# Men please advise..Help with understanding this



## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

I would like some help in analyzing how a conversation can get so messed up. Here's how it went:

W-"Are you ready to read the next chapter of the book together?"

H-"Ugh...I don't know if I could stay awake for it, I've had a rough day.

(W at this point doesn't say anything, is thinking about how she wants to respond and some disappointment/anger is creeping in)

A minute or two goes by.

W-"Why is it every time we agree to work on this, you always come up with excuses to push it back to another time?"

H-"I'm not trying to push it back, I'm saying I don't know if I can stay awake. If I fall asleep you'll be mad. You've told me before you would rather I let you know I was tired, instead of falling asleep in the middle of you talking/reading."

(A few more minutes go by)

W-"I figured it would only take an hour, maybe even 45 minutes to get through the chapter"


(Maybe 5 minutes go by)



H-"C'mon, let's read the chapter"

W-"No, that's fine, you're too tired, go to sleep"

H-"I'm awake now, let's read. 

(Minutes go by)

H-"Besides that, we could have gone through some of these relationship questions instead and it probably would have taken less time"

W-"It's too late now, I already feel like it's not important to you, I can't get my mind back in the place it needs to be."

(More minutes go by)

H- "Look. I told you I didn't know if I could stay awake for reading the chapter. You want to get mad because you think I don't care about working on it. *I* wanted to work on us by doing these questions instead, since it would take less time, but we have to do what you want."

W-"I would have been fine with doing the questions like you wanted but you didn't even mention them until later. All you told me was you were too tired. You led me to believe you weren't interesting in any of it."

H-"I was interested. I just wanted to save the reading for later and work on the questions instead.

So what I'm trying to figure out is H's attempt at a recap of the conversation. It clearly happened the way I just described it, but he attempts to twist it somehow to make it look like he wanted to compromise and I was being the unreasonable one, and totally take the attention off of the fact that *he* didn't even attempt to offer a compromise at the *beginning* of the conversation. 

I can't even get it straight in my head to convey it the way I'm trying to but does anyone understand what I'm getting at? Alot of our conversations go this way so I am wondering, why does he do this? Is it a form of conflict avoidance?


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## moogvo (Dec 21, 2008)

I get this one a lot... Men and women are two TOTALLY different creatures. Aside from the fact that we both walk upright and are able to communicate (usually), we are wired entirely different from each other.

To the Husband's defense, women rarely afford the opportunity for a "re-do". That is to say that if he didn't want to do the reading for whatever reason, but was willing to take SOME part in it after seeing how it was affecting you, your response was basically "Nope. You made your choice. now I am angry and you have to live with that."

ONLY THEN does he see his mistake and want to rectify the situation. Perhaps at that time you could say "OK, let's get started then". Women are usually an "All-or-nothing" breed. 

In the Wife's defense - Men oftentimes just don't "get it". They lack the sensitivity to see the importance of the situation at hand. Once the full nature of the sensitivity and desire is known, he will generally be willing to participate (unless HE thinks it is rubbish, at which time he will mentally move along to something else) Men don't generally listen all that well.

It is NEVER "too late" unless the car has launched over the cliff and you are both waiting out the last 3 seconds of your lives until the impact.

The BIG issue here is communication. You need to learn to relate your feelings to him in a way that he can see and absorb. He needs to learn how to listen, but he needs to feel understood at the same time. The major part of the issue here is that while you are both speaking in English, you are both talking different languages.

To a guy, the words "We need to talk" from a partner mean about the same thing as an employee coming up to him saying "I need a raise". From the get-go, he doesn't feel like he has the resources to take care of either situation. To the partner, he feels like that whatever he says during that "talk" will be all wrong and will get him into trouble, while with the employee, he knows he doesn't have the money to give a raise...


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

moogvo said:


> I get this one a lot... Men and women are two TOTALLY different creatures. Aside from the fact that we both walk upright and are able to communicate (usually), we are wired entirely different from each other.
> 
> To the Husband's defense, women rarely afford the opportunity for a "re-do". That is to say that if he didn't want to do the reading for whatever reason, but was willing to take SOME part in it after seeing how it was affecting you, your response was basically "Nope. You made your choice. now I am angry and you have to live with that."
> 
> ...


Moogvo, thanks for your reply and offering some insight from the male prospective. I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. As far as the 'redo', from the female perspective, I would appreciate that he changed his mind because of the way it affected me, BUT still I know that he on his own free will, didn't choose that route because he, himself, thought it was important. 

I figure if I let it be known point blankly, that I feel VERY strongly about needing to put forth the effort to turn things around in our marriage, (because in the past we/he said he would but it just got tossed aside again)and in order to break that cycle we need a true commitment, 1. I should only have to say it one time and he knows where I stand on the issue. And 2. If I say 'Are you ready to read the next chapter', the first thing (IMO) that should come to his mind and ask himself is 1. She's talking about our marriage again, and I remember she stressed it was very important to break the cycle and commit, and 2. Have I committed enough time to breaking the cycle?


Point blankly, and I'm not trying to offend, but are men not capable of hearing something one time and applying it when necessary instead of having to be told the same thing over and over again?

Still, in his recap, he says it in a way to somehow shift the blame towards me and change the way the conversation happened.:scratchhead:


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

communication yes, i agree as its really always the big C but,.....

i know there are other dynamics at play here (possibly) as there are also manipulation/control issues.

for instance, many a man gets tired of being manipulated into doing/being/saying something(s) repeatedly and with little to show for the effort/excercise/"event."

i also know men build up resentments for trying trying trying but never pleasing their domestic shrews. they feel weak, demasculated, frustrated, etc, at first....then the resentment/anger sets in later (if not soon).

i state these from a mans p.o.v., but know that women can feel/go thru this too (tho' most ladies will admit, they dominate when it comes to manipulative-control devices/behaviors etc). 

no woman or man is going to consistently hit home runs over time. this includes yer OM/OW in yer EA/PA's.

so lighten up francis/franchescas of the world and lets cut each other some slack for goodness sake.

----------my 2 cents worth--------------------


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BK,
I agree that he is not fighting fairly. I do. And that sucks. I also believe that YOU are choosing to fight instead of problem solve. So when he said he was "tired" why could you not say "promise me you will do this tomorrow - and put your heart into it - I need that from you". 

Instead you reacted the "EXACT SAME WAY" a needy man does when his W says she is too tired to have sex. 

Clearly he has issues. But you know what - you are at least half this problem. And if you choose to continue to interact with him this way he is going to continue to focus on the idea that "I was tired - I TOLD her I was tired and she persisted".

The BEST thing to do is get him to commit to the next day. And then nicely tell him that you will feel this is a priority if he can try to say "I can't tonight, but I promise I will tomorrow". 

Meaning you shouldn't have to be the sole driver for making this happen. He should offer some alternative if he can't do what you are asking. 

BK - have you seen "when harry met sally?" 




ButterflyKisses said:


> I would like some help in analyzing how a conversation can get so messed up. Here's how it went:
> 
> W-"Are you ready to read the next chapter of the book together?"
> 
> ...


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> BK,
> I agree that he is not fighting fairly. I do. And that sucks. I also believe that YOU are choosing to fight instead of problem solve. So when he said he was "tired" why could you not say "promise me you will do this tomorrow - and put your heart into it - I need that from you".
> 
> Instead you reacted the "EXACT SAME WAY" a needy man does when his W says she is too tired to have sex.
> ...


Ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, I could have avoided the fight. And I did go through this in my head from the minute he let me know he was too tired to read. And in going through this in my head, I did think to myself that one of the reasons I did choose to let the anger set in was because he didn't offer any kind of alternative, just said he was too tired (translates to me that he doesn't see it important) Had I thought about it long enough, I could have communicated that to him and asked him to see that him suggesting an alternative would have made all the difference in the world. 

What I didn't tell convey in my original post, was that I knew he was going to be gone all weekend (his days off) doing some work for an uncle, so I knew those days we wouldn't have the opportunity to work on us. That's part of what made it all the more important to me to not let that night go by not having accomplished anything.

Also, I just look at the fact that 5 years have been spent being unhappy in this marriage (me more than him, but him also) with all the heartache and stress and it has really taken its toll on me. Five years of halfhearted attempts, and it getting shoved to the back and ignored and I just know that 1 time of "I'm too tired to get to it" turns into another time and another time and eventually we are again to the point where it's shoved aside.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

And no, I haven't seen "When Harry met Sally".


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The mirror is so powerful when used correctly. The "emotional mirror" that is. 

This is how we use it. 
You - "What do I do that makes you feel sad and rejected"
Him - "pause while she thinks of something and then - when you do xyz that makes me feel that way"
You - "I am sorry - I actually don't do that on purpose"
Him - "I know" 
You - "Think back to how you felt the last time I did that"
Him - "OK - starts to have a sad face"
You - "When I ask you to do something that you know is important to me like these therapy exercises, and you decline because you are tired, and then you don't offer an clear alternative - like a specific nearby date, it comes across as you not making this process a priority. And THAT - the lack of making this a priority - makes ME feel sad and rejected."

And then let him talk. I know this is hard. I know this feels really bad. But you two are in "point" scoring mode more often than "problem solving" mode. And that will end badly. If you really want him to understand how YOU feel, get him to do it by having him explain how HE feels. Do it together. And don't let him off the hook. If he tries to deflect or put it back on you - "I told you I am tired". The response is "I don't feel rejected because you are tired, I feel rejected because you are not offering an alternative, it is almost like I have to "beg" to get you to do this. And that makes me feel bad. And I need you to understand that and make an effort not to keep doing this"

Sometimes it helps to do the "I am not attacking you, I am telling you what I need you to do so that I don't feel sad and rejected. Are you not understanding me, or is it that you simply think this should not bother me?" 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
BK - Every once in a while my W does what your H does. Hell maybe I do it to and just don't realize it. When she does I call it the "game of deliberate misinterpretation". I say "I need you to make this a high priority". She says "that is not a low priority to me." I say - "I am not saying it is a low priority, I am saying I need you to make it a high priority". She repeats. I finally look at her and say - email - then therapist. Do I need to do that? Suddenly comprehension occurs. Because email means I am going to write this down and if you still don't get it we can go see a third party who is going to think you are being deliberately difficult and she HATES that idea. 




ButterflyKisses said:


> Ok, I see what you're saying. Yes, I could have avoided the fight. And I did go through this in my head from the minute he let me know he was too tired to read. And in going through this in my head, I did think to myself that one of the reasons I did choose to let the anger set in was because he didn't offer any kind of alternative, just said he was too tired (translates to me that he doesn't see it important) Had I thought about it long enough, I could have communicated that to him and asked him to see that him suggesting an alternative would have made all the difference in the world.
> 
> What I didn't tell convey in my original post, was that I knew he was going to be gone all weekend (his days off) doing some work for an uncle, so I knew those days we wouldn't have the opportunity to work on us. That's part of what made it all the more important to me to not let that night go by not having accomplished anything.
> 
> Also, I just look at the fact that 5 years have been spent being unhappy in this marriage (me more than him, but him also) with all the heartache and stress and it has really taken its toll on me. Five years of halfhearted attempts, and it getting shoved to the back and ignored and I just know that 1 time of "I'm too tired to get to it" turns into another time and another time and eventually we are again to the point where it's shoved aside.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> The mirror is so powerful when used correctly. The "emotional mirror" that is.
> 
> This is how we use it.
> You - "What do I do that makes you feel sad and rejected"
> ...


The mirror, that is golden, I'm going to use that. The way I can see it playing out though is , after I say this:


"I don't feel rejected because you are tired, I feel rejected because you are not offering an alternative, it is almost like I have to "beg" to get you to do this. And that makes me feel bad. And I need you to understand that and make an effort not to keep doing this"


He will say "Well, when you persist, I feel like you don't care that I've had a hard day and that I'm tired, and now you are dragging me into a conversation that I don't want to be in after I told you I want to got to sleep. Why can't I just say I'm tired and we leave it at that?"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are likely right. And then you go to sleep and the next day you ask him: 

When you ask to have sex and I am tired, how big a difference does it make when I say:
- "Not tonight, I am tired" vs
- "I want to, but I am dead tired, can we connect tomorrow I promise it will be fun"

In the former case the message is simply: "no" very simple and very clear. Of course the subtext is "me me me". My needs - sleep are important. I am not even going to acknowledge your need to connect. Or how saying no is going to make you feel. 

In the latter case it is:
"I want to" - which is about YOU - it is a message of desire/love
"I am dead tired" - which is about HIM
"Can we connect tomorrow..." - which is about YOU and meeting your needs

An answer that is "you, me, you" feels so much better than a "me me me" answer....




ButterflyKisses said:


> The mirror, that is golden, I'm going to use that. The way I can see it playing out though is , after I say this:
> 
> 
> "I don't feel rejected because you are tired, I feel rejected because you are not offering an alternative, it is almost like I have to "beg" to get you to do this. And that makes me feel bad. And I need you to understand that and make an effort not to keep doing this"
> ...


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## moogvo (Dec 21, 2008)

ButterflyKisses said:


> Point blankly, and I'm not trying to offend, but are men not capable of hearing something one time and applying it when necessary instead of having to be told the same thing over and over again?


Simply and honestly, No. 

Most men need a detailed outline of instructions to complete any task. It's like that part of the brain goes into power save mode after leaving work. Not all men, but certainly more than the lion's share of them.

Rather than to become agitated each time you have to repeat your point, understand that he is probably one of the majority that needs to hear it each and every time. So embrace that he cannot control that, and tell him lovingly each and every time. Sure, it's frustrating, but it can tremendously help your marriage.

I have to be told probably 5 times on Tuesdays to take the trash to the road. Sometimes it still doesn't get done without rushing on Wednesday morning to do it before the truck comes. This week, I missed it altogether. I will have to put it on my truck and take it to the dump... Did I learn anything? I don't want to have to go through the hassle of hauling it off, but no, next week, it will start all over again.

I'm just a guy...


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> You are likely right. And then you go to sleep and the next day you ask him:
> 
> When you ask to have sex and I am tired, how big a difference does it make when I say:
> - "Not tonight, I am tired" vs
> ...


MEM, I love your insight. Your W is a lucky woman.

I'm going to try the things you suggested. (if he comes back, that is)

I guess I figure that working on the marriage shouldn't be just my need, it should be his also. I'm going to have to work on the fact that I have an urgency to get things resolved that he doesn't. It's just hard to consider he finds it important when I don't see the actions that I feel I should see to back up those words.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

BK,
I’m one of those men who need time to “context switch”. What do I mean? I’ve usually a whole lot of “stuff” running through my mind. Could be something to do with work, planning for tomorrow or next week or whatever. The key thing is there’s always something running through my mind. There is never a time when I’m not thinking of something.

So I need time to put away what I’ve been working on in my head and then when that’s clear switch into a new subject. That’s what I mean by context switching. Women find this far easier to do than men, it’s one of our major differences.

In this case the new subject is let’s say my marriage. That’s a pretty big subject. I would need a lot of time to bring back to mind how far we’ve got with the process and then prepare myself emotionally for the discussion. How long is a lot of time? I would say at least a day. So I could be at work and at the same time getting prepared in my head for the discussion.

It sounds like you just said to your husband something like “let’s do it now”. If that’s what happened then he had no time to “prepare”. I think he did offer you a compromise when he said let’s just do the questions. I think he could see himself handling that because all he need do is answer questions. That is just be reactive and not proactive, it doesn’t take a lot of thinking.

What do I suggest? Simply just ask him when it will be a good time for him to continue with the book. He may say tomorrow at 7 in the evening, next Friday at 8 etc. But if you do it this way you should get two things, his commitment and his attention. That’s what you want, isn’t it?

Bob


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

My W is still "in love" with me in year 21. And I with her. We are both lucky. FWIW - it is a short core list:
- She is my highest priority and she knows that because I act that way. I don't say it very often in words - I show it almost daily in deeds
- I am her highest priority - same thing
- She is killer funny - and well I do ok in the humor department as well
- We have gotten really good at conflict without harming each other - I don't mean physically we never did that. I just mean we have conflict without injuring each other emotionally
- We are super unfiltered with each other. Sometimes that is a bit raw and it hurts. But if feels good to know clearly where you stand with someone






ButterflyKisses said:


> MEM, I love your insight. Your W is a lucky woman.
> 
> I'm going to try the things you suggested. (if he comes back, that is)
> 
> I guess I figure that working on the marriage shouldn't be just my need, it should be his also. I'm going to have to work on the fact that I have an urgency to get things resolved that he doesn't. It's just hard to consider he finds it important when I don't see the actions that I feel I should see to back up those words.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

MEM, love your list. I think they are all key things a happy, healthy marriage needs at its base. The humor is an often overlooked but major positive in a relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
I was very lucky in choice of partners. I gave it some thought, but no one can really predict what a 26 year old will be like at 48. 




Trenton said:


> MEM, love your list. I think they are all key things a happy, healthy marriage needs at its base. The humor is an often overlooked but major positive in a relationship.


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> My W is still "in love" with me in year 21. And I with her. We are both lucky. FWIW - it is a short core list:
> - She is my highest priority and she knows that because I act that way. I don't say it very often in words - I show it almost daily in deeds
> - I am her highest priority - same thing
> - She is killer funny - and well I do ok in the humor department as well
> ...


From this point on I am going to stalk your posts and feed off your knowledge


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LOL - that is very kind. 

I think you are smart enough to figure your H out. You need to find a way to create a situation where:
- when things are good he is really happy AND he knows the short list of stuff that he needs to do for YOU to be happy
- when things are bad he is not happy

That might seem harsh or overly simplistic but that is the heart of it. I remember vividly two conversations W and I had before marriage - but after we started living together 20+ years ago.

The first was what she said to me one day sitting on the couch watching tv: "I HATE when you grope me - HATE IT" I was stunned - and embarrassed. And I just said "I will not grope you anymore - and I am sorry". And I just stopped doing it. More to the point I learned what she did like - coming up behind her and wrapping my arms around her shoulders and standing touching from feet to ears. (my feet just outside hers). No grinding - just full firm and a gentle hug pulling her into me. 

The second was one night when I got home from work at 1 AM. She was up and she was angry. I do software technology work - normally 9 am to 6/7 pm. But I had called her at 7 and said I would be home around 9, and then every couple hours I called and pushed it back because we had a big presentation the next day and we figured out a way to really nail it. So I get home - she is angry and says something about how ridiculous it is to work that late. So this is what I told her:

"I know you aren't used to this - your dad worked his whole career at a bank was home by 5 every day and didn't ever bring work home. I have a different job/career and a different pay scale. So this is going to happen once in a while. 

You are pregnant, we are in a recession and my company is about to make staff cuts. I was working, not partying. I was doing it for you, for baby to be and for me. When I work really late I will always tell you. When I get home you have two choices, you may be silent about my schedule, which is fine with me. Or you may say "thank you for working so hard for us". Those are your only two choices - understood?" 

And she simply nodded. And the next day I got home from work and she said "thank you for working so hard for us". 





ButterflyKisses said:


> From this point on I am going to stalk your posts and feed off your knowledge


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> LOL - that is very kind.
> 
> I think you are smart enough to figure your H out. You need to find a way to create a situation where:
> - when things are good he is really happy AND he knows the short list of stuff that he needs to do for YOU to be happy
> ...


That's one thing I can say about my H, I never have to wonder where he is, he's real good about keeping me informed if he's going to be late coming home or whatever.

When I first told him I didn't like being groped he basically just told me that I knew he was a touchy-feely person when I met him and that he would think I'd enjoy having an H that couldn't keep his hands off me. I explained to him how it made me feel and he backed off some but still kept it up every once in awhile. He says now it's more habit than anything and he'll work harder to break it. He made it a point to find out what's acceptable and what's not.

Last night we were really able to bond and connect for the first time in a long time. There was one time though where he was clearly deflecting and so I used your suggestions and they worked like a charm!


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

moogvo said:


> Simply and honestly, No.
> 
> Most men need a detailed outline of instructions to complete any task. It's like that part of the brain goes into power save mode after leaving work. Not all men, but certainly more than the lion's share of them.
> 
> ...


Whew...that's going to be a HUGE hurdle for me to get over.

I say that because, with all the responsibilities that life throws at us, I really need to depend on him to take his fair share without me having to hold his hand. When I'm busy taking care of my share, I don't have time to offer up detailed instructions.

So then, we get into me feeling like his mother and so how do I develop the admiration and respect I should have toward him?

Yep, gonna have to work on that one..


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BK,
That is great news. Happy for you. I think touch is such a gift. We massage each other many times a week. And I do it for her when I can see she has had a tough day and it is absolutely not foreplay in those situations. Which is nice for both of us. She doesn't think I am oblivious to her fatigue and trying to get her turned on - and because of that she is able to simply relax and enjoy. I like it - because I simply like giving pleasure. It feels nice to give.



ButterflyKisses said:


> That's one thing I can say about my H, I never have to wonder where he is, he's real good about keeping me informed if he's going to be late coming home or whatever.
> 
> When I first told him I didn't like being groped he basically just told me that I knew he was a touchy-feely person when I met him and that he would think I'd enjoy having an H that couldn't keep his hands off me. I explained to him how it made me feel and he backed off some but still kept it up every once in awhile. He says now it's more habit than anything and he'll work harder to break it. He made it a point to find out what's acceptable and what's not.
> 
> Last night we were really able to bond and connect for the first time in a long time. There was one time though where he was clearly deflecting and so I used your suggestions and they worked like a charm!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think the idea that a man needs to have a step by step for routine activities is ludicrous. I ALSO think that if he gets it 90 percent right - be nice about the last 10 or quickly do it yourself with a compliment. 



ButterflyKisses said:


> Whew...that's going to be a HUGE hurdle for me to get over.
> 
> I say that because, with all the responsibilities that life throws at us, I really need to depend on him to take his fair share without me having to hold his hand. When I'm busy taking care of my share, I don't have time to offer up detailed instructions.
> 
> ...


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## ButterflyKisses (Aug 30, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> I think the idea that a man needs to have a step by step for routine activities is ludicrous. I ALSO think that if he gets it 90 percent right - be nice about the last 10 or quickly do it yourself with a compliment.


This was/is a biggie for us. He's made a great improvement though, coming up from about 40 percent. My love language is acts of service (after quality time) so if he gets up to 90 percent, I will gladly forgive the last 10!


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