# Unsure if he exists...



## Insanity022 (Nov 2, 2020)

Does every many cheat? I mean really....I'm not feeling particularly jaded towards men, but then I think perhaps Im being stupid I realize women cheat to, but it seems like almost every man, even the ones that appear good in other respects, end up cheating. Is it in the DNA. Is monogamy unnatural? An elderly couple I know of - the husband who had cheated on occasion throughout their long marriage, believed he was a good man because he stayed with his wife and provided for his children and did not leave (like so many other men). He did, in fact, love his wife .. and seemed to feel like the cheating was a "part of life".... Am I just stupid to believe there are faithful men, who have morels and vales about being a man that dont including cheating...


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## Miserable71 (Oct 3, 2020)

As a male now going through his 2nd divorce due to the female cheating (one physically and one emotionally), I have the save jadedness directed back at females. I feel that all this technology and break-neck, fast-paced life that we all live today, just makes it much more available and easy to cheat. I think there of course some of both sexes that can still commit and remain faithful, but finding one is next to impossible. Seems to be an age of instant gratification with no regards to any other human's feelings.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The best available stats I've found indicate over 70% of women cheat, and over 72% of men - and that's conservative. So not everyone - man or woman - cheats. I have not, despite having motive and opportunity - I opted for divorce instead.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I’ve written about this a few times but I think it’s worth repeating. 
When I was single I had a ons and when we got up the next morning I asked the woman did she want to go out for breakfast. She said no because her boyfriend or one of his friends might see us. I knew nothing about any boyfriend. 
I asked her why she wasn’t faithful to her boyfriend and I’ve never forgotten her answer. 
She said she had been faithful “lots of times”.
It seems that some people look on cheating like this. They’ve been faithful for years so why should a few weeks of cheating matter. It’s like they’re playing a percentage game.


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## Miserable71 (Oct 3, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> I’ve written about this a few times but I think it’s worth repeating.
> When I was single I had a ons and when we got up the next morning I asked the woman did she want to go out for breakfast. She said no because her boyfriend or one of his friends might see us. I knew nothing about any boyfriend.
> I asked her why she wasn’t faithful to her boyfriend and I’ve never forgotten her answer.
> She said she had been faithful “lots of times”.
> It seems that some people look on cheating like this. They’ve been faithful for years so why should a few weeks of cheating matter. It’s like they’re playing a percentage game.


People will come up with all kinds of crazy logic to explain their behavior and usually also push it off on the other person. After the emotional affair came to light, I was told that I was controlling and overreacting.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Maybe reading esther pearl did me in. I've come to accept that cheating happens so much that it would be unusual not to have it touch your life. I don't see that as permission, just a rose glasses removed look at reality. Now at one point I had a fairly serious infatuation with an outside woman. I did not act on it, I did not announce it. I call it my one sided emotional affair. I'm pretty sure something at least that serious is going on with my wife right now. What can I say? it's touching my life again.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I find not a single thing to "like" about the content of any post here. Nothing wrong with the posts per se; it's the sad commentary about humanity.

Seriously. I go to a new thread and really do try and find something to "like." But nothing here. I have remained faithful through a whole lot of crap in my marriage, and there are times when I had to make sure opportunities (for me) were intentionally sabotaged. I won't claim that being faithful is something that doesn't, for some of us, require a bit of work. But it's really sad to read the stories here about destroyed marriages because somebody stepped out.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Andy1001 said:


> I’ve written about this a few times but I think it’s worth repeating.
> When I was single I had a ons and when we got up the next morning I asked the woman did she want to go out for breakfast. She said no because her boyfriend or one of his friends might see us. I knew nothing about any boyfriend.
> I asked her why she wasn’t faithful to her boyfriend and I’ve never forgotten her answer.
> She said she had been faithful “lots of times”.
> It seems that some people look on cheating like this. They’ve been faithful for years so why should a few weeks of cheating matter. It’s like they’re playing a percentage game.


Oh I got this from my husband. “I’m actually really proud of myself that I didn’t cheat all the way up until now.” As though fidelity is a tenured position. Give me a fuggin break!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Cheating is definitely common although certainly not everyone does. And, once you’ve been burned, it’s difficult to trust going forward. Some choose not to have another serious relationship because of it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Insanity022 said:


> Does every many cheat? I mean really....I'm not feeling particularly jaded towards men, but then I think perhaps Im being stupid I realize women cheat to, but it seems like almost every man, even the ones that appear good in other respects, end up cheating. Is it in the DNA. Is monogamy unnatural? An elderly couple I know of - the husband who had cheated on occasion throughout their long marriage, believed he was a good man because he stayed with his wife and provided for his children and did not leave (like so many other men). He did, in fact, love his wife .. and seemed to feel like the cheating was a "part of life".... Am I just stupid to believe there are faithful men, who have morels and vales about being a man that dont including cheating...


Nope, 

Lots of people cheat though.

Stick around and read on here. Many of us are "pretty against" cheating, to be nice. 

Let me say gently maybe your picker is broken and you are picking the wrong men.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Insanity022 said:


> Does every many cheat? I mean really....I'm not feeling particularly jaded towards men, but then I think perhaps Im being stupid I realize women cheat to, but it seems like almost every man, even the ones that appear good in other respects, end up cheating. Is it in the DNA. Is monogamy unnatural? An elderly couple I know of - the husband who had cheated on occasion throughout their long marriage, believed he was a good man because he stayed with his wife and provided for his children and did not leave (like so many other men). He did, in fact, love his wife .. and seemed to feel like the cheating was a "part of life".... Am I just stupid to believe there are faithful men, who have morels and vales about being a man that dont including cheating...


Of course they dont. As it happens I know just as many women who have cheated. Both of my brothers wives cheated, he never did because he is a decent guy.
There are loads of men who are faithful, we know many. There are some of them on this forum. You cant go by the men you know and assume that applies to all men.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> The best available stats I've found indicate over 70% of women cheat, and over 72% of men - and that's conservative. So not everyone - man or woman - cheats. I have not, despite having motive and opportunity - I opted for divorce instead.


I had heard more like 50%, but either way that leaves countless millions who dont cheat.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Fidelity is difficult. Long term fidelity even moreso. It's not an excuse not to be faithful. Many good and decent things in life are difficult. Now that we have agreed that there are many who do fall from the pedestal, let's take a closer look at what defines that fall. There are some here who claim to have retained their position by divorcing before abandoning their spouse, but there is at least one person here who would define the act of divorce itself (with 2 very narrow exceptions) as an act of infidelity. But that is not all, Sometimes we get so focused on the ways to *commit *infidelity that we forget the equally common *omission* of fidelity. Omitting to be faithful, failing to continue to provide love, emotional support and closeness, and yes even sex, is also infidelity. To deny a marriage partner love,and joy, while claiming to be a faithful partner is an act of utter cruelty. So lump those who cheat their partners by denial in with the rest of the cheaters. 

I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It is a sign of our times. 

Such behavior as this has repeated itself many times throughout our long history. 

Religion has attempted to quell waywardness and deceit.
It has helped, but now many religions are slowly losing adherents.
For a host of reasons (good and bad).

We think this behavior is new. 
Every generation does.

Has it gotten worse?
I think so. 

The internet is a bad influence.

I feel that I am a hypocrite when I write this. 
_The Typist_ is no angel. 
He is hopeless.



_Are Dee-_


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Fidelity is difficult. Long term fidelity even moreso. It's not an excuse not to be faithful. Many good and decent things in life are difficult. Now that we have agreed that there are many who do fall from the pedestal, let's take a closer look at what defines that fall. There are some here who claim to have retained their position by divorcing before abandoning their spouse, but there is at least one person here who would define the act of divorce itself (with 2 very narrow exceptions) as an act of infidelity. But that is not all, Sometimes we get so focused on the ways to *commit *infidelity that we forget the equally common *omission* of fidelity. Omitting to be faithful, failing to continue to provide love, emotional support and closeness, and yes even sex, is also infidelity. To deny a marriage partner love,and joy, while claiming to be a faithful partner is an act of utter cruelty. So lump those who cheat their partners by denial in with the rest of the cheaters.
> 
> I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


I dont agree that most long marriages include survivors of infidelity. In a good percentage of marriages where there has been cheating, divorce often follows as we see even just on this site. Yes there are some who remain in the marriage and they decide to stay even though its not going to ever be the same for whatever reason. Many because they are afraid of what divorce would bring, many who are afraid to think of a life alone, afraid of having less money, of loosing their home, of what their families will think, many because they dont want the children to have a broken home, all sorts of reasons, but I very much doubt they are the majority. 
I just think its really positive to know that around half of people dont cheat rather than focus on the half who do.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> Fidelity is difficult. Long term fidelity even moreso. It's not an excuse not to be faithful. Many good and decent things in life are difficult. Now that we have agreed that there are many who do fall from the pedestal, let's take a closer look at what defines that fall. There are some here who claim to have retained their position by divorcing before abandoning their spouse, but there is at least one person here who would define the act of divorce itself (with 2 very narrow exceptions) as an act of infidelity. But that is not all, Sometimes we get so focused on the ways to *commit *infidelity that we forget the equally common *omission* of fidelity. Omitting to be faithful, failing to continue to provide love, emotional support and closeness, and yes even sex, is also infidelity. To deny a marriage partner love,and joy, while claiming to be a faithful partner is an act of utter cruelty. So lump those who cheat their partners by denial in with the rest of the cheaters.
> 
> I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


Sorry, 32 years here and no infidelity on either part, so I'm one of the lucky ones (except it isn't luck -- it is a TON of hard work and constant communication on problems to work them out before they can derail the marriage).

I DO know you said most, and I DO realize that this is ONE anecdotal case, but I hardly think my marriage is the unicorn.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> Sorry, 32 years here and no infidelity on either part, so I'm one of the lucky ones (except it isn't luck -- it is a TON of hard work and constant communication on problems to work them out before they can derail the marriage).
> 
> I DO know you said most, and I DO realize that this is ONE anecdotal case, but I hardly think my marriage is the unicorn.


I am fortunate enough to know many long and faithul marriages among my friends and in my wider family. Many of 40-50 years. In ours as well, we have both had two marriages, but neither has been unfaithful in either. 23 and 25 years in our first marriages and 16 years this time.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Sorry, 32 years here and no infidelity on either part, so I'm one of the lucky ones (except it isn't luck -- it is a TON of hard work and constant communication on problems to work them out before they can derail the marriage).
> 
> I DO know you said most, and I DO realize that this is ONE anecdotal case, but I hardly think my marriage is the unicorn.


I’m just pondering here, but does marriage actually have to be so much hard work? Isn’t there an easy marriage, where partners are in tune and synchronized in their morals, values and the respect and love to the extent... it’s NOT hard work? Why does it have to be difficult?? Maybe I just don’t know the difference because it’s always been difficult to me, having to work so hard at this, only to have it blow up in my face. So what’s TOO difficult and what’s normal difficult, and is there a non difficult setting if you find the right person or if you fix your broken picker? Maybe I’m getting too psychological or over thinking this, but I am genuinely interested in people’s opinions here. WHY does it need to be so hard!


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Miserable71 said:


> As a male now going through his 2nd divorce due to the female cheating (one physically and one emotionally), I have the save jadedness directed back at females. I feel that all this technology and break-neck, fast-paced life that we all live today, just makes it much more available and easy to cheat. I think there of course some of both sexes that can still commit and remain faithful, but finding one is next to impossible. Seems to be an age of instant gratification with no regards to any other human's feelings.


That is absolutely heartbreaking, I'm so sorry you've had to go through that. Somehow the second one seems so much worse - she knew you'd been through it before, but did it anyway. It rocks you to your core.

I'm beyond blessed to have the husband that I do. No, he's not perfect, nor am I, but we are perfect for each other. I'm not naive enough to not be aware that anything could happen one day, but we have a loving, happy marriage and communicate so well, even during uncomfortable conversations, so hopefully we'll be one of the long term success stories one day


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

QuietRiot said:


> I’m just pondering here, but does marriage actually have to be so much hard work? Isn’t there an easy marriage, where partners are in tune and synchronized in their morals, values and the respect and love to the extent... it’s NOT hard work? Why does it have to be difficult?? Maybe I just don’t know the difference because it’s always been difficult to me, having to work so hard at this, only to have it blow up in my face. So what’s TOO difficult and what’s normal difficult, and is there a non difficult setting if you find the right person or if you fix your broken picker? Maybe I’m getting too psychological or over thinking this, but I am genuinely interested in people’s opinions here. WHY does it need to be so hard!


Well. let me clarify the "hard work". My marriage isn't "hard" to deal with at all. I meant rather that it is continual work -- don't neglect each other, talk all the time, work out your differences, spend time together having fun as well as the every-day stuff.
ALL marriages I think DO go through "tough times" but by and large, we've gotten through those with communication and caring about the other person and listening.

I think many times that folks get complacent where "hey we are married" and then get caught up in the day-to-day and sort of take their spouse for granted. If this goes on long enough, REAL troubles happen because resentment builds up, issues don't get resolved and before you know it "leaving the cap off the toothpaste" becomes a major blow out.
The hard part is to NOT get complacent. ALWAYS know that your spouse is your primary relationship and treat it that way. I'm not saying neglect friends, family, kids, etc., but again the relationship with your H or W should be PRIMARY and be treated as such. Helps if you both have really good solid boundaries and even more important, SELF boundaries (protect your marriage, don't let others get between you or even KNOW about your issues). 
That's just my take on it of course. It works for us -- would it work for others? Maybe not as each are individuals and need to find your own path/happiness and work out your own ways of interrelating.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

If the many posts in this thread are right and this forum is just about the subset where someone is caught, I am incredibly naive.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> I’m just pondering here, but does marriage actually have to be so much hard work? Isn’t there an easy marriage, where partners are in tune and synchronized in their morals, values and the respect and love to the extent... it’s NOT hard work? Why does it have to be difficult?? Maybe I just don’t know the difference because it’s always been difficult to me, having to work so hard at this, only to have it blow up in my face. So what’s TOO difficult and what’s normal difficult, and is there a non difficult setting if you find the right person or if you fix your broken picker? Maybe I’m getting too psychological or over thinking this, but I am genuinely interested in people’s opinions here. WHY does it need to be so hard!


I do think its vitally important to marry someone who shares all of our core values and beliefs. This does make things easier and to be honest I dont find this marriage hard work as such. In the first few years I did make sure we went on some good marriage courses just to help things along, second marriages with exes and step children can be challenging and we all know that more second marriages fail than first ones, but I see it as a garden. Keep doing the little things like pulling up the weeds, trimming the bushes and cutting the grass, and it wont get out of control and over grown. Gardening isnt horrible, but its necessary. It does help that my husband is very easy going and easy to please, a typical Aussie.
I did find my first marriage more challenging because my ex had a temper and was pretty inconsistant in how he responded to things so we were never sure what reaction we may get. Like walking on eggshells sometimes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


I think there is a lot of truth to this.

Line up 100 couples that have all been married for over 50 years and I’d bet many are ragged survivors who chose to remain married despite some degree of infidelity at some point. 

The syndicated sex and relationship commentator Dan Savage has said that the people who have been married 40, 50, 60 years and have only had a few dalliances in that time are not failures at monogamy, but are actually the ones that are good at monogamy.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

To answer the original question- I think most people are faithful most of the time. 

That number may actually be quite high.

Perhaps 90+% of the people are faithful 90+ % of the time.

But we tend to think of marital fidelity like drinking water. 

One drop of raw sewage dropped into a 1000 gallon tank of drinking water, we tend to think of it as now 1000 gallons of sewage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I think there is a lot of truth to this.
> 
> Line up 100 couples that have all been married for over 50 years and I’d bet many are ragged survivors who chose to remain married despite some degree of infidelity at some point.
> 
> The syndicated sex and relationship commentator Dan Savage has said that the people who have been married 40, 50, 60 years and have only had a few dalliances in that time are not failures at monogamy, but are actually the ones that are good at monogamy.


So people who have cheated several times in a long marriage are good at monogamy?I think they are very bad at monogamy. The ones who havent cheated at all are good at monogamy.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> So people who have cheated several times in a long marriage are good at monogamy?I think they are very bad at monogamy. The ones who havent cheated at all are good at monogamy.


Including cheating their partners of love and affection by filling their lives with . . .
Work
Children's sports
Religious obligation
Hobbys
Pornography
Escapism
Politics
And so on.
Those partners are just as cheated.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

I've seen the question asked several times in several places "Do all men cheat?". Some of the typical comments and even the question amuse me a little bit. Part of the reason the experience is so common comes from a sampling bias since women prefer a tall extrovert, both traits predicting a tendency toward unfaithfulness. The predictable "fidelity is so hard" is also kind of funny like you could trip on a cord at work or slip on the ice and end up cheating. There's also some implicit conceit in saying that since it implies that members of the opposite sex (or same if you're into that) are pursuing you or always available and it is only by constant vigilance and self control that you don't end up in a relationship with one.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Insanity022

In the end, it's never who you trust but what you trust them to do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> So people who have cheated several times in a long marriage are good at monogamy?I think they are very bad at monogamy. The ones who havent cheated at all are good at monogamy.


That is the drinking water principle. 

That one drop of sewage renders a reservoir of drinking water nonpotable and basically turns it into a body of sewage. 

That assumption is a 60 year old woman that has been a faithful wife and doting mother for 40 years has ‘failed’ at marriage and fidelity if she gets with some guy at a trade convention one night.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Certainly being short and fat is not the ideal path to fidelity. Faithfulness is hard because after 3decades you accumulate a mass of resentments, complasency, petty incompatibility, you know, bad habits. The lowered standard of love, opens the self to a longing for a better, more satisfying life. Some opt for the thrill chasing of a sexual affair. Some fight back with passive aggression. Some hold on in lovelessness for the children or the vow or more truthfully the social stigma. Or fear. 
Anyway it is hard to live with one person for that length of time without stumbling into something that will offend one of you. It's all in how you (plural) handle it. 
I realize that the original intent of this thread is sexual infidelity. And that OP is dealing with a habitual sexual cheater. Probably addicted to the thrill of the chase. No most men are not that. But almost every person, even the unattractive or introverted will fail to provide their spouse with the emotional needs they vowed to provide. At least some of the time. It's where it starts.


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## Miserable71 (Oct 3, 2020)

People are making some good comments here, but I personally, just can't agree with some comments. On the drinking water principle, well, call that water whatever you want, sewage or still good drinking water, it is not water I would want to drink from on a daily basis. I don't feel that for every x years of dedication, my spouse is allowed x affairs. That may work well for some and that is all good for them. I never care what situations work for others, only what I know I would like and how I would like to be for another person.

Mr. Nail's post just makes me want to throw up my hands and board myself up in my house when I'm not at work. I guess it bugs me so much cause it really is an accurate portrait of how many affairs might start. All the times we felt slighted by our spouse or not given attention at a time we felt we really needed it. Most people in relationships don't do those things on purpose, but the feeling of the other person can create room for that attention to be provided by someone else, leading to an affair.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> That one drop of sewage renders a reservoir of drinking water nonpotable and basically turns it into a body of sewage.


Speaking just to the literal part of this, pretty much every reservoir has some amount of bird excrement deposited directly in it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

SpinyNorman said:


> Speaking just to the literal part of this, pretty much every reservoir has some amount of bird excrement deposited directly in it.


Yes and that is exactly what has been on my mind for potentially starting another thread.

The reality is there is no true purity in nature. Only degrees of contamination.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

SpinyNorman said:


> Speaking just to the literal part of this, pretty much every reservoir has some amount of bird excrement deposited directly in it.


Imperfections are bird excrements, I would consider cheaters more akin to poisoning the reservoir than bird poop.

Anyway, cheaters are a type. Certain personalities are more prone to it than others, nothing is guaranteed sure as anyone is capable of cheating when their weaknesses are exploited to the hilt, key is finding out their weaknesses and see if either they have the willpower to overcome it when challenged or if they can safely avoid that challenge or find someone else with another weakness altogether. In the end we all have to decide what we can accept.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


I will follow up and say if they say they are happy, one person may be but the other is lying. Maybe to themselves.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

QuietRiot said:


> I’m just pondering here, but does marriage actually have to be so much hard work? Isn’t there an easy marriage, where partners are in tune and synchronized in their morals, values and the respect and love to the extent... it’s NOT hard work? Why does it have to be difficult?? Maybe I just don’t know the difference because it’s always been difficult to me, having to work so hard at this, only to have it blow up in my face. So what’s TOO difficult and what’s normal difficult, and is there a non difficult setting if you find the right person or if you fix your broken picker? Maybe I’m getting too psychological or over thinking this, but I am genuinely interested in people’s opinions here. WHY does it need to be so hard!


The hard work for most people is not with the marriage but with themselves. Life is hard work, if you do it right, if you strive to be better. 

And there is nothing bad about hard work, every consistently successful person you have ever seen works very hard at it. Hard work can be a joy and it certainly has it's place and it's value.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

I find this thread and the different perspectives fascinating!!! Maybe part of the reason for that is because I've never had my two marriages touched by infidelity - BOTH men (who I was with for 16 years and 18 years) were VERY faithful. 
What I ran into TWICE was substance abuse - totally unpredictable, totally uncontrollable, totally unstoppable. But that is actually almost the SAME script as a cheater! In fact, I have described it as my husband was cheating on me WITH HIMSELF.

Cheating comes from a basic self-centered nature and impulse - the person can dress it up and justify it anyway they want, but what it's about is that they are thinking of THEMSELVES and gratifying something in them that they need and/or want.
But that is also the basic reason for most relationship-damaging choices - selfishness that has taken the next step into gratification. Avoiding a CHEATER isn't necessarily going to guarantee you a secure, stable, loving relationship that lasts.

To me, it's not really "cheating" that people are battling - it's selfishness. So if you pick someone who is more prone to be selfish (and it's pretty clear early on who those people are), you are going to have a harder time in a relationship with that person, for any number of reasons. Maybe they won't cheat on you, but there are other things that can hurt just as much and be just as destructive, and just as much of a betrayal.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Including cheating their partners of love and affection by filling their lives with . . .
> Work
> Children's sports
> Religious obligation
> ...


Adultery isnt the same in anyway as someone being keen on a hobby or being passionate about politics. Adultery breaks the marriage covenant and destroys the trust.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Adultery isnt the same in anyway as someone being keen on a hobby or being passionate about politics. Adultery breaks the marriage covenant and destroys the trust.


Yes historically this is somewhat true. Mosaic law punished adultery with death, while the punishment for infidelity was only divorce.
So adultery is different than infidelity. 
What I am talking about is Cheating
Adultery is cheating.
There are a lot of other marriage destroying, trust destroying, covenant breaking ways to cheat.
I have no problem including breaking any of the marriage vows in a discussion of marriage. I've never seen a marriage ceremony where the officiator simply asked the couple if they promised to refrain from sexual intercourse with others. Usually there is some sort of promise to love each other. Any married person who fails to love their spouse is guilty of infidelity, They break the covenant of marriage, they destroy trust, they hurt their spouse. They do in very fact Cheat their spouse of the love they promised. 
Now if you want to include this kind of person in your list of millions of good faithful men, I can't think much of that list.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yes historically this is somewhat true. Mosaic law punished adultery with death, while the punishment for infidelity was only divorce.
> So adultery is different than infidelity.
> What I am talking about is Cheating
> Adultery is cheating.
> ...


We have different ideas of what cheating and infidelity is. I am talking about the physical, emotional and sexual cheating/adultery with another person. As for loving our spouse, we were never supposed to get all of our needs met by one other person, what pressure that would put on our spouses. We are suppoed to have family and friends and pets and interests and hobbies etc etc as well. Also marriage is far more than what our spouse does for us, but what we can do for them. Its not just about what WE can get, or about OUR needs, its about both being unselfish and thinking of the other more than ourselves. 
And yes, there are and have been countless millions of good faithful men and women.


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## Insanity022 (Nov 2, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Nope,
> 
> Lots of people cheat though.
> 
> ...


O000hh so It's not the other person, It's my fault for choosing that person... I see. I guess with the number of cheaters around, it was destine to happen, regardless of how insightful my "picker" is/was. I am 56 years old and this is the first time I have been cheated on by someone I loved. If we look at the years and percentages I have to feel I have a decent picker...but that the man is not decent.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Diana once again you are referring to a christianity that I have never encountered. I'm sure that my wedding vows were not, Do you MN promise to not have sex with anyone but this woman, But not specifically to actually have sex with this woman, especially in the ways she desires, and do you promise to love and cherish this puppy and do you promise to honor this political party, and if it is convenient check in with your spouse once a month or so. Now as to "countless millions of good faithful men and women" What good are they to me? Are they on my kids soccer team? Am I supposed to get my emotional support from them? And last but certainly not least (this does return to the topic of this thread) How do I tell them from the countless millions x2 adulterous sexual cheaters? Because that is how the math really works.


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## Insanity022 (Nov 2, 2020)

Mr. Nail said:


> Fidelity is difficult. Long term fidelity even moreso. It's not an excuse not to be faithful. Many good and decent things in life are difficult. Now that we have agreed that there are many who do fall from the pedestal, let's take a closer look at what defines that fall. There are some here who claim to have retained their position by divorcing before abandoning their spouse, but there is at least one person here who would define the act of divorce itself (with 2 very narrow exceptions) as an act of infidelity. But that is not all, Sometimes we get so focused on the ways to *commit *infidelity that we forget the equally common *omission* of fidelity. Omitting to be faithful, failing to continue to provide love, emotional support and closeness, and yes even sex, is also infidelity. To deny a marriage partner love,and joy, while claiming to be a faithful partner is an act of utter cruelty. So lump those who cheat their partners by denial in with the rest of the cheaters.
> 
> I'm going to say this once and let it lie here on the forum for all to behold. It is my firm belief that most long term (30 + year) marriages are survivors of infidelity that have forgiven each other. Not "countless millions good and faithful" But the ragged few survivors with healed scars, Those are the long term marriage successes. The true secret to lasting happiness is not avoiding sin, but the ability to forgive. And if you think it is hard to remain faithful, this makes it look like nothing.


Love all that...but that is just it...that is part of the ongoing after math for the non-cheating partner, that is the dilemma... Do I take him/her back and trust he now becomes a man of integrity? Wouldnt that be a rare man that suddenly becomes full of integrity where none was had before? I would love to forgive and have my world repaired and continue on for 30 years... I think the actions of the caught-cheater would need to be so specifically geared to a complete understanding of why they cheated and open and honest dialogue about why it happened and what makes it not going to happen again... and really, I feel that anyone with that much integrity probably would have had the insight to have these conversations before the infidelity occurred. Also, it seems more likely that it would be a one-night _mistake _rather than an affair that could be forgiven, forgotten and a basis for growth rather than divorce...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Insanity022 said:


> Does every many cheat? I mean really....I'm not feeling particularly jaded towards men, but then I think perhaps Im being stupid I realize women cheat to, but it seems like almost every man, even the ones that appear good in other respects, end up cheating. Is it in the DNA. Is monogamy unnatural? An elderly couple I know of - the husband who had cheated on occasion throughout their long marriage, believed he was a good man because he stayed with his wife and provided for his children and did not leave (like so many other men). He did, in fact, love his wife .. and seemed to feel like the cheating was a "part of life".... Am I just stupid to believe there are faithful men, who have morels and vales about being a man that dont including cheating...


I am one and am raising 2 more. I pray they find worthy young ladies who are the same. I really feel for decent youn men now days. The adulterers i know of personally....women are in the lead by a 20% margin.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Insanity022 said:


> Do I take him/her back and trust he now becomes a man of integrity? Wouldnt that be a rare man that suddenly becomes full of integrity where none was had before?


If you know someone is a cheater / lacks integrity, the chances of them changing who they are are essentially non-existent.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Insanity022 said:


> Does every many cheat? I mean really....I'm not feeling particularly jaded towards men, but then I think perhaps Im being stupid I realize women cheat to, but it seems like almost every man, even the ones that appear good in other respects, end up cheating. Is it in the DNA. Is monogamy unnatural? An elderly couple I know of - the husband who had cheated on occasion throughout their long marriage, believed he was a good man because he stayed with his wife and provided for his children and did not leave (like so many other men). He did, in fact, love his wife .. and seemed to feel like the cheating was a "part of life".... Am I just stupid to believe there are faithful men, who have morels and vales about being a man that dont including cheating...


Not everyone cheats and that includes both genders.

The older man in your post is pathetic and is justifying his disgusting behavior.

I haven't cheated on my wife and she hasn't, to my knowledge, on me.

I didn't cheat before her and she was actually the other woman twice and cheated in both her marriages before me.

Almost all my friends have been cheated on by their wives which resulted in divorce for them and I've seen about a 20 to 1 ratio of woman cheating verses men on their marriages in the last 30 years. Those cases are ones I've seen first hand or been privy to.

In my personal experience, women have cheated at an extremely higher rate than men. Despite my experience, I know cheating is pretty much an equal gender opportunity and there are at least as many cheating men as women.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Insanity022 said:


> Love all that...but that is just it...that is part of the ongoing after math for the non-cheating partner, that is the dilemma... Do I take him/her back and trust he now becomes a man of integrity? Wouldnt that be a rare man that suddenly becomes full of integrity where none was had before? I would love to forgive and have my world repaired and continue on for 30 years... I think the actions of the caught-cheater would need to be so specifically geared to a complete understanding of why they cheated and open and honest dialogue about why it happened and what makes it not going to happen again... and really, I feel that anyone with that much integrity probably would have had the insight to have these conversations before the infidelity occurred. Also, it seems more likely that it would be a one-night _mistake _rather than an affair that could be forgiven, forgotten and a basis for growth rather than divorce...


Thanks for replying to me specifically. I have read your other thread on this man You may be able to forgive him someday. But unless he changes you will not be able to rely on him. I believe someone posted that he doesn't seem to think he did anything very wrong. He can't change and become the man you can trust again until that attitude changes. SO, you can forgive and seperate. You can wait for him to come to the realization that he needs to change (counseling may help) And for him to change, and after all that then you can forgive and find happiness with him. If you can forgive, if you can get over the very serious betrayal. and that will be as hard for you as it is for him to change. 
I don't want you to feel bad or hopeless. Marriages end. It's not your fault. It is his fault and he hasn't even apologised.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Mr. Nail said:


> Diana once again you are referring to a christianity that I have never encountered. I'm sure that my wedding vows were not, Do you MN promise to not have sex with anyone but this woman, But not specifically to actually have sex with this woman, especially in the ways she desires, and do you promise to love and cherish this puppy and do you promise to honor this political party, and if it is convenient check in with your spouse once a month or so. Now as to "countless millions of good faithful men and women" What good are they to me? Are they on my kids soccer team? Am I supposed to get my emotional support from them? And last but certainly not least (this does return to the topic of this thread) How do I tell them from the countless millions x2 adulterous sexual cheaters? Because that is how the math really works.


Why do you think that God gives us families, friends, children, church families, and so many other things in life to enjoy and experience if we only need one person? No one person can possibly hope to fufill everything that we want and need. Nor should they have to. Our spouse is very important, we need to spend time and energy on them and our marriage, but there is so much more for us to enjoy as a couple and sometimes separately if we have different hobbies, interests, sports, careers etc. There is always a balance in life. I woud have no issues at all if my husband had interests that I didnt share. Why would I? Its not being unfaithful in the least. Its all part of the rich life God has given us.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Insanity022 said:


> Love all that...but that is just it...that is part of the ongoing after math for the non-cheating partner, that is the dilemma... Do I take him/her back and trust he now becomes a man of integrity? Wouldnt that be a rare man that suddenly becomes full of integrity where none was had before? I would love to forgive and have my world repaired and continue on for 30 years... I think the actions of the caught-cheater would need to be so specifically geared to a complete understanding of why they cheated and open and honest dialogue about why it happened and what makes it not going to happen again... and really, I feel that anyone with that much integrity probably would have had the insight to have these conversations before the infidelity occurred. Also, it seems more likely that it would be a one-night _mistake _rather than an affair that could be forgiven, forgotten and a basis for growth rather than divorce...


I do know a few people who have stayed in a marriage after cheating. Some sadly went on to be betrayed again. Once the trust has gone, it must be almost impossible to trust again. Not sure I could do it. Personally I couldn't trust a man who had ever cheated before on anyone, even if they were single and had an affair with a married person. To me it would show that their values weren't what I wanted in a man and that they had poor or no boundaries.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

:::Sigh:::
I'm tired of this thread jack now. Abraham arguably the most righteous man in the old testament, lived in a tent and went to church every 50 years or so. His wife handed him over to another woman.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Insanity022 said:


> O000hh so It's not the other person, It's my fault for choosing that person... I see. I guess with the number of cheaters around, it was destine to happen, regardless of how insightful my "picker" is/was. I am 56 years old and this is the first time I have been cheated on by someone I loved. If we look at the years and percentages I have to feel I have a decent picker...but that the man is not decent.


Well it's always on the person who cheats, but that is really no consolation after you have been cheated on. Anyway that wasn't meant as an insult but as a warning that there are bad people out there. There are plenty of people whose picker IS broken and they get cheated on over and over.

It's interesting that you got cheated on once and now you assume all men are bad. I assumed it took more then one time to have your write off a whole gender. Which is where my advice came from.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> Well. let me clarify the "hard work". My marriage isn't "hard" to deal with at all. I meant rather that it is continual work -- don't neglect each other, talk all the time, work out your differences, spend time together having fun as well as the every-day stuff.
> ALL marriages I think DO go through "tough times" but by and large, we've gotten through those with communication and caring about the other person and listening.
> 
> I think many times that folks get complacent where "hey we are married" and then get caught up in the day-to-day and sort of take their spouse for granted. If this goes on long enough, REAL troubles happen because resentment builds up, issues don't get resolved and before you know it "leaving the cap off the toothpaste" becomes a major blow out.
> ...


This is a great perspective, and wise advice. Thank you.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yes historically this is somewhat true. Mosaic law punished adultery with death, while the punishment for infidelity was only divorce.
> So adultery is different than infidelity.
> What I am talking about is Cheating
> Adultery is cheating.
> ...


Promise to refrain from sexual intercourse wirh others.....that is the "promise to forsake all orhers until death do you part"


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

From my personal, anecdotal view, I've seen far more marriages wrecked by cheating wives than husbands. I'm on marriage #2, was cheated on but never cheated. But I was in a military environment so not reflective of most situations. The faithful are out there but from what I'm reading today's young people might as well give up on long-term, committed relationships. Sadly the current marriage rate (lowest in history, since the 1870's) shows that they have for the most part.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

According to the statistics that I've found, roughly a quarter of men cheat during their lifetime. If you are observing a higher incidence, you may want to examine how you are picking or evaluating potential mates.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

To the men saying they've seen many more marriages end due to the wife cheating than the man, do you think that might be because the man is your friend and therefore you're going to hear from him about what has been happening when he comes out as the good guy vs if your male friends are cheating and their wife doesn't leave them so they don't bring it up to their friends? I ask because my experience has been different...I've seen more marriage end due to the husband cheating than the woman. 

When someone has been wronged they are far more likely to share that with their friends than if they themselves have done the wrong doing. 

I know there are people of both sex who simply do not cheat. Speaking for myself, I had every reason to want to cheat. My exH ignored me sexually and then every other way for about 14 years. I was told when I first came here that I must have someone on the side. I did not. I waited to start up a new relationship until I had ended my marriage. And I'm glad I did because my current relationship has no stain upon it. I can freely enjoy it guilt free. I don't understand how anyone can really enjoy a new relationship when it has the stain of adultery on it.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I believe if men have opportunity, they usually take it, if they think they can without getting caught. That said, there are men who will live like that single but have an ethic that once they marry or have kids, they will do their best. But even they often find reasons to justify it. 

The key is to get to know someone well enough that you know their ethics about everything. Do they do their best at work or do they find opportunities to slack off or go in late? Are they the type who just will do the best they can do at whatever they're doing and not just the stuff or jobs they like and want to do? 

Are they deceitful with friends or family? Do they lie to get out of things? 

And then their basic lifestyle or personality, are they excitement seekers (nothing wrong with that) or are they more settled down? 

Are they selfish about sex? Is frequency of sex going to be a make or break issue with them? Because the honeymoon doesn't last forever. 

Do they have good boundaries around your friends and out in public, or does he kind of flirt with people and oggle waitresses? Does he make excuses for this, saying all men do it? 

Does he have other interests other than sex and work, or is that his whole bubble? 

Does he have resentment toward women in general? 

Look for good general ethics and boundaries and behavior. Don't overlook these things when dating because you want it to work. Too many women do that.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> To the men saying they've seen many more marriages end due to the wife cheating than the man, do you think that might be because the man is your friend and therefore you're going to hear from him about what has been happening when he comes out as the good guy vs if your male friends are cheating and their wife doesn't leave them so they don't bring it up to their friends? I ask because my experience has been different...I've seen more marriage end due to the husband cheating than the woman.


I've done extensive research and know just as many men cheat but it isn't evenly in every area.

My experience has been obtained through ministry and personal knowledge and I can absolutely verify that the women in my sphere were cheating like goats in heat compared to the men. 

I know through forums and studies that men are cheating just as much but they weren't in my sphere for sure.

It has been really weird witnessing it and, if I didn't have other data, I would start to think there was some kind of experiment being performed that caused faithlessness in women.

This last week, another friend had his wife decide to **** around on him and she isn't even hiding it, claiming she wants a separation and maybe a divorce later but the stupid ho thinks her husband will be a doormat and wait for her. I have helped him get his legal ducks in a row and she will be served soon. She has know idea what's coming. She has been hanging out with like minded women with multiple divorces and broken families under their collective belts and all of them are promiscuous and faithless.

There is a large portion of women in my sphere who are like this to varying degrees.

There are also some outstanding women to be sure but the majority of cheating in marriage has been done by the women in this barbarian's life.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> This last week, another friend had his wife decide to **** around on him and she isn't even hiding it, claiming she wants a separation and maybe a divorce later but the stupid ho thinks her husband will be a doormat and wait for her. I have helped him get his legal ducks in a row and she will be served soon. She has know idea what's coming. She has been hanging out with like minded women with multiple divorces and broken families under their collective belts and all of them are promiscuous and faithless.
> 
> There are also some outstanding women to be sure but the majority of cheating in marriage has been done by the women in this barbarian's life.


Interesting. I call those toxic friends. I am sure my BF's exwife was surrounded by them. She was very heavy, had bariatric surgery and got much thinner, and her friends all told her she could have any guy she wanted. Had to go out and see what she was missing on. So she did...cheated, ended the marriage, and guess what, now she's all alone and miserable. Last week we were at a family get together for their son and she was whining to me about how she's alone and there's nobody out there. Then went on and on telling me how lucky I am to have her exH as my boyfriend and went on and on about his good qualities. Um thanks...I know all that all own my own. LOL I told him I think she wants him back as she also sent him a Happy Anniversary text a couple weeks go and he was very matter of fact as he said "nope...we don't work together and never will and I'm so much happier now" and I'm sure he wanted to reassure me but also, she SHREDDED his heart. Took him 2 years to get back to some semblance of life and we started dating about 6 months after that. I believe him when he says he'd never go back to her, ever. She's been taken care of her entire adult life and now she's alone and has to take care of herself and she HATES it. Oh well.

I wonder why you are surrounded by so many toxic females? My theory was wrong but there has to be some reason. You must be a magnet for them. LOL


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I think it's worth a reminder here that if you're still just dating someone and there's been no specific conversation about being exclusive to each other -- it's not cheating. 

No matter how much they act like they love you when you're alone together. 
No matter what they say when they're about to have sex or having it. 
If you don't have a commitment, you don't have one. 

It's hurtful, yes, and it can hurt just as much as cheating when you had a commitment because when people are in love, they think the other person must feel the same way, when sometimes that man is just in love with sex. Young people often think that because their feelings and hopes are so high, that they are destined for one another and assume it is mutual, but if there's no commitment, the sad reality is it may be one sided or the timing may be off. 

I know a guy who acted like he was in love with every woman he slept with. I think he really thought he might be at the moment, but he went from one to another. I wish I knew if he had been faithful once he finally married, but I really doubt it. I know him pretty well. 

One of the hardest realities to accept is that just because you fall for someone doesn't mean they feel the same way or even if they do, that they will act as you will and be loyal.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

I learned that the hard way at age 20 and never made that mistake again.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

In my country from what I've seen cheating is now socially acceptable. It is not only justified but even encouraged. I'm guessing it's similar over where you guys live, however, it shouldn't bother people.

You see, simply don't rely on floating icebergs but rather pillars of stone amidst a raging ocean. In other words, most people go with the flow, they follow, they allow others to influence them, their decisions are weak and easily voided, hell they even melt. Floating icebergs so to speak. Some individuals, no matter what the ocean throws at them they don't compromise one bit in who they are. They hold high standards for themselves (as well as their partners) as it should be.

That, in addition with other qualities - as this alone doesn't mean they won't cheat - is an important quality in my opinion.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> I wonder why you are surrounded by so many toxic females? My theory was wrong but there has to be some reason. You must be a magnet for them. LOL


WOW! Interesting story about your boyfriend's ex. Thanks for sharing it.

I myself haven't had serious problems with being in relationships with women who cheat.

I have been around an alarming amount of women who behave pretty bad, starting with my own mother. She finally grew up but sadly not before I did.

I've also seen terrible behavior from men growing up and Mrs. Conan has as well.

I'm not convinced cheating is gender centric at all but equal opportunity.

I might have started a thread about how many friends have had their wives cheat on them and acquaintances as well.

I would be very interested in finding some points of data to figure out what is happening in my sphere because it does seem off.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> That is the drinking water principle.
> 
> That one drop of sewage renders a reservoir of drinking water nonpotable and basically turns it into a body of sewage.
> 
> That assumption is a 60 year old woman that has been a faithful wife and doting mother for 40 years has ‘failed’ at marriage and fidelity if she gets with some guy at a trade convention one night.


she has failed. it is not the number of times that she banged her OM.
rather that she banged an OM.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

notmyjamie said:


> To the men saying they've seen many more marriages end due to the wife cheating than the man, do you think that might be because the man is your friend and therefore you're going to hear from him about what has been happening when he comes out as the good guy vs if your male friends are cheating and their wife doesn't leave them so they don't bring it up to their friends?


Google "Millennial women cheat more than Millennial men" and begin the journey.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cromer said:


> Google "Millennial women cheat more than Millennial men" and begin the journey.


And Millennial men will make up the difference when those women get older.


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