# Wife got upset over gift to my boys -



## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

I have three sons. I bought each of them a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I told them to read it and it would help them to navigate life hopefully staying somewhere between being a doormat & a [email protected]

They are 21, 18 & 13.

I had already read it & started making changes in my own life.

My wife started telling me "I can't believe you gave them that".

I told her that hopefully they won't put up with some of the things I did as a "nice guy". 

Of the three, my 13 year old seems to have read the most & is putting into place changes. Sure wish I would have known this stuff when I was his age.

So, parents, at what age should the Athol Kay books be handed out??


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

There's a lot of good advice in that book, so once they start dating is a good time to let them read it, IMO.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It's going to depend on the maturity level of your kids. IMO, I don't think Athol is appropriate for a 13 year old for sure. NMMNG is probably a better choice, but it again depends on their maturity level.

specifically, why was your wife upset about it? It's never been my opinion that NMMNG was a "sex advice" book in the same way that MMSLP is.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> It's going to depend on the maturity level of your kids. IMO, I don't think Athol is appropriate for a 13 year old for sure. NMMNG is probably a better choice, but it again depends on their maturity level.
> 
> specifically, why was your wife upset about it? It's never been my opinion that NMMNG was a "sex advice" book in the same way that MMSLP is.


I think the biggest reason she didn't like it was she doesn't like the changes I made after I read the book. I'm not disrespectful, but I started enforcing my boundaries. 

I have to laugh as there have been conversations where my 13 year old has done the same to me when we are discussing a topic. He's an old man in a teen's body. He's not disrespectful, but he holds his own.

I also have been taking him to the gym. He doesn't lift hard, but he gets out & moves. He's 30 #'s down. I told him to keep it up so he doesn't ever look like his old man.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I think the biggest reason she didn't like it was she doesn't like the changes I made after I read the book. I'm not disrespectful, but I started enforcing my boundaries.


Sucks to say it, but this behavior from your wife, plus the fact she is a major female role model for your boys, is precisely the reason this book is a good idea for your boys. And yes that includes the 13 year-old.

Some read the title and have a knee-jerk reaction to what they think the book will say. But, since your wife is reacting to your behavior changes (which basically amount to standing up for yourself), I don't think that is the case. Is your wife aware Dr. Glover says those who don't support your changes are poor partners and should not stop you from improving yourself?


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Strange topic for sex in marriage. Having said that I wish I would have read the book earlier in life.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Just be very clear that it doesn't mean it is appropriate to be selfish *******s.

The 13 year old might not be mature enough to get the difference.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Just be very clear that it doesn't mean it is appropriate to be selfish *******s.
> 
> The 13 year old might not be mature enough to get the difference.


Maybe take the opportunity to discuss the book together--chapter by chapter. Make it a learning experience for both of you.


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## bubba29 (Feb 29, 2012)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I have three sons. I bought each of them a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I told them to read it and it would help them to navigate life hopefully staying somewhere between being a doormat & a [email protected]
> 
> They are 21, 18 & 13.
> 
> ...


is that an Athol Kay book? 

the only one i've read by him is married man sex life. i think giving that book to a son soon after marriage would be the correct timing. although i am not sure it would be appropriate because although it does talk about optimally balancing beta and alpha. it's end game is sex. that is kinda creepy to give to a son. i'd like toi give that book to friends of mine but it is uncomfortable because they are gonna find out they are beta weenies and are gonna realize i am the one who pointed it out to them.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

I'd be very upset as some things in the book can easily be twisted into "How to be a Self-Centered Pr!ck". I've seen men on here use the book to justify unbelievably selfish and marriage destroying decisions. Your wife doesn't want your sons to be a$$hats. 

"put yourself first" on page 66:


> When the Nice Guy puts himself first *there is only one voice to consider — his own.* Decisions are now made by one individual, rather than by a committee. He no longer has to mind read, predict, or try to please multiple voices with conflicting agendas. When putting himself first all the information he needs to make a decision is within him:* "Is this what I want? Yes. Then that's what I'll do."*


So, if he "wants" to drink, gamble, and use prostitutes instead of paying for his child's braces, heat for the house, rent, or whatever else it is the "multiple voices" of his wife and children at home want...
well he has just been validated in his selfishness by what the book said.

Personally, I think the Boundaries books by Cloud and Townsend might yield similar personal growth without the same potential for twisting to justify evil.

Have fun when your 13yos decides he wants to take drugs, drink and drive, sleep around and catch diseases, etc. Your voice is irrelevant per the book you gave him. 

Do me a BIG favor and please keep him away from my daughters.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think it's not a bad thing especially if you take that opportunity to discuss it and your views on it. Kinda wish I had read this when I was younger and maybe wouldn't have ended up the way I did

I know their are books I plan to buy my daughters as well. Like 10 stupid things women do to mess up their lives. Sometimes we have to try and give the opposite perspective of what they are being taught from one parent


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I have three sons. I bought each of them a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I told them to read it and it would help them to navigate life hopefully staying somewhere between being a doormat & a [email protected]


Great idea! I handed around quite a few copies myself to male members of my large extended family!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

*/snark on

Oh, nice going there Frazzeled.

You have started the undoing of years of carefully managed betaization of your sons. You know it's war now. The years of indoctrination by the females in their lives will now be on a witch hunt for you. All their female Grade school, high school teachers will all be threatened by your evil actions to put your sons back into the Stone Age. Imagine, well balanced sons dealing with the realities of life with confidence and leadership.

How dare you sir. What's next...? MMSLP? There goes civilization...

*/snark off


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Blonde said:


> I'd be very upset as some things in the book can easily be twisted into "How to be a Self-Centered Pr!ck". I've seen men on here use the book to justify unbelievably selfish and marriage destroying decisions. Your wife doesn't want your sons to be a$$hats.
> 
> "put yourself first" on page 66:
> 
> ...


So the one on one time fishing, hunting, weightlifting, going to church doesn't mean anything??

Drug addiction & sleeping around are a big leap from the book.

Parts of book also talk about being responsible for your own actions. Something a lot of people seem to forget.

I do spend time discussing the book & lots of other topics with all three of my boys. My 18 year old has a steady girl friend, and I watched her do a textbook perfect sh!t test on him. He hasn't read MMSLP but he handled her perfectly. I guess some guys figure it out without the book.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Look, I can't stand beta men but if a beta man gives a boy a book he doesn't understand himself how is that going to help the son?


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

My husband puts me first. I put him first. That's what I'll tell my kids to find.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I haven't read the book so I don't know how suitable it is for a child. If you feel it's helpful, fair enough, but the fact that you didn't even ask the opinion of your wife before giving your 13yr old son a book that I'm pretty sure you knew she may object to him reading makes me wonder how helpful it's going to be. That's not treating your spouse like an equal in my opinion. If that's what you got from the book, good luck to you.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

bubba29 said:


> is that an Athol Kay book?
> 
> the only one i've read by him is married man sex life. * i think giving that book to a son soon after marriage would be the correct timing. although i am not sure it would be appropriate because although it does talk about optimally balancing beta and alpha. it's end game is sex. that is kinda creepy to give to a son.* i'd like toi give that book to friends of mine but it is uncomfortable because they are gonna find out they are beta weenies and are gonna realize i am the one who pointed it out to them.


Actually, most fights in marriage are about sex & money. Since my wife left it up to me to educate our boys on sex, they are comfortable discussing pretty much anything with me. They've had some interesting questions over the years.

If you can help your child avoid some of life's heartache's and pitfalls, why wouldn't you?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I bought books on manners and lots of other things that aren't taught these days, ones pinned at the boys and ones pointed at the girls since we have two of each. It is all good. But there has to be some practical knowledge and real life lessons to go along with all of them.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Vivid said:


> My husband puts me first. I put him first. That's what I'll tell my kids to find.


That's the way it's supposed to be. It's when one or the other decides they should be first in everything *OR* one puts the other first to the point of neglecting their own needs and then building resentment. (which is a major point of NMMNG)

As I said in my original post. The point of the book was to NOT be a doormat and NOT be a [email protected] 

There are a number of threads on TAM where the wife is complaining that her husband can't make up his mind, doesn't attract her anymore because he doesn't have the audacity, as one poster said, to have his way with her in bed. He's trying to respect her boundaries, she wants him to JUST DO IT and be confident.

NMMNG helps with confidence.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Exactly! But giving a book without discussion, especially that particular book could turn out a really disappointing son.

I would hate of my boys didn't get the nuances intended.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> Exactly! But giving a book without discussion, especially that particular book could turn out a really disappointing son.
> 
> I would hate of my boys didn't get the nuances intended.


:iagree:I've spend a lot of time talking with my kids. My wife goes to bed early, and I'll end up sitting & talking with my kids about many different topics until late.

My older two have moved out of the house, and both have said they miss sitting up & discussing things. I always have tried to keep open communication with them. I'm not their friend, I'm Dad.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You are awesome frazzled!


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I have three sons. I bought each of them a copy of No More Mr. Nice Guy. I told them to read it and it would help them to navigate life hopefully staying somewhere between being a doormat & a [email protected]
> 
> They are 21, 18 & 13.
> 
> ...


Well knowledge is power FSH. NMMNG is great but add some balance to it. 'His needs / her needs' is a good offset. Also some unrelated material like 'The seven habits'.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Thundarr said:


> Well knowledge is power FSH. NMMNG is great but add some balance to it. 'His needs / her needs' is a good offset.  Also some unrelated material like 'The seven habits'.



:iagree:
His Needs Her Needs and Five Love Languages are excellent additions. I second this.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Let's not freak our sons out, huh?!!!


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Well knowledge is power FSH. NMMNG is great but add some balance to it. *'His needs / her needs' *is a good offset. Also some unrelated material like 'The seven habits'.


Thanks for the suggestion - I've not read His needs / her needs yet. I will get it ordered.

I have read the 5 love languages with my wife. It was helpful.

To those people that think I'm a little off, I've been married 28 years, the last 15 have been rough, but it's starting to turn around. My parents & her parents never talked to their kids about sex or relationships in general. I want my kids to have resources available.

Best wedding gift I got was from my aunt. Sweet, white haired little old lady gave us "Intended for Pleasure" by Tim & Beverly LaHaye.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> Let's not freak our sons out, huh?!!!


I don't give anything to them without reading it first. Of course, now with the internet, there are a lot worse things they could be getting into. My oldest about flipped when I gave him a book. He had to actually put down his iphone.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Yeah. My girls too. 

But they really do love our attention and talking so long as it is theoretical.

My eldest daughter has been the hardest to convince about this wisdom, especially with respect to opposite sex friends. Maybe, just maybe she got the lesson she needed when she let go someone she loves because a shiny new guy came along that she didn't even want that way but who drew her attention. Good guy gone. Shiny guy gone.

Oh well. Told her.

Can't do more than that.

The boys are slower, more meandering. I think they listen. But they aren't players and could still try to be too nice. What a difficult path to walk. 

Just dont put up with craziness or bull.

Be a boy scout. 

Bout only accept the same in return


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> So the one on one time fishing, hunting, weightlifting, going to church doesn't mean anything??
> 
> Drug addiction & sleeping around are a big leap from the book.
> 
> ...


You would have to actually talk to your wife about the results from the book in your life she doesn't like.

Fellas on TAM are often quick to recommend and justify cutting off a W from access to money (if they can) and I recall one fella using this very book to justify that and HUGE unilateral financial decisions and career decisions etc...

YOUR wife doesn't like the results SHE sees. So what are YOU doing with the book that she doesn't like? Why don't you invite her to post here and tell us?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Here's a companion book for your W:









(not really... I bought it and its more about dating so its for your *DAUGHTERS*)

As a recovering doormat myself, books like Codependent No More and the Boundaries books helped me without turning me into a selfish A$$hat (hopefully :scratchhead

I DO follow my H's lead. If HE can make unilateral decisions with thousands of dollars out of the joint bank acct (another antique tractor from an auction...) so can I- braces for every child who needs them and a replacement car for the rusty old beater that won't pass inspection. (He really hates the loss of control. Braces and car updates are "frivolous" because they are not what HE wants to spend the money on...)

If he read NMMNG and listened to TAM men who advice husbands to cut off a W access to money, he'd be a D man right quick (and lose half of everything). NNMNG can lead to D in the wrong hands. Just sayin'


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Blonde said:


> Here's a companion book for your W:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wife & I discuss anything outside of regular bills over a 100, period. We both work, we both discuss. I've driven a old beater for years so I could cover the braces, medical bills for the family, etc. Our toys will get purchased after the kids are out of the house. Anything can get taken to far.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Blonde said:


> You would have to actually talk to your wife about the results from the book in your life she doesn't like.
> 
> Fellas on TAM are often quick to recommend and justify cutting off a W from access to money (if they can) and I recall one fella using this very book to justify that and HUGE unilateral financial decisions and career decisions etc...
> 
> *YOUR wife doesn't like the results SHE sees. So what are YOU doing with the book that she doesn't like*? Why don't you invite her to post here and tell us?


blonde, sometimes i think you forget that women can be abusive/controlling too...

your husband didnt like it when he lost control either. 
OP doesnt sound like an a$$hole to me.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

breeze said:


> I haven't read the book so I don't know how suitable it is for a child. If you feel it's helpful, fair enough, but the fact that you didn't even ask the opinion of your wife before giving your 13yr old son a book that I'm pretty sure you knew she may object to him reading makes me wonder how helpful it's going to be. That's not treating your spouse like an equal in my opinion. If that's what you got from the book, good luck to you.


Well, first of all, these aren't children. These are teenaged and young adult males. They are certainly old enough to learn about the physical/mechanical aspects of sexuality, so they are old enough to learn about the relationship aspects of it as well. Plus, the OP does not strike me as the kind to just drop a book in their laps and leave it at that. It's likely it is a supplement to any ongoing talks they have, which is what good dads do.

The book nowhere tells you to be an a$$hole to your partner. In fact, it's the opposite; it tells you that "nice guy" behaviors ("covert contracts" to trade service for sex, sulking, tantrums and withdrawal) are damaging to relationships. Essentially, guys like that are causing the relationship issues, because they are perceived as erratic, dishonest, and emotionally distant.

So, the author advocates that men be forthright about their relationship needs and insist on having those needs be viewed with the same importance as those of his relationship partner. If you cannot get those needs met in this honest and forthright manner, you move on. Nowhere does it promote manipulating or mistreating others. The author also advocates being upfront with one's partner about making these changes.

The issue is the OP's wife objected to his changes. The most likely scenario is that the OP used to serve his wife and wait meekly for her to reciprocate, and now he makes his needs and expectations known upfront. She is not happy that he is making sure he is respected as a distinct person with his own needs. So, hell no he should not tell her about books for his boys. It would just create unnecessary friction in the home, or worse.

One last point. I've dated a number of women before and after my marriage (which means before and after I addressed my own similar issues). The author is absolutely right about one thing at least. Most women want what the author terms an "integrated man" and would support the changes mentioned in the book. Some women don't want that, but they are poor relationship partners and should not stop you from making those changes.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Vivid said:


> My husband puts me first. I put him first. That's what I'll tell my kids to find.


Yes, of course that would be ideal (at least IMO).

But, first you need to ability to discuss your needs head-on and without shame. The books deal with toxic shame regarding sexuality that men can acquire in childhood, particularly without strong male role models, and I think there's much truth in that.

Then, much as we've seen with sexual frequency, this too can change as marriages progress. Your son who marries the great lady who meets his needs instinctively might find she changes quite a bit after children come along, or that newness wears off after a number of years, etc. Don't you want him to know how to address any unmet needs in the best possible manner?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Just be very clear that it doesn't mean it is appropriate to be selfish *******s.
> 
> The 13 year old might not be mature enough to get the difference.


That was my thought. 13 is too young.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

DTO said:


> The issue is the OP's wife objected to his changes. The most likely scenario is that the OP used to serve his wife and wait meekly for her to reciprocate, and now he makes his needs and expectations known upfront. She is not happy that he is making sure he is respected as a distinct person with his own needs.


:iagree:This is exactly what happened. I'm not a [email protected]@[email protected], but I also have made known what my needs are in our relationship. I treat her with respect & expect the same in return.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

My DH is not what I'd consider a door mat, or what others like to call 'nice guy'. He however agrees that despite assertions that the book would be of benefit to the 13yr old son in future dealings with women, that going behind the back of the mother was not honest, and would not be acceptable behaviour in my own marriage. I consider my DH and I to have grown into having a healthy dose of respect and consideration for each other, not just as partners, but as *both* having an equal say in the parenting of our children. One of those children is still in the nest, and therefore the wife still has a say.

It does say something about a relationship when one partner does not consider the other as having any rights in regards to parenting choices for the children. It makes me question whether he really is the 'nice guy'. Maybe in reality this isn't the dynamic they have at all.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't think parents need to check with the other parent before giving their child reading material....or anything else. Both parents should assume that the giver has the best interest of the child in mind. The mother can voice her disapproval, and can even debate the material with the sons.... nothing wrong with some honest debate. PLUS, wouldn't this debate give the boys the "Venus" point of view. 


So..... mom can disapprove of the material. That doesn't mean that dad did anything wrong or underhanded. He is just trying to help his boys grow into good, strong men. THAT is what mom needs to understand. 

If the genders were opposite, would there be this argument? We want our daughters to be strong and have their needs met. Well, we want the same for our sons.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SunnyT said:


> I don't think parents need to check with the other parent before giving their child reading material....or anything else. Both parents should assume that the giver has the best interest of the child in mind. The mother can voice her disapproval, and can even debate the material with the sons.... nothing wrong with some honest debate. PLUS, wouldn't this debate give the boys the "Venus" point of view.
> 
> 
> So..... mom can disapprove of the material. That doesn't mean that dad did anything wrong or underhanded. He is just trying to help his boys grow into good, strong men. THAT is what mom needs to understand.
> ...


Agree.

I know it sounds crappy, but I see two scenarios here. One, she understands the value of the book and wants her boys to be happy adults, and she won't mind. I honestly think that if the OP's wife found out her boys were being treated the same way she treats him, she would be royally pissed off.

Two, she disagrees with the book's message of empowerment for men. If that is the case then I'd be seriously questioning the types of boys she wants to raise, and say they need the book anyways.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

This is assuming that all the messages of the book are good ones. I've seen some people disagree so I'm not convinced that it's a one size fits all kind of book. On top of that, people seem to miss the point, deliberately or not, I'm not sure. If one parent goes behind the back of the other, knowing that the other would have issues with something, is that considered honest and respectful? No, obviously not. It shows an attitude of, 'I'll do whatever I want whenever I want' and 'what you think doesn't count'. You are all assuming she's a terrible person based on the perception of one person. You don't know what's in her head or why she thinks the way she does. It may be that she's not seeing a 'nice guy' 'man up'. Maybe she's seeing a husband who couldn't give a stuff about her or her opinions trying to teach her son to feel the same way.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Only of the giver of thematerial is going to be there actively encouraging dialog.

My suspicion is that most guys who would do this hope their sons don't end up like them but aren't man enough to talk to them about it... Because of they were able to do that they probably wouldn't choose to give them that book.

I gave all of our kids a book on manners. Not just generic manners but the kind you need to know when you go to the kinds of places we can't afford to take them. Nuanced things. Gentleman's gentlemen's things.

We talk about how to be strong and have boundaries and napkins and when to stand and how to say no.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Its just a book. If you're going to let your life be defined by a book....ANY book, then to me you're not the man you think you are.


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