# Wife and the guy next door too close.



## NickTheChemist

Hi. My wife stays home and 2 of our 3 children are home with her (oldest is in Kindergarten). The guy next door has become a buddy of mine (we’ll call him John for this forum), but the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine—after all, we can’t control that, right? 

I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way. 

We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it. 

She has been very defensive when I have expressed my feelings and blamed me for something unrelated for which I was guilty (I knew about a bad situation I was in at work and didn’t tell her until I had to change departments—I thought I was protecting her from worry, but should have shared what I knew—that a manager was trying to get me fired.


I wasn’t fired and career is still great.

Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?

I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing.

They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me. 

We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking. 

This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)

There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.

I am a good and attractive husband, but her heart seems to be leading her towards him over me when we are both present. I feel like I’m a kid again and my girlfriend is smitten with the popular guy. It sucks. I’m just so sad because I love my wife and want to show my children a strong, faith-based marriage.

Ive shared with her that these things are hurtful to me and still they continue.

I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


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## [email protected]

Nick, it's obviously a EA and will become a PA if not stopped. There are several red flags here, but you seem to be aware of them already. He and your wife are together in your house: A recipe for disaster.


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## Mr.Married

Its going to turn into a disaster ...... eventually.

Best to set boundaries up front. A man spending time in my house with my wife is a no go for me.

The thing to understand is that the further you let this go on ...... the more you are operating from the weak position. Your only further downgrading yourself in her eyes.

Strong action with your acceptable behavior being made well known ... what you will tolerate...and what you will not is the only way.

If she puts up a huge fight .... then you already know she chooses him over you. Plain and simple.

Stories just like yours have been told here MANY times .... your gut is telling you something. These stories never end well.

Prepare yourself.


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## Lila

How does John's wife feel about her husband visiting with your wife alone every week while she's working and about the texting? If she doesn't care then you might have swingers on your hands. Just saying. 

So that aside, you're probably going to have to end your friendship with John and his family if you have any chance of resolving this situation. Why in the world are you doing family weekends with him? Put a stop to all of that. They can be your neighbor but don't have to be your friends.


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## Faithful Wife

Lila said:


> How does John's wife feel about her husband visiting with your wife alone every week while she's working and about the texting? If she doesn't care then you might have swingers on your hands. Just saying.
> 
> So that aside, you're probably going to have to end your friendship with John and his family if you have any chance of resolving this situation. Why in the world are you doing family weekends with him? Put a stop to all of that. They can be your neighbor but don't have to be your friends.


Good point asking what the other wife thinks about it. She may not know if it always happens when she is at work.

I would say doubtful on the swingers, as real ones don’t tend to go after people in a cheating situation. If they do they are just called cheaters then, swinging or not.


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## BigToe

I think given the extent of the friendship (with everyone involved) it's going to be difficult to walk away or end it. Certainly your wife and John are not going to feel they need to end the friendship. I think you should have an honest and open talk with John first, telling him you don't want to ruin your friendship but he needs to be YOUR friend, not your wifes. Then talk with your wife the same way and tell her how things "appear" just as you have told it to this forum. Tell her you don't wish to be in the position you find yourself now and need her to reign things in.

I tell this to anyone who will listen...we all experience temptations in our lives, and NOBODY is immune from it. The best way to avoid temptation is to avoid putting yourself in a position that invites it. If you love your partner, it's never an issue to "behave" in a fashion that provides them security and peace of mind regarding the relationship.


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## aine

Var the house immediately. Then tell your neighbor's wife of his many trips to your house. It is very inappropriate.


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## zookeeper

NickTheChemist said:


> ...I want her to have male friends...


Why in hell would you want that? 

There is only one thing a male friend can offer a married woman that a female friend can't and she should only be getting that from you.


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## Cooper

I have seen that same scenario played out that ended in affairs destroying the marriage...twice. Neighbors turned into friends turned into affairs.

The problem you have now is the more you push the deeper they will go under the radar, but push you must. You need to break up that friendship, your wife either recognizes how inappropriate and damaging it is or she ignores you. If she ignores you the marriage is doomed. I wonder how the guys wife feels about it, you may want to have a conversation with her.


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## TJW

NickTheChemist said:


> I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen.....


Don't think this for one more minute. BTDT. My XW carried our two boys right in to her affairs, without shame. Go talk to John's wife about this.


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## FieryHairedLady

Ok there is no "nice conversation" that needs to be had with the neighbor. He needs to be told in no uncertain terms that he stays away from your wife, kids, and home. There is no friendship between you and him.

Talk to neighbors wife. Let her know this is way out of line. 

Talk to your wife. Lay down the rules and the boundary lines. She either gets in line, or she can get out too.

In case you didn't know, the "once a week visit" is sexy time. And it is way more then once a week. 

Sorry dude. 

What you want to do about your marriage is up to you.


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## FieryHairedLady

@oldshirt @sokillme @Blondilocks @Shesstillgotit


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## BruceBanner

@NickTheChemist What state do you live in? It might be time to buy a gun if you haven't already.


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## FieryHairedLady

BruceBanner said:


> @NickTheChemist What state do you live in? It might be time to buy a gun if you haven't already.


I am not sure that is such a good idea. In emotional matters such as these, that can quickly accelerate and lead to something bad happening that otherwise wouldn't of.


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## niceguy47460

I will tell you now there is something going on between them . if you can get in her phone i would see what they text about . VAR the house asap and maybe even hidden cameras . it is going on in your house under your nose. He is probably there more than you know . you better break this up asap .


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## Blondilocks

You are away with this guy's family for the weekend. Great! Now, is the perfect time to initiate a conversation involving all 4 adults. Simply lay it out that you don't appreciate the bonding that is occurring between wife and ass hole. From now on you will be neighbors only and will expect them to respect your boundaries.

When you get home, check into a security system for the house with cameras that you can access remotely and vars for the house. Don't tell wife.

Please revise your thinking about male/female friendships - your wife can't handle them. You may think you're being oh-so sophisticated and cosmopolitan by allowing them; but, you're really enabling her.

Finally, it's time for you to establish some boundaries for your marriage. In short, there will be a new sheriff in town.


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## sokillme

Get the book not just friends give it to her. If you have to print out the worst stories from SurvivingInfidelity.com sit there while she reads it or read it to her. Tell her if she has an affair you will divorce her and never speak to her again. Put the fear of God into her. And I agree bring it up when everyone is together and then don't apologize for it. That is your wife!

Then don't chase her tell her to make up her mind and you will wait and see. And tell John to **** off. Pull him to the side and tell him if he has an affair with your wife you will cut his balls off.


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## Laurentium

NickTheChemist said:


> They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.
> 
> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.


My guess is it hasn't become physical - YET - because she is making no attempt to hide it. 



> I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “It makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way."


I suspect this isn't working because you're being a little bit disingenuous there.


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## MyRevelation

Forget the “I Feel” statements. The only thing to “Feel” at this point is your foot in John’s ass as you punt him back across the property line.

As for the weekend away ... pack your **** and leave with your kids ... your W can stay or go with you.

Seriously, you tried to address this reasonably. Since that didn’t work it’s time to be unreasonable.


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## Marc878

You have a guy your wife is allowing into your life and marriage means you won't have one for long without boundaries.

Why are you allowing this?

Read up you need this badly. It's short
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy


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## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Hi. My wife stays home and 2 of our 3 children are home with her (oldest is in Kindergarten). The guy next door has become a buddy of mine (we’ll call him John for this forum), but the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine—after all, we can’t control that, right?
> 
> I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way.
> 
> We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it.
> 
> She has been very defensive when I have expressed my feelings and blamed me for something unrelated for which I was guilty (I knew about a bad situation I was in at work and didn’t tell her until I had to change departments—I thought I was protecting her from worry, but should have shared what I knew—that a manager was trying to get me fired.
> 
> 
> I wasn’t fired and career is still great.
> 
> Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?
> 
> I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing.
> 
> They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.
> 
> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.
> 
> This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)
> 
> There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.
> 
> I am a good and attractive husband, but her heart seems to be leading her towards him over me when we are both present. I feel like I’m a kid again and my girlfriend is smitten with the popular guy. It sucks. I’m just so sad because I love my wife and want to show my children a strong, faith-based marriage.
> 
> Ive shared with her that these things are hurtful to me and still they continue.
> 
> I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


The very first thing I would do, is purchase motion activated hidden nanny cams (or VAR's - voice activated recorders - in spaces where a hidden camera just won't fit in under the radar) and put them throughout the house. Particularly in your bedroom, the living room, kitchen, as well as any other spare bedrooms. If your wife has already taken her relationship with him to the next level, you need to know. Do not ask her.

Then, I would sit your wife down at the next opportunity when you guys have a good amount of time to talk, and tell her that you're not comfortable with John's presence in your house any longer. And that you don't want him there from now on. Do not voice any suspicions of an affair - that will just make them really cautious, and take whatever it is they're doing underground where you can't see it. If she asks why, keep all your statements directed towards John "I'm not comfortable with the way he acts around you". If she fights this, and refuses to not hang out with him, then you'll know John is more than a friend. But once again, do not give voice to anything about him being more than a friend to her, or about an affair. This will likely be very difficult, so prepare yourself ahead of time to not say anything if sorely tempted.

On the other hand, if she agrees to not hang out with him, then tell her that you're going to call John and tell him the same thing - that he's not welcome any longer, and that you don't want him in your house. That will take the pressure off of your wife to break the news.

After a week or so, review the nanny cam footage, and the VAR recordings, and see what they reveal (if anything). Then report back.




Blondilocks said:


> When you get home, check into a security system for the house with cameras that you can access remotely and vars for the house. Don't tell wife.
> 
> Please revise your thinking about male/female friendships - your wife can't handle them. You may think you're being oh-so sophisticated and cosmopolitan by allowing them; but, you're really enabling her.
> 
> Finally, it's time for you to establish some boundaries for your marriage. In short, there will be a new sheriff in town.


+1 except for the security system. Nanny cams will be unnoticeable - a security system with cameras... not so much. And Nick, your wife not knowing about the cameras is absolutely critical.

But yeah, as another poster said, here's only one thing a male friend can give her that a female friend can't - and it isn't help reaching the top shelf. You need to revise your position on opposite sex friendships. All you're doing is opening up your marriage to tons of opportunities for cheating. And, do you seriously think any male friend of hers has only platonic interest? Men don't build friendships with women they're not attracted.

It's time for you to grow a backbone Nick. A new sheriff in town - great way to put it :grin2:


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## No Longer Lonely Husband

You need to nip this **** in the bud sir. There is an extremely high probability this has gone physical. If it was me, wife would have the riot act read to her and I would let the neighbor know in no uncertain terms I will kick your ass up to your shoulder blades. 

Listen to @Marc878. No more Mr. nice Guy! Now!

From 18 times per year, rest assured she is getting it from John.

As for telling your wife you lay it out in black and white. Your word is UNACCEPTABLE. You tell her John and her flirting and him coming into your house is UNACCEPTABLE. Man up.


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## ConanHub

I'm seriously wondering if world governments are conspiring to castrate men in some nefarious manner and how some of us have escaped it.

Do men really have problems like this?!?!?

If so, why?


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## snerg

NickTheChemist said:


> but the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. * I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine*—after all, we can’t control that, right?


SIGH




NickTheChemist said:


> *I’ve talked with her twice now* using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way.


SIGH




NickTheChemist said:


> We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and *now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it.*


SIGH



NickTheChemist said:


> Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. *He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone*. I’ve been telling myself *it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen.*.... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?


SIGH




NickTheChemist said:


> I want to believe and trust my wife and *I want her to have male friends,* but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or *when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing.*





NickTheChemist said:


> *They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me,* then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.


SIGH



NickTheChemist said:


> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—*he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together*—sitting together—talking.


SIGH



NickTheChemist said:


> *This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication*, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)


SIGH



NickTheChemist said:


> There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), *but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.*


SIGH




NickTheChemist said:


> I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


SIGH

How do you stand by and let your wife do this to your marriage?


Here's what you do:
1) Realize your wife is in an EA
2) Realize that they are grown adults. He is over your house when you're not there. It's Physical.
3) You contact a Lawyer to find out your rights.
4) You start divorce process with your lawyer
5) You get your financial ducks in a row

Your wife has little to no respect for you.
She has none for your marriage.
She has little for you kids (Really, she allows him into the house when you're at work?)

Sit down with wife (have divorce papers ready).
Explain to her the following:
Wife, I see that you now have a new boy friend.
That's fine, except you will not have one while married to me.
Choose now me or him.
If she chooses you, then you set the rules for reconciliation
if she chooses him - give her the papers and let her know you are going full steam ahead to get away from a cheater
If she can't decide - well, she's already a cheater so she's figuring out a way to cake eat. Just give her the divorce papers and go full on divorce.

Regardless, you need to start setting some boundaries for your relationships and stop letting people that you love walk all over you.
Life is complicated, why do you allow others to make it so much harder?


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## TRy

MyRevelation said:


> Seriously, you tried to address this reasonably. Since that didn’t work it’s time to be unreasonable.


 The above post is on the money, and you should say this to your wife. Tell her that you “tried to address this reasonably. Since that didn’t work it’s time to be unreasonable.” Also add that “when the two of you both make me the odd man out when you are together, that is unacceptable, and I will no longer tolerate your unhealthy for our marriage relationship with him.” Tell her that she is to stop seeing him, texting him, calling him, emailing him, and having him over to your home. That there will be no more family outings, get togethers, or trips, with him until further notice. That when necessary, she is to only communicate through his wife, and him through you. Tell her that if she does not accept this, then you will know that he means more to her than he should, and that they are at least in an emotional affair (“EA”). Let her know that if your marriage is over anyways, you will not be afraid to end it.


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## AandM

ConanHub said:


> I'm seriously wondering if world governments are conspiring to castrate men in some nefarious manner and how some of us have escaped it.
> 
> Do men really have problems like this?!?!?
> 
> If so, why?


It's the chemicals in the food and water; haven't you heard man?


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## ConanHub

AandM said:


> It's the chemicals in the food and water; haven't you heard man?


I swear there is a subspecies of men that don't resemble me or those like me at all.


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## AandM

ConanHub said:


> I swear there is a subspecies of men that don't resemble me or those like me at all.


**** Hipsteromonous. A species of hominid noted by their flabby arms, snarky, ineffective mating calls, and group veneration of Pitchfork. This noxious species' native habitat is the Williamsberg region of NewYark, Delkabatation forest of Emory, and the black hollows of BuckheadAtl.


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## TRy

ConanHub said:


> I swear there is a subspecies of men that don't resemble me or those like me at all.


 They are willing to risk another man having sex with their wife, if it means that no one will call them “jealous and controlling”.


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## ConanHub

AandM said:


> **** Hipsteromonous. A species of hominid noted by their flabby arms, snarky, ineffective mating calls, and group veneration of Pitchfork. This noxious species' native habitat is the Williamsberg region of NewYark, Delkabatation forest of Emory, and the black hollows of BuckheadAtl.


:smthumbup:


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## Marc878

Nick right now you are your biggest problem

Read up it's short
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy

You don't get your head outta your ass this will get worse if it hasn't already

You don't ask in these situations you TELL and be very willing to back it up with consequences.


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## SunCMars

ConanHub said:


> I'm seriously wondering if world governments are conspiring to castrate men in some nefarious manner and how some of us have escaped it.
> 
> Do men really have problems like this?!?!?
> 
> If so, why?


Why?

Our jails are full of these defenders of honor.

I have much more to say on this 'matter'.
I need to say, no more, not, no mas'.





[THM]- TM


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## SunCMars

Quote from:
@NickTheChemist 



> I am reading "No more Mr. nice guy" right now and love the book. Like it was written for me. For 8 years of marriage and a year dating before that I have made my darling wife my emotional center and smothered her with an overwhelming amount of well-intentioned self-sacrificing love and affection.
> 
> I've started making changes and feel much better already. Mainly, I have decided to be happy despite my wife's affection level or mood. Also, I have started speaking out in a very calm and controlled way and standing up for myself when she is degrading and disrespectful to me. I feel great, but it's not going over well with her yet.
> 
> I discussed this with her before making changes, but she didn't seem to think any change was needed.
> 
> Over the past 8 years I have let most everything hurtful--including little or no physical or sexual contact--slide in the name of peace, and she has rarely apologized to me in the past decade after wronging me.
> 
> I'm 31, she's 29. We are both healthy and attractive. She stays home with our 3 children 4,2, 2mos and she is an excellent mother and home maker. I do a lot around and outside the house, too and am a very devoted and committed father.
> 
> Today she treated me very harshly in front of our children to the point I had to try and explain to my 4-year old that everything was okay. This is a rare, but regular occurrence. My wife is a great person with a very ugly temper. Thankfully, I am her only target and she does not lash out at the kids when, on the somewhat rare occasion, she becomes very angry.
> 
> After I put the kids to bed she was upset that I confronted her about the incident (I did not fight back at the time for the sake of our children, who were present.) she was angry at me that I had not just let it go.
> 
> *She went on to say I have changed and that if she didn't know better, she'd think I was cheating*. Never apologized.
> 
> I have never cheated on her and will not. She knows better than to even mention it &#55357;&#56852;.
> 
> I am still very kind, attentive and committed to her. I love only her and desperately want an intimate relationship like we once had. I have simply stopped throwing myself, wreckless abandoned, at her feet constantly hoping to be loved and respected for it.
> 
> I have discussed with her that I am trying to improve myself and become a man more worthy of her respect.
> 
> Her go-to is saying that She's just a horrible person and can never be the person I want. My reply is that I want her and request that she just try to control her temper and mashing out at me in anger--especially in front of our children.
> 
> Shall I stay the course and continue to communicate with her openly about my self-improvement and invite her to read be involved and help me if she wants?


Above is a quote from your first thread, about two years ago.
You still have not learned.

Interesting, that she thought you were cheating.
Maybe because she is, or maybe was concerned that you do NOT insist that she perform her wifely duties with regard to sex.

In her mind, she likely thought that since you are not pestering her for sex, you must be getting it elsewhere.

This neighbor, he does not get the nasty side of her, does he?

He does likely does do the 'nasty' with her.
Or, soon will.

She is about thirty one now, and is in her sexual prime. 
She likely enjoys dominant men.

Which, of course, you are not. 
This is not a bad thing, it just does not help you dealing properly with......her.


I would get divorced.
Sorry.





[THM]- The Typist I


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## BruceBanner

The more I read these type of threads the more I scratch my head in bewilderment at the **** people will tolerate or put up with. I would've divorced long ago.


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## Prodigal

NickTheChemist said:


> … the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine—after all, we can’t control that, right?


I read every response/post in this thread before deciding to comment. The men who have responded have given you solid advice. I want to weigh in as a woman. You realize your wife is attracted to another man, but you can't control it??? No, ultimately, you can't "control" what your wife feels, but to just say it's "fine" having men friends just ain't right. It's not a matter of "control" it's a matter of respect for the marriage. 



NickTheChemist said:


> I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements.
> 
> We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it.
> 
> She has been very defensive when I have expressed my feelings and blamed me for something unrelated for which I was guilty …


This made my jaw drop. And it takes a lot to make my jaw drop. Why, in the name of all that is holy, would you even permit her one nanosecond to deflect to something unrelated to your concerns? This is disrespectful to you, to say the least. I hope you can see that your wife doesn't give a damn how you "feel." Seriously. She's defensive? Yeah, I just bet she is … because she has a lot to defend; namely, her having, at the very least, an EA with this jerk.



NickTheChemist said:


> I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends …
> 
> They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.


Okay. You want your wife to have male "friends"? Then they can come over when you are home. A marriage doesn't have room for other-sex friends who get chummy like this. NO. ROOM. Why the hell are you allowing your wife and this ass-clown to ignore you when you are there? Forget this crap. You are being played for a fool right in front of them. ENOUGH.



NickTheChemist said:


> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.


Where is John's wife while this slap-and-tickle fest is going on? Does she even care that her husband is behaving this way??? Is she playing the doormat role too? 



NickTheChemist said:


> I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls …


Oh, please. Her "walls" appear to have come tumbling down with good ole' John. She is cutting you out. Why? Because she isn't into you. Now she's got a boyfriend she is flaunting right in front of your face. Doesn't appear she has any "walls" with her new squeeze, does it?



NickTheChemist said:


> Ive shared with her that these things are hurtful to me and still they continue. … I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


Quit talking with your wife about this situation. It has gotten you nowhere and it makes you appear weak. You TELL her this crap ends now, or you file for divorce. I'm not a poster who comes on here advocating divorce in a shoot-from-the-hip fashion, but the level of disrespect you are being shown means you either strap on a pair and man up or allow this nonsense to continue.

With the way you have been handling this, it WILL continue. And why not? There are no consequences for their behavior/actions, just you telling her how you "feel." SHE. DOESN'T. CARE. HOW. YOU. FEEL.


----------



## frusdil

This is beyond inappropriate. I can't believe that your wife behaves this way or that you allow it. No way in hades would this happen in my marriage, neither my husband or I would tolerate it. Not for a second.


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## manwithnoname

DNA the kids, for fun. If your relationship was like this the whole time, John may not be the first.


----------



## SunCMars

You have heard all the admonitions:

Grow a pair of balls.
Grow a stiff spine.

Both of these are aimed directly at your manhood.
Sadly, for a good reason.

Ah....no, for a bad reason, but reality demands this.

Being a nice guy 'is' a good thing, 'should' be a good thing in this cruel world.

Unfortunately, some people take advantage of nice men and women. They use them up.

Your' wife is one of these people.

I get it, she no longer loves you.
If she were a decent person she would kindly let you go, not flaunt her disrespect in your face.

Not only is she a bully, she is openly cruel. She belittles you in front of your' children, and with this neighbor.


Take your love.....
Away from her.
Away from the marriage.

Give it to your' children.
Give it to a decent lady who appreciates it.

After, you divorce.

...........................................................................

You are a valuable man.
The world needs more nice guys.

Waste not a minute with your' present wife.
Her chemistry and yours' do not compound well.

She is an acid, the neighbor a base {man}. 
They react well when placed in the same container. 
Your' house, where ever, whenever they mix.

Heat from their reaction is evident in their faces, their smiles. 
Her face reddens, gets warm. Her fold gets moist.
He smiles, coos, gets a firm chub.

You are the salt of the Earth, having no grudge, holding no charge, especially one that is negative.

Any love you show her precipitates out, readily.
She cannot, will not bind with your love offering.

Find a women who will happily and willingly annex with your love-chemistry offering.
Tis' mere compatibility, nothing more.





[THM]- SCM


----------



## Chaparral

Less than three times a month is ansexless marriage. How long has this been going on? How long has the neighbor been visiting like this? If sex is this bad, how did she get pregnant?

Did you also read MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER listed below along with NOT JUST FRIENDS?

You’re letting political correctness destroy your marriage. 

You have several issues. Neighbor needs to be cornered and disinvited. Wife has to go have counseling for anger and other issues. Marriage counseling also if things do not improve drastically! 

Definitely do the investigating recommended above. Things may already be past the breaking point. 

Her actions toward neighbor sounds a lot like revenge and spite. The first thing I would do is completely 180 on neighbor. He may be in on her BS and or is playing her. 

Unfortunately, many affairs are varied on just like this . They get off on doing this in front of their spouses to run their noses in it.

Man up before you become a part time dad. 

Definitely hide some voice recorders in the house and car. Also, get a GPS tracker for the car. Ring door bells are great for alerting you when someone comes to the door whether or not they ring the doorbell. I also have ARLO and they work great. I might add they come in handy for f their is a confrontation. 

Stay at home moms are in the upper category of cheaters. One out of three men and women cheat at some point so protect your family. It’s your number one job and you are not being successful at it at this point. 

Download MARRIED MANSE. LIFE PRIMER now. You’re being manipulated by them both.


----------



## Chaparral

After Reading a couple of pages in your first thread. Two things stand out. You both have Family of Origin issues. You both need individual counseling. 

In your wife’s case, I would be willing to bet a lot of money she was sexually abused as a young person. Having a decent sex life before children and then having her cut you off after marriage and children is a huge red flag for that. Do a little research on that. Her anger issues also indicate abusive relationships in her family. Was either of her parents alcoholic? She learned her anger behavior at home fromrom at least one of her parents, maybe both.

It looks like you may have learned to let yourself be manipulated by your family.


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## Malaise

TRy said:


> They are willing to risk another man having sex with their wife, if it means that no one will call them “jealous and controlling”.


Yep.


----------



## Malaise

OP I read your posts and see confusion and frustration.

Things will not improve for you until we see anger.


----------



## badsanta

NickTheChemist said:


> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.
> 
> This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)


Perhaps there is something about sex that makes your wife uncomfortable. The most common examples is that she may harbor resentment towards you and/or your sexual pursuit of her makes her feel used if there is no emotional connection. She may guard an emotional connection with you because she feels you will preemptively pursue sex before a connection is re-established. 

Compare that to John? Morally speaking he is not allowed to have sex with your wife, so that makes it safe for her to be his friend. She can let her guard down and become emotionally vulnerable without him insinuating that it is time to Marvin Gaye and get it on. This is the perfect recipe for an emotional affair.

*How to you end an emotional affair?* That is what you need to 100% focus on first. Odds are he has confided in your wife about all the things wrong in his marriage and she has done the same about you with him. You and the other wife are the villains in this story, so you can't exactly come swooping in to save the day! First, talk to John's wife that you are concerned that he and your wife are becoming a little too flirtatious and that it is pulling your wife away from you. Then outcompete your wife for John's attention since you and him are "buddies" while at the same time encouraging your wife to spend time with his wife. Then you and the neighbor's wife make a coordinated effort to poison the emotional affair between John and your wife by doing this:



You share with John all the odd and uncomfortable things that your wife has said about him. Make it awkward and humiliating. 
Have the neighbor's wife share all the off odd and uncomfortable things that John has said about your wife with her. Encourage her to let that be awkward and humiliating. 
You and the neighbor's wife then make a coordinated effort once back with your own spouses to continue this attack. You tell your wife all the bad things John said about her, and make up things that you know make her vulnerable (like she is overweight or unattractive). Have the neighbor's wife do the same with her husband against your wife.

In other words if you are the villain, you are going to have to play the part and fight fire with fire. If you can do the above with things that are truthful things that John and your wife do not like about each other than even better. 

Good luck!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## 3Xnocharm




----------



## samyeagar

NickTheChemist said:


> Hi. My wife stays home and 2 of our 3 children are home with her (oldest is in Kindergarten). The guy next door has become a buddy of mine (we’ll call him John for this forum), but the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine—after all, we can’t control that, right?
> 
> I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way.
> 
> We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it.
> 
> She has been very defensive when I have expressed my feelings and blamed me for something unrelated for which I was guilty (I knew about a bad situation I was in at work and didn’t tell her until I had to change departments—I thought I was protecting her from worry, but should have shared what I knew—that a manager was trying to get me fired.
> 
> 
> I wasn’t fired and career is still great.
> 
> Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?
> 
> I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing.
> 
> They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.
> 
> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.
> 
> This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)
> 
> There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.
> 
> I am a good and attractive husband, but her heart seems to be leading her towards him over me when we are both present. I feel like I’m a kid again and my girlfriend is smitten with the popular guy. It sucks. I’m just so sad because I love my wife and want to show my children a strong, faith-based marriage.
> 
> Ive shared with her that these things are hurtful to me and still they continue.
> 
> I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


Pretty much all of the things you went out of your way to point out how much you don't have a problem with, are okay with, think is normal... are all things you damned well should have a problem with.


----------



## TRy

BruceBanner said:


> The more I read these type of threads the more I scratch my head in bewilderment at the **** people will tolerate or put up with.


The sad thing is that it does not have to be this way for the OP. Many of the posters on this site, if we could somehow take over the OP’s body for a few days, would get this matter straightened out pronto. 

If you act like a doormat, you cannot blame anyone for walking all over you.


----------



## BluesPower

I don't know if I read it yet... maybe I missed one of the posts...

And I don't think that he will be back, probably freaked out.

Dude, your wife is already screwing him, get it. It IS HAPPENING every day.

Why are you putting up with this? What makes you think this is ok in any way. 

Do you have any balls at all, or did she put them somewhere? 

Come on...


----------



## Chaparral

What kind of physical condition are the four of you in? 

Where is your neighbor’s wife during the day?

She has never mentioned anything to you about what is going on? 

Start going out once in awhile dressed up, even if it’s just to go shopping or the gym. If she doesn’t like it, tell her to call her boyfriend. See how that goes over. I’m guessing there is a good chance she doesn’t give a damn. 

She has two kids at home. That’s a big job but it sounds like with a full time job you are doing as much or more around the house as she is. That’s a very bad mistake and if true. 

You can’t get to her phone to see what she is texting or if she is deleting things? Does the phone sync with anything?


----------



## SongoftheSouth

Nick I pretty much agree with what everyone else is writing. Tell this guy to back off and if your wife doesnt like it that tells you something. No need to be gentle about it. Not good.


----------



## just got it 55

Sorry your life has come to this

You should live life on these criteria

Keeping your sanity intact

Keeping your health intact

Keeping your self-respect intact

Keeping your finances intact

Keeping your relationship with your children intact

Putting all these things first and taking that path it will lead you to a better life.

The best result is a life well lived

sorry brother

She is ****ing him no question

55


----------



## BruceBanner

SongoftheSouth said:


> Nick I pretty much agree with what everyone else is writing. Tell this guy to back off and if your wife doesnt like it that tells you something. No need to be gentle about it. Not good.


He shouldn't even have to be doing any of this. The fact that his wife didn't tell him to back off herself already told him a lot.


----------



## Mr.Married

Elvis has left the building


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## SunCMars

Mr.Married said:


> Elvis has left the building


If internet strangers can drive you away, is it no wonder you are miserable.

Sorry, we will not sit idly by and commiserate with you. We will sympathize with you only so much.

On leaving us in the lurch...
If this were your first thread you would be accused of being a baiter, an instigator.

You are not this, I presume?

The thing about the Internet Age, everything you have written in the past comes back to haunt you. The film age did this to a lesser extent and only affected more famous people.

This drives flip-flopping politicians crazy. You are 'not' a flip-flopper in word and deeds. You are consistent in your words.

Come out of your corner and face us strangers. We do not live with you, your wife does.

If you only want to vent here and not make those necessary changes highlighted here, you are going to relive your own Ground Hog day, e.g., the same sad story every day.

You have given up on us.
Your wife has given up on you.

We have not 'yet' given up on you.

We enjoy seeing justice served.

What would this justice look like for 'most' of us.

One of two scenarios.

1) Your wife realizes what she is doing to her marriage and mends her ways. This, of course, would be the ideal solution for both of you. This would require you to make some of those recommended changes in your response to her and her errant and wayward ways.

2) You cease being a doormat to her. You 'are' a nice guy. She takes advantage of this and disrespects you at every turn. You then do some serious introspection and either change (unlikely) or divorce her. She no longer loves or respects you. At best, you are her husband, she likes you for being a father to the children, nothing more. 

But, she is not 'this'. 

Your wife is weak. 

She is unhappy. 
She is angry with her situation in life and her choice in a husband. But, she does not have the guts to end it....properly.
She is that leaf that gets blown about by the latest gust. 
She is lonely, very self centered and selfish. The man across the street has given her some respite from her 'unhappy' life. He has become a pleasant distraction. A dream man.
She acts a teenager at thirty-some years old. Some people are their emotions, not their reasoned self.
She lacks perspective and sufficient empathy with regards to you. The shame factor.....it seems lacking.

This situation that you are enduring is not something to be embarrassed about. 
Fifty percent of couples get divorced. 
It happens. 

You are not meant for each other. It is simple as that.
Painful, yet simple.

After divorce, you will do just fine. 
Just seek out some lady that sees you for who you are and appreciates you.

Avoid the bitter and angry fruit. You cannot sweeten them. 
Alas, no one can.

Even riches and a parade of attractive suitors cannot, this deed accomplish.





[THM]- THRD


----------



## Livvie

SunCMars said:


> Mr.Married said:
> 
> 
> 
> Elvis has left the building
> 
> 
> 
> If internet strangers can drive you away, is it no wonder you are miserable.
> 
> Sorry, we will not sit idly by and commiserate with you. We will sympathize with you only so much.
> 
> On leaving us in the lurch...
> If this were your first thread you would be accused of being a baiter, an instigator.
> 
> You are not this, I presume?
> 
> The thing about the Internet Age, everything you have written in the past comes back to haunt you. The film age did this to a lesser extent and only affected more famous people.
> 
> This drives flip-flopping politicians crazy. You are 'not' a flip-flopper in word and deeds. You are consistent in your words.
> 
> Come out of your corner and face us strangers. We do not live with you, your wife does.
> 
> If you only want to vent here and not make those necessary changes highlighted here, you are going to relive your own Ground Hog day, e.g., the same sad story every day.
> 
> You have given up on us.
> Your wife has given up on you.
> 
> We have not 'yet' given up on you.
> 
> We enjoy seeing justice served.
> 
> What would this justice look like for 'most' of us.
> 
> One of two scenarios.
> 
> 1) Your wife realizes what she is doing to her marriage and mends her ways. This, of course, would be the ideal solution for both of you. This would require you to make some of those recommended changes in your response to her and her errant and wayward ways.
> 
> 2) You cease being a doormat to her. You 'are' a nice guy. She takes advantage of this and disrespects you at every turn. You then do some serious introspection and either change (unlikely) or divorce her. She no longer loves or respects you. At best, you are her husband, she likes you for being a father to the children, nothing more.
> 
> But, she is not 'this'.
> 
> Your wife is weak.
> 
> She is unhappy.
> She is angry with her situation in life and her choice in a husband. But, she does not have the guts to end it....properly.
> She is that leaf that gets blown about by the latest gust.
> She is lonely, very self centered and selfish. The man across the street has given her some respite from her 'unhappy' life. He has become a pleasant distraction. A dream man.
> She acts a teenager at thirty-some years old. Some people are their emotions, not their reasoned self.
> She lacks perspective and sufficient empathy with regards to you. The shame factor.....it seems lacking.
> 
> This situation that you are enduring is not something to be embarrassed about.
> Fifty percent of couples get divorced.
> It happens.
> 
> You are not meant for each other. It is simple as that.
> Painful, yet simple.
> 
> After divorce, you will do just fine.
> Just seek out some lady that sees you for who you are and appreciates you.
> 
> Avoid the bitter and angry fruit. You cannot sweeten them.
> Alas, no one can.
> 
> Even riches and a parade of attractive suitors cannot, this deed accomplish.
> 
> [THM]- THRD
Click to expand...

This is really really good advice.


----------



## skerzoid

NickTheChemist said:


> I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


*Talk time is over. * If you want to save this marriage, *you have to be willing to lose it*, & she has to believe you are willing to lose it!

*1. Re-read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" if you haven't read it already.*

*2. Stop asking her to stop flirting.* You are doing the "Pick-me dance." *Women really are turned off by weakness.*

*3. Demand that he not be at the house when you are not there.*

*4. See a lawyer to learn your rights. * It may be divorce time. Nothing wakes a wayward spouse like divorce papers. *See if she laughs that off.*

*5. Get a VAR or 2 or 3 (Voice Activated Recorder). *Set one up where they hang out and another in the bedroom.

*6. Check phone records and texts.*

*7. Consider getting a STD exam.*

*8. Talk to the other spouse about your concerns.*

*9. Women are attracted to strength, courage, and decisive action.* *So far, you have not shown much of that.* 

*10. Begin the 180 and do it religiously. * Here is a link: https://couplestherapyinc.com/act-toward-cheating-spouse/

*11. You need therapy for your codependency issues. * Better seek IC.


----------



## Stormguy2018

It wouldn't surprise me if they have a PA going on - after all, kids have to take naps, right?


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> Hi. My wife stays home and 2 of our 3 children are home with her (oldest is in Kindergarten). The guy next door has become a buddy of mine (we’ll call him John for this forum), but the way he and my wife act together makes me very uncomfortable. I know that she is attracted to him and that’s fine—after all, we can’t control that, right?
> 
> I’ve talked with her twice now using “I feel” statements. i.e. “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And “I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way.
> 
> We used to have a group text that became me, my wife and him and now he’s texting my wife, but she is mum or secretive about it.
> 
> She has been very defensive when I have expressed my feelings and blamed me for something unrelated for which I was guilty (I knew about a bad situation I was in at work and didn’t tell her until I had to change departments—I thought I was protecting her from worry, but should have shared what I knew—that a manager was trying to get me fired.
> 
> 
> I wasn’t fired and career is still great.
> 
> Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?
> 
> I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing.
> 
> They’ll talk and laugh and ignore me, then she’ll often be much less talkative and guarded towards me.
> 
> We’re away with John and his family this weekend and it is more of the same—he and my wife are flirting and every time I turn around it seems that they are together—sitting together—talking.
> 
> This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)
> 
> There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.
> 
> I am a good and attractive husband, but her heart seems to be leading her towards him over me when we are both present. I feel like I’m a kid again and my girlfriend is smitten with the popular guy. It sucks. I’m just so sad because I love my wife and want to show my children a strong, faith-based marriage.
> 
> Ive shared with her that these things are hurtful to me and still they continue.
> 
> I am going to have to talk to my wife about John again. What do I say this time?


You are going about this all wrong. Your marriage is dying and you are playing the choose me game.

Read no more mr nice guy. 

Stop chasing her. 

Start working on you. 

Go out with friends. 

Go to the gym. 

Ignore the two of them. 

They have all the opportunity and time they need to have an affair. 

All it takes is 5 mins. 

You need to watch the house for when he comes over then give them 10 mins and walk in. 

Another poster did this and it took his wife a few minutes to open the room where his wife and friend were while he beat at the locked door. The kids were down for their nap.


----------



## ABHale

If my wife was doing this. 

Lawyer to draw up divorce and child custody plans.

Talk with POSOM’s wife and explain the situation. 

Hand the divorce/custody papers to my wife when she blows up from me talking with the pos’s wife saying “ if she wants to be with pos she has gotten her wish”. 

Start calling realtors to list the house in front of her.


----------



## ABHale

Ok Nick one question. 

How long has you wife and John been talking like they have?

I have gone back through your post over the last few years. 

YES - Your wife is having an affair with John. 

YES - It is a physical affair. 

She has been playing you this entire time. 

You have been trying for years to fix your marriage with no help what so ever from your wife. It is time to talk with the top 5 divorce lawyers in your area and choose the best one.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Please forgive me for taking days. I have read every reply. I am so very grateful for you strangers. If only you knew how right you were. 

I am terrified at the thought of being less present in the lives of my children. If it were not for them I would not be putting up with so much. And I am no marder—it just isn’t fair to them for a split. None of this was their choosing. 

My wife wants to work on our relationship so there is hope. 

I can say with certainty that my life is much better no due to the advice of all of you “strangers” thank you from the bottom of my over-loving sensitive heart.

My wife does seem generally happy and I believe that you hit the nail on the head with your guessing about her. 

I have an excellent career now and earn enough for us to live quite well in central Texas. We started out in poverty and have climbed out of it together. This year I’ll clear 100k, but she still seems to constantly worry over money. She worries so much that she wears herself out and I believe that talking to John is an escape from that. Not meaning to justify here, just trying to rationalize.

On our way home from the weekend after kids were asleep in the car she opened up about John a bit without prompting. Complaining about him being cranky. I lead her with questions to consider how their relationship looks from the outside. She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house. My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here. 

I should mention that the weather here is excellent and we all spend s lot of time outside when home.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Nick, do you think that your wife knew that you were suspicious and is trying to placate you at the moment? How can you be sure that she isn't lying to you and feeding you tidbits to keep you from finding out what really happened ?

Is she going to stop ? Stop having John over, stop flirting with him, just stop?


----------



## NickTheChemist

You are correct that I have been dealing with co-dependency issues. I am also aware that I tend to be anxiously attached. Some ****ed up **** in my childhood that I’ve had to confront and work through/accept. 

I wish I had worked through these issues and learned more about myself (and the types of people who tend to abuse a man of my nature) before I started dating as an adult.


----------



## NickTheChemist

No, I am not sure. She has not given me a reason to distrust her in 11 years and I want to believe that she is being genuine. It seemed genuine because she got nervous and seemed to be justifying the (EA?) situation while talking and also realizing how bad it all sounds.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Not freaked out, but sad at the situation and trying to be responsible and wise in how I handle myself. Thank you kindly for your response. 

It is possible that she is sexually active with him, but I do not think that she is.


----------



## NickTheChemist

She is sleeping—shall I go through here texts now? Seems like a horrible breach of trust/privacy. We use the same passcode, so she knows that I may access it


----------



## NickTheChemist

I am humbled by you interest and willingness to help. Thank you. I am sorry to disappoint you that I will not be making moves to file for a divorce at this time for the sake of my children. She is a great mother. We are friends and co-parent well. Of course I want much more, but I feel I gave up the right to make that divorce decision when we had children.


----------



## sokillme

Dude passive men get cheated on. Get to the bottom of this already.


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## NickTheChemist

We are all 31-33 and slim. I’m 6-1, 155 and nothing jiggles when I go for a run if you know what I mean. I used to model a bit. I doubt the attraction issue has anything to do with my appearance. More often than not at work I am deflecting the attention of women.

I work 45-50 hours a week and then care for kids/do housework and law work until 10pm every night. She passed over primary parenting responsibilities when I get home. 

I don’t talk to John’s wife except in the presence of John, so I honestly don’t know how she feels. She is at work during the school year and also in graduate school a couple evenings a week.


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> Please forgive me for taking days. I have read every reply. I am so very grateful for you strangers. If only you knew how right you were.
> 
> I am terrified at the thought of being less present in the lives of my children. If it were not for them I would not be putting up with so much. And I am no marder—it just isn’t fair to them for a split. None of this was their choosing.
> 
> Yep, you are living fear and teaching your kids it's ok to be a doormat. Is this how you want them to grow into?
> 
> My wife wants to work on our relationship so there is hope.
> 
> Words are meaningless
> 
> I can say with certainty that my life is much better no due to the advice of all of you “strangers” thank you from the bottom of my over-loving sensitive heart.
> 
> My wife does seem generally happy and I believe that you hit the nail on the head with your guessing about her.
> 
> Of course. She does whatever she wants. Who would want to be a cake eater?
> 
> I have an excellent career now and earn enough for us to live quite well in central Texas. We started out in poverty and have climbed out of it together. This year I’ll clear 100k, but she still seems to constantly worry over money. She worries so much that she wears herself out and I believe that talking to John is an escape from that. Not meaning to justify here, just trying to rationalize.
> 
> It's at least an EA. You are making Mr Nice Guy excuse so you don't havevtobaddress the issue
> 
> On our way home from the weekend after kids were asleep in the car she opened up about John a bit without prompting. Complaining about him being cranky. I lead her with questions to consider how their relationship looks from the outside. She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house. My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here.
> 
> You were any to passive. I'd have said we have a problem here. If you don't address it I will.
> 
> I should mention that the weather here is excellent and we all spend s lot of time outside when home.


It's pretty apparent you are conflict avoidant and would rather stand and watch your house burn down than throw a bucket of cold water on it.

You can't help yourself and you're here for a reason. No ones gonna do it got you bud.


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> She is sleeping—shall I go through here texts now? Seems like a horrible breach of trust/privacy. We use the same passcode, so she knows that I may access it


Still living in fear of your wife. You got a neighbor sticking his nose in when you aren't there and you know it's a problem. 

At least check your phone bill first. Are they communicating and how much?


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> We are all 31-33 and slim. I’m 6-1, 155 and nothing jiggles when I go for a run if you know what I mean. I used to model a bit. I doubt the attraction issue has anything to do with my appearance. More often than not at work I am deflecting the attention of women.
> 
> I work 45-50 hours a week and then care for kids/do housework and law work until 10pm every night. She passed over primary parenting responsibilities when I get home.
> 
> I don’t talk to John’s wife except in the presence of John, so I honestly don’t know how she feels. She is at work during the school year and also in graduate school a couple evenings a week.


Women are attracted to strength and it's their mindset more than physical. What are you exhibiting?


----------



## Marc878

You thank and agree with everyone but do nothing. What do you think that's gonna get you?

Look man. If it were me I'd tell her exactly what you've told us you're seeing. Then say "I don't like it and I was doing this you wouldn't either". So cut that **** out now. I don't want to have a discussion on this again. Do you understand?


----------



## Andy1001

NickTheChemist said:


> My wife wants to work on our relationship so there is hope.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On our way home from the weekend after kids were asleep in the car she opened up about John a bit without prompting. Complaining about him being cranky. I lead her with questions to consider how their relationship looks from the outside. She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house. My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here.
> .


So your wife was pissed because “John” was cranky on the vacation and you seem to see this as a sign she wants to work on your marriage. 
He was cranky because you and his wife were there to spoil the fun. And she was pissed for the same reasons. 
Nick you are being walked on here and you are blinded to this reality. 
I’m not you (thank god) but if I was I would tell John in no uncertain terms and in front of his wife to stay the hell away from my home.You can’t stop him seeing your wife because she doesn’t want to stop but at least stop providing them with a bed for their shenanigans. 
And let your wife and John know that you are going to take some legal advice “just in case”. 
Don’t say in case of what when she asks.
And start the 180 immediately.


----------



## Marc878

No one knows that your wife is cheating. But you need boundaries in a marriage.

You're uncomfortable enough to come here and air or vent your feelings. 

You need to be telling that to your wife. We can't


----------



## aine

Nick, you obviously sense something is up with the two of them.
VAR your house immediately, it will not take long to buy two and place them in strategic places hidden in the house. YOu can pick up their conversation.
Your reluctance to check her phone is telling, just do it. Forget about invasion of privacy, she has done more than enough to put you on notice to check for a threat.
You are supposed to be the leader of your home, if a burglar is coming in to steal your stuff, kidnap your kids, wouldn't you do something?
This neighbor is moving in on your turf and you are not comfortable, make it plain that you are not. Tell your wife, no more visits, no more BS. If she insists then give her papers. You need to stand up and be counted.
To be honest a strong, confident man who lays down the boundaries is as sexy as hell. You are acting like a wimp.


----------



## kenyaone

Friendship circuit you entered with your neighbor has taken a different turn that you didn't anticipate , whatever you have presented here shows that there is something sinister happening between your wife and John at your back. Shift of her emotional attachment to John is proof enough that something is happening or about to happen between the two of them. Her behavior of diverging your attention whenever you you raise your concerns about is another strong indicator of illicit affair between the two . Be bold and confront the in no uncertain terms, no how she'll try to play her usual gimmicks. Be strong and demand nothing, but the truth about the matter. 

Sent from my Lenovo X2-AP using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

Did John and your wife pair off on vacation? How'd that go?

How did she know he was cranky?


----------



## jlg07

Nick, you say " My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here. "

BUT in your first post you have this:
"Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?

I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing."

you SERIOUSLY believe your wife that he has NEVER come in to your house while you are not there? You've said it yourself he is always over there talking with her.
Follow the other advice -- get some VAR's and put them in your house -- even some of the mini cameras. I bet you will be surprised what you find.
Also, do NOT feel bad about checking her phone. You have the same passcode so that you CAN check the phones. She is also NOT acting in a trustworthy way, so you have every right to verify her actions at this point.

I think you are being WAY too passive and too trusting. Do some investigating (do NOT tell your wife). If you aren't up to it, get a PI to do it for you.


----------



## AliceA

IMO, trust your gut. Yours is screaming at you right now from what you've written, and even from the fact that you posted the question at all.

Her gut is screaming at her that she's not being honest with you, or herself, but she's trying to justify her actions because she doesn't want to stop. Maybe it's not physical yet, but one day he'll have laid in all the groundwork and it will be nothing for him to move it past the point of no return. I think you're both being naive.


----------



## manwithnoname

Just to be clear, when you are not home, John has been in your house, and in your wife. 

I'd put money on it.


----------



## manwithnoname

NickTheChemist said:


> No, I am not sure. *She has not given me a reason to distrust her in 11 years* and I want to believe that she is being genuine. It seemed genuine because she got nervous and seemed to be justifying the (EA?) situation while talking and also realizing how bad it all sounds.


How about the dirty dancing that took her a few years to come clean about?

Hire a P.I.


----------



## Blondilocks

Your wife isn't understanding the ramifications of her behavior. You live in Texas so you are one lucky fella - no alimony. Now, would be a good time to start discussing what type of job your wife will get when the other two kids start school. So she will be able to support herself should you ever decide to file for divorce.

Just putting the d word out there and the prospect of her having to give up her sahm role and support herself like so many other women may be a catalyst for change.

Also, the younger children are when a divorce happens - the easier it is on them.


----------



## farsidejunky

If anything is going to earn you your worst case scenario, it will be failure to act due to fear.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Marc878

Nick, if you can't figure out how to get out of the Mr Nice Guy bull**** this will be the rest of your life.

You want to live that way fine. Just remember you are choosing it.

Why?????? Do you like living like this????


----------



## StillSearching

Nick, Have you got the truth out of her?
Are you sure?
How do you know John hasn't been inside more than just your house?


----------



## FieryHairedLady

If she is a SAHM why does the primary parenting responsibilities shift to you at night? 

Yes you can help out with the kids at night, but primary seems odd. 

I see she is starting to feel guilty and realizing you and/or other people are noticing. She will be covering her tracks. Probably already deleted any evidence.


----------



## jsmart

Andy1001 said:


> So your wife was pissed because “John” was cranky on the vacation and you seem to see this as a sign she wants to work on your marriage.
> He was cranky because you and his wife were there to spoil the fun. And she was pissed for the same reasons.
> Nick you are being walked on here and you are blinded to this reality.
> I’m not you (thank god) but if I was *I would tell John in no uncertain terms and in front of his wife to stay the hell away from my home.You can’t stop him seeing your wife because she doesn’t want to stop but at least stop providing them with a bed for their shenanigans.
> And let your wife and John know that you are going to take some legal advice* “just in case”.
> Don’t say in case of what when she asks.
> And start the 180 immediately.


I totally agree. This dude is going to your house when you're not there and I'd bet money that she's going to his house too when his wife is not there. It is very likely that they have been Fing for months. Her being upset at the vacation was due to frustration of not being able to openly be with POS.

You need to confront this POS directly and in front of both wives so there's no confusion. Remove this fake veil of friendship off because it's only a cover for them to have access to each other.

I'm not advocating violence but you need to stand up for your family. Because of this dude you're possibly going to be a part time dad. The OBS is not going to leave him. So many times the BW, ends up being MORE attracted to her husband because he's seen as strong and in demand. Meanwhile your wife is repulsed by you because she sees you as weak.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> We are all 31-33 and slim. I’m 6-1, 155 and nothing jiggles when I go for a run if you know what I mean. I used to model a bit. I doubt the attraction issue has anything to do with my appearance. More often than not at work I am deflecting the attention of women.


You are making a quite common, but quite incorrect assumption about women. You think that they are motivated by the same things men are. You have brought up looks REPEATEDLY, about how good looking you are, how fit you are. Many, if not most, women don't pick a mate based on looks, not the way men do. If you look at all the threads on this forum, a good 80% of all the threads men start will include "my wife is gorgeous." If you look at the ones women start, almost none of them will discuss their husband's looks. Think about it. Men get part of their self esteem by 'catching' a good-looking woman; goes back to junior high school. 

Women pick mates based on other emotional needs (read His Needs Her Needs by Harley to better understand this) - financial stability, strength (both physical and mental), confidence, honesty. Goes back to caveman days when women had to pick the protector - or die. You're giving her the financial stability but you are FAILING MISERABLY in the mental strength and confidence areas. That's why she's attracted to John - he takes what he wants.

You told us 2 years ago that No More Mr Nice Guy was written for you and that you were incorporating it. Clearly you never did. You come across as a needy, insecure Nice Guy who'll tolerate almost anything from a wife who "regularly" (your words) berates you and refuses you sex. 

You want to fix this? Dust off that book and start changing YOU.


----------



## SunCMars

NickTheChemist said:


> She is sleeping—shall I go through here texts now? Seems like a horrible breach of trust/privacy. We use the same passcode, so she knows that I may access it


Yes, go through her phone and computer. Look for any apps that allow communication between parties. 

Look at her history on her computer. Look at her phones browser history.

And yes, check the phone bill. This will likely show many calls between the two, especially when you are not home, or his wife is not home either.

She has shown you she has loose boundaries, you owe it to your own peace of mind to check up on her activities and words.

Future meetups are likely to be pre-arranged.

You do not need to prove us wrong, you need to prove you are right.

In either case, what she is doing is dangerous to your marriage.

The fact that she is so openly friendly with this neighbor is 'stunning'. 

She is either naive' or careless, or heartless and horny, or all of the above.

The man wants in her fold. Be sure of that.

Others have told you to VAR and video camera record the house. 
The kitchen, the living room, a certain bedroom. 
Likely not the main bedroom?

Why are you not doing this?

Just doing this alone will answer all your doubts.

Stop confronting her and be a secret squirrel detective.





[THM]- Nemesis


----------



## Malaise

NickTheChemist said:


> No, I am not sure. *She has not given me a reason to distrust her in 11 years* and I want to believe that she is being genuine. It seemed genuine because she got nervous and seemed to be justifying the (EA?) situation while talking and also realizing how bad it all sounds.


You don't mistrust her now?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Your wife IS in an emotional affair with this man, and you are in denial about it. While your determination to stay with her for your children's sake seems admirable, it really isnt. Your kids dont need their dad playing martyr and falling on a sword while their mom screws the neighbor. Have some self respect and tell her in no uncertain terms that this crap stops NOW, that this is inappropriate and NOT ok with you, and also let Johnny boy know the same. Your wife will have tons more respect for you if you defend your marriage. If she decides that being his "friend" is more important than your feelings, and that you are being insecure and controlling, then let her know you are filing, and follow through. Anything else is weak, and woman despise weakness in their men.


----------



## MyRevelation

Unfortunately, all of our words are lost on BH’s like Nick.

BH’s like him remind me that ... “You can’t make chicken salad, out of chicken ****!”


----------



## BigDigg

Tangent side note - the whole 'staying together because of the kids' thing - just seems so misguided to me. Of course things will be different and perhaps not ideal. It would slay me too to not be around to tuck my boys in every night. 

But these days I spend more time thinking about what example I set and the responsibility to raise them strong with a moral compass. And I see them watching me and mimicking me all the time. I can't think of a worse example to set than simply existing powerless in a loveless marriage where the kids watch mom bat eyes at the neighbor man, afraid to speak or stand up and complicit via inaction. 

Op knows his situation better than any of us...but if listening...don't automatically rule out what needs to be done on their behalf...it's weak and convenient excuse. But you're teaching them everyday. Remember that.


----------



## RubyRing

SunCMars said:


> If internet strangers can drive you away, is it no wonder you are miserable.
> 
> Sorry, we will not sit idly by and commiserate with you. We will sympathize with you only so much.
> 
> On leaving us in the lurch...
> If this were your first thread you would be accused of being a baiter, an instigator.
> 
> You are not this, I presume?
> 
> The thing about the Internet Age, everything you have written in the past comes back to haunt you. The film age did this to a lesser extent and only affected more famous people.
> 
> This drives flip-flopping politicians crazy. You are 'not' a flip-flopper in word and deeds. You are consistent in your words.
> 
> Come out of your corner and face us strangers. We do not live with you, your wife does.
> 
> If you only want to vent here and not make those necessary changes highlighted here, you are going to relive your own Ground Hog day, e.g., the same sad story every day.
> 
> You have given up on us.
> Your wife has given up on you.
> 
> We have not 'yet' given up on you.
> 
> We enjoy seeing justice served.
> 
> What would this justice look like for 'most' of us.
> 
> One of two scenarios.
> 
> 1) Your wife realizes what she is doing to her marriage and mends her ways. This, of course, would be the ideal solution for both of you. This would require you to make some of those recommended changes in your response to her and her errant and wayward ways.
> 
> 2) You cease being a doormat to her. You 'are' a nice guy. She takes advantage of this and disrespects you at every turn. You then do some serious introspection and either change (unlikely) or divorce her. She no longer loves or respects you. At best, you are her husband, she likes you for being a father to the children, nothing more.
> 
> But, she is not 'this'.
> 
> Your wife is weak.
> 
> She is unhappy.
> She is angry with her situation in life and her choice in a husband. But, she does not have the guts to end it....properly.
> She is that leaf that gets blown about by the latest gust.
> She is lonely, very self centered and selfish. The man across the street has given her some respite from her 'unhappy' life. He has become a pleasant distraction. A dream man.
> She acts a teenager at thirty-some years old. Some people are their emotions, not their reasoned self.
> She lacks perspective and sufficient empathy with regards to you. The shame factor.....it seems lacking.
> 
> This situation that you are enduring is not something to be embarrassed about.
> Fifty percent of couples get divorced.
> It happens.
> 
> You are not meant for each other. It is simple as that.
> Painful, yet simple.
> 
> After divorce, you will do just fine.
> Just seek out some lady that sees you for who you are and appreciates you.
> 
> Avoid the bitter and angry fruit. You cannot sweeten them.
> Alas, no one can.
> 
> Even riches and a parade of attractive suitors cannot, this deed accomplish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- THRD


WOW ! This describes the reverse situation in my former marriage to a tea, just reverse the genders so it reads . . .

Your husband is weak. 


He is unhappy. 
he is angry with his situation in life and his choice in a wife. But, he does not have the guts to end it....properly.
he is that leaf that gets blown about by the latest gust. 
he is lonely, very self centered and selfish. The woman he works with has given him some respite . . .

I am so glad that I finally let go of my ex, and am now very happily re-married to a wonderful man.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Please forgive me for taking days. I have read every reply. I am so very grateful for you strangers. If only you knew how right you were.
> 
> I am terrified at the thought of being less present in the lives of my children. If it were not for them I would not be putting up with so much. And I am no marder—it just isn’t fair to them for a split. None of this was their choosing.
> 
> My wife wants to work on our relationship so there is hope.
> 
> I can say with certainty that my life is much better no due to the advice of all of you “strangers” thank you from the bottom of my over-loving sensitive heart.
> 
> My wife does seem generally happy and I believe that you hit the nail on the head with your guessing about her.
> 
> I have an excellent career now and earn enough for us to live quite well in central Texas. We started out in poverty and have climbed out of it together. This year I’ll clear 100k, but she still seems to constantly worry over money. She worries so much that she wears herself out and I believe that talking to John is an escape from that. Not meaning to justify here, just trying to rationalize.
> 
> On our way home from the weekend after kids were asleep in the car she opened up about John a bit without prompting. Complaining about him being cranky. I lead her with questions to consider how their relationship looks from the outside. She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house. My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here.
> 
> I should mention that the weather here is excellent and we all spend s lot of time outside when home.


The best thing you can do for your children, is keep your marriage healthy, and vibrant. NOT pansy-foot around, trying not to ruffle any feathers, or allow your wife to continue being a flirt with your neighbors.

Her worrying about how she's going to spend $100,000 is not anything close to an excuse for her confiding in another married man. She is giving him the emotional intimacy that belongs to you. This is how physical affairs begin. Stop trying to rationalize. It's inappropriate. Period. Put a stop to it, before they take things physical (if they haven't already). You should not be ok with any of this. You're sitting there "trying to understand" why your wife is flirting with another man, when you should be angry. Grow a spine, I tell her that John is no longer on the menu.

Put the nanny cams in the house as we suggested, to keep an eye on what John and your wife do when he's in your house. You need to stop being so gullible, and take control of this situation. And in order to do that, you need to know exactly what's going on.



3Xnocharm said:


> Your wife IS in an emotional affair with this man, and you are in denial about it. While your determination to stay with her for your children's sake seems admirable, it really isnt. Your kids dont need their dad playing martyr and falling on a sword while their mom screws the neighbor. Have some self respect and tell her in no uncertain terms that this crap stops NOW, that this is inappropriate and NOT ok with you, and also let Johnny boy know the same. Your wife will have tons more respect for you if you defend your marriage. If she decides that being his "friend" is more important than your feelings, and that you are being insecure and controlling, then let her know you are filing, and follow through. Anything else is weak, and woman despise weakness in their men.


+1 Grow a set, and take control of what's yours. Stop being the naive guy who believes the that man your wife flirts with all the time, never comes into your house while your gone.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

MyRevelation said:


> Unfortunately, all of our words are lost on BH’s like Nick.
> 
> BH’s like him remind me that ... “You can’t make chicken salad, out of chicken ****!”


Its cringe worthy.


----------



## SunCMars

RubyRing said:


> WOW ! This describes the reverse situation in my former marriage to a tea, just reverse the genders so it reads . . .
> 
> Your husband is weak.
> 
> 
> He is unhappy.
> he is angry with his situation in life and his choice in a wife. But, he does not have the guts to end it....properly.
> he is that leaf that gets blown about by the latest gust.
> he is lonely, very self centered and selfish. The woman he works with has given him some respite . . .
> 
> I am so glad that I finally let go of my ex, and am now very happily re-married to a wonderful man.


:|:surprise::smile2::grin2:

You beat the odds!

In these cases, most odds 'are' overcome-able.

Nice, decent people have a leg up on those that are not... this. (as written above).
They can quickly find another soul to rub loving noses with, and mingle dreams, wit, with.

The other person also has a leg up.
Like a pooch, they pee on other peoples parade.

Bless you!





[THM]- THRD


----------



## TAMAT

Nick,

This stood out to me.


*Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day*

Salesmen are professional seducers it what they do 40 hours a week. What is it that he sells or does he in fact sell anything.

For God sakes get some cameras, GPS and microphones you will have your answer.


----------



## jsmart

I think we are doing a disservice to the OP by talking about his situation as being an EA. It is VERY likely that this has been a sexual PA for months. All you TAMers know that with the kind of access that living across the street combined with OM working remotely with a wife that works out of the house and OP's wife being a SAHM that they are very likely having sex multiple times a week. 

We had a TAMer that was former WW describe in detail how she sneaked around to have sex or perform oral with her affair partner that was also the BH's "friend." She even shared the excuses that was given to her BH where in one occasion they were nearly busted doing it in the laundry room. 

OP needs to realize that all of that sneaking around being bad adds to the excitement , making it very likely that the PA is VERY sexual. The WW's inner hamster brain sees the OM as a confident and daring man that goes after what he wants. Even risking his life to take her while she will perceive her husband as being weak for allowing another man to have her. I can just imagine the dopamine hit his WW would get from a quick stolen kiss or OM copping a feel when both betrayed spouses are feet away but out of the line of sight.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Var the outside too, backyard. They may go out there for a private convo and spill.


----------



## MEM2020

Women are all different. And that is a beautiful thing. That said, certain very specific generalizations apply to almost all women.

The women I have met, loathe weakness in adult men. A wife, who is entering an EA in plain sight - expects her husband to react. The best reaction is a calm, unflinching description of reality. Nick to N2:
- The risk of marrying someone who doesn’t really do it for you, is that you meet someone who actually does do it for you, at an inconvenient time. Like now, with young kids.
- While you don’t choose who you fall in love with, you do choose how to end a marriage when it has run its course. I’ll be sad for a while, but on the bright side, I will have a chance at finding someone who actually loves me, and wants to be with me.





NickTheChemist said:


> I am humbled by you interest and willingness to help. Thank you. I am sorry to disappoint you that I will not be making moves to file for a divorce at this time for the sake of my children. She is a great mother. We are friends and co-parent well. Of course I want much more, but I feel I gave up the right to make that divorce decision when we had children.


----------



## NickTheChemist

They did for a bit—they are friends and get along well. They rode the seadoo together for a while. Wife later told me she was complaining/venting about John being cranky


----------



## NickTheChemist

NickTheChemist said:


> They did for a bit—they are friends and get along well. They rode the seadoo together for a while. Wife later told me she was complaining/venting about John being cranky


By that I mean that John’s wife was complaining of John being cranky


----------



## manfromlamancha

jlg07 said:


> Nick, you say " *My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home, and I do believe her*, but I’d rather he not come over at all and hang around when I’m not here. "
> 
> BUT in your first post you have this:
> "Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day while his wife is working his and kids are in school. *He comes over to my house a lot (1+ times a week) while I’m not home and his wife is gone*. I’ve been telling myself it’s fine because the kids are with her and nothing would happen..... but that is so the wrong reason to think nothing will happen, right?
> 
> I want to believe and trust my wife and I want her to have male friends, but this one makes me uncomfortable because he seems to have hee complete attention when we get the families together or when I come home and he’s there talking with my wife while my kids are playing."
> 
> you SERIOUSLY believe your wife that he has NEVER come in to your house while you are not there? You've said it yourself he is always over there talking with her.
> Follow the other advice -- get some VAR's and put them in your house -- even some of the mini cameras. I bet you will be surprised what you find.
> Also, do NOT feel bad about checking her phone. You have the same passcode so that you CAN check the phones. She is also NOT acting in a trustworthy way, so you have every right to verify her actions at this point.
> 
> I think you are being WAY too passive and too trusting. Do some investigating (do NOT tell your wife). If you aren't up to it, get a PI to do it for you.


So which is it Nick ? Does he or doesn't he come over when you are not there ? This is really important on many levels. First is that it gives them plenty of opportunity. Second is you seem to be denying this to yourself!!! Third is, if the kids are there, that is beyond disrespectful at this stage!!


----------



## Cooper

NickTheChemist said:


> I am humbled by you interest and willingness to help. Thank you. I am sorry to disappoint you that I will not be making moves to file for a divorce at this time for the sake of my children. She is a great mother. We are friends and co-parent well. Of course I want much more, but I feel I gave up the right to make that divorce decision when we had children.


I'm sorry for you then. I was permissive with my wife (ex) because I too felt an obligation to be a dutiful husband and father. You will regret not taking a hard stance on this.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> They did for a bit—*they are friends and get along well*. They rode the seadoo together for a while. Wife later told me she was complaining/venting about John being cranky


What they are, is affair partners. Your wife is involved in at least an emotional affair, and very possibly a physical one.

Stop being weak. Stop, being the "nice guy". Stop being ok with your wife riding a seadoo, whatever the hell that is, with the man she flirts with. Wait, WTH, a seadoo is a jetski? You let your wife hop onto the back of a jetski with another man?

Dude, you need to get your head out of your butt, and pull your crud together.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I think W was on a Seadoo with John's wife....thats where she was griping about him being cranky...


----------



## BioFury

3Xnocharm said:


> I think W was on a Seadoo with John's wife....thats where she was griping about him being cranky...


I hope you're right. Someone asked him if his wife and John had hung out by themselves, or together, during the vaca. Nick then stated "they" rode the seadoo, so I assumed it was John that Nick's wife had her arms wrapped around. But your story line makes sense. Perhaps Nick will clarify.


----------



## TRy

Andy1001 said:


> REDACTED
> You are so conflict avoidant it is sickening,even if he can kick your ass as least try and act like a man instead of this whiny child that you are showing here.


 Although false bravado sounds cool, telling someone to physically assault someone is really poor advice. All it does is hand the power of the law and the courts over to the cheating spouse and their affair partner. I agree that the OP needs to take more action, but think that this should be done with real advice.


----------



## Andy1001

TRy said:


> Although false bravado sounds cool, telling someone to physically assault someone is really poor advice. All it does is hand the power of the law and the courts over to the cheating spouse and their affair partner. I agree that the OP needs to take more action, but think that this should be done with real advice.


I would ask him to leave my home,if he didn’t I would feel free to help him on his way. I have met lots of men like John,being nice doesn’t work. 
John is a player and, like mushrooms they thrive in the dark. Bringing things out into the open is the last thing he wants. Having him explain to his wife that a jealous husband punched him would be the final nail in this affair. 
And believe me it’s not false bravado.I am quite capable of backing up my words with actions if it were ever necessary.


----------



## jsmart

Andy1001 said:


> Answer this Nick.
> What would be the odds of you physically throwing your wife’s boyfriend out of your house?
> *Your wife is crying out for a man she can respect. Hint: It’s not you*.
> If this was the wife of most men of my acquaintance, John would have a sore jaw before this day was out.
> You are so conflict avoidant it is sickening,even if he can kick your ass as least try and act like a man instead of this whiny child that you are showing here.
> It’s a cliche but in this instance it’s very apt. Grow a set.


When you found out she was having inappropriate conversation months ago and didn't immediately and strongly put the kabash on that, you signaled weakness to her and submissiveness to him. This guy has become so embolden now, which further turns your WW on and at the same time further repulses her against you.

Earlier you mentioned that you're above average in looks as though that is a major factor for a woman. It's not. Yes, it's a factor but far from the main one. Confidence and high status are the major pulls for a woman. This guy is pretty much openly pursuing your wife, is displaying dominance over you, which in your wife's eyes will mark him as having higher status than you. 

Like I said in an earlier post, you need to confront this POS in front of both wives. Forget about this fake family friendship. This guy is highly likely banging your wife and the mother of your kids or at the very least trying to. Put a stop to all of this. Or just prepare yourself to have a broken family with you being relegated to being a part time dad.


----------



## Marc878

Nick knows what to do but is choosing to do nothing so nothing changes.

You have another man in your marriage. 

Did you even check your phone bill?


----------



## TRy

Andy1001 said:


> I would ask him to leave my home,if he didn’t I would feel free to help him on his way.


You have now modified your position from a very definitive statement that "If this was the wife of most men of my acquaintance, John would have a sore jaw before this day was out", to a much weaker you "would feel free to help him on his way" (pushing him out but not necessarily hitting him in the face), but only if John did not leave the home when asked. If John did leave when asked, there would be no way that "John would have a sore jaw before this day was out". Thus confirming that your first statement was indeed "false bravado".

Concerning your new suggestion, if a husband asks the other man ("OM") to leave their home, and the cheating spouse tells the husband that he is being rude to her guest and that she invited him in, the minute that the husband lays a hand on the OM as he tries to "help him on his way", the OM and the cheating spouse have the husband over a legal barrel should the husband move for divorce. Besides possible arrest, a restraining order booting the husband from the family home and limited child visitation right would be a possible outcome. If anyone is serious about real action and starting divorce proceedings, they need to smarten up and start thinking strategically instead of emotionally.


----------



## SongoftheSouth

Nick do a little more spying put a recorder in a discrete location and maybe you can catch one of their conversations. I am sorry to say I am in agreement with others that think there may be more to this. Hope there isnt but....


----------



## SecondWind

Nick, I'm a married woman, and if I realized I was attracted to a neighbor or even a friend of my husband's I would be amicable but would stay away from them as much as possible. I would never allow myself to be alone with them or engage in a personal conversation.

Your wife is flirting with danger.


----------



## NickTheChemist

TAMAT said:


> Nick,
> 
> This stood out to me.
> 
> 
> *Back to John—he is in sales and home a lot during the day*
> 
> Salesmen are professional seducers it what they do 40 hours a week. What is it that he sells or does he in fact sell anything.
> 
> For God sakes get some cameras, GPS and microphones you will have your answer.


I’m being intentionally vague. He travels some and works within local government to bring business into our community. While he has an office, He’s told me he can pretty much work from anywhere and he is home a lot


----------



## ConanHub

TRy said:


> Although false bravado sounds cool, telling someone to physically assault someone is really poor advice. All it does is hand the power of the law and the courts over to the cheating spouse and their affair partner. I agree that the OP needs to take more action, but think that this should be done with real advice.


A man like OP probably can't impliment this advice. A man like me can, and has.

OP is weak and conflict avoidant so he won't even stand up for what is right, much less know how to navigate a physical altercation.
@Andy1001 knows how and so do I. His post was more a challenge for OP to start manning up.

I guarantee anyone with an I.Q. comparable with cabbage, who tried to invade my family would be "educated" quickly and sent off.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, it isn't your arena but it is the arena of men who know how to effectively use intimidation and violence within the bounds of society.


----------



## ConanHub

TRy said:


> You have now modified your position from a very definitive statement that "If this was the wife of most men of my acquaintance, John would have a sore jaw before this day was out", to a much weaker you "would feel free to help him on his way" (pushing him out but not necessarily hitting him in the face), but only if John did not leave the home when asked. If John did leave when asked, there would be no way that "John would have a sore jaw before this day was out". Thus confirming that your first statement was indeed "false bravado".
> 
> Concerning your new suggestion, if a husband asks the other man ("OM") to leave their home, and the cheating spouse tells the husband that he is being rude to her guest and that she invited him in, the minute that the husband lays a hand on the OM as he tries to "help him on his way", the OM and the cheating spouse have the husband over a legal barrel should the husband move for divorce. Besides possible arrest, a restraining order booting the husband from the family home and limited child visitation right would be a possible outcome. If anyone is serious about real action and starting divorce proceedings, they need to smarten up and start thinking strategically instead of emotionally.


WOW! You are seriously wimpy and not at all included in the arena of physical confrontation.

Andy isn't stupid as you are portraying him and neither am I.

He is a successful business owner and I make 6 figures and have for most of my adult life.

We are both capable of legal violence. You apparently aren't so maybe stick to what you know?

You are right to know that OP is way too much of a pushover to attempt this but Andy was just pointing out that his balls have been removed from his body some time ago.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> I’m being intentionally vague. He travels some and works within local government to bring business into our community. While he has an office, He’s told me he can pretty much work from anywhere and he is home a lot


What he does for a living is immaterial to the greater issues at hand. Namely, that your wife is involved with him. How are you addressing this? Have you purchased nanny cams as yet? Have you told your wife you don't want John around any longer?


----------



## NickTheChemist

MyRevelation said:


> Unfortunately, all of our words are lost on BH’s like Nick.
> 
> BH’s like him remind me that ... “You can’t make chicken salad, out of chicken ****!”


Geez. There is a lot at stake here.


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> I am humbled by you interest and willingness to help. Thank you. I am sorry to disappoint you that I will not be making moves to file for a divorce at this time for the sake of my children. She is a great mother. We are friends and co-parent well. Of course I want much more, but I feel I gave up the right to make that divorce decision when we had children.


What is would impact your kids more. 

Growing up in a home where they can’t see two parents loving one another. 

Or

Growing up in homes where they are loved. Also have the possibility of seeing what loving parents look like.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Marc878 said:


> Nick knows what to do but is choosing to do nothing so nothing changes.
> 
> You have another man in your marriage.
> 
> Did you even check your phone bill?


I will take action. She has been sick with strep. 

My plan is to face it head on again. If she isn’t guilty that she is making me feel this way then that is a huge problem. 

I think that what is going on started innocently, but very quickly became an EA. I was strong in condemning it the first time and she even cried and talked the whole I’m a horrible wife I can’t believe you’d even think this of me, but that later became “how dare you condemn me when you’re lying about your career situation.”


----------



## NickTheChemist

BioFury said:


> What they are, is affair partners. Your wife is involved in at least an emotional affair, and very possibly a physical one.
> 
> Stop being weak. Stop, being the "nice guy". Stop being ok with your wife riding a seadoo, whatever the hell that is, with the man she flirts with. Wait, WTH, a seadoo is a jetski? You let your wife hop onto the back of a jetski with another man?
> 
> Dude, you need to get your head out of your butt, and pull your crud together.


Hell no! She was on the jet ski with John’s wife. I didn’t make that clear. She rode with me and John’s wife, not with John


----------



## sokillme

NickTheChemist said:


> Geez. There is a lot at stake here.


Yeah there is and you are passively letting your whole life blow up. Look life takes courage, being a Man takes courage, being a husband takes courage. 

Presumably your wife pledged herself to you as a part of your vows. She is now giving that to someone else. You have to decide are you going to take what is yours or at least fight for it or not. You are not asking for anything she didn't give you remember? 

I don't mean fight the guy or your wife, I mean STAND THE **** UP FOR YOURSELF! 

Straight up ask your wife, does she still want to be married. 

**** if it were me my wife would be looking for a job like yesterday. The kids would be going to daycare. Your wife is a spoiled child, which seems to happen to a lot of spouses whose spouses do all the working. Staying at home breads entitlement and sets up a parent child dynamic. Well it's time for Dad to put his foot down. 

The thing you don't get is in the long run your wife will admire you for it. She wants you to have a stake in her, not be a passive puppy. 

I posted this on another thread but my wife actually thanked me for not being a push over the other day. **** YEAH! It's not easy for me to do that but I do because SHE NEEDS ME TO, even if she doesn't say it. She likes it. THAT IS ATTRACTIVE TO WOMEN.

If it were me I would be stopping by that guys house after work and asking his wife why he is spending so much time hanging out with YOUR wife. 

GET YOUR **** TOGETHER DUDE. STAND UP FOR YOURSELF!


----------



## NickTheChemist

BioFury said:


> I hope you're right. Someone asked him if his wife and John had hung out by themselves, or together, during the vaca. Nick then stated "they" rode the seadoo, so I assumed it was John that Nick's wife had her arms wrapped around. But your story line makes sense. Perhaps Nick will clarify.


She didn’t ride with him at all. They weren’t alone together at all. At times she’d be talking with him while I’m changing diapers and running after our children and I’d ask her for help. It sucked


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> We are all 31-33 and slim. I’m 6-1, 155 and nothing jiggles when I go for a run if you know what I mean. I used to model a bit. I doubt the attraction issue has anything to do with my appearance. More often than not at work I am deflecting the attention of women.
> 
> I work 45-50 hours a week and then care for kids/do housework and law work until 10pm every night. She passed over primary parenting responsibilities when I get home.
> 
> I don’t talk to John’s wife except in the presence of John, so I honestly don’t know how she feels. She is at work during the school year and also in graduate school a couple evenings a week.


Why???

Why all the house work and lawn???

I understand the kiddos but not everything else. 
I did the same thing with mine when I got home. But my wife took care of the house and I did the outdoor work. The only exception is when my wife wanted to mow.


----------



## manfromlamancha

manfromlamancha said:


> So which is it Nick ? Does he or doesn't he come over when you are not there ? This is really important on many levels. First is that it gives them plenty of opportunity. Second is you seem to be denying this to yourself!!! Third is, if the kids are there, that is beyond disrespectful at this stage!!


You still haven't answered this one yet, Nick? You have said in one post that he comes over when you are gone and in another, he doesn't come over when you are not there. So which is it ?


----------



## NickTheChemist

jsmart said:


> When you found out she was having inappropriate conversation months ago and didn't immediately and strongly put the kabash on that, you signaled weakness to her and submissiveness to him. This guy has become so embolden now, which further turns your WW on and at the same time further repulses her against you.
> 
> Earlier you mentioned that you're above average in looks as though that is a major factor for a woman. It's not. Yes, it's a factor but far from the main one. Confidence and high status are the major pulls for a woman. This guy is pretty much openly pursuing your wife, is displaying dominance over you, which in your wife's eyes will mark him as having higher status than you.
> 
> Like I said in an earlier post, you need to confront this POS in front of both wives. Forget about this fake family friendship. This guy is highly likely banging your wife and the mother of your kids or at the very least trying to. Put a stop to all of this. Or just prepare yourself to have a broken family with you being relegated to being a part time dad.


You’re right. You’re so right. I am conflict avoidant with my wife. No problem with conflict in almost any other interaction or relationship. I’m sure there’s more to unpack there. 

I feel she punished me when I confront her. In past times when I have confronted her and put a foot down about her disrespectful treatment then I got a days-long cold shoulder and a lot of hateful attitude.

It’s like she is much more willing than me to live in an ongoing ****ty fight. We haven’t had one of those in a while and maybe the next one is soon.

What’s the worst that could happen if I accuse her of an EA? If I’m going to confront her about it then I may as well, right?


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> I will take action. She has been sick with strep.
> 
> My plan is to face it head on again. If she isn’t guilty that she is making me feel this way then that is a huge problem.
> 
> I think that what is going on started innocently, but very quickly became an EA. I was strong in condemning it the first time and she even cried and talked the whole I’m a horrible wife I can’t believe you’d even think this of me, but that later became “how dare you condemn me when you’re lying about your career situation.”


Sorry man but it sounds like blameshifting to cover herself.

Do check your phone bill


----------



## NickTheChemist

manfromlamancha said:


> You still haven't answered this one yet, Nick? You have said in one post that he comes over when you are gone and in another, he doesn't come over when you are not there. So which is it
> 
> My wife and kids are outside a lot—especially after school—that’s when he’ll come over while I’m at work.
> 
> When I’m home he’ll do the same and I’ll invite him in. My wife said he doesn’t come in the house if I’m not home and I believe her.
> 
> Still, an emotional affair can happen over hours spent talking in my driveway/yard.


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> You’re right. You’re so right. I am conflict avoidant with my wife. No problem with conflict in almost any other interaction or relationship. I’m sure there’s more to unpack there.
> 
> I feel she punished me when I confront her. In past times when I have confronted her and put a foot down about her disrespectful treatment then I got a days-long cold shoulder and a lot of hateful attitude.
> 
> When you take that **** you are teaching them how they can treat you. She learned from you
> 
> It’s like she is much more willing than me to live in an ongoing ****ty fight. We haven’t had one of those in a while and maybe the next one is soon.
> 
> What’s the worst that could happen if I accuse her of an EA? If I’m going to confront her about it then I may as well, right?


You have choices on how you live. So far you always give her control so guess what. She is good. How do you like it?

You are the only one that can let that happen.


----------



## NickTheChemist

All of the phone account stuff is in my name, but I could also just access her phone. What am I looking for? (Other than inappropriate texts, of course)


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> She didn’t ride with him at all. They weren’t alone together at all. At times she’d be talking with him while I’m changing diapers and running after our children and I’d ask her for help. It sucked


Take a look at how much effort you're into the marriage versus her.

You may need to change that. You can do too much


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> All of the phone account stuff is in my name, but I could also just access her phone. What am I looking for? (Other than inappropriate texts, of course)


Go online to your account first and download the data. See how much they are texting and calling each other first. 

They usually have it setup where you can download and sort the data. I'd go back 6 months or so.

That's your first step. Mouth shut eyes and ears open. Do not tell her a thing yet.


----------



## Marc878

This should take you 15 minutes to 1/2 hour. That will clue you in on if they are contacting or not.


----------



## sokillme

NickTheChemist said:


> All of the phone account stuff is in my name, but I could also just access her phone. What am I looking for? (Other than inappropriate texts, of course)


Why does she need a phone, she can walk across the street?

Dude tell her to get a job. That is really the best thing you can do in this case. You are doing half the housework anyway. She is taking advantage of you.


----------



## TRy

ConanHub said:


> WOW! You are seriously wimpy and not at all included in the arena of physical confrontation.


 WOW! You are seriously not at all included in the arena of legal confrontation, and in the end, that is what divorce is.



ConanHub said:


> Andy isn't stupid as you are portraying him and neither am I.


 I never said that Andy was stupid, just wrong. You saying that I made him look stupid, just means that I had an obviously superior argument, so thank you for that.

As for you, if you look back, I have a long history of liking many of your prior posts because I agree with them; I just do not agree with this current set of posts. As an FYI, truly smart people rarely feel the need to tell people that they are not stupid.

Real Life: I know a husband that physically confronted the guy that was cheating with his wife. With the wife backing the lover, the police arrested the husband. The wife immediately used this arrest to say that she feared him and to get a restraining order against the husband to keep him away from her, the children, and their home. As leverage, she also threatened to have his firearms removed based on this fear, if he did not give her favorable divorce terms. Bottom line is that the husband won the physical confrontation, but lost in the divorce.


----------



## Marc878

If it is an EA Or PA any inappropriate texts will be deleted. Looking at her phone may not get you much but 1st. Things 1st


----------



## ABHale

I also did most of the cooking because I love to cook and then helped with clean up.


----------



## NickTheChemist

ABHale said:


> I also did most of the cooking because I love to cook and then helped with clean up.


Me too 🤦🏼*♂


----------



## NickTheChemist

BigToe said:


> I think given the extent of the friendship (with everyone involved) it's going to be difficult to walk away or end it. Certainly your wife and John are not going to feel they need to end the friendship. I think you should have an honest and open talk with John first, telling him you don't want to ruin your friendship but he needs to be YOUR friend, not your wifes. Then talk with your wife the same way and tell her how things "appear" just as you have told it to this forum. Tell her you don't wish to be in the position you find yourself now and need her to reign things in.
> 
> I tell this to anyone who will listen...we all experience temptations in our lives, and NOBODY is immune from it. The best way to avoid temptation is to avoid putting yourself in a position that invites it. If you love your partner, it's never an issue to "behave" in a fashion that provides them security and peace of mind regarding the relationship.


This is insightful and wise. Thank you. I don’t think it’s right to bring his wife into it without first talking to John and my wife.


----------



## NickTheChemist

zookeeper said:


> Why in hell would you want that?
> 
> There is only one thing a male friend can offer a married woman that a female friend can't and she should only be getting that from you.


Poor writing on my part. I want her to be able to interact with common friends, neighbors.


----------



## AandM

ConanHub said:


> A man like OP probably can't impliment this advice. A man like me can, and has.
> 
> OP is weak and conflict avoidant so he won't even stand up for what is right, much less know how to navigate a physical altercation.
> 
> @Andy1001 knows how and so do I. His post was more a challenge for OP to start manning up.
> 
> I guarantee anyone with an I.Q. comparable with cabbage, who tried to invade my family would be "educated" quickly and sent off.
> 
> If you don't know what I'm talking about, it isn't your arena but it is the arena of men who know how to effectively use intimidation and violence within the bounds of society.


What are these bounds of society that you mean?


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Geez. There is a lot at stake here.


There _is_ a lot at stake. And I possibly understand how you feel. You may be afraid that if you create a boundary ("no more John"), that you might lose her. But dude, if you do nothing, and continue letting her, and John, and whoever else, violate your personal boundaries, then she will have no respect for you. No respect = no love. No respect = no desire. And no love, and no desire = no marriage.



NickTheChemist said:


> She didn’t ride with him at all. They weren’t alone together at all. At times she’d be talking with him while I’m changing diapers and running after our children and I’d ask her for help. It sucked


When you asked for help, how did she respond?



NickTheChemist said:


> You’re right. You’re so right. I am conflict avoidant with my wife. No problem with conflict in almost any other interaction or relationship. I’m sure there’s more to unpack there.
> 
> I feel she punished me when I confront her. In past times when I have confronted her and put a foot down about her disrespectful treatment then I got a days-long cold shoulder and a lot of hateful attitude.
> 
> It’s like she is much more willing than me to live in an ongoing ****ty fight. We haven’t had one of those in a while and maybe the next one is soon.
> 
> What’s the worst that could happen if I accuse her of an EA? If I’m going to confront her about it then I may as well, right?


It's simple. Your relationship with your wife is your most important one. You care about her, and want things between you to be pleasant. You are thus naturally wary of upsetting her, and creating emotional distance between you via confrontation. But what that tells me, is that she doesn't respond well to criticism, or boundary setting. If it were otherwise, you wouldn't be as afraid of doing so. You could have a healthy and productive conversation, without her giving you the cold shoulder, or creating an issue between you.

Think of the cold shoulder, and hateful attitude, as a test dude. She's like a toddler, testing your resolve, finding the limits. When you're setting boundaries, you need to think about them beforehand, and be sure they're fully flushed out. Once you set them, it's imperative that you stand your ground. If you give way after a few days of cold shoulder treatment, what does that communicate to her? That you're too weak to maintain your own boundaries, and lack the self-respect to require others to treat you with deference. Be strong. Become a force to be reckoned with. Stop being the man she can walk all over. *Stand. Your. Ground.*

*Do not accuse her of an EA*. There's nothing to be gained by doing so at this time. Buy the nanny cams, and install them in all the room previously mentioned. This will provide you with proof, over whether she is lying to you about the nature of her and John's interactions. You cannot continue to deal with this situation from a place of ignorance.


----------



## Robbie1234

ConanHub said:


> WOW! You are seriously wimpy and not at all included in the arena of physical confrontation.
> 
> Andy isn't stupid as you are portraying him and neither am I.
> 
> He is a successful business owner and I make 6 figures and have for most of my adult life.
> 
> We are both capable of legal violence. You apparently aren't so maybe stick to what you know?
> 
> You are right to know that OP is way too much of a pushover to attempt this but Andy was just pointing out that his balls have been removed from his body some time ago.


 @ConanHub I have great respect for both yourself and @Andy1001 but in this case it's you guys who are missing the point. 
Guys like you two don't understand guys like the op. You will never be in his situation because Alpha males wouldn't allow another man to get as close to their wives as Nick has and their wives wouldn't put themselves in this situation to start with.They know that they have too much to lose and wouldn't be attracted to a player like John anyway. Why have a burger when you have steak at home. 
Nick is a soft touch and as Andy said he is totally conflict avoidant. If this isn't an affair and doesn't become one it will be because Nick's wife doesn't want it,his own opinion doesn't matter.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Your wife and John are showing all indications that they are in a romantic relationship.

"Friends" don't text that much.

You demonstrate lower value by doing her work and yours, so she can hang and talk more with John. This is unattractive to her. You are very tentatitve about how you feel, you worry so much about your wife's feelings and doing the politically correct thing (I want her to have male friends). But the betrayal of her caring more about John than you probably didn't directly come from that. Though I'm pretty sure behind their back John is dissing you. The secrecy is part of the thrill. It's fun to be in on the secret. Your wife may have been feeling a little blah with three young kids and you gone and not really staying in touch during the day, then this "safe" married guy hung out with her and played his game on your wife. There is something to be said about being the chosen one (over his wife) and having a guy who was pre-selected by another woman. Your wife probably values John's wife opinion, so that make John more attractive. 

You said your wife told you she finds John attractive. John's there all day. If you like chocolate, and chocolate bars are laying around at work all day, and then at home all night when you come home, do you think you would be more likely or less likely to eat a chocolate bar? Did you ever have a close friend with a woman who was very attracted to you and who you hung out with her all the time? Assuming your answer is no, that really wouldn't be a "friend" situation, but IF you had a woman friend like that, who texted you more than her husband, and you texted her more than your wife - would you think this was a platonic "friend" relationship? 

Look at the number of posts of some of these posters and see where they usually post. They know cheating.

I know no one can convince you.

The affair with John won't stay the same. They will either ratchet it up, or it will fade. You can see they are in the process of ratcheting it up. Talking to them understandingly won't stop it. Let's face it, you already had the talk with your wife, and your feelings, and not only did she discount it completely, she actually got angry about your feelings and somehow connected her betraying you with John to some stuff you didn't tell her about work. 

Cheaters act and react in certain ways and your wife is running the cheater's playbook. But you will catch her soon because it is on your radar now. The best thing you can do now is just say nothing to John or your wife. They will get sloppy, you will catch them. That's how this goes. If you say stuff to them, they might hide it better for a while.

The answer is in the texts and their secrect interactions. There are ways you can find out those things. But you will find out even if you do nothing. A lot of the damage is already done, so it really doesn't matter that much how you handle it now, except how you feel about yourself and your actions.


----------



## ConanHub

AandM said:


> What are these bounds of society that you mean?


Meant boundaries.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> You’re right. You’re so right. I am conflict avoidant with my wife. No problem with conflict in almost any other interaction or relationship. I’m sure there’s more to unpack there.
> 
> I feel she punished me when I confront her. In past times when I have confronted her and put a foot down about her disrespectful treatment then I got a days-long cold shoulder and a lot of hateful attitude.
> 
> It’s like she is much more willing than me to live in an ongoing ****ty fight. We haven’t had one of those in a while and maybe the next one is soon.
> 
> What’s the worst that could happen if I accuse her of an EA? If I’m going to confront her about it then I may as well, right?


There's so much wrong here, Nick. Starting with you being a Nice Guy and doing nothing to change that. EVERYTHING you're posting about stems from that one fact.

First, YOU do the house/lawn work when she is a SAHM? Are you saying the kitchen isn't clean when you get home? You have to clean toilets? You give the kids their baths while she sits on the couch and texts her boyfriend? ALL of this is from you being a Nice Guy.

She "regularly" yells at you and teaches you to stop holding her to a standard? More Nice Guy.

You're afraid of her giving the cold shoulder so you stay silent? More Nice Guy cos you depend on her 'giving' you niceness in order for you to feel ok with yourself. Do you know what a strong man would do? One who wasn't insecure and wasn't focused on his looks and his money as proof that he's valuable? That man? He would LAUGH at her when she gives him the cold shoulder and ignore her for as long as she acts like a 5-year-old. That man would happily go about his daily business, have fun with the kids, hang out with friends, have people over for dinner...while treating her as invisible as long as she pouts. And if someone who comes over asks what she's doing, he'd just laugh and say 'Oh, she's trying to get me to do what she wants by pouting; I'm just waiting for her to come back to the table like an adult.' I guarantee she'd never do it again.

But you're too insecure to be able to do that. Cos you READ No More Mr Nice Guy, saw yourself in it...and did nothing. Two years later, YOU haven't changed, and you are the problem.

Finally, you're going to 'confront' her about her affair? More Nice Guy desperation to try to control her. NON-Nice Guys don't confront. They state their boundaries and explain the consequences and then sit back and let her make her choice: be a good wife or lose 'all this.' But you're so insecure that you are petrified that she will choose to lose 'all this' that you will never pull that trigger. And thus, as NMMNG states, your relationship will continue to deteriorate, day by day, until she's literally bringing her lover over to the house while you babysit. Cos you'll have proved you have no backbone.


Are you ready to change yet, Nick?


----------



## jsmart

Nick, you say there's a lot at stake but there is no sense of urgency in your actions. "Should I check the text on her phone?" Of course you should. It shouldn't even be a question. Even though to be honest, you're probably not going to find much there because since he lives across the street, he has easy access to your wife. They probably have an innocent looking word or phrase that is code for meeting at a predetermined place or time.

You say that you're conflict avoidant but what you've described is beyond that. Here is a guy that is openly pursuing your wife and you're not able to marshal up the nerve to call them out on it. I hope you understand that he knows that you know he's pursing your wife. He knows because your wife told him EVERYTHING about your blowout. Yet do you think he fears anything from you? 

Please understand that the more submissive you act toward OM, the more you embolden him to pursue your wife even more aggressively, which in turn is causing your wife to be even more attracted to him. 

In case you're wondering, "how am I being submissive to OM?" Let me try to explain. When a man openly makes a move on someone else's wife, and the husband doesn't stop him, you're giving tacit approval, which is a form of submission. If you've ever watched a nature show, you will see that all male mammals quickly and aggressively move against any interloper to his women. Just because we're more evolved than a gorilla or other mammals doesn't mean that at our hamster brain level, we're not acting upon the same instincts.


----------



## Yeswecan

NickTheChemist said:


> You’re right. You’re so right. I am conflict avoidant with my wife. No problem with conflict in almost any other interaction or relationship. I’m sure there’s more to unpack there.
> 
> *Conflict avoidance is the nice guy way. It does not work. Holding in what you are feeling or needing to say will only lead to implosion. State your case.*
> 
> I feel she punished me when I confront her. In past times when I have confronted her and put a foot down about her disrespectful treatment then I got a days-long cold shoulder and a lot of hateful attitude.
> 
> *Your W is demonstrating passive aggressive behavior. Silent treatment is a form of abuse. Don't feed into it. Go about your day like all is fine in your world because IT IS. Your W is playing you and hoping you cave. And it appears you do cave. *
> 
> It’s like she is much more willing than me to live in an ongoing ****ty fight. We haven’t had one of those in a while and maybe the next one is soon.
> 
> *Again, passive aggressive behavior on your W part. She needs to understand what she is doing is wrong on many levels.
> *
> What’s the worst that could happen if I accuse her of an EA? If I’m going to confront her about it then I may as well, right?


Don't accuse your W of anything. Simply state as a matter of fact that you do not share your W with any man. If she choses to continue down this road she can but not as your W. Stand the hell up for yourself. Learn to say NO. It is not that hard. After the first few times saying NO become easier.


----------



## Hoosier

OP, first sorry for your troubles.

You should look at my earlier posts here (back in 2011, under the name Hoosier) think you would find a lot of things in common.

My xwife of 30 years was a SAHM. I was starting a business and I spent 70 hrs a week for 20 years to make it happen. I had a good friend, 15 years older than we were (we were both 51) who did odd construction work on the side. My xw loved to work with her hands, in fact if there was a power tool at our house, it was hers. I hired said friend to install a cieling at our home, she worked with him. Soon she was helping him on his various odd jobs. I at first was happy, she was happy to get out of the home, (2 kids out of home, one in college), liked the work, and I was happy thinking that if nothing else she could buy some groceries. I never suspected anything of going on. after about 9 months, I became suspicious when a couple of little things happened. One night I checked her phone, saw some I love you texts between her and him, I confronted, she paced two bags and walked out the door to his place two blocks away. Less than three months later we were divorced, and less than a year later they were married. 
Later When I looked at the phone records I discovered hundred of texts each day between each other, numerous phone calls. I HAD NO IDEA! My home is 8 blocks from my office, I come and go a lot, yet they were able to meet together. So them "staying outside" is BS, where there is a will there is a way. C

Continue with your passive ways, if not this guy, then the next will be bedding your wife, and with minor children you will be paying the bills so they can. I dont know if your wife is having an affair with this guy at this moment, but with her loose values it is only a matter of time. Man up!


----------



## ConanHub

Robbie1234 said:


> @ConanHub I have great respect for both yourself and @Andy1001 but in this case it's you guys who are missing the point.
> Guys like you two don't understand guys like the op. You will never be in his situation because Alpha males wouldn't allow another man to get as close to their wives as Nick has and their wives wouldn't put themselves in this situation to start with.They know that they have too much to lose and wouldn't be attracted to a player like John anyway. Why have a burger when you have steak at home.
> Nick is a soft touch and as Andy said he is totally conflict avoidant. If this isn't an affair and doesn't become one it will be because Nick's wife doesn't want it,his own opinion doesn't matter.


I think we understand him but Andy was just trying to let him know just how far down the man scale he was.

I didn't take his post as directions or instructions but as a comparison to how many other men would be reacting.

I would not advise OP to act like either of us but to wake the hell up and start getting his T levels up to a more workable level.


----------



## NickTheChemist

turnera said:


> There's so much wrong here, Nick. Starting with you being a Nice Guy and doing nothing to change that. EVERYTHING you're posting about stems from that one fact.
> 
> First, YOU do the house/lawn work when she is a SAHM? Are you saying the kitchen isn't clean when you get home? You have to clean toilets? You give the kids their baths while she sits on the couch and texts her boyfriend? ALL of this is from you being a Nice Guy.
> 
> She "regularly" yells at you and teaches you to stop holding her to a standard? More Nice Guy.
> 
> You're afraid of her giving the cold shoulder so you stay silent? More Nice Guy cos you depend on her 'giving' you niceness in order for you to feel ok with yourself. Do you know what a strong man would do? One who wasn't insecure and wasn't focused on his looks and his money as proof that he's valuable? That man? He would LAUGH at her when she gives him the cold shoulder and ignore her for as long as she acts like a 5-year-old. That man would happily go about his daily business, have fun with the kids, hang out with friends, have people over for dinner...while treating her as invisible as long as she pouts. And if someone who comes over asks what she's doing, he'd just laugh and say 'Oh, she's trying to get me to do what she wants by pouting; I'm just waiting for her to come back to the table like an adult.' I guarantee she'd never do it again.
> 
> But you're too insecure to be able to do that. Cos you READ No More Mr Nice Guy, saw yourself in it...and did nothing. Two years later, YOU haven't changed, and you are the problem.
> 
> Finally, you're going to 'confront' her about her affair? More Nice Guy desperation to try to control her. NON-Nice Guys don't confront. They state their boundaries and explain the consequences and then sit back and let her make her choice: be a good wife or lose 'all this.' But you're so insecure that you are petrified that she will choose to lose 'all this' that you will never pull that trigger. And thus, as NMMNG states, your relationship will continue to deteriorate, day by day, until she's literally bringing her lover over to the house while you babysit. Cos you'll have proved you have no backbone.
> 
> 
> Are you ready to change yet, Nick?


I wish that I could deny this in its entirety, but I am going to be honest with myself and you in saying that what you say is mostly true. 

I have made many changes away from nice guy, but not enough and have fumbled the ball on handling John.

Keep me accountable, TAM, I am going to handle this.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Ok Nick so what is your plan of action?


----------



## Mr.Married

NickTheChemist said:


> I wish that I could deny this in its entirety, but I am going to be honest with myself and you in saying that what you say is mostly true.
> 
> I have made many changes away from nice guy, but not enough and have fumbled the ball on handling John.
> 
> Keep me accountable, TAM, I am going to handle this.


Hey Nick,

I know it seems like we are swinging 2x4's at you a times.... but we promise ..... it's for your own good.

Never doubt they we all want to see you come out on top of your situation.

You really will have to man up ...... on multiple fronts of your marriage.

That conflict avoidance is the deathblow of respect from your spouse.

When you can ... take some time to read a few books on relationships.

I recommend "The Rational Male". It's a bit over the top on the "The manly red pill" but can give you some insight on things.

It's tough to change one's train of thought after having made so much "ego investment" in believing that what you are doing is the right thing. I promise that
you will have to change some of YOUR ways to get things back on track.


----------



## Yeswecan

Nick, imagine yourself living in a world were you are not afraid of stepping on eggshells when you W is around. Imagine saying NO to your W and actually be ok with it. Imagine worrying about your OWN happiness and not everyone else's including your W. Do you see the stress and weight you leave on yourself by not imaging any of of this?

Again, state your case about your W interactions with the neighbor. It is out of bounds and control. You are not pleased with it. You are not going to fix the issue it has become for you. Your W needs to find a way to fix it. If she has no desire, then advise you are moving on...AND START THE PROCESS. Do not bluff. Marriage are made of 2. Not 3.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> I wish that I could deny this in its entirety, but I am going to be honest with myself and you in saying that what you say is mostly true.
> 
> I have made many changes away from nice guy, but not enough and have fumbled the ball on handling John.
> 
> Keep me accountable, TAM, I am going to handle this.


How?

Specifically, how?


----------



## jsmart

Keep you accountable TAM? Really Nick? This guy is Fing your wife and that's all you could muster up? 

What you need is a very ugly confrontation with POS with both wives present. Lay it all out in the open. This friendship is over. I don't want you near my wife, house or children. Wife, you're with me or we're divorcing. While the D process moves forward, we'll ist the house and you're going to back to work.

If putting a stop to this today is to much, then at least go to Best Buy TODAY and buy a few VARS. One for her car, and a couple in the likely places that she goes to talk or worse. Also, get a phone hacking software to break into her phone and retrieve any deleted text, Whatsup, and Snapchats text, or pics. This can all be done TODAY.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> I wish that I could deny this in its entirety, but I am going to be honest with myself and you in saying that what you say is mostly true.
> 
> I have made many changes away from nice guy, but not enough and have fumbled the ball on handling John.
> 
> Keep me accountable, TAM, I am going to handle this.





FieryHairedLady said:


> Ok Nick so what is your plan of action?





turnera said:


> How?
> 
> Specifically, how?


A goal without a plan, is just a wish. You keep saying you'll deal with it, but you have yet to establish your plan of action, or do anything we've suggested. Stop dilly dallying, and buy the nanny cams. A good option is below. Buy some, and set them up.

https://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Sp...0&s=gateway&sprefix=hidden+nan,aps,326&sr=8-7

This indecisive behavior is exactly what you need to stop doing in your marriage. Stop sitting there, and take action. Today. Right now. Buy the cams, write up a plan of action for us, and then *do it*. Move like you've got a purpose.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I think nanny cams are a must, in this situation.


----------



## NickTheChemist

write up a plan of action for us, and then *do it*. Move like you've got a purpose.[/QUOTE]

I’m not going to wait for audio/video before confronting this again, but will consider VARs deepening on how W acts during and after the conversation.

General plan:

“Wife, we need to talk about John. Your closeness with him is inappropriate and outside of my boundaries. John should not be over here when I am not home. Period. If he needs something from you, then he can call me. The two of you should not be texting each other or talking on the phone or in private. You made a vow to me forsaking all others and you are breaking that vow.

You shouldn’t be sharing your emotions with John and having long conversations with him—especially when I am not present. It is disrespectful to me and unhealthy for our children to witness. 

You’ve lied to me about talking/texting with him and argued with me the first time I brought up my concerns with your relationship with John. This is all very concerning and you can imagine how things look to me.

If you wish to continue on the path with John, then you are free to do so, but not as my wife. I have too much respect for myself to allow this to go on any longer. If John is truly the type of man you want, than leave me, but you cannot take the children with you or limit my time with them. They need to see there father as strong and self-respecting and I feel I have failed them by allowing your relationship with John to get this far. 

You have to make a choice now. Let me know what you have decided by tomorrow.


----------



## Theseus

NickTheChemist said:


> Keep me accountable, TAM, I am going to handle this.


Nick, one thing to keep in mind. Many of the members of TAM forum have been cheated on themselves and have gone through this. That's a two-edged sword. It means that they have experience in this. But it also means that they see everything as a sign of cheating, and always assume a partner is cheating. Sometimes that's true, but it's not true in every case. When your only tool is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. So listen to the advice here with that in mind. 

People who are already asking Nick about divorce or calling him a BH (betrayed husband) are REALLY jumping the gun.


----------



## MyRevelation

NickTheChemist said:


> Geez. There is a lot at stake here.


No ****!!!

You think I ... and the rest ... are just making this **** up. Oh Hell No ... we lived it and know what works and what doesn’t ... and make no mistake, being a spineless doormat DOES NOT work.

It’s way past time for some serious boundaries and the first one is NO CONTACT period with OM or any of his family. The only communication is you flipping him the bird every time you see him in his yard or in the road.


----------



## Marc878

What did the phone records show?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

NickTheChemist said:


> I’m not going to wait for audio/video before confronting this again, but will consider VARs deepening on how W acts during and after the conversation.
> 
> General plan:
> 
> “Wife, we need to talk about John. Your closeness with him is inappropriate and outside of my boundaries. John should not be over here when I am not home. Period. If he needs something from you, then he can call me. The two of you should not be texting each other or talking on the phone or in private. You made a vow to me forsaking all others and you are breaking that vow. If you wish to continue on the path with John, then you are free to do so, but not as my wife.
> 
> You have to make a choice now.


Fixed it for you. The less said, the better.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> I’m not going to wait for audio/video before confronting this again, but will consider VARs deepening on how W acts during and after the conversation.
> 
> General plan:
> 
> “Wife, we need to talk about John. Your closeness with him is inappropriate and outside of my boundaries. John should not be over here when I am not home. Period. If he needs something from you, then he can call me. The two of you should not be texting each other or talking on the phone or in private. You made a vow to me forsaking all others and you are breaking that vow.
> 
> You shouldn’t be sharing your emotions with John and having long conversations with him—especially when I am not present. It is disrespectful to me and unhealthy for our children to witness.
> 
> You’ve lied to me about talking/texting with him and argued with me the first time I brought up my concerns with your relationship with John. This is all very concerning and you can imagine how things look to me.
> 
> If you wish to continue on the path with John, then you are free to do so, but not as my wife. I have too much respect for myself to allow this to go on any longer. If John is truly the type of man you want, than leave me, but you cannot take the children with you or limit my time with them. They need to see there father as strong and self-respecting and I feel I have failed them by allowing your relationship with John to get this far.
> 
> You have to make a choice now. Let me know what you have decided by tomorrow.


This is beyond critical. Do not threaten anything, or establish any boundary, that you are not 120% ready and willing to enforce. Do not tell her to choose between you and John, if you aren't ready to walk away if she chooses John. If you make a threat, or establish a boundary, but then backstep when she makes the "wrong" choice, or responds negatively, then all you are to her, is a cowardly blowhard. A poser. A fake.

Consider what you're going to say before you say it, and be sure you're prepared to put your money where your mouth is.


----------



## BluesPower

Theseus said:


> Nick, one thing to keep in mind. Many of the members of TAM forum have been cheated on themselves and have gone through this. That's a two-edged sword. It means that they have experience in this. But it also means that they see everything as a sign of cheating, and always assume a partner is cheating. Sometimes that's true, but it's not true in every case. When your only tool is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. So listen to the advice here with that in mind.
> 
> People who are already asking Nick about divorce or calling him a BH (betrayed husband) are REALLY jumping the gun.


Dude, you could not be more wrong... Who are you his wife stalking him on TAM? 

His wife IS HAVING AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR WITH JOHN. There is no doubt about that. 

The only real question is... is she screwing him... I believe the answer is yes. 

The only other question is OP going to grow some balls and do ANYTHING ABOUT IT...


----------



## Marc878

Marc878 said:


> What did the phone records show?


*This is important and may need a next step depending.*


----------



## Theseus

BluesPower said:


> Dude, you could not be more wrong... Who are you his wife stalking him on TAM?


Yeah... I joined TAM six years ago so I could provide cover for this person's affair. Right. 



> His wife IS HAVING AN EMOTIONAL AFFAIR WITH JOHN. There is no doubt about that.


They have a friendship that's probably inappropriate and makes the OP uncomfortable. I can't say that's an "emotional affair" yet, but that's just semantics, your definition might be different from mine. To me, an emotional affair involves a fantasy love life. 



> The only real question is... is she screwing him... I believe the answer is yes.


And that's the point I was getting at. Nearly EVERYONE here thinks there's always a physical affair going on! Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. But when you always start with that assumption as the default, then the advice is going to similarly be skewed in one direction, and that's not always helpful.


----------



## BluesPower

Theseus said:


> And that's the point I was getting at. Nearly EVERYONE here thinks there's always a physical affair going on! Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. But when you always start with that assumption as the default, then the advice is going to similarly be skewed in one direction, and that's not always helpful.


In case like this, the over whelming odds are they are currently involved in a physical affair. 

You can read through thousands of thread on all the sites if you want to. However, combined, lots of us here have already done that. 

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. I personally have seen this particular type of situation about 50 time over several years that I can remember. 

You have a weak husband, that really wants to be clueless, and a guy sniffing around for this long... 

If they are NOT sleeping together then OP need to mortgage the house, by lotto tickets and go to Vegas... because he is the luckiest man in the world...

But hey, maybe you are right, and he should go to Vegas...


----------



## turnera

WAAAAAY too long. You'll never get through it before she cuts you off at the knees and tears into you and you crumble like the milquetoast that you are.

Use this:


NickTheChemist said:


> “Wife, your closeness with John is inappropriate. He should not be over here when I am not home and you two communicating with each other is disrespectful to me and unhealthy for our children to witness. You’ve lied about him already, and I'm done waiting for you to realize this is wrong. If you continue to contact John, you'll be doing so with a divorce. You have to make a choice. Now. You have one hour to decide before I inform everyone, including his wife, why we are divorcing."


----------



## samyeagar

turnera said:


> WAAAAAY too long. You'll never get through it before she cuts you off at the knees and tears into you and you crumble like the milquetoast that you are.
> 
> Use this:


Yeah, my first thoughts on the initial essay was Too many words.


----------



## turnera

samyeagar said:


> Yeah, my first thoughts on the initial essay was Too many words.


Every Nice Guy does it. Every.damn.time.

Trying to make words do the work that your anger and decisiveness and confidence should be doing. Cos they're _scared_.

btw, Nick, this isn't a dis at you. It's basic psychology of men who are in the Nice Guy category. 

Again, what are you doing to get OUT of that category? Books? Therapy? Chopping wood?


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Yes by all means get the neighbors wife involved. She will be your biggest ally one of two ways:

You share with her your concerns. Don't come across wishy/washy, just straight and to the point. 

The flirting/the texting/the visits/how close they are getting, etc. Paint an ugly picture. 

Ask the neighbors wife what has she seen on her side? Is she noticing this too? 


1 of 2 things may happen:


1.) Neighbors wife either has noticed, and it has started bothering her too, or what you are saying makes sense and she starts to realize there is a problem. Then she battens the hatches down on her side... Has it out with her hubby...sets firmer boundaries in place, doesn't want hubby coming over/spending time with your wife, etc. This will help you. 

2.) Neighbors wife is not bothered by their behavior and thinks you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Is pissed you would even accuse her hubby of such a thing. (Insert lots of other emotions.) But she will still go have a talk with hubby. And if nothing else she will probably want to start to eliminate your family from the social thing. Kind of a situation where a woman, or a man finds out his spouse or gf/bf is cheating, and they don't shoot the cheater, they shoot the messenger. And that person becomes persona non gratis. This will help you.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> “Wife, we need to talk about John. You flirting with him, and engaging him in intimate conversation, is not ok with me. I've spoken with you about this before, but you've kept on, so here's what's going to happen. John will not contact you, and you will not contact him, from this day forward. If he needs to get in touch, then he can reach out to me. You will not hang out together any more, and you will not visit their house if I am not with you. Nor will he visit here, if I do not invite him.
> 
> If these boundaries are not acceptable to you, you're welcome to go live with John & "John's wife's name".
> 
> Let me know what you've decided by 8 PM tomorrow.


In the above quote, I've edited your statements down. Do any other posters have any recommended edits?

Be brief, and to the point. I'm not familiar with the previous conversation you've had with your wife, and how many times this has been addressed. The tone of the above assumes that it's been addressed clearly, multiple times in the past. If that's true, then proceed. 

If you choose to use what I've written, or anything anyone else has recommended you say, alter it to be more "you". If you would never you the phrase "intimate conversation", then use a phrase more familiar to you. If your wife feels like you're reading this off a card, and it doesn't even sound like you, then she's likely to reject it. 

So take the essence and brevity of the above, and make a Nickolized version.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

BioFury said:


> In the above quote, I've edited your statements down. Do any other posters have any recommended edits?
> 
> Be brief, and to the point. I'm not familiar with the previous conversation you've had with your wife, and how many times this has been addressed. The tone of the above assumes that it's been addressed clearly, multiple times in the past. If that's true, then proceed.
> 
> If you choose to use what I've written, or anything anyone else has recommended you say, alter it to be more "you". If you would never you the phrase "intimate conversation", then use a phrase more familiar to you. If your wife feels like you're reading this off a card, and it doesn't even sound like you, then she's likely to reject it.
> 
> So take the essence and brevity of the above, and make a Nickolized version.


LOL You can go live with them. hahaha That was a nice touch. 

I think he needs to cut neighbor and his family off entirely.


----------



## BluesPower

I am trying to not post because this thread is driving me crazy... 

Nick, let me try to give you are minor example of how things should work. 

Early on with me GF, she had a friend. Yes he was just a friend, he was the friend of one of her friends that had died. 

So she kept him as a friend, he was a drunk but she felt sorry for him. As far as I know they never slept together but that did not matter in this situation.

The friendship was not healthy for her, or our relationship, he obviously had feelings for her and he was just as weird a ****.

I told her this way... Exact words... "Your Friendship with "weird guy is over". Get it, over today, right now, this second. If not we are done, this second." 

That was all I said, early, like a couple of months into our relationship. 

You know why, because actual men do not allow their woman to be friends with the opposite sex in general. In some rare, common situations, maybe as some small level. But other than that, no. For a lot of reasons...

Is any of this making any kind of sense to you yet???


----------



## BioFury

FieryHairedLady said:


> LOL You can go live with them. hahaha That was a nice touch.
> 
> I think he needs to cut neighbor and his family off entirely.


I would agree, but it doesn't seem very realistic. How can you completely ignore someone that lives 20 feet away?


----------



## FieryHairedLady

BioFury said:


> I would agree, but it doesn't seem very realistic. How can you completely ignore someone that lives 20 feet away?


There are neighbors on my block I don't know/don't talk too.


----------



## jsmart

BluesPower said:


> *In case like this, the over whelming odds are they are currently involved in a physical affair. *
> 
> You can read through thousands of thread on all the sites if you want to. However, combined, lots of us here have already done that.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. I personally have seen this particular type of situation about 50 time over several years that I can remember.
> 
> *You have a weak husband, that really wants to be clueless, and a guy sniffing around for this long... *
> 
> If they are NOT sleeping together then OP need to mortgage the house, by lotto tickets and go to Vegas... because he is the luckiest man in the world...
> 
> But hey, maybe you are right, and he should go to Vegas...


I've read so many threads that start off like this but eventually it comes out that it was indeed an sexual PA. How anyone can read this thread and think that his wife hasn't been having sex with this guy for months is beyond me. 

I've even read threads of WW in a similar situation has Nick's wife. These women are ice cold in their calculations and their heart and body completely belongs to the OM. He's all they ask questions about. I wouldn't be surprised if Nick's wife is emotionally absent with her kids too. 

I remember a thread of a BH on SI, who hacked into his wife phone and found that his wife and POS had a code. The POS would text a certain phrase and she would go over to his house, usually give a quick BJ, then come home acting like nothing happened. This WW was some sort of at home nurse and the OM was a patient. The OM was a complete loser but here was this WW being his on-call free prostitute. She was completely submissive to POS. 

So Nick better wake up from his I'm tall and used to do some modeling because we've consistently seen WW affair down when it comes to looks. What really counts to women is confidence or better put as social dominance and this guy's been displaying that to his wife in spades.


----------



## sokillme

Here is the thing you need to remember. You're not her parent. You're not her father or her servant. Your wife is a grown adult. She will learn to live with a different situation or she won't. She will act like an adult or she won't. That really is not your issue. There are boundaries you sign up for in marriage. 

If you need to wait on her hand and foot and never challenge her bad behavior for her to love you then she doesn't love you at all.


----------



## BluesPower

FieryHairedLady said:


> There are neighbors on my block I don't know/don't talk too.


I don't talk to my next door neighbor, ever.


----------



## TRy

BluesPower said:


> The friendship was not healthy for her, or our relationship, he obviously had feelings for her and he was just as weird a ****.
> 
> I told her this way... Exact words... "Your Friendship with "weird guy is over". Get it, over today, right now, this second. If not we are done, this second."
> 
> That was all I said, early, like a couple of months into our relationship.


OMG, I had almost the exact same conversation with my now wife after we dated for a couple of months. It set the tone for how she was to interact with other men that were interested in her, that still exists even today. It is all about establishing healthy relationship boundaries.


----------



## samyeagar

TRy said:


> OMG, I had almost the exact same conversation with my now wife after we dated for a couple of months. It set the tone for how she was to interact with other men that were interested in her, that still exists even today. It is all about establishing healthy relationship boundaries.


Same here.


----------



## BluesPower

TRy said:


> OMG, I had almost the exact same conversation with my now wife after we dated for a couple of months. It set the tone for how she was to interact with other men that were interested in her, that still exists even today. It is all about establishing healthy relationship boundaries.


In a way I agree with you, but it goes further in my estimation. 

It says something about you, us. It says, hey, who in the **** do you think you are dating? If you think this is OK, then get lost, and **** off. 

I look at it this way, I don't need any of this type of crap in my life, I am a catch, and if you don't understand that or agree with that then get lost. And this guys was no threat, few men are, but I just did not like it, and won't tolerate it.

I do not allow orbiters around my life. I just don't...


----------



## TRy

Adding to something MyRevelation said, I stated something in Post#25 of this thread, that in light of recent posts by the OP (NickTheChemist), I thought I should repost. 

@OP: Tell her that you “tried to address this reasonably. Since that didn’t work it’s time to be unreasonable.” Also add that “when the two of you both make me the odd man out when you are together, that is unacceptable, and I will no longer tolerate your unhealthy for our marriage relationship with him.” Tell her that she is to stop seeing him, texting him, calling him, emailing him, and having him over to your home. That there will be no more family outings, get togethers, or trips, with him until further notice. That when necessary, she is to only communicate through his wife, and him through you. Tell her that if she does not accept this, then you will know that he means more to her than he should, and that they are at least in an emotional affair (“EA”). Let her know that if your marriage is over anyways, you will not be afraid to end it.


----------



## Sparta

Another thread where I can’t believe there are actually people on here thinking his wife is not F.ucking this guy. Well I got news for you just read the other hundred and thousands of threads from any sites like this one (dealing with relationships). Even come on here and to say “It might just be an EA” whatever I think they just come on here just to stir the pot. I think is they need a little attention too... lol 

When pursuing the opposite sex (specially when people sneaking around and having an affair) they don’t just talk about it they do it they have sex. So many BHs my wife is having an EA.! I understand that they’re shocked and they don’t want to believe that it is what it is... other than that I just don’t get it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

3Xnocharm said:


> Fixed it for you. The less said, the better.


Also, to add to what 3X wrote, when she starts yelling walk away. Hold up your hand and say this is not up for discussion. Yes, it will be hard, but you already had a discussion and it was ignored. So, now, here come the consequences.

Sorry, I disagree with explanations and further discussion in your case. You have already admitted you try to please her. Keep it simple, walk away and have a discussion after she understands you are serious. Yes, I'd give her space even if she immediately agrees.


----------



## turnera

"OK, I'll contact a lawyer Tuesday."


----------



## Blondilocks

Let's just cut to the chase: "Wife, I'm sick to death of you disrespecting me with the ass hole next door. It's him or me. Who is it going to be? You have 30 seconds to decide." Give no quarter to arguments.

Remember, no decision is a decision.

Then you can lay down the new terms of engagement. Then you can plant all those vars and nanny cams you've been putting off.


----------



## Robert22205

You say divorce is not an option. Create a journal of all the times he visits or is in contact with your wife. In my opinion your most strongest ally is the OM's wife. You can probably blow this up anytime with or without concrete proof if you confront them both in front of his wife. A spouse has an obligation to avoid suspicious behavior - and your wife failed. If they get angry ask them both to show their texts. If they raise a privacy concern, then they are cheating. 

Also, if the OM is not interested in your wife (or grooming her), he should go NC just because you ask (without challenging you) .... you don't need proof because it should be enough that it makes you uncomfortable. 

Absent getting the OM's wife involved or first talking directly with the OM ....a common error is to privately confront the wife with no concrete proof. The response will be 'no'/how dare you etc .... and then they will go underground and do a better job of hiding their contact (whether it's EA or PA). Confronting without proof will not get you out of feeling unsafe (or infidelity).

I can't tell from your posts what evidence you have.

You have access to their texts. How often and are they sexual?
Do they talk on the phone? How often, when, and for how long?
Does she leave the room to text or text him while eating or other family activity?
Do they text 'good night' or 'good morning'?
Is she possessive of her phone (take it in the bathroom)?

At a minimum I strongly suggest you place a VAR in the room where he visits.


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> Let's just cut to the chase: "Wife, I'm sick to death of you disrespecting me with the ass hole next door. It's him or me. Who is it going to be? You have 30 seconds to decide." Give no quarter to arguments.
> 
> Remember, no decision is a decision.
> 
> Then you can lay down the new terms of engagement. Then you can plant all those vars and nanny cams you've been putting off.


That would certainly get the job done, and I like it :grin2: But I think it has too much torque for Nick. Creating a boundary, and standing by it, is going to be revolutionary all by itself, without cutting to the quick like a machette. He needs to be succinct, brief, and avoid being verbose. But disemboweling her in under 5 seconds isn't a must-have :grin2:


----------



## Decorum

I am assuming everyone has looked at NickTheChemist post history. There hasn't been any chemistry, and very little "try" on her part for years. I don't think "nick the alchemist" with a magic philosophers stone could turn this dead relationship into gold.

She will continue to treat him with extraordinary indifference and he will continue to take it, because... she is one in a million.


----------



## AliceA

I like the boundary talk, however it goes. The main thing is to remember it's not about her making a decision between two men, it's about him deciding what he wants out of a relationship.

It's HIS boundaries that he is deciding on, not hers. He can't control her. She is free to make her own choices in life, and so is he. He wants to be in a loving, secure marriage. Seeing her fawn over some dude next door is not helpful, but there are other things that aren't working here too.

What does she want?

Maybe there are things they both need to change.


----------



## VFW

It seems to me that you have given a pass to the "Friend", he is fishing her and seeing what he can catch. It is doing it with a wink and a nod, so as to appear as innocent, but he is fishing none the less. I think you need to have a one-on-one with him and let him know that there is no need for him to be coming over when you are not around. That the banter between he and his wife has been appropriate at time and needs to back off. When he comes over you need to be cordial, but need to keep control of the situation. They believe they will get the vibe and know that they are on notice. I believe you also may want to do more things just you and her and make her feel more like a woman and less a mother and wife.


----------



## NickTheChemist

This is so clever and well written. Bravo. 

You’re right that there seems to be little try on her part. We fight a lot now since I read NMMNG a couple of years ago. Honestly, I call her out when she gets *****y with me and tell her that I respect myself too much to allow her to speak to/treat me that way. 

This usually turns into her pouting and me going about the rest of my day basically ignoring her because it’s a ****ing waste of my time trying to make her happy. The best gift that a received from reading NMMNG was the freedom from caring about her fits/temper.

I’m not perfect, but I’m not degrading and hurtful to her like she is to me. Most of the time things are okay between us and she can be awesome, but damn that ****ing temper. She gets mad and she’s out for blood.

She is not evil, nor is she perfect. She is just the one that I chose. The bloom is off of the rose.


----------



## BioFury

So when are you going to confront her and lay down the law?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

You should really reread your old threads. I did, to get reacquainted with your story. 

You worked around the house, you cooked dinner, you wanted her to stay at home, you wrote her love letters, you took her insults and what you received iwas a sexless marriage, a lack of communication and accusations of cheating.

Now, you have added the possible AP you swore up and down she wouldn't do. 

You were warned this is where you would be.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Update:

I’m collecting data. Also, my wife has strep throat. (No John did not come back from our trip with strep as well, but his daughter did)

Phone record is clean. Hasn’t called John or any other man—not even her brother I was able to match all of the numbers with repeated conversations to contacts—just a few girl friends and family members. 

The texts didn’t start without me until a week ago before our weekend at the lake with John’s family and it’s all about getting a cake for John’s wife’s birthday and getting our houses ready (we rented out on air BnB for that weekend.) 

Side note:it’s important to note that my wife was upset that John took all the credit for the cake, which was his wife’s favorite and a big birthday surprise and my wife’s idea. My wife even bought and bought the cake. John’s wife loved it and was really happy with him for the cake and that all bothered my wife. It is so alarming to me that my wife got miffed at John scoring with his wife. Huge red flag for the “she’s already ****ing John.” Crowd, I know.

The texts would drop off and pick up in ways that left it a disconnected conversation—leading me to think that it is a bridge between conversations in person. Questions are asked and then never answered in text, but conversation picks up hours later about what to pack for trip or some other innocent-sounding thing.

I honestly don’t believe that they are ****ing, sucking , kissing or rubbing YET, but things are moving in that direction and neither John nor my wife are putting a stop to it. 

My daughter who stays home is 4 and adores me—she would never lie to me. I’m going to asks her if Mr John ever comes in our house while daddy is working.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Update:
> 
> I’m collecting data. Also, my wife has strep throat. (No John did not come back from our trip with strep as well, but his daughter did)
> 
> Phone record is clean. Hasn’t called John or any other man—not even her brother I was able to match all of the numbers with repeated conversations to contacts—just a few girl friends and family members.
> 
> The texts didn’t start without me until a week ago before our weekend at the lake with John’s family and it’s all about getting a cake for John’s wife’s birthday and getting our houses ready (we rented out on air BnB for that weekend.)
> 
> Side note:it’s important to note that my wife was upset that John took all the credit for the cake, which was his wife’s favorite and a big birthday surprise and my wife’s idea. My wife even bought and bought the cake. John’s wife loved it and was really happy with him for the cake and that all bothered my wife. It is so alarming to me that my wife got miffed at John scoring with his wife. Huge red flag for the “she’s already ****ing John.” Crowd, I know.
> 
> The texts would drop off and pick up in ways that left it a disconnected conversation—leading me to think that it is a bridge between conversations in person. Questions are asked and then never answered in text, but conversation picks up hours later about what to pack for trip or some other innocent-sounding thing.
> 
> I honestly don’t believe that they are ****ing, sucking , kissing or rubbing YET, but things are moving in that direction and neither John nor my wife are putting a stop to it.
> 
> My daughter who stays home is 4 and adores me—she would never lie to me. I’m going to asks her if Mr John ever comes in our house while daddy is working.


I'd recommend just getting the nanny cams, and leaving the 4 year old out of this. You're not hurting for funds, and they'll continue to keep an eye on things moving forward, if things haven't already gone physical.

So, when are you going to confront her? When she's better?


----------



## NickTheChemist

BioFury said:


> So when are you going to confront her and lay down the law?


Dude, I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it. 

Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say. Soon. It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too.


----------



## NickTheChemist

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You should really reread your old threads. I did, to get reacquainted with your story.
> 
> You worked around the house, you cooked dinner, you wanted her to stay at home, you wrote her love letters, you took her insults and what you received iwas a sexless marriage, a lack of communication and accusations of cheating.
> 
> Now, you have added the possible AP you swore up and down she wouldn't do.
> 
> You were warned this is where you would be.


That’s a bitter pill, man. But you’re right. Thanks for the tough love.


----------



## NickTheChemist

turnera said:


> "OK, I'll contact a lawyer Tuesday."


I was drunk and bold when I wrote that—not ready to contact a lawyer just yet...


----------



## Marc878

You are right to have your ducks lined up. Cool calm and unflinching.

Do not let her veer off course. Stay on point. When she diverts and she will bring her right back.

Good job on checking the phone data.

Zero compromise on your part.

I would touch base with the neighbor too. 

Something like I don't come over when you aren't home. I expect the same from you. If he doesn't like it then **** him. This is your family and marriage.

The sooner you get this done the better. 

Confrontation is easier when you're well prepared for it.

It sounds like you've got the gust of where this is headed. Good thing because this is how they all start


----------



## Marc878

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You should really reread your old threads. I did, to get reacquainted with your story.
> 
> You worked around the house, you cooked dinner, you wanted her to stay at home, you wrote her love letters, you took her insults and what you received iwas a sexless marriage, a lack of communication and accusations of cheating.
> 
> Now, you have added the possible AP you swore up and down she wouldn't do.
> 
> You were warned this is where you would be.


Where's the double like button ?


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Dude, I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it.
> 
> Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say. Soon. It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too.


I never said make accusations. I said confront her, and lay down the law (your boundaries). Accusing her of an affair isn't wise, because in what world would she ever confess to it, if she was indeed having one? All you'll do is put her on high alert, and drive the affair underground, where it's hard to discover.

Buy the nanny cams already. Why haven't you purchased them yet?


----------



## Marc878

The life of a marriage warden isn't worth it. I'd divorce first.


----------



## Mr.Married

CONCRETE proof before confronting ...... and I do mean CONCRETE.

But then again .... as @Marc878 said ...... life as a marriage warden isnt worth it.


When you put your wife so high on the pedestal ..... you only become her slave. (via your past story)

When you re-align everything about yourself to meet all of her needs .... nothing but self compromise of yourself .... you are its slave.

No sane woman has desire for her slave.


----------



## Decorum

NickTheChemist said:


> This is so clever and well written. Bravo.
> 
> You’re right that there seems to be little try on her part. We fight a lot now since I read NMMNG a couple of years ago. Honestly, I call her out when she gets *****y with me and tell her that I respect myself too much to allow her to speak to/treat me that way.
> 
> This usually turns into her pouting and me going about the rest of my day basically ignoring her because it’s a ****ing waste of my time trying to make her happy. The best gift that a received from reading NMMNG was the freedom from caring about her fits/temper.
> 
> I’m not perfect, but I’m not degrading and hurtful to her like she is to me. Most of the time things are okay between us and she can be awesome, but damn that ****ing temper. She gets mad and she’s out for blood.
> 
> She is not evil, nor is she perfect. She is just the one that I chose. The bloom is off of the rose.


Oh I have been there, I was a "nice guy" in the worst since of the word. It took some time and pain to right that ship.

Started dealing with it in 2012, will be married 33 years this weekend. Our marriage looks quite different now. My wife is a very competent, strong willed person, but we have much, much better boundaries established.

It takes a willingness to pay the price to get the job done.

You have let her walk all over you with this guy. It's ridiculous, and an absolute dealbreaker unless she "gets it" and shows understanding, and remorse.

I think she has lost respect, and attraction for you (usually happens in that order). That cannot always be restored. Sadly, if push comes to shove I think you will just accept and live with that.

She will pick up on that, and while she may change her behavior in this case, the dynamic will not change. 

With regard to preparation, definately have your ducks in a row, and a plan, regardless of whether there is physical cheating or not.

The reality of the situation is that men and women are designed to meet and mate rather quickly.

If she is letting him meet her emotional needs, she will fall in love with him. If she falls in love with him she will **** him.

If he has become her emotional support then she will pay a high price to protect that relationship. A price she has not paid for you.

Act with alacrity and perhaps I will return that "Bravo"!!!


----------



## Tobyboy

The gap in texting is usually where texts were deleted. Compare to your online detail text usage will tell if they were. Unless they’re iMessage, which won’t appear on your online account.


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it.
> 
> Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say.


 You already were ignored when you told your wife that “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way". The fact that you are worried that you may be "consumed by envy" of the way she prefers the John's company over your company is very telling. As your spouse, she should always make it clear to both you and the other man ("OM"), that you are her number one priority, and she is not doing that. That is not an accusation but a fact, and that is all on her. There is nothing more for you to prove, for you to know that she and the OM have crossed a boundary that should not be crossed. 

Your wife does not care that she is being unreasonable in treating you this way, so there is no reason to worry about trying to be reasonable with her. Stop looking for excuses to delay a confrontation on this. Unless she is dying, it does not matter that she is sick. Every day that you let this go, is one more day that your wife loses respect for you, and she cannot be in love with a man that she does not respect.


----------



## Chaparral

Who else has strep? Strep is spread by close enough contact to for one to breath in the bacteria from one person to another. Some people evidently are not very affected by strep. My wife and kids got strep but I never did or so I thought. When the pediatrician was treating one of my kids I told him I never get strep throat. He said everyone gets strep. Well that may be true but I have been living with three people the have strep many times and never had a symptom. I can only remember having a sore throat once in my life.

I wonder if your neighbor could be a carrier even.

Hope things work out but they won’t if you’re weak. Good luck!


----------



## Robert22205

Thank you for sharing your evidence so far.
Are the texts strictly business? No compliments on her appearance? or I miss you?

Does he or she text the other at night or early in the morning?
Does she text in front of you? Is she smiling or excited when she gets a text from him?
Is she possessive of the phone?
Are they facebook friends? 
Are there any other texting Apps on her phone (facebook messenger, kiks, whatsapp). 

You both should read: Not Just Friends by Dr Shirley Glass. 

Among other things it mentions that a husband or wife has an obligation to make their spouse feel safe. Your wife would have difficulty defending private texts, personal visits with the guy next door and discussing your marriage. The book is based on research taken from couples that experienced infidelity - and the lessons learned! Nobody will think you're unreasonable once they read this book.

You said: I honestly don’t believe that they are ****ing, sucking , kissing or rubbing YET, but things are moving in that direction and neither John nor my wife are putting a stop to it.

Have you told John that his 'friendship' with your wife (the amount of time they spend in communicating or in contact alone) makes you uncomfortable?
And you want him to stop texting, calling or visiting when you're not present?

Most men would respect the husband's request without challenge and would back away. After all he has no emotional or financial interest in your wife (right?). 

I think you need to have that conversation just to check it off (after your wife reads Not Just Friends).

And you should have the VAR and cameras rolling already.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> Dude, I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it.
> 
> Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say. Soon. It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too.


You don't need proof of cheating to set a boundary, Nick. Think about it.


----------



## MyRevelation

NickTheChemist said:


> Dude, I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it.
> 
> Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say. Soon. It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too.


Translation: These are my excuses du jour for not doing anything.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NickTheChemist said:


> That’s a bitter pill, man. But you’re right. Thanks for the tough love.


Yes, it may be bitter, but it is to help you realize you worked hard on your marriage. I say this not for you to divorce, but to stop you from feeling guilty. You did enough, you probably did too much. I read all of your 132 posts, at the time, you have on TAM. The guilt seeps through many of your posts.
Like this one.


NickTheChemist said:


> Dude, I want to, but want to make sure that I am not crazy or over-jealous consumed by envy. I don’t want to make accusations—there’s really no upside there. I want to set the boundary and be clear about it.
> 
> Questions and defensiveness are sure to follow and I want to be able to back up what I say. Soon. It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too.



"Jealousy" and "envy?" How broken are you when you believe, her disrespect is about how she feels and how she will take your boundaries?
This is about you and your feelings and that is okay. After nearly three years of this garbage, it is long past time.


----------



## mickybill

"It kinda seems unfair or at least a bad start to bring it up while she’s in bed sick/recovering from strep throat, too."

It'll always be something, is there ever a good time to bring up possible infidelity with a neighbor? 

I think that you admit to having difficulty with confronting your wife about most things. 
Maybe give yourself a deadline, tell her that there's something you two need to talk about when she'd over the strep.
Then in a couple days remind her that you need to discuss something "after the kids go to bed". Either guilt or curiosity 
will get to her so she may ask you what do you want to talk about...there is your opening.

Maybe you caught it as a EA not yet a PA. It is doubtful IMO that they are ready to end both marriages and ride off into the sunset on unicorns
but she may want to talk to you about things as well. Be ready for "I'm so unhappy", gaslighting and blame shifting.
On th ebright side if she has strep, she won't be yelling at you.


----------



## faithfulman

Tobyboy said:


> The gap in texting is usually where texts were deleted. Compare to your online detail text usage will tell if they were. Unless they’re iMessage, which won’t appear on your online account.


 @NickTheChemist - Toyboy is correct. If there is illicit messaging, it has been deleted.

Get the phone recovery software "Fonelab", don't get "Dr. Fone" it sucks.

Run a recovery on your wife's phone and it will pull up all deleted texts, images, videos, browser history, call logs, cheater app messages and more.

Assuming she has an iPhone, You need to download and install iTunes to your computer first, then connect the phone via the cable and run Fonelab.

You will be prompted to enter her passcode, and you will have to tap the "trust this computer" prompt on the phone as well.

About a half hour to an hour and you will know what you need to know.

If she has an Android phone, Fonelab has an Android version as well.

DO IT DUDE.


----------



## Prodigal

In April 2017, you said your wife had lost respect for you. Guess what? You have now hit bottom and have started digging. Your wife is contemptuous of you. Your wife throws her flirt fests with John in your face. Sorry, but you simply don't understand boundaries at all. Sadly, you don't know how to effectively tell John to f-off.

You are a beta. It takes lots of hard work to change. You have not changed; at least not when it comes to your wife. Again, as a woman, I am telling you that your wife thinks your a joke. You can't nice her back, you can't threaten her back. 

And until you figure out what you did with your testicles, your wife will continue to rub your face in her "friendship."

Your life. Your choice.


----------



## OutofRetirement

Nick, it seems you feel uncomfortable to confront your wife. I think most of that is from your nature. I think part of your nature is why you married her. Reading books is fine, but I coach, and you can't really learn to do something from only reading it in a book.

Part of it is that you know if you bring it up, your wife will go ballistic and you'll have to deal with it for a while. My impression is that she might disparage you loudly for maybe a day or two, then give you the business for maybe a week or longer. That is a manipulation on her part to manage you, to keep you to shut up and allow her to continue whatever it is she wants to continue that you don't like.

If you started up with a woman the way your wife has started with John, what do you think your wife's reaction would be?

The most frustrating thing in the world that I know of is trying to get someone else to do something. Especially if they don't want to do it and you don't have power. Predicating that this is an important thing for them to do. You can't force your wife to do anything. She knows you are unhappy and she may or may not care, but she definitely does not care enough to change just to make you feel more comfortable or make you happy. She won't even give you the satisfaction that she understands your feelings and your feelings are valid. In my opinion, this is not love. In my opinion, your wife has some serious personality problems. Very selfish and self-centered. Long ago someone told me that people stay with other people like that because they get something out of it.

No doubt to me that something's going on with your wife and John.

Some of your assertions just make wonder about your reasoning. You state that your wife has not contacted John at any given period of time. Apparently you base this because you look at her phone. The reality is that she could have burner phone. She could use apps that would show no record. The reality is that no one can know that for sure unless you are with her 24/7. Think about the inadequacy of your thinking.

This thing about John is just a blip in a bigger picture, don't you think? It doesn't seem you are happy about her and she is not happy about you, even though it seems a bit lopsided in who puts more effort into this relationship. And has been for a while. When would you say the last time she cared about you being happy?

Consider the big picture about who your wife is, who you are, about your marriage.

You will catch her eventually. The bright side is that you are aware. You'll catch them.


----------



## faithfulman

@NickTheChemist - maybe come home early one of these days?


----------



## BioFury

Prodigal said:


> In April 2017, you said your wife had lost respect for you. Guess what? You have now hit bottom and have started digging. Your wife is contemptuous of you. Your wife throws her flirt fests with John in your face. Sorry, but you simply don't understand boundaries at all. Sadly, you don't know how to effectively tell John to f-off.
> 
> You are a beta. It takes lots of hard work to change. You have not changed; at least not when it comes to your wife. Again, as a woman, I am telling you that your wife thinks your a joke. You can't nice her back, you can't threaten her back.
> 
> And until you figure out what you did with your testicles, your wife will continue to rub your face in her "friendship."
> 
> Your life. Your choice.


That is something I wanted to remind you of Nick. Setting this boundary with your wife, is not a singular event you have to prepare yourself for, and then make it through. So having enough juice to pull yourself through the day of the confrontation isn't good enough. This is a lifestyle change. A commitment to not letting your wife disrespect you.

If that's not something you can maintain, then setting this boundary is going to be of negligible value. In fact, it will likely hurt your standing in the long run - if you cave in the future. As it will be just another thing you were too weak to stand by, in the eyes of your wife.


----------



## turnera

Nick, what specifically are you doing to stop being a weak man? About YOU, not about her? Are you exercising? Building something? Going camping? Hanging out with other men? Look, I get it. You're a thinker; that's your comfort zone. But the truth is, you married a woman who wanted/needed a more alpha version of you. She may not have realized it at the time (none of us really know what we want or need when we're young), but psychologically speaking, many women NEED a strong man or they become dissatisfied and angry and disrespectful. You can excuse yourself away all you want, but the truth is that if you don't step outside your comfort zone and learn how to be a leader, you are going to lose your wife, and probably your home and kids too.

This is war, buddy, and you can wish away your time or you can get off your butt and start FIXING YOURSELF.


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## mickybill

I found these when I re-read the thread.

A. "She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house." 
B. "My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home"

A. That statement is not a compliment. Jane is on your team, and probably has some of the same thoughts that you do. WTF is John always over at Nick's when Nick is not home? 
Talk to her, start with "I know this sounds crazy, but have you noticed..."

B. If there was 100% nothing going on either IRL or imagined, this point would not be brought up. But she knows that you know there is something going on and wants to get ahead of it. Sometimes the first statement is considered the truth and it'll be p to you to prove her wrong. When I was married my XWW had a few male work friends. Some I was ok with and a couple triggered my spidey senses.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

mickybill said:


> I found these when I re-read the thread.
> 
> A. "She mentioned that Jane (or name for John’s wife here) mentioned/complained that if John is not home when she gets off of work, then she knows that he is over at our house."
> B. "My wife made a point to mention that John never comes in the house when I am not home"
> 
> A. That statement is not a compliment. Jane is on your team, and probably has some of the same thoughts that you do. WTF is John always over at Nick's when Nick is not home?
> Talk to her, start with "I know this sounds crazy, but have you noticed..."
> 
> B. If there was 100% nothing going on either IRL or imagined, this point would not be brought up. But she knows that you know there is something going on and wants to get ahead of it. Sometimes the first statement is considered the truth and it'll be p to you to prove her wrong. When I was married my XWW had a few male work friends. Some I was ok with and a couple triggered my spidey senses.


Good point.

Sounds like the wife was looking for validation and you pushed it off. Have you sat down with her, to compare notes?


----------



## jsmart

Neighbors wife could be an ally. I’m sure her gut is going off too. Women in general are more tuned in to notice this. She could be fighting her gut due to not wanting to appear rude to OP’s wife. Since she has no evidence other than her gut, she doesn’t want to risk a scene. That’s where Nick should come in and be the cage rattler. 

Nick, you should have a chat with his wife. Share your feelings. I bet she will tell you she has the same fears. If so, a battle plan, to get the details, can be pursued by the 2 of you. 

I will say that it will be you who has to crash their party eventually. You don’t want to be hiding behind the other wife’s skirt. 

Even though there was a thread on SI of a woman that found out from the OBS that her husband was having an affair with the family friend. She was his triathlete training partner. The wife went shock and awe and had a WH who was scrambling to fix **** up, meanwhile the BH, who was a SAHD, was a complete pushover. So by sharing with his wife, she may turn out to be one of those lioness, who don’t take any shi..


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

ACT NOW!!! Not next week,nit tomorow,Now!! Go to the OM and tell him not to speak to your wife ever again!!! Simple. And if your wife doesntlike that,tell her that she can pack her bags and go be with him!!! Simole as that. And do it NOW!!!


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## Marc878

Kicking the can down the road isn't going to get you a thing. Except more anxiety.

Change is tough but if you don't get there you'll get more of what you've already gotten.

How did you like it?


----------



## Spicy

The cams and VARs will give you all the answers in a week. Unsure why you are not listening to us. Had you done this when the thread started, you would have all your answers already.


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## Hoosier

I have a couple who are among my best friends in the world. I am almost 60, and we have been friends more than 30 years. Early on in our friendship, there was a day that I stopped in to say hello, the husband was not there. I sat in the kitchen talking to the wife for about 20 minutes until he arrived. He politely but firmly mentioned to me that he did not appreciate me being in the home alone with his wife. I hadnt given it any thought, but realized HE WAS RIGHT. Even now, 30 years later, I never go inside if he isnt there, and if he is going to be more than 10 minutes, I will leave and come back. I do not complain, I do not think he was crazy, I admired him for being upfront and in control. If you have any response from the neighbor (or your wife) different than this, that would be a big red flag.

I am not in the "they must be having sex" camp. You/we dont know for sure, (and never will until you install those VAR's) but something is not right. Now is your chance to fix your marriage, if it can be fixed. Only thing required is a bit of a spine and effort on your part. ACTION not words.


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## lucy999

Spicy said:


> The cams and VARs will give you all the answers in a week. Unsure why you are not listening to us. Had you done this when the thread started, you would have all your answers already.


I truly believe (and there is no snark in my response!) that OP is afraid of what he will find.


----------



## Decorum

Hoosier said:


> He politely but firmly mentioned to me that he did not appreciate me being in the home alone with his wife. I hadnt given it any thought, but realized HE WAS RIGHT. Even now, 30 years later, I never go inside if he isnt there, and if he is going to be more than 10 minutes, .


It is the men who take action that do the best in these situations.

OP what are you afraid of?

Do you not recognize that your inaction will help precipitate the very thing you fear, only from the other direction?

You fear divorce, or being alone, or doubt you can find someone else in her league, so you do nothing.

That helps enable an affair and you lose your marriage anyway.

Unless you get off on pain, and angst.


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## Andy1001

This thread is now ten days old. Nick has done nothing other than wring his hands and make excuse after excuse for not confronting his wife and/or her boyfriend. 
I honestly think that Nick’s wife feels that Nick is ok with her behavior and he doesn’t really care either way. He hasn’t done anything to prove otherwise. The only thing he ever asked her was how she thinks their behavior looks to others. 
If she gets caught screwing John she will simply say that Nick was okay with everything.
And at this stage he may as well be.


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## personofinterest

Sometimes we get forgetful about our own stories. I wonder how many people on this forum took longer than 10 days to deal with their own situations.


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## turnera

One of the hardest things in the world to do is get a conflict-avoidant person to stand up for him/herself. I know, I'm one. It's taking me years to build up my belief that I can speak up, let alone make a demand.


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> One of the hardest things in the world to do is get a conflict-avoidant person to stand up for him/herself.


Not only is it hard for "a conflict-avoidant person to stand up for him/herself", but it is even harder if that person is also a "Nice Guy".


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## turnera

Nick, I believe the Nice Guy group has its own forum where men like you can get together and work up courage together. Maybe that'll help.


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## drifting on

Nick

I’m not going to sit here and beat you up with words, that really isn’t going to cause you to act, but what you have done would be considered minimal at best. I don’t believe in alpha or beta males, I think it's basically a crock of crap. Each person is unique, flawed, and full of issues. I deal with people society doesn’t want to, I run towards the building as everyone else runs out, murderers, rapists, burglars, you name it. This doesn’t make me a badass or a nice guy, I’m a human being.

That being mentioned, when my wife had her affair I mostly stayed quiet, I searched all that I could. You can search for weeks, months even and not find anything like me. The one thing in common about our situation, is the fact they can talk in person with you not around. This is the part you need to investigate, the when you aren’t there part. This is what will tell you the most, this is what will decide your future, this is what you need to know. People have suggested VARs and nanny cams, and you want to ask your four year old who really is going to be interrogated by her father. Find a different way. 

You need to understand something, you are at war and your wife is siding with the enemy. For your wife to ask how could you think of me to do this when you confronted, should have been met with, I can’t believe this is what you have shown me. That not only I think you spend too much time with John, his own wife does too. In other words you snap your answers back forcefully and confidently, you keep this on her. War is war, treat it as such and you will be in a better place. 

How to get you to act is another different animal altogether. You should be realizing by now that everything you’ve investigated came up empty, a new tactic is needed. Come home early, call to say you are working late ten minutes from when you will be home. Juggle your schedule if you can, call your neighbors employer to say he is at your house most of his working hours, etc. shift the pressure to them. Make it difficult for John to be there so much. As for entering your home when you aren’t there, why would your wife say that if they are such good friends? Kind of makes me think she’s telling you what you want to hear while doing the exact opposite. Johns been in your home many times while you weren’t there, that’s why your wife told you that, because she knows how the friendship looks and is to others. You needed to act seven days ago, you needed to confront seven days ago, I can only hope you act now.


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## TRy

drifting on said:


> You need to understand something, you are at war and your wife is siding with the enemy.


Nick, I am re-quoting drifting on's very astute statement that "you are at war and your wife is siding with the enemy" to make sure that it does not get lost in the rest of the post. This is exactly the point of view that you need to have in dealing with this situation.


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## BarbedFenceRider

I say, if he is conflict avoidant...Let them eat cake! I would start by cutting back on the bills side of things. Manage your budget as if you WERE single. Since she is obviously voting for the otherside. I would also, NOT work so hard. Cut back on hours and start doing things for only OP. Since you don't matter, it shouldn't be a big jar for her, right? Then, maybe take the other wife out for lunch. Go to a park, or art gallery....Whatever! But you need to do things that you would normally do with HER. Just add a new partner to make a point. (NO, I'm not asking you to cheat.) Just the appearance of moving on. DO NOT TELL your WW. You guys can start comparing notes and looking online for lawyers. I would seriously think about dividing up the finances and start getting your personal stuff mitigated. When she asks, you just say that you are doing YOU. It doesn't matter anyway right?! Lets see how fast she swims with that lead weight around her neck!


The big thing is, you don't have to go ballistic, you just have to get it done. And Passive Agressive little ****s are sooo annoying, she WILL notice...lol


----------



## Prodigal

personofinterest said:


> Sometimes we get forgetful about our own stories. I wonder how many people on this forum took longer than 10 days to deal with their own situations.


I agree with you on this. Change is difficult, uncomfortable, and challenging. When we move out of our comfort zone, we often become fearful.

But here's the thing: Nick posted on 4/27/17 about the pain he was experiencing from his wife's disrespectful treatment. He sounds like a good, decent man. But some of the things he posted over two years ago:

- wife will not kiss him
- wife doesn't like him touching her
- wife content to be roommates
- wife verbally abusive
- wife shows no expression of love or closeness

Apparently, these behaviors had started FIVE YEARS before Nick's April '17 post. At that time, many responses mentioned that his wife had no respect for him, and urged him to work on himself.

Sadly, his wife appears to be having an EA, and possibly a PA with the next door neighbor. 

Nick has been so hesitant to step up to the plate and set healthy boundaries in his marriage, that his wife is flaunting another man in his face. To save his marriage, if there is any hope at all, he'll have to do something proactive sooner rather than later. I fear his marriage is going to be toast in the near future.

JMO.


----------



## BioFury

Prodigal said:


> Nick has been so hesitant to step up to the plate and set healthy boundaries in his marriage, that his wife is flaunting another man in his face. To save his marriage, if there is any hope at all, he'll have to do something proactive sooner rather than later. I fear his marriage is going to be toast in the near future.
> 
> 
> 
> JMO.


I have the same concern. Nick, you need to deal with this man. If you don't find another side to yourself soon, you're likely going to lose everything you value.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## syhoybenden

NickTheChemnist has not been back to TAM in five days now.

It would appear that he has gone back into hibernation.


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## nekonamida

Nick, I'm one of the few that believe you're handling this very well at this junction. It's prudent to gather more information before making any big decisions about the marriage. It's clear that you love your wife and have been working on the marriage for years. What's a little more time to you to determine where this is going?

The only thing that concerns me is that your wife is high risk for an affair. She may truly believe that her libido is down and out but unfortunately it really does sound like it's only specific to you because she also won't cuddle, kiss, or emotionally invest in you. But she emotionally invested in the OM. If and when someone else clicks with her, those feelings will be overwhelming because she hasn't had much of a sex life for years. If you decide to stay long term, things either need to drastically improve in your marriage or this will fall apart on you one day either because she finds someone new or because she is so checked out of the marriage that she no longer wants to be in it.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Wow. I’m honored that you are so invested and I am taking your advice.


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## nekonamida

Nick, did you always deal with her not respecting you and withholding intimacy in the marriage? I remember one of your other posts said that this has been a running theme through out your marriage. How were things before getting married? And when did they change?


----------



## NickTheChemist

syhoybenden said:


> NickTheChemnist has not been back to TAM in five days now.
> 
> It would appear that he has gone back into hibernation.


I am here—and very Grateful for the TAM community.

So many of you are right that I have allowed myself to fall back into comfortable habits concerning “nice guy syndrome”. I’ve definitely made a lot of improvement since reading for the first time 2 years ago. It is the easy thing to do in the moment for the sake of peace, but it is poison over a lifetime.


----------



## NickTheChemist

nekonamida said:


> Nick, I'm one of the few that believe you're handling this very well at this junction. It's prudent to gather more information before making any big decisions about the marriage. It's clear that you love your wife and have been working on the marriage for years. What's a little more time to you to determine where this is going?
> 
> The only thing that concerns me is that your wife is high risk for an affair. She may truly believe that her libido is down and out but unfortunately it really does sound like it's only specific to you because she also won't cuddle, kiss, or emotionally invest in you. But she emotionally invested in the OM. If and when someone else clicks with her, those feelings will be overwhelming because she hasn't had much of a sex life for years. If you decide to stay long term, things either need to drastically improve in your marriage or this will fall apart on you one day either because she finds someone new or because she is so checked out of the marriage that she no longer wants to be in it.


Thank you, and you are right. I had to take a few days away from TAM to do some investigation and thinking/observing. I wanted to let all of the advice sink in and really examine myself and if I’m being reasonable.

There is no reason to suspect a PA. Nor is there much to show in the way of EA. There is, however the matter of her complete attention to him—in a way that I wish she would give her attention to me. 

I believe that that is the root of me feeling awful: here is this guy who is an alpha—he’s brash and a bit of a jerk sometimes—and my wife respects him more than me. I realize that I have played into this over the past decade by failing to set healthy boundaries and being a push over to the point of her losing respect for me.

Here’s the deal. I’m not an ass hole. I never have been. I’m not going to start dropping ultimatums and threatening divorce for theatrical effect. It’s not my ****ing fault that she is acting this way. It is her choice. It is my fault for allowing it to go on without making a firm stand and setting clear boundaries and not moving them. 

The answer was in front of me all along—that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children. That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point. 

I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.


----------



## turnera

You are going to? Why haven't you already done so? It's not some grand production. You just go home tonight, walk in the door, go over to her, and say 'Wife, you're paying too much attention to John and I don't like it. I want you to stop contacting him.'

Can you do that TONIGHT or not?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

NickTheChemist said:


> There is no reason to suspect a PA. Nor is there much to show in the way of EA. There is, however the matter of* her complete attention to him—in a way that I wish she would give her attention to me.
> *
> The answer was in front of me all along—*that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children.* That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.


Um, I am not sure exactly WHAT your definition of an EA actually IS, but for pretty much the rest of us, its *THIS*! You are starting to kinda sorta get it but you are STILL in denial in that you refuse to call it what it is.

https://www.verywellmind.com/emotional-affairs-and-infidelity-2303091


----------



## nekonamida

Setting boundaries is a great start. Think about what you will do if they are broken or she refuses to honor them though. If boundaries aren't respected, there needs to be some form of consequence. That could even be the 180 and detaching if you're not ready to take further steps such as lawyer and divorce.

The ideal outcome for you is not just to end her EA with John. It's to repair all of the other issues with your marriage and make it better for both you and her. Otherwise you will likely find yourself here again with a similar or worse issue down the road. Marriage counseling for the both of you and individual counseling for her on top of that should be a requirement. You need to get to the bottom of why she doesn't respect you because according to your experience, she hasn't respected you since getting married. Sure, your "nice guy" act didn't help and further deteriorated her respect but it seems like it was damaged from the start. That is something that she needs to answer as well as getting her anger issues under control. You can't fix that for her even with dropping the "nice guy" attitude and as the last 2 years have proven, it only gets you so far and not nearly far enough.


----------



## drifting on

Nick

It doesn’t take an ******* to do what needs to be done. This is a man protecting his family and spouse from an enemy. Enemies can be dealt with in many ways to rid from your life, or even just to place at bay. Have your talk now to see what side your wife is going to choose, place clear boundaries and limits.


----------



## Noble1

Sorry to hear about your situation.

You sounds like a person who thinks and plans things out before taking action. In most cases, some planning is good, in others, you can waste so much time planning that the eventual action is meaningless.

If it were me, I would do the same type of planning and thinking; however, before I confront/stand up for myself, I would put in place "things - VARs, nanny cam's, etc. to verify what, if any, thing happens after the confrontation.

For me the trust but verify is very important.

Good luck.


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> Here’s the deal. I’m not an ass hole. I never have been. I’m not going to start dropping ultimatums and threatening divorce for theatrical effect. It’s not my ****ing fault that she is acting this way. It is her choice. It is my fault for allowing it to go on without making a firm stand and setting clear boundaries and not moving them.
> 
> The answer was in front of me all along—that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children. That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.
> 
> I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.


You were already ignored when you previously told your wife that “I feel unwanted when you ignore me when I get home from work because John is over and you’re talking to him. And I makes me feel unimportant when you talk with John so much in the day, but won’t share with me in the same way". Since she is well aware that you are upset "that she gives him her attention at the expense of" you, and has shown that she does not care, if you are "not going to start dropping ultimatums" what are you going to do if she continues to ignore you on this?


----------



## MEM2020

Anger - is the result of fear or hurt. In a fist fight there is nothing better since it suppresses both fear and pain. 

Man to wife - anger comes across as weakness. Anger is about me and my fear/jealousy/insecurity. 

Disapproval - is a completely different matter. Disapproval - calmly delivered - is all about the other person and their bad behavior. 

None of us, none of us can control our partners, and on balance that is a good thing. 

Your W already knows you are angry and frightened. Telling her you are mad is counterproductive. 

And while you may be a wizard when it comes to chemicals or pharmaceuticals - but the game your neighbor is playing with you wife is not one that you really understand. What makes him alpha isn't his brashness - it is his absolute lack of fear of you in your own house. 

Every passive man on TAM must read the same rationalization playbook. Being strong = being an ass hole. Being strong in this situation is the opposite of what you plan to do. 










NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you, and you are right. I had to take a few days away from TAM to do some investigation and thinking/observing. I wanted to let all of the advice sink in and really examine myself and if I’m being reasonable.
> 
> There is no reason to suspect a PA. Nor is there much to show in the way of EA. There is, however the matter of her complete attention to him—in a way that I wish she would give her attention to me.
> 
> I believe that that is the root of me feeling awful: here is this guy who is an alpha—he’s brash and a bit of a jerk sometimes—and my wife respects him more than me. I realize that I have played into this over the past decade by failing to set healthy boundaries and being a push over to the point of her losing respect for me.
> 
> Here’s the deal. I’m not an ass hole. I never have been. I’m not going to start dropping ultimatums and threatening divorce for theatrical effect. It’s not my ****ing fault that she is acting this way. It is her choice. It is my fault for allowing it to go on without making a firm stand and setting clear boundaries and not moving them.
> 
> The answer was in front of me all along—that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children. That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.
> 
> I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you, and you are right. I had to take a few days away from TAM to do some investigation and thinking/observing. I wanted to let all of the advice sink in and really examine myself and if I’m being reasonable.
> 
> There is no reason to suspect a PA. Nor is there much to show in the way of EA. There is, however the matter of her complete attention to him—in a way that I wish she would give her attention to me.
> 
> I believe that that is the root of me feeling awful: here is this guy who is an alpha—he’s brash and a bit of a jerk sometimes—and my wife respects him more than me. I realize that I have played into this over the past decade by failing to set healthy boundaries and being a push over to the point of her losing respect for me.
> 
> Here’s the deal. I’m not an ass hole. I never have been. I’m not going to start dropping ultimatums and threatening divorce for theatrical effect. It’s not my ****ing fault that she is acting this way. It is her choice. It is my fault for allowing it to go on without making a firm stand and setting clear boundaries and not moving them.
> 
> The answer was in front of me all along—that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children. That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.
> 
> I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.


And if she throws it back in your face like she is going too. Then what are you going to do?

This is the choose me game. 

Read the 180 and do it. 

Don’t chase her.

Don’t go crying to her that you don’t like being ignored. 

You want her to respect you, then earn her respect. 

You have cried to her already about how this makes you feel. 

Don’t threaten divorce. File and make her chase you for a change. 

Don’t threaten anything you are not willing to follow through on. 

Don’t complain again and again and expect anything to change from what it has been. 

She has made it obvious that she is more into him then you. 

Divorce and find someone that is into you.


----------



## SunCMars

NickTheChemist said:


> Wow. I’m honored that you are so invested and I am taking your advice.


Ta, Da!

Ah, out of the woodwork, Bob-Nick Woodward 'writely' appears.

:grin2:


----------



## ABHale

If she is not respecting you don’t have to be a jerk to require it. 

Respect yourself by not putting up with her actions. 

Respect yourself by doing your own thing when she makes it obvious you are not wanted.


----------



## Decorum

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you, and you are right. I had to take a few days away from TAM to do some investigation and thinking/observing. I wanted to let all of the advice sink in and really examine myself and if I’m being reasonable.
> 
> There is no reason to suspect a PA. Nor is there much to show in the way of EA. There is, however the matter of her complete attention to him—in a way that I wish she would give her attention to me.
> 
> I believe that that is the root of me feeling awful: here is this guy who is an alpha—he’s brash and a bit of a jerk sometimes—and my wife respects him more than me. I realize that I have played into this over the past decade by failing to set healthy boundaries and being a push over to the point of her losing respect for me.
> 
> Here’s the deal. I’m not an ass hole. I never have been. I’m not going to start dropping ultimatums and threatening divorce for theatrical effect. It’s not my ****ing fault that she is acting this way. It is her choice. It is my fault for allowing it to go on without making a firm stand and setting clear boundaries and not moving them.
> 
> The answer was in front of me all along—that she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children. That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.
> 
> I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.



You are still setting up straw-men in your thinking that relieve you of responsibility. That hinders you, but you are going to act and that is the most important thing.

Why are you limiting yourself?

You have freewill and the right of self-direction.

For this to work, and this is true with anyone you meet, in any situation, they simply need to know that you will escalate this to whatever level necessary to enforce your boundary (however firm and levelheaded, and nice you need to be). 

This means different things in different situations, calling a manager, ending a relationship, exposing to friends and family, leaving a critical review, etc.

In the case of a marriage it means ending it if it is something on which you cannot compromise, your "hill to die on" so to speak.

You simply have to mean it, and she will get it, then if she tests you, you must follow through. If you have to file, then file, it is not a waste of money to show you will follow through. If she learns to respect your word and shows remorse put it on hold.

This would be an extreme case of course, unfortunately you have allowed it to wander to the margins of extreemsville.

She is not your mother, don't expect her to be your cheering section, throwing out unconditional love and altruistic encouragement like rose pedals to you.

You are going to have to earn her respect and keep it.


----------



## SunCMars

Confronting your wife is dandy.

I would first go over to the neighbors house and tell Mr. Alpha in front of his wife to stop all, any interaction with your wife. To stay the hell away from her.
Then immediately walk away.

I would first go to the International Food Market and buy the hottest bell peppers made on Earth.

I would rub them all over my face, avoiding my eyes, my nostrils and my mouth.

I would do this to convince them that you are highly pissed off. Seeing your beet red and tearing wildly face, they will be convinced of that.
And they will think you are nuts. And both will avoid you.

After you leave, his wife will read POSOM the riot act.

Yes.





[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## NickTheChemist

nekonamida said:


> Setting boundaries is a great start. Think about what you will do if they are broken or she refuses to honor them though. If boundaries aren't respected, there needs to be some form of consequence. That could even be the 180 and detaching if you're not ready to take further steps such as lawyer and divorce.
> 
> The ideal outcome for you is not just to end her EA with John. It's to repair all of the other issues with your marriage and make it better for both you and her. Otherwise you will likely find yourself here again with a similar or worse issue down the road. Marriage counseling for the both of you and individual counseling for her on top of that should be a requirement. You need to get to the bottom of why she doesn't respect you because according to your experience, she hasn't respected you since getting married. Sure, your "nice guy" act didn't help and further deteriorated her respect but it seems like it was damaged from the start. That is something that she needs to answer as well as getting her anger issues under control. You can't fix that for her even with dropping the "nice guy" attitude and as the last 2 years have proven, it only gets you so far and not nearly far enough.


You get it. This is excellent advice. I’ve casually brought up the idea of marriage counseling before and she’s not opposed


----------



## NickTheChemist

Excellent advise: disapproval over anger. Got it. What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?


----------



## Decorum

I will add one more thing.

This may seem obvious, but it can be very subtle, and you may know it, but it may be helpful to hear it from someone else.
Don't compete with this guy.

Your wife chose you at some point. She was attracted to your listening skills and your kindness. She felt safe because you did not behave with aggression and she did not see it in your eyes. 
The question is can she still be attracted to who you are?

She is obviously attracted to the neighbor, and your home provides a safe place for her to explore that attraction.

I think it is axiomatic that women are often attracted to "bad boys". I believe it is because they (bad boys) resonate with a biological imperative in a women's wiring, that is in her lymbic brain.

It is a fantasy that will only leave her hurt and broken, but sometimes women want to be taken, and have someone dominate them. If you read here you will see the trend.

Earning her respect is a manly thing to do. It is a protection for her.

I doubt she fully realizes what she will be losing if she throws away your marriage, nor how much his wife wished he would be more kind.

You can't compete, but you can up your game, and stand your ground.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

NickTheChemist said:


> I am going to set a clear boundary that I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence and express how hurtful and disrespectful that is—and that I’m ****ing MAD about it.


I came back to this post to read it again. 

So do tell... WHAT IS the boundary here?? All this is, is you stomping your foot telling her that your widdle feewings are hurt. Stating what you're not ok with. That does NOTHING! What happens when she doesnt give a damn what you think or how you feel (because she doesnt) and continues on with John, either as she has been all along, or now in secret?? WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT???


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> Excellent advise: disapproval over anger. Got it. What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?


Strong is simple. It's saying "I won't share your attention or affection with another man. If you can't do that, we need to separate."

btw, you still have no clue what NMMNG means or says. Every sentence you write is full-blown nice guy, which means you haven't done ANYTHING to stop being one. Are you in therapy? That would be a good start.


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> You get it. This is excellent advice. *I’ve casually brought up the idea of marriage counseling before and she’s not opposed*


You grasp at anything so you don't have to do it yourself. Your biggest problem is your a coward. 

Stop mowing the lawn while your house is on fire.

No wonder your wife walks all over you.


----------



## MEM2020

Nick,
The best thing you have said so far is that you aren’t willing to divorce her. And the reason I think that is really good is that:
- You know that many folks here will throw rocks at your for that
- But you said it anyway, because it is true and you chose saying what is true over saying what others want you to
- Every guy on here who has tried to bluff their wife with threats of divorce - has ended up worse off - so this self honesty thing is good 

Your issue is not that you are unwilling to divorce your W. Your issue is that you are so fearful of her leaving you, that you are not willing to rock the boat. 

Rocking the boat is not a raised voice or emotional appeal. It is instead to stop radiating a non stop stream of APPROVAL by pursuing her.

*For what is pursuit, if not the purest form of approval? 
*
And what than, is the 180 at it's essence, it is disapproval from top to bottom. 

But this means - you need to take a huge step forward and accept that it might be best for HER to divorce you. And this means accepting that when you rock the boat she may jump out of it. This boat rocking is a true 180, not a pretend 180 in which you ignore her when she ignores you, and jump to her beck and call soon as she glances in your direction. This is a 180 where the response to: why are you so jealous? 

Is: When the foundation is cracked, it’s kind of strange when the other person wants to paint the upstairs closet. Followed by a shrug and resumption of whatever you were doing which better not be an act of service for her. 

But Nick - you’ve avoided responding to me for a long time. So since I don’t expect any prolonged attention, I will touch on a theme that you are going to need to address. We all avoid pain, but sometimes pain is a warning system that draws our priorities in a useful manner. 

You started avoiding me and my input long ago when I told you that managing symptoms was dangerous if it was done to avoid underlying causes. You complained about a sexual relationship and only casually mentioned that your wife had stopped kissing you many years earlier. 

When you chose not to address that with her, while continuing to persistently pursue sex, she quietly concluded that you were oblivious or indifferent to the quality of the experience for her. Or you were too frightened of what she might say to ask about it. 

Given your science background I will close with this....

I watched a science fiction movie and they talked about how our immune system has a biological dimension and a behavioral dimension. One behavioral feature of humans - is - disgust. It is nearly universal and is designed to minimize our exposure to biohazards. This is just science - so - we all have our challenges in life: 
Anger is to fear and hurt
As 
Passion is to disgust

If you are angry enough it suppresses and overwhelms fear and hurt. 

If you get folks to speak honestly they will tell you about their very first experience with giving oral sex. If they were strongly attracted to their partner and highly aroused it was a positive experience. If they were not very aroused, and if they are sort of average - they didn’t much like it and more precisely felt disgust. 

My guess - you kissed W too passionately too quickly. Before she was turned on. 

Thing is, by choosing not to ask her - you prioritized ego protection over the quality of the experience for both of you. That - ego protection - is why your marriage is not doing so great. And your fear of being criticized has driven a lot of her disrespect for you. 






NickTheChemist said:


> Excellent advise: disapproval over anger. Got it. What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?


----------



## MEM2020

And what is divorce, if not the ultimate form of disapproval?




MEM2020 said:


> Nick,
> The best thing you have said so far is that you aren’t willing to divorce her. And the reason I think that is really good is that:
> - You know that many folks here will throw rocks at your for that
> - But you said it anyway, because it is true and you chose saying what is true over saying what others want you to
> - Every guy on here who has tried to bluff their wife with threats of divorce - has ended up worse off - so this self honesty thing is good
> 
> Your issue is not that you are unwilling to divorce your W. Your issue is that you are so fearful of her leaving you, that you are not willing to rock the boat.
> 
> Rocking the boat is not a raised voice or emotional appeal. It is instead to stop radiating a non stop stream of APPROVAL by pursuing her.
> 
> *For what is pursuit, if not the purest form of approval?
> *
> And what than, is the 180 at it's essence, it is disapproval from top to bottom.
> 
> But this means - you need to take a huge step forward and accept that it might be best for HER to divorce you. And this means accepting that when you rock the boat she may jump out of it. This boat rocking is a true 180, not a pretend 180 in which you ignore her when she ignores you, and jump to her beck and call soon as she glances in your direction. This is a 180 where the response to: why are you so jealous?
> 
> Is: When the foundation is cracked, it’s kind of strange when the other person wants to paint the upstairs closet. Followed by a shrug and resumption of whatever you were doing which better not be an act of service for her.
> 
> But Nick - you’ve avoided responding to me for a long time. So since I don’t expect any prolonged attention, I will touch on a theme that you are going to need to address. We all avoid pain, but sometimes pain is a warning system that draws our priorities in a useful manner.
> 
> You started avoiding me and my input long ago when I told you that managing symptoms was dangerous if it was done to avoid underlying causes. You complained about a sexual relationship and only casually mentioned that your wife had stopped kissing you many years earlier.
> 
> When you chose not to address that with her, while continuing to persistently pursue sex, she quietly concluded that you were oblivious or indifferent to the quality of the experience for her. Or you were too frightened of what she might say to ask about it.
> 
> Given your science background I will close with this....
> 
> I watched a science fiction movie and they talked about how our immune system has a biological dimension and a behavioral dimension. One behavioral feature of humans - is - disgust. It is nearly universal and is designed to minimize our exposure to biohazards. This is just science - so - we all have our challenges in life:
> Anger is to fear and hurt
> As
> Passion is to disgust
> 
> If you are angry enough it suppresses and overwhelms fear and hurt.
> 
> If you get folks to speak honestly they will tell you about their very first experience with giving oral sex. If they were strongly attracted to their partner and highly aroused it was a positive experience. If they were not very aroused, and if they are sort of average - they didn’t much like it and more precisely felt disgust.
> 
> My guess - you kissed W too passionately too quickly. Before she was turned on.
> 
> Thing is, by choosing not to ask her - you prioritized ego protection over the quality of the experience for both of you. That - ego protection - is why your marriage is not doing so great. And your fear of being criticized has driven a lot of her disrespect for you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NickTheChemist said:


> Nor is there much to show in the way of EA.


Sure there is and I am going to only use your post.




> The answer was in front of me all along—that *she gives him her attention at the expense of me and her children.* That’s clear as day and the only accusation I have to make at this point.
> 
> I am going to set a clear boundary that *I’m not okay with them being together without me or John’s wife* for any reason—whether the kids wanna play together or not. And that *I’m not okay with them texting as they have been. I’m going to call her out on the undivided attention that she gives him in my presence*


Yes, this is an EA whether you want to believe it or not. Handle it or continue to be disrespected, unhappy and "mad."


Good luck, I want you to succeed. Earning respect back is hard and you have already wasted two years.


----------



## MEM2020

The trouble with being so agitated is that the anxiety acts as a cognitive paralytic. 

Basic thinking is impaired because your limbic system has hijacked your higher brain functions. 

You can’t use the word boundary in a vacuum. You have strongly said: I won’t divorce her over this.

And that’s ok. But a boundary heads two parts: an IF condition and a THAN consequence. 

What is the consequence part of your boundary? 





NickTheChemist said:


> Excellent advise: disapproval over anger. Got it. What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM2020 said:


> But a boundary heads two parts: an IF condition and a THAN consequence.
> 
> What is the consequence part of your boundary?


This is the issue I have with your current and past words. This is why some posters are getting snarky. 

If I get rewarded for doing nothing, why am I going to work harder at doing something?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Bottom line is that if wifey KNOWS that Nick will never end the marriage no matter HOW HORRIBLE she is, no matter what she does, then she has ZERO motivation to change. Why should she?? Because of all the LOVE and RESPECT she so clearly has for him? Chya right. She has it good with him, she has her cushy little life and a man who for some reason worships the crappy ground she walks on, while being able to get some D on the side with his approval. I say his approval because obv he isnt doing anything whatsoever to put a stop to it. So until he is willing to chance losing it, THIS is his life, and its all his own doing. 

Where's the Tylenol??


----------



## Blondilocks

Blondilocks said:


> Let's just cut to the chase: "Wife, I'm sick to death of you disrespecting me with the ass hole next door. It's him or me. Who is it going to be? You have 30 seconds to decide." Give no quarter to arguments.
> 
> Remember, no decision is a decision.
> 
> Then you can lay down the new terms of engagement. Then you can plant all those vars and nanny cams you've been putting off.


I'm putting this out there (again) because this is how you get her attention.

A consequence for her if she decides she really, really likes talking to john is to tell her that if you see john in your driveway, yard, patio, house or on your roof when you get home is that you will immediately leave and she can take care of the kids for the evening. You'll be finding other entertainment. She's in charge of her and you're in charge of you.

No yelling - cool, calm and collected.


----------



## MEM2020

All,

Nick isn’t ready to do this, to divorce his W. He just isn’t. That is what a 180 is for, the case where someone is not willing or able to divorce but wishes to convey the most extreme version of marital disapproval. 




3Xnocharm said:


> Bottom line is that if wifey KNOWS that Nick will never end the marriage no matter HOW HORRIBLE she is, no matter what she does, then she has ZERO motivation to change. Why should she?? Because of all the LOVE and RESPECT she so clearly has for him? Chya right. She has it good with him, she has her cushy little life and a man who for some reason worships the crappy ground she walks on, while being able to get some D on the side with his approval. I say his approval because obv he isnt doing anything whatsoever to put a stop to it. So until he is willing to chance losing it, THIS is his life, and its all his own doing.
> 
> Where's the Tylenol??


----------



## Andy1001

Blondilocks said:


> I'm putting this out there (again) because this is how you get her attention.
> 
> A consequence for her if she decides she really, really likes talking to john is to tell her that if you see john in your driveway, yard, patio, house or on your roof when you get home is that you will immediately leave and she can take care of the kids for the evening. You'll be finding other entertainment. She's in charge of her and you're in charge of you.
> 
> No yelling - cool, calm and collected.


The time to be cool calm and collected is long gone. 
Nick, there is a lot of things you could be doing,some good some bad. 
However you have done nothing,not a ****ing thing.
Your here today like a cheerleader with all these resolutions that you are making. You’re going to do this,you’re going to say that,you’re going to make this,that and the other clear to your wife. 
How about actually doing something, then coming here and telling us about it instead of shoulda,woulda,coulda.
But didn’t.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

It has been 5 days'ish. Glad OP came back.

I was really hoping that S*** was hitting the fan.

But in reality I knew that the most likely probability is that they probably BBQ'ed with the neighbors.

Who flipped the burgers?

You or neighbor guy?


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?


You ask "What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?" The answer is setting consequences that go with that boundary.


----------



## SunCMars

When one applies logic to quicksand, the truth soon slips under his last noted standing.

Slippery is when logic does not adhere to Teflon, nor to shiny Truth.

A chameleon knows no boundaries, he blends in and makes up them to suit his now position.
When life changes, he steps two paces aft.

If talk is cheap, Nick, you are a self-made pauper.

Soon, very soon no more posters will browse here.
Why should they?

Their words are not heeded, and we hear only repeated echoes from the past.

When helping hands shrug, the outcome is now your own doing.

TAM's alarm sounding broken record will soon fail, and soon all we will hear is click, tick, scratch.

I get it. You are who you are, you will not change, yet you continue to complain.

How is that working out?





[THM]- Nemesis





[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## NickTheChemist

OP update:

I did it. I had the conversation. I said what needed to be said and it was uncomfortable, as it should be.

I lead by saying we need to talk about John and I’ve waited longer than I should have to do this. I said “you and John have crossed boundaries of mine long ago”. I told her that This has been eating at me and I owe it to her to do this. “John should not be coming over to visit you—especially when I’m not home. It’s inappropriate and makes me very uncomfortable.” I said. “And the fact that his wife is at work, and I’m working and he comes over here knowing that is very concerning. I’m not okay with it.” I went on to say that “if you want to be my wife, that means having a very clear line between the closeness you have with me and the level of closeness you have with any other man.” And said “I’m sick of playing second fiddle to John when he’s around and having to work for your attention because the two of you are so focused on each other. I capped it with “I’m not telling you what to do. I’m telling you where my line is if you want to be with me and you’ve crossed it. Have I been clear?”

She started to interrupt early on when I mentioned the texts between them—I expect to accuse me of invading her privacy, but she stopped herself before getting a word out.

She has hardly said a word since and seems angry/hurt and at the point of tears just sitting there in bed.

I feel much better already and want to thank you all.

Now, how do you think I’ve done? how do you advise I move forward, TAM community?

I should mention that John’s wife is a teacher and school is out today so I expect John’s attention to be much less since his wife will be home.

Oh, and I still have to talk to John. I told my wife that I would be talking to him soon and letting him know that he is no longer welcome to come over and visit my wife when I’m not home.


----------



## NickTheChemist

I want to thank you. This is tough to read, but is very helpful in motivating me to take action. You paint a picture of the person I don’t want to be and the eventual outcome I do not want. Thank you.


----------



## NickTheChemist

TRy said:


> You ask "What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary?" The answer is setting consequences that go with that boundary.


Thank you and you were right. I took the approach of defining how I expect her to draw a line if she wants to be my wife.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Forgive me for going dark for a few days—wanted to make sure I was using my own words and have a good handle of my feelings and emotions. I hope that you’d agreed mostly with the words I used tonight.


----------



## NickTheChemist

I’ll look into what the 180 is. I actually did end up laying out the consequences by stating that she would need to have a clear line between me and every other man if she wants to be my wife. It was like vomiting for me to get those words out, but I feel much better now that I’ve done what I think is right.


----------



## TAMAT

Nick,

Speak with OMW first layout all the evidence, you will likely find he is a serial cheater.

This may be the last straw for OMW and OM divorcing mean them selling the house.

If you tell the OM first he will paint you as an irrational or crazy person, get in the first punch or better yet a 50 cal. to the head.


----------



## Mr.Married

Nick,

You got it out there and defined your boundary. Good Job.

Now that you said you will talk to John .... you must absolutely do it.

Know this: In her silence she is formulating a counter attack. Be ready for it. Stick to exactly what you said before ... maintain those boundries.

The only chance of scraping up some respect is to remain strong.

She will s**t test you .... be ready.


----------



## Mr.Married

...


----------



## Mr.Married

Nick,

I want to reiterate. You have taken a lot of punches to the gut here, but it fired you up to do it.

Everyone wants to see you win. Don't doubt that.


----------



## niceguy47460

Now that you told her how you feel and your boundary line . if you come home and he is there i would go to the bedroom and start packing her stuff for her to leave . because i would say she will see if you mean it or not . more than likely he will show up again . i would put cameras up so you can see if he comes over while you are gone and leaves before you get home . but don't let her know about the cameras . when it happens you have to act on what you said or it won't do any good .


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> OP update:
> 
> I did it. I had the conversation. I said what needed to be said and it was *uncomfortable*, as it should be.
> 
> Yep, it should have been
> 
> I lead by saying we need to talk about John and I’ve waited longer than I should have to do this. I said “you and John have crossed boundaries of mine long ago”. I told her that This has been eating at me and I owe it to her to do this. “John should not be coming over to visit you—especially when I’m not home. It’s inappropriate and makes me very uncomfortable.” I said. “And the fact that his wife is at work, and I’m working and he comes over here knowing that is very concerning. I’m not okay with it.” I went on to say that “if you want to be my wife, that means having a very clear line between the closeness you have with me and the level of closeness you have with any other man.” And said “I’m sick of playing second fiddle to John when he’s around and having to work for your attention because the two of you are so focused on each other. I capped it with “I’m not telling you what to do. I’m telling you where my line is if you want to be with me and you’ve crossed it. Have I been clear?”
> 
> I think you did an excellent job of laying out what's been going on and you'll not tolerate it.
> 
> She started to interrupt early on when I mentioned the texts between them—I expect to accuse me of invading her privacy, but she stopped herself before getting a word out.
> 
> There is no privacy like that in a good marriage. Period
> 
> She has hardly said a word since and seems angry/hurt and at the point of tears just sitting there in bed.
> 
> You know why? Because she knows you're right.
> 
> I feel much better already and want to thank you all.
> 
> You should because it needed said. If you nip these things in the bud early it's much easier
> 
> Now, how do you think I’ve done? how do you advise I move forward, TAM community?
> 
> I should mention that John’s wife is a teacher and school is out today so I expect John’s attention to be much less since his wife will be home.
> 
> *Oh, and I still have to talk to John.* I told my wife that I would be talking to him soon and letting him know that he is no longer welcome to come over and visit my wife when I’m not home.


Speak with him immediately. Very civil but direct. *It's not a debate either.* You aren't accusing him of anything you are lying out appropriate boundaries.

If he tries to debate. I'd say this isn't a debate. I'm telling you how it is. Period. 

That's all you need to say. Very matter of fact. Then leave. No joking, no kidding around. This is you standing your ground and accepting nothing less. Period.

He doesn't like it then that's his ****ing problem.

People like this if you give an inch they'll take a mile.

He doesn't like it no problem. You can be distant neighbors.

He caused a problem here not you.

It's exactly how No More Mr Nice Guy would handle it. 

Finish it. Face to face


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

And why so you think that she is sad and mad? That she wants to cry? Becouse you just said to her that she cant be with her boyfriend. She should be apologizing to you right now,not be mad and sad. Now,you go to OM and say to him that you dont want him to speak with your wife ever again and that he is no more welcome in your house EVER again!!!


----------



## Mr.Married

This should be man to man.

Talking to the wife makes it look like you can't man up to him .... which is a bad move.

Him first .... then you can judge his reaction and decide about her.


----------



## Marc878

TAMAT said:


> Nick,
> 
> Speak with OMW first layout all the evidence, you will likely find he is a serial cheater.
> 
> This may be the last straw for OMW and OM divorcing mean them selling the house.
> 
> If you tell the OM first he will paint you as an irrational or crazy person, get in the first punch or better yet a 50 cal. to the head.


IMO you need to address John. Going to his wife would lead him to believe you're affraid or to cowardly to speak to him directly. Not a message you want to send.

You said he's kinda Alfa and an ass. Perfect way to get your point across. Your message will be loud and clear that way.

Finish this once and for all. Allow no debate. State your boundary the leave. No further discussion.


----------



## Marc878

NickTheChemist said:


> *I should mention that John’s wife is a teacher and school is out today so I expect John’s attention to be much less since his wife will be home.*
> 
> Oh, and I still have to talk to John. I told my wife that I would be talking to him soon and letting him know that he is no longer welcome to come over and visit my wife when I’m not home.


That doesn't matter at all. It's only temporary. Finish it ASAP


----------



## Mr.Married

Read Marc878's post again .......

Do it ... no excuse .... ASAP.

Your already headed down the right road ... use your momentum.


Don't think for one second that she isn't thinking about / or already has texted him about it.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Thank you all. I wanted to speak with my wife before John. No that I have talked with her I am going to have the conversation with John. I don’t plan to bring his wife into any of this because their marriage is none of my business and I have proof of nothing. I expect John will respect my boundary. I will be brief and direct.


----------



## Mr.Married

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you all. I wanted to speak with my wife before John. No that I have talked with her I am going to have the conversation with John. I don’t plan to bring his wife into any of this because their marriage is none of my business and I have proof of nothing. I expect John will respect my boundary. I will be brief and direct.


Good plan .... Good Job .....Good Luck !


----------



## Marc878

Nick, you were successful.

You know why?
You were well prepared. (You took the time to figure out how to address this)
You were calm (at least outwardly)
You were direct
You were not open for debate (firm)

The same thing needs to apply to your neighbor. 

Look at it this way. You don't need him. Doing this **** means he's really not your friend. If he was you wouldn't have to be addressing the issues he's caused.


----------



## Marc878

^^^^ the above can/should be used for many occasions.

I do it all the time. Sometimes not so calmly though


----------



## Mr.Married

Anybody have opinions on including "I'll talk to your wife if I have to" as well in the conversation ?

It sets up the dynamic of including risk to John without actually having to talk to the wife upfront...or possibly ever.


----------



## Mr.Married

Marc878 said:


> ^^^^ the above can/should be used for many occasions.
> 
> I do it all the time. Sometimes not so calmly though


And follows up to:

Always know WHO you are talking to and WHAT they REALLY want. It is very often not what they are SAYING to you.


----------



## Marc878

Mr.Married said:


> Anybody have opinions on including "I'll talk to your wife if I have to" as well in the conversation ?
> 
> It sets up the dynamic of including risk to John without actually having to talk to the wife upfront...or possibly ever.


Id leave her out of it for now. This upfront needs to be man to man.

I'd bet that'll be enough


----------



## BruceBanner

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you all. I wanted to speak with my wife before John. No that I have talked with her I am going to have the conversation with John. I don’t plan to bring his wife into any of this because their marriage is none of my business and I have proof of nothing. I expect John will respect my boundary. I will be brief and direct.


I disagree. If John had any respect for you, the boundaries of your marriage, and the boundaries of his marriage he would've never been caught dead at your house alone with your wife when you're not there and especially not in an affair in the first place.


----------



## BioFury

Mr.Married said:


> Nick,
> 
> You got it out there and defined your boundary. Good Job.
> 
> Now that you said you will talk to John .... you must absolutely do it.
> 
> Know this: In her silence she is formulating a counter attack. Be ready for it. Stick to exactly what you said before ... maintain those boundries.
> 
> The only chance of scraping up some respect is to remain strong.
> 
> She will s**t test you .... be ready.


+1 

@NickTheChemist I'm glad you sat her down and talked, that's good work. But stay focused - as this is likely far from over. As I said previously, laying down your boundaries is like going to your first chemistry class. It's going to take strength and determination over the long-run in order for this to work out. Your wife is probably going to push against these boundaries, both out of anger/resentment, as well as to see what kind of stuff you're made of. Don't relent. Don't become complacent. 

I would also encourage you to include John's wife in what's happening. Yeah, their marriage isn't your concern, but you wouldn't be talking to her on account of their marriage, but your own. John's wife is a very potent ally. She'll keep an eye on her husband, as well as your wife, and help keep them on the straight and narrow.

Besides the fact that the relationship between your two families is going to change, as a reflection of these new boundaries, and it should come from you - rather than John or your wife, about what's happening, and why. Lest the story be twisted to paint you in an antagonistic light.


----------



## Decorum

Mr.Married said:


> Nick,
> 
> You got it out there and defined your boundary. Good Job.
> 
> Now that you said you will talk to John .... you must absolutely do it.
> 
> Know this: In her silence she is formulating a counter attack. Be ready for it. Stick to exactly what you said before ... maintain those boundries.
> 
> The only chance of scraping up some respect is to remain strong.
> 
> She will s**t test you .... be ready.


She will test you is right, and you will be tempted to secong guess yourself.

Don't!!!

You are doing this for you!!

You have actually embarked on a new way of life. If this is real for you, once you realize you have been living in fear, and sacrificing youself in a damaging and toxic way, you will never put that genie back in the bottle.

When she tests you, you can say you have had a breakthrough in your life, and you are changing and moving forward with healthy choices. You hope she will support you but you are moving forward either way.

Google "shyt test" spelled correctly of course. 

Google "holding frame".

Holding frame is knowing who you are, staying confident, and framing every encounter for your wellbeing, and not letting someone else frame that encounter in a way that is toxic to you.

Women find confidence and kindness very attractive. That is what you want to focus on.

True gentileness and kindness requires strength. 

Think of a lioness carrying it's cub in its mouth.

It can kill a gazelle or a hyena by clamping down on its neck, but it carries the cub.

Your wife is not your enemy. 

Your terrifying strength is meant for an enemy, but yet that cub learns and knows what the boundaries are, what their responsibilities are, and why it has to be that way.

Confidence, clarity, communication, kindness, firmness, gentleness. 


Btw your neighbor can easily slip into the enemy catagory, if you warn him and he continues to be a threat to your marriage. Don't let anyone shame you.
Tell them, "you can think anything you want of me as long as you are clear where the boundaries are"!

Show disapproval when necessary.
Don't accept her defining your actions, which are based on a healthy self-concept, as a negative.

Let her know when you are "not ok" with something. This is you simply being honest. Then end the conversation, and give her time to work through it.

You can ask if you think the time is right, "are you ready to talk about this?"

If she is not, then you do you, and give her time to get it.

This is like turning a big ship. You initiate the turn, can I say rudder, and leave that influence in place giving time for the ship to turn.

Btw, the 180 is done to help a betrayed spouse center and focus themselves in the midst of great suffering, so they can make good decisions from a position of strength.

It is meant to stop rewarding bad behavior on the part of the wayward spouse, and give self-control back to the betrayed. 

This is because infidelity is unlike any other problem in marriage and the "good decisions " are counterintuitive. 

The things you often focus on to help a marriage problem often make the situation worse when infidelity is involved.

This is why it can be a big mistake to do marriage counseling until the affair is stopped.

The 180 is not a long term strategy. 

Btw again, tell his wife exactly what has been happening, and how you feel about it.

Let her know that it went on longer than it should have because you felt uncomfortable addressing it.
You now realize that was a wrong approach, and you need to be more clear about it.

Stay confident, advocate for yourself. You have every right to do so.

I really wish you well.


----------



## lucy999

Wow great job Nick! As a woman who is turned off by "nice guys" I am really impressed. Keep it up.

Re: your talk with John. KISS- keep it simple, stupid. No I am in no way calling you stupid. But have you heard that phrase before? What I mean is, not alot of talkie talkie. The more talking you do the more weak you will appear. Tell him to stay away from your wife. If he starts to explain himself or hedges, don't give him alot of latitude or time. Because you really don't care about the reasoning. You care about the end result-that he is spending time alone with your wife and that's not ok. You don't have to be a **** about it. Firm and resolute is what you should be. Dont be afraid to walk away if he's in mid sentence blathering on. Strong men don't care about such nonsense. 

Well done, sir.

I hate to tell you this but your wife is crying for John. Not for you. She's butt hurt because you busted up her fun. This is the beginning of what could be a very difficult time. Steer the course.


----------



## syhoybenden

FieryHairedLady said:


> they probably BBQ'ed with the neighbors.
> 
> Who flipped the burgers?
> 
> You or neighbor guy?



Sadly Nick, John has probably been flipping your burger for some time now. You have still to find out, but your burger being sad and mad instead of shocked and apologetic is a huge clue.

If so, are you going to keep that burger? Or chuck it in the trash and go find yourself a fresh one?


----------



## samyeagar

lucy999 said:


> Wow great job Nick! As a woman who is turned off by "nice guys" I am really impressed. Keep it up.
> 
> Re: your talk with John. KISS- keep it simple, stupid. No I am in no way calling you stupid. But have you heard that phrase before? What I mean is, not alot of talkie talkie. The more talking you do the more weak you will appear. Tell him to stay away from your wife. If he starts to explain himself or hedges, don't give him alot of latitude or time. Because you really don't care about the reasoning. You care about the end result-that he is spending time alone with your wife and that's not ok. You don't have to be a **** about it. Firm and resolute is what you should be. Dont be afraid to walk away if he's in mid sentence blathering on. Strong men don't care about such nonsense.
> 
> Well done, sir.
> 
> I hate to tell you this but your wife is crying for John. Not for you. She's butt hurt because you busted up her fun. This is the beginning of what could be a very difficult time. Steer the course.


To add to this...Keep in the front of your mind that all of this is not a debate, it is not a negotiation, it is not a discussion. You have made a decision, established a boundary, have plan of action to enforce it. You are merely letting the players know what the rules are.


----------



## SunCMars

Mr.Married said:


> Nick,
> 
> You got it out there and defined your boundary. Good Job.
> 
> Now that you said you will talk to John .... you must absolutely do it.
> 
> Know this: In her silence she is formulating a counter attack. Be ready for it. Stick to exactly what you said before ... maintain those boundries.
> 
> The only chance of scraping up some respect is to remain strong.
> 
> *She will s**t test you .... be ready*.


Good post..

I can smell the rebellious farting already.

People seem to fight the hardest when they know they are wrong.

And when it hurts. Yes, the truth hurts

They fight the hardest when the end result changes the status quo away from their camp, her campy ways.

If she fights back and tries to flip this on you, or if she tries to make light of this, if she tries to gaslight you....
If she does any of these things, she is invested in the man. She is admitting of this being an emotional affair.

The fact that she initially started to counter your logic, then could not, says she knows she is wrong.
She knows she is guilty. 

How could she not?

How guilty is she?

Has she crossed the line with being overly chummy?
Has she crossed the line with inappropriate words?
Has she kissed him when no one is home?
Has she allowed him to intimately touch her?
Has she allowed him to penetrate her?

We know that they have been too chummy, too close, too friendly.

As adults, in a house alone, chummy can become very caring, close can become clinging, ever so tightly, and naked, friendly can become intimacy. 

What exactly would stop them? 
With them being alone in your house?
Boundaries would.

Boundaries? 
Has your wife and John exhibited any boundaries?

Do not just talk to 'him'. 
I said way earlier, talk to both of them, John and his wife.

Use your words and your concern on the two of them, at the same time.

Make John squirm in front of his wife......return the favor. 
He has been doing that to you for some time, eh?





[THM]- Nemesis


----------



## turnera

Mr.Married said:


> Nick,
> 
> You got it out there and defined your boundary. Good Job.
> 
> Now that you said you will talk to John .... you must absolutely do it.
> 
> Know this: In her silence she is formulating a counter attack. Be ready for it. Stick to exactly what you said before ... maintain those boundries.
> 
> The only chance of scraping up some respect is to remain strong.
> 
> She will s**t test you .... be ready.


Not necessarily. This may be the man she's been waiting to emerge. She may be glad and flattered. And embarrassed. We'll have to wait and see.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Mr.Married said:


> then you can judge his reaction and decide about her.


Nope. You talk to her regardless of the reaction. The wife already brought it up, IMO, to alert Nick. He tells her so, he has an ally if dude sneaks over there or texts her again. Two sets of eyes are better than one.



PHP:







turnera said:


> Not necessarily. This may be the man she's been waiting to emerge. She may be glad and flattered. And embarrassed. We'll have to wait and see.


Yes, but they have been disrespectful for longer than a few months. He needs to be prepared because she will falter. I have yet to read a story here, where the offending spouse gets it right during the first talk. There is always some pouting, boundrary testing and anger.


----------



## Spicy

I would call John and his wife when you can see and know they are both home and say you need to come talk to them BOTH for about 3 minutes.

When you get there and they invite you in, decline saying, “this will be brief.”

“My marriage is one of the most important things in my life, and I will do anything to guard and protect it. As couples, things have gotten too lax between the 4 of us, because we are close and we have fun together as families. 

I’m talking to you both because we are all four involved. I need to set a couple of boundaries. From now on, if texting needs to happen between us, let’s do it in a group text, that all four of us are able to see. I find it inappropriate for John to be texting my wife in private. John, I also will not be directly texting your wife privately.

Also, I want to set a very clear boundary here. If I am not home, from now on you need to wait until I am there before you come over John. I understand you have free time during the day, but it can’t be spent with my wife. That’s inappropriate. If the kids want to play, they will have to wait until I am home. I find it unacceptable for you to be spending time with my wife alone, without either one of your spouses present. I’m sure you agree that can lead to a lot of problems that none of us want. In return, I will do the same, and never be spending time alone with your wife.

I know you both agree that we want to keep our marriages safe, so this is what Mrs. Chemist and I are going to be doing. Her and I already discussed this and although she seems upset, she understands the boundaries I want made. I value our friendship and we have enjoyed having you as neighbors, but ultimately I cherish my marriage the most, and as a protection these are the guidelines.”

Forget taking to the wife separate or later or whatever. Get her involved and do it in front of her. This serves SO many purposes but a few main ones are:

-Alerts her to what is going on
-He’s gonna get grilled by her after 
-She will know something is causing this discussion, and if she loves him she will be all over him to make sure he stops. Hearing that the rule change upset your wife will really get her on guard.
-It shows John you are confident, and willing to address this straight up to everyone and they need to all fall in line.
-He has to treat you better in front of his wife, so this may prevent having to deal with him being an Alpha jerk about it. 

I’m not trying to go against everyone, because all my friends on here have given great advice, but I would include the wife and be straight up with both of them. Don’t sugar coat it, and don’t yell it. Do it confident and with seriousness.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, you include the wife, but I say separately. He already said this dude is Alpha, shaming him in front of his wife can add an entirely new subset of issues. Spouses defend cheaters, you've seen it and I've seen it, to an irrational degree. She might agree with everything Nick says, but the presentation could create trouble. 

The one thing I disagree with is he has to treat him better. Nope, I've seen men and women go gaga over their spouse stepping up to put someone in their place. It could go bad quickly.

I mean, we have a few threads where the betrayed spouse filed a protective order against the informing betrayed spouse.


----------



## SunCMars

@NickTheChemist




> This would all be fine if my wife and I had a strong marriage with healthy communication, but we definitely don’t, although I am trying. I am the emotional and sexual pursuer. She has many emotional walls and* sex is usually great, but very infrequent (18 times all of last year)*
> 
> There was another time early in our marriage where she was out of town and went out to a club with friends (totally okay), but was drinking and got inappropriate dancing with her friend’s fiancé (just dancing). She came clean about that a few years later.



Think about it....

This is from your first post...

Your wife is a healthy women, in her prime. You have sex once a month, maybe twice. That is a near 'sexless' marriage.
Her telling you about the time she dirty danced with her friends fiance' was her way of saying to you that she can fall from grace.
And that she wants you to be possessive and jealous. You did not, you disappointed her.

That is her telling you that she is a sexual being. 
No surprise here, most women are.

When it comes to the ways of women I follow @turneras cue. 
She knows them. 
She is one.

Your sex starved wife is after....seeking dear John.

Think about this...

If you were a women and you wanted a man, wanted to capture him.....
What would you do, what actions would you take?

Ah..

You would always smile around him.
You would laugh at his jokes.
You would fuss over him.
You would make him comfortable.
You would be coy around him.
You would tease him.
You would lightly touch him...often.
You would encourage him to be with you, ask him things, ask for help.
You would note those things that he is interested in and 'bone' up on them. You would bring these things up to keep his interest 'up and peaked'.
You would forever watch his crotch, looking for stirring, for a reaction, for prurient interest.
You would try to get him into secluded places, hoping he makes a move.
You would open the top two buttons on your blouses, not wear a bra.
You would dress up nice for him.
You would wear nice perfume.
You would fuss over your appearance in the mirror before meeting him.
You would wear tight clothing, if you had a tight figure, 
You would wear loose clothing is you had a full figure, if possible, no bra, no panties.
You would bend over in front of him, letting him have a view of your boobs.
You would bend over in front of him, letting him have a view of your butt.
You would sit near him at all times, forcing him to take note, to be aware of you.
You would look him in the eye and say, 'Yes' with those batting eyes.


----------



## Mr.Married

Spicy said:


> I would call JOHN and his wife when you can see and know they are both home and say you need to come talk to them BOTH for about 3 minutes.
> 
> When you get there and they invite you in, decline saying, “this will be brief.”
> 
> “My marriage is one of the most important things in my life, and I will do anything to guard and protect it. As couples, things have gotten too lax between the 4 of us, because we are close and we have fun together as families.
> 
> I’m talking to you both because we are all four involved. I need to set a couple of boundaries. From now on, if texting needs to happen between us, let’s do it in a group text, that all four of us are able to see. I find it inappropriate for John to be texting my wife in private. John, I also will not be directly texting your wife privately.
> 
> Also, I want to set a very clear boundary here. If I am not home, from now on you need to wait until I am there before you come over John. I understand you have free time during the day, but it can’t be spent with my wife. That’s inappropriate. If the kids want to play, they will have to wait until I am home. I find it unacceptable for you to be spending time with my wife alone, without either one of your spouses present. I’m sure you agree that can lead to a lot of problems that none of us want. In return, I will do the same, and never be spending time alone with your wife.
> 
> I know you both agree that we want to keep our marriages safe, so this is what Mrs. Chemist and I are going to be doing. Her and I already discussed this and although she seems upset, she understands the boundaries I want made. I value our friendship and we have enjoyed having you as neighbors, but ultimately I cherish my marriage the most, and as a protection these are the guidelines.”
> 
> Forget taking to the wife separate or later or whatever. Get her involved and do it in front of her. This serves SO many purposes but a few main ones are:
> 
> -Alerts her to what is going on
> -He’s gonna get grilled by her after
> -She will know something is causing this discussion, and if she loves him she will be all over him to make sure he stops. Hearing that the rule change upset your wife will really get her on guard.
> -It shows John you are confident, and willing to address this straight up to everyone and they need to all fall in line.
> -He has to treat you better in front of his wife, so this may prevent having to deal with him being an Alpha jerk about it.
> 
> I’m not trying to go against everyone, because all my friends on here have given great advice, but I would include the wife and be straight up with both of them. Don’t sugar coat it, and don’t yell it. Do it confident and with seriousness.


Sounds good. I like it....BUT:

Chemist: Is it too long .... maybe a slightly shorter version?

I'm wondering if his new "Alpha Style" for lack of better term is gonna hold under someone besides his wife.

He might be able to hold frame a little better under a shorter duration.

Less chance to slip up and studder ...

Just a thought .......


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Mr.Married said:


> Sounds good. I like it....BUT:
> 
> Chemist: Is it too long .... maybe a slightly shorter version?
> 
> I'm wondering if his new "Alpha Style" for lack of better term is gonna hold under someone besides his wife.
> 
> He might be able to hold frame a little better under a shorter duration.
> 
> Less chance to slip up and studder ...
> 
> Just a thought .......


I thought it was a nice post, way too wordy though. Not all of that needs to be said. 

Needs to be more direct and short and to the point.


----------



## Decorum

turnera said:


> Not necessarily. This may be the man she's been waiting to emerge. She may be glad and flattered. And embarrassed. We'll have to wait and see.


Yes, even sometimes people's needs change. Sometimes a woman wants a safe choice, but can get to the place where she wants something more. The Op can be something more, and I hope the two arrive at the same place at the same time.


----------



## Spicy

FieryHairedLady said:


> I thought it was a nice post, way too wordy though. Not all of that needs to be said.
> 
> Needs to be more direct and short and to the point.


Probably. He needs to make it his own obviously. Get the bulletpoints down of what he needs to say, then go for it. 

Truth be told, that is how I personally would say it, and each piece is in there for a reason. I write like I talk, which is too wordy also!!! :grin2:


----------



## BioFury

Spicy said:


> Probably. He needs to make it his own obviously. Get the bulletpoints down of what he needs to say, then go for it.
> 
> Truth be told, that is how I personally would say it, and each piece is in there for a reason. I write like I talk, which is too wordy also!!! :grin2:


Well, he kinda needs to _not _make it his own, lol. Being verbose is a nice guy thing, and he needs to start being more direct. Pithier.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Spicy said:


> Probably. He needs to make it his own obviously. Get the bulletpoints down of what he needs to say, then go for it.
> 
> Truth be told, that is how I personally would say it, and each piece is in there for a reason. I write like I talk, which is too wordy also!!! :grin2:


I am wordy too. But in this instance male or female, whatever is said needs to be short and to the point. 

Less talk, more action.

I also think these families don't need to be associating any more either. Obviously too much temptation for the wife and the other hubby.

Nip it all in the bud, cold turkey.


----------



## BioFury

Also, @NickTheChemist, how much have you and your wife had sex this year so far? When you initiate, what does that typically look like? How does she respond? Both when she says no, and when she says yes.

I ask, because the reason your wife is fraternizing with John, is because her relationship with you is missing something. Something that effects her respect, and desire for you. Establishing and _maintaining _boundaries is going to boost your respectability, now we need to look at your desirability.


----------



## FieryHairedLady

Ok neighbor situation is getting handled. Cool.

Next step.

Something needs to be done about the state of your marriage. 

This woman chose to marry you and have multiple kids with you, but is withholding in the bedroom. 

I really try not to delve into peoples bedroom lives. 


But this neighbor is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

Your wife doesn't want to be with you, be intimate with you, or spend time with you.

She doesn't respect you.

This marriage is falling apart. 


Most women do not want a man they can trample over.

She has trampled over you with the neighbor situation.

She has trampled over you with the bedroom situation.

I am sure this is a recurring theme.


Something needs to change and fast.


----------



## Robert22205

Congrats on standing up for yourself. 

You are not the first (nor the last) to find yourself in this situation. Our strength is sharing. Please update us so the next victim can 'listen' and learn from your experience.

What points did you make with your wife (and John) and what were their responses?


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> OP update:
> 
> I did it. I had the conversation. I said what needed to be said and it was uncomfortable, as it should be.
> 
> I lead by saying we need to talk about John and I’ve waited longer than I should have to do this. I said “you and John have crossed boundaries of mine long ago”. I told her that This has been eating at me and I owe it to her to do this. “John should not be coming over to visit you—especially when I’m not home. It’s inappropriate and makes me very uncomfortable.” I said. “And the fact that his wife is at work, and I’m working and he comes over here knowing that is very concerning. I’m not okay with it.” I went on to say that “if you want to be my wife, that means having a very clear line between the closeness you have with me and the level of closeness you have with any other man.” And said “I’m sick of playing second fiddle to John when he’s around and having to work for your attention because the two of you are so focused on each other. I capped it with “I’m not telling you what to do. I’m telling you where my line is if you want to be with me and you’ve crossed it. Have I been clear?”
> 
> She started to interrupt early on when I mentioned the texts between them—I expect to accuse me of invading her privacy, but she stopped herself before getting a word out.
> 
> She has hardly said a word since and seems angry/hurt and at the point of tears just sitting there in bed.
> 
> I feel much better already and want to thank you all.
> 
> Now, how do you think I’ve done? how do you advise I move forward, TAM community?
> 
> I should mention that John’s wife is a teacher and school is out today so I expect John’s attention to be much less since his wife will be home.
> 
> Oh, and I still have to talk to John. I told my wife that I would be talking to him soon and letting him know that he is no longer welcome to come over and visit my wife when I’m not home.


It doesn’t sound like your wife agreed with what you have told her. 

Did the two of you talk it over after your speech or did she stay quiet?

What are the consequences for your wife if she doesn’t do as you have said?

What are the consequences for John if he blows you off after your talk with him?

You have no way of knowing if he continues to visit. 

You have told your wife what you expect of her with her not saying she will or will not follow it. 

No real progress it stopping this.


----------



## Prodigal

@NickTheChemist - Please keep us posted on what happens with this situation. I sincerely hope your wife starts to respect you for the stance you have taken.

One thing I want to say, is that this is about so much more than John the Jerk. This is about your wife showing blatant disrespect for you as her husband. Also, she is not being a loving wife. It sounds like she is downright mean to you. Nick, you deserve to be loved. After all, we all want love and connection in our closest relationships.

And speaking of that, it sounds like you are not only physically starved but also emotionally starved. If you don't want to divorce now, that's fine. But please look at this marriage for what it is right now: You have a nasty wife who behaves like a recalcitrant child. That is not the type of wife you DESERVE. Now you have to get to the point that you firmly believe that is not the type of wife you WANT.

Your wife is treating you badly. I hope you can clearly see that what she is doing is unacceptable.

Keep us updated, and good luck.


----------



## AliceA

Ultimately the 'other' person issue is a symptom of a deeper issue, and you can put a band aid on it for now by trying to control who she hangs out with and when, but the underlying infection is not going away.


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> She has hardly said a word since and seems angry/hurt and at the point of tears just sitting there in bed.


 Her response of hardly saying a word and being "angry/hurt" shows defiance and not agreement with your boundaries concerning John. I am worried that you have gone dark as the reality of this has sunk in. 

You asked before in post #262 "What do you consider strong if it is not setting a boundary", and were told in post #277 that the answer is “setting consequences that go with that boundary”; an answer that you liked. In post #283 you then stated that “I actually did end up laying out the consequences by stating that she would need to have a clear line between me and every other man if she wants to be my wife. It was like vomiting for me to get those words out, but I feel much better now that I’ve done what I think is right”. There is a big difference between just saying what what you think is right and actually doing it. If your wife has not clearly and unequivocally agreed to honor the stated boundaries, then it is time to implement the promised consequences. By not agreeing, your wife is in effect calling your bluff and telling you to either put up or shut up. What are you going to do about it?


----------



## Robert22205

Why live with uncertainty? Her not responding is another way for her to take control.

Now that she's had time to think. I suggest asking for a definitive reply of yes or no. 

If you sense that she has difficulty communicating verbally, then suggest she write it out to you in an email (but it needs to include a yes or no).

She may try to justify her behavior or her right to have friends in general - but that's secondary to her specific relationship with this particular man. 
She needs to give you a clear yes or no with respect to the neighbor.


----------



## NickTheChemist

Updated:

I’m sorry for going dark—tried to update password and locked myself out and didn’t take the time to mess with it for a bit.

Things are going surprisingly well. Wife was quite and distant for the first day, but I stayed steadfast and ignored it—just kept on doing my thing, giving attention to the kids, having fun, etc. I was kind and cordial but did not pursue her. She came around pretty quickly. 

John is on vacation with his family, but I will talk to him man to man when he returns.

Wife got really *****y and downright mean at me over nothing this weekend. I stood up to her and said that I respected myself too much to continue allowing her to treat me like that. I didn’t say much, but was firm in what I did say. Half an hour later she apologized and has been nice since. 

I’m not sure ehat the next step is in my marriage after laying down the law with John, but there is need for improvement everywhere.

She and our 3 kiddos are visiting our parents next week—I’ll be apart from here 9 days. I’ll miss them all, but I think this could be very helpful right now to spend some time apart. I kinda want to unplug for a bit and see if she will come towards me emotionally. Not to play games—just that I’m tired of chasing her all the time and asking for closeness, ya know?

Thoughts? Advice?


----------



## NickTheChemist

I should mention wife has offered to do whatever I wish about John and his family including cutting them out, selling our house, etc. the consequences had to sink in for a while, but she did break.


----------



## turnera

I wouldn't unplug until (1) you've read John the riot act and (2) you have installed some sort of spyware on her electronics.


----------



## Marc878

At this time I'd do normal communication but not chase her. The thing is you may want her but you don't need her. You should have seen that my now.

A little take charge goes a long way I suspect.

Address the neighbor ASAP. I'd check the phone bill if it were me just to see if they are in contact.

Just a precaution.


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Updated:
> 
> I’m sorry for going dark—tried to update password and locked myself out and didn’t take the time to mess with it for a bit.
> 
> Things are going surprisingly well. Wife was quite and distant for the first day, but I stayed steadfast and ignored it—just kept on doing my thing, giving attention to the kids, having fun, etc. I was kind and cordial but did not pursue her. She came around pretty quickly.
> 
> John is on vacation with his family, but I will talk to him man to man when he returns.
> 
> Wife got really *****y and downright mean at me over nothing this weekend. I stood up to her and said that I respected myself too much to continue allowing her to treat me like that. I didn’t say much, but was firm in what I did say. Half an hour later she apologized and has been nice since.
> 
> I’m not sure ehat the next step is in my marriage after laying down the law with John, but there is need for improvement everywhere.
> 
> She and our 3 kiddos are visiting our parents next week—I’ll be apart from here 9 days. I’ll miss them all, but I think this could be very helpful right now to spend some time apart. I kinda want to unplug for a bit and see if she will come towards me emotionally. Not to play games—just that I’m tired of chasing her all the time and asking for closeness, ya know?
> 
> Thoughts? Advice?


I would suggest the next step, is finding a person, or group, that will keep you accountable. If you like this board, we can help. We all know from experience that it's all too easy to fall back into old behavior patterns. So if you take the time to give us weekly updates on what's going on, then we can encourage you when things are going well, and offer advice if things are going sideways. The goal being to keep you moving in a positive direction.

I would purchase the audiobook verson of "No More Mr. Nice Guy", that way you don't have to find time to sit down and read it. But can listen to it as your drive, exercise, clean... whenever. Audio books are a great tool for keeping important things in mind. And it will serve as a consistent reminder to be a strong man, not a nice one. 

But as I said in another post, I think the sex and affection department is the next frontier. How are things looking in that area as of now? How often do you guys kiss? Is there any consistent physical affection taking place? How do you typically initiate sex? How does she typically respond?



NickTheChemist said:


> I should mention wife has offered to do whatever I wish about John and his family including cutting them out, selling our house, etc. the consequences had to sink in for a while, but she did break.


That's great news! It looks like you're doing good man. Stay frosty though, don't let yourself slack off.


----------



## Robert22205

Is the OM blocked on her phone?

Did she voluntarily offer to sell the house and move? Where did that come from? 

Your wife appears to be responding positively to your boundary. That is extreme NC coming from her - and may suggest that even though she wants to distance herself that she anticipates that the OM won't go away easily. Salesman are very persistent and used to calling again & again. Your talk with the OM is even more timely and relevant. 

When you speak with the OM, make it clear at the start that you want him to listen (not interrupt). Don't argue or reply when he responds that they're friendship is harmless (the only thing that's relevant about your marriage is how it makes you feel). As your 'friend' and neighbor he should do whatever it takes to make you comfortable.

You know the neighbors better than I and what level of interaction is required. However, NOTE: by excluding the wife in the conversation you are giving the OM the opportunity to do damage control by labeling you a jealous and/or controlling nut job (a certain reaction from him). 

Since you're leaving home for 9 days, I suggest monitoring the house. 

And if you catch them together again, her response will be: we met for one last time for closure. 

Make it clear that you expect her to report any contact or attempted contact to you.


----------



## Yeswecan

NickTheChemist said:


> I should mention wife has offered to do whatever I wish about John and his family including cutting them out, selling our house, etc. the consequences had to sink in for a while, but she did break.


Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Trust but verify. Watch your W actions.


----------



## Malaise

NickTheChemist said:


> I should mention wife has offered to do whatever I wish about John and his family including cutting them out, selling our house, etc. the consequences had to sink in for a while, but she did break.


The consequences only sank in though because of what you said not because she came to that conclusion on her own. And if you said nothing it would have continued. 

Or am I wrong?


----------



## NickTheChemist

BioFury said:


> Also, @NickTheChemist, how much have you and your wife had sex this year so far? When you initiate, what does that typically look like? How does she respond? Both when she says no, and when she says yes.
> 
> I ask, because the reason your wife is fraternizing with John, is because her relationship with you is missing something. Something that effects her respect, and desire for you. Establishing and _maintaining _boundaries is going to boost your respectability, now we need to look at your desirability.



I will be forthright. We’ve had sex twice a month this year, which is the most regularly it has been in years (10 times so far this year). 

I am always the initiator. I have to pay close attention to her cycle and initiate based on when she has desire. I’ll tell her that I want her—that I love and desire her. She usually will say no unless it is on a Friday night/Saturday morning at the right time in her cycle. When she says no, it’s a cold no with one of a few excuses about being tired/exhausted/sore back, Ext. When she says yes, she’s pretty awkward until she is turned on. 

I want sex with her much more often (3-4 times a week), but I don’t pester or beg anymore like I used to. 

You’re right that she has low/no desire for me now. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem limiting her desire. I believe it is determined by how she feels in our relationship and how she sees me.


----------



## NickTheChemist

I’ll be here at home—wife and kids are gone for 9 days before I fly out to join them at the in-laws house.


----------



## NickTheChemist

BioFury said:


> I would suggest the next step, is finding a person, or group, that will keep you accountable. If you like this board, we can help. We all know from experience that it's all too easy to fall back into old behavior patterns. So if you take the time to give us weekly updates on what's going on, then we can encourage you when things are going well, and offer advice if things are going sideways. The goal being to keep you moving in a positive direction.
> 
> I would purchase the audiobook verson of "No More Mr. Nice Guy", that way you don't have to find time to sit down and read it. But can listen to it as your drive, exercise, clean... whenever. Audio books are a great tool for keeping important things in mind. And it will serve as a consistent reminder to be a strong man, not a nice one.
> 
> But as I said in another post, I think the sex and affection department is the next frontier. How are things looking in that area as of now? How often do you guys kiss? Is there any consistent physical affection taking place? How do you typically initiate sex? How does she typically respond?
> 
> 
> 
> That's great news! It looks like you're doing good man. Stay frosty though, don't let yourself slack off.



She does not initiate any physical contact with me at all. Period. It’s so sad to me because physical touch is extremely important to me and I just go without. At times in years past I’ve stopped initiating contact and sex to see how long it would take for her to notice. At one point it went past 11 weeks. I don’t know that she even noticed. 

There was no physical affection from her parents growing up. Even now they give her a quick awkward side hug when saying goodbye to her. It’s so sad to me. 

My wife no longer likes to kiss—unless overwhelmed with passion.

The sex is usually great and very satisfying for both of us. She then quickly reverts to modesty and will not speak of it again—refuses to talk about our sex life snd takes it as attack and criticism when I try to have conversations about sex.

I make a point to show her affection in front of my children and she plays along—even lets me kiss her.
She will hold my hand when we walk together on a date, but not for long.


----------



## MEM2020

She doesn’t respect you. Full stop. Only you can fix that. 




NickTheChemist said:


> I will be forthright. We’ve had sex twice a month this year, which is the most regularly it has been in years (10 times so far this year).
> 
> I am always the initiator. I have to pay close attention to her cycle and initiate based on when she has desire. I’ll tell her that I want her—that I love and desire her. She usually will say no unless it is on a Friday night/Saturday morning at the right time in her cycle. When she says no, it’s a cold no with one of a few excuses about being tired/exhausted/sore back, Ext. When she says yes, she’s pretty awkward until she is turned on.
> 
> I want sex with her much more often (3-4 times a week), but I don’t pester or beg anymore like I used to.
> 
> You’re right that she has low/no desire for me now. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem limiting her desire. I believe it is determined by how she feels in our relationship and how she sees me.


----------



## Marc878

MEM2020 said:


> She doesn’t respect you. Full stop. Only you can fix that.


Yep, you've took a giant step. Keep up the momentum.

Strength is attractive. It is just that simple


----------



## Marc878

As long as you accept this you'll only get the same.

You've taught her what's acceptable


----------



## NickTheChemist

MEM2020 said:


> She doesn’t respect you. Full stop. Only you can fix that.


What do you mean by “full stop”?


----------



## Wolfman1968

NickTheChemist said:


> What do you mean by “full stop”?


It's an expression. It is meant to emphasize the statement which was just said. Meaning, the statement just said is so important that nothing more should be added to it to dilute its impact.

A similar expression in US English is to say "Period". As in: "Your behavior has to stop. Period. No ands, ifs or buts about it."

(As I understand it, in British English, the punctuation mark that we call the "period" in the US is referred to as a "full stop.")


----------



## MEM2020

I apologize Nick, my post was poorly written. 

I should have written this:

1. She needs to respect you which she WILL if you continue to calmly tell her that treating you bad is a non starter.
2. You need to find a way to be fun and playful, and then if it becomes obvious that she is going to keep being the ice princess you ought to reevaluate. Sex needs to be fun for her too. More on that below. 

If M2 was cold and nasty about sex when she wasn’t interested, I’d probably give her a couple friendly warnings and then echo that response when she asked me for something that was important. 

Nick - the way she rejects you for sex - that’s called contempt. It’s why she was near an open affair in front of you. 

So my final comment is this. The reason you failed at self improvement when you came here way back when, is you were defensive and stonewalled. You weren’t rude or jerky, but you were very ego protective. You were very focused on letting us know you were handsome and fit and made really good money. You ducked and dodged and bobbed and weaved and then just fled your own thread - when pressed on a very basic question. Why the heck didn’t you address the kissing thing when it happened. 

Kissing is a big deal, the fact that you chose to keep having - what was maybe bad sex for her - without addressing that - seemed fairly selfish to me. And if you think that - when she shut down kissing - you pretending that nothing untoward was happening - was ok with her - you are being unrealistic. Choosing to avoid the hard conversation about how sex feels for her, and why the kissing was a bust - likely made her see you as a fearful and self focused person, not a confident person. 

If you don’t fix what is broken between you, she will simply begin another inappropriate relationship. 

And fwiw, there are only 3 dimensions to kissing: breath smell (good, bad or neutral), pacing (how fast you begin sharing pathogens), and the mechanics of the kiss. 






NickTheChemist said:


> What do you mean by “full stop”?


----------



## MEM2020

That is normally correct Wolf. Sadly for ADHD folk like me, sometimes we realize we left something important out. 




Wolfman1968 said:


> It's an expression. It is meant to emphasize the statement which was just said. Meaning, the statement just said is so important that nothing more should be added to it to dilute its impact.
> 
> A similar expression in US English is to say "Period". As in: "Your behavior has to stop. Period. No ands, ifs or buts about it."
> 
> (As I understand it, in British English, the punctuation mark that we call the "period" in the US is referred to as a "full stop.")


----------



## mickybill

"I should mention wife has offered to do whatever I wish about John and his family including cutting them out, selling our house, etc. the consequences had to sink in for a while, but she did break."

I am not sure where things are with your wife and John and if you think it somehow was deeper than a EA. Breaking contact and cutting them out is reasonable if "nothing" had happened but selling the house seems a bit extreme if "nothing' had happened, are you still investigating?
OTOH this whole EA will be background noise until one of you moves...

The break will do you both some good. Maybe reset a few things including passion.


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> She does not initiate any physical contact with me at all. Period. It’s so sad to me because physical touch is extremely important to me and I just go without. At times in years past I’ve stopped initiating contact and sex to see how long it would take for her to notice. At one point it went past 11 weeks. I don’t know that she even noticed.





NickTheChemist said:


> My wife no longer likes to kiss


Most researchers define a “sexless marriage” as having sex 10 or less times a year. It sounds to me like there were some years where that was true in your marriage. You definitely are in a “passionless marriage”.

As a man you need non-sexual physical touching from a partner that enjoys it just as much as you need sex. Your marriage is in deep trouble long term, and there is no sure fire fix.


----------



## Yeswecan

Mismatch. It will be very hard to stay in a marriage like this.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Yeswecan said:


> Mismatch. It will be very hard to stay in a marriage like this.




Yes it will. 
@badsanta



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> I will be forthright. We’ve had sex twice a month this year, which is the most regularly it has been in years (10 times so far this year).
> 
> I am always the initiator. I have to pay close attention to her cycle and initiate based on when she has desire. I’ll tell her that I want her—that I love and desire her. She usually will say no unless it is on a Friday night/Saturday morning at the right time in her cycle. When she says no, it’s a cold no with one of a few excuses about being tired/exhausted/sore back, Ext. When she says yes, she’s pretty awkward until she is turned on.
> 
> I want sex with her much more often (3-4 times a week), but I don’t pester or beg anymore like I used to.
> 
> You’re right that she has low/no desire for me now. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem limiting her desire. I believe it is determined by how she feels in our relationship and how she sees me.





NickTheChemist said:


> She does not initiate any physical contact with me at all. Period. It’s so sad to me because physical touch is extremely important to me and I just go without. At times in years past I’ve stopped initiating contact and sex to see how long it would take for her to notice. At one point it went past 11 weeks. I don’t know that she even noticed.
> 
> There was no physical affection from her parents growing up. Even now they give her a quick awkward side hug when saying goodbye to her. It’s so sad to me.
> 
> My wife no longer likes to kiss—unless overwhelmed with passion.
> 
> The sex is usually great and very satisfying for both of us. She then quickly reverts to modesty and will not speak of it again—refuses to talk about our sex life snd takes it as attack and criticism when I try to have conversations about sex.
> 
> I make a point to show her affection in front of my children and she plays along—even lets me kiss her.
> She will hold my hand when we walk together on a date, but not for long.


Ok, the first thing you need to do, is bring kissing and physical touch back to your marriage. Affection is mandatory if sex is to take place. So I would start by telling your wife that you'd like to start cuddling everyday. Just for a few minutes (10 or so), though you can of course go longer if she's into it. Do not initiate sexual contact during this cuddle time. Just hold her, and engage in other affectionate touching. Rubbing her back, playing with her hair, playing with her hand with yours, etc. There isn't an exact formula, just do what you want to do, only avoid her sexual zones (butt, breasts, and groin). This needs to be a time where she can start feeling comfortable being affectionate with you, without the expectation of sex. So don't screw that up by initiating sex. If she initiates, fine. 

So tell her your plan, that you'd like to hold her and cuddle every day, either before you get up, or before you go to sleep, and see what she says. If she says agrees, then add that you would also like for the two of you to start seeing a marital counselor. Already have an appointment booked for a time you know the both of you will be available, and tell her that you'd like her to come with you.

When it comes time to cuddle, do no ask her "Can we cuddle now?", just get in bed and cuddle up to her. Once her initial consent has been given in your initial talk, be assertive. Don't ask her for snuggles, or ask if she's in the mood to cuddle, just do it, and enjoy it yourself. You enjoying yourself, and being relaxed, will give her permission to do so as well. Though it will likely take a while for her to start opening up to your affection. Make it a part of your daily lives.

Now, if she says no to cuddling, then go straight into saying that you'd like for the two of you to go to marital counseling. Once again, have the appointment booked at a good time, and tell her that you'd like her to come with you. Get a counselor that's female. This will make your wife more comfortable, and you don't want her talking to another man about the intimacy in your marriage. If she doesn't like the counselor, try another one. It's important she like them, or she won't be receptive to their advice. Though it's entirely possible she won't like any of them, simply because she doesn't want to talk about your problems.

The second thing is kissing. Women like kissing, so your wife being against it is a big red flag. Either she finds you so repulsive she can't stand it, or she has hang ups from childhood. Did she have a conservative upbringing? Did you guys make out a lot during your dating years?



Yeswecan said:


> Mismatch. It will be very hard to stay in a marriage like this.


I don't think there's necessarily a drive mismatch at play here. I think his wife has hangups, the first of which possibly being that she was raised absent any type of physical affection. And the second, that Nick allowed himself to be castrated by her, which is obviously not sexually appealing to a woman.


----------



## blazer prophet

NickTheChemist said:


> Updated:
> 
> I’m sorry for going dark—tried to update password and locked myself out and didn’t take the time to mess with it for a bit.
> 
> Things are going surprisingly well. Wife was quite and distant for the first day, but I stayed steadfast and ignored it—just kept on doing my thing, giving attention to the kids, having fun, etc. I was kind and cordial but did not pursue her. She came around pretty quickly.
> 
> John is on vacation with his family, but I will talk to him man to man when he returns.
> 
> Wife got really *****y and downright mean at me over nothing this weekend. I stood up to her and said that I respected myself too much to continue allowing her to treat me like that. I didn’t say much, but was firm in what I did say. Half an hour later she apologized and has been nice since.
> 
> I’m not sure ehat the next step is in my marriage after laying down the law with John, but there is need for improvement everywhere.
> 
> She and our 3 kiddos are visiting our parents next week—I’ll be apart from here 9 days. I’ll miss them all, but I think this could be very helpful right now to spend some time apart. I kinda want to unplug for a bit and see if she will come towards me emotionally. Not to play games—just that I’m tired of chasing her all the time and asking for closeness, ya know?
> 
> Thoughts? Advice?


Nick, I have read the entire thread- but just your posts, so this may be redundant...

First, I cannot stress enough this conversation should be with John and his wife. My job is dealing with conflict. Literally, all day long it's all I do. I am an advisor to businesspeople. Be polite, firm, short- John and your wife have become too close, it's having a very bad effect on your marriage and it needs to stop. You have spoken with your wife and she gets it and now you seek his respect for your marriage. They don't have to ignore each other, but the quantity and quality of time they spend is the issue. 

Second, while I like you doing the '180' with your wife, don't forsake her. She still needs your love and attention as is due her. She needs to know, however, you are not going to o the "pick me" dance. A suggestion- stay in close touch with her while she is gone. She how she responds. 

She seems to need a little attitude adjustment. I think that can easily be accomplished.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> I’ll be here at home—wife and kids are gone for 9 days before I fly out to join them at the in-laws house.


While you're waiting, read Married Man Sex Life Primer to see how to get romance back in your marriage.


----------



## Blondilocks

"There was no physical affection from her parents growing up. Even now they give her a quick awkward side hug when saying goodbye to her. It’s so sad to me."

This is a major part of her problem. Physical displays of affection were withheld and your wife grew up in a household where she did not learn the joy of touching another person.

A therapist can assign exercises to get her accustomed to being comfortable with touching you. She can learn to be physically affectionate with you. A hand on your back or shoulder for a few seconds will not intimidate her and so on. It isn't a lost cause but it will require patience and perseverance. 

As another member mentioned, do not try to initiate any sexual feelings while she is learning. It will take time for her to develop and appreciate her tactile sense with another person.


----------



## MEM2020

He’s been physically crowding her their entire marriage. It’s a large part of her contempt for him. She sees the need for physicality as a weakness. 

I am nearly 100% certain of this. The more she pushed him away, don’t hug me, don’t kiss me, the more anxious he got.

And the more anxious a person gets the more inward their focus becomes. And his did. It’s why he never really addressed WHY she was pushing him away. And instead just kept crowding her. 

And - sadly - everyone is now telling him to get a therapist so they can team up on her and tell her that her visceral revulsion to his touch is ‘wrong’, and she needs desensitization therapy of a sorts. 

In over 10,000 posts, I have maybe claimed to be nearly 100% certain two or three times. 

And I want to say that - touch is a normal, healthy, beautiful part of a marriage. It is my personal favorite. Touch, hugs, lying tangled together is my favorite thing. Ok sex is better, but not as long lasting as a three hour tangle. 

The ONLY treatment for a touch averse spouse is quite painful. Most people can’t do it. 

It requires taking the emotional temperature in the house down to zero and waiting. There are only two outcomes if you can outlast your partner. 
- They file for divorce or
- They decide that you are the person they wish to have treat them for hypothermia 

But Nick has no appetite for this. None. And this requires a level of determination that most folks don’t have. 






Blondilocks said:


> "There was no physical affection from her parents growing up. Even now they give her a quick awkward side hug when saying goodbye to her. It’s so sad to me."
> 
> This is a major part of her problem. Physical displays of affection were withheld and your wife grew up in a household where she did not learn the joy of touching another person.
> 
> A therapist can assign exercises to get her accustomed to being comfortable with touching you. She can learn to be physically affectionate with you. A hand on your back or shoulder for a few seconds will not intimidate her and so on. It isn't a lost cause but it will require patience and perseverance.
> 
> As another member mentioned, do not try to initiate any sexual feelings while she is learning. It will take time for her to develop and appreciate her tactile sense with another person.


----------



## MEM2020

Contempt requires more than a little attitude adjustment.




blazer prophet said:


> Nick, I have read the entire thread- but just your posts, so this may be redundant...
> 
> First, I cannot stress enough this conversation should be with John and his wife. My job is dealing with conflict. Literally, all day long it's all I do. I am an advisor to businesspeople. Be polite, firm, short- John and your wife have become too close, it's having a very bad effect on your marriage and it needs to stop. You have spoken with your wife and she gets it and now you seek his respect for your marriage. They don't have to ignore each other, but the quantity and quality of time they spend is the issue.
> 
> Second, while I like you doing the '180' with your wife, don't forsake her. She still needs your love and attention as is due her. She needs to know, however, you are not going to o the "pick me" dance. A suggestion- stay in close touch with her while she is gone. She how she responds.
> 
> She seems to need a little attitude adjustment. I think that can easily be accomplished.


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM2020 said:


> He’s been physically crowding her their entire marriage. It’s a large part of her contempt for him. She sees the need for physicality as a weakness.
> 
> 
> 
> I am nearly 100% certain of this. The more she pushed him away, don’t hug me, don’t kiss me, the more anxious he got.
> 
> 
> 
> And the more anxious a person gets the more inward their focus becomes. And his did. It’s why he never really addressed WHY she was pushing him away. And instead just kept crowding her.
> 
> 
> 
> And - sadly - everyone is now telling him to get a therapist so they can team up on her and tell her that her visceral revulsion to his touch is ‘wrong’, and she needs desensitization therapy of a sorts.
> 
> 
> 
> In over 10,000 posts, I have maybe claimed to be nearly 100% certain two or three times.
> 
> 
> 
> And I want to say that - touch is a normal, healthy, beautiful part of a marriage. It is my personal favorite. Touch, hugs, lying tangled together is my favorite thing. Ok sex is better, but not as long lasting as a three hour tangle.
> 
> 
> 
> The ONLY treatment for a touch averse spouse is quite painful. Most people can’t do it.
> 
> 
> 
> It requires taking the emotional temperature in the house down to zero and waiting. There are only two outcomes if you can outlast your partner.
> 
> - They file for divorce or
> 
> - They decide that you are the person they wish to have treat them for hypothermia
> 
> 
> 
> But Nick has no appetite for this. None. And this requires a level of determination that most folks don’t have.


Quoted for truth.

Most of the time, the frigid partner is so stunned at the script being flipped that it doesn't take long for them to move from shock...to anger...to inquiring what it will take for things to become better again.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## BioFury

MEM2020 said:


> He’s been physically crowding her their entire marriage. It’s a large part of her contempt for him. She sees the need for physicality as a weakness.
> 
> I am nearly 100% certain of this. The more she pushed him away, don’t hug me, don’t kiss me, the more anxious he got.
> 
> And the more anxious a person gets the more inward their focus becomes. And his did. It’s why he never really addressed WHY she was pushing him away. And instead just kept crowding her.
> 
> And - sadly - everyone is now telling him to get a therapist so they can team up on her and tell her that her visceral revulsion to his touch is ‘wrong’, and she needs desensitization therapy of a sorts.
> 
> In over 10,000 posts, I have maybe claimed to be nearly 100% certain two or three times.
> 
> And I want to say that - touch is a normal, healthy, beautiful part of a marriage. It is my personal favorite. Touch, hugs, lying tangled together is my favorite thing. Ok sex is better, but not as long lasting as a three hour tangle.
> 
> The ONLY treatment for a touch averse spouse is quite painful. Most people can’t do it.
> 
> It requires taking the emotional temperature in the house down to zero and waiting. There are only two outcomes if you can outlast your partner.
> - They file for divorce or
> - They decide that you are the person they wish to have treat them for hypothermia
> 
> But Nick has no appetite for this. None. And this requires a level of determination that most folks don’t have.


I think Nick is getting the hang of things. It took him a while, but he's proved himself a doer thus far.

With regard to your post... you may be right, but I don't know what you're recommending. I have a hard time imagining what level of icyness lies below the one his wife is on. She seems content to live in icyness, due to a lack of assertiveness on Nick's part, paired with her upbringing. So how would Nick allowing her to stay comfy on her ice throne fix things?

And, we don't know that she's touch averse in general. Merely that she avoids touch with Nick.


----------



## MEM2020

BioFury,
If Nick was getting the hang of things he’d be on here narrating. I give him credit for his single boundary speech and his non reaction to her crappy initial reaction to it. I give him an A for the past week. 

Trouble is, Nick wants to focus on anything other than himself. His wife tolerates two quick rounds of sex a month in a good year, so an average year is riding the ragged edge of sexless. Won’t kiss him because she dislikes it, and dislikes his non sexual touch. 

And Nick, HAS - NO - IDEA - WHY

And no appetite for finding out. Do I think this situation is unfair to him? You bet I do. I think the physicality is a magical part of a marriage. 

But - very early in our marriage - year one - M2 told me to stop groping her, that she hated it. That comment took maybe 10 seconds. I just dumbly nodded. Totally stopped doing that. Figured out what she liked, by paying attention. Now she loves my touch. Melts into me. 

Years ago when he was on here, I briefly posted on his thread, about how his choice not to address the no kissing, avoidance of non sexual touch - was a huge problem. It clearly still is. 





BioFury said:


> I think Nick is getting the hang of things. It took him a while, but he's proved himself a doer thus far.
> 
> With regard to your post... you may be right, but I don't know what you're recommending. I have a hard time imagining what level of icyness lies below the one his wife is on. She seems content to live in icyness, due to a lack of assertiveness on Nick's part, paired with her upbringing. So how would Nick allowing her to stay comfy on her ice throne fix things?
> 
> And, we don't know that she's touch averse in general. Merely that she avoids touch with Nick.


----------



## BioFury

MEM2020 said:


> BioFury,
> If Nick was getting the hang of things he’d be on here narrating. I give him credit for his single boundary speech and his non reaction to her crappy initial reaction to it. I give him an A for the past week.
> 
> Trouble is, Nick wants to focus on anything other than himself. His wife tolerates two quick rounds of sex a month in a good year, so an average year is riding the ragged edge of sexless. Won’t kiss him because she dislikes it, and dislikes his non sexual touch.
> 
> And Nick, HAS - NO - IDEA - WHY
> 
> And no appetite for finding out. Do I think this situation is unfair to him? You bet I do. I think the physicality is a magical part of a marriage.
> 
> But - very early in our marriage - year one - M2 told me to stop groping her, that she hated it. That comment took maybe 10 seconds. I just dumbly nodded. Totally stopped doing that. Figured out what she liked, by paying attention. Now she loves my touch. Melts into me.
> 
> Years ago when he was on here, I briefly posted on his thread, about how his choice not to address the no kissing, avoidance of non sexual touch - was a huge problem. It clearly still is.


I still have little idea of what you're recommending. You're suggesting he ice her out, but she is comfortable with no kissing, no touching, and no sex. So, in your mind, what exactly would he "shut down", in order to make things so chilly his wife can feel it?


----------



## MEM2020

If Nick wants suggestions he needs to chime in. I’m glad to assist, but he needs to engage. 

The other guy was just the symptom. The underlying condition is a marriage with systemic contempt and physical aversion.





BioFury said:


> I still have little idea of what you're recommending. You're suggesting he ice her out, but she is comfortable with no kissing, no touching, and no sex. So, in your mind, what exactly would he "shut down", in order to make things so chilly his wife can feel it?


----------



## NickTheChemist

MEM2020 said:


> If Nick wants suggestions he needs to chime in. I’m glad to assist, but he needs to engage.
> 
> The other guy was just the symptom. The underlying condition is a marriage with systemic contempt and physical aversion.


I am here and reading everything—many great comments and I am very grateful.

Honestly, guys, I give her physical space—loads of it. She is touch averse to everyone but our sone—friends, family, me.... 

I don’t grope her—unwanted groping is assault whether marred or strangers. 

I have many times stated my need for her non-sexual touch. And sometimes ask so spoon a bit before sleeping. She’ll elbow me off after a few minutes saying I’m too hot. In fairness I am a furnace. 

I would never seek a counselor to “gang up” on my wife or tell her that she’s the problem and has to change. There is a lot that I have done/nit done to bring us to this point and I want to take redo for my part in the state of our marriage. I like my wife. I love her. I want to stay married and work on a or of things between us.

She is open to marriage counseling, but would not like spending the money on the counselor and babysitting for our 3 kiddos every session.... has anyone here tried counseling over Skype?


----------



## MEM2020

Nick,
What do you think is broken in your marriage and what are your goals for therapy?






NickTheChemist said:


> I am here and reading everything—many great comments and I am very grateful.
> 
> Honestly, guys, I give her physical space—loads of it. She is touch averse to everyone but our sone—friends, family, me....
> 
> I don’t grope her—unwanted groping is assault whether marred or strangers.
> 
> I have many times stated my need for her non-sexual touch. And sometimes ask so spoon a bit before sleeping. She’ll elbow me off after a few minutes saying I’m too hot. In fairness I am a furnace.
> 
> I would never seek a counselor to “gang up” on my wife or tell her that she’s the problem and has to change. There is a lot that I have done/nit done to bring us to this point and I want to take redo for my part in the state of our marriage. I like my wife. I love her. I want to stay married and work on a or of things between us.
> 
> She is open to marriage counseling, but would not like spending the money on the counselor and babysitting for our 3 kiddos every session.... has anyone here tried counseling over Skype?


----------



## NickTheChemist

MEM2020 said:


> He’s been physically crowding her their entire marriage. It’s a large part of her contempt for him. She sees the need for physicality as a weakness.
> 
> I am nearly 100% certain of this. The more she pushed him away, don’t hug me, don’t kiss me, the more anxious he got.
> 
> And the more anxious a person gets the more inward their focus becomes. And his did. It’s why he never really addressed WHY she was pushing him away. And instead just kept crowding her.
> 
> And - sadly - everyone is now telling him to get a therapist so they can team up on her and tell her that her visceral revulsion to his touch is ‘wrong’, and she needs desensitization therapy of a sorts.
> 
> In over 10,000 posts, I have maybe claimed to be nearly 100% certain two or three times.
> 
> And I want to say that - touch is a normal, healthy, beautiful part of a marriage. It is my personal favorite. Touch, hugs, lying tangled together is my favorite thing. Ok sex is better, but not as long lasting as a three hour tangle.
> 
> The ONLY treatment for a touch averse spouse is quite painful. Most people can’t do it.
> 
> It requires taking the emotional temperature in the house down to zero and waiting. There are only two outcomes if you can outlast your partner.
> - They file for divorce or
> - They decide that you are the person they wish to have treat them for hypothermia
> 
> But Nick has no appetite for this. None. And this requires a level of determination that most folks don’t have.



Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.

I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.

She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.

Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive


----------



## MEM2020

Nick,
It is easy to misunderstand what I am saying as we haven’t interacted directly much. Just to clarify:
1. I never suggested that you grope your wife. I was merely giving an example of a successful if painful feedback loop that I personally experienced.

2. I am sorry you think I meant you were trying to gang up on your wife. I don’t think that. I thought that others on this thread were pushing you toward therapy and I do think a typical therapist is going to tell your wife that touch is expected and needed in a marriage. And I do think that your wife may feel like the therapist is simply repeating your needs as you have described them.

I absolutely believe you, that you stopped touching her at all including initiating sex for blocks of time with no reaction from her. 

And I am every bit as certain that during the time frame that you stopped ‘physically’ pursuing her, you very much continued emotional pursuit via conversation and compliments and acts of service and sacrifice etc. That is not lowering the temperature at all. That is simply intense emotional pursuit. 

I think your wife will try to say as little as humanly possible in therapy about anything of substance. She will likely find some relatively non core issues to complain about. And will likely say she isn’t a sexual person or an affectionate person or you radiate too much body heat. The body heat thing is true - but it isn’t why she dislikes your touch. 

And without preparation I think you will find your wife wants to just let you talk as much as possible so that she does not have to address the hard stuff. 

Maybe I’m coming across as overly critical. That isn’t my intention at all. 

When M2 and I kiss, during foreplay, after the initial clench we both ask: IMBO?
rhymes with bimbo
Means: Is My Breath Ok

If she says, did you eat something with garlic, we have kiss-less sex. She hates garlic and brushing teeth doesn’t fix it. 
If instead she or I shrug, the other gets up and brushes their teeth again. Normally (90%+) we both say YES, enthusiastically and get back to it. 

Thing is - you have described what I perceive to be a contempt problem. The cold unfriendly way she rejects sex, that is contempt. And by ignoring it, you are hurting the marriage. 

You have a badly broken feedback loop. She refuses to kiss you. You soldier on. She rejects you in a nasty way, the next day you are back to being normal nice Nick. 








NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.
> 
> I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.
> 
> She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.
> 
> Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive


----------



## Andy1001

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.
> 
> I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.
> 
> She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.
> 
> Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive


Good morning Nick. 
I gave you a hard time earlier in this thread because I felt that you weren’t listening to the advice you were being given. Thankfully you have finally acted and made it clear to your wife that you aren’t prepared to accept her behavior with John anymore. 
You need to talk to John and his wife as soon as possible and spell out to both of them that you are having problems in your marriage caused by your wife and John’s “ friendship”. 
Please make sure that your wife isn’t messaging him while she’s on vacation.
As far as the lack of sex is concerned there are better people than me able to advise you about that.


----------



## turnera

NickTheChemist said:


> She is open to marriage counseling, but would not like spending the money on the counselor and babysitting for our 3 kiddos every session.... has anyone here tried counseling over Skype?


If you're going to do that, I suggest you contact Dr. Harley, the author of His Needs Her Needs (and you two should already be reading that book together no matter what). He and his family members do online coaching and they are very very good, and they specialize in fixing marriages.

And when you get up to her folks' place, calmly hold out your hand and ask to see her phone. Then go through it to see if she's been in contact with him or if there are big gaps in time where there should be messages but they have been deleted. You are going to have to address this in stronger terms, I think.


----------



## SunCMars

NickTheChemist said:


> I am here and reading everything—many great comments and I am very grateful.
> 
> Honestly, guys, I give her physical space—loads of it. She is touch averse to everyone but our sone—friends, family, me....
> 
> I don’t grope her—unwanted groping is assault whether marred or strangers.
> 
> I have many times stated my need for her non-sexual touch. And sometimes ask so spoon a bit before sleeping. She’ll elbow me off after a few minutes saying I’m too hot. In fairness I am a furnace.
> 
> I would never seek a counselor to “gang up” on my wife or tell her that she’s the problem and has to change. There is a lot that I have done/nit done to bring us to this point and I want to take redo for my part in the state of our marriage. I like my wife. I love her. I want to stay married and work on a or of things between us.
> 
> She is open to marriage counseling, but would not like spending the money on the counselor and babysitting for our 3 kiddos every session.... has anyone here tried counseling over Skype?


Dr. Phil's website offers this.


----------



## turnera

BioFury said:


> I still have little idea of what you're recommending. You're suggesting he ice her out, but she is comfortable with no kissing, no touching, and no sex. So, in your mind, what exactly would he "shut down", in order to make things so chilly his wife can feel it?


I'll chime in here, as a woman. They aren't communicating. He has no idea what makes her tick anymore, if he ever did. IMO, they, like most couples, just drifted through their marriage, never getting into the weeds of who the other person is, what their dreams are, if they're being met, what turns them on, how they're Love Busting each other, and what could be better. 

It's often said a man will pretend to care to get sex, and a woman will pretend to want the sex she's giving to get the caring.

She latched onto John because he pretended to (or maybe he does) care about her, in ways that OP either never did or lost along the way. Women crave feelings and emotions, often much more than sex. Men feel loved through sex but women only want to give sex when they feel loved first.

So whatever disconnect is going on, he needs to do some really deep thinking - AND communicating with his wife - to figure out what that disconnect is and how to fix it. The book HNHN is a great way to dig down to those items because it covers the psychology behind what women want and what men want, and helps you dissect your own marriage to see what's missing and what's there but doesn't belong (Love Busters).

For example, OP being a milquetoast is a Love Buster to her. She clearly wants a stronger man or she wouldn't have taken to John and his attention and flattery. Once you identify a way you LB your spouse, it's up to you to FIX that, replace it with something healthier and better.

My two cents, anyway.


----------



## SunCMars

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. *She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.
> *
> I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.
> 
> She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.
> 
> Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive


Yes, she does not seem affected. She is, but barely, and will never let YOU know.
Yes, she does notice, does not care.

She is not sexually into you.

The solution is somewhere between counseling and consoling you after divorce, before you find another mate.

I get it, you are loyal to the end, you love her no matter what.

You will be loyal and lonely to the end, no matter what.

Let her go, find yourself, then find another bird to nest with.





[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## Livvie

SunCMars said:


> NickTheChemist said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. *She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.
> *
> I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.
> 
> She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.
> 
> Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, she does not seem affected. She is, but barely, and will never let YOU know.
> Yes, she does notice, does not care.
> 
> She is not sexually into you.
> 
> The solution is somewhere between counseling and consoling you after divorce, before you find another mate.
> 
> I get it, you are loyal to the end, you love her no matter what.
> 
> You will be loyal and lonely to the end, no matter what.
> 
> Let her go, find yourself, then find another bird to nest with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- The Typist I
Click to expand...

I must agree with this. There are some excellent posts with excellent advise here. But sometimes the answer is just... simple. I think she's just not attracted to you, Nick, and that nothing, nothing, nothing is going to change that. And, I'm sorry to say that. I DO know what it's like to be in love with someone who doesn't feel the same way.


----------



## turnera

It's also possible that she just did what so many women do - substitute the kids for her husband. In terms of attention and affection, I mean. When you marry a guy, you're getting something from it - attention, love, touch, reputation...and you can get the same thing from your kids.

Many, if not most, people marry not realizing that you have to kindle the fire in the marriage even THOUGH you have kids, that you have to put work into keeping the desire alive. It's hard to teach women like that that it's a necessity, though. Usually we don't change our comfort zone unless some potential consequence will be more painful. She may have to realize that she can lose him, the 'family,' the money...before she wakes up to what her role is in all this.


----------



## MyRevelation

Predictable ... blame the victim, especially the BH’s.

... and for God’s sake stay away from Marriage Builders and the Harley Industrial Reconciliation Complex.

It’s much more likely that OP just chose poorly and is in a mid-matched M. Best to find a fully engaged and equal partner.


----------



## personofinterest

MyRevelation said:


> Predictable ... blame the victim, especially the BH’s.
> 
> ... and for God’s sake stay away from Marriage Builders and the Harley Industrial Reconciliation Complex.
> 
> It’s much more likely that OP just chose poorly and is in a mid-matched M. Best to find a fully engaged and equal partner.


Market this down. I completely agree with EVERY WORD


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera,
Does HNHN address smothering behavior? Just asking as I know the basics of the book but haven’t read it.

In terms of interpersonal chemistry, smothering produces contempt the same as adding H2 and oxygen produces water. 

If Nick provided any more than a tiny snippet of their dynamic, I bet we would see that he engages in a LOT of approval seeking behaviors. This is all part of the same underlying issue that exists in a pursuer - distancer relationship.

A broken feedback loop. The pursuer hugs (physically or emotionally), the distancer pushes them away with increasing urgency and rinse repeat. 

If Nick wants to prove he is now on the shining path forward he need but do one thing. Only one. 

It’s a simple question that will give him a clear picture of where he stands with wife. And it is not a question she can really duck. 

And if he returns to this thread and requests it, I will gladly share it with him. And it needs to be asked before therapy so he can decide what his goals for therapy are. 






turnera said:


> If you're going to do that, I suggest you contact Dr. Harley, the author of His Needs Her Needs (and you two should already be reading that book together no matter what). He and his family members do online coaching and they are very very good, and they specialize in fixing marriages.
> 
> And when you get up to her folks' place, calmly hold out your hand and ask to see her phone. Then go through it to see if she's been in contact with him or if there are big gaps in time where there should be messages but they have been deleted. You are going to have to address this in stronger terms, I think.


----------



## MEM2020

Her bond with John wasn’t his flattery. It was his open pursuit of her in front of her husband. 
John is fearless, or seems so to her. 





turnera said:


> I'll chime in here, as a woman. They aren't communicating. He has no idea what makes her tick anymore, if he ever did. IMO, they, like most couples, just drifted through their marriage, never getting into the weeds of who the other person is, what their dreams are, if they're being met, what turns them on, how they're Love Busting each other, and what could be better.
> 
> It's often said a man will pretend to care to get sex, and a woman will pretend to want the sex she's giving to get the caring.
> 
> She latched onto John because he pretended to (or maybe he does) care about her, in ways that OP either never did or lost along the way. Women crave feelings and emotions, often much more than sex. Men feel loved through sex but women only want to give sex when they feel loved first.
> 
> So whatever disconnect is going on, he needs to do some really deep thinking - AND communicating with his wife - to figure out what that disconnect is and how to fix it. The book HNHN is a great way to dig down to those items because it covers the psychology behind what women want and what men want, and helps you dissect your own marriage to see what's missing and what's there but doesn't belong (Love Busters).
> 
> For example, OP being a milquetoast is a Love Buster to her. She clearly wants a stronger man or she wouldn't have taken to John and his attention and flattery. Once you identify a way you LB your spouse, it's up to you to FIX that, replace it with something healthier and better.
> 
> My two cents, anyway.


----------



## farsidejunky

BioFury said:


> I still have little idea of what you're recommending. You're suggesting he ice her out, but she is comfortable with no kissing, no touching, and no sex. So, in your mind, what exactly would he "shut down", in order to make things so chilly his wife can feel it?


Stop all acts of service.

Stop initiating conversation in any form unless it is something mechanical or necessary (house, children, etc.).

Stop touching her. 

Stop having sex with her the moment she looks bored or disinterested...and tell her why. "No thanks. I really only want sex with someone who actually wants to have sex with me."

Stop listening to her vent about her day. "Sorry, but I don't really feel like listening tonight."

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

MEM2020 said:


> Turnera,
> Does HNHN address smothering behavior? Just asking as I know the basics of the book but haven’t read it.


It would classify it as a Love Buster. In it, there are two important factors in a marriage: whether you are meeting each others' Emotional Needs and whether you are Love Busting each other. Each person has basic, most important ENs. For men, it's usually sex, fun, and admiration (YMMV); for women, it's usually stability, emotional connection, and honesty (YMMV). 

These needs can change, based on your situation. For example I have a 40-year history of a husband who lets our house fall apart, AND I come from a FOO in which OUR house fell apart, literally, and I grew up with severe shame about it. So you can imagine the level of stress I feel day in and day out. Having a well-maintained home that I'm not ashamed of has become my #1 EN. But it's also his #1 Love Buster in my eyes.

So HNHN gives you worksheets to fill out to learn your and your spouse's top ENs. Once you know those, you're supposed to ensure that you are the only person meeting those most important needs. Because if you don't - as Nick has seen - someone else WILL.

Now, Love Busters are the things you do that make your spouse unhappy. Once you learn what you're doing to LB your spouse, you should be working hard to remove those actions so that when they look at you, they don't see and feel disappointment. As you can imagine, my DH not fixing things is a HUGE LB for me; it taints everything about our relationship because he KNOWS how important these things are, yet chooses not to address it. So, no, I'm in no way interested in having sex with the one person who won't stop hurting me.

For instance, we have a leak somewhere in our outer wall by the kitchen. For the past two months (we can't afford to bring in a plumber cos he got laid off and we're so in debt). He went in the attic to find where it is but couldn't; turns out it's in the wall - I know this because we're now growing mold on that wall, in the kitchen. So his solution has been to just turn the water off coming into the house. We turn it on for a couple hours a day, just to flush toilets and fill the dogs' water bowl and wash dishes or a load of laundry, then turn it back off. Every day that goes by, I'm this.much less interested in being here, from the LB that is my husband not providing a functional home.

I'm not saying Nick's situation is anything that dramatic. But learning how you're harming your spouse and removing that is a huge step in getting the marriage (and sex) Nick wants. In his case, I'll bet that being a weak man (non-aggressive, doesn't push for what he wants) is an LB for her and the longer it goes on, the less love she feels for him. Just like her not wanting sex is a huge LB for him. Realize though that she probably isn't even aware of this; it's just something she feels. Most people don't get down into those sorts of weeds.

There's that communication thing again - if they don't KNOW these things, they can't fix them. I recommend that people in decent marriages fill out those LB and EN questionnaires every few years (since things change), just as a refresher to ensure you're both on the same page and keep things rolling.


----------



## TRy

NickTheChemist said:


> I have many times stated my need for her non-sexual touch.


There is a big difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. I love my children, but I am not in love with any of them. Right now your wife loves you, but is not in love with you. Since you love your wife and are also in love with her, there is a large imbalance that will be difficult to sustain long term before your growing resentment will probably result in ending your marriage.

Way before I found this site, intimacy wise I was in much the same place as you are now. I told my wife that although I loved her and was still in love with her, I cannot imagine still being married to her years from now if things between us did not change. She was shocked, and when she asked me if I was divorcing her, I told her that I was not currently considering divorce, since I could not even imagine life without her. But I also told her that if things do not change long term regarding sex and non-sexual physical intimacy, that one day I will wake up and be done. That when this happens, I will feel so much resentment toward her that it will be too late by then to try to fix things between us.

She kept telling me that she deeply loved me, but noticeably did not tell me that she was in love with me; I guess that she did not want to lie. When she asked me what she can do to fix things, I told her that although I will do my part, she needed to take responsibility for figuring that answer out. If I needed to make changes, she needed to tell me. That if her first ideas do not work, no problem just try something else. I told that there was no hurry for us to see results, but that there was a hurry to see her making the effort. After much time and effort we became a romantic couple again, with my wife now needing the improved intimacy as much as me. BTW for us, improved non-sexual touching led to improved sexual touching and sex.


----------



## MEM2020

Turnera,
I think that terms have to be used very carefully. The trouble here is neediness that is so deep rooted, that it drowns out perception of normal partner feedback.

And insecurities that prevent the normal healthy conversation that accompanies those feedback loops. 

Instead the anxiety drives a lot of clingy behavior that causes a claustrophobic reaction. Intense touch aversion is a type of emotional claustrophobia. 

I maybe have two specialties, and this specific dynamic is one of them. 

And if it was M2, and all our BIG problems could be described in maybe 100 words or less, she would not react well to reading a whole book. 





turnera said:


> It would classify it as a Love Buster. In it, there are two important factors in a marriage: whether you are meeting each others' Emotional Needs and whether you are Love Busting each other. Each person has basic, most important ENs. For men, it's usually sex, fun, and admiration (YMMV); for women, it's usually stability, emotional connection, and honesty (YMMV).
> 
> These needs can change, based on your situation. For example I have a 40-year history of a husband who lets our house fall apart, AND I come from a FOO in which OUR house fell apart, literally, and I grew up with severe shame about it. So you can imagine the level of stress I feel day in and day out. Having a well-maintained home that I'm not ashamed of has become my #1 EN. But it's also his #1 Love Buster in my eyes.
> 
> So HNHN gives you worksheets to fill out to learn your and your spouse's top ENs. Once you know those, you're supposed to ensure that you are the only person meeting those most important needs. Because if you don't - as Nick has seen - someone else WILL.
> 
> Now, Love Busters are the things you do that make your spouse unhappy. Once you learn what you're doing to LB your spouse, you should be working hard to remove those actions so that when they look at you, they don't see and feel disappointment. As you can imagine, my DH not fixing things is a HUGE LB for me; it taints everything about our relationship because he KNOWS how important these things are, yet chooses not to address it. So, no, I'm in no way interested in having sex with the one person who won't stop hurting me.
> 
> For instance, we have a leak somewhere in our outer wall by the kitchen. For the past two months (we can't afford to bring in a plumber cos he got laid off and we're so in debt). He went in the attic to find where it is but couldn't; turns out it's in the wall - I know this because we're now growing mold on that wall, in the kitchen. So his solution has been to just turn the water off coming into the house. We turn it on for a couple hours a day, just to flush toilets and fill the dogs' water bowl and wash dishes or a load of laundry, then turn it back off. Every day that goes by, I'm this.much less interested in being here, from the LB that is my husband not providing a functional home.
> 
> I'm not saying Nick's situation is anything that dramatic. But learning how you're harming your spouse and removing that is a huge step in getting the marriage (and sex) Nick wants. In his case, I'll bet that being a weak man (non-aggressive, doesn't push for what he wants) is an LB for her and the longer it goes on, the less love she feels for him. Just like her not wanting sex is a huge LB for him. Realize though that she probably isn't even aware of this; it's just something she feels. Most people don't get down into those sorts of weeds.
> 
> There's that communication thing again - if they don't KNOW these things, they can't fix them. I recommend that people in decent marriages fill out those LB and EN questionnaires every few years (since things change), just as a refresher to ensure you're both on the same page and keep things rolling.


----------



## MEM2020

I’ve not seen people do this without first confirming how close their partners esteem for them is to zero. 

Once they recognize that the thin thread holding the marriage together is financial comfort, only then can they do this.

And the required question, all 9 words of it, provides a razor sharp image of their partners viewpoint. 




farsidejunky said:


> Stop all acts of service.
> 
> Stop initiating conversation in any form unless it is something mechanical or necessary (house, children, etc.).
> 
> Stop touching her.
> 
> Stop having sex with her the moment she looks bored or disinterested...and tell her why. "No thanks. I really only want sex with someone who actually wants to have sex with me."
> 
> Stop listening to her vent about her day. "Sorry, but I don't really feel like listening tonight."
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## turnera

> Turnera,
> I think that terms have to be used very carefully. The trouble here is neediness that is so deep rooted, that it drowns out perception of normal partner feedback.
> 
> And insecurities that prevent the normal healthy conversation that accompanies those feedback loops.


I agree. Nick should first be addressing his own insecurities for they are surely leading to a lot of their issues. He says he's changing, but I don't see much. And you can't just turn off being a Nice Guy just cos you say you will. You have to address lifelong belief patterns, low self esteem, shame, FOO, etc., and you have to walk the walk every single day until your thought processes change. Again, not seeing so much of that.


----------



## BioFury

MEM2020 said:


> And I am every bit as certain that during the time frame that you stopped ‘physically’ pursuing her, you very much continued emotional pursuit via conversation and compliments and acts of service and sacrifice etc. That is not lowering the temperature at all. That is simply intense emotional pursuit.
> 
> I think your wife will try to say as little as humanly possible in therapy about anything of substance. She will likely find some relatively non core issues to complain about. And will likely say she isn’t a sexual person or an affectionate person or you radiate too much body heat. The body heat thing is true - but it isn’t why she dislikes your touch.
> 
> And without preparation I think you will find your wife wants to just let you talk as much as possible so that she does not have to address the hard stuff.
> 
> Maybe I’m coming across as overly critical. That isn’t my intention at all.
> 
> Thing is - you have described what I perceive to be a contempt problem. The cold unfriendly way she rejects sex, that is contempt. And by ignoring it, you are hurting the marriage.
> 
> You have a badly broken feedback loop. She refuses to kiss you. You soldier on. She rejects you in a nasty way, the next day you are back to being normal nice Nick.


Alright, I'm following now, and I agree. Though I am conflicted about which road Nick should walk down.

If his wife is dealing with childhood issues, then I don't think icing her out will help very much, and counseling would be in order.

If the issue is exclusively that his wife holds him in contempt, then I would say your "ice box" plan would be the ticket.

The conundrum, is that I think the problem is a combination of both.



turnera said:


> And when you get up to her folks' place, calmly hold out your hand and ask to see her phone. Then go through it to see if she's been in contact with him or if there are big gaps in time where there should be messages but they have been deleted. You are going to have to address this in stronger terms, I think.


I'm not so sure about the demanding to see her phone thing. I agree there needs to be transparency, and that he needs to check whether she's been in contact with John during her stay away from home, but don't think holding out his hand for her phone is the way to do it.

But maybe I'm wrong. It just seems off.



turnera said:


> I'll chime in here, as a woman. They aren't communicating. He has no idea what makes her tick anymore, if he ever did. IMO, they, like most couples, just drifted through their marriage, never getting into the weeds of who the other person is, what their dreams are, if they're being met, what turns them on, how they're Love Busting each other, and what could be better.
> 
> It's often said a man will pretend to care to get sex, and a woman will pretend to want the sex she's giving to get the caring.
> 
> She latched onto John because he pretended to (or maybe he does) care about her, in ways that OP either never did or lost along the way. Women crave feelings and emotions, often much more than sex. Men feel loved through sex but women only want to give sex when they feel loved first.
> 
> So whatever disconnect is going on, he needs to do some really deep thinking - AND communicating with his wife - to figure out what that disconnect is and how to fix it. The book HNHN is a great way to dig down to those items because it covers the psychology behind what women want and what men want, and helps you dissect your own marriage to see what's missing and what's there but doesn't belong (Love Busters).
> 
> For example, OP being a milquetoast is a Love Buster to her. She clearly wants a stronger man or she wouldn't have taken to John and his attention and flattery. Once you identify a way you LB your spouse, it's up to you to FIX that, replace it with something healthier and better.
> 
> My two cents, anyway.


I would agree, except I'm getting the sense that his wife isn't open to communication. So how can he get her to become receptive, and making herself emotionally vulnerable to him?


----------



## TRy

MEM2020 said:


> I’ve not seen people do this without first confirming how close their partners esteem for them is to zero.
> 
> Once they recognize that the thin thread holding the marriage together is financial comfort, only then can they do this.


The OP already knows that his “partner’s esteem” for him is near zero, and that there is a “thin thread holding the marriage together”. This is why the OP is so insecure and has been afraid to act in the first place. Real change will only happen when he accepts without fear the fact that long term his marriage is coming to an end, and explains this fact to his wife. 

She will either step up to the plate, or she won’t. If not, he needs to know that somewhere out there is someone that wants to be married to a nice guy like him, that would wake up everyday thanking God that she was lucky enough to have found him in her life. Right now that person is not his wife. That can possibly change, but unless it does, he needs to be ready to accept nothing less.


----------



## turnera

BioFury said:


> If his wife is dealing with childhood issues, then I don't think icing her out will help very much, and counseling would be in order.
> 
> I'm not so sure about the demanding to see her phone thing. I agree there needs to be transparency, and that he needs to check whether she's been in contact with John during her stay away from home, but don't think holding out his hand for her phone is the way to do it.
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong. It just seems off.


Nick supposedly had a confrontation with her about John and she agreed. She agreed because he finally showed some backbone. For him to now just blithely assume she has stopped just shows more fear on his part. She WANTS him to expect her compliance; any sane woman would want to know (and even appreciate) that her husband doesn't want to share her. So IMO, asking to see the phone is just an extenuation of the agreement they made. He doesn't have to be a jerk about it (that's a Nice Guy assumption). "Let me see. I want to see if this is going to work out between us."



> I would agree, except I'm getting the sense that his wife isn't open to communication. So how can he get her to become receptive, and making herself emotionally vulnerable to him?


It won't happen overnight. And it won't happen at all if Nick doesn't get rid of his Nice Guy tendencies. Women desire strong men - physically, emotionally. He has to know his worth (and not his looks and pocketbook, as he likes to wave around at us) - his worth as a great guy, funny, fun-loving, protector, family supporter, emotionally secure. Once he starts working on THAT, she'll notice. Icing her out at this stage is just an act, and a pathetic one. Icing her out if she acts like a witch and he deserves better is a strong reaction and one she'll notice. 

IF he goes down that path and learns to value himself (and not his money or looks), it'll show. In everything he does. She'll notice it, her family will notice it, the neighbors will notice it...and she'll notice all of them noticing it. And her desire to keep him will grow. Once that happens, then he can start the discussions about communication and vulnerability. But if he does it now when he's still weak, it'll just look pathetic (no offense, Nick).

It has to come from a position of strength on his part; strength and the knowledge that he doesn't NEED this marriage. So far all he has done is tell her to stop contacting John. Let's wait and see what else he does.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TRy said:


> There is a big difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. I love my children, but I am not in love with any of them. Right now your wife loves you, but is not in love with you. Since you love your wife and are also in love with her, there is a large imbalance that will be difficult to sustain long term before your growing resentment will probably result in ending your marriage.
> 
> Way before I found this site, intimacy wise I was in much the same place as you are now. I told my wife that although I loved her and was still in love with her, I cannot imagine still being married to her years from now if things between us did not change. She was shocked, and when she asked me if I was divorcing her, I told her that I was not currently considering divorce, since I could not even imagine life without her. But I also told her that if things do not change long term regarding sex and non-sexual physical intimacy, that one day I will wake up and be done. That when this happens, I will feel so much resentment toward her that it will be too late by then to try to fix things between us.
> 
> She kept telling me that she deeply loved me, but noticeably did not tell me that she was in love with me; I guess that she did not want to lie. When she asked me what she can do to fix things, I told her that although I will do my part, she needed to take responsibility for figuring that answer out. If I needed to make changes, she needed to tell me. That if her first ideas do not work, no problem just try something else. I told that there was no hurry for us to see results, but that there was a hurry to see her making the effort. After much time and effort we became a romantic couple again, with my wife now needing the improved intimacy as much as me. BTW for us, improved non-sexual touching led to improved sexual touching and sex.


Nick, this is the post I was trying to lead up to. Notice, he doesn't blame her and he doesn't blame himself. He gave her an ultimate consequence, but said there is still time to fix it and EFFORT is more important than immediate results.

See, your earlier post above is why I said be wary of self blame and putting it all on yourself. You know all of her intimacy problems, personality problems and other issues. You have CATERED to her wants while ignoring your own. Now, it has led to a huge problem. Guessing is not good, she need to communicate. Also, don't cater, you are trying Address marriage problems and all I see is excuses.

I raised four kids, when something is this important you figure it out. Sorry, SKYPE is to easy for her to find something else to do.


----------



## MEM2020

Bio,
There is a 9 word question that acts like a halogen spotlight on your marriage. It highlights your situation in a mutually comprehensible manner. It is the first step toward both spouses seeing and accepting the truth of their situation. 

Yes it might be the first step to dissolution, but an honest and sincere dissolution. Status quo cannot be good for the kids in terms of modeling interaction.

Clearly he’s a good provider, so that is good for the kids. But the mommy-daddy routine, is quite a bad example. 





BioFury said:


> Alright, I'm following now, and I agree. Though I am conflicted about which road Nick should walk down.
> 
> If his wife is dealing with childhood issues, then I don't think icing her out will help very much, and counseling would be in order.
> 
> If the issue is exclusively that his wife holds him in contempt, then I would say your "ice box" plan would be the ticket.
> 
> The conundrum, is that I think the problem is a combination of both.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure about the demanding to see her phone thing. I agree there needs to be transparency, and that he needs to check whether she's been in contact with John during her stay away from home, but don't think holding out his hand for her phone is the way to do it.
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong. It just seems off.
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree, except I'm getting the sense that his wife isn't open to communication. So how can he get her to become receptive, and making herself emotionally vulnerable to him?


----------



## TRy

In one post you state:


MEM2020 said:


> And the required question, all 9 words of it, provides a razor sharp image of their partners viewpoint.


In your next post you state:


MEM2020 said:


> Bio,
> There is a 9 word question that acts like a halogen spotlight on your marriage.


In neither case do you tell us what those “9 words” are, LOL. OK, I will take the bait. What are the “9 words”?


----------



## MEM2020

Try,

If Nick chooses to engage on his thread, I will gladly post it. If he does not I will PM it to you in a week on condition that you not post it here without his engagement. 

However, I will add - if a week from now - you ask that I send you the question, after I do and you read it, you are welcome to comment here on whether or not you agree that it is useful. 

And fwiw - this is an etiquette thing. If Nick wants real help he can engage. And if not, that’s ok. It’s his life. 

And for the avoidance of doubt, he strikes me as a very honest person, despite being hard to help. Everything he says and does is very consistent. 




TRy said:


> In one post you state:
> 
> In your next post you state:
> 
> 
> In neither case do you tell us what those “9 words” are, LOL. OK, I will take the bait. What are the “9 words”?


----------



## MEM2020

And that offer is open to anyone who asks. I will send you the question and you may comment on it’s usefulness, you just can’t quote it here. 




TRy said:


> In one post you state:
> 
> In your next post you state:
> 
> 
> In neither case do you tell us what those “9 words” are, LOL. OK, I will take the bait. What are the “9 words”?


----------



## TRy

MEM2020 said:


> Try,
> 
> If Nick chooses to engage on his thread, I will gladly post it. If he does not I will PM it to you in a week on condition that you not post it here without his engagement.
> 
> However, I will add - if a week from now - you ask that I send you the question, after I do and you read it, you are welcome to comment here on whether or not you agree that it is useful.


Agreed, and I ask now that you send it in a week.


----------



## MEM2020

Will gladly do so. 




TRy said:


> Agreed, and I ask now that you send it in a week.


----------



## Adelais

I too would like to know the 9 word question and agree to not repeat it here.


----------



## MEM2020

Sure thing 




Araucaria said:


> I too would like to know the 9 word question and agree to not repeat it here.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

In for 9 words in a week....


----------



## MEM2020

Sure thing



ET1SSJonota said:


> In for 9 words in a week....


----------



## Cynthia

MEM2020 said:


> And that offer is open to anyone who asks. I will send you the question and you may comment on it’s usefulness, you just can’t quote it here.


I am curious about these 9 words. Please send them to me.


----------



## BioFury

MEM2020 said:


> Will gladly do so.


Meeee too! :grin2:


----------



## Livvie

I too would please like to know the question. I wonder if it would have helped before my marriage ended!


----------



## MEM2020

Cynthia,

Glad to do so. 




CynthiaDe said:


> I am curious about these 9 words. Please send them to me.


----------



## MEM2020

Sure thing BioFury.



BioFury said:


> Meeee too! :grin2:


----------



## MEM2020

Livvie,

Sure thing. 




Livvie said:


> I too would please like to know the question. I wonder if it would have helped before my marriage ended!


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@MEM2020
One more if you don't mind.


----------



## ABHale

NickTheChemist said:


> Thank you for your time and interest. I believe I have tried this already. I’ve gone months without initiating sex or even suggesting/speaking of it. I’ve also gone weeks without initiating touch at all. Zero. She seems to be unaffected. Honestly. She’s her normal self and doesn’t seem to notice.
> 
> I think it’s a deep emotional thing rooted in fear and tied to family of origin.
> 
> She is sexual. I don’t believe there is any physiological problem, but rather physiological and emotional/relational obstacles that overwhelm snd subdue her desire.
> 
> Also, I have been a pushover far too long in our marriage and I agree that most women find that unattractive


If she has always been this cold and adverse to physical touch, why did you marry her to begin with?

You knew you needed this.


----------



## ABHale

It just sounds like your wife is just in the marriage. 

It doesn’t sound like she cares for you at all Nick. She sees you as a good husband and provider but that is it. 

You need some ID counseling and so does your wife. Then some marriage counseling. This might help with her seeing it as an attack on her.


----------



## MEM2020

Sure



Rubix Cubed said:


> @MEM2020
> One more if you don't mind.


----------



## 269370

A 9-word question that changes everything. Shall we play a game to see if we can guess it? 

“Where have you left neighbour’s keys and my shotgun?” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TRy

InMyPrime said:


> A 9-word question that changes everything. Shall we play a game to see if we can guess it?


As I wait the week for the official answer, my guess of a 9 word question that changes everything would be “What would marriage look like if it were easy?”


----------



## Nucking Futs

Any chance we can take this nine word question thread jack to pm?


----------



## Cynthia

Here is a link to a thread for discussion of the 9 word question: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/434159-9-word-question-changes-everything.html


----------



## SunCMars

Is she, marriage to her, worth it, long term?
..........................................................................

Some nine words, mine!

Boom!




[THM]- THRD


----------



## Blondilocks

I'm sorry your thread devolved into a carnival side-show.


----------



## BioFury

@NickTheChemist Update?


----------



## BioFury

.


----------



## syhoybenden

Nick?

It's been 5 days. Don't go MIA. You're not out of the woods yet.


----------



## Ursula

Livvie said:


> I too would please like to know the question. I wonder if it would have helped before my marriage ended!


Could I also be added to the group of people requesting the 9-word question? I'm also curious to know if it could have helped before my marriage ended.


----------



## ConanHub

CynthiaDe said:


> Here is a link to a thread for discussion of the 9 word question: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/434159-9-word-question-changes-everything.html





Ursula said:


> Could I also be added to the group of people requesting the 9-word question? I'm also curious to know if it could have helped before my marriage ended.


Here you go. Cynthia was ahead of the game!:wink2:


----------



## SunCMars

Nick will be back when their shared marital chemistry, that beaker boils, their toxic flammable fumes roll over the glassy edge.

When his loving, futile choices, his words explode.

He will be back when he has better and certain words to offer, those that matter, that flutter in TAM's breeze, never will they flatter his wife.

She is a 'bad girl'.

Tsk..





[THM]- The Typist I and Lilith playing the violin.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

A nine word question?

Do SOs ever get a hall pass now and then?


Not me, just tongue in cheek.


----------



## Ursula

ConanHub said:


> Here you go. Cynthia was ahead of the game!:wink2:


Thanks for posting that; I saw that earlier, but was really hoping to bypass reading 34 posts! I guess I'll have to wait to find out, slog through them all, or forever be in the dark.


----------



## syhoybenden

Please everyone take the thread-jack to https://talkaboutmarriage.com/social-spot/434159-9-word-question-changes-everything.html


----------



## PreRaph

Reading through this entire thread, I really have to ask the OP:

Your wife doesn't want to initiate any sexual contact with you, doesn't want to touch you, elbows you away in bed, and shows no desire for you whatsoever. Why in the world do you want to remain in this marriage??

Despite your changed attitude, which is ok, realize that you will probably never regain your respect and self-esteem in this marriage. A little bit of spine isn't going to suddenly turn her around and make her see you as the man she always wanted. I sincerely doubt that will happen. She's not going to change, and her disrespect for you may be taking a back seat now, but it hasn't gone away.

I hate to be harsh and I hate to be pessimistic, but I would seriously advise you sit down with yourself and consider ending this marriage. 

She just doesn't love you.


----------



## PreRaph

Oh and another thing: she offered to sell the house and move away as a ploy. She went to the extreme as a dare. She she threw it out there knowing you wouldn't go that far. I wonder how she would have reacted if you had said yes we have to move away from here. . .


----------



## NickTheChemist

Hey everyone, 

I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.

Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback. 

Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark. 

Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.

Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage. 

Advice?


----------



## Livvie

Yes. Why don't you and your wife agree to just disengage from this couple and not have any future contact?


----------



## Marc878

Did you ever have a talk with John about staying away from your home?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Hell you’ve made zero progress. She found a loophole by chumming with the wife. Indirect direct contact. 

These people need to go and you need to get up off the floor. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Marc878

^^^^ yep, she's probably doing this to spend more time with John.

She has zero respect for you at all.

Why? Answer that and fix it or continue to wallow.


----------



## Lostinthought61

start working out with her


----------



## ConanHub

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


So you say you aren't comfortable with her relationship with John and you don't want her around him and now she is around him a lot.......


Isn't she just basically giving you the finger, saying **** you and being around him anyway?


----------



## BioFury

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


If it makes you uncomfortable, then it stops. That's the rule you need to go by. Self-respect 101.

I would tell her that what's happening is making you uncomfortable, and that they can either move this butt-sculpting camp away from John, and out of his house, or it can stop. 

You need to make it clear to her that she is not to interact with John at all, ever, unless you are also in company.

*ETA:* And what do you mean by sex got better because a friend of your wife's wasn't getting laid?


----------



## Marduk

Time to put the shoe on the other foot. Do what she does. 

I suspect you’ll inspire a far more interesting response from her than trying to set boundaries that she obviously doesn’t care about, because she gets everything she wants, and the only problem for her is that you complain about it. 

Go out. Make friends with people. Innocently. Don’t say what you’re doing or who you’re doing it with. Be gone a lot. Make it known that you’re only doing what she is doing. Don’t make excuses. Don’t be reasonable. If she has a problem, just say “I’m only doing what you’re doing.”

Years ago, when my wife started going out all the time, going away on girls trips, etc... heartfelt concerns did nothing. Pleas did nothing. Setting boundaries did nothing. Ultimatums pushed her away. 

3 weeks of doing what she did, and it all ended with a conversation about reasonableness. 3 weeks. 

It’s about power, and it’s about incentive. If she has all the power and all the incentive to continue, she has no reason to change no matter how much you beg her to. 

Tit for tat. Goose and gander.


----------



## sokillme

Toxic people make for toxic lives. Life is too short. Maybe there is a women out there who wants to be with you, whom you won't have to police all the time. Who wants to have a consistent physical relationship.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


Read the thread again and then listen to all of the people who warned you. You were told to cutoff all contact and now your radar is going off again.

It’s funny because I’m reading the same advice, from different posters, that you have previously received.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nick:

What will it take for you to hear?

Not listen...but actually receive, process, and HEAR the advice you are being given?

Thus far you have worked harder to avoid than actually implement the advice you have received. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## skerzoid

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


Time for another talk.


----------



## BioFury

farsidejunky said:


> Nick:
> 
> What will it take for you to hear?
> 
> Not listen...but actually receive, process, and HEAR the advice you are being given?
> 
> Thus far you have worked harder to avoid than actually implement the advice you have received.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I think he is listening, it's just that being assertive and confrontational isn't in his nature.

Just as one might have to constantly remind a messy person to keep their work space tidy, we are reminding Nick to surge out of his comfort zone for the sake of his marriage.


----------



## bandit.45

Sheezus freakin keeerist!

Just read this trainwreck of a thread. Thats an hour of my life gone.


----------



## manwithnoname

Lostinthought61 said:


> start working out with her


This won't work because she wants John, not Nick.


----------



## lucy999

Where is this "progress" you speak of? The 1 month of amped up sex? You call breadcrumb sex progress? I call it pitiful.

Either John, your wife, and his wife are into threesomes, or John and your wife are hooking up right under his wife's nose.

The advice is already here in this long thread. You don't need anymore. It'll only be duplicative.


----------



## Betrayedone

He won't be back......


----------



## bandit.45

Nick if you are still reading, this is what is going on with your conniving WW: 

You stood up to her and put the kabosh on direct contact with asshat. She feigned appeasement for enough time to get you off her back. Now that you have returned to net-zero she has very craftily outmaneuvered you. The straight run down the middle was no longer working so now she running the sweep play to the outside to gain yardage. The working out with the OM's wife is her plan to keep her friend (OM) close and her enemy (OMW) closer. If you cannot see this, you are beyond our help. 

If you do see this, you need to have a sit down with OMW and tell her what you think is going on between her POS husband and your WW.

I guarantee you your WW and the OM have taken the affair underground. They are communicating somehow. You need to find out how. 

Wake up man. Your wife is an a-hole... plain and simple. A mean, selfish a-hole. There... I said it twice.


----------



## MrMystified

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


Apologies, but your wife has no respect for you. You need to respect yourself and insist she end all contact with OM and OM’s wife.


----------



## jsmart

Nick, 30 pages and you still have not confronted this POS? I'm with @bandit.45 in that it's very likely they have the affair underground. If I'm wrong, then this couple needs to become distant acquaintances because they're damaging your marriage.

You fell for what so many BHs fall for, allow the wife to lull you to sleep with sex. Now she's backing off and back to flaunting herself to OM. Who knows if the OM's wife doesn't care or willfully looks the other way while her husband gets some.


----------



## Prodigal

Betrayedone said:


> He won't be back......


I'm not so sure about that. He pops up every couple of years. Now that his wife has not only crapped on him but also rubbed his face in it, I would guess he'll go dark again. At least until he can't stand it and posts the SOS in a year or so.

This sounds so over the top to me, that I question its authenticity. But apparently there are men and women out there who will tolerate ANYTHING just so they can have a warm body they consider a "partner." Sad, but true.


----------



## BioFury

Guys, could we be a bit more respectful? Nick doesn't deserve your snarky, and downright rude, comments. He's making an effort. Let's encourage him to do better, not throw tomatoes.


----------



## Prodigal

@BioFury, if you don't like the responses, please put the responder(s) on ignore or notify a moderator. Thank you.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

BioFury said:


> Guys, could we be a bit more respectful? Nick doesn't deserve your snarky, and downright rude, comments. He's making an effort. Let's encourage him to do better, not throw tomatoes.


Context.

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/377769-trying-connect-my-wife.html
He is closing in on year number 3 on this website. Post 41, by FSJ, from this thread two years ago was prophetic.

https://talkaboutmarriage.com/gener.../428705-emotional-sexual-pursuer-husband.html
Read the entire thread it starts off weird.


----------



## BioFury

Prodigal said:


> @BioFury, if you don't like the responses, please put the responder(s) on ignore or notify a moderator. Thank you.


I came close to calling you a bad name, but self control prevailed! 0 In response to your snide comment:

This isn't about me. The goal of this thread is to help Nick, and making rude remarks about him does not contribute to that purpose. Thank you, and have a nice day.


----------



## MyRevelation

BioFury said:


> Nick doesn't deserve your snarky, and downright rude, comments. He's making an effort.


Yes, he does, because No, he’s not!!!

Coddling and enabling his inaction isn’t working.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MyRevelation said:


> Yes, he does, because No, he’s not!!!
> 
> Coddling and enabling his inaction isn’t working.


He is in the same place he was in 2017. FSJ called it.


----------



## SunCMars

This thread has been analyzed to death.

Some very good advice has been offered, little of it followed through by Nick.

I am very sure that John and Nick's wife have been intimate, god knows how many times.

Nick's wife just wants him to come home, do his husband duties and keep quiet.

This whole spiel of her not enjoying intimacy or touching is nonsense. She and John have been going at it heavy for some time.

She does not want/enjoy sex from her husband.....only.

Nick, early-on, missed his chances of catching John and her in the act with hidden cameras and VAR's, (with them being in his house).


----------



## SunCMars

Nick....

Now is the time to go out of town for two weeks.

Before going out of town, install VAR's and hidden video cameras throughout your home. Use 120 volt powered ones, not battery types. Go to an expert for this install.

Finally, put this mystery to bed, likely it will be yours' and her bed.

Ah, yes.



KB-


----------



## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> In response to your snide comment:
> 
> This isn't about me. The goal of this thread is to help Nick, and making rude remarks about him does not contribute to that purpose. Thank you, and have a nice day.


I made no "snide" comment. I suggested if you don't like the responses, put the posters on ignore. There is nothing snide about that. However, you are angry at the response I made in your thread in The Ladies' Lounge, so you've decided to single me out. Fine. 'Nuff said. You are now on ignore from my side of the fence. Fixed that, okay?

Now that I've dealt with that minutiae, let us address our OP, Nick. Nick has been posting about his marital problems for over two years; twenty-nine months, to be exact. 

Here's a brief compilation of what Nick has told us thus far:

His wife makes fun of him masturbating, even though she is not meeting his sexual needs.

She says horrible things to him, at time in front of the children. (Nick did not offer specifics.)

She will not kiss him

She has no respect for him.

She will no longer allow him to perform oral sex on her.

When Nick attempts to discuss his concerns with her, she frequently stares at her cell phone.

In the almost-29 months that Nick has periodically showed up, he has been given more than FIFTY PAGES worth of advice. He is still frustrated with his wife's behavior. She has now become even more egregiously disrespectful by spending her time at the other man's house hanging with OM's wife and working out.

Nick is upset about this, and rightfully so. HOWEVER - and you knew that was coming, didn't you? - he isn't angry. Or, at the very least, not angry enough to go nuclear and blow up this entire mess.

Nick, you may be back or you may not. But after all these pages of advice, which you have not taken, all I can tell you is you need to get really pissed off at your disrespectful wife. Until you get disgusted enough to pull the plug, I am sorry to say this looks like your future.


----------



## Prodigal

3Xnocharm said:


> Hell you’ve made zero progress. She found a loophole by chumming with the wife. Indirect direct contact.
> 
> These people need to go and you need to get up off the floor.


QFT.

And just to add what has been said in response to Nick's update, and agreed with by a number of posters, I give you this. AGAIN QFT. Charm nailed it.


----------



## oldtruck

Prodigal said:


> I made no "snide" comment. I suggested if you don't like the responses, put the posters on ignore. There is nothing snide about that. However, you are angry at the response I made in your thread in The Ladies' Lounge, so you've decided to single me out. Fine. 'Nuff said. You are now on ignore from my side of the fence. Fixed that, okay?
> 
> Now that I've dealt with that minutiae, let us address our OP, Nick. Nick has been posting about his marital problems for over two years; twenty-nine months, to be exact.
> 
> Here's a brief compilation of what Nick has told us thus far:
> 
> His wife makes fun of him masturbating, even though she is not meeting his sexual needs.
> 
> She says horrible things to him, at time in front of the children. (Nick did not offer specifics.)
> 
> She will not kiss him
> 
> She has no respect for him.
> 
> She will no longer allow him to perform oral sex on her.
> 
> When Nick attempts to discuss his concerns with her, she frequently stares at her cell phone.
> 
> In the almost-29 months that Nick has periodically showed up, he has been given more than FIFTY PAGES worth of advice. He is still frustrated with his wife's behavior. She has now become even more egregiously disrespectful by spending her time at the other man's house hanging with OM's wife and working out.
> 
> Nick is upset about this, and rightfully so. HOWEVER - and you knew that was coming, didn't you? - he isn't angry. Or, at the very least, not angry enough to go nuclear and blow up this entire mess.
> 
> Nick, you may be back or you may not. But after all these pages of advice, which you have not taken, all I can tell you is you need to get really pissed off at your disrespectful wife. Until you get disgusted enough to pull the plug, I am sorry to say this looks like your future.


Two things:

Thank you for a beautiful update providing important missing information.

Another example why poster should stick to the original thread instead of starting new ones.


----------



## Decorum

NickTheChemist said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I am back with updates. I haven’t logged in in a while so I have a lot to catch up on.
> 
> Things are up and down. There was progress and now setback.
> 
> Wife is now working out with John's wife 4-6 nights a week. She has become fast friends with Johns wife. We were very open in discussing her being over there and level of contact with him while I’m home at first, but now I feel in the dark.
> 
> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.
> 
> Advice?


----------



## CraigBesuden

NickTheChemist said:


> Sex frequency got better for a month or so after one of my wife’s closet friends got divorced because her husband wasn’t having ex with her.
> 
> Now my wife is happier and getting very fit and I support that snd her independence, but I’m getting uncomfortable with how much it seems that John is around while she’s over there hot snd sweaty working out with the wife in their garage.


So, your wife is scared that you might divorce her (as happened to her friend) and she’s now performing her wifely duties. Great.

You said the sex improved for only a month or so. I’d make it clear that you want her to maintain that level of sex to be satisfied in the marriage. She can attend to your needs and the neighbor as well.

As has been pointed out, you are ignoring all of the advice, so why bother.

If your wife is looking great, working out, and she’s giving you sex, and your marriage is secure as your wife clearly doesn’t want a divorce... then just stop worrying about this. What you don’t know doesn’t hurt you. Just work on improving yourself, improving your relationship with your wife, and have a great relationship with your wife in every way. Let her have her happiness hanging out with the neighbor’s wife and don’t ask questions.

There’s no point in getting upset over something that you will not do anything about. Let it go. If it’s not important enough for you to stop her, then it’s not important enough to worry about.


----------



## SunCMars

CraigBesuden said:


> There’s no point in getting upset over something that you will not do anything about. Let it go. If it’s not important enough for you to stop her, then *it’s not important enough to worry about.*


Oh, our Nick will continue to do the worrying.

And, yes/no...... he will not do anything to stop her.

He wants her to be happy at all costs...
He wants her to give him his share, and not to be so obvious about any 'other' sharing.

Damn! His wife sure likes to rub his nose in it. Just not that furry place where 'he' wants to rub it in.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Just read thru this thread. I think Nick is back to square 1. I'd be curious to know if the home chores are better balanced or if he's still doing the lion's share of the work after coming home from WORK. If it's not, then that alone tells you all you need to know about this relationship dynamic. It seems like at a minimum this foursome has turned into a threesome awhile ago, and Nick hasn't quite figured that our yet. The wives were probably good friends for some time now, and the absolute best window Nick had to get control of this situation was when he heard the comment that John's wife always knows where to find her husband when he's not at home... It would have been the perfect time to open that channel of communication to John's wife to lay out his concerns.


----------



## Robert22205

At first she was open with you about contact with John while she was working out in their garage. 
Shutting you out is a huge red flag?

How does she dress to work out?
Have you confirmed she works out with John's wife every night?
Does she ever workout with just John?
Who watches their kids while they work out???

Is John working out too or present during the workouts?
How long do they work out?
Does she come home immediately afterward ....or does she stay and socialize?

Why don't you take the kids and drop in on them?


----------



## nekonamida

Oh, Nick. I'm sorry to see that you failed to put boundaries in place. As a man of faith and head of the household, it is your job to be a leader. It is your job to protect your family even from your wife. You are refusing to take that role on and it will lead you back here finding out about an affair. Maybe one that's currently happening or one that will happen soon but it's coming. You still have a chance to turn this around by demanding answers from your wife and putting your foot down about the time she spends over there and the amount of transparency she is showing you. Rules, with consequences, and keeping others accountable is how you lead faithfully.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Nick, you don’t need to be bossy and controlling. All you need is for a pair of your wife’s panties to show up in John’s wife’s bed.

J/k


----------



## Cynthia

nekonamida said:


> Oh, Nick. I'm sorry to see that you failed to put boundaries in place. As a man of faith and head of the household, it is your job to be a leader. It is your job to protect your family even from your wife. You are refusing to take that role on and it will lead you back here finding out about an affair. Maybe one that's currently happening or one that will happen soon but it's coming. You still have a chance to turn this around by demanding answers from your wife and putting your foot down about the time she spends over there and the amount of transparency she is showing you. Rules, with consequences, and keeping others accountable is how you lead faithfully.


This looks a lot like victim blaming. 

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the man is in charge of the household, except in regards to keeping the tribes together for Old Testament purposes.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

CynthiaDe said:


> nekonamida said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, Nick. I'm sorry to see that you failed to put boundaries in place. As a man of faith and head of the household, it is your job to be a leader. It is your job to protect your family even from your wife. You are refusing to take that role on and it will lead you back here finding out about an affair. Maybe one that's currently happening or one that will happen soon but it's coming. You still have a chance to turn this around by demanding answers from your wife and putting your foot down about the time she spends over there and the amount of transparency she is showing you. Rules, with consequences, and keeping others accountable is how you lead faithfully.
> 
> 
> 
> This looks a lot like victim blaming.
> 
> Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the man is in charge of the household, except in regards to keeping the tribes together for Old Testament purposes.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The Bible pretty much says exactly that in many places.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Double post


----------



## Cynthia

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> The Bible pretty much says exactly that in many places.


No. It doesn't. I'm not going to explain it, as that is not what this thread is about, so suffice it to say that many people do not believe that. The concept of the husband being the head, as stated in the New Testament says the husband is the head of the wife, not the leader, not the boss, but the head that sits on the neck. It is a misunderstanding when people think that the husband is the head of the household.


----------



## MattMatt

I have moved this to CWI.


----------



## Stormguy2018

I guess Nick has left the building.


----------



## VladDracul

Nick can't be helped. He knows exactly what many other guys would do and he's choosing to stay, hoping his old lady or the neighbor will tire of banging the other. Meantime, the neighbor is making a lie out of whoever said, "A man can't stock two shelves".


----------



## Stormguy2018

VladDracul said:


> Nick can't be helped. He knows exactly what many other guys would do and he's choosing to stay, hoping his old lady or the neighbor will tire of banging the other. Meantime, the neighbor is making a lie out of whoever said, "A man can't stock two shelves".


I agree. If my wife was like his, I would've boogied a long time ago.


----------



## OnTheFly

Not everyone works through their **** to TAMs preferred timeline. 

Nick is on his own timetable.


----------



## SunCMars

OnTheFly said:


> Not everyone works through their **** to TAMs preferred timeline.
> 
> Nick is on his own timetable.


Yes, he is.

We can't always get what we want...


----------



## SunCMars

A better version!


----------



## MattMatt

Yeah. It really sucks for some people on TAM when a BS doesn't do exactly what they are told to do. How DARE they not obey?


----------



## SunCMars

I loves dem wimmen so mutch. I don't want them to love nobody alse, nobody but mees.
But themm wimmens love whose they wants.

I neva gets whats I waants!


----------



## SunCMars

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. It really sucks for some people on TAM when a BS doesn't do exactly what they are told to do. How DARE they not obey?


'Group think' runs deep in mankind, yes, in TAM THINK.
Every man, every woman owes it to deliver that righteous dollop to every other fool.

Real Karma often derives from this 'group think' and its inevitable avenging consequential results.

The result is the societal 'blanket party' given to these sinners.
Hit from all quarters, not seeing the fist or the kick that cometh'.

Ever seeing the contempt in others eyes, having doors shut in their face, from those that have become privy to the waywards wanton ways.

At one time......this.

Likely, still true in small towns, in those rural areas.

Women suffer this shunning, ever so more than men.

Ladies must be those darlings, men, they are those damn hunting dogs.




The Typist I-


----------



## Rubix Cubed

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. It really sucks for some people on TAM when a BS doesn't do exactly what they are told to do. How DARE they not obey?


 Yeah, but what really sucks is seeing the train coming and yelling for him to get out of the way while he has his fingers in his ears going "lalalalalalalala". He's already blinded by the headlight, the big splat is inevitable.


----------



## manwithnoname

Rubix Cubed said:


> Yeah, but what really sucks is seeing the train coming and yelling for him to get out of the way while he has his fingers in his ears going "lalalalalalalala". He's already blinded by the headlight, the big splat is inevitable.


Yes, we invest some time into caring about a total stranger, and offering advice that we believe will be the best for them.

But in the end, we can only cheer them on and hope they succeed. Unfortunately, they don't all succeed.


----------



## Prodigal

I was thinking about Nick tonight. Even if he doesn't go ballistic, I wish he'd show up uninvited at the neighbor's house while the girls are "working out." Hey, maybe that's all they are doing. Then again, maybe not. But if he'd just make his presence known, it would be a start.

Don't count Nick out yet. He may return. Granted, I doubt he'll take any of the advice given, but as I frequently say in my posts, "His life. His choice."


----------



## MattMatt

Hi, @NickTheChemist, how's it going? How are you?


----------



## Gabriel

The next update will be:

Well, you guys were all right. She was ****ing him the whole time.


----------



## Gabriel

I mean, put yourself in John's shoes. There is a presumably attractive woman down the street. 

"Her husband is gone a lot when she and I are home. We get along and I can tell she kinda digs me. I think I'm going to go over there and be friendly, maybe see where it goes. Maybe eventually we can have some secret sex during the day. I can tell she wants it. That would be so hot."


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Some people just cannot rip off the band aid and take appropriate action as in my opinion they are paralyzed by fear.
Nick....open your eyes brother. Get real with your wife and John.


----------



## TDSC60

A few hidden nanny cams will tell you exactly what is going on when he visits.


----------



## Malaise

I don't think OP wants to go that extra step.

Ignorance is bliss.


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## Chaparral

TDSC60 said:


> A few hidden nanny cams will tell you exactly what is going on when he visits.


This would be crucial for me. They are both acting inappropriately. The question is how inappropriate.

If you ask either of them and they are innocent of no more than being ridiculously boneheaded,They will act shocked and indignant.

If they have been banging like zoo monkeys and you ask them, they will act shocked and indignant.

Cameras and VARs are minimum requirements here.


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## OutofRetirement

Nick, your wife like's John and prioritizes John over you. You've expressed your feelings, and maybe your wife gave you some lip service, she initially tried to throw you some sex to shut you up, it probably did shut you up, but you know she really doesn't like having sex with you more than 18 times a year or so. She knows she can have it more, but she just doesn't want it. Now she is prioritizing John's wife over you. Don't even go there about exercising, she could do that in her home while you are there, it's about being with her and probably him. This is the reality as demonstrated by your wife's actions. 

It is kind of foolish for you trying to manipulate her to want you over him or her. She knows the three of you and this is who she has chosen. She can spend time with you, or she can spend time with them. I personally think she sounds like a pretty crappy wife. I wouldn't want her. What good is she? For you, I mean. I'm sure she's good for John, a nice little flirty woman on the side to boost him up. But what good is she for you? If you consider all the stuff you do for her and pay for her, you could do a lot better. Should you even care if she is cheating or not? She's not even a good friend, forget about a good spouse.

It's all good, Nick. You get to decide what you want, you have free will, but not to force other people what to do. You can ask her to change, but you can't make her. Given that you've already told her several times, I'm sure she gets the idea of what you want, so why stop repeating yourself over and over? My advice is to focus on yourself, what you want to do, accepting your wife for who she is and who her friends and flirters are.


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## hinterdir

Man up.

These boundaries are horrible and VERY inappropriate. 

I would nip this in the bud BIG TIME. Be VERY firm and very, very clear. This needs to be a non-negotiable issue...not a wish or a request. 
Tell your wife VERY directly you 100% find how close she and him are, them texting each other, him being in your house EVER alone with her when he is not their 100% out of bounds and demand that it stops.
I would go over and make a scene. What I mean is go to this neighbor directly, when he and his wife are there and tell him point blank he is never to step foot in your house again while you are not there, he is to stop texting your wife directly....back to group text and you do not accept him flirting with your wife in any way. 

Make things SUPER uncomfortable. Maybe you'll ruffle feathers so much your relationship with them is over. 

Good. 

Maybe his wife didn't even know and she'll handle him. 

Accepting a man alone in your house, a man you say your wife is attracted to, flirts with, ignores you completely around is totally unacceptable. This sounds like she and he need to just go no contact. 
You HAVE to have boundaries. Since she isn't going to enforce any then you have to. Do you want a healthy marriage with each other as the number one priority or being friends and close with another man being your wife's priority? 

Move quickly and decisively, it sounds like things may be too far along at this point.
I cannot believe you both accept him alone with her during the day in your house. That should have been a known no-no from the outset.


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## SunCMars

Nicks chemistry experiment with his dear wife is still brewing.

Last heard, it went from acidic to very base.

Nick's hopium was stolen from him by the neighbors.

His participation, here on TAM, was driven away by all the naysayers, those trying to keep him safe from DW's slow burn, her acidic, and divisive actions.

For Nick, the failure at home, with his desperate plans to see, to get beyond this, became that reminder.

The cheat-smelling, that acid-tongue-washed precipitate, ah, that which was continuously spewed out by our writers sent him off into some shamed refuge.

During the day, DW was exercising her legs on the treadmill and the exercise bike with the neighbors wife, in their across-the-street garage. 

And at other times?

Umm, during secret times, she likely was exercising her legs about the other husband, pulling his funny bone tighter.

Who? Why, the bold neighbor who 'openly' sniffed her highness, Nick's dear wife.
............................................................................

I fear, our @Lila or @MattMatt will close out this someday (zombie) tragic saga, this, all too soon.

Alas, it is closure we need. 

Yes, and nearly as much as the Nick's and other Diks who got cut-nicked by their hungry-for-love wayward wives.


The Typist-


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## Lila

Closing thread. OP hasn't posted since September 2019. 
@NickTheChemist if you ever return and would like to reopen this thread, pm me.


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