# Nice - With Expectations? Ticket to Emotional Hell



## Conrad

From the crib, we're taught to be nice. Our parents rewarded us with praise for being nice. And we start to believe that if we’re nice enough, work hard enough that good things will come our way. We learned to sacrifice our own needs for those of our wives.

But how much is enough? Do we know? We become so focused on ‘nice’ that we fail to notice that we aren’t getting much if anything in return. Many men replace the things, which made them interesting and unique with an overall mission to "keep her happy."

We lose ourselves in the process refusing to give up on the idea that *if only SHE were happy she’d meet my needs*. 

If you read the posts here... if you talk to your friends, you will realize that *nothing could be further from the truth*. Yet, that doesn’t stop us from trying day after day year after year being nice waiting…just waiting for her to wake up and see how great we are and give back.

If you recognize yourself here then the next key question is... what can you do to get out of this hole you've dug for yourself. 

She now expects you to meet her every request with little or no resistance. How can you tell the difference between what you "should do" and what is too much?

It's actually quite easy just ask yourself, "Am I ok doing this if I get nothing in return" 

Yes, no great opportunity to knock boots, no appreciation, no nothing. Would you do this if you knew you would not get anything back - if there was no glorious happy ending associated with your sacrifice?

If the answer is no, then YOUR answer should be no.

If the only way to be "nice" in a given situation is to do it with expectations of some return, do not do it.

Not today.

Not tomorrow.

Not ever.

If you follow this guideline, you'll find yourself feeling much much better in a very short amount of time. What I've also found is that my wife's attraction to me has skyrocketed with the implementation of this simple principle.


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## frustr8dhubby

I am sure this is directed at me.

Here is my take on it and I have gone 'round and 'round with the likes of you, MEM, Athol and others.

I am the "nice guy" writ large. The difference (I hope) being that I don't do it with an expectation of something in return. Whether it is for my wife, my friends, even strangers if I am capable. It is imprinted in my DNA. Am I ever going to be mega-successful? Probably not because I usually concern myself more with others than myself.

In fact, one of my closest guy friends always says WWBD (What Would Barry Do). It pisses me off because I think he mocks me but it is who I am, like it or not. Maybe I am warped, maybe I am stupid, but I like being the way I am.

Are there times when I get frustrated that often my deeds aren't reciprocated? Sure, I am also human. However, I also know human nature and most people are takers, not givers.

Maybe this doesn't mean a hill of beans but sometimes I get damn tired of the "nice guys" getting berated. And if that means I am unattractive to my wife, so be it, I will find someone that does like that part of me.


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## Conrad

That last line is intriguing.

What do you plan to do?


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## frustr8dhubby

Well my intention was to leave the house after the new year. There is just NO way to do that financially right now so I am probably going to move out of the bedroom for now...


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## Toffer

Conrad,

While I do things out of love for my wife, I do not disagree with your post (BTW, did you or someone else post something like this before? It sounds so familar)

I have been doing less things for her, mostly on the emotional side of the relationship because all the nice touches, kisses and hugs left me feeling unfulfilled in the physical side of the relationship (yes, SEX).

Not doing these things and doing more for myself (going out with friends (without my wife) and going fishing for example have helped me feel a bit better about myself after being rejected so many times in the course of our 26 year marriage

Frustr8ed, I don't think it was directed at you. I think it was directed at ALL of us who are in similar situations.

Being a nice guy is fine up to the point that you're taken advantage of. I've had it happen to me. I was always there for everyone, using my truck to help people move, pick-up large items and just generally helping them out. The few times in the past that I've needed help from others, no one was available with the exception of very few. It was that lesson that taught me that some are givers and some solely takers. Don't get me wrong, if a taker needed a pint of blood, I'd be there!


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## Conrad

Toffer,

There's a longer version of this elsewhere in the forum.

Yet, the insight for this comes largely from AFEH's favorite guy - DeMello. There are 3 ways to give pleasure.

1) Please yourself (sometimes easier said than done) - this makes you feel good about you

2) Please another in a way that makes you feel good about yourself. This may be charity or giving someone a hand.

3) Please another in a way that makes you feel BAD about you.

Turn #3 over in your head for awhile. When your wife asks you to do something that would make you feel like a doormat - UNLESS you get a big payback in appreciation, sex, love, etc. - you are on dangerous ground.

If that payback does not materialize, you are inviting your shadow side into your relationship.

That won't go well.

Much better to have your wife experience the small disappointment of a "I'm not ok with this" on a particular issue than the big disappointment of, "You're an ungrateful abusive b*tch!" after years of #3 situations.


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## frustr8dhubby

Toffer,

I hear what you are saying but again the logic is backwards to me. Would I stop doing something for myself to help someone else? (No, unless it was urgent). However, if I stop doing things for others because I know I am not getting a return, then why would I do them in the first place? I'm not even sure that makes sense.

I work in IT. It is fundamentally a thankless job. Granted, my "reward" is my paycheck but from a purely "feel good about what I do" perspective, it is a zero sum game. No one thanks you that they receive their e-mail all day every day or that the servers don't crash, or that you just saved them hundreds of man hours, etc, etc. When do they come to you? When there is a "problem".

Conrad,

Can you give me an example of #3? I'm struggling understanding what I would do that would make me feel "bad" about me??


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## Acorn

I love this topic.

Earlier in my marriage, I remember that my wife used to act very uncomfortable to the point of almost anger if I was flirty at times she thought was inappropriate. Of course, as the marriage went on, the inappropriate times increased exponentially to the point where I stopped all flirty talk just to please her. Big time #3 - Made her real happy, but I hated it. I wasn't being me.

Now we are separated, but we are in touch still and the other night I went out to dinner with my wife and made a few flirty comments. Made me feel real good, and I can't help but think that they were playful and complimentary enough to make her feel good too. At least #1, maybe I got to #2. But it felt SO MUCH BETTER. 

I'm going to be me, and my wife can take it or leave it. Heck, we are separated now, so she can just say no to the dinner offer if she doesn't want a little flirting.

Learning so many lessons almost daily - wish I could have one giant do over on my marriage.


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## Deejo

frustr8dhubby said:


> Can you give me an example of #3? I'm struggling understanding what I would do that would make me feel "bad" about me??


This is an egregious example, but it hits on the correct dynamic, I think.

You have no plans that you are aware of for the upcoming weekend. Your buddy asks you to go fishing on Saturday. You say yes, and are excited about it.

Friday evening, you tell your wife that you are going fishing.

Your wife looks at you and tells you that she made plans for all of you to visit her mother/friend/sister/brother ... whatever.

You know she is going to be pissed if you don't go. You think if you do go, you are 'pleasing' her by being accommodating to her needs, and setting aside yours. You call your buddy and cancel, despite the fact that you had made plans with him first, and your spouse did not inform you of her intentions. You dutifully attend, despite the fact you wanted, and had planned to go fishing.

In a nutshell, you consistently think there will be 'bad' outcomes by making choices that you perceive will upset your spouse ... regardless of how insignificant they are.

Another bizarre example. This one was actually courtesy of my family.
When my ex and I had our son, and would visit with our infant son, she would always insist on my presence when changing the baby. I would be engaged with my family, and she would say something like, "He needs to be changed, and I need your help." And I just dutifully did it. And my parents and family were always shocked. And finally my mother asked, "Why exactly, does she need you with her to change a diaper?" I wasn't even aware of the dynamic until it was pointed out to me.

And damned if I could come up with a reasonable answer other than I knew she would be ticked off If I said, "I'm in the middle of a conversation, you'll be fine."

It was a control and acknowledgement thing ... it had nothing to do with dirty diapers. But ... in a very small way, it contributed to the overall dynamic that starts defining that one partners needs are more important than the others.


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## Conrad

Acorn,

Armed with this insight, is your wife someone you would choose to date?





Acorn said:


> I love this topic.
> 
> Earlier in my marriage, I remember that my wife used to act very uncomfortable to the point of almost anger if I was flirty at times she thought was inappropriate. Of course, as the marriage went on, the inappropriate times increased exponentially to the point where I stopped all flirty talk just to please her. Big time #3 - Made her real happy, but I hated it. I wasn't being me.
> 
> Now we are separated, but we are in touch still and the other night I went out to dinner with my wife and made a few flirty comments. Made me feel real good, and I can't help but think that they were playful and complimentary enough to make her feel good too. At least #1, maybe I got to #2. But it felt SO MUCH BETTER.
> 
> I'm going to be me, and my wife can take it or leave it. Heck, we are separated now, so she can just say no to the dinner offer if she doesn't want a little flirting.
> 
> Learning so many lessons almost daily - wish I could have one giant do over on my marriage.


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## frustr8dhubby

Deejo,

Ahh, now that makes sense. Hmm, thinking about it I am probably unconsciously guilty of some of those...


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## Acorn

Conrad said:


> Acorn,
> 
> Armed with this insight, is your wife someone you would choose to date?


I will spend time with her because I care about her and do enjoy her company in some ways.

I don't think it could ever be more than that without some change on her end. Which I can't expect. So, I will occasionally go out to dinner, and wonder what effect changes on my end may have on her.


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## Conrad

Acorn said:


> I will spend time with her because I care about her and do enjoy her company in some ways.
> 
> I don't think it could ever be more than that without some change on her end. Which I can't expect. So, I will occasionally go out to dinner, and wonder what effect changes on my end may have on her.


So, the answer is if you met someone EXACTLY like her at this point in your life, you would pass.


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## Acorn

Conrad said:


> So, the answer is if you met someone EXACTLY like her at this point in your life, you would pass.


Yes, absolutely.


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## Conrad

Acorn said:


> Yes, absolutely.


For all the talk of 180's and do this and do that, I guarantee those that do not learn the lessons ABOUT THEMSELVES are doomed to repeat relationship mistakes.

The thing I fear for Frustr8ted Hubby is he's going to walk WITHOUT ever getting any practice at setting boundaries for his wife. This maximizes the chance that when he gets into his next relationship, he'll repeat the same mistakes.

His wife was sent to him for him to learn this lesson.


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## Mavash.

This dynamic applies to women who are too nice too - I should know I was once one of them.

My logic was if I was pretty enough, thin enough, cooked enough, kept the house clean enough, fit enough, NICE enough that my husband would miraculously be the passionate, emotionally available man I wanted.

Want to know what I got for my trouble? Resentment. And my needs still went UNMET. Emotional hell indeed.

So I stopped. I stopped doing anything that I didn't want to do if I knew I'd get nothing in return for it. It was a process but I reclaimed myself and somewhere along the way I began to change the dynamic between my husband and I. No more ass kissing with me getting nothing in return but a paycheck (yes gentlemen my husband thought his hard earned money should be enough for me).

My story is long and I have since fixed this but it started when yes I quit being 'nice' with expectations and reclaimed my sense of self.


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## frustr8dhubby

This is what I am still not seeing. I am not "nice" in order to get reciprocated (at least not consciously).

I don't clean the table after dinner hoping she will have sex with me. I clean it because she spent the time preparing it, the least I can do is help clean up. I don't do home improvement projects to get laid, I do them because A) I enjoy doing it and B) I like giving her the home she wants.

So I am not sure where I am "losing myself" in there..?? Are there some things I would like to be doing for myself that I am not currently? Sure. But I also have little time/money for them right now so hopefully if we are still together that will change.

For example. I really want to get riding a motorcycle again. She and I were actually going to ride together but then baby number 1 came and we decided against it. Once we have some extra money I will likely pursue it again. Hopefully she will still be interested. If not, I will ride myself...

So, either I am fooling myself (quite possible) or I am just not seeing this mindset...


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## SimplyAmorous

frustr8dhubby said:


> I am the "nice guy" writ large. The difference (I hope) being that I don't do it with an expectation of something in return. Whether it is for my wife, my friends, even strangers if I am capable. It is imprinted in my DNA. Am I ever going to be mega-successful? Probably not because I usually concern myself more with others than myself.


 You sound like my husband here. To a point, he only wants to do for family, anyone else he could take them or leave them, but family reins. 

He likes who he is too, has no desire to change. 



> Maybe this doesn't mean a hill of beans but sometimes I get damn tired of the "nice guys" getting berated. And if that means I am unattractive to my wife, so be it, I will find someone that does like that part of me.


I don't like them being berated either. BUt I do love when they kick the abusing uninterested women to the curb and stand up for themselves.....and to see her left in the dust...begging for you to come back.. ... that would be priceless. If you're smart.....you'll even let her feel some of the pain. 

But I know , I know...that would be hard for you. My husband can't even eat the last cookie for himself, sometimes I will go up to him and say listen...."Be SELFISH, enjoy, either you are going to eat this.... or I am!". 

I have to wonder Frustr8dhubby, if you have the same temperment as my husband. He is an ISFJ... read this... does this sound like you... These people are ultra giving, in fact , they derive happiness from giving ...(It is Mother Teresas Temperment and only 8% of all men have it -so they claim, overwhelmingly more women have this particular temperment).

ISFJ Profile

Temperment test here : 

The Gray-Wheelwright-Winer 4-letter Type Indicator Test


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## Mavash.

frustr8dhubby said:


> I don't clean the table after dinner hoping she will have sex with me. I clean it because she spent the time preparing it, the least I can do is help clean up. I don't do home improvement projects to get laid, I do them because A) I enjoy doing it and B) I like giving her the home she wants.


Fair enough. And I felt the same way until I grasped this concept. Like cooking I thought well I'm the homemaker so I should cook. Right? He isn't meeting my needs other than the paycheck but cooking IS my job and we have kids. So I have to cook.

However I don't have to cook gourmet meals like I was before, I don't have to bake I don't have to go all out UNLESS I FEEL LIKE IT, in fact I can make hot dogs and chicken nuggets if I choose to. That's the LEAST I can do and I won't feel resentful for it because I was no longer doing it with expectations of ANY KIND sex or otherwise.


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## frustr8dhubby

SA,

Yep, that's me. I haven't taken the Grey-Wheelright stuff but on our DISC profiles here at work I am off the charts on S (Stabilizer) and C (Conscientious) and have very low I (Influencer) and almost no D (Driver).


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## Halien

Conrad said:


> For all the talk of 180's and do this and do that, I guarantee those that do not learn the lessons ABOUT THEMSELVES are doomed to repeat relationship mistakes.
> 
> The thing I fear for Frustr8ted Hubby is he's going to walk WITHOUT ever getting any practice at setting boundaries for his wife. This maximizes the chance that when he gets into his next relationship, he'll repeat the same mistakes.
> 
> His wife was sent to him for him to learn this lesson.


One thing that goes through my mind as I read threads like this is that even in marriages where sex has never once been an issue, I couldn't say with any real confidence that I wouldn't end up in a similar situation in a different hypothetical marriage. 180 and similar ideas are foreign to me. I always felt like I bent over backwards to meet her needs, wanting to make her happy, but while some needs were unmet, sex was never optional. 

I'm just thinking out loud, but I really wonder if situations where one partner loses the desire to stay sexually connected at the level they were before marriage are really because one person has begun to change the narrative of the relationship early in the marriage. Before marriage, a vision of what it took to have a secure relationship usually drives a person to be spouse-focused, but in many cases, this changes. 

One thing I would do again is a very clear agreement on what getting married would mean. My wife is very practical, and for her part wanted to make sure that we would both committ to a time of intimacy every single day. Me, I figured that was close enough to what we needed. There was just absolutely no way that we would stay married without true fidelity, and to us that meant an active love. Our engagement ceremony, which was a native american ceremony, sybolized this active, sexual connection, focused on building a new combined spirit. Intentionally end the unity, and the marriage was ended. Divorce is just a word you put on paper after the fact.


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## Deejo

May help, maybe not; Covert Contracts « Evolution: Male

The concept of 'Covert Contracts' are probably applicable to both sexes as well. However, in the case of a NG, to me ... at it's simplest, the NG believes that 'What goes around comes around'. If I do good, good will come back to me. It needn't be as nefarious as, if I go shoe shopping and don't complain ... I'll get a blowjob.

Importantly, they are often unconscious, and they may have a great deal to do with 'who you perceive yourself to be'. If you are a peace-keeper, and a follower, then being accommodating is going to be your default setting.

However, I very strongly believe that friction, not always compliance, in varying degrees is a tremendous contributor to respect and attraction.


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## SimplyAmorous

> SA,
> 
> Yep, that's me. I haven't taken the Grey-Wheelright stuff but on our DISC profiles here at work I am off the charts on S (Stabilizer) and C (Conscientious) and have very low I (Influencer) and almost no D (Driver)


I looked this up, this stuff can explain much about you - so if anyone wants to read your fine points -- what you excell in , what is your natural gifts....


•*Conscientiousness*: Concerned and Correct. C's are sticklers for quality and like planning ahead, employing systematic approaches, and checking and re-checking for accuracy. DiSC - Conscientiousness (C)  

•*Steadiness*: Sympathetic and Cooperative. S's are helpful people who like working behind the scenes, performing in consistent and predictable ways, and being good listeners.  DiSC -Steadiness (S) 


And these are where you scored low, things that do not come naturally.. but still need to be strived for...these things are "more" work for you. 

•*Dominance*: Direct and Decisive. D's are strong-willed, strong-minded people who like accepting challenges, taking action, and getting immediate results.


•*influence*: Optimistic and Outgoing. I's are "people people" who like participating on teams, sharing ideas, and energizing and entertaining others.


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## Tall Average Guy

frustr8dhubby said:


> I don't clean the table after dinner hoping she will have sex with me. I clean it because she spent the time preparing it, the least I can do is help clean up. I don't do home improvement projects to get laid, I do them because A) I enjoy doing it and B) I like giving her the home she wants.
> 
> So I am not sure where I am "losing myself" in there..?? Are there some things I would like to be doing for myself that I am not currently? Sure. But I also have little time/money for them right now so hopefully if we are still together that will change.


I think on at least one level your wife is not valuing those contributions that you are making. You say that you do home improvement projects because you like to give her the home she wants. The question is does she place any actual value on that? It seems like she is not.

Part of disengaging is to have you stop putting effort into things she does not value. If you loved getting her flowers, but ever time you did she threw them in the trash the next day when you left, how long would you continue giving her flowers?


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## Conrad

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think on at least one level your wife is not valuing those contributions that you are making. You say that you do home improvement projects because you like to give her the home she wants. The question is does she place any actual value on that? It seems like she is not.
> 
> Part of disengaging is to have you stop putting effort into things she does not value. If you loved getting her flowers, but ever time you did she threw them in the trash the next day when you left, how long would you continue giving her flowers?


TAG,

Sometimes the dots really don't connect.

My wife and I are separated right now. There are numerous reasons why, but she's getting a hard healthy dose of what life has to dish out without a man at home to take care of many of these things.

She's feeling it.

But, her right brain isn't grasping her role in it - yet.


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## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I looked this up, this stuff can explain much about you - so if anyone wants to read your fine points -- what you excell in , what is your natural gifts....
> 
> 
> •*Conscientiousness*: Concerned and Correct. C's are sticklers for quality and like planning ahead, employing systematic approaches, and checking and re-checking for accuracy. DiSC - Conscientiousness (C)
> 
> •*Steadiness*: Sympathetic and Cooperative. S's are helpful people who like working behind the scenes, performing in consistent and predictable ways, and being good listeners.  DiSC -Steadiness (S)
> 
> 
> And these are where you scored low, things that do not come naturally.. but still need to be strived for...these things are "more" work for you.
> 
> •*Dominance*: Direct and Decisive. D's are strong-willed, strong-minded people who like accepting challenges, taking action, and getting immediate results.
> 
> 
> •*influence*: Optimistic and Outgoing. I's are "people people" who like participating on teams, sharing ideas, and energizing and entertaining others.


It'll not be much of a surprise that back in the 80s I was just about all D and I. This is obviously opposite to frustr8dhubby. I find it quite amusing that I even get frustrated with people like that here on the internet. And am somewhat conscious of being a right pita.




But these things need new ideas to solve them. frustr8dhubby cannot solve the problems he has with his wife by being frustr8dhubby!


And good luck finding another woman where he gets what he wants and all is tickety boo and happy ever after!


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Toffer,
> 
> There's a longer version of this elsewhere in the forum.
> 
> Yet, the insight for this comes largely from AFEH's favorite guy - DeMello. There are 3 ways to give pleasure.
> 
> 1) Please yourself (sometimes easier said than done) - this makes you feel good about you
> 
> 2) Please another in a way that makes you feel good about yourself. This may be charity or giving someone a hand.
> 
> 3) Please another in a way that makes you feel BAD about you.
> 
> Turn #3 over in your head for awhile. When your wife asks you to do something that would make you feel like a doormat - UNLESS you get a big payback in appreciation, sex, love, etc. - you are on dangerous ground.
> 
> If that payback does not materialize, you are inviting your shadow side into your relationship.
> 
> That won't go well.
> 
> Much better to have your wife experience the small disappointment of a "I'm not ok with this" on a particular issue than the big disappointment of, "You're an ungrateful abusive b*tch!" after years of #3 situations.


That shadow can be a wicked thing. Problem is most people can’t see their own shadow and even if someone points it out to them they’ll likely deny it’s existence.

But a lot of growth work is concerned with bringing our shadow out from our unconscious mind and into our conscious mind. One of the things De Mello helps us see is our own shadow. But only if we believe in it’s existence and go looking for it.


I found a new term the other day “Observer Consciousness” for what de Mello teaches. Another type of consciousness would be “Ego Consciousness” where we see the world only in relation to our ego, which is of course very self-centred and exceedingly limited in its knowledge and level of understanding.


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## AFEH

These are the definitions we used to use …

Dominance: People who score high in the intensity of the "D" styles factor are very active in dealing with problems and challenges, while low "D" scores are people who want to do more research before committing to a decision. High "D" people are described as demanding, forceful, egocentric, strong willed, driving, determined, ambitious, aggressive, and pioneering. Low D scores describe those who are conservative, low keyed, cooperative, calculating, undemanding, cautious, mild, agreeable, modest and peaceful.

Influence: People with high "I" scores influence others through talking and activity and tend to be emotional. They are described as convincing, magnetic, political, enthusiastic, persuasive, warm, demonstrative, trusting, and optimistic. Those with low "I" scores influence more by data and facts, and not with feelings. They are described as reflective, factual, calculating, skeptical, logical, suspicious, matter of fact, pessimistic, and critical.

Steadiness: People with high "S" styles scores want a steady pace, security, and do not like sudden change. High "S" individuals are calm, relaxed, patient, possessive, predictable, deliberate, stable, consistent, and tend to be unemotional and poker faced. Low "S" intensity scores are those who like change and variety. People with low "S" scores are described as restless, demonstrative, impatient, eager, or even impulsive.

Compliance:[3] People with high "C" styles adhere to rules, regulations, and structure. They like to do quality work and do it right the first time. High "C" people are careful, cautious, exacting, neat, systematic, diplomatic, accurate, and tactful. Those with low "C" scores challenge the rules and want independence and are described as self-willed, stubborn, opinionated, unsystematic, arbitrary, and unconcerned with details.


Somebody who is SC, Stable and Compliant isn't going to rock the boat or get outseide their comfort zone in order to effect change. They are just not going to change and feel very proud of the fact that they're not going to change. "The ship's going down! But I'm not changing!".

It's the world around them that must change to suit them. Good luck with that one!


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## frustr8dhubby

AFEH,

You do realize that if you believe in that stuff that, that is your "base" personality. To change it typically requires a life changing event.

But that would be a typical D, bowl over everyone to get "their" way regardless of whether or not it is "right"..


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## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> AFEH,
> 
> You do realize that if you believe in that stuff that, that is your "base" personality. To change it typically requires a life changing event.
> 
> But that would be a typical D, bowl over everyone to get "their" way regardless of whether or not it is "right"..


Well I’ve got to believe in something, right? I’m sure that just like me you believe in many things as well. But it doesn’t mean we have to be a slave to them in that we can always question what we believe in.

SCs are in the main adapters, whereas DIs are adopters. In that SCs only change when change is forced upon them, when there is clearly no other way and the old “world order” is defunct and decrepit. You’ve been at this for 8 years right? But you wont change. Just how exceedingly stubborn is that!

On the other hand DIs as adopters are always looking for new ways of doing things, something new to adopt, new and creative ways of solving problems, coming up with new, innovative, cost effective solutions.

Of course the world needs both types. Without one, the other cannot exist, more or less. We both make the others place a better world in which to live, or at least we should. But working together, as a team does indeed have it’s problems.


My wife was/is very high SC and very low DI. I know the upside and I know the downside. Immensely frustrating at times but of terrific value to me more or less all the time. So never under estimate yourself!

But it was me who ended our marriage and it’s me who’s made sure it’s kept that way. Why? Because she absolutely and point blankly refused to adopt new ways, creative ways of solving the age old problems between the two of us.

Now she is absolutely forced, beyond her will in that she’d rather be here with me (although she tells different people different things so I don’t really know what to believe), to adapt to a new life style.


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## MEM2020

F8,
Being "D" doesn't mean being selfish. Just as being elsewhere on the DISC profile doesn't make you selfless. 

Reflect on this for a moment. While Bob's "D" likely got him into some mischief now and again, your lack of D has done the same for you. For example, your approach to being sexually shut down was sometimes to grope your wife. 

Your kindness and consideration are huge strengths. They do however work strongly against you in a "locked room" scenario with a partner who is not so considerate. 

IME you don't need to be D, to enforce your boundaries. 




frustr8dhubby said:


> AFEH,
> 
> You do realize that if you believe in that stuff that, that is your "base" personality. To change it typically requires a life changing event.
> 
> But that would be a typical D, bowl over everyone to get "their" way regardless of whether or not it is "right"..


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## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> F8,
> Being "D" doesn't mean being selfish. Just as being elsewhere on the DISC profile doesn't make you selfless.
> 
> Reflect on this for a moment. While Bob's "D" likely got him into some mischief now and again, your lack of D has done the same for you. For example, your approach to being sexually shut down was sometimes to grope your wife.
> 
> Your kindness and consideration are huge strengths. They do however work strongly against you in a "locked room" scenario with a partner who is not so considerate.
> 
> IME you don't need to be D, to enforce your boundaries.


Some Ds MEM have exceedingly poor boundaries. I think the reason Ds have poor boundaries is because they believe there’s ALWAYS a solution to a problem combined with the fact that they believe that just like themselves, others are ALWAYS willing to change and adopt new ways of doing things. So if we get hurt, we try and find out the reasons why and teach our wives how not to hurt us. Crazy or what.

So when a DI is being abused by an SC he’ll look to help her change her ways. To help her find new ways of being. What he knows but doesn’t truly understand or believe is that she is not at all like him. That she just doesn’t want to change and the reasons why she doesn’t want to change are totally immaterial.

Sometimes these things are like trying to get a rock to be a tree, trying to get blood out of a stone, turning an elephant into a mouse.

It’s never going to happen! Even at the cost of the marriage, the loss of the man they say they love and a huge change in lifestyle! Some people really are that stubborn. Cut off their own nose to spite their face type of thing.


The last time round my wife abused me I put up boundaries and gave her ultimatums. It’s my way or the highway. She chose the highway and since then I’ve discovered just how exceptionally two faced she’d been with me for years!

And I’ve immense problems coming to terms with the fact that my wife hurt me in premeditated ways. She actually sat down, took time to think about it, plan for it and then carried out her plans. I think that’s evil, really evil and never ever imagined any woman or man would do such a thing to their life partner.

Her brother was so pathologically embittered that he killed himself and other people at the same time. Pathologically embittered people have exceedingly poor, malformed anger management processes. It’s how mass murderers become mass murderers. Her mother is pathologically embittered and taught her children evil ways of managing their anger.

That’s what I was dealing with. People who when they are hurt and angry sit down and plan their revenge instead of trying to understand things, forgiving and moving on to a better place. I tried to get her to “see the light”. But these things are deeply embedded in a person and they’re very much better handled with boundaries of intolerance.


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

frustr8dhubby said:


> Are there times when I get frustrated that often my deeds aren't reciprocated? Sure, I am also human. However, I also know human nature and most people are takers, not givers.
> 
> Maybe this doesn't mean a hill of beans but sometimes I get damn tired of the "nice guys" getting berated. And if that means I am unattractive to my wife, so be it, I will find someone that does like that part of me.


This whole topic is covered well in No More Mr. Nice Guy. I agree with Conrad and have been both a "nice guy" and a guy who is nice. My life works infinitely better as a guy who is nice.

Frustr8dhubby: I don't believe you are being honest with yourself about how frustrated it makes you feel. Jeez - look at your user name. 

For me, this boils down to understanding that you are not a victim and can choose/take action to make your life what you want. 

This means, if sex is important to you, that you tell your wife she needs to get with the program or you will leave. It is hard, but a pretty straightforward choice. Say it, mean it. You can't force her to change, so you change yourself. You get fit, successful, and go out and get from life what you want - including a woman who wants to have sex with you regularly. 

This is also about having an internal reference as opposed to an external reference for how you feel about yourself. Throughout your posts, there are constant references to how others react/feel etc. It appears that you define yourself based on how others view you. This is a codependent and unhealthy mental frame of reference.

It is more than human nature to be a taker, it is the essence of being human. You are on this earth to take care of your own needs. If you do a good job of it, you may have extra to give away. This is like flying with a toddler. When the plane depressurizes, you get your mask on first so you can function for both of you. If you focus on the toddler's needs, the likelihood of two fatalities increases.

With respect to the last point, I think you will find yourself repeating the pattern over and over. The next woman will appreciate it, until she goes and screws the guy who said "to hell with it" and bought himself a motorcycle and lived the way he really wanted to.

For what its worth: 



Conrad said:


> TAG,
> 
> Sometimes the dots really don't connect.
> 
> My wife and I are separated right now. There are numerous reasons why, but she's getting a hard healthy dose of what life has to dish out without a man at home to take care of many of these things.
> 
> She's feeling it.
> 
> But, her right brain isn't grasping her role in it - yet.


This is an example of being focused in the wrong spot. You are separated and need to work on yourself. Instead, you are focused on teaching your wife a lesson on the cold hard facts of life. This is not likely to work. 

Healthy separation is "wow, I can live without her, the sex, the troubles and everything. I love her, but can live without out her and may have to. I accept this, and now focus my energies on making my life look the way I want it to. Maybe it will work out and maybe it won't, but I will be happy in either case. Yes, I would mourn the loss of my marriage, but I can handle it."


----------



## MEM2020

Bob,
I am less "D" than you are. And while my W is capable of being deliberately mean, it is fairly rare. But I think I understand the basic flavor pretty well. 

Yours is a sad story. I have to head to work - will revisit this when my toils are finished...





AFEH said:


> Some Ds MEM have exceedingly poor boundaries. I think the reason Ds have poor boundaries is because they believe there’s ALWAYS a solution to a problem combined with the fact that they believe that just like themselves, others are ALWAYS willing to change and adopt new ways of doing things. So if we get hurt, we try and find out the reasons why and teach our wives how not to hurt us. Crazy or what.
> 
> So when a DI is being abused by an SC he’ll look to help her change her ways. To help her find new ways of being. What he knows but doesn’t truly understand or believe is that she is not at all like him. That she just doesn’t want to change and the reasons why she doesn’t want to change are totally immaterial.
> 
> Sometimes these things are like trying to get a rock to be a tree, trying to get blood out of a stone, turning an elephant into a mouse.
> 
> It’s never going to happen! Even at the cost of the marriage, the loss of the man they say they love and a huge change in lifestyle! Some people really are that stubborn. Cut off their own nose to spite their face type of thing.
> 
> 
> The last time round my wife abused me I put up boundaries and gave her ultimatums. It’s my way or the highway. She chose the highway and since then I’ve discovered just how exceptionally two faced she’d been with me for years!
> 
> And I’ve immense problems coming to terms with the fact that my wife hurt me in premeditated ways. She actually sat down, took time to think about it, plan for it and then carried out her plans. I think that’s evil, really evil and never ever imagined any woman or man would do such a thing to their life partner.
> 
> Her brother was so pathologically embittered that he killed himself and other people at the same time. Pathologically embittered people have exceedingly poor, malformed anger management processes. It’s how mass murderers become mass murderers. Her mother is pathologically embittered and taught her children evil ways of managing their anger.
> 
> That’s what I was dealing with. People who when they are hurt and angry sit down and plan their revenge instead of trying to understand things, forgiving and moving on to a better place. I tried to get her to “see the light”. But these things are deeply embedded in a person and they’re very much better handled with boundaries of intolerance.


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> AFEH,
> 
> You do realize that if you believe in that stuff that, that is your "base" personality. To change it typically requires a life changing event.
> 
> But that would be a typical D, bowl over everyone to get "their" way regardless of whether or not it is "right"..


See I would go as far to say that you are in denial that you are not resentful towards your wife. It’s been what eight years of trying. And you’re really trying to say that you are that Nice a person that you hold no anger or dislike against your wife, that you are not resentful towards your wife?

Surely that’s being very two faced? Not real.

Come on get real. Get out of your denial and accept your feeling for what they truly are. Or are you like my wife in that you are able to truly subjugate your feelings. That you are truly able to conquer, subdue and vanquish your emotions?

That you are able to suppress them such that you think they no longer exist. Is that what’s happening within you?


That in my mind is serious, malformed anger management. Some people suppress their anger such that it grows and grows as resentment inside of them, even when they think it isn’t there! And then they turn into the very long term resentful and become embittered!

In extreme cases some are so pathologically embittered that when the next thing comes along that makes them angry they explode in ways that are so very out of character the person themselves is simply not recognisable as the person they were.

Oh, he was a very nice guy. Dependable, compliant, stable, friendly but rather secretive and closed. Never thought he would be capable of doing such a thing and even as a good friend of his I never knew he had such problems!


----------



## FormerNiceGuy

AFEH said:


> In extreme cases some are so pathologically embittered that when the next thing comes along that makes them angry they explode in ways that are so very out of character the person themselves is simply not recognisable as the person they were.


:iagree:

Going postal.


----------



## Conrad

FormerNiceGuy said:


> This is an example of being focused in the wrong spot. You are separated and need to work on yourself. Instead, you are focused on teaching your wife a lesson on the cold hard facts of life. This is not likely to work.
> 
> Healthy separation is "wow, I can live without her, the sex, the troubles and everything. I love her, but can live without out her and may have to. I accept this, and now focus my energies on making my life look the way I want it to. Maybe it will work out and maybe it won't, but I will be happy in either case. Yes, I would mourn the loss of my marriage, but I can handle it."


If that one sentence reflected all I've done, I'd agree with you.

It represents the limitations of forums.

I appreciate you caring enough to write.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

AFEH,

I don't believe I have ever stated that I don't hold resentment towards my wife right now. I do and I have told her in so many words. (Just got off of an hour an a half phone conversation with her because she is sensing the recent tension).

Granted, because of my nature I do tend to suppress anger longer than I should but I do usually express it. Where I am more likely to fall down is follow-through. I will try to talk it out, have a short blow-up, and then let it go. Not necessarily healthy, I know.

One reason I don't like things like DISC is that they can tend to be too rigid in their definitions. I am not change averse by any means. Cripes, I work in IT and stuff changes every other month any more it seems like.. :scratchhead:

That all being said, I do appreciate your insight.

FormerNiceGuy,

I am a little confused as to where you think I am wrapped up in what others think about me (besides my wife of course). Do you mean because of the comment I made about my friend?


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Wow, seems I killed another thread.. w00t, I am on a roll!


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> Wow, seems I killed another thread.. w00t, I am on a roll!


You are a real dichotomy. “I will not change from being a Nice Guy”. “I am not adverse to change”.

The sort of IT change that you speak of is NOTHING compared to the sort of changes I talk about. Anyway more likely what you do is implement the changes authorised by someone else. Both technically and financially in that your highly unlikely to be the decision maker with total authority and responsibility. Although I’m sure you’re an exceedingly important part of the technology processes. So unless you’re the IT Director or some such the decision to make the change was not even yours!

What I talk about is cultural changes. For example changing the culture of an organisation in order to effect new and more aggressive business goals. You know the sort of stuff that’s needs $5 millions of hardware/software and $millions of training and consultancy to implement effectively.

But as a sales guy I could not help an organisation to change their culture UNLESS they wanted to change! 


And it’s exactly the same with people!

You don’t want to change. Therefore your world wont change. Sales guys call that type tyre kickers. That's all you are doing, kicking tyres without any intent to buy. You're not the first I doubt you'll be the last.


It really is that simple.


----------



## frustr8dhubby

AFEH said:


> You are a real dichotomy. “I will not change from being a Nice Guy”. “I am not adverse to change”.
> 
> The sort of IT change that you speak of is NOTHING compared to the sort of changes I talk about. Anyway more likely what you do is implement the changes authorised by someone else. Both technically and financially in that your highly unlikely to be the decision maker with total authority and responsibility. Although I’m sure you’re an exceedingly important part of the technology processes. So unless you’re the IT Director or some such the decision to make the change was not even yours!
> 
> What I talk about is cultural changes. For example changing the culture of an organisation in order to effect new and more aggressive business goals. You know the sort of stuff that’s needs $5 millions of hardware/software and $millions of training and consultancy to implement effectively.
> 
> But as a sales guy I could not help an organisation to change their culture UNLESS they wanted to change!
> 
> 
> And it’s exactly the same with people!
> 
> You don’t want to change. Therefore your world wont change. Sales guys call that type tyre kickers. That's all you are doing, kicking tyres without any intent to buy. You're not the first I doubt you'll be the last.
> 
> 
> It really is that simple.


Actually I am the IT "Director". And to a point, you are correct, I don't want to change. There are some subtle things about me that I do want to change but for the most part I like who I am so I don't see a reason to. I need to be more assertive, no question. That is something I am working on changing but I think my reluctance there has more to do with my insecurities than it does my SC profile...


----------



## Conrad

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I am the IT "Director". And to a point, you are correct, I don't want to change. There are some subtle things about me that I do want to change but for the most part I like who I am so I don't see a reason to. I need to be more assertive, no question. That is something I am working on changing but I think my reluctance there has more to do with my insecurities than it does my SC profile...


Have you been to counseling?

If you have, did you put those insecurities on the table for review?


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Yes and yes. There really is no sound basis for them. I was sexually abused a little when I was younger so there is some speculation that that has something to do with it, though I am not entirely convinced.

Actually it is kind of funny. The counselor at the time told me that I was one of the most well-adjusted and "in-touch" people she has ever met. Kind of funny to hear to someone who is so f'd up...


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> Actually I am the IT "Director". And to a point, you are correct, I don't want to change. There are some subtle things about me that I do want to change but for the most part I like who I am so I don't see a reason to. I need to be more assertive, no question. That is something I am working on changing but I think my reluctance there has more to do with my insecurities than it does my SC profile...


What on earth is an IT “Director”. To me it means you’re not an IT Director. It’s best to get real with these things otherwise you only fool yourself in the long run. Call yourself what you really are. And then set goals and plans for who you really want to be!

_“And to a point, you are correct, I don't want to change”. _What sort of gobbledegook language is that! Again I think you are only fooling and confusing yourself!

The cheapest life coaches charge about $70/hr. The best like Anthony Robins go at $1,000s/h. The money paid is the clients commitment to change!

You have ZERO commitment to change as a person no matter which way you want to spin it!

And forget about looking back and the reasons why you are where you are today. Assess where you are today, where you want to be in the future and make goals and plans and carry them out to ensure you get there. And enjoy the journey!


----------



## frustr8dhubby

Because I don't carry the Director title but am considered a Sr. Manager. I report to the CEO.

And you have no idea on my commitment to change. I requested and received Executive Coaching from this organization for the very reason that I want to change those parts about me that I do want to change (i.e. the confidence).

But I digress. You are obviously the supreme being and I bow to your godliness. (OK, that's a little uncalled for but obviously we are just going round and round at this point... )


----------



## Jeff/BC

Toffer said:


> Being a nice guy is fine up to the point that you're taken advantage of.


And at that point I have some choices. I could go down what is, to me, the path of darkness and become "not nice" -- an "alpha". That's certainly one way to enforce some boundaries. Alternately, I can be true to myself and be nice as I walk out the door. I'd rather retain my own personal sense of honor and integrity and be divorced rather than join in a race to the bottom. I suppose the last option is to do nothing. That, however, is not being "nice". It's being a victim.



> It was that lesson that taught me that some are givers and some solely takers.


That is exactly how I perceive all relationship partners... some are givers. On their lips, the word "love" means "I want to give to you." Most, by far, are takers. On their lips, the word "love" means they intend to get something from you. Obviously, when a giver and a taker get married, then the giver is taken advantage of. Again, I'd rather not enter into the "taker game" by playing back at them. There is no win in that... just loss.

What I wish I understood is why so many people seem to have so little sense of "self". To me, it doesn't seem a hard thing to say, "This is not a marriage, it's an oppressive regime." and simply opt out. There's no need for plans. There's no need to manipulate or punish. You just opt out because it's the right thing to do -- for everyone... especially including the children.


----------



## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> Because I don't carry the Director title but am considered a Sr. Manager. I report to the CEO.
> 
> And you have no idea on my commitment to change. I requested and received Executive Coaching from this organization for the very reason that I want to change those parts about me that I do want to change (i.e. the confidence).
> 
> But I digress. You are obviously the supreme being and I bow to your godliness. (OK, that's a little uncalled for but obviously we are just going round and round at this point... )


As you probably well know, Directors as “Officers of the Company” have legal obligations and responsibilities that even the most senior of senior managers don’t have! And in that respect you are nothing “like” a Director. You are a senior manager who reports to the CEO. Do you have full budget control? In some cases not even the most senior of directors have full budget control, they need the decision maker to sign off. As a senior manager how much can you sign off for $100, $10,000, $1,000,000?

How on earth does being unreal about your position help with your confidence? For me I think it seriously knocks it because you know you are not what you say you are!

Why on earth do you want to mislead people? Start off by getting real with yourself. Be CONFIDENT with who you are RIGHT NOW and be CONFIDENT that you will become who you want to be! Don’t tell lies about reaching an objective you have yet to achieve. Those things surely destroy confidence!

That’s how Ds think anyway. We believe in ourselves. We believe in our ability to get things done. We believe we’ll do it in one way or another. We believe we have what it takes. Sometimes we’re right, sometimes we’re wrong. Sometimes we actually fail at what we try to achieve.

But we never lie to ourselves and never fail for want of trying!


Sometimes the single biggest risk a person takes in their life is to NOT change. But they never know that until it’s way too late.


Start off by getting real with yourself because people will for sure see straight the way through you. Two of the most important things needed in life are personal credibility and integrity. From there comes CONFIDENCE and without them there is little or no confidence.


----------



## Racer

I was the nice guy.

Upon reflection: Most of my life was about suppressing those supposed negative feelings by being overly empathic and understanding of what others did and why. I just didn’t value myself as much as those around me. As I reflected, my life had simply become what I believed others expected from me. It really isn’t even about them controlling me... It was about me trying to be what they wanted from me and giving them this freely. It made me feel good to do this. That is how I defined myself... 

Yet, underneath, it wasn’t rewarding at all. You could just feel this lack of direction and what I call “the waiting”. The waiting is just feeling lost until someone would clue you in on what you should be doing. Seriously, if I had just a couple hours alone, I would be too scared to make a choice to do something because it might interfere with something my wife might want or the kids might want when they got home. So I’d feel that constant anxiety not knowing what to do with myself and feeling selfish if I did something just for me. It’s not that I particularly wanted to do what they wanted to do either; It’s that I felt like I would be ‘letting them down’ if I said no. And there was that resentment festering that I was not in control of my own destiny; And I blamed others instead of why I was letting them control me. (btw; this internal struggle and frustration also led to quite a bit of passive/aggressive as I tried to hold onto any semblance of control over my own life.)

And in exchange? I thought everyone would see this great selfless guy and shower him with praise, love and affection. I thought I’d be encouraged to occasionally indulge in some selfish ‘me stuff’. I was the opposite of an a-hole. 

The result; I’ve been through a lot more than any parent or husband should ever have to face. I didn’t just hit bottom, I crashed through it into the surreal life where nothing made sense. The crossroads... I started changing myself and looking inward for the solution rather than to others. I’m two years out now into this... while life isn’t perfect, I am getting a lot more of what I want by just being me without a overly magnified care what you or anyone else really thinks about it (including my wife).


----------



## Conrad

Racer,

BRAVO!


----------



## RandomDude

@Frustratedhubby

My wife has a lot of quality that sets her apart from alot of other women to the point I doubt anyone else could have handled me. but the truth is however that even she, like any other human being will keep pushing to see what they can get away with.

What Conrad is explaining here on this thread is the measure of self-respect one has, and the truth is when people don't respect themselves or show that impression it's impossible for others to respect them. You can be a nice guy, no one is asking you to change, but respect yourself for it and don't let people take advantage of it - make sure they know where they stand. It's just being firm that people are talking about. Nice & firm.


----------



## Bluemoon1

Racer said:


> I was the nice guy.
> 
> Upon reflection: Most of my life was about suppressing those supposed negative feelings by being overly empathic and understanding of what others did and why. I just didn’t value myself as much as those around me. As I reflected, my life had simply become what I believed others expected from me. It really isn’t even about them controlling me... It was about me trying to be what they wanted from me and giving them this freely. It made me feel good to do this. That is how I defined myself...
> 
> Yet, underneath, it wasn’t rewarding at all. You could just feel this lack of direction and what I call “the waiting”. The waiting is just feeling lost until someone would clue you in on what you should be doing. Seriously, if I had just a couple hours alone, I would be too scared to make a choice to do something because it might interfere with something my wife might want or the kids might want when they got home. So I’d feel that constant anxiety not knowing what to do with myself and feeling selfish if I did something just for me. It’s not that I particularly wanted to do what they wanted to do either; It’s that I felt like I would be ‘letting them down’ if I said no. And there was that resentment festering that I was not in control of my own destiny; And I blamed others instead of why I was letting them control me. (btw; this internal struggle and frustration also led to quite a bit of passive/aggressive as I tried to hold onto any semblance of control over my own life.)
> 
> And in exchange? I thought everyone would see this great selfless guy and shower him with praise, love and affection. I thought I’d be encouraged to occasionally indulge in some selfish ‘me stuff’. I was the opposite of an a-hole.
> 
> The result; I’ve been through a lot more than any parent or husband should ever have to face. I didn’t just hit bottom, I crashed through it into the surreal life where nothing made sense. The crossroads... I started changing myself and looking inward for the solution rather than to others. I’m two years out now into this... while life isn’t perfect, I am getting a lot more of what I want by just being me without a overly magnified care what you or anyone else really thinks about it (including my wife).


Sums up nice guy syndrome to a T well done


----------



## Tommyboy

Great post. I am still working on finding that balance between being nice/helpful and a doormat. I have found my wife is coming to respect me more when I tell her how I really feel about tings instead of agreeing to keep the peace. I guess she can also tell when I am standing up for myself and just taking it versus not doing something I really do not want to do.


----------



## Conrad

Tommy,

Here's a way you can "know" for sure.

There are 3 ways to give pleasure.

1) Do something that gives pleasure to you! This is often simple, but overlooked by people who give their entire lives to their partner. It can be a purchase, activity, or a hobby. Just something you enjoy FOR YOU.

2) Do something that gives pleasure to someone else. This may be charity. It can be some activity. BUT - you must derive pleasure from the act of doing it - absent the idea you will get something back. Just the act itself and thinking about the pleasure of the other person is enough to justify the effort

3) Do something that gives pleasure to someone else that makes you FEEL BAD about yourself.

Avoid #3 and you can be a healthy partner in any relationship.

So many of us here have not been able to avoid #3 - for any number of reasons.


----------



## Mishy

Racer said:


> I was the nice guy.
> 
> 
> Yet, underneath, it wasn’t rewarding at all. You could just feel this lack of direction and what I call “the waiting”. The waiting is just feeling lost until someone would clue you in on what you should be doing. Seriously, if I had just a couple hours alone, I would be too scared to make a choice to do something because it might interfere with something my wife might want or the kids might want when they got home. So I’d feel that constant anxiety not knowing what to do with myself and feeling selfish if I did something just for me. It’s not that I particularly wanted to do what they wanted to do either; It’s that I felt like I would be ‘letting them down’ if I said no. And there was that resentment festering that I was not in control of my own destiny; And I blamed others instead of why I was letting them control me. (btw; this internal struggle and frustration also led to quite a bit of passive/aggressive as I tried to hold onto any semblance of control over my own life.)


Hi Racer,

I see myself when you talk about "the waiting". I am reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" and starting to be more selfish and focused on myself.

How did you get out of it? 

I am starting to make plans for myself about what I want (work/house/car/motorbike/etc..) and actually doing something about it (bought a bicycle that I always wanted, started a project that I always put on "hold" because I was dedicating my time to others, etc.).

I found really challenging to deal with people/relationship though.

In the Gray-Wheelwright-Winer Type Indicator test I resulted INTJ, and it's true that it's kinda hard for me to deal with people and relationship especially what said here (quote from INTJ Profile ):


> Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in interpersonal situations.
> 
> This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense.  This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs -- only instead of expecting inexhaustible affection and empathy from a romantic relationship, the INTJ will expect inexhaustible reasonability and directness.
> 
> Probably the strongest INTJ assets in the interpersonal area are their intuitive abilities and their willingness to "work at" a relationship. Although as Ts they do not always have the kind of natural empathy that many Fs do, the Intuitive function can often act as a good substitute by synthesizing the probable meanings behind such things as tone of voice, turn of phrase, and facial expression. This ability can then be honed and directed by consistent, repeated efforts to understand and support those they care about, and those relationships which ultimately do become established with an INTJ tend to be characterized by their robustness, stability, and good communications.


I am trying to set boundaries every day, and to say "NO", and it takes a good deal of work for me. I am starting to see little results but I am sure it's going to be a long process.


----------



## Conrad

Mishy said:


> Hi Racer,
> 
> I see myself when you talk about "the waiting". I am reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" and starting to be more selfish and focused on myself.
> 
> How did you get out of it?
> 
> I am starting to make plans for myself about what I want (work/house/car/motorbike/etc..) and actually doing something about it (bought a bicycle that I always wanted, started a project that I always put on "hold" because I was dedicating my time to others, etc.).
> 
> I found really challenging to deal with people/relationship though.
> 
> In the Gray-Wheelwright-Winer Type Indicator test I resulted INTJ, and it's true that it's kinda hard for me to deal with people and relationship especially what said here (quote from INTJ Profile ):
> 
> I am trying to set boundaries every day, and to say "NO", and it takes a good deal of work for me. I am starting to see little results but I am sure it's going to be a long process.


I have heard it takes 3 full months to "counter" every dysfunctional year you have under your belt.

Yes, it's a long process.


----------



## Racer

Mishy said:


> Hi Racer,
> 
> I see myself when you talk about "the waiting". I am reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" and starting to be more selfish and focused on myself.
> 
> How did you get out of it? .


How I got out of it is different than how I recovered from it.

NMMNG is a good program and what I did. That is how I recovered initially. It may be enough for most... for me; It was uglier.

How did I get out? My “Nice Guy” got murdered. Anyone who does a lot of deep core changes needs a traumatic catalyst; life altering events are for sure. The brief: My catalyst was the discovery of my wife’s multiple affairs and me wondering how the hell I ended up here. On top of it, as I went through the NMMNG program and things were getting ‘better’... I got murdered again. I made the mistake of tailoring “what I want” (a key element of NMMNG) to align with her visions of what a good husband and father looks like; Just another variant of living up to expectations of others and setting those as goals. Stupid MC and their suggestions on how to recover reinforced those NG beliefs of what I should want it to look like; Works with a concerned remorseful wayward spouses, but not with a devious self-righteous entitled one. 

She got her happy little husband to try even harder to ‘win her back’, save the family, and create a newer, stronger marriage instead of repeating the old one.... and the crazy B kept her boyfriends on the side and went deep underground... This was a much deeper, soul wrenching experience for me to discover. The first one I had believed was the worst thing to ever happen and traumatic as hell... The second just broke what was left of my soul and my belief system. She, and the ‘healthy marital advice’ essentially removed themselves entirely from the overall picture as far as my consideration went. 

My second round of “getting out” was completely about me from the approach of being strong enough to live life alone and self-sufficient. I wasn’t going to become the male version of ‘the cat lady’ mumbling to himself in the corner about how bad the world sucks. So, I rebuilt myself without a shred of care about how I went about this. I did whatever it took to save myself and just went on gut instinct without those restraints... So, my wife opened pandora’s box in me. It really wasn’t pretty for her at all. She may regret it, but I’m feeling free and alive like the chains are finally gone and I can do whatever I want without guilt that I’m really letting anyone down. 

Then it got really interesting. After deciding I no longer liked this ride, I didn’t just hop off. I burned it all to the ground in a not so nice way on my way out. I embraced my dark side and crossed a lot of boundaries between spouses; said all those things you’ve been warned to never say. I spat back out all the pent up poison in me and threw her into the abyss. When she started climbing back out using her tried and true methods of blame shifting; I shoved her back down using reality and facts: She was an awful person and delusional in her own made up fantasy land. I gave her a dark gift: Her own little catylst of her world crumbling around her and another more disturbing reflection haunting and staring back at her when she looked in a mirror. 

And she wanted to change: Not for me or some manipulation of the marriage, but because of who she became and how she ended up there. And we’ve been together ever since recovering together. Basically we’re now two years out from my second shattering, three from the initial discovery.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Racer said:


> After deciding I no longer liked this ride, I didn’t just hop off. I burned it all to the ground in a not so nice way on my way out. I embraced my dark side and crossed a lot of boundaries between spouses; said all those things you’ve been warned to never say.
> 
> I gave her a dark gift: Her own little catylst of her world crumbling around her and another more disturbing reflection haunting and staring back at her when she looked in a mirror.
> 
> And she wanted to change: Not for me or some manipulation of the marriage, but because of who she became and how she ended up there. And we’ve been together ever since recovering together. Basically we’re now two years out from my second shattering, three from the initial discovery.


Congratulations for taking an incredibly hard step. I have been on a similar, but less dramatic journey.


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## FormerNiceGuy

Mishy said:


> I see myself when you talk about "the waiting". I am reading "No More Mr Nice Guy" and starting to be more selfish and focused on myself.


Mishy, do the Breaking Free exercises in the book as completely and as openly as you can. 

One point of correction - it isn't selfish to take good care of yourself - it is healthy!

Think about it like putting oxygen on yourself before a child in an airplane depressurization - you are useless as an adult caretaker if you are passed out. People can be generous when their personal well is full, otherwise they are a nuisance to everyone including themselves.


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## MisterNiceGuy

Cheers brother Racer! I didn't have it as bad as you did. I only had to go through it the first round and not a 2nd one like you did. I was a very beta Nice Guy for many years and I think I am recovering nicely, but I know it's a lifetime of work. I am a follower of Dr. Glover's. I was in one of his men's groups here in the Seattle area and got to know him pretty well. I wish he would write a new book on some of his newer stuff that I think is more to the point than NMMNG. He has a new thing called All The Way In and I highly suggest taking that online class if you can. Keep calm and carry on!


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## OOE

Conrad, I've read the thread then went back and re-read your OP. From reading many of the follow-ups, I thought you'd said something I missed.

Doing something with an expectation of something in return is just a transaction. We do this all the time. For example, we work 8 hours with the expectation of a paycheck. We give the cashier at McDonald's money with the expectation of getting what we order.

However, in a relationship, this is a recipe for disaster (as you said).

When we give with expectation of something in return, it's not really a gift. Conciously or not, we expect equal value for what we've done/given. Unfortunately, in a relationship, it's impossible to have perfectly balanced scales.

This isn't just the case with being nice, but really with all of the daily stuff in a relationship -- intimacy, chores, gifts, etc. A transactional relationship just doesn't work.

So the issue really isn't with being nice. It's with being nice with an expectation of something (anything) in return. This is actually manipulative behavior.

In my self-discovery, I've found that it's entirely possible to be very nice and very giving while having healthy boundaries and no expectations. For me, establishing boundaries and communicating needs have been the keys. And yes, not having needs met is a boundary.


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## Conrad

Well said.

These pages drip with resentment and bitterness from people that expect something from their spouses - and don't get it.

Our charge is to get right with ourselves so we can examine our expectations and ensure they don't arise from boredom, selfishness, laziness, or other forms of entitlement.

THEN - and only then - are we ready to give without expectations. Give with no expectation of anything coming back.

It's called "claiming your happiness"

It's a truly blissful place.


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## AFEH

Well I don’t agree with that!

I most certainly have expectations. Expectations that I wont be betrayed, that I wont be lied to, that I wont be stolen from. Expectations that if I’m taken ill I will be looked after. Expectations that my wife wont get into bed with another man. Expectations that I will be forgiven if I err.

I am absolutely loaded with expectations! And when in some cases my expectations are not met I feel seriously betrayed.


Giving without the expectations of something in return is surely unconditional love. How long can you give unconditional love getting nothing back without feeling you’re in a void? Without feeling you’re a castaway on a desert island (with no dancing natives!).

I think maybe you’re in denial Conrad. That too can be a blissful place to be in.

No man is an island …. don’t ask for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee!


You can keep hitting the ball over the net as long as you like. But how long will you continue if nothing comes back!




There is no such thing as s.e.l.f.l.e.s.s.n.e.s.s.



It doesn't exist!


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## Sawney Beane

OOE said:


> And yes, not having needs met is a boundary.


How is it maintained / enforced?


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## Sawney Beane

Conrad said:


> Well said.
> 
> These pages drip with resentment and bitterness from people that expect something from their spouses - and don't get it.
> 
> Our charge is to get right with ourselves so we can examine our expectations and ensure they don't arise from boredom, selfishness, laziness, or other forms of entitlement.
> 
> THEN - and only then - are we ready to give without expectations. Give with no expectation of anything coming back.
> 
> It's called "claiming your happiness"
> 
> It's a truly blissful place.





AFEH said:


> Well I don’t agree with that!
> 
> I most certainly have expectations. Expectations that I wont be betrayed, that I wont be lied to, that I wont be stolen from. Expectations that if I’m taken ill I will be looked after. Expectations that my wife wont get into bed with another man. Expectations that I will be forgiven if I err.
> 
> I am absolutely loaded with expectations! And when in some cases my expectations are not met I feel seriously betrayed.
> 
> 
> Giving without the expectations of something in return is surely unconditional love. How long can you give unconditional love getting nothing back without feeling you’re in a void? Without feeling you’re a castaway on a desert island (with no dancing natives!).
> 
> I think maybe you’re in denial Conrad. That too can be a blissful place to be in.
> 
> No man is an island …. don’t ask for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee!
> 
> You can keep hitting the ball over the net as long as you like. But how long will you continue if nothing comes back!
> 
> There is no such thing as s.e.l.f.l.e.s.s.n.e.s.s.
> 
> It doesn't exist!


In the same way that one side of a coin can't exist on its own, I think you are both right.

The danger is that in both cases, considering one side without due regard for the other lead to positions that are unsupportable. There is more to claiming your happiness that being a giver without expectation, and selflessness isn't totally mythical.

Mind that you both don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!


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## AFEH

What on earth does that thing mean to you?


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## AFEH

You’ve gone Metrosexual. Right?

If you have never ever be ashamed of being a Man. Don’t do that stuff.


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## Blank

simply put, This is a great thread 

Thanks everyone, I am learning


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## Conrad

Robert,

I fear we're talking past each other here.

What you're describing are boundaries. We both agree those are absolutely essential.

I'm talking about extending yourself past where you're comfortable because of some perceived "payoff" - that the other person will "surely" see your sacrifice.

You know how that's worked for you.





AFEH said:


> Well I don’t agree with that!
> 
> I most certainly have expectations. Expectations that I wont be betrayed, that I wont be lied to, that I wont be stolen from. Expectations that if I’m taken ill I will be looked after. Expectations that my wife wont get into bed with another man. Expectations that I will be forgiven if I err.
> 
> I am absolutely loaded with expectations! And when in some cases my expectations are not met I feel seriously betrayed.
> 
> 
> Giving without the expectations of something in return is surely unconditional love. How long can you give unconditional love getting nothing back without feeling you’re in a void? Without feeling you’re a castaway on a desert island (with no dancing natives!).
> 
> I think maybe you’re in denial Conrad. That too can be a blissful place to be in.
> 
> No man is an island …. don’t ask for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee!
> 
> 
> You can keep hitting the ball over the net as long as you like. But how long will you continue if nothing comes back!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as s.e.l.f.l.e.s.s.n.e.s.s.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't exist!


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## Mavash.

AFEH said:


> I am absolutely loaded with expectations! And when in some cases my expectations are not met I feel seriously betrayed.


Definition of betray: to fail or desert in time of need

I believe I would know the true character of someone well before they got to the point of failing me in my time of need. If I don't have that awareness then it's on me. It would mean I picked the wrong person, stayed too long with that wrong person, failed to stand up for myself and had weak boundaries.

The responsibility for me is me. If I don't look out for me nobody else will regardless of how great THEY are.


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## AFEH

Mavash. said:


> Definition of betray: to fail or desert in time of need
> 
> I believe I would know the true character of someone well before they got to the point of failing me in my time of need. If I don't have that awareness then it's on me. It would mean I picked the wrong person, stayed too long with that wrong person, failed to stand up for myself and had weak boundaries.
> 
> The responsibility for me is me. If I don't look out for me nobody else will regardless of how great THEY are.


Good luck with that!

No man is an island .... some people just don't get it.


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## Middle of Everything

Ray Kinsella: I did it all, I listened to the voices, I did what they told me, and not once did I ask what's in it for me!

Shoeless Joe Jackson: What are you saying, Ray?

Ray Kinsella: I'm saying... what's in it for me?


Being too nice all ways makes me think of this scene from Field of Dreams.

Unfortunately, life isnt a movie, and some people never say anything and continue to get the shaft, all the while thinking the meek shall inherit the earth.


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## AFEH

Mavash. said:


> Definition of betray: to fail or desert in time of need
> 
> I believe I would know the true character of someone well before they got to the point of failing me in my time of need. If I don't have that awareness then it's on me. It would mean I picked the wrong person, stayed too long with that wrong person, failed to stand up for myself and had weak boundaries.
> 
> The responsibility for me is me. If I don't look out for me nobody else will regardless of how great THEY are.


I think that’s a nice sentiment to have. But exceedingly naïve, inexperienced and isolating in its nature.

Why? Because it’s only when we love, are vulnerable, trust and in need that we can be betrayed.

If you chose to walk through your life without loving, without trusting, without being vulnerable then for sure there’s a good chance that you’ll never be betrayed.

But that lack of betrayal will come at a massive cost to your quality of life!


And even then if you are in need and that one person you thought had your back and would help you out doesn’t, you will feel massively betrayed.





That person that you “checked out” and felt safe and secure with when they were say 25 sometimes evolves into a totally different person 30 years later aged fifty-five.


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## RandomDude

=/ Afeh, I have a similar mentality to Mavash

If the missus betrays me, it's also my fault
As much as she has proven her trust, and as vulnerable as I've become for her, I believe in taking responsibility as well


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## frustr8dhubby

Man I hate to jump back into this thread but I am confused.

Of course there is selflessness or there wouldn't be people in the world like Mother Theresa or Ghandi. Now, granted that is atypical but I believe it does exist. But I agree that it flys in the face of human nature.

I know that you all don't believe me or think I am a doormat but I honestly have very few expectations of some "return". Am I bothered sometimes when I don't get some return, sure but that is more because I tend to hope that some people are a little less selfish than I want to believe. (At least not consciously, maybe I am truly delusional?) 

With all of that being said I agree with AFEH to a point that you have to take care of yourself also...


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## AFEH

frustr8dhubby said:


> Man I hate to jump back into this thread but I am confused.
> 
> Of course there is selflessness or there wouldn't be people in the world like *Mother Theresa or Ghandi*. Now, granted that is atypical but I believe it does exist. But I agree that it flys in the face of human nature.
> 
> I know that you all don't believe me or think I am a doormat but I honestly have very few expectations of some "return". Am I bothered sometimes when I don't get some return, sure but that is more because I tend to hope that some people are a little less selfish than I want to believe. (At least not consciously, maybe I am truly delusional?)
> 
> With all of that being said I agree with AFEH to a point that you have to take care of yourself also...


That just depends on your perspective! To some those types of people were the most SELFISH and most SELF-CENTRED in the world! Those types of people are MASSIVELY motivated by their selfishness! That’s how they do and create great things!

You cannot ever take your SELF out of ANYTHING you do. That is an impossibility. Selflessness does not exist.

Anybody who says ego doesn’t exist is in some kind of transmeditation drug inspired trance. 

But we can work at being less self-centred! We can work at creating distance between our self and our ego such that we can actually observe our ego at work. But our ego will at times snap us back in, ala Conrad’s snapping back to his ego demonstrated by his use of “Robert”. And I thought he was getting away from his Me!


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## AFEH

RandomDude said:


> =/ Afeh, I have a similar mentality to Mavash
> 
> If the missus betrays me, it's also my fault
> As much as she has proven her trust, and as vulnerable as I've become for her, I believe in taking responsibility as well


Well I have a different view. A different way of looking at these things, a different philosophy of life.


I believe that I am involved in everything that happens to me in my life. But there are exceptions, caveats. For example if I’m minding my own business, walking down the road and a drunk driver hospitalises me then it’s all on him, nothing on me.



It’s different in a marriage though as we all know. Now I’m FULL TIME ON accepting responsibility for my own behaviour. I always have been and hopefully always will. But in the past I have been way over the top in that, way over the top.


Now that’s enough for me and more or less a full time, committed job.


I do not accept responsibility for ANYONE else’s behaviour! And in exactly the same way I do not hold ANYONE else responsible for my behaviour. I try to at times but it just seems foolish, childish. “She made me do it!” may work for the under sevens, but adults? Never.

Of course people react to what we do and what we say. It’s the type of reaction another has is that makes them the unique person they are.


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## frustr8dhubby

I have to throw this in, just to stoke the fire! 

"For it is in giving that we receive."
Francis of Assisi


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## Racer

Ok, my thoughts on expectations:

Expectations you hold others to is a tricky one and best avoided unless you take some ownership in it. Just dumping the responsibility onto someone else’s shoulders is a cop out.

It’s so hard to explain. But really look hard at where your expectations come from. With me, most of them were based on ideology, fantasy, and my ideas of how things should be. I never really questioned them... It’s like you just picture ‘this is what marriage looks like’ and set up a whole series of expectations around that... They aren’t even based on the character and what you know about your spouse. They are based on what you believe marriage should look like. Then, you set yourself up for failure because what you expect just isn’t who you married. It’s based on a fantasy of how you want it to be. “I do” doesn’t mean they’ll transform into your vision of what you think it should look like. You don’t control them and they don’t owe it to you to be what you want.

Little example: My wife told me I failed to live up to her expectations about how I treated her (respect). She did very little to earn respect, and a lot of damage. ... And me... I expected regular sex. I didn’t try, or romance, or anything in particular besides make a pass... I just expected it because sex is a normal part of marriage and sort of her job now since I have to rely on her. Can you see how just dumping these expectations on each other fully expecting them to ‘just do it’ was the wrong way and set up for major resentment?

So, just own your own little part in how you go about getting what you want. Deal with and set expectations for what you can control; Yourself. So now I own my part; If I want sex, I’d better work at being attractive and desirable. If she wants respect, her actions need to back that up. 

Boundaries are better. These are your personal rules you set out about your thresholds of tolerances. They do not have to accept them, but you will have consequences and ramifications regardless of how they feel about it. That is something you can control. If they don’t like it, they can leave.

My thoughts on giving:

I personally find pleasure in giving. It makes me feel better about myself. I do it now without expecting anything in return at all. I got rid of the covert contracts, and I give what I want to give rather than look for my wife to tell me what she wants for direction... If she recognizes the gift and responds, so much the better. It’s just a little perspective change from the Nice Guy I was. Now when I give, I don’t expect others to really see it and give me what I want: I pursue what I want more directly instead of seeing it as some sort of barter system.

Also, I don’t confuse ‘giving’ with ‘responsibility’. Home chores are a responsibility; I do these, but do not consider it a ‘gift’ to my wife. I do them because they need done. I try like hell to break myself of keeping score. Still struggle here...


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## Deejo

frustr8dhubby said:


> I have to throw this in, just to stoke the fire!
> 
> "For it is in giving that we receive."
> Francis of Assisi


*Terms and Conditions Apply

"If you are not a Franciscan monk, and in the event that you discover that the more you give, in turn the more others expect, want, or take, without thought of thanks or reciprocity in any form, you are a straight up sucker. Please consult with your testicles."

Or as Machiavelli said in more flowery language:

"The fact is that a man who wants to act virtuously in every way necessarily comes to grief among so many who are not virtuous."


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## frustr8dhubby

Hehe, touche'


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## AFEH

Deejo said:


> *Terms and Conditions Apply
> 
> "If you are not a Franciscan monk, and in the event that you discover that the more you give, in turn the more others expect, want, or take, without thought of thanks or reciprocity in any form, you are a straight up sucker. Please consult with your testicles."
> 
> Or as Machiavelli said in more flowery language:
> 
> *"The fact is that a man who wants to act virtuously in every way necessarily comes to grief among so many who are not virtuous."*


I had a chuckle at that one.


These things are why we are, in my mind, far better viewing ourselves as “part of the whole” than as a complete, stand alone individual. Sure we can only change our self, but we must also hold others accountable for their behaviour when it directly affects ourselves.

Sure we should centre on upholding our own values, beliefs etc. and staying good to our word.

But to do all that while at the same time not noting and not taking account of say abusive behaviour of a spouse is but a madness. And to keep on giving “without expectation” of something in return, like doing a deal “The abusive behaviour must end” is just rewarding bad behaviour, which begets more bad behaviour!


There’s a host of “expectations” at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/2117-forum-rules-please-read-first.html. Seems to work!


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## Conrad

Bob,

Those are forum boundaries.

They expect that you'll follow them.

Nobody put them out there expecting to GET something for them.


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## Conrad

AFEH said:


> I think that’s a nice sentiment to have. But exceedingly naïve, inexperienced and isolating in its nature.
> 
> Why? Because it’s only when we love, are vulnerable, trust and in need that we can be betrayed.
> 
> If you chose to walk through your life without loving, without trusting, without being vulnerable then for sure there’s a good chance that you’ll never be betrayed.
> 
> But that lack of betrayal will come at a massive cost to your quality of life!
> 
> 
> And even then if you are in need and that one person you thought had your back and would help you out doesn’t, you will feel massively betrayed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That person that you “checked out” and felt safe and secure with when they were say 25 sometimes evolves into a totally different person 30 years later aged fifty-five.



Bob,

It's clear you are still angry as hell at her.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Those are forum boundaries.
> 
> They expect that you'll follow them.
> 
> Nobody put them out there expecting to GET something for them.


Of course they expected to get something from their “expectations”. Those expectations came about from a clear and highly defined “vision” of what a marriage forum is all about!

Sure things will have been added to and evolved over time to capture and prevent unthought-of abusive behaviour that crops up now and then.

Why do you think the “expectations” are enforced if there’s nothing expected from their existence?


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> It's clear you are still angry as hell at her.


It’s the betrayal. It’s the emotions of being betrayed. I’m working on it.

What I’ve found is that we can be bonded by both love and hatred. The latter is very difficult for me to accept but unless I do I’ll be in denial and I’ll never understand what happened and why.

I feel she’s repulsive and every day push her away from me. But that thought bonds me to her. It’s crazy but the negative bond is a strong as my love once was. I don’t like it. I even feel as though I’m betraying her memory. It’s crazy stuff. But apart from all that I have a really good life.

Nobody talks much about betrayal and its affects here. I’m soon to start a thread on it.


Conrad, a think a man should keep a weathered eye on what he gets back for what he gives. To keep things in balance. To make certain he’s not being taken advantage of.


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## RandomDude

^ For me the only way to deal with my past betrayals was to accept responsibility for them, including my own stupidity, I learnt from my mistakes, learnt how to be wiser, and that gave me peace. =/


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## Lilac23

frustr8dhubby said:


> Well my intention was to leave the house after the new year. There is just NO way to do that financially right now so I am probably going to move out of the bedroom for now...


That sounds nice of you.


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## farsidejunky

Lilac23 said:


> That sounds nice of you.


Holy zombie thread, @Lilac23. But a good one nonetheless. 



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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