# I cannot believe I just read this....



## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

barf....wtf?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-resilience/201206/want-have-healthy-affair-heres-how


----------



## Ralph Bellamy (Aug 8, 2016)

The part where it says an affair can be helpful for a person in an abusive relationship to see what a healthy relationship is like really hacks me off. Anyone can claim their relationship is abusive. Us men are all such brutes and ogres....


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

That is kind of weird. But I'm not too surprised.

I noticed that in the example affairs in the article; they all seemed to get divorced; it didn't seem to cause them to wake up and fight for their marriages.

So, they could have just divorced in the first place.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What is so weird about it?

If the marriage is dead or zombified, there's little point in fighting for the corpse.


----------



## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

The author is primarily a corporate consultant who's agenda is to create an efficient work environment. In his mind a man with commitment outside of work is not an efficient worker. Similarly, his definition of "psychologically healthy marriage" does not include pesky little distractions like children and growing old together. Unfortunately, many MCs attend conferences where they are bombarded with this kind of nonsense making them less effective as marriage therapists.


----------



## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Ralph Bellamy said:


> The part where it says an affair can be helpful for a person in an abusive relationship to see what a healthy relationship is like really hacks me off. Anyone can claim their relationship is abusive. Us men are all such brutes and ogres....


I'm with you 100% on this. It seems the media and public opinion is always bent on a negative perception of men. Any idea that an affair is a healthy thing is messed up.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> What is so weird about it?
> 
> If the marriage is dead or zombified, there's little point in fighting for the corpse.




Yes, so if it's dead or zombified, just get a divorce. No corpse fighting involved.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, so if it's dead or zombified, just get a divorce. No corpse fighting involved.


The economics of divorce pose some rather unfortunate constraints. I believe if affairs were more socially acceptable in the USA we would slowly see divorce laws become more equitable... Lesser of two evils type thing.


----------



## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

The entire article is in cheaterspeak. "I was in a loveless marriage" (aka, ILYBNILWY), He abused me, (then get out). Disabled as a reason to cheat? (might as well pull the plug too eh?). But my favorite 'healthy reason' to cheat.... 'to improve the marriage'. Wow, just wow. The minduckery is strong with this one.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

john117 said:


> The economics of divorce pose some rather unfortunate constraints. I believe if affairs were more socially acceptable in the USA we would slowly see divorce laws become more equitable... Lesser of two evils type thing.



Perhaps. But you're going for the "outwit, outlast,outplay" strategy yourself; not an affair, IIRC.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Speaking personally, I haven't found anyone worth having an affair with. Or the time. Heck, I haven't gone cycling for a month...

Affair implies some selectivity from where I see it. Not simply a Craigslist ad FWB based relationship...


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ok, notwithstanding the wrath ya'll will feel about me, my observation is this cat is essentially correct in pointing out the some things in environment that causes the genesis and nurturing of an affair. 
Folks can talk about, "that has nothing to do with it. They cheated because they are a cheater", but I think an independent observer, and the person(s) saying it if they put their ego aside, can quickly spot the dynamics in a marriage that is the impetus that often leads to cheating.
I want to add that I don't think affairs lead to a sense of long term well being, but, like it or not, in some cases it does provide the cheater with a bridge to recapture their sense of self worth. Lets face it, a good part of your life and expense is getting pretty so hopefully the oppose sex is attracted to you. When your spouse is not confirming your desirability, a good percentage of folks will turn to others to get that confirmation. And that's worth more than the pleasure you get out of the sexual aspect of the affair.


----------



## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

That's why these so called experts many times do more harm than good.

This shrink stuff is just a subjective science, not quantitive or measure able. Tell ten of them the exact same story and you'll get 5 different recommendations and opinions.

And the range is beyond belief. 

If you have read any of this Dr. Harley guys articles, and he is considered an EXPERT, his advice to BH upon discovery is to play total Mr. Nice Guy for six months, compliment your WW on how she looks as she goes out with her boyfriends and kiss her ass trying to win her back. How many think that iOS great advice or could do it.

Not Just Friends takes a 180 degree different approach. 

That's why so much money is wasted on this MC crap way too soon in most situations.

Just my opinion. I know others will differ


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

john117 said:


> The economics of divorce pose some rather unfortunate constraints. I believe if affairs were more socially acceptable in the USA we would slowly see divorce laws become more equitable... Lesser of two evils type thing.


Please PM me the contact info of your pot dealer.


----------



## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

VladDracul said:


> Ok, notwithstanding the wrath ya'll will feel about me, my observation is this cat is essentially correct in pointing out the some things in environment that causes the genesis and nurturing of an affair.
> Folks can talk about, "that has nothing to do with it. They cheated because they are a cheater", but I think an independent observer, and the person(s) saying it if they put their ego aside, can quickly spot the dynamics in a marriage that is the impetus that often leads to cheating.
> I want to add that I don't think affairs lead to a sense of long term well being, but, like it or not, in some cases it does provide the cheater with a bridge to recapture their sense of self worth. Lets face it, a good part of your life and expense is getting pretty so hopefully the oppose sex is attracted to you. When your spouse is not confirming your desirability, a good percentage of folks will turn to others to get that confirmation. And that's worth more than the pleasure you get out of the sexual aspect of the affair.


Vlad's gonna burn in hell for this one


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

straightshooter said:


> If you have read any of this Dr. Harley guys articles, and he is considered an EXPERT, his advice to BH upon discovery is to play total Mr. Nice Guy for six months, compliment your WW on how she looks as she goes out with her boyfriends and kiss her ass trying to win her back. How many think that iOS great advice or could do it.


Being Mr. Nice Guy is anti-challenge and a turn off for women anyway. That's like a someone saying the best way to stop smoking one pack of cigarettes a day is to start smoking two packs. 
When it comes to advice on women, a general rule is to reject any advice that doesn't make you appear to be a bad boy. History proves most women, if they are attracted to men at all, are attracted to the bad boy.


----------



## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> Being Mr. Nice Guy is anti-challenge and a turn off for women anyway. That's like a someone saying the best way to stop smoking one pack of cigarettes a day is to start smoking two packs.
> When it comes to advice on women, a general rule is to reject any advice that doesn't make you appear to be a bad boy. History proves most women, if they are attracted to men at all, are attracted to the bad boy.


Yeah, but you've got to understand that from Harley's perspective, he's not trying to help the BH or stop the A, his goal is perpetual limbo so he can milk as many $$$ as possible from books, coaching sessions and weekend get-aways.

A BH taking a strong stance shuts down the money tree for him.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> I cannot believe I just read this....


Believe it. This bilge just gets regurgitated and lapped up by the masses _ad infintem_.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Douglas LaBier, Ph.D., a business psychologist


So he is eminently qualified to offer relationship advice, right?

"So, Doc, how are we going with this open heart surgery?"

"Gee, I don't know! Why ask me? I'm only a brain surgeon! Say, buddy, could you pass me that Stilson wrench and the... uhh... thingummyjig?"
:rofl:


----------



## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

See, it's like this. This is the New Age mindless psycho babble tailored to this weak beta male generation. Makes you wonder if the good doctor has ever been cheated on in the past, and whether he willingly became a cuckold or not.


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I have no problem with the scenario's that end with divorce. None at all. Once discovered, infidelity will taint everything in the marriage. Most men will never, ever really forgive and many will see their wife as a cheating **** as long as they stay together. Not every minute of every day, but when something triggers him he will look at her with pure contempt. So, when H or W decide to divorce after the "awakening" of an affair that is a happy ending in my book - as long as they never tell BS about their cheating. Also, if your spouse is way sick and unable to even communicate with you I think finding a FB is a great idea - as long as you fulfill your obligation to continue to care for your spouse.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> Most men will never, ever really forgive and many will see their wife as a cheating **** as long as they stay together. Not every minute of every day, but when something triggers him he will look at her with pure contempt.


My observation has been that many, if not most, men will not divorce their wives for infidelity. Excuses run the gambit from the damage supposedly done to kids, to finances, to whatever. Some would try to leapfrog over the Grand Canyon for their wives to give up the lover and reconcile. A woman married to a man for any length of time know when the risk is low that an affair will actually cost her marriage. I'd venture to say that in most cases its the WW that actually walks away from the marriage leaving the distraught husband with his hat in his hand.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> Ok, notwithstanding the wrath ya'll will feel about me, my observation is this cat is essentially correct in pointing out the some things in environment that causes the genesis and nurturing of an affair.
> Folks can talk about, "that has nothing to do with it. They cheated because they are a cheater", but I think an independent observer, and the person(s) saying it if they put their ego aside, can quickly spot the dynamics in a marriage that is the impetus that often leads to cheating.
> I want to add that I don't think affairs lead to a sense of long term well being, but, like it or not, in some cases it does provide the cheater with a bridge to recapture their sense of self worth. Lets face it, a good part of your life and expense is getting pretty so hopefully the oppose sex is attracted to you. When your spouse is not confirming your desirability, a good percentage of folks will turn to others to get that confirmation. And that's worth more than the pleasure you get out of the sexual aspect of the affair.


I see your point Vlad,

But IMO.....if a person feels the only or best way for them to recapture their self worth is to inflict extreme trauma and (essentially) PTSD on those closest to them in life (spouse AND kids), well then the bar they must have set for feeling good about themselves must be pretty f*cking low......it's pathetic really......how about making an effort to go out and accomplish something that you can feel REAL self-esteem over?

And I, for sure, wouldn't want a person this screwed up even remotely in my personal life (I tolerate or am civil to them in my work/professional life because I'm expected to by my employer).

Reason Numerous Uno why I will never date a former WW or OW.

I have nothing but disdain for people who soothe themselves or get their ego boosts from actions that result in pain and humiliation for others.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Oh and LaBier is a dumb*ss.

If it makes you feel better, it must be good and worth it.....who cares what damage and pain it might inflict on others (BS, OBS, kids, family, etc).

I wonder if he approves of the moronic teens and young men who boost their pathetic feelings of superiority and self-worth by running around attacking and beating homeless people.

If it makes them feel better about themselves it must be worth it right?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> I have no problem with the scenario's that end with divorce. None at all. Once discovered, infidelity will taint everything in the marriage. Most men will never, ever really forgive and many will see their wife as a cheating **** as long as they stay together. Not every minute of every day, but when something triggers him he will look at her with pure contempt. So, when H or W decide to divorce after the "awakening" of an affair that is a happy ending in my book - as long as they never tell BS about their cheating. Also, if your spouse is way sick and unable to even communicate with you I think finding a FB is a great idea - as long as you fulfill your obligation to continue to care for your spouse.


So for 20 or 30 years you still supposedly can't get over your wife's "affair" and failure to maintain her vow "forsaking all others" which she actually commenced pretty much while you were somewhat separated {at your insistence} but trying to work things out whereas if your wife was "way sick and unable to even communicate" NOW, at your much more mature and supposedly more intelligent years, your vow "forsaking all others in sickness and in health" becomes a wishy-washy commitment????

So adultery is only wrong when it's done to you?


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Why I get am not a MC. 

@striaghtshooter to some degree you are giving MB a bum rap. First he has aiways said if his wife comminted adultery he would divorce. His Plan Aand Plan requires the BS to do some tough things (that never get done - so failure is high). Have you read this Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums. How many posters here think it is a good idea to expose to a FOUR YEAR OLD CHILD ????? Personally I think not only is exposured a must to kill the adultery to save a marriage, it is a must to DIVORCE. The WS HS already brought the OM/OW into the marriage. Fyck me if they get say in my divorce. In my case his wife knew but I went after his friends, his AA group, his cycle club, etc. Why, he was getting his jollies getting into my marriage, no way he was going to play the big shot in my divorce. 

On another note it drives me insane when I hear MC who only want to talk about issues in the marriage. Of course there are issues in the marriage that need to be addressed. But they cannot be addressed until the adultery is addressed. Why can't they see that. Basic first aid: the person is not breathing and is bleeding heavy. Yea you need to get them breathing. But while you are doing that the patient bleeds to death. How can the BS fix issue and all they feel is the effect of adultery. 

Finally I make an effort to use the term adultery, not affair or cheating. An affair - young love. Cheating - at cards. Adultery is a cold judgemental word that fits what occurred. It speaks to the devastation to the entire family. It speaks to denying the BS the affection that is life, not what makes it worth living. It speaks to sleeping in a cold bed. It speaks to being alone and isolated. It speaks to a trauma that leaves a life time of issues. It speaks to who the WS is and only the WS. They and the other person made the choice to do so. @Doykemm is right in his refusal to date anyone involved with adultery. And those who help then hide the adultery, they are not much better than those who protected a pedophile and let a child continue to be harmed.

Redemption, yes I do believe in it. I also know there is a hell of a lot more fools gold in the world then the real thing. I have known a handful of people who have earned it. But even decades later they are still owning it.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Vald there are two types of nice people: those who are strong, those who are weak. 

A strong person is kind because they want to be. They expect nothing in return. The kindness is purely a reflection of who they are. 

A weak person is kind out of fear. They hope their kindness forces others to be kind to them. They whine when kindness is not returned. They use it as a weapon to force others to do what they want. 

Another example: being honest when there is no chance of getting caught. The strong do so for themselves. The weak do it and tell others as a means of getting respect. 

I am honest because that is who I am. My ex wanted people to know when she was.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

MyRevelation said:


> Yeah, but you've got to understand that from Harley's perspective, he's not trying to help the BH or stop the A, his goal is perpetual limbo so he can milk as many $$$ as possible from books, coaching sessions and weekend get-aways.
> 
> A BH taking a strong stance shuts down the money tree for him.


Are you drinking again??? 

There's a lot of authors and websites out there exploiting and fleecing desperate betrayed spouse looking for THE solution to their marital crisis but singling out and categorizing Dr. Harley as one of them doesn't ring true to me at all. He might be the only author I've seen that pretty much puts much of it out there on his website for everyone to read and utilize for free. I've even linked articles and videos to many persons over the years. I've read a couple of his books, done a couples bible study by him and our church marriage program utilized the book "Effective Marriage Counseling" {I think that's the title} as the initial training 6 week class for new volunteers. My wife and I used to listen to his radio show from time to time and he's constantly giving away his advice and books. I just can't see how this criticism is 'earned':grin2: especially when there are so many other much more befitting examples out there {Chumplady, Joe Beam, AskSuzy, Athol Kay, Weiner~Davis, Huzeinga, Mort Fertle, Amy Waterman to name a few}. One reason I feel safe or confident offering Dr. Harley's information or referring to his resources is the fact that he's still actually married to his first wife and he, from what I know, has never cheated on his wife. There's way too much marital relationship advice being presented by divorced cheaters (like Gottman, Dr. Glover, Chumplady). 

I see now you used to post on what appears to be a free coaching forum over there before joining LS as ChurchBells. Your 1400+ post count there appears to go back to 2007 when you were first betrayed. Help me comprehend your criticisms. How did Dr. Harley exploit you? Doesn't appear you were 'in limbo' long even though your exposure was fairly weak and you are against exposure, in general {talk about promoting limbo?}. How much did you spend on "books, coaching and weekend get-aways? It appears you are still in a recovered marriage, are you dissatisfied with your choices and are looking to scapegoat Dr. Harley? I don't even see where he actually helped you {but I did not read everything}. Have you actually talked to the man?. Were you on the radio program? Were you "truly wronged" by him? Were you banned? What I'm getting at, because I remember you posting similar stuff on LS, is maybe this is just paybacks on some grudge you have against him? My supposition is congruous with something you recently posted on another thread:



MyRevelation said:


> I've explained this before, but I come from a long line of very serious grudge holders. It is very common and expected in the Appalachian sub-culture where I was raised and live.
> 
> When I have been truly wronged by someone, I will take that grudge and any other hard feelings I may harbor with me until one of us has been planted. In addition, as part of that, I feel that it is just as important that the subject of that grudge knows exactly how I feel about them, and that I won't hesitate to exact some form of payback from them should the opportunity ever arise.


Do take notice, you're not the only one with grudges. You once indicated on LS that if your wife had an affair with a black man it would be a deal breaker for you as attempting reconciliation after an interracial affair would require you to compromise your {racist} beliefs. Well, as a 'man of color' I took particular offense to that comment. You'll reconcile with your wife that had an affair with a complete stranger on a cruise ship but, you wouldn't even consider recovery if she slept with any {non-white} man? I can't believe you'd say that out loud but I do recognize and denounce your particular {fortunately NON-universal and slowly dissipating} brand of "Appalachian sub-culture".


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Quality you do a disservice by not mentioning non-appalachin groups not to include them. The worst are liberals. In 1977 I worked as a dishwasher in a kosher style camp in upstate NY. If I had a nickle for every die in the wool long island democrat who whispered "I use to be....until I ad to go to school with them Bill Gates would eat his heart out. 

Reminds me of the joke of about a fighter. During the first round he got his head handed to him. His manager kept telling him how great he was doing, that the other guy had not touched him. Round two it is even worse. Again the manger tells him hr is winning, that the guy hadn't touch him at all. As round three starts the fighter tells the manage "hey keep your eye on the referee.". The manager says "sure, why"? The fighter says "well someone out there is beating the crap out of me"!!!!

MB reminds me of a group my parents where involved in while I was in my late teens named "encounters". I glanced though the lit and what stuck me was how often this program was not for troubled marriages, but for healthy one's. It was designed to strengths healthy marriages. A lot of MB can be viewed in that light.

Personally as Dr H says plan A and plan is only for those who refuse to let go and divorce. Hopeful if a person uses this plan it will help then say "hey I tried everything, it's not my fault" when they do divorce. Pick 6 tickets are a better investement. For me I used her actions to make myself proud of myself for how I handed it. I have airways admired people how had a **** sandwich dealt them and held themselves together. Now that defines what an adult is.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

VladDracul said:


> A woman married to a man for any length of time know when the risk is low that an affair will actually cost her marriage.


Considering the starting over aspect, coupled with the financially hit that men take especially with SAHM and kids... the woman's risk level is lowered. 

Furthermore, remember... between lying, TT, and covering their tracks... No One Ever Going to Know and No One Will Ever Get Hurt.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

JohnA said:


> A strong person is kind because they want to be. They expect nothing in return. The kindness is purely a reflection of who they are.


At the risk of sounding like its self-hype, I like to think Im this type. I can honestly say I expect nothing in return. Moreover I expect the persons I'm dealing with, and especially the girl I'm married, to be the same. I looked for those qualities before I married her. (probably the reason I can count my friends on one hand including my wife as a friend.
I can also be brutal and uncaring to someone who crosses me. My personality is such that finances and status that's frequently mentioned as a reason the reconcile, could never be enough. Nor could I love someone who betrayed my unless my overt actions pushed them over the line. Accordingly, I have little patients with these guys who say, "I was a good husband and she said she said her love died, left me for another guy but I love her and want her back"


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> Being Mr. Nice Guy is anti-challenge and a turn off for women anyway. That's like a someone saying the best way to stop smoking one pack of cigarettes a day is to start smoking two packs.
> When it comes to advice on women, a general rule is to reject any advice that doesn't make you appear to be a bad boy. History proves most women, if they are attracted to men at all, are attracted to the bad boy.


I agree to a point. 

From anecdotal evidence I have seen reading hundreds of stories from posters on TAM and other sites, many women (not all) want to fvck bad boys, but they want to marry the good boys and let them raise the bad boys' babies.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

I find it curious that no mention is made about honor, virtue, integrity and honesty. Once a vow is given is it not a breach of one's honor to break one's word? And this is good? Being a person of integrity is it not self destructive to lie? And this is good? Being an honest person is it not self destructive to practice deceit? And this is good? I can see no good in this at all unless you count only the self serving desire for pleasure. In fact, I see the behavior as inherently destructive for any person of character. Fascinating.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> VladDracul said:
> 
> 
> > Being Mr. Nice Guy is anti-challenge and a turn off for women anyway. That's like a someone saying the best way to stop smoking one pack of cigarettes a day is to start smoking two packs.
> ...


Any woman that is, in our current state of evolution, thinking this way is only capable of limbic thought. Have we not evolved to a place where more cognition is involved? Seemingly not.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> Any woman that is, in our current state of evolution, thinking this way is only capable of limbic thought. Have we not evolved to a place where more cognition is involved? Seemingly not.


I am currently reading a book about the ancient Spartans. Of all the Hellenistic-era societies, Spartan women were remarkably liberated compared to Athenians and their other neighbors. One aspect of their liberation was the fact that Spartan women, with the consent of their husbands, could have several male lovers, and many were young virile men who could father strong male warriors. 

It was a commonly accepted practice, because the Spartan state demanded women give birth to as many strong male children as possible during their lifetimes. Spartan husbands were expected to fall in line with that practice in order to keep the male population healthy. It was easy for them since they did not even live with their wives and children, but rather lived in the military barracks with their brethren. Their relationships to their wives was purely sexual and businesslike. They were full time warriors while the women ran the estates and were full-time baby factories. 

So female hegemony is not a new concept. For instance, the pagan women of ancient Ireland had respectable economic and political power, nearly equal to that of what women today enjoy. They could divorce their husbands at will and without cause, had complete control over their own property, could inherit lands and property, had a voice in law making, and.... it was common and socially acceptable for a married Irish woman to take many lovers. 

Again, with the high mortality rate and war attrition of Bronze age Ireland, an Irish wife's primary social role was to give birth to as many strong sons as she could, who could take on their father's responsibilities and make war with enemy tribes. If that meant she had to have sex with many other men than her husband, so be it. It was rarely questioned and an Irish husband had little say in it. 

St. Patrick had a hell of a time getting these Irish women to stop their polyamorous lifestyles, and he wrote about this ad nausea in his records.

What I'm saying is, I believe there is strong genetic coding in modern day women that compels them to mate wit the strongest and most virile men they can.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Bandit I would take those books with a large dose of salt. Swinging and open marriages are not common in US culture but exist and are widely discussed. For example Irish custom was a woman's dowery stayed with her in marriage. In reality the husband "managed" real property, cash and livestock without her input. The only thing she had real say in was house hold items and jewelry.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I am currently reading a book about the ancient Spartans. Of all the Hellenistic-era societies, Spartan women were remarkably liberated compared to Athenians and their other neighbors. One aspect of their liberation was the fact that Spartan women, with the consent of their husbands, could have several male lovers, and many were young virile men who could father strong male warriors.
> 
> It was a commonly accepted practice, because the Spartan state demanded women give birth to as many strong male children as possible during their lifetimes. Spartan husbands were expected to fall in line with that practice in order to keep the male population healthy. It was easy for them since they did not even live with their wives and children, but rather lived in the military barracks with their brethren. Their relationships to their wives was purely sexual and businesslike. They were full time warriors while the women ran the estates and were full-time baby factories.
> 
> ...


I agree however I contend that we should, at some point, as we evolve, mature or what have you, bring more cognition into the equation. Perhaps lacking that cognitive ability women now equate strong and virile to "bad", even in light of how "bad boys" treat women.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> barf....wtf?
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-resilience/201206/want-have-healthy-affair-heres-how


*Definitely not a Christian counselor who adheres anywhere close to the intent and security of "marital vows!"

He's just some unconsciable charlatan who's out to sell some skewed logic in order to put a buck or two of some self-serving persons money into his own fat wallet! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *Definitely not a Christian counselor who adheres anywhere close to the intent and security of "marital vows!"
> 
> He's just some unconsciable charlatan who's out to sell some skewed logic in order to put a buck or two of some self-serving persons money into his own fat wallet! *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's got to be Episcopalian. They take their doctrine out of the latest issues of _Good Housekeeping_.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

NoChoice said:


> I agree however I contend that we should, at some point, as we evolve, mature or what have you, bring more cognition into the equation. Perhaps lacking that cognitive ability women now equate strong and virile to "bad", even in light of how "bad boys" treat women.


I think much of it is gender equality, which is now becoming the norm. Women feel free now to go after the bad boys they wished they had dated more in college. Their nice guy husbands are just not making the grade anymore.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> From anecdotal evidence I have seen reading hundreds of stories from posters on TAM and other sites, many women (not all) want to fvck bad boys, but they want to marry the good boys and let them raise the bad boys' babies.


And stupid me draws conclusions from anecdotal evidence. I apparently lack the mental capabilities to grasp the idea that conclusions reached from someone's purported random sample should always take precedence over what I've personally observed.  And what the f does someone want to be nice guy husband when they're the ones seem to not get much puzzy and eventually get left in a cloud of dust. My advice is to have a reputation that you don't take no shyt. Many of the women we marry are like a lot of other folks; the more shyt you prove you'll take, the more they'll dish out.
Oh, if I were a Spartan, I'd want to be one of them young virile men who could father strong male warriors.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

VladDracul said:


> And stupid me draws conclusions from anecdotal evidence. I apparently lack the mental capabilities to grasp the idea that conclusions reached from someone's purported random sample should always take precedence over what I've personally observed.  And what the f does someone want to be nice guy husband when they're the ones seem to not get much puzzy and eventually get left in a cloud of dust. My advice is to have a reputation that you don't take no shyt. Many of the women we marry are like a lot of other folks; the more shyt you prove you'll take, the more they'll dish out.
> Oh, if I were a Spartan, I'd want to be one of them young virile men who could father strong male warriors.


I grew up in a copper mining / ranching community in southeast Arizona. Growing up, one consistent, blaring fact that I noticed was that all the meanest, most hell-raising men that I was acquainted with were the ones with the hottest wives. The nice guys had the stumpy, butter-faced gals. 

Now...I'm no rocket scientist or Harvard-educated psychologist, but even then my young mind could see the pattern. The most physically attractive women in any given environment are going to be attracted to the most masculine, manly men...regardless of looks. Some of these guys were slab-faced mules just one arrest shy of going to prison, but they had gorgeous women on their arms.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> He's got to be Episcopalian. They take their doctrine out of the latest issues of _Good Housekeeping_.


*There are actually a few liberal-leaning Methodists out there, Bandito, that might try to adhere to that very same line of logic!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

arbitrator said:


> *There are actually a few liberal-leaning Methodists out there, Bandito, that might try to adhere to that very same line of logic!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh I know. My dad's family were Methodist, and then when the UMC started allowing women to be pastors my dad bailed and became a Baptist. 

Methodists are just Baptists who can read.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Oh I know. My dad's family were Methodist, and then when the UMC started allowing women to be pastors my dad bailed and became a Baptist.
> 
> *Methodists are just Baptists who can read...*


*... wear robes in the pulpit, drink, and dance!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JohnA said:


> Bandit I would take those books with a large dose of salt. Swinging and open marriages are not common in US culture but exist and are widely discussed. For example Irish custom was a woman's dowery stayed with her in marriage. In reality the husband "managed" real property, cash and livestock without her input. The only thing she had real say in was house hold items and jewelry.


We are talking pre-modern history. Pre-Fifth century, in fact.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> I grew up in a copper mining / ranching community in southeast Arizona. Growing up, one consistent, blaring fact that I noticed was that all the meanest, most hell-raising men that I was acquainted with were the ones with the hottest wives. The nice guys had the stumpy, butter-faced gals.
> 
> Now...I'm no rocket scientist or Harvard Educated psychologist but even then my young mind could see the pattern. The most physically attractive women in any given environment are going to be attracted to the most masculine, manly men...regardless of looks. Some of these guys were slab-faced mules just one arrest shy of going to prison, but they had gorgeous women on their arms.


Perhaps if neanderthal man were still around all of the cro-magnons would be with the "stumpy, butter-faced" women. We late day ****-sapiens wouldn't stand a chance. We would have to settle for the cognitively developed intelligent women. Still fascinating to me that the majority of women would choose the behavior of a distant, primitive ancestor over that of a more cognitive descendant.

"Nice guys" are indeed at a disadvantage in this current stage of our development and until women begin to develop the ability to appreciate them, there will be this disparity. I also find it interesting and ironic that many, perhaps not all, of the "bad boys" that women choose may inflict the pain on them that they inflict on the "nice guys". Perhaps that is what some refer to as karma.

Perhaps in a few more thousand years.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

JohnA said:


> Bandit I would take those books with a large dose of salt. Swinging and open marriages are not common in US culture but exist and are widely discussed. For example Irish custom was a woman's dowery stayed with her in marriage. In reality the husband "managed" real property, cash and livestock without her input. The only thing she had real say in was house hold items and jewelry.


Well I think this was more in the modern, post-Christianity Ireland. The books I've read are about pre-Christian pagan/ bronze-age societies up to the Viking period. Oh, and Viking women? Wanton... Wanton... 

The practice of men lording it over women and controlling property actually was introduced to the British isles by the Romans when they invaded in AD 40. This practice was later reinforced by the Roman Catholic church.


----------



## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I was aware this was the time frame being discussed. Other interesting facts of that era was the role of clans in the legal system. Every person had a life value depending on occupation. Kings/bards/princes (in that order) where the highest value. If I as a Murphy killed or murdered a O'Brian all my family, cousins and clan would be held have to pay this debt to the victims family. 

If I was disowned by my clan anyone could murder me, rob me, enslave me and no one would stand up to for me. I've read that often disowning meant being branded on the forehead so where every I went people would know I was without a clan. 

I am merely saying do not make the exception the rule. An different example from the Jewish tradition. You are Jewish from your mother not father. If I am Jewish and my wife is not, my child would have to convert to Judaism. But if my wife was Jewish and I was not, even if the child never knew she was Jewish, would be considered Jewish. Does that mean Jewish culture promoted open marriages?


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

JohnA said:


> Bandit I would take those books with a large dose of salt. Swinging and open marriages are not common in US culture but exist and are widely discussed. For example Irish custom was a woman's dowery stayed with her in marriage. In reality the husband "managed" real property, cash and livestock without her input. The only thing she had real say in was house hold items and jewelry.


Actually, Bandit is right......his is an accurate description of PAGAN Celtic Ireland before the coming of Christianity.

In fact it was true of all pre-Christian Celtic societies, including the Picts, Britons, Belgae, and Gauls.

The Greeks and Romans were scandalized by the freedom allowed to women, married or single, in Celtic societies.......and many Classical writers wrote disapprovingly of these 'barbarian' social practices.


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

VladDracul said:


> And stupid me draws conclusions from anecdotal evidence. I apparently lack the mental capabilities to grasp the idea that conclusions reached from someone's purported random sample should always take precedence over what I've personally observed.  And what the f does someone want to be nice guy husband when they're the ones seem to not get much puzzy and eventually get left in a cloud of dust. My advice is to have a reputation that you don't take no shyt. Many of the women we marry are like a lot of other folks; the more shyt you prove you'll take, the more they'll dish out.
> Oh, if I were a Spartan, I'd want to be one of them young virile men who could father strong male warriors.


I agree with you 100% Vlad on the 'reputation' thing.

And not just in a relationship....but in life in general.

I don't care if it's a partner, or its your boss, you are absolutely correct that.... 'the more shut you prove you'll take, the more they'll dish out.'


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> barf....wtf?
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-new-resilience/201206/want-have-healthy-affair-heres-how


The author has to be a cheater. I read all their points. Every single one of them was only focused on what was best for the cheater and everyone they hurt because of it be damned.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

My brother is the exemplary bully kind of 'loving' husband. 

Gross, indifferent to others needs, rude, closed for intimacy and real talking. But funny, and really providing.

Now his wife would maybe like a very different person to be married with but has rested in this being her married life. She is the victim and stays with him, because of her vows, sense of duty, the money, and simple because she has grown used to the situation.

Many betrayed husbands on TAM have had a revelation about themselves being a person like him.

Now would I condemn an affair if she had one? No. I only think it logical that someone would escape from this prison and look for freedom. One does if the advantages of leaving outnumber the advantages of staying.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> My brother is the exemplary bully kind of 'loving' husband.
> 
> Gross, indifferent to others needs, rude, closed for intimacy and real talking. But funny, and really providing.
> 
> ...


Would that involve any level of honesty and/or actually leaving her husband OR carrying on an affair in secret for months or years, all the while staying in the marital home and continuing to enjoy all the things that her husband provides?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Women go for good looks, more often than anything else. That has real power over a woman.

You act like it doesn't matter so much if a guy is beautiful. And the word to describe a guy with a pretty face and good body is "beautiful". Beautiful is beautiful, sometimes it's female and sometimes it's male.

Yes, in some segments of our culture, at different times some Danny Trejo looking guy might get girls because he's a rough, mean jerk.

Most women don't find it attractive. Because it isn't.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> That is kind of weird. But I'm not too surprised.
> 
> I noticed that in the example affairs in the article; they all seemed to get divorced; it didn't seem to cause them to wake up and fight for their marriages.
> 
> So, they could have just divorced in the first place.


Ah yes but that would involve in taking responsibility for a decision that they had already made. Far easier to ignore that problem and jump to a better deal when it becomes available, no need to worry about past bad decisions, just claim that this one isn't even cheating, it's just a "good decision" to "get out of the abuse".

Very few people can accept the responsibility of a bad decision and take the hit themselves, far easier to lie to themselves for one more day, than to act.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Would that involve any level of honesty and/or actually leaving her husband OR carrying on an affair in secret for months or years, all the while staying in the marital home and continuing to enjoy all the things that her husband provides?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The first is the right way. The second is understandable as having an exit affair. In this case I would not condemn it. I think it would be the way out, where I can understand one discovers how a relation can be much better. You must not forget I consider her as living in a prison, and escaping is done not before when one realizes that.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> The first is the right way. The second is understandable as having an exit affair. In this case I would not condemn it. I think it would be the way out, where I can understand one discovers how a relation can be much better. You must not forget I consider her as living in a prison, and escaping is done not before when one realizes that.


Kudos to you -- that's just about the finest load of moral cowardice that I've seen of late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

NoChoice said:


> "Nice guys" are indeed at a disadvantage in this current stage of our development and until women begin to develop the ability to appreciate them, there will be this disparity. I also find it interesting and ironic that many, perhaps not all, of the "bad boys" that women choose may inflict the pain on them that they inflict on the "nice guys". Perhaps that is what some refer to as karma.
> 
> Perhaps in a few more thousand years.


The biggest fallacy sold to this generation and perhaps last is that women want a nice respectful guy to be nurturing and understanding. Its everything being taught to our children today and its a bunch of CRAP.

What they crave is unequivocal MEN. Someone who checks that subconscious box in their head that if sh!t ever hit the fan they would be "protected" from danger. It's as ingrained in them as it is for men to desire gorgeous sexy females.

The bad boys "do it" for many in that regard.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Kudos to you -- that's just about the finest load of moral cowardice that I've seen of late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was going to say did I just read that right? It's okay to have an exit affair because you need to test drive the goods before you buy?



See_Listen_Love said:


> The second is understandable as having an exit affair.... where I can understand one discovers how a relation can be much better.


:|


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

Chris Taylor said:


> Vlad's gonna burn in hell for this one


It has been my observation, that the cheater that feels the spouse has been deficient in providing confirmation re desirability, often times, has unrealistic expectations, has not reciprocally provided similar validation to the betrayed, and, to begin with, has a higher than average need for validation which amps up over time. This seems particularly true with folks who have relied, throughout their lives, on their physical appearance to open doors for them.


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> The biggest fallacy sold to this generation and perhaps last is that women want a nice respectful guy to be nurturing and understanding. Its everything being taught to our children today and its a bunch of CRAP.
> 
> What they crave is unequivocal MEN. Someone who checks that subconscious box in their head that if sh!t ever hit the fan they would be "protected" from danger. It's as ingrained in them as it is for men to desire gorgeous sexy females.
> 
> The bad boys "do it" for many in that regard.


I today's world, I think it is wealth and power vs "bad boy" status, that drives hypergamy. 
I was never a "bad boy", although an excellent athlete and in shape at one point. I found that when it was clear to a woman that I had other options and that I was not dependent on her for sex, a particular woman would be most invested in pursuing me.
I think I exuded what is called "Zeta" qualities rather than Alpha, and this seemed to attract a fair number of good looking women.
Bandit living in a different type of community than I did, had a different experience.
In the affluent communities, wealth, good looks, and perceived status seemed to get the most attention.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Bongo said:


> In today's world, I think it is wealth and power vs "bad boy" status, that drives hypergamy.


Fair enough.... "protected" isn't necessarily from a physical danger. It could also be from financial danger as well which wealth would certainly provide.

Whatever the fear, the MAN she seeks must be able to alleviate it with his presence in the relationship and this provides her comfort which facilitates the attraction.


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Fair enough.... "protected" isn't necessarily from a physical danger. It could also be from financial danger as well which wealth would certainly provide.
> 
> Whatever the fear, the MAN she seeks must be able to alleviate it with his presence in the relationship and this provides her comfort which facilitates the attraction.


With some, as we have seen, regardless of the initial hypergamic draw, the attraction fades and the desire for variety and validation kicks in. Not much one can do about it if you have a mate with this type of proclivity. Best to screen for this in courtship, but it is difficult due to masking and " best foot forward" strategies.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Bongo said:


> With some, as we have seen, regardless of the initial hypergamic draw, the attraction fades and the desire for variety and validation kicks in. Not much one can do about it if you have a mate with this type of proclivity. Best to screen for this in courtship, but it is difficult due to masking and " best foot forward" strategies.


You are displaying way too much common sense.... your days are numbered on TAM. The powers that be will have none of that.


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> You are displaying way too much common sense.... your days are numbered on TAM. The powers that be will have none of that.


So far, no problems. I have found that one can last on these sites, regardless of having a contrarian take, if one remains respectful.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Bongo said:


> So far, no problems. I have found that one can last on these sites, regardless of having a contrarian take, if one remains respectful.


Sometimes. Depends on their mood.


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Sometimes. Depends on their mood.


I suppose I have read some respectful ( IMO) debates where a less favored poster gets ousted, now that you mention it.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Kudos to you -- that's just about the finest load of moral cowardice that I've seen of late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really wonder if there is inside of you a part of your brain that knows you react to reason with bullying if the argument does not go your way.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

straightshooter said:


> If you have read any of this Dr. Harley guys articles, and he is considered an EXPERT, his advice to BH upon discovery is to play total Mr. Nice Guy for six months, compliment your WW on how she looks as she goes out with her boyfriends and kiss her ass trying to win her back. How many think that *iOS* great advice or could do it.


OT, but I see auto-correction is your worst enema too.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NoChoice said:


> I find it curious that no mention is made about honor, virtue, integrity and honesty. Once a vow is given is it not a breach of one's honor to break one's word? And this is good? Being a person of integrity is it not self destructive to lie? And this is good? Being an honest person is it not self destructive to practice deceit? And this is good? I can see no good in this at all unless you count only the self serving desire for pleasure. In fact, I see the behavior as inherently destructive for any person of character. Fascinating.


Unfortunately most people don't seem to behave this way.

I do, and my friends do (or they don't remain my friends), but it is rare in the general population.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Acoa said:


> The entire article is in cheaterspeak. "I was in a loveless marriage" (aka, ILYBNILWY), He abused me, (then get out). Disabled as a reason to cheat? (might as well pull the plug too eh?). But my favorite 'healthy reason' to cheat.... 'to improve the marriage'. Wow, just wow. The minduckery is strong with this one.


If there is a "healthy reason to 'cheat' " then FIRST talk about it with your partner....


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Do people here realize that TAM represent as subsection of reality, and the culture here is biased against articles like above? The reality of the outside world consists of a lot of if-then constructions in personal judgement, and a lot of people (as displayed many times on TAM) judge very different if they happen to be the one infatuated with OM/OW. So some nuance would be welcome.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I really wonder if there is inside of you a part of your brain that knows you react to reason with bullying if the argument does not go your way.


LOL... reason?!? That's hilarious.

Your last few posts have been nothing but a bunch of "it would be OK for someone to do this because someone else did that to him or her first".

That's the "reasoning" of a child.

As for bullying...?

Pssh. Please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Bongo (Aug 24, 2016)

Ralph Bellamy said:


> The part where it says an affair can be helpful for a person in an abusive relationship to see what a healthy relationship is like really hacks me off. Anyone can claim their relationship is abusive. Us men are all such brutes and ogres....[/QUOTE
> 
> Cheaters are much more likely to have been the abusive or uninvested spouse in a relationship. The same character traits that allow them to cheat cause this.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> LOL... reason?!? That's hilarious.
> 
> *Your last few posts have been nothing but a bunch of "it would be OK for someone to do this because someone else did that to him or her first".*
> 
> ...


Since you displayed now multiple times an inability to quote correctly I think I should not react anymore to such strange 'logic'.


----------



## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Yeah bullying. Getting personal and nasty when there is not called for. Nothing you would do in the real world though.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since you displayed now multiple times an inability to quote correctly I think I should not react anymore to such strange 'logic'.


Nope. That's OK, though -- keep whatever faux dignity you think you've achieved by limping away.



See_Listen_Love said:


> Yeah bullying. Getting personal and nasty when there is not called for. Nothing you would do in the real world though.


LOL. You'd likely be very surprised. I get as "personal" as I need to get to make my point in any argument.

Then again, it's been my observation that most folks won't cop to even a tacit approval of infidelity, and even in a situation similar to what you've described.

Not in "real world" conversation, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WARNING

If you disagree with a person, disagree with their point. Name calling and personal attacks are against forum rules.

You always have the option of ignoring posts that you strongly disagree with. I could save you a time-out ban. Just saying.

{speaking as a moderator}


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

straightshooter said:


> That's why these so called experts many times do more harm than good.
> 
> This shrink stuff is just a subjective science, not quantitive or measure able. Tell ten of them the exact same story and you'll get 5 different recommendations and opinions.


The shrink stuff works if both sides are committed to fixing the issues. 

Also, my ten years of psychology education and many years of work capturing, measuring quantifying, and analyzing human experiences tend to disagree with your view


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Please PM me the contact info of your pot dealer.


This is bluegrass country, no need for middlemen 

Affairs are alternatives. If those become more prevalent and accepted then the power could shift towards more divorce equality. Not in a year or five, but within a generation certainly.


----------

