# Already Decreasing Frequency & New Baby



## Zerb (Aug 24, 2012)

There are a lot of layers to this, so I'll try to keep it succinct.

We've been married 9 years, have a 5 month old baby, and have had sex once in the last year. Family changes aside, based on the overall trend of our marriage (we started at 3-4 times a week, dropped noticeably to 2-3 times after 1.5 years, then steadily down to ~once a month about a year ago) I have no hope for improvement and I feel abandoned, emotionally damaged by the lack of connection, and even trapped. I have a high drive, sexual connection is a huge source of happiness, and I'm deprived. 

I'm going to suggest couples counselling to her, but wanted to bounce this off the forum too.

The layers:
She has always had body image issues despite being drop dead beautiful, petite, and well endowed. She has also been shy to discuss sex especially the dwindling frequency. I respect her shy / extreme sense of privacy (despite the total opposite of my family culture), by not venting but the pressure's building. Despite anonymity, she would be mortified that I've posted here.

She often defends her taboos as being a 'classy girl' but I can't help thinking of it as prudish, or un-addressed problems/hang-ups on her part. Other aspects of being classy are a growing list of unspoken conditions for sex including: never right after work (mind still racing). Never right before a meal (too hungry!) Never right after eating (stomach to sloshy). Never when company is over (they might hear). Etc. Growing list = shrinking spontaneity.

Due to a history of migraines, then pregnancy, and now nursing: I get no aid from alcohol. My only respite has been vacations. She's a completely different woman; adventurous and eager. But our last vacation with baby in tow proved that's ended.

To complicate emotional matters, we spent 5+ years trying to start our family, working through treatments and finally succeeding with IVF. The biological disadvantage was hers. Some couples never recover from this issue alone.

Rewind. Unsolicited, I bought her a toy ~6 years back. We've used it together maybe 3 times and she's admitted to using it once. 2 years ago I asked for a guy's toy and her response was "EWW!" Later relaying how it's odd that women's are more acceptable in our culture. (I would argue that women's sexuality as a whole is more acceptable in our society.)

A couple years ago I noticed that raunchy talk and playful touching once considered flirting, is now dismissed with a sarcastic "well THAT'S romantic." 

I also found an article by Dr. Oz outlining the health benefits of frequent sex (1/wk +) for men including a longer life. I shared it. She felt mortified that she could be responsible for my longevity. So... it's a chore!?

A year ago feelings of rejection were overwhelming me with once a month sex. Nothing happened unless I initiated, and it had to be a weekend where I'd wake her with caressing. Respecting rules of foreplay, I'd go slow, and half the time she'd fall deeper asleep. What a rut. I finally confronted her about feeling rejected, and the discussion didn't go anywhere. She was shut down. Realizing that I need to feel wanted too, and have held back, waiting for her initiation.

Enter the baby. "Babyproofing Your Marriage" suggests that men who help more domestically are usually rewarded. I'm very independent and due to her need for more sleep and history of migraines (and a desire to not be like my father), I carry my domestic load quite well and then some. I'm at a loss.

This week she admitted to being focused solely on motherhood and apologized for not being a more of a wife. The acknowledgement was good, but there was no promise of things to come. Overwhelmed by our history (lately I've found myself constantly and angrily muttering under my breath), I shut down and just nodded.

Thoughts?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ask her if she likes the idea of being a classy single mother.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

Her admitting something is good....that's the first step. Build on that. 








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ask her if she likes the idea of being a classy single mother.


Yep.

Also, if you read around here Zerb, you'll find a lot of husbands (and wives) state that doing more chores around the house will not get you laid. She'll appreciate it for sure in many cases, but folding towels + painting a room doesn't = sex.

Since you've already done the talk, it may be time to step things up and force the situation.

That said, she is still nursing and with a baby, and that can be quite tiring. I'd suggest waiting for the baby to get a bit older and be sleeping through the night (assuming it isn't already). In the meantime, work on yourself. Hit the gym; spend time with friends, do some things just for you. Get your life back.

After a few months or so, then it's time to sitdown and have another talk, assuming things haven't improved by then. At that point it's likely time to say 'I love you, but sex is a need for me. Not a want, a need. If you can't help me meet that need, that's ok, but I won't be staying long term.'

Don't say it as bluntly as that initially, but that should be the jist of the conversation. Clearly, sex is a need for you or you wouldn't have posted this. There's no sense lying about it, or hoping if you do two loads of laundry that you can get laid. Be honest and tell her that the sex has to improve, or this relationship will fall apart at some point.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Zerb,

Kingsfan has laid it out best.

The only change I would suggest (as he noted) is the language for the first talk. I'd probably go with something more along the lines of "Honey, you know I love you and the baby but I need you to know that I feel sex is the glue that holds a marriage together and since the baby came along, we haven't had much of a sex life. I know having an infant is a very time consuming and often thankless and tiring task but we need to address this issue and figure something out. For men like myself, sex is a need and it is how many men connect on an emotional level with their wives. If we need to hire a baby sitter or leave the kid with your parents once or twice a month, we need to do this to keep the marriage strong"

I would stay away from the vieled threats for now. Your kid is still very young and you need to give this some more time


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

This is a slippery slope and I do believe that if you're unwilling to walk that she'll sense that and use it to continue ignoring your needs. Not saying you have to walk. But you absolutely must not take it off the table. Don't say anything like 'I'll never leave no matter what, but'.


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## Zerb (Aug 24, 2012)

I feel momentarily better just having vented this, but...

I'll definitely build on her apology as you said wiigirl, using Toffer's tact and kingsfan's overall strategy. 

WorkingOnMe - agreed. The ultimatum will come after working on the above.

Thanks for all the input!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Good luck and keep us posted. I do agree, be a bit more tactful than I suggested. Toffer is a good poster and usually brings wisdom to my ramblings


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

You have a few things working to your disadvantage, and I can relate to all of them. 

Having a young infant is exhausting in itself. Do you get up with the baby at night at all? Does she work outside of the home? Does she get time to herself on a regular basis? Being a new mother is a very trying time. I'm not making excuses for her, I'm just explaining my own experiences. I would have killed for an hour by myself when my kids were young infants. 

Secondly, breastfeeding kills one's libido. It's the body's natural way of preventing another pregnancy while you're still nursing a baby. It takes effort to get past this. Add in the pressures of being a new mom, and it's not a great mix. When I was pregnant with my first child, I read a breastfeeding book that had 3 chapters dedicated to handling breastfeeding in conjunction with divorce. As I was reading that I thought the author was crazy! I'd never felt more connected to my spouse than when we brought our new baby home from the hospital. Fast forward a couple of months, and suddenly it didn't seem so stupid. I was beyond exhausted, and sex was the last thing on my mind. Hubby and I were fighting more than we ever had, and I was so close to losing it. It took effort from both of us to get back on the same page. 

Migraines... Ahhh. I'm not sure what triggers them for your wife, but for me the main trigger is lack of sleep. They were much worse when my kids were infants and not sleeping through the night. If you've never had a true migraine, it's hard to fully understand the effects. It's not JUST a headache. Even after the pain of the migraine is gone, you feel beaten and it's difficult to function. 

My suggestions:

1. Talk to her, let her know how you are feeling, but don't blame her.
2. Allow her some time to herself on a regular basis.
3. Get up with the baby at night and let her sleep.

It's very hard when you have a baby and are breastfeeding. It takes a lot of work. As much as you love your baby, they are needy little things, and when your baby is breastfed it can feel as though the life is being sucked out of you. Your body isn't your own anymore, it belongs to the baby as well... and then your hubby wants sex, and all you want is a few minutes without someone demanding something of your body.


Whoa... I might be projecting a little... Sorry about that.  Alas, now that my youngest is fully weaned, things have perked up, and I'm confident they will for you in time as well. Just be patient with your wife, explain to her what you need, romance her, and support her.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Zerb said:


> I'll definitely build on her apology as you said wiigirl, using Toffer's tact and kingsfan's overall strategy.
> 
> WorkingOnMe - agreed. The ultimatum will come after working on the above.


Very, very big mistake. Do this, and you might get sex a few times, but it likely won't last for long. These guys advising you are guys just like you. They know how you feel. They are/were are in the same boat as you. In the very least, they don't want to be in your shoes. They, like you, want sex and want their wives to know what getting sex means to them. So, they feel for you but have no idea how your wife feels. As a woman, I can tell you I would resent and categorically reject such an ultimatum. Maybe this has worked on some women, but it's a bad idea. The only women it worked on were desperate. Would you want to operate and maneuver through life under duress? I don't even know how any of this sounded like a good idea to you. While I do understand and completely agree you should not be expected to live through your marriage without sex, you cannot expect to force your wife to give it to you......especially not under the THREAT.



Zerb said:


> She often defends her taboos as being a 'classy girl' but I can't help thinking of it as prudish, or un-addressed problems/hang-ups on her part.


The first thing you have to do is change your attitude. It makes no sense to judge her because what you think doesn't matter in this respect and doesn't change anything either. Her feelings are real to her, so it would help you and your relationship to respect how she feels (just like you hope she will respect how you feel), rather than thinking you can decide, determine, and define what her feelings are. Also, stop playing games. You set her up in your mind knowing she is not going to initiate, and then make her lack of initiating another point of contention - another strike against her. She may never initiate.

And, yes, helping out on the domestic front does help....a lot. No, it won't get you sex in terms of the reward you expect. So, you won't get sex that night just because you washed the dishes. You cannot live through your marriage trying to manipulate her like that. She's smarter than that strategy assumes. However, she certainly does notice that you are not helpful and resents the entire household and baby fall on her shoulders. Finding you useless or unhelpful is a turnoff. She won't jump your bones just because you change a diaper, but she will grow more resentful the more and the longer you are inconsiderate. A resentful and neglected woman doesn't want sex and never will. Where does that leave you in your self-defeating effort to get it?

Your focus should be on trying to build a good and happy marriage, not on getting sex. A happy marriage is loving and enduring. Threats and ultimatums certainly are not. Threatening her will let her know you have no respect or consideration for her and will make her feel objectified. You both have to learn respect for each other, which means being considerate of each other, being respectful, and honoring each other's needs and feelings.

Marriage counseling is a great start. Don't allow her to refuse to go. Most people refuse initially, but she needs it as badly as you do. Just make the appointment and tell her you want her to attend with you. When she refuses, don't argue. Simply respond by saying you need it and the marriage depends on it. That is not a threat. It simply lets her know you are unhappy and want to save your marriage. This should not turn into an argument though. Don't let her engage you or pull you into her protests.

Please read my response in this thread. It applies to you too as you and he have the same complaint, like a lot of other complaints on these forums, and explains some things that I feel like a broken record repeating. Please read it, as I would say the same things to you because men and women simply do not understand each other.

There are two books I suggested in that thread. Please purchase those. You should read and follow the Love Dare, and your wife should read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands.

Also, Marriage Builders website can be extremely helpful for you both to understand some of the key concepts and the skills and tools for building a strong marriage. There are lots of articles to read, some questionnaires for you both to fill out, and there are some books you can purchase, such as His Needs, Her Needs. Devote yourself and spend a lot of time on the Marriage Builders Website. You can begin here with articles on the left side ribbon bar.

Understand that marriage takes work......on both your parts. You cannot think threats and ultimatums are the solution for anything. That is a lame strategy to get your way. Know there are better methods, and please know that your wife does not understand you and you do not understand her. You both can spend the next several months doing the work to build a strong marriage and making the effort to understand each other in hopes of spending the rest of your marriage in a much happier state of being.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

StatusQuo said:


> You have a few things working to your disadvantage, and I can relate to all of them.
> 
> Having a young infant is exhausting in itself. Do you get up with the baby at night at all? Does she work outside of the home? Does she get time to herself on a regular basis? Being a new mother is a very trying time. I'm not making excuses for her, I'm just explaining my own experiences. I would have killed for an hour by myself when my kids were young infants.
> 
> ...


I see two potential problems with this advice:

1. It assumes that he has to wait things out until the baby is weaned. With a five month old, that is potnetially seven months or more. After a drought of a year, not sure that is reasonable for him to wait. 

2. By her own admission, the wife sees her role as a mother. Supporting her in the role, without her making any effort in her role as a wife, can reinforce the message that her being a mother is more important than anything else. I have seen that happen with others, and saw it in my wife for a bit. We worked it out, but not before I developed some resentment over my role. It is a delicate balance of helping without enabling the mother goddess that consumes all acts mentality.

On a final note, it is not clear to me that the helping around the house and everything is the real issue. The original post says a steady decrease in sex, with sex once in the last year. That means little or no sex prior to the baby. That says issues well before, and that helping out with the little one is not necessarily the problem (though it could be).


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I reject River's assertion that the guys who were once in your shoes are the wrong ones to get advice from. 

Yes, River knows how your wife feels. But my advice is to not ever take hunting tips from the deer (stole that from someone else). 

If you don't take hunting advice from deer, then who do you take it from? Successful hunters of course. I was in a sexless marriage for 10 of our 20 years. I have successfully turned it around and now have my wife pursuing me. Almost daily. That has been building for the last 6 months. She now does things with me that for 20 years she would have never considered.

Now, I didn't give her an ultimatum. And while my sarcastic comment about you asking her if she liked the thought of being a classy single mom might have sounded that way, it wasn't really what I was suggesting. I'm not saying ultimatum, but I do think it's important that you never let on that you're unwilling to leave.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

River1977 said:


> Very, very big mistake. Do this, and you might get sex a few times, but it likely won't last for long. These guys advising you are guys just like you. They know how you feel. They are/were are in the same boat as you. In the very least, they don't want to be in your shoes. They, like you, want sex and want their wives to know what getting sex means to them. So, they feel for you but have no idea how your wife feels. As a woman, I can tell you I would resent and categorically reject such an ultimatum. Maybe this has worked on some women, but it's a bad idea. The only women it worked on were desperate. Would you want to operate and maneuver through life under duress? I don't even know how any of this sounded like a good idea to you. While I do understand and completely agree you should not be expected to live through your marriage without sex, you cannot expect to force your wife to give it to you......especially not under the THREAT.


As one of 'these guys' I can assure you you are completely wrong on the basis of my advise.

It is not a direct 'ultimatum' or a 'threat.' It is not simply a 'get naked or get out' stance I am advising. Rather, as the OP stated, he has had several talks on this issue with his wife, and there has been no effort to truly discuss it from her end. Rather, she has actually taken a step backward based on the OP, viewing things she/they used to do with excitement now as unromantic, or even disgusting.

I do not see much effort from her to resolve this issue. Rather, the wife seem to be of the mindframe that this isn't a big issue for her, so it's his problem to deal with. I may be wrong, as we are only getting one side of the story here, but that seems to be what I am reading from the OP.

At what point does he start to stand up for what he needs in a relationship? Sex once in a year is not even coming close to what many would deem acceptable, and his wife is well aware of that based on the fact they have discussed this before. Eventually this does come down to a 'I need sex or I'm going to have to consider my options' discussion. There's no way around it eventually.

I'm not advocating he tell his wife to simply roll over and take one for the team. Rather, I'd advocating he get her to open up about the issue so they can resolve it together, but at the same time be perfectly honest about what could happen if she doesn't start working with him for a solution. Would you rather he just keep repeating what he has already said a few times already and then eventually blindside her by saying he wants a divorce?

Be open and clear about what you need and want, but at the same time be open and clear about what you'll do if things don't change. That's what we should be doing with all things in life, why stop at sex?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

River1977 said:


> And, yes, helping out on the domestic front does help....a lot. No, it won't get you sex in terms of the reward you expect. So, you won't get sex that night just because you washed the dishes. You cannot live through your marriage trying to manipulate her like that. She's smarter than that strategy assumes. However, she certainly does notice that you are not helpful and resents the entire household and baby fall on her shoulders. Finding you useless or unhelpful is a turnoff. She won't jump your bones just because you change a diaper, but she will grow more resentful the more and the longer you are inconsiderate. A resentful and neglected woman doesn't want sex and never will. Where does that leave you in your self-defeating effort to get it?


Sorry River, but you need to read the OP post. He said the following:



> Enter the baby. "Babyproofing Your Marriage" suggests that men who help more domestically are usually rewarded. I'm very independent and due to her need for more sleep and history of migraines (and a desire to not be like my father), I carry my domestic load quite well and then some. I'm at a loss.


Not sure why the urge to attack him on something he actually does, but it lessens the benefits of the good advice on His Needs, Her Needs that you do provide.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I see two potential problems with this advice:
> 
> 1. It assumes that he has to wait things out until the baby is weaned. With a five month old, that is potnetially seven months or more. After a drought of a year, not sure that is reasonable for him to wait.
> 
> ...



1. Oh, by all means, I'm not indicating that he should have to wait until the baby is weaned. I'm merely stating that the change in hormones post baby, and while breastfeeding cause issues with drive. Those issues need to be recognized and understood, so that they can be overcome. 

2. As far as her going into the mother-mode, and neglecting wife-mode... The point I was trying to make is that when you have a baby (as a woman) it's easy to fall into this trap, and you lose your sense of self. That's why I was suggesting that he give her time to herself, to step out of the "mom" mode for a little while, to feel like a person/herself. Not to make it sound tit-for-tat, but given this little bit of freedom will put her in a better frame of mind, and would likely benefit her husband in the bedroom. 

I'm guessing here, but since the OP mentioned that they had fertility issues, and were trying to get pregnant, I would guess that that may have been directly tied to the decrease pre-baby. She was depressed in trying and failing to get pregnant without intervention. OP stated that the infertility was on her side, and therefore she was likely feeling like less of a woman because of it. 

All in all, I think communication and patience will reap huge rewards for the OP.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The baby is a red herring. He says his sex life has been on a down hill run since the beginning.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> The baby is a red herring. He says his sex life has been on a down hill run since the beginning.


True, while at the same time they were coping with infertility. Put yourself in his wife's shoes for a moment... 

She's trying to get pregnant. She finds out SHE has fertility issues. She's undergoing IVF. She FINALLY gets pregnant, and has the baby that she's been dreaming of, and was afraid she would never have. She goes into full-blown "Mommy-mode" worshipping this new life.

Having been there, I can tell you, she was feeling broken/depressed/un-womanly. Sex declined as a result. Now she has her dream child, she's hormonal, and wrapped up in being a mommy. 

Hormones will ease in time - nothing can be done about that.

They, as a couple, need to work on putting their marriage and sex life as a priority.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sq, I think you and I agree on that. I think we're just quibbling at the margins about the best way to get her to understand the seriousness of the issue. 

I know my wife and I were on the edge of losing it all and I was the only one who knew it. Op is or eventually will be at that same edge.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> True, while at the same time they were coping with infertility. Put yourself in his wife's shoes for a moment...
> 
> She's trying to get pregnant. She finds out SHE has fertility issues. She's undergoing IVF. She FINALLY gets pregnant, and has the baby that she's been dreaming of, and was afraid she would never have. She goes into full-blown "Mommy-mode" worshipping this new life.
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone's debating this. Rather, they are emphasizing the fact she needs to get a better balance going between being a mom and a wife and soon. Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone, even in full-blown baby mode, can think they shouldn't be working on their spousal relationship when they've had sex once in the past year. Even if you're not paying attention, you have to know that it's been a long while.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

StatusQuo said:


> True, while at the same time they were coping with infertility. Put yourself in his wife's shoes for a moment...
> 
> She's trying to get pregnant. She finds out SHE has fertility issues. She's undergoing IVF. She FINALLY gets pregnant, and has the baby that she's been dreaming of, and was afraid she would never have. She goes into full-blown "Mommy-mode" worshipping this new life.
> 
> ...


Which is why I question him supporting her in that role (not that you are necessarily suggesting that). Getting her out doing non-mommy things is important, but doing even more to help her with the kid could reinforce her belief that life is now about her being the mother godess.

I think that River did hit on a key point - they need marriage counseling and it is not optional. I know she is not a fan of ultimatums, but I would tend to think that the OP needs to make one here. If she is not willing to work on their marriage, that tells him what he needs to know.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I don't think anyone's debating this. Rather, they are emphasizing the fact she needs to get a better balance going between being a mom and a wife and soon. Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone, even in full-blown baby mode, can think they shouldn't be working on their spousal relationship when they've had sex once in the past year. Even if you're not paying attention, you have to know that it's been a long while.


I'm not negating this fact. I'm simply giving a woman's point of view on this. It's easy for all of you to say that she needs to step up and put out, put her husband first. I'm not disagreeing that she needs to do those things. I'm just trying to explain, from HER side, what is potentially going on. Without being compassionate towards her feelings/issues, the OP will NOT be successful.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> I don't think anyone's debating this. Rather, they are emphasizing the fact she needs to get a better balance going between being a mom and a wife and soon. Frankly, I'm not sure how anyone, even in full-blown baby mode, can think they shouldn't be working on their spousal relationship when they've had sex once in the past year. Even if you're not paying attention, you have to know that it's been a long while.


I have seen it up front in another couple that we used to socialize with. Kids were the same age. Everything, and I do mean everything, in their marriage was about her being a mother to their child. The other men (and some of the women) jokingly called her the mother goddess, because believed she came from Mount Olympus to raise her kids. Every decision, discussion, expendutiure, heck word out of their mouth, was based on what was the best for her to raise her kids. 

It was fascinating to watch in a train-wreck sense.

_Edit_ - As I reflect on this, it is part of my bias in these situations. The woman I knew had no fertility issues. Rather, she was clearly just a selfish, self-absorbed woman who wanted everything to revolve around her. So when I see or read about the behavior in others, I tend to not have a lot of sympathy.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sorry River, but you need to read the OP post. He said the following:
> 
> 
> 
> *Not sure why the urge to attack him on something he actually does*, That's River!


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> I'm not negating this fact. I'm simply giving a woman's point of view on this. It's easy for all of you to say that she needs to step up and put out, put her husband first. I'm not disagreeing that she needs to do those things. I'm just trying to explain, from HER side, what is potentially going on. Without being compassionate towards her feelings/issues, the OP will NOT be successful.


I'm not even saying she has to 'put out' (not right away). Rather, she needs to step up and help put in the work to make things go more amicably in the relationship.


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

I'm not trying to enter into any debates. I'll give this last input, and then step out of this unless my opinion is asked for. 

If I were the OP this is what I would do:

Make a date. Have someone watch the baby. OP and wife go out, have dinner/drinks. Reconnect on that basic level. Come home (without baby, even if just for a couple of hours), sit and talk. Openly and honestly, calmly, tell her how you are feeling, what you want, and what you need from her. Ask her what she needs from you, and listen when she answers. Don't let her say, "nothing". Continue to ask, give examples of things that you think you might be able to improve on if she's not willing to throw anything out there. Together make a plan. You need to regain that connection. 

It may mean that you need MC, be open to that.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

kingsfan said:


> I'm not even saying she has to 'put out' (not right away). Rather, she needs to step up and help put in the work to make things go more amicably in the relationship.


Re-read my post too (especially River). I never even said ANYTHING close to this!

I advised patience, waiting and understanding FOR A TIME before attempting to even START addressing this issue.

River likes to come on TAM and paint ALL men as the ones with the problems (in between raising some valid points/issues). I would love to know where all this male bashing comes from in her past!


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> If I were the OP this is what I would do:
> 
> Make a date. Have someone watch the baby. OP and wife go out, have dinner/drinks. Reconnect on that basic level. Come home (without baby, even if just for a couple of hours), It may mean that you need MC, be open to that.


*DANG! I said this too! *


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

Toffer said:


> *DANG! I said this too! *


Well, that's cause you're smart!


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## mina (Jun 14, 2012)

why armchair quarterback the MAP for this poster? 

did anyone give the guy a link?

MSSL
What is the Red Pill? | Married Man Sex Life


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

StatusQuo said:


> Well, that's cause you're smart!


Gee TANKS!


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## Zerb (Aug 24, 2012)

StatusQuo- thank you for your perspective! I've read that about breastfeeding but it didn't sink in until I read your response.

River- I did say that I pull my weight and then some. Yours is a valid concern, but not in my relationship. That's what the first 1/3 of "baby proofing your marriage" talks about and I almost stopped reading, it was phrased with such inapplicable misandrist donkey plop.

You're all cracking me up with the back and forth. And mina- The Red Pill looks intriguing. I certainly get the biological underpinnings the links discuss. I'm still warming up to the idea of the reemerging Alpha role.

I'll see how this next discussion goes...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Zerb,
What is the level of non sexual touch/affection between you?

Does she initiate hugs, massages, etc. Or is it always you?

I would not have a talk about more sex. I would have a talk about having a more balanced level of effort. For instance I might say:
- physical touch is my top love language, while you are nursing I need you to compensate for your lack of desire with more non sexual touch. Tonight I would like US to give each other back massages. I'm going to let you massage me first, because for the last 5 minutes that you are doing that I want you to massage me the way you want me to do it to you.

There are many benefits to this route:
1. She gets to show you the way she best likes being touched - this is a beautiful and essential part of being a good partner
2. If she strongly resists adding this as a part of your marital routine, or she gives you a totally lame, short massage and claims her fingers are tired, you will know that you are dealing with a problem that has nothing to do with sex.

This is about being taken for granted. And if youb don't address that first, firmly and effectively, your chances of a sexual repair are zero.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> StatusQuo- thank you for your perspective! I've read that about breastfeeding but it didn't sink in until I read your response.


I dont know why (medically) but I know for me I had a complete loss of libido during nursing for the first 4 or 5 months..It wasnt just exaustion thouhg..litterally having sex and especially orgasm I woudl feel completely nauseated during and after(I mean like stomach flu)..this was a PHYSICAL thing not a mental thing...as well as I was so RELIEVED since my child was a frequent feeder to for an hour and 1/2 to have ANY "space" ..a releif from the skin to skin contact..it was "touch overload" for me ..but Im one of those that doesnt really like to 'cuddle anyway not for long..so have have this baby smushed up against me "the heat" the bodily contact for 12 out of 24 hours (or even 14) I just wanted to NOT be touched..

GOOD news that improved once he started eatign some solids and I was holding him less and he would let other hold him and he could sit up too in a boucny chair..

I know with a little research that at least one of the chemicals that comes out during sex (and orgasm) is also present in steady doses when a mother is nursing..it a bonding chemical ..thats why some mothers have been know to even have orgasms while nursing..or get a "high" like a drug..Not that the mother is beign "sexual' with the child its just the chemistry of the body bonding the mother to the child can have very similar senstations as sex...so while I was basically beign flooded with endorhons form skin to skin contact and I think its "oxytocin" washing my brain so puttign the baby down was similar to being satiated sexually (at least chemically) and I was ready for the zoning out dont touch me 'after glow" part..LOL!!Not to mention I finally had my hands free for a BRIEF period of time and some "time" to NOT focus on antoher human beign to do basic things like TAKE a bath..Thats the other thing everyone needs to feel needed...but HELL when helpless little human is needing you for basic LIFE support (the LIVE or die kind) sometimes you want to be UNEEDED...

EFFORT should be made dont get me wrong..its just in that situation understanding needs to be granted..its in the grand scehem of life a very brief and important period of time in a womans role..or lets say 'abilities" as a female..Its very rewardign at the same time requires extreme sleflesness and sacrifice..to the point that many womene CAN not becasue she is simply not available for the time it takes..or quite frankly WILL not becasue the amount of "giving" and GIVING up it requires..

I hate to see a woman willing to be critisized as beign "selfish" because the FATHER wont join in the sacrifice it takes for a while to do the best for the infant..BUT to the men that gracefully accept they may have to come second for that time and support his wife and HIS child without complaint about 'his needs" I tip my hat to you...I know I gave up a lot of my needs and wants and freedoms to nurse I didnt choose to nurse for selfhish self centered personal 'needs"..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dallas,
Did you ever use a breast pump to reduce the constant touch overload you felt?

How long did you nurse for?


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Dallas,
> Did you ever use a breast pump to reduce the constant touch overload you felt?
> 
> How long did you nurse for?


Lots of women can't express (pump) easily. Lots of babies won't take a bottle easily or at all. It's not a cure all.

I had to express and bottle feed my second daughter for a few weeks due to slow weight gain and breast refusal. Using a pump is, or was for me, time-consuming, irritating and physically uncomfortable. Not to mention less beneficial for the baby anyway. It certainly didn't lead to less of the 'touched out' feeling, or free up any of my time. 

The OP said that sex has been declining since the first year they were together. I don't think it has anything much to do with breastfeeding, although that won't be helping. 

OP it sounds like you and your wife have been through a lot, with five years of infertility. I think some counselling for both of you with a sex-positive counsellor would really benefit your marriage. I think this is a hard thing to fix on your own. Your wife needs to start seeing herself as a sexual being again, and that's work she has to do herself.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

how much time do you guys spend together without the baby? I'm not talking watching TV together. Quality time just the two of you. you and your wife need to continue to date. Getting her out of mommy mode is a essential. Don't discount hormones. During IVF was she on hormones? Men don't realize that they make you feel like aliens have taken over your body.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree with the advice that your marriage cannot exist under constant threat of divorce. If she does not outright reject an offer of "do me or else" she will strive to do the minimum required for you to not follow through on your threat.

However, you can issue an ultimatum to get her to acknowledge a problem. If you suggest counseling and her response is like "Why? I'm happy with the way things are" or criticizes you (which does happen), telling her "I'm either seeing a counselor with you or an attorney by myself" is entirely appropriate.

You can also set a boundary. Rather than say "you must do XYZ", say "I cannot continue to give 100% if you will not even try." Your position is stated just as clearly. But, instead of threatening, you are confirming her autonomy AND clarifying that she (like all LDs) is in control. She can step up and continue to get your best, or she can watch you bring your effort _for her_ down to the level she has set for you.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Dallas,
> Did you ever use a breast pump to reduce the constant touch overload you felt?
> 
> How long did you nurse for?


I desperately tried to pump...Problem is trying to pump IN BETWEEN nursing is like trying to produce far more milk than what the body is making for the demand of her infant.I could get some but like what Lyris said..THAT in itself was time consuming especially with a baby that wants to nurse ever 2 or or even 3 hours (if you are lucky for a newborn) and you have to undertand each seesion takes about 30 to 40 mintues..So put the baby down after nursing for 45 mintues well the milk supply is USED so i would try to wait even 45 mintues to see what i coudl get then sit there pumping for 20 or 30 mintues maybe get an ounce or two...then about that time or shortly thereafter maybe 30 mintues the baby is ready to feed again and I think becasue of the pumping I would have LESS milk at that point than he needed causign him to want ot nurse more frequently...And the pumping was for me anyway brutal on the nipple I ended up with cracked and spiltting nipples EXTREMELY painful from trying to pump like squeazign blood out of a turnip to get enough milk that wasnt even enough for a feeding unless I pumped 3 times a day(in between demand nursing round the clock) which like I said was damaging my nipples and time consuming to boot....As well as the best pumps mind you are not nearly as effective as an infant suckling to bring the milk out..

Some women are lucky and just produce an abundance and by that I mean EXTRA... more than the baby needs ..but I spoke with a nurisng specialist and she said its NORMAL to not be able to just endlessly pump gallons of milk out if you are actively nursing I remember her saying 'you are not a cow" LOL!.IOW sure If I didnt nurse him on the breast I could have expressed enough..But why do that?I would have essentially been just "bottling my milk" all day and then still woudl have had to feed the baby from the bottle..every hour and 1/2 to MAYBE 3 hours...

Oh and I nursed for 14 months...But what Im talking about was really the first 3 to 4 months ..around 5 months they start eatign a few solids like cereal and they need to nurse less and less as you intoduce more solid foods..Towards the end I was only nursing about 2 times a day..like first thing in the morning and at bedtime in the rocking chair..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Also OP...you do need to be prepared that she may rather you "go to an attorney" than comply to your ultimatum.And regardless that its her choice ultimately to have more sex in order for you not to divorce her it is a threat and she will take it as that ..It may "jolt her into action to avoid that outcome or she may think she would rather you divorce her than have sex under "duress" and threats of divorce even though its an "ultimatum" is in fact duress..But the bottom line is you need to honestly be ready in case her choice is divorce to divorce her..

Ya know thinking about it it might even be better to just go consult an attorny and just tell her YOU have already taken that step that would rather get a divorce than live a sexless life OR have her "complying' to sex or else..Thats more likely to put her in to position to start talking about what the problem is..IOW you arent saying "have sex with me or I'll divorce you your choice" your saying I cant live like this and I dont want sex from you under threat either..she would then have to dig deep to figure out if she really wants a sex life with you completely out of free will or not..and convince you of that if thats the case..

At least thats how I feel about it I wouldnt accept my husband suddenly deciding to have sex with me after I gave him a "choice" sex or an attorny..Maybe i would get more sex but i wouldnt feel it was out of a real true desire for me sexually more like "Ill do it' rather than the alternative but knowing if it was really his true choice he would not have sex with me..But want to stay marreid to me for the other benefits...Sort of doing what he 'needs to do" for me not what he wants to do ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dallas,
Like many new mothers my W was really committed to nursing. And despite a LOT of pain she stuck with it. Our first child nursed every couple hours, so within a week my W's nipples were raw and cracked. It was a very difficult 6 months until we started the transition to solid foods. 



dallasapple said:


> I desperately tried to pump...Problem is trying to pump IN BETWEEN nursing is like trying to produce far more milk than what the body is making for the demand of her infant.I could get some but like what Lyris said..THAT in itself was time consuming especially with a baby that wants to nurse ever 2 or or even 3 hours (if you are lucky for a newborn) and you have to undertand each seesion takes about 30 to 40 mintues..So put the baby down after nursing for 45 mintues well the milk supply is USED so i would try to wait even 45 mintues to see what i coudl get then sit there pumping for 20 or 30 mintues maybe get an ounce or two...then about that time or shortly thereafter maybe 30 mintues the baby is ready to feed again and I think becasue of the pumping I would have LESS milk at that point than he needed causign him to want ot nurse more frequently...And the pumping was for me anyway brutal on the nipple I ended up with cracked and spiltting nipples EXTREMELY painful from trying to pump like squeazign blood out of a turnip to get enough milk that wasnt even enough for a feeding unless I pumped 3 times a day(in between demand nursing round the clock) which like I said was damaging my nipples and time consuming to boot....As well as the best pumps mind you are not nearly as effective as an infant suckling to bring the milk out..
> 
> Some women are lucky and just produce an abundance and by that I mean EXTRA... more than the baby needs ..but I spoke with a nurisng specialist and she said its NORMAL to not be able to just endlessly pump gallons of milk out if you are actively nursing I remember her saying 'you are not a cow" LOL!.IOW sure If I didnt nurse him on the breast I could have expressed enough..But why do that?I would have essentially been just "bottling my milk" all day and then still woudl have had to feed the baby from the bottle..every hour and 1/2 to MAYBE 3 hours...
> 
> Oh and I nursed for 14 months...But what Im talking about was really the first 3 to 4 months ..around 5 months they start eatign a few solids like cereal and they need to nurse less and less as you intoduce more solid foods..Towards the end I was only nursing about 2 times a day..like first thing in the morning and at bedtime in the rocking chair..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
I am remembering now that pumping was difficult for my W as well. 

As for the OP - yes - his sex life was steadily disappearing before the baby. The baby became the catalyst for a complete shut down. 

I think it is worth pointing out that the OP's wife seemed to enjoy a certain type of physical interaction in the beginning but responded in a highly negative way to it after marriage. 

Bait and switch? Maybe. Equally likely that when the glow of the "new" relationship faded, she needed him to switch gears. I am wondering if he ever really learned how to arouse her when she started out feeling neutral. 

Not saying for sure either way - just suggesting he start by going down a path that:
- creates a strong positive association with touch 
- allows her to demonstrate her commitment to the marriage 





Lyris said:


> Lots of women can't express (pump) easily. Lots of babies won't take a bottle easily or at all. It's not a cure all.
> 
> I had to express and bottle feed my second daughter for a few weeks due to slow weight gain and breast refusal. Using a pump is, or was for me, time-consuming, irritating and physically uncomfortable. Not to mention less beneficial for the baby anyway. It certainly didn't lead to less of the 'touched out' feeling, or free up any of my time.
> 
> ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> Dallas,
> Like many new mothers my W was really committed to nursing. And despite a LOT of pain she stuck with it. Our first child nursed every couple hours, so within a week my W's nipples were raw and cracked. It was a very difficult 6 months until we started the transition to solid foods.


Yep its a HUGE commtiment..and I almost had to give up because of the damage I did to my nipples nursing the baby every 2 hours (or 3 like I said and that was RARE for 3 hours to go by) then having the pump pulling and pulling in between..My nipples were bleeding..so the pain when the baby latched on litterally was so bad my mouth would start watering (not like the good kind..I was drooling from the excruciatign pain)..Luckily I talked again to a specialist in nursing who todl me QUIT pumping and go the the pharmasist and request PURE lanolin ..(safe for the baby and to help my nipples repair)..I sucked it up too..and within about a week I had started to heal and continued to nurse like I said till baby was 14 months old..

I did "with a warning to not rely to frequently" occassionally going ahead and using formula..just so I could be seperated from the baby for a few hours once a week..Just you cant do that very often your baby nursing is what keeps yoru body producing more and more per "sitting" as they grow ..+ baby will get "nipple confusion " and end up prefering the bottle because it takes less work to get the milk..or refuse the bottle and not eat enough ..

I woudl recommmend LIGHT supplementing (like a few 4zs bottles a WEEK) to get a break rather than pumping honest to God..And I wouldnt even do that until after at least 6 weeks of established nursing..UNLESS you are one of those lucky few..that baby is full and you have "extra" and are going to have to pump anyway....(pump and throw away)..Pump and freeze for later..

Dallas


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DA,
My W has a really high pain threshold. And I felt a lot of anxiety watching her expressions of pain while nursing. The lanolin helped but she said - the nursing often felt as painful as pushing the baby out. 

As for the La Leche league folks. I give them high marks for being committed to the cause of getting new moms to nurse. And yet they were so "religious" on the topic they added a lot of pressure at a time where my W was intensely stressed by the pain. 

My W wanted to do natural child birth if she could. And painful as it was, she gave birth without any meds. So I knew that the nursing thing was just really, really hard and I was very irritated that none of the LLL folks ever really seemed to grasp or care about that. It was solely: nursing is good, formula is bad. 

This is not an easy topic and I have not posted about it before. The body language during nursing between my W and our oldest daughter was often not good. You cannot conceal that level of pain. I honestly cannot tell if there were or were not any long lasting impacts on our child. 

I do have a vivid memory of walking into the living room of our house when our oldest was 12 months. She was content, sitting on the carpet surrounded by toys. She heard me enter, and turned her head to see who had walked in. She registered my arrival without the slightest change in expression and went back to what she was doing. 

And I remember thinking, this is how she responds to both of us. When we first walk into a room, and when she first sees us, she does not show any emotion. When we would play with her she would smile and laugh. But the initial response was neutral. And I did wonder if all those pain filled nursing sessions had caused this. 

She was our first child, so I had no basis for comparison. 




dallasapple said:


> Yep its a HUGE commtiment..and I almost had to give up because of the damage I did to my nipples nursing the baby every 2 hours (or 3 like I said and that was RARE for 3 hours to go by) then having the pump pulling and pulling in between..My nipples were bleeding..so the pain when the baby latched on litterally was so bad my mouth would start watering (not like the good kind..I was drooling from the excruciatign pain)..Luckily I talked again to a specialist in nursing who todl me QUIT pumping and go the the pharmasist and request PURE lanolin ..(safe for the baby and to help my nipples repair)..I sucked it up too..and within about a week I had started to heal and continued to nurse like I said till baby was 14 months old..
> 
> I did "with a warning to not rely to frequently" occassionally going ahead and using formula..just so I could be seperated from the baby for a few hours once a week..Just you cant do that very often your baby nursing is what keeps yoru body producing more and more per "sitting" as they grow ..+ baby will get "nipple confusion " and end up prefering the bottle because it takes less work to get the milk..or refuse the bottle and not eat enough ..
> 
> ...


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

[QUOTEMy W wanted to do natural child birth if she could. And painful as it was, she gave birth without any meds. So I knew that the nursing thing was just really, really hard and I was very irritated that none of the LLL folks ever really seemed to grasp or care about that. It was solely: nursing is good, formula is bad. 

This is not an easy topic and I have not posted about it before. The body language during nursing between my W and our oldest daughter was often not good. You cannot conceal that level of pain. I honestly cannot tell if there were or were not any long lasting impacts on our child. ][/QUOTE]

I skim readed and will fully read later but for me I had NO pain untill I tried to "pump" ..it was the nursing experts to told me to knock that out..the only time nursing ever caused me ANY pain was tryign to pump in between nursing round the clock ..I cut that out my nipples HEALED (no pain) and then when baby got TEETH...:slap: at 5 months and he would grip down on my nipple (like a passy fier) pull back adn SNAP it..

That was a new story ..and time for a little "discipline"..


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> She was our first child, so I had no basis for comparison.


If it helps I only nursed my 3rd and last..(I also had my 1st and 3rd(the one I nursed) with no pain relief for delivery ..

Im very very close (I dont nurse him LOL) to my 3rd whom I had with NO pain relievers and nursed for 14 months he is 16 years old now..

Sometimes mysterioulsy though now that I think about it ..he will ask me "are you O.K"? LOLL<>>>

I had 2 out of 3 babies without so much as a motrin..I dont favor the one I had epidural with ..


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

Based on what I read on TAM, it appears that babies and young children cause significant challenges for a couple's sex life. I have sympathy for any woman trying to balance the roles of wife and mother. Men have it easy compared to what women go through to have a child and raise him or her. 

Bring it up with your wife...at the same time, remember that she was aching for a child for a very long time. Your wife is especially attached to your baby because of the fertility difficulties. 

Your needs are important too. I just think that your wife needs more time to adjust to her new role and all the changes that come with it.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> DA,
> My W has a really high pain threshold. And I felt a lot of anxiety watching her expressions of pain while nursing. The lanolin helped but she said - the nursing often felt as painful as pushing the baby out.
> 
> As for the La Leche league folks. I give them high marks for being committed to the cause of getting new moms to nurse. And yet they were so "religious" on the topic they added a lot of pressure at a time where my W was intensely stressed by the pain.
> ...


I feel so sad reading this. I'm sorry your wife, daughter and you went through that.

There shouldn't be pain like that when breastfeeding. If there is, something is wrong somewhere with the baby's latch or mouth shape. Sometimes there's nothing to be done. But often with position change, nipple shields or treatment for tongue tie or thrush that pain can be eliminated. 

Anyway, no point looking for remedies now. Congratulations to you and your wife for getting through that.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> There shouldn't be pain like that when breastfeeding.


Agreed ...nursing if done "right" and not exceptional complications is NOT a painful endeavor..there should be no pain involved ..discomfort?Sometimes but you dont need a "high pain tolerance" to use your breast as designed..a BOTTLE!!!!

If its painful then it must be infection or impropper positioning ...pulling and tugging the nipple in an "unatural' postion for nursing..OR a bab with teeth that bites you ..


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## StatusQuo (Jun 4, 2012)

MrsKy said:


> Based on what I read on TAM, it appears that babies and young children cause significant challenges for a couple's sex life. I have sympathy for any woman trying to balance the roles of wife and mother. Men have it easy compared to what women go through to have a child and raise him or her.
> 
> Bring it up with your wife...at the same time, remember that she was aching for a child for a very long time. Your wife is especially attached to your baby because of the fertility difficulties.
> 
> Your needs are important too. I just think that your wife needs more time to adjust to her new role and all the changes that come with it.



:iagree:

OP, have you tried discussing these things with your wife again? If you need/want suggestions on how to approach it with her, feel free to ask. I have every confidence that time, patience, and understanding will improve things. Romance her, and make her feel desired without putting the pressure on for physical intimacy. It'll pay off.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
As soon as it started to hurt, W asked the doctor about it. She was pretty experienced and did something I never would have guessed. He put his finger in our daughters mouth and then told us that the level of suction was at the "high end of high". 

We saw lots of doctors/experts as the inflammation/pain got worse. 




Lyris said:


> I feel so sad reading this. I'm sorry your wife, daughter and you went through that.
> 
> There shouldn't be pain like that when breastfeeding. If there is, something is wrong somewhere with the baby's latch or mouth shape. Sometimes there's nothing to be done. But often with position change, nipple shields or treatment for tongue tie or thrush that pain can be eliminated.
> 
> Anyway, no point looking for remedies now. Congratulations to you and your wife for getting through that.


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