# Opinions please



## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Hello everyone. I'm having a hard time with something in my marriage currently. I don't know if I'm expecting something that is unreasonable or not. I'm a man in my early 40's, and I've been married for a while (> 20 yrs). I love my wife with everything that is in me. My problem is I honestly don't know how she feels about me these days. I still want her physically as much as I always have, probably more, and I have an admittedly high sex drive. I don't want it every day, but I like it around 3 times a week.

From reading the signals, my wife has lost all interest in me sexually. We are still friends, we hang out, and she honestly seems to want me around. We have date nights, I take her to movies and bring her flowers. I buy her gifts, and once a week or so I give her a foot rub just because, honestly expecting nothing in return. I love her with everything that is in me. We have 2 kids under age 10.

A little about myself, I'm a professional and I earn a good living. I work hard for my family to have a good life. My wife is able to be a stay at home mom, her choice (I'm not making her). We take family vacations, I take my wife on vacations just for the two of us too. I'm able to get in some side work which I do from home which provides some extra money for fun stuff. But in general I go to work, I come home in time to play with the kids and help out, and I tuck them in at night. I workout regularly, I'm trim, fit and I take care of myself, I guess I'm trying to get across that I'm not repulsive.

I feel like the intimacy in our marriage is completely gone, and in this section I'm going to be frank, be forewarned. She does not like to kiss me, if I get a kiss, it is a quick, dismissive, and annoyed peck. Hugs are the same way, touch as little as possible, then she turns away. When I come home, I don't get a kind word, not a hug, no kiss, not even a touch, ever, unless I initiate it. She doesn't refuse me sex, but it is very strained and forced on her part. She wants me to touch her as little as possible, no foreplay, and when I attempt it, she pushes me away. She literally wants to simply undress, climb in bed under the covers quickly, let me climb on and do my business, then hurry up and get off of her. I always try to allow her to 'arrive' before I do. Sometimes she will climax, and I don't think she's faking it because there is obvious physical evidence when I look at her body that she is aroused if you get my drift, that would be extremely hard for even a woman to fake, so she does climax sometimes. Most of the time though, she just wants me to finish and get off. Once it is done, our relationship is fine again.

She tells me that she knows she's never in the mood, and can't do anything about it. I would be fine with that, but she is so angry about it, EVERYTIME. It makes me feel guilty for putting her through that, and I don't make her, she is willing, but it is like a job it seems like, one that she hates.

She is not open to spontaneity, and it is hard to be spontaneous when you have kids. If she could find it in her somewhere to not be so angry about it, at least sometimes. That is what kills me, and it's hard for me to get turned on with her, not because I don't want her. But because she is so angry about it, when I touch her she'll rolls her eyes and shift uncomfortably. It isn't pleasant having sex with someone who despises the fact that they are having sex with you, no matter how physically attractive you fine them, and I do find my wife stunning. I love her, and I don't think I'm unattractive either. I'm a good guy and I work hard to make sure I don't become a slob.

I've reached the point now where I'm trying to curtail my sex drive and reduce the frequency. I hate that because I'm a healthy guy, and I feel like it is a healthy act for both of us. But interestingly enough, I think us having sex is actually bad for our marriage because of the anger from her. Like it isn't something I should be bothering her with. I have tried to speak with her about it for the past 4 years, but it is pointless. There might be a temporary slight change, but until she wants something different, everything will be temporary.

Am I being unreasonable?

I could go on and on, but I'll spare everyone. Thanks for letting me vent.

-Bill


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> Am I being unreasonable?


Not at all.

What does she say when you talk about it?

Have you tried to destabilize your relationship?

By destabilize I mean ....

Make yourself as sexually attractive as possible.
Be unavailable for her when she needs things
Go out by yourself to basically kill some time.
Subtly drawn the attention of other women.
Fake a mini mid life crisis.

Basically start doing things that are out of character for you.

Your wife is obviously extremely secure in your relationship.
You want to shake that security up a bit.
She holds all the cards and you let her.
Deal yourself a better hand.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Check out this website:

Married Man Sex Life

Then get a copy of the "Married Man Sex Life Primer". Start doing what it says. What do you have to lose?


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks guys. I'm going to give the Athol Kay book a look. We've been married a long time, and I guess I figured by providing comfort and security, I was doing my job. 

I think you are both right, it just seems like it should be enough to be a good guy. I grew up thinking this was my job, to take care of her and be strong. It doesn't seem like I should be playing against her in this marriage to destabilize her and get what I need. Seems like we should be on the same team working together, I provide for her needs, she provides for mine.

This isn't working however, and I'm miserable.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

do you feel 100% she is not seeing someone else?


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## lastradas (Oct 14, 2011)

romantic_guy said:


> Check out this website:
> 
> Married Man Sex Life
> 
> Then get a copy of the "Married Man Sex Life Primer". Start doing what it says. What do you have to lose?


Please don't read this book! It's absolutely degrading to women and based on nothing more than someone's personal opinion. There are plenty of books out there by people who have actually scientifically researched marital issues like yours and for sure have better solutions than this wanna-be relationship-expert. 
This book, at the very most, is good for an entertaining- although disheartening- read, but not to fix your relationship issues.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

lastradas said:


> Please don't read this book! It's absolutely degrading to women and based on nothing more than someone's personal opinion. There are plenty of books out there by people who have actually scientifically researched marital issues like yours and for sure have better solutions than this wanna-be relationship-expert.
> This book, at the very most, is good for an entertaining- although disheartening- read, but not to fix your relationship issues.


I feel like such a scoundrel.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Nothing wrong with being secure in a relationship. Shoot...that's my goal!


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## Cogo123 (Jan 5, 2012)

Wow! I would love to have a husband like you.
She doesn't know how lucky she is to have someone like you in her life.

There has to be a reason why she doesn't like sex. How could someone not want to have sex with the man they love? That is another way of expressing your love for each other.
Not to mention its just fun......I guess not to everyone.

It seems like she is not wanting to work on making things better in the bedroom. Sad because it shouldn't be a chore but something you both look forward to. As you said you mentioned to her the how you were feeling and then she changed but went right back to where she was. This leads me to believe she doesn't want to change or cannot find it in herself to change. Question is can you deal with that for the rest of your life?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zhopa (Jan 18, 2012)

Hiya Bill !

Just read through your story, and then re-read.... I understand how you feel. Mine is meaner than yours, details differ, but the essential facts are there.

Here's where I have gone since then... 

I like Tacoma's comments very much... destabilise yes, she's been unchallenged at keeping you off balance for a long time. But do it for yourself. We men have to stop putting the needs of others before our own. It gets to the point where we forget ourselves entirely.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

lastradas said:


> Please don't read this book! It's absolutely degrading to women and based on nothing more than someone's personal opinion. There are plenty of books out there by people who have actually scientifically researched marital issues like yours and for sure have better solutions than this wanna-be relationship-expert.
> This book, at the very most, is good for an entertaining- although disheartening- read, but not to fix your relationship issues.


Now that we know your objections, what is your advice to this man?


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I really don't want to make it sound all bad here. We do have fun together, we talk throughout the day, she asks me if I can come home early when I have to work late. I do think she wants me around. Just not in THAT way, but THAT is pretty huge for me.

I do feel pretty sure that she's not seeing someone else, although I gotta admit a seed of doubt has now been planted. I just don't see any evidence and I've been looking for a while. I'm pretty computer savvy (that is how I make my living), so I know how to collect information without the user knowing. Nothing. It's shopping, information on kids and the kids school, and FB. I pretty much know where she is all the time, not because I'm snooping, but because she tells me, and it's normally either at the school or with friends, so the story is always corroborated. Not secret phone calls where she doesn't want me to hear. I think part of the problem is stress with kids. Our kids are fine, but they are a challenge and she becomes very irritated in general when this becomes a real challenge. For her the frustration doesn't just go away the moment the event is over, the way it does with me. It stays. But, on a night when he kids are fine, the situation doesn't change much, so I don't know. Funny thing is, we weren't always this way, there was a long time where she was the aggressor, and it was nearly everyday, in every conceivable position. Those days are long gone now though.

I agree that I felt my duty in this marriage was to provide love and complete security in the marriage, with some fun and romance too, which I try to do. I like being the guy who takes care of things for her, I like to be her rock. I thought if she loved me, and she seems to, and I provided these things and didn't let my self go physically, then the physical intimacy would be there. That is what all women seem to say. In this case it doesn't seem to be working out that way.

Again, it sounds sort of foreign to me that the marriage would be about a game attempting to destabilize each other. But in my marriage it may make some sense, I haven't been a challenge and I've always provided exactly what she needed as soon as she asks, I'm always there for her. To try to convince myself that is a bad thing seems awkward, but maybe it is in this marriage.

Cogo123: Thank you for the kind words, and believe me if you are the type of woman who appreciates this kind of treatment from a husband, then the feeling is mutual. No, I can't deal with this forever. Our kids are still young though, and I'll be keeping this family together for their sake. Lately I gotta admit the temptation to look elsewhere gets strong, but I don't think I would go through with it. It isn't how I was raised and I think after, the anguish I'd feel would be overwhelming. I'm planning on sticking around until the kids are at least out of HS, and we'll see where we are then. I love her, and I want to stay in this marriage, but the physical side of things have got to change. 

Sorry for being so long winded here. Thanks again for letting me vent everyone, it makes me feel better.


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## mousecat (Nov 28, 2011)

I can only sympathise with you and promise that you are not alone. My situation is similar, but worse, since my wife doesn't even offer the "climb aboard and get it over with" type of sex. She just hits the pillow and goes to sleep with her back turned and offers me absolutely nothing. Whenever I try to initiate, she tells me to go to sleep. So I guess what I'm saying is, your situation sucks, but it could be worse. At least you're getting some. 

FWIW, I think your wife's attitude is terrible. It is a hurtful thing for a man to be made to feel like he's somehow a nuisance for wanting sex with the woman he loves. I know that feeling.

I wish you luck.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks mousecat. I'm sorry for your situation. I give you kudos for having the strength to stick it out there. I hope your significant other has a change of heart and things change in general for you.

Maybe I should be counting my blessings I guess.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

bclemmons said:


> Thanks guys. I'm going to give the Athol Kay book a look. We've been married a long time, and I guess I figured by providing comfort and security, I was doing my job.
> 
> I think you are both right, it just seems like it should be enough to be a good guy. I grew up thinking this was my job, to take care of her and be strong. It doesn't seem like I should be playing against her in this marriage to destabilize her and get what I need. Seems like we should be on the same team working together, I provide for her needs, she provides for mine.
> 
> This isn't working however, and I'm miserable.


I think you will find my book quite eye opening. What you're doing is supplying all her comfort and security needs, but aren't tripping off her excitement and attraction switches. There are things that you can do to change that situation fairly quickly.

What the book teaches you is how Nice Guys can add in some Bad Boy, but not devolve into total *********s.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Fair enough, and things will have to change long term I think. Maybe on my end, don't know.

I have a question for the ladies out there. I had originally planned on trying to reduce my own drive slowly by basically approaching her less frequently gradually, possibly to reduce it to not at all, hoping that maybe this might somehow change her outlook on it? Do you think this would be a mistake? Should I simply keep going with what I'm doing if she's open to it and not objecting, just extremely 'put off' by it?

FYI-

When I ask her if she wants to change the way we are doing things now, or the frequency, she says no.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

lastradas said:


> Please don't read this book! It's absolutely degrading to women and based on nothing more than someone's personal opinion. There are plenty of books out there by people who have actually scientifically researched marital issues like yours and for sure have better solutions than this wanna-be relationship-expert.
> This book, at the very most, is good for an entertaining- although disheartening- read, but not to fix your relationship issues.


That is your opinion and I respect that, but I have been sharing parts of the book and Athol's (and Jennifer's) posts with my wife and she does not think the principles are degrading at all.

As I read more on the subject from a variety of sources, I also do not think that this is one person's opinion, but a view shared by many. 

I will give you two examples. I have an awesome wife but she does not think about sex all that much. It bothered me that she does not initiate all that much. So Athol's advice? (In my words) Realize that many women won't think about sex. Get over it. You be the one to take control. Don't ask for it, just expect it. If she says no, then don't whine, just go about your day.

Lo and behold I found the same advice from sex therapist Dr. Emily Nagoski. You can find her comments here:do you know when you want it? | Emily Nagoski :: sex nerd ::

The next example relates to orgasm. My wife has no problem having an orgasm. If I was doing something wrong, or not caring if she had one or not, well that would be a different story. Athol advises that an orgasm is her responsibility, don't pressure her to have one all of the time. That one was hard for me because it turns me on so much when she is having one (her moans of delight are AWESOME) but, that also created a situation where, if she really did not want an orgasm, she would say no to sex. So I stopped expecting it and I told her that. Last week, she said, "You just go ahead" so I did. Afterwards she thanked me for not pressuring her to have an orgasm. Sometimes she just enjoys the closeness. 

I have also found this advice in other books and articles.

I have read countless books on relationships and this one hits on some very important principles. Sure, I don't agree with everything, but I rarely agree with everything in any book. Take what works (about 30% in any relationship according to Athol) and try it. One thing is for sure. If keep doing what you always have done you will keep getting what you always have gotten. Or put another way, insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.


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## Cogo123 (Jan 5, 2012)

In regards to your question about gradually going without sex altogether it just doesn't sound very plausible.
Giving up something you enjoy and something that is a normal part of any relationship is just letting her control you. That may also make you think about finding extramarital sex. Not something you want hanging over your head and you will risk losing what you do have with her and losing the woman you love more than life itself. 
I would definitely tell her what it is doing to you emotionally. She needs to understand your feelings are important too. If she loves you she will try to fix what is broken.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

bclemmons said:


> Fair enough, and things will have to change long term I think. Maybe on my end, don't know.
> 
> I have a question for the ladies out there. I had originally planned on trying to reduce my own drive slowly by basically approaching her less frequently gradually, possibly to reduce it to not at all, hoping that maybe this might somehow change her outlook on it? Do you think this would be a mistake? Should I simply keep going with what I'm doing if she's open to it and not objecting, just extremely 'put off' by it?
> 
> ...



That won't really change your sex drive.

In any case, a low sex drive in a man is unattractive, and you want to become more attractive.

It's going to take some time to switch things around.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> She tells me that she knows she's never in the mood, and can't do anything about it. I would be fine with that, but *she is so angry about it, EVERYTIME*.


Hi Bill ~

This is the part that concerns me - her anger. Her anger about it needs to be addressed because that anger hides something underneath - perhaps stewing, bubbling resentments - and you two will simply not be able to continue going on this way. Not only are you tiring of this, but she has already tired of it and has checked out. I think that it is more than just about sex - at least for her, and what it is needs to be discovered.

Can you pinpoint a place in time when things started to change? What was going on? Does she complain about anything? Nag you about anything?

How willing is she to try and address this? Does she even see it as an issue? Would she be willing to do something like 'His Needs, Her Needs' at marriagebuilders.com? Would she be willing to go to MC? Have you had these kinds of conversations with her - not the sex conversations, but the 'state of the marriage' ones?

Best wishes.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Fair enough. Right now I'm more interested in trying to kill the emotion. I want to get to the point that when I lay down beside her I don't want her. Futile?

In my mind I don't see it at her controlling me if I reduce how much I have sex with her. I see it a reducing how much I would depend on her for sex. Thus reducing my need for her altogether.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

What objective are you hoping to accomplish?

To wake her up to the issues in the marriage and try to force a change? To subvert your desire entirely and continue on in the marriage? Or ??


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

For now, to subvert desire and continue on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

lastradas said:


> Please don't read this book! It's absolutely degrading to women and based on nothing more than someone's personal opinion. There are plenty of books out there by people who have actually scientifically researched marital issues like yours and for sure have better solutions than this wanna-be relationship-expert.
> This book, at the very most, is good for an entertaining- although disheartening- read, but not to fix your relationship issues.


Yeah, I remember months ago on another thread where a guy wasn't (and still isn't) having sex with his wife. Lastradas offered up her opinions, and I told him he should read her advice closely so that he could do the opposite.

He still posts regularly about his lack of sex, and he is still busy being as nice a guy to his wife as he can, just like lastradas suggested he do.

bclemmons, please accept this as another recommendation for Athol Kay's methods and philosophy.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

I've cooled off a little now. I'm not going to do anything drastic like attempt change my current drive or frequency. I don't know if it came through in the last few message or not, but I was very irritated by the state of things. 

From discussions we've had in the past, she doesn't want things to change with us. She says she is happy the way things are, even though her body language in the sack would tell differently. She doesn't want me to go anywhere, and wants us to be together. She says she is just never in the mood, and doesn't know what to do about it. She says she wishes she could just take a pill and be immediately turned on, and she has even asked her OB/GYN about her lack of drive. Her OB/GYN told her he didn't have any magical pill or solutions, and it is a common problem that we'll need to work out. Her response is to continue trying to satisfy me in the sack, despite the fact that she is literally never in the mood. Which she does, she never turns me down. Like I said in my first post, she will orgasm sometimes, an in those moments, she is a different woman entirely, wrapping herself around me and thrusting harder than me, it isn't very often, but I live for it. I think it just becomes very frustrating for her, which becomes extremely frustrating for me. I just wish she could be more turned on, but apparently she does too.

I am going to try the Athol Kay book despite the protests of others. I know I'm not as good with women as a lot of guys, but I do recognize that what makes women happy and excited is rarely what they say that want. Women say they want a nice sensitive guy who shares his feelings and cuddles with them, in reality they tend to fantasize about bad boys with tattoos on motorcycles who tend to be silent. I'm not going to go full a**hole or anything, but I'm going to try to incorporate some things into my life that make me lean a little more to the dangerous side of things, I've got that streak, I've just been shelving it for the past 15 years or so. I've been wanting to get a tattoo for a while, maybe I'll start there. Even if nothing changes in the marriage, my confidence as a man will probably return somewhat.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

A few observations:

1. The key is to up the Alpha while keeping the Beta. You will understand when you read the book. The tattoo? I don't know, but start by getting to the gym and losing weight, if needed. As Athol says, become the best you.

2. I did not understand my wife's sexual response until recently (39 years married...took me a while huh??). I mean, here is this woman who has mind-blowing orgasms. Why wouldn't she crave that? Here is a great blog that explains it:
do you know when you want it? | Emily Nagoski :: sex nerd ::
So I don't expect her to initiate or really be in the mood because she responds and is soon in the mood.

3. Even though orgasms are her responsibility, maybe there is something you can do in your lovemaking that will help her orgasm more frequently if she wants. However, my wife (who has an orgasm 95% of the time) will sometimes be fine without one, so I will go ahead. The pressure for her not to orgasm has increased the frequency of sex, and the frequency of her orgasms. 

4. It is a great sign that she is also concerned about it.

5. If I can help in any way, send me an IM


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks, as for hitting the gym I'm pretty regular about that. I workout hard 3-4 days a week during lunch, and jog on the weekends. I do take care of myself, I'm 6'3", and weigh in at around 180 with not much fat, so I think I'm good there. I think upping the Alpha is what I need.

Your wife actually sort of sounds like my wife, except that when my wife is not in the mood, she is typically very annoyed with the entire thing. She will even admit that she never gets in the mood until we have already started. Once we are going, if I can hit a rhythm with her, and it does take a very specific rhythm I've learned, that is when the magic happens. For her, getting to that point though can seem like a struggle, and many times she just doesn't want to bother. 

As for doing something different, I'm extremely open to this, the problem is, she isn't. I try to scratch her back, put on every kind of music imaginable, light candles, serve wine with cheese and fruit, kiss, wrestle, tickle, oils, any kind of foreplay I can think of, she isn't into any of it, and after a while, it seems pathetic on my part to be working so hard, and getting no response other than annoyance. I know this sounds callused, but if I'll just do what I have to do to get myself turned on so that we can start, avoiding looking at her face (the annoyance that shows in her face turns me off completely and we are stalled at that point-I grow more frustrated that she is annoyed, and she grows more frustrated that I won't get it over with already), then if I get started and start working at that rhythm, then we're good. I'd say right now she orgasms maybe 40% of the time, but it varies depending on general stress in our lives. Two months ago I'd say she'd orgasm 70-80% of the time. It just changes, and it will change back I'm sure. The annoyance is the constant.

I mention the tattoo because she has hinted at it a few times. I wanted one, but just never considered it realistic. Maybe I should actually consider it.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> I agree that I felt my duty in this marriage was to provide love and complete security in the marriage, with some fun and romance too, which I try to do. I like being the guy who takes care of things for her, I like to be her rock. I thought if she loved me, and she seems to, and I provided these things and didn't let my self go physically, then the physical intimacy would be there. That is what all women seem to say. In this case it doesn't seem to be working out that way.


That there is a covert contract. You be the guy who takes care of things, and she gives you sex. Does she know about this connection? If not, it is an expectation you have but without her agreement. Thus, a contract she doesn't know about.

Covert contracts fuel resentment. First in you, because she didn't live up to her end of the deal. Secondly in her, because she senses your bad mood but has no idea why. A vicious cycle.

You may want to read No More Mr. Nice Guy by Doctor Robert Glover. He has a website support forum which may be helpful, too.

Other book resources are "5 Love Languages", "Passionate Marriage", and if she is working with you on strengthening your marriage you can both read and work through the book/workbook "Getting the Love you Want".

DO NOT subvert your needs. Find a way to work this out. You'll only be unhappy if you give up your basic human needs.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Now I'm curious. Not speaking about my wife now. 

Are you saying that there are wives out there who do not understand that as a married woman, they are expected to have sex with their husbands, assuming their husband is providing for their needs (emotional, security, etc)? I know there are women who don't have sex with their husbands, but I didn't think there was a misunderstanding about whether or not they are supposed to. If the husband is a complete abusive jerk, then obviously the husband isn't holding up his end of the bargain either. That would change things. 

This sounds far fetched, but who knows. 

I think my wife had this understanding before I did. In my marriage, my wife doesn't turn me down, however she never wants to at the start, and she does anyway. I appreciate that part, she is naked and in bed before I even make it to the bedroom in most cases - no misunderstanding she's ready for me, my only issue is that she comes off so angry and irritated about it, even though she doesn't refuse. When I offer the option of waiting she says I won't feel any different tomorrow, so let's go. Occasionally she will ask if we can wait, which is fine with me, in this case I give her a foot rub. But 99% of the time, it's a go, she's just not exactly happy about it.

I think I could do a much better job of being an Alpha guy. I tend to not surprise her very often, I give her what she asks for, but hardly ever pick anything out for her except for flowers. If I want her to be exciting in the sack, I should probably do a better job of being exciting outside of the sack I guess is what I'm saying.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Atholk said:


> That won't really change your sex drive.
> 
> In any case, a low sex drive in a man is unattractive, and you want to become more attractive.
> 
> It's going to take some time to switch things around.


Hey, Athol, does it (your theory) work in reverse? I need to make Hubby see what he's missing, if you get my meaning  ...


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> If I want her to be exciting in the sack, I should probably do a better job of being exciting outside of the sack I guess is what I'm saying.


That never hurts, believe me. Especially if a husband takes the time to find out the things that a wife really needs in order to stay emotionally connected and to feel loved.

You might want to explore 'The 5 Love Languages' and 'His Needs, Her Needs' to start to get some frame of reference about that.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> Fair enough, and things will have to change long term I think. Maybe on my end, don't know.
> 
> I have a question for the ladies out there. I had originally planned on trying to reduce my own drive slowly by basically approaching her less frequently gradually, possibly to reduce it to not at all, hoping that maybe this might somehow change her outlook on it? Do you think this would be a mistake? Should I simply keep going with what I'm doing if she's open to it and not objecting, just extremely 'put off' by it?
> 
> ...


I'm not a woman, but I will weigh in anways.

If this type of sexual interaction is not working for you, then stop doing it. Your wife had made it clear that she does not like it, so she's probably doing it out of some sense of duty. You continuing to accept this sends the message that, even though you'd like better, ultimately what she is providing is acceptable. This in turn allows her to feel like she is a good wife and does not have to improve.

If you decline to accept sex on those terms, she might improve if the frequency of requests was troubling her (even though I also feel this is unlikely). IMO it's more likely she will treat you even worse as she realizes that you don't need the sex and reclaim some personal power. Or, she will simply be relieved that you don't want sex any more and nothing will change.

One note: if you're refusal of bad sex is accompanied by you doing less for her, then she definitely will resent you for it. She will not make the connection that her unhappiness is a direct result of your unhappiness, because (1) you've accepted it for so long and (2) she devalues sex and does not see how it could be so important to you.

You will have to spell out exactly why you are not accepting her token attempts at sex any longer, and hope she takes you seriously and decides to try harder.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> Are you saying that there are wives out there who do not understand that as a married woman, they are expected to have sex with their husbands, assuming their husband is providing for their needs (emotional, security, etc)?


That's not quite it.

I think that women understand in the abstract that married couples have sex. But that understanding omits a lot of subtleties and omits the women's role in the process.

For instance, some women tend to think that they should not have to worry about their own arousal. They feel that if the men were treating them right they would want to have sex. Thus if they don't want sex then their men must be doing something wrong, don't deserve sex, and get upset when their men ask for sex anyways.

Some women don't conceive of sex as being part of the marital commitment and not some reward. Sex with husband does not equal regular sex with husband. Women get offended when the amount of sex requested is not what the women feel is "right".

Some women don't get that men are not looking for just a "warm hole", that loving, acceptance, and generosity are part of the responsibility. So, the women will just lie there and expect the guy to "mount up", then do not understand why the guys are unhappy.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

bclemmons said:


> Your wife actually sort of sounds like my wife, except that when my wife is not in the mood, she is typically very annoyed with the entire thing. She will even admit that she never gets in the mood until we have already started. Once we are going, if I can hit a rhythm with her, and it does take a very specific rhythm I've learned, that is when the magic happens. For her, getting to that point though can seem like a struggle, and many times she just doesn't want to bother.


You should read "Sex Starved Marriage" by Michelle Weiner Davis. You can read the first chapter free here (Divorce Busting® - Books on Marriage - First Chapter of Sex-Starved Marriage) and on Amazon, I think. You should ask your wife to read it too. It will tell you and her that many women are not in the mood until after they start, which is not at all intuitive. Also, it will, in part, help you and her understand what you are feeling - rejected, annoyed, degraded. You both need to understand what each of you is going through. If it were just sex you wanted, you could get that anywhere or alone; it is her wanting you that you want. You are lacking that mutual affection part of your relationship; that is why you crave her response, not her laying like a starfish. 


It is not just sex. If it is a chore for her - it is degrading and dehumanizing for you - she should not be doing that to you. Do not play games. You cannot make yourself want it less, but can put less pressure on her to perform. Make sure you both understand what you are feeling. The book I recommended is a start.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> Thanks, as for hitting the gym I'm pretty regular about that. I workout hard 3-4 days a week during lunch, and jog on the weekends. I do take care of myself, I'm 6'3", and weigh in at around 180 with not much fat, so I think I'm good there. I think upping the Alpha is what I need.
> 
> Your wife actually sort of sounds like my wife, except that when my wife is not in the mood, she is typically very annoyed with the entire thing. She will even admit that she never gets in the mood until we have already started. Once we are going, if I can hit a rhythm with her, and it does take a very specific rhythm I've learned, that is when the magic happens. For her, getting to that point though can seem like a struggle, and many times she just doesn't want to bother.
> 
> ...


You are getting some good advice here (Athol's book is very good, by the way). One thing to remember that seduction starts long before you get to the bed room. You need to start hours or even days before. Tocuhing her, talking to her, flirting with her, teasing her in the kitchen, family room, where ever. Do it first thing in the morning, during the day, when you get home. Show her you are attracted to her even when you can't do anything about it. 

My wife and I joke that when it comes to sex, women are like fires and men are like firefighters. With women, you need to build the fire by starting with a spark and adding fuel slowly to build it into a bonfire. Men just show up to the fire.


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## Kurosity (Dec 22, 2011)

Tall average guy and his wife got it right on the nose with the fire and firefighters way of looking at it.

I like it when my husband attens to the fire. It is little things everyday that keep my fire burnning for him. He is adding logs to my fire so he can put me out persay when the time comes to blaze between the sheets......but then he makes his way to lighting and tending to it all over again.:smthumbup:


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## Tap1214 (Aug 14, 2011)

Although you provide financial security, vacations etc, perhaps along the way you guys became disconnected emotionally in the marriage. 
I would look at two things ...
1) Are you sure she's not having EA / PA? 
2) Are you there for her emotionally? For us ladies, we need to feel emotionally connected in order to give sexually. Start flirting with her, tease her, make her laugh .....work on getting reconnected!


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## Shinobi (Jan 24, 2012)

bclemmons said:


> My problem is I honestly don't know how she feels about me these days. I still want her physically as much as I always have, probably more, and I have an admittedly high sex drive. I don't want it every day, but I like it around 3 times a week.


I feel the same with my wife, and I want her so much more now than ever before.



bclemmons said:


> I feel like the intimacy in our marriage is completely gone. She does not like to kiss me, if I get a kiss, it is a quick, dismissive, and annoyed peck. Hugs are the same way, touch as little as possible, then she turns away. When I come home, I don't get a kind word, not a hug, no kiss, not even a touch, ever, unless I initiate it.


I have this and have done so for a good 2-3 years now, I will always tell how good she looks, will always give her a kiss when I leave and return from work, and got none in return, even so much as a cuddle is apparently too restrictive to her, being playful in touch, like pinching her bum is met by a curt stop it comment.



bclemmons said:


> I have tried to speak with her about it for the past 4 years, but it is pointless. There might be a temporary slight change, but until she wants something different, everything will be temporary.
> 
> Am I being unreasonable?


It sounds very similar to myself and it is the most difficult thing in the world, just to get across how attractive they are and how you find them, myself, well my wife does not like the way she looks, and certain parts she hates, unfortunately those are the parts I really love, and I tell her so, but to no avail.

It's a tricky situation of the balance of restraining yourself to limit certain desires for the better of the other side of your relationship, but why should anyone, male or female with sexual desires towards their partner have to either go without or sound unreasonable in highlighting the issues, so no I don't feel it is unreasonable, but it certainly is a tough one and it feels good to know I am not alone in such situations.


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

Did you ever have good sex for a prolonged period of time? Sounds like sex was never that good and your wife was never into it. Knowing that, why wasn't this discussed prior. 

As for her doctor saying there is nothing she can take or do I don't think is true. There is testosterone patches for women, creams & other herbal remedies that may help. The fact that she is willing to search for that magic pill is a positive (though I think she is disingenuous).

Again though I go back to her O's. Do you discuss in detail afterwards what happened, what she felt and why it is so difficult to get there or something she does not want. 

Since you two sleep together, does she recoil when you press up against her. If she does I think then there is more in her past that she needs to open up about, because she can not say she loves you and then keep a physical distance. 

BTW 3X's a wk is not a high drive in my opinion and certainly not reading TAM.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

TAP1214: Like I said before, I am nearly positive nothing like this is going on. Like I said, I just don't see any evidence of it. I know it doesn't mean much, but she is staunchly against affairs, she's a pretty conservative woman and had a dad that left the family when she was very young - for another woman. She still holds a lot of resentment over this. She is always either home, with kids, or with her friends from church, or working as school. We talk throughout the day. Despite the way things have been off and on in the sack, in other areas we are in good shape. No secret phone calls, text messages, nothing unusual on the computer / FB. Am I there for her emotionally? I'm not exactly sure.... I listen to her very well, and I hear her out. She speaks to me and we joke together, and she laughs at my jokes. I'm just not sure that I'm there for her in the way that a man should be. But yes, I do listen to her, and I'm pretty good about not trying to fix her, I just listen, and if she asks me for an opinion I'll give it.

However....I started reading no more Mr. Nice Guy last night, and that really resonated with me. I didn't think I was, but in the first chapter of the book, I met nearly every trait of a nice guy. A few of them hadn't really occurred to me, but when I looked inward after reading about a trait, I realized it sort of was true. I've got my theories as to why this might be, but that's another topic. So, I've got some work to do on myself. I need to become the man she deserves. 

On sort of a side note, last night we had sex and I changed things up a little. I told her to roll over and lay on her stomach. I rubbed her back for a few minutes, her back had been hurting her. This was a pretty big turn on for me, I went in and start kissing her neck and she was receptive to that, and seemed to be enjoying it (she moved her head sideways to reveal more of her neck for me, normally kissing her on the neck would be an annoyance). Then our dog wanted in our room and was scratching at the door, I got up and opened the door to let the dog in - hiding behind the door just in case because #1 I was naked, #2 because I was obviously at full mast, make that full and 1/2 mast. Our daughter was right there with our dog. My wife was under the covers in bed telling her to go back to bed. She just had a question and I answered it and closed the door quickly, we laughed about this that one day when she understands why mom & dad lock the door on some nights, she's going to recall this exact moment, realize what was happening and become nauseous. Any way, we went back to what we were doing, and had a mutually enjoyable time. I love this woman and would walk to the end of the earth for her. I think I can make some changes to myself to become the kind of guy that she wants. I just need to figure out how. 

I definitely need to get better at the 'reaching into her soul' as wifeofhusband pointed out, and I need to get better at the flirting. I do it, but to me it feels unnatural, so it probably come off as unnatural, and rarely has the result I'm looking for. I think it has to do with it being a less than confident flirt from a less that confident guy these days. It probably isn't very sexy.

Thanks again everyone, last night was what I needed. I can do this and I'm gonna.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

wifeofhusband said:


> My husband spent quite a few sexually frustrated years. He too measured his worth as a husband by doing his job providing material security. I appreciated that but it wasn't what I wanted from him. He would feel bad during lean times but I was content in lean times. While he provided brilliantly, what he didn't do was share his soul with me or reach into mine as much as I needed him too. There-in is the true intimacy. Nothing makes me feel closer to my husband than when we share deeply and my husband has now realized that while he can provide, that is not what draws me closer and makes me want to progress to sexual intimacy. He also realizes that when I am starved of that kind of sharing, I eventually will seek to fill that need through other contacts (such as friends) and share less with him which compounds the situation. I wonder if this might be something that resonates with you?


A read of "The Five Love Languages" will help determine what your spouse needs to feel loved. I would suspect that "quality time" is one of yours, wifeofhusband. My wife's are "words of affirmation" and "acts of service". So, men, you can spend our time helping around the house, fixing things, being a good provider, etc. and although you wife may appreciate it, what she may really need is for you to sit down with her, talk, and bare your soul. (For my wife it is the housework, fixing things, etc.)

This post also illustrates the need that many women have to feel intimate before they desire sex. One writer said, "Men spell sex S-E-X and women spell sex T-A-L-K. 

Wifeofhusband, I am curious to know how hour husband discovered what you needed and how he changed his behavior to meet that need?

By the way, I believe that you can add alpha AND discover what your wife needs to feel loved. The two are not mutually exclusive. Also, since women are hard-wired to respond, I believe it is the man's responsibility to make the first move to meet her emotional need. Then it will be her responsibility to respond by meeting the man's emotional need for intimacy, sex.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

bclemmons said:


> TAP1214: Like I said before, I am nearly positive nothing like this is going on. Like I said, I just don't see any evidence of it. I know it doesn't mean much, but she is staunchly against affairs, she's a pretty conservative woman and had a dad that left the family when she was very young - for another woman. She still holds a lot of resentment over this. She is always either home, with kids, or with her friends from church, or working as school. We talk throughout the day. Despite the way things have been off and on in the sack, in other areas we are in good shape. No secret phone calls, text messages, nothing unusual on the computer / FB. Am I there for her emotionally? I'm not exactly sure.... I listen to her very well, and I hear her out. She speaks to me and we joke together, and she laughs at my jokes. I'm just not sure that I'm there for her in the way that a man should be. But yes, I do listen to her, and I'm pretty good about not trying to fix her, I just listen, and if she asks me for an opinion I'll give it.
> 
> However....I started reading no more Mr. Nice Guy last night, and that really resonated with me. I didn't think I was, but in the first chapter of the book, I met nearly every trait of a nice guy. A few of them hadn't really occurred to me, but when I looked inward after reading about a trait, I realized it sort of was true. I've got my theories as to why this might be, but that's another topic. So, I've got some work to do on myself. I need to become the man she deserves.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

Awesome!!!

They always say that any journey starts with taking the first step, and I'm happy to see you taking that step.

Wishing you all the best.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Hi Bill ~
> 
> This is the part that concerns me - her anger. Her anger about it needs to be addressed because that anger hides something underneath - perhaps stewing, bubbling resentments - and you two will simply not be able to continue going on this way. Not only are you tiring of this, but she has already tired of it and has checked out. I think that it is more than just about sex - at least for her, and what it is needs to be discovered.
> 
> ...


I think there are many instances where women loose interest or the motivation to have sex and some destabilization (or some other intervention) is needed to try and correct the problem. 
You sound like a great Hubby and father. You should be commended on many levels. I share many of your values/traits. That said this anger thing is not normal behavior. The behavior as enchantment mentions is symptomatic of some resentment. 
One other thing that I should point out is that your attitude toward considering “getting over it (the no sex thing)” is well sorry to be harsh but, sickening..i mean is a marriage where sex is a chore and where the spouse is made to feel bad really a marriage. There seem to be this notion that sex is some sort of luxury that as men we should feel lucky that we were able to get it during the “honeymoon phase” bunk… The fact that you say “everything in our marriage is great except sex” is an alarming yet all to common phrase on this site. When you both took vows you agreed to be married not to be roomates/best friends. She should be a willing participant in the bedroom, if there is a problem (which I sense there is) get to the bottom of it. Good luck


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Enchantment & tjohnson:

I guess I didn't address whether I've attempt to have a conversation with her on the issue.

I have many times. The answer is always the same, she feels overwhelmed. She feels like she doesn't have any time for anything, especially herself. Between taking care of the kids, fixing dinner, washing clothes, cleaning the house, and the fact that she works part time -- She does have a part time job, which she works from home in an office I setup. She doesn't have to work this job, we are fine without it. She says she wants to keep it because it makes her feel like she is accomplishing something. But with all of this, she feels that she is always behind. But yes, I do address the subject directly, outside of the bedroom. 

I don't expect her to keep everything spotless, and I don't complain about any of it. I think it is a expectation she puts on herself. I do help do things around the house sometimes when I get home from work, but typically I need to be spending time with the kids before they go to bed, so I take them outside and do stuff. Her reason seems to be legitimate, and when the house is clean, and the kids aren't going bonkers, things are better. I've offered to hire a maid to come in once a week or so to lighten the burden, but I think this makes her feel even worse. Also, one of ours kids is pushing boundaries right now, so that doesn't help matters. When she talks about her frustration over things, it always goes straight to her feeling overwhelmed and behind, and that she should be able to just handle it. She feels like she can't, and becomes very frustrated. I ask her directly if 'we're okay' and if I need to be doing something for her, she says we're fine, and she's sorry.

I think this is where I can take the lead a little and provide more of a backbone in things, and just do. I need to stop asking if she needs anything, and I need to just take the lead and get whatever it is done. I do give her time away to just hang out with friends away from us.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

wifeofhusband said:


> It wasn't easy but I eventually got it through to him. I did have to point blank tell him things like 'If you think I spend too much time on the computer talking to friends maybe you should ask yourself what need they are meeting and look at how you could meet that need instead so I don't need to go looking for it elsewhere?' (I had always tried him first). Conversation went something like this:
> Me: " ... is happening at work and I'm finding it really difficult".
> Him: "Quit". *goes back to doing something else*
> 
> ...


That is trully an enlightening story thanks for caring enough to share. Sometimes we guys get caught up in the 'doing stuff mode" and miss the little things that we should be tuned into. 

Why is it though it seems your H had to read your mind. What stoped you from being direct (or were you).


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

Wifeofhusband, thanks!!! Great story!!! Our story is similar, although the issues were different. I could write a book about all of the things I (and we) had to overcome being married so young. But 39 years later it is AWESOME!! I think about her all day and can't wait to get home to her every night. We LOVE our weekends together. We just can't get enough of each other!!!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BC,
Are you willing to try an experiment? Tell your W you want 20 minutes to do something different. And tell her that it has no sexual component to it. 

And then give her a massage. While doing it, ask her what she likes: harder, softer, faster/slower, what spots feel best. 

Unless you break the negative association of your touch - there is no chance of improvement. 




bclemmons said:


> Enchantment & tjohnson:
> 
> I guess I didn't address whether I've attempt to have a conversation with her on the issue.
> 
> ...


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> BC,
> Are you willing to try an experiment? Tell your W you want 20 minutes to do something different. And tell her that it has no sexual component to it.
> 
> And then give her a massage. While doing it, ask her what she likes: harder, softer, faster/slower, what spots feel best.
> ...


Ah mem1133..... Always going on about massages...... Just can't help yourself can you.....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HSTS,
I don't know how else he can break this negative association with touch. 

Do you have a suggestion for him?

And my personal experience is that my W melts when I give her non-sexual (full body) hugs, and massages. She loves that. And I do to. 

If she was "tense" whenever I touched her - I would be unable to have sex with her. It would feel degrading - to me - to her - to our marriage. 




Havesomethingtosay said:


> Ah mem1133..... Always going on about massages...... Just can't help yourself can you.....


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> HSTS,
> I don't know how else he can break this negative association with touch.
> 
> Do you have a suggestion for him?
> ...


Was having fun with you mem11363..... But yes you do always pull the massage card. I'm sure the OP's spouse would be tense, uncomfortable and leery of that type of touch.

They need MC or a sex therapist.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay: Currently I'm already sort of doing this. I give her foot rubs once or twice a week which specifically lead to nothing else. Also, on the very rare occasion that she will ask me if we can wait to have sex due to whatever reason, I will automatically give her the foot rub every time, and no hassle over sex. Foot rubs are her favorite, and before I would give them to her regularly, this is what she would ask for.

I will begin giving her some non-sexual full body massages as well. The more and more I look at my situation, and the way things have been going -- now that I'm able to step back and not be so focused in on what I'm not getting. I think I need to assert more alpha characteristics. When things seem to her to be falling apart or get chaotic for her, I tend to stay away. Mainly because I don't want to get swept up in her frustration and become yet another source -- which is a very beta characteristic, and the fact that I'm not taking over to help provide some stability in those times, probably irritates her more. Generally I need to behave, as more of an alpha type guy, the more I read about it, the more I see that I'm a textbook beta, nearly every example fits me. I'm an NICE GUY.

For example, normally, I've gotten so used to her being so irritated with things, and how she acts during sex, that I'm sort of beat down and I guess somewhat intimidated that this is going to be the response yet again when I start initiating sex. As I've read in many posts here, that is extremely NOT sexy to women. One time in particular, when we were getting started, she shifted uncomfortably and let out a loud annoyed sigh. This irritated me, so I asked in an irritated tone, "what's wrong". Her response: "Stop being so sensitive, don't be a weenie!". Now, there have been a few times over the past year where I've had major successes in something I was working on, or just had an instance of spontaneous confidence, but when we went into the bedroom, I had a high level of confidence and felt good. I had no hesitation and knew what I wanted and was going to have it. In those instances, I was able to instinctively just sort of naturally assert my will over hers. Any mild objections she might have displayed at first, melted away immediately. In those times, she was on fire and had a crazy orgasm almost immediately, while kissing my neck and chest over and over. Then, even when I was done and ready to get up, she continued to hold me against her, and inside her, and wouldn't let me up for a while. She wanted me to stay right there.

The next time we would head into the sack, I wouldn't get the same response, then the time after I wouldn't either. I think I let this shake my confidence that I can't do this over and over. The difference was probably my confidence level, probably the 1/2 second of hesitation I showed, and probably the shaken confidence on my face.

She doesn't like to talk about sex much, but she does enjoy it. Last night was another good night for us, not as good as the previous night, but again, I think I might have been the difference, plus this pushing boundaries phase from our daughter seems to be coming to an end.

I need to up my alpha, I need to man up, and it needs to be natural. This will take some work. I'm not going to go full abusive jerk, and start hurting anyone. But I honestly think she wants me to have the confidence and self respect to take what I want, to take her, and not wait for it to be just served up for me with a smile. I gotta work for her to blossom like that. She will, but I gotta work for it.

I need to knock out these long winded messages.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Clemmons:

YOu just described what should be a TV show: "Sex in the Suburbs". . .I am not sure why American women, when apparently have it all (or at least a comfortable upper middle class existence) decide to become asexual.

Good luck.

Sorry I can't help.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

You know. . .I guess I can help a bit. . .I guess with a lot of men (maybe most men?) we kind of feel there is a "contract" - you provide a good life to a woman, be nice and respectful to her, and she'll be happy and horny.

It just doesn't often work out that way.

Female sexuality is more complicated that a simple economic exchange, although, to your credit, you dont' see too many women hooking up with street bums. So, you are doing right there.

If you are a "nice guy", you may have to relinquish your old ways and adopt a "no mr. nice guy" philosophy to get anywhere with this.

I am not sure if I read you correctly, but did your wife actually say to you, "Don't be such a weenie!" while in bed with you?

If she felt so emboldened to say something like that, then yes. . .you need to come over the men's forum and be schooled in the ways of No More Mr. Nice Guy.

That is completely unacceptable.

You have planted the seeds of Shrewness in your wife. . .and over time, those seeds will grow and become an unmanagable thicket.

Besides all the self-helpish type of books out there, I think it does well to read the classics - get out William Shakespeare's "The Taming of the Shrew" and reflect upon what the Great Bard had to say about male-female sexuality.

Our current modern day authors have only repackaged what the Great Bard wrote.


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## bclemmons (Jan 20, 2012)

Scannerguard, you had it right. She did tell me that in bed, but I don't take it so much as an insult as a wake up call now (even though it was an insult). I was irritated but more hurt by what she had done just before she said that. When I say irritated and hurt, I mean the way a young boy get's his feelings hurt when he doesn't get something. She was telling me right then in her frustration to man up. If I want her to be a real woman, I need to be a man. I need this in general, in other parts of my life. I guess I sort of always knew it,but hadn't faced it or confronted it. It feels like it's time.

I am reading No More Mr. Nice Guy currently, and have been reading about fitness tests, which it sounds like I had no idea were occurring, and I've been failing them all.

I will head over to the Men's Club House and introduce myself. I don't know if you read that entire last post, but things are a bit better, but it seems to mostly depend on me and how I approach her. 

Thanks.


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