# Weird Bro-in-law issue



## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

OK this is going to be a weird one.

Here is the background: Wife and I have been married for almost 5 years together for 7. We're both in our early 30's. Great marriage, friendship, sex life and open communication. We are very simpatico. Except where it comes to her brother.

Her bro is 12/13 years younger then her. Her family is very liberal, hippie type. Their house is really kinda a commune with a few other families houses on the property. They are "clothingly challenged" shall we say. But, I get along very well with her parents. when the wife first started taking me to her parent's, they tried very hard to make me comfortable and over the years we have met in the middle. It is still weird to stay in a place with no interior doors (except for the bathroom) but her mom puts up a curtain on our room's doorway when we are there. They see the human body as a marvel of nature and its processes do not need to be hidden. When there were younger kids around they were careful of being to open about certain things.

Her bro is the youngest person there and as a surprise child for the parents he is like the apple of their eye. he can do no wrong. Since he was at some artsy boarding school when I was dating his sister I did not see much of him. And when I did it was when we went on vacations with them. Generally speaking I like him. He is an awesome musician and very smart. But his parents and sister indulge him in everything.

He FINALLY graduated from high school last May and has been bumming around "finding himself" ever since. In October his dad asked if I would take him under my wing and help him to grow up. I did. Got him a job doing good honest labor and with a little help here and there he is doing well. But he is still immature in many ways. My wife and I have had some conflicts over this. She is just like her mother and from her mannerisms toward him to the way she speaks to him, she treats him like a child. Getting him to learn more about being a man has been a process for her just as much as for him.

We agreed that he needed to pay rent (very small and mostly symbolic) and do some chores around the house. I found that my wife was giving him the rent money because he was spending all of his. She was also doing his chores while he sat around the house. We have worked this out.

Setting these boundaries for him while he is in our house has put some strain on us. And one particular area seems to be a flashpoint.

The weird part:

My wife and I are pretty much nudists around our house but when he came we covered up a littlemore. My wife finds it kinda funny since her bro is used to being nude around family and friends. But I am not as comfortable with it. 

A few times when he first got here I came home to him watching porn in our living room. Spoke to my wife about it. She has no prob with the porn (neither do I since we watch it ourselves) but agrees that he should be doing it in his room. We talked to him about it and for the most part he has been good about it. But he tends to forget to close his door. I keep reminding him.

My wife seems to think I am a little too hung up on this and not taking into account that in their family it is no big deal to be open about it. But to be honest her parents and the folks there are not as “open” as bro in law. And nobody has ever put boundaries on his behavior. However, I am beginning to think that something else is going on that his family has been blind to.

Last week she and I were having a romantic evening. I went to get some wine from the kitchen to find her brother enjoying porn in the living room again. I felt it was my wife’s turn to deal with it and went back to get her. While she went to talk with him I got the wine. She rejoined me a little while later and only said it would never happen again. We went back to our evening without talking about it more.

It was not until the next AM that I asked her about what was said. She said that all that she did was tell him that he was not allowed to use the living room for that anymore and he said “OK.” I asked her why that had taken so long. Her response was shocking. She said that when she got there he was almost done so she just waited for him to finish!!! WTF!!!!! 

I admit that I probably got more heated than I should have. But come on! It is really weird to sit next to your brother while he does that!!!! I also admitted to her that I thought her brother was maybe a little too close to her. She totally blew her stack on that one. I laid out my evidence of what she does that he could mis-interpret. Her response was that he was a young boy with urges and curiosities and that her mother did the same for him when he was at home. I pointed out that he was not a little boy. And that was why their father asked me to see what I could do. My family is definitely from the “school of hard knocks” variety.

She has been very pissed with me for the last week and is very hurt that I would think what I did. However, I do not believe that there is anything “going on.” Merely that their indulgence of him has gone WAY to far and is going to make life hard for him.

Yesterday I found solid evidence that her brother does look at her inappropriately. I need to have this out in the open with my wife before I deal with it with him. I am not going to kick him out (he moves to Australia in 3 months) but I am going to make sure that he knows that this and other behaviors that have nothing t do with this are not suitable.

What I am wondering is how to bring this up with my wife? When I show her what I found (accidentally) there is no way she can refute me. I am hoping that this will be a wake up call for what she and her family have done to this kid by being so open and lenient with him.

Any ideas?


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## steve71 (Feb 5, 2010)

I admire the way you're dealing with this very difficult issue and I hope this boy - who sounds marooned in early childhood - can learn from you before taking his problems out into the big wide world - and getting a terrible shock.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks Steve71. You are right, he is marooned.

This is the first time I have had so much difficulty in talking to my wife about something. We are usually so open with each other.

Also, she is very different from her family (except for with her brother). She is not anywhere near as hippie like. Not that there is anything wrong with that outlook on life. Just we are not like that. For the most part.

Also, her parents let her grow up to be the person she wanted to be. With the exception of 2 times that I know of, they have never objected to or not supported her choices. I was witnessed one of them. And her mother did not speak to her for a month afterward. Thankfully they did not blame me!! 

Anyway, any thoughts on broaching this topic with her. My worry is that she is going to think I am just jealous and making things up. Which I can prove that I am not. And I am not jealous of him. I want them to be close. But he need to grow out of this.

Should I just leave it alone since He leaves soon?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You'll never change your wife on this. She IS her mother. That's just the way it works: we turn into our mothers.

What you CAN do, is have some good, long, intimate, private discussions with HIM. He sorely needs some moral guidance, and obviously didn't get it from his dad. Not that what he does is wrong so much as what he does won't fly in normal society. And unless he plans on living with his parents for the rest of his life, he needs to learn what 'real life' is going to be like. No doubt he looks up to you. Take advantage of that. Take him fishing. Take him hiking. Whatever, just go out and be alone with him so you have time to have those talks, about what he can expect in 'real life.' Make sure you point out that brothers and sisters do not interact on that level.

I read an interesting thing about that recently; it said that in early days, things like covering up and having sex behind a cover instead of in front of your kids weren't done out of purity, but rather for the preservation of the society, because societies found that children didn't assimilate properly when exposed to such things. Fascinating stuff; might not hurt to read up on it before you have those talks.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanks Turnera. If you remember the reference please send it my way. I will look to.

Oddly enough she and I had a talk about parenting just before her brother came to stay. We have been thinking and preparing to have kids and she brought up the idea of parenting classes. She does not want to be like her mother. She is already very different from her parents.

She says that the way her parents brought her up may have worked in that setting but she does not want to go that route. Also, on an intellectual level she sees how her brother's rearing was different from hers and how it has caused problems. I guess it is a good thing that at least for the next year we do not plan on trying to get pregnant. it gives us time to work on this.

I do plan on talking to him about this very soon. First, I just hoped to make sure she and I are at least somewhat on the same page. I think I need to show her, or at least tell her what he has been doing (hacked our computer and is stealing our intimate home vids and pictures).

Am I wrong? Would this just be rubbing her nose in it and I should ONLY talk to him about it?

I have already decided not to tell his parents. I know they would be devastated and the mom may try and partially blame her daughter. At least at first.

We have the house to ourselves next weekend so I am going to bring it up. Just not sure how best to do it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The best way to talk is to have something else to do. Going for walks is the absolute best, IMO. Why? Because you are not facing each other, so there is no 'threat' or antagonism. You are both on the same path, going to the same destination, together, and you have nothing else to do but talk. All the important things I ever talked to my D19 about took place during walks around our local lakes, typically walking the dog (another great excuse to go for a walk).

As young as he is, and as much as he probably looks up to you, he will probably be eager to hear what you think about things like stealing pics, etc. He likely never heard any of this stuff.

Another valuable thing you can talk to him about is what it's like to be the spoiled brat of the family - of course, not in those terms! Give him some psychology speak about what happens when a kid is given no boundaries, no obligations, never held accountable...the kind of adult he can become if he doesn't learn that he will face consequences, or if he is never expected to accomplish a lot.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Well,

The dog walk with my wife worked! And she was the one to bring it up. 

She was at least willing to hear more of what I had to say. I could see from her eyes she is starting to get what I am seeing.

So, work has given me an excuse to leave town for a couple of days this week. I would normally just do the extra commute but this presents the opportunity for her to really see what I mean without me there to cloud the issue. 

On the positive side, it gives me a chance to crash with my brother.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cool! I was actually suggesting you go on a walk with the BIL, but hey! Good for you!


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Well,

My time away has helped my wife really see what is going on. It is amazing how if you plant the right seeds in someone's mind they can open up to see something they have been blind to.

She is now all fired up to send him to counseling. But I want to have a talk with him first. I think it would just drive him away if we were to suddenly spring counseling on him.

Tuesday is his day off so that is D-Day. I'm going to take him hiking.

Now I just need to figure out the way to open up the conversation.

I guess this is really my first parenting lesson.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

"I wanted to talk to you today, because there's been this issue, and I think you need to hear about it..."


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

There aren't any consequences. You keep dealing with things using measured responses, rationally and reasonably. 

What is this kid, 19 ... 20? But his behavior sounds about 12. So treat him that way. Scare the sh!t out of him. Part of role modeling is living up to expectations, setting boundaries and being serious as a heart attack about what happens if those boundaries are crossed.

You will be doing him a far larger favor than continuing to treat him with kid gloves and reinforcing that nobody is going to do a blessed thing when he ignores boundaries or expectations and decides to do the five knuckle shuffle on your living room sectional, or worse.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great point.


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## steve71 (Feb 5, 2010)

Hi Remus, good to see you're making some progress on this very difficult problem. I think your 'softly, softly' approach is exactly right - this unfortunate boy may be more than simply maladjusted, he might have some serious psychological problems. In your situation I'd go very carefully until I had a full understanding of what makes him tick.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Well,

I have to say that it worked out better than I thought. I took him hiking and after we got past his denials then his embarrassment, we were able to have a very good talk. Turns out there is more going on in his head than I would have guessed. But then again, thinking about myself when I was 14, some of the things he is dealing with now seemed like the end of the world for me too.

But there is the difference. He is 18, 19 soon, and should be more mature than this. But I think we have a good start here and will work on it. We have some new house rules and he had to surrender his laptop for me to re-format. I kept an image just in case.

Wednesday night he pulled my wife aside and confessed and apologized. It weirded her out at first, but it was a good start for them. So I am going to make sure he and I have the chance to talk regularly. I was amazed at how he was able to open up. 

I think he had really been looking for someone to talk to about some things. In the absence of that he latched onto and escalated behaviors that offered him a diversion.

We shall see...

Thanks for all of the advice.

Remus


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I am SO happy for you guys! And thanks for letting us know!

I hope you know that you are going to be his 'father' for the rest of his life. Not in terms of running his life, but in terms of being the respected figure he looks up to and emulates, so that you will be proud of him.

I love happy endings! Great job!


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Well. I have to say that after 3 weeks things are going OKish. We have had some good talks and I want to say he is starting down the right path. But last week my wife decided to look at what he had done. That was a bad move. Combined with an incident, not really his fault,has made my wife uncomfortable with him alone. She's afraid to have sex with him in the house out of fear he will be spying on us. We had to find a secluded spot and do it in our car last night because we were both hard up from not doing it for a couple of days. 

He will only be with us for another 2 months so I really want to work on them repairing their relationship. 

I think I am not equipped to really handle this on my own. He admits to being obsessed with her, knows now it is REALLY wrong. But has trouble when she is near him. He is also trying to avoid her now.

Anyone have ideas of what kind of counselor I should take him/them to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think I'd just go for a real psychologist for him, to have someone to talk to.

If you want to do both together, maybe a church person?


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

My Wife and I agree that we should start out with a family counselor first. Depending on what he says we may go for the psychologist.

I have to say that it is making for a chilly home life when two of the people there love each other but are too uncomfortable to spend much time together.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Conversation is always the best option in such a situation. I promise you.

If you could all just sit down in the same room and air it all out, you'll be much more comfortable - and accepting - with each other.

Think about it.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Hi Tunera,

Thanks for all your support and advice on this.

Actually, all 3 of us had one of those sit downs today. I was the mediator and they both came out and said what they were feeling and thinking. Part of the reason we have decided to go the counseling route is what he said when he opened up. And he said he would like to talk to someone because he can't seem to shake his fantasy.

My wife and I know that now this is in the open and he knows it will never come true, it will probably fade with time. But, even though he moves out in a couple of months we want to do what we can to help him and make sure they can have a normal brother and sister relationship.

And lets face it if he has problems with infatuation to this degree now, he could have serious trouble with future relationships.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

turnera said:


> Conversation is always the best option in such a situation. I promise you.
> 
> If you could all just sit down in the same room and air it all out, you'll be much more comfortable - and accepting - with each other.
> 
> Think about it.


How exactly do you get 'comfortable' with the knowledge that your wife's brother ... who lives with you, has a thing for his sister, your wife?

I mean Remus hasn't exactly spelled it out, but I assumed this was the case with the masturbation thing. He wanted to be seen - by her. I worked in a program for DYS kids years ago. My case, my kid, was using this behavior with female staff.

There is a world of difference between being open, honest, and sharing in dealing with run-of-the-mill family dynamic or relationship issues, and sexually acting out. I respectfully submit that you are way out of your league - even if you are a counselor. It's too close. Is there any good reason that this kid is still living with you other than his parents couldn't handle him?

Are there psychological or developmental delays at play here is well?

If I'm way off the mark, I apologize. I have inferred my belief based upon what you have, and haven't said.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Hey Deejo

You are on the mark about what is going on. And yes we need prof help on this. Neither of us are counselors.

He is in our house b/c their dad asked me to help him grow up. Also knowing all this now I would never want to kick him aside when he needs help. But I have to say that in most all other respects he has been growing up since he came to stay.

I think he may have some development issues. But if I thought for a minute he was a danger to us he would be out. I think the fact that he knows he has a probvlem is a good sign though.

He leaves the country soon and we want to do all we can to set him up as wellas we can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

To be clear, I admire what you are trying to do. It just strikes me as one of those circumstances where the best of intentions lands you smack in the middle of a mine field.

Wouldn't want to see your relationship with your wife suffer as a result. Must say I chuckled about the car bit ... hope you guys did too.

I sincerely hope that things smooth out for you, and your brother in law. As the parent of an autistic child, based upon some of your descriptions, I was wondering if your brother in law is possibly on the spectrum.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

We got a good laugh out of our adventure in the car. Neither of us remember the back seats of cars being that cramped!! :scratchhead:

Wife and I agree that we will only go so far with this. And we have told their dad about it. He has agreed to let us take the first crack at it with him and the counselor. Which will be next week.

I am really curious to find out if he has some sort of issues like that too.


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## Remus (Feb 15, 2010)

Just wanted to give you all an update.

BIL's counseling has been going well. He did not test as having any problems. His issues seem to revolve around attachment. As a twilight child for his parents he feels disconnected from them and latched onto his sister. Because of their age differences and the nature of their home life he did not really get to know her until he was begining to become aware of sexuality and so....

This is my very abbreviated version of what his doctor told us.

I hate to say it but my wife and I are somewhat glad he is leaving in a few weeks. This has definitely put a strain on our intimacy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I love how counselors can figure things out for us like that.

Good work. You've probably helped him a LOT.


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