# At an impasse over spouse spending time with opposite sex colleague.



## Reggiethelion

Hello, I would like other's thoughts. I have been married for a decade, kids, both of us in early-mid thirties. Recently, my wife began running again to get in shape, which I thought was great. Problem for me is she has chosen a single male colleague-with whom she already spends 8 hours a day-as her running partner. He is in his mid twenties. They run together 5 times a week-3 days after work and on the weekends. I don't suspect infidelity at this point, rather I think he is genuinely just a convenient running partner and my wife wants to get in shape. But it still bothers me quite a bit. So I told my wife that I thought it was inappropriate for her to be running alone 5 times a week with a single male. She disagrees. We have had two significant arguments, one very serious with her storming out in tears at 11pm and coming back an hour later over the issue. I am more upset that she won't just stop because I want her to than because of the actual issue at this point, because I feel if the tables were turned I would do so for her. She says she has committed to training with this person for a race and if she backed out now it would look terrible at work. I have said some hurtful things out of anger over the issue, which I later told her I didn't really mean. Our relationship is seriously affected, we are avoiding open hostility but we have been basically communicating on a superficial level for several weeks. I really don't know what to do. She won't stop, and I won't become ok with what she is doing. Any ideas?


----------



## eowyn

Few Questions:

Are there any other red flags? 
Is this man committed/married? 
How long do they know each other? 
Have you met him? 
Is he involved in any other social activity with your wife other than running?
Are they training for a marathon? Is there a timeline?
Have you considered joining them for some sessions, on weekends etc? 
Has your wife cheated on you with EA/PA in the past?
Have you cheated on your wife?


----------



## Reggiethelion

Are there any other red flags?

*We have other minor issues, but I don't think there are other red flags*

Is this man committed/married?

*Other guy is single since last fall*

How long do they know each other?

*About a year*

Have you met him?

*Yes*

Is he involved in any other social activity with your wife other than running?

*Not outside of work functions*

Are they training for a marathon? Is there a timeline?

*Yes, 4 months or so*

Have you considered joining them for some sessions, on weekends etc?

*It wouldn't really work because I am not at their level, and no one to watch the kids*

Has your wife cheated on you with EA/PA in the past?
Have you cheated on your wife? 

*No cheating by either of us in the past on each other, but 13 years ago, my wife left her then boyfriend of 3 years for me, and we started off as friends doing athletic pursuits....*
*I don't think it is an emotional affair, even less likely that it is a physical affair, but I worry it may move in that direction, especially because of the tension it is causing our relationship. I think I feel very hurt because I feel if the tables were turned-if I was doing this with a 25 year old single colleage, I would feel it was very inappropriate, and if she asked me I would stop immediately. I told her this and she disagrees. I understand her point of view, and I understand why she feels she can't stop now, but we are really just at an impasse. I am trying to not make it an issue, but I feel like our relationship has just gone cold over it. *


----------



## Entropy3000

Well, I understand her dedicating herself to running.
I like to powerlift. I typically train four days a week. I do this solo however. If I had a training partner there is no way that partner would be a woman, let alone a single woman. Yeah I know I am talking about powerlifting but my point is that no matter what the activity was, whether it be biking, running or bird watching, me spending that kind of time with another woman is just going to bond me closely with her. My wife would not stand for that and it would be a non starter for me if she had any activity like that with a male co-worker.

Workplace affairs happen when a pair bond at work and the bond us especially close if they are working to achieve a common goal. This happened to me. Now these two have an extracuricular activity together. Are they a pair all of the time or do they run with others as a group?

How much time do you have to bond with your wife alone? Who is with the kids when she is training? 

This seems inappropriate. It seems like she is setting herself up for a relationship that is potentially going to cause your marriage problems.
I think this would be awesome for both of them if they were both single.
Is he divorced.

A big red flag is her not wanting to respect your wishes. Strictly speaking that is a level of unfaithfulness right there. I get that she wants to see this through. I get that it is important ot her. The fact this is a point of contention between you two now pushes more towards the OM. 

There actually may be a bond between them now. This will get much much closer as time goes on.

I realize there will be a race, but I would assume there will be other races after that. Maybe even some travel to races and so on. This is somewhat of a separate life style for her. I doubt this will be a one and done for her. Have you asked her?

The male co-worker aside how much pressure does her running put on the marriage if any on its own? Is her running five days a week in an of itself an issue for you?

FWIW, I think storming out and leaving is a bit too much drama.

Do you think she discusses you marriage with him at all. Do they email each other of text one another?


----------



## Reggiethelion

We have minimal time alone. We have multiple kids, both work, in a city with no family. I have the kids when she is training. I have no problem with her running, I support it. I just think she should have a female running partner. Her not being willing respect my wishes is my big problem with this whole thing. I really don't see a solution to this, because neither of us will back down. 
Storming out is too much drama, but that is just her, its who she is.


----------



## Hopefull363

How long until the race that she's committed too? Would she be willing to drop him as her running partner after the race?


----------



## Reggiethelion

A little over 3 months at this point. I really don't know if she will drop him as a running partner after the race. I will ask in the morning.


----------



## Entropy3000

Reggiethelion said:


> We have minimal time alone. We have multiple kids, both work, in a city with no family. I have the kids when she is training. I have no problem with her running, I support it. I just think she should have a female running partner.


Then you know what you must do. If this is your boundary you need to tell her that her spending this kind of time with this guy is not acceptable to you.

I honestly think you are being nice enough of a guy willing to do your share of the work and then watch the kids while she runs. That is being supportive. It feels a tad funny though that your watching the kids so she can do this activity with this guy. Tell her you will support her running but she needs to find a female partner to train with. 

Do not argue about this. It is not that you want to convince her over time to change her mind. This is your boundary and you will not support her doing this running with this guy. The problem is not that she is having an EA with him. It is that she is bonding with him and spending too many hours with him and not you. Yes this could become an EA/PA.

Again this is not a short term thing. This is likely from now on. 

I suspect you will get a lot of folks that say you should just trust her. I don't think this is about trust. I think this is about choice. I see this as a very dangerous choice.


----------



## Reggiethelion

Do you think she discusses you marriage with him at all. Do they email each other of text one another? 
I don't know, I doubt it, but it is one on one for them for about 5 hours a week, so they might. The email and call one another, but she isn't trying to hide it, and all the emails and calls appear to be work related and appropriate.


----------



## Entropy3000

Reggiethelion said:


> A little over 3 months at this point. I really don't know if she will drop him as a running partner after the race. I will ask in the morning.


Why would she? I suspect by then you will be less of a priority for her. But who knows. She basically told you no she is not concerned about your feelings here. Bonds occur much faster than three months especially when you see someone seven days a week for a lot of hours.

Have you guys done any boundary setting as it pertains to the opposite sex? His Needs Her Needs?

I see the biggest problem is that you went along with this from the beginning. The time to have said no to this was before it started.

It sounds to me like you feel you have no veto power here. Is that how you see it? My wife and I have veto power.

So this is not unlike her having a male personal trainer. The nuance here is that he is already a co-worker / friend she spends eight hours a day with.
Wow seven days a week for many months on end. Just wow.


----------



## Reggiethelion

Entropy3000 said:


> I suspect you will get a lot of folks that say you should just trust her. I don't think this is about trust. I think this is about choice. I see this as a very dangerous choice.


I agree completely, I see it as about her respecting my boundaries and what I see as an inappropriate choice, she sees it as me not trusting her. That is why we are stuck.


----------



## Reggiethelion

Entropy3000 said:


> Have you guys done any boundary setting as it pertains to the opposite sex? His Needs Her Needs?
> 
> I see the biggest problem is that you went along with this from the beginning. The time to have said no to this was before it started.
> 
> It sounds to me like you feel you have no veto power here. Is that how you see it?


I didn't go along with it from the beginning, it was supposed to be a running group but all the other people dropped out/couldn't keep up. I have no veto power, I tried very directly, and she has decided this is what she is doing. I am not at the point where I am going to leave over this, but I don't feel like I have veto power at this point, no.


----------



## Bambusa

Do you trust her? 

If so then it might be worth looking into yourself to solve the problem. If you don't, then you might need to ask yourself if you want to be with someone you don't trust.

It is possible for people of the opposite sex to have plutonic friendships. 

I have male friends and my husband has female friends. I would never cheat on my husband because that is part of my core set of values and I believe the same of him.

Our friendships are as a result of years of working together, friends of friends etc. Not because there is an sexual attraction.

So it is my belief that if you feel you can trust someone 100% or they have not given you reason not to trust them and they have not behaved disrespectfully in that plutonic relationship and you still feel threatened by it, then it could be an issue with your own self esteem or something else that needs addressing within yourself.

If what you are doing is your fair share of the work and childcare it would be unfair to use this as a form of consequence to assert your boundary. Again, I think that's a form of control and manipulation. I think you should actually be commended for the support you have given in that regard.

If it's a serious issue for you and she doesn't feel the same way, then you might have to work out if it's a deal breaker for you.


----------



## Entropy3000

Reggiethelion said:


> I agree completely, I see it as about her respecting my boundaries and what I see as an inappropriate choice, she sees it as me not trusting her. That is why we are stuck.


Too bad she is not so focused on spending time with you as a couple. 

She is not trusting you either. She is not trusting you soe the inappropriateness of this. 

Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product. I trust my wife not to put herself into situations like this with other men. Sooo I would tell her that she is breaking trust by doing this and especially since your object. Moreover she is disrespecting you. 

Again this is not about arguing your points. Tell her this is not acceptable. I do not think you have done this. Until you are willing to be firm she will play this power game with you. Understand that if there is not an EA now that she runs this risk. Once that begins the brain chemicals take over so time is not on your side.

Is it possible she will do this race and not be in an EA with this guy by then? I suppose. But there will be further damage to relationship and the precedent has been set that basically you are not a full partner in these decisions. She decides based on what feels ok to her and not what you feel. This seems quite selfish to me.

I think you are a Nice Guy with all that this implies. 

See the Men's clubhouse stickies on this if you are infamiliar.

BTW when do you get your time to do this kind of stuff? Problem is if you do then your wife and you will have even less time together.


----------



## RClawson

Reggie I will say this much. If they are spending 5 hours a week together and not talking about your marriage they will be very shortly. 

They are bonding. Back in my corporate life I had female friends that were married. We could go to lunch on occasion and talk shop without ever crossing a line. I have maintained about a dozen relationships like that over the years. We chat about 2 times a year at the most.

There were other women (single) at work that I was attracted to and I knew there was chemistry. I was never alone with any of them EVER! If I was with them 5 hours a week running etc. I would say those relationships likely would have escalated. That is why the line is there.

your wife my friend is running in the fog.


----------



## Entropy3000

Reggiethelion said:


> I didn't go along with it from the beginning, it was supposed to be a running group but all the other people dropped out/couldn't keep up. I have no veto power, I tried very directly, and she has decided this is what she is doing. I am not at the point where I am going to leave over this, but I don't feel like I have veto power at this point, no.


If you are unwilling to force the issue then there rreally is not much you can do except start working on yourself. Get other interests beyond your wife.

Does she have veto power over anything you do?

Where do you think that point is in this where you might decide to take a firm stand. How far does this have to go? Where is your real boundary here?

I feel for you, I really do, I could not do this. What she is doing is unfaithful now. It was just inappropriate. This was supposed to be a group.

Again this has nothing to do with trust any longer. She has broken trust and is chosing to do this with this guy in the face of your objections.

I do agree you should look inside yourself and decide why you fear defending your marriage over this. This is not about becoming comfortable with her activity. That is just convincing yourself it is ok for her to disrespect you. FWIW this will not be attractive to her either.

Has this impacted your sex life yet?


----------



## Bambusa

Boundaries are not something you can force on someone else. They're a personal thing. Something you do to protect your own authentic self.

You can't tell her that she has to do something and that if she does, it is a sign she doesn't love or respect you. I believe that's manipulative. 

It maybe that she simply respects herself enough to continue doing something that is really important to her.

The fact that she doesn't give up something that is important to husband over something that is important to her is not a form of cheating, or disrespect.

If there is a lack of trust, that's different and it really sounds like what this might be all about.

If you don't trust her then that's the point that may need addressing. Her giving up training with this person isn't going to make your lack of trust in her go away.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> Boundaries are not something you can force on someone else. They're a personal thing. Something you do to protect your own authentic self.
> 
> You can't tell her that she has to do something and that if she does, it is a sign she doesn't love or respect you. I believe that's manipulative.
> 
> It maybe that she simply respects herself enough to continue doing something that is really important to her.
> 
> The fact that she doesn't give up something that is important to husband over something that is important to her is not a form of cheating, or disrespect.
> 
> If there is a lack of trust, that's different and it really sounds like what this might be all about.
> 
> If you don't trust her then that's the point that may need addressing. Her giving up training with this person isn't going to make your lack of trust in her go away.


By definition she is being unfaithful to him right now.
If they were single I might agree with you but they are not. They have children together and he is being supportive of her running.

He has every right to assert that he finds her time with this single guy unaccecptable. She is choosing this OM over him. That is disrespectful and unfaithful. It started as being just inappropriate.

You can fall on the side of people can do whatever they want, anytime they want with whomever they want despite thier spouses objections. That is not a partnership if this is the case. Suppose she decides to hang out at his house and shower there after they run? Suppose the time togther increases? Where IS the boundary here?

There are three types of boundaries in scope. 

1) His personal boundaries. i.e. what he finds acceptable or unacceptable in her behavior. These are his boundaries. He can choose to tell her what is unacceptable.

2) Her boundaries. If she values the OM more than her husband we understand her priorities but these are hers boundaries

3) The couples agreed upon boundaries. Best to have them up front and not decide on them on the fly. I suspect that she has adjusted her boundaries recently with her other lifes decisions like deciding she needs to get fit again. I think getting fit is great but it too can be a red flag. maybe this is her changing her boundaries and her priorities.

Ask youself it the genders were reversed would your opinion be the same. If the wife was wanting the husband to not be with an OW seven days a week binding like this. I can assure you mine would be exactly the same.

I do not think this is appropriate for an LTR but certainly not a marriage.

I would agrue that she is now forcing her boundaries on her husband. Why is that ok but not vice versa? I suggest it is her boundaries that have changed without his agreement.


----------



## NewM

How long do their running sessions last?Are weekend sessions longer then workday sessions?

Do they just meet,run for 60 mins,then say goodbye and go home each without any talking or is it more of an meet up talk 10 mins before they start then run 10-15 mins then rest 10-15 mins and repeating that cycle?

If its former then she can do it alone because why does she need him if there is not much socialization going on,and if its letter I don't need to explain to you why she should stop it.


----------



## Entropy3000

BTW if I did not listen to my wife when it came to that 25 y/o colleague I would have been divorced years ago.

My wife called me on it. I thought everything was fine until I went through withdrawal and realized I had been in an EA. My wife was right. She had every right to tell me it was unacceptable. I love her even more now for being willing to stand her ground to save our marriage.


----------



## Bambusa

Entropy3000 said:


> By definition she is being unfaithful to him right now.
> 
> He has every right to assert that he finds her time with this single guy unaccecptable. She is choosing this OM over him. That is disrespectful and unfaithful. It started as being just inappropriate.
> 
> You can fall on the side of people can do whatever they want, anytime they want with whomever they want despite thier spouses objections. That is not a partnership if this is the case. Suppose she decides to hang out at his house and shower there after they run? Suppose the time togther increases? Where IS the boundary here?
> 
> There are three types of boundaries in scope.
> 
> 1) His personal boundaries. i.e. what he finds acceptable or unacceptable in her behavior. These are his boundaries. He can choose to tell her what is unacceptable.
> 
> 2) Her boundaries. If she values the OM more than her husband we understand her priorities but these are hers boundaries
> 
> 3) The couples agreed upon boundaries. Best to have them up front and not decide on them on the fly. I suspect that she has adjusted her boundaries recently with her other lifes decisions like deciding she needs to get fit again. I think getting fit is great but it too can be a red flag. maybe this is her changing her boundaries and her priorities.
> 
> Ask youself it the genders were reversed would your opinion be the same. If the wife was wanting the husband to not be with an OW seven days a week binding like this. I can assure you mine would be exactly the same.
> 
> I do not think this is appropriate for an LTR but certainly not a marriage.
> 
> I would agrue that she is now forcing her boundaries on her husband. Why is that ok but not vice versa? I suggest it is her boundaries that have changed without his agreement.


By definition, being unfaithful is having sexual relations with a person other than ones partner in contravention of a previous promise or understanding.

If she was involved in a sexual relationship with this person I could see the reason for the unfaithful comment. 

She is training with someone for a marathon who happens to be of the opposite sex. 

I don't see how this is unfaithful or inappropriate.

I agree that he has every right to voice his thoughts and feelings about something. He's done that. 

Telling her what she can and can't do and then expecting her to jump on board simply because they are married is unrealistic.

I don't fall on the side of people doing anything and everything they want. I just don't agree with your stance on this is cheating or that she is choosing this over him. She is sticking with something that is important to her, so she may have chosen to meet her own needs over his but not necessarily chosen this over him as a person.

You can bring in all the supposes you want but it's not really valid to the points raised. She hasn't chosen to have a shower at his place. You can't judge her on something she hasn't done or something she MAY do in the future. 

I agree with boundary 1. I find boundary 2 lacks objectivity and that 1 and 2 should be the same.

I also agree with the first sentence in boundary 3 but find the rest again is a bit unfair. 

We don't know this woman, so it's a bit unfair to generalise about her, especially when those comments have not been reflected by the original poster.

I don't see things as a gender issue. As I said before. My husband and I BOTH have friends of the opposite sex and neither of us has a problem with that. Neither of us see it as a form of cheating and neither of us distrust each other.

The husband wants her to stop and she doesn't want to. 

There is no evidence to suggest that she is behaving inappropriately with him. It is a trust issue.

She has asserted her boundary. The husband could do the same, but I fear that in the end if both people can't find a mutually agreeable solution that doesn't leave one feeling robbed in some way it may come down to a point where one decides if this is a deal breaker for them.


----------



## NewM

Funny thing that I noticed also is you were against her starting running with him alone and she did it anyway,now after some time that they are running her excuse is that it would look bad stopping now that she is already running with him.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> By definition, being unfaithful is having sexual relations with a person other than ones partner in contravention of a previous promise or understanding.
> 
> Negative, Being unfaithful is doing anything that is not faithful to your spouse. That includes lying or choosing to be with another person. Unfaithful does not equal sexual intercourse. Unfaithfulness is also when you disrespect your spouse.
> 
> If she was involved in a sexual relationship with this person I could see the reason for the unfaithful comment.
> 
> She is training with someone for a marathon who happens to be of the opposite sex.
> 
> Right and she is spending time with him seven days a week. Her husband just happens to not be ok with this. That matters. She is bonding with this man. Realize that not only is she risking her marriage, but if she is in an EA she will need to quit her job to go NC and then go through withdrawal. This is not stuff to play games with. My EA was with a colleague that just happened to be a woman. Her colleague at work just happens to be a man. She is chosing her training partner to be a single man. Moreover it is the same man from work. Too much bonding going on here for comfort.
> 
> I don't see how this is unfaithful or inappropriate.
> 
> That is ok. It is not a requirement. Her husband says this is an impasse. That is all that matters. If he was ok with this then great.
> 
> I agree that he has every right to voice his thoughts and feelings about something. He's done that.
> 
> It goes beyond voicing thoughts in a marriage. Again this is not a friendship. It is a marriage where there are children involved. He is being ignored and disrespected. He has a problem with this opposite sex relationship.
> 
> Telling her what she can and can't do and then expecting her to jump on board simply because they are married is unrealistic.
> 
> Marriage for at least many of us is a partnership. There are things that a spouse has a right to expect us not to do. These pertain to opposite sex relationships. These are not the type of things you wean someone off. They are emotional bonds.
> 
> "*Just because you are married*". Understand that for many of us marriage is our absolute #1 priority. There is no just becasue about it. I get that it may not be for you or many others. It may not be for his wife.
> 
> I don't fall on the side of people doing anything and everything they want. I just don't agree with your stance on this is cheating or that she is choosing this over him. She is sticking with something that is important to her, so she may have chosen to meet her own needs over his but not necessarily chosen this over him as a person.
> 
> I never said this was cheating ... yet. I said it is unfaithful by definition. This is not a black and white world. There is a continuum of gray here.
> 
> Inappropriate Behavior -> Unfaithfulness -> Cheating.
> 
> It was IMO inappropriate for her to put herself in this situation. The situation itself is now inappropriate. It was a group but now just the two of them. We can see the slippery slope her from an innocent situation to a tenuous one. She could have decided on her own this was not a good idea.
> 
> BUT, once he objected to this and she ignored his requests it became unfaithful. You can agree or not agree with his position but she is chosing to ignore his wishes as it pertains to this opposite sex relationship. This is now causing damage to the marriage.
> 
> It is not a swicth Cheating / Not Cheating. EAs start in the inappropirate stage and are best dealt with there by boundaries. Once you get into unfaithful you have big issues. Now if she were to start hiding emails and texts or meeting this guy in secret this would also be unfaithful. Some would call it cheating as well. Some wait for cheating to be a physical act like kissing. I am ok with that definition but I think cheating is just a more extreme level of unfaithfulness.
> 
> You can bring in all the supposes you want but it's not really valid to the points raised. She hasn't chosen to have a shower at his place. You can't judge her on something she hasn't done or something she MAY do in the future.
> 
> My point was "where are the boundaries?". When can he object in your opinion? You are supporting that she can do what she feels is ok. I am suggesting that spouses cannot just do what feels ok because of the brain chemicals. We have impaired thinking when this happens. We need to respect our spouses. Err on the side of caution here.
> 
> I agree with boundary 1. I find boundary 2 lacks objectivity and that 1 and 2 should be the same.
> 
> People have their own personal boundaries for themselves. Being close to each others means they have compatible boundaries.
> 
> It is best to discuss, define and implement agreed upon boundaries up front. If they had perhaps he would not have had to object. I can tell you that since my wife and I have doen His Needs Her Needs we flat do not have to discuss much of this type of stuff. We know where the boundaires are.
> 
> I chose to deduce from his posts that this is not something she normally does. He can correct me on this. She is changing the rules now in her 30s. They may of may not have agreed upon boundaries. That said if she has changed her behaviors he has every right to expect changes to be agreed upon. Some folks like POJA. Policy Of Joint Agreement for very important things in a marriage.
> 
> I also agree with the first sentence in boundary 3 but find the rest again is a bit unfair.
> 
> We don't know this woman, so it's a bit unfair to generalise about her, especially when those comments have not been reflected by the original poster.
> 
> My comments are based on what the OP has written. That she chooses to ignore his feelings. I suspect he has not been firm enough frankly. There may be a lot going on with her and him that we have not been given any clues about.
> 
> I don't see things as a gender issue. As I said before. My husband and I BOTH have friends of the opposite sex and neither of us has a problem with that. Neither of us see it as a form of cheating and neither of us distrust each other.
> 
> Cool. That is your choice. I once thought this way as well. I have opposite sex friends but not close ones. There is no hanging out with other women for me. The OP can weigh in on how he feels about hanging out with opposite sex friends. He may surprise us. That said this situation is tough because of the sheer hours they spend together at work and running. This guy is also single. I think a married guy would still be a problem but single is a big problem. I suggest she be grateful her husband supports her in her running. She could show that by ditching this guy.
> 
> The husband wants her to stop and she doesn't want to.
> 
> Correct. So she is being unfaithful to her husband by wanting to continue this relationship to this other man. I did not want ot give up my close female friend either. I was wrong. I was in an EA.
> But I listened to my wife and chose to be faithful to her even though I though there was nothing wrong. That is what we spouses are supposed to do. It is called being faithful.
> 
> There is no evidence to suggest that she is behaving inappropriately with him. It is a trust issue.
> 
> He should be able to trust her to avoid this inappropriate situation. She is spending way too many hours with this guy. She is breaking trust. Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product.
> 
> We have all the evidence needed. He has asked her to stop this relationship and she refuses. That is serious stuff. One has to understand EAs to even deal with this. You have to stop them early.
> Her relationship with this guy now threatens the marriage.
> 
> She has asserted her boundary. The husband could do the same, but I fear that in the end if both people can't find a mutually agreeable solution that doesn't leave one feeling robbed in some way it may come down to a point where one decides if this is a deal breaker for them.
> 
> Fundamental boundaries cannot be comprmised and maintain integrity. Boundaries are not about what people want or desire. They are fundamental to their emotional needs. This is not I really want this thing. This is about ones inner integrity.
> 
> You really think that it is appropriate for a husband or wife to be chosing an opposite sex friend over their spouses wishes?


----------



## Bambusa

I don't think you can judge another persons motives by your own past motives. 

We have different views on it and I think that's not a bad thing for a few opposing views to be put out there to balance things out.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> I don't think you can judge another persons motives by your own past motives.
> 
> We have different views on it and I think that's not a bad thing for a few opposing views to be put out there to balance things out.


Right. My motives were quite naive and innocent. Perhaps hers are not. I agree. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt.

We all make judgements based on knowledge and experience. I can judge based on my experienece of the brain chemicals though. They are the same chemicals as with cocain.

We are talking emotional binds here. My comments are not just based on my personal experience alone.

But I am judging her on what the OP wrote. He asked his wife to stop doing this and she said she would not.

I do not know her motives for this at all. I am actually hoping she is just naive. If it is not her naivete then it means she intends to cheat and there is nothing he can do to stop that. But I have no evidence for this and my comments are based on her refusing to honor her husbands requests.

One requirement for an EA is that the WS feel they are immune to EAs.

Anyway, have a good night. I need to get to sleep and pick my wonderful wife up at the airport.


----------



## daisygirl 41

It's not about trust
It's about boundaries and putting yourself in vulnerable situations.
I wouldn't be comfortable with this situation at all and youre obviously not so you need to discuss this with her and see where her loyalty lies.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## OhGeesh

Bambusa said:


> By definition, being unfaithful is having sexual relations with a person other than ones partner in contravention of a previous promise or understanding.
> 
> *I agree 100% not saying EA's aren't real, but every little thing isn't a affair!!*
> 
> If she was involved in a sexual relationship with this person I could see the reason for the unfaithful comment.
> 
> She is training with someone for a marathon who happens to be of the opposite sex.
> 
> My wife did the same when she ran a marathon it was 3 dudes and two chicks. She would run and come home
> 
> I don't see how this is unfaithful or inappropriate.
> 
> Agreed
> 
> I agree that he has every right to voice his thoughts and feelings about something. He's done that.
> 
> Telling her what she can and can't do and then expecting her to jump on board simply because they are married is unrealistic.
> 
> Agreed
> 
> I don't fall on the side of people doing anything and everything they want. I just don't agree with your stance on this is cheating or that she is choosing this over him. She is sticking with something that is important to her, so she may have chosen to meet her own needs over his but not necessarily chosen this over him as a person.
> 
> You can bring in all the supposes you want but it's not really valid to the points raised. She hasn't chosen to have a shower at his place. You can't judge her on something she hasn't done or something she MAY do in the future.
> 
> I agree with boundary 1. I find boundary 2 lacks objectivity and that 1 and 2 should be the same.
> 
> I also agree with the first sentence in boundary 3 but find the rest again is a bit unfair.
> 
> Agreed!!
> 
> We don't know this woman, so it's a bit unfair to generalise about her, especially when those comments have not been reflected by the original poster.
> 
> I don't see things as a gender issue. As I said before. My husband and I BOTH have friends of the opposite sex and neither of us has a problem with that. Neither of us see it as a form of cheating and neither of us distrust each other.
> 
> The husband wants her to stop and she doesn't want to.
> 
> There is no evidence to suggest that she is behaving inappropriately with him. It is a trust issue.
> 
> She has asserted her boundary. The husband could do the same, but I fear that in the end if both people can't find a mutually agreeable solution that doesn't leave one feeling robbed in some way it may come down to a point where one decides if this is a deal breaker for them.


Pretty much agree with everything!!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wow.
This is not an easy one.
Yes there has been some boundaries crossed,but we must remember that we are only hearing one side of this story.

I was once in the same situation many years ago like Reggie,but the difference was my wife only spent 1hr every day with her running partner. I didn't have a problem with it for many reasons. They were friends before we were married , and I also knew the guy. He was a total wussy, beta type fellow[ Opposite to what she liked in men ],and I understood the dynamics between them even before we were married. Also he was trying to drop weight ,so she encouraged him. Nothing ever happened between them,. As a matter of fact both of them started running [ at 5.00AM on mornings] ,and soon the group grew to about ten of them. He brought in the others. She eventually left the group because she wanted to run with me instead. So I obliged.

But flip the script.
There used to be this other guy who wanted to get into her pants badly,before we were married. He was a police officer. We both got into an argument at one time, when all of us were hanging out, and he pulled a gun on me. I looked him in the eye and told him f..k you. [ I think that earned me some points with her ].Now, if after we were married,she wanted to go run with HIM,then that would have been a big problem for me.
So I could understand Reggie feeling insecure if he thinks this guy is encroaching,because she is spending a lot of time with him. Both she and Reggie have some work to do. She needs to understand exactly what is bothering Reggie and deal with restoring his confidence levels.She may have to compromise and give in a little.[No email contact from this guy etc., because they ALREADY work together.]
Reggie needs to understand exactly why this is important to her, and set new rules or boundaries. Both of them,especially the wife cannot allow hubris and selfishness to take control.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Reggiethelion

Entropy3000 said:


> Does she have veto power over anything you do?
> 
> *Honestly no. Not officially. There are things that I know would be off limits, but they are obvious.
> *
> 
> Where do you think that point is in this where you might decide to take a firm stand. How far does this have to go? Where is your real boundary here?
> 
> *Any evidence of an EA and I would lose it. I already lost it last week when she went in to work for a few hours on saturday and later casually mentioned that he was there. She then told me that several other people were there too. It is normal in her line of work that they would all be there. My real boundary is an emotional affair, and at this point I don't think she is there yet, but she is risking one. Even then I can't say what I'd do other than telling her to stop. Financially we can't afford not to live in the same house.*
> 
> I feel for you, I really do, I could not do this. What she is doing is unfaithful now. It was just inappropriate. This was supposed to be a group.
> 
> Again this has nothing to do with trust any longer. She has broken trust and is chosing to do this with this guy in the face of your objections.
> 
> I do agree you should look inside yourself and decide why you fear defending your marriage over this. This is not about becoming comfortable with her activity. That is just convincing yourself it is ok for her to disrespect you. FWIW this will not be attractive to her either.
> 
> Has this impacted your sex life yet?
> 
> *Yes. Equally on both sides I'd say. I am not the kind of person who will initiate anything when I am angry about something.*





> i wonder how many times her previous interest said no to her relationship with you.


Many. Although at that point it was a long distance relationship, boyfriend-girlfriend, with no kids. I like to hope she takes a 10 year marriage with children more seriously but you are correct that the history affects my outlook.


----------



## livelaughlovenow

Reggiethelion said:


> Hello, I would like other's thoughts. I have been married for a decade, kids, both of us in early-mid thirties. Recently, my wife began running again to get in shape, which I thought was great. Problem for me is she has chosen a single male colleague-with whom she already spends 8 hours a day-as her running partner. He is in his mid twenties. They run together 5 times a week-3 days after work and on the weekends. I don't suspect infidelity at this point, rather I think he is genuinely just a convenient running partner and my wife wants to get in shape. But it still bothers me quite a bit. So I told my wife that I thought it was inappropriate for her to be running alone 5 times a week with a single male. She disagrees. We have had two significant arguments, one very serious with her storming out in tears at 11pm and coming back an hour later over the issue. I am more upset that she won't just stop because I want her to than because of the actual issue at this point, because I feel if the tables were turned I would do so for her. She says she has committed to training with this person for a race and if she backed out now it would look terrible at work. I have said some hurtful things out of anger over the issue, which I later told her I didn't really mean. Our relationship is seriously affected, we are avoiding open hostility but we have been basically communicating on a superficial level for several weeks. I really don't know what to do. She won't stop, and I won't become ok with what she is doing. Any ideas?


This is a problem... since she won't stop and find another running partner, she values this man's opinion and friendship and that would be a red flag for me. Can you not be her running partner? What a better way for the two of you to reconnect then to get healthy together and to spend that quality time together? Is that possible? I definitely agree with you, I am female. I don't think it is ever a good idea for people of the opposite sex to hang out after work unless it is absolutely required of the work... but I am of the mindset you should have a good enough solid friendship with your spouse at home to not seek friends of the opposite sex once married anyway, it's just looking for trouble, breeds jelousy, insecurity, etc.


----------



## heartbrok3n

While i have no reasons to believe the wife has cheated or has any intention to cheat on the OP, i do think she is disrespecting him by disregarding his feelings. It is not a trust or low self esteem issue. A marriage is a partnership where each other's feelings should be respected and put first, above anything else.

Suppose your spouse has to sleep overnight, for whatever reason, in the same room with someone from the opposite sex, even if you know for sure, with utmost certainty that nothing would happen between them, would you not feel even a tiny bit uncomfortable about it?

We learn to trust a person when our physical or emotional well being has never been threatened or hurt by that person, and IMO, that can only be achieved when that person puts our feelings first before he/she makes any decision. 

There was a guy who used to be really into my wife, then gf. He would offer to help out at every opportunity, they went on short trips twice, with another female friend of hers tagging along. She was fully aware that i didn't like the guy, but she took the trips anyway and i wasn't even informed about his presence on either trip until she came back. And to top it off, she expected me to suck it up. While i will never know if anything happened on those road trips and i am hoping that nothing did, but had i taken that as a warning sign of how she would be in the future and left then, i wouldn't be where i am now, on the brink of divorce, 2 kids later.

Anyway, not sure if i am helping the situation or adding fuel to the fire. I wish you well, Reggie. Hope everything will be fine soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Drover

Is this one of those sponsored race things where you have to commit to raising money and training? If so, asking her to back out of a commitment is really not the answer. You really want to be a husband telling his wife her commitments are not important? 

The easy answer here is to start running with them, even if you can't keep up go run a shorter loop or something and then eventually get to their level.

Also, did she not talk to you before she committed to this? Did you express your feelings then? Did you tell her that even though she isn't thinking of him sexually, HE IS? 

I see the exercising/running together as always being a red flag because it's a physical activity. Chemicals and hormones are being released while they're together. And the fact that you can't keep up doesn't help...


----------



## anchorwatch

I agree with Entropy. Even if it was all innocent and just circumstances that led to them to being the ones left in the group. She see's it as her individual choice, not a relationship choice. She has made an independent decision with out care to what you think, married couples don't do that. Her not respecting your concerns or making any compromise for you is disrespecting at the least and choosing him over you at the worst.

You better spend a lot of quality time with her , to counter act his presence.


----------



## Latigo

"if she backed out now it would look terrible at work"
If it were my wife, my response would be "SO WHAT?!?!?" A similar situation came up with my wife and I when she first got on FB. A "family friend" (who I don't trust) wanted to play FB games with her one on one. I told her "NO". I know she was a little embarressed, but I didn't care. She isn't missing out on anything by not gaming with this guy. In fact we're both better off that she isn't. Like someone said, her not wanting to look bad (whatever that means) is more important than your marriage it seams.


----------



## Entropy3000

> Where do you think that point is in this where you might decide to take a firm stand. How far does this have to go? Where is your real boundary here?
> 
> *Any evidence of an EA and I would lose it. I already lost it last week when she went in to work for a few hours on saturday and later casually mentioned that he was there. She then told me that several other people were there too. It is normal in her line of work that they would all be there. My real boundary is an emotional affair, and at this point I don't think she is there yet, but she is risking one. Even then I can't say what I'd do other than telling her to stop. Financially we can't afford not to live in the same house.*


The intent of intervening before the EA is evident is to save the marriage. Putting the genie back in the bottle after the damage is done by an EA is not garanteed and is at the least a tough thing to do. Waiting for evidence means an EA will have been going on for some time before you determine it is an EA. An EA can turn to a PA at any time. This all assumes innocent behavior. By this I mean that your wife has no intent to cheat on the marriage. EAs are often about cake eating. At some point there are choices being made that are not so innocent but they get rationalized.

But that said, I was asking you where your true boundary was and I am hearing that you either do not really know or don't want to think about it, which is understandable. I say this because even with an EA you would just tell her to stop. Like you are doing now. And you can't afford not to live in the same house. How long would you live in the same house if there was an EA / PA? if there is have you already decided to ride it out and forgive her? Yes this has not happened, it is about deciding where your personal boundaries are. Knowing where they are can tell you what and when to do. They can keep you from sprialling downward. Sliding friction is less. Meaning if you are not sure where your boundaries are they may keep sliding in hopes that what is happening is not really happening.

Realize that before an EA you should be able to speak rationally with your wife and say to her this is unacceptable. After she is in an EA she will refuse to give him up. She would need some extreme pressure to do so. She will have fallen in love with him by then. I am not sayig she is in an EA now but she refuses you now. It is not a foregone conclusion that this will go to an EA. The current situation as it is, is a real concern however if it bothers you. Your marriage is under siege. There is a problem that is not being resolved. You are being asked to suck it up. 

You also indicate that she does not have veto power over similar situations with you. So this is the dynamic of your marriage. These are the boundaries you have established. Boundaries ideally are equitable. Perhaps this is part of the reason she is not honoring your feelings. Maybe sometime in the past you did not honor hers. I don't know. These are a couples choices. 

You know to be able to allow your spouse this type of veto power even when you think you are in the clear is a level of love and intimacy that not all couples can achieve but I assure you it is a higher plane of the relationship. We talk about trust. It is trusting your partner to see risks that you cannot. It is that love and respect that allows for this trust. I believe anyway that we have to help our partners when they do not see the risks. Many people do not believe this. They just say if they are going to cheat they will cheat.

But ultimately we do not control people. The boundaries I speak of are all about you. Telling her to stop is not going to control her. As I suggested the way one does this is to say that what she is doing is unaccepteble in your marriage. Determine now where your boundary is. 

While I am a believer in transparency I am not one for going into full blown detective mode to monitor something like this. That may just be me. You will get advice to just accept what she is doing and monitor for an EA / PA. I am not sure how you do any of that in this situation. To me the behavior speaks volumes. The issue in your marriage is that you have this symptom of a bigger problem.

But if you are not going to intervene I guess you should start working on yourself and be prepared for this possibly going into affair mode. Where are _your_ outside interests? You need to soul search and ask yourself why your wife discounts your concerns. If we do not respect ourselves no one else will. So work on gaining this respect for yourself. Do not be content with just supporting your wife in her pursuits but also find your personal interests. Have her stay home and watch the kids while you do your thing. Get some balance in your relationship. For some reason she thinks you will put up with this or she no longer cares or both.


----------



## Entropy3000

BTW consider using a bike to ride along with her. You could be her timer and water bearer. Hey wow, that would be a bonding experience for you guys AND you would be showing her great support. In fact the way you do this is to suggest that you guys do not spend enough time together now. You want her to follow through with this so this is a compromise. Note that this compromise does not compromise your boundaries.

This would be sans the co-worker.


----------



## Maricha75

Entropy3000 said:


> BTW consider using a bike to ride along with her. You could be her timer and water bearer. Hey wow, that would be a bonding experience for you guys AND you would be showing her great support. In fact the way you do this is to suggest that you guys do not spend enough time together now. You want her to follow through with this so this is a compromise. Note that this compromise does not compromise your boundaries.
> 
> This would be sans the co-worker.


Also, if your kids are young enough, have one of those little cars or whatever to pull behind the bike. Gives you a bit of a workout as well. 

If they are older, they could possibly keep up on bikes of their own. I know MANY kids who bike down the road with their parents. They LOVE it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Maricha75 said:


> Also, if your kids are young enough, have one of those little cars or whatever to pull behind the bike. Gives you a bit of a workout as well.
> 
> If they are older, they could possibly keep up on bikes of their own. I know MANY kids who bike down the road with their parents. They LOVE it.


WONDERMOUS!!! Then it is a family outing!!!


----------



## Entropy3000

One thing I would love is to see other opinions on myself is whether he should up the couple time or not. I know you cannot nice people out of an affair BUT, she is now even more vulnerable to this. Does he cool things down or heat them up? I suspect this could be a critical decision for him. He does not want to appear weak but right now she is not bonding with her husband. This would encourage her to possibly confide in the OM.

I am thinking that he not accept the disrespect but at the same time ensure they have plenty of alone couple time. This couple time will allow him to know where her head is at is my thinking. Also the root causes for this situation need to be addressed. We don't know but she may be making some lifes decisions at this time in her life and marriage. 

I do not think a soft or hard 180 is what should be done here as he has not asserted himself by saying what she is doing is unacceptable.

I was also thinking just how often we see couples with children get into a mode where one watches the kids while the other is seeking thier happiness. I do think there has to be some of this. But with children what seems to be sacrificed is the couples time. 

Also how often we see "We have been married ten years .... followed by something like this"


----------



## Paradise

Wow....I'm triggering big time reading this thread. This is exactly the route my marriage went down so I am biased here on any response I generate as my ex is now married to the other dude a year after our divorce. 

This is a no-win situation. What if he joins them? How awkward would that be at this point? Even if he was on his bike, etc, with the kids around. It's going to look like he is checking up on her. This will push her further away. 

On the flip side he has stated his boundaries and she ignored it. 

This is just coming from experience on what I wish I would have done. First of all, I like the bike idea. Take the kids and go enjoy a fun biking experience with them. Soon they will be old enough to learn to ride by themselves and you can do it with them. Second, get yourself in kick ass shape and build your confidence. Then, take the kids to ice cream, play at the park, find a ton of fun stuff to do with them. Then when you get home every night talk about all of the fun things you and your kids are doing. 

The big thing here that I have a problem with is that you both have your own careers and you both have your kids but what are you building as husband and wife together. My marriage blew up as my ex started one new adventure after another revolving around her new career and her new friends and eventually her new boyfriend. Each time something new entered the picture something old that we use to enjoy went by the wayside. 

And someone mentioned about how many times we hear about "married ten years and then......" . Well, this is the way it happens. I've learned the hard way that if you are not building your relationship then it is going in reverse. There is seldom a static medium in relationships. 

Once again, I'm biased here because I went through this and came out on the bad side of it. Take my opinions for what they are worth.


----------



## Phenix70

Reggiethelion said:


> *No cheating by either of us in the past on each other, but 13 years ago, my wife left her then boyfriend of 3 years for me, and we started off as friends doing athletic pursuits....*


If you they will do it with you, they can do it to you.


----------



## Drover

Paradise said:


> This is a no-win situation. What if he joins them? How awkward would that be at this point? Even if he was on his bike, etc, with the kids around. It's going to look like he is checking up on her. This will push her further away.


The only way I see it as being awkward is if she's been going to her running partner and crying on his shoulder about how controlling her husband is being. In my opinion, if she's been doing this then it's already an emotional affair.


----------



## Maricha75

Drover said:


> The only way I see it as being awkward is if she's been going to her running partner and crying on his shoulder about how controlling her husband is being. In my opinion, if she's been doing this then it's already an emotional affair.


Not to mention the fact that she is is wife. He wants more quality time with his wife. If this is the best way to do it... how can that be a bad thing? I see it as win-win. He gets healthier, they spend time together, the other guy is pushed out of the picture with on "issue" so to speak. How is this bad, again?


----------



## Paradise

Once again, I'm generalizing based on my own experiences. We don't know the entire story. Maybe his wife has begged him to participate in this with her. Maybe she has come up with all of these awesome ideas as well and he turned her down. If that's the case then it's on him. We don't know if he already has lots of activities that he participates in on his own that doesn't include his wife. 

My big thing is this....Is all of this building up or breaking down the marriage? And if it is breaking it down how can this guy make it a building up activity for the entire family. 

Communication between husband and wife is key here.


----------



## piggyoink

Why Jealousy Is Poisonous to Any Relationship


----------



## Bambusa

There is nothing wrong with a plutonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex, if that relationship is conducted respectfully by both people ie: the two friends.

I honestly don't see an issue with it and I find it really disturbing how many comments there are saying that she IS cheating, that she IS having an EA. 

We don't know that and this woman could be crucified for nothing. I don't believe it helps the OP to state that.

Suggest it as a possibility sure, but to state it as fact when we don't know if it is, is a real stretch.

To believe that noone should be allowed a plutonic relationship with the opposite sex because so many others have been tempted is a bit like blaming all men for being violent brutal pigs and deadbeat dads because a few have been. It's a generalisation and far from the truth.


----------



## lamaga

I agree, Bambusa, but because I am a pedantic S*B, please allow me to point out that it's "platonic". Not plutonic 

And btw, this is a very unpopular view around here -- you may not get blasted, since it's the weekend, but you may.


----------



## Paradise

No, Bambusa's opinion here is probably a little off on the direction this site is tilted. I'm in-between on these types of issues. I've always looked inwardly when faced with a situation such as this that makes me feel uncomfortable first so that I do understand my boundaries. My situation was a bit different but the fact is right now there is tension in the relationship for this guy and as a married couple they are going to have to work together to figure out the best action for them. 

Everyone and every couple are different.


----------



## warlock07

Did you meet this guy? meeting him face to face will give you some answers. 

If she won't quit, use this situation to come to an understanding regarding each other boundaries. Next time she puts herself in such a scenario, you will know how much she values the marriage.

If a few more red flags show up, you might have to start snooping.

Also, marriage counseling now!! Don't delay it.


----------



## Bambusa

I'm not saying she's innocent, but I'm not advocating that she's guilty either because the OP has not given any evidence to suggest she is.

I just think it's treading dangerous ground to state she is cheating as fact and potentially turn something that is a matter of trust into something else entirely.

I would feel uncomfortable if there was a history of it too.

My position is that not all opposite sex friendships lead to cheating and not all who are involved in a friendship with the opposite sex are doing it for that reason.

There are some times very genuine and very innocent reasons for it.

I'm trying to be objective.


----------



## Bambusa

I just think there is an awful lot of projection.


----------



## Entropy3000

Paradise said:


> Wow....I'm triggering big time reading this thread. This is exactly the route my marriage went down so I am biased here on any response I generate as my ex is now married to the other dude a year after our divorce.
> 
> This is a no-win situation. What if he joins them? How awkward would that be at this point? Even if he was on his bike, etc, with the kids around. It's going to look like he is checking up on her. This will push her further away.
> 
> On the flip side he has stated his boundaries and she ignored it.
> 
> This is just coming from experience on what I wish I would have done. First of all, I like the bike idea. Take the kids and go enjoy a fun biking experience with them. Soon they will be old enough to learn to ride by themselves and you can do it with them. Second, get yourself in kick ass shape and build your confidence. Then, take the kids to ice cream, play at the park, find a ton of fun stuff to do with them. Then when you get home every night talk about all of the fun things you and your kids are doing.
> 
> The big thing here that I have a problem with is that you both have your own careers and you both have your kids but what are you building as husband and wife together. My marriage blew up as my ex started one new adventure after another revolving around her new career and her new friends and eventually her new boyfriend. Each time something new entered the picture something old that we use to enjoy went by the wayside.
> 
> And someone mentioned about how many times we hear about "married ten years and then......" . Well, this is the way it happens. *I've learned the hard way that if you are not building your relationship then it is going in reverse. * There is seldom a static medium in relationships.
> 
> Once again, I'm biased here because I went through this and came out on the bad side of it. Take my opinions for what they are worth.


Ah. Nicely put. Yes. This is wise. :iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

piggyoink said:


> Why Jealousy Is Poisonous to Any Relationship


The article is about improper jealousy. Jealousy is a gut feeling. It is there for a reason. It is part of our survival mechanism. It is an indicator that there may be a predator after our mate. 

Jealousy out of context is not good or bad. It is a human emotion.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> *There is nothing wrong with a plutonic relationship with someone of the opposite sex, if that relationship is conducted respectfully by both people ie: the two friends.*
> 
> I honestly don't see an issue with it and I find it really disturbing how many comments there are saying that she IS cheating, that she IS having an EA.
> 
> We don't know that and this woman could be crucified for nothing. I don't believe it helps the OP to state that.
> 
> Suggest it as a possibility sure, but to state it as fact when we don't know if it is, is a real stretch.
> 
> To believe that noone should be allowed a plutonic relationship with the opposite sex because so many others have been tempted is a bit like blaming all men for being violent brutal pigs and deadbeat dads because a few have been. It's a generalisation and far from the truth.


It is no longer proper once is cause problems for the marriage. If you believe that marriages come and go but friends are forever you may have this notion.

However, if you believe that friendships come and go and marriages are forever then you may feel differently.

Having close relationships with opposite sex friends is a level of openess for a marriage. All marriages have some level of openess. Some are actually labeld as open marriages. Some couples agree that hanging out / dating other people is ok. But to be sure this is not a b;ack and white world.

It really comes down to what is the right level of monogamy versus openess one desires in a marriage.

Per the OP this is not something he has agreed to.
That is the issue here. This is a HUGE problem.

If the OP came onto the site and said hey we have a great relationship and my wife does this or that and I am all for it then goog for him.

Instead he said he was at an impasse. This then makes this a problem.

Saying that the sex of the friend never matters is beyond naive and I would say is disengenuous over all. How much this is cake eating, is hard to tell.

You still keep missing the main point. The issue is her lack of respect and concern for her husband.  She is not being faithful to him.  Whether this is, is not or will be an affair certainly is important but it is not the point in question here. I may be assuming wrongly that respect is an emotional need no matter ones sex, but in general respect is right at the top of emotional needs for men. Sexual fullfilment and Respect are very near the top if not the top two.

Hopefully this is not some misguided gender rights issue for anyone. My position for sure would be the same if the genders were reversed.

That said this is not just about opposite sex friendships. It is a specific case where she is spending more time with this guy than her husband. He is single. She sees him at work five days a week and three days a week AFYER that she runs with him. Then she sees him on Saturday and Sunday to run. This would be ok if her husband was not bothered by it. He is. She will not change it for him though. He just has to suck it up and watch the kids.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> I'm not saying she's innocent, but I'm not advocating that she's guilty either because the OP has not given any evidence to suggest she is.
> 
> I just think it's treading dangerous ground to state she is cheating as fact and potentially turn something that is a matter of trust into something else entirely.
> 
> I would feel uncomfortable if there was a history of it too.
> 
> My position is that *not all opposite sex friendships lead to cheating* and not all who are involved in a friendship with the opposite sex are doing it for that reason.
> 
> There are some times very genuine and very innocent reasons for it.
> 
> I'm trying to be objective.


Again this is not about her cheating. Why are folks always hung up on cheating as a boundary? So anything goes as long as no one has sex? LOL. Wow. 

Of course not all opposite sex friendships lead to cheating. So what? What is a good ratio? Why play russian roulette with this? If you value a relationship why take risks? I do agree that there are risks in everything we do in life. So we have to assess the risks versus the rewards all of the time. Their are going to be opposite sex relationships. How close is a matter of conjecture before the risks become too high. Couples vary with these levels.

So the question is what is the risk to this marriage of this relationship? Consider that the risk could have been reduced if she respected his concerns. However wife and husband are at an impasse over this. This is an indicator that for what ever reason she does not respect him enough to alter this. For some reason the husband has a gut feeling about this.

So as has been stated they need to work on the root cause of their issues.
ASAP.


----------



## Catherine602

I understand all the discussion about jealousy, the right to chose friends, trust etc. I cannot even consider these discussions although they are reasonable and well thought out. The only thing I can think of is that this man is made unhappy by his wife choice of a running partner. He is distressed over something that is easily fixed. She can find another partner or go it alone. 

If she cared about her husband enough, she would come up with an excuse, ie she wants to spend more time with her husband and will run with him. Easy enough. I think when a reasonable request is made by a spouse is easy to do and is something that is important to them, out of love you make the accommodation. You may not agree but do it for them. 

My husband and I make request of each other. When I worked full time, a couple of women and I had drinks every Fri after work. I came home around 8PM at times. My husband did not like it and ask me to make it infrequent. He rarely goes out for drinks in the evening with workmates even his male friends . I stopped altogether. 

The time out was not more important than his feelings. Also, I was not affronted by the fact that he may have thought that I would get attention from men. I did but I did not and would never engage in conversation. But I got his point. 

I don't understand why people think it is alright to pursue friendships with the opposite sex when it makes their spouse uncomfortable. How can they enjoy something so trivial when it hurts the person whose feelings they should protect.

I agree with Entropy it is a matter of respect. She is also contemptuous. A deadly attitude for a relationship. If you have no children don't until you settle the repect and contempt issues. Those dont belong in a loving relationship. There is more here than running. It is an attitude and is probably a common theme in the relationship? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## piggyoink

Bambusa said:


> My position is that not all opposite sex friendships lead to cheating and not all who are involved in a friendship with the opposite sex are doing it for that reason.


Yeah people should have the ability to choose their friends without so many funny restrictions being put into place.


----------



## RClawson

Ok let me see if I can spell it out a bit more clearly by using a personal illustration. 

My wife has always had female friends that detract from our relationship and the time we spend together. Years ago when we moved to a new town she became very close with another woman that lived in our court. They became walking partners. It was great, She got in shape, was feeling much better about herself and it showed. I was commuting to the corporate job from hell and it was early in my career and I had the weekends with the family. I knew she was spending about 1-2 hours a week walking and conversing with her friend so I got a bit annoyed when she was doing it on Saturday mornings as well. I asked her if she would stop so we could have time together. Without batting an eye she said no. I was so dumbstruck I did not know what to say. I had no idea what an EA was but she was in one.
Today she is in a high powered position and very successful. She walks regularly, weather permitting, with a colleague she get's along with. She refuses to take walks with me, which is quite hurtful. A couple of weeks ago she went out to dinner with her friend and another colleague. At eleven she got home and stated that the other colleague went home at 6 but they talked in the car for 4 hours. She stated "that it was good to have some time to catch up". I guess they do not talk when they walk 3-4 nights a week.

I am sorry but you do not spend that much time with someone without crossing the line or becoming to familiar. It is human nature people!


----------



## Entropy3000

RClawson said:


> Ok let me see if I can spell it out a bit more clearly by using a personal illustration.
> 
> My wife has always had female friends that detract from our relationship and the time we spend together. Years ago when we moved to a new town she became very close with another woman that lived in our court. They became walking partners. It was great, She got in shape, was feeling much better about herself and it showed. I was commuting to the corporate job from hell and it was early in my career and I had the weekends with the family. I knew she was spending about 1-2 hours a week walking and conversing with her friend so I got a bit annoyed when she was doing it on Saturday mornings as well. I asked her if she would stop so we could have time together. Without batting an eye she said no. I was so dumbstruck I did not know what to say. I had no idea what an EA was but she was in one.
> Today she is in a high powered position and very successful. She walks regularly, weather permitting, with a colleague she get's along with. She refuses to take walks with me, which is quite hurtful. A couple of weeks ago she went out to dinner with her friend and another colleague. At eleven she got home and stated that the other colleague went home at 6 but they talked in the car for 4 hours. She stated "that it was good to have some time to catch up". I guess they do not talk when they walk 3-4 nights a week.
> 
> I am sorry but you do not spend that much time with someone without crossing the line or becoming to familiar. It is human nature people!


 This saddens me to hear. But this is very pertinent to this thread indeed.


----------



## TRy

Reggiethelion said:


> I didn't go along with it from the beginning, it was supposed to be a running group but all the other people dropped out/couldn't keep up. I have no veto power, I tried very directly, and she has decided this is what she is doing. I am not at the point where I am going to leave over this, but I don't feel like I have veto power at this point, no.


 You have no control over her but you do have control over yourself. Stop enabling her. Stop watching the children when she is suppose to be running with the other man (OM). Leave the house if you have to, but do not watch the children.

Tell her that since she left her boyfriend of 3 years for you where you where just friends in a sporting activity, you have reason to be concerned. Also tell her that it was suppose to be a group activity not a one on one where he has more quality alone time with your wife every week than you do. Throw in the fact that they work together and he has too much closeness with her for your comfort. Tell her that you will not babysit the children and enable her to spend so much one on one time with another man. Tell her that if she does not respect your wishes not to train with this other man, you will not respect her wishes to babysit. 

Tell her that you are disappointed that she has chosen this sporting activity and what the OM might think if she dropped training with him over you and your marraige. Also point out that it is interesting that others in the group dropped out of the training without being so concerned about what the OM might think. There is something very wrong with your wife choosing to be concerned with what this OM might think over what you think. You need to take a stand before it is too late.


----------



## Bambusa

RClawson said:


> detract from our relationship and the time we spend together.


This is one point that that I would see as a detrimental issue. Not trying to force your views on what is right and wrong on to someone else.

If the values are so different and a compromise cannot be found, then it's an issue for the relationship. And the key is something that is reasonable and fair. 

Entropy, just because I don't agree with your view, does not mean I therefore must fit some other category of someone who puts friendship over marriage. My marriage is very important to me. I also have needs/dreams/values that are very important to me too. 

Just because I don't see eye to eye with my husband on something does not mean that I am placing that, over my husband. There is a difference between putting something that is very important to me over something that is important to my husband at that moment in time vs putting something first over my husband as a person. 

To me, it's enmeshment to believe that someone HAS to share the same thoughts, feelings, dreams and values as the other person. Sometimes they marry up and sometimes they don't. This is one of those moments. 

Sure it's really upsetting to him and hell, if I had met someone who cheated on their last wife with me I'd probably be feeling a bit threatened by it too. 

There are some variables in there though, one, she is married to the OP, they have children together, it may have been a one off and if he feels it's not and that he has reason not to trust her then there is a bigger problem than her working out with another man.

Trust for me is a huge thing. Real or perceived, if I can't trust someone I couldn't be in a relationship with them. The games that would play with your head would be terrible.

I don't believe in cheating on someone because that is part of my core values. It wouldn't matter if I was in the most unhappy marriage I could never do that to myself, let alone someone else and I feel my husband and I share that same value.

No amount of chemicals floating around in the air would ever entice me to throw those values away.

I'd be asking myself why I had such a big problem with it. What is it about her jogging with another man that is really upsetting me at my core and for me that would likely help me to decide what to do.

Just telling her she can't do it is obviously not working. He's told her to stop and she's said I can't/won't/don't want to. So there is a stalemate. Where to from here?

How important is it to the OP? If she continues is this something that is a definite deal breaker. If so then it might be worth sitting down and explaining to her that he feels THAT passionately about it, in which case he may have to call it. 

I do like the idea of becoming involved. It may not be at their level but maybe arrange to all meet at a track and you play stopwatch for her to see how her time is improving etc. Then you could judge the interaction for yourself.


----------



## Bambusa

TRy said:


> Stop watching the children


I have a problem with this particular way of dealing with an issue. They are not just HER children, they are THEIR children. He is not doing her a babysitting favour. They have a shared responsibility for them. 

If it's my boundary and something that was critical to me, I would find another consequence.

I don't know what the answer is. 

When you've spoken to her about the fact that you two met the same way and she left her then partner for you, hence you feel uncomfortable with the current situation, what did she say?


----------



## eowyn

Reggiethelion said:


> Has your wife cheated on you with EA/PA in the past?
> Have you cheated on your wife?
> 
> *No cheating by either of us in the past on each other, but 13 years ago, my wife left her then boyfriend of 3 years for me, and we started off as friends doing athletic pursuits....*


OP, I didn't read the entire thread, just the answers to my initial questions.... With respect to the one you answered above, don't you think this is too much of a coincidence? I am not an expert at how EA/PA would begin, but I would imagine either (1) out of ignorance and/or negligence from both sides or (2) if initiated by one person who wants to involve the other person and arranges for some kind of a setup. 

In this respect, here is my question...

1. 13 yrs ago when you and your wife started athletic pursuits who had initiated these athletic pursuits? You or Her? Was is just the two of you? Can you elaborate little bit on this episode?

2. For the current running sessions with her colleague, you mention it was going to be a group and then few people dropped etc etc.... and now it is just him and her. Do you know whose idea was it to begin with? His idea, Her idea or was it suggested by someone else in the group that dropped out?

If the answer to both above questions is HER I would say this is not a red flag, but rather a *SUPER RED FLAG*. :redcard:


----------



## the guy

So your wife is cheating you out of a emotional connection with the marriage and is spending a boat load of time with some one other then her spouse......
Her priorty is with her running and not with you and disrespects your wishes to stop spending all her time with her running partner...

So her marriage partner is replaced with a running partner and you think you are at an impasse......

I suggest you go find some one that wants to put thier marriage on the front burner and her other interest on the back burner, but thats just me. 
I mean if I'm going to put up with a chick I better get some reward for it. I mean your working your but off for a marriage and your spouse ain't doing jack sh!t about it.

So your wifes marriage is fine and your marriage sucks, and you will put up with this unhappiness b/c your affraid to let her go. I guess she has your number and knows damb well your not going any were so she continues.

Sorry brother!

From what I read thats my $0.02.


----------



## eowyn

Reggiethelion said:


> Is this man committed/married?
> 
> *Other guy is single since last fall*
> 
> *:redcard: This again is a red flag. The fact that he is "Available"
> 
> :redcard: :redcard: And here are two more, since the interaction involves (1) workplace colleague AND (2) physical activity!!!
> 
> Most of the EA/PA posts I read here involved either of these (so many posts on trainers and work colleagues!!) In this case it is a combination of work colleague and physical activity which seems to be a very dangerous combination for developing an EA/PA.
> 
> My only advice, listen to folks on this forum when they say "do not take it lightly" and follow the instructions required to enforce some boundaries in your marriage.
> *
> 
> Have you met him?
> 
> *Yes*
> 
> *Some information on your meeting and your perception about him might be helpful (although won't really change what you need to do). How did you find him? Did you have a conversation?
> *


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> I have a problem with this particular way of dealing with an issue. They are not just HER children, they are THEIR children. He is not doing her a babysitting favour. They have a shared responsibility for them.


 I am not saying that they are not his children or that he is doing her a favor by babysitting them. What I am saying is just do not enable her to run by babysitting during those 5 hours that she wants to spend with the other man (OM). There are plenty of other hours in the week that he can make up for it and carry his share of the load, just not during the hours of her choosing that she wants to be with the OM.

Why is it that those that are cheated on are held to a standard of perfection, when the cheater gets to hold themselves to no standard at all? The answer is because those that are cheated on let them. It may not make him the perfect husband not to babysit their children so that his wife can be with OM, but it sure makes him a smart one. Again, he should stop watching the children when she is going to use that time to be with the OM. BTW cheaters always say that the OM is just a friend, always have a reason to spend time with the OM, and always get mad at you and call you jealous and controlling when you try to stop them from seeing the OM.


----------



## Bambusa

TRy said:


> Why is it that those that are cheated on are held to a standard of perfection, when the cheater gets to hold themselves to no standard at all?


The children thing I could just see issues with and I personally would have a very big problem with it if my husband used that as a tool. That's just me.

I don't believe one should be held to perfection and the other not.

However, you can never control how someone else behaves, you are only responsible for how you behave. Believing it's ok to behave badly because someone else did is a slippery slope.


----------



## Bambusa

I like knowing that my husband is with me and does not cheat because he loves me, not because I control his environment.

If he was going to cheat I'd rather it happen sooner than later.


----------



## tobio

Bambusa said:


> I like knowing that my husband is with me and does not cheat because he loves me, not because I control his environment.
> 
> If he was going to cheat I'd rather it happen sooner than later.


I used to be like you. I used to very much possess the same thoughts and beliefs about opposite-sex friendships and jealousy issues. I would argue them til the cows came home. And believe me, what you say, whwn I used to say those things too, I also argued the same things you do. 

What happened? My now-husband had an EA. Was on a months' job at work and was spotted by a girl working there. She made a beeline for him and pursued him HARD. They spend time at work talking about all sorts, she did attentive little things for him. He looked her up on Facebook and she gave him her number. 

They ended up kissing and thus ensued him being in a "fog" that caused us no end of trouble for a couple of months. We had to do counselling after he moved out not knowing what he wanted anymore and left me at home with out five-month-old baby - as well as the three older ones.

Now? Yeah I'm not so liberal about it. He was the poster boy for "no way I'd ever cheat." He did not go out looking to cheat. To him it was someone being friendly. Progressed to attraction from that. Boundaries were overstepped bit by little bit. Justified by being "friends."

He looks back now at how he acted and it is safe to say he is incredibly embarrassed. It is SO EASY for it to happen like this.

I still like you feel I wouldn't cheat. However I am acutely aware now of how attraction can be fuelled and I believe Entropy's point is not that the OP's W IS cheating but that the environment she has placed herself in - of one-to-one time with a single guy, is ripe for feelings to develop. It may be very noble to say that even if you are attracted to someone it doesn't mean you'd cross the line, but why put yourself in a position to test that - it's a test that isn't just governed by logic but a shedload of hormones whether you feel you can fight those or not. The odds aren't governed totally by your good rationality.

The other major thing is that his W is not respecting the OP's feelings on this one. I think he has some careful thinking to do about how to proceed. There is no shame in acting to protect your marriage rather than heing busy considering why he doesn't like it. He knows that and he is completely justified.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RClawson

Tobio,

You are a wise woman. A few month's back when my wife and I had a discussion about my suspicions that she was cheating she was literally floored. She related that "she was just not built like that and would never ever cheat". I let her know I felt the same way but given the right circumstances and being in the right place at the wrong time with the "wrong" person that anyone is vulnerable. She got a bit sheepish and agreed.

I do not think she had a PA but someone had designs on her and she was liking that and I think she was enjoying the attention. Hey it is a nice validation when you are approaching your 50's. No one is immune from succumbing to this temptation given the right circumstances.


----------



## Cosmos

If you're feeling uncomfortable with it, and your wife refuses to stop running with this guy, she is disrespecting your feelings and ignoring a potential threat to your relationship.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> However, you can never control how someone else behaves, you are only responsible for how you behave. Believing it's ok to behave badly because someone else did is a slippery slope.


 If the wife was not running with the other man, she would not need him to babysit those 5 hours a week. She is seeking to control the husband by requiring that he actually babysit so that she can spend time with the other man (OM). He cannot control her but he should not let her control him. Not watching the children to protect his marraige is not behaving badly but is actually the best course of action not just for himself but for his children. He needs to take take the power back from his wife by taking action with what he does have control over, his own deeds. It it insane to babysit so that she can effectively start dating another man and then passively do nothing but complain about it. He needs to take action now. Words to his wife will not work because she is in a fog.


----------



## piggyoink

Bambusa said:


> I like knowing that my husband is with me and does not cheat because he loves me, not because I control his environment.


Do you share passwords with him?


----------



## lamaga

Piggy: I can't speak for Bambusa, but no, my H and I do not share passwords. We respect each other as adults, and we respect each other's privacy. I know, I know, not a popular stance around here. But you asked.


----------



## heavensangel

Before she started running, did she even ask you if you'd be interested in running as a couple again? Why did you two stop to begin with? 

Who, if anyone, was watching the children of the other group runners? Or is she the only one married w/children? If there's no babysitter for you to go and either join her/them or do an activity you'd enjoy at the same time, the there's no babysitter, period. 

Basically, what your wife is doing is termed an 'independent' behavior. That in and of itself, there's nothing wrong with as long as there's 'enthusiastic agreement' between the two SP in relation to the activity. The fact that she refuses to respect your wishes or even offer compromise on this with you speaks volumes to me. 

IMO.....There should NEVER be a time when a SP puts the interests of themselves or someone else over the marriage relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

piggyoink said:


> Yeah people should have the ability to choose their friends without so many funny restrictions being put into place.


A real easy way to do that is to stay single. Marriage tends to require those funny little restrictions. They are called boundaries.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> This is one point that that I would see as a detrimental issue. Not trying to force your views on what is right and wrong on to someone else.
> 
> If the values are so different and a compromise cannot be found, then it's an issue for the relationship. And the key is something that is reasonable and fair.
> 
> Entropy, just because I don't agree with your view, does not mean I therefore must fit some other category of someone who puts friendship over marriage. My marriage is very important to me. I also have needs/dreams/values that are very important to me too.
> 
> Just because I don't see eye to eye with my husband on something does not mean that I am placing that, over my husband. There is a difference between putting something that is very important to me over something that is important to my husband at that moment in time vs putting something first over my husband as a person.
> 
> To me, it's enmeshment to believe that someone HAS to share the same thoughts, feelings, dreams and values as the other person. Sometimes they marry up and sometimes they don't. This is one of those moments.
> 
> Sure it's really upsetting to him and hell, if I had met someone who cheated on their last wife with me I'd probably be feeling a bit threatened by it too.
> 
> There are some variables in there though, one, she is married to the OP, they have children together, it may have been a one off and if he feels it's not and that he has reason not to trust her then there is a bigger problem than her working out with another man.
> 
> Trust for me is a huge thing. Real or perceived, if I can't trust someone I couldn't be in a relationship with them. The games that would play with your head would be terrible.
> 
> I don't believe in cheating on someone because that is part of my core values. It wouldn't matter if I was in the most unhappy marriage I could never do that to myself, let alone someone else and I feel my husband and I share that same value.
> 
> No amount of chemicals floating around in the air would ever entice me to throw those values away.
> 
> I'd be asking myself why I had such a big problem with it. What is it about her jogging with another man that is really upsetting me at my core and for me that would likely help me to decide what to do.
> 
> Just telling her she can't do it is obviously not working. He's told her to stop and she's said I can't/won't/don't want to. So there is a stalemate. Where to from here?
> 
> How important is it to the OP? If she continues is this something that is a definite deal breaker. If so then it might be worth sitting down and explaining to her that he feels THAT passionately about it, in which case he may have to call it.
> 
> I do like the idea of becoming involved. It may not be at their level but maybe arrange to all meet at a track and you play stopwatch for her to see how her time is improving etc. Then you could judge the interaction for yourself.


I thought the same about chemicals. Sorry I thought you were not actually married. Just in an LTR. But no matter. 

Discounting the chemicals is easy to do if you have never been under their influence or do not realize you are. 

If your friendships are more important than your husband then I suggest you are under the influence of chemicals now. We are not talking about not having sex. We are talking about emotional infidelity. We are also talking about respect. I hear you argue that you will hold your ground on this. I am sorry for you and your husband you are not close enough to be able to deal with this in a less hurtful manner.

But indeed this is your choice.


----------



## Entropy3000

the guy said:


> So your wife is cheating you out of a emotional connection with the marriage and is spending a boat load of time with some one other then her spouse......
> Her priorty is with her running and not with you and disrespects your wishes to stop spending all her time with her running partner...
> 
> So her marriage partner is replaced with a running partner and you think you are at an impasse......
> 
> I suggest you go find some one that wants to put thier marriage on the front burner and her other interest on the back burner, but thats just me.
> I mean if I'm going to put up with a chick I better get some reward for it. I mean your working your but off for a marriage and your spouse ain't doing jack sh!t about it.
> 
> So your wifes marriage is fine and your marriage sucks, and you will put up with this unhappiness b/c your affraid to let her go. I guess she has your number and knows damb well your not going any were so she continues.
> 
> Sorry brother!
> 
> From what I read thats my $0.02.


I confess this would be a deal breaker for me.


----------



## Entropy3000

recent_cloud said:


> oh it is indeed about trust.
> 
> we set boundaries based on our level of trust.


We trust our spouses to not put themselves at risk. In that light trust has indeed been broken here.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> The children thing I could just see issues with and I personally would have a very big problem with it if my husband used that as a tool. That's just me.
> 
> I don't believe one should be held to perfection and the other not.
> 
> However, you can never control how someone else behaves, you are only responsible for how you behave. Believing it's ok to behave badly because someone else did is a slippery slope.


Exactly so he needs to stop enabling her disrespectful behavior. This is why it is about is boundaries. 

Moreover as their father he needs to do what he can to influence his wife from her poor behavior as it pertains to the family. He actually has a duty to do this. At risk now is not only his wife but his children. If they were single he could just walk way. The reason this is so bad is that there are children involved.


----------



## TBT

lamaga said:


> I agree, Bambusa, but because I am a pedantic S*B, please allow me to point out that it's "platonic". Not plutonic


But it's appropriate for an out of this world relationship!


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> I like knowing that my husband is with me and does not cheat because he loves me, not because I control his environment.
> 
> If he was going to cheat I'd rather it happen sooner than later.


So then you agree that the husband here should have forced her to make a decision earlier and not let this drag on.

I suggest you look further into EAs. Knowing what they are all about is important to anyone in a marriage. It is not a black and white world.


----------



## iheartlife

We share passwords. It's not that big a deal. My Internet shopping email account is a snore. My personal email is always open on our shared computer. My phone isn't kept on my person, but rather in a common area where I charge it. It's not an issue of having any privacy that needs respecting; my life has always been an open book to my H. I'm just not that dark, I guess. And I don't feel compelled to discuss my H with friends and relatives; if I have an issue, I bring it up with him directly. Privacy would just mean I had something to hide; but I don't, so it never occurred to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RClawson

Human nature tells us that most who know them as a couple and see her out running with him every evening believe that something does not smell right in their relationship. I live in a very small town. No way would I let my wife run 5 days a week with a guy 5 nights a week. 

I know it is only talk but most would be thinking the same things most are thinking in this post. It is not just inappropriate it is wildly inappropriate. 

I know I am just unenlightened. No actually I have just "lived" a little.


----------



## Bambusa

piggyoink said:


> Do you share passwords with him?


We both log into each others computers for various reasons. My iPad holds movies, photo's and music that he can't get on his notebook so he is always in mine and I go into his for photo's that he uploads etc.

I have nothing to hide on mine and he has nothing to hide on his. We don't snoop each others emails and we do respect each others privacy, we check if we can borrow it first, but we do have each others passwords and if we don't, we've given each other the knowledge to know how to access each others passwords on all things including netbanking logons, bank accounts, computers, phones, everything.

I honestly can't think of any passwords we don't share.

We've never sat down and said, we should share passwords, it's just been through convenience and necessity that we have.

We both agree that the passwords are to protect our information from other people, not from each other.

Tobio I caught my ex husband in bed with another woman. I've experienced the serial cheating partner. I guess I just don't want to let the thought of what someone might do take up so much room in my head.

Entropy, you keep sticking to this stance that because I don't agree with your point of view, I must not love my husband and that I put friendships over that. Nowhere in any of my posts have I ever made that statement. I HAVE said, that I DO place a great deal of importance on the things that are important to me, most times that gels with what is important to my husband and on occasion it doesn't. You are obviously not reading what I am writing but manipulating it into something else entirely. 

I find it very hard to take what you say seriously when you do that. 

I didn't come down in the last shower. I understand what an EA is. However I don't share all of your views.

I don't disagree that the OP may have cause for concern. I don't disagree that he has a right to explain how he feels to his wife and request that she chose another partner. 

She has a right to certain things too and a marriage doesn't give one person rights over another, it doesn't mean that you should give up everything that is important to you when your other half doesn't feel the same way you do. I think the OP gets that. 

He's stated that he doesn't believe it's worth ending the marriage over, so it's obviously not a deal breaker for him but he's hurt and frightened by the prospect that she may develop a relationship with this other person because that's how he met her. I get that.

The facts...

She didn't seek this guy out to go running, they started as a group and others backed out, leaving the two of them to it.

There is absolutely no evidence in this instance that they are anything more than running partners and all the assumptions in the world don't make it fact. 

It's my opinion that someone shouldn't be judged on something they 'may' do, if there is not a pattern of behaviour there to suggest she might or punished for the behaviour of what someone else did in the past.

He's stated what is important to him and she's stood her ground on what is important to her. They BOTH obviously feel passionately about it enough to not back down. What's the compromise that both could live with?


----------



## Bambusa

Entropy3000 said:


> 'should have forced her to make a decision'.


These are phrases I find very telling. 

I don't believe anyone has a right to force anyone to do anything. She's not a slave, she's his wife, a human being. They disagree on something, there needs to be a compromise.


----------



## Bambusa

Entropy3000 said:


> Discounting the chemicals is easy to do if you have never been under their influence or do not realize you are.


I've never been under the influence of these EA chemicals you keep talking about, but then although I have male friends that I catch up with over lunch/coffee I have never put myself in an environment with that type of person or where something like that would happen. 

My husband doesn't decide that for me, 'I do' and vice versa.

If you have to worry about that because you believe your partner might cheat then maybe you are with the wrong person to begin with.


----------



## iheartlife

Bambusa said:


> Tobio I caught my ex husband in bed with another woman. I've experienced the serial cheating partner. I guess I just don't want to let the thought of what someone might do take up so much room in my head.


Out of curiosity, did he have an emotional affair with any of these women? Did he have a romance and become infatuated with them and experience it as "being in love?"

I am also a wife whose husband had an emotional affair with a co-worker. They shared intimate details about their marriages, and it was off to the races. In his excellent book, His Needs / Her Needs, Dr. Harley explains that this type of intimate sharing is so dangerous because it is the #1 way that emotional affairs start. In his view, this type of intimate conversation is reserved for marriage for this very reason.

As Rclawson pointed out (and those familiar with the threads in CWI know) the gender of the person is not relevant; it's the nature of the relationship. At some point enough time is spent, enough energy is invested, that it is damaging the marriage. Maybe the OP is a very sensitive, jealous person. But I seriously doubt it.

When I look back at the OP's posts, one thing comes through loud and clear. She is almost surely spending more time with completely undivided attention alone with this man than she is with her husband.

OP (if you ever come back), how much quality one-on-one time do you spend with your wife, without the children? A good healthy marriage requires at least 15 hours a week of such time, according to most marriage experts. 20 if the marriage isn't doing well. I think I know the answer to this question, but may as well throw it out there anyhow.

And to those talking about babysitting: this rankles me like nothing else. My husband was a huge runner (he's been injured so he doesn't do it much any more). When we first had kids, he expected me to sit at home with the children while he spent HOURS AND HOURS at his chosen hobby. So here's another question for the OP--do you get the same amount of hours each week to indulge in your favorite hobbies or exercise while she takes HER turn watching the children? I think I know the answer to that as well.

The marathon is hopefully something temporary, a goal she's set. It's _extremely_ time consuming to train for a marathon. There are tons of people who do it in our area. My H has run quite a few. It is one of those things that sounds great but 20+ mile runs take a VERY long time to complete. This isn't a matter of a jog for even as little as an hour. I hope that you are able to find a solution and compromise that allows her to meet this short term goal while also meeting your needs of alone time with her.

Please let us know if you reach an understanding on your issue.


----------



## Bambusa

iheartlife, no. They were notches on his belt. He'd made a bet with one of his friends to see how many of their other friends girlfriends and wives they could 'knock off'. The winner of the competition would be deemed gods gift to women so to speak. It was a massive ego trip. 

The woman I caught him in bed with he had no feelings towards and it was a one off, he was very quick to toss her aside once I'd caught him. Once he'd conquered her, he moved on to the next one and the next. 

Their friendship ended when my ex slept with his best friends wife (the one he'd made the bet with) and she fell pregnant.

It was an ugly time and an ugly relationship. No amount of me checking up on him made him stop. All it did was play with my head and have me so busy chasing him that I was not focusing on what was important to me.

iheartlife, I agree that I don't believe the OP is being overly sensitive. It's obviously and issue. I also agree that spending more time with someone else than your spouse is not healthy. 

The 'babysitting' comment really bothers me too. As do the comments about controlling or manipulating someone else to achieve what you want.


----------



## iheartlife

The reason I suspected that his activities didn't have an emotional component came from your posts.

Emotional affairs are their own beasts. They are insidious. They start out innocently and progress from there. They are trojan horses in the marriage. 

The best guardian against an emotional affair is, of course, to have a strong and healthy marriage. But that is just the frontline initial defense. You have to guard your flanks as well. This means that spending one-on-one time with people who are potentially sexually attractive should be very limited if it occurs at all. 

You can spot people who haven't suffered through an emotional affair from 1,000 miles away. They are the ones who believe that it's controlling to respectfully request their spouses to limit their alone time with people who are essentially potential sexual partners.

Everyone thinks that they would never become infatuated this way. No one wakes up and looks in the mirror and says, today I'll start an emotional affair. The very dangerous nature of emotional affairs rests on the fact that each person thinks THEY are unique and THEY would never do such a thing to betray their partners. 

It only takes about 1 to 2 weeks to become infatuated with someone to the point that it becomes a powerful compulsion (a very bad habit). Infatuation is a very strong human emotion. It does not listen to reason--it is a biological phenomenon that is intended to further the species. We can be as enlightened as we like in 2012, but there are some things that the rational human mind has yet to conquer through sheer force of will, and true infatuation is one of them. We ignore that simple fact at our own respective peril.


----------



## Bambusa

iheartlife. I guess the key word for me in your last post is 'respectfully request'. There is a big difference between respectfully requesting and controlling/forcing/dictating or manipulating. 

It sounds like the OP HAS respectfully requested and his wife has declined to agree. 

So where to from there?


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> These are phrases I find very telling.
> 
> I don't believe anyone has a right to force anyone to do anything. She's not a slave, she's his wife, a human being. They disagree on something, there needs to be a compromise.


So we fundamentally have different beliefs.

I do have this right in my marriage. My wife does as well. She actually had to use it once. I never have. 

You should never compromise your fundamental beliefs. Ever.

Trust me as we experience more in life we learn. The more we learn the less we know.

My wife and I have a very equitable relationship. We are full partners. On very rare occasions I am the head of the household. But that is emergency time. You know what? My wife has never disrespected me. Ever. She is a very strong competent woman. We share everything. On a day to day basis my wife is at the helm for many things. We complement each other. But we are very capable of invoking our rights that we gave each other when we took our vows. Many people do this same thing. Maybe my wife and I do it better than others. Idunno. I do not wish to presume that however.

Your marriage is different than mine it seems. My wife and I gave ourselves to each other. We are full partners. Meaning we have veto power when it comes to these things. It IS a higher plane than most can attain. We do not let others come between us. I came close but since my wife had veto power she used it to save our marriage. I so love her for that.


----------



## iheartlife

Bambusa said:


> iheartlife. I guess the key word for me in your last post is 'respectfully request'. There is a big difference between respectfully requesting and controlling/forcing/dictating or manipulating.
> 
> It sounds like the OP HAS respectfully requested and his wife has declined to agree.
> 
> So where to from there?


I would ask for marriage counseling. I wouldn't wait around to find out why she had chosen to spend 45 to 60 hours a week (counting their workday) with another man.

One tricky thing is, however, that marriage counseling often doesn't work once one of the partners is infatuated with someone else. MC is hard work and it's unpleasant. It's about compromises. Infatuation is about lollipops and rainbows and unicorns.

So that is the risk that is run by hoping that MC can resolve the issue. MC can help you reach a compromise when you come to a very serious impasse. It is, however, not very likely to put an end to an infatuation. Again, it's a matter of the power of the emotion.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> *I've never been under the influence of these EA chemicals you keep talking about,* but then although I have male friends that I catch up with over lunch/coffee I have never put myself in an environment with that type of person or where something like that would happen.
> 
> My husband doesn't decide that for me, 'I do' and vice versa.
> 
> If you have to worry about that because you believe your partner might cheat then maybe you are with the wrong person to begin with.


Then you don't know. 

Sorry that you don't get what we are talking about here. For some of us we have a level of commitment that you may not have. Maybe you will in time.

There is much more to this stuff than a discussion of cheating. Sorry you are missing this.


----------



## Bambusa

Entropy3000 said:


> So we have fundamentally have different beliefs.
> 
> I do. You should never compromise your fundamental beliefs. Ever.
> 
> I have probably lived more than you have yet. You may very weel change your mind ... in time.
> 
> My wife and I have a very equitable relationship. You know what? She has never disrespected me. Ever.
> 
> Your marriage is different than mine it seems. My wife and I gave ourselves to each other. We are full partners. Meaning we have veto power when it comes to these things. It IS a higher plane than most can attain.


Entropy, we do have very different fundamental beliefs, and I have respected your different views. However I don't feel that you are showing the same level of respect towards mine, when you make judgemental comments that imply something sinister just because I don't share the same view that you do. 

You are putting two and two together and coming up with 50. 

I don't agree with you on some points and from that you deduce that there must be something wrong with me or my marriage? Or that I haven't lived? Seriously?

You seem to jump very quickly from 'she doesn't agree with me, therefore she must fit XYZ unflattering category'. You make some pretty big leaps from my not agreeing with you on this point to a very big stretch in all other aspects.

I find some of your comments derogatory and disrespectful.

Instead of agreeing to disagree you have tried to imply that my thoughts are flawed and that there is something wrong with me or my marriage because of it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Bambusa said:


> Entropy, we do have very different fundamental beliefs, and I have respected your different views. However I don't feel that you are showing the same level of respect towards mine, when you make judgemental comments that imply something sinister just because I don't share the same view that you do.
> 
> You are putting two and two together and coming up with 50.
> 
> I don't agree with you on some points and from that you deduce that there must be something wrong with me or my marriage? Or that I haven't lived? Seriously?
> 
> You seem to jump very quickly from 'she doesn't agree with me, therefore she must fit XYZ unflattering category'. You make some pretty big leaps from my not agreeing with you on this point to a very big stretch in all other aspects.
> 
> I find some of your comments derogatory and disrespectful.
> 
> Instead of agreeing to disagree you have tried to imply that my thoughts are flawed and that there is something wrong with me or my marriage because of it.


My comments are for the OP benefit. I am supporting his need for respect and you are saying he has no right.

So I am challenging this with you.

He needs our support. He knows what his wife doing is wrong and he is right. He has children.

Sorry I am not so PC for you. I just think you are completely way off base.

He has every right in the world to expect his wife to comply with his feelings.

So if you feel disrespected then just imagine what this husband feels ... from his wife. You and I have not taken vows but they have.

Perhaps what we should do is simply hide each others posts. It is an easy thing to do.

I sincerely wish you peace.


----------



## Catherine602

Bambusa said:


> These are phrases I find very telling.
> 
> I don't believe anyone has a right to force anyone to do anything. She's not a slave, she's his wife, a human being. They disagree on something, there needs to be a compromise.


In my relationship I ask two simple questions - how is my husband effected by my activity. How important is the activity to me such that I would continue despite how my husband feels. 

It never occurred to me to think that a request from my husband to do or not do something, rose to the level of a violation of my human rights or an attempt to enslave me. 

I don't have the mental energy or desire to examine the social and legal implication of every request. Besides, don't you think that a strict adherence to doctrinal tenets seems too heavy a burden on a relationship? 

What do you do, keep a book of rules and regulations? How are violations handled? Banishment to the basement for a day or two?


----------



## Bambusa

Catherine, seriously? Where in ANY of my posts have you once read that I suggest a 'request' implies a violation of human rights? If you are going to quote me as above, then please do it in context.

It was the comment that was made suggesting forcing her to do something I have a difference of opinion on. There is a monster of a difference between a request or forcing someone.

I trust and respect my husband to make decisions about whether he is in the right type of environment or not for himself. 

I have no interest in trying to 'force' him into anything, so I've never felt the need to put my husband in a basement.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> These are phrases I find very telling.
> 
> I don't believe anyone has a right to force anyone to do anything. She's not a slave, she's his wife, a human being. They disagree on something, there needs to be a compromise.


 You are playing a word game here. The force being implied is to let your marraige partner know that this is a deal breaker for you. Everyone has a right to do that in a marraige when their marriage is being threatened. 

As for compromise, you should never compromise when you spot the beginning of a potential emotional affair (EA) or physical affair PA). Compromise by the betrayed, when they should have stood their ground, is an element found in almost every affair.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> Entropy, we do have very different fundamental beliefs, and I have respected your different views. However I don't feel that you are showing the same level of respect towards mine, when you make judgemental comments that imply something sinister just because I don't share the same view that you do.


 When you stated that forcing the wife to stop her inappropriate actions was wrong, you stated that she was not a "slave", and you do not think that your statement was a judgmental comment that "implied something sinister"? Do not play hard ball unless you are prepared for people to play hard ball back.


----------



## Bambusa

TRy said:


> You are playing a word game here. The force being implied is to let your marraige partner know that this is a deal breaker for you. Everyone has a right to do that in a marraige when their marriage is being threatened.
> 
> As for compromise, you should never compromise when you spot the beginning of a potential emotional affair (EA) or physical affair PA). Compromise by the betrayed, when they should have stood their ground, is an element found in almost every affair.


There is no word game, it was the general tone I took from a number of comments made by the same person. 

You say you should never compromise. He has made his stance clear, she has made hers. What do you suggest he do?


----------



## RClawson

Oh I don't know Bambusa something that will knock her out of the "heavy fog" she is in? You seem to think he should just suck it up and take it like a man?


----------



## Bambusa

Oh dear. I can see this is getting nowhere.

My fingers certainly didn't type that and I most certainly didn't think he should 'suck it up and take it like a man'.

Amazing.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> You say you should never compromise. He has made his stance clear, she has made hers. What do you suggest he do?


 He cannot control her actions but he can control his own. He should stop enabling her to spend so much time with the other man (OM) by not staying home to babysit when she is going to see the OM.


----------



## Bambusa

I've never disagreed with him asserting his boundaries. 

I've disagreed with using, not babysitting his kids as a way of doing that though.


----------



## Hicks

To the OP.
This is an affair waiting to happen. There are 2 reasons for this: 1. You and your wife are lacking time spent together connectingas husband and wife and 2. She is spending time connecting and having recreational companionship (a core activity of marriage) with another male. You cannot sustain a marriage without an emotional connection with your wife. The sense of urgency for you is much higher since she has an opportunity to develop the emotional connection via togetherness with someone else. It is a grave mistake in any marriage to depend on someone's sense of values to avoid an affair, since human beings are wired to form pair bonds which are created through time spending vast amounts of together.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Bambusa said:


> I've never disagreed with him asserting his boundaries.
> 
> I've disagreed with using, not babysitting his kids as a way of doing that though.


Why on the babysitting/taking care of his kids? You note that you realize that not everything that is important to you will be something your husband is on board with (and presumably vice versae). In that case, is your spouse morally obligated to support that activity, even when they strongly disagree with it? To me, that is a way of creating a "consequence" for violating his boundary without throwing away the entire marriage.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> I've never disagreed with him asserting his boundaries.
> 
> I've disagreed with using, not babysitting his kids as a way of doing that though.


 I gave an actionable thing that he could do to asset his boundaries. Not enabling her to see the other man (OM) by not staying home to babysit when she is going to see the OM. If you do not like my idea, what specific actionable action do you recommend that he do instead? Doing nothing is not an alternative not just for him but for his children.

Why do you have this play nice set of rules that the betrayed spouse must follow, when the cheater is not following any rules? If the marraige ends in divorce, the trauma that the betrayed and his children will endure will make the babysitting issue pale by comparison.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Angel5112 said:


> How does a man go about refusing to "babysit" (which by the way, I HATE that term when applied to the actual parent) his own children? To clarify, what is to stop HER from just proceeding to go?
> 
> The way it is described, it doesn't sound like he is coming home and relieving her of her parenting duty so she can go run. She is just going directly after work. I would also bet that when she runs on the weekend that it is being done early in the morning before everyone wakes.
> 
> So again, let’s say he tells her “I will not watch the kids while you run with him”, I bet she would return with “I am still going to run with him”, or something along those lines…he can’t force her to come home to watch the kids anymore than he can force her to stop running with this guy.
> 
> I agree that it needs to stop but I don't have much confidence in the "I refuse to babysit" approach.


Perhaps, though all he needs to do is find some of his own things to do after work, or on the weekend. If he is out of the house on the weekend before she is, then it is on her to figure out the child care issues.

This scenario reminds me a bit of the thread titled "WHat I have learned" or something like that. The wife was training for marathons and not doing much with the husband or the family. The response that worked for him included getting out and away on his own and doing stuff for himself. I will try and find that link now.


----------



## Entropy3000

IMO, anything short of telling her this is unacceptable is very much a half measure or less. He has stated they will go to counseling while she continues this behavior. He has also stated that if he finds out this has progressed to an EA he will tell her to stop.

Right now it is insult to injury that while she is out running with this guy her husband watches the children. More than a bit of a power game going on here. Suck it up and watch our children while I do what I feel like no matter what you think sorta thing. From a practical standpoint it really comes down to what he does while someone else watches the children. This feels like pouting to me.

Note that she did not offer any compromise like only running with him during the week but not on the weekends. She wants to be with this guy seven days a week. Whatever her intentions she is making sure she gets her fix for this guy. Again this does not have to be intentional to be harmful. But perhaps she is not so innocent. Who knows? The thing is she is going to keep doing it.

This is going to get painful and be drawn out it seems.

This is a major hurdle for them but there are bigger issues surrounding this. This is a symptom of other things. No doubt some resentment already existing mixed in with some eating of cake.


----------



## iheartlife

I may have a hard time being objective in this thread.

It took a very long time for my husband to realize that any time *I* was watching the children, and he was occupying himself with something that wasn't directly in support of the family (working, grocery shopping, yard work, car repair) that this was, essentially turning me into HIS babysitter.

I'm not my children's babysitter, and this man isn't his children's babysitter, either.

No, the babysitter relationship is vis-a-vis each spouse.

It is unfair to take advantage of your partner--to assume that because they are a loving parent and law abiding citizen who will not abandon the children--that they will just magically keep on watching the children while you do whatever you want.

In the olden days, it was the father who stopped by the pub after work and then took his sweet time coming home to his family.

Of course people should be allowed to exercise, to be healthy, to work with their spouses to compromise TOGETHER over how to pursue a goal such as a marathon. But let's not be fooled by the fact that she is exercising and pursuing a life goal, that she's allowed to do it at her family's expense.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

I want to rant, but have thought better of it.


The bottom line is that the OP didn't like this situation, and asked his wife to put a stop to it. For some reason, she did not agree and dismissed his concerns. She may have had good reasons, or bad ones, but the fact remains that he brought her his concerns, and she did not take them on board. Regardless of the rest of it, that's a problem. I think he needs to take her aside and have a meaningful discussion about boundaries, and, possibly one about respect. Not in the "wife needs to obey at all times" sense or anything like that, but, rather, in the "If I have a valid concern and bring it to you, the least you can do is hear it out" sense.


----------



## vi_bride04

Catherine602 said:


> I don't understand why people think it is alright to pursue friendships with the opposite sex when it makes their spouse uncomfortable. How can they enjoy something so trivial when it hurts the person whose feelings they should protect.


:iagree:

I am in the process of leaving my H b/c he has not respected the boundaries we agreed upon (we are both WS) and saw my concern over a friendship as "overreacting". Instead of ending it he went to warn her about me and that I had my sights set on her b/c I was "crazy" 

I see this as protecting the friendship over his marriage. That is a deal breaker b/c of our past troubles with infidelity. And he knows the boundaries....he knows what happens if they are broken. 

Two months after my initial "overreaction" I find chats that were supposed to be deleted about them going to lunch and discussing marital problems together. Yeah, so nothing was going on, huh?

He is more upset about his reputation at work and losing the friend than me moving out and filing for divorce.......


----------



## Almostrecovered

gotta love threads where the OP has a few words and the thread runs away into debateland


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

vi_bride04 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I am in the process of leaving my H b/c he has not respected the boundaries we agreed upon (we are both WS) and saw my concern over a friendship as "overreacting". Instead of ending it he went to warn her about me and that I had my sights set on her b/c I was "crazy"
> 
> I see this as protecting the friendship over his marriage. That is a deal breaker b/c of our past troubles with infidelity. And he knows the boundaries....he knows what happens if they are broken.
> 
> Two months after my initial "overreaction" I find chats that were supposed to be deleted about them going to lunch and discussing marital problems together. Yeah, so nothing was going on, huh?
> 
> He is more upset about his reputation at work and losing the friend than me moving out and filing for divorce.......


Sounds like you are better off, if you don't mind me saying so. Especially if there had issues in the past.


----------



## vi_bride04

Unsure in Seattle said:


> Sounds like you are better off, if you don't mind me saying so. Especially if there had issues in the past.


No i do not mind at all. I am coming to that realization as well.

If you want to read all the drama my thread is in private members section.

I wish OP would chime back in....this is a serious issue ...the disrespect his wife is showing to him and the marriage


----------



## TRy

Angel5112 said:


> How does a man go about refusing to "babysit" (which by the way, I HATE that term when applied to the actual parent) his own children? To clarify, what is to stop HER from just proceeding to go?
> 
> The way it is described, it doesn't sound like he is coming home and relieving her of her parenting duty so she can go run. She is just going directly after work. I would also bet that when she runs on the weekend that it is being done early in the morning before everyone wakes.
> 
> So again, let’s say he tells her “I will not watch the kids while you run with him”, I bet she would return with “I am still going to run with him”, or something along those lines…he can’t force her to come home to watch the kids anymore than he can force her to stop running with this guy.
> 
> I agree that it needs to stop but I don't have much confidence in the "I refuse to babysit" approach.


 He can be the one that does not come home from work or that gets up early so that she does not have babysitting. It does not have to work every time for it to be disruptive and get her and the other man's (OM) attention.


----------



## Bambusa

Angel5112 said:


> How does a man go about refusing to "babysit" (which by the way, I HATE that term when applied to the actual parent) his own children? I don't have much confidence in the "I refuse to babysit" approach.


My thoughts exactly!



Tall Average Guy said:


> Perhaps, though all he needs to do is find some of his own things to do after work, or on the weekend. If he is out of the house on the weekend before she is, then it is on her to figure out the child care issues.


Isn't that a bit Passive Aggressive?



Unsure in Seattle said:


> The bottom line is that the OP didn't like this situation, and asked his wife to put a stop to it. For some reason, she did not agree and dismissed his concerns. She may have had good reasons, or bad ones, but the fact remains that he brought her his concerns, and she did not take them on board. Regardless of the rest of it, that's a problem. I think he needs to take her aside and have a meaningful discussion about boundaries, and, possibly one about respect. Not in the "wife needs to obey at all times" sense or anything like that, but, rather, in the "If I have a valid concern and bring it to you, the least you can do is hear it out" sense.


Spot on!


----------



## warlock07

Bambusa said:


> My thoughts exactly!
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't that a bit Passive Aggressive?
> 
> 
> 
> Spot on!


It isn't passive aggressive. he was supporting her activity until now. Now he won't go out of his way to. It would be passive aggressive if she did not know his problem about her activity. And how else can they fix this issue? She won't listen to his concerns.


----------



## Bambusa

TRy said:


> Why do you have this play nice set of rules that the betrayed spouse must follow, when the cheater is not following any rules? If the marraige ends in divorce, the trauma that the betrayed and his children will endure will make the babysitting issue pale by comparison.


Because I personally don't believe two wrongs make a right and I don't believe it will do anything but breed resentment in both parties. 

It's not babysitting when it's your own children. To me that implies that your responsibility for them ends when you feel like it. It doesn't work that way. The babysitting thing is a bit of a trigger for me, if my husband used that one it would not achieve the outcome he'd hoped for by a long shot.

If my husband came to me and TOLD me to stop or he would stop babysitting OUR kids, then I'd be on the defensive straight away. 

If he comes to me and talks calmly and rationally about how he's feeling, I'm more inclined to listen and make a decision.

IF it was so critically important to me that I continue with it, then I might talk to him about what it would take for him to feel comfortable with it and work through some of that. 

If I still refused to listen, he has the right to assert a boundary. I just don't know what a fair consequence would be for that, because I honestly can't place myself in that position. Just the babysitting thing for me personally would be a sure fire way of escalating it and I think a lot of other women would feel the same way.


----------



## TRy

Bambusa said:


> Because I personally don't believe two wrongs make a right and I don't believe it will do anything but breed resentment in both parties.


 It is not wrong to refuse to enable her cheating. Also, cheaters will resent you for ending contact with the other man (OM) no matter what you do, so worrying about their resentment is irrelevant.



Bambusa said:


> It's not babysitting when it's your own children. To me that implies that your responsibility for them ends when you feel like it. It doesn't work that way. The babysitting thing is a bit of a trigger for me, if my husband used that one it would not achieve the outcome he'd hoped for by a long shot.


 If calling it babysitting bugs you, call it something else, such as “not enable cheating”.



Bambusa said:


> If my husband came to me and TOLD me to stop or he would stop babysitting OUR kids, then I'd be on the defensive straight away.
> 
> If he comes to me and talks calmly and rationally about how he's feeling, I'm more inclined to listen and make a decision.


 If you were the OP’s wife you would care to listen and not be a cheater and there would thus be no need to talk about babysitting in the first place. But you are not anything like his wife, so what works for you does not apply at all here.



Bambusa said:


> IF it was so critically important to me that I continue with it, then I might talk to him about what it would take for him to feel comfortable with it and work through some of that.
> 
> If I still refused to listen, he has the right to assert a boundary. I just don't know what a fair consequence would be for that, because I honestly can't place myself in that position. Just the babysitting thing for me personally would be a sure fire way of escalating it and I think a lot of other women would feel the same way.


 The point is that she has already refused to listen and it is now time to escalate. If “not enable cheating” does not work, the only other option is to file for divorce as a way to wake her up and make a decision. The longer that he lets this go, the more likely that she will pick the other man (OM), so he needs to move forward right now with an actionable plan.


----------



## Cosmos

Bambusa said:


> It's not babysitting when it's your own children. To me that implies that your responsibility for them ends when you feel like it. It doesn't work that way. The babysitting thing is a bit of a trigger for me, if my husband used that one it would not achieve the outcome he'd hoped for by a long shot.
> 
> If my husband came to me and TOLD me to stop or he would stop babysitting OUR kids, then I'd be on the defensive straight away.


I agree. This is not the way for the OP to tackle the issue, and is more likely to create even more problems in the marriage.

Talking to her about his concerns is the only way to go, IMO, and if she isn't listening, I think the marriage is already in trouble. In which case, MC might be a good idea.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Cosmos said:


> I agree. This is not the way for the OP to tackle the issue, and is more likely to create even more problems in the marriage.
> 
> Talking to her about his concerns is the only way to go, IMO, and if she isn't listening, I think the marriage is already in trouble. In which case, MC might be a good idea.


I don't disagree with MC, but I fail to see why any spouse is required to support an activity with which they strongly disagree. He can't forbid her to do it - she is an independent human being that chooses her own actions. 

That being said, she has no right for him to put his life on hold while she pursues activities with another man five days out of the week. He has made his feelings known, and she has decided they are not as important as her activities. For her to expect that he will decide to sit at home and support something he disagrees with is the definition of a doormat. The only problems created by him not doing this is irking her. Since I don't think her feelings more important than his, perhaps this always a frank discussion of that.


----------



## Entropy3000

Cosmos said:


> I agree. This is not the way for the OP to tackle the issue, and is more likely to create even more problems in the marriage.
> 
> Talking to her about his concerns is the only way to go, IMO, and if she isn't listening, I think the marriage is already in trouble. In which case, MC might be a good idea.


Counseling begins today. At some point he will be hearing about some real resentmant towards him. he may get some cluse as to the root causes of her lack of respect for him or her entitlement. It may not be about him but for sure it is about the marriage. Most men will take the responsibility on themselves to fix things. Unfortunately that rarely works. It takes two.

She is very much focused on her pursuit of happiness and feels entitled to do what she feels like doing. Independent behavior. Not sure how many sessions it will take to begin to see this? In the mean time she is doing her thing.


----------



## Cosmos

Entropy3000 said:


> Counseling begins today. At some point he will be hearing about some real resentmant towards him. he may get some cluse as to the root causes of her lack of respect for him or her entitlement. It may not be about him but for sure it is about the marriage. Most men will take the responsibility on themselves to fix things. Unfortunately that rarely works. It takes two.
> 
> She is very much focused on her prusuit of happiness and feels entitled to do what she feels like doing. Independent behavior. Not sure how many sessions it will take to begin to see this? In the mean time she is doing her thing.


Well, I hope the counseling works for them. At the very least, she has little regard for his feelings and that's always a bad sign...


----------



## Entropy3000

Cosmos said:


> Well, I hope the counseling works for them. At the very least, she has little regard for his feelings and that's always a bad sign...


Yes. Indeed. I hope it does as well. It is the chosen path.


----------



## TRy

Tall Average Guy said:


> For her to expect that he will decide to sit at home and support something he disagrees with is the definition of a doormat.


 :iagree: Well said.


----------



## Catherine602

OP please come back and give an update to all the people who are trying to help.


----------

