# Porn



## DiZ

Why do men still watch it even tho they say they love their wives and are never denied sex and have a good sex life? I need to understand. I got up last night and he was watching it, two women. Does he want me to look like that? Am I not giving him something he needs?


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## johnnycomelately

DiZ said:


> Why do men still watch it even tho they say they love their wives and are never denied sex and have a good sex life? I need to understand. I got up last night and he was watching it, two women. Does he want me to look like that? Am I not giving him something he needs?


This is a can of worms that has been opened many, many times on this forum. 

I have a very fulfilling sex life and there is nothing that I want to do that is off limits, I am more in love with my wife today than I was when we first got together, yet I still use porn regularly. 

Men and women have evolved to have multiple sex partners but in different ways. Men produce millions of sperm at a relatively constant rate all through their lives, whether their regular partner is fertile or not. Unlike many lower mammals sperm production and sexual desire does not stop when the female partner is pregnant, lactating, in menopause or is absent. 

Socially we have developed a system of nominal monogamy in order to bring up our helpless offspring. Unlike many mammals, who provide little or no care to their offspring and only get together when the female is in oestrus. This means that there is a dichotomy between what we want to do socially - monogamy - and what we are driven to do biologically - polygamy. Most men deal with this issue by masturbating. It gets rid of the sperm and takes the edge off the desire. There is strong evidence that if we don't ejaculate we are more likely to get prostate cancer:

Frequent ejaculation may protect against cancer - 06 April 2004 - New Scientist

Porn has been around for a long time in one form or another. Why? To help men, and some women, deal with their biological drives which are at odds with their desire to remain faithful to their partners. 

It doesn't mean he is not attracted to you and it doesn't nessarily mean you are not meeting any need. In fact I tend to masturbate more if I am having a lot of hot sex with my wife, probably because I have more sex hormones rushing through my system.

Porn is a masturbation aid and it should be no more threatening than a vibrator would be for him. If you own a big, purple, pulsating vibrator it doesn't mean you want your husband to be a big, purple, vibrating penis with batteries up his ass. Does it?

Good luck and wait for the tirade from the porn-haters.


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## ScarletBegonias

DiZ said:


> Why do men still watch it even tho they say they love their wives and are never denied sex and have a good sex life? I need to understand. I got up last night and he was watching it, two women. Does he want me to look like that? Am I not giving him something he needs?


I'm a woman and I look at porn.Not the movies,just the pics. 

I looked at it even when I was getting sex every day and in a satisfying relationship.I didn't hide it or behave like I was ashamed of it.

It's interesting,stimulating,and often the pictures are so beautiful the way they're done...lots of shadows,black and white,etc.I can't say why people like the videos though,I think they're poorly made and trashy.But so many photos out there are very artistic it's better than reading an erotic novel

Viewing pics had nothing to do with how I felt about my partner.I didn't need him to look like those people or act like them.I didn't fantasize about the pics while we were making love.

From what I've read about men's opinion on porn,they aren't watching it because they want their partner to be a porn star or look like those women.I can see how it makes you feel insecure which is why it needs to be addressed with your partner in an open,non-judgmental discussion.If he's obsessed with it then it's a problem.If having him view porn is a deal breaker for you then you must tell him this before you start resenting him.


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## SprucHub

I do not know about the science stuff, but the below is completely accurate! It generally does not mean anything, at all! 



johnnycomelately said:


> It doesn't mean he is not attracted to you and it doesn't nessarily mean you are not meeting any need. In fact I tend to masturbate more if I am having a lot of hot sex with my wife, probably because I have more sex hormones rushing through my system.
> 
> Porn is a masturbation aid and it should be no more threatening than a vibrator would be for him. If you own a big, purple, pulsating vibrator it doesn't mean you want your husband to be a big, purple, vibrating penis with batteries up his ass. Does it?
> 
> Good luck and wait for the tirade from the porn-haters.


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## greenpearl

I don't think your husband would mind it if you were the one who is watching porn. 

Instead of getting upset, why don't you join him? Or is it against your religion? If you give your husband permission to watch porn, I am sure he would be thrilled and thank you for being an understanding wife. He will watch it anyway. With your permission, he doesn't need to feel guilty anymore and he doesn't need to do it secretly anymore. 

I am a woman, and I watch porn. I watch gay porn to help me get excited. My husband is usually giving me oral sex while I am watching gay porn. It only takes me two or three minutes to come and the orgasms are usually powerful. 

View it a tool instead of a threat. If you view it a threat, you are only going to make things more complicated.


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## heavensangel

Good luck and wait for the tirade from the porn-haters.

I would consider myself what jcl put so eloquently, a 'porn hater'. I don't honestly believe we are born to hate porn; we're a product of experiences we've had because of it. My dislike of porn is derived directly from how my exH used it to constantly belittle and demean me throughout our 9+ year marriage. If I didn't behave, look, act like them, then I wasn't enough and he had no problem making sure I knew it. No matter what I did/didn't do - I was never the 'porn-star' wife he wanted. If I couldn't meet those expectations, then I was worthless to him!! 

That being said, I can't answer why your H is viewing it, but by the sound of your post you have a healthy marriage. Have you talked to your H about it? When you say you got up: did he leave you in bed specifically to go watch it? Do you feel he was being 'sneaky' about it? If the answer to these last two questions is 'yes', then it would concern me as typically if someone has to hide a behavior it's because they don't feel it's something they should be doing to begin with. If you haven't already, I would talk to your H first; then gauge by his reaction whether or not you have something to worry about.


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## Cee Paul

I watch porn because some of my fantasies are quite trashy and really kinky and I enjoy watching it being carried out, but before any of you say "well maybe you should get your wife to do those things" it's already been discussed and was met with a - "hell no that's nasty". And to those that don't know my wife she is very very very vanilla and conservative and does not get into sex like I do, even though I slowly pleasure her g-spot to the point she bends her back and shakes like a leaf.


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## Mavash.

Another woman here who likes porn. I watch it more than my husband does. And yes he knows that. I love my husband, we have a great sex life and no I don't expect either of us to look like that. He's not threatened by it nor am I anymore. I used to be only because I feared competing with it but now I see my fears are unfounded. As long as it does not take away from time spent together I think it's okay in moderation.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Porn is just a masturbation aid, as jcl put it. If he's not spanking it on the computer, he'll be spanking it in the shower to the porn in his mind's eye.

That's not to say there's no danger in watching porn. If it replaces sex consistently, or if it ramps up the sexual intensity he needs to get turned on beyond what you desire to provide, then it can be a huge negative.

Most men desire sexual intensity and fantasy, and a lot of women don't or aren't comfortable with it. While basic missionary sex in the bedroom gives many women with a low sense of sexual fantasy the feeling of "closeness" they really desire, it gets old.

A man turns to porn and masturbation because its easy, we like looking at naked women and fantasy is a turn on. That doesn't mean he wants you to be the porn. Hell, there's things I enjoy watching that I would absolutely never even think about doing in real life.

Hell, I'd love to have a women that likes porn, enjoys fantasy and roleplay and seduction and the like. Vanilla sex gets pretty boring.


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## richie33

I would encourage a couple talk about this subject before marriage. This subject is bound to come up. Shocked that the anti porn group has yet to show up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

SimplyAmorous said:


> My husband didn't even masterbate to it our whole marriage ... but waited for ME (unheard of I realize this!! But he had no reason to lie - especially when I told him I did !)


Can I clone you?


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## SimplyAmorous

My husband didn't even masterbate to it our whole marriage ... but waited for ME (unheard of I realize this!! But he had no reason to lie - especially when I told him I did !)

He ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS had a craving to look at beautiful naken women...he's like the perfect husband -would never deny my needs, puts me 1st in everything, anything...but yet...this is a hobby of his....he is not into sports, he likes to collect Playboy bunnies.... I used to get upset, find this stuff on his computer -start deleting...he'd try to stay away but he'd crack.... 

Yrs ago (when I was more uptight- a little religious)...I'd tape scriptures to his desktop ....I cried one time. I just didn't "get it" / I didn't understand MEN....

Looking back...I can laugh at this now.... When we got our 1st Dell, the next day... he went to work & all these HOT Babes started popping up on the screen like Wildfire... I knew what he was up too !!







I was furious ~ called Dell , I think they got a chuckle out of my dilemma...I just wanted my home page back. 

Now I love a little Porn...once I hit my sexual peak ... I think I like it more than him! I'd be ticked off if he wanted to restrain me from it. It in no way affects how I view him or my love for him, just as it never affected him towards me... we are closer than ever. It's even enhanced our experience, enjoying it together. 

Another similar thread on this.... in my posts, I give links to books that can help you understand Men, I also talk about the hormonal influence on their brains, it's all about the higher levels of testosterone. 










If , however , he is using it over you, this is a real problem. It can be very addicting, and a man should never never use Porn over a willing /giving wife & in place of intimacy in the marriage . That is just wrong in every degree.


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## SimplyAmorous

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Can I clone you?


I've come a long way, I was too prudish years ago. Being a good girl is fine -out & about...but we need to let her go at the bedroom door - be those 2 faces of EVE >>









So ya know.... a lot of wasted years really. What a shame.  I'd give anything for a time machine, part of my interest in yakking on this forum is ...to educate women in ways I wish I was many moons ago...it could have boosted our creativity & adventure tremendously.


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## BjornFree

Enjoy


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## BjornFree

SimplyAmorous, where in the world do you find all of these emoticons???


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## SimplyAmorous

BjornFree said:


> SimplyAmorous, where in the world do you find all of these emoticons???


I went on an Emoticon hunt for a time adding to my collection... I go to google images... pick a subject ...then add emoticon after it in the search bar..... takes me to many sites I never heard of...never know what you might find. 

Here is one >> Emoticons and smileys that are happy, sad, angry, etc and Word Emoticons


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## AnnieAsh

A woman is being unreasonable if she doesn't want porn to be a part of her sex life with her husband? 

I actually have a higher drive than my husband and when he is watching pornography and masturbating, I am not pleased. He cannot keep up.


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## Pault

simple fact males are switched on by what is visual. Women more for the provider hunter gatherer. 
Porn is a stimulous for guys, yes women enjoy looking as well but these appear few. Most women from comments seen on TAM dislike it as they feel a comparison going on. I say Ladies Ive seen these porn actresses pouting andn squeeling etc and dear me its pretty boring stuff. A real female doint real things will make a guys eyes light up pretty quickly. If a woman catches her man looking at porn it could be a wise thing to check out whats hes looking at, Most young (meaning teen guys) learn from the old porn vids from dads cupboard and as we know this aint real. then hopefully they meet a nice lady who is prepared to explains whats needed and off we go. Some guys have, as suggested here have some fantasies of their own which in the main are not outragous just emarressing to tell someone who may not be acceptable or open to understanding its a sheer fantasey and if it occured for real the guy would be out the door like a dog after a rabbit. 

Dont chastise the guy. join him if you can even if its light weight porn and make the boundries from there. You may descover you like it or even that he decides home is better.....


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## ScarletBegonias

AnnieAsh said:


> A woman is being unreasonable if she doesn't want porn to be a part of her sex life with her husband?


I don't think she's being unreasonable unless she suddenly drops it on him that porn is a dealbreaker for her.These things should be discussed openly at the beginning if she feels THAT strongly about it.


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## Maricha75

AnnieAsh said:


> A woman is being unreasonable if she doesn't want porn to be a part of her sex life with her husband?
> 
> I actually have a higher drive than my husband and when he is watching pornography and masturbating, I am not pleased. He cannot keep up.


Not unreasonable at all. As Richie said, though...this should be discussed before marriage, so no one is blindsided with it.


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## IsGirl3

I think they watch it because it is hot and exciting. I don't think it's a reflection on you. Why do I like reading erotica? It doesn't mean I love my husband less. It gives me ideas and fantasies that will never happen and helps improve my drive for sex.


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## sandc

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Can I clone you?


Dude, get in line. Starts back there around the block.


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## sandc

I do look at porn from time to time. I have a couple of fantasies that I can get out of my system by watching porn. I do not masturbate to porn... okay almost never. If I have been travelling and away from my wife for several days I will. But normally I take it all out on her, poor dear. 

Personally I like the amateur porn. I like women that look like real women. I don't like the plastic look that most porn stars have. But just because I enjoy watching them does not mean I actually want them. I enjoy watching an auto race. I enjoy looking at big expensive airplanes. Doesn't mean I actually want one. They are pleasurable to look at. I can look at a woman, enjoy her beautify for what it is without actually wanting to have sex with her.


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## Maricha75

DiZ said:


> Why do men still watch it even tho they say they love their wives and are never denied sex and have a good sex life? I need to understand. I got up last night and he was watching it, two women. Does he want me to look like that? Am I not giving him something he needs?


When all else fails... ask him. Ask him what it is about it that fascinates him. Yes, as some have pointed out here, men are (usually) more visual. But another thing... are you adamantly against it? Does he know how you feel about porn? As Richie said, and I agree, it is something that should be discussed in the beginning. If it is a deal breaker for you, then he should be made aware.

Now, that said, sometimes, things happen where it was "ok" before, but not now. In those circumstances, it STILL needs to be discussed. 

I am one of those "anti-porn" people mentioned earlier. 
However, I am one who says "That won't work for me. If it works for you, by all means. But please don't try to 'convert' me."


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## SimplyAmorous

sandc said:


> I do not masturbate to porn... okay almost never. If I have been travelling and away from my wife for several days I will. But normally I take it all out on her, poor dear.


Awe...if more husbands lived like this...(waiting - bringing it all back to their wives...provided their wives are up for the task! )....maybe more wives would warm up to the idea...beings our men are putting our needs above all.. restraining his passion for his wife & her alone. I can see using it to fill in the gaps when the other is not there or she is just not in the mood... for those still against it, I think they ought to be open to making their own PORN videos for the husband. This would be a nice compromise. 

In comparison to *AnnieAsh*'s words here ..."*I actually have a higher drive than my husband and when he is watching pornography and masturbating, I am not pleased. He cannot keep up*." 

This is just NOT Ok. I'd wanna construct a C0ck restraint on my husband if he did this....I'd be really







.....Like many, I would grow to view Porn as the enemy --- since it was sucking his sweet libido & desire away from me...while I am off craving him & having to take care of myself. This would be very hurtful & maddening. :FIREdevil:


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## AnnieAsh

LOL SA, I totally have considered making him some sort of chastity belt. Two times a week isn't doing it for me and I have asked him to NOT look at porn. 

DiZ, a frank conversation seems to be in order. It is ok to negotiate with your husband with his porn usage. Does it take away from you? If so, why shouldn't you tell him that it just ain't working for you?


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## sandc

Annie,
A lot of guys would kill for a wife like you, I hope things are working out. Have you updated your thread lately? How are things?

Maybe you could bolt a vibrating dildo (of appropriate size for you) on the front of that djck belt you want to make your husband.

Everyone needs a hobby right?


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## sandc

SimplyAmorous said:


> Awe...if more husbands lived like this...(waiting - bringing it all back to their wives...provided their wives are up for the task! )....


She makes a genuine effort to keep up with me God bless her. And my sordid fantasies. She's a fantastic woman and I worship the ground she walks on.

Speaking of porn, we watched some together last night. Just a quick little 5 min video that caters to my particular fantasy (sshhhhhh SA! I have a reputation to up hold... on this thread) Anyway my wife doesn't normally do porn but she watched that one last night and gave me that "I can't sleep" look... turns out she enjoyed watching it with me.

Yes. I helped her get to sleep. :smthumbup:

Twice.


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## DiZ

Thank you all. I must admit you have made me feel better. I guess I had a knee jerk reaction and assumed I was not meeting his needs, he doesn't like my body, etc.

No he did not leave the bed or have me leave it to watch it. I fell asleep on the couch and went into the bedroom to go to sleep and saw him and freaked out.

Thank you again.


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## sandc

Next time cuddle up with him and watch it with him. Start making subtle moves on him. Ask him if that porn gives him any ideas.

Then brace for impact!


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## sandc

Trenton said:


> What is your fantasy if you don't mind me asking? I get that it's personal and private so understand if you don't want to share but was curious.


PM is on it's way.


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## Holland

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Porn is just a masturbation aid, as jcl put it. If he's not spanking it on the computer, he'll be spanking it in the shower to the porn in his mind's eye.
> 
> That's not to say there's no danger in watching porn. If it replaces sex consistently, or if it ramps up the sexual intensity he needs to get turned on beyond what you desire to provide, then it can be a huge negative.
> 
> Most men desire sexual intensity and fantasy, and a lot of women don't or aren't comfortable with it. While basic missionary sex in the bedroom gives many women with a low sense of sexual fantasy the feeling of "closeness" they really desire, it gets old.
> 
> A man turns to porn and masturbation because its easy, we like looking at naked women and fantasy is a turn on. That doesn't mean he wants you to be the porn. Hell, there's things I enjoy watching that I would absolutely never even think about doing in real life.
> 
> Hell, I'd love to have a women that likes porn, enjoys fantasy and roleplay and seduction and the like. Vanilla sex gets pretty boring.


I think women should read and re read this reply. Porn in the right context can *help *a relationship but like many things in life it needs communication around it and respect.

SO and I have discussed porn and its place in our relationship. He has always been a porn watcher and has a huge sex drive. He said the same to me "porn is a masturbation aid" for him. 

I watch some soft core stuff just to get me going occasionally, I am HD and love sex with my guy. I want to be doing it till I die so if some low level porn helps keeps me switched on to sex then I am good with that.
As for his habits, go for it I say, as long as we continue to have a rocking sex life then there is room for porn. 

We do not own another person, getting upset or telling a man not to look at porn is never going to end well.
Talk about it in a non confrontational way. When I talk with SO it is always from a place of wanting to get to know him better, never from a place of accusations or trying to cage him in.

How about telling him you want to watch it with him.


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## sandc

sandc said:


> PM is on it's way.


Trenton confirms that my weird fantasy is in fact normal. I feel pretty tame now.


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## Cee Paul

I have only been with 4 girls/women my entire life and it's funny how 2 were really really into sex and enjoyed it, and the other two(including my wife).........not so much. And while with the two that really liked sex and wanted it frequently I rarely thought about porn and rarely watched it, but with the other two not into sex I have always somehow turned to porn.


Hmmmm coinscidence............probably not.


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## AnnieAsh

Dang, Sandc now I'm dying of curiosity!

Diz, I totally get feeling alone or like you're the only person with certain feelings. I hope everything works out 

Cee Paul, not every woman who finds porn distasteful is a fuddy-duddy in the sack! I just require LOADS of stamina!


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## DiZ

The bottom line for me is why a man has to watch this stuff when he has a warm real life body that will have the real life sex with him. I still do not understand it. I do not watch it with him as it turns me off and does nothing for me. He has told me he will not watch this trash anymore and come to me. To me it demeans me.


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## BjornFree

Did you express your opinions on this subject before you married him? How often do you two have sex? Has his porn habit affected your sex life negatively? Would he rather beat his meat than have sex with you?


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## Maricha75

DiZ said:


> *The bottom line for me is why a man has to watch this stuff *when he has a warm real life body that will have the real life sex with him. I still do not understand it. I do not watch it with him as it turns me off and does nothing for me. He has told me he will not watch this trash anymore and come to me. To me it demeans me.


No one HAS to. They CHOOSE to, for whatever excuse they give at the time. 

Oddly enough, I had this discussion with my dad. It doesn't surprise me that he used to get Playboy and then Hustler at one point in his life. In his words: "I had a real problem with that crap before my conversion." (And by conversion, he means when he became a Christian.) "I haven't touched it since, and have no desire to." Lately, we have had some of these weird conversations about stuff like this lol. The odd thing is that when I was in my 20s, it would have made me cringe... now? It really doesn't. But it's nothing that really surprised me. However, there ARE some things I just do NOT want to know about dad!


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## TrustInUs

Maricha75 said:


> *No one HAS to. They CHOOSE to, for whatever excuse they give at the time.*
> 
> Oddly enough, I had this discussion with my dad. It doesn't surprise me that he used to get Playboy and then Hustler at one point in his life. *In his words: "I had a real problem with that crap before my conversion." (And by conversion, he means when he became a Christian.) "I haven't touched it since, and have no desire to." * Lately, we have had some of these weird conversations about stuff like this lol. The odd thing is that when I was in my 20s, it would have made me cringe... now? It really doesn't. But it's nothing that really surprised me. However, there ARE some things I just do NOT want to know about dad!



I have a genuine question if you don't mind, that's not meant to HJ the thread.

Do you believe your father when he says this? The reason I ask is because I've come to find that when some men say this, other people automatically assume he is hiding behind his beliefs or hiding it from the wife. And that it's really just because the wife doesn't like porn. Now I'm aware that this is the case for many men and their marriages, but I don't believe it's the case for all.

I know I posted a while back that we didn't use it in our marriage due to our christian beliefs, and the response was negative. It actually promoted me to open another dialogue with my husband. Our decision about porn and reading erotic/romance books was decided prior to marriage, but we do have our own variety of resources that we use that only involves us.

I'm just wondering if you (or anyone really) believe men when they say they truly dont watch porn or do you think he is hiding it for the sake of his wife?


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## BjornFree

Do you believe your husband TrustInUS?


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## TrustInUs

I do... I know others have differing opinions about it and just wanted to hear other thoughts on the matter. In general I'm still learning about my H's sexuality as a man and I'm interested in these discussions.


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## Maricha75

TrustInUs said:


> I have a genuine question if you don't mind, that's not meant to HJ the thread.
> 
> Do you believe your father when he says this? The reason I ask is because I've come to find that when some men say this, other people automatically assume he is hiding behind his beliefs or hiding it from the wife. And that it's really just because the wife doesn't like porn. Now I'm aware that this is the case for many men and their marriages, but I don't believe it's the case for all.
> 
> I know I posted a while back that we didn't use it in our marriage due to our christian beliefs, and the response was negative. It actually promoted me to open another dialogue with my husband. Our decision about porn and reading erotic/romance books was decided prior to marriage, but we do have our own variety of resources that we use that only involves us.
> 
> I'm just wondering if you (or anyone really) believe men when they say they truly dont watch porn or do you think he is hiding it for the sake of his wife?


I do believe my dad. Some may say I am crazy to believe him, but my dad is one who leads by example, and truly lives what he believes. He has told us of things in his past which would probably make some cringe. But I think he tested the waters, so to speak, when talking to us girls. He started with "lesser offenses" in his eyes. He didn't throw things at us all at once. The thing is, we know dad is not perfect. He knows we girls aren't perfect. Same for our husbands. When I emotionally cheated on my husband, I was the one who confessed to my parents, not my husband. And this has opened the dialogue about all of this stuff recently. So yes, I believe my dad. And in all the moving and packing and having to go through his things when he has had hospital stays, there has been no evidence to contradict his statement regarding porn. He is not computer savvy and he allows my kids and nieces and nephew to use the computer at any time. He doesn't clear his browser. So, no, there is no porn usage.

Regarding other men. I can't speak for every man. The only men I can attest to are my dad and my husband. I have posted in other porn threads about the fact that my husband doesn't use it at all, and chooses not to masturbate. Some tried to imply I was delusional and possibly even controlling, until I presented everything. Some may still think I am controlling. Meh, don't care. What matters is that my husband and I agree..everyone else is not our concern. But, yes, I think a lot DO say it to hide it from their spouses. Not all do, but I do believe a lot do. Either way, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone either did hide it or truly doesn't use it... based on my own experiences/observations.


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## TrustInUs

Maricha- thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I deleted my posts (I regret that) with the intention of leaving so I don't remember everything, but I think one of the points brought up was the biology make up of a man and how it would be hard for him to refrain from porn. (memory a little foggy here). So it sort of felt like my husband or men in general was going against his own hard wiring. While he says thats not the case for him, it is an interesting topic to me.

Some of the responses were interesting though. I was called controlling as well but sometimes it's hard to express my opinon in a way w/o rambling on with every little detail.


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## Maricha75

Anywhere you go, you will have some who go against the norm, and it appears to make others uncomfortable lol. Honestly, what matters is only you and your spouse. The rest of us, whether we agree with you or not, are insignificant.


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## anonim

heavensangel said:


> Good luck and wait for the tirade from the porn-haters.
> 
> I would consider myself what jcl put so eloquently, a 'porn hater'. I don't honestly believe we are born to hate porn; we're a product of experiences we've had because of it. My dislike of porn is derived directly from how my exH used it to constantly belittle and demean me throughout our 9+ year marriage. If I didn't behave, look, act like them, then I wasn't enough and he had no problem making sure I knew it. No matter what I did/didn't do - I was never the 'porn-star' wife he wanted. If I couldn't meet those expectations, then I was worthless to him!!


There's nothing wrong with your 'hating porn' per se, your experiences with it left you with much to be desired and thats understandable, even to one that is 'pro porn'

I think who JCL is referring to are those who arent content to dislike what they dislike, but attack others for liking what they dislike.

Live and let live.


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## anonim

AnnieAsh said:


> A woman is being unreasonable if she doesn't want porn to be a part of her sex life with her husband?
> 
> I actually have a higher drive than my husband and when he is watching pornography and masturbating, I am not pleased. He cannot keep up.


no shes not being unreasonable, they just want different things.


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## betta

johnnycomelately said:


> Socially we have developed a system of nominal monogamy in order to bring up our helpless offspring. Unlike many mammals, who provide little or no care to their offspring and only get together when the female is in oestrus. This means that there is a dichotomy between what we want to do socially - monogamy - and what we are driven to do biologically - polygamy.


I disagree. If we look at chimpanzee studies on kin-protective behaviors, male chimpanzees can determine their offspring and share more resources with them. Bonobos show similar patterns, and their sexual lives are much more polygamous. 

The male human shows the same pattern. Kinship resource sharing and social instruction is as much a part of our behavior as is the male strut part of the courtship dance.


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## johnnycomelately

betta said:


> I disagree. If we look at chimpanzee studies on kin-protective behaviors, male chimpanzees can determine their offspring and share more resources with them. Bonobos show similar patterns, and their sexual lives are much more polygamous.
> 
> The male human shows the same pattern. Kinship resource sharing and social instruction is as much a part of our behavior as is the male strut part of the courtship dance.


 Neither Chimp nor Bonobo babies require the level or duration of care that a human baby does. The development of agriculture also influenced our move to monogamy. 

The point is we are trying to be monogamous with polygamous physiology. Masturbation helps us to achieve that. It is healthy and safe (usually). Monogamy is a big ask, as we can see by the high failure rate, why make it harder by banishing visual material that helps us do it?


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## SimplyAmorous

TrustInUs said:


> Maricha- thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I deleted my posts (I regret that) with the intention of leaving so I don't remember everything, but I think one of the points brought up *was the biology make up of a man and how it would be hard for him to refrain from porn.* (memory a little foggy here). So it sort of felt like my husband or men in general* was going against his own hard wiring*. While he says thats not the case for him, it is an interesting topic to me.
> 
> Some of the responses were interesting though. I was called controlling as well but sometimes it's hard to express my opinon in a way w/o rambling on with every little detail.


Likely me & my posts ... about the wiring, and biology...I am kinda good at pounding that on threads... with links & such... I







the subject of hormones & how they influence our brains... I find it fascinating. I will always feel it is very very difficult for higher testosterone men to conquer, it is the battle of a lifetime....like the title of this book Every Man's Battle: Winning the War on Sexual Temptation One Victory at a Time 

Many wouldn't believe me when I say I believe my husband didn't masterbate our whole marriage (except for 1 time)....but I believe him / cause I know him (him telling me that upset me even!).... so who is anyone else to say something is not possible. We can't. Anything is possible -even though it may not be the norm/ "statistical" norm. 

I have a wonderful christian son who is still a virgin at age 22...waiting for Love, wants to be a Youth Pastor... we talk about it all.... I know he struggles with porn usage and HATES himself for it (this part about religion upsets ME)...... it is ONE thing HE can not conquer... so hence my feelings on this issue... I KNOW the best & most well intentioned men STRUGGLE here. 

When you think about it though, those who have a sex partner to fulfill their nights ...to be touched & to touch....this should be a little easier to lay down.


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## TrustInUs

Simply- I wasn't thinking of a particular poster just some of some of the ideas that came up. I know that many men struggle with it and for some it's not so much of a struggle. Some really good points came up that prompted me to want to look deeper into the male mind regardless of our non use of it in our marriage.


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## johnnycomelately

TrustInUs said:


> Simply- I wasn't thinking of a particular poster just some of some of the ideas that came up. I know that many men struggle with it and for some it's not so much of a struggle. Some really good points came up that prompted me to want to look deeper into the male mind regardless of our non use of it in our marriage.


I don't struggle with it at all, I am open about my porn use and my wife has absolutely no problem with it. She asks what I look at sometimes and I tell her. It has never affected our sex lives and it has not changed my view of women, I am a strong feminist. 

I have read every statistical study, published in a respectable journal, that I can find and all have found that the wide availability of internet pornography has coincided with a fall in sexual violence and an increase in women's rights. I have seen no credible evidence that porn use causes negative attitudes to women or negatively affects sexual relationships, as long as it is in moderation.

Why would I 'struggle' with it?


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## TrustInUs

johnnycomelately said:


> Why would I 'struggle' with it?


I'm speaking spefically of men who don't for whatever reasons in their marriages. If you use it and have a healthy sex life then there would be no need to 'struggle'


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## WyshIknew

The main problem I have with porn is the possibility of exploitation, drug use and other criminality involved.

Having said that, yes I have and do look at it. We have even bought some to look at together.
I have been asked not to masturbate and in return she will make sure my needs are met whenever I am ready (within reason). Perhaps as an older man it is easier for me to only have sex once per day or every other day.


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## SimplyAmorous

TrustInUs said:


> Some really good points came up that prompted me to want to look deeper into the male mind regardless of our non use of it in our marriage.


And I think that is great !







I find this a wonderful book to explore both sides...Love and Pornography: Dealing with Porn and Saving your Relationship: Books


If you have sons, this will only benefit you as they go into puberty. When we discovered our 2nd son was looking, I had a long talk with him, even got him laughing, he told me it wasn't so bad talking to me...he even thanked me for NOT shaming him, I was very touched by his saying that....I knew I handled it well. He told me he didn't want to do that, but needed help & asked me to put a blocker on his laptop. I couldn't have asked for a better outcome. 

One plus on anonymous forums is people really do speak the truth of how they feel ..we can get away with it here in all it's glory....it is eye opening to others viewpoints & personal experiences. I feel reading others stories has helped ME be less judgemental & more sympathetic to why people do the things they do .... I've surely grown in this area over the years. 

I think one of the worst things is when a man FEARS being honest about this -lest his Gf he loves is repulsed & walks away...so he lies to keep her, he is ashamed... only to find out he couldn't lay it down...he gets caught after the vows...and trust is shattered...has to be rebuilt from the ground up, some women never let him out of the dog house. Seen so many threads on here like this. Sad. 

I just feel being a little more open minded will benefit more than destroy.


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## johnnycomelately

WyshIknew said:


> The main problem I have with porn is the possibility of exploitation, drug use and other criminality involved.


The answer to that is to enforce the law. Prohibition would just drive it underground and out of reach of legal and moral scrutiny.


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## Open up now let it all go

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just feel being a little more open minded will benefit more than destroy.


This is actually the most important lesson I've learned through years of relationship with and without porn, sharing my views online and reading others. Both men and women are so solidified in their own convictions that its all two often a battle of putting up walls between each other. It's an issue that forces users to take a good look at their own behaviour and their partners to evaluate their own feelings and many people are just not equipped to deal with such self-reflection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnnieAsh

What does the "biology of a man" have to do with it? The need to spread your seed? Heh, I rhymed.


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## johnnycomelately

AnnieAsh said:


> What does the "biology of a man" have to do with it? The need to spread your seed? Heh, I rhymed.


The 'standard' model of the human breeding strategy is that the female will look for a reliable, good father and provider and then look to supplement the genetic input from 'Alpha' male types - as in the strong-jawed tennis pro. The male breeding strategy is to impregnate as many females as possible while trying to prevent other males from impregnating their own partner. Of course we now have a social over-lay which we have developed to reduce conflict and create the best environment to bring up children, but the instincts remain.

There is a lot of physiological and social evidence to back up these claims. I am not suggesting that we give in to our instincts, using our biology as an excuse, I am in favour of monogamy, but I do think that we need to understand our instincts, in order to help us to overcome them. 

Too often we wreck our lives by giving in to our instincts, rather than dealing with them in a mature, pragmatic way. Masturbation, porn and fantasy are great tools to help us deal with these issues. Taking them away would just make it even harder to stay faithful, to the everyboy's detriment.


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## *LittleDeer*

johnnycomelately said:


> The 'standard' model of the human breeding strategy is that the female will look for a reliable, good father and provider and then look to supplement the genetic input from 'Alpha' male types - as in the strong-jawed tennis pro. The male breeding strategy is to impregnate as many females as possible while trying to prevent other males from impregnating their own partner. Of course we now have a social over-lay which we have developed to reduce conflict and create the best environment to bring up children, but the instincts remain.
> 
> There is a lot of physiological and social evidence to back up these claims. I am not suggesting that we give in to our instincts, using our biology as an excuse, I am in favour of monogamy, but I do think that we need to understand our instincts, in order to help us to overcome them.
> 
> Too often we wreck our lives by giving in to our instincts, rather than dealing with them in a mature, pragmatic way. Masturbation, porn and fantasy are great tools to help us deal with these issues. Taking them away would just make it even harder to stay faithful, to the everyboy's detriment.


By your logic men just have to have porn and can barely stay faithful. I happen to have more faith in men then that even if society undermines that, and makes men out to be weak men not in control of their sexual urges. 

Women also have control of themselves and do not need to breed with the richest strongest men, allways moving on up. Many women are very happy with the men they have in their lives and are not out of control barely able to stop themselves from cheating.

Th more society tells men and women they need porn or that it's OK to cheat the more people accept these as a norm.

I have studied this issue at length and porn doesn't stop any one from cheating, it just makes many women (and often men too) feel like [email protected] But their feelings are dismissed. Told to stop being so insecure and that they are unreasonable etc.

Pro porn people will gloss over any counter evidence ignoring peoples pain, and the fact that women (and some men too, but not to the same extent) are largely exploited to make porn.

I personally think it's a shame that people need to turn away from each other and get off on other people.

If people focus on each other and spend the time getting each other aroused and getting each other off, they would be far better off. And far less people would be in crisis in their marriage. There would be less trust issues, better bonding and everyone would know their spouse truly desired them. That is an awesome feeling.

There is no shame in not wanting porn in your marriage, the use of porn does do a great lot of harm to many relationships.
It's also OK to want your spouse to spend his or her time focused on you sexually.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

I also don't understand the link between people being closed minded or prudish and not liking porn. I think they are ways of dismissing peoples feelings on the matter, of shutting people up, who have a different POV. 

I don't feel I am closed minded, I have an awesome sexual relationship with my fiance, will try almost anything and never turn him own for sex EVER. But the reason is because I feel safe with him, and that I can trust him. I trust him not to hurt me, nor use lame excuses about not being able to help himself. And we spend a lot of time focused on one another, he spends the time flirting with me, and I am hot for him, he makes me that way through our focused sexual connection. No porn needed.


----------



## Open up now let it all go

Being close-minded doesn't have anything to do with whether you like or dislike porn. A person is close-minded when they are only capable of seeing their side of the argument. When it comes to porn this can either be a user that will dismiss their partners feelings about the issue or their partner that doesn't want to understand why people look at porn and not work towards solving the problem. I think it also applies when people come barging in these porn threads with a very conclusive view (porn is good! porn is bad!) without taking in all sorts of factors in account such as why, how much, when, the past etc.

Unfortunately when you're dealing with someone close-minded your likely never going to find a working solution because they aren't going to work on finding a solution: they're just going to push their views onto you until you accept. And how long is that going to work out?


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## SimplyAmorous

> **Little Deer* said:*If people focus on each other and spend the time getting each other aroused and getting each other off, they would be far better off. And far less people would be in crisis in their marriage. There would be less trust issues, better bonding and everyone would know their spouse truly desired them. That is an awesome feeling.


 I agree with all you said here... but THIS is so far *not* the reality of many marriages.... you are speaking to the choir on TAM (the high drivers reside here)....how to get that message LIVED with a little enthusiasm to their lower driving cold unaffectionate spouses night after night with their headaches/I'm too tired excuses..pity sex attitudes...heck some of them would be better off with a blow up doll. 




> *johnnycomelately said:* There is a lot of physiological and social evidence to back up these claims. I am not suggesting that we give in to our instincts, using our biology as an excuse, I am in favour of monogamy, *but I do think that we need to understand our instincts, in order to help us to overcome them*.


 Couldn't agree with you more... the whole premise of this book on such biology/hormones was wrapped up in your last line here... The Alchemy of Love and Lust: : Books



> Too often we wreck our lives by giving in to our instincts, rather than dealing with them in a mature, pragmatic way. Masturbation, porn and fantasy are great tools to help us deal with these issues. Taking them away would just make it even harder to stay faithful, to the everybody's detriment.


 I tend to agree with this too....really only the men can answer honestly here...if they are married to women who refuse them, can't keep up with their sexual appetites for happiness (and are internally suffering because of it -filling in those nights with porn)....does their viewing help keep them remain faithful?? How would they fare if it was all banished...and left to their imaginations alone...would they grow restless, ever more lonely, more vulnerable to a woman's showing some cleavage out & about ?? 

Sex therapists are divided on it also....many feeling it has it's place...


> The best studies suggest that only about 5% of porn users have a problem that interferes with their daily life Why Men Like Porn - Web MD ....Porn is a creative marriage boost:


Then we have Sex Therapists who used it at one time (and seen the benefits of it helping couples) explained under "A therapeutic intervention".... who has grown to feel it is best to no longer use in Practice...everyone in this camp will appreciate & praise this article >> Therapy Today - The Porn Trap

But I give credit where it is due... she acknowledges Porn IS NOT a problem for all couples..ending her article like this >>> 



> As therapists, perhaps our most important role is in providing clients with a safe place to discuss and examine their concerns. It’s best to analyse porn-related situations on a case-by-case basis, taking into consideration a client’s personal values, sexual experience, sexual orientation and relationship status. I often rely on the following questions to help clients increase awareness and begin to evaluate their involvement with porn.
> 
> 1. *Is porn increasing or decreasing your self-esteem and integrity?*
> 
> 2. *Is it upsetting or alienating your intimate partner (or harming your future chances of being in a healthy relationship)? *
> 
> 3. *Have you become preoccupied, out-of-control, dependent on or compulsively engaged with porn? *
> 
> 4. *How is porn shaping your sexual thoughts, desires, and behaviours?*
> 
> 5. *What negative consequences could occur if you continue to use porn?*
> 
> Only when clients determine they want help quitting porn do we proceed in that direction, utilising the dynamic strategies that exist for achieving sexual recovery and healing.
> 
> As mental health professionals I believe we’re most helpful when we resist our tendencies to automatically condemn or advocate porn. Our effectiveness depends on our ability to join with clients in regularly evaluating porn’s impact on their lives. While I remain aware that porn use isn’t a problem for everyone, I keep in mind that, given its unprecedented power and accessibility, it can become a problem for anyone.


 I agree ..bottom line is....it really is a case by case basis.


----------



## oldgeezer

DiZ said:


> Why do men still watch it even tho they say they love their wives and are never denied sex and have a good sex life? I need to understand. I got up last night and he was watching it, two women. Does he want me to look like that? Am I not giving him something he needs?


My interest in porn was "curiosity". Like owning a car or a tv or computer doesn't stop you from wondering what else there is. 

Today, I haven't any interest in, and am, in fact, very much repulsed by "commercial porn". I've no interest in some woman getting jackhammered in some stupid position, or any of the fetishes that are apparently out there. 

There's two reasons to indulge, one is to satisfy the physical urge, and the other is to indulge the mind in fantasy about "others". The second one is dangerous, to say the least. It can easily lead to you failing to care about your partner intimately and just making them into part of your routine. 

If you need to rely on the first for any other reason than unavoidable separation, then there's a problem in your relationship. If one prefers the first, it's the "nuclear bomb" warning going off in your life. 

Oh, and this is not even touching the addiction aspects that some people have. That's a whole different ballgame, not one dealt with by simple advice.


----------



## DCMarriageCounselor

From SA's quote of the therapist: "As therapists, perhaps our most important role is in providing clients with a safe place to discuss and examine their concerns. It’s best to analyse porn-related situations on a case-by-case basis, taking into consideration a client’s personal values, sexual experience, sexual orientation and relationship status." 

I really appreciate how respectful this thread has been about this really polarizing and complex topic.

One of the things that really helps me understand how to assess my own or a client's degree to which porn is a problem is to learn more about how the psyche works. I wrote an article on a method I learned that I think rocks called Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS) sometime ago. The other name for it is Self-Leadership. It changed a lot that I had been formally trained to believe. 

I don't want to HJ the thread but understanding the complexity of the psyche can give you tools to connect to some of the also complex ways your spouse uses or opposes porn. 

If you get a chance to read the Self-leadership link, some of this will make more sense: Basically some parts of our psyche have jobs to protect us from pain and other parts are the parts being protected (where vulnerable feelings and/or feelings of pain are stored). There are two kind of protective parts of the psyche, managers and firefighters. Managers are the parts of us that try to prevent pain and are concerned with doing the "right" or doing the best. Firefighters parts, just like the name sounds, protect us differently; these parts take over if pain couldn't be prevented by the managers. FFs are therefore fast acting and impulsive parts of us. Just like real firefighters they aren't concerned with the mess they make putting out the fire and if they were, they would make lousy firefighters. I think about the real FF walking up sixty+ flights of stairs with gear during 9/11...their fear of "what's going to happen next" didn't stop them from taking immediate action anyway, even as that decision took away their chance of living (I always get teary thinking about this). All this to say FFs can have tremendous courage and, with open and clear channels to their other, more nervous manager counterparts, can act on our behalf with amazing courage. 

I hope I'm not making you :scratchhead:

Here's the point. Sexual impulses are usually Firefighter energy. In order to be sexual, by definition, we are letting our body's "impulsive" arousal reflex kick on. Nothing bad or shameful about this, it is just how the neurology works. Food/eating is often the same way. 


But here's what happens when the relationship between our internal FF and managers is poor: The managers don't trust the FF because they make such a mess and seem to not care. The FF get accused of being dangerous and irresponsible. In return the managers get accused of being too stuck up and rigid. In reality, both are protecting the system from pain but this fact gets lost or ignored in the war about which side is better. 

If all of what I said sounds like mumbo jumbo here's another way to say it. Some people use porn to numb and kill the flames of some emotional pain. Sometimes this is obvious but many times it is not obvious because the FFs are so effective at keeping pain in exile. Anytime some of our FFs are doing this without are awareness, we are flying blind and can do some serious harm to ourselves and to others and not even feel it. Porn can definitely do this but so can being compulsively religious. The most important factor is not the outward appearance of the behavior. 

The most important factor is the whether there is a good, working relationship between the parts of the psyche (just like many have said on this thread how its the communication in the marriage about porn that matters). Mistakes and misjudgements will happen but the system can handle it because there is connection. The system can balance itself. 

There are lots of exceptions, I know, but I have found this to personally give me a map for exploring the deeper issues in our marriage whenever I get polarized with my wife about sex and so many other things. 

Have a happy turkey day everyone!


----------



## anony2

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> From SA's quote of the therapist: "As therapists, perhaps our most important role is in providing clients with a safe place to discuss and examine their concerns. It’s best to analyse porn-related situations on a case-by-case basis, taking into consideration a client’s personal values, sexual experience, sexual orientation and relationship status."
> 
> I really appreciate how respectful this thread has been about this really polarizing and complex topic.
> 
> One of the things that really helps me understand how to assess my own or a client's degree to which porn is a problem is to learn more about how the psyche works. I wrote an article on a method I learned that I think rocks called Internal Family Systems Therapy (IFS) sometime ago. The other name for it is Self-Leadership. It changed a lot that I had been formally trained to believe.
> 
> I don't want to HJ the thread but understanding the complexity of the psyche can give you tools to connect to some of the also complex ways your spouse uses or opposes porn.
> 
> If you get a chance to read the Self-leadership link, some of this will make more sense: Basically some parts of our psyche have jobs to protect us from pain and other parts are the parts being protected (where vulnerable feelings and/or feelings of pain are stored). There are two kind of protective parts of the psyche, managers and firefighters. Managers are the parts of us that try to prevent pain and are concerned with doing the "right" or doing the best. Firefighters parts, just like the name sounds, protect us differently; these parts take over if pain couldn't be prevented by the managers. FFs are therefore fast acting and impulsive parts of us. Just like real firefighters they aren't concerned with the mess they make putting out the fire and if they were, they would make lousy firefighters. I think about the real FF walking up sixty+ flights of stairs with gear during 9/11...their fear of "what's going to happen next" didn't stop them from taking immediate action anyway, even as that decision took away their chance of living (I always get teary thinking about this). All this to say FFs can have tremendous courage and, with open and clear channels to their other, more nervous manager counterparts, can act on our behalf with amazing courage.
> 
> I hope I'm not making you :scratchhead:
> 
> Here's the point. Sexual impulses are usually Firefighter energy. In order to be sexual, by definition, we are letting our body's "impulsive" arousal reflex kick on. Nothing bad or shameful about this, it is just how the neurology works. Food/eating is often the same way.
> 
> 
> But here's what happens when the relationship between our internal FF and managers is poor: The managers don't trust the FF because they make such a mess and seem to not care. The FF get accused of being dangerous and irresponsible. In return the managers get accused of being too stuck up and rigid. In reality, both are protecting the system from pain but this fact gets lost or ignored in the war about which side is better.
> 
> If all of what I said sounds like mumbo jumbo here's another way to say it. Some people use porn to numb and kill the flames of some emotional pain. Sometimes this is obvious but many times it is not obvious because the FFs are so effective at keeping pain in exile. Anytime some of our FFs are doing this without are awareness, we are flying blind and can do some serious harm to ourselves and to others and not even feel it. Porn can definitely do this but so can being compulsively religious. The most important factor is not the outward appearance of the behavior.
> 
> The most important factor is the whether there is a good, working relationship between the parts of the psyche (just like many have said on this thread how its the communication in the marriage about porn that matters). Mistakes and misjudgements will happen but the system can handle it because there is connection. The system can balance itself.
> 
> There are lots of exceptions, I know, but I have found this to personally give me a map for exploring the deeper issues in our marriage whenever I get polarized with my wife about sex and so many other things.
> 
> Have a happy turkey day everyone!


Could a person use porn to keep from having true intimacy with their partner because it keeps them emotionally unavailable?


----------



## Numbersixxx

If you want your man to stop watching porn show him this site: Your Brain On Porn. 
There is also a very good (not too long) video about it:
The Great Porn Experiment: Gary Wilson at TEDxGlasgow - YouTube

It is around 3 months that I stopped watching porn - I was not a big consumer anyway. Personally, I noticed a significant difference for the better in just 2 weeks. My mood improved, concentration and I also have more physical energy that I can spend on more important matters. I don't know how much of it is due to the placebo effect, but I would say that giving up porn is totally worth it.


----------



## Lovesong

"Most men desire sexual intensity and fantasy, and a lot of women don't or aren't comfortable with it. While basic missionary sex in the bedroom gives many women with a low sense of sexual fantasy the feeling of "closeness" they really desire, it gets old."

Really? I have the opposite problem. Missionary with my legs around his hips is how he likes it. I want more variety! He seems to like/need the closeness to cum. I also have a HD and he is the LD in our relationship. It is very frustrating. It's also disheartening when I'm hoping/wanting more variety, eroticism, roleplay, etc and it's met with a 'ho hum' attitude. 

I really, really don't believe men and women are all that different in our emotional/sexual needs. I do believe we have been socialized to believe we are different!


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## Thinkitthrough

Porn is an ill defined double edged sword. The exist a full range of porn that goes from erotica and art sex, that aims at a woman's tendency to the written word. Soft core or simulated sex doesn't show much but has the movement and noises of sex. Moving into porn and hard core porn we range from standard acts showing affection to fantasy ritualized sex with timed acts move for move language sound and action and Plastic people, and ending with acts that are unhealth, unsafe and down right dangerous.
This does not include context. In 1996 in Conyer's County near Atlanta had a syphless outbreak that centered on about 200 teens, white, upper class and mostly girls. One group of girls had a sex lives that would make *****s blush and they were 13 to 15 years old. One thing the kids did was watch the porn channels and try to copy them. Some porn is fine, but horses, dogs ane syphlatic teens are above the pale.


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## DCMarriageCounselor

Numbersixxx said:


> If you want your man to stop watching porn show him this site: Your Brain On Porn.
> There is also a very good (not too long) video about it:
> The Great Porn Experiment: Gary Wilson at TEDxGlasgow - YouTube


This is very cool. Thanks for posting this.:smthumbup:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lovesong said:


> "Most men desire sexual intensity and fantasy, and a lot of women don't or aren't comfortable with it. While basic missionary sex in the bedroom gives many women with a low sense of sexual fantasy the feeling of "closeness" they really desire, it gets old."
> 
> Really? I have the opposite problem. Missionary with my legs around his hips is how he likes it. I want more variety! He seems to like/need the closeness to cum. I also have a HD and he is the LD in our relationship. It is very frustrating. It's also disheartening when I'm hoping/wanting more variety, eroticism, roleplay, etc and it's met with a 'ho hum' attitude.
> 
> I really, really don't believe men and women are all that different in our emotional/sexual needs. I do believe we have been socialized to believe we are different!


I've found there are plenty of exceptions on both sides, but I think the stereotyped "norms" on desire are pretty accurate on the surface of things, but perhaps many women find it difficult to express?

I might be able to relate it to sexual confidence, not just drive. There are high drive women who don't ACT like you'd expect of high drive women. They seem to lack the confidence to be overtly sexual, and make up for the lack of sex with their vibrator and romance novels... or quiet disatisfaction and keeping busy. My wife claimed to be HD, and yet we rarely had sex... and when we did it was never out of her desire/need for gratification.

Its not even always about variety and kink. She claimed to almost always be up for sex, but there were never outward signs. If we had sex, its because I just decided to come after her because we hadn't done anything in awhile... I wanted her. It sucks being the pursuer all the time and feeling like you always have to "convince" her. Eventually her lack of doing things to lure me or indicate that she actually wanted me led to me losing interest in her. I didn't want to convince her. I don't speak for all men, but I like to get the feeling that she desires me too... if I don't, my interest isn't going to last. I struggled with crippling self-doubt for a long time over her seeming lack of interest... as in "Well damn... I must suck in bed." I never had a doubt that she loved me, but I eventually became sick of her total lack of trying to get laid herself, to satisfy her desire. Hell, the few times she did initiate, it was clear it wasn't because it was something she needed... but because she felt obligated to take care of MY needs; most often in the form of a bj. I was just another household chore. Bathe the kids. Feed the dog. Blow the hubby. Seems fine at first until you realize she doesn't want you for her own pleasure. I have a HD, but still lost interest in her... even turning down many of these chore bjs. The artificiality of it and the lack of feeling desired was ego destroying and infuriating. Looking back, I think she just lacked the sexual confidence to go about seducing me or luring me or anything else that made me feel like she desired me. Or, in spite of what she'd say when we'd talk about our sex life, maybe sex w me really wasn't good enough to desire - whatever; naturally I prefer the latter explanation lol . 

Some of the allure of porn is that the women in those movies are really into it. They're confident, they're seductive, they're aggressive... it all plays into a sense that they REALLY want the guy.

Ugh... I still remember her saying how she wanted sex to "feel close" to me and the rest of it didn't really matter to her. So nothing but my presence, nothing I was doing, actually mattered and was worth pursuing. Infuriating and devaluing... we might as well have just layed on the couch watching tv. Who wants to have sex with someone for whom what you do "doesn't really matter"?

She didn't show a desire for me, and eventually I responded to someone that did. Porn was definitely a crutch in the meantime.

Haha... just realized a little emotional demon got out there. Sorry.


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## Lovesong

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I've found there are plenty of exceptions on both sides, but I think the stereotyped "norms" on desire are pretty accurate on the surface of things, but perhaps many women find it difficult to express?


Yes, I think (some) women do find it difficult to express. I know for myself, that the way a man is with me can make all the difference in the world as to how I express myself. My previous BF thought, and more importantly, made me FEEL like I was the hottest thing on the planet. Consequently, we had the best sex of my (our) lives. He made me feel safe enough to fully express my desires and consequently, I did. It was hot, hot, hot. Sadly, it was not enough to hold us together because out of the sack, we didn't have enough mutual interest to hold us together. But I ACHED for him for a long time after I left him. Never had I experienced that in my life. It was bittersweet. 




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I might be able to relate it to sexual confidence, not just drive. There are high drive women who don't ACT like you'd expect of high drive women. They seem to lack the confidence to be overtly sexual, and make up for the lack of sex with their vibrator and romance novels... or quiet dissatisfaction and keeping busy. My wife claimed to be HD, and yet we rarely had sex... and when we did it was never out of her desire/need for gratification.


With my ex-husband, this is how I survived the marriage. For years we didn't even sleep in the same bed. I preferred to have sex 'alone' and KNOW why I was lonely than have it with him and wonder why I was. He was emotionally unavailable and the sex was the worst I've ever had. I cringe to think about it. And i LIKE sex! 




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its not even always about variety and kink. She claimed to almost always be up for sex, but there were never outward signs. If we had sex, its because I just decided to come after her because we hadn't done anything in awhile... I wanted her. It sucks being the pursuer all the time and feeling like you always have to "convince" her. Eventually her lack of doing things to lure me or indicate that she actually wanted me led to me losing interest in her. I didn't want to convince her. I don't speak for all men, but I like to get the feeling that she desires me too... if I don't, my interest isn't going to last. I struggled with crippling self-doubt for a long time over her seeming lack of interest...


Sadly, this is kind of how I'm feeling with my current BF. It is a horrible feeling, that self doubt and seems to me that somehow it is worse being the woman. I don't know why, but probably because it is not the 'norm'. We are told socially that men 'want it all the time' right? So then why doesn't this BF want me. I initiate and he turns me down. Talk about crushing! 




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ...but because she felt obligated to take care of MY needs; most often in the form of a bj. I was just another household chore. Bathe the kids. Feed the dog. Blow the hubby.


Sorry, but I have to laugh. It isn't funny, but the way you put it is! But ya, I get it. And what is worse is that you can't really do that for a woman (well, you can if that's the way she gets off but I need a penis thank-you). Oral is a nice start but it doesn't go the distance. So, while you at least were getting some attention and release, I'm stuck on my own and/or laying next to him naked and frustrated. You know, cuz if a man isn't into it there ain't no 'faking' it. In that regard, guys have it 'luckier' to a degree. A woman can at least still fake it for you and you may be none the wiser. 




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Seems fine at first until you realize she doesn't want you for her own pleasure. I have a HD, but still lost interest in her... even turning down many of these chore bjs. The artificiality of it and the lack of feeling desired was ego destroying and infuriating.


Tell me about it! What I love about your answer is it reveals that not all men are 'hands down pants/get me off' guys. You want the connection, you want to feel desirable, you want it to be mutually pleasurable. Dare I say you sound like a 'woman'. Obviously, that is not what I believe. I firmly believe that men and women are not very different emotionally. I get frustrated with today's narrow view of the sexes: men 'want it all the time' and 'women want closeness'. Or, men are biologically 'driven' to have many mates, whilst women look 'for the man to help raise her children'. Bull****. This is a ridiculous statement based in two different time period's realities. It is contemporary society's reality (where families are isolated and thus are left to raise the children of the union virtually on their own and thus a woman does depend on one man a great deal AND cave man days when humans were clan based and all the children of the clan/tribe, etc were raised by the whole clan/tribe). Thus, in those days, the days where humanity was much more 'natural', women did not 'need' their 'man' to stay and help raise the children. We only 'need' that nowadays because of our individualistic society's ways. But, I digress. 




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Some of the allure of porn is that the women in those movies are really into it. They're confident, they're seductive, they're aggressive... it all plays into a sense that they REALLY want the guy.


You know, when I watch porn (and not that I've watched a lot, in fact, watched it for the first time only a few months ago), it almost always bothers me that the women never shut up! Like really? A moan, gasp, or scream with every stroke? To me, this makes me feel pressure to 'perform' rather than be my natural self and go into my own pleasure. I moan, I groan, I enjoy it but don't for god's sake expect me to perform like a pornstar. And news flash... no one LIKES to swallow; that's for the movies and what some women will tell you to make you feel good. Another thing that bothers me about the porn is that a whole lot of it is solely for the guy. The women are being used as vessels. Even the 'nicer' couple stuff I've found, I can tell the women is faking it. There is little, if any, clitoral stimulation and her nipples do not get erect (a sure sign of true orgasm fellas). So, even though it is 'nicer' there is precious little out there for women to get excited about. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Ugh... I still remember her saying how she wanted sex to "feel close" to me and the rest of it didn't really matter to her. So nothing but my presence, nothing I was doing, actually mattered and was worth pursuing. Infuriating and devaluing... we might as well have just layed on the couch watching tv. Who wants to have sex with someone for whom what you do "doesn't really matter"?


Ya, that sucks. I kind of feel like that too. My BF actually asked me why I wasn't satisfied with just laying in bed and having companionship. Why do you need sex all the time, he asked. Ugh. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> She didn't show a desire for me, and eventually I responded to someone that did. Porn was definitely a crutch in the meantime.


Sadly, for all the complaints above about porn, I'm using that too as my crutch. Boo. So much for "chuck a rock in any direction" as one of my male friends said to me when I asked where I was going to find a guy who would like to have sex with me! 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Haha... just realized a little emotional demon got out there. Sorry.


I love your emotional demon! thanks for being so open and honest.


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## sandc

DvlsAdvoc8,
You said that very well. It was something I have been trying to explain to my wife for months and you put it very succinctly.



Lovesong said:


> Tell me about it! What I love about your answer is it reveals that not all men are 'hands down pants/get me off' guys. You want the connection, you want to feel desirable, you want it to be mutually pleasurable. Dare I say you sound like a 'woman'. Obviously, that is not what I believe. I firmly believe that men and women are not very different emotionally. I get frustrated with today's narrow view of the sexes: men 'want it all the time' and 'women want closeness'. Or, men are biologically 'driven' to have many mates, whilst women look 'for the man to help raise her children'. Bull****. This is a ridiculous statement based in two different time period's realities. It is contemporary society's reality (where families are isolated and thus are left to raise the children of the union virtually on their own and thus a woman does depend on one man a great deal AND cave man days when humans were clan based and all the children of the clan/tribe, etc were raised by the whole clan/tribe). Thus, in those days, the days where humanity was much more 'natural', women did not 'need' their 'man' to stay and help raise the children. We only 'need' that nowadays because of our individualistic society's ways. But, I digress.



Lovesong,
No, we're not all cavemen. I feel the same as DA. Sure I like to pursue, but I like to know that the feelings are mutual. The thrill of conquest is fun but "the offer" is good too. I'm neither fully one nor the other.

The long we've been married it seems my wife and I are slowly switching tactics. I used to love to "conquer" her, and she loved feeling desired and "giving in" but she always wanted to feel that closeness. Now the older I get, I want to feel that connection, and she's starting to enjoy just "f-ing" for f-ing's sake. Just because it feels good.

So yeah, the stereotypes don't hold.


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## Lovesong

sandc said:


> DvlsAdvoc8,
> You said that very well. It was something I have been trying to explain to my wife for months and you put it very succinctly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lovesong,
> 
> Now the older I get, I want to feel that connection, and she's starting to enjoy just "f-ing" for f-ing's sake. Just because it feels good.
> 
> So yeah, the stereotypes don't hold.


Hey Sandc,

You made me laugh out loud with the above! And this is it. Sex and emotional connectedness with a partner is a delicate dance. You have to move and sway and be ready to turn and dip and go with the flow. Roles change, feelings change, needs change, we are not static entities. This is why communication and emotional intelligence are key to a good relationship. Ego, has to be left with the coats and doorman as you check in to the dance hall!


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## Open up now let it all go

Lovesong said:


> In that regard, guys have it 'luckier' to a degree. A woman can at least still fake it for you and you may be none the wiser.


Yeah, because that's going to turn out great in the end?


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## sandc

Lovesong said:


> Hey Sandc,
> 
> You made me laugh out loud with the above! And this is it. Sex and emotional connectedness with a partner is a delicate dance. You have to move and sway and be ready to turn and dip and go with the flow. Roles change, feelings change, needs change, we are not static entities. This is why communication and emotional intelligence are key to a good relationship. Ego, has to be left with the coats and doorman as you check in to the dance hall!


It really is a tango, isn't it?


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## DvlsAdvc8

Lovesong said:


> You know, when I watch porn (and not that I've watched a lot, in fact, watched it for the first time only a few months ago), it almost always bothers me that the women never shut up! Like really? A moan, gasp, or scream with every stroke?


The moaning can get repetitive. Even we can tell and are often turned off when porn blows (pun intended ) its believeability. That's why amatuer porn is so popular. If I can't be having sex, I for one, enjoy watching someone having sex lol.



Lovesong said:


> And news flash... no one LIKES to swallow; that's for the movies and what some women will tell you to make you feel good.


Yes, but again its about the fantasy... the desireability. Its kinda like not wanting a guy to think you taste like bad fish while he's down on your lady parts. No matter what he really thinks of it, if he's enthusiastic and eager and seems to love lapping it up... you'll probably enjoy it more. He's really into you (I am the PUNisher!)



Lovesong said:


> Another thing that bothers me about the porn is that a whole lot of it is solely for the guy. The women are being used as vessels. Even the 'nicer' couple stuff I've found, I can tell the women is faking it. There is little, if any, clitoral stimulation and her nipples do not get erect (a sure sign of true orgasm fellas). So, even though it is 'nicer' there is precious little out there for women to get excited about.


I agree... but who do you think is watching the most porn? lol I honestly wouldn't know what kind of porn women would enjoy. If you asked my ex, I suspect it would be of a man changing a diaper. lol 

Wouldn't surprise me at all if almost all of these women are faking it. Could you get off on a porn set with bright lights and 15 people watching? Or with some of these giant penises? Holy smokes, I'm surprised she doesn't tap-out in agony! I have mad respect for these dudes though... I'd probably be a limp noodle with all that pressure and audience lol. Turn off. No wonder so many men have performance anxiety and size issues.



Lovesong said:


> Sadly, for all the complaints above about porn, I'm using that too as my crutch. Boo. So much for "chuck a rock in any direction" as one of my male friends said to me when I asked where I was going to find a guy who would like to have sex with me!


You think you got it bad? Try being a guy in a world where every woman thinks you're just trying to get in her pants (because ultimately, you are lol).


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## DvlsAdvc8

sandc said:


> The long we've been married it seems my wife and I are slowly switching tactics. I used to love to "conquer" her, and she loved feeling desired and "giving in" but she always wanted to feel that closeness. Now the older I get, I want to feel that connection, and she's starting to enjoy just "f-ing" for f-ing's sake. Just because it feels good.
> 
> So yeah, the stereotypes don't hold.


Hell, I'm still good with f-ing for f-ing's sake, but damn it shouldn't be a chore. My desire alone is more than enough when someone is new. After a few years, I started recognizing that it wasn't going both ways. She'd claim she wanted to have sex when we talked about it, but you can get the truth from someone's body language, actions and mannerisms.

She complained that she didn't like to initiate. So if I didn't come nibble her neck and eventually "take her", we didn't have sex... eventually I got tired of it.

Emotional connection is one thing, but hey, I want to feel desired too. I put in a lot of work to keep fit and look good. I want someone who occasionally has the sort of thoughts I do, only about me: "I want that woman up against the wall right now." Passion. Why am I doing all the ear nibbling? Why am I initiating all the good kisses? How come my back never gets rubbed? Why doesn't she lure me with lingerie? Why doesn't she ever intentionally do something sexy to get my attention? How about a dirty whisper in the ear?

Too much to ask? Instead I got bizzare pity bjs because they were "quicker and less fuss". I'd try to turn them into intercourse and she'd decline. wtf? ugh. Find a happy place. Find a happy place. Find a happy place.

My personality is such that if I feel like she's not getting pleasure from me worth seeking out and I've done everything I can to impress, forget it... I don't want her anymore either. Yet she still claimed to love our sex and didn't think we had enough either. It drove me insane.

If you want chocolate, you'll go get some from time to time. If you have boxes of chocolates sitting in your pantry and you never reach for any, you probably don't even like chocolate.


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## SimplyAmorous

sandc said:


> The long we've been married it seems my wife and I are slowly switching tactics. I used to love to "conquer" her, and she loved feeling desired and "giving in" but she always wanted to feel that closeness. Now the older I get, I want to feel that connection, and she's starting to enjoy just "f-ing" for f-ing's sake. Just because it feels good.


 I've posted this a zillion times on TAM so far, what you say here made me think of it again... found this on the net 4 yrs ago trying to understand what in the world was happening to me...this was rather tame in comparison of course..



> *Balance the seesaw*.
> 
> When they were first married, the man remembered, he always took the sexual lead, pulling his wife close and whispering his desire to make love. But now, 20 years later, she often makes the first move.
> 
> Again, hormonal changes are bringing the couple into closer balance. Men and women both produce testosterone and estrogen, but the proportion of each changes over the years.
> 
> The male's shifting levels of estrogen and testosterone may make him more willing to follow than to lead, happy for his wife to set the pace. And as a woman's estrogen declines and her testosterone becomes proportionately greater, she may become more assertive.


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## sandc

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've posted this a zillion times on TAM so far, what you say here made me think of it again... found this on the net 4 yrs ago trying to understand what in the world was happening to me...this was rather tame in comparison of course..


God bless testosterone!

I'm still the primary initiator but nowadays she doesn't so much give in as go "Yee-haw! More f-ing!!" and enjoy it just for that.


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