# Advice for A Marriage Without Intimacy



## oceantracks

Been with my wife 34 years.

Until about 2 years ago, had a great sex life, even though we're older (she's 55, I'm 67). She's very attractive, and we've always been close.
She's not a hopeless romantic by any means, she's sweet but was raised in a less than loving household, in that I don't think they were particularly affectionate parents. 

So though she looks like a model, she's on the rugged side. Like, she likes Mustangs, I like Vettes. I like pop, she likes Metallica. She's very good with our kids, and does a lot for me, though to me I do a lot more for her in many ways, most of which I think she overlooks.

Trouble started when menopause hit. First it was a lot of mood swings, a lot of arguments, etc. Then the intimacy became less and less frequent. I cannot begin to describe how many excuses I've heard. She does live in some severe pain, and needs operations on a knee, and her cervical spine (lots of headaches, lots of neck pain, etc.) But she still has energy to cut the grass (she likes it, all things to do with yard work), she drives to see our grandkids a lot, she is very active. 
Her excuses of sex being painful right now, combined with her admitted loss of libido (I swear, Brad Pitt could walk in the room and there would be no interest). After the surgeries she's agreed to go to a new female doctor for any solutions to the libido problem. She gets hormones from a patch, so the worst of menopause (night sweats, mood changes) seem to be under control.

But we have been intimate about 3 times in a year. The latest being about six weeks ago. She promises that won't happen again, and we will be more regular, but of course that doesn't happen. I get fed up, I don't need a roommate, and that's what I have. She thinks I'm overreacting. I say "You think that because you have no drive anymore for intimacy. I still do." And round it goes. I've tried saying nothing for weeks, and I've tried talking calmly about it. Nothing is changing. I'm convinced that if I never brought it up again, neither would she.

We had a terrific intimate life for decades. It just stopped. I don't know what to do. Wait it out I guess, although if I were a millionaire and could afford a divorce, I would consider it. I don't want to have an affair. And we are both Christians and have prayed about it. Again, nothing is changing. 

Any advice appreciated, especially from women who might understand her part. As far as intimacy goes, I feel like I'm 19, and she feels like..."Intimacy ....what's that?" 

Tough situation. Thanks for any input.

Tom


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## Spicy

Hey Tom,

Welcome to TAM.

Yes this sounds like a difficult situation. I just had a couple of questions. 

What happens if you initiate? What does she do?
Is she opposed to just pleasing you through something other than PIV (since it is painful)? If she is, why? If she isn’t, why isn’t she doing it?
Why exactly is she waiting so long to talk to her gyno about treating her for this?

I know very little about menopause and why it would make sex painful (crossing fingers that doesn’t happen to me, regardless, she should be looking for a solution and doing her best to keep you satisfied in the meantime.


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## WorkingWife

Did you say she says that sex is painful? Believe her. Because sometimes with menopause comes really bad pain with sex. My OBGYN explained that part of the body literally starts to atrophy and shrink and without intervention after a few years the woman ends up with a vagina the size of a 5 year olds. She says wives try to tough it out but at some point they just give up and start refusing. 

Unfortunately -- you don't use it, you lose it. I have had extreme pain with sex post menopause. Like a knife being stabbed into me. My friend said suddenly it's like having sex with Edward Scissorhands, and there's not sexual response down there -- it just kind of goes numb.

Plus, with the hormone changes, the desire is gone and when the man keeps pushing for it, the woman can develop an aversion where the thought of sex is terrifying/abhorrent.

BUT THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN DO:
1. Talk to the Dr. that gave her the hormone patch about vaginal estrogen. There are creams and rings that put topical estrogen right there, it's totally safe, and helps the vagina with dryness and thinning of the skin, loss of elasticity, etc. It can take time to work though so be patient.

2. Ask the Dr. about checking her testosterone levels. Women are supposed to have SOME testosterone and this can REALLY help with sex drive and possibly other age related issues like losing muscle tone. If this Dr. won't do it call around and find one who is open to the idea.

3. Understand that since you had a lot of good years of sex, your wife is going through something REAL. That doesn't mean it's okay for her to neglect your need for sex, but maybe you can make it feel safer/less threatening for her. You can suggest you two "play around" but you won't penetrate her unless she suddenly wants you to. There are plenty of things you can do for her that will feel good and safe -- even just a back rub -- and there are plenty of ways the two of you can get you off without actual intercourse. I would be frank with her and say you understand her body and feelings about sex have changed, but this is important to you and you know that you two can find a solution that will work for both of you. The current situation is painful to you, you are not happy in the marriage, and it's not something you can live with forever.

4. If you get her playing around again and enjoying it, try using a vibrator on her. My friend who made the Edward Scissorhands comment said it was like that part of her died - no sensation/response. But her husband got a vibrator and she was very resistant to the idea but once she tried it, well, let's just say "Buzz Buzz" has really helped. 

Another friend who was a total sex fiend experienced the same problems, her Dr. could not even give her an exam because her vagina had become too small to get a speculum in. She was not seeing anyone and her Dr. said she had to masturbate to bring that part of her back to life. She said it didn't have to be penetration, a vibrator on the outside would work because it stimulated the area which gets more blood flow down there. I know the same friend has a good sex life today.

5. Explore what her complaints and grievances are with an open mind. Yes, menopause definitely affects emotions. It can be debilitating. But usually there is some truth behind even the craziest complaints. I think women tend to be TOO NICE when they're NOT having hormonal issues, then when the hormones hit, their ability to stuff disappointment and resentment down and ignore it are stripped away. She may be over reacting to things but that doesn't mean those things aren't important to her and bothering her just like the lack of sex is important to you. When women are resentful, they do NOT want sex with you.

Good luck. I believe this can definitely be turned around.



oceantracks said:


> Been with my wife 34 years.
> 
> Until about 2 years ago, had a great sex life, even though we're older (she's 55, I'm 67). She's very attractive, and we've always been close.
> She's not a hopeless romantic by any means, she's sweet but was raised in a less than loving household, in that I don't think they were particularly affectionate parents.
> 
> So though she looks like a model, she's on the rugged side. Like, she likes Mustangs, I like Vettes. I like pop, she likes Metallica. She's very good with our kids, and does a lot for me, though to me I do a lot more for her in many ways, most of which I think she overlooks.
> 
> Trouble started when menopause hit. First it was a lot of mood swings, a lot of arguments, etc. Then the intimacy became less and less frequent. I cannot begin to describe how many excuses I've heard. She does live in some severe pain, and needs operations on a knee, and her cervical spine (lots of headaches, lots of neck pain, etc.) But she still has energy to cut the grass (she likes it, all things to do with yard work), she drives to see our grandkids a lot, she is very active.
> Her excuses of sex being painful right now, combined with her admitted loss of libido (I swear, Brad Pitt could walk in the room and there would be no interest). After the surgeries she's agreed to go to a new female doctor for any solutions to the libido problem. She gets hormones from a patch, so the worst of menopause (night sweats, mood changes) seem to be under control.
> 
> But we have been intimate about 3 times in a year. The latest being about six weeks ago. She promises that won't happen again, and we will be more regular, but of course that doesn't happen. I get fed up, I don't need a roommate, and that's what I have. She thinks I'm overreacting. I say "You think that because you have no drive anymore for intimacy. I still do." And round it goes. I've tried saying nothing for weeks, and I've tried talking calmly about it. Nothing is changing. I'm convinced that if I never brought it up again, neither would she.
> 
> We had a terrific intimate life for decades. It just stopped. I don't know what to do. Wait it out I guess, although if I were a millionaire and could afford a divorce, I would consider it. I don't want to have an affair. And we are both Christians and have prayed about it. Again, nothing is changing.
> 
> Any advice appreciated, especially from women who might understand her part. As far as intimacy goes, I feel like I'm 19, and she feels like..."Intimacy ....what's that?"
> 
> Tough situation. Thanks for any input.
> 
> Tom


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## EleGirl

You need to find a way to let your wife know that this is not ok. Either she works to get the sex life going again or you might be filing for divorce.

There are several good books on amazon about this topic... sexless marriage. Here is a link to one of the better ones. The idea is that the two of you need to read the book. You might also benefit from finding a good marriage counselor who is also a sex therapist.

*The Sex-Starved Marriage: Boosting Your Marriage Libido: A Couple's Guide*


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## oceantracks

Thanks all.

Yes it is painful for her, last time we were together (weeks back)...between the vaginal dryness (yes we do lubricate but it wasn't THAT helpful) and the pain she's in with the neck...and knee, it's apparently not very enjoyable.
The thing is, you can spend 15 minutes talking to her about this and everything she says ...kind of....makes sense. She shrugs it off and says "It's not forever for heaven's sake, I just need to get out of pain with the vertebrae surgery and feel better. It's hard to think of sex between lack of desire during menopause AND pain." Swears she loves me would have no idea what life would be like without us together, blah blah. I tell her I just don't want to be a roommate. 

She says "Well we need to make some time together (we have grown kids all over the house lol)...."......I kid her sometimes and say "I booked a hotel for the night by the beach" and she says "REALLY?" and I say "just kidding." She swears she'd like an evening out at a nice restaurant and all, but by day's end she's ready for bed most of the time. We are on totally different schedules, I'm a late night person, she gets up at 5.

To make it worse, for awhile, I had a pinched nerve. Could only sleep on my back. Started snoring. So I moved down to the couch so she could sleep. The nerve problem went away, now I can sleep on my side again with no snoring. But I'm STILL on the couch. It's like we got used to it. She says "Well just come up, you don't have to sleep down there" but it's not overly convincing. I know I have to start sleeping up there again but I'm at the point now where I feel like I don't want to sleep with her until we are normal again. I realize this is probably making it worse.

We are very close, we fight like cats and dogs at times but always make up. We've taken marriage quizzes and both of us score high on "dedication to your marriage" sections. But frankly I think she's being extremely selfish. She knows how I feel. She says she understands, and squirms out of every discussion of the matter with "Well OK lets dedicate ourselves to more time together" etc, but it doesn't happen. And if it all comes from me, I feel like I'm pushing (and I am I guess).

I liked girls in Kindergarten for heaven's sake. She knew intimacy was important to me from day one. It was to her too, for many years. It's been the last two that things have been getting worse and worse. Like I said, I think maybe 3 times in the last year. MAYBE four. I swear once a week and I'd be in heaven. Once every TWO weeks would be fine. But once every few months or so, is not making it. I'm on edge all the time, I see her doing physical things that if she was in that much pain, hey she could be intimate. I have even told her that in a kidding way, and she'll say "Its not the same, you have to raise your legs during sex, it's unbelievably uncomfortable, etc." Hey guess what, so am I. Unbelievably uncomfortable. When this happens you feel undesirable, you don't feel loved, no matter what they tell you. Yes she'll come up and give hugs once or twice a day (kiss? you kidding?)......it's just the opposite of how we always used to be.

If I had a way of getting out of this (I don't) at this point I probably would, though I feel so bonded to her I'd be lost without her, like she says she would be. So it's pretty horrid all around. Meanwhile, I'm taking a lot of long showers. Like a kid. 

I've read other women post about this, and they say "don't push it" ...."go on with your life" and eventually things will get better. I'm just not cut out for a loveless marriage. 

Tom


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## Casual Observer

There are a number of Christian books about the role of sex in Marriage, most pointing out that it’s a gift from God that’s not to be taken lightly. You might start by having her read something like “Awaken Love.” You might also point out that sleeping on the couch is one step towards leaving.


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## Young at Heart

oceantracks said:


> Been with my wife 34 years.....
> 
> Trouble started when menopause hit. First it was a lot of mood swings, a lot of arguments, etc. Then the intimacy became less and less frequent. I cannot begin to describe how many excuses I've heard. She does live in some severe pain, and needs operations on a knee, and her cervical spine (lots of headaches, lots of neck pain, etc.) But she still has energy to cut the grass (she likes it, all things to do with yard work), she drives to see our grandkids a lot, she is very active.
> *Her excuses of sex being painful right now*, combined with her admitted loss of libido (I swear, Brad Pitt could walk in the room and there would be no interest). After the surgeries she's agreed to go to a new female doctor for any solutions to the libido problem. She gets hormones from a patch, so the worst of menopause (night sweats, mood changes) seem to be under control.
> 
> But we have been intimate about 3 times in a year. The latest being about six weeks ago. She promises that won't happen again, and we will be more regular, but of course that doesn't happen. *I get fed up*, I don't need a roommate, and that's what I have. *She thinks I'm overreacting*. I say "You think that because you have no drive anymore for intimacy. I still do." And round it goes. I've tried saying nothing for weeks, and I've tried talking calmly about it. Nothing is changing. I'm convinced that if I never brought it up again, neither would she.....
> 
> Thanks for any input.
> 
> Tom


Tom, I feel your pain, Now married almost 48 years. About 10 years ago, I was in a sex starved marriage. I was incredibly frustrated and angry.

Being married to someone a long time they can know what you really mean based on body language, facial expressions, tone of voice and what you will not talk about. You may have felt you kept your mouth shut, but I assure you you communicated very loudly your feelings to your wife.

Also if your wife tells you she is in pain and sex is painful, believe her. To do otherwise is insulting if she really is in pain.

I would also echo any book by MW Davis. For me the Sex Starved Marriage helped me. Also, Chapman's 5 Languages of Love and Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy opened my eyes. I finally figured out that I was part of the problem, in that the more she refused sex either the angrier I got (and she knew it) or the more pressure she felt I was putting on her for sex.

I read just about every relationship book I could get my hands on. I learned that I had to really forgive her so completely that she knew I had forgiven her. I needed to apologize to her for what I had done to hurt her (via being angry and pressuring her). I also need to change myself and fine things that made me happy and gave me feelings of self confidence and accomplishment (MW Davis and Glover refer to this as getting a life). I also had to accept that my self worth was not determined by her sexual desire for me. Further, you can't change your wife, only she can change herself. However as MW Davis in her books points out you can change the dynamic in your relationship by changing yourself and that will require her to either ignore the change in you or change the way she deals with you (her change if there is one maybe better or worse, but it will be her decision) If she does change you can encourage those changes she makes that you like by giving positive reinforcement. 

Things really changed hen she started asking about the books I was constantly reading and noting the changes I was making in my life and the way I treated her. Ultimately we got marriage counseling from a great nationally recognized sex therapist, who helped save our marriage.

Good luck. Take the first step in changing the dynamics in your marriage in a way that might save it.

And yes we are now having sex twice a week most weeks, which is is far better than the 6 month dry spell before we started sex therapy marriage counseling.


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## MattMatt

@oceantracks next time REALLY book that hotel room. And take it from there.

Your life sounds like mine, so I know where you are coming from.


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## In Absentia

Young at Heart said:


> I learned that I had to really forgive her so completely that she knew I had forgiven her. I needed to apologize to her for what I had done to hurt her (via being angry and pressuring her).


Interesting... I have done that for the last 10 years, to no avail. When the time to withdraw sex came (menopause accomplished, kids left the house), my wife did exactly that. It transpires it was too late and she "faked" it for me for the last 10 years. We are separating now. 

Unfortunately, I have no advice, because what I did didn't work. What @Young at Heart says is very useful, but you need a "compliant" wife, otherwise it's just a waste of time and you will have to wait a few more years to find out. Personally, I'm heartbroken, but I have accepted it. What my wife says makes sense and she has mental issues... so, it's a double whammy for me. I wish I could turn the clock back, but I can't. Now I'm trying to find a way to live a separate life whilst supporting a soon to be ex wife with mental issues... I was dreaming of retiring together by the sea... :frown2:


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## notmyjamie

MattMatt said:


> @oceantracks next time REALLY book that hotel room. And take it from there.
> 
> Your life sounds like mine, so I know where you are coming from.


I agree 100% It sounds like she would really enjoy something like this. And it would be a great way to segue yourself back into her bed as you'd sleep in the same bed at the hotel. Make sure to ask for a king sized bed. Once you get back home, just go to bed in your bed with your wife from then on. Sleeping apart will only make things worse.

Once you're at the beach, wine and dine her. Give her some tylenol or whatever pain med she takes for her back (something non narcotic though as that can dull her sensations in other areas) Give her a nice massage as part of foreplay to help loosen everything up and feel better. Heck, give her another one afterwards to help her feel better then too.

Then, experiment with different positions that will work for her. For some back pain missionary is the absolute worst thing you can do. Google good sexual positions for back pain and tons of information will come up. 

It sounds like she loves you a lot but can't figure out how to bring intimacy back that doesn't involve pain. So do some research for her...good positioning with pillows can do wonders. Tell her you need to feel that intimacy with her again...it's not just about getting off, it's about being together, strengthening your bond, etc. 

Good luck!!!!!


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## wilson

Sex or not, it sounds like you guys are essentially roommates anyway. If you have opposite schedules and are filling your days with your own activities, you are essentially like roommates. Maybe before you were roommates who had sex because you both wanted sex, but now she doesn't have that need and she's not coming to you to get it satisfied. There's a chance she'll never get back to the innate desire she had before. What is probably needed now is to build up a more emotionally intimate relationship so she feels more loved and loving towards you. That can make her want to feel closer to you, and sex would be a bigger part of that.

You mentioned kidding about the hotel room, but doing that kind of stuff for real is what is needed. Make her feel like you love her for who she is and that she's the most important person to you. Don't do it as a manipulation tactic to get her into bed. Rather, show her that your heart loves her. Right now she probably is feeling that the only reason you want her is for a way to satisfy your sexual needs. That's not the case, but it may seem like that from her perspective.

Before getting into any heavy sex discussions, work at building a solid emotional connection with her. You want her love for you to bloom. Show interest in her interests. Really listen and engage when she's talking to you. Be more of her best friend than roommate. Engage in more non-sexual intimacy, like cuddling, hand-holding, warm hugs when she comes home, etc. Make her feel loved without feeling like she's only around for sex. You may do all that and she may never regain her desire like before, but she will be much more eager and enthusiastic when you initiate if she has a stronger emotional connection to you.


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## In Absentia

wilson said:


> Before getting into any heavy sex discussions, work at building a solid emotional connection with her. You want her love for you to bloom. Show interest in her interests. Really listen and engage when she's talking to you. Be more of her best friend than roommate. Engage in more non-sexual intimacy, like cuddling, hand-holding, warm hugs when she comes home, etc. Make her feel loved without feeling like she's only around for sex. You may do all that and she may never regain her desire like before, but she will be much more eager and enthusiastic when you initiate if she has a stronger emotional connection to you.



This is what my therapist is actually telling me... we will explore this route, although I'm a touch pessimistic, since my wife told me she doesn't love me anymore. But I guess she said that to keep me away, if I only want sex from her (which is not true). Seems to me that your wife still loves you, so you can build on it...


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## Spicy

Book a romantic weekend at the beach, pronto dude!

And get your buns back in your bed. You are a big part of this problem, fix what you control!


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## EleGirl

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together doing things that you both really enjoy?


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## Casual Observer

So here's another thought. You may need a crisis to wake her up. Something that you just can't get past. Not suggesting that you manufacture one, but in my case, things were not in a good place until things got really, really bad when I discovered her old diaries and read something that threw me into a huge tailspin, potentially tossing a 42 year relationship down the tubes.

Ultimately, she needs to consider what life would be like without you in it. She needs to KNOW that you've entertained such thoughts. At the same time, she needs to know this is not something you want to do, and you're willing to go to extremes to save your relationship.

It's... complicated. My relationship was going in two directions at once. There was this heavy sword hanging over us that she refused to deal with, while at the same time I was doing everything to show her how much I loved her, taking care of laundry that needed to be put away (never done that before), making the bed every single day (never done that before), doing the dishes every night (never done that before) and basically doing everything possible to make her life easier. I was there for her. She'd say "You don't have to do that." I did it not because I "had" to, but because I wanted to. I bought flower arrangements each week and would take one or two out of the arrangement each day and place on the bed.

And I kept it up. Week after week. Month after month. This is how much I love her. Initially she thought it was a short-term thing. That feeling changed over time. She FINALLY realized hey, this guy has changed, for me. She resists change fiercely, reflexively. I've mentioned elsewhere it's likely part of a privacy thing for her. An inner world that she feels a need to protect and not share with me. But she finally cracked, a bit of an epiphany, and I believe things are better between us now than any time in the past 40 years. 

But first she had to believe in three things.
- The possibility that I could leave
- The positive change that came when I altered my thinking and actively looked for ways to be more helpful and closer to her
- That she had both the power and responsibility to improve and save our marriage, and that it was worth saving.

You mentioned the weekend at the beach. I took my wife to a dinner theater. She had a great time. 

Here's something else you can do, that's made a big difference for us. I started doing massage on her, every night. To some extent you can think of the closeness that can bring as similar to losing inhibitions when having too much to drink. You get to spend some time in relaxed conversation. She opened up about a lot of things in her life in a non-defensive manner. Very unusual for her. And yes, it tended to lead to sex, in a natural way. But it can't be something where she assumes that's what's going to happen. In fact, it might not be a bad idea, if you're comfortable doing so, taking care of yourself first. 

Sorry this is a bit long-winded. The good news is that our issues were 40 years in the making. You've got just a few. Her memories of better times can't be that far removed. Best of luck to you!


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## farsidejunky

@MEM2020

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks

You staying on the couch comes across as peevish - not attractive. Discounting her pain comes across as insensitive and selfish. Saying you would divorce if you could afford it says she is good for one thing. 

I don't think you want to portray yourself as an insensitive oaf. You've had a great marriage and want to reclaim that part of your marriage; but, you're going about this in the wrong way. Stop yammering at her and actively learn how to get some intimacy that will satisfy you until she has her surgeries. After her pain is managed, you can revisit the PIV issue. In the meantime, stop making her feel like a piece of meat.


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## notmyjamie

If she's having pain with intercourse even with lubricants, she needs to see her doctor. There are prescription creams that can help way more than commercial lubricants. You can gently remind her that she's now in a use it or lose situation. The longer she goes without intercourse, the more her tissues will atrophy making it even more painful as time goes on.


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## oceantracks

EleGirl said:


> How many hours a week do the two of you spend together doing things that you both really enjoy?


Not a lot.

It's a weird situation, as we are both home all day as I'm lucky enough to work from home. So sometimes we'll both jump in the car and go odd places, but not for any kind of fun, just...up to the store, whatever. Once in awhile a quick (but not fancy) dinner out. So we are around each other all day. 

We both pitch in on house duties. 

She's not, as I said, an overly touchy feely person. But she's not unapproachable. I mean, this morning she came up and said "Hi hon, give me a hug" that kind of thing. It's just...I'm not even sure she gets it, really. She says she's really happy when we look at our life and remember other places we live...she just said yesterday "I really like this time we're in if it weren't for the pain stuff I'm dealing with..."....it's either that she's oblivious or just wants to avoid the subject. She has even said "You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you." 

Yeah, that and 5.00 will get me a Starbucks.

I don't know. I think just concentrating on myself is the only road I have. Everything else presents itself as complaining. It's a crappy way to live frankly. I don't think I should have to, and yes she's aware of what the Bible says about withholding yourselves from one another. She doesn't have a clear answer. I think she thinks she's not doing anything consciously, it's just the circumstances of pain, and not feeling desire ...for any man...right now. She said she'll go to a top female doctor we found (who is two months out on appointments). Who knows.

I do appreciate all the input, especially input based on similar circumstances. Thanks much.


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## MEM2020

Tom,
Your reaction to chronic rejection is as normal as it is destructive. 

If sex is physically painful for her, she’s going to avoid it. People avoid pain. If your sexual routine was mostly/entirely missionary style intercourse, that makes the challenge bigger. 

In any marriage, the two hardest questions to answer are also the most important: 
1. Who do you love more? Yourself or your partner. 
2. Who does your partner love more, themself or you?

How do you think she perceives your desire to have sex - despite the fact that it hurts her?

Are you open to a sexual routine that for now excludes intercourse?




oceantracks said:


> Not a lot.
> 
> It's a weird situation, as we are both home all day as I'm lucky enough to work from home. So sometimes we'll both jump in the car and go odd places, but not for any kind of fun, just...up to the store, whatever. Once in awhile a quick (but not fancy) dinner out. So we are around each other all day.
> 
> We both pitch in on house duties.
> 
> She's not, as I said, an overly touchy feely person. But she's not unapproachable. I mean, this morning she came up and said "Hi hon, give me a hug" that kind of thing. It's just...I'm not even sure she gets it, really. She says she's really happy when we look at our life and remember other places we live...she just said yesterday "I really like this time we're in if it weren't for the pain stuff I'm dealing with..."....it's either that she's oblivious or just wants to avoid the subject. She has even said "You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you."
> 
> Yeah, that and 5.00 will get me a Starbucks.
> 
> I don't know. I think just concentrating on myself is the only road I have. Everything else presents itself as complaining. It's a crappy way to live frankly. I don't think I should have to, and yes she's aware of what the Bible says about withholding yourselves from one another. She doesn't have a clear answer. I think she thinks she's not doing anything consciously, it's just the circumstances of pain, and not feeling desire ...for any man...right now. She said she'll go to a top female doctor we found (who is two months out on appointments). Who knows.
> 
> I do appreciate all the input, especially input based on similar circumstances. Thanks much.


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## Affaircare

@oceantracks,

It's funny--I am the lady sort of in your wife's situation, in that I'm 57yo and past menopause. It really DOES change things. I mean, there is a lot less sensation, and even though I can be moist at times, it's nothing like it used to be! Some things that used to work, aren't unpleasant but don't work the same way--some things don't work at all like they used to! Then you add in just the general weirdness of getting older--aches and pains and tiredness--and it can feel discouraging. I miss the days I used to be a firecracker in bed. Now I'm more like a candle maybe  

But there are a couple things that stand out to me in what you've written. These are all things that YOU can change:

1) If it were me, I would be really upset and sad that you got over your pinched nerve deal and never came back to bed. It comes off a litle like "Well if you aren't going to have sex with me, I'm not going to sleep with you." I'd recommend just examining yourself and your reasons for still being on the couch. If you're using it to punish her, you really need to work that out. My rule is that we never, ever go to bed separately, so figure this out and get back in the bed. 

2) If she is experiencing pain, and she says she is so believe her, what other things could you two do that are physically intimate but not painful? For example, what's gonna happen the day you can't get a woody? That's it? Physical closeness is over? I think as we get older, we all have to make adjustments so that we can continue to make love to our partner as long as we're both alive. But making love isn't only PIV. It could be oral, manual, horizontal, vertical, mechanical...whatever physical way works FOR BOTH OF YOU. So not only would I recommend looking at or trying other "positions" but maybe also opening up to the possibility of other physical options. Like...well to be blunt, how about kissing each other? Do you kiss? Do you french kiss? Do you make out like school-kids? Why not? If you don't, make a date and go do that! Make sense? In other words look at it as being intimate with someone you love in some sort of physical way--not PIV sex only. 

3) You're both home but don't spend time together. She says she wants a dinner at a nice restaurant but the two of you don't go. You joke about getting a hotel room but don't do it. I'm not harping on you--I'm just pointing out that she has made it clear that she'd like to spend time with you doing personal, loving things, but it's not getting done. DO IT! Here's the thing--spoken as a lady--when my Beloved Hubby makes the effort to have coffee with me every morning, and lunch on the phone every day, and dinner together every night I know that's his way of saying I am important to him. When he makes dinner, yep it unwinds him but it's also his way of taking care of me. When he takes me out places, it's his way of showing me off. When we take the time to talk and share, deeper than "how was your day?" I know that is his way of loving and sharing himself with me. So if he stopped doing all that, what would it say to me? I'm not important to him. He doesn't care. He doesn't think I'm worth showing off. He doesn't love. I'm not worth sharing himself with.  

This may be the kind of message you are giving your wife by being home together all day but spending no time together. Is that what you want to communicate to her? You say you don't want a roommate, but are you treating her like one? If so, stop it. Treat her like a lover!

Now, it sounds like she's like me--I grew up on a farm and I'm fluffy but I'm tough. I like working and stuff doesn't gross me out and I'm not utterly gushy day-to-day (although I have written poetry to the right fella). But if my Beloved Hubby's actions were communicating to me a general lackadaisical disinterest, I'd be discouraged! I'd feel like "He doesn't care about me and only wants me for the one thing!" So if this is NOT what you want your wife to feel like, just think about ways that are "you" but that also communicate to her that you LIKE her...that she is IMPORTANT to you and INTERESTING. Purposefully have some fun with her--like when was the last time you took her to a concert? or a baseball game? Fun builds friendship which builds caring with builds love which builds wanting to be intimate (not just physically but in all ways). 

4) "I really like this time we're in if it weren't for the pain stuff I'm dealing with..."....it's either that she's oblivious or just wants to avoid the subject. She has even said "You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you." I'll be blunt--it sounds to me like she is not even close to understanding how her actions are leading to destroying her family. And make no mistake...but denying you for this long, this often, eventually the day will come that you will be tempted or become so fed up that you leave. She is thinking "Okay we get to retire and do all those golden age things and yeah I have this pain but he is committed and will never leave me" and it really HAS NOT occurred to her to in her old age, she will be alone and have less than half of the income and resources she has now. That she will have to figure out how to change the oil in the car, fix the plumbing, or negotiate the social security red tape BY HERSELF...unless she starts making some effort. 

Your part in this is that you do bring up how much this bothers you, but for some reason it's not in a way that she is getting the message that "HEY! This needs to change or your comfort, your dreams, your life, your marriage, your family and your world are going to explode!" I think up to this point she's heard it at the level of "I'm not getting enough dessert!" complaining. So on your part, you need to make it clearer that this is unacceptable and you won't tolerate it forever...that she is running the risk of hitting old age alone if she doesn't take this seriously! 

Now, I get it--you are committed and married for life. I do get that. But in the same way that you are dismissing her pain during sex, she is dismissing your pain at not having sex! In fact, maybe you could use that as an example to help her understand:

_"Dear wifey, you have said that having sex is painful for you, and I have been hearing that as an excuse. I didn't take it seriously. But I've been thinking about this, and I realize I've been dismissive. For that I apologize. But I also want to use my new understanding as an example. When I tell you that having sex 3 times a year is not acceptable and you say 'You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you' what you are doing is exactly what I've been doing to you--dismissing my pain. But in my example, I tell you this is painful and keep doing the thing that hurts me. Imagine if you told me sex was painful and I'd promise to have sex less often and then kept having sex with you once or twice a day even though it hurt you! That's what you are doing to me! Now I do love you dearly and deeply, and I realize I have some things I need to change and work on too, but I'm telling you this needs to be taken seriously or our marriage is vulnerable and may die. I do not want it to die, but in order for it to NOT die, you have to understand that not having sex is similar to you telling me sex hurts, and I just keep doing it anyway. I would NEVER do that to you, and it is killing me that you are doing that to me."_


----------



## WorkingWife

oceantracks said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> The thing is, you can spend 15 minutes talking to her about this and everything she says ...kind of....makes sense. She shrugs it off and says "It's not forever for heaven's sake, I just need to get out of pain with the vertebrae surgery and feel better. It's hard to think of sex between lack of desire during menopause AND pain." Swears she loves me would have no idea what life would be like without us together, blah blah. I tell her I just don't want to be a roommate.
> 
> Tom


Actually, the thing is, if she doesn't do something about this sooner rather than later, it WILL be forever. He back pain will hopefully get better, but I don't see sex drive coming back when menopause is over, because menopause is the STOPPING of producing the hormones that help with sex drive. She is on the estrogen patch which will help, but basically, if she ignores that part of her body for too long, the pain will get worse and worse.

She should definitely talk to her Dr about a topical estrogen and maybe testosterone for that area. The pain is not just because of lubrication, the skin actually gets thinner and more fragile from menopause plus lack of use.

You say she "squirms out of it" by saying lets spend more time together but then "nothing happens." But you also say your kids are grown. So you two do NOT have to be there in the house with them constantly. You are the one who wants more sex. I think you're going to need to take it upon YOURSELF to make spending more time together happen. If you know she's going to crash and burn by night time, start taking her out to breakfast or brunch on the weekends. See if you can get her to the early bird special for dinner. Grab a sixpack and go sit and chat at the park.

It is a fact that most women need to feel emotionally close/connected to their man to have romantic feelings. I suggest YOU plan and set some dates with her and then YOU remember them and stick to them even if she "forgets." Also, she can not feel like going out for dinner because she's tired, but once she gets out of the house, alone with you, and gets attention and fun from you, she'll probably perk up and have a nice time. Get a glass of wine down her throat if you can. ;-)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> Tom,
> Your reaction to chronic rejection is as normal as it is destructive.
> 
> If sex is physically painful for her, she’s going to avoid it. People avoid pain. If your sexual routine was mostly/entirely missionary style intercourse, that makes the challenge bigger.
> 
> In any marriage, the two hardest questions to answer are also the most important:
> 1. Who do you love more? Yourself or your partner.
> 2. Who does your partner love more, themself or you?
> 
> How do you think she perceives your desire to have sex - despite the fact that it hurts her?[
> 
> *Are you open to a sexual routine that for now excludes intercourse?*


*
More importantly, is she?*


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## SunWhiskey

Be romantic and fun. Blow her off her feet. Surprise the hell out of her randomly one day with no expectations. Remove all pressure of sex, and I'm willing to bet she will come around willingly. 

Not, I surprised you with this weekend getaway, now put out. Just have genuine fun together.


Who wants to have sex with someone whos only doing it due to pressure?


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## Married but Happy

MEM2020 said:


> Tom,
> Your reaction to chronic rejection is as normal as it is destructive.
> 
> If sex is physically painful for her, she’s going to avoid it. People avoid pain. If your sexual routine was mostly/entirely missionary style intercourse, that makes the challenge bigger.
> 
> In any marriage, the two hardest questions to answer are also the most important:
> 1. Who do you love more? Yourself or your partner.
> 2. Who does your partner love more, themself or you?
> 
> How do you think she perceives your desire to have sex - despite the fact that it hurts her?
> 
> Are you open to a sexual routine that for now excludes intercourse?


Obviously, she loves herself more. She could do hand jobs, oral, or other activities, if intercourse is painful. Instead, she is using her pain as an excuse and not entertaining alternatives, unless I've missed something. It seems she won't compromise, so it is her selfishness that's the problem here.

OP, negotiate for what you want, or ask for an open marriage. As a last resort, leave.


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## Betrayedone

My advice??????..........END IT..........


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## aine

Tom, you refer to your wife as very selfish but have you thought about your own behaviour. For some women in menopause, sex is excruciating. Imagine a cut on your penis that is raw and painful when you get erect. How excited would you be at the prospect of sex? How loved and supported would you feel if your wife kept badgering you about the lack of sex. This is a time when women need the support and understanding of their husbands. 
You should read some articles on this online, there lots if you google it.
I also note she is 12 yrs younger than you. You mention divorce. She might decide she’s fed up of your lack of understanding and dump you. It works both ways and your fixation on getting what you want is clouding your view of your wife. She was always a willing partner till now so perhaps some more support and understanding is needed from your end.


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## aine

oceantracks said:


> Not a lot.
> 
> It's a weird situation, as we are both home all day as I'm lucky enough to work from home. So sometimes we'll both jump in the car and go odd places, but not for any kind of fun, just...up to the store, whatever. Once in awhile a quick (but not fancy) dinner out. So we are around each other all day.
> 
> We both pitch in on house duties.
> 
> She's not, as I said, an overly touchy feely person. But she's not unapproachable. I mean, this morning she came up and said "Hi hon, give me a hug" that kind of thing. It's just...I'm not even sure she gets it, really. She says she's really happy when we look at our life and remember other places we live...she just said yesterday "I really like this time we're in if it weren't for the pain stuff I'm dealing with..."....it's either that she's oblivious or just wants to avoid the subject. She has even said "You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you."
> 
> Yeah, that and 5.00 will get me a Starbucks.
> 
> I don't know. I think just concentrating on myself is the only road I have. Everything else presents itself as complaining. It's a crappy way to live frankly. I don't think I should have to, and yes she's aware of what the Bible says about withholding yourselves from one another. She doesn't have a clear answer. I think she thinks she's not doing anything consciously, it's just the circumstances of pain, and not feeling desire ...for any man...right now. She said she'll go to a top female doctor we found (who is two months out on appointments). Who knows.
> 
> I do appreciate all the input, especially input based on similar circumstances. Thanks much.


Wow, now using the bible to thump her over the head. You are a really selfish man. Let me remind you that the bible also says, love your wife as Christ loved the church in Ephesians 5:25 which means sacrificially, same as your own body. Yet she has body pains, issues with menopause and you can only think of your own sexual gratification. You are not following the teaching of the bible and you are the head of the household and are responsible.


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## In Absentia

aine said:


> Tom, you refer to your wife as very selfish but have you thought about your own behaviour.


Yes, the OP knows that there is a major problem and still pushes for sex. I agree that it's frustrating that his wife doesn't seem to be bothered about his sex life, but it is what it is. The OP has a choice: he sticks with her and enjoys his wife's company with no sex, or divorce. It's a stark choice but at the end of the day there is no obvious solution. Don't do what I did: keep making the same mistake until you drive your wife away. If the problem is really bothering you, have a final talk. Don't give ultimatums but just explain that you can't leave without sex and that your options are limited.


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## 269370

It’s a shame there isn’t much in the bible about ‘manual labour’; would you be opposed to the idea of asking your wife to provide a...helping hand (or mouth) to tie you over?
While she also tries the stuff workingwife suggested.
Gosh, I’m horrified to read all these things menopause can do...Is this how it goes for the majority of women?
Maybe it’s ok if the husbands get ED at the same time or something...Bit it doesn’t sound encouraging if one is horny as a dog and the other is dry as dessert. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia

InMyPrime said:


> Maybe it’s ok if the husbands get ED at the same time or something...


I wish I had ED or no drive... :laugh: Problem solved. It's not just the sex, it's the intimacy and deeper connection which disappear. Personally, I found it impossible to keep the connection going. After 18 months of no sex I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, despite what my therapist (woman) tells me.


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## Lila

@oceantracks have you and your wife considered hand jobs, fleshlights, or even sensate focus (kind of like tantric without the penetration)? 

Counseling with a sex therapist will be good for you and your wife but understand that in your case most of the recommendations provided will be alternatives to vaginal sex. You both will have to be open to that. 

Can you be happily married to your wife if vaginal sex is no longer a possibility? 

Can you be happily married if oral sex is possibly off the table as well if her neck issues go unresolved?


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## Married but Happy

In Absentia said:


> I wish I had ED or no drive... :laugh: Problem solved. It's not just the sex, it's the intimacy and deeper connection which disappear. Personally, I found it impossible to keep the connection going. After 18 months of no sex I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, despite what my therapist (woman) tells me.


Lack of sex is one thing, but lack of intimacy and connection is even worse. I've experienced both in my first marriage.

Having no drive might work if you spouse also is not interested. But ED isn't really a "solution" in that case, as men can have orgasms without erections - good oral can still make that happen.


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## In Absentia

Married but Happy said:


> But ED isn't really a "solution" in that case, as men can have orgasms without erections.


Never thought of that... maybe because I don't have ED (yet)... :laugh:


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## 269370

In Absentia said:


> I wish I had ED or no drive... :laugh: Problem solved. It's not just the sex, it's the intimacy and deeper connection which disappear. Personally, I found it impossible to keep the connection going. After 18 months of no sex I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, despite what my therapist (woman) tells me.




I think (and I might he mistaken?) you can have ED and still sport a strong sex drive...which seems the worst combination to me out of all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia

InMyPrime said:


> I think (and I might he mistaken?) you can have ED and still sport a strong sex drive...which seems the worst combination to me out of all.



yes... the stuff of nightmares!


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## Married but Happy

In Absentia said:


> yes... the stuff of nightmares!


You can be a blue pill guy in that case. Don't go the red pill route!


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## In Absentia

Married but Happy said:


> You can be a blue pill guy in that case. Don't go the red pill route!


well, at the moment I don't need either pill... :laugh: bit weird not having sex when you are married and you are only in your mid fifties... but sh*t happens... :smile2:


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## StillSearching

In Absentia said:


> yes... the stuff of nightmares!


Easy fix.
Sildenafil


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## badsanta

oceantracks said:


> She's not, as I said, an overly touchy feely person. But she's not unapproachable. I mean, this morning she came up and said "Hi hon, give me a hug" that kind of thing. It's just...I'm not even sure she gets it, really. She says she's really happy when we look at our life and remember other places we live...she just said yesterday "I really like this time we're in if it weren't for the pain stuff I'm dealing with..."....it's either that she's oblivious or just wants to avoid the subject. She has even said "You are making too much out of this, I'm HERE for heaven's sake, I love you."


 @oceantracks part of intimacy should be a soothing and healing place for someone struggling with pain. It appears that your wife may be avoiding nonsexual intimacy (soothing and healing) to avoid the physical intimacy (the part that may be uncomfortable and painful at the moment).

In my opinion you should focus on nonsexual intimacy to help bring the two of you closer. You also should discuss the idea of alternate forms of sexual intimacy that can be shared comfortably. The easiest form of this would be for her to encourage and support your efforts for self gratification. While that sounds awkward, the two of you could go shopping online for some fun novelties. One example that comes to mind is one of those TENS pain relief units for your back/neck. You can also buy TENS accessories intended pleasure release for your penis. You could role play and pretend your Johnson has a fractured vertebrae that needs attention and have her be your nurse and administer your treatments.


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## In Absentia

badsanta said:


> It appears that your wife may be avoiding nonsexual intimacy (soothing and healing) to avoid the physical intimacy (the part that may be uncomfortable and painful at the moment).
> 
> In my opinion you should focus on nonsexual intimacy to help bring the two of you closer.


If she is avoiding non sexual intimacy to avoid physical intimacy, I don't see how you can fix this by focusing on non sexual intimacy. This is what my therapist is telling me - to focus on non sexual intimacy - but since some patterns have been repeating themselves for years, it might never happen or it will take years to undo. In the meantime, you remain frustrated and depressed. In my opinion, they both need therapy. I will be discussing this very subject with my therapist next week, but if you think that any non sexual interaction might lead to sex or you think that your partner is doing that just to get sex, you have a mountain to climb, with no guarantee you will succeed. As I said before, you need a "complaint" wife...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

In Absentia said:


> *If she is avoiding non sexual intimacy to avoid physical intimacy,* I don't see how you can fix this by focusing on non sexual intimacy. This is what my therapist is telling me - to focus on non sexual intimacy - but since some patterns have been repeating themselves for years, it might never happen or it will take years to undo. In the meantime, you remain frustrated and depressed. In my opinion, they both need therapy. I will be discussing this very subject with my therapist next week, but if you think that any non sexual interaction might lead to sex or you think that your partner is doing that just to get sex, you have a mountain to climb, with no guarantee you will succeed. As I said before, you need a "complaint" wife...


Or you have a partner who is thrilled to soak up as much non sexual intimacy as possible with no intention of ever taking it sexual or having any idea that there could be a link and one could lead to the other. 

But of course in this case, acknowledging that link could be even more problematic since OP's wife already believes anything he does is just to get sex and will likely continue to think that... especially if there's anything disingenuous about his doing this (non sexual intimacy) in the first place. 

So....
1. OP can work on non sexual intimacy with expectation that it will lead to sexual intimacy, in which case his ulterior motive will likely be obvious and this will backfire

2. OP can work on sexual intimacy with no expectations whatsoever; trying to be a loving, nurturing spouse completely independent of sexual relations and
a) Spouse will still think he's just doing it to get sex even if he isn't in which case this will backfire
b) Spouse will soak up all that attention and never have any intention of it leading to sexual intimacy
c) It will work like a charm!

2c is the only desired outcome, but it is probably the least likely. 

Now given that OPs wife has undergone some serious physical changes and that sex itself is painful for her, I'd say that being that loving, nurturing spouse is paramount, regardless of outcome. This is the "for better or worse" part. The best opportunity to "meet in the middle" is the previous suggestion of engaging in non-intercourse sexual intimacy (assuming her physical difficulties don't preclude that as well).


----------



## badsanta

In Absentia said:


> If she is avoiding non sexual intimacy to avoid physical intimacy, I don't see how you can fix this by focusing on non sexual intimacy.


It is like asking what comes first, the chicken or the egg. While generally you can't get one without the other, those rules can be broken when it comes to intimacy. Once the rules are broken it is hard to restart the cycle.

For example if a guy just wants sexual intimacy and there isn't nonsexual intimacy, the relationship tends to make the woman feel used for sex. Something akin to just being a masturbatory aid without any desire for emotional closeness. If this happens regularly then on top of that you start to add problems with low self esteem and feeling as if no one will ever love you for who you are emotionally. The only way to fix that is to focus on nonsexual intimacy until things reset. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## In Absentia

badsanta said:


> It is like asking what comes first, the chicken or the egg.



I suppose it all boils down to attraction and love and wanting to work on the marriage... then, everything is possible.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

In Absentia said:


> If she is avoiding non sexual intimacy to avoid physical intimacy, I don't see how you can fix this by focusing on non sexual intimacy. This is what my therapist is telling me - to focus on non sexual intimacy - but since some patterns have been repeating themselves for years, it might never happen or it will take years to undo. In the meantime, you remain frustrated and depressed. In my opinion, they both need therapy. I will be discussing this very subject with my therapist next week, but if you think that any non sexual interaction might lead to sex or you think that your partner is doing that just to get sex, you have a mountain to climb, with no guarantee you will succeed.
> 
> * As I said before, you need a "complaint" wife.*..


I guess we all know the intended was "compliant" W ??

Quite a difference from a "complaint" W.

😁


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## In Absentia

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I guess we all know the intended was "compliant" W ??
> 
> Quite a difference from a "complaint" W.
> 
> &#55357;&#56833;


ah ah... sorry... it must have been a Freudian slip... I did say _compliant_ before... :laugh:


----------



## badsanta

In Absentia said:


> I suppose it all boils down to attraction and love and wanting to work on the marriage... then, everything is possible.


Many folks will disagree with this...

There are some psychology books that suggest that *physical attraction eventually has no impact on sexuality in long term relationships.* For example you can have two supermodels with rocking hot bodies that after ten years of marriage can no longer tolerate one another even though they are both extremely attractive. On the flip side of that you can have couples that might be grossly disfigured from an accident and even disabled that somehow manage to have an extraordinary sex life together after many years of marriage. 

That just leaves "love" as the primary variable of the difference between the two. So what is it? Generally speaking it is something nurtured by nonsexual intimacy.


----------



## In Absentia

badsanta said:


> Many folks will disagree with this...
> 
> There are some psychology books that suggest that *physical attraction eventually has no impact on sexuality in long term relationships.*


I didn't mean physical attraction, but as in "attractive" person... a person you are attracted to for his/her qualities, not just physical aspect. Although that helps... :laugh: Sorry if I didn't explain myself properly... going through a bit of a rough time right now... :|


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## 3Xnocharm

I cant believe how horrible and harsh some posters here have been regarding the W here! She is dealing with something painful and difficult, and I for one dont blame her for being avoidant. I am quite sure she feels a lot of distress over all of this, and OP is NOT being supportive, so I totally get why she isnt being COMPLIANT. Seriously, compliant?? This thread turns my stomach, honestly, I feel terrible for her. The more pressure she gets, the more she is going to pull away.


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## Casual Observer

badsanta said:


> Many folks will disagree with this...
> 
> There are some psychology books that suggest that *physical attraction eventually has no impact on sexuality in long term relationships.* For example you can have two supermodels with rocking hot bodies that after ten years of marriage can no longer tolerate one another even though they are both extremely attractive. On the flip side of that you can have couples that might be grossly disfigured from an accident and even disabled that somehow manage to have an extraordinary sex life together after many years of marriage.
> 
> That just leaves "love" as the primary variable of the difference between the two. So what is it? Generally speaking it is something nurtured by nonsexual intimacy.


At 61 my wife isn't anything like the woman I met 63 years ago. She was 5'3", 120 lbs, 34b, beautiful hair. Today she's maybe 5'2", 200 lbs, grossly disfigured breasts from 3 breast cancers and a really awful reconstruction. And yet I find her as beautiful today as ever. Contrast that to myself, I'm 6' and weigh 162, maybe 5 pounds more than when I married. Yes, I'd like her to take better care of herself, not for appearance but for her health. 

After having gone through a LOT of crap lately, I can honestly say our sex life is better today than it was when we married. Oh my gosh this woman frustrates me no end with her stubborness and how tone-deaf she can sometimes (often?) be. But I'm here for her. She's here for me. And if not for me putting my foot down, and to some extent enforcing decades of sex as a requirement, we could have been in the same place as many here. The difference is that we somehow, amazingly, made the move from sex as a required thing for the relationship, to sex as something that became normal and even sometimes desired for her. But getting there took a hellish several months.

You've really got to be willing to risk it all and you've got to be willing to change yourself. You have to find the invisible walls that have to be broken down. It's not just elephants in closets that you know about. And you have to stay on it, every single day, or else things can and probably will revert.


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## In Absentia

3Xnocharm said:


> Seriously, compliant??


The term was used in a general sense, not referring to the OP's wife or any other wife or woman in particular... I just meant that, to turn things around, people must want be willing to do it... I guess "compliant" has a pejorative connotation and for that reason it was put in bracket... it was meant to be a strong word to reinforce the meaning. Poor choice of word, I admit...


----------



## Casual Observer

3Xnocharm said:


> I cant believe how horrible and harsh some posters here have been regarding the W here! She is dealing with something painful and difficult, and I for one dont blame her for being avoidant. I am quite sure she feels a lot of distress over all of this, and OP is NOT being supportive, so I totally get why she isnt being COMPLIANT. Seriously, compliant?? This thread turns my stomach, honestly, I feel terrible for her. The more pressure she gets, the more she is going to pull away.


Compliant is totally the wrong word. Compassionate is another thing entirely. It seems that he's communicating his displeasure with the change to her; where is she offering to help? PIV may be off the table. Lots of other things aren't.

The hormonal stuff creating lack of interest. Yes, that's true, but hormonal change shouldn't create lack of compassion & understanding. Unless, of course, you let it. Life throws a lot of tough stuff at us. That doesn't eliminate our responsibilities elsewhere. It may create challenges, but if you are in a relationship that you want to keep, you have to work to overcome or mitigate those challenges. This isn't just a W thing. It's a human thing. 

You live with someone for 20-40 years and somehow it's OK to not think about how something you are or are not doing is affecting them? I suppose that's fine if you can only live in the moment (which was a huge issue I had to get my wife past... she'd live just in the moment and truly did not seem to understand long-term consequences because, as yet, they didn't exist). 

So when it's said "I am quite sure she feels a lot of distress over all of this" I'd reply that, apparently, it's not enough distress to motivate her to do something about it. You're thinking he's been too harsh on her; I'm thinking it's possible he has not adequately explained the consequences.

I just refuse to believe every, or most, or even many women on the planet will go Bat-S crazy and lose all empathy due to menopause. Losing desire for actual PIV, sure, I get that. Pain is pain. I don't want to argue that you need to suffer some pain for the greater good. But as I said, there are alternatives. And it's possible that, finding appropriate alternatives, things might get working elsewhere again as well. 

Of course, we can only speak authoritatively from personal experience. I am not that woman. My wife is not that woman. But My wife would have gone down that same path, had I allowed it. 8 months ago I was looking up information on D. Now we're probably happier and more-compatible in bed than we've been in our entire relationship. But it took a lot of work, a lot of tearful discussion, individual therapy sessions, books, and more patience than anyone can imagine because it took FOREVER for my wife to get past the "moment" and consider the future. 

I can see someone reading this and thinking I'm this manipulative guy who has to have things his way. The reality is that I've integrated more and more of my time and life into things she does and enjoys. I know it's not possible to get her more into the stuff (normal everyday stuff & hobbies etc) that I enjoy. I've changed... a lot. She gets a lot of 100% of my attention now. I've broken down some of her own strange notions of privacy and gotten rid of a ton or hidden resentments. I never knew things could get this good.

So I have the same hope for the OP and his wife. They can both be a whole lot happier than they presently are.


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## Blondilocks

No one knows what his wife is amenable to or not because the OP hasn't elaborated. But; we do know that they have adult kids all over the house and the OP insists on sleeping on the couch.

So, just what do you recommend his wife do that won't gross out the kids or put her in traction?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Casual Observer said:


> At 61 my wife isn't anything like the woman I met 63 years ago.


You met your wife two years before she was born?:surprise:


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## Casual Observer

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> You met your wife two years before she was born?:surprise:


Ha! 43 years ago, I should have said. 

Y'now, we talk about "mid"-life crisis, but I think there's a whole 'nother thing involved when we hit our 60s, and it's not just mortality per se that sets into our thinking, but also wondering how much longer we'll be functionally whole, including sex. We worry that it won't be that many more years before maybe we don't care anymore, but we care NOW and the clock is ticking away. 

The OP is at that age right now. He might be thinking this is his last chance to fish or cut bait. I get that. He's not willing to wait 3 or 4 years because that might be the last really good 3 or 4 years he's got. Who knows.


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## WorkingWife

badsanta said:


> Many folks will disagree with this...
> 
> There are some psychology books that suggest that *physical attraction eventually has no impact on sexuality in long term relationships.* For example you can have two supermodels with rocking hot bodies that after ten years of marriage can no longer tolerate one another even though they are both extremely attractive. On the flip side of that you can have couples that might be grossly disfigured from an accident and even disabled that somehow manage to have an extraordinary sex life together after many years of marriage.
> 
> That just leaves "love" as the primary variable of the difference between the two. So what is it? Generally speaking it is something nurtured by nonsexual intimacy.


I think a lot of attraction also comes from personality.

I would say I agree with your post completely EXCEPT if my partner was GROSSLY obese that would turn me off. Unless maybe it was from a medical condition.


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## badsanta

WorkingWife said:


> here are some psychology books that suggest that *physical attraction eventually has no impact on sexuality in long term relationships....*
> 
> 
> 
> *I think a lot of attraction also comes from personality.*
> 
> I would say I agree with your post completely EXCEPT if my partner was GROSSLY obese that would turn me off. Unless maybe it was from a medical condition.
Click to expand...

There are forms of sexuality that are personality driven such as pansexuality. OMG I just read the wikipedia article on pansexuality and it goes into so much detail to try and describe the notion of gernderblind, but it completely fails to say what it is that pansexuals are attracted to. Without getting into all that, a pansexual person is someone that is attracted to someone because of their personality without any limits on physical appearance or even gender. 

My point being in bringing up that example is that for some folks personality alone can easily transcend obstacles of physical incompatibility. Even for short term relationships. 

However I don't think it really works like that in a LTR. Perhaps kind of. But more so in the notion that a long term relationship eventually reaches a stage of absolute trust, complete vulnerability, and truly knowing/seeing each other's true self. You see all your partner's flaws and you accept them. Your partner knows you see this and is not ashamed. Perhaps someone's true personality is seen in this context, but it is more a process of being absolutely close to someone. 

For example early in my marriage during intimacy, I often had no idea what my wife was thinking or what she liked. It was this fun mystery that we would explore and talk about afterwards. Fast forward a few decades and what used to be mysterious is now replaced with this solemn sense of togetherness of no longer really being able to feel where one person ends and the other begins. 

Perhaps it is eventually sense of physical closeness that overcomes what would often be described as physical attraction. 

And then you have these people in long term relationships with little or no intimacy, and I scratch my head. It could be the conundrum of those that strive to be someone better for themselves than the person that he/she truly are. Always keeping up this illusion of beauty and future accomplishment, but never allowing anyone to see the wizard behind the curtain pulling the strings. No one is perfect and everyone has flaws. Not everyone is OK showing those to a spouse and allowing themself to still feel accepted and loved when doing so. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## WorkingWife

badsanta said:


> And then you have these people in long term relationships with little or no intimacy, and I scratch my head. It could be the conundrum of those that strive to be someone better for themselves than the person that he/she truly are. Always keeping up this illusion of beauty and future accomplishment, but never allowing anyone to see the wizard behind the curtain pulling the strings. No one is perfect and everyone has flaws. Not everyone is OK showing those to a spouse and allowing themself to still feel accepted and loved when doing so.


Very interesting post. Considering a "manly" personality is part of what I'm attracted to, I'm thinking the whole pansexuality thing wouldn't work for me, LOL.

ANYHOW - about this last para of yours that I quoted. Not necessarily here in TAM where people are looking for answers, but IRL amongst people I meet, I notice that a lot of those in LTR with no intimacy are very hung up on what THEY are unhappy about and what needs of THEIRS are not getting met, with very little concern for what their partner might be unhappy about or what needs they might have that they are not meeting. I think as people spend more and more time together they either treat each other better and better as you only can when you REALLY know someone, or they focus on disappointments and resentments and somewhat deliberately stop trying to get to know their partner better and to have intimacy with them.


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