# I want you to tell me you love me so I can tell you I don't



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

With every day of this separation I am learning/seeing new things from H and honestly it makes me so ****ing sad & disgusted. The last 2 days a lot has been said and pretty much everything on the table. It was not a fight or even a argument and was a pretty blunt and positive discussion. 

To say the least things went to a place they shouldn't and this was how we started talking. Pretty much he started asking me if I still loved him and why I seemed so stand offish and a bunch of other things that almost made me feel like he missed me:scratchhead:Well I feel for the bait and told him I did miss him/loved him that I wasn't trying to come off as stand offish I was just having the kids ready when he came over or get them from the car so he didn't have to get out....I was trying to help and make it easier. Well as we were talking he kept asking me how I had changed and how I seemed so happy and if I missed him ect. Pretty much EVERYTHING and ANYTHING you can imagine a person would be saying if they missed you tooWell then he ask me to tell him that I love him as he is holding me.

THEN he tells me he doesn't love me anymoreand just can't live with me but wishes I could work something out with him when it comes to $$$ to make it easier for him!!!

Then he goes the conversation goes on and he makes the comment, 'I know I could come back and have you if I wanted'Well I look him right in the eye and say, 'Your pretty sure of yourself aren't you?? Your being extremely ****y and I don't think you KNOW what you could do!' Then with a very confusing look he says well I thought you wanted me back and I told him that I wanted the old him back but he had shown me a side of him the last few months that has been horrible and that I wont go back to living the way I was with him. That I had always put him up on a pedestal and built him up to be this amazing person and I guess the higher up the pedestal the harder they fall. 

I had thought he was manipulating me for the last few weeks and I got all the confirmation I have needed. I told him I had forgiven him for everything he had done to me but I was doing that for MYSELF because I wont sit here and be mad at him....it is not worth it for me. I think it is just freaking lovely he completely betrays me with another OW or a friend as he calls it and he thinks the ball is in his ****ing court....well I guess it was I was willing to fight for him and this family and he just doesn't give a ****!

I told him that if he wanted to run around and thought he could never love me again he needed to file for divorce and let me go. Then he sort of snorted and said he couldn't afford it and thought I wanted to stay on his insurance. Well sorry hunny the self respect is worth to much for that. 

I wanted desperately for this family to work I was willing to do pretty much ANYTHING but honestly how much am I suppose to take:scratchhead:

What is wrong with him?? I feel like I let myself become a victim in all of this and never again  I don't understand where all this ugliness is coming from with him. I know he says he isn't trying/wanting to hurt me but I really am having a hard time believing that. I have not been mean if anything I have been calm/polite/sweet and with that I almost feel like I am getting screwed because of that.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I FEEL THE EXACT SAME WAY! They have to be angry with us to keep doing what they are doing


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

It has to be something because I am sorry this is NOT OK. If anything it is just plain mean. I pity him that he has all this anger I really do.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I have a question do you think I should keep doing what I am doing....well the nice/calm/polite part or should I seriously just limit all contact with him all together?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

If Affaircare is around I would love her feedback


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

me too..


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I always in enjoy her post she always seems so clear and too the point


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

must be something in the water!!


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Good Lord...sounds exactly like my husband and I. The whole "ball in his court" thing and me being polite, etc. I want to look at my two teenagers down the road and be able to say I did EVERYTHING I could, but there are times this seems ridiculous!!! I have admitted my fault in the marriage, etc. But he moved out, had the affair and shows no signs of regret or humility (GAG!) I know him well enough that I wouldn't be surprised if he now just wants to move back in a month or two and pretend the whole thing didn't happen (9 months separated; 3 since I walked in on the girlfriend alone in his apartment.) He is mad I got a legal separation - crap HE raided bank accounts, etc.(through the judge I got my half back.) Good man underneath, but the evil twin makes me sick!! I see everything so much clearer and really question if the marriage can be saved. I am sitting still since I have the house (mortgage free), the better part of his paycheck and health insurance for now. Lawyer, counselor, etc. all say to stay put and play nice until I am sure I want the divorce. He is in a major midlife crisis/affair fog that I have to weather, as well. There are many days I'd rather say "ENOUGH ALREADY", but I need to be sure. Thankfully, I live in a state that takes this seriously (filed under separation AND adultery), and the judge has restrained him from anymore "sleepovers."


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Yep, that pretty much sounds like me other then the bank accounts because he knew better then to do that. I have pretty much everything and he is struggling right now and is really trying to make me feel guilty for it. 

I am like you when it comes to my children. I can say I fought and was willing to forgive and move on and do everything needed to keep this a family and he wasn't. I sleep at night and can look myself in the mirror because of that.


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Mine knew better than to mess with the bank accounts..he is an accountant for goodness sakes! I think he thought I was going to get to them first (I was pretty crazy in the first few days after discovering the girlfriend.) I feel SO MUCH better now. I know I can survive with or without him, and he sees me doing just fine on my own - lost a good bit of weight, wear nicer clothes, new hairstyle and am just plain happier (many people have noticed that one!) than I have been in a long time. He is 54, I am 49, and the OW is 36!! She has no education, does not have custody of her own child and is just plain icky! The affair (I think it has ended, as he knows my lawyer will file contempt of court since he is restrained from this stuff) was about sex and someone telling him how wonderful he is. Anyway, so much better to finally feel in control of my emotions, etc. and make a strategic effort to see if we can save our marriage. He has to want this as well, and I need to SEE the actions. I, too, don't get the ugliness. However, it doesn't get to me as much as it used to. Just part of the "script." One day at a time....


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Why should you put up with any of the ugliness? Be business-like--no more. If anything starts to go south in a conversation, you stop it right then--interrupt even, with "excuse me, but. . ." talk over him if he keeps talking, and flat out refuse to speak with him--just say you will be pleased to continue the conversation when he is in a more appropriate frame of mind, and then hang up/walk out, whatever. DO NOT give him time to respond and defend himself or escalate or even apologize (which, of course, is unlikely). He must learn he cannot treat you--wife, ex-wife, doesn't matter--with disrespect.

I'm amazed at how many people seem to have trouble just hanging up on someone. I have a mentally-ill relative so it happens a lot--and she "gets it." Not at the time, of course, but soon enough thereafter. I would keep a 24 hour rule in place, too, meaning you won't take a call or open an email sent in less than 24 hours from when you tell him the conversation is over. 

You resume by saying, where were we? as though the interruption was brief and insignificant in your life. Then, proceed to "conduct business." You decide the terms on which conversations about anything else might take place--in counseling together, perhaps? Until he can treat you as you deserve to be treated, he has no other access to any part of you but the businesswoman side, except in counseling, for example. He'll either learn or not, and that will be your sign on what to do next.

Business calls are about exchanging kids, money matters/home maintenance kinds of things--nothing else. No discussions of "how are you," "what are you thinking/feeling," "where do you think things are going?" Not even, "hey, I saw a movie you'd like . . ." Keep it very professional and redirect him to that if necessary, saying "We are discussing plans for Junior's birthday. . ." Again, if he goes off track a second time in a conversation, you are done, "I see you cannot stick to the business at hand. Let's try again tomorrow. I'll call you. Good bye." Then hang up/walk out. Don't let him come into the house, for this reason--you don't want to have to leave your own place if you can help it. Public places or his place, where you can just walk out. Meet him outside at your house, so you can walk inside and leave him outside if necessary. 

Remember, this is about being treated respectfully, not "teaching him a lesson" or anything else. It's about you and your right to be treated properly by everyone in your life. Good luck.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Sisters you are right about all of it. I just want to be treated with respect. I feel so weak and powerless and this is all new to me....I was never like this before. I feel like if I 'slip up' or make a wrong move then I will screw everything up. I just hate feeling this way


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Sisters you are right about all of it. I just want to be treated with respect. I feel so weak and powerless and this is all new to me....I was never like this before. I feel like if I 'slip up' or make a wrong move then I will screw everything up. I just hate feeling this way


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well H came over to drop off the kids and I could just tell by the look on his face something was up. He keep starring at me and smiling and almost had a dumb lost puppy look on his face. He got out of the car to pet the cat and came inside. We had a pleasant conversation about the kids. He then invited me to come to our kids game with him and I sort of changed the subject. 

Well when he was leaving he grabbed me and hugged me and told me he missed me sometimes but just couldn't live with me right now. I hugged him back but didn't say anything. 

I wanted to say....maybe someday or I know but I didn't. Probably because I just didn't even know what to say. I can't put myself out there yet again to get hurt by him. 

I am pretty sure him seeing me happy is somewhat effecting him and he is noticing I am changing. I feel stronger then I ever have. Its strange how you can be so weak and emotionally beat but then be strong too.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

That sonds encouraging.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf it was BUT I am not letting myself try to make anymore of it then it was a nice conversation and a hug with him saying he missed me sometimes. If I try to dissect it and figure it all out I will just drive myself crazy lol

Part of me wants to run to him and tell him I miss him too and even go to the game together but then part of me wonders if honestly it is the best idea? I know we were talking about the 4th of July and where we wanted to bring the boys and he was almost talking as if we were going together. I have no problem with this but I also wonder if I am setting myself up to be hurt again too.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Oh, when H asked me about the game I said I didn't want to intrude with time with the boys and he told me that he was inviting me so I shouldn't think that way.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

check out my post on the infidelity thread-after the feedback I received, I am going to stop doing things with them.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf I just did... I think we are in a very similar and painful boat  

We have not done anything together yet, well other then go look at daycares. I am scared if I start to do things it will could maybe back fire in my face. I am scared it will make him think that it is OK what he has done and that he can still play house with me when ever he wants too. 

I don't want to punish our children in all of this but I have to look out for there mom's best interest too.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I agree. I mistakenly thought it was a sign he wanted to spend time with me.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I think it is something that can easily be seen as a 'sign' that is why I am honestly debating on not doing it. He is all over with his emotions right now and it is very apparent and right now I am in a very very important step to healing myself and I just cant put myself there with him if he is just going to play with my emotions like he has been for over a month. I am NOT willing to take a HUGE step backwards.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

My Husbands emotions have been all over the place this past month too- he has brought up the one baseball game we attended 2 weeks ago like 5 times saying how much fun he had, he had been making an effort to be friendly and rational with me for almost 2 weeks this month too. Now he is back to irrational anger and demands. I am going no contact, no more outings together.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I think this is honestly for the best right now cmf  I fear that I am going to have to do the same thing. My H is being very nice right now but I have this bad feeling it is going to back fire. I think he is beginning to realize the reality of the whole situation and I am scared he might lash out on me because of it.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I just got done with a 'texting conversation' with him that he initiated and he is either starting to see a lot of things or is a complete narcissist and is fully trying to hurt me and is getting off on playing mind games with me. I am scared it just might be the last one because he THINKS the ball is completely in his court. I am going to back off I think even more then I already am because I am really getting scared it might be the latter.... 

If he is seeing things and is truly wanting to work on himself and our family he will come to me.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I agree. My husband called earlier, spoke to our son and set up plans for tomorrow without even speaking to me about them- we had a temporary visitation plan for this week and he knows it did not include Tuesday. I am thinking we will not be around for his plans. I get the impression my husband also feels he is running the show.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

It really freaks me out because he has never been a game player and if anything was far from that, but it was life the last 1.5 months he got pretty good at it  It is very disturbing to me it is not making me want him more if anything it is terrifying me and I am sincerely worried about him. It is really unhealthy BUT I wont let him drag me into the misery he is creating for himself....sorry but I wont let that happen.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

It must be the affair"fog". My husband is a completely different person now. I just want to settle support and visitation and try not to think about it for awhile. I have been warned that when the reality sets in and the fog starts to lift- watch out!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

the strange thing is it was just an EA and it was pretty much all him not the other women. It was just a co-worker he was lying to me about talking to and meeting with. I think he really thought it was going to go somewhere and it didn't....well at least it hasn't that I know of. 

I think the reality is setting in and it is scaring him and he is almost freaking out and being combative. Well it is not getting him anywhere its just making him look really angry and mean. I can understand being hurt....I get that but he is being out of line. He messed with my mind/heart so much the month before he left it is shocking he thinks he CAN play these games.


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

finallyseewhy and cmf - I swear the same evil twin lurks in our husbands! Saw mine briefly last night and for the first time I really wanted him to LEAVE. Asked myself what I ever saw in him (23 years ago.) I see him starting to suffer the consequences; legally, financially and with me & our two teenagers. cmf - what did you mean by when the fog lifts "watch out?" I think the fog is beginning to lift, and wonder (probably too much) what is next. I hate having to question his words and actions as being either authentic or manipulative. I seriously did not sign up for this emotional drain...


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I meant he can do a couple of things- become violent possibly towards you, try to come home in a manipulative way ,make all kinds of promises and just continue behaving the same way. I actually don't know what I would do at this point- I honestly do not trust anything he says or does. But I think my husband will be facing his legal and financial consequences soon too. Our children are suffering but he blames it all on me- despite hearing about it from others. I agree, it is very draining. I am choosing to have as little to do with him as possible right now.


----------



## Scott G. (Jun 1, 2010)

Wow, be careful here. Sounds like a bit of an undercover charmer. Definitely appears to be some self-serving manipulation going on. It appears he may be expecting you to wait around for him so that he has the option of going back to you after he "figures things out." But even if he's not, to get you to open yourself up like that and then immediately say things so hurtful and full of himself, is very self-centered to me.

Hope things are going a little better for you at this point. Like the being cordial with the "business" conversations. It's awesome how your being diplomatic with him for the kids.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Scott funny thing is when all this was going on(right after we separated) I asked him(I am ashamed of myself) if he just wanted me to wait for him when he figured things out.....he told me couldn't ask me to do it. 

I have a feeling there is some self serving manipulation going on his part and it just makes me sick. It doesn't make make me yearn for him but if anything disgust me. I would like to think that I am wrong and maybe it just that he is beginning to see thing but I just have this feeling it is the other  As he said he 'knows he could have me back and just come home if he wanted to' so I guess he figures he can just do what ever the **** he wants.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Oh I forgot to add he told me last night when we were texting that he didn't think I wanted him because anymore because when he came over I wouldn't do something sexual with him that I knows he likes. I told him I couldn't give myself to him that way if he wasn't will to give himself to me. He told me, 'well you had me for that moment' I told him I needed more then a moment


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well today was very very eventful in a good way I think/hope. I will come back later and write it all out. It has been a long day.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Can't wait to here, finallyseewhy! I'm holding my breath! LOL


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

_I just realized I updated in the wrong thread _

UPDATE:

Well the other day H came over and I was very emotional not because of him but it was the 1st day our children went to day care(only 3 hrs and I don't even have a job but we wanted to see how it went) He grabbed me and asked what was wrong and he ended up kissing me and telling me he was miserable the last few days and missed me and wanted to spend the day with me and make love. He came back after he dropped of the kids and to be honest it went great. He was very open about his feelings ect and it felt like we really connected on a deep level. I said something when we were together that I didn't know where it came from. I told him that I loved him, wanted him to come back, but I wouldn't let him break me.

Well today he came over today to bring me somewhere I needed him to bring me. Well he started to sort of have a mental break about his fiances and told me he was going to have to live in his SUV because he wasn't going to have any $$$ left. Which is true after paying me child support, day care, and his expensive extended stay he is left with maybe $20-60 a week. He was on E and the gas light was on. He has a good job but its expensive. Well I told him I was sorry and will pray for him and he sort snapped and said that praying wouldn't put gas in his car or food on his table!
Well we ended up going to lunch(I paid) the kids were with us and they were hungry....it was overall a pretty nice meal. I told him that I felt as if he wanted me to tell him I love him and almost beg and he told me that he wanted me to tell him for years.

Well tomorrow he gets paid and will have to pay child support/day care and I know he is going to bring up money. I told him today I felt as if he was manipulating me and saying things that he knows would get to me.....saying he had no food/was going to have to live in his car. He said he wasn't...that he wasn't that good at doing it

Its sort of strange because I am feeling better, stronger, and almost clearer. I love him and miss being a family unit. I feel like I am at a crucial turning point and don't know what to do. Part of me thinks I need to give an ultimatum and then part of me feels like I need to just wade out the storm.

Please Help

______
I wanted to add that the women he had an OW with they work together so having no contact is not possible. I did comfort her and truly believe it was just co-worker/friendship for her....she did NOT know he was lying to me about meeting her/texting. I will say I can tell he was just wanting for something to open up. He got very wound up in all of it 

_____

Well I just looked at the account and he is not going to make it this week on what he has. I feel bad because he has a really great job but with child support/daycare/expensive extended stay hotel it just is too much. With that said this is a situation he put himself into

If Affaircare or anyone is around I would love some feedback. I am seriously scared and almost want to turn off my phone because I imagine today is not going to be fun. I really can't because he is coming over today to get the kids so I HAVE to talk to him.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> Well the other day H came over and I was very emotional not because of him but it was the 1st day our children went to day care(only 3 hrs and I don't even have a job but we wanted to see how it went) He grabbed me and asked what was wrong and he ended up kissing me and telling me he was miserable the last few days and missed me and wanted to spend the day with me and make love. He came back after he dropped of the kids and to be honest it went great. He was very open about his feelings ect and it felt like we really connected on a deep level. I said something when we were together that I didn't know where it came from. I told him that I loved him, wanted him to come back, but I wouldn't let him break me.


This is some good "Carrot and Stick" (aka Plan A) stuff finallyseewhy. It sounds to me like you wanted to and were willing to make love and I have no doubt that is one of his Love Kindlers so good job. Also it sounds like you two talked on a deeper level, which is another good thing. Bear in mind he may be doing some of this to "butter you up" or for selfish reasons but in a way that's mildly okay because the point of this step is to let him see that you CAN stop the Love Extinguishers that hurt him and you can also be the woman who kindles his love. It's not a "competition" with the OW but rather you just be the woman you have the potential to be and the shining beacon for how to find his way back to the marriage.



> Well today he came over today to bring me somewhere I needed him to bring me. Well he started to sort of have a mental break about his fiances and told me he was going to have to live in his SUV because he wasn't going to have any $$$ left. Which is true after paying me child support, day care, and his expensive extended stay he is left with maybe $20-60 a week. He was on E and the gas light was on. He has a good job but its expensive. Well I told him I was sorry and will pray for him and he sort snapped and said that praying wouldn't put gas in his car or food on his table!


It's fine to allow him to voice his frustration and fears, but I'm glad you didn't take his bait and offer to buy gas etc. This is almost perfect "Carrot and Stick" in that he sees that he can make love and even go to lunch with you...but has to live in his SUV and have no money with OW. Just to get the hang of it, this might have been a great opportunity to say: "You know, you would not have to live in your SUV or have an empty gas tank if you would (insert... "make the choice to work on the issues in our marriage and come home" or whatever your come home requirements are.. here). This would plant the seed in his mind that you'd still work with him and he does still have an option...but it's not back to the way it used to be and he'll have to do some work. 



> Well we ended up going to lunch(I paid) the kids were with us and they were hungry....it was overall a pretty nice meal. I told him that I felt as if he wanted me to tell him I love him and almost beg and he told me that he wanted me to tell him for years.


AH HA! This is a very important clue, finallyseewhy. Right there he just told you one of the things that was a fairly big Love Extinguisher for him. He may be a "rescuer" kind of guy and you are a fully-capable, adult woman...but some part of him wants to know and HEAR OUT LOUD that you love him, want him, choose him...choose to be with him. Okay I realize this is me reading into his words, but I am also a person whom LOVES what I call admiration. I love to hear over and over that I make someone happy, did a good job, look good, smell good, etc. etc. etc. My literal guess is that you could build his love fire and quickly by finding ways to say positive, encouraging, uplifting, building things about him, his looks, his job, everything. I'll bet you money the OW did and that's how he fell for her (even if she didn't fall for him).



> Well tomorrow he gets paid and will have to pay child support/day care and I know he is going to bring up money. I told him today I felt as if he was manipulating me and saying things that he knows would get to me.....saying he had no food/was going to have to live in his car. He said he wasn't...that he wasn't that good at doing it
> 
> Its sort of strange because I am feeling better, stronger, and almost clearer. I love him and miss being a family unit. I feel like I am at a crucial turning point and don't know what to do. Part of me thinks I need to give an ultimatum and then part of me feels like I need to just wade out the storm.


I agree, I think you're at a turning point too but the turning point is that HE is starting to figure out the affair isn't all it was cracked up to be in his head, and life with you isn't as bad as he had in his head either! So I'd suggest two things:

1) Begin to think now of what you would need in order for him to return home. I would think: a) End Contact with the OW and never, ever speak to her again; b) Access to all of his online accounts, cell phone, email, facebook etc. to verify he's being honest; c) individual counseling and marriage counseling. Personally I would suggest that he work on some of his own issues (like admitting the things he did to harm the marriage) and show some progress before coming home, but that's because disloyals can often (not always) promise that they'll go to counseling or do the work...get home...and then not do anything or make excuses. So I recommend seeing some progress FIRST. Trust = Actions and Words that match so let him act in a way that earns your trust.

2) Be patient and continue to focus on your own work and your own issues. Work on ending the Love Extinguishers that damaged the marriage. Work on identifying his Love Kindlers and plan how to do them in a way that he likes. You go to counseling and/or a support group and be the loving, happy, capable, smart, funny woman you are. Wait out the storm just a bit more and let him be the one to realize he needs to choose to come home...but that he does have that option and you would work with him to build something better. You won't accept the way it was before--he has to either participate and make it better than it was, or you are perfectly capable of living on your own without him. Okay? Wait. 



> I wanted to add that the women he had an OW with they work together so having no contact is not possible. I did comfort her and truly believe it was just co-worker/friendship for her....she did NOT know he was lying to me about meeting her/texting. I will say I can tell he was just wanting for something to open up. He got very wound up in all of it


Okay, I understand (as in comprehend) what you're saying but I say poppyc*ck.  In order to end the affair, he can not continue to spend 8+ hours a day with his addiction. This is the rough equivalent of an alcoholic going to 30-day treatment then saying, "I'm going to work at a bar and just resist it." NOT GONNA HAPPEN! So finallyseewhy, she may not have been into it, but *HE WAS* to the point of leaving his wife and family behind!! For the good of your marriage he either has to end all contact with her, or divorce. Which do you pick? Would you rather continue the periodic work contact and be a single mom? Or would you rather think of a way to creatively survive no contact? 

I would suggest a few options. Sometimes no contact does mean leaving a job...but not always. Can he be transferred to another location? Work another shift? Can she move to another department in the company? Can he? My point is that saying "Well...100% no contact is impossible" is a way for the disloyal to continue the thrill of the affair-zing even if it is driven way, down deep...and it is kind of a cop out. There are ways to get them apart, and if it's a small company with no way to work apart...well then that's part of the cost of choosing to NOT devote all of his affection and loyalty to the one with whom he has a covenant! Seriously--if he was fired you two would survive it somehow right? It wouldn't be easy but you would come through it together. Worst case scenario you can survive this too! But don't agree to "some contact" or "minimum contact"--it will ... I'm telling you even if it's one-sided, it WILL prolong the affair and your hubby will stay in the fog as long as the affair continues. 



> Well I just looked at the account and he is not going to make it this week on what he has. I feel bad because he has a really great job but with child support/daycare/expensive extended stay hotel it just is too much. With that said this is a situation he put himself into
> 
> If Affaircare or anyone is around I would love some feedback. I am seriously scared and almost want to turn off my phone because I imagine today is not going to be fun. I really can't because he is coming over today to get the kids so I HAVE to talk to him.


I would suggest texting or calling him and saying, "Today is your day to pick up the kids, so I will expect you at the usual time: XXX o'clock. I'll have them ready for you." Then turn your phone off, have them ready, sort of send them out and you follow in a little bit to say goodbye, and go back in the house. If he tries to hook you into a money-talk, just say, "Oh I'm sorry I can't talk now. Have a good night with the kids! Bye!" and walk into the house.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare THANK YOU!!!!

You pretty much hit everything on the head! I fully understand why he went to the OW she gave him something he wasn't getting at home....feeling like a man and feeling important! 

Today he called and told me he was pretty much screwed with money and started to go off/vent about everything. He started to say that he didn't think I had changed/loved him because I was being so 'hardlined' about the money issue for child support/day care. I told him I had to and told him to take himself outside of his bubble and look in from the outside and if he would tell anyone else to NOT be hard about it. I told him he needed to accept his responsibility and that he self sabotaged himself. 

Like you said he wanted to hear that I loved him and wanted him back. He mentioned that I never said I loved him/wanted him back....and I said I have about 100's and he said that he just didn't hear it for so long. You are VERY right about him wanting to be saved. He has always been that type of person I don't want to call him 'needy' but in many ways he is. He needs to be self assured a lot and made to feel he is important. 

He mentioned coming home and that I just might get my way. I told him he needed to want to come home and that I wanted him too but not to the way it was. 

The OW is a deal breaker for me and I have to have it be. He works for a big company and he could transfer it would be awhile and maybe even a long process but it COULD happen. He is a manager so it might be a little more difficult. She is also a manager and they work closely together several days a week. There was a moment in anger I seriously considered calling HR. Fraternizing is really frowned upon in his company. The probably I had is that they would talk to them but both of them would deny but it would shed light on the issue. He would be very upset and she would be probably even more so. Also I really think the company cares about 'friendship' 'AF'. 

He mentioned just paying me more and not paying daycare so I could stay at home. I love this idea BUT I think by doing this to him will just let him continue down the path he is going. I think I have to let the '**** hit the fan' and reality start to sink in. 

I am love him but I deserve to have his best and all of him as he does from me. I am willing to give him this but if he is not to me then I can't go back to the way it was.


----------



## lostinlove1 (May 10, 2010)

finallyseewhy, i am so happy that you have come to place you are coping with it all. I believe some men always want what they can't have, right now you are showing he can't have you - even though maybe in a heartbeat if he had said he loved and wanted it to work you just might consider him back. You have found your strength and power, keep that no matter what, only you know what it is that will make you happy, good on you stay faithful to your heart, cover it, mend it and never lose sight of the facts - he left you for another woman - pathetic.......... proud of you!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

lostinlove thank you so much I am trying.....so hard right now. 

Today was a EXTREMELY emotional day and I don't know if that is a good thing or not  I will be back later to post about it.


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Hey girl,

You are not in this alone. Only those of us who have lived/are living this nightmare get the pain, as well as the highs and lows of the rollercoaster ride. Even when you feel all by yourself and overwhelmed, we are all in this together. As I saw on another thread, show him that you can live without him, but would like to live with him. Best thing for both of you!!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well yesterday was probably the most raw and emotional day I(we) had since separating(today is actually a month). The night before he came over to drop off the kids and he went to hug me and we just held each other outside for about 20-30 minutes. He asked why we didn't do this more often when we were together  He said our oldest asked him to come home again and then asked me if I wanted him too and I just held him I didn't know exactly what to say and to be honest I just wanted to hear what HE had to say....I have been the one talking mostly in all of this 

Well the next day he was planning on getting the kids. I texted him I wanted to talk to him he dropped them off at daycare. Well when he came over he started to kiss me and stuff and ask what I wanted to talk about(it was pretty much stuff about the kids but I will say a selfish part of me just wanted to talk to him) Well he asked if I wanted him to come back after he dropped them off....to well 'be together' and I told him yes. 

Well on his way back he called me and asked if I still wanted him to come over and I told him that if he wanted to he could. He then said he wanted to but was also tired and frustrated. I said I was frustrated too. Well then he said,'I'm frustrated because I want to **** and then leave and about money and you are frustrated because you want to be back together.I told him he didn't know why I was frustrated and that I would rather him just not come other I needed to finish a few things up. Well he came over and I told him I wanted him to leave and he didn't. Well we ended up spending the afternoon together.

Well as we were laying in bed talking he got a really strange look on his face and I asked him what was wrong. I then told him I could tell he was stressed (in the last month his hair started to almost rapidly reseed and gray...it was already starting but it got kicked into overdrive) Well he almost gasp for air and looked like he was going to cry and said he didn't know what he was going to do. That 2/3 of his check went to me and the kids and he didn't know how he was going to survive. I asked him what he expected or thought it was going to be like and he said he didn't know. 

Well then he started to storm out and say he wasn't mad at me but frustrated with the situation and didn't want to talk to me about it. Well I told him to stop and not to leave like this! I asked him what he wanted me to do about it what could I do I was just as screwed as he was! :scratchhead: 

Well he came back into the room and started to go on about how he was struggling and I SNAPPED I told him to STOP acting like a marder(pretty sure I am spelling that wrong). That we were all hurting and the only real victims in all of this was our children who are know suffering because their parents were to selfish to really put what was needed in their marriage. 

I started to cry and I didn't blame him for things but did put the blame on us together. I think I went off for about 20-30 minutes. He just came over and sat on the bed and stared at me. He didn't say a word and honestly I didn't want him to. 

Well he left and brought the kids back and he usually just drops them off and tells me what happens and then leaves. Well he walks in and says he wants to sit down for a few minutes. Well he sits on the couch and just talks. Nothing in particular just chit chat. :scratchhead: He stayed for about 10-15 minutes. 



I have come to the conclusion that he is doing 1 of 3 things from what he is doing and also by his spending(I still have access to the account and can see it online). He was already in a bad situation but he has eaten out and taken the kids out almost spending every last penny he had left. Oh and here is the kicker....he only paid for 2 nights of his hotel and as of right now when he pays the rest he will have maybe $10-15 left of the week and no food. 

*1)He is self sabotaging himself to the point he will have to come home. 
2)Is expecting me to bail him out
3)Is planning on coming home but is trying to figure out if he still can*

I don't know what to think at this point but I do know that today a month later after him leaving I feel stronger then I have I think ever. I do feel beaten and broken but strong.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey did you see Tanelorn's post over on cmf's thread? I'm going to tell you about the same thing he told her. 

We are not psychics so we can not tell "WHY" your disloyal is doing/saying the things he's doing/saying. On the one hand, the fog may be thinning and some light may be shining through and he *just may be* beginning to see that this was foolish! On the other hand, it may all be a ruse to see if he can guilt you into money--we can't be sure. Here's what we CAN tell though: just like we told you, the A is about 99% fantasy and he is beginning to see that reality SUX and is not at all what he THOUGHT it would be like. 

I would suggest a couple things for you specifically. As always the requirements for "coming home" don't change: 

1) He has to write a No Contact letter to the OW and give it to you--you send it. 

2) He has to agree to never, ever contact the OW again ever. In your instance, since they work together I'd say a good step on this road would be putting in the request for transfer. If it bites and is hard on him...well that's part of the price he has to pay for committing adultery at work huh?

3) He has to agree to give you access to *ALL* of his email addresses, accounts, facebook, cell phone, chat IMs, forums...everything. I personally deleted all mine except one personal one to which my Dear Hubby has the password and can see it any day. The idea is that you are free to check up on him and verify his honesty--and yep he lost the right to "secrecy" by lying to you about the A and hiding it all. 

4) He should agree to both individual counseling and marital counseling, and if it were me, I'd recommend that you want to see him willingly go and work on himself for a while before you let him come home. 

Now, this is just my word to you--there are two things he is not very likely to do so don't make a big deal about getting these things. He will probably NOT grovel and beg for forgiveness--he may not even admit it was "wrong" etc. for a while. This is because in his mind, he was hurting for a long time (when he was vulnerable to the A) and you weren't willing to change so he may have resentment. AND... he will probably not act all loving and happy to be back. This is partly because he's going through withdrawal from not having the "love-zing" and he'll be bummed over losing that. So don't expect those things and you'll be going into it with your eyes open! 

So figure out what you would need in order to have him come back; let him know you are willing to have him come home; and actually have him DO those things for a while first. (Disloyals are notorious for "promising" to go to counseling and then "forgetting" or "I'm trying but it's not working"...so see the changes first and then reconcile.)


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I'm glad you posted this affaircare- I was a bit pissed he did not even apologize or ask for forgiveness( but I did not show that I was upset). I think he is still weighing his options. I was a bit surprised he actually used the words-you are the person I fell in love with again. I really haven't been doing plan A for all that long- I guess I am a bit paranoid . We'll see what happens, we meet with the lawyers again this week.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Hey did you see Tanelorn's post over on cmf's thread? I'm going to tell you about the same thing he told her.
> 
> *I am headed over there right now *
> 
> ...


_*I am going to have to see actions before he comes back I just have to. I can't play the victim in all of this but I also can't make myself one by letting him come back without changing. I am willing to to give him 100% of myself and I expect nothing less from him. I am willing to truly work on us but if he is not then it will get no where. I tried that before he left where I was trying so hard and he wasn't and I know it doesn't work.*_


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well it is over....I am done. 

Today he had our oldest child and he was going to spend the night but instead he decided he was going to go out with the other women. The one that all of this started with that he lied about going out with several times and once with our child. That the texting all happen and everything else with the EA. 

I knew something was up when he said he couldn't spend the night and he wouldn't tell me so I kept asking and he told me it was none of my business that he just wanted to go out. When I pressed he said he only knew of one of the people going out and finally said it was her. That he didn't want to sit in his hotel room and just dwell about having no money and wanted to have fun. He then said he was getting the short end of the stick and that now I probably wont work with him about anything(he was meaning the $$$) I told him that if he had $$ to go out he should of had money to pay for stuff and he said she was paying for everything tonight and the he only had $16 which is true.....I checked. 

I am just done I will not continue this game with him. I will not let him destroy me anymore. I am done talking about money and everything with him he has made his choice it is very clear. Today is a month since he left when I found him texting her in the morning after he went on a date with her and our child. OPPS I mean with his friend it wasn't a date.....

From now on when he brings in the kids I am going to be conveniently in the other room. I am going to do everything via text with him because honestly I am not going to put myself in this situation with him again. 

I will not let this break me I am going to get stronger and be happy I guess that means moving on. I will no longer waste anymore tears on someone that sheds none for me. I hope for his sake this friendship was worth it. I wish them many years of happiness.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

He has been all over the place this week. She will quickly get sick of paying for everything . He might be saying all this to get you to give him money by making you jealous. He sounds like he is self destucting


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

He is self destructing and honestly it is very very sad this is not like him if anything it is the EXACT opposite of who he is. I know for a fact he is going out with her tonight and she is buying and good for her...I hope she shows him a great time. She is older then him and has children that he could _barely_ be old enough to father they are older teens. 

Jealous does not work on me and if that is the angle he is taking it it is/will fail I will not compete. I am a grown up and will not play games like this. It is cruel. 

He has less then $20 to his name and honestly I don't know how he is going to make it and like he said tonight it is 'none of my business' I know he has no food and like I said in my previous post I think he is self sabotaging himself and is digging himself a very deep hole. He had the NERVE to tell me tonight on the phone that he had the short end of the stick financially. I will not give him a red cent AT ALL. 

I will no longer shed tears for someone that will not shed them for me.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Permission to speak freely, finally. This is me talking to you woman to woman and not like an infidelity coach okay? 

In my first marriage my exH did pretty much what yours is doing and it was the hardest thing EVER to watch him go from a successful million dollar business, a 4000 sqft. home with a pool, a wife who loved and cared very much, and two children who OF COURSE loved him (he's their dad)...to live in hotel room with nothing, lose our business, almost put our home into foreclosure, DUMP his own children and treat them like dirt (*THEM*! Innocent children), and act heartless and abusive toward me. And for what? A woman with four children by four different men who dumped him one month after I finally told him I was done. 

He lost EVERYTHING we worked for more than a decade to gain, for a woman whom everyone (but him) could see was using him and didn't have the morals to commit. I tried for a couple years to do Plan A and Plan B and anything I could think of and he just would not end it. Years later (and I mean like 5 years), he did finally admit to me that he behaved poorly, but still by then it mainly left my heart cold. 

So yeah--it's hard. It is REALLY hard because you care about him! Yet he's the one choosing it and wow--how sad. I would suggest that the bootie calls be a thing of the past until he's demonstrated he's there out of love and caring for you and not "cuz he's horny" and the OW doesn't sleep with him yet. 

MAN, I am so ... disappointed. I'm sure you're crushed. I'm so sorry, finallyseewhy. I'm very sad to say that he's still heavily involved in his affair, and if anything, is thinking only of himself and how to get more money. (HUG) Seriously, I'm so sorry.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare thank you I honestly mean that!

It is funny because tonight I knew something was up him NOT letting our child stay is NOT like him. I in my gut knew something was up and in all of this mess it is the only thing I have been able to trust. Even on the phone he tired to paint me as a 'bad person' for asking him who he was going with. 

I didn't cry after I got off the phone....not a single tear. I kept telling myself I was going to be strong and I was going to get stronger and I was GOING TO BE OK. 

He is sabotaging himself and I will not let him take me down with him. I can't and wont. I will not let my children be brought down on his burning ship. 

Am I disappointed yes, absolutely! I was willing to fight so hard for his man and family but I just can't fight for someone that isn't willing to fight or even just let ME fight. 

There will be no more sex at all and I will bring it too a very harsh and real reason why. Up until this point I was sure he was not having sex with anyone else now I am not sure. I will NOT put myself at risk for a few minutes of 'fun'. I don't know what is doing with this OW and I am not going to risk myself because of it. I would be very surprised if he doesn't have sex with her tonight or at least try. 

There was a blur of a moment after I got off the phone with him I considered calling her(I have her number) and even thought about calling his HR department on Monday where they both work. But you know what I am not going to let him bring the ugliness out in me. I am not going to give him a reason to blame or hate me. I will not give him the power over me. I am going to be happy....I wanted to be happy with him and he didn't want that so I need to look forward. I will be OK and I know this. 

He is in his own fantasy world right now and I really don't know if I can bring him out of it. Things are going to be really rough on him the next few days for him money wise and I have decided tomorrow when he picks up the kids....if he still plans on it and flat out asking what his plans our next week days/times for the kids so everyday isn't a limbo. Then I am letting his calls go to voice mail. Until he comes out of this fog which I am imagining will be sometimes I will no longer chit-chat, have sex, or listen to him 'vent' about daily life/money.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I forgot to add something to my message above last night. You know what the really messed up thing in all of this is. He is went out with her more then he has brought me out in the last few years. Last night I am pretty sure they went dancing and he never has brought me dancing! It makes me sick probably what he did last night, but you know what I guess I should thank him. Because like he said last night about dwelling well I am not going to be doing that anymore either.


I have a question today when he comes over to get the boys I was planning on really not saying anything about anything. Should I flat out ask him when he is going to be picking them up next week so he doesn't have to call every single day or is this going to be seen as me being pissed off and trying to punish him? The last month he tells me 'I don't know I will call you' which pretty much puts me in limbo everyday.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I would suggest using W-T-F-S for this as well: 

*When you* "just call me" when and/or if you feel like spending time with the children, 

*I think* it is very inconvenient and puts me on hold all day waiting for you,

*I feel* disrespected and "at your beck and call" as if my time is not just as valuable as yours,

*Sooo...* I am going to request a set schedule for your time with the children. I'm no longer willing to just "be available" when you feel like it, so if you can not set a schedule, I may or may not be available to take the call or have them ready for you. You'd have to take the chance because I'm not sitting around waiting for your call anymore. [Make up this part to something that is completely convenient for you:] I would request that you have a visit on (Wednesday) night and Saturday night. That way we each have one weekend night free and you get to see them one night a week.

Now between you and me and the fencepost this request sends several messages: 

1) It will make the affair less convenient if he can't go out with OW "because he has his kids." Thus, it would help bring some reality to his affair.

2) Even if he is a selfish and poor father, he has responsibilities to the children, and again YOU have had to completely rearrange your life to have them and provide coverage--it is utterly reasonable for HIM to also be a parent and bring yet MORE reality to his affair (aka--he will have times he is REQUIRED to be a parent)!

3) If he is making the choice of the OW over you and the kids, then you are no longer willing to be at his beck and call. He can see IF IT WORKS FOR YOU not the other way around. 

At this point I'm not sure he sees the real you at all other than as someone who could do this or that "for him."


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare a big thank you again!!! 

Today when he picked up the kids I texted him that I asked him what was his next day off and he told me Wednesday so I texted him back that I needed him to have them the next few Saturdays. He asked why? I texted back the kids needed lunch(to diverte away from why he asked why.....a big part of me wanted to say, 'none of your business like he told me BUT I didn't) then I texted him, 'OK, just plan on having them Saturdays & Wednesdays as your days next week' 

You are very right with what you told me above I have felt as if I was at his 'beckon call' He is a good dad so I figured it was the best thing to do was to give him unlimited access to the house when ever he wanted. Unfortunately what it has done is pretty much put my life on HOLD until after 12-1 everyday until I hear from him.

I picked Saturday because he is usually off. It will put some strain on things because he has some stuff he usually does every week with a couple of friends(our oldest usually goes other then the time the OW went and wasn't allowed) & I am pretty sure the OW is off Saturdays so I guess he wont be able to go out with her then either. 

Part of me thought it wasn't good to pick Saturday because I didn't want him to see me as 'punishing' him but it is the day that he can have the kids. Also I NEED to get out and today something that happens Saturday nights that I had begged him to do with me but never did so I am going to go do it! There is no need to sit in the house waiting for paint to dry. 

A couple of my friends wanted me to go out to a bar/club but honestly I am not to this point. Also I have no interest in hooking up or dating anyone else. I am taking this time to work on myself so I can be a stronger mother and person.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> Today when he picked up the kids I texted him that I asked him what was his next day off and he told me Wednesday so I texted him back that I needed him to have them the next few Saturdays. He asked why? I texted back the kids needed lunch(to diverte away from why he asked why.....a big part of me wanted to say, 'none of your business like he told me BUT I didn't) then I texted him, 'OK, just plan on having them Saturdays & Wednesdays as your days next week'


Quick note, finallyseewhy--this is a note to point out something to you so you can grow as a person okay? You just did to him what he does to you and it drives you nuts. You didn't "respectfully request" that he have the kids Wednesday and Saturday...you TOLD HIM he would have them on those days. 

I would like to point out the subtle difference between the two approaches. 

When you W-T-F-S, you don't try to control them or tell them what to do or when to do it. You identify when something is not okay WITH YOU; you tell them both your thoughts and your feelings (so it's not blaming them, you are keeping it on you); and then you make a request that recognizes they are a valid human too and to which they are free to voluntarily say "yes" or "no" or "that won't work but this will..." This way you respect them and they respect you back--and mutual agreement is reached by both parties. 

When you TELL HIM (or he tells you), you are trying to control him (or he, you) and tell him what to do or when to do it--or he's trying to tell you what to do or when to do it. Neither one is acceptable. Also you have not communicated what you think or feel, so he may or may not have any idea that you think "waiting until he calls" is inconvenient or that you feel disrespected and like your time isn't valuable. Finally by "telling" you do not treat the other person as if they are an equal partner and you don't give them the chance to say "yes" or "no" or offer an option that would work for them. There is not mutual agreement between equal parties--one is trying to have Power Over the other. 

At this point if he's willing to take them Wednesdays and Saturdays, I would say it's not really worth doing it over or anything, except that you have not said out loud your thoughts and feelings so he'll never know...and yes I love the guys, but no they usually don't get hints or "he should just know." Nope that's part of the old power struggle way of doing things that got your marriage into trouble! So just tuck this away and next time, really try to remember it. In other words, live and learn for a new day. 



> Part of me thought it wasn't good to pick Saturday because I didn't want him to see me as 'punishing' him but it is the day that he can have the kids. Also I NEED to get out and ... I am going to go do it! There is no need to sit in the house waiting for paint to dry.
> 
> A couple of my friends wanted me to go out to a bar/club but honestly I am not to this point. Also I have no interest in hooking up or dating anyone else. I am taking this time to work on myself so I can be a stronger mother and person.


One important reason why he needs to have the children on a somewhat set schedule is that you are an adult just as much as he is and you have a life and things to do and places to go and people to see just as much as he does. If this were to become a divorce, he can not depend on you to be the "live in sitter" while he does as he pleases, and just as you have arranged your schedule to adapt to the children, he can too--it is part of being a parent. 

However, most importantly is that you do need some time to yourself and for yourself. When you don't have the children that would be an EXCELLENT time to go to your own personal counseling (if you think you need it), go to the bookstore and enjoy that latte and get a book just for you, go to a class or seminar (like...yoga or Tai Chi), or go to a support group so you can meet other women who are in your shoes and make some lady friends! I agree with you--this is NOT (let me repeat: *NOT*) the time for going to bars and picking up some new man!  However, I know in some small towns the local bar is not a meat market but rather "the town social spot" and a place where people go, hang out, and talk--some drink a beer and some drink a coke and no one cares! If that's your bar...that's sort of different. But if your bar is the meat market--no, that's not the kind of person or man you want in your life anyway. You want a man who is kind, loving, gentle, thoughtful, committed and moral...right? 

I hope some day that may describe your husband!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Your very right and part of me was trying to control him by telling him what days. I was just thinking about that and I was trying to control him  That was one of his biggest complaints when we were together too and I have done pretty good at not doing it lately but I guess I started to slip back into it.....I guess it is good I at least could see I was doing it right?

I need to get out and be an adult and just have time away to myself something I honestly haven't really done in years. I have embraced being a mom and I hate to say it but it has also sort of killed part of me. I need to learn to function outside the realm of 'mommy' The idea of going to a book store and just reading a book and drinking a latte brings a big smile to my face! I think I am going to have to do that. In the next few weeks I am going to be looking for a support group for women. I found one on meetup and I am going to inquire about it. 

I live in a major metropolis so bars/clubs are well  usually hook up places. The mere idea of going out and looking for someone else makes me sort of sick to my stomach. If in the end my marriage does not work. I spent 11 years in it and I figure I will need to spend some time(if not years) getting myself strong and healthy. I would not want to bring this baggage into another relationship/marriage. I don't want to have to do this again! 

_____________________

Tonight when he dropped off the boys he had a mental break down and sort of cornered me so I couldn't walk away(the kids were there) He has no gas and a $1 to his name and he pretty much was asking me to give him some gas money! It is so had to see a person do this to himself I told him I felt as if he was self sabotaging himself and needed to get some help. This is NOT an man who doesn't have a good/great job. This is so out of the normal for him it is scary. He tried to tell me that I didn't care about him and he was giving me 2/3 of this check I just calmly responded, 'what did you think it was going to be like when you left your family? Did you think it was going to be different?' He was crying and honestly freaking out but I remained calm and didn't give him any money. 

I don't know how he is going to make it to work back and forth he wont be able to. Is it really any concern of mine? Should I of given him a few dollars?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I am having so much guilt right now for not giving him a few dollars I need to just stop and realize it is NOT my job anymore to bail him out. I shouldn't of let myself see him cry. I even started to call him and stopped. I need to realize him crying and telling me I don't care about him or that I he thought was his friend is just him trying to get under my skin.....it is working  I just need to stop thinking about it and go to sleep.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Just a note of support, finallyseewhy: I know it felt awful but you are doing the right thing. If you two WERE to divorce, the judge would order him to pay child support -AND- contribute to the child care and their health insurance and expenses! So even though he has mismanaged his part, that is not your concern. He could have chosen to see the light and come home, but he went out DANCING WITH THE OW just last night. 

When he's whining about having $1 and needing gas money, ask him to ask the OW for cash. That would sure bring a "wake up call" of reality to that affair huh? Exactly how attractive is he going to look to miss whatzername when he has $1?  Well that's the Love Extinguisher you've had to put up with for YEARS! LOL So don't let him get ya down. You're doing the right thing and for the right reasons. It is HIS choice to be gone and not share finances with you and he can come home ANY DAY HE CHOOSES to work with you on the marriage. Only trick is, now you won't take the crumbs he used to give you before. 

You're smarter than that now.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare he is paying all of those expenses right now and that is one thing I started from the DAY he walked out the door I actually made him sign a custody agreement outlining all of it. He also knows that it is not an option to not pay it BUT I think he really thought I would 'help him out' all the time. 

Its sort of funny because when he was crying and I asked him how he got out last night and he said that the OW put some gas in the car to get there. I then calmly asked why he didn't ask her to fill up his tank. He snapped and said that it would of been $60!! and that she wasn't going to pay him to go out with her(I sort of snickered inside) I then asked him that maybe he should ask for for some money if they are friends and all. That if he really was that short on gas he shouldn't of been running all around town. 

Affaircare I am not willing to take crumbs or be a doormat. I will not ever again give myself to someone without them giving 100% of themselves to me 

______

You know when he was crying in the back of my head to not start crying myself I thought about him grinding on this woman at a club and you know what....it worked it calmed me down and made me realize his priorities are messed up right now and I need to keep mine straight! I poured my heart out to him the day before and I thought we were having a break through and instead he decided to take 2 steps forward and 5 back.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm just going to say that I realize it's hard, but you are right on track. I would suggest doing one nice thing for Finallyseewhy today--like maybe that latte....


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well today there was a lot of crying and screaming and not on my part. H pretty much texted me and also called and went off about how I don't love him or ever cared....this was because I wouldn't give him any money. He went on to call me a ***** and lazy and how he supported me through out this whole marriage and left him desuetude. That he could not survive and was in 'primal' mode worrying about where his next meal or gas would come from and that I told him I would never let him go hungry(he said this to DIRECTLY hurt me). It is true he has $1.96 in his account and no gas. 

Well when he was going off I snapped and said that I would give him all the love and support if he was willing to come home and work on his family and go to therapy. He told me I was being selfish and holding his family over his head. I just repeated the same thing over. After him saying the same thing to him and he calling me selfish I asked him HOW it was selfish for me to fight for this family!!

He then came over to get the kids to bring them to practice I told I would give him gas money to bring our oldest....he wasn't going to be able to go if not. Well he came in and started yelling and screaming and even threw a toy across the room! Then he came over and tried to HUG ME & when I didn't hug him back he told me that this was what was wrong that I push him away. 

After he left I got a text telling me that I was right and that he felt like he was self destructing and he didn't know if I could help. I told him to get into therapy and that I could help and he told me that being gone he couldn't afford therapy. He went on for many text asking me how I would change it and how I had hurt him and that he was scared. 

I am honestly at a loss right now on what to do. I pretty much gave him an ultimatum....family or be alone.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I probably should add that he keeps complaining about the child support/day care cost he is paying 2/3 of his check. We started daycare last week because I wanted to ease the kids into it(they never have been in) and he keeps saying over and over the he CANT afford to pay it. He even went as far to offer me an extra $100 a week to continue being a SAHM. I sort of wanted to do this BUT wouldn't this just keep him in the fantasy world he is in right now?


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Remember, YOU are the "sane" one right now. *Do not* give in to the temper tantrums and turn off the phone if he gets into a texting marathon. Anything said after the first couple of texts is pointless. He is manipulating you either intentionally or unintentionally. Either way, for you, him AND your marriage, limit the length of the dramatic conversations. He is totally irrational right now and may be for some time.

My H moved out in September '09, started an affair in February. After too much drama on both our parts, the affair is over (I think) and for the first time I think there might be a chance at reconciliation. Sitting still and limiting contact is SO HARD, but absolutely necessary when they behave like their evil twin. I have learned to stay calm and somewhat upbeat no matter what, and over the course of time have learned to let him know I can live without him (not the case at first.) He will respect you more and you will respect yourself. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, no more sex for awhile. No way, no how. How dare he think he can use you that way. I'm sure there is a good man in that body, but for now show him you will not tolerate the evil twin.

He will find a way to get the money to live. Unless you feel the arrangement in unfair, do not give him more. Let him suffer the consequences of his immature behavior. If you feel it is unfair, renegotiate when he is calm and not demanding it. 

Just my opinion.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

There will be no sex what so ever and to be honest I don't think I could give myself to him right now. How he has treated me the last few days and what he has said/done has made me not want to do that what so ever!

He sort of had me over a barrel tonight with our child because he HAD to go somewhere and I had no way of bring him  so that is why I gave him a couple of dollars for gas for our child and that was it. 

I do believe there is a good man under there but he is doing everything possible to cover that up....what a shame


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

When you wrote that he came over and had sex with you again and then brought up money again--like before--it was clear that he is totally trying to manipulate you. What a scummy thing of him to do. It doesn't matter how hard it is--he chose it. He must support his family. And don't sell out for $100/month to remain a SAHM. Let the courts decide when you need to go back to work--if your kids aren't in school and they were home with you, then that should be continued as long as possible-for THEIR sake, not yours. Geez, what is he thinking! OK, I know he is not. Anyway, do not go back to work yet if that is not what you were planning when the kids were still this young. Go back to school if it will help you when you finally go back for a job, but be a SAHM and he will have to support you until the kids are in school, or at least for a few years so you can get your skills upgraded. Do not let him rush you into working at a job that is low paying; school, then work. You agreed to be a SAHM and have made sacrifices b/c of that, and you will be poor your whole life if you let him rush you back to work now. 

What a performance he is putting on. He wants to eat his cake and have it, too. Do not wait for him to realize what an ass he is/has been. Move on. If he "gets it" at a point where you are still willing to listen to him, fine. If not, so be it. Hell, you could be divorced several years and happily remarried before he "gets it." It is not your responsibility to put YOUR life on hold while he figures out his. Not part of the agreement! Good luck!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Sisters you are very right but I didn't have sex with him TODAY....did I write that?? We have several times this month but not today. 

I am not going to take the money to be a SAHM a extra $100 a week in child support is just not enough. I mean it is not like he has a bad job by any means and if I remain a SAHM while he is trying to 'find' himself I will literally be putting my life on hold. I would barely be getting by. I am almost done with school and the field I am going into has great earning potential I would be a fool to not finish and remain at home.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I forgot to add that when we were talking I brought up the OW/friend and he told me there was no reason to bring anyone else into this. It was my fault for pushing him away.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh finallyseewhy, this is so easy. Here is a link to a quick child support calculator for all 50 states in the USA: Child Support Calculators

These are not "rock solid" up-to-date, perfectly current calculators but you plug in your income and his income and child care costs and WHAMMO! You can see for yourself what the courts would likely order if it were to become a divorce. In the state of Oregon, for example, if he makes $52,000 per year and pays $100/week/child for two kids, that would be monthly child support estimated of $1725 each month and that doesn't begin to touch a court-ordered bill (or mortgage payment) or alimony or anything! For even more accuracy, just Google search for "Child Support Calculator (Your State)." My point here is that it's not you being a meanie--this is reality. When you leave your wife and children for the wistress, you do not get to keep all your money! Furthermore, it's not you being unrealistic. Regular, normal legislators in your local society determined the child support for your state, so his representatives voted to say that this formula seemed reasonable to them. 

This is mildly easy. When he goes into a text message massacre--turn your phone off and leave it off for an hour or two. If he does it on the phone, talk over the top of him, calmly, and say "I'm very sorry your choices have put you in this spot, but contact me when you are ready to devote all of your affection and loyalty to only me. I'm going to hang up now. Bye!" then CLICK. Don't let him hook you in or say more, just hang up. Again, if needed, turn off the phone. 

If it is at home...I would try to get past him so you're not trapped, ask him to leave, stay on task and keep saying, "I am not willing to discuss that now please leave. I am not willing to discuss that. If you are going to continue I need you to leave. I will not talk about this, so go to your home now. Allow me to move and don't trap me--I'm asking you to leave and you are forcing me here against my will." It is NOT COOL for him to trap you like that and it is intimidation. So keep repeating that you won't talk and you want him to leave until he does. If he keeps doing that, have your brother or a big burly neighbor as a witness at all exchanges or times you are with him (he's less likely to try to "trap you" in front of someone else).


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare that is the EXACT calculator we used. That is the EXACT one that said he would not only have to pay child support but also daycare ect. I honestly think that he is living in a fantasy world when it comes to what he was going to have to pay. He thinks I am being unreasonable because I am not willing to work with him and let him pay less.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare do you think it was 'wrong' for me to pretty much tell he had to choose what he wanted? Be alone/stand on his own or come back and work on his family?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well this morning was horrible pretty much H told me that he is going to drop the child support by $50 a week so he can live. It was a huge argument and it was really bad. I went off and lost my cool and he did too. He even called me a ***** in front of our kids(in the car). I don't know what I am going to do at this point it looks like I am going to have to tell my family what is going on because I am going to need their help  I told him that I could go back home and then he wouldn't have to pay day care and he even paused and thought about it. I hate to take them away but I am at the point were I am going to need support and I have NONE here where I live. I am so disappointed not only in myself but everything. My children are going to suffer and really bad.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll summarize for ya finallyseewhy. Time to get a legal separation and ASAP. At any point now he'll realize he doesn't have to honor the agreement he signed at all, and you can't enforce it. He's also clearly showed he thinks more of himself than even the safety and well-being of his own children. An adult would think: "Supporting the children is NOT an option. If I can not make it on my wages, and I want personal spending money, I guess I'll have to get a second job." An adult would NOT think: "Well I'll take food out of my children's mouths so I have enough money to take the wistress out dancing." 

I know it's going to piss him off but your marriage can survive anger. It can not survive an affair!! And your children can not survive on air. Get foodstamps if you have to, and file for legal separation so that your state's child support enforcement can garnish him.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I called an attorney and I am going to see him tomorrow I am just in disbelief right now I can't even pin point the emotions I am feeling right now. I am going to have to tell my family because I have no way of putting the money for an attorney myself and he knows this. The attorney I talked with said exactly what you have said that it doesn't matter if he is staying in an expensive place and has no money left its NOT my problem and that I need to get an emergency agreement fast. 

I can no longer think about this marriage working I have to think about my children's well being. I know the moment I contacted a lawyer or he gets the letter from him my support will STOP but I don't know what else to do. He is in a fantasy world and it is very very sad and he is only hurting his kids and will in the long run. I feel like I up a creek with no paddle right now. I haven't even told any of my family and now I have to go spill all my heart and beg for help 

He told me again today if I really loved him that I would not be doing this. That I really don't want to work on any of this and I was the one that told him too leave. That THIS is the problem he has with me that I can compromise. The attorney told me that this is black mail and I feel like it is


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

Listen to the lawyer. it is true. Our agreement only lasted 4 months before he just decided it was all about him. Please don't feel bad going to your family. I know it is hard. He will get a big dose of reality just by the fact he gets served papers, as I'm sure he thinks you are bluffing. Mine did. He will get very angry when served, just ignore him and go no contact- especially if he cuts you off. You can always try to get him to have to pay your lawyer fees and can then pay back your family. If your family is like mine, they will help you and make sure you and your kids have what you need. I know I am very lucky to have their support. It may take awhile but he will be court ordered to give you support, he can't escape it.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

So when I talked to him and asked him flat out if he was going to deposit my child support(he is sorting me $60) and he freaked out on me and asked why in the hell he would want to be with a person like me. He then texted me telling me I call and text him all the time and give him no space and am relentless. That I can not compromise and am not willing to see anything from his presepctive and that if this continues he can never work on anything. That I am not even giving him a fair chance and not to respond to him yet and to think about WHY HE WOULD EVER WANT TO BE WITH SOMEONE WHO IS TREATING HIM LIKE I THIS. 

I will not call him again or text. I don't care if my ****ing house is on fire he will hear about it when he calls. I even went as far as deleting his number from my phone(I dont know anyone's number by heart) He has made his position and there is no convincing him what to do. He is going to do what ever he wants too. I will not discuss money with him again I guess I will get what I get until it is court ordered. Next week I am just going to start doing the drop off of the kids between the daycare I never thought I would have to do this but I guess I will. When that is not possible I will just have him drop off and be conventionally in the other room. 

I don't know what else I can do at this point. He is pretty much telling me that unless am willing to lower the child support/day care he is not willing to work on this marriage. He asked me to not respond to his text till I think about it and I am thinking about it but I don't think I will be responding. I told him that if he wanted me to let him go and give him space I would. I will move on and live my life with out him. I will stop fighting for this family(and this hurts so bad to even write this) and just fight for my kids.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I have a small update with what happen tonight....

Well he came over I went out to get the kids and didn't really say anything and when I started to walk away he called me back. I figured he wanted to say good bye again to our youngest. Well he looked right at me and said, 'so you really want to move' Now some back ground on this I said when he 1st left that I could move back home and then when we wouldn't have to worry about daycare cost. Well I said, 'NOPE, I am going make it work here' He asked how and I told him I would figure it out. That I would be OK. 

I remained calm. I will say I was not all smiles and puppy dog faces but was polite and calm. He tried to do a puppy dog face on me and say he was having such a hard time and was not hardly making it with all the cost. 

Well then I did something I am very proud of myself and I have to thank Affaircare for it 

Well in her previous post she mentioned food stamps well I remembered some where that if you applied for public assistance that they automatically put in a child support order. I have some savings and am hoping I will not need to have to apply for anything like that BUT it gave me a GENIUS idea! 

He started to talk about money again and I told him I was going to have to apply for food stamps and they were going to have to do an automatic child support order. He sort of got a scared look and said, 'Oh OK' I know part of it was the idea of me having to go down and apply for anything like that but I know a even BIGGER part was he knew that I was not bluffing anymore and that they were not going to care they would just take the set amount.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

You did good! He is due for a reality check. I wish I had handled things as well as you when my husband and I first separated. It took me about 3-4 months before I was thinking clearer and not so emotional. The last 6 weeks I have learned SOOO much from this forum and have gotten great advice. I wish I hadn't wasted so much time .


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf thank you  but honestly the ONLY reason I am is because of this forum and I almost feel silly saying this but if I wouldn't of found this place I would be acting a lot different and really screwing myself. 

Don't get me wrong I am very emotional but I am forcing myself to think of things and I am being a lot more rational/clear now. Like an example today was I called him today several times in midst of the conversation this morning. So I did something sort of drastic by deleting his number so I couldn't but I wont be able to just 'call' I did start to get emotional tonight and took a mental step back before it was noticeable. I fully realize now I am dealing with someone who is very irrational right now and I have to be the one with the clear head.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I did not talk to H at all yesterday he texted me for something but then texted me 'nevermind' so I didn't respond. This morning he texted me he wanted the kids for the next 2 nights and my heart feel into my stomach I have never been away from my youngest for that long and I don't know how I am going to do it  I really really dont. I didn't text him back because he was just telling me not really asking me a question or anything. 

I guess on some levels deleting his number from the cell phone is good because I just can't call or text when ever I want it makes it a little harder. I am somewhat worried about a few things but will just write a small note and send it with our oldest. Yesterday I called the daycare about something and I asked if he had dropped off the $$$ and she told me not yet. I know he pulled it from the account and can't really understand why he wouldn't pay it? I really don't think he would do that but I guess you never know


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

I also didn't respond when he would just text me a demand. I had to clearly spell out to my H that the OW was NOT to be included in his time with the kids- he snuck her in at least twice that I know about. My kids hate her and have basically told their Dad they do not want her around when they are with him- their therapist had to tell him too before he actually "got"it. I would just remind him that if the daycare is not paid , he will need to make arrangements for the children for the week. The first time I was separated from the kids at night was awful, I won't lie. Just keep very busy and the time will fly by.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I am not looking forward to the next 2 days I am just planning on deep cleaning my whole house to try to keep busy. It is ugly outside so I probably wont get out much  

I texted him a simple message just saying the babysitter called and was wondering when the $$ would be dropped off. He texted me back Monday and I left it at that. 

I have wondered if the OW would be around the next couple of days and if she is how I would handle it. There could be a possibility of it happening tonight. If I find out she is I have thought about flat out calling her and telling her 'nicely' to stay away from my children. That her relationship with my husband has already impacted them enough. Even more so our oldest who has been told to lie to me about her. Hopefully it will not be something I have to worry about for mine, his, her's because if it is I might have to take the step of contacting their employer.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

My kids told me everytime they saw her, even though they were told not to. I would DEFINETLY tell their employer if he does not honor your request about not having her around- the OW usually tries to "bond" with the kids to impress the husband-sickening. If he wants time with the kids, then he needs to focus only on them when he has them. This is obviously a sore spot with me- the OW is a smoker and my kids hate smoke-she is also a fat pig Enough of my rant. Keep busy and try to do something just for yourself this week-end.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I know that our child will tell me if she is there and for H I hope she is not because I have made up my mind if she is there I am calling and taking action on calling their employer. He knows that will so I am hoping he is not going to be stupid but most of the stuff he has done lately IS stupid so who knows. 

My original plan was to pretty much clean and sleep through the next 2 days but I am going to get my cleaning down today and and then tomorrow I am going to do something for myself. 

He actually came over when I was in the middle of writing this and was very cold towards me. When I was asking questions about the kids he was very short he sort of snapped and told me he would call me if there was any problems. I came in and balled like a baby not because he was cold but because I realized that 1 my kids were going to be gone for almost 3 days but he is only going to be nice to me if he needs something and I need to just accept that is how he is going to be like. Maybe it will change, maybe it wont I guess I will just have to sit back and wait.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

When we first separated mine was the same- he wouldn't even come up to the house because he said he had nothing to say to me and didn't want me to drag him into a conversation. His coldness lasted for a very long time- many months. When he would call the house, if I answered he would say" I want to talk to my children". For the past several weeks, he has started asking to speak with me when he calls the kids. I saw my H for about 3 hours this morning with the kids-it went ok, he left early , nothing really said between us. He is over tonight to help with a sleep-over for our oldest child- he just left to take his dogs out. He has been pretty cold with me tonight but civil. I think maybe he doesn't want to be here, it is a lot of work with all these kids and he is now used to only taking care of his own needs 24-7. I told him he could bring the dogs over for the night( I miss them and wanted to spend time with them), but he bit my head off when I told him this. I am going to stay positive tonight and not let it get to me, but I do sense a bit of a coldness. Well, I only had a minute. Back to the kids...I'll update later. Stay strong, enjoy the quiet and try to relax. Have fun tomorrow!


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf thank you I am going to even if it kills me(which it wont  ) to stay positive and just try to think of something else Sunday or Monday. He has them till Monday so I might just take Monday morning/afternoon to myself and go to the book store and coffee shop. 

The worse thing is how hot and cold he can be. He goes from being extremely nice/friendly to pretty much ignoring me and being cold. It never last for more then a couple of days either one the last 5 weeks. I mean it is like telling me he wants to come back/loves me/and asking me to tell him that everything is going to be OK to pretty much telling me to give him space and leave him alone. 

When I gave him space and pretty much limited contact he came to me asking if everything was 'OK' and why I was being so stand offish and that I seemed happy and didn't want him. He is in a fog and I just need to realize most of what comes out of his mouth right now is dizzdribble stuff.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

FW, remember that his "nice" behavior has, recently, been 100% manipulative. He is trying to wheedle and intimidate you into doing things his way. The whole "compromise" he was suggesting sounds exactly like this "If you let me deny my kids their needs, I might think about coming back to the family." WTF!!!! If you fell for that, you would not deserve to be their mom, right? "Wait, I'm going to save the family by letting their dad DEPRIVE them of the things they need??" On what planet do those two things go together? He was really being creepy then--don't ignore that. Until he builds up a decent pattern of trustworthiness, you will have to look at everything from the "bottom line" perspective: how will his request/suggestion affect my ability to support my new single-head-of-household family?" Yes, someday you will be able to assume that responsibility--but that is a few years away! 

Stay strong, and remember that court-ordered payments go through PDQ and garnishment of his wages will be automatic--so do not wait to start the process. So what if he gets really pissed? He will continue to blame you when all you are doing is protecting your kids. This is not to punish him. This is not to make his life difficult. This is not about the OW. This is 100% completely and entirely about the kids and what is right for them. Do not let him get away with statements blaming you for his hardships--"No, I am not trying to ruin you. The courts are garnishing your wages because that is the formula they use. I have no more control over it than you do." And, just in case he isn't aware, the reason the courts use these formulas is that men (traditionally) have used threats of custody battles to get their wives to settle for less money than the wife really needs to support the kids on her time. This meant that the wife/kids became a burden on society--but they are HIS responsibility, and the courts do not let men get away with that (and yes, it could work the other way but most of the time, men didn't actually want their kids all that much b/c of their jobs, so they were simply trying to get the wife to agree to keep the kids more but for less $$). 

Remember: you have not done anything to him. The courts make the decision based on what is realistic, given the situation. That is well beyond your control. (You do not need to mention the fact that you have no reason to wish to make his life easier; that won't help the situation, even if it is true. Besides, the courts won't LET you accept less $$ unless you can prove that is all you need-weird, huh?)


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

So much for making progress ..see my thread on the infidelity board.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I woke up and realized that H has put me in a situation I am not very happy with but guess it was going to happen. We(well I) hadn't told anyone about the separation we agreed to not to tell anyone till we figured out what we were going to do. I had not told any family and he told me he was planning on not doing the same. Well I found out he started a facebook and added the OW and some of his family so I guess it is only a matter of time when they put 2 and 2 together on why his WIFE isn't on there. 

This hurts really hurts I didn't want to involve other people in this yet but now it looks like I might be forced too now.

I am seriously considering just sending him a friend request. Oh course if he denied me I would be really hurt


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

In my opinion, this has gone on long enough that you need to tell some important people for support and feedback. Your kids will eventually say something. You are hurting and your friends and family can help you through this however it turns out.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Your very right just the idea of him announcing it on freaking facebook 1st makes me sick. He promised we would do it a certain way. I am beginning to realize his promises me very little lately.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I have had no contact with him for almost 3 days and the funny thing is today I feel pretty good overall. I am going to see him tonight when he drops off the kids but that is it. This next week I know he has a pretty hectic work schedule and will be working pretty much nonstop for the next week so I imagine it will be very limited. I think deleting the number from my cell was a good thing(no easy access).

I sat down and wrote him a letter in regards of the child support/daycare. I pretty much told him that it was his responsibility and that this was the reality of the situation. That I have been a SAHM and that if he didn't pay I would have to go down to support enforcement and have them garnish his checks. That what he pays barely covers everything and if he wanted his children on welfare(which is RIDICULOUS with the amount of $$$ he makes!). It was pretty straight forward....I wasn't mean but very direct on if he didn't pay or sorted me what would happen. 

I don't know if I am going to give it too him but I will say just writing it felt great. I forgot how therapeutic writing/journaling could be.

___________

Well I ended up having to text him because someone called my mom looking for him in regards to a debt(surprise surprise) It was simple I texted him told him if they called him and he said yes and told me he was taking care of it and I said OK. I kept it simple and fast. Lets just hope this evening goes as smoothly.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Finally~

I want you to think of a way to exchange the children that does not involve having to see him face-to-face or speak to him. For example, he can park in the driveway, open his car doors, watch them come to the front door, wave and say goodbye. He doesn't need to come into the house or talk to you to exchange the children. Sooooo...that's your assignment. How can you do the exchange so that you don't have to interact with him at all?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare I have been thinking about that. The first 2 weeks we pretty much had no contact with exchanging the kids it was hi/bye and he later said I was being stand offish(which I still don't understand why he cares  ) The problem with that we have a very young toddler so usually have some exchange about the kids. The youngest just can't get out of the car by itself. I will say that starting next week most of the exchanges can be done with little or no contact because I am thinking of doing them mostly through the daycare. 

Do you think I should give him the letter? I have a stack of other bills to give him so he will probably freak out about them.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

No I would have as little contact with him as possible, FSW. Little or nothing that he says will be positive or grounded in reality so why submit yourself to it? Further, he's not retarded so he knows that he can either pay the child support voluntarily or be garnished. Giving him the letter would most likely only be a Love Extinguisher (like judging him disrespectfully) that leads to more Extinguishers (like angry explosions). Thus I say put the bills in a big envelope, go get the baby, hand him the envelope, don't talk to him, and if he says "hey why you being so cold?" just say what I told discarded, "Are you ready to devote ALL of your affection and loyalty to your wife? You're not? Okay, contact me when you're ready to commit to that. Bye." ...smile and turn and walk away. 

Seriously, every other thing out of his mouth is just dizziness and blame anyway so why go there?

***************

P.S. When you hand him the bills, don't let him yell and scream at you. Just hand them to him calmly and keep repeating, "It is not my responsibility. Since you've chosen to leave, these are the consequences of your own choices. I won't take ownership of your choices. I wish you well taking care of these."


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I am so ashamed of what happen tonight I feel stupid even writing what happen but I need too 

H texted me that he had a 'new' proposal for me with the child support pretty much he wants to drop it because he is making less then what he did last year(we went off his 08' return and not current paystubs) I listened to him and I hate to admit it but we pretty much agreed to 25% of his paycheck and him paying 100% of the daycare and I get 25% of any overtime/holiday pay. I looked and I am actually still coming out ahead. 

Now to why I am ashamed.....

We got to talking and it went down to where we were standing and he pretty much told me that I have hurt him too much over the past 2-3 years. That I have made him feel very unloved and he resented me for it. I have done this I have not been a good wife. He told me that he feels too much damage has been done and he just cant go back to fighting with me. That I have hurt him too much. I told him that I think we could be happy and I would never ask him to go back to the way it was. I then asked him if he wanted a divorce and he sort of scooted around the issue and then told me that he didnt want to get a lawyer but he didnt think it could be helped. 

I then told him I wouldn't sign off on a divorce yet because I felt we could fix it and be happy again and I would not sign off on a divorce until we had exhausted every avenue. He then told me I couldn't force him to stay married and I told him that I could not. I then said I would not contest a divorce if I felt it was truly over and we couldn't work on it. 

He then told me I am not listening to his feelings and that he needs to just live and have space. That I have hurt him so much. I then asked him if he just wanted me to get the papers or if he wanted to wait a few months. He then told me he would be willing to wait a few months to see what happens(but he almost seemed so-so about it) I told him I would give him time to think.

Then he came over and hugged and kissed me and told me it would be 'OK' and we started to mess around but we did NOT have sex just heavy petting ect. 

It was not a fight. In fact it was probably the most civil and calm conversation we have had since he left 5 weeks ago. I feel like I might really of lost him this time. I think he might really be done and I dont know how to feel about all of it. Part of me thinks I might of made some head room and part of me thinks I might of taken a huge step backwards again.

I have also realized I have NO self control around him I am way to wrapped up. I think I realized I have to go no/little contact. If not to just give him time to think but also to save myself.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm only going to comment on one part right now, okay FSW? You and your husband are married. The only morally legitimate sexual outlet for either of you is in the marriage. 

My only concern would be that you can not be certain that is the only outlet to which he is availing himself!

Thus it makes complete sense to me that you get carried away a little with him. He is your husband; he is the person to whom you committed to faithfully meet his sexual needs and he yours; and you are a sexual woman and a human being. DUH! 

Anyways no worries lady. So you're weak in the knees for your own husband--I don't really see how that's a fault.  Seriously! I would just suggest reading up on safe sex and insisting on... well medical safety unless or until, you know? Otherwise to my mind what happens between you two is your business and between a married couple. No ink is dry yet, is it?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare thanks I just felt so silly I seriously just wanted to jump on him but we pretty much got interrupted by one of the kids and part of me is glad we did. I am still very attractive to him and I have needs.... Also like I said before I just WONT have sex with someone who I don't know for sure is only having sex with just me. I wont put myself at that risk.

It was very surreal this was the 1st time I realized I might of just lost him for good and it was a very calming panicky feeling.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

I had that same feeling of calm panic--weird, isn't it--the moment it hit bem that I could not remain married to my ex. I think the "calm" is b/c one issue is resolved (there is no going back). The panic is about the future, the unknown. I remember thinking, too, how can I feel so calm when I am so scared? But it was empowering--to know I could face the unknown without falling apart. I hope you feel that way, too.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Sisters I think you just hit the nail on the head. It was a very very strange feeling. It was almost relieving. I was/am terrified but I know what ever happens I can do it. I will be OK.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

finallyseewhy said:


> We got to talking and it went down to where we were standing and he pretty much told me that _*I have hurt him*_ too much over the past 2-3 years. That _*I have made him feel very unloved*_ and he resented me for it. *I have done this I have not been a good wife*. He told me that he feels too much damage has been done and he just cant go back to fighting with me. That _*I have hurt him too much*_. I told him that I think we could be happy and I would never ask him to go back to the way it was. I then asked him if he wanted a divorce and he sort of scooted around the issue and then told me that he didnt want to get a lawyer but he didnt think it could be helped.
> ...
> 
> He then told me _*I am not listening*_ to his feelings and that he needs to just live and have space. That _*I have hurt him so much*_.


fsw, I just wanted to point out that his conversation with you, as you describe it, is 100% about HIM. 

When you are feeling weak, try to remember that he is making NO effort to care about anyone but himself. That's not the husband you want back. Until he starts talking about how much pain YOU have been in, he's manipulating you.

So...have you told anyone yet? IMO you are missing a KEY component of recovering from an affair - exposing it so that he can no longer pretend to everyone that he is a victim and not a perpetrator. The only way you can get your marriage back is if OW is gone. That will never happen unless the affair dissolves. The best way for that to happen is if people know about it and DISAPPROVE of him for it. Please think about it.

The wishy-washy limbo you are in cannot end well, if the affair doesn't stop. For now, he has no reason to stop it. He can come back because of money, but that will not remove the issue of an affair being a great escape for him, in the future. He needs to understand the consequences of the AFFAIR, not just those of moving out.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Turnera your very very right and the last 2 days I have really realized how much it is ALL about him in an almost disturbing way  

I guess my me wanting our family back together and being willing to do anything to do that almost is back firing on me. I guess me willing to 'prove' to him that I can make him happy is being used against me as a manipulative tool.....very sad. 

I have not told anyone and it has been almost 6 weeks since he left. I guess part of me was hoping he would just come back and I wouldn't have too. A bigger part of me was ashamed my marriage was failing and others may find out. I have never been someone that told people we were having any troubles. We lived up to the 'prefect' family very very well. But I feel extremely alone right now and really need to tell someone so I am going to have to take the leap.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Once you prove to yourself that you can and will be able to live without him, you will feel better because no matter what he does, you will already be stablized..and it's all about getting our emotions in check.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Your right this was something I have thought a lot about today. Once I am up and running with a job I will be 'OK' and not have to worry so much about that. 

The last 2 days have just been very strange and I am actually probably more in limbo then I was before. He is confused and so am I and I think both of us are very scared.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

I hate 'limbo'..I was in it deeply, crawled out and thought I was free of it, but last few days I have crept back in it inspite of trying not too..I wonder if our kids might be keeping that 'limbo' feeling floating out there?:scratchhead:


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well they say even the 40 year old child of divorce in therapy will still say they have a flicker of hope their parents will get back together lol 

The confusion is so strong around here right now I honestly wish I could just run off on v-kay for a month BUT I probably would be miserable because I wouldn't be able to talk/text him.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

I hear you..I plan on going somewhere for a few..just to get away from seeing the same things on a daily basis..maybe a few days on the beach will wash my senses clean...who knows, maybe I'll meet a mermaid


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I would love to get away but I don't think that is going to happen right now or honestly anytime soon. Once I have a job and am out of the house more I imagine it will get a 'little' easier right now I am inside the house just thinking all day long.

I am beginning to wonder if I something I am doing is really wrong. Is it wrong for me to keep letting him that I love him and want him to come home? I know that sounds probably stupid but is it?


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Just keep thinking about how you will feel about when you do get a job:smthumbup:..and think about all the things you'll do once you get one..I know it sucks right now feeling like your stuck in the same dream because your living in the house..but it'll get better because you've already out it in your head that once you start working it'll get better.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you read any of TanelornPete's advice on stopping an affair? It's similar to what you can find at marriagebuilders.com. It DOES involve telling the important people in HIS life, if he refuses to stop cheating, so that they can help you show HIM that an affair is a bad thing to do. If the people whose respect he craves the most are disappointed in him, he will FEEL it. It will/can make the affair feel like what it really is - nasty, shameful, disgusting. That is key to stopping an affair - to make it not feel so 'wonderful' any more. It also involves telling the OW's husband and/or parents/siblings for the same reason.

It is NOT a mean thing, a bad thing, a vengeful thing, if you do it solely to get help stopping the affair so you can have your marriage back. Your marriage can survive his anger at you exposing what HE did, but it cannot - obviously - survive another person. Plus, telling people will give YOU help, as you say. 

Please do so as soon as possible. Unless you're at the point where you just don't want him any more. You tell me.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

The problem I am having with the telling people is his family does not care....I mean honestly he doesn't talk to them and the only person familywise he cares about is my Mom. 

Also it is an emotional affair and I am pretty sure it was very 1-sided and just his side. That is where I am having the problems figuring out what to do.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

EA/PA what's the difference...they say an EA is harder to recover from 'fsw' and I believe that to be true for the woman, not sure about the man because they tend to only want the PA as a way of the ego boosting the woman brings along with her body..remember..I know that part It's hard for me to see as a male it just being an EA..but who really knows anything?..


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

2daughters I am positive that I know it was just a EA....I don't say that very often but I am know after the last 2 days a lot stuff came out. 

Funny thing is he truly thinks he still has done NOTHING wrong that it is a friendship and that we were having problems before.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

I believe you 'fsw' I was using a generalization from these forums that's all


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I know LOL I think honestly it just being that makes me even madder. He is seriously confused right now to such a point it is freaking me out and making me even worse.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Talk to your mom about it, and ask her to talk to him.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I am going to talk to her today I don't know if she will talk to him but it is worth a shot 

Something is going on and I DONT know what it is but something is happening. Last night we texted off and on and he said something about how we were still broken and he was having reservations about us. Then he said it needed to be fixed to a text he sent and I asked him if meant our marriage or him becoming unmarried. He texted me back 'my control issues' I told him that I was working on it and making progress(it is a serious issue with me) But it also make me realized he really believes it is ALL my fault and am the only one that needs to change. 

This morning he texted me something sort of strange and for some reason I was uneasy so I looked at the account that my name is still on that he uses. He did not pay for his full amount of his hotel and there were a couple of other charges that sort of got me thinking. I am not sure whats going on but I imagine I will find out sooner then later


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Sorry to hear that 'fsw'..but you do realize that, you can't make him change or change him or his feelings..what sucks is our spouses are not on these sites wondering what, why or when..they are doing what they want...and slowly but surely we realize, that is what we have, let alone need to do...:scratchhead:...I know it's a 'cliche' but time only heals if during that time we are taking care of ourselves and NOT wondering every move our spouse makes, and even if we do wonder, not reacting to it..time means nothing, if all we do is react to them during that time.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Your right 2D I am getting to the point of not reacting it was honestly taking up just too much of my time/energy & almost making me go back wards in my progress of myself. 

What I saw was not really a bad thing but makes me realize he might be more confused then what I originally thought.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

finallyseewhy said:


> I am going to talk to her today I don't know if she will talk to him but it is worth a shot


Hey FSW--when a loyal spouse is doing C-D-E (Confront-Disclose-Expose) usually the first thing we recommend is asking your spouse directly to end the EA and honor their commitment to the marriage (confront); then pick one person such as a mentor, parent, pastor--someone who the disloyal would look up to or consider highly. The point is to speak to one other person who is likely to have a significant impact on your disloyal and talk to them on behalf of the marriage. Now in your instance, I do believe it is time to let your family know--even if it's just to inform them that it's occurring. I know you feel somewhat embarrassed to tell your family that your marriage is having trouble (I'll be honest--I felt that way too), but if you tell them, they can support you and encourage you! And when/if they do run into your disloyal, they can tell him "Hey what the heck man?"  

But in your instance there is ONE person who could really end this thing and end it fast--and that's the OW. You yourself have said that it's an EA and pretty one-sided at that. Well your disloyal CLEARLY is willing to high-tail it and leave everything for someone who may or may not even have an interest in him! I think one way to end this affair--and quickly--would be for you to call the OW directly and tell her that he has left his children and his wife and part of his reasoning is because he has a crush on her! Let her know that you love him, that you don't intend to just give up, and that you will fight for your marriage! Honestly? She may very well end the EA right then and there by telling him "Hey I don't want to get involved with some married guy and his wife." 

I personally would recommend calling her (if you have the courage and the phone number). If she can/will end it--darn let her kill the affair! And if she won't, then I would suggest calling your parents and siblings, their work, OW's husband, and if they don't know already his parents and siblings. There is no guarantee anyone will do anything to stop it, but it won't be this wonderful, secret romantic rendevous anymore. (And by the way--yep he will be mad. Your marriage can survive anger, but it can not survive an affair. The goal is not to be a doormat or avoid anger. Okay?)



> Something is going on and I DONT know what it is but something is happening. Last night we texted off and on and he said something about how we were still broken and he was having reservations about us. Then he said it needed to be fixed to a text he sent and I asked him if meant our marriage or him becoming unmarried. He texted me back 'my control issues' I told him that I was working on it and making progress(it is a serious issue with me) But it also make me realized he really believes it is ALL my fault and am the only one that needs to change.


And before you reconcile or let him move back home, it is FUNDAMENTAL that he admit to himself and you where HE went wrong, that he make the effort to work on himself (like looking up counselors and actually going and doing the homework), and that he consistently demonstrate the changes he's made by his behavior!! FSW, if he doesn't see his side of the "brokenness" and does nothing to fix it, then nothing will change and it will all happen again. I know you very badly want him to come home and be happily married again, but "the way it was before" is part of what contributed to the affair that's happening now. So he also has to do some changing or you will pay with a lot of emotional pain. 



> This morning he texted me something sort of strange and for some reason I was uneasy so I looked at the account that my name is still on that he uses. He did not pay for his full amount of his hotel and there were a couple of other charges that sort of got me thinking. I am not sure whats going on but I imagine I will find out sooner then later


Just a quick NOTE TO SELF, FSW--how EXACTLY does this fit in with your current Plan A--Carrot & Stick and with your working on your controlling behavior? Being controlling is manipulating the situation so that it turns out the way you want. Soooo...in Plan A--Carrot & Stick a person works on their own personality issues and ends all Love Extinguishers...right? So that they are showing the disloyal how it could be good "at home" (but also just to be a better person, wife, and mother). How does what you're doing fit that plan? And in Plan A--Carrot & Stick a person allows their disloyal to endure the effects of their choices...does not stand in the way and enable their bad choices, but rather stands aside and lets them reap the benefits of good choices and the reap the losses and misfortunes of bad choices. Again, how does what you're doing fit that plan? 

Please keep reminding yourself that your goal--your MAIN FOCUS--is you, and not him. Not what he's doing, who he's doing it with, where he's doing it, why or how he's paying for it. Your sights should be set on YOU and making you the woman you can be. Apply for a good job for which you are qualified. Look for self-help books on control. Practice the new, non-controlling behaviors and then when they don't go perfectly--reflect one how to change it to do it better. Go to a parenting class for kids who's parents are separated--learn how to give them the emotional tools to deal with this. And don't stay at home stewing on things. If you have free time, go volunteer. Pick a charity in which you passionately believe and offer your time. You can be a volunteer mediator, help with office work at a women's shelter, walk stray dogs, feed the homeless, or train to be on your local rape crisis hotline! See how all those things make YOU a better person? And if he chooses to wallow, let him and don't worry about it. He'll either figure it out or not. Meanwhile keep your focus on what YOU are doing (not him).


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I actually did confort the OW....which made him extremely mad and humiliated. I can say that I believe in my heart it was very one sided and she was honestly in disbelief and went as far to tell me she would happily print up phone records to show who calls/text who and to ask anyone I want she was not interested. She even told me she would of done the same thing and then went on to till me about who her H cheated and she would never do that to another person. 

I am going to talk with my Mom tonight it is going to be hard and I am going to try to not put too much details in it yet but I need to let her know. 

I want my family back desperately but I am beginning to almost come to the realization that it just may not happen. H just texted me again asking what I could do and he doesn't think he can be with me in a relationship because I have destroyed him emotionally...which I have over the years. But he has also me  I told him I believed I could be there for him emotionally but I would not push him. 

I am going to take a turn and just almost 'let go' I am going to just work on myself it is honestly the only thing I can do right now. I almost feel like I have went backwards on my own progress right now. I am beginning to realized that it just may be over and for good and I have to get myself in a good situation and fast. I really don't have time to mess around to be honest. I don't have time to worrying about what he is doing and who with. I have to get myself mentally healthy and also find a job and transition from a SAHM to a working one. I don't have much time and I am wasting precious time.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

FSW- I am right there with you. I'm pretty controlling too, I want my H to react the way I think he should , do the things I think he should . When he doesn't I am upset, disappointed and angry. Lord knows he has issues , but I cant make him better himself unless it matters to him. I'm having a hard time waiting this out too. I am just staying focused on protecting the kids and I and moving forward with getting support and custody/visitation filed with the courts. If he truly wants what he says he does, he'll make the effort. I cant force the issue as much as I want to- because it wont work and would probably do just the opposite. His mood swings right now are difficult, but work and the kids keep me busy. Your H sounds pretty up and down too. It was hard for me too with the money my H was wasting, but I finally let it go a few months ago and he will have to deal with it. My accounts are all separate and it's his problem. The courts will deal with him on the money he owes for support, I had to let that go too. It's hard and unfair  You are very strong and capable. Both of us have our children with us and if our Husbands want to miss out on watching them grow up and sharing in their lives it is truly their loss. Our children will remember who was there for them and set a good example. Please let your family know so they can offer support, I dont know what I would have done without my family.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Don't beat yourself up anymore 'fsw'..you have done that enough!!..he sounds like my wife, in that he seems to say to the same reasons over and over for not wanting to get back..either that is their actual reason or there is an outside influence involved..he has in his head how he feels..you can't change that until you change..and it isn't going to happen overnight, it isn't going to be someone else making you change..it is not a change where you become another person, but a change in attitude about how you react to situations and how you wrap your mind around situations..like when he says "you done to much damage to me emotionally"..instead of telling him you can be there for him (which is never going to work)..you might try.."you know what?..you're right..I have been thinking about that and I am no good for you as I was, but I am going to change and if you're there great and if not that's great also."


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

2Daughters said:


> Don't beat yourself up anymore 'fsw'..you have done that enough!!..he sounds like my wife, in that he seems to say to the same reasons over and over for not wanting to get back..either that is their actual reason or there is an outside influence involved..he has in his head how he feels..you can't change that until you change..and it isn't going to happen overnight, it isn't going to be someone else making you change..it is not a change where you become another person, but a change in attitude about how you react to situations and how you wrap your mind around situations..like when he says "you done to much damage to me emotionally"..instead of telling him you can be there for him (which is never going to work)..you might try.."you know what?*..you're right..I have been thinking about that and I am no good for you as I was, but I am going to change and if you're there great and if not that's great also."*


I like that but do you think he will see me as saying this as being a *****? Honestly it is how I feel right now.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

see..already you are wondering WHAT HE WILL THINK!!!!..he has shown you what he thinks already in his actions, his words..it took me awhile to get that through my head...this is the case where actions do speak louder than any words.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

OMGosh your right  Seriously this is why I am so messed up right now!!!

But honestly do you think it is bitc*y or just straight forward?


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

Does it really matter if it is either one of those?..honestly, would it matter?..I think not..the current pattern you are using is not making any headway and in fact it is keeping you from moving forward..even if you have to 'fake it till you make it' KWIM
maybe it will be 'nano' steps at a time forward, but forward none the less...I think you have it in you to be just as strong without reacting to him and to start acting for yourself.

Remember, it took awhile to get to the place you are in..it is going to take awhile to get out and over it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Some great advice today...

I think the key thing of today's advice is...STOP thinking about him and START thinking about _what is right for YOU_, whether he comes home or not. Every conversation you have with him, let it be only about what YOU need in your life. Not what he needs to do or what you need from him...what matters to you.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I sent him a text very similar to what 2daughters said but a modified and I feel really good about it. I feel like I said what I needed too and we are know on somewhat of a even playing field. I am going to move on and just work on myself it is what I have to do and the last almost 6 weeks I have been working on myself BUT hindering it by reacting to every move he made. I wont my family but more then anything but right now I have to focus on making myself whole again. I can't continue to worry that he is not. 

He responded 'OK' and I didn't text back. I have to move forward with myself I can not let this break me....


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well today he was going to pick up the kids but he was really tried and asked if he could do it a little later(he is working a really strange schedule this week) I told him if he was tried that I would rather have him get some sleep and told him to good night and he texted back thanks and told me good night.....which was nice because I have told him this several times gnight and he usually never texts back. 

I sort of just wanted to 'see' him today so it probably is better that he didn't come this morning because I would of probably thrown myself in his arms. I miss his touch. I know that probably sounds pathetic but I miss it so much.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I am so ****ing sick right now what I 'think' I might of saw....seriously this day just needs to end.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

OK, that was sort of a vent  I am just so emotional right now and honestly just need to take a step back but am having an unbelievably hard time doing it when I am home with 2 little kids and no place to go and feel like a failure of a mother and wife....really just a person as a whole. I don't even know what I am going to do after August and I am just scared.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

fsw...focus on the boys and take it hour by hour..sorry you're going through this..hopefully you've reached a point where you can level off and think clearly instead of emotionally:scratchhead:..remember you have your family you can and must turn to if you need it.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You need to spend some time this weekend with family or friends. Seriously.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I think what makes the hardest is I am seriously alone where we live  all my friends and family is several states away. I talk to them online a lot but it is not the same. I started being a SAHM a few years ago and wouldn't change it but also pretty much diminished my social life. The people I do know are his friends and that is not happening. 

I asked him after this happen to be able to go back home for awhile with the kids and he freaked out and pretty much told me there was NO way he was allowing the kids to leave. I think he was scared I wouldn't come back  He also didn't want to be away from them. He is very very active in their lives and still sees them pretty much everyday.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So what about what YOU want? Quit giving him what HE wants. HE cheated. HE forfeits the right to make all the decisions.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I really can't leave the kids are his life and he is a very good dad and it would affect them too much to leave even for a month or so. They love their dad I just wish I could escape for awhile. 

I don't have the luxury as he does right now to go out to lunch/dinner with friends or out. He right now is getting to sit in a hotel room and even though he is 'strap' for money he is alone and come go and come as he wants. 

I am pretty sure nothing 'physically' happened when we were together but when it comes to during the separation I am not sure. He still thinks texting what he did to her was OK.....the sexual nature or even the none stop texting where he was complaining about me. I will say the ones I saw where it was sexually she pretty much was like....NO or 'are you kidding?;'


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you say so.

Where is your anger?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I wish I could be angry right now but I was not a very good wife I pushed him away and didn't make him feel like he a 'man' a lot of the time. I am not saying I was the only one that helped this marriage fall apart....if anything it is pretty 1/2 and 1/2. The only person I am angry at right now is myself  I am disappointed with him and just can't understand what side I am seeing of him. I can understand I hurt him but it is like my feelings dont matter at all & that is so not like him!! I also almost feel if I allow myself to get really angry I will sabotage myself and there will be no one at all fighting for this family. I am almost scared to know what will happen when the anger sets in towards him.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

FSW- The only advice I have for you is to try changing how you react to him - this has made all the difference with my H. I have finally stopped arguing and lashing out when he hurts my feelings or doesn't do what I want him to do and he actually has started apologizing for his statements/actions . It's an instinct with me to want to defend myself and hurt him back, but I now just tell him I am not going to argue or continue speaking with him until he calms himself, and can be respectful. It has really made a difference just this week. It went against my nature to apologize to my H the other night- he had been horrible and selfish and I really lost it and told him off- but that apology was a turning point for us. It diffused the situation and he then was able to see that his actions hurt me. Now, I have been separated for a long time, but I really did not think I had to change anything about what I was doing in the marriage( I was the victim) It wasn't until I actually tried changing my responses to him that things started to improve. When everyone keeps telling us to work on ourselves and not worry about the other person they are right . My husband is changing his responses because I changed mine. An easy concept, but one that took me almost 8 months to actually do. I'm pretty stubborn and so is he. I might also recommend getting a job or volunteering to get yourself out more , it might help with feeling resentment because he has so much freedom while you are home with the kids. I'm in the same boat, but I work full-time and have a a lot of adult interactions everyday and many friends at work. Things are still relatively new for you both and the beginning is very emotional and scary. I never thought things would change for the better, but they are starting to right now because I decided to try something different. I see the evil twin about 50% of the time now-a huge improvement from 2 weeks ago.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

cmf thanks the funny thing is I have NOT lashed out at him probably 98% of the time I have taken EVERYTHING he has said or done to me and just been calm/polite/nice(which is a 180 for me). I tend to only break down when I am by myself but today was a very hard day. I wont argue with him I just can't and wont. I find myself sometimes really having to stop and breath most of the times I talk or text to him but I do feel better by not lashing out. 

I have to get a job it is no option and I know when I do and am out and about I will feel better. Right now from the moment I get up till I go to bed I think and analyze and that is driving me crazy. I know it will get better but right now I feel like I barely escaping a tornado daily. 

The day ended 'nice' he text me something about tomorrow and the kids and it was like the text message exchange I always want but never get. He responded to me with more then 'OK' and almost felt like he was being nice. Said Thanks, and see you tomorrow and even told me 'bye' which I never hear anymore. I am trying to not think too much of it but it was nice. 

The very very sad thing is EVERYTHING I went through emotionally today was just from me thinking/processing stuff. Nothing he said to me today. I guess if anything I realized I need to find a way to filter my thoughts and keep busy.


----------



## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

The kids are the most important thing?..yet he cheats and doesn't want to live with them..hmmmm...doesn't add up.:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

finallyseewhy said:


> cmf thanks the funny thing is I have NOT lashed out at him probably 98% of the time I have taken EVERYTHING he has said or done to me and just been calm/polite/nice(which is a 180 for me). I tend to only break down when I am by myself but today was a very hard day. I wont argue with him I just can't and wont. I find myself sometimes really having to stop and breath most of the times I talk or text to him but I do feel better by not lashing out.
> 
> I have to get a job it is no option and I know when I do and am out and about I will feel better. Right now from the moment I get up till I go to bed I think and analyze and that is driving me crazy. I know it will get better but right now I feel like I barely escaping a tornado daily.
> 
> ...


 Yes, you do. But here's the point. What fsw described is what I asked you about: the anger, the indignation at what HE chose to do.

Did you get complacent and provide a boring marriage? Sure, we ALL do. But HE didn't have to go the path he went. HE chose an immoral, harmful, selfish route that destroys everyone. HE ruined YOUR life. All you did was get complacent.

The anger I asked about doesn't mean to yell at him. It means to know, in your CORE insides, that what he did to you was WRONG, and to know that you deserve better than that. You're walking around, taking on all the guilt, leaving him to run around scott free. Of course he's not back. You are letting him eat cake.

Only when you accept that what he did was wrong and stop accepting the blame for it will you look at him, KNOW he has a lot to make up for, and show that in your way of dealing with him, will he understand that HE has to stop what he's doing.

It means to command respect. He won't respect you until you respect yourself.


----------



## Neverwouldhave guessed (May 5, 2010)

Amen turnera! FSW-both cmf and I have seen improvements in our situations when we changed how we dealt with our H. I keep in my mind what turnera (I think) posted somewhere on this site. Show him you want to live with him, but can live without him. AND MEAN IT!! Wishes for a peaceful weekend....


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well this morning was good....I think? I am not counting on anything yet but H came over to get the kids and came up to the door and started kissing me and stuff. I didn't push back....to be honest I didn't want to. We talked for about an hour and he mentioned to him that I was enjoying my life and the changes I made and that I did want to be with him and our family to be back together but I was also happy and will survive without him if that is what happens. He then brought up coming back and being together. I almost felt he was sort of trying to bait me a few times but it didn't work. I remind calm and looked happy. I don't know where this will go and I can't pick it apart but if anything I think it was a positive conversation and I think he is really starting to see that if anything I can be happy without him. 

Yes, I was faking most of my happiness but for the most part I think it was positive.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well the last few days we have talked a lot and it has been very pleasant no fights or arguments....just nice. We actually have talked I think more in the last couple of days then we have during the whole 6 weeks we have been separated. 

When he has been texting it has been very nice and for glimpse of moments I even forgot all the pain and that he was gone. Today we were texting back and forth and he just 'stopped' and I texted him back and asked what was wrong? He told me that he was starting to remember all the 'other stuff' I told him I know we have had our problems(I figured I wouldn't hear back from him) and then he told that we were great sexually but bad for each other. He then text me one issue(that he has been telling me for pretty much the 11 years we have been together and it was an issue I should of changed a long time ago) I told him that I was working very hard on my issues and feel like I am coming a long way and starting to see a lot of things. He then said he didn't wanted to just have sex with me but he wanted it to be good in others ways too. 

He wasn't attacking me....which he has done texting me a lot in the beginning but was almost like he was just expressing his feelings. Also the last statement was something I have not heard from him in almost 2 months that he WANTED things to be good in others ways. I have only heard he wasn't willing to try right now and couldn't. 

I am not going to read to much into it or even get too excited. I can tell he is starting to clear his head, but its still a long road for both of us. Like on what I read on here I am going to expect the worse and be happy when I see different. This was small but I can say it has been very nice to talk to him and it just be 'nice'. It is a roller coaster so I guess I will have to just take the highs with the lows.


----------



## cmf (May 21, 2010)

sounds encouraging!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now is the perfect time to ask him what exactly he would change in a perfect marriage, if he had a chance. Then GIVE it to him!

In fact, print out the Love Buster questionnaire from marriagebuilders.com and ask him to fill it out. Tell him you need more clarification on how you can change. Not to get him back, but to know what you need to fix on yourself.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well today was sort of strange and I am not sure how to feel about what happen.....

We were talking and all OK and H pretty much(with out going through the whole convo) that we probably should not have sex anymore. I asked him if he wanted me to stop asking(even though he is the one who has pretty much asked every time) and he said 'probably should' I told him I would respect him if he wanted to not do it and I would understand. He told me that there was so many 'feeling involved' and that he wanted to 'relax and be by himself for a bit' I told him I was sorry if I upset him and that was not what I was trying to do but I understood and would respect his choice, that I enjoyed doing it but didn't want to upset him and that was more import to me. He told me to 'not worry he just needed to relax and be by himself a bit' then he told me to 'just leave it at that'....After I said I was working on myself. I then told him Good Night and he told me the same. 

I don't know how to take this and to be honest I am just not sure. It was not a fight at all. I have this feeling he wants to come home but is just fighting it. I guess I just have to wait to see....that is really the only thing I can do


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well that whole 'no sex' thing lasted less then 24hrs....

He came over to get the kids and he saw me and came inside(the kids were outside) and hugged me and told me everything would be 'OK not to worry' and we just held each other probably for 5 minutes then it went other places and he initiated it. I started to tell him I didn't want to do anything he didn't and he told me he wanted to. It was passionate and deep. We have always had a great sex life but this was above and beyond. He started to tell me he loved me(and whispered it once) but then said he 'loved doing this' I could tell he was almost scared. 

I hope this wasn't a bad thing I don't want him to think it was but I can't really tell what he is thinking right now  I can tell he is really conflicted right now and that he is hurting.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Plan A...great time to show him what he's giving up.

That said, there has to be a point at which you're not just 'easy SF' for him while he eats cake.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

turnera that is what I need to do I need to get do Plan A and really do it. I have been sort of confused on that :blush: I also need to not like you said be 'easy SF' I don't feel like he is using me for sex I really don't but I also just cant always bee there either! The hard part is I want him so bad physically it is hard.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well yesterday H and I text back and forth most of the morning and talked about things 'lighty' he experssed a lot of things that he had issues with and I told him how I could make them different and planned too.

After wards he invited me to go with him for something for our oldest. It was fun....a little awkward at 1st to be honest  I quickly snapped out of it and realized I needed to get out of that and quickly. It ended up being really fun. I rubbed his lower back because it was hurting and he moved closer to me on the bench and after wards before he dropped me off he laid his head on my shoulder....something he use to always do. He did come in and we did do stuff after. 

This morning he text me and asked what plans I had for today(he has the kids) he has been texting me back and forth. 

One thing we both talked about was how the last couple of years we stopped being a 'couple' and were just parents and that hurt a lot of things. Well the last 2 years I have been pretty much pregnant or nursing and it took a strain on us. Our youngest is very much a mama's boy and requires almost 100% of my attention almost 24/7 up until just recently. With our oldest it was more balanced. 

It was pretty productive for the most part. I am not expecting anything from all of it but it was nice to her what was exactly hurting him.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Awesome! IMO, that's exactly what you need to get closer to getting back together - togetherness AND honest discussions.

Do some thinking on ways that you could ensure husband/wife time (i.e., find someone else to watch the kids), and _let him know what you have come up with_. So he can visualize being back together and still getting to have you to himself some times. And he can see that you ARE considering his well-being.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Yes, that was what most of the convo was about. I told him that I miss being a couple and doing 'adult stuff' and he asked me how/why? I told him what I missed doing and that we needed to be together for more then 2-3 hrs and unwind TOGETHER. That the kids were old enough to spend a day/night somewhere. That it was just too important to put off and I would never sacrifice that again in the future.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

finallyseewhy~

It sounds like you are making GREAT progress! I'm seeing two steps...three steps...four steps forward! YAY! :smthumbup::yay:

I would like to remind you of something though. You have taken great ownership of your Love Extinguishers and made good progress toward ending them and communicating your plans to your hubby, but in a marriage it does take two to tango. I have not yet heard you mention anything about him recognizing the Love Extinguishers he did to your love fire, not have I yet heard him taking ownership of changing so he doesn't do it again, nor communicating his plans to you. 

I know you very, VERY, *VERY *much want him back but to rebuild a marriage so that an affair does not happen again, there needs to be more than just you working here. I'm not saying you should be demanding but more like a reminder: Don't Forget That! He also will need to make changes--if nothing else to identify his weaknesses that lead to an EA and to guard himself against his own weaknesses! TWO PEOPLE need to be rebuilding this marriage. Okay?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Affaircare oh I completely agree yesterday when we were talking I can remember even at a few times when I was admitting my faults and how I wanted them to change thinking, 'can you throw me a bone here! and say something back about how you want to change!!'

I am taking ownership not only for THIS marriage but at this point mostly for myself to make myself whole again. Your right I want him back and this marriage to work BUT I wont go through this again....I just can't. 

I am willing to fight and work on it but I will not let it just slip down the same path. I realize that until I hear/see somethings it just me. I am expecting nothing and if I get something then great! 

I also realize that he is at the point he needs to hear what I am going to do and I hope that he will feel comfortable enough to give me what I am giving to him right now. 

I just got done texting him he pretty much did it all morning. he has the kids and I know he knows I have planned to go to the a class and also do something tonight(not a bar lol )and I think on some levels it made him jealous. It wasn't my purpose of it but I guess he also realizes that I can live without him


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I always recommend you showing him you WILL have a life without him. IMO, nothing drives a cheater crazier than to realize his BW isn't at home, crying for him to come back to her - which is part of what feeds his love for the cheating - the ego stroking. Big wakeup call.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Yep, I know the last few days he has texted me in the morning and asked what I had planned for the day and I pretty much said nothing kids, cleaning, daily stuff. Well when he found out I was going to this class and out to have some fun he wanted to know where I was going and who was going....I didn't do what he told me a month ago....'none of your business why does it matter!!' but I didn't really go into it either just that I was going to go out with a few girl friends and changed the subject. He did comment that he thought I didn't have any plans but I didn't take the bait. I also mentioned yesterday that I was thinking about joining a softball team and he sort of hinted around him playing with me. 

I think that your right. I honestly am glad I didn't go right out after he left but it is coming up on the 6-7the week of our separation. and I am feeling more clear(a little bit) and emotionally to go out and have a cup of coffee with a friend or join a team. I even called up a few old gf's I haven't talked to in ages to see if they wanted to go meet up for lunch. I see that it is getting a reaction from him and not a bad one either which I really thought it would. I thought he would see it as I was giving up and just forgetting out our marriage.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

*7 weeks to the DAY he left I heard the words I had been praying and hoping for.....*

Last night I went out and H blew up my phone like a love sick teenager. I didn't snap at him or turn my phone off...which I probably should of. This morning at 5:30AM he text me to call him when I wake up its an emergency. The mommy in me of course freaked out and woke up!!! What was the emergency? Our youngest had no clothes(I packed several outfits) they were all dirty and wondered if he could come by and get something. I quickly realized it was just a ploy to talk to me. He started in just chit chat, did I mention it was 5:30AM for almost 2 hours later he says something about being separated and I didn't really understand it so I texted back OK? and he then tells me that he has been thinking a lot about what is best for us and the kids and with his head and is no longer scared.

I am lost for words I don't even know what to say or do at this point. I sort of got a little time to think because his work called my phone and needed him so I text him to call them. I need time to 
think this all out.


_______

Well I just text him and asked him how he saw us, that I had started and made a lot of changes and didn't want to go back to where we were at. He said that he didn't want to work on it and not be here to benefit from it. I then asked him if he noticed a change in me and he said lately but the bad was still in the back of his head. I told him I never expect him to forgot for am I just realize what our mistakes were and take ownership of them and grow from them. 

Like I said I don't know how to feel I am excited but then very cautious right now. I want to jump up and down and be happy that our family could be getting back to being whole again but I am scared. I can't go back to the way it was and go through all of this again. I am willing to fight and work with everything I have but I have to know I have a partner in this fight and not going at it alone.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds good.

BUT...

You have to have set rules in place for HOW you will ACCEPT him back.

Those need to include:
He writes a No Contact letter to OW that YOU read, and YOU send to her.
He gives you all his passwords to phone and computer, even work.
He vows to hand over his phone/computer any time you ask for it with NO FLACK from him, until you no longer need to check up on him.
He agrees to go to marriage counseling for at least a year, and as long as you feel it is helping you two.
You may want to include a postnup agreement wherein he agrees to give up marital assets if he is found cheating again.

If he's willing to accept these conditions, go for it!

If he is not, he's just jealous and wants to keep eating cake and he will continue to cheat.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

turnera it has been a very interesting day and you are right no every part. I know he has been texting me and it has been clouding my mind and not really in a good way either. I almost feel like I need to really think this out BUT I think it is because at this point he thinks he is just going to be able to waltz back in and that is not the case....I don't want to punish him for leaving. If anything I probably want to thank him because I think it was needed not only as a couple but for me to grow personally. 

I feel on many levels he feels like he has control for the 1st time in 11 years and is almost abusing it. I take full ownership in that I had complete control the past 11 years dictating every thing he did from little to small. He pretty much was at my beckon call and I took advantage of it. When he left he realized he had control and use it to almost 'punish' me because I had hurt him for so many years. He knew the ball was in his court. 

Tonight he was headed somewhere with the boys and wanted me to come and see him and not go to the class I already had planned(it was with my bf) I told him that I really couldn't flake out on her and he gave me a guilt trip and said he just wanted to see me. Then he told me he was going to do something(for me and him a surprise) that there is no way he could afford(being separated) and he told me to not worry about it to just trust him. I asked him to please tell me where he was getting the money and he told me to not worry and to this was a 'test' to trust him! I then asked him what he meant by that and he said he meant to just trust him unconditionally because it would be fantastic and I would be excited. I told him that I wish he would just tell me because we probably should talk about it. 

He has told me about 10x's how good of a day he is having and how happy he is. Like most of you know I want my family back.....I want it back so much but I also know that this can't just be a quick choice move your bags back and come home type of thing within the hour thing. I can't do this to myself again and more so I can't do it to the 2 children again. Our oldest is devastated and the toddler sat by the window calling his dada for the 1st 3 weeks and now when H comes into the house he waves bye-bye to him. 

I am going to ask him if he wants to go get some coffee and talk about it tomorrow or Monday. I know part of me was scared if I put it off till Monday he would change his mind BUT with that said if he is feeling the way he is that shouldn't change and that is what I am worried about  I am scared to get excited planning for him to come home and him tell me 'oops never mind'


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well I think I might of just figured out where he thinks he is getting the money....I couldn't figure it out because I still look on the account and realize that he pretty much has barely enough to get by like usually but could do it. Where he was getting this $$$ he was saying. Well then it hit me....He just paid for his extended stay hotel and they will refund you for if you leave early. This is the only way I can see him getting the money the ONLY way.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fsw, this is a very ... dangerous time. He is showing all the symptoms of getting ready to PUSH you to reconcile. I mean PUSH. And if you don't agree, he will turn MEAN. I've seen it a dozen times before. No matter how you acted before the marriage, there is only ONE way this can work out - for him to admit what he did, follow the steps described above, and be REMORSEFUL for what he has done to you. You may have not been a great wife, but HE chose to cheat. YOU had nothing to do with that, and HE will have to own that devastation for the rest of his life.

It sounds like he is (1) being selfish and thinking only of himself and (2) trying to manipulate you. Does that sound like the husband you want back? The minute you show some independence and stop being the crying, begging housewife who was feeding his ego by sitting by the window waiting for him to come back, he goes crazy. What does that tell you? It tells ME that his actions of the last few days are 100% ABOUT HIM. You're taking away the control, as you say. That doesn't mean he is suddenly seeing the pain he caused you.

Add that to the fact that he is desperately broke, and all I see is a guy who sees you as a quick fix to his problems, not someone who regrets what he's done.

My dad did what your husband did - left my mom cos she wasn't fun enough, she wouldn't quit work and be the housewife he wanted, to stroke his ego, but after he'd sowed his oats for a few months and hated being broke and having no one take care of him, he tried to come back. But it was for all the wrong reasons. And she refused him. She said she never regretted that, because he was being a jerk, and she deserved better than to be his second choice. 

I'm not telling you to say no. I'm telling you that, if you say yes, be SURE it is under YOUR conditions. If he won't agree to them - and _follow through_ - he's just using you.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Tunera that is what I am scared of. I am not willing to be pushed into this just like I couldn't push, beg, cry for him to stay. It has to be a partnership and nothing else. I am not willing to take any less and I don't think that its a bad thing. Like the things above that is a MUST and I am not willing to take any less. 

I think there was some jealously that I seemed to be moving on. He knew that I still wanted our family but it wasn't going to stop me from being happy either. His comment about not wanting to work on it and be here with out the benefits stung a little bit because I had told him almost the exact thing 7 weeks ago about how hard it would be working on it from afar. 

He asked me to call him last night and I decided to just ask him flat out what he wanted/thinking. That 'trusting' was fine but I also needed to hear it too. He told me he is realizing that we can work on it and be happy. It was strange it was the 1st night I slept well in a long time. Not because I thought he was coming home but more so because I knew *I* was going to be happy in my future even if I couldn't tell exactly what that was. 

This morning he text me to wake me up and we talked this morning and it was nice. We talked more about the things that needed to change and what we wanted in our future. I still feel it is very one sided and I am doing most of the talking at this point and he is listening. He told me many times today that he was nice to see the things I want to change and that he is happy about it. But nothing from him about what HE wants to change. Also he has NOT said when he is planning on coming home either. But talked about our life together. 

Tonight he is dropping off the kids and he said he wanted to spend some time with me too. I don't really know where to take it from here. Do I just sit back and sort of let it play out? Do I flat ask him what his plans are? I did touch on the list of things last night and he seemed like it he was more then willing to do all of them....but oh course actions speak louder then words....


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would write him a letter, to hand to him when he leaves tonight. Don't discuss anything important. Tell him you've written him a letter, and in it is what it would take for you to be willing to accept him back. Set the bar VERY HIGH. If you have any doubt about whether he's really just falling back cos it's easy, include a postnup agreement wherein if he is caught cheating again, he forfeits all family assets except what he came to the marriage with. If he's truly remorseful and cognizant of how he has hurt you, he will UNDERSTAND this and he will have the HUMILITY to accept it.

Hand it to him as he's leaving, and tell him to think if over for a few days. Tell him you do NOT want to discuss this for at least until Wednesday, or Saturday, your choice. That way, he isn't just jumping home because of money, and if he's broke, tough. His choice.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Tunera that is what I am thinking of doing that way I can get ALL my thoughts out and clear and in order. I guess in many ways this will be the most important letter I write. You are right if he wants his family back then the bar being set high should not be an issue what so ever. I don't want him to see that I am punishing him for leaving but that coming back needs to be done write. part of me was scared if I waited he would change his mind and that is NOT the way I should be thinking. No lines of communications have been shut down and things are going well right now and I need to keep positive BUT realistic too.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did I ever give you the kid stealing analogy? If you catch your kid stealing candy, and you just say Bad! Don't do that again, let's go home...will he steal again? Probably. If you take him back to the store, make him apologize, and work off the candy he stole, will he do it again? Far less likely. He has to FEEL the consequences in order to learn. Otherwise, it's just easy to do it all again.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Well the last few days have been very strange and emotionally and I am even more confused then before. I am going to try to summarize it because I am still 'foggy' with all that has been happening. 

H told me on Friday(I think....its been such a blur) that he was ready to work on his family and talked about coming home. The next day I was sort of in shocked went out with my friends and he texted me over and over. Then the next day still texting me from about 530AM till late at night. Was being super nice....nicer then he has been in such a long time I can't remember. Asking about my day, texting me little things about what was going on with the kids and stuff he saw, telling me g'night ect. Well that evening he tried to get me to cancel my plans and meet him(I didn't) and he text me so much it was embarrassing.....I can not even IMAGINE what would of happen if I texted him when he went 'out' a month ago but I can tell you it wouldn't of been good....

Yesterday he came over(we did some stuff and he spent some time with the kids at the house) I FLAT OUT asked him what he was planning on doing if he was going home and if so when? He told me he would give me an ANSWER on Thursday!! That I just had to TRUST him that it was going to be OK. He left and that night texted me till 2AM and I told him I HAD to go. 

Well I sent him a e-mail last night telling him what I needed, how I have worked on myself and how I didn't want to go through this again. It was a very straight forward e-mail. I also told him that I wanted to trust him but this was not a decision that could only be made with 1-person(him) it had to be made as a couple. That I would talk to him on Thursday and we could meet at Starbucks. He texted me afterwords told me he read and asked me if I wanted to go out to lunch? I asked him if he read it he said yes and acted as if it was not a big deal.

This morning he texted me this morning asking what I was doing. I told him to call me. I asked him what he thought about the e-mail and how he felt. He told me that he told me that he thought we could work on it. I asked him how? I told him I have pretty much laid all my cards on the table admitting what I had done wrong and taking ownership of it. Told him how I would change things and what I needed/wanted from a marriage. The I told him that I needed to hear what he was feeling....he responded 'I think we can work on it' I asked him how. That I needed him to tell me HOW. That he just doesn't get to decide to come home when ever he wants it has to be a choice made together. He then got defensive saying I didn't want him back, that I haven't been listening, that I just needed to TRUST him and that was the biggest thing for him. That I just needed to trust him. When I told him I was not the only one that hurt this marriage and I needed to know what he was going to do different it was almost like he was SHOCKED that I said it. I guess he figures that because I have been very open with how I was changing and my mistakes he didn't need to admit any of his. 
He did tell me he told his 'friend' today that we were getting along very well and he was working on his marriage. That it was always a friendship but he can understand why I felt other ways. I contacted her and she told me that he did say that and that she never did have ANY feelings for him other then a friend like she told me before and still feels the same way towards him.

Tonight he texted me and I told him that I would talk to him Thursday and he said, 'what about tomorrow' I told him I was going to be very busy and he asked why and I sort of made up a 'list' of stuff. I am going to just turn off my phone. I need him to think and so do I. He told me 'ok and good night' I fully expect him to try to call/text but I am going to be busy....

I feel like I am in a very strange place. I want to believe he is ready to work on it, but part of me is fully prepared for him to either tell me 'sorry I can't' or just not say what I NEED to hear. I am going to have to hear something more then just 'trust me' I am hoping for the best but not planning on it either. I need him to show that he is ready to truly work on this marriage. I can not put myself through this again or our children. 

If on Thursday he is willing to do what is needed then great!! But if he tells me he cant I am going plan B and no contact and moving forward towards what I have to do. I guess I will just have to see what happens.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Good luck. Spend tomorrow writing out a more detailed plan of what he would have to follow, specifically.

He seems like he just wants to skate on the surface, so it's going to have to be YOU preparing a specific, step by step guide on what you need from him, where you can _check off _if he has done each thing. Seriously.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Oh I know, this is something I have to think about because of it. H is someone in any aspect of his life needs to almost have his 'hand held' so even if this was not something serious I would have to do that. 

I have to really KNOW what I want and be blunt and up front with it. I am not not willing to take less.....I just can't.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I have a suggestion. On our site is this questionnaire: Love Extinguishers Questionnaire. My guess is that if you filled out that questionnaire answering for you the Love Extinguishers he did to you, that you would then have a fairly clear idea of what you NEED and what you want to ask for/request. NEED would be "This is non-negotiable, it's a hill to die on." Want to ask for/request would be "This is something I would very much like but it's not the end of the world." 

Another questionnaire that might help stir your mind and help you think clearly is the Love Busters Questionnaire. Please pick the questionnaire to be completed by the wife.

And by the way, finallyseewhy, we've been with ya through this--through thick and thin--and we aren't leaving you now. You've done WELL and I think this may be the final wake up call to getting a really good, mature, loving, committed marriage. He's stubborn-ish but not a bad guy at all and if you stand firm (but loving) on this I think you have real hope here. So if you need us, we're here and on PM. Okay?



P.S. Usually Tanelorn, turnera and I recommend at least these minimums:

1) A no contact letter that he writes and you send; and a way to enforce no contact. 

2) Access and passwords to all his accounts: email, facebook, cell phone, laptop, forums, and every single other way that he hid from you and kept in contact with OW. This goal of this is not to snoop and embarrass him but rather to give him the opportunity to create trust and give you the chance to verify his honesty.

3) A commitment to actually work on himself and the marriage. This would usually be demonstrated for a while first, and would include something like him showing you that he can end his Love Extinguishers, that he can increase the Love Kindlers to rebuild the marriage...and showing you that he can go to counseling and work on himself and his own issues. Demonstrating that he can be personally responsible for the things that he did and take ownership of his own stuff rather than blaming you for what he did. Make sense?


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

I just have to thank you all I really mean that I am not going to lie I DONT think I could of done this last 8 weeks without you guys  & even more so I don't think I would of grown at ALL from this experience I would of just become more bitter. 

I am going to print off those questioners and those requirements are on my list!

Funny thing something happen tonight and I am almost taking it as a 'sign' I have been talking to the OW/friend tonight and I have found out a lot about stuff. It is opening my eyes on a lot of things. They were not together I do believe that and I don't think she was interested in him at all....I really believe that in my heart. Funny thing is she is being very helpful. She is pretty much saying that he needs to figure his stuff out and telling me a lot of stuff. I will update tomorrow with all the info.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I have a suggestion. On our site is this questionnaire: Love Extinguishers Questionnaire. My guess is that if you filled out that questionnaire answering for you the Love Extinguishers he did to you, that you would then have a fairly clear idea of what you NEED and what you want to ask for/request. NEED would be "This is non-negotiable, it's a hill to die on." Want to ask for/request would be "This is something I would very much like but it's not the end of the world."



Hi finallyseewhy,
Big apologies for coming in on your topic like this.

Affaircare,
Your questionnaire re love extinguishers is the one single thing I’ve read in the past 6 months that validates how I feel. The validation comes from the “spiritual neglect” category which I’d termed “emotional abuse”. I’d also termed “love extinguishers” as “killed my love”. My wife fits into every single sub category and yes it was “horrible and very often” and I lost so much love for her there simply wasn’t any left.

If there was any chance of a reconciliation between us I would want to use your services because “I know you know”. But I don’t even want reconciliation but stranger things have happened.

Finallyseewhy,
I really do hope that you not only get what you need but also you get what you want. Good luck on your journey.

Bob


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

Bob thank you 

OK, so much has happen in the last few hours and I am so happy right now I can barely type but its good and I am going to come back and update later after I get some sleep(I haven't yet lol)

Its a great day today and I feel so blessed right now.


----------



## gally (Jun 28, 2010)

I hate to say this ... and I dont know if anyone else feels the same... but .. If you think about all the energy you put into a difficult relationship (And I am) perhaps it would just be better to bail out - deal with it and move on.


----------



## finallyseewhy (May 1, 2010)

gally there has been times in the past 7 weeks I have felt like that but it quickly passed. I know for some it would be and in some cases would be the best. I think every couple is different. In my situation the things that needed to change I felt they were achievable I know that was/is going to take energy and hard work but any relationship is. We just shouldn't of let it get to this point  but we did and now have to own our mistakes and try not to make them again. For me I quickly realized that even if my marriage didn't reconcile I had to work on these changes anyway to be healthy and happy in the future. 

I wish I would of done these things before. That I would of implicated them over the past 11 years but I didn't. This may sound very strange to some 2 weeks ago I realized this separation was a blessing in disguised.


----------

