# Finding Common Ground



## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Background: 2nd marriage for both. Married 10 years. I am 50 and husband is 51. We have sex at least once per day on average for some time. Sometimes vanilla but trying to spice things up a bit. When dating he revealed:
-at least one time going to a swingers' club with his ex-wife. She was an alcoholic and per him, accompanied him because she could drink. Uncertain if they both had any encounters that night. I don't know how many times this took place.

-once when we were dating, we went to a private club but while we were in the company of people, we did not engage anyone else. 

His fantasy is to see me with another woman. I've been clear that I don't mind spicing things up with the just the two of us; however, I'm not comfortable with any third parties and view sex as the ultimate physical and emotional intimacy that two people can have. My views: I think that when married, if you are not both in agreement with an open marriage, then this intimacy should stay with two people. 


Now, he goes to fetlife.com to find local "kinky" events. He has shown me his profile which is very minimal with information and has shown me local events called "munches" where you go to a local restaurant for a meet and greet. No "play activities". Last night, he wanted to do something "kinky". We were going to see Magic Mike and he thought that would be cool because it would get me worked up for him. Then he told me to check other things so I found a play downtown that we both liked. En route to the play, he stopped at 2 different erotica stores to find an outfit. The first was really tough for me because it is a place where strippers get their outfits and unless you are a size 2 forget it. I couldn't find anything that fit me and I shared with him that this negatively impacted my self-esteem because of being conscious of my appearance (I'm not big but, let's face it, I'm not 20 and a size 2 either). 

We found another place, he picked an outfit and it fit and I figured after our play, the "kinky" thing we'd do would be for me to wear it for him. En route to the play, he drove past a building and casually thought it was a "dungeon" the signs did not indicate that it was. He dropped it. We went to dinner (he bought me two drinks) and enjoyed the play (he bought me another drink). We were driving home and I wasn't paying attention where he was going and he pulls back up at the supposed "dungeon" and the now dormant place is packed. He parks and we go in and I see some people that are dressed kinky. We stand in line and I ask him what type of activities are going on tonight. He didn't know. The bouncer had a stack of papers that were a "swinger's club release form". I started asking the bouncer what is going on here tonight and he said that this was a private club and a destination and told us to think about it before coming inside. Husband said let's go and I told him that I wanted to look this up because I knew he really wanted to check this out but I felt I deserved to know what was going on. It turns out that this was an event posted in fetlife and I asked for his log in to see what was going on (it involved flogging exhibitions, foot worship, BDSM etc. He said let's go. On the way home, nobody talked. 

I realized a few things:
-this was a planned "surprise attack". I now think that the drinks were meant to loosen me up and he was going to this event all along (buying me that outfit) etc. He figured I'd go along.

-this is disrespectful because I have made it clear of how I feel that this was something that I would have to gradually approach and feel comfortable about (meet and great vs swinger's flogging exhibition is a big leap). I think if you love someone, you would consider if this would be hurtful to them and your marriage.

-there is no right or wrong about his wanting this life. He's not wrong for wanting it and I'm not wrong for being uncomfortable. 

The question is: what are his priorities and is this a deal-breaker considering I work full-time, work for him, contribute greatly to our financial situation, remember all of his family's birthdays, host holiday dinners and try to be the best wife/companion EVER is all that I bring to the relationship not worth it?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Hey, I'm with you all the way. Nothing wrong with a kink, but it has to be mutually agreed on and the surprise attack is just skeevy. Very, very skeevy.

I think you make it really clear that he crossed your boundaries and that you will not tolerate this happening again. Period. And then back that up with action if he does it again. Now, I would try to address this separately from your last paragraph -- this has to do with respecting sexual boundaries, and trying to bring in remembering family birthdays is just going to muddy this issue. Remember, keep it simple.

Now, on a more trivial note, plenty of places to get fun outfits that are not size 2s. Do you have Cyndie's in your area? They have them, and also online go to Fredericks of Hollywood, wide size range available.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you for the suggestion  There are other issues (blended family) also at play; however, this one gets to me more.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Yeah, I've got the blended family stuff going on, too. God bless ya.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Found this link on somebody else's post...very interesting: Dark triad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Never heard of this and wonder if this is a factor???


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Yes,

This was very disrespectful.

I don't quite understand your question...but I wouldn't tolerate this behavior


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

@ India Ink I can see that my question was unclear. I guess I'm just dealing with what happened last night and I'm just wondering if this is going to end up being a deal breaker between us or is it possible for us to find a middle point where we both are comfortable. I've never been with someone or had friends who have had to experience this and feel awkward asking most of my friends what they think.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Have you spoken to him about this? 

You can't let this go, he will not stop trying to abush you next time it may be something that is more intrusive. My feelIng is that when your SO try's to trick their partner to do what they (the partner) clearly expressed no wish to do, that sex is no longer a mutually satisfying expression of love. 

I feel your husban sees sex as something he is entitled to and you are his to use for his. Your feelings mean nothing, your contribution to his life means nothing. The way i see it - your are no longer a person with feelings but an object to manipulate fir sex. 

What happened to love caring and protection. Your lack of reaction concerns me. This is a massive betrayal. The man you should feel most safe with, your friend, the man whoes needs yiu have met for 10 yrs treated you like a cheap ONS he wanted to use sexually. 

What would have happened if you did not realize what he was doing and asked no questions? He knew that this was not part of your value system - did he care that you may have suffered emotionally if you trusted him. 

How does a man treat a woman who he cherishes and appreciates. Get her drunk to maneuver her for sexual pleasure and be damned with her feelings? I don't think so. I think he is dangerous because he is out of control. At lest where you are concerned. You are useful, for the business, for sex and as a social secretary. 

I would get to a lawyer and find out what your legal rights are in terms of the business. Get copies of the financial and legal records, personal bank accounts, and expenditure. Don't let him know what you are doing. 

You can try to work this out with IC and MC but this is serious and you must treat it accordingly. Either he loves and respects you or he wants to use you sexually. One or the other. I think the problem may be a porn addiction. Porn can make some men objectify women. I have also noticed that women who are very adventurous with their partner face problems with escalating request for more sexual stimulation. 

They seem to reach a point where they become sated and they think their partner will do anything. I think you are way too open, he does not have your best interest in mind. His pleasure seems to be top in his list. I would be more self protective. He does not diserve you. 

If you decide to stay with him and work it out, cut way back on giving him every thing he wants. Also he seems unable to handle spice without getting carried away. So i think you shoukd cut back on the kink and spice until he shows that he appreciates, loves and puts your feelings above your usefulness. Also make cutting out porn a condition of working on the marriage. He needs to get treatment for porn addiction, if that is his problem. 

You seem to be way , too willing to do what he wants. Instead of appreciating your specialness, he takes you for granted. He seems to feel he is entitled to use you to get whatever he is arroused by at the moment. This may be partially your fault. You seem to have failed to put boundaries in place and to enforce consequences. You also seem to give too much. 

Cool things down and give only what you get. Also react appropriery to this, let him know you will not be treated this way and make sure their are consequences so he does not do it again. Talking does not work acting does. 

This is big, what he did boarders on abuse. It certainly should put you on your guard. He is untrustworthy, deceptive and manipulative. He does not sound like a man who deserves a wife like you. He shoukd know tgat he can lose you. He is far too sure you will not leave. 

Start from today to Put yourself first. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

wifenumber2 said:


> @ India Ink I can see that my question was unclear. I guess I'm just dealing with what happened last night and I'm just wondering if this is going to end up being a deal breaker between us or is it possible for us to find a middle point where we both are comfortable. I've never been with someone or had friends who have had to experience this and feel awkward asking most of my friends what they think.



I will tell you this:

If you end up doing something that you don't go into "willingly and joyfully"...if you end up feeling pressured to appease your husband, you will undoubtedly grow resentful.

To reach a middle ground you're going to have to have an answer to the question: "_what do I get out of doing this for him?_" ..._"what is he doing for me that makes this compromise worthwhile?_"

(at the end of the day, for better or worse, the vast majority of us operate sub-consciously on this rather childish principle of tit for tat...just how we're built) 

I also think that even before contemplating whether there could be some 'compromise'...you really need to reflect on this incident...I agree with Catherine...the was very, very unacceptable.

Do you feel like he has all the power and control in this relationship? Because that's what this sort of behavior would suggest to me.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

I think oftentimes that if I don't do this he'll go elsewhere. Stupid because if you think like this then you wonder if you even have a healthy relationship. I know that right now I'm going through LD partly due to change of life and I think partly because how can I compete with what you see in a porn movie. I think it would be more fun if I was made to feel that we were making love and anything kinky between us arose out of mutual love and passion. Right now I feel cheap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

*I think it would be more fun if I was made to feel that we were making love and anything kinky between us arose out of mutual love and passion. Right now I feel cheap.
Posted via Mobile Device*

Tell him this.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I am also all for loving kink when both partners are open, consenting, and enjoying it. First of all let me say that what he did demonstrated a colossal lack of respect for you and your relationship. This post is not meant approve of what he did, or to imply in any way that he shouldn't have asked for your consent. 

That said, there is a difference between kink and swinging. With respect to the latter I am having trouble reconciling what you say that you value with what you have told him and done with him. It seems like you may have sent him confusing messages. If I am reading your post correctly, you cherish monogamy yet you married a man who enjoys having multiple sexual partners. Can I ask why you kept that door open by telling him that you need to warm up to swinging, even though you value monogamy? You had already been to one club with him in the past before you chose to marry him. Have you lead him to believe that you might eventually warm up to it?

With respect to kink : even in the best possible light what he did was a really bad idea, but did you ask him what he was thinking? Was the club a prelude to kink at home, or was it a prelude to playing at the club? Again I don't condone the drinks, deception, or putting you on the spot. However, anonymously watching an exhibition of S&M is (IMHO) not swinging even if it's at a swingers club. Without knowing this particular venue, many S&M “demonstrations” don't involve sex. Given the mixed messages that you seem to be sending, this may have been anything from a warm up for the bedroom to his interpretation of dipping a toe into the swinging water. There would be no question if you had been more consistent in letting him know how much you value monogamy and private lovemaking. He absolutely should have talked to you first, without the drinks, but is he really only guilty of terrible judgment?



wifenumber2 said:


> I think oftentimes that if I don't do this he'll go elsewhere. Stupid because if you think like this then you wonder if you even have a healthy relationship. ... Right now I feel cheap.


Has your husband told you that monogamy is a deal breaker? If so, why do you expect him to accept a monogamous marriage? If not then the two of you need to learn to honestly communicate about your expectations for marriage. If kink in the bedroom sounds like fun for both of you, and you can both agree that watching a demonstration is a fun way to learn, then let him know that you deserved to be asked first.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

@pplwatching: We did recently have the conversation about my having gone once when we were dating and that why am I now not interested in going to a club. My answer: when we were dating, you once went to a concert involving a type of music you didn't necessarily like and you dressed up for it. Once in a while you do something different for the other person but that doesn't mean you want to do it all of the time. From what he told me about his first marriage, she had a drinking problem, stayed up late but he needed to get up early so they slept in separate beds for over 5 years. He told me that she didn't mind going to the swinger's club because it gave her the chance to drink and I could understand if you haven't slept together for over 5 years why you might consider going to a club. We sleep together and we have sex at least once/day...a different lifestyle.

I'll be honest with you, I would have considered going in to the club if only I knew what to expect. He had the benefit of knowing what this event was going to include because he had read up about it in fetlife.com. At the top of the stairs waiting to get in, I asked him just tell me what to expect and what it involves. I want to know before I go inside. I saw the stack of releases indicating this was a swinger's event. The bouncer heard me asking hubby wouldn't tell me anything . Hubby said: "Let's go", we went downstairs to a lobby area which was private and I said let me look this up on the internet to see what this is all about. At that time, I wasn't aware that he had researched this event on fetlife.com. I tried to google the club's name and no luck. I then looked at him and asked him if he found this event on fetlife and he said he did. I asked him for his log in and my phone's internet was slow. He got impatient and then we left. 

What I didn't post is that when we got home, I was feeling guilty because clearly this was his plan for the evening and I ruined it that I wore the outfit the we bought (I was thinking that we were going to go home after the play and have fun with the new outfit). He wasn't interested.

The next night, I wore it again and he did like it. I joked and said "someone wasn't interested last night." His response: "I thought you were mad and all we were doing was having fun."

I tried to reiterate that I was merely trying to figure out what this was before we paid to go in and he cut me off saying he didn't want to talk about it anymore. I didn't push it past that point because he wasn't going to be open to anything I would say. I usually can wait a few days until things settle down and I am pretty good and calmly and clearly stating my position.

I found out about the event on the ride home once my phone started working. 

My issues: he knew all along what he was doing, why not just show me the listing in fetlife while we were at home (he has shown me other events to give me a feel for this website). Why not ask me. After the play when we were driving, I was sending a text to his daughter so I wasn't looking at where we were going. The fact that he cased the place out before the play and then pursued going back afterwards to me meant that he wanted to go and that this was not spontaneous. Since he knew what this involved, why not tell me when asked? 

I have told him more than once in clear conversations that I didn't mind doing kinky stuff just between us; however, I do not think knowing myself that I could ever handle involving other people because I could see the potential for someone ending up getting hurt. I know that I had said that as recently as within the past few weeks. 

I have never pushed him to see if monogamy was a deal breaker because he has always said he just wanted to watch another woman with me. He said I could get him a male chastity belt so I never thought to force the issue.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

There's no question that he should have asked first, and that being deceptive and "black hat" about the whole thing was terrible. My wife and I have gone to sex workshops, where there was no explicit sexual activity but where topics were discussed and demonstrated. I'm sure my wife would have reacted the same way if I'd have pulled that stunt!

IMHO the music analogy doesn't work in this case. If my wife doesn't want to listen to geezer rock fogies, she's not going to feel betrayed and hurt if I go to a concert with a friend instead. She did go to concerts with me when we were dating. She still goes occasionally, but listening to a band that she doesn't like isn't a violation of her morals and character any more than me listening to opera (yes, I go if she asks).

I am ferociously monogamous in my own marriage, and not trying in any way to change your mind about monogamy. While it is normal and natural for tastes and feelings to change over time, I am concerned that you may have gotten married with different expectations. When you were dating and went to the club, if you didn't tell him "this is not for me" at the time he may not have realized that the door was closed. Regardless, if you are both on the same page now and he doesn't feel like he's been "bait and switched", it's all good. At some point it might be enlightening to ask how he feels.

With respect to kink, honestly you seem like a fun and open sexual partner. You didn't do anything wrong here and aren't wrong to feel hurt. If the whole point was to explore kink, he should have asked. IMHO you get extra points for how you've handled this whole situation.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Thank you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

This morning, while lying in bed, he told me "You're a good woman" (he will say this a few times per week. I told him in a soft voice that if I'm a good woman than please treat me like one. 

He then asked me what I meant and I calmly said that if I'm a good woman to you then please treat me with respect. I was asked to elaborate as to when I haven't. I said twice this past week: 1) what went down Saturday night at that club and 2) the way you talk to me in front of other people (we were talking about remodeling our house with our son-in-law who is a carpenter. When I asked to have my own closet in the bedroom, Hubby (H) said when you clean up all of your clutter then we'll look at building a closet. I was hurt. I said: When you can come up with 48 hour days this can happen--(I work full-time and for him).

See my other post about wanting to be treated like his kids for background but basically I said there are some other things that made me feel disrespected; however, they go back 5 years (we discussed but never resolved in the past). He asked me what examples so I said 1) your daughter stole my wedding ring but you never made her apologize. 2) we needed a couch because our old one was shot, you took me shopping but when we found one you told me that we needed to be conservative with $ because we were trying to get a bldg loan yet 3 days later you book a cruise for that same daughter and your step daughter from your first marriage without a word to me. Your reason: you felt that your daughter needed her self-esteem boosted. 3) I asked you not to allow your son and his girlfriend (college aged) not to sleep together in our house during Summer break. What he does while at school is fine to me but in the house, I'm not trying to raise my kids that way. You said nothing and allowed it to happen. 4) You spent over $20K on a house for your daughter while having to borrow over $14K from me to pay past-due business taxes and inject capital because you were bouncing checks. This was money you didn't have and 5) last week I said my brake light was on in my car and the oil change was due (he owns a repair shop). He didn't say anything and didn't look up to even acknowledge me yet over the past two weeks I've heard him ask his step-daughter to give him a list of things that need to be done for his car. I asked him how would you think that would make me feel.

He denied planning the club thing Saturday night. States he was winging it and didn't think he found the place. I pushed back and said you had to have read something about it to seek it out and all I wanted to know was what to expect inside (was this a social event, would the expectation be that there was a sexual free-for all since it said swinger's club on the release). He said he would sell off his favorite car at rock-bottom price to pay me off, said he would keep his mouth shut and think about what he would say and that his step-daughter was going on a road trip and he always would check out a car for me if I was doing that and that I should have trusted him to know that the oil change could go for another 3000 miles and even though the brake light was on, unless they were scrubbing/grabbing, it wasn't urgent. I told him if he communicated that to me when I first asked, I would have not thought twice about it. I told him that it is how he acts with me versus his kids that when you look through my eyes, how you could see how I feel. 

The only thing with him that was a deal breaker was how he is with his kids. I told him that he should be with his kids and all just treat me as good as he does them.


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm sorry but all signs point to your husband being a jerk. The stuff with his kids will never change and you're subsidizing it. 

The stuff with the club is just disturbing. 

I don't know what the answer is because if you leave you're just going to uproot the kids all over again. That's a hard situation. Good luck.


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I think it was a good idea to have a talk like that. The way that he treats you day to day was probably the most important thing to focus on. Bringing up the things from the past probably made him miss the point entirely. The way that he responded to those things would indicate that he didn't really get the message about day to day respect.

I would personally be a little bit leery of letting him sell off his favorite car to pay you back. You do deserve to be paid back, but that doesn't seem to be the point that you were trying to make. The offer is a sign that what he took away from that part of your conversation is that you're upset about money. While that may be true, your point was that you want to be treated like a first class part of the marriage. If he feels that selling his car to repay you is the right thing to do, assuming that he doesn't need it for basic transportation, that's one thing. If he feels like he needs to sell because you're mad, that will come back to bite you in the marriage.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

When we have discussions his response to something seems extreme like cutting your arm off to treat a hangnail. We own about 10 cars as he is in the repair bus but I told him not to sell this one because he likes it, it's unique and it's worth more than the offer
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

He calked me at work an hour later to offer me $1200 so I can fly next week to see my daughter in England (study abroad)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

I may go but pay with my own $.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

wifenumber2 said:


> He calked me at work an hour later to offer me $1200 so I can fly next week to see my daughter in England (study abroad)


Nice typo  I'd "caulk" my wife at work if I could  

The offer doesn't address the issue of respect, but it does make sense given that the conversation included an enumeration of past financial issues where you came second. 

From what you've described, he is repeating a financial pattern of using money to try and fix relationship problems. On top of not addressing the real problem at hand and given what you've written it doesn't seem like he can really afford to spend his money this way. 

My suggestion is that next time you have a chat about what it means to be treated with respect, you try to leave out discussions about how he spends his money. Not paying you back legitimate, because that is about respect, but even that can turn the conversation into one about money instead of respect.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Agreed. I put the $ issue in the conversation to show that it was getting out of control. If he could really afford to spend the $20K that was one thing. But I'm his bookkeeper and so I see the impact. I wanted to show him it's okay to love the kids but at some point you have to say "I'd love to but can't afford it" the business owes me the $14K because I had to charge $6700 on my credit card to stop the bleed on his biz property tax lien, $1500 and $3000 to inject cash to prevent bounced checks and $2800 to purchase equipment. Soo I feel concerned personally and professionally as our house (in my name) is collateral for the business loans. I have even more skin in the game as I allowed myself to co-sign these loans.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

Seriously...with all said, I would rather have a loving and respectful relationship without being bought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't think he's "buying" you. I think he just doesn't understand how to manage his money, or how to address the issues that you brought up. His offer is probably his way of showing you that he wants to do something nice for you in light of what you talked about. He just doesn't understand that he can do that without money.

You have a number of issues between money and respect. IMHO your best approach is to try to find a way to address them separately.


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

As a man, do you feel he resents me because I can help out at times financially? He tells me he wants his acct reconciled daily to avoid surprises. I was raised by Deoression Era parents who were more than able to provide but as I put it ensured our needs were met and evaluated our "wants" carefully.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pplwatching (Jun 15, 2012)

wifenumber2 said:


> As a man, do you feel he resents me because I can help out at times financially? He tells me he wants his acct reconciled daily to avoid surprises. I was raised by Deoression Era parents who were more than able to provide but as I put it ensured our needs were met and evaluated our "wants" carefully.


It's very difficult to go from what I think to what he thinks. Some men do, while others don't. He's the only one who can tell you if he resents it. Times are tough all over. He may be a person who thinks that he can put off some things until the economy turns around without realizing that he's creating trouble.

You can't change the way that he treats his kids. The best you can hope for is to help him learn how to manage his finances, and even then only if he wants to learn. 

Your finances are intertwined, though.


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