# Reconcilliation Without Intimacy?



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Some background:

DDay = Jan 26 2012

Married 9 years, together off and on for 16. No children at home.

Actually I think that must have been when all this started, when D19 moved out and started college. I had been taking care of my Mom after her surgery, came home and the main PC was crashed. The following Monday I restored the OS and found some fragments of his visits to a live mutual masturbation/hookup site. My heart sank. I confronted him (I know now, too early). I left in tears to go out to drink alone. Then next day he had destroyed the hard drive and all I know is what I saw that day.

He lied, gaslighted, blameshifted and whole shebang for a few weeks, then I had papers put on the table in front of him. Everything changed. We have been in R and trying very hard to piece our marriage back together, but it has been especially hard to discuss sex. Before, we would talk about it all on Sundays, but I would end up crying, shaking and very sad and wanting to withdraw every time the subject came to sex. 

We decided to separate the nights into MC on Sundays (communication, finances, household, etc.) and sex night on Weds. Sundays have been wonderful! We have really tackled the things that were stagnant and not working pre-infidelity. But Wednesdays are still hard for me. I get high anxiety and don't know if I can overcome the past.

Knowing that he waited for me to fall asleep or leave the house so he could have cybersex/meet women/who knows has broken my heart completely in two. I had a checkup for STD's after the destroyed hard drive. Everything. It all came back clean. So I am starting to believe that it may not have bled into "real life". 

I have no idea how/if we will ever be able to be fully together again. We have separate rooms now and have restored our friendship but not our intimacy. I am afraid if this continues, we will just be setting the stage for him to seek outside the marriage again.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Do you think your reservations stem from a lingering doubt that it didn't cross into physical cheating, a issues with his known betrayal, or both?

As someone who had an online affair I can tell you that "virtual" boundaries and real life boundaries can be very different - they shouldn't be but it's easy to do. It's a major part of how I ended up in an EA. It's so easy to think of anything on a computer as a video game - and video games have no consequences right??

If it's that latter, well recovery comes in it's own time but yes intimacy is a large part of it IMO. Intimacy is easy to build a wall around and the wall can become a self fulfilling prophecy. You may have to make a decision - a concerted effort - to jump into intimacy even though you may not be totally comfortable and see if the wall will come down a little. It's a chicken or egg problem, you can't be intimate until you reconnect, it's much much easier to reconnect if you can be intimate.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Do you think your reservations stem from a lingering doubt that it didn't cross into physical cheating, a issues with his known betrayal, or both?


Thanks sigma. Both.

I think it was an extreme reaction, breaking the hard drive. I know he felt whatever was on it---was divorce worthy. It could have been a real life meeting, an explicit sexual act or something he is afraid I won't accept him for or ?????

Also the second one, that the known betrayals are worth separating over, and I still can't begin to accept them. The total disregard for me as his partner, the total disrespect of our vow of fidelity.

In general, the feeling I can't shake is that he did not/does not have my best interest at heart.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I think you may be at or near the point why everyone agrees reconciliation is so hard for betrayed spouses. At some point a leap of faith by you will be required to successfully reconcile. A leap into the arms of someone who has already dropped you once. A very hard thing to do for sure, but there is no way to avoid it. It's a must and it's something only you, as the betrayed spouse can do. He can, should, and must do everything in his power to make you feel as comfortable about taking that leap that he can, to reassure you that he will not drop you a second time. But, even if he does everything that everyone here would tell him he must do, when it comes down to it - it will still require a leap by you. 

I can't tell you if he's done everything he should or not. I can't tell you if now is the right time to take that leap or not, or even if taking it all is the right thing. Only you can answer those questions. Just understand that at some point, you will have to make that leap if you want a truly successful reconciliation.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I think you may be at or near the point why everyone agrees reconciliation is so hard for betrayed spouses. At some point a leap of faith by you will be required to successfully reconcile. A leap into the arms of someone who has already dropped you once. A very hard thing to do for sure, but there is no way to avoid it. It's a must and it's something only you, as the betrayed spouse can do. He can, should, and must do everything in his power to make you feel as comfortable about taking that leap that he can, to reassure you that he will not drop you a second time. But, even if he does everything that everyone here would tell him he must do, when it comes down to it - it will still require a leap by you.
> 
> I can't tell you if he's done everything he should or not. I can't tell you if now is the right time to take that leap or not, or even if taking it all is the right thing. Only you can answer those questions. Just understand that at some point, you will have to make that leap if you want a truly successful reconciliation.


Wow. This gave me a deep and profound welling up of tears.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I'm sorry LWC - remember I'm just one anonymous guy on the internet - and a former cheater at that. I could be way off base. There are lots of other opinions, experiences and perspectives here - hopefully they will voice their opinions and they will be more helpful.

A leap of faith by the BS is part of it IMO, but if you're not ready to take that leap then you're just not ready and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. As I said, recovery, your recovery will come at it's own pace. 

Sorry I upset you - (((hugs)))


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> I'm sorry LWC - remember I'm just one anonymous guy on the internet - and a former cheater at that. I could be way off base. There are lots of other opinions, experiences and perspectives here - hopefully they will voice their opinions and they will be more helpful.
> 
> A leap of faith by the BS is part of it IMO, but if you're not ready to take that leap then you're just not ready and there's not a thing in the world wrong with that. As I said, recovery, your recovery will come at it's own pace.
> 
> Sorry I upset you - (((hugs)))


No worries, sigma. The tears are good. I realize that it is one opinion. I also realize that I like honesty. A lot. And you know my story. I do think you are right on both counts, however. 

1. That I will need to take that leap someday. And 2. That I am so afraid of it that I am nowhere near ready.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> No worries, sigma. The tears are good. I realize that it is one opinion. I also realize that I like honesty. A lot. And you know my story. I do think you are right on both counts, however.
> 
> 1. That I will need to take that leap someday. And 2. That I am so afraid of it that I am nowhere near ready.


Hi LWC. first, Im so sorry youre here. Second, you can and will get thru this.

So do you mind if I ask some questions?

1)Is this his FIRST known betrayal?

2) What is HE saying/doing at this point.


CTU


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Hi LWC. first, Im so sorry youre here. Second, you can and will get thru this.
> 
> So do you mind if I ask some questions?
> 
> ...


Thanks CTU.

1) First known betrayal since marriage. First betrayal resulted in us splitting up for 3 years. This was 12 years ago.

2) He is really working on R now. Taking the lead, being accountable, opening up, solving long-term problems we have had with finances, supporting a healthier diet I have also long tried to implement, and lots of other good stuff.

He is also very patient which is something he NEVER had before. And has showed true remorse that has been solid for a while now. We talked about pornography for the first time, which I thought would never happen. We go for walks together (which I used to do alone). We have become great friends again.

The only thing that is off in our relationship is our intimate marriage. It died.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Thanks sigma. Both.
> 
> I think it was an extreme reaction, breaking the hard drive. I know he felt whatever was on it---was divorce worthy. It could have been a real life meeting, an explicit sexual act or something he is afraid I won't accept him for or ?????
> 
> ...


Lwc, I just wanted to address the 'feeling that he doesnt have your best interest at heart'. Thats a legitimate feeling. Afterall, when people cheat-they arent thinking of their spouses, their children, their job. The ONLY thing that is important is their 'fix'. SO, it is legitimate for this to concern you and for you to be cautious. 

BUT-if he is showing all the signs of remorse and doing the hard work it takes to R with you then at some point you have to move forward some. Dont do anything you dont feel is 'right' but doing something that is 'uncomfortable' is gonna have to take a leap of faith. I can think of two such points since dday for us. The first was my decision to be physical with him. Let me tell you the first few times were terrible for me. The whole thing was a trigger. But then slowly it only popped in and out of my head during and now it still happens but not often. The second was saying "I love you". I was really uncomfortable here. I felt too vulnerable, like I was letting him off the hook a bit too. But I had a friend explain the difference in not doing/saying something b/c it was 'uncomfortable' vs. because it didnt feel 'right'. For example-There has never been a minute of doubt that I love him to my core so naturally it was 'right' to tell him but it was 'uncomfortable' b/c I didnt trust him. B/c I was guarding myself from further pain. SSOOO, after having it explained(rightfully and clearly) I took the leap of faith and told him-he nearly melted right there. I hadnt said it in months. So it was a step. Just one step. Just like having sex with him again. A step. Just one. Hard but worth it. So if you cant start with sex how about holding hands or just sleeping together and letting him hold you?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

he kisses me when he leaves for work & comes home
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

we have not slept in the same bed since dday
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

One way to find out what he hid by smashing the computer is for you to ask him for his accounts and passwords. Tell him point blank. I need it to move on. Not sure if this is what you want, I would. I would imagine he might still remember those accounts. I would also suspect that he had a secret email account. You need an email account typically to open those types of online accounts.

Maybe you don't want to go there. 

For me it is better getting all the pus and junk out of the wound before the healing can begin. Again that is how I am.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I would also try sleeping with him. These things are hard to get over and the mind games are hardest. If he is being transparent and if you want this to work out take back the bed and start cuddling. If you are not ready, how long can you do this to yourself?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> we have not slept in the same bed since dday
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand. What I was trying to suggest is a small step TOWARD him.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> One way to find out what he hid by smashing the computer is for you to ask him for his accounts and passwords. Tell him point blank. I need it to move on. Not sure if this is what you want, I would. I would imagine he might still remember those accounts. I would also suspect that he had a secret email account. You need an email account typically to open those types of online accounts.
> 
> Maybe you don't want to go there.
> 
> For me it is better getting all the pus and junk out of the wound before the healing can begin. Again that is how I am.


This is all very enlightening for me, just replying to these posts. I realize I am deathly afraid of asking him for this Thor, because I am also sure that he had/has secret accounts. I don't know if he would be ready to come clean about them all. And that speaks volumes in itself I know.

But we have made such strides to this point, I honestly think it might be too soon to ask this, if that is possible. Because I wouldn't be able to hear it without going backwards....I know this doesn't sound right.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> I would also try sleeping with him. These things are hard to get over and the mind games are hardest. If he is being transparent and if you want this to work out take back the bed and start cuddling. If you are not ready, how long can you do this to yourself?


I have tried sleeping in the big bedroom, but I can't. I well up, tense up and have to get back up. I can only sleep in the library with the door closed.

I know its crazy. Its the only time I can relax completely.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Lwc, I just wanted to address the 'feeling that he doesnt have your best interest at heart'. Thats a legitimate feeling. Afterall, when people cheat-they arent thinking of their spouses, their children, their job. The ONLY thing that is important is their 'fix'. SO, it is legitimate for this to concern you and for you to be cautious.
> 
> BUT-if he is showing all the signs of remorse and doing the hard work it takes to R with you then at some point you have to move forward some. Dont do anything you dont feel is 'right' but doing something that is 'uncomfortable' is gonna have to take a leap of faith. I can think of two such points since dday for us. The first was my decision to be physical with him. Let me tell you the first few times were terrible for me. The whole thing was a trigger. But then slowly it only popped in and out of my head during and now it still happens but not often. The second was saying "I love you". I was really uncomfortable here. I felt too vulnerable, like I was letting him off the hook a bit too. But I had a friend explain the difference in not doing/saying something b/c it was 'uncomfortable' vs. because it didnt feel 'right'. For example-There has never been a minute of doubt that I love him to my core so naturally it was 'right' to tell him but it was 'uncomfortable' b/c I didnt trust him. B/c I was guarding myself from further pain. SSOOO, after having it explained(rightfully and clearly) I took the leap of faith and told him-he nearly melted right there. I hadnt said it in months. So it was a step. Just one step. Just like having sex with him again. A step. Just one. Hard but worth it. So if you cant start with sex how about holding hands or just sleeping together and letting him hold you?


I don't know how you did this. Especially with the triggering. Its like going back to the front lines when you have been battle fatigued. I have read some stories on TAM with military saying it was tougher to go through the betrayal than even their deployments.

I finally understand this.

You are so brave and I hope your WH appreciates what you have done for him. I hope he realizes your gift.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> One way to find out what he hid by smashing the computer is for you to ask him for his accounts and passwords. Tell him point blank. I need it to move on. Not sure if this is what you want, I would. I would imagine he might still remember those accounts. I would also suspect that he had a secret email account. You need an email account typically to open those types of online accounts.
> 
> Maybe you don't want to go there.
> 
> For me it is better getting all the pus and junk out of the wound before the healing can begin. Again that is how I am.


This.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> This is all very enlightening for me, just replying to these posts. I realize I am deathly afraid of asking him for this Thor, because I am also sure that he had/has secret accounts. I don't know if he would be ready to come clean about them all. And that speaks volumes in itself I know.
> 
> But we have made such strides to this point, I honestly think it might be too soon to ask this, if that is possible. Because I wouldn't be able to hear it without going backwards....I know this doesn't sound right.


But are you REALLY making strides? You dont know the truth. He hasnt come clean. Its like having an affair and not saying if it was physical or who it was with. I dont mean to be too direct here but I dont know how you can move forward with only half the information. Clearly whatever was on this computer-he deems it unforgiveable.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> But are you REALLY making strides? You dont know the truth. He hasnt come clean. Its like having an affair and not saying if it was physical or who it was with. I dont mean to be too direct here but I dont know how you can move forward with only half the information. Clearly whatever was on this computer-he deems it unforgiveable.


Yes, it was an extreme reaction. And its the one thing I can't get over. I really think he feels that if I saw all the cybering I would leave. That's my gut feeling.

Now that he's admitted that it was wrong, he doesn't want to go into the details. Now that he sees how far he was into it, that he had fooled himself and classified it as "porn" to justify it. Now ...he is so wracked with shame and guilt....it's really heartbreaking to see. He is deathly afraid to discuss it.

I do think we are making strides in other areas of our marriage. But we cannot get the last part fixed til we deal with this.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Transparency - there's a reason it's one of the tenants of reconciliation. You can't reconcile if what you are reconciling from isn't out in the open for all of the parties to know and discuss.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Transparency - there's a reason it's one of the tenants of reconciliation. You can't reconcile if what you are reconciling from isn't out in the open for all of the parties to know and discuss.


How can there ever be total transparency for me? Sure I have all the passwords and emails and phone, but what I WANT is what was on that hard drive.

He took that chance away forever.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Actually, I stand corrected.

I took that chance away from myself, by confronting too early.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> How can there ever be total transparency for me? Sure I have all the passwords and emails and phone, but what I WANT is what was on that hard drive.
> 
> He took that chance away forever.


Sig, you were one of the first people to give me advice when I came to TAM. You said there wasn't much I could do (because he destroyed all the evidence) but wait for him to re-offend. I am feeling that now, bigtime.

I am sure he feels that he dodged a bullet this time. Maybe all this has woken him up. 

The nagging problem for me, is that the nuked hard drive IS the smoking gun. Its the thing that sealed the betrayal for me. Made it gravely serious.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

While I understand his reticence to discuss - his being willing to discuss it would be great start towards transparency. 



LostWifeCrushed said:


> He is deathly afraid to discuss it.


IMO a large part of the reason you're still having an issue is because he's still keeping a secret. He destroyed the hard drive and now won't talk about it in specifics - translated - you still don't know what was on it. Granted, he could make up stuff to tell you and you MIGHT never know he was lying. However, odds are that if he was willing to talk about it and he was lying you'd figure it out - the details would change somewhere and you'd piece inconsistencies together. Again - this is why transparency and being willing to talk about it are so important for the BS. 

For you - transparency is him telling you and then talking about what was on that hard drive. Talking about it willingly and openly enough that you can flesh out any inconsistencies or get comfortable that they are not there. This is the price he has to pay for destroying the evidence - he has to talk about it ad nauseum until you get convinced you've got the truth. If he hadn't destroyed it he wouldn't have to talk about it - as much. 

Here's my take on the current situation - this may hurt a bit...

I think your H likely does really want to reconcile but is unwilling to pay the final price of total honesty. I think he believes that if he gives you all of the truth that you will leave. The thing is no one knows if you will or not because he's the only one who knows the whole truth. I think he is trying to do everything possible to reconcile - EXCEPT - give you the whole truth. Hoping that in doing so you will see everything else as so good that you don't want to mess it up by making a stand on having to have the full truth from him. He's hoping that everything else will be good enough that you'll sweep this last remaining issue under the rug. I think this is why you are back here. He is doing everything right except what IMO is the most important thing and you're gut is fighting the urge to sweep this under the rug. 

How you get him to finally tell you - I really don't know. Counseling maybe? Just talking and trying to draw him out? And then there's the relationship dynamic - on one end promising him that you won't leave no matter what it is, on the other end telling him you are leaving if he doesn't tell you. That has more to do with you, what you are willing to do and accept, and what you think will be most effective in getting the truth.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'll be blunt, LWC. Here's how there can be transparency: by him looking his own fears straight in the eye and telling you what he did. It really is heartrendingly awful to look your partner in the eye and tell them what you did, and as a disloyal person you rarely if ever remember it with quite the detail that your loyal spouse wants to know. But he does know what he did. I know and I've spoken about it out loud here on TAM to my everlasting regret and shame. But that being "discreet" or halfway covering it up does not make what I did any less true. 

Here's my thought though--it sounds like both of you had some work to do on your own "side of the street" so to speak. And it sounds like you both are doing the cleaning, which is a very good thing. If you two are going to a counselor and it's beneficial , I'd suggest that you two continue to do so and reach an agreement with the counselor as sort of a "referee." It seems that you are wrestling with considering restarting the physical part of your relationship--it scares you to death but you want to face it. At the same time he is probably wrestling with considering when and how to tell you the whole truth. My guess is that he's afraid that if you were this far set back by seeing just what you saw, that you'll flip out when you know the whole truth--but he doesn't realize that it's the lack of KNOWING that is the horror for you. If you found out the worst possible scenario...let's say that he had indeed gone to meet up with someone live and in person and had sex with a complete stranger....why then it would be a little like D-day again and yet a little bit of a relief because now you know what you're dealing with. 

Sooo...in a weird way let the counselor "referee" the wrestling. Make that a safe place to face your fears with each other and address them and the counselor can make sure it doesn't get "out of hand" and help the person addressing to feel a little safer and the person being addressed feel like help is near if needed. The fact is that one day, for you two to really have a foundation on which to build, he's going to have to tell you what he did--in order for you to be able to make an informed decision to be with him, you need to be informed!! Likewise the fact is that one day, for you two to really have a foundation on which to build, you're going to have to sleep in the same bed together. 

On that regard, one thing that may help is doing a few symbolic things to change the big room. Buy a new bed--a brand new headframe and mattress so that it represents your NEW marriage. Paint the room a color that is completely different (like maroon with gold trim ) so that the room seems and feels like a different room. I opened all the window and got a certain kind of incense I like and I "smoked out all the old memories" so the room was just cleared. See what I mean? Redecorate, remove all the furniture and bleach everything...whatever you do that means "This room is CHANGED now and a wholly new room." Or alternately, put an actual bed in your room (the library you said, right) and turn it into a bedroom and make the big room the library/office/guest room. Change 'em around. There's no rule about which room has to be a bedroom and which could be the library. Shoot, make the big room into the family room! LOL There's also no rule about you going to his room--invite him to yours. Maybe you'd feel safer if you were on your "turf" and the two of you started some cuddly stuff in your space.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> While I understand his reticence to discuss - his being willing to discuss it would be great start towards transparency.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sigma, you have described my dilemma perfectly. 

The most forthcoming moment was when we were sitting together having a weekly meeting. It had gotten dark after dinner, only the candles were still going. I very quietly said, "I got the last of my test results back today (STD panel). Everything was negative. The hard drive.....your reaction was so extreme.....I didn't know what else to do or think....." BIG FAT TEARS FALLING

The gravity of the situation hit us both and he got out of his chair and held me there in the darkness, "I love you so much. I am so sorry I hurt you."

This is the deepest moment of remorse I have seen or felt from him. If the truth ever comes, it will come in a moment like this one. Where there is no judgement or demands. Where we are just honest and quiet with each other. I don't think it will ever come in counseling.

Maybe we just need more time.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I'll be blunt, LWC. Here's how there can be transparency: by him looking his own fears straight in the eye and telling you what he did. It really is heartrendingly awful to look your partner in the eye and tell them what you did, and as a disloyal person you rarely if ever remember it with quite the detail that your loyal spouse wants to know. But he does know what he did. I know and I've spoken about it out loud here on TAM to my everlasting regret and shame. But that being "discreet" or halfway covering it up does not make what I did any less true.
> 
> Here's my thought though--it sounds like both of you had some work to do on your own "side of the street" so to speak. And it sounds like you both are doing the cleaning, which is a very good thing. If you two are going to a counselor and it's beneficial , I'd suggest that you two continue to do so and reach an agreement with the counselor as sort of a "referee." It seems that you are wrestling with considering restarting the physical part of your relationship--it scares you to death but you want to face it. At the same time he is probably wrestling with considering when and how to tell you the whole truth. My guess is that he's afraid that if you were this far set back by seeing just what you saw, that you'll flip out when you know the whole truth--but he doesn't realize that it's the lack of KNOWING that is the horror for you. If you found out the worst possible scenario...let's say that he had indeed gone to meet up with someone live and in person and had sex with a complete stranger....why then it would be a little like D-day again and yet a little bit of a relief because now you know what you're dealing with.
> 
> ...


AC your suggestions are always so tactile and real. I have actually been thinking of changing rooms and painting. H has said this would be a great thing for us to do also.

Its funny, H was walking to the market the other day and on the side of the road there was a bunch of studio furniture- with a sign that said FREE. He called to tell me and we heefed it home. These are the last pieces I needed to finish my music room downstairs with a recording booth. I have wanted to finish that room since we moved into this house (6 years ago).

I guess its time for some spring cleaning!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Sig, you were one of the first people to give me advice when I came to TAM. You said there wasn't much I could do (because he destroyed all the evidence) but wait for him to re-offend. I am feeling that now, bigtime.
> 
> I am sure he feels that he dodged a bullet this time. Maybe all this has woken him up.
> 
> The nagging problem for me, is that the nuked hard drive IS the smoking gun. Its the thing that sealed the betrayal for me. Made it gravely serious.


Well this isnt TOTALLY true. Thor had a suggestion for how to find out what was on there. But you said you didnt know if you were ready to do that. SO- you are kind of at a point where you have to decide if you are going to push for the truth OR accept what you know for now. BUT- you cant have it both ways. You either want to know or you dont. I understand your fear-believe me , I do. I had the same issue myself when considering rather or not to continue reading emails between my H and OW. Did I WANT all of it? This is where you are. Have you tried putting his name into spokeo and seeing if alternate email addresses pop up?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Well this isnt TOTALLY true. Thor had a suggestion for how to find out what was on there. But you said you didnt know if you were ready to do that. SO- you are kind of at a point where you have to decide if you are going to push for the truth OR accept what you know for now. BUT- you cant have it both ways. You either want to know or you dont. I understand your fear-believe me , I do. I had the same issue myself when considering rather or not to continue reading emails between my H and OW. Did I WANT all of it? This is where you are. Have you tried putting his name into spokeo and seeing if alternate email addresses pop up?


CTU, I know you are right.

I was there for a moment, where you talk about being, when you had to decide to keep reading your H and OW emails..... I was there when I first found the sessions, the dates, the URLs, I thought, "oh great, porn movies" then I saw the reality. Not porn at all. My heart sank at that moment. He was at work, I was home alone. It was the absolute worst day of our marriage. I sent him a text that said YOU SHOULD HAVE JUST LEFT ME

I almost feel like I had the moment to know it all, and I let it go because it was so incredibly painful. And now its why I am stuck.

So......did you keep reading?


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> CTU, I know you are right.
> 
> I was there for a moment, where you talk about being, when you had to decide to keep reading your H and OW emails..... I was there when I first found the sessions, the dates, the URLs, I thought, "oh great, porn movies" then I saw the reality. Not porn at all. My heart sank at that moment. He was at work, I was home alone. It was the absolute worst day of our marriage. I sent him a text that said YOU SHOULD HAVE JUST LEFT ME
> 
> ...


I know that heart sinking feeling. My H was also at work and I could watch it in real time. So that meant it was happening quite often at that very moment-that was so hard to deal with. But then I printed everything in his archive and hers -Just shoot me. I did read enough to know what was going on then I stopped reading what was in the archives for a long time. But then I decided that if we were going to R I had to know everything I could. I had to do all I could to rule out the possibility that it had become a PA. He swore it had not. All other 'sources' I had said they didnt think so but I later forced myself to read every last one of them. There were hundreds and hundreds- possibly a thousand. And recorded personal conversations between them in her office. Yeah, I went there. I have a friend that works on a different floor. She was alot of help. She knew alot of the girls in that immediate group-it was very helpful yet agonizing. So i read the every last one. It was the most painful thing I've ever done but I knew I couldnt stay if I didnt. Now I am here with a really good grasp on the relationship between them. I am comfortable taht it was not physical. There was nothing worse than listening to the two of them yuckin' it up. Her voice made me want to just punch him. 

It was awful. I still have nightmares about it. But I dont think I could be here had I not read them. It also helped me to ask some questions and know if he was being honest or not. 98% he was and I think the rest is possible he just didnt remember. It was minutia. And once or twice I think he was just trying to spare me by telling the truth but mincing the words a bit. 

My suggestion is ask him for the email and passwords to the accounts. Use spokeo and his name and phone number-see what pops up.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I know that heart sinking feeling. My H was also at work and I could watch it in real time. So that meant it was happening quite often at that very moment-that was so hard to deal with. But then I printed everything in his archive and hers -Just shoot me. I did read enough to know what was going on then I stopped reading what was in the archives for a long time. But then I decided that if we were going to R I had to know everything I could. I had to do all I could to rule out the possibility that it had become a PA. He swore it had not. All other 'sources' I had said they didnt think so but I later forced myself to read every last one of them. There were hundreds and hundreds- possibly a thousand. And recorded personal conversations between them in her office. Yeah, I went there. I have a friend that works on a different floor. She was alot of help. She knew alot of the girls in that immediate group-it was very helpful yet agonizing. So i read the every last one. It was the most painful thing I've ever done but I knew I couldnt stay if I didnt. Now I am here with a really good grasp on the relationship between them. I am comfortable taht it was not physical. There was nothing worse than listening to the two of them yuckin' it up. Her voice made me want to just punch him.
> 
> It was awful. I still have nightmares about it. But I dont think I could be here had I not read them. It also helped me to ask some questions and know if he was being honest or not. 98% he was and I think the rest is possible he just didnt remember. It was minutia. And once or twice I think he was just trying to spare me by telling the truth but mincing the words a bit.
> 
> My suggestion is ask him for the email and passwords to the accounts. Use spokeo and his name and phone number-see what pops up.


OMG, your story just tugs at my heart. I have been through so much pain, I guess I am just avoiding it, hoping that it goes away, but it just gets worse.

I will find the courage to ask for those things.

Somewhere.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> OMG, your story just tugs at my heart. I have been through so much pain, I guess I am just avoiding it, hoping that it goes away, but it just gets worse.
> 
> I will find the courage to ask for those things.
> 
> Somewhere.


Just a question here-have you spent any time alone with this? Time when you werent dealing with him or work? Time when you could sit and think this thru. The good the bad and the ugly. Time to sit and talk yourself thru this. I have said this before but I'll say it again b/c I dont mind telling some of my dark moments. I literally had about 3 weeks where I would get up at night and lay in the bathroom floor in the most uncomfortable position I could find. One that literally caused physical pain and the floor was cold but the physical discomfort took away, if only for a time, the emotional pain. Then I would get more comfortable and let my head think and my heart bleed in private. I did my best to keep alot of my emotion from him initially. As uncomfortable and miserable as it was, it was some of the most productive time I had. I used to do the same thing as a kid so it was kind of like 'going home' to me. It was the time I had to talk myself thru it. Some of it I had my head in the toilet too. 

But after about 3 weeks of very little sleep I was sitting in there around 3 am and it came to me. I can either do THIS forever OR I can get the guts to read those emails and make a decision. I read them for the next 3 days. And here I am.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Just a question here-have you spent any time alone with this? Time when you werent dealing with him or work? Time when you could sit and think this thru. The good the bad and the ugly. Time to sit and talk yourself thru this. I have said this before but I'll say it again b/c I dont mind telling some of my dark moments. I literally had about 3 weeks where I would get up at night and lay in the bathroom floor in the most uncomfortable position I could find. One that literally caused physical pain and the floor was cold but the physical discomfort took away, if only for a time, the emotional pain. Then I would get more comfortable and let my head think and my heart bleed in private. I did my best to keep alot of my emotion from him initially. As uncomfortable and miserable as it was, it was some of the most productive time I had. I used to do the same thing as a kid so it was kind of like 'going home' to me. It was the time I had to talk myself thru it. Some of it I had my head in the toilet too.
> 
> But after about 3 weeks of very little sleep I was sitting in there around 3 am and it came to me. I can either do THIS forever OR I can get the guts to read those emails and make a decision. I read them for the next 3 days. And here I am.


I'm not sure if I have had time to myself really......since this happened, the farthest away I have been is the library in our house. I wish I could have some time, actually. I wish I had something to read that he wrote to these other women. At least I wouldn't be fighting blind. I really feel like I am swinging punches in the dark sometimes.

Last night we talked and it turned bad when I brought up the busted hard drive. He said (again) that he knew is was a mistake to be there and he didn't want that cancer in the house. He was ashamed and wanted it gone. He sees it as an act of love. A permanent no contact of sorts. He swears up and down that I know everything there is to know.

I agree with sigma's last post, I think this is EXACTLY what is happening.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I'm not sure if I have had time to myself really......since this happened, the farthest away I have been is the library in our house. I wish I could have some time, actually. I wish I had something to read that he wrote to these other women. At least I wouldn't be fighting blind. I really feel like I am swinging punches in the dark sometimes.
> 
> Last night we talked and it turned bad when I brought up the busted hard drive. He said (again) that he knew is was a mistake to be there and he didn't want that cancer in the house. He was ashamed and wanted it gone. He sees it as an act of love. A permanent no contact of sorts. He swears up and down that I know everything there is to know.
> 
> I agree with sigma's last post, I think this is EXACTLY what is happening.


I understand what you mean about fighting blind but trust me when I tell you KNOWING/SEEING has its own level of hell. It takes away all deniability for the BS. But I do understand what you mean, at least you would know that particular 'brand' of evil that you are dealing with. I get that.

Sig, is a smart guy and likely knows what he's talking about. 

So I am again left with the question for you- are you ok with taking his word for it? Its ok if you are but you have to decide on that then and move forward. IF you arent ok with not knowing then you must push to find the truth if you dont think you have it AnD again, you have to decide and then push forward in that direction. LIMBO IS HELL. I think you have decided to go forward not knowing. I think this because there have been some suggestions made about how to find alternate email addresses/web sites. You havent done that. THATS perfectly ok BUT you have to make a choice then to move forward. Slowly and deliberately but forward just the same. I know its tough advice and I dont give it without understanding the ramifications of following it. I've been where you are. I feel for you so much. The agony inside you is almost debilitating right? I am not overstating it when I say I could literally feel my bones hurt. I didnt even recognize myself. It sounds like youre getting close to that. 

Is there any way you can some time to yourself? Even if you just take half a day off work and go home. It might do you a world of good to be able to sit with your thoughts. To feel them full force. Then to decide how to proceed.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I understand what you mean about fighting blind but trust me when I tell you KNOWING/SEEING has its own level of hell. It takes away all deniability for the BS. But I do understand what you mean, at least you would know that particular 'brand' of evil that you are dealing with. I get that.
> 
> Sig, is a smart guy and likely knows what he's talking about.
> 
> ...


Thanks, CTU. By the way, I work at home so I do have time alone during the day, to a small degree. It has been hard to deal with, though... in the beginning, i was having panic attacks at 5 every night an hour before he came home from work. I was on meds for a while for it, but then got off them---i didn't want to be on pills. It is time alone, I guess, but it doesn't feel like it at all. A long weekend at the beach, well, now you're talkin'!!

No, I am NOT OK with taking his word for it. I haven't taken Thor's advice because I know he would only give me the accounts I already have. Listen, we BOTH have been transparent during our marriage. I use his FB page to talk to my friends, I use his paypal to order stuff online, etc. He has my email and I have his emails---AND THIS STILL HAPPENNED. So, maybe you can see why I don't feel like asking him for a list. I am pretty sure he had/has at least one secret account....as a matter of fact, I feel he was overly transparent, looking back.....he would leave all his accounts open at night, email, paypal, ebay, FB....and go to bed. I think it served 2 purposes= 1) feigned transparency? 2) knowing if I was on that PC

I also think he may have destroyed the hard drive because I am a computer whiz. The only reason I didn't find out sooner is because I trusted him. I found the fragments of deleted sessions he had while restoring the PC. I found session cookies that had time stamps and knew he was muting the cam audio late at night when I was asleep. When I confronted I told him he could come clean or I would reverse delete the whole PC. We fought that night and I left the house. The next crack I had at it? The next day. It was on his desk, exactly as before, except the hard drive was taken out.

I want to believe him, but no, I am not taking his word at face value. Trust, but verify, right? The biggest relief I have had was getting my STD tests back negative. It went a long way toward believing his words.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Thanks, CTU. By the way, I work at home so I do have time alone during the day, to a small degree. It has been hard to deal with, though... in the beginning, i was having panic attacks at 5 every night an hour before he came home from work. I was on meds for a while for it, but then got off them---i didn't want to be on pills. It is time alone, I guess, but it doesn't feel like it at all. A long weekend at the beach, well, now you're talkin'!!
> 
> No, I am NOT OK with taking his word for it. I haven't taken Thor's advice because I know he would only give me the accounts I already have. Listen, we BOTH have been transparent during our marriage. I use his FB page to talk to my friends, I use his paypal to order stuff online, etc. He has my email and I have his emails---AND THIS STILL HAPPENNED. So, maybe you can see why I don't feel like asking him for a list. I am pretty sure he had/has at least one secret account....as a matter of fact, I feel he was overly transparent, looking back.....he would leave all his accounts open at night, email, paypal, ebay, FB....and go to bed. I think it served 2 purposes= 1) feigned transparency? 2) knowing if I was on that PC
> 
> ...


I know what you mean about maybe too much transparency. Or at least appearing to be overt on the computer. He was way way too in your face with "look, this is what I was doing so no need to look further" right? Thats what you mean? It does help me to understand why youre not asking for more info. Because you know he will give you what you already know.Nothing more. So do you have a computer now? Keylogger?

A weekend at a beachhouse!!!!WHA-BAM! Now that sounds like heaven. 

Trust but verify is my policy, yes. I do less verifying but I do verify at random. Any BS that says differently, I think may be being untruthful and or naive. 

Negative std test is a good sign. So what are you doing to verify the things he tells you now?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I know what you mean about maybe too much transparency. Or at least appearing to be overt on the computer. He was way way too in your face with "look, this is what I was doing so no need to look further" right? Thats what you mean? It does help me to understand why youre not asking for more info. Because you know he will give you what you already know.Nothing more. So do you have a computer now? Keylogger?


We have several computers. The one he uses is in the main room, he just hooked up another one a couple weeks after dday. I trigger every time I see him on it. We have been in each others accounts for years. We also have servers/domains that I configure/administer. He has an online business that I coded for him. When the email from that site wasn't working, I tested, repaired and installed a new one. 

Years ago, his motherboard fried and I took his hard drive and chained it in another tower and reset the permissions on his files so he wouldn't lose all his data. I really feel like a fool that he was able to pull the wool over my eyes. I trusted him completely and NEVER checked up on him. I guess I should have. 



canttrustu said:


> A weekend at a beachhouse!!!!WHA-BAM! Now that sounds like heaven.


Where do you live? Maybe we should make a break for it!!!!!



canttrustu said:


> Trust but verify is my policy, yes. I do less verifying but I do verify at random. Any BS that says differently, I think may be being untruthful and or naive.
> 
> Negative std test is a good sign. So what are you doing to verify the things he tells you now?


He tells me nothing now. He has given me the Official Story and I am still working on verifying that. We don't talk about this problem. On Weds. we have been talking about sex, generally. MC day is all about communication, fighting fair, finances, EVERYTHING but sex.

We have only recently been able to discuss this (mostly due to me not being able to) and I am afraid the talks are breaking down now---Him thinking we have dealt with it, that everything to be told has been told. Me, hesitant, very. 

I really wish this was over and we were really repairing the intimate part of our life. To me, being able to talk and share anything is the relationship we used to have. We were best friends. We talked a million times a day when we were apart. I miss him. I truly miss him and we live under the same roof.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> We have several computers. The one he uses is in the main room, he just hooked up another one a couple weeks after dday. I trigger every time I see him on it. We have been in each others accounts for years. We also have servers/domains that I configure/administer. He has an online business that I coded for him. When the email from that site wasn't working, I tested, repaired and installed a new one.
> 
> Years ago, his motherboard fried and I took his hard drive and chained it in another tower and reset the permissions on his files so he wouldn't lose all his data. I really feel like a fool that he was able to pull the wool over my eyes. I trusted him completely and NEVER checked up on him. I guess I should have.
> 
> ...


I totally understand missing him and still being close enough to reach out and touch him- yet unable to do so. Have you told him that you miss him?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> I totally understand missing him and still being close enough to reach out and touch him- yet unable to do so. Have you told him that you miss him?


Yes. Today I told him. But it was in the middle of a very emotional exchange (me crying, bearing my soul and him, silent). I just think I should have told him at some other time, when he was more receptive. Actually, I hate that I have to find the right time for anything....

I asked him how long he thought we should spend on Sundays discussing MC concerns, he said a half hour. I was livid at this response. I said, "There is nothing more important to me than restoring our marriage. Its all I think about. I would spend 24 hours a day on it if I could, it means that much to me."

Then I just started crying and got angry. I told him the roles should be flipped. HE should be the one who feels that way, not me. I guess its just falling apart. Maybe we are just having a bad couple of days.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes. Today I told him. But it was in the middle of a very emotional exchange (me crying, bearing my soul and him, silent). I just think I should have told him at some other time, when he was more receptive. Actually, I hate that I have to find the right time for anything....
> 
> I asked him how long he thought we should spend on Sundays discussing MC concerns, he said a half hour. I was livid at this response. I said, "There is nothing more important to me than restoring our marriage. Its all I think about. I would spend 24 hours a day on it if I could, it means that much to me."
> 
> Then I just started crying and got angry. I told him the roles should be flipped. HE should be the one who feels that way, not me. I guess its just falling apart. Maybe we are just having a bad couple of days.


It sounds kind of like my H in the very beginning because he didnt know WHAT to do or say. It wasnt that he didnt WANT to-he didnt know how. You are right, unfortunately timing can be everything. How do you feel about saying that to him again in a more controlled setting? Maybe he didnt even hear you b/c he is just SO overwhelmed. I know in the beginning when H and I talked, sometimes he was really quiet and it seemed like he wasnt listening. That was far from true. It was just that he was worried to say that one thing that would be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak. I have found that I have to speak to him with as little emotion as possible if I want him to hear me. If I am crying or yelling he is so concerned with my state of mind and with 'fixing' me at the moment that he cant listen.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> It sounds kind of like my H in the very beginning because he didnt know WHAT to do or say. It wasnt that he didnt WANT to-he didnt know how. You are right, unfortunately timing can be everything. How do you feel about saying that to him again in a more controlled setting? Maybe he didnt even hear you b/c he is just SO overwhelmed. I know in the beginning when H and I talked, sometimes he was really quiet and it seemed like he wasnt listening. That was far from true. It was just that he was worried to say that one thing that would be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak. I have found that I have to speak to him with as little emotion as possible if I want him to hear me. If I am crying or yelling he is so concerned with my state of mind and with 'fixing' me at the moment that he cant listen.


Isn't that the truth!

I am resolving to get my house organized and get into the best shape of my life. Now there's something I can focus on that I have control over.

Thanks CTU, so very much. I will tell him again in a quiet time.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Here's the thing - he can repair the damage if he will talk to you openly and repeatedly - but he doesn't seem to want to. So the question becomes why. There's about three answers. One, he's still hiding something and knows that if he talks about it eventually he'll slip up and you'll pick up the scent. 2. He as a communication problem, either shame or generic. 3. At this point he is conditioned that talking about it is traumatic for you and to save you obvious pain (and him the pain of knowing he is hurting you again) he is mistakenly trying to bury it not realizing that doing so is keeping you in limbo hell. Option one is clearly worst case scenario and has its own set of responses. Options two and three require some work to break through. Option two just requires some work on his part to push through and give you what you need - I think this is the least likely of the three. Option three can be fleshed out with a little work on your part. If you can contain your emotions and make it easier for him to talk then he may open up. You don't have to quash your emotions just try not to put them on display. Tell him about them rather than showing him. If he can see that you can talk about it without your ending up in an emotional morass he may be more comfortable talking to you. One of you has got to make it easier for the other - it should be him but clearly he's not going to do it - so it falls to you - sucks but that's where you are. Giving him what he needs so he can give you what you need. If you do everything to make it easy and possible for him to talk and he still refuses, well then IMO you have to more seriously start considering option 1 and (calmly) I'd tell him that at some point.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Here's the thing - he can repair the damage if he will talk to you openly and repeatedly - but he doesn't seem to want to. So the question becomes why. There's about three answers. One, he's still hiding something and knows that if he talks about it eventually he'll slip up and you'll pick up the scent. 2. He as a communication problem, either shame or generic. 3. At this point he is conditioned that talking about it is traumatic for you and to save you obvious pain (and him the pain of knowing he is hurting you again) he is mistakenly trying to bury it not realizing that doing so is keeping you in limbo hell. Option one is clearly worst case scenario and has its own set of responses. Options two and three require some work to break through. Option two just requires some work on his part to push through and give you what you need - I think this is the least likely of the three. Option three can be fleshed out with a little work on your part. If you can contain your emotions and make it easier for him to talk then he may open up. You don't have to quash your emotions just try not to put them on display. Tell him about them rather than showing him. If he can see that you can talk about it without your ending up in an emotional morass he may be more comfortable talking to you. One of you has got to make it easier for the other - it should be him but clearly he's not going to do it - so it falls to you - sucks but that's where you are. Giving him what he needs so he can give you what you need. If you do everything to make it easy and possible for him to talk and he still refuses, well then IMO you have to more seriously start considering option 1 and (calmly) I'd tell him that at some point.


Thanks, sigma. You know somedays I can see with clarity what I need to do. Maybe more how I need to be. I feel it strongly. A calm confidence that is just truth. So much is obvious that words mess up somehow. I am sure I get lost in the words. 

Its in the quiet time I have that it makes sense. And I see what has to come. How painful it doesn't have to be. How simple, really.

These fleeting bouts of emotional independence are so exhilarating. I feel like a dolphin breaching the water. Seeing the shimmering surface of the ocean even for just a moment. Its like I come back to tell him how beautiful it is and he takes one of 2 forms:

1) The depth-dweller who never surfaces, OR

2) The shark who knows all about it but has more pressing concerns....

Actually, he takes many forms in this ideation, but I just long for the days when we were both dolphins (or so I thought) and had lots of fun together.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Wednesdays. Anxiety time for me. Tonight I think I will let him do the talking.


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