# Curious...



## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

We all know that infidelity is rampant. We have seen lives and families destroyed.
I am curious what y’all think. 
What percentage of marriages have had infidelity and the BS never found out?
Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I think you need to define exactly what you consider cheating. 
Is the engaged woman who regularly goes out with her friends and spends the night flirting, kissing and dancing provocatively with other men cheating, even if she doesn’t actually have sex with them. Is this any better/worse than a man who is completely faithful getting a lap dance on his bachelor party. 
Is it still cheating if it doesn’t include sex?
Or is cheating doing something of a sexual nature that you wouldn’t want your partner to know about?
It’s too easy to plead innocence/ignorance of what most people would consider a boundary or as they say “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission”.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> I think you need to define exactly what you consider cheating.
> Is the engaged woman who regularly goes out with her friends and spends the night flirting, kissing and dancing provocatively with other men cheating, even if she doesn’t actually have sex with them. Is this any better/worse than a man who is completely faithful getting a lap dance on his bachelor party.
> Is it still cheating if it doesn’t include sex?
> Or is cheating doing something of a sexual nature that you wouldn’t want your partner to know about?
> It’s too easy to plead innocence/ignorance of what most people would consider a boundary or as they say “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission”.


Cheating is always what each person thinks it is.
For most people the bar is '_personally_' set, rather high.

What you excuse in other people, likely would not be excused when you are faced with that notion of yourself being cheated on.

What "IS" is, is for cheaters themselves to toy with.

That said, there are a lot of grey areas, unfortunately (fortunately?) with most peoples, their _grey matter _spots the BS right away.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Andy1001 said:


> I think you need to define exactly what you consider cheating.
> Is the engaged woman who regularly goes out with her friends and spends the night flirting, kissing and dancing provocatively with other men cheating, even if she doesn’t actually have sex with them. Is this any better/worse than a man who is completely faithful getting a lap dance on his bachelor party.
> Is it still cheating if it doesn’t include sex?
> Or is cheating doing something of a sexual nature that you wouldn’t want your partner to know about?
> It’s too easy to plead innocence/ignorance of what most people would consider a boundary or as they say “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission”.


I’m a silver rule kinda girl. Don’t do to others what you don’t want done to you.


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## OddOne (Sep 27, 2018)

Torninhalf said:


> Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


Probably the latter. 

Contracting an STD; unexpected pregnancy that the BH knows is unlikely if not impossible to be because of him; a witness not able or willing to keep secret that someone's spouse did something inappropriate at a bar, etc., are things which I would assume as typical reasons for ONS to be caught. 

Long term affairs or multiple encounters with different people are probably caught when a cheater has failed to cover his or her tracks or the AP(s) have decided to turn against them. 

In either case, much depends on how much actual guilt the cheater has as well as his or her ability to compartmentalize. A lot also depends on how complacent and observant the betrayed is.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

OddOne said:


> Probably the latter.
> 
> Contracting an STD; unexpected pregnancy that the BH knows is unlikely if not impossible to be because of him; a witness not able or willing to keep secret that someone's spouse did something inappropriate at a bar, etc., are things which I would assume as typical reasons for ONS to be caught.
> 
> ...


I am sure there are tons of variables that come into play. I know in my case if my STBXH had kept his affair short, say a month or 2 I wouldn’t have known. Thinking back, which I loath doing, I wonder if he had ever done it before. I wonder how many people just have no clue they were cheated on.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I am sure there are tons of variables that come into play. I know in my case if my STBXH had kept his affair short, say a month or 2 I wouldn’t have known. Thinking back, which I loath doing, I wonder if he had ever done it before. I wonder how many people just have no clue they were cheated on.


I wonder the same thing all the time. How could you ever really know? It’s hard to fathom feeling worse about being cheated on, but knowing it happened before? Yeah that would probably get it done. All the what if’s. I hate them.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> I think you need to define exactly what you consider cheating.
> Is the engaged woman who regularly goes out with her friends and spends the night flirting, kissing and dancing provocatively with other men cheating, even if she doesn’t actually have sex with them. Is this any better/worse than a man who is completely faithful getting a lap dance on his bachelor party.
> Is it still cheating if it doesn’t include sex?
> Or is cheating doing something of a sexual nature that you wouldn’t want your partner to know about?
> It’s too easy to plead innocence/ignorance of what most people would consider a boundary or as they say “it’s easier to ask forgiveness than permission”.


I’d say if it’s something you know your significant other wouldn’t be ok with you doing with another person, it’s cheating. And if you further need to keep it a secret. It’s cheating.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I wonder the same thing all the time. How could you ever really know? It’s hard to fathom feeling worse about being cheated on, but knowing it happened before? Yeah that would probably get it done. All the what if’s. I hate them.


We were married almost 30 years when he cheated. 3 decades when I never snooped. Didn’t question him coming home late or nights out. Did it happen then too? What about...what about...maybe then...It’s maddening.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think it’s likely that most cheaters get away with it. Looking back over the decades, I can see a lot of red flags that I dismissed at the time.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> We were married almost 30 years when he cheated. 3 decades when I never snooped. Didn’t question him coming home late or nights out. Did it happen then too? What about...what about...maybe then...It’s maddening.


Same! I sure now question a LOT of things over the years that at the time I thought “he would never”. Now I think... hmmm was he??? It’s like every so often I think of something else and have to reexamine the history of my life and put it all into question. I told him that too, “you’ve destroyed my memories of our entire relationship.” Was I actually ever happy? Or was it a lie based on a false husband? Was he actually being a good husband in those first 8 years? Or was he hiding things?

It is enough to make you bat **** crazy.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> I think it’s likely that most cheaters get away with it. Looking back over the decades, I can see a lot of red flags that I dismissed at the time.


So my assessment that it’s not many marriages are not unscathed by infidelity, just that the BS didn’t know. We all read about the people who found out...not the ones that are blissfully unaware.
When I was young I worked for a man who was cheating on his wife with a 19 year old clerk. He was 36. Years later I ran into them and the look of horror on his face indicated he knew I knew but she still did not. I think this happens way more than we would like to believe.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Same! I sure now question a LOT of things over the years that at the time I thought “he would never”. Now I think... hmmm was he??? It’s like every so often I think of something else and have to reexamine the history of my life and put it all into question. I told him that too, “you’ve destroyed my memories of our entire relationship.” Was I actually ever happy? Or was it a lie based on a false husband? Was he actually being a good husband in those first 8 years? Or was he hiding things?
> 
> It is enough to make you bat **** crazy.


It’s funny. Well not Haha funny but I said this exactly the other day to my daughter. I no longer have a clue what was real. Who did I even love?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> So my assessment that it’s not many marriages are not unscathed by infidelity, just that the BS didn’t know. We all read about the people who found out...not the ones that are blissfully unaware.
> When I was young I worked for a man who was cheating on his wife with a 19 year old clerk. He was 36. Years later I ran into them and the look of horror on his face indicated he knew I knew but she still did not. I think this happens way more than we would like to believe.


And the ones where there is an indication of cheating but the BS refuses to believe it and believes the lies and gaslighting so they just act like it never happened. I have a girlfriend in this situation right now. So yeah. Probably far more people do not get caught, or admit it than those that do.

Depressing.


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## TurnedTurtle (May 15, 2019)

On the definition of cheating, I think the critical thing is not necessarily what exactly the wayward spouse did or did not do with the other person (or people), but the lying, sneaking around, covering up, gas lighting... _that_ is the crux of betrayal.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> So my assessment that it’s not many marriages are not unscathed by infidelity, just that the BS didn’t know. We all read about the people who found out...not the ones that are blissfully unaware.
> When I was young I worked for a man who was cheating on his wife with a 19 year old clerk. He was 36. Years later I ran into them and the look of horror on his face indicated he knew I knew but she still did not. I think this happens way more than we would like to believe.


Yes, I think that’s correct. My guess is that a lot of infidelity is never discovered. That’s easily done, unfortunately.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> And the ones where there is an indication of cheating but the BS refuses to believe it and believes the lies and gaslighting so they just act like it never happened. I have a girlfriend in this situation right now. So yeah. Probably far more people do not get caught, or admit it than those that do.
> 
> Depressing.


Indeed. For me personally it has made me completely reject the idea of ever being in a relationship again.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

TurnedTurtle said:


> On the definition of cheating, I think the critical thing is not necessarily what exactly the wayward spouse did or did not do with the other person (or people), but the lying, sneaking around, covering up, gas lighting... _that_ is the crux of betrayal.


Exactly. The physical act isn’t as harmful as the lying.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Openminded said:


> Yes, I think that’s correct. My guess is that a lot of infidelity is never discovered. That’s easily done, unfortunately.


Makes you wonder how many marriage if the truth was out would make the ranks of faithful.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Indeed. For me personally it has made me completely reject the idea of ever being in a relationship again.


I’m with you sister. As jaded as that makes me sound, I don’t need that, my kids don’t need it. I think I’ll settle into a peaceful and wonderful relationship with myself and a great group of friends.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I’m with you sister. As jaded as that makes me sound, I don’t need that, my kids don’t need it. I think I’ll settle into a peaceful and wonderful relationship with myself and a great group of friends.


I’ve said before here...I’m retired. Did my 30 years. Want my watch and my pension. If I want physical interaction it will be on my terms. Netflix, dinner and a romp. Do I need to show you the door? 😂


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I’ve said before here...I’m retired. Did my 30 years. Want my watch and my pension. If I want physical interaction it will be on my terms. Netflix, dinner and a romp. Do I need to show you the door? 😂


Self imposed curfew. Sounds pretty perfect to me! 
I only made it 17, I guess I don’t get my watch. Keeping a lookout for my consolation prize though.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Self imposed curfew. Sounds pretty perfect to me!
> I only made it 17, I guess I don’t get my watch. Keeping a lookout for my consolation prize though.


Your prize is freedom from that nonsense.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

I am an old romantic who likes to think that there are actually a lot of marriages out there, the majority in fact, where there has been no cheating. This forum is generally only going to show the bad side where cheaters abound.

Within my personal set of friends or colleagues, I know of very few that cheated (by whatever definition you choose) but that does not make news.

I also see a lot of people on here who enter into second marriages who don’t cheat.

I am very sorry that you feel the way about future relationships Torn and QuietRiot because I think you would be a good partner. I understand it but you must see betrayed spouses on here who would make good, faithful partners. There is nothing like the thrill of love and romance just don’t give up on it.

In some ways, you are both a walking contradiction of your views because I am pretty damned sure you wouldn’t cheat, all you need to do is find someone who shares those values.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Makes you wonder how many marriage if the truth was out would make the ranks of faithful.


Not as many as is often thought (IMO).


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> We all know that infidelity is rampant. We have seen lives and families destroyed.
> I am curious what y’all think.
> What percentage of marriages have had infidelity and the BS never found out?
> Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


I think most get away with it and it's mainly because the spouse decides to see no evil because they're not wanting to leave no matter what. Blinders on. They may know on some level but choose not to think about it. 

I think on this forum, some posts I read about guys getting cheated on, I suspect are paranoid and/or insecure people or people who are projecting because they think women would take any opportunity to cheat if they couldn't get caught, because that's what they would do if the opportunity arose and they wouldn't likely get caught. I think men think it's on women's mind a lot because it's on THEIR minds a lot, sex, that is. 

Of course, I grew up with one of those for a father. I used his razor to shave my legs as a young teen, and neither me nor mom bothered to tell him, and he was totally convinced my mom was cheating. She didn't have a cheating bone in her body. Sex was on his mind a lot and I'm certain he cheated.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Harold Demure said:


> I am an old romantic who likes to think that there are actually a lot of marriages out there, the majority in fact, where there has been no cheating. This forum is generally only going to show the bad side where cheaters abound.
> 
> Within my personal set of friends or colleagues, I know of very few that cheated (by whatever definition you choose) but that does not make news.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. I am jaded. No doubt. I just wonder. We see all the people that got caught...what about all the ones that didn’t. I wouldn’t cheat. Didn’t help me the first time.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Harold Demure said:


> I am an old romantic who likes to think that there are actually a lot of marriages out there, the majority in fact, where there has been no cheating. This forum is generally only going to show the bad side where cheaters abound.
> 
> Within my personal set of friends or colleagues, I know of very few that cheated (by whatever definition you choose) but that does not make news.
> 
> ...


I mean... I don’t want to sound like a pessimistic person. But I weigh my options and find that being single and creating fulfilling non-romantic relationships just sounds way more serene and wonderful than dating and doing that whole song and dance, trying to “blend families” trying to “work” on a marriage. Why should life have to be such hard work?

If for some reason the good Lord decides I need a soul mate and drops him in my lap, then I won’t argue. But I just don’t see myself pursuing a relationship again. Maybe when my kids graduate high school and leave me I’ll be bored enough to chase something.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I mean... I don’t want to sound like a pessimistic person. But I weigh my options and find that being single and creating fulfilling non-romantic relationships just sounds way more serene and wonderful than dating and doing that whole song and dance, trying to “blend families” trying to “work” on a marriage. Why should life have to be such hard work?
> 
> If for some reason the good Lord decides I need a soul mate and drops him in my lap, then I won’t argue. But I just don’t see myself pursuing a relationship again. Maybe when my kids graduate high school and leave me I’ll be bored enough to chase something.


Thor could drop Adonis in my lap and I’m still showing him the door. 😂


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Thor could drop Adonis in my lap and I’m still showing him the door. 😂


Im sure you won’t kick him out with haste since he’s in your lap already. 😉


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Im sure you won’t kick him out with haste since he’s in your lap already. 😉


He will leave smiling but he will leave. 😂


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Thor could drop Adonis in my lap and I’m still showing him the door. 😂


Because you'll have Thor...??


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Because you'll have Thor...??


😂


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> 😂


Lolol!!!!


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

This thread has taken an unhealthy turn for men. Time to quit because it’s getting a bit scary 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Harold Demure said:


> This thread has taken an unhealthy turn for men. Time to quit because it’s getting a bit scary 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


I’m scary? Little old me? 😂 
I like men. I just don’t trust humans. 😉


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Thank you for that. I am jaded. No doubt. I just wonder. We see all the people that got caught...what about all the ones that didn’t. I wouldn’t cheat. Didn’t help me the first time.


Hey, if you're not jaded, you haven't been paying attention to life...


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Hey, if you're not jaded, you haven't been paying attention to life...


Amen to that!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

When I hear of statistics that say 40% of married people cheat or maybe 50% cheat, I think that's very sad, but then I think how many people never cheat and it's an awful lot.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Indeed. For me personally it has made me completely reject the idea of ever being in a relationship again.


A lot say that initially but don't let one man put you off. There are still good guys out there.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> A lot say that initially but don't let one man put you off. There are still good guys out there.


I’m sure there are. I just have zero interest in investing myself in another relationship. I’m comfortable being alone. I dont particularly like humans anymore. 😂


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m sure there are. I just have zero interest in investing myself in another relationship. I’m comfortable being alone. I dont particularly like humans anymore. 😂


It took me 4 years before I was ready to even think of another man.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> It took me 4 years before I was ready to even think of another man.


I think I may have been married a bit longer than you. If I get involved with another man it won’t be for anything more than what I have already stated. 😂


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I think a lot of people are being cheated on and don't know it.

I rememeber when I used to hit the clubs all the time in my 20's and there were these 2 cute girls there some weekends. I always chatted them up and one of them gave me her number so we could date. When she did, she told me not to call at certain times cuz her husband would be around. A few years later, I took a job as a corrections officer and when we graduated academy everyone brought their family. A buddy of mine introduced me to his wife and it was the club girl. I pretended I didn't know her but we both recognized each other. I seriously doubt i was the only other guy since she was at the club all the time.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> I think a lot of people are being cheated on and don't know it.
> 
> I rememeber when I used to hit the clubs all the time in my 20's and there were these 2 cute girls there some weekends. I always chatted them up and one of them gave me her number so we could date. When she did, she told me not to call at certain times cuz her husband would be around. A few years later, I took a job as a corrections officer and when we graduated academy everyone brought their family. A buddy of mine introduced me to his wife and it was the club girl. I pretended I didn't know her but we both recognized each other. I seriously doubt i was the only other guy since she was at the club all the time.


Did you end up dating her?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Torninhalf said:


> We were married almost 30 years when he cheated. 3 decades when I never snooped. Didn’t question him coming home late or nights out. Did it happen then too? What about...what about...maybe then...It’s maddening.


Not remembering how long ago you divorced... are you in a comfortable-enough place that you could ask you ex that question and get an honest answer? Presumably if he's ex-enough being honest might be an expected response?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Casual Observer said:


> Not remembering how long ago you divorced... are you in a comfortable-enough place that you could ask you ex that question and get an honest answer? Presumably if he's ex-enough being honest might be an expected response?


I’m not divorced yet and no. He will never tell the truth. It’s not in his nature.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> Did you end up dating her?


No. Once she said she was married I kinda lost interest. I vaguely remember us maybe dancing or making out at the club though. I used to drink a lot back in those days.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m not divorced yet and no. He will never tell the truth. It’s not in his nature.


No, they don’t tell the truth. It doesn’t benefit them to do that so they go to their grave denying anything their spouse can’t prove and even then they try to spin it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m not divorced yet and no. He will never tell the truth. It’s not in his nature.


This is EXACTLY how MY STBX is...and I don't know about you, but his inability to be honest KILLED the respect I had for him...which then erased the love I felt for him.

But you said something in another thread I am SO curious to ask you about...can I thread jack HERE and ask you?? Lol!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I think I may have been married a bit longer than you. If I get involved with another man it won’t be for anything more than what I have already stated. 😂


I was married for 25 years. Mind you I did get married young so was still only in my mid 40's when I was single again. I always wanted to marry again but with my strict criteria I wasn't sure I would meet anyone who lived up to it. Wasn't going to compromise or settle for second best.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

That raises an interesting question Diana.

Did people who got married for a 2nd time have far stricter criteria for their relationship and greater demand/expectations of their new partner?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Harold Demure said:


> That raises an interesting question Diana.
> 
> Did people who got married for a 2nd time have far stricter criteria for their relationship and greater demand/expectations of their new partner?


For me certainly Harold. Demand maybe isn't the right word, but in the 25-30 years since I had got married the first time I had changed so much and the world had changed a lot.
I actually wrote a full page list if what I wanted in a future husband and got them all.
They weren't what I would call shallow things like must earn more than whatever,
must have own house, must be over 6ft etc. But about faith(the most important for me), character, honesty, patience, strong moral values etc.
By that list I probably excluded 99.5% of available men in the UK, but I wasn't going to settle.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> This is EXACTLY how MY STBX is...and I don't know about you, but his inability to be honest KILLED the respect I had for him...which then erased the love I felt for him.
> 
> But you said something in another thread I am SO curious to ask you about...can I thread jack HERE and ask you?? Lol!


Of course. 😁


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> We were married almost 30 years when he cheated. 3 decades when I never snooped. Didn’t question him coming home late or nights out. Did it happen then too? What about...what about...maybe then...It’s maddening.


The timing of the cheating seems, at first, very important.
Later, it becomes more, the temerity, the nerve.

When, is only the time (you now know) it happened.

Cheating happening after thirty years and just this once, seems a bad bet.

The reason was there in his mind, since when?

Likely, from your first doubt, your first inkling.
After a long series of fights.

After thirty years of marriage, with his life now in his ~fifties, the body is less demanding of sexual release.
As, is the mind.

The need is not as strong.
Therefore, why now, and why after so many years of not-cheating.

He is past the mid life crisis, but not past the later life crisis. That ends when he flat gives up, due to age.

You do not become a cheater, at say, ~fifty five years of age; rather you got caught at this age.

Many have it in their mind that cheating is tolerable OK as long as you do not get caught.

If he got caught by happenstance, this may be have been his first attempt and success.
If he got caught by being careless, than getting away with it for so long made him overconfident.

I say he likely started cheating at around 7 years into your marriage. I say this, statistically.

Long term cheating can be hit and miss, hit and be gone. 
All, short term cheating.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Of course. 😁


Ok, yay!!!

You said, your STBX once asked you to have sex with another man because it was a fantasy of his, and you said that hurt MORE than his infidelity? Is that right? You felt him wanting multiple partners was more of a betrayal than him sneaking and sleeping around?

I'm NOT being snarky (I think I need to add that in my signature!), I'm really curious if that's how you felt for real, because I think I would be fine if my partner asked me for something like that - as long as I could say NO - but I wouldn't see it as a betrayal. My STBX hid everything from me (he was heavily into porn, no cheating), and it would have been a relief for me to hear the truth about what his fantasies were and what he really wanted. So I'm trying to understand how it could affect someone the way you describe!


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Ok, yay!!!
> 
> You said, your STBX once asked you to have sex with another man because it was a fantasy of his, and you said that hurt MORE than his infidelity? Is that right? You felt him wanting multiple partners was more of a betrayal than him sneaking and sleeping around?
> 
> I'm NOT being snarky (I think I need to add that in my signature!), I'm really curious if that's how you felt for real, because I think I would be fine if my partner asked me for something like that - as long as I could say NO - but I wouldn't see it as a betrayal. My STBX hid everything from me (he was heavily into porn, no cheating), and it would have been a relief for me to hear the truth about what his fantasies were and what he really wanted. So I'm trying to understand how it could affect someone the way you describe!


I was more hurt by him wanting to share me. I no longer felt special. I was an object not a human.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> I was more hurt by him wanting to share me. I no longer felt special. I was an object not a human.


More hurt by him wanting to share you than by him sharing himself, then...?

And I see what you mean about being an object...and maybe I just felt like that with my STBX for SO long that I don't recognize that as a bad thing (which makes me feel sad for me...)...

You have said that you had frequent and satisfying sex with him in your marriage...did it feel connected and intimate too?
(and if I'm getting too personal, just tell me to stop!)


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> More hurt by him wanting to share you than by him sharing himself, then...?
> 
> And I see what you mean about being an object...and maybe I just felt like that with my STBX for SO long that I don't recognize that as a bad thing (which makes me feel sad for me...)...
> 
> ...


Yes it did. He was my first and only.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Yes it did. He was my first and only.




Were you his first?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Were you his first?


Yes.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Yes.


How terrible that he didn't value that the way you did...


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> How terrible that he didn't value that the way you did...


It is what it is...I wish I could change it but I can’t.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> It is what it is...I wish I could change it but I can’t.


You are still in the Grief phase...and it sucks. 🤗


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I was more hurt by him wanting to share me. I no longer felt special. I was an object not a human.


Bus wasn’t he saying it like “oh go screw a guy and then we will be even for what I did” type thing? That would seem to me that he’s saying “no big deal”
What he did but then a double screw you because it’s also “I don’t care about you enough to be hurt about it.” And “let’s move on you’re annoying me.” All in one.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

QuietRiot said:


> Bus wasn’t he saying it like “oh go screw a guy and then we will be even for what I did” type thing? That would seem to me that he’s saying “no big deal”
> What he did but then a double screw you because it’s also “I don’t care about you enough to be hurt about it.” And “let’s move on you’re annoying me.” All in one.


Wait...is THAT what he said...???


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Wait...is THAT what he said...???


No but I thought that was the premise of his “go sleep with another guy.” He just wanted to even the playing field so they could move on. That was my understanding I could be wrong!


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> No but I thought that was the premise of his “go sleep with another guy.” He just wanted to even the playing field so they could move on. That was my understanding I could be wrong!


It was a combination. He wanted to even the scales for sure. He was also hoping I would like it enough to “swing”.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Hey I'm a cheat. Just when my wife is not looking... I take an extra sip from the bottle of wine during dinner so my glass of wine always looks to the same fill.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> Hey I'm a cheat. Just when my wife is not looking... I take an extra sip from the bottle of wine during dinner so my glass of wine always looks to the same fill.


😂 You single? 😂


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> It was a combination. He wanted to even the scales for sure. He was also hoping I would like it enough to “swing”.


What an absolute turd. He really thought he could redefine the terms of a 30 year marriage??!

I know you don't want to have another relationship, but since you are happy being alone, after your divorce is final...watch out! Contentment and self-confidence are very attractive to the opposite sex.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

W


Torninhalf said:


> 😂 You single? 😂


sometimes when my wife is mad at me I think that I could consider myself single as far as she's concerned, but it only last a few minutes😥.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Twodecades said:


> What an absolute turd. He really thought he could redefine the terms of a 30 year marriage??!
> 
> I know you don't want to have another relationship, but since you are happy being alone, after your divorce is final...watch out! Contentment and self-confidence are very attractive to the opposite sex.


I know it is hard for people to believe but I don’t. I gave up my dreams and my life to my husband and my family. I’m half the person I could have been. I’m happy mostly being alone now. I can’t imagine trying to integrate another human in my life.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> We all know that infidelity is rampant. We have seen lives and families destroyed.
> I am curious what y’all think.
> What percentage of marriages have had infidelity and the BS never found out?
> Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


Well I assume probably 75% of all divorce is because of infidelity even if it is unspoken, I believe last I checked half of all marriages end in divorce. I think you pretty much have a 50-50 shot. That being said if you learn some of the red flags you can greatly improve your chances. I think your best chance of protecting yourself is in who you pick. I think about 75% of the outcome of your marriage is at the picking step. Most adults don't change so you really need to marry an emotionally healthy one.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I know it is hard for people to believe but I don’t. I gave up my dreams and my life to my husband and my family.* I’m half the person I could have been.* I’m happy mostly being alone now. I can’t imagine trying to integrate another human in my life.


No you are not. You are what you are, and you are ALL YOU. I don't think that there's too many people that at one time or another thought that they could have been better, more; even the super famous celebrities go through that. We are all humans with highs and lows throughout our life. The important thing is to accept ourselves as we are, and that whatever perceived shortcomings in our life does not define us in the end. 

Hey, if your neighbor the guy you say is interested in you is younger; doesn't that tell you something about yourself? doesn't it tell you that you are still a whole woman that still gets younger guys hot for you? I'm pretty sure he sees you a whole person, regardless of how you're perceiving yourself at this moment, because it is at this moment, and this moment will pass and eventually you'll come out thinking of this moment just as a phase you went through in your past.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> No you are not. You are what you are, and you are ALL YOU. I don't think that there's too many people that at one time or another thought that they could have been better, more; even the super famous celebrities go through that. We are all humans with highs and lows throughout our life. The important thing is to accept ourselves as we are, and that whatever perceived shortcomings in our life does not define us in the end.
> 
> Hey, if your neighbor the guy you say is interested in you is younger; doesn't that tell you something about yourself? doesn't it tell you that you are still a whole woman that still gets younger guys hot for you? I'm pretty sure he sees you a whole person, regardless of how you're perceiving yourself at this moment, because it is at this moment, and this moment will pass and eventually you'll come out thinking of this moment just as a phase you went through in your past.


I think more in the lines of the dreams and career I gave up. I’m fairly intelligent. I gave up my dreams to stay at home and raise kids. I don’t regret it cause they are wonderful but I wonder who I would have been had I not. I kinda got caught in that vacuum. The neighbor wants me cause I don’t look my age. I’m fit and possibly have good genetics. 😂


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

The more I read on TAM, the more I realise some of life has passed me by. 😆 

Nothing wrong with first and only!


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> I think more in the lines of the dreams and career I gave up. I’m fairly intelligent. I gave up my dreams to stay at home and raise kids. I don’t regret it cause they are wonderful but I wonder who I would have been had I not. I kinda got caught in that vacuum. The neighbor wants me cause I don’t look my age. I’m fit and possibly have good genetics. 😂


I hope you get decent alimony. If it were up to me, the WH in your situation would get a pittance to exist on and the rest would go to the BW. The end. No exceptions. That is your pension for raising his children.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Harold Demure said:


> The more I read on TAM, the more I realise some of life has passed me by. 😆
> 
> Nothing wrong with first and only!


Nothing wrong with it unless it’s taken for granted. Use to be something I cherished.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Twodecades said:


> I hope you get decent alimony. If it were up to me, the WH in your situation would get a pittance to exist on and the rest would go to the BW. The end. No exceptions. That is your pension for raising his children.


I hope.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

Torn, what is to stop you from pursuing some of those dreams now?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> *I gave up my dreams to stay at home and raise kids.*



I don't know, but to me a woman staying at home taking care of the kids and guarding the hearth of the home is not only the hardest job an individual can do, but the most important job in this world. You could ask my wife if I'm bullshitting or not, but to this day I kiss the ground she walks thanking her for that job. I make sure that she knows that I always will be grateful to her because of it. To me you can be a nuclear physicist, a brain surgeon, etc., and still I think that those jobs don't equal that of woman that chose to stay at home for the kids. Bless you all women for that.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

Rob 1, you are so right!

Torn, as I have said in some previous posts, Return To Work women were a real god send. They were keen to return to the workplace and prove (mainly to themselves) they could do the job as well as everyone else. They brought life skills, wisdom and knowledge learnt from years of parenting and most did it because they enjoyed it, rather than for the money.

Just go for it, what have you got to lose?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> I don't know, but to me a woman staying at home taking care of the kids and guarding the hearth of the home is not only the hardest job an individual can do, but the most important job in this world. You could ask my wife if I'm bullshitting or not, but to this day I kiss the ground she walks thanking her for that job. I make sure that she knows that I always will be grateful to her because of it. To me you can be a nuclear physicist, a brain surgeon, etc., and still I think that those jobs don't equal that of woman that chose to stay at home for the kids. Bless you all women for that.


Thank you for that. My only regret is now financially I am behind the 8 ball. He is fine but I am not.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Harold Demure said:


> Rob 1, you are so right!
> 
> Torn, as I have said in some previous posts, Return To Work women were a real god send. They were keen to return to the workplace and prove (mainly to themselves) they could do the job as well as everyone else. They brought life skills, wisdom and knowledge learnt from years of parenting and most did it because they enjoyed it, rather than for the money.
> 
> Just go for it, what have you got to lose?


I’ve worked. Always part time. Always in positions I was under qualified for. I gave up promotions because my kids came first. I made his life easy so he could climb the ladder while I held it. Now I’m in my 50’s and lost at where I fit.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Exactly. The physical act isn’t as harmful as the lying.


I think in the context your posts it's all one act, lying cheating and the sex is all one thing.

However you often read that in the context of failing to R where they were willing to forgive the sex but the lying was too much and I think - WTF? I mean, BS seem to say all the time, "it was the lying that killed the marriage". Really? I don't know but the idea of a someone else being inside my spouse's mouth would be bad enough for me. I mean it seems all one of the same anyway.

Honestly when I see this it just feels like a kind of the hedging that lots of BS does after the fact, it's lowering your standards because you don't want to deal with the pain of ending the marriage. If some other guy inside your wife isn't a deal breaker not sure why her lying about is worse. Some other guy was inside her, there is a level of intimacy there that seems more harsh then lying.

Besides you have to assume just getting to this point there was lots of lying and a whole bunch of other toxic behaviors, lying, planning, living a double life, covering it up for years, often disrespecting you to other people, actively pursuing, saving and spending money, all the stuff it takes to meet them somewhere and hide it, risking your health with STDs, risking pregnancy. They can do all that and your problem is that the told you then did it 5 times rather then 7? Besides of course they are lying to you! Then can do all that and you think they will tell you the truth? It's wise to just assume you are never going to get the truth anyway. Let's make no mistake a long term cheating spouse is a liar plain and simple. Not sure why I have to even write this, seems like common sense to me.

Besides all that effectively your saying if they come clean right a way the marriage surviving was never in danger? Is that really true? So they are like - "Yeah I did all that, lying, planning, living a double life, covering it up for years, often disrespecting you to other people, actively pursuing, saving and spending money, all the stuff it takes to meet them somewhere and hide it, risking your health with STDs, risking pregnancy, but now I am telling you the whole truth", and lets say they are for point of argument - you are going to be like. "Well that awful but at least I have the truth." Something isn't right about that.

It reminds me of another standard comment - "They know if they do it again it's over." Again WTF, that is supposed to scare them? They didn't "know" if they did it the first time the marriage was over? Did you tell them they could do it once then? Yeah I'm sure they are terrified that NOW it will be over. Who are you kidding, not your WS. What they know is you tolerated it once, and usually there are much better at understanding and predicting human nature then you are, that's how they get away with it. They know you better then you know them, bank on it. 

Sorry to be harsh but let's not deceive ourselves, it's better to be clear about all this and operate from a point of honestly.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Sorry but whenever I read it I think - WTF? I don't know but the idea of a someone else being inside my spouse's mouth would be bad enough for me. I mean it seems all one of the same anyway.
> 
> Honestly when I see this it just feels like a kind of the hedging that lots of BS does after the fact, it's lowering your standards because you don't want to deal with the pain of ending the marriage. If some other guy inside your wife isn't a deal breaker not sure why her lying about is worse. Some other guy was inside her, there is a level of intimacy there that seems more harsh then lying.
> 
> ...


Have you been cheated on?


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## TurnedTurtle (May 15, 2019)

sokillme said:


> I think in the context your posts it's all one act, lying cheating and the sex is all one thing.
> .....
> Sorry to be harsh but let's not deceive ourselves, it's better to be clear about all this and operate from a point of honestly.


As the one who first brought this up -- that lying and covering up are the crux of betrayal -- I did so because my FWW's affair was an EA only (and asymmetrical at that, her crushing on the OM), and yet her lying and covering up was a gut punch as hard as any physical sexual act might have been, at least to me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> Have you been cheated on?


Yep, but not by my wife. I proposed to what I guess was my first love and found out about a month later that she was actively cheating on me. We broke up. I married about 3 years later and have been married for over a decade.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I’ve worked. Always part time. Always in positions I was under qualified for. I gave up promotions because my kids came first. I made his life easy so he could climb the ladder while I held it. Now I’m in my 50’s and lost at where I fit.


So now it is You time. I am not sure that you are lost at where you fit in, I think it is more that you don’t have the confidence to get back out there and try new things - quite understandably so.

Saw this today and thought of you and QuietRiot, in a nice way 😆


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TurnedTurtle said:


> As the one who first brought this up -- that lying and covering up are the crux of betrayal -- I did so because my FWW's affair was an EA only (and asymmetrical at that, her crushing on the OM), and yet her lying and covering up was a gut punch as hard as any physical sexual act might have been, at least to me.


As hard? That I agree with but to me it's all the same. I amended my post because it wasn't as clear as I wanted it to be.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Harold Demure said:


> *Nothing wrong with first and only!*


This! this was a defining moment for me in my life. When I met my wife I've been around the block quite a few times, but for my wife I was her first, and to this day her only. That day (when we first had sex) and I got the shock of my life that what she have told me was true (I though she was bullshitting me), that's the day I decided to honor and cherish her for the rest of my life. For some reason I'm a guy that attracts women (even much, much younger than me), but to this day I have never betrayed my wife. Every time temptation knocks on my door I just think of her and I know that it's a non issue to me because I will refuse any advances. I just love my wife too much to do anything that might jeopardize my life with her.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

sokillme said:


> Yep, but not by my wife. I proposed to what I guess was my first love and found out about a month later that she was actively cheating on me. We broke up. I married about 3 years later and have been married for over a decade.


I’m sorry that happened to you.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Harold Demure said:


> So now it is You time. I am not sure that you are lost at where you fit in, I think it is more that you don’t have the confidence to get back out there and try new things - quite understandably so.
> 
> Saw this today and thought of you and QuietRiot, in a nice way 😆
> View attachment 75765


I think it is more that I’m angry I have to do what I should have done in my 20’s and 30’s. I’m 54 and I have to now bust my ass after already busting my ass. I went without for decades so others could have and now I have to work 50 or 60 hours a week just for food. All because he felt old and needed to prove he could still screw. It’s all pathetic really.


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## TurnedTurtle (May 15, 2019)

sokillme said:


> As hard? That I agree with but to me it's all the same. I amended my post because it wasn't as clear as I wanted it to be.


Much earlier in the thread there was some discussion that seemed to be trying to define what counted as infidelity and what didn't -- which seems to me a futile exercise, because as I've said, it is the lying, etc.. that is at the core of all betrayal regardless of what activities were actually engaged in.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Harold Demure said:


> So now it is You time. I am not sure that you are lost at where you fit in, I think it is more that you don’t have the confidence to get back out there and try new things - quite understandably so.
> 
> Saw this today and thought of you and QuietRiot, in a nice way 😆
> View attachment 75765


Have you been watching me?!?!? 😂


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TurnedTurtle said:


> As the one who first brought this up -- that lying and covering up are the crux of betrayal -- I did so because my FWW's affair was an EA only (and asymmetrical at that, her crushing on the OM), and yet her lying and covering up was a gut punch as hard as any physical sexual act might have been, at least to me.


Again, my post really wasn't directed at you as much as the statement without context, which is often said after trying to R. "It wasn't the affair the ended the marriage but my spouses lying about it to me." Again I amended my post to make that more clear. As far as what you just wrote, yeah to me it's just as bad.

As I see it, having an attraction and even starting to feel feeling for someone you spend a lot of time with can happen even if you are in a good marriage, though if you are bonded I think it should be harder. Still it can happen, but once you get to the lying or the sayings of I love you, to me those are deal breakers. Like if my wife had a diary and she wrote I am starting to have feeling for this guy I work with and it's wrong and I need to stop, then she got a new job or whatever, I would be OK with that. **** happens. But if she wrote, I am in love with this guy and he is all I think about, and then to compound that she actively started lying, and the worst would be telling the guy she loved him, to me that would be too much. I think you made the right decision.

It's a whole bunch of things right? It's not being bonded enough to you to stop themselves. It's not actively protecting you ahead of time. Most of all it's falling in love with someone else. I don't think you can truly romantically love two people so I would just assume the marriage is dead. I don't really believe you can come back form that and love the person again. In my mind my wife would always belong to that guy. I would just see it like he won. That is really how I see it, cut your losses and go play another game. Besides what did he win? A cheating partner, it's not like he is safe. It's like starting a business with someone you know is a thief, not a great prospect. 

On top of all that, I have a whole bunch of other feelings about how truly happy you can be with a spouse who does that to you. To be blunt from extensive reading of people's post who are in that situation, I would say you have a better chance of winning the lottery. Finally I have a positive feeling about my parents divorce so the kids of divorce thing just doesn't resonate, and I know for myself I moved on to better. All that would make it a deal breaker.

So you and I are on the same page. My original post was about how lying is worse the the sex. Sorry don't get that at all. Sex seems pretty bad. One is emotional and the other is physical but it's the intimacy of both actions that make unrecoverable for me. It's all about the intimacy.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> This! this was a defining moment for me in my life. When I met my wife I've been around the block quite a few times, but for my wife I was her first, and to this day her only. That day (when we first had sex) and I got the shock of my life that what she have told me was true (I though she was bullshitting me), that's the day I decided to honor and cherish her for the rest of my life. For some reason I'm a guy that attracts women (even much, much younger than me), but to this day I have never betrayed my wife. Every time temptation knocks on my door I just think of her and I know that it's a non issue to me because I will refuse any advances. I just love my wife too much to do anything that might jeopardize my life with her.


Sure wish I would have chosen a guy with your mindset instead of “ME ME MEEEEEEEE!” (And he isn’t singing the Sound of Music.)


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m sorry that happened to you.


Thanks. In hindsight it was a better then if we had married. Not that it excuses her actions.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I think it is more that I’m angry I have to do what I should have done in my 20’s and 30’s. I’m 54 and I have to now bust my ass after already busting my ass. I went without for decades so others could have and now I have to work 50 or 60 hours a week just for food. All because he felt old and needed to prove he could still screw. It’s all pathetic really.


Have you spoke to a lawyer to find out what your finances might look like? Would you be able to get alimony to offset the costs?


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Have you spoke to a lawyer to find out what your finances might look like? Would you be able to get alimony to offset the costs?


I will get half his pensions, and lifetime alimony. It amounts to the average rent on a 2 bedroom apartment where I live.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I will get half his pensions, and lifetime alimony. It amounts to the average rent on a 2 bedroom apartment where I live.


Ok well at least there is that. But I still have the same thoughts as you, I’m still going to be at a financial disadvantage no matter what I do, I just hope I have enough time and earning capacity so that I don’t end up a homeless cat lady. (As opposed to regular cat lady.) I’m not old per say (neither are you) but I thought I wouldn’t have to worry about this stuff. And now I do. And it’s scary. 🙁


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Ok well at least there is that. But I still have the same thoughts as you, I’m still going to be at a financial disadvantage no matter what I do, I just hope I have enough time and earning capacity so that I don’t end up a homeless cat lady. (As opposed to regular cat lady.) I’m not old per say (neither are you) but I thought I wouldn’t have to worry about this stuff. And now I do. And it’s scary. 🙁


Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be here. I’m contemplating sex work. I gave amazing blowjobs when I didn’t want to so 🤷🏼‍♀️ 😂😂


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be here. I’m contemplating sex work. I gave amazing blowjobs when I didn’t want to so 🤷🏼‍♀️ 😂😂


HA! You are killin me. 😂


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> HA! You are killin me. 😂


Truth!


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I think it is more that I’m angry I have to do what I should have done in my 20’s and 30’s. I’m 54 and I have to now bust my ass after already busting my ass. I went without for decades so others could have and now I have to work 50 or 60 hours a week just for food. All because he felt old and needed to prove he could still screw. It’s all pathetic really.


I think I would be as angry as you are with this and you have every right to be so.

He is the pathetic one, unappreciative and stupid to let the best thing he had slip from his grasp.

.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

QuietRiot said:


> Sure wish I would have chosen a guy with your mindset instead of “ME ME MEEEEEEEE!” (And he isn’t singing the Sound of Music.)


Oh lord...for some reason this has struck me as being absolutely hysterical, and I can't stop laughing...Lolol!!!!!

Maybe something in my brain finally snapped and I'm losing my mind??? Lol!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I’ve worked. Always part time. Always in positions I was under qualified for. I gave up promotions because my kids came first. I made his life easy so he could climb the ladder while I held it. Now I’m in my 50’s and lost at where I fit.


Look at it this way - We send millions of 18 year olds out into the world every day and they ain't got shyte. They have to start from square one and half of them don't even know how to do a load of laundry or how to change a flat tire or open a bank account. 

Your life has shifted gears for sure, but you have 50 years of wisdom, life experience, common sense, life skills and even though you may not have worked in your preferred field or your preferred level, your work experience is still relevant. Do you know how to show up on time and do what is asked of you????? OK, that's 80% of it. The other 20% you can learn just like the 18 year olds do - one day at a time or one class at a time or whatever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I’m contemplating sex work. I gave amazing blowjobs when I didn’t want to so 🤷🏼‍♀️ 😂😂


That can be one of those life-skills I was talking about in my post above!! LOL


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> What percentage of marriages have had infidelity and the BS never found out?
> Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


Now to address your original question. 

Our nearest DNA relatives are bonabo apes and chimpazees. When being observed in the wild, about any time their mates are out of sight, they are rubbing up against someone else and a lot of their social order and alliances are influenced by their sexual prowess and their sexual prowess is in turn influenced by their social ranking. 

I'm not sure we've really evolved all that far from them. (and at times I wonder if they have actually evolved away from us in that regard) 

But anyway, as I stated in the 'Betrayed' thread, I think if everyone were to have hidden cameras on them 24/7 for their entire lifetime, most people at some point or another in their life have rubbed up against someone they weren't supposed to. 

Now the question does arise at what point do we call it cheating? Does it have to be PIV? Does a BJ after work in car in the back of a city park count? Or a heavy drunken make out in the cleaning closet at the office Christmas party? 

I think there are a couple strong forces at work here. On one hand as human we are drawn to pair bond and we place a lot of significance and investment into our mating pair bond. Most people have a deep desire to have a mate and our societal structure is largely built up around that strategy. 

However, we are not designed as monogamous creatures. Monogamy is a social construct. Now it may have some important, legitimate purposes and I don't think anyone wants us all to go all Darwin at any given moment. But the biological fact is we as a species don't have lifetime monogamy as part of our hard-drive programming. 

The great forces that we all have to reconcile is we all want to have a degree of sexual license and freedom,, but we also want to have a pair-bonded mate, but we don't want our mate getting with anyone else, and they will typically not want us to get with anyone else and will often refuse to continue to be our mate if we do. 

That creates quite the primordial conflict within all of us and each of us and we each have to find out own way of dealing with those conflicting desires and parameters and we also have to find a way to deal with those conflicting issues as a couple with our mate. 

Balancing our desires and our urges with maintaining a functional pair bond really is one of our greatest challenges in life. 

And we have life expectantcys of approx 80 years so that gives us moreless 60 years of turmoil. Some handle that better and some handle it worse than others. 

I think if we could gather all the hidden camera footage from the lifespans of all the people on the earth, I think that we would find very very very few that got with the first person they had sex with and remained with that person and never touched another for life. I think there was one sighted in Montana a few years ago and there were reports of one in Mongolia at one time LOL 

Now what of all of that constitutes cheating and how many of them got away with it with the BS never finding out. I suspect a lot. 

Of all the Tomfoolery and shenanigans in the world, I suspect most are never discovered. 

Until we get those hidden cameras, I don't think we'll ever have remotely accurate statistics.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Oh lord...for some reason this has struck me as being absolutely hysterical, and I can't stop laughing...Lolol!!!!!
> 
> Maybe something in my brain finally snapped and I'm losing my mind??? Lol!


I’ve felt that way sooooo many times in the last year. Insanity to the point of hysteria. 🤣


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> We all know that infidelity is rampant. We have seen lives and families destroyed.
> I am curious what y’all think.
> What percentage of marriages have had infidelity and the BS never found out?
> Do you think most cheating is caught or that many people simply get away with it?


I believe the far greater majority of couples participate in something that would never pass the spouse test and they get away with it but with the caveat that many learn from the bad choices and adjust their behavior to go on to have successful marriages where others do not adjust their behavior and eventually damage their marriages or even end them.

As to actually adultery (physical infidelity), I believe there is a pretty significant percentage that has a one off or short term affair, has some kind of come to Jesus moment and adjusts their behavior and go on to have a successful marriage.

There is a smaller percentage that has ongoing or serial affairs and pulls them off as part of a secret lifestyle but I don't believe they represent a large portion.

I believe the serial or repeat or long term affair participants are the most often eventually found out.

I am convinced the majority of one off or short term cheaters who reform or just go on to a different relationship or marriage are never found out.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

To get a little simpler.... I think most marriages have one or both spouses behaving in a way that won't pass the sniff test at least once during the relationship.

I'm really unsure if the majority of marriages experience physical infidelity. If the majority do, I believe it is a slim majority.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be here. I’m contemplating sex work. I gave amazing blowjobs when I didn’t want to so 🤷🏼‍♀️ 😂😂


Lolol!!!! You go girl!!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> I think more in the lines of the dreams and career I gave up. I’m fairly intelligent. I gave up my dreams to stay at home and raise kids. I don’t regret it cause they are wonderful but I wonder who I would have been had I not. I kinda got caught in that vacuum. The neighbor wants me cause I don’t look my age. I’m fit and possibly have good genetics. 😂


Yes, but didn't you do that more for YOUR KIDS, and not a husband? I "served" both of my husbands while I was home with the kids, but I did that as a GIFT to them, and out of love and appreciation for being able to stay home and be available for my children. But I never did one single thing that I didn't choose to do, because I wanted to do it. And I wouldn't change anything!

I understand you feeling regret and bitterness after the way your husband spit on what you gave him of yourself, but what you invested in your children is absolutely worth it, and I'm sure THEY are grateful for your sacrifice!!! (even if they don't realize it yet! Lol!!)


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I am not sure how common or uncommon the situations that @oldshirt describes are. Certainly in everyday life despite best Mike Pence rule intentions you interact with the opposite sex all the time without your spouse.

Whether it’s a work call, an informal conversation at the bar or on public transportation, at the gym, whatever... it happens. This happens both ways. When I hear my wife on Zoom calls and such I think hmm maybe that dude on the other end is thirsty. It’s just stuff that happens. It makes sense if I am attracted to her that other guys will be as well.

Back when we had offices I literally tried to Mike Pence. I only had 1-1 with women in offices with the door open or I moved them to a large public space. I preferred moving it to an atrium or other large area. A lot of this is because I never wanted to be #metoo’d and if all your activity is on a security camera you’re good. Going to bars to blow off steam after work, nope.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I think it is more that I’m angry I have to do what I should have done in my 20’s and 30’s. I’m 54 and I have to now bust my ass after already busting my ass. I went without for decades so others could have and now I have to work 50 or 60 hours a week just for food. All because he felt old and needed to prove he could still screw. It’s all pathetic really.


This really sucks! Reinventing yourself right now is depressing.

I'm not in your shoes of course but I am getting to the point about just how hard I want to keep working or striving.

I've always been able to adapt and overcome and work really hard and alter things but I'm getting to the point where I just don't really want to anymore.

I agree with you about the 20's and 30's. Even in my 40's I didn't mind altering course and changing direction.

We are close enough in age not to make much difference and I'm feeling it now.

I still have a lot of opportunities and I'm no where near the spot you're in but I feel the lack of oomph to keep at it like I use to.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> This really sucks! Reinventing yourself right now is depressing.
> 
> I'm not in your shoes of course but I am getting to the point about just how hard I want to keep working or striving.
> 
> ...


I suppose I have no choice. I could take him back and carry on but I will lose my soul if I did that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would be here. I’m contemplating sex work. I gave amazing blowjobs when I didn’t want to so 🤷🏼‍♀️ 😂😂


Now, now,


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> I suppose I have no choice. I could take him back and carry on but I will lose my soul if I did that.


I'm definitely not advocating for taking him back.

He cheated on you and harmed you physically.😡


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> This really sucks! Reinventing yourself right now is depressing.
> 
> I'm not in your shoes of course but I am getting to the point about just how hard I want to keep working or striving.
> 
> ...


This x1000.

I used to work insane hours. I wanted to be the top dog. All the other guys at work I was like, “Hey it’s ok this isn’t for everyone you gotta know your role.” “If you can’t run with the big dogs you best stay on the porch.” and various other trash talk lines which I now only use on the basketball court.

I just don’t have the same killer instinct on a daily basis I used to have. I can have it in spurts here and there, but overall I think maybe I value other things more now. I am happy to take my foot off the gas a little bit and coast whereas before there was no quarter given for anything and I was relentless.

There is no way I would go on a two week trip with no contact from the office. Even a couple day trip I would start getting antsy about things going sideways at work and it would partially ruin it. Nowadays I’m much more laid back and if it breaks and burns oh well, I will fix it when I get around to it.

I have noticed the same thing with a bunch of friends who are similar to me and around the same age. More golf, tennis, and lunch meetings and less murderer’s row stuff.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

One more thing I’m not suggesting what I did was wrong or anything. It caused some problems but it also put us in a financial position where we’re not limited by money.

I actually kind of wish my wife would let off the gas and take a year off and do whatever she wants but she doesn’t want to end up in a position of weakness with respect to her work situation (bringing it back to the thread).

I think ultimately she maybe rightly never wants to be completely dependent on someone else. I think she saw examples with her mom where her mom made herself dependent on others and she got screwed and didn’t want that to happen.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> One more thing I’m not suggesting what I did was wrong or anything. It caused some problems but it also put us in a financial position where we’re not limited by money.
> 
> I actually kind of wish my wife would let off the gas and take a year off and do whatever she wants but she doesn’t want to end up in a position of weakness with respect to her work situation (bringing it back to the thread).
> 
> I think ultimately she maybe rightly never wants to be completely dependent on someone else. I think she saw examples with her mom where her mom made herself dependent on others and she got screwed and didn’t want that to happen.


I don’t regret most of the choices I made. I didn’t have a crystal ball. I’m just sad mostly. Over 30 years up in smoke for what? Not even because he fell in love...all for a strange vagina. Ego kibbles. Some days it is impossible to get my head around.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I know it is hard for people to believe but I don’t. I gave up my dreams and my life to my husband and my family._ I’m half the person_ I could have been. I’m happy mostly being alone now. I can’t imagine trying to integrate another human in my life.


It doesn't matter what you think....

That empty half (yours) is a vacuum that must be filled.

Presently, it is filled with bitter thoughts and muddy water.

Your 'kid me's' will soon filter that out. 

A new love will eventually find you and snuggle himself in.

He may, or may not be as fulfilling, but one will find you.
If, you remain bitter, a sweeter man will likely bypass you.

Angry people draw-in, other unpleasant auras.

Properly, getting over those past hurts, prepares one for any future pleasures.

_Be, as you want close-others to be.



King Brian-_


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> It doesn't matter what you think....
> 
> That empty half (yours) is a vacuum that must be filled.
> 
> ...


Sage advise. Thank you


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t regret most of the choices I made. I didn’t have a crystal ball. I’m just sad mostly. Over 30 years up in smoke for what? Not even because he fell in love...*all for a strange vagina. Ego kibbles*. Some days it is impossible to get my head around.


For him...
The strange vagina is the lure, the compliments, the supposed, the wished-for compatibility, the glue.

Some men and some women; nowadays, have more than a one-lane road awaiting them.
His road led him to a new woman and a new life; your life will follow suit, initially, kicking and crying.

It is my strongest wish that you will be forever grateful for his departure, with you finding a new and good man and a new penis to cherish.

Penises and vaginas are everywhere, are commonplace. They are the draw, not the prize.

We merrily, marry the mind and merely, enjoy the sex organs.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> For him...
> The strange vagina is the lure, the compliments, the supposed, the wished-for compatibility, the glue.
> 
> Some men and some women; nowadays, have more than a one-lane road awaiting them.
> ...


I understand your comments. The only thing is she didn’t want him as she married the man she was screwing around on. 😂


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Torninhalf said:


> I understand your comments. The only thing is she didn’t want him as she married the man she was screwing around on. 😂


Then...

It was she, his mistress, that separating the wheat from the chaff?
And, not some _*wayward wind?*_

You were the wheat, your WW husband, the chaff.

She stripped him from you, and then saw his chaff, discarding him as unworthy of taking in.


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## Harold Demure (Oct 21, 2020)

30 years of marriage gone up in smoke but not 30 years of your life. Look at your kids and recognise what a good job you did.

There must be some jobs that are worse than taking him back - but I just can’t think of any yet.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I don’t regret most of the choices I made. I didn’t have a crystal ball. I’m just sad mostly. Over 30 years up in smoke for what? Not even because he fell in love...all for a strange vagina. Ego kibbles. Some days it is impossible to get my head around.


Mine did “fall in love” and no, it doesn’t make it any better. It sucks in other ways. Just like if the chick they were banging was better looking, I may think it would make me feel better, but it wouldn’t. I’d still think he was an asshole and only cared about physical looks. At least right now I can say “goddamn you have no taste! You didn’t even upgrade you pathetic man!” That feels good sometimes. 😂

I think it’s just impossible to wrap your head around cheating when you’re a non-cheater. That’s all there is.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

As others have said, it depends how you define infidelity/cheating.

If we are defining it as actual sex acts designed to achieve physical release for one or both parties, that was not discovered: probably higher than we think but certainly not universal (hopefully not a majority).

If we are defining it as inappropriate sexual behavior (carrying on inappropriate flirting, sexual flirting, sexting, kissing, inappropriate relationships that don’t involve actual sex acts, etc): I think it’s probably 100% (or close to it) of marriages have had some of this go on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> As others have said, it depends how you define infidelity/cheating.
> 
> If we are defining it as actual sex acts designed to achieve physical release for one or both parties, that was not discovered: probably higher than we think but certainly not universal (hopefully not a majority).
> 
> If we are defining it as inappropriate sexual behavior (carrying on inappropriate flirting, sexual flirting, sexting, inappropriate relationships that don’t involve actual sex, kissing, etc): I think it’s probably 100% (or close to it) of marriages have had some of this go on.


No way that's 100% or close. There are still a lot if completely faithful people around who would never do the things you mentioned.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

I hope you’re right, but I don’t think so. 
I think that for some “lower level” inappropriate behavior to have occured at some point in a marriage is extremely common.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DudeInProgress said:


> I hope you’re right, but I don’t think so.
> I think that for some “lower level” inappropriate behavior to have occured at some point in a marriage is extremely common.


Maybe be fairly common but a lot of couples wouldn't do those things.


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