# Should there be a something like a 12-step program for wayward spouses?



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

There are many, many stories of infidelity here, and one thing that is very common is that the wayward spouses are often unable or struggle to control their carnal urges. While it is true that some cheaters are irredeemable and are fundamentally broken, many other cheaters seem like they are acting as if they are under the influence of drugs. And because of brain chemistry, that is true in some sense. Their brain is releasing large amounts of hormones that are similar to addictive drugs, and many people will struggle to resist those desires. 

A lot of the stories of WS have similarities to people with drug and alcohol addictions. People may act completely irrationally and throw away good jobs, family relationships, financial security and everything they hold dear in order to maintain their addiction. That's a similar situation to people who have affairs. Even when the WS knows there will be severe consequences, they still take the risk. So that makes me wonder if there should be a 12-step program for a recovering WS. In case you're not aware, here are the steps used in many addiction programs:



> Admitting powerlessness over the addiction
> Believing that a higher power (in whatever form) can help
> Deciding to turn control over to the higher power
> Taking a personal inventory
> ...


I think a program like this would help WS stay in recovery. It helps them realize they have a fundamental flaw when it comes to fidelity, and that they have to continually work on themselves to keep that flaw from affecting themselves and those around them.

While I don't necessarily agree with "once a cheater, always a cheater", I do think it's true that "once a cheater, more susceptible to cheat again". If the WS can think of themselves as a recovering cheater rather than a cured cheater, I think they'll be less likely to cheat again.

And also for the BS, it would help if they viewed the WS as a recovering addict. Just like any recovering addict is always at risk for relapse, so is the recovering WS at risk for having another affair. When evaluating whether to stick it out, the BS should evaluate whether their WS is acting as a recovering addict or treating the affair as a one-time anomaly. The affair might end up being a one-time thing, but the character flaw is likely permanent. There needs to be continual effort to keep that flaw in check.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I think something based on the 12 step idea could definitely be useful. I don't know that I could say "should" because I am resistant to that word in general. 

A WS DEFINITELY needs to do way more than cry and promise not to do it again!


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

the "higher power" stuff just sounds creepy to me. It sounds like a way to avoid responsibility. I like your drug addict analogy. Sexual novelty gives us the greatest natural release of dopamine. Meth acts the same way and we know how addicting that is for some.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Yeah, honestly, if you look at the first roots of AA, it wasn't a vague "higher power." If someone doesn't have faith in a god or religion, they shouldn't have to fake one or make something up to be in a program. Admitting you are powerless without support would suffice.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I'm not sure if the standard 12-steps would be the right thing for the WS. It might be the right thing for a chemical addiction, but maybe not infidelity. There's a lot of 'powerless' and 'higher-power' words that make it seem like the person can't control it themselves. 

Some of the steps seem like they'd be good, but maybe some other steps could be added like:

- Admitting to a permanent character flaw and moral failing
- Admitting that all trust has been lost with the spouse and that it must be earned back
- Agree to complete and total transparency
- Taking personal inventory
- Examining one's behaviors to identify actions and environments which create temptations
- Making a list of wrongs done to others and being willing to make amends for those wrongs
- Contacting those who have been hurt, unless doing so would harm the person
- Continuing to take personal inventory and admitting when one is wrong


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

wilson said:


> I'm not sure if the standard 12-steps would be the right thing for the WS. It might be the right thing for a chemical addiction, but maybe not infidelity. There's a lot of 'powerless' and 'higher-power' words that make it seem like the person can't control it themselves.
> 
> Some of the steps seem like they'd be good, but maybe some other steps could be added like:
> 
> ...


I agree with everything except the first one. I would change it to "Take complete personal responsibility for the choice to cheat."


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

wilson said:


> There are many, many stories of infidelity here, and one thing that is very common is that the wayward spouses are often unable or struggle to control their carnal urges. While it is true that some cheaters are irredeemable and are fundamentally broken, many other cheaters seem like they are acting as if they are under the influence of drugs. And because of brain chemistry, that is true in some sense. Their brain is releasing large amounts of hormones that are similar to addictive drugs, and many people will struggle to resist those desires.
> 
> A lot of the stories of WS have similarities to people with drug and alcohol addictions. People may act completely irrationally and throw away good jobs, family relationships, financial security and everything they hold dear in order to maintain their addiction. That's a similar situation to people who have affairs. Even when the WS knows there will be severe consequences, they still take the risk. So that makes me wonder if there should be a 12-step program for a recovering WS. In case you're not aware, here are the steps used in many addiction programs:
> 
> ...


From reading these stories the only people who have changed are ones who take this approach. Barring the very drunk ONS the behavior of most cheaters is like that of an addict. The drunk ones are probably alcoholics too though. So there is that. 

There are people who recover from being addicts but adapting to that fact is part of their whole life strategy. I think the same needs to be true of cheaters. And I agree it is very much as risky as any other addiction. 

Sometime it doesn't have to just manifest in one addiction. So they don't cheat again but maybe they abuse trust with money. Or they are abusive in how they talk to you. As you peel back the layers of the marriage you see that it's generally not a very good one at least for the BS and the cheating is just the culmination of tying your life to someone with very poor character. Thing is the BS usually has no frame of reference to know any different. 

Even still there is SO much more to just getting to this point when you are deciding to stay with them. This kind of stuff in my mind is really only a requirement for the possibility of R.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

I think the idea has some merit, but it is not practical... IRL. 

The issue with WS's in general is that they have issues. It takes a lot for someone with serious issues to actually say that 1) I have issues and 2) I need to fix it.

And, we have seen many WS's on all of these sites that just want to say, hey I make a "mistake" so get over it. 

And, we also have BS's that want to get over it, but if they are strong enough to admit it and just divorce, they are better off. But some are content to just live in denial and lead miserable lives. 

But just like the 12 step program, the WS has to WANT to do the hard work. Most don't. 

That is the reason that I have so much respect for @FoolishOne. She was on her way to being a good WS, but she came here and listened to the hard advice and now, she is on the path to the salvation of her marriage. I may not work out, but it has a way better chance now. 

It takes someone like that to even think about doing the hard work...


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> The issue with WS's in general is that they have issues. It takes a lot for someone with serious issues to actually say that 1) I have issues and 2) I need to fix it.
> 
> And, we have seen many WS's on all of these sites that just want to say, hey I make a "mistake" so get over it.


That is one critical difference about someone who has an affair. Whatever moral failing allows them to justify having an affair in the first place probably also contributes to their inability to recognize it as a moral failing. But, on the other hand, people with chemical addictions often realize they have a problem and will want to get help. WS rarely reach that point on their own. 

With addicts, it's useless to try to help them until they actually are willing to help themselves. Whether or not they agree to go to treatment tells you a lot about how likely it is for the treatment to work. I feel the same could be true for a 12-step WS program. If the WS balks and says they won't do it, then reconciliation is a waste of time because they are not in the right mindset to fix the problem. But if they agree, then it gives them a framework to work towards recovery. 

I feel similarly about things like transparency, DNA tests, polygraphs, etc. It's not so much the answers you get from those things, but it's the reaction and the willingness of the WS to those requests. If they push back, then reconciliation is a waste of time. But if they agree, then it shows they have the right mindset and it might be possible to reconcile.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

wilson said:


> That is one critical difference about someone who has an affair. Whatever moral failing allows them to justify having an affair in the first place probably also contributes to their inability to recognize it as a moral failing. But, on the other hand, people with chemical addictions often realize they have a problem and will want to get help. WS rarely reach that point on their own.
> 
> With addicts, it's useless to try to help them until they actually are willing to help themselves. Whether or not they agree to go to treatment tells you a lot about how likely it is for the treatment to work. I feel the same could be true for a 12-step WS program. If the WS balks and says they won't do it, then reconciliation is a waste of time because they are not in the right mindset to fix the problem. But if they agree, then it gives them a framework to work towards recovery.
> 
> I feel similarly about things like transparency, DNA tests, polygraphs, etc. It's not so much the answers you get from those things, but it's the reaction and the willingness of the WS to those requests. If they push back, then reconciliation is a waste of time. But if they agree, then it shows they have the right mindset and it might be possible to reconcile.


I agree with most of this. 

I am just of the opinion that Reconciliation is, in almost every case, a waste of time. I know it is for me. 

And you could actually say that is a real contrite remorseful WS was really those things, there is enough information on the internet to tell them what, if anything they can do to get their marriage back. 

So the fact that they don't have sense enough to figure that out in the first place, kind of tells you what you need to know...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Tell me. Why would someone want to go through all that? 

I'd drop the higher power stuff. That's for home use on an individual basis.

Wouldn't it also be good to figure out the trigger(s) and work on recognizing the situations which cause the triggered infidelity? 

Wouldn't recognizing those issues and figuring out a way to work through, around, over, or under them be important? 

I think a program like that accompanied by some individual counseling for both and some marital counselling would work well. 

That's a ton of work. Not sure anyone would want to do that. 

I tend to believe that the WS has gotten, somehow, to their limits and needs something else. Those limits may have been triggered by a combination of things truly going on in the marriage and things outside the marriage. Fault may lie all around. It usually does.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Tell me. Why would someone want to go through all that?


Good question! I don't have the answer to that. I personally wouldn't try to reconcile, but many people do. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, many people go down that path. 

Right now I feel that the post-infidelity advice is too unstructured. There's a lot that is done in the immediate moment, but after that, what happens? For the couple trying to reconcile, there is not good reference they can turn to for how to go down that path with the most chance of long-term success. 

If you found out your spouse was an alcoholic, you would likely have a good understanding of what needs to be done in the short-term (throw out alcohol, get into rehab, etc.). And you would have a good idea of what would be needed long-term (AA for your spouse, AlAnon for you). And you probably have the understanding that this is not something with a quick fix. I feel that kind of structure is missing for infidelity. Something like a 12-step plan would give the couple a better chance of success, as well as making it more obvious when the WS was not sticking to the plan. 

As it stands, it is pretty much a waste to try to reconcile. The couple may have success in the short term when there is a flurry of activity and motivation, but then old habits return when it gets back to the day-to-day normality. Even the BS is commonly guilty of minimizing the issue and the amount of work it will take. Having something that calls out what it takes to reconcile long-term will help the couple realize if they really are willing to do what it takes or if they are just rug-sweepers.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

wilson said:


> Good question! I don't have the answer to that. I personally wouldn't try to reconcile, but many people do. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, many people go down that path.
> 
> Right now I feel that the post-infidelity advice is too unstructured. There's a lot that is done in the immediate moment, but after that, what happens? For the couple trying to reconcile, there is not good reference they can turn to for how to go down that path with the most chance of long-term success.
> 
> ...


I think there are some good ideas in this. I don't know if anyone has formalized all of it, and it might be a good idea to do that. 

Now, the book, "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" is a good and oft recommended book. 

I have not looked at it in a while. How complete is it, How remedial it is, I really don't remember. 

But there are several others. 

I know there are some books on the other side. But for me, unless it said - divorce first and think about reconciliation later, that would never be for me. 

The fact is that, there is really nothing the BS can do, except file for divorce and see if the WS tries to win then back, and FINDS the information and techniques that may help in doing that. 

Even then, I think most people that are healthy at all, would just divorce. 

There is really nothing that any woman could do to win me back after cheating on me. There are simply too many other woman out there that have not done that to me, so why would I want to go back...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

wilson said:


> Good question! I don't have the answer to that. I personally wouldn't try to reconcile, but many people do. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, many people go down that path.
> 
> Right now I feel that the post-infidelity advice is too unstructured. There's a lot that is done in the immediate moment, but after that, what happens? For the couple trying to reconcile, there is not good reference they can turn to for how to go down that path with the most chance of long-term success.
> 
> ...


Yep, that's why I think there must be known triggers which would differ from person to person with some similarities. These, once found, could be talked about and dealt with as they come. And, they will come throughout a person's life. Continuing this once a week for some years, then once a month, seems like a good idea. 

Combine that with learning how to discuss those issues with a spouse, then doing so regularly, makes me think it would help to make a stronger bond and a better marriage. Issues would be discussed. Triggers for both might come out and then some good solid discussion about what to do with follow up from both would be hard work, but build trust and love.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I think there are some good ideas in this. I don't know if anyone has formalized all of it, and it might be a good idea to do that.
> 
> Now, the book, "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" is a good and oft recommended book.
> 
> ...


Well, there is the "rub". Isn't it? That's a good reason why I don't see folks coming around telling others it's a good idea to reconcile. After all, both must want to try and be sincere, sorrowful, humble, grateful, respectful, and willing. It's damn near impossible to find that in a case of infidelity, where one is deeply hurt, even harmed. 

How do you get to the point of even discussing it in the midst of... what was it called? I can't remember the name for it, but it's the intense feeling of attraction and oneness afforded by oxytocin and several other brain chemicals. Those would have to be broken, first and completely, for there to be any chance of clear thinking on the one side. 

On the other side, how do you trust that what you are being told is even remotely truthful? How do you trust yourself to know it's the truth? 

It's damn difficult, and most times, impossible without a good counselor to help you both heal. I think.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

wilson said:


> There are many, many stories of infidelity here, and one thing that is very common is that the wayward spouses are often unable or struggle to control their carnal urges. While it is true that some cheaters are irredeemable and are fundamentally broken, many other cheaters seem like they are acting as if they are under the influence of drugs. And because of brain chemistry, that is true in some sense. Their brain is releasing large amounts of hormones that are similar to addictive drugs, and many people will struggle to resist those desires.
> 
> A lot of the stories of WS have similarities to people with drug and alcohol addictions. People may act completely irrationally and throw away good jobs, family relationships, financial security and everything they hold dear in order to maintain their addiction. That's a similar situation to people who have affairs. Even when the WS knows there will be severe consequences, they still take the risk. So that makes me wonder if there should be a 12-step program for a recovering WS. In case you're not aware, here are the steps used in many addiction programs:
> 
> ...


The poor snowflakes, infidelity is now added to the list as a disease over which they have no control. Please give me a break! Have you not heard of self-discipline and self control? So because I like having all the space on the middle of the road, I drive on it, or because I dont like waiting I just drive through the red stop lights, this is basically the same thing.
Just another politically correct way of thinking and not holding people accountable for their ****  
AND if they have such a problem keeping it in their pants or spreading their legs, isn't that what Sex Addicts Anonymous is for? Or are we now going to differentiate between those who go to SAA and other cheaters? Please this is ridiculous, people must take responsibility for themselves, if they cannot, they should not be in a relationship in the first place. Maybe we could stand categorising people and labelling them with letters with regard to their relationship risk profile, A - non cheater B- potential cheater C- definitely cheater, etc PLEASE, do you see how ridiculous this all is?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

aine said:


> The poor snowflakes, infidelity is now added to the list as a disease over which they have no control. Please give me a break! Have you not heard of self-discipline and self control? So because I like having all the space on the middle of the road, I drive on it, or because I dont like waiting I just drive through the red stop lights, this is basically the same thing.
> Just another politically correct way of thinking and not holding people accountable for their ****
> AND if they have such a problem keeping it in their pants or spreading their legs, isn't that what Sex Addicts Anonymous is for? Or are we now going to differentiate between those who go to SAA and other cheaters? Please this is ridiculous, people must take responsibility for themselves, if they cannot, they should not be in a relationship in the first place.


Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the 'powerless' stuff in the AA 12-steps. I would think it allows the person to absolve themselves of all responsibility. But, fortunately, I've never been an alcoholic, so maybe that's the best way for them to think of it.

Unless we get to the point of stoning adulterers, they'll still be members of society, friends, relatives, etc. Just saying they should keep it in their pants is probably going to be as successful as telling an alcoholic not to pick up the bottle. A WS may end up divorced, but they still have that moral failing within them. A 12-step kind of plan would be useful for helping those remorseful WS's keep it in their pants in the future. 



aine said:


> Maybe we could stand categorising people and labelling them with letters with regard to their relationship risk profile, A - non cheater B- potential cheater C- definitely cheater, etc


YES! That's a great idea! That way all the C's could marry each other and leave the A's to have happy marriages. And actually, it probably isn't too unrealistic to do. I bet you could gauge it based on traits like how self-centered they are, how morally vague they are, etc.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Aine Speaks to the biggest reason I hate the affair as addiction comparison. of course, I am one of those people who is skeptical about addiction being a disease, since you have to choose to pick up the bottle or pick up the needle. That said, and affair is not some illness that you are a victim of period it is a choice that you make. Hormonal chemicals aside, if you never made The Choice to begin with, you wouldn't be affected by the hormonal chemicals.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I can completely see the addiction angle, for sure. Instead of seeing it as a roadmap to reconciliation with the betrayed spouse, it should be seen as a way for the cheater to better understand the underlying mental issues that cause them to have such fragile boundaries. That same behavior will lend itself to a whole host of awful problems down the line in life... not just cheating. 

There's another addiction angle that I personally see ALL the time, and that is the betrayed spouse (men) not being able to disconnect from their cheater (commonly Borderline) wife. They just cannot break that hold the spouse has on them emotionally. They literally feel like they will die if the woman who treated them like complete dirt steps out of their lives. It is exactly like an alcoholic/drug addict. They have to stop completely. If they get a small taste, they fall off the wagon and their life is in shambles. This can happen YEARS down the line.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I agree with the concept, in theory. But as a BS I don't really care what my XW does anymore. So while it would be good for her to fix her character flaws, those flaws are no longer my problem to deal with.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Aine Speaks to the biggest reason I hate the affair as addiction comparison. of course, I am one of those people who is skeptical about addiction being a disease, since you have to choose to pick up the bottle or pick up the needle. That said, and affair is not some illness that you are a victim of period it is a choice that you make. Hormonal chemicals aside, if you never made The Choice to begin with, you wouldn't be affected by the hormonal chemicals.


 ^^^ This ^^^^

Playing the 'addiction' card sure is a great _*excuse*_ for serial cheaters to latch onto and absolve themselves from all accountability for their behavior - "it was the _'addiction' _doing it, not *me* or my complete lack of morals coupled with a desire to have tons of sexual variety." <insert huge eye roll here>

Sorry. Not buying it. I've known MANY guys over the years (and one woman) who simply thought it was great fun to get away with getting themselves some action on the side when the opportunity arose, and no one was the wiser (though some loved to brag to their buddies the next day about how they got lucky the night before). Some of them had a higher incidence of getting lucky because they were more attractive or charming than their brethren - it had nothing to do with some phony addiction driving them to get the higher numbers. It just stands to reason that a decent looking guy with a little charm is going to get luckier than some overweight, balding troll whose also working the room. That's just reality, folks. And some of these cheaters simply had much more opportunity to get lucky because they were away from home more than those who weren't getting as much side action. It's all relative.

Addiction my ASS. 

Selfish, opportunistic pigs who jump on an opportunity when it arises and who don't give a **** about anyone else they might be hurting? You betcha! They're EVERYWHERE. Poor addicted slob who's a slave to their _addiction_ and needs to hit rock bottom before they finally admit they have a 'problem?' Pfffft. You have a better chance of shaking hands with Jesus than you do of your average serial cheater being addicted to anything. :rofl:

I honestly don't understand why it's SO hard for people to just call a damned spade a *spade*. Cheaters make many, many, MANY conscious decision along the way to get to where they are, and I refuse to absolve them of their **** behavior by pretending they have some kind of addiction. That's about as nonsensical as the mythical 'fog' BS's want so badly to believe drags their cheater into it's grasp and causes them to act the way they're acting.

In this world of *'everyone gets a prize!'* I think true accountability has gone right down the drain.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I don't think cheating is exactly like an addiction, but I do think a cheater who wants to recover would benefit from following a program similar to a recovering addict. We all know that a truly remorseful WS is a rare thing, but for those that are, they should treat their weakness in the same way as someone with a chemical addiction. Far too often it's just dealt with in the moment and then forgotten about. Instead, recovering cheater needs to realize this character flaw will always exist within them and they need to continually take steps to manage it. That's similar to how a recovering alcoholic will need to always be vigilant not to slip back. Once they start thinking they are cured, they risk falling into old habits.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

wilson said:


> I don't think cheating is exactly like an addiction, but I do think a cheater who wants to recover would benefit from following a program similar to a recovering addict. We all know that a truly remorseful WS is a rare thing, but for those that are, they should treat their weakness in the same way as someone with a chemical addiction. Far too often it's just dealt with in the moment and then forgotten about. Instead, recovering cheater needs to realize this character flaw will always exist within them and they need to continually take steps to manage it. That's similar to how a recovering alcoholic will need to always be vigilant not to slip back. Once they start thinking they are cured, they risk falling into old habits.


It kind of depends on whether or not you believe in redemption.

When I was 9, I stole some lip glass - Kissing Potion, cherry flavored. My mom made me take it back and apologize. I was a thief. Am I still?


When my oldest was two, my youngest was 6 months, and my ex was....my ex, I had a really bad day in the midst of yet another unemployment for hubby crisis. My youngest had RSV and hadn't slept in a week. That was the day my oldest decided to protest potty training by decorating her ENTIRE room, including her mouth, with her poop.

I yelled at her, picked her up, and when my hand squished into some oppo under her arm, I threw her onto her bed. I overshot and her arm hit the wall.

That day, I abused my child. I fell apart, hugged her, washed her apologized over and over, and asked my mom to come up for a few days to help.

I never struck or physically disciplined either of my kids ever again. That was in 1999. Am I still a child abuser or am I cured?

It's very.....ego-empowering to decide that those who hurt us are incurable.

It's also just about ego. People can permanently change.


Yeah.....they can.

That said, it's not my job to stick around WHILE my cheating spouse cures themselves.


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## Imajerk17 (Apr 10, 2018)

This is a great thread.

You know, I am going to play Devil's Advocate and offer a controversial opinion here. I know the one viewpoint on here about cheaters is that they are all seriously broken individuals who need lots and lots of IC before they can even think about being in a relationship, period. But I am actually not so sure that in all instances this is true. 

Now I DO agree that in many instances, the cheater is indeed broken. But not all instances.

There are people in seriously dysfunctional marriages [that are extremely tough to leave] that step out just to get basic emotional needs met. 

There are people in marriages that are 'fine', in the sense that they had no idea of what they are missing until they meet someone else. I wonder if something like this is more common. Now, people will say that the person feeling the temptation to step out should have a conversation with their spouse first, but what if the issue is something that can hardly be fixed. Maybe conversations with this other person just flow better than conversations with their spouse. 

It does take AN AWFUL LOT of integrity for someone to say _'screw temptation I am going to spend my one and only life on this planet being faithful even though I can really see being much happier together with this other person'_ or even _'I am just going to ask for a divorce and break my family up because I am too tempted to cheat'_. Hardly anyone has that type of integrity. So they take a path with a lot less resistance and cheat. Sad to say.

Paradoxically, I am going to guess that this is part of what makes cheating so painful. As much as we try to convince ourselves that 'she/he is just fundamentally broken' deep down we suspect that this may not be true. So we take our partner's straying personally.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Imajerk17 said:


> There are people in seriously dysfunctional marriages [that are extremely tough to leave] that step out just to get basic emotional needs met.


I would agree that this kind of environment may make someone more likely to cheat that otherwise wouldn't. It's the same kind of environment that makes it more likely to become a drug or alcohol addict. When a person is in severe mental distress, their brain seeks relief, and sometimes it does so in a destructive manner. That doesn't make it okay or unavoidable, but we should understand that it's a common way for humans to react to stressful situations. 

Although I feel I would 100% never have an affair, I'm not sure I could make that same claim when I was under a tremendous amount of stress because I would be in a different mental state. Imagine being in a terrible marriage, have financial problems that make it feel impossible to leave, kids with behavioral issues that would get worse from divorce, and you run into your good looking HS crush who is ecstatic to see you and flirts heavily. As much as I can sit here and say I would never cheat, I'm not so confident I would resist if I was actually in that situation. My depressed and stressed brain may not have the same resolve that I do now. But realizing that about myself hopefully means I'll take steps to prevent it before I get to the "I never meant to do it. It just happened!" phase.

But even if someone first cheats only in that extreme situation, I believe it makes it more likely for them to cheat again. The first time they had their moral resistance to work through, but the second time that would be less. Their brain would remember how good it felt when they cheated. It got to feel the joy of lust and it relieved all the stress. I believe that makes it easier to cheat again. Their brain starts to think of cheating as a stress reliever. If the cheater doesn't take steps to recognize this weakness and continually ensure it doesn't happen again, it's probably going to happen again.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I believe in redemption, but only through Christ and not until we are dead. While I am on earth, I will be a sinner. Okay, what does that mean? What am I calling myself?

First off, I will always be human and be inadequate at times. Secondly, I am going to sin again and again. I can't help it. I am not perfect. Hopefully, they will be minor things, like white lies or... I don't know, anything could come up. 

A liar, because I lied in the past and I may again. Most were little white lies, but a couple were small lies meant for myself. They didn't help me. I felt it was the only way. I was young. I tried the wrong way. I am still a liar because I lied a couple of times years and years ago. However, I expect everyone to be like me and wait for proof before believing. Life has taught me that. I do not trust as easily as I did, but I take small chances. I learn from them, most times. 

Yes, I asked forgiveness and rarely tell, even a white lie. I have always been discovered. I refuse to lie. I've learned I am not good at it. 

I am still considering myself a liar, inside. I do not punish myself. I strive to tell the truth in all things. Sometimes, I go too far with an explanation for the sake of truth. 

I think it is important to remember the BS is allowed to choose who s/he wants to marry or have a relationship with. If a socalled former AP or WS wants to marry a BS, but not talk about their past, I think it is a lie and proves that person is not redeemed. 

If I cannot accept who I am, and the consequences for what I have done, even after believing I am changed, what did I learn?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Of you cannot understand the distinction between "being a sinner" as a human and being labeled permanently for one sin, I'm not sure how to discuss this.

BTW, most literal Bible scholars would say that once we have been.made new in Christ, we are saints. That doesnt mean we never sin again, but our identity is new.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Of you cannot understand the distinction between "being a sinner" as a human and being labeled permanently for one sin, I'm not sure how to discuss this.
> 
> BTW, most literal Bible scholars would say that once we have been.made new in Christ, we are saints. That doesnt mean we never sin again, but our identity is new.


My thoughts were, I do not want someone who has cheated even once. That is my right, but, how could I know? I never will. 

I label myself, as others should, also, for their own benefit. 

Most literal bible scholars are mistaken. Accepting Christ only means, from then on, we have a chance to get to heaven. I cannot sin and not ask for forgiveness through a sorrowful heart and repenting life, and place my trust in my acceptance alone. Likewise, I must be forgiving, which I am not, and treat others with love as Christ did. I cannot. I am not Him. I must ask to be forgiven for my failings and weaknesses. 

It isn't a matter of me misunderstanding, or you. It is a matter of knowledge of self and acceptance of that, for my own benefit, throughout life.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Most literal bible scholars are mistaken. "

Sorry, I'll take their interpretation of salvation.

But you're right about repentance. If we have no sorrow over our sin, then we are not truly repentant.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Take Christ's words, not some scholar, nor mine.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Roman 6:23, Roman's 5;8, Roman's 10:9-10, Ephrsians 2;8-9, I John 5:11-13, II Cor. 5:17, I John 1:9.....

More?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Roman 6:23, Roman's 5;8, Roman's 10:9-10, Ephrsians 2;8-9, I John 5:11-13, II Cor. 5:17, I John 1:9.....
> 
> More?


Yes, please show me Jesus words as I mentioned, not those of an interpreter writing a letter that specifically addresses an issue or issues with a specific group of Christians.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Roman 6:23, Roman's 5;8, Roman's 10:9-10, Ephrsians 2;8-9, I John 5:11-13, II Cor. 5:17, I John 1:9.....
> ...


 Perhaps you should read John chapter 1 verse 1… in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. Then skipped a verse 14. The word became flesh and dwelt among us.

All of The Bible is God's word. The fact that some publisher put Jesus words in red do not Mean those are the only words that count. If you do not believe that all of The Bible is God's word, then we are not coming from the same direction, so there is no point in discussing.

However, if you really want to know, why don't you check out the way Jesus treated the adulterous woman and the woman at the well. Hint… he didn't keep them labeled for the rest of their lives.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Perhaps you should read John chapter 1 verse 1… in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God. Then skipped a verse 14. The word became flesh and dwelt among us.
> 
> All of The Bible is God's word. The fact that some publisher put Jesus words in red do not Mean those are the only words that count. If you do not believe that all of The Bible is God's word, then we are not coming from the same direction, so there is no point in discussing.
> 
> However, if you really want to know, why don't you check out the way Jesus treated the adulterous woman and the woman at the well. Hint… he didn't keep them labeled for the rest of their lives.


The New Testament was added by the Catholic church. It wasn't a part of the Jewish bible, which is what that meant. 

Paul accepted, all his life, that he worked against Jesus and was remorseful all his life. 

If you do not believe the above sentence, you do not know your bible and only read words and interpret it through what you are told. 

Surely, we are, have been, and will always be on differing sides in this.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Are you judging others?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I hope so ….its neat to see people judge each other and piss each other off when it come to religion.
Soon wars start and the insults really start to flying


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

let the Crusades begin!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

T/J over...


I think a 12 step program would be helpful for a wayward...but just like any program one has to face the fact they need a program for a problem.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

the guy said:


> let the Crusades begin!


They've been over for 500 years. But it was a nice, predictable atheist potshot 🤣🤣🤣🤣


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

the guy said:


> T/J over...
> 
> 
> I think a 12 step program would be helpful for a wayward...but just like any program one has to face the fact they need a program for a problem.


Exactly.

Funny, though, I know waywards who have. They've worked VERY hard.

Their problem years later is that no one else wants to let go of the magic Trump card.

It's why Nathaniel Hawthorne's book is still so relevant.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Only God know how much I want to keep T/Jing...but to stay on point of the thread....I'll have to check out that book once I learn how to read.

I'm about 8yrs out of infidelity and my old lady went cold turkey after like 13yrs of phucking strange (a lot of strange). But I think when a wayward is that broken and willing to get their shyt together they gotta start some were.


thanks again for the reference regarding the author.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Funny, though, I know waywards who have. They've worked VERY hard.
> 
> ...


Too much generalization. 

Lot's of men don't care. Those that do are not compatible.


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Increasingly, I am beginning to believe there should be a one step program for cheaters. It's goodbye!


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I guess I had no idea there were so many sinless people walking the earth....or that this one sin was the only one that matters.

I wonder if we should permanently sequester PUA guys who treat women like bedpost notches.

The best predictor of future is past. Right?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

2ntnuf said:


> How do you get to the point of even discussing it in the midst of... what was it called? I can't remember the name for it, but it's the intense feeling of attraction and oneness afforded by oxytocin and several other brain chemicals.


I believe limerence is the word you are looking for. I prefer the older words coveting or lust, though I think that is a better word in the context of adultery.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Funny, though, I know waywards who have. They've worked VERY hard.
> 
> ...


Is it a Trump card or is it that it doesn't go away? 

That's the thing. I am always struck by the ones who years later like in their 60 and 70 all of the sudden are right there again, like it just happened. This seems to happen quite a lot. Usually they rug swept but even some who didn't. My theory on this is they had this mistaken belief that it would go away eventually. You seem lots of people on sites like SI really struggle with this even years later. And some very awful people encourage them to continue to struggle not telling them the truth. It's probably not going to go away. This is probably the best it's going to get. 

Lots of people just don't realize this as exemplified by the consistent post about, is this normal, is it going to get better, and such. My theory is they get to a certain age and they realize [No it's not going to go away] this is it. Then they realize they wasted a good part of their life on a dream that was destined to fail. I think that is also a very hard thing to deal with especially at that age because most of the time it's too late. I really think this is what's going on, is the typical realization that people tend to go through at the latter part of their life realizing their mortality, but coupled with the fact that the primary relationship they have been in has been fundamentally unfair, and has caused them pain for a substantial part of their life. Now it's too late. Very sad indeed. 

It's not said enough. As far as I can tell for most only way to totally recover from infidelity is to be with someone else. That doesn't mean that some rare people can't have a good happy life if they stay together. However if your goal is to have it be inconsequential to your romantic life, you need to be in a romance with someone who hasn't done it to you. Even then it still will affect your life because it has consequences that are life lasting. But it will be inconsequential to you current relationship, assuming you heal. 

Speaking of that, I was just reading a post on another site that talked about justice being when the BS can forgive the WS and they they can build a better marriage then they had before. It sounds so nice, but it struck me how terribly reckless and tone death that advice is. And of course that is a site where the rules restrict any any voice of reason. The truth is the vast majority of marriages with infidelity in them are not going to become better marriages. 

For one thing it takes two people to do that and the person who cheated is generally very broken and has no desire to do the kind of self critical work it takes to even begin to become a good spouse to work towards a better marriage. That is not even talking about all the damage that is done to the BS from the betrayal itself. Again that response was just plain reckless but it is a common one. Still all the people reading it who are trying to reconcile and still just as miserable as ever will feel defeated and just keep on working. Like beating their heads against a brick wall. It's just wrong. 

So back to your post, I get it that sometimes people use it as a Trump card, but then again when it comes to most slights in marriage this one is pretty much the topper. Like it seems if you spouse cheats they shouldn't bring up the toothpaste tube. Also though there is a very good chance the spouse that was cheated on is still suffering or is just disillusioned with their spouse and doesn't think of them the same way. That's the danger. When you abuse someones love for you there is a good chance it will die, even if the marriage doesn't.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Is it a Trump card or is it that it doesn't go away?
> 
> That's the thing. I am always struck by the ones who years later like in their 60 and 70 all of the sudden are right there again, like it just happened. This seems to happen quite a lot. Usually they rug swept but even some who didn't. My theory on this is they had this mistaken belief that it would go away eventually. You seem lots of people on sites like SI really struggle with this even years later. And some very awful people encourage them to continue to struggle not telling them the truth. It's probably not going to go away. This is probably the best it's going to get.
> 
> ...


Yes. Another issue that sometimes comes up is this. The BS must change to allow for no infidelity. Isn't that strange? It isn't done due to the BS. It is done because the WS doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing and divorce. When it is blamed on the BS, it's like adding insult to injury. Like, "I abused you because you are a ****". That's someone you want to stay with? So, you abused me, and now you want me to accept that I forced you to harm me deeply and now I have make changes in my life, so you won't do that again? What the hell? Isn't that the kind of thing a wife beater does?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

As expected, the point was missed.

I think I'm on the way out. Theres just nothing encouraging about being here anymore. And I'm not even as WS!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> As expected, the point was missed.
> 
> I think I'm on the way out. Theres just nothing encouraging about being here anymore. And I'm not even as WS!


Your point wasn't missed. I was bringing so context to why it might be the way it is. You don't have to agree with me.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

sorry... wrong thread


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

wilson said:


> There are many, many stories of infidelity here, and one thing that is very common is that the wayward spouses are often unable or struggle to control their carnal urges. While it is true that some cheaters are irredeemable and are fundamentally broken, many other cheaters seem like they are acting as if they are under the influence of drugs. And because of brain chemistry, that is true in some sense. Their brain is releasing large amounts of hormones that are similar to addictive drugs, and many people will struggle to resist those desires.
> 
> A lot of the stories of WS have similarities to people with drug and alcohol addictions. People may act completely irrationally and throw away good jobs, family relationships, financial security and everything they hold dear in order to maintain their addiction. That's a similar situation to people who have affairs. Even when the WS knows there will be severe consequences, they still take the risk. So that makes me wonder if there should be a 12-step program for a recovering WS. In case you're not aware, here are the steps used in many addiction programs:
> 
> ...


The "flaw" exists in us all. Anyone who believes they are immune to fall to any urge or temptation is a fool.

People who don't fall are those who understand their weak points and guard against it.

Mrs. Conan and I have had a very difficult few years.

We recently had a 3 day run of fighting and I went out to get some shopping done.

The market I was in started playing "Brown eyed girl" and I started singing along only to be surprised as a female voice joined mine perfectly. I looked up into the eyes of a very cute woman in tight leggings.

We both smiled and the immediate attraction was huge! I was in serious trouble because of how much heartache I have had over the last years and the recent fighting. Here was the very attractive promise of acceptance and intimacy that we all need and I was starving for.

I walked away shaking and made like I was looking at some kambucha.

She appeared right beside me and in her wonderful voice advised me that a certain kambucha combined with a certain alcohol tasted wonderful and wondered if I would like her to show me how?

I thanked her, barely able to resist and I'm sure I was awkward, and left, almost running out of the store because I was a fraction of a centimeter from letting her take me home.

I wanted to and I honestly needed the intimacy, joy and acceptance she was offering.

Mrs. C and I are still working and, several days later, we just had a great night capped with great sex.

Mrs. Conan is no slouch, she looks like a playboy bunny in several poses including on all fours, and the woman in the store might have been a little less attractive but she was friendly, open and inviting at a low point for me.

I don't know how low I would have to be in my heart to cheat, I hope I never find out, but it is certainly possible.

I know all the answers having a history in counseling and it has still nearly happened to me on more than one occasion.

I am making no excuses for cheating. I am saying, however, that all people who have strayed cannot be painted with the same brush or even put in the same category.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

You can have a 40 step program, what's the point? The whole issue of marital infidelity in bound in CONSEQUENCE, more correctly NO CONSEQUENCE. Your WW is cheating on you and is caught. Yeah, you can divorce her. What is the consequence for her? 

Oh, she is now single... how does that impact her, she was Fing another guy already, remember. 
She is shamed. Hardly, she will just re-write a little history paint you as the bad guy. 
She gets custody of the kids and the house.
She gets 1/2 your pay for alimony.
She gets 1/2 your retirement savings. 

BTW, you new residence is a Single-Wide, warming up a can of soup for dinner.

Everybody wants to address some form of recover program solution to infidelity. The root of the problem is Marriage.
If a man looked at marriage the way of a Business Investment in regards to Risk/Reward he would run for the hills.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

RWB said:


> You can have a 40 step program, what's the point? The whole issue of marital infidelity in bound in CONSEQUENCE, more correctly NO CONSEQUENCE. Your WW is cheating on you and is caught. Yeah, you can divorce her. What is the consequence for her?
> 
> Oh, she is now single... how does that impact her, she was Fing another guy already, remember.
> She is shamed. Hardly, she will just re-write a little history paint you as the bad guy.
> ...


You seem healthy


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> As expected, the point was missed.
> 
> I think I'm on the way out. Theres just nothing encouraging about being here anymore. And I'm not even as WS!


What was the point of the thread other than for the WS to go to group to discuss their feelings and how to control themselves and continue being faithful?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

RWB said:


> You can have a 40 step program, what's the point? The whole issue of marital infidelity in bound in CONSEQUENCE, more correctly NO CONSEQUENCE. Your WW is cheating on you and is caught. Yeah, you can divorce her. What is the consequence for her?
> 
> Oh, she is now single... how does that impact her, she was Fing another guy already, remember.
> She is shamed. Hardly, she will just re-write a little history paint you as the bad guy.
> ...


I think the point is, once a couple decides they want to stay married, and have passed some threshold of counseling that holds some small promise of sustained reconciliation, it may be wise for a WS or FWS, if you will, to continue talking in a group setting with an educated professional in charge to help them identify and work through issues that arise before they become irritating enough to cause another breakdown. 

I have to agree with you, but the question isn't a bad one. Some folks want to make it through adulterous episodes in their marriage, since they realise they will just be up against learning to accept a dating world of mostly brokenness and debauchery or a completely celibate lifestyle... or a marriage like most, with infidelity in it's past. 

It's the devil you know scenario.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

2ntnuf said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > As expected, the point was missed.
> ...


This has to be sarcasm.....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> This has to be sarcasm.....





2ntnuf said:


> I think the point is, once a couple decides they want to stay married, and have passed some threshold of counseling that holds some small promise of sustained reconciliation, it may be wise for a WS or FWS, if you will, to continue talking in a group setting with an educated professional in charge to help them identify and work through issues that arise before they become irritating enough to cause another breakdown.
> 
> I have to agree with you, but the question isn't a bad one. Some folks want to make it through adulterous episodes in their marriage, since they realise they will just be up against learning to accept a dating world of mostly brokenness and debauchery or a completely celibate lifestyle... or a marriage like most, with infidelity in it's past.
> 
> It's the devil you know scenario.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

personofinterest said:


> You seem healthy


Pithy... After 20+ years of marriage, kids in tow, what wisdom do you impart?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

You really can't be addicted to a self produced bodily hormone... Like sex addiction is mostly believed to not exist or be misdiagnosed for what's something more like BPD or OCD.....


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> You really can't be addicted to a self produced bodily hormone... Like sex addiction is mostly believed to not exist or be misdiagnosed for what's something more like BPD or OCD.....


"Sex addiction" has been the new go-to excuse for men for a while now when they're caught with their pants down. And lots of women jump on that nonsense excuse and hold onto it for dear life because it's easier to think their darling serial cheater husband has an _'addiction'_ he can't control than to face the fact that he's just a pig with no morals and a huge desire for sexual variety.

I think Tiger Woods started this nonsense. Gosh and golly, a pro athlete cheating with every woman he can get his hands on??? _Unheard of!!!! _He *must *be a sex addict! LOL. Give me a damned break. It was a good attempt on his part to try to absolve himself from pretty much what MOST athletes are doing, but his wife still divorced his serial cheating ass anyway. I'm willing to bet Mr. Woods - the poor 'sex addict' _victim_ - hasn't been to a sex addict meeting since the day he paid off his wife in divorce court. What a dog and pony show that was. 

But, his little scam paved the way for lots of men who now have this pitiful excuse when they get caught with their pants down and women are happy to believe it. And most garden variety therapists are only too happy to slap this misdiagnosis on any cheater who walks through their door - even though they're not qualified to even *MAKE* that diagnosis. 

It's become the new "Get out of jail free" card for men.

Strangely enough, *women* who get caught cheating are usually never called sex addicts. Even though some of them have cheated with multiple men, you still rarely if ever see that ridiculous accusation being slapped on them.

Hmmm. How very, very odd.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The modern mindset of addiction is an outgrowth of our societie is need to not be accountable for anything. Blame mommy, blame poverty, blame addiction. As long as I have something to blame I don't have to look in the mirror and face the truth about myself.

And if I label it as a life long disease, then I don't have to actually fix it. Because I cant. I'm stuck this way. Poor me.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> The "flaw" exists in us all. Anyone who believes they are immune to fall to any urge or temptation is a fool.
> 
> People who don't fall are those who understand their weak points and guard against it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your honesty and empathy.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I don't think we need to get too focused on whether or not cheating is an addiction. There are many compulsive behaviors that people struggle to overcome even though they are not addictions in the classical sense. People struggle with things like food, video games, internet use, and so on that aren't actual addictions. However, the methods for behavior modification to overcome those compulsions can be very similar to addictions.

No doubt the WS wants to label it an addiction, as it allows them to absolve themselves of responsibility. But even if they want to call it an addiction, that's all the more reason to have a 12-step program for them to commit to.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Most of the wayward spouses I know resist the idea of an affair being an addiction. Especially the truly remorseful ones. They see it as a horrible choice that they made that needs to be rectified. I think a lot of people want to label it an addiction because it gives it a permanents. It's ironic to me that the same societee that embraces doing whatever feels good and not judging others no matter what also picks and chooses 1 or 2 behaviors from which a person is unredeemable. We really cannot have it both ways without cognitive dissonance. If everyone should be free to do anything they want, we can't then turn around and ostracize the 1 or 2 things we hate. Personally, I think they do anything you want culture is stupid and immoral. So I don't have any cognitive dissonance. However, I do believe people can change. If I don't want the world to permanently label me for a badd choice I made years or decades ago, then I don't need to do it to someone else.

Bottom line, there are certain personality types that relish having what they perceive to be the moral high ground. Those are the personality types that will never be able to reconcile. Those are also the personality types that probably will not achieve real remorse if they cheat. It takes humility to face your horrible choice and do something about it. It also takes humility to extend forgiveness and redemption to another person.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I think something based on the 12 step idea could definitely be useful. I don't know that I could say "should" because I am resistant to that word in general.
> 
> A WS DEFINITELY needs to do way more than cry and promise not to do it again!


*But much like social and psychological counseling, the WS has to make a concerted effort to want to go, heartfully apologize to all of the offended, and then want to exercise improvement!

Otherwise, it's fruitless!*


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> *But much like social and psychological counseling, the WS has to make a concerted effort to want to go and want to improve!
> 
> Otherwise, it's fruitless!*


That is why I believe remorse is paramount. There is a school of thought that says remorse isn't necessary as long as they take behavioral steps and check all the boxes.

I don't want any part of someone who will follow the regimen but whose HEART has not changed. That is just ridiculous.

It's like the druggie whose parents force them to go to rehab. They'll dry out long enough to graduate and be allowed back home, but no real change is taking place.

Real change DOES come from the inside, no matter what a guru says.

Is a WS is TRULY remorseful and owns what they do, they will move heaven and earth to be different and help their spouse heal, even if the only route to healing is to give the BS an uncontested divorce where they don't ask for anything.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree that forcing someone to go to rehab is generally a waste, but it's not always the case that the reformed person can be motivated enough to stay clean on their own. I'm sure there are addicts who wake up one day, decide to never use again, and never relapse, but that's pretty rare. The recovering addict will be more successful if they are following some kind of program which gives them some structure to be successful. And even with the program, they will likely slip up many times.

It's probably unrealistic to expect a WS, addict, or alcoholic to be so motivated to change that they can effect that change all on their own. It's great if it happens, but that strategy will almost certainly end in failure. If they are strong enough to accomplish that, then likely they wouldn't have gotten into the situation in the first place. 

One of the fatal parts of reconciling after an affair is that the trust is gone with the BS who is the other part of the relationship. With other negative behaviors like addiction, alcoholism, kleptomania, bipolar, eating disorders, etc., the healthy spouse still has that strong emotional connection and is motivated to help the troubled spouse get better. But in an affair, the BS is dealing with loss of trust and filled with hate and rage, which means they won't make a good motivator to help the WS change. Having an external program helps with this, since the BS is often seeking retribution and will be making punitive requests. If the BS is seeking their pound of flesh, their requests likely won't be conducive to reconciliation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

wilson said:


> I agree that forcing someone to go to rehab is generally a waste, but it's not always the case that the reformed person can be motivated enough to stay clean on their own. I'm sure there are addicts who wake up one day, decide to never use again, and never relapse, but that's pretty rare. The recovering addict will be more successful if they are following some kind of program which gives them some structure to be successful. And even with the program, they will likely slip up many times.
> 
> It's probably unrealistic to expect a WS, addict, or alcoholic to be so motivated to change that they can effect that change all on their own. It's great if it happens, but that strategy will almost certainly end in failure. If they are strong enough to accomplish that, then likely they wouldn't have gotten into the situation in the first place.
> 
> One of the fatal parts of reconciling after an affair is that the trust is gone with the BS who is the other part of the relationship. With other negative behaviors like addiction, alcoholism, kleptomania, bipolar, eating disorders, etc., the healthy spouse still has that strong emotional connection and is motivated to help the troubled spouse get better. But in an affair, the BS is dealing with loss of trust and filled with hate and rage, which means they won't make a good motivator to help the WS change. Having an external program helps with this, since the BS is often seeking retribution and will be making punitive requests. If the BS is seeking their pound of flesh, their requests likely won't be conducive to reconciliation.



The key component of all of this is still the WS WANTING to change and receive help. Force a program on someone and it won't last.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Most of the wayward spouses I know resist the idea of an affair being an addiction. Especially the truly remorseful ones. They see it as a horrible choice that they made that needs to be rectified. I think a lot of people want to label it an addiction because it gives it a permanents. It's ironic to me that the same societee that embraces doing whatever feels good and not judging others no matter what also picks and chooses 1 or 2 behaviors from which a person is unredeemable. We really cannot have it both ways without cognitive dissonance. If everyone should be free to do anything they want, we can't then turn around and ostracize the 1 or 2 things we hate. Personally, I think they do anything you want culture is stupid and immoral. So I don't have any cognitive dissonance. However, I do believe people can change. If I don't want the world to permanently label me for a badd choice I made years or decades ago, then I don't need to do it to someone else.
> 
> *Bottom line*, there are certain personality types that relish having what they perceive to be the moral high ground. Those are the personality types that will never be able to reconcile. Those are also the personality types that probably will not achieve real remorse if they cheat. It takes humility to face your horrible choice and do something about it. It also takes humility to extend forgiveness and redemption to another person.


I'm picturing you reciting Austin 3:16....and that made me chuckle.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I'm picturing you reciting Austin 3:16....and that made me chuckle.


Austin? I'm slow, and I wanna chuckle too


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> The key component of all of this is still the WS WANTING to change and receive help. Force a program on someone and it won't last.


It seems we're in agreement. But even if the WS wants to change, there is little in the way of guidance as to how they should manage it. Other than "don't do it again", "go to therapy", and "be transparent", it's not clear how the WS makes the necessary changes to ensure they don't make the same mistake again. It's the same as telling an alcoholic "Don't drink again". That's easy to say, but it alone doesn't lead to the changes necessary to last in the long-term.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

wilson said:


> It seems we're in agreement. But even if the WS wants to change, there is little in the way of guidance as to how they should manage it. Other than "don't do it again", "go to therapy", and "be transparent", it's not clear how the WS makes the necessary changes to ensure they don't make the same mistake again. It's the same as telling an alcoholic "Don't drink again". That's easy to say, but it alone doesn't lead to the changes necessary to last in the long-term.


I agree.

I have often wished there was such a thing as a forum specifically for WS who want to change and stay the course. I don't mean a section on a site - I mean an entire site. One where only WS post. Because that would be the only way for the focus to be on the changes THEY need to make rather than a place for everyone who still wants to grind out THEIR stuff to have a sounding board (or punching bag).

There are lots of BS who can offer amazing advice to a remorseful WS who want to save the marriage. But for every 5 of those, there is a louder, meaner, more self-righteous one who is still spinning out hate from their own experience. It might be cathartic for them, but it isn't helpful for anyone else really.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

There is... anyone can take those steps and apply them to any issue they may have.

That's why there's many programs that have the same solution. When anyone honestly goes through the steps they can find out many, many things about the way they have been participating - and how they can participate moving forward in a better manner.

That why you will see:

Alcoholics Anonymous
Al-Anon
Gamblers Anonymous
Narcotics Anonymous

... the list goes on and on


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't get this talk about addiction. I don't remember it being mentioned. If it is because it is similar to a 12 step program, then I get how it is misunderstood.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't get this talk about addiction. I don't remember it being mentioned. If it is because it is similar to a 12 step program, then I get how it is misunderstood.


Some people are sex addicts and some are love addicts... and they are two different things.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Beach123 said:


> Some people are sex addicts and some are love addicts... and they are two different things.


Where did that come up? I missed it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't get this talk about addiction. I don't remember it being mentioned. If it is because it is similar to a 12 step program, then I get how it is misunderstood.


I think it is because most people who attend a 12 step program are there because of an addiction they can't overcome on their own. The very first one was AA, and the other programs used the same steps with some word subsitutions.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Araucaria said:


> I think it is because most people who attend a 12 step program are there because of an addiction they can't overcome on their own. The very first one was AA, and the other programs used the same steps with some word subsitutions.


I see. No, I think it would just be in the form of a 12 step program. Doesn't mean someone is addicted. It's just a way of continuous reinforcement of good behavior and a way to learn greater awareness of triggers that might lead to infidelity. It would cause the WS, whether husband or wife, to recognize when things aren't going well and help them by discussing how best to approach their spouse and get whatever is bothering out and make changes where needed. This program would help, not only to change the thinking of the FWS, but also help recognize and discuss issues the FBS has. 

It would be an early warning system that, when it doesn't work, would suggest marital counseling. I would think, with time and practice, it would be a great help to those struggling. In combination with therapy, I think it would be fantastic.


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