# Bored? Fallen out of Love? Or am I a perfectionist?



## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

My wife emphatically states the latter lol!

After 10+yrs of marriage, I find myself at a crossroads in my head. I feel our marriage is comfortable, but it doesn't fulfill where I want to be. And I am now in my 40s, and now seem to be thinking the clock is ticking.

Basically..I seem lost as to why I am having the feelings I do. I have seen two counsellors on my own who thought I should move on. However, I then started to doubt that since I was likely providing them with mainly just the bad stuff from our relationship.

I also do not have much to go on for experience. Prior to being married my longest relationship was early in my 20s and only 3 years. No living together, no day to day stress and all that fun. So I struggle as I like to compare and I have not much to go on. But there is one big thing I do recall from the prior relationship, and that was a sense of physicalness that I am missing now..and growing up in a loving home it is something my pysche is ingrained almost to have.

So fast fwd to now and the last years have started to make me think about things. I feel I have a wife that is not as positive as I wish, is too bossy, doesn't seem overtly interested in things on my side of life, doesn't laugh as much as I wish she would, hasn't supported in the past when I needed her for one big life event, isn't that interested in sex, and does not provide much physicalness due to not growing up with that type of family.

My wife and I have discussed this lots and she thinks I am just bored and a perfectionist. Bored in the fact that I spend too much time analyzing us (I do love research..prob not helping me in this dept) and that I expect perfection. She says I replace a lot of my material goods and she is now simply falling into the same category.

I have a friend that I have confided in and they seem to think I am crazy for staying, based on things that I have put up. They think that I am going to look back years from now if I stay and have some major regrets.

Therefore I come to point now wondering just what the heck is a reasonable expectation from a marriage. I feel like my caring for her has waned a lot and I don't feel I care for her like I did ten years ago. Is that normal, or have crossed into the path of falling out of love? I feel lost..I feel like if I move on I might have huge regrets about it being a mistake..the same if I stay. I burn a lot of energy..yeah a lot, analyzing what to do lately..which is not good. So I found this place and I thought I would type...:smile2:


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

"Move on." From what and to where?

Maybe you should get a better type of counsellor?

Your wife doesn't laugh as much as you'd like? And, so what?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

What the heck does "move on" mean? Divorce your wife??

Can you say "Mid Life Crisis". BTDT. See a better therapist.

A word of warning. IMO you are at risk of cheating on your wife - either a PA or an EA - the right person or circumstances present themselves. A coworker, a friend, someone that gives you their ear and listens. 

If you think it won't happen to you, you are dead wrong.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

So no one on here has fallen out of love and divorced their wife? Wow..


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

puppies said:


> So no one on here has fallen out of love and divorced their wife? Wow..


I think alot of it has to do with whether or not you can "afford" to and whether you can just put up with it and keep going. That's what I did, I just kept deceiving myself that things would get better in time. They didn't. Now I wish I would have left before kids, mortgages and college took their toll on my finances. If I left now I would be functionally below the poverty line.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

puppies said:


> Therefore I come to point now wondering just what the heck is a reasonable expectation from a marriage. I feel like my caring for her has waned a lot and I don't feel I care for her like I did ten years ago. Is that normal, or have crossed into the path of falling out of love? I feel lost..I feel like if I move on I might have huge regrets about it being a mistake..the same if I stay. I burn a lot of energy..yeah a lot, analyzing what to do lately..which is not good. So I found this place and I thought I would type...:smile2:


It's normal to lose the "new relationship" excitement. If that's all there was, I'd say "get over it".

It sounds like it's considerably more than that (little sex, "things you've put up with", etc.).

If that's the case, work on being your best self. If you "move on" you'll need to be. 

Find out what your wife's primary needs are (His Needs, Her Needs) and do your best to fulfill them.

If things aren't any better once you've done those, tell your wife what your needs are in a marriage. 

Set a timeline to leave if she doesn't make a good faith effort to meet them.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Is your wife kind of like this?

I Wasn't Treating My Husband Fairly, And It Wasn't Fair


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I think alot of it has to do with whether or not you can "afford" to and whether you can just put up with it and keep going. That's what I did, I just kept deceiving myself that things would get better in time. They didn't. Now I wish I would have left before kids, mortgages and college took their toll on my finances. If I left now I would be functionally below the poverty line.


This is exactly my issue I struggle with..although there are no kids and finances are not an issue, so my option to leave is easier.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you have any children with your wife?

How old is your wife?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Is your wife kind of like this?
> 
> I Wasn't Treating My Husband Fairly, And It Wasn't Fair


Yes definitely elements of this..very interesting read. Thank you for that.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Do you have any children with your wife? None.
> 
> How old is your wife? 44


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

puppies said:


> This is exactly my issue I struggle with..although there are no kids and finances are not an issue, so my option to leave is easier.


If that's the case I would definitely suggest that you leave now while you can. Don't be like me and wait. It doesn't get better only worse.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Bored people are often boring.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

I can't answer your question, but I will caution you to take a good hard look at yourself before making any big decisions regarding your marriage. Your lack of fulfillment may have little or nothing to do with your wife. You speak of her now as if she never lit your fire. Is that true? Why did you marry her if things were so "blah?"

Modern western culture promotes the faulty ideal that people are supposed to be happy all the time. If you're not happy, you deserve happiness no matter what it takes or whom you hurt. Happiness is out there waiting, you just have to have the guts to make whatever sacrifice is necessary.

It's a load of horse ****. Pain, longing and fear as just as much a part of life as joy, excitement and contentment. All relationships and individuals go through cycles of up and down. Again, I don't know what your wife's role in your situation is, so you will have to decide if moving on is right. Just make sure you know YOUR role. You wouldn't be the first person who nuked a good relationship and woke up 6 months later to find the emptiness and discomfort are still with them, only worse because they destroyed something good.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You like to research. Here's a bit for you... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-better-man-better-partner.html.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

I have been dating/married to the same guy also for 10+ years, and it's still great. Ups and downs are normal, but generally it's a close, loving relationship.

However, remember a relationship is 50/50. You get what you give. A good relationship doesn't just 'happen' to you, it's something you actively create, with or without your spouse sometimes! Instead of blaming her for a boring relationship, what can you do to make it interesting? We can only change ourselves. If you work hard at the relationship (to meet her needs) and she still doesn't come 'round, THEN think about finding a more willing partner. Though you might be surprised.

As for your friend saying you're crazy for staying--they're your friend. Empathizing with you is what they're for. Especially if you only tell them your side of the story.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

What, exactly, do you mean about lack of physicalness and lack of interest in sex? Are you saying she does not kiss, hug, hold hands, cuddle, that sort of thing? How often do you have sex?


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

Are you sure that it's the marriage you're bored of? Has the marriage always been how it is or has it changed over time? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> What, exactly, do you mean about lack of physicalness and lack of interest in sex? Are you saying she does not kiss, hug, hold hands, cuddle, that sort of thing? How often do you have sex?


Does not like to kiss. I usually always initiate hugs and hand holding. And sex. Which is prob once a week.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Are you sure that it's the marriage you're bored of? Has the marriage always been how it is or has it changed over time?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


No it has definitely changed.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

puppies said:


> No it has definitely changed.


I think that's normal. Marriages change over time. Are you wanting it to go back to the way it was? That's pretty unlikely to happen. Alot of folks here will immediately tell you to bail. And, if you ask what you should expect out of a marriage, you're going to get so many different kinds of responses. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Today is a very small sample for instance. I had a major life milestone. Something I would have expected to hear "hey we should celebrate!" Heck, a few of my staff said exactly that to me. But nothing from my partner. You add that type of non-engagement, with lack of physical, and nagging..and you get where I am at. Trying to find the positives. And no, I do not think it should be like it was early on.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

How well do you two communicate? Unless there is infidelity, abuse, or addiction, you should honor your vows. These seem like fixable problems. Even if you leave your wife, you will eventually settle back into the daily grind with another woman, and who's to say you won't feel that boredom again. The grass is greener where you water it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

You got puppies?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

puppies said:


> So no one on here has fallen out of love and divorced their wife? Wow..




No, we just suffer through it for 25 years. If we divorced and enjoyed life we would not be spending time in this forum.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

puppies said:


> Today is a very small sample for instance. I had a major life milestone. Something I would have expected to hear "hey we should celebrate!" Heck, a few of my staff said exactly that to me. But nothing from my partner. You add that type of non-engagement, with lack of physical, and nagging..and you get where I am at. Trying to find the positives. And no, I do not think it should be like it was early on.


Complacency from your wife. I get the same kind of stuff. How are the other areas in your life? Are you fulfilled in those areas? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Complacency from your wife. I get the same kind of stuff. How are the other areas in your life? Are you fulfilled in those areas?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


And the suggestion for that complacency? Discuss it with her? Just live with it. Seek couples therapy?


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> No, we just suffer through it for 25 years. If we divorced and enjoyed life we would not be spending time in this forum.


Many of us are working on the marriage; it just takes time. I'm waiting on a few things to happen before I bail. And, I believe it's a matter of time. 

OP, how about some counseling whether it's marriage counseling or individual? Have you tried that? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

What kind of enthusiasm do you provide?

Do you celebrate her accomplishments in the manner you want to celebrate yours?

Do you plan dates? Does she enjoy sex? Do you make sure she orgasms?

I'm trying to get at how much you give vs how much you lament not getting. If you're part of the problem you'll take that to a new relationship.

You giving with no reciprocating is different from you not making much effort. When's the last time you did something nice or exciting for your wife?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Any counsellor who would recommend divorce without hearing BOTH sides of the story is a knob jockey!

You married your wife for better or for worse, she deserves the chance to make it right.

We hear about what she's not doing for you, but what are you doing for her? What does she need from you that she's not getting? It works both ways. Marriage is 100/100.


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I think you need to sit down with your wife, and tell her how you feel.

She also might feel the marriage is soured, you will never know if you don't talk about it. A lot of marriages go south and people do fall out of love, you have a right to a happy life and if she is not giving it to you then you should move on.

Lonely marriages can be some of the worse.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

puppies said:


> So no one on here has fallen out of love and divorced their wife? Wow..


But they don't look for excuses and pretend it's all their wife's fault.

"Your honour, I need a divorce because my wife doesn't laugh as much as I would like."


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Did she grow up in a nurturing home or one that is impersonal? Whatever her issues are, first find a fulfilling life outside the marriage and spend more time with friends and family. Get new hobbies and have others be there for you for support.

Tell her simply that you want a more fulfilling relationship and you want her help in both of you being happy. Leave the ball on her side of the court at the moment.

If she persists in her behavior, let her know you want a separation after you detach and possibly divorce because this relationship is not working out and you two are wrong for each other. Which is true. You want certain needs met and she is someone that has less needs probably.

Yes, people do fall out of love. Love is something that needs feeding and it needs the correct people and environment to nurture it. People change so that environment for love and its potential change.

In the end, you live life for yourself and not stay because she is comfortable. If she has grown complacent, she needs a wake-up call. This is where clear communication should come from first. Talk to her, but in a not an accusatory way so she does not go into fight or flight mode.

Give yourself a time table but detach in the process so it makes it easier on your own end to leave.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

puppies said:


> Does not like to kiss. I usually always initiate hugs and hand holding. And sex. Which is prob once a week.


Have you asked her why she doesn't like to kiss? Is it a hygiene issue, either hers or yours? Is it that she doesn't like your technique? Is it that kissing just isn't her thing?

When you do initiate hugs and hand holding, how does she respond?

Once a week in a LTR is either average or close to average, depending on who you ask. There are definitely men on this board who would give their right pinkie toe to be getting any kind of sexual attention from their wives on a weekly basis. When you initiate, how does she respond? Does she warmly accept advances or it is duty sex? 

Without any major issues, your marriage might just need some tweaking.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> Complacency from your wife. I get the same kind of stuff. How are the other areas in your life? Are you fulfilled in those areas?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I did broach the topic later and was told that she has mentioned this on other topics..that since it was my "milestone" that I should/would have brought it up. So if I wanted to celebrate that why didn't I bring it up. I asked why she could not be the "engager" sometimes and make the suggestion. She just repeated that she asked me about the milestone but thought if I wanted to celebrate I would have mentioned it.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> How well do you two communicate? Unless there is infidelity, abuse, or addiction, you should honor your vows. These seem like fixable problems. Even if you leave your wife, you will eventually settle back into the daily grind with another woman, and who's to say you won't feel that boredom again. The grass is greener where you water it.


Pretty well. I like to talk, so that helps. Maybe it hurts us. I think my wife would agree that I likely would have similar issues elsewhere..although I am not convinced of that being a given.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

You are miss guided if you believe that your wife is solely to blame for your unhappiness. You are responsible for your own happiness.

It is also peculiar that you or your counselors discuss divorce before attempting any couples/marriage counseling. If you are a researcher, what relationship methods have you found and employed?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

anchorwatch said:


> You are miss guided if you believe that your wife is solely to blame for your unhappiness. You are responsible for your own happiness.
> 
> It is also peculiar that you or your counselors discuss divorce before attempting any couples/marriage counseling. If you are a researcher, what relationship methods have you found and employed?


I realize I am responsible. At the same time though, someone who acts against that and makes it difficult can be a drain to ones resolve.

My wife did not feel we needed counselling so we never went to couples therapy. I went on my own a few times to help with the thoughts I had.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

puppies said:


> I did broach the topic later and was told that she has mentioned this on other topics..that since it was my "milestone" that I should/would have brought it up. So if I wanted to celebrate that why didn't I bring it up. I asked why she could not be the "engager" sometimes and make the suggestion. She just repeated that she asked me about the milestone but thought if I wanted to celebrate I would have mentioned it.


So...if she _really_ loved you, she'd have just known what you wanted without having to be told? 

Yeah, how's that whole expecting her to read your mind thing working out for you? When she didn't suggest celebrating, you could have suggested it yourself. You could have asked for what you wanted or needed. But you didn't. Instead, you used that incident to feed your resentment. I think there's probably a whole lot of poor communication, and perhaps some other stuff as well, going on in your relationship. And you are a contributing member of the dynamic you seem so unhappy with.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

puppies said:


> I realize I am responsible. At the same time though, someone who acts against that and makes it difficult can be a drain to ones resolve.
> 
> My wife did not feel we needed counselling so we never went to couples therapy. I went on my own a few times to help with the thoughts I had.


Let me be blunt. That's answer is just a excuse to sit in the victim chair. Do you know what a covert contract is? 

What's her opinion about counseling now that she sees that you 'moving on' is a likely outcome?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

anchorwatch said:


> Let me be blunt. That's answer is just a excuse to sit in the victim chair. Do you know what a covert contract is?
> 
> What's her opinion about counseling now that she sees that you 'moving on' is a likely outcome?


No I do not.

She is willing to go.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Covert Contracts are formed by you alone without the other party's knowledge. They are based in the things you do for other people with the expectation of getting something in return, without them knowing it wasn't given out of selflessness. When you don't get the result you want from them you become resentful and angry. That behavior actually gets the opposite reaction of what was intended. You become unattractive and not trusted. 

It's not unusual for things to come this far before both parties consent to MC. Be it due to fear, denial or simply clueless. 

Do you think you've had a part in her not understanding how much you're hurting?

Did you browse the resources I linked or did the title put you off?


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## DRC (Sep 19, 2016)

We think that we are so smart.

All of this back and forth; differences of opinions on the matter, many of which are bias, doesn't conceal the fact that all successful relationships are based on how well the participants complement one another.

My marriage at present is a bit stressed, and it is draining both of us. Communication is ongoing. What I've noticed is that ego and personal philosophies are difficult hurdles to overcome. The hard truth is that you can not willfully change someone. I question whether it's even possible to alter our fundamental selves. 

That said, I think we are augmented by our experiences, environment, and associations to various and unique degrees. To accept this renders nearly impossible a somewhat consistent harmonious relationship with an opposing complex being. 

How much and long will you go against what feels natural and good in hopes of the other's recognition and eventual reciprocation? Can it really happen? If it does, can you go back to your natural state of thinking and behavior without the threat of the other person reverting? If not, are you living a lie, what I sometimes hear called compromise?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> How well do you two communicate? Unless there is infidelity, abuse, or addiction, you should honor your vows. These seem like fixable problems. Even if you leave your wife, you will eventually settle back into the daily grind with another woman, and who's to say you won't feel that boredom again. The grass is greener where you water it.


I agree..but I have seen people take a leap of faith, move on, and end up in a much better spot for the rest of their lives.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Does your attitude rub off on your wife?

Some times when someone is grumpy all the time it affects their spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

puppies said:


> I agree..but I have seen people take a leap of faith, move on, and end up in a much better spot for the rest of their lives.


So do it.

You don't need our permission.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP,

Do you know whether or mot your wife feels the same way about your marriage that you do ?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

puppies said:


> After 10+yrs of marriage, I find myself at a crossroads in my head. I feel our marriage is comfortable, but it doesn't fulfill where I want to be. And I am now in my 40s, and now seem to be thinking the clock is ticking.
> 
> Basically..I seem lost as to why I am having the feelings I do. I have seen two counsellors on my own who thought I should move on. However, I then started to doubt that since I was likely providing them with mainly just the bad stuff from our relationship.


We get a lot of WAWs here but not many WAHs. Your story intrigues me.

Ignore the rudeness of some posters. They would have all the sympathy in the world for you if you were a woman.

With regard to actual advice, I'd just recommend VERY straightforward communication. Tell her EXACTLY what you told us.

Give her the opportunity to make changes. You ALSO need to change your attitude. No marriage has ever survived without compromise.

I'd also tell you to realize that happiness comes from WITHIN and you seem to be disappointed that she's not making you happy.

That's not really her job. You need to figure out why YOU are so melancholy and how you can work on yourself to fix it.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

barbados said:


> OP,
> 
> Do you know whether or mot your wife feels the same way about your marriage that you do ?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> We get a lot of WAWs here but not many WAHs. Your story intrigues me.
> 
> Ignore the rudeness of some posters. They would have all the sympathy in the world for you if you were a woman.
> 
> ...


Thanks, excellent advice.

I have started a full on campaign to work on myself. I will try at all times to be the best I can..and hope that this will bring us together more, and more out of her.

And I agree, I need to work on my inner self..I feel that if I can do that, and still things are still not working for me..then I need to move on.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I divorced because we both hated each other. No sex or any physical contact for about 5 years (not even kissing). I finally left and ended our misery. You are in much better shape, especially if you can get intimate once a week. 

Do you not feel desired? She doesn't pull your pants down, push you on the couch, and get you off with her mouth? Never have had crazy sex in bathrooms, cars, or offices? Doesn't send you random text messages with pics? I never had that until I divorced.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

puppies said:


> I have started a full on campaign to work on myself. I will try at all times to be the best I can..and hope that this will bring us together more, and more out of her.


I'd be shocked if it didn't bring you closer. 

Think about it this way. If you are around a negative or depressed person all the time isn't that going to put you in a bad mood? And conversely if you are around a positive and happy person doesn't that lift your spirits?

So don't wait for her to make you happy. Instead be THAT happy person and you will see a subconscious change in your wife as well. She might not even realize why but this will build connection over time.



puppies said:


> And I agree, I need to work on my inner self..I feel that if I can do that, and still things are still not working for me..then I need to move on.


It's a mental and physical process. Hit the gym, diet if you need to, explore new interests, make new friends, reconnect with old ones, do activities with your wife AND outside of your wife.

I agree with your last statement. Put in 100% but if it's not enough then at least you know your did EVERYTHING that you could. No one can ever fault you for that.

Good luck.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Well the positive vibe did not last long..I tried my best but last night things went back to the old ways unfortunately. My wife and I were leaving for a function..I did something nice, thought she did not say thank you and made a joke. I realized my mistake, that I misheard her, and said sorry. She then mumbled some less than nice things about my tone and ways. I said I am sorry, I did not mean it that way..and asked her if she was tired. I realized as soon as I said it, it was a mistake. I basically was saying, why are you in a bad mood (well her words for that question really means to her). We carried on and talked little the rest of the night or today.

Now I find out she cannot believe that I said to her are you tired..and that those words, are you tired, hurt her more than if I had punched her. I know she despised her dad, does not get along with my dad, and I feel puts me in the same boat many times, or jumps at the chance when I misstep. So that leads her to, it seems, put me in that boat and make mountains out of nothing in my mind. I am dumbfounded how the words about her being tired, which I know were a mistake, could be more hurtful than punching her? Perhaps I have just given up on figuring out things as I really feel like I have no energy to keep walking on eggshells AND always being the positive one in the relationship..it is hard work.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Puppies,
Why did your question upset her so much?

Why didn't you directly ask her if something was bothering her?

Why are you so afraid of divorce? The reason I ask that question is simple. You aren't even willing to say what you need from your wife because you fear doing so - will be the catalyst for her leaving you.

Often, you have to be willing to lose a marriage, in order to improve it.

For instance - she is often unhappy - or neutral - why not ask her if she's unhappy with YOU?






puppies said:


> Well the positive vibe did not last long..I tried my best but last night things went back to the old ways unfortunately. My wife and I were leaving for a function..I did something nice, thought she did not say thank you and made a joke. I realized my mistake, that I misheard her, and said sorry. She then mumbled some less than nice things about my tone and ways. I said I am sorry, I did not mean it that way..and asked her if she was tired. I realized as soon as I said it, it was a mistake. I basically was saying, why are you in a bad mood (well her words for that question really means to her). We carried on and talked little the rest of the night or today.
> 
> Now I find out she cannot believe that I said to her are you tired..and that those words, are you tired, hurt her more than if I had punched her. I know she despised her dad, does not get along with my dad, and I feel puts me in the same boat many times, or jumps at the chance when I misstep. So that leads her to, it seems, put me in that boat and make mountains out of nothing in my mind. I am dumbfounded how the words about her being tired, which I know were a mistake, could be more hurtful than punching her? Perhaps I have just given up on figuring out things as I really feel like I have no energy to keep walking on eggshells AND always being the positive one in the relationship..it is hard work.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Not sure. She took me asking about being tired as are you in a bad mood..which cuts very deep for her..why I am not sure. To be worse than punching her? It just gets weirder.

I was tired. I was frustrated a bit with her mood again. I didn't check myself. My fault. I said the wrong thing, because as you say I should have just asked her if something was wrong.

Not for that reason. I do not believe she would ever leave me..I am not going to get into why, but lets just say the chances of that are slim to none. My two reasons I cannot leave..prob first, not thinking I will ever find someone else and being alone. I want someone to share life with. Makes no sense I realize, as what I have times is someone to share things with but they cause me a lot of grief. Secondly, I constantly doubt myself any time I think I should leave. I start to question my thought process, and why I am thinking of leaving. Maybe I am completely wrong about all of this? I know my wife thinks if I went to another marriage tomorrow, it would just be something else wrong with it because she believes I am always looking for perfection. But I know myself well, and I am pretty sure if I left I would realize how much better things could be outside of this. But I just cannot get over the hill to take that step. Even with her siblings having issues with her, pretty much telling me other guys would left..my parents not getting along with her super well..(always a distance, and of course since she despised her father she has found reasons to dislike my father)..so people I respect a lot prob think I am better off elsewhere..still not enough for me..don't know why.




MEM2020 said:


> Puppies,
> Why did your question upset her so much?
> 
> Why didn't you directly ask her if something was bothering her?
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PuppIes,

You have a great deal of anxiety yes?

This is a difficult issue - anxiety. 

It is greatly harming your communication with her. You tiptoe around stuff because you find conflict - with its attendant anxiety spike to be very painful. 

Do you understand why this makes you less fun to be around? 




puppies said:


> Not sure. She took me asking about being tired as are you in a bad mood..which cuts very deep for her..why I am not sure. To be worse than punching her? It just gets weirder.
> 
> I was tired. I was frustrated a bit with her mood again. I didn't check myself. My fault. I said the wrong thing, because as you say I should have just asked her if something was wrong.
> 
> Not for that reason. I do not believe she would ever leave me..I am not going to get into why, but lets just say the chances of that are slim to none. My two reasons I cannot leave..prob first, not thinking I will ever find someone else and being alone. I want someone to share life with. Makes no sense I realize, as what I have times is someone to share things with but they cause me a lot of grief. Secondly, I constantly doubt myself any time I think I should leave. I start to question my thought process, and why I am thinking of leaving. Maybe I am completely wrong about all of this? I know my wife thinks if I went to another marriage tomorrow, it would just be something else wrong with it because she believes I am always looking for perfection. But I know myself well, and I am pretty sure if I left I would realize how much better things could be outside of this. But I just cannot get over the hill to take that step. Even with her siblings having issues with her, pretty much telling me other guys would left..my parents not getting along with her super well..(always a distance, and of course since she despised her father she has found reasons to dislike my father)..so people I respect a lot prob think I am better off elsewhere..still not enough for me..don't know why.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

puppies said:


> Well the positive vibe did not last long..


It takes MUCH longer than a week.... Rome wasn't built in a day.



puppies said:


> I said I am sorry, I did not mean it that way..and asked her if she was tired. I realized as soon as I said it, it was a mistake. I basically was saying, why are you in a bad mood (well her words for that question really means to her). We carried on and talked little the rest of the night or today.


It is very bizarre she would take "I'm tired" as a punch to the face. Is she going to counseling also?

If she isn't, I would highly recommend you make that a condition of remaining in this relationship.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> PuppIes,
> 
> You have a great deal of anxiety yes?
> 
> ...


I don't think I do lol. I do avoid conflict with her because as her siblings have mentioned, and I have seen over the years, she at times can either withdraw and not talk for long periods of time..or be very hard to rationalize with. In this case, like others lately, we both saw the "episode" completely different. She thinks I was in a bad mood, and reads A LOT from my tone that I truly, honestly believe was not there. I realize also I misspoke, but I told her I was sorry I should have chosen different words. But for her to equate those words to more than punching her?? I get lost at that point in the conversation.

Not sure I understand why avoiding conflict makes me less fun?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> It takes MUCH longer than a week.... Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She started finally after a break for many years. They started talking about how her dad treated her and she had to stop. Apparently he made fun of her at times when she was playing sports badly, and reading when the other siblings were playing sports. Doesn't seem too extreme and was 30 years ago..but she found it too difficult to discuss with her therapist so she stopped. That was interesting to me to say the least.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

OP, you're walking on egg shells and and afraid to say the wrong thing. You're basing your mood around your wife's mood (and probably vice versa) and making covert contracts about being your best in hopes that it will change her. You're not leading this relationship and you are at least 50% of the problem. Been there. 

Honestly, I don't even think that coming out and making a more flagrant comment about her being in a foul mood would warrant a punch comparison. That's dramatic. 

One of the most freeing things I realized is that as long as I'm a good person and treat my wife with consideration, dignity and respect, I have literally nothing to fear by her getting angry. The world will not end. She will most likely not leave. If she did, over something so asinine, then I would be fine without her. Probably better. There's power in that realization rather than the helplessness you feel now. Seize it. 

I don't cause my wife to be angry or have a sour disposition (usually), that's her choice. And I'm going to choose happiness irregardless of her mood. I will support her to a certain point, but if she is unreasonable I will call her on it and tell her that I am no longer engaging. I've gotten more apologies and a whole lot less drama by just calling her on her **** in a calm, respectful way. I don't reinforce negativity as an acceptable outlook. 

Here you are falling all over yourself apologizing and arguing for setting her off with a question about her being tired. You're validating her disproportionate response. 

So, what are you doing to make yourself happy? Your wife cannot do this for you. To expect that is codependency. You need to fall in love with yourself before you can really evaluate the marriage. Right now you don't seem very sure of your worth and you're not strong enough to ask or show your wife what you need out of the relationship. 

When I was in kindergarten we were issued a pack of crayons. Once my crayons got dull I would break them and ask for a new pack. I wanted them perfectly sharp, like new. The teacher eventually wised up and showed me how to sharpen them. If you ditch your wife without learning how to sharpen your own crayons, then the situation will likely just happen again and again. Learn to sharpen your own crayons first. 


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

VG points. Thank you for that. 

For one of your pts..I have given my wife specific comments on what I need. Those continue to not be met or dismissed as my perfection problem.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

puppies said:


> VG points. Thank you for that.
> 
> For one of your pts..I have given my wife specific comments on what I need. Those continue to not be met or dismissed as my perfection problem.




What repercussions have there been for not meeting your needs? Are they deal breakers or would you accept compromises? If so, what compromises? You must not have been very convincing, or she feels safe that you're not going to do anything about it. Why do you accept such little respect? How have you communicated that this is not ok? Does your end look attractive/strong/respect worthy? Things to ponder. 


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

rich84 said:


> What repercussions have there been for not meeting your needs? Are they deal breakers or would you accept compromises? If so, what compromises? You must not have been very convincing, or she feels safe that you're not going to do anything about it. Why do you accept such little respect? How have you communicated that this is not ok? Does your end look attractive/strong/respect worthy? Things to ponder.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


None other than having another discussion about things. Hmm..good query...I would prob accept a noticeable/substantial improvement. Not sure what she feels. She has said a couple of times I know you are going to leave, but I dismiss those thoughts. Obviously I give off that vibe at times..when I cannot get anything from my reservoir to look interested in our future. As for respect, not sure either. I don't view it that way I guess.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Puppies,
But that isn't the real issue. The real issue is you are afraid of her leaving you. You say in words that you aren't. But you show I in actions that you are. Right now she is behaving badly and you are apologizing. 

You have already used the term perfectionist more than any other poster on TAM, and yet you offer no specifics nor do you self assess on this trait. 

And you say there is no way your wife could leave you but don't say why.




puppies said:


> VG points. Thank you for that.
> 
> For one of your pts..I have given my wife specific comments on what I need. Those continue to not be met or dismissed as my perfection problem.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

You aren't engaged in the relationship. You give off that vibe. You're not really hiding the fact that you want out. But yet you expect her to be physical, positive, initiate sex, laugh more, more supportive, etc. She expects that you will "replace" her at some point, but she prefers to stick her head in the sand until then. You mentioned she will NOT leave you for some reason. Meanwhile you're basically being critical and mulling things over - a fence riding, mushy willed, non-husband. Do I have this right?

What on earth makes you think that your wife would be those things despite the environment of dread and dissatisfaction you've created?

I don't think you can expect much from your wife until you've shifted the dynamic for a bit of time. Are you interested in rekindling things or are you already checked out?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

rich84 said:


> You aren't engaged in the relationship. You give off that vibe. You're not really hiding the fact that you want out. But yet you expect her to be physical, positive, initiate sex, laugh more, more supportive, etc. She expects that you will "replace" her at some point, but she prefers to stick her head in the sand until then. You mentioned she will NOT leave you for some reason. Meanwhile you're basically being critical and mulling things over - a fence riding, mushy willed, non-husband. Do I have this right?
> 
> What on earth makes you think that your wife would be those things despite the environment of dread and dissatisfaction you've created?
> 
> ...


Pretty much.

The issue is the dread and dissatisfaction did not start with me. It was created and caused by someone else. I have expressed my feelings, tried my best to change the situation. There are times I fall off the wagon and when that happens, I do not expect my wife to meet my expectations. But for the most part, I am positive and happy. But she drains that from me and I am not the one starting the dread, let me be clear on that. Going back to last example, I was tired but I wasn't full of dread and negativity. I was in a good mood. But my tiredness leaked through and I said to her "are you tired". I caught myself, and went back to being extra positive the remainder of the evening..even though we spoke little when we were out with others. Then I found out today that she would have rather had me punch her.

Def interested and I have been trying. At the end of the day though, small examples like last night remind me of the reasons I have begun to check out.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

puppies said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok, you didn't start it. You were just complicit. Fine. But are you willing to lead, to step up and be the bigger person so that you can turn this around? One of you has to if things are to improve. It's going to have to be you. 

You admit that you've checked out, and it appears that you're only making weak attempts at peacekeeping in order to prevent conflict. You're not making any steps to improve things or to form an exit strategy. 

If my spouse was so lackadaisically contemplating her departure without having the labial fortitude to express her concerns, I would lose much respect for her. I would probably check out myself while she sat on the fence and tepidly half-engaged in our relationship. Heck, I might even resent her, stop laughing, lose my sex drive (for her), give a **** less about her accomplishments, and feign disinterest in all physical contact. 

Personally, I would probably prefer a bad outcome over perpetual limbo. It's just too draining. Make a decision. Formulate a plan to put work into the marriage as a team or to amicably dissolve. 


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Well perhaps we need to revisit the idea of counselling. I know for ex if now I brought up the idea that her reaction was not proportional..that if I punched her vs told her she was tired are quite the different things..she would say well that is how she feels. Not sure how you keep the discussion going at that point. Therefore perhaps a 3rd party could help with that.

I think there has been a plan for awhile..well ok not a plan but we have talked many many times about what was not working for me. Nothing has ever changed much. I guess based on that I should have just left awhile ago.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

puppies said:


> Well perhaps we need to revisit the idea of counselling. I know for ex if now I brought up the idea that her reaction was not proportional..that if I punched her vs told her she was tired are quite the different things..she would say well that is how she feels. Not sure how you keep the discussion going at that point. Therefore perhaps a 3rd party could help with that.
> 
> I think there has been a plan for awhile..well ok not a plan but we have talked many many times about what was not working for me. Nothing has ever changed much. I guess based on that I should have just left awhile ago.


She didn't have a REACTION that you feel was not proportional, she has FEELINGS about what you said that you feel are not proportional. There is a huge difference. 

Maybe she is really tired of you responding to her in a negative way and that's why she says to her it FEELS like you punched her.


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## rich84 (Mar 30, 2015)

puppies said:


> Well perhaps we need to revisit the idea of counselling. I know for ex if now I brought up the idea that her reaction was not proportional..that if I punched her vs told her she was tired are quite the different things..she would say well that is how she feels. Not sure how you keep the discussion going at that point. Therefore perhaps a 3rd party could help with that.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there has been a plan for awhile..well ok not a plan but we have talked many many times about what was not working for me. Nothing has ever changed much. I guess based on that I should have just left awhile ago.




OP, I'm not sure why you think your wife will absolutely not leave. Financial security, fears and insecurities, beliefs - it doesn't matter. She's apparently not going anywhere. So far she knows that you are not happy. You've had lots of talks about various grievances - to the point where she believes you will never be satisfied. She thinks you're a perfectionist, in fact. 

However, you are apparently not going anywhere either. You've shown her that you are unhappy and yet still willing to tolerate things (however unenthusiastically). Why change? What's the incentive to please someone who communicates dissatisfaction but no consequences? 

"Wife, we need to talk. I've been contemplating divorce lately because my needs are not being met. My needs are x, y, and z. It has negatively affected my perceptions about our marriage and my love for you. I understand you think I'm a perfectionist and my expectations are high, but they are my needs. I also realize that by being disengaged in our relationship that I've likely not been meeting your needs as well. I'm sorry for that. I want to resolve these problems. In fact, I refuse to continue things as they are. Will you join me in counseling and dedicate the energy to getting our marriage back on track?"

Then have a plan. Things are better by this date. You both make a concentrated effort to meet each other's needs. If she fails to improve by that date, the papers are on the table and you walk knowing you've given it a solid go. 

As for the punch thing - there is no discussion. Every once in a while my wife will get angry and lash out verbally. Its never justifiable. So, I call her on it rather than escalating it with some stupid, angry retort. Calmly: "Wife, I may have done [insert boneheaded action], but it is not OK for you to talk to me like that. Ever." And then I walk away and do something I want to do. And she is free to continue her tantrum, but without any audience participation (which is really no fun at all for a tantrum thrower). She usually the. Comes back and apologizes for yelling, which she never did back when I used to also yell (because I yelled, after all). I've learned this from TAM in the last year and it's changed the dynamics in my relationship substantially. 


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

puppies said:


> She took me asking about being tired as are you in a bad mood..which cuts very deep for her..why I am not sure. To be worse than punching her? It just gets weirder.


I completely get where your wife is coming from with this...and you underestimate it at your peril.

My husband said something to me, earlier this year (no name calling and nothing vulgar or violent but devastating to me) and those 3 little words instantly erased all the feelings of security I'd had from the day I met him...5 years of safety and security gone in just a few seconds. I still don't have them back, and those words still haunt me.

I said to him that I almost wish he'd hit me, that that wouldn't hurt half as much as what he said.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I get the strong sense you are not being transparent with us.

There's a reason she's so freaked - comparing it to being punched. I would bet a lot it ties back to this perfectionist theme and specific stuff you have done that makes her feel very anxious. Stuff that doesn't reflect well on you that you aren't sharing.

------
You reap what you sow here. 

A guy showed up couple years back - endlessly complaining his wife wouldn't have sex with him. Six months into his thread he casually says he gained hundred plus pounds after they married.

Not calling you fat. Just saying your story doesn't read honest to me. 

And you continue to refuse to give examples of your primary flaw - perfectionism....



puppies said:


> Well perhaps we need to revisit the idea of counselling. I know for ex if now I brought up the idea that her reaction was not proportional..that if I punched her vs told her she was tired are quite the different things..she would say well that is how she feels. Not sure how you keep the discussion going at that point. Therefore perhaps a 3rd party could help with that.
> 
> I think there has been a plan for awhile..well ok not a plan but we have talked many many times about what was not working for me. Nothing has ever changed much. I guess based on that I should have just left awhile ago.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> I get the strong sense you are not being transparent with us.
> 
> There's a reason she's so freaked - comparing it to being punched. I would bet a lot it ties back to this perfectionist theme and specific stuff you have done that makes her feel very anxious. Stuff that doesn't reflect well on you that you aren't sharing.
> 
> ...


Well do not think I am hiding any "fat". ;-)

I thought I mentioned earlier..but as for the perfectionism..I dont think I am. That is my wife's take. When asking for more engagement, sex, physical contact, and general interest in my life..she states that my expectations are not realistic and that I am a perfectionist. When we have talked more about the punch comment, she states this type of disagreement is normal for couples to have. That I expect things to be perfect all the time.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

puppies said:


> She started finally after a break for many years. * They started talking about how her dad treated her and she had to stop. Apparently he made fun of her at times when she was playing sports badly, and reading when the other siblings were playing sports.* Doesn't seem too extreme and was 30 years ago..but she found it too difficult to discuss with her therapist so she stopped. That was interesting to me to say the least.


There is something important here, a clue, in the bolded.

It sounds like she was the focus of whatever insecurities her father possessed; the “scapegoat” of the family for him. I experienced that also and it can make you grow up feeling like there is something fundamentally wrong with you and therefore unworthy of love. You say that she despises her father, that many be another clue.

When you are having sex does your wife seem present and engaged or disconnected as if she is tolerating sex or "going through the motions"?

Also, I agree with MEM2020 in that I do not think we are getting the full story here. I am not saying you are dishonest rather you just may not be aware of your own behaviors.

Question: Are you the type who observes a situation, a completed project, a person or person's efforts (etc.) and your mind immediately sees the positives involved or, does your mind zero in on the imperfections?


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> There is something important here, a clue, in the bolded.
> 
> It sounds like she was the focus of whatever insecurities her father possessed; the “scapegoat” of the family for him. I experienced that also and it can make you grow up feeling like there is something fundamentally wrong with you and therefore unworthy of love. You say that she despises her father, that many be another clue.
> 
> ...


Yes she could barely have a conversation with her dad. Then when he passed, did not go to the funeral. I don't understand why she has not moved on from that or at least continued therapy. It prob will ruin her life to be honest.

I think she is engaged for sex. She enjoys it. Not tolerating.

I def could be not aware of my own issues. I try but it is tough at times.

Positives.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Rowan said:


> So...if she _really_ loved you, she'd have just known what you wanted without having to be told?
> 
> Yeah, how's that whole expecting her to read your mind thing working out for you? When she didn't suggest celebrating, you could have suggested it yourself. You could have asked for what you wanted or needed. But you didn't. Instead, you used that incident to feed your resentment. I think there's probably a whole lot of poor communication, and perhaps some other stuff as well, going on in your relationship. And you are a contributing member of the dynamic you seem so unhappy with.


This one still bothers me, and perhaps I am misguided. But there have been many times that she never asks about something important that happened to me or milestones. Whatever the example. When I brought it up to her, she insists I usually bring these things up myself so she never asks first. But for me, I am always asking my wife how she is doing, and if she has something interesting going on in her life I will be right on her to discuss and find out how it went, how she is. I am engaged. I care about her, so I want to know her thoughts/feelings about things. I rarely get that. Minimal engagement..so I take that as not caring. She doesn't have to read my f*cking mind as suggested above..but she never engages or asks me about these things..yet I am supposed to be she really cares about. That she says she does everything she can and cannot figure out why I am yet again checked out and unhappy about us..seems pretty simple to me.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It sounds like you have a negative reaction to her. Like she never does enough. Honestly, you sound very needy to me, and as if you judge her negatively (ie, she doesn't do enough) from the framework of neediness. Which may not be accurate or reasonable.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Livvie said:


> It sounds like you have a negative reaction to her. Like she never does enough. Honestly, you sound very needy to me, and as if you judge her negatively (ie, she doesn't do enough) from the framework of neediness. Which may not be accurate or reasonable.


I really have soured, you are correct. Perhaps you are also right on the neediness. I look at it as an expectation, but maybe it is based on something that is wrong to begin with.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> I don't understand why she has not moved on from that or at least continued therapy. It prob will ruin her life to be honest.


There's so little info to go on here, OP, as to whether or not you are a perfectionist, but there is an obvious level of callousness directed at your wife and/or a basic misunderstanding about how other people work. 

You tried therapy. You didn't get the answer you liked, or so you indicate. Therapy is not a guarantee fixer for anything, and getting over her bad parental relationship is no more or less a thing than you getting over your good one. They've shaped who you are. She could suggest you go to therapy to get over your needy need for hugs because you got too many as a kid, neither are really a good position. 

You've started to pick at her with things like "Are you tired?" That's the kind of question you ask a child when they are being naughty. It's kind of dismissive and condescending. And maybe she would prefer you start physically abusing her than starting mind games. 

You haven't listed any really concrete reasons why your wife is a bad wife that I can see. She isn't a mind-reader. If you were a female poster, all of the covert contract stuff where you decide ahead of time how she should react to something and punish her when she doesn't react to some invisible test the way you think she should or should have would be called a "$h!t test." It's passive-aggressiveness to the extreme. 

All it seems to really be is that you are bored with her. And feel in some way you could do better. Which if that's what it is, be honest with her and divorce her. But trying to pick at her and cause fights or try and get validation that she's broken or needs therapy or whatever is seems slightly dishonest. If you are bored and don't lover her anymore, own it. Or try and fix it.


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## puppies (Sep 20, 2016)

Starstarfish said:


> There's so little info to go on here, OP, as to whether or not you are a perfectionist, but there is an obvious level of callousness directed at your wife and/or a basic misunderstanding about how other people work.
> 
> You tried therapy. You didn't get the answer you liked, or so you indicate. Therapy is not a guarantee fixer for anything, and getting over her bad parental relationship is no more or less a thing than you getting over your good one. They've shaped who you are. She could suggest you go to therapy to get over your needy need for hugs because you got too many as a kid, neither are really a good position.
> 
> ...


Perhaps..maybe I am just bored with her. All these great comments have really had me thinking and assessing.

She also is bipolar, and this week reminded me that when she is not well, and has been for many years even though she is on medication, it takes a toll on you. I prob don't realize how much. I wonder if her lack of engagement is mainly due to the illness. I have always thought about that. So when she cannot engage, and I have to be a caregiver time and time again, it takes a lot out of you. Then selfishly at times I think well I have given so much, and don't get a lot in return. Just the basics I don't get. Makes it hard.


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