# 10+ Years, married early. Not sure if wife is happy still...



## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

Hi all. I am in my thirties, and have been mostly happily married for just over the last 10 years. My wife and I met when we were in college, and have been together ever since. We've been married just a little over 10 years, and lately have been drifting apart. We have two small children, and she is a great mother to them. For the past few years, it's seemed like her sex drive has been near zero. However, it seems like her interest in sex ebbs and flows over time, like every 6 months or so she'll want some intimacy, then crickets. During the lulls, I have tried initiating so much, hugs, kisses, backrubs, and usually get the 'we can if you want to' shrug. Not very confidence inspiring, and I deal with low self-esteem to begin with. We have not gone to counseling for this yet, but I am hoping to get us both into counseling as soon as possible, to work through our current situation.

To make things worse, we have dealt with infidelity several times in our past, from her end. This typically manifests in online interactions only (according to her). Over the past year, she has been separating herself physically and emotionally from me and the kids. She will spend many hours to herself, engrossed in her phone. I have tried to get her to spend more time with me and the kids, and usually am met with the same indifference, shrug, or just get ignored ('you're gonna miss the movie!' or 'dinner's ready!', and she sometimes will then connect again).

It should come as no surprise that the infidelity has started again. I took my time, and gave her several different options. I played dumb, and mentioned an app I noticed on one of her devices, that's used for anonymous chat. She had an excuse, "Oh, that must have gotten downloaded when I clicked on an ad or something. I'll go ahead and delete that silly thing!" Yeah... Coincidentally, her libido had also picked up around this time, so things seemed to be getting better for us. My wife (in the past) has been very adventurous sexually, until her libido 'off switch' was somehow triggered. I figured this was a good sign, maybe we were getting closer together.

About a week later, I saw from afar that her device had the telltale 'word bubbles' back and forth, and that she was engaged in lots of back and forth typing, when she said she was watching videos, or surfing online. When I looked at her phone messages, nothing out of the ordinary. I was able to look further on her device, and found another similar app. I logged in and viewed several very interesting conversations, photos, and even videos (I didn't have the heart to actually watch the videos, but saw they were of her) being sent to seemingly random guys. . I stayed up all night, and arranged my thoughts into a notepad. In the morning, after I got her some coffee, and gave her some time to wake up, I asked "Are you ready for an awkward conversation?" I started out very simply, asking "What is X app for?" She tried to deflect that this was for researching our recent bedroom forays. I replied "OK, with that in mind...I want you to know I've looked through the messages." She was quiet, and then said something like "OK." My reply, "So, where do we go from here?" I asked her to then open her page on the app, she kept trying to scroll past the embarrassing stuff. I told her that if she was embarrassed for her husband to see, then she should be embarrassed for random strangers to be seeing it as well. After hashing things out, I told her the worst part was the lying. I know she's into things I am not (she has over the past few years come out as bisexual, and is a bit of an exhibitionist). I joked (not funny though) that lately, it seemed like the only thing she wasn't into was her husband. 

Trying to salvage things, I told her that if she can be open with me, I can get over some hang-ups that I have had. Part of her thing is that she wants to feel desired, and apparently I am not able to fulfill that role ("You're my husband, you kinda have to!"). I told her I will always love her, and that if this interaction is something that she needs, as long as she is open with me about it, we can try that moving forward. She has deleted all of the 'most embarrassing' things, and we both now are able to view/login to the app. Things that 'do it' for her, don't really do it for me, but if that's what we need to have in our relationship for it to work, I am willing to step outside of my comfort zone. 

To put this into maybe more perspective, my parents are divorced, her parents are still together. As a child of divorce, I would do almost anything to spare our kids from going through the emotional trauma that I had to go through. My parents split up because (from as far as I know) they drifted apart, and my mom cheated first emotionally, then physically, with the man she would date for the remainder of my childhood (they are no longer together). I wonder if this is coloring my interpretation of what is happening in my own marriage. 

I have asked my wife is she is happy ("Yes, of course!"), if she enjoys the life that we have built together (we have a nice house, in a lovely neighborhood, several pets, two wonderful kids; "Yes, of course!"), and if we can just be for each other, or if I will ever be enough for her (Yes, of course!"). I busted out the "Put yourself in my situation; if you saw I was hiding and sending **** pics to random women, how would that make you feel?" The response did surprise me, she said that honestly, she probably would be ok with it. I've toyed with the idea of creating an account for myself (and letting her know/sharing the login info) for doing just that, to put this theory to the test, but I wouldn't get anything out of it, it's not my kink. Sex with my wife is.

As any typical human does, I've viewed a decent amount of 'adult video' in my life, as has my wife. However, her tastes vary quite a bit from mine (she showed me one of her videos when we were starting to open up again before the infidelity, and it was pretty intense, not something I had done before, or really had an interest in). She joked along the lines of "Oh, it's been SOOOOO LOONG since I've watched Vanilla porn, I forgot!" 

After our Big Talk...I've asked some other kind of probing questions..."You mentioned that you messed around when we were broken up that one time...but what really happened?" I try my damnedest not to dwell on the past...but now that we are being open, I have been testing those depths. And, I've found that what I was told at the time was 'nothing' was more than nothing. She has been into less vanilla things for a long time, but mostly in the online dabbling, or in viewing/reading kinky stuff. I told her that when it goes from viewing/reading to doing, and sending photos/videos, that's a whole other thing. 

I want to move ahead together, but I still have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, and my whole body trembles with frustration and depression at times. This varies to feelings of openness and hopefulness, that maybe we can create a new relationship, full of trust and adventuring together, and leave the past behind. But, I don't know if I can face being betrayed and lied to time after time. One of the notes I typed was "What's going to make this time different?"

Sorry for the wall of text. I need some outside perspective on this. Is our marriage salvageable? Is this relationship salvageable? I would do anything in my power to try, and I would hope she would as well. We are trying to find a marriage counselor that is understanding of the situation's ins and outs (infidelity = bad, but kink = OK together?) but have not gotten any one available yet. The part I struggle with is the sharing. I don't know if she will be happy with only my attention and affection. To me, her attention and affection towards me has been down to a low level for so long, I had stopped trying. I am also working from home currently, taking care of the kids when they are home, and trying to keep the house sanely ordered. I don't feel appreciated, and haven't for a long time. She has recently said along the lines of "I don't deserve you!" and I told her that we deserve each other, that I love her and will always love her. I have tried to be accepting, and have let her know to not feel any shame in what she wants and needs, as long as she gets it (mostly, hopefully) from me. 

Let me know what you all think. Thanks in advance.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Bro you are going to get some honest responses on this site, it might feel like we are attacking you but we are just trying to wake you up.

Dealing with cheating on her end SEVERAL times...............WTF?? How many dudes have run through your "happy" wife? You talk about protecting your kids from divorce, what about growing up with a father who is nothing but an ATM and basically a rug that gets walked on? Is that good for them? Are you setting a good example, do you hope your kids end up in a so called marriage like yours? If you wouldn't want this for your kids (that might not be yours), why would you want it for yourself?


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## johndoe12299 (Jul 12, 2021)

yeah, this is not going to be what you want to hear. Dealing with her cheating several times?? You are just her doormat man. You have to wake up and smell the roses. She is having her cake and eating it too. We have all gone/are going through the very same thing you are. Time to man up and kick her to the curb. No "i invested all this time, what about the kids??"...you will be much better off without her in your life. It takes time, lots of emotional instability, but it will be worth it.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I told her the worst part was the lying.


This is the dagger in the heart that many people can't recover from. It will taint things forever. 



EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I busted out the "Put yourself in my situation; if you saw I was hiding and sending **** pics to random women, how would that make you feel?" *The response did surprise me*, she said that honestly, she probably would be ok with it.


Her response didn't surprise me. It goes back to the first quote about her lying. I'm not saying she's lying about actually being ok with you doing what she's done. She's lying to lessen the embarrassment for herself getting caught. 

Is it salvageable?

All things are possible, but I'm not sensing she's altogether interested in doing so. Seems like an Eat/Pray/Love situation with a heavy side dish of YOLO and FOMO.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

The biggest lie she has told you? The one where she would be ok with you having someone else.

People with an ego like hers, would not be happy with you doing that. And get dangerous when you do. Because it would make her look bad.

And she is bad.

You seem really sweet and gentle and loving. That’s not a bad attribute to have. It’s especially beautiful, because eventually, you’re going to be different.

You are going to be a force to be reckoned with one day, people will nervously look down when you make eye contact.

Not now, but one day, nothing will break you. And you’ll still be that kind and gentle man.

Do you think you can believe this? Maybe not now, but could you?

That’s the beauty of bad people who hurt you. They are a gift. Pass the parcel if you like, now you’re at the first layer of disappointment.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Honest opinion, I don't know how you.can stand to be in the same room as her.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You can’t fix her. She wouldhave to do that.
Right now you are her chump because you allow yourself to be. You are the only one that can do that to yourself.

Look up serial cheater.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

The problem you have here is the questions you asked should not directed to us but to her...you are clearly more invested in this marriage than her, and sadly you can not carry this relationship on your own...how many chances are you going to give before you come to the realization that she is a serial cheater who will not stop....and unfortunately you continue to reward her bad behavior by doing nothing....but if you want my answer to your question...no it is not salvageable by you doing all the work....she sees you as a doormat.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

EarlyMM, where will you draw the line as to how much cheating you will tolerate from her and what are you willing to do if she continues down this path? Part of living a relatively happy existence is learning and dealing with folks that don't want the same relationship you desire. What are you prepared to do if your wife is unable to give up her proclivities?


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## moulinyx (May 30, 2019)

Is she just wanting online attention or is she wanting physical interaction outside of the marriage? Her jokes about “vanilla porn” do sound like her needs are probably not being met. You two will need to figure out what compromise is feasible for your marriage. I personally would not be able to forgive simply because of the lie, which is also what you have said.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

moulinyx said:


> Is she just wanting online attention or is she wanting physical interaction outside of the marriage? Her jokes about “vanilla porn” do sound like her needs are probably not being met. You two will need to figure out what compromise is feasible for your marriage. I personally would not be able to forgive simply because of the lie, which is also what you have said.


I don't know...she's said that she wanted to feel sexy and appreciated, but that's also a two-way street. I have tried to get her more interested in me, and gave up when she wasn't into it. I have been glad to spice up our bedroom routine lately, but after the infidelity, for me at least it's put a damper on things. I don't want to keep being suspicious, I hate that I am tempted to keep looking at the phone, to see if she's on to the next thing. Her rationale with hiding it was that "I didn't want to hurt you." I'm not sure I understand that reasoning, as finding out the lie hurt so badly.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

VladDracul said:


> EarlyMM, where will you draw the line as to how much cheating you will tolerate from her and what are you willing to do if she continues down this path? Part of living a relatively happy existence is learning and dealing with folks that don't want the same relationship you desire. What are you prepared to do if your wife is unable to give up her proclivities?


 I told her that I would draw the line at anything physical. "Are you looking for another relationship? That's something I can't go along with." She said no, she was just embarrassed by her desires, and was looking for a semi-anonymous outlet. I'm working on accepting that, as long as she tells me the truth, no more lies and hiding. But I don't know if/how I can believe her.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

This is happening because you’ve been passive and weak. Your wife doesn’t respect you, and a woman cannot be attracted to you, desire you and behave appropriately as a wife if she doesn’t respect you. You have been a doormat, allowing her to behave badly, disrespect you and your family and treat you badly. That’s not respectable.

Women (and probably men to some extent) will behave as badly as you let them. And you have allowed her to behave very badly, showing her that you are not a strong husband or man. She has no respect or desire for you. Women respect strength and leadership, and despise weak men.

The question now is, what are you going to do?
1. You need to ascertain exactly how far her betrayal has gone.
That means no more confronting, mouth shut and eyes open. You need to go into full investigation mode, as there is likely much more you don’t know.
VARs, phone/device monitoring, PI if you can afford it.

2. You need to set hard (even extreme) boundaries, and you need to set them right now. Do not negotiate with her, tell her exactly what you will and will not accept in your marriage. If she doesn’t like it she can leave.
No messaging other men - at all, ever.
No messaging apps on her phone, at all.
You get full access to all her devices.

Require her to write out a complete timeline of her infidelity and inappropriate behavior in detail. Tell her that there will be a polygraph to confirm the completeness and accuracy of what she has written. And do it. You do not trust her, she’s not worthy of trust at this point - so if there is to be any consideration of reconciliation, this is a requirement. If you’re willing to try to forgive and move forward, you need to know the extent of what you’re forgiving.

3. Disclose her infidelity to family and friends. It’s not vindictive, it is a reasonable, just, and necessary consequences of her choices. Do not sweep this under the rug, as you probably have in the past.

Once all this has been done, and you have a better picture of what’s going on, you need to question if you really want to move forward with this person.
Or or you might not even make it that far. She’s not in love with you and doesn’t respect you, so she may just decide you’re not worth jumping through all those hoops.
Either way, at least you’ll know where you stand.


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## johndoe12299 (Jul 12, 2021)

read your OP again...WHY do you awnt to "make things work" with this woman. She has detached from you, your kids, and the family unit so she can share videos and messages with "randoms" on the internet? Man, get it together! You deserve much better than this. She is checked the hell out and will keep up her ways as long as you keep allowing her to.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

Isn’t it ironic that the people wanting to feel sexy and appreciated, have zero idea how make their own spouse feel sexy and appreciated? Hmmm, how do you get to feel like a man with a woman like that??

Don’t play detective, don’t even ask her anything anymore, no more why this why that, my apologies for putting down your wife. But she sounds stupid. She IS stupid.

Get sexy and feel sexy. Get a haircut, grow a beard or trim your beard, a nice clean white t-shirt is a small start. She is not going to make you feel sexy. She’s hopeless in that department, and I’d say despite what you describe, I don’t really believe sex with her is all that hot. Who would really truly want to have sex with a women hiding behind an online persona???

There’s good sex to be had out there, I hope one day you’ll get that. I don’t believe you haven’t fulfilled her needs in the bedroom, so I wouldn’t even agree to the new stuff she’s trying. You see, the rules will change again. You’ll keep trying this and trying that, and next week it’ll be a different problem. Stop allowing her to make any of this your fault.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Why don't you want better?

You are not going to be able to make her into a good and faithful wife, it's not in her nature. Some people and situations are a lost cause, what I don't understand is why you act like you are? There are lots of women out there who don't repeatedly disrespect you and yearn to the life of a porn star.

But you know who she is, the issue isn't her it's you, why don't you want better for yourself?


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

the vanilla word is what GET TO ME 
it is like your wife has two sides her home life that is important to her and this other world that seems to be 
for the moment just on line 
getting help will be hard as to get someone that she can open up to and that you can open up to I think you need to try first to get one on one counseling ,

what she calls vanilla is it vanilla 
and is what she seems to be into so wild 
everyone seems to have a different idea of what kinks are 
I for one was surprised to find that some of what I and even what my wife are into fall into kink world 

I don't know what is the driving force in your wife on this , 
it seems to be same form of fantasize world that she is living out on the net 
one big difference in wen and women is that men seem to be into image more that is why porn is more for the men than women 
women seem to be into romantic books like mills and boon or a big hit was some of the bdsm related books that anyone in the bdsm world seem to look on as very bad representation of the bdsm world like 50 shades 

as I am no expert but dealing with fantasize world is not easy and often needs pro help that know what they are playing with 

I hope you find the right help for you and her and that you keep the lines open so you get through this and keep the kids safe and away from this 

as kids get older they have a way of finding out what we think they don't know


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@EarlyMarriedMan have you considered counselling, as a couple and individuals?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Is this relationship salvageable?


No. It's salvageable only if you put up with your wife's behaviour. She doesn't even seem to understand what she's doing.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I told her that I would draw the line at anything physical. "Are you looking for another relationship? That's something I can't go along with." She said no, she was just embarrassed by her desires, and was looking for a semi-anonymous outlet. I'm working on accepting that, as long as she tells me the truth, no more lies and hiding. But I don't know if/how I can believe her.


Can you dumb down for my benefit an explanation of what she is doing that you consider cheating? What exactly is she doing on the internet visiting dating sites, talking with other guys, sending out/receiving photos, et cetera.) ? Has she actually had a fling with another guy or female? Does her turning down the volume on sex with you correspond to her increased activity on the internet/phone/social media? What are her desires you cannot or won't fulfill (threesomes, open marriage, S&M, boyfriend/girlfriend on the side) ?


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

OnTheFly said:


> This is the dagger in the heart that many people can't recover from. It will taint things forever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's FOMO?


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

CountryMike said:


> What's FOMO?


Fear Of Missing Out

Lost youth, trying to gain it back before it's too late, and/or seeing others whooping it up on Instagram/social media, and thinking, ''I want a piece of that fun''


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

F


VladDracul said:


> Can you dumb down for my benefit an explanation of what she is doing that you consider cheating? What exactly is she doing on the internet visiting dating sites, talking with other guys, sending out/receiving photos, et cetera.) ? Has she actually had a fling with another guy or female? Does her turning down the volume on sex with you correspond to her increased activity on the internet/phone/social media? What are her desires you cannot or won't fulfill (threesomes, open marriage, S&M, boyfriend/girlfriend on the side) ?


For me, the big thing was the spending time away from family, actively sexting with photos and video, while lying about it and hiding it. She created a profile on an application dedicated to the kinks that she is currently curious about (mainly BDSM), but from her words, this was about exploring and learning, for us to use as a couple...well, that would hold up more if I were included from the start. Now I am, but if I didn't confront her about this, I'm not sure what would've happened. She has gone on public, exhibitionistic 'dares' from this site, and posted text/photos of solo (according to her) adventures. Again, taking time away from husband and family to do this. She has said that any of the online stuff hasn't spilled over into physical, and I guess I have to trust her word, for what it's worth. I am not interested in having any other people in our marriage other than the two of us, and she knows this. Side physical relationships are not an option, and I've told her that. As far as bf/gf on the side, yes, I'm worried that my 'vanilla'-ness, and nice-guy attributes are going to cause her to seek a 'bad boy' type relationship, outside of our marriage. She has had online sexting stuff with an ex in our past, that was very hurtful when I discovered. We've been down this road before, and I don't want to do this again in 5 or 10 years. When I called out her lying recently, I said 'don't treat me like I'm an idiot.' If you're not happy in our relationship, tell me to me face, don't sneak around and try to fill in the missing blanks on your own.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Marriage... it ain't for everyone. Some may say, myself included, that it's probably not for most people. You're discovering that your wife is in the majority. You picked a broken model, my man. Send it back.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> @EarlyMarriedMan have you considered counselling, as a couple and individuals?


YES! My god yes, I need someone who can untangle this f'ed up situation from an outside perspective! We don't really have any close friends (I have two great friends that would never forgive her if I talked to them about this, so I can't). Then there's family, but I am pretty sure they would side with me on this one, and I don't want to ruin her relationship with her family either (they wouldn't let her live this down I think). I have called, and am calling several different counselors to see if we can get in anywhere ASAP. I don't want to ruin our relationship any further trying to fix things on my own.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> As far as bf/gf on the side, yes, I'm worried that my 'vanilla'-ness, and nice-guy attributes are going to cause her to seek a 'bad boy' type relationship, outside of our marriage.


She needs a Dom from what I'm reading. And she's into other kinks, as well. Unless you have unexplored kinks that come close or match hers the reality is you do risk her looking for someone who can. She's already getting these needs met to an extent online as a stop gap measure. At some point, if it hasn't happened already, she'll either seek out or just find someone.



EarlyMarriedMan said:


> If you're not happy in our relationship, tell me to me face, don't sneak around and try to fill in the missing blanks on your own.


She won't. Total honesty from her would likely include a lot of relationship ending statements. She's not willing to lose her lifestyle, her social beard, or her stability and security so she will never flat out say her truth.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

MJJEAN said:


> She needs a Dom from what I'm reading. And she's into other kinks, as well. Unless you have unexplored kinks that come close or match hers the reality is you do risk her looking for someone who can. She's already getting these needs met to an extent online as a stop gap measure. At some point, if it hasn't happened already, she'll either seek out or just find someone.
> 
> 
> She won't. Total honesty from her would likely include a lot of relationship ending statements. She's not willing to lose her lifestyle, her social beard, or her stability and security so she will never flat out say her truth.


I told her that if that's what she wants (a dom, BDSM, whatever) I would be glad to be that for her. But, I'm naturally a pretty plain guy. My only kink is passionate, frequent sex with one partner, call me weird.🤷‍♂️ When she started getting bored ('we can if you want to'), and never initiating, I think we both stopped trying, then all of a sudden, her libido flared back up, but was not kindled by me. She's always been into kinky stuff in the background, but I always viewed that as more of a foreplay type thing, before getting into consensual, passionate, married (normal?) sex. Like, I can get into this stuff for her, and for us, but if she's still not going to be satisfied in our monogamous marriage, what's the point? I have asked if I'm enough for her, if I can ever be enough for her, and she said "Of course!" But, actions speak louder than words.

I talked more with her this morning before she left for work, and let her know that I'm not OK. I have been faking being OK, getting back into sex (makeup sex I guess?), but I let her know I'm still super pissed off at her, and can't trust her. I told her I don't know if, or how, we can fix this. We need a counselor, but for now, venting on this forum, and hearing what is or isn't normal or healthy in a relationship, seems to be helping. Reading some of these responses has made me realize how not OK I am with things as they are, mostly the trust and honesty aspects.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Reading some of these responses has made me realize how not OK I am with things as they are


That's most likely because you've been hiding behind a wall of fear and insecurities that made you a pushover. Your wife can and does senses this and since it looks like she's the one with the upper hand in the who cares less in the relationship department she's been doing pretty much as she pleases, while you've been begging, doing the "pick me dance", the one one wanting to keep everything together (in other words forcing the issues), while she continues to disrespect you. 

Dude, love is a natural organic flowing thing, if there's an imbalance then is not natural is forced. This is your situation. I doubt very much that your wife sees you as an alpha man; the most likely scenario is that she's been seeing you as the beta provider she married. The one that is stable, is there to take care of things while in her fantasies her mind tells her that the men out there are what makes her juices flow. In other words you have become "plan B", Mr. right now. Make not mistake here, if she were to find a man that would as much divert her attention in a one to one real situation, not online, depending on how the situation is presented to her by the other man she might ditch you without regard, while you're left, meekly and weakly begging to stay together.

You do not have a healthy or normal situation. You has been way to weak in letting things develop with her dalliances online with other men, which is one of the reasons she has not respect for you. I tell you, if you were to do a temporary separation right now, before she's settled she'll be out dating, while you most likely would be there just waiting for the separation to be over. You should read books like "No More Mr. Nice Man". Yes, your fears and consequently your appeasement behavior has made you weak as a man. Women do not respect weak men, women are attracted to strong, secure, no nonsense men that take charge and won't allow disrespect. Instinctively women understand this and when they don't see it you get what you got. Wake up my friend, time to be a strong determined man that shows what he wants and makes it known and understood, because if not met is goodbye. You need to find you self-worth, your pride, your dignity, your self-respect, then you can start tossing those trauma induced fears in reference to marriage and children. We as parents teach by example. Someday your children will understand perfectly what's going on in your marriage dynamics, and will learn by your responses as to what's normal or not, what's respectful or not, then they will behave accordingly.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I told her that if that's what she wants (a dom, BDSM, whatever) I would be glad to be that for her. But, I'm naturally a pretty plain guy. My only kink is passionate, frequent sex with one partner, call me weird.🤷‍♂️ When she started getting bored ('we can if you want to'), and never initiating, I think we both stopped trying, then all of a sudden, her libido flared back up, but was not kindled by me. She's always been into kinky stuff in the background, but I always viewed that as more of a foreplay type thing, before getting into consensual, passionate, married (normal?) sex. Like, I can get into this stuff for her, and for us, but if she's still not going to be satisfied in our monogamous marriage, what's the point? I have asked if I'm enough for her, if I can ever be enough for her, and she said "Of course!" But, actions speak louder than words.
> 
> I talked more with her this morning before she left for work, and let her know that I'm not OK. I have been faking being OK, getting back into sex (makeup sex I guess?), but I let her know I'm still super pissed off at her, and can't trust her. I told her I don't know if, or how, we can fix this. We need a counselor, but for now, venting on this forum, and hearing what is or isn't normal or healthy in a relationship, seems to be helping. Reading some of these responses has made me realize how not OK I am with things as they are, mostly the trust and honesty aspects.


You can't be her Dom if she asks you to do it, you understand that I hope.


You should tell those friends and your family, especially her family. Don't go to them just tearing her down. Go to them asking for help in talking some sense into her. Calmly and clearly explain what she is doing, how you fear it is sending both of you down a path that will break up your family and you hope they can influence her. You may even want her present while doing this. This is the action a strong and confident man would take to save his marriage. Your wife may actually appreciate that you finally grew a backbone.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I told her that if that's what she wants (a dom, BDSM, whatever) I would be glad to be that for her. But, I'm naturally a pretty plain guy. My only kink is passionate, frequent sex with one partner, call me weird.🤷‍♂️ When she started getting bored ('we can if you want to'), and never initiating, I think we both stopped trying, then all of a sudden, her libido flared back up, but was not kindled by me.


The thing is you can offer to be her Dom, but it's more than actions. There is a big difference between willing and truly into it and she will feel that difference.

It seems she isn't much interested in vanilla sex. When men online share her kinks with her she becomes interested in sex again. This is a repeating cycle, by what you've indicated. It seems clear that vanilla sex is not satisfying to her.



EarlyMarriedMan said:


> She's always been into kinky stuff in the background, but I always viewed that as more of a foreplay type thing, before getting into consensual, passionate, married (normal?) sex.


Yeah, that's not how it works. For some BDSM is required for every encounter to be satisfying. For some it's something to be indulged when there is time to set up a scene and do it right, but more vanilla sex is still very enjoyable in between sessions. And for some it's a casual part of their overall lifestyle practiced both in and out of the bedroom. Kinks aren't just sexual. They are psychological and emotional, but happen to be tied to the sexual. You can't meet that need by being a bit more aggressive, say, for a few minutes or so during foreplay. That's more of a tease than anything else. A promise never delivered upon.



EarlyMarriedMan said:


> but if she's still not going to be satisfied in our monogamous marriage, what's the point? I have asked if I'm enough for her, if I can ever be enough for her, and she said "Of course!" But, actions speak louder than words.


I'm a switch married to another switch. A switch is someone comfortable in both the role of Dom and the role of submissive. We both get sexual and psychological needs met playing those roles for each other. We also have amazing vanilla sex when neither is feeling the need to Dom/sub or when we don't have time because that alarm goes off early in the morning. We're quite happily monogamous. I have friends and family who are also kinky and monogamous. It's not monogamy that's the problem. Many kinksters are quite happily monogamous. It's the unmet needs that are the problem. 

You're right. She has needs you aren't meeting and she's chosen to have those needs met by other people online. You aren't "enough" for her because she is actively seeking and receiving outside satisfaction of sexual, emotional, and psychological need.



EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Reading some of these responses has made me realize how not OK I am with things as they are, mostly the trust and honesty aspects.


Which is a very bad place to be. Kinky relationships are built on trust and honesty. Both with self and partner. You can't even attempt to meet her needs or repair the marriage without her being willing to be totally honest with both herself and you.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You should tell those friends and your family, especially her family. Don't go to them just tearing her down. Go to them asking for help in talking some sense into her. Calmly and clearly explain what she is doing, how you fear it is sending both of you down a path that will break up your family and you hope they can influence her. You may even want her present while doing this. This is the action a strong and confident man would take to save his marriage. Your wife may actually appreciate that you finally grew a backbone.


Are you seriously suggesting he go tell her friends and family that she is a bisexual kinkster who is getting her needs met online? Because that can only end badly.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MJJEAN said:


> Are you seriously suggesting he go tell her friends and family that she is a bisexual kinkster who is getting her needs met online? Because that can only end badly.


She is cheating on him. The light of day is the only answer in my opinion.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

> have asked my wife is she is happy ("Yes, of course!"), if she enjoys the life that we have built together (we have a nice house, in a lovely neighborhood, several pets, two wonderful kids; "Yes, of course!"), and if we can just be for each other, or if I will ever be enough for her (Yes, of course!")


Well of course she's happy. She has a nice, compliant husband who helps her with the kids, helps around the house, pays the bills and gives her a comfortable lifestyle, all the while allowing her to hook up with other men on the side. 

And if you think all she is doing is online sexting and pics, you are sadly deluding yourself. You cannot monitor her 24 hours a day. All it takes is a fifteen minute hookup in another guy's car in an alley for her to have sex with him. My ex wife used to do that. She would go shopping: fifteen minutes to run in the store to pickup washing detergent, and another thirty minutes to meet her lover in his SUV behind the supermarket, then ten minutes to get back home to me. 

Your story makes me so damn mad. What happened to you in your past life that would allow you to let another human being treat you this way?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I told her that if that's what she wants (a dom, BDSM, whatever) I would be glad to be that for her. But, I'm naturally a pretty plain guy. My only kink is passionate, frequent sex with one partner, call me weird.🤷‍♂️ When she started getting bored ('we can if you want to'), and never initiating, I think we both stopped trying, then all of a sudden, her libido flared back up, but was not kindled by me. She's always been into kinky stuff in the background, but I always viewed that as more of a foreplay type thing, before getting into consensual, passionate, married (normal?) sex. Like, I can get into this stuff for her, and for us, but if she's still not going to be satisfied in our monogamous marriage, what's the point? I have asked if I'm enough for her, if I can ever be enough for her, and she said "Of course!" But, actions speak louder than words.
> 
> I talked more with her this morning before she left for work, and let her know that I'm not OK. I have been faking being OK, getting back into sex (makeup sex I guess?), but I let her know I'm still super pissed off at her, and can't trust her. I told her I don't know if, or how, we can fix this. We need a counselor, but for now, venting on this forum, and hearing what is or isn't normal or healthy in a relationship, seems to be helping. Reading some of these responses has made me realize how not OK I am with things as they are, mostly the trust and honesty aspects.




So is the line nothing physical, if she crosses that line then the marriage is over? Here is my concern and I’m sure yours......from the start she has been moving that line to the point that you both know she will crosses it (is she hasn’t done already) eventually and then you will try to justify it so you don’t lose her....news break you already lost her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

How often is she away from the home without you?

Cheaters lie, a lot. Considering everything she says a lie and everything she does the truth. When you look at it that way, it is obvious what she is doing.

99.9% chance she is physically or has physically cheated on you.

If you allow someone to walk all over you and your relationship like that you are essentially a doormat.

You basically offered to reconcile without ever knowing the full truth about what she is up to and it is ok for her to get a dom?

You have a serial cheater on your hands.

Get an STD test and do some homework... check your phone records etc.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@EarlyMarriedMan years back I used to be a big player in the dating scene, I will tell you this from experience, it's only a matter of time before the right candidate "The Alpha Man" crosses her path and it WILL go physical!
I have read a story (in another relationship forum) about a betrayed American husband who found out that his wife was a Sub to a Dom who lives in Europe, he found out that the strange type of neckless that she was warring was a type of collar that signifies the ownership to another man, that the other man (The Dom) owns her!
He controlled every thing about her from over sees, what she wares and when is she allowed to have sex with her husband, and if he requested that she flies to him, she will!

She has a history of lying and deceiving you, there is a possibility that she physically cheated by some sort of a hook-up with someone, since it's very easy these days using dating and hook-up Apps!
A woman can basically download a dating App and hook-up with someone in less than an hour!

This is hard to read:


DudeInProgress said:


> This is happening because you’ve been passive and weak. Your wife doesn’t respect you, and a woman cannot be attracted to you, desire you and behave appropriately as a wife if she doesn’t respect you. You have been a doormat, allowing her to behave badly, disrespect you and your family and treat you badly. That’s not respectable.
> 
> Women (and probably men to some extent) will behave as badly as you let them. And you have allowed her to behave very badly, showing her that you are not a strong husband or man. She has no respect or desire for you. Women respect strength and leadership, and despise weak men.


But it's the truth!
If your wife doesn't respect you things will turn to worse!
When you found out that she was sexting her ex-bf years back and handled it like boss (example: serve her divorce papers and tell her she has 6 months to prove she will be a safe partner before it's finalized) she would have respected you!
Sometimes our actions while it's coming from a loving and caring place serves the opposite and backfires!

A rule of thumb: *The spouse that cares less about the relationship holds all the power!*

She seems to care less about the marriage while you're doing all the work trying to save it, to the extent that you caved in and allowed her to use the App!
Time for you to change this relationship dynamics and up your Alpha traits and care less about saving it unless she wants to!!
Breaking news: She will want to save it, trust me!
The challenge is how do you know she really wants to be with you as a husband and has a burning desire for you and not because you're the safety net Nice Guys Beta Provider, babysitter, the feminine husband who does the chores around the house!

You need to change this relationship dynamics and put your foot down and up your Alpha traits where you become in control!
And you need to sit and think if you want to be the *marriage warden* where you constantly checking after her and snooping behind her!

The problem comes here: if you say yes, I can be the *marriage warden *until she fixes her issues with a therapist, she will lose more respect because that exactly what weak Beta Doormats do, they crush their pride and lose their dignity because they are not confident that they will find someone else better (AKA She is the best I can do) and they usually convince themselves that they are doing it for the kids, finance, the poor wife has childhood trauma, [INSERT REASONS] …Etc. The result is you bending backwards while you lose your true self in all of this just to keep her around, she will keep testing you and pushing the boundaries and you will continue bending backwards putting all types of excuses (Kids ..etc) until she finds someone else and asks for open marriage or she leaves you because she doesn't care if you divorce her!

But the fact is that many betrayed husbands are co-dependent (weak) and have no confidence (She is the best I can do), and if you think about it, that's the core problem for many men, co-dependence and no confidence and ANY women can sense that easily, I mean very easily because it's part of their biological structure, leading these women to lose respect and desire for their men, and causes them to cross many red lines known that these men are doormats and they are not going anywhere!

If you read the thousands of sad stories here and many other infidelity forums you will find lots of facts, one of them facts is, if your wife/GF has burning desire for you she will cross all the self set lines and boundaries in order to satisfy you in or outside the bedroom. Example: They will do Anal even if she is not into it and hates it!
And that's what many women did with their affair partners (AP), they did things they never did with their spouses, and even after reconciliation they didn't do these things and it's always off-limits for the husband, hence why many betrayed husbands return and complain about it (Yes very weak, because they stayed and have no confidence in finding someone else) !!

When a women has a burning desire for you and enters your frame she will do many things to satisfy you in order to keep you, and she will ditch the things that you don't like!
What's happening is that you are now entering her frame not the other way around!

What decisions you make now will echo into your entire relationship and how your kids will see you in the future as a man of principles, so think wisely taking into account your dignity and honor!


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## Trident (May 23, 2018)

This is no way to live.

Asking her questions hoping for a shred of truth? It will never happen. Even if it did, so what?

It's not like she cares enough about you to stop.


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Question.

Explain to us why, when she's sexting other men, sending pics + videos, that what upsets you most about this, by doing so it's taking away time from you and your family?

Your wife is letting her lustful sexual desires come between you and her and your marriage and unfortunately you're letting her do this.

She has a history of cheating in the past (with an ex) and now she's pulling all of this BS and and your response is NOT to shut it down and have firm boundaries but to beg her to let you be a part of her lustful desires?

The reason you can't be a part of it is it takes the taboo of what she's wanting to experience away. She does NOT want to do any of this with you. She may try to spin it that she's willing to but it will NOT work and she's going to get bored and she'll be right back at it with other men.

Your wife is being driven by her sexual desires. She's choosing this over you for crying out loud.

You're also operating out of fear because you do NOT want to lose her. My friend, you have ALREADY lost her, you just don't realize it.

There's a pattern here, and she keeps stepping over these vague boundary lines KNOWING that you will NOT be doing anything about it because you haven't in the past and she damn well knows she won't have to suffer any consequences.

Your wife has been sexting other men.
Sending them pics and videos (by the way what's in these videos that she's sending them?).

These pics and videos can be (and more than likely already are) being passed around the internet for others to see.

The sad thing is you're passively sitting by allowing this. Instead of "wife if you want to do this fine, I can't stop you, but what I can do is not allow you to do this as my wife because this isn't what I signed up for, so you can continue doing it but I will be meeting with my attorney first thing tomorrow morning and starting the process to end our marriage. So what's it going to be"?

Instead you're letting her walk all over you and letting your wife (let me repeat myself your F'n WIFE....the mother of your children) spend her time going down a rabbit hole to fulfill lustful desires with OTHER MEN (NOT YOU) and as you see things, in your mind, you think the answer is for her to let you be a part of it???

Please wake up man and see this for what it is. Your wife also has a track record betraying you.

Your wife, as painful as it is to hear this, does not respect you nor does she value you. It's ALL about her and her lustful desires and you're just a witness standing by watching it and in the meantime dying a slow death.

Let this sink in....your wife is BLOWING up your family. That's how serious this is.

You told her you're not OK with this and not doing well?? Where's your F'n ANGER?????

You want her to be honest with you?
Why don't you get honest with yourself about what's going on here and why you're putting up with it?

I just don't see a solution here. She may choose you, and say that she's going to refrain from going to these sites and messing around with other men, but given her track record, you're going to see real soon how bored she is, and she's Ultimately going to be right back at it because this is your wife's drug of choice. It's what gets her off and she'll choose it EVERY. SINGLE.TIME. Over you and your kids!!

Is this how you want to live your life?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

MJJEAN said:


> Are you seriously suggesting he go tell her friends and family that she is a bisexual kinkster who is getting her needs met online? Because that can only end badly.


Let me expand a little, my answer was kind of hasty. You must tell friends and family. Like I said, light of day is the only option for cheating. You don't have to tell them every gory detail. You do tell them exactly and bluntly what was going on. She was engaged in at least emotional affairs with multiple men. She was sexting and exchanging explicit pictures and videos with random men. I may even go so far as to tell them she was taking risky explicit pictures and video out in public at their direction. All this was being done at the expense of her family. She was distancing herself from her husband and kids to spend time engaging in these affairs. That is the cold hard facts. 

I personally don't know how this man can stay with her. She has already given control of her body over to other men. She has checked out of the marriage as far as I'm concerned, but if OP wants to keep her it is his choice, but he should at least take actions to attempt to stop it, protect his kids and himself. Although, I doubt that will happen. Everything posted here suggested he is king of the Betas, otherwise his wife wouldn't be search for the Alpha of her dreams and fantasies.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

She is a serial cheater and accomplished liar. This is her character and will not change.

You want truth and trust in your marriage but have not gotten that in a long time. Her little "public exhibitionist " trips were most likely more than what you know.

Saying all the secrets were "to keep from hurting you" is pure BS straight out of the cheaters handbook.

You are afraid of what the future holds. You have to make up your mind what you are willing to accept.


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## Chaparralredux (Apr 21, 2021)

The first thing you need to do is download the free book NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY and buy MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER. NMMNG may or may not apply but you will almost immediately recognize yourself there or not if it doesn’t. Every man needs the second book especially you since this is mostly a respect problem.
As to the kink there are so many forms of this you need to be more specific and whether you can even handle it. The worst thing is how many women fall under the control of an online dom that totally destroys her life. 
Next is what do you specifically mean about previous bouts of cheating. As someone else mentioned, true serial cheaters simply can’t stop. You need to determine if this is the case and get as much info online to determine if you can even be successful in saving this relationship. 
As far as counseling goes, you both need individual counseling and to be able to discuss things with each other’s counselor since people that cheat will often lie to their counselor. At this point marriage counseling is premature. 
You also need to see a lawyer to find out where you stand and if infidelity has any standing in a divorce or custody. You also need to see what you can do about collecting proof of exactly what is going on. Specifically because if your wife is or has been cheating, everything she tells you has to be independently verified. People that are as honest as the day is long will turn into professional liars at the drop of a hat when they engage in infidelity.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Let me expand a little, my answer was kind of hasty. You must tell friends and family. Like I said, light of day is the only option for cheating. You don't have to tell them every gory detail. You do tell them exactly and bluntly what was going on. She was engaged in at least emotional affairs with multiple men. She was sexting and exchanging explicit pictures and videos with random men. I may even go so far as to tell them she was taking risky explicit pictures and video out in public at their direction. All this was being done at the expense of her family. She was distancing herself from her husband and kids to spend time engaging in these affairs. That is the cold hard facts.
> 
> I personally don't know how this man can stay with her. She has already given control of her body over to other men. She has checked out of the marriage as far as I'm concerned, but* if OP wants to keep her it is his choice,* but he should at least take actions to attempt to stop it, protect his kids and himself. Although, I doubt that will happen. Everything posted here suggested he is king of the Betas, otherwise his wife wouldn't be search for the Alpha of her dreams and fantasies.


The bolded is why I do NOT suggest outing her. IF he wants to salvage the marriage AND participate in her kinks or allow her to have her needs met outside the marriage in some sort of managed way she cannot think for one single second he'd tell family and friends of her proclivities. I know its counterintuitive, but she needs to trust his absolute discretion before she will be honest with him and that honesty is necessary to even have a hope of making it work.

Would I try to make it work after finding out my spouse has been having their mental and emotional sexual kink needs met outside the relationship? No. I'd start the divorce ball rolling and out my spouse to anyone who'd listen. But then I am rather known for being a bit vindictive.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The thing that seems to be very easy for you, and rather difficult for the veterans of this site, is believing what she is telling you.

Gently...your wife is FULL OF ****.

You have NO IDEA how deep this rabbit hole goes.

What she needs is more than what any one partner can provide.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> YES! My god yes, I need someone who can untangle this f'ed up situation from an outside perspective! We don't really have any close friends (I have two great friends that would never forgive her if I talked to them about this, so I can't). Then there's family, but I am pretty sure they would side with me on this one, and I don't want to ruin her relationship with her family either (they wouldn't let her live this down I think). I have called, and am calling several different counselors to see if we can get in anywhere ASAP. I don't want to ruin our relationship any further trying to fix things on my own.


Translation of this post:

"I need someone to help me make my wife into something she is not... monogamous."

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

Well, we have an appointment for couples therapy (virtually) next week. I have 'stacked the deck' in favor of all of the truth coming out, boundaries set, etc., in that I found a counselor that specializes in sex therapy, infidelity, sex-positive, and is kink-allied. I don't want my wife to hold anything back, and want to be sure our therapist is as open and understanding of our situation. I would think that any standard therapist would be much less forgiving of the kink aspect, and want to be sure she is comfortable airing ALL of the details, what are her wants and needs. I am bouncing between being hopeful, depressed, angry, and many other things. The main thing I feel I need to get clear is that I am monogamous, and if my wife is no longer wanting or willing to be, then we need to consider separation or divorce. I've been really thinking the past few days about when she said "I don't deserve you." One of the things I need to consider for myself is, does she? I have been forgiving in the past, of the online chats with exes, and thrill-seeking solo activities, but I can't constantly be vigilant/snooping, and it's not fair of her to expect me to be. 

The other day, I thought I glanced a 'red balloon' on the iMessage notification that she quickly opened. When she set her phone down, without asking or explaining, I just picked it up, scrolled to messages, and saw if there was anything off. There wasn't, which sent me into a 30-minute spiral (I didn't ask her about it, as I wanted to research before, looked into how to find deleted messages, text history, etc). I saw that there was no text history from that time, so the notification was from an earlier text that I had sent her, that she hadn't seen/acknowledged. I did see some weird numbers (313 area code) from a few days back in the evening, that started to cause my heartrate to pick up. I asked her, and she was just as confused. We looked together, and saw that that was some Google Voice text from her work stuff (not going into specifics on career) that were legit. I felt a combination of guilt and relief, and asked her 'You know why I'm like this, right?' She understood, and said that from now on she's an open book. I guess we'll see...another thing I need to bring up in the therapy is that I don't know if this will be 'last time' for her, but it NEEDS to be the last time for me. I'm tired of this, and it shouldn't be my job to check up on my spouse, she should make the right choices regardless of if I am involved or not. She mentioned that she's felt narcissistic about this, like she didn't even consider the affect that discovering all of this would have on me, she was just seeking thrills for herself.

I think she needs to admit to herself what she wants of of life, relationships, and specifically our relationship. I will not allow her to have her cake and eat it too. Is she willing to change and reconcile, or will she always feel like she's missing out on a whole other life? I know (think?) she doesn't want divorce, because she wants the Happy Family (+ options for sexual kinks). I am not willing to have the side dish. If I can provide what she needs, that's great! If she can't be happy with one man, one relationship, then I need to find someone who will. I have worked on my self-esteem over the years to try to be happier with myself, and I hope she can do the same. I have the feeling this therapy session is not going to go the way she wants, in that I have not mentioned the word divorce since D-day. I have always had it set in my mind as a nuclear option. But, it might be the best one for both of us. We will have to see.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I doubt the MC will be what you think. It usually isn’t. Fix yourself. That’s about all the control you have.
Stop accepting the unacceptable.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Well, we have an appointment for couples therapy (virtually) next week. I have 'stacked the deck' in favor of all of the truth coming out, boundaries set, etc., in that I found a counselor that specializes in sex therapy, infidelity, sex-positive, and is kink-allied. I don't want my wife to hold anything back, and want to be sure our therapist is as open and understanding of our situation. I would think that any standard therapist would be much less forgiving of the kink aspect, and want to be sure she is comfortable airing ALL of the details, what are her wants and needs. I am bouncing between being hopeful, depressed, angry, and many other things. The main thing I feel I need to get clear is that I am monogamous, and if my wife is no longer wanting or willing to be, then we need to consider separation or divorce. I've been really thinking the past few days about when she said "I don't deserve you." One of the things I need to consider for myself is, does she? I have been forgiving in the past, of the online chats with exes, and thrill-seeking solo activities, but I can't constantly be vigilant/snooping, and it's not fair of her to expect me to be.
> 
> The other day, I thought I glanced a 'red balloon' on the iMessage notification that she quickly opened. When she set her phone down, without asking or explaining, I just picked it up, scrolled to messages, and saw if there was anything off. There wasn't, which sent me into a 30-minute spiral (I didn't ask her about it, as I wanted to research before, looked into how to find deleted messages, text history, etc). I saw that there was no text history from that time, so the notification was from an earlier text that I had sent her, that she hadn't seen/acknowledged. I did see some weird numbers (313 area code) from a few days back in the evening, that started to cause my heartrate to pick up. I asked her, and she was just as confused. We looked together, and saw that that was some Google Voice text from her work stuff (not going into specifics on career) that were legit. I felt a combination of guilt and relief, and asked her 'You know why I'm like this, right?' She understood, and said that from now on she's an open book. I guess we'll see...another thing I need to bring up in the therapy is that I don't know if this will be 'last time' for her, but it NEEDS to be the last time for me. I'm tired of this, and it shouldn't be my job to check up on my spouse, she should make the right choices regardless of if I am involved or not. She mentioned that she's felt narcissistic about this, like she didn't even consider the affect that discovering all of this would have on me, she was just seeking thrills for herself.
> 
> I think she needs to admit to herself what she wants of of life, relationships, and specifically our relationship. I will not allow her to have her cake and eat it too. Is she willing to change and reconcile, or will she always feel like she's missing out on a whole other life? I know (think?) she doesn't want divorce, because she wants the Happy Family (+ options for sexual kinks). I am not willing to have the side dish. If I can provide what she needs, that's great! If she can't be happy with one man, one relationship, then I need to find someone who will. I have worked on my self-esteem over the years to try to be happier with myself, and I hope she can do the same. I have the feeling this therapy session is not going to go the way she wants, in that I have not mentioned the word divorce since D-day. I have always had it set in my mind as a nuclear option. But, it might be the best one for both of us. We will have to see.


I sounds to me like you have the right attitude, but you will have to be strong an follow through with moving on if she can't commit to living within you boundaries. I hope for the best.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

This 



Marc878 said:


> doubt the MC will be what you think. It usually isn’t. Fix yourself. That’s about all the control you have.
> Stop accepting the unacceptable.



and this



BigDaddyNY said:


> I sounds to me like you have the right attitude, but you will have to be strong an follow through with moving on if she can't commit to living within you boundaries. I hope for the best.



She is what she is and it looks that she no longer can repressed it. If this is true, then MC won't do a thing other than delay the inevitable, and per your statement that you'd only accept monogamy, then the inevitable will be divorce. Good luck.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

You: Please stop.

Your Wife: eye roll. what a loser.

Why would she ever stop cheating for you?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Well, we have an appointment for couples therapy (virtually) next week. I have 'stacked the deck' in favor of all of the truth coming out, boundaries set, etc., in that I found a counselor that specializes in sex therapy, infidelity, sex-positive, and is kink-allied. I don't want my wife to hold anything back, and want to be sure our therapist is as open and understanding of our situation. I would think that any standard therapist would be much less forgiving of the kink aspect, and want to be sure she is comfortable airing ALL of the details, what are her wants and needs. I am bouncing between being hopeful, depressed, angry, and many other things. The main thing I feel I need to get clear is that I am monogamous, and if my wife is no longer wanting or willing to be, then we need to consider separation or divorce. I've been really thinking the past few days about when she said "I don't deserve you." One of the things I need to consider for myself is, does she? I have been forgiving in the past, of the online chats with exes, and thrill-seeking solo activities, but I can't constantly be vigilant/snooping, and it's not fair of her to expect me to be.
> 
> The other day, I thought I glanced a 'red balloon' on the iMessage notification that she quickly opened. When she set her phone down, without asking or explaining, I just picked it up, scrolled to messages, and saw if there was anything off. There wasn't, which sent me into a 30-minute spiral (I didn't ask her about it, as I wanted to research before, looked into how to find deleted messages, text history, etc). I saw that there was no text history from that time, so the notification was from an earlier text that I had sent her, that she hadn't seen/acknowledged. I did see some weird numbers (313 area code) from a few days back in the evening, that started to cause my heartrate to pick up. I asked her, and she was just as confused. We looked together, and saw that that was some Google Voice text from her work stuff (not going into specifics on career) that were legit. I felt a combination of guilt and relief, and asked her 'You know why I'm like this, right?' She understood, and said that from now on she's an open book. I guess we'll see...another thing I need to bring up in the therapy is that I don't know if this will be 'last time' for her, but it NEEDS to be the last time for me. I'm tired of this, and it shouldn't be my job to check up on my spouse, she should make the right choices regardless of if I am involved or not. She mentioned that she's felt narcissistic about this, like she didn't even consider the affect that discovering all of this would have on me, she was just seeking thrills for herself.
> 
> I think she needs to admit to herself what she wants of of life, relationships, and specifically our relationship. I will not allow her to have her cake and eat it too. Is she willing to change and reconcile, or will she always feel like she's missing out on a whole other life? I know (think?) she doesn't want divorce, because she wants the Happy Family (+ options for sexual kinks). I am not willing to have the side dish. If I can provide what she needs, that's great! If she can't be happy with one man, one relationship, then I need to find someone who will. I have worked on my self-esteem over the years to try to be happier with myself, and I hope she can do the same. I have the feeling this therapy session is not going to go the way she wants, in that I have not mentioned the word divorce since D-day. I have always had it set in my mind as a nuclear option. But, it might be the best one for both of us. We will have to see.


Why does she have to do anything?

You have let her get away with cheating on you for years.

Your choice in a therapist is a f’n joke. You need one that specializes in a cheating spouse. Nothing else matters until this is addressed.

Read No More Mr Nice Guy.

STOP catering to her.

Stop telling her the movie is about to start.

Stop telling her dinner is ready.

If she doesn’t want to interact with the family stop forcing it.

Grow a set and start respecting yourself. If not for you then for the sake of your kids.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

I was eating a delicious breakfast just now when I read OPs update. Now my appetite is gone. My god.


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## johndoe12299 (Jul 12, 2021)

1AM breakfast? Ah, who am i to judge. I'm eating a bowl of fruit loops right now, sorry kids!


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Hi all. I am in my thirties, and have been mostly happily married for just over the last 10 years. My wife and I met when we were in college, and have been together ever since. We've been married just a little over 10 years, and lately have been drifting apart. We have two small children, and she is a great mother to them. For the past few years, it's seemed like her sex drive has been near zero. However, it seems like her interest in sex ebbs and flows over time, like every 6 months or so she'll want some intimacy, then crickets. During the lulls, I have tried initiating so much, hugs, kisses, backrubs, and usually get the 'we can if you want to' shrug. Not very confidence inspiring, and I deal with low self-esteem to begin with. We have not gone to counseling for this yet, but I am hoping to get us both into counseling as soon as possible, to work through our current situation.
> 
> To make things worse, we have dealt with infidelity several times in our past, from her end. This typically manifests in online interactions only (according to her). Over the past year, she has been separating herself physically and emotionally from me and the kids. She will spend many hours to herself, engrossed in her phone. I have tried to get her to spend more time with me and the kids, and usually am met with the same indifference, shrug, or just get ignored ('you're gonna miss the movie!' or 'dinner's ready!', and she sometimes will then connect again).
> 
> ...


In ten years you have been through a lot. Seems like in most cases your wife is getting her sexual needs met outside of the marriage. Also sounds like she puts no priority on being faithful and would be fine if you went elsewhere as well. I guess whether the marriage is salvageable depends on how you define a marriage you are ok with. If "anything within your power" includes anything she cares to do, then sounds like she is willing to let you continue to be married without having sex with you. Nothing you have written gives any indication to me that your wife is willing to do anything other than what she has been doing.

You don't define what the "kink" is, or what her homemade videos entail, but get the sense that she is about as wild as they come. Or what you aren't comfortable with. Personally would be amazed if she wasn't doing FMF for real, but if you insist it hasn't gone live yet so be it.

The biggest red flag is a mother having little to do with her two little children so she can sext strangers while you and they are right there. Sounds like she has checked out of the marriage and the family.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

Thoughts this morning...I'm thinking about a trial separation. She mentioned "If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things." I'm not sure if that is just wanting an excuse for more privacy and unobserved online interactions, but whatever. What has me considering this, is that it would hopefully be a realization moment, if I ask her to leave and stay with her folks for a week. They don't know about any of this, and as much as I would like to keep them as little involved as possible, they would damn well find out if divorce were the next step. I hope this would be a wake-up call, that I am seriously p*ssed, and that this is the last time I am going to be stepped on, disrespected, and cheated on. It may make her realize what she has to lose. Having no contact with the kids, having no husband to clean up and care for things, only stuck with herself, her thoughts, and her hang-ups. I don't know if I can expect her to have no contact online, but am going to stress that from my perspective, there needs to be no further relationships, sexts, texts, nothing without my knowledge, if she wants any part of this marriage going forward. 

I am going to mention this maybe over the weekend, to give her some time to process, and before our initial MC session on Wednesday. I'd also like to hear what the counselor's thoughts would be on this plan. When we were dating and living together, there was a week where we broke up, where I moved out, due to her expressing some desires I could not go along with, and her hanging out with friends I didn't approve of (stupid of me at the time to 'give in', and be the one to leave, rather than her, but I thought she'd be safer at our shared apartment, than staying God knows where). Her folks were aware of the basics of the situation, that it was her fault, and they tried to get her to realize how good I was for her. After a week of her living on her own, she tried throwing a party, and no one came. I texted her that night, asking how it was going (she had posted the party invite online), and she admitted to how much she missed me, and regretted hurting me. She told me that no one came to her party, so I offered to come over and talk. We reconciled, but since that point (after getting engaged, married, kids, etc), we've (or she's) had some stumbles along the way. It seems like whenever things are going too well, like we're settled in jobs or hobbies or whatever, and life is cruising along, she reaches out, out of boredom, and sabotages. 

No matter where our relationship ends up, I want her to get her sh!t together, and figure out what it is that causes this pattern.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Thoughts this morning...I'm thinking about a trial separation. She mentioned *"If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things." I'm not sure if that is just wanting an excuse for more privacy and unobserved online interactions, but whatever.* What has me considering this, is that it would hopefully be a realization moment, if I ask her to leave and stay with her folks for a week. They don't know about any of this, and as much as I would like to keep them as little involved as possible, they would damn well find out if divorce were the next step. I hope this would be a wake-up call, that I am seriously p*ssed, and that this is the last time I am going to be stepped on, disrespected, and cheated on. It may make her realize what she has to lose. Having no contact with the kids, having no husband to clean up and care for things, only stuck with herself, her thoughts, and her hang-ups. I don't know if I can expect her to have no contact online, but am going to stress that from my perspective, there needs to be no further relationships, sexts, texts, nothing without my knowledge, if she wants any part of this marriage going forward.
> 
> I am going to mention this maybe over the weekend, to give her some time to process, and before our initial MC session on Wednesday. I'd also like to hear what the counselor's thoughts would be on this plan. When we were dating and living together, there was a week where we broke up, where I moved out, due to her expressing some desires I could not go along with, and her hanging out with friends I didn't approve of (stupid of me at the time to 'give in', and be the one to leave, rather than her, but I thought she'd be safer at our shared apartment, than staying God knows where). Her folks were aware of the basics of the situation, that it was her fault, and they tried to get her to realize how good I was for her. After a week of her living on her own, she tried throwing a party, and no one came. I texted her that night, asking how it was going (she had posted the party invite online), and she admitted to how much she missed me, and regretted hurting me. She told me that no one came to her party, so I offered to come over and talk. We reconciled, but since that point (after getting engaged, married, kids, etc), we've (or she's) had some stumbles along the way. It seems like whenever things are going too well, like we're settled in jobs or hobbies or whatever, and life is cruising along, she reaches out, out of boredom, and sabotages.
> 
> No matter where our relationship ends up, I want her to get her sh!t together, and figure out what it is that causes this pattern.


Take her up on her offer. She is telling you she wants out and is fine with being away from you and the kids. I think MC is just a real waste of your money, nothing you have written indicates she has any desire to stay faithfully married to you. This has been going on for a decade. Do you want another decade of the same?


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> She mentioned "If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things.


dude: either you're so,so afraid of losing her, or you're so dense that can't see the forest for the trees. Separation means for the cheating spouse, a get free card for a period of time to be freely able to **** around, while the dense spouse is sitting at home waiting to see if the distance will make her/him rekindle the relationship. If you're going to do that, mind as well divorce now, because if you go for the separation her supposed online only cheating will become a physical cheating almost immediately. You are handing her the get out jail card for free.




EarlyMarriedMan said:


> No matter where our relationship ends up, I want her to get her sh!t together, and figure out what it is that causes this pattern.


That's not for you to decide. You may want all you want, but if she's not willing, nothing will do. Not for sake of the children well being, nor hers, but it will be her decision alone. With people like her, normally, on average, is all downhill after separation/divorce. 

What you need to do is find your balls somehow, and be a man that has self-respect, dignity, self-worth, and stop trying to run the river to travel uphill. Love and relationship is not a forced thing, is a fluid, organic thing that unite two people. The more you try to force it, the more it gets away from you. You should know this by now. You should be able to see it by now. You should know what to do by now because trying to force what's not there all it does it makes life incredible miserable. Your life.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Thoughts this morning...I'm thinking about a trial separation. She mentioned "If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things." I'm not sure if that is just wanting an excuse for more privacy and unobserved online interactions, but whatever.


Trial separation NEVER works with cheaters.. EVER!
Separation with someone who has a cheater's mindset is recipe for disaster!
Cheaters think differently, she will know that she has some freedom and you are still available, she will think about trying her kinks physically with the excuses of getting it out of her system and as long as you will not know no harm will be done (That's how they think and operate)!
We know this and we have experience!
It only takes one dating APP to hook-up with someone within an hour!
Serving her is the only way to shock her out of this mess, it will make her realize what she will REALLY lose (assuming she wants this marriage to survive) not a trial process!

Now your value to her is very low because of how many times you didn't make her face any consequences for her past behaviours!
That's why she repeats her transgressions against you, because there are no real consequences, she is never afraid of losing any thing, you are always there, that's your mistake and you're living this consequence of her action!

She told you this:


> "If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things."


She is not warried or have any fear that you will move on, because you showed her time and time again that she is the best you can do, and you are so damn lucky to have her!
She knows you will go and process things and return back like a sad poppy!
That's why separation will not make her fear anything!

Brother, separation is for the weak spouses who are not confident to find better life without their partners!
Show her that you care less about this marriage by divorcing her, and telling her she has until the divorce is final to prove to you she will be a safe partner on your terms!
If she cares to save the marriage she will start to move mountains to prove it to you, if not you are already on your way out!
Stop doing the mistakes that betrayed husbands do all the time, going round in circles and lowering their value, it never works!

What you are basically doing is giving her a gentle slap on the wrist and telling her you want her, and she is the best you can do, and to please, please, please respect you!
Your are acting so desperate, waiting for MC to do his magic, like you have no other options but her.. in her eyes that's pathetic and weak, don't let her believe that, not anymore!

Be strong and decisive, cancel MC and tell her she will be served with divorce papers, you had enough of her disrespect!
Then watch her reaction, if she says she will do anything to fix it, tell her she has until the divorce is final to prove it to you (the serving of papers will happen, don't bluff).. 
If she didn't, then you know where you stand!
This is how you do it!

No one can disrespect you unless you allow them!


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## Killi (May 12, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I'd also like to hear what the counselor's thoughts would be on this plan.


Why? MC is not going to give any useful advice because they are paid to keep marriages intact.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Just pray that your kids never get their inquisitive little paws on that phone. Kids are wicked smart with technology and it would certainly be a little shocking to find out what Mom's doing when she's not participating with the family.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

yes, old sexual ardors CAN be rekindled. even if she is somewhat reluctant...you just have to work on her. lots of compliments, new sexual techniques, presents, sexy clothing. it will be a lot of hard work on your part.

but, unfortunately, you mention past infidelities. ie..multiple ones. that might suggest that all that effort is not deserved by her. 
and any effort to get her medically aroused, such as hormone therapy, would only make her hornier to cheat on you with some new man.

i guess you have to decide if she is worth the effort, or if it is time to get the heck out of dodge.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

johndoe12299 said:


> 1AM breakfast? Ah, who am i to judge. I'm eating a bowl of fruit loops right now, sorry kids!


I’m in Spain. 8 hours ahead of you.


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## ArthurGPym (Jun 28, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> Thoughts this morning...I'm thinking about a trial separation. She mentioned "If you want me to leave, I can leave, and give you some time and space to process things." I'm not sure if that is just wanting an excuse for more privacy and unobserved online interactions, but whatever. What has me considering this, is that it would hopefully be a realization moment, if I ask her to leave and stay with her folks for a week. They don't know about any of this, and as much as I would like to keep them as little involved as possible, they would damn well find out if divorce were the next step. I hope this would be a wake-up call, that I am seriously p*ssed, and that this is the last time I am going to be stepped on, disrespected, and cheated on. It may make her realize what she has to lose. Having no contact with the kids, having no husband to clean up and care for things, only stuck with herself, her thoughts, and her hang-ups. I don't know if I can expect her to have no contact online, but am going to stress that from my perspective, there needs to be no further relationships, sexts, texts, nothing without my knowledge, if she wants any part of this marriage going forward.
> 
> I am going to mention this maybe over the weekend, to give her some time to process, and before our initial MC session on Wednesday. I'd also like to hear what the counselor's thoughts would be on this plan. When we were dating and living together, there was a week where we broke up, where I moved out, due to her expressing some desires I could not go along with, and her hanging out with friends I didn't approve of (stupid of me at the time to 'give in', and be the one to leave, rather than her, but I thought she'd be safer at our shared apartment, than staying God knows where). Her folks were aware of the basics of the situation, that it was her fault, and they tried to get her to realize how good I was for her. After a week of her living on her own, she tried throwing a party, and no one came. I texted her that night, asking how it was going (she had posted the party invite online), and she admitted to how much she missed me, and regretted hurting me. She told me that no one came to her party, so I offered to come over and talk. We reconciled, but since that point (after getting engaged, married, kids, etc), we've (or she's) had some stumbles along the way. It seems like whenever things are going too well, like we're settled in jobs or hobbies or whatever, and life is cruising along, she reaches out, out of boredom, and sabotages.
> 
> No matter where our relationship ends up, I want her to get her sh!t together, and figure out what it is that causes this pattern.


You won’t do any of these things. Doing so would show strength and decisiveness and you have neither quality. Best you can do is find your own lover on the side and have an open marriage.

MC only works when both partners give a crap. Your WW doesn’t give a crap.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You have a major hopium addiction. Get out or get more of what you’ve gotten.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

I don't have high hopes for your MC. From your description of the therapist and what I know about couples counseling, I expect the counselor will encourage you to allow and support her exploration and maybe ask her to be sensitive to your need for some occassional reassurance. There may be some relationships where it works "You pursue your kinks and I'll pursue my gardening and we'll peacefully co-exist with mutual respect or whatever around the kids and pets and family." I think I have heard of situations like that, though I am not certain and I do not understand how they can work. In any event, I don't think it's yours. This is eating you. That is not going to stop. You are not going to grow and evolve emotionally to where this is OK. It will eat you more and more every day. And, of course, the line that she hides things because she doesn't want to hurt you is unadulterated bs of the first degree. She hides things because she wants to do them and doesn't want the trouble of being discovered.

ETA: The separation may be a good idea. For you to focus on yourself and not on your wife's extracurriculars. You are not going change her and she is unlikely to change her. Accept those things.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

MC is a waste of time with a WW that wants out. When a wife says it’s ok for you to go after other women, she’s done with you or she has so little faith in your ability to pull another woman. What does she bring to the table that makes you want to sacrifice your emotional well-being for her? She’s a horrible wife and mother. 


You shouldn’t feel that you have to become someone you’re not to fulfill a spouses changing sexual wants. Some on this board will act like this dom/sub stuff is normal and if you’re not willing to participate you’re sexually boring and that is not the case. Sure being a little more daring or adventurous can be great but that’s not what your wife or some posters are talking about. I would not want to do things that feel like I’m humiliating my wife and mother of my children and if she all of a sudden felt she needed that, I’d be out. 


You should just let your serial adulterous wife go. File for D and let both families know how she’s betrayed you. There are way more women that want what you bring to the table than you think. Let your wife follow her path to being a free prostitute for a new guy every few months.


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## EarlyMarriedMan (Aug 9, 2021)

Apologies in advance for the looooong delay. I needed to take some time away from this discussion, to think, process, and work on resolving things. I have read, and re-read these replies, and appreciate all of your responses, regardless if I agree with those posting or not.

So, marriage counseling has definitely helped. We have found a counselor that has been walking us through some exercises that have been really helpful to us. Lots of using the Gottman's research on marriage and relationships. We've finally gotten to the root of our problems, acknowledging the depth of the hurt, and uncovering past hurts. We're not 100%, but we're working together, as well as working each independently, to be a better couple, family, and individuals. We're meeting together with our therapist biweekly, and I'm going to suggest we throw in some individual counseling, to make sure all that is needed to be discussed can be. We're scheduling time to be intimate, and monthly date nights, to make sure we are not growing apart.

I've read some great books over the past few months, including the aforementioned "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover. Definitely an eye-opener. In addition, I've also found helpful; "The New Rules of Marriage" by Terrence Real, "Tell Me What You Want" by Justin Lehmiller, "Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends on It" by Kamal Ravikant, and "Mating in Captivity" by Esther Perel. I have been working on myself, and making sure that I am the best version of me. My wife is learning to be honest with herself, and honest with me.

To those going through similar situations, I wish you the best of luck. It's a long trip, with lots of bumps in the road. But, I think we're on the right path.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Well. Best of luck with that. Your wife is the perfect example of once a cheater always a cheater.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> I played dumb, and mentioned an app I noticed on one of her devices, that's used for anonymous chat. She had an excuse, "Oh, that must have gotten downloaded when I clicked on an ad or something. I'll go ahead and delete that silly thing!"



OP, 

You said she's done this before, several times. Due to that, there is no excuse, NONE for you responding the way you did above.

When you mentioned that app and she lied and gave you a silly azz excuse, you should have called her out on it right on the spot.

You should have reminded her of what she's done before and you should have told her that you're not as stupid as she thinks you are. You should have told her she's an idiot to lie to you and make up such a silly excuse.

Again, she's done this before, several times so there is no justification, none for what either of you did in that little exchange of yours I quoted above.

You're not dealing with reality OP.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> and I guess I have to trust her word, for what it's worth.


Nah, polygraph her.

You already KNOW you can't trust her word.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

EarlyMarriedMan said:


> F
> 
> For me, the big thing was the spending time away from family, actively sexting with photos and video, while lying about it and hiding it. She created a profile on an application dedicated to the kinks that she is currently curious about (mainly BDSM), but from her words, this was about exploring and learning, for us to use as a couple...well, that would hold up more if I were included from the start. Now I am, but if I didn't confront her about this, I'm not sure what would've happened. She has gone on public, exhibitionistic 'dares' from this site, and posted text/photos of solo (according to her) adventures. Again, taking time away from husband and family to do this. She has said that any of the online stuff hasn't spilled over into physical, and I guess I have to trust her word, for what it's worth. I am not interested in having any other people in our marriage other than the two of us, and she knows this. Side physical relationships are not an option, and I've told her that. As far as bf/gf on the side, yes, I'm worried that my 'vanilla'-ness, and nice-guy attributes are going to cause her to seek a 'bad boy' type relationship, outside of our marriage. She has had online sexting stuff with an ex in our past, that was very hurtful when I discovered. We've been down this road before, and I don't want to do this again in 5 or 10 years. When I called out her lying recently, I said 'don't treat me like I'm an idiot.' If you're not happy in our relationship, tell me to me face, don't sneak around and try to fill in the missing blanks on your own.


Polygraph can clear some things up if there was any physical.


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