# Pokerface



## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

You don't have to ask just the men. My wife can beat your husband ANY DAY.

So, that being said, my conclusion is that my wife stonewalls because she doesn't want to give me a truthful answer because it will be bad. She doesn't want to lie because she is terrified of getting caught in one. So... SILENCE.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Me & my husband never do this to each other, he knows I can not stand the silent treatment... I see this as a form of intentional belligerent emotional abuse...a form of control over another to drive them batty... I like to confront those who play these silly games... 

We used to have friends who both did this to each other, they would go WEEKS not talking to each other, of course they ended up divorced... 

I feel being humble to our own faults (surely we all have some clue to what is making them so angry)...is a good 1st step ...soften yourself...offering that "olive branch" before them........if this doesn't get you anywhere... making your intentions known...offering to listen... even leading to some consequences should get their wheels turning... 

This is a fine article with steps to deal with this, but it is more so talking about Friends... thought I would put it here anyway...the link itself has further explaining that what copied here... 

3 Ways to Confront Someone Who's Giving You the Silent Treatment



> *Initial steps...*
> 
> *1.* *Make sure you're not just being paranoid.*
> 
> ...


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

When my hubby is doing this, it is not intentional. Or maybe it is?lol

Every time this has happened, something else is occupying his mind and he's focusing on that other subject whatever it may be. He literally tunes everything else out when this happens. I'll wait until he has what's on his mind figured out before talking to him. I get better results this way and I don't get upset.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

betulanana said:


> In the evening when we both lay in bed *he has the habit of jumping up sometimes with a yell and starting to clean and fix stuff around the house.*


 What you said right here... have you had arguments over house cleaning by any chance...is it possible he is expecting you to do more around the house? (not saying you need to, but possibly in HIS mind?)....Just trying to make sense out of it. 

Ya know, if you both work...each would have their own duties to share.... His jumping up to fix things...do you feel he is stressed, too much on his plate....not enough time in the day....and it's causing him to be in a bad mood, so he clams up. 

Any way to alleviate the pressure ? 



> I asked him to stop it a gazillion of times. He did not. I asked him to explain his behaviour to me a gazillion of times. He did not.


 If you have had fights over house cleaning (for instance) and nothing became of it...he may have decided no amount of further talking will get him what he is desiring..... 

I am just guessing here of course....and could be way off !! 

Was he always like this , when dating...or this is a new behavior ...and if so, what has changed?

How is the sex life ? Is it possible he jumps up to do something because he feels rejected in bed and has to busy himself..Just grasping at straws here.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Could it be his way of disconnecting from you? Maybe he is afraid of being vulnerable emotionally.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I am a stay at home mom... cleaning the house is my job and I think I do it quite well.
> I asked my husband to give me a list of things to do if he thinks that needed to be done, he did not do this.
> *He often comes up with very funny task for himself. For example he polishes to shoes we wear in the garden. We bought them at a thrift store and only wear them in the garden. why do they need to be polished?*
> He disassembles things, cleans them, reassembles them.
> ...


Do you criticize or tease him for things like this?


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Do you criticize or tease him for things like this?


Yes, sometimes I do.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Yes, sometimes I do.


I suspect that may be part of the reason he shuts down. He does not feel safe with you. My ex wife was the same way, and I reacted similarly. It was simply to protect myself from my spouse.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This sounds OCD-like. His poker face could be his mentally fixating on OC thoughts while you are talking.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

It sounds like being criticized makes him shut down. Poker face is him withdrawing into himself so he shields himself from your words. He probably stops really "hearing" you when he does that. It's the equivalent of blocking his ears with his hands and saying, "la la la, I can't hear you!"

Was his mother or his father frequently critical of him? He could have learned that as a child.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

He is tired of being criticized. He does the poker face because he hates it and wishes you would shut it. Try finding a different way to express your thoughts to him.


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## Idun (Jul 30, 2011)

Normally he does this when I am over reacting to something, I just need to vent and though I'd like him to agree with everything I say I guess he doesn't want to encourage me. Eventually I catch up and realize I was over reacting.

If we're talking about something he has done wrong though, he may seize up because he can't get his thoughts together when I go agro. Studies have shown that men have impeded blood blow to the areas of the brain that control speech and language - when they're being confronted in an argument and stressed. I wish I could find the article and link it! But that would explain why my H can sometimes have trouble getting his thoughts out when we're arguing. It gives women a big advantage in arguments... to talk a lot - but not necessarily have a productive outcome. So yeah in that case the poker face might be because they're genuinely stumped and can't get their words out.

This is along those lines Men Are From Mars -- Neuroscientists Find That Men And Women Respond Differently To Stress Men get 'fight or flight' response during stress, women don't. The fight or flight is good for reacting with action, not empathy or speaking with words, feelings.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This sounds OCD-like. His poker face could be his mentally fixating on OC thoughts while you are talking.


It could be this, yeah. Or he is being manipulative with this poker face.

The emotions she feels are his intention.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I don't want my husband to feel unsafe around me. Not sure if that could really be the case. I am a harmless person, and *he is a Vet*, bigger than me and 15 years my senior.
> 
> Now if he still felt unsafe around me, how could I know it? Would there be other signs?
> 
> What should I do if it was the case? If I don't like one of his behaviours and want to make him change what ca I do? What do you wish your wife had done?


If he was in the military, he very likely could have learned to keep a poker face while getting yelled at by his commanding officers. The military is one place where expressing your thoughts and feelings is not encouraged.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I don't want my husband to feel unsafe around me. Not sure if that could really be the case. I am a harmless person, and he is a Vet, bigger than me and 15 years my senior.
> 
> Now if he still felt unsafe around me, how could I know it? Would there be other signs?
> 
> What should I do if it was the case? If I don't like one of his behaviours and want to make him change what ca I do? What do you wish your wife had done?


I'm sure he feels physically safe. He may not feel emotionally safe and is protecting himself by keeping his emotions inside.

Is he affectionate with you? I'm not talking sexually. Does he randomly kiss you, hug you, hold your hand? Does he open up to you about things that may be bothering him without you having to ask? Does he share things that he is happy about?

I would suggest not bringing up the possibility of OCD until you have made absolutely certain that he doesn't have any issues with you because it will come off like you are trying to blame something else, and not taking responsibility for your actions.

My ex wife did that all the time. Would blame my shutting down on lack of sleep, depression, my childhood, and never once considered it was because I felt like she treated me as nothing more than a walking ATM.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You very much DO have the power to make him feel unsafe. You are supposed to be his support, his comfort person, and when you criticize things that he says or does, it makes him feel vulnerable. When he does odd things like cleaning in the middle of the night, or polishing garden shoes, just leave him be and let him do his thing. He isnt hurting anything, and he isnt making more work for you, so just, learn to let it go.


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## ManOhMan2013 (Aug 1, 2013)

I wish I had a PokerFace. My problem is that I show how I really feel to people and they don't like it.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

He might be a little OCD but I don't think that's related to his Pokerface. Many men don't like what they believe to be unnecessary venting about a subject that has been previously discussed. We discuss it, make a conclusion and move on. If your going on and on about someone or something he's most likely just tuning you out and not listening anymore. It probably a blank stare while his brain is occupied by something he's interested in.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Sorry for another short answer again.
> 
> He is hurting:
> 
> ...


You do not seem to be understanding here. This has NOTHING to do with physical safety. I'm sure he is not feeling like you are going to physically harm him. This all has NOTHING to do with that. It is all about EMOTIONAL SAFETY.

Have you ever, even once, told him he is wrong when he expresses his feelings? Have you ever, even once, told him how he should be feeling? Has he ever told you he is upset about something, and you tell him why he is wrong for being upset? Those are the kinds of things that make a person feel EMOTIONALLY UNSAFE.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

He will never express his thoughts and feelings to you if he believes that you will only criticize him. That's what it means to feel "unsafe".


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Not sure. He does not talk about his feelings very often. So I have few chances to tell him he is wrong when he expresses his feelings.
> May be yes. I remember an argument which we had. It was actually about a TV-Series losely based on a series of books. Both of us had red that book years ago and it did not mean much to any of us. Now we started to watch the series and he disliked it for the sole reason that it was not like the books... the very books he did not care for at all and that it was not set in the 19th but in the 21th century.
> Now he left the room after the first commercial break and did not return and I watched the rest. I started to like it.
> 
> ...


Do you often tell him how to think & feel?
That's a HUGE way to become disconnected from your spouse.
You're his partner, not his keeper, he is allowed to feel & think how he wants, just as you are as well.
I mentioned this in your other thread, I do believe your husband needs to seek therapy for his military experiences.
He sounds like he is hurting emotionally & mentally.
If he doesn't want to seek out a therapist, then a support group of other vets could really help him.
There he can find others who share similar experiences, who are also feeling the way he is, which can be very helpful to him. 

I think you're making this out to be about only you & how when he does "XZY", it's a personal affront to you, when in reality he's doing the best he can to cope & yet you're taking it personally. 
I don't think he's doing anything TO you, he's doing the best he can with the tools he has. 
BTW, my husband is active duty, he's been deployed 5 times, I know what I speak of when it comes to dealing with the emotional issues of those who have served. 
Maybe you should seek out a support group for spouses of vets & service members, I think it would really help for you to speak with others going through this.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I understand. The point is just that we have never discussed the subject because he does not engage in the discussion. I try to tell him how I think but he actually could not care less... at least that is the impression I get.
> 
> And I think that this is unfair... because I have my reasons to hate this behaviour of his and I did my very best to explain them to him.
> 
> ... and it is very important to me. I just want him to see my point or if he does not see it at least discuss it with me.


Has he ever been a talker? Has he ever expressed his feelings openly to you?

If not, then he's not likely to change without some major upheaval in his mind. I don't know what would open the gates to speech.

If he used to be more expressive but he's shut down recently, that's something you might be able to work with if you can figure out what shut him down.

It's really hard to have a relationship with someone who won't talk with you.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Not sure. He does not talk about his feelings very often. So I have few chances to tell him he is wrong when he expresses his feelings.
> May be yes. I remember an argument which we had. It was actually about a TV-Series losely based on a series of books. Both of us had red that book years ago and it did not mean much to any of us. Now we started to watch the series and he disliked it for the sole reason that it was not like the books... the very books he did not care for at all and that it was not set in the 19th but in the 21th century.
> Now he left the room after the first commercial break and did not return and I watched the rest. I started to like it.
> 
> ...


Do you often feel the need to be right?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Later we discussed the series and I said I was going to watch the rest of it. He answered he was not going to watch it for the afromentioned reasons. I told him he was wrong for being upset about the setting being the 21st century because it was much more interesting like that and had he not left he would just agree with me... I also told him that it made no sense he was angry about the series not being true to the books if he actually did not care that much for the books... and he was a little pissed of because I was trying to tell him how to think. He ended up hating the series that much that he left the room whenever I was going to watch it.
> 
> Should I have made him feel unsafe I regret it.


Um, who are you to tell him what he thinks is wrong? He is as entitled to his opinion as you are. This is a perfect example of what we have all been trying to tell you, you seem clueless that this is hurtful.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I don't want my husband to feel unsafe around me. Not sure if that could really be the case. I am a harmless person, and he is a Vet, bigger than me and 15 years my senior.
> 
> Now if he still felt unsafe around me, how could I know it? Would there be other signs?
> 
> What should I do if it was the case? If I don't like one of his behaviours and want to make him change what ca I do? What do you wish your wife had done?


From how you have described your husband, I doubt he is being manipulative.

I am a professional. Relatively accomplished in my lines of work (all of which require meeting people and public speaking) and I could possibly pass for a running back in NFL (less the bank balance). I am a very confident person and very capable of engaging in robust but respectful discussion if needed. These are needed for my jobs. Please note I am not bragging at all.

I only say these because, despite all these, I totally go into brain-lock mode when my stbx goes on at me. In my head when she starts to complain about something which she most likely has mentioned before, a sort of 'game-theory' process starts to take place in my head.

I start running through how she would possibly respond if I said X. Then I think, so if I said Y she would say Z. If she says Z, i will get more upset than I already feel and because I really don't want to feel anymore hurt, I will just keep quiet. Oh but if I keep quiet, she'll think I am giving the silent treatment which will piss her off. However, if I say something, she may get pissed off anyway so being unsure which option will achieve the best outcome as to avoid confrontation - I often just keep quiet or give short answers like: "Ok", "I see", "I'm sorry", "Right". 

As our marriage got worse due to other issues and because I just hate arguments - I simply started saying what was literally going on in my head which was "I am sorry but I don't know what to say. I am not ignoring you - I just have nothing to say"

All these may explain why he gives you the 'poker face' as you call it. In my case, I didn't want to say something that would hurt both our feelings so I just keep quiet. This doesn't happen in any other area of my life.

I think there perhaps should be a better understanding of why people behave in a certain way as SimplyAmorous nicely articulated instead of throwing labels such as stonewalling, poker face etc around. Some people do not take happily to being harangued, be-littled or even 'reminded'. Odd, I know but then aren't we all eh?!


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Not sure. He does not talk about his feelings very often. So I have few chances to tell him he is wrong when he expresses his feelings.
> May be yes. I remember an argument which we had. It was actually about a TV-Series losely based on a series of books. Both of us had red that book years ago and it did not mean much to any of us. Now we started to watch the series and he disliked it for the sole reason that it was not like the books... the very books he did not care for at all and that it was not set in the 19th but in the 21th century.
> Now he left the room after the first commercial break and did not return and I watched the rest. I started to like it.
> 
> ...


Errm sorry. Was the last sentence meant to be an apology or an expression of regret?

betulanana, I am sorry to say that I am not sure you realise how much an adult man (and I dare say woman) hates being told how to think or feel especially in such a condescending manner. It does not surprise me at all that he shuts down or walks away from what could otherwise have been some time for you guys to spend together.

Re: the latter and from my own experience, until I met my stbx, I had no real contact with feminism as an ideology. i just got on with life and tried to treat everyone fairly as best i could. Then queen justice comes into my life and in a very strong way, tries to convince me of the wonders of her version feminism. It really wasn't my thing but oh no! How dare you tell me that. You don't know anything about it. So, I started reading up on feminism and came up with my own set of views. When we talked about it, I dare'nt have a contrary view. Even worse, one that suggest feminism is an equally flawed ism as many other isms around. Witnessing her response, you would have thought I just cursed God or exposed myself in public.

I felt she was trying to control me and my ability to think for myself. We had so many darn fights around this matter that I ended up having a huge amount of resentment and deep skepticism towards feminism. Now I don't talk about it with her and if ever she starts bringing up something that's around the topic - she gets a poker face or very short answers. Why? Cos I remember what happened in the past and I do not want to be treated like an idiot. I feel for you and your hubby


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

betulanana said:


> As for that stupid series and our disagreement about it:
> I realise that I should have been acting different. I just mention it because you guys asked me if I had ever told him his feelings were wrong. *Yes, I did that one time*.
> This is really nothing I am religious about. If he does not like it it's fine with me. I just did not want him to miss all the fun and did not understand why he was so opinionated about a series he did not know much about... especially if he did not care about the books.
> 
> ...


I suspect that this isn't the only time. From your communication style here, I have a feeling that this is your normal way of communicating with your husband...that it has been so ingrained in you that you do not even realize you are doing it, but I gurantee you, he does.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

betulanana said:


> So sorry to ask for your advice again...
> 
> but what do you do when you complain about something and your husband just meets it with a poker-face.
> 
> @ husbands: When your wife wants to talk to you and you just give her that pokerface, why do you do this?


I did the pokerface quite often. Why? Because of my Ex's short fuse. He had anger management issues and would yell at the drop of a hat. He even yelled at me once because of some sort of facial expression I had when he said something (to this day I don't recall what it was). Ever since then, I weighed my words, put on my pokerface, and responded to him to share the thoughts that I could express without making him angry.

I'm glad those days are over.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

betulanana said:


> I havn't got any idea what makes him so angry or if he is angry at all. Really. No clue.
> 
> Okay, I do complain... but only because he does not explain his behaviour to me.
> In the evening when we both lay in bed he has the habit of jumping up sometimes with a yell and starting to clean and fix stuff around the house. I asked him to stop it a gazillion of times. He did not. I asked him to explain his behaviour to me a gazillion of times. He did not.
> ...


And there you have your answer. He remembers those times when you "overreacted" and has decided that he doesn't want to push that button of yours again. He does not trust that you won't "overreact" again. He want peace.

So, if you can convince him that "overreacting" is a thing of the past, perhaps he will start to open up a bit.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

My husband did have communication issues, he is still working on doing a better job of it.
He went to therapy by himself & also with me, the therapist was prior service so it did help with him being able to relate to my H's experiences.

Here are 3 very good resources, 
Military & Family Life Consultant Program, 888-755-9355
https://www.mhngs.com/app/home.content

Military OneSource, 800-342-9647
http://www.militaryonesource.mil

Also try The Soldiers Project, it's also a free service & does help with vets. 
https://www.facebook.com/SoldiersProject

Hopefully one of these will be able to help, I'm not certain regarding your H's status as a vet, my experience has been with my H being Active Duty.
At the very least they can point you in the right direction.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

Is his response right? Probably not. But I do know the causes of that reaction:

Talking too much
Circle logic. The coversation is looping
Bored of the subject
No solution to the topic
Criticizing while trying to talk
Answers her own questions when asking you
Asks you a question, but doesn't like your answer

All of the above is nonsense. I want to be left alone when this happens. No room to talk for myself. Doesn't care about my input. And run-on conversations are meaningless to me. I get her wanting to vent though, but this kind of communicaation is different. She wants to talk non-stop, wants answers and solutions, but doesn't care what I say. And that's if I get a chance to speak.

What I always pray for, and it never happens, is that she'll pick up on the quiet nods, the "yeah", "ok", "right" and my body language, and back off. But that never happens. In three years, for the first time ever, she asked me if she was being annoying. I just looked at her and point blank said yes you are.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

So you want to say that it is pretty pointless trying to talk to a man once he has the pokerface, right?


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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

Nah. If the subject can be changed to something interesting, or a conversation that actually has a point. You can re-engage him. But if the "face", as you say, and his body language aren't changing... if he's like me will shut down, and want nothing to do with you.

My wifes notices my disengagement, and it goes down hill fast. Change topic? No, lets ask him why he's mad. But i'm not. Then she'll continue to cattle prod me until she figures out why i'm "mad". Now she's made me mad, when she could of instead, noticed my complete disinterest, and change the topic already. Beating horses is pointless, and will ruin communications in the marriage.


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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

Nah. If the subject can be changed to something interesting, or a conversation that actually has a point. You can re-engage him. But if the "face", as you say, and his body language aren't changing... if he's like me will shut down, and want nothing to do with you.

My wifes notices my disengagement, and it goes down hill fast. Change topic? No, lets ask him why he's mad. But i'm not. Then she'll continue to cattle prod me until she figures out why i'm "mad". Now she's made me mad, when she could of instead, noticed my complete disinterest, and change the topic already. Beating horses is pointless, and will ruin communications in the marriage.


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## Aiea (Jun 20, 2011)

The reason men respond in this manner (the pokerface) lies in the fact that men and women think differently. 

Ultimately it is because either they don't know what to say or how to respond, or they know exactly what to say but know they will be criticized, yelled at, judged, etc. if they respond. If a man can't feel emotionally safe to share his thoughts and feelings without being judged by his wife, he will avoid, lie, and pokerface until it is safe to get out of the conversation. 

Men are rather simple but women tend to complicate things and expect their husbands to think and react the way another woman does. It drives men to close down or tell white lies in order to survive. Learning how men *really *think and stop assuming how they think and feel will greatly improve communication. 

"I am a man, I can change, if I have to..."


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Mostly, a bunch of guys here have wives who trample on their emotions on a regular basis and who are projecting those behaviors onto you. That said, some of your words really sound like stuff my wife has said before. OTOH, it might help people to focus more on your situation if you described a typical conversation which ended poorly involving pokerface.

Why did I do pokerface?

The basic pattern is that I tended to deal with abusive, controlling, and invalidating behaviors with a pokerface.

Stuff to avoid:
1. Punishing people for the wrong answer. Usually, if you have a complaint, your husband (assuming he's a decent guy) has an honest answer. Which is 'No. I think that what I did was actually the right thing.' Otherwise, he'd have done something else. If you argue about this for longer than 15 minutes or blow up, he will start going pokerface.
2. Invalidation. Either by insisting that he focus on your issue or by insisting that he's wrong to feel the way he does. A pokerface is a reasonable response to someone who isn't interested in hearing you.
3. Blowing up when you see a pokerface. This is perfectly natural and happens with lots of women. But it doesn't help.
4. Simply being uncomfortable with expression of aggressive emotion. Lots of men are...it is one of the ways that we learn to not punch people in the face when they're rude.

Why I stopped:
I realized that avoiding conflict with a pokerface created an avoidant dynamic in the R/S where my wife would frantically chase me. This type of dynamic is a common dysfunctional pattern and should be avoided. Basically, your husband is better off with:
'Be quiet. I'm busy. No seriously. What's your problem? I'm out of here.'
'No. I understand your blah-blah point. But, you're wrong. Hear me out. Blah blah. Maybe I can compromise here. (Nope?) This discussion is going nowhere. And stop wasting my time.'
'That's disrespectful. I'm out of here.'
'Really just not interested. We'll talk later.'

Than he is with a pokerface, which can be quite aggravating to women. It is usually a good response at work. As, more often than not, showing genuine emotion at work is an excellent way to be fired. I've fired people and had friends fired for not having a decent pokerface.

Is this solely his or your responsibility? No. A pokerface response is usually a sign of low empathy on the part of the speaker towards the listener. Either you're wearing out your welcome by talking too much or making your husband uncomfortable in some way. Basically, your husband is probably not doing a pokerface around polite people. OTOH, a pokerface, IMHO, is usually a sign of unhealthy passivity.***

Better yet, a certain amount of nonviolent communication can leave everyone feeling safer. I highly recommend 'Mastering the Mysteries of Love', an excellent free marital communication course possibly offered in your local church.

However, the single simplest method...

'Oh, I'm sorry. I get the feeling you're going pokerface on me. I really appreciate you listening to me. If you can, please tell me why you're going pokerface. (And, if he does, under no circumstances can you take any sort of offense.*) If not, when would be a good time to talk about this? Just get over the notion that you're entitled to have your husband listen to you whether or not he wants to.

Once you get past that notion, adaptation, eg, talking some thing over with other friends may be necessary.

Alternatively, some men really do constantly pokerface their wives for basically no reason. Those men would probably do so from the beginning of the R/S. Based just on listening to you, I'm kind of guessing it isn't the case. However, I could easily be wrong.

--Argyle
*That includes...'Well, you're an absolute i*t to believe that. And no, I'm not changing my behavior. I am simply tired of wasting my time listening to this BS.'

**Overgeneralizing horribly and stereotyping, but, once you remove the 'aggressive physical action option', men are, in my limited experience, less able to defend themselves than women.
***Sometimes people just have different communication styles. My standard of confrontation involves...'So, could I bring something up if now is a good time to talk?' My wife's is 'You #$%#$, #$%#$. This is just not #$ acceptable. Either this stops or I will #$ cut your #$ throat!!!'


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## Kria (Aug 4, 2013)

Some of you men are just really immature. If I need to talk to you about important issues like things that need to get done around the house or money issues then I need you to not shut down or tune out. I need your undivided attention. How else do you expect things to get resolved because things don't just go away or resolve themselves.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Phenix, thank you so much.
> We are not from America... actually we are not from an English speaking country at all. I just write here because my husband does not speak English all to well.
> So I am so sorry that you spend time searching for this. Sorry I asked you for it. I thought it was another kind of ressource.
> 
> ...


It's ok, no worries, there could be someone reading this thread here in the US & the info could be useful to them.
I keep the info handy because you never know who may need it.

My husband has his own Poker Face, which I think for him is learned behavior from his father.
I've watched how his dad interacts with his mom & it's a perfect twin to what my husband does.
The difference to how I react & how his mom reacts is I refuse to let him hide behind his Poker Face, his mom cowers & gives up.
Literally letting him get away with bad behavior. 
My H has thanked me many times for not giving up on him when he retreats to that behavior. 
As I've told him, he is an adult, he is not a petulant child who can essentially turn his head away from the problem.
We are a unit, when there are issues to be revolved, it IS better to do so together, as a united front, then to struggle apart.
Besides, the issues are usually resolved quicker when we react together, then separately. 

What I do when he tries to retreat, is I tell him that by doing that, he's just going to prolong what the issue is, that in order to move on, we need to resolve it as cleanly as we can & not drag it out.
I remind him it's like pulling a band-aid off, it's better to pull it off at once, then to slowly try to peel it off. 

Regarding his military service, with all of his deployments, it's no wonder he does sometimes have a shorter fuse than before.
He has worked hard to deal with his anger but sometimes it does rear it's ugly head.
It's those times when I back off, I will let him alone to cool down because when he gets like that, anything I say just makes it worse.
This doesn't happen often, thanks to his therapy, maybe once or twice a year.
Whereas before he would probably have a blow up at least once a month.
For him, he had one deployment that was almost 16 months long, it was that one that changed him, I do think it was just too much time in a high stress environment.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Kria said:


> Some of you men are just really immature. If I need to talk to you about important issues like things that need to get done around the house or money issues then I need you to not shut down or tune out. I need your undivided attention. How else do you expect things to get resolved because things don't just go away or resolve themselves.


haha. This is tantamount to a man saying "Some of you women are terribly immature for crying just because I didn't compliment you or even notice your new mascara. Why do you cry over every little thing just because you can"

Why is it so bad for men to articulate their feelings? Men who know what OP is really asking are helping her to better understand WHY they do what they do. Not sure the reasons are anymore immature than wanting to have your new dress noticed..sheesh


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

KalmAndKollected said:


> Is his response right? Probably not. But I do know the causes of that reaction:
> 
> Talking too much
> Circle logic. The coversation is looping
> ...


:rofl:


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## Kria (Aug 4, 2013)

iBolt said:


> haha. This is tantamount to a man saying "Some of you women are terribly immature for crying just because I didn't compliment you or even notice your new mascara. Why do you cry over every little thing just because you can"


Just like I said there are some immature men, of course there are also some immature women. The difference is that I brought up some big household issues like discussing money matters and you bring up a frivolous issue like compliments on mascara. I don't wear makeup so that is not a concern of mine. Also, I am not one of those women that cries over every little thing. I mostly keep crying to myself unless it is about a serious matter like a death in the family and such.



iBolt said:


> Why is it so bad for men to articulate their feelings? Men who know what OP is really asking are helping her to better understand WHY they do what they do. Not sure the reasons are anymore immature than wanting to have your new dress noticed..sheesh


I want a man to communicate and articulate his feelings instead of stonewalling. A couple should be able to have conversations and discussions on big and small matters. As far as compliments are concerned, I want a man to appreciate me the person and not just necessarily a new outfit. I don't expect compliments from anyone but I will nicely accept them.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

OP, have you tried writing to him? Sometimes that can be a helpful way to talk through issues. It gives you time to think about what you really want to say, and gives him time to think about what you said and what he thinks about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> haha. This is tantamount to a man saying "Some of you women are terribly immature for crying just because I didn't compliment you or even notice your new mascara. Why do you cry over every little thing just because you can"


Actually it's very immature to cry over not getting compliments and/or someone not noticing your new mascara.

If the spouse *chronically* shows lack of appreciation, cannot complement, etc once in a while then why waste one tear or one word in complain?. The marriage is long gone at that point.




iBolt said:


> Why is it so bad for men to articulate their feelings? Men who know what OP is really asking are helping her to better understand WHY they do what they do. Not sure the reasons are anymore immature than wanting to have your new dress noticed..sheesh


Do you really think that have their dress and mascara noticed is what women are about?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Kria said:


> Just like I said there are some immature men, of course there are also some immature women. The difference is that I brought up some big household issues like discussing money matters and you bring up a frivolous issue like compliments on mascara. I don't wear makeup so that is not a concern of mine. Also, I am not one of those women that cries over every little thing. I mostly keep crying to myself unless it is about a serious matter like a death in the family and such.
> 
> 
> 
> I want a man to communicate and articulate his feelings instead of stonewalling. A couple should be able to have conversations and discussions on big and small matters. As far as compliments are concerned, I want a man to appreciate me the person and not just necessarily a new outfit. I don't expect compliments from anyone but I will nicely accept them.


It's the stonewalling thing. Instead of addressing an issue, poker face or stonewalling accomplishes nothing. Talking things out does accomplish things.

In my experience stonewalling/poker face is used to avoid have to deal with things and very often to avoid taking responsibility.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here’s my take on one of your issues…
A person uses a poker face to avoid talking to someone. It’s usually a condescending way to tell them that the pokerfaced-person thinks they are stupid, ignorant, boring, etc.


betulanana said:


> I havn't got any idea what makes him so angry or if he is angry at all. Really. No clue.
> 
> Okay, I do complain... but only because he does not explain his behaviour to me.


Stop trying to guess what his moods/feeling are. If he does not want to share it with you verbally by telling you what’s going on in his head, then leave him alone. Actually ignore him. He’s acting like a petulant child. An adult says “I’m very upset (angry, axious, etc) right now. I need to handle it on my own so please give me space for a while.” But that’s ok, we all act out at times.



betulanana said:


> In the evening when we both lay in bed he has the habit of jumping up sometimes with a yell and starting to clean and fix stuff around the house. I asked him to stop it a gazillion of times. He did not. I asked him to explain his behaviour to me a gazillion of times. He did not.


He probably has some anxiety and is handling it via OCD… cleaning. So let him clean.

The polishing the old shoes makes sense to me. He’s ex-military. They polish everything. Polishing the old shoes will make the last for a very long time… makes perfect sense. Cleaning is symbolic. It’s a way to put an world back in order. He’s cleaning/ordering his mental world when he does this. Just leave him alone. Even tell him that you like the things he’s doing as they help… but don’t tell him too often. He is dealing with his own private daemons in his own way.

Does his jumping up and yelling disturb you? Are you half asleep and it wakes you up? That kind of thing? This is where you tell him that you need your space. It’s ok for him to get up and clean all he wants. It’s not ok for him to jump up, yell and disturb your rest/sleep. So you need to set a boundary here.



betulanana said:


> I tried to tolerate it but it is way to annoying. So I complain about it and he does this pokerface thing... which makes me really angry and makes me overreact at times and I am sorry for that.


Do not over react and stop talking to him about it. Instead find a way that his doing this disturbs your space as much as possible. 

Write him a note to tell him that since he will not let you know what is going on with him when he behaves this way, you will just give him space. If he wants to talk you will listen. Your major concern is for his wellbeing. He needs sleep and peace and with you could help him find it. But he will need to be the one figure this out alone unless he seeks your help and support.
But you expect him to also respect your space. His jumping up and yelling disturbs your rest and sleep. Sometimes his cleaning does as well. He needs to do this in a way that does not disturb you. Don’t yell. Get up quietly and go do his thing in rooms so that you can get your rest/sleep.


betulanana said:


> I just want to understand it.


He does not understand it. How can you?

Just stop bugging him. He will figure it out or not on his own since he does not want to involve you. But you protect your boundaries.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

iBolt said:


> haha. This is tantamount to a man saying "Some of you women are terribly immature for crying just because I didn't compliment you or even notice your new mascara. Why do you cry over every little thing just because you can"
> 
> Why is it so bad for men to articulate their feelings? Men who know what OP is really asking are helping her to better understand WHY they do what they do. Not sure the reasons are anymore immature than wanting to have your new dress noticed..sheesh


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

"When you complain about something..."

now is that 95% of your waking moments or more?


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## KalmAndKollected (Sep 26, 2012)

What's with the jumping out of bed with a yell about? What is the yell? Is it agitation, conversation you just had? I know you're both "half asleep", but something is triggering the yell. What is it?


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

betulanana said:


> Yeah, my husband told me polishing that shoes will make them last longer... but it still makes no sense because they were cheap and it does not matter if the last long. The shoe-polish is so much more expensive.


You need to let this go. It makes him feel better to polish the shoes. The cost of the shoe-polish is worth it. Stop paying attention to this, he apparently need to do with for his OCD.
You need to learn to let things go that are not important. Him polishing old shoes it of no importance whatsoever.


betulanana said:


> Yes, it disturbs me. I am half asleep and if he yells like this I am just so startled. I tried to explain to him, but I am not sure if he understands.


This and his lack of sleep is the only part of his behavior that you need to be thinking about. His disturbing you is unacceptable.



betulanana said:


> I asked him to please stop this. Cleaning stuff in the middle of the night... okay I really don't like it.... but this jumping up... boy. You just think "What happened? Is the house burning down? Are the burglars?"... because if you are halfway asleep you need some seconds to realise that this is just his normal behavior... and then I am wide awake... and I really do need my sleep because I am a mother.
> 
> Whenever I ask him to stop this he just pokerfaced me
> 
> I have no idea how to set a boundary for him. I tried to. It did not work. I brought up that issue again and again and again, told him how it makes me feel, begged him to stop it. In vain.


You tell him that he has to either find a quiet, non-disturbing way to handle his insomnia and OCD or he has to go sleep in another room so that your sleep is not disturbed by his yelling and getting up.


betulanana said:


> Edit: The problem with just letting him polish the shoes or what ever he is doing is that he won't stop... he will come up with another task after that... and still another task after that... and so on. One day I just let him do whatever he wanted to do and followed him around and he kept himself busy until four o'clock in the morning.


You are trying to control him. STOP IT. If he wants to stay up to 4 polishing shoes and cleaning up he has the right to do that. Your husband seems to suffer from OCD and insomnia. Your nagging him about it will not stop him and does not help. Sometimes people have to fight their own daemons their own way.


betulanana said:


> Also one cannot be sure that he will be coming back to bed. Sometimes he just falls asleep another place and I think that this is not healthy for him.


Have you talked to him about seeing a doctor about insomnia? If he can stop the insomnia the rest of this will stop.
Can you find Melatonin? It’s a supplement. It’s the chemical our bodies produce when the sun goes down to make us sleepy. I use it for my insomnia. I take it half hour before bedtime. By the end of the half hour I cannot keep my eyes open.

Or how about things like over the counter sleep aids. Go talk to your pharmacist about what is available in your country.

Then tell him that you are concerned about him not getting enough sleep and ask him to try something.

Concentrate on him not waking you up and on him getting enough sleep. Stop bugging him about what he does when he has insomnia.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Two things...
(a) He seems to have OCD and insomnia. He can't change this on his own. (or he would) He's also waking from sleep with a yell, which is just weird. You seem bothered by this, which is ok and normal but probably not too helpful. An awful lot of people (a) can't change their differences and (b) feel an awful lot of shame/denial already, so yelling doesn't help.

Here, you might want to brainstorm some options assuming he can't change. Even if he changes, it'll take years.
(1) Earplugs: I personally use _wax_ earplugs and a blindfold for my eyes because my wife tends to stay up until 2 AM watching movies on a tablet in bed. Wax earplugs are amazing. Foam earplugs are not. I slept through a screaming fit at one point.
(2) Setting up a separate bed for him to sleep in - with some soundproofing. (Personally, I prefer sharing a bed, but some of my extreme snoring relatives don't.)

You also might want to brainstorm some options assuming he's interested in change. The obvious option are books, therapy, and medication. They all have tradeoffs.

(b) Handling conversations
Stuff that wasn't optimal: 
(1) Starting a discussion without giving fair warning: It really works much better to ask before starting a discussion.
(2) Starting a discussion in the middle of the night: Seriously...groggy much? You're best off treating serious/emotional discussions as akin to operating heavy machinery. Don't do them when you're tired, upset, drunk,...
(3) Lecturing instead of listening: You're asking him to stop instead of asking why he's doing something crazy. There's almost certainly a reason.
(3a) Stonewalling instead of listening: It would be better for him to say he was taking you seriously but couldn't talk at that moment.
(4) Continuing a discussion that didn't involve communication: Stonewalling and getting upset should be dealt with using timeouts. Powering through them mostly doesn't work and wastes time. Both people are responsible for calling a timeout. Timeouts should typically be 15-60 minutes (time for hormones to flush out of your system).
(5) Starting a discussion with someone in the midst of an OCD episode. (That's similar to my discussing something with my wife when she's having a panic attack. A: Honey, we need to talk about the garbage. W: (Bangs head and rocks.) A: You're not listening...)
(6) Blowing up...perfectly understandable, but not usually helpful.
(7) Both of you not bringing the problem up later. This is also perfectly understandable, but one of the main problems of communication breakdown is not getting stuff resolved.
(8) Starting a discussion without planning it out. There are worksheets, eg, in the 'Mastering the Mysteries of Love' handout...presumably also elsewhere.

Something that might work better...

The next day*...
W: Hi, honey, how are you feeling? I'd like to talk about something if you're up to listening to me. If not, please give me a time when you can talk. I promise I'll keep it to within 30 min and we'll stop if either of us gets upset.
H: Okay. 8 PM.
W: (sets 30 min timer) Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to me. I noticed that for the last 4 nights, you've gotten up with a yell at 2 AM and started frantically cleaning the house. I'm upset because I'm losing sleep and worried about you losing sleep. I'm also feeling a bit weirded out by this behavior because I've never seen anyone else doing it.
H: So, I've woken you up by yelling and you're worried about me. Is there more?
W: Nope. I'd like to hear what's going on with you.
H: Well, I'm OCD and freak out in the middle of the night. I can't stand staying in bed then. I'm also feeling a bit hurt because you think I'm odd... (I'm just guessing...) I've been doing this for years, so I think my job will be ok but I understand that you're scared and losing sleep.
W: I hear that you feel really agitated late at night and that you feel hurt. I don't understand OCD. It would help me be less scared if you were willing to try explaining what's going on. I would really appreciate it if you tried. 
H: ...
W: So, can we do something about this? I have a few ideas if you're willing to listen.
H: ...
Timer...Buzz.
W: Thank you so much. That helped me a lot. I really appreciate you talking to me and understand that this can't have been easy. I love and respect you. Let's watch TV or something else relaxing.

--Argyle
*Y'know, if the discussion went badly (to the point where you both lost tons of extra sleep, you might want to allow a few days recovery time.)
**Lastly, if you have trouble with the later conversation, an exercise which made us feel really silly but which helped a lot of people...
Is to practice showing that you understand the other person by reflecting their words using the 'I' pronoun instead of 'you'. 
'I (H) feel really uncomfortable in bed at 4 AM.'


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Kria said:


> Just like I said there are some immature men, of course there are also some immature women. *The difference is that I brought up some big household issues like discussing money matters and you bring up a frivolous issue like compliments on mascara.* I don't wear makeup so that is not a concern of mine. Also, I am not one of those women that cries over every little thing. I mostly keep crying to myself unless it is about a serious matter like a death in the family and such.
> 
> 
> 
> *I want a man to communicate and articulate his feelings instead of stonewalling.* A couple should be able to have conversations and discussions on big and small matters. As far as compliments are concerned, I want a man to appreciate me the person and not just necessarily a new outfit. I don't expect compliments from anyone but I will nicely accept them.


1, You consider that example as frivolous but there is a thread I have read on here where a lady has listed as one of her disappointments something akin to this. Since I don't know you, the example is precisely what it is - an example

2, I understand your point about what is an ideal way of doing things but your initial response, in my view, seemed to mock the rather mature and thorough explanations that several men have tried to give with respect to OP. To simply say "Oh man up man and quit being childish. Use your words and grow up.." I think is not helpful


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

Kria said:


> Just like I said there are some immature men, of course there are also some immature women. The difference is that I brought up some big household issues like discussing money matters and you bring up a frivolous issue like compliments on mascara. I don't wear makeup so that is not a concern of mine. Also, I am not one of those women that cries over every little thing. I mostly keep crying to myself unless it is about a serious matter like a death in the family and such.
> 
> 
> 
> I want a man to communicate and articulate his feelings instead of stonewalling. A couple should be able to have conversations and discussions on big and small matters. As far as compliments are concerned, I want a man to appreciate me the person and not just necessarily a new outfit. I don't expect compliments from anyone but I will nicely accept them.





EleGirl said:


> Actually it's very immature to cry over not getting compliments and/or someone not noticing your new mascara.
> 
> If the spouse *chronically* shows lack of appreciation, cannot complement, etc once in a while then why waste one tear or one word in complain?. The marriage is long gone at that point.
> 
> ...


I think you are missing the point of the example used entirely. It is about a way of minimising other people's feelings just because they are considered inappropriate. Given that some very helpful posts have featured on here giving some useful insight, I think for someone to simply say - "that's just immature, grow up" only makes matters worse. No?!


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## Kria (Aug 4, 2013)

iBolt said:


> 2, I understand your point about what is an ideal way of doing things but your initial response, in my view, seemed to mock the rather mature and thorough explanations that several men have tried to give with respect to OP. To simply say "Oh man up man and quit being childish. Use your words and grow up.." I think is not helpful


My initial post on this thread did not quote or refer to anyone in particular so I was not mocking anyone. With that being said there are some men that do act childish that need to just stop it because it is not working for them or for the betterment of their relationship.


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

argyle said:


> Two things...
> (a) He seems to have OCD and insomnia. He can't change this on his own. (or he would) He's also waking from sleep with a yell, which is just weird. You seem bothered by this, which is ok and normal but probably not too helpful. An awful lot of people (a) can't change their differences and (b) feel an awful lot of shame/denial already, so yelling doesn't help.
> 
> Here, you might want to brainstorm some options assuming he can't change. Even if he changes, it'll take years.
> ...


Thank you for these interesting insights. I think they are very useful:smthumbup:


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


???


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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

betulanana said:


> Thank you so much for so much advice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You come across as though you have the patience of the biblical Job. I commend you for this. 

1, Has your husband been for any kind of medical assessment/examination regarding these behaviour patterns?
2, Are you able to just let him do his thing when he wakes up at night?

I guess I am thinking more at what you can do to help yourself rather than what you can do to fix some of your husband's annoying behaviours.

I feel for you


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...one other thing...that won't really help...but...

...some men deal with aggression or the prospect of aggression by becoming expressionless or smiling constantly. This is a perfectly normal and reasonable way of dealing with life in general.* Particularly outside of the family.

...this drives some women absolutely insane. This is also perfectly normal and reasonable.**

How to deal with the problem, that's harder. I think it is couple-specific. And probably starts with acknowledging the problem and then figuring out things that can work better.

--Argyle
*Alternatives I've seen included cursing out our CEO->fired, cursing out our general manager->fired, threatening a coworker->fired (in last year of graduate program), beating a woman unconscious->woman charged with 'being obnoxious' (different country...) The problem is that aggressive behavior by men can involve serious consequences.

**Relationships, blah, feelings, blah. Never understood this part, but it happens. Best to acknowledge reality even if it seems crazy to me.


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## iBolt (Aug 28, 2012)

There's a 'Like' 'Share' button at the end of each post but you won't have them if posting from a cell/mobile phone (at least on my end I don't)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...I'm thinking that maybe you should stop at asking him why the behavior is happening and follow up later. The problem is that guessing at people's motivations is risky and doesn't have much payoff. (If you're right, and they know it...you've saved a second. If you're wrong or if they don't know the answer...you've started a fight.)

...after he tells you what he thinks is going on, you can both brainstorm solutions. 

Please be realistic. This behavior is likely to be difficult to change. I could tell my wife to 'stop being weird', but that's just hopeless. (Heck, I have. Yes, it is hopeless.) She has changed certain aspects of her behavior, but it took 3 years of therapy and several medications. We have found ways to work around most problems, and some I just endure. Ignoring stuff is hard. Changing your behavior to make problems smaller is also hard, but may also give you a feeling of power.

I would hope that he can stop yelling before he goes downstairs to clean. You might also try setting up a bedtime ritual where he cleans everything on his list. (Probably won't work, but it might.)

If you check up on your baby regularly, it may be that either (a) this is just one more awakening or (b) that this is only a two year problem that can be solved by wax later anyways.

I wonder if you are more bothered by the yelling or by having him leave the bed at 4 AM? We have some extremely huggable pillows and a few pets on our bed. (Wife often sleeps at 2 AM, I get lonely.)

Best wishes. 

--Argyle


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## RAN (Oct 14, 2012)

betulanana

Sorry to revisit the Sex portion on your life. I would like to ask you a few questions about the same, as your reply to some post was touch & go.

1) Do you Initiate or he does.

2) Do both of you (especially your H) have complete satisfaction.

My remembrance is that you have posted that he jumps up after sex does the cleaning works.

But when a male get complete satisfaction in sex he tends to sleep like a log(this is my experience) otherwise he is distracted of not having fulfillment & does other things known to him, for example your H polishing shoes etc etc. For me if I do not have the fulfillment in sex, I do not want to disturb my partner, but cannot sleep as the Urge will be there, therefore I go & watch TV. 

The fulfillment of sex for your H on the part of you will last & there would be no Pokerfaces & other activities at night. 

If not, if he has initiated sex & if you have rejected due to various reasons & if the same continues for a period of time, he tends to do to disturb you, because he will not want to mentally accept that he has lost & due to his frustration you will see the POKERFACE & all the activities he is doing.

Well if even if it is beyond this your H has to see a Doctor (Physiologist).


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@Bet
My wife has two clusters of issues and some cultural/family differences.
She is mildly autistic. So, she has trouble with empathy (like understanding that being hit hurts), and executive functioning (like not eating on the floor and leaving the dishes there), and social cues (like bathing, or not lecturing people with terminal illnesses on preventive medicine). And, extremely rigid communication patterns and difficulty accepting outside input.

And, she had/has (improved a lot) borderline personality disorder. So, issues like picking fights whenever she felt close to me, black and white thinking, impulsive behavior, general lack of identity, self-harm, projection (where she'd attribute her own issues to other people). Autism, btw, is perfectly livable and possible preferable in women as partners to some men. BPD is not. (DBT therapy is relatively effective for treatment.) And yes, she does have panic attacks sometimes.

The above was complicated by coming from different cultures. I'm a fairly standoffish typical American/Germanic guy from a family that argues several times per century. My wife's an aggressive Korean woman, from a family that has few stops. They are mostly not abusive and controlling - but - when they argue - they fight physically. I think the women usually throw the first punches, but the men usually throw the last.

So, there was a certain amount of difficulty. (Okay, a lot - but it'd fill a book.) We tried a lot of things. My wife went into therapy and stuck to it. I eventually decided that helping her with social issues wasn't too codependent and probably necessary. For the violence, we eventually agreed that, living in the US, our children should see a model that didn't involve ending arguments with punches. 

Babies are hard. It can be wise to schedule things and arrange for a separate comfortable area for that sort of stuff. Or, babysitters.

--Argyle


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

It is hard.
She understands that she's different, but appearing normal is hard for her. She spent a long time blaming me for not forcing her to be normal. I spent a lot of time resisting this, as making someone else responsible for your behavior isn't healthy. But, eh, it eventually became clear that there're some things she just can't do reliably. So, I give little reminders (eye contact, phew, okay, cleanup time) and resign myself to accepting that my spouse has a few weaknesses.

--Argyle


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## betulanana (Jul 20, 2013)

Does it work out for you? Would you say your are happy with this?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

Of course not.

But, marriage is a commitment. Not a miraculous path to happiness. And love is a choice. Like, not so much. But, it is perfectly possible to love someone who you might not like in a given moment.

Our marriage isn't ideal. But, I'm capable of being fairly annoying too. And, with work, it will, and has, improved over time. And there are bonuses - she's very honest and pragmatic and she'll always try to do the right thing, within the boundaries of her understanding and empathy. 

Besides, happiness is mostly an individual thing. Excepting the screaming fits and beatings, most of my unhappinesses are individual. And those, we've been able to correct.

--Argyle


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