# Limbo - need advice please



## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

I've been lurking for about a year, but just now am getting courage to post.

I had not found TAM earlier, and confronted too soon and am stuck in Limbo - in several ways. Now I am stuck and need advice, especially from those in California.

H and I together 17 years 3 children 8 and under. My H. has a job that he can work at home anytime he wants. I have a FT job that isn't flexible and has very little vacation or sick pay. One of our kids needs regular occupational therapy, which he takes her to. H makes more, has better benefits. We have seperate accounts for everything, which we decided on prior to M.

About a year ago, I got a nagging feeling he was hiding something for a while. He has always been somewhat private, and I have always been extremely jealous and slow to trust anyone, and have often thought there was fire where there was not. Every time I had that feeling with him, he was hiding something. Not about fidelity, but about other things I didn't suspect- white lies, money, etc.

After being hurt several times by such things, about 5 years ago I withdrew and stopped being affectionate and speaking with him about any interests, etc. He has not shown any interest in spending time alone on dates without the kids, until a little while after the confrontations. HE had complained about me not acting interested and being unaffectionate, but I didn't listen because I THOUGHT I was protecting myself emotionally. There also was some incompatibility of desires/likes in the bedroom. Since the confrontation he has shown more interest in me, been more attentive and wanting to spend time with me more. He has been treating me WELL again, most of the time, instead of the confrontational and critical person he had been for a few years. Don't know if it matters or is an indicator of anything (then or now).

The last 5 years he has started exercising. I found aftershave with pheramones. He claimed it was just what he grabbed and didn't check it out.

I had noticed he was getting even a little more private about his technology. I mentioned his phone was always locked, etc. which he started to avoid accidental pocket calls. One day he left his phone unlocked, and I looked at his browser history. He had looked up several local escorts, about 8. Unfortunately, I confronted him too soon/ right away, and he made up some BS story. I asked him if he had used an escort, and he said no in a calm manner. I told him right then and there that I did not accept cheating of any kind, gave a list of examples, or we were done. When I said the last, he looked a little shocked. He looked very sad, and GUILTY a bit. The guilty look was after the last statement (that is not a PA) but I do not know if is was something in the string of things, or just the last thing in the list comment. Would not admit to anything. Pulls the "sad we're fighting / it is insulting you think I would do that" bit.

Later I found he had subscribed to a porn site. When I confronted him he got all sly/defensive/angry, too. Hmmm. Previously he said he was "never that into it".

Now here's where it gets tricky. I know he had control and privacy issues with his abusive family, prior GFs. I know he played games with his ex-GFs and planted "false" things to get them upset and expose them. H acted indignant that I snooped, and told me it is illegal. I looked it up - besides the federal wiretapping laws, in CA it is illegal to record, etc. if there is an "expectation of privacy", Which means that it (almost definitely is) illegal to use a VAR or keylogger. Also, H is a genius with technology and I have no doubt if he thinks I am snooping, he would find anything I did, and at best mess with me for revenge, and at worst, try to have me arrested or fined. Yes, I know DAs usually have more important things to do than prosecute, but examples are made occassionally (rarely), and I don't want to be that example. I am also positive if the worst happened and things were to fall apart, my H would want custody of the kids, and would try to use that to his advantage. 

I went on a rampage and started checking all of our phone bills, and AGAIN made the mistake of confronting too soon. I confronted about several numbers on the bill. Long story short is I know I confronted him about something I found out that he definitely had nothing to hide. However,this crushed me because i know he acted with this indignant/angry/defensive whether or not he is guilty of anything. How the Heck to tell? Also, I strongly suspect he is using software to take calls and/or texts to others, now. I have no proof, but I'm pretty positive. If it were anyone else in the world, I would say this is a DEFINITE cheat sign, but I am iffy on this. My H is enough of a control freak/vindictive person he would do it just so he wouldn't have to "deal with me", or even to "get back at me". He's done things like that to others.

I want to hire a PI, but I can't afford it. I looked into borrowing / loaning money, and can't make it happen. I did speak to a PI I happen to know. He said there wasn't much he could do for me even if I could afford to hire him- if my H is that technically savvy, other than physical reconnaissance. If it is just escorts some men only go to them every so often, not all the time, maybe every couple months due to cost. He said his calm reaction (which is less common for him) makes him believe he might have been telling the truth about not having gone to escorts, but can't tell. he said men get defensive and angry when confronted when guilty. He said his reaction to the porn thing means he was feeling guilty, etc.

If we didn't have kids, even though I am still madly in love with him, I am nearing the point where I would tell him either he goes to counseling with me, work on issues on how we treat eachother, and he needs to comes clean about everything, or I'm done. I am tired of being hurt, don't like how he sometimes treats me and possibly our kids, on top of the other stuff. However, we DO have kids and that makes things much more complicated. And before coming to any sort of conclusion on that for myself, as to what that may mean to me in actuality in logistics with the kids(from the range of attempting to redefine our relationship, or try to stop caring about him, try to negotiate being co-parenting roommates,or more physical separations, etc.), and wanting to prepare myself for the "worst case scenarios" of fallout in any confrontation, plan of action, or discussions that might come up, I saved up and shelled 400 to speak to a very good attorney. NOT to leave, I still love him and was hoping to work it out somehow, but I wanted to know how to best protect myself and my kids just in case of worse case scenario due to his recent behavior and to know realistic possibilities(if he ran off with an escort or a mistress or if he left me). Again, it gets worse. Apparently, in CA judges try to give split/joint custody most of the time. Mothers often do get primary physical custody, depending on the judge's prejudice. However, I would almost definitly be stuck in the county we live in, where i have no support . HOWEVER, if he were to fight for primary custody, there is a good chance he COULD get primary because of his work flexibility and taking our daughter to therapy, and his better finances for attorneys to fight. And even though he makes much more than me, if that were to happen I might end up having to pay him child support! I really don't care about $$$, I care about having primary physical custody of the kids and needing support. Even if the worst happened and things fell apart, and it DID come down to split/joint custody, I really need to work out and figure out if he is being emotionally or verbally abusive to our kids (see below). Even if he is not, I worry about how he might act if there wasn't someone else around to check him. 

Recently I was told by my cousin, who is a psychologist and VERY objective, that she thinks he is abusive to me "the way he speaks to me". She brought it up to me without me saying anything (never spoke to her about our relationship, at all!). I had several friends tell me this before, but I dismissed it because they usually are the types to be one sided/protective. Now I'm really hearing it, and I believe her. I am also concerned with how he treats the kids. Not going to get into details, but there are some behaviors that definitely bother me. I am thinking about this now, trying to figure out for sure if he is also emotionally abusive to the kids, and how to protect them if he is, and if so make it stop. My understanding from atty consult is courts don't take that sort of thing seriously or into account unless there is physical abuse or the emotional abuse is severe.

So here's where I am now. I am kicking myself for confronting too soon and feel like I do not have options to find out the truth. I would love it if things would work out, but H vehemently refuses to go to counseling.

Above all, I do not want to risk losing my children, and need to figure out if I need to protect them from him. I don't think I have any options, but am posting here just in case someone has some good advice for me. 

So does anyone in California know the laws in what I can legally do to find anything else out since I blew it? OR know anything about custody, work, etc? I cannot afford another consult. What would you do at this point? I feel so betrayed, lost, and trapped, and STUPID for confronting too soon.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

I am sorry that you are going thru this rotten experience.

I do hope you are documenting any abuse of your children. How old are they?

I hope you have read about the 180. It is a tool to help you cope with your feelings about your H. 

Will you H pay for you to go to counseling, even if he will not go with you, like you mentioned? I do see you have a relative that has observed some behaviors, but it would be good to see a counselor that is not objective.

You are not powerless in your situation. You do not have to sit and take the treatment that you receive at this time. If you can not change, or will not change, ask calmly if he will leave. You may have to rely on family to help with your children, but sometimes you can't take bad treatment forever.

I hope you can find something to do that you and your children like to do this week. Make a good memory now.


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## Visionknower (Oct 14, 2013)

You are being bullied and deceived. Hire a professional Private investigator that is tech savvy and let them do this job. Your Husband is lying to you. You need someone that knows what they are doing, that knows the local escort circuits and that would not be one bit intimidated or hampered by your husband’s “tech genius". Don't make their job difficult by giving your H any more reason to think you are on to him. He needs to think you have been intimidated by his bullying, have bought his lies and denial and have let it go. 

It seems very likely that your H is using prostitutes and may have been doing so for a while. It is very likely that you may be dealing with a person that is living a double life and feels entitled to do so at your expense. Protect yourself. Get tested for STD. Trust your instincts, you already know your H lies and it seems he enjoys tormenting you.

You may want to read up on sex and porn addiction. Lying about porn and using prostitutes along with being passive aggressive, insisting on his privacy ( also known as hiding things from your spouse) locking his phone, denial and gas lighting all these things are going on and these things are exactly what SA do. It also seems very likely that you are getting ready to find out who your H really is and that it may be very disturbing. So prepare yourself to know the truth and to deal with it stealthily Many studies consistently revealed that men that use prostitutes are also very often dealing with pathology like attachment disorders, intimacy issues, character disturbances , misogyny, sexual deviance and other more serious psychological issues like personality disorders. 

Can you change jobs, or find a more flexible job? Get as much of the factual truth as you possibly can and then decide what course of action to take. It sounds like you think your H would not have a problem at all with selfishly throwing you under the bus if it came to that. Whatever you do trust your instincts unflinchingly. Do not allow your H to confuse you in any way. You may not know the details and you may not have proof that you can put your finger on yet but your gut instincts knows something is going on that is endangering you and your marriage and you probably even know the nature of what this is. Trust this.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Your H has good benefits, aren't you on his insurance? When I found ANY hint of my H doing stuff online where PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY MEET? That is not "porn", that is seeking sexual partners outside of the marriage.

I am sorry your H is doing this to you. Here's what I did:

1. Make an appt. with your ob/gyn, get tested. Use his insurance card, you are his wife!

2. Make an appt. with a counselor/therapist. Again, you both work, none of this should be a problem for you.

3. Stop sleeping with him! Tell him point blank there is no reason to have sex with a husband who is contacting escorts. You have your children to think of for goodness sake.

Decide what you want R or D. You can get free consults with lawyers concerning D if that is your choice.

Don't do nothing. That is the worst choice of all.

Please take care of yourself.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

sol_lost said:


> Now here's where it gets tricky. I know he had control and privacy issues with his abusive family, prior GFs. I know he played games with his ex-GFs and planted "false" things to get them upset and expose them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He may well have planted things, however, you only 'know' this because this is what HE told you. 

My man told me stories about his ex's new bf being jealous etc. That she asked him to send naughty messages to him because she knew he was looking at her phone. J think this was a cover in case I was looking in his phone. He was sending naughty messages to her because he was sleeping with her. 

Also, my father (mental health problems) had an 'abusive' wife and an 'awful' sister. He told stories to his wife about his family, and his family about his wife. I think this was to keep them apart. 

Your husband sounds seriously damaged. I would start reading between the lines of his behaviour if I was you. Take NOTHING at face value.

The 'calm' reaction is also an indication of lying. You ask me a shocking question, I answer a calm and short answer. That is unnatural. Did he look puzzled and ask how you would think that? What made you think that? Did he allay your fears and make you feel better with his answer? I doubt it! 

I hope you find a way out of the difficulties you are in. Sorry for my lack of advice, but I am sure there will be much coming. Hold tight!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I think you are giving your husband too much credit on the techno side. If he is cheating these things have a way of revealing themselves, so keep your eyes opened.

One critical note. You both created a way to keep things secret at the beginning of your marriage by having separate accounts, etc. Both of you tend to keep things to yourselves.


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

*thanks Re: Limbo - need advice please*

Thank you all for your replies. Bold/Italics are not "yelling" just bolding as the reply is rather long, and highlighting further responses and questions. Thanks all who answered for taking the time to read and giving me your advice, thoughts, and opinions.

*harrybrown*
"You are not powerless in your situation. You do not have to sit and take the treatment that you receive at this time. If you can not change, or will not change, ask calmly if he will leave. You may have to rely on family to help with your children, but sometimes you can't take bad treatment forever."

Thank you. I think *if I could get proof*, and if nothing changes (treated better, compete transparency, etc), I would want to ask him to leave. I couldn’t make him go, but I could ask. I would need to make sure of the other stuff beforehand (hopefully a better job, if he is emotionally abusing them, etc). My family and friends do not live close by enough to help with the kids, even if he would leave. I know they would help if I could move in with them. However, I am pretty darn sure my H would try to get custody if it came to that, and *if there was any sort of fight, which would be far the most likely scenerio, I would not be able to move.*

Yes, I have been documenting everything that makes me feel uncomfortable with the kids for a few months now. It makes me very uncomfortable, as do the few people I've told details to, but I'm not sure it would be considered abuse. I am still trying to figure that out. If it is, emotional/verbal abuse is very difficult to prove unless it is extreme. I am documenting everything (ie what happened, H’s reaction, posture, voice, movements, actions). The last thing that concerned me happened on Christmas.

Sorry, I do not want to disclose the age of my kids, because I fear that information might give too much identifying information. They will all be school aged this next school year, under 8.

I have been looking for a better paying / more flexible job very actively for 3 years. No luck yet, still trying. Job market is very, very tight, and jobs like that in my field are very rare. Most jobs in my field have even worse hours, but better pay. Can/will still keep trying. Haven’t looked for a few months – it is hard to look when your world is crumbling down. I *do wonder, would it be to my benefit, legally as far as custody goes, if I didn't have a job? Or better if I worked only part time? I would still need to find a full time job if we split, which would put me back in the same position, but I would have a chance of having established myself as primary caregiver. Thoughts?*

I am working on, and have the ability, to get counseling for myself. H would not pay. 

*Visionknower*
"You are being bullied and deceived. Hire a professional Private investigator that is tech savvy and let them do this job. Your Husband is lying to you. You need someone that knows what they are doing, that knows the local escort circuits and that would not be one bit intimidated or hampered by your husband’s “tech genius". Don't make their job difficult by giving your H any more reason to think you are on to him. He needs to think you have been intimidated by his bullying, have bought his lies and denial and have let it go."

Thank you for your honest, and blunt opinion. This is something that is so very, very important to me. I wish I had more people in my personal life who would be this honest with their opinions.

I definitely would prefer your course of action to start, if I could. Unfortunately, I cannot / have no way to hire a PI. I really, really want to. *I was told it cost thousands and thousands of dollars at a minimum. I would need to save up for years to be able to do so*. I have asked who I can ask to borrow, and they said absolutely not for THAT. Have not been able to figure out another way to get funds. I*f you have any suggestions on how to acquire funds for a PI without H knowing, I really, really, would love them and will use them! *You are right, my gut knows something is wrong, and at the very least, I can't trust H at all. I hate liars. I have no idea how I ended up with one.

Oh, and yes I am POSITIVE he is the type who would throw me under the bus if he felt "wronged", but especially if he thought it would help with custody. I am 100% positive he would want as much custody as possible, if it came to a split.

*LostWifeCrushed*
"1. Make an appt. with your ob/gyn, get tested. Use his insurance card, you are his wife!
2. Make an appt. with a counselor/therapist. Again, you both work, none of this should be a problem for you.
3. Stop sleeping with him! Tell him point blank there is no reason to have sex with a husband who is contacting escorts. You have your children to think of for goodness sake.
Decide what you want R or D. You can get free consults with lawyers concerning D if that is your choice."

1) I WILL get STD tested again. I have my annual coming up in the next few months, so this will be easy to do. I'll try to push this up as much as I can.
2) Have been going as I could afford, and am working on finding a good long term one.
4) Unfortunately, this all started a while ago.I did *all* of the wrong things. I tried to "nice" back his affections, too . *At this point, is there a way to / any ideas on how to stop sleeping with him, without raising his suspicions that I still strongly suspect? I REALLY, REALLY would like to start with visionknower's suggestion first, if there is any way I can make it happen (at all due to finances), let alone without tipping him off?*

*Remains*
"He may well have planted things, however, you only 'know' this because this is what HE told you."
"The 'calm' reaction is also an indication of lying. You ask me a shocking question, I answer a calm and short answer. That is unnatural. Did he look puzzled and ask how you would think that? What made you think that? Did he allay your fears and make you feel better with his answer? I doubt it!"

1) True, I only know because he volunteered that stuff about himself. It was in a he was bragging about his tech skills type thing in an unrelated discussion, then several discussions over years about some of his Xs. That was before any of this was discovered. My H is a liar, but (I think) he is a bad liar. I usually don't know what he is lying about, but (I think) every time he lies, I KNOW it is bull**** to some capacity. I know when something's off, I just have a very hard time finding out WHAT. 

2) Possibly. He did act a little puzzled at my first question, then was calm, etc. when I told him I found the escorts on his phone history. He used to act this way when we 1st got married, but over time and especially the last few years is usually angry and defensive and aggressive when I ask ANYTHING he has done or not done that is a sore point for me or for him. I* thought it was odd that he was this calm when the last few years he often is not.The only reason why I believed the PI opinion might possibly be right (at that time) is H has some body language that always gives him away when he is upset/stressed and there was none of this at the first confrontation*. He was calm and "tried to reassure me" (with a lie - I can't prove it is a lie but I know it is) at first. Later, he did get upset/angry/ defensive as usual when I called him on the BS story he made up about why he looked them up (started asking specific questions he could not answer, of course, because it was made up). The PI I know told me (no offense to anyone here, this is just a direct quote) when I asked why on earth men would look up escorts without seeing one, "Who knows. Men are dogs. They get off on weird things. I don't believe the story he told you about why he was looking at them, though". FYI, the PI thought he HAD gone and done it before I told him H's initial reaction then he changed his opinion, even after I told him recently H is usually defensive / aggressive and rarely calm. To be honest, at that point of time AFTER my conversation with the PI I know I thought this might have been it - weird fanticizing and probably considering or planning to do it, but hadn't actually done anything about it. You guys are probably right, though. *Even if he hadn't at that time, he may have since, or may soon. *
*
Thorburn*
Yes. I am keeping my eyes open constantly and hoping and trying for more on the job and money front. I feel so lost I don't feel like there is anything I can do to get proof and / or escape the current situation. I have had LOTS of final interviews but have not been offered a new job. That is all I have right now and I really wish there were more options. And you are right. At the time we thought it was a good idea because we weren't planning on kids, and have seen too many people fight over dumb things like buying lunch at work.

I was attracted to him because he seemed brutally honest and did not tolerate being cheated on with Xs. I have no idea how my judgment was so bad that I ended up married to a liar


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

*I was attracted to him because he seemed brutally honest and did not tolerate being cheated on with Xs. I have no idea how my judgment was so bad that I ended up married to a liar  *

Anyone who goes through infidelity is typically blindsided. I was married for 30 years last year and my wife cheated on me in 1999 and then from 2010 till 2013. She finally repented and came clean on everything. There are some of her family members who feel she cheated on me when I was in Iraq when I deployed from 2008 till late 2009. I only have one confession from my one son's friend but his story is fairly lame and it did not involve sex, but he felt it might have led to it. My wife denied and still denies his story. 

I would have never thought my wife would have been capable of it and then add the multiple times is just unbelievable. 

As hurtful as the cheating was to me, it was the lies that really burned me up. My wife's lies were even about small things that she did not have to lie about. When we started to R she told two small lies that set me off for days. She read a lenthly paper on what a B.S. goes through and it talks about lying being an issue. She got it. 

My wife lied to the XOM, her family, her friends, she lied to everyone and often times it was about dumb things that had nothing to do with anything.

Please don't beat yourself up. Try to resist it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Thorburn your wife lied to herself first. Then the other lies flowed easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

If he's a tech genius then dont try to track any of his stuff. You might have to use a var or something. I guess they are like little PIs and are cheap, and will give you your answers in short order.

Look, if he is contacting escorts and you have evidence of this, then don't sleep with him. This is ridiculous if your H forces you. I understand if you think you made mistakes handling this initially, but don't put your life at risk.

My H said the same thing, "I never met anyone in real life, I was just looking" - I said looking for what? Someone to have sex with?! Criminy! That's what escorts are for! THINK ABOUT IT.

Please take care of yourself and proceed with caution. I think he's lying to you, he is giving you the standard issue answers.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Spend this time educating yourself. The library is your friend. Start with Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men. Read any article you can find about emotional abuse, both of spouses and children. Read anything legal you can find about your rights in California. FWIK, you should be pretty protected should you get divorced. If you file, he can always prove himself and you can call off the divorce. But if you continue as is, he has no reason to treat you with more respect.


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks all. This may be a dumb question- where can I find the library?


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

sol_lost said:


> Thanks all. This may be a dumb question- where can I find the library?


Google...

Library is where they have lots of ancient artifacts called books. Go to any one around and just read and learn. If none are around such the web.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, I meant a real library. Just look up your city's website and search for 'library' and you'll find one near you.


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## Anuvia (Jul 10, 2013)

You made a conscious effort to not be affectionate with your husband. What do you expect?


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## sol_lost (Jan 13, 2014)

LOL thanks. I thought you meant there was a "library" of articles, information, etc. somewhere on the site.


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