# How to recover from wife feeling "used" for sex



## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

My wife and I are in MC right now. My wife has stated repeatedly that she just can't get over our past sexual history, where she feels that, from the beginning of our relationship to the present, I have just "used" her for sex and that I continually press her to do things that she has told me she dislikes and now it's got to the point that she can't imaging even enjoying me touching her. She outwardly blames me, but also blames herself.

My wife was not religious when we met; she was 23 and I was 25. She had two previous sexual partners - both college boyfriends. The first one she met when she was 18 and dated for 2 years; the second she dated for 3 months and she describes him as a rebound relationship. She told me that she never had an orgasm with either. She has had several over the years with me, but none since our last child was born. She also told me she regretted having sex with the second boy friend because it happened too quickly and he became very clingy (talking about marriage, etc.) After that she dated several guys but did not have sex with anyone else until me who she met 3 years after the second boyfriend. I do not believe she has a history of sexual abuse.

In our previous MC, my wife informed me that she had regrets about how quickly into our relationship we had sex. We met and sparks flew very quickly and we dated several times a week. After the third week, we went to a party with friends. I drove her and her roommate back to her apartment at around 1 am. We had been very physically affectionate that night and she had been drinking (I had a little, but not as much as her). It's a little fuzzy to me on who brought up the subject, but it was soon agreed that she wanted to come back to my apartment. We then made out on my bed (as opposed to the couch where it previously happened). We both were groping each other very passionately. Even though I had sex with one other person (my ex-wife who I had dated since 18 and had been divorced from for 1.5 years), I was pretty sure we were going to have sex. While she was on top of me, I grabbed a condom out of my wallet (it had been there a while) and put it on. She apparently did not see me do this. We then started having sex - she said "I think we should wait. I responded it's ok" and we started with her on top. After about 30-60 seconds she asked about "protection." I said I was already wearing a condom. Sex then continued for a couple of hours (we both commented later that we had a lot of built up sexual energy). She basically moved in to my apartment within weeks of then and we had sex just about every night. I was 25 and had gone about 2 years without sex. I thought everything was awesome. We got engaged about 14 months into our relationship and married after about 2.5 years of dating. We moved in together before getting married, but her parents never "officially" knew.

My wife is starting EMDR therapy as part of our MC. I am too (too get over issues related mostly to me ex-wife). During this session she discussed her history. Much of this apparently dealt with our sexual history. My wife originally told me it went well, but the next day said that she realizes it is going to take a long time to recover from the severe trauma she has suffered in our sexual past. Her disclosing this "revelation" ultimately resulted in a huge fight after she discussed some of the details, but then refused to engage with me to hear my perspective. Now we are not talking and she's extremely mad at me for "minimizing and blaming her for her trauma."

I think a lot of this has to do with the guilt she has for us having sex quickly. She told me that she regrets having sex so soon, but after the first night, since she is a "people pleaser" she kept going to make me happy even though it made her uncomfortable. She also became a Christian after we had kids (we have 3 and her conversion started about 8-10 years ago).

I told her that I have a ton of respect for her and that I would pummel anyone who questioned her virtue. I also said it was pretty obvious to me that she really enjoyed having sex, especially in those early years because she orgasmed often (her first orgasm was a real screamer and it probably woke up everyone in the nearby apartments). She basically said she had only had orgasms when she had been drinking. She also said that other sex acts I am confident she enjoyed (e.g., anal - which she now refuses to even consider) she never enjoyed and only did it to please me or because she was drunk. I know that happened many times, but she also had a couple of orgasms during this as well.

She says that she was traumatized by our sex life because she felt pressure to engage in acts she felt uncomfortable doing but did so just to please me. If she didn't do them, I got passive aggressive and upset, so she gave in, which built resentment in her. This caused her to shut down a lot, which caused me to get upset when she was passionless in bed, which caused her to feel pain, which created a huge cycle of conflict.

She is going to continue in EMDR therapy to get over her trauma, but it's frustrating for me to deal with a complete lack of intimacy. (Sex has been off the table for about 7 weeks and now we are barely talking to each other).

I know I created this problem. Any suggestions on how to fix it?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh this is good. So because she had no voice and couldn't utter the word NO she's traumatized?

I completely disagree you did NOT cause this problem she did.

She's looking for an out so she no longer has to have sex with you. Ever.

And what's worse she's blaming it on you.

Nice.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The anger between the two of you is probably because neither of you feel that the other is actually listening to you.

She tried to tell you her truth. You responded by trying to tell her your perspective. That's not a good move. This is a defensive move. She just told you that she felt you use passive aggressive ways to push her into doing things she does not feel comfortable doing. So what was your response? To try to tell her your perspective. She most likely saw that as you using passive aggressive actions/words to tell her that she was full of it. That she was wrong from your perspective.

Yea she's mad at you.. you did it again.

Both of you need to learn how to communicate. 

What should you have done? You should have accepted her point of view as valid. Listen to her. Do not interrupt. When she is done, repeat back to her what you hear her say. That's an affirmation. That tells her that you really hear HER. You apologizing for being such a dunderhead that you had no idea what was going on in her head is a good idea as well.

Then over time you can talk with her about how you are not a mind reader and she has to tell you these things. She needs to learn to be assertive. She cannot blame you for things if she is not assertive enough to tell you what she really feels/believes. Then you have to make it safe for her to tell you what she really feels by you not being defensive when she tells you.

Later you can give your point of view. 

Perhaps you can talk to a counselor about how to communicate... there are talking techniques you both can use. It can be learned.

Apparently you need to learn to accept it when your wife says she does not want to do something. Your wife has matured and is learning to stand up for what she really wants and feels. 

Apparently this is very hard for you to handle. I can understand that you are confused because she has not been honest with you all this time. That’s not very good of her at all. How terrible that she would do this in something as serious as your relationship. 

There is another thing that might be going on here. Often, when a person is not happy in their relationship, their current point of view becomes a prism through which they view the past relationship. 

For example, let’s say that in the past you were a bit pushy in your sex life but she enjoyed what you pushed/encouraged her to do. But today she’s not happy in your relationship. Since she is unhappy in the relationship now, now she does not want to engage in very intimate things with you. So now she looks back at the past and all she sees through the unhappy lens is how she really did not want to do the things that she really did enjoy in the past. 

Now what do you do about it? Where there once was passion and love, it can thrive again. Get the book “His Needs, Her Needs” and read it. Don’t ask her to read it at this time. She will just view it as you trying to manipulative right now. I would actually read it away from home at this point so that she does not see it at all. Read it and start using what it teaches you in how to negotiate meeting each other’s needs. 

One of your wife’s needs is apparently that you listen to her when she says that she does not want to do something. She needs for you to spend time letting her talk, time with also acknowledging that you really hear her and respect her. 

Make sure that the two of you spend at least 15 hours a week together, just the two of you, doing things that you both enjoy. The book talks about that. But start slow.. adding only an hour or so a week to want you already spend together. If you two have not spent that kind of time together for a long time, she will look at a huge increase as you trying to pursued her of something.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Oh this is good. So because she had no voice and couldn't utter the word NO she's traumatized?
> 
> I completely disagree you did NOT cause this problem she did.
> 
> ...


He needs to be careful of this. By putting a time limit on the amount of time he will give her to get back to a sex life. 3-6 months should be the tops on this. If things have not improved in 3 months then he no longer has a marriage. If they have improved at 3 months, he can re-evaluate at 6 months.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Oh this is good. So because she had no voice and couldn't utter the word NO she's traumatized?
> 
> I completely disagree you did NOT cause this problem she did.
> 
> ...


Part of me feels this. When I try to focus on specifics (on this or most subjects) (like the condom incident) and explain why there's a misunderstanding - she says that I am missing the point and that the damage is "cumulative." It's frustrating.

She is to blame. But so am I. I've admitted (in previous and current MC) that I was not the most understanding and caring husband when our first two kids were born. I was working hard at my job and expected her as a stay home mom to take care of the kids, get up for the feedings, changings, etc. because I worked a lot. I also expected sex even though she was exhausted. I honestly think that is a bigger source of the problem than our pre-marriage issues. And I've tried to remedy that by being a better father, share work loads and I helped a lot more when our third child was born. 

As far as the anal sex, she has told me that she does not like it. Early on, because she was shy and we both had issues talking directly about sex, she showed me a Cosmo article about anal sex. All I remember it saying it that anal sex should not be followed by vaginal sex due to infection. After that, I made sure I followed the advice in the article. After our second child was born, when I tried to do it she said that she had hemoroids following pregnancy and she just does not like it. In the last few years, I've tried (reading that those things can go away with time) and was usually rejected, except for one time (again when she was drunk) where pursued it and she seemed to really enjoy it. She gets mad if I attempt to bring up that one time and has said "I have told you I don't like that at all, I think it's gross and you still try to slip it in." So I've told her that it's off the table for good. Still - the "trauma" is there. 

The real frustration I have, which we talked about in counseling, is that she only tells me what she does not like. She does NOT like engaging oral sex on her because she does not like the thought of me kissing her after being down there. On a REALLY good day, I might get a couple of minutes of oral sex, but she's made it known that she's not a big fan of that.

I tried suggesting we read books together, articles, discussing it in counseling etc. All progressed gets stalled before it gets going because she has what the new MC says is "safety" issues. Neither of us feels safe in the marriage and we need to rebuild that safety.

Meanwhile - my anxiety skyrockets as I continue to be sexless. 

I'm screwed (but only figuratively!).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

That one time more recently when you two had anal sex while she was drunk was probably ok because being drunk made it not hurt as much with her hemroids. There is a very high chance that she suffered a lot of discomfort in the week after that time.


I used to really like anal sex until I got a rip and then later hemoroids. It hurts. It's not going to happen ever again. I can understand the way she feels about this. And I can really understand how she feels about you pushing for anal sex for a long time even after she told you that she is no longer comfortable with it.

Why didn't you believe her when she told you this?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> He needs to be careful of this. By putting a time limit on the amount of time he will give her to get back to a sex life. 3-6 months should be the tops on this. If things have not improved in 3 months then he no longer has a marriage. If they have improved at 3 months, he can re-evaluate at 6 months.


This is excellent advice.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh puhleese.

So anal wasn't her cup of tea and it hurt but now she's "traumatized" to the point of NO SEX.

Really?

If I say I'm traumatized over housework or my job can I quit?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Oh puhleese.
> 
> So anal wasn't her cup of tea and it hurt but now she's "traumatized" to the point of NO SEX.
> 
> ...


I think that this is about her not being happy in the marriage. She's at the point where she does not want him to touch her. So this sex thing has become an issue in her mind that she can use to put up barriers.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that this is about her not being happy in the marriage. She's at the point where she does not want him to touch her. So this sex thing has become an issue in her mind that she can use to put up barriers.


Agree and she's throwing around words like "trauma" as an excuse instead of owning the part where she no longer wants him to touch her.

That's what I said - you are just being nicer about it than I am.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> Agree and she's throwing around words like "trauma" as an excuse instead of owning the part where she no longer wants him to touch her.
> 
> That's what I said - you are just being nicer about it than I am.


Yes I am being nicer. I also think that there is a way for him to work through this and get back the wife he thought he had.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> My wife and I are in MC right now. My wife has stated repeatedly that she just can't get over our past sexual history, where she feels that, from the beginning of our relationship to the present, I have just "used" her for sex and that I continually press her to do things that she has told me she dislikes and now it's got to the point that she can't imaging even enjoying me touching her. She outwardly blames me, but also blames herself.
> 
> My wife was not religious when we met; she was 23 and I was 25. She had two previous sexual partners - both college boyfriends. The first one she met when she was 18 and dated for 2 years; the second she dated for 3 months and she describes him as a rebound relationship. She told me that she never had an orgasm with either. She has had several over the years with me, but none since our last child was born. She also told me she regretted having sex with the second boy friend because it happened too quickly and he became very clingy (talking about marriage, etc.) After that she dated several guys but did not have sex with anyone else until me who she met 3 years after the second boyfriend. I do not believe she has a history of sexual abuse.
> 
> ...



If she had issues with you both having sex too early, she should of communicated that with you and waited. My wife did with me and she was 20, a virgin when we dated and had a bad ex bf.

If she had issues with certain sexual encounters and positions, again, she should of communicated that with you and held off. My wife has told me, no anal but is open to foot jobs, oral, any and other positions and even recently a small vib I bought her.

She chose to date and have sex with those 2 previous guys. That has nothing to do with you and she wasn't abused either.

She's an adult and can decide whether to have sex or not.

She said she's a people pleaser and only wanted to make you happy?! No, she's an adult and that's a lame excuse.

You dated for three weeks, went to a party, got drunk, came back to your place and both wanted to have sex. She did not say, drive me home please and I'm not ready yet.

You were wearing a condom before you started having sex, without being asked or told. Very thoughtful and mature of you.

Everything sounds good to me. My wife and I were having oral sex within a few weeks but waited until we were engaged and she was on BC before having sex and we were married at that point. First few times were painful for her, so I penetrated her, waited and pulled out, no sex. Did that for 3x before actually having sex.

MC is a good idea for help with both your sexual pasts.

She must hear your side of the issue though and not only hers. Relationships are 50 / 50 or its nothing.

If having sex with you made her feel uncomfortable and uneasy, why did she have sex with you so soon in the first place? She even said it was good and a major release for her. Again, she could of said its too soon and held off.

I too believe in Jesus "Christian" but I'm no goodie goodie. My belief has nothing to do with my sex drive and using faith as an excuse. I have a HD, period.

If certain sexual acts with you made her scared and uneasy, then she should of communicated that with you beforehand and said not this position, I don't feel comfortable with it yet, lets do this other position instead. Blaming you is not taking responsibility for her actions.

Having anal sex when you guys were drunk and she has hemeroids? She should of told you she has hemeroids and no anal sex beforehand. Then having anal sex with you drunk and now its your fault?

Now there hasn't been sex in 7 weeks and she's barely talking to you?

I also agree, wait say 3 months of no sex and if that's doesn't get her back in the mood, move on.

Wild idea. Is she seeing someone else or an ex bf?

There is something wrong with her......sorry man. I hope it works out for you both, I really do.:scratchhead:


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

Isn't EMDR for post traumatic stress disorder? This sounds crazy to me to use it for marriage issues. If your post is truthful, your wife wasn't forced into sex. She needs a new therapist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

How did you get over actually being used for economic support by a sexless fraud who purported herself to be wife material when she knew she was not? If someone has been "used" in this arrangement, it is you.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Someone is filling your wife's head with a bunch off bull that is making her view herself as a major victim. Thus is very very dangerous as it creates in her the idea that she is not responsible or has ownership if the choices she as an adult made. It creates a sense in her that as the victim, you are to blame and that she us due compensation.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

What's done is done. But like Ele and others have hit on, you guys both feel like the victim here.

There is a really good book that focuses on meeting each other's needs and a key aspect is that many couples don't actually know what their partner actually needs or wants and therefore they both try and both fail at meeting the other's needs and both feel taken for granted or used.

His Needs / Her Needs by dr Harley. It's $10 which is a pretty good bargain if it fixes or helps fix your marriage.

Amazon.com: his needs her needs


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses. I have so many mixed emotions right now. Part of me feels extremely guilty for not being a better husband. Part of me feels extremely sad that I have not seen my kids in a couple of days. Part of me wants to do anything possible to save our marriage. But, part of me is also filled with the same opinion of those of you who say "trauma" is a harsh word to use about our sexual past and she needs to get over it because she participated willingly. I didn't slip her a date rape drug, year after year. We often went out, had fun and (from her perspective) things got out of control. 

To whoever asked about a possible affair - not happening. I've done lots of due diligence. I just think that she's REALLY depressed and blaming me for her lot in life. 

I also get REALLY resentful some days, because her typical schedule involves going to the gym and volunteering for kid-oriented events. Meanwhile, I bust my ass (except lately because I find it hard to focus on work). She comes from a rich family and her parents (who are strong supporters of me and our marriage) have provided her with everything. In college, she switched to the easiest major on campus, squeaked by with a B.A. and then went to art school for 4 years and received a second B.A. That last degree cost her parents over $100k and she worked about a year before she became a stay at home mom. YES, I know being a stay at home Mom is REALLY hard work and she worked VERY hard at it and had little support from me the first few years of our marriage. But, over the last 6 years, I've REALLY tried to step it up. This is really upsetting.

I am sure I've done a crappy job of portraying her side of the story, but at the moment, I'm really upset and sad at the same time. I've got 3 kids at home that I adore, but I'm not going to live a sexless existence. I would REALLY prefer repairing my marriage and having her be the only person I have sex with again, but I am having more and more difficulty seeing how that will happen...


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

LOL. Everything, and I do mean everything you heard from her I heard from my ex wife. Waywards are notorious for rewriting history and blaming their faithful spouse for the most random bullsh!t they can think of, like sex. At least you didn't get blamed for rape because she wanted to identify as the victim and blame you for making her feel this way.

You're still in MC right? You want the best advice that will save your marriage and get her to stop blaming you for everything? Just agree with her! Agree with her and openly blame yourself for everything she said in therapy. It sounds like it won't work but believe me this will get her to stop blaming you with new things and get her to open up to you very shortly. Just understand that her accusations are just bullsh!t and right now she wants to be angry so she is going to be angry.

And about that, she's only going to be looking for excuses to hate you for as long as she can argue with you. If you can just agree with her or keep your mouth shut you'll have have of MC licked. From then on it's just working on conflict resolution skills and finding excuses to have fun doing things together like you used to do. Which you should be doing now, I mean when's the last time you left MC and decided to leave all your problems at home while you went out to dinner somewhere?

Reconciliation doesn't have to be hard btw, the hardest part is learning to give up and stop fighting senseless battles you'll never win anyways. So you say "You're right honey I did use and I'm sorry"...... "Take the night off I'm going to do the dishes and put the kids to bed". There cut, paste, make those your own words. For the most part that whole "used" feeling is really them not feeling appreciated so you'd be wise to make a list of all the little things she does for you that she doesn't have to. Keep the list in your wallet too, it will keep her from angry shopping with your money and credit cards. And then use those honest words of yours to melf her heart but don't say them to chase her ot change her feelings just say them when you think she needs to hear them most.


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

It sounds to me that back in the early days your wife was having a great time in the bedroom,but now some how something has changed and she needs somebody to blame for having sex out of wedlock and that is you,because now she cannot say she enjoyed the sex because she is afraid of how others will look at her ,so once again you are there for the blame.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

dubbizle said:


> It sounds to me that back in the early days your wife was having a great time in the bedroom,but now some how something has changed and she needs somebody to blame for having sex out of wedlock and that is you,because now she cannot say she enjoyed the sex because she is afraid of how others will look at her ,so once again you are there for the blame.


I couldn't have put it better myself.:smthumbup:


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## Saluki (Apr 6, 2013)

Nsweet said:


> ... You want the best advice that will save your marriage and get her to stop blaming you for everything? Just agree with her! Agree with her and openly blame yourself for everything she said in therapy. It sounds like it won't work but believe me this will get her to stop blaming you with new things and get her to open up to you very shortly. Just understand that her accusations are just bullsh!t and right now she wants to be angry so she is going to be angry.
> 
> And about that, she's only going to be looking for excuses to hate you for as long as she can argue with you. If you can just agree with her or keep your mouth shut you'll have have of MC licked. From then on it's just working on conflict resolution skills and finding excuses to have fun doing things together like you used to do. Which you should be doing now, I mean when's the last time you left MC and decided to leave all your problems at home while you went out to dinner somewhere?
> 
> Reconciliation doesn't have to be hard btw, the hardest part is learning to give up and stop fighting senseless battles you'll never win anyways. ...


My experience is similar. Begin by keeping in mind that *It's not your fault* that she did things she regrets and could have easily done differently. I'm sure you did things you regret. It's good to regret those. But based on what you describe, I don't see you as being responsible for her 'trauma.'

When my wife dropped the D-bomb (for me, seemingly out of the blue), I took the 'you're right about everything' approach because it seemed best suited to keeping my family with little children together. That's not to say she didn't have legitimate beefs--she did--just that I was not the demon figure she portrayed.

The trick for you and for me is to develop a strategy to fix the situation without continuing to feed into the warped psychology of how you got here. The therapy seems to be more problem than solution. I have found MMSL and NMMNG to be very helpful, though not a panacea.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Do3,
there's a couple of things you can do in parallel. 

*Snoop a little:*
So you're pretty sure she's not having an affair or anything like that. Hopefully you're right but you should snoop a little to make sure. Check phone records, see if she protects her phone like it's made of gold, basically red flags in general. If you're suspicious then get a voice activated recorder to be certain. The fact is that your marriage is a little vulnerable right now and she does have opportunity and EA are pretty easy for people to naively enter into and then start justifying once they've gotten attached.

*Knowledge is power:*
Saluki mentioned _Married Man Sex Life_ and _No More Mr Nice Guy_ and I mentioned _His Needs / Her Needs_. Relationships take work sometimes. You can't set back and just ponder things without doing some research. Of course asking questions at TAM is research but you need more than a few opinions. 

We don't know you so MMSL or NNMNG may be the perfect thing. On the other hand they may not apply to you at all. That's why you need to read the material and pick out the useful points.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I'll second the idea that knowledge is power.

MMSLP is a great book to read and see what from it can help in your situation.

His needs/her needs very much as well.

I will warn you on the affair front. Your wide unfortunately is in a spot where she is an easy target for the kind of guy who would go after women in her situation.

Such guys will play the game of being her buddy who is willing to listen to her problems, while sharing his own. Unfortunately these guys are very much out there at school stuff and at church. So watch out for him when he pops up and act quickly to snuff that out. 

He will look for ways to have isolated contact with her, such as private texting, 1:1 coffee, lunch, play dates.

He will often be a divorced guy, a guy who's wife works while he watches the kids, or a guy with a flexible work schedule. He might be the husband of a wife she hangs with.

Just be on the watch for any guys that pop up pursuing private one on one interaction with her.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

She seems overly traumatized, which is a red flag for hidden trauma she has not told you about. Possibly she was sexually abused as a child, sexually assaulted as a teen/college, or other trauma. Is her mother a borderline? Either parent alcoholic or other drug abuse?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> But, part of me is also filled with the same opinion of those of you who say "trauma" is a harsh word to use about our sexual past and she needs to get over it because she participated willingly. I didn't slip her a date rape drug, year after year. We often went out, had fun and (from her perspective) things got out of control.


I agree that what you describe does not sound abusive or a cause of trauma. However, I have learned that some people are traumatized by events which to the rest of us seem quite mild. Especially if it involves a child or young teen, because their perspective is without the benefit of maturity and experience.

So I would say you should not say to her what you are thinking, that she is overreacting to what happened. This is a kindness issue imo.

Which doesn't change the validity of your opinion about it.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Thor said:


> She seems overly traumatized, which is a red flag for hidden trauma she has not told you about. Possibly she was sexually abused as a child, sexually assaulted as a teen/college, or other trauma. Is her mother a borderline? Either parent alcoholic or other drug abuse?


Her "trauma" is because she gave it up too soon.

She wants a time machine where she can go back to their first time and this time she'd say no.

She's found religion too which means on that time machine she'd set it for staying a virgin till marriage.

In lieu of this she's essentially starting over as a born again virgin (it happens).

She wants the op to take sex off the table until she's "ready".

Good stuff.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> I'll second the idea that knowledge is power.
> 
> MMSLP is a great book to read and see what from it can help in your situation.
> 
> ...


I have full access to her only email accoubt. I regularly check who she has called and texted. I also check where she's at using ICloud (find my phone). We also have a family calendar of events and she sticks to that. I am well aware of ANY male interaction and she has none. If she does, you bet your sweet ass I'll squash that out in 0.001 seconds. I've read all the nice guy stuff and I've followed it. She is a 7 and I use to be a 7 when we were dating but dropped to a 4-5 due to work (a bad excuse). I'm now an 8 - dropped 45 pounds and in phenomenal shape for my age. I get lots of female attention now. That might be part of the problem...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Are you sure she isn't borderline? She has all the makings of BPD with a screwed up childhood from about the ages of 3-4, which is an important milestone with trust and intimacy, but I can't be certain based on your accounts. Not every child who goes through this will become borderline, but I just get the feeling she's got problems with abandonment avoids responsability by blaming others. If this is the case then WHOA!!!!!.... You are not going to get anywhere with the traditional MC advice, it's a completely different ball game where you have to do all the hard work to put up with the bad side and be ready to pull away at times while accepting her accusations just harsh words.
Borderline Personality Disorder - YouTube


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

I don't want to be mean, but your wife sounds crazy. 

I mean you are only telling one side of the story. This could be a different story from your wife's perspective. But if what you're saying is true, this just doesn't make sense. And I think that people who have experienced real trauma would find what your wife is saying "traumatized" her really offensive. She was a grown woman and if you didn't physically or mentally coerce her into doing things she didn't want to, she had a voice at any time and could have spoken up. 

Honestly, I cannot imagine why you would want to be with someone like this who is trying to make you feel bad for wanting to have sex with your wife. And I really think that whomever is giving you therapy sounds dangerous if they are letting her get away with calling this trauma and treating it like she's been abused...unless there is more to this story that is not here. 

I can't imagine being married to someone like this.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

I would have thought that, if she had bpd, OP would have noticed it in 6 years of marriage.

She probably was invalidated to the point of losing her voice, and now she is finding it. It's as melodic as a rusty iron grate from disuse. I agree with above who said it's a kindness issue. It's time to put your needs on the backburner and hold her while she learns to use that voice. Her verbal emotional expression is likely stunted at a young age. One of the first things we learn to say in emotional individuation is "NO!". Most people get to do that around age 2. Poor wife! So much trauma gets trickled down. Poor granny! Poor you! It's time to hold all of you in the heart and say a Metta Meditation. May you know love, kindness, peace, and happiness. Do this meditation first on yourself. Then for your kids. Then your wife. Then her mother. Then expand the Metta love outward to your city, country, and the entire globe of people united in suffering and compassion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> Bingo on the mother [being Borderline].


Dadof3, I agree with NSweet that you may want to consider whether your W is exhibiting moderate to strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Have you read about BPD traits so as to know the warning signs? I ask because you say her mother has it and because some of the behaviors you describe are classic traits of BPD. 

Specifically, you mention (a) anger which is carried from early childhood and easily triggered in seconds, (b) her great difficulty in handling intimacy and attachment, (c) her blame-shifting so as to always being "The Victim," and (d) black-white thinking wherein everyone is categorized as "all good" or "all bad" and she therefore cannot acknowledging a mistake (which would make her "all bad").

I caution that, if your W actually has moderate to strong traits of BPD, you also should be seeing two things you do not mention. One is _emotional instability_, which usually would be evident as a repeated cycle of push-you-away (due to her fear of engulfment) and pull-you-back (due to her fear of abandonment). 

The other thing missing from your story is _persistence_ of the traits. Because BPD traits arise in early childhood, they typically start showing strongly in the early teens and, thereafter, disappear only during the honeymoon period. The traits disappear then because a BPDer's infatuation over her partner convinces her that he is the perfect "soul mate," thereby holding her two fears at bay. 

Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates -- typically after 3 to 6 months of the most intense sex you will have in your lifetime -- the two fears return and the intense sex greatly diminishes. Indeed, it is common for sexual activity to go off a cliff early in a BPDer marriage. This happens because a BPDer has such a fragile sense of self that she cannot tolerate intimacy for very long.

This weak self image also will show itself in other ways, e.g., a reliance on the spouse to center her and ground her. (But when you do exactly that, she will resent it and feel you are trying to control her.) Because a BPDer does not know who she is, she needs someone in her life who give her that sense of direction. 

This is why it common for BPDers to be devoted to a hobby or occupation for a few years and then promptly replace it with an entirely different pursuit -- as your W did with the two college degrees that were never used for an occupation or other ongoing pursuit. It also is common for a BPDer to suddenly get religion and then, a few years later, to abandon it too.

I mention persistence as missing from your story because, if I understand you correctly, your real troubles did not start until five years into your 18.5 year relationships (i.e., 13 years ago with the birth of your first child). I therefore wonder whether you saw any strong BPD traits during the first five years? If not, it is extremely unlikely that you are seeing a moderate to strong pattern of BPD traits. Such traits do not disappear for five straight years.

If you would like to read my description of BPD traits, please take a look at my post in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings some bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Dadof3.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

:iagree:
Hey Uptown, correct me if I'm wrong but it's it also possible that children pick up some of the irrational fears and behaviors from BPD parents. So they could still meet BPD criteria but be less severe than their parents and even pass on a little to their own children. That's what I think went on with my family, but I've never been diagnosed BPD only rapid cycling bipolar.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Nsweet said:


> It's also possible that children pick up some of the irrational fears and behaviors from BPD parents. So they could still meet BPD criteria but be less severe than their parents and even pass on a little to their own children.


Yes, I agree. No scientist has yet proven definitively WHAT it is that causes BPD. As I understand it, the general view of the psychiatric community is that it is caused by a combination of genetics (which creates a predisposition to emotional problems) and abuse or abandonment in early childhood. Indeed, it appears that either of those conditions, if it is strong enough, is sufficient without the other condition being present. But nobody knows for certain.


> That's what I think went on with my family, but I've never been diagnosed BPD only rapid cycling bipolar.


Well, you definitely will occasionally exhibit ALL NINE of the BPD traits all the way through your life. Indeed, we ALL do. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all exhibit all of these traits to some degree. 

At low levels, these traits are generally needed to ensure our survival, particularly during childhood. The black-white thinking you do, for example, can save your life when you are in a crosswalk and suddenly look up to see a truck bearing down on you. 

Whenever your brain is under great stress and experiences intense feelings, it is hardwired to shift into black-white thinking. Hence, in the crosswalk moment, your brain is capable of only thinking "jump right" or "jump left." This is why, by the time you reached high school, you had already learned that your judgment goes out the window whenever you experience intense feelings.

BPD traits become a problem, instead of an asset, only when they become so strong and persistent that they distort one's perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- thus undermining the person's ability to sustain close LTRs.


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## Lionlady (Sep 12, 2012)

> She probably was invalidated to the point of losing her voice, and now she is finding it. It's as melodic as a rusty iron grate from disuse. I agree with above who said it's a kindness issue. It's time to put your needs on the backburner and hold her while she learns to use that voice.


Sorry. But I don't understand why he should be kind to this person who is essentially accusing him of traumatizing her. She seems to be one step short of calling him an abuser, or even a rapist. That doesn't seem very kind to me. If my husband suddenly told me that he'd felt I'd used him sexually for years and felt traumatized by the sex we'd had (that I'd thought we had both enjoyed), I would feel very angry. I'd wonder why he hadn't told me this when it was happening, wonder how he had lied to me for so long and would be feeling like our entire marriage was a lie. I'm sort of baffled why the OP is blaming himself so utterly unless there is a lot more to this story than he's sharing.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Lionlady said:


> Sorry. But I don't understand why he should be kind to this person who is essentially accusing him of traumatizing her. She seems to be one step short of calling him an abuser, or even a rapist. That doesn't seem very kind to me. If my husband suddenly told me that he'd felt I'd used him sexually for years and felt traumatized by the sex we'd had (that I'd thought we had both enjoyed), I would feel very angry. I'd wonder why he hadn't told me this when it was happening, wonder how he had lied to me for so long and would be feeling like our entire marriage was a lie. I'm sort of baffled why the OP is blaming himself so utterly unless there is a lot more to this story than he's sharing.


Agreed :iagree:


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Regarding whether my wife has BPD - I've thought about that a great deal. I don't think she has all of the characteristics, but she definitely has some. What condition that I have read about that I think is a more likely candidate is Premenstrual dysphoric disorder Premenstrual dysphoric disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

She is PMSing right now. I know most guys say women are nuts when they PMS. I have a Mom and a sister and lived with my ex, her mom and two female cousins for a while. So I know about moodiness. My wife is beyond moody when this happens. Our biggest fights almost always happen when she is PMSing. She even started taking meds for this before (prozac). She has never really articulated to me why she stopped. She didn't take it for very long - I think she said it didn't make a difference.

Something I used to do, which I will probably start again, is to monitor her menstrual cycle more closely. I used to have an ovulation app on my phone, which I used to tell me when she was about to go nuts. 

I AM DEFINITELY NOT GIVING THE ENTIRE PICTURE HERE. I KNOW I AM NOT EASY TO LIVE WITH. I HAVE INSECURITY/ATTACHMENT ISSUES AND CAN BE MOODY AND IRRITABLE. I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH ADD AND HAVE BEEN TAKING MEDS FOR THAT FOR ABOUT 1.5 YEARS. IT DEFINITELY HELPS ME FROM BLURTING OUT INSENSITIVE THINGS AND OVER-REACTING. BUT THE LACK OF SEX OVER THE LAST 2 MONTHS HAS DROVE ME BATTY. 

I agree with the recommendation to treat my wife with softness. I do - almost all of the time. I am very affectionate, complimentary, validating, etc. Things are much better when I just keep my mouth shut when she says something that irritates me. It's also a lot better if I just let her vent, without chiming in with defenses. When I criticize her in ANY way - she goes full psycho - especially when she is PMSing.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Lionlady said:


> Sorry. But I don't understand why he should be kind to this person who is essentially accusing him of traumatizing her. She seems to be one step short of calling him an abuser, or even a rapist. That doesn't seem very kind to me. If my husband suddenly told me that he'd felt I'd used him sexually for years and felt traumatized by the sex we'd had (that I'd thought we had both enjoyed), I would feel very angry. I'd wonder why he hadn't told me this when it was happening, wonder how he had lied to me for so long and would be feeling like our entire marriage was a lie. I'm sort of baffled why the OP is blaming himself so utterly unless there is a lot more to this story than he's sharing.


Clarification - my wife has complained about me "just using her for sex" before - even shortly before we got married. I always told her that I loved her, that it was not true, etc. What's new is labelling it "trauma" (which I blame on our previous therapist we found through our insurance who just so happened to specialize in PTSD - he saw "trauma" in everything. We left him because I googled the crap out of him and found articles where he was quoted as applying "magic" to his treatment - no thanks!) Her telling me about the condom incident is also new, as is the total re-writing of our sexual past being nothing but alcohol-based (we actually had many great times - including when she was pregnant, where no alcohol was involved).


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Lionlady said:


> Sorry. But I don't understand why he should be kind to this person who is essentially accusing him of traumatizing her. She seems to be one step short of calling him an abuser, or even a rapist. That doesn't seem very kind to me. If my husband suddenly told me that he'd felt I'd used him sexually for years and felt traumatized by the sex we'd had (that I'd thought we had both enjoyed), I would feel very angry. I'd wonder why he hadn't told me this when it was happening, wonder how he had lied to me for so long and would be feeling like our entire marriage was a lie. I'm sort of baffled why the OP is blaming himself so utterly unless there is a lot more to this story than he's sharing.


"be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." -the Dalai Lama

The reason to be kind is because kindness is always the answer. Whether or not this woman has the label bpd, she is suffering. OP is suffering. Opening the heart in Metta is not enabling bad behavior, it is refilling of the heart of the well wisher. I did suggest, as is customary, for OP to first meditate on love, kindness, peace and joy emerging in his own life. That is the oxygen mask that you put on before helping a fellow airline passenger. You open your own heart to compassion and love. 

This is assuming that OP wants to stay in the marriage, which is an easy one judging by the thread title.

As a recovering person with bpd, i can tell you that my husband's firm hugs and soothing when i have been at my most mentally ill have created an atmosphere safe for me to transform into health. I taught him to give me a restraining bear hug and to whisper it'll be ok over and over until the emotional convulsions passed. OP you can ask your wife what routine would give her a ground floor for when she is falling into the abyss.

Kindness is not just goody goody, it is EFFECTIVE.

Also, please familiarize yourself with Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Www.dbtselfhelp.com is a perfect start. There is also a wonderful interactive group that does dbt on yahoo groups. The moderators are amazing. Dbt was developed by a survivor of CSA for bpd sufferers.

Love, kindness, peace and joy to you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

OP... I'm going to help you because you need it. This will get you started.

Step 1... Look in the mirror (YOU) correct ALL your issues she has of you. (you control you)
Step 2... Apologize in full to your wife in writing and read it to her aloud...make her cry (must)
Step 3... Absolutely ditch the MC (tell your wife simply there are no 3rd parties in our marriage)
Step 4... Read everything you can find on women's needs. (Calle zorro etc)
Step 5.. Act normal, don't whine give your wife space. Try for sex but DON'T get angry if she denies you.
STEP 6... Ongoing homework...stand up to your wife EVERY SINGLE TIME when she displeases you over anything besides sex. Use the lack of sex to CORRECT her. Gain her respect.

Take charge over your unacceptable situation. Be the man.

That will get you started rest of THE PLAN (My plan) will be posted in a few months (after total COMPLETE 100% success in my marriage)

I want you to realize this is NOT A QUICK FIX what it is is a PERMANENT fix for sex on your fair terms with a wife who adores you after.

OLD MARRIAGE----> Correction period----> NEW MARRIAGE

Keep in mind... you have the inside track to her heart... she is waiting for you to guide her.

Will you trade *2 or 3 years* of mind re-engineering for a lifetime of good regular sex with YOUR wife who now treats you with respect and goes out of her way to be kind?

Think a Marathon NOT A SPRINT! Think melting ICEBERG. All these take time.
The plan involves self sacrifice... it will be VERY hard and change you both only follow if you really want to have a great sexual marriage for life.

You have 6 months until the next major step/shift..my complete plan will be up by then.

Have a plan (It keeps you sane and on task in an *unacceptable situation*)...Good Luck

Keep in mind.. most of my plan is allowing time to work we do things in stages. So doing nothing is a-ok. Keep your eye on the prize. Remember any assurances your wife makes during the plan (Time/place/what was promised) you will use these later.

I gave you the early steps... up to you now.

Your wife is not insane... and you are in the right (Take the high road) but you have work to do on yourself first....TAKE A DEEP LOOK IN THE MIRROR (Would you like sex with you as is?)

Your welcome. The clock starts one YOU apologize.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> At this point, I am pretty certain my wife is mentally ill and perhaps I am as well.


Yeah...... She's Borderline! 

You can deny it for her and claim that it's all your fault, that she's just being emotional right now, but you have no idea...... She's displaying a lot of the signs, some of the same signs I saw and the same signs other TAM members who have come before you have reported. And the one thing about borderline wives is they have this incredible ability to make you believe you're losing your mind with their crazy-making behavior, with the gaslighting, blameshifting, and back and forth love/hate treatment of you. What was the old adage? If you think you're going crazy you're not, because anyone who can ponder their own sanity still has it together.


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## daffodilly (Oct 3, 2011)

Can the MC get her to see a more qualified professional...like a psychiatrist? From what you write she really does not sound well at all, and not sure a marriage counselor would suffice. She really needs to work on herself and getting mentally well before she can even address the marriage. It's terrible for you, but I'd just strongly focus on the kids and making sure they're well taken care of and getting her medical help. Get her to do it for her children if she won't go for herself.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> At this point, I am pretty certain my wife is mentally ill and perhaps I am as well. I am certain there is no other guy and I think she has tried for years to make our marriage work.
> 
> We had dinner last night with her parents, which has been planned since last week. Given the situation, she told them that we were not talking and she felt uncomfortable with me being there. Her Dad called me and her and insisted that I come. We went. It was horrible. Her parents kept speaking to her in Korean, with my wife responding in English (which is normal). She kept getting more angry. At one time, my wife said "Yeah Mom, it's all my fault, I guess I'll just have to commit suicide." Her Mom paused for a few minutes, but kept going at her sporadically at dinner. My wife was VERY upset at her and barely looked at me. We drove her parents home. Her Dad took me aside and talked to me about divorce not being good for the kids, that my wife gets angry and her Mom is just the same way and he has been married for 40 years. I can tell he was really concerned about us and our kids. I also felt really sad for him too. I told him I didn't want a divorce and it was my wife that was very upset at me. My wife told us we needed to go. On the drive home my wife cried. I put my hand on her shoulder twice when we were driving. The second time, she pulled her shoulder away from me.
> 
> ...



Just know that all pain is common coin. Yours matters equally to hers. Pain and suffering are part of life, but we can become resilient. No one can take away wife's pain but her. The Metta meditation opens the heart so that you can accept that with love comes challenge, with kindness comes boundary drawing, with peace comes choosing your battles, and with joy comes Witnessing to suffering. It puts you in a position of open readiness, like in tennis when you are receiving a serve. 

Hopefully, it will fill you with enough SELF-compassion to know that this is not your fault and blame is not the way out. It will strengthen you so that your wife can regurgitate all kinds of bs that she has swallowed and which no longer serves her. I call this "owl pellet time" around here. I accept the totality of what people dish out, and cannot discern where my feelings are. Only later, with pain and shame, do i cough up the indigestible bits. My poor husband! He is so strong to hold me kindly and witness my inner hell, provide a thread for me to get out of the maze.

You have demonstrated immense insight at seeing how you play into wife's dynamic. You have what it takes to step into a higher perspective. Really listen to her. Don't comment or conclude, but help her keep talking, refining and validating her inner feelings--they have an inner logic that requires being honored before they stop sabre rattling. Approach this with an attitude of curiousity. "I am curious as to why you describe that incident in those terms, tell me more.". It is like draining an abcess.

It's true, bpd will mess up the life of the co if you are not taking good care of yourself. Look into dbt, it is really easy, structured, and effective. It has frameworks in place that can ground you as well as her. She will have written self-report homework. People with bpd are so changeable, structure can really help. 

The lessons of mindful awareness and distress tolerance found in dbt are universal.

Take good care of yourself, Dadof! Putting your pressing needs on the backburner must only be temporary. You still have the larger needs of having a happy home and your owwn mental health. May love light your way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dad,

I can't say whether your wife is mentally ill or not. Only a qualified professional can evaluate her on that score.

However, what I can say is that she is exhibiting some amount of normal female behavior, which you are handling all wrong.

Your wife is emotional. Most women are. Your wife isn't logical. Most women aren't. You are handling your wife's emotional outbursts by trying to give her your perspective and arguing that she's got her facts wrong. Even if your wife were thinking like most women normally do, that approach wouldn't work.

You don't argue with women using logic and facts. That's not their currency. Their currency is emotion. They don't care what's right and what's wrong. The mainly care about how they feel. And you really can't argue about that. You can only acknowledge it.

And stop apologizing. Apologizing is lending credence to your wife's irrational beliefs. Don't do that. Acknowledge her irrational beliefs. Then, go do something else.

Imagine that your wife wasn't arguing about past trauma. Imagine she suddenly became very interested in feng shui and declared that she just can't have sex in your bedroom because it's the wrong color. Now, it would be foolish of you to try to argue that the color of your bedroom has little to nothing to do with the quality of your sex life. That's what she believes. But, it would be equally foolish to spend a weekend painting your room a different color. She would probably have sex once or twice before discovering a new excuse not to have sex with you.

What you should do is acknowledge her beliefs without comment. Something like, "Wrong color, eh? Alright." Then, you go live an interesting life. Lose weight. Hit the gym. Take your kids to the park. Get a new group of friends of both sexes to hang out with. If you become more attractive and hang out with sexually available women, your wife will be much more likely to abandon the excuses she uses to deny your sex.

If you look at your wife's behavior in this way, I doubt she's really that upset because you corrupted her non-virginal flesh. She's just rewriting history to match her current feelings. She's not into you, so she invents a story with some sort of logical cause for her feelings. You should address the feelings, not the invented cause of the feelings.

So, get your wife help if she really needs it. And that doesn't mean meekly handing her an old bottle of Prozac. If she's threatening suicide, drive her to a psychiatric facility and have her involuntarily committed for a couple of nights. While this is happening, work on yourself.

Good luck.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Dadof3, I agree with NSweet that you may want to consider whether your W is exhibiting moderate to strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Have you read about BPD traits so as to know the warning signs? I ask because you say her mother has it and because some of the behaviors you describe are classic traits of BPD.


Uptown, I am not in any way an expert on BPD, and am not qualified to diagnose it. I do want to relate my experience with my wife.

I thought for a number of years she was "BPD-lite", or BPDish. But I was never convinced she was in fact BPD or NPD. Yet there were some definite similarities. What I discovered many years later was she had been molested as a young child. Bingo! The behaviors and psychological issues all fit.

There is definite overlap in symptoms where there is some form of abuse, abandonment, trauma, violence, war, substance abuse, and genetic history. OP's wife could be BPD, NPD, bipolar, have PTSD, have some kind of genetically caused mental distortions, etc. 

The caution I offer is that one should not go too far down the road of trying to find the root cause or find a definitive diagnosis. Having some data is a good thing. Having some understanding of the issue is a good thing. The problem is when one engages in a quest to get the exact answer to what the cause is. In the end it really does not matter. What matters is her behavior within the marriage. Is it acceptable as is? Are things improving at an acceptable pace?

The only advantage to having a definitive diagnosis is if one is willing to end the marriage due to it.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Here is another source for info on how to cope with bpd:
A.J. Mahari - YouTube
It may not be the most visually appealing set of videos, but great info and insight.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Dad,
> 
> I can't say whether your wife is mentally ill or not. Only a qualified professional can evaluate her on that score.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I can appreciate all of what you are saying. I have been too logical with her. What makes matters worse is that I am a lawyer and used to arguing points. I learned years ago that was a bad idea and try to stop that. My new approach is a little better - hear her and tell her I see where she is coming from, but here is my perspective... Clearly that is not working! I like your analogy to her wanting to paint the bedroom. Do you EVER paint the bedroom if she says it three times or more? 

Any suggestion about "warning" her about discussing suicide again? I didnt just offrr her Prozac, but called our counselor who evaluated the situation and told me she was stable. I will ask our MC.

Re her seeking other help other than MC. She should, but some IC who are not MC may suggest she leave the marriage without getting the big picture. I've read lots of posts here about that. I am not trying to be a jerk and care more about our maeriage than her well-being, but I'm also concerned about ICs that look for quick fixes and have their own baggage about marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

In that case, once again, look for a DBT practitioner. They will only guide your wife to become mindfully aware, do distress tolerance, and learn interpersonal skills.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

I know BPD is a broad range of severity but don't let it become a crutch for accepting intolerable treatment.

I may be empathetic if my wife had bipolar and was mean to me every low cycle but that wouldn't change the boundary being crossed. It wouldn't change how I would allow her to treat me. At least not very much. I would expect her to make efforts to be control how she treats others when she's high or low. Believing in their ability to control their own actions is proving to be effective in studies I've seen. Well the one study in Psychology Today I read.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I learned years ago that was a bad idea and try to stop that. My new approach is a little better - hear her and tell her I see where she is coming from, but here is my perspective... Clearly that is not working!


Right. You're better, but still falling short. Simply acknowledge her point of view without either giving it credence, or dismissing it. It is what it is and you are going to behave the way you will regardless of it.



> I like your analogy to her wanting to paint the bedroom. Do you EVER paint the bedroom if she says it three times or more?


It depends why you're doing it. If your wife doesn't like the color and you want to do something nice for her, then paint the room. If you're trying to have more sex by addressing her excuse for avoiding sex, then you're wasting your time. She'll just find a new excuse and leave you more frustrated than you were before.

You just have to evaluate your wife's excuses to see what is reasonable. If she complains about a lack of privacy, and your kids sleep in your bed with you, then she has a legitimate complaint that you should address. If she complains that you were too eager to put on a condom 15 years ago, and that still troubles her, then you ignore her.



> Any suggestion about "warning" her about discussing suicide again? I didnt just offrr her Prozac, but called our counselor who evaluated the situation and told me she was stable. I will ask our MC.


I would ask the MC. Tell her that you want an in-patient facility to take your wife to if she threatens suicide again. You're just being concerned about her. You can even bring it up in a session with your wife. You're so concerned about her that you just want to protect her from any harm. That should do the trick.



> Re her seeking other help other than MC. She should, but some IC who are not MC may suggest she leave the marriage without getting the big picture. I've read lots of posts here about that. I am not trying to be a jerk and care more about our maeriage than her well-being, but I'm also concerned about ICs that look for quick fixes and have their own baggage about marriage.


I wouldn't just go to another MC to deal with relationship issues. I would look for a BPD specialist to deal with that, specifically. Look for a psychiatrist, rather than a psychologist. Most psychiatrists will focus on diagnosis and drug treatment over counseling.

Good luck.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Things just took what looks like an UGLY turn. As I mentioned, I monitor our phone records to see who she is calling.

About 2 hours ago, she called a number I did not recognize. I googled it and it belongs to A DIVORCE LAWYER!! WTF??? The call appears to have lasted 2 minutes or less.

I have not confronted her with this. I texted our MC and she said to NOT react. She and the MC are meeting tomorrow a.m.

OK - WHAT DO I DO NOW FELLOW TAMMERS??!!!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Ok, I know it seems like all is lost and you should try to fight her on this, but just hear me out.

Go through with the divorce she wants and absolutely DO NOT FIGHT HER DECISION. Don't chase, don't argue, don't criticize, just agree with her and put a good spin on her words. "You say you're right honey it's not working and MC was a mistake, I'm not going to do anything to fight this, and [something like] I'll be ok." And while you're doing that continue to pull away from her and only show her kindness and a positive uplifted attitude. 

You do this and she's going to flip the f*ck out at first trying to get you to fight with her so she can have a concrete reason to hate you, but then she's going to sink into depression and end up hating herself for wanting to leave you. And I've seen this first hand with my ex wife and with others. It's actually funny to sit there in court and see all the wayward wives who were giving each other high fives hours ago now crying when they come out of mediation. One by one I counted seven out of 8 wives coming out with tears streaming. 

You just keep up the not chasing and what I call being "wonderful and desireless" and she's going to come back to you naturally, because for one not creating friction with her, and two you've mastered the art of not giving her affection when she's treading you badly. It's why women like jerks.... You don't kiss your wife's ass when she's mistreating you, and the only way she can get affection and appraisal from you is when she's being nice again. 

Also I really want you to read stop walking on eggshells. If you need a copy I can send you one through email tonight.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> How did you get over actually being used for economic support by a sexless fraud who purported herself to be wife material when she knew she was not? If someone has been "used" in this arrangement, it is you.



Umm, how exactly was he being "used" for support when by his own admission he "expected" her to stay home and take care of the kids, "expected" her to have 24/7 duty and still provide him with sex when it suited him? That reeks of a certain control dynamic. In any case I think Elegirl makes great points in that she's just unhappy with the marriage in general and at this point doesn't like him. When that happens everything you do is wrong, he probably couldn't make toast right in her eyes right now. And OP, I still have hemorrhoids 10 years after the birth of my youngest and they can be quite painful. The fact that you read somewhere ( which must make it true) that they go away and decided that had more validity then what your wife says lends support to the theory that you don't listen all that well and pretty much want what you want. Try listening to her for once without saying a thing, then when she's done just tell her you're genuinely sorry she feels that way, then ask how you can help. Continue with MC and maybe this anger of hers will dissipate. I think you'll find that when it does what happened when you were dating won't matter so much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> Ok, I know it seems like all is lost and you should try to fight her on this, but just hear me out.
> 
> Go through with the divorce she wants and absolutely DO NOT FIGHT HER DECISION. Don't chase, don't argue, don't criticize, just agree with her and put a good spin on her words. "You say you're right honey it's not working and MC was a mistake, I'm not going to do anything to fight this, and [something like] I'll be ok." And while you're doing that continue to pull away from her and only show her kindness and a positive uplifted attitude.
> 
> ...


NSweet. I don't care about making my wife cry while coming out of the mediation room. I don't want to GET to the mediation room. As far as I can tell, following our fight on Thursday, she's REALLY pissed and more so after the events last night. She made a VERY quick phone call and most likely left a message on some lawyer's voicemail. 

I'm freaking out!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

You know making her cry was not the intent of my post to you! If she wants to be pissed you let her be pissed, there's nothing you can do right now but let the dust settle and leave her the hell along for a while. Go take break from your marriage problems by roaming a book store and look for "Divorce Busters" by Michelle Weiner Davis or "Love Busters" by Willard F Harley Jr. And just leave her be for a while and pull away. You and I both know she's depressed and looking for a quick fix, so just let her deal with her depression without having you around to blame.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> Regarding whether my wife has BPD - I've thought about that a great deal. I don't think she has all of the characteristics, but she definitely has some.


Like you, I am not convinced your W has BPD. I nonetheless would not be too quick to rule it out. The diagnostic manual requires that, for a person to "have BPD," they must have five or more of the nine traits at a strong and persistent level. Hence, your W's not having "all of the characteristics" certainly does not rule BPD out.


> Something I used to do, which I will probably start again, is to monitor her menstrual cycle more closely.


Great idea! That information could prove to be invaluable. As I said earlier, every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Because we all have these traits, they can flare up when we are under great stress -- as can be caused by hormone changes (e.g., during PMS, pregnancy, or puberty), brain injury, brain tumor, or drug abuse. Because BPD traits can flare up for a couple of years in this way, the diagnostic manual requires that the traits not only be _strong _but also _persistent_ for a person to be diagnosed as "having BPD."


> When I criticize her in ANY way - she goes full psycho - especially when she is PMSing.


That extreme sensitivity to criticism is one of the classic traits of BPD. This does not imply, however, that your W "has BPD." There is a world of difference  between a temporary flareup of such traits and a lifetime of them. Whereas the flareup can often be easily treated (e.g., with medication addressing a hormone deficiency), lifetime BPD is very difficult to treat because medications won't make a dent in it and BPDers rarely stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> At this point, I am pretty certain my wife is mentally ill and perhaps I am as well.


Perhaps you do have serious issues -- like attachment -- that you need to work on. Yet, if you have been living with a BPDer for over 18 years, "crazy" is exactly how you SHOULD be feeling. It is extremely disorienting and confusing to live with a person having strong BPD traits, which distort her perceptions of your intentions and motivations. 

Indeed, of the several dozen disorders listed in the diagnostic manual, BPD is the one that is most notorious for making abused spouses feel like they may be losing their minds. Indeed, therapists see far more abused spouses coming in -- to find out if they may be going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.


> I emailed our MC and told her I was really worried about my wife and about the incidents that night.


I agree with Nsweet that, if your W is mentally ill as you believe, _"You are not going to get anywhere with the traditional MC advice."_ MC can be great when a couple lacks communication skills. Yet, the issues you are describing go FAR beyond a simple lack of communication skills. My experience (with my BPDer exW) is that, when there are mental issues that need to be addressed, MC is a total waste of time and money until the more serious issues have been addressed in IC.

I therefore suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and the girls are dealing with. If your W does have a PD like BPD, you likely will not hear about it from HER therapist because therapists generally are loath to tell the client, much less her husband, the name of this disorder. One reason is the lack of any insurance coverage in the USA for BPD treatments. I discuss several other reasons at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.

Of course, the psychologist will be unable to render a formal diagnosis of your W's issues without seeing her. The irony, however, is that if he sees her then she becomes his client and he is ethically bound to protect HER best interests, not yours.

Hence, relying on your wife's therapist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. It therefore is important to obtain a second opinion from _your own _psychologist. Although he will not give you a formal diagnosis, he will be able to say (based on your 18 years of experience with your W) "It sounds to me like you and the kids probably are dealing with ...."

A _psychiatrist_ would serve just as well but, because you are then paying for both an MD and PhD degree, the hourly rate usually is doubled, if not tripled. Granted, if your W ever stays in therapy, you likely would need both a psychologist (for treatment) and a psychiatrist (for medications). For the purpose of obtaining a candid second opinion, however, a _psychologist_ likely will suffice.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> OK - WHAT DO I DO NOW FELLOW TAMMERS??!!!


You continue with your strategy of changing your behavior. And you give up your strategy of forcing your wife to love you and behave nicely. See, women are like rope. Pulling a rope is easy. Pushing a rope is impossible.

You've spent years arguing with your wife, telling her how you want her to behave, pressuring her to behave, and giving her what she demands. That's all pushing. That's why it hasn't worked.

You have to start pulling. Work on YOU. Improve yourself. Make yourself into an attractive option. She would probably prefer to choose to be with you than to choose to be alone, or to start over dating as a single mother.

It's not a news flash that your wife doesn't like you very much. You shouldn't be shocked that she is considering divorce. Unfortunately, you don't have as much leverage as you normally would because I assume that her rich family will support her. Normally, a SAHM who divorces will be required to get a job. That provides a great deal of incentive to stay in the marriage. You may not have that.

I know it's easier said than done, but you have to accept the fact that she can decide to divorce you at any time. There's nothing you can do to force her to change her mind. You can only try to be an attractive enough option that she chooses to remain married to you.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> Umm, how exactly was he being "used" for support when by his own admission he "expected" her to stay home and take care of the kids, "expected" her to have 24/7 duty and still provide him with sex when it suited him? That reeks of a certain control dynamic.


:lol: Only a woman can rationalize that a man who provides for a woman and expects a sexual marriage is the bad guy. Anything less than the pure, mistress/butler relationship is unacceptable, eh?



> And OP, I still have hemorrhoids 10 years after the birth of my youngest and they can be quite painful. The fact that you read somewhere ( which must make it true) that they go away and decided that had more validity then what your wife says lends support to the theory that you don't listen all that well and pretty much want what you want.


I think Dad has established pretty well that his wife is full of crap when it comes to cooking up excuses not to have sex. I don't doubt that she isn't attracted to him and doesn't want to have sex. But I do doubt whether the problem is hemorrhoids, or how quickly he put a condom on 15 years ago.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You continue with your strategy of changing your behavior. And you give up your strategy of forcing your wife to love you and behave nicely. See, women are like rope. Pulling a rope is easy. Pushing a rope is impossible.
> 
> You've spent years arguing with your wife, telling her how you want her to behave, pressuring her to behave, and giving her what she demands. That's all pushing. That's why it hasn't worked.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Back to working on myself. I went to a men's church group last night for men struggling with marriage issues. It was really put some perspective on things. I've spent way too much time pushing her away rather than leading her and the family in the right direction. 

Her Dad also called me. He had a long call with her late this afternoon and told her how hard he struggled with his marriage when he was almost exactly my age and that marriage is a lot of hard work, but is worth it in the long run. 

When I got home, I was in a very good mood. She fed off of that and a lot of the tension of the past few days was gone. Right now, we are just taking things one day at a time...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I can tell why she called the divorce lawyer. I doubt you are a joy to live with. 

OP simplify it.

I know you ignored my advice earlier because you are so focused on your opinion of your wife and her "BPD" but since your marriage is on the ropes listen to us.

Working on you is great... that is my step 1 LOOK IN THE MIRROR

Next is heartfelt apology to your wife in writing sit her down and read it to her and make her cry. Let her know what YOU plan to do different to make OUR marriage better.

Third is DITCH the MC.
That's the start....from that point forward YOU BOTH CAN HEAL.

Listen to us we know we've been there OR continue what you have been doing which is pushing her away and making both your lives miserable.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> :lol: Only a woman can rationalize that a man who provides for a woman and expects a sexual marriage is the bad guy. Anything less than the pure, mistress/butler relationship is unacceptable, eh?
> 
> 
> I think Dad has established pretty well that his wife is full of crap when it comes to cooking up excuses not to have sex. I don't doubt that she isn't attracted to him and doesn't want to have sex. But I do doubt whether the problem is hemorrhoids, or how quickly he put a condom on 15 years ago.



Well only a man could rationalize that he can demand the wife stay at home with the kids where she belongs and be damn grateful for it. You can't make the argument that she used him when that was the dynamic he demanded. Now if that's what she wanted it's a different story. I never said he was a bad guy, I said there was a control dynamic where he wants what he wants regardless of what she thinks. He had every right to expect a sexual marriage, but someone who expects it when they want it without regard to how their spouse is feeling is self centered. His wife is exhausted from taking care of babies 24/7 where by his own admission he didn't lift a finger but he's still entitled to sex on his terms. I bet he was nice and rested too. I work a pretty demanding job and I stayed home with kids early on and I'm quite well rested now compared to when I was dealing with babies. Did he expect sex when she had the flu? These are basic considerations we give to our spouses in general but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I think you're correct in that at this point she just doesn't want sex with him period. I only brought up the hemorrhoids because it's an example of how he wants what he wants and because he read something his wife must be lying and dammit he wants what he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well only a man could rationalize that he can demand the wife stay at home with the kids where she belongs and be damn grateful for it. You can't make the argument that she used him when that was the dynamic he demanded. Now if that's what she wanted it's a different story. I never said he was a bad guy, I said there was a control dynamic where he wants what he wants regardless of what she thinks. He had every right to expect a sexual marriage, but someone who expects it when they want it without regard to how their spouse is feeling is self centered. His wife is exhausted from taking care of babies 24/7 where by his own admission he didn't lift a finger but he's still entitled to sex on his terms. I bet he was nice and rested too. I work a pretty demanding job and I stayed home with kids early on and I'm quite well rested now compared to when I was dealing with babies. Did he expect sex when she had the flu? These are basic considerations we give to our spouses in general but that doesn't seem to be the case here. I think you're correct in that at this point she just doesn't want sex with him period. I only brought up the hemorrhoids because it's an example of how he wants what he wants and because he read something his wife must be lying and dammit he wants what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never "demanded" sex and I did lift lots of fingers, just not enough. I was not very good with infants, but helped more with our last child when she was first born and with all the kids as they got older. I also did and do laundry, dishes, etc. I think the most damaging thing I did was my passive aggressive behavior - I would pout or stop sex if she was tired. That built resentment because I was not appreciative of her effort and should not have expected more. I have not asked for sex when she has the flu and I am very conscious and enjoy giving physical affection during times of no sex (e.g. when she's on her period). There are definitely a lot of control issues here. She married me in part because I remind her of her Dad and like to take charge. As she got older and tried to find a voice (on lots of things) conflict ensued). A lot of this came up again in the last 4-5 months when she decided she was not ready to go back to work. She got her teaching credential (at a significant expense) and then doubted her ability to teach 32 kids and control a classroom). The stress of getting her credential and student teaching caused her to realize how much she was missing re kids' activities. She had a bit of a breakdown and we agreed she should table the job for a while. The problems began when she started (in my opinion) over scheduling the kids and vokunteering for too many things. I tried to micro-manage her and lots of fights about me controlling her occurred. I ultimately backed off and told her to do what she wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I never "demanded" sex and I did lift lots of fingers, just not enough. I was not very good with infants, but helped more with our last child when she was first born and with all the kids as they got older. I also did and do laundry, dishes, etc. I think the most damaging thing I did was my passive aggressive behavior - I would pout or stop sex if she was tired. That built resentment because I was not appreciative of her effort and should not have expected more. I have not asked for sex when she has the flu and I am very conscious and enjoy giving physical affection during times of no sex (e.g. when she's on her period). There are definitely a lot of control issues here. She married me in part because I remind her of her Dad and like to take charge. As she got older and tried to find a voice (on lots of things) conflict ensued). A lot of this came up again in the last 4-5 months when she decided she was not ready to go back to work. She got her teaching credential (at a significant expense) and then doubted her ability to teach 32 kids and control a classroom). The stress of getting her credential and student teaching caused her to realize how much she was missing re kids' activities. She had a bit of a breakdown and we agreed she should table the job for a while. The problems began when she started (in my opinion) over scheduling the kids and vokunteering for too many things. I tried to micro-manage her and lots of fights about me controlling her occurred. I ultimately backed off and told her to do what she wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Fair enough, these were my impressions from your original post but if I'm wrong that's a good thing. If she comes from a controlling father it's possible that she sought those qualities in a husband because that's what she knows but then resented you for it. The best thing to do now is to stop behaving like her father and start behaving like her partner. Stop micromanaging, stop pushing what you want all the time, and make some effort to acknowledge what she thinks. That's all you can do really, ask her often what she needs from you and continue with counseling. I have a tough time believing that this is really about you pushing for sex while dating; this is someone that feels controlled and is acting out. Remember, us women don't want sex with our father any more then you want sex with your mother 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Umm, how exactly was he being "used" for support when by his own admission he "expected" her to stay home and take care of the kids, "expected" her to have 24/7 duty and still provide him with sex when it suited him? That reeks of a certain control dynamic.



I think the point is that if she can accuse him of "using" her for sex, then it's just as legitimate for him to accuse her of using him for financial support. 

BTW, sex isn't "provided" from the wife to the husband like some sacrifice. It's a connection that *BOTH* the husband and wife are supposed to enjoy (otherwise, they shouldn't marry!).

What "reeks of a certain control dynamic" is the wife creating excuses and blaming others for why she can't enjoy sex, instead of being honest and openly acknowledging that the problem is in her, not him.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> The best thing to do now is to stop behaving like her father and start behaving like her partner. Stop micromanaging, stop pushing what you want all the time, and make some effort to acknowledge what she thinks. That's all you can do really, ask her often what she needs from you and continue with counseling. I have a tough time believing that this is really about you pushing for sex while dating; this is someone that feels controlled and is acting out. Remember, us women don't want sex with our father any more then you want sex with your mother
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are absolutely right. This is about me controlling her and treating her like I think I am smarter than her. When she wants my advice, which she does want fairly often, I should give it, but also end every discussion with asking her what she thinks. When she does not ask for my advice, I will not offer any, but reaffirm what she's saying, unless I seriously believe someone's life is in danger (which won't happen). Her life revolves around the kids and that is her I also need to stop trying to fix her and expect/demand that she make me feel good about myself.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Theseus said:


> BTW, sex isn't "provided" from the wife to the husband like some sacrifice. It's a connection that *BOTH* the husband and wife are supposed to enjoy (otherwise, they shouldn't marry!).
> 
> .


Yes, I agree with this; I don't think of sex as something I provide my husband. I love sex with him because I feel loved and cherished (and he's great in bed), but this is going to take us back to the old rule of men need sex to feel love and women need love to have sex (well most). Women will claim they feel used for sex when for whatever reason they don't feel loved and cherished. Also, sex is a bond between partners, and when the relationship degenerates into a parent/child dynamic sex will suffer. I think that's what has happened here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Read this: Obsessing Over an Abusive Ex: Thoughts on Being Stuck | Shrink4Men


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I can tell why she called the divorce lawyer. I doubt you are a joy to live with.
> 
> OP simplify it.
> 
> I know you ignored my advice earlier because you are so focused on your opinion of your wife and her "BPD" but since your marriage is on the ropes listen to us.



Trying2figureitout, you keep repeating the same advice over and over in this thread and you seem to take it personally that he's not leaping to use it. 

You keep insisting that he apologize to his wife for everything, yet some other people in this thread (like PHTlump) advise that he doesn't apologize. So maybe you should take a deep breath and understand that he's got a hundred things going on at once, and he's also getting a hundred opinions at once, so he needs to sort them out. Besides, because something may have worked for you, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the OP.

People who post here asking for help on TAM aren't obligated to follow the advice that others give them.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Theseus said:


> Trying2figureitout, you keep repeating the same advice over and over in this thread and you seem to take it personally that he's not leaping to use it.
> 
> You keep insisting that he apologize to his wife for everything, yet some other people in this thread (like PHTlump) advise that he doesn't apologize. So maybe you should take a deep breath and understand that he's got a hundred things going on at once, and he's also getting a hundred opinions at once, so he needs to sort them out. Besides, because something may have worked for you, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the OP.
> 
> People who post here asking for help on TAM aren't obligated to follow the advice that others give them.


For all those people who guessed my conflict with my wife had little to do about sex, you guessed correctly. It was all about control. The story has a happy ending...

My wife had a 2 hour individual session with our marriage counselor today (it was only supposed to be an hour). She then had lunch with her parents. My father-in-law called me, to tell me that my wife and the MC had decided that we should probably separate. My father-in-law said that they talked to her for over an hour and she was originally convinced that she wanted a separation and probably a divorce, but that my father-in-law and mother-in law had convinced her otherwise. I love this guy. He REALLY cares about me and my wife. BUT, he kept telling me what HE said to my wife and what my MIL said to my wife (she needs to stay married for the kids, be nicer to her husband, your kids will get involved in gangs if you get divorced, your younger siblings will get divorced, etc.). I kept politely asking him what my wife said in response. He responded with "I'm sure... I'm pretty sure.. she understands and does not want to become separated." At first, I was a little relieved that they had "talked some sense into her." Then I started worrying about the fact that she was only trying to appease her parents and nothing in her heart really changed. He told me that she wanted to talk to me at 6 tonight - an hour before I was scheduled to see our MC. 

I thought long and hard about what she was going to say. I knew she felt pressure to please her parents and therefore felt trapped to stay in the marriage. I felt REALLY bad for her. So, for once in my life, I decided to LISTEN - REALLY LISTEN to her. I let her talk uninterrupted for about 45 minutes. Just keeping eye contact and letting her know (in a non-panicked way) that I understood what she was saying. 

She talked about what her parents said and how she felt she had no options. She talked about how she felt stifled as a person. That I second guess and control every aspect of her life. She never mentioned sex. She talked about an incident about 5 years ago, where we argued about $20 worth of fabric for seat covers for our kitchen table and how I got upset about not talking to me before she reupholstered the seats. She talked about how I get upset when she wants to volunteer for more activities and I complain. She talked about how she felt like she can never make me happy and felt she was not growing as a person and how she second guesses herself and is worried about me criticizing her. She gave several other things that caused her pain. 

I agreed with her completely. I didn't ONCE defend myself. I told her that our relationship absolutely SUCKED and we started out as more father-daughter and became more master-slave as time went on. She told me that was familiar when we were dating but as she got older it became hard for her to give her opinion. She gave an example of a happy couple we know, where the wife is a PTA President and how happy she is because her husband doesn't complain about how much time it takes and she feels important. I told her I want to be like that couple, that I hate that I control her and she responds negatively and we have this never-ending fights over POINTLESS stuff. Even the sex was all about control. She agreed. 

I told her that I'm done controlling her. She knows what our budget is. If she wants to paint the house pink, feel free. Do whatever you want. I won't even give you suggestions. She said, you'll complain if I fail. I said it will be great and happy for you if you fail because that means you are growing as a person. I don't want you to be 50 years old and think back at your life as accomplishing nothing and resenting me for it. 
We talked a lot more about her job and how she felt pressure to get one far from home and be away from the kids and how I resented her about that. I told her that that is only money and that she and the kids happiness is all that really matters and that we'll just see what life brings us as far as an opening close to home. We talked...

I then went to our MC. Told her what happened. She was a little shocked to say the least. I told her if my wife had actually followed through with the separation, my mother in law likely would have driven her to suicide. I told her that all of our issues were stupid fights over control and that sex was just a by-product. She agreed. I told her that my wife and I had agreed to take things one day at a time, but for now, we no longer fill a need to continue with her in MC...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Theseus said:


> Trying2figureitout, you keep repeating the same advice over and over in this thread and you seem to take it personally that he's not leaping to use it.
> 
> You keep insisting that he apologize to his wife for everything, yet some other people in this thread (like PHTlump) advise that he doesn't apologize. So maybe you should take a deep breath and understand that he's got a hundred things going on at once, and he's also getting a hundred opinions at once, so he needs to sort them out. Besides, because something may have worked for you, it doesn't necessarily mean it will work for the OP.
> 
> People who post here asking for help on TAM aren't obligated to follow the advice that others give them.


...and an apology for his control issues is what started him on the right path also ditching the MC

Anyhow good job glad all that came out in the end... now you can heal your marriage.

I stand by the process.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> ...and an apology for his control issues is what started him on the right path also ditching the MC
> 
> Anyhow good job glad all that came out in the end... now you can heal your marriage.
> 
> I stand by the process.


I actually never apologized. I listened and agreed with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I actually never apologized. I listened and agreed with her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Symantics. She called out your behaviors perhaps you should really apologize too.

Can't hurt.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Haven't read beyond the first page but I think religion has something to do with her recent hangups and rewriting of sexual history. Had that happen to a acquaintance of mine. Wife turned uber-religious few years into the marriage after joining a cult-ish church.

Edit: How wrong can I be?


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

*You're still trying to control her!*

You may not see it right now, but you trying to convince her to stay or promise you how you'll change for her is just another form of manipulation. It's not intentional and you mean the best, but to her you're trying to control her. 

You're not the only one doing it either. I would strongly suggest you talk to the inlaws and get them to stop pressuring her or even talking about reconciling with you. They're making your chances of working things out harder and harder with every sit down conversation about her feelings.... The only one who's qualified to do that is her therapist, so let her MC do her job.

Also about her wanting to move away from her life and responsibilities... That's another red flag for someone suffering from depression who resorts to idealized fantasies to escape problems in life. Read this: ScienceDirect.com - Journal of Experimental Social Psychology - Positive fantasies about idealized futures sap energy

You want her home right? You want her to see value in you and her life at home? Then get everyone to stop pressuring her and pull away yourself. She's severely upset right now and hardened her heart towards you. The only way you're going to change that is if you stop all the negative attitudes and actions she uses as her excuse and only show her happiness and distance yourself from her when you feel like venting, you're pissed off, or you're having a crappy day.

It's too often when you're with someone for years you forget how your actions will affect them later on. A little criticism while dating may not even regester, but after ten years when they're feeling insecure those same criticisms can build a lot of resentment. Do you think you may have forgetting how to pick your battles and agree to keep the peace and romance alive? I know I did, I'll never make that mistake again!


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> *You're still trying to control her!*
> 
> You want her home right? You want her to see value in you and her life at home? Then get everyone to stop pressuring her and pull away yourself. She's severely upset right now and hardened her heart towards you. The only way you're going to change that is if you stop all the negative attitudes and actions she uses as her excuse and only show her happiness and distance yourself from her when you feel like venting, you're pissed off, or you're having a crappy day.
> 
> It's too often when you're with someone for years you forget how your actions will affect them later on. A little criticism while dating may not even regester, but after ten years when they're feeling insecure those same criticisms can build a lot of resentment. Do you think you may have forgetting how to pick your battles and agree to keep the peace and romance alive? I know I did, I'll never make that mistake again!


Actually, I just listened to her and agreed that I hated our dynamic. Her depression is based primarily on feeling controlled / micro-managed by me and it has completely clicked with me that my attempts to manage her day-to-day life is completely counter-productive to the relationship we now have. I do not feel the least bit resentful about this change and look forward to it. 

It's not possible for you to understand our dynamic from my posts. My wife has discussed our new understanding about how to change our relationship dynamic with our MC and she believes this will result in REAL change for the better between us. We have all decided to stop MC for now and work on this ourselves on a day to day basis.

I'm putting no pressure on her to stay and her parents have stopped as well because it's now a non-issue with my wife. In fact, I told her that if I started controlling her again, that I would file the divorce papers, because I don't want to live in the type of relationship that we have - I want a wife that feels free to grow as a person and express herself; not a child/servant. 

I am not going into this blindly. Couples have disagreements. But we will no longer be fighting over control issues. I hear you about the need to vent my aggressions away from her. I'm going to continue attending a weekly men's church group related to marriage issues. The true suffering some of these guys have gone through and/or are going through really keeps things in perspective for me. I also had a discussion with a friend today that has gone through similar struggles and we've agreed to get together a couple of times a month to vent and encourage each other. I am no longer pre-occupied with trying to "fix" my marriage. That was a source of the huge fights lately. As far as everyday stress, I can usually feel that coming and plan on dealing with that at the gym, not at home. 

I've already received and responded to two very nice calls and texts from my wife today - which hasn't happened in quite awhile. She and I feel very encouraged and the mood between us has dramatically shifted upward. So I don't have to go home and "act" positive. I genuinely feel that way.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

I agree with quitting MC and not obsessing over trying to "fix" your marriage, but don't try to wing it on your own in between church meeting either. Until you've mastered the 180 mindset and studied up on those wtf scenarios you're not out of the fire.

Get yourself a good book like "Divorce Remedy" and I can send you "Stop your Divorce" if you want. Just keep the option open to go back and read it anytime you want to or just a few pages at a time every few days. It's more about motivation than anything else. I mean you can't force yourself to think about divorce recovery if you don't like focusing on it.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> I agree with quitting MC and not obsessing over trying to "fix" your marriage, but don't try to wing it on your own in between church meeting either. Until you've mastered the 180 mindset and studied up on those wtf scenarios you're not out of the fire.
> 
> Get yourself a good book like "Divorce Remedy" and I can send you "Stop your Divorce" if you want. Just keep the option open to go back and read it anytime you want to or just a few pages at a time every few days. It's more about motivation than anything else. I mean you can't force yourself to think about divorce recovery if you don't like focusing on it.


Thanks. I have Stop Your Divorce and similar items. I think reading them helped me realize that arguing with her when she was trying to give me the "let's separate" talk was pointless and counter-productive. I've got the 180 stuff and read it, but you're right that just winging it will not work (at least until it becomes more natural). My "sex rank" (in terms of being in shape) is already high enough given my workout regime over the last 2 years as well as just paying much better attention to my appearance in general. I also help out A LOT with the kids now, but that's not something I need to be reminded of through reading. I enjoy it and the recent possibility of seeing a lot less of them scared the crap out of me.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I can tell you that, in all likelihood, your problems are not over. Right now, you've decided to stop trying to influence your wife and give her what she wants. And that's why she's happy. Most people are happy when they win. She has made her demands and you have agreed to her terms. Good for her. Less good for you.

Now, to stop trying to control her is a good plan. You should be doing that. But giving in to her other demands, like letting her volunteer when she has proven unable to do that and maintain her domestic duties, isn't really going to help you in the long term. All you're doing is agreeing to take on more of her duties. You're agreeing that her time is worth more than yours.

Now, that's your choice. If you really believe that her time is worth more than yours, then you're on the right track. If not, you will resent your new arrangement at some point. At that point, you will be back in trouble. Or, if your wife comes up with some new demands, which is entirely possible, you'll be back in trouble.

I just want you to have your eyes open. I have seen too many men in bad marriages have a single good conversation, or a good weekend, come back and declare "mission accomplished," only to be right back here a few weeks or months later to expect that you really have solved your issues.

But I wish you luck.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

:iagree:I have see this too many times for it to be a rare occurance. 

Dad, you're still too fresh in this divorce to pull out and try to wing it on your own..... And while group MC may have been a poor choice, you will still need to have the option open for IC for yourself. You don't know enough about what you're doing and like PHTlump said if you pat yourself on the back now you're going to find yourself kicking yourself in the ass later on. 

Because if there's one thing these stories are famous for it's that the wayward swings from liking you one day and wanting to work on the marriage, to hating you and telling you they need "Time and space..... To think about their feelings..... And how they're not sure...... It's all your fault" etc. It's usually at that point time after time I see the betrayed who told us they didn't need TAM anymore right back here a week later saying "I screwed up...... Poor me". 

Take your ego and leave it at the MCs door. You have so much crap ahead of you that it's not even enough to handle by yourself.... You'll need as much help as you can get! With a side of humility and a freakin ton of patience and anger management.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> I can tell you that, in all likelihood, your problems are not over. Right now, you've decided to stop trying to influence your wife and give her what she wants. And that's why she's happy. Most people are happy when they win. She has made her demands and you have agreed to her terms. Good for her. Less good for you.
> 
> Now, to stop trying to control her is a good plan. You should be doing that. But giving in to her other demands, like letting her volunteer when she has proven unable to do that and maintain her domestic duties, isn't really going to help you in the long term. All you're doing is agreeing to take on more of her duties. You're agreeing that her time is worth more than yours.
> 
> ...


Trust me - I know we will still have lots of issues. This was a breakthrough that we've not been able to get to after years of MC. She has already started being more physically affectionate. She is also interacting with me a lot more and asking my opinion about things. One day at a time though and I need to not over-react during the next inevitable stressful moment. As far as my time, her volunteering more will, in most cases, will just result in me spending more time with the kids, which I enjoy. Maybe a few more charity dinners/events with her too. I usually enjoy those since they are an excuse to go out as a couple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Fair enough, these were my impressions from your original post but if I'm wrong that's a good thing. * If she comes from a controlling father it's possible that she sought those qualities in a husband because that's what she knows but then resented you for it. * The best thing to do now is to stop behaving like her father and start behaving like her partner. Stop micromanaging, stop pushing what you want all the time, and make some effort to acknowledge what she thinks. That's all you can do really, *ask her often what she needs from you *and continue with counseling. I have a tough time believing that this is really about you pushing for sex while dating; this is someone that feels controlled and is acting out. Remember, us women don't want sex with our father any more then you want sex with your mother
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your own post points out the difficulty with asking someone what they want, particularly if they are emotional immature or uneducated. She may not know what she really needs. 

His Needs/Her Needs can be helpful to isolate what is really important.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> :iagree:I have see this too many times for it to be a rare occurance.
> 
> Dad, you're still too fresh in this divorce to pull out and try to wing it on your own..... And while group MC may have been a poor choice, you will still need to have the option open for IC for yourself. You don't know enough about what you're doing and like PHTlump said if you pat yourself on the back now you're going to find yourself kicking yourself in the ass later on.
> 
> ...


I must have left you with the wrong impression. We are not divorced and my wife was not "wayward" (as far as having an AE or PE with anyone). My wife was considering a separation, which did not happen. I don't at all feel like the "betrayed one." I treated my wife life a child, not a husband, since the beginning of our relationship. That has now changed. 

I've done years of IC regarding our marriage. I am definitely leaving that option open. You're right about me being too quick to pat myself on my back. We are taking it slow, but after years of MC, with temporary times of good times followed by a return to our conflicts, I am HOPEFUL that this is a true change, in both of us, both in behavior and attitude. Still, I know what you are talking about since I've been there SEVERAL times.

I DO have some anxiety about how this "new and improved us" will grow as a couple. My mantra is patience and one day at a time. Honestly, I just need a break from "fixing" us right now and focus on work, the kids and just enjoying my "wife's" (as opposed to my 4th kid) company.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your own post points out the difficulty with asking someone what they want, particularly if they are emotional immature or uneducated. She may not know what she really needs.
> 
> His Needs/Her Needs can be helpful to isolate what is really important.


I read that book a couple of years ago, but since my perspective on our relationship has now changed, it's probably a good idea to look at it again.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

It sounds to me like you made a breakthrough of understanding. Yay!

This site helped me when my husband and I were fighting very badly (he was unemployed for a period which devastated his sense of self). The OuchKit Cards - A communication tool for couples 

Your wife may still have ptsd-like symptoms from being controlled like that by her family and then, admittedly, by you. I personally think it takes tremendous guts to do what you did. Most people can't drop their weapons, drop their defenses, and just be present with their loved one like that. That is true manliness to me. You were her safe harbor. If the two of you can learn not to use your emotional reactions to control one another, you will come together as a bonded pair in the bedroom ;-) 

I don't want to harp and insist, I only mention it because I find the lessons universal whether or not bpd is involved...did you go to DBT Skills List Everyone can stand to learn these skills of emotional self-regulation and effective interpersonal communication.

I feel optimistic for you, Dadof.


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## salamander (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh, may I add:

I was listening to a program yesterday about radical forgiveness, and it struck me....my husband and I have worked up to a marriage mostly free of blame. Blame does not solve anything, whether you blame yourself or the other person. It polarizes, it forces one person to be right, and the other wrong.

Consider your marriage to be an elephant. You are at the head, all you can see is a tremendous head with a trunk, huge flapping ears, and a hungry little mouth. She is at the tail: all she can see is an enormous arse with a flicking little tail and the exit hole for huge piles of crap. Both of you are RIGHT, but neither of you has the perspective to see the entire elephant. Reverse roles for various situations, still, it IS possible to hold OPPOSITE OPINIONS AND STILL BOTH BE "RIGHT".

Everything is just as it should be, you and your wife are at the threshhold for major personal development as you learn to dance as a team rather than bottom/top. SO EXCITING!!!


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

*You treated her like a child since the beginning, and she married you anyways?*:wtf:

Ok, there's one thing you've got to understand..... She wouldn't have stayed with you for this long let alone married you having you treat her like a child. No woman would, unless she liked being treated like a child. She liked having you be the father figure and the bad guy.

Before I go on......
*
Have you ever felt like your wife was more like a child or teenager than an adult woman?

Did you feel like it was your career to take care of her emotional needs at the expense of your one own?

Your anger.... Did you become angry with your spouse because you felt like you were not allowed to express your anger around her?

Do you feel censored in your marriage? 

Didn't you say she had a troubles childhood? Did she tell you this right around the time you first met her?

Does she use certain words out of context over and over to criticize you like traumatize, torture, abuse, rape, kill? As in "You're traumatizing me!"

Does she have any friends that are very close to her at all times or does she seem to have friends one week and enemies the next? 

Do you know anything about her past sexual relationships? Did she have any relationships last longer than a year?

Does she cry easily? 

Does she have panic attacks around you when you show any sign or aggression?

Does she seem to have mood swings with a lot of anger or insecurity?

Do you hear phrases like "Why do you love me" or "I can't believe you're with me" whenever you're extra sweet to her? 

Have you heard phrases like "I can't trust you" or "You're always mean to me"? *


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

salamander said:


> It sounds to me like you made a breakthrough of understanding. Yay!
> 
> This site helped me when my husband and I were fighting very badly (he was unemployed for a period which devastated his sense of self). The OuchKit Cards - A communication tool for couples
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll take a look. I also had a realization this morning that we had a perfect storm that resulted in two things: (1) by taking a different approach than her parents (who used guilt and pressure to keep us together) and FULLY AGREEING with her assessment of our relationship I differentiated myself from them in her eyes and became a partner, NOT another parent and (2) the intermittently strained relationship I have with my inlaws was GREATLY improved both in my heart as well as well as in my wife's perception. I have told my wife that her Dad demonstrated an incredible amount of love for ME (not just my wife) and that I will NEVER forget this and that I will love him forever. She was genuinely touched about that and even called me at work to tell me so. If her parents hadn't taken their well-intentioned but guilt-filled approach with her, our "perfect storm" never would have happened. Of course, they'll probably go to their graves believing they just talked some sense into their daughter... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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