# paternity testing at birth



## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

If you could get a paternity test at your childs birth without the knowledge or consent of your partner; as in she will not find out you had a paternity test done on your child, nor will she know the results - would you have one?

whether you ask/tell her is optional, whether you have the choice isnt.

why?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I see no reaaon why you shouldn't
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

113 views and 1 post? i think some people are scared....


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I would be for mandatory testing all births.

can't see the harm in it. if your not a coniving sl*t then no problems ....seems like only the people who would have something to hide wouldn't want it.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

tacoma said:


> I see no reaaon why you shouldn't
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you feel the need....why not?








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Yes mandatory available so father could choose now or later to check. Mother and child already have blood work so just save it in system.


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

Anonim, is there something about this issue that hits close to home?

I'm only asking because I know there is another long thread along the same lines...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MrsKy said:


> Anonim, is there something about this issue that hits close to home?
> 
> I'm only asking because I know there is another long thread along the same lines...


It's nice though that no "freedom-fighter" are no this one yet.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

This is starting to sound a lot like the American Quarter Horse registry. Before registration papers are issued for a new foal, a DNA test must be performed and parentage verified. At least all of that DNA testing is less than $100. Also, horses carrying a recessive gene for certain genetic diseases have that noted on their certificate. So, I'm thinking on a child, perhaps the birth certificate would be held until parentage can be verified. 

Is this really the way to go?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Let's see. Preventing fraud. Yea that seems like the way to go. For that matter we are not even prosecuting fraud and we actually say if you've been robbed for 10 years then your reward is that we're going to make you keep paying for 8 more.

Other forms of fraud are criminal offenses. This one should be too.


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

No man should be forced to support a child which is not his.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MrsKy said:


> No man should be forced to support a child which is not his.


It really is that simple.


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## 67flh (Sep 26, 2011)

yes pretty simple,unless you're a cheating skank and you see your meal ticket floating down the river, then it becomes not fair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm not 10% wild about mandatory DNA. But do think that any man should have the rigtht to run a paternity test on a child born to his wife.

The best time to do this is at birth as the test can be done using umbilical cord blood.

However I think that there should be a time limit. A man has 6-12 months to get this done. After that, if he does not have the test done he's accepting that the child is his legal child whether it's his bio child or not. The reason I say this is that children bond to their father. It's not in the child's best interest to have their father (the one who raised them) abandom them some years later.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

67flh said:


> yes pretty simple,unless you're a cheating skank and you see your meal ticket floating down the river, then it becomes not fair.


I can see why a woman who has been a faithful wife would feel insulted if her husband says he wanted a DNA test to make sure the baby is his. 

But I also think that these tests are going to become so common place that most women would not care one way or the other if their husband had the test run.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

So, I will make a home for my husband...cook for him, do his laundry, work and pay 1/2 the bills, make his lunches for work, support him in his dreams, raise the children, and he has the nerve to ask for a paternity test.

Wow.

Should I randomly ask him to get a polygraph test when I have no reason so suspect he's cheating? He works his butt off to provide for us, does the yard work, cleans the things I can't reach/don't like to touch, is a good father...but I should just randomly bust out a request for a polygraph? damn. If I had a reason to, sure. Red flags fly...I get that. But I am not giving him to reason to think I've cheated...what is his validity to want a test? Divine intervention? Either you trust, or you don't. If you don't, then figure out why. Fix it and move on. Sure, don't have 100% blind trust in anybody, but if you can't trust that your wife is bearing YOUR child, then...wow. I have no more words for this.

I'm so happy I'm done having children so i wouldn't be faced with this reality.

ALSO, I dont' want the government to pay shet for these tests. Hell no.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> A man has 6-12 months to get this done. After that, if he does not have the test done he's accepting that the child is his legal child whether it's his bio child or not. The reason I say this is that children bond to their father. It's not in the child's best interest to have their father (the one who raised them) abandom them some years later.


If the father finds out later it can still happen emotionally. Then you have an emotionally detached father paying a cheater woman money for her to raise a kid that isn't his. Kid still loses, the guy loses and the cheater wins.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> So, I will make a home for my husband...cook for him, do his laundry, work and pay 1/2 the bills, make his lunches for work, support him in his dreams, raise the children, and he has the nerve to ask for a paternity test.


I think the thing is he doesn't have that nerve so he doesn't do it. That's the main point of that other thread. Just look at the results without voting. So far we have over 90% of the guys saying they would test without the woman knowing. Which is very revealing in itself. Men doubt but don't want to offend their women. So they don't get tested. 




> but I should just randomly bust out a request for a polygraph?


AH! There is a major difference between men and women there. Men expect women not to trust them. It's mainly women who throw a fit over this trust business. 

If you see a guy throwing a fit over his wife not trusting him completely you almost be sure he has a tail somewhere. 

But maybe we should just let this one be a poll and continue discussing on that other one. No need to spill this all over.


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

*listens to dead horse still being beaten*


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm kinda over it. Some men aren't big suspicious guys who need to know their wife isn't a ho.

But I won't say any more. I wouldn't say anything nice.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

MrsKy said:


> *listens to dead horse still being beaten*


Right? geebus. If you think your wife is a cheater, get a test. Most the men here HAVE MARITAL ISSUES with a wife that is a cheater. So, there's you "poll".


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Right? geebus. If you think your wife is a cheater, get a test. Most the men here HAVE MARITAL ISSUES with a wife that is a cheater. So, there's you "poll".


I don't, i voted for hidden test. Because that's what i would have done if required. I'm a biology major and can make certain genetic predictions that can rule me out as a father. This if my daughter did not have some very particular genetic traits that run in my family.

BTW, feel free to drop by on every male inhabited forum out there and redo this poll. See if the results are that different.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. So you would have thought your wife stepped out on you had your daughter not had some markings. Nice.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Wow. So you would have thought your wife stepped out on you had your daughter not had some markings. Nice.


No, if my daughter did not present those particular markers then i would proceed to examine double recessive traits. I had no reason to believe foulplay. But since i can do this so easily, yes, i would do it. Make no mistake about it. 

My partner is also a biology major. She was fully aware of our capabilities in this. 

There is no way in hell i would be caught in a babytrap.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> I would be for mandatory testing all births.
> 
> can't see the harm in it. if your not a coniving sl*t then no problems ....seems like only the people who would have something to hide wouldn't want it.


I agree, although men would suffer from being coniving sl*ts too, if they had children from ONS or prior relationships and didnt disclose it.




MrsKy said:


> Anonim, is there something about this issue that hits close to home?
> 
> I'm only asking because I know there is another long thread along the same lines...


No, although the idea for the poll did come from that thread.




EleGirl said:


> I'm not 10% *you mean 100% right?*wild about mandatory DNA. But do think that any man should have the rigtht to run a paternity test on a child born to his wife.
> *I also think a wife is entitled to know what other children her H has.*
> 
> The best time to do this is at birth as the test can be done using umbilical cord blood.
> ...


I disagree on the time limit because the H might trust his wife, like a wife would want him to, even when she knows/suspects the child isnt his. 

The father might bond with the child. He might have chose not to if he had known it wasnt his. The responsibility if the father chooses to walk, falls 100% on the mother for failing to inform him the child might not be his.




that_girl said:


> So, I will make a home for my husband...*snip*


If its mandatory, neither you nor your H will have reason to have bad feelings to each other over the testing. A couple hundred dollars compared to the cost of giving birth to a child in the hospital is nothing. pennies on the dollar.




MrsKy said:


> *listens to dead horse still being beaten*


You almost choked me! LOL

What does a dead horse being beaten sound like anyway?




that_girl said:


> I'm kinda over it. Some men aren't big suspicious guys who need to know their wife isn't a ho.


ALL guys want to know their wife isnt a ho.
All women want to know their husband isnt either.




that_girl said:


> Right? geebus. If you think your wife is a cheater, get a test.


If you go to doc cool you can see lots of wives whose husbands dont know their wife is a cheater.They are very accomplished cheaters and deceivers. What do you suggest those husbands do, not knowing that their wives are doing that?

Or will your voice be silent on this?




costa200 said:


> I don't, i voted for hidden test. Because that's what i would have done if required. I'm a biology major and can make certain genetic predictions that can rule me out as a father. This if my daughter did not have some very particular genetic traits that run in my family.
> 
> BTW, feel free to drop by on every male inhabited forum out there and redo this poll. See if the results are that different.


Funny you say this actually because I asked several guys at work environment if they were in favor of a mandatory paternity test.

the majority said yes, with equal numbers being unsure and saying no.

One of the ones saying no stated he would want the opportunity to catch the cheating partner on his own terms instead of the Dr outing him as knowing the child wasnt his.

One of the ones saying yes said he had no other children anywhere so he had nothing to hide.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> However I think that there should be a time limit. A man has 6-12 months to get this done. After that, if he does not have the test done he's accepting that the child is his legal child whether it's his bio child or not. The reason I say this is that children bond to their father. It's not in the child's best interest to have their father (the one who raised them) abandom them some years later.


I get your point but I would feel bad for guys who find out theirs wives were messing around years later. Love is blind so many people have no clue they are being played until it get's to bad to not see it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

that_girl said:


> So, I will make a home for my husband...cook for him, do his laundry, work and pay 1/2 the bills, make his lunches for work, support him in his dreams, raise the children, and he has the nerve to ask for a paternity test.
> 
> Wow.


It doesn't sound like you are the type he would be suspicious of and it doesn't sound like he's suspicious in nature so I don't think this would affect you. It's merely a way to validate responsibility. And many men and women are suspicious because they should be

This is a way to prevent fraud. I think many men would never think twice about it. Especially if there were not red flags.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Right? geebus. If you think your wife is a cheater, get a test. Most the men here HAVE MARITAL ISSUES with a wife that is a cheater. So, there's you "poll".


Here's what I would like. Get result at birth from cord and mother and store it. Nothing else. Done.

At some later time the father can be tested if he wants to without the child having to know. This inherently means the mother can not know as well because she would tell the child.

Reason: I was very trusting and had no reason not to be. Seven years down the road and two affairs later we divorced. Well she was a cheater so it's possible they were not mine (except they looked just like me). The thing is you have no ability to know that feeling just like I don't know what an abortion feels like. It's not possible to occur so it's easy for you to throw judgement darts. 

Love is blind so most people don't see it at first. But to ask your child to give you dna for testing or to ask the mother knowing that she will tell the child. Those options are just not good.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

90% would do this??? I find that to be quite a sad statement about marriage.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> 90% would do this??? I find that to be quite a sad statement about marriage.


It has nothing to do with marriage. It has everything to do with our evolutionary need to invest in out own bloodline. Women should understand this about as well as I understand the emotional state of having an abortion or miscarriage. No they are not the same things but yes they are something that I as a man can only try to empathisse with just as they can only try to empathisse with this issue.

And I think some women truly do get it so I'm impressed with them. Others are extraordinarily offended and I don't blame them for feeling that way. I just think it's based on see this as loss of control or power whether they know it or not.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Thundarr said:


> It has nothing to do with marriage. .


Trust and fidelity has nothing to do with marriage. :scratchhead:

I guess we are simply in it as sperm donors and our wives are all likely tramps.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Trust and fidelity has nothing to do with marriage. :scratchhead:
> 
> I guess we are simply in it as sperm donors and our wives are all likely tramps.


How about you take a full quote if you'd like to make a point. Then I'll defend what was said. That's a good example of deception.

EDIT: You know what never mind. I do it too but maybe I'll rethink that.

To answer your point. No we are not sperm donors only. I have no idea how you would take what I said and come up with that.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Thundarr said:


> It has nothing to do with marriage. *It has everything to do with our evolutionary need to invest in out own bloodline* Women should understand this about as well as I understand the emotional state of having an abortion or miscarriage. No they are not the same things but yes they are something that I as a man can only try to empathisse with just as they can only try to empathisse with this issue.
> 
> And I think some women truly do get it so I'm impressed with them. Others are extraordinarily offended and I don't blame them for feeling that way. I just think it's based on see this as loss of control or power whether they know it or not.


Sperm donor. 

I am truly sorry you married a cheater and had to question the parentage of your children. Marriage how ever goes beyond siring children. It is about trust, commitment and honoring your spouse. A paternity test never crossed my mind at the time we were birthing kids. And for me to even consider one, I would have had to have very strong suspicions to require one. I did not. My trust in my wife is just as important that she understand my trust in her and visa versa. I just find it sad that 90% of the respondents support this. Even if it's "just to make sure" it means that trust is not complete between husband and wife. And if one of the most wonderful events in a couple's life is questioned by 90% then everything else must be in question too. IMO, that is not a healthy foundation for a marriage.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Sperm donor.
> 
> I am truly sorry you married a cheater and had to question the parentage of your children. Marriage how ever goes beyond siring children. It is about trust, commitment and honoring your spouse. A paternity test never crossed my mind at the time we were birthing kids. And for me to even consider one, I would have had to have very strong suspicions to require one. I did not. My trust in my wife is just as important that she understand my trust in her and visa versa. I just find it sad that 90% of the respondents support this. Even if it's "just to make sure" it means that trust is not complete between husband and wife. And if one of the most wonderful events in a couple's life is questioned by 90% then everything else must be in question too. IMO, that is not a healthy foundation for a marriage.


Thank you. I am sorry I was not a better judge of character also. That was a long time ago and I'm married now going on 17 years to a great woman so there's the silver lining. I learned what to watch for.

To be honest I pretty much agree with every single thing you just said. I'm a pro marriage guy and I think it should be wonderful and if it's not then you work to make it that way. 
The issue is that I was very trusting with my first wife and years later realized my trust was misplaced so I know it happens to others as well. Fortunately my kids look and act like my side of the family but it was really sad to have to even think about that because I knew my wife was a cheater. I'm not sure what I would have done anyway. Probably despise her and love them and say nothing.

My opinion that a man should be able to test his paternity anonymously in no way means I don't think marriage or trust is sacred. I say you trust until there is a reason not to. I was given a reason not to with my first wife. Others are given reasons not to. If you have a good partner then you'll never have to worry about it.

Even with my emotional baggage from my first marriage, I truly trust my (second) wife now. She has never given me any reason not to trust her. One difference is that I know I put the blinders on so if red flags were then I would notice them. I don't think blind trust is healthy. There is no accountability is that.


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## thegatewalker (Apr 29, 2012)

[ QUOTE=Thundarr;1004643]
a man should be able to test his paternity anonymously[/QUOTE]
No I think it should stay the same and be the couples choice
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

thegatewalker said:


> No I think it should stay the same and be the couples choice


I would be cool with that if the mother and father had equal knowledge. As it is the mother knows 100% that her child is actually her child. So why would she have any say in the father's choice to know the same thing for himself. It has nothing to do with determining if she is the mother or not. It only has to do with him knowing if he is the father. That sounds like his choice to learn for himself.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Maybe I am being too philosophical, but could the ease of these tests and eventual acceptance of them have similar breakthroughs for men that the birth control pill had for women 50 years ago?

- Achieving equity by taking control of their reproductive lives
- A means to eliminate financial despair
- More security

I also seem to remember that there was a pretty big stigma against the pill when it was introduced. 

Odd parallels.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> It has nothing to do with marriage. It has everything to do with our evolutionary need to invest in out own bloodline. Women should understand this about as well as I understand the emotional state of having an abortion or miscarriage. No they are not the same things but yes they are something that I as a man can only try to empathisse with just as they can only try to empathisse with this issue.
> 
> And I think some women truly do get it so I'm impressed with them. Others are extraordinarily offended and I don't blame them for feeling that way. I just think it's based on see this as loss of control or power whether they know it or not.


I agree. certain people seem to not understand this and take it for granted. Every child a woman has is 100% guaranteed to be hers. She doesnt _have _to trust to know this. 

I appreciate all the women that have commented, in this thread and the other, that _get it_ and realize that men do not have this surety, even if they dont agree with paternity testing.

Some others on the other hand I think would see mandatoy pat. testing as a loss of power. Even though that power can only be used for bad.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

So what happens to the couples where the both know the man didn't help with the reproductive material. Like couples with fertilization problems (man shoots blanks, need donar sperm)?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> So what happens to the couples where the both know the man didn't help with the reproductive material. Like couples with fertilization problems (man shoots blanks, need donar sperm)?


I say how ever they decide to. It's not my place to tell them how to handle their relationship. If he's sterile for example and they both decide for her to go out and get pregnant then it's not my business.

EDIT: oh no. I spoke too quickly. She would have to trust that he would still provide even if paternity did not say he's the father. So yea I hope they would have trust or an agreement. in vitro fertilization or an official doner would be better just for that reason.

But in the end it still would be their choice to make.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

If you were to change the assumption of paternity until a father runs a DNA test to prove otherwise, and instead make the assumption that DNA will dictate who the father is unless he signs an optional "I agree to be the dad, DNA or not" waiver, all the problems go away.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> So what happens to the couples where the both know the man didn't help with the reproductive material. Like couples with fertilization problems (man shoots blanks, need donar sperm)?


both parent know who the father is in that case. they still raise the child as theirs.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

anonim said:


> both parent know who the father is in that case. they still raise the child as theirs.


But aren't donar's supposed to be anonymous? I can't imagine that a whole lot of men donating sperm would want it to be known that they could be tracked down, for whatever reasons.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> But aren't donar's supposed to be anonymous? I can't imagine that a whole lot of men donating sperm would want it to be known that they could be tracked down, for whatever reasons.


Well maybe in that case both parents know the biological father is named "anonymous sperm doner from xxx sperm bank".


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> Well maybe in that case both parents know the biological father is named "anonymous sperm doner from xxx sperm bank".


Or they could just opt out of the whole thing. Since they probably already know the husband isn't the biological father. What purpose would a DNA test be for those cases and for cases similar to them?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Or they could just opt out of the whole thing. Since they probably already know the husband isn't the biological father. What purpose would a DNA test be for those cases and for cases similar to them?


It think it would be useful for medical purposes. Really the DNA test would not be so useful as the father's identify. I would hate to not have answers about family history for things like heart disease, etc.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

If she has given you a reason to think the baby is not yours then i would say go for it. You have a right to know if you are raising your biological child or not..

Just don't sign the birth certificate. if you do then you will be claiming the child is yours regardless of paternity 

It my husband would have told me he wanted a Pat. test on our son, i would have had no issue with it (Granted i would have been pissed off) but i had nothing to hide and the child is indeed his.


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

ladybird said:


> If she has given you a reason to think the baby is not yours then i would say go for it. You have a right to know if you are raising your biological child or not..
> 
> Just don't sign the birth certificate. if you do then you will be claiming the child is yours regardless of paternity
> 
> It my husband would have told me he wanted a Pat. test on our son, i would have had no issue with it (Granted i would have been pissed off) but i had nothing to hide and the child is indeed his.


I think that your response would be the norm for a faithful woman that was asked for a test by her man FWIW


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## anonim (Apr 24, 2012)

Amplexor said:


> Sperm donor.
> 
> I am truly sorry you married a cheater and had to question the parentage of your children. Marriage how ever goes beyond siring children. It is about trust, commitment and honoring your spouse. A paternity test never crossed my mind at the time we were birthing kids. And for me to even consider one, I would have had to have very strong suspicions to require one. I did not. My trust in my wife is just as important that she understand my trust in her and visa versa. I just find it sad that 90% of the respondents support this. Even if it's "just to make sure" it means that trust is not complete between husband and wife. And if one of the most wonderful events in a couple's life is questioned by 90% then everything else must be in question too. IMO, that is not a healthy foundation for a marriage.


Those values run both ways though.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

anonim said:


> I think that your response would be the norm for a faithful woman that was asked for a test by her man FWIW


My cousin did a Pat. test on his first. His wife had 3 affairs with 3 different guys right around the time she got pregnant. The baby did turn out to be my cousins. She didn't stop her affairs after he found out, she kept right on cheating. She got pregnant a second time, baby was his again (no test rew, he looked like him) Then she got pregnant again and this time the baby was not his. my cousin left her, shortly after the divorse was final she married the guy who got her pregnant. Her and her new hubby have been married only 6 months, and he has already cheated on her! HA serves her right.

To me if my h would have asked for a test, it would have been water under the bridge.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

ladybird said:


> My cousin did a Pat. test on his first. His wife had 3 affairs with 3 different guys right around the time she got pregnant. The baby did turn out to be my cousins. She didn't stop her affairs after he found out, she kept right on cheating. She got pregnant a second time, baby was his again (no test rew, he looked like him) Then she got pregnant again and this time the baby was not his. my cousin left her, shortly after the divorse was final she married the guy who got her pregnant. Her and her new hubby have been married only 6 months, and he has already cheated on her! HA serves her right.
> 
> To me if my h would have asked for a test, it would have been water under the bridge.


Yes every cheater should know how it feels to be betrayed by someone they truly love. Many would not cheat again if they had more empathy for what it feels like to be betrayed.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> Yes every cheater should know how it feels to be betrayed by someone they truly love. Many would not cheat again if they had more empathy for what it feels like to be betrayed.


Now she knows what it feels like to be cheated on. She put of her facebook page "what goes around comes around!" I find humor in her finally being cheated on.


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## DrunkenH (Jul 29, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Yes every cheater should know how it feels to be betrayed by someone they truly love. Many would not cheat again if they had more empathy for what it feels like to be betrayed.


I'd be willing to bet that anyone who has been in three or more relationships in their lives has been cheated on at one point or another, whether they know it or not.

Back to the OP. Yes, I would want a DNA test and yes I think they should be mandatory. Hell, I had to take a blood test to get married, so I really don't see the big deal.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> Sperm donor.
> 
> I am truly sorry you married a cheater and had to question the parentage of your children. Marriage how ever goes beyond siring children. It is about trust, commitment and honoring your spouse. A paternity test never crossed my mind at the time we were birthing kids. And for me to even consider one, I would have had to have very strong suspicions to require one. I did not. My trust in my wife is just as important that she understand my trust in her and visa versa. I just find it sad that 90% of the respondents support this. Even if it's "just to make sure" it means that trust is not complete between husband and wife. And if one of the most wonderful events in a couple's life is questioned by 90% then everything else must be in question too. IMO, that is not a healthy foundation for a marriage.


"Complete trust" will never be an option for me with anyone.
Life has taught me it's a fools game and considering the 60-70% infidelity rate I have good reason for it.

I "completely" trust no one & my life is better because of it.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

anonim said:


> Those values run both ways though.


Stats say they don't though and that's why a pat test is really a good idea.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

tacoma said:


> "Complete trust" will never be an option for me with anyone.
> Life has taught me it's a fools game and considering the 60-70% infidelity rate I have good reason for it.
> 
> I "completely" trust no one & my life is better because of it.


Complete trust assumes that your partner is not fallible. Let those red flags pop up and see how that complete trust holds up.


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