# Really? Sex now??



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Long story short, I have lost respect for my husband of 15 years and I am trying to find my way back to him. We are existing right now...for the last month we are talking only about family & household logistics, interacting only when our daughters are involved. It's been this way since I went to our MC solo & had a frank discussion with him about my feelings. He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week. 

I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on. Sunday night I finally went to the doctor and found I have walking pneumonia. I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual. 

It's an understatement to say I feel like I've been hit by a bus. I lost 10lbs these last two weeks. The meds are working however I am still not able to breathe deeply yet. Last night after cooking dinner, cleaning dishes & getting the kids bathed & in bed (all done by me!) I noticed H was starting his weekly sex stalk so I told him my body felt like I was dragging concrete I had to go to bed. H responds "great, guess that leaves nothing for me". I said I was happy to talk but I had to lay down. I said I needed one more day to feel a little better and offered a rain check for tomorrow. He comes to bed and basically does the whole thing again. Tells me he doesn't want a rain check, just tell him yes or no. Again I say no, not tonight, and he storms out of the bedroom in a huff to pout. 

Now this morning the silent cold shoulder continues. I have not asked for a sick day...being a SAHM, I learned there is no calling in sick with him. 

I have walking pneumonia...am I really asking too much when I say "not tonight, but tomorrow"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Red2 (Apr 28, 2013)

No, not asking too much.... He sounds very selfish. I am also a SAHM and whenever I am sick, my husband tells me to go lay down, he'll take care of the dishes and the kiddo.... Does your husband know that you have pneumonia?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

You will not desire sex with him as long as you don't respect him. 

Also, fighting non-stop and silent treatments is not the way to rev up the libido. 

True story.


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

This is a rhetorical question right?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Word


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> Long story short, I have lost respect for my husband of 15 years and I am trying to find my way back to him. We are existing right now...for the last month we are talking only about family & household logistics, interacting only when our daughters are involved. It's been this way since I went to our MC solo & had a frank discussion with him about my feelings. He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week.
> 
> I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on. Sunday night I finally went to the doctor and found I have walking pneumonia. I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual.
> 
> ...


If you do not communicate to him what you are to us, and he does not respect your feelings and work on behaving less selfishly. Around the house, kids as well as respecting your sexual desire or lack there of then your marriage is all but over.
I recommend marriage counseling. Let him know it is either you two learn to respect one another or the marriage will not last. You should have it done in front of a counselor who can more eloquently put a hammer down on his selfishness. 
If my wife was sick, the only thing she would need to do is let me know what flavor of tea she needed. The kids and I would take care of everything else. It is called a partnership.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week.
> 
> I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to figure out why you would even have any interest in having sex with such a selfish man. You get the cold shoulder. You are very ill. (I had pneumonia, I KNOW how bad it is.) 

And he's p.o'd because he can't get a piece? I dunno ... I must be missing something here, because I can't even imagine getting naked and intimate with someone who treats me like sh!t.:scratchhead:


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> Long story short, I have lost respect for my husband of 15 years and *I am trying to find my way back to him.* We are existing right now...for the last month we are talking only about family & household logistics, interacting only when our daughters are involved. It's been this way since I went to our MC solo & had a frank discussion with him about my feelings. He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week.
> 
> I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on. Sunday night I finally went to the doctor and found I have walking pneumonia. I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear you are trying to find your way back to him. Sounds like it's time for him to cleanup his side of the street. Unfortunately, he doesn't realize it yet. He may be a "nice guy".

I'm a recovering "nice guy" (almost a month now) and I use to beg for sex and get huffy when I didn't get it. I'm sure that has contributed to your loss of respect for him. I wish I could be more help but something is going to have to jolt him awake to the seriousness of your feelings toward him.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sounds to me like neither of you feel like you're getting what you need from the relationship. 

If this is his main (only) way of connecting with you, then rejection - even if you're on your deathbed - is going to damage the relationship. No, you're not wrong to feel like crap and not want to play, but if you're trying to revive your relationship, it's important to find some way to salvage his ego. If it were me, I'd have said, "I feel like crap but I know this is important to you. Would you be ok with a quickie even if I'm not much into it?"


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## itscomplicatedforsure (May 30, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Sounds to me like neither of you feel like you're getting what you need from the relationship.
> 
> If this is his main (only) way of connecting with you, then rejection - even if you're on your deathbed - is going to damage the relationship. No, you're not wrong to feel like crap and not want to play, but if you're trying to revive your relationship, it's important to find some way to salvage his ego. If it were me, I'd have said, "I feel like crap but I know this is important to you. Would you be ok with a quickie even if I'm not much into it?"


Ummm, no. Good relationship or bad, no one should have to worry about stoking their spouses ego -or feel like they MUST have sex - when on their deathbed, or just even feeling like they are....


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

KathyBatesel said:


> Sounds to me like neither of you feel like you're getting what you need from the relationship.
> 
> If this is his main (only) way of connecting with you, then rejection - even if you're on your deathbed - is going to damage the relationship. No, you're not wrong to feel like crap and not want to play, but if you're trying to revive your relationship, it's important to find some way to salvage his ego. If it were me, I'd have said, "I feel like crap but I know this is important to you. Would you be ok with a quickie even if I'm not much into it?"


Wow, really while recovering from pneumonia? When would it be okay to say no, only while in hospital?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Awful hard to respect a man that acts like a 2 year old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Really? With pneumonia? You do realize that pneumonia can indeed get the point of requiring hospitalization, right? Which is going to lead to a lot more "rain checks" for sex. 

Sorry, but - while I appreciate that sex might be some people's main way of connecting with their spouse, suggesting that even when someone is "on their deathbed" they should be up it is - I don't even know what that is.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes, he knows I have pneumonia. He took care of our children so I could run to urgent care Sunday night. 

It wasn't exactly meant to be a rhetorical question. We are in the lowest point our marriage has ever been. We definitely have our fair share of problems and communication troubles right now. Yes, we've been in marriage counseling but he has stated that I'm the one with the problems. I have been to our counselor on my own many times to work on my stuff. I asked him 3 weeks ago to go in and work on some of his issues. He told me he would but so far nothing. 

Do I desire sex with him? Absolutely not. I have been engaging (somewhat) willingly because I am trying to find my way back to him (kind of a fake it till you make it), and also because I know it is his primary way of feeling close & connected in our relationship. In 15 years I have probably turned him down a dozen times. I understand the rejection hits him straight in his ego, but at times like this I don't feel I am being unreasonable. He makes me feel as though I am...which then makes me question myself. 

He does feel like he is low on my priority list, and to be frank, he has been lately. I am exhausted. He is not happy within himself and I cannot fill that. I cannot keep going in the same circles we've been arguing for years. I have detached lately and he feels that. We both have our share of resentments. I am working on, and struggling to, set mine aside. We do need to sit down and talk. Our last discussion was before I got sick and I shared a lot of my negative feelings towards him. He told me this morning that life is busy, there will always be "something" I can use as an excuse. True...but I think pneumonia is more than just an excuse. He has this insane ability to turn me inside out, upside down, and arguing with him is beyond baffling. 

He also told me this morning that I need to decide whether to save our marriage, or coexist with the weekly sex benefit (yeah...can't forget THAT one!) for the sake of raising our daughters. I have told him I am unsure of our marriage at this time and I am really working to find my way back. But pressuring me and backing me into a corner is his usual coercion technique.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> *MsStacy said:* He also told me this morning that I need to decide whether to save our marriage, or coexist with the weekly sex benefit (yeah...can't forget THAT one!) for the sake of raising our daughters.


I would take option 3.

He's a horses ass. Completely self absorbed and unreasonable as well. You are very ill and need rest. Tell him when you pass out from exhaustion he can have you any way he wants. Being unconscious during the entire thing would suit you just fine.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

Just because it's my [email protected] A55 way... I'd call hi on his cell. Tell him you were at the Urgent Care and diagnosed with Walking Pneumonia and that you needed to call in sick today for recovery as you're not quite well enough to work yet. 

He treats you like an employee with benefits. Treat him like an employer. Use a little sick leave and let him know about sexual harassment in the work place. Go on the internet and you can probably download a brochure to print and give him. You know. The kind they give at corporate training events. Maybe that would get the message to him.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

A Bit Much & Malpheous...you made me smile today. Thank you  I may just do both of your suggestions!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> Yes, he knows I have pneumonia. He took care of our children so I could run to urgent care Sunday night.
> 
> It wasn't exactly meant to be a rhetorical question. *We are in the lowest point our marriage has ever been.* We definitely have our fair share of problems and communication troubles right now. Yes, we've been in marriage counseling but he has stated that I'm the one with the problems. I have been to our counselor on my own many times to work on my stuff. I asked him 3 weeks ago to go in and work on some of his issues. He told me he would but so far nothing.
> 
> ...


You sound a lot like my wife. Your H and I are two totally different people with different personalities but I believe he's frustrated and doesn't know what to do. I can almost guarantee he doesn't really want to just coexist with you as a sexual partner. I'm also pretty sure he acutely feels your detachment from him. He literally doesn't know what to do and the catch 22 is I don't believe you could tell him what to do even if you knew.

Tell me this, How would you feel and what would you do if your H suddenly started giving you space (sexually); and started really working on himself inside and out? 

Check out my ongoing thread (she said "w/a man I don't love")


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## EuphoricConfessions (Dec 20, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Long story short, I have lost respect for my husband of 15 years and I am trying to find my way back to him. We are existing right now...for the last month we are talking only about family & household logistics, interacting only when our daughters are involved. It's been this way since I went to our MC solo & had a frank discussion with him about my feelings. He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week.
> 
> I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on. Sunday night I finally went to the doctor and found I have walking pneumonia. I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual.
> 
> ...


Just a thought but maybe he saw you "cooking dinner, cleaning dishes & getting the kids bathed & in bed (all done by me!)" and thought you were not that sick and you were able to give him his weekly sex?

Next time you are sick, lay in bed all day and if your husband complains tell him that if he gets sick time, then you do too.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I suggest you buy your husband a relationship book.
The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life

He'll like the title. But, if the problem in your relationship really is that he's not taking care of his business, the book will spell that out fairly clearly.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> I suggest you buy your husband a relationship book.
> The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 | MMSL Primer | By Athol Kay | Married Man Sex Life
> 
> He'll like the title. But, if the problem in your relationship really is that he's not taking care of his business, the book will spell that out fairly clearly.


I have that book...very helpful.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> ... we've been in marriage counseling but *he has stated that I'm the one with the problems.* I have been to our counselor on my own many times to work on my stuff. I asked him 3 weeks ago to go in and work on some of his issues. He told me he would but so far nothing.
> 
> Do I desire sex with him? Absolutely not. I have been engaging (somewhat) willingly because I am trying to find my way back to him (kind of a fake it till you make it) ... *I don't feel I am being unreasonable. He makes me feel as though I am...which then makes me question myself. *
> 
> ...


^^ THIS. ^^

Take back your power. By that, I mean do not allow him to frame your feelings.

Nobody can turn you "inside out, upside down" unless you ALLOW it. Nobody. I don't care if he's the master of the game.

The only power you have is over your thoughts and your mouth. Sure, it's natural to feel hurt, offended, confused, and a million other emotions, in reaction to what your husband says.

But you alone have the power to decide how much rental space he can occupy in your head.

JMO, but I cannot stomach anyone who comes from the position that it's everyone else in the universe who has problems. Problems? - THEM??? 

Nah. They're just fine. It's the rest of the world that is full of screwed-up a$$holes.

The problem with that stance is, it's a lonely place to be.

You are going to counseling. You realize you cannot be the source of your husband's happiness. 

I think the next step in your progression towards deciding whether you stay or leave is to embrace that just as you cannot MAKE him happy, he cannot MAKE you feel tied up in knots.

Again, JMO.


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## BruisedGirl (Apr 4, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I sooo know how this feels. Things like this are the reason for the loss of respect. I haven't been married to my guy for 15 years, but I know what 2 years of it feels like. 

And no, it's not too much to ask for a raincheck. I don't know what else to say without speaking improper. 

Good luck. =/


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on.


Please stop being a martyr and take care of *yourself*! Melody Beatty "Codependent no More" would be a good read for you, I think.

Treating yourself this way is disrespecting yourself and your human limitations. If you don't respect yourself, others won't respect you (your H, your kids).


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> Do I desire sex with him? Absolutely not. I have been engaging (somewhat) willingly because I am trying to find my way back to him (kind of a fake it till you make it), and also because I know it is his primary way of feeling close & connected in our relationship. In 15 years I have probably turned him down a dozen times. I understand the rejection hits him straight in his ego,


As for the sex thing I was like you. The poor baby was never ever deprived of his nookie.

I had such poor boundaries that he twisted my arm into sex right after a miscarriage (using guilt, threats, and entitlement) which was physical and emotional torture for me.

Then one day (after quite a bit of IC) I decided that I was never going to have sex with him again unless *I wanted to*. For me to want to he had to

treat me kindly
spend some time talking and listening to me
a little help in the kitchen while schmoozing me works miracles
wining and dining is helpful

You would not believe the lightning speed of the change from selfish and demanding to romantic and considerate.

The moral of the story: Go on strike and be crystal clear with what it is going to take to get you "in the mood"


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

You will get more of the behavior you reward 
don't reward "selfish jerk" by being a better martyr 

Expectations are premeditated resentments 
(IOW don't EXPECT him to take care of you and be nice to you when you are sick. Your H and mine are self-referenced and suffer from empathic failure. They will never be able to empathize. Insist on taking care of YOURSELF and being nice to YOURSELF so you don't get sick in the first place)


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Blonde said:


> As for the sex thing I was like you. The poor baby was never ever deprived of his nookie.
> 
> I had such poor boundaries that he twisted my arm into sex right after a miscarriage (using guilt, threats, and entitlement) which was physical and emotional torture for me.
> 
> ...



So sex for jumping through constant hoops...

Here boy. 

Roll eyes.

Reminds me of that twilight zone episode... 

"You'd better start thinking happy thoughts"


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> So sex for jumping through constant hoops...




I thought they referred to it as "game" around here.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

itscomplicatedforsure said:


> Ummm, no. Good relationship or bad, no one should have to worry about stoking their spouses ego -or feel like they MUST have sex - when on their deathbed, or just even feeling like they are....





Giro flee said:


> Wow, really while recovering from pneumonia? When would it be okay to say no, only while in hospital?


When is it ok to deny one of your partner's highly valued needs/wants? It's ok anytime you think it is. It's not ok anytime your partner thinks it isn't. 

It is always possible to put our own stuff ahead of our partner's - whether we do this or not depends on how we value our relationship. 

For some people, physical connection IS the way they experience love, so I personally would never do that to my partner if I could find a way to show them that I'll do all I can. At the same time, though, I also wouldn't let him neglect my needs, but I'd also demonstrate this by leaving the relationship. It either works or it doesn't. Otherwise, it's all a sort of "mental masturbation" that keeps us trapped in bad cycles.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> At the same time, though, I also wouldn't let him neglect my needs, but I'd also demonstrate this by leaving the relationship. It either works or it doesn't. Otherwise, it's all a sort of "mental masturbation" that keeps us trapped in bad cycles.


Kathy, I wish you would expound on this as it relates to the OP. I think I know what you are getting at, but I do not want to make assumptions ....


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> For most of my 12 year marriage my husband has told me I am a closed off person, he wants me to communicate more, he wants more intimacy, etc. We went through counseling again this summer. I have been putting myself out there more on the communication front (very uncomfortable for me), namely the deeper issues that I fled from before. Since I thought this had been going pretty well, I've been looking at everyday ways to improve communication and our general connection.
> 
> Tonight we argued and faught...AGAIN! It's becoming quite regular lately. I don't know exactly how to go about this without writting a book, but here are the bullet points...
> 
> ...


This is a quote of yours from *December 2008*. It is currently July 2013.

What has changed since then? What has improved? Anything? How much chaos/upheaval/unhappiness/dysfunction have your kids had to watch just in the last 4.5+ years?

So you have a 'no divorce' policy. Why? Because no divorce is so much better for the kids than witnessing a decades long bloody battle to inflict damage on each other mentally and emotionally? 

All this crap you (you & husband) have been going through and doing to each other for 15 years, *THIS* is EXACTLY what each of your children's marriages will look like. JUST LIKE THIS! Are you two happy about that (as long as they don't divorce)? Or does it make you wretched to think this is how your kids will be for all of their adult relationship lives? They actually believe that *this* is how a marriage works! Even if they don't LIKE it, they will be drawn to this dynamic anyway because it's comfortable in its predictability. Like moths to a flame, they'll be drawn into dysfunctional relationships.

If you won't DIVORCE for yourselves, divorce for your kids. Quit wasting time on MC (which you've gone to on/off for MORE THAN 5 years to no avail) and spend THAT money on IC for your kids (I'm not being sarcastic) and help them to have a chance at happy, productive relationships.

YOU need to read Co-Dependent No More (as Blondie) suggested. Read the chapters and ANSWER THE QUESTIONS at the end of every chapter. You will find it an eye-opening experience.

I hope this is the year you end EVERYBODY'S misery and all of you can move on to calmer, more stable, peaceful lives! You have all earned it.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah - I'm going to stick with my original position that someone's long-term health and physical well-being is a bit more of a consideration than just "your own stuff." Sorry. 

There has to be a basic consideration in a relationship that the other person is indeed, a person with human frailties, including illness - and that occasionally, those human frailties will interfere with "the way someone experiences love" - no matter which Five Love Languages/ His Needs & Her Needs example you are using. Which is unfortunate, but true. Life isn't Twilight, and everyone isn't perfectly healthy and 17 forever. 

As to this ...



> Next time you are sick, lay in bed all day


Uh, if you are a SAHM that's not really an option. Otherwise this will just morph into another "I came home and the kids weren't fed yet" thread in which everyone screams "Bad Mother, Divorce her!?1!"


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> For some people, physical connection IS the way they experience love, so I personally would never do that to my partner if I could find a way to show them that I'll do all I can. At the same time, though, I also wouldn't let him neglect my needs, but I'd also demonstrate this by leaving the relationship. It either works or it doesn't. Otherwise, it's all a sort of "mental masturbation" that keeps us trapped in bad cycles.





Prodigal said:


> Kathy, I wish you would expound on this as it relates to the OP. I think I know what you are getting at, but I do not want to make assumptions ....


The OP says she's trying to get her relationship with her husband back on track, but she feels angry that he was insensitive enough to want sex when she was very ill. She also said that he feels burdened when she has been ill in the past, so she continued to take care of all her other responsibilities despite her illness - caring for the kids, cooking meals, etc. 

If she can do these things, she can lay on her back for ten minutes so he can get his jollies if she's serious about getting back on track. By NOT doing this, she's letting him see that she is still capable of doing everything, so he can only perceive her refusal to have sex as rejection of him. This won't help their relationship, obviously. 

On the other hand, she shouldn't let the marriage do damage to her values, priorities, or beliefs in any long-term way for the benefit of the relationship, either. 

Basically, I'm saying that I find it helpful to honor my husband in all the ways I can, as long as it doesn't cause me actual harm in some way, like damage to my self-esteem, and that the OP might benefit from looking at what her priorities REALLY are.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Long story short, I have lost respect for my husband of 15 years and I am trying to find my way back to him. We are existing right now...for the last month we are talking only about family & household logistics, interacting only when our daughters are involved. It's been this way since I went to our MC solo & had a frank discussion with him about my feelings. He gives me the cold shoulder but still comes to me for sex about once a week.
> 
> I've been fighting a head & chest cold for 2 1/2 weeks. I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have. 15 years of marriage has taught me that getting sick is a huge inconvenience to my husband, so I didn't ask for help with our children I just carried on. Sunday night I finally went to the doctor and found I have walking pneumonia. I should have got a dr note saying I needed rest. Instead, I come home and continue doing everything as usual.
> 
> ...


Sad to see you're married to a 12 year old boy instead of a man.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Wow. 

That's all I have to say at this point.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

What are you doing to help the marriage recover?

Im glad the 2008 post was found and quoted as it sheds light on this situation 

Asking for sex when you have pneumonia and getting mad when it doesn't happen is unreasonable and disrespectful. But it's a symptom of a marriage that is broken - not a problem in and of itself. 

Your husband is trying to connect with you even though he's going about it totally the wrong way. I believe at some point he respected your feelings a lot more than he does now. However, something happened along the way and I'm willing to bet there's more truth than you want to acknowledge to his 2008 statements that felt like he wasn't a priority. 

Did you consistently try to meet his needs back then or did you blow him off, thinking the kids were more important or you just didnt feel like getting into sex for one reason or another? That kind of thing builds resentment and nearly 5 years of resentment puts you in the position you're in now. Both of you have totally lost respect for each other and it shows in your OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I didn't stop & take care of myself like I should have.


FWIW, I thought this one line of introspection was pretty profound, both with regard to the pneumonia and the relationship in general.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you for the advice & insight over the last couple days, I truly appreciate it. I am using my phone right now so cannot respond to each point. 

As I said previously, we have had problems and been in MC on & off for years. We did pretty well during 2011-2012 despite some horrific life experiences. I believed we had become closer through these experiences but it apparently didn't last. This is on me though. My husband lost his job, no...his career, in 2/2012 because he chose to lie instead of own up to a mistake on the job and suffer the consequences. I believe I have a previous post that goes into more detail. Anyway, I sucked it up, completely supported him through a transition, finding a new job and career path. I have listened to all his promises, goals, and plans and have simply asked him to turn his words into actions. After a year of his inactivity I have found that I no longer respect him. Admitting that to myself and our counselor was difficult. So this is the point I am trying to build up from. 

As far as meeting his needs...I totally see that he watched me take care of dinner & our daughters that night and figured I was not "that sick". I asked for help with dishes & with bathing the girls and did not receive any. I understand no one can read my mind, but do I really have to spell out PNEUMONIA + kids + dinner/dishes = I could use some help/I don't feel good?? Had he taken care of the dishes and just one daughter to bed I may have laid on my back for 10 minutes to accommodate his "jollies". (Certainly wouldn't be the first time.) The result was I offered a rain check...the next night I was feeling better, initiated...and he denied me and went to sleep. 

I think it was Blondie that recommended the Codependent No More book. My counselor has also asked me to read it and to make it very obvious to H that I am reading it. I will order the book today and bypass the kindle this time. 

Our no divorce policy is not completely set in stone, but I do not view it as a bad thing. We meant it to be that we will work for our marriage and our family and not use divorce as an easy exit plan. Neither of us would stay together to the detriment of our daughters. They have not been witnessing "hell" for the last 5 years. Even when H and I are at our lowest together, we have dinner as a family. Our daughters do not see us fight terribly. They have witnessed some arguments, disagreements & discussions but we are not hateful & nasty. My parents never argued or fought in front of me and I fully believe that formed the difficulties I have with confrontation & disagreements. I want to teach my daughters that spouses/siblings/people in general can disagree and argue and still love each other. I give him that...H has taught me that having a fight is not the end of the world. 

We had a nice holiday yesterday with family & friends. There was one point he started criticizing me and I shut him down using his own technique. We were able to have a nice time and even enjoy each other so I know it is possible. It's not often his nice/affectionate/helpful side comes out though. His negativity is overwhelming and that is one thing I have asked him to work with the counselor on. He still hasn't made the appt. 

Where do we go from here? I don't know. 5-10 years ago I would have "laid on my back for his jollies" because it is quicker and easier than the ensuing 2 days of him pouting & silent treatment. I'm not doing that anymore. I am not sacrificing myself for the sake of peace. I am voicing that I am unhappy with some of his behaviors and disappointed in some of his decisions. I am finally being truthful with myself that our family security cannot be completely entrusted to him. I am facing some truths and it is leading me down a worrisome path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

It sounds like you have a "tit for tat" expectation of the things that happen in relationships. It really doesn't work that way! 

Whether you give him his ten minutes or not is NOT tied to whether he helped you or not. This doesn't even begin to describe a loving act - what you're describing is a business transaction! 

I recognize that he's not acting in a loving way, but ONE of you MUST break out of this kind of thinking or you're just wasting your time and deceiving yourselves about the possibility of getting your marriage back to good. 

But then your last paragraph comes into play.... If you act loving and he's consistently not responding and continues to be selfish, which means he will NEVER act in a loving, selfless way, then it may be time to consider ending the marriage anyway. It would require a shock/crisis for him to change if that's the case. Just make sure that you are selflessly loving over a significant period of time (at least 60 days with NO expectations of tit-for-tat and scorekeeping!) before deciding this!


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I have definitely been guilty of tit for tat for many years. I do believe, for the most part, that I do not operate that way anymore. I think mostly because I realized it, and because I was always coming up disappointed. No, I don't expect him to help with dishes in order to get what he wants in the bedroom. I was simply trying to state that HAD he helped that night when I was so sick, it could have worked in his favor by me feeling warm towards him for helping, and me feeling less exhausted & ill. I do not believe he has shed his t-f-t thinking though. And I do believe that him denying me the second night for my rain check was meant to be a punishment. 

I think he sees how close I am to leaving, and I sometimes get a glimpse that it has scared him into some action. Just a glimpse here and there though. Apparently it's not sinking in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> My husband lost his job, no...his career, in 2/2012 because he chose to lie instead of own up to a mistake on the job and suffer the consequences. ... I sucked it up, completely supported him through a transition, finding a new job and career path. I have listened to all his promises, goals, and plans and have simply asked him to turn his words into actions.


Been there, done that. My husband lost his through lies, due to his addiction. I know it's tough. But as a woman who came from a similar stance of stand-by-your-man, I found that I was playing the victim card. And feeling more resentful by the minute that my H chose to drink himself out a successful career. I had to come to the realization that his bad choices could not dictate the choices I made regarding my own life.



MsStacy said:


> As far as meeting his needs...I totally see that he watched me take care of dinner & our daughters that night ... I understand no one can read my mind, *but *do I really have to spell out PNEUMONIA + kids + dinner/dishes = I could use some help/I don't feel good??


Just a suggestion, but how about trying, "Okay I see he watched me do xyz, and I should have just said I was too sick to do anything," instead of, "You are right, BUT...." 

Please believe me, I am not trying to tear you down or debate your stance. I have lived it myself.

But you are playing the victim/martyr role here. I could have a Ph.D. in Victim. Honestly.

You don't realize what you are doing, because somewhere along the line, you were programmed to behave this way.

Bring it up in IC. Your marriage may be salvageable. Maybe it's not. You can only change yourself.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal, I'm sorry you've been down the job path with H. I don't wish I could say it was due to an addiction...because Lord knows we don't need to throw that into the mix...no, my husband is just a liar. There's no trying to hide away an addiction or affliction of some kind, simply his low self image and self esteem. There is no amount of "words of affirmation" or loving gestures that will ever fill the hole he has inside, and he is so far unwilling to work on it with a professional. He gives everyone the 'poor me' saying his mother has called him a pathological liar, but quite frankly, it's true. I am coming...slowly...to the same realization that his choices do not dictate mine.

You have a great point. I absolutely do not want to be a martyr and would despise being viewed as a victim. For most our marriage I was a "right" fighter. I don't want to be right anymore. I certainly don't want to me a victim/martyr and I see how my words paint that. I will most definitely bring it up in IC, and I start watching my words and my thinking for that tell tale "But". Thank You.


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## agreenbough (Oct 1, 2012)

If I'm really feeling like ****-which happens, as I sometimes have horrible bladder infections, my husband can take those "10 minutes" to take care of his own needs. That's really not too much consideration to ask for. A "man" who insists on making his spouse feel worse for a few minutes of what he can take care of himself is too selfish and immature to be in a relationship with another human being. No way in hell am I having sex when I have a uti. He can pout all he likes.


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

If you have walking pneumonia, and your husband knows it and still throws a sh!t fit about not having sex even though you've offered him sex the very next day...he is an idiot. And a selfish idiot at that.

I never turn my husband down for sex, but there are reasonable exceptions I can think of. Being very ill is one of them.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Generally, I agree with Kathy, but I think she's wrong here @ your sex life.

You said "no" 15 times in 15 years according to your accounting. It's OK to say "no" when you are sick.

I see more of a bending over backwards and pretzeling yourself in order to please him. You said you initiated the very next day after turning him down because you have pneumonia. Out of love and desire? Nah, probably out of guilt and worry over his poor fragile man ego that he didn't get any when you were so ill. He turned you down. What a guy! 

That can change to sex when BOTH feel mutual love and desire. See my post somewhere above.

On this 



> PNEUMONIA + kids + dinner/dishes = I could use some help/I don't feel good??


The old me would have been the martyr like you. The new me, I would say to H "you are in charge, I'm sick and I'm going to lay down" and I would go lay down in bed and shut the door (and lock it if necessary).


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I like the "new you" Blonde. I desperately wish that was something I would have said. I often don't realize the martyr type behavior I exhibit until its too late. I learned...before children...that being sick is such an inconvenience to my husband, that I no longer even think of stopping and asking for help. As a consequence, I no longer care or dote on him when he is ill. Saying that out loud (or typing) is a very sad realization. I am recovering, and now he's getting sick. This is where my tit for tat subconscious comes into play. 

I truly appreciate those in my corner ...Blonde, SouthernMiss, agreennough, etc. it's been many years that I've been told I'm cold & selfish...sex when I feel like sh!t shouldn't be a problem in a true partnership.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> ...sex when I feel like sh!t shouldn't be a problem in a true partnership.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also true. 

May I ask you why you're trying to make this relationship work? It doesn't sound like there are two people working on it. And it doesn't sound like you two are real compatible. 

Of course, I've only seen this thread...


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I agree with Kathy on this. 

Sometimes we can try and try and try. But we can only try so much and then we have to look at the reality of our situation.

Submitted for your consideration: Have you ever thought that your husband is addicted to lying? Do you think he lies because he is afraid of your reactions, or do you think he would lie regardless?

All of us want our marriages to work.

But sometimes, no matter what we do to resuscitate them, it doesn't work.

JMO, but I see it as a dynamic that stinks, but is familiar for you. You try harder, work harder, do whatever you need to do to suck it up and fix it. V-I-C-T-I-M. 

I did crazy stuff to prove to myself that I could suck up anything and survive. What did I prove?

I proved I'm codependent, broken, and was hanging onto no-win relationships.

That may not be you. Only you can determine WHAT IS. Just beware of WHAT IF. To elaborate, WHAT IF thinking is magical, and goes something like this: "What if he gets counseling? What if he sees the light? What if we can go back to the way we were when we were dating and first got married?"

WHAT IF keeps us stuck. You have to look at WHAT IS. And right now, WHAT IS looks pretty bad.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> it's been many years that I've been told I'm cold & selfish...


Here is a little piece of information which was a HUGE and helpful revelation for me.

The third MC session (@2004) the MC pointed out to me repeatedly throughout the session instances of my husband projecting and deflecting.

I think the above is projection. Your husband is cold and selfish and he is projecting it onto you.

Soooo, instead of getting defensive and angry at my husband for spewing such hate, I now have a window into his self-talk.

Pay attention to what you say to him too. I've caught myself projecting. Now I make an effort use positive affirmations when negativity spews out of him. So, to the "cold selfish" comment I would say something like:

"I'm sorry you feel that I am cold and selfish but I disagree with your opinion. I try to be the best wife and mother I can be and I feel that have been loving and sacrificial (to a fault sometimes  )."


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> ... it's been many years that I've been told I'm cold & selfish...sex when I feel like sh!t shouldn't be a problem in a true partnership.


Uh, okay. So what ideas do you have, if any, to resolve this situation? JMO, but from what you are posting it sounds like a crummy marriage. And it sounds like it's been kinda crummy for you for quite awhile.

Life it way too short to settle for crummy.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes, I believe he is addicted to lying. I never thought of the word addicted in that manner, but he lies when there is no reason to, to get out of doing something he doesn't want to do, to cover up from past lies or misdeeds, probably because he doesn't want to face or is afraid of reactions from me and others...mostly I think he lies because he thinks so little of himself that he believes the world sees him in the same warped way he views himself and he's trying to look better and build himself up. Sometimes I think he lies because it's such a habit he doesn't even realize it. 

Why am I trying to make this work? I truly do care about him as a person, as the father of my children, as the man I vowed my life to. Someone mentioned above that I stay out of comfort...that hit me over the head hard. Yes, I stay because it is what I know. I am very much a creature of routine, schedule, comfort levels. It's sad to look at it that way. I also think I may have a codependency issue...as mentioned here and by my counselor. I ordered the book last night. Funny....it was available in a pack with 3 other codependency titles by the same author so I bought them all. Maybe I need the sledge hammer. 

Yes, life is too short to settle for crummy. I just turned 40...how did that happen??? Looking back I can see so many things differently now. Am I rewriting history because I am unhappy right now? How does one determine that? 

I guess my answer for the moment is that I am staying because I owe my daughters that for right now. Until I am 100% sure I have turned every stone, tried everything within my ability and cleaned up my side of the street, I can't turn their lives upside down. 

So...I'm off to start reading my books. I am an OCDish neat freak...and I am going to make my side of the street sparkle.


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## stevesvws (May 13, 2013)

My wife and I were kinda that way for a while. Tomorrow will be our 14 yr wedding anv. 

I had no idea how to fix me or my wife and nothing ever really got resolved. sex 2 days a week for a while but felt more like I was begging. 

Get marriage counseling together, it's working for us. Do it now before you 2 have big troubles. 

I'm my life 2 kids, and having bosses who are jerks puts a great strain on your lives. 

My w and I grew away from each other in some respects. I was the nice guy who stopped going to the gym, working etc. to give her space. And let her go to the gym. Well, that didn't work well. 2 months in, she cheating on me with the trainer. Nice huh? 

Well I found out immediately and she fessed up. we cried, loathed hated etc and then went into counseling. It's been 4 months and things are going ok. 

My point is you two are having troubles and if you want to have a better marriage, get the counseling now. If you two work on it, your lives will be so much better you will wonder why you waited so long.

He sounds like the nice guy who is trying to be perfect and hiding behind his ego with lies. If he could break out of that, your lives could be so good. I was just a bit shy and tried to be perfect at everything. It just doesn't work, at all.

Counseling, the no more mr nice guy, married man sex life book and the five love languages has really really helped me to become a much better person. 

I was never mean at all, just too nice and always trying to please my wife. I look back and realize i lost respect for myself and she lost respect for me. 

Just back to the part that counseling an reading can help. If he could respect your time being sick, you may respect his help so much, you may even want sex with him straight through every day for a week once you get better. It's possible and a good sales pitch for him to go to counseling or read the books that have been suggested.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

MsStacy said:


> Yes, I believe he is addicted to lying. I never thought of the word addicted in that manner, but he lies when there is no reason to, to get out of doing something he doesn't want to do, to cover up from past lies or misdeeds, probably because he doesn't want to face or is afraid of reactions from me and others...mostly I think he lies because he thinks so little of himself that he believes the world sees him in the same warped way he views himself and he's trying to look better and build himself up. Sometimes I think he lies because it's such a habit he doesn't even realize it.
> 
> Why am I trying to make this work? I truly do care about him as a person, as the father of my children, as the man I vowed my life to. Someone mentioned above that I stay out of comfort...that hit me over the head hard. Yes, I stay because it is what I know. I am very much a creature of routine, schedule, comfort levels. It's sad to look at it that way. I also think I may have a codependency issue...as mentioned here and by my counselor. I ordered the book last night. Funny....it was available in a pack with 3 other codependency titles by the same author so I bought them all. Maybe I need the sledge hammer.
> 
> ...


Your description of your husband sounds like a "nice guy". I think Steve's post was great insight into what can happen for you all. My concern is the codependency books you're about to start reading. I'm going to check that book out too because I have a feeling my wife has past through that book as part of her journey. 

I don't know if you scanned through any of my thread but in one part of her diary she asked God for endurance to help her follow through with a divorce from me...I'm sure, because of the years we've been unhappy, she could see my current transformation as just another short lived manipulative attempt to get her back on my side. She can't possibly know that I have really changed my life for the better.

I hope that even if you decide to "free yourself" from your unhappy marriage that you keep some small window of redemption/hope for the relationship between you and your husband. Some of us husbands may never get it before it's too late and some of us may get it in the nick of time.
I feel for him because he still doesn't know even with all your actions and words you've said to him. I believe he wants things to be better; he just doesn't know how.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Bagdon, it took me a while, but I read through your post. I do see some similarities. It sounds like you are doing great. I will pray for your family.

As far as being a nice guy...I'm not so convinced. Yes, I believe he wants to keep our family together. I don't know, it seems less that he's a nice guy, and more that he believes I'm the one with all the problems. I've been to our counselor on my own to work on my stuff. I've asked him to talk with her and work on some of his...he told me he would, but still hasn't even made the appointment. He doesn't believe in himself and most of our problems seem to stem from that...the lying, judgmental behavior, and his overwhelming need for affirmation and admiration. I don't know, I wish he would work on himself, foster his own relationships and not need me so much. 

Steve...we have been in marriage counseling on & off for over 5 years. BOTH spouses have to do the work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevesvws (May 13, 2013)

Agreed. Both parties have to do the work. Otherwise, nothing gets done. 

Didn't realize you both had been in marriage counseling for an period of time. Maybe Try a different counselor and both parties need to work together.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Ms Stacy,

I would NEVER give the "Nice Guy" book to my H to read. He would take it as permission to be selfish, entitled, and harsh  

However, you would benefit from it. You are *Mrs* Nice Guy. 

Here's a link


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Blonde said:


> Ms Stacy,
> 
> I would NEVER give the "Nice Guy" book to my H to read. He would take it as permission to be selfish, entitled, and harsh
> 
> ...


Is that how you interpret NMMNG? Well, as a guy I completely related to it and it's doing wonders for my self improvement. But then you of all people should know your husband.


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## stevesvws (May 13, 2013)

Have you read the book? I did and learned a lot which helped me big time. 

No sense of entitlement, permission to be selfish or harsh just a better understanding of myself was achieved. I had never looked into myself that deeply until after reading it. 

The best part was that I am no longer trying to please everyone and trying to be perfect for everyone else. That's not good and I have been doing that unknowingly for years.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

bagdon said:


> Is that how you interpret NMMNG? Well, as a guy I completely related to it and it's doing wonders for my self improvement. But then you of all people should know your husband.


We tried some self help books. He didn't use them to look in the mirror but cherry picked things to bolster his opinion that he is right, I am wrong, and all problems in the marriage are my fault. (((((((sigh)))))))

NMMNG would have been a DISASTER if my H had read it

I don't think you do that, bagdon, but I can think of at least one TAM poster who I perceive as doing exactly that with NMMNG (and I see handwriting on the wall for disaster in his marriage).

Shrug. I spose some people are here seeking validation for denial? And they will find validation for denial, even in a self help book.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

stevesvws said:


> The best part was that I am no longer trying to please everyone and trying to be perfect for everyone else. That's not good and I have been doing that unknowingly for years.


^^This is what Ms Stacy has been doing which is why she might find the book insightful *for herself*

...and she can be the judge of how her husband would take the NMMNG message. I've seen women on here testify that it had great affects on their husband. For *my* H, it would be a disaster. 

The history with my H is the opposite of "people pleasing". He's more oppositional defiant. With my H if he knows I really want something, and he has power over it, he will withhold it (with the exception of sex). What I have had to do is grow up, stop helplessly depending on him, and take care of my own needs.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I totally agree with you Blonde. While NMMNG is a book that has undoubtedly helped many, I believe it would be a disaster for my H. He would interpret it as permission to continue, and possibly build upon, his selfishness. He's not the one with any problems, just ask him. After I finish the books I have lined up I may check it out for myself. I am a people pleaser, although I am in much better control if that lately. I've been thinking lately that maybe I need to be the one doing a 180. Hmmmm....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read His Needs Her Needs yet? If not, get it today.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I am a people pleaser, although I am in much better control if that lately. I've been thinking lately that maybe I need to be the one doing a 180. Hmmmm....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First, if you haven't read it, read The Dance Of Anger to help with the people pleasing - easy read but powerful. Teaches you how to say no without ticking people off.

Second, you most definitely DO need to be the one doing the 180. He mistreats you because you allow it.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

The selfishness of some men (and women) never ceases to amaze me.
You need to start pleasing yourself first! Your needs and wants matter as much as the people you want to please.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you turnera. You have responded to my posts for years and I find your advice quite helpful. My counselor has asked me to read the codependent book so as soon as I finish that I will start your recommendations. I'm afraid with the summer schedule of my oldest daughter, and my 22 month old with me 24/7, it's going to take me awhile to get through all these books. I may just loosen up and let a little bit of the housekeeping slide. 

Memento, I appreciate the support. I'm afraid I have let Hs selfishness (and other needy behaviors) dictate over my feelings and needs for so long I don't even think about putting myself first. Assertiveness is something I am working on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The dust will always be there; your kids will not.


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