# Found old counciling notes from husband



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Hope this makes sense.

My H and I have had a long term marriage, and it has hit skids for a few years now. 
I would give it about a 50/50 scale (on happiness)
where it used to be great - for about 20 years.

Since the shiz hit the fan,
We have gone to counciling, and recently, we took a break due to impass. We just can't seem to resolve any real issues.
Or get the ball rolling on a positive note. Life at home is "OK". but resentment scale is off the chart.

We are just wasting money banging head against a wall.

We have seen this M. counselor for a few years.
During this time, my husband has also seen an IC, at first I thought it was just fine, but after getting a sense of her "perspective" of things I have never been comfortable with her.

I thought she was rather "out there", but my H seemed to like talking to her.

Primarily she is a food abuse and substance abuse councilor, I understand she is not a marital counselor person. She also sees addiction counciling as her main bread and butter....

She diagnosed me (by talking to him), and has given him -- what I think are questionable "facts" about me/ my type of personality - because we apparently are co-dependant, and I am labeled as an "abuser".

(PS this has NOT been anywhere near the case in marriage counciling, in fact, he has been told to his face by two counselors (that they saw no evidence of abuse, addiction or "co dependancy" as he was describing it.)


His IC counselor has zeroxed "Dr. Phil" handouts. I know that Dr. Phil is considered a joke by many professionals, I certainly don't want his "relationship recovery" questioneres as part of my life. 

For my insurance to pay $120 an hour, I think he can do better then Dr. Phil handouts.
I asked him to find another counselor, he refuses...

.................Oh, well, I let it go.

Cleaning out my bedroom, I found an old envelope with my husbands notes from counciling with her.
two years ago, when we were in marriage counciling, my husband clearly stated that he was pro marriage, he apologised profusely for his actions. Times he was in an anger rage at me and kids, Said he was 100% for the marriage.

(Seven years ago he was having an emotional affair, (possibly P.A.) after an antagonising fight, I found out, I slapped him - I got arrested.) It was an embarrassing and expensive lesson. 

In MC, he said it was the biggest mistake of his life, he was sorry, he appologised, he was a "new, christian" man...

Well...
I found his notes from his sessions with the other counselor. This would be the same timeframe of the MC.
............ There were pages from websited dedicated to "Male victims of Domestic Violence".
and "are you married to an abuser?" questions...

This was clearly 4 years after the only ever incident. and NOT what he was saying in MC.

At the very least, I find this unkind characterization deceptive, but it was very dishonest to say one thing in MC, and follow this other vein in his IC.

I felt, by reading his answers to the Dr. Phil questions, that he really was still thinking about divorce, he apparetnly felt no remource for what he did, to me and/or the kids and apparently ALL the relationship problems were my fault.
... with my co dependant, abuser personality, I guess. 

I do not know what to do with this information. He of course, has "fuzzy memory" about the websites and questions, I beleive he is continuing to be deceptive. He knows what the MC said about this type of accusations, he does not want to admit that is what he was talking about.

He wants me to just get over it.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

I have no one to talk to. I have a thread about breaking bad patterns of communication in marriage, I know this is a huge problem.

But how could MC even have a shot at working if he deceptive and not truthful about his true feelings? 
Do I try to forget this information?

He still likes this IC, apparently, she has claimed that he is "cured" of his anger issues. I know this because he has come home from a session and claimed himself "cured".


He currently sees her twice a month, I guess. (I quit asking)
I am so sick of being frustraited at his deceptions and half truths. I am tired of fingerpointing and blame.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

....Thanks for the P.M. C....
Let me elaborate.
When I found the notes, I did not know what they were. I found PAGES of "Are you a victim of male domestic violence" and "Male abuse" on top.

I was stunned.

(My husband used that I was "emotionally abusive" to justify his EA with his co-worker. Well, "neglectful." anyway. Well, he did at one point, anyway, until MC basically called "bullsh*t" on his allegations...

Over time, I have had multiple opportunities to view his readings and info given to him- and the like before. Never have gone there, cause I would just get frustraited and I knew it.

I saw these pages and I wondered why they were kept, why he felt the need to hide them... Why, if he was so remorceful, would he be printing these things off.


----------



## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Doc,

To be honest, once you found the notes and realized they were his, you should have stopped reading them

Granted, there may still be issues and the best I could suggest is that you tell him you came across them, read them and they upset you because of A, B and C

Ask his forgiveness for reading them and then ask if the two of you can again get joint counseling (if you're both willing) and agree that you won't stop looking for a counselor until you find one both of you can agree on


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Nothing wrong with storing this information in the back of your mind. But if you intend to continue using this to judge him you should forget you ever saw it.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Thanks for replies. At a loss, ya it was wrong to snoop, I guess. I doubt ill beg his forgiveness.
We have tried counselors.

Feel like I'm backstabbed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

I'm a big snoop myself so I know what you're feeling. You can't believe what I've found and to this day I have never mentioned a word about any of it. I think you'll find yourself better off for the knowing but you have to resolve not to allow yourself to take any action on what you have seen.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

How did you learn not to let this info affect you? That would be a skill I'd love to have.
We spoke about it, I guess I am way better about disconnecting the emotional hose to this type of stuff...I just told him what I found, why I feel so backstabbed.

Basically, he said " that's too bad. ". Our communication system is at ground zero. We need to break habits.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Trent;

I had no idea he was in the ballpark of considering himself "abused". 

He sometimes has a tendency to feel sorry for himeself, (in other aspects of his life- for example feels his family takes advantage of him), but to make these claims is mindbending....

I do not want to live with someone who, after all these years, instead of gratitude, does this type of thing. I am a confident woman with many talents and gifts, and I freely give/gave of myself and my time to my family.

I like it. My family ranks in the top of my priorities. Always has.

I ran the household 24/7 for 20 years because he was working...
I did not resent him, I did not call him out on it.

Yes, I am strong, and I have called him names in the past (he said I would say "don't be a fool" or "jerK" about once every 4 - 6 weeks.
But I find that hardly a "male abuser."

I suspect that his counselor (who primarily works with alcohol, sexual and food abusers) may add to his victim feelings. She seems to have every excuse for HIS past behaviors, 
She told me the one time I met with her, that his anger and dating site trolling was an INDICATION there was a problem with the marriage.. I thought it was a problem with HIS boundaries....

silly me.....


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

I guess I am healthier person now, because this information did not send me into a anxiety attack fueled tizzy.. (a few years ago- wow).

I do feel it is unfortunate that I found them, and worse yet that I read them... beleive me, I was not looking. Just when that "male domestic abuser" webpage screaming that headline popped out, I just could not help myself.

He says the handouts came from her (his IC) and it was a topic they covered in one session.

I simply do not know if I believe this. He has stated many times that he never wanted to end the marriage. If that is so, why is he discussing this in his IC? I mean, why change your story?
What good is counseling if you are dishonest?

So to find these type of publications (the website print outs) is disturbing.

I have an appointment with out "old" counselor. She has seen us both dozens of times. It will be interesting to get her take on this...


----------



## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

wow. I am going to say there is a good chance that the things your H feels and thought then about you might just be a bit true. You sound very sure that you are none of these things that his counselor said you are........REALLY????
No I am sorry! You sound very codependent as all you talk about is him him him and it sounds like you want to control his thoughts, feeling, and IC. That is not healthy at all.
IC is personal and anything he is working on in that is not your business. Really none of it is for you. How can he have a safe experience and grow and come to terms with what is what if you are into his things, disagreeing with all of his IC advise and so forth.
You can not control what happens in his IC and it sound like you are so afraid to actually be seen as "the bad guy" . I would get your self into IC as it sounds like you have the basic codependent signs and I am just reading your post.
I know that is going to upset you but really you might want to consider that you do not know everything. Abuser can abuse with out knowledge that they are doing so and with out intent. It is more then physical there are other ways to do this. 
One question is if your H has not drug addiction issues then why is he with an IC that specializes with that area of counseling?

Anytime you are more focused on him you are not working on you. So in your own IC you might want to realize it is about you.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

She accepted our insurance and was close to his office.

No. Have had more than one counslor, who worked with us both, say they did not see evidence of this.
I will trust that advice.

I don't really know, nor ask what they talk about. I did not even know he was still a patient until a glitch came up in insurance billing.
I called her old office to re submitt, and she left there, and by the way they talked about her - obviously not on very good terms.

Her old center refused to acknowledge she worked there, even in the past, and said they did not know her- nor where she was now- not even in the state....so I had to ask my H about taking care of the insurance.

It was rather odd, but this is how I found out he still saw her.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

P.S.
What codependant signs are you seeing?


----------



## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

well your dislike of her is apparent and if colleges of her's are not speaking of her in good terms it is possible that there is a bad apple. 
I still stand by my thoughts that you are obsessive about his thoughts and actions while in his IC. 
The fact that you are going to go into your own IC with wanting to talk about him is a bit disturbing. You should be discovering you and how you are making things a problem in your marriage. Is that not the point of paying all this money out.
Your H eventually will see that this person is not going to help him. Perhaps he is still seeing her to spite your attempts to control his IC . Who knows. I am just suggesting that you pull the focus off of him and get to work on you so that you can start to have the relationship with your H that you want.


----------



## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Doc Holiday, you come across like a clanging Gong! You'd drive me nuts with your pettiness, and abusive behavior. I suspect your marraige has turned to bitterness, and once it gets to that level....youi know.


----------



## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

DocHoliday said:


> P.S.
> What codependant signs are you seeing?


I see that you are obsessed with what he is doing. You want to control the whole situation regarding his IC, thoughts, feeling, and so forth. The focus is so much on him and the problem there that there is very little on your self. You are avoiding the fact that there actually might be a problem with you.

You clearly do not see reading his personal papers as a boundaries issue and you feel no apology is necessary. There has to be boundaries to have a healthy relationship.

You feel like you need to do something about him and this poor counselor. Instead of seeing what you can do about you.
You blame this counselor for the thoughts and feelings that your H has had in regards to you. I could go on.

I am not saying you are full blown over the deep end codependent but you are getting there and it is a progressive thing and each person suffers it in a different way.

I guess I just think that it is sad that you are in denial that these things you discovered that your h felt and thought are something you are not considering as even being real because he felt and thought them you should be willing to look into that instead of blaming and being offended. I would be all over my self if my H expressed that I was some how hurting him. I would take a great long look at my self.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

DocHoliday said:


> Trent;
> 
> I had no idea he was in the ballpark of considering himself "abused".
> 
> ...


Are you willing to divorce him?

I don't feel your reactions are necessarily wrong or that your expectations are extreme but obviously communication between the two of you has broken down.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

WW; WT*?
Kuro; Fair enough.
Trent; No, over this incident at this time, I am not willing to divorce him..


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Trent;
Do you mean over this/now or over all?

I was raised Catholic. By and large, divorce was not an option, or not considered.

I also lost a lot of my family due to illness at a young age. We learned to stick together, no matter the cost.

Both good and bad thing, I guess.


----------



## Married&Confused (Jan 19, 2011)

my wife has hit me. i discussed it with my therapist and she gave me handouts on abuse, alcoholism (because my wife was drunk at the time) and depression. it wasn't because she believe that my wife was an abuser, drunk or depressed but wanted my to watch for those signs. could be the same with your husband.

and dr. phil handouts? really. he should find someone more in line with marriage counseling and not substance abuse.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Married&Confused said:


> my wife has hit me. i discussed it with my therapist and she gave me handouts on abuse, alcoholism (because my wife was drunk at the time) and depression. it wasn't because she believe that my wife was an abuser, drunk or depressed but wanted my to watch for those signs. could be the same with your husband.
> 
> and dr. phil handouts? really. he should find someone more in line with marriage counseling and not substance abuse.


Don't get me started on Dr. Phil. I have etried to watch his show a few times. He panders to the audience sympathies, drives me nuts. I think he is a doofus.

Imagine my thrill when I find Dr. Phil handouts. No one in life can take a 10 question true/false quiz and decide on marriage based on those.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

I am ready for a break from all this "counseling". I am just fed up.

Part of me just does not give a rats patoot anymore. Maybe take a few months off. 

I feel he has been and is dishonest. MC says she can see how I feel this, and this is going to be, yet another trust issue to overcome.for both of us.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

He knows how I feel. He just says "our perspecives are not the same."
I find fighting about the details pointless, so I am trying to forget them.

I am left with an overwhelming sense that he is very dishonest-
that lowers his integrity.

I can forget, but I can't change that.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

Dr. Phil is a joke no doubt. The definition of abuse has really gotten out of control these days (example- no sex = abuse :scratchhead, but what strikes me the most is your defensiveness. I have never hit a women but I have been hit by one. She was bat-****e crazy and we were troubled teens. For a women to think she can hit a man and not worry about getting hit back shows that she has some violent tendancies and lacks emotional control. If you were a man you would be harshly labeled by most women as an abuser with no sympathy given. You may not be a horrible person for what you did or how you treated your husband but I don't think your willing to take responsibilty for your behavior toward your husband. It's in your tone and the way you use words. It comes across as "aggressive."

Peace


----------



## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> Dr. Phil is a joke no doubt. The definition of abuse has really gotten out of control these days (example- no sex = abuse :scratchhead, but what strikes me the most is your defensiveness. I have never hit a women but I have been hit by one. She was bat-****e crazy and we were troubled teens. For a women to think she can hit a man and not worry about getting hit back shows that she has some violent tendancies and lacks emotional control. If you were a man you would be harshly labeled by most women as an abuser with no sympathy given. You may not be a horrible person for what you did or how you treated your husband but I don't think your willing to take responsibilty for your behavior toward your husband. It's in your tone and the way you use words. It comes across as "aggressive."
> 
> Peace


No sex is infact emotional abuse. But only those that have experienced good sex, orgasms, and the closeness can understand this.

I'm not talking about medical reasons for not offering sex to loving spouse either.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

Well, judge me how you'd like, I was just trying to be honest and truthful. As far as feeling defensive, yeah. I guess I probably am. I paid dearly for the event, and because I refused to speak - I got double hozed.

I am not here to tell tales on my spouse, and to be true after seven whole years I do not remember all the finite details of one evening. 

My concern is that, four years later, one thing was being said in MC, and apparently completely another in his IC. 

Let me tell you, he has left his papers and books out before, I have paid them no mind. (Dr. Phil handouts are like repugnant to me. I avoid them like poison.)

I was not intending to snoop, but with the content of the top page, I did. If his IC gave him the info "just incase", why would he leave it on his dresser, under clothes?

He has to know the trigger this type of stuff would be, I'd burn or eat any notes that might re-trigger him -- at least not place them in the bedroom.....

Deciet and dishonesty are huge triggers for me, and this paperwork tended to discredit what he was saying to my face (in MC)

I see everyones point, and it made me look differently at the situation. I did discuss these items with MC, she understood exactly what my concerns were/are. 

I have decided to take the path of trying to look past this, (situation of dishonesty) and focus on behaviors now.

We have terrible communication, and I am afraid this will be a roadblock to fixing any issue, If I dwell on it.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

WalterWhite said:


> No sex is infact emotional abuse. But only those that have experienced good sex, orgasms, and the closeness can understand this.
> 
> I'm not talking about medical reasons for not offering sex to loving spouse either.



I respectfully disagree. If that was the case then most of the wives in America are guilty of abuse. The person not getting sex has the power to leave and find it elsewhere. You can't force someone to be close to you or provide you an orgasm. They have to want to have sex with you in the first place and there can be a million reasonable reasons why they don't. Funny, if a wife doesn't provide sex to her huband it's his fault but if he doesn't its abuse.


----------



## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

DocHoliday said:


> Well, judge me how you'd like, I was just trying to be honest and truthful. As far as feeling defensive, yeah. I guess I probably am. I paid dearly for the event, and because I refused to speak - I got double hozed.
> 
> I am not here to tell tales on my spouse, and to be true after seven whole years I do not remember all the finite details of one evening.
> 
> ...



No offense intended. I simply recognized the behavior because I've done it myself. I also have terrible communication with my wife but she's the one who won't talk. I have trust issues from childhood abandoment and my wife was verbally and physically abused by her alchololic parents. She keeps everthing bottled up and is afraid to confront. So it looks like we have a similar situation but with role reversal. My wife will probably never show me her true feelings and I have resorted to snooping as well. What I learned did not help because it made me see that she often lies to me which really hurts. I try not to sweat the small stuff but its hard to live with someone who is afraid to live. 

Peace


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

That was very good advice, Trent.

We are taking a hiatus from the "regular" MC. I have signed up for an IMAGO session (Only 2.5 hours) I don't know a lot about this, but it has gotten some positive reviews here on TAM.


The crazy thing is just that we "work just enough" to keep going.
Some weeks, months are just fine- and I mean by that good life.

Others are horrible. I think the MC sessions disintegrated because it only triggered blame, and no one likes to sit around with egg on their faces......


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

hmmmm :\


----------



## mel123 (Aug 4, 2012)

So he is deceptive,one of the main reasons people lie is fear. You may not see yourself as a bully but he does , that's what his emotions are telling him. True or not, that is what he feels.


----------



## DocHoliday (Jan 19, 2012)

By way of explaining his deceptions, he has stated many times that "He does not like (or want to) to look bad." 
He also is conflict avoidant. He admits that he always has had tendencies to do this.

He has problems dealing with his family, they tended to play favorites, and he has resentment about this.. his younger sister is kind of a screw up- but mom and dad have shoveled tens of thousands her way-- and he got his college fund recinded because he was dating a Catholic girl (and they could not see him being happy with a Catholic.)

So, I see to this day he thinks way to much about the inequity -- most of it was 20 years ago .. he has a hard time admitting that he does it.

Where I on the other hand, was raised in a larger family that there was no particular favoritism that I noticed. So I don't have that perspective. 

So he decieves, and the exact oposite of this is me, who will say what I think.
-- if it is going to gain me popularuty points or not.

Does not mean that I am rude about it. maybe blunt...

He says he is working on this (honesty) in his IC, -- but I don't want a victim for a spouse, nor be his designated "abuser". I was raised that feeling sorry for yourself (in excess) was a negative thing.
So you, chin up and soldier on....

Maybe I am over stating this, this is not a glaring issue that flares up every day, I just have a hair trigger for "victim speak" from him.

but I could be less opinionated, I'm sure.


----------



## mel123 (Aug 4, 2012)

Doc........I can see why you are frustrated with the "victim speak" and dishonesty since you explained it.

My wife tells me, (what she thinks), I want to hear true or untrue....to avoid any kind of conflict. GRRRRR


----------

