# My wife is thinking about divorcing me, please give me some advice



## SevenEight

We got married less than one year ago, after being in a relationship for close to 4 years. I'm a pretty introverted person, and so it's really hard for me to open up and talk about this stuff with anyone other than her, but I think I need to hear things from others. I read some of the stories on this forum that have helped me. This is hard for me to write but I hope someone can offer some insight.

I love my wife dearly, and I don't want us to get divorced. I'm in my mid 30s and never thought I would want to get married until I met my wife. She also has felt the same way. We have had a lot of ups and downs in our relationship already, but when things are good betwen us have more passion, love, and genuine care for each other than I ever imagined I would have with someone. I know she has felt the same way before. She has had some pretty severe at times mental health issues (depression, bipolar, co-dependency issues), and even though I have always had nothing but good intentions towards her, I'm sure there were times when I wasn't supportive enough and wish I could go back and show her more affection and love. She was pregnant but the pregnancy didn't last, and she was devastated. I tried to support her in it, but I now know that she felt like I didn't care enough at the time (I did! very much! but I was more concerned with her health, getting better, and trying again, and I think she perceived this as me not caring very much). When she was in despair, I tried to talk to her too rationally, and she ended up just feeling worse about herself, when I now know that she just needed love and encouragement. I regret this so much right now.

Recently I began to feel that she has gotten colder towards me. When I confronted her, she told me that about 30% of the time she wishes we had never gotten married. I was crushed. Even with some of the hardships that we had gone through, I was (still am) completely committed to working through any difficulties and growing our relationship for the rest of our lives. After that things got worse for me, and I have become emotional and devastated. I just want her loving ways back, to show her I will do anything I can for her, and to work through whatever we can. For the longest time she was absolutely loving and affectionate towards me, in ways I never thought I would have. I'm afraid I may never get that back. She told me that she feels that she has lost some of her own identity in our relationship. I may have had some insecurity and jealousy with her, but I don't think I was too obsessive or possessive. I never tried to control her actions, but I think sometimes when I would express discontent she would just give in to my wishes, and later this became a source of hard feelings towards me. I have told her that I would love for her to work on her co-dependency issues with me, and that I will try my hardest to encourage her to be herself and not give in to my discontent sometimes.


I have sent her some pretty heartbroken letters in the past week, as well as had some conversations. I know I need to be strong, but I felt it was important for her to know how much I really love her and want to work things out. She has said some things to me that were pretty devastating, like "I love you but I'm not in love with you". When I asked her about how we talked about growing old together, she said she was embarrassed to have said that. This was absolutely terrifying to hear. I completely let my guard down with her, knowing in my heart that she was one that I would never have to have guards against, and now this is happening. Parts of my days and nights lately have been close to unbearable, wondering what I can do, trying to stay strong.

As of now, she told me that she needs 3-6 weeks to decide. We still hang out, have had sex several times, but I know there is coldness and emotional detachment lately. I get the feeling that she still cares a lot for me, loves me, but is seriously considering that her life might be better without me as her husband. 

She has a daughter from a previous person, who is now 7, who is also a big part of my life, who I have grown to love.

I know I shouldn't want her to be with me unless she really wants to be with me, but I desperately want her to be in love with me again and know that I regret not giving her more love and affection when she needed it. She has said it might be too late.

I am trying to be strong, be independent and give her time to sort through and process, but it is *so *difficult. She hasn't said that it is over, that she needs 3-6 weeks, so I am really desperate to show her and convince her to stay. I just keep fearing and seeing signs that she might choose to leave.

I work a decent job full time, work out regularly, and have plenty of self-worth. But it is getting really hard to keep doing those things right now. So far I have been doing it though. I have also been trying to reach out to people I haven't spoken with for a long time - old friends and some family members. I haven't told anyone what is going on with my wife and I because I'm not comfortable confiding like that with most people I know.

I would really appreciate anybody's comments or insight, and I sincerely thank you if you took the time to read all this.


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## nickgtg

I've discovered that if your wife feels the way she does, the more you try to be close with her and give her attention it only has the opposite effect. It's hard, but give her space. I've discovered that you can go insane worrying about something you have no control over.

If you don't have a hobby, get one. Do things that make you happy. If you want to go out, maybe you can ask her if she would go with you. If she says yes, that's great. If she says no, don't sulk and just go do it. 

You mentioned you have no kids, which is a good thing. My 1st marriage ended after five years and it was very easy to walk away. We had no kids and the divorce actually only cost me the filing fee of $150. Sometimes it just isn't meant to be.

If you want it to work though you need to back off and quit putting pressure on her, that doesn't work, trust me. You can't force her to love you, you can't force her to stay with you either.

All you can control is you.


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## SevenEight

nickgtg said:


> I've discovered that if your wife feels the way she does, the more you try to be close with her and give her attention it only has the opposite effect. It's hard, but give her space. I've discovered that you can go insane worrying about something you have no control over.
> 
> If you don't have a hobby, get one. Do things that make you happy. If you want to go out, maybe you can ask her if she would go with you. If she says yes, that's great. If she says no, don't sulk and just go do it.
> 
> You mentioned you have no kids, which is a good thing. My 1st marriage ended after five years and it was very easy to walk away. We had no kids and the divorce actually only cost me the filing fee of $150. Sometimes it just isn't meant to be.
> 
> If you want it to work though you need to back off and quit putting pressure on her, that doesn't work, trust me. You can't force her to love you, you can't force her to stay with you either.
> 
> All you can control is you.


Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it. They are things I already knew, but it really helps to hear others say it. I've been doing a lot of reading and soul searching lately and I know this is good advice. 

In total I have sent her 4 letters/emails, and two of them were pretty emotional and desperate, and probably did put a lot of pressure on how she feels about us. The last one I sent yesterday was a lot more level-minded, I think. I'm not going to send any more, and just give her time to process.

The last couple days have been a little easier to not act and look so desperate in front of her, but it's still really hard. She still texts and calls many times each day, and at times acts loving towards me so it's really giving me mixed signals and making things more complicated for me. 

I've thought about telling her that we should not see or communicate with each other for a few days or even longer so we can both process things. However, I really don't want to reject her when she reaches out to me, because I love her deeply and don't want to hurt her if she needs me.

Tomorrow we are taking her daughter out for bowling. I will try hard not to show desperation and just have a good time, but I know it will be difficult.

Thank you again for the reply.


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## Thoreau

I'm thinking there's another man involved. Start investigating.


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## nickgtg

It seems like a lot of the advice that is given is the same, and I think it's for one simple reason, it works most of the time.

I've learned that pleading, begging, crying, saying I'll change does more harm than good. Women want a man, not some whiny thing.

I know when I first met my wife the first thing she would tell me is that she finally found a real man. That felt good to hear.

No more letters, no more emails, whatever. I still send texts to my wife because that's something we've always done. I keep it simple though, like "I made it to work sweetheart." She usually reply back with something like "Good, I'm glad you made it there safely, have a good day."

Of course I'd like to hear "I love you so much!" or something similar, but at least she's not ignoring me. Sometimes I think you've got to take whatever you get and just move forward.


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## Tigger

Is she willing to go to marriage counseling?

I think that might be your best bet.


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## SevenEight

Thoreau,

I hope you are not right, and I don't really believe that she would do that. She is very attractive so I'm sure if she wanted to she could anytime she wanted, but I don't think she would do that to me. Even though I have my jealous moments and insecurity I don't think I want to go down that path of investigating her. I don't want to destroy my trust for her if I can avoid it.


Nick,
Yeah, I'm sure you are right, but I'm normally not that type of person (whiny, pathetic). In the past my wife has been extremely attached to me (for years) and would send me texts, emails, etc all the time. I really loved that she was this way, a lot more loving and affectionate than any other person I've been with. That was a big part of what made me fall for her, especially because we were like that to each other for years, not just the initial phase of our relationship. I just really let my guard down because I trusted her that we would work through any hardships when we agreed to get married. I guess nothing is decided yet, so I'm hoping for the best.

I'm going to try to have more inner strength and not show my weakness around her anymore.

I do have plenty of hobbies which I've always done, and I am trying to focus on those more.


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## Thoreau

Nobody thinks their wife would do that, but guess what? Many do.

It will do you no good to bury your head in the sand. Start investigating.


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## SevenEight

Tigger said:


> Is she willing to go to marriage counseling?
> 
> I think that might be your best bet.



I hope so. When I asked her initially, she said she wouldn't want to go. But then when I asked her again another time, she said that she would want us to go individually first, and then as a couple after that.

So I'm not sure if in the end she would go or not, but I hope so.


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## SevenEight

Thoreau said:


> Nobody thinks their wife would do that, but guess what? Many do.
> 
> It will do you no good to bury your head in the sand. Start investigating.



I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't want to invade her privacy and ruin any chance of real trust. At the moment she is not working, and does not go out because she's always taking care of her daughter. 

Plus, If I were to completely invade her privacy by monitoring her computer usage, phone usage, etc, and then find out she never did anything wrong, it's a huge secret and breach of trust that I have to live with that I don't want. In the past it's been a struggle for me to have trust sometimes, so I try extra hard now to trust her. I think it's necessary for a healthy relationship.

Over a year ago I did look in her email accounts and found some things that were dishonest and hurtful (but never cheating or intent to cheat). I confronted her, came close to leaving her, then we worked it out. Slowly since then I have been letting that go and trusting again. However I know now that she has trust issues with me, often wondering if I'm monitoring her. There have been many times since then that I have struggled to truly let go and trust again, so I always try to give her the benefit of the doubt now.

I hope that it doesn't come back to bite me, but that's where I stand on that.


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## nickgtg

You can try and justify it all you like, but there should be no secrets in a marriage, none. Of course if you snoop, there's nothing there and she finds out, it could damage or end the relationship.

If you have a gut feeling then act on it.


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## Thoreau

SevenEight said:


> I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't want to invade her privacy and ruin any chance of real trust. At the moment she is not working, and does not go out because she's always taking care of her daughter.
> 
> Plus, If I were to completely invade her privacy by monitoring her computer usage, phone usage, etc, and then find out she never did anything wrong, it's a huge secret and breach of trust that I have to live with that I don't want. In the past it's been a struggle for me to have trust sometimes, so I try extra hard now to trust her. I think it's necessary for a healthy relationship.
> 
> Over a year ago I did look in her email accounts and found some things that were dishonest and hurtful (but never cheating or intent to cheat). I confronted her, came close to leaving her, then we worked it out. Slowly since then I have been letting that go and trusting again. However I know now that she has trust issues with me, often wondering if I'm monitoring her. There have been many times since then that I have struggled to truly let go and trust again, so I always try to give her the benefit of the doubt now.
> 
> I hope that it doesn't come back to bite me, but that's where I stand on that.


She is showing all the classic signs, and following the script. You asked for advice, but you're not willing to take it.

Let us know how this works out for you.


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## caladan

Dude, don't snoop. It won't change anything, it won't stop her from leaving you if she wants to. It could make her leave, and if you found something, it could give you closure, though fat good that would do you if she leaves.

In my book, it's not worth it at all.


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## SevenEight

Well, shortly after reading some of the responses I went against what I wanted to do and looked in her email.

She has been cheating on me for sure with one guy, talking all sorts of terrible things about me to her friends like that this marriage was the worst decision she ever made, that it's like a mold that's spreading, that I am evil and not to look into my eyes, called me the "doom-mate", said we are "co-habitating". F*ck! It has now been a couple days and I am absolutely devastated. I've actually been shaking at times when trying to conversate with her or when trying to sleep. Today I went and got some meds to try to relax. I'm not violent, so don't take the shaking as a sign of danger, it's a nervous tick where it feels like my mind and body are trying to shake off the information that it has.

I found sexually explicit emails with things that she had done for me, but sent to another guy. This nice "other guy" apparently at first had a problem because my wife was still married, but through my wife's consistent attempts at convincing him, they finally got past that minor moral obstacle of our marriage. I hope this guy gets it back in some way.

I am beyond hurt, pissed, betrayed, vulnerable.

In addition to all this she had been sending provocative pictures (not nude, but in underwear/thongs/etc) to at least 4 other guys in addition. FUUUUUU*CK!

It gets even better. Right as I'm livid with anger and at the same time crushed because I really let my heart go for this woman, I get a text asking if I wanted to spend the night at her mom's house that night. She was housesitting.

I pulled it together and said sure, I'd go.

We get there, she's doing a great job of acting like she's still into me. By the way, her text said something like "you've really captured my heart this week..." because of my extra efforts to do whatever it takes to get our marriage back on track.

We start talking. I tell her about all the tiimes that I realized I could have done better, and how I really wanted her to communicate better to me if she's upset about something. Eventually I tell her I don't think she's being honest. She denies, denies, denies. I flat out ask her if she's cheating. She continues to deny. At my request, she looks me in the eyes and says "I swear to God that I'm not cheating on you".

We go to sleep. I am so upset in my sleep that I'm having shakes, spasms, and mini convulsions from my body/mind rejecting what I know and feel. I think I probably fell asleep for about 2 hours the whole night.

She's obviously worried about me, and seems to geniuinely want to make sure I'm alright. She drives me home, I'm still shaking at times.

Later at home I confront her again. This time I say - ok if you're not cheating, let me look at your phone and your laptop. She let's me look at her phone, because all evidence was already deleted. However, the laptop, no way. She actually tries to turn it around and get mad at me for trying to invade her privacy. At this point I just flat out say "I know you are cheating". She asks with who? I tell her (initials are ED). "I only ****ed him two times" she says. I tell her "thank you for being honest". I am a ****ing loser for saying that.

Since then we've had many conversations and we are going to see a counselor. I really don't know if there's anything left for us, but some part of me still loves her and wants to forgive her if I can. I honeslty don't know if I can, and I honestly don't know if I would ever be able to trust again.

I'd still like to go to counseling, if anything, just to get closure and know the whole story

I don't know, this sucks beyond anything that's ever happened to me. I completely loved this woman, still do for some reason, and she ripped my heart out with her actions. I'm sure I did plenty of stupid things in our relationship, but I was committed to working through whatever came our way for the rest of our lives.

The last two days have been the absolute lowest fn points of my life. I told my boss at work about it so I could take the rest of the week off, and it's close to unbearable at times.

And for some reason I still desperately want to make things better with her, if there is a way to forgive and know for sure this would never happen again.

What the f is wrong with me?


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## Thoreau

Yep. Just like we said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SevenEight

Thoreau said:


> She is showing all the classic signs, and following the script. You asked for advice, but you're not willing to take it.
> 
> Let us know how this works out for you.


Thoreau, thank you. I wish you were wrong, but you were not.

My life sucks right now.


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## Thoreau

It does. Now stay here and listen to what these people have to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> I would really appreciate anybody's comments or insight, and I sincerely thank you if you took the time to read all this.


Get your head out of your rear and find out who the other man is.

Then you can maybe do something to get her back but unless you "know" who he is and what she`s up to with him you`re going to lose her.

There is another man my friend, you just posted a copy of the script.


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> I appreciate what you are saying, but I don't want to invade her privacy and ruin any chance of real trust. At the moment she is not working, and does not go out because she's always taking care of her daughter.
> 
> Plus, If I were to completely invade her privacy by monitoring her computer usage, phone usage, etc, and then find out she never did anything wrong, it's a huge secret and breach of trust that I have to live with that I don't want. In the past it's been a struggle for me to have trust sometimes, so I try extra hard now to trust her. I think it's necessary for a healthy relationship.
> 
> Over a year ago I did look in her email accounts and found some things that were dishonest and hurtful (but never cheating or intent to cheat). I confronted her, came close to leaving her, then we worked it out. Slowly since then I have been letting that go and trusting again. However I know now that she has trust issues with me, often wondering if I'm monitoring her. There have been many times since then that I have struggled to truly let go and trust again, so I always try to give her the benefit of the doubt now.
> 
> I hope that it doesn't come back to bite me, but that's where I stand on that.



I`ll give you a hint.

The guy she`s interested in is very alpha, a mans man.

The post I quoted convinces me of that.
If you continue down that path your marriage is doomed.


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## anchorwatch

Here these may be of help,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.html

Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley

READ THEM!!!


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## the guy

So your old lady is cheating ?


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## the guy

Your approach has to change right now and a 180 is in order allthe way around.


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## the guy

Your next letter should consist of a list of division of assets.

I say this cuz. its time to show her you can be b oth sensitive and aggressive when it comes to protecting your self from more of her deciet.


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> Well, shortly after reading some of the responses I went against what I wanted to do and looked in her email.....


You`d think I`d have learned to read the whole thread by now.

Sorry about your discovery but counseling will be no good since she`s still seeing the OM.

Is he married?
Have a girlfriend?

Who is he and what do you know about him?


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## SevenEight

I'm so overwhelmed right now I don't know what to do, can barely function.

I know a 180 would be the appropriate thing to do but lately it's been real hard to do anything at all. I am torn between wanting to cuss her out and never see her again and hanging on to what I thought was the best, truest love of my life.


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> I'm so overwhelmed right now I don't know what to do, can barely function.
> 
> I know a 180 would be the appropriate thing to do but lately it's been real hard to do anything at all. I am torn between wanting to cuss her out and never see her again and hanging on to what I thought was the best, truest love of my life.



The OM...

Is he married?
Have a girlfriend?

Who is he and what do you know about him?


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## SevenEight

the guy said:


> Your next letter should consist of a list of division of assets.
> 
> I say this cuz. its time to show her you can be b oth sensitive and aggressive when it comes to protecting your self from more of her deciet.


Thankfully we don't have many shared assets at all. If it comes to it financially, this one wouldn't be very difficult.

I hear what you are saying that I should just leave asap - it's probably what I would say to anyone else.


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> Thankfully we don't have many shared assets at all. If it comes to it financially, this one wouldn't be very difficult.
> 
> I hear what you are saying that I should just leave asap - it's probably what I would say to anyone else.


Do not leave your house !!

Not on a permanent basis anyway.

Do you know anything about the other man?
The guy your wife is interested in.


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## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> The OM...
> 
> Is he married?
> Have a girlfriend?
> 
> Who is he and what do you know about him?


I don't believe he is married. No idea if he has a girlfriend or not. She had him as a college psychology professor a couple years ago, and they kept in touch as friends. They are around the same age. She has had some mental illness issues before, so I just thought it was ok because he had some knowledge that he could share. Like a fool, I gave her the benefit of the doubt and didn't question their "friendship".

Some of the emails I saw between them were just fn infuriating. A lot of the same language, same ideas, etc that I thought my wife reserved for me. I don't know whether to rage or curl up into a ball and cry.


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## the guy

Breath, stay calm and come up with a plan before you confront her about the emails.

You will get thru this, we all did, and we have been there and have many just like you. I have been here avery long long long time, I have seen the mistakes and I have seen what works.

You will make it, just chill the phuck out right now and do not jump the gun with a very ineffective confrontation!!!!!!


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## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> Do not leave your house !!
> 
> Not on a permanent basis anyway.
> 
> Do you know anything about the other man?
> The guy your wife is interested in.


Oh, no I didn't mean I'm going to leave our house. We actually rent, and she apparently hates it here, so she would definitely be the one leaving.

See my previous post for info on the OM. I know his name, where he works, etc.


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## the guy

Do not leave !!!!!!!!!!!

Step out for a few but do not leave!!!!!!


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## Thoreau

Rage. Don't be a *****.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

Is he married or have a GF?


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## the guy

Sorry I'm a little late on all this, but I want to help.


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## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> I don't know whether to rage or curl up into a ball and cry.


Go someplace and rage then cry but sometime before dawn you better have some idea of what you want and intend to do.

Do you want your wife anymore?

What would it take for you to consider trying to work it out?

I still advise finding out everything you possibly can about the OM from some other source than your wife as she'll lie to protect him.

If you can strike at him you can effectively destroy the affair regardless of what you decide to do.


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## SevenEight

the guy said:


> Breath, stay calm and come up with a plan before you confront her about the emails.
> 
> You will get thru this, we all did, and we have been there and have many just like you. I have been here avery long long long time, I have seen the mistakes and I have seen what works.
> 
> You will make it, just chill the phuck out right now and do not jump the gun with a very ineffective confrontation!!!!!!


I already confronted her. That's how I finally got her to admit she was cheating. It's in the long post where I said how I found out. I was testing to see if I could get her to admit to it, and she failed miserably. She only admitted it after I basically told her the guys name and that I had read the emails.


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## the guy

SevenEight said:


> I don't believe he is married. No idea if he has a girlfriend or not. She had him as a college psychology professor a couple years ago, and they kept in touch as friends. They are around the same age. She has had some mental illness issues before, so I just thought it was ok because he had some knowledge that he could share. Like a fool, I gave her the benefit of the doubt and didn't question their "friendship".
> 
> Some of the emails I saw between them were just fn infuriating. A lot of the same language, same ideas, etc that I thought my wife reserved for me. I don't know whether to rage or curl up into a ball and cry.


Stop and think about the best way to have an effective confrontation, and this could take a a day or two, but with the right info you can make a big difference in how your wife looks at you from here on out.


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## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> Go someplace and rage then cry but sometime before dawn you better have some idea of what you want and intend to do.
> 
> Do you want your wife anymore?
> 
> What would it take for you to consider trying to work it out?
> 
> I still advise finding out everything you possibly can about the OM from some other source than your wife as she'll lie to protect him.
> 
> If you can strike at him you can effectively destroy the affair regardless of what you decide to do.


Some probably sick part of me doesn't want to let go of her, wants to make things right if I can forgive her. I honestly don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive and trust again though.

That's why we are going to see a counselor, just to lay it all out, maybe get some closure, or figure out what next.

I'm tellin ya it's taking a lot of composure to act civil to her during this. Probably due to the fact that in my stupidity I chose this woman as the one that I "knew" I could trust fully with my heart. Fuuk


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## the guy

SevenEight said:


> I already confronted her. That's how I finally got her to admit she was cheating. It's in the long post where I said how I found out. I was testing to see if I could get her to admit to it, and she failed miserably. She only admitted it after I basically told her the guys name and that I had read the emails.


So now that you have revealed you source, whats your plan in gathering intell on her next move?

Is this an exit affair?

Again I'm coming in late.

Is there another thread that will get me caught up?


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## SevenEight

the guy said:


> Stop and think about the best way to have an effective confrontation, and this could take a a day or two, but with the right info you can make a big difference in how your wife looks at you from here on out.



The thing is, if I decide that I want to try to work things out - and that's a big IF - I think it would be more up to her to somehow (no idea how she would do this) convince me that she would not do it again. She is a very attractive woman and gets hit on all the time, so there's no stopping it if she doesn't decide to be faithful. I'm such an idiot for trusting her so much.


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## tacoma

the guy said:


> So now that you have revealed you source, whats your plan in gathering intell on her next move?
> 
> Is this an exit affair?
> 
> Again I'm coming in late.
> 
> Is there another thread that will get me caught up?


The OP came in and posted the cheaters script concerning his wife.

Everyone said she was cheating.

He displayed the most beta instincts I`ve ever seen

Then found a spine and checked his wife's e-mail where he discovered she`s in an A with her Ex Prof.

He then proceeded to destroy every advantage he had by again trusting her to know his sources and apparently asked no relevant questions of her.

Now he`s going to their counsellor with her to discuss her infidelity so the counsellor and his wife can team up to convince him this is somehow all his fault.

He`ll be living somewhere else in a week and divorced in three months if he continues with the beta program as he is.



Now you`re all caught up


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## SevenEight

the guy said:


> So now that you have revealed you source, whats your plan in gathering intell on her next move?
> 
> Is this an exit affair?
> 
> Again I'm coming in late.
> 
> Is there another thread that will get me caught up?


this is my only thread - just joined here for advice.

She said she is going to write out everything and we are going to have a long talk on Sunday. Also she said she is going to meet face to face with this POS and she would let me know what she decided after that.

I told her that if she wants to pursue this guy, just tell me and let's get it over with.


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## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> The OP came in and posted the cheaters script concerning his wife.
> 
> Everyone said she was cheating.
> 
> He displayed the most beta instincts I`ve ever seen
> 
> Then found a spine and checked his wife's e-mail where he discovered she`s in an A with her Ex Prof.
> 
> He then proceeded to destroy every advantage he had by again trusting her to know his sources and apparently asked no relevant questions of her.
> 
> Now he`s going to their counsellor with her to discuss her infidelity so the counsellor and his wife can team up to convince him this is somehow all his fault.
> 
> He`ll be living somewhere else in a week and divorced in three months if he continues with the beta program as he is.
> 
> 
> 
> Now you`re all caught up


ouch that's harsh. Yeah, I'm a fn idiot.

What do you advise at this point since you are so alpha?

Seriously, I am overwhelmed, deceived, pissed off, and trying to hold it together somehow.


----------



## SevenEight

heading out for a bit to workout. Can't take this right now.


----------



## the guy

SevenEight said:


> The thing is, if I decide that I want to try to work things out - and that's a big IF - I think it would be more up to her to somehow (no idea how she would do this) convince me that she would not do it again. She is a very attractive woman and gets hit on all the time, so there's no stopping it if she doesn't decide to be faithful. I'm such an idiot for trusting her so much.


We can never blame our self for trusting our spouses, thats how it should be!

We can blame our spouse for abusing our trust and having the moral compase that is not the norm.

See its all on her and it has *nothing* to do with you. Waywards make a choice and that choice is leave a unhealthy marriage they are not happy in or decieve us and lie their way thru life.

Bate, Alpha or anything in between doesn't make the deciet a wayward does make it justified. 

You may friend have nothing but integrity.....something your wife has none of.

The idiot here is your wife and the choices she made. You were just being a loyal spouse, something your were suppose to do....get it

THE IDIOT HERE IS THE ONE THE BROKE THE TRUST AND ABUSED THAT TRUST


----------



## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> ouch that's harsh. Yeah, I'm a fn idiot.
> 
> What do you advise at this point since you are so alpha?
> 
> Seriously, I am overwhelmed, deceived, pissed off, and trying to hold it together somehow.


The alpha/beta thing isn't BS, if you want your wife back the first thing you should do is show her nothing but a very alpha 180.

The beta in you is why she's e-mailing her old professor.
It`s a criticism, it's harsh, but it's the truth.

Can you tell from the e-mails how far she`s skipped down the path of infidelity?
Is it physical?

What has she had to say about it?
Have you asked her anything about it?

Start Googling the OM
If your a man of some means hire a PI to find out every damn thing about him.

I cannot stress this enough, it might pan out into nothing but if there is something you can use against him you can begin getting some control over your wife with that leverage.

Yes, I said "control" your wife because she`s out of control and if you still want her it's your job to get her back under control.

First thing tomorrow morning call a lawyer and have him write up divorce papers so they are ready to be served on your order.

It doesn't matter if you want divorce or not get the papers drafted now.
They are leverage, they are alpha.


----------



## the guy

@tacome, I couldn't have said it better!


----------



## the guy

In short your WW may have opend up the loins den. Show her a loin and show her how confident you really are and how you will never let her crap define you...ever again.


----------



## SevenEight

the guy said:


> We can never blame our self for trusting our spouses, thats how it should be!
> 
> We can blame our spouse for abusing our trust and having the moral compase that is not the norm.
> 
> See its all on her and it has *nothing* to do with you. Waywards make a choice and that choice is leave a unhealthy marriage they are not happy in or decieve us and lie their way thru life.
> 
> Bate, Alpha or anything in between doesn't make the deciet a wayward does make it justified.
> 
> You may friend have nothing but integrity.....something your wife has none of.
> 
> The idiot here is your wife and the choices she made. You were just being a loyal spouse, something your were suppose to do....get it
> 
> THE IDIOT HERE IS THE ONE THE BROKE THE TRUST AND ABUSED THAT TRUST


thanks I appreciate your post


----------



## anchorwatch

SevenEight said:


> She said she is going to write out everything and we are going to have a long talk on Sunday. *Also she said she is going to meet face to face with this POS and she would let me know what she decided after that.*
> 
> I told her that if she wants to pursue this guy, just tell me and let's get it over with.


If she goes to see him, that's her decision.


----------



## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> The alpha/beta thing isn't BS, if you want your wife back the first thing you should do is show her nothing but a very alpha 180.
> 
> The beta in you is why she's e-mailing her old professor.
> It`s a criticism, it's harsh, but it's the truth.
> 
> Can you tell from the e-mails how far she`s skipped down the path of infidelity?
> Is it physical?
> 
> What has she had to say about it?
> Have you asked her anything about it?
> 
> Start Googling the OM
> If your a man of some means hire a PI to find out every damn thing about him.
> 
> I cannot stress this enough, it might pan out into nothing but if there is something you can use against him you can begin getting some control over your wife with that leverage.
> 
> Yes, I said "control" your wife because she`s out of control and if you still want her it's your job to get her back under control.
> 
> First thing tomorrow morning call a lawyer and have him write up divorce papers so they are ready to be served on your order.
> 
> It doesn't matter if you want divorce or not get the papers drafted now.
> They are leverage, they are alpha.


Yes, they have had sex - twice I believe. Plus I have seen a bunch of emails where she - not he - was trying to convince him to have sex with her, with all sorts of kinky ideas and nothing but adoration for this POS. At first he seemed like he was against it because she's married, but eventually after she tried enough he gave in. I hate my life right now.

I'm not interested in "controlling" my wife, if you can still call her that right now. I would drive myself mad if I can't trust her. Every moment she's not around me she could be cheating if she really wanted to. It's up to both people to be committed to not cheating for it to work.


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> If she goes to see him, that's her decision.


You know what, you are right. I'm going to tell her this.


----------



## SevenEight

alright, heading out for real this time.

I will check back later, appreciate any responses.


----------



## anchorwatch

Keep the anger in you, but you need to be calm. Calm, but strong and resolved. One foot in front of the other, methodical in what you need to do.

I gave you things to read. Take your time and read them. Here, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html


----------



## tacoma

SevenEight said:


> Yes, they have had sex - twice I believe. Plus I have seen a bunch of emails where she - not he - was trying to convince him to have sex with her, with all sorts of kinky ideas and nothing but adoration for this POS. At first he seemed like he was against it because she's married, but eventually after she tried enough he gave in. I hate my life right now.
> 
> I'm not interested in "controlling" my wife, if you can still call her that right now. I would drive myself mad if I can't trust her. Every moment she's not around me she could be cheating if she really wanted to. It's up to both people to be committed to not cheating for it to work.



There's the anger.
Good, you`ll need that but keep it inside for just now.

The control I speak of isn`t "owning" your wife, it's taking control of her affair if you can right now.
Stopping it, ending it.

Take some time and try to clear your head and for right now concentrate on a very few things.

1: Divorce papers.
2:Figuring out if you want to go through the nightmare of saving your marriage.
3:Any spare time you have while figuring out what you want should be spent investigating the OM.


----------



## anchorwatch

tacoma is right. Lay two choices out for her, Divorce or Reconciliation on your terms. Don't live in limbo or an open marriage.

As for the OM, you say he's not in a relationship. You say he did not peruse her and was hesitant about her being married. Professor, academic type. IMO, I'd confront him. Sounds like he'd drop her if it's too much drama and effort with you in the way. Maybe exposure at his job too.


----------



## the guy

There a a ton of variables on how to approach this. 

The sooner she sees's a new 7-8 the sooner she will start to think twice. I'm just saying Mrs. 7-8 has a perception of her husband and that perception lacks respect, and one has eto command respect, they may not like it but they can respect it, cuz thats what they would do if the show was on the other foot.

In short your wife thinks you will knee to he whim, but she will respect the hell out of you when you don't and you show her that you will no longer tolorate her crap.

She's been dishing it out and before the new "devolopment" she been telling her self " I can't believe he wants me, what a sucker"...she needs to see this new 7-8 and even though she may not like it she will respect it.

I firmly believe there is a game changing additude that greatly effects the wayward....you will know when it happens, cuz the wayward doesn't like it one bit, anger, pissed off, and generaly unhappy that they can no longer have there cake and eat it to.


Sure this case is different when its an exit affair but the end game is the same.....JUST LET THEM GO!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in this case you are letting her go under your term.







Its hard man, but the best rewards are given by doing the hardest things in life.


----------



## SevenEight

thanks for all the advice people.

I called her earlier, and was pretty pissed and firm with her that her choice was to either

1. never see or contact any of those guys again, by sending them a letter explaining what a mistake it was and how much she hurt her husband and regrets it.

2. divorce/annullment or whatever we can do


She seemed upset, confused because I was no longer feeling weak, sounded like she was crying when she said bye.

I honestly am caring less and less as the day goes by, and it feels good. If she could somehow show all the elements of reconciliation shown in the link that anchorwatch posted (thanks btw - good info) then I might consider it, but it would definitely take a long time of healing. I'm not sure I could do it anyway. I think it would reduce my self-worth to allow someone to get away with that. I don't know yet.

I have a feeling she is not going to have the maturity level to own up to a huge mistake like this, and will somehow place the blame on my actions 6 months ago or whenever. I'm sure I made mistakes, but she should have sat and talked to me like an adult instead of holding grudges internally until the point of destroying the trust in our marriage by having an affair.


----------



## DavidWYoung

Stop sending her letters! STOP IT!

She does not love you. You are a pay check for her. She does not respect you in the least. She would do the Cable Guy in front of you just to get you to stop.

You can only affect your life, not her's. Stop all this "I love you BS" She does not love you at all. Sorry for the tough love but you need it.


----------



## SevenEight

DavidWYoung said:


> Stop sending her letters! STOP IT!
> 
> She does not love you. You are a pay check for her. She does not respect you in the least. She would do the Cable Guy in front of you just to get you to stop.
> 
> You can only affect your life, not her's. Stop all this "I love you BS" She does not love you at all. Sorry for the tough love but you need it.


I'm not sending her letters anymore. My mind feels so fd right now.


How do I make myself let go? I keep trying to figure that out, and at moments I have enough anger to feel ok, but that doesn't last and that's no way to live. I don't wish to become and angry hard hearted individual.


She cut off ties with the OM and the other ones that she was sending pics to. She has been constantly letting me look on her phone and in her email to reassure me that she really did cut ties.

I told her she needs to get a new phone number and she said she is going to.

She is looking for a new place to stay, at least for a little while so we can both figure out our minds and our sanity.

I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive, but I really hope so. I don't know if I will ever trust again.

She has had many mental illness diagnoses before and regardless of what happens with us I know that she needs help. I've been far from perfect in our relationship but I would never do what she did. I don't want to start over.

I'm 34 and have been in two other long relationships, and many shorter ones. She was the only one that I "knew" in my mind and heart that I could fully trust. My judgment really sucks.


----------



## SevenEight

She said she has had this same pattern in relationships for 20 years, and that she feels relieved to have cut ties because of how bad she would have gotten. Is it possible for people to stop patterns like this?

Anybody have any insight on this?


----------



## anchorwatch

It's only posible with profesional help. 

There are members here that may be of help.

What's has she benn diagnosed with?


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> It's only posible with profesional help.
> 
> There are members here that may be of help.
> 
> What's has she benn diagnosed with?



Bipolar, depression, borderline personality disorder are the ones that come to mind. To be honest I'm not 100% sure if I'm forgetting any, because I never viewed her based on labels like those. I always wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I think in my mind I may have had some denial about it. 

I also have always thought though that people are too quick to label, and that most of these disorders are characteristics that we all have, but just not to an extreme degree. Psychology is forced to make a black and white interpretation of something that is really shades of gray to me. I don't want to try to analyze her. 

I'm sure I have my own issues too, as do most people.


----------



## anchorwatch

I will PM another member to help.

Let me give you some lay advice about what you have described. It will take professional help on her part, strong boundaries with clear consequences on your part. I'll let the others fill you in.


----------



## caladan

I'm curious - do you want her back?

I still feel she knows you don't want to leave and she's still playing to the gallery.

I would have played this otherwise - I would never have put the reconciliation on the table, she needs to want that ON HER OWN.

But what's done is done. So again I ask - do you want her back? Why??


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> I will PM another member to help.
> 
> Let me give you some lay advice about what you have described. It will take professional help on her part, strong boundaries with clear consequences on your part. I'll let the others fill you in.


thanks. I need help.


----------



## SevenEight

caladan said:


> I'm curious - do you want her back?
> 
> I still feel she knows you don't want to leave and she's still playing to the gallery.
> 
> I would have played this otherwise - I would never have put the reconciliation on the table, she needs to want that ON HER OWN.
> 
> But what's done is done. So again I ask - do you want her back? Why??



I loved her deeply and way beyond anyone else I've ever been with. She is the only one that I've ever fully trusted, knew that I could count on.

That part of me desperately still wants her back, yes. For a long time we both acted madly in love with each other. We had ups and downs at times like any couple, and growing pains, learning more about each other, but when it was good it was what I have always wanted in a woman. She has all the qualities that I wanted, until recently. Was I just deceived, and she is not really the person I thought she was? Or is she just severely mentally ill and not capable of being a stable, good wife all the time?

Yesterday when we talked she was actually worried that I was going to do something to ruin the OM's career, since he is in the field of psychology and what he has done could be viewed as unethical. How can she worry about him? He knew she was married.

But I know I don't want to live with hate. I believe that forgiveness is ultimately the best, but not at the expense of my self worth.

I'm so confused.

What do you mean "playing to the gallery"? I wish I was stronger at the moment to just kick her out. But I also love my step daughter, and I don't want to hurt her in any way.


----------



## caladan

SevenEight said:


> I loved her deeply and way beyond anyone else I've ever been with. She is the only one that I've ever fully trusted, knew that I could count on.
> 
> That part of me desperately still wants her back, yes. For a long time we both acted madly in love with each other. We had ups and downs at times like any couple, and growing pains, learning more about each other, but when it was good it was what I have always wanted in a woman. She has all the qualities that I wanted, until recently. Was I just deceived, and she is not really the person I thought she was? Or is she just severely mentally ill and not capable of being a stable, good wife all the time?
> 
> Yesterday when we talked she was actually worried that I was going to do something to ruin the OM's career, since he is in the field of psychology and what he has done could be viewed as unethical. How can she worry about him? He knew she was married.
> 
> But I know I don't want to live with hate. I believe that forgiveness is ultimately the best, but not at the expense of my self worth.
> 
> I'm so confused.
> 
> What do you mean "playing to the gallery"? I wish I was stronger at the moment to just kick her out. But I also love my step daughter, and I don't want to hurt her in any way.


Well, one can never really know. When we love, we love hard, and we can be vulnerable in that situation. 

Playing to the gallery - she knows the guy has nothing to offer her. You on the other hand probably do. You're the safe bet that she can depend on while taking her risks and getting her rush (YO - remember to get tested).

I simply don't feel convinced that she's truly apologetic (and before you try to convince me that she is, I'm almost certain you won't be able to tell whether she is or not - you're panting for a past "her" that made you feel awesome). I dunno - I can't confirm anything, I know neither you nor her, but I feel you're letting her get away too easily.

Even worse, I'm not convinced you've dealt with whatever it is about you makes you feel so needy that you would take her back regardless of what she did to you, so there's a chance this is going to repeat itself.

Again, I have no proof, just a hunch.


----------



## SevenEight

caladan said:


> Well, one can never really know. When we love, we love hard, and we can be vulnerable in that situation.
> 
> Playing to the gallery - she knows the guy has nothing to offer her. You on the other hand probably do. You're the safe bet that she can depend on while taking her risks and getting her rush (YO - remember to get tested).
> 
> I simply don't feel convinced that she's truly apologetic (and before you try to convince me that she is, I'm almost certain you won't be able to tell whether she is or not - you're panting for a past "her" that made you feel awesome). I dunno - I can't confirm anything, I know neither you nor her, but I feel you're letting her get away too easily.
> 
> Even worse, I'm not convinced you've dealt with whatever it is about you makes you feel so needy that you would take her back regardless of what she did to you, so there's a chance this is going to repeat itself.
> 
> Again, I have no proof, just a hunch.


get tested... man that sucks to hear. I know it's necessary though.

I think you are right about not being sure if she is truly apologetic. I get mixed feelings (although I acknowledge that my entire being is having mixed emotions lately, so I question my own judgment and thoughts).

I'm sure part of me wants so desperately to have what I thought we had that I don't want to damage it further. But I guess the damage is done - by her - and I have to make myself move on somehow. I know but don't want to believe that it's up to her to prove that she is the woman I thought she was. The hard part is that it may never happen.

I have a lot of self respect and self worth even though I am in a time of extreme weakness right now. I'm sure some don't believe that I'm truly self respecting from reading this. I know that if anyone else was telling me the story that I'm telling here I wouldn't hesitate to tell them to get out immediately.

But in a true loving marriage, is it never ok to let yourself need the other person's love, and to count on it being there for the rest of your lives? It sure feels like this is my lesson from this.


----------



## anchorwatch

If she is as you describe, a relationship with her will not be for the faint of heart. #1 will be assessment and continued treatment by a qualified professional. 

You can't waffle about at allowing bad behavior with out any consequences. If you worry about hurting her or making her angry by enforcing your personal boundaries, you will fail. 

I'm not saying you have to be a prison guard. I'm saying you need to be resolved that you can't control her, you can only control what you will accept in a relationship. Then she will have to chose if that's what she wants. 

This would be true even if she does not have what you describe. As you found out with the infidelity. Until you recently gave her a clear understanding of what your boundaries were and what the consequences would be, she was attempting to play you and the other men. 

Read Uptown's post in this thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showth...discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522




Here's other reads for you, the title is self explanatory. 

No More Mr. Nice Guy

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> If she is as you describe, a relationship with her will not be for the faint of heart. #1 will be assessment and continued treatment by a qualified professional.
> 
> You can't waffle about at allowing bad behavior with out any consequences. If you worry about hurting her or making her angry by enforcing your personal boundaries, you will fail.
> 
> I'm not saying you have to be a prison guard. I'm saying you need to be resolved that you can't control her, you can only control what you will accept in a relationship. Then she will have to chose if that's what she wants.
> 
> This would be true even if she does not have what you describe. As you found out with the infidelity. Until you recently gave her a clear understanding of what your boundaries were and what the consequences would be, she was attempting to play you and the other men.
> 
> Read Uptown's post in this thread.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showth...discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522
> 
> 
> Here's other reads for you, the title is self explanatory.
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy
> 
> https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf



Thanks, that is helpful. I don't think she is nearly as bad as what is described in Uptown's post, but I definitely see many partial or occasional traits in her that are described by uptown. She has never been verbally abusive or had many temper tantrums directed at me - but I do see inappropriate anger at other family members, and her own daughter sometimes. Our sex life was always beyond incredible, and we have both spoken about it many times as to how surprised we were that we were still so physically and emotionally attracted to each other after 5 years. It has only been in the last few months that things spiralled down, which led to my realization that something was wrong, then confronting her about it, and then this thread got started and my life has been flipped upside down.

She has always been extremely caring - a true caregiver and affectionate. I have always deeply loved it and appreciated it, and was happy to give back as much as I could. I know I did not always match her level of caregiving, but it was not for lack of love or desire to give back. I think that over time I did become dependent and needy of this, but I felt like that was the right way for two people to love each other, if they both feel the same way about it. I deliberately let myself trust that I would always have it.

Also she was not switching back and forth between love and hate as was described in uptown's post. Sure, we had some conflicts but I didn't see them as that severe. I think I let myself become needy because I loved her caregiving and affection so much. 

I am realizing more and more that we do need to separate and figure ourselves out. We already agreed to seek professional help, both individually and as a couple. I truly don't know if I can trust her ever again, but I really hope that I can. I'm afraid that if I truly move on, that I won't be able to ever let her have the power to hurt me again, that I won't be able to let myself be vulnerable with her again. I guess it's hard life lesson.

I need to figure out how to move on. It's such a tremendous battle between heart and mind right now.

I really appreciate the link to the mr nice guy info. I don't think that is who I am most of the time, but I do open myself to be vulnerable with those I love and trust (very few people). I feel like I just made a very poor judgment choice in letting her have this power. I know it's a moment in my life of weakness and being low, but it's not who I am deep down.


----------



## SevenEight

Well, I have a meeting with an employee assistance program guy at my work here in a few minutes. I hope he can provide some guidance and help.


----------



## anchorwatch

I understand. There are degrees, not every thing is so black and white.

Professional help is wise. 

Then let me leave you with two books that may help you see what a marriage looks like (even after the glow wears off), how to keep it and how to heal and regain trust from infidelity.

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harleys

Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley

I wish you well.


----------



## terrence4159

my advice (been there divorced 8 years ago) run man, right now you are plan B plain and simple. she is sorry right now..sorry she got caught. you are her security blanket until the OM commits to her then shes gone. sorry to be blunt. she now knows how she got caught and will take it underground and will be ten times hared to catch her again.


----------



## SevenEight

terrence4159 said:


> my advice (been there divorced 8 years ago) run man, right now you are plan B plain and simple. she is sorry right now..sorry she got caught. you are her security blanket until the OM commits to her then shes gone. sorry to be blunt. she now knows how she got caught and will take it underground and will be ten times hared to catch her again.


Trust me, this is one of my biggest worries if we do work things out and I am able to forgive. 

Don't you think there is some possibility of improvement and healing? The affair was 100% her bad decision and I'm in no way one of those people who blames myself for it, but I do realize that I could have done a lot better in some areas before that. I'm still hopeful that there is some way for us to both improve because we did have something special, at least for a few years.


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> I understand. There are degrees, not every thing is so black and white.
> 
> Professional help is wise.
> 
> Then let me leave you with two books that may help you see what a marriage looks like (even after the glow wears off), how to keep it and how to heal and regain trust from infidelity.
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harleys
> 
> Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley
> 
> I wish you well.



Thanks again. I'm just trying to figure myself out at the moment, and I feel like I'm going back and forth sometimes several times in one hour.

I'm definitely going to get some help.

Hopefully she does too. She seems willing to do that.


At least for my step daughter's sake hopefully she won't have a mom that puts forth such a bad example in the future, regardless of what happens with us.


----------



## SevenEight

Well, I got some help from our EAP person here, who is a psychologist, and it was good to speak with him for an hour. 

I got some phone numbers of therapists and have already left some voice mails to get appointments set up.


----------



## Uptown

7-8, at Anchor's suggestion, I read your entire thread in hopes I might be able to contribute something useful. As explained below, my primary concern is that you find out whether a psychologist actually diagnosed your W as having bipolar disorder or BPD. 

Those two disorders are often confused by laymen and the distinction is extremely important. Whereas bipolar usually is successfully treated by swallowing a pill, BPD is notoriously difficult to treat. In the very unlikely event that a BPDer will stay in therapy, it typically takes several years of weekly therapy to make a substantial difference in behavior.


SevenEight said:


> Bipolar, depression, borderline personality disorder are the ones that come to mind. To be honest I'm not 100% sure if I'm forgetting any.


7-8, if you are considering staying married to her, it is important you find out whether she actually was diagnosed with having BPD. As I discuss below, you are not describing BPD traits so I suspect she may mistakenly think that the term "BPD" stands for bipolar. 

As to her "bipolar diagnosis," it is important to find out if it is bipolar-1 or bipolar-2 because the former is much more difficult to live with. Whereas a bipolar-2 sufferer will alternate between normal behavior and depressed behavior, a bipolar-1 sufferer will shift between depression (at one end of the spectrum) and mania (at the other end). Moreover, about half of bipolar-1 sufferers also have full-blown BPD.

Of course, it is possible your W has both bipolar-1 and BPD. I don't know. I've never met the lady and I am not a psychologist. What I can say, however, is that you have NOT been describing the traits of either of those disorders in this thread. If you are interested in being able to spot the red flags, I identify 12 differences between bipolar-1 and BPD traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiety-depression-relationships/59344-confused.html#post1175425.


> I never viewed her based on labels like those.


Such labels can be enormously useful because, in the world of Google and Bing, these labels can unlock a world of helpful information that otherwise remains hidden and out of reach. Yet, based on your description, I remain skeptical that the bipolar and BPD labels apply. It therefore is important that you find out what her "diagnosis" actually was and whether it was rendered by a psychologist.


> I also have always thought though that people are too quick to label, and that most of these disorders are characteristics that we all have, but just not to an extreme degree.


Yes, bipolar and BPD are both considered to be "spectrum disorders," which means we all have the traits to some degree. The traits become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent that they undermine one's ability to sustain close LTRs or to function in society.


> Psychology is forced to make a black and white interpretation of something that is really shades of gray to me.


You are very perceptive to realize that psychologists have been cramming a grey world into black and white boxes -- for over 30 years. With a BPD diagnosis, for example, the diagnosis is intended to appease insurance companies, not to help you. Even when your spouse's BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic threshold, they can be strong enough to make you miserable and completely undermine your marriage. Hence, being told by a psychiatrist that your spouse "does not have BPD" does NOT mean you are safe. It does NOT mean she doesn't have strong BPD traits.

This is so because, like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder" as I noted above. This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD.

This "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease." In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (aka a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental disorders.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released this May, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.


> I don't want to try to analyze her.


Sure you do. That's one of the things you've been trying to do since starting this thread. What you likely mean to say, I believe, is that you don't want to try "to _diagnose_ her." Only professionals can render a diagnosis. 

This is not to say, however, that you cannot spot the red flags for bipolar and BPD if you take time to learn what to look for. There is a world of difference between making a diagnosis and spotting the warning signs. There is nothing subtle about traits such as emotional instability, verbal abuse, and inability to trust.


> I don't think she is nearly as bad as what is described in Uptown's post.


I agree. The hallmark of both BPD and bipolar disorder is emotional instability. Significantly, you are NOT describing a woman who is unstable. 

If she had strong BPD traits, for example, she would be seen flipping back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you. You describe the opposite, however. Specifically, you say "she was not switching back and forth between love and hate as was described in uptown's post."

With respect to bipolar, the instability would be evident in moods that swing back and forth between depression and normality (as in bipolar-2) or between depression and mania (as in bipolar-1). You do not describe either of those situations.

Moreover, even if such emotional instability had been observed for a few months, it would have to be persistent over many years for a pattern of BPD or bipolar to be present. You do not describe that. On the contrary, you say, "It has only been in the last few months that things spiraled down, which led to my realization that something was wrong."


> I know I don't want to live with hate. I believe that forgiveness is ultimately the best.


That is good advice for the long term. For the short term, however, it can be terrible advice for excessive caregivers like you and me. For us, the notion of walking away from a hurting loved one is anathema. 

Hence, our best chance -- indeed, perhaps our ONLY chance -- of walking away is reliant on our ability to hold on to our righteous anger for six months to a year -- long enough for us to safely remove ourselves from a toxic relationship. This means that, if you ever decide to leave her, it is very important that you hold on to your anger and keep nursing it -- until you are safely away.


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## SevenEight

Uptown, you are awesome for trying to help so much, as are the others on here contributing. Anchor, thank you for asking Uptown to offer help here.

It really is seeming like a divorce is coming my way no matter how much I am trying to fix things. This is the hardest thing I have ever had to survive. Yesterday she began filling out divorce forms online as we talked.

You are right that she was never diagnosed with bpd, but I know she has discussed it before. Last night and this morning we talked more, and I found out for sure that her diagnoses were bipolar disorder, major depressive, post traumatic stress disorder, and anxiety disorder. I feel like a fool for not knowing these about my wife, but I guess it was my attempt to deny, or at least not try to treat her according to labels that I didn't want to agree with. I thought that if I treated her like a normal person as much as possible, it would help, but that was obviously a mistake I made.

I also found out last night that she did not in fact end contact with the AP, which was really horrible to hear. She did give me access to her email accounts, but she's still texting and calling him. She seemed so contraditory to what she would say, it was close to impossible to have a discussion that made any sense. She told me she still loves me more than just friends, but at the same time when I asked her if she would go to the AP if he wanted to commit to her, she said she didn't know. Then in the next sentence she would say that she doesn't want a relationship with him, the AP. She said she respected me. I told her her actions recently didn't match that statement, and I can't lower my self respect enough to ignore her actions. I told her that she didn't seem to show true remorse for her actions - that it seemed like she's just feeling bad that she got caught, and maybe guilty on some level for the obvious intense pain she caused me. I asked her how she would feel if her brother's wife did that to her brother, and at least she did acknowledge that he would be crushed. It's so hard to realize that I can't make her feel remorse, as much as I'd like to.

She's still wanting to go to therapy, and I'm waiting to hear back from two therapists to set up appointments. I also gave her the phone numbers of the 5 therapists that I was given recommendations to, and suggested that she set up her own appointments while she's still under my work insurance. This morning I got an email from her saying that she's too busy to do it today, but will do it tomorrow. Again, I feel no sense of urgency from her in fixing herself, fixing us. I'm so depressed about it. She also said she might sleep in a hotel tonight so she can get good rest. I don't know whether to believe her or think she's going to invite the AP over there. He is such a low life for doing this to a marriage.

I honestly don't know if therapy is going to help. I really hope so. I think I will need it regardless. I know I had some shortcomings in our relationship, and large parts of our initial downfall was my fault. The affair was not my fault though, and she seems incapable of showing remorse for her actions towards me. She should have served me papers when she felt it was over before, instead of doing this to us. There were a few times in the past when we were having arguments that she did ask me if I just wanted to end it now, and I didn't take it seriously enough. In my mind we were both committed to living together for the rest of our lives, and never thought that in less than a year that she would be serious about giving up already. This became a huge source of resentment for her, that I didn't take her seriously. In my defense the times she said this, it was said after drinks, in the heat of the moment, so I didn't think she really meant it. I even told her later that I didn't believe her. She should have just showed me divorce papers back then to prove me wrong. I would have deserved it back then.

She still is saying that maybe someday we will get re-married and do things right. I don't know whether to laugh at her or cry at how cold she seems saying some of these things. I feel like she's showing me some level of love which is just making it harder for me, but it feels like she really means it, but I also don't know if I can believe a single word out of her mouth lately. I'm so mixed up and fd with mentally right now. Yesterday she put her rings in her hand and asked if I wanted them, so I took them and put them away. This morning we talked and I asked her if she wanted them back (probably stupid to do that), she shook her head yes, cried a little, so I gave them back. Go ahead and tell me what an idiot I am for doing that. I can't help it. At least I did exercise last night. That helped.

Uptown, thanks for your advice about keeping my anger for a while. On some level I know this, but my mind is so desperate and unstable at the moment that it's hard to follow any plan.

I also sent her an email asking her what her bipolar disorder diagnosis type was. I do know for sure that it was from a psychologist.

One more thing - I know there were many mornings when I would wake up, head to work, and find out that she was desperately depressed, had spent much of the day crying, etc. I felt horrible for her but didn't know what to do. Occasionally she did seem manic as well, having wild emotional swings. This was amplified when we drank together. She also had a history of drug addiction, and was in in-patient treatment for 7 months for it a few years before I met her. Yeah, I realize it's a huge detail that I haven't spoken about. I'm sure I look like an incredible fool for looking past all that and thinking I had what I thought I had.


----------



## SevenEight

I received an answer about her diagnoses and was told that she has been diagnosed professionally with

Bipolar disorder diagnosis II to NOS.
PTSD (from past trauma and abuse)
Depersonalization disorder (DPD)
Anxiety with Panic disorder/agoraphobia
Insomnia
Depression


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## SevenEight

She is all over the place. Sent me the email below earlier today. But at the same time she still shows very little remorse and still going through processing divorce paperwork. Looks like this one is decided for me.

I'm working on exposure now. Figuring out who to send to at the moment, thinking about how to word it. I had made the mistake of threatening her with this, and now she claims to have already confessed to her mother. But, even if true, I'm sure her mother did not hear the full story, which I will be sure to tell.

I want others to know who she is so they can help her, mainly for her daughter's sake (my step-daughter). She is 7 and is completely innocent. I read some things that really bothered me, about how children at that age aren't capable of seeing the world in any other way other than as them being the center of it, so they tend to blame themselves for traumatic events. I know she loves me as I do her (step-daughter), so if anything I want friends and family to help my stbxw be a better role model and mother.


Here is the email I received today:

I took out all the blame and depression.... 
inititiating sabotage... unto.. 
the unstability that I see in others.. 
I learned how to jack people around.. 
when I am hurting most of all..
I try to or surround myself with folks
that "feel" safe and accept most parts of 
me (crazy or not)... 
I think I tried to relate to similar feelings in
other people and had to twist it.. 
to make it "feel" like I was in charge of the 
circmustance. 
Had to justify how to hurt the ones that I had 
failed 9 EMOTIONALLY BROKEN).. 
and MYSELF conviced OF false expectations for. 
*WHAT A BUMMER*


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## anchorwatch

7-8, 

She's got problems. She's not ready for a lifetime relationship with someone. She needs to fix herself or she'll just self destruct any relationship she's in. She's going to leave a wake of emotional destruction on every relationship she goes through. At her age it will take along time to fix herself and there is a chance it may never happen. 

I can't tell you what to do, but I would consider my self lucky that I'm still young and had no children by her. I do understand why you feel the way you do, but you can't fix her. Only she can fix her. 

Boundaries and Consequences, it's the only way. You know what her consequence should be, or she'll continue to screw you up at every turn. It's up to you. I wouldn't wait around for her to need a back up guy. 

Here there were some letters in the CWI Newbie post and here are more

Exposure 101 - 

Watch your health and make sure you eat. Exercise and ask the MD if you need something to take the emotional stress off. 

This may help you detach your emotions. 
180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


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## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> 7-8,
> 
> She's got problems. She's not ready for a lifetime relationship with someone. She needs to fix herself or she'll just self destruct any relationship she's in. She's going to leave a wake of emotional destruction on every relationship she goes through. At her age it will take along time to fix herself and there is a chance it may never happen.
> 
> I can't tell you what to do, but I would consider my self lucky that I'm still young and had no children by her. I do understand why you fell the way you do, but you can't fix her. Only she can fix her.
> 
> Boundaries and Consequences, it's the only way. You know what her consequence should be, or she'll continue to screw you up at every turn. It's up to you. I wouldn't wait around for her to need a back up guy.
> 
> Here there were some letters in the CWI Newbie post and here are more
> 
> Exposure 101 -
> 
> Watch your health and make sure you eat. Exercise and ask the MD if you need something to take the emotional stress off.
> 
> This may help you detach your emotions.
> 180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


Anchorwatch, I am realizing this more and more (that she has serious issues beyond my control) but I still am clinging to some hope. I'm taking the necessary steps at the moment to work on myself, and to figure out how to detach. I'm so desperate at times that my own fd up mind actually wishes we had a child to keep us together - but I know that is just my desperate emotional attachment taking over. I know I'm really fortunate that we don't have kids, and that I will really be glad when I'm emotionally farther from this horrible ordeal. 

I told her repeatedly that the only way we will begin to attempt to heal is if she cuts off contact with the AP, but she has already claimed to do that and then I found out she was still in contact. I can't believe a single word out of her mouth now.

She said initially that she couldn't send a letter because she didn't have his address, and that she called him. She is such a fn liar, and so good at it. It's easy for her to lie to me because she had my trust so completely.

I read something on this forum that helped, that said to imagine yourself betraying the one you love most like she did, and then imagine how much of a POS you would feel to do that. Then you realize that you should pity someone who has that capability in them.

She needs help, and it hurts to know that she is probably just going to be with this new guy, and they are going to have an incredible time while I am suffering.

I already got some meds to help relax as needed. I have only taken them 3 times in the past week. I prefer to stay away from meds when possible.

I am trying to keep myself occupied, working out, doing hobbies, reaching out to people. Just typing on this forum has been immensely helpful to my state of mind lately, even if just for minutes at a time.

This forum has been saving my sanity at times in the last week, and I sincerely am grateful for all the advice and comments, good or bad.


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## anchorwatch

You have all the information and tools you need. Now it's just time to decide. 

I think you know the answer is to stand up for yourself and not tolerate this behavior from her or any of her APs and enablers. That will at least leave you with self respect. 

In the end you will question your part in this, but when you look at your self in the mirror you will know that you didn't do this.


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## tom67

Out the om also he's married right?


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## Uptown

> Occasionally she did seem manic as well, having wild emotional swings.... and was in in-patient treatment for 7 months for it .... Yeah, I realize it's a huge detail that I haven't spoken about.... was told that she has been diagnosed professionally with Bipolar II and Depersonalization disorder (DPD)


Yes, 7-8, those are HUGE details that you did not mention earlier. What you are now describing is a very unstable woman who likely has been that way since she was a child. Significantly, DPD is a subset (and milder form) of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, aka "Multiple Personality Disorder"). 

Because DPD is one of the traits of BPD (i.e., due to the BPDer's fragile sense of identity), your W may exhibit other strong BPD traits as well. Yet, because you've not mentioned anything about temper tantrums and verbal abuse, she likely would be a "quiet BPDer" if she has any other strong BPD traits. 

I therefore suggest you look at therapist Shari Schreiber's description of what she calls "waifs" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. I am interested in knowing whether that description is any closer to your W's behavior than the description I provided in my post in Maybe's thread.


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## tacoma

Out the OM, have her served, GTFO.

She's done.


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## Jasel

Run to the nearest divorce lawyer. ****ing run.


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## SevenEight

tom67 said:


> Out the om also he's married right?


I honestly don't know. I am working on finding that out and should know soon.


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## SevenEight

tacoma said:


> Out the OM, have her served, GTFO.
> 
> She's done.


I completely understand this viewpoint. If not for my step-daughter, whom I've watched grow and love very much (currently age 7, I knew her since age 2) I would have kicked my wife out by now. Actually she has told me that she would have left before if not for her daughter.

Interestingly, there was a time over a year ago that my wife was seriously contemplating sending her daughter to live with the biological father (who is another pos), but I helped convince her that it would be a huge regret later in life.


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## tom67

SevenEight said:


> I honestly don't know. I am working on finding that out and should know soon.


Good expose that sob!


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## SevenEight

Uptown said:


> Yes, 7-8, those are HUGE details that you did not mention earlier. What you are now describing is a very unstable woman who likely has been that way since she was a child. Significantly, DPD is a subset (and milder form) of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, aka "Multiple Personality Disorder").
> 
> Because DPD is one of the traits of BPD (i.e., due to the BPDer's fragile sense of identity), your W may exhibit other strong BPD traits as well. Yet, because you've not mentioned anything about temper tantrums and verbal abuse, she likely would be a "quiet BPDer" if she has any other strong BPD traits.
> 
> I therefore suggest you look at therapist Shari Schreiber's description of what she calls "waifs" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. I am interested in knowing whether that description is any closer to your W's behavior than the description I provided in my post in Maybe's thread.


Uptown, your knowledge is impressive and very appreciated.

I will read what's in the link you provided and will respond.

I am currently at work and need to get some things done.


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## terrence4159

Im sorry for what you are going through really i am, my XW cheated on me over 9 years ago when we had a 6 month old son (dna hes mine) its had seven im not going to lie, its going to be a roller coaster it is. you have to be willing to lose it all to save it.

right now you are her security blanket the only way (my .02 cents) to possibly save the marriage is serve her with D papers, you can always stop the D at anytime and this may be the shock she needs to wake up and is she doesnt then RUN


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## SevenEight

terrence4159 said:


> Im sorry for what you are going through really i am, my XW cheated on me over 9 years ago when we had a 6 month old son (dna hes mine) its had seven im not going to lie, its going to be a roller coaster it is. you have to be willing to lose it all to save it.
> 
> right now you are her security blanket the only way (my .02 cents) to possibly save the marriage is serve her with D papers, you can always stop the D at anytime and this may be the shock she needs to wake up and is she doesnt then RUN


I'm definitely living the roller coaster right now. Some moments I know it needs to end, other moments I want to make it work somehow. At least we have appointments lined up next week and the following week with a therapist (individually).

I realize I may just be a security blanket.

Today she said she texted him and told him never to contact her again, but when I asked to see the text, she said she already deleted everything out of her phone. I told her how can she not realize that I need proof because I can't trust her words at the moment.

I asked her if she is willing to get rid of that phone (which is actually on her mother's family plan), and have me get her a prepaid one somewhere on my account so I can have records of text numbers and phone calls. She seemed to understand this, and said she was fine with this. She has also shared her passwords to her two email accounts and linkedin, which I verified worked. So at least it's a small step in the right direction, but I'm still trying to figure myself out. Definitely a roller coaster.

Either way she is still going to move out, which I know is a good thing, but will be difficult. She also seems to want a divorce more than I do, which sucks. On the other hand, I know I should be welcoming a divorce considering what kind of person she has shown herself capable of being. I just keep thinking to how good things were with us for years, despite ups and downs. Maybe those years really weren't as good as I remember, and I was just emotionally attached. Like I said, I'm trying to figure myself out and I hope counseling/therapy helps me. I feel bipolar lately. Lately I have had a lot more anger which has helped my state of mind.


----------



## SevenEight

Uptown said:


> Yes, 7-8, those are HUGE details that you did not mention earlier. What you are now describing is a very unstable woman who likely has been that way since she was a child. Significantly, DPD is a subset (and milder form) of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, aka "Multiple Personality Disorder").
> 
> Because DPD is one of the traits of BPD (i.e., due to the BPDer's fragile sense of identity), your W may exhibit other strong BPD traits as well. Yet, because you've not mentioned anything about temper tantrums and verbal abuse, she likely would be a "quiet BPDer" if she has any other strong BPD traits.
> 
> I therefore suggest you look at therapist Shari Schreiber's description of what she calls "waifs" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. I am interested in knowing whether that description is any closer to your W's behavior than the description I provided in my post in Maybe's thread.


Wow, there is a lot of information there. There were some parts that definitely matched what I experienced with her, and others that I think are pretty far off from her.

1. She does tend to be somewhat of a hypochondriac at times, but I think she genuinely wants to better herself. We both work out regularly at a fitness club. One example of her trying to better herself was shortly after her miscarriage she came up with a diet to follow that was very healthy (lots of fruits, natural things). Unfortunately she never followed through though, but I know she definitely had the intent to.

2. I do want to make her feel better all the time when I see her in pain, but I don't feel like this is a necessity for me, it's just that I've seen and grown to love her "good" side. I take plenty of care of myself (work out, hobbies, friends, alone time is necessary for me regularly). In fact I think my needing more alone time than what she wanted was a source of difficulty for her a lot of times.

3. This part of the article struck home with me:

her limited common sense, her inability to comprehend adult reason, her lack of impulse control

I did feel this from her many times, and I think this led to me trying to reason, failing to get my point accross, making her upset and feeling inferior and disrespected by me, which then led to less and less productive communication about problems. I think in between ups and downs we continued with this broken communication pattern until recent events happened and now it's all blowing up.

One positive is that we are at least on the same page now about lack of communication severely hurting us before.


4. I don't agree with the part that mentions that I was dependent on her happiness for myself to be happy. I have certainly worried a lot about her depression and anxiety, and have felt empathy for her, but it did not stop me from living my life. I tried to comfort and offer advice like I thought I would want if it was me going through the pain I saw in her. After the fact I think she would have benefited more from just holding her, offering support, and letting her figure herself out through therapy or whatever other avenues were available.

5. She really didn't have many rage moments against me. I did see perhaps some rage in the emails I read where she complained about me to others, but not usually at me. If anything, she was overly submissive to me in day to day, and then later seemed to hold it against me because she was changing her self for me (said she was losing her identity).

Overall, I see a few characteristics about waifs that fit, but I don't feel that it is a good overall picture.

It seems like she has a combination of many things, I (maybe unfortunately, I'm not sure yet) still see a lot of good in her.

The thing I'm 100% sure of right now is that we can both use some professional help to figure things out.


----------



## SevenEight

I'm certain this is over now.

Last week on Thursday I had discovered that she had contacted the OM. Also, since she had given me the passwords to her three email accounts as well as linkedin, I discovered that she had created another new email account that was intended to keep hidden from me.

She still never admitted to a single thing until I told her I already knew. At that point I was ready to be done with it. I left to cancel our joint fitness club membership (just to drop her, not me) and while I was gone I received call after call which I did not answer. She then sent me a text saying things like "I'm a horrible person... you are the only one who ever tried to help me..." and so forth. When I came back she was crying, sobbing, for the first time since this whole mess she really seemed to show some remorse or sadness about it.
I really believed that she was genuinely wanting to fix things. We spent the time between then and today working on ourselves (or so I thought). We had our first counseling appt yesterday.

At the appointment, I felt that we were both sincere and we both liked the counselor. The counselor felt that she needed to get on meds as soon as possible - that she was all over the place.

Then today, I decided to check her accounts because I was feeling really insecure and paranoid. I hated feeling the need to do this. I knew that she would find a way to keep secrets if she really wanted to.

In her linkedin, I find a message she had sent earlier today, about 1/2 hour after I left for work. It was to one of the guys she had sent texts of herself to before (not the one she was actually ****ing, as far as I know, but I have no idea what actually happened behind my back). Her message was along the lines of "please send me your number via text quickly so I can write it down, and don't send me any more messages". She deleted her sent message, and then deleted it from the trash as well (trying to hide it). I only knew because the guy responded back to her, and I saw his response with her original email.

I called her and told her it's over. Told her what I knew, started filling out divorce paperwork. What a ****ing dishonest human being she is. She actually still had the audacity to tell me that she only wanted to get a professional contact from this guy, that it wasn't the way I saw it. Wtf.

I really thought we still had a chance.

I can't ever believe a word from her lying mouth anymore. 

I am such a fool for falling for a person like this. She is not who I thought she was.

Going to contact a divorce lawyer asap to make sure I don't get ****ed over. I have plenty of evidence of her infidelity.

**** this sucks.

Not even one year married. I was committed to her for the rest of my life.


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## anchorwatch

Sorry, 7 8. 

Now you can walk away with the knowledge you tried. 

Now you know you can want someone to change, but you can't do it for them. Only they can. 

You're coming to grips with the realization that she is not who you thought she is. 

Wish you well and a quick break from this person who was never on the same path as you.


----------



## the guy

Hang in there man, get the divorce ASAP and talk to you step daughter and be honest, she is seven she will understand that mommy can not have a boy friend and have a husband at the same time and you have to let her mother go with her boyfriend. Reassure her that you still want her in your life and look forward to watching her growing up and being there for her. Let her know that even though you are letting her mother go you will not let her go.

Its hard and your STBXW will give you crap for it but this kid needs...diserves to understand why you are no longer going to be around as much. you have been around for most of her young life, she needs a good father figure in her life...at the very least a big brother as thing evolve as she grows up and man after man enters her mother life.

Just something to think about. I suggest you set up some IC for your stepkid.


----------



## Uptown

7-8, I'm so sorry it worked out that way but, at the same time, I am glad you finally got a sense of closure on this toxic marriage. I wish you the best during the divorce process.


----------



## totamm

SevenEight said:


> Going to contact a divorce lawyer asap to make sure I don't get ****ed over. I have plenty of evidence of her infidelity.


Generally speaking, evidence of infidelity is irrelevant as far as the courts are concerned.

You know she cheated you want out of the marriage and evidently so does she, so all that's left is to figure out who gets what. Her cheating has no bearing on asset distribution, support, custody, that sort of thing. Even though in an ideal world it might.


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## terrence4159

im so sorry man just cut your losses and run, you tried more than most men would ever consider. hold your head up high that you tried so much, remember we are here for you to vent and most of us have been where you are, my XW remarried before the ink was dry


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## SevenEight

Thanks a lot for the support. It really helps. Never felt so weak and emotional in my life as I have lately. When this is all over I will do what I can to repay all the help I've gotten here.

Every day is just a roller coaster of emotions. I can't wait to feel more consistent. I have been reaching out and getting lots of support from friends, family, co-workers, counseling, etc but it just can't get better quick enough.

This morning after I left for work I got a text from her saying that she just felt compelled to tell me that she still loves me. But - she also made sure to point out that she's not in love with me and still wants a divorce. wtf. Things like that are just ****ing with my head.

Then I get an email saying how love stays in your heart forever - basically telling me that she'll always love me even after she leaves.

Then later in the day I get a text asking if we can have written terms and make the divorce as smooth as possible (very matter of fact, cold text message). We have very few joint assets, and the only one I'm concerned about is her car, which is in my name because she couldn't get a loan when we bought it. I just want to consult a lawyer to make sure she won't be able to come back later and want money from me. She claims she does not want it, but obviously I don't trust her at all right now.


After work I'm going to go home to feed our cats, then going to work out and then staying at my brother's and his wife's house.


----------



## tom67

You are right get everything in writing you can't trust her sorry how this turned out bro.


----------



## Shaggy

And why aren't you exposing the OM and his unethical actions?


----------



## Conrad

Shaggy said:


> And why aren't you exposing the OM and his unethical actions?


Is there a posOMW?


----------



## SevenEight

Shaggy said:


> And why aren't you exposing the OM and his unethical actions?


I may still do that, but not yet. I know all the advice on this forum says you should do it asap, but I just want our divorce to go through smoothly at this point.

I wouldn't want my wife to come back to me just because she can't be with this unethical pos. If that were to happen, it would feel like I was her 2nd choice and that's not how it should be.

She still claims that she doesn't want a relationship with him anyway (basically they are just friends that **** sometimes). Who knows what to believe from her anyway. 

I am angry at myself for thinking that she was something different than what she's showing herself to be, and allowing her to have this much power over me.


----------



## SevenEight

Conrad said:


> Is there a posOMW?


From what I have found out, he is not married. I do have other information that I can use, but I'm holding it at the moment. Like I said, at this point I'd just like to get it over with as smoothly as possible.


----------



## tom67

SevenEight said:


> From what I have found out, he is not married. I do have other information that I can use, but I'm holding it at the moment. Like I said, at this point I'd just like to get it over with as smoothly as possible.


Ok get the d over with then go scorched earth on his @ss!


----------



## keko

Exposing the OM now would be your best shot, once things settle it'll make no difference. Stop being a nice guy.


----------



## SevenEight

keko said:


> Exposing the OM now would be your best shot, once things settle it'll make no difference. Stop being a nice guy.


Best shot at what, saving my marriage? Or getting some sort of revenge?


----------



## wtf2012

7-8, She will be back. You must prepare yourself for the hoovering. Like Uptown said 6 to 12 months of anger...make sure to stay resolute. Beware the crocodile tears, suicide threats, gaslighting, and manipulation.

From my experience, damage such as your STBXW's often results from a f*cked up childhood/family life. I bet continued contact with her daughter would mean the world to the daughter...if you can handle it. Man I feel so bad for that little girl. She needs some normalcy to look up to, and she has such a rough road ahead her with mother being her major caregiver. My guess is your STBXW's family is a raft full of crazy and dysfunction.

Finally if the car is left in your name (or cosigned) in the divorce agreement, then when (not if) she stops paying the note, totals the car, or otherwise makes some stupid decision that will hurt you financially be prepared. Do your best to get away clear.


----------



## wtf2012

Also if you want to get back at the other man...your best shot is doing everything you can to make her his problem!


----------



## totamm

SevenEight said:


> I may still do that, but not yet. I know all the advice on this forum says you should do it asap, but I just want our divorce to go through smoothly at this point.


Not every poster on this board believes in exposure, I'm one that goes against the grain on that one.

If you want the divorce to go smoothly do not expose or do anything that will unecessarily escalate the conflict.

The advice to expose applies only to a betrayed spouse who is desperately trying to save the marriage and it's a high risk to benefit because the odds are the reconciliation will fail and if there is a loss of job as a result of exposure the betrayed spouse will probably pay more in support, not to mention the higher cost of the extra litigation due to the inability of the two parties to settle things amicably.


----------



## SevenEight

wtf2012 said:


> 7-8, She will be back. You must prepare yourself for the hoovering. Like Uptown said 6 to 12 months of anger...make sure to stay resolute. Beware the crocodile tears, suicide threats, gaslighting, and manipulation.
> 
> From my experience, damage such as your STBXW's often results from a f*cked up childhood/family life. I bet continued contact with her daughter would mean the world to the daughter...if you can handle it. Man I feel so bad for that little girl. She needs some normalcy to look up to, and she has such a rough road ahead her with mother being her major caregiver. My guess is your STBXW's family is a raft full of crazy and dysfunction.
> 
> Finally if the car is left in your name (or cosigned) in the divorce agreement, then when (not if) she stops paying the note, totals the car, or otherwise makes some stupid decision that will hurt you financially be prepared. Do your best to get away clear.


Yeah, I'm aware of the possibility that she will be back after we divorce. I don't know, she seems pretty resolute about it right now. She says she doesn't want to lose our friendship, so I don't know what that means. Maybe she's afraid to lose her plan B (me). I certainly will try my hardest to make myself move on. It's hard to even trust my own judgment and intuition anymore at this point, so I'm just handling it one day at a time.

Her family does have some issues for sure. However they have always been welcoming to me and I do admire them for that. My stbxw has said some pretty bad things about them at times though. I just don't know what to believe about them anymore, considering what I've read that she wrote about me behind my back.

She also seems really intent on just getting the divorce over with without seeking any money or anything from me. I'm thankful for that, and if the car is the only thing that still ties me to her, I'll take it. It could be a whole lot worse. We'll probably just end up writing up some terms to have her pay the monthly car payment to me and to keep the required insurance on it, and I'll just hope for the best. I just was looking at all the divorce paperwork and it freaked me the f out to see what she could do to me financially if she wanted to.


----------



## SevenEight

totamm said:


> Not every poster on this board believes in exposure, I'm one that goes against the grain on that one.
> 
> If you want the divorce to go smoothly do not expose or do anything that will unecessarily escalate the conflict.
> 
> The advice to expose applies only to a betrayed spouse who is desperately trying to save the marriage and it's a high risk to benefit because the odds are the reconciliation will fail and if there is a loss of job as a result of exposure the betrayed spouse will probably pay more in support, not to mention the higher cost of the extra litigation due to the inability of the two parties to settle things amicably.


This makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for your post.

As much as she has hurt me, the bottom line is I wouldn't want her back anyway if it was only because she was exposed. I just think I would be waiting around for it to happen again.

I do agree that doing that at this point would only increase anger and increase the chances of an ugly divorce.

I talked to my brother and his wife last evening, and they really helped me a lot. They also thought that I should just do the paperwork and get it over with as smoothly as possible.


----------



## keko

SevenEight said:


> Best shot at what, saving my marriage? Or getting some sort of revenge?


Most effective exposure.


----------



## lover71

In most advance systems there's different warnings built in to alert
you when something goes wrong. I think that all relationships should have a similar system which will help people to navigate when a relationship is lost.

Maybe you have asked yourself: "Should I continue to be in this
relationship or should I end it?" You're not alone in this. To go separate ways is a big decision. When I meet couples or separate clients I often ask: "Are you sure?" It doesn't matter if you're married or not. Too often I come across clients who want to end his or her relationship after a big fight with their partner. Decisions that's decided quickly is seldom successful.

It's not so strange if this question brings out agony since it's not
so easy to figure out the answer. You're not certain what to do.
Maybe you're in a good place and might not find anything better or it might be that the emptiness that you feel inside is telling you that something important is missing in the relationship but you're not sure of what it is. You might neglect yourself the possibility to
have have a magical relationship which would do you good for the rest of your life. lovetestnow.com


----------



## warlock07

SevenEight said:


> I loved her deeply and way beyond anyone else I've ever been with. She is the only one that I've ever fully trusted, knew that I could count on.
> 
> That part of me desperately still wants her back, yes. For a long time we both acted madly in love with each other. We had ups and downs at times like any couple, and growing pains, learning more about each other, but when it was good it was what I have always wanted in a woman. She has all the qualities that I wanted, until recently. Was I just deceived, and she is not really the person I thought she was? Or is she just severely mentally ill and not capable of being a stable, good wife all the time?
> 
> Yesterday when we talked she was actually worried that I was going to do something to ruin the OM's career, since he is in the field of psychology and what he has done could be viewed as unethical. How can she worry about him? He knew she was married.
> 
> But I know I don't want to live with hate. I believe that forgiveness is ultimately the best, but not at the expense of my self worth.
> 
> I'm so confused.
> 
> What do you mean "playing to the gallery"? I wish I was stronger at the moment to just kick her out. But I also love my step daughter, and I don't want to hurt her in any way.



it is an ethical problem and the rukles are there for that particuar reason. If you haven' t already, you need to expose this guy out of common dignity if not out of revenge. You want this kind of guy to treat mentally vulnerable people ? F*ck him


----------



## SevenEight

warlock07 said:


> it is an ethical problem and the rukles are there for that particuar reason. If you haven' t already, you need to expose this guy out of common dignity if not out of revenge. You want this kind of guy to treat mentally vulnerable people ? F*ck him


He's not an actual practicing psychologist. He did teach a psych class at one point (not anymore though), and I believe currently works or is a consultant for a big health care company. So, I'm not sure if his employer would care or not. Big health care companies generally don't seem like the most ethical organizations anyway.

Trust me, I want very badly to let this fvcker's family know what a pos he is. I also found out that he is in a relationship and either had someone else already living with him, or planning on moving in soon. I don't know who she is yet, but I will find out.

Yes, for common dignity I will expose this as5hole, at least to warn his gf of what kind of person he is.

I just don't want to do it yet because I want things to go smoothly at this point. My wife has agreed to go to some counseling with me, so I want to see what happens there, even if just for closure. If we do get divorced (which seems extremely likely, although I'll admit I am still living the rollercoaster and hope for the best sometimes). For some reason a big part of me still really loves her (probably somethign wrong with me for still feeling this, not sure).


----------



## warlock07

Imagine yourself cheating on her while badmouthing and bashing her to mutual friends..


----------



## SevenEight

Having a difficult last night and morning... going to just write.

Our plan at the moment is that she is looking for a place to move out, and we are going to do weekly counseling to help us figure things out. We are doing both individual and couples sessions. We are delaying the divorce papers until at least a few counseling sessions. We were ready to meet with an attorney together to get the divorce papers filed, but I know that part of both of us still aren't sure if that's what we want. I can't help but know that I still love her very much and hope that there is still a way. I know that on some level she does still have a lot of love for me. I know that she knows that she really needs to work on herself, and on some level wants to be a better person, mother, wife if possible.

She says that regardless of what happens with us, she does want to seek help to better herself as an individual. I might be a fool for believing anything from her at this point, but I do honestly believe that. I know there is a very good side to her, or I would never love her the way I do. The counselor we met with thought she might need to be on medication to help stabilize bipolar symptoms. It's hard to know what to do - I'm not sure if this is a legitimate justification for the way she acted or not, and even if it is legitimate, I don't know if it's something I would want to deal with in the long term. She is going to see a psychiatrist to evaluate her. I know for sure that unless she wants to change or better herself, it won't happen. It does seem like she really does want to better herself (with or without me).

I'll be on vacation for a week this coming week, which will be a nice break from being at home every evening in the same space together. It's so difficult to detach from the situation and have any clarity about things.

One thing I would like to get advice about from people here if possible is about her moving out. I spoke with a psychologist and he said that it can be ok for her to move out so we can "work on ourselves", but we should have some ground rules, otherwise it's probably better to just end it and be done with it.

He suggested some possible ground rules, such as that we don't pursue other relationships, otherwise we are just working on other relationships, and not ourselves. He also suggested that we schedule regular time to just enjoy each other, and not deal with the difficult issues. Thirdly, he said we also need to make sure to schedule time to actually work through the problems and issues, even if that time is done at the counselor's office during our sessions. I thought this sounded like good advice. Anybody gone through a separation like this, or have any thoughts?


----------



## anchorwatch

SevenEight said:


> He suggested some possible ground rules, such as that we don't pursue other relationships, otherwise we are just working on other relationships, and not ourselves.


7-8, That's what marriage vows are about. Aren't they? 

Here are my thoughts and you know I'm pro marriage. 

Let's check the facts. 

She has been diagnosed professionally with

Bipolar disorder diagnosis II to NOS.
PTSD (from past trauma and abuse)
Depersonalization disorder (DPD)
Anxiety with Panic disorder/agoraphobia
Insomnia
Depression

Results........

She's been in previously failed relationships. check
She's cheated before. check 
Less than a year married to you. check
She gives you the ILYBINILWY. check
She pucking some old guy. check
You catch her, she says he's nice, don't hurt him. check
She says she'll stop and get help, you catch her trying to hook up with web OM1? OM 2? or was he OM? check
She says you're the best guy. check
She fills out D parers. check 
She says I'm efed up. check
She moves out gets bored hooks with OM2, 3, 4, ? Not checked yet

Put down your shield and sword, they won't help you here. Your setting your self up for a load of hurt.

White Knight Sydrome

Go with the 180. If you must. Then sit back, detach and watch.


----------



## wtf2012

Are you trying to recouncile? Is that what you want? 

The separation thing...she will probably being see other people during the separation and hiding it. I mean if she couldn't help herself while you were around, do you think that will really change with you not around? It will probably just be easier for her to carry on, and she will have more justification in her head. 

I think some space would be good for you to see what life is like without her. You need a clear head, and spending time together with her is to work on the relationship. I think you should decide to stay before working on the relationship. It will be hard to make a clear decision with one foot in the relationship. Think about some time with no or very little contact and no in person visitation.

I think the reasons she is saying this stuff is her fear of abandonment (she is BPD right?). She doesn't want you out of her life for what you represent to her, but she doesn't really want you in her life in the way you want to be. Limbo sucks...I have spent alot of time there.

I know it is hard for you. To have those feelings of love, care, and concern for her but to know logically you should cut bait. You can walk away from this relatively unscathed (no mutual kids, no STDs, no major financial ties), yet her flame has the potential to make a moth out of you. Do you have codependent tendacies? To choose to stay with someone so damaged who has already betrayed you will be a difficult path. If you stay trying to help fix her...I think you will be in this situation again in the future. Your happiness and needs are important.


----------



## wtf2012

SevenEight said:


> I'm certain this is over now.
> 
> Last week on Thursday I had discovered that she had contacted the OM. Also, since she had given me the passwords to her three email accounts as well as linkedin, I discovered that she had created another new email account that was intended to keep hidden from me.
> 
> She still never admitted to a single thing until I told her I already knew. At that point I was ready to be done with it. I left to cancel our joint fitness club membership (just to drop her, not me) and while I was gone I received call after call which I did not answer. She then sent me a text saying things like "I'm a horrible person... you are the only one who ever tried to help me..." and so forth. When I came back she was crying, sobbing, for the first time since this whole mess she really seemed to show some remorse or sadness about it.
> I really believed that she was genuinely wanting to fix things. We spent the time between then and today working on ourselves (or so I thought). We had our first counseling appt yesterday.
> 
> At the appointment, I felt that we were both sincere and we both liked the counselor. The counselor felt that she needed to get on meds as soon as possible - that she was all over the place.
> 
> Then today, I decided to check her accounts because I was feeling really insecure and paranoid. I hated feeling the need to do this. I knew that she would find a way to keep secrets if she really wanted to.
> 
> In her linkedin, I find a message she had sent earlier today, about 1/2 hour after I left for work. It was to one of the guys she had sent texts of herself to before (not the one she was actually ****ing, as far as I know, but I have no idea what actually happened behind my back). Her message was along the lines of "please send me your number via text quickly so I can write it down, and don't send me any more messages". She deleted her sent message, and then deleted it from the trash as well (trying to hide it). I only knew because the guy responded back to her, and I saw his response with her original email.
> 
> I called her and told her it's over. Told her what I knew, started filling out divorce paperwork. What a ****ing dishonest human being she is. She actually still had the audacity to tell me that she only wanted to get a professional contact from this guy, that it wasn't the way I saw it. Wtf.
> 
> I really thought we still had a chance.
> 
> I can't ever believe a word from her lying mouth anymore.
> 
> I am such a fool for falling for a person like this. She is not who I thought she was.
> 
> Going to contact a divorce lawyer asap to make sure I don't get ****ed over. I have plenty of evidence of her infidelity.
> 
> **** this sucks.
> 
> Not even one year married. I was committed to her for the rest of my life.




Just wanted to remind you of this. I think this counselor is doing a number on your resolve. You know that a marriage counselor is usually trying to save the marriage...if that is not what you want then stop going. The "I really want to be friends" is bull****. Do you treat your friends like she has treated you? You do not need counseling to be friends...do you attend relationship counseling with any of your other friends? I don't want to be harsh, but you are getting hoovered already and you have a looonnnggg way to go before you are divorced. I do you feel for you...I know alot of what you are feeling right now.


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> 7-8, That's what marriage vows are about. Aren't they?
> 
> Here are my thoughts and you know I'm pro marriage.
> 
> Let's check the facts.
> 
> She has been diagnosed professionally with
> 
> Bipolar disorder diagnosis II to NOS.
> PTSD (from past trauma and abuse)
> Depersonalization disorder (DPD)
> Anxiety with Panic disorder/agoraphobia
> Insomnia
> Depression
> 
> Results........
> 
> She's been in previously failed relationships. check
> She's cheated before. check
> Less than a year married to you. check
> She gives you the ILYBINILWY. check
> She pucking some old guy. check
> You catch her, she says he's nice, don't hurt him. check
> She says she'll stop and get help, you catch her trying to hook up with web OM1? OM 2? or was he OM? check
> She says you're the best guy. check
> She fills out D parers. check
> She says I'm efed up. check
> She moves out gets bored hooks with OM2, 3, 4, ? Not checked yet
> 
> Put down your shield and sword, they won't help you here. Your setting your self up for a load of hurt.
> 
> White Knight Sydrome
> 
> Go with the 180. If you must. Then sit back, detach and watch.


Anchorwatch,

When you list it all like that, man am I fvcked in the head right now. I know my rational side knows all that you wrote already. But loving someone is not rational in some ways. I'm sure there are some deep seated psychological/emotional issues that cause us to love who we love. I probably need to read what you just wrote on a regular basis to remind me and help me detach, because I do know I need to figure out how to do that more right now. 

I thought - knew in my heart and mind that I could always trust her and that I would always have her love. What an ugly, hard lesson I'm learning. I don't want to become a hardened, angry and resentful person from this. I see now how that is a self defense mechanism for being severely hurt.

I honestly don't think I am the white knight kind of guy normally. I will admit that my judgment isn't always the greatest though, so who knows. When I first was getting to know my wife, her being really emotionally up and down actually kept my guard up for a long time. I enjoyed talking, hanging out with her, and the sex was beyond my fantasies, but I didn't see her as a serious commitment for probably at least a year when we were dating. In the beginning she was the one who really wanted us to have a future together. She was so loving and affectionate, and we could spend days and nights just enjoying each other's company doing nothing really, that I really fell hard for her eventually. I don't know what I should/could have done differently. I took a huge risk, had more love in my life than I imagined possible for a while, and now it's all coming crashing down like this. At that time it didn't feel like it was such a huge risk - just felt right. I feel so bipolar - is bipolar contagious? 

I keep going back and forth about just signing the divorce papers and letting her go, or living in limbo for a while longer to see what comes of therapy/counseling. I fully realize that I may just be setting myself up for more hurt. I also fear that if we just divorce, that I may hurt even more by losing her if there was some chance of repairing the damage that was done. It's not an easy decision.

It will definitely be good for me to be snowboarding in Wyoming next week with some good friends. I know it will be good when she does move out, just so hopefully I can see things a little more clearly.

I sincerely appreciate your comments. Still confused as ever, but it helps me process to hear things from other people that have insight I don't at the moment.


----------



## anchorwatch

SevenEight said:


> One thing I would like to get advice about from people here if possible is about her moving out. I spoke with a psychologist and he said that it can be ok for her to move out so we can "work on ourselves", but we should have some ground rules, otherwise it's probably better to just end it and be done with it.
> 
> He suggested some possible ground rules, such as that we don't pursue other relationships, otherwise we are just working on other relationships, and not ourselves. He also suggested that we schedule regular time to just enjoy each other, and not deal with the difficult issues. Thirdly, he said we also need to make sure to schedule time to actually work through the problems and issues, even if that time is done at the counselor's office during our sessions. I thought this sounded like good advice. Anybody gone through a separation like this, or have any thoughts?



I've thought more about this separation the counselor suggested I think it might show you if she's can do this or not. Do it! See what happens. I think you get a better feeling if your doing the right thing or not. That's what your looking for. Isn't it?


----------



## keko

It's good that she's moving out. Within a few months she'll realize the grass wasn't really green on the other side after all and come back to her back up plan(you). But make sure gets tested for a full slate of STD/HIV before you start having sex with her again. Good luck.


----------



## anchorwatch

As far as her being the one wanting a future together, this is what she does. She can never be happy. She will always look for someone else to make her happy. She gets excited when she finds someone new and thinks that's her cure for eternal happiness. Then she wakes up one day and looks in the mirror and sees it's still her unhappy self. The process stars over again and over again until she's too old and out of options.


----------



## SevenEight

wtf2012 said:


> Are you trying to recouncile? Is that what you want?
> 
> The separation thing...she will probably being see other people during the separation and hiding it. I mean if she couldn't help herself while you were around, do you think that will really change with you not around? It will probably just be easier for her to carry on, and she will have more justification in her head.
> 
> I think some space would be good for you to see what life is like without her. You need a clear head, and spending time together with her is to work on the relationship. I think you should decide to stay before working on the relationship. It will be hard to make a clear decision with one foot in the relationship. Think about some time with no or very little contact and no in person visitation.
> 
> I think the reasons she is saying this stuff is her fear of abandonment (she is BPD right?). She doesn't want you out of her life for what you represent to her, but she doesn't really want you in her life in the way you want to be. Limbo sucks...I have spent alot of time there.
> 
> I know it is hard for you. To have those feelings of love, care, and concern for her but to know logically you should cut bait. You can walk away from this relatively unscathed (no mutual kids, no STDs, no major financial ties), yet her flame has the potential to make a moth out of you. Do you have codependent tendacies? To choose to stay with someone so damaged who has already betrayed you will be a difficult path. If you stay trying to help fix her...I think you will be in this situation again in the future. Your happiness and needs are important.



I'm extremely confused right now (it's one of the few things I'm sure of) 

Yes, if she got herself healthy, showed true remorse, stopped lying, and I figured out a way to not be insecure and trust her again, I would want to reconcile. Crap, now that I say that, it's a really long shot, isn't it?

She is not actually BPD - I had heard her talk about some symptoms of it during her moments of self-awareness, but after I read about BPD I know she is not nearly that severe with her swings. I do know she has had some bipolar episodes lately though.

One of my biggest insecurities is that once she moves out, it will be easier for her to lie to me. Not sure how to handle that one yet. Maybe just have to assume that's going to happen until I can be shown otherwise.

I know it will be better for me once we have more space between us. At times I feel fine lately, but every time I come home or talk to her it is near impossible to stay strong.

I think I probably do have some co-dependency traits towards her, but I truly think that I allowed myself to be this way because I thought that in a true committed bond between a husband and wife, it would be ok to depend on each other's love. I have not felt this way in past relationships ever. I also do value my own happiness very highly. That is probably part of why it's so hard to let go even with all the logical reasons to do so - because I know how happy I was with her when things were good.

Limbo sucks.




wtf2012 said:


> Just wanted to remind you of this. I think this counselor is doing a number on your resolve. You know that a marriage counselor is usually trying to save the marriage...if that is not what you want then stop going. The "I really want to be friends" is bull****. Do you treat your friends like she has treated you? You do not need counseling to be friends...do you attend relationship counseling with any of your other friends? I don't want to be harsh, but you are getting hoovered already and you have a looonnnggg way to go before you are divorced. I do you feel for you...I know alot of what you are feeling right now.


Thanks - I think the counselor was saying what he said because I was talking about wanting to see if there was a way to make things better. It wasn't his idea to begin with, he was just pointing out recommendations for separating and working on ourselves. You may be right that it's affecting my resolve to just end it.

Yes, I'm fully aware that friends don't do that to each other. I have told her this many times already. She says that she never thought I really loved her, and had "checked out" of our relationship months ago. Since this thread began, she says she's really shocked to know that I really did love her so much, so I'm sure she's probably somewhat confused too.

On some level I know she realizes how wrong what she did was.

I just want to go to at least a few counseling sessions to see if anything helps make a decision. Maybe I should set a timeline of a few months of that to see what happens. I suppose in the meantime I should just assume that she's not with me anymore, and try to detach so I'm not so hurt all the time.

My mind has been sooo up and down lately, I feel like I'm going crazy at times.


----------



## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> I've thought more about this separation the counselor suggested I think it might show you if she's can do this or not. Do it! See what happens. I think you get a better feeling if your doing the right thing or not. That's what your looking for. Isn't it?


Yes, more than anything I just want to make the right decision for the long run, even if it means I have to suffer for a while longer.

thanks for the support


----------



## SevenEight

keko said:


> It's good that she's moving out. Within a few months she'll realize the grass wasn't really green on the other side after all and come back to her back up plan(you). But make sure gets tested for a full slate of STD/HIV before you start having sex with her again. Good luck.


Thanks keko. I really do hope that she's able to improve her health regardless of whether that's with me or not.


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## SevenEight

anchorwatch said:


> As far as her being the one wanting a future together, this is what she does. She can never be happy. She will always look for someone else to make her happy. She gets excited when she finds someone new and thinks that's her cure for eternal happiness. Then she wakes up one day and looks in the mirror and sees it's still her unhappy self. The process stars over again and over again until she's too old and out of options.


Interesting thoughts.

Right now she does seem intent on figuring herself out though. Like I said before, at times (a lot of the time) she does seem to have a lot of self-awareness and insight into the problems she has. Maybe unfortunately for me, it gives me hope for us because of this.

I know I need to figure out how to detach more, let her go and see if she actually does follow through on bettering herself.


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## SevenEight

Well, I am feeling better about the day now than I did earlier.

Really appreciate all the responses here.


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## natasha1983

SevenEight said:


> Well, shortly after reading some of the responses I went against what I wanted to do and looked in her email.
> 
> She has been cheating on me for sure with one guy, talking all sorts of terrible things about me to her friends like that this marriage was the worst decision she ever made, that it's like a mold that's spreading, that I am evil and not to look into my eyes, called me the "doom-mate", said we are "co-habitating". F*ck! It has now been a couple days and I am absolutely devastated. I've actually been shaking at times when trying to conversate with her or when trying to sleep. Today I went and got some meds to try to relax. I'm not violent, so don't take the shaking as a sign of danger, it's a nervous tick where it feels like my mind and body are trying to shake off the information that it has.
> 
> I found sexually explicit emails with things that she had done for me, but sent to another guy. This nice "other guy" apparently at first had a problem because my wife was still married, but through my wife's consistent attempts at convincing him, they finally got past that minor moral obstacle of our marriage. I hope this guy gets it back in some way.
> 
> I am beyond hurt, pissed, betrayed, vulnerable.
> 
> In addition to all this she had been sending provocative pictures (not nude, but in underwear/thongs/etc) to at least 4 other guys in addition. FUUUUUU*CK!
> 
> It gets even better. Right as I'm livid with anger and at the same time crushed because I really let my heart go for this woman, I get a text asking if I wanted to spend the night at her mom's house that night. She was housesitting.
> 
> I pulled it together and said sure, I'd go.
> 
> We get there, she's doing a great job of acting like she's still into me. By the way, her text said something like "you've really captured my heart this week..." because of my extra efforts to do whatever it takes to get our marriage back on track.
> 
> We start talking. I tell her about all the tiimes that I realized I could have done better, and how I really wanted her to communicate better to me if she's upset about something. Eventually I tell her I don't think she's being honest. She denies, denies, denies. I flat out ask her if she's cheating. She continues to deny. At my request, she looks me in the eyes and says "I swear to God that I'm not cheating on you".
> 
> We go to sleep. I am so upset in my sleep that I'm having shakes, spasms, and mini convulsions from my body/mind rejecting what I know and feel. I think I probably fell asleep for about 2 hours the whole night.
> 
> She's obviously worried about me, and seems to geniuinely want to make sure I'm alright. She drives me home, I'm still shaking at times.
> 
> Later at home I confront her again. This time I say - ok if you're not cheating, let me look at your phone and your laptop. She let's me look at her phone, because all evidence was already deleted. However, the laptop, no way. She actually tries to turn it around and get mad at me for trying to invade her privacy. At this point I just flat out say "I know you are cheating". She asks with who? I tell her (initials are ED). "I only ****ed him two times" she says. I tell her "thank you for being honest". I am a ****ing loser for saying that.
> 
> Since then we've had many conversations and we are going to see a counselor. I really don't know if there's anything left for us, but some part of me still loves her and wants to forgive her if I can. I honeslty don't know if I can, and I honestly don't know if I would ever be able to trust again.
> 
> I'd still like to go to counseling, if anything, just to get closure and know the whole story
> 
> I don't know, this sucks beyond anything that's ever happened to me. I completely loved this woman, still do for some reason, and she ripped my heart out with her actions. I'm sure I did plenty of stupid things in our relationship, but I was committed to working through whatever came our way for the rest of our lives.
> 
> The last two days have been the absolute lowest fn points of my life. I told my boss at work about it so I could take the rest of the week off, and it's close to unbearable at times.
> 
> And for some reason I still desperately want to make things better with her, if there is a way to forgive and know for sure this would never happen again.
> 
> What the f is wrong with me?




OMG, U are the male of version of me..Dont ever blame yourself for your wife's decision to leave..I don't know your relationship, except from what I have read on this thread so far..but it takes two to tango...and as much as you would blame yourself for not being as expressive and as "there for her", as you would have liked, she is being unbearably selfish..You are in fact too forgiving...just let that woman go, she does not value your love for her and neither does she respect you..No matter how bad things are between you, talking about you behind your back to others and painting you as a bad person, while pretending to care about you and enjoying the benefits of this marriage, is plain mean..And you don't need to feel guilty about checking on her..By doing what she has done, she has breached every marriage vow she has made to you...breaching her privacy is much lesser of the two evils..My husband did the same to me, though he never technically cheated on me (though I really can't be sure at this point), he behaved like a real SOB and blamed me for the failure of the marriage and for leaving (he admitted much later that it was not my fault, and that he just could not reciprocate or feel anything for me anymore which is why we would not work)..I was so desperate to save our marriage that I really believed whatever he said and bent over backwards trying to change myself and doing whatever I perceived would soften him towards me..I also had those violent shaky reactions that you are speaking about, especially whenever I saw his texts to his female colleague at work and his activity on dating sites, insomnia and nightmares whenever I did sleep, and I never let him know about it..I infact acted so normal about it, I surprised myself..Its amazing how much inner strength you can muster in situations like these, though your partner never sees it that way..they find your attempts to be normal annoying and "door mat" like and use it to their advantage..My husband still expected sexual intimacy those days and also for me to do his laundry and the cooking and every other housewifely chore, and I was more than willing to do it for him. 
Now a year later we are filing for divorce, and I am experiencing delayed rage, and regret that I let him off easy..sometimes being a bigger person sucks...Even at the last moment, When I saw the divorce papers in a moment of panic (which was surprising for me, since I really thought I was ready to move on),I told my husband that I can't in good conscience let our marriage go, and I still want our marriage since I did believe that we could be happy together like in the beginning; only to be slapped in the face with the same stuff he told me a year ago in his patronizing tone of voice, "you deserve so much better, why would you want to be with someone who cant love you, who does not value you, I can't pretend that I love you, when I don't and I feel it my duty to tell you, and dont worry, I am not seeing anyone, i just dont feel it anymore, I dont think I will for anyone"(and I know for a fact that he has been very active on dating sites) ...I wanted to punch him in his smug face, but my natural urge to behave like an adult and not clobber him to death stopped me..I reluctantly signed the papers and wished him success and happiness for the future (btw I have not demanded alimony or even thought about it..I should have but he has been having a very difficult time financially and I did not have the heart to ask him and I really dont need it anyway).I really hope at this point that he suffers a similar fate in his future relationships but oh well...Atleast I tried...As for your wife, just give yourself a break from this woman. There will be times in between during this separation that you will get the sense that she is coming around, since she will seek you out and she will actually miss you terribly during those times, but that will be for her own selfish reasons, to ensure that you are still there to catch her when she falls, because she knows instinctively that you are her pillar of strength in her fog of craziness..Dont fall for that trap, the minute she realizes that you are still there and waiting, she will shut you out and shoot you down again..these people live in their own world where the only people they care for are themselves, I am not sure if her BPD has anything to do with it, just an inherent selfishness and a focus on her own personal happiness over others'..Have you ever considered the possibility though, that she might have narcissistic personality disorder as well?? I have been reading up on it and I have a feeling my husband has it, the symptoms seem to match. Anyway I wish you the best of luck, its going to be a long road ahead but I am confident you are going to come out of it stronger and richer for the experience, however it turns out. Try not to get too resentful and bitter, because in this case, it is definitely NOT you, its her.


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## SevenEight

natasha1983 said:


> OMG, U are the male of version of me..Dont ever blame yourself for your wife's decision to leave..I don't know your relationship, except from what I have read on this thread so far..but it takes two to tango...and as much as you would blame yourself for not being as expressive and as "there for her", as you would have liked, she is being unbearably selfish..You are in fact too forgiving...just let that woman go, she does not value your love for her and neither does she respect you..No matter how bad things are between you, talking about you behind your back to others and painting you as a bad person, while pretending to care about you and enjoying the benefits of this marriage, is plain mean..And you don't need to feel guilty about checking on her..By doing what she has done, she has breached every marriage vow she has made to you...breaching her privacy is much lesser of the two evils..My husband did the same to me, though he never technically cheated on me (though I really can't be sure at this point), he behaved like a real SOB and blamed me for the failure of the marriage and for leaving (he admitted much later that it was not my fault, and that he just could not reciprocate or feel anything for me anymore which is why we would not work)..I was so desperate to save our marriage that I really believed whatever he said and bent over backwards trying to change myself and doing whatever I perceived would soften him towards me..I also had those violent shaky reactions that you are speaking about, especially whenever I saw his texts to his female colleague at work and his activity on dating sites, insomnia and nightmares whenever I did sleep, and I never let him know about it..I infact acted so normal about it, I surprised myself..Its amazing how much inner strength you can muster in situations like these, though your partner never sees it that way..they find your attempts to be normal annoying and "door mat" like and use it to their advantage..My husband still expected sexual intimacy those days and also for me to do his laundry and the cooking and every other housewifely chore, and I was more than willing to do it for him.
> Now a year later we are filing for divorce, and I am experiencing delayed rage, and regret that I let him off easy..sometimes being a bigger person sucks...Even at the last moment, When I saw the divorce papers in a moment of panic (which was surprising for me, since I really thought I was ready to move on),I told my husband that I can't in good conscience let our marriage go, and I still want our marriage since I did believe that we could be happy together like in the beginning; only to be slapped in the face with the same stuff he told me a year ago in his patronizing tone of voice, "you deserve so much better, why would you want to be with someone who cant love you, who does not value you, I can't pretend that I love you, when I don't and I feel it my duty to tell you, and dont worry, I am not seeing anyone, i just dont feel it anymore, I dont think I will for anyone"(and I know for a fact that he has been very active on dating sites) ...I wanted to punch him in his smug face, but my natural urge to behave like an adult and not clobber him to death stopped me..I reluctantly signed the papers and wished him success and happiness for the future (btw I have not demanded alimony or even thought about it..I should have but he has been having a very difficult time financially and I did not have the heart to ask him and I really dont need it anyway).I really hope at this point that he suffers a similar fate in his future relationships but oh well...Atleast I tried...As for your wife, just give yourself a break from this woman. There will be times in between during this separation that you will get the sense that she is coming around, since she will seek you out and she will actually miss you terribly during those times, but that will be for her own selfish reasons, to ensure that you are still there to catch her when she falls, because she knows instinctively that you are her pillar of strength in her fog of craziness..Dont fall for that trap, the minute she realizes that you are still there and waiting, she will shut you out and shoot you down again..these people live in their own world where the only people they care for are themselves, I am not sure if her BPD has anything to do with it, just an inherent selfishness and a focus on her own personal happiness over others'..Have you ever considered the possibility though, that she might have narcissistic personality disorder as well?? I have been reading up on it and I have a feeling my husband has it, the symptoms seem to match. Anyway I wish you the best of luck, its going to be a long road ahead but I am confident you are going to come out of it stronger and richer for the experience, however it turns out. Try not to get too resentful and bitter, because in this case, it is definitely NOT you, its her.


Natasha, thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry to hear about what happened with you. So many people don't treat each other right, and hurt each other so badly. It sucks to know that all I might have from all this is a hard life lesson, and a few more years of age (currently 34).

I don't in any way blame myself for the way my wife has acted recently, cheating and saying such horrible things about me to others. I do have some blame about some of our problems prior to that, but like I told my wife, the right thing to do would have been to tell me directly to my face, sober, and seriously, that we were having such problems and I was losing her. Trust me, I definitely know this much and I know I didn't deserve what she did in any way. Maybe she had good reasons to want a divorce earlier on if I wasn't fulfilling her needs. I did tell her many times that conflicts are a part of being married, and you learn about each other and try to figure things out together. My wife and I definitely had some communication problems. I never expected that this soon, she would have already given up on us in such a hurtful way. I am pissed but I think my pain of being deceived so badly is greater than my anger at the moment.

My wife was never diagnosed with BPD - in the past I actually paid very little attention to any past diagnoses she had, since I only wanted to treat her according to how she was with me, not according to labels that were given before I knew her. Most of the time she seemed to be a very genuinely caring person to myself and others, but apparently I did not see this other side of her personality, or maybe I was just blind.

Even though I know I have good reason to want to breach her privacy and snoop, I really don't believe that it's a good solution for me. I don't want honesty only because she feels I'm watching her - it needs to come from genuine desire to love each other and treat each other right. It's a real dilemma now because I'm paranoid all the time, and even though it seems like she wants to show me she can be trusted at times, I fear that it would take me years to overcome this, and by then the damage done might just snowball into more problems between us.

I dont' think the has narcissistic personality disorder. I know she has other possible mental illness though, such as what was listed in this thread (anxiety, bipolar at times, depression at times). She has actually been an extremely selfless person to others at times, going beyond out of her way to help and give of herself. For example, when I had a bunch of extra winter gloves and hats that I was no longer using, she would actually give them out to people she would see waiting for a bus or whatever if they didn't have gloves or a hat and it was a cold day. That is just one example of the kindness that she is capable of having. There are many more examples of her good side. I'm so fvcking conflicted and torn, because she obviously is capable of being a complete heartless b1tch as well.

I agree and know that I need a break from her. It's really hard right now because we are still living together, and I admit I still desperately want what we had at one point. Once she moves hopefully I will get more resolve and clarity about what to do. For now I'm trying to accept that I may need to suffer for a while longer, but at least we are both seeing a counselor.

I don't know how you were able to show strength around your husband when you were that hurt. I can sometimes, but I just know that she sees it's not genuine, because she knows me so well and I'm an honest person with her.


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## DavidWYoung

Please, don't drag this relationship out like I did. I should have ended it in the first year but I was like you and thought I had to work extra hard on the marriage. WRONG! Eject, Eject, Eject!


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## SevenEight

DavidWYoung said:


> Please, don't drag this relationship out like I did. I should have ended it in the first year but I was like you and thought I had to work extra hard on the marriage. WRONG! Eject, Eject, Eject!


I definitely can respect this viewpoint, as seen from the outside. Maybe I am being unbelievably blind to the reality of it right now. I know this is a possibility.

I think I do want to at least let her move out and go to counseling for a while, long enough to distance myself from the fog and have more decisiveness.

Did you share your story in a thread on here that I can read?


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## natasha1983

SevenEight said:


> I definitely can respect this viewpoint, as seen from the outside. Maybe I am being unbelievably blind to the reality of it right now. I know this is a possibility.
> 
> I think I do want to at least let her move out and go to counseling for a while, long enough to distance myself from the fog and have more decisiveness.
> 
> Did you share your story in a thread on here that I can read?


I found something on this site which might be comforting to you, no matter how your situation turns out, dont know if you have come across it already but incase you have'nt, you should read it, it will give you hope: 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66063-before-you-decide-leave-read-my-story.html


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## natasha1983

SevenEight said:


> Natasha, thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry to hear about what happened with you. So many people don't treat each other right, and hurt each other so badly. It sucks to know that all I might have from all this is a hard life lesson, and a few more years of age (currently 34).
> 
> I don't in any way blame myself for the way my wife has acted recently, cheating and saying such horrible things about me to others. I do have some blame about some of our problems prior to that, but like I told my wife, the right thing to do would have been to tell me directly to my face, sober, and seriously, that we were having such problems and I was losing her. Trust me, I definitely know this much and I know I didn't deserve what she did in any way. Maybe she had good reasons to want a divorce earlier on if I wasn't fulfilling her needs. I did tell her many times that conflicts are a part of being married, and you learn about each other and try to figure things out together. My wife and I definitely had some communication problems. I never expected that this soon, she would have already given up on us in such a hurtful way. I am pissed but I think my pain of being deceived so badly is greater than my anger at the moment.
> 
> My wife was never diagnosed with BPD - in the past I actually paid very little attention to any past diagnoses she had, since I only wanted to treat her according to how she was with me, not according to labels that were given before I knew her. Most of the time she seemed to be a very genuinely caring person to myself and others, but apparently I did not see this other side of her personality, or maybe I was just blind.
> 
> Even though I know I have good reason to want to breach her privacy and snoop, I really don't believe that it's a good solution for me. I don't want honesty only because she feels I'm watching her - it needs to come from genuine desire to love each other and treat each other right. It's a real dilemma now because I'm paranoid all the time, and even though it seems like she wants to show me she can be trusted at times, I fear that it would take me years to overcome this, and by then the damage done might just snowball into more problems between us.
> 
> I dont' think the has narcissistic personality disorder. I know she has other possible mental illness though, such as what was listed in this thread (anxiety, bipolar at times, depression at times). She has actually been an extremely selfless person to others at times, going beyond out of her way to help and give of herself. For example, when I had a bunch of extra winter gloves and hats that I was no longer using, she would actually give them out to people she would see waiting for a bus or whatever if they didn't have gloves or a hat and it was a cold day. That is just one example of the kindness that she is capable of having. There are many more examples of her good side. I'm so fvcking conflicted and torn, because she obviously is capable of being a complete heartless b1tch as well.
> 
> I agree and know that I need a break from her. It's really hard right now because we are still living together, and I admit I still desperately want what we had at one point. Once she moves hopefully I will get more resolve and clarity about what to do. For now I'm trying to accept that I may need to suffer for a while longer, but at least we are both seeing a counselor.
> 
> I don't know how you were able to show strength around your husband when you were that hurt. I can sometimes, but I just know that she sees it's not genuine, because she knows me so well and I'm an honest person with her.



I think your best bet would be to go 180 on her the minute she moves out. No sex, no nothing for the next few months. It will definitely be good for your sanity if nothing else. I dont doubt that she is a great person and selfless and everything you mentioned. The scary part is when this loving and affectionate person you thought you knew turns into a complete stranger right in front of you. and why? Because of some mistake you made in the past that you probably did not even realize you were making. Why cant they just tell us what their freaking problem is?? I also reasoned various times with my husband, I told him that boredom and dissatisfaction with your spouse are a part and parcel of marriage. That you can not always be 100% in love with your spouse all the time and it was okay as long as you can sit and talk about what is bothering you, and deal with it together through counseling or whatever he wanted. Its as if any attempt to be rational with them pushes them further away. A part of them knows what they are doing is wrong, but they don't want to deal with that, so they run away from reason. 
I had to summon the strength to be normal in front of him, because firstly I had begun snooping on him, and I (in my irrational mind) was feeling guilty about it and I also did not want to raise his suspicions. I had suspected that there was something going on before he even brought up the divorce but had brushed it away. Sure enough I was right, I found out later that he had become close to his co worker a month before our separation and was telling her about how unhappy he was with me and how he was planning on telling me that we were over. Another reason I acted normal was because once he told me it was over, I did not feel that I had the right to tell him who he could text or not and also because I blamed his closeness with his coworker on myself and my shortcomings as a person. And also because I was afraid that if I confronted him about her and went crazy on that ***** like I was tempted to, it would only push him closer to her since he would feel more justified about leaving me and make her even more appealing to him and him to her...Sure enough, the relationship between them fizzled eventually, as she lost interest in him once he was free..Though it did not do me any good in the end anyway.


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## SevenEight

natasha1983 said:


> I found something on this site which might be comforting to you, no matter how your situation turns out, dont know if you have come across it already but incase you have'nt, you should read it, it will give you hope:
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66063-before-you-decide-leave-read-my-story.html


thanks for the link. It is a sad story - both husband and wife suffered tremendously, and by the time the wife wanted to make things right, the husband already had gotten beyond the point of no return.


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## SevenEight

natasha1983 said:


> I think your best bet would be to go 180 on her the minute she moves out. No sex, no nothing for the next few months. It will definitely be good for your sanity if nothing else. I dont doubt that she is a great person and selfless and everything you mentioned. The scary part is when this loving and affectionate person you thought you knew turns into a complete stranger right in front of you. and why? Because of some mistake you made in the past that you probably did not even realize you were making. Why cant they just tell us what their freaking problem is?? I also reasoned various times with my husband, I told him that boredom and dissatisfaction with your spouse are a part and parcel of marriage. That you can not always be 100% in love with your spouse all the time and it was okay as long as you can sit and talk about what is bothering you, and deal with it together through counseling or whatever he wanted. Its as if any attempt to be rational with them pushes them further away. A part of them knows what they are doing is wrong, but they don't want to deal with that, so they run away from reason.
> I had to summon the strength to be normal in front of him, because firstly I had begun snooping on him, and I (in my irrational mind) was feeling guilty about it and I also did not want to raise his suspicions. I had suspected that there was something going on before he even brought up the divorce but had brushed it away. Sure enough I was right, I found out later that he had become close to his co worker a month before our separation and was telling her about how unhappy he was with me and how he was planning on telling me that we were over. Another reason I acted normal was because once he told me it was over, I did not feel that I had the right to tell him who he could text or not and also because I blamed his closeness with his coworker on myself and my shortcomings as a person. And also because I was afraid that if I confronted him about her and went crazy on that ***** like I was tempted to, it would only push him closer to her since he would feel more justified about leaving me and make her even more appealing to him and him to her...Sure enough, the relationship between them fizzled eventually, as she lost interest in him once he was free..Though it did not do me any good in the end anyway.


When she moves, yes, I do know that I will need to detach as much as possible. I know it will be easier to do that when I'm not living with her. I really appreciate your advice.

I also tried to reason with my wife about how no matter how in love you are with someone, there will be times of hardship where you don't appreciate each other and have to figure out how to resolve your conflicts, and remember why you chose to get married to begin with. I'm not sure my wife is mature enough to have this mentality, I'm now learning. I still hope that there is a way, but it seems unlikely.

Right now I'm on vacation for the week. Went snowboarding at Grand Targhee - had 9 inches of fresh snow from last night, blue skies today for part of the day, staying in an awesome house with an outdoor hot tub, with my brother and two good friends. It feels awesome to be away for a while, although it's still hard not to think about my wife a lot.

Just hoping that this time of my life gets resolved quickly one way or the other so I can have peace again.

Going to try to just focus on the good times at hand this week and not deal with all the stress.


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