume the physical attraction is still there, which is a good thing.


I got that line too : "I deserve someone better and that I'm a catch" It's nice having your wife of 15 years pimp you out. Mine even went as far as to say she wanted to watch me give another woman oral (always been her fantasy).




Hermes said:


> We got up hugged and kissed each other (on the head) and started getting ready for bed.


She's avoided all contact with me, email, text, talking in the house for fear of giving me "hope".



Hermes said:


> I got up 10 minutes later to find her in the guest room with the door closed and talking on the phone. She was giggling.


Same here, I packed her sh!t up and moved her into the basement. Now she leaves each night around dinner time to call the OM for an hour or so. My son and I eat dinner that I cook alone each night.



Hermes said:


> That was it for the last night and this morning. Any insight? What should i do? I do not want to No contact her and lose the friendship that we have. I want to win her back, but I do want to get myself better. At this point, as absolutely painful and heart breaking that it is, I do think a separation is best. And that kills me.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Thanks!


Pretend she does not exist. She's furniture at this point. The woman you see now killed the woman you used to know (remember Obi Wan's line from Star Wars IV about Vader killing Luke's father)

It sucks being in limbo under the same roof, it is like seeing the love of your life die every day like Ground Hog Day.

Document everything you and your children do, take time stamped photos and journal everything. Handwritten or email to yourself. This is not only cathartic but will help you in court.

You have to give the perception you are moving on, care less than she does about the marriage and then you _will_ truly move on.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

planbnomore said:


> Yep, same here to me when the nagging stopped and the not caring if I go do things that she used to it woke me up. I got the "too little too late" speech after trying to be the good husband.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this! I agree. Thankfully, she is moving out this weekend or next to live with her parents. I think once she leaves I will start getting better. I have been going every day to the gym, joining kung fu, got new clothes, cleaned myself up, got new suits, etc. I am going to shave my head bald this weekend too, which is something that I always wanted to do (I am 29 and have a very bad receding hairline.)

Thanks! I hope your situation improves!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, she came to me tonight and said that she is moving out this Saturday. I am oddly looking forward to it. I do not think I can move on and heal with her in the house. i just wish that I did not lose my daughter every other day.

Will keep you posted.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> So, she came to me tonight and said that she is moving out this Saturday. I am oddly looking forward to it. I do not think I can move on and heal with her in the house. i just wish that I did not lose my daughter every other day.
> 
> Will keep you posted


In my state the child can chose to live with whichever parent they want at age 13.

I hope that is true in your state and that your daughter chooses to live with you. Your wife has chosen her feelings over her own child. The child will be negatively affected by her mother’s abandonment.

In a way your wife is an emotional child molester.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, since we talked the other day, I have been happy around her and just not caring about what happens. When she talks to me I show no emotion about what is going to happen. She told me she wants to leave tomorrow and I just said "Ok, I understand. You need to do what is best for you" and that was it. I continued to read a book. I went for a walk with the book and sat at my desk reading it. She came into my office a few more times to talk about what we were doing this weekend (the separation). I was calm, cool and gave her what she wanted. I have not called, emailed, texted anything to her today. She emailed me just now with:

Hye. Hope you’re having a good day.


See you after work! Will probably leave at 5 today.

Should i respond to this or just stay NC? As a side note, we are going to her parents tonight to talk to them about the separation. We are going to tell our families together. I do not want to look into this too much, but it is nice to get some contact from her. I just do not want to backpedal. If going NC is best right now, that is what I will do. The problem is that I will; see her at 5, we will drive together to her parents house (15 minutes away) and we will talk to them together, so complete NC is impossible right now. Do I just email her something very emotionless, like "My day is going great. Likewise, I hope your day is fine. See you then. "

Thanks.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, since we talked the other day, I have been happy around her and just not caring about what happens. When she talks to me I show no emotion about what is going to happen. She told me she wants to leave tomorrow and I just said "Ok, I understand. You need to do what is best for you" and that was it. I continued to read a book. I went for a walk with the book and sat at my desk reading it. She came into my office a few more times to talk about what we were doing this weekend (the separation). I was calm, cool and gave her what she wanted. I have not called, emailed, texted anything to her today. She emailed me just now with:
> 
> Hye. Hope you’re having a good day.
> 
> ...


Sure, respond if you'd like to continue to be her puppet.

You are going to drive with her to parents house so she can emasculate you in front of them?

She's a real gem.

And, your happy to keep drinking the kool aid


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Sure, respond if you'd like to continue to be her puppet.
> 
> You are going to drive with her to parents house so she can emasculate you in front of them?
> 
> ...


I get that. I do. However, the situation with her parents is a little different. Her parents hate each other and her mother loves me like a son. She has said so for years. I was there for her mom for a while. We lived with her parents when we were saving to buy our house. I helped her mother do a lot to the house, since the father just checked out. I have a good relationship with them. I want to tell them what is going on so I can move on. I know my wife. She will not do it in front of me, but behind my back, she will BS about the issues. I am not drinking the kool-aid (hence the previous post about me taking the initiative to tell her to move out). I have no intention of being emasculated in front of them. I am not going because she wants me to go. I am going because I legitimately want to go and talk to them so I can salvage any relationship with them. I have resigned myself that this is over. I actually feel good about it. I will not end up just rolling over. 

Spun,

Trust me I appreciate your posts. I really do and Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your thoughts and comments. They have REALLY helped in the beginning. Please do not take my comments here as any thing agains what you have said.

Thanks.

Am i trying to hard with this? I want to go NC once she leaves. I think that it will be best for me. I do not care about NC with her right now. I do care about going NC with her parents. They have been a big part of my life.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

Personally I'd probably just respond back."Ok see you at 5." or something like that. 

No way she can read anything into that. Your not being mean or nice. Just show no emotion to her.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

i am not going to respond. I think that I need to stick to my guns on this.

Thanks!


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

NoWhere said:


> Personally I'd probably just respond back."Ok see you at 5." or something like that.
> 
> No way she can read anything into that. Your not being mean or nice. Just show no emotion to her.


Be totally Vulcan about it.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

What do I say if she asks me why I did not respond to this email?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I get that. I do. However, the situation with her parents is a little different. Her parents hate each other and her mother loves me like a son. She has said so for years. I was there for her mom for a while. We lived with her parents when we were saving to buy our house. I helped her mother do a lot to the house, since the father just checked out. I have a good relationship with them. I want to tell them what is going on so I can move on. I know my wife. She will not do it in front of me, but behind my back, she will BS about the issues. I am not drinking the kool-aid (hence the previous post about me taking the initiative to tell her to move out). I have no intention of being emasculated in front of them. I am not going because she wants me to go. I am going because I legitimately want to go and talk to them so I can salvage any relationship with them. I have resigned myself that this is over. I actually feel good about it. I will not end up just rolling over.
> 
> Spun,
> 
> ...


Talking to her parents is "approval seeking".

She will tell her side of the story behind your back anyway.

Maintaining a relationship with her parents will keep you "attached" to her life, albeit indirectly.

That's not what you need. You need to break free.


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Hermes said:


> What do I say if she asks me why I did not respond to this email?


Shrug and say you forgot.



spun said:


> Talking to her parents is "approval seeking".
> 
> She will tell her side of the story behind your back anyway.
> 
> ...


YES. ^ Going against the in-law spin machine is futile. Don't even try. 

When you suspect you're gonna get spun (not you spun but the past tense of spin  ) put it down on paper, email it to a friend, keep proof that she will do something. I.E. if she plans on getting an restraining order email a friend, your family, etc and that way it's time stamped and you can control your story — to the people in your life that really do matter.

Journal it out for not only cathartic reasons, but for courts and for your children when they are older.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Talking to her parents is "approval seeking".
> 
> She will tell her side of the story behind your back anyway.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I needed that.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So. today is the day we separate. I am in misery. I am not showing any emotion to her, but inside I feel like just dying. I want to grab her, kiss her and just fix this. I keep thinking that maybe, just maybe if I show her that i truly care and love her, that she will want to work on this for us and our family. i know that it wont help, so I wont. I am dreading telling our daughter what is going to happen. My heart is breaking inside right now. Please give me strength. I am not religious in any shape or form, but i found myself praying to god last night that this pain and misery will end soon. I just want a life with her, or to be completely healed from the pain that this has caused. I just want to skip this part, but i know that this part is the most crucial to fix myself. 

Please god, give me strength today and in the days to come.


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Hang tough Hermes.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

She just asks me if we should delay the move until after our daughters birthday (nov 4). She is turning 4. 

What should I say? Is she trying to delay it for her own selfish reasons?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> She just asks me if we should delay the move until after our daughters birthday (nov 4). She is turning 4.
> 
> What should I say? Is she trying to delay it for her own selfish reasons?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you want?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

tdwal said:


> Sounds like you are getting what you prayed for.


No, i am not. I caught her texting this guy while we were at the book store together with our daughter. 

So, we got home from the bookstore. I am pissed. She lied to me AGAIN about this ****ing guy. She swore that she told him that they would not talk until we were out of the same house. ****ing *****. I can not believe that she lied again. I am seeing red right now. I am so pissed. We leave the bookstore. We get in the car and go home. We do not speak the entire time. I do not show my emotions to her, though.

when we got home I asked her if she decided if she was leaving today. She said she wanted to talk about it. I told her that I wanted her to leave, but I want to do what is best for our daughter. I am making sacrifices to ensure that she gets hurt as least as possible. I tell her that I want what is best for our daughter. She goes on to tell me that she does not think that it will affect her as much as I am making it out to. She states that she thinks that she should leave today. The conversation ended because her mom came over. 

I am at a loss right now. I want her out, so I can get some distance and start to feel better, but i worry about the consequences that my daughter will feel. 

The fact that she is still talking to this guy is beyond infuriating. Every decision she has made since telling me is all about her. She is not thinking about the care and love of our daughter. All she cares about is her getting out and getting with this scumbag. 

on top of all this, we have a birthday party for my niece tho attend today. I do not want her to go to. 

thanks for listening.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tell her you are not ok with her attending.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Do i confront her on the texting after she said she would have no contact with him, or is that futile?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Do i confront her on the texting after she said she would have no contact with him, or is that futile?


When she asks why you are not ok with her attending, you firmly and dispassionately state:

"I'm only ok keeping up appearances when others keep their word"


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> When she asks why you are not ok with her attending, you firmly and dispassionately state:
> 
> "I'm only ok keeping up appearances when others keep their word"


thank you.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So. today is the day we separate. I am in misery. I am not showing any emotion to her, but inside I feel like just dying. I want to grab her, kiss her and just fix this. I keep thinking that maybe, just maybe if I show her that i truly care and love her, that she will want to work on this for us and our family. i know that it wont help, so I wont. I am dreading telling our daughter what is going to happen. My heart is breaking inside right now. Please give me strength. I am not religious in any shape or form, but i found myself praying to god last night that this pain and misery will end soon. I just want a life with her, or to be completely healed from the pain that this has caused. I just want to skip this part, but i know that this part is the most crucial to fix myself.
> 
> Please god, give me strength today and in the days to come.


I feel your pain, Hermes. It is EXACTLY how I feel. I will pray with you and for you. There is no greater pain than this.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So. I am done. Yesterday we went to lunch together and we talk about everything. She told me her fears about trying to make this work. They were that she would get emotionally attached to me again and the changes I am making would not be permanent. I told her I understood. I told her that these are life time changes and I understand her concerns. We talked about her going to counseling on Monday and seeing what the counselor thought. If she was able to, we would stay together and work on us for a few months to see if we can improve ourselves individually and together. W told my family last night and it was not a good experience for her. She admitted to my mom that she has someone else, but that they were just friends and that she knows that he wants sex, but she does not. Se promised me that she would not talk to this guy again. This is promise #3 that she made, so I knew it was bull****. My family was not happy. Both my parents and my sister have gone through divorces with children involved and my mom and sister both did it by leaving for someone else. They told her how stupid she is being that the grass is not greener, etc. we all had about 2 hours of crying. She said that the door is not closed for me, but there is only a glimmer of hope. 

We went home and got our daughter ready for bed. After my little one fell asleep, the w went outside for a walk. She went to her car for about 25 minutes. She came back with no phone or anything, which seem very odd. She sat next to me on the sofa and we watched, laughed and enjoyed watching a tv show together. She went to bed. I knew that something was wrong. I went To the car and check for her phone. I looked in the usual places and did not find it. I went back inside and tried to go to sleep. I woke up and still felt something was off. I askew h for her keys to check her car and she said they were in her purse. I opened h purse and she said "no, not that pocket" but I already opened it and saw an unopened pack of condoms. She saw that I saw them. I walkd out for a walk. I walk to the car and found her phone in the back seat hidden. I checked it and of course, texts all week and calls. She even told him that she was moving out today and she would see him soon. When I came back in, she ask to talk. Shie said that she is sorry she keeps hurting me. She said that they are just friends, but she has thought about it. She said, I have never been dishonest with you. I stop her and said that is bull****. I ask her if she calls this guy after she promis not to. She said yes. I said, how are you not dishonest then? I walk out. She came after me and I said ok, did you talk to him last night after we had our talk about us? She said yes she did, she need someone to talk to. I told her that is bull****, she has friends, family and me to talk to. She made a decision to call this *******. I told her that she is disrespectful, a liar and a cheat. I asked her why she lied to my face and then called him? She said she genuinely did not want to, and when she told me she would not call him, she meant it. Bull****. She wanted to end amicably, but her actions are making that impossible. I told her that i am doing everything I can to work on me and us and that she has not tried a little for anything. She promises me that she would go to therapy with an open mind to fixing our relationship, but I tell her that she said the same about not calling this *******. How could you go to therapy with an open mind if you are in a relationship with someone else? Of course, she had no answer. I told her she is selfish and that I am done with her. I told her that the ball is in her court now. I am not trying for us anymore. If she wants to fix this, it is on her, not me. We stopped there and left the house. W got our daughter in the car and she walk to the other car. I told her that she née to fix this. She caused this issue. I am not going to be villainized for what happened here. I told her that this is not her. I told her that she is making terrible choices. She said that she knows. She asks by she could not stop making those decisions. I told her that she has no control. I told her that I wanted to tell her the second I saw the condoms, but I controlled myself. I told her to fix this ****. I will not take, nor deserve this. I told her that I would not put up with this. 

We left. I have no idea if she went to his house or not. I assume she did. I am playing with my ipad and I see a picture of them from the day after she told me she wanted a divorce at the beach. My sister saw the picture and sent her a text that was not very nice. They are good friends and she has taken this hard. 

She texted me saying "I'm sorry. I've ****ed up. What more can I say?..

Do I respond to this or just stop contact with her? I want to say that "there is nothing more to say. Your actions have said enough". Is that smart? Thanks.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Simple reply tht you have nothing more to say to her and until the has no contact with other man that all communication will be done thru the lawyers.

Let her know that later this week you will give her the contact information for the lawyer, and she can contact the lawyer directly, or she can have her lawyer contact your lawyer.

Then go dark adn stop all contact with STBXW


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Now that you have experiencesed how cheap your words are and what little they mean to your wife, its time to get a lawyer and file.

This tactic might have the effect your words seemed to have fail on.

I'm coming in late, what other tactics have you done to make this affair as inconvienent and uncomfortable, beside exposing it to your family?

Can you expose this affair to the OM's side?

Does the running group know about the A?

I thinks its time to go nucular on this affair, and having her served ASAP is one tactic.

Remember having her servide is not the same thing as finalizing a divorce, your wife will have time to turn a corner if she wants to prevent this divorce.


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So. I am done. Yesterday we went to lunch together and we talk about everything. She told me her fears about trying to make this work. They were that she would get emotionally attached to me again and the changes I am making would not be permanent. I told her I understood. I told her that these are life time changes and I understand her concerns. We talked about her going to counseling on Monday and seeing what the counselor thought. If she was able to, we would stay together and work on us for a few months to see if we can improve ourselves individually and together. W told my family last night and it was not a good experience for her. She admitted to my mom that she has someone else, but that they were just friends and that she knows that he wants sex, but she does not. Se promised me that she would not talk to this guy again. This is promise #3 that she made, so I knew it was bull****. My family was not happy. Both my parents and my sister have gone through divorces with children involved and my mom and sister both did it by leaving for someone else. They told her how stupid she is being that the grass is not greener, etc. we all had about 2 hours of crying. She said that the door is not closed for me, but there is only a glimmer of hope.
> 
> We went home and got our daughter ready for bed. After my little one fell asleep, the w went outside for a walk. She went to her car for about 25 minutes. She came back with no phone or anything, which seem very odd. She sat next to me on the sofa and we watched, laughed and enjoyed watching a tv show together. She went to bed. I knew that something was wrong. I went To the car and check for her phone. I looked in the usual places and did not find it. I went back inside and tried to go to sleep. I woke up and still felt something was off. I askew h for her keys to check her car and she said they were in her purse. I opened h purse and she said "no, not that pocket" but I already opened it and saw an unopened pack of condoms. She saw that I saw them. I walkd out for a walk. I walk to the car and found her phone in the back seat hidden. I checked it and of course, texts all week and calls. She even told him that she was moving out today and she would see him soon. When I came back in, she ask to talk. Shie said that she is sorry she keeps hurting me. She said that they are just friends, but she has thought about it. She said, I have never been dishonest with you. I stop her and said that is bull****. I ask her if she calls this guy after she promis not to. She said yes. I said, how are you not dishonest then? I walk out. She came after me and I said ok, did you talk to him last night after we had our talk about us? She said yes she did, she need someone to talk to. I told her that is bull****, she has friends, family and me to talk to. She made a decision to call this *******. I told her that she is disrespectful, a liar and a cheat. I asked her why she lied to my face and then called him? She said she genuinely did not want to, and when she told me she would not call him, she meant it. Bull****. She wanted to end amicably, but her actions are making that impossible. I told her that i am doing everything I can to work on me and us and that she has not tried a little for anything. She promises me that she would go to therapy with an open mind to fixing our relationship, but I tell her that she said the same about not calling this *******. How could you go to therapy with an open mind if you are in a relationship with someone else? Of course, she had no answer. I told her she is selfish and that I am done with her. I told her that the ball is in her court now. I am not trying for us anymore. If she wants to fix this, it is on her, not me. We stopped there and left the house. W got our daughter in the car and she walk to the other car. I told her that she née to fix this. She caused this issue. I am not going to be villainized for what happened here. I told her that this is not her. I told her that she is making terrible choices. She said that she knows. She asks by she could not stop making those decisions. I told her that she has no control. I told her that I wanted to tell her the second I saw the condoms, but I controlled myself. I told her to fix this ****. I will not take, nor deserve this. I told her that I would not put up with this.
> 
> ...


Wow! Well, it definitely sounds as though your wife still loves you. The experts say that when a spouse gets caught up in an affair they are temporarily insane and it is like a drug that they cannot get rid of on their own.

I think it is up to you at this point. If you want her, you can have her, but it will be painful and take time. If you do not want the pain and time, then you can walk. I think either way "walking" right now will be the best move.

She is totally out of her mind. You should let me talk to her. I will be able to talk some reality into her.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks Solon. I wish you could talk some sense into her. I KNOW she still loves me. That is what is making this worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Knowing she still loves you has to bring some sort of comfort. So it is up to you. You can wait it out, 95% of relationships that begin as an affair ends, so you have to know this will pass. It is just a matter of whether you can wait it out. If you stop talking to her and allow her to see his bad sides (we all have them) she will come back sooner than later.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. I needed that. I really appreciate this. It does not bring any comfort because if she truly loved me she would not be doing this. 

Thank you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So I responded to her saying "if you truly mean that, you will start making better decisions.

She said "I'm going to try to make this better..tonight." then she said "Not for you and me but bc I want to be someone who Our daughter wouldn't be disappointed in.." then she said "And you don't deserve it,". Then lastly, "Both of those reasons..". I simply said "agreed".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So I responded to her saying "if you truly mean that, you will start making better decisions.
> 
> She said "I'm going to try to make this better..tonight." then she said "Not for you and me but bc I want to be someone who Our daughter wouldn't be disappointed in.." then she said "And you don't deserve it,". Then lastly, "Both of those reasons..". I simply said "agreed".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Expect her behavior to continue to be erratic.

She will likely struggle to break free of posOM, even if she thinks it is the "right" thing to do.

Buckle up. I can assure you the real drama is just getting started.

And you. Stay still like a rock. Calm, cool, emotionless.

No rescuing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. I know. I will post on here before I do anything. I appreciate the posts. I will not fall off. I am not getting excited about why is going to happen. I just have no faith or trust in her righ now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> II just have no faith or trust in her righ now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and you shouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I don't know how to take those texts. I am not sure if she is saying that she will work it out, so our daughter is not disappointed in her or that she will not jump into a relationship with this guy right away, since our daughter will judge her for leaving and immediately going for someone else. I am so confused. I was feeling good earlier, but that text has thrown me off. I am still not contacting her at all.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I don't know how to take those texts. I am not sure if she is saying that she will work it out, so our daughter is not disappointed in her or that she will not jump into a relationship with this guy right away, since our daughter will judge her for leaving and immediately going for someone else. I am so confused. I was feeling good earlier, but that text has thrown me off. I am still not contacting her at all.


No talking.

Keep observing.

Her actions will show you what she really thinks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> No talking.
> 
> Keep observing.
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> Thank you!


He's right. Stay strong, but do not expect a dramatic change overnight.


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## SCondeck (Oct 5, 2012)

My God man! Your mother, sister AND wife all cheated on their husbands?! My eyes are opening to how rotten women can be. I feel for you. You're better than this and you don't have to take this from your wife. At-fault divorce her ass and have done with it.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, since yesterdays interaction, we have texted a few times. Here is what happened:

Last night, she texted me saying that she went to a yoga class (i call BS, but whatever). She then texts me saying that "by the way, I am making better decisions". I say that "Good. Our daughter will only be better for your effort". She says "Thats what i want". She says that she misses her terribly.

That was it for the night.

Today she called in the morning to talk to our daughter and when she was going said that she would call me after her therapist appointment. I said ok.

She just texted me that our insurance does not cover marriage counseling (she has a clause in her policy about it, which I can 100% verify). She asked that after she is done with the therapist, can she come over briefly? She says that I imagine we need to give the talk to our daughter now....

I say that is fine.

I hate this. I thought that yesterday MAYBE something good was happening. That is what i get for getting my hopes even a little up.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I hate this. I thought that yesterday MAYBE something good was happening. That is what i get for getting my hopes even a little up.


Another word of caution.

Stop trying to read into what she says and does not say.

It's all fog babble. They will do anything to wordsmith a conversation that is ambiguous enough to obscure their true intentions, but direct enough to seem like they addressed the issue.

It's like listening to a politician answer a question.

They don't. But they spew out a bunch of babble that has the illusion of leaving you "satisfied" at the time.

Two minutes later you realize they fed you a line of bullsh!t.


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## SCsweety81 (Sep 27, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I thought that yesterday MAYBE something good was happening. That is what i get for getting my hopes even a little up.


True statement.

That's why all these relationship gurus tell you to observe at such a high level.

I know - I should practice what I preach. :scratchhead:


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

SCsweety81 said:


> True statement.
> 
> That's why all these relationship gurus tell you to observe at such a high level.
> 
> I know - I should practice what I preach. :scratchhead:


Words are empty at this stage of the game (and probably were quite some time before they walked).

Always stay at 50,000 ft.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I feel like she is treating me like a dog. She throws down a steak that is close enough for me to smell, but not enough to eat. I feel like I am being used. Like she is just keeping me in the game for her, so she can decide what she wants. Maybe she does not want to lose me as her backup, or maybe she does not want me to be mad at her.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I feel like she is treating me like a dog. She throws down a steak that is close enough for me to smell, but not enough to eat. I feel like I am being used. Like she is just keeping me in the game for her, so she can decide what she wants. Maybe she does not want to lose me as her backup, or maybe she does not want me to be mad at her.


This is exactly why you need to change your focus to observing what she actually does.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> This is exactly why you need to change your focus to observing what she actually does.


thanks. It is really hard. She just moved out to her parents yesterday. 

thanks!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, she came over last night after her therapy session. She wanted to talk to me about it and then talk to our daughter about the separation. 

She asked me to talk and she started with "I am sorry. I am sorry for how I have been acting the last week. I knew that i was telling you that I would not talk to him, but I did any way." She said that this was not her. She was not that person. She said that she was not sure why she was doing it. She said that during therapy, she had a realization. She was doing it because she was angry at me. She said that as bad as that sounds, and that she is not trying to justify it, but she was/is angry at me and that she did not want to give me anything. So, when i asked her to not contact him, she did not want to give me the satisfaction, so she called him. 

She then said that she is sorry that she did not call last night, she was in yoga. She said, "I know that you don't believe me, but I was.". 

I asked her what the text meant last night about making this better tonight. She said that she told Scott (she used his name) that she has to stop seeing him. She needs to focus on getting through this and can not see/talk to him for a while. Of course, I do not believe this. She is acting like an addict with him, so I have no reason to believe that it will change. I can not control it any way, so what does it matter. 

She then wanted to talk about our daughter. We discussed custody (1 week intervals, which I have had her since Sunday, so this is my week). We told our daughter about the separation. It broke her heart. I broke mine, as well. My wife seemed to be sad, but said she did not want to cry in front of her. I am sure that she cried on the drive home. 

My wife asked me to go to therapy with her today. My wife said that the therapist recommended it. I agreed. I am not sure what for, but at this point, I do not think it could hurt. I will let her start the session, so I can get an idea of where the session is headed. 

My wife played with our daughter for 20 minutes and then left. 

I called Joanne from the Divorce Busting line, since I had an appointment with her and we went over all the things that happened. This was her breakdown of what she heard and what needs to be done:

1. Go dark. Get a life for myself
2. Stand up more for myself. 
3. Stop Pursuing. 
4. Stop talking about reconciliation, unless she brings it up.
5. Since she mentioned that she was still physically attracted to me, the therapist wants me to focus on that. Workout, look good, smell good. Get new clothes, etc. 
6. Do not be there for her. She has too much confidence that I will be there for her when ever she needs. I need her to realize that I am moving on and that someone else will snatch me up.
7. Continue doing what I am doing for myself. The therapist said that we have already seen some small baby step improvements, like the fact that we are openly talking, we went to lunch together 1 on 1 and that she has not been as cold when she is around me (giving me a hug, etc). She still calls me honey, as well. She apologizes afterwards, but she still does it. 
8. She said do not act like a husband to her. I need to act not like a husband, since she is not acting like a wife. 
9. The fact that my wife wanted (or agreed) to go to therapy with me is a positive. She said that IF she had given up completely on the relationship, the last place she would want to go is therapy with me. Of course, she said go into therapy with a positive attitude, but very low expectations.

The therapist said to look for these actions:
1. She is being warmer with me
2. She is sharing experience with her treatment
3. She wants to talk on the phone, not text
4. She is calling her daughter on a regular basis.
5. She is thinking about the family. 
6. She wants to spend time together as a family or just the 2 of us
7. She wants to come over our shared house more often
8. She wants to move back in

So, it looks like business as usual right now. I have gone completely NC with her. I have not reached out to contact her. I have only talked to her when it is about our daughter. 

I will post an update after therapy tonight.

Thanks!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I also wanted to say that I truly love you all. I feel like I am getting better already. I feel like if I had not had this community I would have made FAR worse decisions in this than I have, which would have only made things worse. I really mean it. Thank you all for everything. 

Every bit of advice that I recevied from family was that I needed to fight for her and show her that I love her. More pursuing. Obviously, that would not have worked. I was 2 minutes away from spending $2,000 to take her on a trip for the two of us. In my mind, I figured, we would go on a trip and reconnect. Obviously, I did not do that. I know that would have been money wasted. 

Anyway, thank you all. It has been very rewarding posting on here.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, she came over last night after her therapy session. She wanted to talk to me about it and then talk to our daughter about the separation.
> 
> She asked me to talk and she started with "I am sorry. I am sorry for how I have been acting the last week. I knew that i was telling you that I would not talk to him, but I did any way." She said that this was not her. She was not that person. She said that she was not sure why she was doing it. She said that during therapy, she had a realization. She was doing it because she was angry at me. She said that as bad as that sounds, and that she is not trying to justify it, but she was/is angry at me and that she did not want to give me anything. So, when i asked her to not contact him, she did not want to give me the satisfaction, so she called him.
> 
> ...


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

*Therapy is useless and a waste of money while the other man is in the picture.. Tell her once she goes full no-contact with the OM you may consider going with her.*

*I agree that it nothing will come from it. I do not doubt that the OM is still in the picture. I want to go so that I can talk about this with a professional. I have 0 hope for a reconciliation right now. And I would not want one. I do think that even IF it does not work out, I would go to therapy solely for the sake of my daughter. I will continue to go NC with her, but I would go to therapy for me, so I can improve. Trust me, I have no thought about this being turned around. She knows that I am done until the OM is out of the picture.*

1. Go dark. Get a life for myself *YES* *Done*
2. Stand up more for myself. *YES* * Done and Done. I think this put the fear in her the other day when I finally, after years of being a doormat, stood up to her and told her this was not acceptable and that she is acting like a selfish jerk.*
3. Stop Pursuing. *ABSOLUTELY* *Done*
4. Stop talking about reconciliation, unless she brings it up. *YES* *Done*
5. Since she mentioned that she was still physically attracted to me, the therapist wants me to focus on that. Workout, look good, smell good. Get new clothes, etc. *For YOU, not your wife.* *This is for me, not her. I have enjoyed going to the gym this last week. I want to look my best. I have been so complacent with my looks that I feel like I am not where I could be in life, since I did not take my appearance seriously*
6. Do not be there for her. She has too much confidence that I will be there for her when ever she needs. I need her to realize that I am moving on and that someone else will snatch me up. *Yes, yes , yes.* *Done*
7. Continue doing what I am doing for myself. The therapist said that we have already seen some small baby step improvements, like the fact that we are openly talking, we went to lunch together 1 on 1 and that she has not been as cold when she is around me (giving me a hug, etc). She still calls me honey, as well. She apologizes afterwards, but she still does it. *Ignore what she says, watch what she does.* *This is hard, but I am trying very hard*
8. She said do not act like a husband to her. I need to act not like a husband, since she is not acting like a wife. *Exactly* *This is hard, also, but I am trying. I am so used to treating her like that. We have been together for a decade.*
9. The fact that my wife wanted (or agreed) to go to therapy with me is a positive. She said that IF she had given up completely on the relationship, the last place she would want to go is therapy with me. Of course, she said go into therapy with a positive attitude, but very low expectations.* I disagree. The OM has to be out of the picture first. Your wife is only placating you. Right now she is too far in the fog for therapy to be of any use.
* *I agree with this. I am not going into this with any hope. I am not expecting to turn a new leaf and be back together after therapy tonight.*

The therapist said to look for these actions:
1. She is being warmer with me *Means Nothing* *these are future things to look for to see that she is improving and wanting to work on things between us. This is not an immediate thing to look for.*
2. She is sharing experience with her treatment *Means Nothing* *same as above*
3. She wants to talk on the phone, not text *Means Nothing* *same as above*
4. She is calling her daughter on a regular basis.
5. She is thinking about the family. *No, shes thinking about OM* *same as above*
6. She wants to spend time together as a family or just the 2 of us *More placating you. Don't fall for it.* *same as above*
7. She wants to come over our shared house more often. *To do what? Placate you more?**same as above*
8. She wants to move back in *No. She has to earn the right to come home, which means dumping the OM and then going to MC with you, and then after a couple months, when she can prove she wants the marriage to work, then you let her come home.
* *I agree with this. I would not let her move back in right now. There is no magic to moving back in together. It is not going to fix anything. In fact, it may make things harder, since I will lose some of the mystery about myself.* 

*Good. Stay the course. You can believe about 25% of what she says. Watch what she does. * *I will! Thank you!*


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Going into therapy with wife now. I will update once I am out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I am so weak around her. I just can not control myself. I want to cling to whatever I can to get her change. I know that it won't work, but I do it anyway. Why do I put myself through this? Why do I feel so abandoned? I just want her to realize that all of our problems can be solved with a little work. Why can't she see that? Why am I not good enough? Why when I am around her I blame myself for all the problems we have? I just desparately want her back.


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

Being clingy and chasing her will just push her further away because it makes you look very weak. I did the same thing for almost 2 years...divorce should be final this week. So, maybe try something different.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. i know. i just break down around her. i just want to talk about it. I need to man up. 

She still shows married on facebook, as do I. Should i put separated? What do you all think?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Thanks. i know. i just break down around her. i just want to talk about it. I need to man up.
> 
> She still shows married on facebook, as do I. Should i put separated? What do you all think?


I don't think it matters one iota.

What do you think?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I don't think it matters one iota.
> 
> What do you think?


I agree. I need to stop focusing on what would affect her. I thought that maybe she seeing that will make her realize that I am moving on. I do not think that it would make a difference, though.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

tdwal said:


> You know from her perspective, I am sure that is not even on her mind right now.


i know. i need to stop focusing on her. I want to make her realize what she is leaving. I guess, i am selling my recovery short, since I am continuing to act in a way that I hope she sees positive results and wants to come back. 

I know that I need to stop that. It is just so hard.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

i am having a rough day. i desperately want to call her and talk to her right now. This distance is killing me. I do not want to go home to an empty house. I just want to hear her voice and see her smile right now. Why am I so attached to her?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> i am having a rough day. i desperately want to call her and talk to her right now. This distance is killing me. I do not want to go home to an empty house. I just want to hear her voice and see her smile right now. Why am I so attached to her?


Codependence is one of the most difficult habits to break.

Talk to us.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Codependence is one of the most difficult habits to break.
> 
> Talk to us.


I feel lost. I feel like I am drowning. I can not help but call her. i know that it is not healthy. I want her back so badly. Every thought is about her. Every minute i am awake i think about why this happened and the pain that it has caused me. I can not stop blaming myself for it. We went to therapy last night and all i could do was blame myself for all our problems, hoping that it would make her see that I understand and I want to change. I miss my daughter. She has been gone for 1 night and I feel so alone at home without her. I feel so depressed. I barely can work. I sit at my desk and read TAM and get depressed. I check my phone and see nothing from her and get depressed. I want to talk to someone that is close to her to get some kind of insight into her right now. I want some guidance from someone that will just tell me that I need to be patient, she loves you and you just need a little space right now, but it will work out. I sleep only a few hours at night and wake up thinking about this. It is so difficult. I just want her to want this as bad as I do.

do you think that I am codependent? How do I break that? I need some guidance here.

thanks.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> do you think that I am codependent? How do I break that? I need some guidance here.
> 
> thanks.


“Codependency, by definition, means making the relationship more important to you than you are to yourself...It’s kind of a weird phrase, and it doesn’t sound like it means a one-sided relationship. But that’s what it is. It means you’re trying to make the relationship work with someone else who’s not.”

How do you break it? But cutting contact and focusing on you.

It's called the 180.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

thanks spun. that is what i am trying to do. i am trying to go NC for anything other than our daughter and do the 180. i will fully dedicate myself to it from today. I will post on her religiously before i do anything.

thank you!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Today I am feeling better. I have reserved myself to the 180 and Last resort technique. WE have talked 3 times today only about child care issues. I feel good. I am reading "The married mans sex primer" right now and for some reason it is really making me feel better about the situation. Hopefully this feeling lasts.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

i have felt good yesterday and all day today. She has sent random emails all about our daughter (custody agreements. She asked to call me about it.). I told her not to call me because I was busy. I told her to call me after work. 

I was feeling good, then I sent her an email asking her how her day was going. Stupid. I knew it was stupid when i hit send. I wanted to recall the email, but it was already sent. Stupid me. 

I am set on the method, i just do not want her to think that I hate her. I feel like that would make it worse. I know that I should not have emailed her. It just brings me back in the games........just stupid.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

Don't beat yourself up too bad. I caved in a few times sending emails with links or other nonsense like begging and asking why to my Stbx.

Just pick yourself up and try again. Consider it a momentary relapse and jump back in the wagon.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. She just sent me this:

Hey. It’s going alright, actually. I don’t want to jinx it, but it has been a nice, relaxing workday thus far. You?

I do not think i should respond. right?


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Well, you started it so respond I'm having a good day too or something like that. Just make it a simple reply, not a conversation starter.


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

Well I'm maybe not the best person to ask. Personally I would respond back with a short response. Trying not to be overly friendly, but not ignoring her either. I guess it all depends on this 180 thing. I mean you don't want her to think your being a jerk, but want to put off the illusion that you've moved on and don't need her. Correct?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

that is the biggest thing i am struggling with. I want to "act as if" i am moving on and do not need her. I have a hard time not acting like a jerk, though. I feel when she is around or talks to me that I am being a jerk or cold. 

As a side note, I talked to my therapist last night and she told me that she thinks my wife is very confused. She thinks that she needs time. She thinks that this other guy is nothing. She was getting some attention from him and she liked it. She said that it may turn into something, but she does not think that it did yet (at least before her session on Monday). She thinks that I need to not talk to her about anything other than our daughter and allow her to reflect on everything. She said that the more that I try to contact her, the less she can reflect on the consequences of her actions. It is hard. I just want her to know that I do not hate her. Is that wrong? I should hate her, but I don't.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

she just replied with:

Glad to hear it. 

I want so badly to see the pumpkin that she made in school today!! I hope she gets to bring it home with her so you guys can send me a picture of it.

Thank goodness it’s Friday, no? Hope you guys have fun at the birthday party tomorrow! I know she will have a great time with her friends. Really wish I could be there for it.

Happy Friday.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So I woke up fine this morning. I have my daughter today, so it was nice being there with someone. I had a bday party to go to with my daughter for a school mate (she is 4). Seeing all those happy parents there together really brought me down. Seeing those families with their kids made me feel like **** again. I hate her for what she is doing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> So I woke up fine this morning. I have my daughter today, so it was nice being there with someone. I had a bday party to go to with my daughter for a school mate (she is 4). Seeing all those happy parents there together really brought me down. Seeing those families with their kids made me feel like **** again. I hate her for what she is doing.


Good - you should.

Channel that anger into improving yourself.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So today I have the overwhelming feeling that I do not want this relationship any more. I have been too hurt by it and I do not know if I will ever look at her the same way again. Should I just file? Does it give me any thing extra by being the one that files? For those that have filed, did it empower you at all?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> So today I have the overwhelming feeling that I do not want this relationship any more. I have been too hurt by it and I do not know if I will ever look at her the same way again. Should I just file? Does it give me any thing extra by being the one that files? For those that have filed, did it empower you at all?


If you want to file, do it.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it.

Seems simple, but it depends on what you truly want.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks conrad. I think I will. I do not think I could ever forgive her for the affair. I just do not see the point delaying it any more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Thanks conrad. I think I will. I do not think I could ever forgive her for the affair. I just do not see the point delaying it any more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Full speed ahead.

Keep observing her reaction.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

i will. thanks.

I went to the attorney today and we drew up a MSA, which i will give to her tonight for review. she wants to meet tonight to talk about how we will handle custody, since we are doing 50/50. She was trying to get some crazy schedule and then arguing with me when i told her I was not ok with that method. She then yelled at me last night becuase she claims that our daughter asked her to stay with her longer. I told her No. I want her 50% of the time. She then yelled about how I was taking what i wanted over what our daughter wants. I said she is 4 years old. Crazy.Now she cares about our daughters thoughts. She did not care when she was breaking our family up to go sleep with this *******.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

posOM


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, I gave her the MSA that was prepared by my attorney last night. We talked about child custody arrangements for a few minutes. The night before, the wife claims that our daughter told her that she wanted to stay with mommy 4 days and daddy 3 days. I told her (the wife) that I was not ok with that. She flipped out. How dare I put my wants above my daughter. Ok crazy.....

So yesterday we met to talk to each other about it and ask our 4 year old what she wanted. My daughter said, I want daddy 3 days and mommy 3 days. Then the wife was like, "you dont want mommy 4 days and daddy 3?". She was trying to get her to agree with her. My daughter said, "No. I want mommy 3 days and daddy 3 days". God bless her. So, I stopped the conversation there. I was cold and emotionless with her. I bordered on being rude, too. Which I need to control. 

So, we left and we did not talk the rest of the night. She called to say goodnight to our daughter and that was it. I found out that she went out with this other man last night. She has already told her parents about him. Her mother freaked out on her. It has been 16 days since we split and she is already going out with someone. Her mom was not happy about it. Her mom wants to talk to me tomorrow. So we are meeting up to talk. I told her mom yesterday that I would be filing the divorce. 

So, last night as we are going to sleep, my daughter says "daddy, lets pray that mommy and you can sleep in the same bed with me". Of course, I pray with her. 

I go to drop her off at school this morning and her teacher tells me that she has been crying for me and that she has asked her teacher to pray at school (she goes to a catholic day care) for mommy and daddy. 

I emailed the wife a few times today. 1st was the MSA that I gave a physical copy to her yesterday with some changes based on the custody talk yesterday. 2nd was to tell her about the instance with our daughter and praying. And the 3rd was for outstanding bills due.

Her responses were:

1st: I’m going to give you my final word on it, within the next day or two.

2nd: That breaks my heart…I’m sorry to hear it. 
It really does break my heart..even more than not having her everyday. 

Have you been talking to her? Everytime I try to, she changes the subject.. 

To which I responded:
yes I have talked to her. She changes the subject, but it is obviously affecting her. 

To which she responded:
I just found some child psychologists. I don’t know if they are covered or not under my insurance, but I’m going to call them today. I really think it would benefit her to talk to a professional..

I have not responded again.

3rd: I’ll go over this on my lunch break.

Also, I am going to make sure I’m right about this, but I believe if I remove you this month from my insurance, that you’ll still be covered for 30 days.

If this is how it works, then I’ll go ahead and submit the paperwork today.

K. Thanks.

I did not respond to this.

So that is where we are now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Herm,

How are you doing?

(Of course she gets pissed when you stand up for yourself. How do you think you got in this situation?)


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Herm,
> 
> How are you doing?
> 
> (Of course she gets pissed when you stand up for yourself. How do you think you got in this situation?)


Conrad,

I am doing great actually. I feel really good right now. Last night I knew she was out with that guy and it only bothered me a little, where as a week ago I would not have been able to sleep. It is a good feeling. I do feel rally good about giving her the MSA. I feel like I got some of my power back and now she knows I am not going to be her plan b. I am moving full steam ahead with a divorce with or without her desire for it.

she just emailed me about the psychologist for our daughter:

I called a few child psychologists on my lunch break, and the one that just called me back told me that children as young as 18 months can go in for emotional therapy.
So, she would be able to go in. However, she would need to talk to us first, because she says we are the biggest influences, obviously, on how she’ll deal with something like divorce.
I am not sure if my insurance will cover this, though if they covered the marriage counselor, I’m not sure why they wouldn’t. I’m assuming they cover mental health sessions for up to 8 visits. I will try to call to find out for sure. Hopefully this time, I’ll be able to reach someone more knowledgeable than last time. If it’s not covered though, I’ll just foot the bill. 

Would you be willing to talk to this lady with me? Maybe on November 2nd. (I would go sooner, but if it’s not covered by insurance, then I won’t be able to pay until that date.)

I responded with a simple "thats fine". 

She replied to me with "Ok. Then, I will e-mail her to set up an appointment."

No response from me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you think your daughter needs a psychologist?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

No, but I also think that it would not be a terrible idea because I can see how I can make sure she is not as affected by this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I want to say to her that she does not need to go to therapy. I want to tell her that her actions are causing this. I want to tell her to grow up and get out of the affair fog she is in. Of course that is a losing conversation. What are your thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I want to say to her that she does not need to go to therapy. I want to tell her that her actions are causing this. I want to tell her to grow up and get out of the affair fog she is in. Of course that is a losing conversation. What are your thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Putting your kid in therapy is looking out for her best interest.

Little ones are going thru this too, they jus don't express their issues the same way.

Better safe than sorry when it comes to her present and future mental health.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Putting your kid in therapy is looking out for her best interest.
> 
> Little ones are going thru this too, they jus don't express their issues the same way.
> 
> ...


That was my thoughts on it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, last night my stbxw mom wanted to talk to me. We met at my daughters school. We talked for about 45 minutes. She told me that this is not her daughter. She is lying to her. She is arguing all the time. The mom is telling her that she needs to get her **** together. She is telling her that she has a young daughter and that she can not believe that is already dating some guy she does not know within 1 week of being separated. She is disgusted with her. She said that she (my wife) does not listen, just argues about it and says that she knows that everyone thinks she is the bad guy. She has been lying about where she is going to her mom and brother, who both know what the hell she is doing. 

It felt nice talking to her because she seems to be on my side of this. Obviously, (and I told her) that I do not want, nor expect her to chose my side of things. I want her to know the full story. I told her that this guy has been in the picture far longer than she knows. The mom was under the impression that she just met the guy. I told her about the texts, the date, the condoms, the phone calls, the lying, everything. She said that the wife has been saying things about me, but she knows that they are untrue, since she saw how I treated my wife. She knows that I treated her like a princess. Her mom thinks that she is being selfish and she is not being a good mom. 

Overall, it helped me a lot. I know that others are seeing the way she is acting and are not blaming me for this. Obviously, I had a part in the downfall of the marriage, but how she has handled it lately, everyone she loves is sickened by it. 

So, I left with my daughter and thanked my mother in law for talking to me. We went home and went to bed. This morning, the wife called me 2 times within 2 minutes. I did not see her call, so I did not answer. I called her back and got no answer. 

She called about 15 minutes later and I answered like usual. She said "I called you and you did not answer".

I responded with "I was asleep and I called you back". She asked if I was mad at her. I said "Yes, of course I am". She said "Why? I have not done anything. I have not even communicated with you.". I responded simply with "You know what you did. There is no reason to talk about it any more". She responded with "Unbelievable". She then asked to talk to our daughter and that was it. 

I was not rude or anything. I did not bring up ANY of the reasons I am upset with her. I left it at that. I told her that there is no reason to talk about it. I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Does she honestly think that I am not going to be upset with her? Does she think that I am going to answer the phone and be buddy buddy with her or something? Is this a typical response from someone in the fog? She has gone bat **** crazy.......


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

On a side note. We are going to therapy for our daughter next week. The therapist wants to see us before he sees our daughter. I am sure that he is going to talk about how we feel towards each other to get an idea of where we are at emotionally. Is it wise (mind you I would not turn down a reconciliation IF it was genuine, but I am not hoping nor striving for that. I honestly do not know if I could forgive her) to tell her and hiom exactly how I feel? 

I want to say that she:
- is a cheater
- is a liar
- is being selfish
- is only thinking between her legs
- essentially a wh*re (but worded nicer)
- does not realize the ripple that she is causing. She does not realize all the people that are being affected by this. All she cares about is herself and this *******.
- that she has lost the respect of most of the people that love her unconditionally
- She thinks that everyone is stupid and going to fall for her pathetic lies (late night yoga class, my ass)
- She leaves a marriage and immediately jumps into bed with some ******* who would poach a married woman. What kind of scumbag would do that?
- She even lied and said that she would not see this guy because she does not want our daughter to be disappointed in her. Liar!

Would this do any good? Would be honest about how I feel possibly shake her up at all, or will it fall on deaf ears and just make it seem like I was an ass?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So, last night my stbxw mom wanted to talk to me. We met at my daughters school. We talked for about 45 minutes. She told me that this is not her daughter. She is lying to her. She is arguing all the time. The mom is telling her that she needs to get her **** together. She is telling her that she has a young daughter and that she can not believe that is already dating some guy she does not know within 1 week of being separated. She is disgusted with her. She said that she (my wife) does not listen, just argues about it and says that she knows that everyone thinks she is the bad guy. She has been lying about where she is going to her mom and brother, who both know what the hell she is doing.
> 
> It felt nice talking to her because she seems to be on my side of this. Obviously, (and I told her) that I do not want, nor expect her to chose my side of things. I want her to know the full story. I told her that this guy has been in the picture far longer than she knows. The mom was under the impression that she just met the guy. I told her about the texts, the date, the condoms, the phone calls, the lying, everything. She said that the wife has been saying things about me, but she knows that they are untrue, since she saw how I treated my wife. She knows that I treated her like a princess. Her mom thinks that she is being selfish and she is not being a good mom.
> 
> ...


Yes, totally textbook behavior.

You see this has nothing to do with you.

It's all about her. Why are you not there for her?

It will get crazier yet.

Hang in there.

Actually, I mean hang on...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> On a side note. We are going to therapy for our daughter next week. The therapist wants to see us before he sees our daughter. I am sure that he is going to talk about how we feel towards each other to get an idea of where we are at emotionally. Is it wise (mind you I would not turn down a reconciliation IF it was genuine, but I am not hoping nor striving for that. I honestly do not know if I could forgive her) to tell her and hiom exactly how I feel?
> 
> I want to say that she:
> - is a cheater
> ...


None of that will do any good.

All focused on her.

You will get vicious defense in return.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Does she honestly think that I am not going to be upset with her? Does she think that I am going to answer the phone and be buddy buddy with her or something? Is this a typical response from someone in the fog? She has gone bat **** crazy.......


This is what isn't sinking in for you.

She sees herself as YOUR victim.

So, her behavior is justified.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks! I honestly never thought of it that way. It makes sense. I will have to tell myself that when I feel like this. Other than that am I handling this correctly? I try to think calm cool dispassionate hen I speak to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Thanks! I honestly never thought of it that way. It makes sense. I will have to tell myself that when I feel like this. Other than that am I handling this correctly? I try to think calm cool dispassionate hen I speak to her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An Overview of the Drama Triangle


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

If you have not already read these two I highly recommend you do. It will help you see what your wife is thinking.

Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> An Overview of the Drama Triangle


Thanks! I will read that again today.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

dazedguy said:


> If you have not already read these two I highly recommend you do. It will help you see what your wife is thinking.
> 
> Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity


thank you! I will read this today, as well.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

the victim triangle is going to take some time for me to grasp it. I see the overall idea, but I am now trying to see it in everday interactions....

On a side note, the wife and I talked this morning (i called her to say good morning to my daughter, who she has today) and she wanted to tell me that she removed my ipad from her iphone account (icloud) so the pictures will not sync. I said, "I already did that on my end, when i found that picture of you and him". 

Why tell me that? Is she just trying to make me jealous and think they must be taking more pictures together.....

meh. Whatever.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> the victim triangle is going to take some time for me to grasp it. I see the overall idea, but I am now trying to see it in everday interactions....
> 
> On a side note, the wife and I talked this morning (i called her to say good morning to my daughter, who she has today) and she wanted to tell me that she removed my ipad from her iphone account (icloud) so the pictures will not sync. I said, "I already did that on my end, when i found that picture of you and him".
> 
> ...


This is a great example of the Victim Triangle at work.

She's hoping you'll protest so you can get into the dance with her.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> This is a great example of the Victim Triangle at work.
> 
> She's hoping you'll protest so you can get into the dance with her.


I wish that I could buy you a beer. Thanks. Again, it is going to take some time to understand. I am confused here on what she and I would be.

So, correct me if I am wrong here.

She is acting the victim here. She is the victim because SHE had to inconvenience herself by removing the link between our devices. She had to go out of her way to protect her privacy, which she thought I was invading. She expected me to come in and plead with her or fight her (persecutor) about removing it, so that way she could fight me back (or is it so she can feel justified for being in the victim position, because I am the mean warden that has kept her from being happy, therefore reinforcing her idea that she was the victim throughout this whole ordeal).


Is that correct? 

My other question is, did I help perpetuate the victim triangle by saying I already did it once I found that picture, essentially putting me in the victim position?

Thanks.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I wish that I could buy you a beer. Thanks. Again, it is going to take some time to understand. I am confused here on what she and I would be.
> 
> So, correct me if I am wrong here.
> 
> ...


Yes and Yes

You guys are elbowing each other for the victim chair.

Nobody wins that one.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes and Yes
> 
> You guys are elbowing each other for the victim chair.
> 
> Nobody wins that one.


thanks. That is what i thought. I will try to stop that. I realized it after I said it, but it already came out. I am glad that I am understanding it a little more than I thought. Thanks for pointing it out though. Once i can see it without it being pointed out, I will start doing better, i think.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> thanks. That is what i thought. I will try to stop that. I realized it after I said it, but it already came out. I am glad that I am understanding it a little more than I thought. Thanks for pointing it out though. Once i can see it without it being pointed out, I will start doing better, i think.


When she starts with that crap, you give this answer:

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

And, then go silent.

What can she do with that?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you. So in this case, I should have said "I am sorry you feel that way" and that is it. She did not say she felt any specific way though. Should i have just said "Ok", instead of bringing up that I already did it?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Thank you. So in this case, I should have said "I am sorry you feel that way" and that is it. She did not say she felt any specific way though. Should i have just said "Ok", instead of bringing up that I already did it?


Just agree with defiant people.

Why get into it?

When they project motives onto you, "I'm sorry you feel that way" works out great.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Just agree with defiant people.
> 
> Why get into it?
> 
> When they project motives onto you, "I'm sorry you feel that way" works out great.


Will do! Thanks!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Will do! Thanks!


How can she play "victim" if you don't do anything?

I realize it's reverse logic, but it WORKS.

Over time, many perpetual victims start to see themselves if we merely reflect their behavior back by letting them own their stuff.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Bad today. So, I am moving out of our place this week. She moved out to her parents and I just do not want to stay in this place anymore. Too many memories. I feel like I will not move on while staying in the marital home. 

I have been feeling good the last few days. Today I have been down in the dumps. I am moving all our stuff. I found our wedding photos. Really put me into a funk. Ah well. 

I then found the OM facebook page. He is the biggest douche I can possible imagine. I know affairs have nothing to do with the betrayed. I have a hard time not comparing us. He is definitely a step down (in appearance at least). She still shows married on her profile and he still shows single on his. They are not friends on facebook. 

Again, ah well. What am I going to do, right? 

Just one of those days.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hermes said:


> Bad today. So, I am moving out of our place this week. She moved out to her parents and I just do not want to stay in this place anymore. Too many memories. I feel like I will not move on while staying in the marital home.
> 
> I have been feeling good the last few days. Today I have been down in the dumps. I am moving all our stuff. I found our wedding photos. Really put me into a funk. Ah well.
> 
> ...


Hermes

Remember this when you are down, these are your WW own words.



> She just emailed me back saying "I think I’m set on my decision. But, of course, I would do this (therapy) for you. I still deeply respect and love you".


I put them here to remind you that your wife does not love you or respect you.

No matter what your issues are in your marriage a respectful wife would not be seeing another man while she is still married and lie about it. And a loving wife would love you no matter what issues you are working on in your life. In fact, she would stand by you for better or worse.

I know, my wife has stood by me for a long time through thick and thin.

Move forward. Forget the POSOM. He is a DBag. He cannot compare to you.

And in a year or so after your wife or exwife gets used and abused the POSOM will probably dump her or fade out of the picture.

And by then you will know what a good loving, honest woman is like.

Use that time to improve you!

So you are ready for the next woman in your life.

HM64


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> Bad today. So, I am moving out of our place this week. She moved out to her parents and I just do not want to stay in this place anymore. Too many memories. I feel like I will not move on while staying in the marital home.
> 
> I have been feeling good the last few days. Today I have been down in the dumps. I am moving all our stuff. I found our wedding photos. Really put me into a funk. Ah well.
> 
> ...


Just remember---this is the most difficult thing you will ever have to go through. Once this is over you will be stronger and better and have a better understanding of life. Hang in there. I'm praying for you.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Hermes
> 
> Remember this when you are down, these are your WW own words.
> 
> ...



Thank you. I needed that. I know that it will all work out. I have no doubt that she will hit rock bottom and realize what she lost. We will see if I want her back when that happens. 



Solon said:


> Just remember---this is the most difficult thing you will ever have to go through. Once this is over you will be stronger and better and have a better understanding of life. Hang in there. I'm praying for you.


Thank you. I am praying for you too. I appreciate your help. Thanks!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

happyman64 said:


> Hermes
> 
> Remember this when you are down, these are your WW own words.
> 
> ...


Happy,

I shouldn't have to remind you.

In this forum, it's posOM.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Happy,
> 
> I shouldn't have to remind you.
> 
> In this forum, it's posOM.


Thanks for the reminder Conrad.

Post edited and corrected.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, a few things.

1. The other day I broke down and texted a mutual friend (it is my stbxw best friend from childhood). I told her that I just wanted to know what she thought I should do. Should i go forward with the divorce or have hope this will work. She explained that she loves me and that she can not get in the middle. She said that she does not talk about it with my wife, either, because it has gotten to the point that it is at. I do not believe her, but whatever. She told me that she thinks I need to move on, stop fighting and just be a good dad. Obviously, she is only hearing my stbxw side of things, so I am sure she is making me out to be a monster. I instantly regretted sending her a message as soon as I hit send. Momentary lapse of reasoning and judgment. I texted the friend back saying I am sorry that I contacted her, I should not have put her in that position and I respect her honesty. I told her that it will not happen again. Of course, she told the wife that i contacted her. The wife has not said anything to me about it. I found out from my MIL, who is still VERY upset with the wife. Just utterly stupid on my part. What the hell was I thinking? That I would get an unbiased opinion from her? Really stupid.

So, that was Monday. On tuesday, I get an email from the stbxw (she sent it to me, her brother, her brothers girlfriend and my sister) saying:

Hey guys! My coworker sent me this—I’ve never considered using an absentee ballot, but I just sent out for one.
We’ll see if it works! But thought I’d send it out to you guys, in case you found it appealing as well:

So, I sent an email back to everyone else except her asking them why the hell she would send this crap to me? Does she think we are friends? My sisters response (who was a WW) was:

I think she is trying to keep everyone happy with her... She probably feels the distance and disconnect from the people who she was close to when she was with you. This is one of the things she probably didn't consider when she ran from the marriage. 

And *****es just be crazy.

Opinion? I tend to agree with what she said, but other opinions would be great.

Today I am going to go trick or treating with my daughter, stbxw, her best friend and fiancee. Should be a whole boat load of fun. I will just be positive and stay with my daughter. I plan to socialize with them and show her that she is not bringing me down. 

What do you all think? How should i act with her? She has shown no sign of any reconciliation or desire to reconcile. 

Thank you all. Lastly, tonight I move into my new place, which I am super excited about. Getting out of the marital home will be a blessing.

On a side note. I read No more Mr Nice Guy and it was like peering into my life. There is SO much from that book that I do it is scary. I have a lot to work on. The way i am starting to look at this situation is that I was given my stbxw so i can learn to be a better person. I have read so much that i know I will be a better person regardless of what happens.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Before you do questionable things, run them by us.

Please.

As for trick-or-treating

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

Observe her from 50,000 feet.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Before you do questionable things, run them by us.
> 
> Please.
> 
> ...


I will ask before i do anything from now on. I was packing our marriage pictures and books and found a journal of hers that said one of her goals (relatively recently) was to ensure that she kept the flame alive between us. It just sent me over the edge and got too emotional. 

Calm, Cool and dispassionate. Done.

Thanks Conrad.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I will ask before i do anything from now on. I was packing our marriage pictures and books and found a journal of hers that said one of her goals (relatively recently) was to ensure that she kept the flame alive between us. It just sent me over the edge and got too emotional.
> 
> Calm, Cool and dispassionate. Done.
> 
> Thanks Conrad.


How long ago did she write that?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I will ask before i do anything from now on. I was packing our marriage pictures and books and found a journal of hers that said one of her goals (relatively recently) was to ensure that she kept the flame alive between us. It just sent me over the edge and got too emotional.
> 
> Calm, Cool and dispassionate. Done.
> 
> Thanks Conrad.


Go over to Sweety's thread and see how she observed STBXH.

The picture of detachment. Great observations.

Go and do likewise.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> How long ago did she write that?


No date, but the notebook was not too old. Maybe 6 months to 9 months ago.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Go over to Sweety's thread and see how she observed STBXH.
> 
> The picture of detachment. Great observations.
> 
> Go and do likewise.


I will do that. Thanks!


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## NoWhere (Oct 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> I will ask before i do anything from now on. I was packing our marriage pictures and books and found a journal of hers that said one of her goals (relatively recently) was to ensure that she kept the flame alive between us. It just sent me over the edge and got too emotional.
> 
> Calm, Cool and dispassionate. Done.
> 
> Thanks Conrad.


 I have one better for you. I was packing up to leave and found a few of our wedding gifts and albums. None of this stuff has been touched in ages. Among all of this was a book about starting and maintaining a healthy marriage. One corner was bent. On that page was a part about "I love You, but I'm not in Love with you" The exact phrase my wife told me when she asked for a divorce. Just kind of spooky.

Of course the page in the book explained every person has a different way they view love. When one persons expectation of what the other should do to show that love doesn't meet their view they think they are not loved and not in love.

^My best at explaining it in short form.


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## Complexities (Oct 25, 2012)

What was the book??


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

" I love you but I am not in love with you is fog babble."

What it really says is "I have no idea what love is but I am going to keep looking outside myself until I find it".

Wish them the best of luck with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hermes

Conrad's advice is sound. And remember, Hermes was the Greek messenger God.

So have a great time trick or treating with your D. She is the only one that matters.

And your wife's friend did give you great advice. Be the best dad you can be.

Observe your wife. 

Do not bring up your marriage and just have a good time. That will be the best message you can send your wife. You will be happy with or without her.....

HM64


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## Madman1 (Oct 24, 2012)

So hard to read, be strong brother.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks for the advice everyone. 

So, last night, I went to the stbxw best friend house for trick or treating. I get there (on time) and of course, my stbxw is late. I sit there with the best friend (awkward) and 2 people I do not know. She shows up about 20-25 minutes late. My daughter comes to me. I give her a hug (my daughter) and the stbxw says hey. I say hello back. That is it. My daughter and I play while her friends get our wagon packed with drinks. The stbxw gets a drink, but I decline. we start walking to the houses. I have our daughter, while she is talking to her friends. This is the entire night. About 2 hours of me having our daughter (and my daughter not trying to have mommy do anything, she wants me), while the wife just laughs it up with her friends. I am in a good mood throughout the evening. I talk to a few of her friends and shoot the ****. Nothing deep, but I showed that I was in a good mood. 

On a few occasions, our daughter would go to a house with the wife's best friend, so I would stand on the street watching her. The wife would come stand behind me, but not say anything. She would just stand there. Then a few times she tried to start small talk with me, like "What time are you leaving for Disney (I am taking our daughter to disney for her 4th birthday this weekend) or what time will you be home, etc. I give her 1 word or very short answers and I move on. I do not engage her at all. I was talking to her best friends fiancee about "The Walking Dead" TV show and he is a season behind. She steps in (we used to watch the show together) and gets in the conversation. I do not address her at all, I continue with the conversation we were having and then I move on. 

At some point in the night, our daughter complains that she is thirsty and hungry. The wife says we will get you a drink shortly. 15-20 minutes later, nothing. I get upset (I do not show it externally) and say I am taking her back to the best friends house, to get a drink. The wife then tries to get the candy that I am holding, so she can "help" and I tell her I got it. She argues, so I just put it down and say "Here you are". She gives me some line about how it is unbelievable that I wont let her help me. Bull****. She was not doing a damn thing all night and now she wants to help because I am taking our daughter to go have a drink and something to eat, which you as the neglectful POS that you are have not done. Ok. I find out that she has not had anything to eat, drink or restroom since she left school (about 3 hours earlier). Obviously, I am livid with this. What a selfish POS. She does not even have our daughter use the restroom. What the hell was she doing for that time? She had to pick her up before 5:30 and she did not get to the even t until 7. It is only 25 minutes away, so that left her a whole hour to do this crap. Complete BS. 

So I walk our daughter to the house. The best friends parents let me in and they get her some milk. 25 minutes later, the wife and her friends show up. I tell the wife I gave her milk. I give my daughter a huge hug, tell her I will see her in a few days and I walk towards my car. I tell everyone goodbye in general (I do not say good bye person to person, especially to the wife) and I leave. 

I text the best friend "Thank you for having me, I had a wonderful time", to which she responded "Good! I am glad that you had a blast. 

I get to my house (my wifes brother is staying with me, since she took over his room at home) and he is on the phone with my mother in law who is, of course, complaining about my wife. She is lazy, being a slob, borrowing money, etc. She complained about this guy again (the mother in law). She asked the wife what she saw in him and this was her response:

1. He is a runner. He wakes up at 5:00 am and is running by 5:15.
2. He does not drink. 

Now, mind you, I decided to get a background check on this asshat, since I do not trust she will not expose my daughter to him. In 2009 he has an open court case for open container violation. Other than that, he had a misdemeanor for some registration violation. Nothing major. 

Overall last night was good. I spent time in the same vicinity as the wife. I realized a few things. 

1. I have NO attraction to her right now. I mean none. When I used to see her all i thought about was how gorgeous she was and how sexually attracted to her I am. Well, I felt nothing last night. she actually disgusted me. 

2. She only cares about herself. She is so selfish. She is not the woman that I knew and loved. 

So, I guess it was a good thing. Makes moving on a hell of a lot easier knowing that I have no feelings for her right now.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

50,000 feet.

You are seeing her as she is... not as you wish for her to be.

That's powerful medicine.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks Conrad. It is getting easier. She just emailed me about how frazzled she is over our custody arrangement. We agreed 3 nights with each, now she is frazzled by this. Whatever. She wants to talk Sunday about going a full week each.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Thanks Conrad. It is getting easier. She just emailed me about how frazzled she is over our custody arrangement. We agreed 3 nights with each, now she is frazzled by this. Whatever. She wants to talk Sunday about going a full week each.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

Don't get caught up in her chaos. That's how you ended up here in the first place.

Make her own it.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So should I say "I am not ok with changing the agreed upon schedule".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

To be fair, I suggested the week each a while ago and she did not want it. I would be fine with a week each. Should I tell we no so she does not have control?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> To be fair, I suggested the week each a while ago and she did not want it. I would be fine with a week each. Should I tell we no so she does not have control?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you're ok with it, it won't hurt to go along.

But, be firm that this is the last "adjustment".

There needs to be a plan that doesn't change daily.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

God. I had such a bad last few hours (work). I would give anything to be able to go home and get a hug from her.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (Oct 8, 2012)

Hermes said:


> Thanks for the advice everyone.
> 
> So, last night, I went to the stbxw best friend house for trick or treating. I get there (on time) and of course, my stbxw is late. I sit there with the best friend (awkward) and 2 people I do not know. She shows up about 20-25 minutes late. My daughter comes to me. I give her a hug (my daughter) and the stbxw says hey. I say hello back. That is it. My daughter and I play while her friends get our wagon packed with drinks. The stbxw gets a drink, but I decline. we start walking to the houses. I have our daughter, while she is talking to her friends. This is the entire night. About 2 hours of me having our daughter (and my daughter not trying to have mommy do anything, she wants me), while the wife just laughs it up with her friends. I am in a good mood throughout the evening. I talk to a few of her friends and shoot the ****. Nothing deep, but I showed that I was in a good mood.
> 
> ...


"right now" is the operative phrases....this is going to be hard and a long road. You might as well tell yourself that now so you won't get even more depressed when another week goes by and you are still having strong feelings for her.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Solon said:


> "right now" is the operative phrases....this is going to be hard and a long road. You might as well tell yourself that now so you won't get even more depressed when another week goes by and you are still having strong feelings for her.


I know right now I don't. I hope I do in the future, but if not, meh. 

Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Hermes, I have read your entire thread. It's good to see there other guys helping you through this transition. And I do mean 'transition.' I believe you wrote earlier that you are 29. I suppose your stbex is also around that age. A little background:


I am 50 and my stbex is 52. I have had two previous marriages. At 22 I married a 27 yo hottie who was bi-polar. Man, that was 5 yrs of some of the best sex and bizarre ups and downs. I finally had enough, wasn't going to ruin my 30's. At 32 I married again. Pretty stable for almost 12 yrs, or so i thought. My ex checked out on me the last 3 yrs. Neither of them cheated. Now you would think I was older and wiser. 7 yrs ago I met the most goregeous Hispanic lady. She was engaged and I had a girlfriend ( we all hung out at the same place after work). long story short, she was divorcing and I was single.. we talked extensively for 3 months (emails all day long from work, evening together,etc). Live together for 1 year and married the past two. She is very financially independent with a very high paying job... However, the mask came off and satin was reveiled. This lady has 4 kids from 3 different men. Has cheated on everyone of them. Has cheated on me several times. She, like your soon to be ex had a man on the line within days of our seperations. She plays the 'I need to find myself' stuff everytime. I was so in love with her I overlooked everything and took her back 6 times. My wife suffers from Borderline Personality Disorder. If you research that you will find they are snakes. They put up a front to the world, lie, cheat are emotionally detached, selfish to a flaw. When my wife would hurt my feelings and I would tell her she need to apologize her reply would be , "Ive already forgiven myself." SMACK down. She is emotionally cruel and she knows it.. she thrives on ruining men and they have no emotion attachment and really never have any true guilt for how they can destroy a man.. when she got with me told me her ex felt sorry for me. I thought I was different. Well let me tell you brother, I was a fool. Another aspect of BPD is that they grow up in a very disfunctional family (such as you IL's). The one true thing we share is that 'cheating' occured. I lost the trust. Our relationship never was going to work and I am slowly learning that.. (she's been go 6 weeks, NC, clocked my cell and email) I have no idea where she is and she has caller ID at her office so my messages about bills I leave on the answering machine. At my middle age I have discovered one thing about me. I am CODEPENDANT. I seek my happiness through others... I perceive a lot of that in you... You issue is that you have a daughter. Focus on her and you.. I hate so be so forward since I am a month late on this, your wife has emotionally checked out on the marriage a year ago.. she's had a year head start. She had this in the back of her mind for a long time and did not shar it with you. Women tend to do that. Once the honeymoon is over and daily life starts to kick in, women want that 'high' again. Become bored with their partner, start looking for flaws to complain about , emotionally check out... but trust this.. just like my wife. She left all her other husbands and had wild romantic affairs.. returned to her husbands only to go have more wild affairs... I believe your wife is starting this cycle.. don't be her landing strip until she refuels and flys off agian... Men are different, we become comfortable. We tell our wives how we feel... women are good communicators in a marriage. They hold things in, until they 'have had enough'. Then they plan an escape. Don't do things with the intention of how she is going to feel about it.. she ambivient... You aren't going to make any headway here. Work on your codependence... get your self estteem back.. you're young.. your 30's will be much better. You will find a woman, take it slow. There are good ones out there that aren't takers... remember this, "you should go into a relationship to give something, not go into it with the idea of what you can get out of it." If both people aren't on that same plain.. it's doomed.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>She plays the 'I need to find myself' stuff everytime.<<

Loosely translated:

"I want to explore this new relationship with posOM - out of your view"


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Hell mine was seen out partying with her 32 yr old daughter at a bar right outside the AF base... i don't think my wife is going to go the cougar route.. but most guys my age wouldn't put up with it.. I did because I know I have codependant tendencies. Mine is gone. I have my bad days.. I figure in a few months I will be okay.. but then the feeling will come back when I get the papers served.. my wife is very vengeful.. Last December she demanded a new wedding ring because her friend got one that was bigger. she wouldn't wear her ring for a month, so i upgraded it at christmas.. she cheated on me again in March this year.. that's not love.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Hell mine was seen out partying with her 32 yr old daughter at a bar right outside the AF base... i don't think my wife is going to go the cougar route.. but most guys my age wouldn't put up with it.. I did because I know I have codependant tendencies. Mine is gone. I have my bad days.. I figure in a few months I will be okay.. but then the feeling will come back when I get the papers served.. my wife is very vengeful.. Last December she demanded a new wedding ring because her friend got one that was bigger. she wouldn't wear her ring for a month, so i upgraded it at christmas.. she cheated on me again in March this year.. that's not love.


Ostera

You only made 2 mistakes.

A. Marrying her.
B. not shoving that new wedding ring where the sun doesn't shine. Then again pawn it and buy yourself something you like for cash tHat is untraceable.

Move on and go be happy.

HM64


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Crap. What a day already. 

So, last night I see the wife posted on her blog 

"Dearest…

I seriously dread interacting with you. You are incredibly abrasive with me. I did not hate you before, but we are definitely making our way there…what would be better?: apathy or dislike? I myself, can’t decide."

I do not know if she knows I read this. It is a personal tumblr blog....

So, I call the wife this morning to talk to our daughter and I am nice to her and cheerful to her. We talked for a minute. I cracked a little and told her that it is very difficult to talk to her and be happy. I told her that I care for her and want to be friendly for the sake of our daughter. I told her that if she needed to talk to someone about anything, she can call me. She said she really appreciated that and she did feel that she could not talk to me and that she was dreading every interaction with me. She said that she understands why i feel that way.

That was all for the phone call.

She emailed me later in the morning

"Hey—so as I was talking to her teachers about A's trip with you, I realized that I did not pack her costume. So I quickly tried to call my mother so that she could bring it with her to work and I could pick it up from there.

Then she tells me, she didn’t finish sewing it; she wasn’t sure when the Mickey’s not so scary Halloween trip was.
::sigh:: She knew you were going to Disney this weekend. I guess she thought there was a separate trip for the Disney Halloween thing? I don’t know…

Anyways, I have two questions:
1)	Would you be able to pick up her costume tomorrow? If not, no big deal, I’ll just drive down, pick it up, and drop it off at your place. I was trying to leave for Orlando right after work so that I’d get some time with my aunt tonight and that would obviously delay me. So I figured I’d ask. But of course, A’s happiness and well-being is my no. 1 priority, so I would not hesitate to do the extra driving. Just let me know.
2)	I’ll have to talk to my mother later about how long she needs for the Rapunzel costume, but if she can finish it tonight, would you want to wait and pick it up tomorrow? Or just have me (if I’m dropping off a costume tonight), drop off Snow White? 

*My response:*

Hey!

There is no need for the costume. The Halloween party ends tonight, actually. There is no need for you or your mom to anything for the costume. 

Enjoy your trip. Please give my best wishes to your aunt. (side note, her aunt has stage 4 cancer and is going into a 3rd chemo treatment)

Talk to you soon.

*She responded with:*

Ooooh. Really?? Then she won’t get to go trick or treating there? I’ve been telling her she would be.  I’ll have to break it to her that I was wrong. Never too young for her tp get used to me saying that! Lol 
Ok then. I’ll let my mother know. She was in a panic.

I’ll let my aunt know you said so.

One last Q and then I’ll leave you alone!—May I meet you guys at the school just to say goodbye and safe travels to baba ghanoush?

*To which, i responded:*

Yes, unfortunately, it ends today. 

That is fine if you want to meet us at school tonight.

Have a great day.

*Final response from her:*

Ok. Thanks. Then I’ll see you at her school to say goodbye to her. If you have a moment, I’d really appreciate just a text when you are on your way over so that I leave right away and don’t keep you guys waiting. But if you don’t have the time to, I’ll leave at 5:00 same as usual.


So, here are my thoughts. I feel like I have to do the 180 (which i have been). I need to not initiate contact with her (again, I have been), unless it is about our daughter. But, when she initiates contact with me, I should seem happy and cheerful. I should not give one word grumpy answers. I need to be firm, but also happy. right? The way I see it is, if I am nice, but set boundaries that will not allow her to walk all over me, then she will start to miss me (now she doesn't because to her it is an awful experience to talk to me, so it is just making it worse) and possibly want to reconcile. I guess my issue is how do I be nice, yet still distant. I may have gone overboard with the "Hey!, Have a great day!" crap. I have to learn to be nice and civil, but also dispassionate. I also need to control my expectations. I got bummed today because I was expecting a response that would indicate some affection. I know that I should not have thought that, but i can not help it. I need to learn to give without the expectation of getting in return. 

Thoughts?


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Oh Hermes!

When you saw "Dearest" on her FB you should have asked her if that message was for the POSOM.......

You need to communicate with her only about matters pertaining to your child.

And if she wants to talk to you that is fine but can you trust her enough to tell you the truth because as long as she is in contact with the oM her judgement, emotion and feeling about you will be fogged over.

HM64


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

HM64, I know marrying her was a huge mistake. That was another ultimatum she gave me.. throughout our 3 yrs she always pulled the, If you don't (fill in the blank), we're through. Trust me.. I actually loved her (and still do). I have been betrayed. 

I married an illusion. She's Borderline Personality. After I was 100% emotionally invovled she started to change. I asked her why she is so different from when we were dating and she said she was trying to 'impress me'. It was all a game.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> Oh Hermes!
> 
> When you saw "Dearest" on her FB you should have asked her if that message was for the POSOM.......
> 
> ...


I know. It was not on FB, it was on her personal blog that she does not give out. I know that it was addressed to me, (I assume she would know that I would look at it). 

that is fine, but should I be nice to her when we talk? Does that make a difference? I know that some people say that now I need to be like the OM (in the sense that I need to do what this asshat did to destroy us, which is talking and affection). I think she is going through a MLC and is definitely in the fog. I do not believe a word she says right now, but I do not want the door to close on us completely, which is why i thought being at least polite would be a wise move.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I know. It was not on FB, it was on her personal blog that she does not give out. I know that it was addressed to me, (I assume she would know that I would look at it).
> 
> that is fine, but should I be nice to her when we talk? Does that make a difference? I know that some people say that now I need to be like the OM (in the sense that I need to do what this asshat did to destroy us, which is talking and affection). I think she is going through a MLC and is definitely in the fog. I do not believe a word she says right now, but I do not want the door to close on us completely, which is why i thought being at least polite would be a wise move.


posOM did not do anything she did not allow.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> posOM did not do anything she did not allow.


i know that. I understand that. The point I was making was that she obviously was not getting some need met by me. Most likely, affection and intimate conversation. This guy most likely gave her that, since she was not getting it at home. My thought was that if I was nice to her (again, still doing the 180 and not initiating conversations, not calling/texting, etc) that she would possibly miss me because things would fall apart ( as they always do) with this guy.

Also, I thought that for my own sanity, I could say that I honestly tried everything, if it does not work. Even in a difficult situation like this, I was the better person. 

Talk me down, if I need it. I am in your hands. You all have helped me a lot so far. I can not see the forest for the trees right now......it makes sense to me (i did go through his needs/her needs last night, so maybe that is where this came from)


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Hermes, you need to just be you. What you are doing is trying to act the way you think SHE wants you to act. You're living for your WS. That's not living brother. The difference with me and you is my stbx went NC and we don't have kids. Other than that, at the beginning I did what you were doing. Trying to win her back. All I accomplished was NC initiation.. I don't even know where she lives.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> i know that. I understand that. The point I was making was that she obviously was not getting some need met by me. Most likely, affection and intimate conversation. This guy most likely gave her that, since she was not getting it at home. My thought was that if I was nice to her (again, still doing the 180 and not initiating conversations, not calling/texting, etc) that she would possibly miss me because things would fall apart ( as they always do) with this guy.
> 
> Also, I thought that for my own sanity, I could say that I honestly tried everything, if it does not work. Even in a difficult situation like this, I was the better person.
> 
> Talk me down, if I need it. I am in your hands. You all have helped me a lot so far. I can not see the forest for the trees right now......it makes sense to me (i did go through his needs/her needs last night, so maybe that is where this came from)


Your focus is all on her.

You need to focus on you. 

She may or may not take notice.

Do it for you. 

Because you need to rebuild yourself regardless of the status of your relationship.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I also need to control my expectations. I got bummed today because I was expecting a response that would indicate some affection. I know that I should not have thought that, but i can not help it. I need to learn to give without the expectation of getting in return.
> 
> Thoughts?


What would you expect me to say to this?

Giving with expectations is the ticket to emotional hell.

Here's the thing, if you "nicing it up" can be done WITHOUT expecting/hoping for something in return, then it's fine.

But, clearly, it's not fine.

You're not ready for that.

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

No need to be impolite, but no need to make her comfy.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Conrad said:


> What would you expect me to say to this?
> 
> Giving with expectations is the ticket to emotional hell.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Ostera said:


> Hermes, you need to just be you. What you are doing is trying to act the way you think SHE wants you to act. You're living for your WS. That's not living brother. The difference with me and you is my stbx went NC and we don't have kids. Other than that, at the beginning I did what you were doing. Trying to win her back. All I accomplished was NC initiation.. I don't even know where she lives.


Thanks. I am trying. I have good days and then fall a few steps back. I want to be with her despite the **** she is doing. 



spun said:


> Your focus is all on her.
> 
> You need to focus on you.
> 
> ...


I know. I can see how I am focused on her. I am taking her feelings (hating me or being uncomfortable talking, etc) into consideration, but I have been programmed for a decade to do that. Old habits die hard, i guess. I have to deprogram myself.

I am doing a lot for me that she will not notice (since she is not around me to see), but there are some things that I know she will notice and I do them for me, as well, but in the back of my mind I am hoping that she sees it and does something about it. Stupid.



Conrad said:


> What would you expect me to say to this?
> 
> Giving with expectations is the ticket to emotional hell.
> 
> ...


You do not need to say anything about it. I know it. I know that it is a HUGE issue. It is an issue that I never realized i had. I know that, throughout, my both intimate and platonic relationships, I would give something (affection, gifts, anything) with the subconscious understanding that I would get something back for it. As above, I need to deprogram that from me. It is hard though. I know that it is wrong. 

I will continue to "nice it up" for the sake of our daughter. I am not planning on being friends with her. I am planning to instead of being abrasive and abrupt with her, I will be friendly, but firm. I do not plan to grovel or beg her for a second chance. I will stay friendly, though, for now, since I do think that it is the best for my daughter. If I see that being nice is causing me to still hope for something, I will stop immediately. 

I think being out of my house this weekend will help, as well. We are switching to a week at a time schedule, which means I will not need to see her at all (since I will pick up my daughter from school directly). 

Really, I think i need to get out of my head right now. 2 days ago I was fine. I genuinely was disgusted by her actions. Now, I am pinning for her again. What the hell?

Thanks you guys. I really mean it. I am glad that I have this place to just vent.

Cool - easy. I have been able to keep a calm head talking to her (except for being a little rude, which i think i am being)
Firm - easy this is easy, since I do not want to give her what she wants.
Dispassionate - not so easy.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So little update for today. My wife's aunt has stage IV cancer. She is already gone to two chemotherapy treatments. She was in remission for a while but now it's back. She is leaving this coming up weekend to go for her third bout of chemotherapy and the doctors prognosis is not good. The aunt had all of the family come up this weekend so they can have an essentially this may be a goodbye the last time I ever see you party. My brother-in-law tells me earlier this week that my wife was having issues going because she has her marathon on Sunday (which is where she met this guy). The brother gives her **** about not going to see their dying aunt and choosing a marathon over it and realizing what a selfish piece of crap she's being she goes. A normal sane caring person would go for the entire weekend which all the other family are, but nope not my wife. She decides in her infinite wisdom to drive up early this morning and spend about six hours with her aunt and then leave to go back so she can make sure to make it to the marathon tomorrow morning. Most likely she is going home so she can stay at Scott's house. So they can drive to the marathon together tomorrow morning. Who the hell does that? Is this a typical symptom or mentality of a person going through the fog? I know she's being selfish but I assumed that she would not walk away from a family member that's about to die, just so she can participate in some stupid half marathon. *****es.

Please forgive typos, as this was spoken to text. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Your logical observations tell your delusion what - exactly?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

That she is a selfish, lying cheat that is a shadow of the person that I thought I knew. All she cares about it is what is happening between her legs.

That being nice to her is not going to accomplish anything. That I need to go dark again, as I am only torturing myself with false hope. That I need to cut ties with her family and not try to get info out of them, since that keeps me in the game and helps maintain false hope. That I need to disengage, because of she is willing and capable, with no remorse, to knowibgly choose an event over a family members (that was there when she was born) potential last party, what could she be capable of doing to me?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Not who you thought she was?


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not who you thought she was?


Nope, not at all. I guess I am seeing who she really is and not the delusion that I built up in my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not who you thought she was?


Nope, not at all. I guess I am seeing who she really is and not the delusion that I built up in my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Hermes said:


> Nope, not at all. I guess I am seeing who she really is and not the delusion that I built up in my mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hermes

You are correct.

Selfish. Check!
Entitled. Check!
More concerned about her boyfriend. Check!
Liar. Check!
Cheater. Check!

Did I leave nothing out???

There are much better women out there Hermes....

And you need to sever ties with her family. Darkness is your friend.

HM64


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> Nope, not at all. I guess I am seeing who she really is and not the delusion that I built up in my mind.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You now understand that this 50,000 feet thing is all about.

We simply MUST use our logical brain to observe who we are with - and the reality of who they are.

Only through this sort of observation can we hope to offset the delusions of our right brain - as to what they represent.

This does not mean we "fall out of love" with them. But, it makes us much more capable of loving ourselves enough to not put up with their crap.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I can understand that. It doesn't make it any easier but I can understand at least how this will help me. Up until this morning we were friends on Facebook. I logon this morning to post a picture of me and my daughter on her birthday and finds that now the ex-wife has friended the other man. She knew that I would see this. I immediately unfriended her and changed my relationship status. My family unfriended her as well once they saw it. She obviously has no respect for me whatsoever. So I realize I can't do what I wanted and hope that being nice to her is going to make any difference. So it is back to being dark. Eventually this affairs got a fizzle out and she will come crawling back and by then I'm not going to want her. I am so pissed right now that I'm seeing red.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Don't be pissed man, you gave it a shot and she dropped the ball. Its time to releave your self from this women and move on with a smile on your face....something that will show everyone that you are a confident man that has the strenght to move on and be better for it.

This positive additude that everyone will see will get back to your STBXW and thats the best revenge for the crap she has put you though.

Sure grieve the loss of this marriage but in the same breath show every one that her bull crap will not define you and in the end you will always be better then her and that she can no longer bring the worst out in you.

These positive action will show her and every one else that your wife is no longer your problem.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I can understand that. It doesn't make it any easier but I can understand at least how this will help me. Up until this morning we were friends on Facebook. I logon this morning to post a picture of me and my daughter on her birthday and finds that now the ex-wife has friended the other man. She knew that I would see this. I immediately unfriended her and changed my relationship status. My family unfriended her as well once they saw it. She obviously has no respect for me whatsoever. So I realize I can't do what I wanted and hope that being nice to her is going to make any difference. So it is back to being dark. Eventually this affairs got a fizzle out and she will come crawling back and by then I'm not going to want her. I am so pissed right now that I'm seeing red.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Use the righteous anger for something positive.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

The free weights will feel my anger tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

I go to sleep hating her last night. I dream about nothing but her, me and the posom. I wake up missing her. What is wrong with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostinspaces (Oct 22, 2012)

Mornings are the worst for me as well. I had a significant setback today. I wonder what it is about mornings that undoes so much of what has been gained.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

lostinspaces said:


> Mornings are the worst for me as well. I had a significant setback today. I wonder what it is about mornings that undoes so much of what has been gained.


Same here. Mornings are the worst. Most likely because I dream about her. I never dream bad things about her, always nice and lovey things. So I read my thread in the morning to get perspective back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dazedguy (May 16, 2012)

Hermes, I've been were you are right now. The mistake I made was in thinking that there was something I needed to say or do to snap my wife out of her fog. What I've learned is, what she is doing right now has nothing to do with you and when you undertand that and stop focusing on her you will end your own suffering.

If you are anything like me, when you hear advice from people here about how you should act towards your wife, you probably are thinking in terms of "what do I need to do to show her, help her, prove to her", etc. If this is your mindset it will torture you as you try to exercise some control over a situation that you have no control over.

I read dozens of books over the last 2 years searching for the "thing" I needed to do. Accepting that I have no role in "saving" my wife was probably the most useful lesson I have learned in all of this. Accepting that for yourself will allow you to focus on healing yourself despite whatever your wife does or doesn't do. It isn't in your control.

I know how hard this is to hear, but there is nothing you can do to stop your wife from destroying your marriage. Try to trust me on this one. Everyone here that's been through this personally and is giving you advice is giving you advice to help YOU save YOURSELF not help you save your wife.

If you haven't already I again recommend you read these booklets Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity. They described in vivid detail exactly what was happening to me and from the WW's point of view. Very helpful for me to see things from her perspective. Note: Read both - the first is too simplistic but sets up the 2nd which is very helpful. It finally slapped me out of believing I had some role to play in saving our marriage. PM me if you aren't able to get them or just want to talk.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

After reading a recent post by Conrad on Sweety's thread, I got to thinking about my faults in this relationship. I want to have a better understanding of what and who I am, so I can move forward and not make these faults come back again.

- I am a nice guy. I put my wife on a pedestal and thought nothing but the world of her. I never thought she would be capable of what she has done. I did not look at her as a sexual person (outside of being with me).

- I never communicated. We would talk, but I never gave my full undivided attention to her. I would always be doing something else or just listening to appease her

- I never participated in her interests. She is a runner. I hate running. To me, running is the punishment you get in real sports (sorry to offend any runners here  ). Likewise, she never participated in mine, but I should have tried harder to take an interest in her recreational activities. 

- I lied to her. I lied about stupid things that made no sense to lie about. I did this because I was ashamed she would think less of me and leave me. I tried to please her no mater what. This is something that I did with everyone. I would lie to family and friends to make myself look/feel better. My father left me when i was 4 years old and I feared the same would happen if i told her the truth. The thing is, the truth was not bad. It was stupid little things that, looking back, would not be reason enough to end a marriage. 

- I was very affectionate, but affection to me was sex. I would hold her hands, hug her, kiss her, etc, but usually with the end goal of having sex. I would give her a hug and immediate grab her butt. I always assumed that affection is affection. But I realize now that affection is different from admiration. Sex is not everything. 

- I was distant. I am a loner, by nature. I would come home and want to unwind, so I would sit in my room at my PC or do something that I wanted to do.

- I did not have my own activities (other than my PC) that I would do without her. I have NO friends other than family. I would always spend all my free time with family. I have 1 guy friend (her brother) that I consider (and he does too) my brother, regardless of what happens with my relationship. 

- I would guilt or manipulate to get what i wanted. 

- I shifted blame on her to cover my own insecurities. 

- I played the victim, because I would always put her above my own needs and then "woe is me" when my needs were not met.

- I never confronted her with problems that I felt or worries that I had.

- I depended on her to make me happy, and would use any method in my arsenal to make that happen. I did not care if I lied, guilted, etc to get what i wanted from her.

- I NEVER stood up to her. I would always just go along with what she wanted. I was never decisive. I assumed that if I just went along with what she wanted, she would be happy. I did not think that she would want someone that would choose (even if she did not want to do that) what were doing/going and stick to it. I always deferred to her for decisions.

- I always gave to her and to others with the subconscious understanding that I would get back for it. I never gave for the good of giving. When i did not get something back, I was resentful and bitter.

I will post more later. These are what I can think of off the top of my head.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

dazedguy said:


> Hermes, I've been were you are right now. The mistake I made was in thinking that there was something I needed to say or do to snap my wife out of her fog. What I've learned is, what she is doing right now has nothing to do with you and when you undertand that and stop focusing on her you will end your own suffering.
> 
> If you are anything like me, when you hear advice from people here about how you should act towards your wife, you probably are thinking in terms of "what do I need to do to show her, help her, prove to her", etc. If this is your mindset it will torture you as you try to exercise some control over a situation that you have no control over.
> 
> ...


thanks dazed. I did read both of those a while ago. Very depressing, but i know it is true. I know there is nothing that I can do to snap her out of it. I do know that she will snap out of it herself and try to come back. I need to not care IF she comes back. That is what I am trying to do now. 

Trust me. The advice i get on here has helped me beyond words. I do greatly appreciate everyone that has posted on her to help me.


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

Hermes said:


> After reading a recent post by Conrad on Sweety's thread, I got to thinking about my faults in this relationship. I want to have a better understanding of what and who I am, so I can move forward and not make these faults come back again.
> 
> - I am a nice guy. I put my wife on a pedestal and thought nothing but the world of her. I never thought she would be capable of what she has done. I did not look at her as a sexual person (outside of being with me).
> 
> ...


Hermes, that is spot on to how I was, EXACTLY. I've let my WW go and I feel liberated and free, I stand up to her now. It's too late for me but anyone listening just starting out in this situation look closely at these words.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes,

This is classic codependent/niceguy behavior.

Simply classic.

We delude ourselves into believing we're honest - and then we lie.

All done out of fear.




Hermes said:


> After reading a recent post by Conrad on Sweety's thread, I got to thinking about my faults in this relationship. I want to have a better understanding of what and who I am, so I can move forward and not make these faults come back again.
> 
> - I am a nice guy. I put my wife on a pedestal and thought nothing but the world of her. I never thought she would be capable of what she has done. I did not look at her as a sexual person (outside of being with me).
> 
> ...


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

And Hermes

You are acting normal. Of course you miss her.

But I know you are going to be fine.

Wanna know why?

Because you are able to list your faults.

After you get them all down, analyze them and figure out how to fix the bad and leverage the good.

You are going to be fine.

Just get everything fixed before you meet someone special.

And buddy, your wife and POSOM are nothing special so stop giving them any thoughts.

Work on you.

HM64


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Hermes,
> 
> This is classic codependent/niceguy behavior.
> 
> ...


I know. It terrified me that I acted like this.

the question is, how do I get out of this (not the relationship, my co-dependence/nice guy behavior)? I have been conscious about when i talk to people now about what i am saying. If I start to lie about something, I stop and try to be honest. It has helped, but old habits die hard.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> And Hermes
> 
> You are acting normal. Of course you miss her.
> 
> ...


thanks! I always thought I was pretty normal and good without major faults, but listing those has really shaken me up. I never thought I did any of that, but now I know that I did. 

I am trying not to give them any thought. It will be easier now that I will not see her anymore and am no longer friends on facebook with her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> thanks! I always thought I was pretty normal and good without major faults, but listing those has really shaken me up. I never thought I did any of that, but now I know that I did.
> 
> I am trying not to give them any thought. It will be easier now that I will not see her anymore and am no longer friends on facebook with her.


Hermes,

Take that list to IC.

Those behaviors will surface in your next relationship as well if you do not resolve them and learn to self-regulate.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Hermes,
> 
> Take that list to IC.
> 
> Those behaviors will surface in your next relationship as well if you do not resolve them and learn to self-regulate.


I will. Thanks. 

I will look for a new counselor. She immediately discounted my suggestion that I am codependent. She just said "Do not look too much into that psycho babble". 

I stayed with her for one session after that one, because it was the one after the wife and I went and I wanted some insight into what the therapist thought about my wife.

There is no need to stay with her if I am not trying to get info from her about my wife's state of mind and if she is just going to discount my behavior.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I will. Thanks.
> 
> I will look for a new counselor. She immediately discounted my suggestion that I am codependent. She just said "Do not look too much into that psycho babble".
> 
> ...


It's sad how many of them really stink.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

just to give you all an idea of her frame of mind. She is staying at her parents house now. Her brother is living at my old apartment (and paying for it himself). She is living for free right now. She hates living with her parents. Her brother and her are moving in with each other. He told her that she can stay at the parents house and save, while he gets a cheap place for himself. Her response was "How much can i save in a year", when he told her that she could save at least $6,000, her response was that she can get a boob job with that. 

He got angry with her. He told her that he is not spending his money so she can save up to get a boob job. She got angry and told him then "f_ck it, I am not living her, I will get my own place and save nothing". 

Wow. Just wow.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> It's sad how many of them really stink.


I know. Anyone have any recommendations for a good therapist in South Florida?


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

Hermes, hang in there. I am having a bad day myself. My wife hasn't talked to me in a month. She has completely vanished out of my life. I am trying to come to terms with the fact that who I married isn't who I thought. There were so many red flags at the beginning and everyone told me not to get involved with her. She has a very checkered past with men. I couldn't get past how beautiful she was and how she seemed to bond with me so well. It all ended up being a game to her. She has walked out of my life on many occassions and each time I begged her to come back. She is very controlling and I, obviously became dependant on her for my happyness, when actually there was constant drama in our relationship. I know that I have to move on and it's hard because I am still in the 'denial' stage... it takes time brother... today is hard for me.. The morings are especially difficult because I wake thinking of her and who she is probably with. I try to take comfort in the fact that my wife will never really have a 'soul mate'. She lives for the moment. Whoever she is with will get crushed just like I am... she will then move on to another.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> I know. Anyone have any recommendations for a good therapist in South Florida?


Center for Self Leadership, IFS Therapy Training (Official Site)

Check into someone certified in Internal Family Systems.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Center for Self Leadership, IFS Therapy Training (Official Site)
> 
> Check into someone certified in Internal Family Systems.


thanks!


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Center for Self Leadership, IFS Therapy Training (Official Site)
> 
> Check into someone certified in Internal Family Systems.


The closest is 3 hours away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hermes said:


> The closest is 3 hours away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Call them and get a referral to someone closer to you.

Someone in the business knows who is good and who isn't.

Tell them you want a therapist that will challenge you.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Will do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So some questions for everyone. To those that have been through this and have gotten to the point where they are detached, how did you handle the anger? I dread talking to her because I know my anger will show over the phone. I am not yelling at her, but I am cold. One word answers and I rush her to get off the phone. How did ou handle this, or is what I am doing ok?

Conrad, you mentioned getting to the middle of the triangle. Care to explain how?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Hermes said:


> So some questions for everyone. To those that have been through this and have gotten to the point where they are detached, how did you handle the anger? I dread talking to her because I know my anger will show over the phone. I am not yelling at her, but I am cold. One word answers and I rush her to get off the phone. How did ou handle this, or is what I am doing ok?
> 
> Conrad, you mentioned getting to the middle of the triangle. Care to explain how?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Eliminate the phone calls. Everything that you discuss at this point is business and therefore can be done via text or email.

You say "I'm no ok with communicating any other way than text right now".

She calls...don't answer.

She texts about something other than business or kids.

No response.

Oh and prepare for her to try to draw you back into her chaos.

Don't take the bait.

That's how you prevent the victim role playing and stay in the center of the triangle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> Eliminate the phone calls. Everything that you discuss at this point is business and therefore can be done via text or email.
> 
> You say "I'm no ok with communicating any other way than text right now".
> 
> ...


Spun,

Thanks. Most communications are done via text, but she calls to talk to my daughter. She called this morning to say good morning to our daughter and then asked to talk to me. She wanted to talk about our daughters tuition for school. I answered her, but in short answers. I know that I am being abrasive. I feel it. I can not help it. I am not rude or abusive, just cold. Obviously, I have every right to be that to her. She makes my blood boil right now. 

So in the future, if she asks to talk to me, should i tell her to email me or text me?


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

When she answer the phone and hand it to your daughter, 

Say it's mommy calling, no need for you to get on at all.

Send her text now saying you are not ok with talking on the phone.

"Please send anything you'd like to discuss in a text".


You will feel much better when you don't have to speak directly to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

spun said:


> When she answer the phone and hand it to your daughter,
> 
> Say it's mommy calling, no need for you to get on at all.
> 
> ...


thanks! I will do that. I am sending her the MSA again today. She has yet to sign it. I will put in that email to please send anything you would like to discuss in text or email going forward.


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

Perfect.

Now prepare for the fury that is going to come your way.

You just stay in the center.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

So, I am sending her the email now.

how is this:

M,

Attached is the final signed Marriage Settlement Agreement. Please sign it and get back to me, so I can get it to my attorney.

Going forward, please send anything you would like to discuss via email or text.


M

Any changes that you all would make? (this is directed at the forum, not part of the email)


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## jdlash (Jun 18, 2012)

Don't ask her if she would like to make any changes. If she does, she will. Don't open the door willingly though.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

jdlash said:


> Don't ask her if she would like to make any changes. If she does, she will. Don't open the door willingly though.


I did not. I was asking the forum if there were any changes that you all would make to my email. i will edit it now to be clearer.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

*So, I sent her this:*

M,

Attached is the final signed Marriage Settlement Agreement. Please sign it and get back to me, so I can get it to my attorney. I will send originals to your attention today via UPS for tomorrow delivery. Have the originals signed and notarized.

Going forward, please send anything you would like to discuss via email or text.

Thanks.
*
She responded with:*

We have to discuss some things regarding.

I would call you tonight, but I want to focus on celebrating A's birthday.

Does this mean no more e-mails? I can only contact you via text messages?


We still need to discuss custody, and I’m not sure how you want o discuss that over text message. 

She responded within 2 minutes.

*I am going to respond with:*

What is there to discuss? We are switching, as per our conversation, to a 7 day schedule. Yes, further communication should be via text or email. 



Is that ok? should i change the verbiage at all before i send it to her?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

No, that sounds fine.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> No, that sounds fine.


Thanks. I sent this:

What is there to discuss? We are switching, as per our conversation, to a 7 day schedule. It is already detailed in the updated agreement.

Yes, futher communication should be via text or email.


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## Hermes (Oct 8, 2012)

Please refer to new thread going forward.

Thanks!


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