# Vent? Anon Pink here you go...



## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I really don’t know where to start, mostly because I don’t know where I’m going with this thread, if I even need anything other than a slap in the face. I don’t know that there is a solution, and I honestly don’t know what question I should even be asking. I suppose one could say this is a vent post, and if you think you have something helpful to add, please feel free.

I have been married for just over 10 years now. We have 3 wonderful boys, with plans to sometime in the near future (hopefully), have another child. I think the world of all of my family, but of course especially my wife. I find her to be the most beautiful woman I have ever laid eyes on, hilariously funny, playful, extremely smart, outrageously organized and purposeful. In short, exactly what any man could hope for in traits for a life partner, up to and included looking like my literal dream girl. I make pretty darn good money (about 5x median salary where I live), try to provide everything she could even want (40 acres of land with just about any animal you can name because she wants them), do all the chores she wants, usually cook the meals, clean with her, etc. I don’t think I’m a stud, but I don’t think I’m hard to look at by any means.

A little bit of background on me is that this is my 2nd marriage, with the first ending in divorce after my XW “discovering” she was bisexual/lesbian (claims now she has always been a lesbian). That of course did not do wonderful things for my self-esteem, nor did coming to the realization that she had cheated on my numerous times throughout our relationship (high school “sweethearts” – yeah vomit..). I was Navy for 8 years, 4 of which was attached to a submarine, so that was stressful for myself and most especially my (new at the time) wife. 

As so many relationship stories begin (my current W), we had a fairly wild and crazy sex life the year we dated, and perhaps the first 1.5 years of the marriage. To be perfectly honest, I doubt most men on this site would consider my current “predicament” to actually be anything to complain about; and to those men my most sincere sympathies goes out to you. Please keep in mind the kind of rejection that I have dealt with previously – I do indeed know what it feels like to not be wanted, or to be wanted for all the wrong reasons. We currently probably have sex 1-2 times a week, very rarely going anything more than a week without some form of intimacy, with the occasional few days in a row. To my knowledge, when we are together, my wife *usually* orgasms. I would like to think that I would know if she were faking, but to be honest I expect that she could easily deceive me. 

Early in our dating year, immediately after a fight, I caught her masturbating in our bedroom. I was very upset by this, for numerous reasons, not the least of which was that our fight was over pictures of a model ex-boyfriend of hers that she had been perusing on her computer. For years after that, in my own little world, I had believed that was the only time she had masturbated (without me there).

During our relationship, we would frequently read stories (literotica being the favorite) and use toys (vibrator usually). I started to have (minor) issues, and tried to bring them up in amicable ways. At first it seemed that we were either reading stories almost every time, or using the toy, or both. While I had no objection to these things in and of themselves, it started to feel like I wasn’t actually part of what was going on, I was just being allowed to “occupy space” in the nether regions while she engrossed herself in a story and masturbated. My communications did NOT have their intended purpose, and usually escalated to fighting and either a withdrawal of all stories or toys for a while. During these times, she would orgasm much less frequently, VERY noticeably so. Once again, as it bothered me (minor), I asked questions as to if there was anything else I could do, change how I was doing it, etc. The same dynamic occurred. 

Slowly things seemed to get worse in that either that vast majority of our encounters were using outside stimulus; or she would simply not orgasm. Trying to make this better (for both of us, honestly) just resulted in her becoming more and more withdrawn. We ended up, over the years, having MANY fights about it. 

On one such fight, after I had suspicions that she had masturbated, she admitted that she had masturbated frequently during our entire marriage. Judge however you wish, but this took the stimulus issue and took it exponentially further. It made me feel that our entire sex life was predicated on her masturbation habits, and I was just the patsy being “appeased”. It made me question most everything to do with the physical side of our relationship. She has never been very aggressive, but in the early years was very outspoken in terms of wanting me to do things TO her, show her I liked parts of her body, get excited, etc. Rarely do I get touched, and in no way can I honestly say have I ever felt physically “appreciated” by her. No touching of my body before, during, or after sex; no prolonged looks, etc. Naturally, the opposite is also not allowed, if she knows that I masturbated she gets very upset (usually basing it on hypocrisy, although I see a glaring difference between her choosing to masturbate INSTEAD of sex with me, and me masturbating to get release without forcing her to be with me or getting rejected); if I don’t orgasm she also gets very upset (and has actually cried in the past over it)

A few years ago, after numerous fights about frequency, quality, toy use, masturbation, etc; I just sort of gave up. I had confronted her on numerous occasions (every one of which she initially lied about it – to the point I had to play 007 and “prove” my case); she swore it off on numerous occasions (we know how well that has worked); threw away her toys at several occasions (and yet, we still have plenty); made “efforts” to be more about me (which just meant more frequent sex for about a week, then right back to the same pattern). It really all just kept going RIGHT back – same sex dynamic between us, same her masturbating when I wasn’t home, same me DESPERATELY wanting to be desired by my wife but feeling like just another chore she had to do.

Unfortunately, it hasn’t solved a thing in my head, and I am now starting to notice that I am losing my physical drive with my wife. It isn’t to the level that I don’t want her any more, but I am feeling resentment about it, feeling dirty after having sex with her (and not in the good way), trying to avoid seeing her or touching her, etc. I think a lot of it has to do with the attitude that my wife has presented in the past, the constant strain in the relationship over it, and the overwhelming feeling that this is all just my problem, all in my head, something I should just “get over” and accept what I have (because I know it isn’t THAT bad compared to so many other stories here). But maybe I’m just getting tired of pity sex and the feeling that she is just waiting for something new and exciting to come along. 
I’ve been to counseling – both of the ones I tried seemed to be interested in finding something for me to “blame” my feelings on… which felt like a waste of my money and my time. We’ve done counseling together, which I guess was neither bad nor good, but again that amounts to a waste of money and time. In the end, I’ve got a hot wife who WILL do me if I request (or within a few days of me doing so), so what am I *****ing about right? I do think a lot of it is in my head, and shouldn’t matter as much as it does. 

A case in point would be this New Year’s. I work shift work, and New Year’s Eve I was on night shift. When I woke up the next day (New Year’s Day), with a few hours to go before going to work, I tried several times covertly to initiate something. Finally I bluntly said that I wanted to do something, and I wanted her to get off with me. She said something to the effect of wanting to eat first and then “absolutely” (but that she probably “couldn’t” get off). RIGHT THEN I started thinking that that night, while I was at work, she would be “ringing in the new year” by herself. Stupid thing to be caught up on, I know. Nothing happened that afternoon, and sure enough the next day the “toy” had been moved. So her first for 2014 was by herself… probably been the same story since 2004. I think the 5th or 6th she got around to doing something with me, which seemed to occur after her asking me all day “what was wrong”. It starts to become fairly obvious that either I’m delusional, or she simply does the minimum she can to “keep me happy”. Which, unfortunately for her, is fairly frequent by her standards. 

Anyway, to be clear, it isn’t the SEX that I can’t stop thinking about and am making a big deal about. It isn’t the frequency. It’s the bitter pill that I don’t think my wife has ANY desire for me, and even though I have specifically used those words to describe both our sex life and her masturbation habits, everything continues down the path she desires – not the one I do. Something that is aiding in making this tough to deal with is that it always in the past has gotten weary on my mind most when I’m on night shift, and in a few months I will go on night shift for most likely the better part of 3 months – the first such occurrence in many many years. 

The other thing that has been getting more and more consistent lately is the verbal teasing. Multiple times a day I will get told that we are about to go do something sexy, and then nothing will happen whether I try to initiate or not. If I dare mention this, or course, I’m just being pushy and why can’t she change her mind? 

That’s my vent. Suck it up John boy… I know. Praise my lucky stars, right, at least she WILL do it with me, even if the dishes and toilet-cleaning occurs with more enthusiasm, and then she’ll go do herself the right way. Wish I knew what THAT was… ugh I am pathetic.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

No, I will not be one to tell you to just "suck it up" because you're getting sex 1 to 2 times a week. If you feel the quality of the sex is lacking and that she's deriving the most pleasure from a piece of plastic instead of her husband, then you definitely have a legitimate concern. It does appear that she is not attracted to you based on what you write. 

But then again, if you are working rotating shifts and you have 3 sons already, then it's possible that your wife is overwhelmed with being alone with the kids while you are out working and she's feeling resentful. That combined with the two of you losing time together due to your shift work may be leading her to use masturbation to get her needs met when you're unavailable. 

Maybe instead of allowing your fights to devolve into angry fights over orgasms and intimacy, you should try to have a more measured and honest discussion about whether she's feeling a loss of attraction or resentment against you first. Try to figure out whether your lost connection is based simply on a lack of time or if it's anger towards you for whatever reason. That will give you a starting point to work from.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Most of those discussions are "layered". The first layer is complete denial that anything of the sort is going on (i.e. I'm not masturbating, we're having sex all the time, you're just being horny/pushy); the next layer is the indignation that I'm "keeping tabs on her", that she has no "privacy", that my expectations are way too high (she has a post on here exactly to this effect, also); followed by the final layer which is the rationalization layer (you weren't here and I was horny (but not at 5pm when I wanted some, nor 8am the next morning, etc)). She has never said anything negative about me other than me pushing too hard for more sex or being insistent that she have orgasms with me.

She DID have a time in a fight perhaps last year that laid another seed of self-doubt. She mentioned something about how masturbating was the only time she could be focused on just her, something I believe Anon Pink mentioned in another thread that really struck me was almost identical. That said, I have tried MIGHTILY to coax this idea into the open - that things absolutely CAN be for just her, I try all the time, to no avail.
I honestly don't believe she would tell me the truth if she weren't attracted to me anymore. There are a lot of justifications for doing just that, the one she would seize on of course being to "spare my feelings". 
I was muttering to myself earlier that just the other day she said to me "actions speak louder than words". That was on the 5th or 6th when she finally decided we could be intimate this year, and asked if I desired her, and I said yes but did nothing. It was VERY difficult to leave that one alone...


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I did try something a while back, where I have started asking her randomly what I have done wrong recently, or what I could do better. I get the same brush off "nothing, of course" pretty much every time.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You're not pathetic! Your pain and self doubt are loud and clear. I'm so sorry you're feeling like this. 

I guess your main issue is that you don't feel the sex with your wife is an emotionally connecting sex, but just raw sex and when you try to go for just an emotional connecting through sex it doesn't get her off. Interesting... Do you two cuddle very much before or after sex?

You say she doesn't ever touch your body during sex. Are you referring to her laying on the bed as you touch her then have PIV? Or do you mean she doesn't touch you to arouse you, she doesn't caress your genitals and she doesn't go down on you?

What would she do if you told her to touch you?


Couple of thoughts in no particular order...

How comes your wife isn't allowed to masturbate without you? Is this something you both agreed to before hand or is this a request/demand you made? I masturbate several times a week and usually I don't tell me H unless I want to tease him.

Speaking of teasing, you mentioned she teases you, making you feel as if you're going to be getting sex but then she begs off. NOT COOL! I wonder hat it would be like to turn the tables on her, to tease her like that?

You mentioned in another thread that your wife is hot for erotica and reads it all the time. What genre does she typically go for?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> You're not pathetic! Your pain and self doubt are loud and clear. I'm so sorry you're feeling like this.
> 
> I guess your main issue is that you don't feel the sex with your wife is an emotionally connecting sex, but just raw sex and when you try to go for just an emotional connecting through sex it doesn't get her off. Interesting... Do you two cuddle very much before or after sex?
> 
> ...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

A lot of this is familiar to me. Not the masturbating, but the 1/2 times a week and only doing it when I've been in a bad mood. Basically allowing the bare minimum to keep me around and quiet.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

The sad part is judging by what NMMNG, MMSLP, and others have said, all I'm doing at this point is destroying what little attraction she may have left for me completely away by being negative about myself. Another reason I'd love to just get over it. So many guys out there just care about "getting theirs", and would trade with me in an instant most likely... but frankly I just can't be a a$$ like that. I want my partner to WANT to be there, and I don't think she does.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> A lot of this is familiar to me. Not the masturbating, but the 1/2 times a week and only doing it when I've been in a bad mood. Basically allowing the bare minimum to keep me around and quiet.


More to the point, consider that situation, then ADD in that she is frequently masturbating: does that make it better, or worse?

Ends up feeling like "shut up, eat your porridge, let me work myself out".


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

I am not sure if this comparison will help you or not.

sex is a lot like dancing. I like to go dancing and depending on my partner I can have a great time, or a somewhat awkward bumpy time. The point that I think I am trying to make is that maybe you and your wife just have an awkward bumpy sort of sexual relationship.

What to do? I don't know. You want to make it all about you. You are not desired.

I don't agree with you - nor do I think that you putting the focus on you is really helping. I think it is time to change your way of thinking about this. You yourself even said that maybe it is all in your head. Well, I don't agree with that either - but the only think that you CAN change is how you think about all of this.

Would it help if you just accept my premise that maybe you two are just awkward "dance" partners? Maybe if you could get accept that then you could work on improving the dance. Maybe if it was no longer "personal" you would be able to see what might be good for both of you - without all of the fighting.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

My best analogy is the guy watching porn/beating off so much he doesn't want his wife. I completely sympathize with women in this situation. That doesn't mean that I think all men who watch porn and masturbate or bad (or that all women who masturbate and read erotica), simply that if they do it so much they don't leave any energy for their SO, or effectively make their SO the "sloppy seconds", that is a disservice to the SO. 

In all honesty/truthfulness, the loss of physical drive for my wife is scary to me. I have always wanted her, longed for her. I worry that too much more of feeling like this will make me vulnerable to someone who might come along and ACTUALLY want me. Because I don't know what that feels like at this point. 

Awkward dance partners I can get, but we actually seem to be dancing just fine, and finding the same pattern each time - I'm just not really enjoying it, and feel she isn't either. And since she seems more interested in "busting a move" by herself - maybe that's all I'm going to get from her. 

Funny thing is she told me before we got together she would masturbate all the time. I thought it was a reflection on her ex that he wouldn't take care of her needs - I never considered (at the time I heard the story) that she had no interest in anyone taking care of it for her. She was content as is. Whoops.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

It sounds like she has trouble having orgasms in any way but by masturbating. Masturbating is more reliable for her, and because you two are at odds, she's not committed to doing anything to change matters.

Since the "no masturbation" rule is not working, how about trying something different and lifting the rule for both of you? Stop checking up on whether one of her toys has moved, and just let it go. You should feel free to masturbate as well. Maybe taking away these restrictions on pleasure will help, because you will at least get some satisfaction and she can stop feeling like she has to give up the one sure thing that gives her an orgasm. The forbidden nature of it might even make it more enticing to her, so don't forbid it and see what happens.

Remove that pressure from each other, and maybe that can help open the doors to giving each other mutual pleasure again.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Actually Nora Jane, I have long since done so. That was the "give up" part. I know she has masturbated numerous times in the past two years or so, but I haven't said or done anything based on this - other than die slowly inside. Even when she masturbates and I get nothing... I say nothing and move on. I have told her to go ahead, and I mean it, as there is absolutely nothing that I can say or do that is going to stop her (whether she tells me she will or not). Hence me still being here, in my situation, and her thinking everything is hunky-dory.

ETA: I don't think she's "having trouble" personally, I just think she enjoys it more and over time is being desensitized such that she needs the toys to get there. Not always, honestly, as she still can with my hand or riding me, but that happens less and less as time goes on. I just think my participation is irrelevant.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Okay I can see why this hurts you so much, having sex with your wife while her arousal comes from the story and you are a living masturbatory aid. I think this needs to stop, for good. I think she needs to put the damn story down while she has sex with her husband and I think that needs to be the rule from now on.

So she's a non-con fan huh? Completely and totally aroused by being over powered. A lot of the non-con also have a rather important humiliation element. Have you two ever tried a rape fantasy of your own? Does she ever read the BDSM section? Does she get off on bondage games or dominance and consensual submission or is she focused on non consensual submission?

Are you comfortable with bedroom dominance? Could you order her to the bedroom, crowd her in an intimidating posture, as you maneuver her to the bedroom? Even as she puts up a fight?

You two would have to talk this out first, come up with a safe word that would immediately halt anything happening, and perhaps a slow down word to use your first couple of times.

I have to say it though I'm sure it will hurt and I'm sorry for that. She has lost her attraction to you and your vigilance about her masturbation habit is not helping you at all. 

You two need to take, honestly. You need to understand that you might have put her on the defensive about her reading choices and masturbation habits, even though it makes no sense that you allow her to read while you're having sex.

I really suggest you read something empowering for yourself. I think in the beginning, you read too much into her reading and masturbating and now it's taken a life of it's own.

No more mentions of her masturbation. However, this means you also get to masturbate. If she dares to say anything to you, look her in the eye, hold your head up and tell her you don't need her permission to masturbate, any more than she needs yours.

She needs to understand that you are not simply a pile of parts and that your penis is connected to your body, heart and mind. Just as her clit is connected to hers.

There was a woman here back in the summer, I think, who posted that her husband threatened to divorce her if she masturbated. The strong consensus was that so long as her masturbating didn't prevent her from wanting sex with her husband, he was off his rocker for insisting she never masturbate. That wasn't your wife was it?


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

We have done some role playing, she is... strange about it. She seems very much into it, but I have to do ALL of the "work" associated with it, come up with the scenario, etc. And while the elements you mentioned are there (humiliation, overpowered), she is very sensitive to too much realism; of course I get to find out by suddenly being rejected.... so a lot of that is rather rare.

It may have been her in the summer... I believe I stayed off her thread out of respect for her space but she was definitely laying the veneer on thick with how she worded it all. I'd have to dig it back up, it was a while back. She likes to throw the "D" word around, so it wouldn't surprise me.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Looks like she had the thread deleted, bummer that. Looks like she was active on her last summer though. *sigh*


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> There was a woman here back in the summer, I think, who posted that her husband threatened to divorce her if she masturbated. The strong consensus was that so long as her masturbating didn't prevent her from wanting sex with her husband, he was off his rocker for insisting she never masturbate. That wasn't your wife was it?



Was it this one?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...ver-masturbation-desperately-need-advice.html


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I know you love your wife, but you have to have some self respect, so she can have some respect for you, too.

Are you familiar with active listening? Basically, when someone talks, you repeat back what they say. Usually they feel heard and understood, and they will go deeper in their heart with you. If you stick with it long enough, you end up seeing the problem, and you can solve it.

I would suggest sitting down with your wife and asking her some questions. This should be followed up with active listening.

After the active listening, you need her to see your side. If she starts getting upset, switch back to active listening. When she calms down, express yourself again.

You need to be transparent with her about what you expect from her. But first you need to know what you expect. Search your soul and be honest with yourself.

Then tell her. Be clear. Be firm. Set consequences. You said she mentioned the D word? You mean divorce? That is probably a very good consequence. You and she work out a plan that meets both of your needs or there will be a divorce. Win-Win or No Deal.

Stand up for yourself.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> Was it this one?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...ver-masturbation-desperately-need-advice.html


Definitely not mine, lol.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

jld said:


> I know you love your wife, but you have to have some self respect, so she can have some respect for you, too.
> 
> Are you familiar with active listening? Basically, when someone talks, you repeat back what they say. Usually they feel heard and understood, and they will go deeper in their heart with you. If you stick with it long enough, you end up seeing the problem, and you can solve it.
> 
> ...


I am familiar with active listening, although I can't say that I practice it well. I think I'm the classic "fix it" guy who always looks for the solution immediately. I have gotten better about not bursting in/blurting out that solution as soon as I see it. We talk quite a bit, but then again I'm sure she would say we hardly talk at all. Duality.

I don't know what I want out of it at this point. I mean I do, but just like the genie said, you can't mess with free will. I can't MAKE her want me, can't MAKE her be attracted to me, can't MAKE her want me to be the main attraction of her sexual show. That which I feel do make her do makes me feel worthless.

In terms of consequences, I feel trapped. I'm not interested in divorcing. She seems to like to bring it up that I am wanting one anytime I get moody. Still feel, just like I did 9 months ago (Here ), that I'm not even allowed to feel sorry for myself or my situation. I'm supposed to be goody gumdrops all the time and happy-go-lucky like I "normally am" so she doesn't feel bad. I certainly don't want the stigma of being the douche who ended a marriage where he was still getting some because she was masturbating. In that I would clearly be against the "consensus". 

Looking back at my past posts, I think my "end" goal is where Racer suggested I get to. I just don't seem to be making any progress to getting there.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Following some rabbit holes, I see a few masturbation stories on here, and the vast majority would seem to think I'm some sort of freak/weirdo for having an issue with this. Where are those people? While it's nice to be supported, maybe one of them can find some non-judgmental way of making this make sense to me in a way I can swallow. Then again, none of those stories align with this situation exactly.


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## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Following some rabbit holes, I see a few masturbation stories on here, and the vast majority would seem to think I'm some sort of freak/weirdo for having an issue with this. Where are those people? While it's nice to be supported, maybe one of them can find some non-judgmental way of making this make sense to me in a way I can swallow. Then again, none of those stories align with this situation exactly.


Obviously she has drive. If she did not she would not be masturbating so often.

While your situation is much more complicated than just this part is there a way you can turn this masturbation issue around? She feels guilty because of your response to it. That may have caused resentment.

If it is out in the open that the masturbation can not get in the way of your sexuality between you. If she was to tell you when she did it, what she was thinking about, text you and tease you a little, and get you "warmed" up so when you hit the house you are wanting each other, would that change one of your dynamics? Maybe if this issue eases a bit some of the other issues will ease. If you are included in this activity and she does not feel guilty maybe it will open some things up for both of you.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I am someone who has gone through many phases where I would rather masturbate than have sex. It's just easier. You also say that there could have been times she faked having an orgasm when she is with you, and that she requires other stimulus to finish so it could be just as simple as why I often prefer it- it's just a simple, quick, guaranteed O where sex might not be. 

Do you give oral sex? Can you give her an O before you begin sex so she knows it's going to happen and she can get into it more? You can use a toy also if necessary but I would try to add an element, like using oral too, or a position that she can't do on her own, this is something I enjoy. If I don't know if I am going to O or not, it is harder for me to get into the sex, this would put all the focus on her first but she wouldn't be upset that you didn't also finish. If she has a hard time Oing, she won't feel pressure to finish before/when you do too, she can just take her time. 
ETA- also sometimes women can't O or can't do it as well if they are also focused on you, like the 69 thread. I can get like that. If I am not focused in my head about my O because I am trying to also be good for his it will take me a lot longer, sometimes not at all. 

She has a responsibility to tell you exactly what she needs though. I know it might be counter productive since you are trying to curb this but can you ask to watch her masturbate? Get a sense of how she likes things done? Plus, if she can include you in this then it might help keep her mind on having Os with you. We train ourselves how to O, if she is always doing it one way then it's hard to break away from that. She herself should mix it up with the masturbating so she is used to Oing from several methods.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

ET1SSJonota said:


> More to the point, consider that situation, then ADD in that she is frequently masturbating: does that make it better, or worse?
> 
> Ends up feeling like "shut up, eat your porridge, let me work myself out".


You know... This is your perception of "what I am imagining she thinks or feels". My wife does this all the time. She imagines motives for things I do. And often they've been negative. 

Honestly, I can't "perform" for my wife if in any way I think she's upset about something. And dang, she probably can't get terribly aroused if she feels guilty about something sexual while the two of you are "doing it". 

Another thing you need to know - her masturbating or using toys DOES NOT detract from, nor subtract from her ability to have sex with you. 

Rather, you're resenting her seeking the big O via something other than your efforts, and I'll bet she's picking up on that and it's seriously destroying your intimacy all around. Do you want us to tell you that her actions are wrong and you're right? You can win that argument, if you want. But the results are that you will be attempting to impose your will on what she wants to do that she apparently is ok with doing on her own. 

And that will never work - if you define "work" as making your relationship work. She denies because you're accusing her of something wrong. And, perhaps feels shame. 

I can't tell you what to do. However, if it were me, I'd just embrace it. Tell her to get the toys and incorporate them into your sexual life. And if she still wants more after the two of you are done, then, go with it. Snuggle up with her and embrace her while she plays with them. I'll bet the guilt and her lack of enthusiasm for you will quickly vanish.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

ET1SSJonota said:


> Following some rabbit holes, I see a few masturbation stories on here, and the vast majority would seem to think I'm some sort of freak/weirdo for having an issue with this. Where are those people? While it's nice to be supported, maybe one of them can find some non-judgmental way of making this make sense to me in a way I can swallow. Then again, none of those stories align with this situation exactly.


I don't think you are a freak, but there is definitely a line to walk. It is her body and she gets to chose what to do with it. So forbidding is problematic. But it is you marriage, and you get to decide what boundaries are appropriate *for you*. So a couple of thoughts:

1) Be explicit that you will not longer "forbid" her to masterbate. You can't control her and won't pretend otherwise. But also let her know that you are still concerned about the harm it is doing to your relationship. Also be clear that you will be masturbating as well. Life is a two-way street, and she can't be upset about you doing what she is.

2) Stop her teasing immediately. The next time she does it, refuse to engage and tell her plainly why. Take that away from her now. If she does tease, and then does not follow through, ask pointed questions (in a calm way) about why she is not.

3) Regarding the BDSM, I can understand why she wants you to do the work. I imagine it loses something if she is planning her own bondage scene. I think that is part of that type of play.

4) I do think you can feel bad about your situation, but not when it hurts you goals. Feeling down is likely hurting her attraction to you. 

5) You said you are not willing to divorce over this. If she knows this, there is less incentive for her to change, because she knows in the end that you will still stick around. Not saying you should divorce, but taking it off the table will only hurt you.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> *Unfortunately, it hasn’t solved a thing in my head, and I am now starting to notice that I am losing my physical drive with my wife. It isn’t to the level that I don’t want her any more, but I am feeling resentment about it, feeling dirty after having sex with her (and not in the good way), trying to avoid seeing her or touching her, etc. I think a lot of it has to do with the attitude that my wife has presented in the past, the constant strain in the relationship over it, and the overwhelming feeling that this is all just my problem, all in my head, something I should just “get over” and accept what I have [/B*


*

Ouch, this gets me right in the feelers. This has been me as of late.*


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Use the active listening skills during a conversation about your sex life during which you explicitly remove any boundaries regaring masturbation (for you both) and or the use of toys during either sex or masturbation.

(Just to be clear, a lot of women do not orgasm from PIV and can only achieve orgasm via direct clitoral stimulation and of those women who must have clit stim, they need the type of stim a vibrator gives them. Think of her orgasm as HERS! You may provide the stimulation, in the way she must have the stimulation, but SHE is the one who is orgasming, not you. They are HERS not your achievement.)

During this conversation explain to her what kinds of thing you would like HER to do for you to let you know she wants to have sex, fantasies you have, ways you want her to touch you. It seems like your sex life is focused on rocking her world and trying to get her attention. Why not have her work to get your attention? Why not sit in a chair and have her masturbate for you? Why not mutual masturbation? 

You describe her as your sex goddess which I find perplexing since this sex goddess won't let you go down on her and turns away from you. I though the sex goddess was all about pleasing her man, working her man, seducing her man and having the perfect form in which to do it? :scratchhead:

Speaking of...why doesn't she let you go down on her? That sounds like a hang up, a serious hang up considering she's totally into non-con.

To piggy back on all of that, you say you feel like she isn't attracted to you. What can she do or say and how often, in order to assure you that she IS attracted to you and does want YOU! You can't start anything with don't do this or that, list actions that she should do or should say.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It sounds to me like your wife is just not a good partnered lover. She wants to be absorbed into herself and her own pleasure exclusively. I don't think this is a reflection on you, it is just her style...which like I said, makes for a crappy partnered lover. Sadly it is doubtful you will change this about her.

Is there any way you can take solace from the fact that she is a crappy partnered lover and "it isn't you"?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> It sounds to me like your wife is just not a good partnered lover. She wants to be absorbed into herself and her own pleasure exclusively. I don't think this is a reflection on you, it is just her style...which like I said, makes for a crappy partnered lover. Sadly it is doubtful you will change this about her.
> 
> Is there any way you can take solace from the fact that she is a crappy partnered lover and "it isn't you"?


Do you think this is something that can be changed? Is this maybe something she might not be aware of and realize how it hurts him?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> To piggy back on all of that, you say you feel like she isn't attracted to you. What can she do or say and how often, in order to assure you that she IS attracted to you and does want YOU! You can't start anything with don't do this or that, list actions that she should do or should say.


While I like this, it immediately brought to mind an earlier comment from the OP that he did not believe she would tell him she was not attracted to him. With that mindset, I am concerned that he won't believe these actions and words, particularly if he has to tell her. Perhaps by giving a couple of examples, then seeing if she does not only those, but also tries to expand them on her own.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon...no, I don't think people who are lovers like that can or will change. They are Self-gay.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I see not so much a sexual issue as an intimacy issue. If she prefers to get herself off, fine - but in an intimate relationship she should be able to do it WITH you. 

She gives you sex but not her soul - and its her soul you want. And you want it through the act of sex because that is what defines a marriage from all other relationships. 

She is withholding the most intimate part of herself from you. Why she is doing it - I guess that is only for her to know at this point. Will she work to change it, can you live with it if she doesn't?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While I like this, it immediately brought to mind an earlier comment from the OP that he did not believe she would tell him she was not attracted to him. With that mindset, I am concerned that he won't believe these actions and words, particularly if he has to tell her. Perhaps by giving a couple of examples, then seeing if she does not only those, but also tries to expand them on her own.


I think you're right and considering how FaithfulWife pointed out Mrs ET is just a crappy bed partner, she may also be kind of a dunce in the "let him know you love him" category and need remedial training. Wow this combined with a man who needs extra convincing as a result of his first marriage...yikes!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Anon...no, I don't think people who are lovers like that can or will change. They are Self-gay.


Self-gay....there's a new one for me. Do you have a blog post explaining this in more detail?


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Seems to me like she is addicted to porn and has some fetish's. And it is probably also a convenience thing and now there is probably some resentment also.

It does not matter whether her needs are right or wrong (wrong being prohibiting the best sex in a relationship) She views her behavior as meeting her needs and you rejecting her behavior as not caring about her needs, rejecting her and or you overcrowding her.

The problem I see is that you are taking her behavior as a reflection of you when it is not. That is just her behavior.

If your kid gets addicted to drugs it does not mean that you where a bad parent (although it could be so). 

It is no different than my wife not masturbating and not wanting to have sex with me three times a week. That is not necessarily a reflection on my attractiveness.

I think that you are going to have to walk this whole masturbation/toys/erotica thing back. Does not matter if you are right. It could have made her feel rejected and not confident about herself.

So she does not like you to go down on her:
"She does go down on me, it's nice although I prefer other things, much of which is due to her not letting me go down on her."

Why are you tying her liking oral with you getting oral? 

Are you bringing her to orgasm before intercourse? 

There was a guy who posted not long ago about watching porn during sex and mimicking what they where doing. I do not see reading during sex as being any different. This is probably just an addiction to porn. 

Ideally this is not the best behavior but I really do not see it as being any different to any other "thing" that may turn someone on. It is better to find alternatives over time than to try to cut that out on demand.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Self-gay....there's a new one for me. Do you have a blog post explaining this in more detail?


Yes I talked about it on the _Would You Do You?_ post.


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

She is passive aggressive and you are codependent. I suggest you educate yourself on these personality types if you want change to occur.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

So much to reply to, and I don't have a ton of time.... I'll hit what I can at the moment and come back later to catch what I miss.

Her masturbation habits are, quite honestly, a mystery to me. All I have to really go on are the few times that I have kept tabs on her (a total of 3 "episodes", each no longer than a week), and with what I uncovered (at times with items found here on TAM), it seemed to be a vast majority of the nights I am not with her. However, one thing seemed to be upheld: there was no "multiples". 

For whatever reason I cannot fathom, my wife seems to be like a guy in the after-orgasm department. She cannot STAND to be touched down there immediately after and for probably a good half-hour or more. I think at the highest of our activity levels, 3 in a day was the max for her. And generally, once we have had sex, she doesn't appear to want it again for several days. Therefore, *if* (recognizing most is conjecture) all the above is true, if she masturbates during the night the likelihood that she will be interested in me the following day is slim to none. This seems to be supported by the dramatic lack of all interest any time I'm on nights. 

However, this isn't ALWAYS the case. For instance, yesterday she really rocked my world. Woke me up for sex in bed, very aggressively; then wanted it again in the afternoon. No toys, no stories, no porn, just us. Very intense both times... felt very connecting, exactly what I needed in terms of sex AND the way it was presented (as opposed to the "well if you need to get off sure"). It goes a long way, but doesn't seem to undo what seems to be the "usual" standard of which I have described. If I could get what happened today, on a weekly basis, I would be in heaven. 

I have seen a lot of good suggestions, the biggest one being sitting down with her and having a sex/sexuality discussion and removing any ideas of barriers. To be frank, I don't know that I can "just watch" her masturbate _at this time_, due to my feelings about it; but eventually I think I could and it could be fun. I do want her to stop walling off her sexuality from me in terms of letting things be about her.

The going down on her bit has been very strange. I used to do it all the time, I actually VERY much enjoy doing so, and she says she enjoys it a lot, but is uncomfortable with it due to body issues and/or concerns about odors (that I don't believe exist). I still try frequently... but haven't had much luck in probably 6+ months.

In terms of her "O", I would say the vast majority of the time with me she does - it is just that a significant majority of THOSE time is with the toy. I'm ok with a good bit of it, but I do worry that the more it happens with the toy, the less it CAN happen with me. Cause and effect, and even though I've discussed it in those terms I don't know that she's heard me right.

I do need to get right in my head, and I do need to communicate more. I really don't feel I'm some oppressive monster, but when I read threads similar to mine (from the opposite viewpoint), it seems that far more would call me that than side with my pain (again, which seems strange considering the content of your responses). 

I'll get back with more later... got to go for now.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

I started to reply individually, but it’s getting crazy long so looks like I need to break it up.. first round:



Cyclist said:


> … is there a way you can turn this masturbation issue around? She feels guilty because of your response to it. That may have caused resentment.
> If she was to tell you when she did it, what she was thinking about, text you and tease you a little, and get you "warmed" up so when you hit the house you are wanting each other, would that change one of your dynamics? Maybe if this issue eases a bit some of the other issues will ease. If you are included in this activity and she does not feel guilty maybe it will open some things up for both of you.


I’d love to turn it around, and the resentment is palpable (on both our sides). 

I think you’re missing my main complaint – that she uses the masturbation (or seems to) in PLACE of intimacy with me. If I want it when I get home, I can be pushy and get my way. But it will be with little enthusiasm from her, and certainly no “lust”. I want to be wanted, I want her to desire the sex, or for the most part I’d just rather not. 

If I were to have her tell me when she was, and what it was about, and tease me: I would be excited (moreso than normal), and she would be spent and uninterested. That dynamic is not one that I would like (but have been there before).

The other “step” to my issue is that I don’t think she actually feels guilty at all – hence why she can effectively masturbate with me there. I am superfluous, extra, and unnecessary. 

Again, to be clear, I don’t actually have a problem with masturbation. I have a problem with her masturbating while I’m left aching to be with her, and feeling unwanted/undesired on any level. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Do you give oral sex? Can you give her an O before you begin sex so she knows it's going to happen and she can get into it more…she won't feel pressure to finish before/when you do too, she can just take her time.
> … can you ask to watch her masturbate? Get a sense of how she likes things done? Plus, if she can include you in this then it might help keep her mind on having Os with you. We train ourselves how to O, if she is always doing it one way then it's hard to break away from that. She herself should mix it up with the masturbating so she is used to Oing from several methods.


I try to give oral sex, but rarely get the opportunity. Without giving too much detail, one thing or another always seems to come up. I’m actually starting to worry about this as well, as I used to get huge kudos for my “skills” with this particular endeavor. It seemed to be the one thing I could do that was, if we weren’t 69ing, JUST for her – the one thing she says supposedly driver her to masturbate. And lately I don’t seem to be allowed to try to give her that.

Pressure to finish has come up before. Honestly I’m sure I do give her some of that, but it is reciprocated as well. It is a HUGE deal if I don’t get off – it’s a double standard that I’m not allowed to even ask if she is or isn’t. Make our sex awkward sometimes, as I actively have to “hold back” – so I sometimes don’t know if I’m supposed to be doing so, or getting it over with. And more often than not we do time it for a mutual orgasm, which SHE seems far more driven to do than me. 
As for her style, she has said that she never could get off with anything other than the toy by herself. It is partially for this that I wish she would only use it sparingly – I DO think she was much more responsive when I don’t think she was using it very often. While I’m pessimistic about my abilities in the bedroom, I do feel that I would be able to tell if she was faking and don’t truly think she does. The biggest reason for that being I have watched her masturbate, and our sex quite often mirrors that (as does the finale). It “used to be” that she would O in just about any encounter (multiple positions). She believes at this point that childbirth has made it so only the toy, my hand, and riding can do so now… I think it may have to do more with desensitization. 



oldgeezer said:


> …Another thing you need to know - her masturbating or using toys DOES NOT detract from, nor subtract from her ability to have sex with you.
> Rather, you're resenting her seeking the big O via something other than your efforts…
> …I'd just embrace it. Tell her to get the toys and incorporate them into your sexual life. And if she still wants more after the two of you are done, then, go with it. Snuggle up with her and embrace her while she plays with them. I'll bet the guilt and her lack of enthusiasm for you will quickly vanish.


A curiously emphatic statement from a stranger regarding a very complex and personal activity. Something you need to understand is that it 100% HAS detracted from me in the past. This is fact. I will not debate it. It MAY NOT be at this point in time, perhaps simply because I choose not to verify it, or perhaps it is something no longer at the heart of things. Regardless, I don’t feel wanted (usually). I do not resent that her toy can give her the O, we use it nearly constantly when we do have sex. If it was a big deal to me, in that way, I don’t think I could perform at all. 

I have tried the embracing it… and what you suggest defeats the point of why she has stated to me she does it (and other women seem to support), that it’s for “her” time, where she doesn’t have to worry about anyone else and can focus on herself. She doesn’t do “round 2”, or more. Never has, probably never will. We have had marathon sex days, days where she’s had 3 or 4 orgasms, seemed 100% comfortable in the sex, nakedness, etc; still can’t touch her down there for quite some time immediately after she O’s. The point being she seems to have created the “for her” sex time, masturbation; and the “for him” sex time. One she enjoys, the other she does “as needed”. I can’t “embrace” duty/pity/”wife” sex. 



Tall Average Guy said:


> … So forbidding is problematic…
> 1) Be explicit that you will not longer "forbid" her to masterbate. You can't control her and won't pretend otherwise… Also be clear that you will be masturbating as well.
> 2) Stop her teasing immediately. The next time she does it, refuse to engage and tell her plainly why. Take that away from her now. If she does tease, and then does not follow through, ask pointed questions (in a calm way) about why she is not.
> 4) I do think you can feel bad about your situation, but not when it hurts you goals. Feeling down is likely hurting her attraction to you.
> ...


I don’t, haven’t, and will not “forbid” anything. She has always been the one to offer up “I’ll never do it again”, and EVERY time I said that’s not what I wanted. I discouraged or retrieved the toys every time they were thrown out (even bought all new ones, and more one time). And she knows that I do on occasion as well – it usually gets thrown in my face as being hypocritical, although a) I see a huge difference and b) it never happens before making an attempt with her.

The teasing thing is difficult. I DO like being teased to a point, what I don’t like is flat out saying “you’re going to get lucky/laid/whatever”, then NOTHING. The other day she was walking down the hallway in nothing but a thong, and I said, more mischievous than anything, “you tease” and she was highly offended. Contrast that to when I actually feel TEASED in the “bad way”, I NEVER say such things. Sigh…

I don’t know how to NOT feel how I do, and I try not to show it much. She’s made it clear she can read me enough to know when I’m off, no matter how hard I try to hide it. I also do NOT want to make it a “threat” type situation. As I said, if I’m desperate she will “give it up” any time I want, I just have to lower myself to flat out demanding it (which I abhor). If I were to dangle me walking out, she’d have sex with me multiple times a day for as long as it took. That’s simply not sex I’m interested in. I want her to WANT me, not ALLOW me.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Use the active listening skills during a conversation about your sex life during which you explicitly remove any boundaries regaring masturbation (for you both) and or the use of toys during either sex or masturbation.
> (.. a lot of women do not orgasm from PIV and can only achieve orgasm via direct clitoral stimulation and of those women who must have clit stim, they need the type of stim a vibrator gives them. ...)
> Why not have her work to get your attention? …Speaking of...why doesn't she let you go down on her? That sounds like a hang up, a serious hang up considering she's totally into non-con.
> To piggy back on all of that, you say you feel like she isn't attracted to you. What can she do or say and how often, in order to assure you that she IS attracted to you and does want YOU! You can't start anything with don't do this or that, list actions that she should do or should say.


I think bringing it up at all will be difficult, as I usually get an extremely outsized negative reaction. I will try though. 

I do totally understand the PIV and female orgasm issue. She occasionally still uses my hand, and rarely hers, and riding (cowgirl??) with no other stimulation successfully. Regular missionary was possible until maybe 5 years ago (before pregnant with youngest son). So I don’t think she *needs* the toy, she just enjoys it. And I WANT her to get to enjoy it!!! Just not so much that it harms OUR sex life. 

Another analogy would be if she was so good at head that PIV wasn’t that great anymore (I’ve actually heard this from guys before? WTF?). I would intentionally minimize the BJs to ensure PIV, “together” sex, didn’t suffer. ESPECIALLY if she said to me that she was feeling less attractive, less “wanted” because I just wanted BJs. 

AP you bring up another interesting subject there. Our dynamic has almost always been I chase, she fleetingly “flees”, but succumbs. The non-con totally fits her. But she rarely ever does any “attention” getting of her own. I think this is due to me being too available to her. She rarely has to do anything more than wiggle her butt at me and I’m raring to go. 
The oral issue with her seems to be about cleanliness (I guess?). Either she has gone to the bathroom too close to that time, or it’s too close to “that time”, or she’s feeling sick, etc. Just the other day I shaved in the shower, with the specific stated intention of doing that later…nope.

Perhaps many/most/all of these things run together. You ask what can she do or say to make me feel better? Jumping me immediately after a nightshift would be FANTASTIC. ESPECIALLY if she masturbated the night before (see how that works). Coming back to her promises/suggestions as if she had meant them. Making time for me/us/it like she does everything else in our life (she’s crazy organized/effective/efficient). Touching parts of my body like she likes them (besides my genitals) – she used to touch my chest and arms a lot (I’m actually much bigger muscle-wise in my chest, arms, and back with the same waistline than I have been EVER but still nothing). 



Faithful Wife said:


> It sounds to me like your wife is just not a good partnered lover. She wants to be absorbed into herself and her own pleasure exclusively. I don't think this is a reflection on you, it is just her style...which like I said, makes for a crappy partnered lover. Sadly it is doubtful you will change this about her.
> Is there any way you can take solace from the fact that she is a crappy partnered lover and "it isn't you"?


Another interesting topic… when we did have the one “threesome” experience, her complaint/issue was that the other girl spent almost equal time with me as she did with her. She stated that her idea was that me and the other girl would be exclusively paying attention to her, and she would just be laying there basking in the attention. As we didn’t discuss that aspect of the experience prior to, and it came up after, I was like WTF?? So 3 people there, and it’s just supposed to be about you?? And no, that is no solace for me…



Tall Average Guy said:


> While I like this, it immediately brought to mind an earlier comment from the OP that he did not believe she would tell him she was not attracted to him. With that mindset, I am concerned that he won't believe these actions and words, particularly if he has to tell her. Perhaps by giving a couple of examples, then seeing if she does not only those, but also tries to expand them on her own.


I put little stock in words. I’m a “prove it” guy, especially after my 1st marriage to someone who claims to have been a lesbian the entire time but successfully made me believe she wanted me like no other (she spent months chasing me). I get lots of “words” from my wife, but little actions. As I’ve told her before, it feels like I’m supposed to be constantly proving myself in words, deeds, gifts, services, romantic things, dates, support, understanding, etc; but her part of the bargain is just being there and being her, coupled with sex when I say “I need sex, right now” and if I leave any of those words out then it didn’t count as actually asking. Also, “later” is an acceptable answer to my requests, even if later doesn’t happen. I’m pretty sure if I denied her all of the mushy stuff she likes, and suggested that she should be happy because I stay/I’m there, that it wouldn’t go over so well. Why is the reverse ok then?



usmarriedguy said:


> … She views her behavior as meeting her needs and you rejecting her behavior as not caring about her needs, rejecting her and or you overcrowding her.
> The problem I see is that you are taking her behavior as a reflection of you when it is not. That is just her
> Why are you tying her liking oral with you getting oral?
> Are you bringing her to orgasm before intercourse?


I agree that it just being an issue has certainly exacerbated the situation. Doesn’t really help though – I’ve recognized on many an occasion that if I’d just done the “good husband” thing and kept my mouth shut some of the problems we have wouldn’t have occurred. Then again, maybe I would have lost so much respect for myself (and her for me) that we couldn’t even be doing as well as we are. “What ifs” are something I try to avoid. 

I also agree that I seem codependent/tying her with me in ways that don’t necessarily make sense. In some cases, like the oral, it’s a guilt factor. If “for her” is always by herself, then “for me” doesn’t feel right anymore. If I can’t reciprocate, then I’d rather not just be a taker/user. I believe Racer once suggested that I simply take her up on what she is offering, but I feel terrible when I do and in no way can I make it a frequent thing.

I haven’t ever made her O before intercourse, mostly because then intercourse would have to be careful (overstimulation is painful to her), and probably 90+% of the time she does orgasm during intercourse.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Well as always you can not change a spouses behavior simply because it does not suit you. You can't always make an addict see that their behavior is destructive to the people around them.

Maybe over a long period of time her behavior can change or perhaps under threat she will have sex while she resents you for not accepting her behavior. 

I think that this is mostly your problem. To many criticisms about toys, jealousy about ex boyfriends, etc... Now instead of sex being fun it is tension.

"I’ve been to counseling – both of the ones I tried seemed to be interested in finding something for me to “blame” my feelings on… which felt like a waste of my money and my time."

I don't know but I read: I do not want to pay the therapist to tell me things that I do not want to hear. I really wanted to hear how she was all wrong. 

I don't know but maybe you need to learn to meditate or something. Calm it down, walk it back, let sleeping dogs lie, etc... 

"It’s the bitter pill that I don’t think my wife has ANY desire for me, and even though I have specifically used those words to describe both our sex life and her masturbation habits, everything continues down the path she desires – not the one I do."

After you learn to calm it down and recognize that this is your problem and not hers then sex can get back to normal and she will probably start desiring you more. 

You are going to have to learn to believe in yourself and not be so insecure.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

To a point, I do think this is "my problem". Part of that is how to get over it. There is a part of me that does NOT want to get over it - because I don't like the thought of the outcomes that that leads me to, at least in my head and how I've dealt so far. "Getting over it" is exactly what I've tried to do for approximately the last 2 years, rarely saying ANYTHING about our sex life. And her I am, in exactly the same place, more or less, than I was at the beginning of the 2 years. It has led me to start to resent sex, to turn away from my wife, and lose some of the connection we have. I do not like that trend!

I guess another way to look at it is this: she can take the time to reach for the vibrator, but not take the time to reach for me. My wife is the type of person who TAKES what she wants, puts active energy into the pursuits she deems appropriate for the time - based on that knowledge, where does that put me? To me, firmly in the "support system with a penis that must be contended with". I "feel" alot in common with the sexless marriage guys, although I'm sure the physical release part for me is MUCH better. I don't normally feel the rest. 
As for the counseling thing, maybe you're right. I don't think so, as they were telling me things that were wrong with me: they just didn't make any sense. One guy said I was depressed, another lady said I had marriage/parenting issues based on my mom/dad, still another said I had anger issues. So am I sad, mad, or just stunted??? I don't think ANY of those apply to me and my situation, so no, I don't like spending money for someone to try and justify WHY I feel how I do, I'd like constructive things to work towards changing how I feel or the situation itself.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Of coarse I do not know you but my rough guess is that you did not really try to get over it because there was a part of you that did not want to get over it and did not feel that your behavior was the problem.

Well you are technically correct. Her behavior is the problem because if she would behave just like you want her to than there would be no problem.

You can't control her behavior, but you can control how you react if you see your behavior as being just as much to blame for the problem.

You may not get that perfect spouse that behaves just like you want her to. Your only goal can be make the best possible situation or
leave.

Your so caught up on who is she thinking about when she masturbates and that it is taking sex away from you that you are going to loose sight of the bigger picture. (which is all the other things about her that you probably like)

Easy for me to talk though, While my wife may not be the most enthusiastic lover she is not masturbating on the side (I am but not to take anything away from her)


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ET, I know this must feel like a slap in the face followed by a bitter pill to swallow, but just for a moment take the anger away, let go of the pain from your first marriage, take a few deep breaths and read this again.




usmarriedguy said:


> Of coarse I do not know you but my rough guess is that you *did not really try to get over it because there was a part of you that did not want to get over it* and did not feel that your behavior was the problem.
> 
> Well you are technically correct. Her behavior is the problem because *if she would behave just like you want her to than there would be no problem.*
> 
> ...



Could you try to imagine that she is thinking of you when she masturbates? That it is you in her stories, and you in her fantasies? Could you try really hard to believe that and if you did believe that how would things be different than they are now?

Married Guy, that was a good post!


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> ET, I know this must feel like a slap in the face followed by a bitter pill to swallow, but just for a moment take the anger away, let go of the pain from your first marriage, take a few deep breaths and read this again.
> 
> Could you try to imagine that she is thinking of you when she masturbates? That it is you in her stories, and you in her fantasies? Could you try really hard to believe that and if you did believe that how would things be different than they are now?
> 
> Married Guy, that was a good post!


I don't have much anger about it. More sadness, and some resentment, especially when I get towards a week or so without any intimacy from her. I think, perhaps, this might be a side-effect of her "type" of intimacy - which is relatively devoid of anything for me (I touch her, I go after her, I rub her, etc). So if I'm not aggressively initiating... there is relatively nothing. Any kissing beyond a peck - from me, cuddling beyond leaning together - from me, caressing - from me (I occasionally get my hair tousled for a minute or two), anything sexual beyond a wiggle against me - from me. So I always have to go to her, she rarely initiates or shows interest. 

I'm really not hung up on what she's thinking about. I think that's largely irrelevant. As I noted before AP, she likes the kink, and it's not something she's actually interested in REALLY doing (like gay men stories.... that's kind of, well, impossible). And again, if it weren't for the lost/undesired feelings I get left with, I wouldn't care about the masturbation part at all. Well, that might be stretching it as the majority of our sex life is basically her masturbating, too. Did we miss that part? Most of our sex is her masturbating, and I get to "fill the hole" if I happen to be home. It's not fulfilling, for whatever reason we want to label it. I'm "kept quiet", but not desired. 

All of this has actually been very interesting on an introspective level. This past few days/week has been MUCH different (did someone message her??). So while I write these things, I am out of the emotional state that I had drilled myself into over the holidays and beginning of the year issues - and I still feel the same. 

Again, I don't even actually know that she's masturbating or not - I'm trying THAT hard to not care. The point is, I don't normally feel desired. Yes, the past week or so has been different, but that hardly erases the past. 

What's the difference with this week you might ask? So far, no "aids" (and plenty of Os), initiation from her part (although still nothing really TO me, just clear signs she wants something to happen), little to no rejection, not making me feel pervy if I want to touch her. That last one used to be huge, she would constantly shy away from me and then get angry if I reacted at all (sad faces, etc), then tell me I was a sex maniac, etc. 

I don't know why the change, I know she had some bad dreams about us, so I don't have much hope it will continue. In the meantime, I'm trying to find some way to "reward" how she has been lately, but quite honestly besides buying some big present (which I think seems overboard), I already try to "reward" her all the time just for being her and all the things she does for us/the family. She has actually been more vocal this past week about appreciation for those things.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

Well, you said in your original post you had sex 1-2 times a week. That is not exactly extremes. She enjoys masturbating which I understand you would like that energy to go to you but if it does not than it does not. 

I guess you can try to make sex with you better than masturbating but you may not be able to beat it. Not because you are undesirable but because masturbating is easy and she knows herself she can relax and have fantasies with no disturbance.

Also try to get her to do some things which will build your confidence. 

Well I do not think I really understand, the original post seemed more intolerant of her hobby than the last and you mentioned an x and throwing out toys. I am guessing she did not randomly throw them out for no reason.

Anyway,
Seems like a complicated woman that you are going to have to figure out.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

ET1SSJonota said:


> I don't have much anger about it. More sadness, and some resentment, especially when I get towards a week or so without any intimacy from her. I think, perhaps, this might be a side-effect of her "type" of intimacy - which is relatively devoid of anything for me (I touch her, I go after her, I rub her, etc). So if I'm not aggressively initiating... there is relatively nothing. Any kissing beyond a peck - from me, cuddling beyond leaning together - from me, caressing - from me (I occasionally get my hair tousled for a minute or two), anything sexual beyond a wiggle against me - from me. So I always have to go to her, she rarely initiates or shows interest.


Essentially what you're saying is that your wife is a terrible bed mate, a selfish lover, and self absorbed. Do you think this describes her? If so, do you think her behavior is something that is a true reflection on your worth or your merits as a husband or lover?

Have you spoken to her about her lack of reciprocity in affection, touching during sex? If you have and she follows the pattern of stepping up a time or two then sliding back down to her default selfishness, is this something that you can simply keep reminding her about?



> I'm really not hung up on what she's thinking about. I think that's largely irrelevant. As I noted before AP, she likes the kink, and it's not something she's actually interested in REALLY doing (like gay men stories.... that's kind of, well, impossible). And again, if it weren't for the lost/undesired feelings I get left with, I wouldn't care about the masturbation part at all. Well, that might be stretching it as the majority of our sex life is basically her masturbating, too. Did we miss that part? Most of our sex is her masturbating, and I get to "fill the hole" if I happen to be home. It's not fulfilling, for whatever reason we want to label it. I'm "kept quiet", but not desired.


Yes, we did miss that part. I completely know how you feel. I had a thread a while ago that kind of discussed this from a woman's POV. What you are feeling is the lack of genuine emotion toward you. Maybe because you are a man, you don't notice, or maybe they're not important to you, all the other ways a spouse shows their FEELINGS toward their mate. My husband doesn't unless I remind him, prompt him, push him. It gets old and makes you feel like a needy puppy...please please love me? You're getting the same thing from your wife, only you feel it most strongly in bed and her reading is actually a red herring here.




> The point is, *I don't normally feel desired. * Yes, the past week or so has been different, but that hardly erases the past.


Join the lonely hearts club with me. You can be Vice President.



> What's the difference with this week you might ask? So far, no "aids" (and plenty of Os), initiation from her part (although still nothing really TO me, just clear signs she wants something to happen), little to no rejection, not making me feel pervy if I want to touch her. That last one used to be huge, she would constantly shy away from me and then get angry if I reacted at all (sad faces, etc), then tell me I was a sex maniac, etc.


This from a non-con fan? What a hypocrite! You have to shut that stuff down immediately! Call her on it! Good lord, this makes no sense. How can she call you a perv for wanting sex when she's reading about nonconsent sex and getting off on it? It's time she owns her freakiness!



> I don't know why the change, I know she had some bad dreams about us, so I don't have much hope it will continue. In the meantime, I'm trying to find some way to "reward" how she has been lately, but quite honestly besides buying some big present (which I think seems overboard), I already try to "reward" her all the time just for being her and all the things she does for us/the family. She has actually been more vocal this past week about appreciation for those things.



Oh geeshe! You are just like me. Toss us a bone and we wag our tails for weeks!

Lemme know if you figure out a way to reach her? I've got the same issue going on in my house.


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## usmarriedguy (Dec 9, 2013)

"not making me feel pervy if I want to touch her."

But I would have to question if she is actually trying to make him feel like a perv or she is simply responding in some way that he feels like a perv. Or the whole toy use thing makes him feel pervy.

What would be her motive for making you feel like a perv. Less sex?
I suppose if the tension is becoming too great maybe she is subconsciously or otherwise trying to slow it down but otherwise her libido seems to require regular maintenance. 

I just can't be sure about how much of this problem is being caused by his reactions over a fairly long period of time.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

usmarriedguy said:


> "not making me feel pervy if I want to touch her."
> 
> But I would have to question if she is actually trying to make him feel like a perv or she is simply responding in some way that he feels like a perv. Or the whole toy use thing makes him feel pervy.
> 
> ...


I'm certain that my reactions have added to the issue over time...

However, I'm also certain that I don't overreact to her statements. I have FLAT OUT been called a sex addict by her, had her pull vehemently away from me with very biting words to the effect of freak/addict/perv (although not specifically perv). Been told that me wanting it so much is a sign that I have an issue. Directly linking my desire for my own wife to some sort of sickness.


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## ET1SSJonota (Dec 25, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Do you think this describes her? If so, do you think her behavior is something that is a true reflection on your worth or your merits as a husband or lover?
> 
> Have you spoken to her about her lack of reciprocity in affection, touching during sex? If you have and she follows the pattern of stepping up a time or two then sliding back down to her default selfishness, is this something that you can simply keep reminding her about?
> 
> ...


Logically I don't think the issues reflect on me. Emotionally, I feel devastated that it is the only conclusion. Oy... I know hot mess right?

I fear constantly exposing the lack of emotion for several reasons, not the least of which being that it's simply true. The second of which is her being able to "fake it" for a short period and then getting too lazy makes me fear what ELSE she fakes (see previous issues).

Wag our tail... YES... that is how it feels. But boy does it feel nice to be content for that little while. Even dreading the return of the "nothingness"... le sigh..


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I felt the same way a few years ago, except none of the masturbation / toy issues. It just felt like she didn't look at my body, showed no enthusiasm during oral, and had sex just to make me happy. Afterwards, she almost made me feel guilty though. It was like the guilt hurt, but not enough to ever NOT ask her for sex every other night. She never said no, but mentally she never said yes.

I felt unattractive and totally undesired, yet I am very alpha and still made sure I had sex with my wife at least every other night. Maybe I should have backed off or sat back and wait for her to make a move on me, but I feared she never would. I would have eventually been on a once a week, or once a month sex thing. So I never waited and initiated.

Now we have sex twice a day, but one session we do not orgasm. It's more of a bonding thing to let us both know we appreciate each other without having the need to orgasm. The sex later at night helps the no orgasm thing work, as I do not feel desperate to orgasm everytime I touch her, because I know later she will take care of me.

Our catalyst was a near split up. Letters, communication, sit down talks, and everything else that was suggested, worked temporarily. I mean, I would read a letter and pour my heart out about everything she did sexually that made me feel awful. From feeling totally unwanted, to me spending hours licking her to make her feel just the opposite. Maybe the next time we had sex she would act like she wanted me, but immediately fell back into the exact same routine. 

I honestly think you have to be totally willing to give up your relationship to make it better. I feel like I am in a second marriage with my wife totally into me, and not just pretending. It seriously feels like the stories you hear about women that once their first husbands leave, the next husband gets everything you wanted because the woman realizes that her pride and childish/highschool like ideas about sex and how to treat a man died with the first relationship. 

Good luck.


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