# Parental Alienation



## SecondTime'Round

I have a 13 year old son and an almost 15 year old daughter (next month). We have 50/50 custody and a set schedule. 

Yesterday afternoon I forwarded a text reminder to my ex about my son's orthodontist appointment this Thursday night because he has him on Thursdays. He informed me he could not take him, and in the ensuing conversation about that, I found out he's going on vacation Thursday morning. I told him I'd keep the kids Thursday night, and he said no, they would be "supervised" and would be fine. I reminded him that our signed agreement states that when one of us can't have them on our scheduled night, the other parent is to be given first right of refusal, so I would be keeping them. (Side note: I later learned that the "supervisor" was going to be his girlfriend's 18 year old son!) He said fine, enjoy it while it lasts because things will be changing very soon, or something like that. A very cryptic threat with lots of winky emoticons. I asked him what he meant by that, and he would not respond. 

I was freaking out, became very anxious.

Later on, after my kids were home and we were done with dinner, I took my daughter aside. I try my hardest to NOT involve them in anything to do with fights between my ex and me, but it was affecting my ability to function. 

I told her that her dad had made some cryptic threats via text I didn't understand what he meant and I asked if she knew if he was going to try to get custody of them or something. She said, "Not both of us. Just one of us. He said if he has full custody of one of us he won't have to pay child support."

I asked if she was unhappy being at my house, and she said, "Mom, I think you'd be able to tell if we were unhappy." I told her she's old enough to decide where she wants to live, and I would hate it if she chose to not live with me, but I can't tell her not to. I said I understand her horses are at her dad's and that's a huge part of her life, and if she wants to be there more than here, I understand. She said, "Well, not in the winter, but maybe in the summer..." 

I told her that child support is the law, and that nearly all divorced parents have some sort of child support agreement. It's not always just the man, and I mentioned one of my girlfriends (who she knows) has to pay her ex husband child support because she makes more than him. She was SHOCKED that it was a law. I can only imagine what her dad says to her about me and child support.

My ex makes over six figures and owns a home worth nearly half a million dollars. He has no credit card debt or school loans (didn't go to college). He can afford the $400/month he bullied me "down" to. And, I allow him to pay me directly instead of having it taken out of his paycheck. If we went through the courts and I got the full amount, he'd be paying three times that much. I told all of this matter of factly to my daughter. I asked her to remember that there are two sides to every story, and I'm not the monster her dad makes me out to be. I told her she'd probably be shocked at all of the horrible things her dad texts to me, but I wasn't going to show her the texts. 

We frequently have words about child support because he cannot stand that he has to pay it. He orders me to not call it child support, but to call it revenge money. Says I'm entitled, bitter, and greedy. I'm sure she hears ALL of this from him and more.

This morning I said to her, "Honey, do me a favor. Please don't let your dad pressure you into doing anything you don't want to do. " She said, "Oh I won't. Right now I really don't know what to believe." I said, "Well, ask me anything you want, I'm not hiding anything." I mentioned again about how child support is the law, and if she wanted to make sure, to Google it herself. I told her that I would hate it if she wasn't with me half the time and I didn't think it was fair at all that her dad was putting this pressure on her and putting her in the middle . She said right now she's just taking her time, thinking about it, etc. 

She wasn't upset, and was in a good mood, but this of course worries me. She already has Generalized Anxiety Disorder and had an anxiety attack in school so bad a few weeks ago I had to pick her up and take her home. I REALLY wish she'd go to a counselor. 

I still am just dumbfounded that her father would do this to her .


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## New_Beginnings

I'm sorry, I honestly couldn't read through all of this as that's a lot to inform your child and I don't think it's ok to make her feel she has to choose. That's really what I got, also sharing an adult friend of yours who is paying child support again is not a child's business. I'm sorry you're going through this but please find somewhere else (besides your children) to discuss frustration of adult issues.


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## SecondTime'Round

New_Beginnings said:


> I'm sorry, I honestly couldn't read through all of this as that's a lot to inform your child and I don't think it's ok to make her feel she has to choose. That's really what I got, also sharing an adult friend of yours who is paying child support again is not a child's business. I'm sorry you're going through this but please find somewhere else besides your children of adult issues.


So, I should have just let her believe her dad's side of the story and risk her believing all of his BS to the point of her wanting to go live with him full time?


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## New_Beginnings

If there is a problem with him not sticking to your agreement, take it up with the court.


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## SecondTime'Round

New_Beginnings said:


> If there is a problem with him not sticking to your agreement, take it up with the court.


The court would not help in this situation. She's old enough to decide and he's trying to manipulate her.


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## New_Beginnings

SecondTime'Round said:


> New_Beginnings said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, I honestly couldn't read through all of this as that's a lot to inform your child and I don't think it's ok to make her feel she has to choose. That's really what I got, also sharing an adult friend of yours who is paying child support again is not a child's business. I'm sorry you're going through this but please find somewhere else besides your children of adult issues.
> 
> 
> 
> So, I should have just let her believe her dad's side of the story and risk her believing all of his BS to the point of her wanting to go live with him full time?
Click to expand...

No. I would take this up with the courts, with her anxiety disorder you and the father should be ashamed. It's time to let the law decide what's best for the children. I'm really sorry you're going through this.


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## New_Beginnings

SecondTime'Round said:


> New_Beginnings said:
> 
> 
> 
> If there is a problem with him not sticking to your agreement, take it up with the court.
> 
> 
> 
> The court would not help in this situation. She's old enough to decide and he's trying to manipulate her.
Click to expand...


Children do end up seeing through the manipulation. I know it's frustrating and upsetting but try your best not to allow adult issues be your children's problem. She doesn't need to worry about her parents, she should focus on being a child. She loves both of you and doesn't want to disappoint either I'm sure. Her focus should be school and being able to handle her anxiety. Stress of her mother ect will not help.


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## jld

I cannot believe the selfishness of your ex, whittling you down to $400. Are you sure agreeing to that was in your best interest?


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## Pluto2

STR, you wrote that you hate to involve her in your dispute, and then you did just that. You are putting your daughter in the middle as much as your ex. Your conversation about you would be sad if she didn't live with you is just as emotionally manipulative as her father and the horses. Please try to stop that part. You can tell her that her father currently pays less than the law requires, but that should be it. 

Your ex can file any paper he likes, doesn't mean he will prevail. And unless your incomes are identical, his plan on having one child and no support won't come to fruition. Go to the court's website in your state and fill out the worksheet.

You are still allowing him to manipulate you. It doesn't matter what he thinks about child support-that's why we have courts. It doesn't matter what he thinks about you-you aren't his spouse anymore. What matters is you and your children. Don't sign anything, don't agree to anything. Don't believe what he says.


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## bkyln309

I honestly think you got her too involved especially if she already has anxiety. I think kids get more than we think they do. She will decide where she wants to live but making her take sides is not good.But I think you laid alot on her. 

I know you are upset at the ex. But keep your issues between the adults.


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> I cannot believe the selfishness of your ex, whittling you down to $400. Are you sure agreeing to that was in your best interest?


Well, at the time it was fine, and I agreed to it because he threatened to get rid of my daughter's horses if I didn't.

But, now I'm making a lot less money than I was then, which is a whole 'nother issue I'm dealing with aside from all of this. In December he told me he was not giving me another dime in child support if I didn't provide him with my earnings for 2015 (I'm self employed). I didn't do that, but did forward him the email I'd just received telling me I'd be making significantly less in 2016, and gave him the choice of continuing to pay, or go to court based on my new salary and he'd be paying the full amount required by law, and it would be deducted from his check because I'm so tired of fighting about it with him. He agreed to continue to pay, but apparently his new plan is to get my daughter to live with him full time.


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## SecondTime'Round

bkyln309 said:


> I honestly think you got her too involved especially if she already has anxiety. I think kids get more than we think they do. She will decide where she wants to live but making her take sides is not good.But I think you laid alot on her.
> 
> I know you are upset at the ex. But keep your issues between the adults.


I'm normally much better than this about not involving them. A few weeks ago, my counselor was encouraging me to sit down with both kids and have a heart to heart about parental alienation (from another issue that happened). I really didn't think it was a good idea, and I didn't do it. I just let it go. This time, I didn't. It's so hard when they are being fed lies and believing them .


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## bkyln309

SecondTime'Round said:


> I'm normally much better than this about not involving them. A few weeks ago, my counselor was encouraging me to sit down with both kids and have a heart to heart about parental alienation (from another issue that happened). I really didn't think it was a good idea, and I didn't do it. I just let it go. This time, I didn't. It's so hard when they are being fed lies and believing them .


I get it because my ex did the same thing. The kids ended up in therapy due to massive anger towards me. But the therapist really got the kids thinking and they figured it out quick. 

The key was it didnt come from me. The therapist helped them to realize what was going on (they are 7 and 9). So every time the ex tried to get the kids to turn on me, there was nothing but positive things they had to say because I did not criticize their dad whom they loved. They didnt feel conflicted against me because they never felt like I was against my ex. They did realize the ex had it in for me. (I cannot stand my ex btw)

I would say get your kids into therapy for the divorce and let the therapist guide them to the realization of whats going on. You wont win in the end if you go after their dad. I also told my kid that my ex was only paying $250/month for both of them. But I waited until they asked. They asked because the ex was complaining about me and said I was taking all his money. They ask me how much I was taking from him. Again they quickly realized what parent was telling them the truth.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

My Dad was like your ex, I honestly wouldn't worry about it manipulating your DD if you kept out of it. 

I saw my Mom and her struggles, she didn't have to tell me. 
I saw my Dad being acting like a child about paying support and I saw it for what it was. 

My Mom always stayed back, even encouraged me to see him, treat him the same as before the divorce, don't be angry because it was all just about the two of them and he loved me, etc.

If she had involved me too I would have had the same feelings towards her as I did him. 

Kids don't like having to pick sides, they don't like being put in the middle of it. They need to just be kids. 

I eventually cut my Dad out of my life completely for man years because of how he behaved during that time, my Mom stayed out of my choice and only supported whatever I wanted to do. That's what I needed.


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> I'm normally much better than this about not involving them. A few weeks ago, my counselor was encouraging me to sit down with both kids and have a heart to heart about parental alienation (from another issue that happened). I really didn't think it was a good idea, and I didn't do it. I just let it go. This time, I didn't. It's so hard when they are being fed lies and believing them .


If the counselor recommended it, I would do it.

Also, do you have a lawyer?

If you can afford it, or maybe even if you can't, I would take your ex to court. I think you are getting ripped off. I have a hard time believing the court would not side with you.

Did you use a lawyer for the divorce, or was it a DIY filing?


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## Pluto2

Based on what your DD stated, I'm not so sure she believes him. Yes, she wants access to the horses and she admits that. But she also seems savvy enough know that dangling them in front of her is a bribe, but that doesn't change her real desire to want the horse.

Can you get the kids into counseling so they have to tools to say to Dad "I don't want to hear anything negative about Mom-I love you both" or "don't put me in the middle of your financial dispute with Mom"


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## bkyln309

jld said:


> If the counselor recommended it, I would do it.
> 
> Also, do you have a lawyer?
> 
> If you can afford it, or maybe even if you can't, I would take your ex to court. I think you are getting ripped off. I have a hard time believing the court would not side with you.
> 
> Did you use a lawyer for the divorce, or was it a DIY filing?



I would only say follow the advice of your counselor if he/she is also seeing the kids. Because the counselor is hearing your POV and not the kids. Its is important the kids have their own counselor so their issues can be addressed from their POV. Their needs can be very different than yours.

Your counselor is to help you cope


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## jld

bkyln309 said:


> I would only say follow the advice of your counselor if he/she is also seeing the kids. Because the counselor is hearing your POV and not the kids. Its is important the kids have their own counselor so their issues can be addressed from their POV. Their needs can be very different than yours.
> 
> Your counselor is to help you cope


I would think a counselor would only recommend something that would stand up as valid in court. Otherwise they could surely face some sort of censure.

This is a professional, certified counselor, correct?


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> If the counselor recommended it, I would do it.
> 
> Also, do you have a lawyer?
> 
> If you can afford it, or maybe even if you can't, I would take your ex to court. I think you are getting ripped off. I have a hard time believing the court would not side with you.
> 
> Did you use a lawyer for the divorce, or was it a DIY filing?


We got divorced in 2010, and at the time I used a lawyer (he didn't). At that time, child support was taken out of his check, but still not at the full amount (but more than now). Over the years he bullied me into taking it OUT of the courts and letting him just pay me. He never missed a payment. We reconciled in 2014, which didn't last because he became an ******* again. (Biggest mistake of my life). We had not actually remarried, thank God. When we split the second time, we signed off an agreement I wrote (and we haggled about). I did consult with an attorney (ex doesn't believe me about that for some reason) at that time, so yes, I do have an attorney, although it's not the same one as when we got divorced.


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## arbitrator

*You need to be relating this to your attorney! And ASAP!

You would be surprised at how few family court judges would condone this belligerent, bullying behavior on his part!

Most of them would put him in his place and have him wearing his a$$ for a hat!!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

Pluto2 said:


> Based on what your DD stated, I'm not so sure she believes him. Yes, she wants access to the horses and she admits that. But she also seems savvy enough know that dangling them in front of her is a bribe, but that doesn't change her real desire to want the horse.
> 
> Can you get the kids into counseling so they have to tools to say to Dad "I don't want to hear anything negative about Mom-I love you both" or "don't put me in the middle of your financial dispute with Mom"


My daughter was in counseling a year ago, but only for 4 or 5 months. She was just wanting to end it when her counselor moved, and she said she didn't want a new one. I've been working on her to be willing to go again, and she's starting to come around. She didn't have a bad experience, and in fact liked it, so I think she'll get there. My son does not want to go to counseling at all.


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> We got divorced in 2010, and at the time I used a lawyer (he didn't). At that time, child support was taken out of his check, but still not at the full amount (but more than now). Over the years he bullied me into taking it OUT of the courts and letting him just pay me. He never missed a payment. We reconciled in 2014, which didn't last because he became an ******* again. (Biggest mistake of my life). We had not actually remarried, thank God. When we split the second time, we signed off an agreement I wrote (and we haggled about). I did consult with an attorney (ex doesn't believe me about that for some reason) at that time, so yes, I do have an attorney, although it's not the same one as when we got divorced.


Okay, here's my personal opinion: Go right by the law. No giving up of child support or alimony. You take whatever the law says you are entitled to. Get him into court and get that money. It is legally yours.

STR, do not give in to bullying, hon. Stand up for yourself! That shows a great example to your kids!

And honestly, seeing that kind of action on your part would be an inspiring, empowering example for your daughter. Could help with her anxiety.


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> I would think a counselor would only recommend something that would stand up as valid in court. Otherwise they could surely face some sort of censure.
> 
> This is a professional, certified counselor, correct?


Yes, and she did said she might not be "right." She said I know my kids best, and would know if and when that talk should happen. It didn't feel right so it didn't happen.


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## bkyln309

jld said:


> I would think a counselor would only recommend something that would stand up as valid in court. Otherwise they could surely face some sort of censure.
> 
> This is a professional, certified counselor, correct?


I dont think court is a higher priority of the mental well being of the children. 

If she wants to go to court and use the results of the counseling fine. But the court will follow the law. She can fight for more money because he earns more or she has the majority of the time. 

Again her counselor and one for the kids have different goals. And no therapist would recommend something without talking to the kids first.

I know you want whats best for your kids. I feel for you! I understand

And if you can go get more from him and you are up for the "fight" go for it.


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yes, and she did said she might not be "right." She said I know my kids best, and would know if and when that talk should happen. It didn't feel right so it didn't happen.


Well, I doubt she would recommend something that would not stand up in court. Again, she has her license to protect.

It sounds like she was throwing out the idea, but leaving it up to you. I would interpret that as court-acceptable, but still up to your discretion.


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> Okay, here's my personal opinion: Go right by the law. No giving up of child support or alimony. You take whatever the law says you are entitled to. Get him into court and get that money. It is legally yours.
> 
> STR, do not give in to bullying, hon. Stand up for yourself! That shows a great example to your kids!
> 
> And honestly, seeing that kind of action on your part would be an inspiring, empowering example for your daughter. Could help with her anxiety.


I hear what you're saying, but I'm very fearful of what he'd do if I did that. I mean, what he'd say to the kids. I think it would do more harm than good because he'd just get angrier and angrier. He's so angry and hateful that I've told several people if I disappear or end up murdered, it's because he hired someone to do it.


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## ButtPunch

I agree that you involved your daughter too much. Keep it between you and the ex.

With that being said, it's probably just a threat. Even if it isn't, most states determine 
child support based on income. If your D still went to live with him you would probably 
still get $400.00 a month unless you are a very high earner as well. 

I would let the ex know you can still take him back to court anytime to have the child support adjusted.

If he wants to upset the apple cart, then he is welcome too.

Parental alienation like that is despicable IMO.


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## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> I agree that you involved your daughter too much. Keep it between you and the ex.
> 
> With that being said, it's probably just a threat. Even if it isn't, most states determine
> child support based on income. If your D still went to live with him you would probably
> still get $400.00 a month unless you are a very high earner as well.
> 
> *I would let the ex know you can still take him back to court anytime to have the child support adjusted.*
> 
> If he wants to upset the apple cart, then he is welcome too.


Oh, I've told him this several times. And I remind him that part of that will include informing the court that he makes thousands and thousands under the table, cash, unreported. He claims I'd never be able to prove that. My attorney disagreed. Of course my ex doesn't believe that because he doesn't believe I have an attorney.


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> I hear what you're saying, but I'm very fearful of what he'd do if I did that. I mean, what he'd say to the kids. I think it would do more harm than good because he'd just get angrier and angrier. He's so angry and hateful that I've told several people if I disappear or end up murdered, it's because he hired someone to do it.


Well, that is appalling, that he gives you the air of being able to be that hostile. Like Pluto said, what a bully.

But you can take back your power! You do not have to accept to be intimidated!

I would go right by the court if I were you. If he becomes violent, you can apply for a restraining order.

Document any abusive language or intimidating behavior he uses towards you or the kids. Present it to your lawyer. He or she will know what to do with it.

You must stand up for yourself, STR. Standing up for yourself is also standing up for your kids. Strong mothers make for strong kids!


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Well, that is appalling, that he gives you the air of being able to be that hostile. Like Pluto said, what a bully.
> 
> But you can take back your power! You do not have to accept to be intimidated!
> 
> I would go right by the court if I were you. If he becomes violent, you can apply for a restraining order.
> 
> Document any abusive language or intimidating behavior he uses towards you or the kids. Present it to your lawyer. He or she will know what to do with it.
> 
> You must stand up for yourself, STR. Standing up for yourself is also standing up for your kids. Strong mothers make for strong kids!


I agree with this but if you are happy with the status quo I would do nothing. Sometimes not reacting to a threat is the best way to handle a threat. 

If your daughter does make a move, and your ex then wants to play 
with the child support then your hand will be forced to go back to court. 

Worrying doesn't help and in the end it will all work itself out.


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## Pluto2

You can't control what he says to the kids.

You can control-through the courts-his legal obligation to share in the proper support of his children. And if he doesn't want to believe that you have an attorney, too bad for him. He obviously sees child support as vengeful ex-spouse money. Its not. Its your children's right to receive that money and you ought to fight for them.


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## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I agree with this but if you are happy with the status quo I would do nothing. Sometimes not reacting to a threat is the best way to handle a threat.
> 
> If your daughter does make a move, and your ex then wants to play
> with the child support then your hand will be forced to go back to court.
> 
> Worrying doesn't help and in the end it will all work itself out.


I disagree.

STR, I would react to every threat by documenting it and then showing it to your legal advocate. It is not acceptable for your ex to engage in intimidating behavior towards you or the kids. 

The more we stand up to and expose bullying, the less it will be tolerated. If we remain silent, the bully retains power.


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## ButtPunch

My point is that if she gets aggressive like suggested she will be 
back in court with a lawyer sucking her dry. I have seen people spend
$50,000.00 in legal fees over custody/child support cases. All for what,
an extra $200.00 a month. Not to mention the aggravation and lost time.

I agree document everything. Talk to Lawyer. I see his threats as empty
and would treat them as such. Bullies often talk big but have no substance 
behind them.

Right now....OP are you happy with the arrangement except for the idiot ex's threats?


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## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> My point is that if she gets aggressive like suggested she will be
> back in court with a lawyer sucking her dry. I have seen people spend
> $50,000.00 in legal fees over custody/child support cases. All for what,
> an extra $200.00 a month.
> 
> I agree document everything. Talk to Lawyer. I see his threats as empty
> and would treat them as such. Bullies often talk big but have no substance
> behind them.
> 
> *Right now....OP are you happy with the arrangement except for the idiot ex's threats?*


Yes.


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## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yes.


Then I would stop letting him bully you. Quit engaging. Use the "I am sorry you feel that way" "Are you done" cliches and until something happens that forces your hand, try not to let him get to you. 

Whatever you do, try not to put the kids in the middle. They will eventually see thru everything.


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## jld

A good lawyer is not going to rob her. And standing up to the ex even once might change his tune.

I would go back to court and get the money you are owed. I have no idea why people accept to follow anything other than the law, especially someone in your situation, STR.


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## Heatherknows

SecondTime'Round said:


> I have a 13 year old son and an almost 15 year old daughter (next month). We have 50/50 custody and a set schedule.
> 
> Yesterday afternoon I forwarded a text reminder to my ex about my son's orthodontist appointment this Thursday night because he has him on Thursdays. He informed me he could not take him, and in the ensuing conversation about that, I found out he's going on vacation Thursday morning. I told him I'd keep the kids Thursday night, and he said no, they would be "supervised" and would be fine. I reminded him that our signed agreement states that when one of us can't have them on our scheduled night, the other parent is to be given first right of refusal, so I would be keeping them. (Side note: I later learned that the "supervisor" was going to be his girlfriend's 18 year old son!) He said fine, enjoy it while it lasts because things will be changing very soon, or something like that. A very cryptic threat with lots of winky emoticons. I asked him what he meant by that, and he would not respond.
> 
> I was freaking out, became very anxious.
> 
> Later on, after my kids were home and we were done with dinner, I took my daughter aside. I try my hardest to NOT involve them in anything to do with fights between my ex and me, but it was affecting my ability to function.
> 
> I told her that her dad had made some cryptic threats via text I didn't understand what he meant and I asked if she knew if he was going to try to get custody of them or something. She said, "Not both of us. Just one of us. He said if he has full custody of one of us he won't have to pay child support."
> 
> I asked if she was unhappy being at my house, and she said, "Mom, I think you'd be able to tell if we were unhappy." I told her she's old enough to decide where she wants to live, and I would hate it if she chose to not live with me, but I can't tell her not to. I said I understand her horses are at her dad's and that's a huge part of her life, and if she wants to be there more than here, I understand. She said, "Well, not in the winter, but maybe in the summer..."
> 
> I told her that child support is the law, and that nearly all divorced parents have some sort of child support agreement. It's not always just the man, and I mentioned one of my girlfriends (who she knows) has to pay her ex husband child support because she makes more than him. She was SHOCKED that it was a law. I can only imagine what her dad says to her about me and child support.
> 
> My ex makes over six figures and owns a home worth nearly half a million dollars. He has no credit card debt or school loans (didn't go to college). He can afford the $400/month he bullied me "down" to. And, I allow him to pay me directly instead of having it taken out of his paycheck. If we went through the courts and I got the full amount, he'd be paying three times that much. I told all of this matter of factly to my daughter. I asked her to remember that there are two sides to every story, and I'm not the monster her dad makes me out to be. I told her she'd probably be shocked at all of the horrible things her dad texts to me, but I wasn't going to show her the texts.
> 
> We frequently have words about child support because he cannot stand that he has to pay it. He orders me to not call it child support, but to call it revenge money. Says I'm entitled, bitter, and greedy. I'm sure she hears ALL of this from him and more.
> 
> This morning I said to her, "Honey, do me a favor. Please don't let your dad pressure you into doing anything you don't want to do. " She said, "Oh I won't. Right now I really don't know what to believe." I said, "Well, ask me anything you want, I'm not hiding anything." I mentioned again about how child support is the law, and if she wanted to make sure, to Google it herself. I told her that I would hate it if she wasn't with me half the time and I didn't think it was fair at all that her dad was putting this pressure on her and putting her in the middle . She said right now she's just taking her time, thinking about it, etc.
> 
> She wasn't upset, and was in a good mood, but this of course worries me. She already has Generalized Anxiety Disorder and had an anxiety attack in school so bad a few weeks ago I had to pick her up and take her home. I REALLY wish she'd go to a counselor.
> 
> I still am just dumbfounded that her father would do this to her .


A girl should live with her mother and you SHOULD take him to court and get the right amount garnished from his checks. Don't let him bully you. You need the money.


----------



## MommaGx3

Ugh, time for a bit of reality check for your kids I think. In a fair, objective manner. My x and I divorced when the kids were tweens. We divorced amicably and started at 50/50. In 2010 I remarried and we moved to a city about an hour away. The girls chose to move with me. Still, I asked for no child support. But, teenagers are expensive and my current husband started becoming frustrated with the lack of contribution from my x. Finally around 2014, I told him if he didn't start helping with expenses I would have to pursue child support. He started passing over 100 here or 200 there. My current husband and I now have a baby, with an 18 year old, 15 year old and infant, we just were getting too tight with finances. My x would take the girls to water parks, buy them toys, take them out to fun things. They'd come home and complain about how we didn't do anything like that. I finally had to explain that because dad didn't pay for utility bills, groceries, doctor's appointments cell phones, etc that he had more disposable cash that I did. I also sat them down and let them know that I was going to be asking their father for child support. I let them know that by law, parents are entitled. I gave them a couple of URLs that they could investigate. I also let them know that they were not part of the financial discussions that I would be having with their dad. I explained that he might get frustrated with me and that he might make comments, but they needed to understand none of it was about emotions or feelings or even to make his life harder, it was purely a matter of us being able to balance the costs. They are of the age that they need to understand financial responsibilities. My husband and I had money in savings and we got a home equity loan to cover a difference and we are putting a deck on our house, my X made comments like, "I'm paying for that deck. Your mom is asking for huge amounts of money. Your mom blah blah blah". My girls feel guilty but they share these comments. When they shared the comment about how he thinks he's paying for the deck, I said, "that's a shame. It's not true. We used savings and we refinanced the house, our mortgage is now lower and we used some of the funds for the deck. The money your father supplies goes towards the necessities you need. He had nothing to do with the deck." 

I don't say bad things about their dad. But, it is also reasonable to create a fair playing field so to speak. My older daughter got real huffy around age 16 and did the "I want to go live with dad". We talked, she explained, I said ok. She moved in... 3 months later she was back. Didn't much like living with dad. Now my 15 year old wants to live with dad. I told her if she wants to go have time with her father, that she absolutely can. But, the motive there is the children want to do this, rather than trying to manipulate them into doing something that creates a benefit. 

You are in a tough spot. What a jerky thing for him to do. I'm sorry you are in this situation  hugs


----------



## MommaGx3

New_Beginnings said:


> No. I would take this up with the courts, with her anxiety disorder you and the father should be ashamed. It's time to let the law decide what's best for the children. I'm really sorry you're going through this.


Actually, I would disagree. I have PTSD in remission and both of my daughters have anxiety issues. I have found understanding actually aids with anxiety. My younger daughter has it much worse because she also has Asperger's. When her dad says something to her that triggers her anxiety, she absolutely tells me. She is looking to me for clarification on if she should be anxious or not. 

Part of my job in teaching her how to be a mature, functioning adult is helping her identify issues and showing her how to deal and cope with those issues. However, with that said, I have to keep it as emotionless as possible. Simply a statement of fact. 

This is an example of the types of discussions we have:

Daughter: "Mom, I don't want you to say anything, but I'm really stressing. Dad said, xyz. Don't be mad, but xyz."

Me: "Honey, it's ok. I'm not mad at all. It's ok. Did dad say why xyz?"

Daughter: "Yeah, he said it was because of abc."

Me: "Ah, I see. And that got your anxiety up a bit?"

Daughter: "Yeah. I mean. I feel bad. I don't want to hurt you or hurt daddy."

Me: "I understand, kiddo. You love me. You love your dad. We both love you. This is one of those situations where he and I differ though.

How about I give you a little context as to where that probably came from ok? 
1. This happened
2. Then this happened
3. As a result xyz"

So for our financial matters. I literally said, "So kiddo, you know how you want that cosplay outfit for anime detour? And in the past I have only been able to get you certain parts? Well, part of the reason for that is that in our budget, extra items come out of our 'free money'. The free money is what is left after our bills. WHen there are 4 people in a house in the winter, showering, washing clothes, leaving lights on - utility bills like water, energy, etc go higher. When you go over on the data on your phone or your sister does, the bill goes higher. No reason to feel stressed about it, that's just what happens and you have to be responsible to cover it. I'm going to ask your father to start contributing some money toward the expenses we have. By law, since you both live with me full time, he is supposed to contribute."

-- I then went on the child support site and pulled the list from the government as to what child support covers.

She is learning life lessons and has her own account. So by taking this situation and turning it into a learning experience. She understood. We were then able to talk about the tangible bits... money, buying things, doing things... versus the feelings. Dad will be upset. Dad might make comments. But it's ok, she doesn't have to feel responsible. 

This actually helped her anxiety. WHen she doesn't understand something but she knows there is an "issue" it just makes her anxiety worse.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> A good lawyer is not going to rob her. .


Really?


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> Really?


An _ethical_ lawyer. 

And I really think standing up to him even once might make him rethink his ways.

I just think you have to stand up for yourself, STR. A legal advocate could help with that. You with the law behind you would be a force for your ex to reckon with.


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> An _ethical_ lawyer.
> 
> And I really think standing up to him even once might make him rethink his ways.
> 
> I just think you have to stand up for yourself, STR. A legal advocate could help with that. You with the law behind you would be a force for your ex to reckon with.


I don't think the OP's husband is going to roll over and hand over the money as they have a signed agreement in place. 

This means any changes are going to have to be court ordered.

This means two lawyers fighting it out in court. 

*This costs big money.*


.....and if the OP's husband has deep pockets and is vengeful he could make her life miserable with years of custody/support litigation 

The OP has stated that parental alienation is what is bothering her the most and that she is happy with her current monetary arrangement. Why rock the boat?


However.....if the OP's Daughter decides to live with her father and he tries to use this as an excuse to not pay the agreed $400 of support. Well....court will be a necessary endeavor then.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I don't think the OP's husband is going to roll over and hand over the money.
> 
> This means any changes are going to have to be court ordered.
> 
> This means two lawyers fighting it out in court.
> 
> *This costs big money.*
> 
> 
> .....and if the OP's husband has deep pockets and is vengeful he could make her life miserable with years of custody/support litigation
> 
> The OP has stated that parental alienation is what is bothering her the most and that she is happy with her current monetary arrangement. Why rock the boat?


Can anyone in the legal profession respond to this?

I just want to see the law followed, and STR's rights respected.
@bigfoot @EleGirl


----------



## happy as a clam

SecondTime'Round said:


> ...I was freaking out, became very anxious.
> 
> ...I took my daughter aside. I try my hardest to NOT involve them in anything to do with fights between my ex and me, but it was affecting my ability to function.
> 
> ...I asked if she knew if he was going to try to get custody of them or something.
> 
> ...I asked if she was unhappy being at my house...
> 
> ...I told her she's old enough to decide where she wants to live, and I would hate it if she chose to not live with me...
> 
> ...I told her if she wants to be there more than here, I understand.
> 
> ...I told her that child support is the law...
> 
> ...I told all of this matter of factly to my daughter.
> 
> ...I asked her to remember that there are two sides to every story, and I'm not the monster her dad makes me out to be.
> 
> ...I told her she'd probably be shocked at all of the horrible things her dad texts to me, but I wasn't going to show her the texts.
> 
> ...This morning I said to her, "Honey, do me a favor. Please don't let your dad pressure you into doing anything you don't want to do. "
> 
> ...I said, "Well, ask me anything you want, I'm not hiding anything."
> 
> ...I told her that I would hate it if she wasn't with me half the time and *I didn't think it was fair at all that her dad was putting this pressure on her and putting her in the middle*.



STR... The irony is, you yourself are putting your daughter in the middle of this by having this very conversation.

Reread the excerpts above. Your comments are clearly coming from a place of fear and anxiety. It's perfectly normal for you to feel that way, but it's not ok for you to drag her into it. IMHO you really laid a big fat guilt trip on her. She shouldn't be dealing with any of this. These are all ADULT problems between you and your husband. She should be free to make her choice without pressure from either of you.



SecondTime'Round said:


> I still am just dumbfounded that her father would do this to her .


I guess I'm dumbfounded that _either_ of you would do this to her .


----------



## SecondTime'Round

happy as a clam said:


> SGC... The irony is, you yourself are putting your daughter in the middle of this by having this very conversation.
> 
> Reread the excerpts above. Your comments are clearly coming from a place of fear and anxiety. It's perfectly normal for you to feel that way, but it's not ok for you to drag her into it. IMHO you really laid a big fat guilt trip on her. She shouldn't be dealing with any of this. These are all ADULT problems between you and your husband. She should be free to make her choice without pressure from either of you.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I'm dumbfounded that _either_ of you would do this to her .


I respect your thoughts, but I don't really see it this way. My daughter had no clue what child support really was and was making her decision based on the vitriol she hears from her father, ONLY. Now that I've informed her what child support actually IS, I feel like I've better armed her to make a decision about what SHE wants, not what her father wants. I hope that it helps her anxiety about the situation, not makes it worse. As @MommaGx3 pointed out, more information (in this case, TRUE information) often helps people with anxiety deal with things better! 

In case it wasn't glaringly obvious, she gets the anxiety from me.


----------



## Eagle3

OP, happy as a clam and some others are spot on. The things you are upset about your ex doing is the same thing you are as well just in a different matter. Asking your daughter where she would want to live but throwing in how upset you would be if she lived with her father is also putting her in a tough spot. Don't sacrifice long term success with your kids to win a short term battle with your ex. Its not worth it. Stay true to your beliefs and in the end your kids will see that when they get older. Let him dig his own grave. I know its tough to swallow now but thru the years you will get repaid with your kids in how they see how you both were during this time. 

Now as far as the finances go that is something you should handle without getting the kids involved or telling them who is not paying this or asking that. That is not a place for the kids to be involved in. If you are not getting your fair share and are unhappy with the pay from your ex go thru the proper channels and get it worked out. But I get the feeling your finance setup wasn't bothering you till you got word maybe one of the kids would want to live there for a bit. Don't let that happen. Only go thru that if you are not getting what you want in the payments. Your ex seems to be a jerk to you but I don't get the vibe he is a bad father and that is important. I only say that as your daughter even admitted maybe she would like to split her time with you and over there. 

You seem like a very caring mother and good person, your kids will see that. Stay at your core values and later on your kids will see who was playing games and not being fair. Don't force feed them evidence they are already seeing whats happening believe me. I hope things get better for you but mostly the kids are ok.


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## Pluto2

jld said:


> Can anyone in the legal profession respond to this?
> 
> I just want to see the law followed, and STR's rights respected.
> 
> @bigfoot
> @EleGirl


In my jurisdiction, family law attorneys charge $200-250 per hour for office time, $350-450 per hour for courtroom time.

Its not that a good attorney would rob her, but there is no question that it is expensive.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Eagle3 said:


> OP, happy as a clam and some others are spot on. The things you are upset about your ex doing is the same thing you are as well just in a different matter. Asking your daughter where she would want to live but throwing in how upset you would be if she lived with her father is also putting her in a tough spot. Don't sacrifice long term success with your kids to win a short term battle with your ex. Its not worth it. Stay true to your beliefs and in the end your kids will see that when they get older. Let him dig his own grave. I know its tough to swallow now but thru the years you will get repaid with your kids in how they see how you both were during this time.
> 
> Now as far as the finances go that is something you should handle without getting the kids involved or telling them who is not paying this or asking that. That is not a place for the kids to be involved in. If you are not getting your fair share and are unhappy with the pay from your ex go thru the proper channels and get it worked out. But I get the feeling your finance setup wasn't bothering you till you got word maybe one of the kids would want to live there for a bit. Don't let that happen. Only go thru that if you are not getting what you want in the payments. Your ex seems to be a jerk to you but I don't get the vibe he is a bad father and that is important. I only say that as your daughter even admitted maybe she would like to split her time with you and over there.
> 
> You seem like a very caring mother and good person, your kids will see that. Stay at your core values and later on your kids will see who was playing games and not being fair. Don't force feed them evidence they are already seeing whats happening believe me. I hope things get better for you but mostly the kids are ok.


If my daughter had come to me and said, "Mom, I miss my horses like crazy and you know how much they help with my anxiety, I'd really like to stay at dad's house more", I'd be sad and disappointed, but would totally respect her wishes. But, this was not her idea! It's her dad's idea, and he knows she has him on a pedestal and can manipulate her. It SCARES me that this is what she's learning about how to respond to a man. 

I really do NOT think she's going to make a decision to be there full time. For one thing, he leaves for work at 4 in the morning, and I doubt she's going to want to be in the house completely alone in the dark without her brother there. And, I would not feel comfortable about that either. I don't even like it when both kids are there together, but there's nothing I can do about it. She's also very happy at my house. It's not like we have a tumultuous relationship. I have a beautiful home, two of her pets are here, etc. 

I feel so angry at my ex for putting this weight on her shoulders.


----------



## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> I respect your thoughts, but I don't really see it this way. My daughter had no clue what child support really was and was making her decision based on the vitriol she hears from her father, ONLY. Now that I've informed her what child support actually IS, I feel like I've better armed her to make a decision about what SHE wants, not what her father wants. I hope that it helps her anxiety about the situation, not makes it worse. As @MommaGx3 pointed out, more information (in this case, TRUE information) often helps people with anxiety deal with things better!
> 
> In case it wasn't glaringly obvious, she gets the anxiety from me.


Have you had a chance to talk to your counselor since this came up?

Again, this is a professional, licensed counselor, correct?

ETA: Okay, just saw it happened yesterday afternoon. I would contact your lawyer to see about rectfying the whole situation regarding child support, even retroactively, if possible, and just about the situation in general. Your ex does not sound trustworthy at all.

And I would speak to your therapist. Tell her exactly what you told us, or have her read your opening post. She will be best able to advisedly on what would have been the best to do, and what to do moving forward.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Pluto2 said:


> In my jurisdiction, family law attorneys charge $200-250 per hour for office time, $350-450 per hour for courtroom time.
> 
> Its not that a good attorney would rob her, but there is no question that it is expensive.


I appreciate the post on the rates. I think a lawyer, or someone who has experience with the legal system in various divorce scenarios, might be able to give STR some helpful advice on the situation in its entirety. Just my thought, STR.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> Have you had a chance to talk to your counselor since this came up?
> 
> Again, this is a professional, licensed counselor, correct?
> 
> ETA: Okay, just saw it happened yesterday afternoon. I would contact your lawyer to see about rectfying the whole situation regarding child support, even retroactively, if possible, and just about the situation in general. Your ex does not sound trustworthy at all.
> 
> And I would speak to your therapist. Tell her exactly what you told us, or have her read your opening post. She will be best able to advisedly on what would have been the best to do, and what to do moving forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no retroactive case here. They have a signed agreement in place.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> Have you had a chance to talk to your counselor since this came up?
> 
> Again, this is a professional, licensed counselor, correct?
> 
> ETA: Okay, just saw it happened yesterday afternoon. I would contact your lawyer to see about rectfying the whole situation regarding child support, even retroactively, if possible, and just about the situation in general. Your ex does not sound trustworthy at all.
> 
> And I would speak to your therapist. Tell her exactly what you told us, or have her read your opening post. She will be best able to advisedly on what would have been the best to do, and what to do moving forward.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, she's a professional licensed counselor. I am only seeing her on an every other week schedule, and my next appointment isn't until next week. I usually go on Tuesdays (but not today). I was just thinking about calling her and seeing if I could get in tomorrow or Friday. I can't do Thursday. 

I'm not up for a fight about money. I don't want more money from him. I just want all of the hate he spews to stop.


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> There is no retroactive case here. They have a signed agreement in place.


May very well be true. But asking could not hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> I'm not up for a fight about money. I don't want more money from him. I just want all of the hate he spews to stop.


I think that can be done by not engaging. There are some communication experts here on TAM that can really help you deal with a spouse like yours.


----------



## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yes, she's a professional licensed counselor. I am only seeing her on an every other week schedule, and my next appointment isn't until next week. I usually go on Tuesdays (but not today). I was just thinking about calling her and seeing if I could get in tomorrow or Friday. I can't do Thursday.
> 
> I'm not up for a fight about money. I don't want more money from him. * I just want all of the hate he spews to stop.*


I think to do that, a show of strength on your side would be helpful. And getting a lawyer involved could be part of that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> I think that can be done by not engaging. There are some communication experts here on TAM that can really help you deal with a spouse like yours.


I disagree. I think he is a bully, and I don't think standard communication techniques work with bullies.

If you do not stand up for yourself, STR, he will continue to take advantage of you. Your anxiety, and that of your daughter, will continue, or perhaps even increase.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/63357-time-regroup-move.html

This is a long read but it would be helpful i think. ReGroup had an angry wife and posters taught 
him how to communicate with her. Mavash, Conrad and others really change the entire dynamic
just with communication.


----------



## jld

When threats are empty, it is fine to simply not engage. But I think this man is genuinely threatening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> When threats are empty, it is fine to simply not engage. But I think this man is genuinely threatening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How so? He hasn't done anything but threaten. Empty ones at that.

Don't get me wrong the parental alienation is despicable but what can she do about that. She can't force him to do anything. Sad fact of life is that some people choose to be poor parents and they usually don't even see it. 

Lawyer cannot do anything for her but start a legal process to try and get more money. Will the money difference be enough to justify the cost. Who knows? 

As long as the OP's husband thinks he can still emotionally hurt her he will continue to do so. Going to court gives him more ammo. She needs to become indifferent to his threats. Are you done? These type answers will end the dynamic.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> When threats are empty, it is fine to simply not engage. But I think this man is genuinely threatening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think he is, too. I mean, it was pretty much proven it wasn't an empty threat when my daughter told me what his agenda is. He's not just threatening, he's actively plotting.

I'm not sure what seeing an attorney right now would help with since my daughter is 14 (almost 15) and not 7. If she was 7, this would not even be happening, but since she's at the age where she's legally allowed to decide where she lives, it is happening. I think in her brain she's probably thinking, "If I go to live with Dad full time, he no longer has to pay child support, so things will be calmer and he won't be so mad at mom all the time." (Even though I don't think he'd have to pay zero, he's delusional). Seeing an attorney right now would only "solve" money issues, not what's really bothering me, and that's the welfare of my child and also my emotional well being! More money from him isn't going to help any of that.

There's also an issue of me actually caring what other people think of me. I'm sure that he spews as much hate and lies about me to friends and his family, and even though I no longer speak to his family, I care what they think of me. My former SIL was my best friend since age 12 and she's really my only tie to the family, and I was thinking of messaging her and setting the record straight about a few things. Our relationship is very, very strained because I felt abandoned by her during the divorce (she recognized this and apologized years later), but we are still friends on Facebook. I know I should not care what his family, or anyone, thinks about me, but I do. 

OK now I'm rambling.


----------



## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think he is, too. I mean, it was pretty much proven it wasn't an empty threat when my daughter told me what his agenda is. He's not just threatening, he's actively plotting.
> 
> I'm not sure what seeing an attorney right now would help with since my daughter is 14 (almost 15) and not 7. If she was 7, this would not even be happening, but since she's at the age where she's legally allowed to decide where she lives, it is happening. I think in her brain she's probably thinking, "If I go to live with Dad full time, he no longer has to pay child support, so things will be calmer and he won't be so mad at mom all the time." (Even though I don't think he'd have to pay zero, he's delusional). Seeing an attorney right now would only "solve" money issues, not what's really bothering me, and that's the welfare of my child and also my emotional well being! More money from him isn't going to help any of that.
> 
> There's also an issue of me actually caring what other people think of me. I'm sure that he spews as much hate and lies about me to friends and his family, and even though I no longer speak to his family, I care what they think of me. My former SIL was my best friend since age 12 and she's really my only tie to the family, and I was thinking of messaging her and setting the record straight about a few things. Our relationship is very, very strained because I felt abandoned by her during the divorce (she recognized this and apologized years later), but we are still friends on Facebook. I know I should not care what his family, or anyone, thinks about me, but I do.
> 
> OK now I'm rambling.


I am sorry you are going thru this because I understand the fear you have of maybe losing some custody with your daughter. 

It is pretty common for this to happen when divorced kids are older and legally can make up their own minds. I promise you the grass isn't always greener and a lot of them come back. Happened to my next door neighbor.

As far as support goes, you have the upper hand. You may have to go to court but you will win in the end.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

I just looked at an child support calculator and even if he does succeed in getting her, he wouldn't be off the hook with child support. For just one child (my son), I'd be "entitled" (hate using that word) to $850/month. If he succeeds in his quest to get her to live with him, it would be very tempting to get the child support adjusted. But, then it WOULD be "revenge money" and I don't want to be that person, either.

I emailed my counselor to ask if she can see me tomorrow.


----------



## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> I just looked at an child support calculator and even if he does succeed in getting her, he wouldn't be off the hook with child support. For just one child (my son), I'd be "entitled" (hate using that word) to $850/month. If he succeeds in his quest to get her to live with him, it would be very tempting to get the child support adjusted. But, then it WOULD be "revenge money" and I don't want to be that person, either.
> 
> I emailed my counselor to ask if she can see me tomorrow.


Here's the rub. If he succeeds in getting her to live with him, cuts off support to you then you have no other choice but to go to court. And if it goes to court I would go for the full amount entitled.

Now if she wants to live with him and he continues to pay the agreed amount then that's a different story. You really have no control on where she wants to live if that is how your state sees it.


----------



## ButtPunch

I would not threaten to take him to court in an attempt to 
keep custody of your daughter. 

That would look like you are using your daughter as a pawn.

Sadly.....It sounds like that is what he is doing.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> I would not threaten to take him to court in an attempt to
> keep custody of your daughter.
> 
> That would look like you are using your daughter as a pawn.
> 
> Sadly.....It sounds like that is what he is doing.


Oh, no, I won't do that because he'd just tell her and make things worse for her. He thinks he's smarter than everyone (with his high school education and terrible grammar) so I'm 99.99% sure he's never even talked to an attorney about this or looked at an online calculator. He just thinks he knows he wouldn't have to pay child support because that's the way HE thinks it should be.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

STR...deeply sorry you AND your kids are in this situation. One of the reasons I like the idea of allowing the law be your boundaries is that it helps someone who struggles to stand up for themselves, but you do have to weight the costs. With that said... you can still choose to educate yourself further on how to deal with this A$$. Some of my favorite resources are 

Boundaries by Townsend
Navigating Narcissistic Predicaments
Emotional Blackmail (this one is key)
and the website Out of the FOG for definitions of abusive behaviors. (and this one is key)

He uses emotional leverage to control you. You can learn to live deleveraged. When my H was picking those poor behaviors I gave my son voice to stand up to it and I gave myself voice to stand up to it. There was a time when we were both scared of him. That is no longer the case. When I was growing up, my mother told me to shut up and take it. The importance of keeping the image of family was more important than abuse in the home. When I realized my son was afraid of his Dad to an unhealthy degree, I promised him that he and I would sit down and tell him together and ask him to fix it. I wasn't going to make the same mistake my mother did. There may come a time when the conversation comes where you tell your daughter "I've been on a path to break free from abusive behavior for a long time now, to break this cycle, and these are the behaviors that are no longer acceptable from your Dad." Define them for her, otherwise she will end up with an abuser like her father. Its time to lay the foundation of abuse education with her so that she will steer clear of abusive persons, especially a spouse. Some other resources are in my signature link.... on of them being "Safe People." Help her see the difference.


----------



## happy as a clam

SecondTime'Round said:


> I'm not sure what seeing an attorney right now would help with since my daughter is 14 (almost 15) and not 7. If she was 7, this would not even be happening, but since she's at the age where she's legally allowed to decide where she lives, it is happening.


Bingo.

Do not waste your time calling an attorney. The courts don't care whether or not your ex-husband is a manipulative jerk; they would only get involved at this point if there is neglect, physical abuse, or drugs/illegal activity.

Your daughter is the exact age mine was when my ex decided to be a total d*uchebag and flex his muscles. Custody cases are notoriously long and drawn out; by the time it would even get before a judge your daughter would be nearly a legal adult, 18, at which point this all goes away anyway. ButtPunch and Pluto are correct -- no need to rack up unnecessary legal fees.

Having said that, your ex is sneaky enough to try and pull a fast one. So be on the lookout for any false allegations, trumped up "altercations" between you and your daughter, lies, etc. Your daughter will of of course dispute any of this so he is wasting his time.

In an ideal situation your daughter will continue to spend half her time at your place and half her time at his. And one last thing... make sure all communications with him are by email, not text or phone call. Document, document, document. 

If he is foolish enough to pursue this in court, you could certainly try to renegotiate the child support at that time. And I definitely would.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

SecondTime'Round said:


> I just looked at an child support calculator and even if he does succeed in getting her, he wouldn't be off the hook with child support. For just one child (my son), I'd be "entitled" (hate using that word) to $850/month. If he succeeds in his quest to get her to live with him, it would be very tempting to get the child support adjusted. But, then it WOULD be "revenge money" and I don't want to be that person, either.
> 
> I emailed my counselor to ask if she can see me tomorrow.


I actually was wrong about my calculation since I didn't calculate what I'd owe him in child support, and I think the calculator I used only takes into account full custody, not half that I have for my son. So, it might actually just break even, so he's right that he wouldn't have to pay child support (or much at all) if he gets her full time.


----------



## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> I actually was wrong about my calculation since I didn't calculate what I'd owe him in child support, and I think the calculator I used only takes into account full custody, not half that I have for my son. So, it might actually just break even, so he's right that he wouldn't have to pay child support (or much at all) if he gets her full time.


The only way this would be possible is if you make the same amount of money assuming you have 80/20 with your son and he gets 80/20 with your daughter.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> The only way this would be possible is if you make the same amount of money assuming you have 80/20 with your son and he gets 80/20 with your daughter.


Now I'm confused. We have 50/50 with both kids now, and as far as I know, he's not trying to get my son away from me. He's also only 13. And no, we do not make the same. Hard to say exactly how much I'll make since I'm self employed and get paid based on the work I produce, but it's safe to say I'll probably make at least 40K less than him, and it may actually end up being half of what he makes, hard to say in January. If stuff like this keeps happening to completely mess with my concentration/productivity, it will be half of what he makes!


----------



## Heatherknows

SecondTime'Round said:


> I just looked at an child support calculator and even if he does succeed in getting her, he wouldn't be off the hook with child support. For just one child (my son), I'd be "entitled" (hate using that word) to $850/month. If he succeeds in his quest to get her to live with him, it would be very tempting to get the child support adjusted. But, then it WOULD be "revenge money" and I don't want to be that person, either.
> 
> I emailed my counselor to ask if she can see me tomorrow.


...take the money. If you want to feel better about it sock some of it away in a college fund for the kids.


----------



## Heatherknows

SecondTime'Round said:


> Now I'm confused. We have 50/50 with both kids now, and as far as I know, he's not trying to get my son away from me. He's also only 13. And no, we do not make the same. Hard to say exactly how much I'll make since I'm self employed and get paid based on the work I produce, but it's safe to say I'll probably make at least 40K less than him, and it may actually end up being half of what he makes, hard to say in January. If stuff like this keeps happening to completely mess with my concentration/productivity, it will be half of what he makes!


You need to sit down with a lawyer and get some solid advice. Kids should be with a loving mother who can take care of them. Most women make better caretakers and kids usually run to mommy when things get bad. It's natural. That being said...get as much money as you can. Don't be a fool.


----------



## jld

Heatherknows said:


> You need to sit down with a lawyer and get some solid advice.


You're singing my song, Heather. At worst she pays for an hour of his or her time and is told nothing can be done. 

I am glad to hear you may be getting in to see your counselor soon, STR.


----------



## EnigmaGirl

> You need to sit down with a lawyer and get some solid advice. Kids should be with a loving mother who can take care of them. *Most women make better caretakers* and kids usually run to mommy when things get bad. It's natural. That being said...get as much money as you can. Don't be a fool.


This is so incredibly sexist and biased and such a terrible thing for anyone to say.

There is zero evidence to suggest that women make better caretakers than men. Fathers are equally important in children's lives as mothers are. I'm seriously disturbed by any woman who underestimates the role that a father plays in a child's life.

There is nothing "natural" about the stating that men can't nuture children the same way women can. Absolute gender biased, sexist crap.

That being said, its equally pathetic when a man tries to manipulate a custody situation to avoid paying money. Both parents, unless there's an abuse situation, should have equal access to the children...that's what's best for the emotional and mental health of the kids...period.


----------



## ButtPunch

Statistics show that single dads do a better job of raising their kids than single moms do. 

I do understand that the statistics are skewed because the single dads that do have full custody are usually really awesome but low in numbers.

Anyways I thought the statement was sexist and ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> Statistics show that single dads do a better job of raising their kids than single moms do.
> 
> I do understand that the statistics are skewed because the single dads that do have full custody are usually really awesome but low in numbers.
> 
> Anyways I thought the statement was sexist and ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe it. I only know a handful of full time single dads (or near full time if they're not widowers), and they are all wonderful fathers.


----------



## Heatherknows

EnigmaGirl said:


> There is nothing "natural" about the stating that men can't nuture children the same way women can. Absolute gender biased, sexist crap.


I disagree. The majority of men feel their role is in the workplace and will put work before children. Women usually put their children first. I don't care what statistics or media is saying now. I'm talking about real world experiences. That being said I do feel fathers are extremely important in the raising of children and SHOULD be more actively involved in the day to day mundane tasks of child raising. Like driving the kids to activities and making them dinner etc.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

Heatherknows said:


> I disagree. The majority of men feel their role is in the workplace and will put work before children. Women usually put their children first. I don't care what statistics or media is saying now. I'm talking about real world experiences. That being said I do feel fathers are extremely important in the raising of children and SHOULD be more actively involved in the day to day mundane tasks of child raising. Like driving the kids to activities and making them dinner etc.


I accept that's been your experience and what you've observed. The circles in which I interact haven't provided me with the same perspective, thankfully.


----------



## jld

Are you able to get in today to see your therapist, STR?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> Are you able to get in today to see your therapist, STR?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for asking . No, she can't see me until Friday at 3:30 . 

Had a very, very rough night last night, like crying to the point of hyperventilating. I hadn't slept well at all the night before, so I think that didn't help. I'm feeling a bit more calm today, just really sad. 

I have a tendency to catastrophize things in my head, which is why I really need to see my counselor.


----------



## jld

I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how vulnerable you feel to your ex right now. 

You can write it out here, if you think it would help. Otherwise, I am glad to hear you are feeling calmer.

Still would like to see you getting your lawful amount of child support, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MommaGx3

SecondTime'Round said:


> Thanks for asking . No, she can't see me until Friday at 3:30 .
> 
> Had a very, very rough night last night, like crying to the point of hyperventilating. I hadn't slept well at all the night before, so I think that didn't help. I'm feeling a bit more calm today, just really sad.
> 
> I have a tendency to catastrophize things in my head, which is why I really need to see my counselor.


Hopefully she can help ground you. I hate when my anxiety goes into overload. I suffer from extreme paranoia when it happens and it's very doom and gloom in my head. Which makes it incredibly difficult for rational thought or other people to rationalize with me  

I'm so proud of you for recognizing it though. At least you have that little bit saying, "I know what this is. I know I need help."

Take a deep breath. Find something funny to watch or read for 10 or 15 minutes. 

While it feels like it now. It is not the end of the world. You are strong and will overcome this challenge.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> I'm so sorry. I can only imagine how vulnerable you feel to your ex right now.
> 
> You can write it out here, if you think it would help. Otherwise, I am glad to hear you are feeling calmer.
> 
> *Still would like to see you getting your lawful amount of child support, though.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I think I am going to make an appointment after talking to my counselor on Friday. Not necessarily to go after the full amount, but to talk about what the legal process would have to be in the event this ends up happening, since we have a signed agreement that outlines 50/50 custody. Additionally, part of the reason I was so upset last night was I was thinking about all of the little things I'd worry about if she was home alone so much, which she would be if this happens. Early, early mornings alone, end of the day/after school alone, what if she wakes up sick at 4:30 a.m. and nobody is home, the house is not at all secure and easily broken into (150++year old farm house), who would help her edit her writing papers, etc. So many other things that I doubt she's even thought of . I don't think it's in her best interest to be alone so much as a 15 year old with anxiety and ADD. So, this is why I want to meet with an attorney. Part of that discussion will of course involve child support money under multiple scenarios.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

MommaGx3 said:


> Hopefully she can help ground you. I hate when my anxiety goes into overload. I suffer from extreme paranoia when it happens and it's very doom and gloom in my head. Which makes it incredibly difficult for rational thought or other people to rationalize with me
> 
> I'm so proud of you for recognizing it though. At least you have that little bit saying, "I know what this is. I know I need help."
> 
> Take a deep breath. Find something funny to watch or read for 10 or 15 minutes.
> 
> While it feels like it now. It is not the end of the world. You are strong and will overcome this challenge.


Thank you. I think you understand perfectly. It's not helping that my Zoloft is running out and I'm halving/spacing out pills until my dr. appointment next week to get it refilled. I found myself having a ****tail in the middle of the day yesterday to calm myself down, which is of course not the answer.


----------



## ButtPunch

SecondTime'Round said:


> I actually was wrong about my calculation since I didn't calculate what I'd owe him in child support, and I think the calculator I used only takes into account full custody, not half that I have for my son. So, it might actually just break even, so he's right that he wouldn't have to pay child support (or much at all) if he gets her full time.


I was thinking about this and you are correct.

He would need a court order but having 50/50 and 80/20 with your daughter could lighten his support load. 

Did you say you ran it on your states calculator. You do have to take the difference from what you would owe him out of what he would owe you. He may have a case if your daughter decides to live with him.

Is the 50/50 custody with your son actually 50/50? I mean you each have him 84 hours a week.


----------



## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> I was thinking about this and you may be correct.
> 
> He would need a court order but having 50/50 and 80/20 with your daughter could lighten his support load.
> 
> Did you say you ran it on your states calculator. You do have to take the difference from what you would owe him out of what he would owe you. He may have a case if your daughter decides to live with him.
> 
> Is the 50/50 custody with your son actually 50/50? I mean you each have him 84 hours a week.


Yes, I used a state (PA) calculator, but it appears to calculate only on full time custody, not 50/50 so it's confusing. 

And yes, we currently have exactly 50/50 custody of both kids, so it would remain 50/50 with my son.


----------



## Pluto2

Keep breathing STR, you can make it through this, too.


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## jld

It is so sad that his only motive in this seems to be saving money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MommaGx3

My Zoloft is up to 150 mg now. Due to paranoia and anxiety in my dreams. I was at 100 for a long time. But, periodic, therapeutic adult beverages can be helpful. The key is not too much, not too many, not too often. But having a glass of wine, in a bath with aroma bubbles and reading a zombie apocalypse book always puts me in a good frame of mind


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> It is so sad that his only motive in this seems to be saving money.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is. I wouldn't be so upset if my daughter and I had a volatile relationship, or if she was unhappy here, etc. We NEVER argue, she never even gets disciplined because she's so easy! She's affectionate and interactive and respectful and I love having her around.


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## Eagle3

OP, one thing that could work in your favor for payments is that your job is not a steady income from what I gather. That it can vary depending on what is paid to you. I experienced this when my wife was dealing with child support with her daughters father. The issue was he hardly worked and when he did it was under the table. He knew this and since he had her some of the time he asked for more money.

Even though we paid for everything for her daughter and I mean everything none of that mattered. They simply put in the formula what he made and what my wife made. Nothing else was factored in which sucked. Needless to say he made out very nice in the deal. And I can tell you from what you said here what you are getting is low. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get double from what you are now.


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## SecondTime'Round

Eagle3 said:


> OP, one thing that could work in your favor for payments is that your job is not a steady income from what I gather. That it can vary depending on what is paid to you. I experienced this when my wife was dealing with child support with her daughters father. The issue was he hardly worked and when he did it was under the table. He knew this and since he had her some of the time he asked for more money.
> 
> Even though we paid for everything for her daughter and I mean everything none of that mattered. They simply put in the formula what he made and what my wife made. Nothing else was factored in which sucked. Needless to say he made out very nice in the deal. And I can tell you from what you said here what you are getting is low. I wouldn't be surprised if you could get double from what you are now.


Yes, I agree, but it's not about the money. I've actually been considering if I should just say screw it to child support at all because I'm SO sick of his abuse over the issue.


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## ButtPunch

I don't want to assign motives here but the girl may actually want to go live with her Dad. 

Scary as that sounds it is common for teenagers to do this.

Of course, Dad sees the financial benefit of this as well. 

I am certain the girls horses are a big attraction in the matter as well. 

This is just my opinion but if you drag your hubby back into court over what seems would be minimal money since
you have shared 50/50 custody your daughter may just pack her sh*t and go. They will villify you. You say she is contemplating it even now to save her dad the money. 


I would do as the others say and get some help for the anxiety. It is probably making matters worse than they actually are.


----------



## jld

@Eagle3

Your wife had to pay him child support? They had a 50/50 split?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yes, I agree, but it's not about the money. I've actually been considering if I should just say screw it to child support at all because I'm SO sick of his abuse over the issue.


Please don't give up, STR. Giving in to his bullying helps no one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ButtPunch

jld said:


> @Eagle3
> 
> Your wife had to pay him child support? They had a 50/50 split?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happens all the time with a 50/50 split.

Whoever makes more money has to pay the other support. Gender don't matter.


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## happy as a clam

MommaGx3 said:


> But having a glass of wine, in a bath with aroma bubbles and reading a zombie apocalypse book always puts me in a good frame of mind


This sounds great, and I don't even have anxiety!!

_*happy as a clam off to find a zombie apocalypse book now... _


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## jld

I think her anxiety is coming from the bullying. And her daughter is learning from her mom to give in to it, which is not helpful.

I think the only answer is to stand up, STR. That is the cure for your and her anxiety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

ButtPunch said:


> I don't want to assign motives here but the girl may actually want to go live with her Dad.
> 
> Scary as that sounds it is common for teenagers to do this.


Yes, I have considered this, but I can't really see this being something she wants that bad in cold months in Pennsylvania. She doesn't really ride in this weather because of horse blankets, etc. Summer, yes, and she knows she's free to be there as much as she wants then or I will take her over whenever since I work from home. 

But, yes, I have considered this and that's when I start to worry about all of the things she has not thought about, if this is the case. :frown2::frown2::frown2:

I also think about how difficult it would be for her to change her mind BACK (my ex is domineering) if she does it and decides she doesn't want to anymore.


----------



## happy as a clam

jld said:


> Your wife had to pay him child support? They had a 50/50 split?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are two parts to a 50/50 split: time, and money.

The higher earning parent will ALWAYS pay, even if it's a 50/50 split on time, in order to "equalize" the income. Unless they signed an agreement specifying otherwise (which STR did in fact sign).


----------



## MommaGx3

happy as a clam said:


> This sounds great, and I don't even have anxiety!!
> 
> _*happy as a clam off to find a zombie apocalypse book now... _


You know, there is just something that puts my life in perspective when I read about zombies... I'd recommend Don of the Living Dead, it's a stand-alone book. It's funny. And it's an easy read. I mean, come'on it starts with the fearless hero on the toilet.... 

Sorry to derail!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> I think her anxiety is coming from the bullying. And her daughter is learning from her mom to give in to it, which is not helpful.
> 
> I think the only answer is to stand up, STR. That is the cure for your and her anxiety.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What bullying JLD? Her daughter is legally entitled to live with whomever she decides at her age. This isn't a threat. If he is doing this just for the money, that is awful but if he wants more time with his daughter it isn't. 

How can she stand up to him? Go after another $50.00 a month in court. We saw the calculations assuming she had full custody which she doesnt. She takes this to court her father will take that opportunity to get custody of the girl and eliminate OP's child support as much he can.


----------



## samyeagar

SecondTime'Round said:


> I think he is, too. I mean, it was pretty much proven it wasn't an empty threat when my daughter told me what his agenda is. *He's not just threatening, he's actively plotting.*
> 
> I'm not sure what seeing an attorney right now would help with since my daughter is 14 (almost 15) and not 7. If she was 7, this would not even be happening, but since she's at the age where she's legally allowed to decide where she lives, it is happening. I think in her brain she's probably thinking, "If I go to live with Dad full time, he no longer has to pay child support, so things will be calmer and he won't be so mad at mom all the time." (Even though I don't think he'd have to pay zero, he's delusional). Seeing an attorney right now would only "solve" money issues, not what's really bothering me, and that's the welfare of my child and also my emotional well being! More money from him isn't going to help any of that.
> 
> There's also an issue of me actually caring what other people think of me. I'm sure that he spews as much hate and lies about me to friends and his family, and even though I no longer speak to his family, I care what they think of me. My former SIL was my best friend since age 12 and she's really my only tie to the family, and I was thinking of messaging her and setting the record straight about a few things. Our relationship is very, very strained because I felt abandoned by her during the divorce (she recognized this and apologized years later), but we are still friends on Facebook. I know I should not care what his family, or anyone, thinks about me, but I do.
> 
> OK now I'm rambling.



Just started reading this thread, but can't let this one go without commenting.

My ex-wife is diagnosed NPD, so I have a sh1t ton of personal experience dealing with this kind of crap.

There is nothing you can do to stop the vitriol and threats. You can block his phone, email, but that's about it. I have followed your story here on TAM, and I don't really see much that would even rise to an ongoing restraining order. In short...you can't do much with people like him.

What you can do is this...do not respond to a damned thing from him. Let him bluster, demand, threaten, all he wants...it's just that...noise. The only thing you are bound by is what a judge orders. Hell, he can bring all the motions and suits he wants, but unless a judge orders it, it is absolutely meaningless.

I'll say it again just for emphasis...you are under no obligation to respond to anything other than a signed court order.

ALso try and get into the mindset that you are not, and can not successfully coparent with a person like this. Look into parallel parenting instead. Parallel parenting is completely one sided and does not rely on the other parent at all. If done properly, it can be very effective.

My ex wife had successfully alienated all three of my children from me, and she had the advantage of full custody. By completely stopping responding to her, anything she said or did, and focussing on my relationship with the kids to the exclusion of their mother, I have managed to regain two of my kids. The third, my 17 year old daughter is very much like her mother, and will be a very tough nut to crack.

But dayum, my ex wife has threatened so damned many things...Four years divorced, and just yesterday in fact she claimed that she had some crap from the internet that she talked to a forensic investigator and the police chief and she could bring federal charges if she wanted to. I did not respond at all. Nothing to engage on.

I am very careful in keeping my side of the street clean, so she can say and threaten all she wants, but again...unless ordered by a judge, I am compelled to react to exactly NOTHING from my ex-wife.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

SecondTime'Round said:


> Yes, I agree, but it's not about the money. I've actually been considering if I should just say screw it to child support at all because I'm SO sick of his abuse over the issue.


That's one way to deleverage.... using the law is another.

There are also other ways, but you are starting to tap the pulse of leverage and what it could mean in turning this situation around.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

samyeagar said:


> Just started reading this thread, but can't let this one go without commenting.
> 
> My ex-wife is diagnosed NPD, so I have a sh1t ton of personal experience dealing with this kind of crap.
> 
> There is nothing you can do to stop the vitriol and threats. You can block his phone, email, but that's about it. I have followed your story here on TAM, and I don't really see much that would even rise to an ongoing restraining order. In short...you can't do much with people like him.
> 
> What you can do is this...do not respond to a damned thing from him. Let him bluster, demand, threaten, all he wants...it's just that...noise. The only thing you are bound by is what a judge orders. Hell, he can bring all the motions and suits he wants, but unless a judge orders it, it is absolutely meaningless.
> 
> I'll say it again just for emphasis...you are under no obligation to respond to anything other than a signed court order.
> 
> ALso try and get into the mindset that you are not, and can not successfully coparent with a person like this. Look into parallel parenting instead. Parallel parenting is completely one sided and does not rely on the other parent at all. If done properly, it can be very effective.
> 
> My ex wife had successfully alienated all three of my children from me, and she had the advantage of full custody. By completely stopping responding to her, anything she said or did, and focussing on my relationship with the kids to the exclusion of their mother, I have managed to regain two of my kids. The third, my 17 year old daughter is very much like her mother, and will be a very tough nut to crack.
> 
> But dayum, my ex wife has threatened so damned many things...Four years divorced, and just yesterday in fact she claimed that she had some crap from the internet that she talked to a forensic investigator and the police chief and she could bring federal charges if she wanted to. I did not respond at all. Nothing to engage on.
> 
> I am very careful in keeping my side of the street clean, so she can say and threaten all she wants, but again...unless ordered by a judge, I am compelled to react to exactly NOTHING from my ex-wife.


Another form of deleverage. This one is emotional and psychological. Keeping your energy to yourself and your kids and not wasting it on him. Your kids will gravitate to what is right.

Thanks for sharing Sam... excellent.


----------



## samyeagar

Oh boy you have my mind rolling now 

A few other bits of advice...there are some already on this thread, and no doubt many others in your life that will react to all of this emotionally, give you emotionally based advice, are going to encourage you to take actions that feed into that emotion. You have to be very careful and not get sucked into that.

Remember this...just because something is terribly wrong does not make it illegal. The courts do not care about emotion, they do not care about whats wrong...they only take into account what is legal and what is not.

Another thing about family court...the one who brings the motion has the burden to prove it. Sure, it can make things annoying, irritating, time consuming for the other person, and that sucks when you have to fill out financial affidavits, answer interrogatories, but again, just because a motion is brought means nothing. Only the final order matters.


----------



## Pluto2

samyeagar said:


> Just started reading this thread, but can't let this one go without commenting.
> 
> My ex-wife is diagnosed NPD, so I have a sh1t ton of personal experience dealing with this kind of crap.
> 
> There is nothing you can do to stop the vitriol and threats. You can block his phone, email, but that's about it. I have followed your story here on TAM, and I don't really see much that would even rise to an ongoing restraining order. In short...you can't do much with people like him.
> 
> What you can do is this...do not respond to a damned thing from him. Let him bluster, demand, threaten, all he wants...it's just that...noise. The only thing you are bound by is what a judge orders. Hell, he can bring all the motions and suits he wants, but unless a judge orders it, it is absolutely meaningless.
> 
> I'll say it again just for emphasis...you are under no obligation to respond to anything other than a signed court order.
> 
> ALso try and get into the mindset that you are not, and can not successfully coparent with a person like this. Look into parallel parenting instead. Parallel parenting is completely one sided and does not rely on the other parent at all. If done properly, it can be very effective.
> 
> My ex wife had successfully alienated all three of my children from me, and she had the advantage of full custody. By completely stopping responding to her, anything she said or did, and focussing on my relationship with the kids to the exclusion of their mother, I have managed to regain two of my kids. The third, my 17 year old daughter is very much like her mother, and will be a very tough nut to crack.
> 
> But dayum, my ex wife has threatened so damned many things...Four years divorced, and just yesterday in fact she claimed that she had some crap from the internet that she talked to a forensic investigator and the police chief and she could bring federal charges if she wanted to. I did not respond at all. Nothing to engage on.
> 
> I am very careful in keeping my side of the street clean, so she can say and threaten all she wants, but again...unless ordered by a judge, I am compelled to react to exactly NOTHING from my ex-wife.



:iagree:

Your ex likes to make threats because he knows it will get a reaction, and it does.

If and this really is a big if, he raises it again with your DD, be strong but don't tell her how much you will miss her and how she is a rock or any of that (its manipulative even if well-meaning). Point out that riding in the winter is pretty slim, and suggest that you and her father will reconsider in the summer. But until then, why bother because of school, her sibling, etc.

Until he makes an effort to take this to court you don't have to do a thing. And since he doesn't want to believe in attorneys (?) he can say anything.

And you can ignore it. I know you don't believe it, but you have the upper hand, legally speaking. You already have a signed agreement. Yes, your DD can change her mind, but there's nothing that will happen until the agreement is changed-which will require your ex to take action.


----------



## samyeagar

Stop being afraid and being reactionary. He can not hurt you unless you let him. Quit giving him that power with your emotions.

With regards to the kids...the absolute best thing you can do is to let yourself shine through as their mother. Let you, your actions, your words speak for themselves. Ultimately, your kids will make up their own mind anyway, and there is nothing you can do to force that. They will figure things out for themselves, make their own way, and all we can do is hope we are part of that way. It will be painful for you at times, oh god it will hurt like hell. I remember the day that my oldest son called me after having no contact with him for over a year. I cried harder and more that day than I ever had before in my life. But you know what brought him back to me? I let myself stand on my own merits.


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## Heatherknows

ButtPunch said:


> I am certain the girls horses are a big attraction in the matter as well.
> 
> .


I think the horses are a big issue too.


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## SecondTime'Round

Pluto2 said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Your ex likes to make threats because he knows it will get a reaction, and it does.
> 
> If and this really is a big if, he raises it again with your DD, be strong but don't tell her how much you will miss her and how she is a rock or any of that (its manipulative even if well-meaning). Point out that riding in the winter is pretty slim, and suggest that you and her father will reconsider in the summer. But until then, why bother because of school, her sibling, etc.
> 
> *Until he makes an effort to take this to court you don't have to do a thing. And since he doesn't want to believe in attorneys (?) he can say anything.
> 
> And you can ignore it. I know you don't believe it, but you have the upper hand, legally speaking. You already have a signed agreement. Yes, your DD can change her mind, but there's nothing that will happen until the agreement is changed-which will require your ex to take action.*


Thank you for this. This is what I was pondering in m earlier post this morning, but you worded it a lot better.


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## Blossom Leigh

samyeagar said:


> Stop being afraid and being reactionary. He can not hurt you unless you let him. Quit giving him that power with your emotions.
> 
> With regards to the kids...the absolute best thing you can do is to let yourself shine through as their mother. Let you, your actions, your words speak for themselves. Ultimately, your kids will make up their own mind anyway, and there is nothing you can do to force that. They will figure things out for themselves, make their own way, and all we can do is hope we are part of that way. It will be painful for you at times, oh god it will hurt like hell. I remember the day that my oldest son called me after having no contact with him for over a year. I cried harder and more that day than I ever had before in my life. *But you know what brought him back to me? I let myself stand on my own merits*.


Yep, stand in your truth Sister. Its THE most effective path.


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## samyeagar

Reread the first post in this thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/privat...daughter-guess-i-still-have-lots-work-do.html


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## Satya

STR, I don't have much valuable advice for you since I'm childless at the present, but it's got to be a tough spot to be in.

I'd echo the concerns about letting FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) guide your actions. Your ex did what he did to scare you and it worked. Manipulative people, if allowed to influence us for long periods, really screw with our minds in ways we still deal with, years later. Dont allow it in. 

As for your daughter, I can't say what's right or wrong. Was it right to you at the time, to have that talk with her? If yes, then you did what you felt was right. We make what is hopefully the best decision in the moment. I think a lot also depends on your relationship with her and her maturity and resilience levels, which is something we can't really know or gauge in a post. 

In all honesty, were I in your shoes, I imagine I probably would have done as you did, whilst trying to remain factual. If your daughter has feelings about any of it, best that these are formed and felt completely by her rather than her feelings be influenced by yours. When kids absorb the outer emotions of their parents (which happens even on a subconscious level), it can be overwhelming and confusing. They have enough of their own emotions, thoughts, and identity to process. If you maintain a zen place for her with you, I have a feeling she'll remember this when faced with more chaotic, external influences, horses present or not.


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## samyeagar

Satya said:


> STR, I don't have much valuable advice for you since I'm childless at the present, but it's got to be a tough spot to be in.
> 
> I'd echo the concerns about letting FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) guide your actions. Your ex did what he did to scare you and it worked. Manipulative people, if allowed to influence us for long periods, really screw with our minds in ways we still deal with, years later. Dont allow it in.
> 
> As for your daughter, I can't say what's right or wrong. Was it right to you at the time, to have that talk with her? If yes, then you did what you felt was right. We make what is hopefully the best decision in the moment. I think a lot also depends on your relationship with her and her maturity and resilience levels, which is something we can't really know or gauge in a post.
> 
> In all honesty, were I in your shoes, I imagine I probably would have done as you did, whilst trying to remain factual. If your daughter has feelings about any of it, best that these are formed and felt completely by her rather than her feelings be influenced by yours. When kids absorb the outer emotions of their parents (which happens even on a subconscious level), it can be overwhelming and confusing. They have enough of their own emotions, thoughts, and identity to process. If you maintain a zen place for her with you, I have a feeling she'll remember this when faced with more chaotic, external influences, horses present or not.


In cases like this, it is extremely important to resist the urge to prove to the children that you are right for the sake of proving you are right. The kids don't care who's right or wrong. That only matters to the parents.

My ex-wife still to this day spouts off about how much money I have and how poor they are, and how I do nothing to financially support my kids. I do absolutely to the letter what the court order says, and nothing more. I have not once spoken to the kids about the money situation, nor did I feel compelled to plead my case with them, telling them how wrong their mother is. The kids see how my wife and I live. They see with their own eyes that I am not rolling in it. They aren't stupid. They see their mother for what she is...a woman complaining about how I don't give them enough...all the while not having a job of her own four years after divorcing.


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## mandik

Do and audit thru child support..you can go pro bon thru bar ass. Here in Louisiana. Get your child support right , your cheating your kids while he living the good life..don't doubt yourself as a great mother..he can spend all his money fighting courts you raise your kids.. Don't let him threaten you. Your stronger than that..keep your text messages copies to your email..that's your proof..your stronger than you think don't let his ways put doubts on you .

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## happy as a clam

samyeagar said:


> With regards to the kids...the absolute best thing you can do is to let yourself shine through as their mother. Let you, your actions, your words speak for themselves. Ultimately, your kids will make up their own mind anyway, and there is nothing you can do to force that. They will figure things out for themselves, make their own way, and all we can do is hope we are part of that way.


:iagree: This is gold.

After my divorce, my daughter made the decision to stay primarily with her dad (even though we had 50/50 custody) because he kept the "big" marital home with all the material trappings. She wanted her old room, her friends in the neighborhood, her affluent lifestyle, her dad's extra car, etc. and he really persuaded her (through guilt trips and manipulation) that living with him was best for her. Though it broke my heart at the time I accepted her decision. Even though I had a beautiful room set up for her, she wanted all her "stuff". Looking back with some clarity, I now realize she just didn't want to face the change in our family. It was her way of hanging on to her "old life."

Fast forward almost five years... she is at my house all the time now for the past couple of years. Even though she is away at college, she has slowly migrated all of her stuff over to my place and stays here almost exclusively during all her breaks and holidays. With age and maturity she is clearly able to see her dad's manipulative tactics and controlling nature. And she really wants no part of it.

Kids DO eventually sort through it and make the best decision for themselves.

Hang in there STR...


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## EnigmaGirl

> I disagree. The majority of men feel their role is in the workplace and will put work before children. Women usually put their children first. I don't care what statistics or media is saying now. I'm talking about real world experiences. That being said I do feel fathers are extremely important in the raising of children and SHOULD be more actively involved in the day to day mundane tasks of child raising. Like driving the kids to activities and making them dinner etc.


Talk about really sexist stereotypes. You've relegated fatherhood to being nothing but money earners and chauffeurs. Pathetic.

In case you haven't been keeping up, there are more and more women in the full-time work force. In fact, soon there will be more women than men working. That's the actual real world...welcome to it. Just because someone works doesn't mean that they aren't important and don't value their children.

Children need to be provided for and people that work and provide for their children are far more useful to children that people that sit around in a dependent state waiting for someone else to take care of the children. I have nothing but disdain for people that don't ensure financial viability for their children...providing financially for a child is the very essence of proving how much you love and value them.

You're completely wrong about men's roles in the lives of their children. Your opinion is out-dated and extremely sexist and gender-biased. It indicates that you have very little respect for both men and don't understand the needs of children either. 

Any woman that suggests that men don't put their children first is a serious man-hater.


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## Heatherknows

EnigmaGirl said:


> Any woman that suggests that men don't put their children first is a serious man-hater.


LOL! This is a ridiculous statement. Perhaps you're the man hater. Anyone who has read my posts knows that I'm far from hating men...if anything I have a problem with liking them too much. 

In any case, feel free to ignore me. You don't understand me at all.


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## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> I disagree. *The majority of men feel their role is in the workplace and will put work before children.* Women usually put their children first. I don't care what statistics or media is saying now. *I'm talking about real world experiences*. That being said I do feel fathers are extremely important in the raising of children and SHOULD be more actively involved in the day to day mundane tasks of child raising. Like driving the kids to activities and making them dinner etc.


Heather this is your post is it not? What REAL WORLD experiences are you referring to. I have always and will always remain the primary parent for my children. I have more custodial time with them than my X wife. They have alway been my top priority. 

I work in an extremely man dominated alpha male type profession. I don't know a single guy who puts career above family or kids. All of us do the best we can to be the best fathers we can.. Period. Just because your small world view may see men as only interested in money doesn't mean that's how the REAL WORLD operates


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## Heatherknows

Wolf1974 said:


> Heather this is your post is it not? What REAL WORLD experiences are you referring to. I have always and will always remain the primary parent for my children. I have more custodial time with them than my X wife. They have alway been my top priority.
> 
> I work in an extremely man dominated alpha male type profession. I don't know a single guy who puts career above family or kids. All of us do the best we can to be the best fathers we can.. Period. Just because your small world view may see men as only interested in money doesn't mean that's how the REAL WORLD operates


OK, maybe this might help you see my point:

Women are almost 42 per cent more likely to take sick days than men - Telegraph

Who Stays Home When the Kids Are Sick? - The Atlantic

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/25/women-need-time-off-from-work-the-most-but-often-get-it-the-least/

Above are your facts and figures which makes my statement valid.


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## happy as a clam

@Heatherknows... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true that you do you not have children of your own? In other words, do you NOT have children who were birthed by YOU?

If not, you cannot possibly relate to the discussion at hand. If I am wrong about your child-status, I stand corrected. (Although I still disagree with your viewpoint.)

Trust me... You cannot KNOW what this is like unless it is your flesh and blood child.

(And all the adoption and step-parent folks, spare me the details. Apples and oranges.)

**Preparing for incoming 2x4s...*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Heatherknows

happy as a clam said:


> @Heatherknows... Please correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not have children of your own? In other words, do you NOT have children who were birthed by YOU?
> 
> If not, you cannot possibly relate to the discussion at hand. If I am wrong, I stand corrected. (Although I still disagree with your viewpoint.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I cannot speak as a mother but I can speak as a daughter who saw their mother struggle with bringing up two children without much help from my father.

I posted some articles that support my point. If everyone wants to disagree with me that's fine. I'm going to step away from this thread now.


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## happy as a clam

Heatherknows said:


> I cannot speak as a mother but I can speak as a daughter who saw their mother struggle with bringing up two children without much help from my father.
> 
> I posted some articles that support my point. If everyone wants to disagree with me that's fine. *I'm going to step away from this thread now.*


Probably a very good idea .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> I cannot speak as a mother but I can speak as a daughter who saw their mother struggle with bringing up two children without much help from my father.
> 
> I posted some articles that support my point. If everyone wants to disagree with me that's fine. I'm going to step away from this thread now.


It is a very different experience between parent and child.


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## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> It is a very different experience between parent and child.


Perhaps. But I said I was going to step away and I shall. When my parents got divorced I heard all about the money stuff and it made me so anxious that I couldn't concentrate in school. So this thread is a bit triggering for me. 

I hope the OP gets her fair share and doesn't get harmed in this divorce. 

(Going back to my workout thread. 0 )


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## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> OK, maybe this might help you see my point:
> 
> Women are almost 42 per cent more likely to take sick days than men - Telegraph
> 
> Who Stays Home When the Kids Are Sick? - The Atlantic
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/25/women-need-time-off-from-work-the-most-but-often-get-it-the-least/
> 
> Above are your facts and figures which makes my statement valid.


So the basis of your argument is who stays home with the sick kids more? So if a father goes to work instead of staying home with the kids sick he prioritized work more than family?? Does these studies take into account stay at home moms or are those skewing those numbers. All the dual working homes I have heard of take turns staying home with sick kids. 

Think you and I define prioritize much differently
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

Wolf1974 said:


> So the basis of your argument is who stays home with the sick kids more? So if a father goes to work instead of staying home with the kids sick he prioritized work more than family?? Does these studies take into account stay at home moms or are those skewing those numbers. All the dual working homes I have heard of take turns staying home with sick kids.
> 
> Think you and I define prioritize much differently
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well this never happened with us. He never once stayed home because he deemed my full time (management ) job less important than his because I worked for a non profit. He was pretty clear on that. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> Perhaps. But I said I was going to step away and I shall. When my parents got divorced I heard all about the money stuff and it made me so anxious that I couldn't concentrate in school. So this thread is a bit triggering for me.
> 
> I hope the OP gets her fair share and doesn't get harmed in this divorce.
> 
> (Going back to my workout thread. 0 )


Children are perceptive of many things, but no matter how perceptive, their understanding will be that of a child. They are not capable of understanding things as an adult simply because they do not have the life experience.


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## Wolf1974

SecondTime'Round said:


> Well this never happened with us. He never once stayed home because he deemed my full time (management ) job less important than his because I worked for a non profit. He was pretty clear on that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Well
All I can say is pick better men to make kids with. Sorry. I never felt my job was more important than my wife's. I did think our children were more important than our careers but she disagreed with me on that .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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