# need your thoughts



## AtMyEnd

So about a year ago something felt off in my marriage. We had been going through a disconnect but things seemed to be improving. Then I noticed little changes in my wife's behavior with her phone. She was texting much more then she usually and never leaving the phone out of her sight. When I looked at the text log for our cell account I saw sometimes hundreds of texts per day with the same number, and not one i recognized. The texts would start from the time she woke up, usually the other number texting first, and would go until she went to sleep. I did some investigating on my own and found out who the number was. It was another attorney that I know she knew but didn't work with or close with. They practice 2 totally different fields of law but he was close friends with one of her bosses, which is how they met. Before all this happened she would talk about him and tell me advice he's given her as a young lawyer and would tell me about how they spoke from time to time and became good friends. She would also tell me about how her boss would be upset if he knew they were friends and it could jeopardize her job. When I first saw the texts, I didn't think much of it. They were normally during the day into the evening. As time went on they went through the weekends and holidays, literally all day. So after seeing that she texted with him all New Years Eve and a good part of Valentines Day, I called her out on it. She swore up and down that it was nothing and that they were just really good friends. I asked her to see her phone so that I could see what they were texting about so much. She flat out refused saying how her privacy was important to her and that some of the texts were about his personal life that I had no business knowing. Long story short I said some threatening things towards him, she told him that and he cut all ties with her. I told her that if this really was something innocent and he really is just a good friend then ask him if he'll speak to me so we can straighten things out. Again she basically refused saying that he won't return her calls or texts. Now knowing my wife and knowing this guy and what he looked like, I know nothing physical ever happened. That I know for sure. But it put a strain on things and the progress we were making improving our relationship. Fast forward now to last week. I've still been suspicious at times being that that last incident was never completely resolved. So when I went up to bed one night I found her sleeping with her phone in her hand and the screen still on. I took it out of her hand to put it on the night table and saw a texts asking how I was being. Taken back a little I looked at who it was from and wondered why she would be talking to him about our relationship. The guy was someone we both know but she has known longer. We play volleyball in the summer and he is on one of the teams in the league. Her and her friends had become friends with the entire team over the last couple years so it wasn't too out of the ordinary that she would be taking to him. But still seeing that apparently they had spoken about me at some point, I started to scroll though the conversation. In doing so I came across a text from him that was quite sexually explicit, talking about all the things he was going to do to her in her dreams that night. Her response, although fairly vague, was still suggestive. And just the fact she responded to it was disturbing enough. So I call her out on it and again she says it was nothing and just a vague response. Again I ask to see the phone and she refuses. And again it turns into a major blow out. She still swears that it was only a text and didn't go any further than that. From what I've seen there is a lot that says there is an affair, but there is also a lot that says there wasn't and it was only occasional texts. I scrolled some more in the phone and didn't see anything else like that or even really flirty even. Before I went further she started to move and I thought she was waking up so I put the phone down and it locked. We do and have a fair amount of problems in our relationship over the last 2 years. During talks / arguments about this current incident she told me how she does still love me and cares about me but can't find that sexual connection right now, I know, red flag. Things went back and forth between us ending no where but an argument. She still swears it was nothing more than texts, that it was stupid to do in the first place and feels she really didn't do anything wrong. Being that lately all of our conversations end in arguments, I wrote her a letter detailing all of our problems and what we need to do to at least try and fix them, as well as why thoughts, feelings and why I'm so upset about this. I ended the letter with how I want her to think about all this very seriously and we'll talk when she gets back from her trip, she's away with our son so I know she's not with the guy. At this point in our problems I have come to terms with if it's over, it's over and it's fine. I just want some kind of resolution to all this. My concern is the talk we're going to have and how to approach it in the most effective way. Like I said, if it's over than it's over, but getting a divorce really is the last thing I want. There is a young child involved, we do have a great family unit and I know it would be really though on him if we split. So I'm kind of on the fence on how to handle things.


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## Lostme

She is having an emotional affair with this guy, Maybe physical not sure but definitely emotional.

In order to save your marriage she is going to need to be 100 percent transparent giving you access to everything at anytime, she also needs to stop talking to these men. If she needs to complain to someone about you then she needs to go to marriage counseling with you and clear the air there or sit down and talk with you about it.

I can tell that you are going to have a fight on your hands regarding her giving up transparency, as she baulks about privacy which when married you only need privacy while going to the restroom.


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## AtMyEnd

I know it will be a fight, it usually is when I try to get straight answers from her. I did search out a marriage counselor last year that I thought would be perfect for us and help with our problems. We went to 3 sessions and then she said she wasn't going anymore because she didn't believe in it. Everyone else I've spoken to about all of this and our other problems have told me that I'm going about it the right way. Problem is it seems she doesn't want to commit to anything. After 13 years of marriage, 2 years of problems, only the last year being really bad, she still can't answer the question of if she wants to even try and work things out. The answer I get is "I can't answer that right now". Like I said, the last thing I want is to get divorced. I do still love her, I don't want my child to grow up without me in the house, and we do still work very well together. But at this point all I really want from her is either a yes or no if she wants to stay married.


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## 225985

I am very glad you found this place. The people here are awesome. 

She is having an affair at least an EA with the attorney and i will bet my next paycheck that she is still communicating with him but took it underground. She is lying to you. 

Unfortunately your story is not new. It's been post here dozens if not hundreds of times. 

Fortunately your story is not new. Many here have lived it. On both sides. 

The people here will help. Let them and follow the advice.


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## anchorwatch

There's no reason to argue with her. You will accept her cheating or you won't. It's not up to her. It's up to you. If she can't live with that you have your answer. 

Read carefully...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html#post306559

The Healing Heart: The 180

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Best


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## MattMatt

So she had EAs with two different men?

This is not good.

Monitor her.


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## heartbroken50

I'm curious... didn't you post in another thread that YOU had an online affair? 

Does your wife know about your activities? 

If so, it's possible that your actions sufficiently damaged your marriage so that now "just chatting" is ok acceptable. 

I mean if it was justifiable for you, it should be ok for her too, right?

If she doesn't know about your activity, isn't it hypocritical to hold her to a different standard?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## anchorwatch

@AtMyEnd, what kind of a marriage do you have where both of you need to look outside of it for comfort?


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## AtMyEnd

I did and she does know. When she found out I came clean. The affair I had online was with someone 1000 miles away from me, not saying it was right, but it happened. It was completely emotional and not sexual, she saw our conversations. I know that did damage to our marriage and she knows that I'm sorry and never meant for it to happen. I couldn't hide it as she hacked my account and saw it all. My issue here is that both times she's been caught all she does is refuse and deny, even when I've shown her that I have proof of it. Our marriage was improving over the last 8 months until this recent find. And one of the things that does throw me a little is I saw a text from a few weeks ago asking where he's been and she hadn't heard from him for about 2 months. That's one of the things that makes me think the latest may not be a physical affair. Yes what she did is similar to what I did, that's why I'm so suspect. But 2 wrongs don't make a right. I've made my mistakes, I've owned them, and I've been doing everything I can to make them right


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## anchorwatch

It would seem your marriage hasn't improved as well as you thought.

Read the links given previously.


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## AtMyEnd

There was a disconnect 2 years ago, a major failure in communication. We basically "existed" together for a year. She admitted that she had made a conscious decision to just do her own thing and not worry about me, and I admitted that I built up a lot of resentment because I felt she wasn't including me in her life. We decided to work on our relationship but she still felt we drifted too far apart. My argument to that was how do you know how far you drifted if you never really talk to each other. The woman I had an online emotional affair with started out as us talking about my marriage and our problems. She offered a lot of advice and a lot of it helped. My marriage and our relationship were improving until she found out about this other woman. Yes I had feelings for her but my relationship with her still revolved around me talking and venting about my marriage


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## 225985

heartbroken50 said:


> I'm curious... didn't you post in another thread that YOU had an online affair?
> 
> Does your wife know about your activities?
> 
> If so, it's possible that your actions sufficiently damaged your marriage so that now "just chatting" is ok acceptable.
> 
> I mean if it was justifiable for you, it should be ok for her too, right?
> 
> If she doesn't know about your activity, isn't it hypocritical to hold her to a different standard?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ugh. 

AME, please don't leave out vital information. Your omission of your own affair is very telling.

Who cheated first?


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## AtMyEnd

I read the links you posted, and thank you. Many of the ideas I have thought about. My big concern here is my child. The last thing I want to do is to hurt him in anyway. If it weren't for him I most likely would've left 2 years ago when things first started.


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## heartbroken50

I wasn't really justifying her behavior... just trying to get a better picture. 

How did you reconcile after your EA? What did you do to show her you changed? Did you identify the problems that led to your disconnect and made you vulnerable to an affair?

I ask because my H had 6 month online affair ... I caught him and he apologized. We tried to R, but he never really thought what he did was that bad as it never went physical... his OW was also on the other side of the country. FYI that doesn't hurt less. He was willing to risk losing me for her no matter where she was.

Anyway, my point is that if you never fixed the original disconnect with hard work and just rugswept your previous affair, it kind of is a perfect storm for her to now be looking elsewhere.

You'll get good advice here on sleuthing, and when to confront. I will just that if you want to reconcile, the underlying issues need to be addressed ...probably in MC. But only after she ends her EA(s).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AtMyEnd

When she found out about mine, I told her everything. I told her that I never meant for anything like that to happen. I told her that there was never anything sexual about it, yes we talked about sex but not with each other. My wife had hacked my account and saw all the conversations, she knew what we had talked about. We talked about it over and over again and she said she understood. We basically started from scratch again. We basically dated. Everything that she ever said that I did that bothered her I made a conscious effort to change. Her and her friends all said to both of us how they all saw the changes in me. And now going through this with her for a second time, the couple friends of hers that I've spoken to don't understand it. They don't understand why she would do it. They've told me that I had become everything that she said she wanted from me.


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## AtMyEnd

*Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

Let me start this again as I did leave information out in my previous post. So let's start from the beginning.

I've been married for 13 years. We've built a great life together, great house, a fantastic son, 3 dogs and 3 cats. Five years ago the company I worked for sold. The new owner made more than many mistakes and ended up closing. The economy was down and my 16 year career turned into a dead end because of it. I was out of work for 8 months but I was working doing something and making money for 6 of those 8 months. Money did get tight and long story short, my wife blamed me. She said about my company closing that "I should've seen it coming". She's seemed to have animosity towards me since. After 8 months I finally got a job in my field again and I felt things would go back to normal. Things between us didn't improve but they didn't get any worse. My industry had taken a major turn around that time and wasn't what it used to be. A year later I made the decision to switch fields and start a new career. My wife was already established in her career and was going full force. I supported every move see made and was by her side through it all. Sadly it didn't feel she was behind me. I went to work for a large company yet very family oriented, a large majority of the staff have been there for 20 plus years. The money was much better and the company is great, but it is more demanding.

So now fast forward to about two and a half years ago. I was focusing on my new career and she was advancing in hers. We would have arguments about time because she would need to work late or go to functions and I would want to spend time with her. Her work started flowing over to nights and weekends as well. It drove me crazy. She was constantly on the phone, taking calls in the middle of our time or texting. She felt I didn't care about her career because I would get upset about how much time she dedicated to work vs. how much she dedicated towards us. She kept moving in her direction of always putting work first, and I started slipping into a depression because of it. Knowing that any time I mentioned it would only start a fight, I never said anything about it. The disconnect grew larger. Our day to day around the house wasn't bad but it was no where near a marriage. By this point we both pretty much shut each other out. About 8 months or so after this happened we got in an argument about work again, and it turned into an argument about us drifting apart. I explained my views on it again and said how of course we disconnected, we never talk anymore. She still continued that it was more about work and my view on her career that caused it and the disconnect grew more. Any time I brought it up she would turn it on me that it was my fault. Yes I took blame but I also said how it was both of us that caused it.

I had a void. I lived with a woman I loved that seemed to not want to pay any attention to me. I started to suffer from insomnia and spent many late nights on the couch. During that time I also looked for things to do, let's face it tv at 3:00am is not existent, lol. I started playing an online game to fill the time. During this time I started chatting with the same woman a lot. We talked about everyday things and our lives. She had been in a similar situation years earlier and ended up splitting. There were other similarities in our relationships as well and things just kind of clicked. Mostly we talked about my marriage and it's problems, and she would give me advice and things to try that may help. I looked at her more as counseling then as an affair. Yes we spoke about sex, but sex in general, not sex with each other. She made me feel wanted again, she filled that void I was missing. Apparently my wife became suspicious of something and started snooping without my knowledge. She somehow was able to hack my account and she found out about this other woman. She saw most of our conversations and read what we wrote to each other. She confronted me on it and I denied it, why I still don't really know. Then she showed me that she saw the conversations and knew all about it. At that point I came clean, I told her everything she wanted to know. How it happened, why it happened, everything. I apologized every way I knew how. I showed her my phone, my email, everything. There was no reason to hide anything. From that point I made a conscious effort to work on every thing she ever told me I did that bothered her. I listened to her instead of just hearing her, and I acted on that in a positive way. Her friends made comments to me and to her about how I seemed happy again and how I seemed like a different person, they were impressed. Everyone saw a difference, everyone but her. Things did improve a little but she still seemed very withdrawn. I didn't let that stop me and I just kept on doing what I was doing, hoping that I would eventually see a change.

As time went on things stayed the same, no better but no worse. She was still withdrawn but there were some slight changes I noticed in behavior. She always had her phone in her hands, always texting and much more then usual. Conversation also become much shorter and she never seemed to leave her phone unattended. Growing suspicious of this I decided to log into our account and take a look at her text log. Looking over a few weeks I noticed the same number over and over again, it wasn't a number i knew so I became even more suspicious. As time went on, the frequency of the texts with that number increased to the point that they started at 6:30am (usually the other number texting first) and going until the time she went to sleep, literally sometimes hundreds of texts per day. I did some investigating and found out who the other number was. It was another attorney that she knew, but didn't work with. He actually practiced an entirely different field of law. But he was a good friend of one of her bosses and would sometimes attend the same functions. So one day I asked her about it. I told her I happened to be looking at the account and I saw a lot of texts with the same number. She asked what the number was and I told her. She said, oh that's M, you know, I've told you about him. Then she went on about how they talk about law things and how he's kind of like a mentor. I thought that to be a little odd since they don't practice the same thing but whatever, I let it go. I keep checking the log from time to time and I notice that the texts now are all weekend as well, New Years Eve until 1am and most of the day on Valentine's Day too. I don't say anything because I have no real proof of anything other then the frequency of the texts. Then I decide to throw her a surprise party for her birthday. I have everything set, all our friends are meeting at a restaurant and I'm going to text one of her friends when we get close. Right before we leave the house her friends texts me from her husbands phone because she left hers at home. Driving to the restaurant my wife is texting away, so I ask her who she's texting. She tells me C. And I think well that's funny since C just told me her phone is at the house, so busted, she lied. I don't say anything to her and we have a great night. The next morning I confront her on it. She says it's nothing and they've just become close friends and talk a lot. So I ask to she her phone and see the texts, she refuses. It turns into a big fight, a lot of things were said including me breaking his legs, but she still refuses to let me see the phone. She told me that they spoke about things in his personal life as well and they were none of my business. She tells him what I said and he decides to cut all ties completely. Being that she said he was such a good friend, I found that very shady. I told her that if it really is all innocent then let me talk to him and explain why I feel the way I do and we'll straighten it out. She tells me that he won't do it, that he wants nothing to do with her or me. At this point I know communication with him is over, and I know it was never a physical affair (I've seen what he looks like and definitely not even close to her type), so I let it drop. Over the next few months things improved a lot, almost to the point of a normal marriage, not so much a loving marriage, but a normal one. 

About 8 months later I noticed that she had become more withdrawn again and couldn't think of why. Things had been good, a couple little bumps but nothing major. This goes on for about a month (this February) and I still couldn't figure out why. Then one night I went up to bed and saw her out cold with her phone in her hand with the screen on. I go to move it to the nightstand and look at the screen. There's a message there for a guy that we play volleyball with in the summer (not the same team, just in our league) and he's asking how I'm being. Not how I am but how I'm being. I find this odd, why would she talk to this guy about our relationship, so i start to scroll back in the conversation. I go back not too far and see a text from him being extremely sexually explicit about what he wants to do to her and tells her to dream about all the things he'll be doing to her. The next morning she replied saying how her dreams had pleasurable experiences. At that point she started to roll around in bed, I was in shock and I put the phone down and the screen locked. The next morning I confronted her about it. She told me that sometimes he sends things that are a little inappropriate. So I show her a picture on my phone of that text and ask "you thing that's just inappropriate?" We go back and forth about it with her apologizing and I once again ask to see her phone. Same as last time she refuses, this time she says how her privacy is important to her and she won't show me the phone. So I call her out again right there that she's having an affair. She swears up and down that it never went further than the text and how that was the first time he ever sent something like that. I kept asking her what would even give him the idea that sending something like that would be ok and she had no answer. At one point she even accused me of creating a situation that doesn't exist over a stupid silly text. The one thing that bothered me still was that there was a lot that said there is an affair and there's equally the same that says it didn't go further than the texts So as the days went on the arguments about it just kept happening so I decided to stop talking to her all together other than important household type things. I still said goodbye when I left for work and hello when I got home but that was it.

That was a few days ago. Since then, conversation has resumed but no mention of the text or our problems. Being that our conversations all tun into arguments lately, I decided to write her a letter. I outlined all of our problems and what we need to do to try and fix them, but that it would take a conscious effort on both parts this time if we had any chance. I also did talk about the text, why it bothered me and why I felt the way I did. I left the letter as read this, seriously think about it and we'll talk. But we do need to talk because neither one of us can go on living like this.

My biggest issue here is that I don't want to get divorced, there's a young child involved. I may be able to swallow some of my pride so that my child grows up with me around all the time, but I can't keep living without a decision of how or what we're going to do to move forward or if we're going to move forward at all. Mentally I'm ok if we get divorced, other than missing my kid. But a decision needs to be made, I can't go on with her telling me that she's not sure what she wants to do. It's getting ridiculous.


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## ABHale

So the start of all of this was her cutting you out of her life for a year. 

What did she do during that year?

Sorry, but with what she is doing now, is it possible that she had a affair during that year?

One thing is true, you need to thing of your son. Do you bring him up in a marriage where his mom treats his dad like crap or does he see what true happiness is if you find someone else. He sees more then you think. He is learning everyday that this is what a marriage is.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

Please don't start a duplicate thread. It won't add anything and will drag out the process. 
@MattMatt, @farsidejunky


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## Malaise

OP

Paragraphs please!


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## AtMyEnd

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

Sorry, I felt I needed to because I didn't tell the whole story. I am new to this and my situation has my head going in 20 different directions.


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## Keke24

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*



AtMyEnd said:


> Sorry, I felt I needed to because I didn't tell the whole story. I am new to this and my situation has my head going in 20 different directions.


If you felt you missed out stuff, fee free to just add it in with a new comment. Just like you did here. You can simply copy and paste this post in your other thread, easy.


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## anchorwatch

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

What are you doing about your health during this period of stress? Keeping your body healthy will help you think clearly. Are you sleeping and eating well? Don't underestimate it, exercise is your friend? You might even see your MD for something to take the edge off, if needed.


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## 225985

*Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

Zoloft for anti anxiety is a great med. a low dosage to take the edge off.

Hit the gym 3-5 times a week. Lift weights.


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## AtMyEnd

There were no signs of her having an affair during that year. We still went out together with friends, it was more like when she went to do things/hobbies that she enjoyed she never asked if I wanted to join her. The times when I asked her about why she did that, she would tell me that she just felt that I would've said no so she didn't bother. Other times that she went out without me and said she went out with friends, either her or one of her friends would usually post something on Facebook so there was evidence that she was where she said she was. There was the rare occasion where I could say I wasn't 100% sure if she was where she said she was, but like I said, that was rare. If anything was going on I don't think it could've been an affair, the frequency wasn't there. It was maybe only 3 times during the course of that year.

Through all of this, my biggest concern has been my son. I know he sees and hears more then anyone thinks. But I also know, just from typical little kid comments to his daddy, that he would be absolutely crushed if we did split. He had made a comment the other night when the 3 of us were laying in bed watching tv. I had to go to the bathroom and went to get up, he rolled over on top of me and said "You're not leaving. You're mine, I'm keeping you here forever and ever" I laughed and said "dude I need to pee", he said "Ok, well come right back". I almost cried when he said it, but the one thing that I thought of was that she was right there and heard it. If anything would give her a kick to want to start trying to work things out, I would hope it would be for his sake. I'm not saying we need to stay together for him, but we need to at least try to work on things. After 13 years of marriage, I can't think of breaking up because of 2 bad years that we really never did anything about.


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## AtMyEnd

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*

I have started working out again almost everyday. I hardly ever have a drink and most days I do eat well, some days I just don't have an appetite. Sleep goes back and forth depending on the day but for the most part I would say my sleep patterns are as normal as before. I am a smoker and that has gotten a little heavier at times through all this but like my sleep and appetite, it fluctuates depending on how things are going.


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## arbitrator

*Yeah, he's giving her royal advice alright!

Inclusive of even how to let her drawers hit the boudoir or hotel room floor!

My friend, nobody texts that much with a "love interest" without getting sexually suggestive!

She is trickle-truthing you with just enough garbage in letting you see the 10% of the "cheaters iceberg" that is protruding up out of the water, hoping that you'll never see the hidden 90% of it lying placidly beneath the wake! I regret to say that with all of the facts that you laid out, the probability of a PA on their part is just way too high!

So if you remotely think that things are just peachy over in La-La Land, you have to be delusional! Now is the time that you should be hiring a good detective to watch her every move and to do as much recon on her paramour barrister! 

Even with the EA alone, it's already bad enough that you should be contacting this rectum's wife about it, as well as turning him in to his boss about all of these sordid ongoings! And if I were you, I'd be visiting a good "piranha" family lawyer all on my own to advise me of my legal options!

I've lived this out, my friend! You're listening to the voice of experience!

Please don't be a fool or an ostrich before you let things get way too out-of-hand!*


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## MattMatt

*Re: Need Your Thoughts (Amended)*



anchorwatch said:


> Please don't start a duplicate thread. It won't add anything and will drag out the process.
> 
> @MattMatt, @farsidejunky


Thanks for the notification, @anchorwatch.

I have merged the two threads. A first time, for me! And it worked out OK!


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## 225985

MattMatt said:


> Thanks for the notification, @anchorwatch.
> 
> I have merged the two threads. A first time, for me! And it worked out OK!




Thanks Matt. That is a big help to OP and us.


AT, Arb is right about the trickle truth. No one admits everything until see the proof in your hands and even then half the cheaters will still deny it. 

"We are just friends ". Yeah, right. Friends that **** or talk about ****ing.


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## curious234

How is your intimacy level during the two year disconnect and afterwards and now? Why are you allowing your wife to go out whenever she wish and want without telling you? It seems you are submissive partner? You should confront the pos OM without telling your wife. Your being assertive and not submissive will alert your wife and also will make thing happen to your advantage (read the straight shooter comments about swift action in the wife had 6 month emotional affair thread you have written to). Does your wife show any concern/care about your feeling stress because of her actions


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## AtMyEnd

Unfortunately, since we never really addressed the original problems at the beginning, things have already gotten out of hand. Like I had said about her first texting incident, I really don't believe that things got physical. Know who the guy was and what he looked like, the chances of that really were less than likely. I'm not saying it was impossible, as at this point I really don't feel I know who she is anymore, but even given everything I know about it and the way our relationship has been I would be really really surprised. As far as the guy I found out about recently, I do believe the chances of a physical affair are much higher. But like I had said about this latest one, I haven't seen the opportunity for a physical affair to be happening unless she's skipping out on work to see him. And given that he's a teacher and in school most of the afternoon, I just don't see the time for a physical affair. She's not out late after work and she hasn't been out on the weekends without me or without one of the friends or her posting something on social media proving that she is where she said she was. When I was looking through her texts with him I also saw one asking about where he had been because she hadn't heard from him in about two months. So like I said, there are things that yes it's a physical affair and things that say no, it's not likely a physical affair. Which is why I'm having such a hard time digesting all of this.


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## AtMyEnd

Our intimacy level was ok at the beginning, not great but ok. It has dropped off in the last few months to non existent now. The last few times she wanted to have sex, she passed out drunk. Her drinking has increased greatly over the last few months and has become another problem that I have been addressing frequently. As I had said, she doesn't go out whenever she wishes or without telling me, she actually only goes out once a month or so with friends. The rest of the time she's out with me or she's home. I have confronted the OM about the message he sent. He said that nothing has ever happened and that they've never seen each other off the volleyball court. I asked him if there had ever been other messages like the one I saw and he said that there may have been a couple but nothing like the last one. That mostly they just texted about life and family and flirted but nothing directly sexual. Do I believe him?, not 100%, but like I said the other messages that I looked through were not sexual or even flirty. That's why I said that there's reason to believe yes and reason to believe it was just texting.


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## 225985

I was married to a teacher for 20 years. They have off hours. Plenty of time for a hookup


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## AtMyEnd

I am not a submissive person. My dominance is something that usually starts the arguments. But I also know and have learned over our 13 years of marriage that direct confrontation on anything puts her in full defensive mode almost completely shutting down. We're both very strong minded and stubborn people. That is why I wrote the letter I wrote to her talking about all our problems including this OM. I let all my feelings be known and I gave ways we could work on things to try and work things out and improve our relationship. I figured that since she always goes on the defensive, as do I, that this was the best way to get things across with arguing half way through the conversation. I gave her the letter a couple days telling her to read it, think about everything and then we'll talk. We have had some family things going on since I gave it to her and now she's away with my son, two of her friends and their kids being that schools closed. I didn't go with them because of work but I was invited. When they left I quietly asked her if she got the letter. She said she did and that we'd talk when she gets back which will be later this week. That's one of the reasons I've turned to this forum. I have confronted her and I plan to again when we talk. All I want to hear is the truth, no matter what it is. But at the same time I know if I push too much that she'll just shut down and the conversation will be totally unproductive. I don't want to get divorced and I actually don't believe she does either. I think if that was her goal that it would've happened already, as do her friends. But I need answers as to what she's thinking and why. If she doesn't want to be together that's fine, so we end it. I've come to terms that that's a very good possibility at this point. I would think that since she's been caught twice now that if that's what she really wanted that would be her choice, but it doesn't seem to be. And I don't understand why she would want to keep living a life where she's constantly sneaking around and hiding things knowing that I'm suspicious and watching her. Like really, who would want to live like that? It just doesn't make sense to me.


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## AtMyEnd

I know teachers have off hours but my point is that with her job and schedule she doesn't, or at least not enough to make an affair work. I know that sounds like I'm in denial but I'm just thinking logically about it.


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## Lostinthought61

what you clearly have here is a break down of trust, and she is using her legal skills to work overtime on you..so you have a couple options here...you can go via the back do from a technical arena, via a VAR in her vehicle, you can try to gain access to phone and make a copy of it. the second option is to tell he that you have no trust in her anymore and if she wants to save this marriage she has to be come to face with her ownership in this matter...and just file.

Marriage counseling is not going to work if she is lying and being deceitful


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## arbitrator

*Thank God, I've never seen fit to ever cheat on anybody who I was involved with in marriage or a relationship with!

But in my courtship days, judging strictly from memory, it didn't exactly take a plethora of time from the time that the sexual hint was firmly made by either of us, up through the time that the act was actually consummated and completed!

To wit, it doesn't really require a great deal of time and planning for two horny bodies to have sex, undressing/redressing, post-coital cuddling and "sweet nothings," included!*


----------



## AtMyEnd

I have told her that I've lost all trust in her. I've told her how she's done what she's done and I've done what I've done and she needs to just own it like I did. I told her that if she does want to really try and work on things, that she needs to make an effort. Her view on it the last year has been to just "see what happens". Well that hasn't worked so it's time for a new plan. But before that new plan can start she needs to make a decision on if she actually wants to.

She usually goes to bed before I do so when I go up I always look to see if her phone is unlocked like it was when I found the messages. That's the only way I'll get into the phone. I do have a vehicle tracker but I haven't been using it long and it hasn't shown anything suspicious yet. I tried counseling last year. You could tell she didn't want to be there and as cordial as she was being I knew she wasn't being totally open. Then after the third session she told me that she wasn't going anymore because she didn't believe in it.

I'm not an idiot and I'm not living in complete denial. I know what I've seen, texts, phone records, behavior, reactions, responses, all of it. I do see the big picture and what will most likely be the end result. My problem is that I do love her, I love our family dynamic, in social settings we do get along and have fun, and no, I don't want that to end.


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## AtMyEnd

arbitrator said:


> *Thank God, I've never seen fit to ever cheat on anybody who I was involved with in marriage or a relationship with!
> 
> But in my courtship days, judging strictly from memory, it didn't exactly take a plethora of time from the time that the sexual hint was firmly made by either of us, up through the time that the act was actually consummated and completed!
> 
> To wit, it doesn't really require a great deal of time and planning for two horny bodies to have sex, undressing/redressing, post-coital cuddling and "sweet nothings," included!*


Honestly with the amount of time that they would have if they were sneaking around with the free time that she does have, I'd feel sorry for her that he's that quick, lol.


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## Tobyboy

Are these OMs married? If they are, have you exposed to their wifes/SO?


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## 225985

AtMyEnd said:


> I know teachers have off hours but my point is that with her job and schedule she doesn't, or at least not enough to make an affair work. I know that sounds like I'm in denial but I'm just thinking logically about it.




I read the first sentence and thought he is in denial. Then I read the second. 

Don't equate affair with long hours in bed at a fancy hotel. 

How long does it take for a bj?


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## 225985

.


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## curious234

It is usually that wives complain that there is not enough together time because of the careers. Looks like without addressing your concerns she is bloating about the importance of her career. Is your career on par with hers? Again does she show concern / empathy about your state of mind because of her attitudes (hopefully addressed through the letter). Otherwise I think you have to (if you do not want to separate) accept a marriage of convenience and seek your own happiness. Feeling depressed and pain is self defeating, specially if the wife does not care. Do not forget to keep up with your affairs like health, your career and career improvement. Right now from what you says you should consider your future and well being first. Her refusal to show texts is not acceptable.


----------



## heartbroken50

AtMyEnd said:


> Unfortunately, since we never really addressed the original problems at the beginning, things have already gotten out of hand. Like I had said about her first texting incident, I really don't believe that things got physical. Know who the guy was and what he looked like, the chances of that really were less than likely. I'm not saying it was impossible, as at this point I really don't feel I know who she is anymore, but even given everything I know about it and the way our relationship has been I would be really really surprised. As far as the guy I found out about recently, I do believe the chances of a physical affair are much higher. But like I had said about this latest one, I haven't seen the opportunity for a physical affair to be happening unless she's skipping out on work to see him. And given that he's a teacher and in school most of the afternoon, I just don't see the time for a physical affair. She's not out late after work and she hasn't been out on the weekends without me or without one of the friends or her posting something on social media proving that she is where she said she was. When I was looking through her texts with him I also saw one asking about where he had been because she hadn't heard from him in about two months. So like I said, there are things that yes it's a physical affair and things that say no, it's not likely a physical affair. Which is why I'm having such a hard time digesting all of this.




I understand your need to verify if things went physical with OM. I had that same need... even had my H take a polygraph to verify he was being truthful about that.

The trouble is, the trust is still broken, and a marriage without trust isn't a real marriage anymore.

If she's unwilling to own her behavior, you really cannot have a true R. This is what happened in my marriage. He agreed to let me monitor his phone, but frankly I found it humiliating that I had to do that and it made me resent him. 

Since he never wanted to address our issues, we have not been able to repair things. Due to extenuating circumstances, I have forgiven him... but I will never forget and can never trust. Our marriage is a roommate arrangement and very stressful. 

I fantasize about getting out every day, and not because of the original hurt he caused me with his online affair... but because he has no remorse and no willingness to repair what has been broken. THAT is what I cannot forgive.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AtMyEnd

blueinbr said:


> I read the first sentence and thought he is in denial. Then I read the second.
> 
> Don't equate affair with long hours in bed at a fancy hotel.
> 
> How long does it take for a bj?


I know it doesn't have to be long hours at a fancy hotel, but drive time, her schedule, and the time that she gets home it just doesn't add up. Yes, it's entirely possible but it just doesn't seem realistic. It's not like she's out late after work or on the weekends.


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## Blondilocks

Well, I'm confused. Is your wife a teacher or an attorney?


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## AtMyEnd

heartbroken50 said:


> I understand your need to verify if things went physical with OM. I had that same need... even had my H take a polygraph to verify he was being truthful about that.
> 
> The trouble is, the trust is still broken, and a marriage without trust isn't a real marriage anymore.
> 
> If she's unwilling to own her behavior, you really cannot have a true R. This is what happened in my marriage. He agreed to let me monitor his phone, but frankly I found it humiliating that I had to do that and it made me resent him.
> 
> Since he never wanted to address our issues, we have not been able to repair things. Due to extenuating circumstances, I have forgiven him... but I will never forget and can never trust. Our marriage is a roommate arrangement and very stressful.
> 
> I fantasize about getting out every day, and not because of the original hurt he caused me with his online affair... but because he has no remorse and no willingness to repair what has been broken. THAT is what I cannot forgive.
> 
> 
> Those are the exact feelings I'm feeling right now. I've worked up all my finances to be on my own including what child support would be. I've actively looked at apartments, I've done all the leg work to be ready to be on my own again. But there is still that hope I guess that she will finally open up and want to try and work on things. I've told her in the past that I know there's no guarantee that things will work out but we owe it to ourselves, our 13 years of marriage, and our son to at least try everything we can before we say "ok, it's just not going to work", and she just can't seem to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AtMyEnd

Blondilocks said:


> Well, I'm confused. Is your wife a teacher or an attorney?


My wife is an attorney and the OM is a teacher.


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## AtMyEnd

curious234 said:


> It is usually that wives complain that there is not enough together time because of the careers. Looks like without addressing your concerns she is bloating about the importance of her career. Is your career on par with hers? Again does she show concern / empathy about your state of mind because of her attitudes (hopefully addressed through the letter). Otherwise I think you have to (if you do not want to separate) accept a marriage of convenience and seek your own happiness. Feeling depressed and pain is self defeating, specially if the wife does not care. Do not forget to keep up with your affairs like health, your career and career improvement. Right now from what you says you should consider your future and well being first. Her refusal to show texts is not acceptable.


Her career is more demanding then mine. However I think she makes it more demanding then she needs to. She is still a young attorney, only practicing around 7 years, and she constantly feels she needs to prove herself. One of my problems is that I wish she would feel the same need to prove herself to me. Any time I talk about bad days or stresses in my career, she compares them with what she has on her plate. This is another thing that has always bothered me, we're not in completion but she always makes it seem that we are.

I consider my future and well being all the time, but I put my son's future and well being before mine. I don't want him growing up without me around all the time, it would crush him if I wasn't there. And I don't know if he would really understand why I wasn't there. I also think, although I would hope she never would, but I think that she might play it off to him that I wasn't there because I didn't want to be there anymore. If it weren't for my son, this would all be a fairly easy decision. But adding him and his feelings to the equation really puts a lot more stress on things


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## AtMyEnd

Tobyboy said:


> Are these OMs married? If they are, have you exposed to their wifes/SO?


I know the first one was married. I did search out his wife on social media and thought about sending her copies of the text logs just asking what she thought about it. But like I said, I truly feel that that one never went physical and after our big blowout over it, I did see that the texts stopped. Her data usage went up for about 2 weeks but then went back to normal, so I know that she did still text with him on WhatsApp, but I know that it did stop. After a month of seeing she wasn't texting with him anymore I didn't feel the need to contact the wife. They have a disabled son, like seriously disabled, I honestly felt bad for his wife. I knew for sure that he and my wife weren't talking anymore and there was no reason to risk destroying his marriage and leaving the wife as the sole caretaker of the disabled son.

The last OM, I'm not 100% sure if he's married. I know he was married and has a child. I have met this man, played in a volleyball league against him and have had drinks with him in a group. I'm 99% sure that I did see a ring on his finger. The problem is that I don't know his last name. I've looked on my wife's friend list on Facebook and the lists of other friends of his that I know from volleyball and I don't see him so investigating him is a little difficult.


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## 225985

curious234 said:


> It is usually that wives complain that there is not enough together time because of the careers. Looks like without addressing your concerns she is bloating about the importance of her career. Is your career on par with hers? Again does she show concern / empathy about your state of mind because of her attitudes (hopefully addressed through the letter). Otherwise I think you have to (if you do not want to separate) accept a marriage of convenience and seek your own happiness. Feeling depressed and pain is self defeating, specially if the wife does not care. Do not forget to keep up with your affairs like health, your career and career improvement. Right now from what you says you should consider your future and well being first. Her refusal to show texts is not acceptable.




You are right. There is only one reason to not show the texts. To protect her ass. She knows the texts are damaging. By not showing them she is putting herself and the OM ahead of OP and their marriage.


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## 225985

AtMyEnd said:


> I know the first one was married. I did search out his wife on social media and thought about sending her copies of the text logs just asking what she thought about it. But like I said, I truly feel that that one never went physical and after our big blowout over it, I did see that the texts stopped. Her data usage went up for about 2 weeks but then went back to normal, so I know that she did still text with him on WhatsApp, but I know that it did stop. After a month of seeing she wasn't texting with him anymore I didn't feel the need to contact the wife. They have a disabled son, like seriously disabled, I honestly felt bad for his wife. I knew for sure that he and my wife weren't talking anymore and there was no reason to risk destroying his marriage and leaving the wife as the sole caretaker of the disabled son.
> 
> 
> 
> The last OM, I'm not 100% sure if he's married. I know he was married and has a child. I have met this man, played in a volleyball league against him and have had drinks with him in a group. I'm 99% sure that I did see a ring on his finger. The problem is that I don't know his last name. I've looked on my wife's friend list on Facebook and the lists of other friends of his that I know from volleyball and I don't see him so investigating him is a little difficult.




It's quite simple. You ask your wife for his full name. Without that there can be no reconciliation.


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## AtMyEnd

blueinbr said:


> You are right. There is only one reason to not show the texts. To protect her ass. She knows the texts are damaging. By not showing them she is putting herself and the OM ahead of OP and their marriage.


I know. The other thing that I know is that over the past year, when she talks to her or our friends about our relationship she doesn't tell them the whole story. She tells them enough about a problem that makes it look like I was the cause of the problem. I caught her doing this once, I walked up behind her one night and heard exactly what she said and called her out on it in front of the person she was talking to. Her explanation, "That's just how I feel". So yes I think she's not showing the texts because she wants to protect her own ass, but I don't think she's trying to only protect her ass from any incriminating texts with these men. I think she's also afraid of me seeing what she's told people about our relationship and how she twists things to make me look like the bad guy. Talking with two of her best friends about this recent incident I realized that even more. After them hearing my side of things that have happened I was told by them how after talking to me they were confused about the whole thing, and that they feel like they don't know who she is anymore. Like the whole situation is just odd at every level. It's clear that she's hiding things from everyone, including her friends. From what I know, she still hasn't told her parents that we've been having problems at all.


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## AtMyEnd

blueinbr said:


> It's quite simple. You ask your wife for his full name. Without that there can be no reconciliation.


The way I look at that at this point is what's the difference? I saw what I saw, I know who it was with and I do personally know the guy. All asking her detailed information about him is going to do is set her off and be counter productive. If I really need, I know where to find the guy. Whether she want to admit and own what she did doesn't really matter, we both know something happened. She knows what I've seen and she knows I have a picture of her phone showing it. I just what the lies and the secrecy to stop and see if we can do something to fix our relationship if for no other reason that my son grows up in a house with both parents present.


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## curious234

"Those are the exact feelings I'm feeling right now. I've worked up all my finances to be on my own including what child support would be. I've actively looked at apartments, I've done all the leg work to be ready to be on my own again. But there is still that hope I guess that she will finally open up and want to try and work on things. I've told her in the past that I know there's no guarantee that things will work out but we owe it to ourselves, our 13 years of marriage, and our son to at least try everything we can before we say "ok, it's just not going to work", and she just can't seem to do that."

It seems you think or do not want to take primary custody of your child. If D happen I think you can develop (with a lawyer) a case for primary custody based on all the case details and how little time your wife would have outside her career


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## farsidejunky

She is neck-deep in this affair.

You know this, yet you are latching on to denial in order to avoid taking action because you're afraid it will end your marriage.

Nothing changes until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.


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## Malaise

farsidejunky said:


> She is neck-deep in this affair.
> 
> You know this, yet you are latching on to denial in order to avoid taking action because* you're afraid it will end your marriage.
> *
> Nothing changes until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.


Isn't the marriage just about done anyway?


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## AtMyEnd

curious234 said:


> "Those are the exact feelings I'm feeling right now. I've worked up all my finances to be on my own including what child support would be. I've actively looked at apartments, I've done all the leg work to be ready to be on my own again. But there is still that hope I guess that she will finally open up and want to try and work on things. I've told her in the past that I know there's no guarantee that things will work out but we owe it to ourselves, our 13 years of marriage, and our son to at least try everything we can before we say "ok, it's just not going to work", and she just can't seem to do that."
> 
> It seems you think or do not want to take primary custody of your child. If D happen I think you can develop (with a lawyer) a case for primary custody based on all the case details and how little time your wife would have outside her career


I agree but I also think that would cause a lot of problems in the post marital relationship. Whether we stay together or split, we're still going to be in each others lives for the next 12 years or so because of our son. It'll be hard enough on him if we split, it'll be even worse if there's more animosity, tension and hate over custody. I just don't feel that fighting for full custody is worth the effect it could have on him.


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## AtMyEnd

farsidejunky said:


> She is neck-deep in this affair.
> 
> You know this, yet you are latching on to denial in order to avoid taking action because you're afraid it will end your marriage.
> 
> Nothing changes until you get sick and tired of being sick and tired.


I'm not in denial, I know it happened. As far as how far it went, I have no solid proof. I have seen texts from a week or to ago asking where he'd been because she hadn't heard from him in a month or so. I have taken action but I want to be really careful about how it all effects my son. I know it sounds dumb but I value him and his feelings much more then I value my own. But I am at the point where if I don't get answers when we talk next, I am letting her know and I'm getting a lawyer involved. Even if I don't follow through with the divorce, maybe the reality of the lawyer involved and the real threat of divorce will change something. All of her friends have told me that they know she doesn't want to get a divorce, which is what makes all of this make even less sense


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## AtMyEnd

Malaise said:


> Isn't the marriage just about done anyway?


It is, it hasn't felt like a marriage in over a year. But after 13 years of marriage, 15 years together, building a life, a home and a family, I don't feel that 2 bad years are worth throwing it all away without at least an effort on both parts. If ultimately we do split, at the very least we can say we tried. And regardless of any of that, we'll still be in each other's lives for at least the next 12 years because of our son. Why still have the same animosity and tension that we have now then.


----------



## Malaise

AtMyEnd said:


> It is, it hasn't felt like a marriage in over a year. But after 13 years of marriage, 15 years together, building a life, a home and a family, I don't feel that 2 bad years are worth throwing it all away without at least an effort on both parts. If ultimately we do split, *at the very least we can say we tried*. And regardless of any of that, we'll still be in each other's lives for at least the next 12 years because of our son. Why still have the same animosity and tension that we have now then.


But, she isn't trying, is she?


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## curious234

If she do not feel or do not care how this affect you, either she is narcissistic or she has no feelings for you. From your last response it seems like you are following what Cam did in his thread (6 month emotional affair ..). It will shock your wife in to reality (if she really want the marriage) and tell you all the details about her affairs. Any how do not leave home under any circumstances. It should be the offending partner who should leave if it come to that. I know a friend who did that under some what similar circumstances and his feelings went from bad to worse as wife had all the freedom to do whatever she wanted


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## AtMyEnd

Malaise said:


> But, she isn't trying, is she?


No, she hasn't been. Her proposal has been to just keep going and see if things fell back into place. For the most part things have been good over the last 5-6 months. It was only the last month or so that I noticed her withdrawing herself again and I don't know why. I don't know what happened to make her withdraw again, all she tells me when I ask is that she's tired. Her friends don't know why either or understand. All I'm looking for is an understanding of what's going on. And although her friends have told me that she doesn't want to get divorced, if that's what she really does want, fine. Just tell me, at least that would make sense.


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## Lostinthought61

those words from her, can be translated as the following...if this thing does not work out with this guy then there is always Plan B...namely you.


----------



## AtMyEnd

curious234 said:


> If she do not feel or do not care how this affect you, either she is narcissistic or she has no feelings for you. From your last response it seems like you are following what Cam did in his thread (6 month emotional affair ..). It will shock your wife in to reality (if she really want the marriage) and tell you all the details about her affairs. Any how do not leave home under any circumstances. It should be the offending partner who should leave if it come to that. I know a friend who did that under some what similar circumstances and his feelings went from bad to worse as wife had all the freedom to do whatever she wanted


I don't plan on going anywhere unless it's due to a separation agreement or divorce. When things first got bad she did ask me to leave for a week because she felt she needed some time alone, and I did. When I came back things were good. There was no fighting or arguments, but there was also no talk of our problems. There was talk about me possibly leaving again when I first came back "If she felt she needed more time", and I told her no, that the only way I was leaving again would be when the papers were signed.


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## AtMyEnd

Xenote said:


> those words from her, can be translated as the following...if this thing does not work out with this guy then there is always Plan B...namely you.


Trust me, I know that and have thought about that. As much as don't want to think like that, I know it exists. But either way I need a resolution to all of this. If she's not going to open and honest about things she'll be served with divorce papers and we'll go from there.


----------



## Blondilocks

Stop talking to her friends. They are her friends and not yours. Besides, it makes you look pathetic.

If you really wanted to know the guys name, all you would have to do is get on the phone to one of your volleyball buds and ask and if they didn't know, their wife would.

You two need to stop talking to others and start talking to each other. She doesn't want to talk and just wants to take a 'wait & see' stance? Have her served. Guarantee that will loosen her tongue. Insist on marriage counseling. Insist on setting up boundaries for the both of you.


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## AtMyEnd

Blondilocks said:


> Stop talking to her friends. They are her friends and not yours. Besides, it makes you look pathetic.
> 
> If you really wanted to know the guys name, all you would have to do is get on the phone to one of your volleyball buds and ask and if they didn't know, their wife would.
> 
> You two need to stop talking to others and start talking to each other. She doesn't want to talk and just wants to take a 'wait & see' stance? Have her served. Guarantee that will loosen her tongue. Insist on marriage counseling. Insist on setting up boundaries for the both of you.


I've always talked to her friends from time to time on things about us so it's not like I'm begging them for help. The issue with his last name is that I'm not friends with anyone on his team. Yes I know them and we all hang around after games but I don't have their numbers to call. We tried counseling, she lasted 3 sessions before she said she wasn't going back because she didn't believe in it. We are going to talk this week about things. Depending on how that goes, it's a strong chance she will get served. As far as boundaries, we need to straighten things out and be on a somewhat level playing field first


----------



## Blondilocks

"I've always talked to her friends from time to time on things about us so it's not like I'm begging them for help." Again, stop this. They are not in your marriage. Do you call her mom and sisters, too?

"The issue with his last name is that I'm not friends with anyone on his team." Are you friends with anyone on your team?


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## AtMyEnd

Blondilocks said:


> "I've always talked to her friends from time to time on things about us so it's not like I'm begging them for help." Again, stop this. They are not in your marriage. Do you call her mom and sisters, too?
> 
> "The issue with his last name is that I'm not friends with anyone on his team." Are you friends with anyone on your team?


I am friends with the people on my team. The issue is that they know these people because of my wife, they're not friends with them. Like me they only hang around after games with the crowd. And to add to that, my wife is the one who started our team. It's made up of people she works with, her friends and their husbands. Any snooping around in the volleyball crowd for info would get back to my wife. And not only that, it would most likely end with no results as the only people who would have the information I want are his friends


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## anchorwatch

AtMyEnd said:


> No, she hasn't been. Her proposal has been to just keep going and see if things fell back into place.


Things just don't fall back into place. You both have to work at it. Do you even know what a marriage looks like? Basic Concepts


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## Snowflakes

Just the fact that she wouldnt let you read the messages is a proof shes hiding something that actually needs to be revealed. As said before she might be having an emotional affair


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## Malaise

Does the league have a roster of teams and players?


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## Haiku

Welcome! 

Can I interest you in discovering the healing power of paragraph breaks. 😆


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## AtMyEnd

anchorwatch said:


> Things just don't fall back into place. You both have to work at it. Do you even know what a marriage looks like? Basic Concepts


I know that things don't just fall back into place, that was her approach to it. I've been telling her over and over again that it takes an effort from both of us and she keeps saying that she doesn't know how she feels and that she's unsure about our relationship


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## AtMyEnd

Malaise said:


> Does the league have a roster of teams and players?


No, it's a very informal league. They only require the 2 names of the team captains. To me investigating this guy won't do any good and will only make her shutdown more if she finds out.


----------



## anchorwatch

AtMyEnd said:


> I know that things don't just fall back into place, that was her approach to it. I've been telling her over and over again that it takes an effort from both of us and she keeps saying that she doesn't know how she feels and that she's unsure about our relationship


Either she in or she's out. This isn't nuclear fusion. She is saying she doesn't know what she wants because she's not ready to leave yet. She doesn't see a sure thing right now. 

How long will you stay in this state of limbo, sitting around hoping she'll pick you. Soon you will have to choose too. If you don't she will. 

Do you want to live in a marriage where she keeps you as a roommate and gets emotionally fulfilled by other men?


----------



## AtMyEnd

So more interesting information that just adds to the question of what's going on with my wife and why is she thinking and acting the way she has been. I just spoke to her mother. Now I know that she hasn't said anything about our problems to her parents at all. And I would never say anything to them, although I have been thinking about it. But her mother told me that she hasn't returned any of her calls since last week, she used to speak to her everyday sometimes twice a day. She's an only child and her parents mean the world to her. I just don't understand what's going on in my wife's head right now


----------



## AtMyEnd

anchorwatch said:


> AtMyEnd said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that things don't just fall back into place, that was her approach to it. I've been telling her over and over again that it takes an effort from both of us and she keeps saying that she doesn't know how she feels and that she's unsure about our relationship
> 
> 
> 
> Either she in or she's out. This isn't nuclear fusion. She is saying she doesn't know what she wants because she's not ready to leave yet. She doesn't see a sure thing right now.
> 
> How long will you stay in this state of limbo, sitting around hoping she'll pick you. Soon you will have to choose too. If you don't she will.
> 
> Do you want to live in a marriage where she keeps you as a roommate and gets emotionally fulfilled by other men?
Click to expand...

I know she needs to make choice. I also know that I can't keep living like this. But there's still our son to consider. The last thing I want is him growing up without me around. If it wasn't for him, I'd most likely be gone by now


----------



## anchorwatch

AtMyEnd said:


> I know she needs to make choice. I also know that I can't keep living like this. But there's still our son to consider. The last thing I want is him growing up without me around. If it wasn't for him, I'd most likely be gone by now


I don't think you got it. It's up to you to decide, not her. 

It's up to all of us to decide our own fate. Never blame someone else for something you consented to live with.

Did you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


----------



## 225985

Haiku said:


> Welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> Can I interest you in discovering the healing power of paragraph breaks.




The guy's marriage is falling apart and you are posting about paragraph breaks? Give us a ****ing break. If it's too hard for you, don't read it.

Btw this was covered in post 19.


----------



## 225985

AME, since you cheated first, why wouldn't your wife feel justified in having her own special friend? Balance the scales?


----------



## Sparta

OP your story can't believe you're that gullible or naïve...


----------



## Blondilocks

"I took it out of her hand to put it on the night table and saw a texts asking how I was being. Taken back a little I looked at who it was from and wondered why she would be talking to him about our relationship. The guy was someone we both know but she has known longer."

She's talking to a guy about your relationship and you're taken back? Why, when you openly call her friends and talk about your relationship and you're thinking of calling her mom?

It seems there is a double standard at play. You had the EA so now you're projecting. Or, are you trying to get some dirt on her to even the playing field?


----------



## AtMyEnd

blueinbr said:


> AME, since you cheated first, why wouldn't your wife feel justified in having her own special friend? Balance the scales?


I agree, which is why the first time it happened I put it behind us after we spoke about it. We had talked about mine at great lengths, I told her and showed her everything she asked. And after talking about her first, I had to go with my gut that it never got physical. We both needed to put those behind us if there was going to be any chance of trying to fix things. And I did think about how she would've felt justified about it. But I know that very shortly after I confronted her about that one that it stopped. The number didn't show up on the text logs again, no new numbers were showing up that I didn't know, and her data usage went back to normal. Call it naïve or anything else, all of the previous indicators were gone, so I had no reason to think otherwise.

Now with this latest one, she's told me that she's not going to stop speaking to him because he is a friend. But that also could've just been said out of anger as I don't see any real suspicious activity on the phone records now. Her and my son have been away the past few days with friends because of school being closed so we haven't had a chance to have a real conversation about all of it, every time we've talked about it it's either been an argument or led to one. So it's going to all come down to the next conversation we have about it, what she says, her reactions and mannerisms while we're talking. But either way, everything that's been said so far has been out of anger or emotion. A decision to break up a family and everything we've built over the last 15 years needs to be made under calm or somewhat calm and understanding conditions.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Blondilocks said:


> "I took it out of her hand to put it on the night table and saw a texts asking how I was being. Taken back a little I looked at who it was from and wondered why she would be talking to him about our relationship. The guy was someone we both know but she has known longer."
> 
> She's talking to a guy about your relationship and you're taken back? Why, when you openly call her friends and talk about your relationship and you're thinking of calling her mom?
> 
> It seems there is a double standard at play. You had the EA so now you're projecting. Or, are you trying to get some dirt on her to even the playing field?


I openly called her friends about this incident yes. Typically it's more casual when I talk to her friends about us. More like when we get together in a group it will come up in conversation of how are things going. Yes I was taken back that she was talking to this guy about our relationship, he's not a close friend or even really portrayed as a close friend, he's a guy we hang around with at volleyball. If he was someone who knew both of us and has seen our interactions together and knew us, it would be different.

I'm not playing a double standard, I think it's more that since I had an EA, I know. I never meant to have one, casual conversation just led to it. I know first hand how it starts and what it can lead to so yes I'm a little more on guard about it. I know what I did was wrong, I regret what I did, and I'm the one who needs to live with that everyday. And yes, because of being upset and angry by all this I wanted to get as much dirt on the situation as possible, who wouldn't. Right now it's more about seeing what we can do to resolve all of it and try and save the marriage, and the family.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Sparta said:


> OP your story can't believe you're that gullible or naïve...


There's nothing gullible or naïve about it. I know from my own experiences how it starts and why it starts. I also know from my own EA that it is possible to not cross that line to a PA. In regards to my wife, I've seen what I've seen as far as evidence, her reactions and what she's said. I also know that everything that's been said about it so far as been while both of us were angry and emotional. Nothing rational ever comes out when emotions are taking over. Like I've said before, there's evidence that says this was a PA and there's evidence that says it was only a EA. Until we cool off and have a real talk about nothing can really be resolved. Yes I have doubts on if it was or wasn't a PA, which is why I'm not going to just throw away 15 years and a break up my family over a hunch, no matter how strong of a hunch it may be


----------



## 225985

The line is thin. I didn't cross over to PA but wanted to. 

Btw, is kissing a PA or do you define PA as PIV or BJ?


----------



## farsidejunky

Your entire problem is that you talk too much.

Talk less. Do more.


----------



## Lostinthought61

certainly that might be a question to ask your wife....what does she constitute a PA and EA....that is where a lot of debate between couples start....kissing a friend on the cheek is considered...friendly...kissing closed lips and on the lips...touch and go...but if you are exploring their tonsils...then that is a PA or is all kissing considered EA...have you asked her? and have you told her point blank that any PA is automatically divorce?


----------



## AtMyEnd

blueinbr said:


> The line is thin. I didn't cross over to PA but wanted to.
> 
> Btw, is kissing a PA or do you define PA as PIV or BJ?


Yes kissing would be a PA, you've crossed that line to physical intimate contact


----------



## AtMyEnd

farsidejunky said:


> Your entire problem is that you talk too much.
> 
> Talk less. Do more.


Without talking there isn't much you can do. There is no solid proof that there was a PA. It wouldn't hold up in divorce court as adultery. Yes I can file for divorce and not follow through to try and shock her into remorse but that's a last resort. If I push and push by doing something it'll only push her further away and nothing will ever be resolved. Splitting up or not, we're going to be in each others lives for at least 12 more years because of our son, and there's no reason there should be the same animosity and tension after a divorce that there was during our marriage


----------



## AtMyEnd

Xenote said:


> certainly that might be a question to ask your wife....what does she constitute a PA and EA....that is where a lot of debate between couples start....kissing a friend on the cheek is considered...friendly...kissing closed lips and on the lips...touch and go...but if you are exploring their tonsils...then that is a PA or is all kissing considered EA...have you asked her? and have you told her point blank that any PA is automatically divorce?


Right, when I first confronted her she was apologetic. The next conversation was heated and she told me that she did nothing wrong, it was only a text. Since every conversation turned into a fight, I decided to let things cool down a little before we speak again. But yes, I want to hear her explanation of why she feels she did nothing wrong. It's the same as what I did when I had a EA, I know, she knows that I know, she put me through the same thing.


----------



## anchorwatch

There is nothing wrong with a conversation. When one side stonewalls or tries to bully the other, it is no longer a conversation. Be prepared. Resentment will cause that. 

Good luck on your conversation. When does she come home?


----------



## AtMyEnd

anchorwatch said:


> There is nothing wrong with a conversation. When one side stonewalls or tries to bully the other, it is no longer a conversation.


Which is why I chose to have a cool down period before the conversation. Worst case is we get divorced. Do I want that, no, but I am ready for that. But I'm not about to break up my family and throw away the last 15 years of my life basically on a hunch. That's not being gullible, naïve or anything else. It's being level headed and realistic. Open ended threats, ultimatums or demanding she do or change something will only push her further away. If she really what's to fix things, she'll do it on her own, and there will be signs either way. My guard is not being let down at all, but showing her my guard is up won't make things any easier either. She knows me and she knows the way I am, she knows I'll be watching. We'll just have to see how it goes.


----------



## ButtPunch

AtMyEnd said:


> I know she needs to make choice. I also know that I can't keep living like this. But there's still our son to consider. The last thing I want is him growing up without me around. If it wasn't for him, I'd most likely be gone by now


She don't need to make a choice.....You do!


----------



## farsidejunky

AtMyEnd said:


> Without talking there isn't much you can do. There is no solid proof that there was a PA. It wouldn't hold up in divorce court as adultery. Yes I can file for divorce and not follow through to try and shock her into remorse but that's a last resort. If I push and push by doing something it'll only push her further away and nothing will ever be resolved. Splitting up or not, we're going to be in each others lives for at least 12 more years because of our son, and there's no reason there should be the same animosity and tension after a divorce that there was during our marriage


Ah, the rationalization hamster.

It allows our fear to lead us to inaction.

If you keep doing what you are doing, you will keep getting what you are getting.


----------



## farsidejunky

AtMyEnd said:


> Which is why I chose to have a cool down period before the conversation. Worst case is we get divorced. Do I want that, no, but I am ready for that. But I'm not about to break up my family and throw away the last 15 years of my life basically on a hunch. That's not being gullible, naïve or anything else. It's being level headed and realistic. Open ended threats, ultimatums or demanding she do or change something will only push her further away. If she really what's to fix things, she'll do it on her own, and there will be signs either way. My guard is not being let down at all, but showing her my guard is up won't make things any easier either. She knows me and she knows the way I am, she knows I'll be watching. We'll just have to see how it goes.


No, worst case is not divorce.

Worst case is you continuing to share your wife.


----------



## AtMyEnd

farsidejunky said:


> No, worst case is not divorce.
> 
> Worst case is you continuing to share your wife.


No, worst case is divorce. I've had and have been caught having an EA. I've caught her now twice, and I've caught her early on into them. I know the signs and I know what to look for, and even though I'm staying rational about it all, I'm not letting my guard down. If I find the slightest evidence of one again, there'll be no talking about it. That will be the end. We all make mistakes in life, some bigger then others. I've made mine and she's made hers. But not having any real evidence of a PA, jumping straight to divorce is tough since there are no legal grounds on emotional affairs.


----------



## AtMyEnd

ButtPunch said:


> She don't need to make a choice.....You do!


I can't make the choice for her of whether she wants to talk about things or try to work them out, only she can do that. I've made my choice, it's either we talk about everything while being completely open and honest and we both actively try to work on things or we divorce. Those are her options and she needs to pick one. Sure talking and trying to fix things may still lead to divorce but only time will tell.


----------



## farsidejunky

AtMyEnd said:


> No, worst case is divorce. I've had and have been caught having an EA. I've caught her now twice, and I've caught her early on into them. I know the signs and I know what to look for, and even though I'm staying rational about it all, I'm not letting my guard down. If I find the slightest evidence of one again, there'll be no talking about it. That will be the end. We all make mistakes in life, some bigger then others. I've made mine and she's made hers. But not having any real evidence of a PA, jumping straight to divorce is tough since there are no legal grounds on emotional affairs.


Make no mistake; it is ongoing.

You are sharing your wife.

If that is a more acceptable outcome to you than divorce, nothing anyone says here will help you.


----------



## AtMyEnd

farsidejunky said:


> Make no mistake; it is ongoing.
> 
> You are sharing your wife.
> 
> If that is a more acceptable outcome to you than divorce, nothing anyone says here will help you.


That's the thing, I know that the first one stopped. The number stopped showing up on her phone records and her data usage went back to normal. The second one was discovered just last week. Since the confrontation, her phone records have gone back to normal usage. I know the indicators, that's why I suspected and discovered the second. If it happens again, yes I'm done. The problem with divorce over a EA is there's no legal grounds for it and could cause issues when it comes to property and custody battles.


----------



## Lostinthought61

as long as you do nothing...no VAR in her car, nothing she will continue, there is not line in the sand, there is only a small appeasement on her end that means absolutely nothing...your confrontation skills are weak because she stone walls you and diverts the communications...so again what are you waiting for? for her to stop...why should she, if she tells you its just a friend, then why hide the text...the only reason to do so is to keep the conversation between the two silent...at this point...call the wife of the guy and tell her your concern...that will blow up things fast.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Xenote said:


> as long as you do nothing...no VAR in her car, nothing she will continue, there is not line in the sand, there is only a small appeasement on her end that means absolutely nothing...your confrontation skills are weak because she stone walls you and diverts the communications...so again what are you waiting for? for her to stop...why should she, if she tells you its just a friend, then why hide the text...the only reason to do so is to keep the conversation between the two silent...at this point...call the wife of the guy and tell her your concern...that will blow up things fast.


That will also blow things up to the point of her completely shutting down. If that happens, nothing will be resolved or accomplished. There is already GPS on the car and has been for some time with no suspicious activity and I monitor her cell usage very closely. I know what's been going on, I've had my own EA and been caught. I know there are incriminating texts, either about the affair or about me and that's why she won't show me. But the fact still remains that out of everything I've seen, heard and whatever, there is no evidence of a PA. And as much as divorce may be completely warranted, there are no legal grounds for it. If I were the one to file then it's me wanting out of the marriage, which means my rights to property, custody and everything else drop considerably. At this point I need to just see what happens and how things go, play the game smart. All filing for divorce with no real proof and no mutual agreement from her will do is hurt me financial and emotionally because of my son, not to mention hurt him by putting him through it.


----------



## Lostinthought61

So what about placing a VAR in her car, if they are talking on the phone it will capture the conversations? let's talk about that potential blow-up, play it out here, she get mad that you talked to his wife and she decides to divorce you...so then your not the one getting out of the marriage....tell me something in yourEA did she talk to the OM husband ?

this waiting to see game is stupid and leaves your hands completely exposed, if anything you should be spending your time trying to grab as much evidence as you can, real evidence.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Xenote said:


> So what about placing a VAR in her car, if they are talking on the phone it will capture the conversations? let's talk about that potential blow-up, play it out here, she get mad that you talked to his wife and she decides to divorce you...so then your not the one getting out of the marriage....tell me something in yourEA did she talk to the OM husband ?
> 
> this waiting to see game is stupid and leaves your hands completely exposed, if anything you should be spending your time trying to grab as much evidence as you can, real evidence.[/
> 
> 
> They don't talk on the phone, she hardly talks on the phone with anyone, it's all text. The woman I had an EA with was not married, and when I was caught and admitted to everything I gave her the woman's name and email address. I told her to contact her if she wanted but she never did. And in all honesty, I'd rather have my hands completely exposed then tied behind my back.


----------



## curious234

AtMyEnd,
Is it possible that your wife is still justifying all her garbage to your EA? You are not that emotionally connected to your wife right? If that is the case and you want the status core (for the sake of your son) Is it possible for you to behave like her and have the marriage unofficially like an open one


----------



## AtMyEnd

curious234 said:


> AtMyEnd,
> Is it possible that your wife is still justifying all her garbage to your EA? You are not that emotionally connected to your wife right? If that is the case and you want the status core (for the sake of your son) Is it possible for you to behave like her and have the marriage unofficially like an open one


Since I got over getting caught in my own EA, and yes I say got over, I did start to emotionally reconnect with her. Even though it I was emotionally connected to her, just not as much. And she very well may be justifying her own actions because of mine. The one thing about my EA, was there was never any expectation or even idea that we would ever actually meet in real life, I met her playing an online virtual reality game, she lives 1000 miles away and she's a single mom with a young kid. I looked at the whole affair as just a way of having that feeling of love and being wanted that I wasn't getting from my wife. And yes as things progressed I did think about wanting to see her, but also realized how that would be nearly impossible given the circumstances. When my wife found out about my EA, I explained all of this to her and she did seem to understand my points. I never said that anything I did was right or that my reasoning was even right, but that was my thinking at the time. I didn't feel I was being unfaithful to my marriage because there was nothing physical about my affair. What bothers me about hers the most is that even though she says there was nothing physical, which may be true because from what I can tell I found out about it in the early stages of it, being that we live within a 30-40 minute drive from him, the chance of it becoming physical was 100% there. If it had gone on long enough, everyone knows that talk leads to feelings, feelings lead to thoughts and it just snowballs from there. But honestly I don't think I would've or could've followed through with a PA if mine had lead in that direction. And because of that I wouldn't feel comfortable in an open marriage. I mean if that was the case, I wouldn't be here.


----------



## ButtPunch

Look here....you ended your EA immediately.

She refuses too. 

We see how you are spinning this.

Remember I was you once.


----------



## AtMyEnd

ButtPunch said:


> Look here....you ended your EA immediately.
> 
> She refuses too.
> 
> We see how you are spinning this.
> 
> Remember I was you once.


Yes I ended mine right away. But from what I can see on cell phone records, she hasn't spoken to him since shortly after the confrontation. Whether they have just gone quiet for a while until things cool down I don't know. But that will only be revealed over time. And as much as there is concrete evidence that there was an EA, there is no real evidence that it ever turned physical. I'm not trying to spin anything here. As much as I may react to things, I don't make decisions based on hunches, especially when it comes to breaking up my family.


----------



## ButtPunch

PA or not doesn't matter.

EA is more important to women anyway.

The point is you are getting zero remorse.

The longer it takes for you to become decisive.....the weaker
and more unattractive you become in her eyes.

Sorry but I agree with FSJ that you are rationalizing your inaction.


----------



## Blondilocks

Why are you here, again? You started off by saying you're kind of on the fence on how to handle things. So far, you've shot down all advice offered and offer the refrain that you have to wait for her to make a choice as to talk or not. Why not wait for her to talk (or, not) and then come back because everyone here (including you) are spinning their wheels.


----------



## AtMyEnd

Blondilocks said:


> Why are you here, again? You started off by saying you're kind of on the fence on how to handle things. So far, you've shot down all advice offered and offer the refrain that you have to wait for her to make a choice as to talk or not. Why not wait for her to talk (or, not) and then come back because everyone here (including you) are spinning their wheels.


One, I was never on the fence about how to handle things. Two, I haven't received much useful advice other then divorce, divorce, divorce, which seems to be the popular opinion from most on every post here. Jumping straight to divorce is not always a solution to the problem. And three, if you have nothing constructive to say, which you haven't, shut your ****ing mouth, no one cares what you have to say

{Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html

8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.

February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.


----------



## anchorwatch

Stop acting like a child lashing out. It doesn't work here and it won't work with your wife.


----------



## Nucking Futs

AtMyEnd said:


> One, I was never on the fence about how to handle things. Two, I haven't received much useful advice other then divorce, divorce, divorce, which seems to be the popular opinion from most on every post here. Jumping straight to divorce is not always a solution to the problem. And three, if you have nothing constructive to say, which you haven't, shut your f***ing mouth, no one cares what you have to say


Well aren't you just a prize. I can't imagine why your wife might be interested in other men. It's a real puzzler.


----------



## Blondilocks

First post, last sentence:

"So I'm kind of on the fence on how to handle things."

Are you having memory problems?


----------



## Andy1001

AtMyEnd said:


> One, I was never on the fence about how to handle things. Two, I haven't received much useful advice other then divorce, divorce, divorce, which seems to be the popular opinion from most on every post here. Jumping straight to divorce is not always a solution to the problem. And three, if you have nothing constructive to say, which you haven't, shut your ****ing mouth, no one cares what you have to say
> 
> {Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html
> 
> 8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.
> 
> February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.


Well aren't you the brave boy when it comes to the internet and nobody knows who you were.Maybe if you grew a set of balls and talked to your (for now)wife with a bit of conviction you wouldn't be wasting people time here.That just about sums you up,an ea with a woman a thousand miles away.If she was in your city you would **** yourself if she spoke to you.Ask your wife nicely if you can have your balls back and see what days she is willing to let you have out of her busy schedule with her other men.


----------



## manwithnoname

AtMyEnd said:


> Yes I ended mine right away. But from what I can see on cell phone records, she hasn't spoken to him since shortly after the confrontation. Whether they have just gone quiet for a while until things cool down I don't know. But that will only be revealed over time. And as much as there is concrete evidence that there was an EA, there is no real evidence that it ever turned physical. I'm not trying to spin anything here. As much as I may react to things, I don't make decisions based on hunches, especially when it comes to breaking up my family.



You need to dig deeper. There could be a burner phone, or they could be using an app that doesn't register on cell phone records. Nothing will be revealed in time if you don't dig. And of course there is no real evidence that it turned physical, why would she leave obvious evidence. Dig deeper!


----------



## ButtPunch

manwithnoname said:


> You need to dig deeper. There could be a burner phone, or they could be using an app that doesn't register on cell phone records. Nothing will be revealed in time if you don't dig. And of course there is no real evidence that it turned physical, why would she leave obvious evidence. Dig deeper!


It doesn't matter....She has already been caught and quite frankly doesn't 
give two ****s.


----------



## Blondilocks

AtMyEnd said:


> One, I was never on the fence about how to handle things. Two, I haven't received much useful advice other then divorce, divorce, divorce, which seems to be the popular opinion from most on every post here. Jumping straight to divorce is not always a solution to the problem. And three, if you have nothing constructive to say, which you haven't, shut your ****ing mouth, no one cares what you have to say
> 
> {Moderator Note: I spelled out the profanity. Please follow forum rules in regards to the profanity filter.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html
> 
> 8. Filter Bypass/Obscenity: A profanity filter is in place and any attempts to bypass it are forbidden. You MAY type words that are filtered, as long as they are not abusive towards other quests or violate any other rules; however, you must allow the filter to do its job. Do NOT try to filter the word yourself and do not try to use creative spelling to bypass the profanity filter. Also, posting images of videos of obscene gestures, linking to obscene web sites, posting obscene or graphic descriptions of a decidedly adult nature, and violating a standard of decent behavior is not allowed.
> 
> February 21st is the deadline for full enforcement of the measure.


Well, It's good to know that we can tell someone to "*shut your ****ing mouth*" with impunity as we won't be breaking any rules.


----------



## AtMyEnd

I find it kind of funny, people come to this forum to ask for advice and suggestions on how to possibly fix their broken marriage. It doesn't matter if it's just not getting along, an affair or whatever else, a lot of the posts I've read and my own are truly looking for help to try and fix things. Maybe it's just me but I truly feel that anything in a relationship can be fixed. One of my biggest issues in my current situation is that no matter how I present the question, my wife doesn't want to address our problems yet. From what I've seen, heard and heard from friends, she doesn't want to get a divorce. But she also doesn't want to talk to me about our problems, which is why I posted my story.

I wanted to try and get suggestions on how to get her to finally open up and talk about our problems together and possibly try and work things out. I know what she did, I know what I did, I know she doesn't seem to care, but I also know that she is a caring woman, a great mother and in general a good person. I've laid out everything here looking for some help, and all I seem to get is criticism. I've seen numerous comments of "just get a divorce" and all kinds of other negative non supportive comments. I know what happened so there's no reason to dig any deeper. What happened happened and I don't really care about that. I just want to see if we can repair the relationship and go from there.

It really seems like the only people here are angry bitter divorcees that not only failed in their own marriages but also either did nothing to work on them or just failed at trying to fix their relationships themselves. Why not share your experiences of what happened, what you did right or what you did wrong, things that may actually help people who post their problems here? Like I've said, I'm not naïve, I'm not gullible and I'm not stupid. I've done my investigating, I know what's happened and what's happening now in my relationship. I do still love my wife and mother of our son. It's because of him that I want to try and fix thing things and not just walk away. I've seen to many majorly screwed up kids that became that way because of divorce, and I don't want that for my son. But honestly a good majority of you people are pathetic. If you have nothing helpful to say, keep it to yourselves. For those of you who actually have some advice on how to get her to open up to me without threating her with divorce or spying on her to collect evidence to confront her with, let's here it. Please.


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## ButtPunch

AtMyEnd said:


> I find it kind of funny, people come to this forum to ask for advice and suggestions on how to possibly fix their broken marriage. It doesn't matter if it's just not getting along, an affair or whatever else, a lot of the posts I've read and my own are truly looking for help to try and fix things. Maybe it's just me but I truly feel that anything in a relationship can be fixed. One of my biggest issues in my current situation is that no matter how I present the question, my wife doesn't want to address our problems yet. From what I've seen, heard and heard from friends, she doesn't want to get a divorce. But she also doesn't want to talk to me about our problems, which is why I posted my story.
> 
> I wanted to try and get suggestions on how to get her to finally open up and talk about our problems together and possibly try and work things out. I know what she did, I know what I did, I know she doesn't seem to care, but I also know that she is a caring woman, a great mother and in general a good person. I've laid out everything here looking for some help, and all I seem to get is criticism. I've seen numerous comments of "just get a divorce" and all kinds of other negative non supportive comments. I know what happened so there's no reason to dig any deeper. What happened happened and I don't really care about that. I just want to see if we can repair the relationship and go from there.
> 
> It really seems like the only people here are angry bitter divorcees that not only failed in their own marriages but also either did nothing to work on them or just failed at trying to fix their relationships themselves. Why not share your experiences of what happened, what you did right or what you did wrong, things that may actually help people who post their problems here? Like I've said, I'm not naïve, I'm not gullible and I'm not stupid. I've done my investigating, I know what's happened and what's happening now in my relationship. I do still love my wife and mother of our son. It's because of him that I want to try and fix thing things and not just walk away. I've seen to many majorly screwed up kids that became that way because of divorce, and I don't want that for my son. But honestly a good majority of you people are pathetic. If you have nothing helpful to say, keep it to yourselves. For those of you who actually have some advice on how to get her to open up to me without threating her with divorce or spying on her to collect evidence to confront her with, let's here it. Please.


Just because you don't like the advice doesn't mean it is bad advice. Just because it isn't what you want to hear doesn't mean you shouldn't listen.

I have been thru way worse than you and I reconciled many years ago. FSJ isn't divorced either. So calling me a bitter divorced person is just another wrong assumption on your part.

It's great that you want to save your marriage. I get it. However, you must be willing to lose it if you want to save it. Everyday you stay in limbo your wife loses more respect for you. I have been here a long time helping out sad saps like yourself and you sir are getting played for the fool by your WW.

As far as sharing experiences......accepting limbo is as about as big as a mistake a BS can make.


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## Livvie

There is no other kind of advice because your wife is an ADULT and if she wanted to be a partner to you and work on what's wrong with your relationship SHE ALREADY WOULD BE DOING THAT.


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## MattMatt

@AtMyEnd OK.... Let's see.

If you are as abrasive and as rude to your wife as you were here, then maybe I could see why your wife might not be willing to open up to you?

You might not be, and if you are not, that's good.

However, I would suggest counselling both as individuals and as a couple.

And see how that might work out for the betterment of both of you.


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## farsidejunky

@AtMyEnd:

You seem to have all the answers except for the ones you need.

A wise poster who once frequented this forum used to ask people if they were sick and tired of being sick and tired. Clearly you haven't reached that point yet.

Please let me know when you do because the advice I and many others are trying to give you will only be relevant and accepted when you reach that point.

Take care, brother.


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## AtMyEnd

You know what? After reading comments here and on other threads, and articles and whatever on other sources, along with things the woman from my own EA said to my about my marriage, something just clicked. Enough already! It is time I stop worrying about all of this. I've realized that trying to fix my problems, going back to the little tings years and years ago, I've become "The Nice Guy". That never was me, I was never a bad guy, but I was never "The Nice Guy". As much as over the last year I haven't been holding things back, in some ways I've been pulling back way too much. Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm not filing for divorce.....just yet. But I'm also not going to live life worrying about what she thinks of me anymore either. I'm still going to see how things go with my marriage, but on my terms. I've made mistakes, said and done the wrong things at the wrong times, but who hasn't? She has made the same mistakes if not more. If she can't find a reason to want me for me, too bad. And if the divorce happens it happens, it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.


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## EleGirl

Blondilocks said:


> Well, It's good to know that we can tell someone to "*shut your ****ing mouth*" with impunity as we won't be breaking any rules.


Nope, what he said is not without consequences.

He's new to TAM and apparently does not know our rules, so I sent him a PM telling him that it's his one and only warning. And gave him a link of forum rules to read. 

I was going to delete his post last night but several people had quoted it and told him off basically. So I left it up for now.

I put the profanity filter note on his post so that he also learns that rule while he's reading the rest of the rules.


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## EleGirl

AtMyEnd said:


> You know what? After reading comments here and on other threads, and articles and whatever on other sources, along with things the woman from my own EA said to my about my marriage, something just clicked. Enough already! It is time I stop worrying about all of this. I've realized that trying to fix my problems, going back to the little tings years and years ago, I've become "The Nice Guy". That never was me, I was never a bad guy, but I was never "The Nice Guy". As much as over the last year I haven't been holding things back, in some ways I've been pulling back way too much. Now don't take this the wrong way, I'm not filing for divorce.....just yet. But I'm also not going to live life worrying about what she thinks of me anymore either. I'm still going to see how things go with my marriage, but on my terms. I've made mistakes, said and done the wrong things at the wrong times, but who hasn't? She has made the same mistakes if not more.  If she can't find a reason to want me for me, too bad. And if the divorce happens it happens, it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.


Read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. It pretty much tells you how to turn this around. It's not easy. It could take a long time.


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## Malaise

AtMyEnd said:


> I find it kind of funny, people come to this forum to ask for advice and suggestions on how to possibly fix their broken marriage. It doesn't matter if it's just not getting along, an affair or whatever else, a lot of the posts I've read and my own are truly looking for help to try and fix things. Maybe it's just me but I truly feel that anything in a relationship can be fixed. One of my biggest issues in my current situation is that *no matter how I present the question, my wife doesn't want to address our problems yet. From what I've seen, heard and heard from friends, she doesn't want to get a divorce. But she also doesn't want to talk to me about our problems*, which is why I posted my story.



If divorce isn't on the table, what incentive does she have to open up? She's willing to live in limbo. You don't seem to be as willing.

*And if the divorce happens it happens, it really doesn't matter at this point anyway. *

So what do you have to lose?


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## AtMyEnd

Malaise said:


> If divorce isn't on the table, what incentive does she have to open up? She's willing to live in limbo. You don't seem to be as willing.
> 
> *And if the divorce happens it happens, it really doesn't matter at this point anyway. *
> 
> So what do you have to lose?


What I have to lose is my family and all the time I spend with my son. We do a lot together and have a lot of fun and laughs. Though all the problems we've had, when I get upset and depressed to the point of giving up, it's always his face, smile, laughter and the time we spend together that makes me want to keep trying. I know it shouldn't be and I'm wrong for thinking this way but I am. He's a great kid, and I've seen what's happened to the kids of friends of ours who have gotten divorced. Even in the friendliest of divorces, it still effects young kids in a big way and I don't want that for my son.

Since everything has happened two weeks ago, things have improved. Our relationship is civil again, we're actually talking about random things and life in general more then we have in a very long time. We've been spending more time around each other and things have been good. I have still been monitoring her cell phone activity and there has been no contact with the other man. I, as well as others I've spoken to about this still don't feel that there was a physical affair, we all could be wrong but there is no real evidence of that at all.

I have decided to just start living life for me and just let things cool down. Like I said, at this point it really doesn't matter whether we get divorced now or see how things play out over the next couple months. I do have a problem with reacting to things, which is what seems to upset her and make her shut down and say nothing. Maybe some cool down time and then small conversations about individual problems will lead to a bigger conversation and her opening up. We did have a disconnect years ago that both of us realized but did nothing about, yes both of us have had and been caught for having EA's. I still feel that if we can just build our communication level back up that things can be worked out and resolved. Whether that resolution is divorce or staying together, we still need to build our relationship back up for our son's sake if for nothing else.


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## anchorwatch

@AtMyEnd

How do you intend to build the relationship? Do you have a plan?

Did you browse this plan? A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


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## curious234

Read the post by Evinrude58 on Page 45 in Cam 42 thread


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## AtMyEnd

anchorwatch said:


> @AtMyEnd
> 
> How do you intend to build the relationship? Do you have a plan?
> 
> Did you browse this plan? A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


I think it was actually you who had given me the link to "No More Mister Nice Guy". As much as I have not read the entire thing yet, there is a lot there that I can relate and identify with....a lot. And one of the things I've realized is that this is what's become of me pretty much since my son was born 6 years ago. Now no it didn't happen all at once, but it started happening slowly. 

My wife did have a rough pregnancy, 10 week bed rest prior to the birth and some depression afterward. I realized that me wanting to help her and prove that I was going to be a good father is what started my slide to be a "Nice Guy". As other problems came up I'd say or do things to try and fix them or make her feel better about them. When I didn't think those things were working I'd try something else. This trend continued and I became more and more focused on our relationship and trying to make her happy then I did on myself. 

The funny thing that I realize now is that my wife has been telling me this exact thing the entire time but I just didn't understand it. I always just felt she was being critical of me. I mean why else would helping her out or putting things I wanted to get done aside so I could do something with or for the family. I didn't get it. And honestly the example stories in chapter 4 were my relationship to a tee. I tried to do what I thought she wanted, she would withdraw, and I would get upset she felt distant and would withdraw myself. It created a "perfect storm" on both sides of the relationship and just snowballed from there.

Now that our relationship is virtually non existent, the last year has been both of us looking for what we were missing that we once had. Now I still don't think that her affair ever was physical, for many reasons. But through all the years of both of us "trying" to fix things we were really just pushing things further apart. Can it now be fixed, the right way? I don't know, I don't think there is any one "right way" to do it. Do I think it's at least worth a try? Absolutely, we don't hate each other. In a group or family setting we're the almost perfect pair, we both still do agree that we work well together, that we love each other and that we care for each other, but we're just not "in love". So why not take some time, forget about any and all expectations of each other, live our lives and see what happens?

As far as a definite plan, I don't have one just yet. But I do feel that telling this to my wife, that I finally understand what she's been saying all these years, that will open the door to start finally trying to actively work through everything. And even if it doesn't work out, we've both basically been living in purgatory for the last year, what another couple months to see if it makes a difference?


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## anchorwatch

Taking care of yourself shouldn't mean "me first" it should mean "me too"...


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## AtMyEnd

So just an update on things. The past couple weeks I've made the stance that I'm going to take back my life. Other than our problems, affairs and whatever else, what I've realized is that since our problems started I have slowly turned myself into "The Nice Guy". I've been trying to fix something that I don't have the tools to fix, and in doing so pushed us further apart. I have not withdrawn myself from the marriage or anything like that, but I have been putting my wants in front of hers.

Surprisingly over the last couple weeks I have seen a difference in her behavior, a positive one. Things almost seem normal again which is nice. I have not let my guard down at all and I don't plan to. As I've said before, there is conflicting evidence as to what has actually happened. As of now I have no real proof that anything ever turned physical, so if I want to try and move forward with things I need to treat it as nothing more than an EA the same as I had. If new information comes up that proves otherwise then I'll take it from there. I just don't see a point in staying angry or upset about something I don't know for sure and have no real way of proving. It's not healthy for me, what's left of my marriage, or my son.

That being said, we did finally have a conversation about what I found a few weeks back. It was a real conversation, no yelling, no raised voices, just an adult conversation. I said what I had to say, made my points, explained my feelings and left it at that. She did admit that she was wrong, said again how it never went further then a text, and explained that it was the lack of expectations to have to follow through with what she said in the texts that lead to them. She apologized again for what she did and I apologized again for the things I've done. As tense as things did feel during and after the conversation, within an hour it felt that all the tension was almost gone and conversations were normal, about everyday and random things.

Are all of our problems fixed, no. Do I trust her completely, no. Does she trust me completely, probably not. But it does feel like the air has been cleared and in the first time in a long time I have seen a real effort from her to work on things. Communication has improved, we've been spending more time with each other, mostly as a family, but it's still better then it's been. Like I've said, the last thing I want is a divorce, I do love her, I know she does love me, and I don't want to put my son through the pain of his parents splitting up, so I'm just going to roll on from here. I'm going to keep my guard up, address any issues or questions that come up instead of jumping to conclusions and accusations, and we'll just see what comes from it.


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## AtMyEnd

Ok, so another update on my situation. This past weekend I was going to a friends with our son, she didn't want to go saying she was exhausted from work and just wanted to go to the gym, go home to take a bath and just pass out. I had no problem with this, I didn't really want her coming to begin with. I extended the invitation to her just to show that I wasn't trying to exclude her from my life.

That being said, something just didn't feel right for some reason. Nothing had happened and there was no real trigger for it, but something just felt off. My son and I were going to a friends house that was more than an hour drive from my house so she knew I wouldn't be home until very late. So I planted a VAR in the bedroom and asked a good friend of mine who knows the situation to pass by the house around 9:00-9:30. I told him to just take a look for any cars that looked out of place and gave him the description of the man who she had been texting with's car. 

When we got to my friends place I texted her that we made it there safe and asked her how the gym was. She replied back that she didn't go to the gym and was going over to a friends house to watch a movie and relax. So my plan A had been foiled, time for plan B. I text my friend who was going to pass my house and tell him this and give him the friends address and ask if he'd pass by there and see if the car was there. He says no problem and I go about my night. Around 9:00 he texts me, her car isn't there. I text him back asking if he's sure, the house is on a hill and there's a long driveway so I ask him if he's sure the car wasn't at the top of the driveway. He says he's not sure and it's possible and he's going to go back. 15 minutes later another text from him "Definitely not there". Now I'm pissed but trying not to show it. I had sent my wife a picture of our son with all my friends kids earlier in the night because she had asked me to but she hadn't responded to the text. A little while later my friends wife says to me, her not knowing about any of this, that she must have gone home and fallen right to sleep because she hadn't replied to any of her texts. So now the blood is boiling, lol.

I finally get a text from her asking how my nights going and that she's heading home shortly. I say fine and ask her how the movie was. She tells me the name of the movie they watched, that they sat around having "girl talk" and told me about a conversation that she had with her friends two daughters. So I'm about to blow up at this point because I know it's all a lie, I know she was never at the friends house. So I text back something like "sounds fun" and I go on with my night. A little while later she texts that she had just gotten home, and then texts me "Thank you handsome", I had left a wrapped bottle of wine and bubble bath on the counter for her when I left for the night, I thought it would be a nice little gesture. Then she texts asking what time we're leaving to head home and say I'm not sure yet. Then another asking if we're sleeping there and I say no. So now my head is going even more, why all these questions about when I'm coming home?

So we get home about 2 hours after all that and she's asleep, I put my son to sleep and walk into our room. No movement from her at the sound of me walking around the room so I walk over and look at her phone. I don't know the code so all I can see is the closed home screen but I can see that there is a WhatsApp message from about an hour ago, so now I'm pissed again. I lay down and try to fall asleep but can't. She wakes up at one point, we start talking about our nights and she asks me what's wrong? So I tell her that something had felt off about the night so when I got home I looked at her phone and saw a message there. I asked her who it was from and if she was still talking to him. She said no and she looked at the phone and said the message was from her uncle, but still refuses to show me the phone. I'm tired and don't want to get into it so I go to sleep.

The next night we go out for a friends birthday and she has way too much to drink. I had been doing some research earlier that day on ways to possibly get into her phone and look around myself, and I found one. When we got home that night she passed out almost immediately. Being that I had had a few drinks myself, I guess my beer muscles kicked in so I grabbed the phone and got it unlocked. I took it downstairs and started looking through everything. I looked at Whatsapp first since I knew that was how she was communicating with the guy, nothing there. I was relieved, I knew that even if she had been deleting the messages if there were any, that she was too drunk that night to have been able to think about deleting them, and I hadn't even seen her look at her phone in hours. So I start looking through texts with the friend she said she was with Friday night. Well it turns out that they were together but they went out to a restaurant together, I even found a selfie of the two of them. So know I'm thinking, why lie about where she was? It didn't make any sense. They went to a restaurant that we go to frequently and many of our friends go to so I know she wouldn't have had him meet them there, it was too risky. So why lie? I also found a lot of texts with other friends about the situation with this other guy and everything did point to the fact that nothing ever happened and it was just a text, so unless she's lying to everyone, even her closest friends, I do believe that nothing happened outside of the texts. But it still bothers me, why lie about where she had been?

So Monday morning the texts start, accusing me of having a GPS on her car. I tell her that I don't and she basically calls me a liar. She knew I had gotten a GPS tracker a while back because she found it while snooping around. So I tell her where it is in the house and to go look for herself. Then she accuses me of getting another one so that I can show her the one and make her think there's nothing on the car when there really is. I tell her she's acting ridiculous and there's nothing on the car. So now I'm thinking, she knows that I know she wasn't where she said she was Friday night, but how? So then she starts bringing up old arguments and accusing me of telling all of my friends that she had an affair. I tell her that I haven't told anyone that she had an affair, yes I've talked to some friends about our problems but not about that. So at the same time as her texting me all these accusations, I'm texting with another friend about all this and what she's saying. My friends response to all this, she's baiting you. She's trying to get you to snap and admit to spying on her, drop the conversation right now. So I tell my wife that this is all ridiculous and exactly what we both agreed we wouldn't do anymore and that if she wants to talk about us and our relationship later tonight I will but I'm done with all this right now, it's just stupid. She sent a couple texts after that but I didn't respond.

When I got home that night, before her, I took the GPS, put it in it's box and left it on her night table. When she got home I tried to avoid her, I said hi to her but that was pretty much it. As the night went on she did talk to me a little and I would answer her but that was it, I stayed away from conversations. Later that night when I went upstairs I noticed that the box with the GPS in it was gone. Honestly I don't care where it is but I know she saw it and that I silently proved her wrong about her accusations. 

Since then things have been civil around the house, we were even joking around and laughing about something the other night, something that hasn't happened in a while. But it still bothers me, why did she lie about Friday night when it was something so innocent? Why all the accusations about everything? Is she testing me to see if she can piss me off to the point of admitting to spying and knowing more than I'm letting on that I know? It's just bizarre.


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## ButtPunch

Have you listened to the VAR?

The WhatsAPP is not good.


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## Jessica38

AtMyEnd said:


> There was a disconnect 2 years ago, a major failure in communication. We basically "existed" together for a year. She admitted that she had made a conscious decision to just do her own thing and not worry about me, and I admitted that I built up a lot of resentment because I felt she wasn't including me in her life. We decided to work on our relationship but she still felt we drifted too far apart. My argument to that was how do you know how far you drifted if you never really talk to each other. The woman I had an online emotional affair with started out as us talking about my marriage and our problems. She offered a lot of advice and a lot of it helped. My marriage and our relationship were improving until she found out about this other woman. Yes I had feelings for her but my relationship with her still revolved around me talking and venting about my marriage


You really screwed up. A spouse has every right to leave after an affair, which is what you had. Instead of leaving you, your wife emotionally withdrew to protect herself. 

I second the recommendation for Surviving an Affair. If you want to save your marriage, I recommend you stop with the "focusing on myself and stop caring what my wife thinks" and instead focus on meeting your wife's needs for the sake of your marriage and your children. She's deeply hurt by you and you both have a lot of work to do to regain eachother's trust.

You can do it but it will require spending at least 20 hours a week of quality time together to fall back in love. This leaves little to no room for your own independent activities after you factor in work and family time with your kids. 

You both need full transparency. Get off social media, exchange all device passwords, give each other full details of how you spend your time each day.

Treat your wife like you did when you were dating her. Fall back in love. It is possible to do. You have to rebuild a new marriage. You've both been unfaithful and turned to others outside your marriage to meet your emotional needs. That's betrayal.


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## AtMyEnd

ButtPunch said:


> Have you listened to the VAR?
> 
> The WhatsAPP is not good.


I have listened to the VAR's and there has been nothing. There was one conversation with a friend of hers, I cross referenced the call log for her cell to see who she was talking to, and they were talking about how she thinks I'm making a bigger deal out of all this than it is, and how all it was was an unsolicited text that she barely entertained. She knows that I know she was texting him with WhatsApp and yes she could've deleted the messages. But the night I got into the phone I know she hadn't looked at her phone for at least an hour before I got a hold of it, so is they are still talking he didn't send any messages or they really have stopped talking.

Like I said, from what I saw on the phone the other night, there were texts with friends talking about it, but they were all about how I'm making a big deal out of unsolicited text from him. So it's one of two things, either all it was was "harmless" flirting during regular everyday conversation and him just crossing the line and trying to make a move, or I caught things in time before they did become physical. Either way my radar is still up and I'm still going to investigate anything that comes up, but for now I just have to see how things play out.


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## AtMyEnd

Jessica38 said:


> You really screwed up. A spouse has every right to leave after an affair, which is what you had. Instead of leaving you, your wife emotionally withdrew to protect herself.
> 
> I second the recommendation for Surviving an Affair. If you want to save your marriage, I recommend you stop with the "focusing on myself and stop caring what my wife thinks" and instead focus on meeting your wife's needs for the sake of your marriage and your children. She's deeply hurt by you and you both have a lot of work to do to regain eachother's trust.
> 
> You can do it but it will require spending at least 20 hours a week of quality time together to fall back in love. This leaves little to no room for your own independent activities after you factor in work and family time with your kids.
> 
> You both need full transparency. Get off social media, exchange all device passwords, give each other full details of how you spend your time each day.
> 
> Treat your wife like you did when you were dating her. Fall back in love. It is possible to do. You have to rebuild a new marriage. You've both been unfaithful and turned to others outside your marriage to meet your emotional needs. That's betrayal.


My wife emotionally withdrew long before my EA, I think that's one of the reasons I found myself in an EA in the first place, and no I'm not making excuses. I never meant to have an EA, I didn't set out looking for one, it just happened over time. At the very start of our problems my wife never wanted to talk about them, her outlook on everything was always "Well let's just see what happens"

I have tried to fulfill her needs since my EA and all that has done is push her further away which is what I believe led her to have now 2 EA's. I have talked to her about full transparency and being completely open and honest about everything. She knows the passwords for both my phone and my computer, however she outright refuses to give me hers or let me at least look at her phone while she's sitting there. My issue now is that I have pulled a 180, I don't hide anything from her, anything she asks me I answer, and she can look at my phone or computer at any time she wants. As far as she's concerned, her phone and computer are private and I have no business looking at them and her reactions to things I ask her feel like she's constantly hiding things from me.

Granted after accessing her phone, I have seen nothing that tells me her last EA ever got physical but her behavior has just been odd and completely out of character for her so all I can do is keep my guard up and see what happens


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## Jessica38

AtMyEnd, your marriage sounds like a mess. She's texting with another guy and doesn't want you to see. That's enough to classify as another EA, in my mind. Sounds like she's still getting her needs met outside of the marriage, in which case, you'll never be able to compete because she's in a fog. She's getting needs met by the OM without the stress of raising kids, paying bills, etc. with him.

A sexually explicit text is enough to expose to your extended family and children. This will break up the EA. Is the OM married? I'd make sure his wife gets a copy of that text. Did you save it? 

Sounds to me like previous EAs on both your parts were swept under the rug. You're allowing it to happen again in your marriage. You need to stop it so you and your wife can recover. She's going to be angry after you expose and will likely threaten to leave you. But in Surviving an Affair, Dr. Harley says that if you remain calm and continue to focus on your kids and show her what a good, recovered marriage can look like, she will likely not be able to walk away from that (if she cares about her family at all, and most women do, even if for the kids). From there you can rebuild- spending 20+ hours a week together, falling back in love. 

Good luck- sounds like you need to do it right this time. Rug sweeping never works.


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## ButtPunch

I am going to reemphasize what someone has already posted.

You just stated she has emotionally withdrawn from the marriage.

How long can you live like this before you are "sick and tired of being sick and tired"

Your family dynamic isn't helping your kids by staying in a dysfunctional marriage.

You are hurting them by showing them a normal that shouldn't be. 

I can already see that it is going to take something drastic to pull her back into this marriage if it can be done at all.


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## AtMyEnd

Jessica38 said:


> AtMyEnd, your marriage sounds like a mess. She's texting with another guy and doesn't want you to see. That's enough to classify as another EA, in my mind. Sounds like she's still getting her needs met outside of the marriage, in which case, you'll never be able to compete because she's in a fog. She's getting needs met by the OM without the stress of raising kids, paying bills, etc. with him.
> 
> A sexually explicit text is enough to expose to your extended family and children. This will break up the EA. Is the OM married? I'd make sure his wife gets a copy of that text. Did you save it?
> 
> Sounds to me like previous EAs on both your parts were swept under the rug. You're allowing it to happen again in your marriage. You need to stop it so you and your wife can recover. She's going to be angry after you expose and will likely threaten to leave you. But in Surviving an Affair, Dr. Harley says that if you remain calm and continue to focus on your kids and show her what a good, recovered marriage can look like, she will likely not be able to walk away from that (if she cares about her family at all, and most women do, even if for the kids). From there you can rebuild- spending 20+ hours a week together, falling back in love.
> 
> Good luck- sounds like you need to do it right this time. Rug sweeping never works.


Yes with both my EA and the first time I caught her texting another man it did kind of get swept under the rug. When she caught me, I came clean and told her everything. She showed me that she had proof of the texts so why should I hide anything, that was my outlook on things then. Then when I saw that she was texting another man all day everyday and I called her out on it, all I got was denial, refusal and deflection. We talked about it multiple times and I always got the same thing, nothing. Other than seeing her text logs, I had no real proof of any wrong doing. I had to take her on her word and see what happened.

Things between us did improve over time. I didn't see any suspicious texting and her data usage wasn't out of the ordinary. As much as I never knew exactly what happened there, I was comfortable that it had stopped, but I also never let my guard down. That's why this time when I noticed her starting to withdraw again I went into high gear. I guess I was lucky the night I found the text that I walked into the room and her phone was in her hand unlocked and she was asleep. I saw something on the screen that was questionable and scrolled through and saw the text from him. This time it hasn't been swept under the rug, anything that is questionable is brought up to her, and it's caused a lot of tension and caused her to withdraw more. Since then I have seen a lot that tells me that it was just that one text and that she is no longer speaking to her. Our relationship does go up and down on an almost daily basis but there has been a sense of normalcy at times. I still want to have a full conversation with her about what exactly happened and what we need to do to save our marriage, but I know I can't until more normalcy has returned to our relationship.


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## Jessica38

Sounds like you really want to save this marriage for the sake of your family. In that case, you need to bust up this recent EA. She's withdrawing likely because she's taking it underground and probably doesn't feel guilty since she's justifying it with your past EA. 

You need to expose and get her to send a no contact letter to the OM. Does she work with him? If so she will need to leave that job. 

You will not be able to repair your marriage fully until you address the EA and get rid of the OM. Your wife needs to end all contact so she can grieve and move forward with you and work toward recovery with you. Until that happens, your marriage will continue to be in limbo and she will withdraw and come out of her shell only often enough to make sure you're still her fallback. Is the OM married? He likely has no intention of leaving for an EA and your wife knows this. Exposure will make him run.


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## AtMyEnd

Jessica38 said:


> Sounds like you really want to save this marriage for the sake of your family. In that case, you need to bust up this recent EA. She's withdrawing likely because she's taking it underground and probably doesn't feel guilty since she's justifying it with your past EA.
> 
> You need to expose and get her to send a no contact letter to the OM. Does she work with him? If so she will need to leave that job.
> 
> You will not be able to repair your marriage fully until you address the EA and get rid of the OM. Your wife needs to end all contact so she can grieve and move forward with you and work toward recovery with you. Until that happens, your marriage will continue to be in limbo and she will withdraw and come out of her shell only often enough to make sure you're still her fallback. Is the OM married? He likely has no intention of leaving for an EA and your wife knows this. Exposure will make him run.


I have accessed her phone without her knowing and have gone through everything, every app, every message, everything. I'm seen texts with friends talking about the whole situation in detail and I have not seen anything that tells me things ever became physical or that she is still talking to him. We had a small argument last week over something and I had asked her again if she was still talking to him and she told me no, and that whatever I said to him when I confronted him scared him to the point of cutting all contact with her. Whether I fully believe that or not is a whole other thing, but from what I can see there has been no contact. So at this point I need to just take all this as just an unsolicited text as she's told me it was and as I've seen she's told all her friends it was.

That being said, we did speak briefly about things yesterday. She noticed something was bothering me and asked me what, so I told her. I told her that I feel like I don't know what direction we're going in or even trying to go in and it bothers me. I told her that which ever direction we go in at this point is ok, but let's make a decision and make it known to each other and go with it. She said to me "You make it sound like the easiest decision in the world". I said no, the easiest decision in the world would be to just say F it and walk away from it all. But I'm not ready to give up fighting for us and the life and family we've built together because of a couple bad years and a few stupid choices made by both of us. And she told me that she couldn't make a decision yet and that she needs to feel comfortable right now and at peace with things.

Now yes, I understand this to an extent. I have seen things and jump to conclusions and made accusations, right or wrong I did it and it made her feel uncomfortable that I'm constantly watching her and I don't believe a word she says. In the past week she has done things, said things, and asked things purposely trying to piss me off and react, but I didn't. I've realized that she's testing me, she's trying to see if I'm going to flip out over any little thing like she's said I've done in the past. I know I've done it and I'm conscious to it now so I'm trying my best not to do it. 

Will things get to a point where we can really rebuild? I don't know. But for now I just have to keep a watchful eye and see how things progress. It's not worth letting all the little things get to me and make me upset. If things get better great, if I find something that proves 100% she's been lying this whole time, then it's over.


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## Jessica38

I know you want to believe everything is OK, but the truth is- things are likely up and down with your marriage because she's waffling in and out of her relationship with this guy. It really does sound like you're rug sweeping again and letting her call the shots.

You need to take a VERY firm stance. This guy sent her private messages. You called it "harmless flirting" in your previous posts. There is NO harmless flirting with a spouse who has had an EA. You allowing this in your marriage is making you less attractive than the OM and right now you are competing with him for your wife's attention. Make no mistake, she's enjoying the attention of another man right under your nose while your marriage is fragile.


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## Lostinthought61

At this point it sounds like you have given her the steering wheel of this marriage, she seems to be making all the decision as to the direction this marriage is taking...it certainly not even close to 50/50, she is certainly not taking ownership of her part of this mess, and she is blame shifting you....not sure if i were you i could take that...you must be a very patience man...I would tell her to call me when she is read to put our marriage on track and take ownership of her crap, and leave for a while.


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## AtMyEnd

Jessica38 said:


> I know you want to believe everything is OK, but the truth is- things are likely up and down with your marriage because she's waffling in and out of her relationship with this guy. It really does sound like you're rug sweeping again and letting her call the shots.
> 
> You need to take a VERY firm stance. This guy sent her private messages. You called it "harmless flirting" in your previous posts. There is NO harmless flirting with a spouse who has had an EA. You allowing this in your marriage is making you less attractive than the OM and right now you are competing with him for your wife's attention. Make no mistake, she's enjoying the attention of another man right under your nose while your marriage is fragile.


Oh, I know things aren't ok. My marriage has been going up and down mainly because every time I see something strange I question her on it. If I don't get an answer or the answer doesn't make much sense, I make it clear that I'm not going to put up it. That was all discussed about a week ago when I questioned her on something and it led me to tell her that it was time to contact attorneys.

Unfortunately there will always be harmless flirting, it's part of business sometimes. What I made clear to her was that it's one thing to flirt a little in a public setting but a completely different thing to flirt in private either on the phone or through text.

Yes my marriage is fragile right now, but from what I have seen she's not in contact with the OM. Whether they really have broken all ties or if they're just taking a break right now until things cool down, I don't know, only time will tell that. And I'm not competing for anything right now. Other then saying hi or bye or talking about something regarding our son, I don't talk to her unless she initiates. And even then I say only what needs to be said and that's it. That has been working quite well, she does try to initiate move and more actual conversations which is one thing that she had stopped doing.


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## AtMyEnd

Lostinthought61 said:


> At this point it sounds like you have given her the steering wheel of this marriage, she seems to be making all the decision as to the direction this marriage is taking...it certainly not even close to 50/50, she is certainly not taking ownership of her part of this mess, and she is blame shifting you....not sure if i were you i could take that...you must be a very patience man...I would tell her to call me when she is read to put our marriage on track and take ownership of her crap, and leave for a while.


She's always been a blame shifter, she's an attorney. Over the years I've tried every approach and it just blows up into a huge argument bringing up things I did to upset her 15 years ago. So far what I'm doing now is the first time I've seen an actual change in her. I know I jump to conclusions about things and can get pretty upset when we don't see eye to eye on things, I'm not an easy man to live with and I know that.

One of the problems with leaving the house until she gets her crap together is 1- I don't want to leave my son. It would hurt him too much and he's too young to really understand what's going on. 2- If I'm the one to leave and things don't work out, it discredits me in the divorce and cause me to pay more than I should. 3- Between still paying my share of the bills on our house and the added expense of an apartment, I wouldn't have much of a life with what's left and I don't feel that downgrading my life is worth trying to make a point and wait for her to make up her mind.


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## GuyInColorado

Sounds like for now you're prepared to live life like a zombie for the next 12 years until he's 18 and then you'll bail. You'll regret it. And if you two have a sham of a marriage, he'll think that's normal and repeat. 

If you're prepared to live another 12 years with her, you should have full access to her phone. You should be able to track her at any time. Go to MC weekly. Try to make it work.

How often are you two having sex?


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## AtMyEnd

GuyInColorado said:


> Sounds like for now you're prepared to live life like a zombie for the next 12 years until he's 18 and then you'll bail. You'll regret it. And if you two have a sham of a marriage, he'll think that's normal and repeat.
> 
> If you're prepared to live another 12 years with her, you should have full access to her phone. You should be able to track her at any time. Go to MC weekly. Try to make it work.
> 
> How often are you two having sex?


Well certainly not another 12 years, but at least through the summer. I've already told her that if things don't improve by September I'm done with it. The way I look it is the two of us spend the most time together doing things and having fun during the summer months, if we can't reconnect and regain some kind of normalcy in the marriage after that then it's never going to happen. As far as our son and pretty much everyone else, our marriage does look fairly normal. We don't hate each other and we don't fight, argue or treat each other badly in front of other people. Our son has heard us argue but he hasn't been around during the big fights. As far as sex.....before I confronted her last month it was 3-4 times a month, but that's pretty much been the norm since our son was born. Since the confrontation it's been none existent. Her excuse has been a person who she feels has her under constant surveillance all the time and jumps to conclusions over things the way I do isn't really a turn on. Again, it's only been a month since the confrontation and there have been some other arguments in between. But again, as things start to settle down, if that doesn't pick up again it will become an issue.


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## Jessica38

AtMyEnd said:


> Unfortunately there will always be harmless flirting, it's part of business sometimes. What I made clear to her was that it's one thing to flirt a little in a public setting but a completely different thing to flirt in private either on the phone or through text.
> 
> Yes my marriage is fragile right now, but from what I have seen she's not in contact with the OM. *Whether they really have broken all ties or if they're just taking a break right now until things cool down, I don't know, only time will tell that*.


No, I can tell you now that chances are very high that she will be back in contact with the OM soon if she's not already- because you haven't taken the steps required to demand she either ends the affair and ALL contact through exposure and a no contact letter to the OM, and implements full transparency to you, or you file for D.

Realize what you're saying is that you'd rather share your wife than downgrade your lifestyle and impact your son (whose life will be impacted anyways because your wife is most likely still in an affair).

And no, no one should have to put up with their spouse flirting with the opposite sex, in person or otherwise- especially a spouse who has shown she has poor boundaries with other men.


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## ButtPunch

Jessica38 said:


> No, I can tell you now that chances are very high that she will be back in contact with the OM soon if she's not already- because you haven't taken the steps required to demand she either ends the affair and ALL contact through exposure and a no contact letter to the OM, and implements full transparency to you, or you file for D.
> 
> Realize what you're saying is that you'd rather share your wife than downgrade your lifestyle and impact your son (whose life will be impacted anyways because your wife is most likely still in an affair).
> 
> And no, no one should have to put up with their spouse flirting with the opposite sex, in person or otherwise- especially a spouse who has shown she has poor boundaries with other men.



As you will find out here on TAM, people have to learn at their pace. 

When he finally gets tired of it all, he will come around.

Some people can take more crap sandwiches than others.


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## Jessica38

ButtPunch said:


> As you will find out here on TAM, people have to learn at their pace.
> 
> When he finally gets tired of it all, he will come around.
> 
> Some people can take more crap sandwiches than others.


I know, sigh. But when making big decisions like how to handle an affair, I think there's no substitute for helpful outside perspectives since most of us in it will react emotionally.


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## GuyInColorado

It's true... I put up with a 100% sexless marriage for 4 years. Because of young kids and finances. I finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired. No More Mr Nice Guy woke me up, too. I finally didn't give a crap and told friends and family that it's been a sham of a marriage and I'm leaving her. I separated 2 weeks after reading NMMNG. Got engaged 14 months later to the woman of my dreams and closing on our new house in 3 weeks from now. Life is short, don't waste it with someone that makes your life miserable.


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## AtMyEnd

Jessica38 said:


> No, I can tell you now that chances are very high that she will be back in contact with the OM soon if she's not already- because you haven't taken the steps required to demand she either ends the affair and ALL contact through exposure and a no contact letter to the OM, and implements full transparency to you, or you file for D.
> 
> Realize what you're saying is that you'd rather share your wife than downgrade your lifestyle and impact your son (whose life will be impacted anyways because your wife is most likely still in an affair).
> 
> And no, no one should have to put up with their spouse flirting with the opposite sex, in person or otherwise- especially a spouse who has shown she has poor boundaries with other men.




I have already spoken to the OM face to face and explained very clearly what will happen if I find out he’s in contact with her again. She has been told if I find out she’s been in contact with him that I’m filing. I have been through her phone without her knowing more than a few times now and there has been no contact. And no, I’m not going to downgrade my lifestyle basically as a scare tactic to get her back, that’s ridiculous. And whether they realize it or not, everyone flirts with the opposite sex. Anyone who says they don’t is either a liar or clueless.


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## AtMyEnd

GuyInColorado said:


> It's true... I put up with a 100% sexless marriage for 4 years. Because of young kids and finances. I finally got sick and tired of being sick and tired. No More Mr Nice Guy woke me up, too. I finally didn't give a crap and told friends and family that it's been a sham of a marriage and I'm leaving her. I separated 2 weeks after reading NMMNG. Got engaged 14 months later to the woman of my dreams and closing on our new house in 3 weeks from now. Life is short, don't waste it with someone that makes your life miserable.


I get it, life is short and you only deserve the best for yourself. Before all our problems started, she was the best. Through all my questioning, snooping, having her followed, bugging my house, etc., I still have found no solid proof that anything physical happened. And I’m not about to throw away 15 years of my life because of 2 bad years and something I don’t know happened or not without exhausting every option. “Wasting” another 5 months means nothing at this point.


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## GuyInColorado

I get it. But you should have full access to her phone. You should be able to pick it up, enter in the PIN, and look around.


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## AtMyEnd

GuyInColorado said:


> I get it. But you should have full access to her phone. You should be able to pick it up, enter in the PIN, and look around.




Well I sort of do and I can. Her phone can be access by her fingerprint, after a night of drinking and her passing out, I took her finger as she slept and opened the phone. While I was in there, I registered one of my fingerprints so I can open it whenever I want. I know she’ll never give me total access to her phone and I do understand why. Other than a lot of work stuff, I know she talks to friends about me and other things that she would never want me to see, I do the same.


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## Tobyboy

AtMyEnd said:


> Well I sort of do and I can. Her phone can be access by her fingerprint, after a night of drinking and her passing out, I took her finger as she slept and opened the phone. While I was in there, I registered one of my fingerprints so I can open it whenever I want. I know she’ll never give me total access to her phone and I do understand why. Other than a lot of work stuff, I know she talks to friends about me and other things that she would never want me to see, I do the same.


How about her car? Do you have access to it?


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## AtMyEnd

Tobyboy said:


> How about her car? Do you have access to it?


I do now have access to the car. She doesn't know I found the spare key and I now have that hidden from her. Putting a VAR in the car wouldn't do much good though, even looking at her phone records, she doesn't talk on the phone much at all and all the numbers she talks to I know, with her it's all text. I even actually helped her clean out the car over the weekend. I still want to take a look through the center console and glove box but there was nothing I saw in the car or in the garbage she threw out from the car, yes I went through it, so I'll just need to keep a close eye and see what happens


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## AtMyEnd

Ok, I know I had posted an update a few days ago but some things have happened and some thoughts on my mind. In my last update I think I mentioned how she had told me she was going to a friends to watch a movie and told me this whole story the next morning about what they watch, that they had "girl talk" and a conversation she had with her friends daughters. Only to find out that she didn't go to the friends house but went out to a restaurant with that same friend. I never let her know that I knew she lied and didn't really care being that I did find out the truth through other means and she didn't do anything wrong other then lie to me and tell me some made up story about it. All that followed up Monday morning by all kinds of accusations of me putting a GPS on her car, her not believing me when I said I didn't, and all kinds of other accusations about me telling all my friends that she had an affair, which I didn't. The texts were crazy and discussing them with a friend our only conclusion was that she was testing me and trying to bait me into admitting I was spying and tracking her. I do understand it to a point, she has told me that she doesn't feel comfortable in our relationship because she constantly feels that I'm watching her, investigating her and "building a case against her", and that's why she hasn't been able to open up again.

That being said, the same kind of thing happened again this weekend. She was going to a jewelry party at a neighbors house up the street. First she asked our son if he wanted to walk up there with her and see if the kids were there. Then later she said that she'd walk up and if the kids were there, she'd walk back to get him, the key word here being "walk". So when she left, she told me she was going to drive up because she wanted to stop and pick up a bottle of wine to bring. Not a big deal, but then I start thinking well we have a lot of nice wine and decent wine in the house already, why not bring one of those? But whatever I don't say anything about it, but she did say again that if the kids were there she'd come back to pick up our son. So now a little while later, and after I knew she would be there after picking up wine, I text her "Guess no kids?" and she texts back no. So a little while later I'm out front having a smoke and things just feel off. I look in the window and see my son is face planted in his ipad, lol, so I jump on a bike and ride up the block. The car is there so I head back, all good.

So around 11pm she texts me that they're going out dancing, and I text her to have fun. I go upstairs, lay down and watch TV in bed, I probably fell asleep a little before midnight. The next morning when we wake up, I ask her about her night. She tells me where they went and how they went to 2 places, both were bad so they came back. Then I ask her what time she got home, and she tells me sometime around midnight. So I start thinking, 30 minutes to drive to the area, stopped in at 2 places that were a 5-10 minute walk apart, have at least a drink at each place, and then a 30 minute drive home. She texted me a little after 11 that they were going and she said she got home around midnight, the timeline doesn't work out at all. So I check the footage from my security cameras and she got home at almost 1:30am. And not that I think she was out doing something she shouldn't have been doing but midnight vs. 1:30am is a big difference to mistake. I looked through her phone again the next night and saw texts with friends about where she was and who she was with, and didn't see anything suspicious so I just feel a little confused.

Why keep lying to me about where she is and what time she got home when you're not doing anything wrong?


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