# update--still confused as ever



## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

copy and pasted original post, couldnt get link to copy right. But since that week we've had a few more talks the first leading him to say just give him til new years-tax time he'll have the $ he'll move out and get out of my hair. But in the same conversation crying about how he wont get to see the baby grow up because he'll be working so much just to make it separately and how his dad left at our sons age and he'll just be all messed up. And of course it all falls on my shoulders because its my decision. We've come to this part a few times the past few years, this is the closest so far but like any other time I guess I just let it all get calm again and Im suppose to be giving him more time. But just like any other time, the first week of this I feel all hopeful but after that I just dont feel good about the decision. Like I lost a lot of respect I had for him after the first time he hit me and even if it doesnt happen again I dont know how to get that back and I dont look at him the same. Just like any song that touches on the subject im in tears instantly like its just happened. Im having a horrible time figuring out if my heart just really isnt there enough anymore even if he were to be ok from here on out. So then I just feel like a cold terrible B*** for feeling this way. Like what if he did get better. And God Bless no matter how much hes hurt me WTF is it so hard to sit there and watch him cry and hurt and not take back the things ive already said about not being in love with him and if i had the money a long time ago I would have left?? but I just cant ignore this feeling I always have left months after Ive decided to stay. And now I feel that Im in a race to figure all of this out, like he said tax time, we'd have some $ to actually make it happen so like I need to figure it out and find my balls by then if thats what i decide I need to do. I love him so much in every other way for everything we've built together and the time spent, but Im just not sure if its enough to stay. First he was all ok ill finally do counseling but he doesnt believe in it or the $ spent on it. Then the next morning hes hugging me saying just give it some more time...just some more time... my head just wont stop spinning.. 

"We've been married 11 years. We have a 10,7, & 1 1/2 yo. We also suffered a loss of our third child, still birth at almost 9 mths pg, he would be 4 yo. I am 30, him 34. We met and immediately were together ever since. I can honestly say its been true love from the start and a very great love. But since the beginning I have to admit I have seen his temper and anger to the point if he was really diagnosed he would at least be bipolar. The stresses of daily life, finances, trying to raise children on just one income have certainly built in him and I have watched his temper grow and grow over the years. We've both made our mistakes, mine insisting on fixing finances and small things myself instead of consulting with him for help because of his anger and apparent inability to handle things. I feel it is half a cop out excuse for me not to haven been honest about these things but admit the true fear I feel from having to deal with him. Over the years dealing with his anger is like walking on eggshells and I see it in the children now so I know its not just me being oversensitive like he is fond of saying. Its escelated over the years to the past 4 being physically abusive. The first time he ended up punching me in the face like 5 times, blood was everywhere in the truck. Next time I was afraid of telling him when I hit a shopping cart in a parking lot causing a dent and he smacked me so hard it knocked me clean out on the ground. Another time we were arguing and he pushed me so hard across the kitchen I was in the air and put my hand back to catch myself and broke my wrist. The last time was last Jan., so almost a year ago, arguing and he slapped me, I finally called the police this time and he was in jail over the weekend. smaller times before these were grabbing me or pulling me back by my hair while walking away.

As rediculous as it all sounds, and I feel so rediculous for even saying im still here today, good times are terrific. Hes a very hard worker and great father other than the temper he lets them see. Im not afraid of him in a physical sense despite all ive gone through with him, in fact I know he would crumble without me. But I feel he would make it hard if I did follow through with leaving. This past weekend we argued a lot and he asked if I had the money would I have left him a long time ago. He also asked if I was still in love with him. As much as hes hurt me over the years it is still so hard to say any of these things that would hurt him. I stood there in silence, the answers to these questions right at my lips but so hesitant to actually release. But my non response and the way I was looking at him he knew the answers. I would have left him and the things hes done to me have killed a lot of the feelings I once had for him.

At first he took my phone, locked it wouldnt give it back, hes done this a couple times before during a big blow up. By the end of the weekend he gave it back I should not give up on him yet. Hitting rock bottom for him was going to jail. I cried and screamed at him that hurting me the first time should have been enough, and so that if I had called the police on him the first time would it have never happened again?? Only afraid of the police is that the only reason?? He feels if I leave him now after hes turned this leaf and has done so good the past year I would be pulling the rug out from under him and that I should give him more time. That I am giving up on him too easily. Guiltful things now like is it better for the kids to grow up in a split up house or with a father that is trying. Says he will never lay his hands on me again, he might get mad and yell and be loud but hes working to lessen that as well. I assured him that I do in fact love him and I want him to get better no matter what because the children still need him to regardless of what happens to us. Most of the time I feel like even if he wasnt violent anymore, just loud and angry, Ive just grown away from that type of person and I do not want that kind of person or energy around me anymore, its still very stressful even without hitting and im just tired. So many other times I still see the love we have and how things could have been had he not had these issues. Half of me is done, half of me doesnt want to let go of the love and bond that we started with and still is there to a point. My head goes in circles everyday over this, sometimes I look at him and see that angry person and the things hes done, other half the time I see that man that I fell in love with. I feel like I am just going to crack, I dont know what to do. Then being a stay at home mom and seeing the little faces of my children depending on me to make the right decision. I couldnt live with making the wrong one...

Hes talking and making me feel like Im being unreasonable for wanting out now. Like I said, things like "your going to pull the rug out from under me now" and " are you really going to give up on me" and plenty other things while he was stating his case. Making sure I feel bad when its all started and everyones world is falling apart because of a separation, it was my decision and my fault. I feel that I have been plenty strong enough to have hung on this long through everything else, now I just need the reassurance and strength that I can press on and let go of the good things that were and move to the next level. Considering we dont have enough money to split up, I told him hed work days & I would work nights and we wouldnt have to see each other and go from there. I really dont know where or how else to start."


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

Im really afraid to finally make that move, I guess because of how big it is and everything it entails. How do I get over that?!?


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

*** update**--still confused as ever*

Since I let our last conversation about him leaving just die down a few weeks ago, leaving him Ill have to bring it back up again on my own, as opposed to waiting for another blow up. Im not afraid of him in this aspect, regarding leaving, and he has expressed that if this is what I truly want he wont stand in my way and even offered that just giving him until tax time and he will have the $ he needs to actually leave the house. I do believe him however I also know that none of that is guaranteed until it is actually seen. Regardless, I feel that Im in a time pinch now, agreeing with him that tax time is the best time for all of this to take place and it needs to be addressed before other plans for that $ are made. that being said I am terrible with initiating conversations, especially heavy ones like this. ok once we're in the middle of it, but thats why I need to find some sort of "ice breaker" I have made a letter that I could give him to start things off. Considering we've already talked about all of these things and theres nothing much more to say except Ive decided to make all of those prior things stick. And it is also starting off as a response to a note he left on my phone when he took it from me the last time after I said I wasnt in love with him anymore. Please read and see what you think?? Actually these past couple weeks Ive found more confidence than ever in what I need to do. Realizing that Ive been going around in circles for a few years second guessing my feelings and decisions only to come back to this same conclusion of what I need to do so I dont want to wait for another blowup or anything. the more time that goes by its harder to just sit here and not do anything now knowing confidently how I really feel.

“damn ya just broke my heart”. You broke my heart every time you put your hands on me. It killed me every time you did it, and it ate away at my feelings for you more and more each time. Sometimes when I look at you I see the man I fell in love with, sometimes I just see the angry person and the things that you’ve done. And Im disappointed in myself, for a lot of things, lying because I was afraid to tell you things, that’s not the person I am. Disappointed for feeling weak for still being here. Part of being here is for not wanting to give up on us, on you, part is for being too afraid to stand up to you or to be alone. I guess that’s what co-dependency is, and that’s an issue within myself. I went straight from my mothers to here, and Ive never had to do it on my own especially with 3 little faces depending on me to do the right thing. And its allowed me to live and try to cope with all of this the best I can even if it means I get kicked around from time to time. Even without the physical aspect, yelling and blowups and just sounding hateful about things sometimes, still leads you to feel like your walking on eggshells. It wears you out more than youll ever understand. The times you’ve gotten mad at me and took my phone, keys, stripped me of all of my power to function as an adult, as a mother, your wife, being made to feel like such a small insignificant person, that was just another way to knock me down. No one should ever be made to feel like that. Its all so damaged and it eats and eats away at me. If either of the girls were to get in a relationship like this what would you say to them? Or if our son started treating some girl like this what would you say to him? You need to continue to strive to do better, no matter what becomes of us, because they need you to and you need to for yourself so you can truly be happy. Every single time I see all of this in you all I can think is somewhere deep in you, you just aren’t happy. My head goes in circles every day over it all. Even as much as you’ve hurt me, I still feel so guilty for having to do this and hurt you because I do love you completely and truly, you shouldn’t have been so careless with us. I feel like Ive done pretty good hanging on through this as long as I have. So maybe I am strong in some ways, but I don’t want to be strong in this way anymore, Im just so tired and worn out. Even if the hitting is through, if your just loud and angry, Ive grown away from that type of person and I don’t want that kind of person or energy around me anymore. Ive thought so many times, maybe what if he didn’t do it again, is it just my inability to forgive him for it that’s getting in the way?? But the more time goes by the more I realize I just cannot forgive you until I m away from you, until I don’t have to see you everyday reminding me of everything that’s happened. Im sorry if all of that sounds dramatic or something but it is my reality. Every part of me that’s been strong enough on the outside to still be here has been at the same time swallowing all this down keeping it inside just to stay this strong outwardly. But its taken its toll on me and I have absolutely nothing left. Everytime we’ve gotten this close to this, then I decide to back off, the first week or so Im relieved, the stress of it is gone, Im hopefull. But after this short period of time all of the same thoughts and feelings I had come right back, and I cant ignore them anymore. Im sorry, but yes, if the financial aspect of being alone wasn’t so scary and I had all the money in the world I would have left before. But not out of love, I still love you very much, but its just so damaged."


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

??


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Is there a question in there?

Sounds like you won't be able to forgive him...so do you both a favor and divorce.

He should have never laid hands on you in anger.


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

No, I'm more than sure & confident of my decision now... & not afraid of his reaction when actually leaving. Just with having to bring it up again to let him know what we talked about before still needs to stand, hence my "ice breaker" comment & how to initiate this final "it's over" conversation. My nerves are still a wreck with it all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Cosmic, like Trying2Figure, I am unsure of whether you are seeking only validation of what you already know or, rather, are seeking additional insights into what you are dealing with. Assuming the latter is true, I will share with you some of my experience with an abusive spouse.


cosmicblu said:


> if he was really diagnosed he would at least be bipolar.


Perhaps so. The behavior you describe, however, does not sound like bipolar. It is far closer to the traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). These traits include the lack of impulse control, temper tantrums, verbal abuse, inability to trust for extended periods, blaming you for every misfortune, and black-white thinking. Moreover, the rages and mood changes you describe are not the slow starting, long-lasting changes that are typical of bipolar. Instead, they are the event triggered rages that are characteristic of BPDers, who can flip from adoring you one minute to hating you the next. Indeed, because that flip is event triggered, it usually happens in ten seconds in response to some trivial thing you do or say. (But, of course, he could suffer from both BPD and bipolar traits.)


> Since the beginning I have to admit I have seen his temper and anger


If he is a typical BPDer (i.e., person with strong traits), such traits would have started showing at the end of the infatuation period -- typically at 3 to 6 months into the relationship. The infatuation would have held his two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay for that long. Then they would return, allowing you to trigger them with harmless statements. Because you never knew what might trigger one fear or the other, you were always very careful what you said around him.


> Over the years dealing with his anger is like _walking on eggshells_.


That's why the #1 best selling BPD book (targeted to the spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.


> The first time he ended up punching me in the face like 5 times, blood was everywhere in the truck.


If your H is a BPDer, you've been living with a spouse having the emotional development of a four year old -- as I did for 15 years. That is the age at which some trauma (or inherited sensitivity) caused his emotional development to stop. Clearly, it is dangerous to be living with a four year old who has the intelligence, cunning, and body strength of a full grown adult.


> As ridiculous as it all sounds... good times are terrific.


No, not ridiculous at all to those of us who have fallen in love with a BPDer. When BPDers are good, they are very VERY good. The passion and romance and fireworks are beyond anything I've ever seen in a movie or a romance novel. This good treatment occurs when the BPDer is "splitting us white." As you know, he can be "splitting us black" a minute later. This is the way BPDers behave. Their problem is not being _bad_ but, rather, being _unstable_. But, either way, the end result is the same: you will often be abused and treated badly.


> My head goes in circles everyday over this ... I feel like I am just going to crack.


If you have been living with a BPDer for 11 years, that is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for making the SPOUSE feel like she may be losing her mind. Indeed, therapists see far more spouses and partners coming in -- fearful that they are going crazy -- than they ever see BPDers. 

This ability of BPDers to create a crazy feeling in their partners is so well known among the ex-partners that they have given it a name: "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie _Gaslight, _in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his young bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to get her institutionalized, allowing him to run off with her family jewels. One of his tricks to turn the house gaslights down a tiny bit every day, all the while claiming that he is able to see and read just fine.


> Ive thought so many times, maybe what if he didn’t do it again, is it just my inability to forgive him for it that’s getting in the way?


The primary thing keeping us caregivers in these toxic marriages is our mistaken belief that, if we can only figure out what we are doing wrong, we can restore the spouse to that wonderful person we saw at the very beginning. Sadly, it is an impossible task to do so. Moreover, that wonderful "soul mate" that you saw at the beginning was largely an illusion -- due to a process called "mirroring" that I describe in many of my other posts. If you would like to read more about it and the other BPD traits, an easy place to start is my discussion in GTRR's thread. My posts there begin at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. If you find that information helpful, you may also want to read the discussion in Blacksmith's thread. It starts at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-complicated-marriage-dynamic.html#post358403. If those discussions ring a bell, I would be glad to discuss it further with you here or to point you to good online resources. Meanwhile, please start taking care of _yourself_, Caregiver.


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

Yes, some validation, I guess with the way to bring it up. The other times in the past its been brought up was in the middle of a blow up and finally towards the end of the conversation my true feelings finally come out. Ive finally been coming to terms with being ok not forgiving him and truly moving on. I went straight from my moms to living with him at 18 so this has been my life and not working having any leg up but now with 3 little faces that would depend on me being able to make it. Scared the crap out of me for so long. He knows what hes done to me so at that part of the conversation he just goes into this depression stance and crying which always makes me forget its just truly his bed that hes made and I shouldnt feel bad for this. So I let it go and we're suppose to be "trying" again. But I cant ignore how I really feel anymore, Ill never be happy with my life until I make this change for myself. But of course I have no voice with him, always afraid of my words Im terrible with bringing up any sort of serious conversation about anything. I feel like he takes my voice. 

Those posts do ring true for me. And some backstory, after I read up on that BPD, certainly more that than bipolar! I didnt find out this part til just a few weeks ago, and he said he didnt think it was relevant or important to ever share...really??! I know his father left them when he was about 5 took on another woman and her 2 girls which over the years he treated as golden and being critical of every decision of my husband growing up. turns out he saw his dad beat the crap out of his mom and even *excuse- pissed on her wtf?? Said his mom has kicked him in the balls.....he didnt think any of that was relevant?? I didnt find out he beat the crap out of his mom years ago until well after we were married. So thinking about all of this now and feeling like :scratchhead: duhh... how the hell could I have survived this long here with this much of my sanity intact?! I still feel like Ive got a pretty good head on my shoulders and fighting off depression for sure. But I feel like Ive always been able to see my true situation just letting the fear of the unknown and the fear of leaving paralyze me.


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

Also mini facts- I know hes hurt himself at a teen and still has the scars, attempted suicide as a teen. About 6 mths into dating he tried to chase me away telling me he wasnt any good and hes too jealous, trust issues and not a good person for me. But of course im stubborn and wouldnt hear any of it. Ive never felt comfortable telling him things. Which has led to me not being honest about the bills, I try to fix these things myself without having to tell him until the problem is too big and I have to ask for his help. Which only feeds on his mistrust and he says all these problems are my fault and at least 2/3 of the bigger blowups are because of these things. I feel terrible for ever not being honest, but those are the only times and I try to explain how I go to do it that way instead of SOMEhow conquring my fear of talking to him and pointing out that he knows thats not who I truly am, I wasnt this person before and only feel conditioned to react that way out of learning how to fear/deal with him over the years. Im envious when I see other people who can seem to tell eachother anything at all and truly be a team and get through things together. Im so afraid to go through my whole life not knowing that sort of relationship.. only this fear.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cosmicblu said:


> I feel terrible for ever not being honest, but those are the only times


Please stop beating yourself up for having been too scared to tell him the truth a few times. Granted, it did not help his trust situation and you should avoid lying if you can. But it almost certainly did not matter as to the current situation. A man with strong BPD traits is incapable of trusting his spouse for any extended period. Without years of treatment, he just cannot do it. He never learned to trust in childhood.

My exW, for example, was convinced I was telling her lies nearly every week -- never mind that I never told her one lie in 15 years. Hence, the lies that your H _imagined _you were telling him were just as real to him as the few that you actually did. He therefore likely would be just as convinced of your lying regardless of what you had done. This is one reason that BPD is called a "thought disorder." It distorts the person's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

If you are determined to stay married to your H -- which I am not recommending -- you should at the very least get help from the hundreds of other folks who are dealing with exactly the same issues. I therefore strongly recommend that you participate (or at least lurk) at BPDfamily.com. It is the largest BPD site targeted solely to the spouses and partners of BPDers. It is so large that it has 8 separate message boards, one of which is "Raising a Child with Someone with BPD." Another is "Leaving." I believe you could benefit greatly from the wisdom and experiences that are so freely shared on those two message boards. And, if you want to read some horror stories, you can take a look at the "Staying" message board at that site. 

Finally, I advise strongly against telling your H that you suspect he has strong BPD traits. If your suspicions are correct and he does, he almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you. Because the projection protects his fragile ego from having to deal with too much reality, it occurs at the subconscious level. He therefore will consciously believe that you are the one with strong BPD traits. So, instead of saying anything about BPD or handing him a book on BPD, it is _far better_ to simply encourage him to see a clinical psychologist. Even the psych would likely wait several years before ever revealing the name of his traits to him (for several reasons I've discussed in other posts). Please take care, Cosmic.


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

haha omg isnt that the truth! Trivial instances where he insists he knows a persons true motives no matter how well he knows the person or if the situation pertains to us or not. And no amount of evidence will sway his thinking. Of course his thinking is that the persons motives are nothing good at all. Bringing back to the handful of mine where he blows up and insists hes gonna "find out what ive really been doing" saying hes gonna ask the neighbors like theyve seen a gang of random people here when hes not home. I can really only laugh at that point and start getting our neighbors that we have on speed dial at the ready pushing my phone in his face saying go ahead. "once a liar always a liar" he loves to say so basically at this point I cant do right anyway, of course I can flip all of that saying "once a hitter always a hitter" no matter how much he begs and pleads that he'll never do it again. And this is where Im at, its too damaged, and certainly too toxic to ever work for the better. Ive seen his dad and older brother with these traits and finally in their 40's and 50's starting to calm down some. But Im just 30!! I have no resources left within myself to wait that much longer for him to hopefully calm down some.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

cosmicblu said:


> Ive seen his dad and older brother with these traits and finally in their 40's and 50's starting to calm down some. But Im just 30!! I have no resources left within myself to wait that much longer for him to hopefully calm down some.


Even if he does eventually calm down some, having to deal with 70% of "terrible" is not much better than the 100%. Moreover, he likely will leave you after about 15 years anyway -- before the calming period arrives (if it ever does). That's what my exW did to me. As the years go by, a BPDer typically becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make him happy. As you've already seen for 11 years, he blames ever setback and misfortune on you. In his mind, he is still "the victim" he felt he was in childhood.


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## cosmicblu (Oct 18, 2011)

Well i finally went through with it today. of course he admits what hes done but wont grasp the impact all of these things have had over the years has had on me. insisting that im ruining the kids lives and im just a spiteful cold hearted *****. that im giving up on him too easily. he doesnt understand why after hes done ok for 10 mths, why now. i tried again to explain how my head goes in circles everyday doubting my feelings, not wanting to act too hastily bc of the kids, and fear of how hard it will be financially on my own and that it takes months or years to fully hash this all out in your head. he still doesnt want to get it. all i can hope for now is that he doesnt get spiteful himself the coming days or weeks. im just so numb right now, hes really still blaming it all on me and saying im the one with the problem. i feel like a weight is lifted but i just feel so numb. no, he didnt get violent or anything like that. at least i can say that.


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