# Am I being selfish and awful? Outside views please!



## boardwalk (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi everyone!

I really need some outside views on a situation in my marriage - am I being unreasonable, stupid and selfish or am I right in feeling this way? Here it is (it sounds silly and trivial but it is a big deal in our relationship!):

My husband works in a job that requires him to wear shirts, so he uses a dry cleaner... His hours are fairly flexible although long - some mornings he doesn't start until 10 or 11am. I own a business and work from home. We don't have kids.

H drops his clothes off at the dry cleaner and expects me to pick them. Which I have been doing for the past 2 years. Usually I tried to do it around other errands I had to run.

Lately since I have commitments on a Tues and Thurs I told him to time it so I can pick it up on my way home, on those days. Other days I work all day at home or don't go past the cleaners at all, so this way it's like a schedule. 

He seemed to agree with this. But still he just dropped them off whenever and expected me to pick them up on a Friday, and seemed to have totally forgot I mentioned the Tues and Thurs. So I reminded him. And he got angry. Very angry.

He accused me of being selfish, that it was just a tiny favor he asks of me is that too hard? That it's 'just around the corner' and I should just do it, that I only think of myself. That he won't have any shirts for work if I don't pick them up, that he shouldn't have to time it so that I can pick them up when I want - that's too hard for him etc etc.

When I try to say it's not that I don't want to pick them up, simply time it so I can do it on my way home.... no way! I'm so selfish! Why can't I just do it? Having to time it doesn't work for him etc etc.

He doesn't listen, the more I say the angrier he becomes. Then, he expects it to be done and of course I do it because it's not worth the hassle or the way he makes me feel - selfish and ungrateful. 

And when I do, it's a thank you and 'you could have taken the bags off'. Oh and I left them in the car the other week while I did other things and they got a bit wrinkled - haven't heard the end of it for the past few days. 

I'm sorry this has turned out longer than I planned, but I could really use some outside perspective. I actually find it really upsetting - especially because I don't know if I am being unreasonable or it is ok for me to put this 'condition' on it? I don't feel it's a favor he is asking, it's a demand. But he doesn't see it like that.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Easy solution: Don't pick up his shirts. He can pick them up when he drops off the next batch.

He's the selfish one, IMO - if he wants a favor (which this is), then he should make it convenient for you. Otherwise, it's an imposition, and one he doesn't appreciate you doing anyway.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

Have his anger issues appeared under any other circumstances? It seems like a really bizarre reaction on his part without a history of anger. 

You're not being unreasonable. The fact that you had to come here and ask people if you're being unreasonable instead of trusting your own judgement makes me worry that he's manipulative and has messed with your ability to trust your own reactions. Or if this is totally out of the blue for him, maybe something else is going on?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Nope you are not being selfish. It's his choice to have a dry cleaner do his shirts. He could do them at home. It's easy to do one's own shirts.

As someone above said, he could pick up the clean ones when the drops off the dirty ones. Is the dry cleaners on his way to work? Or does he have to go out of his way for this?

What is sounds like is that he does not own enough shirts for his the schedule he has set for drop-off/pick-up. Were he my husband, I'd go out and buy him another week's worth of shirts. Then he would never run out of clean shirts if he keeps to a schedule of drop-off/pick-up at the same time.

Now about his angry outbursts. There is zero excuse for him treating you this way. My guess is that the shirts are just an excuse for him to blow up at you. If he did not want an excuse to blow up at you he'd have gone out and brought enough shirts to solve his own problem.

My guess is that he feels that you are selfish and do not love him enough. This shirt fiasco is simply symbolic of this. It's a talisman that he uses to express his feelings. Remove the shirt problem (as suggested above) and he will find something else to use to accuse you of being selfish and not loving him.

Get the extra shirt. Tell him to pick-up/drop-off at the same time. And watch for what the next thing is uses to beat up on you.


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

northernlights said:


> Have his anger issues appeared under any other circumstances? It seems like a really bizarre reaction on his part without a history of anger.
> 
> You're not being unreasonable. The fact that you had to come here and ask people if you're being unreasonable instead of trusting your own judgement makes me worry that he's manipulative and has messed with your ability to trust your own reactions. Or if this is totally out of the blue for him, maybe something else is going on?


^^^^ I was wondering the same thing. 

If this is an isolated incident, maybe he really feels that you're being unreasonable and expressed himself poorly. Maybe he thinks that as you work at home, and as the dry cleaners is around the corner, you should be able to pick up the clothes -- just as someone who works at home would have more time to go grocery shopping, etc. because he or she is more flexible in terms of scheduling things (no office environment)..... 

If this is the only issue I'd just pick up the clothes, not leave them in the car anymore, but say that this issue didn't justify his disrespectful and aggressive behavior and that it had better not happen again.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Congratulations to you and your husband on a successful marriage.


----------



## boltam (Oct 14, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> Congratulations to you and your husband on a successful marriage.


That wasn't very nice.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

boltam said:


> That wasn't very nice.


But kind of funny.

I hope your husband kills it in the sack because he doesn't have much going for him in the personality department.

Stop picking up his shirts. Your not his little slave b1tch are you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

Tell him to find a dry cleaner that does pick up and drop off, problem solved.


----------



## boltam (Oct 14, 2015)

kristin2349 said:


> Tell him to find a dry cleaner that does pick up and drop off, problem solved.



The problem is in no way solved.

The problem has nothing to do with the dry cleaning and anyone who posted on this thread about fixing the problem by changing the arrangement regarding dropping off and picking up the shirts has completely missed the boat and I'd go further and say they probably have real communication issues in their own relationships.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

My comment was neither meant to be mean nor insulting. I have read many many posts on this board and if the worst problem this poster has is shirts and dry cleaning then I would put her marriage in the top percentile of success stories on TAM.

OP,
My intent was to cause you to step back and look at the big picture and reassess, that is all. Feel free to completely ignore my post and continue work on your mole hill. In any event, my congratulations were sincere.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Imagine a genius female engineer that just like you could not deal with her husband's fussy dry cleaning logistics. 

Here are the results of her mid-life-crisis-temper-tantrum-passive-aggressive-fight with her husband:

*SWASH* 










Like your husband, he probably says a quick thanks and then finds something else trivial to complain about.

Cheers,
Badsanta


----------



## boltam (Oct 14, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> My comment was neither meant to be mean nor insulting. I have read many many posts on this board and if the worst problem this poster has is shirts and dry cleaning


Their worst problem is NOT his shirts and the dry cleaning.


----------



## boardwalk (Oct 17, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I agree it's not just about the shirts which is why I came here, it's very confusing that such a 'simple' problem seems to be such a big deal. I admitted it seems trivial but it certainly doesn't feel that way. 

I've already tried changing the arrangement (letting him know what days I go by the drycleaners so it makes sense), but, as mentioned, this is what makes me selfish and ridiculous. Any other attempt like him picking up the same day as drop off I'm afraid would be the same reaction. 

As for the anger, yes he does have outbursts. The latest was when I caught him watching porn (it actually came on in the via bluetooth through his phone which was kind of funny), and got angry myself - he cheated over a year ago and porn to me is now a violation of trust. Plus, he never initiates sex.

Anyway, he reacted to my anger about the porn with a 2hour rant which included, again, how selfish I am, how controlling I am, how he doesn't love me, and gave me a week to get out of the house. The next day, he is extremely apologetic and says he doesn't mean anything when he's angry, he loves me yadda yadda. 

These angry outbursts are always in reaction to something I'm upset about. They don't come out of nowhere. But the drycleaning thing? There is something there that doesn't feel right and to me, almost feels worse than the incident above. The favor vs imposition comment was clarifying (thanks Married but happy).


----------



## IamSomebody (Nov 21, 2014)

boardwalk said:


> Thank you everyone for your replies. I agree it's not just about the shirts which is why I came here, it's very confusing that such a 'simple' problem seems to be such a big deal. I admitted it seems trivial but it certainly doesn't feel that way.
> 
> I've already tried changing the arrangement (letting him know what days I go by the drycleaners so it makes sense), but, as mentioned, this is what makes me selfish and ridiculous. Any other attempt like him picking up the same day as drop off I'm afraid would be the same reaction.
> 
> ...



Ah, the truth coms out. Your H doesn't love you, you are a convenient little slave. I'll bet he doesn't lift a finger around the house because you are "home all day" even though you are working from home.

Talk to a counselor, alone, to see why your self-esteem is such that you will allow such treatment of you. Then talk to a very shark-like divorce attorney to find out your rights.

I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't cheating again, or at least thinking about it.

IamSmebody


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Yes a totally different dynamic than shirts. Cheating and porn and anger. Why did you post about shirts and dry cleaning?
Your H indeed has narcissistic tendencies if he is not a full blown narcissist. It is all about him and as you posted in your original post it is easier for you to just do it than to fight about it. Was this your attitude about the A?


----------



## boardwalk (Oct 17, 2015)

NoChoice, I left him after the affair but decided to give the marriage a try after working with a counsellor, my thinking was it was better to try than to regret leaving prematurely,, to work through it and even if in the end it didn't work - I could walk away saying I tried. I believe this was the right decision. 

He made some changes - including his entire career which made him a bit calmer... I don't ever bring up the affair/trust issue anymore since it thrown back in my face, that I "will never get over it and always hold it over him." 

Your quote: "It is all about him and as you posted in your original post it is easier for you to just do it than to fight about it." Made me think... because, well it's true ( In the end, I pick up the shirts when he wants anyway, it's just expected. And it IS easier just to do it, lord knows it would be a disaster if I didn't (never a physical disaster, but the simmering anger and underlying implications of my selfish ungratefulness would be unpleasant).

I posted about the shirts because I am (was) truly confused about whether I was acting unreasonable/selfish about saying I would pick them up on certain days, which would simply mean a slight effort on his behalf to time his drop off. It was upsetting. Ugh. 

I've made an appt with a counsellor next week, I was interested in marriage counselling but right now, I think it is best by myself, as you say IamSomebody. 

Thanks for your replies  It is such a relief getting outside views. And, to be honest, VERY helpful thinking through them.


----------



## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

End it.

After cheating he should be on his hands and knees for you.

Instead he is giving you sh!t over dry cleaning.

Turn the tide. Bounce this guy from your life. Catch my dreft?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

boardwalk said:


> Any other attempt like him picking up the same day as drop off I'm afraid would be the same reaction.
> 
> As for the anger, yes he does have outbursts.
> 
> ...


You have been gaslighted. You have been taught to believe that YOU are the problem when in reality you are married to an abusive man.

Read this book ASAP:
Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft | 9780425191651 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

boardwalk said:


> I don't ever bring up the affair/trust issue anymore since it thrown back in my face, that I "will never get over it and always hold it over him."
> 
> 
> I've made an appt with a counsellor next week, I was interested in marriage counselling but right now, I think it is best by myself, as you say IamSomebody.


It has only been a year, and he throws in your face that you will never get over it and always hold it over him???

I hope you are reading about how other marriages are affected by adultery. My husband committed adultery 6 years ago, and I had a couple of questions about it for him today. He calmly tried to remember and gave me an honest answer.

He should be shaking in his boots worried that he pushed you too far, and that you might leave him if he doesn't change and prove to you that he is a different man.

Like Turnera said, your husband sounds like an abuser and a manipulator. He is using your mind against you.

That should make you leave. A man who not only cheats, but who gets in your head to intimidate you and convince you that you are wrong when he is wrong is not a safe man.

I'm glad you've set a counseling appointment for yourself, and not MC.

Yelling at you, telling you he doesn't love you and telling you to leave, then taking it all back the next day is abuse and sick. He sounds like a spoiled child in a man's body throwing temper tantrums. 

He doesn't deserve you.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If you were head over heels for him, you'd be tickled pink to collect his shirts, even if it put you out of your way a bit. If he were head over heels for you, a few wrinkles on his shirts wouldn't send him over the edge. I'm guessing this is about a helluva lot more than dry cleaning. He watches porn and easily snaps at you. The first thing I'd suspect is he's resentful about sex. Was he always into porn or is this something that developed after marriage? Does he complain about the frequency of sex or maybe ask you to do something sexual that you aren't agreeable to?


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
In light of the additional information your actions are in no way unreasonable. In fact it his he who is unreasonable. To heal from an A takes years and much work on the part of the WS. Him throwing it in your face whenever you bring it up is a clear indicator that he is not sincere in his concern for your healing. He wants it to go back to the way it was and for you to just get over it. It does not work that way, at least not long term. It is wise that you are seeking counsel but do not let the counselor put the blame on you for the A. Accept blame for your part of any marital issues but not the A. That was his very poor way of handling the situation and is his to own. Good fortune to you.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

OP, there is a blog that might help you give you some perspective about your marriage. Check out chumplady.


----------



## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I am not surprised by your updates. I have a long thread in going through divorce and separation if you want to see how your marriage will play out over the next 10 years. Your H sounds SO much like mine (my soon to be XH!), except mine expressed his anger in 100% passive/covert ways. 

It doesn't get better. I tried EVERYTHING. If your H doesn't love you (mine didn't love me either), he'll emotionally abuse you until you leave him, so that he can feel like the good guy who got left by a crazy woman. Go. We're all here for you!!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> If you were head over heels for him, you'd be tickled pink to collect his shirts, even if it put you out of your way a bit. If he were head over heels for you, a few wrinkles on his shirts wouldn't send him over the edge. I'm guessing this is about a helluva lot more than dry cleaning. He watches porn and easily snaps at you. The first thing I'd suspect is he's resentful about sex. Was he always into porn or is this something that developed after marriage? Does he complain about the frequency of sex or maybe ask you to do something sexual that you aren't agreeable to?


OH, and of course he CHEATED on her because she wasn't being a good enough wife, right?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

turnera said:


> OH, and of course he CHEATED on her because she wasn't being a good enough wife, right?


I suppose he's in the best position to say why he cheated. His affair partner apparently provided something he couldn't get at home. He was adequately unhappy with his wife to risk destroying the marriage with an affair. In any case this isn't really about shirts. 

It's possible that picking up the shirts represents love and nurturing to him. If that's the case, asking her to pick up shirts was asking if she loves him.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or, it was just a typical abusive man expecting the woman to be his servant.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

boardwalk said:


> I posted about the shirts because I am (was) truly confused about whether I was acting unreasonable/selfish about saying I would pick them up on certain days, which would simply mean a slight effort on his behalf to time his drop off. It was upsetting. Ugh.


The shirt stuff is but a single symptom, among many, of a greater disease.

You do NOT have a respectful partnership built on mutual support and love.

You have a husband who expects his wife to be a meek servant while he does whatever he wants.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I suppose he's in the best position to say why he cheated. His affair partner apparently provided something he couldn't get at home. He was adequately unhappy with his wife to risk destroying the marriage with an affair. In any case this isn't really about shirts.


In every affair, there is a component of the BS not meeting some need to the WS. But that in no way excuses the WS's choice to cheat.

Most men say that the reason that they cheat is that they just want some strange. Clearly this is a need that a wife cannot meet since by definition the wife is the baseline relationship and any other woman could fill the desire for variety from the wife.

While an affair partner does meet some needs that a person has it's not a cart blanc that the BS can be blamed for the affair as you are trying to do here. Why? Because of many factors:



Often the WS does not open up to their spouse and give them a chance to fix things.


Or the 'need' is unreasonable or something that a spouse can never meet.. such as just want ing variety.


Or, no one person can meet all of their spouses needs at all times, so a person will cheat to make sure that they have 2 or more people meeting their needs.. sort of like being a pig in a bakery. One cupcake would be nice. But eating all the cupcakes, and the cake, and the pie, and the bread and on and on is oh so fulfilling. Some people are just gluts for attention (or having their needs over met).





unbelievable said:


> It's possible that picking up the shirts represents love and nurturing to him. If that's the case, asking her to pick up shirts was asking if she loves him.


You are right that him asking her to pick up shirts could be a way of him asking her if she loves him. If this is the case then he has to grow up and realize that she is not a mind reader. He needs to grow up, learn to say what he means directly. And he needs to learn to deal with his own insecurities. If he cannot state his needs very clearly, then how is she supposed to meet them? 

Having her jump through hoops to do things like make special trips that are not necessary to pick up his shirts is an attempt to extract what he wants by controlling her. 

There is no excuse for his behavior and mistreatment of her.


.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

boardwalk,

Generally it takes 2 to 5 years for a betrayed spouse to heal from the affair. And this is when the WS is actively working to help the BS heal. Clearly your husband has not been actively involved in healing you and your marriage.

Has your husband expressed why he cheated? This is an important part of healing.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> He watches porn and easily snaps at you. The first thing I'd suspect is he's resentful about sex. Was he always into porn or is this something that developed after marriage?


Surely you are aware that most men now watch internet porn... lots of it. Just look at all the threads here on TAM in which men defend vehemently their right, absolute right, to use porn as it's part of being a man these days. To blame a woman because her husband does what 99.5% of all husbands world wide are doing is down right ridiculous.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Surely you are aware that most men now watch internet porn... lots of it. Just look at all the threads here on TAM in which men defend vehemently their right, absolute right, to use porn as it's part of being a man these days. To blame a woman because her husband does what 99.5% of all husbands world wide are doing is down right ridiculous.


Not blaming anyone for anything. Trying to see if this porn thing has always been or if it is some kind of new development. The timing of things is often important. I don't know that most men watch internet porn. I know I don't and I'm not around when other men are. If you ever learn of me watching porn when there's a perfectly acceptable live woman living me you can safely assume there is some difficulty between us in the sexual department. Why watch someone else have sex when you can actually have sex?


----------



## boardwalk (Oct 17, 2015)

Hi everyone - and thank you so much for your replies, as hard as they are also validating and really saying what I've felt deep down for a long time. Hearing it from outside perspectives makes such a huge difference, and takes away the confusion. Sorry it's taken a couple of days to write, it's a hard thing!

Turnera - THANK YOU for the book suggestion (and for posting my reply broken down like that, that was a shock seeing it that way!), that book is amazing low and behold, there he was almost word for word in one of the descriptions of abusive men. It also explains so well WHY it is so hard to see this and 'just leave', since there are so many good points too. It spelt out my thinking and was incredibly helpful in switching how I view him. He also seems to sense when I'm pulling away a little and becomes 'extra amazing' husband at those times... Anyone who is struggling in an unsure relationship should certainly read that book (Lundy Bancroft 'Why Does He Do That?')

As for porn - I didn't used to mind it until 1) I was cheated on and for me now it is simply an extension of that. 2) If your husband never initiates sex the fact he watches porn 'instead' is a HUGE problem and 3) I see it now correlates and of course sustains his view of women - disrespect, simply objects etc etc - which likely goes back to why he isn't interested in having sex with his own wife, even though he puts on a good show of TALKING about how important it is and promises he will 'try harder'. Now I don't see porn as harmless at all, unless perhaps it is used occasionally in a HEALTHY relationship.

Anyway, I feel very clear now about the problem and the situation, just like the book said I would  I still find myself doubting it, as I mentioned his good side is GOOD and often sticks around for a long time.... but I believe after reading this book, being woken up from all your replies, and also having the support of a (hopefully good) counsellor, I'll remain awake and figure out what to do. I've also come across Lundy's other book 'Should I Leave' which has a big focus on how to look after yourself and get back to 'you' not matter what you choose to do about the relationship - which my counsellor really pushed a year ago after the cheating, but I've fallen back into expending so much of my energy thinking about and trying to figure out HIM and this relationship. Exhausting....

Probably a fairly long winded and all over the place update, but just wanted to say thank you to you all and I truly appreciate your replies, support and clarity.


----------



## ihatethis (Oct 17, 2013)

I'm happy that you are seeing things in a more clear light. My XH always criticized everything I did for him, even if it was a special favor I was doing that he didn't even ask... he would always find something wrong with it. I didn't realize it at the time, but it was SO exhausting on myself. I started to question EVERYTHING I did and I blamed myself for everything. You have to remain true to who you are. Do NOT let him continue to mold you to be someone you are not. You're story looks all too familiar, and I suggest that you really consider stepping away.


----------



## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

They never get better. He is abusive and entitlement minded.

Your best bet is to cut bait and run.


----------



## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

What percentage of the family income do you make compared to him? If I worked LONG HOURS and made 90% of the family income, and my wife worked from home, so her hours were essentially her own...I might expect her to pick up shirts, or prescriptions, or take out.....

But would probably just get a 3 week rotation of shirts, or a laundry that delivered....

Before we married my wife said she would be happy when we lived together so she could iron my shirts....Guesses on how long that lasted......


----------



## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

Working from home does not always mean you get to pick your hours and do what you want when you want.

I've worked from home and had a schedule as if I worked in an office.

I refuse now because my husband thought I should do all housework and other **** on my breaks because I worked from home. 

Screw your husband op. Selfish guys never change


----------



## Froggi (Sep 10, 2014)

And quite frankly what does it matter if he makes more money? His arms aren't broken plus he's an *******.

The person making less money should not be relegated to servant because of income.


----------



## boardwalk (Oct 17, 2015)

Thank you Froggi - completely agree with your posts. Woodchuck either hasn't grasped the point of the thread, or he is exactly like my husband and therefore never will.


----------

