# How do I recover from a giant fail?



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

For the last couple years I have really grown a pair of balls and as I have told everyone, sex has been great. 
One of my issues was managing my anger. I am under a lot of pressure on many fronts. Usually, if I get pissed, I take a deep breath and go to my man cave till I can handle the situation properly. This past weekend things were hitting me from all angles and I simply blew up. I said things I should not have said in front of my wife and teenage kids. It only took a few words to undo everything I have been working on for years (at least this is how I feel about it)

I cannot remember the last time my wife turned me down for sex, but it happened last night. I took it well, but feel that I have lost some respect from my wife.

I have talked about what went wrong and have sincerely apologized to everyone involved. However, my wife seems to like having something to hold over my head and I'm afraid I'm going to hear about this one for YEARS to come. Women (my wife) never forget. (should not generalize to say "all women")

Can anyone offer me some advice so I can make up the ground I have lost and maybe even end up better than before?

The specific event was simply a vent session from myself toward my wife and kids. The venting was justified on my part, but because I did it in such a horrible way, I negated all my justification. In short, A GIANT FAIL on my part!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

So your angry outburst included some unjustified insults?

I take offense that you think "women never forget." The same can be said of men. Some people are grudge holders and some are not.

You say you have apologized yet your wife remains cold toward you. I would take that to mean that she still doesn't feel appeased, that your angry outburst hurt her deeply and you haven't, perhaps, fully recognized exactly how you've hurt her and how deeply you've hurt her.

I would suggest you try to get her to talk about how she felt when you did what you did. Listen intently to the emotions she is overtly expressing and those she might be hiding. You may have touched a nerve left over from childhood. Once you get her talking about how she felt when you gave in to your anger, do your best to remember every point and emotion she brings up. When she is winding down, reflect back what you heard her say.

Like this:
W: I felt like a child when you ranted on and on. I was afraid for me and the kids. I can't believe you spoke to us that way.

H: yeah I guess I did treat you and kids like children and I can definitely see that my anger would frighten you. I can't believe I lost it to that extent either. I am so sorry.

In this example she hasn't really gotten into the deeper emotions and has only admitted to the surface emotions. Once she feels heard on the surface emotions she will feel safer admitting to the deeper one.

H: I'm glad you told me how you felt when I lost it. I can imagine you must have felt a lot of other things too. (Then you remain quiet and let her gather her thoughts in order to go deeper.)

If a spouse holds a grudge it's usually one of two things. They have never felt heard, or they are manipulative. I doubt very much your wife is manipulating you.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I would give it a few more days or a week or so before I would take any further action.

She is still reeling from the negative vibes. People need some time to shake those vibes and get back to center.

Everyone's different, but I had an ex. who would get very pent up and furious with me when I did something stupid. She was very sensitive. I would try to apologize, dialog and reason with her, but I found the best salve was to just give her space and time. 

People work things out in their brain and regain perspective. Once you've sincerely apologized, maybe the best thing is to let it rest for a while. 

After a certain period of time thought (weeks?) if she hasn't reckoned and forgiven you, then it's talk time again.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink,
I should have said MY WIFE never forgets. At least that's how I perceive it. You have to understand that I have made gargantuan efforts in controlling my anger. If you compare myself to 20 years ago, in this regard, I'm a completely different person. If I got upset a couple times a week, now it's maybe once a year, if that.
The problem is when I screw up, I feel like I lose 20 years of progress in 30 seconds. That's what makes me so upset with myself.

I have talked it out with my wife for several days, but she keeps coming back to the same thing. "How can you make certain that it will never happen again?" I don't really have an answer for that question. I cannot give a guarantee. I wish I could, but I can't.
I even told her that if I lose it one more time I would be willing to talk to a counselor, but that's still not enough.

Please know that I have never touched my wife. I did however use inappropriate words and my voice is about as loud as you could imagine.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

obviously I think this is not a habitual thing with you.

If this happens once a year or less, then she will eventually come around and forgive you. she knows the real you.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

UMP said:


> I cannot give a guarantee. I wish I could, but I can't.
> I even told her that if I lose it one more time I would be willing to talk to a counselor, but that's still not enough.


This sounds as if you're just pushing it down the line.
Probably what she's percieved you doing for quite awhile now.

Why wait for the counselor?
Do it now if for no other reason than to show her this situation bothers you as much as her.
That you are doing something to fix it, that she has reason to believe it can get better.

She may be tired of words, actions speak loudest.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> I would give it a few more days or a week or so before I would take any further action.
> 
> She is still reeling from the negative vibes. People need some time to shake those vibes and get back to center.
> 
> ...


Yes, time. I know. I tend to forget and forgive very quickly. My wife is exactly the opposite. That's another reason I am so upset with myself because I KNOW it will take time, a long time.
The part I am not looking forward to is that she will bring it up seconds before sex which tends to make my penis take a nose dive.
The other part is that my anger was justifiable, but as I said in the op, because of my overreaction, I completely negated the validity of my argument. Now all that's left is every ones anger and resentment toward me.

It's like I climbed a mountain and slipped on the last step only to fall back down to the bottom. So sad.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

tacoma said:


> This sounds as if you're just pushing it down the line.
> Probably what she's percieved you doing for quite awhile now.
> 
> Why wait for the counselor?
> ...


Going from several times a week to once a year is not "action?"

I cannot give a guarantee that I will be alive tomorrow. How can I give a guarantee that I will never blow up again, no matter what I do?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Fitnessfan said:


> I can tell you that when the man that a woman loves yells at her in a voice as loud as you can imagine...it is very scary. Even if she knows you've never hit her or touched her in any way...it's very intimidating and frightening and this is by the one who is supposed to love and protect her. This is very, very hurtful and I can understand why it could take ages to overcome because it should never happen. You need to learn to fight fair...no screaming, no inappropriate words....this is your wife, your family and they deserve to be treated with respect in an argument. You are setting the example for how your children will treat their spouses as well. Would you want someone to treat your child this way when they are married? It is great that you are working on this and the incidents are far less than before but she should feel safe that she and the children will never feel threatened, intimidated, disrespected and afraid in their own home.


I COMPLETELY agree with you 1000%.
However, the damage is done. The goal now is to make up lost ground, effectively and hopefully quickly.
If my wife screams at me, as she has, not often, just a couple times in 23 years, she apologizes and I forget within minutes. It's not that it leaves my mind, I just don't hold it against her, AT ALL. In fact, I wish she screamed at me more. I actually don't mind seeing that raw side of her. I would rather her get it all out all at once.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, time. I know. I tend to forget and forgive very quickly. My wife is exactly the opposite. That's another reason I am so upset with myself because I KNOW it will take time, a long time.
> The part I am not looking forward to is that she will bring it up seconds before sex which tends to make my penis take a nose dive.
> The other part is that my anger was justifiable, but as I said in the op, because of my overreaction, I completely negated the validity of my argument. Now all that's left is every ones anger and resentment toward me.
> 
> It's like I climbed a mountain and slipped on the last step only to fall back down to the bottom. So sad.


I don't know what you said and how bad it was but I think I would take the approach of not apologizing too much for it.

Don't get me wrong apologies and then make your point about why you flipped out if what you say is true ....meaning that you were justified then they or whom ever caused you to act the way you did should also realize they behavior is poor also then all as a group can try to be understanding and forgive each other with the premise that all involved should make a valiant effort to act better in the future.

eating too much crow is counter productive.


disclaimer: I don't know how bad you over reacted! so take what I said with the appropriate amount of salt.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> I don't know what you said and how bad it was but I think I would take the approach of not apologizing too much for it.
> 
> Don't get me wrong apologies and then make your point about why you flipped out if what you say is true ....meaning that you were justified then they or whom ever caused you to act the way you did should also realize they behavior is poor also then all as a group can try to be understanding and forgive each other with the premise that all involved should make a valiant effort to act better in the future.
> 
> ...


Yes, I agree with you and have taken that approach. I apologized within an hour to each person involved, explained why I was angry, but also explained that the way I handled it was wrong. I again apologized the next day to each person. After that, I have moved on and everyone is fine except my wife.
My wife wants a guarantee that it will never happen again. She actually tells me to let her be angry. 
The problem is, weeks or even months will go by and she'll bring it up again.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP, you've built up trust by not scaring her with your anger. But it only takes one slip up to destroy that trust, and that's what you did.

Yes, you get credit for having curtailed your anger so effectively for so long, but the fact remains that your anger is still on a hair trigger and once that trigger is pushed you will let her have it. Keeping your hand over the trigger so it isn't pushed is NOT effectively dealing with your anger. She knows this. She knows you are employing tricks to keep your anger at bay but once you become angry, all bets are off.

You need counseling now, not next time. You need skills to reduce the size and sensitivity of your trigger. You need to learn better skills to deal with anger, and she needs to see you learning this.

This isn't about her holding a grudge. This is about her not trusting you because you've shown her over the years that you will eventually let her have it!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Here is what you say UMP....


"Wife, I am disgusted with myself for having lost it and let my anger frighten you and the kids. I understand I can't allow this to happen ever again. I have contacted a few therapists who special in anger managment and hope to begin soon. I know you have a hard time trusting me due to the many times I've broken my promise. This time I'm trying something new and I'm going to learn to effectively deal with my anger rather than just suppress it."


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

How bad is bad? Did you call your wife a b!tch? Did you call her a wh0re? Did you use the word cvnt? What did you say to the kids that was so bad - wish they were never born?

What about your outburst was the worst part - the volume you said these things or the things you said? Would things have been different if you said the exact same words you did but in a calm voice? Or would they have been more accepting if you would have been ranting and raving but saying things like "Dagbummit, doggone, and gee whiz"?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> How bad is bad? Did you call your wife a b!tch? Did you call her a wh0re? Did you use the word cvnt? What did you say to the kids that was so bad - wish they were never born?
> 
> What about your outburst was the worst part - the volume you said these things or the things you said? Would things have been different if you said the exact same words you did but in a calm voice? Or would they have been more accepting if you would have been ranting and raving but saying things like "Dagbummit, doggone, and gee whiz"?


No, I did not say those things to my wife or kids, never have. I cussed a lot and unfortunately I have a VERY loud DEEP voice, which gets louder when I'm angry. I guess I look a bit possessed when I get angry.

For example, if I am fixing something and smash my finger with a hammer, I scream F$$$$$CK! This upsets my wife. My favorite go to in this situation is "sonofamother"


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Here is what you say UMP....
> 
> 
> "Wife, I am disgusted with myself for having lost it and let my anger frighten you and the kids. I understand I can't allow this to happen ever again. I have contacted a few therapists who special in anger managment and hope to begin soon. I know you have a hard time trusting me due to the many times I've broken my promise. This time I'm trying something new and I'm going to learn to effectively deal with my anger rather than just suppress it."


Here is the question. What does "effectively dealing with anger" mean? 
Does it mean you will NEVER get angry again? Gauranteed ?
If someone went from twice a week to once a year is he a success or a failure?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

UMP said:


> Here is the question. What does "effectively dealing with anger" mean?
> Does it mean you will NEVER get angry again? Gauranteed ?
> If someone went from twice a week to once a year is he a success or a failure?


I don't think anger management is ever supposed to be about suppressing your emotions (of which anger is an important one). It's about not letting that anger control you and causing you to harm those you love or attack other targets that you would not if you were in control. What about you changed in the past that took you from regular outbursts to only once a year? Maturity, or was it some other planned anger management? Sounds like retreating to your mancave to process your anger has worked, so it's a matter of taking it to the next level where you never lose control, or more importantly attack people that you love and want to protect, when you are triggered. It's not about managing anger, it's about managing you reaction (not over-reacting).


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I would say this:
Wife, I made a mistake. For that I am sorry. IF it means we can never have sex again, then I think we should get a divorce.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> I don't think anger management is ever supposed to be about suppressing your emotions (of which anger is an important one). It's about not letting that anger control you and causing you to harm those you love or attack other targets that you would not if you were in control. What about you changed in the past that took you from regular outbursts to only once a year? Maturity, or was it some other planned anger management? Sounds like retreating to your mancave to process your anger has worked, so it's a matter of taking it to the next level where you never lose control, or more importantly attack people that you love and want to protect, when you are triggered. It's not about managing anger, it's about managing you reaction (not over-reacting).


Yes, I agree. I have been successful, as you say "not letting my anger control me." However, this weekend the perfect storm brewed and things hit me from all angles all at once and I just snapped.
Instead of calmly saying "why did you let this happen?" and what can we do to prevent this in the future, I said "What the f$ck happened?" etc., loudly.

It's a long story. Basically everyone wanted me to leave with my mentally handicapped daughter to a movie so that they could have a bunch of people over at the house. They did not want my daughter bothering everyone. I get back home and there was significant damage to the house that could have easily been prevented. I walk into the house with pieces of the house in my hand and my wife is upset because I did not answer my phone in the 5 minutes that it took me to come home. My phone was on vibrate in my car door. I was just pissed. I sometimes feel that I am just a pay check fixing everything day in and day out and no body cares about it because they know I'll take care of it.
There is more to it than that, but those are the basics.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

To me the part missing is her involvement in how to move forward. So she says how do I know you won't become angry like that again. Then you ask what do you think I should do? If she says go to counseling then go. But then you are taking a step in the direction you BOTH recognize as helpful.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

One of my best friends had a problem with anger outbursts, like you, he would never strike his wife, but he would look possessed. I was just arriving at one his episodes and saw him throw his cell phone against the wall, his wife was shaking. She had never confessed to him how serious this problem really was.
Several years later, they nearly got divorced because she had a "shopaholic" problem that escalated out of control and was scared to death to tell him, until he got a call at work from a creditor.
He never realized that his wife was so scared of his temper and he felt horrible and fixed the problem. He learned some meditations & some breathing techniques etc., we were both heavily involved in the martial arts, so he was assisted by our instructor as well.
I think it is huge to go from weeks to years, but to your wife, the problem is still there and you are a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off. She thinks it's finally done and BOOM, right back it is. Anger is the scariest emotion. My dad, growing up, struck fear in me and it still left scars.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

UMP said:


> Going from several times a week to once a year is not "action?"
> 
> I cannot give a guarantee that I will be alive tomorrow. How can I give a guarantee that I will never blow up again, no matter what I do?


You haven't given a detailed rundown of your overall situation so I may be off base but that once a year may very well be triggering her past experience with you, making her insecure.

No one can guarantee anything really but actively investing in making the changes she wants to see rather than talking about doing it later is bound to make her feel better about the situation.

See the counsellor, now not later.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> One of my best friends had a problem with anger outbursts, like you, he would never strike his wife, but he would look possessed. I was just arriving at one his episodes and saw him throw his cell phone against the wall, his wife was shaking. She had never confessed to him how serious this problem really was.
> Several years later, they nearly got divorced because she had a "shopaholic" problem that escalated out of control and was scared to death to tell him, until he got a call at work from a creditor.
> He never realized that his wife was so scared of his temper and he felt horrible and fixed the problem. He learned some meditations & some breathing techniques etc., we were both heavily involved in the martial arts, so he was assisted by our instructor as well.
> I think it is huge to go from weeks to years, but to your wife, the problem is still there and you are a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off. She thinks it's finally done and BOOM, right back it is. Anger is the scariest emotion. My dad, growing up, struck fear in me and it still left scars.


Do you ever have problems with anger because of your father?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

So what did you say her? Is it just cursing in general or did you target her with something? I ask because words hurt, and if you ask for sex after you say something sh!tty to your wife you look like a jerk. General cussing is another issue. So which was it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

UMP said:


> Yes, I agree. I have been successful, as you say "not letting my anger control me." However, this weekend the perfect storm brewed and things hit me from all angles all at once and I just snapped.
> Instead of calmly saying "why did you let this happen?" and what can we do to prevent this in the future, I said "What the f$ck happened?" etc., loudly.
> 
> It's a long story. Basically everyone wanted me to leave with my mentally handicapped daughter to a movie so that they could have a bunch of people over at the house. They did not want my daughter bothering everyone. I get back home and there was significant damage to the house that could have easily been prevented. I walk into the house with pieces of the house in my hand and my wife is upset because I did not answer my phone in the 5 minutes that it took me to come home. My phone was on vibrate in my car door. I was just pissed. I sometimes feel that I am just a pay check fixing everything day in and day out and no body cares about it because they know I'll take care of it.
> There is more to it than that, but those are the basics.


I don't know if her fear and bad reaction to your outburst is reasonable or not, I didn't witness it, but if you were to express your anger and displeasure about the damage and about being expected to answer your phone when you are physically unable to ia a calm, but equally urgent way, how would it be taken by her? would you get the brush off? Is yelling the only way you can command her respect?

Seems like communication is a big problem, and as though you feel you don't get the respect you deserve? How do you show her your respect? You clearly have resentment in situations like this one, do you believe she has resentment towards you? Is she supportive and trusting of you, or does she belittle you over your decisions often?

Is your disabled daughter both of yours biologically, or is your W a step-parent? when you said "everyone" wanted you to take your daughter out of the home, who do you mean, the other children? Your w's friends? Was it a special event or did "everyone" just need some down time due to dealing with the difficulties of a special needs person in the house?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Also, yelling and cursing tends to move the argument away from what otherwise might be legitimate grievances to the fact that you're yelling and cursing. Sometimes women look to their men to step up and handle things and when you start with the yelling and cursing you're no longer a protector, you're scary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> To me the part missing is her involvement in how to move forward. So she says how do I know you won't become angry like that again. Then you ask what do you think I should do? If she says go to counseling then go. But then you are taking a step in the direction you BOTH recognize as helpful.


I agree.
Does anyone have a book they might recommend?

My main problem is volume and state of mind. I would never degrade my wife or kids by calling them names. I just get loud and mad.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Also, yelling and cursing tends to move the argument away from what otherwise might be legitimate grievances to the fact that you're yelling and cursing. Sometimes women look to their men to step up and handle things and when you start with the yelling and cursing you're no longer a protector, you're scary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


EXACLTY !!
That's what pisses me off about it even more. I had a legitimate grievance and I screwed myself. Idiot !!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

UMP said:


> Here is the question. What does "effectively dealing with anger" mean?
> Does it mean you will NEVER get angry again? Gauranteed ?
> If someone went from twice a week to once a year is he a success or a failure?


People have different coping mechanisms. I had serious anger issues when I was a young adult. I had outbursts that honestly even scared me. Couldn't controll it. Had no idea why I was even so angry to begin with. Most of it came from the incredible amount of responsibility I was tasked with as a 19 year old man who was type A and suffered from the inability to say no to people. 

Like most naive young men I turned to drinking which helped for alittle while then became its own problem. Finally after loosing some people close to me and frightening the woman in my life and myself in the process I admitted I need help. 

I went to counseling and it did nothing for me...at all. However I was heavily into marital arts and went to an old school instructor who taught me eastern meditation. He started with telling me this one, most profound statement I had ever heard. He said "you are trying so desperately to control everthing in the universe out here, but you have yet to control the universe in here (pointing to me)". " He said if you can learn to master this then you will have learned to master everything out here". 

And I have been using that ever since. Now in my circle of friends I am known as the guy who never gets upset. And I don't. Caught my wife cheating and even that didn't make me loose my temper. It's work. Believe me its work. When I feel stressed and pressure I meditate more and when things are going well much less. I admit to only one trigger and that would be if someone hurt my kids....then you're on your own.

Anyway counseling may help. For me mediation was a way to go. I have to be an active participant in the controlling of it so it is the best way for me. Something to consider


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP, I am your wife. Almost twenty years together. Came to TAM last fall looking for help, because things were horrible. I told him I want divorce back in December. Finally that shook him. We are working on it now, he is really trying, but as it happens just an hour ago he let it go again, yelled at him over the phone. He had his point, but he had no right to yell like this. Now, I am sitting here, after two months of my hopes raised, trying to work, my stomach in knots, trying not to cry. Trying to remember we have to work on it, and it is a long way. 

This is not about holding grudge. After twenty years this is practically PTSD, everything coming back, your hopes for better future seem silly. You are like kicked puppy again. This is not just in my head, this is real physical reaction - tight stomach, headache, lost energy. 

You have to allow her to be upset. She cannot change it. She needs time, and she should not feel guilty about it.

Have you read "Love busters" - the first three of the love busters described, are probably your marriage, at least until two years ago. REad it, you will find out how your wife feels when you do what you do.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Anger managment involves getting to the deeper emotion. Anger is on the surface, it masks what lies beneath. Usually hurt and fear. Once you tap into what your anger is masking, you can better identify the ROOT emotion and then act accordingly which will all by itself prevent the impulse to outburst.

Child runs into the street and nearly misses getting hit by a car. You saw this from the upstairs window and went running outside with your heart in your throat! 

Child sees and feels your anger. And boy the whole neighborhood can see and feel your anger.

But the root emotion is intense fear. OMG you almost lost your child! FEAR is the root emotion but anger masks it because how dare your child do something so damn stupid!

Second scenario: you've told the kids over and over and over to close the gate so the dog doesn't get out. Once again you are combing the neighborhood looking for your dog because they've left the gate open. Damn right you're mad!

But the root emotion is hurt. You are hurt because they care very little for something you care a great deal! You feel unimportant, unappreciated and even unloved because they consistently forget to take the steps to safeguard your dog.

Hurt is the root emotion and from hurt you jump to anger.

That is what anger management is about. Teaching you to discover the root emotion so that the anger doesn't happen.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> So what did you say her? Is it just cursing in general or did you target her with something? I ask because words hurt, and if you ask for sex after you say something sh!tty to your wife you look like a jerk. General cussing is another issue. So which was it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


General cussing and screaming. Just being a complete baby asssshole about the situation. I asked for sex 3 days afterward. She responded with "are you kidding"


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

For what it's worth UMP I applaud you for seeking help and wanting this to be better. It's not easy for ANYONE to admit they have fault and need to work on it. Really that's is the first step that you recognize you need to do better and work on things. I hope no matter what you can find peace and in turn your family can as well


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Anger managment involves getting to the deeper emotion. Anger is on the surface, it masks what lies beneath. Usually hurt and fear. Once you tap into what your anger is masking, you can better identify the ROOT emotion and then act accordingly which will all by itself prevent the impulse to outburst.
> 
> Child runs into the street and nearly misses getting hit by a car. You saw this from the upstairs window and went running outside with your heart in your throat!
> 
> ...


YES, that's me!!
Do you have a book you could recommend??


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> For what it's worth UMP I applaud you for seeking help and wanting this to be better. It's not easy for ANYONE to admit they have fault and need to work on it. Really that's is the first step that you recognize you need to do better and work on things. I hope no matter what you can find peace and in turn your family can as well


Me too!

Well done UMP!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> YES, that's me!!
> Do you have a book you could recommend??


No. No short cuts for this. You have to go to therapy so you can talk it out and discover in your life how these things came to be, how to recognize and how to respond differently. A book won't do it.

Sorry bud.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> People have different coping mechanisms. I had serious anger issues when I was a young adult. I had outbursts that honestly even scared me. Couldn't controll it. Had no idea why I was even so angry to begin with. Most of it came from the incredible amount of responsibility I was tasked with as a 19 year old man who was type A and suffered from the inability to say no to people.
> 
> Like most naive young men I turned to drinking which helped for alittle while then became its own problem. Finally after loosing some people close to me and frightening the woman in my life and myself in the process I admitted I need help.
> 
> ...


The thing that has helped me is something my pastor said. I have it written down in my wallet.
"Listen to ourselves less, speak to ourselves more."

The part that REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bothers me is that I feel like I am not in control of myself. I would give my left nut for a guarantee, providing I could still cum hard, that is


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> No. No short cuts for this. You have to go to therapy so you can talk it out and discover in your life how these things came to be, how to recognize and how to respond differently. A book won't do it.
> 
> Sorry bud.


Should I look for a phycologist or therapist. If I do this, I want it to be one on one. What should I look for in the "phone book?"
Does insurance cover this?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

UMP said:


> I agree.
> Does anyone have a book they might recommend?
> 
> My main problem is volume and state of mind. I would never degrade my wife or kids by calling them names. I just get loud and mad.


If you just need to get loud and mad, and never threaten, verbally assault, degrade offend or insult, and are not deliberately making an attempt to scare or intimidate, you are perfectly allowed to as a human being. We wouldn't have vocal chords that go that loud if we were never meant to utilize them.

Your state of mind matters though, or at least if you are unpredictable and volatile. Cussing and swearing around minors is not very appropriate, and if you cannot control that then you need to keep working at techniques to quell it.

But if it's just that your W doesn't like it when you need to vent your frustrations at a high volume, then tough cookies for her. She should hopefully be mature enough to walk away and not bother dealing with it. Yelling when angry is for many a genuine need, not for the audience but for the yeller.

I have rarely yelled in my life, but once or twice a year my feisty 8 year old son will push me to the point that the ONLY way I have been able to enforce a boundary without physical violence is to yell (the deep, attention-commanding, authoritative type which you speak of). And it has worked for me to protect myself, and of which I have no shame, and which has re-established the boundaries that were lacking which ultimately led to less stress and a better functioning relationship for both my son and myself.

It sounds to me that a large part of the problem may be that your W does not want you to be the one that determines your own boundaries.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

I just got off the phone with my wife and told her I'm going to get some help. She was beside herself happy!

I just don't want a quack. I'll try to do some local research and follow up on this thread.

Thanks for everyones help!!!!!
Really, thanks!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> Should I look for a phycologist or therapist. If I do this, I want it to be one on one. What should I look for in the "phone book?"
> Does insurance cover this?


Any therapist (PhD) or any counselor (MLCSW) will be able to to do 1:1 anger management,

Check your insurance for mental health benefits. Lots of plans offer EAP sessions. Employee Assistance Plans give subscribers a set number of free counseling sessions designed to diagnose and help begin therapy. The goal being that an employee who can freely access mental health care will ultimately be a better employee.

Call the number on the back of your card and ask about mental health benefits.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Anger managment involves getting to the deeper emotion. Anger is on the surface, it masks what lies beneath. Usually hurt and fear. Once you tap into what your anger is masking, you can better identify the ROOT emotion and then act accordingly which will all by itself prevent the impulse to outburst.
> 
> Child runs into the street and nearly misses getting hit by a car. You saw this from the upstairs window and went running outside with your heart in your throat!
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you wrote here AP, EXCEPT for the very last sentence - anger is a positive emotion, it is a powerful force that comes out when we need strength. It's not that anger shouldn't happen, it's that we don't want to unleash it a la the Hulk in a green fury of destruction.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> I agree with everything you wrote here AP, EXCEPT for the very last sentence - anger is a positive emotion, it is a powerful force that comes out when we need strength. It's not that anger shouldn't happen, it's that we don't want to unleash it a la the Hulk in a green fury of destruction.


While I personally agree with you and have found anger to be a powerful emotional tool to prompt positive changes, some schools of thought feel anger is a false emotion and serve no ultimate purpose.

The trick is, controlling which anger comes forth. Destructive or tool for change.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> While I personally agree with you and have found anger to be a powerful emotional tool to prompt positive changes, some schools of thought feel anger is a false emotion and serve no ultimate purpose.
> 
> The trick is, controlling which anger comes forth. Destructive or tool for change.


I have found being angry at yourself, pushes you to do better or seek a solution, while being angry at someone else just projects negativity & often hurts feelings.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, I agree with you and have taken that approach. I apologized within an hour to each person involved, explained why I was angry, but also explained that the way I handled it was wrong. I again apologized the next day to each person. After that, I have moved on and everyone is fine except my wife.
> My wife wants a guarantee that it will never happen again. She actually tells me to let her be angry.
> The problem is, weeks or even months will go by and she'll bring it up again.


she is beating a dead horse. weeks or months is not normal. when she dose this she is being just as bad as you two wrongs don't make a right. tell her listen I'm trying to better myself and I think i was doing well as my wife you should be able to forgive a slip up every once and a great while especially when I come and apoligise for it. if you can't work with me on this then maybe its a deal breaker for you. $hit or get off the pot. because your resentment of me for my slip up are starting to be a deal breaker for me.

then offer going to a marriage counselor.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Good for you, UMP!

Meditation has been mentioned twice in this thread and I'm going to mention it a third time. 

If you learn it, practice it, then REALLY learn how to do it, not only does it have the potential to solve you anger problem, it can change your whole life!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> Going from several times a week to once a year is not "action?"



I'm sure Anon will mention my tendency to look at outliers  but here it goes.

If you haven't addressed the fundamental reasons you have those events - once a day or once a year - then all you have demonstrated is that you're very good in controlling it. Not eliminating it. (It = the behavior).

My wife's BPD has gone from several rage episodes a week to once or twice a year. Is she "cured"? Of course not.

By blowing up like this you're showing her you still have the traits in you that cause those behaviors. And that's her concern. 

It could also be that she does not buy your successful transformation to the extent that you do.

In any case you have work to do, mostly understanding why you got there and how to avoid so in the future.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Anger managment involves getting to the deeper emotion. Anger is on the surface, it masks what lies beneath. Usually hurt and fear. Once you tap into what your anger is masking, you can better identify the ROOT emotion and then act accordingly which will all by itself prevent the impulse to outburst.
> 
> Child runs into the street and nearly misses getting hit by a car. You saw this from the upstairs window and went running outside with your heart in your throat!
> 
> ...


When you wrote this I was shocked because this is EXACTLY how I feel, but did not know why I react with anger. If fear and hurt are two specific roots, how do you combat that so it does not turn into anger?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

T&T said:


> Good for you, UMP!
> 
> Meditation has been mentioned twice in this thread and I'm going to mention it a third time.
> 
> If you learn it, practice it, then REALLY learn how to do it, not only does it have the potential to solve you anger problem, it can change your whole life!


Where do you learn meditation?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

woundedwarrior said:


> I have found being angry at yourself, pushes you to do better or seek a solution, while being angry at someone else just projects negativity & often hurts feelings.


The anger I have when I do blow up ends up in supreme anger at myself for doing what I just did. I hope that makes sense.
I am DETERMINED to turn this negative into a positive for myself and family. 
I always believe that all things work together for good. Unfortunately sometimes it takes a long while to see the positive come out of a situation.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> I'm sure Anon will mention my tendency to look at outliers  but here it goes.
> 
> If you haven't addressed the fundamental reasons you have those events - once a day or once a year - then all you have demonstrated is that you're very good in controlling it. Not eliminating it. (It = the behavior).
> 
> ...


This is my main issue. I do realize that I have been controlling it, and I think doing a good job. However, the question is, can it ever truly be ELIMINATED in ones persona?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> While I personally agree with you and have found anger to be a powerful emotional tool to prompt positive changes, some schools of thought feel anger is a false emotion and serve no ultimate purpose.
> 
> The trick is, controlling which anger comes forth. Destructive or tool for change.


I do believe there is such a thing as righteous anger. 

A guy downtown where I work threatened me with his 45 caliber pistol because I did not give him money. I looked him straight in the eyes and screamed at him with some choice words. The interesting part about this incident is that I felt absolutely NO fear whatsoever. I cussed him out and told him to get the f$ck away from me and stared him down. He just turned around and left.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> she is beating a dead horse. weeks or months is not normal. when she dose this she is being just as bad as you two wrongs don't make a right. tell her listen I'm trying to better myself and I think i was doing well as my wife you should be able to forgive a slip up every once and a great while especially when I come and apoligise for it. if you can't work with me on this then maybe its a deal breaker for you. $hit or get off the pot. because your resentment of me for my slip up are starting to be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> then offer going to a marriage counselor.


To be clear, what she will do is bring something up months after the fact. Let's say in a week she is fine, we're having sex, all is good. A couple months will go by and she will bring it up, sometimes before sex with nothing done by me to prompt it.
She has a VERY hard time forgetting things or maybe forgiving. I, on the other hand forget within seconds, providing there is a genuine apology.

Again, to be clear, I did not degrade anyone or touch anyone. I did scream at the top of my lungs in anger and used the word F$ck several times. I have NEVER purposely degraded or hit my children or wife in anger.
I think my main problem is that when I get angry at someone, or something I use no filters and I look possessed (so they tell me). Then it starts to boil onto myself. I start getting angry that I'm angry which makes things worse on myself, others and starts sounding irrational.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> This is my main issue. I do realize that I have been controlling it, and I think doing a good job. However, the question is, can it ever truly be ELIMINATED in ones persona?



You can't eliminate such behaviors per se without years of behavioral intervention but you can really plan ahead to avoid the triggers of said behaviors in the first place...


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anger management is good, but you also must find a productive way to let people know that you are not happy with a particular situation.

Early in my 20+ year marriage, my wife shared similar concerns about my yelling. I stopped. Stuffed it in. Ultimately, this behavior put me on the path of being a patsy "Nice Guy" as described in the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover.

Ten years into the marriage, I harbored every type of resentment that you could imagine. I couldn't "yell" because that was "out of bounds" for our relationship. Through the help of NMMNG, I finally found the right voice and discovered that it wasn't the yelling that upset her. Winds up she didn't like being called out on her faults, even when I did so in an even-keeled way. Yelling really had little to do with it.

This is long way of saying that you may need marriage counseling at some point for you both to agree on ways that you can express your hurt, disappointments and frustrations in a more positive way. It's not about eliminating anger. It's about finding more appropriate ways to share your feelings in a productive way.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> To be clear, what she will do is bring something up months after the fact. Let's say in a week she is fine, we're having sex, all is good. A couple months will go by and she will bring it up, sometimes before sex with nothing done by me to prompt it.
> She has a VERY hard time forgetting things or maybe forgiving. I, on the other hand forget within seconds, providing there is a genuine apology.
> 
> Again, to be clear, I did not degrade anyone or touch anyone. I did scream at the top of my lungs in anger and used the word F$ck several times. I have NEVER purposely degraded or hit my children or wife in anger.
> I think my main problem is that when I get angry at someone, or something I use no filters and I look possessed (so they tell me). Then it starts to boil onto myself. I start getting angry that I'm angry which makes things worse on myself, others and starts sounding irrational.


Well, I guess I am a Neanderthal because I do not see anything so horrid with what your saying here.

while I can concede that using your loudest voice and swearing dropping the f bombs are probably not the best thing I don't think it deserves a bunch of anger management and phycology bull crap to fix what most red blooded American men occasionally do when pushed to far. and sometimes its just what the dr ordered. 

she is passive aggressively abusing you as much as you are verbally abusing her. If you can call it that.

let me get this straight.

you used to do this sort of thing often whenever you guys had an argument/disagreement/or you had a ligament beef with her.

she acted as if she was scared out of her wits and thought you might escalate to physical violence. (which never happened)

so what ever your original beef was got lost in the shuffle because your a crazy lunatic and she got a free pass to continue doing what ever causes your strong reaction in the first place. 

Now you have been walking on egg shells trying your best not to use a loud voice and every once in a while you slip up and she cries foul whenever it suits her to make you feel bad.


let me ask you this is she putting in effort to not do the things that are causing you to have these out bursts in the first place?

you have indicated that your outbursts are warranted or at least there is some behavior on her/your families part that is distasteful/wrong on some level. if that is true does your wife and family recognize that they should be trying to better themselves and not do or at least learn that the things they are doing need to change also? 


now with all that said ........maybe a different approach to dealing with infractions/problems would be worth while. a softer voice with more action behind it ......say like I asked you guy about this and because your not even trying I am not going to do this or that until its resolved. maybe not paying a cell phone bill or talking in a calm voice and setting some penalties for their actions that are not up to snuff.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> Well, I guess I am a Neanderthal because I do not see anything so horrid with what your saying here.
> 
> while I can concede that using your loudest voice and swearing dropping the f bombs are probably not the best thing I don't think it deserves a bunch of anger management and phycology bull crap to fix what most red blooded American men occasionally do when pushed to far. and sometimes its just what the dr ordered.
> 
> ...


This particular incident started out with my 15 year old daughter having a bunch of her friends over before her school dance. My wife thought it would be less stress on me and everyone involved if I were to go out with my mentally handicapped daughter to catch a movie. (my handicapped daughter can be a handful in a crowd of people at the house). I get home and the front fence is destroyed along with a couple light posts. Part of the automated front gate was also damaged. The total loss is about $1,000.00. I get into the house with the light post in my hands and the first thing out of my wifes mouth is an angry "why didn't you answer your phone?" I piss and moan about how this could/should have been prevented (16 year old girl backed up a 300 ft. driveway like she was drunk. She was not drunk, just can't drive backwards) I always tell people to never back up and direct them out of the place. I had a son, wife and daughter all there watching this. I get no apology from my daughter and reluctance from my wife to pursue any payback from this girl. I basically ranted and raved about it, then my 17 year old son chimes in telling me not to get upset at my wife, that it was not her fault. I told him that "this is just between me and your mother and to not butt in." He keeps arguing with me at the same time I'm talking to my wife and it was F this and F that and F you for a couple minutes.

I took a teachable moment and blew it all up in my face. Now everyone is pissed at me and I'm going to eat the $1,000.00.
Still not even an apology from my daughter or anyone else for that matter (about the fence and gate)

It was like, sh$t happens, deal with it, kind of attitude and I got upset. I sometimes feel like just a paycheck and a repair man whose got to just shut up and take it.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Ump,

How are disagreements settled in your house now, when you're not blowing your stack?

Do you feel like you get a fair shake at getting your side of the story on the table for consideration? Will your wife acknowledge the times when she shares some - or all - of the fault for a problem.

If you truly blow her miscues off quickly, it would seem that you're not harboring too much resentment. But when she does feel wronged, do you get an extended silent treatment? If there is a disagreement, does it always require an apology from you to clear the air? 

Learning how you handle conflict on standard basis gives us insight on how your outbursts fit in against that context.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Ump,
> 
> How are disagreements settled in your house now, when you're not blowing your stack?
> 
> ...


I always feel like I have to apologize, no matter what. In the 23 years we've been married I can count on less than one hand her saying "I'm sorry." Maybe it's because I'm at fault all the time. I guess that is possible.
Her silent treatments are legendary. She has a will of steal. These last couple days have been horrible. I can hardly sleep. Everyone is pissed and my wife is still angry. I feel she likes being angry, as if she has something to hold over me. It's almost like she enjoys punishing me, or at least that's how I feel. I can never win an argument with her. It's like fighting a ninja with a tooth pick. Not a good idea.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

UMP said:


> I agree.
> Does anyone have a book they might recommend?
> 
> My main problem is volume and state of mind. I would never degrade my wife or kids by calling them names. I just get loud and mad.


i.e. you didn't utter any so-called 'words you can't take back.'
even the most loving spouses/parents will sometimes do that.
(e.g. "I wish I'd never met you!")

I should add that there is no excuse for doing "the silent treatment" on one's spouse. one could argue that is emotional abuse. also clearly juvenile........
how long does she/will she go without speaking to you?? she literally gives you a silent treatment??


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> i.e. you didn't utter any so-called 'words you can't take back.'
> even the most loving spouses/parents will sometimes do that.
> (e.g. "I wish I'd never met you!")
> 
> ...


No, did not do that. 
My wife will keep up a silent treatment for as long as it takes me to either say I am sorry or I try to figure out what's wrong.
She has never taken the first step in ending the silent treatment. Usually it does not last more than a couple days.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

UMP said:


> No, did not do that.
> My wife will keep up a silent treatment for as long as it takes me to either say I am sorry or I try to figure out what's wrong.
> She has never taken the first step in ending the silent treatment. Usually it does not last more than a couple days.


2 days silent treatment? during these spells you can ask her question after question and she won't even make a sound in response?? literally??


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

UMP said:


> For the last couple years I have really grown a pair of balls and as I have told everyone, sex has been great.
> One of my issues was managing my anger. I am under a lot of pressure on many fronts. Usually, if I get pissed, I take a deep breath and go to my man cave till I can handle the situation properly. This past weekend things were hitting me from all angles and I simply blew up. I said things I should not have said in front of my wife and teenage kids. It only took a few words to undo everything I have been working on for years (at least this is how I feel about it)
> 
> I cannot remember the last time my wife turned me down for sex, but it happened last night. I took it well, but feel that I have lost some respect from my wife.
> ...



Google search for anger management courses in your area. They are out there. I my area I can attend one. It cost money but it does show to you W that you recognize there is a problem and you are going to get it fixed/worked on. I had to do it. My anger was getting out of control. Mostly learned not to sweat the small things because they just do not matter. I also count to 10 sometimes. 


The important thing here is recognizing the problem and actively looking to get it handled professionally. Your W needs to see this and experience the staying power of controlling your anger. I can tell you...SHE DOES NOT LIKE GETTING YELLED AT! Sit with your W. Explain you have grasped the problem and look now to get it corrected.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> No, did not do that.
> My wife will keep up a silent treatment for as long as it takes me to either say I am sorry or I try to figure out what's wrong.
> She has never taken the first step in ending the silent treatment. Usually it does not last more than a couple days.


Well, you can either live the rest of your life cowering in fear of her and her lack of ability to communicate effectively, or you can take the bull by the horns.

This is not an individual counseling issue. This is a marriage counseling issue. Find a marriage counselor, make an appointment. Sit her down and tell her the silent treatment is BS and is every single bit as damaging to you as your yelling is to her. The only difference is that you're trying to do something to fix your problem while she sits there getting to employ her favorite tool of emotional abuse with complete immunity.

Your relationship is on thinner ice than you suspect. And your anger is not the only thing to blame for the troubles. She's equal partners in creating this mess. You will need the intervention of an outsider to help deliver this message to her - and even then I suspect she will be slow to recognize her own contributions to the dysfunction.


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

UMP said:


> Where do you learn meditation?


Hi Ump, just google "meditation techniques" Lots of info there and there should be local places you can attend, if need be. There are several different types of meditation.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

UMP, my husband has anger management issues - he blows his top on a regular basis. Several weeks ago he spent the whole day in a foul mood, shouting, swearing and ranting while drinking half a bottle of whiskey. The following day, I explained that I had spent the whole day frightened of him and he has not had a drink in the house since then. However, in the two years that we've been married I've witnessed so many of these angry episodes that it's had quite a debilitating effect on our relationship. There are things I won't say and problems in the relationship that I don't mention for fear of setting him off again. About 15 months ago he had a really bad meltdown and said some really unforgivable stuff about me, threatened to harm my family, etc. He always apologises afterwards and claims that if he says something in anger (threats to harm) then he won't actually do that. That's cold comfort to me. Most of his angry outbursts are not about me or aimed at me, however, listening to him rant and rave about stuff is not pleasant, it has a huge effect on my own moods and on my feelings towards him. Although he hasn't had a drink for several weeks now, he still has days when he is angry. Today he has spent the whole day in a foul mood, sitting in front of his computer watching netflix with headphones on. He's removed the headphones on several occasions to rant about something, letting me know that he's in a stinking mood. I've tiptoed around him and just got on with my work. I'm too worried to try to lighten his mood by talking to him as I'm scared this will set him off on another rant. About an hour ago, he discovered that the dog had eaten a piece of chocolate he left on the table overnight and went absolutely beserk - shouting and swearing at the dog (which is now sitting as close to me in my home office as possible). I think the bad mood was brought on because I slept on the sofa last night - I couldn't get to sleep in the bedroom - he was snoring. However, the last thing I want to do right now is get into bed with him tonight.

Try to understand that while you forget your outburst almost immediately, for your wife and children it will take some time to get over this and allow themselves to relax in your presence again. Living with somebody who may lose it and start shouting and verbally abusing them at any minute is a huge strain. Once you do manage to relax again, you're even more shocked by the next outburst that came from nowhere and you start berating yourself for letting your guard down. This is why it can take so long for your wife to come to terms with each outburst of anger.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UMP said:


> I always feel like I have to apologize, no matter what. In the 23 years we've been married I can count on less than one hand her saying "I'm sorry." Maybe it's because I'm at fault all the time. I guess that is possible.
> Her silent treatments are legendary. She has a will of steal. These last couple days have been horrible. I can hardly sleep. Everyone is pissed and my wife is still angry. I feel she likes being angry, as if she has something to hold over me. It's almost like she enjoys punishing me, or at least that's how I feel. I can never win an argument with her. It's like fighting a ninja with a tooth pick. Not a good idea.


Have you even read my post earlier in the thread? you think those last three days were horrible for you? Magnify that by few times over and that's how she feels. 

She is not punishing you. She is disappointed and depressed. After twenty years she had hopes things will changes, and for another time you proved to her, that she is simply naïve. Life goes on. That's her side. and you said that the whole family is pissed off at you, not just her.,,,

If you think you are better just because you "let go" after yelling and shouting for few minutes, think again. You are getting this off your chest by throwing it on someone else's.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

UMP said:


> Anon Pink,
> I should have said MY WIFE never forgets. At least that's how I perceive it. You have to understand that I have made gargantuan efforts in controlling my anger. If you compare myself to 20 years ago, in this regard, I'm a completely different person. If I got upset a couple times a week, now it's maybe once a year, if that.
> The problem is when I screw up, I feel like I lose 20 years of progress in 30 seconds. That's what makes me so upset with myself.
> 
> ...


This is completely untrue. If you want to control your anger you absolutely can and it is your choice. My FIL had your problem for years. He really is a good man but this was his flaw. One day a very good friend who knew him well was having a casual conversation with him and said "FIL you can never talk to your wife in a disrespectful manner ever again". My FIL said a light went off because of who was telling him this. It changed his life and his wife's life because it never has happened again. That was over 10 years ago.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Sounds like your kids need to be part of this counseling as well. I do not get why no one is accountable for the damage done to your home. Completely unacceptable.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

RClawson said:


> This is completely untrue. If you want to control your anger you absolutely can and it is your choice. My FIL had your problem for years. He really is a good man but this was his flaw. One day a very good friend who knew him well was having a casual conversation with him and said "FIL you can never talk to your wife in a disrespectful manner ever again". My FIL said a light went off because of who was telling him this. It changed his life and his wife's life because it never has happened again. That was over 10 years ago.


the epiphany moment!!!!! some people have them some people fight it and refuse to see the light. they give lame excuses like I just can't its not in my nature. Baloney if you care enough you can do it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> This particular incident started out with my 15 year old daughter having a bunch of her friends over before her school dance. My wife thought it would be less stress on me and everyone involved if I were to go out with my mentally handicapped daughter to catch a movie. (my handicapped daughter can be a handful in a crowd of people at the house). I get home and the front fence is destroyed along with a couple light posts. Part of the automated front gate was also damaged. The total loss is about $1,000.00. I get into the house with the light post in my hands and the first thing out of my wifes mouth is an angry "why didn't you answer your phone?" I piss and moan about how this could/should have been prevented (16 year old girl backed up a 300 ft. driveway like she was drunk. She was not drunk, just can't drive backwards) I always tell people to never back up and direct them out of the place.
> 
> I *had a son, wife and daughter all there watching this. I get no apology from my daughter and reluctance from my wife to pursue any payback from this girl. I basically ranted and raved about it, then my 17 year old son chimes in telling me not to get upset* at my wife, that it was not her fault.


Stop right here. This is where you lost it. This was the trigger point.

You felt ganged up on. You felt like your feelings were being dismissed. You felt like they did not respect you.

Before going on, ask yourself why your son felt the need to get in between you and your wife? Why did you son need to defend his mother from your anger? What has your history of explosive anger taught your family?




> I told him that "this is just between me and your mother and to not butt in." He keeps arguing with me at the same time I'm talking to my wife and it was F this and F that and F you for a couple minutes.


Your son kept at it. He didn't back down even after you asked him to. He was redirecting your anger from your wife to him. Why did he need to do that? 

I think he did that because his first and only instinct was to protect his mother. I think he has learned your anger. I think he saw the injustice of your anger and it triggered his own which was why he was unable to disengage, particularly noticing how your anger was being triggered.

I think if you had taken some deep breaths and been able to calm yourself, he would have also calmed. But as long as he noticed your anger engaged, he was going to engage to protect his mother.



> I took a teachable moment and blew it all up in my face. Now everyone is pissed at me and I'm going to eat the $1,000.00.
> Still not even an apology from my daughter or anyone else for that matter (about the fence and gate)
> 
> It was like, sh$t happens, deal with it, kind of attitude and I got upset. I sometimes feel like just a paycheck and a repair man whose got to just shut up and take it.


You family gave the blasé attitude because that was what they wanted you to do. It's called "complimentary schizmogenisis." Very fancy word for exaggerating the behavior you wish to see in others in order to influence their behavior.

They wanted you to chill out about it so they super chilled in order to show you how to do it. But their super chill attitude only enflamed you more, because you felt dismissed.

Let me say, the idiocy about your property damage would have pissed me off too! Feeling like I was being ganged up on would have also angered me. But the line you can't cross ever ever again with your family is when you can't take a breath and regroup.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Another phrase for "chilling out" can be usually seen in the infidelity forums. It's called "rug sweeping." In CWI, the conventional wisdom is that rug sweeping is a bad thing that leads to unresolved resentment that poisons the relationship. 

Undoubtedly, Ump displays bad behaviors. Nothing is solved by throwing a tantrum - which essentially is what he is doing. It's an immature response fueled - in part - by the immaturity of those around him. 

No one stepped up to take responsibility or even acknowledge the seriousness of what happened. Here is he is doing everyone a solid by enabling a better gathering for everybody by entertaining their special needs kid out of the home, and all the "normal" ones can't even keep their sh*t together. 

The proper response would've been to walk in, get explanation and calmly defer resolution back onto kid. Kid either gets friend to pay damages, pay for it themselves or gets grounded from cherished activities for a couple weeks. Their choice. Not your problem anymore. Their problem.

You allowed them to dump their problem on you, you sat there and took it like a chump and responded in an immature way. Being able to do this takes patience and practice. But you have to have confidence to set the course and put yourself above the fray, ruling from your perch as a confident king - not a petulant prince.

Your efforts to evolve to this state of being are hindered by your wife and her passive aggressive tendencies. You know there is a price to pay when you try to "lay down the law" like this. That is why you need marriage counseling - for you both to identify these patterns and become aware of techniques that help you change years of learned behavior.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

RClawson said:


> Sounds like your kids need to be part of this counseling as well. I do not get why no one is accountable for the damage done to your home. Completely unacceptable.


I totally agree! The girl who can't back up needs to pay for it.

But I believe UMP's family wanted to rug sweep it to keep his anger at bay.

What they should be doing is recognizing his anger as soon as they see it.

"Honey I can see how angry you are and I get that. We were angry too. But let's all take a day or so and think it through before we make any decisions?"

Anger diffused.

The whole family needs to learn to acknowledge feelings and give them their time in the sun. Bottling emotions is never a wise choice.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> 2 days silent treatment? during these spells you can ask her question after question and she won't even make a sound in response?? literally??


Let me be more specific. It's more of the "cold shoulder" treatment. She will go for days as if nothing happened, no affection whatsoever and if I don't break the ice, she goes on forever. She never admits even doing this. I end up caving and she blames whatever on me, even when I clearly know it's sometimes her fault. 
It's kind of like going into a 8 hour police interview where you have not commited a crime. After 8 hours, you're confessing to the crime and do not know what happened.

Just last night, after being turned down for sex three nights in a row, I kindly told her "if we do have sex tomorrow (she agreed) please don't bring up what I said last weekend, right before sex." She tends to do this seconds before we get it on, which really brings me down. She denied ever doing it and got really quite (cold shoulder) 
Now, she will keep up the cold shoulder until I ask her "what's wrong." If I don't she will not call me at work for days and when I get home tonight she'll be just nice enough to be able to deny that she is giving me the cold shoulder, but you can tell she is pissed. She knows I hate when people are upset with me and I always like to bring things out in the open and talk them through. However, if I do say something, she will turn it against me so that it's my fault.

I am not trying to shift the blame for what I did this past weekend, I genuinely apologized to everyone involved multiple times. Now she's upset because I asked her not to bring up something negative I did seconds before sex.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> I always feel like I have to apologize, no matter what. In the 23 years we've been married I can count on less than one hand her saying "I'm sorry." Maybe it's because I'm at fault all the time. I guess that is possible.
> Her silent treatments are legendary. She has a will of steal. These last couple days have been horrible. I can hardly sleep. Everyone is pissed and my wife is still angry. I feel she likes being angry, as if she has something to hold over me. It's almost like she enjoys punishing me, or at least that's how I feel. I can never win an argument with her. It's like fighting a ninja with a tooth pick. Not a good idea.


If you don't think you can get her to marriage counseling, you're only hope is to change the things that are under your control: that is your reaction to her behavior.

You may benefit from familiarizing yourself with the concepts behind the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. One of the key themes there centers on "detaching the emotional hose." Essentially, you get so focused on winning your wife's approval and satisfaction that you tie yourself up in knots trying to win that approval & your feelings about yourself or hopelessly linked to her current emotional status to you. That is bad.

Absent marriage counseling, you have to learn how to manage your own reaction to her crazy. She's got you on a string and can make you spin around in circles by playing these little cold shoulder games with you. Over the years, you have absolutely re-inforced the notion that these little games work with you and effect you.

Your temper tantrums could be construed - in No More Mr. Nice Guy lexicon - as victim pukes. These are not controlled by stuffing down your temper tantrums. They are addressed by fixing yourself and detaching your emotional hose. It doesn't mean you start being a jerk. It just means that you develop the self - confidence to know that your life is going to be just fine with - or without - "mommy's" approval.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> Let me be more specific. It's more of the "cold shoulder" treatment. She will go for days as if nothing happened, no affection whatsoever and if I don't break the ice, she goes on forever. She never admits even doing this. I end up caving and she blames whatever on me, even when I clearly know it's sometimes her fault.
> It's kind of like going into a 8 hour police interview where you have not commited a crime. After 8 hours, you're confessing to the crime and do not know what happened.
> 
> Just last night, after being turned down for sex three nights in a row, I kindly told her "if we do have sex tomorrow (she agreed) please don't bring up what I said last weekend, right before sex." She tends to do this seconds before we get it on, which really brings me down. She denied ever doing it and got really quite (cold shoulder)
> ...


UMO, you have a very dysfunctional marriage. You all are walking on egg shells. You anger keeps everyone on their toes and your wife's passive aggressive response keeps everyone in their toes.

If you don't feel like you can get your wife into marriage counseling, I think you should make appointments yourself and go. Your therapist can teach you how to recognize and confront her behavior, teach you to recognize your trigger points and the root emotions, and teach you to more effectively cope all around. Once you've got those tools under your belt, you can then work on getting your wife to also step up.

Years ago I found the most excellent therapist who helped me tremendously. But I've also been with therapists who were very nice but not very effective. It is difficult to know which kind of therapist you have until you've been with them a while. But what you're looking for is someone who asks lots of questions digging deeper. Someone who keeps things on topic. Someone who will both challenge and educate you. They should have hand outs occasionally. They should be able to refer you to articles that explain in greater detail the concept they are stressing. Effective therapy for you will rely heavily on learning new tools so your therapist should be a good teacher.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> If you don't think you can get her to marriage counseling, you're only hope is to change the things that are under your control: that is your reaction to her behavior.
> 
> You may benefit from familiarizing yourself with the concepts behind the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. One of the key themes there centers on "detaching the emotional hose." Essentially, you get so focused on winning your wife's approval and satisfaction that you tie yourself up in knots trying to win that approval & your feelings about yourself or hopelessly linked to her current emotional status to you. That is bad.
> 
> ...


I know all this stuff. I have been studying it for years. However, when I am in the middle of the battle it's very difficult to apply to myself. Thanks for reminding me!
What to do tonight? She won't call me all day. In fact, I will bet $100.00 that tonight she'll tell me "sorry honey, I just started my period." We're pretty close to period start day and she has declined sex for 3 days in a row. I was thinking about asking to see her tampon, but I don't think that will fly


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

You're going into very difficult waters here. I'd walk into the house, sit her down and say "I'm not happy with the way we are relating to one another and we both have to find ways to improve. I've scheduled a marriage counseling appt for next week and I'd like you come."

My hunch is that you're too meek to challenge her with the marriage counseling. You're looking for a magic pill that you can solve it from your side. 

If this is the case, you're going to have to do the hard work of knocking her off her pedastal. One technique for doing this is self-imposing a sexual moratorium. Sit her down and say "I don't think our relationship is in a healthy place right now. I need to take sex off the table while I sort through my emotions."

If you're not angling for Vay-jay all the time, it can lead you to acting in a more authentic way that is healthier for the relationship. You're not doing things that are counter-productive to your mental health just to get in her pants.

At the end of the day, your problem is that you're not attacking the problem at the root cause. You're looking for some magic statement that will prompt her to abandon the cold shoulder and make everything right again so that you can have peace this weekend. I get that. But Neville Chamberlain learned that peace at any price can sometimes be counterproductive. 

Yeah, you could bring flowers home, pledge never to do it again and buy peace for another couple weeks or months. But you're not solving the problem. if her passive aggressive behavior makes you miserable, you're going to have to challenge her on it at some point. Not through yelling. But by directly communicating that her behavior is unacceptable and that it will have consequences for her if she continues to engage in that behavior. 

You've trained her to believe that every problem is your fault. You've become too weak to call a spade a spade. In your marriage, you have become a walking, talking jellyfish with no backbone who is unable to articulate dissatisfaction without resorting to imposing your will by being the guy who yells the loudest.

You need to demonstrate your strength in different ways. My hunch is that you believe that challenging your wife on her passive aggressive ways will lead to the end of the marriage. Sometimes that happens when you're a "Nice Guy" who begins changing his stripes. If you fix yourself and your own unhealthy behaviors, you either fix the relationship or accelerate its move to its ultimate demise. There's a very good chance she might not like the Ump with a quiet, confident backbone. The question you have to ask yourself is whether you want to start on the journey to developing that quiet self-assurance or do you want to continue living the way you're living. 

I have no magic statement that will fix your problems and give you the peaceful weekend you crave. You've spent more than 20 years digging this hole, it will take time and effort to work your way out of it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NMMNG and MMSLP and the like may work but they will not help either one of you resolve, as my wife puts it, "what is eating you up inside". 

Invariably the DIY methods are implied communication which is NOT what you two need. You need real communication.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> NMMNG and MMSLP and the like may work but they will not help either one of you resolve, as my wife puts it, "what is eating you up inside".
> 
> Invariably the DIY methods are implied communication which is NOT what you two need. You need real communication.


I was on mmsl for a year or two. Got kicked out for giving advice to someone that did not fill out a "triage" yet. The moderators over there have a very short fuse. I don't tow the line very well.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> NMMNG and MMSLP and the like may work but they will not help either one of you resolve, as my wife puts it, "what is eating you up inside".
> 
> Invariably the DIY methods are implied communication which is NOT what you two need. You need real communication.


Dear lord absolutely! Stay away from those forms of DIY! John is absolutely right. You need to set aside the implied communication and get to the real stuff!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Dear lord absolutely! Stay away from those forms of DIY! John is absolutely right. You need to set aside the implied communication and get to the real stuff!


AP, 
Let me ask you a serious question. How can sex be this good after 23 years with all these hidden problems? My wife and I are having the very best sex we have ever had. I'm talking about a heaping pile of flesh that can't move, gasping for breath, falling off the bed good.
We usually average twice a week to once every 4 or 5 days on the dry side. That's about all I can take at 52 years of age.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> AP,
> Let me ask you a serious question. How can sex be this good after 23 years with all these hidden problems? My wife and I are having the very best sex we have ever had. I'm talking about a heaping pile of flesh that can't move, gasping for breath, falling off the bed good.
> We usually average twice a week to once every 4 or 5 days on the dry side. That's about all I can take at 52 years of age.


I don't know. My H and I are in the exact same boat. We are having the best most awesome sex of our lives and yet we are at each other's throats several times a week. I just don't know but I'm glad there is SOME form of connection still happening!

I'm holding onto something though. If we really were doomed, our sex life would be just as troublesome. I think you should hold onto the same thing. The past troubles cannot be allowed to prevent us from reinforcing our bonds. We have to get through this, right?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Dear lord absolutely! Stay away from those forms of DIY! John is absolutely right. You need to set aside the implied communication and get to the real stuff!


Obviously, marriage counseling & professional help is the best option - particularly given the duration and scope of Ump's challenges. 

That said, I don't see Ump playing the Marriage Counselor card. I think it would rock the boat in a way that is uncomfortable for him (even though it would be to his long-term benefit.)

Failing marriage counseling, taking the steps to learn some of the principles of the DIY approach can help a little bit. Maybe take some of the edge off the situation for him. Absent marriage counseling, DIY is better than twidling your thumbs and sticking with the status quo.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, time. I know. I tend to forget and forgive very quickly. My wife is exactly the opposite. That's another reason I am so upset with myself because I KNOW it will take time, a long time.
> The part I am not looking forward to is that she will bring it up seconds before sex which tends to make my penis take a nose dive.
> The other part is that my anger was justifiable, but as I said in the op, because of my overreaction, I completely negated the validity of my argument. Now all that's left is every ones anger and resentment toward me.
> 
> It's like I climbed a mountain and slipped on the last step only to fall back down to the bottom. So sad.


UMP - You said more than once that your feelings were justified but the delivery was not. That's the part that you need help with, addressing issues when they are small and dealing with extreme stress and anger as it boils to the surface. I think that a therapist could help you with that. 

Being proactive and attacking this head on and relentlessly will convince your wife and family that you can be trusted to handle yourself under all circumstances that arise. Don't say you can't promise it won't happen again, rather promise that you will do everything in your power to make sure it does not. Then do it. 

Give yourself one more day to feel down about this and then forgive yourself. That's the only way you will be able to think and act effectively. Best of luck to you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Dear lord absolutely! Stay away from those forms of DIY! John is absolutely right. You need to set aside the implied communication and get to the real stuff!



  

These implied forms may work with unsophisticated or younger spouses but not with the more experienced 40+ or older... 

If you can't get to the. Real Stuff the DIY books may help address some symptoms but not fix root causes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> Let me ask you a serious question. How can sex be this good after 23 years with all these hidden problems? .



Compartmentalization? Or blowing the perceived problems out of proportion? Or a well developed sense of self preservation in case of (financial / emotional) dependence?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Failing marriage counseling, taking the steps to learn some of the principles of the DIY approach can help a little bit. Maybe take some of the edge off the situation for him. Absent marriage counseling, DIY is better than twidling your thumbs and sticking with the status quo.



So.... You have a case where lack of communication between the spouses is a huge issue and DIY solutions that generally reduce communication even more are suggested...

What could possibly go wrong?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

The problem for Ump right now is that he's communicating the wrong message. He's telling them that it's alright to ignore him and give him the cold shoulder if he does something counter to their wishes. 

Even if the DIY solutions do not promote more communications, at least they may remove / reduce some of the harmful communications. Sometimes actions can speak louder than words.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

UMP said:


> No, I did not say those things to my wife or kids, never have. I cussed a lot and unfortunately I have a VERY loud DEEP voice, which gets louder when I'm angry. I guess I look a bit possessed when I get angry.
> 
> For example, if I am fixing something and smash my finger with a hammer, I scream F$$$$$CK! This upsets my wife. My favorite go to in this situation is "sonofamother"


My husband's voice is so deep and loud that when he yells, it seems to vibrate the air. When our children were small and knew no better, they would gather around him and follow him from room to room to watch. 

Once they used his shoe lacings to fix my sons bicycle. He yelled about how he would have to walk in the snow without his shoes. They did not want that to happen to their Dad and the felt bad and wanted to fix it. When he is very angry he speaks quietly but never attacks anyone. 

Another poster wrote that it's human to get angry and upset, you can't stop that. You need to know how to get angry in a way that shows you are in control of yourself and will not overstep the boundaries of giving respect and causing no harm.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MarriedTex said:


> Even if the DIY solutions do not promote more communications, at least they may remove / reduce some of the harmful communications. Sometimes actions can speak louder than words.



Harmful communications are preferable to cold shouldering each other in my view. UMP dislikes getting the cold shoulder but Heaven forbid if Mrs. UMP dislikes his cold shoulder by means of DIY.

It doesn't work this way.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> she is beating a dead horse. weeks or months is not normal. when she dose this she is being just as bad as you two wrongs don't make a right. tell her listen I'm trying to better myself and I think i was doing well as my wife you should be able to forgive a slip up every once and a great while especially when I come and apoligise for it. if you can't work with me on this then maybe its a deal breaker for you. $hit or get off the pot. because your resentment of me for my slip up are starting to be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> then offer going to a marriage counselor.


I think this is the last thing you should do. If you try to dictate how and when she should forgive then you may seem angry and threatening. 

Can I tell you what happens with me? It may help. 

I can't forget things that hurt or angered me in my marriage. Sometimes the thoughts arise unbidden and I need to express how I feel yet again. My husband is surprised that I bring things up from the past that he does not even remember. When we were first married, he did not want to hear it and so I ruminated. 

That interfered with my ability to feel close to him. All I needed was to talk about how I felt at the time and for him to listen without getting angry, impatient or apologizing. I did not need anything but the freedom of expression to dissipate the feelings. 

Eventually he understood and let me talk and he heard me. The thoughts stopped coming up as often and I don't need to talk about them as much. The feelings are now weak and easy for me to dismiss. It is a small thing and I chose not to let small things ruin my happiness. 

Try not to feel attacked or impatient, just let her talk. It's probably just a way for her to dissipate the feelings. She should keep her word if she decides to forgive you. Bringing it up does not mean she does not, she may just need to talk. Don't stop her or dread it. Just accept with empathy and move on. It will come up less probably.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

UMP:
but as others have said you have things you need to tell her; the way she relates to you etc.

others have said this too I think but get a good IC, many of which also do marriage counseling. go for IC and start talking to them about your marriage, which will come up on days 1 anyway. Let the process build until your wife agrees to start MC with you. then go from there. she needs to be part of the process; she does not fight with you fairly. she needs to learn that.

one more thing. with a handicapped daughter and other kids it sounds like your marriage has multiple stressors. do you think you might be depressed?? your IC might raise that. if you have feelings that tend to always come to the surface as anger, might be an indicater.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

UMP said:


> Anon Pink,
> I should have said MY WIFE never forgets. At least that's how I perceive it. You have to understand that I have made gargantuan efforts in controlling my anger. If you compare myself to 20 years ago, in this regard, I'm a completely different person. If I got upset a couple times a week, now it's maybe once a year, if that.
> The problem is when I screw up, I feel like I lose 20 years of progress in 30 seconds. That's what makes me so upset with myself.
> 
> ...


This kind of gives me hope. My husband has a short fuse and always has. The fact that you used to blow up in anger regularly to once a year is a big deal..in a good way. I would cut you some slack. I'd be jumping up for joy if my husbands outburst decreased to once a yr.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

UMP said:


> To be clear, what she will do is bring something up months after the fact. Let's say in a week she is fine, we're having sex, all is good. A couple months will go by and she will bring it up, sometimes before sex with nothing done by me to prompt it.
> She has a VERY hard time forgetting things or maybe forgiving. I, on the other hand forget within seconds, providing there is a genuine apology.
> 
> Again, to be clear, I did not degrade anyone or touch anyone. I did scream at the top of my lungs in anger and used the word F$ck several times. I have NEVER purposely degraded or hit my children or wife in anger.
> I think my main problem is that when I get angry at someone, or something I use no filters and I look possessed (so they tell me). Then it starts to boil onto myself. I start getting angry that I'm angry which makes things worse on myself, others and starts sounding irrational.


It's a sh!t test read up on them.
Also just wanted to ask do you lift weights?
Try to find 1 hr 3 days a week it helps yes I know it's tough after work.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> I think this is the last thing you should do. If you try to dictate how and when she should forgive then you may seem angry and threatening.
> 
> Can I tell you what happens with me? It may help.
> 
> ...


Well, it's been over a week now and it's not getting better.
My wife reluctantly had sex Friday and it was bad. She was still able to have an orgasm but it was almost like having sex with a passive aggressive person. Moving her face away just slightly as if saying she did not want to kiss, but did kiss. Just very disjointed and weird. It's hard to put my finger on it. She was not hating me with her vagina, but it was close.

At this point, I don't know what to do. I don't want to be passive aggressive too. When you get no affection and everything is cloaked in a web of anger that you cannot call someone out on, what do you do? I already apologized several times. 

I'm getting **** test after **** test. I'm living in a **** test storm.

Edit:
If I ask her "what's wrong" she will twist it to say that I'm the one who is upset. It's almost as if SHE WANTS me to blow my top. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy. When I look at a specific situation, I know the reality, but somehow she switches it to something else. I want to end this type of behavior, but don't know what to do. If I just mind my own business and go work out or something, she will say I'm the one being passive aggressive and angry.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Sounds like she is baiting you. The only answer to me in this type of situation is to 'not take the bait'. she is getting to you and she knows it. Try to detach for a couple of days and see what happens. Don't try to engage her or ask for sex. Be polite and cheery as you can.
Busy yourself with constructive fun stuff.

A mini 180 just to let her know your not taking the bait?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ump, I've been known to bring something up long after its over. This is because it never really got resolved for me. 

Sounds to me like your wife has some deeper resentments going on that you need to get out in the open. I know my hb will sometimes apologize but how it made me feel and why it upset me so much he won't address, which in my mind means it's not resolved because he'll do it again. Have you guys tried MC?

My guess is that she doesn't feel safe with you, justified or not. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> Sounds like she is baiting you. The only answer to me in this type of situation is to 'not take the bait'. she is getting to you and she knows it. Try to detach for a couple of days and see what happens. Don't try to engage her or ask for sex. Be polite and cheery as you can.
> Busy yourself with constructive fun stuff.
> 
> A mini 180 just to let her know your not taking the bait?


She will act as if nothing is wrong, you know, like talking about the weather with someone you don't even know kind of thing. She will not touch me, at all. The problem is, when someone acts like this to me, I don't want to touch them either, hence it becomes "my fault."

I think she is the type of woman that needs a big ass alpha kind of guy to out last all her petty **** tests.

Here is an example of the MOTHER of all **** tests:
We're having sex Friday, and she's blowing me and asks me to use the vibrator. I say I would rather use the dildo, she says it too big. I say it's about the same size as mine and she says "prove it." So I get the dildo out and put it next to my penis and she starts saying "that is HUGE, so much bigger and thicker than yours." It is a bit bigger but not by much and my penis is above average to begin with. She said it in a condescending way in order to minimize my penis size. I was a trouper and still made her cum, but DAMN, that was a difficult shiit test.

Edit:
Talk about baiting! She would have loved me to get all upset, stop having sex and to go pout downstairs.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Ump, I've been known to bring something up long after its over. This is because it never really got resolved for me.
> 
> Sounds to me like your wife has some deeper resentments going on that you need to get out in the open. I know my hb will sometimes apologize but how it made me feel and why it upset me so much he won't address, which in my mind means it's not resolved because he'll do it again. Have you guys tried MC?
> 
> ...


She CAN'T feel unsafe. I do everything for my wife and kids, I mean everything. I don't even have any friends outside of my family. Maybe 1 guy I see from Canada once a year. I have NEVER purposely hurt anyone in my family by degrading them or touching them. Yes, I have gotten upset at circumstances and blown up, but like I said it's been a year since the last time.
Now, it's almost as if she wants me to fail. Read my above post.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"Edit:
Talk about baiting! She would have loved me to get all upset, stop having sex and to go pout downstairs."

Absolutely she would have loved it. She is punishing you in her own way, and tormenting you. The more I read, the more inclined I am to believe that although you blew it and she has a right to be upset and as some others have suggested, she is stunned and somewhat fearful, she has also brought out her own double barrel shotgun and using it in a vengeful way.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> "Edit:
> Talk about baiting! She would have loved me to get all upset, stop having sex and to go pout downstairs."
> 
> Absolutely she would have loved it. She is punishing you in her own way, and tormenting you. The more I read, the more inclined I am to believe that although you blew it and she has a right to be upset and as some others have suggested, she is stunned and somewhat fearful, she has also brought out her own double barrel shotgun and using it in a vengeful way.


Yes, I agree.
What to do? I feel like I'm in a catch 22. Damned if I do or say something, damned if I don't.
If I suggest that she is punishing me, she'll spin it around and blame it on me.
This is so painful. I hate this shiit. At least if I get upset, I lay it all out and am done with it. Her "punishment" will last forever, or at least it feels that way.

I have in the past, caved in and simply said "I cannot live this way" also told her "if you want me to leave just let me know."
At that point she usually backs down, but then goes back to the same sublime attacks again.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

do you like your wife?

do you respect the way she interacts with others?

do you respect the way she interacts with you?

dose she respect your opinion and your judgment.

just by what you wrote it doesn't seem like it.it seems like she is manipulating you.

so every time she wants her way she plays the I still remember when you lost your temper.

I would ask for counseling and if she refuses to go go yourself if nothing else it will help you to determine if you really have a anger problem and if you want to stay in the relationship with its present day dynamics.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

UMP said:


> She will act as if nothing is wrong, you know, like talking about the weather with someone you don't even know kind of thing. She will not touch me, at all. The problem is, when someone acts like this to me, I don't want to touch them either, hence it becomes "my fault."
> 
> I think she is the type of woman that needs a big ass alpha kind of guy to out last all her petty **** tests.
> 
> ...


Seriously? She asked you for the vibrator because that's what she wanted and you responded her with what you'd RATHER use on her? Sorry, that's a fail. Would you be ok with asking her for a bj and her telling you she'd rather give you a hj? She asked for what she wanted. 

As far as feeling unsafe, I'm not talking about you doing stuff for her. I'm talking about emotionally. Now I have to ask if you have a history of not really listening to what she thinks or wants.

Snotty comments like she made are a hallmark of PA people who otherwise feel powerless. I know this dynamic because my hb is like this. My guess is she's afraid of conflict, you're a big loud guy who intimidates her emotionally, and she doesn't know how to stand up for what she wants or needs. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

UMP said:


> For the last couple years I have really grown a pair of balls and as I have told everyone, sex has been great.
> One of my issues was managing my anger. I am under a lot of pressure on many fronts. Usually, if I get pissed, I take a deep breath and go to my man cave till I can handle the situation properly. This past weekend things were hitting me from all angles and I simply blew up. I said things I should not have said in front of my wife and teenage kids. It only took a few words to undo everything I have been working on for years (at least this is how I feel about it)
> 
> I cannot remember the last time my wife turned me down for sex, but it happened last night. I took it well, but feel that I have lost some respect from my wife.
> ...


No! This was NOT a giant fail. You screwed up once, apologized and that should be that. Your wife shouldn't be holding this over your head. You don't hold all that things she had done wrong over her head, right? It's just a way for her to try to control you. My wife does the same things, she holds things that I did that were percived to be "wrong" by her over my head even though they have been discussed at length, apologized for etc etc. It seems for some women, old things never die, they get new life whenever the hell she wants so she always has something to ***** at.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> do you like your wife?
> 
> do you respect the way she interacts with others?
> 
> ...



I love and like my wife. She absolutely respects my opinion and judgment. When she is not in this mood she definitely interacts well with me and others.
At the present, it's almost as if she is testing and pushing me to my limit to see if I will blow up.
Not very fun.
I think she has a need to test me at this point. Maybe that's a good thing, if I pass the tests.

She knows that one of the things I absolutely hate is when someone is angry with me. I will try to make things right ASAP. Early on in this particular argument, I tried but was unsuccessful. She even told me to "just let me be angry."
However, her anger is displayed with passive aggressive mind games, which is about as bad as living in hell, to me.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Seriously? She asked you for the vibrator because that's what she wanted and you responded her with what you'd RATHER use on her? Sorry, that's a fail. Would you be ok with asking her for a bj and her telling you she'd rather give you a hj? She asked for what she wanted.
> 
> As far as feeling unsafe, I'm not talking about you doing stuff for her. I'm talking about emotionally. Now I have to ask if you have a history of not really listening to what she thinks or wants.
> 
> ...


No, I listen to what she wants and thinks all the time. I even moved our entire household from a house we lived in for 15 years so that our mentally handicapped daughter would have a place to roam. 
Regarding the dildo, I did not insist on using anything. The dildo was just a playful suggestion on my part and she used it to try and undermine my penis size? That's just plain evil.
She's not afraid of conflict at all. She can scream with the best of them. Not often, but she can and does.
As far as arguing with her, I would have better luck knocking out Mike Tyson in the first round.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Ump,

You are in the middle of a relationship power play. She liked it when you were docile, compliant for a year. She had all her tools in place for keeping you in line & you were literally de-fanged.

Now, the spectre of you "yelling" and calling her out on stuff is real again. She is insecure and ups her passive aggressive tactics to keep the upper hand.

Again, I repeat, you need outside help to call her on her part in the relationship dysfunction. The Emperor has no clothes here - or at least very few social skills. She will not respond if you call her out on it. She may or may not accept the evaluation of an outsider.

You cannot win this Cold War on your own. Passive aggressive resentment is much easier to sustain over the long haul than is white-hot anger. With anger, you ultimately get tired of being angry. Resentment nurtures itself and actually becomes an individual's go-to emotional crutch over time. 

You have two choices. You can engage and look for outside help to solve the problem. Or you can fold, apologize and kick the can down the road until the next relationship crisis. You should do the former but I suspect you will choose the latter. Just remember that - just because one path is the easiest to take - it does not mean that the path is best for your long-term well-being.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Ump,
> 
> You are in the middle of a relationship power play. She liked it when you were docile, compliant for a year. She had all her tools in place for keeping you in line & you were literally de-fanged.
> 
> ...


In the past I would always give in to her passive aggressive behavior by either victim puke or just telling her I can't take it anymore. In 23 years, I can only remember 1 time when she came to me wanting to talk it out.

What if I just try and outlast her passive aggressive behavior? Just be as happy as possible and let her take the first step. How long can someone keep this up?
I could also tell her I want some time to myself and go stay at a hotel for a couple of days.

The marriage counseling would be VERY hard to convince her to go.

BTW: Thanks for all your advice!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

jb02157 said:


> No! This was NOT a giant fail. You screwed up once, apologized and that should be that. Your wife shouldn't be holding this over your head. You don't hold all that things she had done wrong over her head, right? It's just a way for her to try to control you. My wife does the same things, she holds things that I did that were percived to be "wrong" by her over my head even though they have been discussed at length, apologized for etc etc. It seems for some women, old things never die, they get new life whenever the hell she wants so she always has something to ***** at.


How do you end the cycle? My goal was to never blow up again so she had nothing to use against me. I was doing a fine job for a year. However, she knows which buttons to push, if you know what I mean.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> You might be on to something here, but I think it would give you better results if you sent her away for the weekend to reflect on her behavior towards you and your relationship.
> 
> From experience, the times I've spent alone, away from my family, have been some of the most inspiring and introspective in my life. No distractions can help us see things through a clearer lens.


It would be VERY difficult to send her away, but I can leave easily. I have suggested this during her past PA episodes and she always nicely tells me not to leave, but keeps up the behavior 10 minutes later.
At the moment, I can't even sleep at night. She is so cold and unapproachable, in a covert sort of way. It's nicely disguised with every day niceties so that you can't call her out on it. If I do call her out, she says it's my fault and my problem and my actions causing the problem. Calling her out will simply NOT work.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lila said:


> UMP, why would it be difficult to send her away? Do you think she'd reject a weekend away in the mountains (or whatever you have nearby where the distractions are less)?


Yes, she would reject it. She could/would NOT leave our 3 kids.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Lila said:


> UMP, why would it be difficult to send her away? Do you think she'd reject a weekend away in the mountains (or whatever you have nearby where the distractions are less)?


Ump can't "send" her away anymore than he could make her want the one toy when she actually wanted another, nor can he make her not want to be angry if she needs/wants to be angry.

You can't control what another person feels, think, believes or wants you only have authority over your own thoughts, feelings and actions.

As I read this thread I'm seeing two passive aggressive people that are not able or willing to actually listen to each others needs, both want to control the other and neither are willing to concede. But both still generally like each other and are happy when things are going well.

Ump, it seems like your W and you generally have a lot of good chemistry, except when you don't. I'd suggest stop trying to micro manage each other, and stop attaching your own moods to her behaviors - that would also help prevent your angry outbursts towards your W at those moments it causes her the most angst.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex, 
The more I think about it, the more I agree that this is a relationship "power play." The thing is, I don't know what she is looking for. I give her and my family everything they want, literally, within reason. I talk and listen well with my children and wife as well.
I think, deep down, maybe she's afraid that I will leave. I have no friends, or free time to speak of. Anytime I suggest going to see a friend out of town or picking up a new hobby, she gets very concerned. She also used to tell me on a very regular basis "you can do anything you want to, and I will stay, but if you ever cheat on me, I will leave you."
I have never cheated on my wife and don't ever plan to, but maybe she's afraid I'm thinking about leaving.
What is the goal of the "power play?'

I guess if I were in this "power play" battle I would simply want more affection from her and for her to be a bit more adventurous in bed. Other than that, and getting rid of her PA tendency, I don't want anything else.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> Ump can't "send" her away anymore than he could make her want the one toy when she actually wanted another, nor can he make her not want to be angry if she needs/wants to be angry.
> 
> You can't control what another person feels, think, believes or wants you only have authority over your own thoughts, feelings and actions.
> 
> ...


Yes, 
This makes a lot of sense. The immediate question is, how do I act in a NON passive aggressive way when my wife will not touch me and is angry with me?
It's very difficult to be happy and pleasant when your wife is shiit testing you left and right.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> In the past I would always give in to her passive aggressive behavior by either victim puke or just telling her I can't take it anymore. In 23 years, I can only remember 1 time when she came to me wanting to talk it out.
> 
> What if I just try and outlast her passive aggressive behavior? Just be as happy as possible and let her take the first step. How long can someone keep this up?
> I could also tell her I want some time to myself and go stay at a hotel for a couple of days.
> ...


OK, so we pretty much accept that we can't change her, can't convince her to go to marriage counseling or do anything different. Believe it or not, this is a good first step.

You can't control her behaviors, her emotions or how she treats you. So what levers are left to pull?

The only one I see are the ones that are in your power to control. You've tried stuffing your emotions. That lasts about a year and makes you miserable. So what's left after that?

About all I can see is the ability to adjust your basic mindset. You give her too much power. Your moods are determined largely by how she treats you. If you're not in the doghouse, things are great. But you're in the doghouse now because you had the audacity to raise your voice. Shame on you (heavy sarcasm, there.)

You have to get to a point where you honestly believe that her opinion does not matter to you. It's called detachment. When you achieve detachment, it means that you're following your own gut, making your own decisions and letting the chips fall where they may.

Let's take an example from my life. I'm in grocery store. I like grated cheese on just about everything. I know we're out of grated cheese, but I also know wife looks down upon my grated cheese habit. So, I pass on buying the grated cheese because I don't want to incur the wrath associated with bringing home a big 'ol saddle bag of grated cheese. Essentially, I change behavior because I fear her response. That is a fail on my part.

Now, extend that behavior to any other activity in your day. How often everyday do you consider the repurcussions of her response before taking a specific action. Does this fear keep you from going to a ballgame, from buying something in the store, from going out for a beer with a buddy, from doing something that you would enjoy?

You do this long enough and you lose yourself. You don't know what really makes you happy anymore. You're just programmed to take the path of least resistance, choosing the course most likely to make her happy instead of making you happy.

Now, it is important to be considerate of our partners wishes and desires. But it becomes damaging when it becomes the sole focus of our life decision-making process.

This is a long way of saying: "Hey, she's scared of losing you. Fine. Not your problem. She's got to resolve that herself." Identify an activity that YOU want to do and invite her along. She wants to come along, fine. She doesn't, fine. Either way, you're spending time (for at least a bit) focusing on your interests & developing your own friendships. You build an interesting / engaging lifestyle and that helps you disconnect the emotional hose that you have attached to her right now. 

I'm not saying "be a jerk" to her. I'm saying that you need to live life in a more authentic way, focusing at least some of the time on satisfying your own desires and priorities. This process changes the center of gravity of the relationship. Right now, you sit in her sphere - at her emotional beck & call. The process described above shifts the balance a bit, putting the onus on her to step up if she wants to play a more active role in her husband's awesome life. 

This does not happen overnight. But, tying yourself up in knots because your wife is being a prissy little passive aggressive princess is no way to go. But you're not going to change her, you have to take the lead and demonstrate that her little games do not work on you anymore. She needs some new schtick. She sounds smart. She will adapt to the new you. And you'll be the better for it.

Bottom line, the way your wife is treating you is your fault, not hers. You've enabled this behavior for way too long. No way she will ever change unless you start to change yourself.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes,
> This makes a lot of sense. The immediate question is, how do I act in a NON passive aggressive way when my wife will not touch me and is angry with me?
> It's very difficult to be happy and pleasant when your wife is shiit testing you left and right.


And this is the essence of detachment. With detachment, you DON'T CARE about the tests or their implications. They may be annoying, but they have no impact on you or your outlook on life. They are a reflection of her, not a measure of your worth as a husband.

When you embrace this mindset, it's very easy to be happy and pleasant. You're focusing on the things you want to focus on. At some point, you'll be able to call her out on the tests and poke fun at just how immature they are. Her tests should be beneath you. You're the rock. You set the agenda. She can stomp her feet, be passive aggressive all she wants. You don't fear her. At best, you pity her and her lame attempts to control the situation through immature, outdated behaviors.


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## Marriedwithdogs (Jan 29, 2015)

Do you honestly believe she is testing you to see if you'll loose it, or Is that your perception. I hate when my husband blows up, and couldn't imagine pushing his buttons on "purpose"

I'll give you an example of how I think my husband plays games and tests me. I realize it's my perception and not really a test by him.

I don't like when my husband lightly touches me up and down my body with his finger nails. It tickles and I HATE being tickled. Everytime he does it, I move or ask him to stop. His response is "what I cant caress my wife"? "Why can't I touch you".?I tell him it's bc it tickles. Do you think he stops? No! He continues to do it ( at least twice a week)and I've even sat thru it for minutes hoping he would stop on his own ( bc I get tired of him accusing me of never letting him touch me, which is a lie). Eventually I can't take it anymore and tell him to stop, and it's rinse and repeat. At times I have thought he does it on purpose so he can accuse me of rejecting him! I guess he has selective amnesia, lol.
You are just more aware bc you have been working on keeping your anger in check.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MarriedTex, 
Thank you! I agree 100%. The only down side I see is that she might try to use my "detachment" against me. For example, she might cry and say I'm being an asss, when I'm not, I'm just having fun doing other things.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Marriedwithdogs said:


> Do you honestly believe she is testing you to see if you'll loose it, or Is that your perception. I hate when my husband blows up, and couldn't imagine pushing his buttons on "purpose"
> 
> I'll give you an example of how I think my husband plays games and tests me. I realize it's my perception and not really a test by him.
> 
> ...


This past week, I honestly think she's trying to get me to blowup. I told her I won't do it again, ever and she wants to test the waters "early" on to see the validity of my statement. Maybe she "needs" to test me so that she can trust me again, in this regard. 
I will tell you this. If she is angry at me for whatever reason, she goes straight into passive aggressive behavior which she KNOWS I detest.
Maybe she just can't help herself. I don't know.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> MarriedTex,
> Thank you! I agree 100%. The only down side I see is that she might try to use my "detachment" against me. For example, she might cry and say I'm being an asss, when I'm not, I'm just having fun doing other things.


Yes, true enough, tears may be another tool to get you back to toe her line. Nevertheless, you remain happy, pleasant and continue to give her the option to join in on your plans. Obviously, you must be aware enough to recognize imbalances. Letting her take care of the kids three straight weekends while you go to Vegas is not going to fly. You have to use good judgement and not be a jerk. That said, you have to make a call on what is a good, fair balance in the relationship. And right now, the scales need to tip far more your way than they have in the past. 

Sometimes, we get a wife who is self-centered and not interested in a relationship that meets in the middle. This could happen with you. Best you can say there, is that a more balanced lifestyle approach brings a quicker end to a relationship that was destined to die at some point, anyway.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

MarriedTex said:


> Yes, true enough, tears may be another tool to get you back to toe her line. Nevertheless, you remain happy, pleasant and continue to give her the option to join in on your plans. Obviously, you must be aware enough to recognize imbalances. Letting her take care of the kids three straight weekends while you go to Vegas is not going to fly. You have to use good judgement and not be a jerk. That said, you have to make a call on what is a good, fair balance in the relationship. And right now, the scales need to tip far more your way than they have in the past.
> 
> Sometimes, we get a wife who is self-centered and not interested in a relationship that meets in the middle. This could happen with you. Best you can say there, is that a more balanced lifestyle approach brings a quicker end to a relationship that was destined to die at some point, anyway.


UMP ask her if she will do MC.
If not it may be time to talk to a few lawyers living like this you are going to get ulcers and hypertension.
I am not being flippant about this either.
Sorry.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Ump, did you fix your fence that your daughter's friend took out yet? Just go do it, because it's your fence, and do so unbegrudgingly, keep the receipts for cost of materials and talk with the friend about how she can atone for the damage she caused. It was never your W or children's fault in the first place. It's just stuff, and if the friend refuses to face you, then calmly instill the consequences to her (report the collision, prohibit her from being on your property, etc.) Until she is ready to make reparations.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Right now, with you not knowing what will "work" on your wife, I see no harm in a temporary constructive detachment. During that time you can reassure her that you are just processing some things and creating some thinking space for yourself, but for now... I see a man who needs education in assertiveness and boundaries and communicating to his wife what behavior IS and IS NOT ok anymore. You need a voice in this relationship and right now it is seriously stifled to the point that by the time it DOES come out, it's a ruptured event that risks damage to all who are close by. Your emotions are feedback and when the pressure of them gets so high that you blow, its time to learn how to let pressure valves off along the way to take the starch out of that pressure. 

1. Learn boundaries and how to use them with books like Boundaries by Townsend, My Answer is No - if that's ok with you, When I Say No, I Feel Guilty.

2. Recognize behaviors that are unacceptable with resources like Emotional Blackmail, You Don't Have To Take It Anymore, any books on emotional abuse, the website Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support so that you can call them what they are when you are setting your boundaries

3. There are books on anger like The Dance of Anger, Beyond Anger (a guide for men).

4. Go to individual therapy for a while, get centered, gain your voice, then invite her in.

5. Learning all the above teaches you to speak constructively and assertively, sooner rather than later, thus ... these are your pressure valves. 

Hear me when I say this is NOT all your fault, therefore all of the work to repair this is NOT all on you  But you can start with you by your own choice and maybe she will decide to join your efforts later and partner with you in a new vision... but that vision has to be built first so she knows what she is signing onto.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

UMP

Refuse to play. She knows all of the steps for this dance and she is leading you. Tired of doing the UMP2 tango? Then stop. When she jigs, don't zag. You don't have to stay a step ahead or say the right things. See how confused and crazy it makes you?

My impression is that you are too emotionally upset at present. You need to sit this dance out, have a Corona and cool off. Success goes to a man with a plan and the strength to carry through. What is your plan? How will you implement it? Hover didn't ask the mighty Colorado where it wanted to go he made it go where it would do the most good. 

You wife sounds like a good lady, challenging but good. She has to be, she recognized a good man and did not give up on him because he was difficult. She is not giving up on you now however, she is beating you up a bit. I don't get the impression that she cannot express herself with you or that you two are inhibited in your communication. You are reactive and she knows you too well. She is not in general a PA person, is she? 

Your wife uses PA tactics when she wants to be indirect. When you calm down, resolve to be direct when you discuss problems with your wife. No matter how difficult it is to hear, let her say what she wants without trying to get the conflict over with ASAP. Learn to do that, you will be much happier. Believe me, she does not want you to have instant solutions. 

Have one after you let her talk and is then ready to consider your solution. This may not follow the advised alpha script but it may work. I never wrote a book on how to be an alpha anything but I am married and a woman.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Well, 
This has been the longest I've endured my wifes passive aggressive behavior without caving. I'm doing a good job being calm and unaffected. For some reason, I'm starting to feel strong. I think it has much to do with the help from all of you on this thread. I keep telling myself that this is just a wimpy manipulation tool that she is using for whatever reason. I'm starting to feel liberated!

The problem is "sex"'." We usually average every 4 days or so and I can bet you my bottom dollar she figures I'm going to cave and beg for sex to end her PA. At this point, she acts like nothing is wrong, being very pleasant, but fake, if you get my drift. She can keep a beautiful passive aggressive stance, without me being able to call her out on it. I'm afraid she can keep this up indefinitely and without sex. She will not touch me or even sit close to me. If she does sit next to me, she moves away juuust enough to let me know she is mad, but is still next to me. She has this down to a science.

I'm starting to detach and do some things in the evening. Last night she jokingly asked me to go to my daughters lacross meeting tonight (which she knows I hate to do). I replied "sure, I'll drop her off, go work out, eat out and go to the meeting and pick her up." She was shocked and even this morning asked if I'm "really going to do this."

Anyway, all the advice on here is HELPING me a great deal. I am getting calmer rather than more upset (which is the norm and what she is counting on)

Big question: As time goes on, what to do about sex? Do I initiate, do I not?? Sex ends up being the holy grail carrot. She knows I want it and will use it as the "weapon of mass destruction" of her passive aggressive strategy.

BTW: She is a stay at home mom and has a BA in Psychology.

Edit: She will not call me all day UNLESS she either needs money or needs me to do something. The phone call starts out really nice and I think she's out of her PA mood and then sure enough, money or needs me to do something.
Early on when this first started over a week ago, after I apologized twice, I tried to lay it all out and even told her, "if you don't love me anymore because of how I got upset, please tell me now so I can start dealing with this new reality." She responded by telling me, "just because I'm upset does not mean I stopped loving you, just let me be upset." Then follows a week of PA that has not stopped.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

DONT CAVE FOR SEX. Are yu willing to be patient and uncomfortable now for a future that is better?

All your hard work to this point will be lost if you initiate knowing what her response will be. This is a good time to exert control for the sake of your self-respect. Show her that you are not a lap dog panting for a treat. Sex is not your reward for being a compliment boy or a reward. It's part of the total relationship. 

If she does not want to have sex then she should say so. She is being indirect therefore PA. This is where your plan comes in. How do you handle passive aggressive behavior? Don't play. She wants to draw you into begging for sex? Don't do it. Stay busy, don't show her stress or anger. Come here and vent. 

Think of what will happen if you cave. The PA approach works on you, so why should she use more adaptive behaviors? Review everything that you do for her. Are you giving more than you get? If so, adjust your giving to match hers. 

Remain pleasant but constant in how yu want to be treated. When you are different she will notice and the dynamic will change. If you can't do it this time don't worry. You are aware of what you need to do and whenever you are ready do it. It will work.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Catherine602 said:


> DONT CAVE FOR SEX. Are yu willing to be patient and uncomfortable now for a future that is better?
> 
> All your hard work to this point will be lost if you initiate knowing what her response will be. This is a good time to exert control for the sake of your self-respect. Show her that you are not a lap dog panting for a treat. Sex is not your reward for being a compliment boy or a reward. It's part of the total relationship.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
As the days go by, (she is on her period now) should I initiate sex or not? If I know her well, and I think I do, if I do not initiate, she could go on for weeks passive aggressive and not EVER initiate sex. I'm doing everything you say, except I don't know what to do if she is still PA and I'm ready for sex.
Initiate?
Don't initiate?
How long do I go with no sex? Until she begs me? That could take a month or two, I think. (hell, it could be never, yes, she's that strong)

P.S. We usually have sex on average every 4 days or so. It's been 4 days today, but as I said, she's on her period for another day or two.

Edit: Do I even try to touch her? At the moment, she will not touch me at all. Do I try to kiss her goodbye in the morning?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Stop making your sex life transactional. (this may be a big change and take a long time, and will take a lot of work). I think in time and with some detachment, this will become a more natural approach. Start by not counting days between sessions though - it's not the number that makes any difference, it's about the quality of the pleasure you get from loving your spouse (if it were simply quantitative, you could easily take matters into your own hands).


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

don't initiate until you feel her love for you. until she feels it from you maybe stop sex for a while until you get things straightened out.
not in a vindictive way but in a we need to reconnect way. go out on some dates spend some time together just because. one of two thing will happen you will either reconnect and things will get on track and sex will be like it was or better. Or you might realize that you have grown apart maybe too far apart and well $hit happens time to think about parting ways.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> Stop making your sex life transactional. (this may be a big change and take a long time, and will take a lot of work). I think in time and with some detachment, this will become a more natural approach. Start by not counting days between sessions though - it's not the number that makes any difference, it's about the quality of the pleasure you get from loving your spouse (if it were simply quantitative, you could easily take matters into your own hands).


I hate to say this, but this thread has been a BIG eye opener for me. I realize that I've been living this way for 23 years. I have a bad heart and I don't know how much more of this I can take. It's not that I'm angry anymore, I'm just tired and spent. It's SO painful for me to live with a passive aggressive spouse. I now realize my outbursts were my naïve way of dealing with this behavior. It's so bad that my blood pressure goes through the roof and I need medication to calm myself down. Again, thank you everyone for opening up my eyes. Knowledge is power, and I believe that power will enable me to never get angry about this again. However, I might be leaving soon, because if I don't give in, I don't think she will stop PA. At least in 23 years, she never has. I've always given in.

So in your opinion, I should not initiate sex until she does?
That may literally never happen. I'm serious here.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

You are allowing her to get leverage on you....

Sex is leverage.. 

Money is leverage..

Her "wimpy" passive aggressive moves are designed with not a "whatever" purpose but control. It's designed to get you to respond to her control. Baiting you to respond, so she can hit you with a one two punch and keep the upper hand. It is about keeping power... therefore the skill needed here is learning to recognize leverage and choose to deleverage yourself, ESPECIALLY not taking the bait. Which means... stop caring about getting sex from her. If she offers it, great, by God take it... if she doesn't ... oh well... and if she asks why the change just flat out tell her... you have lost interest in sex if it has strings (leverage) attached to it. And yes, this will take great intention and patience on your part.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> don't initiate until you feel her love for you. until she feels it from you maybe stop sex for a while until you get things straightened out.
> not in a vindictive way but in a we need to reconnect way. go out on some dates spend some time together just because. one of two thing will happen you will either reconnect and things will get on track and sex will be like it was or better. Or you might realize that you have grown apart maybe too far apart and well $hit happens time to think about parting ways.


It's hard to go on dates when your wife will not even touch you, AT ALL, nothing.

In fact, because I wanted to stop starfish sex a couple years ago, I limited my touch and my constant "I love you's" and the sex DID get much better. However, she has never been very affectionate and rarely if ever initiated on her own, regardless.
I fear at this point, if I don't ask "what's wrong" and cave to her PA stance, she might never give up.
In fact, I have never in my life met someone as stubborn as my wife and I have told her so.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree you should calm down about sex. I also think you should initiate if you sense that she is at all open. If she refuses you, what will you do? How will you feel? 

That is the hard part and part of changing the dynamic. Your reaction to rejection has to transform. An refusal to an invitation to something good is cutting off her own enjoyment. Too bad her. 

Don't show anger or frustration. Take it all in stride. Not initiating would be playing in to an unhealthy interaction. It's normal to want to have sex with your wife so, be normal.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> You are allowing her to get leverage on you....
> 
> Sex is leverage..
> 
> ...


I agree, but you don't know how strong my wife is. She is liable to take it all the way to divorce, just to get "the upper hand."
Yes, she is that stubborn. 
AND, I get no sex..............indefinitely.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> It's hard to go on dates when your wife will not even touch you, AT ALL, nothing.
> 
> In fact, because I wanted to stop starfish sex a couple years ago, I limited my touch and my constant "I love you's" and the sex DID get much better. However, she has never been very affectionate and rarely if ever initiated on her own, regardless.
> I fear at this point, if I don't ask "what's wrong" and cave to her PA stance, she might never give up.
> In fact, I have never in my life met someone as stuborn as my wife and I have told her so.


Was it always like this?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> I agree, but you don't know how strong my wife is. She is liable to take it all the way to divorce, just to get "the upper hand."
> Yes, she is that stubborn.
> AND, I get no sex..............indefinitely.


She has an Achilles heel somewhere... you need to find it.

Be gracious, be loving... but you do need to understand where the flip switch (weakness) is to her controlling ways, otherwise you are just her puppet... scleper... cook, babysitter... and masturbation tool and I'm hearing you don't want that.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

UMP said:


> Thank you!
> As the days go by, (she is on her period now) should I initiate sex or not? If I know her well, and I think I do, if I do not initiate, she could go on for weeks passive aggressive and not EVER initiate sex. I'm doing everything you say, except I don't know what to do if she is still PA and I'm ready for sex.
> Initiate?
> Don't initiate?
> ...


I know it would be hard to not have sex, but stay strong, she's waiting for you to cave in. Since you two aren't barely talking, touching, I find it unusual why you would want to have sex, she clearly doesn't? When my wife ignores me, not cold shoulder, just the usual "granddaughter is my life", the last thing on my mind is sex, I'm fighting resentment. I'm not saying resentment, but how does her being mad, no bonding time, basically being ignored, turn into "I'm ready for sex"? Maybe it's just me? I'm different from most guys though, my "horniness" comes from feeling close and never from needing physical release. If we're not close, I can go months and I have.
I would begin small doses of affection and a kiss goodbye and see how she reacts?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> She has an Achilles heel somewhere... you need to find it.
> 
> Be gracious, be loving... but you do need to understand where the flip switch (weakness) is to her controlling ways, otherwise you are just her puppet... scleper... cook, babysitter... and masturbation tool and I'm hearing you don't want that.


And to be honest... what I'm hearing is your self respect is growing because you are starting to notice her lack of respect/empathy for you. This is good...


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

UMP said:


> I hate to say this, but this thread has been a BIG eye opener for me. I realize that I've been living this way for 23 years. I have a bad heart and I don't know how much more of this I can take. It's not that I'm angry anymore, I'm just tired and spent. It's SO painful for me to live with a passive aggressive spouse. I now realize my outbursts were my naïve way of dealing with this behavior. It's so bad that my blood pressure goes through the roof and I need medication to calm myself down. Again, thank you everyone for opening up my eyes. Knowledge is power, and I believe that power will enable me to never get angry about this again. However, I might be leaving soon, because if I don't give in, I don't think she will stop PA. At least in 23 years, she never has. I've always given in.
> 
> So in your opinion, I should not initiate sex until she does?
> That may literally never happen. I'm serious here.


I am very happy to see that you are introspecting, but be patient my friend - now is not the time to be making decisions about "leaving soon". That too would be either a passive aggressive approach to getting her to change or else it would be giving up before even trying to find the real solution to dealing with conflict in your relationship.

And what do you mean by "give in"? how exactly would you be "giving in" you've apologised profusely and since your last outburst have tried to communicate concisely and calmy - what exactly do you think she is trying to angle at? Break you into submission? and if so, what would that look like to her? You think she wants you to explode again so that she can retain the moral high ground where she is most comfortable?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> It's hard to go on dates when your wife will not even touch you, AT ALL, nothing.
> 
> In fact, because I wanted to stop starfish sex a couple years ago, I limited my touch and my constant "I love you's" and the sex DID get much better. However, she has never been very affectionate and rarely if ever initiated on her own, regardless.
> I fear at this point, if I don't ask "what's wrong" and cave to her PA stance, she might never give up.
> In fact, I have never in my life met someone as stubborn as my wife and I have told her so.


so now what do you love about her again?

I'm not being an a$$ really think about it don't answer me answer yourself. is this what you want to fight the rest of your marriage. is this how you thought a marriage should look like?


tough question for sure but I believe at some point everybody man and woman has to ask these questions. and only you can answer them and then act on the answers 

good luck signing off this thread because I feel this is what needs done. and until you face this nothing will change the rest is just head games be more alpha, don't let her passive aggressive way work on you bla bla bla not that it ain't true but how much of this crap can you take before you say is it worth it. I don't know about anybody else but my give a damn is broken in regards to this type of dynamics I would rather live under a bridge in an old refrigerator box eating cat food that spend the rest of my life dealing with someone who thinks playing games to get their way is how you treat your husband or wife!


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

UMP said:


> I agree, but you don't know how strong my wife is. She is liable to take it all the way to divorce, just to get "the upper hand."
> Yes, she is that stubborn.
> AND, I get no sex..............indefinitely.


You have asked her "what's wrong" on several occasions and you are not getting the straight answer from her mouth, so stop asking 1) because you already know what's wrong (she just needs to feel in control of that which she has no control of) and 2) because it's showing your weakness. She will keep having you constantly asking "what's wrong" and that would be her gage to know everything is in place the way she wants it.

Hitting your head on the wall repeatedly and expecting different results the next time you hit your head on the wall.

If she is determined to take it all the way to divorce, then let her take it there - it's all on her and would be a unilateral decision on her part. The beginning of divorce proceedings take time and there is no reason you can't wait it out. Whether she is bluffing or not, sometimes you have to show your hand in order to see hers.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Was it always like this?


Early on, in the relationship, she would touch me all the time and initiate sex all the time. It slowed down when we had kids and then slowly but surely, hardly anything.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> Early on, in the relationship, she would touch me all the time and initiate sex all the time. It slowed down when we had kids and then slowly but surely, hardly anything.


That means it can be reversed.

There is probably resentment fueling the control tactics

And ... if someone knew came along... she would be all over them in a new relationship.

Thus... there is hope that YOU can be that someone... you just have to dig through the rubble, but it will take some strategy, and patience.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> She has an Achilles heel somewhere... you need to find it.
> 
> Be gracious, be loving... but you do need to understand where the flip switch (weakness) is to her controlling ways, otherwise you are just her puppet... scleper... cook, babysitter... and masturbation tool and I'm hearing you don't want that.


I wish I knew. She is pretty much bullet proof. The ONLY thing she has really EVER been adamant about is the possibility of my cheating. She has always told me over and over and over again, "you can do anything you want to, but don't ever cheat on me or I will leave you."
Her Achilles heel is another woman, which I won't do.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She's not bullet proof... 

Only feels like it to you.

I would never advocate another woman to you as a strategy... that's cruel.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Can I share something with you?


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> And what do you mean by "give in"? how exactly would you be "giving in" you've apologised profusely and since your last outburst have tried to communicate concisely and calmy - what exactly do you think she is trying to angle at? Break you into submission? and if so, what would that look like to her? You think she wants you to explode again so that she can retain the moral high ground where she is most comfortable?


Great question.
Yes, she would love me to blow up again. Why? I'm not so sure.

Yes, it seems like she wants to "break" me.

The other side of my brain wants to think that she actually NEEDS me to stand up to her so that she can be attracted to me. I think it may be her way of shiit testing me. However, I have failed this test for 23 years. Not any more. Better late than never, I guess.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> so now what do you love about her again?
> 
> I'm not being an a$$ really think about it don't answer me answer yourself. is this what you want to fight the rest of your marriage. is this how you thought a marriage should look like?


That is a fair question. It would be like asking why I love my beagle. I was driving home one day and saw this emaciated, frightened, beaten dog in a field. I stopped and she let me come to her. You could tell she had been starved and beaten for years. I took her in, basket case and all. It took a year for her just to enter our home. She is dirty, smelly, will pee anywhere, cannot learn anything and is still petrified by ANY noise. At first my family did not want her and I paid $100.00 to put her in a no kill pound. Later that same day, I called the pound and said I want her back. I have never loved a dog that much in my life and probably never will again.
I use this strange analogy because I believe "love" is not something that I can turn on or off. It just happens. It was like that with my wife too. We met on a blind date and within minutes, I fell in love with her.

However, this realization of what I have been going through for 23 years has hit me pretty hard and has got me to thinking that maybe my wife does not really love me back. Maybe it's all a game to her to keep me in line, pay the bills and have me shut up.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

She is not bullet proof. You think she is and treat her as if she is. If you were independent and sure you will get what you need, she would not be in charge. 

You are not at her mercy. You are hard to replace as is she. You realize it, she does not. Unfortunately, you need to keep leaving as a last resort in some relationships. With that you will be more assured in your ability to fix this.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Can I share something with you?


Please do!


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## drnorman (Feb 24, 2015)

Its unfortunate to hear about the giant fall. But you yourself now are the one to redeem yourself back on track.

Firstly, calmly face your wife promising her you are doing your best to keep it under control, and that you are confident you will be on top of the situation soon.

Then avoid condemning self, and start working on it - you will be there soon.

Check some cool stuff on Info Market BluePrint – Get Your Business BluePrint & Layouts Here!


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Lon said:


> If she is determined to take it all the way to divorce, then let her take it there - it's all on her and would be a unilateral decision on her part. The beginning of divorce proceedings take time and there is no reason you can't wait it out. Whether she is bluffing or not, sometimes you have to show your hand in order to see hers.


Yes, she is that tuff. The crazy part is that I'm starting not to care, which is REALLY different for me. I guess that's a start.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

UMP said:


> Please do!


Over the years you trained her to treat you the way she does.

You are expected to keep quiet and not make waves. Even your kids dismiss you. 

I hear someone who almost feels as low as the rug by the back door.

Disconnected, alone, voiceless.

Resonate?

And it is ok to tell me I am wrong....


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

UMP said:


> Yes, she is that tuff. The crazy part is that I'm starting not to care, which is REALLY different for me. I guess that's a start.


That is the saddest part of acceptance, when you quit caring if it rains or snows. I've gone so long without quality time, that I'm finding I don't really crave it anymore. I actually find the little bit that is offered as insulting, like throwing a dog leftover table scraps.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Over the years you trained her to treat you the way she does.
> 
> You are expected to keep quiet and not make waves. Even your kids dismiss you.
> 
> ...


Yeah, pretty much. 

Interestingly, the only thing I always insisted on was sex. A couple years ago, the sex got so bad,(starfish) that I started searching on how to fix it. I was on mmsl for a couple years, then here. I made myself more attractive, lost weight, etc. The sex did get better, but last Friday it was so bad,(3 days after I got upset because of the destroyed fence) it was almost as if she was hating me with her vagina. I never understood that term until last week. The one thing that really blew my mind and made me look a little deeper into the situation was during sex, she compared our lifelike dildo to my hard penis, exclaiming how much "longer and thicker" it was to my real one, while she is giving me a BJ, putting it right up against my hard on. I know I am not small at 7". I could not believe someone could be so cruel, much less during sex. At that moment, I asked myself why in the world would she do such a thing and I realized that she wanted me to blow up again. Passive aggressive, even during sex. I even went to kiss her during sex and she turned her head away, but then back and reluctantly kissed. BAD experience. I did not get upset, just introspective, which lead to this thread.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

woundedwarrior said:


> That is the saddest part of acceptance, when you quit caring if it rains or snows. I've gone so long without quality time, that I'm finding I don't really crave it anymore. I actually find the little bit that is offered as insulting, like throwing a dog leftover table scraps.


Healthy detachment is not the same as not caring. But tolerating bad sex, and lack of having relationship needs not even being attempted to be met is not acceptable. I'm sure Ump cares deeply about good sex with his W, nobody is suggesting to give up hope of having that. Just simply having to work through this challenge to where a good sex life with his W is a possibility again. When he truly stops caring, that is when it becomes a big problem.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> Yes, it seems like she wants to "break" me.
> 
> 
> 
> The other side of my brain wants to think that she actually NEEDS me to stand up to her so that she can be attracted to me. I think it may be her way of shiit testing me. However, I have failed this test for 23 years. Not any more. Better late than never, I guess.


that's a "romantic" view of the woman that tests he's beloved one to ensure his fitness. It ain't the case. This ain't He!! Week in Special Forces Training... 

Most people act like that, because, DUH, THEY ARE LIKE THAT. Or THEY BECOME LIKE THAT. 

If you had "failed" the "test" she would have bailed out or given up, ummm, 22 years ago.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> that's a "romantic" view of the woman that tests he's beloved one to ensure his fitness. It ain't the case. This ain't He!! Week in Special Forces Training...
> 
> Most people act like that, because, DUH, THEY ARE LIKE THAT. Or THEY BECOME LIKE THAT.
> 
> If you had "failed" the "test" she would have bailed out or given up, ummm, 22 years ago.


Ok. I see your point.
How would you suggest I end the behavior? I don't believe she was like this when we married so it has been acquired over time, is my guess.

Edit: Now that I think about it, when we were dating early on, I noticed she did not clean her vag very well. I told her nicely and kindly, because I love eating dinner down there and she got VERY quiet and upset for days. Maybe she has always been this way.
Also, my mother is the queen of passive aggressive behavior. Perhaps I thought all women were supposed to be like this, kind of par for the course, if you will.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, she is that tuff. The crazy part is that I'm starting not to care, which is REALLY different for me. I guess that's a start.


This is the beginning of detachment. Mind over matter. If you don't mind how she acts, it doesn't matter.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

My H and I just went through changes that DRASTICALLY changed our dynamics. The good thing is you guys are not in infidelity. We did go through that and are doing really well. Last year this time and the year before that we were at each other's throats. You would not believe we are even the same couple today. Our son went from being afraid to go home because of my H, to now excited when he walks in the door and calls him funny and sweet  So I would love to share with you some of the shifts that have happened if you feel they may help. My H had anger management issues too. 

I may be a bit in and out since I had a medical emergency with one of my horses within the last hour and will be headed back out there to meet the vet in a couple of hours.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

UMP, did you get an appointment with a therapist yet?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> Ok. I see your point.
> 
> How would you suggest I end the behavior? I don't believe she was like this when we married so it has been acquired over time, is my guess.



You can't end it. Some people grow into this role as time goes by. It's a basic engrained behavior. They're projecting their own insecurities onto you. 

You deal with it, or you walk, or she walks. 

Some people, esp toxic prone people, feed off the conflict. The more the better. Some people here see it as sh!t tests done on purpose. Nope. I know enough about psych tests to know that the value of a test is in the information it provides, and if the same experiment is repeated time and time again it stops being an experiment (or sh!t test) and becomes a behavior.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Woah woah woah.... How did we get from where this thread started to his wife now having a personality disorder? She's passive aggressive, of course she is! How else does someone cope with a spouse with explosive behavior? They are powerless to fully confront what's bothering them in case the anger comes out. They can't just let him have it, like most women would, in case he explodes. So they get back in these snide and sneaky ways.

The entire marriage has produced very unhealthy coping strategies for both ump and his wife. He explodes, she gets snarky nice, he kisses ass for a few weeks because she can't throw insults at him like any other woman would and have it out and over with. "You big ass! How dare you yell at the kids like that! Jerk!" No instead she has to be sly and subtle in showing her anger. It's been her only powerful communication technique. And it's seriously screwed up! 

The one plays into the other.

Ump, get your ass into therapy. Once there, get your wife into therapy. Vent here all you want, but you need therapy and so does your wife!

And you're upset about getting laid? Your entire marriage has been one unhealthy unproductive behavior feeding off the other. You've got MUCH bigger fish to fry bud. Get reacquainted with your hand and get healthy. Then worry about sex.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Who are you saying is saying she has a personality disorder?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It does not matter whether the label "disorder" is used. As Anon very wisely said, the two feed on each other. Labeling who is who is an academic exercise.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> Woah woah woah.... How did we get from where this thread started to his wife now having a personality disorder? She's passive aggressive, of course she is! How else does someone cope with a spouse with explosive behavior? They are powerless to fully confront what's bothering them in case the anger comes out. They can't just let him have it, like most women would, in case he explodes. So they get back in these snide and sneaky ways.
> 
> The entire marriage has produced very unhealthy coping strategies for both ump and his wife. He explodes, she gets snarky nice, he kisses ass for a few weeks because she can't throw insults at him like any other woman would and have it out and over with. "You big ass! How dare you yell at the kids like that! Jerk!" No instead she has to be sly and subtle in showing her anger. It's been her only powerful communication technique. And it's seriously screwed up!
> 
> ...


Ding ding ding ding! :iagree:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> She is not bullet proof. You think she is and treat her as if she is. If you were independent and sure you will get what you need, she would not be in charge.
> 
> You are not at her mercy. You are hard to replace as is she. You realize it, she does not. Unfortunately, you need to keep leaving as a last resort in some relationships. With that you will be more assured in your ability to fix this.


Sorry AMP, I'm wrong. Scratch this. I failed to consider the years of your outbursts. Very destructive. The effects are far reaching and sometimes insidious. You have worked on change and experienced some success but you need to dig deeper. Consider the number of years your wife stuck with you through the bad years. Now look at the number of years you have been working on change. 

Anon is on point.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Adore you Catherine! You are usually more on point than me...and a lot nicer too!


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Who are you saying is saying she has a personality disorder?


UMP, I want to make sure you know the link I provided for personality support was not for the purpose of suggesting your wife has a personality disorder. It was for the purpose of providing a link to behavioral definitions that tend to help with boundary work. Defining a behavior makes it easier to use boundaries effectively.


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