# Sexual Moratorium



## Bluemoon1

Inspired by FNG and reading Dr Glovers book, I have decided to instigate a sexual moratorium got about 3 months, reading the book and searching around the net, I ticked most of the boxes.

Although we had what I consider to be "better Sex" the other night, I still got the distinct impression she was doing it under suffrage (the non sexual aggression kind of gave it away :scratchhead 

I have told her, and she took it well, I guess she is thinking I won't be able to keep it up and I will soon be back bargaining and all the other needy behaviour. I actually told her straight why i was doing it and what I hoped to gain, like it was not in the vain hope of rekindling out sex life but it was all about me, I am busy cleaning up my side of the street (thanks again to FNG for that) I have a busy few months ahead of me, another 25 lb to lose, get fit at the gym, stop smoking, some more professional qualifications, interview for a very prestigious professional association, none of which I have been that focused on of late. She did say does it mean she can be affectionate with me without the fear it will escalate! I will wait and see for that one

Would love to hear if anyone else has done this and any tops and advice


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## LovesHerMan

I'm sure the guys will be along soon to advise you, but here is my $.02.

Trying2figureitout used this approach and it didn't work. His wife was only too happy to have him stop pestering her for sex.

I think that a better method would be Tall Average Guy's--stop doing things that she likes. Stop saying I love you, stop helping around the house, stop spending quality time with her. Whatever her emotional needs are, stop meeting them.

The idea is to get her to feel what it is like to not have needs met in your marriage. Don't be a jerk about it, but tend to your own interests without worrying about what she thinks.

However, it can't hurt to be the best man you can be. Confident, sure of yourself, and attractive to women. Show her what she has to lose.


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## Bluemoon1

lovesherman said:


> I'm sure the guys will be along soon to advise you, but here is my $.02.
> 
> Trying2figureitout used this approach and it didn't work. His wife was only too happy to have him stop pestering her for sex.
> 
> I think that a better method would be Tall Average Guy's--stop doing things that she likes. Stop saying I love you, stop helping around the house, stop spending quality time with her. Whatever her emotional needs are, stop meeting them.
> 
> The idea is to get her to feel what it is like to not have needs met in your marriage. Don't be a jerk about it, but tend to your own interests without worrying about what she thinks.
> 
> However, it can't hurt to be the best man you can be. Confident, sure of yourself, and attractive to women. Show her what she has to lose.


I am doing most of that as well :smthumbup: all except helping around the house, in fact I have upped my input on this front, but with a difference, prior to this I was seeking approval all the time, now I just get on with things if she does not like the way I do it, tough, it's also quite liberating for me to do things on my own terms not in terms of will she be happy and give me sex or reject me, it was the last sex we had a couple of days ago that convinced me that this has to stop, I have a life waiting for me outside all of this


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## Tall Average Guy

lovesherman said:


> I'm sure the guys will be along soon to advise you, but here is my $.02.
> 
> Trying2figureitout used this approach and it didn't work. His wife was only too happy to have him stop pestering her for sex.
> 
> I think that a better method would be Tall Average Guy's--stop doing things that she likes. Stop saying I love you, stop helping around the house, stop spending quality time with her. Whatever her emotional needs are, stop meeting them.
> 
> The idea is to get her to feel what it is like to not have needs met in your marriage. Don't be a jerk about it, but tend to your own interests without worrying about what she thinks.
> 
> However, it can't hurt to be the best man you can be. Confident, sure of yourself, and attractive to women. Show her what she has to lose.


It is flattering to be noted, so I will jump in on some thoughts;

1. Be upbeat and cheerful around her, and do fun things, but not directed toward her. By that, I mean show her what she is missing - fun with a great guy. She likely fell for you in part because you were fun to be around, so show her that you can still be that guy.

2. Work on yourself. She is not interested in the job, so you need to do it. If she asks why, you need to tell her just that - don't be passive aggressive or mean, but let her know that since she is not up to the job, you need to take care of it.

3. I do think it works better without the moritorium. She needs to be able to step up to meet your needs if she wants to. Unfortunately, the moritorium prevents that. So you either need to rethink the moritorium, or consider what other things you need from her, such as initiating other intimacy (cuddling on the couch), saying ILY first, or other things to show interest.


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## Toffer

Blue,

Good luck! I followed Tall's advice and my wife noticed about a week and a half into it.

Unfortunately, it's gone back to where it was


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## Tall Average Guy

Toffer said:


> Blue,
> 
> Good luck! I followed Tall's advice and my wife noticed about a week and a half into it.
> 
> Unfortunately, it's gone back to where it was


So what are you doing in response?


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## Bluemoon1

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is flattering to be noted, so I will jump in on some thoughts;
> 
> 1. Be upbeat and cheerful around her, and do fun things, but not directed toward her. By that, I mean show her what she is missing - fun with a great guy. She likely fell for you in part because you were fun to be around, so show her that you can still be that guy.
> 
> 2. Work on yourself. She is not interested in the job, so you need to do it. If she asks why, you need to tell her just that - don't be passive aggressive or mean, but let her know that since she is not up to the job, you need to take care of it.
> 
> 3. I do think it works better without the moritorium. She needs to be able to step up to meet your needs if she wants to. Unfortunately, the moritorium prevents that. So you either need to rethink the moritorium, or consider what other things you need from her, such as initiating other intimacy (cuddling on the couch), saying ILY first, or other things to show interest.


I hesitated about the moratorium but even this evening after telling her things seem to have thawed out a little, which puts me at more ease no tension if you no what i mean. 

The only real concern I have is if she decides that she is quite happy with the arrangement but I did say to her that I was not prepared to carry on with the way things were, and if they continued we would have to talk about the future of the marriage. It's not just the sex issue it's a respect one as well and the way I have allowed her to assume the role of dominance in the relationship, that sometimes I was not even allowed to touch her without her recoiling away from me, which actually fills me with a lot of shame that here I am 6'3 well built not bad looking but behaving like a lost puppy


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## okeydokie

i have takeen the TAG approach going on about a year now. not much has changed except i am at peace, not near as angry as i used to be. she can pound salt


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## FormerNiceGuy

Bluemoon1 said:


> Inspired by FNG and reading Dr Glovers book, I have decided to instigate a sexual moratorium got about 3 months, reading the book and searching around the net, I ticked most of the boxes.
> 
> Although we had what I consider to be "better Sex" the other night, I still got the distinct impression she was doing it under suffrage (the non sexual aggression kind of gave it away :scratchhead
> 
> I have told her, and she took it well, I guess she is thinking I won't be able to keep it up and I will soon be back bargaining and all the other needy behaviour. I actually told her straight why i was doing it and what I hoped to gain, like it was not in the vain hope of rekindling out sex life but it was all about me, I am busy cleaning up my side of the street (thanks again to FNG for that) I have a busy few months ahead of me, another 25 lb to lose, get fit at the gym, stop smoking, some more professional qualifications, interview for a very prestigious professional association, none of which I have been that focused on of late. She did say does it mean she can be affectionate with me without the fear it will escalate! I will wait and see for that one
> 
> Would love to hear if anyone else has done this and any tops and advice


I applaud this step. I think you will learn a lot about yourself, your wife and your relationship.

1. I strongly disagree with any advice that implies gaming or anything less than total honesty with your wife. This process is for you to improve yourself and whether you repair your sex life with your wife or not, you are going to be a more self-confident, more accomplished and fit guy at the end of 90 days. Hell, quitting smoking is worth the price of admission!

2. Your needs are secondary in the relationship and this is at the root of your problem. The reason you need the sex off the table is because many of us tailor our behavior towards our SO's with the hope of getting a few sexual crumbs from time to time. With no possibility of sex, you should feel free to make your non-sexual needs a priority. This is about adult boundaries.

3. I would consider a masturbation/porn moratorium as well. I think you will find extra drive without that release. The porn part is a separate issue, but I personally think it is a bad habit. I am porn/masturbation free since January and the urges are all but gone.

4. Accept the affection with grace and return it if and as you desire. If you aren't in the mood for a hug, don't give one and don't care if it upsets your wife. Just smile and shrug it off. If you would rather work out than snuggle, work out. Remember, you must be honest with yourself and may not allow yourself to punish her - this is about what you want to do to better yourself.

5. I continue to work hard to understand where sexual urges end and anxiety reduction begins. The dopamine fix feels good when you are stressed. Right now, I am erring on the side of assuming it is stress. 

6. Your wife will likely turn up the heat on you shortly. You really need to honor your commitment to yourself and turn her down lovingly. I would even thank her for the compliment and reiterate how important this process is to you and your ability to be a good husband. Flirt with her in return and enjoy the energy, but live like a born again virgin for 90 days.

Consciously or unconsciously, your wife believes that you are weak and led by your sexual desires. Judging strictly from past behavior, it might appear that she is correct.

For many of us, sex is a way to get reassurance that we are OK as people and that the relationship is OK. 

When you understand that you are OK without the sex and can actually prosper and be successful without it or the relationship, only then will you be in a position to have a healthy and intimate relationship.

I would table the thoughts about what happens if she doesn't respond. It doesn't matter right now, you have many more important tasks to do for you.

Keep us posted!


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## FormerNiceGuy

okeydokie said:


> i have takeen the TAG approach going on about a year now. not much has changed except i am at peace, not near as angry as i used to be. she can pound salt



How angry were you before? You still sound pretty angry to me....just sayin.....


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## lenzi

You shouldn't have told your wife you are doing a sexual moratorium thing.

Just backed off and done it.

Now it just seems like you're playing some sort of game and being hard to get and she's going to see it as you acting childish and well, she's not wrong, but at least if you kept it to yourself she wouldn't have KNOWN you are resorting to playing these sorts of games in an attempt to change the way she acts towards you.

Even if it worked it wouldn't last. It's not real.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tall Average Guy said:


> It is flattering to be noted, so I will jump in on some thoughts;
> 
> 1. Be upbeat and cheerful around her, and do fun things, but not directed toward her. By that, I mean show her what she is missing - fun with a great guy. She likely fell for you in part because you were fun to be around, so show her that you can still be that guy.
> 
> 2. Work on yourself. She is not interested in the job, so you need to do it. If she asks why, you need to tell her just that - don't be passive aggressive or mean, but let her know that since she is not up to the job, you need to take care of it.
> 
> 3. I do think it works better without the moritorium. She needs to be able to step up to meet your needs if she wants to. Unfortunately, the moritorium prevents that. So you either need to rethink the moritorium, or consider what other things you need from her, such as initiating other intimacy (cuddling on the couch), saying ILY first, or other things to show interest.


TAG:

I think there are several things wrong with this approach.

Your Paragraph 1 is advocating that BM1 "act" a certain way to get a certain response. This is a recipe for disaster and exactly what got him in this mess in the first place. Nice guys try to guess what will please women and then act accordingly - it is an act, not the real deal and everybody senses a fake. What if he doesn't feel fun? Maybe he is pissed off and wants to go work out. Maybe he is tired. This is about authenticity - the good, the bad and the ugly.

If the wife loves him, she accepts all of him. The "real" guy is what she fell in love with in the first place. This was a guy who didn't care much or maybe even at all about pleasing her. 

If she doesn't respond to the real person, we have a different problem, but at least we have clarity. Who wants to be married to someone who doesn't love the essence of who they are? BM1 needs to get himself to the place where he says: "Hi honey, this is the road I am heading down, care to join me?" He is going down the road with or without his wife.

Paragraph 2. It is not her job to work on him. He is the only person in the world who is responsible for him. She can support him and encourage him, but only he is responsible for his actions. She can slap him upside the head for acting like a puppy dog - she has in fact by not having sex with him (passive aggressive crap, but action nonetheless).

Paragraph 3. He can be intimate in so many ways without being physical or saying I love you. Actions speak louder than words. Once he starts doing all of these wonderful things for himself, he will not be able to help himself but to give away his excess good mojo, and he will have tons of it. He will be like the energizer bunny and will make her breakfast because he can and he enjoys being productive. No strings attached and she will melt because he is doing it out of love and respect and not for a piece of ass.


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## MEM2020

I think the moratorium is a serious mistake. That said:
- blue needs to fully gain control of his emotions and learn not to speak when he is in a bad place. By emotional control I mean a few core things:
1. Fix his lifestyle issues and get enough sleep 
2. Write down who he wants to be and how he wants to handle situations he has historically botched
3. Define his own standards as the start and end of how he will evaluate himself. He should consider her input. And assess it fairly. And when a critique is valid his response should be simple: thank you for the helpful feedback. This is how I will handle that going forward. And when her feedback is inactivate or self serving he should say he disagrees and disregard it. If she asks for an explanation he should provide it and then shut up. His standards are not for her to debate.
4. Clearly convey his boundaries to her. One boundary needs to be that I she speaks to him disrespectfully or snaps at him during a sexual encounter, the encounter ends right there

He is the author of his part of this. Even so, taking sex off the table implies that he is solely at fault for the current state of the marriage. It is a very dangerous message to send.

Still - he should not bring it up for a month - and should focus on a combo of more upbeat behavior, more planning of their life and enforcement of his boundaries.





QUOTE=FormerNiceGuy;670787]TAG:

I think there are several things wrong with this approach.

Your Paragraph 1 is advocating that BM1 "act" a certain way to get a certain response. This is a recipe for disaster and exactly what got him in this mess in the first place. Nice guys try to guess what will please women and then act accordingly - it is an act, not the real deal and everybody senses a fake. What if he doesn't feel fun? Maybe he is pissed off and wants to go work out. Maybe he is tired. This is about authenticity - the good, the bad and the ugly.

If the wife loves him, she accepts all of him. The "real" guy is what she fell in love with in the first place. This was a guy who didn't care much or maybe even at all about pleasing her. 

If she doesn't respond to the real person, we have a different problem, but at least we have clarity. Who wants to be married to someone who doesn't love the essence of who they are? BM1 needs to get himself to the place where he says: "Hi honey, this is the road I am heading down, care to join me?" He is going down the road with or without his wife.

Paragraph 2. It is not her job to work on him. He is the only person in the world who is responsible for him. She can support him and encourage him, but only he is responsible for his actions. She can slap him upside the head for acting like a puppy dog - she has in fact by not having sex with him (passive aggressive crap, but action nonetheless).

Paragraph 3. He can be intimate in so many ways without being physical or saying I love you. Actions speak louder than words. Once he starts doing all of these wonderful things for himself, he will not be able to help himself but to give away his excess good mojo, and he will have tons of it. He will be like the energizer bunny and will make her breakfast because he can and he enjoys being productive. No strings attached and she will melt because he is doing it out of love and respect and not for a piece of ass.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> I think the moratorium is a serious mistake. ..... Even so, taking sex off the table implies that he is solely at fault for the current state of the marriage. It is a very dangerous message to send.


I don't agree and don't see how a moratorium implies anything other than BM1 has found his balls and has more important things to do than have crappy sex with his wife.


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## MEM2020

That is a great point. So he defines a boundary: he is not going to have crappy sex with her. She can initiate however that means she comes to bed with a loving heart and a genuine desire to connect with him. If she does otherwise he will stop the proceedings.

And I guess he could add in a bit about: if she cannot generally be respectful and considerate he doesn't want to sleep with her.




OTE=FormerNiceGuy;670873]I don't agree and don't see how a moratorium implies anything other than BM1 has found his balls and has more important things to do than have crappy sex with his wife.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie

FormerNiceGuy said:


> How angry were you before? You still sound pretty angry to me....just sayin.....


quite angry actually. angry that things have changed so much and i am the one most affected by it. angry that the love of my life doesnt seem to want to reciprocate. angry that i have no love life (not just sex mind you). my anger was always pent up, no outward expressions really. thats probably the worst kind. i still harbor resentment but its not anger, alot of this stems from other, non-sexual issues in my marriage. and despite recent accusations, i do not hate women. 

my wife has alot of issues i wont go into, her biggest issue is she is so stubborn she wont address any of them 

i will admit that i am not a pollyanna, no disney here. maybe thats what you are seeing


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## FormerNiceGuy

okeydokie said:


> my wife has alot of issues i wont go into, her biggest issue is she is so stubborn she wont address any of them
> 
> i will admit that i am not a pollyanna, no disney here. maybe thats what you are seeing


I wasn't responding to "pollyanna", just that being pissed isn't a productive place to live.

We get angry because we feel powerless. The thing is, you are an adult and have a great deal of power. So your sexual relationship with your wife is a choice you are making. I know that sounds harsh, but you are accepting it and that is a choice. There are many positive things you can do, but being angry is not one of them.

When you read through these posts - BlueMoon1 and TigerMan as an example, do you see any part of yourself? Start a thread and see what help you can get from this forum.

Regards, FNG


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## okeydokie

FormerNiceGuy said:


> I wasn't responding to "pollyanna", just that being pissed isn't a productive place to live.
> 
> We get angry because we feel powerless. The thing is, you are an adult and have a great deal of power. So your sexual relationship with your wife is a choice you are making. I know that sounds harsh, but you are accepting it and that is a choice. There are many positive things you can do, but being angry is not one of them.
> 
> When you read through these posts - BlueMoon1 and TigerMan as an example, do you see any part of yourself? Start a thread and see what help you can get from this forum.
> 
> Regards, FNG


were all different man, im alot better off than you seem to believe, thanks


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## Tall Average Guy

FormerNiceGuy said:


> TAG:
> 
> I think there are several things wrong with this approach.
> 
> Your Paragraph 1 is advocating that BM1 "act" a certain way to get a certain response. This is a recipe for disaster and exactly what got him in this mess in the first place. Nice guys try to guess what will please women and then act accordingly - it is an act, not the real deal and everybody senses a fake. What if he doesn't feel fun? Maybe he is pissed off and wants to go work out. Maybe he is tired. This is about authenticity - the good, the bad and the ugly.
> 
> If the wife loves him, she accepts all of him. The "real" guy is what she fell in love with in the first place. This was a guy who didn't care much or maybe even at all about pleasing her.
> 
> If she doesn't respond to the real person, we have a different problem, but at least we have clarity. Who wants to be married to someone who doesn't love the essence of who they are? BM1 needs to get himself to the place where he says: "Hi honey, this is the road I am heading down, care to join me?" He is going down the road with or without his wife.


I think you misunderstand my point. My point is don't be an @ss while doing this. He is probably ticked at his wife, so it is far to easy to be a jerk, pout and sulk in a corner, and be miserable to be around. That is just not attractive or pleasant to be around. It is certainly not going to help his marriage. So my adivce is not to do that. I am not talking about pleasing her, I am talking about treating her in a generally decent way. Taken with the other points, it is about enjoying life and showing it.



> Paragraph 2. It is not her job to work on him. He is the only person in the world who is responsible for him. She can support him and encourage him, but only he is responsible for his actions. She can slap him upside the head for acting like a puppy dog - she has in fact by not having sex with him (passive aggressive crap, but action nonetheless).


I disagree. I have certain physical and emotional needs that only my wife can fullfill. If she refuses to do that, I need to work on myself to deal with that. 



> Paragraph 3. He can be intimate in so many ways without being physical or saying I love you. Actions speak louder than words. Once he starts doing all of these wonderful things for himself, he will not be able to help himself but to give away his excess good mojo, and he will have tons of it. He will be like the energizer bunny and will make her breakfast because he can and he enjoys being productive. No strings attached and she will melt because he is doing it out of love and respect and not for a piece of ass.


Not sure this is the case. I definitely agree that doing things because they need to get done, rather than because he is trying to get something out it, is the way to go. Covert contracts like that are poison to a relationship.

By the same token, if he has been a doormat through out the relationship, making breakfast at this point is not something that will likely hep things, as it puts them right back into that mistress/servant dynamic.


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## that_girl

So your wife knows what you're doing? Don't you think that will build more resentment?


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## okeydokie

that_girl said:


> So your wife knows what you're doing? Don't you think that will build more resentment?


i think in some cases the LD/ND spouse might be relieved and pressure will be off them too. remember, they arent interested in intimacy to begin with. the only resentment they might feel is loss of controlling behavior.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not talking about pleasing her, I am talking about treating her in a generally decent way. Taken with the other points, it is about enjoying life and showing it.


I understand and mostly agree. The point wasn't clear. Because BM1 has detached the emotional hose from his wife, he can be decent and happy no matter his wife's mood. Since he made the choice to have a moratorium, it would be crazy to be resentful. He is in control. The only other thing worth noting is that he got in trouble by trying to be perfect rather than authentic and he is as entitled to struggle as anyone else.




Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree. I have certain physical and emotional needs that only my wife can fullfill. If she refuses to do that, I need to work on myself to deal with that.


I agree but I am troubled by the word "needs". I think these are desires and there is a difference. If your wife doesn't emote physically and emotionally, then this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem. At that point, I agree you have to work on yourself, not to deny the desire, but to make sure your side of the street is clean. You will not die if your wife doesn't support you emotionally or physically, but you might lovingly choose to move on if she doesn't want to look at her side of the issue and work though the problem. You would likely be sad, but there should not be resentment because you realize you are responsible for taking care of your own needs and desires and this other person does not want to play. She is entitled to make that choice.




Tall Average Guy said:


> Not sure this is the case. I definitely agree that doing things because they need to get done, rather than because he is trying to get something out it, is the way to go. Covert contracts like that are poison to a relationship.
> 
> By the same token, if he has been a doormat through out the relationship, making breakfast at this point is not something that will likely hep things, as it puts them right back into that mistress/servant dynamic.


We are using different words to say the same thing. It may be too much at this point to make breakfast, but if he is feeling the love and there is no covert contract, he needs to be authentic. This transition is the hard part, because his wife will suspect he is up to his old tricks again and will likely test him. If he stays the course, she is likely to eventually relax and start giving back.


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## Tall Average Guy

FormerNiceGuy said:


> I agree but I am troubled by the word "needs". I think these are desires and there is a difference. If your wife doesn't emote physically and emotionally, then this is symptomatic of a much bigger problem. At that point, I agree you have to work on yourself, not to deny the desire, but to make sure your side of the street is clean. You will not die if your wife doesn't support you emotionally or physically, but you might lovingly choose to move on if she doesn't want to look at her side of the issue and work though the problem. You would likely be sad, but there should not be resentment because you realize you are responsible for taking care of your own needs and desires and this other person does not want to play. She is entitled to make that choice.


I could not disagree more. Physical and emotional intimacy from my wife are a need for me. My marriage needs those things to survive. To call sex with my wife a mere want is to trivialize the connection that it creates. It is a need in the same way that some women need to talk and share feelings to create an emotional connection. Sex is not the only way for me to do this, but is the easiest and most important way for me.

She is absolutely entitled to choose not to meet those needs. Just as I am entitiled to not meet some of her needs. But if she choses not, we very likely would not be married much longer. 

Just because I am ultimately in charge fo meeting my emotional needs does not mean that I cannot let another person in to do it for me. In the case of marriage, my wife and I agreed to be that person for each other. If one of us chooses to no longer uphold our end of the bargain (over the long term), it calls into question our marriage.


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## LovesHerMan

Tall Average Guy said:


> Physical and emotional intimacy from my wife are a need for me. My marriage needs those things to survive. To call sex with my wife a mere want is to trivialize the connection that it creates.


I feel the same way about my marriage. Why get married if there aren't needs that only your spouse can fulfill? Just stay single. Without these needs you are roommates. It is stronger than a desire. It is a need, even if some people object to that word.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Tall Average Guy said:


> My marriage needs those things to survive. To call sex with my wife a mere want is to trivialize the connection that it creates. It is a need in the same way that some women need to talk and share feelings to create an emotional connection. Sex is not the only way for me to do this, but is the easiest and most important way for me.
> 
> She is absolutely entitled to choose not to meet those needs. Just as I am entitiled to not meet some of her needs. But if she choses not, we very likely would not be married much longer.
> 
> Just because I am ultimately in charge fo meeting my emotional needs does not mean that I cannot let another person in to do it for me. In the case of marriage, my wife and I agreed to be that person for each other. If one of us chooses to no longer uphold our end of the bargain (over the long term), it calls into question our marriage.


You say a great deal in this post. I am not here to debate you, just share my experience. I understand your point and respect what you are saying, just approach this differently.

I think Kahlil Gibran got it right. Lovers don't need anything from one another, but choose to come together in a celebration of life.


*On Marriage* by Kahlil Gibran

You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.


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## LovesHerMan

FormerNiceGuy said:


> You say a great deal in this post. I am not here to debate you, just share my experience. I understand your point and respect what you are saying, just approach this differently.
> 
> I think Kahlil Gibran got it right. Lovers don't need anything from one another, but choose to come together in a celebration of life.
> 
> 
> *On Marriage* by Kahlil Gibran
> 
> You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.
> You shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
> Ay, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.
> But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
> And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
> 
> Love one another, but make not a bond of love:
> Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
> Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
> Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf
> Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
> Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
> 
> Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.
> For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
> And stand together yet not too near together:
> For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
> And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow.


I understand what you are trying to say, but this is not the model for marriage that works for me. I am bonded to my husband in a million ways, and I love that we are intimately intertwined.

I would not want to be in a marriage where it didn't matter to me if we did not connect on a deep level. 

You are saying it is bad to be co-dependent on another person, and that is true, but for people with deep emotions, we need to feel that there is one person in the world who gets us, whose strengths support our weaknesses. I guess it is a romantic view of love vs. a practical one.


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## Racer

The moratorium is a mistake. Did you read about ‘covert contracts’ in NMMNG? Why you are doing it is hoping it will get some sort of reaction from your wife. Even worse, you are hoping for a specific reaction... she’ll miss it and want sex. This approach, as you are trying it, is nothing more than a “Oh yeah!” tantrum.

Why you do the moratorium is when you need to re-assign the value of sex in your own mind or have a sex issue with your own perspective. It’s a ‘stand back’ and observe approach to yourself and what you learn about yourself.

What worked oh so much better for my wife and I was the 121 days of sex (her idea). Basically, once a day you must have sex. No excuses, no ‘rainchecks’, or whatever. It is a chore... yup, for as much as I love sex, having to do it regardless of passion made it a chore. I learned I value intimacy more and had mistakenly thought sex = intimacy, love, desire, passion, etc. It did a great job at shattering those notions. Sex is the result of those emotions, not the other way around. So, I was able to figure out what I wanted; Intimacy. That is where I worked... and the sex life followed. 

Oh, and for my wife, I think she learned sex is not a commodity to be exchanged like a reward... it devalued it and she found I still did the same chores without needing to be rewarded... So, the value and ‘why’ she’d have sex changed. Now she does it for fun and based on emotions; there is no more of the ‘did he earn it?’ question and pre-flight checklist that had grown to rediculious proportions.


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## okeydokie

Racer said:


> What worked oh so much better for my wife and I was the 121 days of sex (her idea).


thats a good approach. unfortunately not all of us has a spouse that would have that idea but go along with it either.


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## Racer

okeydokie said:


> thats a good approach. unfortunately not all of us has a spouse that would have that idea but go along with it either.


I was shocked she suggested it... We were a sexless marriage (<10 times per year). I wouldn't have even thought to approach her... Yet, she'd just gotten out of affairs, I was going, and she was desperate to find something (and I'd complained for a decade about the sexless marriage)... So, it was the hyperbonding stage and her idea of 'commodity' exchange to keep me at home... lots of 'wrong' reasons, but still good results.

So, you might approach it by just saying "Hey, I saw some guy post about this and this is what he and his wife learned..." Also google some articles; Really, the originator of this did role play type stuff (pick up at bar things, dirty car sex, etc.), romantic evenings, and whatnot to spice up their sex life.... Yet what they learned from the experience was similiar though. We've got kiddos, so disappearing for every evening wasn't an option. There were some quickies at lunch though . First couple weeks was a dream come true... then, it became routine.. Then a chore... then something neither looked forward to... We only made it half way.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

Okay, I know this is the "man" forum, but as a woman, let me add my two cents worth.

We are not children. Punishing us hoping for change doesn't work any better than if we do it to you--so a moratorium--wouldn't work in my house and wouldn't work with most women as we would feel like we were being punished, as you would your child. To me that is another way of execising control over another person. A recipie for disaster and a major backfire in my house.

Now, if my husband seemed happy without me, going on with his life and not meeting my needs of hearing I Love You, calling me to see how I was doing, etc., that would speak MUCH LOUDER than the other approach.

Alas, the case in my home is reversed. I'm the one missing the intimacy and sexual contact, he is not. Most of this is due to medical reasons and medication on his part, so I coninute to be patient and wait...haven't figured out how long I'm willing to wait, but wait I will--some things are beyond his control.

It's just really sad to me that a great, robust sex life has turned into nothing...it's like the death of a best friend.


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## okeydokie

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay, I know this is the "man" forum, but as a woman, let me add my two cents worth.
> 
> We are not children. Punishing us hoping for change doesn't work any better than if we do it to you--so a moratorium--wouldn't work in my house and wouldn't work with most women as we would feel like we were being punished, as you would your child. To me that is another way of execising control over another person. A recipie for disaster and a major backfire in my house.
> 
> Now, if my husband seemed happy without me, going on with his life and not meeting my needs of hearing I Love You, calling me to see how I was doing, etc., that would speak MUCH LOUDER than the other approach.
> 
> Alas, the case in my home is reversed. I'm the one missing the intimacy and sexual contact, he is not. Most of this is due to medical reasons and medication on his part, so I coninute to be patient and wait...haven't figured out how long I'm willing to wait, but wait I will--some things are beyond his control.
> 
> It's just really sad to me that a great, robust sex life has turned into nothing...it's like the death of a best friend.


okay, i might have missed the point of the moritorium. its not, in my mind, to punish to one that doesnt want intimacy, its to step back and re-evaluate circumstances and to eliminate the stress that wanting but not getting my intimacy needs met creates. in my case, its not something i have stated i am doing and i am NOT trying to do the "i'll show you" thing. im doing it for me. i do not expect a reaction of her all of a sudden wanting sex one day. im past all that


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## Toffer

Okey,

Why do you stay then or why don't you pursue something outside the marriage?

I'm almost getting there myself I think. Giving it 2-3 more months and will then tell the wife if things don't change (and I am willing to do anything she wants to affect the change) I may have to go outside the marriage to meet my needs and wants and she'll be welcome to do so too. After that, who knows which way it will go.

I' done talking, reading books, doing worksheets and talking to counselors. It's time for action!


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## okeydokie

Toffer said:


> Okey,
> 
> Why do you stay then or why don't you pursue something outside the marriage?
> 
> I'm almost getting there myself I think. Giving it 2-3 more months and will then tell the wife if things don't change (and I am willing to do anything she wants to affect the change) I may have to go outside the marriage to meet my needs and wants and she'll be welcome to do so too. After that, who knows which way it will go.
> 
> I' done talking, reading books, doing worksheets and talking to counselors. It's time for action!


because i am ok without it right now. my focus is on my 3 kids and their sports careers (which is a 7 day a week venture). al 3 have scholarship opportunities and that is alot of work to make happen. i am finally distracted from the issue as i feel she has been for awhile. when my kids are gone, who knows?


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## Bluemoon1

Thanks for all your replies and comments, to be honest it's going much better than I expected, I feel great, and the reason is I can (and have done) tell her exactly what I feel, I am even starting to define boundaries (not in any formal way).

Don't get me wrong, I like sex but not at the price I have been paying. The reason I took (what for me is) a very drastic step was the realisation that she was using sex as a weapon against me, and when I think back has been doing so for years.

Funny thing tonight, when I got home from the gym (loving the gym as well) she asked if I had a shirt for tomorrow, I told her i did not, now I can't iron to save my life and she knows it, she made some sarcastic comment about her doing her stuff and me doing my stuff, told her if she had a problem I would send my stuff away to be ironed, no problem, never mentioned it again, been a few tests or provocations as well, and this time I passed them with flying colours


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## MEM2020

Wait until she asks you to do something. Reply with "gosh, wish I had time, just remembered I need to pick up my shirts from the cleaners.

Totally normal voice. Just stating a fact. I only do this type thing when my partner is being really over the top. It seems to work.

QUOTE=Bluemoon1;671932]Thanks for all your replies and comments, to be honest it's going much better than I expected, I feel great, and the reason is I can (and have done) tell her exactly what I feel, I am even starting to define boundaries (not in any formal way).

Don't get me wrong, I like sex but not at the price I have been paying. The reason I took (what for me is) a very drastic step was the realisation that she was using sex as a weapon against me, and when I think back has been doing so for years.

Funny thing tonight, when I got home from the gym (loving the gym as well) she asked if I had a shirt for tomorrow, I told her i did not, now I can't iron to save my life and she knows it, she made some sarcastic comment about her doing her stuff and me doing my stuff, told her if she had a problem I would send my stuff away to be ironed, no problem, never mentioned it again, been a few tests or provocations as well, and this time I passed them with flying colours[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy

MEM11363 said:


> Wait until she asks you to do something. Reply with "gosh, wish I had time, just remembered I need to pick up my shirts from the cleaners.


Mem, you are in trouble. 

Repeat after me: "this is not about getting even"

Ten times.


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## Bluemoon1

Just a quick update, things are going well for me anyway, although there are glimmerings that she is now actually starting to sit up and take notice of some of the other changes that I have introduced to my life, she seems a little confused and is acting more vulnerable, sometimes she gets angry at me (most of the time I don't respond although I slip up now and again) and then she is creeping around me

I think she is starting to understand this is not a flash in the pan, I mean what I say, I am changing. 

She even rang me at work the other day  for no particular reason, another thing I have started to notice is that now I am going to the gym and getting fit and looking better, she is really starting to watch what she eats


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## FormerNiceGuy

Bluemoon1 said:


> I have started to notice is that now I am going to the gym and getting fit and looking better, she is really starting to watch what she eats


Shagalicious baby! You are finding your mojo:smthumbup:


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## Bluemoon1

To be honest it's something I have always known I should do, but it seems so counter intuitive, it's not a punishment for anyone (as was stated earlier) it's me at last realising I was in a pretty bad place (as they say nowadays) regards to sex, it was unhealthy and to be honest left me feeling more than a little empty after the event.

When you realise that you have lost your dignity and backbone because of something, it's time to call a halt and do something different. Not being the lost puppy or the sad panda (as Athol says) is brilliant for the first time in years I can actually say what I feel, do things without seeking approval and start to be my self more and more each day. The longer this goes on I am also starting to think about sex as often which is good for me because I was becoming obsessive about it.


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## Bluemoon1

Just an update, the moratorium did not last that long, we have done it a few times but to be honest it has not been good, but she told me the other day me working out and quitting smoking has made her feel insecure, told he I was glad she has noticed! I am not pushing for sex in the way I used to.

The whole relationship has taken on a new dynamic, and to be honest I don't know where it will all lead, I am prepared to give it time, we have a long way to go


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