# Can lack of submission contribute to affairs? A guy's opinion, please!



## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

I've been reading the discussion in the Ladies' Lounge concerning male dominance of relationships. This has presented an interesting possibility to me of explaining my H's affair. The question is this: Do you think that an assertive wife can contribute to or encourage a husband to have an affair? 

A little background here: About a month ago, I discovered that my H had been having an affair with a co-worker. Very long story short, we have agreed to stay together but try an open relationship which allows for the possibility of physical relationships while we stay married and committed to our children. This was my suggestion and my decision. I'm a highly educated, successful, independent woman. Without question, I'm the "dominant" person in our relationship - both in the bedroom and out of it (financially, parenting, household, etc.). I'm not saying he doesn't provide input, but the majority of the decisions are mine. 

Finally - to stave off the obvious question: Yes, I'm attracted to my husband. Always have been.  Any and all comments are welcome here. I hadn't considered this before, but I'm interested to see if anyone else sees the same possibility.


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## joevn (Oct 23, 2009)

May be this is not a direct answer but if he's not feeling respected and admired (very important to men), he's going to be tempted to look for that validation elsewhere.

Then again, some men (and women) would have an affair just because they could.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Frankly, I think an "open relationship" is the marital eqivalent of death by wood chipper. It's going to be both painful and messy for both of you to see the other having "conjugal visits" with some stranger. Plus you have the added bennies of disease, and confusion beyond belief if your children should ever find out. 

Furthermore, if the sole reason for you staying with your husband is to be "committed to our children" than get your butts in counseling and work this thing out. I have never seen any mess cleaned up by creating yet even a larger mess. I'm intrigued by this line of thought though. By chance do you work for our government? 

Finally, I too am a highly educated and successful person, but how does that translate into my "getting a free boarding pass on the love bus" because my spouse screwed up and had an affair. These dots just don't connect Deary.

In closing I am going to make one final suggestion to you Momof3kids, try to become a partner to your husband. You might not think it, but the idea of having a helpmate not a playmate or a (domin-mate) is very appealing to us men. See a lot of us loose interst if you're either "too soft" or "too hard". 

It's sort of that "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" thing. We are looking for "just right", and by what you've wrote Momof3kids, I think you may be coming off to your hubby as "too hard."

Abandon the whole selfish notion of this "I'm married but single thing". Invite your husband back into the decision process of your life, and watch how fast he returns to you.

Just one man's thoughts. LIL


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## themrs (Oct 16, 2009)

Men like to feel needed. Honestly, who doesn't? If you make him feel obsolete, it's more likely he's going to go looking for someone who makes him feel like a hero. 

That's not to condone cheating in anyway. He should be a man and take the control if that's what he wants.


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

Your first question was "Do you think that an assertive wife can contribute to or encourage a husband to have an affair?"

Well SURE!!! Anything could contribute. The thread about dominance is well, every single poster's opinion form their point of view. Which I think is great! however one thing I see from it is that there is NOT agreement that there is ONE way to be and one characterization that fits all people or all relationships.
Maybe you two aren't matched well. Although I've always fantasized and thought how wonderful an open relationship migt be, I agree that in practice its tough and coming from a normal relationship, initiated by an affair I doubt will be useful other than to prolong the inevitable.
Sure being "dominated or controlled" does not make anyone really happy espcialy the male ego "in general". Some guys maybe love it. What really matters is what YOU two think about it. So ask HIM.

I don't know what it is, many people here are in a similar circumstance (including myself) where no communicaiton about what's going on deep inside is taking place and seems impossible because of the differences...then the affair starts.
The affair itself is NOT the problem its what happened or DIDNT happen leading up to and before it.


So I like what LIL wrote, work on it if you want it to work (BOTH of you),
or decide its time to go in a different direction.

(sorry I feel VERY opinionated today)


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

Momof3kids said:


> Do you think that an assertive wife can contribute to or encourage a husband to have an affair?


No, but there's a difference between "assertive" and "disrespectful". Assertive can still be sexy and welcoming and fun; disrespectful is shrewish and annoying and hateful. One way to identify the difference hinges on Dale Carnegie's advice, "Never criticize, condemn, or complain." If you say "I want this", or "Wouldn't it be fun to..." or "It turns me on when you..." or "I think we should look into replacing the furnace/roof/muffler/gutters/etc", then you're not being a doormat. I sure wouldn't want a doormat.

If you're saying "You never..." or "Are you going to wait until the gutters fall off?" or "Why haven't you...", that's disrespectful.



> I'm a highly educated, successful, independent woman. Without question, I'm the "dominant" person in our relationship - both in the bedroom and out of it (financially, parenting, household, etc.). I'm not saying he doesn't provide input, but the majority of the decisions are mine.


As far as the house and kids are concerned, he may look on you doing those things as properly womanly. Are there areas in your life that he's in charge of (cars, mowing the lawn, etc)? If so, do you make sure he knows that you recognize the job he does and appreciate him for doing it well?

As for the bedroom, if you're doing things he likes without leaving anything out, I can't see how it would be a problem if you take the initiative. Once in a while you might dress up sexy as an invitation and wait for him to respond, just to see how that goes.

So no, I don't see how being assertive and taking charge of issues in the family would contribute to an affair. I don't see a man stepping out on his wife because of something she _does_, unless it's something he doesn't like. I would guess he's more likely to step out because of something that's _lacking_, but what's going to bother one man in that regard isn't the same as what would bother another.


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

Momof3kids said:


> I've been reading the discussion in the Ladies' Lounge concerning male dominance of relationships. This has presented an interesting possibility to me of explaining my H's affair. The question is this: Do you think that an assertive wife can contribute to or encourage a husband to have an affair?


I do not think so. At least not directly.

If your husband's submission has made you think less of him, *he will know.* Having a wife that thinks her husband is a loser is the big reason that otherwise good men are driven into the arms of another woman. 

It may be very hard for you to realize that you think less of your husband because he is submissive to you. As a successful women, that is probably not who you want to be. _However, even if it is not who you want to be, it might be who you are._

Either way, there is no excuse for your husband's behaviour. Furthermore, your "open marriage" idea makes very little sense. Maybe you have lost interest in intimacy with your husband, and maybe you even have feelings for someone else. However, what seems like a good idea will likely backfire because you probably still love your husband very much (even if you do not lust for him), and it will continue to hurt you deeply every time he has a "date".

Fix it or forget it. Open marriage does not work.

Cohabitation as room-mates for the children's sake is a great idea, but that means both of you are free to rap up your feelings for each other and move on with new love interests.

Good luck.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wife is like you except 
- in bedroom she likes me to control / dominate - so I do and have done from the beginning
- she has only been working for last 1.5 years. Prior to that I was the sole breadwinner for 19 years. 

Her approach outside the bedroom never reduced my desire level for her. 

What was it the OW had that attracted your H to her?







Momof3kids said:


> I've been reading the discussion in the Ladies' Lounge concerning male dominance of relationships. This has presented an interesting possibility to me of explaining my H's affair. The question is this: Do you think that an assertive wife can contribute to or encourage a husband to have an affair?
> 
> A little background here: About a month ago, I discovered that my H had been having an affair with a co-worker. Very long story short, we have agreed to stay together but try an open relationship which allows for the possibility of physical relationships while we stay married and committed to our children. This was my suggestion and my decision. I'm a highly educated, successful, independent woman. Without question, I'm the "dominant" person in our relationship - both in the bedroom and out of it (financially, parenting, household, etc.). I'm not saying he doesn't provide input, but the majority of the decisions are mine.
> 
> Finally - to stave off the obvious question: Yes, I'm attracted to my husband. Always have been.  Any and all comments are welcome here. I hadn't considered this before, but I'm interested to see if anyone else sees the same possibility.


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## Andre2000 (Jul 2, 2009)

Momof3.

The answer...yes.



> I'm a highly educated, successful, independent woman. Without question, I'm the "dominant" person in our relationship - both in the bedroom and out of it (financially, parenting, household, etc.). I'm not saying he doesn't provide input, but the majority of the decisions are mine.


And here in lies the problem. You admit you are a highly educated woman. I congratulate you for being smart, thats great. However, I have to say what I have noticed through experience...too much thinking kills sex.

You need to come to terms with the fact that we ARE biological creatures. Sex is dictated by our biology, and male vs female biology is different, period. Sex is more than just penis in vagina between equal beings. Its a complex act that goes waaaaay beyond that. It's very animal, very primordial.

The problem here lies within your thinking and your education which has almost completely disconnected you from your biological needs and has absolutely castrated your husband's manhood by demanding his submission. His thinking is also his enemy in your relationship since he allows his submission to happen (his submission to you in everyway) due to logic and "fairness" that is pressured on to him by society, and from fear of being called a chauvinist.

Suddenly...wallah! A woman shows up, yes a woman, not some equal creature, but a woman...attracted to him, aroused by him, whom brings out the man in him, and what-do-ya-know? It turns him on...strangely and inexplicably, he is drawn to a woman that recognizes him as a man and not just some Asexual being that is the same as anyone else...The SAME goes for women who have affairs, they meet an assertive man and discover he is dominant in the bedroom, and they can't explain why but all they know is if feels good and the continue it, lie if they have to, in order to feel alive. They return to the "real world" plain and grey, no colors and be politically correct, only to return to their lovers when no one is watching, and dare to act out their biological differences together.


If you treat people like their sex doesn't matter and don't acknowledge the male female dichotomy, you get boring people. Everyone is the SAME. Like a world of stick figures. Theres no passion, there's really no love, just logic that you should love your spouse because (enter logic here...like...because of the kids, because I love him/her etc).


Another thing and this is in regards to castrating your husband emotionally....your fem dominance does this. I noticed your responses in the other thread regarding male dominance and how unattractive it was. I'm going to challenge you on this on the grounds that

1. you really don't know what male dominance is with respect to love and being a chauvinist-complete-a**hole-pig. There is loving dominance, and then there's being a complete control freak, and then theres the assh*le and the jerk...Feminism makes no distinction between them, male dominance=all of the above. 
2. Your repulsive type response to male dominance has been programmed into you by your education, not your biology. 

It's not your fault, and I especially blame your education over this because all universities require women to take a "women's studies" course which is injected with Misandry and instills fear in women in regards to men. Thats aside from "women's rights". I absolutely believe women have the RIGHT to choose whatever they wish, be it voting, be it staying in a relationship, be it abortion... but misandry is another beast that disguises itself as Rights...beware. 

The only solution that is presented to educated women is to "be dominant" and don't let men dominate you or you will be abused type of logic. That is NOT true and its a fear tactic. There is such thing as loving dominance, neither you nor your husband truly grasp this although he is ahead of you in the game now due to his experience in the affair. Both of you need to get in touch with your biological needs.

You asked, you got an answer. I'm happy to discuss this further if you welcome my response....or you can be like 90% of feminist women I encounter and tell me to take my (insert misandrist comment here) and shove it.
Either way...let me know. I'm happy to discuss and give reasons behind my opinions which is based not only on facts but on my experiences as a man.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

lastinline said:


> Furthermore, if the sole reason for you staying with your husband is to be "committed to our children" than get your butts in counseling and work this thing out. I have never seen any mess cleaned up by creating yet even a larger mess. I'm intrigued by this line of thought though. By chance do you work for our government?
> 
> Finally, I too am a highly educated and successful person, but how does that translate into my "getting a free boarding pass on the love bus" because my spouse screwed up and had an affair. These dots just don't connect Deary.
> 
> ...


LIL - 

So much to respond to here... First, yes we made the decision to have an open relationship. It was my suggestion, but not because I have any interest in or plans to seek an alternate relationship. There are very strict rules for each of us in this, and I'd much rather that he was open and honest than try to hide it and sneak around. I love him enough to see that this makes him happy - and with the exception of stability for my children - that is my ultimate goal. As for counseling - he will not go. I've asked, he refuses. I can't force him to go. 

No, I don't work for the government. But, I have a pretty open mind... 

Finally, as far as the idea of a partnership goes, that would require him to participate. I invite, encourage, and value his opinion and input, but he rarely provides any. This has been true for years, mostly because of work conditions which have required it to be so. So, if you have any suggestions on how exactly I should do this, I'd love to hear them...


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

themrs - I agree with you. I have never, to my knowledge which stems directly from what he has told me, made him feel inferior or obsolete. 

More responses to come later... I have a late meeting.


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## Andre2000 (Jul 2, 2009)

Interesting, when I caught my wife cheating I also was the one to suggest an open realtionship. I was willing to do anything.

One thing you need to know is you can't be responsible for him although I see you are very willing to nurture any side of him that needs it, but he needs to take the lead in what makes him happy...if you want to follow, it's your CHOICE...if you have your own ideas of being happy and will go your own way, then it's his CHOICE to follow you...although following is a submissive thing and it would be ironic that he would do it again or for you to accept his submission to you again. 

So sorry about the cheating. I KNOW how much it hurts.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Maybe not so much a lack of submission, but certainly if he doesn't feel you admire him, then yes you are on slippery ground. As soon as another woman implies he is wonderful, it's like crack to a bruised male ego. It's more potent than cleavage.

Likewise if you aren't clearly sexually turned on by him in bed in general, *we know*. That's like slicing a little off our soul everytime we have sex.

So a little miss saying "you're just so amazing" and smiling at him is the bait on the hook, and the squealing and moaning in the sack just seals the deal. The husband just thinks "I've never experienced feeling like this before, I never knew it could be like this. I've never felt this *wanted* before". Can be extremely hard to recover your lost ground to the OW if you're the wife.

The old line "if he was getting it at home, he wouldn't need to go looking for it" is true to an extent, and it's also true to an extent about his emotional needs as well. It's certainly not the whole truth. He could have said something before he threw his **** into another woman being one of them.


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## Andre2000 (Jul 2, 2009)

:iagree: emotional support is very important. No men are not emotionally decrepit. We are humans, just like women are and we suffer the same damage from derogatory language and misandrist comments especially when it comes from our spouse, but we don't recognize it for what it is because we are taught that we have little emotions, our emotions are second to the female, and we are tough, and not only that, that women are incapable of abuse in any way. Not only that, but if its dominant woman/submissive male relationship, then the man CAN'T stand up for himself unless he realizes his only option is to leave.

I was emotionally abused by my exwife (later physically), and I didn't even realize it until another woman pointed it out and suddenly I had the most tremendous hatred for her and I filed for divorce.

If another attractive woman noticed me and told me the things that Atholk just mentioned, I most definitely would have had an affair too, boy was I ripe for it.

Note that my ex was also controlling and dominant in a negative way (yes the Lord and Superior kind of way).


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Andre2000 said:


> ...just like women are and we suffer the same damage from derogatory language and misandrist comments especially when it comes from our spouse, but we don't recognize it for what it is because we are taught that we have little emotions, our emotions are second to the female, and we are tough, and not only that, that women are incapable of abuse in any way.


Yes I see many women treating their own husbands with verbal abuse ranging from constant put downs as if he was some incompentent butler to outright naked venom. _And the men just take it._ This happens even in public. Yet if he ever spoke to her in that same tone, people would regard him as a monster abusing her, and friends would pull her aside and talk about escaping to a shelter etc. Nothing is ever done for the abused husband. If anything, he is laughed at. It's very sad.

Not saying that's you Momof3kids. Just responding to Andre2000. But yeah, I know a few men close to me that you just want to buy earplugs for their Birthday.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

63Vino said:


> ...there is NOT agreement that there is ONE way to be and one characterization that fits all people or all relationships.
> Maybe you two aren't matched well. Although I've always fantasized and thought how wonderful an open relationship migt be, I agree that in practice its tough and coming from a normal relationship, initiated by an affair I doubt will be useful other than to prolong the inevitable.
> 
> (sorry I feel VERY opinionated today)


63 Vino - I agree. There is not a single relationship answer. Prolonging the inevitable? That's exactly what I'm doing...

And NEVER be sorry about being opinionated!!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Atholk,
We have known a couple for 16 years - they are just divorcing now. She routinely bullied him verbally in public - and most likely in private. NO way would he have been able to say to her the things she said to him. If he had - socially he would have been a pariah. 

Fast forward to 3 years ago - he simply got tired of the crap - he has a great career and makes serious money and he stopped sleeping with her and just began withdrawing emotionally. Instead of trying to fix the marriage she continued her pattern of selfish/mean behavior. He just filed. I always quietly hoped he would dump her - he is a nice man - and while she is very entertaining she is super self centered and aggressive. 






Atholk said:


> Yes I see many women treating their own husbands with verbal abuse ranging from constant put downs as if he was some incompentent butler to outright naked venom. _And the men just take it._ This happens even in public. Yet if he ever spoke to her in that same tone, people would regard him as a monster abusing her, and friends would pull her aside and talk about escaping to a shelter etc. Nothing is ever done for the abused husband. If anything, he is laughed at. It's very sad.
> 
> Not saying that's you Momof3kids. Just responding to Andre2000. But yeah, I know a few men close to me that you just want to buy earplugs for their Birthday.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

M3k,

We talked a bit about this in your other thread. Does he still love you? Does he express love or loving feelings towards you?

I don't know all of the details that transpired between you and your H. But in speculating, I see it perhaps as being the opposite of mine.
If you were strong, independent, confident ... and had the dominant role, as has been pointed out, it may be that he didn't feel desired or needed (rightly or wrongly). If his belief was somehow that you didn't need him emotionally or physically, he's at a dead end from his perspective. To be clear, still doesn't make his decision ok, but trying to get behind the reasons for the decision is interesting.

For my spouse, it was undoubtedly about emotional support, availability, and respect. I no longer was available, emotionally supportive, nor respectful. And I don't say that like it was a horrible mistake on my part. From my perspective, those were all things she had earned over the course of several months, whereas I had tolerated the same from her for years. I think respect is a huge factor. Did you feel that he respected you, and you him?


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

artieb said:


> No, but there's a difference between "assertive" and "disrespectful". Assertive can still be sexy and welcoming and fun; disrespectful is shrewish and annoying and hateful.
> 
> As far as the house and kids are concerned, he may look on you doing those things as properly womanly. Are there areas in your life that he's in charge of (cars, mowing the lawn, etc)? If so, do you make sure he knows that you recognize the job he does and appreciate him for doing it well?


Agreed - and I would still call myself assertive. "I messages" are the key to communicating, imo, and I use them. I do not use "You should... You are... You need to..." Are there areas in life that he's in charge of? One - the lawn. Everything else is my responsibility. I have tried to divide up the responsibility between the two of us, but it has never been successful. Lists don't work, asking nicely doesn't work, and neither does demanding. When he does complete a task, however, I am always mindful of telling him how much I appreciate his help, hoping that it will spawn even further contributions.



AlexNY said:


> It may be very hard for you to realize that you think less of your husband because he is submissive to you. As a successful women, that is probably not who you want to be. _However, even if it is not who you want to be, it might be who you are._
> 
> Either way, there is no excuse for your husband's behaviour. Furthermore, your "open marriage" idea makes very little sense. Maybe you have lost interest in intimacy with your husband, and maybe you even have feelings for someone else. However, what seems like a good idea will likely backfire because you probably still love your husband very much (even if you do not lust for him), and it will continue to hurt you deeply every time he has a "date".
> 
> ...


Alex - I hadn't considered that perhaps I was harboring the idea that I think less of him. I need to consider this before I can effectively respond. However, I can say that I have not lost interest in intimacy with my husband - not in the least - and I have no interest in anyone else. We are now on month two of our arrangement, and so far I can say that my feelings are not hurt here. It is strange and a little uncomfortable, but it's been refreshing to be able to know what's going on rather than having to guess and wonder. I agree, however, that cohabitation is where we're headed.



MEM11363 said:


> What was it the OW had that attracted your H to her?


A good question. She is my antithesis. Physically, she is taller and heavier and completely different. Emotionally, she is VERY needy and dependent. In terms of education, she barely finished high school where I have an advanced degree. All of these reasons are why I started this thread in the first place, trying to figure out if it was my independence that drove him there in the first place.

Andre - not ignoring you and I'd like to have that conversation, but I'm limited on time. Be patient, please.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I wonder what lies he now has to tell her, to maintain that relationship? I'm thinking this can't be a person with a lot of self-esteem.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Andre2000 said:


> You need to come to terms with the fact that we ARE biological creatures. Sex is dictated by our biology, and male vs female biology is different, period. Sex is more than just penis in vagina between equal beings. Its a complex act that goes waaaaay beyond that. It's very animal, very primordial.
> 
> The problem here lies within your thinking and your education which has almost completely disconnected you from your biological needs and has absolutely castrated your husband's manhood by demanding his submission. His thinking is also his enemy in your relationship since he allows his submission to happen (his submission to you in everyway) due to logic and "fairness" that is pressured on to him by society, and from fear of being called a chauvinist.


I would have to disagree here. I am completely in touch with my biological needs. I love sex, can't get enough sex - and while the emotional connection is a bonus, it's not the reason I seek out sex with my husband. It's certainly a biological drive for me, particularly because I am in my 30s. I don't demand his submission - it's been mostly a matter of upbringing and circumstances which have led to my running nearly everything. I don't demand his submission - I don't even encourage his submission. It is his choice. 



Andre2000 said:


> Another thing and this is in regards to castrating your husband emotionally....your fem dominance does this. I noticed your responses in the other thread regarding male dominance and how unattractive it was. I'm going to challenge you on this on the grounds that
> 
> 1. you really don't know what male dominance is with respect to love and being a chauvinist-complete-a**hole-pig. There is loving dominance, and then there's being a complete control freak, and then theres the assh*le and the jerk...Feminism makes no distinction between them, male dominance=all of the above.
> 2. Your repulsive type response to male dominance has been programmed into you by your education, not your biology.
> ...


You are correct in that I find male dominance unattractive. Was my education responsible for it? Absolutely not. I do not practice misandry, nor hold any of its tenets to be true. I have never been led to the idea of "dominate or be dominated" in any of my education, never taken a women's studies class, and have always held people of both sexes in high regard - if they've earned it. Assertiveness is my aim - not dominance. I have no desire or need to control my spouse (or my employer or my client, etc). I have no desire or need for him to control me. This is the result of my upbringing - not my education. My parents (both my mother and father) raised me to be strong and independent, to stand on my own two feet. My repulsion to dominance is not based on whether it comes from a man or not - but to the idea of dominance as a necessity at all. 

I am, however, a proponent of equal opportunity and partnership. Spouses should share responsibility, in an ideal situation, for everything - the household, parenting, finances, etc. Each spouse should be respected for what they do bring to the relationship, praised for their contributions, and valued for who they are - not who they've been or who they'll become - but who they are. I do respect, praise, and value my husband. I am attracted to him, and would have sex with him daily if he wanted to. He has supported me through 3 rough pregnancies, school, and a very demanding career. I have supported him through an abundance of difficulties, and I will continue to support him. Heck, I'm even supporting an open relationship if it means that he'll be happy and fulfilled.  

Now, reflecting upon all I've stated above, I'm wondering if the issue lies somewhere more in the realm of the idea that I don't NEED him. I want him and I love him, but I don't need him... Maybe I'll ask that question tonight.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Deejo said:


> M3k,
> 
> We talked a bit about this in your other thread. Does he still love you? Does he express love or loving feelings towards you?
> 
> ...


See response to Andre above... I'm thinking maybe the issue isn't dominance/submission, but perhaps an issue of feeling NEEDED. The truth is, I don't need him. I love him, I want him, but I don't need him - financially, emotionally, or even sexually I suppose. All these things can be accomplished without him. Would I want him to leave and not be there? No. Could I survive it? Yes. That sounds tremendously cold, but it's not intended that way. I love him very much - and yes, he still displays and enunciates love towards me.



Deejo said:


> I wonder what lies he now has to tell her, to maintain that relationship? I'm thinking this can't be a person with a lot of self-esteem.


:iagree:


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## AlexNY (Dec 10, 2009)

Momof3kids said:


> ... She is my antithesis. Physically, she is taller and heavier and completely different. Emotionally, she is VERY needy and dependent. In terms of education, she barely finished high school where I have an advanced degree. All of these reasons are why I started this thread in the first place, trying to figure out if it was my independence that drove him there in the first place.


I think what your husband needs is not to be dominant, it is to be relevant. He wants to be needed.

I wish the best for you, probably more than for any other person whose loss I have heard about on this board. It is very rare for someone to attempt to endure the unendurable, even for the sake of their children.

I wish you the best, but I must be honest, I do not think you will succeed. Slowly, it will kill you. As someone else stated earlier, being forced into an open marriage is like death by wood chipper. There are a tiny number of people who can live with it, but if you were forced into it, chances are this is not you.

You are going to have to find a way to stop loving this man.

Good luck.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks, Alex. I appreciate your kind words. I love my children very much - would do anything for them - and I'm glad that it is evident.  

I feel that he is relevant to our life in all respects, but you may be right - he may not feel that way. The question becomes whether it is something that I'm doing or not doing OR whether this is something internal for him to contend with (self-esteem, self-assurance, etc.) which I can only support but not change. I wonder if he can even answer that. 

However, make no mistake - the suggestion of an open marriage was mine. I was not forced or coerced into it. Is it the death knell of this marriage? Perhaps, but not until the kids are gone... And I don't believe that anything is unendurable. You get through what you must get through and come out the other side having learned something about yourself.


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## helpmeunderstand (Dec 22, 2009)

OK, I'm going to through in my 2cents worth. I thing your problem is not "dominance" but you "independence". My guess is that your H feel unloved and unappreciated. Ask your self is the sex intimate, or is it just mechanical sex? 

Personally I wish my wife was more dominant in bed (but I would not her to dominate all the time). Maybe you need to let go and let him take control once in a while?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

What happens when he ends the relationship with this woman and wants to take solace in your arms, and bed ... have you entertained that?

Also, are you using your wily womanly ways to subversively use these conditions to rebuild your bond? I'm trying to figure out if you have accepted this as a utilitarian relationship, or your hope is that by staying in the picture, that by virtue of his own personal weakness he will eventually come around? I will qualify that I'm not accusing you or assigning any judgment regardless of what you are doing.

I guess my fear is that you get both wishes, he re-establishes a bond with you, but you have also given him the green light to pursue other women, and he continues to do so.

I'm just speculating about train-wreck scenarios. 

I'm rolling this around in my head Mom, because functionally the only difference between your circumstances and mine at the moment, are that my wife and I don't live under the same roof. We still interact regularly on the kids behalf.

If I'm being honest ... and I am ... I can say without a doubt that if my wife came onto me, or if I found her receptive in a given situation that I would sleep with her. But I wouldn't associate sex with reconciliation or hope. What I'm getting at, is that you and I could possibly be in the awkward and unhealthy position of potentially having an affair with our spouses ... while they are in or pursuing relationships with other people. Man, that has MTV reality show written all over it. :scratchhead:

*Note to self* Don't have an affair with your spouse who is having an affair.

Think I'll have to test my resolve and invite her over to the apartment for dinner on Saturday.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

helpmeunderstand said:


> OK, I'm going to through in my 2cents worth. I thing your problem is not "dominance" but you "independence". My guess is that your H feel unloved and unappreciated. Ask your self is the sex intimate, or is it just mechanical sex?
> 
> Personally I wish my wife was more dominant in bed (but I would not her to dominate all the time). Maybe you need to let go and let him take control once in a while?


Sex with us has never been a problem. It is intimate and amazing - when it actually happens. Sometimes mechanical, sometimes not - just depends on the day, I suppose. The issue becomes that if I let go and let him take control of our sex life, we'd never have sex. Well, maybe not never, but it would be very infrequent. 



Deejo said:


> What happens when he ends the relationship with this woman and wants to take solace in your arms, and bed ... have you entertained that?
> 
> Also, are you using your wily womanly ways to subversively use these conditions to rebuild your bond? I'm trying to figure out if you have accepted this as a utilitarian relationship, or your hope is that by staying in the picture, that by virtue of his own personal weakness he will eventually come around? I will qualify that I'm not accusing you or assigning any judgment regardless of what you are doing.
> 
> ...


What happens when he ends it? I'm sure I don't know. But you must understand, I have not and have no plans to stop having sex with my husband. There are rules in place - unbendable rules which we both established and agreed to. So far, he's stuck to them so I have no complaints. I think I have accepted this as a utilitarian relationship - think friends with benefits scenario, if you will. The bond between us hasn't been broken, just altered. It's focused on our children and our family, but also includes a friendship which was the basis of our relationship first. You see, we've been together more than 1/2 of my life - literally. He's been part of my life for nearly 20 years (and I'm only 33). I envision him being part of my life until I die - I just don't envision it in the same way anymore. At this point, I'm in until the kids are gone. After that - it's a whole new ball game... 

And good luck with dinner!


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## Andre2000 (Jul 2, 2009)

Well Momof3...I really don't know what you want to hear.

You are obviously unhappy, a utilitarian marriage? This is happiness? Your husband is cheating, and you are asking for an open marriage?
Then you wonder why, we tell you why, but you just turn it around and say that things are great this way as it is...

You came to the men's club house section and asked for a male perspective. Many of us here have not only gone through this and found the solution, but so have our partners. But you just throw it back and refuse any change.

This type of illogical mentality reminds me of talking to an obese person. They will be very unhappy, very depressed at times...then they meet a person that is FIT. This person urges them that there are things his/her body needs and basically tells the obese person they need to change...to look in the mirror.

The obese person immediately goes on the defensive, then starts denying ever being unhappy. They might even blame any unhappiness on "skinny" people. They might even say that they were "meant to be fat" and that "god made me this way" etc...

and they go right back to eating their 30,000calorie diets per day, and continue their lethargy...and when they get depressed again, instead of saying enough is enough and putting in the effort to change and take care of the needs of their bodies and mind...they actually EAT MORE.

So go ahead and eat more so to speak. You absolutely have the right to do so. By no means are any of us TELLING you what to do. But you asked, and you got the answer...but you say no. 

Thats absolutely fine. I think of it like being a personal trainer...personal trainers really don't care about those huge ass'd people on electric wheel chairs at the supermarket unless they are approached by them and are asked for help.


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## Momof3kids (Nov 24, 2009)

Andre2000 said:


> Well Momof3...I really don't know what you want to hear.
> 
> You are obviously unhappy, a utilitarian marriage? This is happiness? Your husband is cheating, and you are asking for an open marriage?
> Then you wonder why, we tell you why, but you just turn it around and say that things are great this way as it is...


I don't want to hear anything specific - I'm just trying to rationally plot things out in my own mind. For me, that often means bouncing ideas off of other people so that my thought process can include all possibilities. Am I happy? Not particularly. Am I UNhappy? Nope. Happiness, in my opinion, is something you choose. Can I be wholly fulfilled by the current situation? Nope. Can I deal with the situation as is? You bet. I do take exception to your idea that higher education is to blame, however, for our troubles. 



Andre2000 said:


> You came to the men's club house section and asked for a male perspective. Many of us here have not only gone through this and found the solution, but so have our partners. But you just throw it back and refuse any change.


I'm not throwing back anything, but this situation IS change. Is it the change you think I should make? Obviously not, but it is change. 



Andre2000 said:


> This type of illogical mentality reminds me of talking to an obese person. They will be very unhappy, very depressed at times...then they meet a person that is FIT. This person urges them that there are things his/her body needs and basically tells the obese person they need to change...to look in the mirror.
> 
> The obese person immediately goes on the defensive, then starts denying ever being unhappy. They might even blame any unhappiness on "skinny" people. They might even say that they were "meant to be fat" and that "god made me this way" etc...
> 
> ...


First, just for the record, I am not being defensive. I am explaining. If I was being defensive, I would have used an entirely different vocabulary. Have we had issues and rough times? Of course. This is just another bump in the road, in my opinion. The difference is that I see this now as a dead end road, but one I can continue down before coming to a T intersection and changing my own path. 

Second, I would like to know what about this mentality is illogical? Is it really illogical or is it that it doesn't fit into your conception of what marriage is supposed to be? Until the last 200 years or so, marriages in western society were contracts between families - they were not based on love. This is no different. It's putting the family ahead of personal needs - something I'm entirely willing and able to do. I am not depressed (believe me - been there, done that, and this is not depression), I am not blaming anyone for the situation. I think we both have responsibility for the state of our marriage.

If you remember, the point of this whole posting was to determine whether my lack of submission was a factor. I think we've determined that independence and lack of relevancy is probably more likely. For that, I thank every single one of you for helping me contemplate the ideas running through my head. It is greatly appreciated. Will it change anything? Probably not, but it helps me!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I do know of another example of these circumstances through having discussions with my best friend.

He knows a couple where the wife and kids live in one level of the house, and dad lives in the refinished basement. I don't know their status, whether divorced or separated. Money was an issue, and he didn't want to be away from the kids.

I have considered this option from a financial perspective as well.

So, it isn't all that crazy. As long as no one is being harmed - particularly the kids, I don't see it as a choice of weakness, or being flawed, or somehow emotionally damaged. 

In fact, you have no choice but to develop a positive working relationship with your spouse or partner, which seems tragically backwards. Without a doubt, my wife and I get along much better uncoupled.

From my perspective as long as all of the participants know, and abide by the ground rules of the arrangement - which will invariably include other people (they need to know the arrangement too), than so be it.


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