# Looking for a second opinion on advice received from counselor



## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

I discovered my wife cheating on me a couple months ago. We have been trying to repair our marriage but it's very hard for me. For starters, she never told me everything about the affair. She first claimed that they were just friends and it took for me to confront her with cold hard facts before she finally admitted to the affair. Even then, she only admitted to them kissing and that was because I told her that I knew that she kissed him (based on messages I saw before she deleted them). What I'm trying to say is that she has only told me things that I already know. She is trying to downplay the affair and says she is hurt by it. 

The thing is, I don't know if the truth of what they did would make me feel better. She said that they never had sex and that they never touched each other except for when they kissed. I know for a fact that they spent multiple occasions alone going to lunch and sitting together in the car talking. She claims that they never went to a hotel and never had sex but that just don't sit well for me especially when I consider that the affair went on for at least a couple months. I can't believe that 2 grown adults that are both married would take the time to text, talk, and spend time together everyday if nothing sexual was going on. I found his wife through Facebook and told her everything. AFAIK, the affair is over

So we have started counseling and in the last session, we began to talk about the affair. I told the counselor that it's hard for me to move on a trust her since she hasn't given me the whole truth about what she did. He pretty much told me that even if she told me the full truth, there would still be some doubt in my mind that there is more that she is hiding. Furthermore, he said that in order for us to move forward in the marriage and make things work, I need to put what she did behind me and I NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING SHE SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE!!!!

This made me furious because I feel that as a man, I should not have to put myself in a position to believe her bull**** just so we can move forward in the marriage. If she feels that I believe her lies now, she may be tempted to use more lies in the future and then force me to believe them if I want the marriage to work. I got to the point that I wanted to punch our counselor in the nose. Of course, she agrees with what he said and I feel like they are trying to railroad me. Her story has changed multiple times and she has even let a few details slip that I didn't know before. Some of the dates and times don't match up and as I mentioned before, she will only admit up to the things that I told her I knew about. Every time I bring up the affair, she gets upset and says that I am punishing her and making her relive what happened. 

I know I'm not perfect but I also know that I'm not crazy. Do you guys think that this is good advice from the counselor. Even though I know that she hasn't given me the full truth and is still hiding some things about the affair, should I just drop it and tell her that I believe her for the sake of moving forward with trying to fix the marriage? I'm really stuck here because we have 2 kids and it's hard for me to leave them. Some days, I feel like things will be better and we can move past this. Other days I'm sitting and thinking about the "unknowns" between her and the other man and it gets me furious. Any advice would be appreciated!


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

While infidelity was not the reason for counseling,(my wife was abused by high school bf), when I brought it up, counselor said "We are here to talk about U, not her past" I should have left right then. Her past continued to cause problems until I forced issue again. 

You CANNOT be expected to FORGIVE & FORGET when you don't even KNOW what your forgiving. From reading a lot of TAM, this sounds like rug sweeping the affair and not getting to the real issues. Hence, it will never go away.


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## rustytheboyrobot (Nov 20, 2013)

Here's what you can do. Do these things please the future of your family depends on it. It's incredibly dangerous to rug sweep an affair, incredibly easy and temporarily relieving, and every cheater wants to do it. They don't want to accept what they do. To know that they did that. But it's the only way they will ever change, if they will.

You need to find weightlifter thread (standard evidence) and do everything. You need info to move forward. You've been living in the dark for so long you need to know what is happening. This may give you some information you need to take control of your life again.

I almost always recommend a 180. It didn't save my marriage but after, inadvertently, pulling a 180 I got an offer to reconcile. I blew up her affairs though. I told OMW. Was really scary to do. I didn't want to reconcile with someone like that, though. I really liked knowing that I could do it. Was an amazing feeling actually.

So you start ignoring her hard. You focus only on you. It sounds selfish when you start to think about it. That's because it is selfish. You are now going to do what is best for you. She can come along for the ride or she can bail. This does NOT mean you do what is bad for her. It's just that you are number one. Nobody will ever love you the way you need to love yourself.

Start spending time away from home. Find things to do. Definitely start going to the gym. This gets repeated and repeated over and over for a reason. Power through it. Find a hobby. I love meetup.com for all the new hobbies I've found. I'm sculpting clay and taking my dog out all the time. It's awesome. Change things up. Go through some fancy department stores clearance racks and find some new clothes. Look good you deserve it! While you're there spray some new cologne on you from the testers. Might as well smell as awesome as you are.

And draw a firm line. At first you aren't going to talk to her. You just find a way to do these things. Be mysterious not a jerk. Bring back that air of mystery. Make her chase you.

Once she's chasing you hard, hard. You tell her that you need to know everything. That you want to save your marriage but you know way more then she thinks. Hopefully you do because you followed weightlifters thread. Never ever give up your sources. Never tell her how you found the information you have. If you can't get any info you threaten to take her to a polygraph test or you divorce her. If you get the parking lot confession from the threat you may not need to go through with it. I would always go through with it though. That's just me. Find the money. It's your entire life dude it's worth it.

Fight through the TT and figure out what you are really up against. Would you go to war with a blindfold on? Yeah you wouldn't because you're not stupid.

Then you decide, YOU decide, whether you divorce her or not. You can file for divorce and pull it back later. I filed for divorce almost 12 months ago and am still dealing with courts while she pulls stupid stunts to keep us married. You draw the lines. You know what you need to devote the rest of your life to that already failed relationship.

It will be hard and you didn't choose this but you fight through it. You have no choice but to get up again and again every day and fight back. This is your entire life! Decide who you want to be, recognize who you are, and make this the reality. It's all about reality. Something us BS know all too well.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I don't have advice on whether the counselor's direction is good or bad, but maybe a 2nd opinion from another counselor is in order here, at the very least. 

And your situation is almost exactly why I ultimately left my WW after 10 months of attempted R. I actually believe my stbxWW didn't have sex, but I'll never know. And at the end of the day, it didn't as much matter to me what did or didn't happen once I knew (a) they kissed; (b) she did it again, and didn't choose to end it right then and there (and did it again and again and again); (c) she lied to me about it when confronted and of course while hiding it; (d) she told him she loved him during their affair (which had ended by the time I found out). What mattered was, I couldn't live with someone I no longer trusted.

Combined with living through the double trauma of trickle truth as more details got exposed (and I dug in hard, badgering literally 15-20 hours a day for weeks), the net conclusion for me was that I just no longer trusted her, and I could not live with someone I didn't fully trust. And it was not coming back, no matter how much counseling we went through. In fact, I announced it was over just after our MC stated, "I can tell you two are gonna make it."

I tried for about 10 months to R, I really did. I could have swallowed it all for the sake of my son, and she really did everything a WW is 'supposed to' do, once we got through the first few weeks of TT, and all would have been "fine", I believe. But it came down to believing her, and believing IN her, and I just no longer did. This is what we call having a deal breaker. What is odd is that I knew this within minutes of her first admission when I confronted her. I just wanted so badly to think differently, that I/we could overcome it. and I was OK spending the time to find out, because I wanted to be able to look in the mirror with no regrets and know I had tried my best to make it work.

It's been discussed a lot on this forum, and I've been adamant about the fact you're facing: there is just no way to KNOW when someone's finally and fully disclosing all, no matter what you say or threaten, and no matter what they say or swear upon.

People will tell a BS ”Just tell your WS to spill it all right now, one last chance, or you're going to D". But my issue here is, the only thing the WS can then say that will make you believe them is to say something much worse than you believed until that point. If they DIDN'T do anything more, there is nothing they can then say to avoid the D, except to now lie and say there was more. So, we simply don't believe them, and there is no way to tell. 

So if it comes down to "if she's telling the truth, I'd stay", I've become a fan of cutting to the chase and using a polygraph as the ultimate decider of what is true (as imperfect as that is), for three reasons
- for the threat of it, to measure their immediate reactions
- to drive for the classic parking lot confession right before a poly
- and/or to use it to decide that is the best you're going to get, and to decide to just believe those results, because it's all you're getting that is 'neutral'

But do the research, and get a good one, a professional with real credentials like being used by the police force, not some fly-by-night or the cheapest around. There is enough at stake to oay for the best around.

Yes, a WS may argue that you're belittling them, subjecting them to (you're not; they caused it), or believing a hokey, imperfect tool over them (yup; they earned it). Yes, people can beat a poly (and be sure to check internet searches looking for 'how to beat a polygraph'), and results can be imperfect and inconclusive, but to me, it's really the only tool we have, besides our gut. And our gut, frankly, is probably the BEST tool we have. If your gut is overwhelmingly strong that she's lying and hiding much more, than that to me is the best indication that she is. The problem is, in your state of mind, you don't know what to trust regarding your emotions vs. your head. But we see it time and time again here, that strong gut feeling is almost always right.

I'm not telling you to divorce, nor to use a poly. I'm just saying you've got to accept that you will never really, truly KNOW if she's fully disclosed everything (yes, even if she confessed to more right now), so maybe that's what your counselor is trying to help you navigate. What you do with all that is the unfortunate path you've now got to walk all the way through.

Good luck and I am sorry you're here.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

The fact that she continues to trickle truth you and tells you things you already know then you would be out of your mind to believe her. Time to schedule a polygraph. Adults do not act like children in high school. Why would she be willing to put her marriage in jeopardy for a few kisses....I doubt it and so should you.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Yeah unless you have evidence, there pretty much seems no chance she is going to change her story, and by the way go see another counselor because what he said was utter bull.

R only happens when the wayward is contrite but more importantly honest. How are you supposed to move forward when she won't tell the truth? And what's to stop it happening again if you don't get down to the real issues honestly about what she has done?

You simply can't.

If she's not going to spill then I suggest booking a polygraph test, you may not have to actually go through with it as the closer the date comes, if she is lying and knows she might be caught, might start volunteering more information.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

“told the counselor that it's hard for me to move on a trust her since she hasn't given me the whole truth about what she did. He pretty much told me that even if she told me the full truth, there would still be some doubt in my mind that there is more that she is hiding. Furthermore, he said that in order for us to move forward in the marriage and make things work, I need to put what she did behind me and I NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING SHE SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE!!!!” 

If a counselor would have told me that the way you wrote it I would have left and never seen them again. You have not been told the full truth about the affair and the very advice this counselor is giving is basically telling you to live in a world of doubt and questions. 

It also gives your spouse the “easy out” in all this. She must be held accountable for her actions just as she would have the right to do to you if the roles are reversed. You cant fix the marriage if you don’t deal with the problem that destroyed the marriage and that is the affair.


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## nightmare01 (Oct 3, 2014)

One MC said something similar. She said I needed to forgive my WW even though I knew that I did not know everything.

I asked the counselor and my WW - how can I forgive if I don't know what I'm forgiving?

That was the last time I went to that MC.

Sadly many - many - many MC's are woefully unqualified to counsel marriages where there is infidelity. Most it seems only have read a little here and there about how to handle it, and beyond that have very little experience.

One counselor we tried did have experience as it turned out... as a WS - who was NOT remorseful, blamed his BW, and left her for his OW. I only went one session with that jerk.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Your counselor is definitely not a good one. I've had formal education in marriage and family issues. Your counselor seems like he or she has been a wayward spouse at some time. You need to research the background of your counselors. How long have they been married? Do they have any children? What is his or her credentials. A Ph.D. in Marriage & Family Therapy is definitely the best one to have and one with a long time marriage, preferably not having a record of being a cheater. Your counsellor gave you a very bad advice as the wayward spouse needs to be transparent to begin healing.


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## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

rustytheboyrobot said:


> Here's what you can do. Do these things please the future of your family depends on it. It's incredibly dangerous to rug sweep an affair, incredibly easy and temporarily relieving, and every cheater wants to do it. They don't want to accept what they do. To know that they did that. But it's the only way they will ever change, if they will.
> 
> You need to find weightlifter thread (standard evidence) and do everything. You need info to move forward. You've been living in the dark for so long you need to know what is happening. This may give you some information you need to take control of your life again.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you brought this up as I've been trying to do this 180 for about a month now. I've been using time that we normally spend together to go to the gym and I've been trying to pay closer attention to my needs instead of hers. The issue with that is that from her point of view, she sees it as me coping with what she did and that sooner or later, I will come to my senses and everything will be fine and dandy again. The counselor tried to make it seem like I should be fighting to save our marriage but it's hard for me to fight when she is the one that messed up. I feel like she should be the one fighting to make things work between us.


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## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

honcho said:


> “told the counselor that it's hard for me to move on a trust her since she hasn't given me the whole truth about what she did. He pretty much told me that even if she told me the full truth, there would still be some doubt in my mind that there is more that she is hiding. Furthermore, he said that in order for us to move forward in the marriage and make things work, I need to put what she did behind me and I NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING SHE SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE!!!!”
> 
> If a counselor would have told me that the way you wrote it I would have left and never seen them again. You have not been told the full truth about the affair and the very advice this counselor is giving is basically telling you to live in a world of doubt and questions.
> 
> It also gives your spouse the “easy out” in all this. She must be held accountable for her actions just as she would have the right to do to you if the roles are reversed. You cant fix the marriage if you don’t deal with the problem that destroyed the marriage and that is the affair.


I agree. She agrees with everything he said and she is using it as an escape route. She keeps telling me that if I want to move forward, I need to forgive and forget. On top of that, she is against switching counselors now even though I've told her that I want to see a different one.


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## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

2xloser said:


> I don't have advice on whether the counselor's direction is good or bad, but maybe a 2nd opinion from another counselor is in order here, at the very least.
> 
> And your situation is almost exactly why I ultimately left my WW after 10 months of attempted R. I actually believe my stbxWW didn't have sex, but I'll never know. And at the end of the day, it didn't as much matter to me what did or didn't happen once I knew (a) they kissed; (b) she did it again, and didn't choose to end it right then and there (and did it again and again and again); (c) she lied to me about it when confronted and of course while hiding it; (d) she told him she loved him during their affair (which had ended by the time I found out). What mattered was, I couldn't live with someone I no longer trusted.
> 
> ...


I've never considered giving her a poly but it's already been suggested a few times now. If I did move forward with a poly, could that backfire in any way or potentially bring harm to our marriage. I mean what about the slim chance that she has told me the whole truth and they truly didn't have sex, wouldn't the fact that I made her take a poly sort of drive a wedge between us? Also, I will say that my gut tells me that more went on and I kind of feel that even without the poly, I'm positive that she is hiding a lot more about this affair.


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## nanofaan (Aug 1, 2014)

she already drove a wedge by having an affair. 
if you need to know the full truth it is your right.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

This is yet another example of why you need to shop around for counselors. Your current MC is an idiot when it comes to infidelity, seriously. He wants you to rug sweep the affair. Fire this crappy MC and find another who will hold your WW accountable for the affair.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

paulles said:


> I've never considered giving her a poly but it's already been suggested a few times now. If I did move forward with a poly, could that backfire in any way or potentially bring harm to our marriage. I mean what about the slim chance that she has told me the whole truth and they truly didn't have sex, wouldn't the fact that I made her take a poly sort of drive a wedge between us? Also, I will say that my gut tells me that more went on and I kind of feel that even without the poly, I'm positive that she is hiding a lot more about this affair.


Her affair has already driven the wedge in the marriage. What harm could asking her to take a poly bring? You don't trust her or what she says now. If she takes it and passes she isn't going to leave you because you didn't believe her to begin with. 

You got the trickle truth and now she has a counselor reinforcing that if she just keeps her mouth shut you should forgive and forget. You didn't cause this problem, she did. You aren't the bad guy here.


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## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

honcho said:


> Her affair has already driven the wedge in the marriage. What harm could asking her to take a poly bring? You don't trust her or what she says now. If she takes it and passes she isn't going to leave you because you didn't believe her to begin with.
> 
> You got the trickle truth and now she has a counselor reinforcing that if she just keeps her mouth shut you should forgive and forget. You didn't cause this problem, she did. You aren't the bad guy here.


Great point! When I feel like an *******, I have to keep reminding myself that she is the reason why we are in this mess anyway. I'm going to shop around for polys and I will mention the idea to her to see what her reaction is.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

the mge. you have right now is in the trash can---so stop worrying about saving what you don't have anymore

1st there must be accountability, and heavy remorse---it seems that your wife, just wants to rugsweep, and she definitely wants this behind her----you cannot allow that to happen-----

If she perceives, you handling this is a soft manner, she will cheat again, or continue cheating, knowing how you acted and responded this time, and knowing that she can get away with her cheating again----so you must be hard and tuff about how this is handled

she should be on her knees begging for a 2nd chance---instead she is fighting with you, and trying to make it all go away-----there must be CONSEQUENCES, AND ACCOUNTABILITY

The POLY, is the right move, if you wanna find out what actually happened tween them----if she refuses, then tell her D goes on the table

D. is your one true weapon---use it----you may not have to do anymore than threaten a D., just see where it all goes---but make sure you are not a NICE GUY about this situation-----

as to counseling----no more counseling until she shows she really wants the mge to R, thru remorse, and accountability


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## ricky15100 (Oct 23, 2013)

1. That councillor needs firing and never have a chance to destroy someone's life again

2. Your wife is lying, Un remorseful, likely to do it again, and is trying to rug sweep.

3. If she refuses to be honest and take full responsibility for her actions, then it's time to divorce


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Paulles

My WW swore on just about everything that they only talked, then held hands, then held hands while walking, then hugged, then kissed. But it never went further than kissing!!! Each time I would look at WW and say bull s--t. Well I'm sure you can guess they had sex!! My gut screamed at me and yours is as well. My WW lied through MC for five months. I was getting called out by the therapist every week for all sorts of crap. Then I realized something, I can call them out too. 

I did call both my WW and therapist out on the crap. I called WW out for lying and the therapist for allowing it. The therapists job when one lies is to mirror back to the liar. Call them out on their lies. I told the therapist that this jeopardized the integrity of MC. This turned MC around and we have made good progress from there. You need to either find a new therapist or call this therapist out his bulls--t.

Not knowing the truth will keep you in limbo which is hell. I've been there and it will drive you crazy. Your WW is the only person who can heal you and she won't. Have you brought up divorce to her? Why is this painful to her since she had the affair? Did the affair end because you found out? If you didn't confront would she still be in the affair? You need to find out much more information before you can R, and your WW doesn't sound like she's anywhere close to wanting R. Sorry you are here.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You know what her reaction will be already. Don't mention the idea or debate it with her. Tell her you are setting it up. The more decisive and in control you appear the better off you will be. She must believe you are serious otherwise you will just have more denial and blame shifting from her. 
Either way you need to find a new MC. You have no confidence in the current one and your not going to get anything accomplished.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paulles (Nov 2, 2014)

drifting on said:


> Paulles
> 
> My WW swore on just about everything that they only talked, then held hands, then held hands while walking, then hugged, then kissed. But it never went further than kissing!!! Each time I would look at WW and say bull s--t. Well I'm sure you can guess they had sex!! My gut screamed at me and yours is as well. My WW lied through MC for five months. I was getting called out by the therapist every week for all sorts of crap. Then I realized something, I can call them out too.
> 
> ...


Yes, the affair ended because I found out. Had I not found out, she would still be in it right now although she has been trying to tell me that day I found out was the same day that she was going to end the affair with him (What a freaking coincidence). She says that me bringing it up is painful for her because she says she is ashamed about what she did and it hurts her to think about it. That was another point that the counselor hit on because he said that I can't hold this over her head forever if I want to move on.

Also, I did try to call him out on the BS. I basically laid the story out for him and told him if he was in my shoes, would he believe his own wife. He pretty much gave me a non answer saying that it doesn't matter what he would do because he isn't in that situation. We have another appointment in a couple weeks and I'm tempted to just cancel the appointment now and find another counselor.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

paulles said:


> She says that me bringing it up is painful for her because she says she is ashamed about what she did and it hurts her to think about it.


You'll know when she's actually remorseful because that's when she stops thinking about herself and starts thinking how painful her betrayal is for you.



> That was another point that the counselor hit on because he said that I can't hold this over her head forever if I want to move on.


True. You can't hold this over her forever. But you will have to live with her betrayal forever if you choose to stay with her. She has to find out why and understand how she could betray you in the first place. Which means talking about the affair.

Find a new counsellor who has experience with infidelity.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

First of all your counsellor is full of [email protected] and is dangerous to your emotional well-being - drop him/her immediately.

Next, a poly could not possibly harm your marriage any more than your WW has already done with her cheating.

I agree with you in that two adults would not spend months being alone together and just kiss - I would say that there is a high percentage chance that this was full blown physical. You need to get checked for STDs since she is not admitting it, she will not tell you if she used protection.

There is also a strong chance that this has gone underground since you discovered it and confronted (she did not end it and come to you). As such, do not let her know that you still suspect her, but follow Weightlifters excellent advice/thread on going into surveillance to find out what is going on.

Be ready to dump her and file for D if you find out anything. You might be well served by doing this anyway - you can always back off the D later if you choose to reconcile.

At the moment she sounds like she is lying, is not remorseful (maybe she is sorry she got caught), is possibly still carrying on the affair and is relying on your "counsellor" to get her off the hook.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Wow bro, you are in for some serious hurt here. She doesn't want to talk about it "because it is too painful for" HER??? 

Stop and think about this. SHE has an affair, gets caught, and she is worried about how it impacts HER? 

This is what you are married to. This is what your "counselor" should be working through with you. Fire him, but don't waste your money with another one until you have a wife that wants to help YOU to heal. Which begins with disclosure. Until you are in this together, working on common ground, MC is basically useless. She is currently looking at MC as a way to make it get rugswept and go away. It is the exact opposite - a safe place to figure out the "why" and how to change that while working through you forgiving her for what she has done. 

From what you're saying, I'd bet almost anything this went physical. Why would it upset her so much to talk about it if it was just a little dalliance...?

You will get good help and advice here; listen to it. We're going to need more details.
- how did you find out? when?
- do you know the AP (affair partner)?
- is he married or in a relationship?
- where did they go for their "encounters"?
- do you know how many times they were together? over what duration?
- have you exposed?
- has she gone full NC, shown you evidence of it?
- has she written you a timeline of events? (you want this as a reference to validate her story consistency)
- what has she told you was her 'reason' for cheating on you? 
- is she appearing remorseful about doing it, or sorry she got caught?
- what does she say that SHE wants for your future (besides rugsweeping this affair - has she said she really wants the marriage?)
- can you verify that it ended, or are you just relying on her telling you so?
- do you now have full transparency to her activities, and full access to all her email, social media, and phone accounts?
- do you have a VAR? (get one, you're gonna need it)
- how did you react when you found out? 
- have you put D on the table as a very real option? 

Last but not least to begin with -- if it DID go physical, is it a dealbreaker for you or do you think you can get past it? And what does SHE think your dealbreaker is?

Buckle in bro. You're in for a long and rough road ahead, sorry. That gut of yours is right, pretty much guaranteed. And the fact that she's either still in a fog of affair high or comfortable lying to your face is a real serious issue for you to tackle.

Listen to the advice from posters above, it's real.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

fire your counselor.

file for divorce.

Your wife has zero leverage on how you decide to deal with this unless you are abusing her.

Asking for truth is not abuse.

the counsellor is looking for business


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

paulles said:


> Yes, the affair ended because I found out. Had I not found out, she would still be in it right now although she has been trying to tell me that day I found out was the same day that she was going to end the affair with him (What a freaking coincidence). She says that me bringing it up is painful for her because she says she is ashamed about what she did and it hurts her to think about it. That was another point that the counselor hit on because he said that I can't hold this over her head forever if I want to move on.
> 
> Also, I did try to call him out on the BS. I basically laid the story out for him and told him if he was in my shoes, would he believe his own wife. He pretty much gave me a non answer saying that it doesn't matter what he would do because he isn't in that situation. We have another appointment in a couple weeks and I'm tempted to just cancel the appointment now and find another counselor.


Only proves you cannot believe a word she says.

Have you exposed her?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Paulles,
The answer to your initial question is NO. Your counselor is inept. Think logically for a moment. You are supposed to "move past this" and trust your wife again was the advice, right? In essence, the counselor and your wife are saying that the way to move past being lied to is accept the lie. You hear that? The best way to get over being lied to is to accept being lied to??? Really?? Ask your WS to try that method on your kids the next time they fib. Is that the lesson you want you kids to learn? Is that the lesson you want your WS to learn?

What would our criminal justice system be like if you went to the police with an assault charge and the name of the assailant and they said "well, just accept that you were assaulted and that it will never happen again and move past it". No, they do an investigation to get to the truth and this makes the assailant uncomfortable. Then, when the truth is known, the charges can be pressed accordingly. If that didn't happen do you think that assailant would think twice about assaulting someone else? No reason to, they got off scot free.

There is a process that must occur in order for the WS to feel, understand and realize, as best they can, the full extent of the damage they caused. Short of that, it is merely an inconvenience to them and they will do it again. Sorry you are here and good luck.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

paulles said:


> I discovered my wife cheating on me a couple months ago. We have been trying to repair our marriage but it's very hard for me. For starters, she never told me everything about the affair. She first claimed that they were just friends and it took for me to confront her with cold hard facts before she finally admitted to the affair. Even then, she only admitted to them kissing and that was because I told her that I knew that she kissed him (based on messages I saw before she deleted them). What I'm trying to say is that she has only told me things that I already know. She is trying to downplay the affair and says she is hurt by it.
> 
> The thing is, I don't know if the truth of what they did would make me feel better. She said that they never had sex and that they never touched each other except for when they kissed. I know for a fact that they spent multiple occasions alone going to lunch and sitting together in the car talking. She claims that they never went to a hotel and never had sex but that just don't sit well for me especially when I consider that the affair went on for at least a couple months. I can't believe that 2 grown adults that are both married would take the time to text, talk, and spend time together everyday if nothing sexual was going on. I found his wife through Facebook and told her everything. AFAIK, the affair is over
> 
> ...


*Your counsellor should not be your counsellor, any more. In fact, he shouldn't even be a counsellor. At all. *

It's really as simple as that. He is actually endangering your future emotional well-being with his advice that the only way to continue your marriage is to lie to yourself.

Based on what you have said I fear the likelihood that some form of sexual activity took place between them is almost a certainty. 

In my opinion you should seek a new counsellor as soon as possible.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

the counselor is trying to fix the mge, at the expense of your well being---if the 2 of you want counseling both of you can go to an IC that works for each of you separately----as for mge counseling for now---forget it.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

P,

Been there.

First, you and your wife sans counselor need to have a "heart to heart" and only discuss One Point..

Do both of you Truthfully and Seriously want to put forth the effort to attempt an honest R. 

If not, start making arrangements for separation and move on towards D. The only focus should be to minimize financial and emotional loss. The truth means nothing now to the relationship. In essence the marriage is effectively over. 

Still want to R... Kind of strange, but now the Truth means everything to the marriage. Let's all be honest, 99% of all cheaters lie, downplay, and minimize. You want the Truth, your WS is just trying to survive and getting as far away from the affair as possible. Thus the Move On approach "looks" like the best choice to her. 

Remind her, to truly Forgive... you have to know exactly What you are forgiving her for.

Best of luck.

BTW, fire your MC today.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Do not waste any more money on the counselor.

Do not go back. 

If you had the A, your wife would be fine to rugsweep and just go forward? Ask her to reverse the roles for a few minutes. 

She would take you back and no consequences?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Paulles

Ask your therapist the following questions;
1) what ethics are you bound by?
2) how do I forgive if I don't know what I'm forgiving?
3) is it standard practice for you to jeopardize therapy with deception?
4) as a client how do I feel safe when my therapist approves deception?
5) as a therapist how do you provide ethical and professional therapy to my marriage using lies?

Find a polygraph technician, make an appointment and at MC ask your questions then hand your WW the date of the polygraph test. Leave this therapist at this point and wait at your car for WW. Tell your wife if she does not pass the polygraph you will divorce. Find out who her AP is and inform their spouse. Your wife is not ready for MC much less R. You need to stand tall and firm. Is your WW still in contact with AP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Mr Paul,

When you go to a restaurant do you prefer a waiter receptive to your wants and expectations or one who dismissed your order to provide what they feel you should enjoy? A MC is a double edged sword that most people cannot see as this sets up an environment of resentment and truth as well as commitment to the future, one way or another. In MC the couples will often, if not always, bring up past arguments that will invariably fan the flames of resentment but it is indeed needed to at least understand what the hell happened and to convince yourself, not the MC, that your are indeed a victim and not crazy. A good MC will acknowledge this since your feelings and perceptual reality of the matter mean something to you, and does not need to be justified to others. It also means that whatever you may be thinking and feeling is ok but it is your actions that define you to others that display who you are in others eye's.

With that being said your wife is a proven liar, cheater, manipulator and cake eater. And yes, your current MC is facilitating her unwillingness to own her actions. You did nothing wrong, despite how she may or does perceive you as being there are productive ways to handle diversity and conflict. When she had an affair a combination of cowardice and malice was used to uphold her rationale for the need for the affair. Look no further than this and adhere it to her character accordingly. She has, not had, a responsibility to inform you of her dissatisfaction's, if any, and has no excuse for eating her dinner that the restaurant messed up.

Now, since she is still obviously cake eating your only option is the most obvious yet hesitant one you must, not need, not should, not might, but must in order to fix this situation; Take away the fork and let her eat her heart away. Seriously, we, me, and many others will tell you that but only you can make that determination my friend.

You know what she has done, you know what she is capable of, you know that she will not consider your feelings, she knows a sweet tone of voice and a caressing touch will suck you right back in, and with everything you have discovered you know the truth. Now you must accept it for what it is, which is the hardest part and your redundant Q & A is a clear indication that you are caught in limbo, a very soul draining place of paranoia, fear and a multitude of other life stresses caused by infidelity. So now what?

A good defense is a good offense and this needs to start immediately. You can stay and tolerate what you are going thru or you can remove the object of your source of problems. She can't be reasoned with, or bargained with and everything else you may try will just be a sign of desperation. Why get a polly when you already know the truth? Why bother having the need to get a Polly to begin with, make the call damn it.

Expose her to your friends and family, expose the OM as well, and I mean hard, and while doing this make sure a Divorce is in the works so the effect can be swift, just and exacting. She will gaslight you into making this action of course your fault, and in truth it is your fault. Your action is a reaction and deciding factor to her cheating, lies and emotional abuse, take the power back and remind her that it was she and she alone who started this and that you, and say this with pride too, were the one who was going to finish it.

Time to send that meal back to the chef sir, it just wasn't made to your liking.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

OP... did you read Weightlifter's thread about Standard Evidence Collecting and Surveillance yet?

If not, I highly recommend you go read it now.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Then go to Best Buy and purchase a couple of VARs.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Her taking a poly would go a long way with you believing she has told you everything.

With that said, her TTing and clinging to this bad counselor and his bad advice, tells me that she'll probably never take one.

She may agree to take it, but I think that she'll back out before you even get to the parking lot of the place.

It's a good way to get some of the truth though. There's a chance that she'll tell you more about the affair and then say that she's now told you everything, there's no longer a need for the poly.

If so and she says something like this, you should tell her that this exactly why she still needs to take the test. She already said that she had told you everything. Then she tells you there was more. How could she think that you would believe her the SECOND time that she told you EVERYTHING, when she lied the first time she said she had told you everything?...


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Kind of a summary..

Drop the counselor
Start the 180
Have her served (leverage) you can always stop it if you want
Get her and you an STD test. Shows you don't believe. And for shock value
Kids? DNA test - for shock value
Check her phone for all the deleted texts, mails, pics.
Look for burner phone
VAR home and car
Expose to OMW. Perhaps friends & family for support?
Poly
Stay in 007 mode. Much more to uncover. 
Demand complete access to all accounts & passwords to everything. As soon as you get them start looking. Don't wait for her to delete. Check trash in email also sent mails. 
Check browser history. 
Check cell phone bills for call history
Maybe GPS the car

Possible they took it underground after dday.

Cars are great for oral and handy work you know... A Kiss means at least oral. Cheater speak.

Read MMSLP. Head to the gym. Get buff. I mean really workout. Free weights. See a trainer for a program if you don't know how.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Groundpounder, et.al. are correct that a poly is the best method of getting all the cards on the table. Hence, the MC is right in one respect; regardless of what she says, without confirmation you'll always have doubts that you've gotten all of the story.
At some point you're going to have to decide how involved she was before youre willing to call it quits. The trust is shot in the azz even if it involved only kissing and maybe a little handsy pansy . Now its just a matter of how far she went physically before you throw in the towel. If you've already decided you'll be willing to forgive and reconcile regardless if she slept with guy, it really doesn't matter if you have a play by play accounting.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I am so furious that I could barely get through your first post OP.

Your wh0re of a wife had better take your side and consider your feelings over anyone elses!!!!!!!!

Your wife is not remorseful which is key to being able to reconcile!

She needs to own her sh!t. all of it!

She needs to give you everything you ask for, not what she is willing to give. 

She F'd up! Not you. She has no power to dictate your reconciliation at all!

Dump that moron counselor yesterday!

The other advice you have received on evidence gathering and spy stuff is good but from this barbarians stand point, you should go berserk and destroy this situation!

I would file for divorce, show her nothing but fury and contempt and let her know that because she F'd up, you two are done!

If she did not have her fully exposed, naked ass up to me on a silver platter in the first moments that I was preparing the divorce, she would be done!!!

I realize that there are far more civilized ways to go about this but she did not act very civilized when she wh0red herself out and she is not acting very civilized right now!

How much more of her sh!t are you willing to eat?

I am not mad at you, I am mad for you! Very pissed that your wife and idiot counselor think it is funny to keep making you eat her sh!t!


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I am so furious that I could barely get through your first post OP.
> 
> Your wh0re of a wife had better take your side and consider your feelings over anyone elses!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


Crush your enemies!!!!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I am so furious that I could barely get through your first post OP.
> 
> Your wh0re of a wife had better take your side and consider your feelings over anyone elses!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...


AWSOME, Conan! Pure poetry. Amen!

Where the hell has all the testosterone gone. Dudes simply gotta alpha up, claim his territory and go caveman. Better yet, drop her skank az, find a younger hotter one and live well.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

paulles said:


> drive a wedge


Your old lady drove that wedge home when she cheated and sorry to tell you but the wedge is still there.

I personally could have never rebuilt the marraige until my old lady was the one that removed the wedge she created in the first place.

Why in the hell is it your job anyway? I mean my old lady phucked me over I'll be dam if she is going to dictate how I heal.

After all she made the choice to stay with me...now its my rules.

I bet if you started making a stand and started by changing this stupid counseler....then you will see how remorseful she really is.

I'm guessing here, but if you started healing the way you need to heal your old ladies plan B (you) won't look so good to her.

I'll finish off by telling you what I tell Mrs. the-guy and that is " consequences are a b1tch, except them or let me go."

Your giving your old lady a free pass...phuck that... she should be willing to do what every you need her to do to keep you....not the other way around!!!!!!!

That's my $0.02

Sincerly, the guy with the cheating wife.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Sorry Paulles. Some of the responses were really long and I did not read all of them but I read what you wrote and from what I read of the responses they and you are right on this. I had a marriage counselor like this. I had to let it go. And if I could not let it go I would screw things up. That was the counseling. And I was so confused I was like oh, yeah, maybe, sorry.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

harken banks said:


> sorry paulles. Some of the responses were really long and i did not read all of them but i read what you wrote and from what i read of the responses they and you are right on this. I had a marriage counselor like this. I had to let it go. And if i could not let it go i would screw things up. That was the counseling. And i was so confused i was like oh, yeah, maybe, sorry.


ouch!


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> ouch!


Least of my problems at the time. These quacks are out there. Collecting insurance checks.

Hah! I wrote that. But I paid for mine out of pocket. Several thousand dollars. Seemed like chump change. It was.

Anyway, it's a fraud.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Did your wife cut you off sexually before or during the affair?

Did you experience hysterical bonding?

You need to dump the counselor. One strategy is to go to the next session and impose your will on the counselor by firmly stating that rug sweeping is not good for your marriage.

Trauma should be addressed, not buried. 

If the counselor doesn't change his tube, thank for his services and indicate that you will an alternative.

You might read the thread of Road Scholar, a man who reconciled months ago and who finds the lack of radical honesty on his wife's part damaging.

Are you drinking more than you used to?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

paulles said:


> She says that me bringing it up is painful for her because she says she is ashamed about what she did and it hurts her to think about it.


With out consequences bad behavior continues, that's why you need to keep bringing it up......she hasn't learned a phucking thing so that's why she needs to get it all out on the table so you can stop bringing it up.

You guys have to face this crap head on ...right now...or the both of you are screwed when it comes to rebuilding this marriage. all this ughly crap she did needs to be put on the table so you can make the choice you need to make. She should be doing this for you and her. She needs to get this monkey off her back once and for all.

As painful as it was for both of us it was a step we both took in healing each other.

She needs to face this head on ...hiding from it will not affair proof her marriage in the future....feeling the pain in all this just might prevent it from happening again. But yet she has made the choice to hide from it.


How in the hell can you forgive when you aren't even sure what you are forgiving?

Who are you forgiving ....who has she become?

Its not going to do this marriage any good if your old lady hides from the shameful choices she made. It's time she fixes her self as an individual then she can work on having a healthy relationship with you.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Harken Banks said:


> Sorry Paulles. Some of the responses were really long and I did not read all of them but I read what you wrote and from what I read of the responses they and you are right on this. I had a marriage counselor like this. I had to let it go. And if I could not let it go I would screw things up. That was the counseling. And I was so confused I was like oh, yeah, maybe, sorry.


Nothing like apoligizing to your wife when she screwes around behind your back.

Pualies, please tell me you didn't tell your wife you were sorry for her cheating.......


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## SpinDaddy (Nov 12, 2012)

paulles said:


> . . . .So we have started counseling and in the last session, we began to talk about the affair. I told the counselor that it's hard for me to move on a trust her since she hasn't given me the whole truth about what she did. He pretty much told me that even if she told me the full truth, there would still be some doubt in my mind that there is more that she is hiding. Furthermore, he said that in order for us to move forward in the marriage and make things work, I need to put what she did behind me and I NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING SHE SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE!!!!. . . .


I disagree with your counselor and believe it’s something that intellectually needs to be approached with the philosophical position of “It is what it is” if you’re to move forward in a positive way.

I appreciate where the talk doctor is trying to go with you. You need to put it behind you to go forward but as a respected professor once said to me “You can’t un-ring the bell once opposing counsel has thrown a skunk into the jury box; best you can do is move for a mistrial.”

Same is the case with your situation. The bell’s been rung. You’ll never know all the truth, best you can do is accept that and move forward but don’t ever delude yourself.

Unfortunately, some things just can’t ever be changed completely back to the way they were before. That doesn’t mean you can’t go forward however.

Good luck pardner’


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

REALLY? I mean REALLY? This is 2014. Hello, she did not just kiss him. She did everything she could in a short span of time. I mean everything.

Do you really want to put up with someone like that SLEEPING next to you? Gross!

Listen to your gut. Go away to some place that you can think about things and see what your head says and then work from there,. Just my 2 cents! David


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## lisamaree (Nov 2, 2014)

She definitely did not just kiss him. I'm sure she probably slept with him in the car while they were "talking."

Separate everything, file for divorce. Serve her papers. Tell her you won't talk about R or anything with her until she tells the truth. I bet she will start talking then and if not then what did you lose? At this point if she doesn't tell you what happened then your marriage is already over.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

DavidWYoung said:


> REALLY? I mean REALLY? This is 2014. Hello, she did not just kiss him. She did everything she could in a short span of time. I mean everything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Put it this way... Name two high school kids that just kiss.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

paulles said:


> I discovered my wife cheating on me a couple months ago. We have been trying to repair our marriage but it's very hard for me. For starters, she never told me everything about the affair. She first claimed that they were just friends and it took for me to confront her with cold hard facts before she finally admitted to the affair. Even then, she only admitted to them kissing and that was because I told her that I knew that she kissed him (based on messages I saw before she deleted them). What I'm trying to say is that she has only told me things that I already know. She is trying to downplay the affair and says she is hurt by it.
> 
> The thing is, I don't know if the truth of what they did would make me feel better. She said that they never had sex and that they never touched each other except for when they kissed. I know for a fact that they spent multiple occasions alone going to lunch and sitting together in the car talking. She claims that they never went to a hotel and never had sex but that just don't sit well for me especially when I consider that the affair went on for at least a couple months. I can't believe that 2 grown adults that are both married would take the time to text, talk, and spend time together everyday if nothing sexual was going on. I found his wife through Facebook and told her everything. AFAIK, the affair is over
> 
> ...


Dear paulles,

As others have told you, your MC's position is wrong and not likely to lead to a successful reconciliation. Allowing your WW to _'rugsweep'_ the affair increases the likelihood of furture infidelity and will hinder if not prevent your emotional recovery.

Let me give you the CliffNotes version of the commonly accepted reconciliation wisdom of TAM/CWI:


No reconciliation is possible while the affair is on-going. Therefore, the first step is to end the affair. The WS promising to end the affair is often an insufficient reason to believe that the affair has ended because, in a significant percentage of cases, the WS either never stops cheating or goes back to cheating shortly after DDay. Therefore, the BS must take measures to ensure that the affair has ended. For this, see the Evidence Thread (http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html) which provides guidance on how the BS can monitor the WS's communications in order to determine if the affair is on-going.
In addition, in order to bring the affair to and end, it is generally recommended that the BS expose the WS's affair. Depending on the circumstances, this may include exposing to both spouses' families, friends, clergy and/or the WS's employer. It is also recommended that the BS expose the affair to the OM's or OW's significant other and/or family.
Once the affair has ended, the BS needs to decide what to do about the infidelity. Generally speaking, there are four courses of action: divorce, separation, maintaining the status quo (also known as _'limbo'_) and reconciliation.
Deciding which is the best course to take depends on a number of factors, including: a) whether the WS has admitted the affair, answered all of the BS's questions honestly and completely and demonstrated genuine remorse; b) the nature of the affair (e.g., how long it lasted, the degree of emotional and physical intimacy, the number of affairs); c) how long the BS and WS have been together; d) whether children are involved; e) the emotional health of the BS; and f) the mental health of the WS (i.e., whether he or she suffers from mental illness like BPD, an addiction and/or is abusive).
Whether to reconcile or not is solely a decision for the BS. In other words, the WS has no right to a reconciliation no matter how contrite he or she is or what the BS did wrong before the affair. A corollary to this is that the WS is solely responsible for the affair no matter what transpired previously in the marriage, because the WS always had the option of ending the marriage before cheating.
In order for reconciliation to be successful, the WS must be: a) contrite and honest about what he or she did; b) willing to answer all questions whenever and as often as they are asked; c) willing to give the BS access to all of his or her communication devices and channels; d) understanding and tolerant of the BS's grief, mental anguish and anger, looking for ways to help the BS recover and otherwise prepared to do the so-called _'heavy lifting.'_
Reconciliation is a lengthy process, often taking years to accomplish, and may be unsuccessful despite the best efforts of both spouses. The BS may not be able to move past the WS's infidelity and forgive or may at some point decide that divorce is the better outcome for him or her. Affairs destroy trust and respect, the pillars of marriage. It takes a long time to rebuild these and they are unlikely ever to be restored completely.
Finally, there are a number of aphorisms that people use in an attempt to convey essential truths about reconciliation. I believe two of the most useful are:

- One must be willing to lose one's marriage in order to save it and

- The party who is most willing to end the marriage controls the reconciliation.

These are closely related points, differing mainly about when the are applicable -- before or after reconciliation begins. The point is that, if the BS is not prepared to divorce the WS, the WS has little reason to do the hard work that reconciliation requires, is likely to lose respect for the BS (especially when female infidelity is involved) and may be more inclined to cheat again.

Bottom line, IMO not only do you have the wrong MC, your WW is not displaying the kind of attitude that is likely to lead to a successful reconciliation.

One more point. You will receive a lot of advice on TAM/CWI. Some of it will be very good and some of it not. It's your job to decide which is which and then put the good advice into action.

Good luck.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

The status of your counselor went from idiot to toxic enabler. 

How can you forgive if you don't know what you are forgiving?

If you followed the idiot counselor you would be in full rug sweeping mode and that would be a huge mistake.

Consider your spouse an active cheater until proven otherwise.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

paulles said:


> I've never considered giving her a poly but it's already been suggested a few times now. If I did move forward with a poly, could that backfire in any way or potentially bring harm to our marriage. I mean what about the slim chance that she has told me the whole truth and they truly didn't have sex, wouldn't the fact that I made her take a poly sort of drive a wedge between us? Also, I will say that my gut tells me that more went on and I kind of feel that even without the poly, I'm positive that she is hiding a lot more about this affair.


She may well have told you the entire truth. But she hid it all from you. So it is natural that you think there may be more.

My opinion is that not knowing will drive you nuts in a matter of months. My opinion also is that you have to try to calmly explain to her the effect her actions have had on you -- and that the consequences of keeping her interactions with the OM secret are that you now have doubts. And it is up to her to try to relieve those doubts.

She's now put you into a situation where you can't have peace without risking your marriage.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> Mr Paul,
> 
> When you go to a restaurant do you prefer a waiter receptive to your wants and expectations or one who dismissed your order to provide what they feel you should enjoy? A MC is a double edged sword that most people cannot see as this sets up an environment of resentment and truth as well as commitment to the future, one way or another. In MC the couples will often, if not always, bring up past arguments that will invariably fan the flames of resentment but it is indeed needed to at least understand what the hell happened and to convince yourself, not the MC, that your are indeed a victim and not crazy. A good MC will acknowledge this since your feelings and perceptual reality of the matter mean something to you, and does not need to be justified to others. It also means that whatever you may be thinking and feeling is ok but it is your actions that define you to others that display who you are in others eye's.
> 
> ...


Don't be too quick to expose to the world. It could hurt you and your wife should you chose to reconcile.

Exposure is a useful tool. And that's the point. Expose ONLY if it is useful. Telling the OM's wife (if he has one) is useful only to stop the affair. Doing it after the fact doesn't help you one bit.

Exposing to her parents won't help either. They will be on her side. They may not be happy with that, but they ARE their parents and won't stand by while she is tossed into the garbage.

Exposing to friends can also be useful, but again mostly to break up an affair. Fixing it so that she has no friends left will not make her happy to reconcile with her.

So figure out what you want and then use what tools are at hand to gain that result. Right now you need to know more of the truth. Work on that.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

IIJokerII said:


> Crush your enemies!!!!


Because THAT is the way to save a marriage!!!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Find a counselor who doesn't advocate rug sweeping as a marital aid.
Yours is an idiot, a dangerous idiot.

He/she isn't church based is he?


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Cheaters will always downplay what they did. From your persepective you just have to resign yourself that she probably slept with him.

As for the counsellor he is an idiot. If i were you i'd be discreetly checking up on the wife. Play dumb husband, fake that you are attempting to forgive and forget. Make her feel secure, thinking that she is home scott free.

In the meantime VAR her car, and GPS it. You will be surprised just how many affairs get taken back up or have just gone deeper underground.

Stay Strong & Good Luck


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## carpenoctem (Jul 4, 2012)

Paulles:

*I am surprised this counselor did not tell you that you must deem* *everything she might say in the future also to be true, *if you want to keep the marriage. 

In sum,* his advice is: you must be wise enough to act like a fool, if you want the marriage to survive.
*



This is not the place for frivolousness, but I would like to see the following scenario happen:

You don’t pay this counselor. When he asks for the fee, you insist it already has been paid.

When he refutes it, you say: *“YOU NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING I SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE.”*



This counselor's approach is not only going to make you look weaker right now when you need to project strength and self-confidence, but *it also is going to make your WW feel entitled to continued devious behaviour.

*It is amazing that a trained counselor can approach this issue in such a dismissive manner.



This is an over-generalization, but often, it is those who have been / are WSs or OMs themselves, who are so dismissive of / who trivialize a BS's trauma.

*It's self-projection, not wanting to put themselves on the dock, in their own mind.*

My gut feeling about this counselor indicates this.



May I suggest you divorce him from your reconciliation process?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

paulles said:


> Yes, the affair ended because I found out. Had I not found out, she would still be in it right now although she has been trying to tell me that day I found out was the same day that she was going to end the affair with him (What a freaking coincidence). She says that me bringing it up is painful for her because she says she is ashamed about what she did and it hurts her to think about it. That was another point that the counselor hit on because he said that I can't hold this over her head forever if I want to move on.


Your WW is not truly remorseful. True Remorse is about her concerned with YOUR feelings, that she would do anything to help YOU heal, and not rugsweep. This is a table that I post once in a while. Without True Remorse, you cannot have any hope of R.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Because THAT is the way to save a marriage!!!


Still waiting on any evidence to the contrary...........


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> Because THAT is the way to save a marriage!!!





ConanHub said:


> Still waiting on any evidence to the contrary...........


If the only way you can keep her from letting other men get in her pants is to keep these other men a bay, you ain't got much of a marriage to save. Here's the key element to a satisfying and fulfilling marriage . If she doesn't have will power to walk the line, it means she just not that into you.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Longwalk asked if your sex life changed during this period, before,during and afterward. This is a very important question.

What kind of phone does she have? You may be able to retrieve the deleted messages.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Who was the other man? Does she work with him?

How did you catch them?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I believe this counselor is thinking about his batting average.

He's focused only on what HE thinks is important, salvaging a marriage. That's what means success to him.

For you, you want truth. That could be at odds with what he's trying to do, bring about an undesirable result, so he's pushing it away.

Not sure what's the best course for your situation. It may be that she needs to see you walking out. It may be confronting the other man. It may be you hitting the ceiling and demanding the truth at the top of your lungs.

At any rate, its going to take something decisive and bold, IMO.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Paulles

Some questions, do you know who the AP is? Is he married? Co-worker? If co-worker does WW still work there? Has all contact stopped? If married expose to spouse. This is the best PI you can not hire. When and if you go to MC state that you cannot forgive based upon lies. Truth comes out now. As for the therapist urging you to forgive based upon lies, tell him you are reporting him to your states licensing board. Tell your wife you have scheduled a polygraph test. 

Paulles, you need to show your WW you can live without her. You will accept only the truth. WW's continued lies are the reason for the polygraph. It sucks that you have to do this but not knowing eats away at you until you die slowly. Take action now swiftly and firmly. Good luck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

paulles said:


> So we have started counseling and in the last session, we began to talk about the affair. I told the counselor that it's hard for me to move on a trust her since she hasn't given me the whole truth about what she did. He pretty much told me that even if she told me the full truth, there would still be some doubt in my mind that there is more that she is hiding. Furthermore, he said that in order for us to move forward in the marriage and make things work, I need to put what she did behind me and I NEED TO BELIEVE THAT EVERYTHING SHE SAID HAPPENED IS TRUE!!!!


Go back and tell the MC that what the MC is missing is that you can NOT believe your wife. Ask the MC how you are supposed to believe, when she's now proved she is capable of lying?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

turnera said:


> Go back and tell the MC that what the MC is missing is that you can NOT believe your wife. Ask the MC how you are supposed to believe, when she's now proved she is capable of lying?


 From the sound of it will just be a waste of time and energy as the answer to this will unsurprisingly be a variation of the following;

* "Well you need to start Sometime/Somewhere/Somehow"
* "By not letting it go means your deliberately holding onto it"
* "Her being here is a sign of wanting to move forward"
* " By focusing on the affair you are ignoring other aspects of the marriage that needs addressing"

Stand your ground with your feelings, they belong to you.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

sidney2718 said:


> Don't be too quick to expose to the world. It could hurt you and your wife should you chose to reconcile.
> 
> *This burden is enough to deal with on it's own and to cover up HER bad disloyal behavior is not his job, she made the choice and he has to tolerate the stress from it, alone, and isolated from the support of others is not going to be helpful. Should they reconcile she will forgive this since a truly remorseful WS will accept that they were the ones who introduced this problem to begin with!!*
> 
> ...


 By exposing he limits the ability to compartmentalize and employ reflective rationalization as well. With all avenues tainted by truth of the affair or closed of completely due to the affair he will now have the highest probability to obtain the truth and since she is still holding onto the entirety of the truth light up the fricking crack house and let others see what she is doing.... Then he'll see where he truly stands in regards to all of this by how everyone reacts. It is a win - win in my opinion.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

OP...yeah..oh.... you counselor [email protected]

as others have said find another.

heck it would be better to have no counselor compared to him(the one you have now). 

for heaven sake, you shouldn't have to pay a counselor to rug sweep you can do that for free.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

More so based on your WIFE'S REACTION....I fixed it for you



paulles said:


> We have another appointment in a couple weeks and I'm tempted to just cancel the appointment now and find another *WIFE*.


Sorry but TRUE remorse is the number one important thing a WS needs to have if the marriage is fixable. A WS needs to be ready to carry the burdens. Your wife is trying to rugsweep.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Sticking to the topic, about your counselor:

He/she is an idiot. Obviously not experienced with infidelity. That's about the worst advice you could get so soon after her A.

Fire him or her.


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