# Betrayed men



## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women, though that gap seems to have closed in the most recent generation. If you read discussion boards, you'll find just as many betrayed men posting about D Day as women. 

There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I have been betrayed by two women, maybe three if you count flirting, so i qualify as a betrayed man. I finally found a good one though, after 8 years together, were as good
as when we got married (great).

I have always been somewhat naive when it comes to women though. Their cheating always caught me off guard and I was totally in denial ("how could she do that; I thought we were all good?!!??").
As far as society or infidelity recourses, I had no clue. Didn't even give it a thought. Wasn't on my radar. It was just me and my little shattered world.

It wasn't until I joined this forum that my eyes opened up to what's going on out there.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I will never believe that women cheat as much as men, just because of what I've seen over my long life. I think they want to trust and give too much benefit of the doubt. Also they're usually not overall as sexually driven. 

I think men are even more vocal about it because it wounds their pride and they are more touchy about sexual self-confidence and always comparing themselves to past lovers and wanting to think they're the best and get very wounded in that respect compared to women. Women may be saying "What does he see in that ugly cow" he cheated on her with and not be able to fathom it, but they're not in danger of going limp because of it.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I will never believe that women cheat as much as men, just because of what I've seen over my long life.


I think that used to be true, but this generation of women seems to be a lot more sexually active and reactive. It's difficult to get accurate stats on infidelity because of it's secretive nature.



DownByTheRiver said:


> think men are even more vocal about it


Again, I'm not so sure about this. I think men are less likely to want to talk about it with their friends and support systems than women.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I think that used to be true, but this generation of women seems to be a lot more sexually active and reactive. It's difficult to get accurate stats on infidelity because of it's secretive nature.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I'm not so sure about this. I think men are less likely to want to talk about it with their friends and support systems than women.


I'm a child of the 70s, when people truly were sexually active to the max, right after the advent of birth control and before bad diseases, so I do not think women today are more sexually active than then. I think there is a produce of people not wanting to live life except on the internet or leave their house much and all that affects things. 

But being sexually active does not correlate as directly with women as it does to men. Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

jorgegene said:


> As far as society or infidelity recourses, I had no clue. Didn't even give it a thought. Wasn't on my radar. It was just me and my little shattered world.


I suspect a lot of men either suck it up and try to move on or end the relationship/marriage but are too embarrassed to admit why. I'm glad you found out you weren't alone.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't know if women cheat as much as men, but it seems to me that when they do they are more likely to leave the marriage over it.

Men who cheat usually don't want to leave the marriage, they just want a side piece. That may be related to the idea that men get screwed in divorces, which is less true then it used to be but probably still the case.

Also, men seem to be more shocked by it. In times past when women couldn't leave it was understood that men could do whatever they wanted as long as they didn't abandon the family....male cheating was accepted by society. So male cheating is painful but not shocking for us.

Women had much more to lose so their cheating had to be on the down low, so fewer people knew about it. But now women openly cheat like men and men have had to get used to this.

Hell, before testing a guy had no idea if his kids were his unless an obviously different race was involved.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

jorgegene said:


> I have always been somewhat naive when it comes to women though.


Wow! Me, too! Maybe that's why I've become such an a-hole. Once I realized what was going on, I felt stupid.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Sfort said:


> Wow! Me, too! Maybe that's why I've become such an a-hole. Once I realized what was going on, I felt stupid.


Eh, there's plenty of good women and bad women. Men just have a tendency to use hotness as a litmus test instead of character and are then shocked when she turns out to be a jerk.

No different from a woman picking a guy based on money and then being shocked if he's a jerk, but we're usually not shocked because we know it's a business deal.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I will never believe that women cheat as much as men, just because of what I've seen over my long life. I think they want to trust and give too much benefit of the doubt. Also they're usually not overall as sexually driven.


Women hide things MUCH better than men, and it's pretty universal. 

If men are cheating, do you think they're only cheating with single women, or the same 5 single women are sleeping with 2 dozen men? 

Unrelated example, Autism tends to be thought to affect boys way more than girls, but we're learning just in the last few years that's not entirely true especially in those with higher intellect - not to the extent the numbers have shown historically. Girls just hide it better and it presents as anxiety rather than outbursts.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

dubsey said:


> Women hide things MUCH better than men, and it's pretty universal.
> 
> If men are cheating, do you think they're only cheating with single women, or the same 5 single women are sleeping with 2 dozen men?
> 
> Unrelated example, Autism tends to be thought to affect boys way more than girls, but we're learning just in the last few years that's not entirely true especially in those with higher intellect - not to the extent the numbers have shown historically. Girls just hide it better and it presents as anxiety rather than outbursts.


Sleeping with different men isn't cheating. It's only cheating if you are committed to one man or supposed to be. Being single isn't the same thing as cheating!


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

*Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large?*

THE PHYSICAL AFFAIR

The enormity, significance and complete obliteration of all things caused by the Physical Affair. Perhaps I feel different than most or not ...........I don't know. But the gap between an emotional affair and kissing to a physical one where another man has ENTERED a girlfriend, fiancé, wife can't even be measured.

From a practical perspective it's all infidelity but for me there's no comparison. I'm not in any way minimizing emotional affairs and kissing (which is just a precursor to screwing) but actual full intercourse is the end of all ends for me. I don't necessarily feel that many feel the same way, judging by the many who reconcile.

I was cheated on by two fiancés. Confirmation of actual sex taking place severed both relationship immediately and permanently. To answer the question, resources that point to the "why's" or "FOO issues" or therapy means nothing to me personally. So perhaps I should say I don't understand resources.

I see so many things repeated here and I'm still at a loss. Just a couple and I realize I may be off the original question perhaps.

1) My wife/girlfriend/fiancé was (depressed/lonely/felt unloved/ etc). I understand those things, but what does that have to do with you pulling your panties off and welcoming another man? I don't see the connection. What's there to talk about here? In both instances of being cheated on, I had no details because they are and were MEANINGLESS to me. As a young teen I asked my mom to divorce my dad to him screwing up family finances, so I've always been this way.

It's like saying to a husband that just punched his wife in the eye and breaking her cheekbone. If the husband said, I thought you were cheating or you danced too close with that other man you left our child unattended too long, etc. Yes, I understand this but what exactly led him to go from that to closing my eye shut with a punch? Anger..... I understand this too but that's not my problem. That's his problem of which I would not adopt under any circumstances with all the love in the world factored in. But we're talking about a punch with force behind it to cause permanent injury.

There's NOTHING aside from saving your own life if approached with a gun or knife that justifies punching or hitting a woman. PERIOD. If I'm a woman whose husband (who she love very much) punched her, his ass is leaving permanently unless some prolonged personal recovery is exhibited lasting at least a year before I would CONSIDER reconciling. Not to reconcile. Consider reconciling.

2) Saving the Marriage - What marriage? You save what's special and remove what's not. Many seem to default to saving the marriage and I'm like.... huh? I'm not referring to couples with kids inasmuch as couples with kids who are grown and/or are childless. If you were to read 100's of stories, you'll find as many childless spouses unwilling to leave their cheating spouses as ones with kids. Makes me wonder if SOME with kids are just afraid and use the kids as justifiable reasons to stay.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Sleeping with different men isn't cheating. It's only cheating if you are committed to one man or supposed to be. Being single isn't the same thing as cheating!


Agreed, but my point is, do you really think the cheating men are ONLY sleeping with single women?


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

colingrant said:


> *Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large?*
> 
> THE PHYSICAL AFFAIR
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your perspective. I don't think you're alone with the point of no return being at intercourse. It is quoted a lot that men have the hardest time getting over the sexual act (intercourse), while women have the hardest time with the emotional part of infidelity. I don't know if that's true or not (since women whose husbands have sexual addictions, especially those who pay sex workers, and men whose wives sext other men or develop emotional affairs still all suffer)...there seems to be evidence on both sides. Definitely it all sucks and destroys trust. I think you're right; sex with an AP is often a mortal wound to the marriage.

I think some people stay after decades of marriage for different reasons. A lot of women at this point don't have the same retirement funds as their husbands. Some people genuinely see it as a very bad part of what was otherwise a great marriage. Some may be codependent or don't want to see the extended family gatherings awkward or divided up. I think it's complicated.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

dubsey said:


> Agreed, but my point is, do you really think the cheating men are ONLY sleeping with single women?


I think they're mostly sleeping with single women they fooled into thinking they're single.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Sadly, there are a lot of affairs between married men and women that start in the workplace. Read _Not Just Friends_ by Shirley Glass.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm a child of the 70s, when people truly were sexually active to the max, right after the advent of birth control and before bad diseases, so I do not think women today are more sexually active than then. I think there is a produce of people not wanting to live life except on the internet or leave their house much and all that affects things.
> 
> But being sexually active does not correlate as directly with women as it does to men. Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting.


I'm also a child of the 70s.
I don´t agree with some what seem to be some of your assumptions (though I may be missunderstanding you).

What being sexually active does not correlate with is with infidelity, or not necessarily.
Even if you equate sexually active with only casual sex when single, that is not cheating.
In the other hand, a strong, passionate sexual life whithin a monogamous couple (based in mutual desire whithout harming exclusivity) is also possible.

But..........
"Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting."
.....being this true, it doesn´t exclude infidelity as "cake eating"


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm a child of the 70s,


I think that back in your younger days, even my younger days for that matter, men were definitely cheating more. Just based on my own personal observations from when I was a young man vs now but even the ladies from my generation have started cheating willy nilly now that they have gotten older. I think cheating is much more even now. 



> Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting.


This is true to an extent. I know my ex wife really wanted to settle down and get married. She kinda pushed me into it but I went along because I felt it's what I should do. Well, she wanted to settle down, have a nice beautiful wedding, and play house for a while but after a year she gave up on that notion. I think that happens to a lot of ladies. They want to play house but they get bored with it quick and then they monkey branch and cheat on their way out the door, just to start the same process all over again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Twodecades said:


> Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women, though that gap seems to have closed in the most recent generation. If you read discussion boards, you'll find just as many betrayed men posting about D Day as women.
> 
> There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


I think cheating is pretty universal and I think it always has been. I think it's probably 50/50 as far as husbands and wives go, and I think it always has been so. I think there was a much more vested interest in covering it up in the past when women cheated, that is not to say they didn't cover it up when men did too. There was and still is the sexiest notion that men are dogs and cheating is in their nature, but also if a wife cheats it's because he couldn't keep his wife satisfied and in line. So both the husbands and wives wanted to avoid the stigma, particularly when divorce was seen as so shameful. We are SO LUCKY to live in a time when divorce is so much less stigmatized. How many people have been set free from assholes because of that.

That is not to say I think there was a much cheating in the past, at least the POV type. I think the potential for pregnancy keep some people on the straight and narrow back then. Men have had some form of birth control and there for sexual agency for longer which may explain why people thing men cheat more, and maybe I am wrong and that's true. However with the prevalence of affordable female controlled contraception I suspect some women of weak character are more apt to cheat now then they would have been in the past. I don't think either gender is more honorable or less so in this regard, it's all about opportunities. Just more opportunities now.

As far as I can see it, in general men have an easier time with emotional affairs, and women have and easier time with physical ones. And I think most marriages die after there is infidelity. They may stay together but the marriage is dead. It's a rare person that I don't think is lying when they say how great their marriage is afterwords. Seems to me they have to spend all their time telling everyone how great it is, when they never had to before. People with great marriages hardly say such.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I've never believed that men cheat more than women. I think if there were hidden cameras following every woman 24/7 for life, we would quickly find out it isn't even close. Women are better at covering their tracks and keeping things on the down low. 

In my mid-upper 20s I was with several MW, some for several years. Frankly for me, it was easier than dating single women. And I am not some cool studly hunk. I am very average at best and pretty nerdy. (if anyone wants to discuss old Twilight Zone episodes, I am your man! LOL) 

I think if the ultimate truth were known, women surpass men by a good degree. Women are simply better at being discrete and covering their tracks. Men are more likely to get caught and aren't as discreet and secretive in their sexuality. Girls learn to hide their sexuality and cover their tracks by the time they're 14. 

Some of it also purely logistical. Men have to work to cheat. Unless a guy is a pro athlete or some kind of celebrity or very very good looking, he often has to work hard to cheat. That puts him at greater risk of getting caught or for people seeing what's going on. 

Women in general are often quite remiss to be a MM's side piece and unless a man is of higher social status or really good looking, most women don't anything to do with a MM. 

Women on the other hand can simply give a guy a wink and motion him into the cleaning closet at work or into a bathroom at a bar and a few minutes later walk out like nothing happened. Easy peasy lemon squeezy. 
And men will line up and do the "Pick Me!" dance for a woman that wants a side piece. Truth be known, it's probably easier for a MW to get an OM than it is for a single woman to get a proper date. 

And one of the biggest reasons I think MW actually outnumber MM is the only available statistics on adultery are self reported and MW simply are not going to be honest on a questionaire and rat themselves out even if it is annonymous. There is a huge under reporting of all female sexuality. If there were hidden cameras following all women 24/7 we would find that female infidelity is actually more widespread than peanut butter. 

Add it all up and I don't think men are even in the same ballpark. And I think that spread is going to continue to grow going forward into the future. 

In days of yore women faced stiff social and financial consequences for adultery. Those social, legal and financial barriers are coming down by the day. "You-Go-Girl" is becoming a battle cry and legally/financially it is almost downright advantageous for women to cheat. 

A woman can marry a good provider, get knocked up by some hot hunk at the gym or at work. Chump husband will likely be legally obligated to support the child even if it is proven via DNA that the child is not biologically his. Then she can cheat again with some other chump that makes even more money, ditch first husband for other chump, She will get half of the marital assets and resources and exH will get stuck with child support on kid that's not his and may even have to pay spousal support and she will have her own cheering section cheering her on and giving her high-fives for her legal and financial savy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Eh, there's plenty of good women and bad women. Men just have a tendency to use hotness as a litmus test instead of character and are then shocked when she turns out to be a jerk.
> 
> No different from a woman picking a guy based on money and then being shocked if he's a jerk, but we're usually not shocked because we know it's a business deal.


So much wisdom in this little post.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> That is not to say that there was a much cheating in the past, at least the POV type. I think the potential for pregnancy keep some people on the straight and narrow in the past. Men have had some form for a while which may explain why people thing men cheat more, and maybe I am wrong and it's true. However with the prevalence of affordable female controlled contraception I suspect some women of weak character are more apt to cheat now then they would have been in the past. I don't think either gender is more honorable or less so in this regard, it's all about opportunities.


I betcha fear of pregnancy did not stop women from cheating in days of yore. Paternal/child blood testing has only been around 100 or so years and can only narrow down if someone might possibly be the father. It was far from conclusive. 

And paternal DNA testing has only been around for what, a few decades if that?? 

So for millennia women got away with passing other men's children off as the husband's without any reliable means of proving otherwise (assuming similar race of AP) 

In days gone by, women may have even intentionally gotten pregnant by genetically superior men and passed them off as the H's on purpose.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Genetically superior men, what constitutes that in the 1800? More horses?

So I have read probably five thousand cheating stories now over the past 5 years. Besides the ones with mental illness, or where the women is a serial cheater, where cheating is a part of her lifestyle, I can think of maybe 5 where the women picked a guy because of his money or something like that. Maybe 100 where she picked him because he was better looking or more attractive. The vast vast majority of them, I'm talking thousands, it's all about the affair partner making an emotional connection with her. He then uses that to bond with her and play to her sexual nature. She wants to be emotionally close to him and sex helps her get there. Genetic superiority as a philosophy like Red Pill would state it has nothing to do with it. Unless you are willing to admit that women in general put a premium on the emotional intelligence of their mate. If that is the genetics you are talking about then I am in agreement with you.

As long as guys keep thinking this way they are going to continue to be blindsided by cheating. 

This **** isn't really that hard. Teach your sons that women think exactly like men and not to get so bent out of shape about it. Some are good, some suck. It's the ridiculous tendency of men wanting to Angelize or Infinitize women that causes the problem.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Genetically superior men, what constitutes that in the 1800?


The same as it did in 10,000 BC and the same as it does now - bigger, stronger, taller, better looking, faster, more assertive and dominant etc


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Genetically superior men, what constitutes that in the 1800? More horses?
> 
> So I have read probably five thousand cheating stories now over the past 5 years. Besides the ones with mental illness, or where the women is a serial cheater, where cheating is a part of her lifestyle, I can think of maybe 5 where the women picked a guy because of his money or something like that. Maybe 100 where she picked him because he was better looking or more attractive. The vast vast majority of them, I'm talking thousands, it's all about the affair partner making an emotional connection with her. He then uses that to bond with her and play to her sexual nature. She wants to be emotionally close to him and sex helps her get there. Genetic superiority as a philosophy like Red Pill would state it has nothing to do with it. Unless you are willing to admit that women in general put a premium on the emotional intelligence of their mate. If that is the genetics you are talking about then I am in agreement with you.


Something within the OM made him seem like a bigger better deal (BBD) than her H..... at least at that time. Each woman will have her own criteria and own perspectives on what made her think he was a BBD. 

Maybe it was fame and fortune. Maybe it was looks. Maybe it was emotional intelligence (whatever that is) Maybe he was more masculine and dominant. Maybe he was more feminine and submissive. But something flipped her attraction and desire switches. 

I do think you are under representing the role of looks and physicality in female adultery however. 

But first we need to understand that not all adultery is created equal. If some MW's H gets fat and lazy and loses his job and sits around drinking beer and playing video games all day while she is out bringing home the bacon, yes she will cheat and leave him for a more financially stable and responsible man. 

But if the H is a solid provider and has a lot of financial resources and stability and a generally good Joe, then she may hook up with Sven From Yoga at the gym with the abz and the gunz on the down low and remain in the marriage. 

Even though they say don't choose their mates on looks publicly, women are just as effected by looks as men are and will just as likely cheat with a hot hunk as man will with a young, hot babe who's willing. 

The difference is there are far far fewer really really really really good looking (I'm channeling Zoolander here) men in the world. 

Women will duck into a cleaning closet at work or the back seat of a car at the gym parking lot with a really fit and good looking guy. They just don't run into those guys very often. And when they do, they often either take it to their graves or they will tell they very best BFF who she has an equal amount of dirt on and swear each other to secrecy. (Side bar: always tell a potential BH to look through his possible WW's txts and emails etc to her BFF when investigating suspected cheating. She will delete txts and emails from the OM but she may forget to delete the txt to the BFF telling her how hot he was) 

I'm not dismissing what you are saying above about emotional connections turning sexual. In fact I am somewhat inclined to believe that in the cases of actual ONGOING AFFAIRS - those which often eventually blow up and get caught and cause chaos and marital strife which then show up here on TAM and in the offices of MCs and lawyers all across the country. 

But remember not all infidelity and hook ups are created equal. 

The hook up with the hot hunk at the bar on a Girls Night Out or Sven from Yoga is often a random and self-limiting event that NEVER gets discovered. These actually happen a hellofa lot more than ever get discovered or reported. 

Follow a Chippendale around for a few days or follow some of the more prolific NBA players or rock stars around or the heterosexual Calvin Klein underwear models. These guys are bust'n nuts inside married women in bathrooms and night club parking lots and hotel rooms and the back of tour buses etc etc etc day and night. Some of these encounters are 5 minutes or before her friends are even noticing her missing. 

These are the unreported and undiscovered encounters. These are the WW that come home, wash their underwear and fix supper before the BH sets his briefcase down when he walks in the door at home. Most will never know it happened. 

And women will deny these to their graves because there is absolutely no trail of evidence and often no witnesses and what witnesses there are from a GNO, they each have the goods on each other so they each keep their secrets safe.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Eh, there's plenty of good women and bad women. Men just have a tendency to use hotness as a litmus test instead of character and are then shocked when she turns out to be a jerk.
> 
> No different from a woman picking a guy based on money and then being shocked if he's a jerk, but we're usually not shocked because we know it's a business deal.


This.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> Sadly, there are a lot of affairs between married men and women that start in the workplace. Read _Not Just Friends_ by Shirley Glass.


There's lots of all kinds of cheating going on with people they met in the workplace whether they're married or single. It's where you accidentally get to know someone and have feelings for them or want to boink them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> I think that back in your younger days, even my younger days for that matter, men were definitely cheating more. Just based on my own personal observations from when I was a young man vs now but even the ladies from my generation have started cheating willy nilly now that they have gotten older. I think cheating is much more even now.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true to an extent. I know my ex wife really wanted to settle down and get married. She kinda pushed me into it but I went along because I felt it's what I should do. Well, she wanted to settle down, have a nice beautiful wedding, and play house for a while but after a year she gave up on that notion. I think that happens to a lot of ladies. They want to play house but they get bored with it quick and then they monkey branch and cheat on their way out the door, just to start the same process all over again.


My ex-boyfriend that I work with for so long had a psycho second wife, but he couldn't see it because she cried all the time and so he thought she was sincere. He told me she just bugged him and talked him into marrying her and then she was the one that cheated right under his nose. I think she thought she was just trading up. She did marry the guy she cheated with who was a friend of mine that I used to work with who was very good looking. She ended up getting arrested decades later for doing credit card fraud and ID fraud on her own husband and son.

I could see through her from the beginning and it's things like that that make me wonder if men actually look for ethics within a woman about anything other than sexual.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> .
> 
> As long as guys keep thinking this way they are going to continue to be blindsided by cheating.
> 
> This **** isn't really that hard. Teach your sons that women think exactly like men and not to get so bent out of shape about it. Some are good, some suck. It's the ridiculous tendency of men wanting to Angelize or Infinitize women that causes the problem.


On this I am in complete agreement. Neither gender has the moral superiority. neither is more or less likely to cheat than the other based on moral or ethical grounds. 

However the common woman has it 625,927 times easier to cheat than the common man, can pull it off with much lesser risk of getting caught and is much more adept at covering her tracks after wards. 

Women's sexuality and sexual programming and agendas are different than men's. They are not less sexual (valid arguments can be made they are actually more sexual) And they are certainly not more moral or less cunning or less self serving. 

Their methods and their opportunities and motives are simply different. 

If the world wants to believe that men are the cheaters, then assuming they're not all gay, then we need to be asking ourselves who they are cheating with - cause if they ain't gay, then they ain't cheating with other men.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> It's the ridiculous tendency of men wanting to Angelize or Infinitize women that causes the problem.


This reminded me of the hopeful mindset of a bunch of incels and otherwise dating impaired guys on another forum who are always saying the object of their desire was shy when she simply wasn't interested in him and was doing the deep freeze. They thought an inordinate amount of women were shy. I'm 68 years old and I've yet to meet a woman who was so shy that she wouldn't talk to a man she was interested in.

I say hopefully up there because a lot of these guys are so fearful that they are hoping that there is a woman who is even more fearful than they are because that's the only ones they could have any confidence with.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Something within the OM made him seem like a bigger better deal (BBD) than her H..... at least at that time. Each woman will have her own criteria and own perspectives on what made her think he was a BBD.
> 
> Maybe it was fame and fortune. Maybe it was looks. Maybe it was emotional intelligence (whatever that is) Maybe he was more masculine and dominant. Maybe he was more feminine and submissive.  But something flipped her attraction and desire switches.
> 
> ...


So are there women who will go for the Chippendale's guy or NBA player, sure. You would be a fool to marry someone like that. This is the equivalent to the day trader trying to buy the Maserati. If you are fool enough to marry someone with those priorities then you are SOL and will probably be cheated on. I got no advice for you because you already messed up by thinking long term with someone like that. I mean if I had a Son I would tell him, if she has an Instagram account where her ass has a staring role, have fun but that's it. If I had a Daughter I would tell her if he is a Pro-Athlete, Entertainer or generally someone whose goal it is to get all the things money can buy, have fun but don't marry. Shallow people will cheat for shallow reasons.

Besides I always say 85% of the potential of a successful and faithful marriage happens at the picking stage.

What I am talking about the type of people worth investing time with, people with some depth. Those people still cheat and some of them have it in their nature. In those cases I think the vast majority of women who cheat are attracted to the emotional connection. That is what the predator at the office uses as a bate. He is looking for the wife whose husband IS not as connect emotionally as he should be.

I mean you have read on here, I can think of like 3 Marines right of the top of my head that made great money, all of them would conform to what RP calls Alphas. Yet their wives cheated on them with losers. I mean this is a very common story. I submit a lot of times it's because these guys prioritized providing financially over emotional connection with their wives, precisely because that is what they thought would keep their wives. I have no doubt being an "alpha" type guy attracted their wives at first, but over the long haul as far as I can tell if you are a husband you better have a very good emotional read on your wife. You better be trying to connect with her. You better talk to her and make her laugh. Now not all women will cheat and that is no excuse but she will certainly be tempted, in the same way a guy whose wife doesn't have sex with him is going to be tempted more then a guy whose wife is an active participant in physical intimacy.

So I got to say this whole idea of be and Alpha provider stuff is just antiquated and bad advice to me. It's also kind of common sense. Getting your **** done and being successful shouldn't really need to be motivated by making sure your wife stays into you. That is just what you should be doing as a man, it's sad we have to have some philosophy to tell you men to get their **** together, women or not. When it comes to relationships though I think it misses the point, and that is particularly the case now where most women are more then capable of providing for themselves. They just don't need guys to do that, except in a very small window when kids are young. As far as I can tell, to have a good marriage you better have strong emotional intimacy with your wife.

All that being said, I think maybe 75% of all these stories have nothing to do with the husband, the wife was always going to cheat. It was in her nature. Seems to ma lots of women now a days just can't keep a good man. They self destruct. Same goes with the sexes reversed.

It's interesting to me that when someone cheats it's always the faithful person who lost the cheating spouse. I really don't think that is the case. Like I said it's the cheater who blows up and can't keep hold of the faithful spouse, or the stability of their marriage. The language infers that the cheater is precious and they are the loss. Truthfully it's the other way around, loyal people have much more value. 

The whole thing is backwards. Just like this idea of trying to do everything you can to keep a women that would cheat on you. That is so like the Red Pill. They rail and rail against these types of women, and then they write a whole philosophy to try to get them to like them, and prevent them from cheating. How stupid. The point is to stay away from women or men like that. That is your only chance.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> So are there women who will go for the Chippendale's guy or NBA player, sure. You would be a fool to marry someone like that. This is the equivalent to the day trader trying to buy the Maserati. If you are fool enough to marry someone with those priorities then you are SOL and will probably be cheated on. I got no advice for you because you already messed up by thinking long term with someone like that. I mean if I had a Son I would tell him, if she has an Instagram account where her ass has a staring role, have fun but that's it. If I had a Daughter I would tell her if he is a Pro-Athlete, Entertainer or generally someone whose goal it is to get all the things money can buy, have fun but don't marry. Shallow people will cheat for shallow reasons.
> 
> Besides I always say 85% of the potential of a successful and faithful marriage happens at the picking stage.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with anything you've said in principle. It all makes perfect sense, except for one little catch. 

That catch is people don't wear labels on their foreheads so you're not going to be able to tell what "type" of person someone is. 

But the real catch is the "type" of person that would do those things are the ones that have ovaries. 

And another point I was making above is these are the undiscovered and unknown encounters that people have had. These may be but are not necessarily the ongoing or long term affairs that are often the ones that get brought out into daylight. 

This is where the Rule of Threes comes where you take the number of lovers that a women tells you she's had and multiply it by 3. They don't tell you about the ones you'll have no way of finding out about. 

Yes it would be nice if you could have a label on someone's forehead to tell you if she met Sven From Yoga out in the back of the parking lot, but you're not going to know. 

And even if someone hasn't hooked up in some undiscoverable twist in the past, that doesn't mean that it won't happen in the future if all the stars line up. A storm knocks out the satellite, the husband is out of town on business, the kids are at school, the WW is ovulating, she's a little edgy and noone is around so she gets into her box wine a little and then the Satellite guy shows with his wavy blond hair, deep blue eyes and rippling biceps under his shirt that is a little too tight and the way he wears his tool belt says a little too much on how he can use his tools. 

And yes, he has learned how to flirt and work his gaze and has learned how to spot the ones that are just a little too on the bored and frustrated side. 

Does every single woman on planet earth bop the satellite guy or Sven From Yoga or an NBA player?? No, of course not. Some simply haven't had he opportunity or tripped over their own feet and let the opportunity(s) go by or maybe Sven From Yoga was distracted or had other things to do when all the other stars were lined up. 

But every woman on Planet Earth has that potential and has that vulnerability because they are all human. 

That's where you are a little off on your Red Pill comments. Yes Red Pill does kind of talk about dealing with that "type" of women, but that is because that 'type' of woman are the humans with the ovaries. 

It's simply recognising what we are as humans and working within that framework. 

Key points here are women are no less sexual, no less kinky or perverted and absolutely no more moral or ethical than men. When they encounter a man that find very attractive and very desirable that flips her switches when she is ovulating and there is no one around to witness, she is not going to be any more angelic or saintly or morally superior to a man that encounters a Swedish Bikini Model that is DTO with no witnesses. 

The difference between the boys and girls is men's sexuality is often spontaneous and they have a constant hormone level and they are on average much less visually appealing and desirable compared on average to women. 

And women's hormonal levels are cyclic and their sexuality is often responsive in nature and there are far far fewer men that they find sexually desirable. 

But when those stars line up, women are not the least bit morally superior to men and if you are going to rely on a woman's morality and religious upbringings to keep her out of other men's beds, you're going to be disappointed. 

You can't really be angry or resentful about that because it is how we were all constructed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women,


In days of yore, women were considered the immoral ones. 

The narative of men being dogs is a comparatively recent convention.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> In days of yore, women were considered the immoral ones.
> 
> The narative of men being dogs is a comparatively recent convention.


Can you give examples of what you mean?


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

@Laurentium, I apologize if I'm overreaching, but I saw you mention in another post that you have experience counseling infidelity. Do you have any insights re: how men experience betrayal differently and/or what helps them in the recovery process? I think you mentioned that they seem less aware or suspicious than betrayed women before D-Day, or something to that affect?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> Can you give examples of what you mean?


Well for starters Eve in the Garden of Eden. 

From there we have the stoning of adultresses, Scarlet Letters, chastity belts, bride burning, witch hunts, female circumcision, denial of education and employment outside the home, arranged marriage, child marriage, polygamy, the right to vote in 1920, right to abortion in 1973, the continued ban on contraception in the catholic church, denial of same sex marriage until 10 years ago, denial of individual credit cards and bank accounts to married women, denial of contraception to single women and even current denial of surgical sterilization of married women without husband's consent (not a law but a number of individual doctors will deny) I can keep going but I think you get my point. 

Current feminist narative will say that all of these things are due to the patriarchy and men's attempt to control and oppress women. 

But we need to ask ourselves, why would we need to control and oppress women if they are the morally superior race? Hmmmmmmm??

If they were sweet and innocent and pure of heart and mind, why would we need to lock them in the castle and strap chastity belts on them? If they were morally superior and not able to corrupt and tempt, why would we need to stone them or have scarlet letters or set them on fire? 

If they are so virtuous and defend their own virtue and honor, why do we need to cover them in bed sheets from head to toe and not allow them to leave the house without a blood relative male in escort?

If they are so honest and responsible and morally incorruptable, why didn't we allow them to vote in this country for 144 years or why wasn't a married woman allowed to get a credit card or a bank loan etc until maybe the last 40 or 50 years??

During all of our lifetimes we have been told that this is male oppression and male attempt to exert control and dominance and we see it as bad and wrong. 

But in the thousands of years before this it was distrust. It had to be distrust. If women are morally superior and more moral and more ethical and pure - why were they the ones being locked in the tower???? 

If men are moral degenerates and untrustworthy, then why aren't they being locked at home and only allowed to leave the house with a female relative escort? 

If men were the ones causing immorality in the community, then why weren't 13 year old boys being married off to 30 year old aunts and cousins to keep them from being temptors in the community? 

If men are the sexual deviants, then why are they wearing contraptions on their genitalia to keep them from having sex with people they aren't supposed to? 

This current narative that men are the cheaters and the immoral ones and that women are kind and pure and above reproach is very comparatively new concept.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This is one of those great topics that is quite easy to overlook because it gets bogged down in all of the mucky rhetoric surrounding it. How MEN cope with infidelity is very easy to misinterpret, mis-state, or simply fall into old hyperbolic tropes. Going to need to think about this for a bit. I'll try to relate my own experience, but very interested in what others have to say.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'll throw this out there as well - if women are more virtuous and morally superior, why do we have DNA paternity testing today and why is it showing a statistically significant number of biological children that are not the husband's?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> I saw you mention in another post that you have experience counseling infidelity. Do you have any insights re: how men experience betrayal differently and/or what helps them in the recovery process?


Honestly, there are no big obvious patterns. Every case is different. For either sex, the key question is often _"how will I know this can't happen again?"_ And "you're not who I thought you were... who are you _really_?"

For the wayward to say anything that sounds like _"we just need to put this behind us and move on"_ is usually disastrous. 

There are some crucial variables, like how long did the affair go on for and how much effort went into covering it up. Was the affair partner known someone the BS knows (which generally makes it worse)? And who colluded or helped to cover it up? Is the WS willing to cut those "enemies of the marriage" out of their life?

I know there are people on this forum who've looked at more cases of infidelity than I have.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> @Laurentium, I think you mentioned that they seem less aware or suspicious than betrayed women before D-Day, or something to that affect?


I don't know what Laurentium said so I can't answer that specifically. 

But IMHO, a lot of BH's prior to the discovery of the affair were often in lackluster bedrooms if not actual DBs. Their WW often appeared very LL or even asexual to them. When questioned about it, many of the WW would give the standard line of not being in the mood or being too stressed with kids and bills etc and if they did have sex with the BH it was often very detached and just another household chore they were expected to tolerate. 

So yeah, when the BH comes across her email to her OM talking about how much she soaks her panties just thinking of all the passionate anal sex and whips and chains and swinging from the chandeliers with the Chinese Acrobats that she and the OM have been having, they are completely thunderstruck. She was always a sex beast - just not for the BH and he couldn't see it. 

And as I said above, women do a much better job of covering their tracks and cloaking their sexuality. They also have a much easier time getting APs so they do not have to put themselves out there or incur much risk in finding an AP. The APs often come to them and then when the coast is clear all she needs to do is give a little wink and nod and they are off to the races.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I don't disagree with anything you've said in principle. It all makes perfect sense, except for one little catch.
> 
> That catch is people don't wear labels on their foreheads so you're not going to be able to tell what "type" of person someone is.
> 
> ...


These are interesting points. But I have to think that there are people who, when the stars align, will choose to protect their marriage and family. And then there are those when the stars align, will not. I don’t think it’s a difference in sexes, I think it’s a difference in the type of person, there are those that will cheat, and those that won’t. Not whether they have girl or boy parts.

I have chosen on several occasions to absolutely protect my marriage. I even recognized the fact the male I was talking to was very attractive (not necessarily just physically) and there was a “something” dangerous there, so I every time immediately and reflexively pulled back and put more than enough distance and coolness between myself and him. This is how I’ve always been and how I am made. I feel the danger before it even becomes a danger and avert it. I can definitely say, I am not a person that would cheat. It’s reprehensible to me even before the situation I currently find myself... but I actively worked on several occasions not to put myself in a situation to find out if I would.

So I guess I’m confused as to whether you’re saying just as many women as men would cheat (which I believe), or are you saying all people will cheat under the right circumstances?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> But the real catch is the "type" of person that would do *those things *are the ones that have ovaries.


Please elaborate - what things?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I'll throw this out there as well - if women are more virtuous and morally superior, why do we have DNA paternity testing today and why is it showing a statistically significant number of biological children that are not the husband's?


Women are no more virtuous but they are also no less. Some people are good, some people are ****. It's not complicated.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> In days of yore, women were considered the immoral ones.
> 
> The narative of men being dogs is a comparatively recent convention.


Could it be because it wasn't considered immoral for a man to have sex with women other than the wife? In days of yore only men were allowed to have opinions. The days of yore didn't end in the US until August 18, 1920. 

It looks like women are catching up - they like to howl, too. Who knew?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> These are interesting points. But I have to think that there are people who, when the stars align, will choose to protect their marriage and family.


Most people will do this most of the time. 

Most people will end up doing this for most of their married life. 

A significant portion will do it their entire married life. 

Most people will reach the end of the line without cheating - just like most soldiers that landed in Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima and Okinawa made it home after the war in one piece. 

But like D-Day and Iwo Jima, the potential is always there. No one is guaranteed safe passage.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Most people will do this most of the time.
> 
> Most people will end up doing this for most of their married life.
> 
> ...


I, with life experience now, don’t believe most reach the end of the line without cheating. I think many, many just don’t get caught.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Women are no more virtuous but they are also no less. Some people are good, some people are ****. It's not complicated.


It IS more complicated than that. 

You are trying to put people into Good Girl vs Bad Girl columns. 

My premise here is there really are no columns, there's only people. Women are people and men are people. Women will respond sexually to certain stimuli and under certain conditions and circumstances. So will men. 

Those stimuli and circumstances will vary somewhat between men and women and will vary between individual to individual. 

Your Good Girl vs Bad Girl assumes that a bad girl will routinely stray under certain circumstances and that a Good Girl will not stray under any circumstances. Both are erroneous assumptions and both are buying into stereotypes. 

A wild child party girl who banged half the football team and the whole basketball team in college and then cheated on her first husband at 28 and then remarried at 35 may go the entire rest of her second marriage without ever cheating. 

Conversely, the virgin bride that went to a Christian girl's school could at the age of 49 after being married for 29 years hook up with Sven From Yoga after her husband gained 75lbs, went bald and now spends his days pounding down beer and yelling at the sports teams on the tv and hasn't touched her for years. 

Our destinies are not set. Our futures are not determined by whether we are good boys and girls or bad boys and girls. 

We are all human. We all have human feelings and desires and motives and boundaries and agendas. We all respond to the world around us and we are all prone to a wide array of temptations and desires and various conditions and circumstances. 

No one is immune. No one is guaranteed. Just because someone hasn't reached their limit today or has not met the one that makes their knees fold underneath them today does not mean they won't tomorrow. And just because their current SO has dropped the straw that broke the camel's back today, doesn't mean that they won't tomorrow.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> I, with life experience now, don’t believe most reach the end of the line without cheating. I think many, many just don’t get caught.


I hope you are wrong. I hope.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> Honestly, there are no big obvious patterns. Every case is different. For either sex, the key question is often _"how will I know this can't happen again?"_ And "you're not who I thought you were... who are you _really_?"
> 
> For the wayward to say anything that sounds like _"we just need to put this behind us and move on"_ is usually disastrous.
> 
> ...


Well like I said I have read this stuff for 5 years now, trying to understand this. I would say this, there are definite red flags to look for, types of behaviors. Types of people. Also past sexual trauma and mental illness are big red flags, I would be weary if they haven't had treatment. So I think it's like the classic story of the judge's answer about porn (I'm paraphrasing) - "I am not sure I can describe it but I know it when I see it". One needs to do a lot of reading of these stories but you really do see a pattern. Understanding this actually put my mind at ease about this because it wasn't like someone could completely go off the rails like it seemed to me at the time. 

That is a very scary thought. One day faithful the next off the rails but I think that is so rare as to not even be worthy of discussion. Very often those stories are really about a spouse who for years has chosen to see their unfaithful spouse very idealistically often to fit their world view, or to avoid confrontation. It becomes quite clear the the affair partner understands the cheating spouse's nature much clearer and the two are actually much alike. The affair partner understands the cheating partner much better then the faithful spouse. Very often there are years of boundary pushing and general selfish behavior that is purposely ignored.

With the caveat would be brain trauma or diagnosed mental illness, I do not believe the stories of the spouse who suddenly having an affair after being faithful for 40 years. If they have been faithful and do cheat usually it's after a long time emotional relationship with the person where boundaries are being pushed. They are also not that honest about their happiness in life maybe even with themselves. Which is why I am so big on telling men now important it is to have an emotional connection with their wives and to not do things that cause their wives to lose respect such as being mean to them or ignoring them. I think for women it's harder but i would say you better have sex with your husband and you better make it a priority, and at least pretend like you like it. 

Overall I would say with all of my reading I am at least confident that I can protect myself at the level of say going out an driving my car, which is to say I could die in an accident but I don't feel the risk every time I start the engine. With the infinite venerability of humans that is about the best you can do. 

By what do I know I am just some guy who has read a lot of message boards.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> So I guess I’m confused as to whether you’re saying just as many women as men would cheat (which I believe), or are you saying all people will cheat under the right circumstances?


Perhaps I am saying both.

I do not believe one gender is any more moral or ethical than the other. I do not believe that either gender is actually any more or less sexual than the other. 

And I do not believe that anyone , male or female, is immune or impervious to temptations or circumstances. - Some just haven't encountered the right set of temptations and circumstances yet.

I hope most people never encounter the right set of circumstances.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> No one is immune. No one is guaranteed. Just because someone hasn't reached their limit today or has not met the one that makes their knees fold underneath them today does not mean they won't tomorrow. And just because their current SO has dropped the straw that broke the camel's back today, doesn't mean that they won't tomorrow.


So, nobody is immune but our behaviors and motivations can keep us from doing the things that destroy us right?

I feel like I internally rail against your stance and I’m trying to figure out why.... it feels like your saying we have no power or control over our choices because we might be in a certain spot in our lives or emotionally. That suddenly lightning strikes at this place and our commitment to our values is kaput if the right situation arises. I tend to think the opposite, we have a choice at every turn, and those committed to their values and the love of themselves and family will always make the right choice... regardless of the circumstances.

Perhaps I don’t like your mindset, because there is a little voice inside me that does tell me that no matter who I’m with I’ll be unsafe, for exactly the reasons you’re saying.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> It IS more complicated than that.
> 
> You are trying to put people into Good Girl vs Bad Girl columns.
> 
> ...


I agree that this is the case for many but what you discount is character. Character can circumvent all that, commitment to ones character.

No one is immune to temptation true, but ones commitment to character will make you choose the right path over the one that gives you the most pleasure. I think your theory supposes that everyone ultimate motivation in life is hedonistic, I know that is not true. Avoiding cheating doesn't even have to be for a moral reason, it can be an intellectual one as well. If I do this the probable outcome will be bad for me so I choose not to this. Now I personally think both with an emphasis on moral followed by an intellectual understand that reinforces your choices it the best type of thinking pattern you want to look for in a spouse. I won't do this because it's wrong, and I feel good about this because I know the ultimate outcome will be bad.

The other big one I would add and one I am just coming to understand in the last year or so is courage. Courage it really the thing that makes you choose the hard and sometimes painful path over the one of least resistance. So if I am tempted and I know that in the current place and time the easiest thing to do to avoid pain is to succumb to temptation, courage is what makes me choose to feel the pain and avoid that choice. Even though at the time I know it will hurt. So much of life's long term success is really based on courage.

All of that I think are best described as one moral character. This is the most important thing you should look for in choosing anyone you will tie any part of your future too, then you can continue to make a determination base on all the other typical things. But first they must meet a moral character standard. You can't know that without a lot of experience with them, which is really the purpose of dating. More so then even chemistry or the like.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> e.
> 
> It becomes quite clear the the affair partner understands the cheating spouse's nature much clearer and the two are actually much alike. The affair partner understands the cheating partner much better then the faithful spouse.


This is a very profound statement so I want to highlight it. 

Although I am not sure you yourself meant it or even fully understand the manner which I think is most profound. 

The AP DOES understand and often embraces the WW's sexuality more than the BH. 

The BH was likely drawn to the WW initially for her beauty and sexiness. But the reason he wifed her up was he thought she would be good wife and partner and mother material for which to have a home and family. 

I'm going to have to use some Red Pill lingo here because I don't have any better words for it, but while he became betatized through daily routine and home and family and went from the strapping hunk to the beta provider in her eyes, He also betatized and desexualized HER in his own eyes. 

Yes he may have still wanted to have sex with her, but through years of home and parental life, he began to see her as less and less sexual and less carnal. 

They both betatized and desexualized each other. They already became a couple because of the other's beta traits and nonsexual characteristics - otherwise they would have remained hook ups or FWBs. 

But then over the years they desexualized each other and began to see the other as nonsexual caregivers and roommates. 
Along comes Sven From Yoga with wavy blond hair, deep blue eyes and all over tan highlighting his rippling biceps and abz. He starts to show her attention and appreciation. But he ain't complimenting how efficiently she can get a rambunctious 3 year old dressed and into the car seat to go to daycare, nor is he complimenting her ability to make the kitchen floor shine or how she makes a mean casserole. 

He is complimenting her on how her quads have toned up and are popping out now since the she started the class and flexibility of her legs and hips have improved and how much of her hourglass figure has returned. 

He doesn't know or even care shyte about her parenting or homemaking ability, he is seeing her as a vital and sexual being who's legs will fit over his shoulders quite nicely and how hot her bright red pedicure will look on his chest as he goes deep. 

BH lost track of that woman a long time ago,,, or at least he did in her eyes. 

Something awakens within her but it was awoke by Sven. Something she hasn't felt in a long time. 

So she starts to evaluate. Sven is taller, more fit and muscular, more tan and she sees him working out like a driven man at the gym. Sven sees her at her primal, animal core and her most vital asset - her sexuality. She doesn't see him sitting in front of the TV or finger banging his phone for hours. She doesn't see his socks and dirty underwear in the same exact spot on the floor for three days straight. She doesn't think he only wants her to chase kids and cook and clean - Eureka! He must be better than BH. He is a BBD!! 

Sven saw and liked her true, deep, primal, animal nature, where as she doesn't believe her BH has for years - Oh BH wanted sex alright, but in her eyes he only wanted to get his tank drained because it was full. He didn't want HER. 

THAT is exactly how APs trip those triggers and flip those switches. The rest is just a time and place with no witnesses.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is a very profound statement so I want to highlight it.
> 
> Although I am not sure you yourself meant it or even fully understand the manner which I think is most profound.
> 
> ...


This is one of the saddest things I have read here to date. It could be accurate I don’t know. What it proves is people should not marry. Ever.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> So, nobody is immune but our behaviors and motivations can keep us from doing the things that destroy us right?
> 
> I feel like I internally rail against your stance and I’m trying to figure out why.... it feels like your saying we have no power or control over our choices because we might be in a certain spot in our lives or emotionally. That suddenly lightning strikes at this place and our commitment to our values is kaput if the right situation arises. I tend to think the opposite, we have a choice at every turn, and those committed to their values and the love of themselves and family will always make the right choice... regardless of the circumstances.
> 
> Perhaps I don’t like your mindset, because there is a little voice inside me that does tell me that no matter who I’m with I’ll be unsafe, for exactly the reasons you’re saying.


Oh make no mistakes, we choose our actions. What we do with our genitalia is a choice. We make a thousand decisions and we take a thousand actions before the first downstroke. 

But when a certain level of dissatisfaction at home, attraction to another, circumstances and opportunity all intersect at one point with no witnesses, the choice can be made to go for it. 

Our attractions and desires can be influenced by our primal drives and programmings more than we care to admit. But we still make a choice. 

And that witch's brew of circumstances are all going to be different from one person to the next. What may mean nothing to you may be the straw that broke the camel's back for someone else.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Torninhalf said:


> This is one of the saddest things I have read here to date. It could be accurate I don’t know. What it proves is people should not marry. Ever.


I don't believe that and that is not the message I want to portray. I talk tough and harsh at times to make my point but deep down I am a romantic and a big softy. I think men and women are compliments to each other and we are all better when we are matched with the right person. 

I do believe in marriage and commitment and love and passion etc, but I do think it is incumbent on all of us to be aware of accept human nature. 

A part of me wishes I could go to bed at night and believe that my mate will never cheat or never leave or never fall out of love with me. 

But the reality is I have to do the work. I have to keep myself from putting on 50+ pounds. I have to dress well. I have to work and bring home an income to support a home and family. I have maintain that home and provide care and protection for that family. I have to treat her with love, respect and compassion. I have to provide for her sexual needs and satisfaction. 

And another reality, unfortunately, is that even if I do all of those things until I am laying exhausted and prostrate on the ground, someone else may come along and take her away or she may simply decide she's better off without and go. 

Harsh, but true. 

But, If I am aware of and accept that fact, I can at least be mentally and financially prepared for that. I have my own bank accounts and lines of credit. I have my own 401K, I have my own friends and family and my own hobbies and basically if I come home and she is gone, I'll shed a few tears in my pillow that night for the loss, but the next I will start living my new life on my own. 

We need to understand in this day and age that the vary act of marriage and being with a partner is a choice and not an indentured sentence. We aren't guaranteed of being together forever. 

The best we can do is make being with us as beneficial to the other as possible in hopes that they chose to remain with us. Hopefully they do the same for us. 

And we all need to be able to have our own lives and be able to carry on on our own if one day they simply aren't there anymore.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Most people will do this most of the time.
> 
> Most people will end up doing this for most of their married life.
> 
> ...


Are there statistics about this? What percent in a marriage will cheat sometime during? 1/2, 3/4, 9/10 what?

Stats I read were that 1/2 marriages ended in divorce, but only 1/5 of divorces were due to infidelity. That is like 1/10 of marriages or 5% of people married. I know this cant be true. Granted, most arent going to report on a survey that they cheated.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

My original question wasn't whether men or women cheat more or which gender is morally superior. I'm more asking what the differences are in how men and women perceive infidelity, and how they differ (or don't) in dealing with the betrayal. 

For instance, do you find this article to be true? I don't have the most trust in this particular magazine, but it raises some interesting points:









Why Men and Women React to Infidelity So Differently


... and why one has a more developed inner detective.




www.psychologytoday.com


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I agree that this is the case for many but what you discount is character. Character can circumvent all that, commitment to ones character.
> 
> No one is immune to temptation true, but ones commitment to character will make you choose the right path over the one that gives you the most pleasure. I think your theory supposes that everyone ultimate motivation in life is hedonistic, I know that is not true. Avoiding cheating doesn't even have to be for a moral reason, it can be an intellectual one as well. If I do this the probable outcome will be bad for me so I choose not to this. Now I personally think both with an emphasis on moral followed by an intellectual understand that reinforces your choices it the best type of thinking pattern you want to look for in a spouse. I won't do this because it's wrong, and I feel good about this because I know the ultimate outcome will be bad.
> 
> ...


Again, I agree with you in principle. All you say is true. 

But my theory is not that everyone's motivation is hedonistic. My theory is that everyone's primal motivation is the survival and continuation of their DNA on the plains of Africa. For that to occur one gender needs their DNA infused with their own. The other gender not only needs the DNA spliced with another but needs a vessel to carry it. And the best chance of survival for that DNA to replicate again is for both parents to raise it until it can survive and replicate on it's own. That process is way deeper and more brutal than simple hedonism. 

You're absolutely correct that our character and moral compass and societal mores and even statute laws all influence our choices. Our characters and values and mores etc will deflect dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of temptations and desires etc a day. Even the nastiest ***** in town will turn away a thousand fold more than she accepts and even the biggest player and the hottest rock star or pro athlete will strike out more than he hits a home run. 

But our life expectencies are almost 80 years. A lot can happen in 80 years. 

Things change. People change. Priorities change. Our motives, agendas and goals change. Our partners change and our lifestyles change. 

Lifelong monogamy with one partner for life is an utterly ridiculous concept in today's world. Yes there are people that do it, but how much pain and suffering have most of those gone through? Is that courage or is that actually fear? Is it morality or is it really martyrdom? 

I think the question we all need to ponder is are we all better off one way or maybe another? That is going to vary by individual. Yes we can all grit our teeth and suffer through for the next multiple decades until we die lonely, frustrated and resentful. But is that wise? Is it beneficial to anyone? 

Is the higher moral ground to hold everyone to some conceptual vow they made when they were young, dumb and full of hormones and make everyone miserable for the next 40-50 years? 

Is it really courage if what is keeping you in a situation actually fear????? Can fear be masked in morality?? Is it really morality if the real reason for doing something actually fear of the unknown or fear of the ramifications of a given action? 

Am I of good character if I allow myself to brought down into someone that I do not want to be? Am I of good character if I let my partner fade away bit by bit, day by day into someone that is so anxious and depressed that I no longer recognize her?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> My original question wasn't whether men or women cheat more or which gender is morally superior. I'm more asking what the differences are in how men and women perceive infidelity, and how they differ (or don't) in dealing with the betrayal.
> 
> For instance, do you find this article to be true? I don't have the most trust in this particular magazine, but it raises some interesting points:
> 
> ...



I don’t really agree or disagree with the article... I think a lot of women do want to monkey branch to an upgraded husband and cheat to get it. I know of several guys who cheat just because they have a low regard for women and relationships and think it’s their right to do so. But there is also several guys that cheated I know of, including my H that did it for the emotional intimacy and the thrill of the new relationship and “love” with the sex just being a part of the excitement and butterflies. But had no desire to leave their wives either. I don’t even trust this either because I’m pretty sure my H would have left me if he was having an affair with a hot, single woman with no husband and kids. His AP was none of those things... just completely obsessed and infatuated with having him, which he really, really enjoyed.

So I guess I think... who knows. I guess they all just cheat for whatever reason they feel like.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> Are there statistics about this? What percent in a marriage will cheat sometime during? 1/2, 3/4, 9/10 what?
> 
> Stats I read were that 1/2 marriages ended in divorce, but only 1/5 of divorces were due to infidelity. That is like 1/10 of marriages or 5% of people married. I know this cant be true. Granted, most arent going to report on a survey that they cheated.


Until we can hide cameras on every person 24/7 for life, we will never know. 

I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of what really goes on out there.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Well like I said I have read this stuff for 5 years now, trying to understand this. I would say this, there are definite red flags to look for, types of behaviors. Types of people. Also past sexual trauma and mental illness are big red flags, I would be weary if they haven't had treatment. So I think it's like the classic story of the judge's answer about porn (I'm paraphrasing) - "I am not sure I can describe it but I know it when I see it". One needs to do a lot of reading of these stories but you really do see a pattern. Understanding this actually put my mind at ease about this because it wasn't like someone could completely go off the rails like it seemed to me at the time.
> 
> That is a very scary thought. One day faithful the next off the rails but I think that is so rare as to not even be worthy of discussion. Very often those stories are really about a spouse who for years has chosen to see their unfaithful spouse very idealistically often to fit their world view, or to avoid confrontation. It becomes quite clear the the affair partner understands the cheating spouse's nature much clearer and the two are actually much alike. The affair partner understands the cheating partner much better then the faithful spouse. Very often there are years of boundary pushing and general selfish behavior that is purposely ignored.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with all of this. I saw many red flag behaviors yet I didn’t have the wherewithal to understand they would lead to cheating.

I also didn’t understand that there were men that would cheat in the manner I got cheated on. Probably because of articles like the one mentioned by OP. I figured if the sex is frequent, if I’m trying hard, going out of my way to improve the marriage, despite what he was doing I was safe from being cheated on. I really believed that.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I don’t really agree or disagree with the article... I think a lot of women do want to monkey branch to an upgraded husband and cheat to get it. I know of several guys who cheat just because they have a low regard for women and relationships and think it’s their right to do so. But there is also several guys that cheated I know of, including my H that did it for the emotional intimacy and the thrill of the new relationship and “love” with the sex just being a part of the excitement and butterflies. But had no desire to leave their wives either. I don’t even trust this either because I’m pretty sure my H would have left me if he was having an affair with a hot, single woman with no husband and kids. His AP was none of those things... just completely obsessed and infatuated with having him, which he really, really enjoyed.
> 
> So I guess I think... who knows. I guess they all just cheat for whatever reason they feel like.


There seems to be some truth that men have a harder time getting past the sexual betrayal than women, however, that doesn't explain why women being cheated on by husbands with a sex addiction find that so devastating. I think both men and women cheat for ego kibbles, which sounds like a big part of the reason your husband did so. It's something missing in them, not their spouse, which is why it greatly frustrates me when people assume that the wayward wasn't getting their needs met within the marriage. (Sorry, whole other rant.)

I don't think infidelity is harder for betrayed women or men to deal with, for the record. I do wonder if they internalize the damage differently.

It's all a *@#% sandwich, as they say. I'm sorry your husband served you one. No one deserves that.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> There seems to be some truth that men have a harder time getting past the sexual betrayal than women, however, that doesn't explain why women being cheated on by husbands with a sex addiction find that so devastating. I think both men and women cheat for ego kibbles, which sounds like a big part of the reason your husband did so. It's something missing in them, not their spouse, which frustrates me when people assume that the wayward wasn't getting their needs met within the marriage. (Sorry, whole other rant.)
> 
> I don't think infidelity is harder for betrayed women or men to deal with, for the record. I do wonder if they internalize the damage differently.
> 
> It's all a *@#% sandwich, as they say. I'm sorry your husband served you one. No one deserves that.


I can’t actually tell you which one is more offensive to me, that he told the AP he loved her and treated her better than me and his kids, or that he was physically inside of his AP body. One is crushingly devastating, the other is physically repulsive and they both hurt like a beotch.

Thank you so much for you condolences, but I am glad that I know the truth and was forced to face it. A bigger **** sandwich would have been for me to stay in this marriage where he didn’t ever cross the line but still treated me like I don’t matter. I can tell you I was a really good wife to him and gave him so much trust and love. I didn’t deserve much of his behavior BEFORE the cheating ever happened and I am glad that I can see that now. Clear as day. Anyway this isn't about me I just get on tangents. Apologies. 🙂


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> I have to agree with all of this. I saw many red flag behaviors yet I didn’t have the wherewithal to understand they would lead to cheating.
> 
> I also didn’t understand that there were men that would cheat in the manner I got cheated on. Probably because of articles like the one mentioned by OP. I figured if the sex is frequent, if I’m trying hard, going out of my way to improve the marriage, despite what he was doing I was safe from being cheated on. I really believed that.


I believed it as well. Sex was frequent with vigor. House was clean, kids were well taken care of and I contributed financially. I thought I was immune.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> My original question wasn't whether men or women cheat more or which gender is morally superior. I'm more asking what the differences are in how men and women perceive infidelity, and how they differ (or don't) in dealing with the betrayal.


Rollo Tomassi has an interesting perspective on this that may apply to what you are asking. 

He states men an women each have a little different existential fear regarding sexuality and in essence infidelity. 

Men's existential threat is being cuckolded to where he is raising another's man's progeny and all of his time and energies and resources are going into a child(s) that he did not father. That is a man's greatest fear and one that will trigger one of his most primitive responses. 

Women's most existential fear is of being duped into thinking she is mating with a strong and committed man that is devoted to her and her offspring and will feed and protect them through the drought and through the winters and famines etc, but then finding out he is actually weak and ineffectual or is not committed and leaves her and the offspring alone to die in the winter or starve in the famine or be killed by a marauding rival tribe. 

So lets apply this to differentiating infidelity to the genders. 

A man's existential threat is being cuckolded and using his resources to raise another man's offspring. For the millions of years of human evolution up to the DNA testing in the last few decades, men really had no assurances of their offspring other than mate guarding their mate to the point where it was highly unlikely she was impregnated by another - but even then there wasn't 100% assurance as she only needed a few minutes out of his site to get pregnant. 

There for to a man, he is going to essentially have NO tolerance for adultery and his reaction will always be profoundly negative and very low chance of fully repairing the damage to his connection to her. Marriages that have had female infidelity are statistically much lower chance of long term recovery and functionality than male infidelity. 

With male infidelity, the woman's existential threat is going to be abandonment and or loss of his resources and loss of his support which in ancestral times could mean death of the child or even her own death. There's relevance in modern times if the OW does get knocked up, he will be held accountable for child support which will thusly reduce amount of resources to the BW and her offspring even if the WH remains in the marriage. 

The reason more women remain with WHs than men remain with WWs is if the BH can somehow convince that he will remain committed to her and that his resources will continue to be given to her - she may offer a little grace....... 

And if the man is financially secure enough that she will continue to receive adequate provisioning, she may remain in the marriage even if he continues to get with the OW and even if he impregnates the OW. 

Women will often share a man that has enough resources to support and provision her and her offspring well. If given two choices, women will often choose to share a rich and powerful man with other women rather than have her own weak and poor one. 

About the only cultures where men will knowingly share a woman is in very harsh climates such as Himalayas and the arctic and very barren desert areas where it historically took a number of men to provide enough food and shelter for offspring to survive. As they were all banging her, there was a chance that any of them could have been the father and so they all worked together to provide for the offspring. 

That was in the past, with mail order DNA testing now, I doubt if they will be quite so cooperative. 

So the reason men and women have differing responses to infidelity is they each have different existential threats and infidelity impacts then differently on a primal, existential level.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> I believed it as well. Sex was frequent with vigor. House was clean, kids were well taken care of and I contributed financially. I thought I was immune.


Right... so it really, really throws your whole understanding of the world into disarray. I have thought so many times... what other mental construct have I got completely wrong???


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I can tell you I was a really good wife to him and gave him so much trust and love. I didn’t deserve much of his behavior BEFORE the cheating ever happened and I am glad that I can see that now. Clear as day. Anyway this isn't about me I just get on tangents. Apologies. 🙂


I believe that and I'm glad you see it. Like I said, that myth that it was something lacking in the marriage or the spouse which caused the cheater to cheat is a very damaging one. It makes me want to throat punch someone when I hear it touted. It's a form of gaslighting, in my opinion, and can cause a lot of suffering for the betrayed on top of the infidelity itself.

Ironically, in their quests to make themselves happy, waywards often end up destroying their own lives. And they have to live with that.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That was in the past, with mail order DNA testing now, I doubt if they will be quite so cooperative


Yep. Ancestral DNA testing has already blown things up for families. I've read several stories. And I think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg on that.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

QuietRiot said:


> Right... so it really, really throws your whole understanding of the world into disarray. I have thought so many times... what other mental construct have I got completely wrong???


Exactly! It’s painful knowing that I thought I was doing everything right and he cheated anyway.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I believe that and I'm glad you see it. Like I said, that myth that it was something lacking in the marriage or the spouse which caused the cheater to cheat is a very damaging one. It makes me want to throat punch someone when I hear it touted. It's a form of gaslighting, in my opinion, and can cause a lot of suffering for the betrayed on top of the infidelity itself.
> 
> Though my circumstances would be considered "infidelity light" by many--including myself--I realized how I'd been blamed and taken for granted after DD. I was really angry at myself initially, because I realized I was starting to follow in my mother's footsteps (who was cheated on repeatedly, and whom I'd vowed to never become).
> 
> Ironically, in their quests to make themselves happy, waywards often end up destroying their own lives. And they have to live with that.


Right, because it’s not real happiness.... fleeting and leaves them worse off than the reasons they give themselves for doing it. It’s sad that they are willing to burn their whole world down and everyone else’s to get some temporary high.

Is your story on another thread? I’ll have to take a look.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

I think there is a difference in how society looks at cheating. If the man cheats the woman is told that he's a loser and she deserves much better, she's perfect just the way she is. I've seen this "advice" given to a woman who weighed 3 bills.

If the woman cheats a side eye is thrown at the guy. What was he not doing? Couldn't he keep his woman happy? Etc.... The (much better) advice for men is pick yourself up, get to the gym, get to work, make yourself better, get back on track.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> I think there is a difference in how society looks at cheating. If the man cheats the woman is told that he's a loser and she deserves much better, she's perfect just the way she is. I've seen this "advice" given to a woman who weighed 3 bills.
> 
> If the woman cheats a side eye is thrown at the guy. What was he not doing? Couldn't he keep his woman happy? Etc.... The (much better) advice for men is pick yourself up, get to the gym, get to work, make yourself better, get back on track.


While I have seen what you have said I have also seen women who have been cheated on questioned about their weight, as you indicated, their veracity in bed etc. I had a poster here mock me early on what had I not done that my husband looked else where. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> Is your story on another thread? I’ll have to take a look.


No, I haven't posted about it. It was a long time ago, and I'm mostly healed, so I don't feel the need. I may do so in the Members Only section, at some point.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Yeah I saw your intro thread and someone started complaining about their spouse throwing garbage on the countertops. That’s a head scratcher.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> I had a poster here mock me early on what had I not done that my husband looked else where. 🤷🏼‍♀️


Wow. Just...wow. That's awful. And stupid. No spouse is perfect, but even if flaws in the betrayed did justify cheating, at what point would cheating be justified? Where would the line be drawn?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Al_Bundy said:


> . The (much better) advice for men is pick yourself up, get to the gym, get to work, make yourself better, get back on track.


Even with that, the implication is that he was inadequate. 

And the implication that he was inadequate implies that her cheating/leaving was justified.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Twodecades said:


> Wow. Just...wow. That's awful. And stupid. No spouse is perfect, but even if flaws in the betrayed did justify cheating, at what point would cheating be justified? Where would the line be drawn?


It hurt. No lie. I’m not perfect by any means but I was a good wife, friend and lover. He was just selfish, got old and wanted some strange. It really is a simple as that.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Torninhalf said:


> It hurt. No lie. I’m not perfect by any means but I was a good wife, friend and lover. He was just selfish, got old and wanted some strange. It really is a simple as that.


I think sometimes people feel that if they can find a reason the betrayed caused it, they can rationalize that it can't happen to them. It gives them a false sense of security.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Twodecades said:


> I think sometimes people feel that if they can find a reason the betrayed caused it, they can rationalize that it can't happen to them. It gives them a false sense of security.


I think on a board like this everyone is hurt. Hurt people hurt people. I’ve done it. Human nature.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Torninhalf said:


> I think on a board like this everyone is hurt. Hurt people hurt people. I’ve done it. Human nature.


Also, remember that when people first join, we can't always tell what the WHOLE story is...I don't think ANYONE would suggest that to you now, knowing YOU and your story. Some posters mislead and withhold information at first, so some posters are suspicious and a little too harsh.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> Also, remember that when people first join, we can't always tell what the WHOLE story is...I don't think ANYONE would suggest that to you now, knowing YOU and your story. Some posters mislead and withhold information at first, so some posters are suspicious and a little too harsh.


I can take a jab or two. It’s all good. I hope people here see that I’m every bit as human as they are. We all bleed red.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Torninhalf said:


> It hurt. No lie. I’m not perfect by any means but I was a good wife, friend and lover. He was just selfish, got old and wanted some strange. It really is a simple as that.


I think it's probably true that cheaters aren't getting what they need at home.

The key is whether what they need is reasonable to ask of a spouse.

Your ex and mine were getting everything from us that is reasonable to ask....what they needed that wasn't reasonable to ask were side pieces to add excitement and to stroke their pathetic egos.

That isn't part of the marital contract.

I view things a little differently when a spouse actually doesn't provide what is reasonable to ask...ie keeps themselves in good condition/pays attention to spouse/contributes to household/ has sex with spouse. Of course one's decision to cheat is never justified, but in evaluating the entire story those two situations are very different. We've seen plenty of ****ty spouses be sanctified here because the spouse cheated. 

I think I was a good wife, but my ex couldn't deal with getting older and was jealous of me. He needed his ex ***** for his ego to feel better....in his mind he had two younger women. He needed it but it wasn't part of our contract.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> I think sometimes people feel that if they can find a reason the betrayed caused it, they can rationalize that it can't happen to them. It gives them a false sense of security.


Absolutely 

When people find out my father died from lung cancer the first thing they ask is whether he smoked. The answer is yes he did and it likely is what caused his cancer.

It doesn't bother me because I know the idea that he might have been a non smoker is terrifying because then you can't control anything. But I also know that's why they're asking.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think it's probably true that cheaters aren't getting what they need at home.
> 
> The key is whether what they need is reasonable to ask of a spouse.
> 
> ...


Some men get fast cars during a midlife crisis. Mine choose a fast woman. It kills me because our sex life was what it always was. 3 to 4 times a week. I knew his love language was sex and I gave it to him. A younger “badge bunny” peaked his interest and he was off to the races.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> I view things a little differently when a spouse actually doesn't provide what is reasonable to ask...ie keeps themselves in good condition/pays attention to spouse/contributes to household/ has sex with spouse. Of course one's decision to cheat is never justified, but in evaluating the entire story those two situations are very different. We've seen plenty of ****ty spouses be sanctified here because the spouse cheated.


That is a very interesting point. I don't think being cheated on sanctifies a spouse, because as I said, no spouse is perfect. And I can agree that being a crappy spouse can make it more tempting for a spouse to cheat. We're most vulnerable to making bad choices when we're hurt. However, there is no doubt that most betrayed spouses are also hurt (pre-infidelity), yet resist the temptation to cheat. They don't allow themselves to use it as justification. It's easier to cheat than to draw a line in the sand and separate. Most waywards aren't looking to do the work in the relationship, draw the right boundaries, and consider self-reflection.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> That is a very interesting point. I don't think being cheated on sanctifies a spouse, because as I said, no spouse is perfect. And I can agree that being a crappy spouse can make it more tempting for a spouse to cheat. We're most vulnerable to making bad choices when we're hurt. However, there is no doubt that most betrayed spouses are also hurt (pre-infidelity), yet resist the temptation to cheat. They don't allow themselves to use it as justification. It's easier to cheat than to draw a line in the sand and separate. Most waywards aren't looking to do the work in the relationship, draw the right boundaries, and consider self-reflection.



I agree. Even when one is a crappy spouse the fact that their partner deals with difficulty by cheating is a separate issue. People who deal with difficulties in unproductive ways like cheating and violence are poor partner material.

My ex actually had the audacity to ask if I was cheating on him.....I'd told him we were divorcing and thus refused to tell him where I was going. He had his head buried in the sand and was pretending that I'd forget about it.

Assuming it would have even been considered cheating at that point the answer was no, I wasn't seeing anyone. But he projected his ****ty character onto me, and by all accounts I would have had a much easier time. Just the fact that I was female made that true, but I was also younger and in really good shape. 

There are productive and unproductive ways to deal with difficulties.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> Even when one is a crappy spouse the fact that their partner deals with difficulty by cheating is a separate issue.


^^This. Other issues a marriage may have had are valid, however, infidelity has to be looked at separately, imo. There's a tendency to look at it all mixed together. Infidelity often strikes a mortal wound, however, so that trying to work out the other issues becomes a moot point.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> .... keeps themselves in good condition/pays attention to spouse/contributes to household/ has sex with spouse.


There is more than one thread on TAM where the wayward posting acknowledges that the betrayed punched nearly all of the right buttons, were #1 in nearly every respect. But because of not checking ALL of the boxes they were still cheated on. Which makes me think if a person has it in their brain that they are entitled to have everything they want always, they are going to go outside the marriage to get whatever they think their spouse isn't providing and can always justify it to themselves and others.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> ^^This. Other issues a marriage may have had are valid, however, infidelity has to be looked at separately, imo. There's a tendency to look at it all mixed together. Infidelity often strikes a mortal wound, however, so that trying to work out the other issues becomes a moot point.


This is what I told marriage counselors that wanted to start talking about the marriage! I said, he dropped a ****ing atom bomb on our lives and you want to dig through the vaporized debris to find out what structural damage used to be there? Does that make any sense?? I seriously thought I was going insane. I thought... is it just me that understands that this is not about the marriage? Am I the weirdo that thinks his affair is THE issue and not the “symptom”? Because yes, I heard that. “An affair is a symptom of a bad marriage.” HA! That’s some prime grade ******** that makes a cheater sigh in relief that they are winning.


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## Tested_by_stress (Apr 1, 2021)

As someone who has worked in the construction industry for 25 plus years, I've seen a lot and travelled a lot. There is no doubt in my mind that married women cheat as much as married men. I've been propositioned by married women more times than I can count. A lawyer aquaintance of mine says the percentage of divorces he's handled that were the result of the wife straying has grown significantly since Facebook and other social media platforms came on the scene. He didn't specify wether he meant PA's, EA's or both.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Even with that, the implication is that he was inadequate.
> 
> And the implication that he was inadequate implies that her cheating/leaving was justified.


I can see that but at the same time you can also look at from the POV of I can do better doesn't mean that you weren't doing good before. Looking back at the relationship like an old PR in the gym and having the attitude that it's time to turn that old PR into dust and not look back.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women, though that gap seems to have closed in the most recent generation. If you read discussion boards, you'll find just as many betrayed men posting about D Day as women.
> 
> There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


This is dark but more men kill themselves. In general and do to infidelity.

I'm not attempting to make light of anyone's pain and I know women suffer as much.

I've personally known a few men who ended themselves over it and I don't know one woman who has and statistics back my observations.

I also believe men might succeed at other violent reactions more. I think women get violent too but don't cause as much damage in general.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. I'm not convinced men cheat more than women and I don't believe they have cheated more throughout history either.

We are all prone to fail fidelity regardless of sex.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> This is dark but more men kill themselves. In general and do to infidelity.
> 
> I'm not attempting to make light of anyone's pain and I know women suffer as much.
> 
> ...


Do you mean the cheating husbands or the betrayed husbands kill themselves more? Or both? I think you mean the betrayed but I wonder about the wayward.... I would think there is a higher rate of suicide there too. It would make sense.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Do you mean the cheating husbands or the betrayed husbands kill themselves more? Or both? I think you mean the betrayed but I wonder about the wayward.... I would think there is a higher rate of suicide there too. It would make sense.


Betrayed husbands are who I was referring to but I'm pretty sure I've heard of a wayward husband ending himself as well.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Twodecades said:


> No, I haven't posted about it. It was a long time ago, and I'm mostly healed, so I don't feel the need. I may do so in the Members Only section, at some point.


It might be helpful to hear your story and how you were able to heal from it.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Sfort said:


> It might be helpful to hear your story and how you were able to heal from it.


Perhaps. It's more about my parents and their story. I actually feel like I learned a lot more about infidelity from having a parent who was a serial cheater and from walking alongside friends who have been through it, male and female. And from research.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> This is dark but more men kill themselves. In general and do to infidelity.
> 
> I'm not attempting to make light of anyone's pain and I know women suffer as much.
> 
> ...


I tend to suspect this, as well, and it's very sad. I also suspect that men are more likely to turn to alcohol to cope. I think they contemplate suicide more than betrayed women, maybe because they are more likely not to have their identity as strongly based in being a father as a woman is a mother? That's not to say they don't value that role, but it competes with providing/protecting, which infidelity likely makes them question. Women may wish they could die, but a lot of the time what pulls them back is, "The kids need me to be there for them."

Men seem to also want to react problems primarily with action ("what do I _do_?"), whereas women tend to want to try to understand and verbalize. So it makes sense that their reflex is to take some sort of action, whereas women's first thought is "why did this happen?" 

I realize I making some pretty big generalizations. I also think that eventually, both genders feel a lot of the same things.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I tend to suspect this, as well, and it's very sad. I also suspect that men are more likely to turn to alcohol to cope. I think they contemplate suicide more than betrayed women, maybe because they are more likely not to have their identity as strongly based in being a father as a woman is a mother? That's not to say they don't value that role, but it competes with providing/protecting, which infidelity likely makes them question. Women may wish they could die, but a lot of the time what pulls them back is, "The kids need me to be there for them."
> 
> Men seem to also want to react problems primarily with action ("what do I _do_?"), whereas women tend to want to try to understand and verbalize. So it makes sense that their reflex is to take some sort of action, whereas women's first thought is "why did this happen?"
> 
> I realize I making some pretty big generalizations. I also think that eventually, both genders feel a lot of the same things.


I would suspect that men, especially the previous generations, were expected to have stoicism and strength by simply not emoting. I think this is toxically engrained in a lot of men. I find its rare to know a man who is ok with crying. I still hear fathers saying to their sons “you’re crying like a little girl”.

I think that it’s getting better in some ways but many ways is still the same. Males aren’t supposed to express strong “feminine” emotion, so when they do let emotions out, it’s usually anger. Or perhaps in extreme case, suicide.

Another factor is support systems. Just thinking of how men are supported as opposed to women by their friends and family, there is a marked difference. Women will listen and work out every last detail of why they feel the way they do and encourage this kind of open dialogue about hurt and betrayal and encourage emotions, crying, being weak in the hard moments. Other men in the family and friend circle will try to support and care for the woman who they see as needing protection physical support through hugs and touch. 

I just don’t see this being the same in the case of men. Perhaps there is men who do get this kind of support, but I don’t know. I only see a lot of angry and frustrated men, who are actually extremely hurt.

Anyways, that’s my 8 cents.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I would suspect that men, especially the previous generations, were expected to have stoicism and strength by simply not emoting. I think this is toxically engrained in a lot of men. I find its rare to know a man who is ok with crying. I still hear fathers saying to their sons “you’re crying like a little girl”.
> 
> I think that it’s getting better in some ways but many ways is still the same. Males aren’t supposed to express strong “feminine” emotion, so when they do let emotions out, it’s usually anger. Or perhaps in extreme case, suicide.
> 
> ...


I agree. I've seen a lot of men get responses/advice from other guys like, "Have you beat the $#*% out of him (OM) yet?," or "Best to move on," or "We need to get you drunk," and "What you need to get over this is to get laid." Men probably do need more action-oriented coping mechanisms, but healthier ones, and also a place to be able to be to vent their rage and grief. I'm not sure what exactly that looks like, though. There is a danger of trying to make them react or deal with things like women, and I do think there tend to be innate differences that need to be respected.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I agree. I've seen a lot of men get responses/advice from other guys like, "Have you beat the $#*% out of him (OM) yet?," or "Best to move on," or "We need to get you drunk," and "what you need to get over this is to get laid." Men probably do need more action-oriented coping mechanisms, but healthier ones, and also a place to be able to be to vent their rage and grief. I'm not sure what exactly that looks like, though. There is a danger of trying to make them react or deal with things like women, and I do think there tends to be innate differences that need to be respected.


I think just being able to normalize having emotions and getting to a place where a man can be comfortable doing so. Having friends and family that can allow that with safety. Most I would say aren’t comfortable with that.

For example, I have an old friend who looks like a meat head body builder, but he and his brother and their parents are the most emotionally open family I’ve ever met. When he was really sad he’d cry, and didn’t care who saw it. When someone else was hurting, he’d wrap them in a hug. When other of our friends were going through breakups or divorcing, he’d ask how they were feeling, put his hand on their back, listen and ask questions, encourage feeling sad and even crying if they needed to. He allowed other guys to be vulnerable in a place of safety, and they would be! I guess when I think of males being able to emote, I think of him.

I guess it helps to look like you crush rocks with your fists so nobody even thinks to question your man card when you cry. But who knows. 😂


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Sometimes men need to destroy something or beat the **** out of someone.

Denying that drive does significant damage as well.

I know it's not civilized but it's true nonetheless.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Sometimes men need to destroy something or beat the **** out of someone.
> 
> Denying that drive does significant damage as well.
> 
> I know it's not civilized but it's true nonetheless.


Not saying that doesn’t need to happen too. But men have emotions. Pretending they don’t because it’s “weak” does them no favors.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Not saying that doesn’t need to happen too. But men have emotions. Pretending they don’t because it’s “weak” does them no favors.


I'm in agreement but we don't always need a pow wow and a discussion.

A lot of the time, we need to remedy the situation to some extent.

My wife wants to talk and be understood and that helps her work through things.

Sometimes it is what I need as well but I often require something be done to satisfy and help me work through things.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Twodecades said:


> I think they contemplate suicide more than betrayed women, maybe because they are more likely not to have their identity as strongly based in being a father as a woman is a mother? That's not to say they don't value that role, but it competes with providing/protecting, which infidelity likely makes them question. Women may wish they could die, but a lot of the time what pulls them back is, "The kids need me to be there for them."
> .


I'm not meaning to get political but we need to keep in mind that many of the courts and divorce laws are slanted against fathers. 

It's only the last 10 years or so that shared custody was even a thing. Historically men were required to continue to support and pay for the ex wife and kids but could only "visit" maybe every other weekend and maybe an evening every couple weeks and then a couple weeks out of the summer. 

Even that was mocked socially and fathers were maligned for being, quote, "Disney Fathers."

And even today, a mother pretty much has to have multiple drug convictions, flunk multiple court-ordered drug tests or be convicted of serious child abuse before a father is considered for primary custody. 

Your point about men not identifying as being a father as strongly as a woman identifying as a mother needs to be viewed with the backdrop that often in divorce men are stripped of their status as being fathers.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I'm in agreement but we don't always need a pow wow and a discussion.
> 
> A lot of the time, we need to remedy the situation to some extent.
> 
> ...


Right, but in the context of being cheated on and having your world dismantled... breaking things and emotional safety are needed I think?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Right, but in the context of being cheated on and having your world dismantled... breaking things and emotional safety are needed I think?


I lost a really good friend to this a long time ago. It was before cell phones and I had a call from him two weeks before he ended himself.

If I had been near him, I would have taken him out drinking, done some other rough things and talked bull **** about roughing the guy up that was sowing his fields. We might have went shooting or even hit the ring for a few rounds. (He was an ex boxer and I've been a martial artist since grade school). We might have even gone a little more crazy and picked him up a party girl or vandalized the AP's car or any number of things.

We might have even confronted the guy to see if he was feeling froggy.

Regardless, we would have done those things together and it would have helped him work through it.

He had no one but a bunch of morons in church telling him it must be his fault that his wife was cheating and recommending "Dr.". Harley's cuckold plan to keep getting abused to win his worthless wife back.

If I had been there to do some other stuff, odds are, he would still be around.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I lost a really good friend to this a long time ago. It was before cell phones and I had a call from him two weeks before he ended himself.
> 
> If I had been near him, I would have taken him out drinking, done some other rough things and talked bull **** about roughing the guy up that was sowing his fields. We might have went shooting or even hit the ring for a few rounds. (He was an ex boxer and I've been a martial artist since grade school). We might have even gone a little more crazy and picked him up a party girl or vandalized the AP's car or any number of things.
> 
> ...


I can’t really agree that you’d have prevented what he did, this is something else I find males do a lot, take responsibility for the death of loved ones, interestingly even when it’s cancer.
But there is value in knowing you have true friends when **** gets rough. That is truth. I’m sure he knew you were a good friend to him. Sorry for your loss.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Historically men were required to continue to support and pay for the ex wife and kids but could only "visit" maybe every other weekend and maybe an evening every couple weeks and then a couple weeks out of the summer.


It was literally called "visitation" back in the day.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

ConanHub said:


> I lost a really good friend to this a long time ago. It was before cell phones and I had a call from him two weeks before he ended himself.
> 
> If I had been near him, I would have taken him out drinking, done some other rough things and talked bull **** about roughing the guy up that was sowing his fields. We might have went shooting or even hit the ring for a few rounds. (He was an ex boxer and I've been a martial artist since grade school). We might have even gone a little more crazy and picked him up a party girl or vandalized the AP's car or any number of things.
> 
> ...


That's tragic. Truly. I'm very sorry. And what his church tried to get him to do was toxic.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I had the opportunity to intervene like I wanted to with other friends later.

It made a difference. They are still around and one of them was a suicide waiting to happen.

We were able to drink a lot of beer and bull **** over cell phones.

The other friend was living in the same town and we hung out and did everything together for probably a month or two. 

We did talk but it involved more planning about actions to take and though feelings were discussed, they were the smallest portion of any conversation.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> It was literally called "visitation" back in the day.


It was called this up until about 8 years ago in my state. “Parental visitation”


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I had the opportunity to intervene like I wanted to with other friends later.
> 
> It made a difference. They are still around and one of them was a suicide waiting to happen.
> 
> ...


So what is it then? Why do so many BH resort to suicide?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> It was called this up until about 8 years ago in my state. “Parental visitation”


Yep, the men were no longer fathers in the eyes of the law. They were visitors to their children.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

+1 to take the dude out drinking, ideally leave him face down in the gutter and maybe decorate the body with newspaper or sharpies and take embarrassing photos of it to use for blackmail. All my friends have such photos in reserve to use for defensive purposes.

I like Conan’s idea of doing some rounds in the ring. When I am having a tough time I will go on long distance runs and or take it out in the gym. The danger here is if you start getting your face caved in my natural reaction is to go ham and then people start getting injured.

Usually when I have heard of friends who experienced a WS they choke it down and disappear from work for a while. Very rarely will someone open up and then it’s at a bar.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> So what is it then? Why do so many BH resort to suicide?


Gotta take Mrs. C out and feed her. I'll contemplate some of my perspective for posting later


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I disagree pretty strongly with the drinking above. Alcohol is actually a very poor coping mechanism and can end up causing a lot more problems and issues emotionally, psychologically, physically and legally. 

Getting out with the Bro's and doing active, manly things like boxing/MA, working out, shooting, golf, hunting, fishing, etc etc YES. 

Now I am not saying that a beer or two or drink or two is going to hurt anyone. But drinking for the purpose of treating an emotional trauma is a recipe for disaster. The perception is that alcohol can help deaden the emotional pain, but the truth is it can often intensify it. 

And then when you add in the fact it can impair rational thinking and impulse control, people are actual at a HIGHER risk of self harm/suicide or just doing something plain dumb that will either get themselves or hurt or even killed or in jail. 

If a couple drunk guys get a wild idea to show up at someone's house to work him over and they end up getting two to the chest and one to the head - the OM will never even see the inside of a courtroom. It will be a completely justified homocide. 
It's one thing to have a drink or two and party it up and blow off steam. It's another thing when full grown adult men get drunk and stupid.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

A lot if not the majority of adult male suicides have alcohol/drugs in their systems at the time of death and have histories of chemical abuse. It's often an actual contributing factor and increases the risk of harm, not decreasing it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think what it does is crack the shell that gets people to actually say what the problem is. As described above you don’t want to show weakness so when your inhibitions are lowered or erased maybe you can admit why you haven’t been to work in a month.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> I think what it does is crack the shell that gets people to actually say what the problem is. As described above you don’t want to show weakness so when your inhibitions are lowered or erased maybe you can admit why you haven’t been to work in a month.


It worked for my friends and I.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

A lot of people say that men need to be more vulnerable, men need to cry more and reach out for support, but there is a very good reason men tell each other to get over things and man up. It's because NO ONE CARES. As men, most of us are aware of this fact, and that's precisely why men don't reach out as much and show how vulnerable they can be.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> A lot of people say that men need to be more vulnerable, men need to cry more and reach out for support, but there is a very good reason men tell each other to get over things and man up. It's because NO ONE CARES. As men, most of us are aware of this fact, and that's precisely why men don't reach out as much and show how vulnerable they can be.


Ok well at the risk of sounding like a weepy vag...That’s not how I want to raise my son. I want him to be the guy that can do all these guy things, be assertive and sure of his place in the world, not take crap from women or let them brow beat him, but also be able to say, I’m hurting and have a good support system in place, and be able to reach out for help.

Is this unreasonable? I mean honestly. I want to raise my son right, and I think there has to be a balance. But how does one do that? Obviously having a good male role model is important, however I screwed that up and gave him a dad that is the epitome of angry, toxic masculinity, selfish but perpetually unhappy. Lord help me. Im devoid of good male role models in my life period. 
I guess this is a t/j about parenting, but I think it relates directly to how men and women handle catastrophic issues of the heart. And I don’t think most anyone in the world is going to leave without at least one.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

@QuietRiot when your son is a kid, he might have a good support system in you and some other family but what about when he grows up? Honest question but do you think women find men attractive when they are all weepy about their problems, or are they attracted to men who suck it up and deal with things with more stoicism? If he shows he is hurting to everyone, what he is really communicating is that he is weak. Other men don't really respect weak men and women don't want anything to do with them either. Society prepares men for reality when we tell young men not to be emotional or show weakness. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it isn't, but that's been my experience and observation.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Enigma32 said:


> @QuietRiot when your son is a kid, he might have a good support system in you and some other family but what about when he grows up? Honest question but do you think women find men attractive when they are all weepy about their problems, or are they attracted to men who suck it up and deal with things with more stoicism? If he shows he is hurting to everyone, what he is really communicating is that he is weak. Other men don't really respect weak men and women don't want anything to do with them either. Society prepares men for reality when we tell young men not to be emotional or show weakness. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it isn't, but that's been my experience and observation.


Men who don’t show weakness kill themselves as well. What are the statistics of veterans killing themselves? There has to be a balance.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't mind men who show some feelings as long as they remain functional adults.

I'll hug you and tell you it will be ok, but I'm not going to adult for both of us.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I’m with @Enigma32 but I do feel strongly sometimes and in those times I go on a run out in the middle of nowhere with no people around because then you’re not showing the hurt to other people.

I honestly don’t think I have ever seen my father cry. I have seen him in extreme pain where I literally had to carry him and no tears. I have seen him get terrible news and nothing. As a kid I was afraid of ever showing him pain or weakness.

I broke my collar bone when I was in maybe third grade playing football and I just swallowed it and never said anything. He grabbed my arm one day and I jumped back and yelled. Went to the doctor then and it was busted and had already healed wrong for a few weeks and now it is permanently screwed up.

So maybe there is room for some balance.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Torninhalf said:


> Men who don’t show weakness kill themselves as well. What are the statistics of veterans killing themselves? There has to be a balance.


I am guessing that when people start to actually care when men share their problems and not just say we should do it, then more men will give it a try. As it stands right now, men are on our own and we know it.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> @QuietRiot when your son is a kid, he might have a good support system in you and some other family but what about when he grows up? Honest question but do you think women find men attractive when they are all weepy about their problems, or are they attracted to men who suck it up and deal with things with more stoicism? If he shows he is hurting to everyone, what he is really communicating is that he is weak. Other men don't really respect weak men and women don't want anything to do with them either. Society prepares men for reality when we tell young men not to be emotional or show weakness. Maybe that's a bad thing, maybe it isn't, but that's been my experience and observation.


You have valid points, I just don’t know where along the line we equate showing or talking about emotions equivalent to weakness? With trusted groups. I think there is a balance. I don’t know where the line is. I see my H who refuses to show weakness and ever have vulnerability and it’s destroyed us all. There is a fragility that comes with the ego of hyper masculinity.

I’m not even arguing a point, I just don’t know or understand where the issues actually lie within the sexes. I don’t relate to most of the women people here preach about, so I can’t even find a commonality there.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I want to raise my son right, and I think there has to be a balance. But how does one do that? Obviously having a good male role model is important, however I screwed that up and gave him a dad that is the epitome of angry, toxic masculinity, selfish but perpetually unhappy.


I am sorry, QuietRiot. (By the way, I meant to tell you, your username rocks.) Perhaps you can stress any parts of your husband's masculinity or personality/character that are positive? As they grow older, they may see that people aren't black and white, and you appreciated the positive parts of their father...but you couldn't embrace the fatal flaws. I think that means something. Coaches and teachers can be good role models, too. I had some in high school that I learned a lot from, things my parents lacked. I don't mean to whitewash your concerns. I know it's complicated. 

I had a counselor say once that we tend to either either embrace and copy our parents' scripts (consciously or subconsciously) or flip them. I don't know that it's quite so simple. But I believe there must be things you can do to help your boys flip the negative parts of the script.



QuietRiot said:


> I don’t relate to most of the women people here preach about, so I can’t even find a commonality there.


Can you explain or give examples of what you mean?


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Enigma32 said:


> I am guessing that when people start to actually care when men share their problems and not just say we should do it, then more men will give it a try.


I think I get what you're saying in your posts. Practically speaking, what would that look like? What could men and women say--or more importantly do--to allow more of a balance?


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I think I get what you're saying in your posts. Practically speaking, what would that look like? What could men and women say--or more importantly do--to allow more of a balance?


For example, you can take almost any female ever, have her post her problems on social media, and she is likely to receive almost overwhelming attention and support for her problems, even if they are made up. I have a friend who's wife cheated on him multiple times, left him, and he was also attacked and hurt by her new BF and my buddy gets 0 support. His ex wife is the one getting support for HER choices. "You have to do what makes you happy, girl!" Meanwhile, she left my buddy to take care of all their kids while she's out banging another dude and if he breaks down and makes an emo post on FB literally no one cares. No one really responds. 

Every time there is any issue in any other community, people band together to raise awareness or try to help. Gender pay gap for example has people trying to encourage women into doing more STEM jobs to level things out. What about the fact that 95% of workplace fatalities are men? Where is the push to get women onto Alaskan fishing boats to die with men? No one cares that men are the ones dying at work. Look at breast cancer awareness vs something like testicular or prostate cancer. Most homeless people are men. Again, no one cares. 

Usually, a guy might have a couple close friends that have his back but that's about it. Like, if one of the guys in my circle of friends is having some problems, the rest of us will usually have a talk without him and do something for the guy to cheer him up without making it obvious we are just trying to do something for him. That tends to be how men handle things in our groups.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> Can you explain or give examples of what you mean?


Like the posts about women on many of the threads here about the nature of women? And how they don’t respect men who are too accommodating. Or they need to man up or they’ll get cheated on by women who don’t respect them. I am not that type of female. I’ve never even met an extremely passive man... So I mean... I don’t even know how that type of woman thinks honestly. I can’t relate. If anything I’m too accommodating, which didn’t work out for me in the end either. But I’m not a man! Lol.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I am sorry, QuietRiot. (By the way, I meant to tell you, your username rocks.) Perhaps you can stress any parts of your husband's masculinity or personality/character that are positive? As they grow older, they may see that people aren't black and white, and you appreciated the positive parts of their father...but you couldn't embrace the fatal flaws. I think that means something. Coaches and teachers can be good role models, too. I had some in high school that I learned a lot from, things my parents lacked. I don't mean to whitewash your concerns. I know it's complicated.
> 
> I had a counselor say once that we tend to either either embrace and copy our parents' scripts (consciously or subconsciously) or flip them. I don't know that it's quite so simple. But I believe there must be things you can do to help your boys flip the negative parts of the script.


These are good points, and I’ll really have to think about this in depth. There are some great things about men that boys should be learning from men, I’m not so self important to believe I have those tools to teach in any way. But I can instill a sense of appreciation for masculinity...

I inadvertently copied my parents in a lot of ways. So your counselor has some validity there. 

You’re very insightful.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women, though that gap seems to have closed in the most recent generation. If you read discussion boards, you'll find just as many betrayed men posting about D Day as women.
> 
> There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


I think men have a harder time moving on, especially when children are involved. I talked to many divorced men with and without kids, some of whom were cheated on (including my bf). He said it was 5 years after his divorce before he started dating. I think if he didn't have children, he would have recovered faster, children change everything. He was heartbroken having his family torn apart, he always wanted a traditional life.

We've discussed how differently we handled the aftermath and how we both dealt with things. He had a much larger support system than I did, he even had good relations with his in-laws, mine and my entire social circle disappeared. So, I don't think that's a male/female issue, it really depends on what kind of person you are and the relationships you have in your life.

@enigma those "you go girl" comments only show the immorality of that woman and her carnival of crows justifying their miserable existence. I wouldn't say they're anything to boast about as a support system. People like that like to be secretly happy about the carnage of other people's lives and enable bad behavior to justify their own actions.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Enigma32 said:


> For example, you can take almost any female ever, have her post her problems on social media, and she is likely to receive almost overwhelming attention and support for her problems, even if they are made up. I have a friend who's wife cheated on him multiple times, left him, and he was also attacked and hurt by her new BF and my buddy gets 0 support. His ex wife is the one getting support for HER choices. "You have to do what makes you happy, girl!" Meanwhile, she left my buddy to take care of all their kids while she's out banging another dude and if he breaks down and makes an emo post on FB literally no one cares. No one really responds.
> 
> Every time there is any issue in any other community, people band together to raise awareness or try to help. Gender pay gap for example has people trying to encourage women into doing more STEM jobs to level things out. What about the fact that 95% of workplace fatalities are men? Where is the push to get women onto Alaskan fishing boats to die with men? No one cares that men are the ones dying at work. Look at breast cancer awareness vs something like testicular or prostate cancer. Most homeless people are men. Again, no one cares.
> 
> Usually, a guy might have a couple close friends that have his back but that's about it. Like, if one of the guys in my circle of friends is having some problems, the rest of us will usually have a talk without him and do something for the guy to cheer him up without making it obvious we are just trying to do something for him. That tends to be how men handle things in our groups.


I can see all these points. There are a lot of women that act like complete idiots and get “You do you girl!!!” Type stuff. I have to say there’s a lot of fake crap going on on social media though. Super fake.

I think there is a real danger to feminizing males, for sure. There is a beauty to the differences in the sexes. But I also can’t equate having emotions and expressing them as feminine. I think it should just be human.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> (By the way, I meant to tell you, your username rocks.)


I agree, it seems like I can almost feel the noise!


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> I think men have a harder time moving on, especially when children are involved. I talked to many divorced men with and without kids, some of whom were cheated on (including my bf). He said it was 5 years after his divorce before he started dating. I think if he didn't have children, he would have recovered faster, children change everything. He was heartbroken having his family torn apart, he always wanted a traditional life.
> 
> We've discussed how differently we handled the aftermath and how we both dealt with things. He had a much larger support system than I did, he even had good relations with his in-laws, mine and my entire social circle disappeared. So, I don't think that's a male/female issue, it really depends on what kind of person you are and the relationships you have in your life.
> 
> @enigma those "you go girl" comments only show the immorality of that woman and her carnival of crows justifying their miserable existence. I wouldn't say they're anything to boast about as a support system. People like that like to be secretly happy about the carnage of other people's lives and enable bad behavior to justify their own actions.


So true. Do you think it’s has to do with how you’re raised to process bad things in life? Or is it more the personality you have determines how you get through infidelity? Or maybe both. I often wonder how some people have the wherewithal to just be done and never look back, and others (ahem 🙋‍♀️) linger and linger Before we’ve had enough. And then how long it takes to process it all. Infidelity should be it’s own social science.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> So true. Do you think it’s has to do with how you’re raised to process bad things in life? Or is it more the personality you have determines how you get through infidelity? Or maybe both. I often wonder how some people have the wherewithal to just be done and never look back, and others (ahem 🙋‍♀️) linger and linger Before we’ve had enough. And then how long it takes to process it all. Infidelity should be it’s own social science.


Hmmm... Yes and no. I'd say for me it was personality, example and circumstance. 

Personality - I am rather fatalistic and well aware that bad **** can happen to anyone at any time. I suppose I am more hardened to infidelity than most, my father was a serial cheat, my mother endured it until he got abusive in the end. She faced opposition from members of her OWN family, infidelity is somewhat accepted in my birth country. I was damned if I was going to waste my life to please anyone.

Example- My mom set an example for me - she left him, and started over with nothing, and built a very successful career. 

Circumstance - I _did_ linger though, DD2019 wasn't my first rodeo, he had an EA with a married woman in 2011. Our marriage took a beating for many things after that (death in the family, job loss, major illness) and still he turned to another woman for validation (workplace A). I did linger, I still loved him and wanted R, until I found out it was PA, that infuriated me enough to harden my heart and take action to erase him from my life. We had no children to bind us for life, so I was able to disappear and go dark. Most people can't do that.


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## naskurol (May 31, 2021)

Twodecades said:


> Conventional wisdom assumed that men cheat more than women, though that gap seems to have closed in the most recent generation. If you read discussion boards, you'll find just as many betrayed men posting about D Day as women.
> 
> There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


Most men beg and plead to get their wives back and thats backwards thinking. The last thing a woman wants is her spinless husband begging to take her back when her new man look more alpha than he does.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

naskurol said:


> Most men beg and plead to get their wives back and thats backwards thinking. The last thing a woman wants is her spinless husband begging to take her back when her new man look more alpha than he does.


That's called the "pick me! dance," and both genders do it. Why do you think most men do it (you may be right, I don't know)? It's probably extra unattractive for women, because neediness is I think less tolerable in men than the other way around. Though it's not attractive in either gender, their is more of a place for it in a knight in shining armor scenario.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

So my husband just explained to me that men don't really find comfort from finding out that other guys or male friends struggle with the same things. At least not in the same way women do. (He wasn't referring to infidelity, specifically, just how men support one another re: problems.) He seemed to be saying that men are more "lone wolves" when it comes to their emotions and inner thoughts. They don't find relief from talking about them with their friends. They find support in giving and gaining practical solutions. Or working or blowing off steam in like-minded company. Thoughts?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> So my husband just explained to me that men don't really find comfort from finding out that other guys or male friends struggle with the same things. At least not in the same way women do. (He wasn't referring to infidelity, specifically, just how men support one another re: problems.) He seemed to be saying that men are more "lone wolves" when it comes to their emotions and inner thoughts. They don't find relief from talking about them with their friends. They find support in giving and gaining practical solutions. Or working or blowing off steam in like-minded company. Thoughts?


I find comfort in finding out how another man might have dealt with a problem and add his experience to my tool box.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> That's called the "pick me! dance," and both genders do it. Why do you think most men do it (you may be right, I don't know)? It's probably extra unattractive in women, because neediness is I think less tolerable in men than the other way around. Though it's not attractive in either gender, their is more of a place for it in a knight in shining armor scenario.


I did that song and dance. It did not work. Amazingly what works so much better is being done and filing legal paperwork. Funny how that works! So I guess it’s not that successful for most people that do it. Or if it is successful, I don’t see how it could bring about the “right” kind of R.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> I did that song and dance. It did not work. Amazingly what works so much better is being done and filing legal paperwork. Funny how that works! So I guess it’s not that successful for most people that do it. Or if it is successful, I don’t see how it could bring about the “right” kind of R.


I had to fix a word in there (I end up with a lot of typos). I think "pick me" is even more unattractive TO women (not in), because the knight in shining armor thing really only works one direction...male "neediness" is generally deemed less attractive.

Regardless, though, I think both genders do it. I haven't seen that men do it more than women, but if Naskurol is right, I'd be interested to know why that is. I also think it's a natural reaction, and the desire to want to accommodate and improve yourself for a spouse that you trust is a good thing, in a healthy marriage. (And you were operating like a loyal spouse, with good intentions.) It's just that infidelity is like abuse, and often the BS is taken for granted for the infidelity to even occur, so their desire to change, give more, is only further taken for granted. I think it's also human nature to place less value on what is easily attained (in this case, BS's devotion). It feeds the WS's feelings of entitlement. I'm sorry you were so taken for granted. I think, unfortunately, there are a lot of betrayed spouses who've been in your shoes with that.

And you are right about serving the papers....I have seen it play out IRL and read so many threads on infidelity forums in which the WS really believes that the BS spouse's love and loyalty is so endless that they will never pull the plug, never stand up for themselves. WS assumes that there will be no real consequence. D papers or the reality of divorce end up being a wake-up call. How much of one ends up being the question.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> I had to fix a word in there (I end up with a lot of typos). I think "pick me" is even more unattractive TO women (not in), because the knight in shining armor thing really only works one direction...male "neediness" is generally deemed less attractive.
> 
> Regardless, though, I think both genders do it. I haven't seen that men do it more than women, but if Naskurol is right, I'd be interested to know why that is. I also think it's a natural reaction, and the desire to want to accommodate and improve yourself for a spouse that you trust is a good thing, in a healthy marriage. (And you were operating like a loyal spouse, with good intentions.) It's just that infidelity is like abuse, and often the BS is taken for granted for the infidelity to even occur, so their desire to change, give more, is only further taken for granted. I think it's also human nature to place less value on what is easily attained (in this case, BS's devotion). It feeds the WS's feelings of entitlement. I'm sorry you were so taken for granted. I think, unfortunately, there are a lot of betrayed spouses who've been on your shoes with that.
> 
> And you are right about serving the papers....I have seen it play out IRL and read so many threads on infidelity forums in which the WS really believes that the BS spouse's love and loyalty is so endless that they will never pull the plug, never stand up for themselves. WS assumes that there will be no real consequence. D papers or the reality of divorce end up being a wake-up call. How much of one ends up being a the question.


I can tell you what I was thinking... I was clinging to finding the reason for the cheating. He was blaming me for not meeting his needs, I felt he wasn’t seeing me clearly, so I thought I’d remind him of what he was missing out on. It’s the opposite of what I ever thought I would do in that situation.

As an aside... thank you for your compassion, but I am actually getting to a point where I feel no regret about anything that happened, or even my reactions to what happened.

Someone on my original thread posted that one day I would view what he did as a gift. I thought, well that just sound absolutely CRAZY! But now... I can see it. I don’t see it as a gift yet, but I am starting to feel hope in my future, and a I feel a lot of grace in this process of rebuilding my life. I know one day I _will _see this experience as a gift. Weird! It’s like people here know what they are talking about or something!!!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> I can tell you what I was thinking... I was clinging to finding the reason for the cheating. He was blaming me for not meeting his needs, I felt he wasn’t seeing me clearly, so I thought I’d remind him of what he was missing out on. It’s the opposite of what I ever thought I would do in that situation.
> 
> As an aside... thank you for your compassion, but I am actually getting to a point where I feel no regret about anything that happened, or even my reactions to what happened.
> 
> Someone on my original thread posted that one day I would view what he did as a gift. I thought, well that just sound absolutely CRAZY! But now... I can see it. I don’t see it as a gift yet, but I am starting to feel hope in my future, and a I feel a lot of grace in this process of rebuilding my life. I know one day I _will _see this experience as a gift. Weird! It’s like people here know what they are talking about or something!!!



It is crazy but finding out about my then hb keeping his ex gf on the side our entire relationship was a gift to me because I was unhappy in the marriage due to incompatibilities.

But it's really hard to accept that you're incompatible and I might well have stayed married to him if not for this. I was willing to accept a lot of things I shouldn't when I thought he was honest and trustworthy. Once I realized he wasn't I was out.

It hurt at the time and I did need time to process it but I got there.

I'm much happier without him.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> It is crazy but finding out about my then hb keeping his ex gf on the side our entire relationship was a gift to me because I was unhappy in the marriage due to incompatibilities.
> 
> But it's really hard to accept that you're incompatible and I might well have stayed married to him if not for this. I was willing to accept a lot of things I shouldn't when I thought he was honest and trustworthy. Once I realized he wasn't I was out.
> 
> ...


Life sure is strange. That we can come to see terrible events as a gift. I think the more fighting and the more denial the BS does to keep from feeling the pain, the worse it becomes. It’s like when you just accept the reality and allow the deep hurt to happen... something magical starts to happen. That sounds stupid, I’m an extremely pragmatic person but I can’t describe what has happened inside me as anything else.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> I had to fix a word in there (I end up with a lot of typos). I think "pick me" is even more unattractive TO women (not in), because the knight in shining armor thing really only works one direction...male "neediness" is generally deemed less attractive.
> 
> Regardless, though, I think both genders do it. I haven't seen that men do it more than women, but if Naskurol is right, I'd be interested to know why that is. I also think it's a natural reaction, and the desire to want to accommodate and improve yourself for a spouse that you trust is a good thing, in a healthy marriage. (And you were operating like a loyal spouse, with good intentions.) It's just that infidelity is like abuse, and often the BS is taken for granted for the infidelity to even occur, so their desire to change, give more, is only further taken for granted. I think it's also human nature to place less value on what is easily attained (in this case, BS's devotion). It feeds the WS's feelings of entitlement. I'm sorry you were so taken for granted. I think, unfortunately, there are a lot of betrayed spouses who've been in your shoes with that.
> 
> And you are right about serving the papers....I have seen it play out IRL and read so many threads on infidelity forums in which the WS really believes that the BS spouse's love and loyalty is so endless that they will never pull the plug, never stand up for themselves. WS assumes that there will be no real consequence. D papers or the reality of divorce end up being a wake-up call. How much of one ends up being the question.


I think something that contributes to a cheater's sense of the betrayed's devotion is that its a natural reaction to go into shock and just want to preserve your life when cheating is discovered. The prospect of one's life flipping upside down is scary and laws of inertia apply. The initial reaction is to try to salvage what you can.

Entitled cheaters take this and run with it.

I can tell you that my initial shock reaction caused my ex to overestimate how much I wanted the marriage so he was going to use that to put me in my place and show me who was boss.

After I found out about his ex gf he threatened ME with divorce, because I "just wanted to be miserable" by bringing it up a week later. He had always given me flowers on my birthday and that year (a couple of months later) he didn't (that's how a conflict avoidant passive aggressive douchebag says **** you), and he didn't bother making any effort at all for the marriage.

But let me tell you the panic from him when I told him I wanted a divorce. Started sending me flowers, pretended not to hear me, sent me emails saying I'd change my mind (baby couldn't have an actual adult conversation in person), refused to take his ring off and continued to refer to me as his wife (general denial). I think the idiot still has a picture of himself with his wedding ring on and it will be 3 years since the divorce this fall.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Life sure is strange. That we can come to see terrible events as a gift. I think the more fighting and the more denial the BS does to keep from feeling the pain, the worse it becomes. It’s like when you just accept the reality and allow the deep hurt to happen... something magical starts to happen. That sounds stupid, I’m an extremely pragmatic person but I can’t describe what has happened inside me as anything else.


I get it. I'm also quite pragmatic but it's a question of more pain now followed by freedom or less pain now but it will never end.

It's like fighting the urge to cry....you're just miserable longer. Go ahead and cry and you feel better.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

QuietRiot said:


> It’s the opposite of what I ever thought I would do in that situation.


So many people say this.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

If I were to talk about any insecurities or whatever it would almost certainly be with someone that would be legally required to keep that **** under wraps. Or a place where I'm relatively anonymous like here.

I've been choked up over particular books that I was reading with my kids or a couple movies which is OK in moderation but too much would be another sign of weakness. Crying about a death in the family? Not after the day of death and possibly not outside of the room in which they died.

For most of my relationship with my ex I couldn't really share vulnerabilities much with her for fear that they'd be weaponized later or used as a reason to think less of me. In any future relationship I'm going to approach these kinds of things with a lot of caution. I'm certainly not going to trust that someone who supposedly cares for me is going to be accepting or supportive.

There was a comment about suicide. Most guys will handle what they can stoicly until they can't anymore and then they'll select a sure method of getting the job done and just do it. Women often take a bunch of pills or cut their wrists and then call a girlfriend to cry about it. That's one of the reasons guys are so good at it. It isn't sad and they don't believe that anyone would care anyway. It's just the last job that needs to get done.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Twodecades said:


> So many people say this.


It is absolutely true that you really do not know what you will feel, and do, until something happens! Every person I know, including myself said, I would never try to work things out with a cheater. It’s just not that simple when it happens.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Hiner112 said:


> If I were to talk about any insecurities or whatever it would almost certainly be with someone that would be legally required to keep that **** under wraps. Or a place where I'm relatively anonymous like here.
> 
> I've been choked up over particular books that I was reading with my kids or a couple movies which is OK in moderation but too much would be another sign of weakness. Crying about a death in the family? Not after the day of death and possibly not outside of the room in which they died.
> 
> ...


Anyone who weaponizes another's weakness is a piece of ****.

I have no problem at all with a guy who sheds tears....as long as he still remains a functional adult. But that applies to me too....adults can't abdicate their responsibilities because they're sad.

Shed your tears and then take care of business and I will do the same.

I've seen my bf shed some tears and I would NEVER weaponize that. That's dirty fighting and people who fight dirty are poor partners.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

Hiner112 said:


> It isn't sad and they don't believe that anyone would care anyway. It's just the last job that needs to get done.


I know you say it isn't sad, but to me, it is heartbreaking. Not just suicide triggered by infidelity, but for our military vets who do it...


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

My grandfather used to meet up every few years with his fellow POWs who had made it back. They were the only ones he would ever really talk about any of the captivity with. He had signs of what would now be considered PTSD. I still can't picture him crying in front of them. Different generation, though.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Hiner112 said:


> If I were to talk about any insecurities or whatever it would almost certainly be with someone that would be legally required to keep that **** under wraps. Or a place where I'm relatively anonymous like here.
> 
> I've been choked up over particular books that I was reading with my kids or a couple movies which is OK in moderation but too much would be another sign of weakness. Crying about a death in the family? Not after the day of death and possibly not outside of the room in which they died.
> 
> ...


I think it’s impossible to have a loving and healthy relationship with someone you cannot be vulnerable with. Do we need to be soppy and discuss feeling all the time with a man? No, but I want to know if my man is hurting, I want to be able to be there with him in that storm. I want to know his dreams and desires. I want to know what he fears. That doesn’t mean I don’t want him to be a man, it just means I want to know his heart. I can see with women like your ex, why men don’t feel comfortable with vulnerability.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Hiner112 said:


> If I were to talk about any insecurities or whatever it would almost certainly be with someone that would be legally required to keep that **** under wraps. Or a place where I'm relatively anonymous like here.
> 
> I've been choked up over particular books that I was reading with my kids or a couple movies which is OK in moderation but too much would be another sign of weakness. Crying about a death in the family? Not after the day of death and possibly not outside of the room in which they died.
> 
> ...


This is so sad! I prefer to know when my mate is hurting, to give him extra TLC, not kick him while he's down! That's completely heartless and disloyal. 


QuietRiot said:


> I think it’s impossible to have a loving and healthy relationship with someone you cannot be vulnerable with. Do we need to be soppy and discuss feeling all the time with a man? No, but I want to know if my man is hurting, I want to be able to be there with him in that storm. I want to know his dreams and desires. I want to know what he fears. That doesn’t mean I don’t want him to be a man, it just means I want to know his heart. I can see with women like your ex, why men don’t feel comfortable with vulnerability.


I agree. However, everyone's idea of a "loving and healthy " relationship is vastly different.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> This is so sad! I prefer to know when my mate is hurting, to give him extra TLC, not kick him while he's down! That's completely heartless and disloyal.
> 
> I agree. However, everyone's idea of a "loving and healthy " relationship is vastly different.


For clarification purposes, I’m not saying I ever had this loving and healthy relationship. 😂 Sure sounds nice though!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Torninhalf said:


> Some men get fast cars during a midlife crisis. Mine choose a fast woman. It kills me because our sex life was what it always was. 3 to 4 times a week. I knew his love language was sex and I gave it to him. A younger “badge bunny” peaked his interest and he was off to the races.


I know a trooper that his wife cheated with one of his fellow trooper best friend. The BS trooper then slept with that OM troopers wife, then slept with his wife's best friend to boot.

Got revenge on best friend by sleeping with OBS, then revenge on WS by sleeping with her BFF.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> This is so sad! I prefer to know when my mate is hurting, to give him extra TLC, not kick him while he's down! That's completely heartless and disloyal.
> 
> I agree. However, everyone's idea of a "loving and healthy " relationship is vastly different.


Luckily my wife loves the fact i get emotional about sad or romantic things. She does not think i am weak for it. However i dont get upset and freak out over issues. Im also a man that can get very violent toward one that threatens my family. Most people look at me, 6'05" and think i look like a pissed off cop. I have blue eyes and the sun is bright to me, that is why i squint, not because im pissed at the world. But i am forever the hopeless romantic. I love watching Halmark movies and love weddings and what they represent. Im the one crying the most because something is sad or just so romantic i have a big smile and tears streaming down my face.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Twodecades said:


> So my husband just explained to me that men don't really find comfort from finding out that other guys or male friends struggle with the same things. At least not in the same way women do. (He wasn't referring to infidelity, specifically, just how men support one another re: problems.) He seemed to be saying that men are more "lone wolves" when it comes to their emotions and inner thoughts. They don't find relief from talking about them with their friends. They find support in giving and gaining practical solutions. Or working or blowing off steam in like-minded company. Thoughts?


The old me was conflict avoidant, especially if i was hurt by something she did...I told my wife i would start chewing on a issue and taking bites(processing) out of it. After a period of time the situation is small enough i can swallow it without choking on it. I do not want to discuss it, i will deal with it. Until i can't.....or unless it is too big.

But i came to realize those chewed up problems/offenses i swallowed, began to grow like a cancer inside me. Those issues were still there but were held inside me. Causes all sorts of good things....1st being high blood pressure from the stress. 2nd shortened life span.

When my wife knew something was wrong and got me to talk, the dam burst and all those things came back up that i had been holding down. Things i felt were offenses against me. She was stunned to say the least....she never knew something she did bothered me. Now i do not keep my mouth closed. As she said....how can i change something if i do not know it is an issue. Guys you have to communicate! Good or bad.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Divinely Favored said:


> The old me was conflict avoidant, especially if i was hurt by something she did...I told my wife i would start chewing on a issue and taking bites(processing) out of it. After a period of time the situation is small enough i can swallow it without choking on it. I do not want to discuss it, i will deal with it. Until i can't.....or unless it is too big.
> 
> But i came to realize those chewed up problems/offenses i swallowed, began to grow like a cancer inside me. Those issues were still there but were held inside me. Causes all sorts of good things....1st being high blood pressure from the stress. 2nd shortened life span.
> 
> When my wife knew something was wrong and got me to talk, the dam burst and all those things came back up that i had been holding down. Things i felt were offenses against me. She was stunned to say the least....she never knew something she did bothered me. Now i do not keep my mouth closed. As she said....how can i change something if i do not know it is an issue. Guys you have to communicate! Good or bad.


Thank you for this.

This was issue #1 with my ex hb. He was so terrified of conflict and being uncomfortable that he painted a phony smile on his face and played dumb. He did this when he was upset and when he upset me.

So nothing ever got resolved. Normal adult conversations between husband and wife couldn't happen because he couldn't be uncomfortable.

My resentment towards him built because I wasn't allowed to address anything. In his case, not only did he resent me for things I knew nothing about.... his nasty passive aggressive behavior grew because he looked for ways to reclaim power that didn't involve conflict. And I never knew what his grievances were, only that he was a nasty prick. He would choose the path of least resistance for himself and then be pissed off at me and I had no idea any of it was going on.

So many things could've been settled quickly if he would have spoken up and just had a damn conversation with me.

I'm glad you worked this out.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> This was issue #1 with my ex hb. He was so terrified of conflict and being uncomfortable that he painted a phony smile on his face and played dumb. He did this when he was upset and when he upset me.
> 
> ...


Exactly this! I was soo angry at times and resentful. I was following in my dad's path. I got to a place where i was thinking if she does not change after this...im gone. All the while i was the one that needed to change.

I felt unloved as physical touch is my LL and she was irritated and did not have that loving feeling. She kept pushing me and poking the bear so to speak. She could see a man in me and she was trying to wake him up. I got to my breaking point and i could not hold it back. She was hurt and felt like she did not know who i was, as i had with held all of this. 

I remember it in detail, her sitting on the bed beside me and i was trying to hold back the Boulder Dam. My blood pressure was probably through the roof and once i sprung that 1st leak...i could not hold tge rest back. I felt so bad dumping my resentment and hurt for things she had been doing for years and never knew. She was stunned and angry and i felt like the weight of tge world was lifted off me. 

From that point on i began to change. Reading NMMNG slapped me upside the head pretty hard. I became the man of my house. The man that my wife was fighting to bring out emerged. 

Our lives got 10x better. Been married 24 yrs and past 8 have been the best, we are like newly weds. We are the couple that others wished their spouses were like and who embarases our kids with PDAs. My wife changed her behavior because she now felt safe to do so since i took control of the ship as a captain should. She is my 1st officer that i rely on for her invaluable real world experience. She is 3.5yrs my senior and practically raised her 2 brothers. 

She is now the awesom mom, strong woman and loving submissive wife and my best friend, that i love more than life and would give the world to. I am her King and she is my Queen and will give her what ever she asks for up to half my kingdom. She is also happier with our marriage than ever. We both are eagerly waiting for my retirement so we can spend more time together.

Sorry..i get carried away talking about her. 😁

Ticket to a relationship is you have to communicate...good and bad.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> For clarification purposes, I’m not saying I ever had this loving and healthy relationship. 😂 Sure sounds nice though!


Girl, I am learning! I was so well "trained" that conversation would never happen during a conflict I tried to break up when we had different expectations. I was surprised that a man wanted to talk through things to find a solution. 


Divinely Favored said:


> Luckily my wife loves the fact i get emotional about sad or romantic things. She does not think i am weak for it. However i dont get upset and freak out over issues. Im also a man that can get very violent toward one that threatens my family. Most people look at me, 6'05" and think i look like a pissed off cop. I have blue eyes and the sun is bright to me, that is why i squint, not because im pissed at the world. But i am forever the hopeless romantic. I love watching Halmark movies and love weddings and what they represent. Im the one crying the most because something is sad or just so romantic i have a big smile and tears streaming down my face.


I don't think that is weak either, I love emotional men. My bf is very emotional, but he is also resilient and determined when things don't go his way (and boy has this happened a lot for both of us this last year). It feels special to me to see the emotional, affectionate side of him when he presents to the world as very serious and stoic. 

He tears up during family scenes in TV shows, or sometimes when we're extra lovey dovey. I don't wonder what he thinks or feels, so it makes me feel safe and loved, certainly not disgusted!


lifeistooshort said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> This was issue #1 with my ex hb. He was so terrified of conflict and being uncomfortable that he painted a phony smile on his face and played dumb. He did this when he was upset and when he upset me.
> 
> ...


My exH was a younger version of yours! Oh man, he always had this petulant look on his face, but wouldn't _say_ anything! I was so infuriating, instead of talking, I got days of silent treatment until I behaved and was "good". 

He was this nice guy to everyone but me eventually, I was sad and confused about the whole thing b/c we used to be very close and communicative for the 5 years we were long-distance. I didn't understand how communication suddenly became difficult. 

How did it start with you two? I'm still watching my bf with a side-eye to see if that becomes an issue later on, despite how strongly I feel about him. I just can't live that way again, no matter what.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Exactly this! I was soo angry at times and resentful. I was following in my dad's path. I got to a place where i was thinking if she does not change after this...im gone. All the while i was the one that needed to change.
> 
> I felt unloved as physical touch is my LL and she was irritated and did not have that loving feeling. She kept pushing me and poking the bear so to speak. She could see a man in me and she was trying to wake him up. I got to my breaking point and i could not hold it back. She was hurt and felt like she did not know who i was, as i had with held all of this.
> 
> ...


I love this! I’m so happy you two figured this out. This is how I think it SHOULD be.

Just wondering... what is NMMNG?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> How did it start with you two? I'm still watching my bf with a side-eye to see if that becomes an issue later on, despite how strongly I feel about him. I just can't live that way again, no matter what.


Have you seen any indication in your bf that he has this kind of behavior? I’m sure you would have sniffed that out by now...


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Have you seen any indication in your bf that he has this kind of behavior? I’m sure you would have sniffed that out by now...


No. Like I mentioned, I was ready to bail when we had conflicting expectations. He actually initiated the conversation to sort them out and it took me by surprise because I was used to conflict avoidance and knew where that led. I didn't realize couples did things differently. That's why I hang around here, learning from everyone.

Of course, we've known each other barely 18 months, so who knows what can come out over time. We shall see.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

TXTrini said:


> No. Like I mentioned, I was ready to bail when we had conflicting expectations. He actually initiated the conversation to sort them out and it took me by surprise because I was used to conflict avoidance and knew where that led. I didn't realize couples did things differently. That's why I hang around here, learning from everyone.
> 
> Of course, we've known each other barely 18 months, so who knows what can come out over time. We shall see.


Thats a great sign. That’s why I was confused by the side eye. I see you are just sayin you are you are on the lookout. Sucks that you have that weariness, but also... it’s good to have it.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

QuietRiot said:


> I love this! I’m so happy you two figured this out. This is how I think it SHOULD be.
> 
> Just wondering... what is NMMNG?


No More Mr Nice Guy. -
Get rid of covert contracts. Be a man and put down the **** tests. Quit letting your women walk over you and find your balls. 

Also MMSLP Married Man Sex Life Primer.

My wife was telling me what she needed from me, but i was not understanding. Now we can speak each others thoughts. 

If you watched Lonsome Dove, Gus said a little poke never hurt nobody. 
Any way, when we would say something the other was thinking, instead of a Coke, We would say, "Jinx, you owe me a poke" Ill collect it tonight.😋 Now we just say, "POKE!" when other says something you are thinking. She got one on me this morning before i left for work.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> Girl, I am learning! I was so well "trained" that conversation would never happen during a conflict I tried to break up when we had different expectations. I was surprised that a man wanted to talk through things to find a solution.
> 
> I don't think that is weak either, I love emotional men. My bf is very emotional, but he is also resilient and determined when things don't go his way (and boy has this happened a lot for both of us this last year). It feels special to me to see the emotional, affectionate side of him when he presents to the world as very serious and stoic.
> 
> ...


One day we were watching "UP!" and i was sitting tgere during part where the old man is remembering all the times from his life with his wife, to loosing pregnancy, cancer and her death. (My wife lost 7 before she carried our 2 boys) Im there with tears rolling down my face watching this cartoon. My oldest said if my friends could see you now. They are scared of you and think you are mean looking. They see me in "cop mode" with badge, pepper spray and .45 on my hip. Dont realize im a big teddy bear at heart.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> One day we were watching "UP!" and i was sitting tgere during part where the old man is remembering all the times from his life with his wife, to loosing pregnancy, cancer and her death. (My wife lost 7 before she carried our 2 boys) Im there with tears rolling down my face watching this cartoon. My oldest said if my friends could see you now. They are scared of you and think you are mean looking. They see me in "cop mode" with badge, pepper spray and .45 on my hip. Dont realize im a big teddy bear at heart.


I always cry at that part. And when they are in the dr office. And also Moana when her grandmother dies. It’s so bad my kids watch me instead of the movie so they can catch me crying. Stupid emotions.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Rubbish. There are a good many women who cheat because they are bored of their husband and marriage and want to feel sexually desired again. And what stands in their way? Nothing.

More women in the workplace, unlike the 70's, makes it way more prevalent than in the past. Less ostracization from modern society make it less morally reprehensible. Courts that are far more generous to women than in the past when it may have been financially ruinous to have an affair that led to divorce.

There are no more barriers and more opportunities so the infidelity rates are equal now. Men just have different reasons than women most of the time. Men's motives are completely physical while women's are more emotional.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

As for betrayed men vs betrayed women, I'd say it's far more acceptable for the BW to reconcile than the BH. I think there are tons of roadblocks in either cases with family and friends and everyone who has an opinion, but there is no derogatory word associated with a female who stays, like the male specific 'cuckold'. It's a blow to both your pride and ego to know your wife let another man enter her. And also for others who may see you as weak for sticking around. Or being the ridicule of their jokes behind closed doors. No self respecting man wants to be that guy. I think most men who do stay want to bury it as far down as possible and as a result develop a hatred for their spouse.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> More women in the workplace, unlike the 70's, makes it way more prevalent than in the past. Less ostracization from modern society make it less morally reprehensible. Courts that are far more generous to women than in the past when it may have been financially ruinous to have an affair that led to divorce.





UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think there are tons of roadblocks in either cases with family and friends and everyone who has an opinion, but there is no derogatory word associated with a female who stays, like the male specific 'cuckold'.


Both very good points, Upsidedownworld.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TXTrini said:


> Girl, I am learning! I was so well "trained" that conversation would never happen during a conflict I tried to break up when we had different expectations. I was surprised that a man wanted to talk through things to find a solution.
> 
> I don't think that is weak either, I love emotional men. My bf is very emotional, but he is also resilient and determined when things don't go his way (and boy has this happened a lot for both of us this last year). It feels special to me to see the emotional, affectionate side of him when he presents to the world as very serious and stoic.
> 
> ...



There were always signs, but I'd just ended an abusive marriage to my kids father and wasn't in a good place to recognize and deal with it. 

He'd make nasty comments under his breath and paint a phony smile on his face and part of me would wonder if I was crazy because I'd never dealt with anything like that.

Or he'd make ridiculously inappropriate comments about ex gf's followed by the same phony smile and playing dumb.

One time my mom was visiting and we were all driving down to Orlando. My mom and I were talking about something his majesty didn't like so he muttered "who cares" under his breath. It was just loud enough to hear but not loud enough to be part of the conversation. He did passive aggressive douchebag stuff like that all the time.

When we were in the car he'd drive aggressively and blare his horn at people, then when they drove up and looked at him he'd look away and pretend not to see them. One time he almost started a fight because he purposely sped up so a guy couldn't get over, then when the guy sped up and cut him off he layed on the horn. The guy dropped back next to us, rolled down his window, and cursed him out. Baby didn't have the backbone to actually face anyone so he pretended not to hear anything and looked away. 

That's how people get shot.

I could kick my own ass for putting up with that.

You should have been there a while back when I ran by him across the street (going the other way) and he gave me one of his nasty pa laughs that he's not used to being called put on. I flipped him off and told him to **** right off....he looked away and didn't utter a peep. But later I got a text saying he cared about me and didn't understand my anger and hostility, then he wished me a nice day.

It was hilarious....right out of the pa handbook 🤣🤣🤣


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> He'd make nasty comments under his breath and paint a phony smile on his face and part of me would wonder if I was crazy because I'd never dealt with anything like that.
> 
> Or he'd make ridiculously inappropriate comments about ex gf's followed by the same phony smile and playing dumb.
> 
> ...


I had a family member like that (who, incidentally, also was a serial cheater). So toxic. Did he also frequently accuse you of not being able to take a joke? Yet was easily offended when the tables were turned and you tried to dish it back?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> There were always signs, but I'd just ended an abusive marriage to my kids father and wasn't in a good place to recognize and deal with it.
> 
> He'd make nasty comments under his breath and paint a phony smile on his face and part of me would wonder if I was crazy because I'd never dealt with anything like that.
> 
> ...


Might ex was more subtle. He never said anything directly. It was always a story about someone else, everything negative was always someone else's fault. One particularly stinging memory was when he put on a comedy sketch deriding women over 30 as old *****, looking at me sideways. 

He'd listen to melancholy music, want to share songs with questionable lyrics but didn't have the guts to speak up. I'm never going to deal with a hint of that again, it made me doubt my senses.

Good riddance to cowardly ****heads.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> He'd listen to melancholy music, want to share songs with questionable lyrics but didn't have the guts to speak up


He sounded like a moody teenager.



TXTrini said:


> Good riddance


^^Yep. No room for manipulation tactics in an adult relationship. They're enough work as it is.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> He sounded like a moody teenager.
> 
> ^^Yep. No room for manipulation tactics in an adult relationship. They're enough work as it is.


Well he cheated with one, so it makes sense. I'm not the most "grown up" adult ever, but I can't imagine the quality of conversation with someone so much younger.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> Well he cheated with one, so it makes sense. I'm not the most "grown up" adult ever, but I can't imagine the quality of conversation with someone so much younger.


Likely it was a lot of flirting and fawning over him because she had no clue what a real man is.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Twodecades said:


> Likely it was a lot of flirting and fawning over him because she had no clue what a real man is.


Not my monkey, not my circus! He's her problem now.

I'm enjoying back and foot rubs I never would have dreamed of getting and all the nookie I could want


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> There were always signs, but I'd just ended an abusive marriage to my kids father and wasn't in a good place to recognize and deal with it.
> 
> He'd make nasty comments under his breath and paint a phony smile on his face and part of me would wonder if I was crazy because I'd never dealt with anything like that.
> 
> ...


Good gravy!!??? You must have the patience of a saint to have put up with him as long as you did!!

I could almost make a career out of the material from this one guy.😱

I'm so glad you got out. You're still somewhat sane to boot! 😉


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

Twodecades said:


> There are definitely some universal reactions to infidelity, but are there ways in which betrayed men react differently than betrayed women? Men, are there ways in which you've felt misunderstood by infidelity resources or society at large? Are there things you found helpful in coping that you had to find out the hard way?


Misunderstood by infidelity resources at large? Yes. There are many that will state that men are dogs when they cheat, but when women do, its because the men pushed them to it and it should be understood, not condemned.

Things I found helpful in coping? Yes, learning that the former idea is garbage and not take any crap off anyone who tried to ask me "what did you do to make your wife cheat?" Barking up the wrong tree on that one.


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## drencrom (Jul 1, 2021)

lifeistooshort said:


> No different from a woman picking a guy based on money and then being shocked if he's a jerk, but we're usually not shocked because *we know it's a business deal.*


Um...err..... ok


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I'm a child of the 70s
> 
> Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting.


"I'm a child of the 70s" 

So I am.

"Women still basically want to play house a lot more than men, so many come to a point sooner rather than later they look for something lasting"

True, but this does not necessarily entail also loyalty. 
Lot if not most of infidelities are cake eating, to have someone else while staing in a lasting familiar relationship.
That seems to be now true for both genders.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ElOtro said:


> "I'm a child of the 70s"
> 
> So I am.
> 
> ...


Well some of them will certainly LeapFrog if their current frog isn't going to work out. I actually only knew one woman who was like that but I know some are and sometimes it's for financial reasons or sometimes it's because they can't stand to be alone for 2 minutes. But then I've known guys like that too.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well some of them will certainly LeapFrog if their current frog isn't going to work out. I actually only knew one woman who was like that but I know some are and sometimes it's for financial reasons or sometimes it's because they can't stand to be alone for 2 minutes. But then I've known guys like that too.


"But then I've known guys like that too" agrees with my "That seems to be now true for both genders."

"I actually only knew one woman who was like that...." I wish I knew so few (men and women).

If people (both men and women) interested in someone other than thier partners were leaving their relationship instead of staying while not being loyal, infidelities would be, by farm less frequent.
Or they would choose only one previous to cheat or there would be only exit affairs.

But that is not what happens. 
Cake eating was, decades ago, a male "paradigm" or so was said.
The legend needs an update since time ago.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ElOtro said:


> "But then I've known guys like that too" agrees with my "That seems to be now true for both genders."
> 
> "I actually only knew one woman who was like that...." I wish I knew so few (men and women).
> 
> ...


Cheating is just the most hurtful way to leave a relationship or to stay in one. I have to mention that at least in the era I grew up there weren't too many formal commitments unless you were just married and so it was not black and white whether you were actually cheating on someone because many times there was no commitment anyway but one party or the other may have reacted as if there was. 

It just seems to be like if you are in a serious relationship and a committed relationship that you have to leave for whatever reason, that you'd want to do so with some sort of Honor and go about it the right way. But things get complicated and of course we see on here how many people rationalize cheating because of one thing or another like sex.


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