# Shallow problems but already grieving separation/divorce, HELP!



## Dude007

Hello,

This may sound similar to another thread(s) which is a good thing.(Common Problems)

I have been married for 20 years. I have 3 children, 2 girls (15 and 12), and 1 son(22 my prior marriage)

She is probably the greatest woman I know but we have had serious communication problems over the years and our limited compatibility has moved to very incompatible as you will read below. We are not arguing and have a lot of "projects" going on. We are great business partners and co-parents but have just never really been close as I think spouses should be. I'm in counseling currently and she is not. 

We are both 44 years old.

- She stopped drinking any alcohol about 2 years ago. I still like to drink and go to the big city for night life but we never do this now.

- She has consistently gained weight, but still pretty. I run 5ks and work out three days a week minimum.

- She started working at the church about 2 years ago, see no. 1 above.

- My religious beliefs are not near to the level hers are these days.

- We do not like the same music(her Christian, me Alternative Rock)

- We triangulate thru the kids and that makes everything seem fine on the surface.

- I almost always initiate sex but its still fairly frequent after all these years.

We recently went on a trip together and it was just us. That's when I really saw the deep changes between us and started imagining a future when the kids were grown. Then the grieving started and hit me like a ton of bricks. I'm basically having anticipatory grief surrounding a marriage that is not full filling and all my dreams, hopes, etc for my future life with my wife are being grieved. I CAN NOT hide these symptoms and have told my wife what is happening. She has been more attentive and supportive. We both recognize that she wanted the intimate/close relationship early in the marriage and was hurt by my immaturity and selfishness of not responding in kind. To protect her from this hurt, walls have been built over the years that seem insurmountable. This coupled with poor communication due to opposite personality types and its very predictable how we got here. The grieving process is awful, I cycle through bargaining, despair, etc. Remembering all the good times and I must say the bad time memories are fading. I'm scared I'm headed for indifference(acceptance) as we all know that is the end of the marriage. 

Anyone have any advice? The grief symptoms can be debilitating at times. Thank you for your time...Dude


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
Its difficult to tell just from posts, but I don't see anything you've said that seems insolvable. 

Unless she objects to alcohol, can she go with you, but drink non-alcoholic beverages? Do you drink a bit - or get blotto?

Is here weight gain seriously unhealthy, or just mild? 

You have different levels of religious belief, but can she accept that difference?


Maybe you just need a chance to fall in love again. Take a romantic trip. You say she is the greatest woman you know - does she know that you think that?


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## Dude007

I believe she knows I think a lot of her. The issue is there was never really a "fall in love" moment. I'm sure it sounds trite on here for some of the folks but we cared a lot about each other but even in the beginning it seemed like we were just good friends and excellent biz partners. Yes there was sex but it was never really passionate. I considered not marrying her initially but because she was such a great person, I just let the lack of passion go. That was a mistake I'm finding out. The problem is I'm grieving the loss of dreams of passionate/close/intimate marriage I never had. I cant stop it, the grief is taking me where it wants to go. Does this make sense? thank you for your response.


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## Cynthia

Not feeling deeply connected or passionate about your spouse is not a trivial thing. It's quite serious.
What are you doing to be the passionate, romantic spouse that you want her to be for you?
Are her beliefs new to her or is she just increasing her commitment? What denomination is she?


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## Dude007

I'm trying to be more passionate/romantic but it was never part of our relationship. She is assembly of God, not new, but RAPID increase.


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## Cynthia

Dude007 said:


> I'm trying to be more passionate/romantic but it was never part of our relationship. She is assembly of God, not new, but RAPID increase.


Why has she stopped drinking alcohol? Assemblies of God does not teach abstinence from alcohol. Why did she stop drinking and does she have a problem if you are drinking?
Your marriage has never been passionate, but since your mutual interests are dwindling you are feeling disconnected.
You can learn to understand each other and you can find mutual interests. I think marriage counseling could be very good for the two of you. If your wife wants to see a Christian marriage counselor, that should work well for both of you. If you are upfront immediately about your beliefs, the counselor will respect that and it will help the process. The counselor won't try to convert you. He is there to help solve marriage problems.
There are a lot of things the two of you can do to resolve the issues in your marriage. Have you asked your wife to start exercising with you and changing her eating habits to be healthier? If she is eating a healthy diet, she should get back to her ideal weight. Cutting way back on grains and eliminating cereals and grains while adding in more vegetables could help her lose the weight.
If she is on the same page with you regarding fitness and health, that could help.
What things did you do that hurt her in the past and what can you do to make it up to her now?


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## Happilymarried25

Yes they are shallow and you are being too dramatic. Grieving? It's good to be different and have different activities outside of the marriage. You are going to throw away 20 years of marriage and only seeing your children on the weekends for these small differences? Read the infidelity forum, those couple have problems your situation is minor. There is nothing wrong with working at a church and being religious. She not initiating, that's normal, she is having sex frequently with you. She can still go to the city and see a show and drink a Coke. She has gained weight but is still pretty and you are attracted to her. Most couples like different music, so what. Stay in your marriage and be grateful for what you have.


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## Dude007

Wow! I knew at least one person would consider me trite..I can improve our mutual interests by giving up some of my interests, but should we have SOME NATURAL mutual interests outside of kids? One side always has to give in because there are no REAL MUTUAL INTERESTS?. We will be staring at each other in a few years when they leave. This anticipatory grieving is real, w real symptoms, not to be taken lightly.


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## EnigmaGirl

I have to disagree with the some of the above posters. I think what you're describing is extremely serious and I was in a similar marriage.

My first marriage, I got married young, was married for over 20 years and was not in love with my husband when I married him. And I never fell in love with him through the marriage...in fact, the opposite happened.

The things that you described might not be serious to some other people. A lot of people have very low expectations for marriage. They live with partners that they're ok with and don't expect to have a high degree of compatibility, affection or love for their spouse. 

That didn't work for me. I need a real partner to share my love, my life, my secrets, my goals and my passions with. 

I tried for a long time to be satisfied with what I had chosen and I found I simply couldn't. The longer it went on, the I felt like a caged animal. By the end, I fantasized about divorce and being single every hour of every day. And because we had a miserable marriage, my kids weren't very happy either. We led increasingly separate lives...separate rooms, separate meals, separate families, separate social lives. 

Its just a fact that if you try to ignore your needs....after a time, they'll start screaming out and they becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about wanting a real partnership with someone you share real compatibility with. However, if you divorce, you have to be prepared to be single....because there's zero guarantee that you'll find a better partner. So you have to decide whether your current situation is bad enough to merit the difficulty of the divorce process on you, your kids, and your extended family. Also, you have to decide whether or not your marriage is intolerable enough that you would rather be alone the rest of your life.

For me, the answer was simple...so I got divorced and frankly, it was the best thing I ever did in my adult life. After I got separated, I was lucky enough to meet the man of my dreams. We're compatible in every possible way and I truly have someone to share my life with now. I have a hard time now understanding how I tolerated my first marriage for as long as I did.

As far as someone saying the religion thing, the music thing, the socializing thing is a small deal. I completely disagree that that's an absolutely true fact. Its very dependent on you and your tolerance level for these things. Some people can have different religious views in marriage and work around it...some people can't. Its a totally personal thing. Personally, there's no way I could tolerate a religious zealot as a life partner.

Bottom line, a successful marriage has nothing to do with its length. It has to do with the level of loyalty, love, respect, and partnership that two people share. If you don't feel that way about your spouse, you're doing both of you a disservice. You need to spend some real time figuring out if this is fixable or whether you two have major irreparable incompatibility issues. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you're feeling. You only get one life and you have every right to expect fulfillment out of it.


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## EnigmaGirl

> Wow! I knew at least one person would consider me trite..I can improve our mutual interests by giving up some of my interests, but should we have SOME NATURAL mutual interests outside of kids? One side always has to give in because there are no REAL MUTUAL INTERESTS?. We will be staring at each other in a few years when they leave. This anticipatory grieving is real, w real symptoms, not to be taken lightly.


lol...You are not trite but its unrealistic to expect that people who have very low expectations of partnership will understand what you're going through.

How many married people do you know who are miserable, unfulfilled and disappointed with their partner and yet would NEVER get divorced?

You can't ask others to assess how serious this is for you...its a very personal thing. If its any consolation, for every person here who'll tell you to get over it...there'll be one who'll understand what you're feeling. At the end of the day, you have to decide what's right for you and your one life.


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## Dude007

enigmagirl said:


> i have to disagree with the some of the above posters. I think what you're describing is extremely serious and i was in a similar marriage.
> 
> My first marriage, i got married young, was married for over 20 years and was not in love with my husband when i married him. And i never fell in love with him through the marriage...in fact, the opposite happened.
> 
> The things that you described might not be serious to some other people. A lot of people have very low expectations for marriage. They live with partners that they're ok with and don't expect to have a high degree of compatibility, affection or love for their spouse.
> 
> That didn't work for me. I need a real partner to share my love, my life, my secrets, my goals and my passions with.
> 
> I tried for a long time to be satisfied with what i had chosen and i found i simply couldn't. The longer it went on, the i felt like a caged animal. By the end, i fantasized about divorce and being single every hour of every day. And because we had a miserable marriage, my kids weren't very happy either. We led increasingly separate lives...separate rooms, separate meals, separate families, separate social lives.
> 
> Its just a fact that if you try to ignore your needs....after a time, they'll start screaming out and they becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about wanting a real partnership with someone you share real compatibility with. However, if you divorce, you have to be prepared to be single....because there's zero guarantee that you'll find a better partner. So you have to decide whether your current situation is bad enough to merit the difficulty of the divorce process on you, your kids, and your extended family. Also, you have to decide whether or not your marriage is intolerable enough that you would rather be alone the rest of your life.
> 
> For me, the answer was simple...so i got divorced and frankly, it was the best thing i ever did in my adult life. After i got separated, i was lucky enough to meet the man of my dreams. We're compatible in every possible way and i truly have someone to share my life with now. I have a hard time now understanding how i tolerated my first marriage for as long as i did.
> 
> As far as someone saying the religion thing, the music thing, the socializing thing is a small deal. I completely disagree that that's an absolutely true fact. Its very dependent on you and your tolerance level for these things. Some people can have different religious views in marriage and work around it...some people can't. Its a totally personal thing. Personally, there's no way i could tolerate a religious zealot as a life partner.
> 
> Bottom line, a successful marriage has nothing to do with its length. It has to do with the level of loyalty, love, respect, and partnership that two people share. If you don't feel that way about your spouse, you're doing both of you a disservice. You need to spend some real time figuring out if this is fixable or whether you two have major irreparable incompatibility issues. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you're feeling. You only get one life and you have every right to expect fulfillment out of it.


biiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggggoooooooooooooo!


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
note "trite" at all. Its difficult for posts to convey the difference between a mild cooling down of a relationship with a few problems and one where there is a basic lack of bonding and love. 





Dude007 said:


> I believe she knows I think a lot of her. The issue is there was never really a "fall in love" moment. I'm sure it sounds trite on here for some of the folks but we cared a lot about each other but even in the beginning it seemed like we were just good friends and excellent biz partners. Yes there was sex but it was never really passionate. I considered not marrying her initially but because she was such a great person, I just let the lack of passion go. That was a mistake I'm finding out. The problem is I'm grieving the loss of dreams of passionate/close/intimate marriage I never had. I cant stop it, the grief is taking me where it wants to go. Does this make sense? thank you for your response.


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## Sammy64

EnigmaGirl said:


> I have to disagree with the some of the above posters. I think what you're describing is extremely serious and I was in a similar marriage.
> 
> My first marriage, I got married young, was married for over 20 years and was not in love with my husband when I married him. And I never fell in love with him through the marriage...in fact, the opposite happened.
> 
> The things that you described might not be serious to some other people. A lot of people have very low expectations for marriage. They live with partners that they're ok with and don't expect to have a high degree of compatibility, affection or love for their spouse.
> 
> That didn't work for me. I need a real partner to share my love, my life, my secrets, my goals and my passions with.
> 
> I tried for a long time to be satisfied with what I had chosen and I found I simply couldn't. The longer it went on, the I felt like a caged animal. By the end, I fantasized about divorce and being single every hour of every day. And because we had a miserable marriage, my kids weren't very happy either. We led increasingly separate lives...separate rooms, separate meals, separate families, separate social lives.
> 
> Its just a fact that if you try to ignore your needs....after a time, they'll start screaming out and they becoming increasingly difficult to ignore. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about wanting a real partnership with someone you share real compatibility with. However, if you divorce, you have to be prepared to be single....because there's zero guarantee that you'll find a better partner. So you have to decide whether your current situation is bad enough to merit the difficulty of the divorce process on you, your kids, and your extended family. Also, you have to decide whether or not your marriage is intolerable enough that you would rather be alone the rest of your life.
> 
> For me, the answer was simple...so I got divorced and frankly, it was the best thing I ever did in my adult life. After I got separated, I was lucky enough to meet the man of my dreams. We're compatible in every possible way and I truly have someone to share my life with now. I have a hard time now understanding how I tolerated my first marriage for as long as I did.
> 
> As far as someone saying the religion thing, the music thing, the socializing thing is a small deal. I completely disagree that that's an absolutely true fact. Its very dependent on you and your tolerance level for these things. Some people can have different religious views in marriage and work around it...some people can't. Its a totally personal thing. Personally, there's no way I could tolerate a religious zealot as a life partner.
> 
> Bottom line, a successful marriage has nothing to do with its length. It has to do with the level of loyalty, love, respect, and partnership that two people share. If you don't feel that way about your spouse, you're doing both of you a disservice. You need to spend some real time figuring out if this is fixable or whether you two have major irreparable incompatibility issues. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way you're feeling. You only get one life and you have every right to expect fulfillment out of it.




This is a GREAT post...


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## Cynthia

Do you want to resolve these issues or not? If you could work this out with your wife, would you or do you just want to give up now that you realize there is a problem? 
I'm not saying this is not serious. I'm saying that when you have a serious problem, the logical thing is to seek a solution. Divorce will solve some of your issues, but it will cause a lot of issues as well.


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## Nomorebeans

You sound very much like my husband in terms of how he started feeling about our marriage a couple years ago. STBX husband, I should say. We were married for 25 years and have a beautiful 13-year-old son. He checked out of our marriage two years ago, but unlike you, didn't bother to say a word to me about it. Went through the whole grieving process on his own without sharing any of it with me. Once he no longer cared about me/got to the Acceptance phase, he met a woman at an out of town funeral and started having an affair with her. Now, we've filed for divorce and he's left me and our son for her.

No, your problems are not trivial. And I commend you for at least talking to your wife about your feelings. 

You say you've never really been in love with her, so I don't know that what you have is fixable. But you do have two early teenage children, as do I. You may want to consider at least trying marriage counseling, given that you do seem to have great respect for her and you have kids to consider.

Just promise me this - and I apologize if you don't possess the inherent character flaw that makes one capable of it - do yourself, if no one else, a favor and please don't cheat. If it can't be fixed, leave your wife and kids honorably and be alone for a bit before you get serious about someone else. My STBXH set our divorce in motion because he established a nice little relationship for himself and a soft cushion to land on from within the comfort, and there still was some, if our marriage. His affair has shattered my trust in him and our friendship. It is also the worst pain I have ever endured - more than just the pain of divorce - he has added to that the pain of not respecting me enough after 27 years together to not lie to me. Don't do that to your wife.


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## Dude007

CynthiaDe said:


> Do you want to resolve these issues or not? If you could work this out with your wife, would you or do you just want to give up now that you realize there is a problem?
> I'm not saying this is not serious. I'm saying that when you have a serious problem, the logical thing is to seek a solution. Divorce will solve some of your issues, but it will cause a lot of issues as well.


I see the basics of my idea of a spousal relationship non-existent. The love, intimate, romance, etc. The Bond/Glue that holds everything else in place. So no, I don't think it will ever improve because these elements never really existed. Now that I'm older(and hopefully wiser), my mind won't let me believe its a great marriage just because we don't argue and the kids are wonderful and bills are paid. My conscious is realizing its not a fruitful marriage and grieving is taking place. By grieving I mean loss of appetite, trouble sleeping, trouble concentrating. I'm looking out in the marital future and its not at all what I thought it would be "growing up". So I'm grieving that LOST DREAM, exciting vacations, etc with a life long intimate partner. Make sense?


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## Cynthia

Dude007 said:


> I see the basics of my idea of a spousal relationship non-existent. The love, intimate, romance, etc. The Bond/Glue that holds everything else in place. So no, I don't think it will ever improve because these elements never really existed. Now that I'm older(and hopefully wiser), my mind won't let me believe its a great marriage just because we don't argue and the kids are wonderful and bills are paid. My conscious is realizing its not a fruitful marriage and grieving is taking place. By grieving I mean loss of appetite, trouble sleeping, trouble concentrating. I'm looking out in the marital future and its not at all what I thought it would be "growing up". So I'm grieving that LOST DREAM, exciting vacations, etc with a life long intimate partner. Make sense?


So the answer to my question is no, you don't want to try to resolve the problems, because you think there is nothing between you and your wife that would make it worth your while to try to build a relationship and romance with her. You should tell her that now, rather than taking your time to grieve your marriage and divorcing her when you're ready. She needs to know that you plan to divorce her and consider this hopeless. That would be the honorable thing to do.


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> You sound very much like my husband in terms of how he started feeling about our marriage a couple years ago. STBX husband, I should say. We were married for 25 years and have a beautiful 13-year-old son. He checked out of our marriage two years ago, but unlike you, didn't bother to say a word to me about it. Went through the whole grieving process on his own without sharing any of it with me. Once he no longer cared about me/got to the Acceptance phase, he met a woman at an out of town funeral and started having an affair with her. Now, we've filed for divorce and he's left me and our son for her.
> 
> No, your problems are not trivial. And I commend you for at least talking to your wife about your feelings.
> 
> You say you've never really been in love with her, so I don't know that what you have is fixable. But you do have two early teenage children, as do I. You may want to consider at least trying marriage counseling, given that you do seem to have great respect for her and you have kids to consider.
> 
> Just promise me this - and I apologize if you don't possess the inherent character flaw that makes one capable of it - do yourself, if no one else, a favor and please don't cheat. If it can't be fixed, leave your wife and kids honorably and be alone for a bit before you get serious about someone else. My STBXH set our divorce in motion because he established a nice little relationship for himself and a soft cushion to land on from within the comfort, and there still was some, if our marriage. His affair has shattered my trust in him and our friendship. It is also the worst pain I have ever endured - more than just the pain of divorce - he has added to that the pain of not respecting me enough after 27 years together to not lie to me. Don't do that to your wife.


THE LAST THING ON MY MIND IS ANOTHER WOMAN AT THIS POINT!! I'll need years to heal correctly and get in tune with myself. And yes, I'll step down respectfully. And I'm assuming you know your ex relationship will go down in flames.


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## EnjoliWoman

Hm - these things aren't black and white. 

Couples can have different interests and support each other in them - you might love cars and car shows, she might like crafts and craft shows. Some individual interests are good. Let her do church and you do something else. As long as you find some common ground, you'll be content.

Now I see you want more than contentment. If you put some effort into igniting some passion and worked with her to do the same - date/woo each other again - you might be surprised. Fake it til you make it mentality. Passion is the main thing you miss. I'm not trying to be trite but this could just be a bit of a mid-life crisis. And there are quite a few stories here about walkaway wives/husbands who don't realize until it's too late that they actually had a pretty good thing. Long term compatibility is difficult to find. Many men don't have sex once a week (some once a month or less) and are unhappy while you do have regular sex - as they say, even bad sex is still good. Some of the best marriages were built on friendships. You two are best friends, it sounds like.

It seems what's missing is some playfulness. Outside the bedroom and in. I think you should honestly tell her that you had a vision of life after kids and it frightened you. And that you want more than that for BOTH of you and how do you get it/get it back? See a counselor. Ask her to take a walk after dinner with you every night to get exercise and couple time. Hold hands. You respect her, you love her, you just aren't HOT for her. 

If you just can't make it happen after a year of trying, you can separate knowing you tried, but I really think we over-emphasize Disney type love. Love is trust, kindness, honesty, steadfastness... you just want to get past the mundane living. I think you can do that and there are tons of resources here. The grass is NOT always greener.


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## Dude007

CynthiaDe said:


> So the answer to my question is no, you don't want to try to resolve the problems, because you think there is nothing between you and your wife that would make it worth your while to try to build a relationship and romance with her. You should tell her that now, rather than taking your time to grieve your marriage and divorcing her when you're ready. She needs to know that you plan to divorce her and consider this hopeless. That would be the honorable thing to do.


She thinks there is hope, I just can't visualize that hope so my grieving continues apace until proven otherwise. Maybe she knows something I don't but I haven't filed or left. I've told her I can't live this way. She knows I'm in counseling, she is not interested in counseling at this time.


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## EVG39

Dude007 said:


> Hello,
> 
> This may sound similar to another thread(s) which is a good thing.(Common Problems)
> 
> I have been married for 20 years. I have 3 children, 2 girls (15 and 12), and 1 son(22 my prior marriage)
> 
> She is probably the greatest woman I know but we have had serious communication problems over the years and our limited compatibility has moved to very incompatible as you will read below. We are not arguing and have a lot of "projects" going on. We are great business partners and co-parents but have just never really been close as I think spouses should be. I'm in counseling currently and she is not.
> 
> We are both 44 years old.
> 
> - She stopped drinking any alcohol about 2 years ago. I still like to drink and go to the big city for night life but we never do this now.
> 
> - She has consistently gained weight, but still pretty. I run 5ks and work out three days a week minimum.
> 
> - She started working at the church about 2 years ago, see no. 1 above.
> 
> - My religious beliefs are not near to the level hers are these days.
> 
> - We do not like the same music(her Christian, me Alternative Rock)
> 
> - We triangulate thru the kids and that makes everything seem fine on the surface.
> 
> - I almost always initiate sex but its still fairly frequent after all these years.
> 
> We recently went on a trip together and it was just us. That's when I really saw the deep changes between us and started imagining a future when the kids were grown. Then the grieving started and hit me like a ton of bricks. * I'm basically having anticipatory grief surrounding a marriage that is not full filling and all my dreams, hopes, etc for my future life with my wife are being grieved*. I CAN NOT hide these symptoms and have told my wife what is happening. She has been more attentive and supportive. We both recognize that she wanted the intimate/close relationship early in the marriage and was hurt by my immaturity and selfishness of not responding in kind. To protect her from this hurt, walls have been built over the years that seem insurmountable. This coupled with poor communication due to opposite personality types and its very predictable how we got here. The grieving process is awful, I cycle through bargaining, despair, etc. Remembering all the good times and I must say the bad time memories are fading. I'm scared I'm headed for indifference(acceptance) as we all know that is the end of the marriage.
> 
> Anyone have any advice? The grief symptoms can be debilitating at times. Thank you for your time...Dude


Nothing at all wrong or trite about wanting to improve your marriage. And frankly it sounds like your wife is not opposed to working on it as well. I think you might find some of the work of David Schnarch helpful as you move forward, particularly his books Passionate Marriage and Intimacy and Desire.
On the other hand, when I read over your post and particularly the part I have bolded, you really seem to be putting a lot of pressure on the marriage, and therefore, your wife to be the source of your happiness. I would back off from that concept right now if I were you. Be responsible for your own happiness, do the things that make you happy right now and look for contentment that way. I think it was Dr. Glover who said (paraphrasing) don't look to your women for your purpose, build a great purposed filled life and then invite your woman to be a part of it. It's a change or perspective that you might find helpful.


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## jb02157

This is a theme to many marriages: both great with kids but hides behind it, she doesn't want/need sex, gains weight, doesn't cook or clean, blames all past problems on your immaturity/communication problems etc...fill in the blank. The 10,000 foot view looks pretty darn normal: happy kids, nice house, new cars, Disney vacations...but behind closed doors a miserable husband/father. I think women at this stage in the game have it wired that they don't have to do anything they don't want to since she knows with child support or not, she still gets half of everything and that will be enough to live a comfortable life without you or anyone else to bother her. Divorce in this country has created hundreds of thousands broke, divorced, loveless middle-aged men who started out with the best of intensions, to love their wife, make a great family and have their wife with them to grow old with. Trouble is, their wife never wanted that from that begining and prefers to take what a strategically planned divorce will get them.


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## SecondTime'Round

OP, do you think perhaps anxiety would be a better word than grieving? 

I don't think any of this is trite or minor. I commend you for wanting to deal with it before it gets worse. I hope you two make it.


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## Dude007

SecondTime'Round said:


> OP, do you think perhaps anxiety would be a better word than grieving?
> 
> I don't think any of this is trite or minor. I commend you for wanting to deal with it before it gets worse. I hope you two make it.


Yes and no, Anxiety is a symptom of grief. I'm grieving because I'm experiencing a great loss or a great loss is pending. Probably both in a way.


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## Nomorebeans

jb, you couldn't be more wrong.

It wasn't a dream of mine after 25 years of marriage to be in my 50s and raising a teenage son alone with a "comfortable" divorce settlement. Nor to go through the grieving process I just have, which was worse than losing both my parents. That's just pure crap. We middle-aged women don't just give up on our marriages any more than you middle-aged men do.

I think many middle-aged folks with kids reach a point like the OP where they see their empty nest future and freak out because they don't have the movie love story they think they're entitled to. My STBX and I are deeply compatible on every level and were great friends. We just weren't madly in love with each other after 25 years, and he felt cheated. Rather than at least give it the old college try and talk about it and see if there was anything we could do to feel that playfulness and joy with each other again, he just checked out.

I'm with others here, OP, who say you should at least try - I like the suggestion of taking the walks together every night after dinner. My father and stepmother hit a rough patch years ago and started doing that, and I dare say it saved their marriage.

And I'm glad another woman is the last thing on your mind and you recognize you would need time to be alone and heal if you separated. You sound like a brave and honorable man. As such, you will very likely regret it if you don't try all you can to save this. Or, if finding you can't, you at least give your wife the opportunity to start her grieving process while you're still in it.


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## Mike6211

EnjoliWoman said:


> ... this could just be a bit of a mid-life crisis ...


Expressed too half-heartedly, almost apologetically, Enjoli!

The "mid-life crisis" is trivialised in Western culture - the man resisting his passage into old age, trying to recapture his lost youth, the sports car or motorbike, youthful clothes, a mistress young enough to be his daughter, followed by the tut-tutting and head-shaking of friends, colleagues and family when it all goes pear-shaped.

It's real, it's serious, and it could be going on here.

The key point is that the surge of dissatisfaction, the lost dreams, the anguish, are seen as being "out there" as the man tries to rearrange his external life. The "real work" though, is internal. Some sort of introspection, soul-searching, journaling, meditation, counseling, or whatever is absolutely necessary. And it's very much a case of "no pain, no gain" in that process. 

The OP is facing an inner wake-up call. The part of him that was not given expression in his younger days - the full surge of his energy into founding a strong emotionally bonded relationship - now wants expression. It can then seem compelling to clear the decks by ditching the current spouse ("out there") only to find that whatever held him back when younger is still there ("internal").

The Chinese ideogram for "crisis" is a composite of the ideograms for "danger" and "opportunity". It does sound as if there is both danger and opportunity here. The OP is faced with beating his path through the trackless forest - this situation isn't going to be resolved on the level of "count your blessings and be grateful for what you've got"


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## pb76no

Dude007 said:


> She thinks there is hope, I just can't visualize that hope so my grieving continues apace until proven otherwise. Maybe she knows something I don't but I haven't filed or left. I've told her I can't live this way. She knows I'm in counseling, she is not interested in counseling at this time.


So you're in counseling. What does your counselor say? And just because you can't visualize it, doesn't mean it can't happen. But it definitely can't happen if you've already decided it can't.

In reading this I started thinking about how someone I know had kids, got married before graduating HS. Never got those full teenage experiences. Eventually led to a wild ride in their early 30s when they realized what they missed. Once that was done, they went back to life as usual. That's a really, really short version, but hope you see the point I'm trying to make.


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## Cynthia

Did you tell her you are considering divorce? That might change how she views counseling.


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## Dude007

pb76no said:


> So you're in counseling. What does your counselor say? And just because you can't visualize it, doesn't mean it can't happen. But it definitely can't happen if you've already decided it can't.
> 
> In reading this I started thinking about how someone I know had kids, got married before graduating HS. Never got those full teenage experiences. Eventually led to a wild ride in their early 30s when they realized what they missed. Once that was done, they went back to life as usual. That's a really, really short version, but hope you see the point I'm trying to make.


I get your point..Counselor agrees I'm grieving the loss of what I thought was a fruitful marriage which was really a business arrangement and co-parents. I'm looking forward and its SCARY so it causes anxiety, concentration problems, etc.


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## Lon

You sound like you are already checked out, and now just want help assuaging the guilt you will feel. First I have to ask, what is the outside influence that caused you to suddenly decide to consider your marriage dead and for you to grieve? I can tell you one thing, if this is one sided (she doesn't know that you are grieving the looming end of marriage which you are holding above her and hiding from her she will be rightfully shocked and angry at you when she finds out). Is this a mid-life crisis for you? Is there interest in another potential romantic interest? Is there anything else you will be blindsiding your W with when you leave her?


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## jb02157

Nomorebeans said:


> jb, you couldn't be more wrong.
> 
> It wasn't a dream of mine after 25 years of marriage to be in my 50s and raising a teenage son alone with a "comfortable" divorce settlement. Nor to go through the grieving process I just have, which was worse than losing both my parents. That's just pure crap. We middle-aged women don't just give up on our marriages any more than you middle-aged men do.
> 
> I think many middle-aged folks with kids reach a point like the OP where they see their empty nest future and freak out because they don't have the movie love story they think they're entitled to. My STBX and I are deeply compatible on every level and were great friends. We just weren't madly in love with each other after 25 years, and he felt cheated. Rather than at least give it the old college try and talk about it and see if there was anything we could do to feel that playfulness and joy with each other again, he just checked out.
> 
> I'm with others here, OP, who say you should at least try - I like the suggestion of taking the walks together every night after dinner. My father and stepmother hit a rough patch years ago and started doing that, and I dare say it saved their marriage.
> 
> And I'm glad another woman is the last thing on your mind and you recognize you would need time to be alone and heal if you separated. You sound like a brave and honorable man. As such, you will very likely regret it if you don't try all you can to save this. Or, if finding you can't, you at least give your wife the opportunity to start her grieving process while you're still in it.


I agree that they should give it a try, the thing is that I think she's already checked out, doesn't want sex, gained weight, doesn't want to be bothered. You don't fix a marriage like that, when one of the two is already checked out.


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## Dude007

Lon said:


> You sound like you are already checked out, and now just want help assuaging the guilt you will feel. First I have to ask, what is the outside influence that caused you to suddenly decide to consider your marriage dead and for you to grieve? I can tell you one thing, if this is one sided (she doesn't know that you are grieving the looming end of marriage which you are holding above her and hiding from her she will be rightfully shocked and angry at you when she finds out). Is this a mid-life crisis for you? Is there interest in another potential romantic interest? Is there anything else you will be blindsiding your W with when you leave her?


It appears a lot of people here are jaded by cheating or something and are always trying to uncover an affair partner. There is very little outside influence other than my counselor, that why I'M HERE!! The help I'm asking for is folks who faced similar "leaver" grieving and dealing with the symptoms, trying to explain it to spouse, etc.

why do you expect more blindsiding?


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> It appears a lot of people here are jaded by cheating or something and are always trying to uncover an affair partner. There is very little outside influence other than my counselor, that why I'M HERE!! The help I'm asking for is folks who faced similar "leaver" grieving and dealing with the symptoms, trying to explain it to spouse, etc.
> 
> why do you expect more blindsiding?


Because when you have lived under the status quo and suddenly come to the point of acting on changing something, it ALWAYS is because something spurred the change. The trip you took together in itself wasn't what spurred this for you, so what happened or didn't happen which you were expecting to on your trip that caused you to feel disconnected and decide the only way you could ever be happy again is without your current partner? Why do you need a new/different spouse in order to find the happiness you envision for yourself?

The reason I expect the blindsiding is because your W likely has no clue of how you are feeling and you haven't made an effort to give her the chance to communicate with you. Unless she has explicitly told you she is miserable then when she finds out you are done it will be a sword through her heart.


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## Lon

jb02157 said:


> I agree that they should give it a try, the thing is that I think she's already checked out, doesn't want sex, gained weight, doesn't want to be bothered. You don't fix a marriage like that, when one of the two is already checked out.


Quite the opposite, Dude is the one that is checked out, it rarely happens mutually and simultaneously. She is likely resigned and afraid to disturb the peace, but she isn't demonstrating any traits of someone that is planning their exit. When she suddenly loses weight, gets new clothes, and starts going out more often, that is when she'd be checked out.


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## Dude007

Lon said:


> Because when you have lived under the status quo and suddenly come to the point of acting on changing something, it ALWAYS is because something spurred the change. The trip you took together in itself wasn't what spurred this for you, so what happened or didn't happen which you were expecting to on your trip that caused you to feel disconnected and decide the only way you could ever be happy again is without your current partner? Why do you need a new/different spouse in order to find the happiness you envision for yourself?
> 
> The reason I expect the blindsiding is because your W likely has no clue of how you are feeling and you haven't made an effort to give her the chance to communicate with you. Unless she has explicitly told you she is miserable then when she finds out you are done it will be a sword through her heart.


You have heard of epiphany? Also the sword through her heart may be some form of RELIEF instead. You must have been seared in the past.


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> THE LAST THING ON MY MIND IS ANOTHER WOMAN AT THIS POINT!! I'll need years to heal correctly and get in tune with myself. And yes, I'll step down respectfully. And I'm assuming you know your ex relationship will go down in flames.


And your W will need at least as many years to heal, the longer you delay in communicating your plan to divorce her the more of her years you are robbing her of.


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## EnigmaGirl

> The grass is NOT always greener


Its true that the grass isn't always greener but there comes a time when you realize that the grass you are standing on isn't growing anymore at all.

Like I said, if you make the decision to divorce, there's going to be a lot to deal with...particularly in the short term. So under no circumstances should you make that decision lightly....you need to get informed.

The divorce process is brutal. Its expensive, it can be extremely traumatic to both the spouses and the children and it can be lengthy. You're going to have to deal with feelings of guilt for blowing the marriage/household up....you're going to have to transition your children (and if your ex is bitter that can be a tough process).

You also have to realize that the dating world isn't easy either. If you're looking for a long-term partner, you have to accept that it may or may not happen. You have to be prepared to be alone and think that being alone is still preferential to the marriage.

I can tell you that with everything I went through to get divorced, it was beyond worth it. I remember when I got my divorce decree in the mail, it felt like the first time I had taken a deep, relaxed breath in over 21 years. It was awesome.

But there are still the very occasional days that I deal with lingering feelings. Its hard to put my finger on exactly what they are...maybe some guilt, maybe regret that I married him in the first place...who knows. Its impossible to share a long history with someone and to have kids with someone and not deal with some level of trauma when the marriage breaks up.

That being said, it was the smartest decision I've ever made. I wake up thankful everyday that I've gotten a second chance at having a happy life.

As far as midlife crises go, they aren't a bad thing. I actually don't think of them as "crises" at all...I think its just about life stages. When the kids get to certain ages, its normal to question the next stage of your life and who you're spending it with. Kids are a distraction, they can make your bad marriage manageable. When they're ready to leave the nest, its pretty normal to recognize that you'd like a real partner to share your life with. Evaluating your life and the path that its on at stages is an excellent, smart thing to do. You get one life and if you're spending it with someone you're not really connected to, it just sucks.

As I said, I know there's a lot of people who are ok with being in an "ok" relationship...but some aren't. I will admit that I got to a point in life where I either got what I wanted out of a relationship or I was very satisfied to be single. Being alone sounded pretty damn good to me rather than settling. I wanted to be with someone who understood me or I was pretty fine with just being in my own space doing things my own way.

For me, divorce was about recognizing that I wanted to have "hope" for something better and even if I never got it...it was better than being hopeless in the crappy marriage I was in.

Talk to your spouse, be honest and tell her where you are. The best divorces are ones where you can both admit that the relationship has simply come to its natural end and you can both move on to pursue your life goals separately and still raise the kids together. You might find out that she's as unhappy and unfulfilled as your are....that might be why she's gaining weight.


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## EnigmaGirl

> The reason I expect the blindsiding is because your W likely has no clue of how you are feeling and you haven't made an effort to give her the chance to communicate with you. Unless she has explicitly told you she is miserable then when she finds out you are done it will be a sword through her heart.


I'm sorry but if she really has no clue how he's feeling...that's as much her fault as his.

I agree that he needs to communicate but if he's this checked out and she has no idea, clearly she's not paying any attention to her marriage. 

He's not doing her any favors by staying married to her if he doesn't really want to be with her. The last thing I'd want my husband to do is stick around if he's unhappy.


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> You have heard of epiphany? Also the sword through her heart may be some form of RELIEF instead. You must have been seared in the past.


But what about the "epiphany" made you decide that the solution is to run away from, rather than reconnect with your spouse? The reason I suspect an outside influence is because the fact you are already grieving means you are steadfast and unwavering in your choice to not try to work on it with her. Combined with statements that you "never loved her, never had passion" etc sounds and awful lot like rewriting history (if I were to look through your family photo albums, would I notice an absence of smiles and joy?).

Your resolve to simply make a unilateral choice to divorce means you have no trust or faith in your marriage to overcome this lack of vision of yours, and that will be taken by a vested spouse as a betrayal (no way to avoid this other than by being honest, faithful and open with her). That betrayal is the sword through the heart, and don't try to convince yourself it will be a "relief" for her it will hurt her more deeply than any loss she's ever experienced. Also, please don't ever tell her that you have been grieving all along and feel just as bad, trying to equate what you are going through to what you will drop on her would be insulting and insensitive.

In the end she will eventually accept that she is better off without a partner who is not vested in the relationship, but it's still something you will have robbed her of and will have no right to counsel her on. All I can advise you of is to be as aware, as gentle and as graceful as possible and accountable for the turmoil she is going to go through.


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## Lon

EnigmaGirl said:


> ...*Talk to your spouse, be honest and tell her where you are*. The best divorces are ones where you can both admit that the relationship has simply come to its natural end and you can both move on to pursue your life goals separately and still raise the kids together. You might find out that she's as unhappy and unfulfilled as your are....that might be why she's gaining weight.


This bolded part is all I'm really advocating for on this thread, and also being TRULY open to the idea that there may be a chance to work at it... it may well be that she is not ready or in agreement with the idea their marriage is at its natural end... but as we all know (or should know) is that a marriage takes two to work and only one to terminate. The part that bothers me is when one party has already decided it's over before that conversation takes place.


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## EnigmaGirl

> This bolded part is all I'm really advocating for on this thread, and also being TRULY open to the idea that there may be a chance to work at it... it may well be that she is not ready or in agreement with the idea their marriage is at its natural end... but as we all know (or should know) is that a marriage takes two to work and only one to terminate. The part that bothers me is when one party has already decided it's over before that conversation takes place.


I thoroughly agree that both partners have a responsibility to try whatever they can before they end a marriage...including trying to talk to the other spouse to see if they can find solutions together.

But I've known many partners that ignore obvious problems in a marriage because their needs are getting met even if the other spouses needs aren't. Its not unusual. She has a responsibility to notice how checked out her husband is. If she doesn't, ignores it because she's fine and doesn't care that he isn't...she's hardly a victim in the situation.

I can tell you that if I was this unhappy in my current marriage, my husband would be all over it trying to figure out what was wrong. 

I do, however, agree that he owes her some honesty. I disagree that he should feel guilty for wanting to end the marriage.


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## Lon

EnigmaGirl said:


> I do, however, agree that he owes her some honesty. I disagree that he should feel guilty for wanting to end the marriage.


There should be no guilt for ending a relationship with someone who is incapable and unwilling to meet their relationship needs. There should be guilt if his W actually wants to make an effort to meet his needs but hasn't been given a chance or still is being held to an impossible expectation. That is the part I feel needs to be thoroughly communicated, worked at and exhausted before either partner is allowed to be ethically relieved of their sworn vows.


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## Cecezakat

Dude007 said:


> *There is very little outside influence other than my counselor*


Why did you start seeing a counselor? Did your anxiety/grieving start or strengthen after talks with your counselor? Counselors CAN actually influence couples to divorce. Glance over this article: 6 Reasons Marriage Counseling is BS*|*Laura Doyle


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## EnigmaGirl

> There should be no guilt for ending a relationship with someone who is incapable and unwilling to meet their relationship needs. There should be guilt if his W actually wants to make an effort to meet his needs but hasn't been given a chance or still is being held to an impossible expectation. That is the part I feel needs to be thoroughly communicated, worked at and exhausted before either partner is allowed to be ethically relieved of their sworn vows.


Agreed.


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## Nomorebeans

Lon said:


> But what about the "epiphany" made you decide that the solution is to run away from, rather than reconnect with your spouse? The reason I suspect an outside influence is because the fact you are already grieving means you are steadfast and unwavering in your choice to not try to work on it with her. Combined with statements that you "never loved her, never had passion" etc sounds and awful lot like rewriting history (if I were to look through your family photo albums, would I notice an absence of smiles and joy?).
> 
> Your resolve to simply make a unilateral choice to divorce means you have no trust or faith in your marriage to overcome this lack of vision of yours, and that will be taken by a vested spouse as a betrayal (no way to avoid this other than by being honest, faithful and open with her). That betrayal is the sword through the heart, and don't try to convince yourself it will be a "relief" for her it will hurt her more deeply than any loss she's ever experienced. Also, please don't ever tell her that you have been grieving all along and feel just as bad, trying to equate what you are going through to what you will drop on her would be insulting and insensitive.
> 
> In the end she will eventually accept that she is better off without a partner who is not vested in the relationship, but it's still something you will have robbed her of and will have no right to counsel her on. All I can advise you of is to be as aware, as gentle and as graceful as possible and accountable for the turmoil she is going to go through.


You have described the last several months of my life as if you've watched them like a (devastatingly sad) movie, Lon.

My husband used to profess his undying love and deep passion for me regularly. He did this both in words and actions. Even for most of the last two years, he's regularly told me he loved me and continued calling me by various pet names he had for me, like "Sugar." When he first told me we should separate several months ago and that there was no chance of reconciliation, he had already made up his mind, etc., his reasons were "because things have never been right between us" and he's "never been passionately in love with" me. That, alone, blindsided me.

When I found out there'd been an OW all along a few months ago, he was surprised how shocked and heartbroken I was, and said that I "should have seen it coming" and that "all our friends and (his) family have known the marriage was over for a long time." I've come to find out from our friends and his family, who've reached out to me, that this isn't remotely true, and that they are as shocked and blindsided as I was. And no, that isn't just lip service. His brother is no longer speaking to him because he thinks he's a done a terrible thing, and not because I said a word to him about any of it - I haven't - and his sister's relationship with him has also become quite strained because she feels she doesn't know who he is anymore. Our son, who is a very observant and insightful kid, was absolutely stunned when we told him we were separating and divorcing. We never fought. We hardly ever even bickered, and when we did, it was jokingly and affectionately. I had not put on weight. I did the vast majority of the housework and child rearing while holding down a full time job without complaint. He regularly laughed and smiled over the last two years, and we often spent evenings enjoying the same TV shows and sports together. But we weren't passionately into each other anymore. Sex had become infrequent, but not nonexistent. I was 50, he was 56. I didn't think he was that into it anymore. I brought that up to him a couple times, and he swept it under the rug and said he was fine with the way things were.

At the worst part of my grief after D-Day, I would sob so hard it felt like my guts were being wrenched out of me. Hence the term, I discovered. He told me during this time how he, too, had grieved - that he had for an entire year, and that he "cried like a baby" when he realized it was over. He did this while on trips for his job to other countries - never when he was at home. Claimed he felt just as bad as I did right then during those times. Funny how he could turn the worst grief of his life off and on like that. I told him that how I felt was worse than when my mother died when I was 26. He said, "Well, it wasn't as bad for me as losing my mother, but it was bad." He never cried after losing his mother, by the way. Not that he ever showed me or admitted to.


OP, I'm not accusing you of having someone else in mind. I'll take your word for it that you don't. My and Lon's point is you WILL blindside your wife (and your kids, too) if you don't come fully clean with her that you feel like the marriage has come to its end and you are having serious thoughts about separation and divorce. Have you shown her your grief and let her fully in on where it's coming from? If not, you are hiding it from her. And no OW or not, that is a betrayal.


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## Dude007

NoMoreBeans, you know the odds of his affair relationship survival is close to zero. I realize you hijacked the thread slightly so let me just say you still have all the years and memories w your husband. He is gone now most likely as the walls he created to enter relationship w the other woman has terminated his old self. You however are still your same self and you have all those great memories you speak of he can not take that away. 25 years was an eternity to be married in early 1900. You were great a long long time. Be proud of that!


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## Nomorebeans

Dude007 said:


> NoMoreBeans, you know the odds of his affair relationship survival is close to zero. I realize you hijacked the thread slightly so let me just say you still have all the years and memories w your husband. He is gone now most likely as the walls he created to enter relationship w the other woman has terminated his old self. You however are still your same self and you have all those great memories you speak of he can not take that away. 25 years was an eternity to be married in early 1900. You were great a long long time. Be proud of that!


Sorry for the hijack. I was really just trying to help, and I do that by commiserating. Or projecting. Or both. OK, by projecting. I'm identifying with your wife, obviously, and so am not the most objective judge of your issues. But I hope you can see the other side, at least a little bit.

You're right - STBX's relationship with the OW has unraveled. It turns out that a 53-year-old woman with grown children of her own who would knowingly enter into an extramarital affair with a child involved is "unstable" and has "serious emotional issues." Shocking!

Make no mistake, though. He hasnt terminated his old self. He has revealed the self he's always been.

Thanks for your support. Really didn't mean to hijack, again. I was just trying to show you a different perspective.


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## aine

Dude007, i do not envy your position. 
I think everyone (who does any self reflection at all) will look back on their life, how far they have come, how their marriage turned out etc and find many things not as they expected. however,

1. You have to realise both of your have changed over the years and may not have the same needs, wants, desires, dreams.
2. You have built something beautiful, a family, a home, a marriage (needs work), a business, a life together.
3. No person (spouse, partner,) will ever make you complete, or provide everything in a relationship, it is just not possible as we are all deep down selfish and different
4. You need to work on yourself, (leave your wife out of it) to see who you are and what you can bring to the marriage
5. you may leave the marriage, find yourself and then find someone else. It is highly likely that there will be something missing in the second relationship also due to no 3 above.
6. You may be at the mid life stage where you start to question everything about your current life - you need to read up on this (it happens)
7. Marriage is a committment which means sometimes we don't love or even like the person we are with but we seek to work through the issues to build upon what is there.
8. you need to go to MC, it is possible to 'fall in love' even at this stage. Do not walk until you have tried this. Give yourself a deadline and put in the work, expecting nothing in return initially and see what happens

Good luck


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## Dude007

"Dude007, i do not envy your position. 
I think everyone (who does any self reflection at all) will look back on their life, how far they have come, how their marriage turned out etc and find many things not as they expected. however,"

1. My only issue is with the state of my marriage, not my career, my hair, my body, my house, etc..I'm not questioning the meaning of life. I'm in a bad marriage as I see marriage. Some folks may love my marriage. Its a great business relationship and co-parenting is pretty good. This may be some of your dream marriage, IDK. But for me, I've learned that I have to have a close, intimate relationship with my spouse, EVEN IF the reason we can't be close was my fault from 15 years ago when I shut her down(immaturity) when she wanted to get close. We are where we are today and we can't look back. We look forward..In cost accounting we call these "sunk costs" and they are deemed irrelevant to future decisions. Its applicable here. You don't just stay around because its been 20 years, you stay if looking forward it makes sense to stay! Surely this makes sense to SOMEONE out there???!!


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## Tasorundo

We have very little to really gauge what you are feeling or what you are going through. From reading the thread this is my opinion:

You do have a grass is greener issue going on. While there is not a specific person you have in mind, you are in love with something far worse, an idea. You have an idea of what you want and have built it to be this amazing thing, full of passion, love, romance, excitement, shared interests and just kick ass times.

Whatever you find out there is going to be disappointing, because the one thing that can actually make you happy, you, hasn't changed.


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## Cynthia

Dude007 said:


> But for me, I've learned that I have to have a close, intimate relationship with my spouse, EVEN IF the reason we can't be close was my fault from 15 years ago when I shut her down(immaturity) when she wanted to get close. We are where we are today and we can't look back.


If this happened 15 years ago, what has happened since then? How long did your attitude problem last? How did you change to rebuild trust with your wife and show her that you wanted to have a close, intimate relationship with her? 
I believe that when you hurt someone in a relationship that you have to make up for that hurt before you can begin to rebuild. Just not doing the hurtful thing anymore doesn't work, because it doesn't heal the wound, it only stops the damage from increasing.
Have you asked her what she needs from you? Is it your wife who is not willing to move forward, because you are blaming this on her unwillingness to grow close to you.
Most people want a happy marriage. It is likely that your wife wants to be happy with you and she wants you to be happy with her. 
You have explained how your wife has changed, but now you are telling us how you have changed. You went from a man who apparently didn't care about your wife's needs to -wait that doesn't seem to have changed. You went from a man who didn't care about being close to his wife to a man who needs a close, intimate, passionate relationship in order to be happy. What are you going to do to figure this out as a couple, rather than silently detaching from the woman who loves you and has build a life with you based on your vows?


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## EnjoliWoman

Dude007 said:


> But for me, I've learned that I have to have a close, intimate relationship with my spouse, EVEN IF the reason we can't be close was my fault from 15 years ago when I shut her down(immaturity) when she wanted to get close. We are where we are today and we can't look back. We look forward..In cost accounting we call these "sunk costs" and they are deemed irrelevant to future decisions. Its applicable here. You don't just stay around because its been 20 years, you stay if looking forward it makes sense to stay! Surely this makes sense to SOMEONE out there???!!


There isn't ANY reason you can't be close. She tried, you shut her down, she accepted it. You need only look back to learn from the past but you don't need to relive it. You stay around after 20 years because of the history of trust, love, etc.

It makes sense to stay if you are willing to try and change it and that takes the same brutal honesty that you are willing to dish out to leave. You have to tell her you are sorry you shut her down and that you now realize you NEED what she sought years ago. And counseling is not an option for her - go to marriage counseling and insist.

Take a little bit of The Ghost of Christmas Past, Present and Future.

Do you realize every holiday - Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter or whatever you celebrate - will now be divided? That your kids will feel sorry for Mom because you left and they likely will center their visits around her? That every graduation, wedding, birth of grandchild will be separated into when Dad comes to visit/when Mom comes to visit? Instead of looking into the future and seeing a satisfied, passionate single life, see the reality of it, too. Yes, that will be some of the time. There will also be lonely evenings where friends, dates and kids have plans. There will be holidays where you are trying to find a place to go to be with people you care about. There will be doctor visits you go to alone, and hospital stays without someone at your side. If you are going to be brutally honest, take off the rose colored glasses and see the other side of a future divorced life as well.

You may still opt for divorce. My statement "The grass is not always greener" was countered with "The grass doesn't always grow, either" by another poster. That is true as well. But grass, like the marital garden, requires fertilizer, water, sun and tending to remove weeds, mulch and pruning. Have you tried to tend the garden? Have you told your wife you are near the point of no return?

I am happily divorced because my ex was abusive. But I've been single 11 years and I would love what you have PLUS some tending. I don't think you are at the point of no return IF you BOTH invest some time and TLC.


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## Dude007

EW,

I get what you are saying but it appears there are not many "leavers" on this site I guess for obvious reasons. They didn't seek counsel and just grieved and left. I'm trying to NOT GRIEVE and NOT LEAVE. They are hand in hand. If the grieving doesn't stop because there is no sense of resolution and it takes two to work on a marriage, then you must leave. The grief symptoms will wipe you out. So, I get exactly what you are saying but TRY and view it from someone who is grieving. I can't stop it w/out her help! Even if I was a jerk 15 years ago and she still holds it against me.
The symptoms alone will force the issue unless you are using AD or some other meds to HIDE these which I refuse to do.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

I agree, Dude - it takes two.  If she isn't willing to go to counseling and meet you half way and put any past resentment from your 'immaturity' (your words  ) then it's time to move on. Everyone should be happy and noone should die feeling their life was a waste and a disappointment.

As to meds - not knocking those who really need them - but I determined after getting an Rx and leaving, that it was ex/situation that was depressing; I was not depressed.  After 10 days I just stopped and life has been good, ups and downs included.


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## Dude007

Bingo!!! You rock and thank you for understanding.


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## Tasorundo

So, if you are trying to not grieve and not leave, what are you doing?

In the same post you talk about how you are trying, but then say you cannot stop without her help. So what is she supposed to do to stop you from feeling the way you do? How does she take control of your thoughts and emotions and make you stop having them?

Basically it looks like it is still all about you, and you have created a scenario where this is all her fault and you are mourning the loss of something out of your control. However, what you are heading to is a giant life full of more disappointment, except the carnage only gets more severe.


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## Tasorundo

I know you are going to counseling. I know you want her to go to counseling.

Does she know how much it means for you? Have you told her that you are going to end the marriage? Have you really made an effort to invest your time into her, meeting her halfway on interests?

Why should she show interest in anything you want or do when you have pushed her away? She gave you what you wanted, and now that you have it, you don't want it. Wait, is that a pattern?


----------



## Dude007

Tasorundo said:


> So, if you are trying to not grieve and not leave, what are you doing?
> 
> In the same post you talk about how you are trying, but then say you cannot stop without her help. So what is she supposed to do to stop you from feeling the way you do? How does she take control of your thoughts and emotions and make you stop having them?
> 
> Basically it looks like it is still all about you, and you have created a scenario where this is all her fault and you are mourning the loss of something out of your control. However, what you are heading to is a giant life full of more disappointment, except the carnage only gets more severe.


No, its not her fault, she is human. Humans have defense mechanisms that build walls to protect them from hurt they have experienced in the past. I just happen to look like the guy who was a jerk the first ten years of our marriage and shut her down. So now, she won't allow herself to get close to me which is NATURAL. I in turn grieve a relationship that is not full filling for either of us and neither are is in a good place. I still don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Maybe its just me?


----------



## Tasorundo

It isn't a hard concept to grasp at all. I get it, I understand what you are saying. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I don't understand.

What I am trying to point out is that it is not a hopeless one. There is something to save, if you stop rewriting your past and fantasizing about an ideal future.


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## Cynthia

Did your wife say she doesn't want to get close to you or that she doesn't want to work on the marriage?


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## Mike6211

Dude007 said:


> EW,
> 
> The symptoms alone will force the issue unless you are using AD or some other meds to HIDE these which I refuse to do.


The symptoms might, as you say, force the issue. If you allow them free rein without 'engaging' them.

Note though that the symptoms aren't the problem. As with physical ailments, it isn't the pain in the body that's the the problem, the pain is a symptom of whatever the problem actually is.

Consider taking up meditation, perhaps the best general-purpose entry point to one's inner world. Just be alert after each session for any sudden bubble-up thought out of nowhere, which may give you some insight into what your next step might be.


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## Dude007

Mike, no offense but that meditation comment was funny. Seriously funny


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## Dude007

Cynthia she said no to counseling and u know when a woman doesn't want to get close to u. I Mean u KNOW it!


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## Tasorundo

It's going to take work. Why should she believe you?


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## Cynthia

Dude007 said:


> Cynthia she said no to counseling and u know when a woman doesn't want to get close to u. I Mean u KNOW it!


Have you told her you are considering divorce if she won't work on the marriage with you?
Or did you just tell her you're sad that this marriage is not what you want and you are grieving the loss of it?
She really needs to know that you are planning to or considering divorce.


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## Dude007

If she doesn't want to then I have my answer and i can move on. this isn't a court of law w witnesses, indictments, etc. You are either all in or your out. The reasons you are or not don't matter after twenty years as they are well documented. Just tell me honestly and ill plan accordingly.


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## Dude007

Cynthia I told her I would have to leave if left unresolved. The grief symptoms which I talked to her about are horrid.


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## EnigmaGirl

> So now, she won't allow herself to get close to me which is NATURAL. I in turn grieve a relationship that is not full filling for either of us and neither are is in a good place. I still don't understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Maybe its just me?


What are you looking for here?

The reason I'm asking is because I can guarantee you that when you're truly ready to make the decision to divorce, you won't need anyone's opinion or their acceptance. You just know that you can't tolerate your marriage anymore and you're willing to do whatever it takes to end it. 

If you come to a place where the you're willing to go through the trauma and upheaval of a divorce no matter what the outcome because you have to get out of the relationship, nothing anyone else says is going to matter. And if you make that decision, you'll never be free of a certain level of guilt for the decimation that you do to your previous life. If you're here trying to alleviate that...forget about it. 

The only person who needs to accept the decision and the consequences of that decision is you...not a bunch of strangers on an internet forum.

As for the grass being greener....there are a lot of very happy divorced people and a bunch of very miserable divorced people. There's no guarantee of either state although I think that it helps to really examine your expectations. The more realistic they are, obviously the higher the chance that you meet them.

My expectations for divorce were pretty simple. I simply wanted to not live with or have any daily connection with my ex anymore. I also wanted my own home/space to exist in. The rest, I had hope for but understood that it was highly possible that I'd be alone the rest of my life...which I was more than fine with (being single is pretty awesome).

So you need to do a couple things:
1) Talk to your wife and see if you can put together an action plan to get the marriage back on track, if you can, great...if not:
2) You need to discuss a way to dissolve the marriage with the least amount of trauma to both of you, your finances and your children.

Also before you do any of this stuff, you need to understand what divorce means...the law (get a free consult with an attorney), the family, the kids, the logistics, the finances. And you need to seriously think through your expectations and whether or not they're reasonable.

In the end, you have to live with the consequences of whatever choice you make. I find it troublesome that you're here seeking understanding and acceptance....this is a very, very personal decision and you need to make it by yourself. It really doesn't make any difference what any of us think.


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> Cynthia she said no to counseling and u know when a woman doesn't want to get close to u. I Mean u KNOW it!


Then why the delay for filing separation papers again?


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## Nomorebeans

It's pretty clear Dude is just looking for validation for his feelings and his plans to leave his wife and family. Anyone who doesn't provide that validation "doesn't grasp" what he's saying.

Dude, clearly you've already checked out of your marriage and have reached the Acceptance phase of your grieving process, so you don't care about your wife anymore. This is clear in that many people here have repeatedly asked if you've been 100% honest with her about how you feel and your intentions, and have advised you to do that with her if you haven't, and you've ignored it completely.

So just do what you know you want to do: leave her and your kids. Go. Start divorce proceedings. Do it quickly and honorably before there is someone else to whom you clearly feel entitled, and while there's still a chance of keeping things amicable with her and having a decent relationship with your kids.

Seriously. For the love of God, just go.


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## Lon

Nomorebeans said:


> It's pretty clear Dude is just looking for validation for his feelings and his plans to leave his wife and family. Anyone who doesn't provide that validation "doesn't grasp" what he's saying.
> 
> Dude, clearly you've already checked out of your marriage and have reached the Acceptance phase of your grieving process, so you don't care about your wife anymore. This is clear in that many people here have repeatedly asked if you've been 100% honest with her about how you feel and your intentions, and have advised you to do that with her if you haven't, and you've ignored it completely.
> 
> So just do what you know you want to do: leave her and your kids. Go. Start divorce proceedings. Do it quickly and honorably before there is someone else to whom you clearly feel entitled, and while there's still a chance of keeping things amicable with her and having a decent relationship with your kids.
> 
> Seriously. For the love of God, just go.


Yep, in marriage you are either all in or all out. You are allowed time to think about it when necessary, but if you've already decided you are not all-in and never will be then get out.


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## EnigmaGirl

> So just do what you know you want to do: leave her and your kids.


When you leave your wife, do not leave your kids. Your primary concern should be seeking equal custody and access to your children.

No one here has to live with what the consequences of this decision are going to bring. And mark my words, the process, the upheaval, the temporary trauma, the expense...its all extremely stressful and difficult.

You need to own this if you're going to do it.


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## Cecezakat

I feel like you are saying that you would like to stay in your marriage if it could become fulfilling and you could stop grieving. The problem is you seem to want your wife to bear the burden of making your marriage fulfilling. After all these years you want her to make the first move and prove that she wants to improve the marriage and THEN you would be more than willing to respond to her and work on things. 

Don't you feel that you are in control of your life and your emotions? You can choose to make your marriage more fulfilling. I highly doubt that if you "fake it until you make it" by courting your wife and doing everything to make her fall in love with you that she would simply not respond and not want you, her husband and father of her children. Both people in the marriage don't have to "work" on it. 

Your problem is mostly about not feeling a loving connection to her that would spark more happiness in your life. That is something you can work on alone because most people will respond to someone showering them with romance and love, especially if they already have a history and a marriage. How many people are flattered when they hear someone express their deep love for them, even if it comes from someone they never thought of loving and then go on to fall in love with said person? Does it mean your wife will respond to you instantly, or even in a few days or weeks? She may not, but I feel confident she will respond in due time. 

Right now she probably isn't feeling the love either and therefore also doesn't want to try just like you. Only one of you needs to step up and get the love flowing. Who wouldn't want to be in a loving relationship? Do you think she would see your efforts to be in love with her and refuse you because she would rather being unhappily married or divorced? She will come around and her own love for you will grow in response. 

And no you don't need to "naturally" have mutual interests with each other. You can find mutual interests. It seems like you both just haven't been paying attention to that aspect of your relationship and so you haven't found mutual interests. There is no way you or your wife have tried every hobby and interest in the world, so you can't really say you don't have a mutual interest. You just haven't found any so far and haven't really tried to find them. Sign you and your wife up for classes, activities, or sports that neither of you have tried before.

If your symptoms of grief are that horrible and bringing you down, then take a medication temporarily. I personally have taken anti-depressants and I get the resistance that people have to taking them. However, these medications can be an extremely effective tool in helping your brain and body "snap out of it". The medicine actually helps to remind your brain of the way it should be functioning. When you stop taking the medicine, your brain often picks up the slack and functions better than before you took the medicine. 

There is so much you and you alone can do to make this the marriage of your dreams. I don't think other posters are trying to tell you to settle and have low expectations, but that many of us see the possibilities of you having exactly what you want in your current marriage.


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## Mike6211

Dude007 said:


> Mike, no offense but that meditation comment was funny. Seriously funny


No offence taken. Thing is, first, you don't get the body language and vibes online. If you and I were face-to-face I might 'get it' straight off that you wouldn't be a 'meditation man'. Secondly, these threads are browsed by others, so I think a mix of suggestions, observations, thoughts, on a thread is good, even if they don't help the OP.


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## Nomorebeans

EnigmaGirl, I'm not suggesting Dude have no custody of / relationship with his kids when he leaves. Of course he'll continue to do that. But the reality is that when you leave, you are also literally leaving your kids. They will feel abandoned, no matter how well you handle telling them and how good of a relationship you maintain with them.

I say this as a person whose Dad left my Mom when I was a young child, and whose step siblings' Mom left their Dad when they were young (in her case not for my Dad or any other man, and for very valid reasons that no one has questioned). We all recently got together for a family event, and the subject of divorce came up. One of them was the one who said, "Kids always resent the one who leaves." The others agreed. Dude needs to be prepared for that. They'll certainly resent him less if he leaves honorably and maintains an amicable relationship with their mother. But he is leaving, and they will resent him for that.


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## Cynthia

I'm wondering how long your wife grieved over your unwillingness to get closer to her and have the kind of passionate, close, and loving relationship that she wanted with you. And once she was done grieving for something that you apparently killed, she stayed with you and the children. Now that you want what you refused to give her, you want to leave her. 
How long do you think you should really put an effort into getting to know your wife and loving her before you decide to leave? Have you put an effort into not just romancing her, but into really paying attention when she speaks and learning about who she is and what there is to love about her? How long would you be willing to do that? How about giving it as much time as she gave you and see what happens?


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## Dude007

Thanks for everyone's opinions/thoughts...Is there ONE admitted LEAVER who can chime in that left for reasons other than abuse?


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## Nomorebeans

Have you not been reading EnigmaGirl's posts?


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## SecondTime'Round

Dude007 said:


> Thanks for everyone's opinions/thoughts...Is there ONE admitted LEAVER who can chime in that left for reasons other than abuse?


Why do you need this validation? What are you hoping it will provide you with? I'm not getting it.


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## Cecezakat

Dude007 said:


> I'm trying to NOT GRIEVE and NOT LEAVE.


What is it that you want to hear from a "leaver"? I don't understand what grieving you are really talking about since you say you are grieving over an anticipated future with your wife. Please explain how you think that leaving her will stop your grieving process because I'm not understanding how that would work. Your future with your wife has not come to pass and is not certain to happen in the way you imagine, but if you leave her you will have permanently lost that future with her and then your loss will be very real. To me that would make the grief worse because now an imagined future loss has become a real loss.


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## Dude007

Its called anticipatory grief. I would think most on here would understand the concept as most have been LEFT. The Leaver starts grieving the loss of the marriage long before leaving. Sometimes they start a new romance, get a new job, plan their new life long before actually physically leaving the marriage. Once they leave, they are ALREADY in acceptance or close to it and the LEFT person is starting the grieving process presumably from day 1. So the leaver and the left are not at the same place in the grieving process. The LEAVER seems cold to the LEFT, and the LEFT seems overly dramatic to the LEAVER. Its simple relationship dynamics. In theory, the LEAVER should talk it out w presumed LEFT LONG BEFORE leaving so they can attempt to repair of grieve at the same place with the same knowledge. Maybe EnigmaGirl can chime in if she ever grieved before leaving??


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## EnigmaGirl

> They will feel abandoned, no matter how well you handle telling them and how good of a relationship you maintain with them.


I left my ex-husband. I'm quite certain my kids didn't feel abandoned or resentful at all. In fact, they're much happier now then they were before. Its easy to be a better parent when your energy isn't getting sapped by a bad, unfulfilling marriage.

I think a lot of people who's spouses leave them use this as a guilt tactic but its simply not reality for most of the "leavers". They just want to get away from the ex...not their kids.

My parents also got divorced when I was a kid...I never felt abandoned or resentful. In fact, I felt relief...I hated listening to them argue. After they got divorced, life was a lot more fun with both of them.


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## Dude007

EnigmaGirl said:


> I left my ex-husband. I'm quite certain my kids didn't feel abandoned or resentful at all. In fact, they're much happier now then they were before. Its easy to be a better parent when your energy isn't getting sapped by a bad, unfulfilling marriage.
> 
> I think a lot of people who's spouses leave them use this as a guilt tactic but its simply not reality for most of the "leavers". They just want to get away from the ex...not their kids.
> 
> My parents also got divorced when I was a kid...I never felt abandoned or resentful. In fact, I felt relief...I hated listening to them argue. After they got divorced, life was a lot more fun with both of them.


Yep, we have a LOT of Betrayed/Left Spouses and you can tell they have ZERO compassion for a LEAVER. Both are actually grieving the same loss, but they will NEVER see that, even the cheaters end up missing their former spouse I'm certain. I'll even go so far as they MUST, in time, experience empathy/compassion for your cheating and/or leaving ex to ever really heal fully from the abandonment.


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## Lon

EnigmaGirl said:


> I left my ex-husband. I'm quite certain my kids didn't feel abandoned or resentful at all. In fact, they're much happier now then they were before. Its easy to be a better parent when your energy isn't getting sapped by a bad, unfulfilling marriage.
> 
> I think a lot of people who's spouses leave them use this as a guilt tactic but its simply not reality for most of the "leavers". They just want to get away from the ex...not their kids.
> 
> My parents also got divorced when I was a kid...I never felt abandoned or resentful. In fact, I felt relief...I hated listening to them argue. After they got divorced, life was a lot more fun with both of them.


As for kids, having two happy, healthy separated parents or even one happy healthy separated parent is better than two unhealthy, unhappy parents in a bad marriage. But don't undermine the damage, trauma and grief that kids of broken homes undergo. It is virtually guaranteed that all kids of divorced parents will at some point suffer through depression and have a very high likelihood of being negatively impacted for the rest of their lives.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405852_3


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## EnigmaGirl

> Once they leave, they are ALREADY in acceptance or close to it and the LEFT person is starting the grieving process presumably from day 1. So the leaver and the left are not at the same place in the grieving process. The LEAVER seems cold to the LEFT, and the LEFT seems overly dramatic to the LEAVER. Its simple relationship dynamics. In theory, the LEAVER should talk it out w presumed LEFT LONG BEFORE leaving so they can attempt to repair of grieve at the same place with the same knowledge. Maybe EnigmaGirl can chime in if she ever grieved before leaving??


Sorry I just got home from work.

My marriage died a very slow, lingering death...although there were major incompatibilities from the start. I can pinpoint incidences...maybe about 6-7 of them that definitely put the final nails in the coffin for me. I think that grieving was a long-term process, not an event like it seems to be for you.

By the time I finally left my marriage, I had been emotionally divorced from my ex for a very long time. The thing that kept me around the last 5-10 years was really a sense of obligation, particularly to my children....until finally I realized I was doing them a disservice by staying in an unhappy marriage.

There is no doubt that there is a huge difference in mentality when there are two spouses who have diametrically opposed opinions about whether or not to get divorced. You've been slowly separating yourself for some time...she hasn't. 

But again, that's immaterial. If you're suggesting that you're going to try to get her to the same mental place as you are before you divorce her...give up. A lot of people who are left in marriage never get over it or take a very long time to do so.

I left my very long marriage for one simple reason....it was impossible for me to stay and have any chance at leading a happy, fulfilling life. I felt like I had been a human sacrifice to my ex's needs long enough. So there was really no other option and I didn't need anyone's opinion on whether or not I was justified in leaving. 

You want people here to agree with you and/or validate your decision. You won't get that. 

You probably won't get closure or forgiveness from your stbx spouse either. You'll live with a certain amount of guilt for the rest of your life. You may have long-term unpredictable consequences too. 



> In theory, the LEAVER should talk it out w presumed LEFT LONG BEFORE leaving so they can attempt to repair of grieve at the same place with the same knowledge.


Look, if you want to get divorced and she doesn't...it doesn't really matter when you talk to her. You're not going to get her up-to-speed with your mindset. She's just unlikely to ever agree with you that you can't figure out some way to stay together.

You owe her a discussion and honesty because you're preparing to leave her and she needs to start mentally dealing with that. I think its very unrealistic to expect she's going to validate your decision.

You're the only person who can give yourself permission to do this. I could be wrong but I'm wondering if you're here because you really haven't explored all your options to save your marriage and you feel guilty.


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## Cecezakat

I am not a betrayed or left spouse nor have I left any marriage so none of my posts were coming from that angle. I was simply trying to understand what you are really asking for here on this thread. You said you want to NOT grieve and NOT leave, but everything else you say points that you want to grieve, leave and hope the grieving then stops. 

It seems all you can do is file for divorce. What is stopping you?


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## EnigmaGirl

> But don't undermine the damage, trauma and grief that kids of broken homes undergo. It is virtually guaranteed that all kids of divorced parents will at some point suffer through depression and have a very high likelihood of being negatively impacted for the rest of their lives.


That certainly doesn't apply to me or my children. It really depends completely on how two ex-spouses handle the divorce. We have never involved our kids in any divorce nonsense and never would...neither did my parents. My parents co-parented well and my ex and I do the same. 

I certainly haven't had any life traumas that I can connect to my parents divorce. I have two degrees, a great career, lovely kids, and a great life. I've never suffered from any type of clinical depression or health issue. The only medication I've ever taken is the occasional Tylenol cold.

My kids are also extremely successful at life. My eldest is currently employed full-time and going to grad school and my youngest is a happy, sweet honor roll student. 

The stereotypes about divorced children considering the divorce rates are nonsensical. I grew up with kids that had married happy parents, divorced parents, married miserable parents, no parents, gay parents...whatever...there is no correlation whatsoever to their success rates later in life. In fact, last time I saw some of my high school friends for a night out, they were gossiping about one of the wealthiest kids from my school (who's parents are still married, living the same house) who is on hardcore drugs.

People have to make decisions about what's right for them and their lives and their specific circumstances.


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## Starstarfish

So what was your mutual interest to begin with before the kids? Going out drinking? Working out? 

You had this life long dream of twilight years filled with a loving wife whom you enjoyed things with, and then spent years destroying that future by having no interest in any sort of emotional connection and now take the "high road" position that this is all your wife's fault. (Honestly, that's the vibe you give off, that somehow your sudden realization of what you helped to create is somehow worse than what she probably went through for years realizing she married and then had children with an immature jerk.)

From the way you make it sound you've been the "Leaver" all along, you just now realize it. Your wife has accepted the status quo as your norm, the norm you helped set.


----------



## Lon

EnigmaGirl said:


> That certainly doesn't apply to me or my children. It really depends completely on how two ex-spouses handle the divorce. We have never involved our kids in any divorce nonsense and never would...neither did my parents. My parents co-parented well and my ex and I do the same.
> 
> I certainly haven't had any life traumas that I can connect to my parents divorce. I have two degrees, a great career, lovely kids, and a great life. I've never suffered from any type of clinical depression or health issue. The only medication I've ever taken is the occasional Tylenol cold.
> 
> My kids are also extremely successful at life. My eldest is currently employed full-time and going to grad school and my youngest is a happy, sweet honor roll student.
> 
> The stereotypes about divorced children considering the divorce rates are nonsensical. I grew up with kids that had married happy parents, divorced parents, married miserable parents, no parents, gay parents...whatever...there is no correlation whatsoever to their success rates later in life. In fact, last time I saw some of my high school friends for a night out, they were gossiping about one of the wealthiest kids from my school (who's parents are still married, living the same house) who is on hardcore drugs.
> 
> People have to make decisions about what's right for them and their lives and their specific circumstances.


I'm just pointing out that there are studies upon studies that point to a major correlation between divorce and psychological challenges. You and your kids are outliers, so count you lucky stars. Most people I know with divorced parents struggled through the stages of grief and it shaped a lot about who they are, as it has my own son despite both me and my ex not involving him in any sort of divorce nonsense (apart from the fact that he suddenly had two homes, his two loving parents who were always together suddenly no longer were around each other and at least one of his parents was visibly traumatized for a significant period of time).


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## Nomorebeans

EnigmaGirl said:


> Look, if you want to get divorced and she doesn't...it doesn't really matter when you talk to her. You're not going to get her up-to-speed with your mindset. She's just unlikely to ever agree with you that you can't figure out some way to stay together.
> 
> You owe her a discussion and honesty because you're preparing to leave her and she needs to start mentally dealing with that. I think its very unrealistic to expect she's going to validate your decision.
> 
> You're the only person who can give yourself permission to do this. I could be wrong but I'm wondering if you're here because you really haven't explored all your options to save your marriage and you feel guilty.


I couldn't agree more with all of this. I think you're spot-on on all points, here, EG.

Just to add - I don't have zero empathy for Leavers. I have zero empathy for Cheaters. Dude, if you're miserable in your marriage and believe you and your wife have exhausted all chances and avenues to repair it (and it seems you do, because you're pretty much all the way through the grieving process already), you shouldn't be sentenced to stay in it feeling the way you do for the rest of your life. You should leave honorably and be prepared to be alone for a while, like EG did and was.

Some of the most screwed up people I know come from nightmarish two-parent households in which the parents stayed together "for the kids' sake." My STBXH is one of them. Totally agree that two separate, happy parents are much, much better than united miserable ones.


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## Starstarfish

Also, in fairness, OP it seems like you expected no one would change as individuals during the course of your 20 year marriage. You are 44, and from the description you give like the same things you likely did when you were 24 and got married ... drinking, working out, and alternative rock. Your wife has changed as a person and has settled into what can be deemed a fairly standard norm for a 40ish year old woman with children - involvement in Church/PTA/Scouts such. 

I mean at 44, do people generally still go out drinking? Go out -for a drink- sure, as a middle activity to doing something else, or when going out to eat, etc. But just as the activity in an of itself? Or the "night life scene" is there a point at which people don't generally go clubbing? 

It just seems that your wife has matured and found activities that fit with where she's at in life. And from the limited description you give of desired activities, I'm not sure I get the same vibe from you. You don't describe dreaming about traveling the country and discovering new things after retirement, or I'm not sure. You just describe wanting to maintain the status quo you had at 24 and mourn that passing. 

That would probably pass married or not. Even if you left your wife, make no attempts at reconnecting emotionally to her, and go back out on the market, people are on average I'm guessing at a different place in life at 44 than 24.


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## Dude007

Starstarfish said:


> Also, in fairness, OP it seems like you expected no one would change as individuals during the course of your 20 year marriage. You are 44, and from the description you give like the same things you likely did when you were 24 and got married ... drinking, working out, and alternative rock. Your wife has changed as a person and has settled into what can be deemed a fairly standard norm for a 40ish year old woman with children - involvement in Church/PTA/Scouts such.
> 
> I mean at 44, do people generally still go out drinking? Go out -for a drink- sure, as a middle activity to doing something else, or when going out to eat, etc. But just as the activity in an of itself? Or the "night life scene" is there a point at which people don't generally go clubbing?
> 
> It just seems that your wife has matured and found activities that fit with where she's at in life. And from the limited description you give of desired activities, I'm not sure I get the same vibe from you. You don't describe dreaming about traveling the country and discovering new things after retirement, or I'm not sure. You just describe wanting to maintain the status quo you had at 24 and mourn that passing.
> 
> That would probably pass married or not. Even if you left your wife, make no attempts at reconnecting emotionally to her, and go back out on the market, people are on average I'm guessing at a different place in life at 44 than 24.


I agree I haven't changed much and maybe that is part of the problem! ha! No I've matured but I still love drinks on the patio, maybe clubbing once a year, rock concerts, etc. Luckily I still look relatively young so no one thinks I'm a mid lifer!!!


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> I am the Leaver in my 26 year marriage. I grieve certain things; mainly silly things like bragging rights to say I've been married so many years. I grieve being considered normal and safe because I'm married to my high school sweetheart, the father of all five of my kids.
> 
> But in the end, all of that isn't enough. Maybe it is for some people. I liked everything about my life, except him.
> 
> Leaving him was the best decision I ever made. Period. I am so much happier now!
> 
> OP, just know that there will be collateral damage. It can't be avoided. All five of my kids, who are mostly grown now, are still very much in my life. We have close relationships, however, those relationships were established before I left their dad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why did you leave? are you a cougar?


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## Tasorundo

I don't know if Zanne is a good example. She had a horrible marriage, bad husband, and was having an affair.


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## Starstarfish

I'd say there seems to be a heavy emphasis on your wife bringing you happiness by engaging in the same things as you and liking them the same way you do. Then possibly you need to find something you both enjoy with equal enthusiasm, but that takes effort. 

I myself was in a "mourning my dreams" stage for some time. For me it was partly a medical thing, so I'm going to propose not to be unfair or harsh but honestly - have you considered that this could be some kind of depression? Because the way you describe things, the crushing feelings, the overwhelming nature of it all - that's a bit above level. I would in all seriousness suggest to please consider at least going to your primary doctor and discussing this and see they want to do some work ups or something. I'm -not- saying the feelings aren't legitimate. But - the feelings could be in "hyper mode" but some kind of underlying medical thing. 

Also, when you make your spouse the sole source of your happiness, of your social life, of your dreams, that's placing a huge burden on one person. I did this myself for a long time, I wanted my husband to -make- me happy, I assumed he had to love all the things I did the way I do or he didn't love -me-. And frankly, that's not true. 

He himself likes Christian rock. And I like the top 40, or showtunes, or classic rock, or what I'm in the mood for. And you easily solve that problem, driver picks the music. If it's about concerts, you alternate which music you go to. 

Find a hobby like she has interacting with Church. You need to find your own space and interest so as not to place all that on your couple time, where you should be pursuing mutually enjoyable things that help cement the two of you together. And not have those times be the only time you enjoy your activities, or you'll simply resent her not being into them like you are. Trust me on this, I've been there. 

Regardless of anything else, that's something that if you bring that to another relationship, that's doom making. If you don't have your own space where you pursue things separate from your partner. 

If you want to reconnect emotionally, and that's something you honestly want to pursue then you might need to consider some marriage counseling, and potentially some individual counseling to go with that. But you have to first recognize why you don't have that and want to honestly fix it. Saying your wife has walls is all well and good, but - it might take a professional intervention to address. 

If you just want to hear that being a "Leaver" is fine, well - I can say from my perspective you can leave, but there are problems here that if you don't address them, they aren't going to suddenly and magically go away with a new relationship. And while I'm glad you look young, the fact you have a 22 year old son is probably not going to help convince the ladies you are really 30.


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## Dude007

Tasorundo said:


> She had a horrible marriage, bad husband, and was having an affair.


Whats wrong with this statement.....


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## Dude007

"I myself was in a "mourning my dreams" stage for some time." I would have agreed with this but I did go to my doctor and all was well. Also, I am only upset with the state of my marriage and nothing else, so this seems unlikely.


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## Nomorebeans

What do you mean, "What's wrong with this statement?" You have not been describing a horrible marriage (just an unfulfilling one), a bad wife (just one who doesn't make you happy and that you're not in love with), or an affair you're having.

Fess up, Dude. There is someone you're interested in, isn't there? Maybe nothing physical has happened yet, but you'd like it to? Or you just in general are randy for some Strange?

I know and know of several men IRL who were in long term marriages and left their wives. In not one case were they not at all either interested in or seeing someone else when they left. There may be one or two men here on TAM who really did leave knowing they'd be alone. But that's very rare. My Mom once said long ago "Men don't leave just to be alone. They wait until they have a soft cushion to land on." Many women may be the same, but I know a few women who left with no other prospects simply because they felt they'd rather be alone than stay in their miserable (but not abusive) marriages.


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> What do you mean, "What's wrong with this statement?" You have not been describing a horrible marriage (just an unfulfilling one), a bad wife (just one who doesn't make you happy and that you're not in love with), or an affair you're having.
> 
> Fess up, Dude. There is someone you're interested in, isn't there? Maybe nothing physical has happened yet, but you'd like it to? Or you just in general are randy for some Strange?


These folks are low self-esteem and have zero confidence to set up plan B. I on the other hand am NOT lining up anything, because frankly I wouldn't have to anyway. And who would u get? Someone willing to fling w a married man? No thanks! I'd need time to adjust to being alone anyway. So no fessing up here. I think you are overly JADED my friend.


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## SecondTime'Round

Nomorebeans said:


> What do you mean, "What's wrong with this statement?" You have not been describing a horrible marriage (just an unfulfilling one), a bad wife (just one who doesn't make you happy and that you're not in love with), or an affair you're having.
> 
> Fess up, Dude. There is someone you're interested in, isn't there? Maybe nothing physical has happened yet, but you'd like it to? Or you just in general are randy for some Strange?
> 
> I know and know of several men IRL who were in long term marriages and left their wives. In not one case were they not at all either interested in or seeing someone else when they left. There may be one or two men here on TAM who really did leave knowing they'd be alone. But that's very rare. My Mom once said long ago "Men don't leave just to be alone. They wait until they have a soft cushion to land on." Many women may be the same, but I know a few women who left with no other prospects simply because they felt they'd rather be alone than stay in their miserable (but not abusive) marriages.


I know exactly one man who left a marriage because of unhappiness, and it was totally mutual on both parts. I didn't know him when he was married, but I met him through online dating and we became friends (we live like 10 hours apart). He's told me quite a lot of shameful things he's done in his life and all about his first marriage (he's remarried now) and I think he'd have been truthful about that. So, it does happen, but it is very, very rare!!

Every other divorce I know if has been because of infidelity or abuse. Mostly infidelity.


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## Nomorebeans

Yep. I'll fully own that I'm jaded now. But this is an observation I've made many times in the last 25 years, and I only became jaded starting on February 20 of this year.

Hell, I went to sign the dissolution papers with a notary at my bank I've known for over a year on Monday, and she asked me why we were divorcing, so I told her. She goes, "My husband left his last wife for another woman. Not me!" Old jaded me must have looked at her funny, because she said, "Don't worry - he's a perfect angel now." Yeah, sure he is. Anyway, here's yet another example. Pretty much every person around my age I've told about my divorce has their own story to tell - either that they cheated or were cheated on in a past marriage, or that their parents split up due at least in part to infidelity. It's pretty rampant, so you're a statistical outlier, for sure.


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> Yep. I'll fully own that I'm jaded now. But this is an observation I've made many times in the last 25 years, and I only became jaded starting on February 20 of this year.
> 
> Hell, I went to sign the dissolution papers with a notary at my bank I've known for over a year on Monday, and she asked me why we were divorcing, so I told her. She goes, "My husband left his last wife for another woman. Not me!" Old jaded me must have looked at her funny, because she said, "Don't worry - he's a perfect angel now." Yeah, sure he is. Anyway, here's yet another example. Pretty much every person around my age I've told about my divorce has their own story to tell - either that they cheated or were cheated on in a past marriage, or that their parents split up due at least in part to infidelity. It's pretty rampant, so you're a statistical outlier, for sure.


I would say I'm too analytical to ever find myself in the throws of an affair with all the consequences. I do think it is very rampant though. The question for you ultimately is does this define you or does it become just a small piece of your story?


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## Nomorebeans

Dude007 said:


> I would say I'm too analytical to ever find myself in the throws of an affair with all the consequences. I do think it is very rampant though. The question for you ultimately is does this define you or does it become just a small piece of your story?


I think of myself as the same - too analytical to knowingly do something so wrong considering the consequences. But I'm beginning to think it's genetic - there is an inherent character flaw (or maybe it's a missing gene that many others have that make them revert to a baser, more animal-like self).

As much as I b!tch about the affair here, you would naturally think I'll let it define me. IRL, I've worked very hard to not let that be the case. I vent here to get it all out, because it does obviously still eat away at me. But I'm reaching the point of Acceptance and am really starting to not care so much about anything my STBXH does that does not concern our son directly.

So, what are you going to do, Dude? Do you have a plan? Or are you still waiting for someone here to give you the answer you want that you're not getting?


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## Mr. Nail

Dude 007,
I understand. When I considered walking away. It was not walking to someone else. Just leaving the reminders of What I couldn't have anymore. What I don't understand is that you think you need time to get used to being alone. I feel plenty alone already.
MN


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## Starstarfish

Even if you aren't depressed, that changes nothing about the rest of what I said.

But I and others I think are realizing you don't really want advice. You've already made your decision, what you want is someone to say you are making the right choice.


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## Dude007

Mr. Nail said:


> Dude 007,
> I understand. When I considered walking away. It was not walking to someone else. Just leaving the reminders of What I couldn't have anymore. What I don't understand is that you think you need time to get used to being alone. I feel plenty alone already.
> MN


Funny, I believe to do this right, you have to be legitimately alone for a period of time to be comfortable as just you. Only then after all the past relationships are cleansed can you begin looking for a new relationship. Otherwise, you probably have blind spots(or bad points of interests) and will just take on an even bigger problem with another divorce down the road with NewPerson. Does this make sense?


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## Dude007

Starstarfish said:


> Even if you aren't depressed, that changes nothing about the rest of what I said.
> 
> But I and others I think are realizing you don't really want advice. You've already made your decision, what you want is someone to say you are making the right choice.


Yeah, maybe but I'd like more advice from LEAVERS and their lessons learned. The LEFT on here have shown their colors and seemed to be tainted as they can NOT see from the LEAVERS perspective. The jaded has clouded their ability to see what the LEAVER probably struggles(d) with for all that time they contemplated leaving.


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> Yeah, maybe but I'd like more advice from LEAVERS and their lessons learned. The LEFT on here have shown their colors and seemed to be tainted as they can NOT see from the LEAVERS perspective. The jaded has clouded their ability to see what the LEAVER probably struggles(d) with for all that time they contemplated leaving.


A good friend of mine was the leaver... he is full of life, charm and energy - makes good money, has a lot of fun. His now ex W enjoyed the kind of life partner he provided for a while, but eventually couldn't keep up with him and instead of supporting and accompanying him, just tried to slow him down. He complained that she was a constant nag, depressing to be around, and worse becoming more and more of a pot head to escape her anxiety and depression.

She had also cheated early on in their marriage, before having kids - he never played the victim at all, was willing to walk but was also willing to reconcile if she stepped up her game. Ultimately, after a couple good years and then some bad ones, she didn't step up her game (to his standards) and he grew tired of the effect it was having on him and his kids, so he left.

He never cheated while in the relationship, but certainly didn't wait around after separation to start dating and find a GF. He also paid his ex many thousands of dollars every month for the first 18 months in alimony and child support (even though he was a way more involved father) he made her car payments, house payments, paid her tuition for school, all without complaining... He has been way happier (despite having to sell a few toys to pay for it all).

They recently finalized the divorce, and settled on a much more reasonable monthly payment schedule, His ex W is miserable, depressed and plays nasty every chance she gets, she still thinks she'll win him back and blames his current GF for him leaving (even though he had never even met her before leaving his ex W). My point being that even if you have the best attitude in life there is always a good chance for drama, chaos and fighting post-divorce - even for a guy like my friend who grieves nothing.


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## Starstarfish

I think the difficulty is you can't get that advice in a bottle. Most of the reasons other people were LEAVERS differ greatly from your own reasons. So it's trying to compare apples and oranges. 

I was a LEAVER previously in an abusive relationship. That's a whole different ball of wax. As I said, I was someone who contemplated being a LEAVER or was in a similar relationship funk for some time. 

What someone else left and regretted will depend on their relationship.


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## Dude007

"He never cheated while in the relationship, but certainly didn't wait around after separation to start dating and find a GF" You honestly think this is healthy?


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## Lon

Dude007 said:


> "He never cheated while in the relationship, but certainly didn't wait around after separation to start dating and find a GF" You honestly think this is healthy?


Neither healthy nor unhealthy, but he was fine with where things were at. It wasn't all smooth either, his new GF has her own issues and is working through them with his support, but he is detached enough to not make them his problems (and I think that part is healthy)


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## EnigmaGirl

> I know and know of several men IRL who were in long term marriages and left their wives. In not one case were they not at all either interested in or seeing someone else when they left. There may be one or two men here on TAM who really did leave knowing they'd be alone. But that's very rare. My Mom once said long ago "Men don't leave just to be alone. They wait until they have a soft cushion to land on." Many women may be the same, but I know a few women who left with no other prospects simply because they felt they'd rather be alone than stay in their miserable (but not abusive) marriages.


My now husband was married almost 30 years and left his wife and never cheated on her. He was just miserable and had to get out. The last couple years, she went hardcore religious and her spending habits were out of control...she'd sometimes charge 15k a month on credit cards. They had zero intimate relationship and differed on how to raise the kids. 

He separated 3 times and tried multiple counsellors before finally moving out but he never cheated.

They still talk and basically get along which I admire him for...she is just a strange woman, in my opinion. But I think its unfair to suggest that just because someone can't tolerate a difficult marriage anymore that they're a cheater.

I left my marriage and honestly, I was truly looking forward to being single. I wasn't really fantasizing about other men at all. I fantasized about coming home after work to a clean house and a sink without a pile of dishes in it. I fantasized about having things in my space, my way...and having a peaceful life.

I don't think its at fair to assume this OP is cheating. Its very possible that he's just miserable in his marriage.


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## EnigmaGirl

> Yeah, maybe but I'd like more advice from LEAVERS and their lessons learned.


Well, I'm an unrepentant leaver. Divorce is the best gift I ever gave myself and my children.

Here's my lessons learned:

1. Get legal advice before you make any decision. 
2. Get ready for custody battle. Start making sure you're spending lots of time with your kids.
3. Divorce will be far, far, far more brutal than you're expecting and they'll be consequences you can't foresee with kids, family members, finances, legal challenges, etc, etc...so get a support system in place.
4. ALWAYS leave your kids out of your mess...even if their mother doesn't. Never be one of those idiot divorced parents that involve their kids in their marital issues and use their kid against their ex-spouse....it always backfires on the person who does it.
5. Be as fair and as reasonable as you can be. Don't turn into an evil vengeful jerk....even if she does. Later, you'll feel a lot better about the whole thing if you don't stoop to a cruel level.
6. In any divorce action, your focus should be on your children and how to transition them and co-parent with your spouse in the least traumatic way possible (i.e. My ex and I live a mile apart. I wanted to move but decided that it would be a bad thing to do to my kids.)
7. Take care of yourself. The stress, the guilt, the worry, the running around during the divorce process can be very trying at times. Take nature walks, eat well, sleep well and have someone you can talk to when you need to vent.
8. Find a lawyer who listens to you and offers reasonable solutions that are negotiation based. Stay away from shark lawyers who create conflict so they can bill you for things you're going to end up compromising on anyway.
9. You will not get what you want in divorce. Accept that early. You'll make compromises you are not expecting.
10. Always be polite to your stbx but limit communication to the necessary. It takes time to get into the habit of not talking as much to your ex and the earlier you start, the better. Once the divorce starts, only use verifiable methods like email and keep it short and polite.
11. Respect her as a mother and be kind and compromise whenever you can....hopefully it will invoke the same pattern of behavior from her.

And last thing....understand that you're not going to get out of this unscarred. While you have every right to get out of a bad marriage if you're unhappy....you have to recognize that rights come with consequences. You don't EVER get to leave a long-term marriage with kids without dealing with some serious second thoughts about the action you're taking. 

That's why its so important that you stop trying to get validation from others to make this decision. You're the one that needs to feel ok with yourself for doing this. If you're feeling extreme guilt or selfishness or anything else like that...you need to first figure out if there's something you can be working on to save your marriage.

You should only leave when you know you've tried everything and its truly over for you and leaving is the only thing you can do.


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## Dude007

So maybe it's the "marriage framework" that causes the problem? Idk maybe it just implies too deep of a commitment. Idk grasping at straws w all the heartache


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> Honestly Dude? Anymore I think marriage is a crap shoot. There are so many variables. Some people change over the years; some don't. Maybe some discover their true self - who they have been all along, but they kept it deep inside for whatever reason...unresolved childhood issues, etc.
> 
> For me, I think it will always be something I failed at and I let a lot of people down. That is what I am working through now. I feel like I'm constantly defending myself and my decision to divorce, and yet, my thoughts have never been clearer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep, its framework of marriage in the world of texting, internet, dual income 50 hour work weeks, long life spans, distractions, etc. The fundamental marriage is probably non-existent for the most part. So rather than cheating or grieving in the dark, why not just be open and honest with spouse and everyone(in-laws/out-laws/kids/friends) if its not working because, both parties have changed tremendously, needs have changed, lets confront this with respect and dignity. Thats the only way you protect your mental health and your spouse/children. A twenty year marriage that ended in a safe, transparent methodology is a good thing!! Make sense?


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## Mike6211

Dude007 said:


> I am only upset with the state of my marriage and nothing else


or should that be "I am only feeling upset with the state of my marriage and I'm not aware that that upset has anything to do with anything else"?

By analogy with a patient who says to his doctor "Doc, I'm only upset with this pain in my shoulder and nothing else" and the doc says "well, you need to be upset with something else, becauase you have heart problems. What you're experiencing in your shoulder is called 'referred pain'."




Dude007 said:


> ... I believe to [walk away] right, you have to be legitimately alone for a period of time to be comfortable as just you. Only then after all the past relationships are cleansed can you begin looking for a new relationship. Otherwise, you probably have blind spots (or bad points of interests) and will just take on an even bigger problem with another divorce down the road with NewPerson. Does this make sense?


Sure does.

Now, about this "period of time alone to be comfortable as just you". Deida mentions somewhere 'rebooting' himself by going away alone at intervals to <cough> meditate </cough>, a full month as I recall on one occasion. And coming back *just knowing* whether he's full of beans to launch into the next stage of his marriage or to part with sadness (rather than with resentment, irritation or anger).

Now, we know you don't 'do' meditation Dude, so you'd have to find your own take on time away. Before that though, there are a couple of words you used I'd like to pick up on:

'Legitimate' - what's with this idea that you need to part first to make the period of me-time 'legitimate'? Why can't you just tell your W that you're having some 'me time' away? It's not a 'trial separation' or to 'find yourself' or to 'solve the problem' - although the second and third would no doubt be welcome if they occur. It's just 'me time' away - no more and no less.

'Past Relationships'. Plural. Sounds as if you may have some left-over grieving to do for relationship(s) before your wife? That would sort of tie in with your self-admitted putting the emotional closeness aspect of your relationship with your W 'on hold' in its early days. You haven't mentioned your previous marriage at all - the dog that hasn't barked in the night on this thread? Any possibility of some 'referred pain' there? Or before that even?


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## Dude007

Zanne said:


> Haha, it's not simple! That's your analytical side coming through. There are human emotions involved. Sometimes entitlement is at play. I would say it would be rare for two people to mutually agree that things are not working out and then they amicably part ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Those damn emotions...


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## FlaGirl

Dude007 said:


> I believe she knows I think a lot of her. The issue is there was never really a "fall in love" moment. I'm sure it sounds trite on here for some of the folks but we cared a lot about each other but even in the beginning it seemed like we were just good friends and excellent biz partners. Yes there was sex but it was never really passionate. I considered not marrying her initially but because she was such a great person, I just let the lack of passion go. That was a mistake I'm finding out. The problem is I'm grieving the loss of dreams of passionate/close/intimate marriage I never had. I cant stop it, the grief is taking me where it wants to go. Does this make sense? thank you for your response.


Same boat now! I totally get it, absolutely. Sounds like you are in a better place since this post. I am getting there, having my grief swings now, but more on the upside knowing my truth and plan to follow through.


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## Nomorebeans

I would just say beware, Dude. Your marriage sounds a lot like how mine was, minus us differing in opinion about religion, politics, child rearing, and spending. We agreed on pretty much everything and laughed all the time - no arguments, ever.

He left me for an OW (I know you're not cheating - just saying this about him) because he hated that we weren't passionately, intimately, physically in love with each other. The thing is, we both have intimacy issues - I from being a victim of CSA, he, no one knows why. I wanted to do MC/ST - he wouldn't hear of it. His intimacy issues ain't gonna go away just because he found someone who initially threw herself at him. Recently he admitted that while he (at first) got the 20% he'd been missing from me with her, now he's missing the other 80% he had with me. And doesn't even want to be intimate with her much anymore, because she irritates him on every other level.

As we've discussed before, be sure you get all your own crap sorted out before you start up with someone else. Give it as much time as it takes. It's much less stressful just being alone, IMO, than being with someone for selfish, userous reasons, only to have to dump them and deal with the guilt of that, while still not understanding what it is you really want and can realistically get from a romantic partnership.


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## Dude007

Nomorebeans said:


> I would just say beware, Dude. Your marriage sounds a lot like how mine was, minus us differing in opinion about religion, politics, child rearing, and spending. We agreed on pretty much everything and laughed all the time - no arguments, ever.
> 
> He left me for an OW (I know you're not cheating - just saying this about him) because he hated that we weren't passionately, intimately, physically in love with each other. The thing is, we both have intimacy issues - I from being a victim of CSA, he, no one knows why. I wanted to do MC/ST - he wouldn't hear of it. His intimacy issues ain't gonna go away just because he found someone who initially threw herself at him. Recently he admitted that while he (at first) got the 20% he'd been missing from me with her, now he's missing the other 80% he had with me. And doesn't even want to be intimate with her much anymore, because she irritates him on every other level.
> 
> As we've discussed before, be sure you get all your own crap sorted out before you start up with someone else. Give it as much time as it takes. It's much less stressful just being alone, IMO, than being with someone for selfish, userous reasons, only to have to dump them and deal with the guilt of that, while still not understanding what it is you really want and can realistically get from a romantic partnership.


Oh, I get it trust me, thats why cake eating seems so tempting. I really think he lost a good one in you and he will be kicking himself a LONG TIME for that!!!!


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