# How to build muscle?



## effess

Anyone know a good resource or online reference for a comprehensive plan on how to build muscle. I've been going to the gym regularly for a few years and have a good tone but would really like to focus on bulking up - basically getting buff. my routine now is a mix of some lifting and cardio but i wouldn't know where to begin to get the right mix of supplements diet and lifting to get bigger. 
Thanks.


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## chillymorn

eat healthy and no suplements are needed.

get good sleep 7-8 hrs a day

protein, lots of it again you don't have to suplement if you eat right.


weight train. rule of thumb .....sets of 8 or less for power and strength. give your self a good break inbetween sets 3-5 mins if your lifting heavy for power,


and do squats they are the biggest muscels in you body and when your legs and core are strong your whole body gets stronger.

keep good form. if you can't do it with good form then its too heavy. use a spotter so you can do weight that might be a little heavy but still use good form ...don't lift your a$$ of the bench don't wigle around strick form will help you not get hurt.


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## SprucHub

I agree with chilly. And change up your routine frequently - hit your muscles from different angles and positions.


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## Drover

Yay, a topic I actually know something about!

Forget about isolation movements. Stick with just the big compound lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses. Don't lift to failure. Keep rest between sets to around a minute. If you're looking for a good beginners book on strength training, get Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength.


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## Kathrynthegreat

Buy the book New Rules of Lifting.


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## Deejo

I believe we have a number of guys here that have or do compete. Hopefully they will chime in.

I haven't tried consciously to put on muscle weight for years. What I remember most about it, is that I was trying to eat 'clean' which consequently meant that I was eating ALL the time to hit my nutrition numbers.


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## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> Anyone know a good resource or online reference for a comprehensive plan on how to build muscle. I've been going to the gym regularly for a few years and have a good tone but would really like to focus on bulking up - basically getting buff. my routine now is a mix of some lifting and cardio but i wouldn't know where to begin to get the right mix of supplements diet and lifting to get bigger.
> Thanks.


:smthumbup:

1] T NATION | The Intelligent and Relentless Pursuit of Muscle

2]http://www.bodybuilding.com/

3]http://www.charlespoliquin.com/

4] SimplyShredded.com


Are you over 40?
What's your calorie intake?
What's your present bodyweight?

-----------------------------------------------------------

Edit

I forgot one more;

http://stronglifts.com/

This is where I started,very good resource on diet etc.
If you want to buld up,just stop the cardio , eat like a beast and lift hard and heavy.


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## effess

Caribbean Man said:


> Are you over 40?
> What's your calorie intake?
> What's your present bodyweight?


Im in my mid thirties
I take in prob around 2500 calories everyday sometimes more or less
Im around 200 lbs now. 
I tend to put on weight easily which is why I've always been reluctant to do this i was afraid id just get fat


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## Caribbean Man

Drover said:


> Yay, a topic I actually know something about!
> 
> Forget about isolation movements. Stick with just the big compound lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses. Don't lift to failure. Keep rest between sets to around a minute. If you're looking for a good beginners book on strength training, get Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength.


Mark Ripptoe is good stuff.


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## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> Im in my mid thirties
> I take in prob around 2500 calories everyday sometimes more or less
> Im around 200 lbs now.
> I tend to put on weight easily which is why I've always been reluctant to do this i was afraid id just get fat


Good weight and age.
I started at around 40 yrs old , at a weight of 180 lbs
Today I am 225 lbs.[ 42 yrs old ]
Forget about getting fat , as long as you build muscle , your muscle burns the excess fat.
As the others above said, just focus on HEAVY compound movements in the gym. 

Squats
Deadlifts
Overhead Press
Bench Press
Rows

2500 calories is barley enough to start. I had to up mine tp 3500 calories. I DID NOT GET FAT. I ate clean carbs. [ Oats , Brown Rice , Yams etc.]

Split up your meal into 5 smaller portions.

[ Also up your protein intake to a 1:1 ,{ 1g : 1lb } ratio as per bodyweight ]


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## Minncouple

To broad of a question. Need vitals, current diet and training routines.

Basic stuff:

11-15 cal per pound, depends on metabolism

If under say 10% BF, no more cardio than 5 days at 20min. if over 10% more cardio at 85% of heart rate.

Eat clean - clean proteins, green vege's, brown rice/yams. This is this most important item, NOT training. Aanyone can work out, few can really eat the diet to be truely ripped.

NO over the counter bodybuilding suppliments, most are complete waste of monies. Real food is best. 

Cardio first thing in the morning on empty stomach.

Do not over train with the weights, 5 days and 20-30 min is all it takes. Unless your chemically enhanced you will not recover in time for the next work out.

3500 calories is one pound of bodyweight.

There really is no secret, all those P90 type system and fades are a waste. Simple old basics work the best, these new fades are simply marketing gimics on old concepts.

Dont set to high of a goal. By this I mean, the bo flex guy, well he is on alot of drugs. Period. Pick a good reach-able goal. Very few, if any guys can be truley peeled ripped naturally. It takes years of diet, training, and knwoing your body.


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## Lon

Drover said:


> Yay, a topic I actually know something about!
> 
> Forget about isolation movements. Stick with just the big compound lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses. *Don't lift to failure*. Keep rest between sets to around a minute. If you're looking for a good beginners book on strength training, get Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength.


What do you mean by failure? Is that the same as fatigue? And if so why wouldn't you lift to fatigue, I thought that was the best way for muscle growth?


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## Drover

Failure means until you can't do another rep. No, it's NOT the best way to build muscle. A lot is made of overtraining, but really overtraining is pretty easy to avoid if you just don't push your sets to failure. My best muscle gains ever were made on a routine where I worked out THREE TIMES A DAY! But I didn't push to failure so I never burned out or overtrained. Your muscles will recover much more quickly this way, and they have to recover for the muscle to grow.


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## Sawney Beane

Drover said:


> Yay, a topic I actually know something about!
> 
> Forget about isolation movements. Stick with just the big compound lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses. Don't lift to failure. Keep rest between sets to around a minute. If you're looking for a good beginners book on strength training, get Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength.


+1:iagree:
I'd suggest adding pulldowns, as a compound for the upper back, until you get to a point where you can replace them with heaves (pullups / chinups / call them what you will). Those "big five" exercises are what you need!


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## effess

So the fact that i put on weight easily shouldn't deter diet? 
Also im reading alot here to do things like squads deadlifts etc instead of having a pecs day biceps day etc. can u mix both? I generally have a couple hrs to work out in the morning. could i go thru the squats presses routine than do a focused muscle group part?


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## Entropy3000

Drover said:


> Yay, a topic I actually know something about!
> 
> Forget about isolation movements. Stick with just the big compound lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench presses, overhead presses. Don't lift to failure. Keep rest between sets to around a minute. If you're looking for a good beginners book on strength training, get *Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength*.


You cannot go wrong with Mark Rippetoe.


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## Drover

effess said:


> So the fact that i put on weight easily shouldn't deter diet?
> Also im reading alot here to do things like squads deadlifts etc instead of having a pecs day biceps day etc. can u mix both? I generally have a couple hrs to work out in the morning. could i go thru the squats presses routine than do a focused muscle group part?


Forget the stupid isolation routines. Forget the stupid isolation movements. You don't need a couple of hours, an hour max is plenty. Do a few full body movements like squats, deads, and you'll muscle up.


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## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> So the fact that i put on weight easily shouldn't deter diet?
> Also im reading alot here to do things like squads deadlifts etc instead of having a pecs day biceps day etc. can u mix both? I generally have a couple hrs to work out in the morning. could i go thru the squats presses routine than do a focused muscle group part?


You can do an upper body / lower body split.

Day 1 Chest [ Bench Press], Shoulders [Overhead Press ] , Triceps [ Close Grip Bench Press or Skull Crushers ]

Day 2 Rest + Eat

Day 3 Back [ Deadlift , Barbell Row and Pull Up] , Biceps [ Bicep Curl ]

Day 4 Rest + Eat

Day 5 Legs [Squat ] Abdominals [ Leg Raise ]

That's a basic template of only compound exercises. Make sure and have at least EIGHT HOURS OF SLEEP especially on work out days.
Two hours after you work out, EAT A LARGE MEAL consisting of clean carbs and lean protein .
Two hours before working out, have a solid meal or a protein shake.

As long as your diet is clean , you new weight will be only muscle.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

It's good to do other things too that require handling your body weight...like indoor rock climbing you can do overhang ladders, builds awesome core strength... do ramp climbs on the treadmill the days you are working your upper body when you are doing your warm up... go bicycling on your rest days, do some swimming or cross country skiing...work out to go ice climbing, so when you're working your arms on the weights that are on the cables... go to a boot camp class once in a while to shake it up a bit. Take a yoga class on your rest day, so you are really resting and stretching out. 

I agree with muscle burning more calories. Except for my lovely female parts, I am pretty much muscle. 5'2" and 103 pounds and I don't worry about what I eat. I do like protein but eat a fair amount of carbs and believe it or not fats (I might need more fats because I have had a brain injury/oxygen deprivation.) I agree with the sleep. Your body's hormones that regulate the entire body need to be regular, and they require that resting state you get with sleep in order to have proper levels circulating, and it's all tied somehow with circadian rhythm. If you want to boost that a bit, go outside for 15 minutes at least at 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. every day and go for a short walk in the evening. 

Never skip breakfast.

Pullups are a great way to test how you're doing, and they're fun because they're impressive and build your confidence in progress...but remember this...pullups are only good for training for more pullups...once you understand that pullups are fun. (They do build great core strength if you do them slowly...)


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## LFC

Lift heavy and when you actually begin to fear the workouts , learn to push through . Google EDT bryce lane have it all w/o or his brute force he man w/o


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## chillymorn

because of time constrains and old habit I lift 3 times a week 

mon.wed.fri and then the weekend off for rest and reward 

I do a whole body work out takes 1hour 3 sets of each exercise.

squat 
lat pull downs
calf raises
leg extension
leg curl
bench
tri extensions
flys
side arm raises 
curl
wrist curl

1 min break between sets unless I'm going heavy then 3 min breaks.



if I have extra time I try to throw something else in or run the treadmill or the airydyne.

the key is consistancy try to never miss a day ...except when sick.

you will be surprised most time when I feel like blowing it off and force myself to go I have a great work out and you feel like wow I'm glad I went. 


if you really don't feel like going tell your self I'll just do 1 set of everythinh and get the heck out of there...... but when you get there and start moving some plates around you'll say ..well I'm here and just do your normal routine.


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## Drover

No offense but that might be the worst routine I've ever seen.


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## effess

Caribbean Man said:


> You can do an upper body / lower body split.
> 
> Day 1 Chest [ Bench Press], Shoulders [Overhead Press ] , Triceps [ Close Grip Bench Press or Skull Crushers ]
> 
> Day 2 Rest + Eat
> 
> Day 3 Back [ Deadlift , Barbell Row and Pull Up] , Biceps [ Bicep Curl ]
> 
> Day 4 Rest + Eat
> 
> Day 5 Legs [Squat ] Abdominals [ Leg Raise ]
> 
> That's a basic template of only compound exercises. Make sure and have at least EIGHT HOURS OF SLEEP especially on work out days.
> Two hours after you work out, EAT A LARGE MEAL consisting of clean carbs and lean protein .
> Two hours before working out, have a solid meal or a protein shake.
> 
> As long as your diet is clean , you new weight will be only muscle.


How many reps and sets of each? 
And this is enough? I'm not doubting you, but I have this idea in my head that you are basically eating proteins all the time and lifting ALOT. I never though that doing a few compound exercises every other day would work to that good of a effect (plus exercise). 
I also have a question about squats. Whenever I do squats, I find it much easier on my knees (and safer I don't have spotters) to use the Smith Machine, but the little I've read really seems down on anything that doesn't allow complete free movement. So are Smith Machines counter-productive to the advice offered on this thread?


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## Machiavelli

Effess,
This subject is kind of like religion, everyone has their own passionate beliefs, their own prophets they follow and their own Bibles. However, there is more than one way to enlightenment when it comes to weight training.

How tall are you and what's your body fat %? I know you're mid 30's @ 200. What you need to understand is that your testosterone has peaked and been slightly declining for about ten years. You can still build good muscle even into late life, but it gets slower and slower. You need to have realistic expectations or you'll get discouraged. 

Knock off the cardio, it's a waste of time. Ignore P90X and muscle confusion, ignore plyometrics, ignore big balls and other commercially conceived bullski ****ski.

You can build plenty of muscle on barbells and you can build it on machines. Or you can do both as I did back in the 60's and 70's. Nowadays, I just use machines, mostly.

Forget supplements. The only ones that work are illegal, with one exception.

You can either lift to failure or not. I almost always do one set to failure of each exercise, sometimes I'll follow that with a quick drop set to failure. In the past I've used multi-sets, both to failure and not to failure. It really doesn't matter, just so you're really working hard for the last 3 reps in a set. I prefer lifting to failure as it gets me through a workout in about 15 minutes.

What does actually make a difference is your exercise selection, your diet, and your rest. If you don't lift heavy compounds you won't grow (unless you're on gear), but there is still a place for isolation movements (in conjunction with compounds) if you're primarily lifting for physique rather than just strength.

Also, I don't particularly like backsquats and I don't do them, however, I do use belt squats. 

The main moves are squats of some kind, bench (I prefer decline bench), deadlifts, chins if you can or pull downs if you can't chin, bent over barbell row or a machine row, overhead press, dips. Do that 3X a week until you stop making progress. Make sure you get at least 8 hours of sleep or you won't be maxing your endogenous testosterone.


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## Machiavelli

effess said:


> How many reps and sets of each?
> And this is enough? I'm not doubting you, but I have this idea in my head that you are basically eating proteins all the time and lifting ALOT. I never though that doing a few compound exercises every other day would work to that good of a effect (plus exercise).
> I also have a question about squats. Whenever I do squats, I find it much easier on my knees (and safer I don't have spotters) to use the Smith Machine, but the little I've read really seems down on anything that doesn't allow complete free movement. So are Smith Machines counter-productive to the advice offered on this thread?


You need to eat about 300 to 400 grams of protein per day. Smith machine is fine, Squat rack is fine, Belt squat is fine, whatever you do make sure you go to at least parallel.

Do you have a lifting partner?


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## Entropy3000

effess said:


> How many reps and sets of each?
> And this is enough? I'm not doubting you, but I have this idea in my head that you are basically eating proteins all the time and lifting ALOT. I never though that doing a few compound exercises every other day would work to that good of a effect (plus exercise).
> I also have a question about squats. Whenever I do squats, I find it much easier on my knees (and safer I don't have spotters) to use the Smith Machine, but the little I've read really seems down on anything that doesn't allow complete free movement. So are Smith Machines counter-productive to the advice offered on this thread?


Get and read the Rippetoe book on Starting Strength. There are all sorts of aspects to training. There are all sorts of discussions one can have on sets and reps. But doing 5 sets of 5 is not a bad place to start. There are specific reasons for this. 

One needs to understand that there are novices, intermediates, advanced and elite lifters. It is a continuum, but the takeway is that if a novice trains like one of the others they will not be doing the most effective program for them. That is the most common mistake. A novice doing an advanced training routine. Keep it simple. A novice will increase much faster following a novice program. 

Squats, Deadlifts, Overhead Presses, and Bench Presses. Throw in certain assistance movements like Rows and Chins. If you did just these in a proper program you could be a monster. There are all sorts of variations to these movements. Novice programs often do full body routines for a while until they cannot recover and then one starts to split the routines up over time. That is when a lifter morphs into an intermediate. This is explained in Starting Strength.

Squats are not bad on your knees. I persoanlly have never injured myself with Squats. And I have done a lot of them. 

One can get brutally strong by doing just a few compound movements per training session. Two to four times a week. 

You might want to try the 5/3/1 methodology. 
You can get the E-Book for $20 here -> Elite FTS


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## effess

Machiavelli said:


> You need to eat about 300 to 400 grams of protein per day. Smith machine is fine, Squat rack is fine, Belt squat is fine, whatever you do make sure you go to at least parallel.
> 
> Do you have a lifting partner?


No lifting partner.


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## Machiavelli

effess said:


> No lifting partner.


If you don't have a partner, get one. I've trained with and without and you must be super motivated to train without one. If you choose to train alone, be aware of that. Also, use machines for the chest press when training alone.


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## Caveman

Listen like it has been said forget the P90X bull and other TV gimmicks. Trust me I've tried some of them including P90X. Do your homework. Look at what the guys back in the 40's and 50's did to build their physiques. Most of them had some impressive physiques that most of us today won't love to have. Look at how they lifted (mostly basic lifts) and what they ate. They consumed mostly whole foods without using these "miracle" supps we have today. Think about it back in the 40's/50's it was all about buildng muscle and not about some company or yahoo trying to get you to "lose weight" by emptying your wallet with false claims. Google Paleo/Primal diets/lifestyle. I have been doing this for some time now and never have felt better. I am leaning out and building muscle and I take NO over the counter sups (i.e. junk) except for a zinc/melatonin sup to help with sleep. As far as daily calories to consume...dude eat until you are satiated and no more. Why would you eat past satisfaction just to reach a random number like 2500 or 3500?:rofl: If you are satisfied at 250 cals at a meal it makes no sense to me keep eating cuz you think you need 350 cals or you'll just shrink! I have no idea how many cals I eat on a daily basis but all I know it the fat is melting off and my muscle are getting fuller and I am 38. As far as cardio is concerned I agree chronic long distance running will sabotage your muscle building goals. I lift weights 3 days a week and I take long walks (30-40 mins) like twice a week max. You should sprint at least once a week. Sprinting burns fat not muscle and in fact it helps build muscles (hams, quads, glutes, upper body). The next time you watch Olympic track and field check out the sprinters' physiques. Then check out the long distance runners "physiques". Which would you rather have?:scratchhead: Lift "heavy" you have to challenge your muscles or they won't grow. Each workout try to do one more rep at a weight or add slightly more weight (2.5 - 5 lbs at a time) to your lift but don't kill yourself. To sum it all up go back to basics and what worked before in the past. It's all about being healthy and having good fitness then being bulky. Good luck


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## meson

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> It's good to do other things too that require handling your body weight...like indoor rock climbing you can do overhang ladders, builds awesome core strength... do ramp climbs on the treadmill the days you are working your upper body when you are doing your warm up... go bicycling on your rest days, do some swimming or cross country skiing...work out to go ice climbing, so when you're working your arms on the weights that are on the cables... go to a boot camp class once in a while to shake it up a bit. Take a yoga class on your rest day, so you are really resting and stretching out.


Quite simply you build muscle by stressing it through use and then feeding it enough to build it. Providing enough protein is essential for building new muscle. There is an optimum window of 20-30 minutes after muscle use where the absorption of protein to build and replace muscle is most effective. 

What is not essential is weight training. One can build muscle through any sort of activity that stresses muscle. Homemaker is completely correct in that body weight exercises are an effective way of building muscle. The real question is what do you want to do with your muscle? If all you want is to collect muscle bulk then weight lifting is probably the way to go. If you need muscle to perform specific activities like dance, gymnastics or climbing then you need to manage your exercises to avoid over building bulk by focusing on exercises that stress fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers in the appropriate ratio for you activity. 

There is nothing wrong with weight training but it is not the only way.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Make sure you work your muscles in groups...and do the big muscles first and then the little muscles after they're warmed up from doing the big muscles. For instance NEVER touch your shoulders unless you have done back and biceps/triceps first.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

meson said:


> Quite simply you build muscle by stressing it through use and then feeding it enough to build it. Providing enough protein is essential for building new muscle. There is an optimum window of 20-30 minutes after muscle use where the absorption of protein to build and replace muscle is most effective.
> 
> What is not essential is weight training. One can build muscle through any sort of activity that stresses muscle. Homemaker is completely correct in that body weight exercises are an effective way of building muscle. The real question is what do you want to do with your muscle? If all you want is to collect muscle bulk then weight lifting is probably the way to go. If you need muscle to perform specific activities like dance, gymnastics or climbing then you need to manage your exercises to avoid over building bulk by focusing on exercises that stress fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers in the appropriate ratio for you activity.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with weight training but it is not the only way.


When I was younger I was an EMT and in the military. Instead of weighing 103 I weighed 120 and I had a lot more bulk in my legs. I needed to be able to carry a 60 pound pack or at least half of a person on a litter or in a real emergency someone across my back. Legs were thus important. I also trained in extreme heat, running in the Phoenix suburbs on a track in the middle of the day in the summer, that's when your sweat evaporates and don't wipe your face because you'll scratch yourself with the salt crystals. When my kids were younger I used to carry them too in a Burley trailer with their friends, so 70-80 pounds going biking, or up to 40/50 pounds with equipment in a ski pulk cross country skiing or my favorite orienteering running through the woods off-trail with a 30 pound kid in a backpack plus water and emergency gear (plus diapers, etc.) 

I do think the best way to train is with a goal in mind. You never know when you want to have some fun by running up a mountain and then free-climbing at high speed the open face rock summit and doing some pushups at the top just because you are getting along in years and enjoying it while you still can!

I went kayaking last Sunday and was in some little bit of whitewater, only Class 1, but it was nice to have core strength and upper body/arm strength otherwise it would have been tiring, instead of fun.


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## meson

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I do think the best way to train is with a goal in mind. You never know when you want to have some fun by running up a mountain and then free-climbing at high speed the open face rock summit and doing some pushups at the top just because you are getting along in years and enjoying it while you still can!
> 
> I went kayaking last Sunday and was in some little bit of whitewater, only Class 1, but it was nice to have core strength and upper body/arm strength otherwise it would have been tiring, instead of fun.


Yes, the best way to train is to acheive a specific goal. This helps the commitment to the training as well. I am getting along in years and it effects my training only in that my recovery time is getting longer. If I don't supplement with protien right after exercise (with an energy bar) my muscles take extra long to recover. 

But I am able to keep up with people half my age who are fit.


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## LFC

Here are the links I mentioned
The Ultimate Brute-Force Real World He-Man Power Program
Have it all!

The first one I did for about 5 weeks and people thought I was on roids (even though I was eating low carb at the time)
,I just could not keep liftng at that intensity trust me though its a do or die attitude thats needed and thats what sparks the hormones that are needed for muscle growth


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## Entropy3000

stritle said:


> are you serious?!?!? you don't actually believe that do you?:scratchhead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> great advice as always from Entropy.
> 
> one other point to make is that *you really want to just pick a plan and carry it out.*
> bouncing from method to method (just because so-and-so said it worked for him) without allowing your body to realize the benifit of each method will cause delays in progress.


Yes, this is so critical. It's about hard work over time. Make it a life style. One of the toughest lessons to learn.


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## Caveman

stritle said:


> are you serious?!?!? you don't actually believe that do you?:scratchhead:
> Without getting into a pissing match yes I do believe this. If your body is saying "I'm full" why on earth would you keep force feeding it just to achieve certain calorie count? I get needing to eat a certain amount of calories daily so that all systems are functioning correctly. But saying to HAVE to have 3500 cals for example no more no less no matter what or you won't achieve your goals is false. If you consumed lunch at 12:00 and was scheduled to eat again at 3:00 but you were still satified from lunch where put more food in you gut just cuz it's 3 o'clock? :scratchhead: We need to listen to our bodies more and not do things cuz "we have to". To each his own but if I'm not hungry that means my body is still dealing with the meal I just ate. Before the information age our ancestors and what not didn't count any cals and I don’t think obesity was an issue it is today. They were way more fit than we are today and ate when hungry and not cuz "it was time". Read "Primal Blueprint" and "Paleo Solution" and/or check out marksdailyapple dot com. I don't benefit from any of these sources I am just a regular guy who committed to this way of living and have benefited tremendously from it.


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## LFC

I agree caveman The workouts I mentioned above were all when I was low carb I believe its the quality of the food,the intensity and the right exercises are the key. On Bryce Lanes old board there was a guy on there that is just about the strongest guy I know and he mentioned how he could still.lift heavy and intense on very little food. I'm talking about hoisting 250lb sandbags and nemerous handstand push ups .


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## Machiavelli

stritle said:


> i'd agree that assigning an arbitrary number of calories is useless, but if the 3500 was selected due to a maintenance level of calories being slightly below that mark,* and the goal is building muscle* you should choke down the food.


If the goal is adding NEW muscle, 4000+ daily cals has to be the goal at a minimum. Think GOMAD.


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## LFC

What would an 8k clean daily diet look like


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## Drover

LFC said:


> What would an 8k clean daily diet look like


A lotta brown rice, oatmeal and whole wheat pasta I'd guess.


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## Drover

stritle, why would you pay for this? All you need to do is a little math. I didn't get the feeling they were calling you out. Just sounded like they were stating it's hard to get to 8k calories w/o quite a bit of sugar/fat. Which it is, but not impossible.


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## Drover

stritle said:


> i was making a good run at competition and couldn't afford to experiment. paying a little for a higher level of experience wasn't a big deal at the time. i was shown lots of little tricks and tweaks along the way that made a big difference.


Ah, gotcha.


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## LFC

No not calling you out just interested I could not handle pasta and brown in huge amountsrice , I was thinking more of oils and nut butter . Yeah please pm the links , also competitve at bb? Or something else


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> If the goal is adding NEW muscle, 4000+ daily cals has to be the goal at a minimum. Think GOMAD.


GOMAD is good stuff.
But I couldn't drink so much milk! I used to drink 2 litres / Day and I would still feel bloated.But I know others who did it and it worked for them.
Where I live in the Caribbean,we eat a lot of starchy foods called ground provisions or what you guys call yam. We have lots of different varieties . I used them a lot and it worked for me. Rolled Oats and Brown rice [ The one with the husk on.]
Olive Oil also.
I don't use much pasta. Makes me feel stuffed.


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## Drover

Caribbean Man said:


> Where I live in the Caribbean,we eat a lot of starchy foods called ground provisions or what you guys call yam.


How did it take so long for sweet potatoes to get mentioned. They're a very healthy, nutritious and high-calorie food.


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## UpnDown

Read through this all, and like many have said it is almost like a religion. You need to find the path that works for you and then stick to it.

My only real suggestion though, be realistic with your goals and the routine you eventually do select.

Picking something that will be hard for you to maintain in the beginning will only result in you giving up and failing.

There is nothing wrong with starting slow then eventually building yourself up through the months, be open to trying new things and expanding your routine.


----------



## Drover

UpnDown said:


> Read through this all, and like many have said it is almost like a religion. You need to find the path that works for you and then stick to it.
> 
> My only real suggestion though, be realistic with your goals and the routine you eventually do select.
> 
> Picking something that will be hard for you to maintain in the beginning will only result in you giving up and failing.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with starting slow then eventually building yourself up through the months, be open to trying new things and *expanding your routine*.


This is where most people go wrong. They start out simple and see a lot of progress early on. Then they get excited and start jonesing for more, faster progress and expand/complicate their routine. Or they change things up too soon before they've milked the gains out of what they're doing. Keep it simple. When things get stale and you plateau, make small changes. Change a movement or two. Play with rep/rest schemes a little. But the basics are simple and adding a bunch of crappy isolation movements usually screws things up a lot more than it helps.


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## Entropy3000

Yeah, you start adding this and that and all of a sudden you lose your focus on what is important.

Wendler puts it well when he says stop majoring in the minors. His point is to put your energies into the main exercises that really make the difference.

I have been guilty of this and have to fight the temptation all the time by trying to put too many things into a given cycle of training. So I am more careful now. If I add something I delete something and then assess to see if it is really going to help me with my goals.

There are so many variations to choose from of a given movement so it is easy to keep a routine fresh but still be faithful to the fundamental movements.

For sure prioritize the most important movements when energy levels are high early in the session.

There have been periods where I have gained muscle where I cycled in high volume training and increased my work capacity. That said for me now I am trying to stay focused for the longer term progression. If I feel I need some added volume on a given day I program that in but try to be careful it does not negatively impact the rest of the weeks training. It is very much about recovery to lift another day.


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## Machiavelli

Drover said:


> But the basics are simple and adding a bunch of crappy isolation movements usually screws things up a lot more than it helps.


excellent post. There are always exceptions to every rule, but Isolations should, for the most part, be reserved for more advanced trainees who've had a stall in progress. Even then, they should generally be used pre or post compound movement as part of a superset or pre-exhaust. Stick to the big compounds, then stick to them some more. Lift big, eat big, sleep big.


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## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> excellent post. There are always exceptions to every rule, but Isolations should, for the most part, be reserved for more advanced trainees who've had a stall in progress. Even then, they should generally be used pre or post compound movement as part of a superset or pre-exhaust. Stick to the big compounds, then stick to them some more. Lift big, eat big, sleep big.


That was one of my mistakes in the begining. Too many islation movements.
Bicep Curls , Pulldowns ,D.Bell Side Laterals.
With limited results.

When I started doing Pull Ups , Weighted Pullups , B. Bell Rows ,and Deadlifts ,OH Press my back and shoulder exploded.

Now when I train back,I only do one isolation movement at the end of the entire work out, if I still have the energy.
My lats,traps and shoulders also began to grow.


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## Deejo

Work with what you've got.

At nearly 47, putting on 20 pounds of muscle is no longer on my radar. However, keeping 20 pounds of fat from accumulating, is.

I've never been a big guy, but have almost always at least looked like someone that tries ... with varying degrees of success, to stay in shape. There seems to be a point, particularly with guys that do stay in shape, where you become 'timeless'.

Tough to tell if you're 30 or 50. I still get a kick when people just a few years older than me, refer to me as 'young man', or people presume you are the same age as your colleagues that are 10 to 15 years your junior.


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## Entropy3000

Deejo said:


> Work with what you've got.
> 
> *At nearly 47*, putting on 20 pounds of muscle is no longer on my radar. However, keeping 20 pounds of fat from accumulating, is.
> 
> I've never been a big guy, but have almost always at least looked like someone that tries ... with varying degrees of success, to stay in shape. There seems to be a point, particularly with guys that do stay in shape, where you become 'timeless'.
> 
> Tough to tell if you're 30 or 50. I still get a kick when people just a few years older than me, refer to me as 'young man', or people presume you are the same age as your colleagues that are 10 to 15 years your junior.


Ah ... to be young and 47 again!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Or 48. I get the same thing, people think I'm in my 30's. When I tell them I have a nearly 22 year old in addition to the nearly 12 and just 8 their jaws drop, further still when I say I had him when I was 26. 

eHarmony is depressing when there are photos. You look at people who are maybe just a few years older and they look old enough to be your dad, or your gramps. That just doesn't go over well with me. It's a huge psychological hurdle, one I'm really sure I couldn't get over. Something is wrong when someone posts a photo of themselves with their four grown sons and you archive them because you know it just wouldn't work, you'd rather go out with one of the sons!

I delete anyone who participates in motorized sports. Also golf (which I find really boring and pointless, just my opinion) and motorcycling (which leads to injuries, or death, and is needlessly dangerous considering the roads in our state...if I was cruising in the desert states it would be a different story.) 

Having dated someone and then found him nearly dead certainly does not help the issue of health and fitness when it comes to dating. The truth is he had neglected his health in many ways and did not really pay attention to symptoms. 

I have to say the healthiest person I know personally is a guy who has survived colon cancer twice.


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## Lon

HNU, I know what you mean about appearances... at 35 years old I am finding many women my age look like they are still 25, and a number look like my mom's friends - 30's is a bad decade for some people. Unfortunately the only ones on those sites that message me are the old looking ones and it is depressing like you say... and the young looking ones NEVER bother to reply to me.

Also, I would HIGHLY recommend not filtering ones who enjoy motorsports or golf, unless they are showing you it's their ONLY hobby, I find I enjoy a lot of things including golf and would love to ride a motorcycle in the summer, but those are activities that will not consume me, and when I ride I am responsible (you probably are associating all the young idiots who decided to treat cars like pylons on an obstacle course).

Just saying to keep an open mind and not limit yourself based on qualities that may not really be a big factor in the kind of person you'd find happiness with.


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## Entropy3000

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> *Something is wrong when someone posts a photo of themselves with their four grown sons and you archive them because you know it just wouldn't work, you'd rather go out with one of the sons!*


Delightful!! :rofl: :smthumbup:

I wish you happiness dear lady.


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## Caribbean Man

Deejo said:


> Work with what you've got.
> 
> At nearly 47, putting on 20 pounds of muscle is no longer on my radar. However, keeping 20 pounds of fat from accumulating, is.
> 
> I've never been a big guy, but have almost always at least looked like someone that tries ... with varying degrees of success, to stay in shape. There seems to be a point, particularly with guys that do stay in shape, where you become 'timeless'.
> 
> Tough to tell if you're 30 or 50. I still get a kick when people just a few years older than me, refer to me as 'young man', or people presume you are the same age as your colleagues that are 10 to 15 years your junior.


This one is for the moderator....

Never too old sir!

The 74-year-old bodybuilder: Japan's slickest septuagenarian - YouTube


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uH2R1xRMiw&feature=related


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Lon said:


> Also, I would HIGHLY recommend not filtering ones who enjoy motorsports or golf, unless they are showing you it's their ONLY hobby, I find I enjoy a lot of things including golf and would love to ride a motorcycle in the summer, but those are activities that will not consume me, and when I ride I am responsible (you probably are associating all the young idiots who decided to treat cars like pylons on an obstacle course).
> 
> Just saying to keep an open mind and not limit yourself based on qualities that may not really be a big factor in the kind of person you'd find happiness with.


This is off-topic of course. I agree about not limiting myself but tend, maybe too much, towards environmentalism and the mowing of large tracts of natural habitat and using gas and oil for pleasure riding is a big hurdle for me. I purposely chose to live where I could limit my use of gas and can bicycle, kayak and xc ski locally. I'm toeing the line and thinking next winter my kids and I will do some downhill skiing (them) and boarding (me.) It's one of those things where the benefits might outweigh the costs since it's social, and the mountain is local. I have a free pass as a student, and my kids can do the after school program (on a PTA activities scholarship.) 

One limiting factor is I don't want to date anyone who lives more than 20-30 miles away. It's not just the gas, but the wear and tear on a human being spending that much time in a car, and then the hurdles of really getting to know someone when they don't already live in your local community. I've had really bad luck with long-distance relationships. I think there is a tendency to feel obligated, for me, after someone is driving so far to be with me, and also being deprived of a day to day experience without the commitment of living together. 

I was open-minded before now I am pretty much how I was as a child and more in touch with what really works for me. Same activities and past-times, same personality, etc. I even have a guy friend who reminds me a lot of the boyfriend I had in preschool  I guess I'd like to date someone where I can hop on my bike and meet him downtown for dinner, lunch or a ride to get ice cream. Or to go to the movies or hang out at the beach in the evening to BBQ.

I'm also aware of some inconsistencies like I volunwork at a movie theater and that takes energy to run. But it's a place that shows environmental and prosocial films in addition to the indies. I drive to get there, but usually combine the drive with other errands. And I use the computer a lot for work and of course TAM. 

I really don't want to compromise myself in a dating/relationship situation. Therapy has returned me to a state of being 12 and knowing my mind. Unfortunately I am as fit as a 12 year old too, and this does create some problems with dating. Everyone acts so unnecessarily grown up sometimes, overthinking stuff, defining themselves according to grown up terms. Maybe that's why they age, because they think they have to!

To keep to topic, working out should be fun! Just another activity that you enjoy spending time on. Like everything else.


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## Juicer

Can't believe I missed this. 

However, there I can think of a few things that you could benefit supplementing. And no, it ain't the juice. 

Fish oil is really good for your joints, and has a host of other great benefits for your body. And unless you are eating cold water fish 5 nights a week, you aren't getting enough in. So I would suggest throwing in some of this. 

Also, for your protein:
Taking in 300-400g of protein is a horrible idea. You'll be crapping a brick. Ideally, you aim for 1g of protein for every lbs. you weigh. So I weigh 210, so I try to get around 210g of protein. 
Also, at night, your body goes catabolic, and will eat up your muscle to fuel itself. Now, you can either eat a fair amount of cottage cheese, or try getting a casein protein shake before bed. 
Unless your body fat % is over 12-15. Then you won't need it, you body burns up the fat. 

As for your workouts, isolation movements are not super great. Free weights are the best, because they stimulate the stabilizer muscles, and make you grow more proportionally. 
I would suggest free weights for your triceps, legs, biceps, chest when possible. 
Machines are good for your back and shoulders. 

And don't get me wrong, machines are good. But they aren't the same. The movements aren't natural, and it doesn't stimulate the stabilizer muscle as much as free weights do. 

I am also a big fan of the hodgetwins on youtube. So you may try watching their videos. Called twinmuscleworkout. They give some great, humorous advice.


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## Mr_brown

I've been using this workout From body building dot com forum

A Simple beginner's Routine You will do 3 work outs per week on non consecutive days. The first work out is your heavy work out. The second work out is your medium work out, use 10% less weight for your work sets. The final work out for the week is your lite work out, use 20% less weight.

Do a lite warm up with 1/4 of your work sets weight. Do a medium warm up with 1/2 of your work sets weight. Do 2 work sets with the same weight. Choose a starting weight and start light.

These are the seven exercises you will be starting with.

Squats Bench Presses Bent-Over Rows Overhead Barbell Presses Stiff-Legged Deadlifts Barbell Curls Calf Raises

You will be running this program on a five week cycle as follows: The first week do all 4 sets for 8 reps. The second week do all 4 sets for 9 reps. The third week do all 4 sets for 10 reps. The fourth week do all 4 sets for 11 reps. The fifth week do all 4 sets for 12 reps. If you got all of the required reps on the fifth week then increase the weight by 10% and

repeat the cycle. If you didn't get all of the reps on the fifth week then repeat the cycle with the same weight. You shouldn't need more than one minute rest between the warm up sets and you shouldn't need more than one minute thirty seconds between the work sets. Do some cardio and abs work on non weight training days.


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## Caribbean Man

Juicer said:


> I am also a big fan of the hodgetwins on youtube. So you may try watching their videos. Called twinmuscleworkout. They give some great, humorous advice.




Hodgetwins super hilarious, but sound scientifically based advice.
Good website also.


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## Machiavelli

Juicer said:


> And don't get me wrong, machines are good. But they aren't the same. The movements aren't natural, .


Yes, we're born with a barbell in our hands. That's totally natural. Sorry, they're both tools and both have their pros and cons.


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## anonymouskitty

If you want lean muscle I suggest joining a crossfit gym and consulting the trainers for a diet choice, or you can take up mma or thai boxing, the conditioning workout is sufficient to build lean and mean muscle 

Recently though wife and I have bought a few home-workout routines P90x among them is a pretty good routine but its very very demanding

Also check this out ->Scooby's Workshop | Home Fitness & Bodybuilding Workouts

Eat 6 meals a day, stick to a low carb diet, Whey protein and creatine and eggs are all good sources of protein and lean meat too but don't consume soy thats protein for girlies and not really a good source of protein

And sleep for 7-8 hrs a day

And as someone said Core is key to getting an athletic body


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## Drover

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, we're born with a barbell in our hands. That's totally natural. Sorry, they're both tools and both have their pros and cons.


Most machines have very little in the way of pros except they're easier for lazy people.

Free weights require you to use muscle groups and their stabilizer muscles. They require coordination and balance. This is the way you move naturally when you complete a task in real life. 

When you use machines, you're literally training your muscles work badly, to try to move weight on their own without asking other muscles to help, and without any need to balance the weight. Completing any kind of actually talk in real life this way is just asking for an injury.


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## Sawney Beane

Drover said:


> Most machines have very little in the way of pros except they're easier for lazy people.
> 
> Free weights require you to use muscle groups and their stabilizer muscles. They require coordination and balance. This is the way you move naturally when you complete a task in real life.
> 
> When you use machines, you're literally training your muscles work badly, to try to move weight on their own without asking other muscles to help, and without any need to balance the weight. Completing any kind of actually talk in real life this way is just asking for an injury.


The biggest "pro" about machines is how they limit the lifter's ability to drop the weights on themselves or anyone else. You can at least get used to feeling a load on your muscles in relative safety before you take to free weights and drop the bar on your foot, knee or neck...


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## Sawney Beane

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, we're born with a barbell in our hands. That's totally natural. Sorry, they're both tools and both have their pros and cons.


To clarify, "Natural" as in the way non-stabilised objects you try to lift behave in the world outside the gym...


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## Sawney Beane

anonymouskitty said:


> creatine... are all good sources of protein


Creatine is in no way a protein source. It is a protein _byproduct_, biosynthesised by the body _from_ protein.


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## Drover

Sawney Beane said:


> The biggest "pro" about machines is how they limit the lifter's ability to drop the weights on themselves or anyone else. You can at least get used to feeling a load on your muscles in relative safety before you take to free weights and drop the bar on your foot, knee or neck...


...which is a bad idea, in my opinion. Better to just work with a weight you can handle, and let your muscles learn to work together the right way. Why do you want your primary muscles building faster than your stabilizer muscles? All that does is let you think you can handle something you can't and get yourself injured. Unless you're some nitwit who all he cares about is building some kind of Frankenbody of oversized parts that are useless when it comes to actual function.


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## Seawolf

P90X
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane

Drover said:


> ...which is a bad idea, in my opinion. Better to just work with a weight you can handle, and let your muscles learn to work together the right way. Why do you want your primary muscles building faster than your stabilizer muscles? All that does is let you think you can handle something you can't and get yourself injured. Unless you're some nitwit who all he cares about is building some kind of Frankenbody of oversized parts that are useless when it comes to actual function.


The only one where I would take real issue with your position is using the lat pulldown machine, to get to the point of being able to actually _do_ pullups / heaves. Assisted pullup machines aren't that common (and I'm not convinced they are a real "like for like" experience), and other alternatives like having a partner assist you are very difficult (in my experience) to do reproducibly or with a steady, controlled increase in load


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## Drover

Sawney Beane said:


> The only one where I would take real issue with your position is using the lat pulldown machine, to get to the point of being able to actually _do_ pullups / heaves. Assisted pullup machines aren't that common (and I'm not convinced they are a real "like for like" experience), and other alternatives like having a partner assist you are very difficult (in my experience) to do reproducibly or with a steady, controlled increase in load


Yeah, I get that one. And a lat pulldown is probably closer to an actual pullup than most machines are to a natural movement and uses muscle groups rather than really isolating anyway, unlike most machines.


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## mina

I was a competitive bodybuilder and power lifter (female) and just getting back into it (not to compete!) 

Stress and rest and good nutrition are the tripod. 

Stress = large muscle groups, low reps. think Bench, Squat, Deadlift if you simply want to add mass and strength. Everything else is just fine tuning and for sculpting. If you're just looking to "tone" - I don't know how to do that. Sorry! 

Rest = cycling your workouts appropriately, getting enough sleep and not wearing down your body with too much aerobics or anaerobic activity (they can eat muscle.) 

Good nutrition = no gimmicks, enough calories to build but not so much that you add fat: very low simple carbs, high protein, low/medium fat and medium complex carbs. 

This is the only recipe. How you tweak and flavor it for you is only for you to know.


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## occasionallybaffled

Seawolf said:


> P90X
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great program. For the typical (non-body builder) person, I am a firm believer in using what you already have (body weight) and moderate reistance/weights. Diet is and rest is crucial. Cheapest way to do it, is to find a program that has a nutritional plan built into it. Especially if you have the space in your home, it's more cost efficient than a gym membership. Truth is, there are so many ways and this is just one. The real key is you. You must be committed completely. Once you start taking days extra days off or sliding with your nutrition... it becomes easy to become more and more lax. 

What worked for me was to tell other people. Then, I didn't want to make myself look bad or lazy when they asked how my routine was going. Or find someone to work out with, sometimes the hardest thing is finding motivation when it's only you. Having someone to push you further and bring your competitive spirit out... can do wonders.


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## effess

thanks everyone for all the tips. 
My plan is to get started next week, once my work schedule gets back to normal.
I feel like I'm learning alot more about this subject, it is still somewhat confusing, because there are so many differing ideas about how to get started into this.
I have a fairly good idea about diet, and how I'm going to approach that. 
But I'm still confused about routine.
I'm excited about incorporating compound movements into my workout. 
However, I hear differing opinions about frequency. I read in some places 3x a week and off days rest. In other places I've read do some cardio, perhaps 20 minutes on your off days. Which seems counter-productive to bulking up according to my little understanding - but I'm hardly an expert. I've also read 5x a week, or every other day. 
My schedule works the best to workout M thru F, weekends would be MUCH harder to squeeze in workouts. 
So I'm submitting to people's wisdom here on frequency of workout days and rest days. Thanks!


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## mina

don't start with too much. 2-3 times a week of a full body workout would probably be good for a month or two. then split the full body into halves and do 3-4 times a week. if you get that far and are having great results split the body into 6 parts and do two parts a day (same session) and go 5-6 days a week. 

this is how I got back restarted. my start date was Feb 15th and I am at almost 5 months. starting this month will split into 6 parts with two parts per session and training 3 days on, one day off for the strength training. 

I am female so I do a lot of cardio too. guys should only do enough to help their cardiac system and keep the blood moving. probably 3 days a week something low impact like biking. no more than 30-40 minutes per session. if you want to build muscle.


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## Juicer

Working out 5x a week? Well, if you are doing a fair amount of cardio, or you are 18, or injecting something, yea, you can totally do that. 
But won't lie, working out at that volume, even on various...substances, will be a big stressor on the body. 

If you want to bulk, you figure out the routine and volume, that works for you, so the muscles you worked out are sore the next day. If they are sore, you know you did a good job. But know your limits, if they are sore for over a week, you over trained it.
And if you have excess body fat, or want to tone it down and get abs, you can do cardio maybe 1-2x a week. But if you aren't overweight, you probably don't want to do that. Too much cardio causes you to burn up your muscle gains.

One way I found out to get some good cardio into my life is I do a cardio workout week at least once a month. The last week of every month, I only do cardio workouts for most of the body. 
Also, if your body is dead the next day after cardio, you may want to tone it back. The goal of cardio is to make the muscle cells build more mitochondria, or get more efficient blood flows.


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## mina

"Working out 5x a week? Well, if you are doing a fair amount of cardio, or you are 18, or injecting something, yea, you can totally do that.
But won't lie, working out at that volume, even on various...substances, will be a big stressor on the body. "

Disagree ... Not if you are doing reasonable weights, at a medium set of reps and no more than 2 exercises at 3 sets each per body part. I am doing more than that now and am only switching to 3 days on 1 day off to decrease my time spent on working out in any one session. (I want to keep my training time under 1.25 hour including my cardio.) 

Most bodybuilders follow a 3 day split with two body parts worked per session and a rest day after all body parts have been worked. it's very efficient and it does not wear you down. that's how it's been designed.


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## effess

To clarify some I already have been going to the gym for a few years now and already have decent strength. However, my workouts have definitely not warranted the results I want - due to my own poor ideas of lifting and nutrition. Point being that I due have enough strength and stamina to handle more than your beginner workout.
I tend to gain weight easily, I'm definitely a endomorph. So I'd like to ideally workout more often, so I'm not just getting fat with the increased calorie/protein intake with my bulking up.


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## mina

if you've been doing a few years then you need a lot more help than you're going to get on a marriage board. find a weight training forum or body building forum or buy a good book.  IMO


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## effess

mina said:


> if you've been doing a few years then you need a lot more help than you're going to get on a marriage board. find a weight training forum or body building forum or buy a good book.  IMO


My focus is different. 
Before I was always after the mythical six-pack. So I always did this circuit-training/cardio workout with a low carb/low fat diet. When I was disciplined and stuck to it. During times when I knew I would be eating more (like the holiday season) I would do more lifting. I saw some improvement, I definitely toned up some, but still had alot more fat than I would like. 
Now, I'm trying to bulk up, put on alot of muscle - I've never really tried that before with a lot of knowledge behind it.


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## Machiavelli

What are you benching, deadlifting, and squating right now?


----------



## effess

Machiavelli said:


> What are you benching, deadlifting, and squating right now?


You will laugh, but I've never really attempted to max out. I don't have a workout partner besides my iPod. So I've always been reticent to find these benchmarks without a spotter.


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## Machiavelli

effess said:


> You will laugh, but I've never really attempted to max out. I don't have a workout partner besides my iPod. So I've always been reticent to find these benchmarks without a spotter.


1RM is a waste of time. What's your set weight for 10 or 12 controlled (low force, no momentum) reps?


----------



## effess

Machiavelli said:


> 1RM is a waste of time. What's your set weight for 10 or 12 controlled (low force, no momentum) reps?


I generally workout on machines or Hammer Strength.
Bench - 200 lb
Squat - 200 lb
Deadlift - 160 lb (_just_ started doing this recently)


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## Machiavelli

effess said:


> I generally workout on machines or Hammer Strength.
> Bench - 200 lb
> Squat - 200 lb
> Deadlift - 160 lb (_just_ started doing this recently)


It's a start. Hammer is good stuff. Designed by Gary Jones who invented the Nautilus cam when he was in Junior High. Work on increasing the reps. You want the weight light enough to do at least 8 reps, heavy enough to give out at around 12. You should be totally gassed at the end of the set. Once you do more than 12 reps, raise the weight with a 5 on each end next workout. Keep doing that. Progress in weight and/or reps every time.


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## ffp20

it was suggest to me to try "ladder reps", similar to eastern european training methods. this is where you do 1 rep, pause for a brief break, 2 reps, pause, 3 reps pause, 4 reps pause, etc with a weight where by the time i get to ten i'm gassed out. take a break then move to next circuit. this way i do more total weight with more reps at the end. been doing it for several weeks not and i do notice a sizable difference, especially with squats and presses.


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## effess

Whomever suggested on this thread to start watching the Hodge Twins I want to really thank them. 
These guys are informative, realistic and entertaining.


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## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> Whomever suggested on this thread to start watching the Hodge Twins I want to really thank them.
> These guys are informative, realistic and entertaining.



:iagree:

My wife hates them because they curse and use the F-word a lot.
However,the information they give in their vids have helped me a lot!:smthumbup:


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## effess

compound movements and rest time between workouts?

I have read alot about the benefits of compound movements vs isolated exercises. However, I also read how important it is to get rest on your muscles between workouts. 
I guess I am working on the assumption that there is a limited number of compound movements available to do - and you would have to repeat them fairly regularly. 
However, when I review suggested routines, I see a lot of Chest/Arms - Monday, shoulder/Back - Wednesday, etc., which in my eyes imply more isolated movements. 
Thanks ahead of time.


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## Juicer

effess said:


> Whomever suggested on this thread to start watching the Hodge Twins I want to really thank them.
> These guys are informative, realistic and entertaining.


That was me 

I don't agree with everything they say, but they do give some good advice, and make me laugh while they do it. 

But yea, they do cuss a lot. 
But at the end of the day, you can either listen to them, or go to the gym and do whatever the #$%& you wana do!


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## Drover

I disagree with most of this. You can easily workout 5x/week as long as you don't push to failure and keep your workouts brief. In fact I've always seen better results that way. Getting sore is not your goal, and not necessary. You probably will get sore when you start but lack of or presence of soreness is not a sign of a good workout.



Juicer said:


> Working out 5x a week? Well, if you are doing a fair amount of cardio, or you are 18, or injecting something, yea, you can totally do that.
> But won't lie, working out at that volume, even on various...substances, will be a big stressor on the body.
> 
> If you want to bulk, you figure out the routine and volume, that works for you, so the muscles you worked out are sore the next day. If they are sore, you know you did a good job. But know your limits, if they are sore for over a week, you over trained it.
> And if you have excess body fat, or want to tone it down and get abs, you can do cardio maybe 1-2x a week. But if you aren't overweight, you probably don't want to do that. Too much cardio causes you to burn up your muscle gains.
> 
> One way I found out to get some good cardio into my life is I do a cardio workout week at least once a month. The last week of every month, I only do cardio workouts for most of the body.
> Also, if your body is dead the next day after cardio, you may want to tone it back. The goal of cardio is to make the muscle cells build more mitochondria, or get more efficient blood flows.


----------



## effess

Juicer said:


> That was me
> 
> I don't agree with everything they say, but they do give some good advice, and make me laugh while they do it.
> 
> But yea, they do cuss a lot.
> But at the end of the day, you can either listen to them, or go to the gym and do whatever the #$%& you wana do!


Just curious what u disagree with? 
Their opinion on deadlifts seem off - but i can see the point in proper firm.
I dont know about the IF while bulking neither.


----------



## Juicer

They say you don't need a multivitamin. 
I think those are very beneficial. 

Their opinions on steroids and prohormones I personally think are a little skewed...then again I did pickle my liver on those.....
And I also understand they are appealing to high schoolers, and I don't want those kids thinking steroids/prohormones are the next best thing to take. 

Their opinion on dead lifts is accurate in my opinion. There are better ways to target those muscles, and let's be honest, how often will you have perfect form? Not that often, so don't think that perfect form means you are protected from injury.

And their opinions on certain supplements I think are a little wrong, but they all work differently. Mainly their opinions on certain pre workouts. They don't like stuff that has beta-alanine in it, but I do, in fairly large quantities. But that is just me.

But beyond that, I agree with most everything else that comes to mind.


----------



## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> compound movements and rest time between workouts?
> 
> I have read alot about the benefits of compound movements vs isolated exercises. However, I also read how important it is to get rest on your muscles between workouts.
> I guess I am working on the assumption that there is a limited number of compound movements available to do - and you would have to repeat them fairly regularly.
> However, when I review suggested routines, I see a lot of Chest/Arms - Monday, shoulder/Back - Wednesday, etc., which in my eyes imply more isolated movements.
> Thanks ahead of time.




Chest/Arms and Shoulder / Back are really supposed to read:
Chest / Triceps/ Shoulder - Monday and 

Back / Biceps / Traps - Wednesday

Legs / Abs - Friday.

These are actually upper / lower body splits that involved very little isolation movements. They are designed for mass building or bulking up.

This is an example:
On Monday [ Chest / Triceps / Delt. ]
Your exercises would be mostly, compound pushing movements or presses.
1]B.Bell Bench Press . [ Inc , Dec , or Flat.]
2]B.Bell Overhead [ Millitary ] press.
3] either a] *B.T.N Press b] Dumbbell Press c] D.B Reverse Flyes . [* The Behind The Neck press is a very tricky exercise and potentially dangerous. But if mastered,it works the front delts and the entire shoulder well.]

All the above except for the rev. flyes are 70 - 80 % 1RM compound movements done for at least 10 reps x 10 sets.

Only rest 60 - 90 seconds between sets,and at least 3 minutes between exercises.


----------



## Machiavelli

effess said:


> compound movements and rest time between workouts?
> 
> I have read alot about the benefits of compound movements vs isolated exercises. However, I also read how important it is to get rest on your muscles between workouts.
> I guess I am working on the assumption that there is a limited number of compound movements available to do - and you would have to repeat them fairly regularly.
> However, when I review suggested routines, I see a lot of Chest/Arms - Monday, shoulder/Back - Wednesday, etc., which in my eyes imply more isolated movements.
> Thanks ahead of time.


Ever heard of Mike Mentzer? He was one of the guys to advocate this type of split in his book Heavy Duty, which was designed for the non-steroid supplementing trainee.

Day 1 Chest/Shoulders/Triceps
Superset: Chest Flys/Incline Bench
Lateral Side Raises
Bent Over Dumbell Laterals
Superset: Triceps extensions/Dips

Day 2 Back/Biceps
Superset: Pullovers/Pulldowns/Barbell Row
Shrugs
Hyperextensions or Deadlift
Curls

Day 3 Legs/Abs
Superset: Leg Extension/Leg Press or Squat/ Leg Curls/Calf Raises
Situps or Crunches (machine or otherwise)

NO rest on the supersets. One set of each movement taken to momentary muscular failure if you have spotter or you're using machines. Or almost up to failure if you're solo on barbells. Each session is about 12-15 minutes with a 3/3 rep speed. Fail at 7-10 reps. 

Although I probably prefer all body routines for the most part, I'm currently using the machine version of this routine with the fail zone at 12-15 reps and a couple of other mods and I'm still getting stronger and adding muscle at age 55, and doing it with definitely reduced testosterone levels as compared to earlier years. You can start this 3X weekly until progress stops for a couple of weeks, then stretch out the rest times so you working out every 72 hours. And so on. Increased mass and strength does not mean reduced recovery time, just the opposite, so you need more rest.

You'll get pretty sore on this routine for the first few times. After three weeks, you won't get sore hardly at all.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> Chest/Arms and Shoulder / Back are really supposed to read:
> Chest / Triceps/ Shoulder - Monday and
> 
> Back / Biceps / Traps - Wednesday
> 
> Legs / Abs - Friday.
> 
> These are actually upper / lower body splits that involved very little isolation movements. They are designed for mass building or bulking up.
> 
> This is an example:
> On Monday [ Chest / Triceps / Delt. ]
> Your exercises would be mostly, compound pushing movements or presses.
> 1]B.Bell Bench Press . [ Inc , Dec , or Flat.]
> 2]B.Bell Overhead [ Millitary ] press.
> 3] either a] *B.T.N Press b] Dumbbell Press c] D.B Reverse Flyes . [* The Behind The Neck press is a very tricky exercise and potentially dangerous. But if mastered,it works the front delts and the entire shoulder well.]
> 
> All the above except for the rev. flyes are 70 - 80 % 1RM compound movements done for at least 10 reps x 10 sets.
> 
> Only rest 60 - 90 seconds between sets,and at least 3 minutes between exercises.


CM,
Very similar to Mentzer, heh? I used to be very big on the BTNP back 40 years ago. I was also a big one for pull to chins (aka upright row). Now they claim these are tough on the rotators. And I did come up with a rotator cuff tear about 10 years back, just from tossing a jacket into the back of my truck.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> CM,
> Very similar to Mentzer, heh? I used to be very big on the BTNP back 40 years ago. I was also a big one for pull to chins (aka upright row). Now they claim these are tough on the rotators. And I did come up with a rotator cuff tear about 10 years back, just from tossing a jacket into the back of my truck.


Yup.
Similar. 
Its actually one I got from a Vince Gironda GVT [ German Volume Training ] template , online.
Its a hybrid version.

I hardly do upright rows heavy because I had damaged my rotator cuff while bench pressing.[ Bad Form].
But it has completely healed.
But there are a bunch of guys going around saying this and that about exercises , biomechanics ,blah , blah, blah.:scratchhead:

Too much sissy talk!

Right now my left elbow is in pain because of " tennis elbow." I usually do heavy weighted pull ups , but I can only do bodyweight now. But it is healing and getting stronger, every day.
I have increased my intake of fish oil and flax.
I think my bad form and doing " kippling pul up" caused this problem. Not the exercise itself.


----------



## MAP

Juicer said:


> And if you have excess body fat, or want to tone it down and get abs, you can do cardio maybe 1-2x a week. But if you aren't overweight, you probably don't want to do that. *Too much cardio causes you to burn up your muscle gains.*


How much is too much to have worry about this muscle burn issue?


----------



## Drover

Machiavelli said:


> Ever heard of Mike Mentzer? He was one of the guys to advocate this type of split in his book Heavy Duty, which was designed for the non-steroid supplementing trainee.


Yeah. His "science" was retarded.


----------



## Drover

All this is way to complicated. All these body part splits are unnecessary and probably counterproductive. Just do a Mon/Wed/Fri rotation of:

Deadlift, Bench Press (5x5)
Squat, Overhead Press (5x5)

Vary your rest times 1-3 minutes between sets.


----------



## UpnDown

Anyone here take flaxseed or any omega 3?? I heard a few people talking about it a while back and figured I would ask.

The only things I take right now are Whey, Casein and powdered Glutamine.


----------



## Machiavelli

Drover said:


> Yeah. His "science" was retarded.


How do you figure?


----------



## Caribbean Man

UpnDown said:


> Anyone here take flaxseed or any omega 3?? I heard a few people talking about it a while back and figured I would ask.
> 
> The only things I take right now are Whey, Casein and powdered Glutamine.




Yes I use lots of ground flaxseed and omega [ fish oil caps]
I used to get lots of pain in my joints and I started using it.I works wonders.
I use the fish oil caps with my meals,I mix the ground flaxseed with my protein shakes in the blender.

2 fish oil caps with meals.
1 heaping tablespoon of ground flaxseed with my shake.


----------



## UpnDown

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes I use lots of ground flaxseed and omega [ fish oil caps]
> I used to get lots of pain in my joints and I started using it.I works wonders.
> I use the fish oil caps with my meals,I mix the ground flaxseed with my protein shakes in the blender.
> 
> 2 fish oil caps with meals.
> 1 heaping tablespoon of ground flaxseed with my shake.


Thanks for the response. I think I have old flaxseed pills around, but I may look for the ground flaxseed.


----------



## Drover

Machiavelli said:


> How do you figure?


First off he didn't even use his own theories when he was training for competition. That is pretty widely documented.

It's been awhile since I've read his stuff (and yes, back in the 80s I bought and tried his system), but as I recall according to his theory the perfect workout would involve doing only a single rep of each movement at 100% of 1RM then resting a few days. He did admit that wasn't really realistic so had you doing three reps as I recall. Basically he said to do as little as possible to stimulate muscle growth then rest. But it doesn't work that way. The amount of work is important. Muscles, and your central nervous system (which you also need to stimulate), need work. 

As I said, it's been awhile but I have used his system. And I got much better gains working THREE times a day EVERY day (which I'm not recommending anyone does or saying it's necessary) than I did with his methods. The reason is simple, more work. Very brief workouts done at significantly less than 1RM and never to failure allow you to do more work. Micro-cycling is also important. Cycle workouts day to day so you have hard, medium and easy days. You won't overtrain. 

BTW, look up Escalating Density Training. EDT is awesome.


----------



## Entropy3000

Drover said:


> All this is way to complicated. All these body part splits are unnecessary and probably counterproductive. Just do a Mon/Wed/Fri rotation of:
> 
> Deadlift, Bench Press (5x5)
> Squat, Overhead Press (5x5)
> 
> Vary your rest times 1-3 minutes between sets.


This WILL work.


----------



## Entropy3000

Machiavelli said:


> CM,
> Very similar to Mentzer, heh? I used to be very big on the BTNP back 40 years ago. I was also a big one for pull to chins (aka upright row). Now they claim these are tough on the rotators. And I did come up with a rotator cuff tear about 10 years back, just from tossing a jacket into the back of my truck.


I have loved BTNP and Upright Rows. Doing them for very long I can attribute to injuries. As you know a persons shoulder bone structure can vary. Some folks have greater chance of impingement than others.

When I do BTNP I will only do full ROM with lighter weights. If I do them heavy I do not take them this far. Some folks do Bradford Presses instead with low weight and high reps.


----------



## Entropy3000

First off emulating the routines of world class body builders is probably the biggest mistake that most of us have done in our lives. 

That said here is something from the elite segment in bodybuilding that promotes the use of the big lifts:

Johnnie Jackson and Branch Warren are Powerbuilding

Powerbuilding -- I have not picked this one up yet but I am thinking it might be interesting reading. 

Branch Warren, Ronnie Colman and Johnnie Jackson train at our local MetroFlex GYM.

These guys believe in doing heavy Deadlifts where many bodybuilders do none at all. Franco Columbu was one of those old school guys lifting heavy back in the day.

Deadlifts give a man a very thick and powerful upper body. They help in being "yoked". And yet we can look at the Deadlift as a lower body back movement. It is certainly the king of the posterior chain. 

Real folks not at this level do not need the type of volume these guys do. The rest of us get a lot out of those 5 x 5s and pyramid sets with three to five movements in a session. Typically if one just stays consistent they can still make great gains doing the priority lift of the day. i.e. Doing those heavy sets of Squats and get out of the gym. 

So hitting those days as Drover listed and doing only those lifts on those days would yield real results. Supplemental and accessory lifts do help but as WEndler says do not major in the minors. Get the most out of those first one or two movements of that session.

The standing Overhead Press works much of the whole body if done correctly. Yes it is an awesome builder of shoulders. But if you really give your all the days after you will feel this in your traps, your legs, upper chest and your abs as well as the shoulders. So even the muscular stabilizer and antagonist muscles get a workout. It has been said that only one in ten thousand men can Press their own weight. BTW this movement is important IMO for raw powerlifters.

The Bench Press if done correctly works the entire body to some extent. Your triceps are key here especially for locking out. The shoulders and lats get the bar off the chest. Sure you get some chest stimulus but this also stresses the lats and traps as one stabilizes for heavy weight.

The Squat has a huge hormonal impact on the body. Done correctly this is much more than a leg movement. It is a posterior chain movement. The emphasis changes as to how you perform the movement. i.e. Olympic or Powerlifter or in between. Front Squats are awesome. But heavy Back Squats demand a well trained CNS and fulle body effort.

Just these movements will stregthen ones core. I try to add in Ab Rollouts, Pallof Holds and Side Bends but the base I get from the above provide a strong base. When I use a belt for heavy Squats I am pushing out very hard on the belt. I rarely use a belt otherwise. Sometimes for Deadlift PRs. I wear the belt higher than many people do. In the old days when I did Olympic lifting the belt was much lower.


----------



## Machiavelli

Drover said:


> First off he didn't even use his own theories when he was training for competition. That is pretty widely documented.


Actually, Mentzer did use Mentzer methods when he was competing, but they were much, much higher volume in sets and frequency as opposed to the "Heavy Duty" format he came up with in the 90's, like a minimum of 4 days rest between work days. His first book, from '79, has some of the stuff he was doing at that time and it would be tough to make progress on that clean, after about age 25. Mentzer found that out when he started training clients who weren't "supplementing." Mentzer could do it because he was on every anabolic known to man.



Drover said:


> It's been awhile since I've read his stuff (and yes, back in the 80s I bought and tried his system), but as I recall according to his theory the perfect workout would involve doing only a single rep of each movement at 100% of 1RM then resting a few days. He did admit that wasn't really realistic so had you doing three reps as I recall. Basically he said to do as little as possible to stimulate muscle growth then rest. But it doesn't work that way. The amount of work is important. Muscles, and your central nervous system (which you also need to stimulate), need work.


Haha. Never read that 1RM in any of his books. I don't even remember 1RM being mentioned. Maybe he said it when he was institutionalized, or doing some blue sky theorizing. Now, he did advocate in print a 7-10 rep range to momentary failure, which would probably be about 70-80% 1RM, I suppose. As for the CNS, my personal take on that is after the neuro-muscular pathways are established for a particular exercise, that's all you need to worry about. I know CNS is a big buzzword these days, but I'm not a subscriber. 



Drover said:


> As I said, it's been awhile but I have used his system. And I got much better gains working THREE times a day EVERY day (which I'm not recommending anyone does or saying it's necessary) than I did with his methods.


As hard as I train, that would outstrip my 55 year old capacity to recover and rebuild muscle, unless I was getting "help." Even in my multi-set, not failure days, I never worked out with weights two consecutive days in my life, except in the 70's when I was doing 4 and 5 day splits. But I was at max testosterone in those days.



Drover said:


> The reason is simple, more work. Very brief workouts done at significantly less than 1RM and never to failure allow you to do more work. Micro-cycling is also important. Cycle workouts day to day so you have hard, medium and easy days. You won't overtrain.


I never use anything heavier than 80% and often go as low as 30%, when playing with 8X8 a la Gironda, or goofing around with some of the ideas Bass talks about. More work will work, but so will less work with greater intensity. I've done both high volume, low intensity and high intensity, low volume and made and achieved good results from both, up to a point. For natural trainees, by natural I mean no AAS, you may get more out of the high intensity side of things, but everybody is not going to respond the same to the same stimulus. Each trainee needs to find his optimal dose response, but the methodology is not nearly as important as the simple _doing._



Drover said:


> BTW, look up Escalating Density Training. EDT is awesome.


Will do. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Machiavelli

Entropy3000 said:


> First off emulating the routines of world class body builders is probably the biggest mistake that most of us have done in our lives.


I guess it can be done, if you have world class genes and world class drugs. I agree about the simple compounds.


----------



## Entropy3000

Machiavelli said:


> I guess it can be done, if you have world class genes and world class drugs. I agree about the simple compounds.


Surely it can with the genes as you say, but also these guys are juicing.

BUT, my main pioint has more to do with the stage that someone is at.

Novice --> Intermediate --> Advanced --> Elite

Most of us will spend our live in the Novice / Intermediate range. Doing programs that are optimized for these levels is likely to lead to the bes training economy. A novice can make gains doing almost anything. 

Advanced trainers are much closer to their genetic potential so they are required to do training sessions to inch closer to their genetic potential. Where as we would overtrain by doing those same routines which is a negative. They have already built a great base of fundamental limit strength so they can maintain this to a great amount and focus on bringing up their weaknesses. So the way they train is what they need. Yes we can learn from them of course. But the biggest lesson is how they got to where they are now, not what they do now that they have it. Many of them started out powerlifting and doing 5 x 5s for many years.


----------



## Entropy3000

Rows are good. Lightweight baby!!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Entropy3000 said:


> I have loved BTNP and Upright Rows. Doing them for very long I can attribute to injuries. *As you know a persons shoulder bone structure can vary. Some folks have greater chance of impingement than others.*
> 
> When I do BTNP I will only do full ROM with lighter weights. If I do them heavy I do not take them this far. Some folks do Bradford Presses instead with low weight and high reps.




Excellent post.
I can do BTN presses very heavy and I don't get any impingement! I just don't go right down,I stop middway behind my head.
Funny thing is,that I got my rotator cuff slightly damaged long before I started BTN presses. I was doing bench presses [ gillotine press] to the neck...
My shoulder structure is such that my anterior delt is very dominant and strong. Median and prosterior are also strong.
Bradford presses are uncomfortable for me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> I guess it can be done,* if you have world class genes *and world class drugs. I agree about the simple compounds.



:iagree:

This was one of my early mistakes. I followed some of those routines in those bodybuilding magazines like Flex etc.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This was one of my early mistakes. I followed some of those routines in those bodybuilding magazines like Flex etc.


Since about 65, all those magazine routines assume you're using "supplements" and I don't mean the ones advertised in the magazine. Plus, a lot of those routines were bogus in the sense that the bodybuilder/author never saw a word of those articles unless they happened to look at the mag after it came out.


----------



## Machiavelli

Entropy3000 said:


> Advanced trainers are much closer to their genetic potential so they are required to do training sessions to inch closer to their genetic potential. Where as we would overtrain by doing those same routines which is a negative.


Aside from muscle/tendon ratios, testosterone levels pretty much rule on how much muscle mass you can build, repair, and maintain. I would say that anyone who has been lifting consistently for 3 years, has probably achieved about 85% of what they're ever going to be able to do. At that point, they have to decide whether or not to raise testosterone via exogenous sources. Aside from anabolics, eating is a huge issue. People have no concept about how much is actually required to be eaten when trying to grow muscle. I always emphasize to young men that they must eat 4,000 - 4,500 cals daily to get any mass. Those who don't eat, don't grow.



Entropy3000 said:


> ...Many of them started out powerlifting and doing 5 x 5s for many years.


This could well be true for the current crop of freaks. I haven't paid much attention since the 1980 Olympia debacle, which pretty much proved competitive bodybuilding was less honest than pro "rasslin'". Although, they do use many of the same suppliers.


----------



## Machiavelli

Entropy3000 said:


> Rows are good. Lightweight baby!!


Yes, they are. Plus, that guy is ALL NATURAL!


----------



## effess

Just wanted everyone to know that I started today!!
I'm fighting a bit of a stomach bug so the eating thing has been uncomfortable, but I today is day 1 to a new me!!!
Thanks everyone for the tips, answers and suggestions. I've on-boarded alot that I've read here and welcome all the advice and motivation that can be provided. 

Thanks again and I'll be visiting this thread often for new suggestions and with my own updates.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, they are. Plus, that guy is ALL NATURAL!



:rofl:

"Everybody wants to get big,but aint nobody want to lift no heavy a$$ irons.." - Ronnie Coleman

" Light Weight Baby "- Ronnie Coleman


----------



## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> Just wanted everyone to know that I started today!!
> I'm fighting a bit of a stomach bug so the eating thing has been uncomfortable, but I today is day 1 to a new me!!!
> Thanks everyone for the tips, answers and suggestions. I've on-boarded alot that I've read here and welcome all the advice and motivation that can be provided.
> 
> Thanks again and I'll be visiting this thread often for new suggestions and with my own updates.




Best wishes,and remember persistence does it.
Keep walking.


----------



## Drover

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This was one of my early mistakes. I followed some of those routines in those bodybuilding magazines like Flex etc.


Haha...I think EVERYONE starts that way.


----------



## effess

Caribbean Man said:


> Best wishes,and remember persistence does it.
> Keep walking.


Thanks im still nervous about getting a huge gut! But thanks all tips!


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> Best wishes,and remember *persistence does it.*
> Keep walking.


Correct. Just about any "system" will do if you just stick with it.


----------



## Machiavelli

effess said:


> Thanks im still nervous about getting a huge gut! But thanks all tips!


why would you get a huge gut?


----------



## effess

Machiavelli said:


> why would you get a huge gut?


Im exaggerating for effect. my being is Im nervous about overall weight gain ie straight fat. i put on weight very easy. but i understand its inevitable w this bulking program.


----------



## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> Im exaggerating for effect. my being is Im nervous about overall weight gain ie straight fat. *i put on weight very easy. but i understand its inevitable w this bulking program.*




Stop worrying about getting a big gut during bulking.
Go hard and heavy,and your metabolism will increase. 
If you are not training hard , do not increase your calorific intake!
If you are training hard,you will naturally feel hungry at random times. Feed your body with the right [ clean] calories and you will not have an " excess fat" problem.


----------



## effess

What's the right balance of carbs/fats/protein? Right now Im at a 40/30/40 split.
Also how important is the timing of meals? I get alot of protein in before and after i workout but the the majority of my carbs are in the afternoon and evening.


----------



## Juicer

The big gut thing you are worrying about, is the HGH gut. 
Professionals that take HGH help them recover, but it also makes their muscles, organs, bones, everything grow. So their organs in their gut grow, and press up agianst their rib cage, and pushes out their gut. They have a beer gut, that is ripped. 

As for your timing of meals, this is how I time mine:
Breakfast is important. Get some vitamins, some fruit, some protein like eggs, and that is good. And some morning creatine is always good.
Then lunch. Again some protein, and carbs, maybe some vegetables. 
Then your pre-workout. If you take pre-workouts that have caffeine in them, take them now. Also, anything called Nitric-oxide is a BS product. Take your creatine if you are trying creatine.
Then you take a post-workout. Something with protein, like whey and maybe some egg protein if you can factor it in. And it also helps to take some creatine, again if you are on it. 
Then you have your evening meal. I usually down some more protein, and take some vegetables, some other stuff like that. Make sure you get your nutrients. 
Then later in the night, if you take the casein shake, take that, and maybe some yogurt, some good food. 

As for if you get on creatine, if you ever try it, only take Creatine Monohydrate. That is the kind that has several years of study, is shown to work. I would suggest micronized Creatine powder from Optimum Nutrition. I find taking it with juices, like grape, orange, apple, is best. But if you want, it is tasteless, so you can mix it into your protein shakes if you take those. 

Again, this is all just a suggestion. You don't have to follow it. You can do, whatever the #$%* you wana do!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Juicer said:


> Again, this is all just a suggestion. You don't have to follow it. *You can do, whatever the #$%* you wana do!*



:rofl::rofl::rofl:


Hodge twins anthem!


----------



## Drover

effess said:


> What's the right balance of carbs/fats/protein? Right now Im at a 40/30/40 split.
> Also how important is the timing of meals? I get alot of protein in before and after i workout but the the majority of my carbs are in the afternoon and evening.


The truth is there are an infinite number of good diets out there. I've used Lyle MacDonald's low-carb stuff and actually gained weight and gotten pretty ripped. I've used higher carb, eat every X hours and gained weight and gotten ripped. Right now I'm on "The Warrior Diet" which is intermittent fasting, meaning you don't eat anything from dinner until lunch the next day. It's how I naturally eat anyway so it seems very natural for me and I'm doing great on it. Weight has stayed the same while my bodyfat has dropped by 4% in a little over a week.


----------



## chillymorn

this is a long thread ......

the bottom line is JUST DO IT!

anything is better than nothing and alter your plan as you go read your body and listen to it.

just remember what they say about opinions....there like a$$holes everybody has one and there all cracked!


----------



## Caribbean Man

effess said:


> What's the right balance of carbs/fats/protein? Right now Im at a 40/30/40 split.
> Also how important is the timing of meals? I get alot of protein in before and after i workout but the the majority of my carbs are in the afternoon and evening.




Man,
Stop worrying about all of that , just eat until you feel like puking.
DON'T EAT JUNK. EAT CLEAN CALORIES.
Veggie - Eat plenty [ especially raw.]
Fish - Eat plenty,especially Salmon and Tuna.
Meats - Eat plenty LEAN meats.
Eggs - Eat Plenty. Start with 1/2 doz per day,and work upwards.
Yams - Eat Plenty.
Milk - Start with 1 litre / day.
Brown Rice - Yes
Flax Seed - Yes
Water - Drink Plenty.

Go to the gym and lift HEAVY. Stick with the basics,stick with compounds.

Get PLENTY of sleep. at least 8 hours.

In three months time everybody will be able to tell the difference.


----------



## markgl

actually, the consumption of animal products- including eggs, dairy and fish- not only contributes to horrific cruelty and suffering and environmental devastation it also is extremely unhealthy and unnecessary.

Strength Through Compassion: Vegan Bodybuilding - Advocacy For Animals

Forks Over Knives | Synopsis

MeatVideo.com - The video the meat industry doesn't want you to see.


----------



## Drover

markgl said:


> actually, the consumption of animal products- including eggs, dairy and fish- not only contributes to horrific cruelty and suffering and environmental devastation it also is extremely unhealthy and unnecessary.
> 
> Strength Through Compassion: Vegan Bodybuilding - Advocacy For Animals
> 
> Forks Over Knives | Synopsis
> 
> MeatVideo.com - The video the meat industry doesn't want you to see.


:rofl:


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## entrada

Caribbean Man said:


> Man,
> Stop worrying about all of that , just eat until you feel like puking.
> DON'T EAT JUNK. EAT CLEAN CALORIES.
> Veggie - Eat plenty [ especially raw.]
> Fish - Eat plenty,especially Salmon and Tuna.
> Meats - Eat plenty LEAN meats.
> Eggs - Eat Plenty. Start with 1/2 doz per day,
> 
> eating eggs this much is not friendly to the heart. You could try some soy if you like, its protein content is high.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## markgl

Drover said:


> :rofl:


not sure what is so amusing about the horrendous suffering of non-human animals and the destruction of the environment, not to mention by far the leading cause of disease in humans. 

perhaps you should read the articles and watch the video's so you can become more informed about the pain and misery that your choices cause others.


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## chillymorn

markgl said:


> not sure what is so amusing about the horrendous suffering of non-human animals and the destruction of the environment, not to mention by far the leading cause of disease in humans.
> 
> perhaps you should read the articles and watch the video's so you can become more informed about the pain and misery that your choices cause others.


something needs to die for life to go on.no way around it.the key is to be respectfull and not wastefull.

JMHO


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## Drover

entrada said:


> You could try some soy if you like, its protein content is high.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes try soy if you actually want to lower your testosterone levels while you're trying to add muscle?


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## Drover

markgl said:


> not sure what is so amusing about the horrendous suffering of non-human animals and the destruction of the environment, not to mention by far the leading cause of disease in humans.
> 
> perhaps you should read the articles and watch the video's so you can become more informed about the pain and misery that your choices cause others.


:rofl:


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## Drover

By the way, there are good & bad fats. But even bad fats are good when ingested in reasonable quantities. Fat is your friend. Don;t believe all the crap about fat being bad for you. Steroids & drugs aside FAT is the best anabolic you'll find. And FAT doesn't convert directly to fat in your body. Actually carbs convert to fat in your body much more readily than fat does. And a high protein, high fat diet has actually been shown to REDUCE bad cholesterol. Look it up.


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## Caribbean Man

entrada said:


> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man,
> Stop worrying about all of that , just eat until you feel like puking.
> DON'T EAT JUNK. EAT CLEAN CALORIES.
> Veggie - Eat plenty [ especially raw.]
> Fish - Eat plenty,especially Salmon and Tuna.
> Meats - Eat plenty LEAN meats.
> Eggs - Eat Plenty. Start with 1/2 doz per day,
> 
> *eating eggs this much is not friendly to the heart. You could try some soy if you like, its protein content is high.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A]Soy Protein = Estrogen = Female Hormone=Breasts & Hips
> 
> B]Eggs Protein = Testosterone = Male Hormone= Hard Muscles & Full Erections
Click to expand...


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## markgl

Drover said:


> Yes try soy if you actually want to lower your testosterone levels while you're trying to add muscle?


you should really check your facts before posting:

"Soy foods contain estrogen and men who eat them may experience feminization or even impair their fertility.

Not true. Soy foods do not contain estrogen, although they do contain isoflavone phytochemicals that fall in the “phytoestrogen” or “plant” estrogen grouping. Clinical evidence indicates that soy foods do not feminize men, lower their testosterone levels or lower their sperm concentration. Soy foods may actually offer men specifically several health benefits. For example, evidence suggests soy foods may be protective against prostate cancer."

Four Soy Food Myths Exposed « Healthy Recipe Doctor


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## markgl

chillymorn said:


> something needs to die for life to go on.no way around it.the key is to be respectfull and not wastefull.
> 
> JMHO


the "something" that needs to die is in the case of an animal actually a "someone" and not a thing at all. plants which cannot feel pain can be consumed instead of sentient beings who suffer and die just like you & i do. i'm not sure how one can "respectfully" kill a young healthy being that only wants to live. i certainly would not want to be "respected" in that manner so i do not contribute to it being done to others-this is known as the Golden Rule and should be followed despite the species of the animal involved.


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## Drover

markgl said:


> you should really check your facts before posting:
> 
> "Soy foods contain estrogen and men who eat them may experience feminization or even impair their fertility.
> 
> Not true. Soy foods do not contain estrogen, although they do contain isoflavone phytochemicals that fall in the “phytoestrogen” or “plant” estrogen grouping. Clinical evidence indicates that soy foods do not feminize men, lower their testosterone levels or lower their sperm concentration. Soy foods may actually offer men specifically several health benefits. For example, evidence suggests soy foods may be protective against prostate cancer."
> 
> Four Soy Food Myths Exposed « Healthy Recipe Doctor


I love how the same website you cite also has articles that recommend women ingest soy for the estrogen.


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## markgl

Caribbean Man said:


> entrada said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A]Soy Protein = Estrogen = Female Hormone=Breasts & Hips
> 
> B]Eggs Protein = Testosterone = Male Hormone= Hard Muscles & Full Erections
> 
> 
> 
> PUBMED: "Clinical studies show No Effects of Soy proteinor isoflavones on reproductive hormones in men" Clinical studies show no effects of soy protei... [Fertil Steril. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> NIH ANALYSIS: "Soybean isoflavone exposure does Not have feminizing effects on men"
> Soybean isoflavone exposure does not have femi... [Fertil Steril. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> METASTUDY: "Review finds no effect of soy ontestosterone. A review of 15 studies into the influence of soy proteins or isoflavones on male hormones has foundno evidence of an estrogen-like effect."
> Review finds no effect of soy on testosterone
Click to expand...


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## Drover

markgl said:


> the "something" that needs to die is in the case of an animal actually a "someone" and not a thing at all. plants which cannot feel pain can be consumed instead of sentient beings who suffer and die just like you & i do. i'm not sure how one can "respectfully" kill a young healthy being that only wants to live. i certainly would not want to be "respected" in that manner so i do not contribute to it being done to others-this is known as the Golden Rule and should be followed despite the species of the animal involved.


:rofl:

FWIW I'll mention you to my buddies over a beer when we're sitting around the campfire laughing after a long day of shooting doves, ducks, deer, hogs or whatever critter we've been hunting that day.


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## markgl

Drover said:


> I love how the same website you cite also has articles that recommend women ingest soy for the estrogen.


perhaps the ones above are more to your liking but they all say the same thing.


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## markgl

Drover said:


> :rofl:
> 
> FWIW I'll mention you to my buddies over a beer when we're sitting around the campfire laughing after a long day of shooting doves, ducks, deer, hogs or whatever critter we've been hunting that day.


you sound like a wonderful person to get such enjoyment out of the death and suffering of others who are helpless to prevent you from harming them.


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## Drover

markgl said:


> perhaps the ones above are more to your liking but they all say the same thing.



Did you even read what you posted? One of them basically says; we did a Google search and couldn't find a study that shows what we didn't want to find. Another one says none of the results measured results beyond 3 months, and it doesn't give any information about how many men, how much soy they ingested or any other of these studies' criteria.

Finally the last one says they basically chose to ignore the studies that don't show what they want them to for various reasons, but don;t tell you anything about the studies that tell what they want them to.


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## Drover

markgl said:


> you sound like a wonderful person to get such enjoyment out of the death and suffering of others who are helpless to prevent you from harming them.


Plus I know what tastes good. Don't forget that. :smthumbup:


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## markgl

Drover said:


> Plus I know what tastes good. Don't forget that. :smthumbup:


"Why don’t I hunt? I could allude to the fruits of exhaustive research into the ecological and biological consequences of hunting, and to collective insights of biologists, ecologists, and naturalists who challenge the prevailing wildlife-management dogma. Yet, fundamentally, the answer can be expressed in simple moral terms: Hunting is wrong, and should be acknowledged to be so not only by those who espouse the strict precepts of the animal-rights credo, but by those who hold a common sense of decency, respect, and justice. *When we have exposed the specious reasoning of the hunters’ apologists and stripped their sport of its counterfeit legitimacy, the naked brutality of hunting defines itself: killing for the fun of it. *"–Steve Ruggeri


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## markgl

Drover said:


> Did you even read what you posted? One of them basically says; we did a Google search and couldn't find a study that shows what we didn't want to find. Another one says none of the results measured results beyond 3 months, and it doesn't give any information about how many men, how much soy they ingested or any other of these studies' criteria.
> 
> Finally the last one says they basically chose to ignore the studies that don't show what they want them to for various reasons, but don;t tell you anything about the studies that tell what they want them to.


"CONCLUSION(S):The intervention data indicate that isoflavones do not exert feminizing effects on men at intake levels equal to and even considerably higher than are typical for Asian males."

"CONCLUSION(S):The results of this meta-analysis suggest that neither soy foods nor isoflavone supplements alter measures of bioavailable T concentrations in men."

"Review finds no effect of soy on testosterone"


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## markgl

"Myth: Soy lowers testosterone levels. 
Scientific Fact: Good research proves that soy protein will not affect your testosterone levels."

"Myth: Soy protein is a low-quality protein compared to dairy or egg protein. Now we also know that soy is very effective for promoting muscle growth. One study presented at a 2006 Experimental Biology meeting reported that bodybuilders taking a soy protein shake twice a day for 12 weeks gained an equivalent amount of muscle mass as those taking a whey protein shake twice a day. A 2004 Ohio State University study found that trained men consuming 33 g of soy or whey protein from a protein bar for nine weeks significantly and similarly increased their muscle mass. 
Scientific Fact: Soy protein boosts muscle growth as effectively as whey protein does."

"Myth: Soy can’t offer the muscle-building benefits that whey can. 
Scientific Fact: Soy protein boosts NO levels and recovery, and thus muscle growth."

Muscle & Body Magazine


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## Drover

markgl said:


> Muscle & Body Magazine


Consider the source.


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## Drover

You kinda missed the point. If I go out and ask three 6 year olds and call it a study, but don't tell you how the study was actually conducted, then said:

CONCLUSION: Anyone named mark is stupid! 

It doesn't really make it so, particularly if what I was trying to prove is that anyone named mark is stupid.


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## Drover

markgl said:


> "Why don’t I hunt? I could allude to the fruits of exhaustive research into the ecological and biological consequences of hunting, and to collective insights of biologists, ecologists, and naturalists who challenge the prevailing wildlife-management dogma. Yet, fundamentally, the answer can be expressed in simple moral terms: Hunting is wrong, and should be acknowledged to be so not only by those who espouse the strict precepts of the animal-rights credo, but by those who hold a common sense of decency, respect, and justice. *When we have exposed the specious reasoning of the hunters’ apologists and stripped their sport of its counterfeit legitimacy, the naked brutality of hunting defines itself: killing for the fun of it. *"–Steve Ruggeri


Yeah, hate to tell you this but long before any of the tree hugging wackadoodles took up the cause of saving the environment, guess who was doing it? Hunters. Even the left-leaning National Geographic has recognized that hunters spend more than nearly anyone on ecological efforts. 

And just because some nutjob (and yeah, Steve Ruggeri is a nutjob) says an activity is wrong, because he doesn't understand it or chooses to ignore its foundation, doesn't make it so. 

If someone says, it's wrong that the sky is blue it doesn't make it so.

Well this has been fun. But we're kinda just a little off topic here so let's just agree to disagree and go away friends huh?


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## markgl

Drover said:


> Yeah, hate to tell you this but long before any of the tree hugging wackadoodles took up the cause of saving the environment, guess who was doing it? Hunters. Even the left-leaning National Geographic has recognized that hunters spend more than nearly anyone on ecological efforts.
> 
> And just because some nutjob* (and yeah, Steve Ruggeri is a nutjob)* says an activity is wrong, because he doesn't understand it or chooses to ignore its foundation, doesn't make it so.
> 
> If someone says, it's wrong that the sky is blue it doesn't make it so.
> 
> Well this has been fun. But we're kinda just a little off topic here so let's just agree to disagree and go away friends huh?


Ad Hominem logical fallacy- Attacking the individual instead of the argument.
who is the real "nut job" anyway- the person who spends his life protecting the helpless against death and misery or the one who delights in causing death and misery to other sentient beings for their own personal gratification? if you shoot a dog, it is considered animal cruelty and if you shoot a deer it is considered an acceptable hobby. this is the definition of speciesism and similar justification has been used for all other violent actions from genocide to human slavery to the Jewish Holocaust. the view of a violent action is quite different from the perspective of the victim as opposed to the one of the perpetrator. 

“In their behavior toward creatures, all men are Nazis. Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought.” ― Isaac Bashevis Singer

“The establishment of the common origin of all species logically involves a readjustment of altruistic morals, by enlarging the application of what has been called the Golden Rule from the area of mere mankind to that of the whole animal kingdom.” -Thomas Hardy

“A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral.” --Leo Tolstoy


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## chillymorn

markgl said:


> "Myth: Soy lowers testosterone levels.
> Scientific Fact: Good research proves that soy protein will not affect your testosterone levels."
> 
> "Myth: Soy protein is a low-quality protein compared to dairy or egg protein. Now we also know that soy is very effective for promoting muscle growth. One study presented at a 2006 Experimental Biology meeting reported that bodybuilders taking a soy protein shake twice a day for 12 weeks gained an equivalent amount of muscle mass as those taking a whey protein shake twice a day. A 2004 Ohio State University study found that trained men consuming 33 g of soy or whey protein from a protein bar for nine weeks significantly and similarly increased their muscle mass.
> Scientific Fact: Soy protein boosts muscle growth as effectively as whey protein does."
> 
> "Myth: Soy can’t offer the muscle-building benefits that whey can.
> Scientific Fact: Soy protein boosts NO levels and recovery, and thus muscle growth."
> 
> Muscle & Body Magazine


there is no such beast as good research! let me repeat that there is no such beast as good research.

all research is based on finding results and if your results don't produce answers you don't get any more research money.

and all researchers pick and choise what to put in their study and what to exclude.

I find that comon sense goes along way.

really who didn't know that smoking was bad you would have to be an idiot to think it wasn't harmfull.

eating all kinds of processed food and drinking pop and diet pop.come on everybody should know whats healthy and whats not by now.

I'll even go as far as to say lifting weights and building too much extra muscel is unhealthy in the long run . for optium health and longevety there needs to be a balance to much one way or the other and you won't maximize your time here on earth.


its nice to be strong with big muscels but eating more protein than you need makes your liver and kidneys work harder and extra muscel make your heart work harder. not to mention you can only keep it up for so long and then you very well could be stuck with too much extra weight as you age.

I went through the I want to lift a house mode for years. it was fun being so strong. but in my opinion too much of anything is bad. 


animals are not people. 

see theres this thing call a food chain and we are at the top. which means we eat things below us.and for thousands of years people survived by eating animals. our bodies are designed for eating flesh and hunting. 

Its cool that you decided to take a different aproach but pushing your very new idea about what we should eat ......

nevermind....... lets agree to disagree. its really not worth the effort.


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## Caribbean Man

Good Post.


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## Entropy3000

entrada said:


> Caribbean Man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man,
> Stop worrying about all of that , just eat until you feel like puking.
> DON'T EAT JUNK. EAT CLEAN CALORIES.
> Veggie - Eat plenty [ especially raw.]
> Fish - Eat plenty,especially Salmon and Tuna.
> Meats - Eat plenty LEAN meats.
> Eggs - Eat Plenty. Start with 1/2 doz per day,
> 
> eating eggs this much is not friendly to the heart. You could try some soy if you like, its protein content is high.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> 
> 
> Eggs are awesome. Soy I absolutely avoid like the plague.
Click to expand...


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## 40isthenew20

It's a simple theory: exercise + protein - (bad) carbs = quality muscle. 

Concentrate on eating good carbs such as sweet potatoes and brown rice and be sure to perform at least 45 minutes of cardio three times per week in addition to weight training. 

If you're over 35, have your testosterone levels checked with a blood test at your doctor's office. Most likely, they will be in the lower percentile and he'll put you on a HRT program. Then you'll notice the muscle gains and fat loss even more so. 

Oh, yeah - Vitamin "T" is better than Viagra. Enjoy...


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## Machiavelli

The easiest, healthiest way to eat is like my ancestors ate. They walked around with a stick with a flint spearhead on it. If they could stab it, spear it, knock it out of a tree, or root it out of the ground with that stick, it was on the menu. If you need to process it, grind it, ferment it, etc, it shouldn't be on your menu. Wheat (basically a slow acting poison), sugar (ditto), soy (highly estrogenic), rice, barley, corn, etc are not really fit for human consumption. All must be heavily processed to be made palatable, except for corn. Load up on fruit, vegetables, fish, eggs, animals, raw milk, and birds. Eat like an *****.


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## effess

Just wanted to give an update on how things are going for me as the OP of this thread.

Its been about a month now since Ive started. I've been eating clean (for the most part), but my weight hasn't really changed since Day 1. I know I'm going to have to start eating more, even though my wife is already complaining my new "lifestyle" is getting expensive and difficult to keep up with (she does the shopping/cooking since I work alot more hours than she does). 
I've also noticed minimal strength gains, but I suspect I'm just not pushing myself enough since I've always had the bad habit of not going to TMF on every set. Not saying I don't, but just not consistently, I definitely feel like I don't experience the type of soreness I associate with a great workout.
Probably need to sleep better too.

That's the bad news. Good news is though I've already had some comments on my physique is looking bigger (extended family who hasn't seen me in awhile), my wife as also said I looked more "toned" even though that's not exactly what I'm going for. 

Again, I'm just starting off and have never really done anything like this, especially so much knowledge and motivation behind it. Its a learning experience from everyone I've read/heard from, and I have to adjust until I see results. 

In short, I've noticed positive changes to my physique, but in more objective measurables, I've noticed little to no change.


----------

