# Wife hinted at an Open relationship



## rustybrain

Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex. We worked through that and all appeared to be fine. So 4 years on, when everything is calm and fine she blurts out that she isn't opposed to an open relationship. I was surprised. Now for me this is a big deal. I fought once for my marriage, left my pride aside and put the kids first. But now this? She says after seeing my reaction that while isn't opposed to an open relationship she would never act on this or hurt me. I am against this 100% and this is deal breaker for me. After fighting for my marriage, I now find myself contemplating divorce. I simple don't want the drama of a open relationship and have no fight left. She said she was just being honest and I have nothing to worry about. But I feel like she is planning something or has designs on someone else. She also got drunk recently and said that having sex behind someone's back is not cheating if it is meaningless. I put this down to drink talk and she said she talks crap when drunk afterwards. She doesn't get drunk often. Once at year at most. So am I over reacting? I don't want to be married to someone who wants an open relationship. I fought already for my marriage and played my part in keeping the family together. We are just back from a holiday of a lifetime. It was great and she said it was her best holiday ever. So what is going on?? Am I paranoid because of her past??? Or am I correct??


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## Marc878

You are correct. Big red flags on this. Check your phone bill online.

First and easy check. Look for a lot of calls/texts to a specific number. In and done in 30 minutes tops.

Hope it's nothing but......


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## EllisRedding

How is everything else in your marriage? 

Assuming she hasn't cheated on you yet (at a minimum she had plans on based on the fact you caught her with the FB drama), the fact that she would even hint at an open marriage is not only inconsiderate, but seems like she is trying to set the table for something else...

I think my big problem, I could not be with someone who did not share the same values as me, especially on some big topics such as sex and marriage. Her ideas of open marriages and cheating seems to go against what you believe in, and that could be dangerous.


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## eric1

You are right to consider this a red flag.

This is totally spitballing but 95% of proposed open relationships occur after period of monogamy because that partner already has someone, or has designs on someone in particular. Since this wouldn't be her first affair I would consider that this is a red flag that you need to act on rather decisively.

"I am not for an open relationship, I never will be and any sort of infidelity - emotional or physical - are unconditionally deal-breakers for me. Given that I've still not fully regained my trust from your last affair I'm just letting you know that I would be more comfortable if I could take a look at your phone to see for myself."

You will not even have to look at her phone, her face will tell you everything that you need to know.


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## Kivlor

rustybrain said:


> Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex. We worked through that and all appeared to be fine. So 4 years on, when everything is calm and fine she blurts out that she isn't opposed to an open relationship. I was surprised. Now for me this is a big deal. I fought once for my marriage, left my pride aside and put the kids first. But now this? She says after seeing my reaction that while isn't opposed to an open relationship she would never act on this or hurt me. I am against this 100% and this is deal breaker for me. After fighting for my marriage, I now find myself contemplating divorce. I simple don't want the drama of a open relationship and have no fight left. She said she was just being honest and I have nothing to worry about. But I feel like she is planning something or has designs on someone else. She also got drunk recently and said that having sex behind someone's back is not cheating if it is meaningless. I put this down to drink talk and she said she talks crap when drunk afterwards. She doesn't get drunk often. Once at year at most. So am I over reacting? I don't want to be married to someone who wants an open relationship. I fought already for my marriage and played my part in keeping the family together. We are just back from a holiday of a lifetime. It was great and she said it was her best holiday ever. So what is going on?? Am I paranoid because of her past??? Or am I correct??














What did you say when she told you she's interested in an open marriage?

What did you say when she said that sleeping with other people isn't cheating, even if your spouse doesn't know you're doing it?


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## rustybrain

Hmmm. I am against divorce, but there is only so much I can put up with. She is very smart and has learned from the past that Internet activity can get you caught. So I checked her cell phone and found nothing suspicious. Of course she just has to delete recent activity and incoming or out going call history. She definitely would have the know how to do these basic things. Red flags maybe, but why would she bother tell she isn't opposed to an open relationship? She says she is anti divorce and loves me. That she would only ever engage in an open relationship with my consent and was been honest. But your right, it is suspicious.


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## rustybrain

I told her I was against open relationships


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## eric1

rustybrain said:


> Hmmm. I am against divorce, but there is only so much I can put up with. She is very smart and has learned from the past that Internet activity can get you caught. So I checked her cell phone and found nothing suspicious. Of course she just has to delete recent activity and incoming or out going call history. She definitely would have the know how to do these basic things. Red flags maybe, but why would she bother tell she isn't opposed to an open relationship? She says she is anti divorce and loves me. That she would only ever engage in an open relationship with my consent and was been honest. But your right, it is suspicious.


Take a recent cell phone bill and reconcile it with what is on her phone. If anything doesn't match up then that means she is deleting things, which at that point you would Dr Fone recover deleted texts.

Also on her phone there are also ways to carry on an affair without it showing up on a phone bill. It's not just communcations apps like WhatsApp, Kik, Instagran, Twitter DMs, Facebook, Snapchat, etc but apps that have the ability to chat but that's not theit core feature. Stuff like Trivia Crack, Clash of Clans, etc. Hell I even know of a cheater wife whose affair partner setup a private Minecraft server so that they could communicate. Her husband never even had a red flag even kind of raised, he just saw his wife playing stupid Minecraft.


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## Marduk

She's been cheating on you for some time, probably with a bunch of different guys.

That would be my assumption from that point forward. Shut your mouth, open your eyes, dig in deep into email, Facebook, phone, anything you can get your hands on.

Next time she's on a Girls Night Out, swing by where she says she is without having her realize that you've done that.


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## jorgegene

rustybrain said:


> Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex. We worked through that and all appeared to be fine. So 4 years on, when everything is calm and fine she blurts out that she isn't opposed to an open relationship. I was surprised. Now for me this is a big deal. I fought once for my marriage, left my pride aside and put the kids first. But now this? She says after seeing my reaction that while isn't opposed to an open relationship she would never act on this or hurt me. I am against this 100% and this is deal breaker for me. After fighting for my marriage, I now find myself contemplating divorce. I simple don't want the drama of a open relationship and have no fight left. She said she was just being honest and I have nothing to worry about. But I feel like she is planning something or has designs on someone else. She also got drunk recently and *said that having sex behind someone's back is not cheating if it is meaningless*. I put this down to drink talk and she said she talks crap when drunk afterwards. She doesn't get drunk often. Once at year at most. So am I over reacting? I don't want to be married to someone who wants an open relationship. I fought already for my marriage and played my part in keeping the family together. We are just back from a holiday of a lifetime. It was great and she said it was her best holiday ever. So what is going on?? Am I paranoid because of her past??? Or am I correct??


that's a new one on me. so if i steal something, don't get caught and consider it meaningless, then it's not stealing. right?

btw i realize she was drunk and we all say stupid stuff when we're drunk; but the stupid stuff we say is usually what we actually think without any inhibitions or filters.


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## SunCMars

The itch returns. Time for a new bottle of Calamine lotion. Apply it to her scent gland.

This is your wife, listen to her words. 

The second salvo hint has been fired over your bow....brow!


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## Dycedarg

You don't need to go hunting for evidence. She's cheated on you. 

Even if she hasn't, you have lost her. She wants to do her thing, and since she is incapable of understanding how destructive such behavior is, and the price one pays for it, she is becoming less and less inhibited. 

It's basically just a matter of time before she leaves you. 

I'm sorry. Yours is an awful situation.


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## rustybrain

Oh, here we go again. So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


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## convert

sometimes maybe even usually when one spouse suggests an open marriage there is designs on another person already.
keep your eyes open


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## Lostinthought61

In vino veritas


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## ABHale

She would have never brought it up if was not already cheating or getting ready to..... Would be a deal breaker for me to.... Sorry man...


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## convert

rustybrain said:


> Oh, here we go again. So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


just be vigilant.
you said yourself in your original post that you know when people talk about open marriage that they have someone in mind already, which usually means an EA is already in progress. 
just watch out.


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## eric1

rustybrain said:


> Oh, here we go again. So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


Keep divorce or reconciliation out of your mind now. You need to:

1. Work with her to understand how the hell she could even recommend this given her past infidelity

2. Go into "trust but verify" mode. Yes, you can call this spying. But it's what you unfortunately need to do.


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Oh, here we go again. So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


Let me ask you a few questions. 

If she was cheating, would you want to know?

If she is, would you want to leave her or reconcile?

If she told you that she wanted to have sex with other men, could you hear the truth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

eric1 said:


> Keep divorce or reconciliation out of your mind now. You need to:
> 
> 1. Work with her to understand how the hell she could even recommend this given her past infidelity
> 
> 2. Go into "trust but verify" mode. Yes, you can call this spying. But it's what you unfortunately need to do.


I missed that she's cheated before. 

Divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kivlor

rustybrain said:


> I told her I was against open relationships


She's probably cheating rusty, but the only way to know is to do some digging. The easiest and fastest method is to check the phone records from the phone company. You can see who she's been calling on paper.

What was her response to you telling her you're not okay with that?

What did you say to her about the cheating comment?


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## Happilymarried25

Tell her you will not be in an open marriage and if that is what she wants then you will be divorcing her. Meanwhile keep checking her phone and computer.


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## ConanHub

She is a remorseless cheater.

Divorce or learn to enjoy her slvttiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

Just spoke with the wife. Told her if she wants an open relationship I will divorce. She says she is telling the truth. That it was a suggestion only. One she has not acted on or will not. She says she understand my concern but thought we were getting on so well that any topic could be discussed. She doesn't appear to be lying. Last time I could spot the lies in her voice and body language. Maybe she has learned to lie. I am confused.


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## Kivlor

A little more contemplation, and I've got more questions... How many kids? How old are they? 

Who did you tell about your W's previous affair? 

Have you told anyone about these current issues?

Your wife has told you what she wants. She has also told you that she doesn't view sleeping with other men as cheating, so long as she doesn't get caught and "it's just sex". My gut instinct here is that you should do the following:

1. Get Divorce papers.
2. Sit W down and say: Wife, when I got married I had no intention of sharing my W with someone else. I still have no intention of sharing my wife with someone else. Your previous infidelity, coupled with these comments has really driven home for me that you have no intention of being faithful, and that there is no way for me to trust you to be such. I'm going to release you, so you can go find these other men you want to be with.
3. Hand her the D papers and tell her that it would be best that she move out as soon as possible because you don't want your kids around that kind of behavior.
4. Call her parents and explain the situation. Tell them you'll make sure they still have contact with their grand-kids and that you love them very much, but that you just won't share your W with other men, and that's what she wants to be happy.
5. Call her siblings and tell them the same.
6. Call your parents and siblings and tell them.
7. If your kids are old enough, sit them down and explain exactly what is going on, that their dad won't tolerate that because he has self-respect, and that you love them and everything will work out.


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Just spoke with the wife. Told her if she wants an open relationship I will divorce. She says she is telling the truth. That it was a suggestion only. One she has not acted on or will not. She says she understand my concern but thought we were getting on so well that any topic could be discussed. She doesn't appear to be lying. Last time I could spot the lies in her voice and body language. Maybe she has learned to lie. I am confused.


"Wife, I'm concerned based on all the pain I've had to go through before to stay married to you that either I'm just not enough for you, or you're just not monogamous. I think we need to call a spade a spade and walk away from each other -- that way you can have sex with as many other people as you want, and I can find a woman for whom I'm enough."

And then shut your mouth and start the separation process. If she wants to try to convince you otherwise, she can, and you can listen if you want...

But I'm guessing she isn't going to try very hard.

Just like I'm guessing you already know she never actually stopped screwing around on you, or at least stopped wanting to.


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## rustybrain

kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


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## Lostinthought61

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


if someone says to you that they is fine and happy with the relationship then why bring up an open relationship, that only happens if that someone is looking to get something that aren't getting today....she is not happy with the relationship


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## Kivlor

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


Think on this for a minute:

Why did she state that she's open to an "open marriage" when she already knew you weren't okay with the previous cheating? Did you send some sort of signals that could have been interpreted to mean you'd be okay with that before she said something?

If the answer is no, you didn't signal, then she is almost certainly signalling to you what she wants: To sleep with other men. If the answer is yes, then you should chalk it up to a mistake on your part.

What about the cheating comment? What brought that on? Why did she even feel the need to tell you that it's not cheating if it's just sex and you don't get caught? Unless you were having a philosophical discussion about what is and isn't cheating, I can't really fathom a reason for this... Not to be mean, but your wife needs a new moral compass if that's how she views infidelity. Or at least she needs to find a husband whose moral compass is aligned to hers.

Her previous behavior serves as a warning of what she is capable of. You would be foolish to disregard it in relation to what she's doing today.

Also, who all knows about your W's previous infidelity? Her parents? Yours?


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


Bull**** man. 

Something I learned the hard way long ago -- people have a habit of telling the uncomfortable truth when drunk, not make **** up.

Besides... Why would she ask you for an open marriage if she didn't want to have sex with someone else?

People always tell you who they are. You just need to pay attention when they do.

Do you want to have to look over your shoulder forever?

At the very least, just ask her this one question:

"Why should I believe you?"


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## MachoMcCoy

Take their advice with a grain of salt. It's ALWAYS "SHE'S CHEATING! VARS, KEYLOGGERS, PI'S!!!" Read some threads. You'll see what I mean. 

Consider the alternative that she has not cheated on you yet (with this NEW itch of hers). Is it a problem? Yes. Does she really want to get some strange? Yes. Is that a divorceable offense? Without a doubt. Does she already have someone in mind? Maybe.

But what if it is purely fantasy at this point? You go all James bond for 6 months before you find nothing and realize it was all just fantasy 6 months ago. When you could have done something about it. But NOW you're seeing the evidence. Why? Because you ignored the problem. Whatever it is that is pushing her to others. Whatever it was got even worse as you pulled away further, just so you could "catch" her. 

Yes, you have a problem. But don't think it's not there just because you finally give her security clearance after 6 months of spying. By the time you're done with that process, she's even further away.


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## MachoMcCoy

Kivlor said:


> 1. Get Divorce papers.
> 2. Sit W down and say: Wife, when I got married I had no intention of sharing my W with someone else. I still have no intention of sharing my wife with someone else. Your previous infidelity, coupled with these comments has really driven home for me that you have no intention of being faithful, and that there is no way for me to trust you to be such. I'm going to release you, so you can go find these other men you want to be with.
> 3. Hand her the D papers and tell her that it would be best that she move out as soon as possible because you don't want your kids around that kind of behavior.
> 4. Call her parents and explain the situation. Tell them you'll make sure they still have contact with their grand-kids and that you love them very much, but that you just won't share your W with other men, and that's what she wants to be happy.
> 5. Call her siblings and tell them the same.
> 6. Call your parents and siblings and tell them.
> 7. If your kids are old enough, sit them down and explain exactly what is going on, that their dad won't tolerate that because he has self-respect, and that you love them and everything will work out.


Because she verbalized a fantasy?

Please do not do ANY of this.


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## Marduk

MachoMcCoy said:


> Take their advice with a grain of salt. It's ALWAYS "SHE'S CHEATING! VARS, KEYLOGGERS, PI'S!!!" Read some threads. You'll see what I mean.
> 
> Consider the alternative that she has not cheated on you yet (with this NEW itch of hers). Is it a problem? Yes. Does she really want to get some strange? Yes. Is that a divorceable offense? Without a doubt. Does she already have someone in mind? Maybe.
> 
> But what if it is purely fantasy at this point? You go all James bond for 6 months before you find nothing and realize it was all just fantasy 6 months ago. When you could have done something about it. But NOW you're seeing the evidence. Why? Because you ignored the problem. Whatever it is that is pushing her to others. Whatever it was got even worse as you pulled away further, just so you could "catch" her.
> 
> Yes, you have a problem. But don't think it's not there just because you finally give her security clearance after 6 months of spying. By the time you're done with that process, she's even further away.


I would have said the same.

Except she's cheated on him before, and admitted that if she had a drunken sex fling, that wouldn't count as cheating.

And then asked for an open marriage.

If she still struggles with staying out of other men's beds after being caught cheating... Time for a different wife.


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## GusPolinski

/yawn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

MachoMcCoy said:


> Because she verbalized a fantasy?
> 
> Please do not do ANY of this.


 @jld is that you?


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## MachoMcCoy

marduk said:


> I would have said the same.
> 
> Except she's cheated on him before, and admitted that if she had a drunken sex fling, that wouldn't count as cheating.
> 
> And then asked for an open marriage.
> 
> If she still struggles with staying out of other men's beds after being caught cheating... Time for a different wife.


You're right. Concrete proof. I stand corrected. There is ZERO doubt she is already sleeping with someone. Please ignore everything I've said so far.

Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.


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## MachoMcCoy

marduk said:


> @jld is that you?


no


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## SunCMars

Xenote said:


> In vino veritas


comperio concilio castitas


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## Kivlor

MachoMcCoy said:


> Because she verbalized a fantasy?
> 
> Please do not do ANY of this.


Except this isn't a mere fantasy Macho. She's already been unfaithful, according to OP. The Open Marriage comment could be argued about, but his wife has told him she doesn't think that it is cheating to sleep with other men so long as the OP doesn't know about it. 

If I were the OP, I'd weigh very heavily whether or not I want to spend the rest of my days with a W who not only wants to be with other men instead of me, but who _*thinks there is no moral issue in doing so behind my back*_. It's that last part that makes this serious, not the fantasy part.


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## eric1

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


Then simply take my advice and ask her to reassure you by letting you look through her phone. Given her past infidelity it would be more than reasonable for a truly remorseful wife to do that without flinching.

You won't even need to look at it. Just watch her face. It'll tell you everything. The truth is ALWAYS on the mobile. Even if she is diligent deleting stuff, she'll have that moment of doubt.


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## SunCMars

Quote Lord Marduk, Master of all that is Babylon:

If she still struggles with staying out of other men's beds after being caught cheating... Time for a different wife. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is concise, nay tis Poyg-Nant!



Sorry, the fantasies that are Yesterdays Realities scratch and bleed when they pass out of my colon and see the light of day....God, I am a Poet.....nah, Pudz....................... [Google pudz]!


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## TAMAT

RustyBrain,

What did she do to compensate you when she had her last affair. Did she?

Reveal the name of the other person

Take a polygraph, typically alot less than actually happened is admitted to

Expose the OM to his W 

Give you a time line of the last affair

Allow you to see the communications with the other person

Sadly my reading here is that while you are the father of her children, a provider, someone she can rely upon, she wants someone else in the role of lover.

Tamat


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## TAMAT

RustyBrain,

I'm not saying you should get a divorce, but have you done all you can do and more importantly has SHE DONE ALL SHE CAN DO?

Tamat


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## Hope1964

rustybrain said:


> Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex.


I got this far.

Guaranteed she has already had sex with someone else. GUARANTEED.

Kick her a$$ to the curb.


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## TAMAT

RustyBrain,

I have to agree with the other posters your W has already had sex with someone and is trying to retroactively get your approval for what she did.

I think your W telling you she did not do anything is a qualified statement, add on "within the last 3 months" or "with anyone who I felt an emotional attachment to" or "I had sex with the original OM but that no longer counts" or etc.

It's very lonely when you are at home with the kids and your W is out on the town or with someone else.

Tamat


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## Evinrude58

I feel in light of the previous posters comments, that this is just a fantasy. She is receiving undue scrutiny due to her past affair that you likely made her vulnerable for by your insecure behavior.
Hence, her "polarizing" comment. She's exactly right! You're already looking in her phone!

Now, she feels untrustworthy and you are just pushing her away further. Where did you guys go on vacation?
Could you have taken her to a nicer place to vacation? Were you in good shape? Could she take a stroll down the beach with you and feel young and exciting? Or do you have a slight pot belly and farmer's tan? How were your nose hairs? Have you been doing your crunches?
Are you doing nice things for her and making her feel safe? You know your insecure behavior makes her feel unsafe..... like you could leave at any second.

She was feeling so close to you, that she felt she could tell you anything.... That's a good thing! She's just fantasizing.... You should be asking her how you could participate in such a fantasy. Would she like to include another man in lovemaking? Would she like you to watch her make love to another man? 
Are you so freaking selfish that you couldn't allow her a little "meaningless sex"??? You're just not seeking to satisfy her needs, and she will walk away from your marriage. Everyone needs a little spice in their marriage, after all.

Now as to the comment about it not being cheating if it's just meaningless drunken sex.......
Of course it's not cheating. If it's not emotional, it's not really cheating. And the herpes sores you get on your penis from having sex with her is not really herpes, it's just an optical illusion. Sure, the sores hurt a little, but they probably were from one of the meaningless guys-- not an actual affair partner. You feel better, now, right?

Now, you march right in that house after work and tell your wife that you are willing to support her in whatever she desires. You are not so insecure and selfish that you won't allow her happiness.
Heck, let her have the whole place for her to use with her new man toy while you keep the kids. Also, consider keeping the house and letting her provide herself with a nice comfy apartment and a nice comfy 40 or more hours a week job-- for her. There's all kinds of manly co-workers she could be scheduling meaningless sex with at a 40hr a week job! You'd be helping her.

Because you, my friend, are getting a divorce and finding a woman that loves and appreciates YOU. And the new woman you find will wrestle bears and bite sharks on the ass to keep you all to herself.
And you will have not been selfish and will have been totally supportive of your rotten, cheating, ****ty, EX-wife. Just support her right on out the door. Because you don't have to tolerate Bull SH**.


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## straightshooter

As the others have told you already, the odds are pretty high that either your wife has had sex already with another man, and it is high up on her bucket list and she is exploring the best way to go about it on the Internet.
You have two choices. Either to ignore the huge red flag in front of you, or accept it. Sounds like you chose the latter option.
And by the way, you telling her you are not interested is not the end of the story and means nothing. 
First a couple of questions. I may have missed something
(1) when she brought this up to you drunk, was she just returning from a GNO ( girls night out) or trip away from you. If the answer to that one is yes, she probably did it that night before she got home.
(2) are there any other red flags ( sexier clothes, overdressed for where she says she is going, new "grooming habits", taking longer than expected shopping or at gym, etc.???

I am a BH who caught my wife on ****** ******* when I found two books on open marriage in her car trunk. So I got the whole sales pitch and here is the playbook of advice she will get if she has investigated this on her own before blurting it out to you
(1) try to drop hints just like your wife did. If you shut it down immediately, wait a little and them bring it up again in a less threatening manner. Could be as simple as getting you to watch a TV program or read an article
(2) taking you to a social event sponsored by some non monogamy group under the guise as date night
(3) telling you she needs space to explore her sexuality ( big one for women in their 40's)
(4) she might offer you books to read. Two of the most read are
"More Than Two"
"Opening Up"
If you read them like I did , which was stupid, you will get nauseous reading what is in store for you.

Women who either ARE cheating or ARE in some EA online often DISCOVER open marriage or polyamory in order to delude themselves into thinking they are not being unfaithful for their own conscience ( sound familiar). The bull **** about a drunken ONS is her initial attempt at that. He saying it is no big deal already justifies that if she did it it was really not something you should go nuts about. Same thing in play when she tells you she is having sex with another man. She is being honest, right????

If you go to a polyamory website, you will find it inhabited by overwhelmingly women who have talked co dependent men into accepting this lifestyle. And understand that ANY form of non monogamy is totally controlled by women and the books I just mentioned will tell you that. If you let this progress in her mind, the genie is hard to put back in the bottle

So, understand, your saying you are not interested only puts this on hold. It is on her mind and now you have to dig and find out exactly where is this process she really is.

If I were you I would immediately
(1) get a VAR in her car to find out if she is already involved with someone. You will find that out very quickly. SWomen usually do not keep this totally secret from girlfriends or she may be already talking to some other man or men
(2) put a GPS on her car ( do not tell her you are doing this or #1)
(3) do as you were told and get copies of your phone bills
(4) think about who her friends are and what their relationships are with their spouses. In my case, my wife had befriended a few peolple at a volunteer group she joined who were open marriage folks. They "sold" her on how great it could be.
(5) no more girls night out or trips until you sort this out

And I would not keep telling her you are going to divorce her. That is a threat you are not totally prepared to carry out YET , so do not put lines in the sand until you are prepared to follow through or she will have no fear of any consequences. I would meet with an attorney.

The more you threaten her, the more underground she will go if she has acted or is close to it. IT IS ON HER MND!! No mistake about that one.

I hope to hell you do not sit there and hope this is going away. Just about all the other folks who replied to you have agreed on this being a big time red flag. It's up to you to find out how big time.

Good luck


----------



## Kivlor

straightshooter said:


> And I would not keep telling her you are going to divorce her. That is a threat you are not totally prepared to carry out YET , so do not put lines in the sand until you are prepared to follow through or she will have no fear of any consequences. I would meet with an attorney.
> 
> The more you threaten her, the more underground she will go if she has acted or is close to it. IT IS ON HER MND!! No mistake about that one.


I agree with this. You should never threaten. A _single_ warning should always be enough. After that, you keep your word. 

You can't use the D like a cudgel every time you think your W is getting out of line. D is the method you have to enforce _your _boundaries on _your_ life--not impose them on your spouse's--once your spouse has gone too far.


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## *Deidre*

''I'm open minded to an open marriage'' translates into the dating world as ''I want to see other people.'' That's what people say who are dating when they don't want to be exclusive anymore, but don't want to full on break up with the person. lol 

That's honestly what your wife means. Whether she's acted on it already or not, who knows. But, that's what it means.


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## bandit.45

Go to the lawyer and draft up a divorce petition. 

Bring the draft home, walk up to her and hold it up in front of her. 

"Here's a hint my dear. Now...what is it going to be? Monogamy and fidelity, or the door?"


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## straightshooter

One other suggestion for you that you might consider.

Sit her down and CALMLY tell her you need to hear anything she wants to tell you. No mention of divorce, but no mention of telling her you are OK with it.
Tell her you will listen to anything but you cannot find out like you did the last time on your own if she has done anything inappropriate. If you do this in a non threatening manner, she may get fooled and confess or at least tell you where her head is really at.
my guess is that she will try to make you think you are nits and then you can play hardball, but she has deceived you in the past. Nothing wrong with trying to trick her into admission by making her think you MIGHT be OK with anything she tells you.

But do something and do it quick!!!


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## GusPolinski

You caught her in an EA getting ready to go PA, she's stated that she doesn't consider drunken ONS's to be cheating, and now she's talking about an open marriage?

Your marriage is already open, sir.

You just didn't know it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vinnydee

I can offer some advice since my wife and had an open marriage for most of our 40+ year marriage. We tried wife swapping and soft swinging before forming a poly triad with my wife's best friend who shared me with my wife. Try living with two women for 30 years where you are always out voted, sometime. Not as fun as it sounds despite the thousands of threesomes we had. It was especially fun when one went through menopause right after the other. 

My own open marriage requires a lot of words to describe so I will not do so. We both were free to have sex with others but my wife chose to just stick with me and her girlfriend and to a large extent, I did the same. Why? Well, due to our lifestyle, most of our friends were in some form of open marriage and had sex with others. We were part of a group or 8 couples who wife swapped. We are the only ones who did not divorce. In every case, one or both of the spouses ran off with someone they were dating. That scared us straight plus AIDS hit the news and no one knew much about it.

Think about the following. When one spouse all of a sudden asks for an open marriage, they usually are already having an affair and want to continue it guilt free without sneaking around. It is rare for a spouse to just all of a sudden decide that they want to have sex with others when they do not at least, have someone in mind.

It is easier for women to find sex partners than it is for men. What I saw were husbands who initiated the open marriage but then regretted it when their wives had multiple lovers and they spent months between girlfriends. It becomes lopsided in favor of the wife.

The other big issue is that despite any rules you may have or the desire to never have feelings for sex partners, love is a chemical reaction and not something we can control by thought. Emotional entanglements are not uncommon in open relationships. 

I would not doubt that your wife is either already having an affair and wants to continue it guilt free and perhaps have more time to spend with her lover or has someone in mind. I think you know that your marriage is dead despite your wife wanting to try to make it work. That usually is just a stalling method for her to get established with another man who can support her. I do not know how many times I have seen a woman divorce and all of a sudden have a boyfriend. 

I feel that if your marriage is not easy and you have to constantly try, it is not a good marriage and rarely works out in the long run. I wish you luck. I have never found a long married couple whose open marriage lasted long. They may exist. We exist but for us it is like giving permission to someone to use your swimming pool knowing that they do not like the water much. Plus my wife is only interested in women, not men.


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## MachoMcCoy

Sledgehammers or nothing on this board. How is it POSSIBLE it is such a popular relationship site?


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## mrshavisham

Can I just say something?

I recently said to my husband that I was open to an open marriage. I haven't ever cheated on him, nor am I considering doing so. I am actually completely frustrated with our sex life because he has a low libido and we never have sex.

Not sure if the OP has been servicing his W? Albeit frequently?

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


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## ConanHub

mrshavisham said:


> Can I just say something?
> 
> I recently said to my husband that I was open to an open marriage. I haven't ever cheated on him, nor am I considering doing so. I am actually completely frustrated with our sex life because he has a low libido and we never have sex.
> 
> Not sure if the OP has been servicing his W? Albeit frequently?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


The first difference is you haven't cheated. OP's wife already has and talking about opening your marriage after you cheated is a really, really bad idea.

She has also had poor moral outlook concerning "just sex" not being cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding

mrshavisham said:


> Can I just say something?
> 
> *I recently said to my husband that I was open to an open marriage. I haven't ever cheated on him, nor am I considering doing so. I am actually completely frustrated with our sex life because he has a low libido and we never have sex.*
> 
> Not sure if the OP has been servicing his W? Albeit frequently?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


So now the question, have you talked to your H about your frustration with your sex life and his low libido? If so what was his response, was he willing to work on it, seek medical testing, etc...?

I just don't see how suggesting banging someone else is in any way a positive for a marriage


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## ConanHub

EllisRedding said:


> So now the question, have you talked to your H about your frustration with your sex life and his low libido? If so what was his response, was he willing to work on it, seek medical testing, etc...?
> 
> I just don't see how suggesting banging someone else is in any way a positive for a marriage


Yeah. This too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

Mrs Havisham,

I think she hear you about your husbands low sex drive. But if that does not change, what's next for you if you are already stating your are OK with an open marriage. What benefit would that be for him????
Suggest you get to a sex therapist before your thoughts of an open marriage turns into one with or without his consent.

OP, your wife has already cheated and right now you do not know squat about what she has or has not done since her open marriage enlightenment. And her comment, drunk or not, about banging someone else when drunk being no big deal should have you bouncing off the walls.


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## Satya

OP, your wife was being honest about her preference. She may or may not be cheating, but the thing that is certain is that her desires are not compatible with yours. She wants an open relationship and you do not. Based on this fact alone, and combined with the knowledge that she has acted on her feelings once before, I'd recommend divorce. You're not compatible.


----------



## mrshavisham

straightshooter said:


> Mrs Havisham,
> 
> I think she hear you about your husbands low sex drive. But if that does not change, what's next for you if you are already stating your are OK with an open marriage. What benefit would that be for him????
> Suggest you get to a sex therapist before your thoughts of an open marriage turns into one with or without his consent.
> 
> OP, your wife has already cheated and right now you do not know squat about what she has or has not done since her open marriage enlightenment. And her comment, drunk or not, about banging someone else when drunk being no big deal should have you bouncing off the walls.


You're right. Therapy is warranted in this situation. But not everyone is open to therapy due to cultural or social stigma. That's the case for my H, where his cultural background completely shuns the idea of a neutral third party assisting a married couple. And although he constantly reassures that he'll definitely work on it and we'll definitely improve it, it's never followed through.

How will an open marriage help the spouse who isn't open to the idea of it? Well, it could help by proxy in that the other spouse's needs are being met - by someone else - and this can probably help with overall happiness in the primary relationship. I don't know, though. I'm just speculating. I could be wrong?

I don't understand this cut and dry mentality with monogamy and marriage. I don't know how humans can possibly be expected to be satisfied with one person for the rest of their life if that person isn't reciprocating, despite honest and open communication occurring.

Not sure about the nature of the OP's communication with his W. If it's completely open, even his openness could be met with empty reassurances.

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding

mrshavisham said:


> How will an open marriage help the spouse who isn't open to the idea of it? Well, it could help by proxy in that the other spouse's needs are being met - by someone else - and this can probably help with overall happiness in the primary relationship. I don't know, though. I'm just speculating. I could be wrong?


Assuming the marriage was under the preface of monogamy, how would having one spouse have sex with other people in any way bring happiness to the relationship  . See my answer below if the spouse is blatantly ignoring needs of their SO.




mrshavisham said:


> I don't understand this cut and dry mentality with monogamy and marriage. I don't know how humans can possibly be expected to be satisfied with one person for the rest of their life if that person isn't reciprocating, despite honest and open communication occurring.


That is why you get divorced


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## GusPolinski

mrshavisham said:


> Can I just say something?
> 
> I recently said to my husband that I was open to an open marriage. I haven't ever cheated on him, nor am I considering doing so. I am actually completely frustrated with our sex life because he has a low libido and we never have sex.
> 
> Not sure if the OP has been servicing his W? Albeit frequently?


This woman HAS cheated on her husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks

These are your feelings and you cannot be wrong.
You are lacking basic safety in your marriage.
What if you were a gambler and your wife had no idea if today would be the day that the house gets foreclosed on ? 

I would recommend you be honest with your wife. I would use the above analogy to explain it to her.

Wife, how would you feel if you knew I had a gambling problem, and every day you were unsure if this would be the day I would come home and tell you I lost all our money.... I don't think you would feel too good about our marriage. I will tell you I feel like this with regard to your fidelity. What I need in my marriage is to feel safe from the threat of infidelity. I don't feel this way now. I don't feel safe. I want you to think about whether you can provide this to me, and whether you want to provide this to me, and what kind of wife you want to be.

End of conversation. Then live your life to see if she can provide you what you need or not after directly being asked to.


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## tech-novelist

rustybrain said:


> Oh, here we go again. So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


The only thing you should be considering is where to hide the VARs.

If you even care at this point.

The chance that she is cheating on you is 99%+.

Note: I'm not judging real open relationships, although they are a lot more dangerous than those engaging in them suspect (due to hormonal changes caused by having sex with others). But they have to be agreed upon beforehand, which isn't the case here.


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## GusPolinski

mrshavisham said:


> You're right. Therapy is warranted in this situation. But not everyone is open to therapy due to cultural or social stigma. That's the case for my H, where his cultural background completely shuns the idea of a neutral third party assisting a married couple. And although he constantly reassures that he'll definitely work on it and we'll definitely improve it, it's never followed through.
> 
> How will an open marriage help the spouse who isn't open to the idea of it? Well, it could help by proxy in that the other spouse's needs are being met - by someone else - and this can probably help with overall happiness in the primary relationship. I don't know, though. I'm just speculating. I could be wrong?
> 
> I don't understand this cut and dry mentality with monogamy and marriage. I don't know how humans can possibly be expected to be satisfied with one person for the rest of their life if that person isn't reciprocating, despite honest and open communication occurring.
> 
> Not sure about the nature of the OP's communication with his W. If it's completely open, even his openness could be met with empty reassurances.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


Transitioning to an open marriage in the scenario that you've described will lead to divorce.

So just divorce and then remarry someone wants an open marriage as much as you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ABHale

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.



Why even bring it up if she already had someone in mine. She has to be talking with this guy already. She wants to be with him or she would never have asked for a open relationship. She has already decided to do this, just wanted your permission.


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## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. *She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not.* She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


Oh, and about ^this^?

Don't forget that, to her, meaningless sex isn't cheating.

Her words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

OP, you don't want an open relationship, which is the only real consideration here. Her past behavior and attitude gives you no reason to trust her, either. However, if you have truly reconciled, that would not preclude the option of now considering an open relationship IF (and only if) you want to do so. You don't. You don't trust her motives. So, don't, and be clear. Now is a time to monitor her to be sure she isn't acting on this unilaterally (aka cheating; again).


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## Marc878

rustybrain said:


> Hmmm. I am against divorce, but there is only so much I can put up with. She is very smart and has learned from the past that Internet activity can get you caught. So I checked her cell phone and found nothing suspicious. Of course she just has to delete recent activity and incoming or out going call history. She definitely would have the know how to do these basic things. Red flags maybe, but why would she bother tell she isn't opposed to an open relationship? She says she is anti divorce and loves me. That she would only ever engage in an open relationship with my consent and was been honest. But your right, it is suspicious.


Cheaters lie a lot in case you didn't know and have no problem saying "I love you" right before the bomb drops.

Your phone bill online is what you check. Incoming/outgoing calls are logged whether deleted or not. Looking at her phone if she's smart like you say will tell you nothing. Check the online bill.

I hope its nothing but it's an easy check.


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## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> The first difference is you haven't cheated. OP's wife already has and talking about opening your marriage after you cheated is a really, really bad idea.
> 
> She has also had poor moral outlook concerning "just sex" not being cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's still a good question though.

OP, are you having good sex with her frequently? Does she complain about the lack of sex, or that it's boring, that kind of thing?


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## Marduk

mrshavisham said:


> You're right. Therapy is warranted in this situation. But not everyone is open to therapy due to cultural or social stigma. That's the case for my H, where his cultural background completely shuns the idea of a neutral third party assisting a married couple. And although he constantly reassures that he'll definitely work on it and we'll definitely improve it, it's never followed through.


Wait, his cultural background forbids going to a therapist about this sex drive, but having another man have sex with his wife is OK?

I'm not sure about that.



> How will an open marriage help the spouse who isn't open to the idea of it? Well, it could help by proxy in that the other spouse's needs are being met - by someone else - and this can probably help with overall happiness in the primary relationship. I don't know, though. I'm just speculating. I could be wrong?
> 
> I don't understand this cut and dry mentality with monogamy and marriage. I don't know how humans can possibly be expected to be satisfied with one person for the rest of their life if that person isn't reciprocating, despite honest and open communication occurring.


I think some people are wired to be OK with this sort of thing, and some people aren't. And I think it's very tricky to pull off.

I will say though, that if I were completely unable to have sex with my wife again ever (and by that I mean not able to get her off even if my penis doesn't work), I would probably offer it to her. Because I love her and would want her to be happy.

As a total last resort. And I can tell you that my wife saying that she'd be open to an open marriage because I'm not having enough sex with her would sure make me sit up and take notice.



> Not sure about the nature of the OP's communication with his W. If it's completely open, even his openness could be met with empty reassurances.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


Good point.


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## ConanHub

I like the sexual satisfaction part of her question too.

OP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

straightshooter said:


> And I would not keep telling her you are going to divorce her. That is a threat you are not totally prepared to carry out YET , so do not put lines in the sand until you are prepared to follow through or she will have no fear of any consequences. I would meet with an attorney.


Exactly. A line in the sand needs to be very specific and also detectible when she crosses it. What kind of line in the sand is possible here? If you f another person I will leave you? That is already a standard marital boundary. If she mentions open marriage again it will result in divorce? That doesn't accomplish anything. She'll just shut up and go dark.

A line in the sand also needs to be something she can't weasel around. There can't be a way to rationalize a way around it. She will exploit it, and the BH will likely try to convince himself she didn't really cross the line. There are too many pressures to keep this marriage going (kids), so he'll let her slide if there is any wiggle room at all.


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## ConanHub

Is there a culture where men spurn counseling but welcome other men shooting sperm into their wife?

Swinger therapy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

Hi. I am a gym goer, in good shape. We have great sex. I thought we were the closest we have ever been. We both have good jobs. She is a career woman and intelligent. Family life was moving along smoothly. She is still denying cheating or planning to cheat. I don't know what to believe anymore. 

Also the spy stuff take a lot of effort. I don't know if I have that effort left in me. I would rather she admitted and we divorced than spying at this stage in my life. I do love her, but I don't want to be a doormat, no way. I hate being put in this scenario. We have kids and it will really destroy them if we get divorced. But I also have a breaking point. I cannot forgive cheating.


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## rustybrain

marduk said:


> Let me ask you a few questions.
> 
> If she was cheating, would you want to know?
> 
> YES
> 
> If she is, would you want to leave her or reconcile?
> 
> Leave her
> 
> If she told you that she wanted to have sex with other men, could you hear the truth?
> 
> Yes
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

ConanHub said:


> Is there a culture where men spurn counseling but welcome other men shooting sperm into their wife?
> 
> Swinger therapy?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, sperm is supposed to be a natural mood enhancer, and do wonders for the skin ...


----------



## Kivlor

rustybrain said:


> Hi. I am a gym goer, in good shape. We have great sex. I thought we were the closest we have ever been. We both have good jobs. She is a career woman and intelligent. Family life was moving along smoothly. She is still denying cheating or planning to cheat. I don't know what to believe anymore.
> 
> Also the spy stuff take a lot of effort. I don't know if I have that effort left in me. I would rather she admitted and we divorced than spying at this stage in my life. I do love her, but I don't want to be a doormat, no way. I hate being put in this scenario. We have kids and it will really destroy them if we get divorced. But I also have a breaking point. I cannot forgive cheating.


You know that your wife can tell you she isn't cheating, and she won't view it as a lie, because she's already defined sleeping with other men as "not cheating". I think because of this mentality, it doesn't really matter if she's cheating on you right now; she is open to doing so, and that is your real problem.

OP, if it is the case that you aren't neglecting your role as husband, then I don't see a lot of options for you. 

You can swallow your pride and just stay married and hope she doesn't sleep with someone else when she clearly wants to and doesn't view it as an ethical dilemma. You can stay married and spend a ton of effort trying to make sure she doesn't, and run yourself ragged with the constant surveillance. You can divorce her. 

Only you know what's right for you here. I'd lean for divorce. Not out of anger, but because her worldview doesn't seem to be aligned with yours. But I understand if you are opposed to that option.

Did you ask your W why she brought up wanting an open marriage?

Did you ask her why she thinks it's not breaking her M vows to sleep with other men? 

If not, you may talk this over with her, without being aggressive or confrontational. Just ask matter-of-factly.


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## wmn1

Kivlor said:


> What did you say when she told you she's interested in an open marriage?
> 
> What did you say when she said that sleeping with other people isn't cheating, even if your spouse doesn't know you're doing it?



LMAO awesome pic


----------



## SunCMars

mrshavisham said:


> Can I just say something?
> 
> I recently said to my husband that I was open to an open marriage. I haven't ever cheated on him, nor am I considering doing so. I am actually completely frustrated with our sex life because he has a low libido and we never have sex.
> 
> Not sure if the OP has been servicing his W? Albeit frequently?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk


If you cannot get your husband to work on his low libido and cannot get him to take care of your legitimate needs then "consider' amicable divorce. Do not cheat.

Have you considered having his Testosterone levels checked? Normal adult levels run ~250 to 1100 ng/dl. These levels tend to drop steadily after age 30. If they "consistently" run low, then T-Gel or shots will perk him right up. There are some downsides to using T, consult your urologist. Do not give up unless he does. Work with him. What are your ages? You may want to start a thread.


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Let me ask you a few questions.
> 
> If she was cheating, would you want to know?
> 
> YES
> 
> If she is, would you want to leave her or reconcile?
> 
> Leave her
> 
> If she told you that she wanted to have sex with other men, could you hear the truth?
> 
> Yes


OK.

#1. Grab everything electronic you have access to and back it up. Find out what she does when you're not around, particularly where there's booze and other men. Search the data. Do this for a few weeks. Just shut your mouth and open your eyes. Let her do whatever she wants to do, play dead.

#2 If you find something out, you've answered your own question.

#3 If you didn't, sit your wife down and tell her what I said above. In your own words. She cheated on you once, she's told you that a drunken fling doesn't count for her as cheating, and she asked you for an open marriage. Ask her why you should believe her that she hasn't cheated again, or doesn't plan on it. Tell her that you're operating under that assumption until she can prove otherwise, and just disconnect from her. Tell her that if she has cheated on you again, you can hear it without flipping out. Tell her that if you're not enough for her, that you can hear that without flipping out, too. And then ask her why you should live a life of constant worry that your wife is having sex with another man. Sleep in a different bedroom. Be gone a lot. Be super dad, but not super husband. Don't cry, beg, or try to convince her of anything. Don't try to rescue her. The goal is to get her to think, and to get you to think.


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## Yeswecan

rustybrain said:


> *Oh, here we go again.* So I should really start considering divorce or some spy technology??


Do you want to be saying this the rest of your life? I did not think so.


----------



## Yeswecan

rustybrain said:


> Just spoke with the wife. Told her if she wants an open relationship I will divorce. She says she is telling the truth. That it was a suggestion only. One she has not acted on or will not. She says she understand my concern but thought we were getting on so well that any topic could be discussed. She doesn't appear to be lying. Last time I could spot the lies in her voice and body language. Maybe she has learned to lie. I am confused.


Oddly enough my W does not speak of open marriage. It simply is not a conversation as she is not interested in that activity. Your W is obviously thinking about it and working an approach to an open marriage IMO.


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## MJJEAN

We have a saying around here. "Drunken words are sober thoughts."

As others have pointed out, your wife doesn't consider meaningless sex to be cheating. When she tells you she hasn't cheated and will not cheat, she is telling the truth....from her point of view...because she doesn't see meaningless sex as cheating.

You can't un-know what you know. You know she has cheated before. You know she doesn't see random sex as cheating. You know she wants to screw other men because she asked for an open marriage.

Knowing what you know, do you want to spend your life with a woman who doesn't share your values, who you cannot really trust, who wants to share herself with other men and you with other women?


----------



## Yeswecan

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


And you're buying what she is selling?


----------



## EllisRedding

Just follow @marduk advice and gather as much physical evidence as possible. If you find something even remotely questionable you need to start more seriously thinking about ending the marriage.

Talking to her, I don't think you will get anywhere regarding her Open Marriage comments (she will just fall back on the whole "I Was Drunk" excuse). I would be more interested in understanding her rationale about how meaningless sex is not cheating.

Here is the challenge though IMO, what happens if you do all the investigation and find your W has done nothing wrong. Are you able to live with that, or do you feel like you will never be able to trust her. You are the only one that can answer this, so you just need to be honest with yourself about.

Honestly, I believe based on her comments (meaningless sex is not cheating, open marriage) she has either cheated already or has someone lined up and is just going through the motivations of justifying it to herself. Given that you already caught her with intentions of meeting someone for sex, I would be extremely uneasy (tbh after that incident I would have never been able to reconcile).


----------



## wmn1

rustybrain said:


> kids are 10 and 6. She is adamant she isn't cheating and will not. She says she happy and our situation fine. Says that her previous behaviour is polarising her words in relation to open relationship.


First of all, open marriages are disgraceful. That's my opinion and I stick to it.

Secondly, she has cheated before and now brings this up, she's cheating again.

Third, I hate when people suggest open marriages part way through a marriage when young kids are involved. In other words, she gets to dump the kids on you so you can be doing their homework with them while she's out getting banged by another guy down the block. Who the fvuk does that ?

Good for sticking to your guns. I know there will be financial suffering but tell her to beat it


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## MachoMcCoy

I'm speechless.


----------



## eric1

EllisRedding said:


> Just follow @marduk advice and gather as much physical evidence as possible. If you find something even remotely questionable you need to start more seriously thinking about ending the marriage.
> 
> Talking to her, I don't think you will get anywhere regarding her Open Marriage comments (she will just fall back on the whole "I Was Drunk" excuse). I would be more interested in understanding her rationale about how meaningless sex is not cheating.
> 
> Here is the challenge though IMO, what happens if you do all the investigation and find your W has done nothing wrong. Are you able to live with that, or do you feel like you will never be able to trust her. You are the only one that can answer this, so you just need to be honest with yourself about.
> 
> Honestly, I believe based on her comments (meaningless sex is not cheating, open marriage) she has either cheated already or has someone lined up and is just going through the motivations of justifying it to herself. Given that you already caught her with intentions of meeting someone for sex, I would be extremely uneasy (tbh after that incident I would have never been able to reconcile).


Precisely. Nobody is suggesting dedicating your life to this. Particularly if you have the fortitude to walk.

90% of the information gathering that you need to do can be done in three hours. Or just pay a PI a few grand to do it for you. Both are super easy and WILL save you a tremendous amount of heartache. 

Let's face it, the red flags are there and you're not going to sleep well until you know for sure.


----------



## Thor

rustybrain, if you didn't have the kids would you be staying with her?


----------



## wmn1

marduk said:


> @jld is that you?


ha. Good one. :rofl:

I agree with Kivlor's post that Macho freaked out about.


----------



## straightshooter

So far you have not gotten one word from her that even attempts to EXPLAIN why she asks you for an open marriage in the same breath that she tells you a drunken ONS is not cheating when she arrives home after being drunk out without you.

Will you please read that again.

So you can discuss anything she says. She did not ask you about the weather. She asked you if it was OK for her to **** other men as long as you knew about it.

You need to ask her to tell you WHY SHE ASKED YOU THAT OF ALL THINGS. 

If you don't stop this crap about believing her you are going to be in an open marriage so fast your head will spin if you are not already.


----------



## Yeswecan

rustybrain said:


> Hi. I am a gym goer, in good shape. We have great sex. I thought we were the closest we have ever been. We both have good jobs. She is a career woman and intelligent. Family life was moving along smoothly. She is still denying cheating or planning to cheat. I don't know what to believe anymore.
> 
> Also the spy stuff take a lot of effort. I don't know if I have that effort left in me. I would rather she admitted and we divorced than spying at this stage in my life. I do love her, but I don't want to be a doormat, no way. I hate being put in this scenario. We have kids and it will really destroy them if we get divorced. But I also have a breaking point. I cannot forgive cheating.


You must explain to your W in no uncertain terms that drunken sex is cheating. EA is cheating. Opening up the marriage is not something you want nor will entertain to any extent. Most importantly, all of this if attempted is guaranteed 100% deal breaker and D will completed in a matter of months. If she is unhappy in the marriage then move towards a divorce. Take a stand. Spell out the rules. Then there will be no surprises when and if the hammer has to come down.


----------



## rustybrain

Thank you for all the advice. I don't really know how this is going to play out. But at least now I know that if I find she has cheated, I am gone. If I find she has designs on someone, I am gone. An EA, I am gone.
If the evidence comes up with nothing I still have a lot of thinking to do.


----------



## philreag

How's your sex life? Any changes?


----------



## rustybrain

Sex life is good. We always had a healthy sexual relationship.


----------



## rustybrain

Thor said:


> rustybrain, if you didn't have the kids would you be staying with her?


Probably not. But that could be said for a lot of marriages. So not unique to this situation. We do have kids, so I cannot think otherwise.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

RB - is it possible she's got a kink or fetish she is embarrassed to explore with you. Shame can mess things up. Maybe she likes to be submissive - or humiliated a bit verbally - or do some degrading things - and can't bring it up with you. I imagine with alcohol and the type of guy that would hit that, she could get that. Just a crazy thought - but maybe bring that up and see what happens.


----------



## Thor

rustybrain said:


> Probably not. But that could be said for a lot of marriages. So not unique to this situation. We do have kids, so I cannot think otherwise.


Then you have zero ability to make any real changes. When your Prime Directive is Divorce is Not an Option, you lose all leverage.

You don't confront the really big issues because it might result in divorce. You won't push the little issues very hard because then they may become big issues which could lead to divorce.

It is impossible to have real boundaries around anything important with that Prime Directive. Btdt, lost 25+ years to it. Guess what? Nothing got better. And... she learned she could keep doing what she was doing and could push the boundaries further because there were no consequences.

Your kids deserve to be brought up in a happy healthy house. It may be you need to divorce to give that to them. Better they have divorced parents with at least one happy healthy home than unhappy parents together in an unhealthy home.

Don't use your kids as an excuse. Your marriage is either acceptable or not. Either way, the kids are not in your marriage, so it stands on it's own merits.


----------



## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Sex life is good. We always had a healthy sexual relationship.


If this is true, why did she cheat, why does she consider no strings attached sex not cheating, and why does she want an open marriage?

What are her past relationships like?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

marduk said:


> If this is true, why did she cheat, why does she consider no strings attached sex not cheating, and why does she want an open marriage?
> 
> What are her past relationships like?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because she is not monogamous. Some people just do not have it in them to be. This is what he needs to determine.


----------



## Tron

marduk said:


> If this is true, why did she cheat, why does she consider no strings attached sex not cheating, and why does she want an open marriage?
> 
> What are her past relationships like?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was gonna say that she may just be wired that way.

Need to probably look into her formative years, dating history and FOO. 

So far, we have not delved into that too much here.


----------



## Marc878

rustybrain said:


> Thank you for all the advice. I don't really know how this is going to play out. But at least now I know that if I find she has cheated, I am gone. If I find she has designs on someone, I am gone. An EA, I am gone.
> If the evidence comes up with nothing I still have a lot of thinking to do.


Knowing is better than not knowing.

I hope it's nothing.


----------



## jdawg2015

OP, marduk is spot on. 

You need to go into detective mode. This is a ****ty place to be but before you can see what's going on you need to zip your mouth shut. Do not bring the topic up etc or she'll go into hiding mode. There is a good chance she already has someone in mind. Find out who it is.

Do you have access to her phone and all electronics? Given her past history I would hope those boundaries would be well established since she was cheating previously.

Snoop and get intel, but you obviously know this is a huge problem simply based on values. Once a woman mentioned the desire to have an open relationship I'm not sure I'd ever recover from that either. 

Given her past cheating, my advice to you is file for the divorce and end the agony of being with someone who is not trustworthy. So many fish in the sea.



marduk said:


> She's been cheating on you for some time, probably with a bunch of different guys.
> 
> That would be my assumption from that point forward. Shut your mouth, open your eyes, dig in deep into email, Facebook, phone, anything you can get your hands on.
> 
> Next time she's on a Girls Night Out, swing by where she says she is without having her realize that you've done that.


----------



## willnevermarryagain

I just come upon this forum today and my user name is what it is because of an 'open marriage'. I can tell you there was nothing good that come from it other then I found some life long female friends. It was my now ex-husband's idea. 

I am really happy to see the gentlemen here speaking up and saying "not for me"...."no way" because all I usually have heard is "what man wouldn't want an 'open marriage'?".

Somebody doesn't just bring up 'let's have an open marriage or relationship' without some HUGE explanation of "why are you so interested in that?"......Boy oh boy....run for the hills....or mountains if they're closer!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## SunCMars

marduk said:


> If this is true, why did she cheat, why does she consider no strings attached sex not cheating, and why does she want an open marriage?
> 
> What are her past relationships like?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are two people in the marital bed. One of them says the sex is good. The sex is satisfying. That is you RB.

The other, your HD wife, says otherwise. You cannot speak for another person unless you are a parrot. You have no feathers and no Nib. To parrot her [words] you must include these blatant overhanging utterances: 1) Open marriage is desired. 2)Meaningless sex is not cheating. That is what the Parrot heard. Anything else is your hopeful heart beating a different tune.

I see a few possibilities, go all out in the bedroom to keep her mind and senses titillated, or-----> bail [not water my friend] bail out of this sinking boat. 

A seer will conjure, that it will be not be water that fills the bottom of the boat. He sees tears, your tears RB. 

Good luck, this ain't easy.


----------



## JohnA

Have you checked the phone bills ? This the go to thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html

Which of these applies ?

Red flags*

Sex life dropped off noticeably
Passwords on phone and computer
Much more time on line...fakebook.
More GNOs...staying out later.
Less eye contact and holding hands...much less physical contact.
Less communication.
Staying up late on computer.
Dressing more provocative
More shopping-spending...clothes.
3 hour groceries shopping trips
Gasoline use and mileage went up
Generally disconnected from family.
New friends that I wasn't introduced to
Cell/text usage went up...way up.
New hair style and attention to makeup
Started exercising more.
Secretive about whereabouts during contact
She would become annoyed easily with me.
Household responsibilities dropped way off.
ecame more forgetful in general
A noticable distancing from her family.
Much more waxing...trimming...shaving....not for me.


----------



## JohnA

Here is the thing about her suggestion. She thinks you will not have much luck and will not find someone else. Watch her do a 180 real quick if she feels threaten if she does not have someone lined up. 

You really need a IC with there head screwd on type. @ConanHub is a regular poster here and may be able to what to look for. Also if I am not mistaken @marduk has gone through something similar.


----------



## MJJEAN

rustybrain said:


> Thank you for all the advice. I don't really know how this is going to play out. But at least now I know that if I find she has cheated, I am gone. If I find she has designs on someone, I am gone. An EA, I am gone.
> If the evidence comes up with nothing I still have a lot of thinking to do.


If she knows this, chances are she won't be honest. 

I think you might lack some basic understanding of how non-monogamists think. From her point of view, extramarital sex has little or nothing to do with her marriage or her feelings for you. From her point of view, occasional casual sex with outside partners is completely separate.

Which, btw, might be a problem in terms of evidence gathering. Frankly, most W get caught because they send and receive messages with their AP's. Usually, the affair has been ongoing, there is some perceived emotional involvement being immortalized in texts and emails, and the AP's have left tracks for a BS to find.

When dealing with the type of WS who is just having random hook-up swinger style casual sex, there isn't a lot of evidence to find. There aren't going to be texts and email talking about feelings or longings. There aren't going to be any numbers on the phone bill that appear over and over again for longer than normal duration. 

If I were looking for evidence of cheating and dealing with a non-monogamist spouse who is ok with casual sex, I'd check through emails and texts to known friends. Might be a mention of something there in their conversations.


----------



## Thor

Yup, keylogging and VAR in the car would be the best bets. But if she's only having occasional random hook-ups it can be a long time between opportunities to find evidence.


----------



## Marduk

Thor said:


> But if she's only having occasional random hook-ups it can be a long time between opportunities to find evidence.


This is a good point and I was trying to find a gentle way to say this.

It could very well be once every month or two, she goes and finds some random guy at the bar or office or whatever people use for hookup apps now, ****s his brains out, and walks away.

That would be pretty hard to catch, and is exactly what she thinks isn't cheating.


----------



## Kivlor

marduk said:


> This is a good point and I was trying to find a gentle way to say this.
> 
> It could very well be once every month or two, she goes and finds some random guy at the bar or office or whatever people use for hookup apps now, ****s his brains out, and walks away.
> 
> That would be pretty hard to catch, and is exactly what she thinks isn't cheating.


Personally, because of this mentality, I don't recommend the OP bother with surveillance. He will have to watch his W like a hawk forever. Why even bother? 

She's not going to stop thinking this is acceptable behavior, especially not without some serious philosophical discussion. And even that is almost guaranteed to fail.

I really think OP needs to ask himself if he can live with an open marriage, or the constant worry that his W will cheat. Or more importantly, can he just let it go, and not worry about it at all.

If not, I'd just recommend D. I don't think it's worth the heartache and stress that a continued M would cause to someone who wants a monogamous marriage. If he could get her to understand why this is unethical, maybe... but I'm just not of the persuasion that OP will have success with that.


----------



## Marduk

Kivlor said:


> Personally, because of this mentality, I don't recommend the OP bother with surveillance. He will have to watch his W like a hawk forever. Why even bother?
> 
> She's not going to stop thinking this is acceptable behavior, especially not without some serious philosophical discussion. And even that is almost guaranteed to fail.
> 
> I really think OP needs to ask himself if he can live with an open marriage, or the constant worry that his W will cheat. Or more importantly, can he just let it go, and not worry about it at all.
> 
> If not, I'd just recommend D. I don't think it's worth the heartache and stress that a continued M would cause to someone who wants a monogamous marriage. If he could get her to understand why this is unethical, maybe... but I'm just not of the persuasion that OP will have success with that.


That would be my position as well.

I'd sit her down and say what I said before -- basically that it's obvious that I'm either not enough for her or she isn't monogamous and we both need to be free to find what we want.

And then I'd separate and start the divorce process. Knowing she'd probably flip out and try to convince me this wasn't true... But also knowing that this is probably her fear talking and not real... And knowing that after a few months of being open to getting banged by random guys she probably wouldn't try that hard to reconcile.

I just don't know how anyone would be ok worrying about this forever, unless you just got comfortable with the idea that your wife is having sex with other guys.


----------



## JohnA

Can we step back for a moment and consider: 

While het question is over the top and I have no idea considering the past being able to communicate reduces frustrations. Some questions to think about. Do you use tools ? Do you set aside time for role playing out of the house? Sexting, not "oh I want,.." or selfees but like here Sculptures | Rodin Museum. or here Erotic Art Pictures, Images & Photos | Photobucket. With a short note. 

You keep saymg "if then divorce" really? Sounds to me like you are whizzing in the dark. Have you looked into custody and divorce law in your state ? Do you have a plan in place? These links are from different states and you should have already into the matter 

Pennsylvania Child Custody Factors - Pennsylvania Men's Divorce LawsPennsylvania Men's Divorce Information
Section 5328 - Title 23 - DOMESTIC RELATIONS

And to find info on your state State Specific Divorce and Custody Information - Divorce Source


----------



## DanielleBennett

I see this as being a red flag. She wouldn't feel the need to suggest an open relationship if she didn't have someone in her sights. I would ask her if she has anyone in mind for this supposed open relationship and if she tells you then bam, there you go. If she doesn't then ask her why she felt the need to bring it up? I guess I am blunt sometimes, but if I were you I would simply tell her that if she didn't want an open relationship then she never should have mentioned it and if she doesn't want to be with you anymore then to pack her crap and get out. Counseling may be necessary here though if you want to try to mend things with her.


----------



## eric1

@rustybrain - anything new in the past few days ?


----------



## rustybrain

eric1 said:


> @rustybrain - anything new in the past few days ?


Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61

Translation I think I have feelings for someone else....ergo go 180 on her and file...then see how quickly she sees your drive.


----------



## JohnA

Yea X man nailed it. 

Where are her comments about no ambition and no drive coming from? Rewriting martial history is common for WS, but never the less you need to consider carefully. So what does she mean, and how does it apply to you.

So it is time to do an autopsy on you, her and your marriage. 

What are the current income percentage of each of you to the household? 
What are each of yours attitude towards material things? 
What are the material things you each want? 
Child related duties how are they spilt? 
Rent or own ? 
Debt load ? 
Alcohol use and recreational drug use? 
Any disruptive habits like heavy gambling ?
Time spent in the home together and out of the home? 

How are you doing on the red flags list I posted? Add this 180 degree in feeling: 3/7 things are fine, she happy, will not cheat. Today not happy, disappointed in you, wants space.


----------



## Evinrude58

rustybrain said:


> Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will say this:

My wife told me she didn't love me and only had feelings for me as the father of our children.
She told me I had no ambition.
She said she wanted a man that was a go-getter.
She said she was confused and that SHE didn't even know what she wanted.


She also asked me after sex about a month before this broke out--- "would you like to sit in that chair and watch another man **** me??"
And when I flipped out and said wtf are you talking about??? She said she was just joking. Being funny.

Do you see any similarities???

My wife and I had a good marriage and our kids were happy. She was bored with working and being expected to be a mom and clean and be home once in a while. She had so little to do in the evenings, she would read online smut books and I think her cheating desire started there. Her sister would send that trash to her. Then she got a twitter account and started pm'ing dudes on there that tweeted sexual bs. They looked so "confident" to her, she said. 
Then she started taking diet pills and working out at 4:30 in the morning and sexting and sending nude pics to multiple other men-- men she knew were married with kids that she'd meet on twitter.
Two months of this and she didn't love me and wanted a divorce.
Told me nothing about her sexting addiction, and that I was a bad husband and father. It was all MY fault. Until I learned the truth on my own.
We are divorced. I was in shock. I begged, cried, pleaded, started doing all housework/cooking/giving her the best sex she ever had EVERY night. I should have done better work in the past, but I was far from a selfish lover.
It just made me lose all dignity and she even said I repulsed her with all that.
I could not find the strength to do what I was told when I later found TAM. I found out about the sexting and such, she said she'd stop. When she didn't and I found out, I told her to get out and she was gone. I would've done anything to reconcile but she never wanted that.
She's getting married this month to a nasty older guy who has never had a job, gets loads of money from his rich parents who he lives next door to, and they have a maid and she does nothing but spend money and run the roads. Put 40k miles on a car in the first 1.5 years she was separated from me. I have the kids half the time and her mom has them during her week regularly.
So she has what she wanted-- a life with no responsibility and plenty of money to spend. Her bf gave her a credit card.

So what do I suggest? File for divorce and keep your dignity. This is a shock, but you will get through this. And your life will be better than living with a lowlife. Mine is.

Very sorry, but until you accept your marriage is over, you will be in pain.

Btw, I am 100% sure your wife is involved in something like an emotional affair or physical and that's where she's getting her emotional needs met, that's why her desire for you is gone.
Assume every single thing she tells you is a lie. It is.

Within a month, she'll tell you she's moving out to get some space and decide if she wants to reconcile or divorce, work out her "confusion".

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Well you guys are right. This is like a train crash. I know I should leave. Feel like running away and cutting all ties. My wife is prone to mood swings and I lived with this for year. Being honest I am disappointed and lost. I don't think she cheated but I think she plans to. We don't fight or row much so I am worried kids will be shocked. My wife got a promotion last year and we now earn the same. She said males should earn more than the female in a family. Her past is mixed. Alcoholic father, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rzmpf

rustybrain said:


> Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.
> [/size]


For what purpose should you be more ambitious? More money for a better lifestyle for her? More workhours so she has more time for herself (and whoever else). 
If you would work more she would complain about your absence and her being neglected in favor of your work.
What ambition and drive does she have?

All BS and pseudorationalization to distance herself emotionally from you for whatever reason (affair, belief of deserving better, falling out of love and trying to put the blame on you etc). 

What was wrong for her when she had her EA/nearly PA? Does she want counseling?


----------



## Evinrude58

Rusty, before you change a single thing in your life, please talk to a lawyer. An experienced one has seen this okay out thousands of times. They can help you protect your interests. Please do that. Your wife doesn't need to know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

This is a shock. So I suppose I have to prepare myself for the worst. Wife is an addictive personality. She cannot drink but she gets aggressive. She hauls 12 hour days. Works from home. Very ambitious. She doesn't drink though as she knows it doesn't suit her. When wife had ea she she depressed. My own opinion is that she is bipolar. It runs in her family. It happens when life is calm. She cannot deal with calm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Yes, prepare yourself. See a lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Ok. Will post when I can. Thanks for replies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JohnA

Look into her new boss or another upper management guy. But first plan your divorce and post divorce life. You must have an exit plan in place first and then try to save the marriage. Do not try to find a fire exit in the middle of a fire. Read @NoMoreTears4me. His marriage blew up out of the blue like your's, but he got his plan in place and today still lives in his home and has legal 50/50 custody, with actual 60/40 to him. 

Do not assume she will be better at custody. She will have and face every problem as a single parent you would. Embrace this, make it a mantra, and work at developing the skills to do so. See a lawyer on Monday/Tuesday/no later then Wednesday. Understand most states use "best interest of the child" standard and have guidelines to do so. Know these guidelines to position yourself to take advantage of them and if possible put her at a disadvantage. 

Keep your mouth shut about these plans. Understand she will is desperate to make you the fall guy, she is already rewriting history to make you a loser. Next up a lousy husband and father. 

Reach out to family and close friends. You are entering the twi-light zone, you need them to anchor you.


----------



## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.


She's lying.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> She's lying.


For emphasis.

She's lying.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> Well you guys are right. This is like a train crash. I know I should leave. Feel like running away and cutting all ties. My wife is prone to mood swings and I lived with this for year. Being honest I am disappointed and lost. I don't think she cheated but I think she plans to. We don't fight or row much so I am worried kids will be shocked. *My wife got a promotion last year and we now earn the same. She said males should earn more than the female in a family. Her past is mixed. Alcoholic father, etc.*


All of ^this^ is waywardwifespeak for "I'm f*cking my boss."

And hey... look at it this way -- equal pay should mean no alimony and minimal (if any) child support, right?


----------



## JohnA

Oh Christ bi-polar. Read @Uptown posts about BPD and Bi-Polar. He lived it for 15 years and he writes better then an educated expert. 

You will need to document everything she does. You need a pen Var to record all conversations. More then one spouse was saved from a huge lie by having a tape, myself include. Actual I set her up. I made a carefully worded statement, including the why I felt it necessary due to her actions and asked if this could be resolved. I knew she would twist it, edit it, and omit parts to smear me (smear not make look bad). Sure enough she did spreading it far and wide casting her as a super victim. Heh, heh, victim turned to villain after I played the take.


----------



## threelittlestars

Oh the old, I don't think i love you anymore.... What a piece of crap. Please file on her. She did this to you before, and seems to have no scruples to NOT do it to you again. 

You are fit and attractive and can do much better. Sorry if Divorce will screw you over financially, but this woman is just not worth it at all.


----------



## tech-novelist

rustybrain said:


> Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.


This is cheater speak right out of the cheater's handbook.

IOW, she is cheating on you (90%+) or is planning to (the other 10%).


----------



## Evinrude58

I can help her with the" who she is part". But it wouldn't be a nice thing to say.

To say she is lying, is the understatement of the century.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## straightshooter

Rusty Brain,

Yup, and her next discussion with you will be to tell you she thinks you should "separate" or that she needs "space". The translation for that is that she wants you out of the picture for a while while she either tries out her new boyfriend or gets a chance to date and have her open relationship with you not in the way.

SEE AN ATTORNEY !! Then what you should do is tell her that she can either take a polygraph to prove she has not been banging someone else or that she can have her open relationship but just not as your wife.

Trust your gut. If you believe she has either already done it or plans to, you are probably correct. but as long as you keep playing "defense" you will be behind the 8 ball. It's time for her to be told her calling the shots time is over. That may show her you are a little more ambitions than she thinks. Ambitious enough to get rid of her ass


----------



## eric1

'You are not ambitious' along with the ILYBIDLY talk means that she considers her new boyfriend that you don't know about as ambitious


----------



## JohnA

Rusty, 

If she is Bi-Polar or BPD most of the advise you have received is wrong. Both of these conditions and a few otters such as CSA require a much different approach. Yes the odds are high she is and has tried to "self-medicate' by acting out using sex and other actions. But the old expression "sometimes it really is not you - it is all them" is truth to the nth power. I have quite a few links for a BPD spouse but none for Bi-Polar. I did a quick search and found these that seem to apply 

Being Married to a Person with Depression or Bipolar: 6 Survival Tips | World of Psychology
Bipolar Spouse? If You Have One or Are One, Your Marriage Can Stil Be Wonderful. | Bipolar Lives
divorce360.com | Divorcing a Bipolar Spouse

How fimilar are you with this subject? Beware she will fight tooth and nail to deny it. Do not raise the subject with her, do not let her see an articiles you might read. Seek therapist with medical degrees and develop a plan with them to help you help your wife, including how to broach the subject.


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## JohnA

@eric1 if she does have Bi-Polar how would you normal advise change. For example would the 180 help or hurt? How should it be modified?


----------



## Uptown

rustybrain said:


> My own opinion is that she is bipolar. It runs in her family.


Rusty, the two most common causes of mood swings are strong hormone changes (e.g., PMS, pregnancy, postpartum, and perimenopause) and drug abuse. If those factors can be ruled out, the two remaining common causes are bipolar -- as you suspect -- and BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I note that the normal range of onset age for bipolar is 18 to 30 -- and the average age of onset is 25. How old is your W and when did her mood swings begin? Are they triggered by particular events (e.g., by her inability to deal with "calm," as you say) or, rather, do the swings come in regular intervals (e.g., once or twice a year)?

As @*JohnA* mentioned above, I describe the differences between bipolar and BPD in my post at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences . It is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW). If that description of BPD traits rings many bells, I would suggest you also check out my list of red flags at 18 BPD Warning Signs .


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## eric1

JohnA said:


> @eric1 if she does have Bi-Polar how would you normal advise change. For example would the 180 help or hurt? How should it be modified?



If she was BPD I'd likely respectfully dismiss myself from the conversations. That's above my pay grade so to say


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## MachoMcCoy

rustybrain said:


> Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This thread can go on for 100 pages, and the term "walk-away-wife" would not come up ONCE if it were not for Macho. Yet look. right there. A TEXTBOOK definition of one. Right up there.

Anyhow...



Brian. 

All that being said, I hate to agree with the "it's always cheating" crowd even a little. But the sequence of events points to, AT BEST, her wanting to start exploring a future without you exclusively, probably not at all.  Yeah, she either currently is or wants to be with someone else. EVENTUALLY. Right now you need to deal with the fact that she's gone.

Go ahead and spy. I don't know why, adimittedly, but all of these other folks do. They'll give you good reason. TO ME, spying gets you one of two results.

1 - She's cheating, you're gone now (now that I think of it, that may be good).

2 - You spend the next two year trying to dig up dirt, pushing her further away in the process. You find nothing. She's still miserable. You're still miserable. She's still walked.

Either way she's gone, so you need to prepare, my friend. Why in gods name are we still sending kids into marriage in this day and age not knowing there is a better than not chance that the wife will walk? Why don't they know that when it happens, the wife will be gone before they know it even started happening. Why aren't we teaching women how to get through to us differently? It's NOT WORKING!!!!

WHY ARE MEN STILL SHOCKED?

This needs to be dealt with as something other than a wife wanting to step out of her marriage. She may be, but in most cases, she walked first anyhow. So even if she IS cheating, she still walked first.

But I digress. Have fun in your "SPY ON THE CHEATING *****" party. These are the funnest ones when there is ZERO evidence. We've really got to get this guy digging! In the meantime, wives will continue to check out, not letting on until it's too late. Repeat cycle.

Good luck with that.


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## JohnA

Just curious why although the issue of Bi-Polar was raised by rusty several pages ago, poster keep blowing right by it? Any serious mental issue or deep seated emotional trauma such as CSA changes everything including but not limited to separating, divorcing, reconciliation, and post divorce life. Take a look at @VeryHurt thread. She trying to divorce a narcissist. He is out of the house, sacked up with OW3 and still prefers to blow a ton of money punishing her by using the divorce system. Hell she didn't commit adultery and walk out, he did. Or perhaps read @sixty-eight thread which has a long discussion on gray rocking. 

Hope @Uptown drops by soon, 

Rusty did you get a chance to read the links I sent you?


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## Uptown

JohnA said:


> Hope @*Uptown* drops by soon.


I already did -- in post #141 above, John. You must have missed seeing it. Thanks for the heads up.


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## larry.gray

willnevermarryagain said:


> I am really happy to see the gentlemen here speaking up and saying "not for me"...."no way" because all I usually have heard is "what man wouldn't want an 'open marriage'?".


I think there are men who fall into three categories who want an open marriage. 

One are cuckolds who wish to be humiliated, due to questionable mental fitness. Second are closeted gay or bisexual men who want an end round way to get another man into bed. Both of those are cool with an imbalance where the wife is getting WAY more sex than the husband is, because he's getting off on that imbalance too.

Then there are men who like swinging, and part of the deal with other people is "you only get to eff my wife/GF if I get to eff your wife/GF too". Then it's a "fair" trade and each gets some new strange in bed. Without that trade, it is considered cheating.

Now if it's the woman's idea and the guy is ho-hum on the idea, he's going to get the screwing of a lifetime. Unless he is a charming Adonis, he's only going to get a few women in bed. OTOH, his wife is going to get as many new men as she wants every week. She can hit a bar and have some man slvt take her home multiple nights a week if she wants.


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## rzmpf

larry.gray said:


> Now if it's the woman's idea and the guy is ho-hum on the idea, he's going to get the screwing of a lifetime. Unless he is a charming Adonis, he's only going to get a few women in bed. OTOH, his wife is going to get as many new men as she wants every week. She can hit a bar and have some man slvt take her home multiple nights a week if she wants.


The ho-hum guys are also the delusional majority that think that an open relationship is a good idea for them, many of these guys even propose it to their SO and when reality sinks in they want to close Pandora's box. But the box likes the pounding its getting so it stays open.


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## rustybrain

Read links to bipolar. Similar. But i am confused. She works from home. Gym records, phone records, working hours are normal. It is like she just flicked a button over night. She has a vacant look in her eyes. She she says outlandish stuff like she is unique and special. She is going to bed early. For all my investigations I cannot see evidence of an affair. That stare in her eyes is scary, like a robot. Her parents are married and after a few rough years early on they appear solid. Although my wife said the family life was a circus.she is mid30's. She now wants us to renovate the house!!! Come on this is crazy stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

larry.gray said:


> I think there are men who fall into three categories who want an open marriage.
> 
> One are cuckolds who wish to be humiliated, due to questionable mental fitness. Second are closeted gay or bisexual men who want an end round way to get another man into bed. Both of those are cool with an imbalance where the wife is getting WAY more sex than the husband is, because he's getting off on that imbalance too.
> 
> Then there are men who like swinging, and part of the deal with other people is "you only get to eff my wife/GF if I get to eff your wife/GF too". Then it's a "fair" trade and each gets some new strange in bed. Without that trade, it is considered cheating.
> 
> Now if it's the woman's idea and the guy is ho-hum on the idea, he's going to get the screwing of a lifetime. Unless he is a charming Adonis, he's only going to get a few women in bed. OTOH, his wife is going to get as many new men as she wants every week. She can hit a bar and have some man slvt take her home multiple nights a week if she wants.


I am anti open relationships and don't want to **** around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

JohnA said:


> Yea X man nailed it.
> 
> Where are her comments about no ambition and no drive coming from? Rewriting martial history is common for WS, but never the less you need to consider carefully. So what does she mean, and how does it apply to you.
> 
> So it is time to do an autopsy on you, her and your marriage.
> 
> What are the current income percentage of each of you to the household?
> What are each of yours attitude towards material things?
> What are the material things you each want?
> Child related duties how are they spilt?
> Rent or own ?
> Debt load ?
> Alcohol use and recreational drug use?
> Any disruptive habits like heavy gambling ?
> Time spent in the home together and out of the home?
> 
> How are you doing on the red flags list I posted? Add this 180 degree in feeling: 3/7 things are fine, she happy, will not cheat. Today not happy, disappointed in you, wants space.


50\50. Everything 50\50. I pay for dinners, spends a bit more on trips, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

[Her new boss is a female. QUOTE=JohnA;15189641]Look into her new boss or another upper management guy. But first plan your divorce and post divorce life. You must have an exit plan in place first and then try to save the marriage. Do not try to find a fire exit in the middle of a fire. Read @NoMoreTears4me. His marriage blew up out of the blue like your's, but he got his plan in place and today still lives in his home and has legal 50/50 custody, with actual 60/40 to him. 

Do not assume she will be better at custody. She will have and face every problem as a single parent you would. Embrace this, make it a mantra, and work at developing the skills to do so. See a lawyer on Monday/Tuesday/no later then Wednesday. Understand most states use "best interest of the child" standard and have guidelines to do so. Know these guidelines to position yourself to take advantage of them and if possible put her at a disadvantage. 

Keep your mouth shut about these plans. Understand she will is desperate to make you the fall guy, she is already rewriting history to make you a loser. Next up a lousy husband and father. 

Reach out to family and close friends. You are entering the twi-light zone, you need them to anchor you.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## eric1

What you are describing sounds a lot like an affair but it wouldn't be a shocking development that she has something wrong with her.

I also must state, as an anonymous internet person, maybe she's finally just reached her breaking point. I'm also the type that I'll put up with something for a long time and keep a decent game face but when I'm done being patient, I'm done.


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## straightshooter

Rusty,

I am guessing English is your first language, but in case it is not I am going to agai recap what your wife has done and let's stop trying to diagnose her or do anything but PAY ATTENTION AND BELIEVE WHAT SHE HAS SAID TO YOU/ It is pretty clear and easy to understand

(1) that having sex with another person while drunk or out with girlfriends is not cheating. Pretty easy to understand how screwed up that statement is, isn't it???

(2) that she would like to know if you want an open relationship because she is interested in it. Also pretty easy. She sent you a "trial balloon to see if you were stupid enough to take the bait". Had you shown any interest, you probably would have found out who she is either having sex with already or is thinking about it with.

How about reading those two things and stop playing therapist and get to the truth. Then you will have some basis for any decisions. Do you really thing now she will admit anything now that you have told her you are not interested.

Now the next time she goes out with "girlfriends" to a bar or anywhere without you, why don't you channel your energy into finding out who she is with, where she is, and get to the bottom of this instead of wondering.

Again, SHE JUST TOLD YOU CLEARLY WHAT IS IN HER MIND- BELIEVE IT!!!


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## rustybrain

Chances are you are right. But having experienced her have a facebook affair this seems different. Illogical ramblings about life, mystical figures, tarot cards, house renovations, illusions of grandeur. She got up this morning and acted completely normal like there was no previous discussions. Gave me a kiss goodbye when she went to work, cuddled into me last night in bed. I asked her what is wrong with the marriage and how come she says these things. She said something is wrong with her and not the marriage. She swears she hasn't cheated. Want to get therapy. We had a baby 9 months ago. I don't know. My gut feeling is that she hasn't cheated. Is toying with the idea obviously. Says she never mentioned divorce or cheating. She says she is feeling strange since the baby and regrets talking about cheating. I know maybe I am in denial. This looks clear cut and I am not a doormat. Said I will walk it she cheats or I find she has someone lined up. I am not a therapist. Just forget her talking about open relationships, she is also mentioning bizarre stuff about mythical creatures that look like her. Medusa??? Maybe an affair is the least of the problems ahead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## metallicaluvr

mhmm she's been having an affair


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## rustybrain

And to be clear regardless of her mental state I will walk if I find anything.just want to be sure these are not the ramblings of a mental patient.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

I must be in denial. Cannot find any evidence so far from phone records, gym records, work times, no fall in sex, cuddles at night, no stone walling. Maybe she cooled off her affair and playing a game. Anyhow good to get truthful opinions. Will play it cool and see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski

Her boss is female? That's cool.

How about _her_ boss?

And oh... you have a baby in the house?

*cough* Paternity test!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> I must be in denial. Cannot find any evidence so far from phone records, gym records, work times, no fall in sex, cuddles at night, no stone walling. Maybe she cooled off her affair and playing a game. Anyhow good to get truthful opinions. Will play it cool and see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here are the options I see:

- postpartum depression has her head all messed up and she doesn't know if she's coming or going. She needs support and maybe therapy. Does she seem depressed?

- she's been having random flings for a while that stopped because of pregnancy/childbirth and she's missing them or coming down off that high. Or trying to come to terms with doing it. She cheated on you at least once that you know about, right? What does she talk about when you talk about that affair?

- she's had relationship or commitment issues with you since the beginning. Past relationships, too, maybe. What was your early marriage like, and what were her past relationships like?

- she's in the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" phase which means she's getting ready to leave you. It could be an affair, or it could just be that she's done being married to you. When people say "the marriage has been over for some time" this is the time that they mean.

Does any of these make sense to you?


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## Kivlor

rustybrain said:


> I must be in denial. Cannot find any evidence so far from phone records, gym records, work times, no fall in sex, cuddles at night, no stone walling. Maybe she cooled off her affair and playing a game. Anyhow good to get truthful opinions. Will play it cool and see.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Rusty, I'm with most of the other posters here and think she's cheating, but it's possible she's just flirting with the idea. Her words are straight out of the cheaters handbook...


Sometimes we see things better than the BS, because we're on the outside, and we've read so many other similar stories. Sometimes we don't see it as well as the BS, because we're on the outside and lack the details and context.

Either the way she is thinking and behaving, or the marriage itself needs to change. She said she needs help, so make her set up an appointment for IC. If you're wanting to find out if she's cheating, keep digging. Have you been looking for a burner phone? A VAR in her car should get you some answers in a week or two.


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## eric1

Cuddling and increased affection are also signs of cheating. Typically the occur early in the stage when the affair is being established - the betrayed spouse will effectively over-compensate.

What I'm getting at is it could be any type of affair. This isn't her first disco with another man. She knows what is what. It could just be a guy that she talks to for ten minutes a day at work, but all the signals are laid for an affair. She might not even have his cell phone at this point.

What I'm getting at is that this is like going to the mechanic with smoke coming from the engine. All signs point to an issue with the engine but you just need to find out where it is.


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## rustybrain

Yeah . Chances are she cheated or is cheating. Will have to keep digging. But ya know she could only have been having quickies. She works from home.I come home regularly and work from home 50% of the time. She spent 3 months of the last nine in a hospital bed. She has only gone out twice with friends in 2 months . And was home at 12 midnight.I am at a loss to find who with or when she cheated. I know the couples she went out with and saw the work do pictures. The kids are in the house when she works from home. I mean you guys are prob right, but it can only be quickies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Yeah . Chances are she cheated or is cheating. Will have to keep digging. But ya know she could only have been having quickies. She works from home.I come home regularly and work from home 50% of the time. She spent 3 months of the last nine in a hospital bed. She has only gone out twice with friends in 2 months . And was home at 12 midnight.I am at a loss to find who with or when she cheated. I know the couples she went out with and saw the work do pictures. The kids are in the house when she works from home. I mean you guys are prob right, but it can only be quickies.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or she's depressed. Or self-destructive.

What was her affair like? What were her past relationships like?


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## rustybrain

marduk said:


> Or she's depressed. Or self-destructive.
> 
> What was her affair like? What were her past relationships like?


Well she once flirted with a guy 20 years her senior on facebook. It was crazy stuff. He lived 2000 miles away. And had no interest. Was a bit shocked him she contacted him. She was trying to arrange a meet for a coffee. Only met him once with myself at a bar.
She flirted and said he was hot.
So that was it.

My wife gets depressed, but regardless I wont tolerate cheating at this stage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

Gonna start digging some more. Will keep low for awhile and post later in week if I find anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding

rustybrain said:


> Well she once flirted with a guy 20 years her senior on facebook. It was crazy stuff. He lived 2000 miles away. And had no interest. Was a bit shocked him she contacted him. She was trying to arrange a meet for a coffee. Only met him once with myself at a bar.
> She flirted and said he was hot.
> So that was it.
> 
> My wife gets depressed, but regardless I wont tolerate cheating at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So was this the guy she was planning on meeting for sex per your Opening Post? If so and he had no interest, how were they planning on meeting up for sex?

Has there been anything else that you know if that shows she cheated on you?


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## eric1

rustybrain said:


> Well she once flirted with a guy 20 years her senior on facebook. It was crazy stuff. He lived 2000 miles away. And had no interest. Was a bit shocked him she contacted him. She was trying to arrange a meet for a coffee. Only met him once with myself at a bar.
> She flirted and said he was hot.
> So that was it.
> 
> My wife gets depressed, but regardless I wont tolerate cheating at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't mean to keep pressing the affair thing. If you're right and something in her snapped a little bit, then it could be something as simple as the mailroom guy at work giving her a second look as she walks by. The human brain has an incredible capacity for self-deception.


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## straightshooter

Rusty,

You do not have to dog. All you have to do is buy two VAR's. Put one in the house and one in her car and your digging will be over in probably less than 72 hours.

If she is having ANY inappropriate relationship right now, she is 100% going to be communicating somehow and now that she already knows you are suspicious, it will be more hidden. But she will NEVER suspect her car is bugged or her office at home.

Her being stationary in your home makes it easier to use the VAR than if she was moving around.

Disregard anything she said to you about she did not mean anything by what she said. You reacted negatively, she had to back track.


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## TheTruthHurts

And Rusty - the VAR might show nothing - yet. If she's BP then I've heard cheating and boundaries tend to come down during manic periods. So if she is entering that period you could be catching the leading edge of this - and maybe in time too. IDK - no personal experience with BPD. Good luck


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## Evinrude58

I feel like you are married to a pathological liar and she probably doesn't even notice when she's lying.
From what you've said, she has cheated before. And with the 20 year older guy, you know she made an attempt. Why else would she call up a "hot" stranger for "coffee"??????

You really need to use the VAR for peace of mind about your decision, and get an attorney. You say you will walk if there's cheating, but we know that's not true because it's happened in the past. She has told you she doesn't love you and is confused and doesn't know what she wants.
What else is there really to do? What difference does it make if she has mental problems or not? Pretty much every state has mental illness as grounds for divorce.

I know how you feel. I didn't want to divorce my cheating wife, either. But I did quickly, and didn't get nearly as bad of a deal as I would have if we'd signed papers a few days later. She even a couple of weeks later after we'd signed papers, got a lawyer and discussed suing me for home equity (which I took all debt in exchange for her equity which was pretty much nonexistant) and child custody just to make me pay child support. Makes no difference the land was mine when we married and I personally did most of the work building the house. It cost us about 35$ a square foot, thanks to my work. I built the whole remote garage and a workshop with my own two hands--- even poured the slab.)

I'm just suggesting you divorce now, while she may be in a fog/amicable and feeling guilty for what she's done. 
But, based on your responses, you are going to wait until HER timetable allows her to call the shots and get the most out of the divorce from you. I think she will divorce you if you decide to reconcile or not. She's basically told you she wanted out.

think about it.... All I'm asking.


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## Tobyboy

Does your wife play games on her phone? That's where I would check first. Seems fantasy is intruding into real life!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

rustybrain said:


> Gonna start digging some more. Will keep low for awhile and post later in week if I find anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Voice activated recorder under her car seat.


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## NoMoreTears4me

JohnA said:


> Read @NoMoreTears4me. His marriage blew up out of the blue like your's, but he got his plan in place and today still lives in his home and has legal 50/50 custody, with actual 60/40 to him.



I saw my name mentioned and figured I would chime in.

I have not read this entire thread so just responding to why I think I was mentioned.

Yes I was blindsided by divorce and yes my ex thought she could take me for everything I had. It did not end up that way.

So listen to the folks here it does help.

My big thing that hurt me was not doing the things I know I needed to cause I still loved my ex. I felt wrong for doing the right things.

Don't let your emotions dictate what to do. Do the things you need to protect yourself and do them now. 

Your STBX is not your friend. Words do not matter. Written statements from your lawyer. That's what matters.

Ill go back and read. But yes my situation did not end the way she wanted. She may have gotten her "freedom" but she did not take my life with her.


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## BetrayedDad

rustybrain said:


> I must be in denial.


If you don't think your wife has fvcked someone ALREADY at least once during your relationship you're in fantasyland. This POS you married is WAY to horny and comfortable for some strange to have not had someone(s) plowing her in the past. Your wife is a ho dude, plain and simple. There's no other way to put it. Time to dump this sloot and find a respectable woman. And get a battery of STD tests run on yourself ASAP.


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## Be smart

Sorry you are here my friend.

Your wife cheated on you four years ago and you think it was only EA. Both of you worked hard on your marriage since then (I guess).

Now your wife lost all respect and love for you so that is why she told you about "open marriage". She even told you in your face that she thinks she is not in love with you. Why stay with someone if they dont love you?

Your wife cheated on you AGAIN and she is planning to do it with your blessing. She just wanted to see your reaction my friend. 

She already have someone and both of them wanted to come clean with Affair so they could spend their time together openly and not be affraid of getting caught.

Talk with your lawyer and see your custody rights my friend. Divorce her and find yourself another woman who will Respect you.

Stay strong.


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## MJJEAN

To the folks recommending the VAR, I don't have the hopes for it that you do if the wife just occasionally has casual sex.

I was a WW and I did NOT do relationships. I preferred casual sex and FWB. If my exH had VAR'd my car, he'd have found nothing. I didn't talk to my AP's or even about my AP's very often. There wasn't any reason to.


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## Chaparral

I'm more concerned about her mental health in view of her recent pregnancy. She sounds like she is bouncing of the walls.

I don't remember a cheater here admit they are the one that needed therapy.

How long before she starts therapy? Try to make it so you can talk to the therapist.


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## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Well she once flirted with a guy 20 years her senior on facebook. It was crazy stuff. He lived 2000 miles away. And had no interest. Was a bit shocked him she contacted him. She was trying to arrange a meet for a coffee. Only met him once with myself at a bar.
> She flirted and said he was hot.
> So that was it.
> 
> My wife gets depressed, but regardless I wont tolerate cheating at this stage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And her past relationships before you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rustybrain

Her past relationships? Well nothing serious or long term. She did 'date' an older man in her teens that she gets angry about. She was 17 and he was 50. He was a family friend. However she considers this relationship sick now and considers that older guys a fiend who prayed on her after her brother died. She slept with 5 men before meeting me at age 23. 

Also I can find nothing. Nothing, no evidence yet of anything. Apart from her statements I have nothing yet.


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## SunCMars

MachoMcCoy said:


> Sledgehammers or nothing on this board. How is it POSSIBLE it is such a popular relationship site?



Macho McCoy, In post #36 you said the below
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marduk,
You're right. Concrete proof. I stand corrected. There is ZERO doubt she is already sleeping with someone. Please ignore everything I've said so far.
Sorry to have wasted everyone's time. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M.McCoy- Go outside, take a deep breath, blow your nose and tell us what you really believe.

Did you re-visit this page and forget what you had earlier said?

Going for the sledge hammers may be premature at this point in this unfolding saga, but I'd keep them handy. They will be needed later.


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## SunCMars

MJJEAN said:


> To the folks recommending the VAR, I don't have the hopes for it that you do if the wife just occasionally has casual sex.
> 
> I was a WW and I did NOT do relationships. I preferred casual sex and FWB. If my exH had VAR'd my car, he'd have found nothing. I didn't talk to my AP's or even about my AP's very often. There wasn't any reason to.


What would you recommend in this instance? How can he "out" this woodland deer, bring her to justice?

I have some ideas but they would be [drawn and quartered] out. To do this, and effectively would take the mindset of a Paranoid. A doubting Thomas gulping down a co*ktail of Speed and Steroids.

Or resurrected WWII intelligence agents seeking to break the Enigma Code of Deer-1 WW.

Sounds like fun!


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## GusPolinski

SunCMars said:


> Macho McCoy, In post #36 you said the below
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Marduk,
> You're right. Concrete proof. I stand corrected. There is ZERO doubt she is already sleeping with someone. Please ignore everything I've said so far.
> Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> M.McCoy- Go outside, take a deep breath, blow your nose and tell us what you really believe.
> 
> Did you re-visit this page and forget what you had earlier said?
> 
> Going for the sledge hammers may be premature at this point in this unfolding saga, but I'd keep them handy. They will be needed later.


That was sarcasm.


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## rustybrain

Still nothing. Found nothing. Trail cold. Maybe she is waiting and lying low awhile or maybe she just made some off hand remarks. 

Will give the snooping another month. Tried all the suggestions so far.


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## JohnA

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Yes, strive to live aware that infidelity is always possible but do not discount other factors. At this point I would take her comments as more of a cry for help. 

You need to seek out professional mental health providers i.e. a phd. The wild mood swings shout baby blues. The truth is if this issue is not addressed she will self medicate with alcohol, drugs, or affairs.


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## Tobyboy

Nothing on her electronics? Then chances are that if she is having an affair(lots of redflags), it's with someone that knows your schedule of when you leave home and return. 
1. Neighbor
2. Close friend(yours)
3. Your boss
4. Relative

Have you recently had any work done at your house by a contractor?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## straightshooter

Rusty,

Have the GNO and drinking stopped????

And you say you have tried everything recommended. Does that INCUDE THE VAR????

Here's one other suggestion. Tell her you are going out of town for business or to a sporting event with friends for the day, and either hire a PI or come back and go nowhere and watch the house. 

If she takes off or does anything out of the ordinary, you have another red flag, and if she heads out to a bar with girlfriends, she is up to no good.

Rusty, you understand the reaction that about 95% of men would have when their wife starts talking about an open marriage. That means unless your wife is deeply disturbed, she has to know that even bringing that up is a big deal. And remember, if she is getting advice or reading on any non monogamy forum, the advice she will get is to let it lie and then bring it up again in a different way.


----------



## JohnA

Rusty 

If you have a plumbing problem why the hell would you call an electrician??

Her family has a history of manic-depression, a recent pregnancy, and she spent 3 out of the last 9 months in a hospital bed, and told you she needs help. 

Yet your only conversation is about how to spy on her!! 

There have been more then a few posters who spent years in limbo before finally divorcing, so yes the adultery is a real possibility. But are your sure YOUR ACTIONS are not creating a seif-fulling prophecy?


----------



## MJJEAN

SunCMars said:


> What would you recommend in this instance? How can he "out" this woodland deer, bring her to justice?
> 
> I have some ideas but they would be [drawn and quartered] out. To do this, and effectively would take the mindset of a Paranoid. A doubting Thomas gulping down a co*ktail of Speed and Steroids.
> 
> Or resurrected WWII intelligence agents seeking to break the Enigma Code of Deer-1 WW.
> 
> Sounds like fun!


I'd say friends are his best chance if she does occasionally hook up. Either reading their communications or simply asking. But, again, she may not talk about hook ups with friends or only mention something near the time it happened and never talk about it again. Random hook ups, especialy if they're somewhat rare, are hard to catch.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

rustybrain said:


> Still nothing. Found nothing. Trail cold. Maybe she is waiting and lying low awhile or maybe she just made some off hand remarks.
> 
> Will give the snooping another month. Tried all the suggestions so far.



There is only the remark about open relationship itself that hints to a possible EA/PA. The remarks about your relation itself are not red flags. So there really is no sign other than that the two of you need to communicatie as partners in your relationship. Real communication. Be glad she indicates her feelings. Respond to them.

Otherwise you will end up in bigger trouble.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

eric1 said:


> Cuddling and increased affection are also signs of cheating. Typically the occur early in the stage when the affair is being established - the betrayed spouse will effectively over-compensate.


Have found exactly the opposite. Definitely not over compensation, just that the mood and happiness "buzz" is back, so they often don't have the constant bad mood and good modd at the same time, so they end up in a kind of honeymoon period with current partner, as annoying behaviour is less annoting when there are options...for a while.


----------



## SunCMars

straightshooter said:


> Rusty,
> 
> And you say you have tried everything recommended. Does that INCUDE THE VAR????
> 
> Here's one other suggestion. Tell her you are going out of town for business or to a sporting event with friends for the day, and either hire a PI or come back and go nowhere and watch the house.
> 
> If she takes off or does anything out of the ordinary, you have another red flag, and if she heads out to a bar with girlfriends, she is up to no good.


This is a great idea. However, you tell her you are going out of town for a whole weekend. Leave Friday night, return Sunday night. Give her your agenda, where, who, when, how.

Here is the important part. You must *give her enough time *to make plans with...whoever, whatever. Two weeks notice?

Have a friend email you with the particulars so she can read it, if she snoops. 

Tell her you are going deep sea fishing, hunting, skiing, a motorcycle trip, hiking...something that is believable, in your instance. Doing some rugged man things.

Before you leave make sure the VAR's are set up in your house, one in the car. 

If she carries one of those "suitcase" purses that some wives lug around, then put one VAR with lithium batteries in it. A pen VAR also comes to mind. Note: if there is some lining or seam that you can get past and insert a regular VAR in, buy one of those for the purse.

Buy trail video camera's at Gander Mountain. See who arrives at your house. Hide it good.

If after doing all this and watching her communications, nothing shows up, then go to low observation mode. Do not drive yourself nuts.

Those that call for counselling are correct. But do your homework first. 

If she cannot be trusted when you are not around, then part company.


----------



## Marduk

rustybrain said:


> Still nothing. Found nothing. Trail cold. Maybe she is waiting and lying low awhile or maybe she just made some off hand remarks.
> 
> Will give the snooping another month. Tried all the suggestions so far.


More detail, please.

Is she going out without you?

What is her browser history like?

What does she say about the whole mess?

I put the odds that this was a passing thought about you two becoming swingers at... 0%.


----------



## Tobyboy

rustybrain said:


> *Well Wife blurted out she doesn't know if she loves me*. Said she needs therapy and time to clear her head. Says she is disappointed in me because I have no ambition and no drive. She insists she has not cheated. She says that saying she wants an open relationship made her realise something is wrong. Says she doesn't know who she is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Biggest Redflag!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Well, still nothing on the affair front. She has calmed down and more back to normal now. By the way this episode lasted just 2 weeks. Like she had a mental episode. I did Find loads of tarot card sites about relationships and love on her web history. But nothing more. 
If I go away for a weekend, she has the kids. So that is not an option. She appears to want therapy on own accord. I am confused.
She hasn't gone out without me in 3 months. She insists she has not cheated, but I suppose that means nothing. 

So really maybe she cheated and stopped. Maybe she was just thinking out loud and looking for attention. Maybe she is still somehow cheating, lying and covering every single track. Or maybe she is mentally unstable.
Work colleague - Maybe. 
Friend - I doubt very much, 
Contractor - No work done lately
Neighbour - I doubt very much. If I had to choose it would be a work colleague. But this is grasping at straws. 
Tried the VAR in the car and gps logger.


----------



## EllisRedding

Sounds like you are doing everything right, not sure what else you can do. Just don't let your guard down and try to keep the communication lines open with your W.


----------



## bandit.45

Tobyboy said:


> Nothing on her electronics? Then chances are that if she is having an affair(lots of redflags), it's with someone that knows your schedule of when you leave home and return.
> 1. Neighbor
> 2. Close friend(yours)
> 3. Your boss
> 4. Relative
> 
> Have you recently had any work done at your house by a contractor?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So he just keeps digging and digging and digging and digging.....Until he works himself into an early heart attack or a padded room? No, that is no way to live. 

I'm with some of the others. I think she may have some depression that needs to be treated. Otherwise, if she is not a trustworthy partner, then all the snooping and spying in the world is not going to help him. At some point you have to have some self respect and call it quits on the espionage and just make some hard decisions.


----------



## MachoMcCoy

EllisRedding said:


> Sounds like you are doing everything right...


Except playing James Bond when his wife told him she was unhappy in her relationship. The OPPOSITE of "everything right".


----------



## EllisRedding

MachoMcCoy said:


> Except playing James Bond when his wife told him she was unhappy in her relationship. The OPPOSITE of "everything right".


I am simply referring to things now ...


----------



## straightshooter

Rusty,

The fact is very few truly ONS are ever caught. People get caught because once they get away with it they do not stop and then they make a mistake.

Just be aware, it takes some balls for a woman who is thinking straight to bring up an open relationship to her husband. Look at the effect it had on you. It sure as hell got your attention.

If you have seriously done all those things and found absolutely nothing, she may not have actually cheated but may have come close at the GNO that she came home from drunk. You also may want to pay some attention to these friends of hers because encouragement from girlfriends is what leads a lot of women down the path to cheating.

It appears either she is qualified to work for the CIA or your snooping leaves something to be desired, but the important thing is that you keep your head out of the sand and not ignore the red flags (Google the others).

This comments about open marriage came after she returned from a GNO with her friends. That is where I would guess the thought process began and if I had to take a wild stab at it I would guess one of her friends IS in an open relati0nship and while drunk told her how great it was.


----------



## WhyMe66

rustybrain said:


> Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex. We worked through that and all appeared to be fine. So 4 years on, when everything is calm and fine she blurts out that she isn't opposed to an open relationship. I was surprised. Now for me this is a big deal. I fought once for my marriage, left my pride aside and put the kids first. But now this? She says after seeing my reaction that while isn't opposed to an open relationship she would never act on this or hurt me. I am against this 100% and this is deal breaker for me. After fighting for my marriage, I now find myself contemplating divorce. I simple don't want the drama of a open relationship and have no fight left. She said she was just being honest and I have nothing to worry about. But I feel like she is planning something or has designs on someone else. She also got drunk recently and said that having sex behind someone's back is not cheating if it is meaningless. I put this down to drink talk and she said she talks crap when drunk afterwards. She doesn't get drunk often. Once at year at most. So am I over reacting? I don't want to be married to someone who wants an open relationship. I fought already for my marriage and played my part in keeping the family together. We are just back from a holiday of a lifetime. It was great and she said it was her best holiday ever. So what is going on?? Am I paranoid because of her past??? Or am I correct??


Problem! Women don't usually go for open marriages. Sounds to me like she is asking permission to cheat. She is going to, regardless. I would suggest MC since it wasn't listed in your brief history up there. No fight left may be the fuel she is using to step out.


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## rustybrain

SNAP. Got her cheating. VAR. She was having quickie hotels meets. She only admitted when I said I had proof. Told my friend, family and her parents. She went mad saying I have no right to tell her parents she cheating. Unfortunately we have no fault divorce in my country. So cheaters get off Scott free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lostinthought61

Not completely scot free....she now has to wear the monicker of cheater and that she will have to live with for the rest of her life, especially since everyone knows.


----------



## Sparta

OP sorry hear about that your situation but at least you've got the truth 
So how did you catch her.? I know it was with a VAR what did you hear her talking to the OM or telling someone else about Like a friend...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Xenote said:


> Not completely scot free....she now has to wear the monicker of cheater and that she will have to live with for the rest of her life, especially since everyone knows.


Well she cheats. Splits up the family. Have 2 kids and get 50% of my earnings. It was a long process. Gonna be a messy divorce. But I wasn't mad or paranoid. She was cheating. Hooked up with guys on swinger sites.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Sparta said:


> OP sorry hear about that your situation but at least you've got the truth
> So how did you catch her.? I know it was with a VAR what did you hear her talking to the OM or telling someone else about Like a friend...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Her cousin, and fellow cheater asked how her new 'stallion'was getting on. Wife went into graphic details. Wasn't pleasant, the truth hurt. But the truth rocks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thor

I'm sorry it came down to her being a cheater, but it is a good thing you found out.

Be sure to get a full panel STD test. Also follow the advice of your lawyer in order to maximize your outcome in the divorce.


----------



## Evinrude58

Glad you found the truth. Will be even more glad when you're hPpy again after your mind gets clear of this evil person.
Swinger sites..... Ewwww gross.

You can do better. Easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964

Damn. So sorry this happened 

Sorry if we covered this, but have you been STD tested?

Are you also sure the kids are yours?


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## rustybrain

Thanks guys. However no one wins in divorce. I believed in marriage. Didn't believe in divorce. But my wife is a narcisist. She lied brilliantly. Denied plausibly. ****ed a guy while chatted on his phone to his girlfriend. She is devoid of remorse. Says her past, my paranoia, madness made do it. She is a disgrace. But remorseless really. Divorce is the only option. My family know. Her dad believes me. Her mum is backing her and says I am a liar. I wont be playing the evidence to them. Too humiliating and I know myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rustybrain

Hope1964 said:


> Damn. So sorry this happened
> 
> Sorry if we covered this, but have you been STD tested?
> 
> Are you also sure the kids are yours?


😃 kids are mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts

That really sucks. Do Dna the kids at least to make a point and certainly to know the truth. I didn't know women actually went to swinger sites alone - figured it was mostly dudes and bots. What country are you from? Is that common?


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## rustybrain

For anyone in similar situation. My wife was very cautious. Did everything right. But got ****y. Saw I had cooled on the questions. Thought she had won. Her cousin enabled this set up. With her encouragement and stealth my wife has met and ****ed many more men. I gave her space and time. She used it to ****. But that is the price of gaining the truth. Now I have to prepare for a messy divorce
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hope1964

Ya, you should DNA the kids and make her sorry a$$ pay for it.

Don't even engage with her family about it.

Have you seen a lawyer? That should probably be your first stop. Even before the dr. office for that STD testing. Which she should also pay for.

Again, I am very sorry this has happened.


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## Hope1964

Oh, and don't forget to take care of yourself. Eat, do not drink booze, exercise, sleep. Don't be afraid to ask for temporary sleep aid at the dr office.


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## rustybrain

Thanks for support. VAR is the way to go. Mobile spyware found nothing. She was using swing site to post messages.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

I'm sorry to hear. Many of us suspected this, but please believe none of us wished for it to be true.

Divorce quickly. Expose to who you need to. Use the proof to ensure you get a reasonable divorce.

Once the paper is signed, expose the cousin and her partner(s) far and wide.


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## MachoMcCoy

Well I'll be damned.


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## bandit.45

I'm sorry Rusty. But I'm glad you know the truth and are empowered now. I do agree with the others that you need to get a full STD workup done. I hope things go smoothly for you in the divorce. 

Oh, and to hell with her parents.

By the way, start doing the 180 also to begin detaching. And expect her to at some point come to you asking for reconciliation. Sometimes desperate cheaters do that. She won't mean it, so just ignore it when it happens.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Hmmmm wow so all along she just wanted to "share" this with you and swing with you? Wow I'll bet that's her perspective. Huh... I bet she twists it around as her being more open and less sexually "closed minded" but you couldn't take it. Be ready for that. 

If it goes that way, ignore it and just stick to the truth which is that her guilt about cheating caused her to blurt the open marriage comment to justify it.

Crazy the level of betrayal and deceit some people feel entitled to. I'm sure she has no idea what that betrayal does to someone. I would definitely liberally spread around the truth about her cousin as well since they have no problem destroying someone else's family.


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## rustybrain

Update: Wife is now remorseless. I am too blame. I made her do it. I am a abuser for telling my family she cheated. But wait her parents rang. Said I needed therapy for using a VAR. Said I was paranoid. So I told what really happened. They went nuts. Wife went nuts. Said I was abusing her character. She has not even told the full truth as she has no idea what I know. She had momentary remorse. Now she says I don't earn enough. Everything I did That ever hurt her is brought up. Some of thus stuff 12 years ago. I never cheated btw. Is this aggressive response normal for a cheater? She has no empathy. Does not see the impact of her actions. I wants a quick divorce. She does not. Has anyone dated a sociopath?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

It's normal for a disordered person. 

Whatever cluster B disorder she has, you are better to be far clear of her.

You have now exposed. I would not engage her or her family any longer.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch

Here... Presto, Change-o, DARVO: Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender



That's twice today...


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## bandit.45

Start detaching. Begin the 180. Start downsizing your life, get rid of the flotsam and things you don't need, and start packing up. Get the lawyer going and start to tear yourself out of the marriage. 

She is a lost cause.


----------



## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> SNAP. Got her cheating. VAR. She was having quickie hotels meets. She only admitted when I said I had proof. Told my friend, family and her parents. She went mad saying I have no right to tell her parents she cheating. Unfortunately we have no fault divorce in my country. So cheaters get off Scott free.


Just because you have no fault divorce there doesn't mean that you can't divorce citing infidelity, and ESPECIALLY if you have proof that you can use to make your case.


----------



## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> Update: Wife is now remorseless. I am too blame. I made her do it. I am a abuser for telling my family she cheated. But wait her parents rang. Said I needed therapy for using a VAR. Said I was paranoid. So I told what really happened. They went nuts. Wife went nuts. Said I was abusing her character. She has not even told the full truth as she has no idea what I know. She had momentary remorse. Now she says I don't earn enough. Everything I did That ever hurt her is brought up. Some of thus stuff 12 years ago. I never cheated btw. Is this aggressive response normal for a cheater? She has no empathy. Does not see the impact of her actions. I wants a quick divorce. She does not. Has anyone dated a sociopath?


Don't engage. When she starts flinging sh*t at you, just smile, shake your head, and say, "Nope. It's all you."


----------



## farsidejunky

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

And walk away.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## sscygni

rustybrain said:


> Hmmm. I am against divorce, but there is only so much I can put up with. She is very smart and has learned from the past that Internet activity can get you caught. So I checked her cell phone and found nothing suspicious. Of course she just has to delete recent activity and incoming or out going call history. She definitely would have the know how to do these basic things. Red flags maybe, but why would she bother tell she isn't opposed to an open relationship? She says she is anti divorce and loves me. That she would only ever engage in an open relationship with my consent and was been honest. But your right, it is suspicious.


Deleted histories themselves are telling. If it is obvious that she has been cleaning up her internet browsing history and chat logs (meaning there is surprisingly LITTLE history there), that should be a red flag in and of itself.


----------



## GusPolinski

My BIL used to play this all the time...

https://youtu.be/7GgxKheZwfA

Might make an interesting ringtone for her phone.

And startup sound for her computer.

And CD for her car.

*cough* convert2mp3.net - Online Video converter - Convert Youtube, Dailymotion, Vevo, Clipfish and MyVideo videos online to MP3, MP4 and more formats - download your music for free

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## knobcreek

sscygni said:


> Deleted histories themselves are telling. If it is obvious that she has been cleaning up her internet browsing history and chat logs (meaning there is surprisingly LITTLE history there), that should be a red flag in and of itself.


If nothing else you should consider divorce because the person deleting their history is too stupid to use incognito mode.

As for if my wife asked for an open marriage? I would ask for a closed divorce... That's basically saying "_I dislike banging you, I find you ugly and unappealing and I want to find someone I'm actually attracted to, BUT I like how you pay the bills and take the kids around on the weekend while I get pedi's and mimosa's with my friends, so let's keep that going"._


----------



## GusPolinski

sscygni said:


> Deleted histories themselves are telling. If it is obvious that she has been cleaning up her internet browsing history and chat logs (meaning there is surprisingly LITTLE history there), that should be a red flag in and of itself.





knobcreek said:


> If nothing else you should consider divorce because the person deleting their history is too stupid to use incognito mode.
> 
> As for if my wife asked for an open marriage? I would ask for a closed divorce... That's basically saying "_I dislike banging you, I find you ugly and unappealing and I want to find someone I'm actually attracted to, BUT I like how you pay the bills and take the kids around on the weekend while I get pedi's and mimosa's with my friends, so let's keep that going"._


Recap of the last 2-3 pages of the thread --

She's cheating. Buncha random dudes via swinger site(s). He caught her w/ a VAR. Her cousin -- also a wayward -- encouraged her and helped her to arrange it. He's exposed to his family and hers, and they're divorcing.

Also, she's your textbook entitled wayward. It's super charming.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clay2013

rustybrain said:


> Has anyone dated a sociopath?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First off I am really sorry for what your going through. No one deserves it. She is blaming you because its the easy thing todo. 

My xW was and still is crazy. She changes guys like they are just another day in the week. You can not even calmly talk to her about the impact it has on her life or our children. When I kicked her out and filed for divorce her mother called me up and told me it was my fault she cheated on me. I just told her mother its clear the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I knew she had been cheating on her husband as well. The best thing I ever did for myself was to limit all contact with them. I blocked her family completely. I then change my home number and mailed my xW a certified letter stating the only time she was to call is if there was a emergency. If she called for anything else It would be ignored. She failed at that and we moved to writing certified letters once a month. 

This was the only way I could really start to heal and process. 

I would divorce her as quickly as possible and do everything you can to limit any interactions with her until she is out or you are.

C


----------



## threelittlestars

Wow, what a journey you have had. You went super stealth and nailed her. 

Guard that evidence. NEVER destroy. I can't really understand why after so much abuse from your ex wife and her parents that you don't actually show them the evidence. Why not upload it everywhere you can, provided you cannot be jailed or fined for slander. 

I am so sorry for what a ***** your wife is. I can't believe her lack of shame, but then again she is a narcissist. 

Tell your wife if she does not fairly settle in the divorce you will exposed everything. Including the other men to their wives and not just you will be pissed at her. she will have a horde of other BS hating her. 

I wish you well in the months to come. What a terrible person you married. 

She is deeply shamed and horrified that you have exposed her fantasy life that she strikes out at you in any way she can. When she asked for an open marriage she was really trying to appease her conscience and her fear of you finding out about her extracurricular activities. She did not want a divorce. If you had not gone nuclear she would be probably faking her remorse and apologizing and trying to make you get over the whole hoe'ing thing... 

She really is a piece of work. 

I propose more exposure if it can't be used as leverage to a better divorce agreement. Get out FAST! and take the kids if you can. Her life style is a danger to small children.


----------



## lil.powershell

eric1 said:


> It's not just communcations apps like WhatsApp, Kik, Instagran, Twitter DMs, Facebook, Snapchat, etc but apps that have the ability to chat but that's not theit core feature. Stuff like Trivia Crack, *Clash of Clans*, etc. Hell I even know of a cheater wife whose affair partner setup a private Minecraft server so that they could communicate. Her husband never even had a red flag even kind of raised, he just saw his wife playing stupid Minecraft.


Yep, this is my situation. Husband plays Clash of Clans CONSTANTLY, like 4-6 hrs a day. He has not slept in the same bed with me in over 2 months. Says he just keeps falling asleep on the couch. I've brought up separation a couple times and he gets distraught, cries, says he's going to kill himself. But he does have a history of chatting with other women. I'd be gone already if it weren't for our 2 kids (ages 1 and 2).


----------



## niceguy28

lil.powershell said:


> Yep, this is my situation. Husband plays Clash of Clans CONSTANTLY, like 4-6 hrs a day. He has not slept in the same bed with me in over 2 months. Says he just keeps falling asleep on the couch. I've brought up separation a couple times and he gets distraught, cries, says he's going to kill himself. But he does have a history of chatting with other women. I'd be gone already if it weren't for our 2 kids (ages 1 and 2).


I'm sorry but your husband sounds like a total loser. Your kids are young enough to where this probably won't affect them as much. If he kills himself then that's on him. It sounds harsh but you don't need to be black mailed. Here's something to think about. He is willing to take his life if you leave him but he's not willing to put down the stupid game in order for you to stay. Have you given him an ultimatum? If you have then get your kids and leave.


----------



## convert

MachoMcCoy said:


> Except playing James Bond when his wife told him she was unhappy in her relationship. The OPPOSITE of "everything right".


playing James bond was the only thing that got him the truth


----------



## GusPolinski

MachoMcCoy said:


> Except playing James Bond when his wife told him she was unhappy in her relationship. The OPPOSITE of "everything right".


----------



## eric1

lil.powershell said:


> Yep, this is my situation. Husband plays Clash of Clans CONSTANTLY, like 4-6 hrs a day. He has not slept in the same bed with me in over 2 months. Says he just keeps falling asleep on the couch. I've brought up separation a couple times and he gets distraught, cries, says he's going to kill himself. But he does have a history of chatting with other women. I'd be gone already if it weren't for our 2 kids (ages 1 and 2).




The second someone says they're killing themselves call 911.

You may think you are, but you're not equipped to handle either a suicidal person or a person who threatens suicide to manipulate you.


----------



## rustybrain

One year on from having caught my 'wife' cheating with multiple men. So in the weeks and months after catching her, my wife embarked on an strategy of denial and false allegations. She applied for a separation on the grounds that i forced her to sleep with men, i was emotionally and physically abusive. That i was keeping her in the house after her will. It was bizarre stuff. She was in a blind rage for months after being caught. Picking fights, etc. She tried to financially destroy me. She threw herself on the ground one day and threatened to call the police. She would then blame me for catching her cheating. Called me names etc. I just observed and learned to play numb. Eventually she moved out. She tried to take kids. But the girls rebelled and i have them 50% of the time. Although she ringings constantly when i have them. And she tries to undermine my time with them by arranging play dates on my days. I stopped this. So has anyone out ever come across a cheater and liar catch red handed and completely turn the tables? I mean she raged when i caught her. No apology. No empathy for the kids or me. She is even making the divorce process very difficult even though she cheated and has left the family home. She is back on tinder under an alias. Yet she wont agree to fair divorce terms. She also tried to stop me from exposing she cheated. She keeps changing the rules. How do i deal with a narcistic female who doesnt care?


----------



## itsontherocks

rustybrain said:


> Hi, I am posting here just to see if I am over reacting to my wife's suggestions that we engage in an open relationship. Btw a few years ago I found her having a facebook affair and planning to meet a guy for sex. We worked through that and all appeared to be fine. So 4 years on, when everything is calm and fine she blurts out that she isn't opposed to an open relationship. I was surprised. Now for me this is a big deal. I fought once for my marriage, left my pride aside and put the kids first. But now this? She says after seeing my reaction that while isn't opposed to an open relationship she would never act on this or hurt me. I am against this 100% and this is deal breaker for me. After fighting for my marriage, I now find myself contemplating divorce. I simple don't want the drama of a open relationship and have no fight left. She said she was just being honest and I have nothing to worry about. But I feel like she is planning something or has designs on someone else. She also got drunk recently and said that having sex behind someone's back is not cheating if it is meaningless. I put this down to drink talk and she said she talks crap when drunk afterwards. She doesn't get drunk often. Once at year at most. So am I over reacting? I don't want to be married to someone who wants an open relationship. I fought already for my marriage and played my part in keeping the family together. We are just back from a holiday of a lifetime. It was great and she said it was her best holiday ever. So what is going on?? Am I paranoid because of her past??? Or am I correct??


Nothing good can come out of an open marriage. I'd speak to a lawyer to go over your options. She may be cheating already.. It's always better to be prepared just in case. You know the old saying, carry a bazooka and hope you never have to use it. In your case, the bazooka is filing for divorce. Also, keep some money on the side away from your lovely wife. Sorry you have to go through this. I know and feel your pain.


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## rustybrain

No this this a year on from catching her. I won the battle over the family home. But i cannot shake my ex off. She seems intent on dedtroying me even though she cheated and then left family home. She is manic as usual for the month of May. She says i should be friends with her and then does something outrageous or bizarre. Has anyone dealt with a dangerous narcissistic female? She is playing this endgame like a chess match. How do i cut off nacissist with whom i had 2 kid with??


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## NoChoice

You cannot deal with them any more than you can any spoiled 6 yo throwing a tantrum. It is not possible. Her mind never developed to the point of being able to have empathy, understanding and the ability to reason. She is a child mentally and you can expect that type of behavior from her throughout your involvement in her life. There is no reasoning with her and there will be no rational behavior from her.

She has no ability to conceptualize that which you and I see as fundamental. Her life is about her, her fun, her pleasure, her happiness. To her she is the center of the universe and all else is here to service her, the planet, the people, everything.

I regret to say this but I feel it would actually be better for the children if they were not exposed to her any more than is absolutely unavoidable. She is only mother to them biologically. Emotionally she is probably less developed than they are. What will they learn/glean from that? It is indeed tragic and I wish you strength and good fortune.


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## Marc878

rustybrain said:


> No this this a year on from catching her. I won the battle over the family home. But i cannot shake my ex off. She seems intent on dedtroying me even though she cheated and then left family home. She is manic as usual for the month of May. She says i should be friends with her and then does something outrageous or bizarre. Has anyone dealt with a dangerous narcissistic female? She is playing this endgame like a chess match. How do i cut off nacissist with whom i had 2 kid with??


You can control you. Never answer a phone call direct. Only respond to text or email about kids or business only. Ignore anything else.

Pickups/drop offs should be a 5 minute exercise with zero engagement. 

She's not your friend. Don't even go there.

Read up
https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Evinrude58

Just had to say I feel bad for you. Your bat s crazy ex is a piece of work. One for the record books.
It's a shame you can't get video and audio of her shenanigans and sue her ass off for emotional abuse and trying you ruin you financially.

It's like the legal system lives these people.


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## farsidejunky

@Uptown


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## GusPolinski

rustybrain said:


> One year on from having caught my 'wife' cheating with multiple men. So in the weeks and months after catching her, my wife embarked on an strategy of denial and false allegations. She applied for a separation on the grounds that i forced her to sleep with men, i was emotionally and physically abusive. That i was keeping her in the house after her will. It was bizarre stuff. She was in a blind rage for months after being caught. Picking fights, etc. She tried to financially destroy me. She threw herself on the ground one day and threatened to call the police. She would then blame me for catching her cheating. Called me names etc. I just observed and learned to play numb. Eventually she moved out. She tried to take kids. But the girls rebelled and i have them 50% of the time. Although she ringings constantly when i have them. And she tries to undermine my time with them by arranging play dates on my days. I stopped this. So has anyone out ever come across a cheater and liar catch red handed and completely turn the tables? I mean she raged when i caught her. No apology. No empathy for the kids or me. She is even making the divorce process very difficult even though she cheated and has left the family home. She is back on tinder under an alias. Yet she wont agree to fair divorce terms. She also tried to stop me from exposing she cheated. She keeps changing the rules. How do i deal with a narcistic female who doesnt care?


Document EVERYTHING.

Cameras in your home, a camera overlooking your driveway, and a VAR in your pocket AT. ALL. TIMES.

Save every voicemail, e-mail, and text. Take every call on speaker and record it. If your state has one-party wiretapping statutes, record every phone call; if two-party, still record every call but let her know at the onset of every call that you're recording it.

Was her cousin's behavior exposed to her BH as well?

180, 180, and more 180.


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## GuyInColorado

Yup, record everything. Who has more money? You can make her life miserable with a good and expensive attorney. You need to do whatever you have to in order to get 100% custody and vanish.


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## Vulcan2013

I believe there is a book called "Splitting" about divorcing a PD stbx. Expect a lot of conflict. Find ways to avoid getting pulled into her drama.


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## Absurdist

farsidejunky said:


> @Uptown


 Absolutely. This BPD behavior to the nth degree.


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## jlg07

rustybrain said:


> One year on from having caught my 'wife' cheating with multiple men. So in the weeks and months after catching her, my wife embarked on an strategy of denial and false allegations. She applied for a separation on the grounds that i forced her to sleep with men, i was emotionally and physically abusive. That i was keeping her in the house after her will. It was bizarre stuff. She was in a blind rage for months after being caught. Picking fights, etc. She tried to financially destroy me. She threw herself on the ground one day and threatened to call the police. She would then blame me for catching her cheating. Called me names etc. I just observed and learned to play numb. Eventually she moved out. She tried to take kids. But the girls rebelled and i have them 50% of the time. Although she ringings constantly when i have them. And she tries to undermine my time with them by arranging play dates on my days. I stopped this. So has anyone out ever come across a cheater and liar catch red handed and completely turn the tables? I mean she raged when i caught her. No apology. No empathy for the kids or me. She is even making the divorce process very difficult even though she cheated and has left the family home. She is back on tinder under an alias. Yet she wont agree to fair divorce terms. She also tried to stop me from exposing she cheated. She keeps changing the rules. How do i deal with a narcistic female who doesnt care?


SHE doesn't get to change any rules. Stick with your plan to D and ignore all the **** she pulls. Just do NOT communicate with her for anything other than the kids or divorce. Keep a record of all the crap she is saying and doing. Use that var to record her rantings and see if your lawyer can use this to limit her access to the kids. They don't really need to be exposed to her self centered manipulations. Very sorry you are going through this.


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## Lostinthought61

Hey Rusty, i am so happy to see how strong you are staying for your well-being and more importantly that of the children....as no choice mentioned, you are dealing with someone with immaturity issue and quite possibly a serious mental issue. I suspect that based on her behavior that she could potentially do harm to you or the kids, and i would seriously consider putting a restraining order against her if she continues in similar and worse behavior. I would also consider getting couseling for your kids, not so much in them dealing with this divorce but more importantly in getting them to open up on what their mom might be doing when yo are not there....and the reason i say that is if a counselor is hearing from the kids themselves that she is creating an unhealthy environment for them then the counselor has to report that to the state, and at that point she becomes a state issue.


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## Uptown

@*farsidejunky*, thanks so much for the callout. I did not notice last night that Rusty just returned to give us a one-year update.

Rusty, if your STBXW exhibits strong symptoms of NPD (Narcissistic PD) as you believe, she likely exhibits strong traits of at least one other PD -- such as BPD -- as well. On top of that, she would have an 80% chance of also having one or two "clinical" (non-PD) disorders such as bipolar, depression, or anxiety. I mention this because some of the behaviors you describe go well beyond NPD symptoms. 

For example, whereas narcissistic people tend to be emotionally stable, you are describing a woman who is periodically very unstable. This is why @*JohnA* (post 138) and I (post 140) suggested a year ago that, if you had been seeing this unstable behavior prior to her pregnancy/postpartum periods, the two most common causes for persistent instability are BPD and Bipolar Disorder. Given what you've said more recently, the warning signs sound much closer to BPD. 

You thus seem to be describing warning signs for NPD (e.g., the lying, feeling of entitlement, absence of empathy for you and the children, and cold manipulations) and BPD (e.g., the instability, intense rages, and lack of impulse control). If she really does exhibit strong NPD traits, the BPD traits would not be surprising. A recent study found that 41% of female narcissists also exhibit full-blown BPD. As to her serial cheating, that is a symptom for HPD (Histrionic PD) but the APA is in the process of eliminating that "disorder." Because HPD traits overlap greatly with BPD traits and, to a lesser extent, with NPD traits, HPD is essentially being folded in together with BPD.

If this possibility of having multiple disorders seems strange, please keep in mind that the 157 mental disorders defined in the diagnostic manual are only patterns of behavior. Until the scientific community identifies the underlying cause of PDs and other mental "disorders," they cannot identify the disorder itself. Moreover, nobody knows whether all ten PDs are caused by the same disorder, by five separate disorders, or perhaps by dozens of disorders. This inability to identify the disorder is the main reason that NPD, BPD, and other PDs cannot be cured. Nobody can identify a specific disorder to cure.

Instead of providing a true diagnosis (i.e., identifying the characteristics of the disorder causing the PD symptoms), the APA's "Diagnostic Manual" merely identifies the behavioral symptoms arising from that assumed (unidentified) disorder. The result is that PD therapies do not eliminate the disorder but, rather, teach people how to manage their own symptoms. 



rustybrain said:


> How do i deal with a narcissistic female who doesn't care?


Rusty, I offer several suggestions:

*First, *see an experienced psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on whether your W is exhibiting strong NPD and BPD traits as you seem to describe here. This is important because the latest study on BPD heritability indicates that, when one Parent has full-blown BPD, each child has roughly a 30% chance of developing it. (Earlier studies had found figures of 20% to 30% but all these figures are only suggestive, not definitive, because study sample sizes are so small.) As a responsible parent, your first action should be to determine the risk confronting your children. 

*Second*, consult with a divorce attorney who is experienced in dealing with child custody cases against a very vindictive spouse. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce and custody battle likely be get very nasty very quickly. It would be prudent to supplement that advice with tips offered by the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. 

*Third*, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful are the _"Detaching from a Borderline"_ board and _"Co-Parenting after the Split"_ board.

*Fourth*, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

*Fifth*, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). If you've been married to a BPDer for several years, you likely are an excessive caregiver like me.

*Sixth*, if you decide that your W has strong NPD and BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a narcissist, she won't believe it. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not the one you visit for yourself) and let him decide what to tell her.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn

rustybrain said:


> No this this a year on from catching her. I won the battle over the family home. But i cannot shake my ex off. She seems intent on dedtroying me even though she cheated and then left family home. She is manic as usual for the month of May. She says i should be friends with her and then does something outrageous or bizarre. Has anyone dealt with a dangerous narcissistic female? She is playing this endgame like a chess match. How do i cut off nacissist with whom i had 2 kid with??


You can't deal with her on crazy terms. Only a judge threatening her with stripped sunshine will stop her. Or not. It's her call. 

All you can do is protect yourself. When around her keep a VAR on at all times and discreet video recorder. For cell phone calls use a Olympus TP-8 Telephone Pick-up Microphone. She is a week away from punching herself in the face saying you did it. You need a tape of it. Then file for a order of protection.


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## Cynthia

rustybrain said:


> No this this a year on from catching her. I won the battle over the family home. But i cannot shake my ex off. She seems intent on dedtroying me even though she cheated and then left family home. She is manic as usual for the month of May. She says i should be friends with her and then does something outrageous or bizarre. Has anyone dealt with a dangerous narcissistic female? She is playing this endgame like a chess match. How do i cut off nacissist with whom i had 2 kid with??


Google this: grey rock narcissist.

There are books on Amazon about divorcing a narcissist. I'd read a couple of those as well.


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## rustybrain

Thank you all for the advice and suppport. I must admit to being confused and a bit scared of my ex 's moods and unpredictability. She agree to a roster for girls and then does a u turn and asks if she can spend a few hours with them on my day also. If even just some small percentage of what members on tam say is true my ex is going try to dedtroy me completely. And why do i feel guilty when she texts me saying i destroyed everything and she is the victim??? So her family asked me what was going on. I told one of her inlaws. They told her family. My ex told them i was a stalker and dangerous. Jowever i hear they are doubtful of her version but are just shocked at the weirdness of it all. One day she was 'calm' and told me at age 16 she dated a guy for 6 years. He was 53 years. Then in the next sentence she said i was a low earner, i have a decent job, and my losing my looks. I turned 40 recently. I dont know how to handle this madness. I get anxious, depressed and yhen feel guilty that i am getting on with my life. I constantly have to fight for 50% custody and we are in and out settlement talks. Every march to may she changes into a real piece of work. If she has BPD i am in trouble.


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## rustybrain

Just to show how strange she gets as summer approaches Sex was great with her. But she was detached during it. She wrote a novel in 1 month. It was a tragic story, full of sex scenes. Didnt get published. She developed infatuations with work colleagues.She went for a job interview. Studied 2 weeks for it and got it. The same week she ****ed 3 guys in 3 days. She ****ed a guy then visits my sister in hospital. She ****s a guys then does an exam the next morning. And passed it. She opens fake facebook, twitter, tinder, snap chat, swingers and kik profiles. She masterbates in her work shower while steaming online to swingers. She then ring her cousin up and boasts about meeting a guy with a massive penis. She mentions 7 men's shed meet already. She tells me image is important to her and that nobody will believe she cheated. It goes on and on. Also what I forgot to day that when my lawyer investigated her finances, we found 4 separate bank accounts 100,000 in savings. I only knew of 30,000 and 2 account. So what is this madness? My sister reckon she is sociopath.


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## rustybrain

All that stuff about BPD is scary. I want a to hide.


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## rustybrain

Evinrude58 said:


> Just had to say I feel bad for you. Your bat s crazy ex is a piece of work. One for the record books.
> It's a shame you can't get video and audio of her shenanigans and sue her ass off for emotional abuse and trying you ruin you financially.
> 
> It's like the legal system lives these people.



😉 audio of her boasting about Bedding 5 men only.


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## phillybeffandswiss

rustybrain said:


> J Also what I forgot to day that when my lawyer investigated her finances, we found 4 separate bank accounts 100,000 in savings. I only knew of 30,000 and 2 account..


See this right here? This is ALL THAT MATTERS to you out of the entire posts. You are divorcing so who, where, why, how and what no longer concern you when it comes to her personal life. Minus kids, divorce and your safety stop worrying about her behavior.


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