# Ready to make changes, she isn't



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Background: I have been self employed for 14 yrs. My income fluctuates significantly year to year. We have always lived within our means so the low yrs have not been much of a problem. Our only debt is the mortgage which has less than 2 yrs left. Wife stayed at home raising the 3 kids. Now that they are getting older she teaches fitness classes part time. She is maxed out on the number she can teach (physically) and only makes several thousand a year. We had a modest savings account for safety net. We have plenty of toys (camper, quads, tractor, bass boat, etc) which have always been bought with cash. We have a 400,000+ home with only 25k remaining. 

Problem: This year business has been very poor - worst year by far. Trying all I can do to improve business but not much is working. Who knows what next year will bring. We've cut most every corner possible with finances. We're covering basic bills but barely, and have had to use much of the savings for a couple large bills that came in. Kids qualify for reduced lunch at school. Our 'toys' sit there because we cant afford to use them. I want to start selling stuff we don't need, pay off balance of mortgage, and build savings back up to a few months of reserves. I even offered to sell only "my" extra stuff and not hers. Without the mtg payment ($1300/mo) we should be much more comfortable even in this crappy low year. She's willing to go thru closets and sell 'garage sale' items (old toys/clothes/etc) but nothing more. I told her that $5-$10 here and there wont do squat to fix the situation. She will NOT part with the big toys, period. Says that down the road we'll want them and it will cost way more to buy them over again so we'd be wasting money. (Took keys away so I couldnt sell the stuff.) True, but in the meantime we're barely getting by and I'm working my tail off and being stressed to the max! Now this past week she goes and signs up my 15yr old AND herself for an overseas school trip at $4500 each! I'm at the end of my rope. Of course now the relationship is stressed - constant tension. I feel like a failure because I cant provide them the life they insist on having. Since she wont listen to my suggestion and hasnt come up with a better option, I'm at a loss. Don't suggest counseling - been down that path - she will NOT go ("waste of money, cant afford it"). Help!


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Your wife is behaving in an unacceptable and childish way. Going and spending $9000 on trips behind your back when you're already expressing concerns about money is disrespectful to you and your marriage. You are not a "failure" and it is not your job as a man to provide whatever your wife wants, without limits -- by this standard, every man would be a failure because there are always more things a person can want. 

I wonder if it's possible to get the money back? 

She is in complete denial about your financial situation, and I wonder if this is partly because she has no role in managing the finances. Have you ever actually sat down and done a budget together? Can you show her hard numbers? Can you show her "that $9000 means we're not going to have money for x"? Maybe if she felt there were actual consequences she'd think differently.

All that said, I do wonder if there's another solution. She may have a point about selling off the toys, if it's really true that this is "just a bad year" and things are expected to improve. You won't get ideal value for the boat, camper etc. and it's likely that if you want them again in a year or two when things are better you'll wind up spending more (although I suppose you could buy used for around the same price you sell). 

Are there any refinance options for your home? This is something to be considered carefully, especially since it sounds like it's important to you to finish paying off the mortgage. But rates are very low right now.

Regardless of what financial approach you take, you have to get your wife more on the same page with you about money, i.e. she has to wake up to reality. Does she ever show signs of a spending problem, like impulsive huge purchases or shopping addiction?


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Also, does she work? Perhaps you can tell her "We need to sell the boat so we can pay our bills. If you want to keep it, you need to get a job that pays enough that we can keep it."


----------



## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Cancel the trip. Go to where ever she had to plunk down the money and be done with it. 

It's obvious that she has no financial boundaries and needs to learn them. If she gets pissed, let her. Fat lot of good a trip is going to do if you can't make ends meet. Someone has to take charge of the situation and if you don't, pretty soon you'll have nothing. If she goes on a rant about it, then tell her to go find a good job somewhere. She doesn't seem to understand that you can't pull money out of the air.

I understand your position. I was self employed for 31 years and when it was good, it was good, but when it was bad..........good lord it was bad. I worked outside and was a slave to the weather so I had to make my money for a whole year in the spring, summer and fall and a lot of times, spring and fall didn't go as planned. 

Like I said. She needs to get a full time job so tell her to pack her tights away and go find a job to supplement her life style.


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

thanks for the input John. Actually, SHE does all the routine finances (pays the bills, balances checkbook, etc) so she is very aware of what comes in and goes out. My post stated her work status. Enjoys what she does part time (which is good) but doesnt make much. With this job market and having been out of work force for 15 yrs, her options would be very limited. There is no way of knowing what the next yr or two will be like in my industry (real estate related). It has changed dramatically following the recession and housing crisis so we're in unchartered waters. I constantly look into new avenues for more business and take advanced industry-specific training to improve myself to try to gain a competitive advantage. I just need to find a way to get thru this and move forward. Its driving a wedge and negatively affecting the relationship. I dont want that. But it takes two.....


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Argument for the trip is that they will do fundraising to pay for it. I told her that will barely put a dent in it. She thinks they can raise much of it. I said she and my 15 yr old would be better off getting part time jobs - they'd make more that way than selling candy bars and frozen pizzas. You can imagine how well that went over.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Well geez, doesn't sound like she's really the one who should be managing the finances, with that kind of magical thinking. You say she "pays the bills" but do you actually have a budget together? 

I think it's time to build your backbone a little - you're going to have to be firmer with her about this and not just fall back on "well that didn't go over well" because she gets upset. Stop being so afraid of her being upset and start facing her. And again, concrete numbers always help -- "You're going to raise $9000 by selling $2 candy bars? That's 4500 candy bars. You have one month to do it (or however long they have). That's 150 candy bars a day, every day, for 30 days. How do you plan on doing that?"


----------



## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Well its not really as bad as you make out. Your wife and child do have a plan. Their intention is not just to go and waste money.

She does have faith in you that 'down' the road things will improve.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

accept1 said:


> Well its not really as bad as you make out. Your wife and child do have a plan. Their intention is not just to go and waste money.
> 
> She does have faith in you that 'down' the road things will improve.


What he described is not a "plan." Maybe they do have a plan, but I just see a fantasy -- spend money however you want and justify it with "well, somehow we'll make it up by fundraising."


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Lets take the class trip part out of the discussion and get back to the main point. Finances are tighter than ever in our 18yr marriage. I'm majorly stressed about it because I'm the bread winner/provider. She is aware but doesnt see it as a crisis requiring significant changes. I see a pretty easy solution - it would just require going without a few big toys (mainly my toys I might add, not hers). I'd trade the toys for peace any day. She disagrees and wont let me sell them. So I can: (a) keep my mouth shut, stay stressed and irritable, and hope the problem corrects itself before blowing up (b) sell the stuff behind her back, then pay the consequences for that (c) hijack the family finances so she cant access anything other than what I give her and pay the consequences for that too or (d) figure out a way to make her understand what this is doing to me and come to a consensus. B & C are really not even options. I like D but dont know how to get there. Any other opinions how to make my case?


----------



## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

Let us start again.
I believe that the one who makes the money should be the one who decides how to spend it. But that has to be implemented straight away in the marriage.

I also know that money arguments are the hardest to resolve.

Your wife the way you portray her apart from the trip doesnt sound like a spendthrift. She seems responsible with money.

You made money in the past and spent it on 'toys' instead of saving. Being self employed means you have to work for you money and not let others work for it for you.

You may be barely getting by but you still seem to be. Your toys can wait to be sold when youre not. 

Try to explain to us why you think its a crisis and she doesnt.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

accept1 said:


> Try to explain to us why you think its a crisis and she doesnt.


You don't think having your kid qualify for reduced-price lunch at school is an indicator of a bad financial situation?


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

accept1: you summarized everything quite well for the most part. We are both generally responsible with finances. The "my" toy and "her" toy phrasing I used isnt quite right. They were all joint decisions and only made when we had the money available to spend above and beyond our normal savings. But some are more 'mine' and some are more 'hers' if that makes sense. None of the toy purchases have been in the last 2 yrs. We HAVE always kept a decent savings to fall back on both in my business and at home but that has dwindled to a bare minimum now. One hiccup and we're in trouble. Her limited income used to be for a family vacation fund. We had to rob it to pay the summer property taxes and propane bill. If the furnace goes out this winter, the well or septic system (which are near their lifespan), the tranny or engine on our older vehicles, etc then we'll be in crisis mode. I feel the prudent thing to do is take steps now before it becomes a crisis while we're still on the edge but not all the way in one.


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> accept1: you summarized everything quite well for the most part. We are both generally responsible with finances. The "my" toy and "her" toy phrasing I used isnt quite right. They were all joint decisions and only made when we had the money available to spend above and beyond our normal savings. But some are more 'mine' and some are more 'hers' if that makes sense. None of the toy purchases have been in the last 2 yrs. We HAVE always kept a decent savings to fall back on both in my business and at home but that has dwindled to a bare minimum now. One hiccup and we're in trouble. Her limited income used to be for a family vacation fund. We had to rob it to pay the summer property taxes and propane bill. If the furnace goes out this winter, the well or septic system (which are near their lifespan), the tranny or engine on our older vehicles, etc then we'll be in crisis mode. I feel the prudent thing to do is take steps now before it becomes a crisis while we're still on the edge but not all the way in one.


So have you explained it that way to her, in those totally reasonable terms? Can you?


----------



## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

I am sorry but I still fail to understand why you must sell your toys now. Why cant it wait until you need to.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

accept1 said:


> I am sorry but I still fail to understand why you must sell your toys now. Why cant it wait until you need to.


Cause he wants to pay off his mortgage so he can bank the $1300 per month.

Personally, I'd really consider selling "my" toys, even if her knickers get in a twist. But... You have a lot of equity in your house that you can take out, even as a temporary measure. You also mention property taxes on a "summer property", which implies that's another resource you could ditch.

To me, the bigger issue is that you and your wife aren't on the same page financially, and you both apparently have ineffective conflict resolution techniques. How did you guys survive 18 years like that?

C


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

accept1 said:


> I am sorry but I still fail to understand why you must sell your toys now. Why cant it wait until you need to.


Because maybe he wants to have some emergency money. Trying to sell your boat the day you need a new roof on your house or the transmission in your car goes is not the ideal way to do it.


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

accept1: Right, what John said. Proactive instead of reactive. If you get in a bind and have to unload something fast you'll usually take a big hit on price. Most of all - peace of mind. Not living on the edge of a crisis. Not having to eat PBJ and ramen noodles. Not having to wear the same worn out shoes a year after their prime. Not having to say no to every friends request to meet for lunch. Not having to wear clothes too big for me (lost weight, cant buy new). 

PBear: "summer property taxes" FYI -Here we have a summer bill and winter bill. No, we do not have a 2nd home. 

John: Yes I have. Response: "oh, it'll be fine. we'll figure it out when we get there". Back to my proactive vs. reactive statement...


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

the imbalance in your relationship is astounding. You come across like a total wimp in your marriage. She can, without consulting you, drop $9k on an unnecessary expense, but you are not allowed to sell items worth money in order to protect the family finances. She took the keys? Take them back. Get some control. Let her know she is not the head of your home, you are. You make the money, and you are happy to consult with her, but final decisions are not hers they are yours. I doubt based on your wimp status you can do any of this, as you are simply too afraid.
BTW- she has little respect for you, you are a doormat to her. Your job to provide the funds, her job to have fun, do as she wishes. Like a true, useless, trophy wife should. If you want this kind of wife, then fine, but in order for it to work, you need total control of the finances. I would open a bank account she is not aware of and start getting money stashed away. At some point, you will need it.
My guess is, the day she leaves you and takes it all, is the day you will be happy you started the account. As you are nothing but a paycheck to her, as soon as restrictions are put on her spending, and most certainly once the kids are out of the home for good. She will start to look for more to feed her selfish nature. Guess what that means... You better man up, or some other guy will. Possibly when she is half dressed teaching fitness to a young wealthy man, that wants to have a Mrs. Robinson affair. She is a classic case for this type of behavior and I would be very mindful of her selfish behavior in other areas of your marriage, more than just money.


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

noguts - you are rude. you may have an interesting point or two but i cant get beyond the name calling and far-reaching accusations of your message to take it seriously. I dont think that wanting to make joint decisions with my wife makes me a wimp. Your choice of words indicates you are a control freak and hot head(you may not be, but thats how you come across). I suggest finding a different forum to hang out on since advice giving is not your strongsuit


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> noguts - you are rude. you may have an interesting point or two but i cant get beyond the name calling and far-reaching accusations of your message to take it seriously. I dont think that wanting to make joint decisions with my wife makes me a wimp. Your choice of words indicates you are a control freak and hot head(you may not be, but thats how you come across). I suggest finding a different forum to hang out on since advice giving is not your strongsuit


:iagree:


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The lack of balance is right on. Your wife does not understand how this is affecting you physically and mentally.

The taking of the keys to prevent you selling the items is totally uncalled for - WTH? You want to discuss family finances with your wife and your wife wants to dictate to you. But, you're the one worrying yourself sick over how YOU are going to earn the money.

Try reading up on the nice guy syndrome. Time to change your approach with your wife. Good luck.


----------



## jac70 (Sep 7, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> The lack of balance is right on. Your wife does not understand how this is affecting you physically and mentally.
> 
> The taking of the keys to prevent you selling the items is totally uncalled for - WTH? You want to discuss family finances with your wife and your wife wants to dictate to you. But, you're the one worrying yourself sick over how YOU are going to earn the money.
> 
> Try reading up on the nice guy syndrome. Time to change your approach with your wife. Good luck.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

It seems to me that no-one is steering your ship right now...

Your wife is in la-la land by what you describe and you're too scared of 'rocking the boat' to insist on doing something important for your finances or even insisting on a proper discussion about it.

Wife gets to make decisions (bad decisions at that).....like expensive school trips, who can sell what toys. But you get...no say it would seem.

:scratchhead: That doesn't sound right does it?

It seems that you're trying to do the right thing and save your family from a financial crisis and you're too worried about upsetting the wife...causing conflict. 

You can't do that in life or marriage... but I'm sure you already know this...

Not being able to discuss an important issue and come to a conclusion that leaves both of you happy is your problem here... this time the issue is money/finances. Do you have problems discussing/compromising on other issues in the marriage?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The real issue here is she is refusing to either:
- Significantly boost her own income or
- Make painful cuts

The subtext of all this is: YOU are responsible for the family income. She won't openly say those words, but her latest 9k choice makes it clear. 



QUOTE=UserName1;5056786]thanks for the input John. Actually, SHE does all the routine finances (pays the bills, balances checkbook, etc) so she is very aware of what comes in and goes out. My post stated her work status. Enjoys what she does part time (which is good) but doesnt make much. With this job market and having been out of work force for 15 yrs, her options would be very limited. There is no way of knowing what the next yr or two will be like in my industry (real estate related). It has changed dramatically following the recession and housing crisis so we're in unchartered waters. I constantly look into new avenues for more business and take advanced industry-specific training to improve myself to try to gain a competitive advantage. I just need to find a way to get thru this and move forward. Its driving a wedge and negatively affecting the relationship. I dont want that. But it takes two.....[/QUOTE]


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> noguts - you are rude. you may have an interesting point or two but i cant get beyond the name calling and far-reaching accusations of your message to take it seriously. I dont think that wanting to make joint decisions with my wife makes me a wimp. Your choice of words indicates you are a control freak and hot head(you may not be, but thats how you come across). I suggest finding a different forum to hang out on since advice giving is not your strongsuit


Sorry, call it as I see it. What happens when you stand up for yourself, your family, and do what is right? You see, you have obvious issues of control and choose to allow it. I see that as weak, and I have to assume, if there is a day when your family really runs into serious financial problems (hopefully that never happens), but if it did, she would see you as weak as well. damned if you do damned if you don't. I say take the keys, let her know you appreciate her feelings, but until she is protecting your family financially, you have to have peace of mind.
Are you willing to stand up to her?


----------



## Wild Mustang (Oct 26, 2013)

"(c) hijack the family finances so she cant access anything other than what I give her and pay the consequences for that too"

I guess it comes down to which "consequences" you choose. If any action or inaction is going to ruin you, then by all means pick door #3 (c).


----------



## UserName1 (Oct 22, 2013)

Thanks everyone! Some very good things to think about. Yes, I am naturally a peace-maker and avoid conflict by staying quiet. Got it from my parents. My mom is that way. Dad was always right, short-tempered, and no standing up to him 'or else'. While I do need to learn to be more assertive as most have said, what about the 'happy wife, happy life' motto? If I do as most of you say, you-know-what will hit the fan and all heck will break lose. Maybe the finances improve but everything else goes down the drain - so is the trade-off worth it? What have I really gained? I guess thats my last follow up question.

Noguts: apology accepted! Your follow-up was much more civil - thank you!


----------



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

UserName1 said:


> Thanks everyone! Some very good things to think about. Yes, I am naturally a peace-maker and avoid conflict by staying quiet. Got it from my parents. My mom is that way. Dad was always right, short-tempered, and no standing up to him 'or else'. While I do need to learn to be more assertive as most have said, what about the 'happy wife, happy life' motto? If I do as most of you say, you-know-what will hit the fan and all heck will break lose. Maybe the finances improve but everything else goes down the drain - so is the trade-off worth it? What have I really gained? I guess thats my last follow up question.
> 
> Noguts: apology accepted! Your follow-up was much more civil - thank you!


Happy wife = Happy life does not mean you should be a pushover. Will your wife be "happy" when you suddenly have a medical or house emergency and you don't have the money to pay for it? Of course not. And she may even blame you for it. **** may hit the fan whether you do something or not, so maybe it's better to nip this in the bud now and avoid greater pain later.


----------

