# Ok, I'm the bad guy



## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

I've been reading thread after thread here for about 4 hours now. It's all very useful stuff and I appreciate the candor and willingness of the members here. I didn't really want to start a topic about just me, but it seems to work so let's see where it takes us...

I've been married for 2 1/2 years. Within the first 3 months of my marriage, I found myself on craigslist writing emails looking for casual sex. I got no response and didn't ever physically cheat on my wife, but she found the emails a couple of months later. The main focus for her was "why" , "do you really want to be married to me" and "did I actually do it". Well, the latter question was easy for me, because I knew I hadn't.

Not so much for her, obviously, but I only had the truth to go on. The "Why' was much tougher as it required much self examination. I found my answer (long winded, but I may get to it later), but it didn't make sense to her. The main reason for that was because she has her own ideas as to why and since my discoveries don't synch up with her notions, she doesn't accept them or understand them. I also never had any doubt about wanting to be married to her. I pursued her so hard and I left all rational though behind and just let my truest emotions lead on that one. Also, not an easy sell to her.

I have admitted to her that if I hadn't been caught, I probably would never had admitted it and most likely kept on doing it. That doesn't sit well with her. 2 years ago, I. sat at my computer in a hotel and let all of my honesty pour out of me. My deepest thoughts, regrets, outlooks, proclivities, everything was laid out. I did it for her, but I've come to realize that it was more for me to get all of my marital secrets and shortcomings down in front of me so I could deal with them. Change myself into the person I REALLY wanted to be.

This letter, for her, has been concrete evidence that I don't want her or to even be married. She took it as a personal attack against her. She refuses to see my intent that it was all a personal indictment on myself. Now, I understand how that can happen. She's feeling inadequate and doesn't trust my honesty.

So here's what I'm looking for;

She feels I am a manipulator in our relationship and that my love for her is "bul%#it". We are at the point of being permanently apart because she feels I am the same person who did those awful things to her. She sees change, but it's not enough. She sees the smoke of infidelity, but not the roaring conflagration of commitment, love and remorse. Again, I understand it. I just don't know what I'm doing wrong here. There are plenty of details to be had in this, so please feel free to ask. I have no qualms about answering anything if it will help me to understand this situation.

As an aside, I travel a lot for work...about 6 months out of the year, but this isn't a bone of contention. She knows who she married. That aspect was openly discussed. Obviously, it's not conducive to dealing with our problems when I travel, but it is what it is. When I'm home, I don't work and we get to spend a LOT of time together.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You may as well start by saying why you think you wanted to cheat on your wife. As an FYI, I did cheat on my wife. Not proud of it, but it's forever part of my past.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Fair...

I was 40 when I got married. It was my first time. I've been living a bit of a rock and roll bachelor lifestyle for most of my adult life. I've had a few bf/gf relationships, but I always ended up becoming bored with them and talking my way out. I got a little too good at that. During our courting, which was about 18 months leading to marriage, I was still poking around, openly flirting and being a little too casual with women. No sex, no kissing, nothing physical.

That's what I've always done. I thought when I got married, things would just switch on and all that would go away. That I would only want to be with her and that we could just fulfill one another in every way. We didn't do any counseling, which was a mistake, and I was clearly naive about how marriage works. That is, it's WORK to make it what you want. 

I honestly didn't think twice about what I was doing. It was ingrained behavior. Not a reflection on her, but a shortcoming of mine as I've come to understand. Is that a crappy reason?


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

A bit more...

I'm curious as to why she is constantly telling me she wants me to have sex with someone else. She tells me she wants to take me to the Bunny Ranch in Nevada because she thinks that's what I want. Just tonight, as I'm about to go to LA for the week, she says "You have my permission to have sex with whoever you want in LA". I don't get this.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> A bit more...
> 
> I'm curious as to why she is constantly telling me she wants me to have sex with someone else. She tells me she wants to take me to the Bunny Ranch in Nevada because she thinks that's what I want. Just tonight, as I'm about to go to LA for the week, she says "You have my permission to have sex with whoever you want in LA". I don't get this.


She testing you. As you stated, she doesn't believe you truly want to be in the marriage. By saying "go for it"...she is testing you, to see if you want the bachelor life or to be married. I would advise you NOT to take her up on this.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

I have no desire to do this at ALL!!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Your actions made your wife feel like she was worthless to you. If she is valuable to you, then you need to demonstrate it. You're going to have to put some work into proving to her that you do want to be with her. And, you really will have to get to the bottom of why you behaved to reprehensibly and with so little regard to the pain you've caused her; only by confronting those issues can you be sure that you won't do those things again and only when she sees that you're not going to hurt her again will she consider trusting you. When you break someone's trust, you have to be willing to do the work of earning it back. It takes time, but if she loves you, she will probably give you a chance...if you try hard enough. The more you deny that she is hurt by your actions, the more you try to defend yourself, the more you ruin your chances of her being vulnerable. Forget trying to defend yourself. You screwed up. Big time. Well, we're all human and we make mistakes (and yours were pretty crummy -- Craig's List? Really? She's gotta feel like she is less valuable slime to you because slime is all you get on CL!), but if you really want her than you have to prove to her that you understand that you messed up and that you won't do it again and that you really do want to be with her. And you have to mean it and be sincere. It might take a lot of effort, but if you really mean it then you'll make that effort.

If you don't have a counselor, I suggest that you get one. It can be really helpful to have a objective person there to talk to about these kinds of things. Counselors don't have personal investments in you or your life, so they're less likely to judge and that means you can be more honest and let down your guards and really figure out why you would do such a thing. 

You've got to admit that it was a foolish thing to do. Now, why did you act in a way that so wholly disregarded your vows? Were you afraid of the commitment you made? Were you just trying to ease insecurities? I ask because only by figuring out WHY you did these things can you get to a place where you are making decisions whole-heartedly, decisions that might be a little smarter than forsaking your wife for slime online. 

Forgive me if I sound harsh. You sound sincere. I hope for your sake that you haven't lost your wife for good, but I can bet you've left her with painful scars and heartbreak; if you care, you'll try to make up for it with honest introspection, sincere apologies, and an effort to be a better guy than that.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

A test... or perhaps she wants you to cheat once for all, to burn the last bridge so she can file with no doubts at all. If she were that sure you don't love her she'd never insist about you ****ing elsewere in order to prove her point.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Right then, Moxy....

Important to relate that i have always taken full responsibility for it all. We have done plenty of counseling together and it's helped some. I think I have clearly identified that when it came down to it, my pleasure mattered more than anything in past relationships. My morals were skewed, but I can't act like that AND have her as my wife. That;s the work that I've done over the last 2 years.

As I say, I was good at talking my way into and out of things. I didn't realize what a deceptive practice that was, so I have given in to full transparency with her. She has all my passwords and access to everything. It's an easy choice for me to change these things because it's very clear what I want. I want her as my wife and I have to comport myself as such. Simple.

She just doesn't believe that it's as simple as I'm making it. I needed the wake up call and I turned on a dime. She is still leery. Again, understandable. So, every day I am ceaselessly vigilant in my practices. Occasionally, I say or do something stupid or something that triggers her, but I am always resolved in the face of it.

Important to note that she has had this type of thing happen to her before and I basically just stuck a knife into her most vulnerable frailties. I was SO stupid and SO selfish, I didn't even notice that part. I feel like all I can do is keep being the man she wants, but she's faltering more and more. Today has been terrible and she's texting me about separation as we speak. The reason I'm here is I'm hoping someone will throw something out there that clarifies her actions and feelings. Let's just keep trying. Call BS on if you see it!!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Have you tried asking her if there's something you're doing (or not doing) that is exacerbating her doubts?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> I found myself on craigslist writing emails looking for casual sex.


As in



> I found myself robbing a bank





> I found myself...


Do you see the problem there?

You just sort of found yourself doing something highly inappropriate?

Your stabbed your wife in the heart. She thought she knew you, but found out she didn't.

She is now reacting to the 'you' she found out about, but you say she is wrong, this is not you at all.

But remember she found out about where you found yourself.

Counselling for yourself and real contrition is a must.

How would you have felt if the situation were reversed?


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## blueskies30 (Jan 27, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> A bit more...
> 
> I'm curious as to why she is constantly telling me she wants me to have sex with someone else. She tells me she wants to take me to the Bunny Ranch in Nevada because she thinks that's what I want. Just tonight, as I'm about to go to LA for the week, she says "You have my permission to have sex with whoever you want in LA". I don't get this.


My husband is traveling now too after we have reconsiled. I didn't tell him too many words he could go have sex with someone, but I did just today tell him to do something for himself tonight ANYTHING he wanted. What I meant by that was for him to find a girl. I just didn't tell him in so mnay words. It was a test for sure.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I have a question for you after listening to a call in radio show where a man got caught by his wife after he secretly caught up with an old female friend via facebook. She asked him whether he thought he deserved his wife, and he said he frankly found it baffling that she loved him at all. This led the show host to suggest he had never believed he was loveable (tough childhood). That's a pure stab in the dark on the why. You won't hurt my feelings if I totally missed the mark, your post just reminded me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> Have you tried asking her if there's something you're doing (or not doing) that is exacerbating her doubts?


We talk about this a lot and always comes down to the same thing... I am fully confident about WHY I did what I did. She was adamant from the off that this was the main thing she needed an answer to....why. I did counseling, talked to many people and did some harsh introspection and I came to the conclusion that's in the above posts.

This explanation does not satisfy her. We keep running into this wall of what she thinks it is and what feels right to me. She just won't accept that my behavior was all based on a naivete of what marriage really was. I made a mistake not getting any pre marital counseling to discover that I needed to change a number of things that were ingrained in my personality to be the married man I wanted to be and be the husband she wanted. I really just thought the switch comes on and everything is fine. Again, my moral compass was locked into something that was way off. I practiced deceit in all of my previous relationships without calling it deceit.

She therefor feels that I am just trying to manipulate her into seeing things my way just so I can be with her. She thinks I just don't want to lose a fight. She thinks it's a dishonest answer because it doesn't fit in with what she thinks it is. There has been no reconciling this point. All I have is the truth here, so I have to stick with it. What else can I do?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

If you are not in marriage counseling, find a good pro-marriage counselor (many are not). Sometimes hearing what you've said many times from an objective third party, like a therapist your wife likes and respects, might possibly do the trick. A counselor will gently debate with your wife that you have done the hard work of putting on your big boy pants and waking up to what it means to be married. I hope that this part of what you've said is true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> As in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is all true with one tiny, but enormously important exception. I am not saying she is wrong about the 'me' she found out about. That person was there. I'm saying she doesn't believe I can just change the way I say I have FROM that person to the person I am becoming. the person that I want to be. She just doesn't think it's possible. Again, all I have to work with is my everyday actions. My willingness to forgo my own feelings, my own hurt and my own desperation for what she needs is with me the work of an instant. These actions are not hard. 

I can't communicate very well with her, though. She needs more, but the things that I try, the honesty I bring forth and the love I try to shower all the time goes into an abyss. She's miserable because I'm not doing the right things, but I don't know what those things are. She tells me and I think I'm doing them, but then I get back that I'm so far off the mark I'm not even playing her sport.

I appreciate the words "She found out about where you found yourself". That is absolutely accurate. I try very hard not to overlook that. She saved me from that other life and when I say that to her, it sends her off to such a bad place, I can't even tell you. Why is that so damaging to her?


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I have a question for you after listening to a call in radio show where a man got caught by his wife after he secretly caught up with an old female friend via facebook. She asked him whether he thought he deserved his wife, and he said he frankly found it baffling that she loved him at all. This led the show host to suggest he had never believed he was loveable (tough childhood). That's a pure stab in the dark on the why. You won't hurt my feelings if I totally missed the mark, your post just reminded me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This has been brought up too, but we are both inclined to think that she has that issue more than I do. I want nothing more than to show her and have her whole heartedly believe that she is as loved as any woman around her. I know that's a tough sell, given what she has to deal with, but I never cease to bring that point home. She's self deprecating and not in a good way. I don't like it and I think it's indicative of some deeper malady that she's not facing. Trouble is, I'm not particularly good a such analysis and whenever I suggest that she might want to maybe do some counseling to figure out why she can't accept anything with me, she becomes very offended and defensive. She thinks I'm putting the whole thing on her and we're done talking. She feels it becomes manipulation at that point.

So how can I handle that?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> I can't communicate very well with her, though. She needs more, but the things that I try, the honesty I bring forth and the love I try to shower all the time goes into an abyss. She's miserable because I'm not doing the right things, but I don't know what those things are. She tells me and I think I'm doing them, but then I get back that I'm so far off the mark I'm not even playing her sport.


Get the books His Needs / Her Needs, Love Busters, and the 5 Love Languages--many forum members including myself found these to be excellent for reviving love in a marriage. Sometimes people express love one way but it isn't perceived that way by their spouse. All 3 books have detailed questionnaires on their respective websites that probably better at getting this out of your wife than you are.

There is also a list of things a remorseful spouse can do to help their spouses heal from an affair on this forum. Not sure if you've read that yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> This has been brought up too, but we are both inclined to think that she has that issue more than I do. I want nothing more than to show her and have her whole heartedly believe that she is as loved as any woman around her. I know that's a tough sell, given what she has to deal with, but I never cease to bring that point home. She's self deprecating and not in a good way. I don't like it and I think it's indicative of some deeper malady that she's not facing. Trouble is, I'm not particularly good a such analysis and whenever I suggest that she might want to maybe do some counseling to figure out why she can't accept anything with me, she becomes very offended and defensive. She thinks I'm putting the whole thing on her and we're done talking. She feels it becomes manipulation at that point.
> 
> So how can I handle that?


I posted an answer on the previous page based on how sure you were that my suggestion isn't accurate re loveability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

OK, I'll find those books asap. I did read the remorseful spouse entry. Very useful.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> OK, I'll find those books asap. I did read the remorseful spouse entry. Very useful.


Also my post on the prior page recommends MC, my point again is that they will gently persuade her if you are sincere that it's nothing darker than waking up to what it means to enter a lifelong partnership. Surely you aren't the first person an experienced MC has met who learned the hard way. Make sure the MC is trained to handle issue of infidelity and is pro-marriage, most are not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Those books suggested are a great idea.

You also said that you sometimes slip up and cause her to trigger; in what way?

It's going to be really hard for your wife to trust you again. Do read the suggested books. They'll help you find out things that can alleviate the rift. Read them together.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

You're in a deep pile of trouble man. I feel your pain and your desperation. A woman's love is like a wine glass. Once it's broken its VERY difficult to put the pieces back together.

You need to stop using words and start simply BEING the man you want to be. You CANNOT talk your way out of this one. At some point continuing to beat yourself up in her eyes and say sorry does more harm than good. It sounds to me like that point has long since passed. Start saying less to her, ESPECIALLY about this whole issue. Don't initiate convos on the topic. If she does, just listen to her, empathize. Be Cary Grant when she's talking.

Words can only rebuild trust a tiny amount. The rest has to be achieved through action, usually over a long period of time. Past a certain point, more analysis, more remorse is just a turn off. You've already got whatever little trust rebuilt you could gain from your words, you already bought your chance. Additional talking just shows weakness and kills attraction. Now, your talking is beginning to kill your chance. You recognize this yourself, she's calling you a manipulator. It's easier for her to deal with leaving a manipulator than a desperate man, easier on her conscience.

She is invested in you but you're giving her a deep beta vibe and she is INSTINCTIVELY wired to reject that. You can give her the best rational arguments in the world, you could be frickin EINSTEIN and she would reject everything you say. She already has divorce in mind. She doesn't tell you because she doesn't want to hurt you. She doesn't want you to become more beta than you are already acting. You have to shut up and simply start BEING a trustworthy man. STAY QUIET! She will wonder what changed. And believe me, she wants to believe you've changed. She wants to FEEL a change.

Trust is rebuilt by regularly keeping small promises. You're in a very difficult spot, because keeping promises usually involves doing something FOR someone else. But this is going to appear APPEASING, SUPPLICATING and thus extremely BETA. (turn her off you big-time). So do not invent things to do for her. Do not run around trying to keep promises. Keep promises to YOURSELF and let her see you achieving them. Do things for YOURSELF. Example, tell her you're going to the gym at 3pm. Then come hell or high water. Make sure you ***in do it. Rinse, repeat. You'll be on the right path.

It takes a long time. If she moves ahead with separation, DO NOT TRY TO STOP HER. That will work against you.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Yea craigslist was probably the worst idea. Since they got rid of the Adult services section they moved to the dating section. So most likely you were talking to a prostitute. Most people with enough internet knowledge to open a FB page know this. So my friend your wife thinks you were trying to find a *****. Plus from your OP I didn't get the idea that you realize what you have done to her. I have read a lot about her reaction and about what you did and didn't do and why you did. It seems to me that you don't think this is a big deal when it is.
I think your wife is right in thinking that you are not ready for a marriage because every married person here would have a major problem with what you did. 
It is called remorse. That is what she is looking for and not getting. The "I am sorry but it was no big deal" line is very indicative of failure to miss the point.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> Those books suggested are a great idea.
> 
> You also said that you sometimes slip up and cause her to trigger; in what way?



My slip ups are usually an attempt at getting closer. I try, for instance, to be as open an honest with her as I can. I tell her everything so she doesn't think I'm hiding anything. Here's an instance:

I was on the road and we had a long work stretch and the last night we went out and had a few. Pretty rare for me, actually. Anyway, there was this young girl in the bar who was all over everybody and she ended up all over me. I was tipsy, but I didn't do anything inappropriate. After talking with her a while, she wanted me to take her home. I suggested she call someone to do that because she was way too drunk and she did. Her angry sister came in, scowled at us all and took her away.

I told my wife this story the next day when I was well hung over, and she got very upset with me. For telling her. She said she didn't want to know about stuff like that. I had no idea. I was just sharing a story, but it was the WRONG thing to do. I don't have a proper sense of what those things are with her or WHY that's something she doesn't want to know. It's all honesty in my book, but I don't know the boundaries.

Things like that. Good intentions, but the wrong actions.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> You're in a deep pile of trouble man. I feel your pain and your desperation. A woman's love is like a wine glass. Once it's broken its VERY difficult to put the pieces back together.
> 
> You need to stop using words and start simply BEING the man you want to be. You CANNOT talk your way out of this one. At some point continuing to beat yourself up in her eyes and say sorry does more harm than good. It sounds to me like that point has long since passed. Start saying less to her, ESPECIALLY about this whole issue. Don't initiate convos on the topic. If she does, just listen to her, empathize. Be Cary Grant when she's talking.
> 
> ...


You are losing me here. I don't really know what you're saying at all. What do you mean BETA?


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> You are losing me here. I don't really know what you're saying at all. What do you mean BETA?


BETA behaviors are those that women will find INSTINCTIVELY less attractive than those exhibited by ALPHA males... natural leaders. Think of movie characters portrayed by actors like Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis, Harrison Ford, even Cary Grant. They are all portrayed as ALPHA. They do not APPEASE. They do not SUPPLICATE. They care LITTLE what others think of them. They SAY LITTLE and ACT with STRENGTH. They exhibit maturity and NON-NEEDINESS. They don't apologize for who they are. They DOMINATE. They don't ask permission. They DIRECT. They Control. They take charge. They are what women mean when they say they want a "REAL MAN". Any behaviors the opposite of those are BETA or characteristics of a BETA male.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

badbane said:


> Yea craigslist was probably the worst idea. Since they got rid of the Adult services section they moved to the dating section. So most likely you were talking to a prostitute. Most people with enough internet knowledge to open a FB page know this. So my friend your wife thinks you were trying to find a *****. Plus from your OP I didn't get the idea that you realize what you have done to her. I have read a lot about her reaction and about what you did and didn't do and why you did. It seems to me that you don't think this is a big deal when it is.
> I think your wife is right in thinking that you are not ready for a marriage because every married person here would have a major problem with what you did.
> It is called remorse. That is what she is looking for and not getting. The "I am sorry but it was no big deal" line is very indicative of failure to miss the point.


Well, I do regard this as a huge deal. I have from the second it broke. That's why I immediately called for counseling the next day. That's why I did an embarrassing and painful exposition into what my problems were and have done nothing but realize and work on them ever since. That's why I went to everyone I care about, all my friends, all my family, anyone I care about or who cares about me and told them ALL in detail what I had done. They hold me accountable for my actions as much as anything else.

I've never said this was no big deal. This is something that my wife gets tripped up on as well. I'm saying that in the moment, I didn't think it was a big deal. Obviously, I needed to look into why I felt that way at the time and that's what I've done and that's why I've done so much and will continue to do whatever I can to make it right. I have all the patience in the world for this. I've never put a time limit on it, I've never had a single moment when I've though "Man, it's been over two years and this is taking to long" or anything like that.

My wife has run out of patience. Nothing is happening for her and she is starting to panic, thinking that if she doesn't act now, she may never get out. Wondering WHY has it taken ME so long to make things right. See, she's pretty good at diagnosis. It comes very easy to her, so when others don't see the same things, which are SO obvious to her, it's maddening to her. She doesn't understand it. I'm kind of slow in figuring these things out. It's not a natural instinct for me. My gut feelings aren't strong because I clipped my capacity to diagnose people because I always hated it being done to me.

The one thing in my whole life that does not fall into that is my love for my wife. I don't need any explanations as to why I want to be with her always. I just do. It's very easy to say "Well if that were true, then you wouldn't have etc etc", but there are no blanket statements when it comes to love.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> BETA behaviors are those that women will find INSTINCTIVELY less attractive than those exhibited by ALPHA males... natural leaders. Think of movie characters portrayed by actors like Clint Eastwood, Bruce Willis, Harrison Ford, even Cary Grant. They are all portrayed as ALPHA. They do not APPEASE. They do not SUPPLICATE. They care LITTLE what others think of them. They SAY LITTLE and ACT with STRENGTH. They exhibit maturity and NON-NEEDINESS. They don't apologize for who they are. They DOMINATE. They don't ask permission. They DIRECT. They Control. They take charge. They are what women mean when they say they want a "REAL MAN". Any behaviors the opposite of those are BETA or characteristics of a BETA male.


OK, so here's this...

Most of what I've done to make things right can be found in my actions. I set up the counseling, I left my computer at home when I went on the road, I called and talked to her several times a day while traveling, I don't argue with her points of view in this matter, I got rid of every old girlfriend/fling/whatever out of my life. Any female friends I do have, I had her meet so she could get to know them , get a feel for them, get a sense of my relationship with them so she could feel comfortable knowing them as people and not ghosts in some other life of mine.

I gave her an open book of my life. She has every password to everything I have....email, Facebook, phone password, credit card accounts, forums I belong to...everything. We bought a house together and when the realtor insisted that I put my name on the house alone to get a better finance rate, I would not budge from getting her on it with me. We pay half a point higher in interest because of it, but I don't care because it's the right thing to do.

My wife is a bit of a slob. I am the one who keeps the home clean. I clean up after her and her 15 yr old son, who lives with us. I take on the role of step dad to the best of my ability and never complain about it. It's part of taking care of my family.

The trouble STARTS when we talk. If I bring something up, it usually doesn't last long. She gets defensive or I get misunderstood and it ends before it starts. We do ok in therapy, but not on our own. If she voices something and I respond incorrectly, which I usually do, then it's back to me being a master manipulator to get what I want and I don't understand anything, she gets hurt, openly voices that I don't actually love her, that I'm more interested in winning than solving anything and that's it.

We had about a 1/2 hour conversation today, which is pretty good for us, and during that, she expressed how disappointed she was that I didn't approach her more. She tells me that for the last 2 years she's been putting on a fake smile during the day, completely checking out during sex (as she put it, pretending I'm the person she knew before all this happened) and longing for me to eventually say the right thing. I know all of this, but she gets very offended when I bring it up and the conversations go NOWHERE.

When I ask her what it is that she wants, she tells me, very simply, that she wants what happened never to have happened. She wants the man she fell in love with and wanted to marry before this happened. Now, am I talking too much or not enough? The latter, I'd say, except, I don't actually know WHAT to say.


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## UnwarrantedParanoia (Sep 1, 2011)

I am in the same boat as your wife, all I want is for the actions to have never happened. To wake up from my nightmare and see that my husband is still my knight in shining armor, the person I thought he was and not the jerk that made a complete fool out of me. Ignorance is bliss, huh? My husband is trying so hard and I love him with all my heart, but as the days and months (9) go by, I am beginning to believe that I am a Morituri and I can't live a lie. 

Your wife obviously loves you if it's been 2 years and she is still with you even though she feels this way. I feel bad for you because it seems to me like you really love her and have obviously changed for her, unfortunately, it's impossible for you to give her what she wants. No matter what you do or say, you can't undo your actions.


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## UnwarrantedParanoia (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm sorry for my rambling above when you asked for advice of what to say: Things my husband says that make me feel better and why I haven't left. How sorry he is for the pain he caused and is causing me, how he wishes he could go back in time and see what he had, how I am the most important everything in his life and will place me first above everything and everyone. 

I am on a rollercoaster of extreme highs and lows. When he senses a low, he repeats the above and tells me we are not going to let us go down the slope. 

And it works for a while...........but yet here I am at 4:40 in the morning [sigh].


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> My slip ups are usually an attempt at getting closer. I try, for instance, to be as open an honest with her as I can. I tell her everything so she doesn't think I'm hiding anything. Here's an instance:
> 
> I was on the road and we had a long work stretch and the last night we went out and had a few. Pretty rare for me, actually. Anyway, there was this young girl in the bar who was all over everybody and she ended up all over me. I was tipsy, but I didn't do anything inappropriate. After talking with her a while, she wanted me to take her home. I suggested she call someone to do that because she was way too drunk and she did. Her angry sister came in, scowled at us all and took her away.
> 
> ...


I guess I should question- HOW you told her this story

it may have come across as you bragging that you could have bedded this woman and you are making "sacrifices" to be with her


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

GetTough said:


> You're in a deep pile of trouble man. I feel your pain and your desperation. A woman's love is like a wine glass. Once it's broken its VERY difficult to put the pieces back together.
> 
> You need to stop using words and start simply BEING the man you want to be. You CANNOT talk your way out of this one. At some point continuing to beat yourself up in her eyes and say sorry does more harm than good. It sounds to me like that point has long since passed. Start saying less to her, ESPECIALLY about this whole issue. Don't initiate convos on the topic. If she does, just listen to her, empathize. Be Cary Grant when she's talking.
> 
> ...


Seenthrume:

As a betrayed spouse I have to disagree with SOME of the above advice, particularly the beta male vibe thing. 

IMO, that's hogwash. My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially. 

He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again. 

IMO, he needs to act a little Beta so I can see him as husband material again, instead of as a potential cheater who woman throw themselves at. 

He does not want the divorce, but he does not apologize enough. Also, you can't possible apologize enough. It will not make her disrespect you. It is needed. You need to grovel a bit after being a cheater and breaking marriage vows. 

After all simply taking you back is a very humiliating experience for the faithful spouse so a groveling on your side is a good thing, not a beta thing. 

Now if you were the betrayed spouse I would agree that you need to start acting alpha.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

UnwarrantedParanoia said:


> unfortunately, *it's impossible for you to give her what she wants. No matter what you do or say*, you can't undo your actions.


And that's it in a nutshell. More talking = more emotional pain. Seenthrume, stop talking about making things right already! You are trying TOO HARD. You CANNOT talk your way out of this. You CANNOT *SORRY* your way out of this. You CANNOT BUY your way out of this, which you are trying to do by your actions. She can tell. And she's right. All of these actions are now hurting you. Live as though you are trustworthy. Just live, be strong and happy. The more you talk about an issue that is painful to her, seenthrume, the more you push her away. She sees you trying hard - the consequence is that she gets a RATIONAL feeling that she OUGHT to try with you... but at the same time she gets EMOTIONAL feeling that's BLEH about you. In love, emotions win. period.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> OK, so here's this...
> 
> Most of what I've done to make things right can be found in my actions. I set up the counseling, I left my computer at home when I went on the road, I called and talked to her several times a day while traveling, I don't argue with her points of view in this matter, I got rid of every old girlfriend/fling/whatever out of my life. Any female friends I do have, I had her meet so she could get to know them , get a feel for them, get a sense of my relationship with them so she could feel comfortable knowing them as people and not ghosts in some other life of mine.
> 
> ...


Your actions have gone beyond remorse, wanting to make things right. They have shifted into panic, desperation, rationalization, pleading, appeasement and supplication. That's why you're losing her. A desperate man is a deeply unattractive man.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> My slip ups are usually an attempt at getting closer. I try, for instance, to be as open an honest with her as I can. I tell her everything so she doesn't think I'm hiding anything. Here's an instance:
> 
> I was on the road and we had a long work stretch and the last night we went out and had a few. Pretty rare for me, actually. Anyway, there was this young girl in the bar who was all over everybody and she ended up all over me. I was tipsy, but I didn't do anything inappropriate. After talking with her a while, she wanted me to take her home. I suggested she call someone to do that because she was way too drunk and she did. Her angry sister came in, scowled at us all and took her away.
> 
> ...


Why were you at the bar in the first place? Why would you let some tramp hang all over you at all? You drew the line way too late. You don't say "now that we've been flirting all night, sorry no thanks" instead, with the first flirty talk out of her mouth you should say "sorry taken, bye". So you DID do inappropriate things....not nipping it in the bud soon enough; allowing yourself to be in that situation at all.

These are not the actions of a guy who feels bad about hurting his wife. You don't seem to feel remorse.

Here is the thing, you did something good there -- you told your wife about the inappropriate behavior. Good.

But, you're still doing the inappropriate behavior! Whether it is a secret or in the open, it is wrong. She can't trust you because you're not trustworthy, do become trustworthy! 

Stop hanging out at bars. Stop getting drunk around sleazy women. Then she will trust you not to screw her over, because you will be a guy who isn't walking into temptation.

Do you feel bad a out what you did? Do you understand what you have put your wife through? I don't think you get it. Truly. It seems like you're only upset that you got caught and you want her to be happy that you're admitting to be this guy that continues to disrespect her. Can you think about this for a minute?

How would you feel if your wife got provocatively dressed up and went to a bar and flirted with and responded to the attention of a bunch of guys? Would that make you feel wanted or loved? And if she'd already trolled for sex somewhere in the past and then did this flirt fest? Would you think it was excusable? 

Actions speak louder than words. Are you really sorry about what you did? Can you talk a little more about why you did it?

You said you valued your pleasure only. Well, why? Why didn't you think about her first? Why wasn't she the source of your pleasure? The thing is, you're choosing other women and you still don't see that you haven't changed enough. Words aren't enough, you've gotta mean them. Think deeper.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Sara8 said:


> Seenthrume:
> 
> As a betrayed spouse I have to disagree with SOME of the above advice, particularly the beta male vibe thing.
> 
> ...


He needs to act a little BETA, you say. Seenthrume has acted a LOT beta so far and things are getting worse for him. Go figure. Every post of his is filled with Look what I've done/doing to make things right - why isn't she accepting my apology? She DOESN'T FEEL it for him anymore, that's why. Seenthrume, when she calls you a manipulator - that means she feels you are trying to BUY HER OFF by doing things for her. and she's RIGHT! By your actions and esp. your words you are making her feel ugh, his guy is trying to BUY me, he must therefore be LOW VALUE. You are triggering her instinctive rejection mechanism. You cannot TALK, APOLOGIZE or BUY your way out of this, no matter what any woman tells you.

Men are often conflicted but women are NATURALLY conflicted. Rationally, they want apologies. Rationally they want to be empowered. Rationally they want the attention and the groveling. Emotionally, you WILL lose them if you go overboard in giving them these things. Emotionally you lose respect. Emotionally they want YOU to have the power.

>>Also, you can't possible apologize enough.

At some point soon, seenthrume is going to begin to resent the fact that his pleading is making things worse. He KNOWS its not making a difference. He knows things are getting worse. That's why he's here! He just hasn't connected the two yet - he's making it worse. 

He'll feel she OUGHT to accept his apology. He's done SO MUCH! Two years already! He will feel he has a RIGHT to another chance. He DESERVES another chance. When he doesn't get that chance, which will happen, if he continues as he is, he will likely move from genuine contrition and remorse to anger and resentment.

>>He is acting very alpha and that is why he is STBEH. I fear he will cheat again. 

If your stbeh isn't "whatever" about the divorce, he is NOT acting VERY ALPHA. Someone who was acting very alpha wouldn't give a **** what you thought, wouldn't waste time trying to make it work with one woman who doesn't want him, and would be in a new loving relationship or juggling 3 other women already, because he can have who he wants.

>>My STBEH is very alpha. He is attractive, well built, comfortable financially. 

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be ALPHA. Its a very common misunderstanding, so I don't hold it against you  Good looks, physique, wealth. NONE of these have ANYTHING to do with being ALPHA. Any woman will tell you, that a guy can be the richest, most good-looking guy in the world, but he's only got to say ONE stupid thing to be a real turn-off.

>>I fear he will cheat again. 

You don't trust him. You say he's acting alpha, yet to you, he is no longer ALPHA. So do you feel like he's alpha or not? Women trust ALPHA males, period. They give themselves and their bodies up willingly. Alpha does not mean CHEATER. Alpha does not mean RICH or GOOD-LOOKING. Alpha means PRO-SOCIAL and DOMINANT. Someone who is a cheater is not pro-social, they are a selfish jerk. Having the behaviors of a cheater is not alpha. Again I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be alpha. Your stbeh is not acting that way, THAT"S why you are rejecting him.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I disagree with the posts telling you to be more alpha. You're going to come across as too cavalier. That will up the repulsion factor after your cheating.

However, in trying to talk your way into getting her forgiveness, you're being too pushy. When she doesn't want to talk, drop it. You hurt her, so you have to help her heal at her rate and not at yours. Take her lead in that. 

I think you should just work on actions more. If you treat your marriage like it is the most sacred thing you have, then your actions will show that you're protecting it. Let's say that you own a museum full of magical stuff with your wife. While she's busy, a thief comes to the door trying to sweet talk her way inside. You don't talk to the thief for an hour before telling her to get the eff away, you immediately tell the thief to get away. The tramp in the bar is the thief here. Why would she trust you enough to be her partner if she can't trust the way you safeguard the museum? If you believe that what is in the museum is valuable, then you will behave in a manner that shows is, you will be proactively protective of it. This would show your wife that you care. Talking to thief doesn't show that.

You're responding to what you think she needs, not to what she actually needs. She's waited for two years for you to figure it out and you haven't yet so she is beginning to believe that you never will. Now is the time to figure things out before she bails on you for good.

Figure out what her actual needs are and only then can you tell if you can meet them! Read the "His Needs Her Needs" book with her. Talk about each chapter with her. Read the "love languages" book and talk to her about it. Don't keep talking your way out of what you did because you're going to look like a guy who is making excuses. Move FORWARD and try to improve your relationship and yourself.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> And that's it in a nutshell. More talking = more emotional pain. Seenthrume, stop talking about making things right already! You are trying TOO HARD. You CANNOT talk your way out of this. You CANNOT *SORRY* your way out of this. You CANNOT BUY your way out of this, which you are trying to do by your actions. She can tell. And she's right. All of these actions are now hurting you. Live as though you are trustworthy. Just live, be strong and happy. The more you talk about an issue that is painful to her, seenthrume, the more you push her away. She sees you trying hard - the consequence is that she gets a RATIONAL feeling that she OUGHT to try with you... but at the same time she gets EMOTIONAL feeling that's BLEH about you. In love, emotions win. period.


How exactly am I trying to buy or talk my way out of this? Nothing I am doing is an attempt at justifying my actions or pretend it didn't happen. I've stated very clearly that talking gets us nowhere, but she is very upset that I DON'T TALK MORE than I do. We try, but it fails every time. I am doing exactly as you suggest here. Just living. Just BEING the man I need to be. I don't talk about all the good I've done or defend myself when she gets upset at the situation, I just let her have that. I never stifle it.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Court her. Date her. Make her fall in love with you again, not by trying to atone and make excuses but just recognizing that you screwed up and now you want to make something new with her that's great. How would you win her heart if she were your college sweetheart? Show her how much you love her and how awesome she is. And mean it.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

>>My willingness to forgo my own feelings, my own hurt and my own desperation for what she needs ...

You're not giving up what you need emotionally for yourself, your giving it up for her. You're trying to buy her.

>>We bought a house together and when the realtor insisted that I put my name on the house alone to get a better finance rate, I would not budge from getting her on it with me.

You argued over this? If so, she practically told you she sees no future for you both. Yet you forced her. It IS manipulative. You forsook the money to bind her to you and keep her close. Now you will see this as an expression of love. I'm telling you how SHE sees it - manipulative, supplicating and instinctively unattractive to her.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Seems you are waiting her out. Sorry, but that's how it reads. You have done all this work, you have embraced honesty, but in a very in-your-face way. You think differently than her. She does not trust you. 

I don't really get the bar girl thing.....were you expecting her *not* to get upset by this? It seems like you are proud of yourself that you didn't "hook up" on CL or bed the woman in the bar......Your wife is not going to give you gold stars for this. You were so proud of being honest and "sharing" that info, yet it hurt her even more......and you don't seem to understand why.

Agree with moxy, you need to go deeper.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

moxy said:


> Court her. Date her. Make her fall in love with you again, not by trying to atone and make excuses but just recognizing that you screwed up and now you want to make something new with her that's great. How would you win her heart if she were your college sweetheart? Show her how much you love her and how awesome she is. And mean it.


In this situation, women think they want this, but when the guy does it and they're still not feeling it for him, they are left wondering why.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> >>My willingness to forgo my own feelings, my own hurt and my own desperation for what she needs ...
> 
> You're not giving up what you need emotionally for yourself, your giving it up for her. You're trying to buy her.
> 
> ...


You totally misread this. My wife and I both wanted to have our name on the house, but the realtor, not my wife, THE REALTOR was pushing to just put me on it. When we discussed it, we agreed that it would help us in our troubles. It was a way for me to show my commitment to her. We both agree on that. I only brought that up because of the assertions that I'm not taking any actions or am doing more talking than anything. That example was for the board.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

>>I've stated very clearly that talking gets us nowhere, but she is very upset that I DON'T TALK MORE than I do.

"Talking gets us nowhere" = "I don't want to listen to you". That's how she hears it. She's not upset you don't talk. She's upset because you are defensive, you are arguing, you are not validating her feelings, you are not deeply listening to her. That's what she means she says you don't talk. You two are not connecting.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Seems you are waiting her out. Sorry, but that's how it reads. You have done all this work, you have embraced honesty, but in a very in-your-face way. You think differently than her. She does not trust you.
> 
> I don't really get the bar girl thing.....were you expecting her *not* to get upset by this? It seems like you are proud of yourself that you didn't "hook up" on CL or bed the woman in the bar......Your wife is not going to give you gold stars for this. You were so proud of being honest and "sharing" that info, yet it hurt her even more......and you don't seem to understand why.
> 
> Agree with moxy, you need to go deeper.


She wasn't upset about the bar girl thing, she was upset that I TOLD her about the bar girl thing. I didn't approach telling her with any sense of accomplishment that I was doing so, I just had a story to tell her and it struck her wrong. She's told me flat out that the situation didn't bother her at all. It was me telling her about it that she didn't like. She said "You don't need to tell me things like that". So yes, I have a hard time figuring out what to and what NOT to tell her sometimes because I don't understand why the situation doesn't upset her, but telling her about it does.

Yes, I am waiting a bit. I'm being as proactive as I can be without being aggressive. As I say, I have never gotten impatient, not even in private, over how this is taking. It takes however long it takes and I;m willing to go the whole way.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> You totally misread this. My wife and I both wanted to have our name on the house, but the realtor, not my wife, THE REALTOR was pushing to just put me on it. When we discussed it, we agreed that it would help us in our troubles. It was a way for me to show my commitment to her. We both agree on that. I only brought that up because of the assertions that I'm not taking any actions or am doing more talking than anything. That example was for the board.


That certainly makes the situation better than I thought with the house financing. Since she wanted to go on the house, then that's great, I think you helped the situation there. The alternative would have given her the impression money was more important to you than she was. HOWEVER - the fact that you talked about whether it would help in your troubles would have still given her the feeling that you were trying to buy the relationship back. I mean it is clear to me you are really trying, and I'm sure she can see this too. I'm just trying to help you get her to FEEL an attraction for you again it rather than simply understand your remorse.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> That certainly makes the situation better than I thought with the house financing. Since she wanted to go on the house, then that's great, I think you helped the situation there. The alternative would have given her the impression money was more important to you than she was. HOWEVER - the fact that you talked about whether it would help in your troubles would have still given her the feeling that you were trying to buy the relationship back. I mean it is clear to me you are really trying, and I'm sure she can see this too. I'm just trying to help you get her to FEEL an attraction for you again it rather than simply understand your remorse.


Fair enough. Keep it coming. Thanks to you all so far. I hope I can keep going with this. I'm getting on a plane now, so I look forward to more comments on the other end.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> She wasn't upset about the bar girl thing, she was upset that I TOLD her about the bar girl thing.
> 
> It was me telling her about it that she didn't like. She said "You don't need to tell me things like that".


I'm pretty sure that she is more upset about what happened than she is letting on because she has her guards up. Either that or she just expects you to be the sort of guy who gets yourself into these situations and just wants you not to tell her about it because she doesn't want to face it. If it's the latter, your relationships is seriously doomed.

Now, if you had told her that you went with some buddies to a bar, a girl hit on you and you told her that you were married and then you left the bar. That would have been a different story. The story you told is about a guy who is being shady and wants his wife to be proud of the fact that he's toeing the line but not overstepping it. If the story was about a guy who is careful enough not to go near the line, then she would feel differently about it.

I think you're hearing what you want to hear and not really thinking enough about what's going on here. There is no way you're wife would have been okay with you allowing some trampy girl to hang all over you and just object to hearing about it. She obviously objects to both. Now, if she's telling you she only objects to the latter, it means she's disgusted by your choices and has given up hope that you can be a better guy. If she has lost faith in your ability to be a decent guy, that would be why she isn't feeling it for you. The only way to restore her love is to be a better guy and demonstrate it to her. That is, you're not trying to prove to her how much you adore her, but how you have changed as a human being -- but that means you have to change as a human being, first.

You're acknowledging your flaws. Good! However, here, you're still being really defensive, still trying really hard to work within very narrow margins of movement. Stop for a minute. Your wife is disappointed in you because she doesn't see you as worthy of her love. That's how badly you've screwed up by what you've done. Your wife can't help loving you, though, so the fact that she's in love with a guy she deems unworthy is doubly corrosive to her soul. If you are not that guy, then don't try to pretend to be that guy. However, if you want to make things better, I suggest you work on being a more authentic and committed and genuine partner instead of just appearing that way. I'm not trying to insult you, but I think you're just not seeing past the surface here and you really need to peel back a couple of layers to understand what is happening. It's going to suck, but if you want things to get better, then truly examine what you're doing and why beyond the tidy answers you're giving here.

I know my advice sounds harsh but....I really am hoping that you get it and that your relationship with your wife improves. Don't be defensive of the comments that sound harsh, just think about them for a minute, just take them in and see if you can understand why people are saying what they are saying.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

tbh some of your efforts to rehabilitate are good to see and unusual when one checks out thread after thread in here.

One thing you are missing however (and this btw is not your fault)
is that she simply needs more time to come to grips with this stuff.

Many of us are / have been on the receiving end of a WS 's appalling behavior, indiscretions and although we are often told by friends and family "time will help heal" just exactly how and when that shows itself is simply an unknown quantity

You may well be doing all the most logical and 'right' things to reconcile this situation but that in her head may mean little until the time is right for her.

It is worth you bearing that in mind


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> I'm pretty sure that she is more upset about what happened than she is letting on because she has her guards up. Either that or she just expects you to be the sort of guy who gets yourself into these situations and just wants you not to tell her about it because she doesn't want to face it. If it's the latter, your relationships is seriously doomed.
> 
> Now, if you had told her that you went with some buddies to a bar, a girl hit on you and you told her that you were married and then you left the bar. That would have been a different story. The story you told is about a guy who is being shady and wants his wife to be proud of the fact that he's toeing the line but not overstepping it. If the story was about a guy who is careful enough not to go near the line, then she would feel differently about it.
> 
> ...


Again, this is all pretty fair. I do have a tendency to just respond instead of take it in.

The thing in this post that strikes me is that there's more to my own diagnosis of why I did what I did. I've worked very specifically on that and what I've come up with makes the most sense to me. There have been many other things that have come up as maybe, but none of them FEELS right to me. From my wife, from friends, family, counselors, most people, if they don't have anything concrete still make suggestions with the idea that something they say might trigger something I haven't thought about.

In therapy, that happened to some extent and a few things did clarify when that happened, but only to solidify what my final answer is on this. My wife's hang up...well let me put it out there...I'll tell you what I think and you can tell me what you think...

She is convinced that something happened in my past that led to a distortion of morality in me. A specific event and that I need to do further therapy/introspection/whatever it takes to figure that out, THEN and only then will it make sense to her and she'll be able to move on. I understand that I can't make any arguments against what she feels she needs to be able to move forward. If that never comes, however, then what? Well, she's told me that if we never get that particular resolution, then my reasons for doing it are far worse than what I actually did. I really don't know what to do with that.

I put a lot of thought into what you're saying about BEING the person, authentic as you put it, and just APPEARING to be that person. I am certain beyond any doubt that I am not at all just appearing to be that person. I will stop short of saying I AM that person, but I am certainly becoming that person. As I've said, I am always attentive to myself and what it takes for me to be the man I want to be. I slip up, but I always catch myself and make myself accountable. That's probably why I told her the bar girl story.

I don't do it right sometimes, but I'm always aware of what's going on in me. That took a little time, but it's becoming second nature to me. Those slips cost us, but I never let it sway me.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Headspin said:


> tbh some of your efforts to rehabilitate are good to see and unusual when one checks out thread after thread in here.
> 
> One thing you are missing however (and this btw is not your fault)
> is that she simply needs more time to come to grips with this stuff.
> ...


I'm not at all impatient about it anymore. I took that attitude on in the last year. I put no time constraints on anything. I have my whole life.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Just so we don't get mired down in minutiae here...

Last night my wife felt the need to stay in a hotel. I have left town today on a work trip and she just wanted me gone so she could get her head together without me. She is in full on loathe mode. Sent me many texts that were all driven by hurt and frustration. I know she didn't mean much of it, but it does become difficult for me to check all of my own feelings at the door. I'm simply not allowed to have them, but when I don't exhibit them, she baits me and goes for the most painful thing she can say. She knows it's killing me, but I don't show it.

This is the bed I've made I know that. Thing is, she ended the conversation with these 2 things; talk of separation and that we need to discuss it and that I was free to do whatever I wanted with whomever I wanted while out of town and that she would likely be doing the same thing.

The rub here is that in the first year after this whole thing broke, she would levy the harshest threats she could muster at me. She hated being that person and after a while and swore to me that she would never even use the word divorce or separation unless she REALLY meant it. I told her I have no interest in discussing separation. It's not a topic on the table for me. If it's something she wants, she can figure out what to do and just let me know. I'm just not going to do it. Separation means divorce to me, plain and simple. Am I wrong reacting like this? I'm just not going to fight her on anything.

I really am leaning toward the equation of; what I did + who she is as a person= no reconciliation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> A bit more...
> 
> I'm curious as to why she is constantly telling me she wants me to have sex with someone else. She tells me she wants to take me to the Bunny Ranch in Nevada because she thinks that's what I want. Just tonight, as I'm about to go to LA for the week, she says "You have my permission to have sex with whoever you want in LA". I don't get this.


I get where she is at with this. When I first married my exh we traveled for work about 50% of the time on a weekly basis. I trusted him and had no issues with it until at about the 18 month point I discovered that he had online relationships with a few women. As I investigated I also found out that he had met some of the women when he traveled to their city. In a few cases he had flings... one for an long weekend.

The difference I see between what he did and you is that you got caught before it got to the point my husband was at.

After the discovery there was the huge problem that he still traveled. I had absolutely no way of knowing what he was doing when he was on travel. There is a certain 'letting go' that one has to do to emtionally handle their cheating (or wanting to cheat) spouse traveling all the time.

I don't think your wife is testing you. Her saying these things I like her throwing her arms up and saying "there's nothing I can do to feel safe while you are gone. So you might as well just go ahead and cheat."

Your wife's imagination is working over time... boy do I know how that goes. She is crying out in pain that she does not trust you and cannot do anything to trust you.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think your wife is testing you. Her saying these things I like her throwing her arms up and saying "there's nothing I can do to feel safe while you are gone. So you might as well just go ahead and cheat."
> 
> Your wife's imagination is working over time... boy do I know how that goes. She is crying out in pain that she does not trust you and cannot do anything to trust you.


I can see that. If she really is just hurting over what you've done, then it's just going to take time for things to resolve themselves. You're going to have to give her time.

How long ago was D-Day?

It sounds like you're really struggling and doing your best, too. Does she have a counselor or therapist helping her through this, as well?

Hang in there, buddy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> We talk about this a lot and always comes down to the same thing... I am fully confident about WHY I did what I did. She was adamant from the off that this was the main thing she needed an answer to....why. I did counseling, talked to many people and did some harsh introspection and I came to the conclusion that's in the above posts.
> 
> This explanation does not satisfy her. We keep running into this wall of what she thinks it is and what feels right to me. * She just won't accept that my behavior was all based on a naivete of what marriage really was.* I made a mistake not getting any pre marital counseling to discover that I needed to change a number of things that were ingrained in my personality to be the married man I wanted to be and be the husband she wanted. I really just thought the switch comes on and everything is fine. Again, my moral compass was locked into something that was way off. I practiced deceit in all of my previous relationships without calling it deceit.
> 
> She therefor feels that I am just trying to manipulate her into seeing things my way just so I can be with her. She thinks I just don't want to lose a fight. She thinks it's a dishonest answer because it doesn't fit in with what she thinks it is. There has been no reconciling this point. All I have is the truth here, so I have to stick with it. What else can I do?


I agree with her. Saying that you did it because you were naive about what marriage is, is pretty lame.

It might be true that you were naïve about marriage thinking that you would magically become someone other than yourself once married. It is absolutely true that marriage does not magically cure people of their issues and turn them in faithful love bunnies. But that is not why you sent out looking for strange on CL.

You went out looking for strange on CL because you like strange and you thought you could get away with it behind your wife’s back. Your wife knows this is why you did it. Like you said you would still be doing it if she had not caught you. And by now you might very well have picked up on someone. If you did not find someone on CL you probably would have branched out to the married but cheating type hookup sights.

Your wife is probably miffed because to say that your behavior was caused by marriage not magically changing you. It’s similar to saying that you happened to find yourself no CL looking for strange. The words we choose to use tell a lot about where our heads are. 

You did not happen to find yourself on CL doing something wrong and hurtful. You PURPOSELY CHOSE to go to CL to run an ad to cheat. It’s not that marriage did not magically change you but that until your wife caught you, you PURPOSELY CHOSE to not take control of your own actions and treat your wife with love.

You said that you used to be very good at talking yourself out of situations. Well it’s not working this time apparently. I think that your wife is a smart woman. She sees the same things I do in your flawed attempt at conning her. Oh I know, you don’t think you are trying to con her. But you are.. out of habit, just like looking for other women while you have a committed woman is your habit.

She also knows that the possibility of you changing over the long haul is very slim. She also probably is exhausted and not pleased with the idea that she feels she has to monitor your every move to make sure you don’t repeat… you know like a mommy watching her naughty 5 year old who gravitates towards the most dangerous thing in the room every time.

I’m not saying that you cannot change. I’m not saying that you are not honest about truly loving your wife. I’m saying that you have not truly taken responsibility for your actions and instead are blaming it on the lack of magic marital makeovers.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> Just so we don't get mired down in minutiae here...
> 
> Last night my wife felt the need to stay in a hotel. I have left town today on a work trip and she just wanted me gone so she could get her head together without me. She is in full on loathe mode. Sent me many texts that were all driven by hurt and frustration. I know she didn't mean much of it, but it does become difficult for me to check all of my own feelings at the door. I'm simply not allowed to have them, but when I don't exhibit them, she baits me and goes for the most painful thing she can say. She knows it's killing me, but I don't show it.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the rollercoaster that is the emotional life of a person who has been cheated on. While you did not cheat, you clearly inteneded to.

Many BS (betrayed spouses) lash out the way your wife does. 

The fact that you travel so much is probably going to doom your marriage. Being separate 50% of the time will often doom marriages without the problem your marriage now has.

Also, the thing about her saying she will probably be with someone else now as well. That's not all that unusual. I recall feeling that I wanted to cheat. For a while it was like an obsession. I did not follow through with it but I wanted to strike back and hurt him like he hurt me... to even the score. 

Unfortunately revenge affairs are very common.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I agree with her. Saying that you did it because you were naive about what marriage is, is pretty lame.
> 
> It might be true that you were naïve about marriage thinking that you would magically become someone other than yourself once married. It is absolutely true that marriage does not magically cure people of their issues and turn them in faithful love bunnies. But that is not why you sent out looking for strange on CL.
> 
> ...


This is all pretty lucid stuff. Makes a lot of sense to me. Just to clarify a couple of things so we're on the same page...

I don't stop at saying that I was simply naive about marriage and that's why I went trolling. That emboldened bit was not properly stated by me. What you say in addition to that is absolutely accurate. I did do it out of habit. It's been my behavior for so long, that I just didn't think twice about it when I did it. She has a REALLY hard time with my saying that if I hadn't been caught, there's a good chance I'd still be doing it. That's me being honest about it to help aid things, but it's a dagger to her. I guess it's because she sees it as a reflection on her. She sees a lot of things that way.

Also, minor but valid, I didn't actually put an ad out. I answered a couple. No justification there, just want the facts to be out there. I don't want any confusion.

The bits about her being exhausted by feeling she has to monitor me, that she can never REALLY know what I'm doing have been very clearly stated to me by her. I am always aware of those things. I do whatever I can to be transparent and to be clear about what I'm up to on the road, but at some point, if it's going to heal, that leap of faith is going to have to be taken.

Please tell me how you think I am trying to con her? And how am I not taking responsibility? I'm not lashing back at you, it's just I hear the same things from her and I feel I'm doing everything I can NOT to con her and I am ALWAYS finding ways to show her that I am taking full responsibility, but it just come up short.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

My wife thinks I need a traumatic loss to change. Some sort of full on, profound break down all is lost moment of traumatic loss. I had something I can only liken to a near death experience. I thought for sure I had lost her completely and when I saw the glimmer of hope that was the possibility that we could save our marriage, I was a changed man. I have endeavored to the best of my ability to do what I need to change.

Am I alone in thinking that this is sufficient? I will lose her if I don't change and I break down in tears over the thought of that. Can a person change on such a thing?


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> >>I've stated very clearly that talking gets us nowhere, but she is very upset that I DON'T TALK MORE than I do.
> 
> "Talking gets us nowhere" = "I don't want to listen to you". That's how she hears it. She's not upset you don't talk. She's upset because you are defensive, you are arguing, you are not validating her feelings, you are not deeply listening to her. That's what she means she says you don't talk. You two are not connecting.


Right. That is very frustrating. We need an intermediary just to talk about certain topics. This is the main reason I regret not going to pre marital counseling.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> How long ago was D-Day?


Two years and 2 months ago


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> Please tell me how you think I am trying to con her? And how am I not taking responsibility? I'm not lashing back at you, it's just I hear the same things from her and I feel I'm doing everything I can NOT to con her and I am ALWAYS finding ways to show her that I am taking full responsibility, but it just come up short.


You stated that you have come to the conclusion that you did it because marriage did not change you like you thought it would; that you were naïve about marriage.

That statement sounds like a con job. 

While it might be true that you were naïve and thought that marriage would somehow miraculously change you, the fact that it did not change you is not why you did it.

You went to CL because that’s who you are. You are a man who is always looking for other women. You are a man who does not have healthy boundaries. The incident in the bar, with the dunk woman hanging all over you, makes that clear. The fact that you then told your wife that you put yourself in the position of having a drunken woman hang all over you in a bar says that you do not have healthy boundaries. The fact that you claim to not know why you’re telling her that would upset her shows that you have not yet realized/faced your motivations in your behavior with women, your marriage and your wife.

While I disagree with your wife on the quest for some deep trauma that occurred in your life that would cause you to have a need to constantly look for the next woman I get what she is saying. She wants to know that your behavior is not based on pure disrespect of her… that here is another compelling reason why you would behave in this manner.

To me that deep trauma does not matter as much as your actions in the right here and now. Long term psychiatric therapy has proven to not be very affective. Behavioral therapy is very effective. Just start being who you want to be and you will train yourself to be that person.

There most likely is something in your past that makes you the way you are. If you look back at your parents you might figure it out.

Some time after I married my husband I realized that I married a man who was like my father.. a liar and cheat. The odd thing is that I did not know that my father was a liar and a cheat until after I married my husband. I had grown up thinking that my father was a wonderful man, the best man in the whole world. I kept this image of him for decades after he passed away when I was 21. 

But at about the same time I found out about my husband’s infidelity is also found out who my father really was. At that time some of my family members came forward with stories about his cheating on my mom, his gross lies, etc. 

I was seeing a counselor at the time to deal with my husband’s affairs. I told he counselor about the new revelations about my father. After a while she said asked if I noticed that my husband and father were basically the same. The more I looked into it the more I realized that this was true. Even though I had not consciously known that my father was a lying cheat, I apparently knew it subconsciously. And so like many I married a man who was a lot like my father. Pretty weird.

You are probably emulating the behavior, or perceived behavior, of a significant male in your younger years. Or you are rebelling against a some significant woman in your youth.. like perhaps a mother who you felt you needed to get away from and/or hide everything from.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

After poking around on the site some more, I've just run across the Betrayed Spouse Script. There is gold to be found there...

The affair fog - This is what it was. I was in that bubble for my whole adult life. This concept makes total sense. I don't really know why I was walking in the fog like that. My parents have been married 46 years and I was surrounded by familial marriages my whole life. I always felt I would be like the adults in my life, but in every relationship in MY adult life, I found a reason not to stay. As I look back on all of those, most of them were ended by me for very selfish reasons that I was too chicken s**t to admit, hence the "Talking my way out" of them. I cheated on a woman I had a nearly 9 year relationship with and I ended it shortly thereafter with a somewhat casual "Well, there's obviously something wrong here, or I wouldn't have cheated" kind of excuse.

I did all the honorable things in exiting that relationship. Gave her the house we had together, sent her money every month for a couple of years to help her transition, even though I wasn't legally bound to because we were never married. Sent her money whenever she needed it, gave her support whenever I could. I alleviated my own guilt for ending the relationship so flimsily, even though I was the one who cheated. That was my pattern. To end things guilt free with women. Selfish. Foggy.

Hysterical Bonding - this is a very important thing for me to understand. I've never heard of this until I experienced it with my wife and even then I had no idea it was at all common. Knowing this is actually a thing, I wish I had embraced it more than I did. I have been treating it as an anomaly. That one is going to cost me. i really didn't know. 

Told you I was slow and not very good at diagnosis.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You stated that you have come to the conclusion that you did it because marriage did not change you like you thought it would; that you were naïve about marriage.
> 
> That statement sounds like a con job.
> 
> ...


Through therapy, I have come to realize that I do have a history of hiding things from people close to me. That's why it was a good idea to take what I had done to all of my family members and be brutally honest with them. My mother and sister, they had a hard time with it. They actually tried to stop me from telling them this difficult truth.

Please refer to my above posts about the FULL reason behind my actions. It's so much more than naivete about marriage.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

This drunken woman thing....

You all seem to think I crossed some line with that. I was out with my friends. We had worked literally 45 days in a row 10-16 hours a day together and wanted to have a last nights drink. The girl was there, but not hanging all over me all night. The whole thing was not precipitated by me. When she started in with me, I very quickly showed her my wedding ring, removed her from my space and she just sort of hung around us all as we intermingled with each other.

She was somewhat interfering in our bit of revelry so I suggested she get a ride home. She suggested I give her a ride and I obviously refused. I asked her who she could call, she called her sister and was gone 15 minutes later. The next day, when my wife asked me about the prior evening, I told her what we did and just included her as part of what we encountered. What line did I cross?

Apologies if it seems like I'm telling a different story. I sort of gave the cliff notes version above. I do that thinking that because I know all the actual facts, that a shortened version will suffice for others.

Oh, just another fact here, that was about 15 months ago and I've not been drinking since. I really don't drink hardly at all. I pretty much stick to drinking when I'm with my wife.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> Through therapy, I have come to realize that I do have a history of hiding things from people close to me. That's why it was a good idea to take what I had done to all of my family members and be brutally honest with them. My mother and sister, they had a hard time with it. They actually tried to stop me from telling them this difficult truth.
> 
> Please refer to my above posts about the FULL reason behind my actions. It's so much more than naivete about marriage.


You describe your family as being very wonderful people. I would not imply otherwise either. 

But there is some real insight in this post. Your mother and sister has a hard time with you being brutally honest about these things. What I take from that statement is that your family hides behind a veneer to avoid the uncomfortable. No telling what is hidden behind that veneer. You might very well have learned this coping mechanism from a very early age… don’t tell the truth. Tell what people want to hear. Preserve the image. A lot of families operate like this.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You describe your family as being very wonderful people. I would not imply otherwise either.
> 
> But there is some real insight in this post. Your mother and sister has a hard time with you being brutally honest about these things. What I take from that statement is that your family hides behind a veneer to avoid the uncomfortable. No telling what is hidden behind that veneer. You might very well have learned this coping mechanism from a very early age… don’t tell the truth. Tell what people want to hear. Preserve the image. A lot of families operate like this.


Absolutely. It occurs to me now that I've never really incorporated this idea into the "Why I did it" scenario. Going to sleep on this one. Thanks a lot Ele.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

seenthrume said:


> This drunken woman thing....
> 
> You all seem to think I crossed some line with that. I was out with my friends. We had worked literally 45 days in a row 10-16 hours a day together and wanted to have a last nights drink. The girl was there, but not hanging all over me all night. The whole thing was not precipitated by me. When she started in with me, I very quickly showed her my wedding ring, removed her from my space and she just sort of hung around us all as we intermingled with each other.
> 
> ...


There is no problem with you going out for drinks with your friends. When I travel for work we all do this. It’s always a mix of males/females in the group. As an engineer, I’m often the only female. But we are all friends an no one crosses the line.
Your original post about this incident made it sound like the woman was hanging on you. So this is a lot clearer.

Your wife was not there. If we misunderstood with your telling of it, she probably got the same impression we did.


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## EverRain (Jun 6, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> .
> 
> Please tell me how you think I am trying to con her? And how am I not taking responsibility? I'm not lashing back at you, it's just I hear the same things from her and I feel I'm doing everything I can NOT to con her and I am ALWAYS finding ways to show her that I am taking full responsibility, but it just come up short.


Hi just wanted to chime in about this con idea. 

The way that I feel about my WH is that I must have been conned by him before DD when I actually thought everything was going pretty well in our marriage and obviously it wasn't, but he "conned" me into believing that all was fine.....So fast forward to 3 months past DD and he is acting very remorseful, and is giving me all of his attention, I am the center of his universe again...should make me feel good and it does and it does help me heal, but in the back of my mind I catch myself wondering is this really who he is or is he just trying to "con" me, so I won't leave him, and so he can get what he wants...


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> Just so we don't get mired down in minutiae here...
> 
> Last night my wife felt the need to stay in a hotel. I have left town today on a work trip and she just wanted me gone so she could get her head together without me. She is in full on loathe mode. Sent me many texts that were all driven by hurt and frustration. I know she didn't mean much of it, but it does become difficult for me to check all of my own feelings at the door. I'm simply not allowed to have them, but when I don't exhibit them, she baits me and goes for the most painful thing she can say. She knows it's killing me, but I don't show it.
> 
> ...


Ok here's the deal. She is moving on. I thought she would. She is not playing. She has checked out and is done with you. The best thing you can do is move on with dignity too. Then put her out of your mind, focus on yourself. You need to begin to show strength now, non-neediness, to have any chance of getting her back. You need to start thinking about doing the 180. LET HER INITIATE ALL FIRST CONTACT, do not reject her, but instead react with understanding and non-neediness like Cary Grant. You need to stop trying to win her back, actions like that will only drive her away further and faster. Your remorse and attempts to win her back, albeit sincere, went beyond anything she was comfortable with. Do NO MORE in any effort to change her perception of you.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/233195/thread/1302875291/last-1302891381/The+180


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> Right. That is very frustrating. We need an intermediary just to talk about certain topics. This is the main reason I regret not going to pre marital counseling.


Your efforts to solve things have been making things worse. You've gotta quit trying to solve this problem and just LET HER GO. You've given showing your remorse your best shot. You went beyond what I felt was useful in that regard. Now you just have to show her you can be non-needy, and strong alone, give her empathy when she wants to talk. That's your best chance. Anything else will just drive her away faster.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> I appreciate the words "She found out about where you found yourself". That is absolutely accurate. I try very hard not to overlook that. *She saved me from that other life and when I say that to her, it sends her off to such a bad place, I can't even tell you. Why is that so damaging to her*?


This!
From you've posted, the crux of why your wife is still upset is because if she hadn't found out about your CL trolling activites, you would have gone on & actually meet someone for sex.
She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want. 
That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you. 
Hence why she got pissed about floozie at the bar, her gut reaction was most likely "WTF, why do you put yourself in these situations" yet she told you she didn't want to hear because at the time she could not articulate her feelings.
Dollars to donuts, that was NOT about you not telling her things like that, it was about you being in the situation to begin with.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> This!
> From you've posted, the crux of why your wife is still upset is because if she hadn't found out about your CL trolling activites, you would have gone on & actually meet someone for sex.
> She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want.
> That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you.
> ...


Seenthrume, It's deeply unattractive to her that she has to keep tabs on you. It makes you look immature. She's wants a MAN she can respect. Seenthrume, you tell her, "you saved me". A woman wants a MAN with the strength to SAVE HER, not someone that needs saving from the result of his immature actions. I don't say this to hurt you, only to help you understand. She is leaving you because she has NO RESPECT for you. You have to win back her respect, FIRST by showing you accept her decision to be done with you, and you can take that like a man.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> After poking around on the site some more, I've just run across the Betrayed Spouse Script. There is gold to be found there...
> 
> The affair fog - This is what it was. I was in that bubble for my whole adult life. This concept makes total sense. I don't really know why I was walking in the fog like that.


No. You are not taking responsibility. Instead of blaming your actions on your own poor decisions, you're blaming it on an external concept, "a fog that descended upon you and clouded your judgment". That isn't what the fog is. The fog is a term used to describe the behavior and attitude of a person who is in a cheating mind-frame which indicates delusional thinking that is based on pleasure-seeking or whatever rather than on realistic logic. It's good that you're starting to see how this is tied into your own behaviors, too.

You can say that you were in a fog, but....don't give yourself an "a-ha!" moment and think that acknowledging the bad is all that matters. You didn't find yourself doing something like a sleepwalker who wakes in a strange room; you consciously made some really bad decisions because your thinking was short-sighted. You need to fully accept the blame as yours. You need to stop excusing it. I don't even think you do realize that you're excusing it because you're not being a manipulative person here; I think you're just trying to deal with it. You did it because you were being an idiot. Now....why were you being an idiot? Really and truly think about it. Yes, you were in a fog. You were in one because something you did caused the fog to emerge and you stayed in it. If you can figure out what you did or why you did it, it might give you some personal insight and self-awareness about it. This would help you not do things like it in the future. If your wife sees your self-awareness improving, she might have more faith in you.

I agree with a LOT of what Elegirl wrote in her post. Your wife seems to be barely clinging to this hope that your behavior was motivated by something broken in you and not just your complete obliviousness to how valuable she is and to actual disrespect of her. Overbearing mom issues? Distant dad issues? These sometimes contribute to the framework through which we see the world. I'm not saying that's what's your situation, but it's not an uncommon one. Also, you really do need to learn about healthy boundaries because you don't have them and I think that contributes to your wife's feeling of frustration with you more than you realize.




seenthrume said:


> I alleviated my own guilt for ending the relationship so flimsily, even though I was the one who cheated. That was my pattern. To end things guilt free with women. Selfish. Foggy.


You feel like you compensated these women for their time, in some way? Like any allegiance you had to them was paid back? I'm glad you're recognizing your selfish thinking. Why was your thinking selfish? Why were you unable to empathize with them in the relationship. Did you just see the relationship as a means to satisfy something that you needed and no more? Did you realize you were building a bond with another person? Consider these questions. 

Exit affairs are common and often the impetus for ending something when you don't have the courage to say "hey, these problems, they're here and so I want to go away now because I don't want to deal with them". You have to look deeper into what the problems are.

You see that marriage didn't change you, but you had hoped that if you took certain steps, you would magically be transformed. You weren't. And you didn't know how to transform yourself, so you kept on going the way you were going before. That's how it seems to me. But, now you're in a situation where you don't like the results of your actions but you don't really see that you can change your actions in a big way yet. You need to change YOU. Changing the relationship will not indirectly change you. Changing the way your wife sees you and relates to you will not indirectly change you. You have to change yourself. I think you see this as a nebulous thing, but don't really understand it yet. So, yes, your thinking is still foggy. You're not in "Affair Fog" but you're in a kind of foggy headspace which isn't allowing you to see beyond yourself and your immediate ways of being in the world. You've got to think PAST that.



seenthrume said:


> Hysterical Bonding - this is a very important thing for me to understand. I've never heard of this until I experienced it with my wife and even then I had no idea it was at all common. Knowing this is actually a thing, I wish I had embraced it more than I did. I have been treating it as an anomaly. That one is going to cost me. i really didn't know.



I'm glad that seeing this as a recognized phenomena helps you to see points of connection between you and your wife. I wanted to say though that Hysterical Bonding isn't like a step that everyone goes through and it isn't a magical thing that will fix what's wrong. It's a term to describe something that happens a lot. It's like when you suddenly realize that this person who you love and care about is almost gone and you did it and you don't want them to go away so you pour all your love and affection and everything out onto that person to try and hold together. And, of course when that feeling is reciprocated. It's a place where you set aside all the problems because you recognize that you want to be past them. But....more or less of it doesn't change anything. It's not a step or a level that you have to pass in order to get to a better place. You noticed that you wanted more of that. Could that possibly mean that you wanted to feel the desperation of possibly losing the person you loved, wanted your wife to feel it, too, and that you wanted that intense connection but didn't really know you wanted it? You're recognizing important things, but underneath those things is what's going to help you get through this and be who you want to be and give you a shot at salvaging your marriage, so look deeper!



seenthrume said:


> Told you I was slow and not very good at diagnosis.


I mean this as politely as possible -- Screw the diagnosis. Don't worry about diagnosing the problem. Worry about the problem. Worry about seeing the problem's parts and the ways in which the problem is a problem. You are worrying about the label that you put on the problem and that is like worrying about the packaging without worrying about what's IN the packaging. Set aside labels and terms and diagnoses. Instead, try and identify for yourself IN YOUR OWN words, what the problems are in your life. Not just the problems between you and your wife, but the problems between you and how you relate to other people, the boundaries you have between yourself and others, how you protect the things that matter to you. Figure out where the disconnections and messy spots are there and THEN worry about labels. 

I don't know if any of this makes sense to you or helps you, but I hope it does.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> This!
> 
> She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want.
> That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you.


:iagree:

Phenix, you hit the nail on the head. 

seenthrume, you're still expecting your wife to tell you what to do and guide you through it rather than taking initiative. She sees you as this guy who will begrudgingly go along with what she's expecting, even though he isn't really bringing it to the table himself. She's carrying your emotional weight in the relationship.

She wants someone who wants to walk down the same road as her, not someone who she has to cajole and convince to walk down the road with her while his attention is wandering elsewhere, not someone who she has to drag behind her to keep him on the path. She wants a partner, not a burden or a child, someone who is also all in.

Do you want the kind of life she wants? Or, are you just going along with it because you want to be around her? 

Do you modify your actions just to keep her happy? Or are you actually interested in being the way she is expecting you to be?

No one wants to feel like someone is begrudgingly going along with them in life, just tolerating them. If you went to a sports game, would you want the person at the sports game to be just kinda sitting there because they're trying to make you happy, or someone who is there because they're just as excited to be at the game as you are? In your wife's eyes, you're just sitting next to her biding your time until the game is over, going through the motions like you're expected to, even though you're actually apathetic...

She shouldn't have to be your guide or your boss or your mom or your babysitter. She shouldn't have to feel like you're only going to be trustworthy as long as she keeps an eye on you. Unfortunately, you're demonstrating that she can only trust you for as long as she can control or guide or keep an eye on you and that if she puts down the slack at all, you'll just run off and do something foolish again. You're asking her to be a mom, not a wife. The girl at the bar incident was more significant than you seem to think; it's indicative of the situation as a whole and your way of making choices and being in this relationship.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

moxy said:


> I disagree with the posts telling you to be more alpha. You're going to come across as too cavalier. That will up the repulsion factor after your cheating.
> 
> However, in trying to talk your way into getting her forgiveness, you're being too pushy. When she doesn't want to talk, drop it. You hurt her, so you have to help her heal at her rate and not at yours. Take her lead in that.
> 
> ...


All good points:

Seenthrume:

If you want to get your wife back listen to the women here, not a man.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

GetTough said:


> He needs to act a little BETA, you say. Seenthrume has acted a LOT beta so far and things are getting worse for him. Go figure. Every post of his is filled with Look what I've done/doing to make things right - why isn't she accepting my apology? She DOESN'T FEEL it for him anymore, that's why. Seenthrume, when she calls you a manipulator - that means she feels you are trying to BUY HER OFF by doing things for her. and she's RIGHT! By your actions and esp. your words you are making her feel ugh, his guy is trying to BUY me, he must therefore be LOW VALUE. You are triggering her instinctive rejection mechanism. You cannot TALK, APOLOGIZE or BUY your way out of this, no matter what any woman tells you.
> 
> Men are often conflicted but women are NATURALLY conflicted. Rationally, they want apologies. Rationally they want to be empowered. Rationally they want the attention and the groveling. Emotionally, you WILL lose them if you go overboard in giving them these things. Emotionally you lose respect. Emotionally they want YOU to have the power.
> 
> ...


Get tough:

My STBEH tried the leaving thing and acting like he didnt care. 'It didn't work.
He tried to be dismissive and aloof and now realizes how badly that back fired. Oops. 

Now he is acting remorseful but certainly not begging. He just says he doesn't want a divorce. 

As for going out to get another woman.

He is rather selective. Also, he needs and emotional physical attraction to have sex.

That is why he had an EA/PA. 

I guess you are not too selective and that's okay, but some men are.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Seenthrume,

In previous relationships you would start looking for another partner at some point. What point was that? Was it when you started to feel too connected to your gf? Was it when the relationship started to get comfortable and hence boring? Was it when you started to feel like you were losing yourself to her and the relationship? Was it when you thought you had tied her in enough that she would put up and forgive your selfish behavior of cheating? 

Or is it a relief valve from the everyday issues of a relationship?

A lot of people are hooked on the love high when they are in the beginning of a love relationship. After a while the relationship settles down and a more mature, less heady feeling of love sets in. Then they start to still the heady feeling of early love and go looking for that. Or at least go looking for the excitement of sex with a stranger or someone new.

This is something that you might want to contemplate. If you can figure out your trigger in all your relationships for going looking for someone else, you will know why you did this in your marriage.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Sara8 said:


> Get tough:
> 
> My STBEH tried the leaving thing and acting like he didnt care. 'It didn't work.
> He tried to be dismissive and aloof and now realizes how badly that back fired. Oops.
> ...


I'm not saying OP should leave or act like he doesn't care. I'm telling him he's gone too far trying to persuade/convince/cajole her to try again already. He can still be available and show he cares, he's just got to knock it off on the theme of "why aren't you buying my sales pitch for myself already?".

OP should not be dismissive or reject her. I'm telling him to not initiate relationship discussion, and when SHE does, he should focus on listening and empathy.

>>I guess you are not too selective and that's okay, but some men are.

Damn and I was starting to think you were hot and then you said this.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Elegirl and moxy. OMG I am going to print out what you wrote here and give it to my H! This is such insightful stuff. Should be stickies.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Alright, gang...

I'm going to start with Elegirl, because she is making the most sense to me here. You ask the question at what point did I veer in past relationships. That is some laser like precision questioning. In fact that entire post is so exactly what I needed to hear, I could go forward with that as a solid foundation to discovery. All of the possibilities you present, even though they don't strike me immediately as whole truths, are great jumping off points. I could see them being true to some extent. I have done some work on this kind of thing, but I never seem to get anywhere so I let it go. I'm going to lean into the idea a little harder.

Everyone else, I appreciate all of your efforts to educate, encourage, console and otherwise help a stranger. Especially one who has wronged another. I need to catch up to the thread, so please let me respond to a few things before diving back in. I don't want to get discouraged by becoming overwhelmed.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

EverRain said:


> Hi just wanted to chime in about this con idea.
> 
> The way that I feel about my WH is that I must have been conned by him before DD when I actually thought everything was going pretty well in our marriage and obviously it wasn't, but he "conned" me into believing that all was fine.....So fast forward to 3 months past DD and he is acting very remorseful, and is giving me all of his attention, I am the center of his universe again...should make me feel good and it does and it does help me heal, but in the back of my mind I catch myself wondering is this really who he is or is he just trying to "con" me, so I won't leave him, and so he can get what he wants...


My wife has this same concern. She is very good at introspection and has above average ability to voice her concerns and positions, so when this all happened, it didn't take long for her to question the veracity of my reasons for courting her. She feels that I wanted her so badly that I just said and did what I though she wanted to see and hear without actually meaning it. I did and still do mean it all, but obviously, I understand where this comes from. Irrespective of my steadfastness, she still really only sees the one instance as the truth rather than anything else I've said and done.

My therapist laid out the example that it would be like treating my family dog with undying love for 5 years, but then one day i came home and kicked her in the face as hard as I could without warning or explanation. If I come home for the next 5 years and treat her with the same love that I did before the incident, she would still probably fear me everytime I walked in the door because of that one time. That analogy I understand. I think of that when I get a little frustrated with her. I don't ever blame her for that. Believe me, I'm aware.

My life is about becoming the person I promised her I was, the person I hoped being married to her would emerge, the person who is worthy of her. I don't spend really any of my energy overtly pointing that out to her unsolicited to make me feel better about myself. I don't need to. I feel better about the choices I'm making and my work has been fruitful in ways that go beyond my own hubris.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> Ok here's the deal. She is moving on. I thought she would. She is not playing. She has checked out and is done with you. The best thing you can do is move on with dignity too. Then put her out of your mind, focus on yourself. You need to begin to show strength now, non-neediness, to have any chance of getting her back. You need to start thinking about doing the 180. LET HER INITIATE ALL FIRST CONTACT, do not reject her, but instead react with understanding and non-neediness like Cary Grant. You need to stop trying to win her back, actions like that will only drive her away further and faster. Your remorse and attempts to win her back, albeit sincere, went beyond anything she was comfortable with. Do NO MORE in any effort to change her perception of you.
> 
> The Healing Heart: The 180


Don't really follow this....let her go and let her move on in order to have a chance to get her back?


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> This!
> From you've posted, the crux of why your wife is still upset is because if she hadn't found out about your CL trolling activites, you would have gone on & actually meet someone for sex.
> She doesn't want to be your moral compass, YOU need to be your moral compass, it's a job she doesn't want.
> That's what this is about, she wants you to know yourself what is right vs. wrong regarding your relationship, she shouldn't have to tell you.
> ...


It is a big part of her problems with me, the "If I hadn't gotten caught..." bit, but it doesn't translate into her having to be my moral compass. What I did and the consequences endured have flipped a light on and got me sailing in the right direction. She does not have to be that compass. She may feel it, but it seems to be more out of mistrust than necessity. 

One confusing thing about this, though, is she has given me several opportunities to retract the statement that if I hadn't gotten caught, I'd probably still be doing it. I can't stress enough that THIS EVENT was the thing that's gotten me to open my eyes. I don't feel I need the loss of my marriage to drive this home or to reappraise my life. I get it all the way around, I just seem to be unable to what she needs me to DO. I'm talking about what SHE TELLS ME she needs, not what I think she needs. I'm not guessing here, I know, but I keep doing it wrong. I just can't seem to figure it out. 

It might, however, take the loss of my marriage for me to figure it all out.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> Don't really follow this....let her go and let her move on in order to have a chance to get her back?


A guy pursuing a woman who has firmly lost interest compounds the loss of interest. Not only is it annoying and disrespectful (even frightening) to her it is WEAK. It sends the signal that you NEED her, i.e. because you can't get any other woman, i.e. that you are not a strong successful male who could have his pick. It also sends the signal that she is in control of your emotions. She has power over you. Both of these factors are extremely unattractive to women, on an instinctive level. They want strong, non-needy men.

Attraction is built by showing you are less attainable than she wants you to be. You CANNOT talk your way into her feeling differently towards you. You can only show her STRENGTH until she begins to FEEL it.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> No. You are not taking responsibility. Instead of blaming your actions on your own poor decisions, you're blaming it on an external concept, "a fog that descended upon you and clouded your judgment". That isn't what the fog is. The fog is a term used to describe the behavior and attitude of a person who is in a cheating mind-frame which indicates delusional thinking that is based on pleasure-seeking or whatever rather than on realistic logic. It's good that you're starting to see how this is tied into your own behaviors, too.
> 
> You can say that you were in a fog, but....don't give yourself an "a-ha!" moment and think that acknowledging the bad is all that matters. You didn't find yourself doing something like a sleepwalker who wakes in a strange room; you consciously made some really bad decisions because your thinking was short-sighted. You need to fully accept the blame as yours. You need to stop excusing it. I don't even think you do realize that you're excusing it because you're not being a manipulative person here; I think you're just trying to deal with it. You did it because you were being an idiot. Now....why were you being an idiot? Really and truly think about it. Yes, you were in a fog. You were in one because something you did caused the fog to emerge and you stayed in it. If you can figure out what you did or why you did it, it might give you some personal insight and self-awareness about it. This would help you not do things like it in the future. If your wife sees your self-awareness improving, she might have more faith in you.
> 
> ...



A lot of misrepresentation here, so bear with me. About this fog business...

I never said anything about some mystical fog that I had nothing to do with just descending down on me. What you describe about behavior and attitude, a cheating mind frame and delusional thinking, that's exactly what I said. In my post, and more importantly in my life, I take full responsibility for all of it. The concept of living in that fog has never been raised to me before and when I finally read it, I found it a very useful and trenchant analogy. I don't like the idea of living an unclear existence, so the fog idea is a great mnemonic device.

My wife, indeed, does not see much growth or awareness in this regard. Me being on the road working. I think, has a lot to do with that because there is so much time for her brain to wander. Boy, does it ever wander. Much more so than she'll let on, and she lets on quite a bit. If I'm home for a month, she gets comfortable, but it gets quickly reset once I leave. the "I don't know what he's really up to for sure" thoughts. It may be the ultimate downfall of this whole thing.

This whole idea of something "broken" in me is really hard to get a hold of. Therapy had yielded some things that I was aware of, but was unaware of their impact on me. Trouble is, it's not happening fast enough for her. I have no time limits, but the further along we get, the more her limits become apparent. It's going to take however long it takes, but it may not be fast enough.

I do see that I can change my actions because I most certainly have. See, I know what the truth of "what I'm really up to" is. Just because she doesn't, does not mean it isn't happening. I notice it every day. Once I began instituting my behavioral changes and becoming happy with them, they are becoming more and more second nature to me. It's not hard. It's like people who act like children get turned into adults really quickly once they HAVE children. It took them being parents to grow up and leave behavior behind that would be destructive as a parent. There's nothing complicated about that. It's an event that changes a person and that's what this has been for me. I'm not all the way there, but I do rail against this assertion that I have not taken responsibility for my actions and have wholly immersed myself into self examination and behavioral change.

I just found the Hysterical Bonding thing very unnatural at first. Reading that it exists and what it means is refreshing and enlightening. I don't hold that any one thing will be our salvation in this, but there are so many things OUT of place, I'm happy to finally put something IN place. As I say, I wish I had known before. I would have embraced every second of intimacy with my wife instead of questioning it.

Finally, I would LOVE to let the diagnosis go never to return, but it is a simple fact that my wife is very impatient with my inability to do it. It's very important to her because she is so good at it. It is a source of untold frustration that things aren't as simple to me (and others) as they appear to her. I don't really care to do it, I only brought it up as a bit of a joke. I have total focus on the problem. It's very much the way I do most things. I never rely on conjecture or speculation or what people THINK they know about the human condition when it comes to individuals. My wife is the one that matters and even though I keep missing the point, I know it is her and I that I am dealing with. You will never hear me say "Well this person did this and that person reacted that way". I hate that s**t. I wouldn't want anyone to do it to me, so I don't do it to others.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

moxy said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Phenix, you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> ...


Again, I have never stated or ever believed that I expect my wife to tell me how to act or behave. When I say she saved me, I mean to say she was very harsh on me and got me to see myself in ways I didn't want to see. I am my own master when it comes to my actions. I know that. Nobody can lord over me and make me change. I have to want to do that and I do, so I have. Like a drug addict who has to WANT change. I know that. There is nothing at all like begrudgement going on with me as it relates to wanting to be THAT person. It's my main focus in life, but not just because she wants it. It's because it's right for me and it's what we NEED to be together and I WANT to be with her. 

The bar girl seems like a real focal point here, but it's only ever been a problem the one time. It hasn't come up since the day it happened..yes...yes, I know...one time makes all the difference, there's no excuse etc, but that's not me saying that, it's my wife. Her main problems all have to do with things that happened before we were ever married and even before we even met. I focus on those because I am listening to what SHE is telling me. Those are the things I spend my energy trying to figure out, come to terms with, explain and incorporate. I am listening to what my wife is asking me to focus on and it's not the girl in the bar. She knows better than anyone, so I'm going with her on this one.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

GetTough said:


> A guy pursuing a woman who has firmly lost interest compounds the loss of interest. Not only is it annoying and disrespectful (even frightening) to her it is WEAK. It sends the signal that you NEED her, i.e. because you can't get any other woman, i.e. that you are not a strong successful male who could have his pick. It also sends the signal that she is in control of your emotions. She has power over you. Both of these factors are extremely unattractive to women, on an instinctive level. They want strong, non-needy men.
> 
> Attraction is built by showing you are less attainable than she wants you to be. You CANNOT talk your way into her feeling differently towards you. You can only show her STRENGTH until she begins to FEEL it.


Well, not for nothing, but I DO need my wife. I didn't go through 40 years of life, building a career, wading through countless relationships and friendships only to come across a woman who I so desired, who's charms I was so unarmed against, who's laugh was so instantaneously infectious that it swims in my very blood, who's penchant for brilliance was so unmatched by the bulk of humanity, who's sense of conscientiousness was so finely honed that I would gladly forsake all other women for the opportunity to be with her forever, just to turn my back on her over the flimsy reasoning that I didn't want her to realize that I actually NEEDED her.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

seenthrume said:


> Well, not for nothing, but I DO need my wife. I didn't go through 40 years of life, building a career, wading through countless relationships and friendships only to come across a woman who I so desired, who's charms I was so unarmed against, who's laugh was so instantaneously infectious that it swims in my very blood, who's penchant for brilliance was so unmatched by the bulk of humanity, who's sense of conscientiousness was so finely honed that I would gladly forsake all other women for the opportunity to be with her forever, just to turn my back on her over the flimsy reasoning that I didn't want her to realize that I actually NEEDED her.


Guys on here have been through what you are going through. They know what works and what doesn't. You will find that my general philosophy, in particular doing the 180 is not just my opinion. It is WIDELY regarded as your best chance. If you choose to ignore the suggestions on here, that is certainly your right. But I am telling you now that you will NOT regain your wife's attraction for you by acting like a needy man.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> My therapist laid out the example that it would be like treating my family dog with undying love for 5 years, but then one day i came home and kicked her in the face as hard as I could without warning or explanation. If I come home for the next 5 years and treat her with the same love that I did before the incident, she would still probably fear me everytime I walked in the door because of that one time. That analogy I understand. I think of that when I get a little frustrated with her. I don't ever blame her for that. Believe me, I'm aware.


If even one cheating spouse reads this in your thread and the lightbulb goes on, it will not all be in vain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> It is a big part of her problems with me, the "If I hadn't gotten caught..." bit,* but it doesn't translate into her having to be my moral compass. What I did and the consequences endured have flipped a light on and got me sailing in the right direction.* She does not have to be that compass. She may feel it, but it seems to be more out of mistrust than necessity.
> 
> One confusing thing about this, though, is she has given me several opportunities to retract the statement that if I hadn't gotten caught, I'd probably still be doing it. *I can't stress enough that THIS EVENT was the thing that's gotten me to open my eyes. * I don't feel I need the loss of my marriage to drive this home or to reappraise my life. I get it all the way around, I just seem to be unable to what she needs me to DO. I'm talking about what SHE TELLS ME she needs, not what I think she needs. I'm not guessing here, I know, but I keep doing it wrong. I just can't seem to figure it out.
> 
> It might, however, take the loss of my marriage for me to figure it all out.





seenthrume said:


> *Again, I have never stated or ever believed that I expect my wife to tell me how to act or behave.* When I say she saved me, I mean to say she was very harsh on me and got me to see myself in ways I didn't want to see. I am my own master when it comes to my actions. I know that. Nobody can lord over me and make me change. I have to want to do that and I do, so I have. Like a drug addict who has to WANT change. I know that. There is nothing at all like begrudgement going on with me as it relates to wanting to be THAT person. It's my main focus in life, but not just because she wants it. It's because it's right for me and it's what we NEED to be together and I WANT to be with her.
> 
> The bar girl seems like a real focal point here, but it's only ever been a problem the one time. It hasn't come up since the day it happened..yes...yes, I know...one time makes all the difference, there's no excuse etc, but that's not me saying that, it's my wife. Her main problems all have to do with things that happened before we were ever married and even before we even met. I focus on those because I am listening to what SHE is telling me. Those are the things I spend my energy trying to figure out, come to terms with, explain and incorporate. I am listening to what my wife is asking me to focus on and it's not the girl in the bar. She knows better than anyone, so I'm going with her on this one.


I didn't mean that you asked her to be your moral compass, I meant that because she caught you trolling & now doesn't trust you, she is taking on the role of your morality by the very fact that she is going to have to check up on you in order to feel any sense of trust.
You shouldn't have stopped trolling BECAUSE she caught you, you shouldn't have done it in the first place, or at the very least, stopped by yourself, NOT because she caught you.
I'll break it down even more, you cheated, she doesn't trust you, in order for her to feel a sense of security, she will more than likely go through the motions of checking up on you, whether that's checking your emails, texts, phone, laptop, or whatever.
Betrayed Spouses (BS) will often do this to feel more in control.
The flipside to this is that by them having to do this, it creates more anxiety, because the only reason they're doing this is because they feel they can't trust their Wayward Spouse (WS).
It's a double edged sword.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Phenix70 said:


> I didn't mean that you asked her to be your moral compass, I meant that because she caught you trolling & now doesn't trust you, she is taking on the role of your morality by the very fact that she is going to have to check up on you in order to feel any sense of trust.
> You shouldn't have stopped trolling BECAUSE she caught you, you shouldn't have done it in the first place, or at the very least, stopped by yourself, NOT because she caught you.
> I'll break it down even more, you cheated, she doesn't trust you, in order for her to feel a sense of security, she will more than likely go through the motions of checking up on you, whether that's checking your emails, texts, phone, laptop, or whatever.
> Betrayed Spouses (BS) will often do this to feel more in control.
> ...


Well, yes. This has been clearly stated to me by her. She doesn't like being that person and it's my fault that she is. Never mind the double edged sword. I live with that every day. It's all about what can I actually do and is there any real hope? Those are the impossible to answer questions I have.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> Well, yes. This has been clearly stated to me by her. She doesn't like being that person and it's my fault that she is. Never mind the double edged sword. I live with that every day. It's all about what can I actually do and is there any real hope? Those are the impossible to answer questions I have.


The most important question you have to ask yourself is "will you do whatever it takes to save your marriage, no matter how long it takes?"
If you honestly can't forsee dealing with the ramifications of your actions for the next X number of years, then you're actually saving your wife if you divorce her.
The divorce would be painful, but not nearly as painful as a half-hearted R.


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

Tonight, I have received this email from my wife...slightly edited to remove names etc...


I don't really want to be here typing this email right now but for some reason, I feel that I should be.t It's fair for you to know my feelings at this point in time so that there are no surprises later should you be going along thinking one thing only to find out it's another. 

Where I'm at is basically at the end of a very very very long rope. It's been 2.5 years of information accumulation, and sitting with a lot of knowledge I've been trying to sift through. I guess you could call it heavy deliberation. I come to this point in time feeling tired, drained, and realizing I am miserable. I've been miserable every since the day I found those emails. And all you've lied about on top of those lies. The cheating, who you've slept with, and a lot of other things I suspect that I will never know the truth about.

I was able to go the last year doing all I could to move forward with marriage and living together, attempting to live in forgiveness and moving on. To find peace and zen and live within it, hoping it would all die down. But my feelings don't go away and my opinions, they haven't changed. And my feelings and opinions are not going to go away no matter what you say or do. You know exactly what to say to me and what I need and want to hear and you are beyond more than capable of delivering whatever you need to say to clean up whatever mess you make. You have spent your entire life with your heart and soul in duplicity, and of all people to pay the price for finally help you seal the gap, it makes sense that the one who finally did it was a woman you loved as much as you loved me. On the other side of the coin, I'm the one person you could ill-afford to cause this kind of pain to. I think the last couple of years of our marriage has been me in a post trauma situation. In shock, in damage control, ashamed at my poor choice because of my friends and family and son. The events that transpired after the first trauma only nailed the coffin because you never volunteered any of it, but instead you let me find it for myself with careless abandonmemt.

The LAST thing I want to do is get a divorce, split up, move out, deal with this house, uproot (my son) in the middle of high school, tell him about you, and start over again. The money and time and stress that would go into that sounds like a slice of hell that I just can barely wrap my brain around with all that is going on. But the fact is, I no longer feel that it would be *me* that caused those things to happen if they were to happen. In the past, I kept saying to myself "I dont want to do that to (my son)" etc. But now, I no longer feel that it was me that did it to him. Yes, it was a poor decision by marrying someone before I really took the time to get to know him that caused it, but I don't think with all the cards on the table the way that they were at the time, that that I can continue to solely take the blame.

It has been since I got married that I was ever able to kiss someone or make love to someone with passion and clarity and no pain, no deception. That's been a long time to me. My need for physical closeness, affection, and intimacy is supreme in my being. Probably because I didn't get it when I was younger. I've spent my entire *marriage* going through the motions with it, numb inside, and deadening myself so that I can forget the anguish I have towards the man I am letting inside of me. Making you a Spanish lover or making you someone else other than *you*. I have never had to do it to this extent and it's making me question who I've become on every level. I simply cannot go on like this and I'm at the point now where I have decided that I won't anymore, whatever the cost. I can't go on pretending you are someone else so that I can let you get close to me. I've recently had a lot of temptations come my way with men, perhaps my getting out there more and it seems men can sniff me out. I want to have an affair, I want to close the part of me off to you entirely that shares what I can of my body and give it to someone else, if only for a night. I would never cheat on you without warning, and that is why I am telling you this now. I am telling you that I am very close to having an affair. Not with anyone you or I know or anyone in my current line up of friends and acquaintances, but with a stranger, some night. I think about it every day. Thinking about a fun date where I am sexy and funny and alive. A date where *I* am the woman that you wanted to go out with in Florida to forget you were married to me. For the same reasons you wanted to sleep with them, I now want to sleep with someone else.

Someone I can look at and adore, knowing they have never hurt me and even if they did, it would never be in the vein of hurt that I experienced with you. Every day that I am alone knowing the night will come and I will still be alone, I think about this. Knowing you won't be here for another month and knowing that even when you do get back, I can't have this with you. My resistance and moral core against it is slipping more and more each day. I want to do it to rebel, to avenge myself, to revenge against you, to feel pretty and new and fresh to someone else.

So clearly the idea of separation is not something that really matters compared to the distance I am going in my thoughts. I feel so good not talking to you these last couple of days, eventhough I know that at any moment I will probably miss you terribly. But I think I inhaled all of you that I could in the last couple of years, I took you in and memorized all that I could, just so that I could mourn with what happened between us. I've been in shock, trauma, and awe over what happened. And I don't think I could overstate that enough.

This is why I bring up separation, because these are my thoughts and my thoughts tell me I can't be on this road I am mentally while being married without speaking up about it.

I want you to change your passwords to your email and facebook accounts to something I don't know. I no longer have any desire to "check up" on you or read your presonal communications. And I haven't in a long time, really. I want you to get your life and privacy back. It was all a facade anyway, as if you don't have email accounts with whole other servers you access via other devices besides your laptop and phone. And I don't even really care if you are out there trying to get laid. That's a choice you can make with your life and time if you want and I don't want to have anything to do with regulating that with or for you.

I am going to see (our MC) tomorrow. Something has got to change between us. I don't know what it is but I have to be honest when I say that I think a separation might not be the worst idea so that we are forced to deal with these issues, not fall back into old traps and habits of getting complacent with one another.

I want to know how you would feel if I had an affair with a stranger.






Very much as I suspected. This letter is a good representation of my wife's position. As I've said, she's very good at clearly expressing herself and I feel there are no doubts left. This is HER truth, no matter what I think. We'll be apart for a couple more weeks as I am on the road working and that's probably a good thing for the time being. She can really work out what she wants to do. I really don't feel I have any say at this point.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, you can imagine what it's like reading that if you are a betrayed spouse. Raw, moving, where many of our numbers have been.

You can see here that what destroys a marriage is the lying. Cheaters (not you, but in general) think it's about the sex. When the betrayed spouse believes (rightly or wrongly) that they are the ones who have to unveil the truth, or really, chase after it as it dodges around, it kills their love like nothing else. 

She sounds very, very tired. She sounds resigned to not knowing who the real you is. There is only so much the human heart can take.

I wish there was a way to convince her that an affair is not the answer. But she may have to learn that the hard way, just as you have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

seenthrume said:


> Tonight, I have received this email from my wife...slightly edited to remove names etc...
> 
> 
> I don't really want to be here typing this email right now but for some reason, I feel that I should be.t It's fair for you to know my feelings at this point in time so that there are no surprises later should you be going along thinking one thing only to find out it's another.
> ...


mmm... in the time I have been on here and that is relatively short, no posts have 'moved' me like that. I feel tearful reading through it. 

I wrote my wife a letter like that, some of it seems almost word for word. You can feel the pain in every sentence. Can you now feel the pain in that ? 

It sends me into anger reading it and I know this thread is yours not mine but f**sakes can you even get a small idea of what you have done now?

So many people I know say my wife does not deserve me. Can you honestly say you deserve yours? 

This is what _you people_ do to a clean loving innocent mind and you do it all so easily without any conscience 

I'm going now as I can just feel the rage burning me up....


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

just leave 

she deserves better


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Sounds like she is really hurting and like you are trying to be there for her, but she's not seeing it the same way as you are. I know some people have recommended books like "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages". I wonder if you have had a chance to read them yet. They might give you some insight into either how to connect or how to cope with her choice to separate and withdraw from you. I can understand that this is difficult for you, too; just because you screwed up doesn't mean you're evil. Just listen to what she is telling you because alongside her words of rejection and distancing, she is actually communicating what she is going through. You just need to be able to hear it and make sense of it. If she needs space, give her space. If she needs evidence of your devotion, give her that. It's gotta be tough to be the one trying to get back into her good graces, too. Hang in there.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

moxy said:


> Sounds like she is really hurting and like you are trying to be there for her, but she's not seeing it the same way as you are. I know some people have recommended books like "His Needs, Her Needs" and "The Five Love Languages". I wonder if you have had a chance to read them yet.


And Love Busters, all 3 books help you learn to express love the way she would prefer to receive it--but you may need some cooperation from her to get the max benefit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seenthrume (Jun 21, 2012)

I haven't been able to find any of these books, or even been able to have time to read. Work is long hours this week, but next week things calm down a bit. I want to do this, to read these things. We have had some exchanges that have been enlightening since this email, but keep resulting in more pain and difficulty. I am in despair because it seem my efforts have been lost on all of this.

For the record here, though, I am very aware that the lying is where the pain is here. That's why I stopped doing it. That's why I have done what I can to make her feel safe about it. Often, she doesn't see it, but that doesn't stop me from doing it.

I take offense to the idea that she deserves better, too. I CAN give her what she needs and wants, but because of what I did, she doesn't see that either.

Finally, in case you missed it, I didn't cheat on her. I lied to myself and consequently to her about parts of my personality and that's what lead to my actions to look for sex outside of marriage. I never gave her a chance to show me the wife she could be and I am going to lose her because I couldn't be honest with myself for a long time. The loss between us is shared, but very VERY different. I have not been able to have feelings about any of this because I'm not entitled to them, but if talk of what my life is going to be after divorce comes up, I feel I have to acknowledge my own feelings to move ahead.


I'm rambling a bit now, but it's all there nonetheless.


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