# How an affair starts



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I've seen someone post several times a list of "how an affair starts" but can't find it. Could someone post it or a link please?
Wanted to read it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Some info listed in "Cause for concern? Wife and a male workout partner" post 73


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Is this what you're looking for?

Anatomy of an Affair: Fifteen Steps to InfidelityMarriage Advocates


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Not it....

It was something a guy posts here once in a while. How things go from just friends to ap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Why do you need it?

Hell E.....you have been here long enough to know how an affair start!

"I'll show you mine if you show me yours"....and before you know some betrayed spouse is walking around with their heart on the floor, wondering what phucking just happened.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

It starts w/ a decision to have an affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

@JohnA

About how it has been so long.

About how sometimes my husband doesn't listen.

Etc. Right? 

It was originally posted by @F-102


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

This one (from F-102)?

Right now, the texts/messages/conversations may be innocent fun, but soon, it may morph into:

Their lives since they parted
Their relationships since they parted
Their families
Their spouses
You
How you're an excellent father
How you're a great husband
How you're a wonderful guy
Your job
How your job keeps you busy
How your job keeps you away
How she sometimes feels lonely when you're away
How she sometimes feels a little overburdened at home
How she sometimes feels a little taken for granted
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS listen to her
How she feels that you don't ALWAYS understand her
How she feels like sometimes you're just "not there" for her
How...okay, you're not ALWAYS such a wonderful guy
How she loved hearing from him again
How she loves talking to him again
How she looks forward to his texts/e-mails now
How she feels young again
How she feels appreciated again
How she feels attractive again
How it's been so, so long since you made her feel that way
How her eyes have suddenly been opened
How she now realizes what she truly wants and needs
How she now realizes that you can't give that to her
How insensitive you can be sometimes
How you can be a real jerk sometimes
How she wonders if they would have stayed together
How she now realizes that she never really loved you
How she now realizes that she really loved him all along
How on earth she could have fallen for a jerk like you
How you're the biggest a++hole she's ever known 
How you're standing in the way of her true happiness
How you ruined her life
How she made a big mistake marrying you
How she made an even bigger mistake letting him go
How they were really meant to be together
How she desperately has to get away from you
How she's definitely going to leave you
How she's talking to divorce lawyers
How they're going to live happily ever after...


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> It starts w/ a decision to have an affair.


 I usually agree with you Gus, but not here. Although having an affair is a decision, it does not start with "a decision to have an affair". It starts with a decison to break small martial boundaries, and to not tell your spouse about it because they would make too big of a deal about nothing.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

JustPuzzled said:


> This one (from F-102)?
> 
> Right now, the texts/messages/conversations may be innocent fun, but soon, it may morph into:
> 
> ...



Yes!!! Thx guys
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

TRy said:


> I usually agree with you Gus, but not here. Although having an affair is a decision, it does not start with "a decision to have an affair". It starts with a decison to break small martial boundaries, and to not tell your spouse about it because they would make too big of a deal about nothing.


You're getting caught up in minutiae.

Bottom line --

At some point, there is a decision to be made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> At some point, there is a decision to be made.


Yes, at time of PIV. The rest of it "just happened"


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Somewhere right around in ---------------->




> How she wonders if they would have stayed together
> <--------------------------Here---------------------------
> -----------------------------Or----------------------->
> How she now realizes that she never really loved you
> ...


.... is what it looks like to me. WTH do I know. I've never had one. Just an honest guess.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> Yes, at time of PIV. The rest of it "just happened"


It's well before that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

TRy said:


> I usually agree with you Gus, but not here. Although having an affair is a decision, it does not start with "a decision to have an affair". It starts with a decison to break small martial boundaries, and to not tell your spouse about it because they would make too big of a deal about nothing.


That may be true in some cases,but I agree with Gus. These things are intentional from the get go and,often are motivated due to anger,resentment and hostility toward the betrayed.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I view them as a direct and intentional assault on the betrayed.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that most affairs start as a result of the cheater having something broken within him/herself, and instead of figuring it out - he/she cheats. What sadly happens to many, is they blame their relationships for their infidelity, and then the betrayed spouse divorces him/her, and the WS goes on to cheat on someone new. Rinse and repeat. Most people who cheat are seeking to fill a void that really only they can fill. (and in my opinion, God can fill) 

And the behaviors were probably there prior to marriage, but as many people do, they hope that marriage will fix all the things that are wrong, but marriage only reveals them. Just MHO.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

There is a divide between serial cheaters and contact cheaters

Serial cheaters are constantly on the lookout for affair partners, they plan on starting an affair when the conditions are right, or they manipulate the conditions. These people are not addicted to the affair they are addicted to affairs.

Contact cheaters slowly drift into an affair by degrees, as described in prior post, often because they spend a great deal more time with someone other than their spouse.

Tamat


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I think Gus is right in that we are arguing fine points. The person who uses it to seduce woman (a player) he is all un from the start. By the way @Evinrude58 the link posted by @3putt was correct. It was posted there by F-102. He was one of the first guys I stared to follow here. I collect links and posts and often just post them because well, they are well written and I am not going to better them.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

TAMAT said:


> Contact cheaters slowly drift into an affair by degrees, as described in prior post, often because they spend a great deal more time with someone other than their spouse.
> 
> Tamat


Very inciteful. I agree with this 100%.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Very inciteful. I agree with this 100%.


That describes the process,but not the intentionality. One poster described thes types of affairs as "accidents". 
I disagree with that.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> That describes the process,but not the intentionality. One poster described thes types of affairs as "accidents".
> I disagree with that.


You would actually be dead wrong. Most affairs do indeed happen over a period of time and are not intentional. They fall into it slowly until it engulfs them completely. Not saying it's right, just is.

The number of people that actively go out seeking affairs pales by comparison by far to the ones that ease into it without that intention initially.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

3putt said:


> You would actually be dead wrong. Most affairs do indeed happen over a period of time and are not intentional. They fall into it slowly until it engulfs them completely. Not saying it's right, just is.
> 
> The number of people that actively go out seeking affairs pales by comparison by far to the ones that ease into it without that intention initially.


It begins w/ _at least_ a failure to enforce boundaries.

This leads to a _refusal_ to enforce boundaries.

This leads to a decision.

There is _always_ a decision.

There is always a point at which one is able to stop, assess, and refuse to continue in his or her offense.

It may be difficult to see where or when this occurred, even w/ the benefit of hindsight, but make no mistake... there is ALWAYS a decision.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> It begins w/ at least a failure to enforce boundaries.
> 
> This leads to a refusal to enforce boundaries.
> 
> ...


I'll never disagree with this. Awareness of how easily these things can happen and employing proper boundaries to ensure it doesn't is the key. Not to mention never stop doing the things that got your spouse to the altar in the first place.

But, yep, there is that point in time that the decision is made, and that's on them. Well, actually it all is, but you know what I mean.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think that they start earlier. They start when there is something you want and expect in a marriage that your partner can't or won't provide. That something may or may not be reasonable.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Is cheating a symptom or the problem. I tend to think of it as more of the symptom. You can get rid of the cheating, I guess, but does that ever solve the problem that sparked it? No. The problem may not be the marriage or even the other spouse. 

It's just that I think the affair starts with whatever the problem is. Then slowly it deteriorates within the person and they stop caring about why they were in the relationship to start with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> I think that they start earlier. They start when there is something you want and expect in a marriage that your partner can't or won't provide. That something may or may not be reasonable.


 I do not think that most cheaters intentionally start down a path of cheating because they want and expect something in a marriage that they are not getting. I think that when they find themselves heading down a path toward cheating with someone, they want their cake (cheating), while still being able to feel good about themselves by finding excuses to blame their spouse for the affair. Finding excuses to cheat is easy. All the cheater has to do is focus on the human imperfections of their spouse, and use these imperfections to reinvent history in claiming that these imperfection where what lead them down the path of cheating. Most betrayed spouses buy into these excuses since they have usually known about these imperfections for most of their life, so when they hear it from their cheating spouse it has a ring of truth.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Is cheating a symptom or the problem. I tend to think of it as more of the symptom. You can get rid of the cheating, I guess, but does that ever solve the problem
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, cheating is the problem.

Getting rid of the cheating by getting rid of the cheater solves the problem.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

lostmyreligion said:


> Yes, cheating is the problem.
> 
> Getting rid of the cheating by getting rid of the cheater solves the problem.


I don't disagree with that in simplistic terms. But is seems like a response to an issue that doesn't actually get to the root of the problem. Sometimes we need to know the root of the problem, even if we don't keep the cheater. Sometimes it's partially our fault why the marriage is in the shape it is in. We may need to know to make ourselves better. Maybe it's all them and we need to know that too to make ourselves feel better. 

I just have a hard time thinking anyone is a bad person. Maybe it's the moral relativist in me, but everyone has motivations and justifications. From Hitler and terrorists to cheating spouses. It's not like I'm going to say, oh Hitler, I get it know, we are cool. But to know the reasons behind acts that appear unfathomable, that is how we get a better understanding of the problem and ourselves.

Sorry if that seemed preachy or didn't make sense. Been a long day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

You're not being preachy Herschel. It's just that I'm not a moral relativist.

My morals are mine, and at this point, pretty much graven in granite. The only person I truly hold to living by them is me - thus the simple response. 

Anything else is moral compromise.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

3putt said:


> You would actually be dead wrong. Most affairs do indeed happen over a period of time and are not intentional. They fall into it slowly until it engulfs them completely. Not saying it's right, just is.
> 
> The number of people that actively go out seeking affairs pales by comparison by far to the ones that ease into it without that intention initially.


I feel this is very naive. How does one unintentionally have an affair. Absurd,IMO.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Maxo said:


> I feel this is very naive. How does one unintentionally have an affair. Absurd,IMO.


Are you saying that people aren't marrying for the right reasons? I don't think anyone goes into a marriage with the expectation of failure. Whether they are broken people or the marriage ended up driving them away, it happens slowly and bit by bit. Who just wakes up and thinks, I need to **** someone else today? Well, besides George Clooney.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Redactus (Nov 22, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> It starts w/ a decision to have an affair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've got to agree with Gus on this one. The decision to have an affair is made and all that is left is to get that rationalization hamster going to justify the deed and shift the blame.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Herschel said:


> Are you saying that people aren't marrying for the right reasons? I don't think anyone goes into a marriage with the expectation of failure. Whether they are broken people or the marriage ended up driving them away, it happens slowly and bit by bit. Who just wakes up and thinks, I need to **** someone else today? Well, besides George Clooney.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. I am saying that upon becoming dissatisfied( most often due to poor communication skills,entitlement issues and unrealistic expectations) ,people who cheat ,then,set out to find an affair. I never said this was their original intent upon entering the marriage,although with some it is.
But, clearly, they do not just find themselves falling in lust without making a series of very intentional decisions to expose themelves to the person they desire,demonstrate tehir availability and take other active steps in their pursuit.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I think the confusion is coming from the fact that there is a difference between a conscious decision and an unconscious decision.

A conscious decision would be to wake up and say "oh I'm going to have an affair today!", go out, find someone and f them.

Unconsciously, boundaries get crossed, rationalization are made, you don't think it's that bad, conversations escalate, things aren't thought through, bam, you're in bed with someone else. More of a slower progressing decision. 

In both situations a decision IS made. Because even in the unconscious ones, you can still say no and stop.

But I think there are cases where some WS intentionally cheat, they just want to. 

I think there are other WS who don't realize they're crossing boundaries until it's too late.

I'm not trying to trivialize cheating.....but say you go to the store to buy milk. You pass some lipstick, toss it in the cart, pass some air freshener "oh I need that", pass a neat wall hanging, that goes in the cart, etc. by the time you get to check out, you've spent $200 when you came to spend $4. 

But at each step of the way, you made a decision to throw something else in your cart. And then you check out and go "ahhh sh*t".

Or.....you could wake up one day and say, "I'm gonna go blow $200 at the store just for sh*ts and giggles".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*The conscious or unconscious choice to cheat on a marital partner is the "main course!" PIV is simply the covert intoxicating "dessert" and "reward" for for a pair of cheaters!

 Ces pas?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Herschel said:


> I don't disagree with that in simplistic terms. But is seems like a response to an issue that doesn't actually get to the root of the problem. Sometimes we need to know the root of the problem, even if we don't keep the cheater. Sometimes it's partially our fault why the marriage is in the shape it is in. We may need to know to make ourselves better. Maybe it's all them and we need to know that too to make ourselves feel better.
> 
> I just have a hard time thinking anyone is a bad person. Maybe it's the moral relativist in me, but everyone has motivations and justifications. From Hitler and terrorists to cheating spouses. It's not like I'm going to say, oh Hitler, I get it know, we are cool. But to know the reasons behind acts that appear unfathomable, that is how we get a better understanding of the problem and ourselves.
> 
> Sorry if that seemed preachy or didn't make sense. Been a long day.





lostmyreligion said:


> You're not being preachy Herschel. It's just that I'm not a moral relativist.
> 
> My morals are mine, and at this point, pretty much graven in granite. The only person I truly hold to living by them is me - thus the simple response.
> 
> Anything else is moral compromise.


I'm a realist.



GusPolinski said:


> At our core, each of us is little more than a dirty, hairy, greasy, greedy savage concerned w/ nothing more than hunting, killing, keeping our bellies full, and pushing our genitals into those of others in order to ensure that our DNA is propagated as widely -- and in as diverse a manner -- as possible. And, if we can find a way to do each of those things as violently as possible... well, that would be greeeaaaaat.
> 
> Start to pour in a little decency and what you get is a race of somewhat-civilized primates, each of which expects monogamy from his or her (primary) partner w/o necessarily expecting it of him or herself.
> 
> We suck.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I think the confusion is coming from the fact that there is a difference between a conscious decision and an unconscious decision.
> 
> A conscious decision would be to wake up and say "oh I'm going to have an affair today!", go out, find someone and f them.
> 
> ...


Well,first,you cannot compare impulsively buying things at the store to the harm caused by cheating,IMO.
But,even ignoring the disparity in the damaged caused, I do not see how the decision to toss each item into the cart could be deemed unconcious.
There is a distinction to be drawn between premeditation and intentionality, as reflected in the elements of first degree murder vs second degree ( although I think mos infidelity is premeditated as well as intentional.
But,to characterize an affair that obviously requires a lot of inetional,cocious decisios as resulting from unconcious decisions ( or even more far out as an " accident) strains logic beyond recognition.
Doing so lessens the culpability of the cheater,much like focusing on the AP and cosidering one's wiiling spouse prey or a victim is a fantasy used to comfort a BS and make a cheater less culpable.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> I think the confusion is coming from the fact that there is a difference between a conscious decision and an unconscious decision.
> 
> A conscious decision would be to wake up and say "oh I'm going to have an affair today!", go out, find someone and f them.
> 
> ...


*Let's just say that within the vast majority of cases of marital infidelity, the covert cheating starts quite a while before the desirous "effing" ever does!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TRy said:


> I usually agree with you Gus, but not here. Although having an affair is a decision, it does not start with "a decision to have an affair". *It starts with a decison to break small martial boundaries, and to not tell your spouse about it because they would make too big of a deal about nothing.*


Reading that made me very sad. That is how my husband's EA started. He didn't tell me about the first casual conversation, or the second, or the third. I only found out after he was "in love" and wanted a D to marry her. I wish we could turn back time.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> There is a divide between serial cheaters and contact cheaters
> 
> Serial cheaters are constantly on the lookout for affair partners, they plan on starting an affair when the conditions are right, or they manipulate the conditions. These people are not addicted to the affair they are addicted to affairs.
> 
> ...


Good post. I've never heard it described that way.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Conscious / Unconscious? Its also a choice to not think through what you are doing because it spoils the excitement/fun. 

"I did not realize what i was doing" is a lie the cheater first tells themselves.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> Yes, at time of PIV. The rest of it "just happened"


It was at the point of unprotected PIV sex that I realised I was having an affair and that blew the thick fog out if my mind and I decided that I did not want to be a cheater.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

I think both are right.

Some do it by letting things creep up. Others know they are letting things go to far.

When they start deleting texts and hiding information, they already know right from wrong. So yes, it's a decision.



TRy said:


> I usually agree with you Gus, but not here. Although having an affair is a decision, it does not start with "a decision to have an affair". It starts with a decison to break small martial boundaries, and to not tell your spouse about it because they would make too big of a deal about nothing.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> It was at the point of unprotected PIV sex that I realised I was having an affair and that blew the thick fog out if my mind and I decided that I did not want to be a cheater.


Better late than never!


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

You can spend your whole life thinking about it - wondering how it got underway. I know a hell of a lot but it's weird, because the only thing I have never focused on is how it started. I never asked that specific question and now it feels way to late to ask even though I have that right to ask.

Even after three years it has the power to cut deep, far less frequently, but phew....when it gets a head of steam up.

My best answer is that he used the restructuring of the company they both worked at, to build a steady stream of compliments about her future employment prospects - given that most of the staff including the POS scumbag were being made redundant. 

He initially did this via the ex-employee FB page that was set up; using PM's. As it progressed they created secret e-mail accounts. I believe this culminated with a first 'encounter' at the inaugural re-union drinks 6 months after the redundancies.

The physical affair rolled on for approx 6 months after that.

By for now - I'm starting to get pi**ed off again !


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Good post. I've never heard it described that way.


This ^^ I think is very true.
A serial cheater is different than a one off contact cheater. They are both cheaters but the contact cheater is more like the boiling frog. They lie/downplay to themselves about what could go on within this friendship.

They lie/downplay to themselves about how their feelings are growing and how they are starting to cross those marital boundaries. They lie through omission about the frequency and type of contact they are having with the OM/OW to avoid silly unnecessary arguments…they lie to themselves that if they haven't done anything physical than they haven't done anything wrong and they haven't hurt anyone.

At some point however, there is the decision to allow it to go from an EA to a PA. I think it is a conscious decision that is made through the fog- but conscious never the less. At that point the brokeness comes into play and allows them to justify what they absolutely KNOW is wrong.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Sometimes there is not a decision, because people do not think. Then an impulse is followed.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

nursejackie said:


> This ^^ I think is very true.
> A serial cheater is different than a one off contact cheater. They are both cheaters but the contact cheater is more like the boiling frog. They lie/downplay to themselves about what could go on within this friendship.
> 
> They lie/downplay to themselves about how their feelings are growing and how they are starting to cross those marital boundaries. They lie through omission about the frequency and type of contact they are having with the OM/OW to avoid silly unnecessary arguments…they lie to themselves that if they haven't done anything physical than they haven't done anything wrong and they haven't hurt anyone.
> ...


This ^^ I *KNOW* is very true, at least in a few cases Great analogy about the frog, Jackie


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> There is _always_ a decision.
> 
> It may be difficult to see where or when this occurred, even w/ the benefit of hindsight, but make no mistake... there is ALWAYS a decision.


IMO there is no "The Decision" but a bunch of little decisions that leads down the path.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My revenge affair began with a chat between two scifi nerds about Startrek Voyager and which characters we found attractive.

She then asked me the question who I found attractive in real life and I blurted out "you."

But I don't know where that came from as she was not really very attractive. Certainly nowhere near as attractive as my wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

You're deluding yourselves, folks.

There is ALWAYS a decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

There is a moment when you justify beyond your common sense. You rationalize that this flirt or giving this compliment isn't really all that bad. That starts the snowball down the hill. People of low character are justifiers by nature and it doesn't take long for them to sway thoughts of this is wrong to thoughts of this isn't that bad to you deserve this. This becomes the foundations for rewriting history, gas lighting , causing fights with spouse to justify your actions.

All and all I agree most with the poster who said its something inside the person that make this behavior ok while other would just walk away. They make the decision but always have the justification backing them in the fantasy world they create


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> There is ALWAYS a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is such a general comment that I have trouble understanding what you mean.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

What ever the case is, there has to be a "breaking point" a point in your other's life where doing what they are doing is somehow more valuable than the consequences. How did it get to that point is the question. People just don't fall in love with someone else or want to knock some boots just on a whim (well, some do, but are the minority we aren't talking about). People slowly move along a line that has the inverse slope to their marriage happiness. Once those lines intersect and they are beyond the point of feeling like it isn't worth it is when the affair starts.

It could be a slow burn with someone else, or it could be a one-night stand. Whatever the case, that person's lines have already intersected. They may not even realize it. Nobody may realize it.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> That is such a general comment that I have trouble understanding what you mean.


At some point, everyone having an affair gives themselves the green light. What they say to themselves to allow it to happen is the decision.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I guess it makes some of you feel better to think cheats are low character or broken people. IMO, and I know many of you will strongly disagree, I think that the majority of cheating is situational and it slowly just happens. Yes, decisions are made along the way, but most people do not start the affair by saying "Today, I will start my affair". And I firmly believe that most people are at risk of cheating and that under the right set of circumstances many or most people will cheat, at least emotionally. I am defining cheating as falling in love with someone other than your spouse. I believe the physical affair has a much higher threshold to overcome. 

None of us are just "lucky" enough to find that one person in 7 billion to be our spouse. Which means that there are many many people out there that COULD have been your spouse. Instead, under the right set of circumstances we became attached to and fell in love with a specific person. Under other circumstances, that would not have happened. The same for cheating. 

I am not talking about the players, the serial cheaters, or the people that are "married" but never accepting of the monogamous part of the vows. I am talking about the people and couples that have the one-off EA or PA.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
interesting chicken / egg problem: does the dissatisfaction at home come first, or does the outside attraction come first? It may be different for different people. 






TRy said:


> I do not think that most cheaters intentionally start down a path of cheating because they want and expect something in a marriage that they are not getting. I think that when they find themselves heading down a path toward cheating with someone, they want their cake (cheating), while still being able to feel good about themselves by finding excuses to blame their spouse for the affair. Finding excuses to cheat is easy. All the cheater has to do is focus on the human imperfections of their spouse, and use these imperfections to reinvent history in claiming that these imperfection where what lead them down the path of cheating. Most betrayed spouses buy into these excuses since they have usually known about these imperfections for most of their life, so when they hear it from their cheating spouse it has a ring of truth.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't know about others but for me its simple. When my wife goes through a long phase of not wanting sex, I get frustrated and start to wonder why my vow of marriage has turned into a vow of celibacy. Other women start to look attractive and I wonder why I should be bound to my vows when my wife is ignoring hers. I haven't yet cheated or divorced but both have been close.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Well,first,you cannot compare impulsively buying things at the store to the harm caused by cheating,IMO.
> But,even ignoring the disparity in the damaged caused, I do not see how the decision to toss each item into the cart could be deemed unconcious.
> There is a distinction to be drawn between premeditation and intentionality, as reflected in the elements of first degree murder vs second degree ( although I think mos infidelity is premeditated as well as intentional.
> But,to characterize an affair that obviously requires a lot of inetional,cocious decisios as resulting from unconcious decisions ( or even more far out as an " accident) strains logic beyond recognition.
> Doing so lessens the culpability of the cheater,much like focusing on the AP and cosidering one's wiiling spouse prey or a victim is a fantasy used to comfort a BS and make a cheater less culpable.


I was not trying to compare cheating to shopping. I was trying to compare conscious intent to unconscious intent.

Pardon me, I was a bit exhausted when I wrote that post, trying to come off clear but probably not putting into clear words what my brain was thinking. 

I do think cheating is a CHOICE. By all means. I did it. I regret it, I hate it, I would love to change it – but it was always a choice. 

My point was, I don’t think all WS make a conscious choice to cheat. It’s not in their mind as a clear thought of “I’m going to hurt my spouse today! I’m going to screw up everything I have! I’m going to destroy my family! Let’s do this! Let’s get it on!” 

The trip to the grocery store was an analogical story. 

You have the WS who actively seek out an AP. Who really just don’t care what they’re doing or what destruction it leaves in their wake. They wake up in the morning (or whatever) and think to themselves “I’m gonna purse this man/woman today and I’m gonna get laid”. This person is the person I mentioned in my post that has a clear idea in their head – I’m gonna go to the store and spend frivolous money, because I can, because I want to and I don’t really care about the amount of money I’m spending.

Then you have the slower creep of a WS who may have contacted someone on FB or online, completely innocently. With no ill intention. “I’m just going to say hi, I haven’t spoken to this person in X years.” This person is the one who just went to the store for milk. They said hello (got the milk). A hi was returned. How are you? How are things? Responses are made. Suddenly some comment is made about “missing them”, “never should have let them go”. (They’ve slipped that random air freshener in their cart – it’s ONLY $5 after all). At this point, they haven’t really responded. You can’t control what someone else says to you, right? 

They’ve got some milk and some air freshener in their cart. They haven’t spent that much money (or emotions). They’re done shopping so they’re heading to the check out. “Oh look at that dog bed, I really like that. It’s only $20, no biggie” Slip it into the cart. This could be equated to a message that says “Let’s have coffee”. In the shoppers mind, $20 (coffee) is no biggie. I’m not crossing any lines, I know what I’m spending, I know what I have. I can afford this (I can handle coffee, coffee is no big deal and totally innocent). On the way out, the shopper passes a wall hanging for $50. Wow, I really like that for my living room. $50 is a great price for that! (Let’s have dinner). I can afford another $50 (dinner is surely innocent, it’s not THAT big a deal). 

After a while, the shopper is out of control. I’ve already spent $80, what’s another $5 here, $10 there? It’s JUST a few dollars (it’s just a hug, it’s just a kiss). Buying these things is making me happy, I deserve them (I’m getting high from the attention, my spouse doesn’t treat me well, I feel good when I’m with this person). 

Shopper makes it to the check out (full on physical affair). Holy crap I’ve just spent $200 when I came to spend $4. (I just wanted to say hi and now I’ve slept with him or her). 

My point is….take into consideration the affair fog, take into consideration the escalation. Someone who did not set out to cheat (spend $200). Each time they put another item into their cart (made contact), they rationalized why each choice was ok. “But it was just…….but it was just……”
Each decision WAS a CHOICE to cross a boundary. At any point, the shopper didn’t have to choose to put an item in their cart, but they did and in doing so rationalized it. They were still in control. It’s just $5! (It’s JUST coffee!). Never seeming to remember they just wanted milk (Just wanted to say hi to a long lost friend). 

Those are the types that I mean when I say they didn’t make an all out conscious choice to have an affair. Through a long chain of events, that they may at one point felt they were in control of, that were “innocent”, it escalated into more than the original intent. 

That is not to say that those people should be excused from what they did. Or that they are “better” than someone who was conscious of their decision from the first minute. The result is the same. My point is, original intent was not harm. But their series of bad decisions and crossing of boundaries led them to do something completely different than the original intent.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> You're deluding yourselves, folks.
> 
> There is ALWAYS a decision.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 The simplest answer is always the most obscure to people who don't like asking the question to begin with.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> I guess it makes some of you feel better to think cheats are low character or broken people. IMO, and I know many of you will strongly disagree, I think that the majority of cheating is situational and it slowly just happens. Yes, decisions are made along the way, but most people do not start the affair by saying "Today, I will start my affair". And I firmly believe that most people are at risk of cheating and that under the right set of circumstances many or most people will cheat, at least emotionally. I am defining cheating as falling in love with someone other than your spouse. I believe the physical affair has a much higher threshold to overcome.
> 
> None of us are just "lucky" enough to find that one person in 7 billion to be our spouse. Which means that there are many many people out there that COULD have been your spouse. Instead, under the right set of circumstances we became attached to and fell in love with a specific person. Under other circumstances, that would not have happened. The same for cheating.
> 
> I am not talking about the players, the serial cheaters, or the people that are "married" but never accepting of the monogamous part of the vows. I am talking about the people and couples that have the one-off EA or PA.


Cheating occurs due to either a lapse in integrity or a lack of integrity.

Either way, a decision is always made.

Cheating never "just happens".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Herschel said:


> What ever the case is, there has to be a "breaking point" a point in your other's life where doing what they are doing is somehow more valuable than the consequences. How did it get to that point is the question. People just don't fall in love with someone else or want to knock some boots just on a whim (well, some do, but are the minority we aren't talking about). People slowly move along a line that has the inverse slope to their marriage happiness. Once those lines intersect and they are beyond the point of feeling like it isn't worth it is when the affair starts.
> 
> It could be a slow burn with someone else, or it could be a one-night stand. Whatever the case, that person's lines have already intersected. They may not even realize it. Nobody may realize it.[/QUOT
> Yes, there is a cause and, IMO, it is a deficiency of a number of qualities within the cheater as well as the presence of certain other qualities.
> ...


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

Maxo said:


> In most marriages where one spouse cheats, the betrayed has a laundry list of dissatisfactions that could dwarf that of the cheater's but, because the fundamental difference in the cheater's makeup, as itemized above, does not cheat.


Great point.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> So why marry such a person? Surely all of these character flaws would be apparent before walking down the aisle? What does this say about the BS I wonder?


It might point to naivety. But, my reading on the Cluster B's indicates they extremely adept, through a lifetime of practice as well as their natural bent, at masking and mirroring. These qualities described above are well hidden and very hard to discern by the uninitiated.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> Do you have statistics to back up this statement? It may be better to begin by saying, "In my opinion..." when stating such a "fact." IMO, of course.



I will give a blanket caveat that all of what I say is my opinion, formed by doing a lot of reading and conversing with other betrayed folks, as well as my therapist.
So, yes, it is just my opinion. I thought that was understood.
This particular opinion was formed on the basis of my numerous conversations with other betrayed folks, reading approximately 15 books on infidelity and another 3 on personality disorders.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Yes, there is a cause and, IMO, it is a deficiency of a number of qualities within the cheater as well as the presence of certain other qualities.
> Cheaters lack integrity, impulse control , empathy, problem solving skills, communications skills among other deficiencies. They are also equipped with a much higher degree of selfishness and a sense of entitlement.
> In most marriages where one spouse cheats, the betrayed has a laundry list of dissatisfactions that could dwarf that of the cheater's but, because the fundamental difference in the cheater's makeup, as itemized above, does not cheat.


I disagree with most of this, but that does not really matter. (Yes, I know a few people who have cheated and NONE of this applies to them.) I do see however than one's perspective on this subject depends on whether they have cheated, been cheated on, or have experienced neither.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Zanne said:


> Do you have statistics to back up this statement? It may be better to begin by saying, "In my opinion..." when stating such a "fact." IMO, of course.


Everything posted in this forum is someone's opinion, because you can find also any study or statistics to back up the point you are trying to make.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> I disagree with most of this, but that does not really matter. (Yes, I know a few people who have cheated and NONE of this applies to them.) I do see however than one's perspective on this subject depends on whether they have cheated, been cheated on, or have experienced neither.


Yes, our experiences and acquaintances have , obviously differed. I have found that the folks I know well who have cheated demonstrate the qualities I mentioned in all sorts of areas of their lives besides just the marital infidelity area.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Yes, there is a cause and, IMO, it is a deficiency of a number of qualities within the cheater as well as the presence of certain other qualities.
> *Cheaters lack integrity, impulse control , empathy, problem solving skills, communications skills among other deficiencies. They are also equipped with a much higher degree of selfishness and a sense of entitlement.
> In most marriages where one spouse cheats, the betrayed has a laundry list of dissatisfactions that could dwarf that of the cheater's but, because the fundamental difference in the cheater's makeup, as itemized above, does not cheat*.


Ugh. That is why it is so important for the WS to do their work in R, so the BS can gain confidence that they are a healthier person and have "fixed" those weak areas.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think if I could point to one determining factor to one of my sons, it would be this:
Ask yourself, son, if you feel the girl you love is one who is spoiled all her life and given everything, or if she is a person that has worked hard for the nice things she has. 
I think a person who is a cheater, is one who feels entitled, but also has never had any real consequences for bad deeds in their past.

Either way, I suspect my ex will be unhappy in her marriage. She will eventually feel like she's not getting everything she needs from her dude, and start magnifying his every flaw in her mind until he repulses her. 

Cheaters are people that can't be happy--- they are incapable. They've been trained to expect someone else to give them happiness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Cheating occurs due to either a lapse in integrity or a lack of integrity.
> 
> Either way, a decision is always made.
> 
> ...


My area of interest on TAM relates more to the emotional affairs than the physical. Physical affairs are much clearer to understand and define, IMO.

With the EA it is much more difficult to define the starting point, or to understand how one got there. Yes, most of you TAMers know this subject well, but I have to admit 5 months ago I did not know what an "emotional affair" was. In hindsight it is easy to see how a person went down a particular path, but when it is happening to someone (or if you prefer, when a someone is deciding to do this) it is not always as clear or even understood. 

Great thread started @Evinrude58


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> My area of interest on TAM relates more to the emotional affairs than the physical. Physical affairs are much clearer to understand and define, IMO.
> 
> With the EA it is much more difficult to define the starting point, or to understand how one got there. Yes, most of you TAMers know this subject well, but I have to admit 5 months ago I did not know what an "emotional affair" was. In hindsight it is easy to see how a person went down a particular path, but when it is happening to someone (or if you prefer, when a someone is deciding to do this) it is not always as clear or even understood.
> 
> Great thread started @Evinrude58


For me, it was always abundantly clear when I was getting emotionally attached to another, and I am not even all the perceptive. So, I find it difficult to accept that one could go this route and be unaware of it, absent some type of diminished capacity or brain injury or something similar.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

It could be, as Max has stated, that a potential cheater has faked a lot, or used a lot of self control over their deficient/weak character areas in order to convince the uninitiated BS that they (the WS) have it all together, which for the most part they do.

Then when the right conditions line up, they fall apart and don't even bother trying to practice their better qualities, while simultaneously letting their deficiencies run rampant.

A BS should not be blamed for not seeing all the weaknesses and character flaws prior to marriage. 

Some people are very good at camouflaging areas of their personality they know will not be accepted. They take advantage of people's desire to give grace and not make rash decisions based on one offense. It is easy to get fooled, especially if the offender has a good explanation.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Maxo said:


> For me, it was always abundantly clear when I was getting emotionally attached to another, and I am not even all the perceptive. So, I find it difficult to accept that one could go this route and be unaware of it, absent some type of diminished capacity or brain injury or something similar.


Ok, but once you notice that you are "getting emotionally attached to another" isn't that the definition of the EA and therefore already in an EA? Or does something else have to happen to consider it an EA? 

Sort of like pornography. Hard to define but you know it when you see it. My problem here on TAM is that many people take a single event reported by a thread starter and shout out "She is having an (EA) affair. Check her phone, etc."


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> It could be, as Max has stated, that a potential cheater has faked a lot, or used a lot of self control over their deficient/weak character areas in order to convince the uninitiated BS that they (the WS) have it all together, which for the most part they do.
> 
> Then when the right conditions line up, they fall apart and don't even bother trying to practice their better qualities, while simultaneously letting their deficiencies run rampant.
> 
> ...


I would think it is , really, incredibly easy to go through life as a sociopath and liar ( redundant?).
As you point out, good people , simply, do not expect that a person will be a deceitful as these folks, as it is so foreign to us in the way we conduct our own lives,
Right now, if I was so inclined, I could walk out of the building I am in with wallets, purses and other valuables if I were so inclined, undetected.
Does that make the people who felt secure evil or deficient vs merely trusting?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Zanne said:


> So why marry such a person? Surely all of these character flaws would be apparent before walking down the aisle? What does this say about the BS I wonder?


 You ever test drive a car that looks good, feel's solid, fit's to your liking and you get the feeling it will be depndable?....... but then you end up buying it!!!!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

IMO the EA begins at the moment there is intent on the part of the WS, and the BS would no longer be welcome to be part of the interaction.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Zanne said:


> Do you have statistics to back up this statement? It may be better to begin by saying, "In my opinion..." when stating such a "fact." IMO, of course.


 Most English teachers would mark a paper down when you stated something by starting with "In my opinion" as it is redundant, since it is of course your opinion since you are writing it. Wait, let me restate that for you. In my opinion, most English teachers would mark a paper down when you stated something by starting with "In my opinion" as it is redundant, since it is of course your opinion since you are writing it.

The better rule is to assume that it is an opinion unless they state a source. At least that is what I was taught.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> So why marry such a person? Surely all of these character flaws would be apparent before walking down the aisle? What does this say about the BS I wonder?


Sometimes they aren't and sometimes they are. Can take years or decades for someone's true nature to come out. I knew my X cheated before Us. I had the knowledge. But I was young and naive and when I heard from her that he X husband abused her and she stood there with tears in her eyes swearing she would never hurt me and never cheat because I wasn't like him I bought it.

In reality it says nothing about the BS. I don't know of anyone who marries expecting they will get cheated on


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> It could be, as Max has stated, that a potential cheater has faked a lot, or used a lot of self control over their deficient/weak character areas in order to convince the uninitiated BS that they (the WS) have it all together, which for the most part they do.
> *
> Then when the right conditions line up, they fall apart and don't even bother trying to practice their better qualities, while simultaneously letting their deficiencies run rampant.
> *
> A BS should not be blamed for not seeing all the weaknesses and character flaws prior to marriage.





Zanne said:


> The bolded part could describe many people. We all fall short of perfection. After all, we live in a fallen world.


I think you missed the point, which is the bolded part.

Yes, we live in a fallen world. I too am a person with flaws, and so I try to protect those flaws from being exploited by myself or others.

For example, I am capable of committing adultery. Knowing that, I make sure to never get myself into situations with men that could turn "iffy".

Living in a fallen world does not give me an excuse to not try to be the best I can, and not keep my weaknesses from ruining my and other people's lives.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I did something just last night that could’ve potentially sent my H reeling and into panic mode, without even thinking about it. 

I’ve mentioned before that I run (with a friend) a non-profit organization where we collect gently used prom and homecoming dresses and give them to girls that can’t afford them. Since prom season is coming around, we’re on a big push right now. I read FB from my phone 99.9999% of the time. Which means my password is stored and I don’t have to enter it to sign on. 

We run the FB page for our dresses through the facebook page management apps on our phones. For some reason, the page manager app needed updated and my phone won’t update it. So I can see that we were getting messages from people that wanted to donate dresses or needed dresses. Every time I would try to open a message, the app would crash and I couldn’t read the messages. So my friend was having to field every single message we got. I told her yesterday I would sign on to my computer so that I could read and answer some of the messages.

I had changed my FB password a couple months ago and gave it to my H immediately. But when I went to sign on yesterday I couldn’t remember the password, so I had a text sent to my phone to reset the password. (H wasn’t home so I couldn’t ask him for my PW). I changed the PW, signed on and answered some messages. I wasn’t even thinking and didn’t give my H the new PW. It hit me today, just now reading @blueinbr ‘s post about one isolated incident leading people to scream “she’s having an EA, check her phone!” I immediately sent my H a text, telling him what I changed the PW to and why. 

Hopefully he didn’t try to sign on last night or earlier today to see that the PW was changed and freak out. I feel pretty bad now, but something as small as that COULD cause suspicion.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> I did something just last night that could’ve potentially sent my H reeling and into panic mode, without even thinking about it.
> 
> I’ve mentioned before that I run (with a friend) a non-profit organization where we collect gently used prom and homecoming dresses and give them to girls that can’t afford them. Since prom season is coming around, we’re on a big push right now. I read FB from my phone 99.9999% of the time. Which means my password is stored and I don’t have to enter it to sign on.
> 
> ...


Maybe I have your story confused so forgive me if I do but didn't you cheat on your husband? If so this would not be small and would cause anyone to pause. It would be small if this occurred in a realtionship with no infidelity


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Maybe I have your story confused so forgive me if I do but didn't you cheat on your husband? If so this would not be small and would cause anyone to pause. It would be small if this occurred in a realtionship with no infidelity


Yes, you are correct. 

I didn't mean "small" in the grand scheme of things. I meant small in the context of what had actually happened. A small oops of forgetfulness, not small by what it could have caused as far as making my H feel bad. 

Basically, my actual action was totally unintentional, forgetful, there wasn't any malice or secrecy behind it. That's what I meant by "small"


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Herschel said:


> I don't disagree with that in simplistic terms. But is seems like a response to an issue that doesn't actually get to the root of the problem. Sometimes we need to know the root of the problem, even if we don't keep the cheater. Sometimes it's partially our fault why the marriage is in the shape it is in. We may need to know to make ourselves better. Maybe it's all them and we need to know that too to make ourselves feel better.
> 
> I just have a hard time thinking anyone is a bad person. Maybe it's the moral relativist in me, but everyone has motivations and justifications. From Hitler and terrorists to cheating spouses. It's not like I'm going to say, oh Hitler, I get it know, we are cool. But to know the reasons behind acts that appear unfathomable, that is how we get a better understanding of the problem and ourselves.
> 
> ...


It's real simple. You can wring your hands about it or point fingers all you want, but it really comes down to this:

Lots of people deserve to be dumped. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.

There is a vast gulf between the two. If your marriage sucks and you're thinking about cheating, do your spouse a favour and clue them in by starting a divorce. If you want to reconcile, that's when you put the stuff on the table to fix.

Saying "I cheated because my marriage sucks" is pure cowardice or arrogance. Maybe both. And a total lack of accountability either way.

And don't kid yourself. Making your marriage good is no guarantee of fidelity. You may swing a few percentage points in your favour, but that's about it. Don't think that you're really doing much.

Because for the vast majority of people the sole reason they don't cheat is because they're afraid they would get caught.

Not because there's anything wrong with their marriage.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> I think the confusion is coming from the fact that there is a difference between a conscious decision and an unconscious decision.
> 
> A conscious decision would be to wake up and say "oh I'm going to have an affair today!", go out, find someone and f them.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure I buy that.

At some point, you decided to cross the line, right?

I'm not saying that to hurt you or shame you, I'm saying that because I think you made a conscious split second decision to do that.

You knew that when you did it, right?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> I've seen someone post several times a list of "how an affair starts" but can't find it. Could someone post it or a link please?
> Wanted to read it again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Sexual mismatch.


HD spouse with a LD spouse.

- they talk about it
- nothing really happens on the LD spouses part
- HD spouse does most if not all the compromising
- HD spouse is starved, weak, vulnerable
- LD is happy and clueless
- Another HD individual meets the starved, weak HD spouse
- they obviously hit it off
- they connect because they're both HD
- the starved, weak HD spouse eats all this attention like candy
- HD spouse isn't getting their needs met at home
- one thing leads to another fast
- they have sex and often
- the HD spouse is now getting their needs met
- LD spouse is clueless and thinks things are great the way they are
- eventually the HD spouse leaves the LD spouse
- or the LD spouse finds out and honestly blames the HD spouse
- LD spouse moves on and this wasn't their fault
- It's all the HD spouses fault

Rinse and repeat.


When married, etc. each spouse is to take care of each others needs as their own.

They are not their own anymore.

This is not the case for LD's, they are special.:wink2:


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> I'm not sure I buy that.
> 
> At some point, you decided to cross the line, right?
> 
> ...


See my second post on the "shopper" in this thread.

Yes, you decide to cross the line. My point was, some people actually set out TO do it. Others continually choose to cross boundaries and rationalize, but never originally had the intent.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> The bolded part could describe many people. We all fall short of perfection. After all, we live in a fallen world.


 @Zanne, in fairness, this could be used to justify any poor behavior. This thread was started with the subject of infidelity and how it starts.

Why is this thread in particular bringing out defensiveness in you? 

Conviction is a powerful tool that He uses for us to have self reflection.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Zanne said:


> So why marry such a person? Surely all of these character flaws would be apparent before walking down the aisle? What does this say about the BS I wonder?


I was married 23 years before i cheated. Hubby said he thought I was the last person who would do this. So, there ya go!


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> See my second post on the "shopper" in this thread.
> 
> Yes, you decide to cross the line. My point was, some people actually set out TO do it. Others continually choose to cross boundaries and rationalize, but never originally had the intent.


Sorry, not fully caught up. 

I 100% get that you didn't intend for it to happen. I'm trying to shine a light on the cognitive process you went through during that split second that someone decided to cross the line. Because for betrayed spouses, of which you are also one, that point is hard to wrap your head around. 

Again, you don't need to answer and I'm not shaming you or beating up on you. You've fully taken accountability for your actions, and I salute you for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

I prefer the term "people who cheated" rather than "cheaters".

ETA: Please do not "like" this. I do not want this to be a rallying point for cheaters. I was just expressing MY thoughts.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> ^^^This post makes more sense. Previously, you said, "Then when the right conditions line up, *they* fall apart and don't even bother trying to practice their better qualities, while simultaneously letting their deficiencies run rampant." My point was that cheaters are not set apart from everyone else. You are admitting that you could be a cheater if not for your careful actions to avoid such situations. That says to me that most of us have the same character weaknesses. Therefore, it is not the person but their _actions_ which are flawed.


How do actions come about?

Not arbitrarily, but through _choice_.

If one wants better outcomes, one must make better choices.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> This thread was started with the subject of infidelity and how it starts.


I think OP started this thread because he was looking for a very specific posting to give to another OP (whose wife was thought might be undertaking cheating behaviors)

ETA: But it turned out to be a really good thread, at least so far if it does not polarize TAM into two camps.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> I cheated on my husband. Therefore, according to your list above, those character flaws define who I am as a person. Well, I wholeheartedly disagree. I think they define my _actions_ during a certain part of my life.
> 
> It is easy to sit on high and say that you would never <insert bad deed here>. I have sinned in my life, but there are also many areas of my life which show integrity and impulse control and the ability to solve problems, etc. Some days are better than others. For example, on a lighter note, on certain days of the month I may choose to eat an extra sweet just because I feel like "I deserve it." There goes my impulse control!
> 
> ...


Sorry Zanne I don't buy that at all. 

Sure, cheaters aren't evil in terms of hitler and Mephistopheles. 

But I don't think they serve themselves or anyone else well to just shrug their shoulders and say "sometimes good people do bad things."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> I will admit that my question about the BS was misleading. I certainly did NOT mean the BS is responsible in anyway for their partner's actions. I am questioning the practice of demonizing the WS to the point where it appears 100% of the blame for the downfall of the marriage is on them.


Except that it is 100% on them. 

If the marriage fails because of the infidelity, it's their fault. End of story. 

Lots deserve to be dumped. Nobody deserves to be cheated on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Couple of points to remember:
- people do not cheat because their marriages suck. That is an excuse, not a reason.
- Not everyone who cheats has an affair. My husband didn't.
- People can and do change over time. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not.
- Every cheater who has ever cheated has made a choice in the matter. Every single one. You can try all you want to define the moment of that choice, but it's going to be different for everyone.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> Sorry, not fully caught up.
> 
> I 100% get that you didn't intend for it to happen. I'm trying to shine a light on the cognitive process you went through during that split second that someone decided to cross the line. Because for betrayed spouses, of which you are also one, that point is hard to wrap your head around.
> 
> ...


You know I’m an open book on what I did. 

I CAN say there was never a conscious “Yep, I’m gonna do this”. Or a “Yep, I’ve decided this can happen”. 

My actual conscious decision didn’t come until I decided to actually stop. Leading up to it was more of a fog, stuck in the moment, not thinking about anything but my selfish needs at the time, I wasn’t THINKING of anyone but ME. Until I did cross the line. Only then did I finally have the moment of clarity I never should have had to have in the first place.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

My H has also admitted that with his contact with his ex during our separation that he wasn’t thinking of anything but the moment, feeling better, his head was a mess, he didn’t even really understand what he was doing because things were so bad at home being over with us, his thoughts were a blur, mostly revenge, not clear at all. Initial contact wasn’t premeditated to hurt me, more a result of a series of bad choices.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> You know I’m an open book on what I did.
> 
> I CAN say there was never a conscious “Yep, I’m gonna do this”. Or a “Yep, I’ve decided this can happen”.
> 
> My actual conscious decision didn’t come until I decided to actually stop. Leading up to it was more of a fog, stuck in the moment, not thinking about anything but my selfish needs at the time, I wasn’t THINKING of anyone but ME. Until I did cross the line. Only then did I finally have the moment of clarity I never should have had to have in the first place.


What went through your head in the split second before you kissed him? Or when you did more?

Nothing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

LosingHim said:


> Only then did I finally have the moment of clarity I never should have had to have in the first place.


Not to pick on you specifically, but if any WS's could answer this:

Did you not know that what you were doing was wrong though? Did you not know, as you were doing whatever you did to lead up to this point, that your behaviour was wrong?


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

marduk said:


> Sorry Zanne I don't buy that at all.
> 
> Sure, cheaters aren't evil in terms of hitler and Mephistopheles.
> 
> ...


No, but it could be "sometimes normally good people do something really bad to cause immense pain to their spouse and destruction of their marriage"


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> - Not everyone who cheats has an affair.


Are you referring to a ONS?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

blueinbr said:


> No, but it could be "sometimes normally good people do something really bad to cause immense pain to their spouse and destruction of their marriage"


Sure, and then what?

If I cheat on my wife, do I just label it a one off bad thing I did in the context of a pretty upstanding husband for the rest of the time?

"Sure babe, I slept with this one girl just this one time. But think about all the times I didn't! That makes me an awesome husband 99.999999% of the time. You should be happy with me!"


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Are you referring to a ONS?


That's one of the ways someone can cheat without having an affair.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

blueinbr said:


> Are you referring to a ONS?


My story link is in my sig if you care to read it.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I’ve laid out my whole story before. Leading up to things (mine was a one time, isolated incident – not excusing – giving background) when he was just saying things to me, I didn’t think much. He was a friend, he was my H’s best friend. I trusted him. I figured it was alcohol talking, didn’t feel unsafe, I kind of brushed the words off as a joke. As the words continued….I did start to feed into them. I felt hot, I felt desired, someone was paying attention to me and I had been attention starved for so long. I fed WAY into those good feelings and I didn’t really think too much about anything BUT feeling good. I thought about myself and only myself right then. No, I was not really thinking of my H. Thinking back, I was mostly just justifying that I needed to feel good because I hadn’t felt good for so long.

When he first kissed me, I told him to stop. I pushed him away. At this point I still didn’t really feel unsafe. I didn’t like what had happened, but I still rationalized it was just alcohol, it was just a mistake. He was my friend, he wouldn’t do anything more once I told him to stop. Yeah, I thought it was bad, but I still thought that I could control the situation. 

More smooth talking, more compliments, more ego stroking and my delusional brain just ate it up like it was something I deserved. I knew the physical part was wrong, but at the time, the words were JUST words. Who cared about WORDS? I deserved to feel good damnit! 

A bit later is when he demanded the BJ. I just wanted to go home, I didn’t like the situation any more, I didn’t want it to go any further, I didn’t want any of it. He told me if I did it he’d take me home. It was 2-3AM, I had on heels and could have walked barefoot. My deluded brain rationalized, if I just do this, he’ll leave me alone. I can just go home after this. Just get it over with. I gave in to what he wanted, but I didn’t value myself or my husband enough to say no. 

I DIDN’T think of my husband. All I thought at the time was that I allowed him to stroke my ego, I used his words to validate myself. I flirted to get more attention. In ways I encouraged his compliments so I could get more. I felt like I led him on. If I led him on, and I just did this, I could go home. So I started. 30 seconds to a minute in, I stopped. I said “I can’t do this”. Unfortunately, it just hit me too late that what I was doing was wrong. I DIDN’T think about the right things until it was too late. I only thought about myself.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> ... I am questioning the practice of demonizing the WS to the point where it appears 100% of the blame for the downfall of the marriage is on them.


I disagree with this premise. 

What you are speaking of is perspective. If your perspective was different, you wouldn't see the demonization. You'd see where it was truth and where it was bitterness. It wouldn't bother you as it does, because you would accept responsibility for your actions and reject responsibility that is not due to your actions. 

100% of the blame for the downfall of the marital relationship is on the spouses. 

The affair is 100% the fault of the WS and AP. 

I say this because the WS and/or the AP could have done something else. There were choices, though they may not have seen them. 

I believe the same with the marital relationship's breakdown. There were choices, though they may not have seen them. 

My hope is that you see this some day. It must be exhausting to have to defend yourself all the time. You really don't have to when you accept only what is your responsibility.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> I’ve laid out my whole story before. Leading up to things (mine was a one time, isolated incident – not excusing – giving background) when he was just saying things to me, I didn’t think much. He was a friend, he was my H’s best friend. I trusted him. I figured it was alcohol talking, didn’t feel unsafe, I kind of brushed the words off as a joke. As the words continued….I did start to feed into them. I felt hot, I felt desired, someone was paying attention to me and I had been attention starved for so long. I fed WAY into those good feelings and I didn’t really think too much about anything BUT feeling good. I thought about myself and only myself right then. No, I was not really thinking of my H. Thinking back, I was mostly just justifying that I needed to feel good because I hadn’t felt good for so long.
> 
> When he first kissed me, I told him to stop. I pushed him away. At this point I still didn’t really feel unsafe. I didn’t like what had happened, but I still rationalized it was just alcohol, it was just a mistake. He was my friend, he wouldn’t do anything more once I told him to stop. Yeah, I thought it was bad, but I still thought that I could control the situation.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. You're basically saying one thing led to another, and at no point did it cross your mind that you were about to cheat on your husband and maybe you should stop. Until it was already happening.

Do I have that right?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> Thanks for that. You're basically saying one thing led to another, and at no point did it cross your mind that you were about to cheat on your husband and maybe you should stop. Until it was already happening.
> 
> Do I have that right?


Pretty much correct. It wasn’t a long, drawn out thing. There wasn’t days, weeks, months leading up to this physical thing. It all happened in one drunken night over a time frame that’s pretty much a blur. 

Had this been a stranger, I may have felt more impending danger. (I’ve told my H this) I may have picked up more on these red flags. But since he was a friend and was trusted, I didn’t read too much into the intentions that were there on his end. I just kept excusing the advances and compliments as drunkenness, him being too comfortable with me as friends that he thought he could say inappropriate things and it wasn’t a big deal because we were “just friends” talking. An outsider may have set off more warning bells in me that I was on dangerous ground. I’ve thwarted many an advance in my day……able to at least recognize when someone had intentions that were more than just telling me I was hot. With my OM, since that trust factor was there, since we were friends I think it was easier for me to justify in my mind that “nothing bad was gonna happen”. Until something bad happened.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

marduk said:


> Thanks for that. You're basically saying, *under the influence of alcohol* one thing led to another, and at no point did it cross your mind that you were about to cheat on your husband and maybe you should stop. Until it was already happening.
> 
> Do I have that right?


Fixed that so it reads how I read it. I added, "under the influence of alcohol", and italicized it.

Edit: Had to make the text bold because the quote is italicized and it looked like your words.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

LosingHim said:


> Pretty much correct. It wasn’t a long, drawn out thing. There wasn’t days, weeks, months leading up to this physical thing. It all happened in one drunken night over a time frame that’s pretty much a blur.
> 
> Had this been a stranger, I may have felt more impending danger. (I’ve told my H this) I may have picked up more on these red flags. But since he was a friend and was trusted, I didn’t read too much into the intentions that were there on his end. I just kept excusing the advances and compliments as drunkenness, him being too comfortable with me as friends that he thought he could say inappropriate things and it wasn’t a big deal because we were “just friends” talking. An outsider may have set off more warning bells in me that I was on dangerous ground. I’ve thwarted many an advance in my day……able to at least recognize when someone had intentions that were more than just telling me I was hot. With my OM, since that trust factor was there, since we were friends I think it was easier for me to justify in my mind that “nothing bad was gonna happen”. Until something bad happened.


Let me start off by saying that I believe you, but I struggle with this.

Every time I've kissed or gone down on a woman, it was with the decision and intention to do so. Even when she leaned in to kiss me first, I decided to kiss her back or not. 

So what I'm really struggling with is at some point during the physical act of leaning in for that kiss or going downtown... That nothing clicked.

Again, I'm not saying I don't believe you. I get that it was a muddle and a bad situation and that he basically coerced you into doing it. Maybe it's me as a guy. Or maybe it's how I am.

I guess what I'm relating to is my wife's EA. When she decided to text him that first time and hide it from me... She knew something was wrong. But she's adamant that at that point she didn't really decide to do something wrong, that she just reached out to him. And then she knew that it would hurt me and her marriage, so she deleted it and didn't tell me about it. And then the texting and phone calling started to happen. And after each time she felt bad, but during each time she felt like she wasn't doing anything wrong.

And then the guilt got better of her and she told me. That part I get. What I'm struggling with is the cycle of doing something -> thinking about it -> feeling bad about it -> doing something bad again.

Know what I mean?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Fixed that so it reads how I read it. I added, "under the influence of alcohol", and italicized it.
> 
> Edit: Had to make the text bold because the quote is italicized and it looked like your words.


Yes, I was under the heavy influence of alcohol. As I’ve stated before, we had been drinking for something around 10-12 hours, many beers, numerous shots. We drank from early afternoon until the wee hours of the morning. Conversely, I don’t know how I was even standing. I honestly don’t even think I have ever drank that much in my life. But somehow, no black outs and not even a hangover. 

It is NOT an excuse. It IS part of the story.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Well, I do see a few decisions here



LosingHim said:


> I’ve laid out my whole story before. Leading up to things (mine was a one time, isolated incident – not excusing – giving background) when he was just saying things to me, I didn’t think much. He was a friend, he was my H’s best friend. I trusted him. *I figured it was alcohol talking*(bad decision), didn’t feel unsafe, *I kind of brushed the words off as a joke*(bad decision). As the words continued….*I did start to feed into them*(bad decision). I felt hot, I felt desired, someone was paying attention to me and I had been attention starved for so long. I fed WAY into those good feelings and I didn’t really think too much about anything BUT feeling good. I thought about myself and only myself right then. No, I was not really thinking of my H. Thinking back,* I was mostly just justifying that I needed to feel good because I hadn’t felt good for so long*(bad decision).
> 
> When he first kissed me, *I told him to stop. I pushed him away*(GOOD decision). At this point I still didn’t really feel unsafe. I didn’t like what had happened, but I still rationalized it was just alcohol, it was just a mistake. He was my friend, he wouldn’t do anything more once I told him to stop. Yeah, I thought it was bad,* but I still thought that I could control the situation*(bad decision).


 I won't go on

I am sorry, it seems like I am picking on you but that isn't my intent. I know you're very remorseful and a valuable WS on TAM and I don't want to get your back up because I really do like you


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> I will admit that my question about the BS was misleading. I certainly did NOT mean the BS is responsible in anyway for their partner's actions. I am questioning the practice of demonizing the WS to the point where it appears 100% of the blame for the downfall of the marriage is on them.


Well in my personal case the ws had the affair. That was the end of the marriage. So yes she was 100% the cause of that. The choice to have an affair is 100% on the ws. That doesn't always mean the BS is an angel with a halo. But it also doesn't mean they have anything to do with the affair. The behavior of the BS has an effect of the marriage not the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, I do see a few decisions here
> 
> I won't go on
> 
> I am sorry, it seems like I am picking on you but that isn't my intent. I know you're very remorseful and a valuable WS on TAM and I don't want to get your back up because I really do like you


No......you're 100% right. I made a lot of decisions. ALL bad ones. 

Hindsight is 20/20. 

I'll be the first to admit that in the moment pretty much every decision I made was wrong. That's something I can never fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Speaking as a former Disloyal Spouse, I have a major problem with what @Zanne and @LosingHim are saying. I do understand that to them, inside their head, that is how it seemed. You might even say something cliche like "That's their reality." 

However, I believe that every single adult is personally responsible for their choices--whether they are conscious choices or closer to "semi-conscious" choices made based on emotion. I had an online affair, and no I did not consciously think to myself "Oh today I'm going to go pursue adultery" nor anything close. What I DID do was avoid the "thinking" and just ride the tide of emotions, and then justify avoiding the necessity of thinking. 

I'll give you an example. I met my OM via an online game. At that point RIGHT THERE I could have chosen to play with my spouse or to not play, and I wasn't consciously choosing to play specifically to cut him out, but I rode the emotions of wanting to have some fun and being tired of being ignored. The OM started complimenting me, saying I was a good player, and wanting to work together on certain projects, and RIGHT THERE I could have chosen to mention my husband or say "Thanks but no thanks, I'm a married lady and I protect my marriage by only playing with other ladies" or "Hey thanks for the compliments but I'm a solo player" but rather than THINKING and making the choice purposefully, I chose to avoid thinking and ride the emotion of feeling good from the ego stroke...and not avoiding getting more! It may not have "felt" intentional, but it was still a DECISION and a CHOICE I made for which I both reaped the benefit and paid the cost! 

See why I have a huge issue with this? It may have been a knee-jerk reaction and didn't feel like there was intentional thought going on ... and honestly I think most times it's not an INTENTION! But as an adult I'm responsible for knowing myself well enough to know my weak spots and issues from the past that are going to put myself and my marriage in danger. If I know that I'm susceptible to compliments, then I have a duty to my husband to only get compliments from him. OR I am responsible to get my behind end to counseling to find out what that's an issue for me and then do the hard work to bolster my own self-worth so I'm not susceptible and able to resist ... consciously! 

Either way, I am the one responsible. And I think this is the GIGANTIC message that so many Disloyals just can not get.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I TOTALLY get what I did now. I've admitted a million times that in the moment, I was selfish and only thought of myself. 

My intention was never to cheat. Never even a thought. 

In hindsight, yes, I made a HUGE string of bad decisions. Decisions only I am responsible for. Before that moment, I never had an intention to do what I did. My ONS was a result of a whole string of bad decisions and loose boundaries that in my delusion I did not recognize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't think you're understanding what I'm getting at and I think you may be feeling attacked about it which isn't my intention, so I'll leave it be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

marduk said:


> I don't think you're understanding what I'm getting at and I think you may be feeling attacked about it which isn't my intention, so I'll leave it be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Same here.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Speaking as a former Disloyal Spouse, I have a major problem with what @Zanne and @LosingHim are saying. I do understand that to them, inside their head, that is how it seemed. You might even say something cliche like "That's their reality."
> 
> However, I believe that every single adult is personally responsible for their choices--whether they are conscious choices or closer to "semi-conscious" choices made based on emotion. I had an online affair, and no I did not consciously think to myself "Oh today I'm going to go pursue adultery" nor anything close. What I DID do was avoid the "thinking" and just ride the tide of emotions, and then justify avoiding the necessity of thinking.
> 
> ...


I think you're saying the same thing. In the moment you made the wrong choices, but now you can recognize that and own it. So do they, from everything I've read.

I also think I hear admission that you not only made those bad choices, but ALSO chose to pretend you weren't making those bad choices at the time. Am I hearing that right? Because I know that's exactly what my husband did.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I think you're saying the same thing. In the moment you made the wrong choices, but now you can recognize that and own it. So do they, from everything I've read.
> 
> I also think I hear admission that you not only made those bad choices, but ALSO chose to pretend you weren't making those bad choices at the time. Am I hearing that right? Because I know that's exactly what my husband did.


So, when do you think it starts? 

For me, it seems the affair starts when there are two willing people.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> So, when do you think it starts?
> 
> For me, it seems the affair starts when there are two willing people.


My husband cheated but didn't have an affair. He started cheating the weekend he started sex chatting. He agrees with me on that now.

As for an affair, I think it can start at different times for both affair partners. Maybe one pursues the other, or one lives in a perpetual state of wanting-to-cheat, while the other has to be convinced. I think someone can be a cheater without having cheated, too, if their state of mind is such that they're seeking it out. But only the person who owns the brain really knows. You can go back and analyze a sequence of events later and try to figure it all out, but really, in the end, does it matter? My definition of cheating isn't necessarily the same as yours, either, just to further complicate things


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Zanne said:


> What about if the marriage has already failed? It is just a skeleton - staying together for the kids, finances, fear, etc. THEN the infidelity happens. Still 100% the fault of the WS? The entire failing of the marriage??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't forget that the cheating and the state of the marriage have to be separated. They're two separate entities. The WS is 100% responsible for their choice to cheat. 

Both the BS and WS, just like every married couple on the planet, are both responsible for the state of their marriage. Trying to assign a percentage to that is meaningless - it should be 100% for both spouses if you want my opinion.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> What about if the marriage has already failed? It is just a skeleton - staying together for the kids, finances, fear, etc. THEN the infidelity happens. Still 100% the fault of the WS? The entire failing of the marriage??


Absolutely. 100%.

Why?

Because some things are unrecoverable. I can push someone to throw a punch at me, but it all changes when my nose is broken.

Sure, I'm angry. But the damage came from the punch.

If you want to leave, leave. If you tell your spouse "our marriage is a skeleton, I'm leaving you" and then leave, so be it.

But all too often one spouse decides "our marriage is a skeleton," does some half-hearted efforts to make it better, then decides that the marriage is dead and acts like it. Without, you know, having the intestinal fortitude to inform the spouse.

When I'm driving, my spouse can distract me, and I could run someone over. Did they contribute to my distraction? Sure. But I'm 100% to blame for running someone over, because I chose to allow myself to be distracted, and someone got hurt. I can't take that back.

When I'm angry, my spouse can be the cause of that anger. But if I hit her, I'm 100% to blame for hurting her. And it's something that will forever change both of us. And if our marriage ends because I hit her, that's on me 100%. She doesn't share the blame for my abuse because she pissed me off.

If my wife blows $1K on something stupid, and in response to and blow $100K and we lose the house... 100% on me.

Etc.

I really, truly struggle with growing and 'no longer being a cheater' when you seem to really want to spread the accountability around.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> My husband cheated but didn't have an affair. He started cheating the weekend he started sex chatting. He agrees with me on that now.
> 
> As for an affair, I think it can start at different times for both affair partners. Maybe one pursues the other, or one lives in a perpetual state of wanting-to-cheat, while the other has to be convinced. I think someone can be a cheater without having cheated, too, if their state of mind is such that they're seeking it out. But only the person who owns the brain really knows. You can go back and analyze a sequence of events later and try to figure it all out, but really, in the end, does it matter? My definition of cheating isn't necessarily the same as yours, either, just to further complicate things


What are your definitions for "affair" and "cheating"? I tend to use them interchangeably. For me, they are simply the same, whether EA or PA.

I think what you are trying to say is that there are many things which some would think are minor and you see as major beginnings? 

I suppose an affair could be of the heart and cheating could be just meeting the emotional needs of someone other than the spouse?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> What are your definitions for "affair" and "cheating"? I tend to use them interchangeably. For me, they are simply the same, whether EA or PA.
> 
> I think what you are trying to say is that there are many things which some would think are minor and you see as major beginnings?
> 
> I suppose an affair could be of the heart and cheating could be just meeting the emotional needs of someone other than the spouse?


I think of cheating as the act of cheating. It could be a ONS, lying to your partner about how much time you're spending with someone else, or having sex with someone else.

I think of an affair as an actual relationship with someone else. In a way that a casual hookup might not be, or that kind of thing.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yep, pretty much what marduk said. Affair = 2 people, one or both of whom are cheating on a spouse. Cheating = something a spouse does which their partner would consider to be infidelity, so that could be a happy ending massage, a hooker, sex chatting, a drunken ONS, etc.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

There are, in fact two classes of people @Zanne. 

Those that are willing to cheat, and those that aren't. 

The vast majority of people are willing to cheat if they thought they wouldn't get caught or care much if they did. That was you. 

Then there's the people that just aren't willing to cheat, even if their relationship sucks or they don't think they could get caught. I like to think that's me, and I've been tested and so far passed the test. Maybe it's you now. 

But it really is that simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> Well, I disagree. I told my husband that I wanted a divorce and his response was to start loading his gun in front of me. Sometimes it's about not having the intestinal fortitude to _leave_ the spouse. Abuse can really mess with your mind and make you feel like there are no options. When I say that I really didn't care about how my affair affected my husband, I mean it. His feelings mattered not to me at the time.


Then you should have left him for threatening violence and increased your risk by cheating. 

I don't buy it at all. 

I was abused by my ex. I didn't cheat on her even when our marriage was terrible and she was throwing frying pans at my head and refusing sex. Even when offered by other women. 

I was thinking about leaving her, though. 

See the difference?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> What about if the marriage has already failed? It is just a skeleton - staying together for the kids, finances, fear, etc. *THEN the infidelity happens. Still 100% the fault of the WS?* The entire failing of the marriage??


You question if the fault might be laid on the BS, then below and in the same post ...




> I posted this here earlier and on other threads in the past... *to be clear, I do NOT believe the BS has ANY blame for the affair.* The fault lies with the WS. The downfall of the marriage is a different story.
> 
> In other words, I don't agree with Maxo that the BS probably had a bigger list of complaints about the WS before the cheating happened (but since they are so perfect, they chose not to cheat). I think both parties are responsible for the breakdown of the relationship. It may not be 50/50 every time - there are some crummy stories out there, but the BS is not blameless for the downfall of their marriage.


You are very conflicted. 

I wasn't commenting on Maxo's post in support or rejection. I didn't really care what his opinion was. I was feeling bad for you and wanted you to know that you don't have to be so confused. 

Maxo's post comes from bitterness. I can't blame a BS for feeling bitter, though we all do/say things that will hurt someone's feelings. Sometimes, they are intentional and sometimes they are not.

I don't think my ex, and I'm talking about my second exwife, had more issues than I do. (I'm not even considering my first ex one way or another.) I do not know for certain though, since I'm not a doctor of psychology or psychiatry. I haven't and won't ask my counselor such an immature question.

I don't believe the BS is blameless for the marital relationship breaking down. To what extent each is responsible, is subjective in many instances.

Any infidelity is on the spouse who committed it, alone.(Edited: The AP has some of the blame and any percentage between the WS and AP adds to 100%.)

I do know that I did things that led to the breakdown of intimacy, though some were my fault and some were likely due to health issues. I know she did things that led to the breakdown of intimacy.

Still, I do have a responsibility to check on myself and keep myself as healthy as possible. If I didn't, maybe I was depressed? Is that my fault? Maybe, maybe not, the jury is out on that. It is an excuse, though it may be true. I accept that. There is no hidden message in this paragraph and I'm trying to be as open as possible with you.

I'm not writing any hidden messages at all. 

I don't know you personally. I haven't read enough of your hideously long thread where I know you've been repeatedly attacked. I have wondered after a few posts I've read, what the problems were that caused such pain in you. 

I don't know if I've ever ripped into you, but I don't remember doing so. 

I'm sorry I make you uneasy. If I do, and I'm not trying, maybe you need to look inward?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> Well, I disagree. I told my husband that I wanted a divorce and his response was to start loading his gun in front of me. Sometimes it's about not having the intestinal fortitude to _leave_ the spouse. Abuse can really mess with your mind and make you feel like there are no options. When I say that I really didn't care about how my affair affected my husband, I mean it. His feelings mattered not to me at the time.


Got a link? I'd like to read this in detail.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Situations in real life can be complicated.

Imagine a woman with a couple of kids. Husband adjust his work schedule to avoid being home. He sleeps at home, but nothing more. He might or might not be cheating - wife doesn't know, but there is no specific evidence that he is. Sex, kisses, even a gentle touch never happen. He isn't abusive in the normal sense, he doesn't beat her, he provides enough money for her and the kids to have a physically comfortable life. He is just absent. She has been a stay at home mom for a long time. No marketable skills. She tries a part time job but can't make a significant amount of money.

She really can't divorce - she would put herself and more importantly her kids in a much worse situation. They would have to move out of their neighborhood, out of their schools. One of the children has some emotional issues - upsetting her life would not be good right now. 

The wife is lonely, she is missing the attention from the man the she loves - or at least used to love long ago. She runs into an old male friend from high school. They talk, she can see his interest - she is still a beautiful woman. Can you fault her for sliding into an affair when this is the first person to show her affection in such a long time?


Not a made up story. I'm guessing at some of this, but I think I'm describing my parents. I can't fault my mother for what I suspect was an affair that I was only dimly aware of when I was very young.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Re: How an affair startse*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Situations in real life can be complicated.
> 
> Imagine a woman with a couple of kids. Husband adjust his work schedule to avoid being home. He sleeps at home, but nothing more. He might or might not be cheating - wife doesn't know, but there is no specific evidence that he is. Sex, kisses, even a gentle touch never happen. He isn't abusive in the normal sense, he doesn't beat her, he provides enough money for her and the kids to have a physically comfortable life. He is just absent. She has been a stay at home mom for a long time. No marketable skills. She tries a part time job but can't make a significant amount of money.
> ...


Yup, her fault. 

She could have left him. Or she could have told your father "you haven't been paying attention to me and having sex with me. I'm getting attracted to someone else. I can get attention from him or you, that's your choice."


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

*Re: How an affair startse*

Good evening
for many people in the real world, leaving is not as easy as it sounds.

I could leave, I have a job, savings etc. You can probably leave. For many people, especially women with children, leaving is a huge problem. 

The affair (if it actually happened, not clear to a child what was going on) didn't last. She turned to alcohol instead, which I guess might be considered morally superior. 




marduk said:


> Yup, her fault.
> 
> She could have left him. Or she could have told your father "you haven't been paying attention to me and having sex with me. I'm getting attracted to someone else. I can get attention from him or you, that's your choice."


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> Situations in real life can be complicated.
> 
> Imagine a woman with a couple of kids. Husband adjust his work schedule to avoid being home. He sleeps at home, but nothing more. He might or might not be cheating - wife doesn't know, but there is no specific evidence that he is. Sex, kisses, even a gentle touch never happen. He isn't abusive in the normal sense, he doesn't beat her, he provides enough money for her and the kids to have a physically comfortable life. He is just absent. She has been a stay at home mom for a long time. No marketable skills. She tries a part time job but can't make a significant amount of money.
> ...


What I'm getting out of this is projection, and I didn't read the whole thing. 

What I did see was that there was no way out. 

Today, there are many women that have children outside of wedlock in the U.S. There is a pill that can abort a baby or fetus. There are free clinics. There is child support and pro bono lawyers. There is section 8 housing for those with little income. There is WIC which helps mothers pay for food. There is free health services for pregnant mothers who can't afford it. 

I used to know a mother of several children who got a free used car from the state and they made sure it was able to run properly. She would get free rides when she needed them. This was all through the state. Maybe federal funds went toward some of that. I don't know.

Many pregnant mothers don't want to seek child support or don't know they have so many opportunities. It's sad they do not take advantage of what they are allowed by law. 

If you are from the U.S., you are paying for some of those free services with your taxes. Not sure how much more we can do to make the world a safer place for those who want to have sex and no consequences or few consequences. Fathers who do not pay child support may be sent to prison, though few are. Their wages are garnished. Their hunting licenses and other privileges may be taken away. 

Life isn't easy and making good choices just gets tougher. Still, there are more choices now than ever.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> Yes, you decide to cross the line. My point was, some people actually set out TO do it. Others continually choose to cross boundaries and rationalize, but never originally had the intent.


Your statement is contradictory, crossing the line is evidence of intent, no one can cross that line sans that intent.

If one has capability and intent they will do it, if one does not have the intent and or capability they won't do it.

One cannot undertake marital infidelity without intent or capability.

Every single person who has ever cheated on their marital partners have evidently had the capability and have clearly demonstrated their intent.

People cheat for a kaleidoscope of reasons, absent having access to one's sexual partner/s mind, one cannot guarantee they have not ever been cheated on.

While-ever us humans naturally find others desirable and choose to act upon those desires there will always be sexual infidelity.

Although there are plenty of people who never cheat on their sexual partners, it is a fools errand to believe one can affair proof a marriage.

As to emotional affairs, pfft... I couldn't care less what someone thinks, it's what they actually do that matters to me.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> I cheated on my husband. Therefore, according to your list above, those character flaws define who I am as a person. Well, I wholeheartedly disagree. I think they define my _actions_ during a certain part of my life.
> 
> It is easy to sit on high and say that you would never <insert bad deed here>. I have sinned in my life, but there are also many areas of my life which show integrity and impulse control and the ability to solve problems, etc. Some days are better than others. For example, on a lighter note, on certain days of the month I may choose to eat an extra sweet just because I feel like "I deserve it." There goes my impulse control!
> 
> ...


I think this particular abuse-sin is so far along the continuum of evil, that it does give us a very clear insight into the character of the person. It is way more cruel and traumatizing than most other offense.
So,say just like a crime like petty theft distinguishes the perpetrator from a murderer,IMO, folks that engage in long term or serial cheating are many standard deviations from people with a conscience.
No one can lie so repeatedly and over such an extended period of time,yet still function and sleep well etc unless he or she is dramatically different than a person with normal levels of empathy or integrity.
Can they change? Perhaps,but why risk it with them.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> Same.


22 years here. Did not cheat despite ample opportunity and plenty of dissatisfaction the my XW refused to even consider addressing despite my efforts to get her to go to counseling.
Guess the" last person to cheat" label was innaccurate for you.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Herschel said:


> What ever the case is, there has to be a "breaking point" a point in your other's life where doing what they are doing is somehow more valuable than the consequences. How did it get to that point is the question. People just don't fall in love with someone else or want to knock some boots just on a whim (well, some do, but are the minority we aren't talking about). People slowly move along a line that has the inverse slope to their marriage happiness. Once those lines intersect and they are beyond the point of feeling like it isn't worth it is when the affair starts.
> 
> It could be a slow burn with someone else, or it could be a one-night stand. Whatever the case, that person's lines have already intersected. They may not even realize it. Nobody may realize it.


I agree, though my EX WS has a track record of cheating. I pointed out the plot of the affair earlier but the the reason is something within her. A need to be validated etc. As with her ex-husband, I imagine, when things went 'off the boil' in our relationship she was easy pickings. So when the right POS appeared and the boxes ticked it was game over - for both of us.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I TOTALLY get what I did now. I've admitted a million times that in the moment, I was selfish and only thought of myself.
> 
> My intention was never to cheat. Never even a thought.
> 
> ...


What you described hardly constitutes a " moment". It took plce over an extended period of time that day,correct?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> What about if the marriage has already failed? It is just a skeleton - staying together for the kids, finances, fear, etc. THEN the infidelity happens. Still 100% the fault of the WS? The entire failing of the marriage??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Theoretically, the problems in a marriage could be split along any combination of percentages. But, it seems to me that if you have one spouse who has clearly demonstrated the character flaws needed to be a cheater, it is much more likely that those flaws bled into other areas of the marriage such that the cheater is most often the main problem causer.
I mean,can there be any real debate that cheating is one of the most abusive things one spouse can do to another? If this was a situation where one spouse mercilessly beat the crap out of the other,might we not suspect that such a person was the source of a lot of other problems in the relationship?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Maxo said:


> What you described hardly constitutes a " moment". It took plce over an extended period of time that day,correct?


It's a long story, but cliff notes. My OM was with my h all day golfing in an outing. I was with OMs (now) wife as her date to a wedding since om was golfing with my h.

After the wedding Om wife and I went to the bar that h and om were golfing in the outing for, waiting to go to the reception. Om came to the bar, my h went home. I begged h to come hang out with us but he wouldn't, and eventually stopped answering my texts. I hung out with om and his wife for probably 5-6 hours, then me, om and his wife went to the last hour of the reception. OM, his wife and I all went to a bar and then ended up at OMs house. Me, him and his wife. We were talking in the driveway and OMs wife decided to go to bed. (Which never happens, she's always the last one up). So om and I stayed out in the driveway talking. (They live one road over). 

Om and I started talking about my H and his wife. Things we were frustrated with. Things that we wish were different. She wanted to get married, he didn't. I was frustrated with my h that he wouldn't come out that night and ignored me often. We were talking as friends, just about life. Giving each other relationship advice. Om was assuring me how much my h loved me. Just pointed out that my h shows it in different ways.

Once the compliments started to when it finally ended.....that entire part was maybe 45 minutes to an hour. 

So yes, I had been with OM all day basically, but also with his wife. Everything up until the last hour or so was typical "friend" interaction. Until that point we were ALL good friends.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

For anyone and everyone still squabbling over the minute and wholly unimportant details w/ respect to "how an affair starts", here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/326337-gym-partner-going-too-far.html

There's one way.


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## OnAnIsland (Oct 3, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Therefore, it is not the person but their _actions_ which are flawed.


As Gus wrote previously, we are all getting caught up in emotion and miniutae due to the subject matter. This is not meant to be disrespectful or personal, but the above quote is typical of a mindset that I find pervasive in our culture. I know you were writing in a Christian context... along the lines of 'all are sinners, so ye without sin cast the first stone.' I get that. I'm not knocking your faith at all. 

I see the notion that 'I'm a good person, but those things I did were uncharacteristic...' everywhere. I see the notion justified/rationalized with faith, pop culture, selfishness or just plain ignorance of what words actually mean.

Your actions _are your character._ Nothing 'just happens.' If you're going to own your decisions and actions, then you can't also claim '_But they aren't who I am_.' Everything you do - good, bad and ambiguous, seen and unseen - is who you are and defines your character. You are correct that we are all flawed, or sinners, or all have had moments or even long stretches of our lives we regret or acknowledge as wrong. Those actions that were wrong may be wildly at odds with how our conduct is or seems 95% of the time. But they are part of our overall identity and character. 

To make the point about something other than infidelity for clarity:

'Yes, I took the money from your wallet. But that's not who I am. I've never done anything like that before. I don't know what came over me. It just happened. I wasn't thinking. I'd would never steal, that's not me. I just wasn't myself. I'm sorry and if you knew me you'd know that's not my character...'

I see and hear this stuff all the time. No one ever does something extraordinarily selfless or good or brave and then says 'that's not who I am.'


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Yeah it would have been a relief, somewhat, to hear my EX WS actually say "Sorry, I have always had poor boundaries and I like knocking off blokes occasionally. Even if they are married". Accept the responsibility you cheater. If you want to talk about the deep issues in our relationship that's fine - let's work it out, but cut the BS blame & excuses.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Horizon said:


> Yeah it would have been a relief, somewhat, to hear my EX WS actually say "Sorry, I have always had poor boundaries and I like knocking off blokes occasionally. Even if they are married". Accept the responsibility you cheater. If you want to talk about the deep issues in our relationship that's fine - let's work it out, but cut the BS blame & excuses.


You rarely see a cheater do this. Even on a forum like this,where,theoretically,you get the cream of the crop cheaters who ,at least take some responsibility,you see qualifying and some blame shifting.
I have always wondered why,unless it is to shift some blame,a cheater who is allegedly accepting full responsibility for cheating, many times includes some details regarding their pre affair dissatisfaction or some derogatory details about their spouse.
It seems to me that if they accept that their is no relation between these things and their decision to cheat,they might as well be including details about the Lakers game or WW II history or something equally off topic. 
But,invariably it seems most want us to know about their slovenly spouse or some abusive jerk they cheated on while maintaining that they take 100 percent of the responsibility for cheating.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Interestingly, my ex told me "does my horrible behavior for 6 months define me as as bad wife after 13.5 years of never doing this"???

Well hell yes, it does! But all the constant lying about where she was and how much she was spending for those 14 years also defines her--- as a total liar.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the previous post--- your actions most definitely define your character, not what your little mind tells you to justify all your bad deeds.

If you've killed someone, you're a murderer. Some things might be cumulative-- you tell one little lie, are you a liar? Well......
Cheating? No, if you've done it during a marriage, you're a cheater.
Accept it, you earned it. No excuses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Evinrude58 said:


> If you've killed someone, you're a murderer. Some things might be cumulative-- you tell one little lie, are you a liar? Well......
> Cheating? No, if you've done it during a marriage, you're a cheater.
> Accept it, you earned it. No excuses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do agree with this, but I also think that people can change and become a "former cheater who won't do it again". They will always have cheated, but they've grown to the point where they do truly regret what they did and will never do it again.

My entire marriage is pretty much defined by his cheating. There's 'before' and 'after'. Him cheating was 9/11 to our relationship. I am pretty sure he doesn't see it that way though. I don't think he really thinks about it. I don't think someone who has cheated and is truly remorseful CAN think about what they did much, or they'd end up just wallowing in regret and probably do something bad to themselves. Like someone who drives drunk and kills 3 kids - I don't think someone who truly regrets something like that can ever ever really 'get over' it. They _have_ to put it behind them and not think about it. As opposed to those who really don't give a crap and just go on to do it over and over, whether in the same or a different relationship.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

*Re: How an affair startse*



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> for many people in the real world, leaving is not as easy as it sounds.
> 
> I could leave, I have a job, savings etc. You can probably leave. For many people, especially women with children, leaving is a huge problem.
> ...


I know life is tough.

Character isn't tested when the right thing is the easy thing.

It's when the right thing is the difficult thing.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> I do hope you are never charged with the task of counseling a woman in an abusive situation.


Why limit it to women? Many studies show that women abuse men as frequently , if not more.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> I do hope you are never charged with the task of counseling a woman in an abusive situation.


I'm no counsellor.

But I've helped a rather large number of women and families leave abusive situations.

And that's what I think -- the response to abuse is to leave. Not to live with it. Not to find coping strategies. Not to mitigate it.

Leave.

The thing that really bums me out is that a distirbingly large portion of those women and families have gone right back into it, after successfully getting out of it.

I'm no saint, Zanne. There's a lot I don't know. But what I do know growing up with my own abusive father... You leave. Right now. The first time. You go.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

marduk said:


> I'm no counsellor.
> 
> But I've helped a rather large number of women and families leave abusive situations.
> 
> ...


I hope you have assisted men , as well. Despite the prevalence of female on male violence, there are almost no shelters and no federal funding for all the men physically abused by women.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> Why risk it with anybody? My affair began in year 24 of my marriage. Before that, nobody would have ever guessed that I was capable of such a betrayal. Not my finest moment. But it doesn't define who I am as a person.[/QUOTE
> 
> Because not everyone has a history of abuse, like cheating. Why marry an abuser?
> And, as far as defining you, it does , to some extent to some others, although not to yourself.
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Maxo said:


> I hope you have assisted men , as well. Despite the prevalence of female on male violence, there are almost no shelters and no federal funding for all the men physically abused by women.


Nope. Not sure how. It's so damn hidden.

I mean, I remember talking to a cop at a party after I split with wife #1. I told him about this situation where she was slapping me over and over. I pushed her away from me to get away from her (she had me cornered). She threatened to call the cops.

I asked this cop what would have happened if she did. He said I'd be spending the night in jail for sure, and likely facing an assault charge. 

And if I had called the cops on her?

Likely nothing. 

And the vast majority of guys wouldn't call the cops. 

The one thing I think guys have going for them -- maybe -- is that they might perceive it as easier to leave, or less actually threatened. I mean, I never worried I'd be dead like @Zanne probably did.

But you're right. I should focus more on men as victims of violence. As should society. The reason I focus on women was basically watching my mom go through it when I was a kid and I couldn't do anything.

Now I can do something.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> I do agree with this, but I also think that people can change and become a "former cheater who won't do it again". They will always have cheated, but they've grown to the point where they do truly regret what they did and will never do it again.
> 
> My entire marriage is pretty much defined by his cheating. There's 'before' and 'after'. Him cheating was 9/11 to our relationship. I am pretty sure he doesn't see it that way though. I don't think he really thinks about it. I don't think someone who has cheated and is truly remorseful CAN think about what they did much, or they'd end up just wallowing in regret and probably do something bad to themselves. Like someone who drives drunk and kills 3 kids - I don't think someone who truly regrets something like that can ever ever really 'get over' it. They _have_ to put it behind them and not think about it. As opposed to those who really don't give a crap and just go on to do it over and over, whether in the same or a different relationship.


I would agree, but I think once it's done. It becomes easier to do.
If one sees the error of their ways and never does something again the rest of their life.....
I'd a person repents and does it no more, they should forgive themselves and forget it, truth is though--- you can't say you weren't ever a cheater... And past behavior is the best predicted of future behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

marduk said:


> Nope. Not sure how. It's so damn hidden.
> 
> I mean, I remember talking to a cop at a party after I split with wife #1. I told him about this situation where she was slapping me over and over. I pushed her away from me to get away from her (she had me cornered). She threatened to call the cops.
> 
> ...


What you describe with the cop is very common, Marduk. It's still perceived that DV is a male on female problem. Just look at how acceptable it is in films and TV and commercials for a woman to haul off an slap a man, if she is upset with him. And, despite this display of violence, she will remain the protagonist in the story.
Over 1200 shelters for women. 1 in California accepts men. That's it.
But, this is a tangent. I never knew about all this stuff before investigating infidelity. It led me to learning about Personality disorders and Misandry, as well. All tied in.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Zanne said:


> My affair started after I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He refused to leave and stepped up his intimidation tactics. Even if I had the guts to leave (many women do not), I would not have been able to take my two teenage boys still at home or my dog to the women's shelter. I had no bank account (my husband controlled the money), no car, no job, and we lived on a farm in a rural area. I'm not saying the situation was impossible, but one thing you are not considering is the emotional state of mind for a person in such a predicament. It is from that place in my life that I said I didn't care.


Was it an emotional escape for you? Or was it seeking the other man's protection? 

I can totally get why you'd want either of those things. 

You were taking a tremendous risk though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> My affair started after I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He refused to leave and stepped up his intimidation tactics. Even if I had the guts to leave (many women do not), I would not have been able to take my two teenage boys still at home or my dog to the women's shelter. I had no bank account (my husband controlled the money), no car, no job, and we lived on a farm in a rural area. I'm not saying the situation was impossible, but one thing you are not considering is the emotional state of mind for a person in such a predicament. It is from that place in my life that I said I didn't care.


I have never understood this type of story. As has been pointed out before, if the H was so intimidating and threatening, why would anyone risk engaging in an activity likely to set off even more violence? I have heard this story before and always wondered what is the thought process: " My husband is an abusive, violent man. Maybe I will go out and have sex with another man. It might pacify my husband."
Then, I remember, cognitive dissonance from someone who has already demonstrated a huge capacity to lie in order to justify.
I would bet a fair number of kind, gentle, loving men have been demonized by cheating wives making all kinds of allegations about them.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Maxo said:


> I have never understood this type of story. As has been pointed out before, if the H was so intimidating and threatening, why would anyone risk engaging in an activity likely to set off even more violence? I have heard this story before and always wondered what is the thought process: " My husband is an abusive, violent man. Maybe I will go out and have sex with another man. It might pacify my husband."
> Then, I remember, cognitive dissonance from someone who has already demonstrated a huge capacity to lie in order to justify.
> I would bet a fair number of kind, gentle, loving men have been demonized by cheating wives making all kinds of allegations about them.


Mine did. 

She spun all kinds of stories about me being basically on the verge of being hospitalized for mental illness and totally reliant on her for everything. 

She was a psych major, and had me labelled with "passive dependant syndrome" and "chronic depression" and all kinds of things. 

And somehow after she left, I kept my job, had lots of friends, my own place, taught martial arts, dated...

And then the truth all started to come out. 

I'm not saying this is what @Zanne is doing though. I'm saying I had it happen to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Zanne said:


> My affair started after I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He refused to leave and stepped up his intimidation tactics. Even if I had the guts to leave (many women do not), I would not have been able to take my two teenage boys still at home or my dog to the women's shelter. I had no bank account (my husband controlled the money), no car, no job, and we lived on a farm in a rural area. I'm not saying the situation was impossible, but one thing you are not considering is the emotional state of mind for a person in such a predicament. It is from that place in my life that I said I didn't care.


See, this points out a big problem in the DV industry. Your boys could not come. Why is that. Does having a Y chromosome shield them from violence. If they were girls, could they have come? I do not understand that industry's obliviousness to the plight of abused males when many reliable, government studies show that men are equally victimized.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

marduk said:


> Mine did.
> 
> She spun all kinds of stories about me being basically on the verge of being hospitalized for mental illness and totally reliant on her for everything.
> 
> ...


It is a time honored tradition, demonizing the betrayed. Men do it about their betrayed wives, as well.
But, in the areas of abusiveness or emotional neglect, I think women cheaters have a leg up in terms of society's willingness to believe and accept their allegations because of all the anti male propaganda out there. You see it everywhere, once you become sensitized to it.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Maxo said:
> 
> 
> > My point is, how will you ever know for sure? It's a crap shoot and you know it. You can stay away from certain types of women - let's say the shallow ones who like to party, but how do you know what someone is truly capable of until you've seen them hit bottom?
> ...


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Maxo said:


> It is a time honored tradition, demonizing the betrayed. Men do it about their betrayed wives, as well.
> But, in the areas of abusiveness or emotional neglect, I think women cheaters have a leg up in terms of society's willingness to believe and accept their allegations because of all the anti male propaganda out there. You see it everywhere, once you become sensitized to it.


I'm sure I have demonized my ex. She couldn't have been all bad, I married her and stayed with her as long as I did.

She was very beautiful, very intelligent. Very charming. I'm sure she still is.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Maxo said:


> I have never understood this type of story. As has been pointed out before, if the H was so intimidating and threatening, why would anyone risk engaging in an activity likely to set off even more violence? I have heard this story before and always wondered what is the thought process: " My husband is an abusive, violent man. Maybe I will go out and have sex with another man. It might pacify my husband."
> Then, I remember, cognitive dissonance from someone who has already demonstrated a huge capacity to lie in order to justify.
> I would bet a fair number of kind, gentle, loving men have been demonized by cheating wives making all kinds of allegations about them.


I admit I have a lot of trouble believing this as well. My x tried to make me the villain as she did with her x. Problem was when I pointed out to her that if I was such a scary monster why would she do something so outlandish and belittling to me as to screw the guy in our bed if she was afraid. Makes no sense. You don't provoke someone you are afraid of by pushing them as deep and hard as you can. Was pretty much in that moment she admitted she made the whole thing up. Never underestimate the power of rewriting history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> > But how will you KNOW for sure??? Everyone in my family, church, circle of friends, etc., _knows_ how things went down in my marriage, but my AP could theoretically go on to date other people as your average divorced dad. There are no guarantees in life. I think the best you can do is work on yourself so you presumably will choose a likewise partner. "Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."
> ...


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> > But if you don't take a chance on love and you are left with only your bitterness from the past, it's such a sad existence. I'm not saying a person should always need someone in their life. Being alone is okay too - if you're truly okay.
> ...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> > You do take a chance on love. I have had 3 GF since my divorce but none of them were previous cheaters. Difference between taking calculated risks and just throwing all caution to the wind. I advise everyone not to engage with people of low character in their pasts. Criminals, abusers, and cheaters for example. Eliminate those and your risk dimminishes of being victimized. Never completely prevented but diminished is better than taking any risk on a known risk
> ...


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Zanne said:
> 
> 
> > This isn't a personal attack on you but I need to use you as an example to illustrate a point. The fact is they tell you. I have dated for 5 years now and I can tell you that when it comes to cheaters they all have a sorry story as you have shared here.
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wolf1974 said:
> 
> 
> > Agree there is no 100% but you can try to stack the odds a bit mor ein your favor..."cheaters need not apply"
> ...


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> Don't kid yourselves about your odds. People cheat for all kinds of reasons. Number one of which is that they wanted to and thought they could get away with it.
> 
> Everything else is a distant second to that.


Bingo! People cheat because its fun and it feels good - any cheater who tells you they weren't having fun during their affair is a liar...its when they get caught and have to pay the consequences that the tears and apologies and all the bullsh!t starts...the fvcking is fun - the getting caught not so much...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Bingo! People cheat because its fun and it feels good - any cheater who tells you they weren't having fun during their affair is a liar...its when they get caught and have to pay the consequences that the tears and apologies and all the bullsh!t starts...the fvcking is fun - the getting caught not so much...


If someone were to tell me "I'm thinking of cheating" and they don't have anyone particular in mind, I'd listen carefully to their reasons. Especially if it was because they were unfulfilled in their marriage.

But I'm very sceptical when people give their reasons... After the affair starts.

Because it's more than likely retroactive. People justify things all the time.

It's like when my wife told me over and over again that my dad belly had nothing to do with why we weren't having much sex. She was as attracted to me as she always was. It was the dishes, it was the kids, it was the house.

So I did the dishes more. Nothing. I took care of the kids more, and arranged time for us without them. Nothing. I agreed to having a housekeeper. Nothing.

I got in shape. Wham! More sex.

She still swears it has nothing to do with me being in better shape. Right.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

marduk said:


> It's like when my wife told me over and over again that my dad belly had nothing to do with why we weren't having much sex. She was as attracted to me as she always was. It was the dishes, it was the kids, it was the house.
> 
> So I did the dishes more. Nothing. I took care of the kids more, and arranged time for us without them. Nothing. I agreed to having a housekeeper. Nothing.
> 
> ...


Does she keep herself in shape?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Does she keep herself in shape?


Very much so.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> But how will you KNOW for sure???


You can't.

And that's kind of the point.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Zanne said:


> My affair started after I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He refused to leave and stepped up his intimidation tactics. Even if I had the guts to leave (many women do not), I would not have been able to take my two teenage boys still at home or my dog to the women's shelter. I had no bank account (my husband controlled the money), no car, no job, and we lived on a farm in a rural area. I'm not saying the situation was impossible, but one thing you are not considering is the emotional state of mind for a person in such a predicament. It is from that place in my life that I said I didn't care.


Before you got the divorce? Well, seems to me you must have been in an EA prior. 

Abuse makes things tough. You are correct in saying I did not take physically abusive marriages directly into account. I didn't even address the in my post to richardsharpe.

I think I even wrote that I didn't read all of his post, so there was no confusion. 

Here are some sites with information for abused women.

How to Get Out of an Abusive Relationship (with Pictures)

Abusive Marriage #1

How to help a friend who is being abused | womenshealth.gov

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080115093316AAUD7S9

Planning a safe escape from an abusive marriage - Helene L Taylor

Domestic Abuse Help Guide Home - Free Yourself from Domestic Abuse | LeavingAbuse.com

Domestic Violence | For Your Marriage


Those are just a few Zanne. I'm not saying you could have found them or knew to look for them. I'm just saying, as I did in my post, there are many kinds of help available.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

marduk said:


> If someone were to tell me "I'm thinking of cheating" and they don't have anyone particular in mind, I'd listen carefully to their reasons. Especially if it was because they were unfulfilled in their marriage.
> 
> But I'm very sceptical when people give their reasons... After the affair starts.
> 
> ...


There was a thread here not long ago about telling the truth. Many said it was okay and maybe even good to do something like what your wife did. 

Thing is, she could have ruined your marriage over not telling you what she was feeling. The truth, I mean. Yeah, it might hurt your feelings, but you could have gotten frustrated and she could have felt like she wasn't getting her needs met. She, you or both could have ended up in an EA or worse. All because she wanted to save your feelings. 

My guess is, you'd rather she just told you. I don't mean to belittle you or make you feel worthless, but just to tell you she loves you and would love you more if you did some situps or something. I know I wanted that truthfulness in my second marriage and didn't get it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> There was a thread here not long ago about telling the truth. Many said it was okay and maybe even good to do something like what your wife did.
> 
> Thing is, she could have ruined your marriage over not telling you what she was feeling. The truth, I mean. Yeah, it might hurt your feelings, but you could have gotten frustrated and she could have felt like she wasn't getting her needs met. She, you or both could have ended up in an EA or worse. All because she wanted to save your feelings.
> 
> My guess is, you'd rather she just told you. I don't mean to belittle you or make you feel worthless, but just to tell you she loves you and would love you more if you did some situps or something. I know I wanted that truthfulness in my second marriage and didn't get it.


There are three options that I see. 

She didn't tell me because she didn't want to hurt me. 

She didn't tell me because she didn't want to admit to herself that she'd be that shallow. 

She didn't realize that she wasn't attracted to me or why. 

I think with many people it could be the latter, or a mixture of the three.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Zanne said:


> Exactly.


Love is always a gamble.

But why put your chips on a broken horse?

That's just stupid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I do agree with this, but I also think that people can change and become a "former cheater who won't do it again". They will always have cheated, but they've grown to the point where they do truly regret what they did and will never do it again.
> 
> My entire marriage is pretty much defined by his cheating. There's 'before' and 'after'. Him cheating was 9/11 to our relationship. I am pretty sure he doesn't see it that way though. I don't think he really thinks about it. I don't think someone who has cheated and is truly remorseful CAN think about what they did much, or they'd end up just wallowing in regret and probably do something bad to themselves. Like someone who drives drunk and kills 3 kids - I don't think someone who truly regrets something like that can ever ever really 'get over' it. They _have_ to put it behind them and not think about it. As opposed to those who really don't give a crap and just go on to do it over and over, whether in the same or a different relationship.


I tend to agree with the second paragraph.

Okay, I want to give my opinions of the first one now.

I do not think a "reformed" cheater is safe. I don't mean to say your husband or any other's spouse will absolutely cheat again. What I think is, there is a higher likelihood they will than someone who has never cheated, even after they have "reformed". 

I think it's like affair proofing a marriage. You really can't. All you can do is reduce the risks to as low as possible. That may be more than good enough when love is in the marriage. Yes, I mean the mutual emotions, respect, work, admiration, sexual attraction, and all the other things which make up the definition of love. And, no one is perfect, so if both spouses do the work they need to know themselves and be better partners, it just may be a better relationship/marriage than they could have with anyone else, even after infidelity. Could be, I said. Nothing is guaranteed in life.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

marduk said:


> There are three options that I see.
> 
> She didn't tell me because she didn't want to hurt me.
> 
> ...


Yeah, and not my point. 

Her reason doesn't matter as much as the effects of lying. It could have been the beginning of the end for your marriage. I get that you aren't that easily shaken, but over time things morph into infidelity for less reason than that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, and not my point.
> 
> Her reason doesn't matter as much as the effects of lying. It could have been the beginning of the end for your marriage. I get that you aren't that easily shaken, but over time things morph into infidelity for less reason than that.


Oh, yes of course. Thought that was self-evident.

I sure would have rather just heard "you've gained some weight and I'm just not as into sex with you right now" than try to go through months of reverse engineering the situation, frustrating us both.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think we are getting off topic here, which is namely "How an affair starts."

I think both Disloyal and Loyal spouses alike can agree that most affairs do not start with the intention to commit adultery. Some do, but I mean statistically, the larger portion of affairs are not conscious, purposeful, intentional infidelity. 

I also think both Disloyal and Loyal spouses alike can agree that most affairs start small. That is to say, looking back with hindsight, there was one small choice that was the beginning of "going off the rails." In other words, it's not usually a huge, horrific complete personality reversal where all-of-a-sudden the evil, psychopathic personality emerges from the Church Lady. LOL It's more like a very tiny line crossed..then another...then another...then another and pretty soon the line is miles behind.

Neither of those two concepts has anything to do with the status of the marriage beforehand, because I think we also generally agree that responsibility for the marriage beforehand is shared by both, bht the responsibility for infidelity is 100% squarely on the shoulders of the Disloyal only. 

Sooo...since I think we have that much common ground at least, I'd like to return to "How an affair starts"...and I'll share what I think it was that was the start of my affair. When the devastating things occurred in my marriage, that was not yet an affair. When we mourned in entirely different ways, that was not yet an affair. When I asked for comfort and was turned away, that was not yet an affair. When I went to play a game that I enjoy during the time he was doing the things he enjoys, that was not yet an affair...but it was opening a door. When I played and tried to involve him and he didn't care, that was not yet an affair. 

When I began to play AND EXCLUDE HIM, I believe that is when it became cheating (even though I didn't have an AP at that point yet). To revisit "cheating" vs. "affair"--at that point I was cheating because I was keeping parts of me hidden, keeping secrets, and excluding my spouse; it was not an affair because there was no AP. 

When I played to get the approval of people other than my spouse (male and female) that was cheating. When I played specifically to get the approval of certain men, it was cheating. When I hid conversations from my Dear Hubby it was a full blown affair. 

So that's how it began for me. Nope, it's not "wrong" to have my own hobby or interests--Yep, it is wrong to exclude my spouse from ANYTHING in my life. And that was the very first little line I crossed.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

GusPolinski said:


> Love is always a gamble.
> 
> But why put your chips on a broken horse?
> 
> ...


It's like what my wife told her friend when she started texting her ex-bf while married:

"You may think you'll never cross the line, and trust yourself. But why even put yourself in the position of having to decide that after you're tempted?"

It's like me going to Vegas on a boy's trip and avoiding strip clubs. Why would I go, get myself all wound up, and force myself to go back my room alone when I know I could go back with someone?

Why not just avoid the whole problem as much as possible to begin with?

I think the same logic applies to someone who has cheated in the past. Sure, they could know and 'get' the destruction they caused. But they also know how to cheat, and how they got caught. And likely are just fine putting themselves in that position 'because they've learned their lesson.' 

Lots of people here may be the exception to that rule. But I think they are in fact the exception.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I think we are getting off topic here...


Welcome to TAM!!!

:grin2:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@GusPolinski - have I ever mentioned what a treasure you are to TAM? Of course, I realize that the TAM regulars will now go back and forth for ten or more pages disagreeing on ... something.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> When I began to play AND EXCLUDE HIM, I believe that is when it became cheating (even though I didn't have an AP at that point yet). To revisit "cheating" vs. "affair"--at that point I was cheating because I was keeping parts of me hidden, keeping secrets, and excluding my spouse; it was not an affair because there was no AP.
> 
> When I played to get the approval of people other than my spouse (male and female) that was cheating. When I played specifically to get the approval of certain men, it was cheating. When I hid conversations from my Dear Hubby it was a full blown affair.
> 
> So that's how it began for me. Nope, it's not "wrong" to have my own hobby or interests--Yep, it is wrong to exclude my spouse from ANYTHING in my life. And that was the very first little line I crossed.


So, your husband knew you were playing to get the approval of other men? You told him what you were doing and what you said? Getting approval is an emotional level that when given freely, doesn't seem like a problem. For me, it is when one is seeking approval from someone other than a spouse. I know it happens all the time. It seems like a moot point to me. However, you brought it up.

If not, by your definition, that's an affair because, "When I hid conversations from my Dear Hubby it was a full blown affair."

Let me also add that I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with my previous post. Let me clarify.

I do believe we all have the capacity to cheat, have an affair, be unfaithful, have an EA and PA, and so on, and so forth, no matter who we are. Hope that shows you I do not think myself or anyone who believes they have never cheated in any manner are perfect or better than anyone.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> @GusPolinski - have I ever mentioned what a treasure you are to TAM? Of course, I realize that the TAM regulars will now go back and forth for ten or more pages disagreeing on ... something.


Ha!

Actually, I don't believe so, but hey... thanks for the kind words.

Oh, and also?

Right back at you.

:smthumbup:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

@Evinrude58 has the know how and intestinal fortitude to shut this thread down whenever he decides it's enough.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I think we are getting off topic here, which is namely "How an affair starts."
> 
> I think both Disloyal and Loyal spouses alike can agree that most affairs do not start with the intention to commit adultery. Some do, but I mean statistically, the larger portion of affairs are not conscious, purposeful, intentional infidelity.


That's all I have said from the get-go of this thread, and much longer than that, only to have a couple of newbies call me naive for what I know to be absolutely true. 

Oh well, like Gus said, welcome to TAM.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> So, your husband knew you were playing to get the approval of other men? You told him what you were doing and what you said? Getting approval is an emotional level that when given freely, doesn't seem like a problem. For me, it is when one is seeking approval from someone other than a spouse. I know it happens all the time. It seems like a moot point to me. However, you brought it up.
> 
> If not, by your definition, that's an affair because, "When I hid conversations from my Dear Hubby it was a full blown affair."


I don't think my Dear Hubby knew I was looking for approval from anyone, and @2ntnuf I have to be honest--I don't think I did a very good job of explaining myself there. I think there is a difference between 'looking for approval' such as a good work from your boss at work (either gender) for a job well done and well deserved...and 'looking for approval' from an opposite sex, specific person that's the beginning of that compliment/ego-stroke thing. I was trying to show the gradual progression of going from playing for my own interest, then playing for "people to like me" and get a bit of a thrill from "Wow, good heals!" to playing for one particular person who showed some interest and said compliments. Make sense? 

I told him I was playing--he saw me playing--and I started trying to talk to him about the dungeon, the boss strategy or game mechanics (and FYI he REALLY likes that kind of thing) but what I didn't get was that he was mourning and sort of depressed, so he didn't really find what I was saying interesting. It was like it rolled off his back and he couldn't care less. So I stopped telling him. Then I started getting the positives from the team and I liked that and it felt like I was skilled. I did not tell him that, but not necessarily because I was hiding it--more like I didn't think he cared at all. Then I started getting positives from the OM, and that felt great...and I definitely didn't tell him about that because by then I was hiding it. 



> Let me also add that I'm sorry I hurt your feelings with my previous post. Let me clarify.
> 
> I do believe we all have the capacity to cheat, have an affair, be unfaithful, have an EA and PA, and so on, and so forth, no matter who we are. Hope that shows you I do not think myself or anyone who believes they have never cheated in any manner are perfect or better than anyone.


 @2ntnuf, I've been around TAM for YEARS--shoot I think I'll aim at a decade! LOL If I was so thin-skinned as to be hurt by everything that was written about disloyals, I would have run away long ago. For me, I spent my whole life being a loyal, devoted kind of person, and cheating was way out of character for me. After Dear Hubby and I spent to time to repair and rebuild and find out what happened and why, I learned about myself and where my weaknesses lie, and thus to me it seems as if I returned to my true character. 

Anyway, I get it. That's my opinion and not everyone is going to agree with me, and that's fine with me! No harm, no foul. 0


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I do not think a "reformed" cheater is safe. I don't mean to say your husband or any other's spouse will absolutely cheat again. What I think is, there is a higher likelihood they will than someone who has never cheated, even after they have "reformed".


Hmm, I can see that, and maybe I am deluding myself, but I think there is the possibility that some of those who have cheated really don't want to cause that amount of hurt to their spouse again, and are actually less likely to cheat than the general population. Kinda like, having gotten puking drunk, some people never want to drink again. Most do, but some don't.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> @Evinrude58 has the know how and intestinal fortitude to shut this thread down whenever he decides it's enough.


I'm having flashbacks of Gorilla Monsoon's WWF ringside commentary...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> I don't think my Dear Hubby knew I was looking for approval from anyone, and @2ntnuf I have to be honest--I don't think I did a very good job of explaining myself there. I think there is a difference between 'looking for approval' such as a good work from your boss at work (either gender) for a job well done and well deserved...and 'looking for approval' from an opposite sex, specific person that's the beginning of that compliment/ego-stroke thing. I was trying to show the gradual progression of going from playing for my own interest, then playing for "people to like me" and get a bit of a thrill from "Wow, good heals!" to playing for one particular person who showed some interest and said compliments. Make sense?


I'm catching what you're pitching. 



> I told him I was playing--he saw me playing--and I started trying to talk to him about the dungeon, the boss strategy or game mechanics (and FYI he REALLY likes that kind of thing) but what I didn't get was that he was mourning and sort of depressed, so he didn't really find what I was saying interesting. It was like it rolled off his back and he couldn't care less. So I stopped telling him. Then I started getting the positives from the team and I liked that and it felt like I was skilled. I did not tell him that, but not necessarily because I was hiding it--more like I didn't think he cared at all. Then I started getting positives from the OM, and that felt great...and I definitely didn't tell him about that because by then I was hiding it./


This is just confirmation.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Hmm, I can see that, and maybe I am deluding myself, but I think there is the possibility that some of those who have cheated really don't want to cause that amount of hurt to their spouse again, and are actually less likely to cheat than the general population. Kinda like, having gotten puking drunk, some people never want to drink again. Most do, but some don't.


I don't think you are deluding yourself. Only time can tell you that. I doubt you are.

Sure, there are those who might never cheat again because of the pain they suffered from consequences. It's even more likely those who are in that category won't be with their BS ever again. 

I think the consequences would have to be that traumatic, because they would have to deeply suppress their normal responses to sexual desire, or whatever their reason was for the affair.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> Hmm, I can see that, and maybe I am deluding myself, but I think there is the possibility that some of those who have cheated really don't want to cause that amount of hurt to their spouse again, and are actually less likely to cheat than the general population. Kinda like, having gotten puking drunk, some people never want to drink again. Most do, but some don't.


Sure.

But I don't marry a reformed alcoholic without wondering if they might struggle with it again.

And if I've already dealt with an alcoholic once, I probably don't want to.

So I wouldn't marry an alcoholic either.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I'm having flashbacks of Gorilla Monsoon's WWF ringside commentary...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can't remember what he looked like. Don't remember that commentary. I probably didn't see it, or maybe I suppressed the memories. 

When I was a little kid, like up to about five years old, I liked it. I watched with my oldest brother on Saturday afternoon, or was that the morning? I don't think the WWF was around in 1967? He left the house when I was around five.

I didn't watch it again that I can remember, until I had to watch it when I was dating my first wife, who was grounded quite a bit, but sometimes allowed to see me. Her family really liked it. Oddly enough, I didn't care that their boundaries were poor at that age. I eventually enjoyed some of the exhibition. I was in my late teens. I was just horny and hoping, drooling, and all the other normal things a teen boy does.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

@2ntnuf, it was your use of the word "intestinal fortitude" that triggered it. GM used that phrase a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Hope1964 said:


> Hmm, I can see that, and maybe I am deluding myself, but I think there is the possibility that some of those who have cheated really don't want to cause that amount of hurt to their spouse again, and are actually less likely to cheat than the general population. Kinda like, having gotten puking drunk, some people never want to drink again. Most do, but some don't.


Honestly it comes down to taking a chance on someone to whom you have no attachment or vested interest.

Most folks -- not counting the naive or masochistic among us -- wouldn't do that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> @2ntnuf, it was your use of the word "intestinal fortitude" that triggered it. GM used that phrase a lot.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought it might have been some phrase. I just don't remember him saying it. Your joke was lost on me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Honestly it comes down to taking a chance on someone to whom you have no attachment or vested interest.
> 
> Most folks -- not counting the naive or masochistic among us -- wouldn't do that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whether a reformed cheater will cheat again or not? Your answer doesn't make sense. It doesn't address the question.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> Before you got the divorce? Well, seems to me you must have been in an EA prior.
> 
> Abuse makes things tough. You are correct in saying I did not take physically abusive marriages directly into account. I didn't even address the in my post to richardsharpe.
> 
> ...


Lots of help for women. Almost zero for men who are being abused. What a messed up society. Men. Are disposable.


----------



## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

3putt said:


> That's all I have said from the get-go of this thread, and much longer than that, only to have a couple of newbies call me naive for what I know to be absolutely true.
> 
> Oh well, like Gus said, welcome to TAM.


Yeah, i disagree. Sorry I called you naive,although I do not know if I could really be considered a "newbie",having been researching and discussing this for almost a decade.
Ithink I was reacting to the arrogance of your pronouncement that I was " dead wrong"


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Yeah, i disagree. Sorry I called you naive,although I do not know if I could really be considered a "newbie",having been researching and discussing this for almost a decade.
> Ithink I was reacting to the arrogance of your pronouncement that I was " dead wrong"


There was nothing arrogant about it. You were dead wrong. But in all fairness, I've been dead wrong a lot more than that.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

3putt said:


> There was nothing arrogant about it. You were dead wrong. But in all fairness, I've been dead wrong a lot more than that.


Guess we will have to agree that you have a monopoly on the truth. Please keep me informed when I am dead wrong,so I can cow tow to your superior knowledge.
Sheesh,had I only known I would not have bothered with all that reading. Could have just relied on your infallibility. Sort of like the Pope,eh?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Guess we will have to agree that you have a monopoly on the truth. Please keep me informed when I am dead wrong,so I can cow tow to your superior knowledge.
> Sheesh,had I only known I would not have bothered with all that reading. Could have just relied on your infallibility. Sort of like the Pope,eh?


I would interested in knowing just what you've read to lead you to the conclusion that all affairs are started intentionally. You said you've read 15 books, right? Which ones?

And, LOL, you have the gall to call me arrogant. Do you ever actually read what you write?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

3putt said:


> I would interested in knowing just what you've read to lead you to the conclusion that all affairs are started intentionally. You said you've read 15 books, right? Which ones?
> 
> And, LOL, you have the gall to call me arrogant. Do you ever actually read what you write?


Actually, I am surprised you are capable of reading. I have plenty of gall when dealing with pedantic people.
Let' disengage with the agreement that each of us feels the other is a horse's ass.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Actually, I am surprised you are capable of reading. I have plenty of gall when dealing with pedantic people.
> Let' disengage with the agreement that each of us feels the other is a horse's ass.


What books?

15 right?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

2ntnuf said:


> Whether a reformed cheater will cheat again or not? Your answer doesn't make sense. It doesn't address the question.


It addresses what @Hope1964 was saying.

Even though there is at least a moderate risk that her FWH will cheat again, it's worth it to her to reconcile given her attachment to him and her vested interest in him.

But, should she wind up single again, would she put the same level of faith into another guy, knowing that he'd also cheated on his former wife?

Probably not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

3putt said:


> What books?
> 
> 15 right?


If I list them,how about you agree to stop acting like such an arrogant ass?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Maxo said:


> If I list them,how about you agree to stop acting like such an arrogant ass?


Just forget it. I can see where this is headed and no good will come from it.

But, my God, you are the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black.

LOL


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Ok. But, I was going to throw in a free Dale Carnegie course for you if I fell a couple of books short.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> It addresses what @Hope1964 was saying.
> 
> Even though there is at least a moderate risk that her FWH will cheat again, it's worth it to her to reconcile given her attachment to him and her vested interest in him.
> 
> ...


I think we may agree as I wrote in bold in this post of mine:



2ntnuf said:


> I tend to agree with the second paragraph.
> 
> Okay, I want to give my opinions of the first one now.
> 
> ...


I think I got confused because your post was in reply to this post below, which you quoted in your response.




Hope1964 said:


> Hmm, I can see that, and maybe I am deluding myself, but I think there is the possibility that some of those who have cheated really don't want to cause that amount of hurt to their spouse again, and are actually less likely to cheat than the general population. Kinda like, having gotten puking drunk, some people never want to drink again. Most do, but some don't.


And, I still don't think you are deluding yourself, Hope. I think you have a better chance than most of making it long term. Still, I think you would agree that everyone should be vigilant about their own responsibilities in the marriage and aware as possible of red flags.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

marduk said:


> Nope. Not sure how. It's so damn hidden.
> 
> I mean, I remember talking to a cop at a party after I split with wife #1. I told him about this situation where she was slapping me over and over. I pushed her away from me to get away from her (she had me cornered). She threatened to call the cops.
> 
> ...


So true, I've never called the cops on my wife but I have threatened many times.

A friend of mine called the cops on his wife and they put him in jail. Apparently he gave her rug burns when he restrained her to keep her from beating on him. :surprise:

Oh, I don't think it's easier for guys to leave. I've been trying for over twenty years now and I still haven't done it. :|


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> There was a thread here not long ago about telling the truth. Many said it was okay and maybe even good to do something like what your wife did.
> 
> Thing is, she could have ruined your marriage over not telling you what she was feeling. The truth, I mean. Yeah, it might hurt your feelings, but you could have gotten frustrated and she could have felt like she wasn't getting her needs met. She, you or both could have ended up in an EA or worse. All because she wanted to save your feelings.
> 
> My guess is, you'd rather she just told you. I don't mean to belittle you or make you feel worthless, but just to tell you she loves you and would love you more if you did some situps or something. I know I wanted that truthfulness in my second marriage and didn't get it.


Nah, I think it's really the alpha male crap, there really is something to it. Women appear to be hardwired to that. I was a beta husband and the sex dried up, I was constantly being rejected and it sucked bad. I read up on the alpha male stuff, and although I don't buy into all of it, some of it seems to be true. 

I know that's how it seems to have happened with my wife these past few months. I stopped begging for sex and started working out, a few people noticed which made her take notice, then I didn't even have to ask for sex anymore, I was even getting it up to three times a day. :grin2:

Back on topic:


I think the bottom line is there are people who would cheat and people who wouldn't cheat. I have been in the position to keep something going but always chose not to feed it, I still wanted my wife. Even now that I'm leaving her, I still wouldn't think of cheating on her, cheating sucks balls! I'll divorce so that doesn't happen.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

I forgot to add to the last post. I also noticed when it was time for dinner, she would always want me to choose and I would always leave it up to her. That was being beta, now I tell her where I want to go and she eats it right up. I changed a lot of my behavior and tried to be more alpha in subtle ways but not being too much of a jerk. 

When I want sex now, I don't ask for it, I tell her when and where and to be ready. It has been working so far. 

I just had issues with the rug sweeping mostly, never really found anything solid. 

She seems to have changed for the better, it's that stupid gut feeling that won't go away. It has lessened but it gets triggered and sets me back because I never got stuff resolved.

I will say, if I was the cheating type, I could have easily had an affair during this time, I was very vulnerable and made the mistake of speaking to a female client and things could have progressed but I didn't let it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

I just stumbled onto this thread and I haven't read through it but it seems to be about something that is really troubling me. My wife's timeline doesn't make sense unless she went right into a PA that lasted for 3 months. In other words, it wasn't a ONS it was a full on affair. My question is this:

How likely is it that a woman would jump right into a PA and by-pass the EA? Also, generally speaking, how long does the EA last before the affair partners get to the PA?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is different and every situation. Focus less on generalities, and focus more on the evidence that you see in front of you. If it doesn't make sense, peel the onion back until you get to the layers that do.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

> It is different and every situation. Focus less on generalities, and focus more on the evidence that you see in front of you. If it doesn't make sense, peel the onion back until you get to the layers that do.


I don't have much onion to work with. I have their time-stamped texts and a few emails between her and the wife of her POSOM. Of course, according to my wife, the affair started on the date of the earliest text I have and ended on the date of the latest text I have.

What are the odds of that?

I'm guessing I'll never know the truth of it. In a way, she can't win. Even if she took and passed a polygraph on the veracity of her time-line, I probably still wouldn't believe her.

I read articles on stages of an affair and ONS aside, they always seem to involve some preliminaries which get lumped under EA. If she is to be believed, she basically just jumped right into bed with this guy.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

americansteve said:


> I don't have much onion to work with. I have their time-stamped texts and a few emails between her and the wife of her POSOM. Of course, according to my wife, the affair started on the date of the earliest text I have and ended on the date of the latest text I have.
> 
> What are the odds of that?
> 
> ...


Yes and no. 

Many affairs are one night stands during business travel with someone who was a complete stranger prior to that incident.

You know, hit the hotel bar, have a few drinks, someone catches your eye... It's on from there.

Was your wife's a workplace affair?

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## higgsb (Apr 4, 2016)

> Was your wife's a workplace affair?


No, they met at the gym we both went to which means this fcking guy saw me, probably sizing me up, and I was clueless to the whole deal.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I remember your story now. Teacher, Costa Rica, Etc. I think you both have some growing up to do.

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## always_hopefull (Aug 11, 2011)

Zanne said:


> Why risk it with anybody? My affair began in year 24 of my marriage. Before that, nobody would have ever guessed that I was capable of such a betrayal. Not my finest moment. But it doesn't define who I am as a person.


I thought you had a previous affair to this one years ago? If I'm wrong I apologize.


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