# Transgender Male Using A Female Bathroom / Lockerroom



## EllisRedding

Forcing Girls To Share A Bathroom With A Gender-Confused Boy Is Abuse | TheBlaze.com

So here is an interesting topic. A teenage gay male at a high school (9th grade) made the switch and became a female. The issue came up as far as what facilities he/she was to use. The school initially offered for him/her to use a private unisex facility, but she/he refused, insisting she/he needed to use the female facilities. Disregarding protests from female students who did not feel comfortable changing in front of a male dressed as a woman (he still has a penis), the school caved in to his/her request...


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## NobodySpecial

I can understand neither the instance of the individual student nor the female students. Leaves me scratching my head. What is the goal? Anyway, I wish people did not get all excited about their "comfort".


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I can understand neither the instance of the individual student nor the female students. Leaves me scratching my head. What is the goal? Anyway, I wish people did not get all excited about their "comfort".


The goal for who? For the she/he the goal would appear to be using female facilities. For the females the goal would appear to be not having to change in front of a chick with a d$ck


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## Anon Pink

If the other girls who have to use the locker room at the same time as the trans girl don't want her in there, all they have to do is not undress and stand still watching and waiting until she is finished changing. Peer scorn alone will solve this problem.

I think the trans girl is out of line considering the age group. 

Whether she still have a penis or not has nothing to do with this. The penis in question responds to boys, not girls.

What's needed here is conversation between the trans girl and her peers. Put them in the same room and let them grow an understanding for each other.


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## EnjoliWoman

Regarding bathrooms, how do Europeans deal? I only ask because I've heard most public restrooms are unisex, unlike the US. Are their school bathrooms also unisex? 

I could see a problem with all (straight) boys and girls sharing bathrooms at that age with all of the hormones and putting girls in potentially uncomfortable situations where sexual harassment could occur. I think allowing the person to use a unisex individual bathroom is a perfectly viable solution. I also understand the desire to want to blend in with the other 'girls'.

But for locker rooms, I think Anon is on it. The penis doesn't respond to the girls in the locker room. I wonder what the girls who would have to share it think?


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## EllisRedding

Anon Pink said:


> Whether she still have a penis or not has nothing to do with this. The penis in question responds to boys, not girls.


Maybe he/she is bi, who knows, so can't just assume his penis will not respond.


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## samyeagar

I know this is an extreme slippery slope example, but since there is no objective way to pre-op determine if someone is truly trans beyond how they feel, I wonder how many boys there are going to all of a sudden identify as trans, or at least consider it. I know likely not any because of peer ridicule if they did that, but still...


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## BetrayedDad

On the one hand,

The bathroom thing, meh. It's not like he's in the stall with them so what does he see besides them putting on makeup in the mirror?

That said, the locker room stuff is completely different.....

I really don't care what he "identifies" with.... he's a dude as long as he's got a pen!s intact. The girls should not have to deal with a confused boy running the locker room and worse the shower room.

Post op, then you can have a conversation about integrating he/she. Even then it's debatable, if he's still into girls like Caitlyn Jenner. Personally they should have separate facilities. It's his/her issue NOT theirs.

I don't think straight men/women should be forced to undress or shower with openly gay men/women either frankly. They can be aroused by the sight of others nude and why does anyone have to be objectified like that? What about OTHER peoples feelings? Why is it ALWAYS about appeasing the minority?


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## kristin2349

@EllisRedding your avatar selection is getting creepier by the day>


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## EllisRedding

kristin2349 said:


> @EllisRedding your avatar selection is getting creepier by the day>


Lol, just a guy dressing up like a toilet for Halloween >


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## Anon Pink

This isn't about confusion.

You know you're a male because .....? It's not just the fact that you have a penis. During your life time you've developed an affinity for your penis because it "feels right" to you. But what if having a penis has never felt right to you? What if you grew up identifying with Mom, sisters, other girls in the neighborhood? What if you came to understand that you are not only attracted to boys, but your orientation toward boys is based on you feeling like you are a girl who likes boys?

This is different from drag queens who are usually gay, different from cross dressers who are usually straight, and different from highly effeminate gay males.


Once a person comes to understand that their brain is gendered differently than their body and they want their body to reflect their neurological gender, they start taking the hormone that will give them the secondary sex characteristic of the correct gender. Once that happens, they begin to dress and act in ways that more accurately reflect their true gender identity. A male will take estrogen, develop breasts, loose facial hair, Adam's apple will not develop or disappear, muscle mass will be lost or not develop, facial features will soften, testicles will shrink, and getting erections will be difficult.

This isn't about a confused boy who wants a peak at girls.


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## EllisRedding

I am pretty sure restrooms/locker rooms are designated male/female based on the physical anatomy, not on how you feel. Make them all unisex and the issue goes away.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
Many societies have very deep social constructs built around gender and these are not easy to ignore. 

Many women have been taught since early childhood that it is wrong to be naked around strange men - and so it is not unreasonable for them to feel uncomfortable around someone who is biologically male. Many men would be very uncomfortable being naked around women.


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## Ceegee

I wish I would have known I could have had my own restroom by claiming to be trans.


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## NobodySpecial

In Korea, they don't have gender differentiated bathrooms and locker rooms, apparently. When Americans started traveling there, hotel gyms were advised to have separate gender locker rooms. They totally did not get the point. They had 2 different doors.... that lead to the same single gender locker room. They do have changing stalls... But still I just don't see what the BFD is with a body.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> In Korea, they don't have gender differentiated bathrooms and locker rooms, apparently. When Americans started traveling there, hotel gyms were advised to have separate gender locker rooms. They totally did not get the point. They had 2 different doors.... that lead to the same single gender locker room. They do have changing stalls...* But still I just don't see what the BFD is with a body.*


Ninth graders (guessing 13-14yr old girls) don't want to get naked in front of a chick with a d$ck, or likewise be exposed to such. Seems like a legit concern ...


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## Ceegee

EllisRedding said:


> Ninth graders (guessing 13-14yr old girls) don't want to get naked in front of a chick with a d$ck, or likewise be exposed to such. Seems like a legit concern ...


Nor do the parents (aka tax payers) want their little girl getting naked in front of or seeing a naked boy. 

The separate quarters was the best option.

Difficult situation for the school.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
It is sort of strange that if a boy sends a girl a picture of his **** he can go to prison, but its OK for him to be naked in front of her. 

The west and the US in general really needs to get its head on straight about sex.


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## Lon

So gender is supposed to be determined by the shape of a person's genitals? What if this transmale had been a female with a large clitoral? If a man has had his genitals amputated due to penile cancer or something like that, is he not permitted to use the men's locker room any more?

If a transfemale on hormones with facial hair muscles and even make pattern baldness but still had vagina intact and self identifies as male (think Buck Angel) went to use the women's locker room, does that make the females more comfortable than a transmale who identifies as a woman, has breasts and other secondary sex characteristics and dresses fashionably but so happens to have different shaped genitals than the average woman in the locker room? Just how many standard deviations from the mean must someone's junk be before their gender must be reconsidered?


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## NextTimeAround

here's a story for you:

Boy, 14, added to police database after sexting female classmate naked image | Society | The Guardian


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## kokonatsu

I'm pretty sure the separate dressing rooms is the most appropriate response. That way, that boy is not forced to change with the males, but the girls are not forced to change with a "chick with a d1ck". 

I for one would never have been comfortable with that situation if I were one of the grade 9 girls in that group.

I agree though, that bodies here in the West are over-sexualized. Any sign of nipple is unsightly/too sexy to be shown. breast feeding is apparently inappropriate as well. 

Are high school locker rooms the place to be debating such topics? My first thought was "no! why should our kids be forced to go through that!" But then my next thought was, "but if a culture needs to change, the easiest way to to change the children" so if we really want our culture to develop and advance, then we ought to be teaching them the lessons we want them to learn.


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## ConanHub

This issue is beyond stupid. Don't have a daughter but I would advise her to run from and report any man following her into a restroom or locker room.

I would take my girl out of any school system that allows men to violate her privacy and possibly compromise her safety.

On a public note. Any man follows my wife into a restroom and he probably won't make it to the E.R.

Men aren't women just because they say they are.

On another note. If some moron insisted to be allowed to go into the girls locker room when I was in school, there would have been a line of young men to wade through just to get my shot at him.

I am not for assaulting anyone for their preferences in sexuality but I would advocate beating the hell out of men claiming they "need" access to our wives and daughters in the restroom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> This issue is beyond stupid. Don't have a daughter but I would advise her to run from and report any man following her into a restroom or locker room.
> 
> I would take my girl out of any school system that allows men to violate her privacy and possibly compromise her safety.
> 
> On a public note. Any man follows my wife into a restroom and he probably won't make it to the E.R.
> 
> Men aren't women just because they say they are.
> 
> On another note. If some moron insisted to be allowed to go into the girls locker room when I was in school, there would have been a line of young men to wade through just to get my shot at him.
> 
> I am not for assaulting anyone for their preferences in sexuality but I would advocate beating the hell out of men claiming they "need" access to our wives and daughters in the restroom.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


See, this is kind of the sticky wicket here isn't it? Right, wrong, or otherwise, the reality is, we live in a less than trusting society, and with good reason.

In the case of trans gender issues, what complicates things is that there is no objective way to determine anything. Even if the person has gone through the full surgery, will full hormones treatments ongoing, the most base objective measure, genetic, will still reveal the individual as what they were born as, pre op, pre hormone.

This is a non issue in virtually every social situation, however things do become complicated when other peoples sexuality, and potentially sexual situations enter the mix, like the locker room. It is not an inherently sexual situation, but males compare to each other, females compare to each other. Regardless of how enlightened some people, men and women alike, claim to be, if they were in a coed shower with other men, there would be a fair number who would be totally checking the naked men and women out in a sexual way...maybe not overtly, but the sexual tension would be there...some wouldn't mind, some would.


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## Runs like Dog

Teenage girls are a pack of psychotic hyenas. One day of Trans person using their locker room and they will f^ck 'her' up. Then what? The girls were mean to me I want to go back to the boys?


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## NextTimeAround

Runs like Dog said:


> Teenage girls are a pack of psychotic hyenas. One day of Trans person using their locker room and they will f^ck 'her' up. Then what? The girls were mean to me I want to go back to the boys?


I can see where guys may start to think, well, she gets a full view of that transperson's equipment, why can't I show her mine.


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## Fozzy

ConanHub said:


> Men aren't women just because they say they are.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I honestly haven't made up my mind on this point, because my mind goes off on wild tangents. I get the idea of living your life as a different gender, but BIOLOGICALLY you can't change your sex, even surgically. You will always have the same XY or XX chromosomes you were born with.

If you commit a crime and they run your DNA--they'll come up with whatever sex you were born as, regardless of what surgery you've had. Which brings up some really interesting questions about the viability of DNA profiling. But I'll take that up on my Nancy Grace Junior Detective forum.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
Consider the complexity of gender in the following:

In the US they insist that TSA pat-down searches be done by officers of the same gender as the victim...er passenger. 

OK, but what if the passenger is gay? What if the officer is gay? Is the idea to prevent the officer from getting off on fondling a passenger, or to prevent a passenger from getting off on being fondled? To be sure must we require straight men to only pat down straight men, straight women to only pat down straight women, gay men to pat down lesbian women etc? Now add various forms of trans. What about a bisexual officer or passenger?? 

Back to the school issue: why do we separate genders? Are we worried about assault or accidental arousal - then how would we deal with gay students who are in principal an assault risk to their own gender? If we are worried about embarrassment, then a trans male may embarass women, but themselves be embarrassed in the presence of men. Is a trans male embarrassed in the presence of other trans males??? Does it matter if they are straight or gay?

Trans female is much more complicated: there is much less social stigma against women wearing "men's" clothes - so a women can dress as a man - but not really be trans. 

In places with a mix of adults and children does this change? Do we need multiple age categories?

This is really not simple!


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## Workathome

Anon Pink said:


> If the other girls who have to use the locker room at the same time as the trans girl don't want her in there, all they have to do is not undress and stand still watching and waiting until she is finished changing. Peer scorn alone will solve this problem.
> 
> I think the trans girl is out of line considering the age group.
> 
> Whether she still have a penis or not has nothing to do with this. The penis in question responds to boys, not girls.
> 
> What's needed here is conversation between the trans girl and her peers. Put them in the same room and let them grow an understanding for each other.


We don't know that the penis in question responds to boys, not girls.

Being transgender doesn't necessarily mean that she likes boys. Look at Caitlyn (previously known as Bruce Jenner). She identifies as a woman, but still prefers woman as sexual partners. (supposedly)


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## kag123

I Def don't see the big deal. We didn't get naked in front of each other in the locker room in high school, ever. Bra and underwear sure. But not naked. And no touching or even looking at each other occurred. Adult (female) staff were also always present in the locker room. In those days there was more concern over other activities going on in the locker room - drugs, cigarettes and cutting class was the big deal then. 

Who gives a sh!t if a trans girl wants to change there? The total time spent in the locker room was 5 mins tops. It's uncomfortable for everyone regardless of gender. A humiliating experience for all. All I ever cared about was GTFO of the locker room as soon as I could. 

I think people make a big deal about nothing.


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## Fozzy

kag123 said:


> I Def don't see the big deal. We didn't get naked in front of each other in the locker room in high school, ever. Bra and underwear sure. But not naked. And no touching or even looking at each other occurred. Adult (female) staff were also always present in the locker room. In those days there was more concern over other activities going on in the locker room - drugs, cigarettes and cutting class was the big deal then.
> 
> Who gives a sh!t if a trans girl wants to change there? The total time spent in the locker room was 5 mins tops. It's uncomfortable for everyone regardless of gender. A humiliating experience for all. All I ever cared about was GTFO of the locker room as soon as I could.
> 
> I think people make a big deal about nothing.



You definitely had a different experience with locker rooms than I did.


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## Marduk

How is this any different than a gay boy changing in the boy's change room or a gay girl changing in the girl's bathroom?


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## LonelyinLove

EllisRedding said:


> Forcing Girls To Share A Bathroom With A Gender-Confused Boy Is Abuse | TheBlaze.com
> 
> A teenage gay male at a high school (9th grade) made the switch and became a female.QUOTE]
> 
> Unless said male was able to alter his DNA, he is still a male.
> 
> I would like to self identify as a millionaire, but the FACTS of my bank account prove otherwise.


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## Fozzy

marduk said:


> How is this any different than a gay boy changing in the boy's change room or a gay girl changing in the girl's bathroom?


Playing devils advocate--it's been expounded on here on this site at length about the fear dynamics between a female and a male. The male human has a considerable size/strength advantage over the average female, and as such a female is often more concerned with her own safety moreso than a male would be in the same situation.

So from the perspective of a teenage girl--all she knows is that a teenage boy in a dress is in the room while she's potentially naked.


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## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> Playing devils advocate--it's been expounded on here on this site at length about the fear dynamics between a female and a male. The male human has a considerable size/strength advantage over the average female, and as such a female is often more concerned with her own safety moreso than a male would be in the same situation.
> 
> So from the perspective of a teenage girl--all she knows is that a teenage boy in a dress is in the room while she's potentially naked.


OK.

So a big tough lesbian in the girl's locker room is ok though?


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## Fozzy

marduk said:


> OK.
> 
> So a big tough lesbian in the girl's locker room is ok though?


Probably, yeah. And I'm speaking as a guy who once got decked by a big tough lesbian.


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## EnjoliWoman

I've never been in a locker room where girls are naked. Underwear, yes, if just changing clothing. All of the showers I've seen have curtains that you go behind to get naked.

Interesting that other cultures don't worry so much about changing.

I don't think I'd be particularly worried about a boy who wants to be a girl changing with the girls. He'll be more self conscious than the girls, likely, and would go to a stall. I don't think he's straight and wants to use this as a ruse to get into the locker room. And the minute he got an erection in his panties (if he were straight) the girls would give him HELL. 

As parents don't we worry most about assault? I don't think the girls are in danger here. I think the crossdressing (he hasn't had surgery so not transgender yet) boy is. With the girls he's outnumbered; with the boys he's outnumbered AND has to deal with the boys who are homophobic and a higher degree of potential violence.


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## CantePe

EllisRedding said:


> I am pretty sure restrooms/locker rooms are designated male/female based on the physical anatomy, not on how you feel. Make them all unisex and the issue goes away.


I was looking for a way to express my thoughts without being cruel. Thank you, I have the same sentiments.


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## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> Probably, yeah. And I'm speaking as a guy who once got decked by a big tough lesbian.


Ok. So it's not about safety then. 

So let's say said lesbian gets a sex change and gets a penis. 

Which locker room now?

Let's say the now trans person dresses as a male? Which then? Or as a female? What about then?

Is a penis the sole criteria for entry?

If the person identifies as gender-neutral, do you have to make them prove they have a penis or not?

Or is it a Y chromosome?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naiveonedave

EnjoliWoman said:


> I've never been in a locker room where girls are naked. Underwear, yes, if just changing clothing. All of the showers I've seen have curtains that you go behind to get naked.


My jr high had mandatory swimming in 8th grade, so naked it was in the locker room.

I really struggle with the transgender bit. Causes more issues than some on here think.


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## ConanHub

marduk said:


> OK.
> 
> So a big tough lesbian in the girl's locker room is ok though?


Jesus marduk!

You can't figure out the problem with men showering with your 13 year old daughter at the Y? Just because they felt "feminine" that day?

This isn't that hard in real life. Ideology really doesn't often work in practice.

I have no problem sharing restrooms or locker rooms with gay or effeminate men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantePe

Fozzy said:


> I honestly haven't made up my mind on this point, because my mind goes off on wild tangents. I get the idea of living your life as a different gender, but BIOLOGICALLY you can't change your sex, even surgically. You will always have the same XY or XX chromosomes you were born with.
> 
> If you commit a crime and they run your DNA--they'll come up with whatever sex you were born as, regardless of what surgery you've had. Which brings up some really interesting questions about the viability of DNA profiling. But I'll take that up on my Nancy Grace Junior Detective forum.


I'll put a question to you. What about hermaphrodites?

There was, back then, no way without dna tests for parents of hermaphrodite babies to determine actual gender. What about them? What if the parent, told by the doctors back then to pick a gender, picked the wrong gender.

Now we have dna testing to tell us what the chromosomal gender is of a full hermaphrodite. What do you do with the pre dna testing hermaphrodites living the wrong gender because the parents picked the wrong gender?

Hermaphrodites who feel their parents picked the wrong gender usually seek out gender reclassification surgery...


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## Marduk

ConanHub said:


> Jesus marduk!
> 
> You can't figure out the problem with men showering with your 13 year old daughter at the Y? Just because they felt "feminine" that day?
> 
> This isn't that hard in real life. Ideology really doesn't often work in practice.
> 
> I have no problem sharing restrooms or locker rooms with gay or effeminate men.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I totally get it.

I'm just having trouble drawing the lines, is all. 

Should a random adult male share an open change room or shower with my daughter? No.

Should a trans boy in the midst of transition to being a girl go to a boys change room or a girls one in school? I'm not sure. 

The lines seem murky. I'm in exploration mode, not decision mode.

And besides, you know me. I'm a contrarian.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

marduk said:


> Ok. So it's not about safety then.
> 
> So let's say said lesbian gets a sex change and gets a penis.
> 
> Which locker room now?
> 
> Let's say the now trans person dresses as a male? Which then? Or as a female? What about then?
> 
> Is a penis the sole criteria for entry?
> 
> If the person identifies as gender-neutral, do you have to make them prove they have a penis or not?
> 
> Or is it a Y chromosome?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wait.......what now?


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## Fozzy

marduk said:


> Is a penis the sole criteria for entry?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol:


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## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> :lol:


At least some one got the joke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

CantePe said:


> I'll put a question to you. What about hermaphrodites?
> 
> There was, back then, no way without dna tests for parents of hermaphrodite babies to determine actual gender. What about them? What if the parent, told by the doctors back then to pick a gender, picked the wrong gender.
> 
> Now we have dna testing to tell us what the chromosomal gender is of a full hermaphrodite. What do you do with the pre dna testing hermaphrodites living the wrong gender because the parents picked the wrong gender?
> 
> Hermaphrodites who feel their parents picked the wrong gender usually seek out gender reclassification surgery...


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## EnjoliWoman

People are seldom in a locker room alone. The entire class is in there and even with stragglers the last couple usually leave together. 

BUT - Why not have big unisex locker rooms with lockers on the wall and a row of curtained changing stalls with a bench in the middle for putting on shoes and a camera in there? Not IN the changing stalls but covering the common area for security/safety? Or two teachers/coaches?

We had so little time we had to rush in, change and rush back out to the gym. No time to ogle or harass.


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## samyeagar

EnjoliWoman said:


> People are seldom in a locker room alone. The entire class is in there and even with stragglers the last couple usually leave together.
> 
> BUT - Why not have big unisex locker rooms with lockers on the wall and a row of curtained changing stalls with a bench in the middle for putting on shoes *and a camera in there*? Not IN the changing stalls but covering the common area for security/safety? Or two teachers/coaches?
> 
> We had so little time we had to rush in, change and rush back out to the gym. No time to ogle or harass.


Yeah, that'd go over even better than the trans issue...


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## EllisRedding

EnjoliWoman said:


> People are seldom in a locker room alone. The entire class is in there and even with stragglers the last couple usually leave together.
> 
> BUT - Why not have big unisex locker rooms with lockers on the wall and a row of curtained changing stalls with a bench in the middle for putting on shoes and a camera in there? Not IN the changing stalls but covering the common area for security/safety? Or two teachers/coaches?
> 
> We had so little time we had to rush in, change and rush back out to the gym. No time to ogle or harass.


I would guess schools may be against this idea just purely on liability if something did go wrong. Also guessing the parents won't go for it (can't blame them)


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## EnjoliWoman

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, that'd go over even better than the trans issue...


As I said, covering the COMMON AREA. Not where you can watch people changing in little stalls. Put up signs that say "This area monitored by closed-circuit security cameras".


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## samyeagar

Of course, half the girls who would be uncomfortable with the trans being in the locker room and catching a glimpse of them in their bra have probably been sending and posting selfies wearing even less...


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## EnjoliWoman

America is so freaking uptight. The whole reason we are a highly sexualized nation (music, advertisements, television shows, teen pregnancy) all ties to our puritanical roots - nudity and sex is baaaaaad. Other countries aren't as freaking uptight about changing or sex and have fewer issues with nudity and teen sex.


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## naiveonedave

cameras, are you crazy? The other thing is who is going to pay for these retrofits?


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## EllisRedding

So which locker room should this person use?


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## richardsharpe

You could easily pay for it by selling the camera videos on the internet with the faces blurred.....>





naiveonedave said:


> cameras, are you crazy? The other thing is who is going to pay for these retrofits?


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## Marduk

Maybe we should have those backscatter thingys they have in airports but instead of blurring out the peens they blur everything out _except_ the peens.

You know, to keep the peens in the right rooms. Where they belong. 

Filthy things.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
The argument that they aren't naked in the locker room doesn't help. What about showers. How naked is OK for mixed biological genders? 

I really don't know what I think is best here. 

BTW: transgender isn't quite the same as cross dressing. What if a man dresses like a woman who is (as is very common) wearing masculine clothes???

We need mixing angles to describe this.


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## EnjoliWoman

I'm just saying as we move forward as a country, let's unisex things. Retro as it comes up. We waste money on $4K toilets so surely we can retrofit some locker rooms as the problem occurs over time. Look at long lines at the women's bathrooms in public places - let's just have unisex. What's the big deal? DO away with urinals - everyone uses a stall. Voila.


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## MountainRunner

ConanHub said:


> Men aren't women just because they say they are.


I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  *grin*


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## NextTimeAround

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> The argument that they aren't naked in the locker room doesn't help. What about showers. How naked is OK for mixed biological genders?
> 
> I really don't know what I think is best here.
> 
> BTW: transgender isn't quite the same as cross dressing. What if a man dresses like a woman who is (as is very common) wearing masculine clothes???
> 
> We need mixing angles to describe this.


I agree with you. Plus teachers have a lot of responsibilities on them anyway. 

Male and female teenagers changing clothes in the same room?!?!? There will be enough curious / aggressive types that a lot parents will not be happy with the results.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
I mostly agree, except urinals really are more space efficient. 

OTOH some biases are hard to overcome. I was on a train in Japan where the urinals were just off the hallway. There was a short swinging door just at waist height, but leaving everything above the waist exposed while people walked by. I found it very uncomfortable to use .




EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm just saying as we move forward as a country, let's unisex things. Retro as it comes up. We waste money on $4K toilets so surely we can retrofit some locker rooms as the problem occurs over time. Look at long lines at the women's bathrooms in public places - let's just have unisex. What's the big deal? DO away with urinals - everyone uses a stall. Voila.


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## Fozzy

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I mostly agree, except urinals really are more space efficient.
> 
> OTOH some biases are hard to overcome. I was on a train in Japan where the urinals were just off the hallway. There was a short swinging door just at waist height, but leaving everything above the waist exposed while people walked by. I found it very uncomfortable to use .


Dude.


Those are drinking fountains.


----------



## NextTimeAround

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I mostly agree, except urinals really are more space efficient.
> 
> OTOH some biases are hard to overcome. I was on a train in Japan where the urinals were just off the hallway. There was a short swinging door just at waist height, but leaving everything above the waist exposed while people walked by. I found it very uncomfortable to use .


You find that in a few places in Europe. Thankfully, not as many as there were before.


----------



## Fozzy

I dunno. The French have these pop-up self sterilizing bathroom.....pod....things. They just jump up out of the street, you walk in, do your business, and walk away. The ones I saw were pretty nifty, if peeing in public is your thing. The one in that picture looks like some kind of steampunk version.


----------



## Marduk

Fozzy said:


> I dunno. The French have these pop-up self sterilizing bathroom.....pod....things. They just jump up out of the street, you walk in, do your business, and walk away. The ones I saw were pretty nifty, if peeing in public is your thing. The one in that picture looks like some kind of steampunk version.


Do you mean mimes?

I hate those guys as much as anyone else, but I've never peed on one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Fozzy

Try it. Right when they do that thing where they're pulling on an invisible rope, give them something to really pull on.


----------



## EllisRedding

MountainRunner said:


> I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  *grin*


Reminds me of this meme ...


----------



## Lon

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm just saying as we move forward as a country, let's unisex things. Retro as it comes up. We waste money on $4K toilets so surely we can retrofit some locker rooms as the problem occurs over time. Look at long lines at the women's bathrooms in public places - let's just have unisex. What's the big deal? DO away with urinals - everyone uses a stall. Voila.


Then do put the seat down or can we leave it up?


----------



## Lon

MountainRunner said:


> I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.  *grin*


Oh yeah? Well I'm a lesbian transwoman trapped in a straight non-transexual man's body.


----------



## Lon

Fozzy said:


> Dude.
> 
> 
> Those are drinking fountains.


Yeah, those other guys were just filling up their water bottles with sparkling apple juice.


----------



## Ceegee

marduk said:


> Ok. So it's not about safety then.
> 
> So let's say said lesbian gets a sex change and gets a penis.
> 
> Which locker room now?
> 
> Let's say the now trans person dresses as a male? Which then? Or as a female? What about then?
> 
> Is a penis the sole criteria for entry?
> 
> If the person identifies as gender-neutral, do you have to make them prove they have a penis or not?
> 
> Or is it a Y chromosome?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sorry, the "Is a penis the sole criteria for entry" made me laugh.


----------



## MountainRunner

marduk said:


> Do you mean mimes?
> 
> I hate those guys as much as anyone else, but I've never peed on one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sadly I have to say I have, but I honestly thought he was having a seizure from a jellyfish sting only to find out that he was only acting. He could have said something, ya know?


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
you never know. I had a coworker - a very proper British gentleman once come out of a Japanese toilet (one with the cleaning attachments) soaked from head to toe. We never asked what happened.....

I still don't understand why some Japanese toilets have remote controls....with dozens of buttons

Toilets in Japan are... interesting - and many could be used as drinking fountains if you were so inclined.....

Last time we were in China my wife was somewhat dismayed by a train station toilet that was just a series of holes in the ground in a row - no screens of any sort between people....

In ancient Rome it was normal to have conversations while using public toilets. 

Societies have widely varying customs about nudity, sex and bodily functions. 





Fozzy said:


> Dude.
> 
> 
> Those are drinking fountains.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Trans/gay is the most compromised population. Certainly there's a bit of latitude can be granted. Women's bathrooms stalls, do they not?


----------



## EleGirl

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm just saying as we move forward as a country, let's unisex things. Retro as it comes up. We waste money on $4K toilets so surely we can retrofit some locker rooms as the problem occurs over time. Look at long lines at the women's bathrooms in public places - let's just have unisex. What's the big deal? DO away with urinals - everyone uses a stall. Voila.


The reason that there are longer lines for the women's bathrooms is because the women's bathroom only has stalls. More men can do their thing at a time because they have stalls and urinals. Get rid of the urinals and we will then have men and women standing in long lines. That's not much of a solution.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

This is now my new favorite funny (although slightly terrifying) thread going. 

On a serious note, well, as a single father (sole custody) of a 4th grade girl, this is just plain terrifying.. Sometimes I wish I grew up in simpler times.


----------



## EleGirl

EnjoliWoman said:


> I've never been in a locker room where girls are naked. Underwear, yes, if just changing clothing. All of the showers I've seen have curtains that you go behind to get naked.


I attended 5 junior high schools and high schools. Everyone had an open bay girls’ locker room with open showers… meaning no privacy at all. And yes, we were naked when we showered. I’m pretty sure that I did not attended the only schools that were like this.

I’ve been in plenty of public swimming pools and private guys that have similar setups.


EnjoliWoman said:


> Interesting that other cultures don't worry so much about changing.


While some cultures might not have issues with men and women sharing changing rooms, many do. Again, I’ve lived in many countries and most did not have mixed changing rooms. Most were far stricter about this than Americans were.


----------



## NextTimeAround

EnjoliWoman said:


> America is so freaking uptight. The whole reason we are a highly sexualized nation (music, advertisements, television shows, teen pregnancy) all ties to our puritanical roots - nudity and sex is baaaaaad. *Other countries aren't as freaking uptight about changing or sex and have fewer issues with nudity and teen sex.*


Is that right?


----------



## Fozzy

Personal said:


>


Why do Aussie guys wear panties to the beach?


----------



## Ceegee

Fozzy said:


> Why do Aussie guys wear panties to the beach?



Wonder which locker room those guys use?


----------



## EllisRedding

Fozzy said:


> Why do Aussie guys wear panties to the beach?


Out of everything in that picture, interesting you would focus in on the male undies ... hmmm ...


----------



## Shoto1984

So what if the trans person was pre op and leaning lesbian?


I remember another story a few months back where a dude who was making no effort to look like anything other than a dude let his gym know that he was identifying as female. He then began using the women's facilities. The women complained about the dude in the ladies locker etc. but were told the gym's policy was to accept each person's identified gender.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

@EleGirl I guess I've been fortunate. My junior high, high school and 3 gyms I've belonged to all had stalls with curtains. I've never seen an open shower - I thought those were only in the military.
@Personal I was referring to 'westernized' countries. 

Since sexuality and gender aren't the same thing, even in transgender, I just think having everyone use the same with stalls solves the problem. *shrug*

Maybe men's lines are quicker because of urinals. I still think it's a pain to have both. And how many single parents have posted here because they didn't want to send their very young opposite sex children into restrooms alone, or how awkward it was to take a 4y/o boy into the women's restroom or 4y/o girl into the men's room while they still needed help. Solved.

Add a little privacy but open to all genders.


----------



## EllisRedding

EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe men's lines are quicker because of urinals. I still think it's a pain to have both. And how many single parents have posted here because they didn't want to send their very young opposite sex children into restrooms alone, or how awkward it was to take a 4y/o boy into the women's restroom or 4y/o girl into the men's room while they still needed help. Solved.
> 
> Add a little privacy but open to all genders.


So men would now have to suffer with lines at bathrooms for what reason???


----------



## EnjoliWoman

EllisRedding said:


> So men would now have to suffer with lines at bathrooms for what reason???


Because it's better for families, it's better for women and for all who don't completely identify as heterosexual. Which puts all heterosexual men in the minority now.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Shoto1984 said:


> So what if the trans person was pre op and leaning lesbian?
> 
> 
> I remember another story a few months back where a dude who was making no effort to look like anything other than a dude let his gym know that he was identifying as female. He then began using the women's facilities. The women complained about the dude in the ladies locker etc. but were told the gym's policy was to accept each person's identified gender.


I remember a sign posted at a gym that I was using. It gave voice to the complaints that women had regarding other women bringing in their toddler sons to the women's changing room and how those toddlers were reacting to naked women in the changing room. This was back in the 80s, so I can't remember how the gym resolved it.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Like I said, wait for the girls to sort it out on their own. Then we can hear all sorts of shrieking that somehow they're the problem. Whereas the actual problem is deciding that every single special case is a general principal. I don't like slippery slope arguments but in this case I'll make an exception. If she was an actual she and identified as male and demanded to use the male facilities, I bet everyone's opinion would be different. It would be called sexual abuse.


----------



## NextTimeAround

Runs like Dog said:


> Like I said, wait for the girls to sort it out on their own. Then we can hear all sorts of shrieking that somehow they're the problem. Whereas the actual problem is deciding that every single special case is a general principal. I don't like slippery slope arguments but in this case I'll make an exception. If she was an actual she and identified as male and demanded to use the male facilities, I bet everyone's opinion would be different. It would be called sexual abuse.


I can't imagine any father taking his toddler daughter(s) into the men's changing room.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
There are also people like myself who are not comfortable getting naked in front of anyone.


----------



## EllisRedding

EnjoliWoman said:


> Because it's better for families, it's better for women and for all who don't completely identify as heterosexual. Which puts all heterosexual men in the minority now.


In my family the guys outnumber the gals, we will keep our bathrooms  . You can keep yours with your long lines! Plus, we would see how quickly women would want things put back to normal if they had to share $hitters with guys ...


----------



## EllisRedding

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> There are also people like myself who are not comfortable getting naked in front of anyone.


Are you a nevernude?


----------



## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> In my family the guys outnumber the gals, we will keep our bathrooms  . You can keep yours with your long lines! Plus, we would see how quickly women would want things put back to normal if they had to share $hitters with guys ...


I'm pretty sure NO ONE wants to share a sh!tter with me.


----------



## EllisRedding

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm pretty sure NO ONE wants to share a sh!tter with me.


lol


----------



## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> lol


That's me. I'm healthy!


----------



## arbitrator

kristin2349 said:


> @EllisRedding your avatar selection is getting creepier by the day>


*Much like some displaced penis in a girls locker room!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Rachel Dolezal anyone...

She was objectively white, but self identified as black...where was her support?

Seriously, if a person can self identify as something they are objectively not...absurd in the extreme here, but I think I will self identify as a dog for a bit today, and go sh1t on my neighbors lawn...


----------



## NextTimeAround

samyeagar said:


> Rachel Dolezal anyone...
> 
> She was objectively white, but self identified as black...where was her support?
> 
> Seriously, if a person can self identify as something they are objectively not...absurd in the extreme here, but I think I will self identify as a dog for a bit today, and go sh1t on my neighbors lawn...


I'm still trying to digest that one...... as I am a fair skinned black woman who has been repeatedly accused of acting white throughout her life. It's gets annouing when even white people accuse you of acting white.

I'm not completely comfortable with Whoopi Goldberg's opinion of this woman. 

And having worked for a school district that was trying to bring white people back into the central city with Magnet schools (ergo the district was looking for white students), then people become very creative with the definition of race.

My (white) husband told me I should get a DNA test. I'll have to look into that.


----------



## samyeagar

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm still trying to digest that one...... as I am a fair skinned black woman who has been repeatedly accused of acting white throughout her life. It's gets annouing when even white people accuse you of acting white.
> 
> I'm not completely comfortable with Whoopi Goldberg's opinion of this woman.
> 
> And having worked for a school district that was trying to bring white people back into the central city with Magnet schools (ergo the district was looking for white students), then people become very creative with the definition of race.
> 
> My (white) husband told me I should get a DNA test. I'll have to look into that.


I hope I didn't make you feel as if I was being an ass with that. I think the Rachel case was very instructive, and worthy of a broader dialogue. It is the closest analog to the trans gender issue that has gotten any real public awareness...things like can specific objective things be overridden, or discounted based on behaviors, such as what you described, and what many others can relate to, based on a persons feelings? Seriously though, where was her support? Where were the people backing her right to self identify? Why was she pretty much across the board an object of ridicule? Why wasn't she the hero that Bruce Jenner was?

Agree, or disagree, things like hiring quotas exist, so should self identifiers count towards the minority? Would it be alright to have an objectively all male police force, have half of them self identify as female, thus working around any EOE requirements?


----------



## kristin2349

arbitrator said:


> *Much like some displaced penis in a girls locker room!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well his avatar is a man dressed as a toilet for Halloween, is it a Trans friendly toilet @EllisRedding?


----------



## EllisRedding

Funny enough someone just posted this pic elsewhere, this car mod could solve all of our problems ... 

Edited for the children...


----------



## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> The reason that there are longer lines for the women's bathrooms is because the women's bathroom only has stalls. More men can do their thing at a time because they have stalls and urinals. Get rid of the urinals and we will then have men and women standing in long lines. That's not much of a solution.


Teach women to pee standing up. Now that's a solution.


----------



## EleGirl

EnjoliWoman said:


> Since sexuality and gender aren't the same thing, even in transgender,


I think that this idea that gender is what a person decides they are is a pretty new idea. The first time I heard it was about 10 years ago. Before that a person’s gender was decided by their plumbing. And those who had plumbing what was a bit confusing did not make it an issue of public display and discussion. I’m not saying that is this right or wrong. I’m only saying that is how it’s was for a very long time.

Look at how language and culture has evolved. I think that every language has pronouns that are distinct for male and female.

If a person wants to self-identify as whatever, it’s their business. Unless the guy is dressed up like a woman and truly looks like a woman, what I see is a man. I cannot look at a person and tell what’s going on in their head, nor do I care. And I know that I do not want to be in a private place like a bathroom or changing room with men. And no one has the right to tell me that I have to do this because they think it’s politically correct.


EnjoliWoman said:


> I just think having everyone use the same with stalls solves the problem. *shrug*


Have you ever been in a men’s bathroom? They are typically disgusting. Very smelly/dirty. I really do not want to have to put up with that sort of filth. 

Plus, I would never go into a closed room like a bathroom or locker/shower room where there are men if there were not a few other women. I would not feel safe at all. Sure most men would not assault/rape women. But there are enough that would take advantage of the privacy of an almost empty bathroom/locker/shower room.

Shoot, there are cities where women can hardly walk down the street, be on a train or other public transport without men being aggressive towards them. Now some want to put women in bathrooms and changing rooms with these same men? I don’t think so.

If you want to have mixed bathrooms/locker/shower rooms with me, go for it. I doubt that most women would go along with this. So maybe a 3rd gender bathroom, changing room and showers is a good idea. That way those who want to be in mixed gender situations can do it.


EnjoliWoman said:


> Maybe men's lines are quicker because of urinals. I still think it's a pain to have both. And how many single parents have posted here because they didn't want to send their very young opposite sex children into restrooms alone, or how awkward it was to take a 4y/o boy into the women's restroom or 4y/o girl into the men's room while they still needed help. Solved.


This is why a lot of places now have what they call ‘family’ bathrooms. It’s a place to take their children.
Why is it that people do not want to send their young boy into a male only bathroom alone? It’s because it’s not safe. It’s because some horrible things have happened to boys when they are in men’s bathrooms alone. Plus it’s because some gay men use men’s bathrooms for hookups. And we don’t know which bathrooms are commonly used for this. Do you want to now have to put up with the gay bathroom hook-up culture? (Yes, I know that not all gay men do this. I also know that now all men’s bathrooms are used this way. But some are.)



EnjoliWoman said:


> Add a little privacy but open to all genders.


I wonder what the cost would be to upgrade all public bathrooms to be non-gender specific. They would not only have to add stalls, but the stalls would need to a bigger than most are now to allow for doing private things like changing, adjusting clothing, etc in the stall. Sanitizing wipes would need to be added in all stalls so that toilet seats could be cleaned since some men do not pick up the seat to pee. And then there is a floor that will be sticky from men dripping on the floor. (yes I’ve cleaned men’s bathrooms before.. not a pleasant thing.)


----------



## brooklynAnn

I know of one all female college that denied a transgender applicant( male to female) because she did not complete her operation. She was told to reapply after her complete transformation. 

So, I can see where the argument of if you still have a penis, then, your transformation has not be completed.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> Funny enough someone just posted this pic elsewhere, this car mod could solve all of our problems ...


Have you read the forum rules? You know the one that says tat 


4. Do not post any content that would be inappropriate for young children to see. No graphic language, nude or sexually explicit images.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/2-posting-guidelines-forum-rules.html


----------



## samyeagar

brooklynAnn said:


> I know of one all female college that denied a transgender applicant( male to female) *because she did not complete her operation. She was told to reapply after her complete transformation. *
> 
> So, I can see where the argument of if you still have a penis, then, your transformation has not be completed.


And in the event he couldn't afford the operation...then is that discriminatory based on being "poor"?


----------



## EllisRedding

EleGirl said:


> Have you read the forum rules? You know the one that says tat
> 
> 
> 4. Do not post any content that would be inappropriate for young children to see. No graphic language, nude or sexually explicit images.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/2-posting-guidelines-forum-rules.html


What picture? :laugh:


----------



## brooklynAnn

samyeagar said:


> And in the event he couldn't afford the operation...then is that discriminatory based on being "poor"?


My take is that they were holding on to their business model of only accepting "female" students at admissions. Her financial aid papers had her still labeled as "male", so that is why they rejected her. Seems you need to prove to the birth certificate and Social Security offices that you had surgery, in order for those to get changed. 

Hopefully, insurance companies will start paying for these surgeries and people don't have to stay trapped in their birth sexes.


----------



## EllisRedding

brooklynAnn said:


> My take is that they were holding on to their business model of only accepting "female" students at admissions. Her financial aid papers had her still labeled as "male", so that is why they rejected her. Seems you need to prove to the birth certificate and Social Security offices that you had surgery, in order for those to get changed.
> 
> Hopefully, insurance companies will start paying for these surgeries and people don't have to stay trapped in their birth sexes.


Why would insurance companies pay for the surgeries? As is they fight for actually paying for legitimate health ailments.


----------



## EleGirl

Shoto1984 said:


> So what if the trans person was pre op and leaning lesbian?
> 
> 
> I remember another story a few months back where a dude who was making no effort to look like anything other than a dude let his gym know that he was identifying as female. He then began using the women's facilities. The women complained about the dude in the ladies locker etc. but were told the gym's policy was to accept each person's identified gender.


I had a friend some years ago who a born and raised as Stephen. After college he married, had children, etc. Then he decided he was really Stephanie. So he went through all the drugs and the operation.

As Stephanie he/she looked a lot like President Linclon in frumpy women's clothing.. adam apple and all. But Stephanie had a girl friend... a much younger, very beautiful girlfriend. 

Steven was heterosexual.
Stephanie is a lesbian.

Being transgender does not mean that a person will only be interested sexually in those of the opposite sex/gender/whatever.


----------



## EleGirl

EllisRedding said:


> So men would now have to suffer with lines at bathrooms for what reason???


To be fair. Yes to be fair, everyone must stand in rest room lines >


----------



## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> Rachel Dolezal anyone...
> 
> She was objectively white, but self identified as black...where was her support?
> 
> Seriously, if a person can self identify as something they are objectively not...absurd in the extreme here, but I think I will self identify as a dog for a bit today, and go sh1t on my neighbors lawn...


Yep........... or hump their leg... why not? If they complain, just bring a civil rights law suit against them.

I agree. If we are to accept trans-gender, we have to accept trans-racial... and now trans-species.

There are people who identify as some other species and even go as far as to get plastic surgery to appear more like that species for which they self-identify. I saw one guy who did this to look more like a lion.

Should we put in him the zoo? Or let him loose in Africa with the lions? I wonder how he'll fit in.


----------



## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> Yep........... or hump their leg... why not? If they complain, just bring a civil rights law suit against them.
> 
> I agree. If we are to accept trans-gender, we have to accept trans-racial... and now trans-species.
> 
> There are people who identify as some other species and even go as far as to get plastic surgery to appear more like that species for which they self-identify. I saw one guy who did this to look more like a lion.
> 
> Should we put in him the zoo? Or let him loose in Africa with the lions? I wonder how he'll fit in.


I have no trouble considering that kind of thinking an aberration, and I include transgender in that definition. It's pretty clearly (to me, anyway) a sign that something internally went wrong somewhere along the development continuum. 

So I also have no problem with the requirement that your external plumbing determine the rest room you use, since gender specific rest rooms aren't going away any time soon in the U.S. The public is not required to bend to your individual whim at every turn.


----------



## samyeagar

The slipery slope with this is allowing an individuals subjective self identification override objective identification, and even if trans is taken to the point of requiring the surgery before becoming recognized, which as I said earlier, could be viewed as financial disrcimination, what percentage of a persons skin need to be grafted before they are legally defined as no longer white?

And to make another absurdly extreme analogy...since ones subjective self identification can legally over ride their objective genetics, why not allow ones subjective self identification over ride genetics when it comes to paternity?


----------



## Cletus

samyeagar said:


> The slipery slope with this is allowing an individuals subjective self identification override objective identification...


"It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child. I remember the days, sittin' on the porch with my family, singin' and dancin' down in Mississippi... "


--Steve Martin, "The Jerk"


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Cletus said:


> I have no trouble considering that kind of thinking an aberration, and I include transgender in that definition. It's pretty clearly (to me, anyway) a sign that something internally went wrong somewhere along the development continuum.
> 
> So I also have no problem with the requirement that your external plumbing determine the rest room you use, since gender specific rest rooms aren't going away any time soon in the U.S. The public is not required to bend to your individual whim at every turn.


So straight men would rather have a pre-surgery transgender male using a urinal right beside them? Just curious, not arguing. I thought generally that gay men/transgender men were shunned from being around straight men. 

I think it's easier once a person has morphed more fully and blends in as an adult. I'm sure it's much more difficult as a teen/young adult still transitioning to the person they want to be.


----------



## Cletus

EnjoliWoman said:


> So straight men would rather have a pre-surgery transgender male using a urinal right beside them? Just curious, not arguing. I thought generally that gay men/transgender men were shunned from being around straight men.


I don't know any men who give a damn who's standing next to them at the urinal as long as he/she/it isn't peeing on his shoes. Where on earth did you get that notion?


----------



## samyeagar

At it's most base level, the question being debated is does ones own personal feelings and physical appearance trump genetics.

From a private perspective, this is largely a non issue, but from a public and legal perspective, the answer to that general question could have very broad and unintended ramifications since much of our societal structure is based on genetics with things like property succession, custody, medical decisions, etc.


----------



## NextTimeAround

samyeagar said:


> The slipery slope with this is allowing an individuals subjective self identification override objective identification, and even if trans is taken to the point of requiring the surgery before becoming recognized, which as I said earlier, could be viewed as financial disrcimination, what percentage of a persons skin need to be grafted before they are legally defined as no longer white?
> 
> And to make another absurdly extreme analogy...since ones subjective self identification can legally over ride their objective genetics, why not allow ones subjective self identification over ride genetics *when it comes to paternity?*


What do you mean by that?


----------



## samyeagar

NextTimeAround said:


> What do you mean by that?


Paternity is determined solely by genetics. Biologically, sex is determined solely by genetics...XX or XY, female or male. The base question at issue here is...with regards to law, is one allowed to subjectively declare that they are someone they are genetically not, and have their declaration take precedence over genetics.


----------



## Shoto1984

EleGirl said:


> I had a friend some years ago who a born and raised as Stephen. After college he married, had children, etc. Then he decided he was really Stephanie. So he went through all the drugs and the operation.
> 
> As Stephanie he/she looked a lot like President Linclon in frumpy women's clothing.. adam apple and all. But Stephanie had a girl friend... a much younger, very beautiful girlfriend.
> 
> Steven was heterosexual.
> Stephanie is a lesbian.
> 
> Being transgender does not mean that a person will only be interested sexually in those of the opposite sex/gender/whatever.


Exactly my point. Early in the thread it was suggested that as long as the penis wasn't interested that it was OK for a transgender person to use women's facilities. So in a pre op transgender lesbian you have someone who identifies as a woman and is attracted to women and has a penis that (it would seem) is interested..... just say'n.


----------



## Shoto1984

Cletus said:


> I have no trouble considering that kind of thinking an aberration, and I include transgender in that definition. It's pretty clearly (to me, anyway) a sign that something internally went wrong somewhere along the development continuum.


I think this is where I'm at on this issue also. You have a large population and you're going to have outliers. At some point along the developmental process something in that brain got wired wrong. It may or may not need mental health care but don't take our tax dollars to pay for radical surgery etc to change their body attempting to fit their mental condition.


----------



## Lon

EleGirl said:


> The reason that there are longer lines for the women's bathrooms is because the women's bathroom only has stalls. More men can do their thing at a time because they have stalls and urinals. Get rid of the urinals and we will then have men and women standing in long lines. That's not much of a solution.


Any place I've had the opportunity to see both washrooms, they had the same total number of fixtures. If we gave up our urinals then give us an equivalent amount of stalls. Also, if we could wear skirts and dresses too, then we'd be even quicker.


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> Any place I've had the opportunity to see both washrooms, they had the same total number of fixtures. If we gave up our urinals then give us an equivalent amount of stalls. Also, if we could wear skirts and dresses too, then we'd be even quicker.


Most women do not wear skirts and dresses anymore. Even if that’s what a woman is wearing, it is not always all the easy to be all that quick. It all depends on the undergarments which can be cumbersome. It’s a whole lot easier to just walk up to a urinal, unzip and do your thing. 

I’ve been in many places where there are more fixtures for the men than for women. Even if both bathrooms take up the same square footage, typically 3 urinals fit in the space of one toilet stall.

It’s only been in the last decade or so that new laws have been passed that require equal facilities for both men and women. But these laws do not apply to older buildings. Here’s an example.

US House of Representatives: There was no woman’s bathroom near the Speaker’s Lobby until 2011. Prior to that, the nearest women’s room was so far away that the time it took women to get to the bathroom and back exceeded session break times. The nearby men’s room, meanwhile, had a fireplace, a shoeshine stand, and televised floor proceedings. This same issue existed in every state capital in this country until very recently.

Other things that cause longer lines in the women’s bathrooms…. 

Women have to pee more often than men do because of how women are built.. our bladders are simply much smaller. We are much more prone to bladder infections which cause an ever more urgent need to pee very often. Things like pregnancy and periods cause us to have to use the bathroom more often. Women are also more likely to have children in tow who have to use the bathroom as well. Women’s clothing is more cumbersome that that of men. 

Women cannot just walk up to a urinal, unzip and pee. It’s just not that simple for us. Men take, on average, a bit less and one minute in the bathroom. Women take, on average about 3. So even if the number of fixtures are equal, lines for women’s bathrooms will be about 3 times longer.

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/11713/Anthony JPL.pdf?sequence=4


----------



## Lon

EleGirl said:


> Women cannot just walk up to a urinal, unzip and pee. It’s just not that simple for us. Men take, on average, a bit less and one minute in the bathroom. Women take, on average about 3. So even if the number of fixtures are equal, lines for women’s bathrooms will be about 3 times longer.
> 
> https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/11713/Anthony JPL.pdf?sequence=4


so maybe because men are more efficient at emptying our huge bladders, we are rewarded by business owners with more fixtures then?


----------



## Forest

EllisRedding said:


> Forcing Girls To Share A Bathroom With A Gender-Confused Boy Is Abuse | TheBlaze.com
> 
> So here is an interesting topic. A teenage gay male at a high school (9th grade) made the switch and became a female. The issue came up as far as what facilities he/she was to use. The school initially offered for him/her to use a private unisex facility, but she/he refused, insisting she/he needed to use the female facilities. Disregarding protests from female students who did not feel comfortable changing in front of a male dressed as a woman (he still has a penis), the school caved in to his/her request...


We're missing out on the discussion about how spineless the school system is in all this. to quote the article:

"A boy who wants to trespass in the girls’ bathroom is a “brave girl.” This is utter madness. Worse than madness, it’s a malicious and intentional effort to shame and scold young girls for not wanting a 17-year-old man in the room while they use the toilet."

The school is opening itself to liability here, and in a big way. This boy's use of the girl's restrooms/dressing rooms has been openly sanctioned by the school district. Should any girls feel they have been harmed, or their rights infringed, these girls and their families could easily file a civil tort case against the school system. Negligence, misrepresentation, intentional inflection of emotional distress; all tort claims the school may have opened itself to.

Maybe the school was worried about being sued by the boy? Which seems the greater risk, in liability terms? Telling the boy to use a private bathroom, or allowing him into girl's facilities? The school district could spend lots of money trying the cases, plus big money in damages.

BTW: I self-identify with being a king. So please respond with "Your Majesty" on any comments.


----------



## morituri

This is nothing more than legislation through litigation. Something, as a father of two young women, I am vehemently opposed to.


----------



## NextTimeAround

samyeagar said:


> Paternity is determined solely by genetics. Biologically, sex is determined solely by genetics...XX or XY, female or male. The base question at issue here is...with regards to law, is one allowed to subjectively declare that they are someone they are genetically not, and have their declaration take precedence over genetics.


On a couple of occasions I got speeding tickets in which the policeman marked me as White. I had wondered if I could contest the ticket simply on the basis that they got y race wrong.

On another occasion here in London a (white) American woman became friendly with me wanting me to volunteer in some activity that she was doing. I went a happy hour with mother and she was there.......... thereafter, she really cooled off towards me and no longer suggestions to do anything with her.

These I believe that appearance is destiny. I look white ergo, people think that I an white........ until the see who I am related.

What was that about genetics........?


----------



## minebeloved

in canada they are wanting trans men to be able to go into women's bathroom in public not just highschool. The incidence for rape is high.


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> so maybe because men are more efficient at emptying our huge bladders, we are rewarded by business owners with more fixtures then?


Oh yea, I'm sure that's what it is...  :rofl:


----------



## EleGirl

Leaders of a Tempe mosque have decided that if congregant Sumayyah Dawud wants to continue attending prayers and other community functions at the Islamic Community Center, she must either dress and pray as a man or provide medical documentation that she is anatomically female. 


Muslim Transgender Woman Kicked Out of Mosque | Phoenix New Times


----------



## EleGirl

NextTimeAround said:


> On a couple of occasions I got speeding tickets in which the policeman marked me as White. I had wondered if I could contest the ticket simply on the basis that they got y race wrong.
> 
> On another occasion here in London a (white) American woman became friendly with me wanting me to volunteer in some activity that she was doing. I went a happy hour with mother and she was there.......... thereafter, she really cooled off towards me and no longer suggestions to do anything with her.
> 
> These I believe that appearance is destiny. I look white ergo, people think that I an white........ until the see who I am related.
> 
> What was that about genetics........?


My son is adopted. He's half Hispanic.. his birth mother. His birth father is Irish. He apparently inherited his looks form his birth father 6'4", blue eyes, light brown hair.

He told me the other day that he's stopped telling anyone that he's half Hispanic. And specially to anyone who is Hispanic because the harass him if he tells them this.

I'm mixed race. Have 7 siblings. Half of us are light with blue eyes, the other half are darker, black hair, etc. We have been treated differently based how each of us looks. It's as much the "non-white" community as the "white" community that does this.


----------



## NextTimeAround

EleGirl said:


> My son is adopted. He's half Hispanic.. his birth mother. His birth father is Irish. He apparently inherited his looks form his birth father 6'4", blue eyes, light brown hair.
> 
> He told me the other day that he's stopped telling anyone that he's half Hispanic. And specially to anyone who is Hispanic because the harass him if he tells them this.
> 
> *I'm mixed race.* Have 7 siblings. Half of us are light with blue eyes, the other half are darker, black hair, etc. We have been treated differently based how each of us looks. It's as much the "non-white" community as the "white" community that does this.


Which two races? Mixed with Japanese ...... since that's the only ethnic group in which black (coloured) hair natural.

I get tired of when people wh know that I am black suggest that I have black coloured hair and eyes.


----------



## thatbpguy

EllisRedding said:


> Forcing Girls To Share A Bathroom With A Gender-Confused Boy Is Abuse | TheBlaze.com
> 
> So here is an interesting topic. A teenage gay male at a high school (9th grade) made the switch and became a female. The issue came up as far as what facilities he/she was to use. The school initially offered for him/her to use a private unisex facility, but she/he refused, insisting she/he needed to use the female facilities. Disregarding protests from female students who did not feel comfortable changing in front of a male dressed as a woman (he still has a penis), the school caved in to his/her request...


You are who you were born to be.

This is wrong.


----------



## EleGirl

NextTimeAround said:


> Which two races? Mixed with Japanese ...... since that's the only ethnic group in which black (coloured) hair natural.
> 
> I get tired of when people wh know that I am black suggest that I have black coloured hair and eyes.


Two races? Who said anything about two races? Most scientists acknowledge 3 or 4 races. Though some are now saying that there is really only one race and the differences that have been used to categorize 3 or 4 races are so superficial that they mean little to nothing.

I did a lot of google searching to verify your claim that only Japanese have black hair. Everything I could find says that all races have people with black hair. I know a lot of people who are not Japanese with hair that looks very black.. not dark brown but black. Some are in my family. 

I've lived in a lot of countries in Africa, Europe, and all of the Americas.. there's a lot of black hair in those places too.

But I'm not going to split hairs here about hair color. I was making a point that my siblings and I look very different and we are all treated differently by people of different races and ethnic groups depending on what our coloring is.


----------



## NextTimeAround

I learned in a posh white private school that there are only 5 races in the world.

I have noticed that there are looser definitions, however. The English will say "the English race" or "he German race" when in fact they are members of the same white race. I met a guy who claimed that he was "mixed race", that is of Scottish and Irish blood. Hoo-kay. 

So Ele, when you say "mixed race" which definition of "race" are using?


----------



## EleGirl

NTA.... I already gave the definition. 

In the past scientists tried to break humans into many racial catagories. Today they stivk to 3 or 4....*********, caucasoid, ******* and sometimes they add australoid.. I am everything except australoid.

Earlier I made it clear that it was more than 2. 3 is more than 2.

I really do not see what the big issue is. There are recists in all races. Then to make it worse, a good number of people try to turn ethnicity in race and discriminate based on that. Its all a crock. 

But trying to label all people of any action race or ethnicity as racist is just as big a crock.


----------



## Marduk




----------



## Marduk

thatbpguy said:


> You are who you were born to be.
> 
> This is wrong.


I was born to be a whiny little **** of an infant who pooped my pants and peed only when my mom would take my diaper off to change me.

Should I have stayed that human being?


----------



## Mr. Nail

Born to be? The whole point of this society wrenching adjustment is that we have some sort of proof that some people are indeed born to be different.


----------



## Forest

Thank goodness for this forum!

This evening I was helping a neighbor who had a cow that had given birth to twin bull calves. A pretty rare deal. He was a little disappointed, as he was in need of heifers (female calves) to expand his herd.

Previously, the laws of nature would have left this poor rancher with no recourse but to accept what is the truth. Just then I remembered the enlightening things I'd read here. I explained that "you are who you are born to be" was narrow, incorrect thinking. How could anyone not see the light?

We decided on the spot that BOTH of these calves should be heifers! Now all is happiness.

(I'll confess we're both a little quizzicle about how/when the calves penis and testes will change into a womb and udders)

Surely this will not prove as problematic as collecting taxes from my self-identified kingdom. The local knaves have been very reticent at paying their taxes and swearing their allegiance.


----------



## Marduk

Forest said:


> Thank goodness for this forum!
> 
> This evening I was helping a neighbor who had a cow that had given birth to twin bull calves. A pretty rare deal. He was a little disappointed, as he was in need of heifers (female calves) to expand his herd.
> 
> Previously, the laws of nature would have left this poor rancher with no recourse but to accept what is the truth. Just then I remembered the enlightening things I'd read here. I explained that "you are who you are born to be" was narrow, incorrect thinking. How could anyone not see the light?
> 
> We decided on the spot that BOTH of these calves should be heifers! Now all is happiness.
> 
> (I'll confess we're both a little quizzicle about how/when the calves penis and testes will change into a womb and udders)
> 
> Surely this will not prove as problematic as collecting taxes from my self-identified kingdom. The local knaves have been very reticent at paying their taxes and swearing their allegiance.


Why does it bother you if a man dresses as a woman and wants to identify as a woman?

Why does it bother you if said man has a sex change operation to make his body (at least kinda) match his wishes?

Or vice versa for a woman?

I'm not poking at you this time, I promise. Trying to understand.


----------



## Forest

(is anyone else using Chrome having troubles with the "quote" function?)

None of that stuff above bothers me, Marduk. Its not the situation we're dealing with here.

What bothers me is a male wanting to use the bathroom/lockeroom of females that are also nearly all minors/juveniles. 

He can dress or think whatever he wants. However, this kid is male. He's not a female. This is a school. He shouldn't go in the girl's bathroom.

You're aware he's not had any change in genitalia? (at least from what I've read) He simply changed his mind and clothing.


----------



## Forest

I got another thought for the scholars.

Next year, the captain of the football team Johnny Jocko is injured and out for the season. On a dare from his buddies goes to the administration and says he's now a girl. He wants in that girl's locker room, too. 

He pleads that although he still dresses, looks, and acts like a stud looking for a harem, he's sincere. He'll just curl up and cry if he can't go in the girl's locker room. Oh, forgot to mention: If denied, he'll also sue the pants of the school district because they've already set a precedent.


----------



## Forest

I have to say I'm surprised.

Surprised that the normally energetic feminist chorus here cannot muster the backbone to voice any kind of concern that young, juvenile females are at risk of being forced to share restroom and locker room facilities with males due to this shortsighted stance by a school administration.

Is a girl's right to feel safe in a bathroom or locker room less important?

We should now be ashamed for trying to protect underage girls from having males in their restrooms?


----------



## EleGirl

Forest said:


> I have to say I'm surprised. I shouldn't be, but am.
> 
> Surprised that the normally energetic feminist chorus here cannot muster the backbone to voice any kind of concern that young, juvenile females are at risk of being forced to share restroom and locker room facilities with males due to this shortsighted stance by a school administration.


Ah, you just love bashing "feminists" don't you? Quit a sport isn't it.

If you read the thread, you will see that some of the women are concerned about that. Some are not. We also have fathers and mothers of young girls posting here. Some voiced their opinion.

You really do need to send out bulletins to announce which threads you feel need the input from those who self identify as feminists. And you need to include which topics you want addressed. We are having a very hard time guessing what we are supposed to talk about and say per your desires. >


----------



## always_alone

Forest said:


> I have to say I'm surprised.
> 
> Surprised that the normally energetic feminist chorus here cannot muster the backbone to voice any kind of concern that young, juvenile females are at risk of being forced to share restroom and locker room facilities with males due to this shortsighted stance by a school administration.
> 
> Is a girl's right to feel safe in a bathroom or locker room less important?


This feminist thinks that we should just get over it, and are probably better off with unisex bathrooms.


----------



## always_alone

EleGirl said:


> You really do need to send out bulletins to announce which threads you feel need the input from those who self identify as feminists. And you need to include which topics you want addressed. We are having a very hard time guessing what we are supposed to talk about and say per your desires. >


And look how well it does work when that bulletin goes out! 

That's what I call instant gratification.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> This feminist thinks that we should just get over it, and are probably better off with unisex bathrooms.


Well you could probably start practicing what you are talking about by leading the way.

You could start identifying as a male and going into the men's room.

I guarantee you will have all the support you want if you start at truck stops.

Cultures that have no regard for the separation of the sexes in regards to restrooms and changing rooms are notoriously bad when it comes to women's rights.

China is waiting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

EleGirl said:


> Ah, you just love bashing "feminists" don't you? Quit a sport isn't it.
> 
> If you read the thread, you will see that some of the women are concerned about that. Some are not. We also have fathers and mothers of young girls posting here. Some voiced their opinion.
> 
> You really do need to send out bulletins to announce which threads you feel need the input from those who self identify as feminists. And you need to include which topics you want addressed. We are having a very hard time guessing what we are supposed to talk about and say per your desires. >


Bashing, eh? Come on.

Play that victim card. 

Where was this indignation when girls where being forced to share their bathrooms and locker rooms with males? Where was the concern about where it would lead?


----------



## EleGirl

Forest said:


> Bashing, eh? Come on.
> 
> Play that victim card.
> 
> Where was this indignation when girls where being forced to share their bathrooms and locker rooms with males? Where was the concern about where it would lead?


>


----------



## Forest

always_alone said:


> This feminist thinks that we should just get over it, and are probably better off with unisex bathrooms.


Now there's a brilliant and responsible attitude. I'm sure millions of schoolgirls would really benefit from such a foolhardy policy.


----------



## ConanHub

Co-ed bathrooms isn't even the issue here.

Our culture is not a co-ed restroom culture.

Different argument than men calling themselves women and demanding access to naked wives and daughters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

Funny how silent some places can be when the reality of these weakling PC politics are revealed. Hours without comment. Mention something about feminism though, and in seconds the fangs come out. Great work.

There are lots of young, innocent, girls that could be harmed by this, and you sit silently or placidly condone it. No outrage at all.
But to suggest you've fallen down as protectors? Lookout for the push back.

Fine. Protect. Act responsibly and think about what you're condoning.

You want your freshman daughter to have to with this? No? That's exactly what you are setting yourself up for if you jump on this bandwagon.

Yeah, I know. I'm bashing feminists if I care about this. Isn't the person looking out for the female interest the feminist anymore?

Sweet dreams.


----------



## ConanHub

I haven't seen all the feminists on TAM support this. Have I?

Do all the feminists of TAM support this?

I honestly had to leave this thread a while back because I was losing my composure and I haven't kept up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Forest said:


> Funny how silent some places can be when the reality of these weakling PC politics are revealed. Hours without comment. Mention something about feminism though, and in seconds the fangs come out. Great work.


LOL, your faux outrage is amusing. You do you, don’t you, that most of us work for a living, right? I’ve been at work since 7am this morning. After work I had to pick up some things at Lowes, then tend to the garden and the dogs, then made a salad for dinner from the garden veggies and roasted chicken and then ate dinner. It was only after that, that I sat down at the computer tonight. Then I got a call from a client who needs to set up an LLC and register a copyright TONIGHT.. love the “emergencies”. So now it’s 9PM. I was able to a couple of posts in tonight. The client will be calling back any minute to finish the ‘emergency’ work. 

Yesterday was pretty much the same.

But hey, I guess according to you I was supposed to be here on TAM monitoring this thread and posting here. I’m sorry that I did not realize that I was supposed to jump through your hoops. 

Way too funny.



Forest said:


> There are lots of young, innocent, girls that could be harmed by this, and you sit silently or placidly condone it. No outrage at all.
> 
> But to suggest you've fallen down as protectors? Lookout for the push back.
> 
> Fine. Protect. Act responsibly and think about what you're condoning.
> 
> You want your freshman daughter to have to with this? No? That's exactly what you are setting yourself up for if you jump on this bandwagon.


Um, who exactly are you talking about?



Forest said:


> Yeah, I know. I'm bashing feminists if I care about this. Isn't the person looking out for the female interest the feminist anymore?
> 
> Sweet dreams.


Yes, you are once again trying to turn a thread into a thread to bash women and feminism. It just gets tiresome.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I haven't seen all the feminists on TAM support this. Have I?
> 
> Do all the feminists of TAM support this?
> 
> I honestly had to leave this thread a while back because I was losing my composure and I haven't kept up.


Well... I don't support it. I'm one of those evil women who self-identify as a feminists. 

I posted my opinion more than once back on other pages of this thread. So I have no idea what he's going on about.

To be honest, I do not recall who did and who did not agree with it.

IMHO, the kid should use the gender neutral bathroom that is available at the school.

.


----------



## ConanHub

If the school system in question was taking this seriously, they aren't they are just being lazy at everyone's expense, they would start building restrooms and assigning them to each group that claims they are different and special.

If all the young men that claimed to be women had to go to a restroom/changing room with each other that would be far more fair.

We would also likely see a sharp drop in the number of men claiming they are women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround

always_alone said:


> This feminist thinks that we should just get over it, and are probably better off with unisex bathrooms.


Bring back Ally McBeal.


----------



## RECHTSANWALT

Interestingly, no action has been taken against the girl who circulated the naked pic of the said teen boy. Strange.


----------



## Forest

EleGirl said:


> Um, who exactly are you talking about?
> QUOTE]
> 
> You can imagine the precedent this has set in this school district, right? A boy demands to use girl's facilities. He is male, but they give in.
> 
> How is it that the next group of boys that walk in and want to use the girl's facilities can be denied?
> 
> How can that be a safe and positive thing for a 13 year old girl in her first year of HS? Will this even be limited to HS?
> 
> Are these girls not worthy of some sort of protection? Do their fears and feelings have no importance?
> 
> So, where are the feminists? (on a national scale, I mean) Why isn't Gloria (If You're Not A Feminist Your A Bigot) Allred filing lawsuits? Why isn't The View setting up a remote newsroom?


----------



## NobodySpecial

ConanHub said:


> I haven't seen all the feminists on TAM support this. Have I?
> 
> Do all the feminists of TAM support this?
> 
> I honestly had to leave this thread a while back because I was losing my composure and I haven't kept up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would call myself a feminist. I have not followed the thread closely. For my part, since the school made an accommodation for her to use a bathroom, she should use the damned bathroom. That's just me.


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Well you could probably start practicing what you are talking about by leading the way.
> 
> You could start identifying as a male and going into the men's room.
> 
> I guarantee you will have all the support you want if you start at truck stops.
> 
> Cultures that have no regard for the separation of the sexes in regards to restrooms and changing rooms are notoriously bad when it comes to women's rights.


I have used the men's room before, and I didn't even pretend to be a man. Sometimes the line-ups at the ladies is just too damn long!

I have also seen men use the ladies room,.without claiming to be a woman. Somehow we all managed to survive the experience.

The Romans had open toilets, no privacy at all, no segregation of the sexes. And the Greeks used to exercise in the nude, men and women together. And they are considered (by the Western world at any rate) the start of civilization.


----------



## always_alone

Forest said:


> How can that be a safe and positive thing for a 13 year old girl in her first year of HS? Will this even be limited to HS?
> 
> Are these girls not worthy of some sort of protection? Do their fears and feelings have no importance?


These innocent girls need to learn that the world is a complex place, and they don't need to leap to their bigoted defensiveness just because they don't understand something.

Transgenderism is not just a man "claiming" to be a woman to be titillated in he bathroom. And, sadly, where transgendered folks use the bathroom is a problem for them because the men object, and the women object, leaving them nowhere to go.

And the fact is, quite a number of people are born intersex, and they aren't clearly one or the other sex, biologically speaking. These people are assigned genders so they don't have to deal with all the hatred. Others have more clearly defined parts, but that are at odds with their identity. And these people need to sh1t and piss like the rest of us.


----------



## Cletus

Forest said:


> Funny how silent some places can be when the reality of these weakling PC politics are revealed. Hours without comment. Mention something about feminism though, and in seconds the fangs come out. Great work.


Dude - d!ck much?

You'll get a lot more traction going after people for what they say as opposed to what they don't say that you imagine they might say if they were to say what you seem to think they should. 

But you are doing a really good impression of a ceaselessly outraged feminist PC jihad militant. Someone swap your T pills for estrogen?


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> I have used the men's room before, and I didn't even pretend to be a man. Sometimes the line-ups at the ladies is just too damn long!
> 
> I have also seen men use the ladies room,.without claiming to be a woman. Somehow we all managed to survive the experience.
> 
> The Romans had open toilets, no privacy at all, no segregation of the sexes. And the Greeks used to exercise in the nude, men and women together. And they are considered (by the Western world at any rate) the start of civilization.


Both civilizations that you described have ceased to exist. Not great examples.

Current examples are countries with pretty bad human rights violations and even worse woman's rights violations.

There were many practices of the two ancient civilizations, that you mentioned, that were beyond barbaric and how were they on woman's rights?

Many of their everyday practices in those societies were vomit worthy.

I have seen what appears to be a direct link to how societies treat women and children in regards to safety, privacy and respect, and how good they are at human rights in general as well as how tyrannical and oppressive the government is to it's own population.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> These innocent girls need to learn that the world is a complex place, and they don't need to leap to their bigoted defensiveness just because they don't understand something.
> 
> Transgenderism is not just a man "claiming" to be a woman to be titillated in he bathroom. And, sadly, where transgendered folks use the bathroom is a problem for them because the men object, and the women object, leaving them nowhere to go.
> 
> And the fact is, quite a number of people are born intersex, and they aren't clearly one or the other sex, biologically speaking. These people are assigned genders so they don't have to deal with all the hatred. Others have more clearly defined parts, but that are at odds with their identity. And these people need to sh1t and piss like the rest of us.


Also not the topic at hand. People born with the defect you are talking about should have special consideration.

That is not at all what is going on here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Both civilizations that you described have ceased to exist. Not great examples.
> 
> Current examples are countries with pretty bad human rights violations and even worse woman's rights violations.
> 
> There were many practices of the two ancient civilizations, that you mentioned, that were beyond barbaric and how were they on woman's rights?
> 
> Many of their everyday practices in those societies were vomit worthy.
> 
> I have seen what appears to be a direct link to how societies treat women and children in regards to safety, privacy and respect, and how good they are at human rights in general as well as how tyrannical and oppressive the government is to it's own population.


Not only are both of those civilizations dead, but they did a lot of things that we consider profoundly WRONG today.

For example they both depended very heavily on slavery. And that's just one example.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> These innocent girls need to learn that the world is a complex place, and they don't need to leap to their bigoted defensiveness just because they don't understand something.QUOTE]
> 
> Your POV on this is offensive in the extreme.
> 
> You just dictated that every young woman who isn't comfortable sharing her nudity with any man that decides he wants to share the showers with her is a bigot and any parent, husband or concerned relative is a bigot as well.
> 
> Your views on this are apparently irrational and actually irrelevant.
> 
> You don't get to dictate to the world that they are all bigots because they don't want men to have access to naked wives and daughters.
> 
> I think your ideology is seriously getting in the way of reason here.
> 
> You are apparently, maybe willfully, blind to the actual realities of this world.
> 
> Maybe you are showing bigoted defensiveness fueled by a failed and unrealistic ideology.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

ConanHub said:


> Your POV on this is offensive in the extreme.
> 
> You just dictated that every young woman who isn't comfortable sharing her nudity with any man that decides he wants to share the showers with her is a bigot and any parent, husband or concerned relative is a bigot as well.
> 
> Your views on this are apparently irrational and actually irrelevant.
> 
> You don't get to dictate to the world that they are all bigots because they don't want men to have access to naked wives and daughters.
> 
> I think your ideology is seriously getting in the way of reason here.
> 
> You are apparently, maybe willfully, blind to the actual realities of this world.
> 
> Maybe you are showing bigoted defensiveness fueled by a failed and unrealistic ideology.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But isn't that the way of the world these days? I have seen people go on about rights, accepting differences, etc... BUT when you don't agree with them or have your own opinion you are labeled as hateful, racist, bigot, etc...


----------



## OnTheFly

ConanHub said:


> Maybe you are showing bigoted defensiveness fueled by a failed and unrealistic ideology.


This ^^^^ times infinity


----------



## Cletus

We are not all that different from Western Europe, and there are plenty of places there where nudity among people of all ages and both genders is common. Countries that have very good human rights track records - better than ours, in fact. So I'm not buying this direct link thing getting tossed around here.


----------



## Forest

Cletus said:


> Dude - d!ck much?
> 
> You'll get a lot more traction going after people for what they say as opposed to what they don't say that you imagine they might say if they were to say what you seem to think they should.
> 
> But you are doing a really good impression of a ceaselessly outraged feminist PC jihad militant. Someone swap your T pills for estrogen?


Dude d!ck much? Sheesh. What a way of expression you've got.

Are you trying to impress the middle school crowd, suck up to the women, or drive us crazy with muddled, run-on sentences?

So, what are you going to do to make sure girls have privacy in their bathrooms? What are you going to say about this precedent of allowing a boy into a girl's locker room, just because he wants to. Nothing, right?


----------



## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> We are not all that different from Western Europe, and there are plenty of places there where nudity among people of all ages and both genders is common. Countries that have very good human rights track records - better than ours, in fact. So I'm not buying this direct link thing getting tossed around here.


Great topic. If we wanted to start a thread about it, I could probably sell you on what you currently are not buying.

I would be interested in the school systems in Europe that you are talking about that allow young men to shower with the young women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

ConanHub said:


> Great topic. If we wanted to start a thread about it, I could probably sell you on what you currently are not buying.
> 
> I would be interested in the school systems in Europe that you are talking about that allow young men to shower with the young women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chill, dude. I never said it was part of the school system. Actually, I don't know if it is or is not. It is undeniably part of the culture. Doesn't seem to be creating a mutant race of serial rapists.

http://www.stripes.com/military-life/weinheim-get-ready-to-bare-all-in-german-co-ed-sauna-1.217181


----------



## Runs like Dog

The Danes are public nudists. They really don't have a problem with any of that. Family nude picnics are a thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> We are not all that different from Western Europe, and there are plenty of places there where nudity among people of all ages and both genders is common. Countries that have very good human rights track records - better than ours, in fact. So I'm not buying this direct link thing getting tossed around here.


I wish we lived in a culture that was not so hung up on sex and nudity and the like infusing them with all this super meaning. 

My saw me reading this board. He saw the infidelity board and asked, I don't get it? What is the big deal? I mean it's just sex. Seems to me the lying and dishonesty would be the really hurtful part. 

Yup.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I wish we lived in a culture that was not so hung up on sex and nudity and the like infusing them with all this super meaning.
> 
> *My saw me reading this board. He saw the infidelity board and asked, I don't get it? What is the big deal? I mean it's just sex. Seems to me the lying and dishonesty would be the really hurtful part. *
> 
> Yup.


Can you clarify the bolded. The way I read it Infidelity is ok as long as you are honest about it?


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Your POV on this is offensive in the extreme.
> 
> You just dictated that every young woman who isn't comfortable sharing her nudity with any man that decides he wants to share the showers with her is a bigot and any parent, husband or concerned relative is a bigot as well.
> 
> Your views on this are apparently irrational and actually irrelevant.
> 
> You don't get to dictate to the world that they are all bigots because they don't want men to have access to naked wives and daughters.
> 
> I think your ideology is seriously getting in the way of reason here.
> 
> You are apparently, maybe willfully, blind to the actual realities of this world.
> 
> Maybe you are showing bigoted defensiveness fueled by a failed and unrealistic ideology.


Here are some of the realities of the world:

The first segregated toilets were in Paris in 1739. 

In the US there weren't segregated public toilets until the late 1800s, and they were mandated by law in 1887. Before that, people somehow managed to share. 

Just because there is a unisex toilet does not necessarily mean that one is sharing one's nudity. There are such a thing as stalls.

In Japan, men and women bathe nude together in public baths, as a common cultural practice.

Intersex and transgendered people are people too. And deserve human rights as much as the next person.


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Also not the topic at hand. People born with the defect you are talking about should have special consideration.
> 
> That is not at all what is going on here.


And why do intersex people deserve special consideration, but transgendered people do not? 

The fact is that biologically speaking there is quite a bit of fluidity between the two sexes, and this is perfectly natural.

i object to your characterization of a transgendered person being a "guy who just wants access to nude females". This is a completely unfair characterization, IMHO.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Can you clarify the bolded. The way I read it Infidelity is ok as long as you are honest about it?


No the point is what is the big deal about sexual exclusivity. Why is sexual monogamy such a big deal. If it is honest, then it is not infidelity it seems to me. When your building a life together of love and commitment, things like 

compassion
honesty
integrity
empathy
communication


are SOOO much more important but largely overlooked in favor of sexual exclusivity. So even among people who choose monogamy, of all the possible ways a spouse could fail, sexual exclusivity failure just does not seem as big a deal to me as say dishonesty or lack of integrity.


----------



## Cletus

Forest said:


> Dude d!ck much? Sheesh. What a way of expression you've got.
> 
> Are you trying to impress the middle school crowd, suck up to the women, or drive us crazy with muddled, run-on sentences?


I'd answer, but as your clear intellectual inferior, I'm not qualified. Me and The Biebs are gonna go hang in the sk8 park and compare ink. The women will be all over us, but our sentences will all start with "Yo" and end with "babe". 

You've never been called out for being an ass before? I find that hard to believe. I got nothing against you - we both know it's happened to me plenty too.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> No the point is what is the big deal about sexual exclusivity. Why is sexual monogamy such a big deal. If it is honest, then it is not infidelity it seems to me. When your building a life together of love and commitment, things like
> 
> compassion
> honesty
> integrity
> empathy
> communication
> 
> 
> are SOOO much more important but largely overlooked in favor of sexual exclusivity. So even among people who choose monogamy, of all the possible ways a spouse could fail, sexual exclusivity failure just does not seem as big a deal to me as say dishonesty or lack of integrity.


If you choose monogamy, by the very nature, sexual exclusivity failure is a big deal. if not, then might as well have an open relationship.

I would consider it a big deal if my wife went out, had an affair, and brought home an STD much more than if she showed me compassion or failed to communicate with me ...


----------



## Runs like Dog

It's not useful to draw cross cultural comparisons. For example Thailand is fairly conservative, sexually, yet they are very open about trans men and women. South Africa is more puritanical than the US and yet has a rape problem that's the highest in the world. It's simply not useful to say such and such should be more like this other thing. It's not and that's all there is to it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> If you choose monogamy, by the very nature, sexual exclusivity failure is a big deal. if not, then might as well have an open relationship.


For me it just isn't. I don't know but let's say he is off on a business trip. Has a couple of drinks too many and winds up with some random person. I would not be thrilled. But if he came home and was like Oh Man I screwed up. Can you forgive me. It would not be the end of my world.



> I would consider it a big deal if my wife went out, had an affair, and brought home an STD much more than if she showed me compassion or failed to communicate with me ...


There is not a lot of honesty OR compassion in the scenario you just described.


----------



## ConanHub

Cletus said:


> Chill, dude. I never said it was part of the school system. Actually, I don't know if it is or is not. It is undeniably part of the culture. Doesn't seem to be creating a mutant race of serial rapists.
> 
> Weinheim: Get ready to bare all in German co-ed sauna - Military Life - Stripes


I'm being chill. I think it would be a fascinating discussion.

Anyway. I don't think the nudity in Europe you were referencing is the same as the topic of this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> For me it just isn't. I don't know but let's say he is off on a business trip. Has a couple of drinks too many and winds up with some random person. I would not be thrilled. But if he came home and was like Oh Man I screwed up. Can you forgive me. It would not be the end of my world.
> 
> 
> 
> *There is not a lot of honesty OR compassion in the scenario you just described*.


Well, we can definitely agree to disagree on the first statement

How is the bolded any different then your scenario? It is not like in your scenario your H knows off the bat he has an STD or is willingly passing on to you. Do you quarantine him until you are absolutely positive he is in the clear? How about if this was a female and she possibly got knocked up during this "indiscretion" ?


----------



## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Well, we can definitely agree to disagree on the first statement
> 
> How is the bolded any different then your scenario?


Intent and motivation.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> And why do intersex people deserve special consideration, but transgendered people do not?
> 
> The fact is that biologically speaking there is quite a bit of fluidity between the two sexes, and this is perfectly natural.
> 
> i object to your characterization of a transgendered person being a "guy who just wants access to nude females". This is a completely unfair characterization, IMHO.


You can object to an xy chromosome combination and penis with testicles until the universe implodes.

It makes your arguments irrelevant. Your arguments are ideological in their foundation and insubstantial in reality.

Object all you want. The young man in question has a correctly formed male chromosome combination and, unless undisclosed, fully functional male genitals.

Again. You are continuing on in the assumption that everyone must consider your ideological arguments substantial.

You are arguing ephemeral concepts that you insist take precedence over biological and physical facts.

I could as easily declare all women chattel and demand you honor that ideology in all of your points.

Don't you see how ridiculous this premise you have chosen is?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

NobodySpecial said:


> No the point is what is the big deal about sexual exclusivity. Why is sexual monogamy such a big deal. If it is honest, then it is not infidelity it seems to me. When your building a life together of love and commitment, things like
> 
> compassion
> honesty
> integrity
> empathy
> communication
> 
> 
> are SOOO much more important but largely overlooked in favor of sexual exclusivity. So even among people who choose monogamy, of all the possible ways a spouse could fail, sexual exclusivity failure just does not seem as big a deal to me as say dishonesty or lack of integrity.


Wikipedia says that this is what infidelity means:

Infidelity (also referred to as cheating, adultery, or having an affair) is a violation of a couple's assumed or stated contract regarding emotional and/or sexual exclusivity.

So I agree - it seems to imply that if a couple agrees to be non-monogamous, that isn't infidelity.


----------



## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> Intent and motivation.


Fail to see how that differs in my scenario vs. yours ...


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Here are some of the realities of the world:
> 
> The first segregated toilets were in Paris in 1739.
> 
> In the US there weren't segregated public toilets until the late 1800s, and they were mandated by law in 1887. Before that, people somehow managed to share.
> 
> Just because there is a unisex toilet does not necessarily mean that one is sharing one's nudity. There are such a thing as stalls.
> 
> In Japan, men and women bathe nude together in public baths, as a common cultural practice.
> 
> Intersex and transgendered people are people too. And deserve human rights as much as the next person.


I have no disagreement about rights. I believe young women in our country have a reasonable right to shower without men claiming to be women.

You are arguing that the young man in question has more rights than the young women in question or any other young man based on a claim with no basis in biological or physical fact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> You can object to an xy chromosome combination and penis with testicles until the universe implodes.
> 
> It makes your arguments irrelevant. Your arguments are ideological in their foundation and insubstantial in reality.
> 
> Object all you want. The young man in question has a correctly formed male chromosome combination and, unless undisclosed, fully functional male genitals.
> 
> Again. You are continuing on in the assumption that everyone must consider your ideological arguments substantial.
> 
> You are arguing ephemeral concepts that you insist take precedence over biological and physical facts.
> 
> I could as easily declare all women chattel and demand you honor that ideology in all of your points.
> 
> Don't you see how ridiculous this premise you have chosen is?


No, I don't. I am not objecting to male genetalia at all. I am objecting to your characterization of transgendered individuals, and their concerns and motivations when it comes to using the bathroom. 

These concepts are not at all ephemeral, and no less factual than what you want to call biological facts.

Consider the reverse scenario for a moment: A woman who is transitioning to be a man. Which washroom would he use? Do you think men would have a problem if a person with some girl parts were to use their washroom and maybe see their penises? Is it their right to be protected from having such a man in their bathroom, and does that right trump his right to be able to use a public washroom? Would you insist that this man should be using the ladies room, despite the inevitable objections about how it makes people "uncomfortable"?

What you want to call biological facts is actually a spectrum, and the truth is that we often have parts that belong to the opposite gender to the one we identify with. Often we are unaware of that -- because a lot of the woman parts are hidden. Or in other cases, we just have somewhat different shapes and sizes.


----------



## Forest

ConanHub said:


> I have no disagreement about rights. I believe young women in our country have a reasonable right to shower without men claiming to be women.
> 
> You are arguing that the young man in question has more rights than the young women in question or any other young man based on a claim with no basis in biological or physical fact.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you say these diversions are an attempt to redirect discussion away from an indefensible position? Do you know what happened in Paris 280 years ago? How about what's happening today?

Still, all these tangents fail to address this issue of whether this situation could open the door to other boys exploiting this decision. 

How would it be if the entire football team now came out as girls? Homosexual girls, but still girls that expect to be able to shower with the rest of the "girls". After all, the guys (or are they girls?) on the football team are no less female that Lila Perry.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> No, I don't. I am not objecting to male genetalia at all. I am objecting to your characterization of transgendered individuals, and their concerns and motivations when it comes to using the bathroom.
> 
> These concepts are not at all ephemeral, and no less factual than what you want to call biological facts.
> 
> Consider the reverse scenario for a moment: A woman who is transitioning to be a man. Which washroom would he use? Do you think men would have a problem if a person with some girl parts were to use their washroom and maybe see their penises? Is it their right to be protected from having such a man in their bathroom, and does that right trump his right to be able to use a public washroom? Would you insist that this man should be using the ladies room, despite the inevitable objections about how it makes people "uncomfortable"?
> 
> What you want to call biological facts is actually a spectrum, and the truth is that we often have parts that belong to the opposite gender to the one we identify with. Often we are unaware of that -- because a lot of the woman parts are hidden. Or in other cases, we just have somewhat different shapes and sizes.


The young man in question is unquestionably male.

His claims do not alter that.

You are bringing other arguments to this thread. I am actually very happy to debate you on a relevant thread.

You are swerving into many other topics, that I find interesting, but are not the topic of this particular thread.

Please don't start about the topic. This thread is about a young man that says he is a woman and instead of accepting a very reasonable accommodation he demands access to shower with young women.

That is the topic of this thread.

Your passion for gender indifference would be better received and expressed on a different thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Forest said:


> Would you say these diversions are an attempt to redirect discussion away from an indefensible position? Do you know what happened in Paris 280 years ago? How about what's happening today?
> 
> Still, all these tangents fail to address this issue of whether this situation could open the door to other boys exploiting this decision.
> 
> How would it be if the entire football team now came out as girls? Homosexual girls, but still girls that expect to be able to shower with the rest of the "girls". After all, the guys (or are they girls?) on the football team are no less female that Lila Perry.


I actually think we should start another thread. There is a lot to debate and converse about that actually doesn't directly pertain to this particular issue.

I'm on the same page with you on this one. We all might be better served starting our own debate thread about it where both anecdotal and non can be discussed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

Conanhub, I don't understand why you believe this could possibly be about a voyeur male being able to openly peep on naked young girls.

If you are going to defend your position using the chromisomal argument, then are you saying you think people that have undergone genital reassignment surgery, such as Caitlin Jenner, should in fact use the men's shower room? Or is it all about the penis? You can't have it both ways because you or I or no individual has the right to tell another what gender they are supposed to identify with. It's up to them, and each of us to decide. Changing restrooms is not a choice that a transgender person ever makes lightly, and as uncomfortable as you may feel I guarantee that it's a tiny fraction of the amount of discomfort they have experienced every single time they are in public.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> Conanhub, I don't understand why you believe this could possibly be about a voyeur male being able to openly peep on naked young girls.
> 
> If you are going to defend your position using the chromisomal argument, then are you saying you think people that have undergone genital reassignment surgery, such as Caitlin Jenner, should in fact use the men's shower room? Or is it all about the penis? You can't have it both ways because you or I or no individual has the right to tell another what gender they are supposed to identify with. It's up to them, and each of us to decide. Changing restrooms is not a choice that a transgender person ever makes lightly, and as uncomfortable as you may feel I guarantee that it's a tiny fraction of the amount of discomfort they have experienced every single time they are in public.


Another topic for another thread.

I could really care less about this man's motivations and am not arguing that point on this thread.

The facts are that he claims to be a woman. He does not want to shower with other men. He was offered private accommodations.

He rejected the offer and demanded access to shower with the young women.

Those are the facts. You are arguing motivations not I.

If I had to hazard a guess, I would say that he may be seeking external validation for his personal/internal choices but I don't know him. Probably a safe guess but you would be equally speculating to say what this man's motivations are or aren't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Your passion for gender indifference would be better received and expressed on a different thread.


Pointing out that sexual identity is not entirely clear cut, either biologically or psychologically, is absolutely relevant to the topic of this thread.

You are clearly not willing to allow that there can be any doubt whatsoever about this person's gender identity. 

I see it differently.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Pointing out that sexual identity is not entirely clear cut, either biologically or psychologically, is absolutely relevant to the topic of this thread.
> 
> You are clearly not willing to allow that there can be any doubt whatsoever about this person's gender identity.
> 
> I see it differently.


I would love to debate on a relevant thread.

What is going on in this man's head was not part of the OP and is highly open to speculation.

You have brought up many subjects that, while interested and worthy of hardy debate, do not address the OP.

We are not ancient Greece or Rome. We are what we are.

If you want to argue that our civilization needs to be altered, then ai
I believe you should make your case on a different thread.

Right now a young man is imposing his will on unwilling young women.

I think this has far more to do with protecting them than debating whatever is going on in the man's head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Pointing out that sexual identity is not entirely clear cut, either biologically or psychologically, is absolutely relevant to the topic of this thread.
> 
> You are clearly not willing to allow that there can be any doubt whatsoever about this person's gender identity.
> 
> I see it differently.


A good question for you pertaining to this story.

Why should the young ladies in question submit to this man's will and shower with him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

always_alone said:


> Pointing out that sexual identity is not entirely clear cut, either biologically or psychologically, is absolutely relevant to the topic of this thread.
> 
> You are clearly not willing to allow that there can be any doubt whatsoever about this person's *gender identity*.
> 
> I see it differently.


I think the point is not so much her gender identity but her gender reality.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> The facts are that he claims to be a woman. He does not want to shower with other men. He was offered private accommodations.


The fact is she has a legal right to claim being a woman, a right that is backed by a not insignificant amount of scientific evidence and expert testimony, and as a woman she has every legal right to be afforded the same privileges as all women. If she were to try to use the men's shower, she could lawfully be escorted out because that is a room which only those that self identify as men are allowed to use.

In essence, you are saying that transgendered people are to be shunned, by not being allowed the same public ammenities as the rest of society.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Lon said:


> The fact is she has a legal right to claim being a woman, a right that is backed by a not insignificant amount of scientific evidence and expert testimony.


I am curious. Any court precedent? Scientific evidence does not afford legal rights. Laws and precedent do.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> The fact is she has a legal right to claim being a woman, a right that is backed by a not insignificant amount of scientific evidence and expert testimony, and as a woman she has every legal right to be afforded the same privileges as all women. If she were to try to use the men's shower, she could lawfully be escorted out because that is a room which only those that self identify as men are allowed to use.
> 
> In essence, you are saying that transgendered people are to be shunned, by not being allowed the same public ammenities as the rest of society.


Absolute bvllshyt and I would happily debate your off topic points on a different thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> I am curious. Any court precedent? Scientific evidence does not afford legal rights. Laws and precedent do.


I could actually debate the "science" well on another thread but apparently it is too hard of a concept to stick to an OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Not making my comment about your post BTW. I'm sometimes unclear in my communication.


----------



## Wolf1974

Only in merica' do the wants of the one out way the wants and needs of the many.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> The fact is she has a legal right to claim being a woman, a right that is backed by a not insignificant amount of scientific evidence and expert testimony, and as a woman she has every legal right to be afforded the same privileges as all women. If she were to try to use the men's shower, she could lawfully be escorted out because that is a room which only those that self identify as men are allowed to use.
> 
> In essence, you are saying that transgendered people are to be shunned, by not being allowed the same public ammenities as the rest of society.


This is interesting. You have successfully drawn me into your thread jack.

It would be helpful if you could provide links to the laws in question so I could expedite my research.

Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

Wolf1974 said:


> Only in merica' do the wants of the one out way the wants and needs of the many.


In the latter generations, fewer are getting the "you can't always get what you want"; "things won't always go your way"; "stay out of the girl's bathroom or my brother will clobber you" speeches.


----------



## Mr. Nail

I see that we are still insisting on the males right to punch anyone who is different.


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> I would love to debate on a relevant thread.


Again, this is absolutely a relevant thread for this discussion. You are insisting this person is a man, and that it is a "fact" that this person is a man.

I am disputing that. According to the OP, he made a switch and is now a she.

You, of course, are entitled to your opinion that he is not allowed to do that. But I am entitled to my opinion that she can.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> The fact is she has a legal right to claim being a woman, a right that is backed by a not insignificant amount of scientific evidence and expert testimony, and as a woman she has every legal right to be afforded the same privileges as all women.


Hmmm. Would she be able to compete as a woman in the Olympics?


----------



## Lon

Wolf1974 said:


> Only in merica' do the wants of the one out way the wants and needs of the many.


You got it wrong, the rights of the one outweigh the wants of the many. Or at least that is what I always understood the first amendment was about.


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> Hmmm. Would she be able to compete as a woman in the Olympics?


Only if her androgen levels were not considered excessively high by IOC medical panel. Prior to 2006 they checked chromosomes but intersex athletes would be ineligible...

http://www.bustle.com/articles/7926...have-allowed-bruce-jenner-to-win-gold-in-1976


----------



## ConanHub

Mr. Nail said:


> I see that we are still insisting on the males right to punch anyone who is different.


Right, wrong or indifferent. Makes absolutely no difference to me.

A man follows my wife into the showers at the Y and he will be explaining things to God the next moment.

I am certainly willing to die on this hill and I'm probably in the majority.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

Mr. Nail said:


> I see that we are still insisting on the males right to punch anyone who is different.


Not really. The "brother" in this (obviously facetious) anecdote is actually a girl.


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> Again, this is absolutely a relevant thread for this discussion. You are insisting this person is a man, and that it is a "fact" that this person is a man.
> 
> I am disputing that. According to the OP, he made a switch and is now a she.
> 
> You, of course, are entitled to your opinion that he is not allowed to do that. But I am entitled to my opinion that he can.


Well if OP doesn't mind.

Your argument is belligerent in the face of science and fact.

Your ephemeral definition, of apparently anyone, consists of nothing more than what they claim.

You need far more support from every major scientific authority to start claiming your definition has any merit whatsoever.

You don't. Just your ephemeral ideology in the face of chromosomal and physical evidence that the man in question is in fact a man.

Are you in possession of some secret authoritative new science facts that actually prove that a person with fully formed and functioning xy chromosome combinations and fully formed and functional male genitals is in fact a woman?

Please share as I am not aware of any such finding and could easily disprove it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr. Nail

Shoot me Conan, I'm different than you.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> You got it wrong, the rights of the one outweigh the wants of the many. Or at least that is what I always understood the first amendment was about.


The devil is in what we define as a right and a want.

I would still appreciate if you have links to the laws you are referring to. 

The legality of this situation and the implications are very interesting.

Sorry to OP if this is jacking. If you mind, please speak up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Mr. Nail said:


> Shoot me Conan, I'm different than you.


Well I wouldn't be the first one to pull the trigger on you if you tried to shower with my wife.

If I got to you, a bullet would be far kinder to any man who made the assumption that he had access to shower with my wife.

This is all fun and games in a talk about ideology but far different in practice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> This is interesting. You have successfully drawn me into your thread jack.
> 
> It would be helpful if you could provide links to the laws in question so I could expedite my research.
> 
> Thank you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't have any specific case laws, but a quick Google search found the precedent in Missouri set by Jamie Miranda Glistenburg who along with legal name change was allowed to change his gender marker on his ID papers pre-op. I'm not sure what legal precedent this has in regards to shower rooms, but I highly doubt that any public institution would successfully defend in court a decision to not allow a female to use the room designated for females.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> This is all fun and games in a talk about ideology but far different in practice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, it's actually very straightforward in practice, it's only in your mind that you deliberately obfuscate it


----------



## Mr. Nail

Let me try to explain what I'm saying here with the recognition that it will likely be termed a "thread-jack".

Some time ago in a city near me a couple of young men beat the sh!t out of a friendly handicapped man. When they were arrested they explained that the beating was because they assumed the man was gay. So while the young bravo's understood that they couldn't just beat up anyone who looked at them, but to them their actions were perfectly warranted when applied to a gay person who smiled and waved to them.

So Personally I prefer to shower alone. I frequent places that offer privacy for that. 

So this thread is really about the rights of the genetically female students. Lets make another "what if". What if in a similar school there was a genetically female girl who had a congenital birth defect. Would it be fair to all the persons to insist that she use a separate bathroom and shower? After all the other girls would be exposed to her deformity. She could be embarrassed to be seen. What I am trying to say is that you can't discuss the rights of one person without discussing the rights of another.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> I don't have any specific case laws, but a quick Google search found the precedent in Missouri set by Jamie Miranda Glistenburg who along with legal name change was allowed to change his gender marker on his ID papers pre-op. I'm not sure what legal precedent this has in regards to shower rooms, but I highly doubt that any public institution would successfully defend in court a decision to not allow a female to use the room designated for females.


Thank you. That is a lead off for a search. 

It will certainly be interesting to see how the ramifications of some of these decisions will play out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr. Nail

Conan I'm different than you. I don't hit the weights every day. I read classics. I sew. I would never use that avatar. I'm just much less manly than you. You should probably start tracking me down.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> No, it's actually very straightforward in practice, it's only in your mind that you deliberately obfuscate it


I would certainly make the same assertion towards you.

I have far more hard science backing my position that the man in this story is in fact a man than you can provide that he is not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> Well if OP doesn't mind.
> 
> Your argument is belligerent in the face of science and fact.
> 
> Your ephemeral definition, of apparently anyone, consists of nothing more than what they claim.
> 
> You need far more support from every major scientific authority to start claiming your definition has any merit whatsoever.
> 
> You don't. Just your ephemeral ideology in the face of chromosomal and physical evidence that the man in question is in fact a man.
> 
> Are you in possession of some secret authoritative new science facts that actually prove that a person with fully formed and functioning xy chromosome combinations and fully formed and functional male genitals is in fact a woman?
> 
> Please share as I am not aware of any such finding and could easily disprove it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And here we are full circle back to what I was saying pages ago...subjective self identification trumping objective definition. The only true way to resolve this question would be to render the question moot by completely desegregating the sex in all facets of life. I suspect not many people would be willing to fully do that.


----------



## ConanHub

Mr. Nail said:


> Let me try to explain what I'm saying here with the recognition that it will likely be termed a "thread-jack".
> 
> Some time ago in a city near me a couple of young men beat the sh!t out of a friendly handicapped man. When they were arrested they explained that the beating was because they assumed the man was gay. So while the young bravo's understood that they couldn't just beat up anyone who looked at them, but to them their actions were perfectly warranted when applied to a gay person who smiled and waved to them.
> 
> So Personally I prefer to shower alone. I frequent places that offer privacy for that.
> 
> So this thread is really about the rights of the genetically female students. Lets make another "what if". What if in a similar school there was a genetically female girl who had a congenital birth defect. Would it be fair to all the persons to insist that she use a separate bathroom and shower? After all the other girls would be exposed to her deformity. She could be embarrassed to be seen. What I am trying to say is that you can't discuss the rights of one person without discussing the rights of another.


Actually, lets stick to what we are talking about. I am not discussing birth defects and the scenario you provided was not similar to a female shower room.

I have encountered many men, that claim to be women, in a public setting and violence was the farthest concept from my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

ConanHub said:


> Well if OP doesn't mind.
> 
> Your argument is belligerent in the face of science and fact.
> 
> Your ephemeral definition, of apparently anyone, consists of nothing more than what they claim.
> 
> You need far more support from every major scientific authority to start claiming your definition has any merit whatsoever.
> 
> You don't. Just your ephemeral ideology in the face of chromosomal and physical evidence that the man in question is in fact a man.
> 
> Are you in possession of some secret authoritative new science facts that actually prove that a person with fully formed and functioning xy chromosome combinations and fully formed and functional male genitals is in fact a woman?
> 
> Please share as I am not aware of any such finding and could easily disprove it.


None of my scientific sources are secret: 



> "It was thought that once established, sexual differentiation could not be undone," Nugent told PBS. "Our work shows that sex differences in brain and behaviour are epigenetically regulated, meaning that sex differences are not hardwired in our DNA but programmed during development."
> 
> Brain ?gender? is more fluid than originally thought, research reveals - ScienceAlert





> Translation: We now have some proof of a neurological distinction between gender identity and biological sex.
> 
> Neuroscience Proves What We've Known All Along: Gender Exists on a Spectrum*|*Ravishly



And there is more. Much much more.


----------



## ConanHub

Mr. Nail said:


> Conan I'm different than you. I don't hit the weights every day. I read classics. I sew. I would never use that avatar. I'm just much less manly than you. You should probably start tracking me down.


I love classics. I cook very well, better than Mrs. Conan and do it the majority of the time.

I am a bookworm and a geeky researcher and am friends with a wide variety of men and women.

Your presentation of me is inaccurate.

You and I could very easily be friends IRL and more than likely would be if given the chance.

I don't think comparing yourself to a man demanding access to a female shower room is very accurate anyway.
My avatar definitely represents a nature more than just a physical presence.

I am muscular but hopefully it won't be held against me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

always_alone said:


> None of my scientific sources are secret:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And there is more. Much much more.


I actually figured out their conclusions years ago so I definitely agree with them.

It does not alter the fact that he is biologically and physically a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

I am dubious about the white matter research but will investigate further. I really appreciate the resources. Thank you.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> The devil is in what we define as a right and a want.


By "right" I am referring to what is in the constitution.

And btw, this is the least threadjack-like comments I have ever made on a thread, we're debating the legality of a transgender boy using the female locker room on a thread titled "Transgender Male Using A Female Bathroom/Lockerroom"


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> I would certainly make the same assertion towards you.
> 
> I have far more hard science backing my position that the man in this story is in fact a man than you can provide that he is not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, I too tend to favor the notion of using the simple chromosome marker for defining the physical definition of male and female. And where there are "complications" with that, such as XXY chromosome or XXX, I'd allow the individual person to come to the conclusion on their own of which binary category they belong.

However, I am also about reasonable accommodation and legal rights, and quite clearly there are those for whom your and my chromosomal definition does not work for, who have gone to certain lengths to seek a way to reconcile their own self identify, so why should we put yet more roadblocks in their way?


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> Personally, I tend to favor the notion of using the simple chromosome marker for defining the physical definition of male and female. And where there are "complications" with that, such as XXY chromosome or XXX, I'd allow the individual person to come to the conclusion on their own of which binary category they belong.
> 
> However, I am also about reasonable accommodation and legal rights, and quite clearly there are those for whom your and my chromosomal definition does not work for, who have gone to certain lengths to seek a way to reconcile their own self identify, so why should we put yet more roadblocks in their way?


The point of contention comes when, in this instance, a man claims he is a woman and doesn't want to shower with other men.

I'm neutral here.

He is given reasonable accommodation by having access to a different room.

I'm fine with this.

He demands access to shower with the young women.

I have a serious problem with this. His claims about his preferences are one thing, imposing his preferences on the young ladies is crossing the line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

Conan, one thing I have not been able to determine about this particular person, Lila Perry, is if she has actually applied to the state or been granted a change to the gender marker on state or federal ID documentation... If school boards just merely said "if you want to use the girls locker room bring us legal documentation of your female status" I wouldn't object to that.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> The point of contention comes when, in this instance, a man claims he is a woman and doesn't want to shower with other men.
> 
> I'm neutral here.
> 
> He is given reasonable accommodation by having access to a different room.
> 
> I'm fine with this.
> 
> He demands access to shower with the young women.
> 
> I have a serious problem with this. *His claims about his preferences are one thing*, imposing his preferences on the young ladies is crossing the line.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Except, as these issues have unfolded, the point of contention for people that are actually transgender is that it is not a "preference" at all, rather they are, as AA's citation put it, "epigenetically" built that way. In which case, segregating this person into different room may not actually be a "reasonable" accommodation at all.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> Except, as these issues have unfolded, the point of contention for people that are actually transgender is that it is not a "preference" at all, rather they are, as AA's citation put it, "epigenetically" built that way. In which case, segregating this person into different room may not actually be a "reasonable" accommodation at all.


In situations like this, when the head and the naughty bits disagree, under the conditions of single sex dressing facilities, society has to make a decision. Since the dangly stuff can be easily examined but the brain waves cannot, offering the person the choice of showering with the physically similar gender or alone seems to this guy a pretty reasonable accommodation.


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> Except, as these issues have unfolded, the point of contention for people that are actually transgender is that it is not a "preference" at all, rather they are, as AA's citation put it, "epigenetically" built that way. In which case, segregating this person into different room may not actually be a "reasonable" accommodation at all.


So what would be a reasonable solution for young, juvenile girls that don't feel comfortable with a male in their bathrooms and locker rooms?

If I must clarify what I mean by male: I mean a human being with male chromosomes, male genitals, male build, male muscular development, size and shape, etc.

What should be done for them?

In this case, the person has already declined the solution Cletus suggested, and his wishes were followed.


----------



## EllisRedding

I just checked, turns out I am the OP, so feel free to take this discussion in any direction :grin2:


----------



## Unique Username

Should really be in the political section


----------



## EllisRedding

Also, at what point do we draw the line, or do we??? I mean, part of the issue here, everyone else is expected to change for this dude/dudette. After all, the people here who are saying get rid of gender differentiation (i.e go unisex instead of cowboys and damsels ) are saying because there is such a small minority who this applies to it is the responsibility of everyone else (overwhelming majority) to adapt. So once again, where do you draw the line. The next time someone comes out with something that is different, should that not mean everyone now has to adapt to this person?


----------



## Unique Username

BUT, since it's here and Schtuff is being discussed......

And OP said take it wherever.....

I am curious about Trans

so, let's take Cait Jenner as an example

Currently pre-op regarding genitalia 
and hasn't decided which direction she is going on the romantic/sexual arena....First she said she was attracted to females always has been - to which she would NOW having come out as Trans Female as a Lesbian
But - said in a recent show that she would be interested to know and would kinda like probably how it would feel to have a man taker her out on a date and treat her like a woman............I find this very interesting because it is probably Bruce Jenner's fantasy forever abou what it would feel to be like a woman and treated like a woman as he had treated women (dates, first and second wife etc)

So - right now I guess the correct lingo would be the "Q" = questioning...so a Trans questioning

I am really non-judgemental and posting because there are some things that i would like to have an intelligent conversation about


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> Except, as these issues have unfolded, the point of contention for people that are actually transgender is that it is not a "preference" at all, rather they are, as AA's citation put it, "epigenetically" built that way. In which case, segregating this person into different room may not actually be a "reasonable" accommodation at all.


Sure. For the sake of this part of the conversation let's say the research, very indeterminate at this point, is confirmed concerning your POV.

Does a man's thought process and pattern give him the right to shower with young women?

If you could connect with me on a scientific or ethical conversation, it would help me understand your POV.

I'm not always swayed by the "It's legal" argument.

Governments often have, and will continue to be, very unintelligent in the shaping and implementation of laws.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

EllisRedding said:


> I just checked, turns out I am the OP, so feel free to take this discussion in any direction :grin2:


Why thank you! I actually am very interested in several of the pov's expressed here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> In situations like this, when the head and the naughty bits disagree, under the conditions of single sex dressing facilities, society has to make a decision. Since the dangly stuff can be easily examined but the brain waves cannot, offering the person the choice of showering with the physically similar gender or alone seems to this guy a pretty reasonable accommodation.


No it's not reasonable to be shunned.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> No it's not reasonable to be shunned.


Nor is it reasonable to expect the entire girl's basketball team to shower with a penis, at least not in the US.


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> No it's not reasonable to be shunned.





Cletus said:


> Nor is it reasonable to expect the entire girl's basketball team to shower with a penis, at least not in the US.


So, Lon what would be a reasonable solution for young, juvenile girls that don't feel comfortable with a male in their bathrooms and locker rooms?

If I must clarify what I mean by male: I mean a human being with male chromosomes, male genitals, male build, male muscular development, size and shape, etc.

What should be done for them?

Because they were born female they should have no rights, or recourse in who is admitted to their showers?


----------



## Lon

Forest said:


> So what would be a reasonable solution for young, juvenile girls that don't feel comfortable with a male in their bathrooms and locker rooms?
> 
> If I must clarify what I mean by male: I mean a human being with male chromosomes, male genitals, male build, male muscular development, size and shape, etc.
> 
> What should be done for them?
> 
> In this case, the person has already declined the solution Cletus suggested, and his wishes were followed.


If they are uncomfortable changing in front of someone who has a right to be there, then they should be allowed to change in the individual room or not change at all.

Also, the longer a transgender undergoes female hormone therapy the more feminine they will appear, just because someone may be early in the process and heavy on the masculine side doesn't mean they are less rightful to be there than someone who has been undergoing hormone therapy for so long that she goes completely unnoticed.


----------



## Cletus

Lon said:


> Also, the longer a transgender undergoes female hormone therapy the more feminine they will appear, just because someone may be early in the process and heavy on the masculine side doesn't mean they are less rightful to be there than someone who has been undergoing hormone therapy for so long that she goes completely unnoticed.


So then you advocate for a system where self-identification trumps physicality.

Seems like a system with a high abuse potential.

And I disagree with the notion of shunning here. The student has two shower options at her disposal, one of which includes her classmates. Choosing to shower alone is also her choice.


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> If they are uncomfortable changing in front of someone who has a right to be there, then they should be allowed to change in the individual room or not change at all.
> 
> Also, the longer a transgender undergoes female hormone therapy the more feminine they will appear, just because someone may be early in the process and heavy on the masculine side doesn't mean they are less rightful to be there than someone who has been undergoing hormone therapy for so long that she goes completely unnoticed.


You fail to allow that in this case (to the best of my knowledge) and possibly in future cases no such hormone therapy is undertaken. Though post-pubescent, we are specifically discussing minor children. I don't know whether or not US doctors would engage in such treatments as you mention. Regardless, that apparently is not the case in this discussion. 

The solution you have put forth for the girls that are caught up in this situation is one that you yourself have called unacceptable.


Lon said:


> No it's not reasonable to be shunned.


You are saying the girls in the locker room can remove themselves if uncomfortable. They should remove themselves from their own restroom? From their peers? Is this not being shunned? Should they cover themselves to hide their gender, also?

The boy in the locker room has also been given this option, and has refused it. He's been offered the same option you propose for these girls. "If they are uncomfortable changing in front of someone who has a right to be there, then they should be allowed to change in the individual room or not change at all".

That's your answer? *The girls can take the same option this boy rejected, or fvck off?* 

Again, are you saying that girls by birth have no rights when it comes to who they must share bathing and restroom facilities with?


----------



## ConanHub

Forest said:


> You fail to allow that in this case (to the best of my knowledge) and possibly in future cases no such hormone therapy is undertaken. Though post-pubescent, we are specifically discussing minor children. I don't know whether or not US doctors would engage in such treatments as you mention. Regardless, that apparently is not the case in this discussion.
> 
> The solution you have put forth for the girls that are caught up in this situation is one that you yourself have called unacceptable.
> 
> 
> You are saying the girls in the locker room can remove themselves if uncomfortable. They should remove themselves from their own restroom? From their peers? Is this not being shunned? Should they cover themselves to hide their gender, also?
> 
> The boy in the locker room has also been given this option, and has refused it. He's been offered the same option you propose for these girls. "If they are uncomfortable changing in front of someone who has a right to be there, then they should be allowed to change in the individual room or not change at all".
> 
> That's your answer? *The girls can take the same option this boy rejected, or fvck off?*
> 
> Again, are you saying that girls by birth have no rights when it comes to who they must share bathing and restroom facilities with?


This is what I was asking him earlier.

Does a man's thought process/patterns give him the right to shower with young women?

Does his thought pattern trump the young ladies biology?

I don't believe it does but I am curious about those that do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

He is not being shunned either.

Look up the definition. He would not be allowed access to shower with females.

Not shunning by any means.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

ConanHub said:


> He is not being shunned either.
> 
> Look up the definition. He would not be allowed access to shower with females.
> 
> Not shunning by any means.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. None of the "progressives" are willing to really talk about how the actual minor girls are affected by this. They evidently don't give a tinker's damn about them.

I got into this last night, caused a minor blip, and got accused of being a feminist basher. [email protected]'s Bells, is anyone else trying to speak up for the girls in this matter? You've heard the term "fold up like a cheap suit" I guess?

Here on this "men's forum" we have an very vocal group that will spring into action anytime a comment with any minuscule amount of questionable material concerning the female race is made. You can't say "yowsa" about a female without all kinds of comments about oppression, burkas, male domination, you-name-it being flung back at you.
*

This* issue though? It seems style trumps all. I'm still waiting for any of those hot-rods to muster any real concern for the juvenile females caught up in this. They are quick to say I'm a feminist bashing troll, but won't say squat for the girls impacted by this. (reinsert "cheap suit" analogy) No, Ele, I'm not targeting you.

It seems that when current events collide with basic human rights for female children, the female children are tossed aside.


----------



## ConanHub

Forest said:


> Yeah. None of the "progressives" are willing to really talk about how the actual minor girls are affected by this.
> 
> I got into this last night, caused a minor blip, and got accused of being a feminist basher. [email protected]'s Bells, is anyone else trying to speak up for the girls in this matter?
> 
> Here on this "men's forum" we have an very vocal group that will spring into action anytime a comment with any minuscule amount of questionable material concerning the female race is made. You can't say "yowsa" about a female without all kinds of comments about oppression, burkas, male domination, you-name-it being flung back at you.
> *
> This* issue though? It seems style trumps all. I'm still waiting for any of those hot-rods to muster any real concern for the juvenile females caught up in this. They are quick to say I'm a feminist bashing troll, but won't say squat for the girls impacted by this.
> 
> It seems that when current events collide with basic human rights for female children, the female children are tossed aside.


I would agree about self proclaimed feminists in the public spotlight and media but I have seen at least two TAM feminists disagree with what is happening.

They aren't as vocally violent as me or you perhaps but they are on the same page non the less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> Chill, dude. I never said it was part of the school system. Actually, I don't know if it is or is not. It is undeniably part of the culture. Doesn't seem to be creating a mutant race of serial rapists.
> 
> Weinheim: Get ready to bare all in German co-ed sauna - Military Life - Stripes


There are all kinds of places in the USA where people do this. There are nudist clubs, nudist beaches, etc.

I've been in just about every country in western Europe. Everyone one of them had separate bathroom for men and women in public places. When there were showers (Like some train stations), they were connected to the gender specific bathrooms.

I've heard a lot about beaches in Europe where people go nude. But that was not the case on all the beaches I've been to in Europe.

I also hear that there are nudist beaches just about everywhere in the USA too. But I've never seen those either.

I really do not think it's all that different.


----------



## Lon

Cletus said:


> So then you advocate for a system where self-identification trumps physicality.
> 
> Seems like a system with a high abuse potential.
> 
> And I disagree with the notion of shunning here. The student has two shower options at her disposal, one of which includes her classmates. Choosing to shower alone is also her choice.


I'm suggesting that a person who believes their body is the wrong gender, seeks and receives medical and psychological treatment, undergoes drastic physical and appearance changes, and seeks to have their identification legally changed to a different gender deserves some recognition for their plight and acknowledgement of their human rights.


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> I'm suggesting that a person who believes their body is the wrong gender, seeks and receives medical and psychological treatment, undergoes drastic physical and appearance changes, and seeks to have their identification legally changed to a different gender deserves some recognition for their plight and acknowledgement of their human rights.


Do those who are minding their own business, and don't want to be forced to participate in this circus deserve any recognition?

Do they deserve any input as to who they should share facilities with? Or is that reserved solely for the transgender?


----------



## Lon

Forest said:


> Again, are you saying that girls by birth have no rights when it comes to who they must share bathing and restroom facilities with?


I'm saying those girls have the right to use the girls room or the choice to seek an alternative... The transgender girl is given no right to use the girls room and no reasonable choices.


----------



## Forest

Lon said:


> I'm saying those girls have the right to use the girls room or the choice to seek an alternative... The transgender girl is given no right to use the girls room and no reasonable choices.


This transgender boy has been given the same choices, refused them, and you support it. He has been given the right to seek an alternative, and refused. You support that.

Now, you believe females should bow to the same conditions, due to the fact they are not male? Because they are female, they should go "seek an alternative"--but not the male?

Should the females next seek an "alternative" to school? What are your suggestions? Maybe you'd like to see them in burkas, or arranged marriages? You certainly have no intention of trying to support their right to a safe, secure school experience.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon said:


> I'm saying those girls have the right to use the girls room or the choice to seek an alternative... The transgender girl is given no right to use the girls room and no reasonable choices.


See this is a matter of perspective.

I will never call a man a woman no matter what they cut off. You are willing to call him a woman just because he says so.

He isn't the same as the girls he is trying to shower with.

You are not abysmal in your intelligence so this is entirely an ideological issue with you.

You believe that any man that claims to be a woman has the right to shower with women. Not other women. He will always be genetically male.

He will never be like natural biological women, ever.

I know you are capable of understanding the difference between thought patterns and biology so arguing there is no difference between the young man in question and the ladies he wants to shower with.
I think you are being intellectually dishonest if you don't acknowledge the very real biological difference.

He was offered an acceptable substitution to showering with young men.

He desires to impose his will on all the young women he demands to shower with.

You can debate brain patterns till time ends but the brain is mysterious and fluid and far from fully understood.

Arguing that a man is no different than a woman because you say so is worse than infantile.

Stand in a ring with a pro fighter and tell him you are better than him and see how far it gets you in practice.

Argue your points more effectively. So far they are easily dismissed and frankly not worth much consideration.

So people are what they say they are regardless of biology or any other hard science item?

Prove it.

You can have any conversation you want with a wall and it won't argue back but people with an I.Q. higher than mold can shut down the argument "It's true because I said so".

Is that your sum total convincing argument?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

Forest said:


> This transgender boy has been given the same choices, refused them, and you support it. He has been given the right to seek an alternative, and refused. You support that.
> 
> Now, you believe females should bow to the same conditions, due to the fact they are not male? Because they are female, they should go "seek an alternative"--but not the male?
> 
> Should the females next seek an "alternative" to school? What are your suggestions? Maybe you'd like to see them in burkas, or arranged marriages? You certainly have no intention of trying to support their right to a safe, secure school experience.


Here's the thing... society (maybe not all of, but a significant enough portion of) is saying gender identity is not black and white, and that a person who identifies as the a gender that does not match the other four definitions of gender (chromosomes, gonad placement, gonad type and genitalia form) for their body, that they are by definition transgender.

Most jurisdictions have made reasonable accommodations of this state of being, including allowing them to change the gender marker on all official government documents. So... we must accept what that entails, there is no halfway female of halfway male - if the person identifies as female, and are afforded official acknowledgement of that, than by all accounts we must allow them the public ammenities given to females and to refuse to do so is discrimination on the grounds of gender (many states have not officially listed transgender as a protected right, but it is inevitable because it follows the basic tenets of the constitution).

If we give a transgender person legal standing (as we already have to thousands upon thousands of people already) then we have to be all in. We are forcing people into a binary system while at the same time acknowledging the reality may not be binary, therefore when we allow them to make their own determination which binary state to be in, we have to respect that process. You can be repulsed by this all you want, and you can shun these transgender folk day in and day out, but it doesn't resolve the issue unless you are willing to follow through with allowing them to be transgendered.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> He is not being shunned either.
> 
> Look up the definition. He would not be allowed access to shower with females.
> 
> Not shunning by any means.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


from Merriam Webster
Shun: to avoid (someone or something)

from Dictionary.com
Shun: to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid.

Requiring her to use her own changeroom, bathroom, shower while all the other females can use the public one is EXACTLY the same as keeping her away from the others and taking pains tp make it happen.


----------



## Lon

Forest said:


> Do those who are minding their own business, and don't want to be forced to participate in this circus deserve any recognition?
> 
> Do they deserve any input as to who they should share facilities with? Or is that reserved solely for the transgender?


It's too late for them to take this up with the founding fathers, but maybe they should take it up with their member of congress or a really good constitutional lawyer?


----------



## Wolf1974

Lon said:


> You got it wrong, the rights of the one outweigh the wants of the many. Or at least that is what I always understood the first amendment was about.


Lol you quote the first amendment which is about freedom of speech and religion. Not about a guy has the right to enter the girls locker room. And thier are laws on the books to prevent such a thing...so please don't call others wrong when you don't know to what you are even referencing. Even under the freedom of religion you don't have the right to arbitrarily make up nonsense to skirt the law. For example I'm not allowed to say I am making the religion of wolf tomorrow. In that religion we believe to have the right to enter the women's shower anytime we please. That's gods will of course and my right trumps your rights and your comfort apparently.


----------



## Wolf1974

Lon said:


> from Merriam Webster
> Shun: to avoid (someone or something)
> 
> from Dictionary.com
> Shun: to keep away from (a place, person, object, etc.), from motives of dislike, caution, etc.; take pains to avoid.
> 
> Requiring her to use her own changeroom, bathroom, shower while all the other females can use the public one is EXACTLY the same as keeping her away from the others and taking pains tp make it happen.


I actually think that a separate shower and restroom is the way the school should and will go with this. Guess if that's not ok and he has male parts he can shower still in the men's room


----------



## Lon

Wolf1974 said:


> Lol you quote the first amendment which is about freedom of speech and religion. Not about a guy has the right to enter the girls locker room. And thier are laws on the books to prevent such a thing...so please don't call others wrong when you don't know to what you are even referencing. Even under the freedom of religion you don't have the right to arbitrarily make up nonsense to skirt the law. For example I'm not allowed to say I am making the religion of wolf tomorrow. In that religion we believe to have the right to enter the women's shower anytime we please. That's gods will of course and my right trumps your rights and your comfort apparently.


forgive my lack of familiarity with US laws... I'm much more familiar with Canadian laws, specifically the Charter of rights and freedoms and the Human rights act which sets out prohibited grounds of discrimination including religion as well as gender, sex and sexual orientation. I suppose it has more to do with the equal rights amendment than the first amendment, and I typically equate the first amendment with the Charter (while neither of them specifically have to deal with discrimination).

Perhaps the USA does not have the constitutional clout with regard to gender, but in Canada it is spelled out clearly and makes a lot of sense after actually following examples where sex and sexual orientation have been before the courts. If this transgender student were in Canada I suspect my understanding of the issue to be much closer to the outcome I'm talking about.


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> I'm saying those girls have the right to use the girls room or the choice to seek an alternative... The transgender girl is given no right to use the girls room and no reasonable choices.


The transgender person was give an reasonable choice. She was told to use the unisex bathroom. Those are usually single person rooms. So she would have had privacy.

But refused to use the unisex bathroom and insisted that only the girls bathroom was acceptable.


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> forgive my lack of familiarity with US laws... I'm much more familiar with Canadian laws, specifically the Charter of rights and freedoms and the Human rights act which sets out prohibited grounds of discrimination including religion as well as gender, sex and sexual orientation. I suppose it has more to do with the equal rights amendment than the first amendment, and I typically equate the first amendment with the Charter (while neither of them specifically have to deal with discrimination).
> 
> Perhaps the USA does not have the constitutional clout with regard to gender, but in Canada it is spelled out clearly and makes a lot of sense after actually following examples where sex and sexual orientation have been before the courts. If this transgender student were in Canada I suspect my understanding of the issue to be much closer to the outcome I'm talking about.


Is it gender discrimination to say that, by law a man has to use men's bathroom or at least not use the woman's bathroom? Or visa versa?

Does anti discrimination mean that a man as the legal right to take a shower in an open bay shower with women in public places like swimming pools, guys, schools, etc?

Or does anti discrimination mean that there is no longer any privacy? 

If your wife is in a bathroom in a restaurant.. are you ok with a man going in there? (It's just her and this guy). Are you ok with that?


----------



## Lon

EleGirl said:


> Is it gender discrimination to say that, by law a man has to use men's bathroom or at least not use the woman's bathroom? Or visa versa?
> 
> Does anti discrimination mean that a man as the legal right to take a shower in an open bay shower with women in public places like swimming pools, guys, schools, etc?
> 
> Or does anti discrimination mean that there is no longer any privacy?
> 
> If your wife is in a bathroom in a restaurant.. are you ok with a man going in there? (It's just her and this guy). Are you ok with that?


Is it even against the law for a man to use a woman's bathroom? schools, businesses and workplaces may have rules to deny one gender access to the other gender's restrooms, changerooms and shower rooms, and there are even OHSA requirements, but I actually wonder if they would withstand legal scrutiny against any superceding human rights laws...

as for a dude showering in a public space, there are nudity laws that have withstood supreme court that make it unlawful to bare your genitals in public spaces. So whether or not its discriminatory, it's already illegal except in private spaces.

Anti-discrimination has absolutely nothing to do with privacy.

as for unisex bathrooms, it really depends entirely on so many factors such as the design of the room, stalls, context etc. Her safety in a unisex restroom really is no different than it would be in any place where people have to do necessary functions (a grocery store for instance).


----------



## Lon

EleGirl said:


> The transgender person was give an reasonable choice. She was told to use the unisex bathroom. Those are usually single person rooms. So she would have had privacy.
> 
> But refused to use the unisex bathroom and insisted that only the girls bathroom was acceptable.


if every person was required to use a unisex bathroom then it would not be discriminatory.


----------



## EleGirl

Some people seem to be oblivious to the fact that male sexual predators sometimes dress like women to get access to women-only areas like public bathrooms, dressing rooms, etc. With laws allowing any man to simply say that he feels like he's a woman, these guys legal access to these female only areas.... and to any woman or girl who is in them. In states that have these laws, no man can be challenged if he enters a woman's bathroom, locker room, shower room, etc. That includes bathrooms at elementary schools by the way. He does not even need to be dressed like a woman... but I'm sure it helps. All he has to do is say that he feels like a woman and no one can legally challenge his presence until he commits a crime. This is what some here are concerned about.... the men who will and do, take advantage.

Here is a list of a few of these types of cases that I found in a search.

There is a reason to be concerned because every one of the men listed here can now claim 

*Man Disguised as Woman Recorded "Hours" of Mall Restroom Video*

The L.A. County Sheriff's Department says suspect Jason Pomares, 33, dressed up like a woman to spy on women in a Macy's bathroom at the Antelope Valley Mall. Investigators say he had a concealed camera in a paper bag with a hole in it. "He was secretly and covertly videotaping women while they were using the restroom," said Sheriff's Sgt. Brian Hudson. "It appears he had been in the restroom for about two hours before he was noticed. Over a span of two hours, we've got video of several women entering and exiting the restroom. The way the camera was positioned, it was positioned where it could record what was taking place in one of the bathroom stalls, and on a baby-changing table that is located in the restroom."

Man Disguised as Woman Recorded "Hours" of Mall Restroom Video: Investigators | NBC Southern California


*Sex offender posed as woman, went into women's locker room*

A sex offender was sentenced to nine months in jail Tuesday for three misdemeanors related to dressing as a woman and going into the women's locker room at the North Clackamas Aquatic Center last summer.

Police: Sex offender posed as woman, went into women's locker room | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News

*
Man in bra and wig found in women's bathroom - admitted to other offense where he showered in the girls' locker room for sexual gratification*

A man wearing a bra and wig was arrested Friday after he was spotted in a women's bathroom at Everett Community College, police said. The man, later identified as Taylor J. Buehler, 18, of Lake Stevens, was placed under arrest. He admitted to officers that he was the suspect in an earlier voyeurism incident at Everett Community College on Monday, police said. In the earlier incident, he said he took a shower in the girls' locker room for sexual gratification, according to the police report.

Police: Man in bra and wig found in women's bathroom | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News


*Cross-dressing Peeper Infiltrates Cal Women's Locker Room *

On Monday, October 4, 2010 at 9:20 p.m. and again on Wednesday, October 6, 2010 at 4:30 p.m. a male disguised as a female was discovered in the Recreational Sports Facility women’s locker room. On both occasions the suspect fled the scene when confronted by staff members. In one of the instances the suspect was seen using a cell phone to photograph women inside the locker room. After each occurrence UCPD searched the area but was unable to locate the suspect. No one was physically contacted during these encounters.

Cross-dressing Peeper Infiltrates Cal Women's Locker Room | East Bay Express


*Man dressed as woman tried to take pictures in dorm, police say
*Sheriff's officials said their investigation revealed Petersen dressed as a woman and went to other "female-only facilities" in Rancho Cucamonga and Yucaipa, where he allegedly tried to take pictures with a cellphone hidden in his purse.

Man dressed as woman tried to take pictures in dorm, police say - LA Times
Rodney Kenneth Petersen Dressed As Woman To Take Photos Of Female Students: Police


*Purdue police investigate report of man taking photographs in women's restroom *

Purdue University police are investigating a reported incident in which a man dressed as a woman was seen taking photographs under the wall of a women's bathroom stall in Yue-Kong Pao Hall of Visual and Performing Arts. According to a police report, a woman was in a bathroom stall on the third floor of the building and saw a hand holding a blue flip-phone camera beneath the door. She left the restroom and then returned to confront the person. At that point, she realized the person was a man dressed as a woman.

https://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/080331PoliceVPA.html

*Transgender Student in Women’s Locker Room Raises Uproar - Exposes Self to Underage Girls*

The decision to allow a transgender 45-year-old college student who identifies as a woman but has male genitalia to use the women’s locker room has raised a fracas among parents and faith-based organizations, who say children as young as 6 years old use the locker room. The locker room at Evergreen College in Olympia, Wash., is shared with the Capital High School swim club and a children’s swim academy, along with the students at Evergreen. “The college has to follow state law,” Evergreen spokesman Jason Wettstein told ABC News affiliate KOMO. “The college cannot discriminate based on the basis of gender identity. Gender identity is one of the protected things in discrimination law in this state.” But according to parents, the fact that the student has exposed her male genitalia, in one instance in the sauna, is cause for concern. “[A mother] reported her daughter was upset because she observed a person at the women’s locker room naked and displaying male genitalia,” said a police report filed in September by a mother on behalf of her 17-year-old daughter.

Colleen Francis: Outrage over transgendered woman permitted to use college women's locker room 'exposing himself' | Daily Mail Online

Transgender Student in Women's Locker Room Raises Uproar - ABC News

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarne...der-man-to-expose-himself-to-young-girls.html


*Cross-dressing man arrested for exposure at Walmart*

A 51-year-old man wearing women's clothing was arrested for allegedly undressing in front of children at Walmart. Police say Norwood Smith Burnes, 51, of Rome, has a long record of indecent exposure and was on probation for public indecency when the latest incident occurred in the women's bathroom at Walmart in Calhoun, the Rome News-Tribune reported. Burnes was in "stages of undress while on the stone floor and would do this in the presence of several young children," witnesses told police. When police arrived, they found Burnes wearing a short skirt and jacket, black leather coat, high heels, red nail polish, green eye shadow and jewelry.

Cross-dressing man arrested for exposure at Walmart | www.ajc.com

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/police-man-undresses-in-front-of-children-in-walma/nJckr/


*SAN DIEGO — Police Sunday arrested a 30-year-old man who was *wearing a pink tutu when he allegedly attacked a woman in a toilet stall at a Big Lots store in Clairemont.

Investigators identified the suspect as Gregory Schwartz, who was arrested around 5:40 p.m. in the area of Clairemont Mesa Boulevard and Diane Avenue, San Diego police Lt. Chuck Kaye said.


Man in Barbie costume attacks woman in bathroom | FOX5 San Diego ? San Diego news, weather, traffic, sports from KSWB

*Sexual predator jailed after claiming to be ‘transgender’ in order to assault women in shelter*

TORONTO, March 4, 2014 (LifeSiteNews.com) – A biological man claiming to be ‘transgender’ so as to gain access to and prey on women at two Toronto shelters was jailed “indefinitely” last week after being declared by a judge a “dangerous offender.”
“Under the name “Jessica,” he was able to get into the women’s shelters, where he sexually assaulted several women in 2012, the Toronto Sun reports.”

Court heard how one woman awoke to find Hambrook assaulting her on her bed. “Her tights had been pulled down past her bottom and her bathing suit had been pulled to the side,” court documents reveal. “She yelled at the accused, demanding to know what he was doing. He simply covered his face with his hands, said ‘Oops!’ and started giggling.”

Court also heard evidence of Hambrook terrorizing a deaf woman living in the shelter. “The accused grabbed the complainant’s hand and forcibly placed it on his crotch area while his penis was erect,” court heard.

The same deaf women reported that Hambrook would peer at her through a gap between the door and its frame while she showered.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/s...laiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault
Predator who claimed to be transgender declared dangerous offender | Toronto & G


*Cross-dressing Peeper Infiltrates Cal Women's Locker Room*
*
“A man dressed as a woman has been spotted peeping at females and photographing them in a UC Berkeley locker room.”*

Cross-dressing Peeper Infiltrates Cal Women's Locker Room | East Bay Express


*San Jose sex offender wearing fake breasts, wig arrested for loitering in womens' restroom*

It's not a crime for a man to put on a wig and fake breasts.
But it is a crime if you're wearing them and hanging out in a womens' restroom.

Richard Rendler, 60, of San Jose, a registered sex offender, found that out on Friday in Campbell, when he was arrested at the PruneYard Shopping Center on misdemeanor loitering charges.

San Jose sex offender wearing fake breasts, wig arrested for loitering in womens' restroom - San Jose Mercury News

*Cross-Dressing Sex Offender Arrested, Accused of Illegally Walking onto Jewish School Campus in Sunnyvale*

Cross-Dressing Sex Offender Arrested, Accused of Illegally Walking onto Jewish School Campus in Sunnyvale | NBC Bay Area


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> Is it even against the law for a man to use a woman's bathroom? schools, businesses and workplaces may have rules to deny one gender access to the other gender's restrooms, changerooms and shower rooms, and there are even OHSA requirements, but I actually wonder if they would withstand legal scrutiny against any superceding human rights laws...


Some states and/or municipalities have laws stating that if gender specific bathrooms, changing rooms, etc. exist that a person has to use the one for their gender. That was when people recognized two genders. Now that there are endless genders, who knows.



Lon said:


> as for a dude showering in a public space, there are nudity laws that have withstood supreme court that make it unlawful to bare your genitals in public spaces. So whether or not its discriminatory, it's already illegal except in private spaces.


There are already males (humans with penis) who are showering and stripping nude in places like women’s changing rooms and bathrooms in public places. As long as they state that they feel like they are a woman, they can do it all day long, even in front of 6 year old children. So now it’s apparently legal to expose to children.


Lon said:


> Anti-discrimination has absolutely nothing to do with privacy.


Apparently privacy is not a right. 


Lon said:


> Her safety in a unisex restroom really is no different than it would be in any place where people have to do necessary functions (a grocery store for instance).


She was offered the use of a PRIVATE unisex bathroom. That means that she locks the door and is the only person in there. That sounds very safe to me.

I’m not sure what you mean that her safety be no different in a private unisex restroom than in a grocery store.

There would be no one but her in the private unisex bathroom, unless the sink assaults her, she’s pretty safe there.

The grocery store is a large, open area. There are usually quite a few people shopping and working there. She’s probably pretty safe in a grocery store. But you never know when there are other people around. Some nut case, serial killer might be there. 

The girls in the girl’s bathroom and girls’ locker room in the school apparently do not fell that safe around this transgender person. But apparently they have no rights to privacy.


Lon said:


> as for unisex bathrooms, it really depends entirely on so many factors such as the design of the room, stalls, context etc.


Again, she was offered a private unisex bathroom. That’s about as private and safe as it gets.

What I think is going to have to happen is that the school systems will now have to remodel to go to one bathroom for everyone. 

The stalls will need to more far more expensive than the existing ones. In most bathrooms, stalls are not completely private as we can see into the stalls around the door and people’s feet show. 

Locks on stalls will be problematic since they often break. This means that the doors will be ajar while a person is using the stalls. 

There will no longer be urinals because, well, women do not want to see men peeing.. .that’s men exposing themselves. Since 3 urinals fit in the space on one toilet stall.. men will have 1/3 the places to pee.
What I find the funniest part of all this is that men will then have to wait in line with women to use the facilities. There will be far fewer facilities when there were gender specific restrooms. I hope all you guys enjoy the long lines as much as we women have… LOL… Life’s unintended consequences.


----------



## EleGirl

Lon said:


> if every person was required to use a unisex bathroom then it would not be discriminatory.


Yes, and it will seriously drive up the cost of most businesses to provide restrooms.

Government will also have to remodel the thousands of restrooms that they have because few if any of the existing multi facility bathrooms provide enough privacy for each stall to be unisex.

I would also suggest video cameras that record everything except inside each stall for safety.


----------



## ConanHub

Lon. You want everyone to behave with, act and accept a physical male as a female in every aspect.

This denotes a deviant and flawed mind but I suspect you are a hypocrite.

How many of these "women" have you dated, pursued romantically and had sex with?

Did you marry one of these "women"?

If your answer is zero and no then you are a hypocrite requiring others to behave in a manner in which you are unwilling.

Before you say you aren't orientated that way you better examine your own statements.

This isn't an orientation issue.

You have stated that the man in question is a woman and deserves to be treated like a woman in a very real and personal way. It is a very private and personal experience for someone to disrobe in front of the opposite sex.

You want these young ladies to treat this very physical male exactly like a female in their showers.

How many pre-op transgender men have you had sex with, dated and or married?

You are the one saying "she" is a woman deserving of being treated like a physical woman by the young women in question.

How many pre-op transgender men have you done the same for?

You are deviant/flawed at best and a hypocrite at worst.

I was actually wasting thoughts on your position until it hit me what you are actually saying.

You could actually care less about the science.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Title 9 Collegiate Athletics...a bunch of chromosomal males who decide to self identify as females trying out for the Women's Basketball team...

One also has to tread very lightly too if going down the pre-treatment and pre-op vs post-treatment and post op road as the demarcation as to when it becomes "official" because the treatments and surgeries are extremely expensive. There would undoubtedly be an element of financial discrimination and being able to buy one's way into a protected class...


----------



## ConanHub

BTW I AM GOD!!!

I'm getting tired of Lon arguing with my divine edict.

It is understandable that he didn't realize I am god but now that I have said it he better acknowledge I am god in a very real way.

What a silly ideology. WOW! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

ConanHub said:


> BTW I AM GOD!!!
> 
> I'm getting tired of Lon arguing with my divine edict.
> 
> It is understandable that he didn't realize I am god but now that I have said it he better acknowledge I am god in a very real way.
> 
> What a silly ideology. WOW!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Since objective genetics don't matter, I still want to self identify as a dog sometime and take a sh1t on my neighbors lawn...or maybe leg hump his wife?


----------



## NobodySpecial

samyeagar said:


> Since objective genetics don't matter, I still want to self identify as a dog sometime and take a sh1t on my neighbors lawn...or maybe leg hump his wife?


Identifying as a dog only allows you to take a dump on your own lawn. Pretty sure your neighbor would get pissed if your dog did it on his. I mean. Really.


----------



## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> samyeagar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since objective genetics don't matter, I still want to self identify as a dog sometime and take a sh1t on my neighbors lawn...or maybe leg hump his wife?
> 
> 
> 
> Identifying as a dog only allows you to take a dump on your own lawn. Pretty sure your neighbor would get pissed if your dog did it on his. I mean. Really.
Click to expand...

As long as I cleaned it up when I reidentified as a human, not much they could do, and if he tried to beat my ass when I was doing it, arrest him for cruelty to animals...and if I was doing it on my own front lawn, and the police tried to stop me, civil rights violation...


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## EllisRedding

Couple quick points:

Now, I don't know exactly what he/she was thinking when the whole separate male/female bathroom/lockerroom was created, but I have a sneaky suspicion the idea behind it had to do with physical classification and not how one felt ...

Additionally, going along with Elegirl and InTheory, I personally would not want my wife using a bathroom that any dude could stroll in to as well (I would either accompany her to the bathroom or would be watching the door like a hawk). Could you imagine going out to eat at a place that has a bar, or even a concert as InTheory mentioned, and having your wife/SO be in a bathroom with potentially drunk guys ... not a chance.


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> Since objective genetics don't matter, I still want to self identify as a dog sometime and take a sh1t on my neighbors lawn...or maybe leg hump his wife?


The problem is that genetics aren't as objective as you think.

WHO | Gender and Genetics

It isn't just a matter of XX and XY. There is quite a bit of variation.


----------



## Wolf1974

Lon said:


> *Is it even against the law for a man to use a woman's bathroom? schools, businesses and workplaces may have rules to deny one gender access to the other gender's restrooms, changerooms and shower rooms, and there are even OHSA requirements, but I actually wonder if they would withstand legal scrutiny against any superceding human rights laws...*
> 
> as for a dude showering in a public space, there are nudity laws that have withstood supreme court that make it unlawful to bare your genitals in public spaces. So whether or not its discriminatory, it's already illegal except in private spaces.
> 
> Anti-discrimination has absolutely nothing to do with privacy.
> 
> as for unisex bathrooms, it really depends entirely on so many factors such as the design of the room, stalls, context etc. Her safety in a unisex restroom really is no different than it would be in any place where people have to do necessary functions (a grocery store for instance).


i can't speak to Canadian law but here you protect the people not the room. For example a guy could us a woman's bathroom if no one was present inside. Heck when we had high school football games the visiting team often used the girls locker room to change and prep for the game...we were a poor farming community and had no other options than this or use the bus. But I assure you the cheerleaders were not present inside much to the heartbreak of the opposing team.

And I agree anti discrimination has nothing to do with privacy. You don't have the right to go where you please and do what you please just because you please. Thier are laws on books to protect such a thing. And anti discrimination law isn't about allowing them to go wherever it's about where they can't be denied going, so for example he is a male he could technically use the men's bathroom.


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## Forest

Then, we have the "sexually fluid".

"I'm generally female in the mornings, and all day Tuesday. Most afternoons I'm male, except Tuesday, of course. My sexuality is also known to go fluid when I see certain individuals be headed for the showers."


----------



## always_alone

Lila Perry was a gay male, and identifying as a heterosexual female. If she just wanted to peep, she would stay in the boy's locker room.

I'm sure that would make them feel uncomfortable. And so in the effort to assuage everyone's comfort, we're basically telling this person that they don't have the right to use a public restroom. At all.


----------



## Cletus

intheory said:


> I don't want to share bathrooms or locker rooms with physical men; no matter what they identify as.


Yeah, well, neither do I. But I don't get a choice.


----------



## Wolf1974

always_alone said:


> Lila Perry was a gay male, and identifying as a heterosexual female. If she just wanted to peep, she would stay in the boy's locker room.
> 
> I'm sure that would make them feel uncomfortable. And so in the effort to assuage everyone's comfort, we're basically telling this person that they don't have the right to use a public restroom. At all.


Gay males and lesbian females have been using the same sex locker rooms since the invention of such things. So nothing new there and they can legally continue to do so. They can not legally go in the opposite sex locker room and I doubt that will ever change. What is more likely to occur is men's locker rooms, women's locker rooms and unisex lockerooms.


----------



## Lon

ConanHub said:


> Lon. You want everyone to behave with, act and accept a physical male as a female in every aspect.
> 
> This denotes a deviant and flawed mind but I suspect you are a hypocrite.
> 
> How many of these "women" have you dated, pursued romantically and had sex with?
> 
> Did you marry one of these "women"?
> 
> If your answer is zero and no then you are a hypocrite requiring others to behave in a manner in which you are unwilling.
> 
> Before you say you aren't orientated that way you better examine your own statements.
> 
> This isn't an orientation issue.
> 
> You have stated that the man in question is a woman and deserves to be treated like a woman in a very real and personal way. It is a very private and personal experience for someone to disrobe in front of the opposite sex.
> 
> You want these young ladies to treat this very physical male exactly like a female in their showers.
> 
> How many pre-op transgender men have you had sex with, dated and or married?
> 
> You are the one saying "she" is a woman deserving of being treated like a physical woman by the young women in question.
> 
> How many pre-op transgender men have you done the same for?
> 
> You are deviant/flawed at best and a hypocrite at worst.
> 
> I was actually wasting thoughts on your position until it hit me what you are actually saying.
> 
> You could actually care less about the science.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure I even want to address your wild accusations of me in this comment. I am just trying to point out that the inclusion of transgender women into the realm of all women's privileges all stems from legally recognizing the ability for a person to have the courts allow them to change their gender tickmark on their ID to one that does not match their sex chromosomes.

To me, it makes perfect sense that if you have XY chromosome you are male and if you have XX chromosome you are female and based on that indicator it covers 99.5% of the population, for the intersex outliers or those with other ambiguous cross-gender traits that do not synch up with their sex chromosomes we can take them on a case-by-case basis.

However what I think, and what you think, isn't the crux of it, it's what people that believe they are transgender believe and it's about what privileges that affords them. The courts have upheld their belief to the point where they ARE allowed to define themselves as the gender that doesn't match their chromosomes, and most places whose laws are crafted around fundamental freedoms have explicitly stated "no discrimination based on gender".

I'm just trying to help this along down to the end of the path it's already well underway on.


----------



## Forest

minor t/j
Ele-
Was in a nearly new Target store today. Wife went into bathroom, so I asked her to count the stalls. I checked out the men's. 3 urinals, 3 stalls. 

Wife reported 9 stalls in the women's. I've heard recently of some cities requesting a min of 50% more women's fixtures than men's in building codes. Not sure if is mandatory or not. Looks life Target got the memo.

I remember when the BOK arena was built in Tulsa, they made a big deal that it would have twice as many women's fixtures as men's. Officially it has 37 restrooms. 12 male, 16 female, plus 9 "family" that are mostly women's. They are monitored, and women allowed in at anytime. Men are politely directed away, unless they actually have a small child with them. (my brother works extra jobs there). 

end t/j.


----------



## Lon

Forest said:


> I remember when the BOK arena was built in Tulsa, they made a big deal that it would have twice as many women's fixtures as men's. Officially it has 37 restrooms. 12 male, 16 female, plus 9 "family" that are mostly women's. They are monitored, and women allowed in at anytime. Men are politely directed away, unless they actually have a small child with them. (my brother works extra jobs there).
> 
> end t/j.


(continuing threadjack) most of the public swimming pools where I live have family changerooms available. My GF is always permitted to use it alone, and they'll even let me go in with her. But on several instances when it is just me or I'm with my son, I've been requested to not use them (even at times when there is no line ups). When my son was a toddler they allowed us to use it, but since he was around 4 or 5 they specifically instruct me to take him into the men's change rooms with me.


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## Woodchuck

Anon Pink said:


> If the other girls who have to use the locker room at the same time as the trans girl don't want her in there, all they have to do is not undress and stand still watching and waiting until she is finished changing. Peer scorn alone will solve this problem.
> 
> I think the trans girl is out of line considering the age group.
> 
> Whether she still have a penis or not has nothing to do with this. The penis in question responds to boys, not girls.
> 
> What's needed here is conversation between the trans girl and her peers. Put them in the same room and let them grow an understanding for each other.



Perhaps the girls would respond to the penis....What would 20-30 sexually aroused teenies do to the order and discipline of a well ordered highschool, not to mention the teen pregnancy rate....


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## Woodchuck

This is a perfect example of the tyranny of the minority....The trans genders of the U.S. represent .3% of the population....If .3% of the country had a fatal orphan disease, no one would give a damn....


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## EllisRedding

Running into some issues with gender neutral bathrooms ...

University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents | Daily Wire


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## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> Running into some issues with gender neutral bathrooms ...
> 
> University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents | Daily Wire


Are you in on e the tongue in cheek joke that this newspaper seems to adhere to?


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## EllisRedding

NextTimeAround said:


> Are you in on e the tongue in cheek joke that this newspaper seems to adhere to?


Yes, obviously some of that in this quote:



> The Daily Wire contacted the University dean and staff members and asked them how they could be unfeeling enough to force men to use men’s washrooms and women to use women’s washrooms.


However, not sure what that has to do with the incident?


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## Cletus

If peeping is going to be the reason to shut down restrooms, there won't be any female facilities left.


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## NextTimeAround

Cletus said:


> If peeping is going to be the reason to shut down restrooms, there won't be any female facilities left.


If I was never going to see a peeping Tom again, I could survive. But these days with phone video recorders, there's no way you can live that down.


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## ExiledBayStater

EllisRedding said:


> Running into some issues with gender neutral bathrooms ...
> 
> University of Toronto Dumps Transgender Bathrooms After Peeping Incidents | Daily Wire


A couple of years ago I was visiting somebody at the dorm in that story. There weren't supposed to be any overnight visitors. I guess if I were caught in the building after midnight I could have been deported. I was amazed that all of the dorm bathrooms (with showers) were coed. 

It was surreal to be brushing my teeth while an unknown young woman was doing the same at the next sink. At the time I hoped my presence didn't make her too uncomfortable. Looking back, it's possible that she had better threat assessment and recognized that I was minding my own business, or it just didn't cross her mind that I might be dangerous. Or maybe she was scared witless and didn't want to show it.


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