# Everything in my marriage is wrong, how do I cope?



## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

I've been married for 17 years, I'm 35 now. My husband is 45. 3 little kids. So many issues, I don't even know where to start. 

We have been intimate only 4-5 times since before the youngest was born, and she is 4 now. My husband has been always very low on libido, and hardly ever initiated, and since having kids was exhausting, I stopped initiating. 

He does hint from time to time now that he'd want more, but he does it in such a crude way, that I can't imagine sleeping with him again. I need to connect with him first, and I keep telling him that, but our attempts fail. 

My biggest way to connect is to talk to him. When he comes home from work (I stay home with the kids), I have so much to tell him, and I want to hear about his day. He is not interested. He goes straight to his computer and watches political channels. When I try to talk to him, he looks at his watch, and replies in monosyllables. This is very hard on me, and I told him that. From time to time he tries, and stayes in the kithen for 10 minutes while I wash the dishes, but the conversation doesn't flow and he gets bored and I get frustrated. 

I don't know how else to connect. He's always prefered solitude and computer, but before kids we had more time open for spending time together. Now's there's less time. 

Several months ago he started really trying to have more sex, but it was so forced and fake. There was no connection, I felt like I was with a stranger. I tried to go along, I really wanted to connect, I thought that maybe we could start with the physical connection and then follow with an emotional one. 

I told him that I really appreciated him trying, and that I really wanted to work on the physical part of the relationship, but I really needed him to be patient and give me more time. I actually thought that we actually started something. We talked, we shared. I was encouraged. 

Then, after 3 days of acting uncharasteristically sexual, he simply stopped. It was like he tried to turn me on, and I didn't turn on fast enough, and he stopped. I was devastated, but I didn't want to give up. 

I initiated sex myself, even if I felt I wasn't ready. It turned out being horrible. I felt violated. It is scary for me to think about it--that I initiated sex with my husband, he didn't force me, and yet the experience turned out to be absolutely awful. I wanted him to stop, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I didn't. 

He hasn't tried since, and I think I will need to push him away, if he did. I can't even think about being intimate with him, I find the idea repulsive.

I think I still love him. After all, I spent half of my life with him. He was my first boyfriend, my only partner. I do care for him. The good feelings are burried deep, but I do appreciate him as a person. He works hard, supports my decision to stay home and homeshool (we have terrible public schools here, drugs and everything), he is loyal. I'm not sure he loves me, though. 

He has a very traditional idea of marriage. Marriage is forever. A year ago I asked him to work on an idea of separation. I asked him whether he would consider living separately for a little bit, and working on being good parents to our children. He is categorially against it. He won't separate. He said that if we were to separate, he would not pay child support and would leave me on my own, and that I will need to put the kids to school and support them myself. Which doesn't make sense, if he cares about the kids, right? He is an avid homeschooling advocate now and believes that it is the best for our children to be homeschoold for the middle school. 

He also managed to tell the kids that 'mom wanted to live separately' which upset them very much. 

So I don't think divorce is an option right now. I do think it is better for the kids not to split the family and not to put them in the horrible local school, or even a worse school. We are in a nice neighborhood now, but I will need to move, and other schools are even worse here. I also think that my husband won't work on making the divorce a more positive experience for the kids (which is hard to do with both willing partners, and probably impossible with my husband who is not willing.)

I think I lost any hope that my husband will change. He's never changed, in all those years. He did make efforts, but shortlived, and always returned to his own set ways. 

We are a terrible match. He likes to be alone, he needs his peace and quiet. He comes from work where he deals with people, and want to relax. 

I spend my days with the kids, I don't have many friends and none who are close, and I need and want to spend time with him. He ends up getting his needs, and I don't.

My wishes are so simple. I'd like to have dinner with him when he comes home, and talk about our days. I'd like him to stay in the kitchen while I wash the dishes and tidy up. Long ago I abandoned the idea that he needs to do chores or help out--he's never done anything like that, other than 'making an effort' on my request, and he lasted a week here and a week there. 

But just staying in the kitchen while I wash the dishes, this would make me so happy. He knows it. And he won't. 

I think if he did just that (dinner, and after dinner), I'd feel I could be intimate with him again. It would honestly be enough. I have told him that as well. I guess he doesn't want to have sex badly enough? I do, but I just can't jump back at it. I'm not ready emotionally, at all. 

I read a post here that women want to be cherished. I haven't felt cherished in the last 5 years, and even before that our marriage wasn't great. But it wasn't THAT bad. I do so need to be cherished. I don't even remember how it feels anymore. 

I try to do my part, despite the disconnection, but it is probably not enough for him either. I make him lunches every day, and write little love notes to him. I email him to work and tell him I love him. (At those moments I do feel that I love him. My core still has this love. It is easier to express it when we are apart.)

When he comes home, I let him rest. I massage his shoulders, without him asking. And of course I try my best to clean, cook, homeschool, do laundry--none of it very successfuly, but to give him credit he doesn't complain.

I asked him recently whether he could name 3 things that I could do so that he would feel more loved. He couldn't come up with anything. He said he will think about it, but he never mentioned this to me again. He didn't ask me if ther were 3 things that he could be doing for me. I think he knows--dinner, stay with me while I wash the dishes, and help to put kids to bed. Those are my 3 big ones. I'd feel more connected if he were to do it. Funny how the reality of married life is. Years ago I would have thought that something like giving me a compliment or bringing me flowers would make a difference. Now those would seem like a sick joke. 

Well, this is getting way too long and this is just the tip of the iceberg. 

If anyone read it, thank you for listening. Another thing is, that I have no friends I could share any of this with. With the people I hang out with (other homeschooling parents, who else?) having an unhappy marriage is shameful. There's a huge stigma attached to fathers who are not involved. And besides, who'd want to hear me whine? It is all about appearances. 

Tuli


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tell him that if he won't go to therapy with you, you are filing for divorce. Let the professional take care of it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Also, investigate what your rights are, with regards to support. Paying child support isn't an option, in most areas.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> Tell him that if he won't go to therapy with you, you are filing for divorce. Let the professional take care of it.


We've tried therapy in the past. Twice. Both times we exited the first session so angry and resentful of each other, that the whole thing seemed counterproductive.

Right now we simply can't do it. He works long hours, including weekends, and he is not able to take any predictable time off. We also recently moved, and don't have a trusted baby sitter yet. Our oldest child (8 years old) has severe anxiety issues, and being left with a new sitter is extremely traumatic for her. She is also still stressed over the move and leaving her friends behind. 

I'm afraid therapy, unfortunately, is not an option now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What, you thought going to a therapist was going to FIX everying?

All they do is point out what's wrong and - IF you go BACK - show you ways to change your actions so that BOTH of you get what you want.

Why, again, is therapy not an option?


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

PBear said:


> Also, investigate what your rights are, with regards to support. Paying child support isn't an option, in most areas.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yeah, I know. DH is a lawyer, so he knows too. He threatens to quit his job and go on social assistance if we were to get a divorce.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...you stay married because he threatens you? 

Educate yourself on what he OWES you, whether he's working or not. Judges will NOT look kindly on a lawyer who quits his job to get out of child support. They're not stupid. And besides, will he stay on public assistance for 15 years? I think not. 

Stop making excuses.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> What, you thought going to a therapist was going to FIX everying?
> 
> All they do is point out what's wrong and - IF you go BACK - show you ways to change your actions so that BOTH of you get what you want.
> 
> Why, again, is therapy not an option?


He works extremely long hours. He can't take time off in advance. Kids have no baby sitter and the oldest can't handle baby sitters now. The oldest is in therapy for her anxiety issues. 

I'm afraid that even if we somehow, magically, carved out some time for therapy, the initial process would be so painful and explosive that it would destroy our marriage. Right now we just avoid, avoid, avoid and we have moments that are sort of bearable. We came from a decent camping trip recently. On the surface, we had pleasant moments. 

I also don't see how therapy can work, if H has consistantly refused to change his ways. He does not BELIEVE in change. He believes people don't change, and he certainly does not want to change. He also doesn't believe that a marriage requires work. He claims that his mother got used to his father, and therefore I should get used to him. 

10 years ago, we almost divorced. H was depressed and wanted out. That was before kids. I felt I really loved him and that we deserved a chance. I bought Dr. Phil's book, Relationship Rescue, and followed it to a T. It was hard, hard work, and after 4 months of this H said he fell in love with me again, and wanted to be married. I can't maintain that level of work now. I am drained. I can't devote 100% of myself into being everything for him without getting anything in return. I know I shouldn't expect a return, and that was the whole point of the exercise, to just GIVE, but at this time I feel I will have a nervous break down if I try this again. 

It is a vicious circle. No exit. It is either therapy or divorce, and therapy won't work for H, and divorce will be too traumatic for the kids, because H refuses to 'work' on it so that the kids are not as traumatised. My head is about to explode.

Thanks for listening.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> So...you stay married because he threatens you?
> 
> Educate yourself on what he OWES you, whether he's working or not. Judges will NOT look kindly on a lawyer who quits his job to get out of child support. They're not stupid. And besides, will he stay on public assistance for 15 years? I think not.
> 
> Stop making excuses.



Because I worry about the children and their best interests. 
A 'good' divorce requires a huge effort on behalf of both parents and I don't believe he will put any effort in it. And a bad divorce, plus public school / daycare will be too traumatic for the children. 

I do have two degrees, but my job, especially in this economy, will pay very, very little. I have one of those useless degrees. Well, two of those. 

We have no assets, no savings. 

H says that all he needs is a room and his Kindle. I think he'd turn into a hermit and stay on assistance forever, if he had a chance. Especially if he got himself into thinking that he was a martyr. However I don't see how this plan of his fits with his idea (of which he is very proud) of giving his children the best possible education by homeschooling (not to argue this point, but this is what he believes in, and he talks often how bad our public schools (in our area) would be for our kids. 

I just wish he talked. When we first married, and I was 18 and in love, and naive, I believed that we would never have any issues, because we would be able to resolve them by talking, discussing, sharing, listening. I just had no idea that some people simply don't talk. I don't know how to live with a person who doesn't talk. I used to try to force discussions; I used to write letters to him. I've given up long time ago.

I guess the bottom line is that I stay married because I truly believe that divorcing H will be absolutely awful for my children. I can't do this to them. He will be blaming me (he already tried that), the kids quality of life will go down, they will pretty much lose both parents, as I will need to work, so they will see me for a much short time than they are used to. They are still very young 8, 6, and 4. 

It would be easier if H was abusive in an open, definable way.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the thing. He has no reason to change. He'll continue for 50 more years because you carry him. He decided to stay in the marriage because you sucked up and followed Dr Phil and made HIS llife perfect, and blindly believed that, if you did, he would reciprocate. But he wasn't raised that way. He was raised where the father lives his life the way he wants it, and the rest of the family is just there to 'decorate' him.

Do you honestly want to stay in that life for 50 more years?

He won't change. Not unless he is going to lose you. And even then, he may be incapable. 

But I'm here to tell you that staying married for the kids can do SEVERE DAMAGE to the KIDS. I know, because I stayed. And my DD21 is now a shell of the person she should have become - both because she had a harmful father and because I became more and more depressed at being nothing more than a servant/slave and came close to suicide a couple of times DIRECTLY BECAUSE of my shell of a marriage. btw, I, too, tried the letters, the crying, the begging for talking...and was ignored because he had no REASON to listen to me; after all, I stayed in that marriage, didn't I?

If you think you can stay a servant/slave for 14 more years and not succumb to despair, go ahead and stay. But your kids will still be learning to repeat their parents' bad habits and choices - we all do, unless one of the parents steps in and changes the cycle.

Your H became the same man his father was. Your kids will either become just like him - aloof, mentally abusive, and not loving - or you - submissive, undeserving of happiness. Because that's what you two are modeling.

And, I'm sorry, but you still are making excuses. Nowadays, kids who don't go to day care are at a distinct disadvantage when they go to school, in terms of learning and in terms of social skills. Look at your daughter - she has an unresponsive father who is never there, she has a mother who won't stand up for herself (and maybe the kids), and the family dynamics (which are usually the cause of a child's problems) hasn't changed one bit. I've worked my daughter's whole life and it never even factored into an issue; in fact, she thrived in day care and after-school care and both gave her a TON of fun outlets and friends. It's not as bad as you think.

And it may not even come to that. He doesn't have time for therapy because he has no reason to. If he's up against the loss of his family, you'd be surprised at what he can do.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you for taking the time to reply. 

I agree with a lot, but maybe I'm still making excuses. I do stand up for myself and the kids. I don't model submission. 

Another really big thing is that I homeschooling matters a lot to me (this is just a given, and not going to change). I do know that if I had to give it up, I would be depressed for certain. While being married, despite being unhappy and unfulfilled, I am not depressed. 

If I knew, for certain, that leaving him would be better for the kids, I'd do it. But right now I'm still unsure. I'm worried that leaving him will make me depressed, and that I wouldn't be able to cope. 

I need to be able to cope. I won't be of any use to the kids if I have a break down AND all of their life is disrupted. 

I have no living relatives. I have no close friends here, as we moved. Those who were close friends are growing apart because of the distance. I have zero safety net, and no soft shoulder to fall on. I'm absolutely by myself, and I need to be able to cope no matter what. 

I'm trying to figure out in what circumstances I can cope better.

Another very important thing with H, is that he absolutely can't stand any blackmail. His stance is to never, ever succumb to blackmail, even if it is going to kill him. He's very serious on this one. To tell him, "either therapy, or divorce" is blackmail, in his books. I know from reading around that to many partners a declaration like this is a wake up call. Not for H. It would only antagonize him. 

So if I were to insist on therapy, I'd need to come up with something from non-violent communication techniques.

But again, I'm afraid that starting therapy would lead to me slipping into depression. I can't afford depression right now.

Not sure whether I'm still making excuses, but I need to figure out a lot of things in my head.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

STARTING therapy would lead you to depression? How is that?

I, too, thought when DD21 was 4 or 5 that I could handle anything. Ten years later is a long time.

What you are saying is that you are choosing your comfort and your homeschooling over your personal needs as a woman and wife. That's fine, if it's that important to you; for some people it is. 

But you aren't going to get both without being willing to risk the former.

The biggest flag I see, however, is that you are alone. If you're going to stick with this loveless marriage, then you're going to have to replace it with friends and activities. THAT you DO have control over. Find a local homeschooling group and start meeting with the other parents in it, for starters.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's a non-violent communication technique?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Are you nixing the idea of marriage counseling (joint therapy), individual therapy, or both?

Because what's to stop you from going to individual therapy just for you - so that you have an outlet - someone to talk to, a way to learn coping strategies, etc?

And...all of the extra hours at work. Your H is as work during all those times, yes? He isn't involved with someone else?

Best wishes.


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

I read your posts here and I feel so much sadness for you. It sounds like you have put yourself last for so long, you don't even know how to function as an *individual.* 

Your husband is terrorizing you. He has created a character for himself where if you ask for counseling, it's "blackmail." If you divorce him, he will find a way to screw you out of child support and home schooling. If you stay, your quality of life is poor.

This is highly abusive. I also say I "believe in marriage" (like your husband) but we are very different: my idea of "marriage" is completely different - opposite, probably - from his! So while I am not a fan of divorce, in your case, it sounds logical, since he won't even consider counseling.

Don't worry so much about the home schooling. Even if he pays off the judge or whatever, your kids will still spend most of their hours at home, and you can spend some time with them in the evenings and make sure they are learning. There are lots of social advantages to attending school. Your child with anxiety may end up with big problems in college and the workplace if she is sheltered from even just being in a classroom - I'm not her psychologist, so, you know, take it with a grain of salt - but I'm just expressing the "common sense" perspective.

Don't be so frightened to leave. You actually do count, not just he and not just your children.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> What's a non-violent communication technique?


The Center for Nonviolent Communication | Center for Nonviolent Communication
I really strive for communicating this way. I'm not always successful, though. More about it here: NONVIOLENT COMMUNICATION


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> STARTING therapy would lead you to depression? How is that?


I will need to focus on our issues. I feel helpless in changing the situation. This will make me depressed. THis is at leat my prior experience. Therapy would help me if I could see someone daily for the first rough patch, but this is not an option. Typically they can see you twice a month. I will be absolutely miserable. 




> I, too, thought when DD21 was 4 or 5 that I could handle anything. Ten years later is a long time.
> 
> What you are saying is that you are choosing your comfort and your homeschooling over your personal needs as a woman and wife. That's fine, if it's that important to you; for some people it is.



I'm trying to figure out what's more important. I am not sure my needs as a woman and wife will be met even if I were to divorce. 




> But you aren't going to get both without being willing to risk the former.
> 
> The biggest flag I see, however, is that you are alone. If you're going to stick with this loveless marriage, then you're going to have to replace it with friends and activities. THAT you DO have control over. Find a local homeschooling group and start meeting with the other parents in it, for starters.


[/QUOTE]

I'm working on this. I'm working on meeting my personal needs in other ways. I joined a writing group, I go out by myself at least once a week (just for a walk, or for coffee). I do meet up with homeschoolers. 

Though lately meeting up with homeschoolers is depressing, because in just catching snippets of conversations about their husbands makes me realise how much I lack. It is not that they blab about it all the time, but even something like "H and I discussed X over dinner" makes me sad, because I wish I had something as simple as this. 

Divorce is a huge risk, and I keep wondering whether it is justifiable right now. Will I be able to be the mother I want to be for the kids? Will I remain strong for them? What if things will be worse?


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Are you nixing the idea of marriage counseling (joint therapy), individual therapy, or both?
> 
> Because what's to stop you from going to individual therapy just for you - so that you have an outlet - someone to talk to, a way to learn coping strategies, etc?
> 
> ...


I am unsure about even individual therapy at this point. It will certainly stir my hurts and emotions, and I feel emotionally fragile now. I can't even watch the news. As long as I don't think about it too deeply, I'm coping, but therapy will force me to think deeply about things. Then there's the issue of finding the right therapist. I'm picky . Some 7 years ago I went through several first sessions with various therapists. It wasn't easy to find a good math. I ended up with two who kept telling me to leave H, which wasn't helpful. 

Yeah, he is at work. He is not involved with anyone else. Their department is being restructured, many people are on mat leaves, and he is working for 2 or 3, basically. I know he is stressed out and overtired all the time, so I try to be supportive and understanding, and to be easy on him. But it is still very tough emotionally not to get anything in return. Even if I tell him "I love you", he won't respond with "I love you too."


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

omega said:


> I read your posts here and I feel so much sadness for you. It sounds like you have put yourself last for so long, you don't even know how to function as an *individual.*
> 
> Your husband is terrorizing you. He has created a character for himself where if you ask for counseling, it's "blackmail." If you divorce him, he will find a way to screw you out of child support and home schooling. If you stay, your quality of life is poor.
> 
> ...


Thank you for reading and commenting. There is so much that I need to process.

I think he would've considered councelling if he had more free time. If his only free time is a couple of hours each day where he reads, he won't sacrifice it for something which is not relaxing for him. He wouldn't even sacrifice his reading / watching news time for sex. 

Lately I'm able to have quite a lot of time for myself. I recently got my driver's license, and I can just get into the car and go away in the evening, and he is fine with that, and even encourages that. I think he is trying to 'pay me back' in kind--he wants time away from me, and he is geneours with giving me my free time. The fact is that even if I do enjoy going out on my own, I'd rather spend time with him (not him as he is now, but if he wanted to spend time with me as well, if this makes sense.)

My oldest's anxiety has nothing to do with lack of social opportunities. She is actually very active in the homeschooling community--takes plenty of classes, has playdates, and so on. But she has some issues that would make school torterous for her, so this is a big consideration of mine. I know she will survive, but I want more than mere survival for her. So I'm back to square one, trying to figure out, with some certainty, what is better for the kids. Because if they end up worse than now, I won't feel happy as a woman and a mother either. 

The funny thing is, he considers me to be emotionally abusive and manipulative. He never said this, but when we moved, I was packing, and I saw a page from his medical chart, and there was a comment by his doctor 'emotionally abused by wife'. 

I did figure out what he considers as being manipulated. The big thing for him is when I ask him when he is going to be home. I need to know, in order to plan my day, especially when the kids were younger. He finds that controlling. And when I used to get upset that he wouldn't call to let me know that he was going to be late--he considered that being manipulative. 

Another thing he found manipulative was when he was travelling two weeks out of every month, and he'd come home, and right away go out with friends or to the movies for the entire day. I used to cry, and beg him not to be out too long. I later realised that asking him to please not to be out too long was pretty much a guarantee for him not coming for for 6-8 hours. I still cried, I just couldn't control myself. I felt guilty for crying, but I wasn't crying to manipulate him, I was just overwhelmed with emotions. 

He doesn't understand that some people can become overwhelmed with emotions--the idea is very foreign not him. He experiences things completely differently from me. It is so alien to him, that he doesn't even believe me when I try to explain. He thinks that even my explanations are an attempt to manipulate him. Which makes me feel helpless, like talking to a wall.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli said:


> I will need to focus on our issues. I feel helpless in changing the situation. This will make me depressed. THis is at leat my prior experience.


Ah, so you assume that you will be able to shove it all to the back of your mind and not feel it, and you'll be fine?

That's what I did. That's what led to long-term DEEP depression - denying yourself, your worth, your right to happiness.

Does prior experience mean that you've had problems with him before and hit rock bottom, or was it with someone else?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli said:


> I think he would've considered councelling if he had more free time.


 I thought you said that he absolutely refused to consider counseling. Now you're saying that he would if he could?

What you are saying to us is called victim mentality. You desperately want better, but when we call you out on what we ALL KNOW is the problem - your husband - you run to his defense. Why? Because you and I both know that, for you to actively approach him for a change would be scary, damaging, potentially harmful...and you aren't up to it. You won't even go to or stay with therapy because you KNOW the therapist will tell you that you have to take a stand - and you're scared to.

Believe me, I know. BTDT. The last 30 years of my life have been dictated by trying to avoid DH getting upset. So the thought of saying something so monumental to him strikes terror in my heart. The only times I've been able to say anything at all is when I'm SO UTTERLY DESPERATE, so close to ending my life, that I think what have I got to lose?

Do you really want to put your kids in the position of depending on your strength? Which is very obviously already wavering? You can't even visit with other mothers because their happiness is too painful to experience. 

tuli, you need help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli said:


> My oldest's anxiety has nothing to do with lack of social opportunities.


Are you sure they don't have something to do with her dad? What you describe in her are often direct results of an abusive parent.



> The funny thing is, he considers me to be emotionally abusive and manipulative. He never said this, but when we moved, I was packing, and I saw a page from his medical chart, and there was a comment by his doctor 'emotionally abused by wife'.


The thing about abusers is that they are MASTERS at twisting things around so that they are the victim; that way, everyone else OWES them something. 

Have you ever read Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft? I wish you would. It would give you some answers, and some solutions.



> Another thing he found manipulative was when he was travelling two weeks out of every month, and he'd come home, and right away go out with friends or to the movies for the entire day.


That's just ridiculous. I mean, really? What man so despises his wife that he can't even stand to be around her when he gets home from a trip? I'll tell you: an abusive one who considers his wife his property, not a human being.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

There is always a way. Only excuses hold you back.

One step at a time, focus your energy on one goal at a time.
But make those goals. For you. And your children. 

Ask questions, seek resources. Solve one piece of the puzzle at a time. Then move to the next one.

Getting a job evenings and weekends would be a good start, and give you some income to help with what you need to do.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks, Turnera, for sharing your experiences and being patient with me. I realise my ambivalence is frustrating. I will read the book you recommend. I just placed it on hold in the libarary.

It is true that after I vented about him, I do feel like defending him. On the other hand, I'm not afraid of him being upset, I speak my mind freely, and I do stand up to him. If he says something rude, I always call him on it, and tell him that I don't appreciate being spoken to this way. At least the kids see me speaking up. 

I am not afraid of approaching him. I've done so in the past. Only there are no results. He doesn't talk. He doesn't discuss. He practically never apologise. 

I might tell him, "H, I have been feeling unapreciated and lonely. I miss your company. I know you are stressed at work, so you probably dont' realise how BAD it has become for me, but it is BAD. I haven't actively worked on our marriage lately because I'm unhappy and defeated, but I'm willing to give it one more try. I'd like you to give it a try as well. What can I do so that you feel more loved?"

And he just wouldn't say anything. I'd wait for a couple of minutes, and ask, "H, are you thinking about what I said or you just aren't talking?"

He'd say that he's still thinking. In 5 minutes, which is awfully long for a pause in conversation, I will ask him again, and he'd say that he doesn't know what to say, and will go back to his computer. 

We've done this dozens of times in the past. He. just.won't. talk. He really likes to avoid things. He admits that if he is upset, he choses not to think about the issue and just avoid it. 

He doesn't fit a profile of a typical abuser, but he needs to be in control, bottles up his anger and is proud of never exploding, but is quite passive aggressive in his approaches. Though he's been a bit snappy lately--not even verbally, but with the way he looks at me. 

I think her anxiety didn't start with her Dad, but his insensitive behaviours towards her do make her more anxious. However if we were to separate, he'd still have his parenting duties, and this won't be helping either. She's been intense since she was born and had sensory issues. The other two are not like this at all. She is terrified of us separating, since H mentioned it to her after I spoke to him privately over a year ago. I have been keep assuring her that we won't. I didn't know what else to do. I did try the 'sometimes people who care about each other can't live together, but they still love you', but H didn't support this line of argument.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

deejov said:


> There is always a way. Only excuses hold you back.
> 
> One step at a time, focus your energy on one goal at a time.
> But make those goals. For you. And your children.
> ...


Thank you.

I work very seriously on my fiction. I do have an agent, and even though the first novel didn't sell, we both home my next novel (soon completed) will be more marketable. 

On one hand, I realise that I will never make lots money by writing the kind of fiction that I write, but if I abandon this passion of mine (and I'm told I'm quite good at it, so it is not just an empty dream) in favour of a part time job, I will run emotionally empty. So writing does take a lot of my free time--all of it, pretty much. If /when I get published, I will be able to hopefully earn some extra money by doing workshops, or editorial services. 

So I do have a goal. It is pretty long term, though. If I knew I could continue homeschool, the separation would be a no brainer for me.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

You have built your own prison and spent years reinforcing the walls.

So now every little bit of advice you get here has no hope of being useful for you as you simply reinforce any wall that might be breeched.

I`ll give it a shot anyway.

Don`t leave your husband at all.

Put the kids in school and get a job, open a bank account, get some friends.
Start living your life for you and your kids as if your husband were nothing but a roommate.

The changes he sees might be enough to wake him up.
If they aren`t you will magically find yourself in a position to get out of your marriage.

You won`t do this of course for numerous reasons that I`m sure you`ll come up with to strengthen those walls but I am speaking the truth.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

I appreciate your post. I don't have many reasons, but only one. I'm not going to put my kids into school where there are drugs. Period. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. 

Other than that, I've tried living as a roommate. He'd come home and we wouldn't be there. Meals would be done, but not on the table. I wouldn't call him to let him know where we were or when we'd be home. I didn't 'bothered' him with wanting to talk. 

I think he liked it. He enjoyed the space I was giving him. I did enjoy being on my own too, but it does get tiring. It is one thing when he is not there at all (when we were separated for 8 months due to his job), but when he is there but tuned out, I get resentful. 

Even if you might think that I'm defensive and not accepting advice, I still really appreciate you taking the time. Maybe hearing the same thing over and over again will help me long term. I'm obviously not ready for anything drastic at the moment, and I hope for some kind of a coping technique that will be like a miracle, but eventually there might be the last drop.





tacoma said:


> You have built your own prison and spent years reinforcing the walls.
> 
> So now every little bit of advice you get here has no hope of being useful for you as you simply reinforce any wall that might be breeched.
> 
> ...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

We all understand the desire to protect our children.

At one point in time, my son was thought to have ADHD. A teacher recommended testing. A pediatrician said "yup". And then she told me ... I can put him on drugs for the rest of his life, or he can learn how to learn and cope with life. He never took anything. He got some xtra help at school for a short while instead.

I thought that was such good advice. You can't shelter yourself or your kids from stress, life, drugs. But you can TEACH them how to cope with it, because you won't always be there to protect them. 

And that's what I take being a parent is about... teaching them the skills to cope with life as it is outside your door. So when they become an adult they can be independent.

Just a rambling thought I suppose.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

tuli said:


> I appreciate your post. I don't have many reasons, but only one. I'm not going to put my kids into school where there are drugs. Period. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


How are you going to keep drugs away from your kids once they are in the real world?
You are going to let them out into the real world sooner or later yes?

They won`t be confronted with anything in a school that they won`t be confronted with in the world.
In fact school is supposed to be training for the world.

I know it`s rather lousy training.




> Other than that, I've tried living as a roommate. .....
> I think he liked it. He enjoyed the space I was giving him.


But you weren`t really living like a roommate were you?

It`s been awhile since I`ve been a roommate so let me think back.
As a roommate I ...

Had to have a job to pay my half the bills.
Had my own priorities because I had no commitment as a roommate other than paying half the bills.
Had my own friends.
Went out on my own without my roommate.

Nope, I don`t think you acted like a roommate.

The ultimate point about getting a job and creating your own life whether you homeschool or not is that these things will indeed be noticed by your husband and cause him great anxiety which should force his hand to actually respect your needs.
If this doesn`t cause him great anxiety then the fact of the matter is he doesn`t give a damn about you.At the very least it would be objective evidence that he doesn`t respect you at all.

Either way you`ll be in a better position to deal with whatever reaction he has.



> Even if you might think that I'm defensive and not accepting advice, I still really appreciate you taking the time. Maybe hearing the same thing over and over again will help me long term. I'm obviously not ready for anything drastic at the moment, and I hope for some kind of a coping technique that will be like a miracle, but eventually there might be the last drop.


I do think your making excuses to remain in your terrible situation.
Nothing will change if you don`t change it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli said:


> If I knew I could continue homeschool, the separation would be a no brainer for me.


 Wow.

That pretty much says it all, don't you think?


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> Wow.
> 
> That pretty much says it all, don't you think?


Yep. 

But since homeschooling is a big deal for me and my kids, it is not as simple as putting the kids to school. 

I don't want to get into the whole homeschooling debate here, but I know that many think that homeschooled children are sheltered and don't live in the real world, and this is what I hear in some posts above. These sentiments are very common, and I hear them almost daily, but I simply don't agree. Mine are certainly not sheltered. They volunteer, they are out in the community, they take variety of classes (both for children and adults), the oldest is in guides and 4H and so on. We are hardly ever at home. They get to meet all kind of people of various ages, the oldest has mentors, they all have friends. Their world is quite real, and I'd argue more real than spending 6 hours a day with 36 peers, with a 20 minute recess during which drugs are pushed on 4th graders. Our local school is a caricature of the 'real world' and prepares them for nothing, neither academically or socially. 

I really appreciate the conversation, though. One thing at least that came out of it, even after just 2 days of 'talking', is that I pretty much decided to get a part time job. I think the mere fact that I got a job, even if it is only on weekends, will shake H a bit. 

Not sure if it will save me money, as I will need to hire a seater, but I think it will be good for the kids to spend time with a sitter (gotta find one, first, but I will), and DH will see that I'm serious about maintaining my qualifications. At least that's the plan for now. In this economy, with me being 10 years out of work force, and prior to that being in grad school and working various part time jobs (though in the field), my plan might not be super realistic, but I will revamp my resume and will start searching. I actually feel good about it.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

tuli said:


> I really appreciate the conversation, though. One thing at least that came out of it, even after just 2 days of 'talking', is that I pretty much decided to get a part time job. I think the mere fact that I got a job, even if it is only on weekends, will shake H a bit.


Most excellent!! 



> Not sure if it will save me money, as I will need to hire a seater, but I think it will be good for the kids to spend time with a sitter (gotta find one, first, but I will), and DH will see that I'm serious about maintaining my qualifications. At least that's the plan for now. In this economy, with me being 10 years out of work force, and prior to that being in grad school and working various part time jobs (though in the field), my plan might not be super realistic, but I will revamp my resume and will start searching. I actually feel good about it.


Any job will do, it`s not really about the money it`s about getting out there are moving forward.
Just knowing you`re looking for work could be enough to shake him up.

Let him pay for the sitter.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli said:


> I appreciate your post. I don't have many reasons, but only one. I'm not going to put my kids into school where there are drugs.


Oh, I get it. You're going to control their very lives to ensure no one YOU don't choose gets near them. Can I tell you what's going to happen? When they get around 12, 14, 16, they are going to start finding WAYS to get away from you. (maybe not the oldest) They'll start lying. They'll start hiding. They'll start sneaking. Because, instead of discussing it all with them and showing them what you expect and role-playing with them to be ok saying no and to think it through themselves so they'll LOGIC their way out of taking drugs, you're gonna try to hide them away from it all so they don't (you think) realize it's going on.

I know I won't convince you otherwise, but in my 52 years, of all the kids I've know who have gotten into drugs or gotten pregnant, probably 75% of them came from either homeschool homes or super-religious families. Who ALSO thought they could control their kids' access to all those evil influences.


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, it sounds like you've made some progress. That's great! I still think you are using homeschooling as a monumental excuse to make changes in your life that would benefit you AND your children.

Why not teach your children (since homeschooling is a great way to teach) that they should not use drugs? Then, when someone tries to sell them drugs, they will know to say "no." And then, don't give them money. Drugs aren't cheap. 

I understand homeschooling. One of my best friends is a dedicated homeschooler of 4 (soon to be 5) and we have talked about it a great deal. I also have other homeschooling friends. I think they would all agree that school is not an evil thing to be avoided; to them, homeschooling is better, not the only way. After all, ALL these homeschooling parents I know... went to school, and college, and some graduate school. So did you. And you survived.

Is it that you don't trust your children to say 'no' to drugs, or is it that you don't even want them to be around drugs at all? I can understand both positions, but if you teach them properly, they can both avoid being around them (stay close to the teacher during recess) and say 'no' (learn to say 'no'). Kids are VERY susceptible to "do the right thing" kind of talk. I know. I was in DARE when I was a kid (a police program that came to all the schools and taught us about drugs - my drug was opium (meaning, I had to do a report on it, not that I ever saw it LOL) and by the end of it we were all swearing on our lives we would never use drugs. Kids WANT to do the right thing. Terrorize your kids about drugs enough and they won't use them. )

These are just excuses. How do you even know that a judge wouldn't rule in your favor in a divorce and award you enough child support to continue with homeschooling? Your husband isn't the only lawyer out there.

If you're that afraid of the local school, once you get a divorce, just move someplace else.


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## anom15 (Oct 23, 2011)

I can see a bit of myself in your husband. I work all day around several people. When I get home I just want some peace and quiet, maybe read the news on my computer or watch a ballgame. I think the best thing you could do to try and reconnect with him is try to find time on the weekends or whenever his days off are to go out to a movie, or to dinner. Go see a local attraction that you would both like. If he is like me, he feels like he does not have much free time during the week, and there is time when he gets home from work that he would rather just chill and watch a game than have more conversations. I am not saying him ignoring you or not wanting to talk to you is right, I am just saying that if you dont get too upset about letting him have his space during the week and try to connect with him during his days off by doing activities, that might spark what you want during the regular week as you reconnect with eachother.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I didn't read all the post in this thread 

But no where in the posters original post did I see anything glaring that could not be worked out with some compromising.

it just seem like everyone jumped on the divorce band wagon a little early.

I agree work on your self, don't be so givving play a little hard to get.

home schooling is very difficult and in my opinion Most fail at it and end up regretting it. put thoese kids in school with the other kids so they gain social skills and learn how bad the real world can be. and how to navigate through it with all the problems. 

I know a few strict christian families that home schooled because of poor schools (drugs,violence) and their kids turned out messed up . couldn't do well in college and were socially backward around their peers.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

First thing, the homeschooling isn`t the point of this OP so maybe we should lay off it.

Second, I don`t think anyone is jumping on the divorce bandwagon.

The OP needs to make some noticeable change in her life in order to either get her husband on board with the problems she has or put her in a position of strength if indeed he fails to do so.


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## beebee (Oct 24, 2011)

Hi
I read your message and I am really in the same position as you, but the bottom line is you need the courage to leave him or divorce him, I have always put blocks in the way of leaving my H but basically its because i dont have the courage to do it.
My H doesnt have a particularly difficult job but he does enjoy it we have a son who is now 18 and has learnt all of his father's traits but doesnt realise it yet and it kills me that he is doing exactly the same and he swore hed never do the things his father does.
My H gets home from work and i generally make the evening meal if im not at home because i have 2 jobs then he'll get a takeaway for himself sometimes he'll ask our son if he wants anything, then the house shuts down for 1/ to 1 and a half hours so he can have a kip, then he sits at the computer all night talking to his friends from all over the world. Every now and again he'll notice that the vacing needs doing so he does that or the kitchen needs moping, but he'll never ever make a real meal or iron, clean the bathroom or change a bed ever period thats 20 years worth of silent refusal, yes i have tried to talk to him about this.

So what do i do - i do it myself and hate myself for doing it, i have 2 jobs and believe me i'd get more if i had the energy neither of us have had a payrise for 2 years because of the horrendous economy yet the bills keep coming in.
My son now works full time he comes in from work and there is a meal waiting for him, he is grateful but doesnt realise he is doing exactly the same as H. If there is nothing to eat he'll get a takeaway rather than cook something. Neither of them will attempt to make me anything to eat when i get in, but they will buy me a takeaway if they are getting one.
So T if you think you're children wont turn into either you or your H then you are sadly mistaken, ive turned into my mother who put up with a Victorian husband.

I used the excuse of our son was too young, that my H is so jealous of other men i could not go out without an argument, and i had to start telling him at least 2 weeks before i went out because he'd accuse me of not telling him that i was going out. He'd go out without even telling me or id have to be ready by a certain time otherwise he'd go without me. If i had of left him at that point in my life he would never have left me and my son alone. So i started putting blocks in my path why i couldnt leave - our son was too young, our son was taking exams, it would bankrupt both of us if i left, and the last stumbling block ive managed to put up, we got a dog but not just any old dog, one say that you could move around with you because if i did leave now our son would still come with me and we got the dog for his 18th. Its a Rotweiler. if i did leave then id have to rent and not many places round here would put up with a dog that size.

Where you maintain that the venue for education is one of the major reasons of staying put mine was that children need both parents especially when both parents really loves the children. At this moment in time your H may not have much input with your children but what about when they start playing football or tennis whatever they choose, they will need fetching and carrying, at this point your H might start coming into his own, when he feels needed rather than wanted but then again he may not, use his father as a point of reference, it sounds like your H is mirroring him.

As for your relationship with your H it may be that you are not just that compatible, sometimes people just aren't and as he was your first and childhood sweetheart then you have no comparison unfortunately or have you tried something different with him like fantasies for example or dressing up, even texting really sexy messages to him might work.

Also you say you have no friends and no relatives, i take it then you were an only child, however if you did have your parents still or siblings would you be telling them all of your problems or would you feel they were too close to you? 

I dont wish to sound harsh at all and that is probably how im coming across but honestly the only way to change your life is to move forward with it, and just because you love your husband are you in love with him or do you love the actual stability, it offers, can you try out some hobbies on an evening like aerobics, zumba, book reading clubs etc, your H will then have to look after the children and put them to bed and you get some me time. 

You are not over reacting to your situation quite the opposite but you are being made to feel as if you are especially by his silence and inability to communicate with you, but why should he, he's got the toffee and hal'enny.

Only you can decide what to do and when to do it and if the best way of coping is to talk to people on sites like this then so be it because you'll get plenty of support in the meantime.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi Tuli,

I'll say from the outset that I understand where you are coming from with homeschooling. My daughter was homeschooled, and became a professional musician by the time she was 16, and published two short works of fiction before beginning college (I write fiction as a hobby). She's incredibly confident, a social butterfly, but she had similar anxiety issues as a child. She's in college, in two honor fraternities, working towards a phd. My son is pretty average academically, but he's very popular in school now that he has transitioned to a good public school. We did have problem with drugs, but it was the parents of his friends. I nearly ended up in jail when he called me while spending the night with a friend, but my son was mature enough to pick better friends.

In our case, we transitioned our kids to private schools in middle school. My daughter tested at college level, so she had to go to an advanced private school only, but my son was able to go to a public school by advancing one grade higher.

I'll admit, in the first couple of sentences from the original post, I was going to suggest giving your husband a little time to decompress, but then your post just kept getting scarier and scarier. I'm really sorry for what you are going through.

I really think you are on the right track with training and preparing yourself for re-entering school. Also, is it possible to begin setting money aside to prepare for getting out? My wife and I had a friend in a similar situation. She began asking her husband to let her take classes for crafts and hobbies, but saved the money instead, and just spent time elsewhere. Also, she got cash back at the grocery every time to mask her savings.

The key is that the time away will begin to suggest that you are preparing yourself to be able to get by without a connection to him. He'll notice, though. The money will give you confidence and a bit of security, even if you decide to work on reconcialtion, if he changes.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

You seem to believe that living in denial is your best option. I totally disagree.

You also seem to have some misinformation about therapy (they only see you every week).

You seem so afraid of truly confronting your problems for fear it will be too hard for you. So instead you are living a miserable existence (which, by the way, you are modeling for your kids). How is that healthy or productive?

I sense you need to be in control. Controlling your kids, controlling their environment, and maybe even controlling your husband. You even seem to need to control your sexual relationship. It seems like you are trying to have such a tight grip on everything and trying to control every outcome, beyond what is healthy, I think. 

The other thing you should know is that often kids who have emotional issues do so because of the FAMILY dynamic. It's probably nice to put the blame squarely on your husband, but you are part of the family system and you are part of the equation.

Please find a psychologist (not just any therapist) who will work with you on your issues. You can't control your husband, or your children, but you CAN take control of your problems and your life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

fwiw, I have no problem at all with homeschooling; not trying to criticize you for that. (although I think that if your reason really is to protect them from drugs, that's...interesting).

I just want to make sure you are being honest with yourself and knowing the real reasons for the decisions you make. Your story sounds like that of a possible abuse victim and, if that is true, you need to face that head on.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

DesperateHouseWife said:


> We almost the same amount of time married. Hubby behaves the sameway. I just got into this website, because I'm having my own issues. Good luck to you & I guess I'm the worst to advice,but just so you know your not the only one married to this type of men.


Good luck to you too. I hope you work it out, one way or another.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

anom15 said:


> I can see a bit of myself in your husband. I work all day around several people. When I get home I just want some peace and quiet, maybe read the news on my computer or watch a ballgame. I think the best thing you could do to try and reconnect with him is try to find time on the weekends or whenever his days off are to go out to a movie, or to dinner. Go see a local attraction that you would both like. If he is like me, he feels like he does not have much free time during the week, and there is time when he gets home from work that he would rather just chill and watch a game than have more conversations. I am not saying him ignoring you or not wanting to talk to you is right, I am just saying that if you dont get too upset about letting him have his space during the week and try to connect with him during his days off by doing activities, that might spark what you want during the regular week as you reconnect with eachother.


Thanks. I do notice that things get worse when he is under pressure at work. He goes on autopilot, and his autopilot is very patriachal. Intellectually he is aware that he is wrong, and he said so himself, but when he is exhausted, that's he default. 

Some times I deal pretty well with his stress, but some times, when I'm stressed myself, I start wallowing in self pity. 

Today he came home from work at 9pm, and said the entire week will be like this. Yet I could see he tried to connect with the kids for a few minutes, and talked to me for a few minutes. I know it took effort from him, so he is trying.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

tacoma said:


> First thing, the homeschooling isn`t the point of this OP so maybe we should lay off it.


Second, I don`t think anyone is jumping on the divorce bandwagon.

Thanks. I don't understand why several here are focusing on 'teach your child to say no to drugs'. That's not the point. 

The quality of our public schools here is not my only reason to homeschool. I educated myself well on the topic, and I am convinced that at this time homeschooling is the best option for my children. I'm not saying that it will always be, or that it is right for everyone, but the quality of our public schools plus the personalities and learning styles of my children make homeschooling an option of which I'm very sure and don't wish to debate. 

I get it that the option is not popular. It is the easiest to suggest that an unpopular life choice should be the first to go in a challenging marital situation. 



> The OP needs to make some noticeable change in her life in order to either get her husband on board with the problems she has or put her in a position of strength if indeed he fails to do so.


[/QUOTE]


I'm working on this. I periodically go through periods when I feel the situation will never improve and these are my low moments. This is also when I decided to post here and seek feedback.

Most of the time, I feel somewhat better about our marriage, though not ecstatic. However, there are a lot of things that go for H. He is loyal, he doesn't abuse any substances, he is very generous with money (both to me and others), and he trusts me implicitely about educational choices and is proud of the way our children are educated and raised. Well, that's all I can think of right now, so maybe it isn't much.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you for your post. I do worry about my son being like H, but I also think that H and I are a very poor match. So being like H is not the worst thing in the world, but it is pretty bad when he is matched with someone like me. 

I think H really needs a mommy-wife. He wants to be mothered. I grew up without a father, I'd probably do better if I too was babied a bit. I don't mean in terms of being totally taken care of, but in terms of the balance in the dynamics. And when we first met and I was 17, and him being a decade older, I felt secure and protected. And then the dynamics changed. We both got educated, achieved graduate degrees, grew up, became more equal. I'm not the same naive and insecure girl, and he probably doesn't feel as as manly as he used to (with me as a young girl). 

I think that if I had siblings or parents, or aunts / uncles, I'd have more of a security net. Not that I'd need to share with them, but I'd know that if I decided to leave H, they'd support me in my decision. Even something like an occasional baby sitting by a relative, would be helpful. But of course many with relatives don't have this kind of support either, so it is not really the point. 

Ironically, H's brother told me several times that H is a handful to live with, and gave their mother grief, and that I'm an angel for putting up with him. He also said that he'd support my decision to leave me (we had this conversation years ago, yeah, it has been a rocky marriage). This is his brother who is very close with H, and they are good friends, but also butt heads. I'm not comfortable anymore with discussing this with my brother in law, or relying on his support, but I'm just saying this to illustrate that even if his loving brother thinks that H is horrible to live with, there's some truth to it. 

Interestingly, his brother is very different from H, and treats his wife very well. He is a thoughtful, considerate, more understanding, and talks a lot. So I wonder how much of it is personality, vs. modelling after a parent. Thankfully my son is much more similar to his uncle, personality wise, than H. 




beebee said:


> Hi
> I read your message and I am really in the same position as you, but the bottom line is you need the courage to leave him or divorce him, I have always put blocks in the way of leaving my H but basically its because i dont have the courage to do it.
> My H doesnt have a particularly difficult job but he does enjoy it we have a son who is now 18 and has learnt all of his father's traits but doesnt realise it yet and it kills me that he is doing exactly the same and he swore hed never do the things his father does.
> My H gets home from work and i generally make the evening meal if im not at home because i have 2 jobs then he'll get a takeaway for himself sometimes he'll ask our son if he wants anything, then the house shuts down for 1/ to 1 and a half hours so he can have a kip, then he sits at the computer all night talking to his friends from all over the world. Every now and again he'll notice that the vacing needs doing so he does that or the kitchen needs moping, but he'll never ever make a real meal or iron, clean the bathroom or change a bed ever period thats 20 years worth of silent refusal, yes i have tried to talk to him about this.
> ...


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Thank you! 

I really like your money saving tips. This would totally work, H would never notice. I'd feel bad about lying to him (i.e. telling him about taking a course, and then just keeping the money), but cashbacks at groceries is a neat strategy.

H is actually quite generous with money and practically never questions my spendings. Right now we are going through a tighter patch, as we had unexpected roof repairs, so we are both more careful with spending. He doesn't 'give' me money, we have a joint account and I use it as needed. He's never questioned me or criticised me, even if I splurged on myself of the kids and felt a bit guilty myself. So I guess this is a positive. 

I looked at job listing yesterday and got a bit discouraged, but then realised that the idea I had several years ago can actually work. I'm a pretty good editor (don't laugh, I'm not watching myself while posting here) and I actually do get clients from time to time who pay for editing gigs. I can focus on this more, get some sort of a certification, (will look into it) and can start looking for gigs more aggressively. Up until now clients found me, based on word of mouth, but I'm sure I can market myself as well. This is also something that I love doing, and can do from home. 



Halien said:


> Hi Tuli,
> 
> I'll say from the outset that I understand where you are coming from with homeschooling. My daughter was homeschooled, and became a professional musician by the time she was 16, and published two short works of fiction before beginning college (I write fiction as a hobby). She's incredibly confident, a social butterfly, but she had similar anxiety issues as a child. She's in college, in two honor fraternities, working towards a phd. My son is pretty average academically, but he's very popular in school now that he has transitioned to a good public school. We did have problem with drugs, but it was the parents of his friends. I nearly ended up in jail when he called me while spending the night with a friend, but my son was mature enough to pick better friends.
> 
> ...


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Laurae1967 said:


> You seem to believe that living in denial is your best option. I totally disagree.



I agree that this is not a good option long term. But i'm a bit too overwhelmed right not to dig deep. I know my limits. 



> You also seem to have some misinformation about therapy (they only see you every week).



I've tried therapy, have friends who are in therapy, and spent 6 months visiting one therapist after another with my daughter--it was difficult to find good rapport with them. If I had plenty of free time, I'd be willing to do a similar search for myself, but it is not a process I feel like going through now. 

I don't think therapy will be as beneficial for me. I'm pretty self aware, and also volunteered for many years as a distress center counselor, peer counselor while I was in grad school, and even though I don't have a specialised training (other than two generalised degrees in psych), many of my jobs while I was in grad school involved counselling duties. I feel I do need someone to listen to me, and this board is as good as a therapist. 




> You seem so afraid of truly confronting your problems for fear it will be too hard for you. So instead you are living a miserable existence (which, by the way, you are modeling for your kids). How is that healthy or productive?


I've been thinking about it for some time. I find that even though I'm not 'happy' with my marriage, I'm plesantly content in other areas of my life. So generally I'm not miserable. I enjoy spending time with my kids and learning with them, I love the fact that I have time for my creativity, I find joy in little things around me. 

I'm not fulfilled as a wife, and I do feel that H and I are a poor match. I go through periods when I feel that I deserve better, that I miss being cherished, that I really need a husband who'd enjoy spending time with me. 

So I'm conflicted, that's for sure. On the other hand, I know that I wouldn't be happy as a woman / person if I had to put my kids in public school and work a job I didn't love. Before kids I worked jobs that I loved, but that were incredibly consuming ans stressful (working with the homeless and the mentall ill). If I were to work these jobs again, I wouldn't have any emotional / mental reserves for my kids. Jobs that are less emotionally demanding, that I'm qualifed for, such as let's say, office work, would kill me for other reasons. 



> I sense you need to be in control. Controlling your kids, controlling their environment, and maybe even controlling your husband. You even seem to need to control your sexual relationship. It seems like you are trying to have such a tight grip on everything and trying to control every outcome, beyond what is healthy, I think.


Everybody need some degree of control over their lives. However I'm not getting where you see that I need to control my children or my husband. Tight grip? I'm a pretty laid back person, and everyone who knows me will agree. If you think that homeschoolign is about 'control', we are coming from very different perspectives, and nothing that I say here will change your mind. That's okay. 




> The other thing you should know is that often kids who have emotional issues do so because of the FAMILY dynamic. It's probably nice to put the blame squarely on your husband, but you are part of the family system and you are part of the equation.


I'm not blameless, I know that. I never said I was. However, I'm quite sure that my daughter's anxiety is not caused by our family dynamics. 




> Please find a psychologist (not just any therapist) who will work with you on your issues. You can't control your husband, or your children, but you CAN take control of your problems and your life.


[/QUOTE]

This is what I'm attempting to do, but I think I can do it without a psychologist at this point.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> fwiw, I have no problem at all with homeschooling; not trying to criticize you for that. (although I think that if your reason really is to protect them from drugs, that's...interesting).
> 
> I just want to make sure you are being honest with yourself and knowing the real reasons for the decisions you make. Your story sounds like that of a possible abuse victim and, if that is true, you need to face that head on.


Thanks. I have more reasons that 'to protect them from drugs'. I can't protect them, I can only guide them. What I was trying to say that a school where 3rd graders are exposed to drug activities is a poor learning environment, among other things. My other reasons to homeschool are numerous, and I came to them after years of research and careful thinking. 

Sometimes I think that H is subtly abusice. Sometimes I think that that's an exaggeration, he is an average man with average issues, who struggles to be a better husband but doesn't always succeed, and I'm an average woman with my own issues, and my own stress, and my own struggles. Our communication pattern is terrible, exacerbated by the fact that he doesn't talk and by the fact that I don't handle his not talking well. 

I did order the book from the library and will read it soon.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

Your marriage will not survive if you continue to put it further down the priority list. Your marriage needs to be your # 1 priority, to both yourself and your husband. If it is not, you need to stop making excuses and evaluate your situation. 

It is much healthier to raise children whos parents are in true love and put their marriages first. Most of those children grow up with great moral character and sound mind. Problems within the family unit will cause much greater hurt for your children than any drugs will cause.

Self-esteem issues, stemming from abuse within the parents' marriage, will follow your children wherever they go. You and your husband are teaching your children what to expect from their husbands/wives... and what should be expected of them.

Do you want your sons to treat their wives the way your husband treats you? Do you want your daughters to constantly be turning the other cheek when their husbands do not treat them with respect and love? 

How sad for you and your children to be in a loveless household. You say you love him but it sounds like you question it every day. Your children sense it, and it probably fills them with sadness as well.

I think you guys need to make the marriage NUMBER ONE and seek counseling. If you do not, your marriage is guaranteed to fail, and you will have even less in the end as your children will not respect you. It is wonderful to raise children in a house filled with mutual love and respect between the parents -- I think that you should make that your # 1 goal. 

Perhaps your H needs to find a new job with school hours, and you need to seek a baby sitter who can handle your child(ren) with anxiety issues. You NEED to do this for the sake of yourself, your marriage, and ESPECIALLY your children.


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## omega (Aug 2, 2011)

I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I wasn't saying that homeschooling is bad, or that a school with drugs is a great environment. What I was saying is that sometimes, we SHOULDN'T do what's best for the children's education, in order to do what's best for the family as a whole.

Let me put it this way:

If you could only afford $10/week for food, would you buy organic local everything, or about 1 meal's worth of food for the week, or would you buy 3 pounds of white rice, 3 pounds of vegetables in season, and a few pounds of flour, for a week's worth of food?

By choosing the highest quality option, you don't cover all your needs. You only cover that one meal. By choosing a lower quality option, even if this goes against your principles, you don't starve.

If homeschooling is this amazing, awesome education for your kids, but they are witnessing your husband abuse you, and you are living with abuse every day, they (and you) are NOT actually okay.

Homeschooling is a luxury, and there are ways to improve the quality of a school education - THAT was my point. But if you insist on it, there's nothing else I can say. All your posts say pretty much the same thing, so it's basically an argument. 

You asked for advice, you rejected the advice. I don't have anything else to offer. Good luck to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

tuli, if you're a good editor, get yourself to guru.com today! You can make a TON of money, from home, doing writing and editing. I've made thousands there, when I worked at it (read: when I have any spare time, as I work full time as a writer). Well worth the fees they charge. It's the best site I know for hooking up writers (and other types) with jobs.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

omega said:


> I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I wasn't saying that homeschooling is bad, or that a school with drugs is a great environment. What I was saying is that sometimes, we SHOULDN'T do what's best for the children's education, in order to do what's best for the family as a whole.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> ...


That's what I was trying to say, too.

In a perfect world, we'd all be able to stay home and spend 24/7 with our kids and ensure they get everything we want them to have. But, if we marry someone we determine is harmful to us, detrimental to the marriage and possibly guiding our kids down the wrong path, then we have to make not-so-fun decisions on what we keep and what he give up.

My DD21 asked me many times to leave my husband, but I didn't, for many reasons. But I'm 95% sure that, if I had, she'd have been much better off now. She's a great kid (no drinking, drugs, and still a virgin), but if I would have shown her the courage to leave a bad situation, she would have just taken that courage on herself and just blossomed.

We're just asking you to take a good hard look at what you're actually saying - if he does indeed turn out to be abusive, after you read more about it and hopefully ask your therapist to verify, are you so sure that keeping your kids at home to homeschool is WORTH the rest of the childhood you are endowing them with?

And remember this: A woman who stays in an abusive situation loses herself and loses the ability to protect others she's responsible for. (your kids)

She starts to deteriorate mentally - that's the whole thing about abuse: it is one 'give in' at a time. You give in on this to keep the peace, despite feeling sad. You give in on that cos he saw you give in on the other thing, so he pushed for this one; again, you say nothing. It'll just be this one thing. But then it's another. And another. And each time you 'give in,' you become a little less of a person, until you're nothing more than a shell of your former self. That's why most abuse victims never leave their abuser - they have become SO low, they lose ALL faith in themselves, they come to believe they are worthless and no other man would take them. They lose hope, tuli. They lose self-worth. They believe the BS. They KNOW, after 5 or 10or 20 years, that it was all their fault, that their husbands did them a FAVOR by not kicking them out as they are so worthless. They wouldn't DARE speak up or ask for anything from their husbands. They don't deserve it.

Of course, that woman sounds ridiculous, from your viewpoint. You still feel worthy and full of life. It's those little 'give ins' that take their toll. So if you think you can make it 14 more years, and THEN leave him? Probably won't happen; if you survive that long.

Assuming he's truly abusive, of course. Please get a professional opinion, not just ours.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

omega said:


> I think you misunderstood the point of my post. I wasn't saying that homeschooling is bad, or that a school with drugs is a great environment. What I was saying is that sometimes, we SHOULDN'T do what's best for the children's education, in order to do what's best for the family as a whole.
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> ...


I really get this analogy, I do. If I was certain that he was abusive, my decision would be easier.

Right now I wonder whether he is abusive, or we are just a poor match, both stressed out, different personalities / communicational styles. We have such drastically different needs--he wants to be left alone, I want his company. This is hard. He never gets enough time to be alone anymore, and I don't get to have his company, but this is the reality of many.


The kids don't witness much, that's another issue. We are civil to each other, he doesn't yell or get angry, and neither do I. If he says something mean (and who doesn't from time to time? I'm not guilt free here either), I stand up to him. If I say something mean, I apologise. The kids witness us maybe not being happy all the time, but no one is immune from that. We do have good family times when we take trips together. 

This is why I'm on the fence.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> tuli, if you're a good editor, get yourself to guru.com today! You can make a TON of money, from home, doing writing and editing. I've made thousands there, when I worked at it (read: when I have any spare time, as I work full time as a writer). Well worth the fees they charge. It's the best site I know for hooking up writers (and other types) with jobs.


Thanks for the tip! I need to brush up on my skills a bit. I didn't grow up speaking English, so while I can be very good with many things, and my grammar / punctuation are very strong, and people rave about my content editing, I feel a bit self conscious presenting myself officially as an editor. 

I will reread my Elements of Style and brush up on the little things that I've forgotten, and I will feel more confident in my skills. Those who I've edited before, they all knew that English wasn't my native tongue, but they still wanted me and paid well for what I had to offer. But on the other hand I might miss something as obvious to native speakers, as the 'the vs. a' articles.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Thanks, turnera. I'm listening and digesting.



turnera said:


> That's what I was trying to say, too.
> 
> In a perfect world, we'd all be able to stay home and spend 24/7 with our kids and ensure they get everything we want them to have. But, if we marry someone we determine is harmful to us, detrimental to the marriage and possibly guiding our kids down the wrong path, then we have to make not-so-fun decisions on what we keep and what he give up.
> 
> ...


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

Lydia: the problem is that a divorce won't magially make problems with the family unit disappear. H will still be their father. He will still see them. We will still need to communicate, as parents. It will be only worse--because his presence will be more negative. And if he wouldn't want to see them, that will hurt them as well. 

A lot of H's self worth is derived from being a Provider. He takes this very seriously. He needs to be needed in that capacity. In his twisted way he lives for is family. He does say, that he is like a cave man, who brings a dead animal home, all proud and manly, and that he can't do much else, because he is not good at anything else. 

So divorce is likely to exacerbate our issues as parents. This is what I started to realise since I posted here, and started thinking about possible outcomes in more detail. 

I'm not happy now, but I don't see myself being happy divorced either, because the kids are in the equation. I would't be able to just move cross country and live in my own little world.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think what's really missing is your boundaries. Have you read Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend? It's a real eye opener.


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## tuli (Oct 23, 2011)

turnera said:


> I think what's really missing is your boundaries. Have you read Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud and Townsend? It's a real eye opener.


No, but I will. Thanks.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

I have no problem with homeschooling if it is for the right reasons. Keeping your kids from drugs seems like an overly-protective reason to do it. If your kids can't avoid harmful things on their own, based on values they have been taught, controlling their environment won't help them in the long run.

What I find truly interesting is that you are in a highly dysfunctional family system and yet you don't want to "dig too deep". That is alarming to me. This is a really negative coping method that you are passing along to your kids - that confronting problems and dealing with them is too scary to handle. 

Life is messy. Life has many perils and pitfalls. If you think putting on blinders is the best way to deal with that, then you aren't truly living a full life and your kids see this.

I think it is very difficult, if not impossible, for people with dysfunctional family systems to break out of it without professional help. Your FOO issues and your husband's FOO issues have come together to create your current family dynamic. You need to understand where you came from and why you developed the behaviors you have and how you can break free of the unhealthy ones.

You say you are self-aware, but people who are self-aware have the ability to dig deep and face their past so they can have a better future. You are unwilling to do this. You focus on what your H is doing to make things bad, but don't focus on what YOU are doing. 

You can't run away from your pain. It's there all the time, in the background, driving your behaviors in ways you probably don't understand. I hope you can find the strenght to deal with it as some point, for your sake as well as for the sake of your children.


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