# can it be done?



## struggling55

It's almost a year now since I found that my husband of more than 38 years had been using prostitutes for years - first massage with happy endings and then full sex. He did this while travelling as well as in our home city - going in the day, when I was out of town and sometimes when he knew I would be working late. I can't describe what this has done to me. We're still together - going to counselling as individuals, and a a couple. After so long there is a lot to lose if we can't get through this. He seems very committed to staying together - and after two visits in the first month after I found out (I discovered this some time later) says he isn't seeing prostitutes any more. He lied to me so often, I don't know what I can believe. To make matters worse, he lost his job and is not happy about that. He's looking for work, but not talking to me about it. I think that's because he's looking to work in Asia - where he started with the prostitutes (yes, I still look at his emails when I get the opportunity). He really liked Asian women. He didn't tell me this - I found the messages on a forum he was involved in. 

The problem is my enormous unhappiness, and disgust with what he did. I've tried everything I can think of to help myself deal with this (focusing on me, losing weight, buying nice clothes - I've just done a meditation course, and am enrolled in a mindfulness course), but there are times when I don't know whether I can do it. I know what I need to do - focus on going forward, not think about the past - but sometimes it overwhelms me. I still cry often. My default is unhappy. 

The subject line on this message says it all - can it be done? Can a marriage come back from something like this? If you've succeeded, please tell me what helped you.


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## SpunkySpunky

First, I want to say I'm sorry for what you're going through and commend how strong you are.

Second, I kind of know what you are going through, sort of. Your situation is a lot more extreme than mine. My husband left me at 8 months pregnant and after 6 months of separation started having casual sex with someone else. This_ really_ hurt me.

We are now attempting R and have been for almost 8 months.

And there were times I didn't know if I could do it.

It's the trust mostly.

When he came clean with everything I threw up. I was disgusted that he would leave his family for stupid things like partying and eventually casual sex.

Even if it only happened a few times, mostly drunk, it still grated on me like nails on a chalkboard.

I was unhappy, and it was really hard. I cried a lot, and still do sometimes, I won't lie.

The only thing that really keeps me in is the progress we both have made in our marriage and toward each other and that gives me hope.


It's still an uphill battle.




I wouldn't approve of him working in Asia where this stuff began. He shouldn't even think about it if he is committed to working things out with you.

And he should be completely transparent with you, emails, phone, everything.

Counseling is great and it can help with dealing with your feelings at this time, definitely keep going to individual counseling, no matter what.


Sometimes things can't be fixed and trust just can't be earned back no matter how much you want it to be. If your default is unhappy...maybe it would be best to move forward. You seem really awesome and totally committed...but is he?

Can you completely forgive and move forward and not let the past( ie things he has done) effect you or your relationship towards one another? 

My opinion...it could be done, all things are possible ( I'm a romantic) But at what cost?

Are you willing to be unhappy all of the time? Always wonder whether he is telling the truth or not? What if he does go work in Asia? Will you always wonder if he is with a prostitute?

Those worries will probably always be there in the back of your mind and I think it will always hurt thinking about it, no matter how long you remain together.

I don't know if I could live with someone who has cheated on me so much and lied so much...but that's me.

You have a pretty steep hill to climb...and only you know if it is worth it.


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## cdbaker

So sorry to hear what you are going through.

A few initial thoughts...

First, I'd say there is 98% certainty that he has developed an addiction with this behavior. You have to remember that anything involving sex typically involves an intense endorphin high that is very difficult to walk away from. Whether it is porn, or prostitutes, it becomes easy and almost habitual. In the worst moments, we (yes I'm a recovering porn addict) we will swear it all off and the answers will seem clear as day, with all the confidence in the world, meaning every word and you couldn't dissuade us with all the money in the world. Then a few days later, the setting is "right" (maybe we find ourselves alone, a few hours to spare, a perfect "excuse" like a work function being canceled, we're out of town, etc.) and we remember how incredibly easy it would be to indulge... just this once... no one could ever find out...

And before we know it, we're nursing a hidden addiction again, only being more careful about it this time perhaps. Fully fooled into believing that it's not a problem or a big deal.

He needs to not only be in individual therapy, but he needs to find himself a sexual addiction recovery and accountability group. He needs accountability software installed on every device he owns. He needs a personal accountability partner to check on him and be available for calls at nearly any time, and no that person CANNOT be you. And recovery wont' be quick either, it'll take years and might not ever really end. A lot of people discount it, but in many ways sexual addiction is far more difficult to "treat/be rid of" than drug addiction. With Drugs, the high's are similar, but the side effects are obvious. You can be "caught" by being found high, losing your job/friends/family to it, spending obscene amounts of money on drugs, outward physical signs of drug use, etc. It doesn't take long to catch a drug user, and because drug use is far more difficult to conceal. With sex addiction, the "high" can be just as strong/enjoyable/alluring, but there is very little outward obvious signs of addiction, minimal mood changes, you typically don't lose your job/friends/family to it except in extreme cases, and the financial cost is relatively minor by comparison.

NEXT, his job loss. Remember that for a man, a job can easily be his identity. A man's ability to provide for his family is absolutely paramount to his need to feel like a man. We're raised from birth to believe that a man is not a man if he can't provide for his family, be confident in himself and his abilities, ensure that he family has nothing to worry about financially, etc. So losing a job can be devastating for us, but since most of us are also taught to hide our feelings and definitely any sign of fear, insecurity, weakness, etc., we will NOT want to talk about it. Often I think the most you will hear from men in that situation is, "Don't worry about it." or "I'm taking care of it, it'll be fine." and the like. Often times the man is doing exactly that, trying his best to find that new job and restore his weakened self confidence. The trouble is, sometimes we can be so broken by the loss that we struggle to find the strength to do what it takes to pick ourselves up and do what needs done to find that new job, and will just lie about it in the meantime to conceal the weakness.

So my suggestion would be to keep an eye on him and make sure he is doing what he needs to be doing, but unless he is really truly not doing anything and obviously lying about it, don't push him too hard or show any obvious signs of disappointment in him. He needs to feel that you still respect him or else he'll be really really irritable and it might make it harder for him to do the things he needs to do to get back on his feet. This is when he needs your support.

As for him searching for overseas jobs... that's a tough one. I'm guessing that his last job produced a ton of great business contacts over there and he probably has a lot of good prospects there because of his past work there and colleagues who still work out there or in that business. So I'm guessing his BEST prospects involve that kind of travel. With that said, because of his past, I'd say it is extremely likely that he would relapse and "crash" while there with the opportunity to incredibly close and easy to conceal. I'd say that you need to talk with the marriage counselor and have that talk with him during a session. I think it needs to be presented as you being concerned not with his commitment to staying loyal/pure to you, but with the temptation he would face and just as importantly (make sure to build this up) your desire to not have him so far away from you as much. Express that you love him and want him home with you more often, that you feel lonely and/or unsafe with him not around (that unsafe part really tugs at us guys). Of course you have to realize that him pursuing a job that does not involve that kind of travel will likely reduce in a lower income as well, and you have to be MORE than ok with that, even encouraging him that the reduced income is worth it if you can have him around more often.

Seriously, you CANNOT ask him to give up more lucrative job opportunities overseas and also show ANY kind of disappointment or disrespect when he accepts a job that pays a lot less. It's very likely that you won't be able to have it both ways.

As for everything else you are doing, keep it up! Both for yourself, and as an ever present reminder for your husband of how lucky he is!


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## now_awake

Hi,
I'm struggling too with my H's addiction. I was 'lucky' in that I caught him before his addiction escalated to prostitutes (though he would set up meetings and back out....we both know now that he wouldn't have been able to stop himself forever).

Today is the first day that divorce isn't the first thing on my mind. It's been over 8 months since DDay.

How can it be done? By his hard work. Is your H in a 12 step program? He can't do this on his own. I'm sure he tried for years and failed. Only by the help of others and by the grace of God (a difficult one for him as he identified as Atheist for years) can he begin to heal. 

It also takes work on your side. I know that sucks. I have days where I wonder why in the world I have to work when I'm the betrayed. But I see now how I stayed in an unhealthy relationship for years. There had to be reasons why I did that. Have you been in IC? Have you looked into an S-ANON group? 

In the end, even if he does all of the work, you might decide that the damage is too much. 

My H has been changing little by little since he finally has some sobriety. He actually listens to me now. He seems interested in my feelings. It's so new that it's almost shocking. Over the years, I got used to being resented and ignored. Last night we had a wonderful talk and I felt close to him. It feels strange to let myself feel close to him, but it does feel better than constantly being on my guard and thinking about breaking apart our family.

And recovery does take a lot of time, as it's been mentioned. I keep getting in these modes of thinking that I have to change and be better as quickly as I can, but it does take time on both sides. Intimacy takes time to build and we have to remind ourselves that constantly or we can easily fall into panic mode. I know it's an uncomfortable place to be, but unless you're ready to throw in the towel now, you have to be prepared for the hard work.

If he wasn't willing to do the hard work he is doing now, I would be gone. There is no marriage without recovery for us. I will not stay with an active addict. It's not healthy for anyone, especially my children.


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## scientia

cdbaker said:


> First, I'd say there is 98% certainty that he has developed an addiction with this behavior.


There is so much mythology on the internet and among religious groups about sexual addiction that there is a 99% chance that anything you hear on the topic is incorrect. I'm kind of wondering what exactly you based this opinion on.



> You have to remember that anything involving sex typically involves an intense endorphin high that is very difficult to walk away from.


I've seen it claimed that some people have food addiction. The great majority of people who fall into this category simply have an obese eating schedule. This involves skipping breakfast and then eating more late in the day with eating continuing until going to sleep. With most of these people, eating breakfast, snacking, and then not eating before bedtime fixes the problem and they lose weight. There is probably a very small number of people who truly never feel satisfied and eat too much even if they don't skip breakfast but this is quite rare.

Is there such a thing as sexual addiction? There could be but like food addiction, this category is overly broad. Basically, a lot of people feel embarrassed about sex so anything that makes them uncomfortable is claimed to be an addiction. Okay, let's try applying that standard to other things.

When I was in grade school, sometimes they served spinach at lunch. A few kids would put vinegar on it and eat it. I never ate it. Those kids must have had a spinach addiction. It starts out innocently with parsley and kale but before you know it, you've got that unshakable craving for spinach. Right?

You've probably seen Sesame Street.
People watch action movies because they like action movies.
People watch comedy movies because they like comedy movies.
People watch romance movies because they like romance movies.
People watch porn movies because they have an addiction.

Which one of these things is not like the others?



> Whether it is porn, or prostitutes, it becomes easy and almost habitual.


You can't mix these two: habits are nothing like addictions. Habits are repetitive behavior. Addictions are strongly reinforced behavior.



> In the worst moments, we (yes I'm a recovering porn addict) we will swear it all off and the answers will seem clear as day, with all the confidence in the world, meaning every word and you couldn't dissuade us with all the money in the world. Then a few days later, the setting is "right" (maybe we find ourselves alone, a few hours to spare, a perfect "excuse" like a work function being canceled, we're out of town, etc.) and we remember how incredibly easy it would be to indulge... just this once... no one could ever find out...


The typical thing that would happen in this situation is that you would go buy a Penthouse magazine or rent an adult movie and masturbate. And, this would not tend to cause any real problem. So, what are you saying would happen?



> And before we know it, we're nursing a hidden addiction again, only being more careful about it this time perhaps. Fully fooled into believing that it's not a problem or a big deal.


Okay, if you are an alcoholic then it is not hard get your hands on alcohol. During the day, I could walk from my house about five blocks to a liquor store. And, if it's not Sunday, I could get my hands on alcohol 24 hours a day at the local Walmart. For an alcoholic, the temptation is ever present. Understand the difference here; the alcohol itself is the problem for an alcoholic and it is readily available in whatever proof you want. However, in most places, there are not prostitutes hanging out on every corner or women in bars waiting to jump into bed with you. Magazines, pictures, and videos are readily available but these don't tend to be a problem. So, I'd like to know where the real problem comes in. Do you specifically seek prostitutes? Do you specifically try to find women online while in a relationship? Do you pay to chat or watch performances at webcam sites? Do you turn down sex with a partner to have sex with someone else? Would you turn down a preferred sexual activity with a partner to have non-preferred sex with someone else? Does sex with a partner lose its intensity even if they do what you like? Does sex with a stranger rekindle that intensity? When you see strange women do you find yourself immediately thinking about sex regardless of age, body type, etc? Do you find yourself unable to turn down sex even from men or even from women you wouldn't typically be attracted to?



> He needs to not only be in individual therapy, but he needs to find himself a sexual addiction recovery and accountability group.


If you are in a genuine group, then you've already dealt with questions like I just asked. If you are in a fake group then they ask you other things that are mostly related to frequency, hiding, morality and feelings of embarrassment or shame.



> With sex addiction, the "high" can be just as strong/enjoyable/alluring, but there is very little outward obvious signs of addiction, minimal mood changes, you typically don't lose your job/friends/family to it except in extreme cases, and the financial cost is relatively minor by comparison.


You've described what isn't a problem. You could very well have an addiction but it wouldn't be defined by non-issues. Can you describe something that shows a clearly maladaptive behavior?


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## sammy3

Hi , Im sorry you are here. I too am struggling w the idea of returning to a cheating husband. I will be married 30 yrs. Jan, together 32. 

There is a lot of history and a lot of of everything to untangle. Not only that, so many crazy thoughts and worries...there's the growing old, getting sick, wondering would a new man want to invest in another so late, with maybe 20 yrs before health starts to act up? Or to worry, be alone... or return to the marriage and be alone in it? Because, there's some thing different when a spouse is willing to throw away almost a life-time marriage without regards to their partner. 

I too wonder everyday, Can it done? I dunno.

My MC explained death may be easier, because there is no second guessing.((speaking natural cause)) 

~sammy


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## struggling55

SpunkySpunky said:


> First, I want to say I'm sorry for what you're going through and commend how strong you are.
> 
> _I have to say that I don't feel strong. Mostly I feel torn - I hate what he did, and hate the fact that I can't trust him. Too many lies. But my life, and many of the things that I enjoy in life are tied up with him. It's hard._
> 
> 
> 
> I was unhappy, and it was really hard. I cried a lot, and still do sometimes, I won't lie.
> 
> _Me too. _
> 
> The only thing that really keeps me in is the progress we both have made in our marriage and toward each other and that gives me hope.
> 
> _We are making some progress too - but yes, an uphill battle. He is not open emotionally, and seldom tells me how he feels, seldom acknowledges my feelings. Our MC tells me that I should talk to him about what makes me unhappy - I haven't told anyone else - but often talking to him makes me more unhappy because his reactions are hurtful to me. _
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't approve of him working in Asia where this stuff began. He shouldn't even think about it if he is committed to working things out with you.
> 
> _I told him this worries me - he said he has no intention of working there for long periods. But some of what he does means that there will be short periods. _
> 
> 
> Sometimes things can't be fixed and trust just can't be earned back no matter how much you want it to be. If your default is unhappy...maybe it would be best to move forward. You seem really awesome and totally committed...but is he?
> 
> _To be honest, I think he's more committed to staying in the marriage than I am. I'm the one who has doubts. Or at least, that's how it appears._
> 
> Can you completely forgive and move forward and not let the past( ie things he has done) effect you or your relationship towards one another?
> 
> _I don't know. I'm trying to focus on the present, not to dwell in the past. I have various apps designed to foster positive thinking and mindfulness - I read what they say, and can see that if I can do this it may work. But doing it consistently is still hard. _


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## struggling55

How can it be done? By his hard work. Is your H in a 12 step program? _

Don't know of any where we live - and religion doesn't work for either of us. 
_
It also takes work on your side. I know that sucks. I have days where I wonder why in the world I have to work when I'm the betrayed. 
_oh yes, I feel that regularly. Go to IC now - something I never thought I'd do. And am beginning to see how his problems have changed me from the person I once was. _


My H has been changing little by little since he finally has some sobriety. He actually listens to me now. He seems interested in my feelings. It's so new that it's almost shocking. Over the years, I got used to being resented and ignored. Last night we had a wonderful talk and I felt close to him. It feels strange to let myself feel close to him, but it does feel better than constantly being on my guard and thinking about breaking apart our family.

_I'm glad to hear things are changing for you. I find it hard to let myself feel close to him at the moment - safer to close down. But I know this won't work, so I make the effort - often to be misunderstood, or have responses that don't help._


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## now_awake

Oh, the closeness really doesn't last; it seems to go back and forth all the time. I'm back to detached and on my guard. He really is changing though, which is interesting to witness. Even if he changes, I have no idea if we're even 'right' for each other any more. Like you said, this stuff changes you. I don't think I can just turn off my guard with him just like that. 

But, we'll see I suppose. Part of me really wishes it were possible because we do raise our kids well together.


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## cdbaker

The working in Asia thing still concerns me. Whether it is a short time or a long time really doesn't make any difference at all either, so I'm not sure why he would present that argument. It's not like engaging with a prostitute requires a long term commitment after all. For anyone with that kind of history, I have a very hard time believing that anyone, even someone who loves you very much, has no desire to hurt you whatsoever, and is committed to the marriage, would be able to avoid giving in to that temptation when he knows that there is basically no way he could possibly be caught.

Again I just imagine a cocaine addict going away for a few days where a version of cocaine is available plentifully, cheap, and produces absolutely no side effects of any kind. Thousands of miles from accountability, and with no chance that anyone would find out, I just can't believe that the person wouldn't go ahead and give in.


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## now_awake

Yes, going to work in Asia would be a deal breaker for me, even with a sober spouse in 12 steps.


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## sammy3

now_awake said:


> Oh, the closeness really doesn't last; it seems to go back and forth all the time. He really is changing though, which is interesting to witness. Even if he changes, I have no idea if we're even 'right' for each other any more.


Couldnt have said this any better, and what makes it sad, mine had to use his marriage to change. 

~sammy


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## sammy3

Double post


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## sammy3

cdbaker said:


> Again I just imagine a cocaine addict going away for a few days where a version of cocaine is available plentifully, cheap, and produces absolutely no side effects of any kind. Thousands of miles from accountability, and with no chance that anyone would find out, I just can't believe that the person wouldn't go ahead and give in.


Try living in the world of pilots and flight attendants!!!! I drop my husband off weekly in the land of infidelity, in the land of hotels, in exotic locations... how do you ever get ok with that again??? 

~sammy


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## now_awake

sammy3 said:


> Couldnt have said this any better, and what makes it sad, mine had to use his marriage to change.
> 
> ~sammy


Yep, it's sad that it took our pain for them to consider change.


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## struggling55

now_awake said:


> Yes, going to work in Asia would be a deal breaker for me, even with a sober spouse in 12 steps.


It isn't that simple. I travel for work as well. The work he has left to him involves travel in Asia. He has offered to give this up, but I'm pretty sure that if I require him to do this it will make matters worse - he will resent it. It does worry me though. I've just come back from a few days with him in Asia - he is staying on to do a two day job, then because of flight times, needs to stay until the evening of the next day. Yes it worries me. He wanted the time there together to be a new start for us - that we would talk and move forward. We did some fun things. But I couldn't stay happy, couldn't keep thoughts of prostitutes out of my head. I told him how I was feeling - MC says I should do this, he's asked me to do it, but I'm not really sure that it helps me - I get so upset, and communicating is hard. I did suggest an accountability partner, and he has said he'll talk to his counsellor about this. He's really putting in a big effort - and is answering uncomfortable questions. I feel so sad that I'm not sure whether I can keep doing this - knowing what he's done, knowing that he still feels the temptation (I asked - and asked what he wants - 'to be with someone else for a while'). He knows that if he does it again it's the end, he tells me that he can deal with it, that the thought of it being the end of our marriage is a big incentive not to do it. I want to believe it. He says he's very clear that he wants our marriage. But I'm finding it so hard.


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## U.E. McGill

Here's the thing. R can always be done. 

But what no one is saying, are you ready to go through years of therapy to only have him get past his demons and have him decide he doesn't want to be married? 

How many people are guilty of the fallacy of sunk cost? "Well I've got so much time with him, at this point, it would be a waste to D"

If your willing to accept there's no gaurenteed future or that your not trying to save the marriage cause of habit, then go for it. Put yourself first, and really ask "am I fulfilling my life?" If your not happy with yourself, how can you be happy with him?


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## struggling55

U.E. McGill said:


> Here's the thing. R can always be done.
> 
> But what no one is saying, are you ready to go through years of therapy to only have him get past his demons and have him decide he doesn't want to be married.
> 
> 
> Same could be said from the other perspective. What if we go through years of therapy only for me to decide I can't do it? Seems like the bigger risk at the moment. Maybe I'm deluding myself, but I don't think I am.
> 
> And the cost of D is to a whole lifestyle - loss of the shared history, much (most?) good, shared pursuits, interests..... No guarantee that there will be another partner (for a woman approaching 60 it would be hard) or a life that would offer more. No guarantees with anything I guess.
> 
> Sounds like I'm justifying staying here - some days I do feel ok - or at least more positive about it. Interesting that I feel ok today, when he's not here. I wonder what that means?


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## U.E. McGill

Either way. Who's to say right? Personally if it were a loved one of mine, I'd tell you to move on. Take the time to morn, then go find someone great!


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