# HELP ME; I need a womans point of view



## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

I posted this in the Coping With Infidelity section, but the majority of replies were non-contructive. Only KathyBaetsil gave me some really good advice, but I'm looking for a variety of opinions. Read this; it's good:


My wife and I have been married 12 years. We have 3 children together; ages 11, 9, and 6. I'm quite a bit older than her; I am 50, she is 34.
I look good for my age, keep in shape, etc. I am a very loving, affectionate, caring guy; I cook, clean, do the dishes, give her backrubs, buy her turtles (her favorites); just generally try to make her feel special.


She is the exact opposite. I'll be lucky if I get a kiss from her once a month (unless it's a quick goodbye kiss as she's leaving for work). She's not affectionate at all, but I knew this from before and have learned to live with it.
That's just how she is. Our sex life is great! We still have sex (up until recently) 2-3 times a week, and she can even orgasm twice once in a while. No complains there.


We've had some hard times in the last 5 months, argueing and such, which I will explain later. A couple of weeks ago I walk in the door, all smiles happy to see her. I try to give her a kiss and she turns her head. I then tried to kiss her again but she just pulled away.
She's done this before, but everytime when she was busy doing something. This time she was just standing there.



That hurt me so bad inside, I just shut down. I stopped giving her attention; started acting the way she treats me. She responded by being very terse with me, no more long conversations, even more distant, etc. I finally stopped talking to her; she responded by saying "What, now you don't even want to talk to me?". 3 days later I asked her why she was treating me so badly; that it seemed we were more like roommates, not husband and wife.
I also told her that she needed to see a psychiatrist because of past issues before we were married that have never gone away (she was abused by her stepdad).

Instead of a positive reaction from her (lets work this out, etc), she totally disengaged herself from me. "We're like roommates, huh?". A couple of days later she said that she needed to figure out why she treats me so bad, that she doesn't trust me anymore, that she needed some time to herself to figure out who she is. She brought up that maybe we should get divorced if she couldn't come to terms with all of this. She basically said "I need to figure out who I am; you need to leave!".

So here I am 3 days later, staying at a friends house, letting her figure out what she wants to do. She didn't give me a date for me to come back.


HER ISSUES WITH ME

She doesn't trust me anymore - I helped build a house for my Mom, and when she sold it, she gave me $30,000 for the kids education fund (Missouri MOST) and $5000 to help pay for a new roof for the house. I never told her about it, knowing that the money was not going for us. The $5000 I put in our joint savings account, and she checks it online every so often. It's not that I put it under the mattress to hide it, I just didn't think it was a big deal. BTW: she has a checking account in her name only; I got pissed off when a couple of years ago I opened up my own saving account, so I closed it to make her happy.

I save money every month which goes in our safe, and had to take out $1900 to cover a stock trade that went bad. Then she wanted to know exactly how much I spend per month and where the rest of the money was going. I told her every detail; and she's told me many times she isn't interested in investing or how it works.

I order her food for her: She told me that she's tired of me telling the waiter/waitress what she is having; "I have my own mouth, I can order myself!" To me it's just common courtesy for the man to order.

I order her beer for her at the bar: Same as above with same reaction

I walk in front of her, not with her: Many times, definitely guilty of that

"You walk away when I think that you're behind me": Guilty of that too. If I see something I like, I'll mosy off and she'll say, "where did you go, I thought you were behind me"

She stated that she felt like I was like her father, and she wanted some space to figure out who she is. I don't consider myself a controlling person; maybe she does.


HER OTHER ISSUE WITH ME

Like I said, I am a loving,trusting husband who would never do anything intentionally to hurt her. I've made 2 mistakes in our marriage:

1) On my birthday 8 years ago, I went to order a beer at the bar. I went up to the bar and ordered the beer, and stated it was my birthday. The girl standing next to me said "Happy Birthday", gave me a quick (and I mean quick) kiss and walked away. My wife was pissed. She's never let me live that down, saying I was "Sucking Face" with her. Not true.

2) 2 Years ago New Years Eve, we were out with some friends. I barely ever drink any hard liquor, but I got to drinking shots that night for some reason. I don't remember anything after about 2 hours in there. Total blackout. My friend told me that at Midnight, I gave the bartender a kiss on the cheek. My wife then punched me in the face. Like I said, I don't remember any of this; and I certainly will never get that drunk again. She's never let me live that down either.


NOW FOR THE GOOD PART


We've always done everything together, we generally get along great. Like I said, our sex life is great! About a year and a half ago, her friend broke up with her boyfriend and was really depressed. My wife said that she would go out with her to cheer her up. She started going out to the bars fairly frequently while I stayed at home with the kids.

I started getting worried (and I'm not a jealous guy at all, even she'll tell you that), especially after she and her sister went to a party at a guys house who invited then to go after the bars closed and she didn't come home until 4:30 in the morning. She ended up being Facebook friends with him. In her defense, I don't think she ever contacted him.

After about 5 weeks of this, she sits me down one day and says: "Would you mind if I have sex with other guys; It's only sex, it doesn't mean anything". I asked her how she would do this, she said "I'll just get a guys phone number, and when the urge arrises, maybe once a month, I'll go over to his house and F*ck him. No emotional ties whatsoever, it's only sex". I asked her if I could do the same thing; she said "No, you would get too emotional and get attached to the girl".

Man, that killed me. It was like my heart had been ripped out and stomped on. I never, ever, would have thought that she wanted another guy. She never acted like she wanted one. I cried for 4 days, had to see a psychologist, before she finally realized how much it hurt me. She then said she was just gauging my reaction, she really never wanted anyone else.


I hurt for about 2 months, then got over it. Everything was going alright.


ROUND 2

Part 1:

Last summer in July, we had 3 soccer coaches from England staying at our house for a week. One of the guys was really attractive, and she just swooned over this guy. She tried to change her work schedule to stay home, didn't sleep during the day when she was working night shift, etc. She then took them to the bar one night, I showed up about Midnight just as she was rubbing her rear in some other guys c*ck.

Man was I dissappointed. What really hurt me was that she payed him more attention in 1 week than I get all year!


She then starting going to the bars again, this time with a couple of local friends. She was going out once to twice a week, coming home late, having fun and dirty dancing.

PART 2:

In late September, she went to a 3 day conference in Columbia, MO with one of her friends. The 2nd night she was there, I hired a private detective to tail her. I called her about 6pm and asked her what she was going to do. She said she was going to go shopping, go out to eat, go back to the Hotel bar for a couple and go to bed. The detective followed them to Kohls and dinner, and she was doing exactly what she told me she was going to do.
I was happy! I trusted my wife, so I called off the detective and told him to go home.

I then called my wife around 9pm because I was going to bed. She said "Not much is going on here, just having a few beers and going to call it a night. I love you". Man, I was happy, she barely ever says "I Love You", so when she does, it means a lot. We talked for about 1/2 an hour and she said "I Love You" again before hanging up.


At 12:30AM the phone rings. It's the detective! I said "What are you doing calling me, I called you off!" He said: "I've been doing this a long time; I know how it ends". Apparently her and her friend had gone downtown and picked up a couple of guys. I found out later that these guys were in fact staying at the same hotel they were, were drunk and needed a ride home. That was verified.

The detective gave me the play by play: The guy her friend was with went back to his room, while my wife and her friend and this other guy went to my wife's room (she was rooming with her friend, he was rooming with his). He went to the bathroom, and then my wife and him went to his room. I was freaking out. I waited about 10 minutes, the called back to her room.

I wish I could have seen the look on her friends face when I called. I asked to speak to my wife, and she stuttered "She's in the bathroom". "Well, give her the phone!". "I can't, I'll have her call you when she gets out". She then called my wife who calls me back. I made up a fake story about me having a bad dream. She said "Don't worry, I'm in bed and ready to go to sleep; I'll call you tomorrow".

I waited another 15 minutes, then called her again. I couldn't stand it any longer. I told her there was a detective that had been following her and she was busted. She lied and said there wasn't another guy, he must have had the wrong room. He verified she was indeed with the guy. She hung up on me, then she texted "We didn't have sex". She told me that they were just talking, she wasn't tired yet and wanted to stay up a little bit longer.

Needless to say I wasn't very happy. When she came home the next day, we had a big fight, but at the end, we made up. I wanted to believe she was telling the truth.


PART 3:

I was bummed out for about a month, but got over it. One halloween night, we got dressed up, went dancing and had an absolutely awesome time. It was so good, I told her it reminded me of when we were dating. Hadn't had that much fun in years! About a week later she bought a card and told me how special I was and that she loved me. She had never done this in our entire marriage, so I felt great!!!

Then in December we went out for her birthday and were having a good time. She asked if she could dance with other guys. I said no problem; like I said, I'm not a jealous guy. We were both on the dance floor, and she started dancing with this one guy. Next thing I know, she had her hands all over the guys *ss and was feeling him up on the dance floor. I was dissappointed. She told me later that's how she always has danced. She just likes dirty dancing and it doesn't mean anything.


With all this happening within 4 months, I started having good and bad days. She couldn't understand why I was acting like this. If I were to do the same thing she does, we'd be divorced. There's a huge double standard in our relationship.

Example: We were at Walmart a couple of weeks ago and I was in the checkout line. She snuck off because the person behind the register was a girl. We struck up a conversation about the weather and work. She was fat and pregnant, married, definitely not attractive. My wife comes up from behind and says "Didn't know I was behind you, did you". She gave me a dirty look and walked away.

A week later, we were shopping again. I asked the checkout girl if I could borrow the Aldi's ad to comp. All I said was' "Can I borrow the Aldi's ad, I'll bring it right back". My wife got pissed and told me to get my own cart. I had had enough. I walked off, got in the car, and went home. I couldn't take it anymore, She called and I picked her up. That was the beginning of where this story started.


I don't know what to do. I love my wife to death, she means the world to me. What's going on here? Any advice?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

Sounds like you are married to a nut who doesn't want to be married.


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## nothingleft (Aug 22, 2012)

she doesnt respect you, that is clear. I know this sounds harsh but you are being a doormat, you should have dealt with this behaviour a long time ago. It sounds like she has lost all physical attraction for you and uses you to fulfill her needs when there is no one else around. She needs to feel a desire for you again and that will not happen if you continue to be her doormat. Man up and distance yourself from her emotionally, be nice but no more intimacy! go to the gym, start looking your best and if you dont have confidence..fake it!! there is nothing more attractive than a man with confidence in himself and his ability to make decisions.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

Her big problem with me is, I make all the decisions, and she thinks she doesn't have a say in anything, which is not true. On investments, she doesn't have a say because she told me once she didn't care about that stuff. She has a very low self esteem, even though she is an attractive woman.


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## Anabel (Dec 21, 2012)

> Read this; it's good:


No it's very bad.

She wants time to figure out who she is. You should heed that, in my opinion.

If you're 38 and marry a 22 year old... it sounds a bit silly to complain three kids later about how immature she's turned out to be.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Edit: You have posted this same scenario on three different threads and each and every thread provided you with pretty much the same reply. She's cheating, in one form or another. She doesn't love or respect you. She has serious problems you cannot resolve.

So I have to ask, what kind of response were you looking for? How is that 20 different responses all repeat the above theme and yet you remain hopeful? You came the the nurses office with a serious oozing, the bandaide must be ripped off before healing can begin. Stop protecting your illusions and start protecting yourself! :End Edit

You married a woman who never grew up. Thats the problem in a nutshell.

She's out with friends, drinking, dancing and I would bet my house she's hooking up for minor petting at least. Maybe not relationship affairs, but certainly playing the field. She might love you, but the behavior you describe doesn't sound like love does it?

You may need more affection and reassurance than she can handle. Maybe that is triggering her to seek random men who aren't looking for reassurance and just want her for an hour or two. But is that fair to you? That she not only doesn't try to meet your needs she punishes you for having them? Doesn't sound like mature love to me.

Your marriage sounds a LOT like my best friends marriage. She goes out to party frequently, she dances, flirts with and has minor hook ups with various men she meets. She doesn't have sex with them, just heavy petting. She gets excitement, she gets validated, and the sad part is, I cannot think of a way, nor can she, that her husband can meet her needs for excitement and validation.

You say she over reacts to absurd instances of you talking with another woman. I wonder if she is doing to you, what she secretly wishes you would do to her? Or, maybe she's just looking for a fight, so she can focus on being mad at you instead of feeling rotten about herself for her behavior. Again, this doesn't sound like she loves you, more like she views you as another parent trying to control her. What do your kids yell when they are punished? "You are so mean!"

It is not very likely you can talk, reason or negotiate your way to having a wife who isn't stepping out on you. From the way you describe her, she doesn't seem to have much insight into her behavior, much less accept responsibility for not only what she is doing but what that does to you. Again, not sounding like love.

Last point I want you to understand. Each time your wife steps out on you, she looses respect for you. Each time you look the other way, convince yourself that you're over reacting, she rejoices in her victory and she grieves the loss of her husband. She is just going to get worse and worse.

You deserve to have your love returned. Now you must make that happen.

You must put your foot down, no more bars with friends. No more out of towns with friends. She has to enter therapy to understand why she needs to have this level of excitement in her life so she can control it and channel it into something less harmful to your marriage. If she refuses these terms, in any sort, she is essentially telling you she expects to be able to do what ever the hell she wants, whenever the hell she wants, and how you feel about it is of no consequence.

This means, you have to prepare for this relationship to end. You can't put this genie back in the bottle. You hired a PI who told you she was in another hotel room with another man<-- there is nothing more that needs to be added to that scenario.

What Kathy told you was probably spot on, but likely not what you were hoping to hear. Where you really hoping to hear that everything was going to be just fine and you are being overly sensitive? It's not and you're not.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks all you ladies for the replies, especially the detailed one from AnonPink. That's what I wanted; an in-depth analysis of what's going on. My only conflict is, 
1. Why did she buy me the card after that night out which said that "For my guy, I love you"
2. Why did she buy me a new wedding ring last month for Christmas (I had lost my ring years ago)
3. Why does she still hold me when we go to bed?
4. Why did she grimace when I told her we ought to think about dating other people if she wants her space? 



I can read my wife pretty well, and I could tell that hurt her when I said that. That was the first time in the last 3 weeks that she showed any sign of emotion towards me.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

1. Your wife married TOO young and now she's regretting her lost youth.

2. Although you look good for your age, your age is MIDDLE AGE (says the 56yo woman). She is still quite young and probably attractive. She is thinking she's missing out on a lot of hot sex by being "tied down" to you.

3. She buys you the card and the wedding ring because she does NOT want to have to be a single mom with three kids to support. She likes the financial security of being married, but NOT the sexual exclusivity, the need to behave, the need to consider YOUR feelings and your (joint) marriage before she can do what she wants.

4. She wants to cake eat: she wants to live her single/drunk/partying/hot sex life with her friends, but ensure that she still has her home, bills paid, someone to watch the kids (for free!), someone to help make parenting decisions.

5. In my opinion, she doesn't love you anymore, she is merely comfortable in her lifestyle (financially). *THAT* is why she doesn't want you to date someone else, she's afraid you'll meet someone else and she'll have to split your paycheck with some other woman.

6. In my very jaded opinion, if you got run over by the bus and she was left with a huge wad of money, she'd be even happier than she is now.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't think money is an issue. She makes good money.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

What about points 1-4?



*Why don't you tell US what you believe is going on.*


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

Point 1: She was married before. She met her first husband at 12 years old, eventually formed an intimate relationship with him (he was 14), then got married at 19. They broke up before their marriage a couple of times and she got to experience other guys. They divorced 9 months later, then she hooked up with another guy and ended up living together, but she screwed around on him with about 3 - 4 other guys. She was with him about 6 months, then I met her. She was 21 at the time. We got married when she was 22. 

Points 2 - 4: I agree, I think that when she started going out with her friends after 10 years of marriage, all those guys at the bars dancing with her and most likely hitting on her made her feel wanted I guess. That's when the problems started.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

guitardude said:


> Point 1: She was married before. She met her first husband at 12 years old, eventually formed an intimate relationship with him (he was 14), then got married at 19. They broke up before their marriage a couple of times and she got to experience other guys. They divorced 9 months later, then she hooked up with another guy and ended up living together, but she screwed around on him with about 3 - 4 other guys. She was with him about 6 months, then I met her. She was 21 at the time. We got married when she was 22.


And you're surprised at her behavior now?

She isn't wife material. She married too young, too fast and you are too old. She wants to have fun with other guys and while she may not need your money you do serve some purpose (for now). You can either face this fact or continue to post on tam looking for a different answer.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GuitarDude, I get the sense that you are grasping for straws by looking for ways to save your marriage. From the information you have posted, your wife seems to have problems. The kind of problems that are not solvable by a loving husband. Clearly, you are a loving husband and really want to make this work.

It seems to everyone who has responded in all of the threads that your wife isn't capable of being the kind of wife you want, even as badly as you want her to be that wife.

If, as Kathybatesel suggests, your wife has suffered under the hands of her stepfather, the damage done to her is so deep that it will take her years of intensive, brutally honest, soul searching under the tuteledge of a highly qualified expert psychotherapist. Can she become the wife you want while being the wife she is? I don't think anyone knows that answer. And what happens to you and your children during her learning years? Again, there's no way to tell.

I think you need to cut to the chase and define your boundaries and expectations. I think you need to insist on ground rules and when they are broken, and you know they will be, what will be the consequences. I don't see any other way for you to maintain your sense of balance, your need for love, a committed partner, and regain the trust unless/until she enters rehab. I say rehab because she's going to have to relearn what love is, how to show love and how to get love.

I don't like suggesting you cut bait and run, but in this case I wonder if your wife has the ability to keep her skewed ideas and needs from infecting everyone around her. Furthermore, soul searching is painful and hard and people generally avoid it, unless forced into it. And even then, dipping a toe or two into the water and finding it too cold to be palatable is a common response to those who must come to terms with their own daemons, such as your wife has to face. With out a compelling and perhaps earth shattering reason to dive in, she's likely to dip and wade thus getting nowhere.

The most troubling aspect is her honesty, or lack thereof. At this point,, if she really wants to work this out and promises to enter therapy and abide by your rules of decorum, she must come clean with her past indiscretions. I don't see her as being capable of being honest with herself let alone you. Also, I don't see you being capable of truly discerning the truth from what she or you, wishes the truth to be. 

Good luck, be strong and feel confident that you have done all that you can to be a good man and a good husband. Now she must do the rest.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

I just had a long talk with my wife. She was adamant that she had never fooled around on me. I told her how disrespectful it was of her to be doing what she has been doing. She said that I had never fully explained to her how much it bothered me, and she didn't think of it being a big deal since she was doing it in front of me and with me also on the dance floor. As far as the hotel incident goes, she explained that she didn't want to have sex with the guy, she works night shifts and wasn't ready to go to bed yet because she's used to staying up all night and her roommate was tired so they went to his room instead to finish their conversation. 

I want to believe her, because she insisted she hasn't cheated on me. She said "believe me, I have had plenty of oppertunities to cheat on you, and I haven't. I just like having a good time". In her defense, she has always dirty danced, ever since I met her. 

The sad part of it now is, she said she has no feelings for me at all anymore. All of this little stuff that I've done wrong over the years and the way I've reacted to everything going on lately has taken a toll on her, and she's given up. She said she doesn't care anymore. "Go out and find a good woman, you deserve better; I obviously can't give you what you want".

I feel bad for our marriage. We had a strong, great marriage before, and it's fallen apart in the last 5 months. She says she has felt this way for a couple of years. I would have never known, because she never told me. I thought things were fine. 

I told her she is a good woman, a good person, how beautiful and sexy she is, and that I loved her and would do anything to make it work. She started crying. She has such low self-esteem that I feel she feels worthless, that she isn't a good wife. What to do now?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

guitardude said:


> I just had a long talk with my wife. She was adamant that she had never fooled around on me. I told her how disrespectful it was of her to be doing what she has been doing. She said that I had never fully explained to her how much it bothered me, and she didn't think of it being a big deal since she was doing it in front of me and with me also on the dance floor. As far as the hotel incident goes, she explained that she didn't want to have sex with the guy, she works night shifts and wasn't ready to go to bed yet because she's used to staying up all night and her roommate was tired so they went to his room instead to finish their conversation.
> 
> I want to believe her, because she insisted she hasn't cheated on me. She said "believe me, I have had plenty of oppertunities to cheat on you, and I haven't. I just like having a good time". In her defense, she has always dirty danced, ever since I met her.
> 
> ...


I may be repeating something someone else has said, and if I am I apologize, but here's my assessment:

Your wife is gassing your head up. She is in fact interested in fvcking other men, she told you she was. You just don't want to accept this is who she is. The tears and the feel sorry for me thing is more about keeping her security blanket in place. Make no mistake, she still wants to fool around, she just wants YOU to be okay with it so she can do it openly without any nasty guilt creeping up on her after the deed is done.

Your problem is you're hooked in by the very thing she is out there selling to the other men. The sex is so good, you can't see straight. The time you've invested in your relationship makes it hard for you to believe she's really this loose type of person who would engage in wreckless sexual behavior with strange men. I'll go further and say you bore her and she is a thrill seeking type of woman. It's almost the same high that clepto's get when they shoplift when she goes out and parties and flirts.

The question is this... what are you going to do with the information you already have? Are you prepared to live this way for the duration? She's shown you who she is. Now the ball is in your court. Accept it or leave her because you cannot. In my opinion if you stay and tolerate this you're only enabling her for more of the same. She sees it as a free pass to continue because why??? NO CONSEQUENCES. 

She needs to grow up. No doubt there. She needs counseling too to figure out why she's so unhappy and needs this kind of attention. Lots of unresolved issues here... and this isn't the time for you to help her throw a pity party and feel sorry for her. You need to man up.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

YOU are the ONLY person who believes this:

She was adamant that she had never fooled around on me. (Just like Clinton didn't 'have sex' with Lewinsky...what? it's ONLY oral SEX)
She said that I had never fully explained to her how much it bothered me (so she's a puppet, YOU control how she acts...darn you!)
she didn't think of it being a big deal since she was doing it in front of me and with me also on the dance floor (what, she can't tell the difference between groping her husband and groping stranger?)
As far as the hotel incident goes, she explained that she didn't want to have sex with the guy, she works night shifts and wasn't ready to go to bed yet because she's used to staying up all night and her roommate was tired so they went to his room instead to finish their conversation (even Motel 6 has a LOBBY!) 
*I want to believe her* (but you shouldn't, you SHOULD get tested for STDs...for your children's sake)
"I just like having a good time" (as defined by HER)
The sad part of it now is, she said she has no feelings for me at all anymore. All of this little stuff that I've done wrong over the years and the way I've reacted to everything going on lately has taken a toll on her, and she's given up. (again, SHE behaves poorly, and blames it ALL on YOU...it's called blame-shifting)

She said she doesn't care anymore. "Go out and find a good woman, you deserve better; I obviously can't give you what you want". (translation: I've already found what I want, free drinks from men, lots of admiration, and hot sex with no strings attached.....whoopee!)

I told her she is a good woman, a good person, how beautiful and sexy she is, and that I loved her and would do anything to make it work. She started crying. (She feels guilty, but NOT guilty enough to stop acting like a cheater!) She has such low self-esteem that I feel she feels worthless, that she isn't a good wife. What to do now? The ONLY person YOU can change is YOU. The only person who can change your wife is YOUR WIFE...and ONLY if she wants to through LOTS of HARD WORK and THERAPY.

You can ask your questions a dozen more times if you want, it IS your perogative. The answers are NOT going to change. Your wife is a serial cheater (pre-existing your marriage)...probably due to childhood trauma, but does *that* make it any more palatable?


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

You can't "nice" someone out of this kind of behavior. Begging, pleading, talking about the good old days, gifts..all of that will annoy her. In her mind, you're a pest. You're a wet blanket, someone who dampens her fun. You need to draw a boundary of what you'll accept AND stick to it. A boundary you don't defend is just an empty threat. Empty threats are meaningless. 

It looks to me like your wife checked out of this marriage a while ago. You didn't realize it. I think the age difference between the two of you is too big of a gap AND she's immature. Let her go. If you keep her, you'll have to act like a parole officer by constantly monitoring her. If it were me, I wouldn't want to live that way. Either someone is fully with me or not. I'm not one for GPS, voice activated recorders and other monitoring devices.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

None of us wanted to accept that our spouses were cheating and would probably never change. But at some point you're going to have to accept your reality. She is a serial cheater and is not going to change no matter what you do. And the reasons don't matter. Let her go and save yourself and your kids.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Your wife is f... Not being nice with your head. She is trying to blame you, because you failed to make your annoyance known to her, for her flirting and groping other men. Unreasonable, unacceptable and irrational! She is trying to make you believe that due to your years of controlling behavior, she has lost her love for you. Maybe there is an element of truth in there, maybe not. But the fact remains she left the marriage long before she ended the marriage.

I'm sorry for the pain you must feel right now. I wish for you to avoid bitterness later on, once you have gone through the emotional gamut and soul searching to identify what went wrong. I'm sure there are things you could have done better, but you did not cause this break up. 

Remember that, you did not cause this.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

guitardude said:


> I can read my wife pretty well, and I could tell that hurt her when I said that. That was the first time in the last 3 weeks that she showed any sign of emotion towards me.


Uhmmmm




guitardude said:


> Thanks all you ladies for the replies, especially the detailed one from AnonPink. That's what I wanted; an in-depth analysis of what's going on. My only conflict is,
> 1. Why did she buy me the card after that night out which said that "For my guy, I love you"
> 2. Why did she buy me a new wedding ring last month for Christmas (I had lost my ring years ago)
> 3. Why does she still hold me when we go to bed?
> 4. Why did she grimace when I told her we ought to think about dating other people if she wants her space?


These questions say no, you can't read her at all. She is a cake eater. She has a bed, a place to live, YOUR money to spend, lays all the marriage problems at your door and the enjoyment of other men. 

If I was in my late teens early twenties that would be an awesome arrangement. No rent, no bills, a door mat and multiple allowed sex partners, I'd hold you at night as well.

I hope you listen to Anon_Pink.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think you should let your wife go on and pursue her "fun" with other men...because you need to also go and find a woman who wants to be with you, ie: an AGE APPROPRIATE woman.

Are you really thinking that your wife hasn't already been screwing other guys?

Wow.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

1. I know she doesn't depend on me for money. She makes good money herself. That to me is a non-issue. I told her "Are you ready for a divorce, cause I am". She said "No".

2. Until I have PHYSICAL proof, I can't prove that she has everf cheated on me. The signs are there, but I don't have physical proof. The closest I've gotten was the hotel incident, but I screwed up and called her before anything could happen because I was so distraught. I should have let it go, then had the PI pretend he was hotel security and ask to check if everything was OK. Then I would have had physical proof.

3. Why is it that in these forums, when a spouse gets caught having an affair, the consensus is that it can be fixed with a lot of hard work, while my situation is a lost cause?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Because your wife shows no remorse, and has straight up asked you if she can sleep with other guys, making it sound like oh, once a month or so, she will pick a random new guy to sleep with. If she is telling you THIS much, then you can bet this is only the tip of the ice burg. I would bet that she has already been sleeping with at least one random guy per month, if not more. She was just trying to make the cuckolding official by getting your verbal permission.

She is a likely a serial cheater. There are not many stories like yours that are recovered.

Recovery requires a remorseful spouse who is ready and willing to do whatever is necessary to get their betrayed spouse to accept them back. YOUR spouse has "no feelings for you", according to her.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Ok if she hasn't cheated ask her to take a polygraph. By her reaction you may get an answer you won't like.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

guitardude said:


> 3. Why is it that in these forums, when a spouse gets caught having an affair, the consensus is that it can be fixed with a lot of hard work, while my situation is a lost cause?


I can imagine it feels that way. I think what everyone is agreeing on is that what you want from a wife, and the wife you describe are so fundamentally different it is highly unlikely YOU will ever get what YOU want. Add to that, the woman you describe has got some serious problems that will take years of hard work to resolve.

There are plenty of spouses who have posted about various troubles hoping to get advice to make it work and they've been advised to get the hell out. Because to stay, means the healthy spouse will be damaged physically, financially, socially, or emotionally. 

We, I think, all agree that should you choose to stay, you will have to learn not to enable her behavior, you will have to accept not having your needs met, you will have to doubt your own wisdom when you see one thing but she swears it's something else. This is not what a marriage is supposed to provide for us. It's supposed to make us stronger, better, more complete, wiser, more compassionate, more responsible. each person contributes to the healthy growth of the other. It's not always 50/50 but on the whole each person should be able to attribute positive growth to being married to their spouse.

What we are seeing from you is excusing her, minimizing the impact her behavior has on you, and worst of all, learning to accept blame when you are not at fault. Most of us call that brain washing but here on TAM they call it gas lighting.

Protect yourself first. Hire a PI and get proof. Once you have that, she will not be able to turn everything around and throw it back in your face.

The men here have excellent advice for preparing. Seek them out and follow their suggestions. They've been where you are. Of course, being men, they suck at being compassionate, so put an extra sweater on.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't know if this will change any opinions, but she only went out in 2 instances:

1) For about 5 weeks 2 summers ago. He friend at work moved away and after that, she stayed home and didn't go out anymore. I know that for a fact. We have 3 smaller children and there's no way that she would go out and leave them at home alone. She is a great mom, her kids mean the world to her.

2) Last summer, she went out for a period of about 5 weeks with a couple of new friends. After the hotel incident happened, she has never gone out without me. 

I can't even talk to her right now she's so distant towards me. Won't let me touch her, nothing. It hurts.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

And what did you do to deserve the silent treatment? Tell us please. I sure don't see a reason for it.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I'm sorry but I can't get past the I only had a conversation with the guy confession. She sold you a lie so big you can see it from space.

I'll tell you what, I'm not spending hours chatting it up with a man in my hotel room just for the hell of it. I'm a married woman myself and would never think of cheating on my husband, but you can bet if I was wilding out like she is he would at the very least be getting a happy ending. She thought she could get away with a freebie. She was right, you fell for her line. The PI even tried to tell you but you refuse to see.


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

She wasn't in his hotel room for hours. 10 minutes when I first called her, about another 5 minutes when I called the second time.

As far as the silent treatment, I know she is trying to hurt me for telling her we were more like roommates than husband and wife. I could tell that really pissed her off because she repeated it the next day.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I am really sorry this is happening to you, but dude, it's time to give up. If you wait for physical proof you could be waiting till hell freezes over. You're going to stress yourself totally out here.

It's time to move on. Divorce. I am sorry, but it is. The only relationships on here you will see people saying can be saved are the ones in which the WS is TRULY remorseful for what they did. And your wife isn't. At all.

No woman would ever act like she is unless they knew they had their husband totally gobsmacked.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Let me copy for you all the parts in your first post that are big red flags.


1. I'm quite a bit older than her; I am 50, she is 34.

(see my note below)



2. I'll be lucky if I get a kiss from her once a month (unless it's a quick goodbye kiss as she's leaving for work). She's not affectionate at all, but I knew this from before and have learned to live with it.
That's just how she is. Our sex life is great!

(your sex life is great, even though she will not kiss you at all, I presume not during sex either?) 




3. I also told her that she needed to see a psychiatrist because of past issues before we were married that have never gone away (she was abused by her stepdad).

(I assume you mean she was sexually abused by her step-dad. Do you not see the problem with the fact that she married a much older man?)




4. She brought up that maybe we should get divorced if she couldn't come to terms with all of this. She basically said "I need to figure out who I am; you need to leave!".

(how much clearer does she need to be?)




5. So here I am 3 days later, staying at a friends house, letting her figure out what she wants to do. She didn't give me a date for me to come back.

(this is shown her that you are willing to do anything no matter how poorly she acts and no matter what she says or does)




6. I order her food for her: She told me that she's tired of me telling the waiter/waitress what she is having; "I have my own mouth, I can order myself!" To me it's just common courtesy for the man to order.

I order her beer for her at the bar: Same as above with same reaction.

(probably time to stop acting like her daddy, since in her world, that means an abuser)




7. I walk in front of her, not with her: Many times, definitely guilty of that

"You walk away when I think that you're behind me": Guilty of that too. If I see something I like, I'll mosy off and she'll say, "where did you go, I thought you were behind me"

She stated that she felt like I was like her father, and she wanted some space to figure out who she is. I don't consider myself a controlling person; maybe she does.

(and here she is saying it to you straight up to stop being her daddy)
(and by the way, why on earth would you walk ahead of her anyway? that's just weird)




8. She started going out to the bars fairly frequently while I stayed at home with the kids.

(here you say "frequently" but later you say it was only once or twice)




9. ...especially after she and her sister went to a party at a guys house who invited then to go after the bars closed and she didn't come home until 4:30 in the morning. She ended up being Facebook friends with him. In her defense, I don't think she ever contacted him.

(how many young moms with 3 kids at home go out and stay out until 4:30 am at some guy's house? really, c'mon now. you "think" she never contacted him. :scratchhead




10. After about 5 weeks of this, *she sits me down one day and says: "Would you mind if I have sex with other guys*; It's only sex, it doesn't mean anything". I asked her how she would do this, she said "I'll just get a guys phone number, and when the urge arrises, maybe once a month, I'll go over to his house and F*ck him. No emotional ties whatsoever, it's only sex". I asked her if I could do the same thing; she said "No, you would get too emotional and get attached to the girl".

(REALLY!?!?! why in the world would you just "get over" this?)




11. Last summer in July, we had 3 soccer coaches from England staying at our house for a week. One of the guys was really attractive, and she just swooned over this guy. She tried to change her work schedule to stay home, didn't sleep during the day when she was working night shift, etc. She then took them to the bar one night, I showed up about Midnight just as she was rubbing her rear in some other guys c*ck.

Man was I dissappointed. What really hurt me was that she payed him more attention in 1 week than I get all year!

(you were "dissapointed" that your wife swooned around an English soccer coach and did some nasty with him in a bar, which you witness - plus likely many other things you did not witness - but only "disappointed". can you see why your wife already expects you to be cuckolded? it is apparently written on your forehead)




12. She then starting going to the bars again, this time with a couple of local friends. She was going out once to twice a week, coming home late, having fun and dirty dancing.

(again, later you say this only happened a couple of times, here you are saying she was going once or twice per week)




13. The guy her friend was with went back to his room, while my wife and her friend and this other guy went to my wife's room (she was rooming with her friend, he was rooming with his). He went to the bathroom, and then my wife and him went to his room. I was freaking out. I waited about 10 minutes, the called back to her room.

I waited another 15 minutes, then called her again. I couldn't stand it any longer. I told her there was a detective that had been following her and she was busted. She lied and said there wasn't another guy, he must have had the wrong room. He verified she was indeed with the guy. She hung up on me, then she texted "We didn't have sex". She told me that they were just talking, she wasn't tired yet and wanted to stay up a little bit longer.

Needless to say I wasn't very happy. When she came home the next day, we had a big fight, but at the end, we made up. I wanted to believe she was telling the truth.

(you say yourself that you WANTED to believe she was telling the truth...until you want to believe the ACTUAL truth instead, then you will continue to believe her words instead of the ACTUAL truth)




14. I was bummed out for about a month, but got over it. 

(showing yet again that you are asking to be cuckolded)





15. Then in December we went out for her birthday and were having a good time. She asked if she could dance with other guys. I said no problem; like I said, I'm not a jealous guy. We were both on the dance floor, and she started dancing with this one guy. Next thing I know, she had her hands all over the guys *ss and was feeling him up on the dance floor. I was dissappointed. She told me later that's how she always has danced. She just likes dirty dancing and it doesn't mean anything.

(do I need to say it again?)





16. Example: We were at Walmart a couple of weeks ago and I was in the checkout line. She snuck off because the person behind the register was a girl. We struck up a conversation about the weather and work. She was fat and pregnant, married, definitely not attractive. My wife comes up from behind and says "Didn't know I was behind you, did you". She gave me a dirty look and walked away.

(do you realize that cheaters are almost always very jealous? it is because they know what people are capable of, ie: CHEATING)




Now that you've read your original post how I read it, do you see your own story a bit differently? As an outsider, I see nothing but huge waving red flags with you standing under them going "what flags?"


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

I know what I wrote has red flags written all over it. Let me clarify about her going out. She went out for about 5 weeks, once a week, 2 summers ago, so a total of 5 times.

This last summer, she went out for a total on 5 weeks, 1-2 times a week, for a total of maybe 7 - 8 times


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Do you think it matters how many times she went out, when all the evidence of her cheating is staring you in the face? Why split hairs here?

You sure don't seem to want to know the truth yet.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

guitardude said:


> 1. I know she doesn't depend on me for money.


 "Depend" and "spend" are not synonyms. I am saying, without saying, you are a doormat.


> 3. Why is it that in these forums, when a spouse gets caught having an affair, the consensus is that it can be fixed with a lot of hard work, while my situation is a lost cause?


Why is it you keep starting threads to get a different answer?

IMO, we are saying YOU are acting in a manner that makes it a lost cause. 2 years of the same thing and you can't see why you are getting the same responses?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

guitardude said:


> i know what i wrote has red flags written all over it. Let me clarify about her going out. She went out for about 5 weeks, once a week, 2 summers ago, so a total of 5 times.
> 
> This last summer, she went out for a total on 5 weeks, 1-2 times a week, for a total of maybe 7 - 8 times


so WHAT?!?!?!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I hate that we can't post in all caps!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Guitardude.... You have three threads....with a total of 129 posts...subtract your 25 replies....that's 104 posts from people that have been through it all telling you the same thing. Yet, you keep hoping for a different answer. TAM specializes in the unvarnished truth, if you are looking for a fairy tale read the Grimm Brothers.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

guitardude said:


> She wasn't in his hotel room for hours. 10 minutes when I first called her, about another 5 minutes when I called the second time.
> 
> As far as the silent treatment, I know she is trying to hurt me for telling her we were more like roommates than husband and wife. I could tell that really pissed her off because she repeated it the next day.


You weren't there after she hung up the second time were you? so you have no idea what went on with this guy. 

Go ahead and believe her. I'm not married to her. A spouse that asks would it be ok to do other men shouldn't be married. Period.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I know it's difficult for you to accept what others are seeing. You love her, you want to be with her, you don't want to divorce her. She's a much younger woman who is probably in better physical shape than women your age. You're going to miss that. I get that. But you need to realize in that both in words AND deeds, she is making it crystal clear to you that she doesn't consider herself a married woman. She may have a ring on her finger, but she's acting like a single woman on the prowl. And in doing so, she's created a one-sided open marriage. 

I have a question for you. IF you found physical evidence, say you caught her in the act, would you even then end the marriage? Is there anything she could do that would make you leave her?


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## guitardude (Jan 30, 2013)

Sure, if I had physical evidence, I would definitely end the marriage, because then I would know beyond a reasonable doubt that she lied to me. I'm in contact with one of the guys here and he is helping me out on this.


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

I don't really think you need actual evidence of cheating.

Things are bad enough as it is.

I agree that a large part of it is the age difference. 

There is no real reason for her to divorce if she can do what she likes and gets away with it.


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