# Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse?



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

So, I saw something mentioned in another thread about a spouse having the right to refuse their spouse sex. Personally, I cringe at this kind of talk. To me it sounds very selfish. Yeah, your body is yours and, to a certain point, I agree that we have the right to say no to sex when it's offered....but at the same time, I don't. On my wedding day my husband vowed to love and cherish me. I expected that this love and cherishing would be an _every day_ thing. He wouldn't wake up one morning and decide, "I want a break from loving her today, so I'm going to say no when she asks for some cuddle time." Likewise, I vowed to love and cherish my husband and he expected that it would an _every day_ thing. 

I'm not saying that sex needs to happen everyday for every couple. Frequency should be decided by the couple. But love and intimacy of some kind, in my opinion, should be happening every day. Seeing our bodies as our own domain, as if our spouses need to ask permission before they dare to cross the threshhold, is something my husband and I disagree with entirely. He touch me wherever, whenever(for the most part. Certain time of the month excepted). 

So, what about everyone else? Do you think you have the "right" to say no to sex and other forms of intimacy any time you wish?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I believe everyone has the right to say no to intimacy no matter what their relationship status is. I would be upset if my partner didn't want to have sex with me but did anyway. I only want to have sex with my partner when she wants to have sex with me.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I believe everyone has the right to say no to intimacy no matter what their relationship status is. I would be upset if my partner didn't want to have sex with me but did anyway. I only want to have sex with my partner when she wants to have sex with me.


So, when she's not in the mood do you just leave it at that? You don't try and pursue her? I'm not saying you're wrong at all, each couple is different, I'm just trying to understand.

I have a HD most of the time, but I don't normally feel "ready" until he's physically with me at home. He could ask me at any random point in the day, "You wanna have sex?" and my answer will be "No." If, however, he were to kiss me, rub my shoulders, and all that good stuff...I'd get in the mood really quick. There's never an "off limits" in our relationship. Never has been, I hope and pray to God there never will be.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Yes, I think for some of us health issues get in the way. It's not that I don't want to because I really do. It's because my body will not allow it. It's extremely frustrating especially since my drive is so high. Severe pain will some times take over.:/


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Yes, I think for some of us health issues get in the way. It's not that I don't want to because I really do. It's because my body will not allow it. It's extremely frustrating especially since my drive is so high. Severe pain will some times take over.:/


I should have clarified. I understand there are often medical reasons that hinder frequent sex. I mean in a physically healthy relationship where both partners can have sex, do the spouses have the right to reject each other?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Usually I pout a bit first.  

But seriously...I respect the fact she's not in the mood for whatever reason and look forward to another time. It's not difficult to get her in the mood if I plan ahead. She wants to feel wanted and loves sex. Being nice to her throughout the day or in the morning before leaving for work (i.e. nice hugs and kisses...suggestive comments...the dreaded 'talking about our days' etc.) will make for a good chance she'll be in the mood that evening.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

When my husband is really stressed he'll give me a raincheck. This doesn't happen often, but instead of full denial we use rainchecks. I do feel frustrated, but I give him the same respect he gave me and I find something to keep my mind occupied.

To deny week after week or day after day to once a year is absolutely insane. I do understand how important this is to a man/woman, but I wasn't always so understanding as far as how a man felt about it. I actually was clueless on the level of importance this was while our children were young and I was exhausted. I do think there are other women that don't understand. Is it selfish? It depends. I don't know where you draw the line. My husband would stick with me if we were having sex or not. It's important, but not at the top of his list. 

I see some people complain that they are only having sex 2-3 times a week. I guess it depends on the couple and what is discussed before or even during their marriage. I have no issues bringing this up to my husband if there were a problem. We are very good at communicating our needs and how they need to be met.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Actually, unless there is illness or a health issue, a spouse that REJECTS another spouse, and does it repeatedly is guilty of passive-agressive behavior and control issues.

When you marry or are in a committed relationship and are living together and sleeping in the same room/bed, then it is implied that intimacy and sexual contact are part of the agreement. If a spouse and/or SO does not want to be a part of that "unsaid" agreement, then they need to find someone who feels the same way.

I believe it's the lowest form of abuse, and yes, it is abuse and considered emotional abuse and is totally unacceptable.

And I hate to say this, but it appears that more WOMEN are playing this game than men (though I do know men are an issue too, just read my past threads). It's a bait and switch situation and it's shameful and unacceptable in my book.

You don't like sex - no problem - stay single, don't get married or hook some poor unsuspecting guy into believing you're the next big porn star and then all of a sudden become a prude after the ring is on the finger.

Sometimes I don't like my own kind very much and this is a good example.

So bottom line - NO - unless there are health or illness issues--your spouse deserves intimacy with you, if you don't want to give it, then leave.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Of course everyone retains the right to say no. Marriage doesn't mean you give up all rights to your body and to your mental and emotional well-being.

If you are repeatedly and regularly saying no, however, that points to deeper problems in your relationship that need to be addressed.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Our agreement is that we have the right to suggest another time for whatever valid reason- But we won't KEEP putting eachother off, no bueno!

My husband will not be into a particular sex session of he feels I'm not into it. He doesnt push me- he'll get suggestive & make his moves, but won't be hurt if I ask if we hold off a bit. 

Generally we have good frequency/quality, so asking for a raincheck is totally acceptable for both of us. We aren't obsessive about it- I am not going to try & seduce him for more than a few minutes or get irritated if he clearly says "babe, I'm exhausted.." that's just silly to me, even if I'm super horny, I can wait & that has certainly happened! Lol! His feelings are just as important as mine & getting pushy to us is a turn-off. We like no pressure love-making. 

So yes, I do think that people have a right to their own bodies & should be allowed to not feel bad if they don't feel like having sex once in a while. And their SO should respect that. 
(Again, NOT a good thing to make that a selfish habit..compromise is key!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Actually, unless there is illness or a health issue, a spouse that REJECTS another spouse, and does it repeatedly is guilty of passive-agressive behavior and control issues.
> 
> When you marry or are in a committed relationship and are living together and sleeping in the same room/bed, then it is implied that intimacy and sexual contact are part of the agreement. If a spouse and/or SO does not want to be a part of that "unsaid" agreement, then they need to find someone who feels the same way.
> 
> ...


You stated my feelings on this subject perfectly.


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

Interesting topic.

I think i get what the OP was stating. I'm of the opinion of both camps; yes it is ok to reject sex at times. We are all our own person and as such should have final dominion over our own bodies. Additionally, I know I don't like it if my partner says 'yes' when she'd rather not. That's pity sex (or chore sex or duty sex, whatever term you want to use), and it's not at all fulfilling. I'd rather get a no then get that.

That said, I think it's the 'duty' of one partner to get into the mood for the other partner if that partner is seeking sex. Whether they flat out ask for it, or if you can tell it's coming or been a while, you know sex is coming up as a need for that partner. The other partner should try to get into the mood. If, for example, your partner asks for sex and you're not in the mood, that's fine, but shouldn't you then say 'how about we go and cuddle for a while and see what that leads to' or 'I'm not really in the mood now, but I could be' and lead your partner to the bedroom (or wherever you want to get your freak on) and actually try and work towards that goal.

At the least you should give your partner a raincheck for the following day and be ready to initiate yourself at that point. If you can't get amped up for your partner in one day, then there's an issue.

All of the above of course doesn't apply to couples who are dealing with extrenal issues, or stressful times, but on a whole for healthy couples, it should be easy to fulfill.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I think if your spouse is selfish enough to not notice that your health is bad and propositions you anyway, you have more problems on your hands than you think.

But, if you're perfectly healthy then no I think you don't have the right to reject because you're not in the mood. Each of you have different sex drive levels and need to respect each others accordingly. Marriage is all about exchanges, even when they seem annoying or inconvenient. This continuous flow of rejection from women to their husbands makes me crazy. Then they have the nerve to get upset when he looks at porn. Ridiculous.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

This is my BOOMSTICK! said:


> Interesting topic.
> 
> I think i get what the OP was stating. I'm of the opinion of both camps; yes it is ok to reject sex at times. We are all our own person and as such should have final dominion over our own bodies. Additionally, I know I don't like it if my partner says 'yes' when she'd rather not. That's pity sex (or chore sex or duty sex, whatever term you want to use), and it's not at all fulfilling. I'd rather get a no then get that.
> 
> ...


Yes we do OWN our own bodies.

But, if you are religious, when you marry, you cleave to your husband and wife and the bible specifically talks about your body belongs to your husband and vice versa.

I think what it's trying to say is, you become one and no longer are separate. You support, give and take from one another when you marry as it is now your right and obligation to do so.

And I agree wholeheartedly. When I married, I trusted my husband to provide to me what he was providing to me when we were dating and engaged - that is, support, love, caring, intimacy, sex, etc.

If he elects NOT to continue to do that AFTER the marriage, then perhaps he doesn't need to be married.

I see people on here every day talking about how their spouse changed. It's not changing, it's called bait and switch, plain and simple.

Yes, we own our bodies, but we've agreed to cleave them to our spouse when we marry. Don't like it - stay single. There is absolutely no excuse to make someone else suffer for your own short-comings, issues and controlling behavior.

I know I sound harsh but I'm sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their actions and the hurt and pain they cause the people they are supposed to love.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

hotdogs said:


> I think if your spouse is selfish enough to not notice that your health is bad and propositions you anyway, you have more problems on your hands than you think.
> 
> *But, if you're perfectly healthy then no I think you don't have the right to reject because you're not in the mood.** Each of you have different sex drive levels and need to respect each others accordingly.* Marriage is all about exchanges, even when they seem annoying or inconvenient. This continuous flow of rejection from women to their husbands makes me crazy. Then they have the nerve to get upset when he looks at porn. Ridiculous.


The two sentences I highlighted are contradictory. If both should respect each other's different drives, doesn't that also mean the spouse who isn't always in the mood also needs to be respected?


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

My view -- of course you have the right to say no. Saying no is not the same as rejection. Repeatedly and continuously saying no is also a different situation.

So which of these are we talking about?

And if anybody really believes that no is never inappropriate, then that should include EVERY day of the month, no exceptions. Otherwise you're contradicting yourself.


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

I think we are saying pretty much the same things MarriedWifeinLove, just maybe phrasing it different.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that a spouse should meet the other spouses desires sexually, but with possible exceptions for legit reasons (illness, stress from something significant like a death in the family, no reasonable opportunity, etc.). Outside of this, there's no really 'good' reason not to have sex, and if one person isn't in the mood, they should at least try to get in the mood.


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

norajane said:


> The two sentences I highlighted are contradictory. If both should respect each other's different drives, doesn't that also mean the spouse who isn't always in the mood also needs to be respected?


I think you can do both.

If you for example are in the mood, but your partner isn't, that's fine and you respect that. On the other hand, your partner should respect that you are in the mood and try to find a way to get into the mood.

It won't always work, but if one partner is in the mood and the other isn't but wants to be, odds are pretty good the amount of rejection (if you give your partner a bit of time/attention/whatever it takes to get into the mood) sexually in the relationship will be low.

the problem really arises when one aprtner is in the mood and the other doesn't try to get into the mood at all and just leaves their spouse frustrated.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

The whole topic is ambiguous. I think my wife would want a break if I wanted sex every day of the week but to me less than a couple of times week would be a big problem and when I was younger less than three times a week would have been a problem.

That's not to say I can't do without. I mean after child birth I was fine to back off for 5-6 weeks whatever it was. But there were medical reasons for that.

My personal opinion is that you should want to please your partner even if you're not physically into it. I know I would try to please my wife still if I had ED and there was not such thing to Viagra.

But then again, I don't think my wife thinks I just want her for sex either. I think she is (fill in many nice adjectives) just special and try to show that. Of course I also have expectations of how I expect to be treated.

It's complicated though and depends on how often the rejection and for what reason. I would not like it one bit and on the occasions that it's happened I had to think about if I was doing my part. Bottom line is if I do my part to keep my wife happy and cared for then I do expect she understand sex is important to me even on stressful days.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

the right to reject...no.

that is something you vowed.
if you are hendered from it because of sickness, time of the month, exhaustion etc, than thats understandable.
but to be selfish and not even try to be intimate for your partner when thats something they are wanting to express lovingly with you, shows that you could care less about their half of the feelings in the relationship.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> The whole topic is ambiguous. I think my wife would want a break if I wanted sex every day of the week but to me less than a couple of times week would be a big problem and when I was younger less than three times a week would have been a problem.
> 
> That's not to say I can't do without. I mean after child birth I was fine to back off for 5-6 weeks whatever it was. But there were medical reasons for that.
> 
> ...


I WOULD LOVE IT IF MY HUSBAND WANTED SEX EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Guess I'm the odd ball out, huh?


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I WOULD LOVE IT IF MY HUSBAND WANTED SEX EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.
> 
> Guess I'm the odd ball out, huh?


No way!!!! I do the propositioning and he makes the excuses. You and I are the oddballs? Maybe? LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

This is my BOOMSTICK! said:


> I think we are saying pretty much the same things MarriedWifeinLove, just maybe phrasing it different.
> 
> In a nutshell, I'm saying that a spouse should meet the other spouses desires sexually, but with possible exceptions for legit reasons (illness, stress from something significant like a death in the family, no reasonable opportunity, etc.). Outside of this, there's no really 'good' reason not to have sex, and if one person isn't in the mood, they should at least try to get in the mood.


I agree with this and would say as the spouse-1 meets the spouse-2s desires sexually that spouse-2 also has to be meeting spouse-1's needs as well like providing, caring, communicating, etc. It's a two way street.

And I agree that MarriedWifeInLove stated it very nicely and bluntly.


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## hotdogs (Aug 9, 2012)

I said something else really epic but my connection died whilst I submitted it, oy vey
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

norajane- ^ that is exactly what always goes through my mind when reading these kinds of posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

..are you trying to start crap? C'mon- lets take it outside!  

These kinds are the kinds that always cause controversy- the notorious HD vs. LD spouse.

It's a never ending debate! :O
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

karma*girl said:


> ..are you trying to start crap? C'mon- lets take it outside!
> 
> These kinds are the kinds that always cause controversy- the notorious HD vs. LD spouse.
> 
> ...


 Not trying to start crap. I'm an official anti-crap starter. I was just curious what "these kinds" meant. Actually I'm not sure everyone disagrees so much. It's just hard to nail down an exact answer when there are so many variables to the situation.


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## karma*girl (Apr 28, 2012)

Haha...I gotchya! 
I didn't mean it in a negative way..
I am all about fairness, so I fully support the give & take aspect of marriage.
I agree- there are so many variables to factor in & it ultimately comes down to what works for each couple, personally.
(Unfortunately coming to an agreement for people is not always so easy!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Geeze... I say.. yes they do have a right to reject as it is my belief that its their body and their love. If they want to give... then great... if not... that sucks big time sure... people can throw all the fits they want but to say a spouse HAS to do this or that just because there is a ring on their finger.... seems very controlling and forceful to me. We can't all have what we want and should be thankful for getting what we want if its given willingly. If its not and can't be worked out... then I say... find someone who IS willing. 

Btw I have been rejected in the sex department a few times but moreso in the emotional department and although it makes me upset and I vent... I do not feel like he HAS to do or give me anything. I prefer him to do it because he WANTS to... but that's just my view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok.. I feel like I do need to point out that my viewpoint is based upon my belief so although I feel that way... I do realize others with different belief systems don't. (Hoping not to get stoned here lmao)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Is it possible to have rights without responsibilities? If a relationship is an unseen entity that both persons in the marriage have a responsibility to nurture then things done for the betterment of the relationship rather than for ourselves serve to strengthen the relationship. When you reject your spouse are you also rejecting your relationship or both? When you have been rejected do you feel that your spouse is rejecting you or the relationship or both? I feel it's important to ask ourselves, wether HD or LD, if we take that right without the responsibility. There can be no LD without an HD and vice-versa. By recognizing this inequity in the relationship do we not both have a responsibility to it?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I mainly feel like he is rejecting me for the most part. Sometimes I tend to question the relationship though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

How about when she wants to spill her guts about her day and you're bagged and would rather veg out in front of the TV? Do you have the right to say 'not now...I'm not in the mood'? Sex is not the only area married couples may not be in synch. Personally, I don't think you have to be at all times. The important thing is you don't let it become a pattern and make sure to be considerate of each others needs as much as humanly possible.


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

we "rain check to later" or "I'll just play with myself, then ... do you want to watch?" 

reject? never. 

rejection is a form of abuse and we don't abuse each other.


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> How about when she wants to spill her guts about her day and you're bagged and would rather veg out in front of the TV? Do you have the right to say 'not now...I'm not in the mood'? Sex is not the only area married couples may not be in synch. Personally, I don't think you have to be at all times. The important thing is you don't let it become a pattern and make sure to be considerate of each others needs as much as humanly possible.


Agreed. This highlights an important reason behind sexual dissatisfaction in a marriage. If other needs aren't getting met (IE, talking, spending time together, cuddling, helping out around the house, etc.) then it's rather foolish to think you deserve a good sex life. Thing is, one often feeds the other, and if you aren't prepared to provide a happy sex life, don't expect your spouse to give you a happy life outside the bedroom, and vice versa.

You get what you give, you reap what you sow.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I have already stated that I have been rejected in that area maritime. Hence the emphasis on the.. emotional department. I do agree though about each spouse being considerate of the others needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> How about when she wants to spill her guts about her day and you're bagged and would rather veg out in front of the TV? Do you have the right to say 'not now...I'm not in the mood'?...


Nope. Needs are defined by the person who is in need


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Providing it isn't habitual, there are times when someone simply won't feel like sex and, IMO, they certainly do have the right to take a raincheck. 

I can't think of anything worse than feeling that I 'have' to have sex, or that my partner feels that he 'has' to have sex. Sex is something to be shared and enjoyed, not feel like a chore.

Habitual rejection, of course, is a different matter altogether, and needs to be examined for an underlying cause and dealt with asap.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> How about when she wants to spill her guts about her day and you're bagged and would rather veg out in front of the TV? Do you have the right to say 'not now...I'm not in the mood'? Sex is not the only area married couples may not be in synch. Personally, I don't think you have to be at all times. The important thing is you don't let it become a pattern and make sure to be considerate of each others needs as much as humanly possible.


Yes you have a right to say that. However do you not only have a responsibility toward the relationship in offering an alternative? Such as "I really want to hear about your day, give me half an hour infront of the TV to clear my head and I'll be in a better head space to listen".


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

There's a lot of dynamics at play here. 

In my head I have this stereotype of an overweight poorly kept guy getting home from work, slipping on his skid marked sweatpants, plopping himself down on the couch, burping and farting while wifey gets dinner ready, watching more TV while she cleans up and does a couple loads of laundry, then a hour or two after she collapses in bed exhausted joining her and trying to seduce her with, "how 'bout getting it on tonight babe", then getting all pissy when she's not too enthralled with the idea. 

I know this is overly simplistic image but my point is when it comes to being married seduction is not just a 5 minute exercise before the act. It's an ongoing behaviour. Often when people are not interested in sex it's not in retaliation for a perceived slight it's because they're not motivated to desire sex. This needs to be explored by the two of you as a couple to figure out how stimulate that motivation. 

Obviously there are cases where there are physical or mental health issues causing the problem but I would guess these are in the minority.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> There's a lot of dynamics at play here.
> 
> In my head I have this stereotype of an overweight poorly kept guy getting home from work, slipping on his skid marked sweatpants, plopping himself down on the couch, burping and farting while wifey gets dinner ready, watching more TV while she cleans up and does a couple loads of laundry, then a hour or two after she collapses in bed exhausted joining her and trying to seduce her with, "how 'bout getting it on tonight babe", then getting all pissy when she's not too enthralled with the idea.
> 
> ...


:iagree: Spot on.

When I hear about all these LD partners, I do wonder if they truly are LD or simply turned off by the sexual dynamics in the relationship...


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> There's a lot of dynamics at play here.
> 
> In my head I have this stereotype of an overweight poorly kept guy getting home from work, slipping on his skid marked sweatpants, plopping himself down on the couch, burping and farting while wifey gets dinner ready, watching more TV while she cleans up and does a couple loads of laundry, then a hour or two after she collapses in bed exhausted joining her and trying to seduce her with, "how 'bout getting it on tonight babe", then getting all pissy when she's not too enthralled with the idea.
> 
> ...


I really like this post. Spot on.

that said, it should be pointed out that it goes both ways. Sometimes the guy comes home and doesn't put much effort in because he knows, effort or not, he's 50% or more likely to get rejected. So why put the effort in?

Communication needs to be means to set up the expectations to allow for a fulfilling sexlife.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> When I hear about all these LD partners, I do wonder if they truly are LD or simply turned off by the sexual dynamics in the relationship...


Negative stereotypes aside, I don't doubt the situation exists. 

But TAM is not a random cross-section of the population at large and the burping, farting, self-absorbed overweight couch potato doesn't strike me as the type who would buy armfuls of self-help books, bare their soul on a forum like this and lay awake at night racking their brains over what could possibly be wrong.


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

You are an awesome wife. How lucky can someone be.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Both my wife and I are perfectly comfortable saying "no". Sometimes the one in the mood will pursue and get what they want, and sometimes not.

We also have more than enough sex that when one of us is in the mood, and the other not, it's no big deal. 

We both believe the other has the right to reject, _within reason_. We know that if sex doesn't happen at that moment, it's not a lost cause tomorrow, or even later on in the same day. Even if one person rejects there is not an overall attitude of rejection. If that became the case, with one person chronically rejecting, for long stretches of time, with no attempt to change, than that is moving into vow breaking territory.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

mina said:


> "I'll just play with myself, then ... do you want to watch?"


If my wife is_ really_ in the mood, as in she must have it, but I've told her no, she'll play with herself. I get pseudo-mad at her because it's SO manipulative :rofl:. She knows good and well that if I know she's in another room playing with herself that I almost will never be able to resist going into said room, watching, and eventually joining in.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> We also have more than enough sex that when one of us is in the mood, and the other not, it's no big deal.


As long as everyone is consistently getting enough it's not a problem. I also tend to find the next time usually turns out to be super hot. It does help knowing the next time will be soon.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> If my wife is_ really_ in the mood, as in she must have it, but I've told her no, she'll play with herself. I get pseudo-mad at her because it's SO manipulative :rofl:. She knows good and well that if I know she's in another room playing with herself that I almost will never be able to resist going into said room, watching, and eventually joining in.


Lucky man.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

I would say it's okay to reject, but there has to be a reason/explanation. If it's a pattern (of rejection), there's a problem.

Your partner is not a sex slave. But they are your PARTNER.


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## This is my BOOMSTICK! (Aug 16, 2012)

Unsure in Seattle said:


> I would say it's okay to reject, but there has to be a reason/explanation. If it's a pattern (of rejection), there's a problem.
> 
> Your partner is not a sex slave. But they are your PARTNER.


Do you concider "I'm not in the mood" a reason that can be used repeatedly?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> I also tend to find the next time usually turns out to be super hot.


It definitely can. My wife and I have high enough drives that we could have sex every day (if I can get past the chaffing). 

However I am glad that we don't. A little time between love making sessions can improve quality and passion. I am much more interested in quality sex over quantity.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This is my BOOMSTICK! said:


> Do you concider "I'm not in the mood" a reason that can be used repeatedly?


I know this isn't addressed to me, but in our marriage it is. If one of us is being really pouty we'll whine a bit, and the other will just say why the aren't in the mood, or just a simple "I don't feel like it". We don't need to give each other "legit" reasons why we don't want to have sex. I think that only becomes a problem in relationships where rejection is a common occurrence, or there is a lack of trust from one person regarding the motivations behind why their SO is chronically "not in the mood".


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

One additional question that is related because it creates a legitimate excuse, who is responsible for contraception? Ignoring condoms because they do not work reliably, can a W legitimately say get snipped or rhythm method only (to a H younger than 40)? Is an IUD (the copper one has no hormones) something the W should be required to try if there is a decision to avoid procreating (non-surgical and non-hormonal)?


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I should have clarified. I understand there are often medical reasons that hinder frequent sex. I mean in a physically healthy relationship where both partners can have sex, do the spouses have the right to reject each other?


I've read similar questions here before and never knew if I fully understood what was being asked. I guess I never thought they didn't have the right to refuse. I suppose if they didn't have the right, then the person who wanted it could just force it on them and it would be ok, but we all know that's not ok.

My sex life with my x wife was never as often as I wanted(once every few weeks), but I never thought she didn't have the right to refuse. If a person does frequently refuse, I don't think they should expect their spouse to joyfully supply all their needs, whatever they may be.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

If I am a) sick b) having a emotional crisis. H knows those are not a good time to have sex. I get migraines a lot so.....that's a no. I can't even function when I have those let alone have sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

"Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse? "

To say no to sex once in a blue moon is not rejecting your spouse. So that should not be a problem.


To say no to sex most of the time is rejecting your spouse and thus is wong. No a person should not reject their spouse. It's a form of abuse if the rejecting spouse does not immediately seek to solve the reason they feel like rejecting their spouse.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

jaquen said:


> *Both my wife and I are perfectly comfortable saying "no". Sometimes the one in the mood will pursue and get what they want, and sometimes not.*
> We also have more than enough sex that when one of us is in the mood, and the other not, it's no big deal.
> 
> We both believe the other has the right to reject, _within reason_. We know that if sex doesn't happen at that moment, it's not a lost cause tomorrow, or even later on in the same day. Even if one person rejects there is not an overall attitude of rejection. If that became the case, with one person chronically rejecting, for long stretches of time, with no attempt to change, than that is moving into vow breaking territory.


My wife was perfectly comfortable saying no for almost 14 years


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Actually, unless there is illness or a health issue, a spouse that REJECTS another spouse, and does it repeatedly is guilty of passive-agressive behavior and control issues.
> 
> When you marry or are in a committed relationship and are living together and sleeping in the same room/bed, then it is implied that intimacy and sexual contact are part of the agreement. If a spouse and/or SO does not want to be a part of that "unsaid" agreement, then they need to find someone who feels the same way.
> 
> ...


I agree. 100%.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Yes we do OWN our own bodies.
> 
> But, if you are religious, when you marry, you cleave to your husband and wife and the bible specifically talks about your body belongs to your husband and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I think, and why I started the thread.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

So, where is the line drawn between the right to say no, and rejection?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

It's been touched on earlier, but to emphasize:

We are possessing of reasonable intelligence and free will which should be respected. So, yes, ultimately we do have the right to reject our spouses (however morally repugnant that may be).

But, that ultimate right to say no goes both ways. The refused spouse can't force sex but does not have to meekly accept refusal; he or she can impose boundaries and consequences up to and including ending the marriage. 

The refusing spouse sometimes tries to take the easy way out. Rather than addressing personal or relationship issues, he or she will claim impunity ("there's nothing you can do about it"). It's important for the refused spouse to accept this is not true.

Next, stress and illness are not always good reasons to avoid sex. I've seen a wife claim stress and exhaustion as valid reasons to refuse, then it turns out little Timmy plays sports and piano every week. Seems like the issue is prioritization, not stress. Similarly, if a refuser says "I'm sick" but manages to meet all their own priorities, something else is going on.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I think this is a great topic and it should probably be a mandatory discussion for couples considering getting married. 

While I definately believe a person has a right to refuse sex with their spouse the flip side of course is that they have to understand it will impact on the relationship. If it becomes chronic the marriage dynamic has changed and they have to expect their partner will react. They may not like that reaction. 

To me sex is an important part of a healthy relationship. There's a saying...I can't remember precisely how it goes but it's something like when the sex is good it's 50% of the relationship however when it's bad it's 90% of a relationship or something to that effect.


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

I might regret giving my opinion later, but my personal opinions put personal bodily integrity over anything else, including the vows I took. I will honor him and cherish him and love him unconditionally for the rest of my life, but I said nothing about giving up autonomy over my own body (and if such a line was thrown in, I would have reconsidered repeating it). So yes, I believe we absolutely have the right to say no as often or as little as we like, however much it may 'upset' someone else.

The consequences of this are up to each married couple to decide of course, and from the looks of this thread a lot of people have a healthy way to deal with 'rejection' to minimise its impact on their marriage. The people who deal with chronic rejection have to see it as like any other issue in a marriage - a symptom of something deeper that has to be addressed. Not as something they're entitled to that they're currently being denied.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I can't remember precisely how it goes but it's something like when the sex is good it's 50% of the relationship however when it's bad it's 90% of a relationship or something to that effect.


I like that (hmm, 50, that's another discussion). But yes, bad sex can be just as bad no sex and lead to not trying anymore. Had that for about 6 months, horrible, but taken as a wake up call by both and changes made again by both.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> I might regret giving my opinion later, but my personal opinions put personal bodily integrity over anything else, including the vows I took. I will honor him and cherish him and love him unconditionally for the rest of my life, but I said nothing about giving up autonomy over my own body (and if such a line was thrown in, I would have reconsidered repeating it). So yes, I believe we absolutely have the right to say no as often or as little as we like, however much it may 'upset' someone else.
> 
> The consequences of this are up to each married couple to decide of course, and from the looks of this thread a lot of people have a healthy way to deal with 'rejection' to minimise its impact on their marriage. *The people who deal with chronic rejection have to see it as like any other issue in a marriage - a symptom of something deeper that has to be addressed. Not as something they're entitled to that they're currently being denied*.


I dealt with chronic rejection from my wife for years. I asked over and over what was the problem, asked her to see doctors,
she never told me or sought medical help. This went on for 12 of the 14 years we were married and only ended when she was diagnosed with leukemia and died 2 years later. She never told me why. I stayed because I loved her, maybe I should have left early on.

She was 34 when she died and left me grieving, depressed, and without any self confidence or self esteem due to being rejected hundreds of time.

Yeah she had the right to do that


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

See, in my opinion, sex _is_ an entitlement of marriage for both spouses. Unless the couple marries with the knowledge of a preexisting condition that prevents frequent sex, then everyone marries knowing that sex is expected. And, I don't know about the rest of you guys, but when I vowed to "love, honor and cherish" my husband, I meant in _every_ way, and that included my body. Just like when he vowed to "love, honor and cherish" me, he meant in every way, including my love language, which I see as an entitlement as well. "Love" encompasses a great many things. I don't see how sex can be excluded. And, imo, it shouldn't be.

Spiritually speaking, my husband and I are Christians. And in the Bible it discusses a man and his wife becoming one flesh when they marry. We firmly believe and hold to the fact that neither of us has control over our own bodies. Let me use a realistic example here. If I decided I wanted to get a tattoo before I married, who would I have needed to consult beforehand? No one. As long as I was eighteen and had the money, I could get any tattoo I wanted and it would affect only me. Now that I'm married, though, if I want a tattoo I _should_ discuss it with my husband. He's the one who looks on my entire body and knows it intimately. Maybe he doesn't want it inked? Maybe he would be all for it, so long as he knew what I was getting? But whether he minds or not, getting the tattoo without talking to him about it will affect the marriage. 

Now, let me be clear: I'm not saying that marital rape is justified or that either spouse can't or shouldn't ever say no. There's no real love in that. Both spouses should be able to rain check with their spouse, and follow through with that rain check. My only qualm is that emotional needs seem to be held as a higher importance than sex. This is something I do not agree with. If I expect my husband to cuddle with me every day, then I should be meeting his needs every day in some way. Now, some times I only get five to ten minutes of cuddling. But there's a lot I can do to him in another five to ten minutes! And, in my opinion, sex is JUST as important as the emotional aspects of the relationship. Hell, in my marriage sex is the most fulfilling thing we do together. 

I know my view is unpopular. I've been criticized by a lot of people before about it, but I just don't like the double standard. It's fine to expect the husband to help around the house every day, but it's not fine to expect the wife to meet her husbands needs every day. I believe that marriage is mutual, so what goes for one spouse must apply to the other. If the wife is expecting that she can no to sex twice a week(no judgement in that statement, just offering it as an example), then her husband should be able to say no to helping with the chores and kids twice a week.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Malaise said:


> I dealt with chronic rejection from my wife for years. I asked over and over what was the problem, asked her to see doctors,
> she never told me or sought medical help. This went on for 12 of the 14 years we were married and only ended when she was diagnosed with leukemia and died 2 years later. She never told me why. I stayed because I loved her, maybe I should have left early on.
> 
> She was 34 when she died and left me grieving, depressed, and without any self confidence or self esteem due to being rejected hundreds of time.
> ...


I am so sorry to hear that! That is truly devastating, and is exactly why I hate the mindset of "I have the right to say no". Sex is about love! I know my husband loves having sex with me so much because it's with *me*! He doesn't want it from anyone else, just me. That's a good thing. He is a dang attractive man and well equipped, so he could get sex from any girl he wanted. Even in sweats, dirty from a long days work, and he's a sexy beast. Yet, he only wants it with me. It's not the _action_ that he desires as much as it is _his wife_ that he desires. I don't get why and how sex is equated to nothing more than a physical action. 

And it's not that I think spouses shouldn't ever say no to sex, I just hate the attitude that comes with the word "right". It's like the person is saying they're above the act of sex. Please note, I'm not accusing anyone here of that attitude. It's just when I see that phrase written out or spoken, that is always the connotation that comes with it.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Thanks

What was really the worst part is not knowing why. She went from a loving, caring woman one day to the opposite hours after the ceremony. There was no sex on the wedding night, I put it down to being nervous and tired.

Nothing on the honeymoon. I was concerned.Talking wouldn't help.

The only sex we had was when she wanted it. I estimate no more than 20 times in 12 years of health. I estimate being rejected hundreds of times until I gave up.

Nothing was offered as a substitute(oral,anal) heaven forbid.

Do I sound bitter?

My biggest regret in life is that I didn't stand up for myself more.This was in 1979, no TAM.

Yes I was A Nice Guy. We do finish last


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> See, in my opinion, sex _is_ an entitlement of marriage for both spouses.


I agree, and I'd even say it's prerequisite to continue the marriage.



Created2Write said:


> Now that I'm married, though, if I want a tattoo I _should_ discuss it with my husband.


Or you could surprise him with both your names in a heart or rose, it'd be OK.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Now we've equated sexual relationships with household chores?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

CharlieParker said:


> I agree, and I'd even say it's prerequisite to continue the marriage.
> 
> 
> Or you could surprise him with both your names in a heart or rose, it'd be OK.


Eh, my man isn't find of tattoos much. Anytime I've mentioned getting one he's always had a negative reaction. I would never get one anyway. I hate needled and have an incredibly low tolerance to pain. I'm a wuss.  But, if there were a tattoo I would get, it would be something like that.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> Now we've equated sexual relationships with household chores?


I was comparing the needs of one spouse to the needs of the other. If a wife expects her husband to speak her love language everyday, she needs to speak his everyday. One of the five love languages is Acts of Service, which would be household chores. Some women are like, totally enthralled when their husbands help around the house. Some could care less about that, like me. The only chore I won't do is the garbage, and he knows it. But I'll do all of the rest by myself. If he helps, great. If not, no biggie. 

Physical touch and Word of Affirmation are my languages. I expect my husband to speak those every day, when possible. So, I, in turn, speak his every day, when possible. I'm not equating sex to house hold chores, I'm comparing different expectations. Sex is often seen as an aside to marriage-a plus, the icing on the cake, so to speak. I have never and will never agree to that analogy. Sex, for my marriage, is just as important as communication and honesty.


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## roger boschman (Aug 3, 2012)

They have, but in rare cases. Best way is to declare both "always available." Then, there may be rare times, such as menstrual serious flow, when both agree it is too messy. Even then, there is always that "red towel" you keep handy to take the stain. And there is the handjob for relief with no mess. If there is a will -- there is a way... enjoy sex! Roger G. Boschman, Therapist.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

This is my BOOMSTICK! said:


> Do you concider "I'm not in the mood" a reason that can be used repeatedly?


I dunno. I think that if this is an excuse that keeps cropping up, the rejected partner would be well within their rights to open up a dialogue about how rejected or hurt they feel and discuss how "the mood" can be acheived in the future.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> See, in my opinion, sex _is_ an entitlement of marriage for both spouses.


For me I would swap out the word 'entitlement' for 'expectation'.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Probably been said but she has the right to deny me sex and I have the right to divorce her. Pretty simple.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Seems simple to me: 
- You are fully entitled to "decline" sex. It is your body
- declining sex "in the moment" can be done without rejecting your partner 
- Putting the burden of initiating solely on your partner and frequently declining sex without:
a. Compassion or remorse
b. Offering a nearby and defined time by which you will connect Or
c. Offering to initiate yourself 
That isn't about declining sex. That is about rejecting your partner.




Created2Write said:


> I am so sorry to hear that! That is truly devastating, and is exactly why I hate the mindset of "I have the right to say no". Sex is about love! I know my husband loves having sex with me so much because it's with *me*! He doesn't want it from anyone else, just me. That's a good thing. He is a dang attractive man and well equipped, so he could get sex from any girl he wanted. Even in sweats, dirty from a long days work, and he's a sexy beast. Yet, he only wants it with me. It's not the _action_ that he desires as much as it is _his wife_ that he desires. I don't get why and how sex is equated to nothing more than a physical action.
> 
> And it's not that I think spouses shouldn't ever say no to sex, I just hate the attitude that comes with the word "right". It's like the person is saying they're above the act of sex. Please note, I'm not accusing anyone here of that attitude. It's just when I see that phrase written out or spoken, that is always the connotation that comes with it.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> Not as something they're entitled to that they're currently being denied.


I was with you totally until this last sentence. Yes the denied spouse is absolutely, totally, and completely "entitled" to sex from their spouse. If the vows included a section where we agreed to "forsake all others", or any such variation pertaining to sexual monogamy, the inherent understanding is that the spouses will serve as sexual partners to one another in the absence of all others.

Marriage certainly does entitle both parties to certain rights, sex being among those rights. Marriage is not designed to be an ongoing hope that a spouse will gift you sex. No, marriage comes with the expectation of, and yes entitlement, to sex. If a couple feels otherwise, then they should renegotiate those vows _before_ pledging them. Because if suddenly the rejected spouse is NOT "entitled" to fulfill their marital sexual duties, then they are likewise no longer entitled to monogamy.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> then her husband should be able to say no to helping with the chores and kids twice a week.


I agree with this in general, but not this specific example. Kids are mutually each spouse's responsibility, so the helping out with the kids shouldn't be a "wife duty" that the husband merely "helps" with. The taking care of the children should be totally independent of the other responsibilities, rights, and duties specific to the marriage.


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## ObjectOfAffection (Jul 12, 2012)

I think couples need to find a good balance, and the key to finding that balance is good communication.

I firmly do not believe that being married entitles you to sex with your spouse. I think it's extremely important to be able to say "not tonight honey." As long as both parties are communicating well and respecting the others' needs, it shouldn't devolve to the point where one spouse feels rejected due to being turned down repeatedly. 

I was LD with my ex husband, and he was HD. His ideal would have been sex every night, but I was more 2-3 times a week. Unless I had a ton of foreplay, sex with him was painful for me, even with lube. Unfortunately, my ex wasn't big into foreplay. This combined with some hard emotional times we were having led me to wanting sex less, and he and I both failed to communicate and find a good balance in our sex life. 

I eventually fell into duty sex once a week. Basically he'd express his frustration to me, I'd feel guilty, and we'd have sex. Sometimes I would initiate to get it out of the way for the week. I WANTED to want sex, but it wasn't happening, and I didn't know how to fix it. His pressuring me about sex made it even worse. Through all this I was becoming increasingly averse to any sexual act (including masturbation), and over time I was no longer attracted to my husband.

I eventually saw a therapist to work through this and many other issues. Basically, because I was frequently having sex when I didn't want to, I'd established a negative emotional connection to having sex with my husband. 

For me it became a vicious cycle - I was having sex 'for' my husband even when I wasn't in the mood - which contributed to my negative emotional associations with sex - which led to me not wanting sex, but having sex 'for' my husband. and on and on.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

ObjectOfAffection said:


> I think couples need to find a good balance, and the key to finding that balance is good communication.
> 
> *I firmly do not believe that being married entitles you to sex with your spouse. I think it's extremely important to be able to say "not tonight honey." As long as both parties are communicating well and respecting the others' needs, it shouldn't devolve to the point where one spouse feels rejected due to being turned down repeatedly. *
> I was LD with my ex husband, and he was HD. His ideal would have been sex every night, but I was more 2-3 times a week. Unless I had a ton of foreplay, sex with him was painful for me, even with lube. Unfortunately, my ex wasn't big into foreplay. This combined with some hard emotional times we were having led me to wanting sex less, and he and I both failed to communicate and find a good balance in our sex life.
> ...


Unfortuneatly it does devolve into feelings of rejection and in some cases anger and resentment.

At least you tried to have sex with your H, and believe me when I say that once a week would have been heaven for me.

My problem (and it was mine) was that I couldn't confront after confronting twice and getting the Medusa like look from her

I honestly thought that she would leave me at that point.

Yes, I know she had a problem but I couldn't convince her to get help.

In the end I'm glad I stayed otherwise she would have faced the cancer alone. I loved her too much for that to happen.

Still, years later I am feeling resentment.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I agree with this in general, but not this specific example. Kids are mutually each spouse's responsibility, so the helping out with the kids shouldn't be a "wife duty" that the husband merely "helps" with. The taking care of the children should be totally independent of the other responsibilities, rights, and duties specific to the marriage.


I agree. I was in a hurry and retyped the sentence, but forgot to delete the "kids" part. My bad.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

ObjectOfAffection said:


> I think couples need to find a good balance, and the key to finding that balance is good communication.
> 
> I firmly do not believe that being married entitles you to sex with your spouse. I think it's extremely important to be able to say "not tonight honey." As long as both parties are communicating well and respecting the others' needs, it shouldn't devolve to the point where one spouse feels rejected due to being turned down repeatedly.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about frequency, though. That is something that do believe should be compromised on, if ever there needs to be a compromise. Sex, and marriage, are mutual so if one partner wants once a week, and the other wants every day, neither one should be forced to settle for what's uncomfortable for them, but instead compromise in the middle as much as possible. (Easier said than done, but it's what I think should happen.)

And, no offense, but I would consider your situation to be a complicated one. Physical pain during sex is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. I struggled with it when I changed my birth control, and I understand the desire to want sex, but not bringing yourself to want it. Our situations differ with our husbands. My husband never pressured me, didn't even mention his dissatisfaction, so I was always willing to have sex, even if it hurt. And no resentment was built. 

I have to disagree with you though when you say sex isn't an entitlement. I understand that there a lot of things in a relationship that can make the sexual aspect rocky and difficult. When trust is broken, or there's hurt and resentment between spouses the sexual aspect of the relationship seems to me to be one of the first things to decline. But that just proves, in my opinion, how important sex really is to a relationship. I could be speaking entirely from the ignorance of nothing but my own experience, but this is my opinion.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Malaise said:


> Unfortuneatly it does devolve into feelings of rejection and in some cases anger and resentment.
> 
> At least you tried to have sex with your H, and believe me when I say that once a week would have been heaven for me.
> 
> ...


Everyone, imo, deserves to feel loved and desired by their spouse. It makes me sad to hear of men and women who are completely rejected sexually. Not that having a LD is wrong or negative. Everyone is unique and different. I just wish more people would _try_ to improve their sex life, and be willing to for the sake of themselves and their spouse. Cause it's not just one spouse who is affected.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

norajane said:


> Of course everyone retains the right to say no. Marriage doesn't mean you give up all rights to your body and to your mental and emotional well-being.
> 
> If you are repeatedly and regularly saying no, however, that points to deeper problems in your relationship that need to be addressed.


:iagree::iagree:

I rarely say no to my husband, but I need to feel emotionally safe enough to refuse sex. I have a history of sexual abuse and I hate being made to do sexual things when I am not interested.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

C2,
There is just some very - incomprehensible - to me - behavior out there. 

A guy comes on here and is posting for a while about how his wife is sexually freezing him out and he is REALLY angry. 

So - ummm - then his WIFE starts to post. If they were trolls there were REALLY life like trolls. Utterly indistinguishable from real people - in real pain. One thing I have found to be true - people in LONG TERM sexual marriages are not "truth seeking" with regard to the R. They simply do not ask simple, basic questions. Actually - often when provided those simple basic questions they still elect not to ask them. 

My marriage was sexless once - for 5 days and 4 nights. Now - don't get me wrong - during our 23 years together we have had times where we didn't have sex for more than 5 days. When she was violently morning sick during pregnancy - we had some blocks of time where sex didn't happen. And when you bring your partner to urgent care for dehydration - the last thing you are worried about is "that". 

But the 5 days above - that was different. Physically she was healthy. She just went temporarily crazy. I honestly had no idea what was happening - all I knew was that she needed to be honest with me. And so on day 5 I provided her a solution - that was not framed as a question. Suddenly - miraculously - she became very sane. And she went from crazily aggressive to wildly sexual on nights 5, 6, ..... for weeks until we settled back into our normal routine of a couple times a week. 

Many/most men on the boards who are losing their minds due to lack of sex - are not really - truly - seeking the truth. Sorry but they aren't. Excerpt from hundreds/thousands of posts: 
My W has an O every time we do it - which means sex is GREAT for her - so why isn't she willing to do it more than 1-2 times a month. First off - that may or may not be true - but lets accept it at face value. Accept it is true. So I always suggest the following question:

If you take the O out of the equation, what do you like the most, what do you like the least? Am I too gentle, too rough, too timid, too dominant? 

Do I warm you up long enough before I start touching you in sensitive spots? 

And ultimately: 
If you decline to tell me what turns you on/off in and out of bed, there is only one conclusion I can draw do you know what that is? 

Because the conclusion is that - they aren't attracted to "core" you. And in my view, you have a RIGHT to know that. And if they won't answer - you nicely let them know that you take their silence as meaning that it is a "core" attraction issue, you accept that and will no longer initiate sex. AND that you didn't sign up to be celibate and it is important for them to know that. 

I guess it has taken me a lot of words to reach the punch line:
- The right to decline sex: YES
- The right to REJECT you - as a spouse - as a sexual partner - in that unique mix of qualities that makes you desirable: YES
- The right to LIE TO YOU OVER AND OVER so they may benefit from a relationship that eats at your soul like acid: NO - ABSOLUTELY NOT - NEVER

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/48949-defining-normal-attitude-7.html



this was my suggestion to him...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Mephisto,
One game that's really fun is called "better one, better two". 
My W played this game with me early in our marriage. She started with a full body massage and began with paired moves. The masseuse never feels criticized because they are ASKING for feedback. The the person being massages simply answers with a one or a two. When my W did that for me, I felt very loved, very focused on. So of course I flipped it around and did it to her. Great fun giving this way as well. 

She did 2 different things:
1. a light scratch up and down my spine (and say "better 1?")
2. medium pressure palm up and down his spine ("or better 2")

And he says better 1 (or better 2), and then she does some other pair of touches. He can also say "tied" if he really likes both. 

There are so many variations of:
- Pressure
- Speed
- Direction
- Location
- Body part you are using (finger tips, nails, palms, etc.)

This is a fun game and a nice way to learn how someone most likes to be touched. 

The other alternative is he gives you exactly the massage he wants you to give HIM. And right after he finishes you show you learned the lesson by echoing it back him. 

FYI: I consider myself very very skilled at this game after playing for 2 decades. Still my wife is the sensei. She is able to massage the very center of my palm with her fingers - and the ball of my foot with her fingers - and by doing EITHER of those things she can make me totally hard. Lots of nerves in your hands/feet so massaging someone elses hands and feet can be very erotic for them.

This SAME approach can be used for actual foreplay. It might seem odd, but it works great and is quite fun. I love being good at touching my W. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>




Created2Write said:


> I'm not talking about frequency, though. That is something that do believe should be compromised on, if ever there needs to be a compromise. Sex, and marriage, are mutual so if one partner wants once a week, and the other wants every day, neither one should be forced to settle for what's uncomfortable for them, but instead compromise in the middle as much as possible. (Easier said than done, but it's what I think should happen.)
> 
> And, no offense, but I would consider your situation to be a complicated one. Physical pain during sex is something that shouldn't be taken lightly. I struggled with it when I changed my birth control, and I understand the desire to want sex, but not bringing yourself to want it. Our situations differ with our husbands. My husband never pressured me, didn't even mention his dissatisfaction, so I was always willing to have sex, even if it hurt. And no resentment was built.
> 
> I have to disagree with you though when you say sex isn't an entitlement. I understand that there a lot of things in a relationship that can make the sexual aspect rocky and difficult. When trust is broken, or there's hurt and resentment between spouses the sexual aspect of the relationship seems to me to be one of the first things to decline. But that just proves, in my opinion, how important sex really is to a relationship. I could be speaking entirely from the ignorance of nothing but my own experience, but this is my opinion.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I believe spouses DO have a right to reject their spouse
But I also believe that spouses also have a responsibility to be the lover that their spouse desires.

For example, I've noticed a lot of people ask for sex or initiate rather blandly in my opinion. They don't bother getting their spouse in the mood, or to show intimacy, or to have fun with teases, etc etc
Not to mention other stuff such as health/weight/hygiene/etc...


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

I don't think anyone on this Earth, married or single or making out with a hot blonde on a silk bedspread with sexy music playing is ever 'entitled' to sex. At any point, anyone (including the sexy blonde) is allowed to pull back and say no, this isn't what I want (tonight/ever/with you).

I just consider it a basic human freedom. And marital rape was outlawed sometime in the '90s so the legal entitlement to marital sex is gone too.

If the wife/husband doesn't want sex but still 'wants' to get their spouse off, then he or she still 'wants' sexual contact, and thus everyone is still only doing what they want to do. And that is fine.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Jane_Doe if you seriously think people are suggesting that marital rape is OK when they talk about "entitlement", then you have missed the point totally.

To be entitled to something means that you have a right to something. Marital vows give each person the right to sex within the marriage. When marrying you VOW to forsake all others, and enter into a contract of sexual monogamy. To what degree those terms can be fulfilled depends on the couple, and some level of compromise needs to be worked out so that all parties are reasonably fulfilled. Nobody in this conversation who believes in entitled sex is making that synonymous with the loss of the right to say no. I myself have said that both my wife and I feel very comfortable turning now sex anytime we want, for whatever reason we like, with the understanding that this can NOT become a trend, or develop into an overall routine of chronic rejection.

Again, if somebody doesn't feel that their spouse is entitled to sex with them within the boundaries of marriage, then they have forfeited the right to expect sexual singularity from them. 

So yes, if your spouse no longer has the right to have sex with you, then you no longer have the right to expect them to stay sexually monogamous with you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> I don't think anyone on this Earth, married or single or making out with a hot blonde on a silk bedspread with sexy music playing is ever 'entitled' to sex. At any point, anyone (including the sexy blonde) is allowed to pull back and say no, this isn't what I want (tonight/ever/with you).
> 
> I just consider it a basic human freedom. And marital rape was outlawed sometime in the '90s so the legal entitlement to marital sex is gone too.


I agree with jaquen. If you think this is in any way the general consensus here then I certainly disagree with that assessment. I think almost everyone is saying similar things just from different angles.



Jane_Doe said:


> If the wife/husband doesn't want sex but still 'wants' to get their spouse off, then he or she still 'wants' sexual contact, and thus everyone is still only doing what they want to do. And that is fine.


I agree with that. My thoughts and I think many others are that both spouses should want to please each other. If one spouse needs things like conversation, snuggle time, to feel provided for, to feel respected, etc then the other spouse should work to provide those needs. On the flip side, if one spouse (usually husband) want sexual contact more often then that is a need just like the others listed above and the other spouse should work to provide those needs. It's not about having an "O" everytime. Sometimes it's because you love the person wanting it.


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

I think the 'right to sex' and the 'right to say no' _are _mutually exclusive. One of you cannot be having sex while the other one is saying no. Not consensual sex anyway. Both these things cannot happen at the same time, so one has to happen over the other.

Thus, either 'not having sex' or 'having sex' is the outcome of any given scenario, and in my view if one partner does not want sex, sex should not happen. Both people have to want sexual contact for it to be consensual and intimate and all that good stuff. Compromises made in this area (rainchecks, HJs, TJs, BJs) are up to the individual couple to discuss and can't be forced either.

And I'm aware there are different definitions of entitlement, so I brought up actual legal entitlement, because it _was _once believed that a husband was legally entitled to sex to the point where he could physically force it. But now times have changed and importance is placed on mutual enjoyment and intimacy in most cases.

I think that we seem to be on the same page about a lot of things, because chronic rejection is a whole different animal that of course would need to be addressed like any other marital issue, but I'm very firm on my boundaries and bodily integrity.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The only person talking about rape here Jane_Doe is you.

I don't even believe a discussion about marital rape has anything whatsoever to do with what the rest of us are discussing.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> "Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse? "
> 
> To say no to sex once in a blue moon is not rejecting your spouse. So that should not be a problem.
> 
> ...


I agree. Refusing sex with a partner/spouse _on a regular basis _is a form of abuse. However, demanding sex from a partner/spouse when, for whatever reason, they don't feel like sex is also abusive, IMO. Whatever the reason for declining sex, communication is key, and it should not be a regular occurrence.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> ...and in my view if one partner does not want sex, sex should not happen. Both people have to want sexual contact for it to be consensual and intimate and all that good stuff. Compromises made in this area (rainchecks, HJs, TJs, BJs) are up to the individual couple to discuss and can't be forced either.


Jane_Doe. You may think I am disagreeing with you which is not true. I agree with what you said. The part I'm adding into the equation that I think you agree with but I could be wrong is that a partner should sometimes "want to have sex" purely because it's a need of their partner. If the only time my wife would ever have sex with me is when she's "biologically" in the mood then I would feel like she does not care about my needs being met if they interfere with her convenience.



Jane_Doe said:


> I think that we seem to be on the same page about a lot of things, because chronic rejection is a whole different animal that of course would need to be addressed like any other marital issue, but I'm very firm on my boundaries and bodily integrity.


I think so too but it seems like you would be very quick to pull the "all you want me for is sex" card based on your strong feelings about it and then deny your partner unfairly. Again I could be wrong.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If one spouse needs things like conversation, snuggle time, to feel provided for, to feel respected, etc then the other spouse should work to provide those needs.


My issue with this is identicle to having sex when you dont want to...I dont WANT to have "conversation " with anyone let alone my husband knowing he really doesnt need that too..I don't WANT him to 'talk to me" knowing its "for me" and hes "doing it" out of "love" for me rather than hes into the conversation and really enjoys talking to me..if he doesnt ?Well then no thanks..I also in MHO think its quite bizarre to want to have sex with someone that you arent interested in even having conversations with.Or only beign "willing' to have a conversation with your OWN "for life" spouse thinking of it in terms of if I do that they should be willing to have unwanted or lets say "undesired" sex with me later on in "exchange' .....

In fact on the respect "need" ..I would feel extremely "disresepcted" and unloved if I thought my husband was forcing himself to "talk " to me ..really didnt enjoy that but for the promise of him getting some sex in exchange..as well as providided ..Im not a prostitute..

These things should be given FREELY out of mutual desire..giving AND recieiving not a swap meet..

Other wise it would read like this..I had sex with you last night..I know you have a lot on your mind right now and you are tired..but you "owe me a conversation" so if you wont engage with me then I just will refuse you sex next time you want it.Or hey ...feel like making love?..Um not really I have no desire at the moment and my mind is racing about xy and z..Well..in that case tomorrow don't expect me to talk to you ...

Also the other problem is with even libido differences one spouse wants less the other wants more and the "gap" is significant..they KNOW this about each other ..the one who wants more "gets' the other to have sex REGULARLY when they are NOT into it..then the complaint is "but thats not satisfying to have sex knowing you really dont want to"..Well then WHY in the hell talk a person into having sex 4 to 8 times a week..when they have TOLD you they can not get into that frequently?(and I mean every single week for decades)What do you think "guilting " or "convincing" someone to just "do it" by telling them how "important it is to YOU " regardless of that not being a true desire for THEM that often will suddenly INCREASE their true desires and longings?

Sorry I'v been married 24 years ...My husband KNOWS the difference in my sexual responses just my body language when I really want to and when I really dont..and when I really dont even "doing it' anyway leaves him feeling "alone" or incomplete..

Its the difference between having sex with someone you KNOW WANTS to have sex with you and is actually enjoying the expereince for themselves..and having sex with someone who ISNT but is doing it becasue YOU need it..Trying to "get into it" occassionally when meh..you could take it or leave it maybe sleeping sounds more appealing on occassion is different then trying to "get in the mood" many times more a month(or week) than is how your body NATURALLY ebbs and flows ..In other words I cant increase my "real desire" to WANTING sex almost every day from really enjoying sex once or twice a week..In fact trying to "force myself" to get into that much more frequently LOWERS my overall desire because I become desensitizied to the whole experience..the touching sensation is dulled..the mental stimulation is "blah" ...and emotionally I actually start to feel like my feelings arent as "important" as his so I feel "uncared for" when I want to feel wehn Im haivng sex with him VERY cared for and appreciative of HIS desire for me. Im to feeling that way ON purpose..just like he has a natural drive(and desire for me out of love) so do I ..mine can't be "radically ' changed just like his cant..So then the "sadness" or the "rejection " boils down to something about ME that I have little to NO control over ....

IOW just "complying" for the sake of the other one..is a TURN off for both people if its on a routine basis trying to have sex FAR more often than you really desire ..So instead of having PASSIONATE mutualy desired sex both feeling like they are givign AND recieiving but LESS "sex" overall.. ..you have a LOT of not so satisfying sex going on ...

PART and IMHO a big part of the enjoyment of sex is KNOWING you are giving ...if only ONE person in the equation feels like the "giver '(sense they are not WANTING anything in that regard other than to be a good spouse to the other one)..thats unsatisfactory for the one on the recieiving end..And myself personally if I had to over the years meet his libido needs I would have been having truly undesired sex the MAJORITY of the time not the occasional exception ..

Saying YES every time too..IN my situation ?Would have RUINED my sex life..( mean my personal sexual life and experiences).


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> So, I saw something mentioned in another thread about a spouse having the right to refuse their spouse sex. Personally, I cringe at this kind of talk. To me it sounds very selfish. Yeah, your body is yours and, to a certain point, I agree that we have the right to say no to sex when it's offered....but at the same time, I don't. On my wedding day my husband vowed to love and cherish me. I expected that this love and cherishing would be an _every day_ thing. He wouldn't wake up one morning and decide, "I want a break from loving her today, so I'm going to say no when she asks for some cuddle time." Likewise, I vowed to love and cherish my husband and he expected that it would an _every day_ thing.
> 
> I'm not saying that sex needs to happen everyday for every couple. Frequency should be decided by the couple. But love and intimacy of some kind, in my opinion, should be happening every day. Seeing our bodies as our own domain, as if our spouses need to ask permission before they dare to cross the threshhold, is something my husband and I disagree with entirely. He touch me wherever, whenever(for the most part. Certain time of the month excepted).
> 
> So, what about everyone else? Do you think you have the "right" to say no to sex and other forms of intimacy any time you wish?


It worked for my ex wife. But now, even she insists she is willing to give it up now that she's homeless.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh also at least NOW its out that hormonal BC cant devestate a womans libido..when I took it back in the 80's mid 90's that was not common knowledge and the doctor NEVER warned me..and I in reprspect know now I had "low libido" and that was the culprit..the problem is hwo my husbadn treated me over my "disenterest" which ai COULDNT help..IOW ask me why I dont want sex "I dont know I just dont it sounds "yuck"..We still had sex just less and less and I really wasnt usually "wanting"..anyway I remember him ironically watching me take my pill..and he said 'why even bother taking that if we never have sex"(never was a lie ..we did have sex ..just for an every day sometimes twice guy like him he was beign refused a LOT)..he told me I was "abnormal' ..he told me I didnt love him ..He was extremely hostile to me over it..that drove me away further to where I believed he cared little or nothing about me except stickign his thing in my vagina like I was a piece of meat..

My libido I doubt woudl have ever been near his desire BUT had I known hormonal BC was causing my "aversion " I would have gotten off of it..In fact the TORMENT it caused me makes me feel like I have a law suit on my hands for pain and suffering and mental anguish..

The point is treatign yoru spouse like **** in anger and hostility over it ..is mental abuse as well...Oh and my husband is also (or was until he GREW UP) one of the ones that believed I LOST the right to CONSENT the day we got married..


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

Jaquen when anyone discusses the 'right to have sex' then yes you automatically have to put 'rape' at one end of the spectrum and 'years of chronic rejection' at the other end. They're both extremes and they both happen, but everyone in the discussion is aware that most of the cases are somewhere in between, and want to avoid either extreme.

Thundarr my sex life hasn't been part of this discussion because I didn't want these kind of assumptions to be made (that I'm a sex-rejecting shrew or that I don't want to please my husband). My husband must be 'biologically' in the mood for us to have penetrative sex, so it's not a great leap to assume that so must I. How we get each other in this mood is a discussion in an entirely different language, and I can assure you that neither of us is going without. I still think it's important to retain my right to say no if for whatever reason I don't want another person inside my body at that moment, and my husband trusts that it's not to punish or spite him.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> _My husband must be 'biologically' in the mood for us to have penetrative sex, so it's not a great leap to assume that so must I. _How we get each other in this mood is a discussion in an entirely different language, and I can assure you that neither of us is going without. I still think it's important to retain my right to say no if for whatever reason I don't want another person inside my body at that moment, and my husband trusts that it's not to punish or spite him.


I totally agree.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> My husband must be 'biologically' in the mood for us to have penetrative sex, so it's not a great leap to assume that so must I.


EXACTLY... highly resent that because a man "not in the mood" its well..he cant help it..a woman not in the mood its still "physically possible' so she shoudl just do it..and a man can be "not in the mood" for mental and emotional reasons just like a woman can..(no desire in the mind affecting the body)..

Her mind should be dismissed and you just slap on enough lube and its "possible' or else shes selfish and "using sex as a weapon) or hell get over it and give oral..(ORAL IS SEX including its PENETRATIVE)..

IOW for a woman its rarely not LITTERALLY physcially possible how else CAN a woman be raped?women are VAGINALLY and other penetrative ways RAPED every single DAY..So saying unless its not "physically possible" is DISMISSING her mental and emotional state of mind..on top of her "wanting' or not physcially..

IOW you dont watn physcially ..you dont want emotoinally or menatlly or all of the above ..thats "no excuse" becaseu its physically possible for you to have sex..

Its PHYSICALLY possible for a woman in a COMA to have sex.Of course her mind isnt present..of course her emotions are non existent becasue she is unaware..but heck she can STILL physcially have sex..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> My issue with this is identicle to having sex when you dont want to...I dont WANT to have "conversation " with anyone let alone my husband knowing he really doesnt need that too..I don't WANT him to 'talk to me" knowing its "for me" and hes "doing it" out of "love" for me rather than hes into the conversation and really enjoys talking to me..if he doesnt ?Well then no thanks..I also in MHO think its quite bizarre to want to have sex with someone that you arent interested in even having conversations with.Or only beign "willing' to have a conversation with your OWN "for life" spouse thinking of it in terms of if I do that they should be willing to have unwanted or lets say "undesired" sex with me later on in "exchange' .....


That's what you got out that huh. Good luck with that reading comprehension and your marriage. I'll just say I LOVE to talk to my wife because I know she likes it. Guess you don't understand that either.



dallasapple said:


> Also the other problem is with even libido differences one spouse wants less the other wants more and the "gap" is significant..they KNOW this about each other ..the one who wants more "gets' the other to have sex REGULARLY when they are NOT into it..then the complaint is "but thats not satisfying to have sex knowing you really dont want to"..Well then WHY in the hell talk a person into having sex 4 to 8 times a week..


Sorry for you situation. 


Not sure why the extreme. Most everyone says the same thing and then here and there we get a long rant out of someone feeling accused I suppose


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also my understanding is men have a "refractory period" ..IOW once sexually satisfied he needs a "build up time"..before its reasonable for him to be able to achieve a full erection again..different factors play int that..some guys can go every 8 hours LOL>>>or 12 ..or 24..some are a couple of days..and that includes not just physical ability but for his MIND to build desire .. a longing in the mind AND the loins..

Well its WRONG to "expect him " or demand of him to "kick that up a notch"..or belittle or accuse or claim hes selfish for not being able to get a rock hard on 2 times a day (so she KNOWS he really wants) when he just doesnt have that in him..

Just same as its wrong to expect the woman to use artifical means to simulate arousal then tell her to add in the sound affects and movements that will "convince' the man shes really all in to it..

If men arent expected to FAKE sexual arousal and exitement then neither should a woman be..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If one spouse needs things like conversation, snuggle time, to feel provided for, to feel respected, etc then the other spouse should work to provide those needs.


Im sorry Thundar if I misunderstood you ..it was the phrase if ONE SPOUSE needs..Then the "work to PROVIDE it" ..that didnt sound like a "mutual need"..

but again sorry if I misread..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh but Thundar my other poitn was ..if conversation is NOT a need of my husbands I would rather him not "work to provide that for ME becasue he knows I LIKE IT" my point is I want to know he "needs" conversation with me to and he does it because we BOTH like it..

That was my point..if he had NO PERSONAL need to have conversation with me for his own fullfillment..and he has to "work at it " to provide that need FOR ME becasue he "loves providing me that " I wouldnt be interested..My enjoyment factor would go to "none' because half of it would be me wanting to know it was a MUTUAL desire for the actual conversation ..Not just a desire to "please me"..

I want HIM t be "pleased" with the conversation because he LIKES conversation with me..

Does that make sense?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> EXACTLY... highly resent that because a man "not in the mood" its well..he cant help it..a woman not in the mood its still "physically possible' so she shoudl just do it..and a man can be "not in the mood" for mental and emotional reasons just like a woman can..(no desire in the mind affecting the body)..


This is a lame argument. If men and women were equally likely to not want sex or to want emotional intimacy then I would agree. Biologically most men want sex more often than most women (I did not say all). Medical books and studies prove this and it's not an opinion. Men have 50 times more testosterone in there bodies and that's the primary reason why. 

Women "on average" are more likely to place importance on other things like emotional intimacy, stability, etc. I did not make it this way I'm just telling what science has proven. 

If you do not like sex often and your husband does want it often then something has to give. If he's happy getting much less than desired then it's working for you so I think you have a good solution.

I don't feel like a jack.ss for saying I would feel like my wife was not trying to meet my needs as much as I try to meet hers though. I would not want to be married if I don't try to meet her needs and she does not try to meet mine.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Im sorry Thundar if I misunderstood you ..it was the phrase if ONE SPOUSE needs..Then the "work to PROVIDE it" ..that didnt sound like a "mutual need"..
> 
> but again sorry if I misread..


Thank you dallas. I'm not sure my words always express my intent on here. Iooks like I have several pile on's and I really don't think I have a disrespectful attitude toward my wife's right to say no. Say does say no sometimes and I don't ask as often as I would like it because I know it's a compromise.

And yes I agree with the comment that it's my job to get her in the mood if she's not.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Oh but Thundar my other poitn was ..if conversation is NOT a need of my husbands I would rather him not "work to provide that for ME becasue he knows I LIKE IT" my point is I want to know he "needs" conversation with me to and he does it because we BOTH like it..


This is one then that I guess we disagree on. I read something that hit home with me about many marriages failing because each person was trying to give their spouse what they thought they wanted but as it turns out working hard to give someone else what you want in return is not always what they want and also not alway appreciated. To me it makes sense that I should try to give my wife what she wants and not what I want in return. Plus knowing she want's communication does make me enjoy it.




dallasapple said:


> That was my point..if he had NO PERSONAL need to have conversation with me for his own fullfillment..


My view is that I have a personal need to be there for my wife and knowing she likes to do something gives me an opportunity to.




dallasapple said:


> I want HIM t be "pleased" with the conversation because he LIKES conversation with me..
> Does that make sense?


Yes that does make sense. And that would be similar to your other argument that if you are not turned on then he should not want you to just have sex and not enjoy it.

My thoughts are more similar that it appears then. Luckily knowing that shes wants to talk actually makes me want to do that so have not had an issue with that. Regards to sex, I do think it's my job to actually get her in the mood and hopefully she's willing to see if I can do that.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

And I have PROOF...met men (and women) that KNEW the spouse had little to no "need" for sex..BUT out of lovign to "provide that need for the other one" they "worked hard at providign that need to the one that needed sex..they LOVED "pleasing" the spouse by providing them THEIR need for sex..

It brought them GREAT pleasure to know they "provided" for the sexual needs of the one that needed sex..Having no need themself for it BECAME the central focal point of the one that was recieving the "gift" of sex from the one that had NOT that need..

I cant just "give my husband sex for his NEED for it out of love..and "work hard" at making sure i PROVIDE him that need he has..a HUGE part of his NEED is that I NEED him too and hes GIVING to me during sex..Not just giving to me in the sense he HAS a need I can "fullfill him " but that I HAVE a need for "sex" that HE is fullfilling" 

Same goes with conversation ..

No one I've ever met..in a life long monogomous realtionship wants to be with someone who has no "need" for conversation " but out of love and the thrill of "providing " works hard to "provide that " for the other ..In turn ..NO one I have met in a life long monogomous relationship wants to be with someone who has no NEED for sex but out of love and the "thrill of providing " works hard to provide that for that other..

Its actually a very depressing scenerio..

I read one mans story YEARS ago..It "taught me " something..He had a LOVING adoring wife..who cared DEEPLY about his "needs" including HIS NEED for sexual relations..His own account she NEVER refused him ..she would "comply "(happily) to whatever he asked she would "do it"..It made HER happy to fullfill HIS sexual needs ..She however did not "enjoy" sex..IOW if shenever had sex again (if her husband stopped needing it) she wouldnt "miss it"..She loved doing it because HE liked sex..She was happy and proud to fulfill his "need"..

He was so depressed even though he got "plenty" of sex and whenever he asked and whatever he wanted..the fact she didnt need it left him feeling like he was "alone" in the process..It was ALL for him ..(excpet the fact she loved doign that FOR HIM)..he was ashamed he had fantasies of beign with a woman that SEX (the actual sex) was something she needed desired and enjoyed that HE could PLEASE her sexually"..that he could be GIVING her sexual pleasure..He didn't want to be "provided for" he wanted to "provide and know he brought SEXUAL pleasure to a woman..

I've heard the story reapeated in differnt ways..NO one 9usually) at least not on a regular basis wants to "recieve sexual pleasure" ..they want to also be GIVING sexual pleasure..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> If you do not like sex often and your husband does want it often then something has to give.


There is a difference between often and AS often..don't get those confused as well as everyone has their own definition of "often".

but to clarify I dont like sex AS (key word AS) often as my husband does..

Next thing I'l be saying I want celibacy in marriage..


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Also my understanding is men have a "refractory period" ..IOW once sexually satisfied he needs a "build up time"..before its reasonable for him to be able to achieve a full erection again..different factors play int that..some guys can go every 8 hours LOL>>>or 12 ..or 24..some are a couple of days..and that includes not just physical ability but for his MIND to build desire .. a longing in the mind AND the loins..
> 
> Well its WRONG to "expect him " or demand of him to "kick that up a notch"..or belittle or accuse or claim hes selfish for not being able to get a rock hard on 2 times a day (so she KNOWS he really wants) when he just doesnt have that in him..
> 
> ...


I'm not even sure at this point what your lengthy, almost scolding posts have to do with any conversation previously at hand, however I will say this: you are extremely overstating a man's refractory period. 

Are there men who need 8-24 hours before going again? Of course, and I imagine that's more prevalent for older men. But trust me when I say that a lot of us can go again in under an hour.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> It brought them GREAT pleasure to know they "provided" for the sexual needs of the one that needed sex..Having no need themself for it BECAME the central focal point of the one that was recieving the "gift" of sex from the one that had NOT that need..
> 
> I cant just "give my husband sex for his NEED for it out of love..and "work hard" at making sure i PROVIDE him that need he has..a HUGE part of his NEED is that I NEED him too and hes GIVING to me during sex..Not just giving to me in the sense he HAS a need I can "fullfill him " but that I HAVE a need for "sex" that HE is fullfilling"
> 
> ...


Ahh. more extremes. If we are talking about these scenarios where one spouse hates sex and the other hates conversation then I have nothing to say about them. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about normal people who actually should be married and want to be married.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I'm not even sure at this point what your lengthy, almost scolding posts have to do with any conversation previously at hand, however I will say this: you are extremely overstating a man's refractory period.
> 
> Are there men who need 8-24 hours before going again? Of course, and I imagine that's more prevalent for older men. But trust me when I say that a lot of us can go again in under an hour.


"almost scolding" LOL!!

Thats a new one on me..

Oh and Im sure "a lot of you can go again in under and hour" Im married to one..but try 4 times in 3 hours..and then be scolded and called selfish ..PICK YOUR # and whatever your PERSONAL limit is be told you are withholding selfish unloving and to DO IT anyway ..O.K ???


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Ahh. more extremes.


Its an extreme to ask "do you have the right to say no to sex" ..so ......


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Ahh. more extremes. If we are talking about these scenarios where one spouse hates sex and the other hates conversation then I have nothing to say about them. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about normal people who actually should be married and want to be married.


If you are "normal " and want to be married having "conversation with your spouse shouldnt be beign comapred to having sex with them..as an "exchange' for you do for me (conversation ..I do for you sex) thats VERY abnormal to even draw the parallel..

Its actually sad(but not the first time I;ve seen it) where some person compares TALKING to who they are married to ..to having sex with them..its quite sick in my book actually..


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> .but try 4 times in 3 hours..and then be scolded and called selfish ..PICK YOUR # and whatever your PERSONAL limit is be told you are withholding selfish unloving and to DO IT anyway ..O.K ???


You seem to be applying your extreme, unusual, and dysfunctional experience with the greater, standard norms that the rest of us are discussing.

That's where the communication breakdown is coming in here. We're talking more typical fare, and you're responding from a place of extremes.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Its an extreme to ask "do you have the right to say no to sex" ..so ......


The question "do you have the right to say no to sex" is neither the topic of this thread, nor a question anybody else has posed.


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

Not having sex everytime my husband wants it, or the other way around doesn't mean we love or cherish each other any less. I think that implication is disgusting and self-righteous. My husband and I only have sex, when we both want to have sex. Having sex out of obligation is not worth having at all. Neither of us would get fulfillment out of it, and if he pressured me or wouldn't take no for an answer when I wasn't in the mood, I would feel as if I had been raped. Being married doesn't mean I have to do what he wants when he wants.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Jane_Doe if you seriously think people are suggesting that marital rape is OK when they talk about "entitlement", then you have missed the point totally.
> 
> To be entitled to something means that you have a right to something. Marital vows give each person the right to sex within the marriage. When marrying you VOW to forsake all others, and enter into a contract of sexual monogamy. To what degree those terms can be fulfilled depends on the couple, and some level of compromise needs to be worked out so that all parties are reasonably fulfilled. Nobody in this conversation who believes in entitled sex is making that synonymous with the loss of the right to say no. I myself have said that both my wife and I feel very comfortable turning now sex anytime we want, for whatever reason we like, with the understanding that this can NOT become a trend, or develop into an overall routine of chronic rejection.
> 
> ...


This is what I've been trying to say. Thank you.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Actually, unless there is illness or a health issue, a spouse that REJECTS another spouse, and does it repeatedly is guilty of passive-agressive behavior and control issues.
> 
> When you marry or are in a committed relationship and are living together and sleeping in the same room/bed, then it is implied that intimacy and sexual contact are part of the agreement. If a spouse and/or SO does not want to be a part of that "unsaid" agreement, then they need to find someone who feels the same way.
> 
> ...



This is exactly how I feel on the subject. I get rejected all the time, so i have given up.. It is NOT OK to always reject someone. We all know that one of 2 things will happen or both

1. Getting sexual gratification met by someone out side the marriage

OR

2. leave and file for D


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> I WOULD LOVE IT IF MY HUSBAND WANTED SEX EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.
> 
> Guess I'm the odd ball out, huh?



Me too, we are both odd balls i suppose.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

does a spouse have a right to reject sex, yes.

does the rejected spouse deserve an explanation, yes

if the explanation doesnt satisfy and the rejection continues does the rejected spouse have the right to pack their stuff and set out to find a more compatable person to meet their needs, yes


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

Tikii said:


> Not having sex everytime my husband wants it, or the other way around doesn't mean we love or cherish each other any less. I think that implication is disgusting and self-righteous. My husband and I only have sex, when we both want to have sex. Having sex out of obligation is not worth having at all. Neither of us would get fulfillment out of it, and if he pressured me or wouldn't take no for an answer when I wasn't in the mood, I would feel as if I had been raped. Being married doesn't mean I have to do what he wants when he wants.


NO. But it is a compromise.
It is two people, two feelings, two minds, two bodys, two, two, two of everything!!!!
the relationship isnt made jsut for one side.
The rejection a person bestows upon their partner when they are trying to love you emotionally and physically is abusive.
There should be no need to say NO i am not in the mood.
I watched several therapist talk about how it wasnt good in the relationship to say No i dont want to. But instead say can we try later or lets relax right now and we will later. Dont jsut put it off completely. It is the same as wanting your partner to listen to you. If yo uare speaking and they say i dont want to listen to you right now, thats abusive. All needs are to be met in the relationship, if you feel the need to talk with him he needs to listen, if you feel the need to cook for him, he needs to eat.
Compromise, compromise


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Tikii said:


> Not having sex everytime my husband wants it, or the other way around doesn't mean we love or cherish each other any less. I think that implication is disgusting and self-righteous. My husband and I only have sex, when we both want to have sex. Having sex out of obligation is not worth having at all. Neither of us would get fulfillment out of it, and if he pressured me or wouldn't take no for an answer when I wasn't in the mood, I would feel as if I had been raped. Being married doesn't mean I have to do what he wants when he wants.


Interesting. I have had "obligatory" sex with my husband at times, and it was incredibly fulfilling for both of us. Now, I didn't lay back and think of England; I participated and tried to make it as fun for me as I could. I wasn't pressured into it, but he did give me a massage and...other things to warm me up. It helped a little, but _I_ was the one who decided I was going to do it _and enjoy it_ even though I wasn't in the mood. Too many women(including me) allow their feelings to sway them when, in reality, they should be in control of them. 

No, being married doesn't mean you have to do what he wants when he wants. But that goes the other way; he shouldn't have to _not_ do what he wants just because you don't want to do it. Which is why there should be plenty of compromise between spouses, so neither spouse controls the sexual relationship. I know some people think the lower drive spouse should set the frequency and that is a concept I utterly reject. Neither should set the frequency by themselves. It should be something they both put effort into to find a middle ground where the HD doesn't feel rejected, and the LD doesn't feel forced and pressured.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Don't you people have spouses that you're actually ATTRACTED to, and who likewise know how to turn you on even when you're off?

I get so baffled reading all these stories from people acting like the stars need to align in the heavens before you might have sex.

Let me tell you, if I'm not in the mood, but my wife really wants it, she knows how to press my buttons to get me there. And if my wife isn't, and I really am craving it, I know how to get the woman's panties wet even when she was nowhere near being in the mood. This isn't 100% foolproof, but damnit if you're actually very SEXUALLY ATTRACTED to your spouse, and vice versa, you can have tons of sex even when one party isn't necessarily in the mood at the start.

Press some buttons! Get your freak on! Stop treating sex like it's the lottery!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Don't you people have spouses that you're actually ATTRACTED to, and who likewise know how to turn you on even when you're off?
> 
> I get so baffled reading all these stories from people acting like the stars need to align in the heavens before you might have sex.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

My thoughts precisely.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Don't you people have spouses that you're actually ATTRACTED to, and who likewise know how to turn you on even when you're off?
> 
> I get so baffled reading all these stories from people acting like the stars need to align in the heavens before you might have sex.
> 
> ...


It is not all physcial though.
Mentality has much to do with these buttons being pushed.
its easier said than done sometimes.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

bkaydezz said:


> It is not all physcial though.
> Mentality has much to do with these buttons being pushed.
> its easier said than done sometimes.


I didn't suggest it was all physical. That depends on the buttons of the individual people.

But my damn, a lot of the people I've encountered on this board aren't even TRYING to step outside their comfort zone. I mean lots of things life are "easier said than done", but you still learn to DO them. 


Some (not all mind you) people need to do less talking, less thinking, and take much more action. 

If you find yourself chronically not in the mood, then it doesn't hurt anybody to try and get in the mood. Some people need to be honest and tell their spouses how they like to be turned on, because a lot of the times "not in the mood" means "not turned on by a damn thing you do".

And still some people out here need to come to terms that they just aren't that sexually attracted to their spouse, and vice versa. Honestly, and nobody likes to mention that much here, but there is often a core LACK of purely sexual attraction there which makes a lot of these people feel very comfortable rejecting, or being rejected by, their spouses time and again.

Some of the posts on this thread are written by people who very obviously either lost that sexual hunger, or are with people who've lost it.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> When obligatory sex happens every once in awhile, it's way easier to let go and get into it eventually. When it starts out obligatory more than not, that is a huge issue and just going with it attaches more and more resentment to the act to the point where obligatory sex begins to feel like torture. The resentment gets pinned onto sex and creates a negative cycle. Sometimes it might be better to hold off sex so that something that should be awesome doesn't end up being the lightening rod for resentment and let it remain awesome, you know?


I see what you're saying. I still don't think that obligatory sex has to be a negative thing. I think it can be negative, but I don't think it _has_ to be. Even if it is taking place more often than not. It's really up to the person having obligatory sex. They can decide to try and enjoy it, or they can decide to hate it. But that is entirely up to them.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I didn't suggest it was all physical. That depends on the buttons of the individual people.
> 
> But my damn, a lot of the people I've encountered on this board aren't even TRYING to step outside their comfort zone. I mean lots of things life are "easier said than done", but you still learn to DO them.
> 
> ...


Do you think that would also be a reason for your partner to stop telling you how beautiful, sexy, pretty etc, that you are?

you can pm if you want so we dont highjack.
you seem to have a good take onthese types of things!!!

Yes.
That makes plenty of sense to me!!!


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

bkaydezz said:


> Do you think that would also be a reason for your partner to stop telling you how beautiful, sexy, pretty etc, that you are?
> 
> you can pm if you want so we dont highjack.
> you seem to have a good take onthese types of things!!!
> ...


No, I think this line of discussion is right on topic with the OP!

Yes, and here is my pet peeve with TAM. There is so much good advice here, but there is a tendency to make EVERYTHING so deep, involved, and complex. And sometimes it just is not.

If you've been with somebody long enough, it's natural for the old compliments to wane somewhat. I know I've been guilty of that in the past with my wife. You get in a routine, and BAM, before you know it you've not told your lover how special you think they are, or how handsome/sexy/pretty/etc you find them.

But here is the thing, people get married for a lot of different reasons. And frankly a lot of people who are NOT sexually compatible, or even all that sexually attracted to one another, tie the knot every single day. It is so possible, and even common, to walk into a marriage with somebody who you never really had great sexual chemistry with to begin with, and overtime that just becomes even worse. And to take matters from bad to horrible, what happens when one spouse was very attracted to their SO, but the other spouse never felt that way?

And yes, horrible as it is, people do lose sexual attraction overtime. Nobody wants to admit that. Nobody wants to sounds shallow, or bored. They don't want to say "well you know, my husband was just sexier 60 pounds ago", or "no, I really don't think my wife is as hot as she was 10 years ago". And who wants to be honest about the fact that, at the end of the day, they've grown sexually bored with their spouse? What about the people who think their spouse has always been a ****ty lover? These are very common place, but people just want to hide behind a bunch of "deep" explanations sometimes.

I just think a lot of people on this board are not attracted to their lovers in that hungry, tear-your-clothes-off, excited by the very touch of you, way.

Sometimes, unfortunately, when the compliments have dried up, the advances have stopped, and the sex has dried up, the core issue is a lack of sexual attraction.

That, or they don't feel like the quality of sex is even worth the effort.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> I think that depends on the reasons that obligatory sex is happening.
> 
> If it's happening more than not just because an LD spouse is trying to compromise with an HD spouse AND the HD spouse is taking the time out to try and turn their partner on in the best way they know how, sure it's easier to flip the negative/positive switch. Not all of us are mentally perfect in that way, but it seems that that is the best case scenario
> 
> ...


I think it's unloving for a HD spouse to pout and act like a jerk to the LD spouse. It certainly won't help the LD spouse to feel sexy and loved.


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## ObjectOfAffection (Jul 12, 2012)

Like Jaquen said, I think a lot of people enter into marriages where they just aren't sexually compatible. This was the case for me. I said in my original post that I was LD with my ex husband. 

I have since found out that I can be very, very HD with the right partner.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

jaquen said:


> No, I think this line of discussion is right on topic with the OP!
> 
> Yes, and here is my pet peeve with TAM. There is so much good advice here, but there is a tendency to make EVERYTHING so deep, involved, and complex. And sometimes it just is not


I'll have to agree. I can't say that people here are wrong, but i often ask myself, is a relationship really that deep and complicated?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dallas,
By the exact same logic a HD partner could say to their LD spouse: 
- I ONLY want to have sex when you know it is going to be great for YOU
- I am not ok with you being the "giver" on nights you don't get aroused, even if you like doing that because you like making me happy

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
As for talky talk: 
It will only feel like "pity" conversation if it is obvious his heart isn't in it. 




dallasapple said:


> Oh but Thundar my other poitn was ..if conversation is NOT a need of my husbands I would rather him not "work to provide that for ME becasue he knows I LIKE IT" my point is I want to know he "needs" conversation with me to and he does it because we BOTH like it..
> 
> That was my point..if he had NO PERSONAL need to have conversation with me for his own fullfillment..and he has to "work at it " to provide that need FOR ME becasue he "loves providing me that " I wouldnt be interested..My enjoyment factor would go to "none' because half of it would be me wanting to know it was a MUTUAL desire for the actual conversation ..Not just a desire to "please me"..
> 
> ...


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

bkaydezz said:


> NO. But it is a compromise.
> It is two people, two feelings, two minds, two bodys, two, two, two of everything!!!!
> the relationship isnt made jsut for one side.
> The rejection a person bestows upon their partner when they are trying to love you emotionally and physically is abusive.
> ...


Having the right to refuse sex isn't making the relationship one sided in any way at all. Compromising doesn't mean having sex out of obligation, or any time that my husband wants it, or any time I want it. Not being in the mood to have sex is FAR from being emotionally and physically abusive, and I am so thankful that my husband and I don't believe in such a way.

All needs being met doesn't mean that any time one wants to have sex the other has to do it. I am emotionally and physically attentive to my husband in every way, and we both work very physically and emotionally draining jobs that send us home tired. Being too tired to stay awake, or falling asleep when we say let me relax for a few is far from being neglectful(which would be a more appropriate term than abusive).

My husband and I have a great relationship, we know how to compromise, and neither of us feel that it requires sex on demand.




Created2Write said:


> Interesting. I have had "obligatory" sex with my husband at times, and it was incredibly fulfilling for both of us. Now, I didn't lay back and think of England; I participated and tried to make it as fun for me as I could. I wasn't pressured into it, but he did give me a massage and...other things to warm me up. It helped a little, but _I_ was the one who decided I was going to do it _and enjoy it_ even though I wasn't in the mood. Too many women(including me) allow their feelings to sway them when, in reality, they should be in control of them.
> 
> No, being married doesn't mean you have to do what he wants when he wants. But that goes the other way; he shouldn't have to _not_ do what he wants just because you don't want to do it. Which is why there should be plenty of compromise between spouses, so neither spouse controls the sexual relationship. I know some people think the lower drive spouse should set the frequency and that is a concept I utterly reject. Neither should set the frequency by themselves. It should be something they both put effort into to find a middle ground where the HD doesn't feel rejected, and the LD doesn't feel forced and pressured.


The few times in our marriage that I have had obligatory sex, I participated as normal, but it was not emotionally or physically satisfying for me. I was unable to reach climax and it made me feel withdrawn after we finished. I felt worse than if we had not done it at all. These were not voluntary feelings and I would have wished for things to have felt as they usually did, and nothing I did could make it feel right.

Compromise doesn't mean always giving in to what he wants, because he shouldn't not get what he wants. You are all acting as if because I don't feel like sex should be whenever someone wants it, that we have a horrible sex life, or that one of us or the other controls the sexual relationship. That is not the case at all.


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Don't you people have spouses that you're actually ATTRACTED to, and who likewise know how to turn you on even when you're off?
> 
> I get so baffled reading all these stories from people acting like the stars need to align in the heavens before you might have sex.
> 
> ...


I am VERY attracted to my husband, and he is VERY attracted to me as well. That doesn't mean that everytime that one of us wants to have sex that the other is on board. We have a very compatible sex life, and a healthy sexual relationship, but that still doesn't mean we believe that we should alway have sex when the other want it. My husband and I have sex regularly, and damn near tear each other's clothes off to get there. It's funny to me that people here seem to think that if you don't have obligatory sex that you don't have a healthy sex life.

My husband and I both know how to get each other in the mood when we aren't, but that doesn't always work. Either because one of us is insanely tired, sore(from physical jobs) etc. Just because views don't line up doesn't mean our sex lives suck.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> "almost scolding" LOL!!
> 
> Thats a new one on me..
> 
> Oh and Im sure "a lot of you can go again in under and hour" Im married to one..but try 4 times in 3 hours..and then be scolded and called selfish ..PICK YOUR # and whatever your PERSONAL limit is be told you are withholding selfish unloving and to DO IT anyway ..O.K ???


See I think your husband has made you angry regarding this subject because he's being completely unreasonable. So I understand why you have your thoughts on this but I think they're jaded because of your personal experience which seems rare to me.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> If you are "normal " and want to be married having "conversation with your spouse shouldnt be beign comapred to having sex with them..as an "exchange' for you do for me (conversation ..I do for you sex) thats VERY abnormal to even draw the parallel..
> 
> Its actually sad(but not the first time I;ve seen it) where some person compares TALKING to who they are married to ..to having sex with them..its quite sick in my book actually..


I'm glad we read different books. I was actually talking about needs. Emotion intimacy is very much a need similar to physical intimacy. I personally try to give my wife what she needs and she does the same for me. I guess that's confusing or disgusting or something. Thanks for judgement though. Now I can go cry.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Tikii said:


> I am VERY attracted to my husband, and he is VERY attracted to me as well. That doesn't mean that everytime that one of us wants to have sex that the other is on board. We have a very compatible sex life, and a healthy sexual relationship, but that still doesn't mean we believe that we should alway have sex when the other want it. My husband and I have sex regularly, and damn near tear each other's clothes off to get there. It's funny to me that people here seem to think that if you don't have obligatory sex that you don't have a healthy sex life.
> 
> My husband and I both know how to get each other in the mood when we aren't, but that doesn't always work. Either because one of us is insanely tired, sore(from physical jobs) etc. Just because views don't line up doesn't mean our sex lives suck.


:scratchhead:


I'd love to know what this has to do with my post, which you quoted.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Tikii said:


> I am VERY attracted to my husband, and he is VERY attracted to me as well. That doesn't mean that everytime that one of us wants to have sex that the other is on board. We have a very compatible sex life, and a healthy sexual relationship, but that still doesn't mean we believe that we should alway have sex when the other want it. My husband and I have sex regularly, and damn near tear each other's clothes off to get there. It's funny to me that people here seem to think that if you don't have obligatory sex that you don't have a healthy sex life.
> 
> My husband and I both know how to get each other in the mood when we aren't, but that doesn't always work. Either because one of us is insanely tired, sore(from physical jobs) etc. Just because views don't line up doesn't mean our sex lives suck.


Sounds like you two work well together. I am wondering if the OP had thought about frequency of rejection. Say you've asked for some love making everyday for 10 days and out of those you've been rejected 9. Would this be acceptable to you? Nobodys sick, or tired, or unhealthy in anyway. Just "not in the mood." Say those rejections continue over weeks, months and years. Is this okay?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Sounds like you two work well together. I am wondering if the OP had thought about frequency of rejection. Say you've asked for some love making everyday for 10 days and out of those you've been rejected 9. Would this be acceptable to you? Nobodys sick, or tired, or unhealthy in anyway. Just "not in the mood." Say those rejections continue over weeks, months and years. Is this okay?


Sure it's okay. It's also predictable that the rejected spouse would feel like they did not matter at all to that partner and would eventually divorce them. That would definitely be an irreconcilable difference. Looky there. A name for it


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> See I think your husband has made you angry regarding this subject because he's being completely unreasonable. So I understand why you have your thoughts on this but I think they're jaded because of your personal experience which seems rare to me.


Nobody told the gentleman that had a wife that only had sex with him TWENTY times in TWELVE years that he was angry and jaded form his experience which is VERY rare and that we are talkign about normal "healthy" relationships (which is another comment someone else made regarding those of us who dont believe our spouses have the RIGHT to have every sexaul urge met with rare exceptions or that the LOWER(NOT LOW LOWER with an ER )drive spouse should routinely have obligatory sex to close the gap with the higher drive spouse..Especially in cases where the higher (with an er) drive spouse does have a far above average drive.

And Im sorry I think my experience is MORE common than one spouse LITTERALLY going for close to a year in between 'desire" year in and year out for over a decade..Oh and that starts on the honeymoon..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEBut, unfortunately if our spouses drive way outpaces ours with all other things perfectly aligned, it is not just a matter of pushing the right buttons, it's that even with all of the right buttons pushed, nothing will turn on because we are out of gas][/QUOTE]

This is exactly it..sure occassionally if you arent necessarily in the "mood" sexually "buttons can be pushed and that can change..But for me anyway as I think you mentioned the "arousal" cycle can not be ACCELLRATED to increase my frequency of desire and my ability to get sexual satisfaction far more than my body and MIND are set at permamently ..(my frequency of desire can not be changed permenently that is)

Everyone as far as I understand needs a build up time..time to BUILD desire..at least for me having sex is the RELEASE of that which has built up in the body AND mind..then I am spent..and need time to build up again...Its like expecting someone to "miss you " when they arent away from you ..Absence makes the heart grow fonder comes to mind..

Also to the person who asked arent you even attracted to your spouse..Of course I am ...clothes being torn off..you betcha..there is a difference in having NO attraction ..or NO sexual chemistry and a mismatched drive as it pertains to frequency..My husband and I have tremendous sexual chemistry when it comes to that we are a fabulous match as to intensity..I just am not as FRQUENTLY feeling that super charged sexual chemistry as he is...And no amount of "button pushing" or sexy talk is going to make that change in fact as was mentioned trying to force myself (regularly) to make that happen I never have a NATURAL or genuine build up..I never get a chance to build up to the level that I "feel" that super charge..

The point is just because one person has high level of sexual desire LESS often than the other doesnt mean there is no attraction and no sexual chemistry ..or that they are somehow frigid or being "selfish"..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Sounds like you two work well together. I am wondering if the OP had thought about frequency of rejection. Say you've asked for some love making everyday for 10 days and out of those you've been rejected 9. Would this be acceptable to you? Nobodys sick, or tired, or unhealthy in anyway. Just "not in the mood." Say those rejections continue over weeks, months and years. Is this okay?


I think if you know you would rather have no sex with your spouse ever again or do anything else with them ever again than what sounds living with sex 3 times a month then thats your decision and you should divorce..It wouldnt seem you have much else going on in the marriage in that case but wanting "more' sex out of them anyway...

I guess its up to each person how much value they put on frequency..the same question could be asked but up the number to you ask for sex 10 days in a row its accepted every 3rd day you are still being rejected 7 times out of 10...even though averaged out you are having "regular sex' ..I mean I consider sex 2 times a week or 9 times a month regular sex..even though at the same time technically you can say you are being "regularly rejected".


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

and a rejecting spouse knows, without a doubt, that the marriage cannot last if they do not meet the needs of their spouse, yet they seldom change the pattern (this is particularly true for sex, but can also apply to emotional needs equally)


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think if you know you would rather have no sex with your spouse ever again or do anything else with them ever again than what sounds living with sex 3 times a month then thats your decision and you should divorce..It wouldnt seem you have much else going on in the marriage in that case but wanting "more' sex out of them anyway...
> 
> I guess its up to each person how much value they put on frequency..the same question could be asked but up the number to you ask for sex 10 days in a row its accepted every 3rd day you are still being rejected 7 times out of 10...even though averaged out you are having "regular sex' ..I mean I consider sex 2 times a week or 9 times a month regular sex..even though at the same time technically you can say you are being "regularly rejected".


Good to read.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> But for me anyway as I think you mentioned the "arousal" cycle can not be ACCELLRATED to increase my frequency of desire and my ability to get sexual satisfaction far more than my body and MIND are set at permamently ..(my frequency of desire can not be changed permenently that is)


The fact that many women and men have seen long lasting shifts in their "arousal cycle", in both increase, and decrease, suggests that human beings do not have a "permanently set" cycle.

If that were true than it would suggest that the "arousal cycle" you have as a 15 year old would be the same "arousal cycle" you have when you're 80.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I know we all try to minimize our spouses hurt feelings and while I might be a little ticked off if he said "I'm tired, I don't want to talk tonight" I'd actually be way more relieved than if he half-assed a conversation when he really didn't feel like it. Sometimes we can't help hurt feelings but the reaction is all on us.


Here is my deal with that..just like with sex I can TELL when my husband is distracted and isnt in the "talkative " mood and VICE versa..many times hes motor mouthy and my head is FULL and I just have a hard time focussing if he doesnt get my vibe I will just say Im sorry I cant focus right now...Im expecially that way in the morning unless its IMPORTANT he knows not to hit me up with one topic after the other..If Im talking to him and he has that sort of "glazed" over eye look and does the ole ..hmm hmm...I just say you seem distracted we will talk later..

I dont try and "get him in the mood to talk"..or just keep talking knowing its one sided and it most likely is irritating him at the time he prefers silence..Because I KNOW how that feels..And its selfish and unloving to push myself on him ..I dont need an explanation or a raincheck either..I know good and well eventually he will be in the mood to talk ..I guess I just know my husband well enough to know he ENJOYS talking ..just not every single time I feel like it..and vice versa..but in the end we manage to have "regular talks"..when both are in the mood..Sometimes I initiate a conversattion and hes all ears..sometimes he does and Im all ears...

If he suddenly stopped wanting to talk to me..the issue would not be hes not talking to me..the issue would be more like WHY did he stop wanting to talk to me EVER..otherwise the times he seems disinterested I ASSUME the best and that is he has a lot of things on his mind..Or maybe we have "over talked" and he needs to retreat into his own mind for a while..(I know because I get that way)..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The fact that many women and men have seen long lasting shifts in their "arousal cycle", in both increase, and decrease, suggests that human beings do not have a "permanently set" cycle.
> 
> If that were true than it would suggest that the "arousal cycle" you have as a 15 year old would be the same "arousal cycle" you have when you're 80.


yes I understand there are "seasons" in most peoples drives.What I mean is you cant FORCE someone into a different arousal cycle that for them its their NATURAL cycle even for that season.At least not to a new shall I say a radical change in their "temporary norm"..

I will say my husbands drive has changed LITTLE since I met him at 16 and he is 46..Maybe hes an exception for duration of arousal cycle seasons..

Im the stereo typical around mid 30's hitting 40 my "interest' peaked...I also think though thats partially due to not having any babies(after 28) ...and beign more comfortable with my sexuality..(accepting myself as a sexual human being with no shame)..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

okeydokie said:


> and a rejecting spouse knows, without a doubt, that the marriage cannot last if they do not meet the needs of their spouse, yet they seldom change the pattern (this is particularly true for sex, but can also apply to emotional needs equally)


I disagree the marriage may not last DEPENDING..on what else you have good going and how I would say "severe" a need is being neglected verses how many needs as well ARE being met....IOW we arent all going to always meet every emotional (including sexual because sexual is also and emotional need in marriage for men and women ) and physical needs 100% perfectly..100% of the time..we ALL fall short .well most of us anyway...

I have emotional needs(that are most peoples to some extent) my husband has never "fullfilled"..in fact he pretty much did the opposite of that need.. but however poorly he failed at it the marriage has lasted because I have "accepted" he wasnt purposely trying to hurt me and I was asking him for something that didnt come naturally to him that made him feel "awkward"..and not only that there are to many other things about him that are wonderful that I have decided I could "trade him in " for someone else who is GREAT at that one emotional need I had but just royally sucked at many others..And Im attached to my husband we have an enormous bond that cant be traded in for a "need" I have that he just wasnt good at..Yes not having that need met hurt..yes not havign that need met at times interfered with my ability to feel close to him and "cracked" at the bond..never the less we still have something solid to hang on too..Just because there are a few dings in the paint job LOL>>>and maybe sometimes we have to pump the gas peddle to get the thing started the car still runs at times like you are driving a cloud..those times are worth cherishing and looking forward to ...

IOW my husband KNOWS I have that need he knows hes "rejected" the importance of it to me or minimized it in order to justify him not having to force himself to fullfill it..But he doesnt "know without a doubt the marriage can not last" because he hasnt and doesnt fullfill a need of mine because Im not going anywhere..Why would I ?All I would be doing was throwing away a good but imperfect man for what?Another good but imperfect man?Or worse a bad imperfect man..

Plus I love him ..and we have hot sex..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Nobody told the gentleman that had a wife that only had sex with him TWENTY times in TWELVE years that he was angry and jaded form his experience which is VERY rare and that we are talkign about normal "healthy" relationships (which is another comment someone else made regarding those of us who dont believe our spouses have the RIGHT to have every sexaul urge met with rare exceptions or that the LOWER(NOT LOW LOWER with an ER )drive spouse should routinely have obligatory sex to close the gap with the higher drive spouse..Especially in cases where the higher (with an er) drive spouse does have a far above average drive.
> 
> And Im sorry I think my experience is MORE common than one spouse LITTERALLY going for close to a year in between 'desire" year in and year out for over a decade..Oh and that starts on the honeymoon..


I think all of our opinions are affected by our history including mine and whoever you were referencing. To me it seems like you've been treated unfairly and abusive by your husband but I guess I'm not a fly on the wall.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I think if you know you would rather have no sex with your spouse ever again or do anything else with them ever again than what sounds living with sex 3 times a month then thats your decision and you should divorce..It wouldnt seem you have much else going on in the marriage in that case but wanting "more' sex out of them anyway...
> 
> I guess its up to each person how much value they put on frequency..the same question could be asked but up the number to you ask for sex 10 days in a row its accepted every 3rd day you are still being rejected 7 times out of 10...even though averaged out you are having "regular sex' ..I mean I consider sex 2 times a week or 9 times a month regular sex..even though at the same time technically you can say you are being "regularly rejected".


:iagree: I agree with you on this one dallas. I think wanting sex every single day and then being mad and rejected when that does not happen is selfish The requesting spouse has to understand they are asking for too much frequency.

I saw a show on TV where there was a dating service or support group or something where people who did not like sex at all were looking for partners. I think it works fine when both go into marriage with accurate expectations. Maybe poor communication at the onset is the real problem.


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## Tikii (Jun 21, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Sounds like you two work well together. I am wondering if the OP had thought about frequency of rejection. Say you've asked for some love making everyday for 10 days and out of those you've been rejected 9. Would this be acceptable to you? Nobodys sick, or tired, or unhealthy in anyway. Just "not in the mood." Say those rejections continue over weeks, months and years. Is this okay?


My husband and I went through a period about three years ago, where we didn't have sex regularly for nearly 3 months. I had suffered a miscarriage and was no in a mood to have sex at all. I rejected him regularly, and he was completely understanding. There was no issue in our relationship. Eventually things went back to normal, and I doubt that he even remembers that period in our relationship. I think there are circumstances where that kind of thing happens. Not being in the mood can be a result of depression or other emotional issues that should be dealt with, and not ignored. Over months, given certain situations sure, rejection constantly for years, no.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Rejection is the mode of choice for some spouses. It's up to the person who is being denied to say if he or she wishes to continue with the program. 
A good example might be that if one spouse has to deal with some medical issue which prevents them from comfortably having intercourse but still provides an alternative to help placate their partner.
Now at some later date, should the rolls be reversed and the person who was taken care of before, yet now refuses to reciprocate, then only a fool would agree to stay in that relationship and continue to be treated as a second class citizen.
(I was the fool for much of twenty years, but no more)


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Tikii said:


> The few times in our marriage that I have had obligatory sex, I participated as normal, but it was not emotionally or physically satisfying for me. I was unable to reach climax and it made me feel withdrawn after we finished. I felt worse than if we had not done it at all. These were not voluntary feelings and I would have wished for things to have felt as they usually did, and nothing I did could make it feel right.


I'm sorry that this happened for you. I will say that everyone is different, and of course every couple is different. I wish I knew what it was in my relationship that made obligatory sex fulfilling, but whatever it is it works. I will say that I have never been pressured into sex even once, and I've never been made to feel guilty if something kept me from having intercourse with my husband. That could be why obligatory sex for us is very gratifying. I've reached climax before(hubs insists on it) during it and was much happier that we had done it than I would have been if we hadn't. 



> Compromise doesn't mean always giving in to what he wants, because he shouldn't not get what he wants. You are all acting as if because I don't feel like sex should be whenever someone wants it, that we have a horrible sex life, or that one of us or the other controls the sexual relationship. That is not the case at all.


No one has said that at all. In fact, everyone here has said that saying no every once in a while is fine. But _true_ compromise has to take place on both sides of the relationship. If the HD spouse is expected to put up with less sex than they desire, than the LD should also be expected to put up with more. The key is finding that middle ground where _both_ spouses are fulfilled, and neither one feels taken advantage of. That middle ground is up to the couple themselves. But no one here has said that having a LD is wrong or evil or unloving.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> Sounds like you two work well together. I am wondering if the OP had thought about frequency of rejection. Say you've asked for some love making everyday for 10 days and out of those you've been rejected 9. Would this be acceptable to you? Nobodys sick, or tired, or unhealthy in anyway. Just "not in the mood." Say those rejections continue over weeks, months and years. Is this okay?


Frequency is something that should be left up to each individual couple. And no, if those rejections continue over weeks, months, and years, I would say that that is _not_ okay.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

As a husband I strive to always meet my wife’s emotional, financial, and physical needs. I do a pretty good job most of the time. When I fail I am man enough when confronted to look at the situation and if I am wrong then I correct it.

I am a HD spouse and my wife is a LD. We compromise because I consider her LD and she considers my HD. My wife feels like sex 1-2 times per month but she cares about our relationship and considers me, and compromises for me. If my wife stuck to her 1-2 times month then I would first try to reason with her. If she said I AM ENTITED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS and it is 1-2 times a month and that is it no compromise then there would be some adjustments taking place.

The first adjustment would be that her attitude would force me into the bartering position. I would say ok I feel like supporting you emotionally, financially, and physically 1-2 times a month. Since I provide 80% of the finances then that would put my wife in a very bad position. *That is what the I AM ENTITLLED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS will get you.* 

If the stand off continued for a very long time I would divorce her and get a more balanced and caring and compromising woman. Fortunately I have a good woman that is not a I AM ENTITLLED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS kind of woman.

I have not read all this thread but I did read a few by CREATEDTOWRITE and MARRIEDWIFEINLOVE. I hope their husbands treat them like Queens! Those women will make a good man even better. They are jewels! A man that strives to meet his wife's emotional. physical snd financial needs will make that jewel of a woman shine even brighter!

*Marriage includes the three Cs.; caring, compromise, and considerations.* The I AM ENTITTLED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS is a killer to the three Cs and is very selfish IMO.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

hookares said:


> Rejection is the mode of choice for some spouses. It's up to the person who is being denied to say if he or she wishes to continue with the program.
> A good example might be that if one spouse has to deal with some medical issue which prevents them from comfortably having intercourse but still provides an alternative to help placate their partner.
> Now at some later date, should the rolls be reversed and the person who was taken care of before, yet now refuses to reciprocate, then only a fool would agree to stay in that relationship and continue to be treated as a second class citizen.
> (I was the fool for much of twenty years, but no more)


I believe my wife had serious medical/psych issues. I asked her to get help, she refused. I stayed. I sometimes think that I was a fool for doing so.


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## Biscuits (Aug 2, 2012)

Ladies, if your man wants sex and you dont, you deny us. Is we try to go any further after the "I have a headache/my back hurts/Im so tired" we sleep on the couch.

Ladies, if you want sex from your man, and he denies you. We sleep on the couch.

Maybe if women werent so controlling about when/where/why they gave up sex, it wouldnt be a big issue.

Funny story, my wife and I went abour 5 days after we were married without having sex...(busy at the time). So, she tried and I wasnt in the mood at all after a very long day at work. She got mad and told me that I needed to sleep on the couch, which I did, for the next 10 days. Eventually she came out of her comfy bed and got mad that I didnt want to be with her...."funny because YOU'RE the one that kicked me out"...you cant have your cake and eat it too ladies.

Dont with hold and then get mad when it happens to you.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But my damn, a lot of the people I've encountered on this board aren't even TRYING to step outside their comfort zone. I mean lots of things life are "easier said than done", but you still learn to DO them.
> 
> 
> Some (not all mind you) people need to do less talking, less thinking, and take much more action.


I love your posts jaquen, but in this quote I disgaree (because I think you are referring to the HD people. If you are talking about LD spouses, then I retracted the following comment because it obviously doesn't apply).

It's easy to step out of your comfort zone and initiate when you aren't being rejected, or rejected not very often. I know for myself, if I was being rejected say 25% of the time or less, I'd be very aggressive. It's easy to be aggressive and push for what you want when you know three out every four times (or more) you pursuing is going to result in a trip to the bedroom and some happy, passionate love making shortly there after.

When you are getting turned down more often that not, you don't feel that way at all. You don't want to put all that energy into things when you're just going to get 'sorry, I'm not in the mood' regularly.

I've come to that point myself. I rarely put in extra effort. I did yesterday morning. Got up before she did, went and had a nice shave and shower, put on some nice aftershave, got back into bed naked and started spooning her and rubbing her arms. She woke up, we lay in bed for about 10 minutes, then she wanted to get up and have a coffee. I suggested she stay, and she gave me a few reasons not to before finally saying "I just don't feel like it."

When this becomes the norm, you don't see the benefit of even put in extra effort. I'm starting to get to the point where I don't ask now, I just sit back and wait for her to ask me. That way I don't have to wonder if she's in the mood, plan out a course of action and try and get her going. **** it, I'll just sit back and she can tell me when it's go time. I know this could build resentment down the line, but for now I'm tired of playing the game.

And I'm not implying we don't have regualr sex, we do, but it's just not when I'm trying for it. It's when she asks a day or two after I've been turned down. This would be fine if I wasn't being turned down so often. It's nice to be able to have sex when your raring to go for your woman, not two days later when you're just pent up and needing a release because you've been in the mood for her for so long. It dulls it somewhat.



Biscuits said:


> Ladies, if your man wants sex and you dont, you deny us. Is we try to go any further after the "I have a headache/my back hurts/Im so tired" we sleep on the couch.
> 
> Ladies, if you want sex from your man, and he denies you. We sleep on the couch.
> 
> ...


Why are you sleeping on the couch?

I made a deal with my partner years ago. This is just as much my house as it is yours (technically all mine since I own the house, but I've always told her it's mine and hers), so who are you to throw me out of MY bedroom?

If she were to throw me out, it had better be for a damn fine reason, and pestering her about sex (which I don't do anyways) isn't a good reason. Without a good reason (such as an affair), she'd get to do it once because within 24 hours there would be a realtor sign on the front lawn and we'd each be looking for a new home - seperately.


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## bkaydezz (Jul 9, 2012)

yea biscuits put your foot down.
i would have slept right next to her. if she didnt like the idea so much of you being in their, she would get her butt up and go to the couch.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I love your posts jaquen, but in this quote I disgaree (because I think you are referring to the HD people. If you are talking about LD spouses, then I retracted the following comment because it obviously doesn't apply).


I hate for you to have wasted a perfectly good post, but yes sir, I was talking about the LD spouse.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I hate for you to have wasted a perfectly good post, but yes sir, I was talking about the LD spouse.


Oh well, I didn't have anything else to do anyways.  Good to see we are on the same page.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> *Nobody told the gentleman that had a wife that only had sex with him TWENTY times in TWELVE years that he was angry and jaded form his experience which is VERY rare and that we are talkign about normal "healthy" relationships (which is another comment someone else made regarding those of us who dont believe our spouses have the RIGHT to have every sexaul urge met with rare exceptions or that the LOWER(NOT LOW LOWER with an ER )drive spouse should routinely have obligatory sex to close the gap with the higher drive spouse..Especially in cases where the higher (with an er) drive spouse does have a far above average drive.*
> And Im sorry I think my experience is MORE common than one spouse LITTERALLY going for close to a year in between 'desire" year in and year out for over a decade..Oh and that starts on the honeymoon..


Well, I am that that gentleman and I certainly hope for everyone's sake that my story is a rare one. It was not a healthy relationship at all although I did love my wife very much.

I was a very shy introvert who considered himself very lucky to win the love of this young woman who was so loving up to the wedding day.

I will assume a portion of the blame in this for not having the courage to forcefully confront her, not to demand sex but to insist that she receive medical help.

She has been dead for twenty years and the regret of not standing up to her has been the biggest of my life.

Today I am alone because the constant rejection, even though I know it wasn't all my fault, has left me with low self esteem, low self confidence, and at my age a realization that time has about run out for me to have a "normal" life

And yes, I am angry at her though I still love her


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> As a husband I strive to always meet my wife’s emotional, financial, and physical needs. I do a pretty good job most of the time. When I fail I am man enough when confronted to look at the situation and if I am wrong then I correct it.
> 
> I am a HD spouse and my wife is a LD. We compromise because I consider her LD and she considers my HD. My wife feels like sex 1-2 times per month but she cares about our relationship and considers me, and compromises for me. If my wife stuck to her 1-2 times month then I would first try to reason with her. If she said I AM ENTITED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS and it is 1-2 times a month and that is it no compromise then there would be some adjustments taking place.
> 
> ...


"I am entitled to my body _over your needs always_" yes, is definitely selfish. No one here has advocated such a stance. 

However, that doesn't mean that sexual intimacy isn't an entitlement within the marriage bed. My husband would never see his sexual needs as more important than my emotion ones. Which is why he often postpones any sexual advances until after my needs have been met. Likewise, I would never see my emotional needs as more important than his sexual ones. Which is why I often postpone any cuddling I may want until after he's been satisfied. 

Cause, remember, it's just as selfish to say "I am entitled to my emotional needs over your sexual needs always".


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

No. A spouse has the right to leave if they aren't happy.l They don't have the right to pretend to the world to be married while serially rejecting their mate. Forcibly transforming a healthy heterosexual into a celibate wage-slave is immoral. Can't stand your spouse? Leave. Hostage taking and slave holding are wrong. If you aren't a loving spouse or trying to be a loving spouse, hit the bricks.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> He was so depressed even though he got "plenty" of sex and whenever he asked and whatever he wanted..the fact she didnt need it left him feeling like he was "alone" in the process..It was ALL for him ..(excpet the fact she loved doign that FOR HIM)..he was ashamed he had fantasies of beign with a woman that SEX (the actual sex) was something she needed desired and enjoyed that HE could PLEASE her sexually"..that he could be GIVING her sexual pleasure..He didn't want to be "provided for" he wanted to "provide and know he brought SEXUAL pleasure to a woman..
> 
> I've heard the story reapeated in differnt ways..NO one 9usually) at least not on a regular basis wants to "recieve sexual pleasure" ..they want to also be GIVING sexual pleasure..


That might be this guy's attitude. But, I don't think this is the attitude of most men. From what I've seen, many men would be happy with wives who lovingly provided sex even when not horny. IMO, it's not ideal, but it's far better than waiting for a very LD person to feel like it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> "I am entitled to my body _over your needs always_" yes, is definitely selfish.


This is what my wife told me once... I'm still meeting her emotional needs. I think I can't be arsed to argue anymore...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> No. A spouse has the right to leave if they aren't happy.l They don't have the right to pretend to the world to be married while serially rejecting their mate. Forcibly transforming a healthy heterosexual into a celibate wage-slave is immoral. Can't stand your spouse? Leave. Hostage taking and slave holding are wrong. If you aren't a loving spouse or trying to be a loving spouse, hit the bricks.


Love this post!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> This is what my wife told me once... *I'm still meeting her emotional needs.* I think I can't be arsed to argue anymore...


Why?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> Why?


Because I'm a nice guy?  Since I'm not leaving (kids), I've decided to carry on normally. Can't deal with upset people, distressed kids and non stop drama when I'm really busy with work. But the truth is that I'm not really in love with her anymore, so it doesn't matter to me. Being nice to her is easier.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Because I'm a nice guy?  Since I'm not leaving (kids), I've decided to carry on normally. Can't deal with upset people, distressed kids and non stop drama when I'm really busy with work. But the truth is that I'm not really in love with her anymore, so it doesn't matter to me. Being nice to her is easier.


Sorry about that. I guess all my words of wisdom :soapbox: are for another thread.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Sorry about that. I guess all my words of wisdom :soapbox: are for another thread.


No worries... I'm over being upset about it. Life is ok, not great, but I've come to terms with it.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But here is the thing, people get married for a lot of different reasons. And frankly a lot of people who are NOT sexually compatible, or even all that sexually attracted to one another, tie the knot every single day. It is so possible, and even common, to walk into a marriage with somebody who you never really had great sexual chemistry with to begin with, and overtime that just becomes even worse. And to take matters from bad to horrible, what happens when one spouse was very attracted to their SO, but the other spouse never felt that way?


Personally I think this is a huge mistake and may be the root of a lot of these issues. Why would anyone who values sex overlook the fact their future spouse does not and marry them anyhow? Sex is not the only area where you need to be compatible to form a solid foundation but I think it is one of them. To me it would be like marrying a short person and then spend the rest of your marriage resenting the fact they're short. 

I'm wondering if a lot of the debate in this thread is in fact just a difference in terms of reference. I think some see this as a situational thing..i.e. at anyone point in time can a spouse say no to sex and others see it in general terms.. i.e. should someone feel entitled to have regular sex with their partner for the duration of the marriage. For me the answer to both is yes.


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## Gorky75 (Aug 22, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> So, I saw something mentioned in another thread about a spouse having the right to refuse their spouse sex. Personally, I cringe at this kind of talk. To me it sounds very selfish. Yeah, your body is yours and, to a certain point, I agree that we have the right to say no to sex when it's offered....but at the same time, I don't. On my wedding day my husband vowed to love and cherish me. I expected that this love and cherishing would be an _every day_ thing. He wouldn't wake up one morning and decide, "I want a break from loving her today, so I'm going to say no when she asks for some cuddle time." Likewise, I vowed to love and cherish my husband and he expected that it would an _every day_ thing.
> 
> I'm not saying that sex needs to happen everyday for every couple. Frequency should be decided by the couple. But love and intimacy of some kind, in my opinion, should be happening every day. Seeing our bodies as our own domain, as if our spouses need to ask permission before they dare to cross the threshhold, is something my husband and I disagree with entirely. He touch me wherever, whenever(for the most part. Certain time of the month excepted).
> 
> So, what about everyone else? Do you think you have the "right" to say no to sex and other forms of intimacy any time you wish?


Ah, yes they have the right to refuse you as much as they want. They are individuals first. Marriage does not change that. They can do as they please.

Having said that, it does not mean you have to like it or want to be with that person. They do what they want, then you make a decision about what you want to do as a result. Of course it is not quite so dramatic in reality, it involves a lot of conversation and compromise and hope it never gets to a decision to stay or leave.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Created2write
> "I am entitled to my body over your needs always" yes, is definitely selfish. *No one here has advocated such a stance.*


*Did I misunderstand the posts below?
How do you interpret the posts below?*



> Post 65
> I might regret giving my opinion later, *but my personal opinions put personal bodily integrity over anything else, including the vows I took*
> So yes, I believe we absolutely have the right to say no as often or as little as we like, however much it may 'upset' someone else.Post 101
> I still think it's important to retain my right to say no if for whatever reason I don't want another person inside my body at that moment






There are people that have the stance of "I am entitled to my body over your needs always" See post 175 below 
Post 175


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Created2Write
> "I am entitled to my body over your needs always" yes, is definitely selfish.
> *This is what my wife told me once... *I'm still meeting her emotional needs. I think I can't be arsed to argue anymore...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> [/B]*Did I misunderstand the posts below?
> How do you interpret the posts below?*
> 
> 
> ...


And your point is?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> Did I misunderstand the posts below?
> How do you interpret the posts below?
> 
> ...





> By In Absentia
> And your point is?



My point is that it seems that there are people that advocate the stance of 
“I am entitled to my body over your needs always”

Part of my post was in answer to Created2write that stated that “No one here advocated such a stance” It seems to me that there are peole that advocate that stance. *Did I read your post wrong? You seem to indicate that your wife advocates this stance.*


> Quote:
> By Created2write
> "I am entitled to my body over your needs always" yes, is definitely selfish. *No one here has advocated such a stance*


.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> My point is that it seems that there are people that advocate the stance of
> “I am entitled to my body over your needs always”
> 
> Part of my post was in answer to Created2write that stated that “No one here advocated such a stance” It seems to me that there are peole that advocate that stance. *Did I read your post wrong? You seem to indicate that your wife advocates this stance.*
> .


yes, I did, sorry. Didn't make the connection between the post above and the ones below...

My wife advocates this stance indeed. I suppose because women think they are at the "receiving end"? Having said that, we all own our own body, so you should be entitled to use how and when we like it. In a marriage situation, it's more complicated, especially when there are sexual problems. That stance - with which I agree generally - can be used as a weapon.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I'm wondering if a lot of the debate in this thread is in fact just a difference in terms of reference. I think some see this as a situational thing..i.e. at anyone point in time can a spouse say no to sex and others see it in general terms.. i.e. should someone feel entitled to have regular sex with their partner for the duration of the marriage. For me the answer to both is yes.


:iagree:

I think this is half the problem with threads like this; it's all about the interpretation of the question being asked. There's a big difference between declining sex _occasionally_ because one party isn't in the mood, and regular rejection.


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## Jane_Doe (Aug 9, 2012)

I just wrote a whole long post but I mis-pressed some buttons and everything's gone!

Anyway. No one here has said 'I don't ever want sex with my spouse but I want them to provide for me emotionally and financially'. In fact I think the asexual partner in all these sexless marriages we hear about is mysteriously absent from this thread. 

Besides, emotional intimacy and physical intimacy I can understand being linked and traded, but if financial reimbursement is someone's idea of motivation for someone to fulfill their physical needs, then perhaps a wife isn't what they need after all.

Plus, I think every woman (or LD partner) who has posted in this thread does only and exactly what THEY want, even the obligatory-sex people. That makes me happy. No one has truly given up their right to reject, because most posts contain a 'get out of jail free card', since they retain their right to refuse if they are sick or sore all over or asleep as soon as their head hits the pillow. If you legitimately didn't have this right, then all you could say is 'FYI, it's a bloody mess down there, but have at it'.

If it turns out you are perfectly satisfied with the occasional obligatory-sex to bridge the gap, then that's all well and good. But I don't like when unhappy husbands in other marriages think that we should all have obligatory sex whether we like it or not because they're sure that would please our own husband. That's where my stuff about 'bodily integrity' comes into play. At the end of the day, no one can tell me/coax me to put something in my body if I don't want it there. At best it's disrespectful and at worst it's... well let's not go there actually. My husband already knows this as a basic fact of existence, I didn't have to teach him. We just agree.

But then, that's probably why I'm Jane Doe and not Jane Blunt.

P.S. I think the discussion now is more about 'the best way' to deal with the naturally occurring 'gap' between sex drives, which can either lead to long-term rejection or occasional rejection depending on how big the gap is.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> [/B]*Did I misunderstand the posts below?
> How do you interpret the posts below?*
> 
> 
> ...


No, you misunderstood. No one here has advocated the rights of sex _above_ the emotional needs of the other spouse. What _has_ been said is that both sexual needs and emotional needs are _equally_ important. 

The second post you quoted isn't saying that sex is always more important than emotional needs, it's saying that any spouse has the right to say no to sex as often or as little as they like. 

The last one isn't being quoted in context.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> My point is that it seems that there are people that advocate the stance of
> “I am entitled to my body over your needs always”
> 
> Part of my post was in answer to Created2write that stated that “No one here advocated such a stance” It seems to me that there are peole that advocate that stance. *Did I read your post wrong? You seem to indicate that your wife advocates this stance.*
> .


Again, you've misunderstood. No one has advocated sex being more important than emotional needs. What has been advocated is sexual needs and emotional needs being of equal importance in marriage.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Jane_Doe said:


> Anyway. No one here has said 'I don't ever want sex with my spouse but I want them to provide for me emotionally and financially'. In fact I think the asexual partner in all these sexless marriages we hear about is mysteriously absent from this thread...
> 
> 
> ...If it turns out you are perfectly satisfied with the occasional obligatory-sex to bridge the gap, then that's all well and good. But I don't like when unhappy husbands in other marriages think that we should all have obligatory sex whether we like it or not because they're sure that would please our own husband. That's where my stuff about 'bodily integrity' comes into play. At the end of the day, no one can tell me/coax me to put something in my body if I don't want it there. At best it's disrespectful and at worst it's... well let's not go there actually. My husband already knows this as a basic fact of existence, I didn't have to teach him. We just agree.


I can't even begin to understand the concept of obligatory sex, either. The only time I'd decline sex with my partner is if I knew that I was _incapable_ of being 'present.' In which case it would be impossible for me to entertain "obligatory sex." Furthermore, if I felt capable of offering a "substitute," I wouldn't be declining sex in the first place. Why? Because I love my partner and I love sex.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I think this is half the problem with threads like this; it's all about the interpretation of the question being asked. There's a big difference between declining sex _occasionally_ because one party isn't in the mood, and regular rejection.


Very well said. I'm new to TAM and stumble here when thinking and googling about my marriage as we're close to 20 years  I'm glad I stopped following this thread for a few days, I almost lost sight of the forest from the trees.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Gorky75 said:


> Ah, yes they have the right to refuse you as much as they want. They are individuals first. Marriage does not change that. They can do as they please.
> 
> Having said that, it does not mean you have to like it or want to be with that person. They do what they want, then you make a decision about what you want to do as a result. Of course it is not quite so dramatic in reality, it involves a lot of conversation and compromise and hope it never gets to a decision to stay or leave.


Everyone has the right to "reject" their spouse for sex. What they don't have is the right for that rejection not to have a negative effect on their marriage.

Every decision you make where you go agaisnt your spouse has that negative effect. Most of the time, it is so small as to not matter. The positive actions far outweigh them. But, like water dripping on a rock, the cumulative effect, if not countered, can erode the marriage. To think otherwise is foolish.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEWhat they don't have is the right for that rejection not to have a negative effect on their marriage.][/QUOTE]

I agree but that goes for MANY things in marriage..I would dare to say EVERYTHING in marriage..as far as "decisions" being made where there is a "disagreement" one wating something and the other rejecting the idea..

If my husband desperately wanted one more child..I certainly have the right to "reject him " that desire..(I can not be FORCED to have another child)..but I dont have the "right" for that not to negativley affect the marriage..\\

Movign to another city...taking a job you really want..aquring a new pet..

Litterally EVERTYHING...all the way down to how you choose other to dress or hairstyle..time spent together (non sexual ) INFINITY..

EVERY situation that your sppouse would "like something " that you choose to reject becaseu of course you have the right to ..can "nagatively affect the marriage" and you dont have the "right " for it not too..


In short you are stating the obvious..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTE Most of the time, it is so small as to not matter. ][/QUOTE]

Thats a huge assumption to make in general about everyone..

As well as reluctantly bending to anothers will when its clear and you have made it clear its not your true desire..also doesnt give the person who got their way on it the RIGHT to not have it negativley affect the marriage..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Everyone has the right to "reject" their spouse for sex. What they don't have is the right for that rejection not to have a negative effect on their marriage.
> 
> Every decision you make where you go agaisnt your spouse has that negative effect. Most of the time, it is so small as to not matter. The positive actions far outweigh them. But, like water dripping on a rock, the cumulative effect, if not countered, can erode the marriage. To think otherwise is foolish.


I like the way you put it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> I like the way you put it.


Thank you. My actions effect my wife and hers effect me. People rightly stand by their right to control their own body, but then seem genuinely perplexed and even offended that their spouse has an independent negative reaction. I am not saying that my wife's reaction is more valuable than mine. But it is there, and absolutely needs to be taken into consideration when I make decisions. To ignore that is to act single. That is not a good scenario for any marriage.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Thank you. My actions effect my wife and hers effect me. People rightly stand by their right to control their own body, but then seem genuinely perplexed and even offended that their spouse has an independent negative reaction. I am not saying that my wife's reaction is more valuable than mine. But it is there, and absolutely needs to be taken into consideration when I make decisions. To ignore that is to act single. That is not a good scenario for any marriage.


Right. And, in my opinion, when we're selfish and self-centered as spouses, we're more than likely only going to do the bare minimum we need to to keep our marriage functioning. That isn't a successful relationship, and, unfortunately, it seems to me that far too many people settle for "functioning" instead of "successful". 

My pre-marriage councilor told my husband and I that a truly loving wife puts her husband's needs before her own, and a truly loving husband puts his wife's needs before his own. As hard as it is to do, it has been true in our relationship. We have failed at this so many times, but we recognize and try to start again. We refuse to settle for "satisfactory".


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Jane Doe*But then, that's probably why I'm Jane Doe and not Jane Blunt


.

Since I am Mr Blunt it appears that you are addressing your post to me.
That seems fair as my main point was taking into consideration your posts 65 and 101 which are reprinted below




> *By Jane Doe*Post 65
> I might regret giving my opinion later, but my personal opinions put personal bodily integrity over anything else, including the vows I took
> 
> So yes, I believe we absolutely have the right to say no as often or as little as we like, however much it may 'upset' someone else.
> ...



*Your statements above seem to me to be saying “I AM ENTITTLED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS.” Am I wrong?*

My main point was that any person in a marriage that takes the position reprinted in quotes above seems to me to be selfish.

*Jane I will ask you a straight forth question. Do you agree or disagree that taking the position of I AM ENTITTLED TO MY BODY OVER YOUR NEEDS ALWAYS” is selfish?*
If you think different than me that is ok but that is not going to stop many marriages from having trouble with the attitude of: 



> *By Jane Doe*
> 
> my personal opinions put personal bodily integrity over anything else, including the vows I took
> 
> ...


If your attitude has resulted in a close and fulfilled marriage then more power to you and your husband. However, it is my position that an attitude like that does not build a close and loving marriage in many cases.

The title of this thread is 
Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse?

My answer would be YES; spouses at times under certain circumstances have the right to reject their spouses.
However, to inform your spouse that you hold your attitude of rejection to take precedence over anything else including the vows, and that you have the “…absolute right to say no as often as you like…” and “for whatever reason” seems counterproductive to a close relationship in marriage.

Jane you seem a little defensive and a little overly aggressive on this issue


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


Not me! If sex is regular and there isn't prolonged rejection...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


That sounds more extreme than my view. I think the feeling of it being a "spousal duty" is part of what causes the problem. Some people would not be in the mood purely because they feel like they are being forced into it. If they could somehow decide they want to try for the sake of the marriage and if the HD could somehow understand how feeling pressured causes some of the problem.... 

*I DONT KNOW? This topic is getting more and more difficult for me to have anything constructive. It did not seem so difficult. I think there are too many variable and scenarios.*


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


Content...No. But I did do exactly that for ten years. She took something special and corrupted it into a traumatic painful experience.

Long term effects are bad. I actually am bothered more by the nearly sexless marriage than her serial adultery (which I see as almost a symptom of the sexless marriage). So, how bad? Sex in my mind is completely ingrained now with a lot of overwhelming negative emotions. It is closely associated with rejection, pain, frustration, feeling like a loser, feeling shame and guilt, hate, anger, disgust, not being desirable, not being loveable, regret, resentment, etc. Also don’t forget the dark fantasies, violent thoughts, and seeing your spouse as your opponent and nemesis. And well... I’ve got just one primary person to blame for why I feel those awful things; My wife.... because she didn’t want to feel like her only value to me was sex. And the self-immolation is just as bad looking back and never quite understanding why I didn’t leave or go out and find something better myself.... 

It has been difficult to shut those things down without also shutting down the good feelings. So, its wreaked havoc in my ability to express love or really even feel it. So many conflicting thoughts and emotions. Understand too... my wife was literally the third time having sex (the others were ONS) and we married on the youngish side. So this is my only ‘example’ of what sex and love look like... Mental. Crazy thing is I honestly believe the sex I would have gotten in an affair would have been a better example of what a healthy sex life might feel like. And I feel I've earned a series of affairs... if only I could shatter my morals too.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> .
> 
> Since I am Mr Blunt it appears that you are addressing your post to me.
> That seems fair as my main point was taking into consideration your posts 65 and 101 which are reprinted below
> ...


Ahh, I see what you meant now Mr. Blunt. I apologize for the misunderstanding. And I agree with you.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


This is a really general idea. The first is the assumption that "spousal duty sex" or "obligatory sex" _can't_ be enjoyable. There are husbands and wives who do their best to make obligatory sex enjoyable for their spouse. I'm sure there are some who just take it, and let their spouse lay back and think of England, which doesn't seem right to me. But my husband is one, when I say I'm not in the mood but I'm willing to try, the first thing he wants to do is give me oral. Before he even gets anything. _I_ am the one who either agrees to the oral or doesn't, and if I'm not in the mood during intercourse, I recognize that I had a chance to be and didn't take it. 

You also seem to be implying that spouses _shouldn't_ be content with sex that their partner does "for the sake of the marriage" if their partner isn't into it at that time. Why is that wrong? And to answer your question, yes, some of us are content to either accept sex from our partner, even if they're not into it, or to give sex to our partner even if we're not fully into it. 

I could be misunderstanding your question, and if I am, I'm sorry.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Why is doing something for your spouse, like having sex when you're not in the mood, so often seen as something that's negative?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Why is doing something for your spouse, like having sex when you're not in the mood, so often seen as something that's negative?


I don't think it's negative per se (my wife does it for me - she decides and gets in the mood), it becomes negative when it happens frequently or all the time...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?



Me personally? Nope. But can we be real? For as long as sex has existed many men have been perfectly content with disconnected sex. A warm hole is all a lot of men need.

It seems odd to me that here at TAM people talk about obligatory, disconnected sex as though it were something rare, and considered deeply unsatisfying in general. I mean we're still in a relatively new phase of understanding, and celebrating, female sexuality. Before the sexual revolution it was not at all uncommon for men (and many women) to not even consider whether a woman wanted sex from her spouse, or what her level of enjoyment was. Spousal duty sex use to be the norm.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Why is doing something for your spouse, like having sex when you're not in the mood, so often seen as something that's negative?


I can't figure out that one either. We do a lot of things for each other on a daily basis that we would not do otherwise.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I can't figure out that one either. We do a lot of things for each other on a daily basis that we would not do otherwise.


well, having sex is a very personal thing, on many levels... I cook for my wife... I wouldn't put it on the same level, although I'm a very good cook.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


Why is doing something for the sake of the marriage a bad thing? I watch certain movies with my wife because she likes them. I love her, it makes her happy, and it helps my marriage. I can name dozens of those things, from taking out the garabage to killing spiders. She does comparable things for me as well (laundry being the big one).

I think if "spousal duty sex" is the norm, there is a problem. But my wife having sex with me because she loves me and knows it is important to me, even when she is not that into it herself, is her showing her love for me. So I accept this show of love, which probably happens less than once a month.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

In Absentia said:


> well, having sex is a very personal thing, on many levels... I cook for my wife... I wouldn't put it on the same level, although I'm a very good cook.


Honestly, that's your personal bias. It is that way for you. I know three women (my wife included) and several guys where sex isn't a personal thing... It's a casual thing. These types can have friends with benefits, hookups, etc. and not think twice about it having any deeper connection. "Its just sex." in their minds and some fun. 

And I am more like you.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> well, having sex is a very personal thing, on many levels... I cook for my wife... I wouldn't put it on the same level, although I'm a very good cook.


I guess so. It seems like marriage is very personal in everything that you do for each other though. But I get your point. It's more intimate.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I would think if there's one place in marriage where spouses should do their best to be available for one another, even if they're not that into it, sex would be close to the top of the list _because_ it is so intimate and personal.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think Race eluded to very good point earlier. It emotional intimacy is missing the spouse can get that from fiends. If physical intimacy is missing then the spouse has no where to go and still stay loyal. It's just missing.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

But emotional intimacy being missing in between the spouses can NOT be made up for by (or gotten by) friends..its still MISSING in the marriage which creates a distance..and its just not the same with friends not only that if emotional intimacy is missing then that also means the sex will be not be the same.it would similar in "depth and meaning to having sex with a stranger..a stranger who you are married to..I dont want to have sex with someone I have no emotional connection with outside of bed that would just be having sex strictly for the physical release..

But the bigger point is emotional intimacy outside of the marriage(with friends) is not the SAME as the emotional intimacy I have with my spouse..

I dont want to just screw my husband to get off..then get up and go call a "friend" to share my inner most thoughts with...and them me..share laughs together...and to have someone to lean on and them me and bodn with them EMOTIONALLY..then hop back in the bed with my husband for sexual release..its absurd to to me..I (mysefl personally ) can not have the entire "bond" or any bond most likely if there is not emotional connection outside of bed and If sex is the only "initmacy" shared..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> But emotional intimacy being missing in between the spouses can NOT be made up for by (or gotten by) friends..its still MISSING


Good point. It is a need being met though. Just not in the best way. In other words I agree it's not a replacement. EDIT: JUST POINTING OUT THAT I CONCEDED IT'S NOT A REPLACEMENT SINCE I GET BLASTED IN UPCOMING FROM POST



dallasapple said:


> if emotional intimacy is missing then that also means the sex will be not be the same.it would similar in "depth and meaning to having sex with a stranger..a stranger who you are married to..I dont want to have sex with someone I have no emotional connection with outside of bed that would just be having sex strictly for the physical release..


I think usually neither are missing or they are both missing.



dallasapple said:


> But the bigger point is emotional intimacy outside of the marriage(with friends) is not the SAME as the emotional intimacy I have with my spouse..


Same here. That's how it should be. EDIT: WOW LOOK THERE. ANOTHER AGREEMENT.



dallasapple said:


> I dont want to just screw my husband to get off..then get up and go call a "friend" to share my inner most thoughts with...and them me..share laughs together...


Who would think that's okay. Not me for sure but it's usually not so black and white as what you portray. That's a pattern I notice on TAM is for us to take extreme scenarios and then debate them rather than understanding that most of us would agree with a LOT of what's in the middle of the issue. I'm guilty of it myself. EDIT: AND PROVEN SHORTLY.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

No I dont think its an extreme..if someone says you can get your emotional needs met somewhere else(friends) but not sexual..thats what the scenerio would look like if you were attempting to do that.

Including the fact the need woudl NOT be met being that I NEED an emotional connection with the person Im having the MOST Intimate relations with you can have with another human bieng or else the sexual intimacy would also be an emotional "void"..

A HUGE driving force for the passion and desire I feel in my mind and body for my husband comes directly from the emotional connections we feel outside of bed..Sex for me is an EXPRESSION of an emotional connection I already feel..and as well as a "solidfier" and a strengthener of the existing bond..and of course a natural biological need is present for sexual release but its with HIM and him only I want that because of a closeness I feel (hopefully LOL) from the other 99% of our time together..If the majority of time we interact (which even with frequent sex is a drop in the bucket of time spent) no emotional needs are being met then all it would be is having sex with a body strictly for the biological part..


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

If my sex life with my wife has no emotional connection I might as well masturbate.
I don`t see the point in being inside a woman who doesn`t really want you there.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

tacoma said:


> If my sex life with my wife has no emotional connection I might as well masturbate.
> I don`t see the point in being inside a woman who doesn`t really want you there.


Right and if my LIFE outside of sex my husband and I had no emotional connection I might as well masturbate..the "sex" would not create the bond emotionally of husband and wife bond it would just be 'having sex' for purely sexual relief.

I could have sex with a stranger that I was atracted to "physcially" that I dont even know their name and get that much out of it..


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I dont want to just screw my husband to get off..then get up and go call a "friend" to share my inner most thoughts with...and them me..share laughs together...and to have someone to lean on and them me and bodn with them EMOTIONALLY..then hop back in the bed with my husband for sexual release..its absurd to to me..I (mysefl personally ) can not have the entire "bond" or any bond most likely if there is not emotional connection outside of bed and If sex is the only "initmacy" shared..



This reminds me of just how radically our perception, and expectations, of marriage changed during the 20th century.

I wonder if marriages survived in centuries past not only because of social stigmas against divorce, but also because we expect SO much more from the institution than our ancestors did. It is a relatively modern concept that one's spouse be their go-to source for all emotional, psychological, and physical needs. There was a time in western civilization (and still currently in many others worldwide) where the scenario you outlined above was indeed the norm for marriage. Husbands would seek out the company of other men for friendship and support, and wives would do the same with women. Spouses were not always expected to be best friends, confidants, and the main well source for emotional support.


It reminds me that we put a TON of pressure on modern marriages. Now the spouse is suppose to be the end all, be all for all your needs. Now the spouse is suppose to be your financial supporter, your very best friend, a great lover, a romantic poet, your eternal soulmate, and a psychologist, all rolled up into one.

If you've been one of the people who is able to find that all rolled up into one spouse, that's amazing, and a blessing. But I wonder if a lot of marriages are failing because people are expecting things from the institution that human beings use to not require as prerequisites when defining a "successful marriage".

The more pressure we put on marriages to be a full service station, the more marriages seem to be crumbling under the sheer weight of that pressure.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> It is a relatively modern concept that one's spouse be their go-to source for all emotional, psychological, and physical needs.


Let me clarify ..I did not mean "all" or 100%...But i would say a very important and the #1 "source"..

Having said that I dont think its a "negative' to have this new modern concept..Just like its not a bad thing that its a relativley new modern concept that a husband can rape his wife...that used to be an oxy-moron..."old ways" werent always "better ways"..


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This reminds me of just how radically our perception, and expectations, of marriage changed during the 20th century.
> 
> I wonder if marriages survived in centuries past not only because of social stigmas against marriage, but also because we expect SO much more from the institution than our ancestors did. It is a relatively modern concept that one's spouse be their go-to source for all emotional, psychological, and physical needs. There was a time in western civilization (and still currently in many others worldwide) where the scenario you outlined above was indeed the norm for marriage. Husbands would seek out the company of other men for friendship and support, and wives would do the same with women. Spouses were not always expected to be best friends, confidants, and the main well source for emotional support.
> 
> ...


While I think marriages survived for different reasons as well inthe past, I also don't think we place a higher level of pressure on marriage now, just a different strand of pressure.

Marriage 100 years ago for example was based on a woman staying home, a man going to work, and varying degrees of time together. Everyone had very clear and defined roles, and many families were able to make ends meet on one income.

These days, there is a much greater sharing of duties. Dad's for example are far greater involved in their children's (especially girls) upbringing than they were before. They also do far more home chores than they did before. Women on the other hand are far more likely to have a job outside the home than they did 100 years ago, and are much more likely to be expected to provide a level of income to the home than they did before.

That said, I don't think anyone truly should expect their partners to be the end all be all as you suggested. Rather, I think people expect their spouses to their 'primary' go to for most things. But that's simply because their lives intersect more now than they did before. People want to do more with their spouses now because they have more common ground. A century ago, my wife wouldn't understand the demands of going to work for 12 hours a day, while I'd have no idea how difficult it is to raise kids. Now, we are both in sync on those demands much more so, and can understand and be a source of support for those demands.

It's not that we expect our partners to do everything, it's that they now have a better grasp of what we are going through, and vice versa; that we naturally can share more with them and they with us, and there is a greater level of mutual understanding through a more common ground of shared life experiences.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Spouses were not always expected to be best friends, confidants, and the main well source for emotional support.


I agree..but I also dont think the expectations for hot wild porn star sex on tap were there either..As well as in general people on average I think had a LOT less free time than they do modern day.To sit around and dwell about if thier spouse like to swallow and have anal on tap or say "f my wet p***Y" or else the husband felt lonely and refected.....OR to dwell on "date nights " and romance" and or other wise emotional needs..I dont think wives were expected t be a size 4 ..wear lingerie to "spice it up" and obsess on trying to figure out how to "please their husbands " sexually..Im sure it wasn't "all missionary" all the time but in general the pressure wasnt on wives to try and "learn how to do anal" and get over "pscholgical blocks" on swallowing semen..and be willing to let him ejaculate on her face..

Both "expectations" have stepped up a LOT..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEMarriage 100 years ago for example was based on a woman staying home, a man going to work,][/QUOTE]

100 years ago many women worked outside the home too.Beign the "SAH" wife was a concept I believe born it the 50's U.S.A for the most part..Women worked on farms and in the fields and as bar maids and sevants for the wealthy..teachers.. nurses ..factories ..."taking in " others laundry ...even the children by a certain age were expected to work..women 100 years ago (not the average) wrent sittign at home with a couple kids cooking and cleaning til the man came home whom she served a coctail and brought him his slippers..

I had the priveldge of actualy meeting BOTH my great grandmother even though they did die when i was young..they were born OVER 100 years ago..Granny owned and operated the local 5 and dime worked until she had a stroke..Gram my other great grandmother owned and managed an "apartment " complex..and they were the "priveldged ones..

Even if a woman stayed home with the 7 or 10 kids..Her work day was LONG..they made thier own clothes..milked the cows fed the chickens ..use scrub boards for the "warshing"..cooked frm scratch including rising at 4 am to start the days bread..they dug in the dirt to plant the the food that they then nutured and harvested..

Women have ALWAYS worked ..hard labor even if they didnt get paid and it was to PROVIDE for the family..Inside and outside the home..


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> You also seem to be implying that spouses _shouldn't_ be content with sex that their partner does "for the sake of the marriage" if their partner isn't into it at that time. Why is that wrong? And to answer your question, yes, some of us are content to either accept sex from our partner, even if they're not into it, or to give sex to our partner even if we're not fully into it.


I probably come across as implying that because the way I feel about it is: thanks but no thanks! If my partner is not interested in having sex with me I'm not interested in sex with her. I don't find the idea of just a 'wet hole' being very appealing.

I was sincerely asking the question though because I was interested in knowing how other people feel.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Well I can't say anything on this thread that does not get interpreted as something extreme. Too much posturing on sides.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Let me clarify ..I did not mean "all" or 100%...But i would say a very important and the #1 "source"..
> 
> Having said that I dont think its a "negative' to have this new modern concept..Just like its not a bad thing that its a relativley new modern concept that a husband can rape his wife...that used to be an oxy-moron..."old ways" werent always "better ways"..


Of course, I wasn't suggesting that new equaled bad, and old equaled good. My post wasn't intended to wax poetic about the "good old days". 

Just noting the differences, and how they have contributed to the survival rate of marriages.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I probably come across as implying that because the way I feel about it is: thanks but no thanks! If my partner is not interested in having sex with me I'm not interested in sex with her. I don't find the idea of just a 'wet hole' being very appealing.
> 
> I was sincerely asking the question though because I was interested in knowing how other people feel.


Well, as the spouse with the lower drive in the relationship(although my drive certainly isn't what I would consider low), I can say that I enjoy obligatory sex. I'm never pressured into it, I'm the one who chooses to do it, and I make it as enjoyable for myself as I can. Usually, my husband is none the wiser. And, usually, it doesn't take long for obligatory sex to become "yup, I'm in the mood now... bone me" sex. 

But that's just me.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> 100 years ago many women worked outside the home too.Beign the "SAH" wife was a concept I believe born it the 50's U.S.A for the most part..Women worked on farms and in the fields and as bar maids and sevants for the wealthy..teachers.. nurses ..factories ..."taking in " others laundry ...even the children by a certain age were expected to work..women 100 years ago (not the average) wrent sittign at home with a couple kids cooking and cleaning til the man came home whom she served a coctail and brought him his slippers..
> 
> I had the priveldge of actualy meeting BOTH my great grandmother even though they did die when i was young..they were born OVER 100 years ago..Granny owned and operated the local 5 and dime worked until she had a stroke..Gram my other great grandmother owned and managed an "apartment " complex..and they were the "priveldged ones..
> 
> ...


Exactly. In fact many of the modern jobs that women work require LESS actual labor, and hours, than the women of old use to work "just being at home".

The modern, American concept of the "SAHM" is absolutely nothing like it was a 100+ years ago.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Dad's for example are far greater involved in their children's (especially girls) upbringing than they were before.


Because they have a LOT more time on their hands and less and less his typical "job" is far less "labor intensive"..

Also women needing to earn more now?(money) YEP ..used to be each home was like a little factory ..homes "produced" ..now we are "consumers" buying "products" produced outside the home.Instead of earnign a few $'ss buy the materails in which the woman "produced" the wardrobe (guess you could call her a "designer and seamtress )...that she labored to make AT HOME..we have to ear the money to go and buy the wardrobe...Instead of puchasign a cow to produce the milk which is "manufactured" on the grounds of the home..which she labored to collect..we have to earn the money to g buy each gallon of milk etc...Instead of spendign a few nicckles to buy flour and salt..in which she LABORED to make bread..she has to go earn the money to buy a loaf ...etc..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Of course, I wasn't suggesting that new equaled bad, and old equaled good. My post wasn't intended to wax poetic about the "good old days".
> 
> Just noting the differences, and how they have contributed to the survival rate of marriages.




I didnt really mean you suggested it sorry for not beign more clear..you just sort of made me think on that train of thought..

I get "carried away " at times in my own direction of thinking based on an "idea" that got sparked by another..(I think like seems like most these days Im ADD)


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Well, as the spouse with the lower drive in the relationship(although my drive certainly isn't what I would consider low), I can say that I enjoy obligatory sex. I'm never pressured into it, I'm the one who chooses to do it, and I make it as enjoyable for myself as I can. Usually, my husband is none the wiser. And, usually, it doesn't take long for obligatory sex to become "yup, I'm in the mood now... bone me" sex.
> 
> But that's just me.


I'm a man and I participate in "obligatory sex". If my wife wants it, but I'm not necessarily in the mood, I will not always reject her just because I might not be feeling it in that moment. Sometimes it's a "no", but sometimes I get my ass up and go into the bedroom (or wherever) because she wants it, and I want her to get what she wants.

Do I feel "violated"? Hell no. She's not raping me, or robbing me of choice. And guess what? Once I get into it, I NEVER regret it, regardless of if she was in the mood first or not. Who cares? Why would anybody be keeping score?

If you spend your life waiting around for your libidos to be revved up at the exact same time, chances are you will be missing out on a TON of sex.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> I didnt really mean you suggested it sorry for not beign more clear..you just sort of made me think on that train of thought..
> 
> I get "carried away " at times in my own direction of thinking based on an "idea" that got sparked by another..(I think like seems like most these days Im ADD)


Me too.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Well I can't say anything on this thread that does not get interpreted as something extreme. Too much posturing on sides.


You can say it..but what you SAID IS an extreme...Im sorry saying that you can get yoru "emotional needs met by a friend" is a EXTREME in the context of a marriage where emotional needs arent beign met..then sayign but sex should still be present between those two because its unfaithful to get THAT anywhere else..Your suggestion of it was an extreme..I just laid it out how it would look in reality..

The very idea of that is an extreme..If it was actually realized as the dynamic..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thats one thing I've learned...If you arent ADD in 2012..you are and extreme exception ..::scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I'm a man and I participate in "obligatory sex". If my wife wants it, but I'm not necessarily in the mood,


thats the thing with my husband if hes nt in the mood that second that changes so for us its not apples for appples if he has sex when he starts otu "nto in the mood"..With me?I can be not in the mood and do it anyway ..and I NEVER from start to finish got "in the mood" just aint happening..

But hes the type that says "wake me up if you get in the mood..I woudl rather have sex than sleep" ..

IOW hes never really NOT in the mood ..or the mood to get in the mood..

Thats it hes in the MOOD to get in the mood(enternally 24/7)..But hes "trigger happy"...so thats not a fair comparison..Hes one of those that can be tired and have a million things on his mind and if I say "I have on a g-string made out of pearls under these shorts" the rest of the world EVAPORATES like instanlty ..I mean "tunnell vision "..its that easy for him..

And Im sorry he is not that way becasue he is "more loving " or "less selfish" than me..that is JUST the way he is..IOW hes not a "better person" because he can be turned on with a WORD or a look..and I cant..I WISH I was that way BECAUSE Im married to a person like that..so I wouldnt be such a "failure in his eyes..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> You can say it..but what you SAID IS an extreme...Im sorry saying that you can get yoru "emotional needs met by a friend" is a EXTREME in the context of a marriage where emotional needs arent beign met..then sayign but sex should still be present between those two because its unfaithful to get THAT anywhere else..Your suggestion of it was an extreme..I just laid it out how it would look in reality..
> 
> The very idea of that is an extreme..If it was actually realized as the dynamic..


Sorry that you are putting my thoughts together with some other thoughts in this thread and assuming they are all mine. There's a huge incorrect assumption in that statement. Got to go so I'll let you find it if you care to.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I'm a man and I participate in "obligatory sex". If my wife wants it, but I'm not necessarily in the mood, I will not always reject her just because I might not be feeling it in that moment. Sometimes it's a "no", but sometimes I get my ass up and go into the bedroom (or wherever) because she wants it, and I want her to get what she wants.
> 
> Do I feel "violated"? Hell no. She's not raping me, or robbing me of choice. And guess what? Once I get into it, I NEVER regret it, regardless of if she was in the mood first or not. Who cares? Why would anybody be keeping score?
> 
> If you spend your life waiting around for your libidos to be revved up at the exact same time, chances are you will be missing out on a TON of sex.


Yup, pretty much how I feel too.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Sorry that you are putting my thoughts together with some other thoughts in this thread and assuming they are all mine. There's a huge incorrect assumption in that statement. Got to go so I'll let you find it if you care to.


Nah....


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Here is the deal too..the HIGH drive (as its called I call it obsessed for SOME (not all) needs to "accept" its not going to be all that "thrilling" for the one "not in the mood" but thats "willing" ..Ya know that its more about "thats O.K with me (not even hurry up)just it isnt goign to be about (for me ) this HOT steamy out of my mind sex more of about equivelant to a back rub.."comforting" ..So comfortign about equivelant to a foot massage or even just a "blanket" on a cold night is the height of the thrill isnt "good enough for the one "wanting " well then **** THEM!...SORRY Im nto goignot have a WILD out of my mind screaming orgasm even if Im "willing " (and content) to have sex when Im NOT IN THE MOOOD!

BLAH!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> 100 years ago many women worked outside the home too.Beign the "SAH" wife was a concept I believe born it the 50's U.S.A for the most part..Women worked on farms and in the fields and as bar maids and sevants for the wealthy..teachers.. nurses ..factories ..."taking in " others laundry ...even the children by a certain age were expected to work..women 100 years ago (not the average) wrent sittign at home with a couple kids cooking and cleaning til the man came home whom she served a coctail and brought him his slippers..
> 
> I had the priveldge of actualy meeting BOTH my great grandmother even though they did die when i was young..they were born OVER 100 years ago..Granny owned and operated the local 5 and dime worked until she had a stroke..Gram my other great grandmother owned and managed an "apartment " complex..and they were the "priveldged ones..
> 
> ...


I never once said that women didn't work, or that being a SAHM wasn't work either. Yes they had long days. I said that there was more defined roles without significant overlap. 

100 years ago, many women did work outside the home as well. Once again, that is not at all what I said.

I said women, *inside a marriage*, were *typically *SAHM's.

That is legit. What your grandparents did, that's their individual examples and not neccessarily true for all women. Both of my grandmothers were stay at home mom's, does that mean all women were stay at home mom's? No. But that's not what i said either.

According to this study, in 1900, 6% of married women worked outside the home. The First Measured Century: Book: Section 2.8

94% didn't. That to me would show the 'typical' married women in 1900 didn't work outside the home, as I stated.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Well I can't say anything on this thread that does not get interpreted as something extreme. Too much posturing on sides.


I agree. I make a stement about how married women were traditionally stay at home mothers 100 year ago, and I get told that apparently I didn't know women back then worked hard and insome cases harder than the men, which has really nothing to do with what I said.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dallas,
This point is so very true. And creating tension/conflict and/or forcing dishonesty because you NEED your partner to feel more turned on than they do - is toxic for them. 




dallasapple said:


> Here is the deal too..the HIGH drive (as its called I call it obsessed for SOME (not all) needs to "accept" its not going to be all that "thrilling" for the one "not in the mood" but thats "willing" ..Ya know that its more about "thats O.K with me (not even hurry up)just it isnt goign to be about (for me ) this HOT steamy out of my mind sex more of about equivelant to a back rub.."comforting" ..So comfortign about equivelant to a foot massage or even just a "blanket" on a cold night is the height of the thrill isnt "good enough for the one "wanting " well then **** THEM!...SORRY Im nto goignot have a WILD out of my mind screaming orgasm even if Im "willing " (and content) to have sex when Im NOT IN THE MOOOD!
> 
> BLAH!


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Here is the deal too..the HIGH drive (as its called I call it obsessed for SOME (not all) needs to "accept" its not going to be all that "thrilling" for the one "not in the mood" but thats "willing" ..Ya know that its more about "thats O.K with me (not even hurry up)just it isnt goign to be about (for me ) this HOT steamy out of my mind sex more of about equivelant to a back rub.."comforting" ..So comfortign about equivelant to a foot massage or even just a "blanket" on a cold night is the height of the thrill isnt "good enough for the one "wanting " well then **** THEM!...SORRY Im nto goignot have a WILD out of my mind screaming orgasm even if Im "willing " (and content) to have sex when Im NOT IN THE MOOOD!
> 
> BLAH!


Maybe this is true in your case, but there are some who _do_ make obligatory sex thrilling for their partner. Me being one of those. And I usually do still orgasm. 

Whether obligatory sex is thrilling or not is a _choice_, in my opinion. I could choose to be comforting for my husband, or I could choose to be thrilling, even if I'm not in the mood. Usually, choosing to be thrilling helps to put me in the mood. Mood, afterall, is not an inevitable state of being. It can be influenced and controlled if we want it to be.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Me being one of those. And I usually do still orgasm.


Then its thriling for you too..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Dallas,
> This point is so very true. And creating tension/conflict and/or forcing dishonesty because you NEED your partner to feel more turned on than they do - is toxic for them.


It does create "guilt" and a feelign of "failure" litterally because even though you have a healthy libido..You failed them..there is "soemthing wrong with you "..

Its VERY hard to deal with..Beign so sub par..and accordign to "high drive" ABNORMAL..Something is WRONG with you ..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Maybe this is true in your case, but there are some who do make obligatory sex thrilling for their partner. Me being one of those. And I usually do still orgasm.


and alos C2W I have watched you lecture from practically yoru honey moon bed and for three years..you have goen ON and ON about how much you love sex and what a top priority it is for you ..its SURPRISING after all the "VIOLENT LUST ' and hot sex you and Jason have to hear you even COMMENT on a subject liek this..

YOu say TWO separate things at once..

YOu have ZERO credibility in my eyes unless at some point you have LIED..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Sory Created to "wrrite" you need to pay attention to what you WRITE..

YOu are the only person I met that was the perfect wife that had perfect sexual relations with her husband (for the first two years)..that on year 3 could write abotu the sexual dysfunction you experienced on year 1 and 2..

Quite frankly I dont take you seriously..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> and alos C2W I have watched you lecture from practically yoru honey moon bed and for three years..you have goen ON and ON about how much you love sex and what a top priority it is for you ..its SURPRISING after all the "VIOLENT LUST ' and hot sex you and Jason have to hear you even COMMENT on a subject liek this..
> 
> YOu say TWO separate things at once..
> 
> ...



Better get the whole thing otherwise it'll get misquoted.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Well this thread just dropped to a new low.


Yeah it does when a 24 year old that lives with her parents is givign sexual advice for 25 year old mariages..its drops pretty low..the indescrencies pile up..

Not because of me Im consitstant..just like my marriage is..


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I think your husband is very lucky CreatedToWrite. I hate to see you or anyone else get attacked like this. It's very childish.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Yeah it does when a 24 year old that lives with her parents is givign sexual advice for 25 year old mariages..its drops pretty low..the indescrencies pile up..
> 
> Not because of me Im consitstant..just like my marriage is..


I tried so hard to remove that post so it would not get misquoted. I was too late. I was talking about the new low because of personal attacks on this thread.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Hey...My 16 year old SON has ADVICE on love..How to love a woman DESPITE her inabilities to love" ..We could ALL learn something from him..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

sounds like I have sex with my husband f 24 years MORE often than C2W does..I dtn get why Im the bad guy?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I think your husband is very lucky CreatedToWrite. I hate to see you or anyone else get attacked like this. It's very childish.


Thank you. And it is childish, considering I said nothing to attack anyone and yet I'm attacked for being young and liking sex...Guess it goes to show you can't please everyone.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Honestly, if my opinions upset people, why not just ignore what I write?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Yeah it does when a 24 year old that lives with her parents is givign sexual advice for 25 year old mariages..its drops pretty low..the indescrencies pile up..
> 
> Not because of me Im consitstant..just like my marriage is..


Just for clarification here...we lived with my parents because my husband couldn't find full time work, and nor could I. But we still paid rent with his unemployment and pitched in on groceries, like they asked when we moved in. 

And I never gave you marital advice. I only, ever, gave my own opinions on general marital issues that were discussed. 

Anyway, I'm going to follow my own advice and ignore from now on.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Was Dallasapple hacked? Is somebody else posting under her screen name? Something seems really odd about these out the blue personal attacks against CreatedtoWrite, and even the poor grammatical quality in the posts seems off.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Was Dallasapple hacked? Is somebody else posting under her screen name?


I doubt it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Was Dallasapple hacked? Is somebody else posting under her screen name? Something seems really odd about these out the blue personal attacks against CreatedtoWrite, and even the poor grammatical quality in the posts seems off.


Seemed like it started a few pages ago and then just ramped up. Weird.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Seemed like it started a few pages ago and then just ramped up. Weird.


Yeah, it just seemed to ramp up out of nowhere.

Like a Tourette's moment or something.

Maybe some posts were deleted and I missed the lead up?

:scratchhead:


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Yeah, it just seemed to ramp up out of nowhere.
> 
> Like a Tourette's moment or something.
> 
> ...


I was seeing posts as they occurred most of the day. Created didn't even post until the last little bit.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

And Kingsfan was banned?? What happened?!


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## patrat777 (Aug 24, 2012)

Hello all, I new to this so here goes. I've been married for 4 1/2 years.I have a step son who's 19 and lazy as the day is long. When we got married our sex life was o.k. at first maybe 2 times a week. It's gone from that to once every 3 to 4 months. This is the same woman to whom I dated and we had fun in bed "oral, anal,whatever". Now 4 1/2 years later its the same routine 4 to5 times a year, absolutely boring sex. It really didn't help when she told me she'd had over 50 partners a few months ago. I think I married a retired ****. She's in her late 40's and I'm in my late 30's.I'm the only one that works,her and the lazy son hold the couch down all day everyday. I'm really thinking divorce right now. I just hate to start over.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

patrat777 said:


> Hello all, I new to this so here goes. I've been married for 4 1/2 years.I have a step son who's 19 and lazy as the day is long. When we got married our sex life was o.k. at first maybe 2 times a week. It's gone from that to once every 3 to 4 months. This is the same woman to whom I dated and we had fun in bed "oral, anal,whatever". Now 4 1/2 years later its the same routine 4 to5 times a year, absolutely boring sex. It really didn't help when she told me she'd had over 50 partners a few months ago. I think I married a retired ****. She's in her late 40's and I'm in my late 30's.I'm the only one that works,her and the lazy son hold the couch down all day everyday. I'm really thinking divorce right now. I just hate to start over.


Ouch. That sounds more than a little off. Can you get her to go to marriage counselling with you? I would be worried about why it's so infrequent. Many of the complaints on this post are about number of times per month is not enough or is too much. You can actually count the number on one hand for the entire year.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Patrat777, do you have any suspicions? I mean do you think she's still sexual but going elsewhere or do you think she's just shut down that department?

And the 19 year old. That's another topic but I know what your going through on that. Growing up is pretty scary for some teenagers but it's not doing him any good for sure if he's not moving in some good direction. I speculate that he has no job and has a hard time getting one. Ask your wife to look at some of James Lehman's material. She ultimately will have to decide what she thinks is best for him. Maybe she thinks living at home with mom indefinitely is good for him. I hope not for your sake.


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## patrat777 (Aug 24, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Ouch. That sounds more than a little off. Can you get her to go to marriage counselling with you? I would be worried about why it's so infrequent. Many of the complaints on this post are about number of times per month is not enough or is too much. You can actually count the number on one hand for the entire year.


Its a sad situation to be in.She has a masters degree and won't work. I dropped out of high school in the 9th grade . I've been very blessed though,I've been self employed for about 16 years. I work from 12 to 20 hours a day.She constantly *****es about me working.My work day also includes maintaining the yard , home, my equipment and my business. I can't get her boy to do a damn thing. She defends him for being lazy.I'm really getting weirded out with their relationship. I had to travel out of town one day and returned home the next day,HE SLEPT IN MY BED with his "mommy". Remember he's 19 years old.There's so much more to the story ,it would knock your socks off. Thanks for listening.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

patrat777 said:


> Its a sad situation to be in.She has a masters degree and won't work. I dropped out of high school in the 9th grade . I've been very blessed though,I've been self employed for about 16 years. I work from 12 to 20 hours a day.She constantly *****es about me working.My work day also includes maintaining the yard , home, my equipment and my business. I can't get her boy to do a damn thing. She defends him for being lazy.I'm really getting weirded out with their relationship. I had to travel out of town one day and returned home the next day,HE SLEPT IN MY BED with his "mommy". Remember he's 19 years old.There's so much more to the story ,it would knock your socks off. Thanks for listening.


Yea their are quite a few dynamics going on there. I do think counceling would be good for you guys. A good counselor would see the following and have input

- Your wife is very educated and capable but is not working. She may be depressed. 
- You work so many hours and while you think that should make things better, she may feel like you're married to your job and not her.
- She may have some empty nest feelings going on and she's clinging a little bit and also maintaining her role as his protector. These are very bad for her son. She may not see past "protecting him from you" enough to realize when you are right.
- I have no idea about him sleeping the same bed? That is strange. Maybe if she's not connected emotionally with you then he has become her surrogate partner (just emotionally of course). Usually when that happens, it's a single mother and first son where they inadvertently treat their son more like a partner even at very young ages. It's terrible for the kid. (sleeping in the same bed though at 19? )
- And then you have to realize their is a possibility that she have a lover.


It's very important to get a councelor who can point all of this out to her and to you because you play your part in the dynamic as well. You both have to want it to work and spend more time together. And the longer little Johnny with mom doing nothing, the less of a chance in life he has. It will eventually come down to whether she is able to do what's right with him because you will not last in that environment. Kids have a way of getting more disrespectful and entitled over time and it will come to a head between you and him eventually.

Read The Love Bank if you have time. It's only 30-40 pages or so.

Back to the topic of this thread though. You having sex only once every 3-4 months is a symptom of these other issues I think. It will not get better until they do.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Because I'm a nice guy?  Since I'm not leaving (kids), I've decided to carry on normally. Can't deal with upset people, distressed kids and non stop drama when I'm really busy with work. But the truth is that I'm not really in love with her anymore, so it doesn't matter to me. Being nice to her is easier.


Those are poor reasons. She does not have to do for you, but then you do not have to do for her - that is her attitude if, as you imply, she gets upset if the balance of effort does not favor her.

Hold back. If she complains, simply tell her you are adjusting to the relationship equilibrium she has set. Trust me, she will get the point. If she threatens divorce, remind her that you will get (at least) 50% custody and that she will not be entitled to the current marital lifestyle.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Here is the deal too..the HIGH drive (as its called I call it obsessed for SOME (not all) needs to "accept" its not going to be all that "thrilling" for the one "not in the mood" but thats "willing" ..Ya know that its more about "thats O.K with me (not even hurry up)just it isnt goign to be about (for me ) this HOT steamy out of my mind sex more of about equivelant to a back rub.."comforting" ..So comfortign about equivelant to a foot massage or even just a "blanket" on a cold night is the height of the thrill isnt "good enough for the one "wanting " well then **** THEM!...SORRY Im nto goignot have a WILD out of my mind screaming orgasm even if Im "willing " (and content) to have sex when Im NOT IN THE MOOOD!
> 
> BLAH!


Hi Dallas,

I frequently disagree with you but here I think you are pretty much spot on. I feel accepting (HD spouse) and providing (LD spouse) - *cheerfully and lovingly* - "accomodation" sex is necessary with significantly different drives. I would have been *thrilled* if my ex had consistently provided good sex twice a week, rather than setting her innate drive and style preference as the default.

For clarity, I object when an LD spouse (typically the woman) will rarely (if ever) provide accomodation sex or only does so while making it clear (through words and/or body language) they would rather be anywhere else. I also object when an HD spouse (typically the guy) complains about a poor sex life / a spouse's poor sex drive (distinct from the sex they are willing to cheerfully provide, having an attitude of "if she's not horny beforehand I don't want it" and not realizing that attitude is causing the lack of sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Having said that I dont think its a "negative' to have this new modern concept


Agree. The problem is not with the concept, but when the application of the concept becomes unbalanced with one spouse wanting that complete gratification before reciprocating the effort (if reciprocation takes place at all).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> I agree..but I also dont think the expectations for hot wild porn star sex on tap were there either..As well as in general people on average I think had a LOT less free time than they do modern day.To sit around and dwell about if thier spouse like to swallow and have anal on tap or say "f my wet p***Y" or else the husband felt lonely and refected.....OR to dwell on "date nights " and romance" and or other wise emotional needs..I dont think wives were expected t be a size 4 ..wear lingerie to "spice it up" and obsess on trying to figure out how to "please their husbands " sexually..Im sure it wasn't "all missionary" all the time but in general the pressure wasnt on wives to try and "learn how to do anal" and get over "pscholgical blocks" on swallowing semen..and be willing to let him ejaculate on her face..
> 
> Both "expectations" have stepped up a LOT..


You're way off base here Dallas,

Most men today don't want porn star sex from their wives. They simply want a decent sex life - regular intercourse in a few different positions and non-intercourse (OS) activity, with maybe occassional sexy outfits, toys, or roleplaying sessions. That is not "pornstar sex".

Are there guys who absolutely insist on anal, swallowing, cumming on their wives faces, or otherwise insist their wives worship c0ck at a moment's notice? I'm sure there are, but if the posts on TAM are any indication they are a small minority. OTOH, wives who persistently refuse to expand their horizons in any manner beyond intercourse do drive resentment through their stubbornness - and that is arguably well-deserved.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> Are some of you suggesting you would be content with sex with a partner who is not really into it at that point in time but is doing is as a "spousal duty" for the sake of the marriage?


I would not be content with "duty sex" as commonly defined. I would be very content with a spouse who recognizes the need and says "I am not horny, but I am going to 'wow' you because we love each other, you work hard to meet my needs, and you deserve it".

The attitude with which the sex is provided makes all the difference and is far from a semantics issue. It is not just black and white, "you are either horny or the sex is crap".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Jane_Doe said:


> But I don't like when unhappy husbands in other marriages think that we should all have obligatory sex whether we like it or not because they're sure that would please our own husband. That's where my stuff about 'bodily integrity' comes into play. At the end of the day, no one can tell me/coax me to put something in my body if I don't want it there. At best it's disrespectful and at worst it's... well let's not go there actually.


I think this is oversimplying the issue significantly.

I believe the underlying issue often is not (or not exclusively) sex _per se_. It is instead a prevailing sentiment that the man has to be the solid rock provider while the woman does not have to reciprocate. In your situation, you do have the right to refuse all you want, so long as you recognize that you are simultaneously giving up the right to expect your husband to put gas in your car, pay your bills, meet your emotional needs, or whatever floats your boat. He (like most guys) will continue to provide in the absence of a meaningful sex life (at least for a period of time) but it is then a gift, not earned or deserved.

I have been on sites besides TAM. There are many woman who DO feel they are entitled to have diligent, attentive husbands whether or not there is sex. I have rarely seen a woman suggest being less demanding as a legitimate offset to not providing sex. More commonly, a woman will be offended at a suggestion that she accept less if she wants to give less.

The truth for many if not most men is eventually we have to know we will get back most of what we give to our spouses. We will tolerate imbalance due to our natural inclination to provide, but there are limits. A woman must decide to be a wife full time and take the perceived bad (i.e. the need for sex) with the good. Women cannot invoke "wife" standing selectively or treat a man as a menu of characteristics to be chosen from _ala carte_.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

DTO, you have hit most of my beliefs spot on when it comes to this subject. I agree and I think your comments are full of wisdom.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Not everyone is in the mood all of the time. I know there are times I am in the mood and want to have sex and the wife does not. Then there are times that she wants sex and I am in the mood. Luckily it does happen on occasion we are both willing to have sex. If I had to do it every time she wanted to, I would be really pissed off.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Not everyone is in the mood all of the time. I know there are times I am in the mood and want to have sex and the wife does not. Then there are times that she wants sex and I am in the mood. Luckily it does happen on occasion we are both willing to have sex. If I had to do it every time she wanted to, I would be really pissed off.


And if she could only do it when you were in the mood, she would be pissed off too.  Not trying to pick on you, btw. Just pointing out the other side of the coin.

That's why sex should be mutual, imo. Neither spouse should have complete say in when sex happens. Which is why, imo, "obligatory sex" should be a good thing once in a while. The HD spouse gets to feel fulfilled, and the LD spouse isn't forced or coerced or guilt tripped into having sex.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I have a relatively high sex drive. But if, at any given moment, my husband were to ask me, "You in the mood for sex?" I would almost always answer "No". My husband, however, could be in the mood at any time, in almost any place. I need the seduction, the kissing, the caressing, the whispers, the teasing, the foreplay. THEN I can be in the mood almost at any time. "Mood" can be adjusted easily, and shouldn't always be the guiding light for when we have sex, imo. Otherwise, there would be a lot less sex going on for a lot of couples.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Then its thriling for you too..


Totally didn't see this the first time. 

Yeah, I guess it would be thrilling for me too. But it does still take work to get there. Sex for me often takes concentration and mental and physical work to be thrilling, even when I am in the mood for it. It's certainly not like in the movies where the right switches are turned on and the lady is insatiable. At least, not usually. 

In regards to the obligatory side(and I'm just speaking from my own experience, and am not trying to put my experience onto any one else), if it takes work for me to stay focused even when I am in the mood, then it shouldn't be a surprise that it would take work to stay focused when I'm not. And, of course, my husband helps to keep me in the mood with his winning ways. To sum up my point, obligatory sex(while certainly not comparable to sex when I am horny) _can_ be thrilling if both partners are willing to work at making it so. If the HD partner is only concerned about him or her self, then the LD partner isn't going to feel connected or desirable. If the LD partner just lays there like a sack of potatoes while the HD partner gets off, of course they're not going to enjoy it much. When both work together to please the other person, magic can happen. But again, this has only been my experience and could mean nothing in reality.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> and alos C2W I have watched you lecture from practically yoru honey moon bed and for three years..you have goen ON and ON about how much you love sex and what a top priority it is for you ..its SURPRISING after all the "VIOLENT LUST ' and hot sex you and Jason have to hear you even COMMENT on a subject liek this..
> 
> YOu say TWO separate things at once..
> 
> YOu have ZERO credibility in my eyes unless at some point you have LIED..


I do love sex. I love it a lot. But that doesn't mean I want it every second of every day. That also doesn't mean that my husband and I don't still have issues. And just because I love sex and I love my husband, doesn't mean that I'm always in the mood when he is. As shocking as it may sound, it is possible to love sex a hell of a lot and get to a day when you just don't want to do it. 

Being on the pill has decreased my sex drive some. I've also had some reoccurring urinary health issues that have interfered with our sex life and my drive. But I still try and meet my husbands needs as often as possible, so yes, I know what obligatory sex is, and no, I've not lied about anything. The first year we were married we were like rabbits...at least once a day for almost a full year...maybe even year and a half. We could get into a huge fight and scream at each other, and still make love that night. The second year it decreased. I started school full time, he started work full time, we were more tired and had less time on our hands to work with. 

Now he works overtime nearly every day, wakes up before the sun does, I'm going to two schools at once, and we're moving into a new apartment. Life happens. Sex frequency has needed to be shifted to what we both can handle. Doesn't mean I love sex any less. It just means we've had to work around our schedule...Not sure why that's such a big deal.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Sory Created to "wrrite" you need to pay attention to what you WRITE..
> 
> YOu are the only person I met that was the perfect wife that had perfect sexual relations with her husband (for the first two years)..that on year 3 could write abotu the sexual dysfunction you experienced on year 1 and 2..
> 
> Quite frankly I dont take you seriously..


I'm not sure who told you I was perfect, but I can guarantee that I'm not. Far, far from it. Neither is my husband perfect. Recently we've had some emotional issues to sort through. But together we have made, and I hope will continue to make, a decent couple. 

I've also never claimed to have perfect sexual relations with my husband. Frequent? Yeah, we had frequent sex. And no, I've never been pressured, forced, or guilt tripped into having sex. Nor have I been made to have more than I wanted. But that's probably because our drives mostly match. But we have had our issues. Every couple does, and I've never pretended otherwise. There have been times when we've had some semi-serious issues, and our sex life suffered a little. But "dysfunction"...Not sure where you got that. I wouldn't say there's been any sexual dysfunction in our sex life. 

But yeah, we've had some issues and I talk about them. So? It is possible to have some issues, and still have a great sex life. But I never claimed perfection in anything, nor do I claim perfection now.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> And if she could only do it when you were in the mood, she would be pissed off too.  Not trying to pick on you, btw. Just pointing out the other side of the coin.
> 
> That's why sex should be mutual, imo. Neither spouse should have complete say in when sex happens. Which is why, imo, "obligatory sex" should be a good thing once in a while. The HD spouse gets to feel fulfilled, and the LD spouse isn't forced or coerced or guilt tripped into having sex.


Your are right she would. There just needs to be some mutual agreement upon it. I had told my wife at one point that I didn't want to have sex at night past a certain time. She said okay, and yet will continue to try and get sex later at night than that and then be disappointed when I don't want to. Sex gives me energy (she knows that) and I don't need that late at night when trying to fall asleep.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Hey...My 16 year old SON has ADVICE on love..How to love a woman DESPITE her inabilities to love" ..We could ALL learn something from him..


Yup. I think we could learn something from him. Good or bad, I think we can all learn things from everyone if we give them the chance.  I've learned things from you, dallas. Even though I don't know you and don't often agree with your opinions, I've still learned things from you.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Do you only go to work when you "feel" like it?

Clean your house only when you're really excited to get it done?

Do you treat your kids, friends, family, and co-works kindly only when you're "in the mood"?

Everyday life is filled with obligatory actions from top to bottom. You do what is necessary for the greater good, your feelings be damned.

Why is it that sexual satisfaction and well being of a spouse often ends up being the singular place where the obligatory suddenly becomes the profane?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Do you only go to work when you "feel" like it?
> 
> Clean your house only when you're really excited to get it done?
> 
> ...


Going to work happens 5 times a week and has a regular schedule. It is also necessary to pay the bills. Cleaning the house, well, that can be put off at times, or one person in the marriage can avoid it while the other does it all. Being kind to friends, family, and coworkers- yah that is pretty much a when your in the mood for it. 
Sex does not have to happen all of the time. There are many opportunities for it. Both people need to be considerate of when the other does and does not want it. My wife does not want to have sex anywhere that would be outside of a houses (hotel counts as well) walls and I want to. But she doesn't so it doesn't happen. I don't like having sex late at night when ready to go to sleep. Just because she wants it then doesn't mean I should have to stay awake longer and get less sleep. She could have just as easily asked for it an hour or 2 earlier.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

gbrad said:


> It is also necessary to pay the bills.


And that's the difference between say my marriage, and some of the ones I've encountered in real life and here on TAM.

For us regular, satisfying sex is necessary.

The rest of your post doesn't really have anything to do with my point, as I said nothing about needing to address your spouse's sexual needs every single time they came knocking, or throwing consideration out the window. 

And seriously, you're only kind to people when you're "in the mood"?


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

jaquen said:


> And that's the difference between say my marriage, and some of the ones I've encountered in real life and here on TAM.
> 
> For us regular, satisfying sex is necessary.
> 
> ...


Yes, satisfying sex is necessary, I get that. I would like to have that as well.
You did say "do what is necessary for the greater good, your feelings be damned". If you didn't mean throw consideration out the window and address the spouses needs every time, then what do you mean by that. 
When I am in a bad mood, I don't go out of my way to put on a face and be nice. If I'm happy I act it, if I'm not, I don't act it. (most of the time that is) There are times when I try to fake happiness.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

gbrad said:


> You did say "do what is necessary for the greater good, your feelings be damned". If you didn't mean throw consideration out the window and address the spouses needs every time, then what do you mean by that.


My statement wasn't made in a vacuum. I have quite a few previous comments in this thread that add context to my POV.



gbrad said:


> When I am in a bad mood, I don't go out of my way to put on a face and be nice. If I'm happy I act it, if I'm not, I don't act it. (most of the time that is) There are times when I try to fake happiness.


I'm confused by what personal happiness in any given moment has to do with being kind to others. I believe there is a way to be true to your state, even in unhappiness, and still be kind to others without needing to wait for the "mood" to strike you.

Or maybe that's just me.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

gbrad said:


> Your are right she would. There just needs to be some mutual agreement upon it. I had told my wife at one point that I didn't want to have sex at night past a certain time. She said okay, and yet will continue to try and get sex later at night than that and then be disappointed when I don't want to. Sex gives me energy (she knows that) and I don't need that late at night when trying to fall asleep.


Interesting. I have the opposite problem. Sex first think in the morning and then I'm too lazy to do anything for a bit.


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## Biscuits (Aug 2, 2012)

Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse?

This thread was started to ask the question, is it ok for wives to tell their husbands no?

Let me ask you this.

Would it be ok for a husband to not give his wife money, a car, a home, the clothes she wants, time away from him with her friends?

Ok, ladies, I know you are going to attack me for this. But, women EXPECT certain things from a man, and a penis isnt one of them. 

Men expect certain things from a woman, and it most likely involves a penis. I give, you give.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Would it be ok for a husband to not give his wife money, a car, a home, the clothes she wants, time away from him with her friends?


What about the many women that have their own money..can buy there own clothes contribute at least equally(or even MORE) to the home they both share and cars etc..and excuse me?My husband deosnt give me "time"..time just is and if I choose to use some to be with my friends he isnt "giving me time" anymore than I give him time" to do anything..

Having said that "if" a woman (or a man for that matter) is placing standards on thier spouse for "money" or cars or clothes that go beyond their means then YES it is O.K to say I dont have anymore to give you than I am giving you arleady..and it would be wrong to badger or retaliate because they SPENT everything they had already and say I want more..Knowign they are weary and putting constant pressure on them never acting appreciative of what they generously offer based on what they HAVE to give..Its beyond inconsiderate and unloving to place demands on a spouse who is doing their best already...and guilting them when they cant come up with more..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

gbrad said:


> Your are right she would. There just needs to be some mutual agreement upon it.


I totally agree. 



gbrad said:


> I had told my wife at one point that I didn't want to have sex at night past a certain time. She said okay, and yet will continue to try and get sex later at night than that and then be disappointed when I don't want to. Sex gives me energy (she knows that) and I don't need that late at night when trying to fall asleep.


She should be respectful of this request. It's only common courtesy, and it is highly unfair of her to set you up in a position where you can't win no matter what happens. Either you have sex with her, and then can't fall asleep when it's already late at night, or you don't and then upset your wife. Not good choices either way. 

Maybe you could have sex with her late on Friday and Saturday nights, so that she gets her desire quenched at a time when you won't have to worry as much about the late hour?


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Biscuits said:


> Do spouses have the right to reject their spouse?
> 
> This thread was started to ask the question, is it ok for wives to tell their husbands no?
> 
> ...


Well, some of us do expect our husbands to use their penises...  And some of us even like it. But I get your point.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Created2Write said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We have tried to set aside certain times that were designated for sex to make sure it happens, but that has never worked out either. She keeps herself so busy with work that any type of schedule or routine I try to get us on for anything does not stick.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

gbrad said:


> We have tried to set aside certain times that were designated for sex to make sure it happens, but that has never worked out either. She keeps herself so busy with work that any type of schedule or routine I try to get us on for anything does not stick.


Well, I'm sorry to hear that she won't work with you. A lot of people seem to think that sex is something that just naturally happens when everything else in a relationship is running smoothly. Reality, however, is that sex does take work, communication and compromise.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Well, as the spouse with the lower drive in the relationship(although my drive certainly isn't what I would consider low), I can say that I enjoy obligatory sex. I'm never pressured into it, I'm the one who chooses to do it, and I make it as enjoyable for myself as I can. Usually, my husband is none the wiser. And, usually, it doesn't take long for obligatory sex to become "yup, I'm in the mood now... bone me" sex.
> 
> But that's just me.


I think I can relate is some sense to what you're saying. I do triathlon. It involves training a minimum of 6 times per week (2 workouts in each of the 3 sports). Some days I get home from work and the last thing I feel like doing is jumping on my bike and going for a training ride. More often than not though once I drag myself out, part way through, I start to enjoy the ride. 

I take it you're suggesting something similar when it comes to having sex even though initially you're not in the mood?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I take it for granted that my wife does not shut me down in the bedroom but I don't give her the impression that's all I want either.

We went out to eat with a group of about 20 for a birthday Saturday night. During the meal I reached across the table and held her hand for a few seconds. It was nothing much but it seemed to make her happy. This morning I sent a text message hoping her day is going well. I think little things is why she doesn't think all I want is sex. I want it more often than she does but I don't ask every time I want it and she almost never says no way.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

I haven't read all of the replies, but IMO, I'm not saying its right or wrong, BUT, you never really know why someone does what they do. I'm a firm believer people don't just shut down or not have sex without there being some kind of real reason behind it. Now whether that person can be or will be honest with their spouse about why they wont, thats another thing.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

CallaLily said:


> I haven't read all of the replies, but IMO, I'm not saying its right or wrong, BUT, you never really know why someone does what they do. I'm a firm believer people don't just shut down or not have sex without there being some kind of real reason behind it. Now whether that person can be or will be honest with their spouse about why they wont, thats another thing.


That's exactly what makes this thread so polarizing. We all take our personal baggage and interpret each comment with out glasses on. I know my intentions have been misread and I suppose I misread others intentions (or at least the scenario they have in their head).


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> I agree with you on this Dallas. Your view on this subject seems very personal because you've had to deal with this or are dealing with it. It makes sense to me that some of us who have not had this issue are a little naive to your position and some who are on the other side of the issue just don't understand it. The scenarios in my head when making comments are not so inconsiderate and indifferent as appear to you. Of course I can't speak for others.
> 
> I think it's on your husband to be there for you in whatever ways you need him to be like "his time" if he expects you to be there for him.


The thing is for me the comparison is not only degrading and insulting is sexist..the assumption is the man provides her with "money" (thats the man role)so therefore she should provide him with sex (thats the woman role)...why are we comparing material need to sex needs and defining that with gender spcifically?..Why not keep it apples to apples does the man have the rigt to reject SEX or the woman reject sex..Also if you go with this swap suggested (man provides money thererefore wife provides sex) that leaves a LOT of men out ..because more and more men are SAHD while the wife is either the sole provider(of income) or the main breadwinner..that would also I suppose mean she can refuse to EVER have sex since he doesnt "give her money" or "buy her the clothes she wants"..Or how about income level?should a man or a woman that makes an extremely high icome and can buy fancier clothes and cars be then entitled to MORE sex and spicier sex than an average income earner or should a couple that struggles in poverty if only one is earnign income should they be denied sex ?

Comparign the "witholdign of income or material items" to withholdig sex like I said is not only degradign that "formula" cant even be applied to all couples in the first place IF you are talking about "man earns" ...

Also my "passion" LOL>>in some of my comments isnt always just only about exactly my personal experience or "my life' I have a LOT of friends that are married that I have gotten to know intimatley as to details of marriage dynamics as well as i have sepnt 1,000's of hours reading real couples delimas...Adn I have heard this comparison used before (should man withold "money and gifts" if wife is allowed to withold "sex" and Im sorry its point blank ignorant..

Including many women today are the ONLY or main income providers and some of THEM are ones that want more sex and get rejected...

+ I was just answering the question does the SPOUSE who provides have the right to reject (give money cars clothes) to their SPOUSE and I say YES if the spouse demanding a material item knows it will put the other one under undo stress or in a position to go int debt of course they do..Its too "cookie cutter" you have to look at the speific circumstances and if one is beign unreasonable not considering the other then its completley within the "right' to say no to spending money or NO to a material itiem that is beyond thier means...


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> The thing is for me the comparison is not only degrading and insulting is sexist..the assumption is the man provides her with "money" (thats the man role)so therefore she should provide him with sex (thats the woman role)...why are we comparing material need to sex needs and defining that with gender spcifically?..Why not keep it apples to apples does the man have the rigt to reject SEX or the woman reject sex..Also if you go with this swap suggested (man provides money thererefore wife provides sex) that leaves a LOT of men out ..because more and more men are SAHD while the wife is either the sole provider(of income) or the main breadwinner..that would also I suppose mean she can refuse to EVER have sex since he doesnt "give her money" or "buy her the clothes she wants"..Or how about income level?should a man or a woman that makes an extremely high icome and can buy fancier clothes and cars be then entitled to MORE sex and spicier sex than an average income earner or should a couple that struggles in poverty if only one is earnign income should they be denied sex ?
> 
> Comparign the "witholdign of income or material items" to withholdig sex like I said is not only degradign that "formula" cant even be applied to all couples in the first place IF you are talking about "man earns" ...
> 
> ...


I understood what your comments were in reference to and I agree completely. I personally think the argument comparing "things" to "feelings and intimacy" is off base. It's important to feel like you are cared for as a person and not a sex toy. Making a bunch of money then expecting sex in return sends the wrong message. 

His Needs / Her Needs points this out so clearly. I personally think it's great material.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

There was a couple one time and his attitude just absolutley made me cringe..Of course they had problems and he was very unhappy(but so was she and had been for a long time)..they had grown distant (first according to her) then the sex dwindled to nothing..they had been marreid a long time like 17 years and he had no complaints about the sex life up until he started posting and it had been like a month at that point and she was struglling (not with LD) but wether she even loved him anymore or not..his focus STAYED on the lack of sex..Apparrently she had been complaining over the years she wanted more time (quality time) and he didnt listen ....and even though they continued to have regular sex she sort of had a separate life going ..In fact getting her other emotinal needs met through friends and socializing mostly without him..

Well I was horrified when I saw his "plan" to try and "get her " to see what it would be like for her since she wasnt goign to be a "real wife" ...She worked I think part time thier kids were older like 12 and 15...He "figured out " she made JUST enough money to pay her "share' of mortgaage and utilities and to buy her own food.He divided it out in 4 parts and said he was generously willing to not make her pay 1/2 of the kids support..He of course made a lot more money ..he said after he paid his and the kids share he had plenty left over for luxuries ...she would be broke..and that he woudl take his expendable income and take the kids out to eat ..on trips ..and by things for himself and she could just get used to eating beans and rice and never even havign enough money to get hair cut or go to a movie...IOW he was goign to make her pay rent like a tennant since she wouldnt have sex and was contemplating if she even wanted to be married anymore or not..so he was going to "show her" how good she had it and what a great and wonderful husband he really was...what she would be "losing"..

Needles to say she ended up divorcing him ...She first got a better paying full time job ..then he was served papers and he acted shocked..(Oh and his ultimate plan anyway was 6 months of this "rent " paying dynamic and he claimed that if by then she wasnt putting out he was divorcing her)...But when SHE filed on him he fell apart and was acting like his life was being destroyed..

I WARNED him do NOT treat her like that dude..She may be done anyway...but if their is an inkling of hope you treating her bascially liek she is a prostitue IMHO..this woman that is the mother of yoru children that has been with you for all her youth its going to nail the nails in the coffin...

Another thing he did to try and "convince her' was pride her with lists and romantic poems about what a wonderful HUSBAND he was..Im liek DUDE you need to be telling HER why you love and adore her her ..NOT why she SHOULD love and adore you ..

It really made sense to me WHY she had fallen "out of love" with him and went cold in the first place...


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I think I can relate is some sense to what you're saying. I do triathlon. It involves training a minimum of 6 times per week (2 workouts in each of the 3 sports). Some days I get home from work and the last thing I feel like doing is jumping on my bike and going for a training ride. More often than not though once I drag myself out, part way through, I start to enjoy the ride.
> 
> I take it you're suggesting something similar when it comes to having sex even though initially you're not in the mood?


Yes.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I understood what your comments were in reference to and I agree completely. I personally think the argument comparing "things" to "feelings and intimacy" is off base. It's important to feel like you are cared for as a person and not a sex toy. Making a bunch of money then expecting sex in return sends the wrong message.
> 
> His Needs / Her Needs points this out so clearly. I personally think it's great material.


I think the poster who originally commented on the money aspect was merely trying to make a finer point. Obviously his post doesn't apply to everyone, and he used some very general stereotypes. When my husband was unemployed and couldn't find work and we could hardly pay our car insurance, let alone our rent, it didn't effect how much we had sex. 

The point was that it's easy for women to "expect" things from their husband, whether it's money to provide the opportunity for them to be a SAHM, or specific things to meet their emotional needs, it's natural for wives to expect things from their husband, and each women is going to expect different things. And when it comes to withholding those things, it's seen as a big no-no. However, when it comes to the husbands expectations(sex), it's seen as degrading and selfish, and the woman can withhold it if her needs aren't being met. 

At least, that's what I took him to mean. I could be way off.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I'm probably going to get hammered for this, but here it goes: there is nothing wrong with a man desiring sex with his wife. I know a lot of women have difficulties with this, but the important part here isn't the word "sex", it's "with his wife" that matters. If a man just wanted sex he could go find it any number of places, and any man with any intelligence, could be good at hiding. These husbands want sex with the woman they love and adore. And sex is, for a lot of men and women, one of the primary ways they feel loved by their spouse. 

Let's say that I told my husband, "You know what shows me you love me more than anything else you say or do? When you climb into bed for the night and give me a quick shoulder massage and then wrap your arms around me and hold me tight. Nothing tells me you love me like that does." And he does this every night, or close to it, for years. Then, all of a sudden, it dwindles. Then it stops altogether, and no matter how much I tell him that I need this from him, it doesn't change. He assures me that he does still love me, but he just can't keep doing that one thing. 

I would be devastated. That's basically saying, "Yeah, I know this means a lot to you, and I know that nothing else shows you how much I love you like this does, but tough. You're going to have to get over it, cause your needs really aren't that important to me." And yes, that is what's being said when a spouse rejects their spouses emotional needs. 

So, when it comes to a man wanting sex from his wife, I see nothing wrong with him being open and honest about such a thing. No, being a jerk about it isn't going to help, but the wanting of sex isn't the issue...it's how the man is going about it. Wanting sex is a natural thing, and wanting sex with your wife is _good_. I think a lot of people assume that sex is just about jacking off, when it's so much deeper. We put so much emphasis on emotional needs being more important, but we(society) forget that sex _is_ an emotional need for a man, as well as physical.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I think the poster who originally commented on the money aspect was merely trying to make a finer point. Obviously his post doesn't apply to everyone, and he used some very general stereotypes. When my husband was unemployed and couldn't find work and we could hardly pay our car insurance, let alone our rent, it didn't effect how much we had sex.
> 
> The point was that it's easy for women to "expect" things from their husband, whether it's money to provide the opportunity for them to be a SAHM, or specific things to meet their emotional needs, it's natural for wives to expect things from their husband, and each women is going to expect different things. And when it comes to withholding those things, it's seen as a big no-no. However, when it comes to the husbands expectations(sex), it's seen as degrading and selfish, and the woman can withhold it if her needs aren't being met.
> 
> At least, that's what I took him to mean. I could be way off.


Probably correct in your assessment. A big problem is we decide what our spouse needs like financial security or compliments and then we put all of our eggs in those baskets and get really offended jaded when those things are not appreciated enough. On the other side, the spouse has different priorities and asks for things that seems unimportant to us but is immensely to them. So when we don't do those things the spouse is offended and jaded as well and neither one sees the other point of view.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> I think the poster who originally commented on the money aspect was merely trying to make a finer point. Obviously his post doesn't apply to everyone, and he used some very general stereotypes. When my husband was unemployed and couldn't find work and we could hardly pay our car insurance, let alone our rent, it didn't effect how much we had sex.
> 
> The point was that it's easy for women to "expect" things from their husband, whether it's money to provide the opportunity for them to be a SAHM, or specific things to meet their emotional needs, it's natural for wives to expect things from their husband, and each women is going to expect different things. And when it comes to withholding those things, it's seen as a big no-no. However, when it comes to the husbands expectations(sex), it's seen as degrading and selfish, and the woman can withhold it if her needs aren't being met.
> 
> At least, that's what I took him to mean. I could be way off.


But what Im saying is its apples to apples..its also easy for a woman to expect sex from her husband..and MEN as well also have other expectations out of a wife as well..that its "easy " for them to expect..even though I don't necessarrily agree expectations are all "easily assumed" ..depending..Some men "expect" that their wife is going to work and help pay the bills ...some men "expect" that the wife is going to quit working when kids come along and stay home...and have the dinner ready when he walks through the door..some men easily expect she will be doing the bulk of the domestic ...as well as both may be "easily" expecting the same things like having children..

women are not the only ones that have expectations and assumptions of how their husbands will provide for them including sex... men arent the only ones that have exepcatations of sex is the main point...as well as they expect other things as well...

I also completley disagree that its TYPICAL that a man expceting sex from his wife is automatically viewed "degrading and selfish" ..thats ludicrous to make such a blanket statement like that..It can be degrading and selfish if he happens to have a degrading and selfish attitutde about it..but that goes both ways...including that its compared to him paying the bills..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Let me put it this way LOL>>>When I got married?I fully and "easily" expected that my husband would "provide" me sex..and sexually fulfill me to the best of HIS ability..and that we would on some regular basis be having sex for the rest of our lives until we couldnt or we died..I never felt degraded or that he was "selfish" that he expected that too.....I also fully "expected" both of us had the "right" to reject depending on the circumstances but thats different than saying its a complete 100% rejection of any and all sexually activity..If my husband said after we are married I dont "exect you " to have ANY expectations for sex with me or for me to ever sexaully satisfy you ever I would have said Um....hold the horses we need to talk ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Oh and as far as this "assumption" that "women" consider men selfish adn that they are degrading her by merely expecting "some " sex? I have never assumed that in my case my husband NOW admits he WAS selfish and his words "greedy and immature and that he was "overzealous" and treated me wrong over wanting more more more than was in my level of comfort adn evne for my OWN ability to enjoy sex...(some men AND women) are inconsiderate adn one tracked minded..Even though he wasnt a complete ass hole outside of bed meaning he did try and do sweet things ...His FOR ME overwheling need for sex and TOUCH (constant touching outiside of bed) adn my pleas for him to PLEASE tone it down a notch went ignored and I began to feel like just a sex object for him to grope at his leasure and to make constant sexual suggestions too..

For me what complcated matters even worse was he never said anyting "nice" about me or complimented ANYTHING else about me BUT sexual didnt help..like my ENTIRE value to him was LIMITED to my sexuality and his "entitlement" to my body..To ADD to that LOL>>>..he has a habit of "critisizing" or trying to "fix or improve" on the tasks I performed and even my personality..

Example if I was helping a freind in dire need and I was worried about them ...He wouldnt say "you are an awesome frind (or good freind) I admire how givign you are and kind..He would say "you just let people use you and take advanatage of you ..they are selfish and dont really care about you ...you shouldnt let people like that "ruin yoru day"..(one example was my freind who was suddenly widowed at a farily young age and was left with no one to help her but me )...

If he had any idea how ****ty that made me feel..When he could had lifted me up and just supported me emotionally he deflated me and seemed only concererned how it affect HIM..

I probably have about 1,000 examples of these "subltel" but deep critisisms of me that cut deep over the years..MAINLY too becasue its not in his "nature" to give compliments to people even basic **** like 'thats a good idea" ...Hes also the type that first immediately "rejects" or debates" anythign you say ..I said one morning "gosh it sure is dark in here THIS morning"(same time of day I normally get up ) he said "well thats because its early its like that at this hour" I sadi no I NO what tiem it is LOL>>its the same time just unusually dark ..he said no I dont think so...well lo and behold I went outside and it was completely overcast (storm clouds covering ) and it was sprinkling..I said see thats what it is its unusually cloudy ..DARK clouds..he didnt say "your right ..I guess I didnt notice that " he simply said "well it wasnt like that an hour ago"..

Its like an argument just makign an observation ANY other person most likey woudl AGREE LOL!!!and say "your right it is really dark in here " ...(its not in his "make up" to say that thouhg "your right" )

Anyway for me iits not a simple matter of wanting sex=selfishness or beign degraded..LONG LONG history...

Dallas


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Oh and as far as this "assumption" that "women" consider men selfish adn that they are degrading her by merely expecting "some " sex? I have never assumed that in my case my husband NOW admits he WAS selfish and his words "greedy and immature and that he was "overzealous" and treated me wrong over wanting more more more than was in my level of comfort adn evne for my OWN ability to enjoy sex...(some men AND women) are inconsiderate adn one tracked minded..Even though he wasnt a complete ass hole outside of bed meaning he did try and do sweet things ...His FOR ME overwheling need for sex and TOUCH (constant touching outiside of bed) adn my pleas for him to PLEASE tone it down a notch went ignored and I began to feel like just a sex object for him to grope at his leasure and to make constant sexual suggestions too..
> 
> For me what complcated matters even worse was he never said anyting "nice" about me or complimented ANYTHING else about me BUT sexual didnt help..like my ENTIRE value to him was LIMITED to my sexuality and his "entitlement" to my body..To ADD to that LOL>>>..he has a habit of "critisizing" or trying to "fix or improve" on the tasks I performed and even my personality..
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing some of your history Dallas.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Thank you for sharing some of your history Dallas.


Thank you for listening..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> But what Im saying is its apples to apples..its also easy for a woman to expect sex from her husband..and MEN as well also have other expectations out of a wife as well..that its "easy " for them to expect..even though I don't necessarrily agree expectations are all "easily assumed" ..depending..Some men "expect" that their wife is going to work and help pay the bills ...some men "expect" that the wife is going to quit working when kids come along and stay home...and have the dinner ready when he walks through the door..some men easily expect she will be doing the bulk of the domestic ...as well as both may be "easily" expecting the same things like having children..


Yeah, men have expectations too. I was responding to the comparison of money and sex, and explaining my own personal interpretation of it.



dallasapple said:


> women are not the only ones that have expectations and assumptions of how their husbands will provide for them including sex... men arent the only ones that have exepcatations of sex is the main point...as well as they expect other things as well...


I never said that women don't expect sex. Of course women also expect sex. I know I do. And women aren't the only ones who refuse their spouse. Some men are LD, some women are HD. I think we all recognize that. IMO, I think if we were to take a general look at heterosexual relationships, more often than not, sex is going to be the #1 emotional need of men more than the #1 emotional need of women. Sex is fantastic and I get an emotional connection with my husband that can't be compared to anything else...but it isn't my #1 emotional need. It is, however, my husbands #1 emotional need.



dallasapple said:


> I also completley disagree that its TYPICAL that a man expceting sex from his wife is automatically viewed "degrading and selfish" ..thats ludicrous to make such a blanket statement like that..It can be degrading and selfish if he happens to have a degrading and selfish attitutde about it..but that goes both ways...including that its compared to him paying the bills..


I don't think it's ludicrous at all. From what I have seen on many different forums, when a man is in a marriage where he is being denied a sexual relationship with his wife, and he comes to a forum to vent or ask for help, he often gets ridiculed "for just wanting sex". He should just focus on meeting his wife's needs, and let her respond in her own good time.(Which I disagree with...but I digress) My only point is that it's not all about the physical...A man desiring his wife and being disappointed about rejection is not a bad thing. How he responds to the disappointment can be very negative, but the desires themselves are good and healthy. 

I am happy that I haven't seen much negativity towards sex on this forum at all. The men and women here that I've encountered have very healthy outlooks, which is why I came back here. It's very liberating and positive here, and I love that. Not all the man-bashing I've seen in other places.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Thundarr said:


> I really like your analogy CTW.
> 
> I think you can replace sex from a man's point of view with it. Also you could replace conversation, hand holding, hugs, or whatever is very important to someone else and have the same dynamic.
> 
> Both cases leave someone feeling unappreciated.


Precisely. And either spouse could be in either position. Point being, sex is just as much about the emotional connection as going on a date. Either spouse wanting sex and being disappointed when it's denied them isn't about jacking off, and seeing it that way really is a disgrace to beauty of the sexual relationship imo.


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## KJ5000 (May 29, 2011)

This is my BOOMSTICK! said:


> Interesting topic.
> 
> I think i get what the OP was stating. I'm of the opinion of both camps; yes it is ok to reject sex at times. We are all our own person and as such should have final dominion over our own bodies. Additionally, I know I don't like it if my partner says 'yes' when she'd rather not. That's pity sex (or chore sex or duty sex, whatever term you want to use), and it's not at all fulfilling. I'd rather get a no then get that.
> 
> ...


Well said, couldn't agree more!:smthumbup:


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## CaptVere (Aug 27, 2012)

Of course anybody has the right to say no to intimacy. They have the right to say no to anything they please. Their partner has the right to leave as well if this becomes a matter of neglect, which it so often does.

I am only in my mid 30s and my wife doesn't want to touch me or be touched by me anymore since the birth of our last child 1.5 years ago. Does she have a right to decide to deny me for this long? Yes. Do I want duty sex from her? No, not at all. Like others have mentioned, most people don't want their partner to have sex with them out of duty anyway. I tried that. I tried talking to her about it and it got me a little bit more sex, but it wasn't good sex. She either starfished or complained until I gave up. I don't want that sex so I've stopped initiating.

So ya, in any one instance someone can reject you or just say they aren't in the mood. I think everybody understands that. But, if it's a matter of lost attraction then that's no longer a marriage. Losing one's attraction and libido really has nothing to do with 'rights'. Sometimes it's just the way it is and it won't change. They won't change either. I'm going on a tangent here, but that's because I don't think the question is phrased correctly and doesn't address the real problem it is implying. Sometimes your partner just loses their attraction for you. When that happens you have very few options in my experience. I've tried MMSL and every other technique to regain her interest, but nothing works. She says she's 'broken', whatever that means. She has no impetus to change. If you weren't attracted to someone, how hard would you work to try and be? That's the problem.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> I haven't read all of the replies, but IMO, I'm not saying its right or wrong, BUT, you never really know why someone does what they do. I'm a firm believer people don't just shut down or not have sex without there being some kind of real reason behind it. Now whether that person can be or will be honest with their spouse about why they wont, thats another thing.


Agreed. But, I feel that, a good portion of the time, the reasons that the LD spouse cite for regularly refusing having nothing to do with the HD spouse. Often, the drop in sex is due to poor self image, emotional issues, trauma from abuse, a feeling that sex is dirty, improperly getting emotional needs met from or vicariously living through one's children, and on and on.

IMO, we at TAM generally agree that both partners must work hard at resolving relationship issues to maximize many aspects of the relationship, including the sex life. It seems that perhaps a better question is "what should the sexual arrangement be when the LD refuses to address personal issues inhibiting the sex life" and "what happens when the LD simply does not equate sex with a successful marriage".


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Number of reasons why someone might reject their spouse. My guess one reason is anger and resentment. Its a marriage/sex killer and hard to overcome, but can be done if people really want to save the marriage. I think sometimes too, the anger and resentment has set in so deep, sometimes the spouse just doesn't care that much about putting any effort into saving it or trying. Let alone having sex. Thats the last thing on their mind.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Jamison said:


> Number of reasons why someone might reject their spouse. My guess one reason is anger and resentment. Its a marriage/sex killer and hard to overcome, but can be done if people really want to save the marriage. I think sometimes too, the anger and resentment has set in so deep, sometimes the spouse just doesn't care that much about putting any effort into saving it or trying. Let alone having sex. Thats the last thing on their mind.


I would go one step further and say anger and resentment are symptoms of lack of understanding. Trying hard and not being appreciated sucks. A little effort goes a long way if it's what the spouse values. A lot of effort does not gain so much if it's lower in there priorities of needs.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

I like the last couple posts. I think they hit on some good points. It seems its not the disparity in drive that is the issue so much as it's when one or both sides refuse to work together on coming to a reasonable compromise. 

I get the impression a significant disparity in drive is more often than not a symptom of what is going on in the relationship rather that one person truly having a high drive and the other have next to none. I think pretty much all of us have a high drive given the right circumstances.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

The confusion for me on this topic is from one minute to the next someone calling "rejection" can mean wantign sex everyday and only getting it 2 or 3 times a week..Or someone calling rejection their spouse is not willing to swallow or fill in the "sex act"..all the way to someone living in a completley sexless marriage for over a year which is indeed at that point celibacy..

Then you get into the reasons..Reasons can be from all the way to that person is completley healthy and normal sexually just has a "fill up" level of 2 or 3 times a week ...Or for long term refusal it indeed can be some sort of relationship issue(or issues) outside of bed all the way to a completely separate problem the person has physically or emotionally/mentally ....or simply as one poster mentions the attraction for various reasons is lost..where the person has a normal healthy libido and desire but is turned off by their partner..

Then you get into on the occasions where the one wanting less..or not at all is "willing" to participate for the other one then the rejection is but I want them to want me..The ones that arent so willing or say "Im going my best already" are then slefish for not even trying...

Oh then you get the ones that feel frequency AND quality are all good ..but hey feel rejected because there partner never or rarely initiates..

Its like head spinning to me..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

D,
I think the most interesting thing on this thread - has been the theme of the HD partner rejecting the LD partners sexuality. This comes in a variety of packages:
Base: I need you to initiate 
Extended: I need you to get aroused as quickly as I do
Deluxe: I need you to have an O every time we connect 

The rejection is often wrapped inside a series of seemingly innocuous questions. But the underlying themes are: 
- Why aren't you just like me and 
- I am healthy, do you understand that the more you differ from me, the more obvious it is that something is "wrong" with you
- What do we need to do to FIX you
- I like groping you, you used to like it, besides I like it, so I am going to keep doing it
- I also like sexualized jokes/banter and staring at you

The underlying themes from the LD spouse are:
- I am not responsible for how miserable you feel when I frequently reject you
- I don't want to discuss this, it makes ME anxious
- Why are you makng such a big deal about sex
- It is better for both of us for me to use excuses and misdirection, then for us to have a brutally honest conversation about my list of turn offs (excuse: I don't want to hurt your feelings) and turn ons (now these can be down right scary)




dallasapple said:


> Oh and as far as this "assumption" that "women" consider men selfish adn that they are degrading her by merely expecting "some " sex? I have never assumed that in my case my husband NOW admits he WAS selfish and his words "greedy and immature and that he was "overzealous" and treated me wrong over wanting more more more than was in my level of comfort adn evne for my OWN ability to enjoy sex...(some men AND women) are inconsiderate adn one tracked minded..Even though he wasnt a complete ass hole outside of bed meaning he did try and do sweet things ...His FOR ME overwheling need for sex and TOUCH (constant touching outiside of bed) adn my pleas for him to PLEASE tone it down a notch went ignored and I began to feel like just a sex object for him to grope at his leasure and to make constant sexual suggestions too..
> 
> For me what complcated matters even worse was he never said anyting "nice" about me or complimented ANYTHING else about me BUT sexual didnt help..like my ENTIRE value to him was LIMITED to my sexuality and his "entitlement" to my body..To ADD to that LOL>>>..he has a habit of "critisizing" or trying to "fix or improve" on the tasks I performed and even my personality..
> 
> ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I think the most interesting thing on this thread - has been the theme of the HD partner rejecting the LD partners sexuality. This comes in a variety of packages:
> Base: I need you to initiate
> Extended: I need you to get aroused as quickly as I do
> Deluxe: I need you to have an O every time we connect


Exaclty except for its not LD spouse its LOWER drive spouse and indeed a HD(nto higher turly high drive then the NORMAL or average) drive spouse would APEAR to them as asexual LOL)Is ironically with their comparisons to themselves as the normal one..the more lovign one and caring and givign one (simply because they have an insatiable appetite) is rejecting the lower drive..

Adn your are CORRECT the underlying theme reason for that is i FEEL this way about you ...so YOU SHOULD feel that way too..IM ALWAYS(litterally) in the mood for you thats the way NORMAL people who love each other should feel...You should be GRATEFUL Im so attractied to you and want you that bad..(the reverse of the lower dirve telling the higher drive they should be grateful they get teh sex they get) a lower drive spouse is apparently "ungrateful" ironically that thier spouse wants them MORE than they desire sex ..

Final conclusion ..there is somethign WRONG with your becasue you are not a carbon copy of ME in the opposite gendered body.And you need to be fixed...You should need at the exact frequency ..you shoudl ENJOY with the same intensity every time...and you should be thinking about having sex with me basically every time you see me and if Im not here that thought shold pop in your mind about every 10 mintues ..Oh and you should "miss me" after a separation of about an hour ...and verbalize all of that ..including sex jokes and groping my crotch ..licking your lips and pinching my nipples..


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

Agreed, rejection means different things to different people.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

dallasapple said:


> Example if I was helping a freind in dire need and I was worried about them ...He wouldnt say "you are an awesome frind (or good freind) I admire how givign you are and kind..He would say "you just let people use you and take advanatage of you ..they are selfish and dont really care about you ...you shouldnt let people like that "ruin yoru day"..(one example was my freind who was suddenly widowed at a farily young age and was left with no one to help her but me )...
> 
> If he had any idea how ****ty that made me feel..When he could had lifted me up and just supported me emotionally he deflated me and seemed only concererned how it affect HIM..


I nearly vomited a little over that because it hits so close to home to what my wife would say. In my case, I didn’t say those things, she merely projected what she believed I felt about her and in her head, put those words in my mouth. That is how she believed I thought BECAUSE I would initiate sex with her as she was dealing with one trauma or another.... So, the idea that I’d ‘pressure for sex’ while she was emotionally devastated and trying to “use her like that” made me this heartless nasty person who is only thinking of himself. She would be so angry and spiteful. She’d see me as the most selfish person ever. I never told her ‘nice’ things.... 

Here is what is screwed up.

Sex is how I express love, respect and admiration. That is how I tell her all those nice things about her I love oh so much. I wouldn’t have sex if I didn’t feel that way. So as she’s dealing with a trauma, my heart goes out to her. Because of that, I try to show her love. I did it through sex..... And was punished for it; Not only through rejection, but also in how she perceived ‘who I am’.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Racer said:


> I nearly vomited a little over that because it hits so close to home to what my wife would say. In my case, I didn’t say those things, she merely projected what she believed I felt about her and in her head, put those words in my mouth. That is how she believed I thought BECAUSE I would initiate sex with her as she was dealing with one trauma or another.... So, the idea that I’d ‘pressure for sex’ while she was emotionally devastated and trying to “use her like that” made me this heartless nasty person who is only thinking of himself. She would be so angry and spiteful. She’d see me as the most selfish person ever. I never told her ‘nice’ things....
> 
> Here is what is screwed up.
> 
> Sex is how I express love, respect and admiration. That is how I tell her all those nice things about her I love oh so much. I wouldn’t have sex if I didn’t feel that way. So as she’s dealing with a trauma, my heart goes out to her. Because of that, I try to show her love. I did it through sex..... And was punished for it; Not only through rejection, but also in how she perceived ‘who I am’.


Same position here... very spooky! Only that my wife would give me the silent treatment. Having said that - although I understand what you mean - people react to trauma in different ways, and we should respect that. I wouldn't expect my wife to have sex with me if she suffered some kind of trauma, even if that was my way of expressing my love to her.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

In Absentia said:


> Same position here... very spooky! Only that my wife would give me the silent treatment. Having said that - although I understand what you mean - people react to trauma in different ways, and we should respect that. I wouldn't expect my wife to have sex with me if she suffered some kind of trauma, even if that was my way of expressing my love to her.


Don't I know it... I know way too much about it now. Back then though, there's this overwhelming urge to comfort her, hold her, and tell her how much I love her. That was done with slow passionate love making. It never really occurred to me that 'making love' isn't interpreted the same way by her as it is me. 

It is ironic though... She refuses to 'have sex' or '[email protected]#'. She insist on 'making love'. See how I might get 'confused' between her words and actions? She is the one who doesn't relate that physical action of sex with love.... I am. She has sex. I make love (or used to.... consequences for her suck)


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Racer said:


> I nearly vomited a little over that because it hits so close to home to what my wife would say. In my case, I didn’t say those things, she merely projected what she believed I felt about her and in her head, put those words in my mouth. That is how she believed I thought BECAUSE I would initiate sex with her as she was dealing with one trauma or another.... So, the idea that I’d ‘pressure for sex’ while she was emotionally devastated and trying to “use her like that” made me this heartless nasty person who is only thinking of himself. She would be so angry and spiteful. She’d see me as the most selfish person ever. I never told her ‘nice’ things....
> 
> Here is what is screwed up.
> 
> Sex is how I express love, respect and admiration. That is how I tell her all those nice things about her I love oh so much. I wouldn’t have sex if I didn’t feel that way. So as she’s dealing with a trauma, my heart goes out to her. Because of that, I try to show her love. I did it through sex..... And was punished for it; Not only through rejection, but also in how she perceived ‘who I am’.


My problem isnt that he woudl try adn initiate sex at those times(that was a constant anyway)..just his overall regular comments to me about me as a person ..Not that he was trying to comfort me with sex..his WORDS I did not imagine and I have 1,000's of examples basicaly "subtle' but constant jabs at how wrong I was for not being like him or not reacting to things the way "he would" ..telling me I was wrong for feeling my own feelings the ole 'you shouldnt feel that way" .."I wouldnt"..

If he insulted me (MY feeling insulted) was wrong instead he would say "you cant take a joke' ..Oddly bascially every other person I have ever gotten to know has told me I have an excellent sense of humor including I can make people laugh..but to him ..sense I didnt for example find joking about me beign a prosittute..or a joke about child molesting "funny" then I was defective..I had no sense of humor..and I was "too sensitive"..

What Im talking about my POINT is ...his "review" of me non sexual and outside of bed..my cooking skills..my mothering skills..my level of sensitvity my ENTIRE perosnality was 'wrong" and made me wonder but for wanting to SCREW me and finding me "hot' what the hell did he even like about me ?As a person .. felt unloved and devalued overall..which did not strike "desire in me" to be with him sexually..

With my friend in need?What he did was in affect make it sound like Im a fool "letting my friend taek advanatage of me" ..it had nothign to do with him trying to 'comfort me with sex" ..it was how he DISCOURAGED me in every other aspect of my life and being...


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Racer said:


> Don't I know it... I know way too much about it now. Back then though, there's this overwhelming urge to comfort her, hold her, and tell her how much I love her. That was done with slow passionate love making. It never really occurred to me that 'making love' isn't interpreted the same way by her as it is me.
> 
> It is ironic though... She refuses to 'have sex' or '[email protected]#'. She insist on 'making love'. See how I might get 'confused' between her words and actions? She is the one who doesn't relate that physical action of sex with love.... I am. She has sex. I make love (or used to.... consequences for her suck)


Didn't know either... she has massive communication problems... well, she is better now, but not that much. I've been trying to read her mind all my life and I mostly failed... :scratchhead:


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Racer said:


> I nearly vomited a little over that because it hits so close to home to what my wife would say. In my case, I didn’t say those things, she merely projected what she believed I felt about her and in her head, put those words in my mouth. That is how she believed I thought BECAUSE I would initiate sex with her as she was dealing with one trauma or another.... So, the idea that I’d ‘pressure for sex’ while she was emotionally devastated and trying to “use her like that” made me this heartless nasty person who is only thinking of himself. She would be so angry and spiteful. She’d see me as the most selfish person ever. I never told her ‘nice’ things....
> 
> Here is what is screwed up.
> 
> Sex is how I express love, respect and admiration. That is how I tell her all those nice things about her I love oh so much. I wouldn’t have sex if I didn’t feel that way. So as she’s dealing with a trauma, my heart goes out to her. Because of that, I try to show her love. I did it through sex..... And was punished for it; Not only through rejection, but also in how she perceived ‘who I am’.


This is precisely why I asked the question in the first place. Marriage is about _both_ spouses together, and "rights" refer to the individual. I guess it could be said his wife has the right and freedom to come to any conclusion she wishes to about her husband, but at what cost? At what point do the marriage vows trump our rights and individuals? 

Racer, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. This may sound like an absurd, ridiculous question, and you've probably answered a million times before, but I'm curious; did you try comforting her in non-sexual ways as well?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Sex is how I express love, respect and admiration.


But if that is not how she "feels loved respected and admired" then you can express your feeling in that manner til your blue in the face and even if she "logically knows" thats what you say you are trying to convey to her its not going to make her FEEL that love respect and admiration ..At least not in the extremely signifcant way you intend it...

If I said "home cooked meals is how I express my love respect and admiration to my husband '..that doesnt mean when I make those meals he feels significantly let alone overwhelmingly love respected and admired regarldess if he knows thats what I WANT him to feel out of it..At least not with the impact Im trying to relate to him.

Im not saying its not important for us to LEARN what each other is doing with us or for us that is their real (adn t them in the most significant way)attempt /expressing love to us...and acknowledge and appreciate their natural expressions but it still doesnt mean as DEEPLY as you feel you are giving love its actualy "felt" that deeply..

I think it hurts just as bad for what YOU consider giving love to be rejected when you give it as "not love to them" as it hurts for the person to KNOW what makes YOU FEEL loved and not make an effort to give that even if they dont get the same feelings out of it...

The home cooked meal I mentioned made with love..If I made that meal and told my husband this is how (or lets say one significant way TO ME ) I show how much I love you respect you and admire you and he said well dont bother then to me thats nothing but food I refuse to appreciate it because I dont feel loved by it just make me a frozen dinner its all the same to me ???REJECTION of my love expressed...(thats actually a true story 

Having said that you have to be realistic..I still cant "expect him " to FEEL completely respected loved and admired by the meal at least not to the same degree I was hoping he would or that I felt preparing it for him ..I guess its being told its "nothing" though is the most hurtful part and just completely defeats the purpose..

I also think (IMHO) with sex in general their can be an imbalance..if pretty much NOTHING the other person says or does relays you love/admire /respect THEM in affect thats how they end up assuming the other must feel and how they treat you ..then that makes for a pretty dreary out of bed life in which you are basically doing "chores' until you can have sex again.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Dallas:

That sounds like a very tough situation, and definitely not a sexual turn on. Anyone being criticized and harped on verbally, without any positive affirmation, is going to emotionally tune out of the relationship sometime. That could mean no longer desiring sex or no longer meeting the other person's emotional needs, whatever they may be. Positive affirmation is important in marriage, whether it's our spouse's love language or not.

I was in a similar position early on in our marriage, but I was the one criticizing my husband. I finally realized that I was trying to change who he was. Sure, he had little things he did that irked me, but I should have been asking him to do them less often...not taking everything that irritated me at the time and attempting to change him. So I stopped. I try to say at least one nice thing about him each day, especially if there's something big he's done that was difficult or unpleasant for him. 

I hope that your husband has seen his faults and changed.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

When it comes to how we each feel and express love, this is my take:

I am a writer. Although I'm definitely not a fabulous writer, it's something I practice and enjoy. I love to write and to receive love letters. I used to write my husband love letters all the time, and he enjoyed getting them, but his reactions were far less enthused than I particularly expected. I spent hours on this letter; sometimes they included poems, he could show some enthusiasm, I thought. He had to explain to me, "This is how _you_ would like to be treated. And while I definitely love the letters, it doesn't speak to me like it speaks to you. Massages speak to me. I know it's difficult for your small hands, but for whatever reason, I feel loved when you give me a massage. You making my lunches speaks to me, as none of the other men at work get their lunch made for them. They all know you make my lunch, and it makes me feel proud to be married to you."

I had to learn that how I express love may not speak to him. How loving would it be for me to say, "This is how I express love. Get used to it. I won't give you massages or make your lunch. I'm just going to write you a lot of poems and love letters, and that will have to do." Not very loving. I had to learn what speaks to him, likewise, he had to do the same for me. 

Now, I still write him letters and poems. That doesn't mean the way I express love has to be on the shelf, never to be used. But I also give him massages and make his lunch. And ya know? He has told me that the letters he receives every now and them means even more than they did before since I also speak his language. Likewise, he still shows me he loves me through sex, and through cuddling and romantic gestures. And the sex means even more now than it did when we didn't know how to express our love in the ways we each would really feel it.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Positive affirmation is important in marriage, whether it's our spouse's love language or not.


OMG we agree LOL>>>But I will add to..positive affirmation is for most important in LIFE..most of us "crave" to be affirmed as children (approved of) as a friend.. as an employee..as a student.. as a parent ...as a spouse (a husband/ wife ) and as a lover..VERBALLY..

And Im not talking about constant gushing (thats another thing even expressing to my husband my NEED for something SOME "atta girl" or "your a good person" was CRITISIZED and mocked)..Or LYING like sayign what someone wants to hear even though you dont believe its even true to "kiss up"..

Im talking about a "sprinkle" here a "sprinkle there " and reserving critisisms for important issues or to honestly try and be helpful..IF the person NEEDS help..

For me beleive it or not that comes naturally..especially if someone is already feeling down on themselves ..its called UPLIFTING ...if you went to work everyday and did your best..I think everyone woudl agree having the "boss" refusing to acknwoledge your hard work (#1) then on top of that finding any way to point out could be done better..After a while you just really dont try so hard anymore ..and even start looking for antoher job..


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Wasn't taking away from you Dallas... Just triggered my situation... Saying 'not so nice' things and finding faults isn't exactly going to be on anyone's 'makes me hot' list. 



Created2Write said:


> Racer, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. This may sound like an absurd, ridiculous question, and you've probably answered a million times before, but I'm curious; did you try comforting her in non-sexual ways as well?


Actually, I’ve never been asked that question... Yes, no, all of the above... 

If you subscribe to the ‘love languages’, my wife is that acts of service type. So the “yes” part is I was saying the words of comfort as well. It just wasn’t interpreted by her as really meaning it; It’s just words and listening to her. So, the “no” part is stronger... I wasn’t doing something like: “You need a drink, lets go out and have fun to get your mind in a better place.” That’s my sin I’ve had to own: She was practically begging for me to do this and take her out on dates. But you know the sad dynamic... I too made excuses: The kids needed us home, babysitters were somewhat limited to her family (so she should arrange it), so on and so forth. I didn’t “do”, I made excuses never really contemplating what that really meant to her. It sounded ‘rational’ in my head; Those things weren’t important to me and everyone has a tendency to believe everyone is ‘just like them’ emotionally and shares the same ‘life’s rulebook’ for how it is supposed to be....

So, she started going out without me and nagging. I reacted by detaching and finding other things to do then spend time with this awful person. And so on and so forth... Both of us were feeding each other the opposite of what we needed to feel wanted, desired and loved. Looking back it isn’t shocking to me we ended up being extremely toxic to each other...

We’ve worked hard on finding that common ground again. So.... take the dating thing; That was my wife’s keystone. With kids, you can’t date all the time and go out. We do it as often as we can, but she’s had to learn to appreciate all the smaller gestures as well such as picking up her favorite bottle of wine, asking her to curl up next to me on the couch after I’ve shooed the kids elsewhere, etc. And for me, learning to appreciate holding hands, just feeling her against me and so forth without trying to push it to sex... 

Make sense?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTE I used to write my husband love letters all the time, and he enjoyed getting them, but his reactions were far less enthused than I particularly expected][/QUOTE]

Becasue if HE had written YOU a love letter like that "sponateously" and out of love it would have knocked your socks off...

So ......why wouldnt it knock his socks off???


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> I finally realized that I was trying to change who he was.


Agreed..I think everyone or most have a touch of this..some though to the point they want your "physical body" and then to mold your "core" (who you are) to fit your idea of perfection to an extent it would be like programming a robot..the actual person lost..uniquneness includign imperfections that make them "who they are " to hell with that ..

Its like I want THAT body and you can keep any trait I happen to like ...then you pick out a personality to put in the body that suits you perfectly ..usually a replica of your self but opposite gender ..AND or the "ideal" of how you "invision " "wife/husband"..


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

dallasapple said:


> So ......why wouldnt it knock his socks off???



Why it wouldn’t. Welcome to my theory of “life’s little rulebook”. Based on how you are, what your experiences have been, your influences, hopes and dreams... Everyone has developed their own book. They think in terms of it: If I do this, then I’ll get that reaction. Its how we predict and trust others because... well, you aren’t them. So, you just sort of make this stuff up in your head about how they should be and how they should react. For the most part, its generally not all that wrong. 

Add to this that there are probably quite a lot of folks out there that operate with nearly identical “specific rules”, so finding that justification is easy; “That’s what so and so also believes!”. But not everyone is the same. There are variations and all sorts of ‘rulebooks’ out there. I also hate to say it, but boys and girls are different; Experiences and influences were not the same at all, particularly about sex. And because your spouse and you so very closely aligned on a lot of things, it is all to easy to assume you think alike without consideration of these differences.

That is the catch. There may be specific things where you don’t see or react at all the same. My sin was: When we hit that conflict, I could not really whole heartedly acknowledge we are different, but both still be right. That’s when the stubborn streak gets in the way. I try to reason her to following my rules. She tried to punish me until I made a correction to follow hers. Neither of us would accept the other was right as well. We were too caught up in our own little rulebook that ‘this person wasn’t following the rules’ and therefore ‘wrong’ in a really bad and offensive manner to us personally. Consequences happened. 

Sucks that it took years and years to finally really start understanding that its fine to have a rulebook... but you can’t expect others to follow it. You need to learn theirs and see if its still compatible or where the common ground is so you can both operate in the overlapping areas or at least translate and understand how they ‘tick’.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Racer said:


> Wasn't taking away from you Dallas... Just triggered my situation... Saying 'not so nice' things and finding faults isn't exactly going to be on anyone's 'makes me hot' list.
> 
> 
> Actually, I’ve never been asked that question... Yes, no, all of the above...
> ...


Yes, it makes sense. And I'm happy to hear things are better. I hope that your wife will return to the bedroom with passion soon.  

Marriage, even when you've known the person you're married to since childhood(like my husband and I) takes a lot of work to understand the person you've married. My husband still doesn't understand me or how I think, and I can't say I really understand him either. lol. We're trying to, but it takes time.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

LOL!!! I already knew the answer Racer..my question was rhetorical..


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Becasue if HE had written YOU a love letter like that "sponateously" and out of love it would have knocked your socks off...
> 
> So ......why wouldnt it knock his socks off???


Yes, when he writes me those letters is absolutely knocks my socks off. And my shirt...and my bra... lol. 

Ya know, I really don't know why it doesn't do much for him. He likes getting words of affirmation, so I thought letters would be a good thing to do. But he prefers me to speak the things I would have otherwise wrote down. I still write him letters, and occasionally, what I write will strike a chord with him and he'll be very, very touched. On our anniversary he asked me to write down what I thought of him in a letter(which surprised me), and instead of saying things all fancy and fluffy, I wrote in plain speech what I thought of him as a person, and what I like about him. He actually teared up reading it. 

Sometimes it's what he needs, other times it's just an extra. Either way, I enjoy writing them.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Agreed..I think everyone or most have a touch of this..some though to the point they want your "physical body" and then to mold your "core" (who you are) to fit your idea of perfection to an extent it would be like programming a robot..the actual person lost..uniquneness includign imperfections that make them "who they are " to hell with that ..
> 
> Its like I want THAT body and you can keep any trait I happen to like ...then you pick out a personality to put in the body that suits you perfectly ..usually a replica of your self but opposite gender ..AND or the "ideal" of how you "invision " "wife/husband"..


 I heard a funny quote by Barbara Streissand. It said, "Women spend years trying to change their husbands into who they want them to be, and once they have succeeded, they complain that he's no longer the man she married." I think this can apply to both genders. 

For me, I felt that his faults were effecting me emotionally. (I was very immature relationally) So it would be best if I could persuade those faults to be eliminated. What I eventually realized what that these "faults" weren't faults at all, they were his personality traits AND, moreover, they were things that had caused me to fall in love with him the first place. Yet suddenly they annoyed me? 

I had to realize that the issue was me, not him. I wasn't used to living with him and being around him so often, and he was getting on my nerves. Plain and simple. I misinterpreted that to mean something much more complicated, and hurt his feelings for months because I couldn't see how I was tearing him down...not building us up. 

Now, he does have a tendency to be playful and immature a little too often, so I've had to ask him to more serious and romantic with me. But I've also learned to lighten up and play with him more as well. Except, we don't play cards or boardgames together. He _always_ wins and that's just not fun. lol.

Anyway...got a little off topic there...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTE I could not really whole heartedly acknowledge we are different, but both still be right.][/QUOTE]

Different but right or wrong has nothing to do with it..just plain different..

If I say "honey crisps apples are the best apples" am I different but right ?No Im different because my husband thinks Granny smith green apples are the best ...

Im "resovled in my opinion and taste"..hes "resovled in his opinion or taste" we arent "right or wrong ..

Now my husband will tell me WRONG honey crisps are NOT the best apples..Granny Smiths are becasue they contain less sugar(good for him hes the diabietic not me )...

Oh and TECHNICALLY ???The most nutrient dense apples ounce for ounce are Fujis..But even MORE techincally? Whats best for the body is variety of all the different apples..A Fuji one day ..a Yellow Delicious the next...a Braeborn the next...a Granny Smith the next...a Red Delicious the next..(do the researhc its true apples are best for your body in roataion of various species as well as go ORGANIC!):smthumbup:

O.K SMART ASS!!! LOL>>

Where did ya'll thnk I got my "debate skills" which I have barely used here ...

Its being married to someone who thinks their OPINION is "right" and mine is WRONG..His FEELINGS or what his FEELINGS would be if HE were ME(in MY situation IF he were ME) wouldnt be the saem as mine ...because his feeling are "right" ..

Its "competitive"..

I swear..Let me be extreme ... me:"gosh my stomach hurts" ..him: are you sure your stomach hurts mine doesnt "..

Me: ..Im cold..

Him:..well Im not..its warm in here ..

Me:..I smell something burning...

Him:..hmm..maybe your sensitive I dont smell a thing (30 mintues later hes opening the doors and windows because the pizza he put in the oven dropped cheese onto the burner that began to burn to a crisp and create black smoke that filled the house ) ..I say ..

Thats what it was I smelled that cheese ..

Him ..No thats not what you smelled this happened after you said that..

Me:..the air conditioning in my car doesnt seem to be working ..

Him: well did you turn it on ?

Me.. Yes I turned it on ..

Him:..well you know you have to wait for the car to cool down it doesnt cool down instantly.. 

Me:..you mean 45 mintutes and its still not cooled down ?(I have lived in Texas THIRTY years I KNOW it doesnt cool down from a 160 degrees in a car to 68 in a minute or two )..

Him :Are you sure you turned it on ?(right)..

Me :YES I turned in on right..

Him:..hmm..well I drove that car for years and the air conditionig always worked for me ..but every car is different..

Me: I was thinking about getting a job..part time at Old Navy ..sounds fun and heck we could as most use the extra money..

Him: so you are going to let them use and abuse you ?

Me :I LOVE this vine..I want to plant it along the fence..

Him: So you want to ruin the fence just to plant vine?

Me :Im painting this bedroom ..its needed ..

Him: So you are going to tear up that room and leave a mess for me to clean up?

I could just go on ..But my heart weights 400lbs..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> With flowers, poems, letters. Less is best. Often is okay. None is bad


I agree..even though I have never gotten a "poem" ..

I got "Cheap Trick" ...

Serioulsy Im not kidding 15 or so years after marriage my husband dedicated a song to me..I though it might be some cheezy thing like "your my lady " something or another(how great I am) ..but it was I WANT..(not a "tribute unless you go with his idea Im LUCKY he even "wants me)..

This one..

Cheap Trick - I Want You To Want Me - from Budokan DVD - YouTube

Hes "begging me to beg him was the highlight of how much he loves me...:scratchhead:


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> My wife got into a habit of doing that for a while. I would say something she completely agreed with or had said before and the first words out of her mouth were "yea but....".
> 
> It was a dynamic that she had with her sisters and she did not notice she did it. For that matter she did not agree with me that she did until I pointed it out every time for a while (weeks) .
> 
> She's fixed me in a few ways too .


Yeah..its like "first disagree"..(hypocratic oath)..

I like red ..WRONG blue is the best color..

AUTOMATICALLY "disagree" ..

Never pause and say .."I can see that " ..or "sounds good to me"..NEVER..

ITS beyond RUDE and its competitive not "same team" stuff..

NEGATIVITY..nto "consturcutve imput" just FIRST reject..Makes me not evne want to talk ..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

YEP..."I want you to want me" was my "compliment"..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> More like a me me me song instead of you you you.


Im developing an emotional attachment that you understand..but I guess its no differrent if you were female..??

Its just when there is NO poems no sweet sentiments other than HOT sex sexy sex girl..Maybe SOMETIMES you want like ..I dont know NON sexual stuff..

So when he said in the car flying down a majr Dallas highway I have a song for you ..I guess I was "anitcipating" something other then how horny he is and how he wishes I was JUST as horny (for him)..

He had NO idea why as I was listening to that (his didication to me) was NOT a compliment!Its like he got my "hopes up" that it was more than that and its not..

His mind ..his eyes..are focussed on ONE thing and ONE thing only..


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> [QUOTE I could not really whole heartedly acknowledge we are different, but both still be right.]
> 
> Different but right or wrong has nothing to do with it..just plain different..
> 
> ...


I like this example. I use the broccoli/asperagus example, but this also works. People typically don't have strong held opinions on their fruits and vegatables, so it is a great way to make this point.



> Me :I LOVE this vine..I want to plant it along the fence..
> 
> Him: So you want to ruin the fence just to plant vine?
> 
> ...


Any truth in his comments to these? Not defending the other stuff, but my wife can do this as well. She has great ideas but does not think past them and wonders why they can't be done right away or why I don't want to do them. We put a ton of time and effort into the brick pavers for the grill, but then she wonders why I object to her suggestion to tear them out the next summer to put a window in for the basement. She is not wrong for the suggestion, but I don't feel wrong for being upset over a bunch of work that she seems to treat like it is no big deal.

Not saying that you (or my wife) intend that, but that may be the message being received.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I think your situation is a sad one, dallas. I'm sorry to hear it.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

dallasapple said:


> Im developing an emotional attachment that you understand..but I guess its no differrent if you were female..??
> 
> Its just when there is NO poems no sweet sentiments other than HOT sex sexy sex girl..Maybe SOMETIMES you want like ..I dont know NON sexual stuff..
> 
> ...


Everything you say about him fits a narcissistic personality to me.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Yeah..I investigated that possiblilty .Everyone has narsisism to an extent..I think he may be more narcassistic in some ways than others but not to the extent I would say he had full blown "disorder' by the definition narrcissitc (pathological) people despise the need for affection ..they will tend to be affectionate as a means to manipulate by offering and witholding but think its a pathetic quality in persons who crave it (physical affection ) thats one thing about my husband he is EXTREMELY affectionate besides the sexual touching..he likes to hug..hold hands..kiss..just put his hand on my leg in the car ...etc...

His "aversion" is in communicating verbally words of affirmation non sexual..(or non physical)Or words of encouragement comfort..If for example Im worried about something or sad...He either tells me I shouldnt be ...or the other thing he does is jump on my worry and feed off of it and before its over he has the whole world is goign to end and how much worse everythign will get to where I END up soothign MYSELF LOL!!Like ..well I dont think its that bad and your completely inventing things now with this dooms day scenerio predictions..or I end up DEFENDING the person I am havign an issue with or sad about (if its another relationship) because he will end up comepltelty demonizing them with character assasinaton ..

He actually told me when I think he finally understood what I even MEANT by affirming (NON sexual/non touching) and encouraging that it was "not in his make up" to say things like that he said he even will think things like that but cant say them ..Postitive words...while negative words sentiments and comments come VERY easy to him they just roll off his tonge..

Then the competiveness..hes a "I can do anythign better then you can ,I can do everything better than you " ..type of guy..even in my "field of expertise" he argues example Im the long term SAHM that has learned how to determine when a child needs to be seen by a doctor or if it should wait because most likely antibiotics aretn required..I will determine ..O.K I think they need to be seen ..he will say " well I dont think its necessary but if thats what you want you should take him "...Im like its not what I 'want' its what i think is needed...so I take them..sure as the world the "common cold" has turned into bacterial infection ..the dr.gives antibiotics exaclty 24 to 48 hours after starting the antibiotics they greatly improve he says "I still think he wouldnt have gotten better without the antibiotics its just a "coincidence"..IOW I was wrong he was right in spite of the pretty obvious..He wont say ..I trust your judment on that I think you would know whats best" then when they are better say "thats wonderful glad you decided to take him".Its "well I personally dotn think thats necessary but 'you do what you want then dismisses the success story ..Like he doesnt trust me even though I have NEVER given him reason to doubt my judgment on that..I dont over medicate my children in fact Im very cautios about that..He seems to resist giving me any credit ....

But then again thats of course just ONE example of how its almost like he has no "neuro pathway " LOL>>For postitvie reinforcement /words of encouragement or praise..

But this sort of ties in to learning how to accept love languages ..and accepting not every need is going to be met let alone every need 100% or even 90% of the time..The only thing I can do is point it out ..let him know how this attitude has negatively affected me ..at the same tiem i have to acknolweldge he DOES show me love in HIS way..and in some ways that other women would love..even though Im sure they would struggle with this one issue he as thats pretty darn defeating..

So you count your blessings..I can be assured unless he CANT do it (act of services) pretty much I can ask him for any help and he does it...he is naturally a "gift giver" I mean just little things he will pick up that he knows I like even special food items..Or a little cheezy gag gift ...besides asking him for any act of service ...he just auotmatcally does things for me that I never asked him to do nor do I expect ..example he might need to use my car (I have an SUV he has a sedan) while he has it he takes it to be detailed..he doesnt mention it I just get in the car and its emacualte and sparkly all shined up...he for no occassion ON occassion brigns me flowers..hes a hard worker..he spends time (because he WANTS to ) with our children and grandchildren ...

IOW I have a pessimistic hyper critical micro mangaging control freak husband who on the one hand has relayed to me in a sense Im a complete idiot(according to him Im too "stupid" to know where to grocery shop and I dont know how to do laundry) ...not very dependable.."wrong" 99% of the time..his ideas are better ALWAYS...my feelings are "wrong" ...that loves me very much..LOL!!

Thats why I get left with ..but WHY do you love me ?And please dont say because Im 'hot" ...


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