# A POLL ... What are your SEXUAL views - have they changed over the years?



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

So often in life & open forums...we come up against Sexual viewpoints we do not share ...Yes, we are married now... but this subject still comes up... we may struggle to be understood, our views may offend others/ there's offend us....this is an attempt to explain these differences.... 

It is GOOD to Understand where another is coming from...their foundation if you will.....not to belittle them or put them down - but show "tolerance" (so long as their "sexing" is not hurting others)....it also helps to seek out another who views these things through a similar Lens ....less misunderstandings/hurt in the greatest gift of Pleasure any of us have ever experienced. . 

*** *Human sexuality can be viewed from 6 perspectives or* “*lenses*,” says Dr. Caroline J. Simon, professor of philosophy at Hope College, in Holland, MI. In more than 20 years of teaching classes in *sexual ethics*, she noticed that most textbooks described only two of them. She has broken these down (below) ....further explanation in her book >>
Bringing Sex into Focus: The Quest for Sexual Integrity .....

“Rival views of how sex matters in our pluralistic society often mean that there are few shared understandings, conventions or rules of engagement,” she says. “It is little wonder that there is so much pain arising from misunderstanding & so many disappointed expectations in the sexual realm.”



> *1. **Covenantal View* ~ "Become one flesh". : Sex forges a permanent bond between 2 people...a representation of God’s covenantal relationship, it is a life-uniting act.. the Becoming of "one flesh" meant for marriage only.... to take sex lightly is not only disloyal to one’s spouse but also an affront to God... why the Traditional Wedding ceremony contains the words, “What God has joined together, let no man put asunder.”
> 
> *2. ** Procreative View* ~ "Be Fruitful & multiply" :The purpose of sex is to produce children...Thus sex must be heterosexual, genital & “embrace the hope of fruitfulness.” Also acknowledges that sexual relations that lack present enjoyment would hamper the marriage bond - whether they conceive or not.
> 
> ...


Please share your Journey of Sexual views........ if you have always held to 1 ... have jumped from "Covenant" (if you grew up with this) but struggled/ rebelled... jumped to "Plain sex" ....to "Expressive" ...or perhaps you've always looked through a "Romantic Lens" ? 

*Or maybe you have another *! And what, if any, will you impress upon your children....do they understand the various lenses they may come up against ~ in dating ?

Would appreciate your feedback!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I vote romantic, then power and expressive.

As for power, I enjoy having the power over her body, it's fun 
Unless of course her body overpowers me... -.-


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

For me it has always been a mix of the first 3 in the order 1,2,3.

The primary purpose of sexual intercourse is procreation and the best (for me only) place for that is with a stable loving marriage.
The secondary purpose of sex is to strenghten the bonds between partners (for me husband and wife).
I know this makes me sound like some sort of Victorian but that is who I am and how I feel.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*** *UPDATED for further understanding.*.....

Below is an example in the book given ...it is explaining how all of us look through a PRIMARY sexual Lense ...in this example below, it is *Covenant* ..and as you can see, it has others listed on the edges...(some may not use them all)...

For instance.... in *Arranged marriages*, *the Covenant view* is often Primary....no sex until marriage... there could be little to no romance in these marriages (which would be horrible!)... vows being of the HIGHEST IMPORTANCE ....than even a near sexless marriage or one dreadfully failing down the road..... but people will not exit it -because , to them, the Covenant is Primary....

It also addresses how different views look at pre-marital boundaries -how some view oral as permissible... another sees every sexual act "the same"...it is a bit complicated but fascinating, I felt.

I could never have Covenant as Primary due to the fact, I would not stay in a miserable marriage ongoing because of VOWS....(I need a workable partner)..... We both share the *ROMANTIC VIEW* as Primary.... with every single other listed here on the sides..

Now those who do not require committed strings of attachment for sex CAN NOT use the Romantic view as PRIMARY.. .they can use others, just not the 1st 3 listed ....and the Romantic can be on the side lines... I hope this makes sense... 














RandomDude said:


> I vote romantic, then power and expressive.
> 
> As for power, I enjoy having the power over her body, it's fun
> Unless of course her body overpowers me...


I know you 2 have a *Power Dynamic* - probably more than any couple on this forum ! 

I specifically made it possible to choose a variety of views. 

So Random... I've heard you say a # of times on here... if your sweet precious daughter brings home a guy like yourself... well... hmmmm, that could be very interesting ~ looking yourself in the face....What if HE is into the whole "POWER" thing too... ha ha .... I could see this being YOU someday Random >>>


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:rofl:

Yeah that's me alright! I am already an old man 

But no, my daughter ain't bringing home guys like that unless she wants them killed, going to make that very clear lol


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## Wiltshireman (Jan 23, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Yeah that's me alright! I am already an old man
> 
> But no, my daughter ain't bringing home guys like that unless she wants them killed, going to make that very clear lol


Having teenage daughter (one 17 and one 16) is the scariest thing I have ever done.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wiltshireman said:


> For me it has always been a mix of the first 3 in the order 1,2,3.
> 
> The primary purpose of sexual intercourse is procreation and the best (for me only) place for that is with a stable loving marriage.
> The secondary purpose of sex is to strenghten the bonds between partners (for me husband and wife).
> I know this makes me sound like some sort of Victorian but that is who I am and how I feel.


We might as well be out of the Victorian age also...appreciate your feedback Wiltshireman ... We waited till marriage, I believed strongly in #1...though I can't say it was always "easy" to maintain... and although we didn't do intercourse or oral, we WERE enjoying ourselves... to me the Fusion was the "becoming one"...also it was something "New" to bring to our marriage. I have always looked upon Intercourse as "sacred" somehow. 

I was very blessed to find a man on board with that, it is a rarity today. We wanted a larger family (speaking of "*Procreative View*", got pregnant right away, was on top of this world).... though I do praise my IUD !! 

And *Romantic *....This... I'd have to say is.. Overwhelmingly my Mindset ... the last 3 views are not something I would engage in, it would be going against my foundational beliefs ....how high I view the vulnerability & emotional in committed Erotic Love. 

Without this (as I want the whole package)....I'll have an affair with an "hitachi wand" or something...though this wouldn't be ideal, in fact this would get boring & I'd long for someone to hold....I feel the others would leave me even more "empty"....possibly feeling used -cause my expectations would be way higher / wanting more then they, which would leave me hurt & devastated. Not wise to go there...So I'd wait to find another who felt the same. That is just how I am made... I am not into turning my emotions off - to get off. 

I feel the enthusiastic passionate expression can all be let loose once the Emotional & commitment is in full swing.



> Having teenage daughter (one 17 and one 16) is the scariest thing I have ever done.


 You may have an appreciation for my personal views on this Wiltshireman...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

When I was younger sex was about power for me.Now that I'm a little older and frown upon manipulation I realize sex is about connection,romance,and bonding.Plus,it feels amazing when you're doing it with the person you love.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ScarletBegonias said:


> When I was younger sex was about power for me.Now that I'm a little older and frown upon manipulation I realize sex is about connection,romance,and bonding.Plus,it feels amazing when you're doing it with the person you love.


That is very Cool .. .before I came across this authors writing...exploring these 6 (don't have the book in my hands yet but plan to buy it - love this subject )..... I never heard or entertained a "*Power*" view.

I would have to say.... in our marriage, I USE THIS (or a form of it) ...dressing up to entice, to seduce....Love love love to turn him on & bring him to his knees.... I get off on that it seems. But yet...I know the rest is there (which I NEED)....or I wouldn't be able to GO THERE, if that makes sense. Just as in my youth, that one would have never hit the radar ...it was purely "Romance" for me. 

Neat to see how these can change, or we can GROW in these "Lens" as well...I think they all have a place in the proper setting...depending on what we personally "need" from the relationship....








ScarletB


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> That is very Cool .. .before I came across this authors writing...exploring these 6 (don't have the book in my hands yet but plan to buy it - love this subject )..... I never heard or entertained a "*Power*" view.
> 
> I would have to say.... in our marriage, I USE THIS ...dressing up to entice, to seduce....Love love love to turn him on & bring him to his knees, I get off on that it seems. But yet...I know the rest is there (which I NEED)....or I really wouldn't be able to GO THERE, if that makes sense. Just as in my youth, that one would have never hit the radar ...it was purely "Romance" for me.
> 
> ...


Well that gives me a new view of the power aspect.I guess I never really thought of doing those things like the sexy outfits or teasing SO as a play on the power side.
I also like being able to bring him to his knees It's only fair after all,he does it to me as well.
It's a good point saying all these things have a place.You know I love a good balance


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I'm a Romantic with a little Covenantal thrown in just to confuse things for me. There has been very little change in what I believe to be moral involving sex. I confuse myself with my decisions because I would like to be more receptive to sex, but I have never been able to change much about myself in that regard. Probably why infidelity stings so much when it's my spouse doing it. Probably why I am so against it. Not sure.

Sex was never just for fun or pleasure. It was so much more. Probably why I could not be told in the morning we were going to have sex that night. It never worked and whoever suggested she do that was and idiot because they did not know me. I would have understood much better in more subtle ways and have been receptive and ready; happy to please and joyful. I wish I knew who told her to try that. What she did before that time was what worked. Whoever told her to try that helped ruin sex between us. One of the most important aspects of giving myself to her. In my mind, it was more than just physical. It was a sharing of souls. That's how much I loved.

Would have been good to show ages of folks and religious upbringing. I'm fifty and brought up strict Roman Catholic, but no longer practice. Also, my parents grew up in the 1920's and 30's.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Well that gives me a new view of the power aspect.I guess *I never really thought of doing those things like the sexy outfits or teasing SO as a play on the power side.*
> I also like being able to bring him to his knees It's only fair after all,he does it to me as well.
> It's a good point saying all these things have a place.You know I love a good balance


Actually I'm probably wrong on it's intended meaning here ....beings there is no objectifying in committed loving relationships (*Objectify* = To present or regard as an object)..... it says this on the *Power view* >>


> In order to seize control & not be controlled, I need to *
> objectify *my sexual “partner” (in thought or by actions) before my sexual “partner” can *objectify* me... “Partner” becomes a misnomer because the mutuality of such encounters is mutual rivalry in a contest over power.


 ... in comparison to when a couple is primarily wrapped in the *Romantic*... that would cancel this out. 

I think Random Dude put a "seed" in my head by mentioning it in his post...and I know he meant before he married & during...with the Power view. 

There was a time , where my drive was SO high... my husband felt I LUSTED after him MORE than he felt LOVED... can't say this was true...but during that spell... I did seem to care more about my FIX over anything else..."just give it to me baby!"... one could say I was objectifying him a bit.. (with







)...and if he was objectifying me - so I could get my Fix, I was as happy as pigs in mudd.... what a crazy time that was! :rofl: 

Good thing I wasn't single ...that could have gotten me in some Trouble.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> RandomDude:
> But no, my daughter ain't bringing home guys like that unless she wants them killed, going to make that very clear lol


*Word to the Wise:*
Not to disillusion you, dad, but you DO REALIZE then that she will simply TELL YOU, "I'm going to the library to study with Amy!" while she's REALLY OFF meeting up with him at the local McDonald's! Forbidden fruit is that much more appealing!

[says 56yo former teen-age girl and currently mother of a 15yo]


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I was brought up Roman Catholic, so we were taught #1 & #2.

As a teen and very young adult, #3.

Now as a mature adult, #4.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

What does 'sex is great anytime both people want it but far better when you both love each other" count as?

Never thought of my sexual views as complicated. I like sex, it's great. Always enjoyed it before I found anyone I wanted 'to be with' but all of my most memorable sexual encounters were with the woman I love.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

1, 2 and 5 are alien to me.

I'll go with (4) Just enjoy it for what it is (3) with your beloved, (6) as it is central to human flourishing.

Have my views changed? Since getting married, not much, more "Just enjoy it for what it is", as in don't over think (I am so good at that). Before marriage my view was simply, sex, "Yes, please", not that I got much.


ETA: in the poll I hit 5 rather than 4.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I've always, by my moral nature, deemed that it should be for the "romantic aspect," but perhaps with a mild dash of the Freudian "_id_ concept."

There's nothing more intoxicating and mind-boggling in the world than doing it with the one that you absolutely love beyond measure, knowing full well in your heart that they feel the very same way about you!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

My mother, bless her as she was a single mom doing a kick-ass job, raised me to think sex was sacred and ONLY meant for marriage.

That's a HUGE guilt trip on an adolescent. That's a HUGE mind-eff for someone, like myself, who never really wanted to get married. SO I struggled for years. 

I lost my virginity to a guy I had been dating for almost a year. We dated 2 more years after that and had great sex. Was it love? I thought so...until I had real love down the line. But at that time, it was love to me and so I decided LIKE AN ADULT (I was 21) to lose my virginity. 

Before that, I was SCARED of sex. that is not ok for me. I was scared of sex and sexuality. I gave a boy a handjob at age 17 and my mom found out and it was like I was the WORST person in the world. WTF?! It angers me now to think about because it was NORMAL teenager behavior. In my head, I didn't want sex, I was just experimenting and the guy was ...omg...first real puppy love. For 2 years. Awwww love.  But to embarrass me like that and to shame me like that...WRONG WRONG WRONG. ESPECIALLY after finding out years later that my mother lost her virginity at age 16. So....honesty wasn't her strong point but shaming me was.

After my loss of the V card, I broke up with him beause he was banging my friend while I was away at school (drama omg) and I was dry in the sex department for 2 years until I met my older daughter's father. Then I was with him for 3 years.

Then...after leaving him and all that bullshet...I was DONE thinking that sex was tied to love. Eff that. Sex was tied to my body at that time and I explored. I had two partners at age 25 and by 30 I had 8. Whatever. 

At 31 I met my husband and he was my lucky number 9...or so I thought. I thought he looooved me and I thought we were making love, etc....nope. Turns out all of THAT was a lie too. Awesome.

I'm a bit jaded. lol. But I DO KNOW that my sexuality isn't tied to anything but myself and how I feel about the person I'm with. Sometimes it's just for fun. Sometimes it's just FOR ME. Sometimes it's all about them. Sometimes it's truly magical and "Making love" and sometimes it's just a hard fvck.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> .


omg.

:rofl::rofl:


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I am a mix of Romantic and Expressive but don't totally agree with all of the descriptions.

Very much I agree with: "_Romantic view holds that sex should be connected with a thirst for deep psychological & bodily knowledge, Mutually reciprocated gift-giving & intimacy are it's purpose._"

I also agree with: "_Sex is a source of personal empowerment that is central to human flourishing. Sexual restraint is unnatural but sexuality should be used without hampering the empowerment of others._"

I don't believe sex is only for those in love. It can be 'just sex', a physical pleasure. On that level it is fine but it is not complete at all. The ONS or FWB serve a function.

The Covenantal view has a lot of value but as an Atheist I don't hold the religious mandate view.

I was a virgin when I met my wife. She had several previous lovers. For me sex with her is still a very precious gift and sharing of myself because of the exclusivity. There is an emotional meaning to me. For her it is in some ways 'just sex' because she gave away the exclusivity.

One of my barriers to divorce is knowing by definition I can never have in my own heart that same kind of uniqueness or exclusivity with any other woman.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Romantic view for me, although I don't think I believe that there is necessarily only one soul-mate for us in life.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

K.C. said:


> What does 'sex is great anytime both people want it but far better when you both love each other" count as?
> 
> Never thought of my sexual views as complicated. I like sex, it's great. Always enjoyed it before I found anyone I wanted 'to be with' but all of my most memorable sexual encounters were with the woman I love.


I deleted my last reply...as I feel some of the Poll results are likely skewed.... Let me explain...

K.C ....You Prefer *ROMANCE * in your relationships (as we all do)... It does more for your emotional well being & overall enjoyment of the act, it likely touches you deep inside, these are your most memorable memories with such women.

BUT you'll happily engage in "*Plain Sex*" - because it sure beats wacking it alone







....after all ... YOU LOVE SEX.

Can I just say ... just cause some of us do NOT agree, or view Sex as the last 3 views ...does NOT mean we don't love sex. We just look through different lens to what it means to us personally. 

Now beings you feel as you do....you can not/should not answer "*the Romantic View*" ....because it clearly states ...


> Sex should be reserved for those who are deeply in love with the strings of emotional attachment/commitment. Loveless sex is not appropriate, People should be sexually faithful as long as love lasts. Those who hold the romantic view often talk in terms of sex as *sacred*, as a Gift to be preserved & given to someone of profound significance.


The Romantic View does NOT require Marriage, but it does require Commitment & emotional attachment. The last 3..."*Plain sex*" ~sex is just sex.... "*Power*", and "*Expressive*" Do not. 

Being married - one can still answer any of these though... in relation to your past, and IF you was to become single again for whatever reason....how you would handle SEX in your life & relationships......also how you prefer your children (if you have them) to look upon Sex....I personally talk about all of this with my children, but obviously prefer the *Romantic View* above all, and if they could manage #1 without repression, that would not bother me either. 

Most people today are for Casual sex ...# 4 and #6 are the NORM....though the *Romantic View* is still popular with many. I realize the Religious views of #1 & #2.... very very few will have these answers on this forum.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I voted the last three, but felt like I wanted to add one more: Recreational 

I guess "plain" comes closest, but it seems like it's describing a duty or something that comes you way like finding a penny in the street - no big deal. 

I didn't see a category that shows it as a great way to actively bring fun and excitement into a life.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Mine has always been a combination of three and I believe it will probably stay this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

These are MY beliefs on sex. They do not have to be YOUR beliefs on sex.

I broke the rules and voted for 1,2,3, and 5. Being a Christian I do believe that sex should be reserved for two loving people in a marriage. I believe God instituted marriage, not man, and therefore it is covenantal in nature. I believe that once married you become a triune being; the man and the woman become one flesh, and also have the Holy Spirit constantly with them as a witness to the covenental bond.

Sex is also obviously procreative since God gave us the command to be fruitful and multiply.

Sex should be romantic. You should feel a deep longing for your sexual partner.

Sex should be a form of expression. An expression of the deep love and longing you feel for your partner.

I don't think sex should ever be "just a physical act" or used a way to exert power.


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## K.C. (Dec 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> K.C ....You Prefer *ROMANCE * in your relationships (as we all do)... It does more for your emotional well being & overall enjoyment of the act, it likely touches you deep inside, these are your most memorable memories with such women.
> 
> BUT you'll happily engage in "*Plain Sex*" - because it sure beats wacking it alone
> 
> ...


:rofl: at that gif.

Thats why I didn't choose an option. Your explanation is about right. Sex is just sex but sometimes with the right person it can be more.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

that_girl said:


> My mother, bless her as she was a single mom doing a kick-ass job, raised me to think sex was sacred and ONLY meant for marriage.
> 
> That's a HUGE guilt trip on an adolescent. That's a HUGE mind-eff for someone, like myself, who never really wanted to get married. SO I struggled for years.
> 
> ...


 I agree 100% with you That Girl... the shaming was WRONG WRONG WRONG ... it just makes struggling teens go underground, it warps their sense of self , feeling understood & accepted for something we ALL go through....I also feel some experimenting is normal normal normal. 

Those Hormones are raging in those years... I remember thinking "







, how in the hell are we NOT going to go there!".....I feel Parents are so much better off Just being honest, sitting down with their daughters (& sons with Dad)...and saying..."Damn, I remember how that felt... . I just wanted to DO IT -with every fiber of my being"... it's normal...but there are still other ways if the teen doesn't want to go THAT far. (I said IF).... Our sex drives are a gift. Not a curse. 

It really bothers me when parents DO this......far too many, especially the more conservative parents....they let the church deal with it ...by ignoring / or they throw the guilt & shame- if one little thing comes to light. (a little porn looking, if Johnny was found







. 

I will not use Religion with my Children. They do go to Youth group, because they enjoy it (their choice).. but I purposely bring them down to earth. We don't shield them from anything.... we talk about it all, I encourage them to argue with me even - with issues so they will come out understanding WHY they feel as they do . They will make up their own minds...We have so much influence as parents... but it's still their lives...we just want the best for them...and in all things.. Be responsible. 

Even though we hold different views & share very different upbringing situations ...I do feel such things can have a profound effect on us... My beliefs, too, caused me some issues that I now regret. It happens....we learn, we grow...what works for us as individuals. 



> After my loss of the V card, I broke up with him beause he was banging my friend while I was away at school (drama omg) and I was dry in the sex department for 2 years until I met my older daughter's father. Then I was with him for 3 years.


 You had a lot of self control here. I know that is so NOT easy -when you just crave some skin. 



> Then...after leaving him and all that bullshet...I was DONE thinking that sex was tied to love. Eff that. Sex was tied to my body at that time and I explored.


 I know this is your view and ...it helps to hear the story behind the Why's ....how you have come to a different place....you have found your Groove and what works for YOU. 

I am not trying to influence anyone on here... Just trying to understand various perspectives. 



> At 31 I met my husband and he was my lucky number 9...or so I thought. I thought he looooved me and I thought we were making love, etc....nope. Turns out all of THAT was a lie too.


 We were all so surprised to hear this  . Your openness to everything that went down.. it's admirable. 



> I'm a bit jaded. lol. But I DO KNOW that my sexuality isn't tied to anything but myself and how I feel about the person I'm with. Sometimes it's just for fun. Sometimes it's just FOR ME. Sometimes it's all about them. Sometimes it's truly magical and "Making love" and sometimes it's just a hard fvck.


Thank you for sharing That girl.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I missed that we could do more than one...sigh.

However, I would say my view is a mix of covenant, procreative, and romantic. I have often told my husband that I wish I had waited. But my top two are Romantic and Covenant. Even though I didn't wait, I have always held to that thought as the preference.

ETA: And yes, I would say that being a Christian absolutely does, and always has, affect my views on sex.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Somewhere between plain and romantic. Not a big believer in 'soul mate' concept. It is certainly better with someone you really care about so it's more than merely physical but if I waited for my soul mate I'd be a very frustrated 45y/o virgin.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I think I'd have to add Expressive to my Romantic if we're allowed to pick more than one for how we currently are.
The self expression/empowerment thing is definitely me sometimes unless I'm thinking it's something that it isn't.
When I take control of SO in bed and do what I want with him,I'm expressing a side of myself to him.When he takes over and I take a submissive role I'm also expressing a side of myself.The beauty of it is he is expressing himself at the same time by allowing these change ups to occur.I also consider the self expression option to be part of dressing up and playing out your fantasies.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sandc said:


> These are MY beliefs on sex. They do not have to be YOUR beliefs on sex.
> 
> I broke the rules and voted for 1,2,3, *and 5*. Being a Christian I do believe that sex should be reserved for two loving people in a marriage. I believe God instituted marriage, not man, and therefore it is covenantal in nature. I believe that once married you become a triune being; the man and the woman become one flesh, and also have the Holy Spirit constantly with them as a witness to the covenental bond.
> 
> ...


SandC... You meant to say *Expressive* #6 - I looked at the Poll.... not POWER #5 ... I too, agree with much of what Expressive SAYS.... about the flourishing and all of that...but only within a committed relationship - which you seem to be saying above also .....

I am thinking I may need to clarify this further... Like... For Expressive, that is not required - It is the belief that Sex is such an innate part of who you are / being in touch with yourself ...it is like writing, speaking...you are compelled to let it naturally flow.....it's nature's way, we're not meant to hold back.....it's body language ...this goes for being single -with no strings. 

For those with this view... to NOT engage....they would deem themselves to wither, a part of them dying somehow.... self control would not be a great virtue here- if they desired the sex act with another. 

This is what I get out of that view anyway...Darn... I need the book, going to order today. These views appear to get more "Progressive" as they go down that list.

Of course we are still over the top Expressive in the *Romantic*/ even Marital* Covenanta*l ... with the strings of commitment...we may even get a whip out







... tie each other up, do some strip teasing lap dances & put a pole in our room... really anything goes in Marital sex/ committed relationship Sex.







Though some Christians may frown on some of that - ha ha .


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I would have to pick more than one option for none of the options fit me well. A mix of Plain Sex_ ( just enjoy it for what it is)_ and Expressive Sex _( A form of Self expression/ empowerment _) is in line with my sexual views. Sex is about bonding, fun and connection. The romantic view appeals to me, but the poll options says "save yourself for soulmate" and I don't believe in soulmates or saving oneself. Whilst I haven't had NSA or ONS and doubt I ever would, it's also not something I oppose. 

I'm not religious or a Christian. I've had years of Bible study and attended Christian schools, but I'm not a believer now. So Biblical principles have no impact on me. I don't believe sex is just for procreation or that one has to save oneself until marriage. I believe in safe, responsible, consensual sex. I don't have a problem with premarital sex between unmarried adults. I've had premarital sex. I'm not sure what my parents' views are on that matter because they never talked about premarital sex. Sex really wasn't a topic of discussion at our home. They didn't ask what I did and I didn't tell.


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## Vrs (Jan 23, 2013)

It's gratifying to see that 83% reserve sex either for marriage or for a "soul mate". (At this point of the poll anyway)

I'm in the marriage only category but still glad to see 83% are at least for exclusivity.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> SandC... You meant to say *Expressive* #6 - I looked at the Poll.... not POWER #5 ... I too, agree with much of what Expressive SAYS.... about the flourishing and all of that...but only within a committed relationship - which you seem to be saying above also .....
> 
> I am thinking I may need to clarify this further... Like... For Expressive, that is not required - It is the belief that Sex is such an innate part of who you are / being in touch with yourself ...it is like writing, speaking...you are compelled to let it naturally flow.....it's nature's way, we're not meant to hold back.....it's body language ...this goes for being single -with no strings.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the correction, yes I meant #6. I agree with everything you said except for the part about no-strings sex between two people. Sex IS the string. I just think sex is cheapened if view it as just another form of relating between two people. But it can be a very deep form of expression in a loving marriage. Almost akin to writing love poems to each other but using your bodies to express the thoughts rather than words.

BTW, THIS Christian doesn't think ANYTHING is off limits sexually between two loving married people. You want him to shove you down on the bed, rip your clothes off and take you? Have fun! He wants a good spanking first with a greasy spatula? Have at it! Like dressing up like superheroes? Up, up, and away!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> I think Random Dude put a "seed" in my head by mentioning it in his post...and I know he meant before he married & during...with the Power view.


Well 

We do play from time to time power games where the first one to cum/or goes animalistic loses so lol
Only problem is that they take up alot of time when neither of us wants to lose, most of time one of us loses it though.


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## Hortensia (Feb 1, 2013)

I voted romantic. For me, sex without love is like food without condiments. I may still have it, but not enjoy it to its full extent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

half way between 3 and 4 with a dash of 5 and 6 to make it a little more complicated.


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## Quantmflux (Feb 6, 2013)

Voted plain sex although I really don't like how it's worded. I sort of don't like the categorizations at all actually. I think they lead to a selection bias.

Those with strongly held beliefs that are more absolute will see their beliefs properly represented and happily vote "procreation, marriage only, soul mate"

I suspect those who don't believe in those absolutes will read the descriptions and either be sort of confused or be perhaps put off by what seems like an unfavorable viewpoint to sign up for "plain... Sex is just sex... Ho hum". In either case they're likely to not vote and just pass it by.


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## stopandmakecoffee (Jan 2, 2013)

none of the above 

when i was in my 20's , i had sex with boyfriends only, never one night stands or random guy i met in a pub.
but it was for fun, and one day i stopped having sex because i got bored and no guy was attractive enough, mature enough, nice enough, blahblahblah.so is it #4 isn't it? we were dating, no other party involved. but those aren't serious relationships,it's not like 'i wanna marry you'-thing.it was fun until it lasted.

then i met this guy- STBXH now-, and i felt 'this is the one', and we also had sex before we got married. they were awesome, then not too awesome, then none.sex with STBXH was more like a need to connect with him, a way to express that he was as hot and attractive as always, never a power play (at least to me, IDK if he purposely withheld sex to leave me hungry for a man's 'affection' and whatnot), and never a procreative one. 

now..im asexual, perhaps?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Quantmflux said:


> Voted plain sex although I really don't like how it's worded. I sort of don't like the categorizations at all actually. I think they lead to a selection bias.
> 
> Those with strongly held beliefs that are more absolute will see their beliefs properly represented and happily vote "procreation, marriage only, soul mate"
> 
> I suspect those who don't believe in those absolutes will read the descriptions and either be sort of confused or be perhaps put off by what seems like an unfavorable viewpoint to sign up for "plain... Sex is just sex... Ho hum". In either case they're likely to not vote and just pass it by.


And that's why there is the option to comment on WHY you feel the way you do about each category. If you view it as a covenant, but not necessarily bring God into your marriage (some non-Christians/non-religious do prefer waiting until marriage), you just explain that you chose it and why. Same for every other category. Some see sex as just...sex. Some don't feel that emotional connecting with their partners. It doesn't make them wrong, but again, they have the option to explain why they view it as such, if they so choose. 

There really is no wrong answer on this subject. We each have unique views.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Used to be very religious, I almost vote for #1.. 

But then, I didn't lived my life that way, in my younger times, I was in a rock band, yea we were a bit crazy  ..sex n weed n rock n roll kind of things... I had sex with nearly all of my girlfriends.. so if I voted #1 I'll be a hypocrite..

So I voted for #3.. yes, sex is to nourish and strengthen the love..whether with your steady girlfriend or with your wife.., and, after marriage, #2, to have children.. #2 and #3 goes hand in hand


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Just found this so very interesting... Was in line at Walmart last night & caught the magazine heading....for the 1st time I was HAPPY there was a line, I wanted the scoop!! 







The Bachelor - Bachelor Sean Lowe Admits He's a Virgin:







("Born again Virgin" that is- he has changed his lenses since his College Days)

One site said this >>>


> Word on the street is that Sean Lowe is engaged ,but there's just one problem. Sean is celibate. Basically, he's a beautiful, virginal angel who refuses to sow his wild oats in his fiancee's lady pastures until they're man and wife. “Sean doesn’t want to have sex until he’s married,” a source tells Us Weekly. “He’s a ‘born-again-virgin.’ It’s very important to him.”...


I've always enjoyed "The Bachelor"... but Sean is by Far my favorite now... this is not an easy stand in this world, many pop shots thrown at you for being Prudish/ Gay/ insecure (hardly!) ... like something is wrong with you... I applaud this man for taking such a stand, it is not easy ..... and I so hope he chooses his wife wisely, though it's out she is having a hard time with "waiting". Ha ha


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

When I was young, I was of the Romantic view - of course I thought I was in love with each girlfriend.

My views have changed and now I think it is much better to wait until marriage. It works better from the evidence I see, and it keeps that special bonding where it should be, after a proper commitment has been made (not only to each other, but also to society, which is part of marriage is.)

My wife was a virgin until we were married, and is very pleased with her choice. I was not, and whilst there are things I learned which have been useful, I think, in retrospect, it would have been better to have learned these things as a couple.

I've never thought it should be just recreational, a power play, or purely for procreation (although is a useful function.)
It can (and should) be expressive, but it's much better within a marriage than without.
Also, no reason why it shouldn't be recreational - within the marriage. Not many better ways to pass the time!


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## Jen862013 (Mar 19, 2013)

My view has change at first was “Covenant View” mostly because I was raised a catholic so I always planned to wait but the guy wanted to spend the rest of my life didn’t want to get married again so I changed my view to the “Romantic View” and I don’t regret it at all me and my SO are still together after 8 years and have a wonderful sex life I wouldn’t change a thing and I feel like marriage is becoming very overrated and people are not taking their vows serious anymore.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Rags said:


> My views have changed and now I think it is much better to wait until marriage. It works better from the evidence I see, and it keeps that special bonding where it should be, after a proper commitment has been made (not only to each other, but also to society, which is part of marriage is.)



There's a thread in the "sex in marriage" section where a woman in her 20s saved herself for marriage, and married a guy in his 40s. Well it turns out now that she's unhappy because their sex life is almost nil, and she feels she's too young to be living a sexless life.

I feel it should be reserved for very special partners only, but waiting until marriage is like buying a house without even opening the door first.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I started this thread BEFORE I got my hands on the book these views were taken from/ broken down & further explained for their differences....Half way through...

Even in the "*Flirting & Seduction*" chapter, *you learn the motivations BEHIND the flirting given the lens you are operating under *.....in the *POWER view* for example.... it has NOTHING at all to do with your WANT of another.... but the ego of the Flirter ...it's a self assertion, even if it's goal is just a one night stand....so for a Romantic female seeking more - this would be a TRICK / misleading to fall under his spell ....we must be on guard from the Power plays of others...

I learned things about myself in my younger years to *WHY* I felt / even Reacted the way I did....it's making sense... Being between a Covenant & Romanticist, I didn't appreciate flirting back then....even quit a Waitress job because I wanted to knock some of my customers out .... 

I felt it was WRONG unless you were involved emotionally... that was my view... even though I couldn't explain it....

The Author explained how FLIRTING can be Problematic for the Christian...due to the Flirt's intent to awaken the sexual & romantic interest where there is no serious possibility of a long term commitment. Plays into my reactions back then....I felt most guys were full of hot air (and they were!) ... my attitude was - go blow it somewhere else -- cause I ain't your honey, your Baby, or _____". 



Every view on here has it's value and purpose... for instance...it seems sublets of other lenses can be used with one centered in the middle (the primary -whether ONLY Married sex, ONLY emotionally attached/ Romantic - to Casual ..... (but the sublets are less with casual sex as married & Romantic could not be used)....

For instance, a couple can be "Covenant" without any expressive , or even Romance....Most of us would find this horrific !! Like an arranged marriage where the man just does his thing and the wife her duty. 

Explaining further.... 



> But when combining the sexual lenses, putting the Covenantal lens in the CENTER transforms how sexuality is seen through the other lenses. When Plain sex is brought into the orbit of Covenantal, Pleasure is still an important sexual value...but it is not the only value.
> 
> Also sex not being merely about physical desire & sensation , yet the dynamics of sexual physiology & response are not ignored. When the expressive lens is brought into the orbit of covenantal sex, the nature of the marriage covenant dictates what is appropriately expressed sexually.
> 
> Tenderness, domination, trust, possessiveness, and conflict can all be vividly conveyed sexually . When the covenantal & Expressive lenses are combined, trust and tenderness will be much more appropriate to express sexually than will anger or resentment or conflict.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

I am but a temporary expression of replicating DNA that seeks its perpetuation for all time. Although I have a mind, it too was the confluence of two DNA sequences intermingling, So I don't know how much independence I actually exercise as opposed to simply following my programming. 

But my programming has me liking monogamy, and daily intimacy.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I voted 1, 2 & 3.
4,5 & 6 was me before I met my wife , fooling myself thinking that sex didn't really mean anything , just physical.

Nothing can beat the feeling of making love to and having sex with someone who _you_ truly love and who truly loves _you._

"...It's so good , loving somebody, 
When Somebody Loves You Back..."

Teddy Pendergrass.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

I think it used to be more of a romantic thing for me but after getting my testosterone straightened out it is an entirely different ballgame. I feel a primitive instinct that I really have to keep under control. Sometimes I feel like a caveman but dont want to hurt her so I hold back.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Sure, my views have changed... love, real love has always been much more frightening than sex. Sex to me had been and to some extent is still carnal. I prefer sex now with the one I love. But, in my younger years, I could easily just separate the two with my preference toward sex and not love. Hence, I have had very few and I mean very few "girlfriends". Prior to getting married, if I had sex with a woman and she started talking about "I love you", I would run as fast as I could in the other direction. So I guess you could say I was a real scoundrel. So that part of me has taken a 180 turn. 

I think given my upbringing, I never really learned or felt the example of love and thus felt this was the hardest to deal with in my life. Thus it was easy to separate the two, but now the two are inseparable. So sure my views have changed, mostly. Not sure I can assign any of the numbering system given.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree and can identify with much of what Derio said.

Sex still has the primal aspect to it, and is very enjoyable , but the frightening part is the love.
I say frightening because there are things we do / accept only because we love somebody and no other logical reason.
I'm at a stage in my life where I feel that the best way to enjoy sexual relations on a deep ,satisfying , emotional level is when there is a mutual love between the two people.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I'd be somewhere between expressive, plain sex (without it being plain!) and romantic. My mother raised me with the 'body is a temple' mindset. When I approached dating age, I was somewhat guarded because I didn't want to be hurt emotionally - it couldn't just be sex for me. However my view on sex was that it was to be fun, connecting, and freeing and I felt that sensuality and being able to express that, was just part of my personality...but I also needed the security and love of sharing with someone who gave a damn about me, as I did them.

My views aren't to wait for marriage. I don't believe in soul-mates. I did wait for that someone special though. Mutual respect, care and admiration, as well as the chemistry, seems to allow me to be free of inhibitions and have peace of mind.

Although I haven't myself, I understand how some might approach sex for the thrills and spills of it and nothing more needed. I don't think my views have really changed over the years. I'll admit I can be very flirtatious, I love sex and sharing desire...but I need to be cherished and love giving that to another too.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> I voted 1, 2 & 3.
> 4,5 & 6 was me before I met my wife , fooling myself thinking that sex didn't really mean anything , just physical.
> 
> Nothing can beat the feeling of making love to and having sex with someone who _you_ truly love and who truly loves _you._
> ...


Just listened to your song here...enjoyed his talking about having that somebody in the ending...how it feels/ fulfills... It's cool you've experienced every variation ....and found your 's home.

I am going to have to say I am ALL 6 of them ...now that I am understanding this book a little better....but my primary Dominant Center is *ROMANTIC* by far...always has been...  ...I identify with every breath of that lens.... 

I know "*soul mates*" is a silly notion , I've even argued against it on this forum , to why this belief could cause some trouble, if having marriage issues....feeling you are with the wrong person-you missed your soul mate...YET...we've always *felt* that way, every now & then he'll say something to me about being his SOUL MATE...last time how he couldn't keep a secret from me, the time before that after a little scuffle in making up...and it makes me . 

I can even enjoy some of that *power view*, wanting to get him under my spell, workin' it.. I don't think he could claim this one though...bummer. Every view has it's allure ...for sure.


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## DDDCanada (Mar 23, 2011)

While I realize it may be considered next to impossible by most, I am far and away a ROMANTIC. There is nothing more powerful and special than being intimate with someone that you have connected with on a spiritual level. The pinnacle of the experience for me is when I lock lips with the person at the same time. For me, sex should be reserved and shared with the person that touches you in the most profound way.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DDDCanada said:


> *While I realize it may be considered next to impossible by most, I am far and away a ROMANTIC. There is nothing more powerful and special than being intimate with someone that you have connected with on a spiritual level. The pinnacle of the experience for me is when I lock lips with the person at the same time. For me, sex should be reserved and shared with the person that touches you in the most profound way.*


May I add....beautifully expressed !


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## reesespieces (Aug 3, 2009)

I voted for 1-3. I wasn't raised Christian but I was still religious and I firmly believed that sex was sacred and is to be reserved for marriage. To me, two people literally bonding isn't something that should be toyed around with before marriage. The risks involved with sexual promiscuity were enough to convince me otherwise, but I always believed that sex and love should go together and belong together. 

People often assume that my DH and I must have great sex all the time but we don't. And that's okay, because it's not permanent and it's just like life where it always changes. Even when DH and I were hardly having sex, I _still_ believe that sex is reserved for marriage. Negative things in life and negative experiences don't change what sex is and should be about, and as a Christian I hold onto that. 

I really do believe sex is a place where married couples should be willing to accept a new life into their lives, but it is still a romantic thing. I cannot possibly imagine having sex with someone I didn't love unless I wanted to completely cut myself off from my emotions. I've only had DH as a sexual partner and I have no regrets at all.


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## Aule (Aug 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Would appreciate your feedback!


I'll try. I think there is another way to view this. You've asked me to try to explain it.

I think there's a 7: Love Cannon

Long back-story short: I was autistic, raised in a dysfunctional family, suffered and witnessed child abuse, skipped two grades, and more or less grew up completely isolated and miserable under my mother's thumb once my parents divorced.

I started college at 16 and promptly joined the karate club. I never advanced beyond white belt because I was overweight, but I still kept at it.

I encountered an assistant sensei who I never met before because she worked out on different days than I did. When I first met her, she was on crutches since her knee had been hurt from a sparring accident. We met because I offered her a place out of the rain while I was waiting for class. I wound up cutting classes that morning just too talk with her. She was 31, a grad student, and I was 17, a college sophomore, when we met. My experience happened with her the Christmas after I turned 18.

Sensei and I talked once a week for a year. She was Caucasian (brown hair, brown eyes) but thoroughly Orientalized, and so I learned a set of values which were extremely different from the Western ideals but which brought a person to the same end. I also did lots of light sparring with her to help her knee recover.

She learned my past also. She gave me some practical advice to handle some of it, but she also said something to me which was then beyond my comprehension. 

"Unselfish love, properly focused, then applied at the correct time: is the most powerful weapon in the universe."

I invited her to Thanksgiving with my folks. Sensei ate quietly and listened to my mother rant on about me in ways calculated to break our friendship. She quietly took her leave and I didn't hear from her for a couple weeks.

Two weeks later, Sensei invited me to spend Christmas break with her family. We arrived at their house on Christmas Eve. We had a fun dinner, talking, laughing, and eating. About 10:30 PM, Sensei told me where my bedroom and shower were, and said she would see me in the morning.

So, I shaved, showered, and went to bed.

Just as I was about to fall asleep, at 12:15 AM, Sensei comes in not wearing a stitch, even though the air was frigid, with a candle in hand. 

Sensei told me she had feared I had been exaggerating all my troubles, but found out during what she consider an indigestible Thanksgiving dinner that I was actually telling the truth. She said my mother had turned evil, and my mother's tyranny over me was an evil thing which must be stopped.

I asked Sensei how she was going to do that.

Sensei replied she was going to convince me I had the right to live for myself.

I asked how.

She said with a gift. She smiled and opened her arms to me. Merry Christmas, Aulë. Come here.

I could barely hold tears back. I asked about birth control. She said she had an IUD installed right after Thanksgiving.

I fell into her arms and I cried and sobbed on her shoulder for I don't know how many minutes, because of all the years of loneliness and pain. 

When I was all cried out, she wiped my tears away... then kissed me... then was gentle and tender with me that entire first night, having intercourse with me for the very first time in my life. We also shared the other nights of Christmas night together, and she taught me a lot of other things.

When the week was over, Sensei said she would not see me again, but she knew I wasn't out of the woods yet and gave me her phone number to call any time of the day or night in case I needed advice.

She passed on from MS 10 years later, leaving behind a college professor and two daughters. I found this because we had one final phone conversation. Sensei wanted to thank me for healing her heart so she could marry. I thanked her for everything she had done for me. Her last words to me were, "It was my honor."

Sensei had used sexual love as the ultimate weapon to smash through the prison I was in, so I could escape.

She saved my life. 

I learned all the other forms of love because what she did gave me the chance to.

Comments?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I voted Plan...
I hink we want sex to be with a soul mate and maybe wait until we marry before sex. In todays world, that isnt reality. 

Many people are in love with the idea of being in love. We then THINK we found or soul mate and it's not real. Many times that fantasy will last for years.

I think we put too much emotions with sex. As a man I do that myself. I think my wife has it right...she was a virgin when we met. not because she was saving herself...She just didnt desire it to feel loved.

Sex for my wife is just an activity...something to do. It doesnt make her feel more loved or desired...

After 3 plus years on AM, Ie come to that same conclusion.

So now with my daughter growing up? Id like for her to pick one person for sex. I dont want her to wait until she gets married and at the same time, I dont want to be a grampa anytime soon...

I think many people confuse sex and love...

What about people who meet their soulmate and the sex is bad?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Aule said:


> I'll try. I think there is another way to view this. You've asked me to try to explain it.
> 
> I think there's a 7: *Love Cannon*


 I just wanted to tell you I tried googling this but all I came up with was Urban Dictionary's *>>*"Another name for a large penis."... which is not what you meant here.. ha ha 



> *Sensei replied she was going to convince me I had the right to live for myself.
> *
> I asked how.
> 
> ...


 You have given a  story here Aule.. of how Sex was used to Heal, to comfort ..in your need to feel loved... it awakened in you things you didn't know were there...and to feel greatly accepted by another... in the deepest way.....

You know I personally hold a Romantic view myself.. but it's impossible for me to NOT see , from your description, the context.... that what happened to you, this gift of Love.... how she left this imprint upon you... from your others posts as well ... that this led to great blessing in your life...to connection.... to breaking outside of yourself.... released from an isolated emotional prison of sorts.....clearly .. neither of you hurt each other... but comforted each other...inspired each other even. 

Very very touching Aule....







for sharing this .


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## wanttofix (Jun 4, 2013)

I view sex as plain, but in another twist. I feel you cannot know the person you are with until you take that leap. It almost feels like your play dating until sex. One girl screamed out "I love you" during sex, but she didn't actually mean it. It opened my eyes and was extremely sad because I did love her.


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## Aule (Aug 20, 2012)

So, what do we call it?

Power Sex, Inverted?
Healing Sex?
Care Bear Stare  ?
Love Cannon?

or, something else?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Aule, your story has the makings of a Grammy winning film, a very unquestioned and humane relationship you had with her...


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## wanttofix (Jun 4, 2013)

Aule said:


> So, what do we call it?
> 
> Power Sex, Inverted?
> Healing Sex?
> ...


If you are talking about me, I would call it spiritual sex. You have to be in love with the person you are having sex with.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *wanttofix said: *I view sex as plain, but in another twist. I feel you cannot know the person you are with until you take that leap. It almost feels like your play dating until sex. *One girl screamed out "I love you" during sex, but she didn't actually mean it. It opened my eyes and was extremely sad because I did love her.*


 And this happens so very often, the intentions of one is NOT the other...at the point we hit the sheets....It's very sad..but not at all surprising when levels of intimacy are skipped before the clothes come off...

One article talked about the levels of intimacy being 5....this would be a fine model for those who seek Lasting Love, commitment & ultimately Marriage...



> *The 5 Levels of Intimacy*
> 
> Psychologists have identified 5 levels of emotional intimacy we all move through as we get to know someone. They’ve been given several names, but for our purposes, let’s call them Level one through five, with five being the highest, or most intimate level.
> 
> ...


As a young woman who didn't want pumped & dumped by a guy who had a "Plain sex" view ..knowing this would hurt me immeasurably when he walked away.... some things in life, I felt are worth waiting for... for the right person.. the right time..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trickster said:


> I voted Plain...
> *I think we want sex to be with a soul mate and maybe wait until we marry before sex. In todays world, that isn't reality. *


 It is very very rare today...going by this thread... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/146490-poll-did-you-have-sex-spouse-before-marriage.html ..less than a handful say they waited for sexual intercourse & the vast majority of replies find that to make 0 sense to downright







...

My parents didn't wait in the 60's & neither did his in the 50's -conceiving his oldest sister is why they married...but we waited ...we felt soul mates yrs before our 's...this has never changed after all of these years...

I am going to blame this "mushy" affliction (if one might call it that- though we love it & wouldn't change it)...on both of us being *sensitive Romantics*...I did 2 threads on Romance... one of my favorite subjects... 



















For someone like myself.. I can not wrap my brain around how "Sex is just sex"...I wouldn't know how to restrain the well spring of emotions that this act arouses in me, or the attachment *I want to feel *with someone I ENJOY Being around....It would be a warring against everything in me... If I felt the guy was good enough to sleep with, I'd likely want to attach myself to him.... That's just how I am WIRED... 

I want the "afterglow", laying in his arms, feeling the giddy freedom to share my innermost thoughts.....if I felt he didn't want this, rejecting me emotionally / pushing me aside after he got his ...I'd feel like a wilting flower..







...I would be thirsting for MORE, this would cause pain.....so if I continued -for the pleasure in & of itself......inevitably...I'd loose a part of myself in such a relationship ..... a very vital part of who I am, and what brings brings me innermost JOY & happiness with another.... 

I think this is a balanced article ..... I so agreed with her ending...as it speaks the truth for all of us.....depending on what we want out of sex....whether that be single sex/ variety of partners ...or holding out for someone very special/ love & marriage...


> Embrace your sexuality
> 
> The key to enjoying our own sexuality is to remember that it’s not about what ‘people’ would think, but what we think. *How great sex makes us feel, what a healing, bonding joy it is. Set the boundaries you feel comfortable with and play within them.* And for the sake of love, don’t be too hard on yourself. A friend adds, “You judge yourself way harder than society does.” Embracing our sexuality is a life-long journey towards self-discovery; get yourself a First Class ticket to ride.





Trickster said:


> *Many people are in love with the idea of being in love. We then THINK we found or soul mate and it's not real. Many times that fantasy will last for years*.


Although I don't personally believe in the soul mate concept (as in 1 designated person is BORN for us) and have explained this Here >> *>>**(*post #14 http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relati...out-being-soulmates-opinions-appreciated.html *)*...

My husband often calls me his soul mate....I find it endearing...It's not like I am going to correct him...It could be an infatuation with new Love...but over TIME, if it remains steadfast...I'm going to say it's not a fantasy ...just a way of capturing how one deeply feels about another...



> *Soulmate* : A soulmate (or soul mate) is a person with whom one has a feeling of deep or natural affinity. This may involve similarity, love, intimacy, sexuality, sexual activity, spirituality, or compatibility and trust.


I really liked this quote below *>>*...the center Yellow in this graph, it had the word "*Perfection*" written there ...but I removed it... I think each one of us would have our own special word(s) for this very special combination when we find it in life...I am going to say all marriages should be made of this...was meant to be....the "Falling in Love, fulfilling sex life & the deepest of Friendship"..


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

SA, I don't think any romantic person sees anything wrong with a young person saving it with the one they love until marriage... But there is a problem with waiting for a moment that may never come, and waiting for a person that may never exist. Also, you only really get one shot at saving it for marriage. Just as your wedding day is only but one day of your life, your marriage is something you experience continuously for its entire duration, just as sexual relations are something you live with every day of your adulthood.


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## loopy lu (Oct 30, 2013)

I voted plain...which makes me fell, well...plain.
Its all good if everyone's good. 

I have never really changed those views either.

However, my mother always reinforced to me that I should never marry the first man I sleep with and to play the field a bit before settling down.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Lon said:


> SA, I don't think any romantic person sees anything wrong with a young person saving it with the one they love until marriage... *But there is a problem with waiting for a moment that may never come, and waiting for a person that may never exist. * Also, you only really get one shot at saving it for marriage. Just as your wedding day is only but one day of your life, your marriage is something you experience continuously for its entire duration, just as sexual relations are something you live with every day of your adulthood.


On the one hand you seem to appreciate why some of us feel this way...but also too, acknowledge it's just not reality for everyone....I wouldn't deny this...

Thinking back to those years.. imagining if things had played out differently...and oh how easily they could have.. today..more chances than not....a PIPE DREAM even. 

I am a pretty reasonable individual...I was never one to day dream or speak of successes I had little chance of achieving ....pretty much kept my feet on the ground, didn't expect much.. except in this 1 AREA....I did hold higher expectations... this is true.... I had glimmers of a beautiful romance in my head... smart enough to know most boys could never fulfill. They were too immature, partying types... 

I think it's OK to hold on to a dream in our Youth...we are young, we have TIME on our side, we have the whole world before us to explore.. no rush. 

But let's shake this scenario a bit....(the meaning in your post)... let's say I was met with 10 's ...one after another after another after another...who didn't show that Love/ affection I was seeking... just regular guys, had their heads wrapped up in their other heads ....commitment phobic....where none had similar dreams as me...none found ME worthy enough to deeply get to know, hold on to & share himself in the emotional ....while respecting my wanting to withhold the Intercourse ..understanding why I felt as I did....but pressuring, belittling me, comparing me to other girls... 

Years pass, men all seem the same...Let's say I turned 23 +....still single... yet hanging onto my dreams....still seeking that mystical Great guy....my hopes would be waning...no doubt...life is not always fair ....so you take the lemons & do the best you can to make lemonade....we don't all achieve our deepest desires even if we play our hand as best we can. It may UP the odds.. but there is no guarantees. 

So now the Reality is going to hit me in the face... I'm not all that darn special... and such a man doesn't seem to be out there...* I'd have to adjust my expectations* , wouldn't I....join the rest of the human race in their pleasure pursuits, after all it gets lonely & one runs out of masturbation fantasies ...... 

Clearly as the years go UP...having never experienced Sex in it's fullness...well...it gets to be more of laughing stock situation, doesn't it.. 
No Romanticist wants this to be her fate *> *









It is purely a different matter -if a couple is enjoying each other (like we were) ....just waiting for this 1 special event to start their life together...as intimacy was still there, just not completely unveiled. 

So I clearly "get" where you are coming from..and would whole heartily agree with you. :thumbup: 

Still... I would persuade the *young Romantic* to be very careful... to not jump in because everyone else is doing it, feeling peer pressured ....as it seems the ages get younger by the year & more acceptable....but to take time to contemplate what she really wants in life, why she feels as she does.... what type of future she envisions, getting married younger or older -after travels for instance.... our choices in this can change us....can throw us detours we didn't expect.. (again this is about younger people)

I am not against responsible Pre-marital sex ....(you know I'm not a Christian anymore)....obviously a couple can be deeply in love - with the strings of commitment without the piece of paper - this is still the hallmark of the Romantic view...


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I have two female acquaintances that share the same beliefs as you, but have not met that man that has caused a spark, they are afraid to play the field at all because of the perception that it is inappropriate and that they would be tempted into sin or something that disagrees with their own morals. Meanwhile they are approaching their forties and becoming depressed and disillusioned about their lives. Fear of having sex with the wrong man has caused them both to fear any kind of opposite sex intimacy. It's a shame because they are both kind hearted and beautiful women.


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## Marriedand40 (Aug 19, 2013)

Wow! This is a tough one, almost like talking religion and politics it seems.

We all think different that's for sure.

I was raised by hypocrital "do as I say, not as I do" parents who always said, "No sex before marriage and that's that"

I had no idea about different ways of thinking and sex and normal relationships were never taught to me so it took me until 20 to lose my virginity, way way too long.

The girl I lost my V card too was a lovely girl, class validictorian who has been dating and having sex since she was 14 so she was shocked it took me so long and was surprised. She was very open minded with sex. She broke up with me because she wanted a man with experience who liked being kinky. Foolish me didn't know how good I could have had it.

I never knew how to treat a woman, like cuddling, flowers, etc. I think every man should be taught how to treat a woman nicely. It will be better for their sex lives and for their self-esteem.

After her I had a long dry spell and had some random partners just to fulfill my desires of getting bored of masterbating. Sleeping around isn't my thing but neither is celibacy.

Very few people can wait until marriage and those who don't wait shouldn't be judged either. Not everyone meets their soul mate young and waiting until your 20's and 30's to start having sex isn't natural. Alot of women don't want to be the "teacher" when it comes to that.

I have probably had the least amount of partners compared to my friends. Numbers don't bother me but I always wished I had more sex in my 20's. I would be a better lover and more fulfilled.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I dont believe in soulmates either. I think we find somebody who we can relate to... a friend, companonship...somebody who puts up with our $hit, somebody who keeps us grounded.... basically... a true friend. If that friend comes with benifits...all the better.

Do people settle?

I think many people do...

Maybe thats when you get the 25 year old virgin or even a 27 year old virgin. That perfection may not ever happen.

I have a female friend who is 50 ish and hasnt had a bf in the 11 years that Ive kown her and she is adorable and so sweet... She is still waiting for her soulmate...she should of given some nice guy a chance 20 years ago or so...


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## Aule (Aug 20, 2012)

With apologies to all who may have felt misled by my mentioning ONLY my current wife as my only great love since Sensei, that I didn't have more than one wife, I'll explain my take on soul-mates.

Sensei had urged me to leave the area as soon as I could possibly manage it. I therefore left the East coast soon after
I graduated, went to grad school, and worked a few years.

My first wife was not a soul-mate, nor was she a great love.

In retrospect, it was her cause I had fallen in love with her cause rather than her. I met her at synagogue but she was not Jewish. She was a religion major who wanted to be a hospital chaplain. I was immediately
attracted to that. She was also really easy on the eyes, and the sex between us was really fun. We had a year's relationship before we decided it was time to have an interfaith marriage done.

Things quickly went downhill from the very start of the marriage. She hid from me that she had bipolar depression until after the wedding night, and the morning after she hit me with a rage attack lasting several hours.

The state she and I married in was one of the "covenantal" states where a couple married even 1 day was treated in divorce court as if it were 10 years. My first wife threatened that if I ever walked out on her she would take me for every cent that I had or would ever make. I had been a software designer, and it looks like she had made herself into a honey-trap to catch a good provider. She would float checks for the things she wanted which would then bounce and ruin our finances.

I should have annulled the marriage on the first day. I didn't know any better. She knew much of my past (but I had more than enough sense to not mention any prior relationships, only that I had them) and blamed my lack of experience of people as being the cause of her anger.

Suffice it to say I was stuck in an abusive marriage for 10 years. Thank God the marriage was childless.

I stayed with it, mostly out of fear, someone out of hope that if this lady could get her MDiv and become a pastor maybe she would be content and treat me better, also, because I was DETERMINED to set a better example for marriage than my parents ever were, no matter what the cost. There was also still a sweet lady buried in there somewhere who was desperately needy, and I very much needed to be needed.

It didn't work. Her mental illness got steadily worse over the years to the point where she was suicidal at least once a week. My boss was pissed that I had to take her to a psychiatric hospital that often.

We'd often have to have her repeat courses at the seminary. She ran up a huge student loan bill as a result, not just for tuition but also for living expenses. I didn't earn enough for her liking so she decided to borrow money for the things she wanted.

The end came during her final semester of her MDiv, when she had to do a student pastorship. Now, we had to live at a parsonage on weekends, Friday night to Sunday afternoon. 

There came a day on a Saturday night at the parsonage when she asked me to take an overdose of her medications with her. She and I were laying down on the bed when she asked me this. 

I changed my holding her closely into a pin. I speed dialed her shrink. I got him to talk her out of it. Sunday morning it was as if nothing had happened, she delivered her sermon.

Three days later I have a nervous breakdown at work. My boss retaliates and cuts my hours. I see a psychiatrist and get medicated for the first time in my life.

Six weeks later my dysthymia lifts and I suddenly see my life clearly for the first time ever. I also see very clearly what I wanted for the first time in my life, and I knew for sure it was not this lady. 

Had I not stopped her, her suicide (and possibly mine with it) would have destroyed an entire church congregation, broken a small town, and caused a nationwide incident.

(The priest I talked to about this when I was hospitalized for depression early in 2013 said nobody would ever know what didn't happen... and that I had performed an act of valor).

I judged my first wife as irredeemably selfish and no longer worth being loyal to.

I decide it's time to leave. I gather my identity papers and my car title, plus a little bit of cash, and I wait for the right time. My wife and I drove back to seminary from the parsonage on a later week, but she was in a grumpy mood and I was driving so I spoke little to her.

We get to the apartment near the seminary. She just lies in bed in her usual funk. I offer to take her to a movie to cheer her up.
She says no.

Her back is to the door, fortunately. I edge myself close to it. I tell her she will probably need to talk with her shrink tomorrow.

She asked why.

I told her, I haven't loved her in years, I want a divorce, and I hope to never speak with her again.

I ran to my car and floored it with just $150 and the clothes on my back. 

I called my employer and quit my job over phone and fax. He had said no one had ever done this to him before. I told him I was getting divorced and no longer needed his job to support my wife.

I tore up the life which had now become a nightmare, and started over.

I spend the next 18 months in homeless shelters and contacting legal aid.

Fortunately, the state where the seminary was located had far more liberal terms for conducting a divorce. Because we had been there five years, they had jurisdiction.

My soon to be ex and I contacted each other on email to negotiate terms. She wanted a bankruptcy, she had also run up $50,000 in psychiatric bills as well as her student loan. I wanted a divorce. 

What was left of the nice and compassionate lady I initially fell in love with, agreed with me that we would not use lawyers for the divorce, but would engage one for the bankruptcy.

I stay at a homeless shelter near the seminary while the bankruptcy paperwork goes through. I laser printed the pro-se divorce forms, filled it out, reviewed with with her, and we both signed it.

The terms were fair. I left the marriage with the clothes on my back, and my car, and I would have to pay back taxes once I got employed again. She left the marriage with her car and the student loan. I do her a kindness and set the marriage to end at exactly 10 years so she can get better retirement benefits based on my work record. An extra couple months added to the marriage was only a small matter for me.

A few months later I get a job offer in another state. I move there. My divorce and my bankruptcy became final about the same month, about a year following. my move.

------------

I never expected I would find a soul mate. I thought when I met and married my first wife, that Sensei was my only opportunity for a soul mate which I had lost forever, and that I would never have another chance since one encounters a soul-mate only once in a lifetime.

I instead settled: not for a great love, but for a wife I could work with.

I tried looking for a lady with noble intentions who was fun to play with, I worked out a relationship with her carefully, and it still backfired atrociously.

It would only be 3 years later after my first marriage ended that I actually WOULD find ANOTHER soul-mate, my current wife, and the initial contact was completely unexpected and out of the blue. But that's a different story on a different thread.

My wife is still a wonderful person. My experience the life I have with her, for all its crochets, kind of feels to me like God is telling me He's sorry, and that He gave her to me by way of apology. It's just that GOOD. A second chance. 

And, at long last, a child of my own. A second chance of another sort. She's as brilliant as I was but has none of my problems - at 10 she is a sweet, tenderhearted, and happy child. I have raised her absolutely non-violently, and it shows.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Marriedand40 said:


> Wow! This is a tough one, *almost like talking religion and politics it seems.*...
> 
> *We all think different that's for sure*.


 I had to comment on this..







...It is almost like a religion...none of us likes to feel "put down", shamed or belittled for our feelings on what sex represents to us...whether it is just *pleasure for a night*/ *taking the edge off* ....vs... *mushy strings entangled whirlwind Romance*...vs.. * waiting till Marriage* .....these things can be very very close to the core of who we are ...what makes us TICK, what brings us ultimate fulfillment.... 

It would make sense for the couple who seeks to marry younger, desiring to settle down & raise a family...this sort of person would be naturally geared more conservative in these views...

Over the lifestyle of the College Student...looking to party hardy, dating for flings - finds the Test driving exhilarating....His / her focus is having FUN in the moment...don't worry about tomorrow....that'd be like a Christian & Atheist hooking up...the foundations world's apart.... 



> *The girl I lost my V card too was a lovely girl, class validictorian who has been dating and having sex since she was 14 so she was shocked it took me so long and was surprised. She was very open minded with sex. She broke up with me because she wanted a man with experience who liked being kinky. Foolish me didn't know how good I could have had it.*


The class validictorian wanted an EXPERIENCED Kinky guy....You were test driven, shown to be lacking & dumped.... while another girl might have appreciated your lack of experience...feeling you were saving it for someone special...though this was never your aim...so one must look deeper..than just experience/ previous partners. 

Turns out...you & the Kinky Validictorian held similar views after all.....you was just not as seasoned at that time....being a newbie.... Interesting isn't it. 



> *I had no idea about different ways of thinking and sex and normal relationships were never taught to me so it took me until 20 to lose my virginity, way way too long*.


 See I wouldn't feel this is way way too long at all.... 

Me & my husband were talking about this the other night (Lon's posts particularly)... I told him how I would wait for so long, then I'd make lemonade with what I had to work with Guy wise......I'd lay aside my Prince fantasies, say "F*** it" and give in.....not screwing just anyone...but potentials.. if I felt they cared about me - at the very least. 

I asked him how HE'd FEEL....wouldn't he be concerned about HIS AGE/ embarrassed...thinking what a loser he was and he better find someone to LAY..reaching 30...35....let's say.. 

...He insists he still wouldn't sleep with someone he didn't love or want the strings with..he's never been one to care what others think..but does his own thing........he'd just keep Rosey Palming it with his 300







magazines..

A # of times he's made comments to me saying had he not met me...he'd probably still be living at home with his Mother.. I'm like "WHAT?!#$%"... that sounds so gawd awful pathetic ... but in the same breath..it makes ME feel very very special... then my next thought..."My God..what a WASTE that would have been! "....

So even me & him feel a little different here... I wouldn't enjoy being alone & sexless..like AT ALL... but him...he'd choose it...over sleeping with someone who he didn't have a trusted connection with...he'd just keep biding his time. 



> *I never knew how to treat a woman, like cuddling, flowers, etc.* I think every man should be taught how to treat a woman nicely. It will be better for their sex lives and for their self-esteem.


 I would think these things would come natural for the majority...the cuddling -if you are high in 'Physical touch", it would. 



> *Very few people can wait until marriage and those who don't wait shouldn't be judged either. Not everyone meets their soul mate young and waiting until your 20's and 30's to start having sex isn't natural. Alot of women don't want to be the "teacher" when it comes to that*.


It's always a dead "give away" to our views when certain things are expressed ....

If a girl uses the term "gift"...or a guy feels her saving herself is a "gift" to him, sees this as something valuable...it's an automatic Romantic view ...or Covenant...these people have more boundaries in sex.... this is true...

If one speaks of waiting as a waste of our youth/ Unnatural ....it being more of a hassle to teach the inexperienced , don't care how many partners...enters the other views...less boundaries in dating..... 

At the end of the day....in dating.. none of us should be with someone who would demean or belittle how we feel...but find another compatible for the same things we want in life...

I would prefer the sweet awkwardness of the inexperienced male so that we could learn together.....over the stud who practiced with 20 plus women... that would be a turn off to me...a "scratch" even. 

Myself and Created2Write had a tag team debate with DvlsAdvc8 here *>> *

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/108042-ladies-important-things-if-single-today.html .....his thoughts on me was I had sexual hang ups... he judged...he can not wrap his brain around why anyone with a lick of sense would not just shed their clothes for pleasure alone, what is the big deal...

I felt he was sincere in trying to understand though...or he just likes to argue with "hung up" women.... It was fun till a Mod locked the thread cause we were going in circles... just a show of HOW STRONGLY a person may FEEL about what sex represents to them.. it's not something to mess with...just respect it... and Sometimes ya just gotta do this >> 



> *I have probably had the least amount of partners compared to my friends. Numbers don't bother me but I always wished I had more sex in my 20's. I would be a better lover and more fulfilled*.


 you are typical to this article...Men And Women Have Different Sexual Regrets, Study Claims


> *The most common regrets for men were entirely different:*
> *1*. Failing to make a move on a prospective sexual partner (27 percent of respondents)
> *2.* Not being more sexually adventurous in their youth (23 percent)
> *3.* Not being more sexually adventurous when single (19 percent)


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

A SimplyAmorous sex thread? I cant possibly resist.

My view of sex has become very very clear to me over the last few years, I only wish I could have acknowledged it a long time ago.

I am a pure #6. It's expressive. I decided to open myself up to what life and people have to offer, and in turn what I have to offer, share or express myself. 

I used to think it was romantic view, but for me, romance simply has become part of the expression. 

And as a result of my coming to terms with my view of sex. Oddly enough, sex just keeps finding me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Aule said:


> *My first wife was not a soul-mate, nor was she a great love*.


That's an understatement reading your story here [email protected]#$ Geez Aule... your 1st wife ...a bipolar suicidal Pastor in & out of the Psych ward !...who wanted you both to do a "Jim Jones".....this leading you to a nervous breakdown ...and ending up Homeless...YIKES... 



> Had I not stopped her, her suicide (and possibly mine with it) would have destroyed an entire church congregation, broken a small town, and caused a nationwide incident.


 You can't exactly hide this kind of drama & Mania from a congregation.... just imagining how that must have worked? Couldn't be too many sitting in the pews...



> I ran to my car and floored it with just $150 and the clothes on my back.
> 
> I called my employer and quit my job over phone and fax. He had said no one had ever done this to him before. I told him I was getting divorced and no longer needed his job to support my wife.
> 
> ...


 Wow...you hit bottom 2 times in your life.. Sensei 1st gave you hope....inspired you....then your 2nd wife coming into your life after this 10 yr unimaginable nightmare.... 



> I never expected I would find a soul mate. * I thought when I met and married my first wife, that Sensei was my only opportunity for a soul mate which I had lost forever, and that I would never have another chance since one encounters a soul-mate only once in a lifetime.*


 See this right here is the BEAUTY of why the "soul mate theory" is NOT true...if one wants to look at it as a theory... (not so much what the word represents to how we feel about a person) but attaching this belief that their is ONLY 1 in a lifetime.. if so...some people have been doubley blessed. 

Because although we may feel we had that 1 special true love..being enraptured with them while they lived.... if they pass on... it DOESN'T mean that can't be found again...it may be of a different intensity....with new quirks but endearing none the less... but it doesn't mean our chances are UP...or we missed something... 

That's wonderful you got a 2nd chance... and to be a Father too !


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

Mine is uncomplicated. Romantic here. Always have been and nothing has changed. Even dating in the younger years, I waited until I felt love and felt loved back for sure.

I have a prerequisite that I am in love before sex. That is maybe why a sexless/affectionless marriage is in my book, a revelation that I was never really loved.


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## ladymisato (Aug 5, 2014)

I did the poll and just ended up checking all of them. It's a pretty good list and I can see each as an important expression of sex and love in marriage. At one time I might give more weight to one or another but each one has figured in my marriage at some point.

I hesitate even to say that one is, in general, more important than the others. The Power View is probably one where I am more unique, I see only four of us admitted to that, but even I would not name that as the most important.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

I don't really have any "sexual ethics". I mean, the first person I dated ended up being my "soulmate" so I've never wanted to have sex with anyone else, or thought about it. But that's just how things happened, it wasn't like I was sitting around thinking about how I was going to save my virginity for my Prince Charming or whatevee. 

If we hadn't met, I probably would have just... Had what I consider to be a regular sex life, general dating, a few one night stands (or more). I don't think that sex has to be sacred and special all the time. Or ever, even.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Whoa this thread is an oldie!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

batsociety said:


> I don't really have any "sexual ethics". I mean, the first person I dated ended up being my "soulmate" so I've never wanted to have sex with anyone else, or thought about it. But that's just how things happened, it wasn't like I was sitting around thinking about how I was going to save my virginity for my Prince Charming or whatevee.
> 
> If we hadn't met, I probably would have just... Had what I consider to be a regular sex life, general dating, a few one night stands (or more). I don't think that sex has to be sacred and special all the time. Or ever, even.


Pretty much how it happened with me, also.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Personal said:


> How funny I composed this essay explaining my thoughts on this, then noticed Lon's comment that this was a dead discussion. So I've since deleted it just after posting it.


I really wish Lon would not have posted that then.. I would have much enjoyed hearing what you had to say Personal - *dam* it *! 

I wish you had it saved.. it's still a worthy discussion.. this is NOT a problem thread anyway.... so that should not even apply..


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## OneLoveForLife (Mar 21, 2015)

tVery interesting article. Like SlowlyGettingWiser, I was taught 1&2. I'm currently a FULL on #3, but struggeling right now to transition to #4. My wife transitioned to #4 sometime over the last 3 years with her being in nursing and experiencing a lot about life/death and seeing the results of cheating/open relationships/sex on people. 

My wife says she would be okay with having an open relationship, but said it wasn't something she needed. Me being the "read into everything you say" kind of person that I am, decided that meant I wasn't satisfying her sexually and that she wanted to cheat on me (or probably already had). This was a tailspin, and, thankfully, this website and books like Opening Up and Ethical **** helped me understand there are other good belief structures out there that can create happy healthy lifestyles. I'm still not a #4, but I've memorized the belief structure well enough to argue that #4 is correct with a #3 (which I've done with my friends as an intellectual exercise). 

Can't wait to finish this transition!!!!! I'm so ready to stop hurting and be happy again. Change is hard but worth it. My goal is to love this woman with everything I have. I've romanticized changing my belief structure to alloy them to be themselves without guilt or negative repercussion because my core beliefs, stronger than anything, are as follows "You should not stop someone from being who they want to be" and "you should live the life you want to live". 

A great quote: "Be the change you want to see in the world" - Mahatma Gandhi


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