# WW "needs to miss me," "doesn't know what she wants..."



## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi all. I have been reading up on lots of good info and advice on here, but each situation is unique and I've finally decided to ask for some advice. Here's a brief background of my situation.

Me 35 YO M, WW is 30

Long distance relationship for 4 years, then got married 6 years ago.

She is sole financial provider. I am in doctorate program.

WW has always been somewhat negative, emotionally, by default, and avoids dealing with problems. I have always supported her career choices and recreational needs to help her find happiness, which may have inadvertently reinforced this behavior. She attempted to OD on tylenol in high school, and also never dealt with that either. 

WW cheated on me a few times during long distance relationship. I forgave her, moved on. Never really resolved it. She also had a history of this in previous relationships. Her father passed away suddenly around the same time all this was going on, and I felt the need to be there for her.

Our marriage has been mostly good until about 2 months ago. Usual communication problems that should have been addressed long ago caused arguments from time-to-time, but we pushed through and when things are good they're great! I am in a doctorate program, and the work load has been hard on both of us. Instead of confronting the problem with me, she dealt with it by finding an enabler friend which opened the door for OM. (I do acknowledge my contribution to this, but don't accept it as an excuse.) I discovered the A, made some typical mistakes in handling it at first, but have been trying to follow plan A since. I do love her, despite all of the problems and want to stick to my vows. I believe she is suffering from a sickness, and want her to get better. I have been working on a Plan B, but it is tricky since she is the sole bread winner. I do have a small fund if I need to move out though. She has been reading directly from the WW script. Lying, secrets, blaming me, etc... We did try marriage counselling initially, which backfired due to A fog. She has been seeing the counselor on her own though. This Friday I was set on moving out, on my way out the door to find a place. She talked me out of it and left to stay at her mom's because she "needs to miss me," and "doesn't know what she wants." She doesn't want me to sign a 6 month lease and waste money. That's cool. I pulled the 180. Trying to reinforce her good actions, ignore the traps and start moving forward with my life. I'm not going to wait on her forever, but dang it's hard!!!

So today we went to another marriage therapist. Counselor started slow, getting mostly info about our relationship history, and we didn't get into the current situation yet. Basically discussed our different reasoning/communication styles (I'm analytical/confronter, she's an emotional rug sweeper), but we both left feeling like we have a lot still on our chests. Problem is, WW shut down immediately. She told me that she has officially ended A with OM (3rd time she has told me this), but she doesn't want to talk to me about it because "she can't communicate with me right now." (angry about the session) She is headed back to her mom's and still "doesn't know what she wants." I just said "Ok, hope this is helping," rubbed her shoulder and walked to my car when she told me that.

My take: She really does want to R but she still has feelings for OM, and is having a hard time ending A. I do believe she has been trying, but keeps relapsing. She is angry and upset that the therapy sessions do not support her blaming me for the A, and is not ready to accept responsibility. 

What do you all think? What's my next step? I have been trying to stay busy, have not been reaching out to her, not asking her what she's up to, but I don't want to push her away. I do reply to her texts, but just keep it short and simple. Still tell her "I love you too." Anything I SHOULD say to her right now? We aren't scheduled for another session for another week. What do I do in the mean time? Thanks!!!


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

ha-ha... "brief background." Sorry about that.


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## DarkHoly (Dec 18, 2012)

Let her go. Go total stone on her. Ignore her. 180. Tell her you are not plan B. WHEN she comes begging, continue to ignore her. 

I'm telling you. If you really care about her, if you really want her back, you have to do this. She's a selfish brat and she needs to grow up. Force her to grow.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

No kids.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

DarkHoly said:


> Let her go. Go total stone on her. Ignore her. 180. Tell her you are not plan B. WHEN she comes begging, continue to ignore her.
> 
> I'm telling you. If you really care about her, if you really want her back, you have to do this. She's a selfish brat and she needs to grow up. Force her to grow.


So total blackout? I guess it can't hurt at this point. If I don't I'll probably lose her anyway.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

She keeps cheating on you constantly and putting your health at risk for STD's and you keep forgiving her without any consequences whatsoever. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. What is wrong with this picture?

Your wife continues to disrespect and humiliate you in the worst possible way. If you do not respect yourself then who will?
My friend you are deluding yourself.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

It's so hard though. She just messaged me that she is sad that she has hurt me so much. I am dying to respond!


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

bryanp said:


> She keeps cheating on you constantly and putting your health at risk for STD's and you keep forgiving her without any consequences whatsoever. No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. What is wrong with this picture?
> 
> Your wife continues to disrespect and humiliate you in the worst possible way. If you do not respect yourself then who will?
> My friend you are deluding yourself.


Well, it has been like 10 years until this recent recurrence. I didn't deal with it properly the first time, but that's why I'm here now. I want to fix this. If not, I'll have to move along.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

If she has feelings for the OM she doesn’t want to R with you right now. She doesn’t need to miss you that is just part of the talk but don’t say anything game. It means nothing. She isn’t ready to deal with the issues. 

The more you tell her you love her and respond to texts etc the more she will know you are still there waiting. Till her mindset changes she has no reason to change anything. Work on yourself this week between sessions, unless she wants to discuss real issues with you during the week start pulling away from her. 

She is buying time, nothing more right now. She has a repeated pattern of this behavior and you need to start realizing that you don’t need to wait for her to decide what she wants but YOU need to decide what is best for you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Block her number. Go dark. Don't e-mail her, don't call her, don't send her smoke signals, don't send her messages by carrier pigeon....

Dark, dark, dark....fall off the face of the earth. Don't talk to her friends, dont talk to her family, don't talk to her cat. 

File for divorce tomorrow. Have her served at work in front of everyone. Let the Petition for Divorce do your talking for you (Unless your one of those poor Canadian nobs who has to wait a year...). 

Cut off her financing. Send your paycheck to a new bank account under your name only. Cut off all joint credit cards. Do it today!

If she wants separation... you give her separation. Total separation.

Dark... stealthy as a B-2.


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## tainted (Aug 16, 2013)

What do you know about the enabler friend and the OM ? They absolutely can not be in the picture if you're want a successful R. 

Expose to close friends and family that you think will support you. Then move forward with the 180.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Block her number. Go dark. Don't e-mail her, don't call her, don't send her smoke signals, don't send her messages by carrier pigeon....
> 
> Dark, dark, dark....fall off the face of the earth. Don't talk to her friends, dont talk to her family, don't talk to her cat.
> 
> ...


Can't file for divorce here, 1 year law. She has all the income, so can't cut her off. Can go dark though, if that's the answer.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

needsomedirection said:


> Can't file for divorce here, 1 year law. She has all the income, so can't cut her off. Can go dark though, if that's the answer.


Do what you can to put up as much of a barrier between you and her as possible. Only then can you stay empotionally calm and objective. Objectivity is the key to your success and healing. 

Here is the 180:

_What is 180 and how does it work?

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new betrayed person begin these behaviors as soon as possible. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive.

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that they are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? without them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment.

Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying!

Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you!
More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life.

Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." _


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

needsomedirection said:


> Well, it has been like 10 years until this recent recurrence. I didn't deal with it properly the first time, but that's why I'm here now. I want to fix this. If not, I'll have to move along.


How can you fix her? You can't! She needs to want to fix herself or this will continue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

tainted said:


> What do you know about the enabler friend and the OM ? They absolutely can not be in the picture if you're want a successful R.
> 
> Expose to close friends and family that you think will support you. Then move forward with the 180.


They are both well-known individuals to myself, her family and network of friends. I told WW's mom the entire story. I have talked to OM and he agreed to meet me, but has not come through on that. Not sure who else I can expose them to.

I'm not sure how to handle enabler. I can't keep WW from talking to her, but she does know that enabler is a barrier to R.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

*What is 180 and how does it work?

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new betrayed person begin these behaviors as soon as possible. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive.

So here's the list:

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

No frequent phone calls.

Don't point out "good points" in marriage.

Don't follow her/him around the house.

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.

Don't ask for reassurances.

Don't buy or give gifts.

Don't schedule dates together.

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that they are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? without them!

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment.

Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!

Don't be overly enthusiastic.

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying!

Listen and then listen some more!

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you!

More to the point, at present they just don't care!

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person.

This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life.

Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." *


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

needsomedirection said:


> It's so hard though. She just messaged me that she is sad that she has hurt me so much. I am dying to respond!


Don't. Trust me. Make her own it and do not try to fix anything at this point


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Going dark right now is your best answer whether you believe it or not. She has made her intentions perfectly clear with her actions. Talk is just that, talk. Either she wants the marriage or she doesn’t, it is pretty black and white. 

Until she is willing to work on the marriage she doesn’t. It is just that simple. The longer the situation goes on the less likely the outcome will be anything other than a divorce. You need to empower some sort of change and quit playing the game by her rules.


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## TheFlood117 (Mar 24, 2013)

Where to begin... The codependency is just reeking from you OP. 


First, you gotta look at this logically. No kids, Still relatively young, future looks fairly bright, getting educated and so on and so on. 

You gotta ask yourself. 

Is the juice worth the squeeze? 

Is taking her back and staying in this marriage really. REALLY. Worth it at all. 

Do the 180 hard. Expose it to everyone. 

File first. F.I.L.E. First. Go for alimony, you should get at least some. 


GET A JOB. I've known plenty of peeps getting their masters or PHD's that still work at least. AT LEAST part time. 

Quit being co-dependent and a doormat. 

She cheated multiple times before, and you were like. 

"oh cool babe, please can I have some more please. Please". 

Dafuq is up with that bro?? 

I mean, what's done is done. But... yeah, wow. 

You gotta change your whole perception and mentality here. 

180, expose and divorce, hit the gym, get a job, go get some and move on and never be like this again with another woman. 


Good luck, keep posting. Sorry you are here. This sucks. But you gotta roll with the punches and keep going.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Why do you want to meet the other man? He didn’t care enough to begin with to not get involved why would he want to chat with you now? He will never meet with you anyway. You do know how to handle the enabler. If you feel that person is toxic to your relationship that person needs to no longer be involved in your life.

If your wife chooses the friend over you, again you have your answer as to her intentions but your wife isn’t choosing to reconcile she just hasn’t asked for a divorce yet.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

needsomedirection said:


> no kids.


run!!! Gtfo!!!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

needsomedirection said:


> So total blackout? I guess it can't hurt at this point. If I don't I'll probably lose her anyway.


She has never ended it with the OM, she was lost to you long ago. Finish your doctorate program, if it isn't to much longer, go dark, get a job and then leave.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If she is so sad, why does she keep cheating on you? Cause she ain't.

Put the om and the toxic friend on cheaterville.com together. You will love the results................assuming you have a normal backbone.

They have an annoymous email feature to expose them to other people. You can post there in the third person if you want to avoid responsibility. Just tell the truth as you know it and do not exagerate.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

My take is that she hasn't ended the affair at all, and you are plan B. She wants to keep you around as security just in case, because she likes to eat cake.

The only hope you have in my opinion is to expose far and wide and do a complete 180. Make a life for yourself without her. 

This may shock her out of the thick fog she is in. Perhaps.

If you do get back together eventually, it can only be on condition that all the dirt under the rug is inspected, sifted through and thrown out.

This will be hard and YOU will have to be strong. She sounds like she is damaged to me and needs some serious IC.

Wishing you all the best.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

OP,

Who cares if the divorce is a 1 year process. Start it and wake her up. If she wants to R then have your list of conditions ready for her. In other words she deals with everything she has refused to deal with in IC and MC and if she is not willing to go to that length to get fixed then it is over and you will be that much further down the road. 

Oh, and what a previous poster said about co - dependency? Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

needsomedirection said:


> She has all the income, so can't cut her off.


Now that you explained it, I fully understand. You've basically have two choices my man. 1. Walk away, find another means to support yourself which, if its in the form of a job, will take away from your course work or 2. Ride it out until you finish the program. Think of it like this Dawg. Would you rather have a car that's been banged around in a few fender benders but still gets you where you want to go or would you rather have to depend on another, but a higher cost, mode of transportation.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks all. I have upped the exposure to her sister and aunt, who she has been relying on emotionally. Both of them had a moment of sudden clarity when they found out the truth. I can't really do anything about enabler right now. It's really WW's choice. She knows my stance on it. OM is a member of the golf club in our neighborhood, so I know him well. He is a sleaze-ball who has been divorced a few times and knows how to sweet-talk vulnerable women. I was considering going nuclear and telling all of the other members, but I'm going to hold onto that one for a while.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

TheFlood117 said:


> Where to begin... The codependency is just reeking from you OP.
> 
> 
> First, you gotta look at this logically. No kids, Still relatively young, future looks fairly bright, getting educated and so on and so on.
> ...


Get a shark lawyer don't tell her and have her served at work.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Why does she have all the income? Are you totally dependant on her? WTF?


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Why does she have all the income? Are you totally dependant on her? WTF?


because I am in a doctorate program. I am taking 15 classes this semester. I work during the summer breaks. Yes, I am dependent on her financially right now. I could quit school and find a crappy job, but that doesn't seem smart.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

needsomedirection said:


> because I am in a doctorate program. I am taking 15 classes this semester. I work during the summer breaks. Yes, I am dependent on her financially right now. I could quit school and find a crappy job, but that doesn't seem smart.


You failed her a long time ago then. 

Let me explain something to you....Mr. PhD.....

A woman does not want to support her man. She doesn't. 

A woman wants a man who takes care of her.....period. It is in a woman's DNA. 10,000 years of human evolution has programmed women to expect men to take care of them. 

This is why she lost interest in you. 

This is why she lost respect for you. 

You should have either forgone your PhD, or broken it off with her and gone and lived in a roach infested studio apartment and earned your PhD on your own, under your own steam.

I almost never blame the betrayed spouse, but this time I will say that you deserve 50% of the blame for this. Sorry brother.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> You failed her a long time ago then.
> 
> Let me explain something to you....Mr. PhD.....
> 
> ...


I left my job to for a profession that would provide us a common ground and much better future. It was a mutual decision, and we knew it would be difficult for a few years. I hear you though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

needsomedirection said:


> I left my job to for a profession that would provide us a common ground and much better future. It was a mutual decision, and we knew it would be difficult for a few years. I hear you though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most women like your wife mean well...at first. They start off taking up the slack with the best of intentions.

But those ancient drives are just too much. They ditch the guy they are supporting and go after the guy who offers to help them escape from their plight as breadwinners for their loser husbands.

She set you up and she set herself up.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Bandit,

I almost always agree with you and like your posts very much.

And I agree with your post that women in general lose respect for a man they have to carry and support.

But in cases like OP's, I think a WW who says and feels like that is completely full of crap and it is no excuse for their stupid selfishness.

The decision was MUTUAL to have him get a PhD for their future betterment.

Its not like the guy is being a deadbeat, worthless s**tbag carrying a class load like that.

He is obviously working very hard to achieve their MUTUALLY agreed upon goals.

The WW is just a selfish, worthless piece of trash if she justifies her s****y behavior along these lines in any way.

When he is busting his butt that hard, I think there is only one response to her selfishness period.

OP, tell your WW to go F herself and file for D ASAP.

Don't let her enjoy one second of the better life your PhD is going to bring you...she doesn't deserve it since she justifies being a unfaithful w**re because of your commitment to both of your futures.

I once knew a woman who supported her H through med school and then was highly (and rightfully) offended that he cheated on and dumped her for a younger woman once he had achieved the goals they both had been sacrificing for.

Your situation is just the mirror image of this lady's.

Unfortunately for her, HE had the degrees and profession when all was said and done.

At least you will come out better and stronger in the end.

Dump your worthless WW.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Whether you are pursuing a PhD or not does not change your situation today and looking back on the woulda, couldas will not help with the situation in the here and now. Im assuming your pursuing a PhD was a mutual decision.

I am also assuming that once your PhD is finished that you would most likely get a good paying job and the roles would change. Let’s face it you’re not going to quit school today, get a job and she will come running back. That isn’t realistic. 

Her blame deflecting and denial about her affair with the other man, her inability to deal with the situation and you is why you are here today. She feels right now that you aren’t going anywhere, she has freedom and can come back at anytime. This is the mindset that you must change. She needs to believe she now has something at risk, losing you and the marriage whether she brings in the money or not. 

You say where you live you need a year of separation before you can file, does anything need to be filed with the state to start the clock on the year?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wow!

This woman has cheated on you regularly and you have always accepted this and "forgiven" her (major rug sweeping).

You embark on a PhD program (while playing golf, of course) all being paid for by her just to make sure that any shred of respect she might have had for you is out the window!

What I am struggling with is why she married you in the first place - maybe she sees you as good husband material once your PhD program is complete or maybe even as a decent genetic pool for future children.

Any self respecting man would have left this "relationship/marriage" a long time ago.

You need to either leave now and recover your self respect (and don't try and find another wife to pay for your PhD) or be in an open marriage until you graduate.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> A woman wants a man who takes care of her.....period. It is in a woman's DNA. 10,000 years of human evolution has programmed women to expect men to take care of them.


This is true Bandit. 

However, once she made the decision with him to support their own long term future, she then owed it to him entirely to stay with that decision, as hard as it would have been for her to go against a natural feminine drive. 

OR, she could have let him know that it wasn't working for her, and she needed him to start working to help their relationship.

Some of you guys really do have to stop thinking that females are poor, helpless little princesses on pedestals who don't have the ovaries to think and function for themselves.

OP is not to blame for what she did. She is. Entirely.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

needsomedirection said:


> Long distance relationship for 4 years, then got married 6 years ago.
> WW has always been somewhat negative,
> - avoids dealing with problems.
> - I have always supported her career choices and recreational needs to help her find happiness
> ...


Gentlemen, I would happily financially support my man slogging away on a PhD in order to set us up for the rest of our lives. 3 years up against 30. It's as if this was an ongoing situation with OP being some loser too lazy to get a job. It was a conscious choice for a limited time with a longterm reward at the end. This subject is hijacking the thread IMO with OP even having to defend himself. 

OP, she cheated on you through your long-distance relationship, when she wasn't the breadwinner BTW. How many times did she cheat? She also cheated in prior relationships. So she's a confirmed serial cheater. VERY hard to fix. It's what they do when the relationship hits a bump as all relationships do.

Don't pathologise her behaviour. Sure she may have emotional issues, sure she has always been negative, sure she avoids dealing with problems (hence the affairs instead of trying to work it out) and sure she's a serial cheater. It does NOT mean she is mentally ill. There ain't no pill or counselling that will fix all that. 

Did it ever occur to you that she is not ill but selfish and spoilt? You said you always tried hard to make her happy. Was it hard work? Did she do the same?

Read TPZ's thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/180266-how-deal-confused-wife.html

Serve her with D papers and MEAN it. Use your savings to move out IMMEDIATELY. You don't have to do anything at all other than that. You don't have to say anything, or talk to her or answer her texts/emails. In fact you shouldn't in the aftermath. Let her sweat for a while and don't go rushing back into her arms. You are being Mr Nice Guy. She can come and go as she pleases and is calling all the shots. 
*If she wants you she'll come back. It's as simple as that.*
BUT, she will have to have changed overnight into a remorseful WW by doing NC, telling you the 100% truth, being transparent and making a HUGE effort to make all this up to you. Is anything less worth it? I can't see her doing that but maybe she will. 

You have got to do this to find out for yourself how she feels. 

Bottom line for me is though is that given all you said, the fact that you are still young, that you don't have kids and already have had that kind of history with this woman, I would walk away. Sorry.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Blow the sleazeball out of the water. Let everybody who knows him, and I mean everybody, let them know about his little hobby and who with. That goes for your wife's entire circle too. 
As for your WW ... don't talk to her until she shows up on your doorstep on her knees teary-eyed, blubbering, snot nosed and dry heaving. And then, only talk. No hugs. Stay cool and distant while she processes the depth of what she has wrought.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

All this "need to miss me", "doesn't know what she wants".....

This is code for she is still having an affair. So pretend she said to you "I still want to screw him as much as possible".

Counseling is a waste of time.

The plan for you is the same as it is for everyone else.

Emotionally disconnect yourself from her and build a life for yourself untethered by having to act like a husband to your wife. 

Make her affair less fun then her marriage to you would be. That's where exposure and divorce filing and all those things come into play.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The doctorate is a common cause that would benefit both Direction and his wife. If supporting Direction because an attraction killer, she should have talked about it, not started screw!ng to gold club POSOM.

Direction, you know that you have made mistakes in the past. Right now you need to go NC with your WW to wake her up. Is the OM the object of her heart. Removing him by putting him on Cheaterville is a first step. It's vulgar but effective.

Secondly, file for divorce so that the cake is taken away:



> An early recording of the phrase is in a letter on 14 March 1538 from Thomas, Duke of Norfolk to Thomas Cromwell, as *"a man can not have his cake and eate his cake"*.
> 
> The phrase occurs with the clauses reversed in John Heywood's "A dialogue Conteinyng the Nomber in Effect of All the Prouerbes in the Englishe Tongue" from 1546, as* "wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?"*. In John Davies' "Scourge of Folly" of 1611, the same order is used, as "A man cannot eat his cake and haue it stil."[10] In Jonathan Swift's 1738 farce "Polite Conversation", the character Lady Answerall says "she cannot eat her cake and have her cake."
> 
> Etc.


Once the cake is gone she will have an emotional shock. Will she fight to get your back? This uncertain. Will you want her back? Is she the right person with whom to combine your DNA.

In divorce she must pay you alimony. She will hate you for that but hey you could hate her for enjoying the lies and caresses of the golf dude


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

This is one of those rare cases where nothing OP did or failed to do would have made any difference. She was on the cheater train from the very beginning of the relationship and he showed her that he would tolerate it.

Now he continues to do so.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Stay with her for a year. As soon as you finish your PhD and get a job, get out. The last thing you want is to have kids with her. Don't bring an innocent child into this godawful mess. For your wife, the statement 'once a cheater, always a cheater' is definitely true. You, by nature are a fixer. But understand, you can't fix another human, especially a serial cheater. Hope you understand it's time to give up.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

OP, Speaking from experience very few serial cheaters ever really see "the light". In other words they just don't see infidelity the way everyone else does. In their minds if their spouse doesn't know what's the big deal? Its highly unlikely that she will ever change. She'll just be more careful. You're better off divorcing her and finding someone else.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

needsomedirection said:


> because I am in a doctorate program. I am taking 15 classes this semester. I work during the summer breaks. Yes, I am dependent on her financially right now. I could quit school and find a crappy job, but that doesn't seem smart.


Stay in the program; you'll have a bright future with or without her.

Any possibilities for a paid GA position? Living on campus?

Talk to your thesis committee/advisor(s). Let them know what's going on at least in general.

Talk to your lawyer about temporary spousal support.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you tell her mom she was cheating?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Fifteen classes or 15 credits?


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

OP,

I agree with everyone in that you need to detach from her, implement the 180, and at some point soon, file for divorce. That's how you take control of this situation after the mistakes you've made.

But the most important thing you need to do right now is to formulate your exit strategy. Be smart. Talk to an attorney first and then sit down and map it out.

It needs to include contingencies; for what you can afford on your own, given X salary, figuring out time for class work vs. a full or part time job, possible family assistance for housing, etc. It may include using separation time to your best advantage to prepare. It may include manipulating that separation time. And most important; what direction will you go if she completely turns around and demonstrates remorse.

You sound like an intelligent guy. You are the one that knows all these variables.

The advice you've been given is solid, but you don't have to cut off your nose to spite your face.

Edit: By the way, I agree with the other poster. "I need time to miss you" is classic cheater's code for - I need time to explore my other option - i.e. continue the affair.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

needsomedirection said:


> I was considering going nuclear and telling all of the other members, but I'm going to hold onto that one for a while.


 Why? Look. This guy is screwing around with your wife. He's the reason she's over at Mumsy's house and you home alone. Granted, it takes two to make an affair and your wife is one and he's the second so why do you want to wait.?

If it was me, I wouldn't have fired a warning shot over his bow and talked to him, I would have gone for the throat and hung his ass out to dry. All your doing is giving the guy more reason to have his way with your wife.

Where does your MIL live now and how do you know that she moved out just so she can see this guy without you knowing about it. 

Your first mistake was turning a blind eye and a deaf ear when she cheated on you the first time before you married her. That should have given you a preview of things to come in the future and here you are now with the same problem except your now married to her.

She knows by now that your a forgiving guy and will roll over and play dead for her benefit so maybe it's time you wake up and cut your loses.

If your going for a PHD, to her the end result of you getting a doctorate means a real good income in the future and a chance to cash in when the time is right because in most states, it doesn't mean crap in divorce court if there is cheating. The judge wants to make it as easy as he could so he just cuts everything down the middle and the party with the lesser income gets subsidized by the party with the higher income. Win win for her. Lose lose for you so do the math, cut your loses and keep your income when you get your PHD.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

First, figure out what inside you allowed someone to walk all over you for years.

Second, cut all legal ties with this woman well before you land your PHD related career.

Even if your wife started living at the foot of the cross today, what she has already done will haunt you for the rest of your life.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

Yes.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been at school and then went to the doctor's office to get checked for STi's and something to help me get to sleep at night. (Just temporary, not a solution, I know.) I am going to see a counselor alone tomorrow. Last night I told WW she would no longer be using me as a Plan B, and that I was done communicating with her until she was ready to be open, honest and talk about things in a healthy way. She has messaged me some noise throughout the day, but I have been ignoring her all day. I still feel like crap, but it's nice to feel like I'm taking some control of the situation. Thanks for all of the opinions! I appreciate them all.



turnera said:


> Did you tell her mom she was cheating?


 YES! and her sister and aunt as well.



GTdad said:


> Any possibilities for a paid GA position? Living on campus?
> 
> Talk to your thesis committee/advisor(s). Let them know what's going on at least in general.
> 
> Talk to your lawyer about temporary spousal support.


I am considering all of these.



LongWalk said:


> Fifteen classes or 15 credits?


 15 credits... haha! No. 15 modules. It's not like undergrad. I leave the house at 7:00 - 8:00, get home around 5:30, eat dinner, study from 7:00 - 10:00. Repeat. I get some down time on the weekends.



badmemory said:


> OP,
> 
> I agree with everyone in that you need to detach from her, implement the 180, and at some point soon, file for divorce. That's how you take control of this situation after the mistakes you've made.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I hear all of this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Psychologically speaking, the greater your life becomes without her, the more interested she will be in you (typically). Unless she's already done with you. Then you might as well move on anyway.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Psychologically speaking, the greater your life becomes without her, the more interested she will be in you (typically). Unless she's already done with you. Then you might as well move on anyway.


This is exactly what I am beginning to realize. I can't choose for her. Either she sees that she has messed-up and wants me back, or she realizes that she really is done with me. Regardless, I have to start moving forward without her. It is my choice whether to take her back or not. I can say it, just wish it was easier to DO it. I guess that's a start.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

I wish you luck. It may be hard to cut her out of your heart, but she is a cancer to you. NEVER take her back, you will regret it. One day you will wake up and wonder, "what the hell was I thinking?" That will happen whether you take her back or not. If you take her back, it will be with a feeling of sadness and realization that you ruined your life for the company of woman that does not deserve you. On the other hand, it could be with a sigh of relief as you realize how close you came to getting back with her.

Hoping she realizes what she lost out on is like hoping a thief decides to come back and double check your house in case they missed something! Once they go, bolt the door.

Keep the door closed, suffer a little, cry, then tell her to move away from your door, if she returns, so some deserving person can enter. No one likes an amputation, but if you want to live, you gotta do it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Direction,

Your response to the advice you have gotten has been good. You are able to see the logic and that will help you since the dynamics of relationships are predictable.

The person who wants the relationship least has, at least for a period of time, more power in the relationship. You are changing positions with your wife. This is like a dogfight – you don't want to be flying in front where you get shot down. You need to corkscrew round so that it is her ego that is exposed.

What are you studying by the way?

Does your wife understand or appreciate your scholarly achievements? How many years left do you have? Do you have to write a dissertation?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Bandit,
> 
> I almost always agree with you and like your posts very much.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I was actually trying to get him to understand her mindset. And I agree with you that he did nothing wrong... except be ignorant as to how most women work. 

Like I said, I'm sure she started off with the best of intentions, but no woman can stand to support her man for very long. In this woman's case, her loose morals and lack of boundaries just accelerated the issue. 

And I also think his getting a PhD is noble and admirable. I'm sorry if I came across the opposite.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Direction,
> 
> Your response to the advice you have gotten has been good. You are able to see the logic and that will help you since the dynamics of relationships are predictable.
> 
> ...


 I don't want to be too specific, but it is in the medical field. My wife and I will be in the same profession when I graduate. I have one year of didactic training left and one year of clinical rotations. The idea was that we may be able to start our own joint practice when I get done. Then we could start a family and she could cut back on her work significantly. So, yes, she knows exactly what I'm going through. I worked full time while she went through the same program, so I also know what it's like to be in her position. No, she does not seem to appreciate what I'm going through. She seems very upset that it takes so much of my attention.

I have been thinking a lot over the past couple days, and I have made a lot of mistakes, dating back all the way to the beginning of our relationship. I am really starting to doubt the foundation of our entire relationship. I have allowed her to walk all over me because of my need to feel needed and desire to help her find happiness. She is very insecure and has turned to seeking attention from new guys to make her feel better. We both have problems and need IC to address them. I still want to continue MC with her too, just to talk through all of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

You are even contemplating MC ???

I would bet a million dollars this will not be the last time she will run to an OM. It's what she does when you don't pay her attention and even if you do judging by the early affairs. You will also be in R from now on which is very different to being in love. And it takes years. And it rarely works. R is horrible. Get ready to monitor her for a very very long time. She doesn't think twice about lying. *You will have no peace of mind. 
*
You are clearly a very intelligent man. If your brother was going through this what would you say to him? Do you think your parents brought you into this world, raised you, educated you and instilled good old-fashioned values into you only for you to then throw your life away on someone like her? 

Take a deep breath and get out of this. You mustn't live with her and let her support you. You will end up back with her while being the doormat you are now. Can't you get a loan to help you through the program? You will easily be able to pay it back when you finish it. 

And you now say you supported her through the program???
Sheesh! But now YOU are going through it, she throws a hissy fit because of your lack of attention though she knows damn well the work involved? And to top it all off she has an affair?



> I have allowed her to walk all over me because of my need to feel needed and *desire to help her find happiness.*
> *She is very insecure and has turned to seeking attention from new guys to make her feel better.* We both have problems and need IC to address them. I still want to continue MC with her too, just to talk through all of this.


So you show your insecurity by helping her find happiness and she is very insecure so she has affairs? Baloney - she's a serial cheater. You can make all sorts of excuses for it but there isn't an excuse for an affair. 
You on the other hand feel insecure and it makes you want to make her happy. 
Quite a contrast. Can't you see the irony there at all?

Sorry I'm being so harsh you. You deserve SO much better. 

Come to your senses NSD. Wake up! Please! Now!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

needsomedirection, she is a serial cheater. You know what that means, right? It means she will ALWAYS CHEAT ON YOU. 

Find some roommates, borrow some money to get through the next year on your own, and move on. Trust me, there are millions of smart, trustworthy women out there who WILL desire you and not cheat on you, if you give them a chance. 

You don't have to settle.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

In going to give you advice that no one else has. Your a ****ing nice guy. That's not a complement. 

You want to fix her. You took her on as a project girl (her dad's death). I'd bet money you engage in covert contracts. Hell, you patted her on the back and told her "I love you." when you should have been screaming at her "your a *****!" You think if you just do the right things and follow the formula it'll all be better. You'll make her see what a great guy you are. I bet money having never met you I could name 5 other nice guy traits you do, because is been there myself. 

She has no respect for you. She's told you in all her actions that no matter what you do for her your a scmuck and she'd rather **** someone else. You gave up 6 years of your life for her!!!! (3 working supporting her, 3 more in the PhD program) yet she's playing sausage wallet with someone else. 

Women have no respect for men who don't put their purpose first above everything else. First. 

Start putting yourself first in every action. Go read No More Mr Nice Guy. Go to the NMMNG forum. 

Who knows, you may save this marriage (I doubt it), but until you save yourself your doomed to repeat it again with some other broken woman.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

U.E. McGill said:


> In going to give you advice that no one else has. Your a ****ing nice guy. That's not a complement.
> 
> You want to fix her. You took her on as a project girl (her dad's death). I'd bet money you engage in covert contracts. Hell, you patted her on the back and told her "I love you." when you should have been screaming at her "your a *****!" You think if you just do the right things and follow the formula it'll all be better. You'll make her see what a great guy you are. I bet money having never met you I could name 5 other nice guy traits you do, because is been there myself.
> 
> ...


Wasn't sure what you meant by covert contracts, but I looked it up. Don't think that I have done that. But I do know that I'm a nice guy and I have allowed her to walk all over me. I was hoping that MC would allow us to completely expose our flaws and then consider if we even have a future. I am starting to think that she's not mature enough to fully participate anyway. I'm going to IC this afternoon. She says she's coming by the house later to talk about things. I'm going to try to just listen, and not argue. If she gives me the same old story then I'll know what I need to do.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

A covert contract is engaging in an act to elicit an outcome from another party without that person being aware of the the desired outcome. 

"If I do more stuff around the house for my hubby maybe he'll pay more attention to me". 

Other classic nice guy things? Procrastination, withholding bad news for fear of a persons response, being a bad ender (holding on to a relationship when no one else would), being a fixer/hero, any if these sound familiar? I can go on.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

This is like watching a movie when the creepy music starts.

Until OP regains some of his self respect and realizes he deserves better, we are just spinning our wheels.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nice Guys always do covert contracts because they aren't strong enough to just say what they want and reach for it. They hint around, or hope/expect the other person to figure it out, so they don't have to say it out loud. You're learning now how to stop that, but it doesn't happen overnight. 

Ask her how she expects to never cheat again, when she comes over. Or IF she expects to never cheat again.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Nice Guys always do covert contracts because they aren't strong enough to just say what they want and reach for it. They hint around, or hope/expect the other person to figure it out, so they don't have to say it out loud. You're learning now how to stop that, but it doesn't happen overnight.
> 
> Ask her how she expects to never cheat again, when she comes over. Or IF she expects to never cheat again.


:iagree:This^^^


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You put her through school. Well, you should have no compunction about requesting spousal support until you are clear.

You need a good lawyer.

One more thing: you know about shxt tests, right? Well, she is testing to see if she can destroy you studies. It's real test of your mettle. If you drop out of school to survive your divorce, she will just tell everyone she had to leave you because you were a loser.

And of course she had fall on a strange penis because she was so sad to realize you were not going to make it. The madder her BS makes you inside, the more you should be motivated to thrive.

Reconciliation with her requires remorse and the deepest insight into how messed up she is.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> You put her through school. Well, you should have no compunction about requesting spousal support until you are clear.
> 
> You need a good lawyer.


This..........depending on where you live, you can probably get alimony. Find out who the best shark lawyer is in your area and get an appointment.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

It's been quite a while since my last update, basically because there is no update. We have been going to MC, but nothing is changing. I'm actively participating. She's showing up but not much else. About at my wit's end. Just trying to figure out an exit strategy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

How long before you receive your doctorate? Why don't to teach while working on it/


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Don't move out. Live for free and let her support you. Prior to graduating, file for divorce and go for alimony.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

Yeah, I'm not moving out unless we reach a documented mutual agreement. I don't want her money. She has supported me financially for a few years now. I just don't want to risk her claiming I abandoned her somehow.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

If she isn’t actively partipating in the MC why continue? It’s a pointless task right now. You don’t have to move out to file for divorce and unfortunately you will probably never come to a mutual agreement that makes it to paper, at least in the beginning. 

As how most of this goes, it doesn’t make any sense but even though she wants out they never seem to really want to finish and put and end to it. Abandonment is a non-issue for the most part given the no fault/community prop that most of the states now follow and you don’t have children. 

Your best bet is to speak to a lawyer and find out where you do stand as far as what you may or may not be entitled to or on the hook for, depending on the state you live in you could very well be in a much better financial position filing quickly and “locking her into paying” for your schooling etc. You speak of exit strategy, do just that and the more knowledge you have the better off you are.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

needsomedirection said:


> I just don't want to risk her claiming I abandoned her somehow.


That's what lawyers are for.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

honcho said:


> If she isn’t actively partipating in the MC why continue? It’s a pointless task right now. You don’t have to move out to file for divorce and unfortunately you will probably never come to a mutual agreement that makes it to paper, at least in the beginning.
> 
> As how most of this goes, it doesn’t make any sense but even though she wants out they never seem to really want to finish and put and end to it. Abandonment is a non-issue for the most part given the no fault/community prop that most of the states now follow and you don’t have children.
> 
> Your best bet is to speak to a lawyer and find out where you do stand as far as what you may or may not be entitled to or on the hook for, depending on the state you live in you could very well be in a much better financial position filing quickly and “locking her into paying” for your schooling etc. You speak of exit strategy, do just that and the more knowledge you have the better off you are.


MC - It has actually been very helpful for me to speak openly about my feelings and share my perspective on our relationship. It has made me reevaluate myself as well. In a way, it also makes me feel better when she struggles to justify the choices she's made, and has helped me put things in perspective. I am going to continue to go.

She definitely acts like she wants out, but is completely unwilling to discuss a mutual/healing separation. Not sure about abandonment laws, but I do live in a state with the 1-year separation law. I am afraid to just move out, even though I don't want the house. I don't want to "lock her into paying" for anything. Just don't want to get screwed.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

wilderness said:


> Don't move out. Live for free and let her support you. Prior to graduating, file for divorce and go for alimony.



You're a cheater why are you commenting on this thread?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Your MC is really just IC then which is great if its helping you. I would just quit bring the wife along and work on yourself, your wife will most likely quit showing up anyway as she gets nothing out of it. 

She isn’t acting like she wants out, she wants out. Until she is willing to work on the issues she wants out, simple. Your 1 year separation law will most likely only apply for no fault divorces and almost all have clauses for adultery or abuse and while at the end of divorce it may be hard to prove you can most likely get a case into the system based on it quickly. 

Also try to look at all the angles, I am not saying she will do this but for all you know one day you come home and she is gone, she has rented an apartment and quit making the house payment as she has “suddenly” decided to start the one year separation. What will you do then? I don’t want you to get screwed is what I meant. Talk to a lawyer, find out your options. You are going to be way better off in the long run going on the offensive than trying to play catch-up later.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> You're a cheater why are you commenting on this thread?


Because anyone can comment. You don't get to act as forum monitor.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

spinsterdurga said:


> You're a cheater why are you commenting on this thread?


And I thought I hated really As.....


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

needsomedirection said:


> Yeah, I'm not moving out unless we reach a documented mutual agreement. I don't want her money. She has supported me financially for a few years now. I just don't want to risk her claiming I abandoned her somehow.


Most States recognize a legal term called "constructive abandonment" which means that you have a valid reason to leave, for your own mental or physical safety and health. If, for example, you are being abused, you have a legal right to "abandon" the marital home. Or, if your State only allows for divorce proceedings if you and your spouse are living separate, then you have a legal right to "abandon" the marital home for purposes of beginning to process of ending your marriage.

Check with the laws of your State and consult with a lawyer. Moving out of the marital home is not always seen, by the law, as "abandonment".


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Because anyone can comment. You don't get to act as forum monitor.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My post was not meant for you so just ignore it. I asked Wilderness not you


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## tdwal (Jul 28, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> My post was not meant for you so just ignore it. I asked Wilderness not you



If you want to ask a specific person use PM otherwise your comments could mean anybody and you should not be surprised that others answered.

By the way we a all have a right to express our thoughts as long as we follow the rules.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

I genuinely asked him. I didn't say he didn't have the right to answer. My post was based on his previous post on cheaters and his current post on himself being a cheater. Naah I don't want to PM him


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

spinsterdurga said:


> You're a cheater why are you commenting on this thread?


So I guess that invalidates anything and everything I ever say again, huh?
And I'm not a cheater.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

T/J: We invite everyone to post on all threads, as it adds to the variety of viewpoints and advice so posters can get a better overall 'truth.' We also invite any cheaters to become former cheaters and congratulate them when they do so. And if they don't, we continue to try to help them see that cheating is not a solution. So, yes, everyone is invited to post. Even cheaters.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

You cheated on your previous wife and now you're cheating with a married woman. No it doesn't it's just funny that you're trying to rationalize your situation while condemning others.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She is checked out. Practice an in-house 180. Concentrate on your studies. Go to MC. There stop taking the lead. Let her speak. Repeat what she says back to her, not like a parrot but so that she and MC know that you recognize her feelings.

You will have a good life. Smile at small ironies. Be cheerful. Let your wife see that you are able to move on. Read Kulors' thread
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

spinsterdurga said:


> You cheated on your previous wife and now you're cheating with a married woman. No it doesn't it's just funny that you're trying to rationalize your situation while condemning others.


I condemn no one. Thank you for your input, however.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

wilderness said:


> I condemn no one. Thank you for your input, however.



You did condemned cheaters and the like. You even made a post about throwing them in an island. You were VERY disrespectful to cheaters. Are you rewriting history?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

spinsterdurga said:


> You did condemned cheaters and the like. You even made a post about throwing them in an island. You were VERY disrespectful to cheaters. Are you rewriting history?


I was very wrong for that. Dead wrong.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Are you here to give the cheater's point of view Wilderness?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Forget it I will bow out of this thread. God bless all.


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> She is checked out. Practice an in-house 180. Concentrate on your studies. Go to MC. There stop taking the lead. Let her speak. Repeat what she says back to her, not like a parrot but so that she and MC know that you recognize her feelings.
> 
> You will have a good life. Smile at small ironies. Be cheerful. Let your wife see that you are able to move on. Read Kulors' thread
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I have been working towards; unfortunately it's been in a long, drawn-out way. It is getting easier to manage the anxiety as time goes on, and I have been pushing through my school work the best I can. Just two more weeks until break, which will be a welcome relief! I got an internship for the summer, and looking for another part-time position in a hospital. 

Your advice for MC is also what I've been doing. I let her talk and just listen, and speak-up when prompted. I am just being open, honest and fully involved. She is having a hard time as she is beginning to realize that her blaming and excuses are running thin. I acknowledge my mistakes, and she is starting to see hers, even though she is putting up a fight. I'm not forcing her to go, she keeps showing up on her own every week, so I do give her credit for that. 

I still want to be friendly with her and find mutual ground, it's just hard because she either truly doesn't know what she wants anymore, or is just unwilling to let me go. Either way, doesn't matter. All of her actions indicate she is done with the marriage. I am hoping she will sit down with me to work on a healing separation, but she keeps putting it off. If she isn't willing to do that, then I am just going to leave. I called a reputable lawyer this morning and scheduled a consultation to make sure I make an educated decision when the time comes.



wilderness said:


> Forget it I will bow out of this thread. God bless all.


I appreciate your opinion. Your original comment is not what I'm looking for, but that's ok. Please feel free to contribute to my thread, but let's all stop with the petty bickering. (That's to everyone involved in the thread-jacking, not just you.)


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

The reason she is uncertain about what she wants and unable to sit and talk with you, is the same reason she cheated: poor communication skills and no boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I just read through from the start and here are my initial thoughts:

1. It seems you supported her through her degree and she is now supporting you through yours. Talk to a lawyer in your state about rights and claims that may arise from spousal support of a degree seeking spouse. It's a state by state thing. Don't get surprised.

2. She needs to miss you. I would take that at face. My sense is that this is common in wives having affairs. Give her what she wants. As others have said, don't cling, don't respond except as to the necessary, don't be there. I screwed this one up terribly. For reasons noted in point 3.

3. No kids? Why put yourself through this? Enjoy life. Let miserable people be miserable without making you miserable. It's a luxury you do not have so much once you share children with them.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> My post was not meant for you so just ignore it. I asked Wilderness not you


Yeah. And I chose to respond to it.

You should get used to that kind of thing happening on Internet forums.

And you are _still_ not forum monitor.


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## bigfoot (Jan 22, 2014)

You, Sir, haven given her too much power. I don't mean that as the man you are to be in charge, but too much power in determining the path of the relationship, whether it ends or reconciles. You cannot be a passenger on a ride where the driver is unconscious. You will get hurt that way.

You say that she keeps putting off working on a "healing separation" and seems to barely participate in MC; then you say that she is "done with the marriage". You list as an option that you just leave. These are unacceptable concessions of power. I like that you have set up a consult with an attorney, although that is something that only involves you. Time to get her involved.

You have been counseled on the 180. It is not as hard as you make it seem. Do it, if you want that outcome. Let her make whatever accommodations she needs to make in response to you. You adjust too, but do it. Just freaking do it. Let her tell you what is not working and how it is messing things up and then keep on doing it. Alternatively, decide how you want to proceed with separation and perhaps ending it all together. 

Tell her that you are going to set down the terms of a "healing separation" on a date and time certain. She is expected to be there and to participate. If not, then you will write down the terms and conduct yourself accordingly and expect that she will comply. Then do it. If she violates the terms, then its over, period. You could also consult with a lawyer, get things drawn up legal and proper and present it to her for her signature. Give her a deadline to review and sign and tell her that she cannot put off signing. (You can't make her, but you can fake her). Let her know that you are done waiting on her to make a decision. You are making them. She can either follow along or leave but she cannot clog up things. 

No matter what you do, 180, healing separation, etc., you must act and stay the course. Her being wishy washy cannot make you act the same.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. And I chose to respond to it.
> 
> You should get used to that kind of thing happening on Internet forums.
> 
> And you are _still_ not forum monitor.



Oh I wrote that I was a forum monitor?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You know what? In about another year (2?), you are about to become VERY HOT PROPERTY - young, educated, probably good looking, with a very good career ahead of you. You're gonna have to fight women off with a stick.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

spinsterdurga said:


> Oh I wrote that I was a forum monitor?


You intimated it by telling someone they didn't belong on a thread.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

I didn't intimidate. I asked him a question based on his previous post/opinions on WW. Nope I never wrote that he didn't belong on the thread😳


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> I didn't intimidate. I asked him a question based on his previous post/opinions on WW. Nope I never wrote that he didn't belong on the thread😳


I haven't followed this bicker banter, but that was inadvertently funny.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I said intimate. You intimated that you were a mod by saying who could be on a thread.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

Oops I misread it. No I didn't say who could be on the thread. I asked him a question that's all


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

spinsterdurga said:


> Oops I misread it. No I didn't say who could be on the thread. I asked him a question that's all


You said


> You're a cheater. Why are you commenting on this thread?


To deny that you were telling someone they were not welcome on, or shouldn't be on, this thread is being passive aggressive.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

Nope I asked as in why was he finding faults with cheaters while he was one of them. I wanted to go from his answer. I don't need to be PA Turnera to tell him what I think and if I meant to write what you're saying I would have.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> Oh I wrote that I was a forum monitor?


You questioned someone else's right to post in a thread. 

Therefore, you acted as if you thought you were some kind of forum monitor.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

No Matt I didn't question his right to post


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

bigfoot said:


> You, Sir, haven given her too much power. I don't mean that as the man you are to be in charge, but too much power in determining the path of the relationship, whether it ends or reconciles. You cannot be a passenger on a ride where the driver is unconscious. You will get hurt that way.
> 
> You say that she keeps putting off working on a "healing separation" and seems to barely participate in MC; then you say that she is "done with the marriage". You list as an option that you just leave. These are unacceptable concessions of power. I like that you have set up a consult with an attorney, although that is something that only involves you. Time to get her involved.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. She has held the keys since the start, and I'm the one who handed them over to her. I know what I need to do, it's just hard for me to change 10+ years of behavior. We are meeting tomorrow night to go though the healing separation. I like your back-up plan if she bails again this time. I know I need to stick to my guns. I wanted to give MC a shot before I spoke to a lawyer.



turnera said:


> You know what? In about another year (2?), you are about to become VERY HOT PROPERTY - young, educated, probably good looking, with a very good career ahead of you. You're gonna have to fight women off with a stick.


Thanks for the compliments! I know the future is bright!



intheory said:


> "A woman does not want to support her man. She doesn't.
> 
> "A woman wants a man who takes care of her.....period. It is in a woman's DNA. 10,000 years of human evolution has programmed women to expect men to take care of them."
> *********************
> ...


I hear you on that. I definitely believe this plays a part in the situation. Never heard that stat about men dumping wives after school though.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> No Matt I didn't question his right to post





> You're a cheater. *Why are you commenting on this thread? *


:scratchhead:


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> No Matt I didn't question his right to post





spinsterdurga said:


> You're a cheater. *Why are you commenting on this thread?*





MattMatt said:


> :scratchhead:


SpinDoctor would've been a better username for this one.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

3putt said:


> SpinDoctor would've been a better username for this one.



Yeah maybe I should change my username huh...got something better to add?


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> :scratchhead:



I still stand by my posts


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## needsomedirection (Apr 1, 2014)

spinsterdurga said:


> I still stand by my posts





3putt said:


> SpinDoctor would've been a better username for this one.





MattMatt said:


> :scratchhead:


Guys, enough. Move on.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> I still stand by my posts


Well, that makes one of the collective that does.

Good start.


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## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

Stop derailing from OP thread. sheesh.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

intheory said:


> "A woman does not want to support her man. She doesn't.
> 
> "A woman wants a man who takes care of her.....period. It is in a woman's DNA. 10,000 years of human evolution has programmed women to expect men to take care of them."
> *********************
> ...


I don't think these are universal truths. I can give you a number of real-life examples where they aren't true, including in my own life.

My wife doesn't "need" me. I believe that my wife is in a much better place when she doesn't feel like she is so dependent on me. The result is she is happier with herself and therefore we are happier with each other. Funny how that works.

Careful not to let yourself get too cynical. Life is already hard enough.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> Stop derailing from OP thread. sheesh.


Yep, agreed. Ignore my response in my previous post


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

You guys need to stop feeding the spinsterdurga. It's just prolonging the threadjack.


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