# Need advice



## Sundayfunday2021 (Dec 5, 2020)

So sex in my marriage . It can be wild and hot but that’s the confusing part about it . My wife and I been married for 7 years . Both in our 30s with two children . Im a freak I’ll admit it . I like all kinds of sex and don’t really have much in terms of limits . It is what it is but everything feels good if it’s done right . . My wife when we started dating was quite and a little shy at first and i hit her with some dirty talk and she loved it . Then when we got our own place we started to get some sex toys and explore more . Now here’s where it gets confusing . 
I know all women watch porn but mine never confesses to me she does . I’ve caught her denied it . I’ve seen it in her phone denies it . I’ve told her I don’t care I want her to . So a few months back she finally admitted 5 years ago she used a toy by herself ?!??! What like really.. I was in shock not because she used it because she admitted to me but said 5 years ago .so now during sex dirty talk always consists of another girl or couple . She always starts it off with I want to lick my pu..y with you . So I generally graduate to I want to see another girl ... and we get so into it . 
she becomes so turned on that I can feel the faucet wide open down there . Now rewind it back How did I come to this . I noticed the porn she watches . Step mom caught me with neighbor , 4 way girl on girl , and a bunch of other all basically girls on girl and most is hardcore . I mean at one point she would make me scissor her . 
so fast forward to current time .One day we are all crazy dirty talk in messages and I bring up girl on girl and she goes ballistic . I’m tired of you telling me how I should feel or how I do feel about other women . It’s a fantasy not reality. I’m like babe I think it’s more realistic then you think and I don’t care it’s fine . I love it and she just snaps . 
so last night we went at it and I didn’t utter a word but teased her with it a little . She licked my face when and tasted herself and so on . Then today she said why didn’t you talk lastnight ? 
this is the confusing part because it’s like she’s scared to death about anything sexual if we aren’t in it . Is she bi and if she is why won’t she just tell me . I won’t care and she’s got to know that by now . What am I missing? Is it possible for a women to fantasize that much get that into it and not be ?


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

No it does not sound like your wife is bi or if she is a little bit bi she is no where near ready to go from fantasy to real life experimentation. It sounds like it is what she says it is, fantasy. There are plenty of people who might fantasize/watch porn about something like same sex play but have zero desire to actually play this out in real life. If you looked at my wifes porn watching history there would be plenty of crazy stuff there that she would never consider doing in real life. 

She is pushing back pretty clearly on what she sees as you trying to pressure her into something she doesn't want to do. Even if you ground her down and got her to try out something like a threesome based on her current stance It will not end well. 

My wife has always had some bisexual desires. In her late thirties and early forties she wanted to experiment and we did after a lot of thinking and slowly dipping toes into the water. We had a number of FMF threesomes. Today she no longer has a strong desire to be with other women. During this period we were members on a couple of different swinger sites and met quite a few couples in "the lifestyle". What I can tell you for certain is your situation is one which anyone who has been involved in the lifestyle successfully for some time would see as a huge red flag and would tell you it's a no go. 

Your current situation is one that will end badly if you keep pushing her beyond the fantasy. Maybe there will come a day where she wants to take it to the next level but that is a choice that she needs to come completely on her own, any pushing or continual encouragement from you is only going to be a turnoff from her or she will do it for you and most likely resent you for pushing her to do something she wasn't ready for. She is basically saying to you let me enjoy my fantasy and stop bugging me about it. And stop thinking you know what is in her head better than she does. That is probably how she sees your encouragement.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Ditto on a lot of what @happyhusband0005 said. I'm not as certain as to the no go, but it will become that if you push it. It is not uncommon for men or women (but good luck getting any but the most comfortable admitting it) to have just enough of a curiosity that they are willing deal with their own fluids or body. The woman willing to kiss or more after he has eaten her. Him performing oral after he has had an orgasm inside her. If a person is flexible enough, self oral is also not unheard of. To most, it just another form of masterbation, not a homosexual act.

Continue to reassure her if evidence comes up porn use, that there is no problem. Same for masterbation, toys or not. But don't try to push a fantasy. Now if something new comes up, it's alright to check if it might be something she wants to try. 

Now given the shyness, make sure she knows that she has to be open about what she wants to do, or what might be hard limits, at least of now. It does seem like there has been things she didn't want to admit to that she ended up enjoying. Point this out and ask how she wants you to broach subjects to feel it out. She has to be as responsible for the exploration as you are. It's not your responsibility alone.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Sundayfunday2021 said:


> So sex in my marriage . It can be wild and hot but that’s the confusing part about it . My wife and I been married for 7 years . Both in our 30s with two children . Im a freak I’ll admit it . I like all kinds of sex and don’t really have much in terms of limits . It is what it is but everything feels good if it’s done right . . My wife when we started dating was quite and a little shy at first and i hit her with some dirty talk and she loved it . Then when we got our own place we started to get some sex toys and explore more . Now here’s where it gets confusing .
> I know all women watch porn but mine never confesses to me she does . I’ve caught her denied it . I’ve seen it in her phone denies it . I’ve told her I don’t care I want her to . So a few months back she finally admitted 5 years ago she used a toy by herself ?!??! What like really.. I was in shock not because she used it because she admitted to me but said 5 years ago .so now during sex dirty talk always consists of another girl or couple . She always starts it off with I want to lick my pu..y with you . So I generally graduate to I want to see another girl ... and we get so into it .
> she becomes so turned on that I can feel the faucet wide open down there . Now rewind it back How did I come to this . I noticed the porn she watches . Step mom caught me with neighbor , 4 way girl on girl , and a bunch of other all basically girls on girl and most is hardcore . I mean at one point she would make me scissor her .
> so fast forward to current time .One day we are all crazy dirty talk in messages and I bring up girl on girl and she goes ballistic . I’m tired of you telling me how I should feel or how I do feel about other women . It’s a fantasy not reality. I’m like babe I think it’s more realistic then you think and I don’t care it’s fine . I love it and she just snaps .
> ...


You are reading too much into it. just enjoy what is on offer and leave it at that. Go only where she leads you into her thinking. You lead her into your thinking. Do not lead her into hers.


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## Sundayfunday2021 (Dec 5, 2020)

I wasn’t pushing at all . I’d laugh about it and make jokes but that’s all . See the thing is when we are having sex 95% of the time she starts it off with . I wish I was licking that with you . 
I feed into it and go with it. Tonight for example in doggy position . She starts it off by wow feel my clit . So I do and she says omg I need someone there . So I wasn’t going to say anything and she I just pushed into her more and she goes **** in need something in front of me . I said what do you want baby . She says a girl in front licking her like this . This is why I’m so confused because I know it’s a fantasy because wits every guys fantasy . 
My question 1 is can a girl really not be into girls when you get that involved with a fantasy
2 Why is she so secretive about anything to do with sex . I’m as open as a book not her so much . Is this a common thing ?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

"I know all women watch porn" 

that is b.s.
lots of women would not watch porn if you paid them.
i think you are projecting


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> "I know all women watch porn"
> 
> that is b.s.
> lots of women would not watch porn if you paid them.
> i think you are projecting


I read that only 1/3rd of women watch porn. Perhaps they realise how degrading it is for women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Sundayfunday2021 said:


> I wasn’t pushing at all . I’d laugh about it and make jokes but that’s all . See the thing is when we are having sex 95% of the time she starts it off with . I wish I was licking that with you .
> I feed into it and go with it. Tonight for example in doggy position . She starts it off by wow feel my clit . So I do and she says omg I need someone there . So I wasn’t going to say anything and she I just pushed into her more and she goes **** in need something in front of me . I said what do you want baby . She says a girl in front licking her like this . This is why I’m so confused because I know it’s a fantasy because wits every guys fantasy .
> My question 1 is can a girl really not be into girls when you get that involved with a fantasy
> 2 Why is she so secretive about anything to do with sex . I’m as open as a book not her so much . Is this a common thing ?


Just because she says things like this doesn't mean she wants it to actually happen, surely you realise that? Or are you hoping it WILL happen because you claim its 'every man's fantasy?'. You are very fond of making sweeping statements such as 'all women watch porn' and that certain things are 'every mans fantasy'. Both are of course not true.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Women are just as sexual as men. Women are just as titillated by the thoughts of group sex and nonmonogamy etc as men. Women are just as turned on by sexual imagery as men (but maybe not necessarily the same kinds of imagery) And women are just as driven by novelty and variety as men. 

In fact the older and more experienced in the world I get, the more I think women are the sexual Ferraris and men are the sexual Prius's. 

We live in a culture today where women are still seen as the virtuous ones and men are seen as dogs and degenerates and baffoons that can't control their own desires and keep it in their pants. But when you go back in history, women were seen as the immoral and seductive one and the one that needed to be secluded from society and have chastity belts applied and to be kept under guard to protect the virtue and morality of men. 

So where I am going with that is women have an amount of social and religious programming and what we call ****-shaming today as a means of trying to exert control over their sexualities. Women are subject to so many mixed messages and social naratives, many of which tell them that they must keep a tight lid on their sexualities and behave in the perfect 'good-girl' manner and you have Lance Mannions of the world posting graphs telling them that if they get with more than one man they will be incapable of having a healthy relationship, marriage and family, and you have sex ed in schools that emphasize the horrors of unplanned pregnancy and STIs etc and that abstinence and monogamy are the only path to survival of the free world. 

So yes, women will deny their desires and their fantasies and their yearnings and curiosities because they have been told since they were toddlers that their sexual feelings and thoughts and desires were bad and would make them unworthy as people in a polite society. 

cont......


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So you wife has had that sex-negative programming since basically birth. 

But she is also a flesh and blood human that DOES have desires and fantasies and curiosities. 

She is also reaching an age and a station in life where she has followed the rules of the church ladies, has obtained the mate and the home and family. Has achieved a level of financial security and social acceptance as a functional adult........ and is starting to chip away at the chains of social/religious dogma and restriction. 

I'll be blunt here, pillow talk, the discussions of fantasies in bed, watching porn and discussing the feelings, fantasies and desires it stimulated etc etc were exactly where we were in our late 30s when we decided to start dipping our toes into the swinging lifestyle. 

We chose to step over the line from fantasy and take it to reality. We spent a couple years having very open and honest discussions and took many baby steps incrementally inching our way into the lifestyle. 

We ended up spending roughly 10 years as very active swingers. 

I probably should write an entire book but I will make a few key points here - The defining factor here is whether you keep this as pillow talk and dirty talk while in bed and keeping it in the realm of fantasy vs whether you talk about while you're in the car on your way to get groceries or while you are both out working on the yard or digging around in the garden. 

She'll deny it publicly here, but I am willing to bet the farm that even @Diana7 has fantasies of Brazilian oil orgies or Roman gladiators and the Senator's wives flash through her head while making love with her husband at various times. 

We all have those fantasies and mental images etc while we are aroused and engaged in sex in the moment - But when it is time to have the heart to heart talks is when you are out of bed, fully dressed and doing mundane daily tasks like filling the car with gas and mowing the lawn and you still think it would be fun and interesting to try. 

.. and then it is time to start having some open and frank discussions about it when you are out of the bedroom, fully dressed and not in an aroused and stimulated state. 

Now I have to warn you - you can't push or pressure this. If it appears like YOU have an agenda and you are just being manipulative and slimy in an attempt to get your junk wet with another chick, she will shut it down in an instant and be pissed off at you bringing it up. 

But if you approach this as a marital dynamic as a couple like you would any other household subject like the city raising your water and sewer rates or the kids needing braces or noticing an oil spot under the car in the garage, then it is valid subject for discussion as a couple. 

Cont.....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

IMHO you have a right to know where she stands on this and what her desires and agendas really are. We all have a right to our own thoughts and fantasies, but since she is the one saying she wants other hands and mouths and bodies in the bedroom while you are aroused and engaged, I think you have the right to know whether this is truly just fantasy and lively pillow talk - or whether she is having desires and curiosities about other people that she actually wants to explore and experience. 

I do believe as spouses we have the right to know if our partners are wanting expend the boundaries of marital sexuality. 

The way you determine this is to have open, nonjudgmental discussions about it when you are out of the bedroom, fully dressed and not in a sexually aroused or stimulated state.  This is a marital dynamic issue and needs to be openly discussed as such. 

If while she is fully dressed, not aroused and having a discussion about a marital dynamic, she states she likes the fantasy but does not want to take that into the real world, then that is her answer. 

If she hmmms and hhaaahhhhs and looks at the floor and then admits that she does has some curiosities and yearnings that she does want to explore, then that also is your answer. 

Cont....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> .
> 
> If while she is fully dressed, not aroused and having a discussion about a marital dynamic, she states she likes the fantasy but does not want to take that into the real world, then that is her answer.
> 
> If she hmmms and hhaaahhhhs and looks at the floor and then admits that she does has some curiosities and yearnings that she does want to explore, then that also is your answer.


What you haven't stated here is what YOUR desires and agenda and boundaries and such are. 

If she comes back and says she does not want to do this in real life, are you going to be relieved and glad..... or are you going to be disappointed and bummed?

If she comes back and says yes she does want to explore this further, are you going to jump for joy and be thrilled..... or are you going to be threatened, freaked out or even angered? 

My Spidey Senses and The Force are telling me this is something you are at least somewhat interested in exploring. That's fine, I certainly understand, as I was in your same spot years ago. 

But what is crucial here whether you do or do not want to do it, is to do your absolute very best to keep these discussions open minded and nonjudgmental and not use it as a means of pushing your own agenda. 

These need to be fact-finding discussions to determine where each of your hearts and minds are at and not a means of manipulating the other into pursuing your own agenda. 

What to do with that information and how to proceed from there is a whole other topic for a whole other thread. 

You are on Step #2 of a 10,000 step journey here whether you ultimately decide to exploring nonmonogamy or continue with an exclusive marriage for the next 50 years.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Women are just as sexual as men. Women are just as titillated by the thoughts of group sex and nonmonogamy etc as men. Women are just as turned on by sexual imagery as men (but maybe not necessarily the same kinds of imagery) And women are just as driven by novelty and variety as men.
> 
> In fact the older and more experienced in the world I get, the more I think women are the sexual Ferraris and men are the sexual Prius's.
> 
> ...


I dont know what sort of world you grew up in but I dont know a single person who was told any such thing as a toddler or child, and the things you mention may apply to some sort of very strict religious order but in the west they just dont apply to the vast majority of the population, religious or non religious.
As far as I know the OP hasnt mentioned his wife as being repressed or religious either.


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## Sundayfunday2021 (Dec 5, 2020)

As far as my quote on “ all women watch porn “ ok maybe not every single of one them do but a big majority do . The newer generation of adults are way more out there then older generations . That’s definitely a fact .
As to my situation 
Is it pillow talk yes I believe it is but my issue is the fact that she keeps everything as a secret . Myself I’m very open I’ll tell her straight out I have no issues with that at all . 
she won’t and that’s the weird part because of how sexual I am . It’s not like I would freak out over it . 
another perfect example she has told a friend she’s kissed a girl years ago . Never told me and I asked a while back . 
She watches porn girl on girl gets off on it and bring those fantasy’s to sex with us . She instigates the wild talk like last night . 
Is it that while she’s in the mood she’s more open and more scared when she isn’t . Her aunt and Uncle are gay . 
Now what’s my role in all this honesty .. Nothing drives me more wild then knowing how good it is for her to get off .I wouldn’t even have to be involved I’d be happy . Weird ... Maybe ... that’s just me tho . Also I should add . About 7 months ago we took a ride we spoke and that’s where she admitted finally she used a toy by herself and I laughed and said only once really ... I bought them for that reason ... Then we spoke about the whole girl on girl thing and she opened up . She said well it would have to be someone who’s down it before . Someone who would be able to do it to me in order to make me feel comfortable. I brought that up last week and she denied it . 
see I don’t mind the pillow talk and dirty talk but if you say how badly you want it then say you never really did you just have a fantasy for it . How is next time suppose to turn me on now that I’m thinking it’s a lie . Now I know someone will say but she is the one you’re suppose to be turned on to yes I am but if we are talking and thinking And she says one thing and I’m thinking she’s lying that’s going to throw off the whole thought in process .


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Sundayfunday2021 said:


> As far as my quote on “ all women watch porn “ ok maybe not every single of one them do but a big majority do . The newer generation of adults are way more out there then older generations . That’s definitely a fact .
> As to my situation
> Is it pillow talk yes I believe it is but my issue is the fact that she keeps everything as a secret . Myself I’m very open I’ll tell her straight out I have no issues with that at all .
> she won’t and that’s the weird part because of how sexual I am . It’s not like I would freak out over it .
> ...


Its said that 30% of women watch porn, that leaves 70% who dont, so wrong again. I agree that young people are more immoral than older ones yes, but many young women dont watch porn. 
So your wife is different from you, what is wrong with that? Neither of you are right or wrong, you are just different. Just believe what your wife says and dont accuse her of lying. Its irrelevant that her aunt and uncle are gay, its not hereditry. Fantasies are not reality. 

I fear that you want to bring another woman into your marriage, thats why you are here. You want her to ask for that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sundayfunday2021 said:


> As far as my quote on “ all women watch porn “ ok maybe not every single of one them do but a big majority do . The newer generation of adults are way more out there then older generations . That’s definitely a fact .
> As to my situation
> Is it pillow talk yes I believe it is but my issue is the fact that she keeps everything as a secret . Myself I’m very open I’ll tell her straight out I have no issues with that at all .
> she won’t and that’s the weird part because of how sexual I am . It’s not like I would freak out over it .
> ...


Some of this is simply the difference between the girls and the boys. 

If boys are sitting around talking about wanting to play baseball, they will go outside and play baseball even if all they have for equipment is paper plates for bases, a stick for a bat and an old ratty soccer ball. They will play baseball and not think twice about it. Boys are typically "doers" and not really talkers, thinkers or feelers. 

a group of Girls on the other hand may talk about wanting to play baseball and they will discuss how fun it would be say how either great they would be or how bad they would be and they will laugh and talk about their feelings about it and such but then one will point out they don't have a 3rd base coach and they will have a laugh and then move on to the next topic of discussion. 

I'm being pretty oversimplified of course but it's to make the point that men are nuts and bolts and behavior/action oriented even if the face of adversity and imperfect conditions. 

Women are more apt to interact and discuss and share feelings and concepts and ideas but don't always succumb to the idea to actually do it. 

It has been men that built pyramids, landed on beaches under a hail of gunfire and explosions and it was men that were strapped onto rockets and shot to the moon. You don't catch women pulling stunts like that. (some day women will go to the moon, but you get my point) 

The bottom line here is to the male brain when their partner says she wants to rub up against another woman, he will start looking through their contact list on his phone and friends list on Facebook to see who they can invite over that evening. 

Where to the woman, she is simply putting fleeting thoughts and feelings and images into words. 

This is why you need to have these discussions when you on your way home from picking up tile caulking at Home Depot and have an open, frank and nonjudgmental discussion when you are both in a nonaroused state.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

....and to be fair, one of the reasons a lot of women probably don’t always share their girl/girl fantasies is what I said above - men will start working on making it happen. 

A personal example; at the end of our swinging career, my wife and I were camping together just the two of us on our anniversary a number of years back and we were sitting around the campfire having some drinks at night reflecting on life and discussing that our swinging lifestyle was in the final acts.... and I asked her if there was Something she always wanted to do that we either never had a chance to or never got around to or just hadn’t ever come up before.

She does have a voyeur streak and One of the things that she has always wanted to do but that we never had was basically some kind of Hot Husband/Girl Cukold type thing where she sat quietly in the shadows and just watched me with another woman.

We had had threesomes and couple/couple and group sex scenarios before, but never one where she just watched from the sidelines. 

The next few days I kind of racked my brain thinking of how to pull that one off and I ended up calling up an old FWB from 30+ years prior. 

My old FWB had always been a wild child and free spirit and we had had great chemistry in the past and had always remained in good friendly terms and so I called her up and ran it by her. 

She asked me a few questions to make sure I hadn’t fallen off the rails and make sure I wasn’t messing with her but long story short - she accepted.

When I went back and told my wife I had found someone to indulge her fantasy, she was flabbergasted and shocked and maybe a bit miffed that I had taken such liberties.

I was standing there in my male bewilderment wondering what the problem was and reminded her that this is what she said she wanted to do. 

And her response was, “ well yeah it’s always been a fantasy and something I always wanted to do, but that didn’t mean I wanted you to actually go out and do it!” 

.....and this someone that had been in that lifestyle for basically a decade at that point. 

Now we discussed it openly, came up with a plan, she and FWB chatted back and forth to each confirm the other was onboard and that I wasn’t pulling anything and the 3 of us got together and a good time was had by all. 

But my point is this, women are thinkers and feelers and they talk about their ideas and feelings but don’t always want to do what they think or feel.

Men are doers and fixers and put things into action - - - especially if it means threesomes with other chicks!!!!!!!! LOL 😂 

But it kind of applies to everything else as well. If a guy’s wife says it would be fun to spend the holidays in New Guinea, he’ll try to find New Guinea on a map and start looking into travel packages. 

And then he’ll stand there looking all befuddled when she says they can’t really go to New Guinea because her Aunt Charlotte from Ohio is coming to visit over the holidays.


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