# Marriage in the 21st Century



## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)




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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

That's why there are fewer and later marriages.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

If you look at modern Japan, you will see that women are just tired of being the housewife. She is a bad wife if the kids act up. She is a bad wife if HE cheats on her. As such, Japanese women are enjoying the idea of living single with their parents. Even those that do marry are finding themselves sexually unsatisfied. It is not uncommon for a housewife to have zero sex. Some of them go to "counseling" which amounts to being hooked up with eligible, successful men.

Japan or the U.S., there is a conflict between traditional culture and modern ideals. The modern marriage model is the "self-expressive" marriage, and I am not sure whether we are going to move forward in a meaningful sense or whether the solid, healthy marriage will be further disintegrated.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

The cartoon is consistant with what I've been saying, in a divorce the men has to give all his money away, the wife make out like a bandit and keeps the house while the guy lives in a small hell hole somewhere. That's why marriage is not a good thing for a man and they don't want to do it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> If you look at modern Japan, you will see that women are just tired of being the housewife. She is a bad wife if the kids act up. She is a bad wife if HE cheats on her. As such, Japanese women are enjoying the idea of living single with their parents. Even those that do marry are finding themselves sexually unsatisfied. It is not uncommon for a housewife to have zero sex. Some of them go to "counseling" which amounts to being hooked up with eligible, successful men.
> 
> Japan or the U.S., there is a conflict between traditional culture and modern ideals. *The modern marriage model is the "self-expressive" marriage*, and I am not sure whether we are going to move forward in a meaningful sense or whether the solid, healthy marriage will be further disintegrated.


Can you elaborate on this part?


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> Can you elaborate on this part?


A self expressive marriage is one in which partners are asking what they can get out of the marriage, not what they can put in, predominantly. As such it can feel like you can just move on instantly when things get tough. It shows itself as a weak commitment a lot of times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Yeah, pretty much sums up the state of things in the US. Not my marriage by any means, but many.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Our modern marriage was a poly triad with my wife's best friend who is married. She had a son that we never met because she wanted to keep her two relationships separate. She was a very modern woman. She had two Master Degrees and worked. and never did housework or cooked. When she was in her own home, which we never saw, she had her morning coffee delivered to her with a breakfast. We were never told what her deal was with her husband but we socialized with him on a dozen occasions. 

My wife was the wife to both me and our girlfriend. She took care of us and ran the household. Our girlfriend and I both worked. Our marriage was monogamish. Our goal was to be sexually faithful to each other, except for our girlfriend's husband, of course. I say monogamish because if we had the occasional fling, for whatever reason, it was not a deal breaker. We agreed not to ask and not to tell but if one of us found out, it would not be mentioned. Despite this freedom my wife only had sex with one guy and our girlfriend. I had 6 other women during the course of our 40+ year marriage and three of those were all when I was away from my wife for 3 months. We never got jealous because we were secure and confident that no matter who we had sex with, we would never leave each other, and that proved to be the case. My wife had full sex with one guy and hated it. After that she we just soft swung. That either meant having sex with each other while our friends were doing the same or having foreplay with others but saving the main event for each other. 

If my wife had sex with a different man every day, there was never a ripple felt in our marriage. However, she prefers girls so it worked out well for me.

What we had is called a poly triad. The two women shared me and never had sex with each other unless I was part of it. All they would say is that it was no fun for them when I was not there. I did not probe deeper because I am no fool and know a good thing when I see it. It worked very well for us over 40 years. We were like the perfect storm of poly relationships. We fit together so well that we were better as three than as two. We each fulfilled something in the others that they could not fulfill themselves. My wife remarked last week that she never had an argument with our girlfriend. We prospered and had a great life. One that I would never trade for another. I do not think that if we tried it again, it would work with a different girlfriend. She fit nicely into our marriage. I go to have a few thousand threesomes and be shared by two women. My wife and girlfriend got a chance to discover and explore their bisexuality without having to go outside the relationship. Win-win for all and thoroughly modern minus the black guy who is all the rage right now.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

A large part of the problem with modern relationships is that men's thinking has not caught up with the present realities. Yes these things happen, although it is not often as blatant as the cartoon. Infidelity is not always present and in fact probably occurs less than half the time. And when it does it could be the man or the woman.
Men still cling to antiquated ideas about love and marriage and we get abused because of our beliefs. We still believe in "forever" when reality tells us that the "forever" of yesterday is far different than the "forever" of today. util men wake up to the realities of modern life and start advocating for their rights, nothing will change.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

I think infidelity is a lot older than the 21st century (for men and women)

The cartoon does point out one of the draws of infidelity - its easy to find a new person exciting and attractive because you don't need to deal with daily chores with them.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> I think infidelity is a lot older than the 21st century (for men and women)
> 
> The cartoon does point out one of the draws of infidelity - its easy to find a new person exciting and attractive because you don't need to deal with daily chores with them.


I don't know if your reply was directed towards me, but my response was not about the infidelity aspect as much as towards the expectations that most men have and the end results.
Absolutely infidelity has been happening as long as we have had the institution of marriage. That hasn't changed. What has changed is the dynamics that come with it.
The societal consequences of infidelity has changed dramatically over the past 50 years, along with everything else. In part, this has also greatly increased both the opportunity and the possibilities that infidelity could happen. 
The simple fact of the matter is that women now hold the upper hand as far as being in tuned with the modern realities than men are. We still assume so much based on all of the throwbacks to the past when women did not have the options they have today and marriage was considered more or less essential to economic, financial and societal success and acceptance.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Ynot said:


> A large part of the problem with modern relationships is that men's thinking has not caught up with the present realities. Yes these things happen, although it is not often as blatant as the cartoon. Infidelity is not always present and in fact probably occurs less than half the time. And when it does it could be the man or the woman.
> Men still cling to antiquated ideas about love and marriage and we get abused because of our beliefs. We still believe in "forever" when reality tells us that the "forever" of yesterday is far different than the "forever" of today. util men wake up to the realities of modern life and start advocating for their rights, nothing will change.


Unfortunately, go read the sexodus thread and see how misogynistic men are who want to fight for their rights, LOL>


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hi @KJ_Simmons I doubt this cartoon was a random post by you. How are you and your household doing these days?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> Unfortunately, go read the sexodus thread and see how misogynistic men are who want to fight for their rights, LOL>


Yes, you are right. Men are often considered misogynistic whenever they stand up for themselves, but that is another "convenient" stereotype that we must address.

I really wasn't referring to misogynistic men, but men in general. One does not need to hate any one else, especially women to recognize modern realities and to defend their rights. 

I don't hate women, but I recognize that generally speaking, women are much more in touch with modern times than most men are. Women recognize the power they have and are exercising that power to attain happiness. Men in general, not so much. Hence the number of devastated men following divorce, especially from WAW syndrome. We can't seem to accept that reality of modern life and are devastated when women leave.

We as men do little to protect our selves. I am not advocating that men leave their wife, only that they recognize the very real threats that surround them and their marriage. Rather than becoming the domesticated shlubs most of us become, we need to exercise our rights as human beings to be the person we want to become. We are more than the providers depicted in the cartoon.

I for one know I was guilty.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Ynot said:


> Yes, you are right. Men are often considered misogynistic whenever they stand up for themselves, but that is another "convenient" stereotype that we must address.
> 
> I really wasn't referring to misogynistic men, but men in general. One does not need to hate any one else, especially women to recognize modern realities and to defend their rights.
> 
> ...


 Men are devastate by these so called Walk Away Wives because of how out of the blue they arise. Sure, the women who feel empowered to leave that adhere to this "Condition" can attest to it's actualities, but to men these aspects are trivial, at best... 

I have read countless articles about WAW's and some have advocated some things as minor as leaving a glass on the sink constantly, not taking out the trash when asked, things that are simple, but oh so loathsome that these valiant wives just happened to "Escape" from. Don't get me wrong, I hope a woman who left a cheating, abusive POS takes him to the cleaners and makes his life a living hell, especially since most cases involve woman being duped into binding with these men well before they know their true nature.

But for every so called WAW, there is a "Cheaper to keep her" out there.... If you found a man who left his wife, and in effect broke up a family, cause his wife didn't make his favorite meal, or leave the remote on the Coffee able, or just is plain old undesirable to be with, you'd have a public outcry and general consensus that this man is lame, weak, and unable to accept his Wife for who she is, faults and all..

For the most part the common American man, and by default Husbands, are faced with being insidiously emasculated by the Media, social expectations and most relationships fall into this cycle.. If a man act's like a man, he's is an A55hole, and it's a reason to leave... If he act's just like the man his Wife want's him to be, he is lame, unexciting and she leaves for a "Real" man...

I'd say entitlement, consumerism and people general lack of wanting to focus effort on anything these day's attributes to this indifference of a marriage failing, "Who care's, I can just get a NEW one"....


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> Men are devastate by these so called Walk Away Wives because of how out of the blue they arise. Sure, the women who feel empowered to leave that adhere to this "Condition" can attest to it's actualities, but to men these aspects are trivial, at best...
> 
> I have read countless articles about WAW's and some have advocated some things as minor as leaving a glass on the sink constantly, not taking out the trash when asked, things that are simple, but oh so loathsome that these valiant wives just happened to "Escape" from. Don't get me wrong, I hope a woman who left a cheating, abusive POS takes him to the cleaners and makes his life a living hell, especially since most cases involve woman being duped into binding with these men well before they know their true nature.
> 
> ...


First off I should say that many of the reasons you cited that WAWs use as they leave are just excuses for some real underlying issues which are not being addressed. I sincerely doubt that anyone walks away simply because of a glass left in the sink.
Secondly, though I would agree with you that many men are left devastated by a WAW, precisely because of the later points you made. A large part of that problem is a result of the fact that men are not organized in any meaningful way. And yes, that is a result of how we have been conditioned to live as men in modern America.
Few men, have any real life bonding with other men. We may golf together and gossip about wives, and such. But generally we have been conditioned to be solitary creatures cut off from other men. We often set ourselves up as being different from other men. 
We, as men, have been conditioned from birth to behave as we do.
Read the book "Iron John" if you would like to hear about how much our social conditioning has changed in the past 100 years or so.
Until we recognize the failure of the current conditioning, we will never be able teach our sons (and daughters) the real value of a man.
A man doesn't have to be a jerk, an Alpha, or a misogynist. But he must realize that he is a real human being with real value.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Ynot said:


> First off I should say that many of the reasons you cited that WAWs use as they leave are just excuses for some real underlying issues which are not being addressed. I sincerely doubt that anyone walks away simply because of a glass left in the sink.
> Secondly, though I would agree with you that many men are left devastated by a WAW, precisely because of the later points you made. A large part of that problem is a result of the fact that men are not organized in any meaningful way. And yes, that is a result of how we have been conditioned to live as men in modern America.
> Few men, have any real life bonding with other men. We may golf together and gossip about wives, and such. But generally we have been conditioned to be solitary creatures cut off from other men. We often set ourselves up as being different from other men.
> We, as men, have been conditioned from birth to behave as we do.
> ...


 I am not disagreeing with you in the slightest, save for the WAW parts. But the trade off of men bonding and formulating male influenced relationships take time... And time not spent together in a marriage is spent apart, and with this comes the risk of garnishing a opinion from one's wife that he is neglecting her needs, not paying enough attention to her, not being a father enough to their children if they have them, etc. 

I'd say thru opinion, not conviction, that the modern day marriage is as fragile a union as it has ever been. General dissatisfaction with lack of real effort is now purpose enough to just "Walk away"...... Men who use the excuse of a midlife crisis due to now realizing their own potential till it felt too late often try to reclaim it with disastrous results.... They are chided for doing this, and rightly should be. All the sacrifices he made, or acceptations, or efforts to provide a happy and loving environment for his family's wants and needs are all for naught in one instant, and off he goes to spend his 401K and hook up with some young hottie... No one has the brass to say "You go boy"... But damn if you don't here the rah rah crowd chime in "You go girl"..... The contrasts are astounding, as well at the public perception of both instances.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

The cartoon feeds a lot of stereotypes, but I lol'd anyway.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Few men, have any real life bonding with other men. We may golf together and gossip about wives, and such. But generally we have been conditioned to be solitary creatures cut off from other men. We often set ourselves up as being different from other men.
> We, as men, have been conditioned from birth to behave as we do.
> Read the book "Iron John" if you would like to hear about how much our social conditioning has changed in the past 100 years or so.
> Until we recognize the failure of the current conditioning, we will never be able teach our sons (and daughters) the real value of a man.
> A man doesn't have to be a jerk, an Alpha, or a misogynist. But he must realize that he is a real human being with real value.


You know, for just a second I thought you were talking about the fairy tale from Grimm Bros. but then I realized you're talking about the actual book by Bly. (which used the fairy tale) I listened to the audio version of that, and I thought it was a great book.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Kivlor said:


> You know, for just a second I thought you were talking about the fairy tale from Grimm Bros. but then I realized you're talking about the actual book by Bly. (which used the fairy tale) I listened to the audio version of that, and I thought it was a great book.


Iron John by Bly was the basis of No More Mister Nice Guy. Many women and quite a few guys feel that book is very misogynistic. But the basis for that dislike is largely based on the modern ideas that men only live to serve. And that idea is rooted in modern feminism's entitlement mentality. I am not proposing going back to cave man days but there really needs to a rebalancing of gender roles based on reality rather than idealism. Most men can and do contribute. Our service should be appreciated and not just expected as. The same holds true for women. But the recognition needs to be voluntary and not expected


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Ynot said:


> Iron John by Bly was the basis of No More Mister Nice Guy. Many women and quite a few guys feel that book is very misogynistic. But the basis for that dislike is largely based on the modern ideas that men only live to serve. And that idea is rooted in modern feminism's entitlement mentality. I am not proposing going back to cave man days but there really needs to a rebalancing of gender roles based on reality rather than idealism. Most men can and do contribute. Our service should be appreciated and not just expected as. The same holds true for women. But the recognition needs to be voluntary and not expected


I'm an advocate of going back to cave man days temporarily. Maybe after a generation or two of that we can permit women to live as equals again and they'll not take it for granted. :wink2:

Ok, I'm kidding... but seriously... more folks need to stand up and refuse to cave on these issues. I didn't realize that NMMNG was based on Iron John. But I also haven't finished NMMG, I'm only a few pages in.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Kivlor said:


> I'm an advocate of going back to cave man days temporarily. Maybe after a generation or two of that we can permit women to live as equals again and they'll not take it for granted. :wink2:
> 
> Ok, I'm kidding... but seriously... more folks need to stand up and refuse to cave on these issues. I didn't realize that NMMNG was based on Iron John. But I also haven't finished NMMG, I'm only a few pages in.


I think he talks about it Iron John in the forward or intro but yeah a lot of what Glover talks about is discussed in Iron John. Men no longer bond with each other in part because fathers often work outside of the home and kids seldom get the opportunity to work with their fathers, leaving women (including teachers) in primary control of the raising of the children. 
Instead of learning to become men of character, males are being raised to be Nice Guys, who live to provide for others and learn to place women on pedastels. 
Watch practically any sit-com or commercial on TV. Men are portrayed as weak comical characters while women are often depicted as the glue that holds the family together in spite of the incompetence of the man. 
Sadly, most of us accept it as true, because that is what we have been conditioned to believe.
Heck even the cartoon in the OP tells the same story. She wants to get married, he says OK. She wants to have kids, he says OK. She yammers at him and he submits, doing yard work, putting in time on the job, trying to achieve. Life happens to him, he just complies. Very few men actually take control of their lives anymore.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Ynot said:


> Few men, have any real life bonding with other men. We may golf together and gossip about wives, and such. But generally we have been conditioned to be solitary creatures cut off from other men. We often set ourselves up as being different from other men.


I was sort of concerned about the girlification of schools and how to raise a good, confident man. Someone recommended the Wonder of Boys to me. I don't remember all of it. But I remember the author talking about the importance of a boy's tribe. My son has a very tight tribe. I like that. I hope that ability to form strong friendships continues. 



> We, as men, have been conditioned from birth to behave as we do.
> Read the book "Iron John" if you would like to hear about how much our social conditioning has changed in the past 100 years or so.
> Until we recognize the failure of the current conditioning, we will never be able teach our sons (and daughters) the real value of a man.
> A man doesn't have to be a jerk, an Alpha, or a misogynist. But he must realize that he is a real human being with real value.


Luckily for my kids, both of their parents understand their value. For my son, I am glad that he sees a man in his father who can be kind, loving on the one hand with limits his character will not allow to be crossed. Even by me. Especially by me. For my daughter, I am glad she sees a man who listens attentively to his wife's thoughts and opinions, admits when he does not understand but tries. One who seeks to maintain connection instead of just phoning it in. I am glad for both of them that they see a man who did not just choose a piece of ass (even though I am ) regardless of character, work ethic, intelligence and the like.

I wish more kids had examples like my DH.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I gave up a corporate career to start my own business so that I could become a real Dad to my children. I wanted more than to just put food on the table, pay the bills and be the provider. I started my own business and did all of that and more! I coached baseball and basketball for both my son and my daughter. I took them to practices when I didn't coach, I went to every play, speech tournament, performance, recital and game. I dropped them off and picked them up from school. I wouldn't trade what I had for anything else in the world.
Then when everything went south during the mortgage meltdown I lost everything. Instead of having a partner to help me pick up the pieces, I was told to do what I wanted, she didn't want to know about it. I took a huge hit, even had to file bankruptcy to save the house. But nobody went without and the kids never knew anything was wrong.
Later on, she told me she blamed me for our issues because I wouldn't get a job. Never mind that I what kind of Dad I was!
Nope providing for her needs and maintaining the appearance was more important. After all in her mind she deserved it!


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Ynot said:


> I gave up a corporate career to start my own business so that I could become a real Dad to my children. I wanted more than to just put food on the table, pay the bills and be the provider. I started my own business and did all of that and more! I coached baseball and basketball for both my son and my daughter. I took them to practices when I didn't coach, I went to every play, speech tournament, performance, recital and game. I dropped them off and picked them up from school. I wouldn't trade what I had for anything else in the world.
> Then when everything went south during the mortgage meltdown I lost everything. Instead of having a partner to help me pick up the pieces, I was told to do what I wanted, she didn't want to know about it. I took a huge hit, even had to file bankruptcy to save the house. But nobody went without and the kids never knew anything was wrong.
> Later on, she told me she blamed me for our issues because I wouldn't get a job. Never mind that I what kind of Dad I was!
> Nope providing for her needs and maintaining the appearance was more important. After all in her mind she deserved it!


YNOT after a time of real reflection and beating the sh!t out of yourself 'm glad to se you have seen the light:smile2:

55


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