# Chumplady: Response to “I’ve Changed!”



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

The Ready Chump Response to “I’ve Changed!”

July 13, 2016 by @chumplady

I reckon I’ve read tens of thousands of infidelity stories to date. Maybe hundreds of thousands. (I should crunch the numbers.) And one common recitation I read time and again after D-Day, is when cheaters threatened with the loss of cake, don unicorn costumes and tell chumps that they’ve Changed.

Really? Upon discovery of affairs and illicit ****fests and diverted monies and God knows what else, we are to believe you just had an instantaneous character change? Saw the error of your ways and repented? Realized everything you could lose and are committed now?

Oh how chumps want to believe this. At the moment of the big devalue to hear that, hang on, upon consideration! you have value after all. And that person and all those ugly truths you discovered? The cheater is not that person, but a NEW person you can trust!


(read the rest here)


----------



## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

I can't like this enough. It sure describes my STBX and his behavior. The best part though about it is how the BS is truly a new person. Although yes; infidelity is devastating~we usually come out the other side stronger especially if we waded through all the lies and craziness that comes out of their mouth. For me, I know I am a much healthier person emotionally than I ever have been and if it wasn't for his affair, I wouldn't be.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

5Creed said:


> I can't like this enough. It sure describes my STBX and his behavior. The best part though about it is how the BS is truly a new person. Although yes; infidelity is devastating~we usually come out the other side stronger especially if we waded through all the lies and craziness that comes out of their mouth. For me, I know I am a much healthier person emotionally than I ever have been and if it wasn't for his affair, I wouldn't be.


I'm glad you liked the article..Chumplady is a great resource for BSs...she also asks some valid questions in her article..

*"....we are to believe you just had an instantaneous character change? Saw the error of your ways and repented? Realized everything you could lose and are committed now?"*

Since many affairs are discovered and not confessed - how is the BS ever raelly sure that the affair would not be going on or that the WS would have simply buried it after their little adventure was over..I read on a thread elsewhere in which the WW did confess she'd still be shagging her affair partner if the H had not found out..the BH is staying but I dont know how you get past that one - I think for many WSs - just my opinion - the "change" is more a fear of the consequences and nothing more...

Even if their has been change CL rightly points out that believing the WS has changed takes YEARS especially if the had a LTA for a couple of years of more...I dont know how BSs bounce back from their WS having what is in essence a parallel a marriage for a couple of years...


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

That was my H for a while, but he has worked to actually change himself in the last few years. I am appreciative of the effort, but the trouble is, by the time he finally got serious about fixing himself and showing true remorse, I had emotionally distanced myself from him. Once you do that, it's hard to find your way back. So, I would add to Chump Lady's post that, even if the cheater changes for real, sometimes it's either too late or the BS just doesn't care anymore.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> That was my H for a while, but he has worked to actually change himself in the last few years. I am appreciative of the effort, but the trouble is, by the time he finally got serious about fixing himself and showing true remorse, I had emotionally distanced myself from him. Once you do that, it's hard to find your way back. So, I would add to Chump Lady's post that, even if the cheater changes for real, sometimes it's either too late or the BS just doesn't care anymore.


Absolutely - sometimes it is too late - especially when the WS takes their damned sweet tme doing the work...many WSs dont realize or care that they in fact have changed their BS - I love this quote from @chumplady:

*"You’re changed? No. I’m changed. The new person here is me. I discovered you played me for a chump. This knowledge has transformed me. Shattered me and put me back together in new ways. And knowing what I know about you now — who you really are, what you did — does not fit in my new life."*

I dont think many cheaters ever realize the full extent of their damage - nor do many care ot hear about it after a certain period of time. I have read numerous cases of R where the BS doesnt even mention triggers to their WS anymore - that is such bullsh!t that they lay this on you while they walk aroudn thinking times are good...

One thing is for sure the damage never fully goes away - ever.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

That is a great quote from her. I was just thinking I would respond with something like:

"Great! Then go be that great Changed Person for someone else. Treat them better than you treated me."


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> That is a great quote from her. I was just thinking I would respond with something like:
> 
> "Great! Then go be that great Changed Person for someone else. Treat them better than you treated me."


This was another great quote from the article:

*"Can you change? I hope so. I hope for your soul, for our children’s future, that you can be a better person. But the fact that you’re trying to sell me on bogus, immediate character transplants doesn’t inspire confidence. It makes me think you’re a con. You wear the humiliation and the shame for a long while and get back to me on that “new person” thing."*

Many WS only "see the light" when their cake has been taken away or they would just keep eating...to prove one has changed takes time - lots of it - which is why I dont buy quick Rs after infidelity - how can you truly trust the WS unless they put in the time to show they have changed and by that time do you still want them? Many have posted here that a lot of BS regret staying 5-10 years out I can see that - once the initial shock and fear has worn off you probably begin to think what are you left with or what have you won exactly?


----------



## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Many WS only "see the light" when their cake has been taken away or they would just keep eating...to prove one has changed takes time - lots of it - which is why I dont buy quick Rs after infidelity - how can you truly trust the WS unless they put in the time to show they have changed and by that time do you still want them? Many have posted here that a lot of BS regret staying 5-10 years out I can see that - once the initial shock and fear has worn off you rpboably begin to thing what are you left with or what have you won exactly?


That's what I'm having trouble getting past with my H. He didn't try to fix anything until I was knee deep in an EA and half way out the door. Then he suddenly decided he was in love with me again and didn't want to lose me. It took seeing that someone else wanted me for him to want me again. 

I told him that if he had shown real remorse and said he would do anything to make it up to me right after the affair confession, then it might have made a difference. But what I got was one "I'm sorry" text and that was it. He said in MC they he felt like if I wasn't bringing it up again, then why would he? I said it's because you broke it, it was your responsibility to try to fix it. 

He gets that now and I know he wishes he could go back and do everything differently. So do I, both the way he handled it and the way I did. You can't change the past, but the past can and does change you.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

blahfridge said:


> *You can't change the past, but the past can and does change you.*


I love the highlighted comment - many WS dont get this - they think its all in the past - but the change you have forced upon your BS is with them now and forever - that changed person is standing there in front of you - the scars remain.....which is why R seems like a tricky proposition and in the end the WS gets the most benefit from it when you think about it - they got to have their affair and they got to keep their family and the BS in order to reconcile has to swallow that fact and many cant...tha tis a fact...the WS got to have it both ways...


----------



## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

this is exactly what i needed to read. I've been getting "ive changed" bullsh!t all week. and i wasn't buying it, but the fake nice is hard for me to deal with.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sixty-eight said:


> this is exactly what i needed to read. I've been getting "ive changed" bullsh!t all week. and i wasn't buying it, but the fake nice is hard for me to deal with.


Glad it helped you - change and proof of change takes time and repeated actions - because the WS also declared their vow to be faithful on your wedding day and we all know how that turned out words form a WS mean absolutely sh!t its actions - their choice to cheat was an ACTION that showed disloyalty, disrespect and selfishness pretty words dont fix this..


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The Ready Chump Response to “I’ve Changed!”
> 
> July 13, 2016 by @chumplady
> 
> ...


I wish I could hack SI and make all the thread point to her site.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I wish I could hack SI and make all the thread point to her site.


LOL many BSs there could use a healthy dose of chumplady...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm glad you liked the article..Chumplady is a great resource for BSs...she also asks some valid questions in her article..
> 
> *"....we are to believe you just had an instantaneous character change? Saw the error of your ways and repented? Realized everything you could lose and are committed now?"*
> 
> ...


Everything you said is true, the thing that is always left out is that there are better people out there to invest your future in. Who cares if they have changed (doubt it, would they even know how to I mean how do we even know they know right from wrong), there are much better people to be in relationships with. These are people who can lie for months, and years to the ones they say they love. When it comes to long term relationships these types of people are worthless.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> One thing is for sure the damage never fully goes away - ever.


There is a thread on SI reconciled by a woman 10 years out, she says it doesn't go away. She sounds miserable but is happy she R. Poor lady. Of course then a bunch of other said "yeah I feel the same". So sad.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

The older I get, the more "people don't really change" is reinforced for me. Do epiphanies happen? Sure, but they are as rare as a virgin sailor in port.

I bashed my head on a brick wall for many years. Finally, I learned to say, calmly, "From the bottom of my heart... I really don't give a single fcuk."

I only have so much energy and Care to give out. My life changed. Yours (collectively) can too.

Get over the idea that selfishness is a Bad word. It's not.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Everything you said is true, the thing that is always left out is that there are better people out there to invest your future in. Who cares if they have changed (doubt it, would they even know how to I mean how do we even know they know right from wrong), there are much better people to be in relationships with. These are people who can lie for months, and years to the ones they say they love. When it comes to long term relationships these types of people are worthless.


The LTA folks who profess love for their BS always crack me up - you fvcked another person for YEARS - repeatedly lied, cheated and diverted energy and resources from your home to your lover for YEARS - I really dont see how yu fix that and as scary as life after divorce might be there ar emillions of good people in the world who will not cheat on you...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I love the highlighted comment - many WS dont get this - they think its all in the past - but the change you have forced upon your BS is with them now and forever - that changed person is standing there in front of you - the scars remain.....which is why R seems like a tricky proposition and in the end the WS gets the most benefit from it when you think about it - they got to have their affair and they got to keep their family and the BS in order to reconcile has to swallow that fact and many cant...tha tis a fact...the WS got to have it both ways...


I think most BS don't get this either. They think they if they work hard enough, if there WS works hard enough, they will one day be able to get back to where they were. Nope. You will always have a 3rd party in that relationship. The affair. The marriage as you knew it will always be dead.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> There is a thread on SI reconciled by a woman 10 years out, she says it doesn't go away. She sounds miserable but is happy she R. Poor lady. Of course then a bunch of other said "yeah I feel the same". So sad.


This right here - newly betrayeds need to read this - there are folks 5-10 years out still miserable - they needed to have some faith in themselves and leave - I get the fear and lack of self confidence I really do but I would think there cmes a point when you crack and cant live that like anymore - looking day after day at your Ws who fvcked someone else, got their pleasure and now settles in at home carefree...that is a lot to swallow


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I think most BS don't get this either. They think they if they work hard enough, if there WS works hard enough, they will one day be able to get back to where they were. Nope. You will always have a 3rd party in that relationship. The affair. The marriage as you knew it will always be dead.


Because in the back of the BS's mind they know their WS betrayed them in one of th emost vile manners possible - how can you ever fully repect or trust that person again?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> The older I get, the more "people don't really change" is reinforced for me. Do epiphanies happen? Sure, but they are as rare as a virgin sailor in port.
> 
> I bashed my head on a brick wall for many years. Finally, I learned to say, calmly, "From the bottom of my heart... I really don't give a single fcuk."
> 
> ...


For people to change it takes TIME and lots of hard work - not pretty words - many folks who say they have changed are merely afraid of the consequences for their actions - but if they could get away with it would do it again in a heartbeat..


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

I don't believe people fundamentally change after they reach adulthood and the scientific literature agrees, if you believe the data about personalities being fundamentally formed by ~25 years of age.

People need to be more willing to walk away from bad situations, relationships, etc. when they know there are fundamental differences.

Epiphanies can happen, but I believe the situations must be extreme to drive that kind of change. I don't think even divorce is enough to drive it. Near death for oneself or a loved one, perhaps.

My nickel only, of course. Some people think there is merit in struggling through the bramble patch for its own sake. I disagree. If I can't see the way out and the goal worth fighting for, I'm not going in.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> I don't believe people fundamentally change after they reach adulthood and the scientific literature agrees, if you believe the data about personalities being fundamentally formed by ~25 years of age.
> 
> People need to be more willing to walk away from bad situations, relationships, etc. when they know there are fundamental differences.
> 
> ...


I do agree it takes something extreme to change a person in most cases..


----------



## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

I believed my STBX when he told me he had changed, he wouldn't do this or that any longer, he would put his family first. I was cautious but wanted to believe all that he told me. Then his behavior gave it all away; he didn't mean what he was telling me. More lies. The marriage counselor we went to told him if he really wanted to change and stop acting like a 16 year old teenager then he would need some good intense therapy. This is a successful in his career grown man by the way. He didn't follow up with that which was nothing on me since he knew I was finished with the marriage. But I so agree that some of our main core traits will stay the same no matter what. He has told me recently his sister is giving him relationship books to read. Yeah; that is going to help you a lot. 

I am finally mostly able to look at things from a different perspective and not from the view of the devastated hurting BS that I was for so long. I still have my bad days but really I feel pity for him. He can't get his sh!t together and I think now that is going to be what his life looks like.


----------



## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The Ready Chump Response to “I’ve Changed!”
> 
> July 13, 2016 by @chumplady
> 
> ...


Operative word. Devalue. Other words, Disrespect. Lowering of status.

Can't take back a cheater. No respect at all.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

No changes are necessary because it's a choice. They choose now, for their own personal reason(s) to be faithful. There can still be another decision to be unfaithful at a later date. It's not a disease. It's a radical form of passive aggression combined with normal pleasure seeking actions caused by selfishness and some mildly psychopathic thoughts which are common to many humans.

To put it simply, it's a decision. They wanted to do it and so they did. 

Once that boundary has been crossed, it can more easily be crossed again. Switching back and forth from faithful to unfaithful gets easier with each decision.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This right here - newly betrayeds need to read this - there are folks 5-10 years out still miserable - they needed to have some faith in themselves and leave - I get the fear and lack of self confidence I really do but I would think there cmes a point when you crack and cant live that like anymore - looking day after day at your Ws who fvcked someone else, got their pleasure and now settles in at home carefree...that is a lot to swallow


Unless you married a virgin, "looking day after day at your [wife] who fvcked someone else" could be said for every husband.

I also dislike the repeated notion that reconciling means the wayward got away with the affair and/or had their good times. There's no getting away with adultery. Consequences always follow. Staying with the betrayed spouse is hard on the repentant wayward spouse too, and, I imagine, even more difficult for the reconciling unrepentant cheater who remains wayward but is now being scrutinized, shamed and watched more closely than ever (not that I care ~ just saying they are not living consequence free ~ "getting away with it"). Plus affair sex is indecent, disgusting, degrading and revolting. It's like saying a raped spouse at least on some level "got to" have sex with someone esle and on some level liked it. 

Finally ~ 99.9% of people are, on some level, capable of rationalizing and justifying cheating. Dumping a cheater because there are other people with better character our there that won't cheat on you might be a bigger gamble you'll be cheated on again than staying with the repentant cheater you've already got.

Chumplady is not a person to take relationship advice from considering the disaster she's made of her own relationships. She's merely a humorist, not any kind of expert. She probably ok for the soon to be divorced with an unrepentant cheater spouse as they process themselves through the anger stage of the whole thing because CL might sooth them with the comfort that it's really over, nothing they could have done could have changed anything because they're soon to be ex is and has always been a piece of crap, you're great ~ it's all their fault and reconciliation isn't real so stop bothering. Otherwise she's pretty toxic because most of her humor is based upon the lie that people can't change and there is no hope. There is. Doesn't mean everyone has to do it or bother trying. Divorce is a right in such situations but it's not the default right answer every time.

People CAN change. Just because some waywards are full of crap or feign repentance doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen. Even quickly sometimes. I know because I witnessed it with my own eyes. Recovered and happy nearly 20 years later.

If you want advice and guidance on saving your marriage. Chump is not the place. 

I also like how she knocks the reconciliation industry but then writes {Promotes and SELLS} a book containing a chapter {or several chapters} on how to reconcile the chumplady way ~ which she has never utilized herself or guided anyone herself to success with so it's just a complete shot in the dark lay opinion. This unwittingly has actually has made her a part of the reconciliation industry that she so detests. Also seems a bit hypocritical to write satirical articles about how cheaters can't change but then include a chapter or two in her books about how to reconcile anyway. Then again, she's not exactly the shiniest bulb in the box. Just another forum poster {like any of us} that started their own hate blog after being banned which went to her head so she now believes herself a marketable expert.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Quality said:


> Unless you married a virgin, "looking day after day at your [wife] who fvcked someone else" could be said for every husband.


And every wife. Unless you are a virgin, why would you want one? Creepy.




Quality said:


> I also dislike the repeated notion that reconciling means the wayward got away with the affair and/or had their good times.


They did have a good time. Do you think they were raped? Rape isn't infidelity. It's a crime. 




Quality said:


> There's no getting away with adultery. Consequences always follow. Staying with the betrayed spouse is hard on the repentant wayward spouse too, and, I imagine, even more difficult for the reconciling unrepentant cheater who remains wayward but is now being scrutinized, shamed and watched more closely than ever (not that I care ~ just saying they are not living consequence free ~ "getting away with it").


In their hearts, they know there is no getting away with it. It's partly why many do it. They want their spouse to see how much they feel abandoned and alone. Are there other ways to do it? Many will say they couldn't talk to their spouse. I guess an affair was easier than opening up and actually saying what they need? Some spouses are really wrapped up in themselves, on both sides of the affair....both of the spouses.

The consequences you seem to allude to were likely there before the affair. How will those help to reconcile? Yeah, it is surprising anyone reconciles their marriage after an affair. It's a bigger gamble than dating, because you know there is no contract between you and there will likely be other partners. In marriage, you are duped into believing in the faithfulness our your spouse. 




Quality said:


> Plus affair sex is indecent, disgusting, degrading and revolting. It's like saying a raped spouse at least on some level "got to" have sex with someone esle and on some level liked it.


Maybe it's disgusting to you, but most who are in the affair seem to enjoy the hell out of it while it's going on. The tension is high. Life is dangerous and exciting. They know they will get caught. The gamble is, if they can find someone better than the faithful spouse before being caught. 

There are the consequences. They know what they are going back to and they know that they will get the faithful into counseling or they will divorce. You will comply or else. They will have to suffer some shame, but it will be short lived and only bothersome when brought up. They didn't do it in shame. They did it because they wanted to and thought it would save them. It made most feel much much better about themselves and build confidence in the fact they will make it and find another if they have to divorce because of the affair. 

What consequences does a betrayed live with? 




Quality said:


> Finally ~ 99.9% of people are, on some level, capable of rationalizing and justifying cheating. Dumping a cheater because there are other people with better character our there that won't cheat on you might be a bigger gamble you'll be cheated on again than staying with the repentant cheater you've already got.


Sure they are capable of justifying cheating, murder, beating someone into a hospital, breaking their back and paralyzing them, hoping they get cancer and offering to buy them a pack of cigarettes, taking their lunch, putting something that will make them ill in their food or drink, cheating them out of money on a sale, and many more things. Doesn't make any of those things right.

What I am saying is, we all can think of things to justify behaviors. We don't all do the things we are justifying in our heads. That's a leap some don't take.



Quality said:


> Divorce is a right in such situations but it's not the default right answer every time.


It's not the default answer. Neither can any of us know what really happened in a marriage by what only one spouse posts. No one knows who is lying and when. We all do that, too. 




Quality said:


> People CAN change. Just because some waywards are full of crap or feign repentance doesn't mean it doesn't ever happen. Even quickly sometimes. I know because I witnessed it with my own eyes. Recovered and happy nearly 20 years later.


It's a decision to cheat. So, yeah, people can change....their minds...and decide not to cheat today. They can also decide to cheat tomorrow, once again. 

Like any other bad habit, and that's really over simplifying the decision to be unfaithful, it can come back pretty easily the more you do it...the more it is accepted by a betrayed spouse. Therefore, the betrayed should be vigilant and call out bad behavior for the rest of your life with the wayward. 

Tell me. Who has it easier? I say neither.





Quality said:


> If you want advice and guidance on saving your marriage. Chump is not the place.


You wouldn't go to a bookstore to buy a new muffler for your car. You might research them there. By the same token, you wouldn't go to a website for betrayed spouses to reconcile. Anyone can write anything. You don't have to believe it. I'm guessing you've believed many things you likely should not have, just to get through all of the issues you've had.

Sorry for being so blunt. I must have had a little trigger from being betrayed.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Just another forum poster {like any of us} that started their own hate blog after being banned which went to her head so she now believes herself a marketable expert.


Hate blog? :laugh: I guess I can put you in the "not a fan camp" Have anice day.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

BobSimmons said:


> Operative word. Devalue. Other words, Disrespect. Lowering of status.
> 
> Can't take back a cheater. No respect at all.


The cheater has no respect for and does not value their BS that is obvious especially in the case of a LTA. The value their own pleasure and ego kibbles.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

5Creed said:


> I believed my STBX when he told me he had changed, he wouldn't do this or that any longer, he would put his family first. I was cautious but wanted to believe all that he told me. Then his behavior gave it all away; he didn't mean what he was telling me. More lies. The marriage counselor we went to told him if he really wanted to change and stop acting like a 16 year old teenager then he would need some good intense therapy. This is a successful in his career grown man by the way. He didn't follow up with that which was nothing on me since he knew I was finished with the marriage. But I so agree that some of our main core traits will stay the same no matter what. He has told me recently his sister is giving him relationship books to read. Yeah; that is going to help you a lot.
> 
> I am finally mostly able to look at things from a different perspective and not from the view of the devastated hurting BS that I was for so long. I still have my bad days but really I feel pity for him. He can't get his sh!t together and I think now that is going to be what his life looks like.


Your STBX has to WANT to change which takes lots of soul searching and at that point - the REALLY hard work begins. It looks like he doesn't want to change bad enough does he?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> No changes are necessary because it's a choice. They choose now, for their own personal reason(s) to be faithful. There can still be another decision to be unfaithful at a later date. It's not a disease. It's a radical form of passive aggression combined with normal pleasure seeking actions caused by selfishness and some mildly psychopathic thoughts which are common to many humans.
> 
> To put it simply, it's a decision. They wanted to do it and so they did.
> 
> Once that boundary has been crossed, it can more easily be crossed again. Switching back and forth from faithful to unfaithful gets easier with each decision.


I would think that in the case of a LTA - repeatedly lyinig to your BS makes it easier and easier to be dishonest about things..since repeatedly engaing in this behavior reinforces it. To dig oneself out of the mud and the dirt will take a lot of work...and dedication how many waywards truly have that in them?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> And every wife. Unless you are a virgin, why would you want one? Creepy.
> 
> No idea what you are saying here
> 
> ...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Hate blog? :laugh: I guess I can put you in the "not a fan camp" Have anice day.


Yeah. You could put me there. I don't find her satire funny nor her pretending to be an expert. She's really offensive if you think about it ~ trying to profit off of making fun of real people and their misery. My wife said and did some stupid stuff during her waywardness, glad Tracy wasn't around to profit off it.

From what I gathered, she was a disgruntled poster on SI that tried to save her 2nd marriage to a serial cheater. She tried too hard for too long to fix a very young marriage with a guy she discovered was cheating on her their entire relationship. No kids together. Most of us here would have told her to divorce long before she did but the posters at SI aren't about telling anyone what they should do so it's no wonder she was bitter about her experience on an infidelity forum. So she starts a blog hating on forums and recruits on those forums for visitors and comments. Until, inevitably, she gets banned for advertising as she herself, becomes a part of the "reconciliation infidelity advice industry"'.

Tracy is witty and funny at times but her research, logic and reading comprehension is very off or incomplete at other times. It's satire. It's humor. I get it. Hopefully THAT helps people who are negotiating the path towards and through divorce but it's not researched based REAL expert help with the decision making process regarding whether a marriage is truly salvageable or not, nor how one would go about it. Overwhelming consistent messages of divorce now, people don't change, reconciliation is an illusion, your spouse is serial cheater doesn't make the statements fact. There are websites that say the earth is flat and if they chose to, they could control the comments to make it appear 1000's of people commenting around the world agreed with them. Doesn't make it a fact.


----------



## adjq.842 (Jun 11, 2016)

truthseeker1 said:


> hate blog?  i guess i can put you in the "not a fan camp" have anice day.


هلاوغلا

أرسلت من gt-i9060i بإستخدام تاباتلك


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Yeah. You could put me there. I don't find her satire funny nor her pretending to be an expert. She's really offensive if you think about it ~ trying to profit off of making fun of real people and their misery. My wife said and did some stupid stuff during her waywardness, glad Tracy wasn't around to profit off it.
> 
> From what I gathered, she was a disgruntled poster on SI that tried to save her 2nd marriage to a serial cheater. She tried too hard for too long to fix a very young marriage with a guy she discovered was cheating on her their entire relationship. No kids together. Most of us here would have told her to divorce long before she did but the posters at SI aren't about telling anyone what they should do so it's no wonder she was bitter about her experience on an infidelity forum. So she starts a blog hating on forums and recruits on those forums for visitors and comments. Until, inevitably, she gets banned for advertising as she herself, becomes a part of the "reconciliation infidelity advice industry"'.
> 
> Tracy is witty and funny at times but her research, logic and reading comprehension is very off or incomplete at other times. It's satire. It's humor. I get it. Hopefully THAT helps people who are negotiating the path towards and through divorce but it's not researched based REAL expert help with the decision making process regarding whether a marriage is truly salvageable or not, nor how one would go about it. Overwhelming consistent messages of divorce now, people don't change, reconciliation is an illusion, your spouse is serial cheater doesn't make the statements fact. There are websites that say the earth is flat and if they chose to, they could control the comments to make it appear 1000's of people commenting around the world agreed with them. Doesn't make it a fact.


I completely disagree with you - she is not offensive and a lot of BSs appreciate her - you obviously don't - that is fine - but to call her blog a "hate blog" that is just nonsense FYI she has only been married twice - and is seemingly happily married to her second husband..your issues with her go way deeper than just disagreement - its obvious she gets to you...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I completely disagree with you - she is not offensive and a lot of BSs appreciate her - you obviously don't - that is fine - but to call her blog a "hate blog" that is just nonsense FYI she has only been married twice - and is seemingly happily married to her second husband..your issues with her go way deeper than just disagreement - its obvious she gets to you...


Wait. She's either married to husband number 3 right now or the one I think was her second husband, they cheater guy all her postings and website are about that she moved to rural Pennsylvania with after she abandoned her first husband in DC was just her boyfriend? 

I would be floored to learn that all that satirical hatred energy arose simple because a boyfriend cheated on her. It's called "dating" for a reason. There is no moral obligation to be faithful. Even a fiancee cheating is a lucky break, not something to base a writing career upon. It's not nice but it's not adultery. 

Really? Please tell me you are mistaken.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Wait. She's either married to husband number 3 right now or the one I think was her second husband, they cheater guy all her postings and website are about that she moved to rural Pennsylvania with after she abandoned her first husband in DC was just her boyfriend?
> 
> I would be floored to learn that all that satirical hatred energy arose simple because a boyfriend cheated on her. It's called "dating" for a reason. There is no moral obligation to be faithful. Even a fiancee cheating is a lucky break, not something to base a writing career upon. It's not nice but it's not adultery.
> 
> Really? Please tell me you are mistaken.


Her husband - possibly her second cheated on her but she is happily married now to a man who had been cheated on as well.... FYI she NEVER claims to be anying but an expert at being a "chump" as she puts it - you dont have to like her that is fine but many more people do...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I completely disagree with you - she is not offensive and a lot of BSs appreciate her - you obviously don't - that is fine - but to call her blog a "hate blog" that is just nonsense FYI she has only been married twice - and is seemingly happily married to her second husband..your issues with her go way deeper than just disagreement - its obvious she gets to you...


Wait. She's either married to husband number 3 right now or the one I think was her second husband, they cheater guy all her postings and website are about that she moved to rural Pennsylvania with after she abandoned her first husband in DC was just her boyfriend? 

I would be floored to learn that all that satirical hatred energy arose simple because a boyfriend cheated on her. It's called "dating" for a reason. There is no moral obligation to be faithful. Even a fiancee cheating is a lucky break, not something to base a writing career upon. It's not nice but it's not adultery. 

Really? Please tell me you are mistaken. 

Edited to ADD ~ lots of men appreciate Girls Gone Wild, doesn't make Joe Francis a great guy and every one of those men would be offended if they happened upon THEIR daughter being on one of those videos. It might be 100% his little girls fault but it would still offend him that Joe Francis exploited his little girl and permanently recorded and profited off of his little girls image and while making her {hopefully} most stupid youthful choices. Fortunately, she's not using real names or real images, but it's a similar concept. I do get it. I've made fun of the things waywards say and do too. I just don't try profit from it.


----------



## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your STBX has to WANT to change which takes lots of soul searching and at that point - the REALLY hard work begins. It looks like he doesn't want to change bad enough does he?


Sadly; no he doesn't want to change at all. I think in a way he does because he knows this is what would have given our marriage a chance, but the things he might have to work through is just too painful for him to look at. He would rather keep feelings on the surface and not dig too far down to examine what happened and how he could have made it better. Therefore it was time for me to stop being so loyal to what we had and see that all that was gone. And for me to try and move on of course.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Edited to ADD ~ lots of men appreciate Girls Gone Wild, doesn't make Joe Francis a great guy and every one of those men would be offended if they happened upon THEIR daughter being on one of those videos. It might be 100% his little girls fault but it would still offend him that Joe Francis exploited his little girl and permanently recorded and profited off of his little girls image and while making her {hopefully} most stupid youthful choices. Fortunately, she's not using real names or real images, but it's a similar concept. I do get it. I've made fun of the things waywards say and do too. I just don't try profit from it.


Your comparing chumplady supporting BSs in their time of darkness to girls gone wild...wow..just wow..look its ok you dont like her - but she is seen as valuable by many BSs


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Her husband - possibly her second cheated on her but she is happily married now to a man who had been cheated on as well.... FYI she NEVER claims to be anying but an expert at being a "chump" as she puts it - you dont have to like her that is fine but many more people do...


Correct, she is clear about it here:


About Chump Lady - ChumpLady.com


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

5Creed said:


> Sadly; no he doesn't want to change at all. I think in a way he does because he knows this is what would have given our marriage a chance, but the things he might have to work through is just too painful for him to look at. He would rather keep feelings on the surface and not dig too far down to examine what happened and how he could have made it better. Therefore it was time for me to stop being so loyal to what we had and see that all that was gone. And for me to try and move on of course.


All you can control is you - and becoming a better you. His punishment will be living with himself...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your comparing chumplady supporting BSs in their time of darkness to girls gone wild...wow..just wow..look its ok you dont like her - but she is seen as valuable by many BSs



She's not "supporting BS's in their time of darkness" ~ she's meeting with publicist and trying to get book deals based upon what she feels having found a yet unexploited market niche ~ angry left behind spouses who she profit off of by making fun of cheaters. 

It's one thing if she had any credentials at all and was writing books and article of true support to chumps ~~ guidance and self-help through the divorce process. But she's doing neither. She satires wayward spouses saying, writing and doing dumb predictable things, much of which can be found and read on forum websites or she ridicules the real experts and counselors that have spent their careers helping and saving marriages and families.

Her biggest transgression. Lying to her supporters that marriages can't and don't recover. I think she thinks lying to her entourage is a good idea ~ get them to give up hope sooner for their own good. She certainly wishes she didn't waste a year and a half of her life enduring 4 d~days trying to recover with her 2nd husband that she'd barely been married to a year. But there's just no way she actually believes recovery doesn't exist and that's just sad and hurtful that she lies to her audience simply to make them feel better about themselves and to keep them hooked on her infidelity complex sales plan {which is feed the anger, create and us versus them, criticize and denigrate anyone that doesn't agree with you, edit posts you don't like, get noticed by making bold and outrageous claims, any attention is good attention, accumulate devotees and send the minions out to give positive feedback, positive ratings and create linkbacks, find more revenue streams).

How does she justify it? Well, it seems she went to the reconciliation complex for help saving her marriage and she supposedly did everything they told her to do (which posting at SI, probably didn't tell her to do much of anything and she probably did what she wanted anyway but heck, why take responsibility for her own choices when she can blame others). So after a year and half and 4 ddays she turns around and blames the infidelity forums for her choice to stick around for that year and a half trying to save her doomed marriage like it's their fault and they are therefore just a bunch of exploiters trying to sell desperate betrayed spouse on their doomed recovery plan. So Tracy fancies herself the hero. She's going to tell the chumps posting on forums that they are really just wasting their time, energy and money trying to save their marriages and only SHE has the true answer so they should come listen to her and pay her instead of them even though she has absolutely no real expertise, been married 3 times and made a disaster of her relationship life trouncing around the country with her kids following husband 1, then 2 and then 3. 

btw, there's a private forum with most of this information and research {I don't have the time to read all this stuff} that indicates a fairly large group of Christian bs's agree with me so saying many bs's support her really isn't persuasive.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> She's not "supporting BS's in their time of darkness" ~ she's meeting with publicist and trying to get book deals based upon what she feels having found a yet unexploited market niche ~ angry left behind spouses who she profit off of by making fun of cheaters.
> 
> It's one thing if she had any credentials at all and was writing books and article of true support to chumps ~~ guidance and self-help through the divorce process. But she's doing neither. She satires wayward spouses saying, writing and doing dumb predictable things, much of which can be found and read on forum websites or she ridicules the real experts and counselors that have spent their careers helping and saving marriages and families.
> 
> ...


I get it you dont like her - and your assaults on her are personal now not just related to her content - she obviously gets to you and under your skin - you dont like her dont read her and dont read CL threads but she does help folks - maybe not in the way you think is proper - but hey thats your PERSONAL preference and another point not all BSs are Christian...and if you claim to be one cmmments like this "been married 3 times and made a disaster of her relationship life trouncing around the country with her kids following husband 1, then 2 and then 3. " dont help your case...im glad you are "recovered and happy" good for you - but not everybody wants to or can follow your path...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think Chumplady is correct in most of what she posts. She has been a help to me when I was at some low points in my life. I didn't come away with the idea that my ex was evil. I came away with the idea that I wasn't a complete failure for having loved someone who decided to be unfaithful. I came away with a feeling that my feelings of hurt and pain were justified. I came away with the realization that there were choices and my ex made the ones that were selfish and the most hurtful to me. 

I don't think that is wrong. 

I think she has a right to market herself and make as much as she can. I think we all try to make as much as we can. Seems like a non issue. 

She's still on my list of helpful blogs. I still get something out of her posts. How about you?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I get it you dont like her - and your assaults on her are personal now not just related to her content - she obviously gets to you and under your skin - you dont like her dont read her and dont read CL threads but she does help folks - maybe not in the way you think is proper - but hey thats your PERSONAL preference and another point not all BSs are Christian...and if you claim to be one cmmments like this "been married 3 times and made a disaster of her relationship life trouncing around the country with her kids following husband 1, then 2 and then 3. " dont help your case...im glad you are "recovered and happy" good for you - but not everybody wants to or can follow your path...




The facts I gave I believe she herself shared on her website but still many promote her because her satire soothes them.

You keep posting links to her website and promoting her as an excellent resource for betrayed spouses when she's not a resource at all, she's a humorist and charlatan. In order to be a valid resource, it must be well-grounded on principles or evidence; able to withstand criticism or objection, as an argument; sound. She has no program or principles, let alone evidence to support her whatever it is.{everybody should get divorced because it's awesome and cheaters suck} It's really just humour. It's just deconstructing sentences and expanding the thoughts with cartoon wayward thoughts and feelings. It's not a resource anymore than coyote wolf is a resource how not to catch a road runner in real life. To refer to her as a resource is offensive to real resources and the betrayed spouses that need real resources to navigate the minefield they find themselves in.

I expose her as a charlatan for free. 

She "assaults" for money.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I like feeling better after feeling like my world is ending. I think that's a great service and her personal experience is appreciated. I wish I was smart enough to start a blog that is so popular and helpful, but I don't hold it against her for being smarter than me.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> The facts I gave I believe she herself shared on her website but still many promote her because her satire soothes them.
> 
> You keep posting links to her website and promoting her as an excellent resource for betrayed spouses when she's not a resource at all, she's a humorist and charlatan. In order to be a valid resource, it must be well-grounded on principles or evidence; able to withstand criticism or objection, as an argument; sound. She has no program or principles, let alone evidence to support her whatever it is.{everybody should get divorced because it's awesome and cheaters suck} It's really just humour. It's just deconstructing sentences and expanding the thoughts with cartoon wayward thoughts and feelings. It's not a resource anymore than coyote wolf is a resource how not to catch a road runner in real life. To refer to her as a resource is offensive to real resources and the betrayed spouses that need real resources to navigate the minefield they find themselves in.
> 
> ...



This is the LAST time I am responding to you in this thread because we keeping going around in circles- your problems with her stem from YOU and not her - your name calling and personal attacks on her character are way out of line..if you dont like her stuff fine DONT read it - and the only thing you have exposed is yourself and your discomfort with views that challenge your own...I'm hitting the ignore button after this...


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I like feeling better after feeling like my world is ending. I think that's a great service and her personal experience is appreciated. I wish I was smart enough to start a blog that is so popular and helpful, but I don't hold it against her for being smarter than me.


Chumplady rubs insecure people the wrong way...some people like her some dont - I happen to like her columns and I know a lot of BSs do...I just hope more and more BSs discover her blog and her work continues to help them...for those that dont like her well there are plenty of other sites you can go to..


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Chumplady rubs insecure people the wrong way...some people like her some dont - I happen to like her columns and I know a lot of BSs do...I just hope more and more BSs discover her blog and her work continues to help them...for those that odnt like her well there are plenty of other sites you can go to..


The only way for them to find out if they agree with her is to go read her site. It's worth the time and I know there have been many here in the years I've been here who would agree with me.

Sometimes you need a little boost. She gives that in a straight forward manner without all the icing and whipped cream that cloud the issues. 

Hey some folks have to take their anger out on someone. It's easier than addressing their own issues.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The only way for them to find out if they agree with her is to go read her site. It's worth the time and I know there have been many here in the years I've been here who would agree with me.
> 
> Sometimes you need a little boost. She gives that in a straight forward manner without all the icing and whipped cream that cloud the issues.
> 
> Hey some folks have to take their anger out on someone. It's easier than addressing their own issues.


I concede she is not for everyone - not every writer or school of thought fits everyone - hence the variety - chumplady appeals to me and a lot of other folks - her writing helps a lot of people and thats a good thing not a bad thing....


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I concede she is not for everyone - not every writer or school of thought fits everyone - hence the variety - chumplady appeals to me and a lot of other folks - her writing helps a lot of people and thats a good thing not a bad thing....


I agree. I like her and think she should take pride in those who find her offputting. That means to me, she is doing her job well. It is tough to hear the straight truth with no sugar coating.


----------



## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

Hey Quality, sounds like you think you know a lot about me. 



> She's not "supporting BS's in their time of darkness" ~ she's meeting with publicist and trying to get book deals based upon what she feels having found a yet unexploited market niche ~ angry left behind spouses who she profit off of by making fun of cheaters.


Meeting with a publicist? No publicist, Quality. I have a publisher -- Hachette. And an agent. My evil machinations exploiting market niches paid off! 



> It's one thing if she had any credentials at all


Hey, I have a useless Masters degree in Southern African history!

My credentials are that I was chumped. And that I can write decently and draw cartoons.

I don't pretend to be anything other than a chump with a POV. Apparently my whole "leave a cheater" market niche resonates. Either that or I've got a FABULOUS publicist. 



> and was writing books and article of true support to chumps ~~ guidance and self-help through the divorce process. But she's doing neither. She satires wayward spouses saying, writing and doing dumb predictable things,


If cheaters would stop doing dumb and predictable things, there would be so much less to satirize. 



> much of which can be found and read on forum websites or she ridicules the real experts and counselors that have spent their careers helping and saving marriages and families.
> 
> Her biggest transgression. Lying to her supporters that marriages can't and don't recover.


Define "recover." Endure, yes. 

I'm not opposed to reconciliation. I just think it's exceedingly rare. And a lot of "experts" profit off of false hope. I created my site to be an alternative to the 99.9 percent of infidelity resources that over sell reconciliation, and blameshift fault to chumps. 



> I think she thinks lying to her entourage is a good idea ~ get them to give up hope sooner for their own good. She certainly wishes she didn't waste a year and a half of her life enduring 4 d~days trying to recover with her 2nd husband that she'd barely been married to a year.


I don't regret attempting reconciliation. I think most people who are betrayed try reconciliation and do so with an open, loving heart. I also think this makes people incredibly vulnerable -- financially, emotionally, and physically (STDs, etc.)

I do, however, regret FOUR D-Days. I was an epic chump. 

My marriage was brief because I had my D-Day 6 months into it. 



> But there's just no way she actually believes recovery doesn't exist and that's just sad and hurtful that she lies to her audience simply to make them feel better about themselves and to keep them hooked on her infidelity complex sales plan {which is feed the anger, create and us versus them, criticize and denigrate anyone that doesn't agree with you, edit posts you don't like, get noticed by making bold and outrageous claims, any attention is good attention, accumulate devotees and send the minions out to give positive feedback, positive ratings and create linkbacks, find more revenue streams).


Do tell -- what's my infidelity complex sales plan? Did my publicist dream something up? OMG. It must be my minions. 



> How does she justify it? Well, it seems she went to the reconciliation complex for help saving her marriage and she supposedly did everything they told her to do (which posting at SI, probably didn't tell her to do much of anything and she probably did what she wanted anyway but heck, why take responsibility for her own choices when she can blame others). So after a year and half and 4 ddays she turns around and blames the infidelity forums for her choice to stick around for that year and a half trying to save her doomed marriage like it's their fault and they are therefore just a bunch of exploiters trying to sell desperate betrayed spouse on their doomed recovery plan.


I certainly don't blame infidelity forums for my choice to stick around for 4 D-Days. I blame myself. And that hard-won "what not to do" experience is what informs Chump lady.

I don't have any hate for SI. They were a lifeline. The place is full of kind people who reached out to me in my darkest hours. However, they are a RECONCILIATION site, and IMO, they should advertise themselves as such. 

With much distance, I don't think the model of supporting "waywards" and supported "BSs" together is a good one. JMHO.



> So Tracy fancies herself the hero.


I fancy myself someone who can think critically.



> She's going to tell the chumps posting on forums that they are really just wasting their time, energy and money trying to save their marriages and only SHE has the true answer so they should come listen to her and pay her


They're paying me? 10 million page views -- damn, I should be rich by now. I'll have to talk to my minions about that. 



> instead of them even though she has absolutely no real expertise, been married 3 times and made a disaster of her relationship life trouncing around the country with her kids following husband 1, then 2 and then 3.


Sounds like you think you know me. I don't have "kids" -- I have one kid. And the fact that I was married and divorced before I met a cheater is not a secret. I've written about it. My first marriage (10 years) ended because my ex had untreated mental illness. Sad, awful, sucks for my kid. No one cheated. I left him and divorced. Years later, met the cheater. 

Very happily remarried now for 6 years to a fellow former chump. 



> btw, there's a private forum with most of this information and research {I don't have the time to read all this stuff} that indicates a fairly large group of Christian bs's agree with me so saying many bs's support her really isn't persuasive.


I'm not sure what the Christian thing has to do with anything. FWIW, I'm a preacher's kid (my father is a Methodist minister and supports the blog) and plenty of Christian bloggers read the site. (Divorce Minister is one good resource.)

The internet is a big place. You don't like my advice, or me, don't read my blog. But to get on a public forum and spread sh*t about me -- you don't seem terribly Christian.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I agree. I like her and think she should take pride in those who find her offputting. That means to me, she is doing her job well. It is tough to hear the straight truth with no sugar coating.


Getting back to this threads original point - I do think @chumplady raises a valid question - how to believe if your WS is truly changed or is just in CYA mode? It has to be awful to spend all your time dissecting the truthfulness of someones statements who vowed to love and be faithful to you. The one person who is supposed to have your back forsaking all others - stuck the knife in and twisted it - how do you trust what they are saying? how can you ever be comfortable taking what they say at face value ever again? Tough questions for the BS to grapple with. When the WS says it is not about you but my faults - The BS answer is yeah but the knife is still sticking out of MY back...


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@chumplady - thanks for dropping by - BTW GREAT article as usual...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I suppose the only way to know if they are telling the truth is to see if their actions align with their words. If they do for some time, it is probably okay to trust those types of things they say. That isn't even touching infidelity, but I think all trust is pretty much destroyed. 

The pain will go on for a long time. The scars will carry into other relationships, unless dealt with. I don't really think you can ever trust and not verify, ever again, with anyone.

I'd like to hear Chumplady's take on how she found herself able to trust again.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I suppose the only way to know if they are telling the truth is to see if their actions align with their words. If they do for some time, it is probably okay to trust those types of things they say. That isn't even touching infidelity, but I think all trust is pretty much destroyed.
> 
> The pain will go on for a long time. The scars will carry into other relationships, unless dealt with. I don't really think you can ever trust and not verify, ever again, with anyone.
> 
> I'd like to hear Chumplady's take on how she found herself able to trust again.


I think infidelity takes the rose colored glasses off about relationships for good - and that is not a bad thing...you realize trust is too precious to be given away without much thought...

I agree with @chumplady true R is rare - rarer than we talk about here - many Rs are more about endurance than real happiness...the hard facts are your WS betrayed you in a vile manner, enjoyed it while it was going on and in the case of a LTA repeatedly lied, deceived and diverted energy and resources from your home to their AP - all for ego kibbles. Hard to reconcile that with being truly happy now isnt it?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think infidelity takes the rose colored glasses off about relationships for good - and that is not a bad thing...you realize trust is too precious to be given away without much thought...
> 
> I agree with @chumplady true R is rare - rarer than we talk about here - many Rs are more about endurance than real happiness...the hard facts are your WS betrayed you in a vile manner, enjoyed it while it was going on and in the case of a LTA repeatedly lied, deceived and diverted energy and resources from your home to their AP - all for ego kibbles. Hard to reconcile that with being truly happy now isnt it?


I think I'm looking for a balance between trust and suspicion. It's too easy today to find a willing partner. 

True reconciliation is, I believe, rare. It is only possible for a LTA to happen if the unfaithful spouse has really no respect for you, or a complete misunderstanding of what their spouse believes in. 

When the former is the case, it would be nearly impossible to rebuild. 

When the latter is the case, I'm not sure it's worth working on with someone who is that narcissistic.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I think I'm looking for a balance between trust and suspicion. It's too easy today to find a willing partner.
> 
> True reconciliation is, I believe, rare. It is only possible for a LTA to happen if the unfaithful spouse has really no respect for you, or a complete misunderstanding of what their spouse believes in.
> 
> ...


I think one of the challenges a BS faces post dday is to find that balance between trust and suspicion in future relationships...that takes work..too much trust and you can end up in the same place you just left but too much suspicion will drive you crazy and any future partner away...its abut finding ones footing in their new reality...it can be done with work and perseverence but it takes time..

Agreed about LTAs and disrepect, all affairs show disresect but a LTA that goes on for years and years is really another animal all together.....when you betray for years I dont see how you ever fully rebuild even if you stay together - I mean the WS had a parallel marriage during that time - and repeatedly gave their AP what they should have been giving you...can you R and rebuild after a LTA possibly but I'm sure it is extremely rare and even if one does succeed those scars are never going away..ever...


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

I love the chump lady site. Chump lady has been a big source of strength for me through all this.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> I love the chump lady site. Chump lady has been a big source of strength for me through all this.


She is for a lot of people I think....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@LucasJackson - after reading your other thread this @chumplady article really applies to your STBXW..does @chumplady know waywards or what?


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

chumplady said:


> Hey Quality, sounds like you think you know a lot about me.
> 
> I only know what I've read. I'm willing to learn more so I can understand why you do what you do and try to get you to reconsider.
> 
> ...


 It's not "advice". Advice is guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative. You're not an authority or that knowledgeable considering your singular limited myopic POV and this just happened to you in what, 2012. You're just {in your own words} "a decent writer" and a "decent cartoonist". You also perform no evaluation "concerning prudent future action". It's just a conclusion that divorce is the best and reconciliation is "exceedingly rare" {which it isn't}. I'm sure you're a nice person who means well. Betrayal makes all a little overzealous to "help" the next person but zeal doesn't excuse the lack of discernment. I don't dislike you, I just dislike what you are doing ~~ FOR MONEY. As far as my Christianity, thanks for your judgment.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

> The internet is a big place. You don't like my advice, or me, don't read my blog.


This^ seems about right to me. Sour grapes at someone else's success?


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Chumplady was awesome for me. Helped me find strength and anger at a time when I really needed it. Anyone who doesn't like her site here's a newsflash. Nobody is forcing you to visit it.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> lots of men appreciate Girls Gone Wild, doesn't make Joe Francis a great guy and every one of those men would be offended if they happened upon THEIR daughter being on one of those videos. It might be 100% his little girls fault but it would still offend him that Joe Francis exploited his little girl and permanently recorded and profited off of his little girls image and while making her {hopefully} most stupid youthful choices. Fortunately, she's not using real names or real images, but it's a similar concept. I do get it. I've made fun of the things waywards say and do too. I just don't try profit from it.


Dude you just sound silly. 

Also remember if you want to go by the Bible which I am fine with there would be no reconciliation the cheater would be dead.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Chumplady rubs insecure people the wrong way...some people like her some dont - I happen to like her columns and I know a lot of BSs do...I just hope more and more BSs discover her blog and her work continues to help them...for those that dont like her well there are plenty of other sites you can go to..


Some people don't like the truth.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Some people don't like the truth.


 @chumplady calls it like she see it - no fluff - I get why it rubs some folks the wrong way - she challenges their beliefs - I think she provides a valuable perspective for the BS...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> She is for a lot of people I think....


I believe she was sent by God. It's her calling, you might even say ministry. Seriously.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I believe she was sent by God. It's her calling you might even say ministry. Seriously.


And she has never claimed to be a psychologist or anything of the sort - she clearly states who she is on her about me page....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Chumplady was awesome for me. Helped me find strength and anger at a time when I really needed it. Anyone who doesn't like her site here's a newsflash. Nobody is forcing you to visit it.


 @LucasJackson I think a lot of BS feel the way you do...and you are right - those hwo dont like her dont have to read her...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So why does there never seem to be talk about the fact that maybe a BS just thinks there love is worth more then someone who would just willingly give it away. To me that is the most healthiest of positions. Having my love is a privilege, I only give it once. I would never R, mainly for that reason. I will find someone else who deserves it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> So why does there never seem to be talk about the fact that maybe a BS just thinks there love is worth more then someone who would just willingly give it away. To me that is the most healthiest of positions. Having my love is a privilege, I only give it once. I would never R, mainly for that reason. I will find someone else who deserves it.


I never understood why a Bs is supposed to be happy and honored when a WS says "I never intended to leave you" or something akin to "I chose you" as if their presence is a prize worth winning...


----------



## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

@Quality
I have to say in quality's defence I completely understand what he is saying.

I am a newly betrayed and new to TAM. I came here for advice and support and to help me sort through my very wide range of emotions right now. 

WH and I are in the infancy stage of R. I was linked to this thread in a post I made and I can tell you reading the article set me into a severe state of anger at my WH and pretty much set back both of our attepts at R. I started reliving the entire ordeal blew up at WH and kicked him out of the house at 2:30 a.m. 

I don't know if our R will be successful or not, but I do know by reading things like CL It's putting me in a bad mental space.

Thank you @Quality for your opinion b/c it helped me see that the blog is just satire and opinion.

My emotional state is very fragile at the moment and whether or not someone else thinks we can get through it is irrelevant. I have to figure that out on my own. (With advice from others) but definetly not by someone saying it's completely pointless and hopeless.

Sent from my LG-K540 using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@peacefulHEART - that is fine - @chumplady is not for everyone but plent of BSs do find her perspective and advice useful...I wish you peace and happiness on your chosen path of R


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> @Quality
> I have to say in quality's defence I completely understand what he is saying.
> 
> I am a newly betrayed and new to TAM. I came here for advice and support and to help me sort through my very wide range of emotions right now.
> ...


Is CL putting you in a bad mental state or is it your own logical mind that is warning you that is?


----------



## peacefulHEART (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Is CL putting you in a bad mental state or is it your own logical mind that is warning you that is?


It is both, but to be fair to our attempts at R, I can't go into it thinking things are automatically doomed. Even after feeling like a chump myself and being duped and blindside, and even though I can surely relate to all the feelings and emotions of being betrayed. I gave a promise and commitment at attempting R. I want to see it through. If after we try and it doesn't work I'm sure I'll be CLs biggest fan, but to try and be one of the few who can successfully R, then I need to put those thoughts out of my mind. 

If I try and attempt R thinking he's never gonna change anyway, then why even try. I love my WH deeply. I want to give him a chance. I am not weak and I'm not an insecure door mat. If he blows his chance, well, then I go. 

Sent from my LG-K540 using Tapatalk


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Sour grapes at someone else's success?


I don't think CL has "sour grapes" because I recovered and she didn't. Her 2nd husband was a complete serial cheater that was cheating on her before they even married.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> Chumplady was awesome for me. Helped me find strength and anger at a time when I really needed it. Anyone who doesn't like her site here's a newsflash. Nobody is forcing you to visit it.


Welcome back BigLiam.

I'm NOT visiting her toxic website, you all are bringing it here, providing headline teasers and links. Does she pay you?

But when I did visit I was sure to pray for a hedge of protection before entering.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Some people don't like the truth.



Exactly. 

Some people surely don't.

and notice the complete lack of critical analysis or discussion.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

peacefulHEART said:


> @Quality
> I have to say in quality's defence I completely understand what he is saying.
> 
> I am a newly betrayed and new to TAM. I came here for advice and support and to help me sort through my very wide range of emotions right now.
> ...


You're welcome. She's got an army of supporters (just look at the Amazon comments) so it's both surprising and a relief to see the exact type of person I'd hope to protect from that website report back that full disclosure of it's intent helped. 

There is no such thing as "releasing anger". Venting only keeps you angry and perpetuates more angry. You remain stuck in a cycle of anger which is reflected by the fact her core contributors and disciples have remained there feeding the anger for so long. It just doesn't stop. Life is too short to be that angry for that long. Angry management involves recognizing when you start to get angry and what triggers it and stopping it. It'd be much easier if CL herself recognized this herself and shut it down but maybe, by shining a light on it here some will reconsider their participation and contributions to such hostility. 

Again, going to and reading a website designed to simply provide a place where those that are divorcing (by choice or otherwise) can make fun of waywards, write satire and vent and commiserate angrily about they're soon to be ex-spouse in a singular repetitive back slapping, my cheating ex is worse than yours frenzy isn't "advice" or a interesting and different POV and, like peaceful pointed out, it just stokes MORE anger and vitriol. 

It's not clever either. There's "kick them to curb" posters all over the internet for 20 years. Providing a "safe place" where abusive posters (most have been banned at all these forums multiple times) in a "us versus scum" mentality begging "so let's hear how terrible your spouse is" and "no one is going to tell you to not vent here because we love to hear about your misery" ~~~ please give us more angry content {and go posts some links back to queen chump or promote her book at amazon while you're at it} is just not something one should ever aspire to. Hate is tiring. 

Lead people to healthiness ~~~ not protracted and heightened anger.

Or just be funny without promoting your limited POV as promotable solid helpful legitimate "advice".


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Quality said:


> Welcome back BigLiam.
> 
> I'm NOT visiting her toxic website, you all are bringing it here, providing headline teasers and links. Does she pay you?
> 
> But when I did visit I was sure to pray for a hedge of protection before entering.


Nobody is forcing you to participate in this thread either. You can ignore it if it's not your bag. I ignore quite a few threads.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Nobody is forcing you to participate in this thread either. You can ignore it if it's not your bag. I ignore quite a few threads.


 @LucasJackson So do I - I dont agree with every school of thought but I'm glad they post to give a different perspective on things - if I dont like it or find the thread not useful I simply skip it - pretty simple...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @LucasJackson So do I - I dont agree with every school of thought but I'm glad they post to give a different perspective on things - if I dont like it or find the thread not useful I simply skip it - pretty simple...


But I'm not participating there, I'm participating here criticizing in a safe objective moderated method the website you keep promoting JUST LIKE YOU DO when you and your friends (and myself) criticize and critique SI, LoveShack, Hero's Spouse, DB, etc. Why is my participation and words here any different than the thread you and I both posted in "exposing" SI as horrible?

Here's something you recently posted on the SI thread?



Truthseeker1 4/6/2016 said:


> People who troll and play on the emotions of vulnerable people are real POS. It could very well be that you are right..


Yet you consistently support the postings of Arnold, BigLiam, Maxo, Lucas or whatever his name happens to be this week as well as the other trolls that make up "how to be a man and boot your wayward wife to the curb" threads "playing on the emotions of vulnerable people" with false stories. Combating what's perceived as "false hope" with "false stories" is a little hypocritical especially considering "hope" is actually REAL {people do recover all the time} whereas the stories are just 'false'. 


Listen. I do not dislike any of y'all. I might even agree with you more times than I don't. You, especially, seem to qualify your posts about waywards mostly limiting your criticism and skepticism to long term waywards. I myself find it pretty impossible to work with or "change" {help change} a LT-wayward spouse who pretended to be faithful to his/her spouse & to God over many years {it's thru the church so we only assist Christian couples}. I've found that they're wayward lifestyle and all that entails is just so engrained and rationalized that they're just never willing to allow themselves to be subjected to the level of accountability necessary to even begin the piecing process. A non-Christian coming to Christ maybe more hopeful but I haven't seen that yet. 

Being a person of character is a good thing but it's not something one has or doesn't have. You, me, anyone could mess up tomorrow and become deemed characterless or of lessor character than before. We could also do something incredible demonstrating upstanding character and be perceived as having boundless character. Our character is defined by our actions with the most recent actions being the most relevant. Who we are today might help predict who we are tomorrow but it isn't written in granite. Do better ~ become better. People can change. Anyone can do it.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

chumplady said:


> Hey Quality, sounds like you think you know a lot about me.


Sometimes I'm left with the impression that Quality keeps multiple binders full of posters' backgrounds and information.

He's like the NSA of infidelity forums.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Quality said:


> *There is no such thing as "releasing anger". Venting only keeps you angry and perpetuates more angry. *You remain stuck in a cycle of anger which is reflected by the fact her core contributors and disciples have remained there feeding the anger for so long.
> 
> Or just be funny without promoting your limited POV as promotable solid helpful legitimate "advice".


Since we are on the topic of "limited POV as promotable solid, helpful "advice".... I am objecting to your bolded statement above. There is no literature I am familiar with that supports your statement. Where is your data there is no such thing as "releasing anger"? Where is the data that venting keeps and perpetuates anger?

I'm familiar with the literature on dealing with repressed trauma that promotes releasing of emotions as a way of freeing up the ability for rational decision-making. I'm also familiar with the literature on stress and decision-making. Are you? (google quick, if you can, and have access to a university library!)

Is your opinion arm-chair or do you actually have any professional research to back up your very definite statements? I'm wondering if your criticism of CL is valid. She, at least, doesn't claim an expertise she doesn't have.


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Is your opinion arm-chair or do you actually have any professional research to back up your very definite statements? I'm wondering if your criticism of CL is valid. She, at least, doesn't claim an expertise she doesn't have.



The grammatical errors and misspellings in his posts lead me to believe there is no formal education on these subjects. I see it more as a cuckold who lashes out at anyone who had the strength to stand up for themselves and move on. Just my own arm-chair opinion. :wink2:


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Hate is tiring.



You must be exhausted.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

LucasJackson said:


> The grammatical errors and misspellings in his posts lead me to believe there is no formal education on these subjects. I see it more as a cuckold who lashes out at anyone who had the strength to stand up for themselves and move on. Just my own arm-chair opinion. :wink2:


It was a legitimate question. I don't make assumptions about people's backgrounds, though yes, it is usually easy to detect a poseur once they make a few posts. There is a style to professionals posting, even when they are not identifying themselves as such on the interwebs.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@sapientia @LucasJackson I have noticed reading other threads on other sites there is a group of BSs who do lash out at a BS for striking back in what they feel is a "too aggressive" or as they like to put it "abusive manner" I'm not talking physical abuse for example if the BS says cruel things in the light of finding out their spouse has been having a sexathon with their AP and the WS complains about all the nasty things they were called some BSs jump in saying how they never did that or some bullsh!t - it is a sight to behold...


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sapientia said:


> Since we are on the topic of "limited POV as promotable solid, helpful "advice".... I am objecting to your bolded statement above. There is no literature I am familiar with that supports your statement. Where is your data there is no such thing as "releasing anger"? Where is the data that venting keeps and perpetuates anger?
> 
> I'm familiar with the literature on dealing with repressed trauma that promotes releasing of emotions as a way of freeing up the ability for rational decision-making. I'm also familiar with the literature on stress and decision-making. Are you? (google quick, if you can, and have access to a university library!)
> 
> Is your opinion arm-chair or do you actually have any professional research to back up your very definite statements? I'm wondering if your criticism of CL is valid. She, at least, doesn't claim an expertise she doesn't have.



I'm not a professional and stated clearly I have only the expertise to know I'm not a real expert and I'm not "promoting" a POV for money. 

I appreciate the dialogue and serious inquiry. I'd read that venting doesn't actually "release anger" several times over the years and thought it fairly common knowledge. It seems like it would have been a pretty quick google check for yourself too.

This is not off the top of my head. This is just a summary of some of the things I quickly read.

Catharsis Theory is a has been around forever. It's the idea that expressing anger promotes a healthy release of otherwise pent up emotion {that could explode at any minute} and is therefore good for the psyche. Despite it's almost universal acceptance in modern culture as therapeutic, Catharsis Theory has been fairly widely and long ago debunked in practice. LINK You might see a yoga class beating drums and screaming in the woods but counselors won't do that.

{But psychology is a soft science so even if it's TRUE it's only effective as part of a therapeutic treatment plan executed by a trained psychiatrist/counselor. Simply expressing anger {like you see on Chumplady} isn't the goal of catharsis therapy ~~~ in such psychotherapy you are led to express emotions and anger AND THEN PROCESS IT in a healthy manner.}

What many have come to conclude is that venting ~ catharsis ~ actually perpetuates the problems by reinforcing negative responses to situations. Social catharsis even more so. When we include friends or whole forums of like minded, like situated and like 'angry' people in our rants, it simply reinforces our position all the more. You vent, they agree. They share a story in return and it reinforces your story. The result is even more ammunition for getting and staying angry while you deal with and dwell on your predicament, deal with difficult interpersonal relationship issues or just driving home from work. It makes you more mad. More hateful. More aggressive. More unhealthy. 


Some links: 

The Catharsis of Aggression: An Evaluation of a Hypothesis

Brad Bushman in Psychology Today "Anger Management: What Works and What Doesn't"


Esta Powell "Catharsis in Psychology and Beyond"


Maybe you can access this full study? 

Expressive Writing Can Impede Emotional Recovery Following Marital Separation

Abstract: Marital separation and divorce are common life events that increase risk for poor health outcomes, yet few intervention studies explore how to mitigate this increased risk. This study implemented an expressive writing (EW) intervention for adults who experienced a recent marital separation. Ninety participants (32 men) were randomly assigned to and completed one of three experimental writing tasks: traditional EW, a novel (narrative-based) type of EW, or control writing. Up to 9 months after this writing, participants who were judged to be actively engaged in a search for meaning concerning their separation reported significantly worse emotional outcomes when assigned to either EW condition relative to control writing. Within the control condition, those participants who were actively engaged in a search for meaning reported the lowest levels of separation-related disturbance. We discuss these results in terms of the factors that may limit and promote psychological recovery following marital separation.


 Cognitive Neoassociation Theory


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> The grammatical errors and misspellings in his posts lead me to believe there is no formal education on these subjects. I see it more as a cuckold who lashes out at anyone who had the strength to stand up for themselves and move on. Just my own arm-chair opinion. :wink2:


Nope. No formal education on these subjects just personal experience and lots of reading. 

Nice ad hominem attack but I'm constantly urging betrayed spouses to stand up for themselves and resolve their situations, sooner than later, one way or another. I'm no friend of the unrepentant wayward and have made many divorced betrayed friends over the years. 

Recovery isn't the goal, health is.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @sapientia @LucasJackson I have noticed reading other threads on other sites there is a group of BSs who do lash out at a BS for striking back in what they feel is a "too aggressive" or as they like to put it "abusive manner" I'm not talking physical abuse for example if the BS says cruel things in the light of finding out their spouse has been having a sexathon with their AP and the WS complains about all the nasty things they were called some BSs jump in saying how they never did that or some bullsh!t - it is a sight to behold...


That's not me. I'm more aggressive towards waywards if anything.

If I were helping someone plan out their confrontation, after they had accumulated their evidence, I might indicate that expressing such anger is counterproductive and unnecessary simply because when you get angry you essentially lose your mind and are unable to think rationally and there are land mines all over the place in such confrontations that can have substantial legal and financial consequences. 

The Bible actually gives us three rules for confrontation: 

Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to become angry (James 1:19).

For example, you "lose your mind" punching walls and calling her names and she calls the cops on you and has you removed from your marital home {whether you deserve to be or not} and then OM is free to sneak in your house and be around your kids while you live at the Howard Johnson one town over. Your custody fight is screwed and she's got all the leverage in the world to stick it to you financially as you desperately try to bargain for 40'''50% custody.

I completely understand many men DO lash out and I've never grilled a guy for doing so. Just encouraged him to be careful and 'do better' next time considering the consequences that could result. 

Do you consider such a necessary consequence or step to recovery?

Perhaps such anger indicates a passion and makes the wayward wife realize her husband really does care about her not unlike the schoolgirl that gets turned on by the schoolboy that gets in a punch-up for her honour?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Maybe an immature wife would think that. I think any with some maturity would be disappointed she could not really talk with him about why she did it. 

Then again, that inability to be able to communicate her real feelings and have him listen without reacting is probably part of why she had the affair in the first place.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Maybe an immature wife would think that. I think any with some maturity would be disappointed she could not really talk with him about why she did it.
> 
> Then again, that inability to be able to communicate her real feelings and have him listen without reacting is probably part of why she had the affair in the first place.


Was your fidelity really dependent on your husband's ability to listen to your real feelings without reacting or is that just a comforting afterthought?

Is your fidelity now still dependent on what your husband does or doesn't do?

Does your character fluctuate based upon the behavior of others?

If your spouse has an anger issue, deal with that, don't compound it by abandoning your own virtues. One doesn't cause the other, "in part" or otherwise and a guy who yells and screams upon confrontation is probably much more indicative of a guy that just got crushed than a guy that deserved it, in part, because he can't control his emotions upon just learning his wife committed adultery.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality said:


> Was your fidelity really dependent on your husband's ability to listen to your real feelings without reacting or is that just a comforting afterthought?
> 
> Is your fidelity now still dependent on what your husband does or doesn't do?
> 
> ...


Certainly our own characters have a great deal to do with our fidelity.

But there are a lot of people who were shocked to find out that they were capable of doing things they did not imagine under circumstances they did not anticipate.

And I think a man would be wiser to show his true feelings--his hurt and fear--than the anger that covers them.


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I believe there is a simple litmus test that can accurately predict how successful R will be for any couple. If the BS is of the opinion that the sexual betrayal "is just sex" and it's the emotional aspect that is the primary betrayal - that couple has a chance for a successful R. If it's the sex that is killing the BS and is the overwhelming aspect of the betrayal - that BS shouldn't waste time and precious emotional well-being trying to R. Divorce and a fresh start for BS & WS will prove to be the best choice. If they do stay together the BS will never find peace and will come to feel resentment and contempt for WS. A bad ending for both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

There was a great comment on ChumpLady page

Character = Action + Time

The mathematician in me thinks it should be multiplication or integration, but addition is simpler for a T-shirt.

Such a good counter to "I've changed".


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

drifter777 said:


> I believe there is a simple litmus test that can accurately predict how successful R will be for any couple. If the BS is of the opinion that the sexual betrayal "is just sex" and it's the emotional aspect that is the primary betrayal - that couple has a chance for a successful R. If it's the sex that is killing the BS and is the overwhelming aspect of the betrayal - that BS shouldn't waste time and precious emotional well-being trying to R. Divorce and a fresh start for BS & WS will prove to be the best choice. If they do stay together the BS will never find peace and will come to feel resentment and contempt for WS. A bad ending for both.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The more I read and the more I see - true R is a rare thing - its NEVER the same. I read more threads about spouses who stayed and are hurting 5,10 years or more down the road. Is their life good enough? I suppose but could it have been better had they got rid of the person sleeping next to them every night - most definitely. Most of us fear the unknown.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

NotEasy said:


> There was a great comment on ChumpLady page
> 
> Character = Action + Time
> 
> ...


Bingo - in light of dday anything a WS says is meaningless since they have been lying for awhile...so only time and consistent actions show a change of character...if you read some threads on other sites where WSs are allowed to roam free unchallenged you can see their impatience with the time thing - which shows its still about them and their needs..


----------



## fleek (Jul 20, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> The more I read and the more I see - true R is a rare thing - its NEVER the same. I read more threads about spouses who stayed and are hurting 5,10 years or more down the road. Is their life good enough? I suppose but could it have been better had they got rid of the person sleeping next to them every night - most definitely. Most of us fear the unknown.


I agree that true R is very, very, rare. I've been involved in it for a very long time and I'll post my story later. I am not the cheating spouse.

Whether or not R is "successful" is pretty much dependent upon how the cheater handles post discovery. If they ended the A on their own accord and owned up to it, better R outcome. If they don't blameshift, better R outcome. If they don't trickle truth, better R outcome. If they show immediate remorse, better R outcome. If they maintain no contact, better R outcome. 

There are some mitigating factors too. Longer term affairs are harder to overcome. The amount of gaslighting that was done. Sex in the marital bed or other outright FUs to the faithful spouse make things more difficult too. If there was a pregnancy from the A. Geez, this list could go on for quite a damn while. 

The sex thing bothers the hell out of me. It's not the main thing though. It's the notion that I wasn't valued. Cheating was worth the risk of losing me, our family, and all of the other fallout (reputation, finances, future grandkids, etc.). That stings a helluva lot worse than her banging some other dude. I guess I'm saying it's not just the sex that sucks, it's what the sex represents. It's the ultimate I don't give a f*ck about you from the person that's supposed to love, honor, and cherish you. That's the damn thing that's just about impossible to "get over". Toss religion in the mix and it gets worse IMO. Not only did the cheater devalue their spouse, they devalued the doctrine they have chosen to live their life by. What does that say about that person? 

The whole R thing really boils down to giving the cheater a pass. MC can improve communication, you can learn to deal with conflict better, you can relate to the other person's point of view better too. That doesn't do squat to fix the trauma a betrayed spouse has been through. Forums spout that folks need to work through the issues. No one can really quantify what that work is or if it is really authentic. We do know that cheaters are proven liars. We do know they can rationalize just about any behavior. Why would a faithful spouse trust that the change is authentic merely because it's been in place for some amount of time? Lying and deceiving because they wanted to cheat for 6 months or showing remorse and contrition for 6 months because they don't want both consequence barrels? That's impossible to answer. 

Chumplady's point of view is a bit more realistic. The folks that cheat aren't exactly they same folks that do any amount of self reflection, have deep empathy, or even basic consideration, for others. Their actions prove this. It's a huge emotional gamble for the faithful spouse to stay with a known cheater. Saying otherwise is just delusional. Chumplady's advice is specific and will get a person out of the pit of despair. The whole notion of file and move on with your life is terrific. It communicates a certain message. It clears the fog. It sets the tone for R if there is one. And best of all, it's not weak. The results of following the advice are what's important, not some meaningless alphabet credentials or a white collar around your neck.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

fleek said:


> I agree that true R is very, very, rare. I've been involved in it for a very long time and I'll post my story later. I am not the cheating spouse.
> 
> Whether or not R is "successful" is pretty much dependent upon how the cheater handles post discovery. If they ended the A on their own accord and owned up to it, better R outcome. If they don't blameshift, better R outcome. If they don't trickle truth, better R outcome. If they show immediate remorse, better R outcome. If they maintain no contact, better R outcome.
> 
> ...


 @fleek - great response! You make so many good points - I do think their are levels of infidelity - I know it ALL sucks - but an online EA<EA<ONS<Short term affair<LTA - that is how I rank them with a lot of mitigating factors like in the marital bed, OC, etc - the worse the betrayal the harder any form of R becomes - if someones spouse has an EA that is horrible but its worse if they were fvcking their AP fora few years on top of that isn't it?

I also agree R boils down to giving the cheater a pass in some form - sure they may feel bad, have to endure verbal thrashings, etc but in the end they got to keep their marriage, their family and their lives in tact - so yeah they did get a pass - especially if the cheater had a LTA - they got the ego kibbles, the fun sex and all the rest of it and in the end they are still sleeping at home comfortably in their marriage bed. The BS has to swallow that on some level to R, dont you think? *I've read threads where the BS complains that the the Ws is sleeping comfortably and the BS is up in agony and they look over at their WS with resentment that they can sleep like a baby after all they have done.*

I also agree that cheaters lack empathy - oh boy do they lack empathy. It always boggles my mind when a cheater is in shock at the fallout after dday and when they pull the bvll**** card - my cheating has nothing to do with you - no it doesnt but it still has wrecked my life. @chumplady gives a very realistic and grounded perspective - mainly to BSs your cheating spouse is not special but a run of the mill cheater - BSs need to realize that their WS is reading from the same playbook as millions of other cheaters. 

Even if one does R - the affair is a shadow cast upon the marriage forever. When a BS looks at their WS they know the depths they were willing to go to satisfy themselves at the expense of their family. Chumplady gives it to her readers unvarnished and encourages them to not be afraid. Which is why I really like her stuff.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Unless you married a virgin, "looking day after day at your [wife] who fvcked someone else" could be said for every husband.


Nope. That would accurately be describes as "someoneelse's girlfriend". "My wife" has a particular start date. There were even witnesses. You're off to a bad start.


> Plus affair sex is indecent, disgusting, degrading and revolting.


Are you serious? Despite forums full of posts glorying in the opposite. Why on earth would many millions the world over engage in long-term affairs if affair sex was as you describe? I do, however, understand why you and your wife have to believe this.


> It's like saying a raped spouse at least on some level "got to" have sex with someone esle and on some level liked it.


Nothing like it at all. The freedom of choice vs. being raped.


> Finally ~ 99.9% of people are, on some level, capable of rationalizing and justifying cheating.


Not true, of course. I do, however, understand why you and your wife have to believe this.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> .
> Are you serious? Despite forums full of posts glorying in the opposite. Why on earth would many millions the world over engage in long-term affairs if affair sex was as you describe? I do, however, understand why you and your wife have to believe this.


it always boggles my mind when the WS says the sex wasn't all that or they were so stressed about the affair the whole time - uh huh but you kept going back and fvcking your AP - couldn't have been too bad now could it? *I believe NO WS who claims the sex wasn't that great or they were not having a great time.* That is utter bullsh!t!!!


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> it always boggles my mind when the WS says the sex wasn't all that or they were so stressed about the affair the whole time - uh huh but you kept going back and fvcking your AP - couldn't have been too bad now could it? *I believe NO WS who claims the sex wasn't that great or they were not having a great time.* That is utter bullsh!t!!!


Look, there are things I did in my youth that, though I thought were a great laugh at the time, I now look back at them at think that perhaps they weren't the smartest thing. But they _were_ fun. I made great friends, some of whom I still have. I have fond memories of those times. Unreservedly.

So when I hear a (former) cheater tell us "I've Changed! The things I did in the affair disgust me", etc it comes across as trying too hard. Of course, you're saying that _now_. You have to say it if you want to save your relationship.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Look, there are things I did in my youth that, though I thought were a great laugh at the time, I now look back at them at think that perhaps they weren't the smartest thing. But they _were_ fun. I made great friends, some of whom I still have. I have fond memories of those times. Unreservedly.
> 
> So when I hear a (former) cheater tell us "I've Changed! The things I did in the affair disgust me", etc it comes across as trying too hard. Of course, you're saying that _now_. You have to say it if you want to save your relationship.


EXACTLY - to be blunt when a WS says they were disgusted by it now what are they supposed to say the orgasms were so intense that is why I kept going back? They very well might be disgusted but I think it is more about paying for their transgression that brings on these feelings. any spouse who had a brief affair or LTA who claims they didnt enjoy the sex and the thrill of it all is a liar. How many WSs do you think secretly harbor fond memories form the affair?


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> EXACTLY - to be blunt when a WS says they were disgusted by it now what are they supposed to say the orgasms were so intense that is why I kept going back? They very well might be disgusted but *I think it is more about paying for their transgression that brings on these feelings.* any spouse who had a brief affair or LTA who claims they didnt enjoy the sex and the thrill of it all is a liar. How many WSs do you think secretly harbor fond memories from the affair?


I think you're right. 
Or to look at it another way, can you recall an unremorseful cheater using the words that @Quality used - indecent, disgusting, degrading and revolting - when describing affair sex? 

No? Strange that.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> I think you're right.
> Or to look at it another way, can you recall an unremorseful cheater using the words that @Quality used - indecent, disgusting, degrading and revolting - when describing affair sex?
> 
> No? Strange that.


Because cheaters LIKE the feelings they get when they are cheating both mental and physical - the "remorseful" ones just wont be as honest about it as the unremorseful ones...any spouse who goes into an affair is having a good time on the way in and during their encounters - its paying the bill that is not the fun part...sex is fun add to it some kind of taboo element and it can become intoxicating...cheaters liked having their affair or they would not have kept going back to fvck their AP....


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Because cheaters LIKE the feelings they get when they are cheating both mental and physical - the "remorseful" ones just wont be as honest about it as the unremorseful ones...any spouse who goes into an affair is having a good time on the way in and during their encounters - its paying the bill that is not the fun part...sex is fun add to it some kind of taboo element and it can become intoxicating...cheaters liked having their affair or they would not have kept going back to fvck their AP....


Many stay or keep going back to an affair because of the illicit/naughtiness/thrill of it. The mental aspects of the affairs drive them more than the physical. You can read over and over in WS threads the soul mate silliness, etc etc.

The sex may be good, may be great, it could be completely average or be bad. The drug of affairs is the ego stroking much more than stroking body parts. At least in my opinion.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> Many stay or keep going back to an affair because of the illicit/naughtiness/thrill of it. The mental aspects of the affairs drive them more than the physical. You can read over and over in WS threads the soul mate silliness, etc etc.
> 
> The sex may be good, may be great, it could be completely average or be bad. The drug of affairs is the ego stroking much more than stroking body parts. At least in my opinion.


A lot of sexual encounters are heightened by what is going on between ones ears rather than ones legs..agree 100%..but they did enjoy it - any Ws who engaged in a brief or LTA was having a good time and i dont buy the bullsh!t oh it it was awful or i was so stressed etc - if you are arranging your life around fvcking someone else or fitting that in where you can you are not having a bad time and any BS who buys that line is deluding themselves...


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Quality said:


> Nope. No formal education on these subjects just personal experience and lots of reading.
> 
> Recovery isn't the goal, health is.


I'm not sure I understand the difference between recovery and health. I would have said they are on the same continuum but I agree with you about Health so perhaps my point is simply semantics.

Thanks for all those links, yes I do have access to most online journals and I had a quick scan of the papers. Very interesting. I could be quite critical of their conclusions, particularly when one paper says a technique works for post-partum but not for distressed marriages, so there is a problem to be resolved there, but in the end, I'm actually about Results. I'm not a professional in this area either, although I have a research background, so I'm a literature omnivore and a trained skeptic. The real answer, I suspect, is that a persons early background will have a strong influence on what kind of intervention is most successful for them. In other words, it's not about the specific situation they find themselves in (divorce, post-partum, job loss, PTST, etc.) that should dictate the type of intervention that will lead to recovery and health, but rather what kind of stress compensating mechanisms they were or were not exposed to in their development to adulthood.

That's my own hypothesis of course, which I don't have time to explore. Perhaps an aspiring grad student in psych can explore. Or perhaps they already have. In any case, thanks for your reply and the dialogue, which I found helpful.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> A lot of sexual encounters are heightened by what is going on between ones ears rather than ones legs...


Agreed, especially for EAs. This is the predictable progression, and why EAs are so dangerous and difficult to stop once started. Mental addiction. Emotional heroin.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sapientia said:


> Agreed, especially for EAs. This is the predictable progression, and why EAs are so dangerous and difficult to stop once started. Mental addiction. Emotional heroin.


I also think the chase, the seduction and all the stuff that goes on before the actual PIV sex is intoxicating for WSs..they are enjoying the high so to speak and anyone who tells me they did'y I question their sincerity...WSs dont keep going bac for more if they are not having a good time and enjoying themselves..I think that is difficult for betrayeds to swallow is that while you were at home your WSs was out having a party without once care you you or their family....


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I also think the chase, the seduction and all the stuff that goes on before the actual PIV sex is intoxicating for WSs..they are enjoying the high so to speak and anyone who tells me they did'y I question their sincerity...WSs dont keep going bac for more if they are not having a good time and enjoying themselves..I think that is difficult for betrayeds to swallow is that while you were at home your WSs was out having a party without once care you you or their family....


Yeah, this is why the whole question of why is so difficult for BS. I read on one of these boards where the guy had a voice recorder and his wife basically said to her friend, when she was suspected he was figuring it out, "I only wanted to have some fun". 

He proceeded to say for the rest of the thread he didn't understand why, she even started to say she didn't understand why. The truth was she said why in that convo, she didn't know she was being recorded. That was her honest reason. She wanted to have fun. She was selfish and she thought she could get away with it. 

That is a very hard thing to swallow, so the BS has to find a different reason because if they don't it means the person they are with could basically destroy, their lives, their kids lives, bring unimaginable pain to someone they profess they love, for some fun. 

Who in there right mind would want to be married to such a person, let alone be in the same room with them. When you see it for what is was they are monsters.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, this is why the whole question of why is so difficult for BS. I read on one of these boards where the guy had a voice recorder and his wife basically said to her friend, when she was suspected he was figuring it out, "I only wanted to have some fun".
> 
> He proceeded to say for the rest of the thread he didn't understand why, she even started to say she didn't understand why. The truth was she said why in that convo, she didn't know she was being recorded. That was her honest reason. She wanted to have fun. She was selfish and she thought she could get away with it.
> 
> ...


That is the part that is seldom discussed the "fun" aspect for the cheater - so when reconciling the BS has to swallow the cheater got to have their fun and now gets to keep their family..that is ahrd road to travel which is why I understand when a BS gives the cheater a taste of their own medicine..so much pain and detruction for some strange...

Did that guy kick his POS wife to the curb?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

So the person with no character or value when faced with the loss of everything says they changed? Don't they all say that? Why wouldn't anyone believe that? Even if you were to reconcile the only true way to see if someone has changed is to give them time to prove it.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Who in there right mind would want to be married to such a person, let alone be in the same room with them. When you see it for what is was they are monsters.


It's interesting to sit back watch the frenzied hate, anger and hyperbole unfold and escalate in front of you. 

Now they are monsters. :surprise:

It's interesting the strategies taken to shut down, dispute and contradict a happily recovered betrayed spouse. 

Part of the consequences of my wife choices {and my choice to recover and be open about it} are that not everyone is going to like you and people will say the most accursed things and that's fine. Y' all have a right to your opinion . 

I admire your attempts to betrayed spouse shame me and I understand why you all need to believe and self delude the way many of you do. 

I may come back later for some more specific responses but for now ~~

You CAN both enjoy something at the time and LATER be disgusted by it. It's like food poisoning after a delicious meal. To start ~ I didn't and don't NEED for my wife to be disgusted by it. It wasn't a requirement or even a concern of mine. Affair sex just is ~ disgusting, depraved, nasty, vulgar and whatever other adjectives you can think of. Quite truly, I'm a little surprised to see you anti-cheater posters celebrate it as so awesome. You'd think you were TOW posters the way you are aggrandizing it. It's literally the lowest moments of any adulterer's life ~ whether they think it's awesome or not at the time. 

What's the payoff for going on and on about how wonderful affair sex it? Is it meant to bother me and other recovering betrayed husbands? Are you attempting to get under my skin, so I, in particular, stop posting and bad-mouthing your high priestess or just leave this thread? Do you feel that carrying on about the sex for years on multiple forums will somehow encourage newly betrayed husband's to divorce because all they read is your chorus of "they got away with it and you'll never get over it ~ because we haven't"? 

Why does the notion that a repentant wayward may actually be disgusted, embarrassed and repulse by their own sinful behavior bother you guys so much? Does it threaten you're "angry place", where you go to stew on just how screwed over you are and how awful your wife {or ex-wife} is? 

Maybe the point is the more you shame recovered betrayed husband's the less of them that will stick around or dare to challenge your limited, hopeless, false POV? Because you read a lot of bad stories doesn't mean good stories and good outcomes don't exist, or are delusions ~~ it's just that most recovered betrayed husband's are too busy living their happy recovered lives rather than subjecting themselves to constant shaming and belittlement of them and their {slvt} wives and truly repentant wayward wives don't stand a chance. Frankly, the vitriol really isn't selling the happy divorced path to recovery well. 



Sap ~~ have you ever read about resiliency and the ACE score? When you mention "circumstances" and "stress compensating mechanisms they were exposed to in their youth", I wonder if you are thinking that those who overcame and endured many difficulties and obstacles are actually better equipped than those who learned or experienced nothing. I actually think it might be the opposite. For example, I'm a zero. I had very little stress in my youth and wasn't exposed to really any "stress compensating mechanisms" at all. I believe those with higher scores would struggle much more emotionally with recovery than I did even if they had learned and witnessed a lot. They are just more emotionally fragile. My wife is probably a 4 or 5 {I don't recall} and I can safely say if I was the one that committed adultery, we wouldn't be recovered today {and I know that's a common wayward bullarky thing that you guys can go on and on about and it's probably a chumplady "incredible" UBT rant ~ how crappy it is that they expect fidelity and wouldn't or couldn't recover ~ I'm still just glad it wasn't me}. I just ponder whether if resiliency theory is the inverse of what you stated or think? Here's another link ~ 

 https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/


Fleek ~ I can hardly wait for you to share your story. My first guess, seeing that you are located in Texas is that you're actually Tracy herself or her husband (who was a betrayed spouse himself) but I tend to believe a girl wrote that post as I don't think any of my Texan friends would use the word "Geez". I actually think chumplady IS the pit of despair that you only come out of when you leave. Certainly "chumps" have a reason and right to be upset, mad even, and the satire might make a nice distraction but selling {literally} the narrow POV, the lies + half-truths and the perpetual and escalating venting as "advice" is significantly overselling the scheme. Still ~~ Welcome to the discussion.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Quality said:


> It's interesting to sit back watch the frenzied hate, anger and hyperbole unfold and escalate in front of you.
> 
> Now they are monsters. :surprise:
> 
> ...


Dude that wasn't directed at you or you wife or anyone else. I was stating how I feel. I think cheaters in their moment of cheating are monsters. Doesn't mean that truly remorseful cheaters should one day be love again. 

Anyway what do you care what I think, I am just some anonymous poster on a marriage board. Seriously Quality what is the point of you reading and posting on this thread. You are not going to change most of our minds. It is obvious you are getting triggered. We disagree, that's fine. It's nothing personal. Also I don't like some people even if they never cheat so I don't know why you or your wife is worried about it. Jeshh.

---------------

Alright now that I have calmed down. Quality if you are going to R you have to do it because you want to and not worry about what others such as myself think. Maybe your marriage is great so who cares what I think right? Look I get what you are saying about despair but I don't' think you understand that for people like me and chumplady the light at the end of the tunnel is not getting back with your abuser. So why encourage it. I am glad it worked for you but for far too many it's just misery. 

Even you know what you wife did to you was horrendous. I'm glad she changed but that doesn't make what she did less horrendous. I think the point about the sex being fun is that sin is fun. Even sin at someone else's expense. Yes that is a hard thing to look at but lashing out at the people who point that out doesn't make it any less so. 

Honestly do you think maybe it makes you mad because it forces you to see your situation in a different light then you want to. If so I suggest you don't post on this board. Go post on SI generally those fokes think a lot more like you.

Finally I don't really hate anyone. But I hate what cheaters do because it is really one of the worst things a human being can do to another human being (one that love you I might add) and it all done for selfish reasons. There really is not much worse in this world.


----------



## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

BS are always wondering "What were they thinking?" 

They were thinking..."This feels good!!!" They cheat because it feels good. Cheaters do not think so much as they feel. And it's all about their feelings.

Next common question..."How could they do this to me?"

The WS is usually not even a thought to them when they are in the moment. Once they have orgasmed their thoughts turn to the WS....but only in the "how do I cover myself" aspect.

-Had sex with AP today........ shower right away (perhaps douche)
-Banged a guy w/o a condom.....have sex with the husband immediately in case of pregnancy. That way he will think the kid is his. Or run to the pharmacy for a Plan B pill. Or just hope you did not get knocked up.
-Oral sex....brush teeth and use half a bottle of mouthwash.

And of course Lie, Lie, Lie.

The BS serves as the inspiration for deception. But there is no actual thought for the BS. And thats a hard pill to swallow. That they just loved the feelings. Does not matter if it was the physical feelings, the emotional feeling, or both. And those feeling were priortized over the marriage and family. 

And to admit that it is all about the feelings and that you as the BS did not matter....most cannot be that honest. Becasue of they were that honest, most BS would walk. Hence the psychological navel gazing to find what "broke" in them. Much easier to blame FOO, lack of attention etc etc.


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

stillthinking said:


> BS are always wondering "What were they thinking?"
> 
> They were thinking..."This feels good!!!" They cheat because it feels good. Cheaters do not think so much as they feel. And it's all about their feelings.
> 
> ...


Actually, I read all that and say ~~ "yup", "duh" and "meh". 

My wife didn't have the affair thinking about me. She wasn't set out to hurt me and I didn't "inspire her to cheat" {despite some history rewriting to that effect back then}. However, it didn't just happen. She made deliberate incremental choices based upon her feelings that were horrendously destructive to her, me and our family.

Why exactly is that a "harder pill to swallow"? Seems if she had deliberately set out to have an affair to hurt me with little to no feelings involved that would be worse.

I didn't get hung up on either of those two questions. My wife likes to talk so knowing what she is thinking is rarely an issue and "how could she do this to me"? I was more shocked she did it to herself.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sometimes people can change.

Sometimes they can't.

Sometimes people make one mistake, sometimes they behave badly over a long period of time.

And why do people cheat?

There are a wide range of excuses and reasons.

One size does not fit all.

Some people can cope with the cheating of their spouse.

Some people cannot cope with the cheating of their spouse.

For some people their spouse even looking at another person is the cause of bitter recriminations and rage.

Others, however are far more tolerant.

People are different. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Sometimes people can change.
> 
> Sometimes they can't.
> 
> ...


Good post except one point - cheating is not a mistake - its a choice and NO the BS is not responsible for triggering that choice despite what some folks here might think...


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

stillthinking said:


> BS are always wondering "What were they thinking?"
> 
> They were thinking..."This feels good!!!" They cheat because it feels good. Cheaters do not think so much as they feel. And it's all about their feelings.
> 
> ...


I do believe cheaters do have a good time during the affair and could not give a sh!t about the well being of their spouse or their family during the affair. Lets be blunt upon discovery they just want to get away with it - either by walking or by hoping their BS gives them a pass. Ive read a case where the Ws is so in love and wants to help their BS through this but wont taking a fvcking polygraph because they dont believe in them -does that say remorse to you? See that is a case of mere words and not concrete actions - even if the poly makes the cheater uncomfortable they should do it if they are truly remorseful...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I do believe cheaters do have a good time during the affair and could not give a sh!t about the well being of their spouse or their family during the affair. Lets be blunt upon discovery they just want to get away with it - either by walking or by hoping their BS gives them a pass. Ive read a case where the Ws is so in love and wants to help their BS through this but wont taking a fvcking polygraph because they dont believe in them -does that say remorse to you? See that is a case of mere words and not concrete actions - even if the poly makes the cheater uncomfortable they should do it if they are truly remorseful...


It says fear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Quality said:


> Affair sex just is ~ disgusting, depraved, nasty, vulgar and whatever other adjectives you can think of. Quite truly, I'm a little surprised to see you anti-cheater posters celebrate it as so awesome.
> 
> What's the payoff for going on and on about how wonderful affair sex it? Is it meant to bother me and other recovering betrayed husbands?
> 
> Why does the notion that a repentant wayward may actually be disgusted, embarrassed and repulse by their own sinful behavior bother you guys so much? Does it threaten you're "angry place", where you go to stew on just how screwed over you are and how awful your wife {or ex-wife} is?


Great questions. My guess to your first question is they are trying to understand what made it so great. Or they need to believe it must have been so great in order to risk them/the marriage. The logical extension being that if it *wasn't* that great, then it is much more damaging to their ego. It's like being dumped for someone who is much more inferior -- egos are damaged and people want to understand why.

If, however, I'm understanding your personal situation correctly, you are saying there IS no logic of that kind involved. This is consistent with what I've read that affair partners are often LESS attractive/successful/etc. than the BS. My own personal guess is it's more to do with 1) opportunity and 2) perhaps that "less worthy" person doesn't evoke the same "pressure" that someone of the same caliber as the BS does. I don't know, I'm just making some objective guesses as cheating was never my experience. The real lesson for the BS is not to try to logic their way through the experience.




> Sap ~~ have you ever read about resiliency and the ACE score? When you mention "circumstances" and "stress compensating mechanisms they were exposed to in their youth", I wonder if you are thinking that those who overcame and endured many difficulties and obstacles are actually better equipped than those who learned or experienced nothing. I actually think it might be the opposite. For example, I'm a zero. I had very little stress in my youth and wasn't exposed to really any "stress compensating mechanisms" at all. I believe those with higher scores would struggle much more emotionally with recovery than I did even if they had learned and witnessed a lot. They are just more emotionally fragile. My wife is probably a 4 or 5 {I don't recall} and I can safely say if I was the one that committed adultery, we wouldn't be recovered today {and I know that's a common wayward bullarky thing that you guys can go on and on about and it's probably a chumplady "incredible" UBT rant ~ how crappy it is that they expect fidelity and wouldn't or couldn't recover ~ I'm still just glad it wasn't me}. I just ponder whether if resiliency theory is the inverse of what you stated or think? Here's another link ~
> 
> https://acestoohigh.com/got-your-ace-score/


Thanks for this. I haven't heard of this test. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment re: mechanisms for addressing stress and cheating recovery. I have my own opinion that people that DON'T cheat have more experience with delayed gratification. Similar but different. The old Walter Mischel experiment giving kids marshmallows and an extra one to those that could wait to eat it. I believe people who cheat don't have as much training (it's learned from parents) and this is why they are more likely to cheat when others don't. Among other reasons such as addiction tendency and possibly moral/religious upbringing. Your comment that you didn't experience much stress growing up is consistent with my hypothesis that, when presented with an opportunity than required self-control, combined with whatever other stressor you were experiencing, you couldn't achieve it. Sounds like the lesson was hammered home for you, so congrats. We're all on a path to improvement, whether BS, WS or other.

To be clear, I'm not judging you, just making an observation. Unlike the mob here on TAM, I believe marriage problems are never one-sided and betrayal comes in different forms. My POV isn't popular with the angry BS crowd, but I think that's in part b/c some at least know deep inside there is truth to their contribution to their marriage problems. I do believe that some people can be driven to cheat.

That said, I've been made aware there seems to be a difference in opinion between what's been called more "casual" or opportunistic cheating, and the cheating that occurs in long-time, dysfunctional relationships with both people contributing to various abusive behaviours. I have decades of experience with the latter and none with the former. I sympathize with dysfunction veterans like John, for example. If he posted one day he finally broke and cheated, I wouldn't judge him harshly based on his decades of experience in a zombie marriage.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> What's the payoff for going on and on about how wonderful affair sex it?


On and on as in telling new BS that the WS enjoyed themselves? I suppose it's a matter of making them aware that when the WS says they never enjoyed the sex or the affairs, as they sometimes will, it is a bunch of bologna. 

That kind of confession means less than most think. No one wants to see someone in a false reconciliation. That would be even more harmful than knowing the truth about the affair sex being pleasurable along with the attention and platitudes received from the AP.





> Why does the notion that a repentant wayward may actually be disgusted, embarrassed and repulse by their own sinful behavior bother you guys so much?


It's actually a bright spot for me, but the only way to be sure is for the BS to be vigilant and for the WS to show remorse through actions. Just saying they are disgusted by it seems quite unbelievable, since they lied throughout the affair. 




> Because you read a lot of bad stories doesn't mean good stories and good outcomes don't exist, or are delusions ~~ it's just that most recovered betrayed husband's are too busy living their happy recovered lives rather than subjecting themselves to constant shaming and belittlement of them and their {slvt} wives and truly repentant wayward wives don't stand a chance.


Good reconciliations exist. My own older brother went through tough times and reconciliation. Their marriage is not the same. He does not seem the lighthearted guy he was. He is much more serious. He has accepted his plight and is working to have the best marriage possible. Doesn't look anything like unicorns and rainbows, as you seem to want to paint it, but it is working for them. It is, however, difficult. I've talked with him.


Edit: I guess when you say recovered betrayed husbands are too busy living their happy lives to come here and be shamed, what you are actually saying is that you are not recovered? If so, you would not be here, right? This kind of stuff would roll off like water on a duck's back.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=588316


2ntnuf said:


> On and on as in telling new BS that the WS enjoyed themselves? I suppose it's a matter of making them aware that when the WS says they never enjoyed the sex or the affairs, as they sometimes will, it is a bunch of bologna.
> 
> That kind of confession means less than most think. No one wants to see someone in a false reconciliation. That would be even more harmful than knowing the truth about the affair sex being pleasurable along with the attention and platitudes received from the AP.
> 
> ...



Here you go here are 2 guys 15 and 30 years out. This is what SI passes for true reconciliation, you can tell that from all the responses about how hopeful these stories are. Now do these two men seem like they had happy marriages to you? They sure don't to me. Maybe it does to people who have awful marriage. But a good marriage is nothing like this. Do they sound happy about there choices or do they sound like victims powerless to change there own lives. I do not say this to criticizes them, I feel terrible for them. However I partly blame the people and advice to reconcile in the first place.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sokillme said:


> http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=588316
> 
> 
> Here you go here are 2 guys 15 and 30 years out. This is what SI passes for true reconciliation, you can tell that from all the responses about how hopeful these stories are. Now do these two men seem like they had happy marriages to you? They sure don't to me. Maybe it does to people who have awful marriage. But a good marriage is nothing like this. Do they sound happy about there choices or do they sound like victims powerless to change there own lives. I do not say this to criticizes them, I feel terrible for them. However I partly blame the people and advice to reconcile in the first place.


Well, there are those who realize what is left after divorce is more lonely and desperate than even a reconciled marriage with their possessions and retirement plans they worked all their lives to get.

That's a sad story. I just read the initial post. I assume that's enough to get the idea. Sucks to be him. I guess life is what his wife expected, because she stayed. At least one of them will be happy.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Good reconciliations exist. My own older brother went through tough times and reconciliation. Their marriage is not the same. He does not seem the lighthearted guy he was. He is much more serious. He has accepted his plight and is working to have the best marriage possible. Doesn't look anything like unicorns and rainbows, as you seem to want to paint it, but it is working for them. It is, however, difficult. I've talked with him.


Your brothers case is not uncommon - I know in my own life stories of infidelity - it is NEVER the same -why? Because the person who vowed to love and be faitfhul to you betrayed you in the most vile manner possible...do good reconciliations exist? I'm sure they do but they are rare in many cases the BS just had to eat their WS's sh!t sandwich and move on...very often the R means gthe WS is getting away with it on some level - that is the brutal truth - not a popular truth but a brutal truth - they lose nothing really - I've read threads where BSs talk about how their WS sleeps like a baby while they are up in agony - the WS doesnt get the mind movies and the other related damage - people here say life is not fair it isnt but a WS deserves consequences


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your brothers case is not uncommon - I know in my own life stories of infidelity - it is NEVER the same -why? Because the person who vowed to love and be faitfhul to you betrayed you in the most vile manner possible...do good reconciliations exist? I'm sure they do but they are rare in many cases the BS just had to eat their WS's sh!t sandwich and move on...very often the R means gthe WS is getting away with it on some level - that is the brutal truth - not a popular truth but a brutal truth - they lose nothing really - I've read threads where BSs talk about how their WS sleeps like a baby while they are up in agony - the WS doesnt get the mind movies and the other related damage - people here say life is not fair it isnt but a WS deserves consequences


I don't know. See what you think. I think, when a BS believes they have somehow caused the infidelity, it's harmful to the reconciliation. I think that because it puts them in fear that something they do that causes their FWS angst or hurt, might lead to another affair. 

Really, the only way to know for certain, other than blind faith like before the original infidelity, is to be vigilant and monitor things that go on. On one level, that makes for a more open and talkative relationship. On another, it means a great deal of fear for the rest of the BS marriage. They don't want to hurt like that ever again.

In reality, the infidelity was not the fault of the BS, but the problems within the marriage might have been. Usually, it's both that are at fault for the issues in the marriage.

In my opinion, it's only possible to hear these messages and know they aren't direct accusations by accepting the infidelity is not the BS fault, accepting that infidelity happens because of many reasons, like revenge, anger, loneliness, lack of sex within the marriage, disrespect, and many other things. None of those are legitimate reasons for infidelity, though.

Why? Because there are choices. It's just that simple. What those who say they had to be unfaithful are really telling everyone and don't know it is, I'm too immature or unintelligent to know there are choices. The only way I could feel better was by being unfaithful. 

Believe the only choice a WS had was to be unfaithful, and you fall into their web of delusional thinking that caused the choice to be unfaithful. There's a hell of a lot of fear there for the BS.

You can't love someone when you are afraid of what they'll do. How is that a good reconciliation?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't know. See what you think. I think, when a BS believes they have somehow caused the infidelity, it's harmful to the reconciliation. I think that because it puts them in fear that something they do that causes their FWS angst or hurt, might lead to another affair.
> 
> Really, the only way to know for certain, other than blind faith like before the original infidelity, is to be vigilant and monitor things that go on. On one level, that makes for a more open and talkative relationship. On another, it means a great deal of fear for the rest of the BS marriage. They don't want to hurt like that ever again.
> 
> ...


Solid post - there are those here who hammer the point that the affair didn't happen in a vacuum - but my counter point is quite often BOTH spouses were unhappy but only one cheated..more often than ot in my experience affairs happen in "normal' marriages...not perfect but not off the scale dysfunctional - WSs and their allies look for reasons to explain away why they cheated - there is no reason to cheat...the cheater frequently knew they had choices but the affair was the most enjoyable option...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Solid post - there are those here who hammer the point that the affair didn't happen in a vacuum - but my counter point is quite often BOTH spouses were unhappy but only one cheated..more often than ot in my experience affairs happen in "normal' marriages...not perfect but not off the scale dysfunctional - WSs and their allies look for reasons to explain away why they cheated - there is no reason to cheat...the cheater frequently knew they had choices but the affair was the most enjoyable option...


Check out page 4. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/342106-feeling-shaky.html

I feel like this member deserves better than what she is getting. Still, I'm sure her husband, even though I think he's a douche, is not happy either. 

My heart goes out to her. I hope she gets out before she does anything silly.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@2ntnuf why does your brother stya in his marriage? does he have any outlets that make him truly happy?


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Quality said:


> Affair sex just is ~ disgusting, depraved, nasty, vulgar and whatever other adjectives you can think of.


Here you go again.


> Quite truly, I'm a little surprised to see you anti-cheater posters celebrate it as so awesome. You'd think you were TOW posters the way you are aggrandizing it. It's literally the lowest moments of any adulterer's life ~ whether they think it's awesome or not at the time.


So, let me get this straight:

You, the BH, know with certainty that affair sex is "disgusting, depraved, nasty, vulgar". You're so certain you keep repeating this statement as fact.

OTOH, TOW (The Other Woman?) think the sex is fantastic (I won't go on). And they keep having affair sex, despite it being as you describe.

What am I missing here @Quality? What do you know about affair sex that the people having affairs have missed? And, how did you come upon this knowledge?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> @2ntnuf why does your brother stya in his marriage? does he have any outlets that make him truly happy?


Financial reasons, he would not have enough money after it's split, to afford to live the life he worked so hard for well over 30 years to achieve. 

Familial reasons, he's afraid of what it would do to his relationship with his daughters, whom he dearly loves. 

Also, he's afraid his relationship with his grandchildren would suffer. He just loves them, too. I've seen him with them. He turns into a big gooey sap. 

I imagine, since they live away from where he lives, he wouldn't be able to travel to see them. He wouldn't be able to afford it.


Does he have an outlet? He used to.

Target shooting, reloading, hunting, fishing, horseback riding, reading, and movies, to name a few. He used to have a beautiful camp that I did a great deal of work on, but he sold it due to expenditures in the marriage. 

I don't know how much of the above he actually does any more. I know he has dedicated much of his adult life to his Orthodox church where he is a deacon.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Financial reasons, he would not have enough money after it's split, to afford to live the life he worked so hard for well over 30 years to achieve.
> 
> Familial reasons, he's afraid of what it would do to his relationship with his daughters, whom he dearly loves.
> 
> ...


Is his wife remorseful? How long was her affair? with who?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Is his wife remorseful? How long was her affair? with who?


I don't think she is remorseful. It's more like she felt justified due to something that was his fault. She should have married a guy who became a millionaire, though my brother provided her with an education, his daughters with an education and weddings, a good middle to upper middle class lifestyle, opportunities to entertain friends, and many more things I only could dream of being able to afford. 

Don't know with whom or for how long. 

It was the only time I saw him cry in all my life. He was heartbroken and distraught. It was if he was trapped with no way to keep his self respect. He made the changes he needed to make and that's that.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think she is remorseful. It's more like she felt justified due to something that was his fault. She should have married a guy who became a millionaire, though my brother provided her with an education, his daughters with an education and weddings, a good middle to upper middle class lifestyle, opportunities to entertain friends, and many more things I only could dream of being able to afford.
> 
> Don't know with whom or for how long.
> 
> It was the only time I saw him cry in all my life. He was heartbroken and distraught. It was if he was trapped with no way to keep his self respect. He made the changes he needed to make and that's that.


Wow she sounds like a POS - what a sad case...do his daughters know? He should find outlets for himself if he is trapped..what changes did he have to make?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow she sounds like a POS - what a sad case...do his daughters know? He should find outlets for himself if he is trapped..what changes did he have to make?


Don't know if his daughters know, but I suspect the eldest knows. I think the younger sided with my brother. See what I mean about splitting up the family? He couldn't do that to his girls. 

I don't know exactly what changes were demanded. I use that term because it's how I understood what had to be done. Mostly how he met her needs and some other stuff she wanted him to change about himself to comply with her ideas of what would make her happy and want to stay in the marriage.

Truly, I've known her since I was like 9 years old? I never thought of her as a POS. She changed when she hit 40 something. Questioned him and her and all of her life and decisions she made and how she felt forced to live and do certain things. I don't think he ever forced her to do anything. Life did. Want to live a certain way and these are the things you have to do. I guess she felt she missed out on something? Probably his fault.  I know better. 

He had to work a ton of overtime to pay for college for the girls and their weddings and his wife's education while he just kept up with his responsibilities as a husband, father and provider and she stayed home, mostly.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Don't know if his daughters know, but I suspect the eldest knows. I think the younger sided with my brother. See what I mean about splitting up the family? He couldn't do that to his girls.
> 
> I don't know exactly what changes were demanded. I use that term because it's how I understood what had to be done. Mostly how he met her needs and some other stuff she wanted him to change about himself to comply with her ideas of what would make her happy and want to stay in the marriage.
> 
> ...


He should have left her leave - he sounds like her captive not her husband and that is a sad way to go through life...a cheaters selfishness is breathtaking to behold isnt it? what cheaters like your SIL deserve is to be alone..


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> He should have left her leave - he sounds like her captive not her husband and that is a sad way to go through life...a cheaters selfishness is breathtaking to behold isnt it? what cheaters like your SIL deserve is to be alone..


That doesn't happen very often. Most times, it's the husband who gets blamed, in the end. Just the way it is, I suppose. 

He would not ever have remarried. He may not have even dated. I remember talking to him. Scared the hell out of me. I was not able to sleep for some time, knowing the reality of how trapped he felt and truly was.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> That doesn't happen very often. Most times, it's the husband who gets blamed, in the end. Just the way it is, I suppose.
> 
> He would not ever have remarried. He may not have even dated. I remember talking to him. Scared the hell out of me. I was not able to sleep for some time, knowing the reality of how trapped he felt and truly was.


Your brother is trapped between his ears...and that is reallysad...he will look back and curse the day he gave into her blackmail...i dont even know him and it disturbs me...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Your brother is trapped between his ears...and that is reallysad...he will look back and curse the day he gave into her blackmail...i dont even know him and it disturbs me...


Well, honestly, I think that's why he is so deep into his religious beliefs. He relies on it for support and hope. It's okay with me, if that works for him.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Well, honestly, I think that's why he is so deep into his religious beliefs. He relies on it for support and hope. It's okay with me, if that works for him.


Im believer too but being that otherworldly can deny him some real joy right here..no one should live like he is living...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Im believer too but being that otherworldly can deny him some real joy right here..n o oen should live like he is living...


Maybe so, maybe so. I guess it's his life to live. I never could change his mind about much. He's 13 years my senior. I probably wouldn't listen to me either. :smile2:


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Maybe so, maybe so. I guess it's his life to live. I never could change his mind about much. He's 13 years my senior. I probably wouldn't listen to me either. :smile2:


Ir is his and it sounds like a sad life to live doesnt it?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Ir is his and it sounds like a sad life to live doesnt it?


Just as we choose whether or not to be faithful when the opportunities arise, at the same time we choose what life we want to live. 

He chose to stay and work it out. If he isn't satisfied, he can always leave and file for divorce. 

The thing is, we were raised by the example of sacrifice. Sacrificing ourselves for others. It's a great thing and a terrible vice at the same time. 

Life is funny, though. We can choose to find that happiness in the life we are living, if we have the courage. Maybe he has?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Just as we choose whether or not to be faithful when the opportunities arise, at the same time we choose what life we want to live.
> 
> He chose to stay and work it out. If he isn't satisfied, he can always leave and file for divorce.
> 
> ...


You know your brother I dont - what do you think? If you are thinking maybe yes or maybe no - that doesnt sound like he exudes happiness does it?


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> You know your brother I dont - what do you think? If you are thinking maybe yes or maybe no - that doesnt sound like he exudes happiness does it?


The very sad truth is, we do not speak any more, so I don't know. The failure of my second marriage put the last nail in the coffin of our relationship...and sadly the rest of my family, too, one more brother 11 years my senior, a sister 15 months older, and my beloved children, grandchildren, and my sister's six girls, whom I loved like my own. 

Life is what it is. We live the best we can, make choices, then die. It is a lonely existence for me, but I am fine.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> The very sad truth is, we do not speak any more, so I don't know. The failure of my second marriage put the last nail in the coffin of our relationship...and sadly the rest of my family, too, one more brother 11 years my senior, a sister 15 months older, and my beloved children, grandchildren, and my sister's six girls, whom I loved like my own.
> 
> Life is what it is. We live the best we can, make choices, then die. It is a lonely existence for me, but I am fine.


Why is that? Shouldn't your family be rallying around you? That makes no sense to me whatsoever..if my family memeber got a divorce I'm tyhere for them especially under your circumstances..


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> The thing is, we were raised by the example of sacrifice. Sacrificing ourselves for others. *It's a great thing and a terrible vice at the same time. *


Oh wow, yes that's a message that can take a lifetime or more to unwind...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Why is that? Shouldn't your family be rallying around you? That makes no sense to me whatsoever..if my family memeber got a divorce I'm tyhere for them especially under your circumstances..


Mum was put in a home. She didn't want to go. I was off work because of a really bad soft tissue damage and very small bone fracture of my foot. I was not able to help with my mum much, because I was a mess from the break up. 

My brother expected me to help, and I did, too. I just couldn't even think. I wanted to die. I kept it in as much as I could and took mum to church once in a while, when I wasn't going to cry in front of her and upset her. 

She had dementia and then a cancerous tumor which ultimately made her waste away over a couple of years. It was horrifying for me when added to the break up. I had no one, but was expected to help.

My brother ended up, at that time, with prostate cancer and was fighting for his own life with radioactive seeds implanted. Who could I talk with? My other brother stayed away mostly. My sister was yelling at me two days after I got out of the hospital for depression and who knows what. That was like three or four days after my wife left. 

I missed her birthday party and she was angry. I listened to her for an hour or more on the phone and couldn't think of why I wasn't there. Turns out, I was in the hospital that day. Yeah, I was messed up bad, real bad. 

My relationship with my children was strained anyway and we were just starting to get back together. It's best we don't or I'd have to deal with my first wife again. I don't want her in my life. She causes me all kinds of trouble with them. That's a 24 year old problem. 

I'm tired, man. I don't want any more. I'm done with all of that. 

I'll be fine. Who knows what life will bring? I had no clue I'd be where I am now. It is what it is.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Mum was put in a home. She didn't want to go. I was off work because of a really bad soft tissue damage and very small bone fracture of my foot. I was not able to help with my mum much, because I was a mess from the break up.
> 
> My brother expected me to help, and I did, too. I just couldn't even think. I wanted to die. I kept it in as much as I could and took mum to church once in a while, when I wasn't going to cry in front of her and upset her.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry man--I do hope you find happiness...I really do...life doesnt only throw us curves but throws pitches that hit us in the head sometimes..


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Financial reasons, he would not have enough money after it's split, to afford to live the life he worked so hard for well over 30 years to achieve.
> 
> Target shooting, reloading, hunting, fishing, horseback riding, reading, and movies, to name a few. He used to have a beautiful camp that I did a great deal of work on, but he sold it due to expenditures in the marriage.


Financial reasons 

While it's easy to tell people to "kick them to the curb" and build a new life but it often comes at a steep price. Lots of higher wage earners compromise standards once they talk to a lawyer. 

I know one guy who's wife has been having an affair for a few years now. He would lose his business, house, just about everything to divorce her. He knows about the affair and pretty much goes with the theory that it's cheaper to keep her. The OM has no intention of ever having a real relationship with her or marrying her. He just has perverted disgusting freakshow "non fun" sex with her > then sends her home more or less. 

She still thinks she is getting away with it all yet everyone knows. 

In my own situation, a few months before the meltdown we were traveling looking at different areas and thinking about buying a summer home which would eventually become our retirement home. I was on course to having our main home paid off in a couple years and being retired in 10 years. Now I'll be working till I'm dead.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> Financial reasons
> 
> While it's easy to tell people to "kick them to the curb" and build a new life but it often comes at a steep price. Lots of higher wage earners compromise standards once they talk to a lawyer.
> 
> ...


Does this guy have his own thing going on the side? He must not love her to be abel to live with that...

BTW our divorce laws suck she should be kicked ot the curb penniless...such bullsh!t..


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I'm sorry man--I do hope you find happiness...I really do...life doesnt only throw us curves but throws pitches that hit us in the head sometimes..


Thanks.

To add to all that, I had a neighbor lady living right beside me. She was about the age my dad would have been and I liked to talk with her. She brought me soup when I was ill. I took he food for Thanksgiving when she was not able to see her boys who were grown. 

She was 93? My dad has been gone since 1986. While all this was going on in my life, she was taken to a home. She died about three months into her stay there. I never knew. Another neighbor lady, whose television remote I was always messing with, you know how they always press the wrong button and reprogram the darn thing, stopped by and told me. 

She knew nothing either. My beloved neighbor who passed away was buried without even a notice to any of her lady friends she met at bingo once or twice a week. 

I was shocked once again, and critically sad. Sometimes life does suck really badly.

That was all the same year.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

honcho said:


> Financial reasons
> 
> While it's easy to tell people to "kick them to the curb" and build a new life but it often comes at a steep price. Lots of higher wage earners compromise standards once they talk to a lawyer.
> 
> ...


Yep, my brother made it so he could retire at 55. He did it, even while paying all that other shtuff. He would have been devastated, too. 

We choose what we feel is best to do. Each of us is different. I don't want a life with someone I can't trust. I can't love properly if I can't trust. I'd be pathetic in spirit and always on edge. That's no life for me. 

That's why I think they have to somewhat believe the delusion told them to reconcile. It's that or find peace and joy through other means. Cause it's tough to ever feel really safe again. Even when you get older, you'll feel unsafe, and like a failure, unless you find something else to devote yourself to doing. Cause it is no longer your wife who you are devoted to. 

Sure, you go through the motions and there is some kind of skewed love there, but it is not the same. Your joy comes from finding something new to devote yourself to and just letting the marriage roll on as much as possible. 

Ironically, that indifference is likely to cause the FWS to look at you in a different light. As a man with a plan and not as a relative, you will be more attractive and will likely get some of the attention you never understood why you weren't getting while you worked your fingers to the bone all those years. 

I don't have any answers. I got plenty of confusing thoughts.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I've got to go. Thanks for letting me vent Truthseeker. I feel a bit less weight on me.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Does this guy have his own thing going on the side? He must not love her to be abel to live with that...
> 
> BTW our divorce laws suck she should be kicked ot the curb penniless...such bullsh!t..


He doesn't love her. He might have something going on the side, if he is its discreet unlike his lovely bride.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

LucasJackson said:


> The grammatical errors and misspellings in his posts lead me to believe there is no formal education on these subjects. I see it more as a cuckold who lashes out at anyone who had the strength to stand up for themselves and move on. Just my own arm-chair opinion. :wink2:


I salute your endurance in making it through that verbal avalanche (to keep it clean). I stopped reading after seeing the first enormous post.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

NotEasy said:


> There was a great comment on ChumpLady page
> 
> Character = Action + Time
> 
> ...


Yes, I think "character = action integrated over time" would be good. Do you have a symbolic manipulation program that could create the t-shirt image?


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I've got to go. Thanks for letting me vent Truthseeker. I feel a bit less weight on me.


Come back to vent here ANYTIME you like - glad you feel a little less weight on you....


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

honcho said:


> He doesn't love her. He might have something going on the side, if he is its discreet unlike his lovely bride.


How could you love that thing? I wouldnt even sleep in the same bed wiht her - she is gross and filthy...


----------



## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

tech-novelist said:


> Yes, I think "character = action integrated over time" would be good. Do you have a symbolic manipulation program that could create the t-shirt image?


no software at present, but challenge accepted. 
I need to see this on a T shirt


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Im believer too but being that otherworldly can deny him some real joy right here..no one should live like he is living...


I am a believer and one of the reasons is because I want to believe that in the end there will be justice. One day your sister in-law will have to deal with what she did to your brother.


----------



## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

NotEasy said:


> no software at present, but challenge accepted.
> I need to see this on a T shirt



They can do it. They were selling similar shirts 20 years ago at the Coop. Also spreadshirt, just send them an email of what you want.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I am a believer and one of the reasons is because I want to believe that in the end there will be justice. One day your sister in-law will have to deal with what she did to your brother.


i thinks sometimes we need to administer our own justice. I dont believe in karma - what I believe in is bad character - so if a WS has a flawed character chances are they make lots of bad decisions and hit a wall - I dont believe some magical force smacks them in the back of the head.


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> i thinks sometimes we need to administer our own justice. I dont believe in karma - what I believe in is bad character - so if a WS has a flawed character chances are they make lots of bad decisions and hit a wall - I dont believe some magical force smacks them in the back of the head.


The karma bus is much more reliable if you're driving it.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> The karma bus is much more reliable if you're driving it.


Agreed...the "universe" is not going to step in either your actions or their continued destructive behavior will get to them not some mystical force...


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> The karma bus is much more reliable if you're driving it.


For me, I have found that just not getting involved or caring about what happens to my XW allows me to enjoy my life more. I was once sort of intent on seeing justice done, but now I just live my life and enjoy it. It really does not bother me if my XW thrives. 
I think that sociopaths often do, as they are not burdened with a conscience and can get away with a lot. Most never face consequences.


----------



## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Lardo said:


> For me, I have found that just not getting involved or caring about what happens to my XW allows me to enjoy my life more. I was once sort of intent on seeing justice done, but now I just live my life and enjoy it. It really does not bother me if my XW thrives.
> I think that sociopaths often do, as they are not burdened with a conscience and can get away with a lot. Most never face consequences.


For long term health you have to move on. Living well is the best revenge. In the immediate aftermath of cheating, however, scorched earth can be very satisfying. All I did was full on exposure and got both cheaters fired. I started a thread about it. I didn't care about justice per se, I wanted revenge. It felt really awesome too. I don't understand why people advise against it so often. :wink2:


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> For long term health you have to move on. Living well is the best revenge. In the immediate aftermath of cheating, however, scorched earth can be very satisfying. All I did was full on exposure and got both cheaters fired. I started a thread about it. I didn't care about justice per se, I wanted revenge. It felt really awesome too. I don't understand why people advise against it so often. :wink2:


In the long term living well is the best revenge but in the short temr the cheater shouldn't get to walk away without consequences if possible. Exposure can be a potent weapon - it destroys their reputation and in your case cost them their job. I read a case where the guy did not expose his WW or the OM and lived in agony for years and is now divorcing. I contend had he gone with nuclear exposure after dday and ruined the OMs reputation ( he was a small business owner) he would be in a better place today knowing he did something. I also think he might have been able to R if he had not felt so impotent by his lack fo reaction in the shadow of dday. He would still need IC since she fvcked the OM in their bed at home but I think knowing he got at least somfe fomr of justice would have helped. The cheater should never be allwed to walk away with their reputation. 

Indifference is key for long term health - indifference is the opposite of love not hate.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LucasJackson said:


> For long term health you have to move on. Living well is the best revenge. In the immediate aftermath of cheating, however, scorched earth can be very satisfying. All I did was full on exposure and got both cheaters fired. I started a thread about it. I didn't care about justice per se, I wanted revenge. It felt really awesome too. I don't understand why people advise against it so often. :wink2:


They desrved it. Good going.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Lardo said:


> They desrved it. Good going.


Agreed - I will never understand spouses who cover for the cheating spouse - they need to face the consequences - if that mean a forever ruined reputation then so be it - that is the price for their trangression...


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

Quality said:


> Why does the notion that a repentant wayward may actually be disgusted, embarrassed and repulse by their own sinful behavior bother you guys so much? Does it threaten you're "angry place", where you go to stew on just how screwed over you are and how awful your wife {or ex-wife} is?
> 
> Maybe the point is the more you shame recovered betrayed husband's the less of them that will stick around or dare to _*challenge your limited, hopeless, false POV?*_ Because you read a lot of bad stories doesn't mean good stories and good outcomes don't exist, or are delusions ~~ it's just that most recovered betrayed husband's are too busy living their happy recovered lives rather than subjecting themselves to constant shaming and belittlement of them and their {slvt} wives and truly repentant wayward wives don't stand a chance. Frankly, the vitriol really isn't selling the happy divorced path to recovery well.


For those who don't know, pragmatism is the willingness and ability to see things from another persons point of view. In the case of infidelity, this requires both the maturity to understand the value of doing this as well as enough healing to allow the perspective required. For my case, my wife and I were going through a very tough time in our marriage. We separated for a couple months and then decided to give things another try so I moved back and we both worked to patch things up. I thought things were going fine and thought she felt the same way and she said so many times. However she was planning to cheat on me while she was on a planned vacation with her parents. She was just shining me along as a backup plan in case she got her fill of screwing random guys and wanted to fully commit to our marriage. In that case she would have never told me about the cheating and pretended it never happened. From her perspective this made perfect sense. We were married as teenagers and she felt cheated out of the single life of a hot young woman. She, like most women, was disappointed in marriage as it relates to "'romance". After several years of marriage the reality of real life set in and it wasn't as much fun as it was being chased and desired by other men. She was inexperienced and immature and the grass looked so much greener outside of our marriage. So she cheated, fell in lust with a guy and told me she was divorcing me and I had to move out right now so she could move this other guy in. 

Now, when I pragmatically assess all of this there is a great deal of this story that I understand. The fact that she was a spoiled, immature brat who wanted to live on a pedestal is simply what it is. Really, wouldn't we all like to be worshiped and desired by members of the opposite sex? Of course the reality of life is that this only is true when men want to get into a woman's pants. Men will do or say whatever they thing they have to in order to bed her. I'd like to think that all women understand this but many, many never even consider this as a possibility. If she had merely flirted these guys for the ego-strokes but understood they only wanted sex and was satisfied with just teasing them. But having sex with them because she wanted the full experience is a betrayal I will never forgive. So, for me, my pragmatism helps me understand her POV but that doesn't mean I approve of her decisions and am willing to let it go as a "valuable life experience" as she believes. 

For many BH's it's the sexual component that is the center of the betrayal and the primary obstacle to reconciling. As much as they understand that they love her and want to move forward and repair things, the weight of the sexual betrayal is simply too much. They either fake the reconciliation and suffer silently or finally build up the courage to divorce her. 

You can judge BH's like those I describe here as having a " limited, hopeless, false POV" - but that shows your inability to be pragmatic. You either won't or can't see things from my perspective. I understand this as it takes a lot of life experience and maturity to be pragmatic and you may not be there yet. Whether you are or not I would suggest that you stop judging people who don't agree with you as being hopeless, limited and having a false POV. Like me, they may have looked at her side and understand it but reject her reasons and motivations as justification for cheating. They may consider the sex to be a total deal-breaker and simply extrapolate their experience to all other BHs. Rather than scream at other BH's to divorce they may simply be trying to push him to tackle the sexual component of her cheating before deciding to reconcile. If the sex is truly not a deal-breaker for a BH then continuing to harangue him about it is a waste of time for everyone. But you need to remember that when all you have is a hammer; everything looks like a nail. 

Try to be more pragmatic - even sympathetic - for BH's who are destroyed by the sexual infidelity and are still suffering from that crushing blow.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

You are a nice guy drifter. I would have said "quit being a hypocrite" and been done with it. I don't agree with it all, but very nice post.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

@drifter777 for a lot of men - even some who are forced to stay - there is no going back - no reset - the damage is permanent - WSs have a difficult time with this concept since they werent fvcking cheated on - no mind movies, no anxiety, etc....no matter how much they claim to "suffer" the Bs has had th sh!t kicked out of them and has it worse...great post - excellent points 

Ever read how whiny a WS is when the become a madhatter - infidelity hurts a hell of a lot more when you are on the receiving end - no ego kibbles, no orgasms, just pain...I read a case where a WS was complaining because their spouse might be having sex while they are separated and heading towards divorce - - it seems this WS discovered its not so much fun to be the one who is not shagging and they declared they wished their spouse would not be shagging so soon can you believe that one? I just shook my head..


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> For those who don't know, pragmatism is the willingness and ability to see things from another persons point of view.


That is not the definition of pragmatic or pragmatism.



Merriam-Webster said:


> *Pragmatic*: a reasonable and logical way of doing things or of thinking about problems that is based on dealing with specific situations instead of on ideas and theories.





Wikipedia said:


> *Pragmatism* as a philosophical tradition began in the United States around 1870.[1] Charles Sanders Peirce, generally considered to be its founder, later described it in his pragmatic maxim:
> Consider the practical effects of the objects of your conception. Then, your conception of those effects is the whole of your conception of the object.[2]
> Pragmatism rejects the idea that the function of thought is to describe, represent, or mirror reality.[3] Instead, pragmatists consider thought an instrument or tool for prediction, problem solving and action. Pragmatists contend that most philosophical topics—such as the nature of knowledge, language, concepts, meaning, belief, and science—are all best viewed in terms of their practical uses and successes. The philosophy of pragmatism “emphasizes the practical application of ideas by acting on them to actually test them in human experiences”.[4] Pragmatism focuses on a “changing universe rather than an unchanging one as the Idealists, Realists and Thomists had claimed”.[4]
> The word "pragmatism" as a piece of technical terminology in philosophy refers to a specific set of associated philosophical views originating in the late nineteenth-century. However, the phrase is often confused with "pragmatism" in the context of politics (which refers to politics or diplomacy based primarily on practical considerations, rather than ideological notions) *and with a non-technical use of "pragmatism" in ordinary contexts referring to dealing with matters in one's life realistically and in a way that is based on practical rather than abstract considerations. *





> Now, when I pragmatically assess all of this there is a great deal of this story that I understand. The fact that she was a spoiled, immature brat who wanted to live on a pedestal is simply what it is. Really, wouldn't we all like to be worshiped and desired by members of the opposite sex? Of course the reality of life is that this only is true when men want to get into a woman's pants. Men will do or say whatever they thing they have to in order to bed her. I'd like to think that all women understand this but many, many never even consider this as a possibility. If she had merely flirted these guys for the ego-strokes but understood they only wanted sex and was satisfied with just teasing them. But having sex with them because she wanted the full experience is a betrayal I will never forgive. So, for me, my pragmatism helps me understand her POV but that doesn't mean I approve of her decisions and am willing to let it go as a "valuable life experience" as she believes.
> 
> For many BH's it's the sexual component that is the center of the betrayal and the primary obstacle to reconciling. As much as they understand that they love her and want to move forward and repair things, the weight of the sexual betrayal is simply too much. They either fake the reconciliation and suffer silently or finally build up the courage to divorce her.


The above is in no way a "pragmatic assessment". It is a completely abstract discussion of your misogynistic ideas and theories about women and, more particularly, your wife and her motivations, thoughts and feelings 30 years ago. A more "practical" discussion of your situation would involve talking more about what you DID, not what you {or her} thought or felt. 



> You can judge BH's like those I describe here as having a " limited, hopeless, false POV" - but that shows your inability to be pragmatic. You either won't or can't see things from my perspective. I understand this as it takes a lot of life experience and maturity to be pragmatic and you may not be there yet.


The "BH's like those I describe here" is precisely why I "judge" (to discern) that the NON-pragmatic (or is it UN-pragmatic) "theory" of these over-angry chumpsters can be pragmatically (reasonably and logically) described as "limited". You've actually described just ONE wayward story. Your own. Sure we can extrapolate and theorize from each of our "limited" personal experiences that there appear to be many similarities between waywards and betrayed spouses and their behavior we read about on these forums that can be observed and, at times, predicted but it's still abstract and doesn't enable us to fully understand that others have beliefs, desires, plans, abilities, hopes, information, and intentions that may differ from our own.





> Whether you are or not I would suggest that you stop judging people who don't agree with you as being hopeless, limited and having a false POV.


A fallacy. Quoting out of context or a "contextomy". I did not "judge" people that {simply} don't agree with me as BEING hopeless, limited and having a false POV. You even BOLDED the sentence above.... 



> Maybe the point is the more you shame recovered betrayed husband's the less of them that will stick around or dare to challenge your limited, hopeless, false POV?


But I'll break it down for you anyway ~~~

The "your" is the betrayed spouses, and more specifically the persons {mostly men} on TAM who seem to promote CL and this notion that divorce is the only and best option in every situation and reconciliation doesn't exist (unicorn THEORY) 

The "limited" refers to the fact that neither Tracy, nor any of the persons/men to whom I'm referring are that experienced with adultery/infidelity outside of their own experience. That experience may be pertinent and relevant but it is NOT panoptic. In other words, it is certainly not broad enough to support (in a pragmatic ~~ reasonable and logically manner) the conclusions and "advice" they present as fact or legitimate. 

"hopeless" is not used in that sentence to describe the persons I'm referring to. Instead it is referring to the fact that chumpsters and the persons arguing on this and other threads like or tend to promote this "reconciliation is hopeless" agenda which, in the face of overwhelming statistics that reconciliation happens a lot, even on forums but especially in real life, is patently "false"; and, thus a "false POV" (point of view).



> Like me, they may have looked at her side and understand it but reject her reasons and motivations as justification for cheating.


My wife and I BOTH reject my wife's reasons and motivations as justification for cheating. Her choices were decidedly UN-pragmatic ~~ completely illogical and lacking reason. Conversely, my choice to forgive and reconcile, I feel, is much more logical and reasonable (pragmatic) than simply staying married and holding a 30 year grudge. 



> They may consider the sex to be a total deal-breaker and simply extrapolate their experience to all other BHs. Rather than scream at other BH's to divorce they may simply be trying to push him to tackle the sexual component of her cheating before deciding to reconcile. If the sex is truly not a deal-breaker for a BH then continuing to harangue him about it is a waste of time for everyone. But you need to remember that when all you have is a hammer; everything looks like a nail.


I'd like a betrayed spouse to have an array of reasonable, logical and honest opinions and POV's and I fully support his/her biblical {or otherwise} right to divorce due to adultery. I believe divorce to be the right choice in many situations but it is a choice and that choice includes choosing to reconcile or just choosing not to choose~~ yet. 



> Try to be more pragmatic - even sympathetic - for BH's who are destroyed by the sexual infidelity and are still suffering from that crushing blow.


That's pretty much exactly what I've been telling everyone (the chumpsters) to do. I feel it's very cruel, unreasonable and illogical to lie to betrayed husbands about their situations, pretend reconciliation is a hopeless pipe dream and poke & stoke {anger} their insecurities as they are "suffering from that crushing blow" in order to promote an agenda (anger at the wayward that is or was in their life and just anger in general) and to promote a toxic non-expert self-help guru's "let's all vent our anger over and over and everywhere" blog.

It's like maybe they all have mind-blindness. For those that don't know, "Mind-blindness" can be described as a cognitive disorder where an individual is unable to attribute mental states to the self and other. As a result of this disorder the individual may be unaware of others' mental states, or incapable in attributing beliefs and desires to others.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> it always boggles my mind when the WS says the sex wasn't all that or they were so stressed about the affair the whole time - uh huh but you kept going back and fvcking your AP - couldn't have been too bad now could it? *I believe NO WS who claims the sex wasn't that great or they were not having a great time.* That is utter bullsh!t!!!


I have to agree 1000% with this.

Whenever I read that nonsense posted by a BS - that their cheater told them the sex with their AP was 'boring' or they 'got sick and couldn't finish' or that sex with the AP wasn't as exciting as it is with their BS - my eyes roll so much I actually see the back of my head. :grin2: Sadly, most BSs *believe* that utter tripe and will post it victoriously, as though they won some kind of sexual contest against AP. But come on. What cheater is going to brag about how hot the sex with their AP was? Only a complete *idiot* would do that.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I wish I could hack SI and make all the thread point to her site.


Lol. The particular brand of KoolAid they serve up on SI would make most of the member's heads explode if you did that. :laugh:

The Chump Lady rocks, simply put.


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

@Quality - Your condescending drivel is pathetic. Please avoid responding to my posts and I'll afford you the same favor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

drifter777 said:


> @Quality - Your condescending drivel is pathetic.
> 
> Please avoid responding to my posts and I'll afford you the same favor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



So you can dish out condescension, but you can not take it.

I understand this as it takes a lot of life experience and maturity to admit you made an error, apologize and move forward continuing adult conversation. You may not be there yet. Whether you are or not I would suggest that you stop trying to lecture people using words, concepts and language you are unfamiliar with. 

You may also want to put me on ignore. I will post wherever and to whomever I choose, subject to the rules of the forum and authority of the moderators. You are not the boss of me. :moon:


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I have to agree 1000% with this.
> 
> Whenever I read that nonsense posted by a BS - that their cheater told them the sex with their AP was 'boring' or they 'got sick and couldn't finish' or that sex with the AP wasn't as exciting as it is with their BS - my eyes roll so much I actually see the back of my head. :grin2: Sadly, most BSs *believe* that utter tripe and will post it victoriously, as though they won some kind of sexual contest against AP. But come on. What cheater is going to brag about how hot the sex with their AP was? Only a complete *idiot* would do that.


*
Exactly!!! If a person has an affair that lasted any length of time - they enjoyed the sex on some level. They enjoyed the seduction, the sneaking around and the sleeping around - whenever a BS downplays this or does not believe that is fooling themselves! Whatever they might feel at the moment does not negate the fact that while they were having the affair they were having the time of their life. 

Also if the cheater chooses the BS -w hat have they won exactly? A spouse who is willing to betray them in the most vile way possible. Not much of a prize....*



She'sStillGotIt said:


> Lol. The particular brand of KoolAid they serve up on SI would make most of the member's heads explode if you did that. :laugh:
> 
> The Chump Lady rocks, simply put.


*SI..what a site, huh? You read posts there that involved multiple ddays, multiple AP and these folks are still talking themselves into reconciling years later. One poster wrote their spouse thought their marriage was so good that they thought their Bs would be pissed but forgive them if they got caught. Can you fvcking believe that one?!!!! Don't even get me started on the wayward section - that tends to bring out some serious wayward vipers....or the thread of people who found out years later...SMH

What is telling about that site is the amount of posts from BSs who are still struggling2,5, 10 years later - which convinced me R is rare when a person cheats...

SI is one sad place...*


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *
> Exactly!!! If a person has an affair that lasted any length of time - they enjoyed the sex on some level. They enjoyed the seduction, the sneaking around and the sleeping around - whenever a BS downplays this or does not believe that is fooling themselves! Whatever they might feel at the moment does not negate the fact that while they were having the affair they were having the time of their life. *


They sure were - until they were caught. :grin2: Then the sudden fake tears and ridiculous protests about how they were 'relentlessly' pursued by the affair partner until they finally gave in - but *hated* every minute of it - start flying*.* That's usually followed by the fake promises of "NC" and the swearing on their kids' lives that they'll never contact their affair partner again - until the next morning when they leave the house for work and can't call their AP *fast* enough.
*




Also if the cheater chooses the BS -w hat have they won exactly? A spouse who is willing to betray them in the most vile way possible. Not much of a prize....

Click to expand...

* Right? Then for the rest of eternity, the *lucky lucky* "chosen" BS gets to monitor every move their cheater makes. You see posts from those who have supposedly 'reconciled' all the TIME, posting about how their 'ex' cheater is up to no good again, or getting friendly with a co-worker or has downloaded some inappropriate app on their phone, etc. etc. etc., and the typical group-think answer is to have the cheater read some stupid affair self-help book or throw the cheater into more therapy. That's ALWAYS the magic answer for some cheater with itchy genitals - throw them in therapy and magically, they'll be right as rain again. LOL. Yeah, sure.

*



SI..what a site, huh? You read posts there that involved multiple ddays, multiple AP and these folks are still talking themselves into reconciling years later. One poster wrote their spouse thought their marriage was so good that they thought their Bs would be pissed but forgive them if they got caught. Can you fvcking believe that one?!!!! Don't even get me started on the wayward section - that tends to bring out some serious wayward vipers....or the thread of people who found out years later...SMH

Click to expand...

*Ain't that the truth? I actually get embarrassed for some of the more pitiful ones who just continue staying no matter how badly they were treated. And there are enough posters there to help force-feed the delusion to each other with the typical group-think mantra of "stay with your cheater at ALL costs, no matter how pitiful the situation is or how much you're being treated like crap. Swallow your pride - *again* - and stay. Swallow your dignity - *again* - and hold on to that cheater like grim death." *




What is telling about that site is the amount of posts from BSs who are still struggling2,5, 10 years later - which convinced me R is rare when a person cheats...
SI is one sad place...

Click to expand...

*It sure is. *Especially* when you have certain posters who desperately want to cling to their cheaters no matter *how* heinous the cheater behaved - and they're posting suicide threats every other week. All the members come galloping in on their white steeds to save the day and talk the poster off the ledge - AGAIN - until the *next* ridiculous "goodbye cruel world!" post and the cycle repeats itself. Only the truly desperate choose that ridiculous bullsh*t situation rather than admit it's time to get a divorce.

And that's why they don't like the ChumpLady. Because she doesn't promote desperation and swallowing your pride just to hang on to a cheating POS at all costs.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> They sure were - until they were caught. :grin2: Then the sudden fake tears and ridiculous protests about how they were 'relentlessly' pursued by the affair partner until they finally gave in - but *hated* every minute of it - start flying*.* That's usually followed by the fake promises of "NC" and the swearing on their kids' lives that they'll never contact their affair partner again - until the next morning when they leave the house for work and can't call their AP *fast* enough.
> *
> 
> People cheat because it is fun - bottom line...any cheater who claims otherwise is lying IMO.
> ...


*

@chumplady is fantastic - she gives the Bs a whole different perspective..love her stuff...*


----------

