# Does anyone else experience having difficulty getting over your spouse's past, even after years of being married? Or, is it just me?



## Two the Point (Aug 10, 2020)

My wife and I have been married for more than 30 years. When we first met, we were attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, one of which was that we both shared a common value: remaining virgins until we were married.

Before I go any further, I respectfully ask that you not hijack this thread to interject your thoughts and opinions regarding why we valued virginity, whether it's normal or abnormal, whether it's good or bad, or right or wrong. Above all, please don't tell me "the past is past; just let it go." That's not the point of this thread - I'm not seeking advice on how to get over it.

Eleven years into our marriage, my wife received a telephone call out of the blue, from a guy she dated for 7 years and hadn't heard from in 15 years. (For more detailed information on this, please see my post from 8/20/2020). He wanted to find out whether she would be attending their upcoming class reunion that was to take place a few days later.

After speaking with her former boyfriend for 45 minutes, my jealousy got the best of me and I began to ask her questions about her past relationship with him. Much to my dismay, she informed me that she had indeed had a sexual relationship with him, even though she told me while we were going out that she was a virgin. It later came out that she had also had sexual relations with two other guys prior to meeting me.

Having lived under the belief that she and I were each other's "only ones," I was absolutely shocked and deeply disappointed to find out after 11 years of marriage that such was not the case.

From that point, which was decades ago, through the present, and more than 30 years into our marriage, I am affected by my inability to get over my wife's past. After having gone through this for decades, I just found out that it is something called retroactive jealousy, which has ties to obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). To find out more about retroactive jealousy, research it online and watch YouTube videos which feature stories from individuals who experience it. 

My question is this: Do any of you suffer from retroactive jealousy? If so, I would like you to share what it is like for you. In other words, what are your symptoms, how often does it affect you, etc.? Also, are you optimistic that it will go away, or do you see it as a permanent condition?

Lastly, if you can't seem to get over your spouse's past, has it affected your relationship with your spouse? If so, how?


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I don't think this is JUST about retroactive jealousy -- this is about your wife flat-out LYING to you. You feel betrayed a bit I am thinking.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that mot people never ask about each other's past and mostly go by whatever the other chooses to disclose. 

Your situation is different because it sounds like the two of you discussed this before you married. It was a specific issue that was important to you. She lied and was wrong to not be honest with you before you two married. 

Are you more upset about her lying or about her having sex with others before you started dating and married her?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's not retroactive jealousy that's the problem. It's that she HUGELY lied to you that's the problem.


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## Uriel (Oct 31, 2018)

Why yes I have and it just about killed me, or was killing me. It's like combat...they tell you not to look back when your running. Why...your percentage increases to catch a bullet. You'll figure out a way to get past it, or take it to your grave.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

Please keep everything in ONE thread if you want better advice.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I would be upset. how much I would bring that resentment into the current relationship, I don't know. I do accept that if you want to stay with someone, then you have accept what they have done and concentrate on the present and future, which is what you can reasonably influence.

I'll agree with you, this really stinks. The female equivalent would be dating a guy exclusively (you two have agree to it) who insisted on splitting everything 50/50 because that's what he does. Only to find out he acted like a sugar daddy to the women who dated before you. 

I could never understand why a guy I'm dating would talk about how he used to wine and dine someone, exactly on the same date that he is trying to get me to pay for something. Well, I guess I do. some men need to brag.

Try to identify what exactly bothers you about this and perhaps that will be your pathway to closure. 

Notice how I didn't say "forgive her." Has she even asked for forgiveness?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

The lie and what mind games appear to be your problem. For me, only time keeps my W past out of my mind.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

This is not about her past. It is about the LIE.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I woud be pretty shaken and very mad if I found out many years after marriage that my spouse had lied to me about something so very imortant. I would be wondering what else they had lied about over the years and whether I could trust them now. 
She married you under false pretences and that is a massive thing. Has she apologised? Told you why she lied? Does she realise what a big thing this is for you?

As for what happens now, well if you two are to remain married then she needs to express real repentance, and you will need to eventually forgive her(not easy I know) or this will never go away.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> My wife and I have been married for more than 30 years. When we first met, we were attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, one of which was that we both shared a common value: remaining virgins until we were married.
> 
> Before I go any further, I respectfully ask that you not hijack this thread to interject your thoughts and opinions regarding why we valued virginity, whether it's normal or abnormal, whether it's good or bad, or right or wrong. Above all, please don't tell me "the past is past; just let it go." That's not the point of this thread - I'm not seeking advice on how to get over it.
> 
> ...


That is called fraud. Most people would not get over that. You had a basic understanding of how you feel about sex and she made you believe she had the same one so that she could have the opportunity to be with you. This also took a lot of sacrifice on your part, that she pretended to give. Sacrifice that you intended to share with your spouse. That's the whole point, she robbed you of that. That is a very ****ty thing to do.

Look at this way say you told her you had a college degree and the potential to make a great living that would provide her financial happiness and security, then you married and a few years later she finds out that you lied and there will be no upward potential, I doubt she would get over it. I doubt anyone would.

There is also an imbalance in your relationship that you didn't account for because she got to experience other people. Waiting until marriage is a whole lifestyle, and worldview. For most it much bigger then sex itself. What has been her response to this? Is she aware of what a terrible thing this is?

That is going to be a hard thing for anyone to get over.

Just the fact that you think you are doing something wrong here or that it is jealousy shows that you are TOO NICE. And if she is pushing the jealousy angle she really is a piece of "work". Stop trying to prevent yourself from feeling perfectly justifiable anger and disappointment about this. Do you often try to suppress your reasonable emotions to benefit her?

I would wonder what else she has lied about.

Waiting until your marriage is a sacrifice that you make that shows a specific would view about sex. That is not judging anyone else who doesn't but if someone does that, it's extremely unfair and unjust to pretend like you care about it just to better your prospects. Somehow, because it's sex lots of people think it's OK to lie. That's some bull.

What else have you settled on?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Two the Point said:


> My wife and I have been married for more than 30 years. When we first met, we were attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, one of which was that we both shared a common value: remaining virgins until we were married.
> 
> Before I go any further, I respectfully ask that you not hijack this thread to interject your thoughts and opinions regarding why we valued virginity, whether it's normal or abnormal, whether it's good or bad, or right or wrong. Above all, please don't tell me "the past is past; just let it go." That's not the point of this thread - I'm not seeking advice on how to get over it.
> 
> ...



The only way I can think of getting past that is to just get away. 
That is a marriage under false pretenses. She lied. She lied to trick you into marriage. 
She thought if he knew the truth he may move on and I cannot have that so I'll lie about myself to trick him into marrying me. What he doesn't know won't hurt him. 
No way around that lifelong pain since she is your only and you thought you two had a unique bond. 
If she lied and tricked me into marriage...I'd undo that mistake by just leaving her and divorcing. 

Since I doubt that is what you wanted to hear and isn't what you plan to do I do not really know what to do. You have only her. She is your only. You will have thoughts pop in about how your 11 years or however long you said it was were basically lies and under false pretenses. 
You will have thoughts pop into your head of her with other men...doing things to her. (you hadn't signed up for that....you thought you were both virgins), you will have thoughts plague you that you know she has all these memories and sensations in her mind that she can relive any time she wants...while she is actually with you she may be imagining a former lover or comparing you to them in her mind and heart and having thoughts of what you do better or how she enjoyed herself with them more than you. 

Her lies basically has sentenced you to a life of this. It will probably always hurt from time to time when these thoughts pop up. 

Since you waited until marriage and thought you two were equally innocent for each other...this will most assuredly hurt/affect you more than those out there who both slept around a bit before marriage. 
Since you believed you two were different and had saved this only for each other this probably hurts you in a way a guy who had slept with 10 women before marriage won't. He probably wouldn't care about her previous sex life. He has his own to think back upon. 
She has hurt you in a way many couldn't relate too. 
So, this probably will go on hurting...from time to time when these thoughts come upon you. 
No real way out of it.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

hinterdir said:


> The only way I can think of getting past that is to just get away.
> That is a marriage under false pretenses. She lied. She lied to trick you into marriage.
> She thought if he knew the truth he may move on and I cannot have that so I'll lie about myself to trick him into marrying me. What he doesn't know won't hurt him.
> No way around that lifelong pain since she is your only and you thought you two had a unique bond.
> ...



ps - I agree with what someone else mentioned. Retroactive jealousy, also this may apply "a bit" I'd say the actual lying and deception are more prevalent and this is not a clear case of retroactive jealousy. 
That would be if you KNEW about her past when you chose to marry her and still choose to think about it verses being 100% lied to and tricked into who you were marrying. 
What you are experiencing is worse.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Uriel said:


> Why yes I have and it just about killed me, or was killing me. It's like combat...they tell you not to look back when your running. Why...your percentage increases to catch a bullet. You'll figure out a way to get past it, or take it to your grave.


It is his thread and post but just out of curiosity, did you know going in and chose to go all in anyway....or were you also lied to like the OP?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Your spouse was both wrong and right.

She was wrong to lie to you. She was (if this was the reason) right to understand that you couldn't handle the truth.

What are you prepared to do? Are you ready to dissolve a 30 year marriage over this? Perhaps you feel justified in your anger over what happened Three. Damn. Decades. Ago. If I were your spouse, I suspect I would no longer be all that crazy about staying with someone who had that limited an ability to forgive.

What else can we say? You had a right to be upset. You have an obligation to yourself to either get over it or get out. Is she worth it? Has your marriage been nothing but an endless series of horrors brought into your life by the lying immoral person that you married? Or are you in fact happy in your day to day existence, clinging to something whose utility is long past its expiration date?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Your spouse was both wrong and right.
> 
> She was wrong to lie to you. She was (if this was the reason) right to understand that you couldn't handle the truth.
> 
> ...


I dont agree that she lied due to his innability to handle the truth, she did it because he had certain things that were very important for him in any future wife which she didnt have , and she didnt share his beliefs on no sex before marriage. Her lying and deception was just plain wrong, and has probably made him think his whole marriage is and was based on a lie, which is true. She married him under false pretenses and that shakes the whole foundations of any marriage no matter how long.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I dont agree that she lied due to his innability to handle the truth,


I submit that you have absolutely nothing on which to base that opinion, from what has been posted here. 

Remaining speculation deleted.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

*@Two the Point*

Have you asked your wife why she lied to you about her history? If so what did she say was the reason? 

What is your take on her reason?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

The only wrong thing you did was stay with her for two more decades after you found out the truth. Now? Staying with her 19 more years you have all but completely exonerated her of the wrong she did to you. What is that you want from us?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Your spouse was both wrong and right.
> 
> She was wrong to lie to you. She was (if this was the reason) right to understand that you couldn't handle the truth.


"Handle the truth" imply that she was entitled to have him handle it. She wasn't entitled to a relationship with him especially when the sexual terms were built on fraud.

I think it's pretty clear she lied to improve her chances. Or fraud.

She shouldn't have lied in the first place, then she wouldn't have to worry about him "handling" it.


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## Imagirl (Aug 17, 2020)

A true marriage cannot be based on a foundation of lies. I agree with everyone else, you're pissed, not jealous. And there is no reason for a married woman to talk to an ex for 45 minutes. Or at all IMO.


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## GutShot7 (Aug 2, 2020)

My wife and I discussed all of our previous relationships and how much physical action Occured in each one while we are dating. For me, discussing those details during a relationship is important. 
Lies about it years later would be hard to take, I would not be pleased. It's not about what they did prior to you, it's the lying about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I submit that you have absolutely nothing on which to base that opinion, from what has been posted here.
> 
> Remaining speculation deleted.


Its my take on it, you have yours.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think the OP is past trying to dig into all the reasons and debate motives etc. At the moment he has feelings of jealousy he's been struggling with for nearly 20 years. He's probably sick of the topic but can't get away from it. Everything people ask will probably feel like he's answered a million times before and gotten no where.

OP, this is beyond a simple solution and I don't think anyone here is going to have answers that will help you to cope with what you are feeling. I feel like you need to seek counselling to deal with this. If you've already tried counselling and it didn't help, try someone different. Right now it's down to you and how you change the way you are dealing with it. Obviously nothing will change the past, so to move on from this, you will have to be the one to change.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

AliceA said:


> I think the OP is past trying to dig into all the reasons and debate motives etc. At the moment he has feelings of jealousy he's been struggling with for nearly 20 years. He's probably sick of the topic but can't get away from it. Everything people ask will probably feel like he's answered a million times before and gotten no where.
> 
> OP, this is beyond a simple solution and I don't think anyone here is going to have answers that will help you to cope with what you are feeling. I feel like you need to seek counselling to deal with this. If you've already tried counselling and it didn't help, try someone different. Right now it's down to you and how you change the way you are dealing with it. Obviously nothing will change the past, so to move on from this, you will have to be the one to change.


Why does he have to be the one to "change" and move on from this?

How about the person who outright hugely lied to him yet to address the issue with him? It's for her to fix. She's the one who lied and totally misrepresented herself.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I submit that it's not jealousy at all but reasonable mistrust when it comes to her relationship with men. After all she choose to misrepresent her entire history with them from the very beginning because it suited her position. So why should he trust her? She is a liar. She has absolutely no credibility when it comes to this subject and he would be foolish to think anything different. That's not jealousy it's wisdom and basic self preservation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Livvie said:


> Why does he have to be the one to "change" and move on from this?
> 
> How about the person who outright hugely lied to him yet to address the issue with him? It's for her to fix. She's the one who lied and totally misrepresented herself.


He is the one who is here looking for help. We cannot do anything to make her to change. He cannot change his wife, the only person he can change is himself.

He has a choice. He can continue to steep in this agony, or he can make changes in himself that take away his agony.

I doubt that there is anything that his wife can do to help him with this.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

OP, can you guess what it was about you that made you so attractive, that your wife was willing to lie 30+ years ago to get you?

Are you very good looking, make a lot of money, were you such a great match personality wise; that she knew she would never find anyone as compatible?

There had to be a reason that she didn't want to lose you. She must have been in her very early 20's, so she wouldn't have been desperate, or satisfying her ticking biological clock.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I can see both sides to this. I too don't feel that you're jealous, but feeling betrayed - to your core. And I completely understand why. You had discussions about this, thought the two of you held the same views so you chose to marry based on those convos and shared values. Had she been honest from the start you may still have married her, but that choice was taken from you with her lie. I can also see how she may have loved you so very much and been frightened of losing you, so told a lie - and in saying that I am not condoning what she did, just saying that I can see how it may have happened.

Not sure what to advise now - have you discussed your feelings on this with your wife? Would you be willing to try marriage counselling? If your marriage has been otherwise happy, and there are children involved it seems a shame to end it over this, particularly so long after you found out.


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## Two the Point (Aug 10, 2020)

notmyrealname4 said:


> OP, can you guess what it was about you that made you so attractive, that your wife was willing to lie 30+ years ago to get you?
> 
> Are you very good looking, make a lot of money, were you such a great match personality wise; that she knew she would never find anyone as compatible?
> 
> There had to be a reason that she didn't want to lose you. She must have been in her very early 20's, so she wouldn't have been desperate, or satisfying her ticking biological clock.



Here is what makes this so difficult:

With the exception of her being dishonest with me about the virginity issue, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful wife and mother of our children. She puts everyone before herself, and has lived her day-to-day life in accordance with such high values that it makes me exceptionally proud to be her husband and thankful that she is my wife.

In response to your statement, "There had to be a reason that she didn't want to lose you." Here is the reason:

During her high school and college years, she felt as though having sex with her boyfriends was the normal thing to do. All of her closest friends were "doing it," and every guy she dated expected it.

When she met me, one who was committed to remaining a virgin until marriage, she saw something that she had never seen in any of her previous boyfriends: that she could be loved and show love without having to have sex before marriage. While she had not lived her life like that prior to meeting me, she developed a deep regret for her past decisions and, from that point forward, made a commitment to "give herself" only to the man she would marry. We dated for three years prior to getting married, and during that time we refrained from having sex.

So, the woman I dated was indeed one who was committed to the same values as me. It just took her a little longer to discover what truly mattered most to her, and who she wanted to become. As people, we grow into the person we want to become through our life experiences.

When I found out about her prior lifestyle eleven years into our marriage, I asked her why she was not upfront with me when we were dating. She told me that I was the first guy she had ever met who demonstrated the values that she truly admired in a man; values that she herself wanted to live (which she did indeed live during the entire three years we dated).

She lied to me because she was afraid to lose me - the man who was different than any man she had ever met in her life. 

While it was very painful for me to hear the truth, I commend her for being honest with me when I asked her about her prior relationships. I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must have been for her to divulge the truth, because we love each other so much and she knew that it would hurt me deeply. 

The toughest part of all this is that we love each other so much; yet, decades into our marriage, the retroactive jealousy issue persists and is something that I feel the pain of on an ongoing basis. At the same time, she goes through the pain of watching me go through it, and feeling responsible for causing such hurt to the person she loves most.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Livvie said:


> Why does he have to be the one to "change" and move on from this?
> 
> How about the person who outright hugely lied to him yet to address the issue with him? It's for her to fix. She's the one who lied and totally misrepresented herself.


Because you're talking to him, and he has no control over anyone but himself. You can tell him until you're blue in the face that she has to fix something she did 30 years ago, but I don't think it's going to be the magic pill that resolves his feelings of jealousy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Two the Point said:


> Here is what makes this so difficult:
> 
> With the exception of her being dishonest with me about the virginity issue, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful wife and mother of our children. She puts everyone before herself, and has lived her day-to-day life in accordance with such high values that it makes me exceptionally proud to be her husband and thankful that she is my wife.
> 
> ...


Is there anything that you think she could do to put your mind at rest?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> He is the one who is here looking for help. We cannot do anything to make her to change. He cannot change his wife, the only person he can change is himself.
> 
> He has a choice. He can continue to steep in this agony, or he can make changes in himself that take away his agony.
> 
> I doubt that there is anything that his wife can do to help him with this.


Perhaps the point was not that he's the only one who can assuredly change and has the responsibility for making decisions in his best interest, but rather that the ball is in his wife's course to try and understand the betrayal of trust and seek counseling for why she found it OK to deceive her future husband on an issue that was quite so "binary". She has a false narrative that exists for a reason. It's her option to correct that narrative and explain her reasoning, both back then, and why she let it sit for 11 years.

On the other hand- once he found out, 11 years into the marriage, I believe the 19+ years of living with it without dealing with it are something of a tacit acceptance. She may not have felt compelled to fix things.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Two the Point said:


> Here is what makes this so difficult:
> 
> With the exception of her being dishonest with me about the virginity issue, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful wife and mother of our children. She puts everyone before herself, and has lived her day-to-day life in accordance with such high values that it makes me exceptionally proud to be her husband and thankful that she is my wife.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of this that rings true for me, except that I'd had a prior long-term (two years) relationship that was fully sexual the last 6 months, so it's not as if I was against sex before marriage. But sex, to me, was not something to be engaged in casually. When I met my to-be wife, her narrative not only excluded sex with at least two prior guys, but she sold herself as "saving herself for marriage." Which I highly respected. She was sickened by her past and saw me as a way to escape. I was the guy who *wasn't* telling her that,"If you really love me, you'll have sex with me. That's how you know we're really in love."

The biggest issue was that I was 100% open and transparent about everything, who I was, my past, my expectations. And she claimed to do so herself, but the reality is that an open, vulnerable person can really be taken advantage of by someone who claims to be open and truthful but has real issues with vulnerability. My wife had been burned by two guys. "Sex" had betrayed her. So what happens? When we get to the sex part (well before marriage, by the way), everything falls apart. She was extremely sexual, ok, horny, and I'm down with that. In the "everything but" category, things were great. But as soon as we had sex, it was like wow, she became indifferent to physical intimacy and worse. Me? I felt immense guilt, thinking I'd "broken" her by having sex with her. I got married thinking things would get better. Did they?

We're in IC & MC & sex therapy because it's come out that she's resented sex for 40+ years, I've suffered extreme feelings of rejection, and she's lead a double-life of sorts believing we have had a great marriage without any consideration to our intimacy issues. We have a hopeful future because the truth about her past came out a year and a half ago, given reasons for her lengthy depression and feelings about sex and need for control. 

So let's bring this back to you, @Two the Point. In my case, my wife's secrets and dishonesty did huge damage to our relationship. "Real" damage, which took place before the revelations. But for you, that doesn't seem to be the case. How has physical intimacy been? Has she given you reason to distrust her elsewhere? As much as I stand on ethics and principles, if my wife's actions hadn't screwed over our marriage so badly, I don't think it would have been nearly as big a deal. It's tough for me to know how I'd feel in your shoes.

But one thing for sure. If you haven't had counseling yet, geez guy, you sure as heck need it. Individual counseling, not just marriage counseling. Your wife probably needs it as well. And if your wife is having issues understanding where you're coming from, marriage counseling may help. My wife has had virtually zero empathy for what I've gone through (and continue to go through). It sounds like your wife may be different, which should really help. Note that my wife is trying, really, really hard. But keeping secrets like that for so long did a number on her.

Best of luck-


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

AliceA said:


> Because you're talking to him, and he has no control over anyone but himself. You can tell him until you're blue in the face that she has to fix something she did 30 years ago, but I don't think it's going to be the magic pill that resolves his feelings of jealousy.


Its not really jealousy...its more hurt. You have it setvin your mind you have something special that she gave you. She has no other memories with others to think about. Now you find out she had sex with other men. It feels almost like being cheated on. For years you and she are one and only...now you are not her one and only. You have to get it in your head other guys had her too, when you married you were made to believe you were the only. 
Its hard to resolve what you had was not really something special like you thought and she decieved you. It is just a tough pill.


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## Two the Point (Aug 10, 2020)

Divinely Favored said:


> Its not really jealousy...its more hurt. You have it set in your mind you have something special that she gave you. She has no other memories with others to think about. Now you find out she had sex with other men. It feels almost like being cheated on. For years you and she are one and only...now you are not her one and only. You have to get it in your head other guys had her too, when you married you were made to believe you were the only.
> Its hard to resolve what you had was not really something special like you thought and she deceived you. It is just a tough pill.


Thank you, Divinely Favored -- What you said is an absolutely perfect description of what I'm feeling. I couldn't have said it better myself!

By now, my wife is sick and tired of discussing this. Each time we discuss it, it's very painful to her, seeing the degree to which she has hurt me. In a recent discussion, she described herself as feeling helpless and hopeless when it comes to helping me get through this.

As painful as it is for her to be a part of helping me get through this, I would like her to be immersed in this right along with me, as I feel as though I'm in this alone because the topic is difficult for her to deal with. I need her to support me, but I don't know exactly what that might entail.

A FAVOR TO ASK OF YOU: If you were in my wife's position, what would you do (be specific) that might be a good means of helping me and supporting me through this ordeal?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

@Casual Observer is right -you need individual counseling to help you through this. There is nothing more that your wife can do. Yes, you are lonely in this experience because it is your and your only. You need to figure out how to deal with it going forward. It is on you. 
And stop calling it retroactive jealousy. This is not jealousy but betrayal that crumbled the foundation of your marriage.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

If I were in your wife's position, I would divorce you and then you would have the option of remarrying me with full knowledge of my past or not. 

You haven't said (that I can recall) how old she was when you met. If she was still in her early twenties, her brain wasn't fully developed. I think we have to allow for the biological component of youth. When she knew better, she did better.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Yes your wife lied to you ( issue number 1) with a subject you felt that was very important to you in accordance with your values, and mind you values she clearly did not hold as strongly (issue number 2) as your self. She carried those lies through out your marriage and only when confronted didn’t she spill the beans. So now what she can’t go back in time to fix her mistakes, she can’t wipe your memories of this confession truth so what in your mind do you want from her to make amends? She has apparently been faith since you met, she feels bad for her actions also apparently but you both know that a trust has been broken and you feel on some level you do not know her....which I agree given those two issues......so now what? 

If those two issues are so important to you than as others mentioned divorce her......or perhaps this jealousy can only be avenged via some form of hall pass for you, both we both know that will never fix the two issues that hurt you the most....so what in your mind do you want ? Don’t look to your wife because she can not change the past.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In the past, males didn’t have to hide their past experiences but females often felt they had to — especially true for those who were pressured into sex by previous boyfriends. Why? Shame and fear. There are plenty of women of my generation who, when asked long ago about their experience, lied and will take their secrets to the grave because they are still afraid to face the consequences. Maybe counseling could help both of you deal with those past lies.


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## ShatteredKat (Mar 23, 2016)

well said Blondilocks



"If I were in your wife's position, I would divorce you and then you would have the option of remarrying me with full knowledge of my past or not.

You haven't said (that I can recall) how old she was when you met. If she was still in her early twenties, her brain wasn't fully developed. I think we have to allow for the biological component of youth. When she knew better, she did better."


what i read some posts is a bit troubling - for example 

Think of someone who embezzled several hundred thousand dollars - got found out - did "their time" and "payed their debt to society" and is now out of the can - as a convicted felon

So applying the thinking of what the wife did - 30 years later - as it would apply to the felon - who, btw, has led an honest life for 30 years, never even getting a parking ticket - and someone finds out their past (job? neighborhood? professional org?" - they should now wear the Scarlet Letter in dayglow front and rear of their shirt? 

You can't change history - you accept and live with what happened.

Two the Point has stated she has been a model wife - for 30 years - seems his problem is an obsession to him and he needs to work on himself.


think of the horror Germany (as a state with really bad leadership) foisted on the Jews - 

applying the thinking of some - Germany is to be forever damned

I don't sit well with that assessment.

Blondilocks suggestion - well - he would then be married (if he re-married!) knowing "the full history"

but - he would still doubt her honesty to some extent - maybe very minor worry - but still has to live with the history

as others mention - she was young and still learning about life and when meeting someone with better moral (!?)
rules for life and she looked at her past and regrets and did what she thought best in the moment - for selfish reason for sure - but the lie got her a 30 year good marriage. "Good Trade" 

As Mr. Reagon said - "Trust but Verify"

Personally - I think "virginity" is 100% over-rated. one good thing about it - hard to get an STD if you say a virgin


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Two the Point said:


> My wife and I have been married for more than 30 years. When we first met, we were attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, one of which was that we both shared a common value: remaining virgins until we were married.
> 
> Before I go any further, I respectfully ask that you not hijack this thread to interject your thoughts and opinions regarding why we valued virginity, whether it's normal or abnormal, whether it's good or bad, or right or wrong. Above all, please don't tell me "the past is past; just let it go." That's not the point of this thread - I'm not seeking advice on how to get over it.
> 
> ...


First, I find it beyond improbable to date someone for 7 years with no intimacy.

Your situation in this is almost equally sideways. You must have come from an extremely sheltered background to believe that a 7 year relationship didn't go physical.

With that weirdness put aside, your problem isn't her past. Your problem is that a central foundation of your marriage is a lie.

Edited.

I just caught up.

I would probably spank her and take her to bed where she would atone for being a bad girl but that is just me.

I feel for guys like you but probably anything that I know would work for me most likely wouldn't float your boat.

You need a way to re-establish yourself inside your own head where it counts.

That might include some external things like getting in shape, completing a task or accomplishing a goal for example.

It could, and probably should, include your wife having some way to redeem herself and atone for her bad behavior.

BTW, talking to a former boyfriend, who she lied through her teeth to you about, for 45 minutes was incredibly disrespectful.

Has she done anything to make up for that? She honestly doesn't sound very brilliant about not destroying her marriage.

Regardless, I believe your answers will be internal. 

What do you need to snap into place to restore your peace, balance and sense of control over your own life?

What do you believe can restore the agency she took from you?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Divinely Favored said:


> Its not really jealousy...its more hurt. You have it setvin your mind you have something special that she gave you. She has no other memories with others to think about. Now you find out she had sex with other men. It feels almost like being cheated on. For years you and she are one and only...now you are not her one and only. You have to get it in your head other guys had her too, when you married you were made to believe you were the only.
> *Its hard to resolve what you had was not really something special like you thought* and she decieved you. It is just a tough pill.


Not quite. It might have been something special had he known, had he had the chance to process who she was, who he was, what they might become. That is was something special, to him, at the time, makes it all the worse because he understands how well deception can work. He's dealing with a strange feeling of infidelity, of a sexual nature, even though it happened before him, due to the false and now-corrected narrative.

He can't get through this on his own, and his wife can't give him the assurances that he needs. He's feeling so many different things, including inadequacy, stupidity, and gullibility. To some extent he's going through the stuff that convinced his then-girlfriend to reinvent herself. It was more than she thought the relationship could handle. He's getting those same feelings now. That might be the best way to explain it to his wife.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> Here is what makes this so difficult:
> 
> With the exception of her being dishonest with me about the virginity issue, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful wife and mother of our children. She puts everyone before herself, and has lived her day-to-day life in accordance with such high values that it makes me exceptionally proud to be her husband and thankful that she is my wife.
> 
> ...


Stop calling it jealousy! You don't trust her when it comes to past boyfriends because she lied to you in the worst way possible when it comes to that. Of course you don't trust her. You had a terrible traumatic experience in your life that was triggered by her dishonesty about her past relationships, so OF COURSE when it comes up you will relive this trauma. I suggest you tell her what is going on in those terms. SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS, AND THAT IS THE CONSEQUENCES. I am sure every boyfriend that comes up you wonder did I hear the truth about that one?

Besides that this is a great loss for you, it's a cultural one and you will probably always be sad about that. What does she say when you talk about that? You do talk about that right? I suspect you probably feel like you wasted you virginity on her. I don't blame you, now you probably wish you could find out what experiences you missed out on. Again I don't blame you. I wonder if she gets this. Probably not, people who don't wait just don't understand the sacrifice it is.

I suggest you go get counseling, but it better damn well NOT be about jealousy, like you are doing something wrong here (because you are not) it needs to be about trauma, betrayal and loss. Unless you see this for what it is (NOT YOU BEING A BAD GUY or SOME FAILING OF YOURS) you will not get better. Also your marriage probably won't make it unless she takes ownership for this. Posting on here shows you are close to being done even if you don't want to admit it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Dealing with this for 19 years has to have robbed some of the joy from your life. Either accept that life isn't fair and you got the short end of the stick in this regard or move away from the constant trigger.

There is nothing she can do. She can not un**** those guys or take back the pretension. Her words and love and actions have not assuaged your feelings of being short-changed. The ball is in your court.

eta: the filter didn't catch the nasty so *I *edited it out.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Two the Point said:


> After having gone through this for decades, I just found out that it is something called retroactive jealousy, which has ties to obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD).


Listen man: stop relying on ******** psychology. Firstly, most, if not all of those pathetic Psychologist are nothing but quacks that they themselves need psychological help and evaluation.
I will give you for free the correct evaluation for your problems: you have deep resentments towards your wife, and you are piss-off due to her deceit. You were marry to her under subterfuge, lies, and outright deceit. 

You found the true way too late into your marriage, and of course, you found yourself stucked. It's understandable to have carry that resentment because your needed to stick around because family. 

No, it doesn't go away. You might put it in the recesses of your brain, but it it will always be there.

You either live with it and carry on as that being in the past, or you don't, and do what you need to to to extract yourself from this relationship. Those are your options. Choose.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

She couldn't have couched her lying to you in nicer terms. It's obvious she is a real expert in it. Don't you understand she lied because you are just SO GREAT she couldn't help it. She thought you were SO GREAT, but just not great enough to tell you the truth, or worse trust you with the truth. Have you ever asked her is there anything else in you life that he doesn't have the respect enough to allow you to make informed decisions about, because of your wonderfulness?
These people are the worst.

Let's say exactly what she said but not in the flowery way she put it. - _ 

I knew this was one of the most important assessments that you would use to help choose a mate and what a sacrifice you were making, so I decided to completely dismissed this and allowed you to make an uniformed decision about one of the biggest most important aspect the person you would marry, the most important in your life, so that I could have a chance. I decided to rob you of that opportunity. So I figured I just wouldn't tell you and you wouldn't know the difference, after all that is not really important anyway, and I wanted a stable guy like you. Then I lied about it and pretended to be someone I am not for 10 year. I allows you to believe this lie as a basic part of or marriage story. I also continued to talk to these men who shared my lies right in front of you. Finally after it came out for the past 30 years I have not taken ownership of that but made you feel guilty and responsible for your hurt and pain over this. So much so that you think you are abusing me with unreasonable jealousy and have to post to strangers about it._

There that is an honest take. Doesn't sound so great when you put it that way does it? But that is closer to the truth. Not so nice when you put it that way is it.

I also suspect somehow that this was never really covered in those terms just rug-swept by you, who seems like the typical white knight that would be lied to exactly like this as it plays right against your nature.

Seriously if it wasn't so tragic it would laughable that you actually think YOU are the one doing something wrong.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

> While it was very painful for me to hear the truth, I commend her for being honest with me when I asked her about her prior relationships. I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must have been for her to divulge the truth, because we love each other so much and she knew that it would hurt me deeply.


She had you on the lamb for 11 years before she was finally caught and had to confess. Had she not schmoozed with an ex boyfriend for 45 minutes and you not gotten justifiably pissed, the truth would have never come out, and she would have taken her dirty little secret to the grave. 



> The toughest part of all this is that we love each other so much; yet, decades into our marriage, the retroactive jealousy issue persists and is something that I feel the pain of on an ongoing basis. At the same time, she goes through the pain of watching me go through it, and feeling responsible for causing such hurt to the person she loves most.


 As others have said, it is not jealousy. It is hurt and anger that the one person you trusted lied to you... for years. She feels guilt, but where is her accountability? Let me ask you, when the truth came out, did she go before your parents and hers and confess to them that she entered into you marriage under fraudulent circumstances? Has she admitted to anyone other than you what she did? 

Other than failing to take full accountability for being a lying asshole when she was a kid, I can't see where she has failed to be a good wife to you since then. So my advice is you need to suck it up and move on. You should have bailed two decades ago but didn't, so now you need to accept the ramifications of YOUR choice to stay with her. That hurt and anger is something you need to work with a therapist to get it purged out of you, or else you need to bury it and let it fester and let it take a decade off your life.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

I see nothing here that is retroactive jealousy.
The issue here is that your marriage was based on a lie. Your now wife chose to strip you of your just agency in making a life decision, but instead chose to weave a narrative that suited her own personal agenda.
Nineteen+ years ago, your wife was disrespectful to you in choosing to accept a 45 minute phone call that ultimately severely and profoundly damaged the foundation of your marriage.
The problem is that you chose to rugsweep it and let it fester for 19+ years.
I understand that hindsight is 20/20 vision. However, at that point, you should have held her accountable by informing her that since she had destroyed all the trust in your marriage, it was incumbent upon her to either work to restore it, or you both would need to go your separate ways.
You have been damaged by this. You have a right to feel resentment. However, in fairness to your spouse, you let this thing drag on for 19+ years without working on it ,or attempting to work through or bring closure to it.
Did your wife feel true remorse for her actions at the time? What efforts or actions did she take at the time to make amends or to repair the damage? What has she done to rebuild trust?
Even though this is not an infidelity situation, many of the principles and strategies that cheating, remorseful spouses take to restore trust in a relationship could apply here. Perhaps a book such as this one could provide you and your wife with some guidance:








How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair


As an infidelity specialist for 23 years, therapist Linda J. MacDonald has identified behaviors and attitudes that determine unfaithful p...



www.goodreads.com




The OP needs to sit down and decides what he wants. If he is truly that affected, he might want to file for divorce or set up a scenario in which his wife earns back his trust and repairs the damage to their marriage. OP will need to sit down and determine what that looks like for him.
He needs some counseling, and it sounds like his wife needs some as well. After some time, perhaps some MC would be in order if they both decide they want to continue the marriage.
However, in fairness to all, the OP needs to get a handle on things NOW and work through it, or walk away.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> First, I find it beyond improbable to date someone for 7 years with no intimacy.
> 
> Your situation in this is almost equally sideways. You must have come from an extremely sheltered background to believe that a 7 year relationship didn't go physical.
> 
> ...


I was going to make a comment about this because it appears no one else caught this little tidbit.

I also want to add what *@sokillme *mentioned*.*

The Lie.

That was a huge lie she kept for years.

If she's able to keep that one, she's able to keep any.

The wondering would kill me inside.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> She had you on the lamb for 11 years before she was finally caught and had to confess. Had she not schmoozed with an ex boyfriend for 45 minutes and you not gotten justifiably pissed, the truth would have never come out, and she would have taken her dirty little secret to the grave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If he is posting anonymously on a message boards thinking this is about his "retroactive jealousy" I can see very clearly that she is not a good wife. It's like a big glaring red sign.

This is a good example of where character permeates every part of a relationship. The same kind of person who lies about something as important as this (for 10 years) is the type that will then let the person they abused with this lie take ownership of the reasonable mistrust he has when it comes to this subject. Enough that they will allow them to suffer for 30 years and think that this very reasonable response is some moral failing on there part.

Nah she isn't a good wife. A good wife would understand and be extra careful when it comes to old boyfriends because she know she's has lost all credibility.

If you think about it this dude has spent 30 year apologizing to her for being upset by her abuse. And she was content to let that happen. Not a good spouse at all.

There only chance is if she really falls hard on her sword here. If not they won't make it, because he is waking up to the ******** he has been excepting for years. That is what this post is all about.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Deleted by TJW


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Tdbo said:


> The OP needs to sit down and decides what he wants. If he is truly that affected, he might want to file for divorce or set up a scenario in which his wife earns back his trust and repairs the damage to their marriage. OP will need to sit down and determine what that looks like for him.
> He needs some counseling, and it sounds like his wife needs some as well. After some time, perhaps some MC would be in order if they both decide they want to continue the marriage.
> However, in fairness to all, the OP needs to get a handle on things NOW and work through it, or walk away.


I am highly sympathetic to what OP has been going through. Anyone who's read my threads can see the parallels. And yet, he has let this slide, without the sort of confrontation that would lead to a resolution, for 19 years???!!! His wife is exhausted by 19 years of her husband grieving over this, not knowing how to handle it. He has to take some responsibility for that. In my threads, many have worked hard to rip me a new one because I've been "torturing" my wife for the year and a half since discovering that the reasons for lack of intimacy and "resenting" sex throughout our relationship were because of her past history with guys that burned her after sex. And she'd claimed to me that she was "saving herself" for marriage. 

It became my responsibility to resolve our issues as quickly as possible, not just stew about them. I was in individual counseling within 3 months of discovery, marriage counseling 3 months later, individual counseling for me wife a couple months after that. I'm not saying I'm the model for how to deal with this stuff, but I could not have tolerated just thinking about it, without help, for even a year. It was destroying me. It was destroying our marriage. OP let a lot of time go by before and that was not a good thing.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

op, how would wife go for that?
you get to be with another woman?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ShatteredKat said:


> well said Blondilocks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Even if someone committed a crime many years ago they still need to tell their potential spouse. Hiding big important things is asking for trouble.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> If I were in your wife's position, I would divorce you and then you would have the option of remarrying me with full knowledge of my past or not.
> 
> You haven't said (that I can recall) how old she was when you met. If she was still in her early twenties, her brain wasn't fully developed. I think we have to allow for the biological component of youth. When she knew better, she did better.


I have never gone along with that idea that people in their early 20's are not yet adults. I married at 19, bought my first home at 20 and had my first child at 21.That was pretty normal back then. Its only recenly that young adults are told that they are still not yet grown up.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I have never gone along with that idea that people in their early 20's are not yet adults. I married at 19, bought my first home at 20 and had my first child at 21.That was pretty normal back then. Its only recenly that young adults are told that they are still not yet grown up.


Just saying there are young women the church has done heavy damage to w/regards sex and how to view yourself if you screw up. The whole saving yourself and abstinence thing is fine IF you do so, but there is no message of forgiveness for having fallen if you don't. You become a ruined vessel for your future husband. Some women get past this, some don't. My wife did not. 

That you were able to stay faithful to your religion's teachings about sex is great. For you. But the experience of forgiveness and renewal in the Christian faith is a promise, not something to be conveniently overlooked when trying to scare the crap out of young people so they don't have sex.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I have never gone along with that idea that people in their early 20's are not yet adults. I married at 19, bought my first home at 20 and had my first child at 21.That was pretty normal back then. Its only recenly that young adults are told that they are still not yet grown up.


Hey, stop messing with my possible excuse for him to use to get over this.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Let’s rewind to the beginning of the relationship:

Did she OUTRIGHT tell you that she was a virgin? Or was it something you danced around in hope and did a blind eye truth?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> Here is what makes this so difficult:
> 
> With the exception of her being dishonest with me about the virginity issue, I couldn't ask for a more wonderful wife and mother of our children. She puts everyone before herself, and has lived her day-to-day life in accordance with such high values that it makes me exceptionally proud to be her husband and thankful that she is my wife.
> 
> ...


Again it isn't retroactive jealousy. 

It is the fact that she lied from the start of your relationship. 

She knew you were looking for someone waiting like yourself, her lie kept you from finding her. 

When you thought you were in a special relationship with someone with the same values turned into a complete lie.

She stole something from you that you can never get back. You can't get over something unless you truly see it for what it is. She took away something you waited until marriage for, the finding of a woman waiting like yourself. She lied to you because she was selfish and didn't give a damn about you waiting. If she really loved you back then she would have been honest with you.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Your wife needs to do the work to help you heal. She should of found out how to do it 19 years ago. She has obviously never read any books or found a way to help you.

I guess you can look at that as how much she truly cares about you. Your wife "I know I hurt you but I don't know how to fix this. No, I won't find out how to either."


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Openminded said:


> In the past, males didn’t have to hide their past experiences but females often felt they had to — especially true for those who were pressured into sex by previous boyfriends. Why? Shame and fear. There are plenty of women of my generation who, when asked long ago about their experience, lied and will take their secrets to the grave because they are still afraid to face the consequences. Maybe counseling could help both of you deal with those past lies.


Look I am not trying to pick on you but man is this is ever a non sequitur. This reply which is often given doesn't really follow the facts of a situations like this. This is not some guy who went out an spread his wild oats so to speak and then expects his wife to be pure and virginal flower like the picture you paint. This is a man who chose not to have any experience so that he could have a special unique sexual relationship with his wife, then purposely picked someone who lying told him they shared the same values and experiences. It's not a double standard like your post indicates, but I am sure this type of response which I bet he hears a lot help to shape OP's confusion on the issue.

This is much more akin to a cultural choice, imagine if someone was Jewish for instance and was dating someone who told them the whole time they were Jewish, now obviously most people can understand the cultural significance of wanting to marry someone who is from the same cultural as you are. Then imagine they find out after they were married that this person was never Jewish but were just playing along because to do so gave them a better chance to marry. In fact all the culturally significant events discussed were lies. There would be no talk about the past of double standards or anything like that.

This man had reasonable expectations that were based around his belief system and were obviously clearly discussed. She subverted them and took away agency in his own life so that she could selfishly put herself in a position to be with him. The taking away this man's agency puts this much closer to rape then some sort of sexual moral double standard.

Bottom line is she took away his right to make an informed choice.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Look I am not trying to pick on you but man is this is ever a non sequitur. This reply which is often given doesn't really follow the facts of a situations like this. This is not some guy who went out an spread his wild oats so to speak and then expects his wife to be pure and virginal flower like the picture you paint. This is a man who chose not to have any experience so that he could have a special unique sexual relationship with his wife, then purposely picked someone who lying told him they shared the same values and experiences. It's not a double standard like your post indicates, but I am sure this type of response which I bet he hears a lot help to shape OP's confusion on the issue.
> 
> This is much more akin to a cultural choice, imagine if someone was Jewish for instance and was dating someone who told them the whole time they were Jewish, now obviously most people can understand the cultural significance of wanting to marry someone who is from the same cultural as you are. Then imagine they find out after they were married that this person was never Jewish but were just playing along because to do so gave them a better chance to marry. In fact all the culturally significant events discussed were lies. There would be no talk about the past of double standards or anything like that.
> 
> ...


My response may not address your point because I don’t read your posts. My point was to explain to him how life worked for many females of my generation. I stand by it.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Waiting until your marriage is a sacrifice that you make that shows a specific would view about sex. That is not judging anyone else who doesn't but if someone does that, it's extremely unfair and unjust to pretend like you care about it just to better your prospects. Somehow, because it's sex lots of people think it's OK to lie. That's some bull.


the fear that I would have in accepting a condition like that is what if the relationship did not progress on to marriage. And then learn that in 2 weeks, for example, he's having sex with another woman (en). or in the issue of money, after I had faithfully paid my way throughout the relationship to learn that he is wining and dining someone else just weeks within our break up. 

The other for women and sex is how can you tell whether the guy is in the closet or not. On all my years on message boards, I've never read threads by men concerned about someone they're dating who may be a closet lesbian.

I really believe that the guy I dated between marriages was still in the closet. And if I had not pushed for sex, we would not have had it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> the fear that I would have in accepting a condition like that is what if the relationship did not progress on to marriage. And then learn that in 2 weeks, for example, he's having sex with another woman (en). or in the issue of money, after I had faithfully paid my way throughout the relationship to learn that he is wining and dining someone else just weeks within our break up.
> 
> The other for women and sex is how can you tell whether the guy is in the closet or not. On all my years on message boards, I've never read threads by men concerned about someone they're dating who may be a closet lesbian.
> 
> I really believe that the guy I dated between marriages was still in the closet. And if I had not pushed for sex, we would not have had it.


Plenty of men have a bunch of sex and are still in the closet. How many gay men in the past 50 years have had kids with women for instance, only to come out later. As someone who has a very low count I really get tired of hearing people assume this was because I was secretly gay. I doubt any of the girls I dated had the fear, it was pretty clear I was into them but abstaining by choice. Also doesn't mean I didn't do other stuff besides intercourse. 

Unfortunately, I really feel, since this is not very common most people posting about it don't really understand how it worked. Believe me there was plenty of times where I knew I could have had my fun but I didn't by choice. I had an attitude and still do that sex is sacred, it was very important to me that the person I was with felt the same way. I wanted it to be unique, I didn't want them to think of it like any other action, like getting coffee with someone. I have no problem if that is your take, but it's not mine. 

I was not a virgin on my wedding night but I waited until I was in love before I had it my first time, and we had dated for a long time. I was also older then most of the guys I knew. Believe me that was not easy. Nor was the rejection that a faced because of it. There were many women who I could tell thought I was weird, or like you just said they probably felt I was gay. I can't imagine going through all that only to have my wife disrespect my choices so much as to basically mock me by lying about the whole thing, a thing that I felt reverence about and a choice that I made to abstain from a lot of pleasure for purposely.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> BTW, talking to a former boyfriend, who she lied through her teeth to you about, for 45 minutes was incredibly disrespectful.
> 
> Has she done anything to make up for that? She honestly doesn't sound very brilliant about not destroying her marriage.


This is 100% correct. She is SO FAR outside the boundaries of a good protective marriage with this. First she LIED to you about this guy, and now she just "HAS TO" get caught up with him.
You need to make it clear to her that it is NOT acceptable for her to do this, especially since she lied to you about him for all these years. You cannot control what she does, but you CAN make it clear what the repercussions are if she ever does this again.


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## Two the Point (Aug 10, 2020)

Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.

My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

ShatteredKat said:


> well said Blondilocks
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your post isn't really honest. 
All of your useless examples deal with obvious "known" offenses. 

Being tricked into marrying someone you may not have ever married if they were up front isn't on par with your take at all. 
Your take is only valid if she OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGED the truth during the dating phase and then he still chooses to marry but holds it over her. 
That is not the case. He was deceived into the marriage up front. He was never given the true info to make an informed decision. 

The fact that he had drug this out 20 more years....constantly bothered, to me, just shows he isn't decisive nor has the balls to just dump her and move on...he is stuck in a state of fear, too afraid to boldly cut the ties....but still is miserable from the lie and deception. 

Either he doesn't care and it is no big deal, move on, never worry about it again (obviously he doesn't feel that way)
or you divorce as soon as you find out due to the severity of the deception and the possible emotional and moral offense he may take. 

He was unable to do either of these and is in endless torment.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.
> 
> My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


I dont think that people were asking whether she has appologised or did anything to help rebuild the trust for the phone call, but for the lies she told you before you married. The deception. Marrying you under false pretences.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I’m still wondering if you had a DIRECT AND UPFRONT CONVERSATION ABOUT HER STATUS......while you were dating.

Did you or didn’t you?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Two the Point said:


> Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.
> 
> My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


There's a binary approach to answers on TAM that can make things complex seem very simple. The fact that your wife carried on a conversation with the person she lost her virginity to does not, by itself, have to be that big a deal. My ex, whom I lost my virginity to, eventually became a friend years after we broke up. It was not a relationship that went from lovers to being friends though. My soon-to-be-wife knew all about her and never felt threatened by her, because I kept her at a distance. For two years I did not cross paths socially or pretty much any other way with my ex, despite going to the same college. 

Today, she calls me from time to time, usually something about her bike (I'm in the bicycle biz). We catch up on our kids, what they're up to. My wife has a friendly relationship with her but more importantly, and I guess with some annoyance in a weird sort of way, she's never felt threatened by her at all. Not threatened by the woman I lost my virginity to. The only other woman in my life. 

I can see where your wife wasn't thinking about you feeling threatened by her ex calling out of the blue, partly because she was naive, but mostly because your wife has been living in two different worlds, just like my wife had been. Your wife had the world she narrated for you, and the different world she actually lived in. Her ex wasn't part of a world that had you in it. 

But, quite literally, Thank God for that phone call, because it brought out the truth. Similar to my discovery of my wife's diaries and her real life, which was not at all like her narrative to me. You would not have known otherwise.

What you haven't mentioned though- did you ever suspect? Did you have any reason to doubt her story (that you were her first)? I had plenty of indications, but my wife would deny and double-down on the lies at every opportunity, making me out to be the bad guy for questioning anything. My wife has suffered pretty extensive mental issues due to her hidden past, and is only now finally beginning to deal with things from 43 years ago, things which she told herself it was better to lock away in a box and never visit.

But in your wife's case, it doesn't appear she came away damaged? You've had a good sex life? You feel, other than this that she's been open and honest with you? Let's look at something more directly. Has your sex life been what you expected?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Openminded said:


> In the past, males didn’t have to hide their past experiences but females often felt they had to — especially true for those who were pressured into sex by previous boyfriends. Why? Shame and fear. There are plenty of women of my generation who, when asked long ago about their experience, lied and will take their secrets to the grave because they are still afraid to face the consequences. Maybe counseling could help both of you deal with those past lies.


Shame is a huge issue. Guilt can often be seen to motivate improvement, but shame causes one to hide and not deal with the problem. From a woman's perspective, I can see where sexual shame would be the most-likely issue but I can assure you that shame is not exclusive to women. It may not be sexual shame that haunts some men, but there are an awful lot of things in the closet that can hold men back from their full potential, and cause damage to their partners, as well.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I've met a couple of women in their 30s and 40s who were pledging (to themselves) that they would wait until marriage to have sex. They weren't virgins. And it seemed as if they weren't consistent either. They had this belief that if you withheld sex from a guy, he will want to marry you sooner, not later. And some women do talk about having an FWB in the background. There was a message board for it.

another thing I didn't like about this lifestyle choice is that some of the women had a "getting something for nothing" attitude with the guys they were dating, or at least had a dated with. "They didn't put out." So I guess, if a guy is happy to have an emotional affair with this type of woman, well, they've got it.

As I said, I would not trust a guy who wanted me to be exclusive to him but wanted to avoid sex. And it's ok if a guy chooses not to date a woman because she wants to wait until marriage. She can find someone else who agrees with her timeline.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.
> 
> My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


What was her take on lying to you about being a virgin, did she see anything wrong with that? I personally would see nothing wrong either talking to this guy if there wasn't such a big secret, it's the secret that makes it seem wrong, it just continues the disrespect. Then again this guy probably didn't know it was a secret.

The problem is SO MUCH worse then 45 mins talking to an ex-boyfriend.

What made you press her about the whole sex thing anyway? Was something said to him that let you know she wasn't telling the truth? Did you have doubts before that? How about your wedding night did she act like this was all new to her?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hinterdir said:


> Well, of course, that was the entire point of the thread...to help everyone realized how life used to work, once upon a time, in Openminded's view.
> OP may not have any idea how to cope with being lied to and duped into marriage and having his choice take away but at least we get the feminist take on how abused women are by "society".


Right, and SOME "feminist" take on how that excuses their abuse of others. Men made her do it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> As I said, I would not trust a guy who wanted me to be exclusive to him but wanted to avoid sex. And it's ok if a guy chooses not to date a woman because she wants to wait until marriage. She can find someone else who agrees with her timeline.


That is not what this is about though. You want to be able to make an informed choice, just like OP did. His wife deprived him of that. That is where the problem is. Take sex out of it. It's about consent.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Openminded said:


> My response may not address your point because I don’t read your posts.


Ah, so your name is ironic then.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Openminded said:


> In the past, males didn’t have to hide their past experiences but females often felt they had to — especially true for those who were pressured into sex by previous boyfriends. Why? Shame and fear. There are plenty of women of my generation who, when asked long ago about their experience, lied and will take their secrets to the grave because they are still afraid to face the consequences. Maybe counseling could help both of you deal with those past lies.


And what she did which was have sex with a couple of men when she was young and dating is the norm. personally I think it's crazy to get this worked up about it. but then I confess I think it's crazy to expect someone to be a virgin when you marry them so we are just not at all on the same page. I think it would be ridiculous to throw away a 30 year marriage over this. I'm not even saying her having sex was a mistake but I will agree with most others that since you all actually talked about it, you have a right to be mad about the lie, although I will never believe that anyone should be expected to confess there were prior sexual conquests to a person. I don't think that's anyone's business and don't think it should be any big deal unless you feel she has a history of lying to you because young people nearly all do something but they didn't foresee consequences of because they were young. In this case her big mistake she regrets is a lie probably more than having sex with the couple of guys she dated since that was normal.

I think whoever told you it may be OCD related may be on to something but I don't know and I agree with whoever said you should work through it in individual counseling and I would say marriage counseling except it sounds like you two have already talked it out.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Two the Point said:


> Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.
> 
> My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


Yes. We get that she didn't give a fig about her husband who she lied to about having sex with the guy who called her out of the blue.

We aren't confused on that point.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

[/QUOTE]


Two the Point said:


> Many of you have shared your opinions regarding the fact that my wife spent 45 minutes talking to her ex-boyfriend (who, by the way, was the one she lost her virginity to), who called out-of-the-blue eleven years into our marriage. Some of you have asked whether she apologized for it, or did anything to help me rebuild my trust in her.
> 
> My wife sees nothing wrong with having spoken with her ex-boyfriend. On several occasions, she said that the thought that of anything being wrong with it never even crossed her mind because, by the time they broke up, they saw each other more as friends than lovers. So, to her, the conversation was nothing more than simply catching up with a friend she hadn't seen in several years.


Due to fact she made such a gross violation to lie and hide the fact from you all these years. Then to take a call like this from him. 
The proper and respectable action is for her to block this guy especially and the others she lied about in such a deceptive manner and to never have/allow contact/block them by phone or any other media. To decieve and lie to you all these years and then to take this fishing call from him shows serious moral terpitude. I would not trust her to go to a class reunion alone. In your instance i dont know if i would allow her to attend a reunion. 

Again how did he have her phone #??

What she did is morally grounds for divorce in the Bible. To lie about virginity before marriage is considered sexually immoral behavior.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Interesting to look at it this way- if her narrative was that nothing like sex ever happened... with 3 guys or more... then how could she take a phone call from someone who didn’t exist?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> I’m still wondering if you had a DIRECT AND UPFRONT CONVERSATION ABOUT HER STATUS......while you were dating.
> 
> Did you or didn’t you?


He had said that he was waiting for marriage to have sex and she replied she was also.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

OP,
it is water under the bridge now but you played your cards too soon.
You let her know you were waiting until marriage and gave her incentive to lie.
Lots of women will lie...some on here have, husbands still do not know.
You should have said something like...."How old were you when you had sex for the first time?"...implying you have had sex already and you are assuming she has roo.
She will probably still lie but not about virginity, she would say 21 when it was really 16. Then you can say I am a virgin waiting for marriage.
It would take a brave girl to say I still haven't had sex at all I am going to have it only with my husband.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

So, while you're going on ad nauseam about her (and women in general) lying, your thought is that he should have flushed out her initial lie by lying to her?

That's brilliant. And not at all surprising.



hinterdir said:


> OP,
> it is water under the bridge now but you played your cards too soon.
> You let her know you were waiting until marriage and gave her incentive to lie.
> Lots of women will lie...some on here have, husbands still do not know.
> ...


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Divinely Favored said:


> He had said that he was waiting for marriage to have sex and she replied she was also.


I went back and read the intro again. I did indeed miss a couple details. Perhaps I’m wrong but my intuition says they never had that direct and open conversation and he is “filling in the blanks” for her. Otherwise I agree a lie isn’t right.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

minimalME said:


> So, while you're going on ad nauseam about her (and women in general) lying, your thought is that he should have flushed out her initial lie by lying to her?
> 
> That's brilliant. And not at all surprising.


Yes,100%.
As a test, of course.
The truth is told afterwards but as a test 100% ok.
Where was the lie though
Asking a question is a lie?
you make nosense.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And what she did which was have sex with a couple of men when she was young and dating is the norm. personally I think it's crazy to get this worked up about it. but then I confess I think it's crazy to expect someone to be a virgin when you marry them so we are just not at all on the same page. I think it would be ridiculous to throw away a 30 year marriage over this. I'm not even saying her having sex was a mistake but I will agree with most others that since you all actually talked about it, you have a right to be mad about the lie, although I will never believe that anyone should be expected to confess there were prior sexual conquests to a person. I don't think that's anyone's business and don't think it should be any big deal unless you feel she has a history of lying to you because young people nearly all do something but they didn't foresee consequences of because they were young. In this case her big mistake she regrets is a lie probably more than having sex with the couple of guys she dated since that was normal.
> 
> I think whoever told you it may be OCD related may be on to something but I don't know and I agree with whoever said you should work through it in individual counseling and I would say marriage counseling except it sounds like you two have already talked it out.


Think about something that IS VERY important to you about the mate you choose, and then think about how you would feel if the person you choose lied to you about it for 10 years so that you would pick them. That is what this is about, it's not about sex, frankly it could be anything. It's only because it's about sex and admittedly women are held to a double standard when it comes to sexual history in general that this is often dismissed like your post does. But again in this case this is not a person who expected his wife to have a different history that he did, this is about a lifestyle choice that he she decided to lie about. A very important part of who he is.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Think about something that IS VERY important to you about the mate you choose, and then think about how you would feel if the person you choose lied to you about it for 10 years so that you would pick them. That is what this is about, it's not about sex, frankly it could be anything. It's only because it's about sex and admittedly women are held to a double standard when it comes to sexual history in general that this is often dismissed like your post does. But again in this case this is not a person who expected his wife to have a different history that he did, this is about a lifestyle choice that he she decided to lie about. A very important part of who he is.


Agreed. It could be they havent told their spouse that they have committed a serious crime and been in jail. Or they they have a child or children. Or have been married before when they said they had never been married. Many things like this are very important to tell your partner before you marry. Being deceptive and telling lies starts the marriage on very rocky foundations.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> And what she did which was have sex with a couple of men when she was young and dating is the norm. personally I think it's crazy to get this worked up about it. but then I confess I think it's crazy to expect someone to be a virgin when you marry them so we are just not at all on the same page. I think it would be ridiculous to throw away a 30 year marriage over this. I'm not even saying her having sex was a mistake but I will agree with most others that since you all actually talked about it, you have a right to be mad about the lie, although I will never believe that anyone should be expected to confess there were prior sexual conquests to a person. I don't think that's anyone's business and don't think it should be any big deal unless you feel she has a history of lying to you because young people nearly all do something but they didn't foresee consequences of because they were young. In this case her big mistake she regrets is a lie probably more than having sex with the couple of guys she dated since that was normal.
> 
> I think whoever told you it may be OCD related may be on to something but I don't know and I agree with whoever said you should work through it in individual counseling and I would say marriage counseling except it sounds like you two have already talked it out.


THink of something that is very important to you that would mean you didnt marry somene you were dating. Something that for you is a complete no no in a partner. Then imagine they lied about it for many years, and you then found out. I get that you dont understand the importance for many of marrying someone who shares the same sexual ideals and standards as you in this case, no sex outside marriage, but I am sure you can imagine other senarios that would cause the same hurt and shock in you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

What I thought of was I love animals and would always want pets. So if I asked them if they liked dogs and they said yes and then married me, but then I found out they were allergic to dogs and would want to get rid of mine and not get any more, I would divorce them or just not marry them -- but if it had never been a problem for 30 years, not an issue, as is the case here, and then they suddenly told me 30 years in, Hey, I'm allergic to dogs, I wouldn't divorce them. I would have expected they had dealt with it by then. 

The other thing that puzzles me -- and I may be making false assumptions here, but the only young people I've known who wanted to be virgins when they marry, it was for religious reasons. And I can't speak to every religion, but I'll go out on a limb and say most religions promote forgiveness pretty heavily, to put it mildly. 

So I'm seeing some red flags here and some reasoning flaws and some imbalance in priorities.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What I thought of was I love animals and would always want pets. So if I asked them if they liked dogs and they said yes and then married me, but then I found out they were allergic to dogs and would want to get rid of mine and not get any more, I would divorce them or just not marry them -- but if it had never been a problem for 30 years, not an issue, as is the case here, and then they suddenly told me 30 years in, Hey, I'm allergic to dogs, I wouldn't divorce them. I would have expected they had dealt with it by then.
> 
> The other thing that puzzles me -- and I may be making false assumptions here, but the only young people I've known who wanted to be virgins when they marry, it was for religious reasons. And I can't speak to every religion, *but I'll go out on a limb and say most religions promote forgiveness pretty heavily, to put it mildly. *
> 
> So I'm seeing some red flags here and some reasoning flaws and some imbalance in priorities.


I can't speak for "most" religions but for Christianity, forgiveness comes after confession. And that confession is not just about saying you did something; the process appears to be a part of the very Christian principle of acquiring empathy for those around you. From what we've read, I don't believe his wife has shown empathy. Confession and forgiveness is not met by saying "OK, this is what I did, can we move on now?"

The flip side is that you need to be willing to help someone understand and become empathetic, and being judgmental about what went on, and goes on, stands in the way of that happening. Often this is because the person is already in a situation where they're not wanting to judge themselves; they know what they did was wrong but they chose to not think about it, to put it away, because it makes them feel badly.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well, confession is only in Catholicism. But he did say she and he have talked it through and she feels horrible and remorseful, so I think if he can't forgive this after what he says has been a good marriage, it's as much his problem as hers, and he himself says it may be related to OCD and if that is the root of why he wanted a virgin, then that makes perfect sense, but that's still his issue to work out as much as hers if it originated from OCD and he hasn't made an effort to treat that. Because it is treatable. Certainly, he can still be hurt, etc., but 30 years is a long marriage to make this one thing such an issue that it outweighs 30 years of love and family and partnership, IMO. I mean, I if it originated in OCD and not religion, then maybe this is all about him thinking she's impure and dirty and germy, for all I know. If it's rooted in religion, then I think forgiveness is the right path. If it's a combination of the two (one validating the other as is often the case), then he needs to work on it in individual counseling.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What I thought of was I love animals and would always want pets. So if I asked them if they liked dogs and they said yes and then married me, but then I found out they were allergic to dogs and would want to get rid of mine and not get any more, I would divorce them or just not marry them -- but if it had never been a problem for 30 years, not an issue, as is the case here, and then they suddenly told me 30 years in, Hey, I'm allergic to dogs, I wouldn't divorce them. I would have expected they had dealt with it by then.
> 
> The other thing that puzzles me -- and I may be making false assumptions here, but the only young people I've known who wanted to be virgins when they marry, it was for religious reasons. And I can't speak to every religion, but I'll go out on a limb and say most religions promote forgiveness pretty heavily, to put it mildly.
> 
> So I'm seeing some red flags here and some reasoning flaws and some imbalance in priorities.


It was 10 years in, and sounds like it has been and ongoing problem, enough that he is posting here. This also doesn't mean they can't have some good aspects of their marriage too, but if he is still suffering 20 years later doesn't sound like a great marriage to me.

By your example you can always divorce and get a pet or even get a different pet then. In this situation he wanted a marriage where they were there only sex partners. She made it seem like this would be the case but it was a lie, therefore robbing him of a chance at this. Once you lose your virginity it's gone for good, he will never have that with anyone. She robbed him of the opportunity to have the marriage he wanted. There is no going back. So it's not the same, this is a personal sexual violation.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

My opinion is he's going to be miserable whether he stays with her or leaves, but that that is kind of his personal issue. Nothing is going to make him happy here because his expectations are out of the norm, so he needs individual counseling. He may already be in it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

sokillme said:


> It was 10 years in, and sounds like it has been and ongoing problem, enough that he is posting here. This also doesn't mean they can't have some good aspects of their marriage too, but if he is still suffering 20 years later doesn't sound like a great marriage to me.
> 
> By your example you can always divorce and get a pet or get a pet then. *In this situation he wanted a marriage where they were there only sex partners. * She made it seem like this would be the case but it was a lie, therefore robbing him of a chance at this. Once you lose your virginity it's gone for good, he will never have that with anyone. She robbed him of the opportunity to have the marriage he wanted. There is no going back. So it's not the same, this is a personal sexual violation.


No, it's potentially worse than that. We don't know if that might have been an issue which, if discussed at the time, could have been something dealt with, something that might not have destroyed the relationship but rather helped to define it, create conversations about boundaries and what it means to be married and how we learn from our past. She could have come clean at any time prior to actually becoming married and they might still have married and if they had, they would probably be in a much better place today.

It didn't matter to me that my wife hadn't had prior sex partners or not, until it mattered because she made it such a big part of her story that she had been saving herself, and not been in at least one very specific situation I had asked about and she outright lied. In my wife's case, and in OP's wife's case, the partner fell in love with someone whose narrative was false. That does not mean either of us would have not fallen in love and married had the narrative been true. To make that leap is dangerous because it actually minimizes the damage done. The greatest damage is the loss of what might have been, and a long term relationship may very well have sprung from knowing the truth about our partner and being proud of what he or she had come through and made the choice of us, whatever it was we had to offer, as being more special than what had come before.

BUT I cannot speak for OP!!! OP may have drawn a line in the sand and demanded that his future spouse be a virgin. That wasn't me. I wasn't; I'd had one prior partner. That experience helped shape and define what I was looking for in marriage. Ironic to think the same may have been the case with OP's wife back then, although, a 7 year relationship, no sex, strains credibility for most.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I go to the car dealership and tell him I want to buy a Chevy, because Ford's are crap, but he switches the badges on my car and sells me a Ford.

10 years later, I discover I'm driving a Ford, but since it's been reliable, I decide to hang on to it and drive it 'til the wheels fall off, which should happen Any Day Now. After 30 years, it's still driving just fine. I've taken several cross country trips, fooled around in the back seat, gotten to work day in and day out.

I can then say after those 30 years that I'm still so f'ing pissed at that dealer for pulling a fast one on me. It eats at me daily, poisoning my every thought whenever I stick my key in the ignition. Or, I could reevaluate my situation, in the now, after 30 years of good service, and admit that just maybe that thing I thought was so important at the time was perhaps more my prejudice than objective reality.

Of course, I could also take that piece of **** Ford outside, douse it in gasoline, and set it on fire, just out of spite. To prove, you know, that I was right.

I'm not here OP to tell you that you're wrong for feeling the way you do. That's not my place. I will say that something that has poisoned you for this long needs a resolution. A resolution that only you can give yourself. It's not a gift that anyone else can give you. Do you REALLY think it's healthy to have been holding on to this much resentment for this long? Is it good for you? Your spouse? Your marriage?

30 years in, the statute of limitations on the blame game have run out. If you are unhappy, it is by your own choice now. You have had ample opportunity to remove yourself from this marriage, but you seem to want to wallow in asking questions about who was in the wrong for things that happened 20 or 30 years ago. 

Time to **** or get off the pot.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> My opinion is he's going to be miserable whether he stays with her or leaves, but that that is kind of his personal issue. Nothing is going to make him happy here because his expectations are out of the norm, so he needs individual counseling. He may already be in it.


His expectations may be out of the norm, especially today, but there are still a lot of people who wait for marriage till they have sex. For those people sex is a very important act, and its not to be taken lightly or treated casually.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> His expectations may be out of the norm, especially today, but there are still a lot of people who wait for marriage till they have sex. For those people sex is a very important act, and its not to be taken lightly or treated casually.


So important, in fact, that I take it so seriously that I would never again wait for marriage, as I did the first time, to discover if we were sexually compatible.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DownByTheRiver said:


> What I thought of was I love animals and would always want pets. So if I asked them if they liked dogs and they said yes and then married me, but then I found out they were allergic to dogs and would want to get rid of mine and not get any more, I would divorce them or just not marry them -- but if it had never been a problem for 30 years, not an issue, as is the case here, and then they suddenly told me 30 years in, Hey, I'm allergic to dogs, I wouldn't divorce them. I would have expected they had dealt with it by then.
> 
> The other thing that puzzles me -- and I may be making false assumptions here, but the only young people I've known who wanted to be virgins when they marry, it was for religious reasons. And I can't speak to every religion, but I'll go out on a limb and say most religions promote forgiveness pretty heavily, to put it mildly.
> 
> So I'm seeing some red flags here and some reasoning flaws and some imbalance in priorities.


I also love pets but I don't see that as comparable to be honest. Say a man you were with had raped someone before you met and gone to jail but didnt tell you. How would you feel if you found out many years later even if he said he wouldnt do it again and had changed? 

As I see it its the living a lie that has hurt him. The deception from her all those years, and not haing the marriage he thought he had. Its as if he needs to grieve for what he thought the marriage was. Grieve for the fact that the women he loves deceived him about something so important.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Cletus said:


> So important, in fact, that I take it so seriously that I would never again wait for marriage, as I did the first time, to discover if we were sexually compatible.


Yet we see here countless times people from marriages where there are long term and serious sexual problems and they almost all lived together for some time before they married. You cant gurantee anything by having sex before you marry.
A lady I know said to me when my now husband and I were dating that we should live together first to see if we were compatable. She isnt a Christisn BTW. I said no thats not happening, I knew we were compatable.
Sex for those who wait is the sealing of the marriage covenant. Its very important.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I would definitely do a background check before getting in too deep with anybody. I get that it's not completely comparable, but I think even the OP knows that and being this focused on that isn't healthy just by the wording of his title. I mean, sounds like she may be having to cope with him having OCD and that certainly isn't any walk in the park. 

It's not like she cheated on him. He needs to get past it and forgive her and if he's got OCD he needs to treat it.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

being a virgin means not having PIV sex.

i assume the OP was open to kissing and heavy petting.

i could wait for marriage to get PIV. however a dating a woman that 
was not enthusiastic to kiss and pet would be a red flag that could
not be ignored. 

we are left to guess about the OP and his wife's position what it means
to wait till marriage for sex.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

OP, it appears that your goal is to get past this and have a happy marriage with your wife and a genuine connection that isn't overshadowed by negative feelings (which you labelled jealousy, but include betrayal, grief and so I'll just say they are 'negative'). You also appear to be looking for people to tell you what your wife can do to help you get past it. I feel like you definitely had a right to those negative feelings, and it seems your wife does too and feels tremendous guilt and pain about causing those feelings. The thing is that you need to start accepting the responsibility for your own personal growth to get past them now. You have been stuck in those feelings for decades. Maybe it's time to get out of your own head. IMO, it's time you worked on _you_. Maybe the study of existentialism might be helpful. 

On the note that you do not appear to take responsibility for your life, you choose to ask people not to talk to you about the requirement you had of being a virgin before marriage. I see nothing wrong with that. I see though that you haven't taken responsibility for leading your partner to feel that she could not be her authentic self with you, and so she lied (not making excuses for her, she has to take responsibility for her own choices as well). I feel like you should be admired for living authentically to your values and what you felt could help you be a better human being (I assume), but not for imposing this on the people around you. In your attempt to impose your choices on another, you have stripped that individual of the freedom to be accepted without judgement (and still is not accepted without judgement). All those years that person did not feel free to be her authentic self with you was due to your own choices, and I don't think you've accepted responsibility for that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AliceA said:


> OP, it appears that your goal is to get past this and have a happy marriage with your wife and a genuine connection that isn't overshadowed by negative feelings (which you labelled jealousy, but include betrayal, grief and so I'll just say they are 'negative'). You also appear to be looking for people to tell you what your wife can do to help you get past it. I feel like you definitely had a right to those negative feelings, and it seems your wife does too and feels tremendous guilt and pain about causing those feelings. The thing is that you need to start accepting the responsibility for your own personal growth to get past them now. You have been stuck in those feelings for decades. Maybe it's time to get out of your own head. IMO, it's time you worked on _you_. Maybe the study of existentialism might be helpful.
> 
> On the note that you do not appear to take responsibility for your life, you choose to ask people not to talk to you about the requirement you had of being a virgin before marriage. I see nothing wrong with that. I see though that you haven't taken responsibility for leading your partner to feel that she could not be her authentic self with you, and so she lied (not making excuses for her, she has to take responsibility for her own choices as well). I feel like you should be admired for living authentically to your values and what you felt could help you be a better human being (I assume), but not for imposing this on the people around you. In your attempt to impose your choices on another, you have stripped that individual of the freedom to be accepted without judgement (and still is not accepted without judgement). All those years that person did not feel free to be her authentic self with you was due to your own choices, and I don't think you've accepted responsibility for that.


Am I reading this right are you actually saying it's his fault that she lied? Really?

I don't want to put words in your mouth but is sure sounds like you are saying he is responsible for creating the conditions where she lied. Please tell me I am wrong, if not this is the same logic that blames the women who is raped for wearing the short skirt. Gross.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Am I reading this right are you actually saying it's his fault that she lied? Really?
> 
> I don't want to put words in your mouth but is sure sounds like you are saying he is responsible for creating the conditions where she lied. Please tell me I am wrong, if not this is the same logic that blames the women who is raped for wearing the short skirt. Gross.


No, I'm saying he is not taking responsibility for the choices he has made in life, which were to impose his values on another human being. We can accept people have their own path and decide to be with that person based on who they are (which is created through their life experiences, and he chose her and whether he likes it or not, who she is was made up of all her life experiences, regardless of which ones he knew about and which ones he didn't), or we can decide that their path must have followed a certain route, thinking that that route is the only way to have become a person they would value. He decided he loved the person she was, thinking it was due to the route he had decided she must take to be that person, instead of realising he loved the person she was, and that person was who she was due to having taken a route he decided wasn't acceptable. She is still the same person. 

I guess this may be losing something in translation, and I probably can't help some of that as I have no control over how other's perceive their world. We all have to accept responsibility for our own lives and if we feel it's always happening _to us_, we will feel powerless to achieve what we want to achieve.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Most people just see her lie and think she's a horrible person. I see there might be a bit more to it than that.

Her life experiences led her to want to be valued as a person first. I think it was important to her not to be treated as a sexual object. I think she felt she found that because her partner told her his values and they seemed to align with how she wanted to experience life, as a woman loved for her inner self, committed to and accepted first and foremost as a person. Then as she experienced his judgement for the path she had taken in her life to get to the person she was, she feared rejection, thinking that she would lose this person who valued her inner self if he knew about her path. He would judge her based on her sexual experiences and reject her. Ultimately she chose to lie instead of face that rejection, not realising that in rejecting her because of her having had sex in the past, he would've been treating her as a sexual object, just like all the other men in her past.

She should've been brave and told the truth, and if he so rejected her, realised that he did not value her as a person first and foremost. There would've been many men who had the values she was looking for who would not have judged and rejected her for her path. Now she is living every day with guilt and shame, judged for her past and for lying. Never to feel completely accepted and loved. To me, she has definitely paid the price for not having the courage to stand up for herself and believe that she had deserved to be loved regardless of which path she took to become the person she is.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AliceA said:


> No, I'm saying he is not taking responsibility for the choices he has made in life, which were to impose his values on another human being. We can accept people have their own path and decide to be with that person based on who they are (which is created through their life experiences, and he chose her and whether he likes it or not, who she is was made up of all her life experiences, regardless of which ones he knew about and which ones he didn't), or we can decide that their path must have followed a certain route, thinking that that route is the only way to have become a person they would value. He decided he loved the person she was, thinking it was due to the route he had decided she must take to be that person, instead of realising he loved the person she was, and that person was who she was due to having taken a route he decided wasn't acceptable. She is still the same person.
> 
> I guess this may be losing something in translation, and I probably can't help some of that as I have no control over how other's perceive their world. We all have to accept responsibility for our own lives and if we feel it's always happening _to us_, we will feel powerless to achieve what we want to achieve.


He didn't impose anything, he presented his values and she lied to make him believe she had the same ones. 

"Here are my values if you want to be with me" = passive voice (she could have easily said no we don't align)
"Lie to line up with those values" = assertive, the lie means she took control and had ownership if this part of the relationship. The lie itself the assertive action.

He didn't love the women she was he loved the women she pretended to be, now maybe he loves the women now but she presented a false picture of herself. 

So following your logic there is no such thing as money fraud because people are just choosing to give money to the thieves.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AliceA said:


> Most people just see her lie and think she's a horrible person. I see there might be a bit more to it than that.
> 
> Her life experiences led her to want to be valued as a person first. I think it was important to her not to be treated as a sexual object. I think she felt she found that because her partner told her his values and they seemed to align with how she wanted to experience life, as a woman loved for her inner self, committed to and accepted first and foremost as a person. Then as she experienced his judgement for the path she had taken in her life to get to the person she was, she feared rejection, thinking that she would lose this person who valued her inner self if he knew about her path. He would judge her based on her sexual experiences and reject her. Ultimately she chose to lie instead of face that rejection, not realising that in rejecting her because of her having had sex in the past, he would've been treating her as a sexual object, just like all the other men in her past.
> 
> She should've been brave and told the truth, and if he so rejected her, realised that he did not value her as a person first and foremost. There would've been many men who had the values she was looking for who would not have judged and rejected her for her path. Now she is living every day with guilt and shame, judged for her past and for lying. Never to feel completely accepted and loved. To me, she has definitely paid the price for not having the courage to stand up for herself and believe that she had deserved to be loved regardless of which path she took to become the person she is.


Your missing one crucial part. Her values didn't align exactly because he valued honesty and authenticity she really didn't at least not enough to tell him the truth. 

Why do you see his desire to marry someone who feels the same way about sex as he did, as judgment? It's a preference, he never once said everyone has to agree. All he said if if you want to be married with me our values have to align. I have to be honest I feel like a lot of push back on this issue is that people don't like the idea that there are people who have different values then they have about sex.

Let me ask you this, lets say a strong third wave feminist American women meets a guy and he seems great, a gentleman. He has a good job, good with kids. They talk about politics but he says he is really not that interested, but he believes everyone should have the right to get ahead what not. She doesn't press it because everything else is really good. They get married and have a great relationship, until one day they get to talking about politics and she finds out that he is died in the wool conservative. So much so that he didn't vote for Obama and he actually voted for Trump. Is she judging him if she has a problem with that? Or should she just "value him as a person first and foremost?" After all approximately half the people who voted in the last election voted for Trump. If his politics is too much for her is she imposing her values on him?

The truth is OP didn't judge her at all, he had a lifestyle preference like any other. It's only because this is about sex that all of the sudden people start with idea he is judging her. If you make it about politics then it's much easier to understands. Everyone has a right to have preferences about the kinds of experiences that they want in life and in their marriage especially. And no one should judge THEM for that. Some people want to marry people who are atheist, some people are a part of their religion. Some politically left wing some right. And YES some people want their one and only sexual experience to be with their spouse. No one should put nefarious motives behind that or judge them for that.

Finally this man didn't reject her, I mean you are even saying he didn't love her, where are you getting that, he suffered with a great loss but continued to love and be married to her for 20 years. Rejecting her would have been divorcing her.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

sokillme said:


> He didn't impose anything, he presented his values and she lied to make him believe she had the same ones.
> 
> "Here are my values if you want to be with me" = passive voice (she could have easily said no we don't align)
> "Lie to line up with those values" = assertive, the lie means she took control and had ownership if this part of the relationship. The lie itself the assertive action.
> ...


I guess we don't really know how either of them acted or perceived the actions of the other. I'm guessing she perceived judgement of others for having a sexual relationship out of wedlock so didn't admit to her own, but there's no way to know.

I would think that in him expressing his values, she took from it what was congruent with her own values and how she wanted to be treated. Regardless of her experiences, she still had the same values, and was still the same person, as he hasn't stated she's a different person to the one he believed except for the fact that she lied about her experiences of sex. He hasn't said she's cheated or done other things that aren't consistent with the person she first portrayed herself to be. I don't believe that a person who has experienced sex cannot have the same values about sex and commitment as someone who has refused sex.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Your missing one crucial part. Her values didn't align exactly because he valued honesty and authenticity she really didn't at least not enough to tell him the truth.
> 
> Why do you see his desire to marry someone who feels the same way about sex as he did, as judgment? It's a preference, he never once said everyone has to agree. All he said if if you want to be married with me our values have to align. I have to be honest I feel like a lot of push back on this issue is that people don't like the idea that there are people who have different values then they have about sex.
> 
> ...


You say he hasn't rejected her, but how has he accepted her? Simply being present doesn't count imo.

As for the values, it's not about his values, which she accepted and agreed with and aren't in question, it was his judgement of her past experiences which I feel aren't true to the core of the values he espouses. I don't see how you can on one hand say that you feel it's important for you to commit to a person before you have sex with them without having some fundamental reason behind that statement. What are the real values behind it that the person is trying to live by? Because if it's all about sex itself, that seems to be opposite to the whole point of not having sex...


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Ford/Chevy??? Its more like a young woman marrying the man she loved and her religious views are that you can not have been married prior. He stated it was a new experience for him and 10 yrs later she finds out he is actually 3x divorced because one of his ex-wives called up for a 45 min chat to catch up. It was only new with her. But he really loved her so he lied as he really wanted to be married to wife #4.
Or for her to find out he was in a long term homosexual relationship before her ant the guy calling was not just one of his ol friends from HS.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

AliceA said:


> What are the real values behind it that the person is trying to live by? Because if it's all about sex itself, that seems to be opposite to the whole point of not having sex...


The "whole point" has two tenets.

1) by remaining a virgin until marriage, a person proves him/herself able to remain faithful to the marriage. Being married by the OP's standards is somewhat like finding out your doctor never went to medical school.

2) it is indeed about sex. People who have no sexual experience are compared quite unfavorably by their experienced spouses to past sexual partners. It creates a very unfair environment in which it is quite difficult to pursue mutual fulfillment.

If I were the OP, I would be very much affected by the way his wife chose to hide her true status from him, therefore disallowing him the choice he wished to make for his life. From that point forward, any rejection I felt from my wife would create feelings of inadequacy in me.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

TJW said:


> The "whole point" has two tenets.
> 
> 1) by remaining a virgin until marriage, a person proves him/herself able to remain faithful to the marriage. Being married by the OP's standards is somewhat like finding out your doctor never went to medical school.
> 
> ...


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

I believe he said she saw that he was different then any other guy she dated. The difference being he wanted to wait. She knew that he wanted the same and lied about her past. He wasn’t judging her, she judged herself and decided to lie about her past because she didn’t want to lose him. She took something from him that he could never get back. Finding someone wanting like he was.

For those that said he fell in love with her because of all of her life experiences, ********. He fell in love with a lie, she hid the fact that she slept with others before hand. She turned herself into a different person so she wouldn’t lose him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

AliceA said:


> You say he hasn't rejected her, but how has he accepted her? Simply being present doesn't count imo.
> 
> As for the values, it's not about his values, which she accepted and agreed with and aren't in question, it was his judgement of her past experiences which I feel aren't true to the core of the values he espouses. I don't see how you can on one hand say that you feel it's important for you to commit to a person before you have sex with them without having some fundamental reason behind that statement. What are the real values behind it that the person is trying to live by? Because if it's all about sex itself, that seems to be opposite to the whole point of not having sex...


Well assuming he did this for religious reasons then his value is that sex is a sacred act that is sanctified by God very much like the marriage itself, actually they go hand in hand. So this is not just (I don't want to compete with her memories). Now it can also be I want it to be special, and unique to just us, like a special trip that you might go to, or a restaurant. To people like this, sex is a precious and deeply personal inmate act, it is not something to be shared with anyone else, which is why they sacrifice and do not partake in what could be a pleasurable experience with others, but wait until they are married. 

Besides that in this marriage their sexual experience is very much unbalanced now. No for most people that is a common issue in marriage, and it does cause problems. Granting I think if that is the case you have to accept it and let it go. Normally you have an idea about this before you marry, or if you don't ask it's a little late after you marry. But in this case he purposely tried to marry someone where there would be that balance, and she defrauded him. 

I think if you don't feel this way about sex, if it's just something you do like any other activity then it's hard to understand this. But the betrayal is a lot closer to finding out that the person you married and said they wanted children really doesn't and just said that to marry you, with one clear difference. You can always remarry. He will never get the chance to have the unique intimacy of being his and his wife's one and only, and he put a lot of time and effort to have just that.

Now I agree he needs to move on if he is going to stay married to her or even if he isn't. But there is no way this is not going to be a point of pain for him. It is a deeply personal loss, that she caused. I really think it is a sexual violation, because she had sex with him under false pretenses, essentially without his true consent. If he knew the truth it is doubtful he would have married her and made her his first. Even so it would be his choice, he didn't get that choice. Frankly a big part of the bases for his commitment to the marriage was made without his true consent. Saying to this guy, he needs to get over it is not really understanding the magnitude of the betrayal.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldtruck said:


> being a virgin means not having PIV sex.
> 
> i assume the OP was open to kissing and heavy petting.
> 
> ...


We dont know what he did or didnt do before marriage. Some dont do anything sexual because of the temptation to go further. 
.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Well assuming he did this for religious reasons then his value is that sex is a sacred act that is sanctified by God very much like the marriage itself, actually they go hand in hand. So this is not just (I don't want to compete with her memories). Now it can also be I want it to be special, and unique to just us, like a special trip that you might go to, or a restaurant. To people like this, sex is a precious and deeply personal inmate act, it is not something to be shared with anyone else, which is why they sacrifice and do not partake in what could be a pleasurable experience with others, but wait until they are married.
> 
> Besides that in this marriage their sexual experience is very much unbalanced now. No for most people that is a common issue in marriage, and it does cause problems. Granting I think if that is the case you have to accept it and let it go. Normally you have an idea about this before you marry, or if you don't ask it's a little late after you marry. But in this case he purposely tried to marry someone where there would be that balance, and she defrauded him.
> 
> ...


Very well and clearly explained


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

AliceA said:


> Most people just see her lie and think she's a horrible person. I see there might be a bit more to it than that.
> 
> Her life experiences led her to want to be valued as a person first. I think it was important to her not to be treated as a sexual object. I think she felt she found that because her partner told her his values and they seemed to align with how she wanted to experience life, as a woman loved for her inner self, committed to and accepted first and foremost as a person. Then as she experienced his judgement for the path she had taken in her life to get to the person she was, she feared rejection, thinking that she would lose this person who valued her inner self if he knew about her path. He would judge her based on her sexual experiences and reject her. Ultimately she chose to lie instead of face that rejection, not realising that in rejecting her because of her having had sex in the past, he would've been treating her as a sexual object, just like all the other men in her past.
> 
> She should've been brave and told the truth, and if he so rejected her, realised that he did not value her as a person first and foremost. There would've been many men who had the values she was looking for who would not have judged and rejected her for her path. Now she is living every day with guilt and shame, judged for her past and for lying. Never to feel completely accepted and loved. To me, she has definitely paid the price for not having the courage to stand up for herself and believe that she had deserved to be loved regardless of which path she took to become the person she is.


No one has said she is a horrible person at all, but she did marry a man under false pretenses and lied about something that for him and many others was and is very important. 
I think you are desperately trying to find another reason behind what she did, but the fact is she lied and deceived him for many years, knowing that he had waited himself and wanted to marry someone who saw sex in the same way he did. The whole marriage was based on lies and deception. I can perfectly well understand his struggle. For me, the lying and deception would make me question the whole marriage and I would sturuggle to trust them. 
Maybe if she had owned up in the first year or so after the marriage things would be different, but if that ex hadnt phoned up, she would still be deceiving him now. I have no idea how she could have lied for so long, I could never keep something like that from my husband.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

"Get over it" can mean many things, from "get out" to "forgive".

I say he needs to get over it. It doesn't matter by what avenue he does it. He doesn't have to stay married. He doesn't _have _to do anything, if he would like to continue to be tortured by this problem for the rest of his life. None of us can tell him what he should value, but just about everyone can agree that the current situation is untenable for a mentally healthy spouse. 

I have no interest in focusing hard on the blame part of the equation here because it doesn't solve anything. It doesn't fix his problem. It doesn't un-ring the bell. It is too backward looking for someone who seems to have that ability in spades.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

From the information I have gleaned from OP, this is what I have come up with.

OP's wife:
-Was promiscuous prior to marriage, having had sex with several partners;
-Had a long term sexual relationship with a prior BF that she failed to disclose to her husband;
-Did not share the same morals and values as her husband, but pretended she did;
-Defrauded him and tricked him into a marriage under false pretenses;
-Hid her deception and lies for eleven years;
-Demonstrated her loose boundaries by having an extended phone conversation with the same ex-boyfriend who knew her sexually before the OP;
- Only came clean about her premarital sexual activities when she was backed intop a corner by OP;
-Demonstrates her lack of remorse by getting upset when OP triggers and brings up her many crimes against him and the marriage, wishing he would just drop it;
-Despite her lack of boundaries, there is no evidence she has ever cheated on him during the marriage. 

OP: 
-Allowed his wife to continue with the marriage with little or no consequencs for her lying and deception;
-For the past 19 years has rug-swept the issue and let her offenses slide for the sake of preserving the marriage and the status quo;
-Idolizes his wife and keeps her up on a pedestal as a wonderful wife, mother and partner. 
-He loves her, that much is clear. 

So what can we infer from all this? Hmm?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> So what can we infer from all this? Hmm?


Well, don't keep us in suspense!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> I really think it is a sexual violation, because she had sex with him under false pretenses, essentially without his true consent. If he knew the truth it is doubtful he would have married her and made her his first. Even so it would be his choice, he didn't get that choice. Frankly a big part of the bases for his commitment to the marriage was made without his true consent. Saying to this guy, he needs to get over it is not really understanding the magnitude of the betrayal.


That is a great point, and an angle I had never thought of.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cletus said:


> "Get over it" can mean many things, from "get out" to "forgive".
> 
> I say he needs to get over it. It doesn't matter by what avenue he does it. He doesn't have to stay married. He doesn't _have _to do anything, if he would like to continue to be tortured by this problem for the rest of his life. None of us can tell him what he should value, but just about everyone can agree that the current situation is untenable for a mentally healthy spouse.
> 
> I have no interest in focusing hard on the blame part of the equation here because it doesn't solve anything. It doesn't fix his problem. It doesn't un-ring the bell. It is too backward looking for someone who seems to have that ability in spades.



Don't discount the trauma that this causes though. Which is why saying get over it, in the context of "well enough time has passed and this should not bother you anymore" is in my mind not understanding the true nature of what a violation this is. 

It's no surprise he struggles with this and trust issues.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Basically, OP has a wife that lied to him before marriage. She married him and kept her secret all these years. Apparently she has been a good wife for these 30 years (but remember he can be fooled and lied to by her quite easily). Her ex-boyfriend calls her and she speaks with him quite brazenly for 45 minutes. OP then gets the truth from her (30 years on when she probably feels quite safe in letting him now know the truth). Her explanation is something feeble like she was so into his beliefs that she wanted to be like him - so she lied BUT did change her beliefs!

And we ... are making excuses for her behaviour - blaming society, the church, her age at the time etc etc and trying to tell the OP to forget about it since she has been "good" for 30 years. 

And what he has come here for is advice on how to cope with the pain he is feeling after being told the truth. It is clear that he has not chosen to divorce her - he found out some time ago but is still feeling the pain which is why he thinks its retroactive jealousy.

They both need advice on this - OP needs advice on how to deal with the pain while his wife needs advice on how to help him heal with this pain - starting with NOT talking to her ex lover for 45 minutes and then, to make matters worse, not understanding why he is hurt by this!

Lets not try and confuse matters by talking about whether sex before marriage is acceptable or not or any other excuses.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Don't discount the trauma that this causes though. Which is why saying get over it, in the context of "well enough time has passed and this should not bother you anymore" is in my mind not understanding the true nature of what a violation this is.
> 
> It's no surprise he struggles with this and trust issues.


What makes resolution especially difficult is that she might have been traumatized by her past, wanting to escape it, and had, from HER perspective, successfully done so. Now the husband is traumatized for obvious reasons, and the wife's apparent lack of empathy for how he feels requires that she revisit something she doesn't want to revisit.

That's the "nicest" scenario possible, in my opinion. Unfortunately, I don't think she gets off that easily (by taking into account her own trauma), for a couple of reasons. First, that phone call. It's like, you just pick up where you left off, how are things, to someone that, far as your husband knows, didn't exist? Second, she was living with that ex for how long? 7 years I think? You've really got to play the Saint card to get someone to believe, even if both are religious, that sex wasn't a part of the relationship. 

What. Was. She. Thinking.

100% totally selfish, looking after herself, scared that, if she told him the truth, he'd leave. Isn't that the absolute worst way to start a relationship? Knowing that, if your partner knew the truth, it wouldn't work out?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Nothing here even remotely suggests this woman was "traumatized" by her sexual past. I think you are projecting issues here.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Livvie said:


> Nothing here even remotely suggests this woman was "traumatized" by her sexual past. I think you are projecting issues here.


Of course I’m projecting. Personal experience offers a possibility others might not be considering.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think the bottom line here OP is all of us agree this is not about jealousy but about trauma. You need to talk to your wife about it and you both probably need to get some counseling.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

OP, One quick question ---- the "first" BF that she spent 45 minutes talking -- is she STILL in contact with him (or any of her former partners)? Do you have access to her email/phone/social media to see if she is really as trustworthy as you thought?


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Nothing here even remotely suggests this woman was "traumatized" by her sexual past. I think you are projecting issues here.


Per the OP's dilemma, I think her being traumatized or not is pretty moot. It doesn't excuse being lied to and being tricked into this marriage.


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## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

PS OP

Virginity. 
Were you saving yourself for marriage and were you wanting to marry a virgin, as in that was part of your screening process? 
Were you just a late developer and shy and you were a virgin against your will sort of and you weren't trying to marry a virgin but thought she was one and just though it was a nice little bonus that she was one too?
I'm trying to gauge how important this was to you when dating and if it was an actual deal breaker and a goal you were after at the time.
If she told you the truth up front...that she has had sex already with other men what do you think the response would have been?
Would you have married her anyway or do you think you would have broken it off and moved on?
Once again, I'm trying to gauge what your view and sex, intimacy and marriage was at that time.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Two the Point said:


> Thank you, Divinely Favored -- What you said is an absolutely perfect description of what I'm feeling. I couldn't have said it better myself!
> 
> By now, my wife is sick and tired of discussing this. Each time we discuss it, it's very painful to her, seeing the degree to which she has hurt me. In a recent discussion, she described herself as feeling helpless and hopeless when it comes to helping me get through this.
> 
> ...


Frankly brother, I think you need to return to being a positive, strong man and never discuss, ponder, and especially NOT harass your wife over this again. She lied but per your words has been an incredible wife and mother.

Although, you SHOULD get angry and confront your wife if she ever dares talk at length with an old boyfriend (unless you’re next to her at a high school reunion or something). I think it’s very fair to be angry about that.

I know lots of GOOD women who in youth sort of fell into sexual relationships... maybe you don’t know this but young men can be relentless, pressuring, and (evil) bastards. Just because it was easy for you, doesn’t mean it is for beautiful young women. I mean, it’s a slippery slope for young women and every dude out there was pushing..

If she’s as good a catch as you say- take this to prayer and leave it with our Lord and move on and NEVER ponder or discuss it again.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Two the Point said:


> *My question is this: Do any of you suffer from retroactive jealousy? *


I don't think badly of her for having a sexual past. But her LIES and her purposeful FRAUD in pretending to be a virgin in order to be married to you are a *huge* issue.

Your question should REALLY be, _*'has anyone else swallowed their pride and chosen to stay married to a bald-faced LIAR who conned them into marriage by lying about her sexual past?"*_

*THAT'S *really the question you should be asking instead of trying to figure out how to accept it and roll over like a good dog.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I don't think badly of her for having a sexual past. But her LIES and her purposeful FRAUD in pretending to be a virgin in order to be married to you are a *huge* issue.
> 
> Your question should REALLY be, _*'has anyone else swallowed their pride and chosen to stay married to a bald-faced LIAR who conned them into marriage by lying about her sexual past?"*_
> 
> *THAT'S *really the question you should be asking instead of trying to figure out how to accept it and roll over like a good dog.


That's pretty much the issue, not the sexual past.

Now, couched more kindly, OP must decide to accept the rocky beginning and move on, or it's a breaking up offense.

One thing will expand troubles throughout the relationship which is to keep dwelling and bringing it up daily as a club to wield. 

That will break things up in the long run, anyway.

Choose!

Good luck.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

OP said that one of the reasons he fell in love with her and wanted to marry her was because she purported to be a virgin. She made him believe they shared the same values. So the lying and deception goes way back to the very roots of their relationship. She was lying to him far longer than the eleven years of their marriage. Had he known she was not a virgin, she probably would not have gotten a second date with him.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> That's pretty much the issue, not the sexual past.
> 
> Now, couched more kindly, OP must decide to accept the rocky beginning and move on, or it's a breaking up offense.
> 
> ...


I agree. He blew his chance to get out of the marriage cleanly 19 years ago when he first learned the truth. He needs to sh*t or get off the pot and leave her alone about it. He chose to stay with her, and now he needs to accept the emotional ramifications of that choice and get help to learn how to deal with the resentment. The ball has been in his court for two decades and he's just standing there dribbling.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> OP said that one of the reasons he fell in love with her and wanted to marry her was because she purported to be a virgin. She made him believe they shared the same values. So the lying and deception goes way back to the very roots of their relationship. She was lying to him far longer than the eleven years of their marriage. Had he known she was not a virgin, she probably would not have gotten a second date with him.


This is not yet clear; I don't recall OP saying he wouldn't marry her had she said up front she'd had sex previously with other guys. The lying and deception are clear, but it's not clear that he would have left when told that they shared the same values "now" (when they met) but that she'd had a different past. Look, some guys are "fixers" and maybe he would have seen that as a way to help her? Lots of different ways the scenario could have played out.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I also would like to know if the OP was shy and sexually insecure and whether he would have been too fearful to have sex with her if he knew she had had sex with someone else. but the original poster doesn't seem to have returned to the thread to answer the questions whether this is religious base or something else.


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## UndecidedinNY (Jul 11, 2013)

I understand your feelings. I would feel betrayed. She lied to you in order to get married, because you would not have been interested otherwise (and she already had at least 3 failed relationships that lasted years and included sex and the guys didn't marry her). I would feel VERY betrayed if I found out my spouse lied about their sexual history, and I'd have a hard time believing other things. 

That said, at this point, I would look at this: Has she lied about other things? How did she respond to her ex calling her to reunite at the reunion? Is your marriage and life happy now with her, and is she trustworthy?

Because of cultural clashes, there is a big dilemma for many women who grow up being taught to enjoy life and do what they want sexually, and then discovering that some men don't want to marry women with a bigger sexual history than he has, and a lot of men who will sleep with her for years with no intention of marrying her. Lots of women don't care or want get married, and lots of men don't have this restriction, but a lot do (despite feminism and equality and whatnot), and if she was tired of dating men and sleeping with them for years and it ending in nothing, and then met you but knew she would lose you if you found out she wasn't a virgin, and she wanted to get married (I'm guessing by the timelines she was in her 30s when you met?), she felt it was ok to lie. She couldn't undo her past, so lied instead. I would feel betrayed, but other people think it's no one's business, so I guess it depends on if you think it was your business since you hadn't met yet, if it was important to you that you BOTH are virgins, if she has since not been a good wife or betrayed you or kept in touch with those guys, etc. I probably would have considered ending the marriage at the point I found out if we didn't have kids yet, because I'd feel we got married under false pretense. If we had kids, I probably would have waited until they were all off to college and then decided, based on how he was since then (a good husband and no other issues would make me for forgiving). Now at 30 years, I guess you have to decide how you want to live the rest of your life, and if you want her to be part of it. 

PS I think it's really admirable that you waited  I think it definitely reduces feelings of jealousy if there is symmetry between both partners in terms of experience, and I would not have wanted to marry someone who went through women like water, but rather took his relationships more seriously. 

PPS I also don't want to get into an argument with anyone else, I'm just responding to the OP.


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## DEguy (Nov 19, 2013)

Have you considered that when you were dating, that she considered you to be “the one?” That she knew your feelings regarding sexual, and didn’t want to lose you over that? If you’ve been together for 30 years, I’d say you are quite compatible.

Yes, she lied. But, maybe she took a calculated risk to spend the rest of her life with the one she loved?

let’s also assume for a moment that you have also not always been honest about everything when it comes to your relationship. It could be something as simple as saying an outfit looks “great” when she asked you, even when you don’t think that.

So the real question: are you truly disappointed that she lied about her previous sexual experiences, OR, are you more angry that her ideology was not the same as yours?


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## MMH (Jul 19, 2018)

Two the Point said:


> My wife and I have been married for more than 30 years. When we first met, we were attracted to each other for a variety of reasons, one of which was that we both shared a common value: remaining virgins until we were married.
> 
> Before I go any further, I respectfully ask that you not hijack this thread to interject your thoughts and opinions regarding why we valued virginity, whether it's normal or abnormal, whether it's good or bad, or right or wrong. Above all, please don't tell me "the past is past; just let it go." That's not the point of this thread - I'm not seeking advice on how to get over it.
> 
> ...


Regardless of your OCD, retro-jealousy, or whatever ails you, if you’re unable to live with her disappointing you and her deceptions, you’ll need to decide to stay or leave. If you choose to stay, you can’t expect her to be sorry forever. It’s not fair to either of you. I, too, had a similar experience with my high school sweetheart. Sadly, we divorced after 33 years. I just couldn’t live with the lies and inability to trust him. Our adult child still is struggling 7+ years with the dismantling of our family. We lost friends, our home, our way of living. There are many things to consider...
I say if your spouse loves you, try to work together for the common good for everyone. Love changes thru the years, you can’t recreate the past, but you can effect your future. Good luck 👍 My ex did not want a future with me...
I remarried a man with a similar moral compass as me. My life is better now.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think the underlying beliefs here are part of the problem he's experiencing. I find them a bit irrational tbh. The idea that a person lies so can be forever more labelled as "dishonest", as if it defines a person entirely. The idea that having had sex with more than one person makes a person "promiscuous" (with all it's negative connotations). As if having had sex means she can't have the same values as he did, which I find to be an irrational assumption as well. After all, she didn't have sex with him before marriage. She found a partner she wanted to spend her life with, and she had the same values about that relationship as he did (based on the fact he hasn't reported any other difficulties/problems/differences).

You might steal something in your lifetime, it doesn't mean you should be labelled a "thief".
You might have lied, it doesn't mean you should be labelled a "liar".
You might have been mean to someone, it doesn't mean you should be labelled a "nasty" person.
You might've had sex with more than one person, it doesn't mean you should be labelled a "****" or "promiscuous".
You might've yelled at your partner, it doesn't mean you should be labelled as an "abuser".

Edited to add: if the lie makes her "dishonest", doesn't telling the truth make her "honest"? If we're all about labeling and defining a person based on each and every action/behaviour, technically she has been honest longer than she was dishonest... 

There seems to be this thought of her doing something _to him_, rather than her doing something to _protect herself_ or _pursue a relationship with him_.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

The concept of born-again virgin or reborn virgin wasn't around when you started dating. If it had been, that would have been an easy explanation for her to use when discussing your values and mores. 

Currently you can only change your attitude regarding the subject such as counting your blessings versus nurturing and harboring ill feelings or get a divorce. There really is a point when enough is enough. You were wronged, move on.


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## californian (Jan 28, 2010)

Question for the poster: do you think your wife possesses high morals?


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Two the Point said:


> Eleven years into our marriage, my wife received a telephone call out of the blue, from a guy she dated for 7 years and hadn't heard from in 15 years. (For more detailed information on this, please see my post from 8/20/2020). He wanted to find out whether she would be attending their upcoming class reunion that was to take place a few days later.


As an additional thought, it seems rather naive to think that a seven year relationship did not become sexual.

And by that I'm not saying "you're dumb lol", but it suggests you grew up in an environment that encouraged and praised a rather idealized viewpoint on sexuality as being normal/possible. So I doubt it's really a case that just your wife lied to you, but that a rather large number of people in your life made that lie believable.

For example, I'd be 99.9% certain that multiple people at your wedding explicitly knew of her previous sexual history.

There's lots more going on here than your feelings about her, she's just the obvious choice for being a lightning rod about everything.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Atholk said:


> As an additional thought, it seems rather naive to think that a seven year relationship did not become sexual.
> 
> Not at all, since she told him she was also waiting for marriage. If she was not married then the correct inference was that she had not had sex prior. He mistakenly believed she was a truthful and honorable young lady


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## Two the Point (Aug 10, 2020)

Atholk said:


> As an additional thought, it seems rather naive to think that a seven year relationship did not become sexual.
> 
> And by that I'm not saying "you're dumb lol", but it suggests you grew up in an environment that encouraged and praised a rather idealized viewpoint on sexuality as being normal/possible. So I doubt it's really a case that just your wife lied to you, but that a rather large number of people in your life made that lie believable.
> 
> ...



Quite frankly, I believe that virtually no one at our wedding knew of her previous sexual history. Also, your statement that "a rather large number of people in your life made that lie believable" is totally incorrect. I'm not sure where your assumptions are coming from.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

No. Just go with no. Any other problems will surface, if any.

Just no, it doesn't bother an SO, after so many years. That ship has loooonnggg sailed for you to bring it up now as an individual problem.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> No. Just go with no. Any other problems will surface, if any.
> 
> Just no, it doesn't bother an SO, after so many years. That ship has loooonnggg sailed for you to bring it up now as an individual problem.


So have there been any issues in your marriage that you could attribute to dishonesty about her past? Intimacy issues? Odd notions of privacy?

I think the biggest threat to your marriage are missing or misunderstood discussions of privacy and boundaries. The main thing you need to get from this revelation, so you can feel comfortable and move on, is a belief that she's not going to hold secrets from you in the future. Such secrets would include unhappiness with issues in your relationship; she doesn't get to store things up. And why would she want to? It should be liberating to her to get things off her chest if she feels there's no reason to keep secrets. Does she have any more secrets? Now would be the time to get things out in the open. While it's not really the same, I think this needs to be treated similarly to if a spouse had cheated, due to the deception involving what were core values for you at the time you married.

Once you get through all this, the hard part comes. You need to drop it and move on. You need to love your wife for who she is. Best possible scenario is to come to the conclusion that, had she told you back then, you still would have married her. Believing that will help you a great deal. The years you've had together, good years you have said, should help to retroactively paint that picture (that you still would have married her, had you known).

You're in a much better place than me; you had this come out 11 years into your marriage, not 39. And you don't have obvious damage from what had gone on, while in my case it accounts for 42 years of intimacy issues because she decided to reinvent herself (as your wife did) and basically swear off sex (which your wife did not) as soon as we hit a trigger (sex itself was/is the trigger). 

Your marriage can come out of this fully intact and in a better place. But the privacy and boundary stuff... she has GOT to realize just how wrong it was to have that lengthy conversation with her ex. If she wants to pretend she never had a sexual relationship with that guy, it was incumbent upon her to also cut off ALL contact, forever. But she did a half-way thing, and started reintegrating her past life again. That was a path that could have gone in a really terrible direction. It still could.


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## JTodd (Sep 15, 2020)

As previous posters have stated; the issue isn't jealousy or getting over a thing, the issue is she deliberately and directly lied to you. That is the thing I would have a problem with, and I'm a guy with admitted jealousy and insecurity issues.


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## NicoleT (Jun 4, 2010)

Two the Point said:


> Thank you, Divinely Favored -- What you said is an absolutely perfect description of what I'm feeling. I couldn't have said it better myself!
> 
> By now, my wife is sick and tired of discussing this. Each time we discuss it, it's very painful to her, seeing the degree to which she has hurt me. In a recent discussion, she described herself as feeling helpless and hopeless when it comes to helping me get through this.
> 
> ...


Hi. I'm sorry for what you are going through. It seems DF's post rang true for you but one thing you said stuck out for me, that you need her to support you, even if you don't know how... Now DF's post referred to being more hurt than jealous, almost as if you were cheated on, so can anyone point this gentleman to the link which deals with the fallout after an affair (it's quite a lengthy one) and see what might be relevent to your situation? It's not an affair but maybe you are experiencing the same emotions as those cheated on? The post also advises great ways for the 'offending' spouse to provide support... Only thing is if this does help, will your wife be prepared and willing to see herself in the role of the WS? Praying for you guys.


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## NicoleT (Jun 4, 2010)

CatholicDad said:


> Frankly brother, I think you need to return to being a positive, strong man and never discuss, ponder, and especially NOT harass your wife over this again. She lied but per your words has been an incredible wife and mother.
> 
> Although, you SHOULD get angry and confront your wife if she ever dares talk at length with an old boyfriend (unless you’re next to her at a high school reunion or something). I think it’s very fair to be angry about that.
> 
> ...


Agree. Esp. the last bit.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i think, even though this has bugged you for 30 years....as you age more, your jealousy of what happened 35 years ago will die out. just hang in there. If it is really bothering you, do not take it out on your faithful wife....they are hard to find nowadays....instead go get some help from a shrink. they might be able to teach you some ways to cope with those bad memories when they start to come, before they become a big deal.


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