# Can your husband be too independent



## DesertRat1978

Question for the Ladies:
I have posted on other threads about my wife’s lack of desire for intimacy. Through some serious deliberations, I have come to the realization that we live very separate lives. So my question is this: Do you want your men to be ultra-independent? Do you want to be needed? 

Let’s draw a line between being needed and wanted. Needed is where they need you to make sure that they pack a lunch, make sure that they remember this or that. Wanted is where they want to be with you, share space with you, and such.

I will make this short but I am a very independent person. I do my own laundry. I take care of my transportation needs. I feed myself 90% of the time. In short, I live pretty much the same life as I did before marrying her. Would that level of detachment turn you off? Or would you find it admirable that your man takes care of all his needs without you?

Additional question: Would his not needing you in daily life affect you in the bedroom? Would you want him less sexually if your need to nurture was not being met?


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## norajane

The answer to this is going to vary. For me, personally, I like that my SO is independent and doesn't need me to wipe his nose for him. 

But, I absolutely need him to "need" AND "want" to spend quality time together, fun time, vacation time, to turn to me when he is stressed out by work or something, to confide in me and to be close with me emotionally and physically. At the same time, I like lots of alone-time myself, so I don't want us to be tied at the hip all the time with no independent activities.

It's a balance, and every couple will have a different balance that works for them.


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## Faithful Wife

My H and I are very close, not co-dependant but inter-dependant.

We love needing each other and caring for each other.

I could not live without extreme closeness.

But...individual tastes vary wildly on this, I am sure. What some would feel is smothering, others will feel is heaven.


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## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> My H and I are very close, not co-dependant but inter-dependant.
> 
> We love needing each other and caring for each other.
> 
> I could not live without extreme closeness.
> 
> But...individual tastes vary wildly on this, I am sure. What some would feel is smothering, others will feel is heaven.


:iagree:

Other people would view the dynamic in our house as smothering and most ladies would view SO as too needy.

I like packing his lunches for him when I pack mine. He thinks it tastes better when I pack it for him I find that sweet and adorable.
I love that he needs me especially after spending most of my twenties and teens surrounded by people and men who didn't need me at all.Even as a self sufficient and independent person,it isn't fun going through life knowing not one single person needs you around.
I'm just learning how to stop being too independent and I'm learning how it's ok to need my partner.

My ex was too independent.We lived parallel lives.I tried to get close to him and he treated me like I was a nuisance.It was no good.


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## Faithful Wife

Yeah...I love how my husband pays attention to me. Like, everything about me. And it is because he is authentically interested in me. It feels great.

If my partner wasn't that concerned about me, my life, my comings and goings, my friends, etc...I would likely end up drifting away from him.


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## BruisedGirl

tyler1978 said:


> Question for the Ladies:
> I have posted on other threads about my wife’s lack of desire for intimacy. Through some serious deliberations, I have come to the realization that we live very separate lives. So my question is this: Do you want your men to be ultra-independent? Do you want to be needed?
> 
> Let’s draw a line between being needed and wanted. Needed is where they need you to make sure that they pack a lunch, make sure that they remember this or that. Wanted is where they want to be with you, share space with you, and such.
> 
> I will make this short but I am a very independent person. I do my own laundry. I take care of my transportation needs. I feed myself 90% of the time. In short, I live pretty much the same life as I did before marrying her. Would that level of detachment turn you off? Or would you find it admirable that your man takes care of all his needs without you?
> 
> Additional question: Would his not needing you in daily life affect you in the bedroom? Would you want him less sexually if your need to nurture was not being met?


I know you said let's draw a line between need and want but for me that's nearly impossible.

My need to nurture is fulfilled in mothering my children. I do so much for my guy that sometimes it would be nice if he would do for himself. 

That being said, I love nuturing him when my needs are met... when I feel wanted.

I do love to be needed by him, but I also love appreciation.

The way you describe your situation though, I would probably feel like, "Well he does xyz for himself so maybe he can get his own rocks off, too."

Interesting question. I like this thread. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan

I think it is entirely possible for a husband or wife to be too independent. Functioning adults should, IMO, be capable of taking care of their own basic needs. But if the two are living parallel lives with little overlap, then you end up with a roommate rather than a spouse. Many women need emotional connection in order to really desire sexual intimacy, which you don't really have if you're living parallel, roommate-style lives.


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## DesertRat1978

I still make a point to be home on time, spend time with her, join her for family gatherings, watch certain tv shows, etc. 

Part of it is that she makes 3 times as much as I do and I get to feeling like I am "mooching" off her. If I was on my own, I would be below the poverty level. So, as a way of salvaging some pride, I take care of all of my needs as well as doing all of the housework. 

It is a bit selfish on my part to want the satisfaction of helping someone and not wanting it in return.


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## Faithful Wife

"Part of it is that she makes 3 times as much as I do and I get to feeling like I am "mooching" off her."


This is a huge part of your issues, then.


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## LoveAtDaisys

tyler1978 said:


> I still make a point to be home on time, spend time with her, join her for family gatherings, watch certain tv shows, etc.
> 
> Part of it is that she makes 3 times as much as I do and I get to feeling like I am "mooching" off her. If I was on my own, I would be below the poverty level. So, as a way of salvaging some pride, I take care of all of my needs as well as doing all of the housework.
> 
> It is a bit selfish on my part to want the satisfaction of helping someone and not wanting it in return.


Have you communicated that with her?

When my husband stopped working and started getting his school stipend instead, it created a lot of friction between us. We had to sit down and discuss it and it turned out that he felt inadequate because I had become the sole breadwinner and he was not earning money.


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## DesertRat1978

LoveAtDaisys said:


> Have you communicated that with her?
> 
> When my husband stopped working and started getting his school stipend instead, it created a lot of friction between us. We had to sit down and discuss it and it turned out that he felt inadequate because I had become the sole breadwinner and he was not earning money.


Yes, I have. She does not know what to do about it so we just leave it be. We lead a fine existence. It just hurts the pride to know that the house and most of what is in it is due to her income and not mine. 

Besides this, I am naturally quite introverted and independent. One of my main fears in life is that someone will say that they had to take care of me. Saying that I am too weak and self-absorbed to tend to my own needs would be damaging to me.


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## heartsbeating

tyler1978 said:


> In short, I live pretty much the same life as I did before marrying her. Would that level of detachment turn you off? Or would you find it admirable that your man takes care of all his needs without you?
> 
> Additional question: Would his not needing you in daily life affect you in the bedroom? Would you want him less sexually if your need to nurture was not being met?


I wouldn't like that level of detachment. 

Being in a relationship, I like that he's independent but we also take care of things together. It's nice to feel cared for, considered and thought about. And it's nice to care for, consider and think about him. This can equate to feelings of intimacy.

As for the job scenario, I agree with telling her very simply that that's how you feel. When my husband and I lived overseas, I secured employment and he didn't. I was clueless at the time how this impacted him - while I knew he dug that I could have his back and ensure we were all good, I underestimated how this affected him. My perspective at that time was polar opposite to his and there was a lack of understanding on my part.

What I loved though, was him packing lunch for us both and meeting me for lunch-dates. He also volunteered with creating a community garden. For me personally, thinking of others (your wife) is a very attractive quality. There's nothing weak or self-absorbed about showing vulnerability, and taking care of others - as well as allowing yourself to be taken care of.


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## DesertRat1978

heartsbeating said:


> I wouldn't like that level of detachment.
> 
> Being in a relationship, I like that he's independent but we also take care of things together. It's nice to feel cared for, considered and thought about. And it's nice to care for, consider and think about him. This can equate to feelings of intimacy.
> 
> As for the job scenario, I agree with telling her very simply that that's how you feel. When my husband and I lived overseas, I secured employment and he didn't. I was clueless at the time how this impacted him - while I knew he dug that I could have his back and ensure we were all good, I underestimated how this affected him. My perspective at that time was polar opposite to his and there was a lack of understanding on my part.
> 
> What I loved though, was him packing lunch for us both and meeting me for lunch-dates. He also volunteered with creating a community garden. For me personally, thinking of others (your wife) is a very attractive quality. There's nothing weak or self-absorbed about showing vulnerability, and taking care of others - as well as allowing yourself to be taken care of.


In short, I think that I need to allow someone to take care of me. I take care of her but do not let the converse of that happen. Additionally, my hobbies are all pretty solitary endeavors so I may have to work on including someone. Thanks for the reply, it is very thought-provoking.


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## dormant

Interesting question: I would much rather be wanted than needed. If needed, then I would be responsibile for someone's happiness. We should each be responsible for our own happiness. Therefore wanted is better....


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## ScarletBegonias

tyler1978 said:


> In short, I think that I need to allow someone to take care of me. I take care of her but do not let the converse of that happen. /QUOTE]
> 
> ahhh!!! You sound like me! LOL
> 
> It's scary letting someone else take care of you,isn't it?! Toughest thing I've ever done is showing someone else I need them and letting them take care of me.
> 
> I went through all types of emotions.
> I felt weak,lazy,vulnerable,small...
> 
> then loved,important,cherished,adored,and indescribably satisfied


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## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> Question for the Ladies:
> I have posted on other threads about my wife’s lack of desire for intimacy. Through some serious deliberations, I have come to the realization that we live very separate lives. So my question is this: *Do you want your men to be ultra-independent? Do you want to be needed? *
> 
> Let’s draw a line between being needed and wanted.
> 
> *Needed is where they need you to make sure that they pack a lunch, make sure that they remember this or that.*
> 
> *Wanted is where they want to be with you, share space with you, and such.*
> 
> I will make this short but I am a very independent person. I do my own laundry. I take care of my transportation needs. I feed myself 90% of the time. In short, I live pretty much the same life as I did before marrying her. Would that level of detachment turn you off? Or would you find it admirable that your man takes care of all his needs without you?
> 
> Additional question: Would his not needing you in daily life affect you in the bedroom? Would you want him less sexually if your need to nurture was not being met?


So often ...people are written off as *clingy* and *needy* cause they would like more TIME with their spouse, they are referred to as *smothering*....It depends.....

They may be at odds compatibility/ love language wise...people with *TIME *&* TOUCH* nearing the top would highly ENJOY spending more hands on time with their lovers...as this fulfills them. 

I consider myself very independent minded and I prefer to do many things myself ...I don't care to be waited on...I'd rather get my own plate, tea, don't need anyone to cater to me... sometimes I even get annoyed if someone wants to help me cause I know they are going to slow me down or I may not care for the way they do things....I also don't LIKE asking people for help unless it's necessary...so "*acts of service*" wise... not at all needy...unless it's a MAN thing and I need his strength, expertise...so I don't injure myself. 

YET....on the other hand... I LOVE to be WITH my husband....spending that sweet time... hanging out, bantering/ laughing, cuddling...I adore his company, crave it .... "*2 is better than one*" ....yeah I like that... it's connection, it's emotionally fulfilling.....we ENJOY making each other's lives easier.. Something in us all should have the desire to give back....*appreciation* grows from our Union...what the other brings....it's not something forced, you do it out of *gratitude*... ..I hope this is making some kind of sense. 

I wouldn't call my husband needy at all.. but he lets me know he NEEDS me... and I love it...He is the type of man who refuses to even ask for help when he is doing a Job.. he doesn't want to burden anyone.. -yet he loves me being around...he'll even ask me to come outside while he's working on a vehicle -even if he doesn't need a hand.. just to keep him company...

SO we call ourselves "CLINGY"... Now if someone else says that about us..likely it would be more of a "put down".. but to us..it's something we dearly Love & enjoy about each other.....this makes sense, after all...as we are both TIME & TOUCH at the top of our love languages.

I DO feel couples can be TOO Independent.. when a woman goes on how she has no need of her husband cause she is financially independent, the spirit in which this is said...has the power to cut into his purpose or his desire to Provide as a man/ giving to his wife...feeling it is not appreciated. 

There is a delicate balance in these things...


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## DesertRat1978

I am going to run a quick experiment this week. I am going to coordinate our transportation needs. Usually, she leaves without me and I ride my bike. It is a bit out of the way for me to do this but there may be benefits to come out of this.


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## Thebes

When you don't feel needed or wanted your not going to want to have much sex with someone like that. I think the two go hand in hand.

I'm not saying the man shouldn't help.


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## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> Yes, I have. She does not know what to do about it so we just leave it be. We lead a fine existence. It just hurts the pride to know that the house and most of what is in it is due to her income and not mine.
> 
> Besides this, I am naturally quite introverted and independent. One of my main fears in life is that someone will say that they had to take care of me. Saying that I am too weak and self-absorbed to tend to my own needs would be damaging to me.


Does your wife say that she wants to care for you more?

I'm the main bread-winner in my household, and personally, I quite like it when my SO independently takes care of himself -- and me. I feel like I'm already contributing quite a lot, and if he were to ask for more, I think my head might explode. There's only so much I can do in a day.

What would create distance for me is the worry that he doesn't really *want* to be with me. Not just attending obligatory social events or winding down after work, but for genuinely connecting and sharing our ideas, interests, and lives. I need him to want me.

Not sure this applies to you, but thought I would throw it into the mix.


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## DesertRat1978

always_alone said:


> Does your wife say that she wants to care for you more?
> 
> I'm the main bread-winner in my household, and personally, I quite like it when my SO independently takes care of himself -- and me. I feel like I'm already contributing quite a lot, and if he were to ask for more, I think my head might explode. There's only so much I can do in a day.
> 
> What would create distance for me is the worry that he doesn't really *want* to be with me. Not just attending obligatory social events or winding down after work, but for genuinely connecting and sharing our ideas, interests, and lives. I need him to want me.
> 
> Not sure this applies to you, but thought I would throw it into the mix.


No, she does not. I am just grasping at straws as to why she has zero sex drive. Sometimes, I wonder if she has a bit of a codependent way about her. Her mother and her aunts are that way. They have to be needed. I rely on my wife for companionship, friendship, and such. We do not really coordinate our lives before 6 pm. We are two independent spheres that come together in the evening.


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## Rowan

How much time do the two of you spend each week doing fun, date-like, things together? If it's less than about 15 hours, it may simply be that you need to ramp up your time together doing stuff other than sitting at home watching television or attending to mundane daily tasks. Most couples can benefit from some grown-up fun together out doing interesting things. You fall in love while dating. If you aren't dating one another a whole lot after marriage, that in-love feeling can start to wane.


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## DesertRat1978

Rowan said:


> How much time do the two of you spend each week doing fun, date-like, things together? If it's less than about 15 hours, it may simply be that you need to ramp up your time together doing stuff other than sitting at home watching television or attending to mundane daily tasks. Most couples can benefit from some grown-up fun together out doing interesting things. You fall in love while dating. If you aren't dating one another a whole lot after marriage, that in-love feeling can start to wane.


I would estimate that we spend about 8 to 10 hours a week doing things other than hanging out on the couch after work. Saturdays are our day. I make sure that I have nothing going on that day.


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## Vega

Thebes said:


> When you don't feel needed or wanted your not going to want to have much sex with someone like that. I think the two go hand in hand.
> 
> I'm not saying the man shouldn't help.


Sex was the ONLY thing I felt "wanted" or "needed" for. Almost everything else, he could handle himself. 

Toward the end of our r/s, I kept thinking, "What's the _point_(of being with someone who's so independent that they don't have much of a need for you or a want for you)?"


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## YinPrincess

My husband was/is "too" independent. The last few weeks I was living with him he excluded me from nearly any and all activities. His interests were things like reading, internet, yoga, meditating, running on the treadmill, etc. A few times I got him to read to me, but he became annoyed with that. I got tired of being lonely. He had to be bribed or coaxed into any activity that interested me (and used to interest him, too!)

It got old fast. I felt like a ghost. Yes, a complete TURN OFF as far as sex, since apparently I was excluded from that as well. He used my body but stopped caring about what I liked or wanted. I guess I became too much trouble to deal with... :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous

YinPrincess said:


> My husband was/is "too" independent. The last few weeks I was living with him he excluded me from nearly any and all activities. His interests were things like reading, internet, yoga, meditating, running on the treadmill, etc. A few times I got him to read to me, but he became annoyed with that. I got tired of being lonely. He had to be bribed or coaxed into any activity that interested me (and used to interest him, too!)
> 
> It got old fast. I felt like a ghost. Yes, a complete TURN OFF as far as sex, since apparently I was excluded from that as well. He used my body but stopped caring about what I liked or wanted. I guess I became too much trouble to deal with... :/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd never be able to remain with a man like this, it would PI$$ me off royally... I wouldn't badger or anything.... I'd just plan my escape... seriously.....I feel for you ...

My belief is ...those who enjoy loads of "Cave time"/ Guy time, Independent Hobby time should marry similar "independents".....and those who ENJOY the bonding comradeship of doing many things together, that Best friend type relationship/ always sharing & cuddling...should hook up ....and not settle for less.. 

I feel it creates a lot of sadness, like a constant craving one is missing something...(just imagining here)....for an Independent to marry a touchy Feely Giver who craves togetherness.


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## Cosmos

tyler1978 said:


> Additional question: Would his not needing you in daily life affect you in the bedroom? Would you want him less sexually if your need to nurture was not being met?


I think there's a difference between _interdependence_ and _acting independently_, and in a healthy marriage I think couples tend to be _interdependent_. 

Both my SO and I are very independent people, but if we lived "separate lives," and he acted _independently of me_, I would have less desire to be intimate with him.


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## DesertRat1978

Only our mundane, daily lives are we so detached. We do not coordinate daily necessary items such as lunch, laundry, and so on. I was under the impression that by not being needy that i was making her sometimes stressful life easier. After work, we are together most of the time. I do not need a lot of "me" time. However, I end up having it anyways. Our time together on nights and weekends gets upstaged by friends, family, and work. In April, our first child will join the world. I am already fourth on the pedestal and soon to be lower. I am not a needy person but this is feeling like roommates.


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## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> Only our mundane, daily lives are we so detached. We do not coordinate daily necessary items such as lunch, laundry, and so on. I was under the impression that by not being needy that i was making her sometimes stressful life easier.


 Let me explain how we are.. I don't consider myself NEEDY at all as far as getting my own stuff done, I don't even like help...I am not an "*Acts of service*" woman at all (one of the 5 love languages)...meaning I don't feel "loved" cause he ran to the Grocery store for me or helped me with my laundry- I can do those things on my own....

When he is at work.. I consider it MY JOB to get everything done before we walks through that door - so our night is FREE ....open to whatever comes up...or he can just RELAX...

I have no desire under the sun for him to help me with mundane tasks, when that starts happening, I am falling down on my duties... And he too holds his own as far as his responsibilities...though we try to coordinate these so we will have as much free "US" time as humanly possible...like if was going out to a candle party or out with GF's he would work on a personal hobby/project during that time...not when we are together...

We highly value our free time together, cause we so enjoy it. 



> After work, we are together most of the time. I do not need a lot of "me" time. However, I end up having it anyways. Our time together on nights and weekends gets upstaged by friends, family, and work. In April, our first child will join the world. I am already fourth on the pedestal and soon to be lower. I am not a needy person but this is feeling like roommates.


 Have you talked to her about what she wants, craves from you? Some adjustments to how you handle your *free time* could make all the difference.


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## DesertRat1978

I ask her what she wants to do and then I oblige. I get enough “me” time and so I try to make our “us” time enjoyable for her. I gear it around her. While we do things such as watch movies, go out, etc. I am not shy about being affectionate. She gives me nonverbal approval of this. However, if I initiate I get an indifferent response such as “I’m not in the mood” or “too tired”. She never expresses any empathy just cold, flat, and indifferent. I would welcome an argument or something to show that it matters to her in some way but no.

I think that I do have to try to not be so accommodating. I stopped trying to initiate about four months ago and that has been less than successful. We have done it three times since then and all of them were about conceiving.


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## DvlsAdvc8

My ex absolutely hated my independence. Which isn't to say the hobbies that I did without her, but rather than I wasn't big on having things done for me. Acts of service were one of her big ways to show affection, but to me it was just a big vulnerability to complaints that I'm not doing something.

Even though she wanted to serve, she'd still complain about the burden (ie laundry). That would get my attention and I'd go about doing it myself to address her complaint. In fact, I'd look at everything that's done and re-balance the work load so that complaint had no basis anymore... and then she'd complain about that too! She'd complain that I'm doing the laundry or whatever it was she complained about, and that I don't need her for anything. It was maddening! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

She would say something like "I make one little complaint about being overwhelmed by laundry and you go an take over half the laundry and everything else like you don't even need me here".

This was a total WTF for me. So... you WANT to do ALL the laundry AND complain about it?

I now look for this trait in the women I date and avoid it. I don't want someone serving me. It has such a horrible taste. Especially not if she's going to complain about that workload; even if she's complaining about the amount of work and not that I'm not contributing enough - as the therapist said of my ex. I'd just rather do it myself.


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## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> *I ask her what she wants to do and then I oblige. I get enough “me” time and so I try to make our “us” time enjoyable for her. *I gear it around her. While we do things such as watch movies, go out, etc. *I am not shy about being affectionate. *She gives me nonverbal approval of this. *However, if I initiate I get an indifferent response such as “I’m not in the mood” or “too tired”. She never expresses any empathy just cold, flat, and indifferent*. I would welcome an argument or something to show that it matters to her in some way but no.


 Sounds like you are a good husband to me and trying to do the best you can...you are being affectionate and she is turning you away... 



> I think that I do have to try to not be so accommodating. I stopped trying to initiate about four months ago and that has been less than successful. We have done it three times since then *and all of them were about conceiving*.


Infertility ?? Oh wait.. but ONLY 3 times in 4 months! 

She isn't trying too hard!!! We had 6+ yrs of that roller coaster.... I too, had my BAD days, testy, irritable, had nothing to do with him-he was wonderful... just being *angry* over the situation...

Not sure how long you have been trying -but when it drags on for years, test after test, its very hard on the woman... And the sex.. he felt as you did, I was more interested in *the TIMING* ..and his  over his pleasure... this took a hit on his feeling "loved" by me.. REGRETS....those are some of my biggest.


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## DesertRat1978

"Infertility ?? Been there, done that..... we had 6+ yrs of that roller coaster, most stressing time in our marriage, cause of how badly I wanted to conceive.... I too, had my BAD days, testy, irritable, had nothing to do with him-he was wonderful... just being angry over the situation..."

"Not sure how long you have been trying -but when it drags on for years, test after test, then a surgery, and still took another 2 yrs, I was loosing hope. And the sex.. he felt as you did, I was more interested in the TIMING ..and his over his pleasure... this took a hit on his feeling "loved" by me.. REGRETS....those are some of my biggest !"

Yes, she had issues with infertility. She was not ovulating and therefore having no period. She did conceive. We went through the standard infertility treatments and when it came time for my swimmers to do the job, they came through. She is 12 weeks along and appears to be fine. Ever since the three sessions that were dedicated to conception, our sex life has been nonexistent. Prior to that, we were a once or twice a month couple. Even then it was mostly to keep me happy.


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## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> Yes, she had issues with infertility. She was not ovulating and therefore having no period. She did conceive. We went through the standard infertility treatments and when it came time for my swimmers to do the job, they came through. *She is 12 weeks along and appears to be fine. Ever since the three sessions that were dedicated to conception, our sex life has been nonexistent. Prior to that, we were a once or twice a month couple. Even then it was mostly to keep me happy.*


Do you know if your wife orgasms? It doesn't sound like she enjoys sex AT ALL ...Once a month is darn well near what is considered a SEXLESS MARRIAGE (considered 10 or less times a year by Sex Therapists).....

IF it was THIS BAD BEFORE getting her pregnant, I am afraid you are not going to care for what comes after...you married a VERY low drive woman...was it always like this?? 

When you started this thread, I was feeling BAD for the wife thinking you was too independent ignoring her needs...since your last couple posts... I see a completely different picture painted....
I sympathize with YOU. 

The 1st 12 weeks she likely had some nasty morning sickness, this should die down... MANY women become very horny during pregnancy with all those hormones circulating....Hopefully you will be the beneficiary of some of that ...at least.. Geez! 

How are you not drowning in resentment --- is my question? How often do you desire intimacy? A couple needs to come together and find an acceptable compromise here for each other's happiness.... it's not worth being miserable sexually in a marriage.... it may be less than 10% of what goes on..but when it goes sour, is near non existent ...it has a way of feeling like 90% of the marital problems..... do you feel this way? 

Pleasurable affectionate intimacy is a vital part of the bonding keeping a couple happy / content.


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## Sanity

I don't like to be "needed". I prefer to be wanted as in "Hey I like hanging out with you and having a good time and maybe jump in the sack. I also care about you and love our time together" kinda thing. I hate clingy types. Sucks your energy away especially the ones who are clingy and claim they are not.


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## SimplyAmorous

Sanity said:


> *I don't like to be "needed". I prefer to be wanted as in "Hey I like hanging out with you and having a good time and maybe jump in the sack. I also care about you and love our time together" kinda thing*. I hate clingy types. Sucks your energy away especially the ones who are clingy and claim they are not.


I do wonder if there is a divider of people in this....

I'm curious....So songs like this >> YOU'RE THE INSPIRATION ...that use the word *NEED* would be a turn off ? Because you wouldn't want a woman to FEEL this way about YOU, it's too "over the top"...you wouldn't feel this way in return..too sappy perhaps. 

Do people really not like if their lover/ spouse says >>  once in a while..??

Maybe I am making a mountain out of this ... I remember a thread like this.. and everyone was Dissecting *WANT vs NEED*....it was established NEED was bad... it's like it carries automatic mounting insecurities with it or something.. to many, so it should never be used. 

There is surely some separating factor between a healthy, even beautiful view of the term "need" showing great love & affection/ enjoying time together SO MUCH ...vs an unhealthy model (of co-dependency, or "needing" / clinging to someone who sees the other as a burden, a weight - NOT a joy to be around...but actually an annoyance)...which is very . 

Just seems so many feel ...."You shouldn't "*NEED*" anyone.... you should only "*WANT*" THEM...

Using this song by Peter Cetera again.....

Notice *Want* is used once... *NEED* is used 3 times....



> *"You're The Inspiration"*
> 
> You know our love was meant to be
> The kind of love that lasts forever
> And I *want* you here with me
> From tonight until the end of time
> You should know, everywhere I go
> You're always on my mind, in my heart
> In my soul
> 
> Baby
> 
> [Chorus:]
> You're the meaning in my life
> You're the inspiration
> You bring feeling to my life
> You're the inspiration
> Wanna have you near me
> I wanna have you hear me sayin'
> No one needs you more than I need you
> 
> And I know, yes I know that it's plain to see
> We're so in love when we're together
> And I know that I need you here with me
> From tonight until the end of time
> You should know, everywhere I go
> Always on my mind, in my heart in my soul


Now, in my opinion, that song would loose a great deal of it's luster, it's inspiration, it's beauty, without the word NEED in it.

Any thoughts ?


----------



## samyeagar

SimplyAmorous said:


> I do wonder if there is a divider of people in this....
> 
> I'm curious....So songs like this >> YOU'RE THE INSPIRATION ...that use the word *NEED* would be a turn off ? Because you wouldn't want a woman to FEEL this way about YOU, it's too "over the top"...you wouldn't feel this way in return..too sappy perhaps.
> 
> Do people really not like if their lover/ spouse says >>  once in a while..??
> 
> Maybe I am making a mountain out of this ... I remember a thread like this.. and everyone was Dissecting *WANT vs NEED*....it was established NEED was bad... it's like it carries automatic mounting insecurities with it or something.. to many, so it should never be used.
> 
> There is surely some separating factor between a healthy, even beautiful view of the term "need" showing great love & affection/ enjoying time together SO MUCH ...vs an unhealthy model (of co-dependency, or "needing" / clinging to someone who sees the other as a burden, a weight - NOT a joy to be around...but actually an annoyance)...which is very .
> 
> Just seems so many feel ...."You shouldn't "*NEED*" anyone.... you should only "*WANT*" THEM...
> 
> Using this song by Peter Cetera again.....
> 
> Notice *Want* is used once... *NEED* is used 3 times....
> 
> 
> 
> Now, in my opinion, that song would loose a great deal of it's luster, it's inspiration, it's beauty, without the word NEED in it.
> 
> Any thoughts ?


I love when my STBW says she needs me. I am not ashamed to say I need her. Of course we both want each other as well...


----------



## RandomDude

I've been avoiding this thread... but now I'm curious...

STBX has complained in the past about this, how sometimes she doesn't feel needed. Isn't simple desire enough?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> I've been avoiding this thread... but now I'm curious...
> 
> STBX has complained in the past about this, how sometimes she doesn't feel needed. Isn't simple desire enough?


I like to feel needed by my husband.... I do look upon *desire* as *need* though...his desire is towards *me*, so he needs *me*, he'd rather be WITH ME - than go it alone...that is a deep craving... an emotional fulfilling, I just don't see a problem calling that a "NEED"... like it's a dirty ugly word. 

I don't know.. it's a well of a subject I suppose......I just caught your post saying how you HATE / despise, probably want to run away from any TYPE of NEED/ Needing of another... that you have built a "bomb shelter" around yourself in this regard...... interesting.

My husband LIKES to feel "*needed*"...he smiles when the kids want to play a game with him, thrives when I want to be with him... *he enjoys DOING for us...some people are like this*... his temperament is like this... (probably more than any other of the 16 types... when I read it the 1st time, I laughed out loud how right on it was!)... but he is NOT NEEDY himself... he doesn't even like to ask for help!

I am kinda similar (other than I am not a career woman, so his income supports me, although I manage every dime , and he tells me it'd all fall apart without me..... I ENJOY feeling I have a purpose as a Mother, as a wife , as a scheduler, the grand organizer ....who is there for her husband / my children (even if this work is looked upon as lowly in todays society) ....ya know... his needing me UPS something in me...makes me feel special, irreplaceable...don't we all want to feel this way???

But can I add.... if I felt like a burden in any way, shape or form by another I would RECOIL like a snake ... in the opposite direction. And he is the same..we're both highly sensitive like this. It is what it is.


----------



## RandomDude

Hmmm, is it the desire to feel like you're contributing something then? Rather than simply feeling needed?

:scratchhead:
If that's the case hell I don't get STBX really, she has contributed in our marriage, maybe I just didn't tell her enough times that she did hence she complained about not "feeling needed"... then again...



> irreplaceable


Maybe I've never really made her feel that way I guess.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

I think an answer would depend on what each person's definition of "independent" is in the marriage itself.

My definition of independent is that my husband can think for himself, make his own decisions about his own life (such as--do you want fries with that, what color of socks to wear that day, what to have for lunch, what to watch on TV, etc.). Decisions about his own life that do not affect us as a couple.

I hold that own definition of independence about myself.

On the other hand, I was raised in a time where it was a wife's duty to take care of her husband and her family. For me this means that I "take care" of my husband. I get his meals, I wash his clothes, I do things to make life comfortable for him and to make his life easier--I do this not because he tells me to or even asks me to, I do this because I "enjoy" taking care of my husband. This is the role that I chose as his wife. While others may not find this to their liking, it works for me and most importantly it works for us. He likes a wife that takes on the traditional role of a wife and I like a husband that takes on the traditional role of a husband.

So I think the answer to this question is individual at best because the definition of independence can vary from person to person and the roles that are accepted within a marriage also vary from relationship to relationship. 

Personally, in my marriage, if my husband fed himself all the time and washed his own clothes and behaved as though he were single, but married - that would not work for me because my role in my marriage is that of a nurturer of my husband. That role fulfills me and makes me feel needed, without it I would feel left out and unfulfilled.

So, for each marriage--as different as each of us are.


----------



## RandomDude

Well, I always shoved STBX my laundry, and ate her food, and had her take my daughter out, clean the house, etc etc.

:scratchhead:
Yet she still complained that she didn't feel needed? Guess the problem was on my side then no?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm, is it the desire to feel like you're *contributing something then?* Rather than simply feeling needed?


 Yes I believe IT IS.... Listen, I am just a Mother.....no damn degrees, never stepped a foot in college- other than visiting our son..... I am so uneducated.... no fancy plaques of high achievement hanging on my wall or pats on the back that I'm doing a "great job" in an office somewhere (though I had some of that in the past)... in this society today....the SAHM is the bottom of the barrel.... it means basically SH**... really it does because 80% of all MOMS work too so of course their LOAD is weightier....

So if our husbands aren't giving us a little verbal boost, feedback now & then....to make us feel valued, we might just start to question it...... I belonged to a Mops group where us women would rally around each other and uplift BEING A MOM... that this was a blessing from GOD... regardless if you worked or not. Some did, some didn't. 

My husband has always been amazing here.... so I can't complain.. it hasn't made me lazy...it has, however, kept me feeling important - IN HIS EYES....irregardless of what the rest of the world is saying...Yeah , it's made me feel freaking *NEEDED*...he'd always tell me I am "the brains of the outfit and it'd all fall apart without me.... he'd be lost"... 



> :scratchhead:
> 
> If that's the case hell I don't get STBX really, she has contributed in our marriage, *maybe I just didn't tell her enough times that she did hence she complained about not "feeling needed".*.. then again...
> 
> Maybe I've never really made her feel that way I guess.


 Very likely Random Dude, VERY LIKELY ...

Women are very sensitive emotionally -how a man makes her FEEL... is ...well... it's like this...










Even Mentally handicapped people need to DO something, have some Purpose....this brightens their  showing off their work....it brings structure in their lives...so they feel they are contributing...everyone needs to feel what they do is "important" to SOMEONE... even if it's a lower segment of society...it's connection somehow....just my rambling thoughts anyway.


----------



## RandomDude

Heh guess I'm just not relationship material then >.<

Maybe if theres a next time I need to be more like:
Elliot - YouTube


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Heh guess I'm just not relationship material then >.<
> 
> Maybe if theres a next time I need to be more like:
> Elliot - YouTube


Oh quit making fun.. that was absolutely and dreadfully pathetic ! I couldn't even hear the sound for some reason, but I remember Elliot from some other men using similar clips from that movie to make fun of Beta men yrs ago on here... 

You know there is always a *balance* in sensitivity...a time and a place...

The man who has NO sensitivity is an island... I like this article about them >


> Celebrating the Highly-Sensitive Man
> 
> Sensitive men are incredibly attractive. They are path-forgers in the new paradigm of the evolved man. Strong and sensitive. Intuitive and powerful. They're able to give and receive love without ambivalence, being "unavailable," or commitment phobia....
> 
> A man's empathy allows him to love more fully and be more committed in a loving relationship. But empathic men must nurture their sensitivities while also grounding themselves in their power and setting boundaries with negative people so they aren't drained.
> 
> *Upside of Being an Empathic Man*
> 
> -- You've got a big heart, are gifted in helping others.
> -- Your sensitivity makes you passionate, a great lover, and exquisitely sensual.
> -- You're intuitive about people's thoughts and feelings.
> -- You're emotionally responsive, can relate to another's feelings.
> -- You're in touch with your body and emotions.
> -- You have a palpable sense of spirituality.


They also list the downside of being an Empathetic Man... but I didn't list it here... I can't say my husband fits those other than true, when I am negative, or upset, he does appear to absorb this....it helps I am generally a bubbly stream of Joy...Ha ha ....and it speaks at the end how the empathetic man can find that Balance I speak of.


----------



## RandomDude

Well if it comes to empathy, rather than (hehe) sensitivity, I guess I can swallow that word easier.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

RandomDude said:


> Well if it comes to *empathy*, rather than (hehe) *sensitivity*, I guess I can swallow that word easier.


 Well I haven't taken the time to study the difference between the 2...obviously some people are* overly sensitive*, where you have to walk on egg shells around them...this has always greatly irritated me.. being around someone like that... I am nothing like that...no virgin ears....but without the sensitivity of others, one can not be empathetic..

I can't see how one would be sensitive towards others but not be sensitive to what is said to them as well...it's part of the experience ... isn't it. The answer is Resilience...not that we don't FEEL....but that we have the capacity to recover quickly from difficulties, bouncing back..being logical to the situation surely helps in this, separating what is down right hurtful -to allow to slide (maybe someone is having a BAD day)...or some constructive criticism we need to consider. (Self awareness) 

10 Traits of Emotionally Resilient People 



> 10 Traits of Emotionally Resilient People:
> 
> 
> 1.* They know their boundaries*. Resilient people understand that there is a separation between who they are at their core and the cause of their temporary suffering. The stress/trauma might play a part in their story but it does not overtake their permanent identity.
> 
> 2. *They keep good company*. Resilient people tend to seek out and surround themselves with other resilient people, whether just for fun or when there’s a need for support. Supportive people give us the space to grieve and work through our emotions. They know how to listen and when to offer just enough encouragement without trying to solve all of our problems with their advice. Good supporters know how to just be with adversity—calming us rather than frustrating us.
> 
> 3.* They cultivate self-awareness. *Being ‘blissfully unaware’ can get us through a bad day but it's not a very wise long-term strategy. Self-awareness helps us get in touch with our psychological/physiological needs—knowing what we need, what we don’t need, and when it’s time to reach out for some extra help. The self-aware are good at listening to the subtle cues their body and their mood are sending.
> 
> On the other hand, a prideful stubbornness without emotional flexibility or self-awareness can make us emotional glaciers: Always trying to be strong in order to stay afloat, yet prone to massive stress fractures when we experience an unexpected change in our environment.
> 
> 4. *They practice acceptance*. Pain is painful, stress is stressful, and healing takes time. When we're in it, we want the pain to go away. When we're outside it, we want to take away the pain of those who we see suffering. Yet resilient people understand that stress/pain is a part of living that ebbs and flows. As hard as it is in the moment, it’s better to come to terms with the truth of the pain than to ignore it, repress it, or deny it. Acceptance is not about giving up and letting the stress take over, it's about leaning in to experience the full range of emotions and trusting that we will bounce back.
> 
> 5. *They’re willing to sit in silence. *We are masters of distraction: T.V., overeating, abusing drugs, risky behavior, gossip, etc. We all react differently to stress and trauma. Some of us shut down and some of us ramp up. Somewhere in the middle there is mindfulness-- being in the presence of the moment without judgment or avoidance. It takes practice, but it’s one of the purest and most ancient forms of healing and resilience-building.
> 
> 6. *They don’t have to have all the answers.* The psyche has its own built-in protective mechanisms that help us regulate stress. When we try hard to find the answers to difficult questions in the face to traumatic events, that trying too hard can block the answers from arising naturally in their own due time. We can find strength in knowing that it's okay to not have it all figured out right now and trusting that we will gradually find peace and knowing when our mind-body-soul is ready.
> 
> 7. *They have a menu of self-care habits*. They have a mental list (perhaps even a physical list) of good habits that support them when they need it most. We can all become self-care spotters in our life—noticing those things that recharge our batteries and fill our cup. In part two of this resilience blog series, my guest Karen Horneffer-Ginter, author of Full Cup, Thirsty Spirit: Nourishing the Soul When Life's Just Too Much, shares her 25 ideas for cultivating resilience. Her blog just might inspire you to create your own self-care menu. Karen has taken the menu idea a step further by designing a self-care poster that serves as visual inspiration to nourish the soul when life’s just too much.
> 
> 8. *They enlist their team.* The most resilient among us know how to reach out for help. They know who will serve as a listening ear and, let’s be honest, who won’t! Our team of supporters helps us reflect back what they see when we’re too immersed in overwhelm to witness our own coping.
> 
> We can all learn how to be better supporters on other people's team. In this L.A. Times article, "How not to say the wrong thing", psychologist Susan Silk and co-author Barry Goldman help readers develop a strategy for effectively supporting others and proactively seeking the support we need for ourselves. Remember, it's okay to communicate to our supporters what is and isn't helpful feedback/support for our needs.
> 
> 9. *They consider the possibilities*. We can train ourselves to ask which parts of our current story are permanent and which can possibly change. Can this situation be looked at in a different way that I haven't been considering? This helps us maintain a realistic understanding that the present situation is being colored by our current interpretation. Our interpretations of our stories will always change as we grow and mature. Knowing that today's interpretation can and will change, gives us the faith and hope that things can feel better tomorrow.
> 
> 10. *They get out of their head.* When we're in the midst of stress and overwhelm, our thoughts can swirl with dizzying speed and disconnectedness. We can find reprieve by getting the thoughts out of our head and onto our paper. As Dr. James Pennebaker wrote in his book Writing to Heal, “People who engage in expressive writing report feeling happier and less negative than before writing. Similarly, reports of depressive symptoms, rumination, and general anxiety tend to drop in the weeks and months after writing about emotional upheavals.”
> 
> Writing is one resilience strategy we can literally keep in our back pocket. But there are other ways to get out of our head. Looking back at #5, it’s actually okay to distract ourselves sometimes. That is, it’s okay when the distraction serves to get us out of rumination mode and bring us back to the present moment. Healthy distractions include going to the gym or going for a walk, cooking & baking, volunteering, or any of the self-care items on your self-care menu from #7.


----------



## bunny23

I would have to say this is a balance and depends on the kind of person you are.

My stbx was too dependant - he would literally take on other peoples points of views (like he had none) changed his mind every 2 sec, and then gave me ALL the responsibility in the house and his "happiness"
So I was working 60-80 hour weeks, cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, doing all of the financials and taking care of the cars.

Honestly? It was overwhelming. On top of that I was diagnosed with 2 rare neuro disorders and I got even sicker because I was 100% responsible for EVERYTHING.

I even planned vacations, savings etc.

When we started going to counselling MC said I was his mother.

GROSS

I think there are calculated risks most people should take and allow themselves to let go and stop being so controlling of their own space and life. I was so brainwashed and my self-esteem was so in the gutter that I ended up doing the ultimate in stupidity- quitting my job for the sake of the relationship (which stbx wanted). That did not end well.

So.. there is a balance and a difference between doing someones laundry and making lunch - because you want to.. you should allow BOTH people to give and take in the relationship.

However if you take this too far it can become abusive or make you into a kid who needs a mommy or daddy.


----------



## DesertRat1978

SimplyAmorous said:


> Do you know if your wife orgasms? It doesn't sound like she enjoys sex AT ALL ...Once a month is darn well near what is considered a SEXLESS MARRIAGE (considered 10 or less times a year by Sex Therapists).....
> 
> IF it was THIS BAD BEFORE getting her pregnant, I am afraid you are not going to care for what comes after...you married a VERY low drive woman...was it always like this??
> 
> When you started this thread, I was feeling BAD for the wife thinking you was too independent ignoring her needs...since your last couple posts... I see a completely different picture painted....
> I sympathize with YOU.
> 
> The 1st 12 weeks she likely had some nasty morning sickness, this should die down... MANY women become very horny during pregnancy with all those hormones circulating....Hopefully you will be the beneficiary of some of that ...at least.. Geez!
> 
> How are you not drowning in resentment --- is my question? How often do you desire intimacy? A couple needs to come together and find an acceptable compromise here for each other's happiness.... it's not worth being miserable sexually in a marriage.... it may be less than 10% of what goes on..but when it goes sour, is near non existent ...it has a way of feeling like 90% of the marital problems..... do you feel this way?
> 
> Pleasurable affectionate intimacy is a vital part of the bonding keeping a couple happy / content.


This is going to be a long reply so pardon me. 

First, we have been together for 6.5 years and we started having sex 6 years ago. For the first two years, she was fine. Once or twice a week and she let it be known that she was in the mood. I started graduate school and the well started running dry. Always too busy, too tired, too stressed, not in the mood, too full. 

Her becoming pregnant was a wake-up call for me. I am more than ready to be dad but the possibility of being in a sexless marriage that is more roommates than anything really bothers me. 

One of our major differences is energy. I always seem to have more energy than her. Even before the pregnancy, I am the Energizer Bunny who can't sit still and she lazes around. I am realistic enough to know that most people (male or female) do not have my energy or determination. However, I am thinking that this difference is going to get exacerbated after we have a child. 

I will describe the typical session. Don't worry, its not graphic. We kiss for about two minutes. She breaks out the vibrator and I do my best to add to it. I am more than willing to give oral but she always wants it instead of me. Five minutes later, she wants me in her and usually within five minutes of that, she is wanting to know if I can finish. She seems to enjoy it but I get the sense that she does it more out of duty than desire.

The only symptom that she has had is being really tired and disliking certain foods that she loved before the pregnancy. 

I could be intimate every day. However, I am realistic and think that 2 or 3 times a week would be good. 

I do have some resentment creeping up. I am trying to rationalize it away. I know that is not healthy but just being honest. If her mother or family were in town, she would have the energy to hang out with them and be fun. I think it is a matter of priorities. That is not something that I want to hear but maybe it is the truth.


----------



## DesertRat1978

Quick update:

I have made a conscientious effort to involve her more in my daily efforts. I ride my bike to work usually. It is about 9 miles one way. So, last week I would ride with her to her job and then ride from there. It shortens the distance but it makes the journey quite inconvenient. The result: not much. I pick her brain about her job and such and then we go back to being roommates once we get there.

Another effort that I have made is having her do the shopping. Usually, I would do the shopping and attend to my own needs. This has yielded some results. She complains about it. I view this as a step forward because usually it is just indifference.


----------



## MEM2020

Tyler,
Why did you agree to having a child in a sexless marriage?

Does she resent the fact that you make very little money and don't seem focused on making more? 

Does she resent having to carry most of the financial load? 

Does she work more hours than you do? 

Has she ever tried to get you to amp up the ambition level?



QUOTE=tyler1978;4383026]Only our mundane, daily lives are we so detached. We do not coordinate daily necessary items such as lunch, laundry, and so on. I was under the impression that by not being needy that i was making her sometimes stressful life easier. After work, we are together most of the time. I do not need a lot of "me" time. However, I end up having it anyways. Our time together on nights and weekends gets upstaged by friends, family, and work. In April, our first child will join the world. I am already fourth on the pedestal and soon to be lower. I am not a needy person but this is feeling like roommates.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> 10 Traits of Emotionally Resilient People


SA , I want to thank you for posting this^^^ link.
And it's one of my favorite websites too!

Actually , the first time I stumbled across TAM , it was after reading an article on that website , and following an external link.

Anyway , the list is quite a thought provoking list.
It's 4 AM down here ,and I'm just awoke , getting ready to start my day. I usually take sometime to meditate very early in the morning , and this is inspiring me.

Point #9 resonates with my thought processes , at this moment.

" *9. They consider the possibilities. *We can train ourselves to ask which parts of our current story are permanent and which can possibly change. _*Can this situation be looked at in a different way that I haven't been considering? This helps us maintain a realistic understanding that the present situation is being colored by our current interpretation.*_ Our interpretations of our stories will always change as we grow and mature. Knowing that today's interpretation can and will change, gives us the faith and hope that things can feel better tomorrow."

My philosophy is that my life is like an unfinished book, with my story written in it up to today, the rest is still unwritten.
Everyday , the choices I make , my perception of reality and reaction to issues arising out of it , contribute to that story called 
" My Life."
I like the idea that other possibilities exist, in my life.
I am not a victim.
I am a not prisoner to any circumstance ( thankfully.)
I can't change anybody, _but I can change me._

Again,
Thanks for the effort made in posting this link. ( lol, even though it was posted days ago, I just discovered this thread!) 
Like most of your other posts,
It is a well thought out ,very positive post!

Edit: I just got this quote from the editors at the same link ,
" Psychology Today " website so I thought I'll share it.

" _We have got to get over our view that good team players always say 
" yes."_
- Lianne Darvey.Ph.D


----------



## DesertRat1978

MEM11363 said:


> Tyler,
> Why did you agree to having a child in a sexless marriage?
> 
> Does she resent the fact that you make very little money and don't seem focused on making more?
> 
> Does she resent having to carry most of the financial load?
> 
> Does she work more hours than you do?
> 
> Has she ever tried to get you to amp up the ambition level?
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE=tyler1978;4383026]Only our mundane, daily lives are we so detached. We do not coordinate daily necessary items such as lunch, laundry, and so on. I was under the impression that by not being needy that i was making her sometimes stressful life easier. After work, we are together most of the time. I do not need a lot of "me" time. However, I end up having it anyways. Our time together on nights and weekends gets upstaged by friends, family, and work. In April, our first child will join the world. I am already fourth on the pedestal and soon to be lower. I am not a needy person but this is feeling like roommates.


[/QUOTE]

MEM, do me a favor and do not make assumptions. 

First, about my income it is a long story and one that I am not going to fully dive into here. In short, until August 2014 I am stuck at the current low income level. I have tried and tried and tried to find suitable employment but it is not to be had. She seems to have no resentment towards me on this topic. I could be wrong, it has happened before. If she does then so be it. 

Yes, she does work more hours. I respect that and that is why I do 99% of the housework, cooking, and errands. My ambition level is not a problem. I just finished a masters degree economics while working full time.

About the child, it has been a long time coming and I was not going to back out at the last minute. Honestly, I am very excited about the child but the marriage I am a bit indifferent.


----------



## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> but the marriage I am a bit indifferent.


 
What strikes me about your thread is that your wife seems like a closed book. Inscrutable. So hard to fathom what her story is because she just isn't giving up any information.

Does she give any indication of what she wants, is passionate about? Loves or hates?


----------



## DesertRat1978

always_alone said:


> What strikes me about your thread is that your wife seems like a closed book. Inscrutable. So hard to fathom what her story is because she just isn't giving up any information.
> 
> Does she give any indication of what she wants, is passionate about? Loves or hates?


As i have stated before, her response to my questions about lack of sex are that she is not in the mood. I have asked her to elaborate and she says that she feels nothing. She acknowledges that she had interest in the past but says that she does not have it now. I have then asked her if my once-frequent touching, rubbing, kissing, and affectionate ways did anything for her and she says yes. However, it does nothing to awake the desire for more. 

I have asked her if it is something that I have done and she says no. So, in short, I get shut down. 

She is passionate about her job, her family (mom and dad, brothers and so on), and the upcoming baby. On a purely selfish level, she is passionate about classical music and decorating the house.


----------



## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> Quick update:
> 
> Another effort that I have made is having her do the shopping. Usually, I would do the shopping and attend to my own needs. This has yielded some results. She complains about it. I view this as a step forward because usually it is just indifference.


If she complains when you don't do something, but is indifferent when you do, seems to me she is utterly taking you for granted.

I know that's probably not very helpful ...

I participated quite a lot in the sister thread of this one because if any woman would be branded as "too independent", it would probably be me. I lived alone, travelled the world solo, and am extremely self sufficient. Moreso than most. At the same time, I don't view it as an inconvenience to go out of my way for my SO. I often come home from work exhausted and famished, but I'll often just have a quick snack and wait a couple of hours until he gets home to have dinner. Or I will ask him to join me on errands, and wait until it's convenient for him to go. And so on. Not because I need him to help me or because I know he needs to care for me, but just for the pleasure of the company. The inconvenience is trivial compared to having the shared time together.

You say there is no effect when you make these efforts, but don't forget that while a butterfly flapping its wings can change the world -- those changes might be imperceptible in the short term. And may take a lot of time.


----------



## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> As i have stated before, her response to my questions about lack of sex are that she is not in the mood. I have asked her to elaborate and she says that she feels nothing. She acknowledges that she had interest in the past but says that she does not have it now. I have then asked her if my once-frequent touching, rubbing, kissing, and affectionate ways did anything for her and she says yes. However, it does nothing to awake the desire for more.
> 
> I have asked her if it is something that I have done and she says no. So, in short, I get shut down.
> 
> She is passionate about her job, her family (mom and dad, brothers and so on), and the upcoming baby. On a purely selfish level, she is passionate about classical music and decorating the house.


If she has passion, then it can be awakened sexually. Of this I am fairly certain. But you may have to try a different, perhaps less direct, less focused on sex, approach.

This is really just my experience, and may not apply to your wife, but a lot of women get rather fed up with having their bodies being made the subject of so much attention. Sexual come-ons become little more than yet another guy looking for some thrills. With women's bodies being splayed out all over mass media, and virtually all focus on how they look, how much allure for men they have, etc. and so on, it becomes easy to disassociate. To see it all as external and having nothing to do with them.

A women's passion, sexual and otherwise, has to come from within herself before it will be potent. Otherwise, she is just another body that guys are hot for. Big whoop.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> If she has passion, then it can be awakened sexually. Of this I am fairly certain. But you may have to try a different, perhaps less direct, less focused on sex, approach.
> 
> A women's passion, sexual and otherwise, has to come from within herself before it will be potent. Otherwise, she is just another body that guys are hot for. Big whoop.


Do you have an example to demonstrate this? And how would you think he turns this indirect less focused on sex approach, into actual sex... or do you think she will escalate once the stage is set?

She sounds utterly indifferent to him.


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## DesertRat1978

always_alone said:


> If she has passion, then it can be awakened sexually. Of this I am fairly certain. But you may have to try a different, perhaps less direct, less focused on sex, approach.
> 
> This is really just my experience, and may not apply to your wife, but a lot of women get rather fed up with having their bodies being made the subject of so much attention. Sexual come-ons become little more than yet another guy looking for some thrills. With women's bodies being splayed out all over mass media, and virtually all focus on how they look, how much allure for men they have, etc. and so on, it becomes easy to disassociate. To see it all as external and having nothing to do with them.
> 
> A women's passion, sexual and otherwise, has to come from within herself before it will be potent. Otherwise, she is just another body that guys are hot for. Big whoop.


Not to be argumentative but I have tried being less direct and more affectionate. For a while, I would just randomly come up and kiss her on the cheek, rub her shoulders, etc. Making it rather clear that it was nonsexual. I was under the impression that if I was more affectionate/caring along with doing everything in my power to make her life easier that it would show dividends later. The result: She simply spends more time watching Big Bang Theory and playing Angry Birds.

However, you do bring up a good point. If she has passion for her family and her work then it could possibly be channeled into desire for sex and for me.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Tyler, do you two have any fun together? Like with no sexual context at all? Just out having a really good time, laughing and enjoying each other's company... just the two of you?


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## DesertRat1978

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Tyler, do you two have any fun together? Like with no sexual context at all? Just out having a really good time, laughing and enjoying each other's company... just the two of you?


Yes, we do but not as often as we used to. Our main shared activities are cooking, concerts, going out to eat, and traveling. We are both "foodies" and so when we go to restaurants, we have conversations about how they prepared and what we would do if it was us in the kitchen. When we are out on these dates or road trips, I keep the sexual tension out of it. I just try to be with her and enjoy the time. 

Honestly, it feels and looks like we are on our first date but on a perpetual basis. That stage where you do a lot of talking, innocent touching, but no passionate fireworks. 

I do appreciate what you and the others write on this topic. I have been doing some serious self examination and have to admit that I have came to conclusions that I did not want to.


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## Faithful Wife

always said: "If she has passion, then it can be awakened sexually."

I disagree with this. It can be true for many people, but not always and definitely not a for sure thing.

I have known many people who are totally passionate about something, who are just not that sexual.

Musicians, artists, scientists, dancers...I have known several in these categories and other "passionate people" categories, who just are not sexual people. I don't think it always translates.

I have known many artists, etc. who WERE highly sexual people, too. But they always were, before, during and after their immersion into their other passions.


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## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> Not to be argumentative but I have tried being less direct and more affectionate. For a while, I would just randomly come up and kiss her on the cheek, rub her shoulders, etc. Making it rather clear that it was nonsexual. I was under the impression that if I was more affectionate/caring along with doing everything in my power to make her life easier that it would show dividends later. The result: She simply spends more time watching Big Bang Theory and playing Angry Birds.


The danger with making someone's life easier is that they will simply get used to it and start taking it for granted.

A good relationship will make life better, but not necessarily easier, IMHO. Sometimes we all need a good kick in the pants (metaphorically speaking, of course) to wake us up.


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## DesertRat1978

always_alone said:


> The danger with making someone's life easier is that they will simply get used to it and start taking it for granted.
> 
> A good relationship will make life better, but not necessarily easier, IMHO. Sometimes we all need a good kick in the pants (metaphorically speaking, of course) to wake us up.


I may have to give that a try. Logic tells you that if your wife complains about something and says that is why she has no interest in sex that you will listen and try to solve that problem. Not only to get sex but to be a good spouse. What is good for them is good for you. However, maybe she is simply too comfortable and sees no reason to change. 

I do wonder about having her T levels checked. She has zero interest and never masturbates.


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> always said: "If she has passion, then it can be awakened sexually."
> 
> I disagree with this. It can be true for many people, but not always and definitely not a for sure thing.


You may be right about this. Yet ...

I'm loathe to go all Freudian here, as there are ever so many problems with his theories, but I also think he was on to something. Non-sexual passions are also expressions of the libido. Now maybe not everyone would be willing to channel that into actual sex, but I still think there's at least a solid possibility.


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## Faithful Wife

There are so many more reasons people may be highly or lowly sexual...because being sexual is highly emotional and passionate, but it also involves intimacy and body functioning. So it just doesn't always translate from "passionte person" to "sexually passionate person".


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Do you have an example to demonstrate this? And how would you think he turns this indirect less focused on sex approach, into actual sex... or do you think she will escalate once the stage is set?


This is tough because women are different. I, for example, am a huge fan of massages, in part because I never get them and in part because I love the feeling of a giving physical touch. Clearly, though, OP's wife is wired differently.

However, I do know women who have literally, and sometimes even consciously, channeled their sexual energy into work and other past-times. One friend, for example, was frustrated with dating and tired of looking for a good relationship, and so she chose to just give up and put everything she had into her career and hobbies. For her, a more direct approach would likely have been enough to direct her back towards sex.

Others might be less responsive to that because they are less aware of why -- or even that -- they are shutting down. I know I, for example, went through a phase where I was working impossible hours with an impossible commute and an intense amount of pressure, and I started to shut down sexually just because I needed some quiet time where I could rest and not have to answer to or please anyone. I was barely aware that I was doing this, though, until an illness forced me to re-evaluate my priorities and recognize that I was killing myself over a stupid job -- and that was not what I wanted out of my life.

In my experience, though, there are tons of non-sexual things that can evoke a sexual response: listening to my SO sing or watching how generous he is in helping others. There's more, I'm sure ...


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## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> I may have to give that a try. Logic tells you that if your wife complains about something and says that is why she has no interest in sex that you will listen and try to solve that problem. Not only to get sex but to be a good spouse. What is good for them is good for you. However, maybe she is simply too comfortable and sees no reason to change.
> 
> I do wonder about having her T levels checked. She has zero interest and never masturbates.


I honestly think that a lot of people have no idea why they don't want sex. They just don't. And so when they're asked about it, they say whatever is bugging them at the moment, or whatever seems to be the most plausible explanation.

Unlike some others here on TAM, I don't see this as a deliberate attempt to mislead or to make the spouse jump through hoops. I think it can be a genuine loss for an explanation.

But yes, I do think getting too comfortable and taking one's partner for granted is a very common problem in relationships.


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## DesertRat1978

Quick update:

I have been actively trying to not have us to be so detached. Maybe not so much for sex but to feel closer and not feel like roommates. It bothers me a bit to let my guard down and let someone take care of me even in the slightest. Still not getting laid but it seems as if she is liking this new, less independent husband. 

One example is transportation. She leaves before I do usually and I ride the bike to work. It is about 9 miles one way and can be quite the ordeal in the winter. Northern Nevada is a cold and windy expletive in the winter. I do this because it is shorter and less circuitous than riding from her job or other arrangements. For the last two weeks, we drive to her job and then I ride the bike. It is 8.2 miles but considerably more traffic to deal with. We do not have a lot of lively conversation but she seems to have a bit more pep in her step in the morning. Instead of just silently going through the motions, she asks me if I have this or that. It is not harping on me. It is more of a helpful sort of thing. I do not really need the reminders but it is nice.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> In my experience, though, there are tons of non-sexual things that can evoke a sexual response: listening to my SO sing or watching how generous he is in helping others. There's more, I'm sure ...


I agree, there are tons, but for most of them... I think it behooves the man to avoid initiating if he's going to use indirect approaches to get sex. If you go indirect (which I consider a sexual faux pas, if you will), and subsequently escalate, you risk turning the affectionate behavior into something bad. ie - "he only gives me a massage because he wants sex." Soon, the man will find that too is unsuccessful.

So I tend to think a guy should never use the indirect approach with sexual intentions. Those indirect things ought to stand alone and be freely given with no sexual intention. Otherwise he may do more harm to the relationship than good when she begins to question his motives.

But hell if I know really. There may be nothing that works. My ex was so consumed with motherhood maybe she falls into your case of "too preoccupied to notice". Nothing I tried made a difference, and I'm about as methodical as it gets when it comes to trying different solutions to a problem. I even started keeping a journal. lol


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## anotherguy

I suppose I am the by-product of being a 'latchkey' kid growing up in the 70s. Both my parents worked full time so that we could have a house and try and claw our way up into something that looked like the middle class.

...ever since I can remember - kindergarden actually...I walked to school by myself (or with my brothers), came home and did the little chores we were assigned... I think I started 'helping' to get dinner going probably when I was in..I dont know... 4th..5th grade?

We always had a ton of independance - we would ride our bilkes for miles in any direction - and as long as our prents knew who we were with and that as long as we were home before dark - we were given very wide latitude. (As a parent these days - this seems like a reciipe for disaster doesnt it?)

Got a job early in highschool working part time at a local store and even they gave me responsibilities like opening the store and and interfacing with big account customers...when I was..like 16 or so. I have always tried to have a work ethic like my dad who was a machine working in a factory doing VERY hard labor for 40 years (until it killed him).. but as far as we kids knew... life was good because he had a job and was tireless at it. On weekends he never stopped working around the house either.

When it came time for college my parents were very frank - they didnt have any money to help but wanted to help in any way they could. So I worked part time and went to state school (still MUCH cheaper back then!) and did everything completely by myself. Parents found the money and bought me a used clunker (it was $300) but enough to get around. I loved that car.

Im not bragging. Far from it - it is sad in some ways - glorious in others.

So my point - when my wife tells me to 'go sit on the hammock' which is hard enough when I feel like I have things to do.... and then I see her coming out with something like a plate of cookies... and intent on inflicting some love on me.. I get such a gigantic sense of guilt and shame it is hard to bear. It actually makes me uncomfortable for people to do things for me. These days - I am forever getting gifts from people because I am in IT and have no problem setting up a network or do a little pro bono consulting for companies... or doing some security checking.. but I get so flummoxed I find it hard to simply say 'thank you' and let it be when the inevitable gift cards and fruit baskets and stuff starts coming in.

I must have some deeply ingrained issues.  I have gotten better though.

Its funny how I commented in the 'independant women' thread saying no - women cant be too independant.. but yet I am not so sure when I turn that light on myself and take a look.

sorry - Im a wordy windbag.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> I'm loathe to go all Freudian here, as there are ever so many problems with his theories, but I also think he was on to something. Non-sexual passions are also expressions of the libido. Now maybe not everyone would be willing to channel that into actual sex, but I still think there's at least a solid possibility.


I'll back you up on this. I don't know that its always the case, but for the most part, I strongly correlate higher sexual drive with higher passion for life in general: More activities, more interests, more passion and opinion, and often, more risk tolerance and a bit less focus on being responsible.

I'm magnetically drawn to women like this and they make up the bulk of the women I know who are sexual "freaks" (not derogatory ).


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## DvlsAdvc8

AG, I have a similar issue and self-reliant story to perhaps hang it on. Single mom, and very wide latitude on what I was allowed to do. I have no memory of a time I wasn't coming home from school and making myself dinner (at least a couple times a week), if not dinner for my siblings. I was keenly aware of the help my mom needed and the struggles she had. Honestly, everything I've ever had I've earned with the exception of Christmas and birthday gifts. I was even out of the house on my own at 15. It became a matter of defiance, even pride, that I would get everything I want myself... maybe even a little bitterness that so many of my friends when I was young had so much just handed to them. I always told myself I'll do better than them in spite of their advantages. Its so ingrained into my personality today that I don't even want anything given.

So yeah, I totally identify. How do you respond to compliments? I don't even take most compliments well. Where I'm told a "thank you" is the proper response, my preferred response is to mitigate the compliment or point out weaknesses. ie "Oh, its nothing special." Someone at work complimented my car when I bought it, a 2013 Porsche Boxster, and I quickly point out "Yeah, but its just a Boxster... not a 911 or even a Boxster S. It's alright... but just the base model with some options." Mitigation. I'm not sure why I have to say this, but I always do. A friend of mine has even complained about it - saying I have these nice to have things that they'd love to have, and when complimented, I down them. He says its arrogant that I'm so dismissive of something he'd love to have. Just accepting compliments with a "thank you" actually takes effort for me lol.

I'm told these are core self-esteem issues, perhaps developed in early childhood. Took me quite a while to get a grasp on how it could be a self-esteem issue because I'm probably the most confident person I know. I've concluded rather, that I'm confident in my abilities, but worthiness has nothing to do with ability and somewhere in there is a lack of innate worthiness. So if something isn't earned, it reveals the core worthiness issue.

Oh, and knowing this doesn't really help. I still hate receiving anything I don't feel I've earned... even if I really grit my teeth and try to limit my reaction to "thank you".


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## DesertRat1978

I am not sure that I subscribe completely to the Freudian ideas given above. However, one of our key differences is energy and passion. I am always energetic and ready to go. I have passion for a lot of things and am not shy about it. The wife, even before pregnancy, is relatively lifeless after work. On the weekends, she was/is easily winded and runs out of gas physically/emotionally unless her family is involved. This is what leads me to think that it bothers her that I am so independent. Her family leans on her and I do not.


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## anotherguy

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ...How do you respond to compliments? I don't even take most compliments well. Where I'm told a "thank you" is the proper response, my preferred response is to mitigate the compliment or point out weaknesses... Took me quite a while to get a grasp on how it could be a self-esteem issue because I'm probably the most confident person I know. I've concluded rather, that I'm confident in my abilities, but worthiness has nothing to do with ability and somewhere in there is a lack of innate worthiness. _*So if something isn't earned...*_*[/b*


*

ugh, this hits home so much its hard to read - I really understand.

I try to blame some of it on some hard-core catholic indoctrination that I suspect has something to do with it..but (shrug) no matter. I real am happy and healthy and well adjusted and all the rest... but this is a quirk I have - so I get it.

I'm a semi-hack photographer in my free time. I take pictures that are fantastic and I get compliments all the time on some of them. I have some 48" blowups on my walls at home that are stunning and engrossing and interesting. I have taken impromptuportraits of people and they say 'that is the best picture anyone has ever taken of me, period.'

for a scenic - someone says "Wow! did you take that? That is really, really awesome - I am very impressed!"

me: Not really. I use the volume method. I take 1,000 pictures and once in a while I get lucky... 

away... enough of me... sheesh.*


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## anotherguy

random comment: ...it is widely agreed that Freud was wrong in just about everything he suggested.

he had a few relevant and important ideas - such as the unconcious mind - but most of his defining ideas and concepts - in detail - were wrong.


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## Faithful Wife

Really? Because my brother killed my father so he could have sex with my mother, but they explained to us in grief counseling that this was normal.


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## anotherguy

Faithful Wife said:


> Really? Because my brother killed my father so he could have sex with my mother, but they explained to us in grief counseling that this was normal.


:lol:


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## Faithful Wife

Thank you, I'll be here all week! :yawn2:


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## DesertRat1978

Quick update or tidbit:

So the wife is out of town for four days. We are good friends so I text her. Her responses are quite delayed and short. One of her responses was (in short), that we can talk when she gets home and leave her alone in the meantime. We are not latched together at the hip throughout the week so I am a bit puzzled at how she needs a break from me. Between 6 am and 7 pm on an average day, we lead totally separate lives. Also, often we do our own thing at night. This level of detachment is really starting to bother me.


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## treyvion

tyler1978 said:


> Quick update or tidbit:
> 
> So the wife is out of town for four days. We are good friends so I text her. Her responses are quite delayed and short. One of her responses was (in short), that we can talk when she gets home and leave her alone in the meantime. We are latched together at the hip throughout the week so I am a bit puzzled at how she needs a break from me. Between 6 am and 7 pm on an average day, we lead totally separate lives. Also, often we do our own thing at night. This level of detachment is really starting to bother me.


You must have meant "we aren't latched at the hip" during the week...


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## DesertRat1978

treyvion said:


> You must have meant "we aren't latched at the hip" during the week...


Thanks for the heads up. Edit made.


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## always_alone

tyler1978 said:


> Quick update or tidbit:
> This level of detachment is really starting to bother me.


I can see why. That's a lot of detachment! You started this thread asking if you were too independent, but is it possible that she's the one that is too independent?

I used to annoy my SO endlessly by failing to "check in" when I was going to be later than I thought, or had a change in plans, or whatever, and it took me quite a while to get used to that. I never really had anyone who cared where I was before, so it didn't occur to me that I should tell him.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Wow! Leave her alone in the meantime? Yikes.


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## DesertRat1978

always_alone said:


> I can see why. That's a lot of detachment! You started this thread asking if you were too independent, but is it possible that she's the one that is too independent?
> 
> I used to annoy my SO endlessly by failing to "check in" when I was going to be later than I thought, or had a change in plans, or whatever, and it took me quite a while to get used to that. I never really had anyone who cared where I was before, so it didn't occur to me that I should tell him.


I have not been making a ton of sense being that I keep grasping for straws at explaining our complete void of passion/desire/sex life. In the beginning, I thought that maybe my independent ways were at the root of this current dilemma. I still think that I could work on integrating others into my life more. However, the more I think about this the more I think that she may have to work on it as well.


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## always_alone

anotherguy said:


> random comment: ...it is widely agreed that Freud was wrong in just about everything he suggested.
> 
> he had a few relevant and important ideas - such as the unconcious mind - but most of his defining ideas and concepts - in detail - were wrong.


I know, I know. I'm a bit embarrassed that I even brought him up. Still, some concepts like sublimation do make some amount of sense


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## Adelais

"Many women need emotional connection in order to really desire sexual intimacy, which you don't really have if you're living parallel, roommate-style lives."

I could not have said it any better.


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## Faithful Wife

tyler...I didn't know where else to put this, so I'm thread jacking you for just a moment. I don't think I can make a thread for this in SIM without it getting deleted. Then I thought about your thread because I really think you might find this interesting....even if it doesn't have anything to do with your sitch.

I am watching this movie on Netflix right now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYMh9zkt6r4

It is a documentary about asexual people.

It is very enlightening to watch for anyone who doesn't know what asexual means...but it also touches on various sex drive issues, other levels of sexual proclivity, the possible connection between asperger's and asexuality...it is really fascinating.

I think anyone who is in love with a person who seems to have literally NO sex drive would benefit from at least watching this.

Now I know your wife is far from being asexual...but you might hear some interesting information in this movie. For instance, among asexual people, some of them still crave and have romantic (sexless) relationships. Some don't. But the point being, it is quite possible for a completely sexless person to still want to be married. It may not make sense to anyone who is sexual, but it is still true.


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