# Cannot kick non working husband out



## temperance

I have posted up my story a while back here. Long story short, my husband hasn't been working, bum out at the house playing PC games for ten years and wake up at 2pm everyday. I have been the sole supporter for him and his daughter, we don't have children together but a dog I adore like my own baby. My business has taken a nose dive two years ago, I turned it around but it takes another hit beginning of this year, I have sold our four bedroom house and it has just been closed. We have just moved to a one bedroom rental apartment. We went to two marriage counseling sessions but nothing has changed!

This site has provided a lot of useful support and insight! And I know that this relationship is not working out, it is a child/parent relationship, except that he is a 42 years old man child and I am a 37 years old parent a supposing my husband. 

He still haven't been able to find work. I have a major depression episode, and that day he went out to hand out some resumes, had 1 interview and that's about it. He went out to buy himself a pair of shoes and clothes the next day the house closed. Life proceed as usual for him, nothing has changed :'(

We had a fight two nights ago, all started by me asking him what has he been doing the day, has he try to find jobs and try to follow up with the few companies he submitted his resumes to. He got 'annoyed' at me, and said that he is trying, that he has no car because I need to use it everyday, and that we have no internet at home. I didn't snap at him like the marriage counselor, that he doesn't even have a driver's license. He got very snappy at me and said if he can "BORROW" the car from me!

What hurt the most is that I asked him why is he not putting an effort to find work. He said angrily that he has to find a job soon because we haven't paid child support to his ex-wife for months and that she will take him to court soon. I was heartbroken, I was crying and asked him if this is what he cares about, that's the reason why he 'try' to get a job. 

It hurts when I feel that I am forcing him to find work, not that he is willing to find work because he wants to help me out. He is not doing it for me, that's what hurts me the most. 

I am angry and exhausted. I have always ask myself if I still love him now. I am so angry, I must say I do not love him, I hate what we are now, I hate what I am now, I feel like a totally failure and not able to pick myself up :'( Every little thing he does / doesn't do bothers me. It affects my work, my whole being and I just feel I do not want to work anymore. 

With the cash I got from the house, I have paid off all my debts and nothing much left behind. I am so scared that we will burn out the cash in no time. 

I don't know how to split with him, I don't know how to work things out with him. I feel so STUCK and miserable  

Any suggestions? What can I do now?


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> What hurt the most is that I asked him why is he not putting an effort to find work. He said angrily that he has to find a job soon because we haven't paid child support to his ex-wife for months and that she will take him to court soon. I was heartbroken, I was crying and asked him if this is what he cares about, that's the reason why he 'try' to get a job.
> 
> It hurts when I feel that I am forcing him to find work, not that he is willing to find work because he wants to help me out. He is not doing it for me, that's what hurts me the most.


You are not responsible for paying his child support. DO NOT PAY IT ANY MORE. It seems that the fear of what the courts might do to him for not supporting his child is about the only thing that will motivate him to job hunt. Whatever motivates him is good.

Your husband is using you. He’s also emotionally abusive. What he’s doing is not mentally healthy for either of you.


temperance said:


> With the cash I got from the house, I have paid off all my debts and nothing much left behind. I am so scared that we will burn out the cash in no time.


Make sure that the money is in a bank account in your name only. Do not give him access to it. Actually cut him off from everything financial. 

Also, if he does not have a driver’s license, do not let him use your car. If he has an accident your insurance will not pay it and you will be financially liable. 



temperance said:


> I don't know how to split with him, I don't know how to work things out with him. I feel so STUCK and miserable
> 
> Any suggestions? What can I do now?


You cannot work this out with him. He will not change until he has to. And he does not have to change as long as he has you to support him.

What do you do? You separate from him and file for divorce. Does he have a friend or family member who he can stay with for a while?


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## temperance

I tried to kick him out to his parents, but his mom already took in yet another son to live in their baseman, so she said no room


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## EleGirl

Can you move? Do you have anyone that you can go live with?


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## PBear

That's not your problem. If you're done having him leech off you, talk to a lawyer. My fear is that you may have to pay alimony to him due to the length of time he's been coasting. But often, the courts will assign him a default wage if he refuses to work, limiting your responsibility to him. And it will be the start of getting your life back. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

If his name on the least/rental agreement at the new apartment you are in?


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## brownguy

He is a loser! and you are too good for him. Dont let him take advantage of you like that. It seems its an issue with the family since the other son is back with his mom too. I suggest maybe ending it all - and just supporting yourself if he wont smarten up and be a man - get a job and support you and his child. If he loves you - he will change, otherwise your just giving him a free ride. 

keep us posted.


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## temperance

I just can't work up the courage to tell him I want to move out 
Only my name is on the lease agreement, he is on it as a co-occupant, not sure what that means. I still need to pay for the rent, I can't just ditch my step-daughter and my dog with him. 

PBear, I have spoken to the lawyer before I sold my house. Yes I will have to pay alimony, and he will be entitle to half of all assets I have which the remaining cash, and all his legal fees.


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## EleGirl

If you do not mind, would you share what state you live in? Knowing this will help in giving you support.

How old is your step daughter.

What do you mean by "ditch your step-daughter"? Do you mean that you want to keep contact with her? have her visit you? You can still have that even if you divorce him. Are you on good terms with SD's mother?

Ditch him and keep your SD and dog. 

Depending on your state, you would probably can do a divorce without a lawyer. 

Perhaps you could do your divorce in steps. Tell him you want to divorce him so that you are not made legally liable to pay the child support. 

The best way for him to get back into the work force is for him to go back to school. This is the truth by the way. You two being divorced will help with this as he will be able to get financial aid to help him get through school. 

After all this is in place.. you could always ask him to leave. He will have the financial aid so he can get along financially and you will not be tied down with his debt.


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## EleGirl

How long did you sign the lease for?


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## PBear

temperance said:


> I just can't work up the courage to tell him I want to move out
> Only my name is on the lease agreement, he is on it as a co-occupant, not sure what that means. I still need to pay for the rent, I can't just ditch my step-daughter and my dog with him.
> 
> PBear, I have spoken to the lawyer before I sold my house. Yes I will have to pay alimony, and he will be entitle to half of all assets I have which the remaining cash, and all his legal fees.


Do you know why a divorce is so expensive?

Because it's worth it!

Your husband will continue to drag you down until you take action to stop this. Just my $0.02. 

Oh, and consider counseling to figure out why you've been enabling his behavior for so long. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fordsvt

temperance said:


> I just can't work up the courage to tell him I want to move out
> Only my name is on the lease agreement, he is on it as a co-occupant, not sure what that means. I still need to pay for the rent, I can't just ditch my step-daughter and my dog with him.
> 
> PBear, I have spoken to the lawyer before I sold my house. Yes I will have to pay alimony, and he will be entitle to half of all assets I have which the remaining cash, and all his legal fees.


I could not agree more. You need out of this fast. You need to leave then if he won't. Start by separating then go from there. Weight out the options and play it smart. I don't think this one can be salvaged. By staying you are just enabling his behavior.


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## temperance

EleGirl said:


> If you do not mind, would you share what state you live in? Knowing this will help in giving you support.
> 
> How old is your step daughter.
> 
> What do you mean by "ditch your step-daughter"? Do you mean that you want to keep contact with her? have her visit you? You can still have that even if you divorce him. Are you on good terms with SD's mother?
> 
> Ditch him and keep your SD and dog.


I am in Toronto, Canada. She is 15 now, and no I don't speak to her mom, if fact I was the one who paid for all the legal fees to put a court order on her to get her out of my hair and have joint custody. She lives with her mom and only stay with us weekends and holidays. She is at the age where she should start prepare to go to college, with her mom and dad I am quite sure she won't. Where she lives doesn't have public transit, so my husband rely on me and my car to pick her up and drop her her to her suburb home. 



EleGirl said:


> The best way for him to get back into the work force is for him to go back to school. This is the truth by the way. You two being divorced will help with this as he will be able to get financial aid to help him get through school.


My lawyer also informed me if that's the case, I will have to pay for his education. I have tried to put him back to school, he couldn't surivive the first term, always sick and couldn't get up to go to school.


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## temperance

EleGirl said:


> How long did you sign the lease for?


Lease is for a year


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> I am in Toronto, Canada. She is 15 now, and no I don't speak to her mom, if fact I was the one who paid for all the legal fees to put a court order on her to get her out of my hair and have joint custody. She lives with her mom and only stay with us weekends and holidays. She is at the age where she should start prepare to go to college, with her mom and dad I am quite sure she won't. Where she lives doesn't have public transit, so my husband rely on me and my car to pick her up and drop her her to her suburb home.


You have taken more responsibility for her daughter than he has. She's of a age that you can contact her directly to keep in contact with her. 

In 2000 I married a man who had full custody of this two children, step-son 12 and step-daughter 10. I ended up supporting them 100% and being their primary parent. I get what you are going through on this and how you feel about it. 

My step children are now in their 24 and 26. They are still very much in my life. They call or come by weekly. Are here for the holidays, and so forth.

Another part of your situation that is like mine is that my husband dropped out of life and has been 'addicted' to video games and the internet.. this started in 2002 and is still going on. 

I divorced him in spring of 2012. But he will not leave. Like you I need to find a way to get away from him. AT least I got the first step out of the way.. the divorce.




temperance said:


> My lawyer also informed me if that's the case, I will have to pay for his education. I have tried to put him back to school, he couldn't surivive the first term, always sick and couldn't get up to go to school.


You have been married for 10 years? Then you would most likely have to pay support for half that time. You can have an income imputed for him, probably minimum wage. So that will lessen your obligation to him. The longer you stay married to him, the longer you will have to pay support.

"The general rule is that spouses who are entitled to support will receive it for a minimum of one half the length of the marriage and cohabitation and a maximum of all the years of the marriage or cohabitation. 

So, if you were married or cohabited for ten years, you would receive support for a minimum of five years and a maximum of ten years. Herein lies one of the resolution dilemmas. Of course, husbands only want to pay for five years, while wives demand ten years of support."


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> Lease is for a year


Can you buy your way out of the lease? For example can you pay one month's rent to get out of it?

One thing you could do is to take the rest of the time on the lease to plan out your divorce. Then move out 1-2 months before the lease is up leaving him in the current apartment. That gives him time to find a job before the lease is up.


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## temperance

Fordsvt said:


> I could not agree more. You need out of this fast. You need to leave then if he won't. Start by separating then go from there. Weight out the options and play it smart. I don't think this one can be salvaged. By staying you are just enabling his behavior.


He made a home cook meal last night, and tried to find out where's the coin laundry place so he can do the laundry. He kisses me on the cheek while I was asleep. He would tell my dog to 'go see mommy'. This is how I 'enable' his behavior time and time (years and years) again ;'(

I have a major depression episode this morning, I was thinking to just rent a car and just took off.... until I called the 'crisis center' here. Now I am relatively calm. I don't know how many times I can snap myself out of it. I am so sick of feeling so weak


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> He made a home cook meal last night, and tried to find out where's the coin laundry place so he can do the laundry. He kisses me on the cheek while I was asleep. He would tell my dog to 'go see mommy'. This is how I 'enable' his behavior time and time (years and years) again ;'(
> 
> I have a major depression episode this morning, I was thinking to just rent a car and just took off.... until I called the 'crisis center' here. Now I am relatively calm. I don't know how many times I can snap myself out of it. I am so sick of feeling so weak


I know how this works.. they do just enough to keep your guilt trip up. Look at the whole picture, not the one good thing he does a week.

Do you have anyone you an move in with for a while? Are there any family or friends?


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## temperance

EleGirl said:


> Do you have anyone you an move in with for a while? Are there any family or friends?


It's complicated... I came from an abusive family, I wasn't suppose to be borned a woman, my relationship with my family is not great. We are immigrant, my relatives are all overseas. I have friends, they are more business acquaintances then friends. I wouldn't feel comfortable troubling them. One thing is that... when my business and finance is in a dump, people don't want to associate with me. For the few good friends, I don't want to take advantage of them. 

How can you be so strong? How did you do it?


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> It's complicated... I came from an abusive family, I wasn't suppose to be borned a woman, my relationship with my family is not great. We are immigrant, my relatives are all overseas. I have friends, they are more business acquaintances then friends. I wouldn't feel comfortable troubling them. One thing is that... when my business and finance is in a dump, people don't want to associate with me. For the few good friends, I don't want to take advantage of them.
> 
> How can you be so strong? How did you do it?


I don't feel like I am being very strong at all.

I did the divorce because I was afraid that I'd get stuck with having to pay him alimony.

But he is still living here. He's like your husband. He spends his days playing computer games. He has not worked in years. He does little to nothing in the house.

I would be ok with him not working if he was a very good stay at home husband. But instead I do most of the housework, have to hire people for most of the yard work. He feeds the dogs, cleans the dishes every few days, cooks dinner about 3 days a week and does grocery shopping once a month or so. 

He has no money, no friends and his family lives on the east and west coast. 

I have not been able to kick him out because he will be on the street. 

I get what you are dealing with. 

One of the big differences between my situation and yours is that your H could go sleep on the couch at his mother's house. Or he could share a room with his brother. Your husband does have somewhere to go.

You have to get him out while he has somewhere to go.


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## temperance

EleGirl said:


> I divorced him in spring of 2012. But he will not leave. Like you I need to find a way to get away from him. AT least I got the first step out of the way.. the divorce.


Did you file for divorce while still living with him? Or did you move out and then file for a divorce? 



EleGirl said:


> You have been married for 10 years? Then you would most likely have to pay support for half that time.


My lawyer told me I have to support him for the next 10 years from the time the separation/divorce agreement is filed. 

I was a software engineer too, at least started out as one, I graduate from one of the best tech school on earth. After years building my business (in finance and accounting), it is so difficult and depressing to go through interview after interview for full-time contract or a job. I am 'unemployable'  I don't understand how I got here  I won't have the ability to support him nor myself if I keep going like this and depress, I am tired of working.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

temperance said:


> Did you file for divorce while still living with him? Or did you move out and then file for a divorce?
> 
> 
> 
> My lawyer told me I have to support him for the next 10 years from the time the separation/divorce agreement is filed.
> 
> I was a software engineer too, at least started out as one, I graduate from one of the best tech school on earth. After years building my business (in finance and accounting), it is so difficult and depressing to go through interview after interview for full-time contract or a job. I am 'unemployable'  I don't understand how I got here  I won't have the ability to support him nor myself if I keep going like this and depress, I am tired of working.


Well, there's no rule or law that says you have to be so gosh-darned responsible. File for divorce and if you can pay him alimony pay. Sounds to me like you'd make heaps more money AND be free to manage it properly without the heavy baggage that's weighing you down caused by your relationship with him. Maybe you can pay it all up front - if you don't have any money left at least he won't follow you around like a puppy dog. My guess is he'll spiff up enough to land a new Sugar Mama, and lure her in the same way he did you. Not your problem though! About your dog and step-daughter, I think you need to toughen up a bit. You might lose one, the other, both, or neither. But you need to put yourself first or everyone's going down.


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## LongWalk

Why aren't you divorcing him asap? You don't love him anymore. You don't have children. You don't have assets. There is no point to your marriage.


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## EleGirl

temperance said:


> Did you file for divorce while still living with him? Or did you move out and then file for a divorce?


The lease is in my name. My son is in college and lives at home. AT the time my step daughter was also living here. So no I did not move out. 
I filed for divorce with him living here in the house. He will not even look for work or move out. So I am now thinking that I will just get a new place and move with my son. Then he can sit here and figure out what he will do.




temperance said:


> My lawyer told me I have to support him for the next 10 years from the time the separation/divorce agreement is filed.


Have you talked to other lawyers? You might want to get a second opinion on that. 



temperance said:


> I was a software engineer too, at least started out as one, I graduate from one of the best tech school on earth. After years building my business (in finance and accounting), it is so difficult and depressing to go through interview after interview for full-time contract or a job. I am 'unemployable'  I don't understand how I got here  I won't have the ability to support him nor myself if I keep going like this and depress, I am tired of working.


Why are you unemployable?

Could you possibly take some time off work? This would be the best time to do it. You’d no little to no income. Helps to keep down the alimony.

Surely there are things you can do with your business to make your income look lower.


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## cdbaker

Yeah I'd say get a second opinion from another attorney. I bet there are ways to make a possible divorce go smoother.

With that said, I still get the impression that all hope isn't lost. I think I've said it before, but outside of accepting homelessness, the man is going to grow up at some point. Whether it is with you or without you is the question. At this point, I don't even get the impression that he would fight you too hard if you were to push him.

Here are some thoughts I'd consider, at least what I think I would do if I were in your shoes, knowing what we know:

1. Make him get a job and give him no more than two weeks to make it happen. I have yet to find a community (or nearby community) that does not have a temp agency or a consistent need for low wage employees or laborers. Outside of being in school or legitimately disabled, there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for not not having a job of some kind. If he doesn't like working at McDonalds (or some similar less-than-desirable but often available job) then he can keep job hunting for a better job while he is an employee of McDonalds. He'll also develop a respect for working full time.
2. Make him get a drivers license. I think you have mentioned before that he knows how to drive and has done so illegally many times. So make him go get his license. If he needs a ride there, needs to borrow the car to do so, needs a bit of money for the license fee, then go ahead and help him out. Again, give him no longer than one or two weeks to do this.
3. Establish an understanding of what the household responsibilities will be. Who cooks dinner on which nights, who does laundry/dishes/vacuuming/etc. Don't bother trying to get him to agree to take on a larger share of the responsibilities while he isn't working. He'll either be working or moving out very soon anyway, so no need to waste breath on that discussion.
4. Until he has proven that he is willing to be a supportive and equal partner, don't pay for anything for him outside of basic necessities. No child support, no video games, no "nights out with friends", alcohol/cigarettes, etc. Don't think of this as punishing him, think of it as motivating him.
4. Establish the clear understanding these expectations are not unreasonable and that you expect these changes to happen within the timeframes you chose or else you will ask him to move out. You'll insist that he either move out or you will move out and bill him for the move.

I think I gave similar thoughts/suggestions once before as well, but also included something about cutting expenses to the bare bones including internet access so that the temptation to play PC games all day long will be lessened. (Though I'm guessing he still gaming quite a bit offline) You could have this conversation with him in a very loving and reassuring way, it doesn't have to be cold and heartless.

Ultimately what I am saying is that this doesn't have to be a matter of "Do I divorce him or not?" but could instead be viewed as, "How can I get him to change his ways?" and then if he chooses not to do so with the terms/conditions of that decision clearly understood, then the issue of divorce will have been essentially made by him.


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## temperance

EleGirl said:


> The lease is in my name. My son is in college and lives at home. AT the time my step daughter was also living here. So no I did not move out.
> I filed for divorce with him living here in the house. He will not even look for work or move out. So I am now thinking that I will just get a new place and move with my son. Then he can sit here and figure out what he will do.


What was his reaction when you serve him the paper? What lead you to finally decide to serve him the divorce paper? Did he know about it before? 



EleGirl said:


> Have you talked to other lawyers? You might want to get a second opinion on that.


I spoke to 3 lawyers, two are my friends. They just laid out the best and worst case scenario for me. But at the minimum is that I have to pay him alimony for next 10 years. Since my business was at a loss last two years, if I file now my business is OK. If not, he will have half of my capital gain for two years prior to file. 

I guess money is the least I am worrying about, its my insanity  



EleGirl said:


> Why are you unemployable?


There's not many executive job out there, and the fact that I still have clients obligations, employees, payroll to pay, etc, I can't really just shut it down and disappear. I got an on-demand based contract as a CFO for a start-up, they only really need me for few hours here and there throughout the month, this gives me a bit of revenue but not enough to sustain. Also... there's the pride issues  It hurts when one of the senior director I tried to get a job interview told me right in my face that "my resume doesn't ring true, if I am that successful why am I looking for a job". She told me to dump down my resume and refer me to another job posting in a much more junior post, pretty much start from scratch. Right now I don't feel this kind of humiliation motives me, instead it drives me into deep depression  Coming home looking at my husband make me even more mad :'(



EleGirl said:


> Could you possibly take some time off work? This would be the best time to do it. You’d no little to no income. Helps to keep down the alimony.


I have thought about it many times  The blow is that I had to layoff a bunch of people, one of my partner quit as well, so my workload has skyrocketed. I have to make a business trip end of Nov, early Dec, just not sure about timing yet, will be all out of my own pocket, so financially I simply don't have enough to do 'vacation'....or not enough energy to figure out how. 

I just feel that I don't have the strength to do anything AT ALL anymore.


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## Unique Username

you learned an expensive lesson

cut your losses and bail on this loser

you still have time to make life what you want it to be


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## Unique Username

You have two lawyers with you to devise an exit plan.

If you are out of work and have no money - how can they make you pay alimony? 

Find out the ramifications of each choice. 


I don't know what you do - but if you owned your own business - can you go out of business? Divorce then re-open in a different business name?

Spousal support would be according to your current assets - if you have none he gets none? Seriously talk to any accountants you know and your lawyer friends and figure out a way to leave with the dog.


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## temperance

cdbaker said:


> Ultimately what I am saying is that this doesn't have to be a matter of "Do I divorce him or not?" but could instead be viewed as, "How can I get him to change his ways?" and then if he chooses not to do so with the terms/conditions of that decision clearly understood, then the issue of divorce will have been essentially made by him.


Cutting the finance is what makes it hard to even talk to him. 
I am relatively calm today. I will take your suggestions and go speak to him at dinner tonight. It is very emotionally draining, I am so afraid one day I just cannot snap myself out of it and suicide.


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## Fordsvt

You need to leave this negative situation. Being nice for one night or even one month doesn't cut it. You are depressed and not stable. You need out to help repair your self worth and self esteem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kaci

PBear said:


> Oh my gosh, poor girl. Guess he probably knows this. Where is his daughter's mother, if I may ask...


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## temperance

Unique Username said:


> You have two lawyers with you to devise an exit plan.
> 
> If you are out of work and have no money - how can they make you pay alimony?
> 
> Find out the ramifications of each choice.
> 
> 
> I don't know what you do - but if you owned your own business - can you go out of business? Divorce then re-open in a different business name?
> 
> Spousal support would be according to your current assets - if you have none he gets none? Seriously talk to any accountants you know and your lawyer friends and figure out a way to leave with the dog.


Unique_User_Name is your user name?  very creative!

The sad thing here is that... yes I do have my options layout for me, only that I don't feel I am emotionally strong enough to make any rational move, and it will take two years if I close down the business and 'sell' it to someone I trust and work for them as an employee, that has already planned out only if I want to execute or not. 

I am not really out of work, although I haven't been drawing from my company for two years.


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## temperance

Fordsvt said:


> You need to leave this negative situation. Being nice for one night or even one month doesn't cut it. You are depressed and not stable. You need out to help repair your self worth and self esteem.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I ended up didn't layout all the terms at dinner, he started mentioning about sending resumes to manpower and such, so I figured to give him, and myself, a break. I am finally able to somewhat drag myself out of the shell and calm enough to catch up with my work, stop my crying and depression, keeping myself busy these two days. I have restored internet service so he can't make excuses not to job hunt. Last night he said he was sick, he also mentioned about chatting with his online game buddy for cheap / free download TV shows and movies. I was able to calmly told him he should be putting his effort to find work instead of thinking about how to entertain himself.... without losing it myself. He was annoyed but this time his response was "I Know", instead of giving me some stupid defensive remarks. 

Here's what I am going to do for now.... I will take EleGirl advice... take a week off and go somewhere by myself, a real vacation, probably to the mountains / ski hills out west just to clear my head. 

The biggest questions for me is.... should I still try to work it out with him? Or... should I find myself a place to move out now... although that means I will have to pay rent for two places. All the guys here are saying to move on or else I am just enabling him, except for cdbaker


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## temperance

Kaci said:


> Oh my gosh, poor girl. Guess he probably knows this. Where is his daughter's mother, if I may ask...


He probably knows I am trying to leave him, or he knows he can take half of the cash I have now and continue to support him? 

His daughter's mother re-married and just had a baby two weeks ago.


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## Sanity

I honestly cannot believe a grown man is doing this. Dear lord my brain hurts honey. On behalf of men, my apologies for this waste of space you call a man/husband.

More to the point, you need to shop around different lawyers and legally find a way to cut this leech off your arm. Not saying you won't cut into good tissue and scar but in the end its worth it. Speak to your lawyer about asset division laws in your state and debt. If you both incurred debt you can threaten him that if he does not waive alimony then all debts and obligations are split down the middle. Speak to your attorney and get a plan together to protect yourself and your rights. 

And for Pete's sake please stop giving him money. Not one dime!


----------



## temperance

Ok guys, my husband wants me to 'talk' to him last night. I told him I don't have anything to talk about anymore, all the issues have been voiced for months and at the two MC sessions. I told him I don't know what to tell him anymore, every time I brought up issues he defenses himself. I bought them up again, especially the most recent one that he finally tries to put an effort to find work because of his ex-wife, and explain to him how hurtful it was for me. He said that's not what he meant, he said that because his ex was pressuring him for money for the last few days. 

He said he wants to work things out so our marriage gets better. I asked him what does getting better means to him, he said that means everything back to normal like how it used to. I was silence... it is the wrong answer ;( I told him I don't want to be back to how things used to be, that's exactly why we are where we are today!! I told him I don't know how to work this out with him because I feel that he doesn't understand what the problems are? What to work on if he denies there are problems and that I demand changes? He doesn't even know what are the changes despite the MC told him?! 

He asked me what do I want to do, do I want him pack up his stuff and leave?  I just answered I don't know and went to bed  

So... guys... should I give him yet another chance? Maybe finally he is willing to listen? Maybe I don't know how to communicate with him, should I schedule another meeting with the MC again? Or... should I find a place to move out, give him an allowance, layout what I want him to do with a deadline like cdbaker suggested. With the cash I have from the house, I can probably sustain two to three months longer with two rent, while trying to find a contract as independent contractor, this should allow me to hire people to pick up the current business operation in the time being.


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## cdbaker

Well, I'm not saying that you should stay for sure, or that you are enabling him or not by staying or going. I've been saying that it keeps sounding like he doesn't understand just how serious this has become. Your latest comments seem to enforce that.

His concern about money "because his ex was pressuring him for money" (not because it's a concern for YOU as well)
He wants "everything back to normal like how it used to be." (Not understanding that the problems aren't just recent issues)
"He doesn't even know what the changes are despite MC telling him."
"He asked me what do I want [him] to do?"

He still hasn't gotten it! He could just be a genuine moron. Like more moronic than the average guy is as it relates to women I mean. My guess however is that you haven't been CRYSTAL CLEAR with him yet. That means being DIRECT (not indirect), FIRM (not softly or compassionately), SPECIFIC (not trying to avoid hurt feelings by generalizing) and as clear as possible. Write it down if need be. Make a list! (That's why I listed my suggestions above)

So again, I think it would be easier for you to put him in a position where HE has to make a choice, rather than you having to make that choice for both of you and second guessing yourself. If you were to make a list of your firm expectations, like literally type them up and hand them to him, then he would know clearly what has to happen. If he ever asks, "Do you want me to pack up and leave?" you could just respond, "It's really up to you. If you are incapable or unwilling to meet the basic and reasonable expectations that I gave you on paper, then yes I do want you to leave. If you can take responsibilities for the things on that list, just as the vast majority of husbands do every day, then I'd like you to stay. It's up to you though." I think this type of scenario would be easier than beating yourself up over it.

Because if he isn't willing to do the things you need of him, then yes you absolutely should ask him to leave. (No I don't think you should go rent a 2nd apartment and pay for two apartments!) Let him go crash with his mom. If his brother is half as much of a coward as your husband is, then maybe his mom will finally get fed up and set them both straight, or maybe your husband will figure out what has become of his life and WAKE UP.

If you are going away for a week, that sounds like a great opportunity to give him that time to prove to you where he stands. You can write him that letter telling him that he needs to accomplish the following things (fix previously discussed problems) before you return from your break. If he refuses, then you'd like to see him gone before you return and he is cut off financially. That gives him a week, which I think is plenty of time to show a ton of progress if he actually wants to and is committed to it. Job (Manpower), drivers license, clean the house, etc.


----------



## Runs like Dog

_Any suggestions? What can I do now?_

Pack up his stuff and leave it on the porch. You're not his mother.


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## Rebfjecca

limiting your responsibility to him. And it will be the start of getting your life back.


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## EleGirl

Rebfjecca said:


> limiting your responsibility to him. And it will be the start of getting your life back.


How does she limit her responsibility to him? Do you have some solid advice?


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## temperance

I spoke to my mom today, usually I don't talk about my troubles and personal stuff with her that much. She has a control freak personality.. anyhow we went out for lunch. I sort of told her what happened, she said something which also confirm my gut feelings as well... She is quite sure that even if he gets a job now, he will be complaining about some sickness, start missing work and eventually lost his employment. That has came across my mind numerous time too, just a gut feeling. 

I don't know why it is so hard for me to leave him! When it comes to firing people, I was able to be so clear headed to do the right thing to save my company. I feel that I am not able to do the right thing here at all to save myself!!


----------



## temperance

cdbaker said:


> He still hasn't gotten it! He could just be a genuine moron. Like more moronic than the average guy is as it relates to women I mean. My guess however is that you haven't been CRYSTAL CLEAR with him yet. That means being DIRECT (not indirect), FIRM (not softly or compassionately), SPECIFIC (not trying to avoid hurt feelings by generalizing) and as clear as possible. Write it down if need be. Make a list! (That's why I listed my suggestions above)


I have another 'talk' with him last night. It was kind of furious because his mother called him to ask for me to pay back the few thousand dollars we borrowed, and he asked me if we have enough to pay her back that we promised to pay her back when we sold the house. I told him I want him to call his mother back and told her HE will pay her back when he get a job. I was upset (but calm) about how his mother would expect ME to pay for it. It seems that finally he gets it (kind of getting it). He might just be a 'genuine moron' like you said... I don't like and have never called him names, but yes I understand what you are saying. He said he wants to build a better and happier life with me. I ask him what does it mean by that, what does better and happier life means to him? And he answered, nicer house to live in, don't need to worry about not having money for food, TV and all that, a better live. I told him so he was happy before because we 'had' all that, that I 'had' provide all that. I guess he finally gets where I was coming from (that's a big step for me you have no idea :'( ), he then added yes he was happy, but he also wants me to be happy too. 

So that's answer my sixty million question.... he honestly did not know nor understand how I can be unhappy, and he honestly think that we need to 'work on our marriage' by restoring everything back to how it was before. Typical male selfishness maybe? 

We have also talked about how Al-Anon works and what solution it presented to me, and how I enabled him to drink until I couldn't take it after years, and then how I enabled him to replace his alcohol addiction to another addiction which is gaming and not working without stopping him. And that he said he loves me and he cares but he didn't act on it to show me he truly cares, that he only acted on impulse. Unfortunately his ex-wife coming after him for child support trigger his impulse to go do something about it, but seeing me struggle and suffer did not trigger him to do something to help me, that hurts. 

I told him I don't think he understand I am not in the stage of if I want to stay or not. I am already in the stage of 'I want OUT' of this relationship. 

He said he wants to trying everything he can do to work on our marriage. I told him I am going away for a few weeks just by myself for vacation. He knows I have been working my butt off for all these years without a break. And I told him I want to see him at least going to driving classes and have a date for driving test when I get back. I will leave him enough money to do that, and I will leave him the car to use to do all that while I am away. 

He did ask me a few questions, like where will I be going, who will be there, etc etc. He said he loves me enough to let me go away if this is what I needed, even though he doesn't want me to.  again not the right 'choice of words' but ok, give him and myself a freaking break, I am exhausted.


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## cdbaker

I think there is a bit of a language issue going on that is making it difficult for me to understand...

So it sounds like you believe he "gets it" now as far as your being completely clear and direct about wanting out of the marriage if he can't change and be more supportive, helpful, etc. and give up his vices? (gaming and alcohol) If you are going away for a few weeks, (not just one week) then I think you really aught to expect that he can get more done than just setting an appointment for a driving test. Honestly I know from experience that a motivated individual can find a job (even if it's just a "Manpower" job) in the space of a few days if need be. So why wouldn't you ask him to have a job by the time he returns?

If he complains about how hard he's tried to find a job, or the jobs available aren't what he wants, then remind him of your conversation and the fact that you NEED him to prove that he is committed by taking a job, any job. He says he wants you to be happy as well, then he needs to understand how miserable his addiction to alcohol, gaming and laziness has made you. There is absolutely NO REASON he can't walk into Manpower, start his paperwork, get tested, and have a job of some kind lined up for him a week later. (I'm assuming he has no felony convictions, major physical handicap, etc.) He can get that manpower job right away and then keep looking for something better if he wants to, but he should have that job FIRST. You should demand that he have a job by the time you return.

This trip is your GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to get him to correct as many issues as you can. He'll probably never be more motivated and insecure than he feels right now, and will hopefully try very hard to ensure that you come home to a much more ideal situation, so I'd honestly make a list of expectations for him, not just one or two. He'll have a lot of free time to wonder what you are doing, what you are thinking about, if you have given up on him or not, if you have considered seeing someone else or might meet someone else, etc. I'm not saying anyone should keep their spouse in that state of mind for very long, but for a short time, it's needed to get the message across.

Also, don't answer too many questions about your trip. I think it'd be best to leave him wondering a bit. I think it's ok to tell him where you are going (roughly. He doesn't need to know specifics. Like "I'm going to Hawaii to surf" but probably doesn't need to know the exact hotel), how long you will be gone, if you'll be alone or with friends (probably don't need to say with whom) and leave him an emergency phone number to reach you at. Only for emergencies!


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## temperance

cdbaker said:


> I think there is a bit of a language issue going on that is making it difficult for me to understand...
> 
> So it sounds like you believe he "gets it" now as far as your being completely clear and direct about wanting out of the marriage if he can't change and be more supportive, helpful, etc. and give up his vices? (gaming and alcohol) If you are going away for a few weeks, (not just one week) then I think you really aught to expect that he can get more done than just setting an appointment for a driving test. Honestly I know from experience that a motivated individual can find a job (even if it's just a "Manpower" job) in the space of a few days if need be. So why wouldn't you ask him to have a job by the time he returns?


I meant I told him 'I want out'. Not what I want out of the relationship, but OUT, period. Call me bluff  I guess I am still being too easy on him. Given that I have never told him to do so much in so little time.... 



cdbaker said:


> Also, don't answer too many questions about your trip. I think it'd be best to leave him wondering a bit. I think it's ok to tell him where you are going (roughly. He doesn't need to know specifics. Like "I'm going to Hawaii to surf" but probably doesn't need to know the exact hotel), how long you will be gone, if you'll be alone or with friends (probably don't need to say with whom) and leave him an emergency phone number to reach you at. Only for emergencies!


He asked who will I be with and he asked if I am going away to look for work opportunities. Maybe he worries I don't come back? When the first time I told him I want to separate because of 'all the hurts and reasons', the first thing he asked me was 'have you met somebody else?'. He pressed on about who will I be going and such, I told him I am going alone and may stay for Christmas because the flight ticket coming back the week before are expensive. That means I won't be at his family's gathering. Actually I am looking forward to it, going snowmobiling and skiing  Sometimes I really think I am much happier alone.


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## cdbaker

I think it's completely understandable and reasonable for him to ask you questions, including being fearful that perhaps you have met someone else and are cheating on him. Typically most spouses don't just announce they are going on a vacation alone without there being some dishonesty involved. So I wouldn't be offended by that or anything, he has good reason to be concerned.

Have you already left? Whether you have or haven't, isn't there still plenty of time to let him know that you want him to be employed by the time you return?


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## temperance

Yes I told him I want him to find a job when I come back. No I haven't left ;( wasn't able to figure out my costs, going away Christmas time is expensive. So I won't be leaving until the second week of Dec and have to come back a week before Christmas. I stayed home one day, he still got up at 3pm and when he saw me home he was surprised. Other than 'job search' and 'I will call the driving school', we are back to 'normal' ;'( He took cash out of my purse to get smokes and such ;( I hate it hate it hate it.


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## turnera

Just start putting your money aside as you can, in an account he can't touch, and when you have enough, JUST MOVE!


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## PBear

So stop leaving cash around so he gets the idea that if he wants stuff, he's going to have to earn money for it. Heck, take it one step further and set up your own bank account that only you have access to. Get your paychecks deposited in there. Pay the bills out of there. And if he asks why there's no money in the "joint account", tell him it's his turn to put some money in the joint account. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## temperance

*Re: Cannot kick non working husband out - poped the D word*



2galsmom said:


> There is no easy "out", ask anyone here.


 I am about to file a divorce. Yes I pop the D word this morning. The fight actually started by me, yes I woke him up and asked him if he has anything he wants to tell me. 

I have a sense that he knows we still have money from the house sold just don't know how much. Anyhow, like I said everything for him was 'back to normal', and was getting dinner, smokes, snacks and just everything like before. Yesterday I needed to pay my parents back 10K I borrowed, during dinner I told him I just pay back my parents. Instantly he said so we have 40K left. I didn't confront him about why would he looked into MY account? I told him how this money can go fast and... once again... layout the expenses we need to pay. 

My fear got into me this morning. Also thinking about how he stopped the 'little things' last few days, like I said kiss me on the cheek when I go to bed. I think I know why...that he is angry / passive aggressive / unhappy about me telling him we have no money and push him to find work . This morning I was just thinking to myself, and I HAVE TO talk to him it bothers me soooo much. I woke him up. Of course I know he would get pissed I woke him up. I confronted him about looking into my account, and I confronted him about is that why he is so relax. I asked him about the job he was going to apply last week, he said "I told you I am going to apply today". He then go on about he is always the one take the dog out (that's another long story), and said "I obviously don't want him to know how much we have". He said he saw by accident. Anyhow, I truly freaked out on him, the more he 'defense' himself the angrier I get. I told him 'do you understand how much I resent you'. I asked him if he wants me to leave him! What he was doing IS telling me I really should leave him  Anyhow... he continued to defense himself and I screamed 'I want a divorce'. Twice. 

He said "Maybe I will pack myself and leave today" and took the dog out. I didn't say anything and left for work.


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## turnera

Boy won't he be surprised when you really DO divorce him?


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## cdbaker

Yeah, more and more I keep getting convinced that he won't be able to step up to the challenge. (Meaning the challenge of your confronting him to get a job, get a drivers license, blah blah blah, or else move out.) 

I'd say if he is angry enough and willing to move out on his own, ENCOURAGE him to do so. Get him to move out and change the locks on the front door. Cut off his access to your bank accounts/credit cards. When you get home this evening, if he is still there, start by saying something like, "I thought you were going to pack up and leave today?!" to show that you really do want him to go.

Hopefully he'll go to his mom's house, find out how embarrassing and pathetic it is for a jobless, broke middle-aged man to live at home with his parents and really finally experience the reality of the situation he is in. Maybe then he will wake up and realize exactly what he has to do in order to "win" you back. But in the meantime, you'll be able to go into 180 mode, de-stress a lot, and not have to worry about him.


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## cdbaker

Yeah, more and more I keep getting convinced that he won't be able to step up to the challenge. (Meaning the challenge of your confronting him to get a job, get a drivers license, blah blah blah, or else move out.) 

I'd say if he is angry enough and willing to move out on his own, ENCOURAGE him to do so. Get him to move out and change the locks on the front door. Cut off his access to your bank accounts/credit cards. When you get home this evening, if he is still there, start by saying something like, "I thought you were going to pack up and leave today?!" to show that you really do want him to go.

Hopefully he'll go to his mom's house, find out how embarrassing and pathetic it is for a jobless, broke middle-aged man to live at home with his parents and really finally experience the reality of the situation he is in. Maybe then he will wake up and realize exactly what he has to do in order to "win" you back. But in the meantime, you'll be able to go into 180 mode, de-stress a lot, and not have to worry about him.


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## temperance

OK... he just text me telling me he got a job and need to go to work in two hours, and called me telling me so who should take the dog out like giving me a guilt trip ;( 

I guess he is not moving out then. 

Cdbaker, you think he will try to 'win' me back? I feel that he is doing all these with displease. Part of me thinks this is over and should be over, part of me think if I should give him another chance. But... by giving another chance what does that really mean? My feelings for him has change, and I am sure so is he.


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## turnera

Funny how he can find a job in a few hours...

Don't bite. The dog will survive, if he truly IS going to work somewhere, til you get home.


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## cdbaker

"Funny how he can find a job in a few hours..."

No kidding!

Temperance: I said "maybe" he'll try to win you back. But that notion was based on the idea that he is kicked out and forced to realize the full reality of the situation he is in. If he isn't able to understand and respect how good he has had it all this time, and how much you have struggled, then he'll probably continue to act resentful over being asked to get the job, a drivers license, help out more around the house, etc., and will do immature things like try to give you a guilt trip over the dog.

So yes, the fact that he is trying to make you feel bad now tells me that he still doesn't get it. Acting like that shows that he thinks everything was just fine the way it was before and that he is only getting this job because you have made him get it, and he'll resent you for it. I really hope this doesn't turn out to be the case, but if he doesn't start by apologizing profusely tonight for it having taken him so long to finally take a job, especially now that it is so obvious that he could have gotten a job a LONG time ago, then I would be very concerned. I'm not sure whether to suggest that be supportive with a hug and a thank you for finally getting the job, or to walk in and ignore him so that he can see that he shouldn't deserve a treat for doing what he should have done a long time ago...

You might consider still going home and just directly asking him why he didn't move out, after he said he would? That would kind of show that you aren't impressed by a grown man finally getting a job. By the way, he applied for the job today, got the job today, and starts work today as well? What kind of a company does that? I'm guessing it's a temp agency or something like that?

Lastly, don't let things like the dog be a problem, and don't let him slack off on his other responsibilities just because he's employed. He still needs to get that drivers license and contribute fairly to the household chores. Don't let him use the new job as an excuse that he can't still contribute at home.


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## temperance

cdbaker said:


> Lastly, don't let things like the dog be a problem, and don't let him slack off on his other responsibilities just because he's employed. He still needs to get that drivers license and contribute fairly to the household chores. Don't let him use the new job as an excuse that he can't still contribute at home.


He has been working for two days now. Shift from 4pm - 2am, so we don't really see each other anymore! You are correct. He stopped ALL the chores, stop the little sweet thing he does, he sent me text message during supper time asked me if I have walked the dog. 2:30am he got home he would turn on ALL the lights, woke me up and asked me if I feed the dog, if I walked the dog, banging drawers, searching for laundry, complaint about food smell at home. When I got up in the morning he got up and called me pet name again... only to ask me if I can leave him some cash. He would also text me to tell me what grocery is missing like 'you'll need to get sugar, milk, dog food on your way home'. 

Now I would get home every night, bed's not made, dishes from the night/morning in the sink, laundry everywhere. 

Last night he text me the same about the dog, like reminding me that I better do it. I have a bout of suicidal thoughts last night and dive into this deep depression. I had work till 11pm the night before and was very tired and lack of sleep because he kept me up when he got home. I text him back told him I am going to bed I feel sick. I didn't make any food but had half a cup of instant noodles. Anyhow, he came back and did the same thing, was angry at me. 

This morning (or last night), I have made a decision to file for divorce. I am so sure of myself this has to be done! I have had it. Before it was the 'little sweet things' he does that keeps me going back. Now what is left? 

And then this afternoon he text me and ask me if I feel better


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## turnera

Abusers excel in feeding you little crumbs every time they sense you're drifting away. To get you to doubt yourself and not leave him.


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## temperance

turnera said:


> Abusers excel in feeding you little crumbs every time they sense you're drifting away. To get you to doubt yourself and not leave him.


You think that's what he is doing, that he know exactly and intentionally do that? 

He text me at work yesterday, "Hi baby I miss you". I didn't response. He text me again asked if I am ok. I didn't response much I was sleeping out of depression and exhaustion. 

He didn't make a fuzz out of anything last night when he got home, he just asked what have we eaten, I just told him everybody's are fed, I didn't eat I am not hungry. He even kiss me again and shut the light. 

He caught me got up getting ready for work this morning. He wants me to show some affection (not sex), just the normal thing... kiss him before I leave for work that sort of thing. I didn't. My mind was going a thousand mile a minute at that time I want to avoid him at all costs. He came out and kissed me, well I am obviously not willing but really he was standing right there on the way to the door. He obviously know I am 'withdrawing' and said 'what's wrong?' with an attitude (not concern), I just told him I am leaving now and walked out the door. He gave me attitude and said 'OK, whatever, see you later'. 

I can't handle this anymore. I am emotionally ill... and physically becoming ill! It is sooo difficult to drag myself out to face the world, my clients, employees, works stuff is killing me. 

I cannot handle anymore little attitude, I cannot show any affection to him I am hurt and scared and just very anxious when he is around. No physical abuse, not that he is verbally abusing me neither. But every little good thing he does, I get anxious because I just don't know how to react to it. 

And yes, I do feel like I am in an abusive situation even though I really don't think I am. I feel the exact same 'trauma' when I was living with my parents when I was young, that was truly abusive, that I felt so stuck, and that's when I was facing with two choices... I have to get out either by suicide or by just ran away as far as I can. I didn't have the courage to kill myself, so I made the choice to ran away when I was 13, I didn't just ran away to friends next door, I ran away to the other side of the world. 

I really don't know what to do now, how to tell him I really want out, but financially it will leave me desolate, and I feel that I am just not mentally strong enough to survive with all these right now.


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## temperance

turnera said:


> To get you to doubt yourself and not leave him.


And yes I am doubting myself not to leave him  
Maybe I am the drama queen?


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## turnera

No, you are the victim of his abusive and passive aggressive acts - the he himself is probably not aware of - not a drama queen.

Educate yourself on how people manipulate other people. For example, when he senses you pulling back, he becomes sweet, apologetic, and loving. Voila! Back to you doubting yourself.


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## temperance

I think I finally got it! He wants the comfort, and he KNOWS I can provide IF I want to. Whether he loves me or not, he doesn't want to be 'uncomfortable'. I have been allowing him to behave that way for so long, for him all of a sudden I freaked out on him... he is dumb founded?! He does not want to change, he just doesn't have the ability to understand what he needs to change and why. 

He is nice to me again, but I think he saw me hasn't make a fuzz out of anything, everything is 'back to normal' yet again. Going on the computer as usual, he has been telling me this 'business idea' he wants to start with one of my online buddy, telling me this guy is earning 800 bucks a month income hosting some game server and he wants in. Well... anyhow I am tired of helping, getting him to really do anything worthwhile in the 'gaming' industry. 

I told him I am going away this Friday. He asked me to leave him my bank card. He asked me to leave him money for taking the bus to work, lunch and stuff everyday.


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## turnera

Leave him $30 cash. Any more would be enabling.


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## hope4family

Do not leave your bank card with him. He can potentially clear you out. Just a few bucks. Do the 180 and move on.


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## PBear

Just curious... Why doesn't he have his own bank card or drivers license?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## temperance

PBear said:


> Just curious... Why doesn't he have his own bank card or drivers license?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When we met he was working and have a bank account.... for whatever reason I do not remember, we moved in together and I opened up a joint account and since then he has no bank account of his own. He also stopped working when we moved in together so he closes his account. I have given him his bank card, but he never managed to go activate his card. So the routine becomes... he wait for me to get home at night, if I have no cash to buy food, smokes, whatever, we would either go out together and I will pay using my card, or I would tell him I am too tired, just take my card and take xxx amount from xxx account. He knows all my pass code. 

Drivers license, I didn't even know he has no drivers license until we moved in together and you know how we need to provide IDs to rent the place. He was already driving my car at that point. I have been nagging him to get his license. So ones again, routine sets in.


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## PBear

temperance said:


> When we met he was working and have a bank account.... for whatever reason I do not remember, we moved in together and I opened up a joint account and since then he has no bank account of his own. He also stopped working when we moved in together so he closes his account. I have given him his bank card, but he never managed to go activate his card. So the routine becomes... he wait for me to get home at night, if I have no cash to buy food, smokes, whatever, we would either go out together and I will pay using my card, or I would tell him I am too tired, just take my card and take xxx amount from xxx account. He knows all my pass code.
> 
> Drivers license, I didn't even know he has no drivers license until we moved in together and you know how we need to provide IDs to rent the place. He was already driving my car at that point. I have been nagging him to get his license. So ones again, routine sets in.


Sorry, I don't see it as "routine" setting in. I see it as "enabling" setting in. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear

Btw, have you ever investigated what the penalty is for driving without a license or insurance is? You are possibly looking at the car being impounded and thousands of dollars in fines and court costs. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Good time to change the passcodes on all your accounts.


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## 3Xnocharm

PBear said:


> Just curious... Why doesn't he have his own bank card or drivers license?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because he is a giant, useless loser.


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## temperance

I once again didn't make dinner last night so when he came home he has to make his own food. I didn't do the dishes neither. Yes I did make steak dinner and his favorite the night before so he has food when he came home. I feel guilty treating him badly  Anyhow, he was angry again yesterday/today obviously. 

The 180... how do you do that? I have been pretty much trying to ignore him and go about doing my own business. The more I do it the more he treat me like sh$t  And the more he thinks I treat him like sh$t!

I just text him and tell him I will be home late because I need to go to my mom, he text me back "don't be too late the dog needs to eat".


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## temperance

What should I do? I can't handle his attitude anymore


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## turnera

Isn't it obvious?


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## LongWalk

He is so child like. Sounds almost mentally ill. The dog is a child that he loves and you neglect. I would ask him if he loves the dog. When he replies 'yes', then you can follow with the question: "When we divorce do you want to keep it?"

Do you smoke?

Why support that habit?

Your husband is clueless. His lack of insight makes him unsuitable for any job that requires dealing with people.

I wouldn't call him a loser but rather dysfunctional. It is not your job to be his social worker.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## cdbaker

I'd say first, if you haven't already, lay out your expectations. That he continue to work and make his own money because you aren't going to be providing anymore for a long while until you've decided that you can trust him again. Stop supporting his negative habits. (smoking, alcohol, fun money, etc.) Stop giving him rides altogether, I know you have already made clear to him that he needs to get his own drivers license and car. Inform him that he will still be expected to do at least half of the chores, and that him finally getting a job is absolutely no excuse for him stopping household chores/responsibilities.

Then, commit to the 180. That means *stop worrying about him and his needs, and focusing on your own instead.* Don't respond to texts or calls that you find offensive, like if he is angry about something or making unreasonable demands/requests, etc. Don't give him any more money. When he asks, just steadfastly restate your previous assertion that you won't be giving him money until you feel that you are able to trust him again, which he can try to earn back by accepting the responsibilities that you laid out above. Don't go out of your way to do anything that you have usually done in the past purely for the sake of preventing him from getting angry, enabling a bad behavior, etc. 

Mostly however, the 180 is about *focusing on your own needs and wellbeing.* Take the time you need to relax and heal. Start eating better, exercising when possible, engage in social activities with friends, take time to HAVE FUN and enjoy yourself. Just don't concern yourself with his problems. Again just make your expectations clear to him one time and then don't respond to his childish reactions that we've all seen here.

I will say that I doubt he is 100% knowingly trying to take advantage of you intentionally. I think you've just enabled him so long, and he's become so accustomed to it slowly over time, that he doesn't see it as taking advantage of you anymore. When he complains about things like there not being dinner for him at 2:30 in the morning, or feels entitled to waking you in the middle of the night or demanding that you give him money or drive him places, I imagine he just has no idea how disrespectful and ungrateful he is because you have outwardly shown him that you are fine with all of it for so long. When you shut it all down on him with the 180, he'll probably go through stages of being angry because he doesn't understand why you are doing this "to him," then maybe you'll see the kind words and nice little things he does for a while in an attempt to satisfy you out of concern that you are just mad about something and he can "nice" his way out of it. Then hopefully at some point your earlier words of expectations and responsibilities will click and maybe he'll change. Maybe he won't.

Make sure you are extra clear on the issue of his chores/other responsibilities. I could easily see someone like him, with the level of enabling he's received over the years, thinking that now that he finally got a job, that he can let everything else go. That was sort of the biggest issue on your list, so I could see him thinking that because he's finally accomplished that, that you will be satisfied for a while and you might not mind him stopping from helping out in the house. He might figure that the job is now an excuse to not do that stuff after all. You have to be VERY very clear that it is NOT an excuse, and real men have jobs and help out in the house as well. He isn't your child.


Look at it this way, whether you decide to move forward in pursuing the divorce or not, the 180 will help you be better prepared either way. If you go the divorce route, you'll already be focused on yourself and emotionally distancing yourself from his abuse. If you decide you'll give him a chance, then the 180 will have probably had some effect on him as well by getting him to shape up. It's win-win in an otherwise unpleasant situation.


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## temperance

He is just so selfish I was too blinded to see was I? I got to work late, he just came home it is now 2:30, he was all anxious and upset because he left his cell phone at work. You know... I have never consider he may have an EA? He doesn't go out he was constantly on the computer, and he can't live without his cell phone now.


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## turnera

What difference does it make if he is cheating? 

You deserve better than him and you need to move on.


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## cdbaker

Maybe he is involved in some way with someone else or not. As turnera said, I don't think it matters much if you aren't sure if you want him around anyway.

I will say, I am most certainly NOT involved with anyone else but I would be incredibly angry and frustrated with myself if I left my phone at work, or home, or wherever. I think I, like a lot of people these days, probably have an unhealthy addiction to my smartphone...

As far as his selfishness, do remember that you have enabled him for a very very long time now. A perfectly relationally healthy person who enters a long term relationship with a habitual enabler can very easily become selfish like your husband over time. So don't beat yourself up over it or even assume that he's always been this way, because it's very possible that he wasn't like that when you first met and began your relationship with him. In fact, I would very confidently say that he must have been much less selfish when you first met him, at the very least. I think knowing that is a good thing because it means it is possible to undo the years of negative reinforcement that came from the enabling.

Possible anyway, definitely not certain.


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## temperance

I am done trying. I am back from my trip. He did sent me text message throughout my trip, he would text me and told me he miss me, he sent me a youtube video 'hard to say I am sorry' by chicago, and text me say hi and all. But then if I don't response for a few hours or so he would get snappy like 'it got to walk the dog doesn't matter if I am sick or not', 'It doesn't matter I don't know who you are with'... etc. I HATE when he makes me feel guilty about letting him suffer or whatever. When I came home the car engine light was on, the tire low was on and also a big crack on the windshield. He did text me telling me 'the engine light came on, you gotta take care of it when you are back'. Well... I was furious at that moment but you know.... like you said cdbaker he doesn't even think about what was wrong by telling me that! He has been telling me to take care of s*it all these years and I never pull a feat! I would be like "Ok, I am on it" attitude!

Of course there was no pick me up from the airport. BUT... when I got home there was a big thing of flowers on the kitchen table, with a card said 'Here my love is 12 fowers one for each year we have been together, love xxxx'.'  I am a true sucker of these things :'( BUT... no sex, no affection no intimacy. 

Well... these few days I am back however, thing hasn't change. He go about 'tugging' me to bed, kiss me on the cheek and go on his PC game. He told me his work is just temp work, they don't have 'inventory' this week so he has no work until next monday. The contract is only till end of Jan or something like that. 

Now I still need to take care of the car, he reminds me of that. He still live and act like 'before' except for the constant snappy! WTF! When I confront him about that is he blaming me, he would say 'I am just tired'

Frankly I have had enough to try to communicate with him, make him understand or hoping he will change. 

Call me Mid-Life crisis... I just don't feel like working anymore, period  I don't feel like doing anything at all! 

Another thing, I was too oblivious about his online game. So is it important for me to find out if he maybe having an EA with some online gals to trigger his behavior and all my suffering!


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## LongWalk

He is a dysfunctional little boy. End it.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Openminded

You enable his behavior. You are the Mommy and he is the spoiled brat. Is that how you want to spend the rest of your life?


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## PBear

Why is he driving your car when he doesn't have a license? You do realize the liability risk you're exposing yourself to? Besides the potential fines, having your vehicle impounded, etc... If he gets in an accident, your insurance won't cover you.

C


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## turnera

Why spend your life with someone who makes you feel bad?


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## temperance

PBear said:


> Why is he driving your car when he doesn't have a license? You do realize the liability risk you're exposing yourself to? Besides the potential fines, having your vehicle impounded, etc... If he gets in an accident, your insurance won't cover you.
> 
> C


I am well aware of that, and have told / nag him numerous time that he is putting me at huge risks.


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## temperance

turnera said:


> Why spend your life with someone who makes you feel bad?


Because he loves me and I feel bad hurting him  I feel irresponsible somehow just find a place and move out and leaving him fending for himself. 

Another thing is finance. It is always coming back to finance, I am planning though. But just that if he change for me... I hope... then maybe I don't need to go through all the hassle for a split.


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## PBear

temperance said:


> I am well aware of that, and have told / nag him numerous time that he is putting me at huge risks.


I'm still in the dark... Why does he have access to a key for it?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cdbaker

Yeah at this point I'd say he isn't going to change without a massive wake-up call delivered by telling him that you want him to move out. Cut him off in every way. Financially, emotionally, additional support, etc.

He at least has a job now. He'll realize he has to have money to survive so hopefully he won't do anything stupid to lose his job. He'll have to figure out transportation, perhaps using public transportation (if your community has a bus/train system) or getting rides from friends/co-workers. He can crash with his parents or with a friend. He can figure it all out.

Honestly I hate suggesting to anyone that they should get a divorce, I'm the type who is always hopeful, especially for guys like your husband whom most would probably write off as a "lost cause" probably because I know that most folks probably wrote me off as a "lost cause" several years ago and I know I have turned myself around. So I won't jump on the "get a divorce" bandwagon but I would say a long-term separation is needed at the very least. He needs to learn to respect you, cherish you, be a true equal teammate, etc. and he is not going to be capable of learning any of that until he can learn to be independent.

He has proven that he can't do that while he is living with you, so since you are done giving him any more ultimatum's/last chances, you just need to kick him out and let him fend for himself. Give it six months to a year if you are willing to do that. He'll need at least that much time to get on his feet and realize that life isn't easy, that it requires hard work and can be stressful. I think ONLY from figuring that out will he ever be able to really truly realize exactly how much he was taking advantage of you, and how poorly he was treating you. This isn't just a "relationship wake-up call" that so many spouses often need, this is combined with a "LIFE wake-up call".

The reality is that he is going to get that one way or another. Whether you divorce him or give him 6-12 months to have his wake-up call and figure it out, he is going to learn independence and come to realize how lucky he has been all these years to have you. Other advantages to choosing a 6-12 month separation vs. divorce now:

1. You'll get an opportunity to see if he can again become the man you once fell in love with, or not. Closure is a wonderful thing.
2. Him eventually being independent, having a decent job, vehicle, apartment, etc. will make a potential divorce settlement/alimony MUCH less costly for you than it would be today. (He probably won't settle for a temp job, living with mom, taking the bus in foul weather, etc. for very long after all)
3. You'll probably need at least that much time to recover from this emotionally, financially, etc. anyway. In that time you can move on as if you are going to divorce, focusing on yourself, your health, your happiness, your financial security, etc.
4. I imagine it wouldn't be an issue anyway, but if you feel a need to start dating right away, you can choose to make that a part of your separation agreement if you like.

So... just a few thoughts, I hope their helpful!


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## Openminded

temperance said:


> I am well aware of that, and have told / nag him numerous time that he is putting me at huge risks.


You need to do more than nag. He's irresponsible so you need to make sure he can't use your car. Take the keys with you or hide the car or whatever you need to do. He acts like a little boy and you let him. I doubt he wants change in his life so don't just hope it will happen. Make it happen.


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## clipclop2

You aren't helpless. Stop acting as though you are. 

Take his car key. You are the one being irresponsible in that one. 

If you are done, be done. Tell him you would appreciate him stopping with gifts you don't want. That money can go toward the car. 

Tell him not to waste his time or money because he will need every dime to survive on his own. 

Then file.


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## turnera

temperance said:


> Because he loves me


:rofl:

You're kidding, right? I HOPE you are being sarcastic.

Else, you have a very sick, warped opinion of what love is.


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## turnera

temperance said:


> I feel irresponsible somehow just find a place and move out and leaving him fending for himself.


Excuse me? What, is he THREE?

Come on, temperance, at least be honest with yourself. You don't want to be alone so you convince yourself he needs you.

He's a grown-ass man who is completely capable of supporting himself - IF HE HAD TO.

Of course, he doesn't have to. He's got a wife gullible enough or needy enough (no offense) to treat him like a baby. Why would he give up THAT lifestyle?


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## turnera

clipclop2 said:


> Tell him you would appreciate him stopping with gifts you don't want. That money can go toward the car.


Or you can sell them on eBay and put the money in your own savings account. 

That he can't access.


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## cdbaker

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You're kidding, right? I HOPE you are being sarcastic.
> 
> Else, you have a very sick, warped opinion of what love is.


I disagree. I bet he does love her very much. He just has no idea how much he is using her, how poorly he is treating her. He thinks he can ignore the biggest most challenging problems she has with him by being sweet on her every now and then. Honestly though, from our very very limited scope of their relationship, I'm very confident that he does love her and extremely doubtful that he is cheating in some form.


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## cdbaker

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You're kidding, right? I HOPE you are being sarcastic.
> 
> Else, you have a very sick, warped opinion of what love is.


Just to clarify however, the fact that I think he does in fact love OP doesn't change anything else I have said. He's still a child in a man's body, she still enables him to be that way, so honestly I can't even blame him very much for operating the way he has. She has to wake him up, and just as he has proven that he can't "get it" while remaining at home with OP, so has she proven that she can't bring herself to deliver the wake up call to him while he is still living with her. So essentially, they both need him to be gone in order for both to "wake up" and figure it out.

Lastly, remember that even the wife beating maniacs you see on old episodes of "Cops" late at night usually love their partners very much, they just have other problems that cause them to not be able to show it properly.


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## turnera

How do you love someone and watch them being so miserable without doing something about it?


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## cdbaker

When you believe that their misery is their own fault. For abusers, they believe that their partner "made" them do it, that their actions/choices are the cause of the abuse. In their screwed up thinking, they believe that the abuse is done as a way to teach the partner a lesson so that whatever instigated it won't be repeated.

In OP's case, I think he's just 90% oblivious to her misery, partly because I think OP goes out of her way to shield him from it. She feels bad/guilty about inconveniencing or upsetting her husband, and struggles to hold him responsible for anything. From the way she reports her husband responding, he seems to act as though he is just trying to apply relational bandaids to the situation with things like flowers, gifts, a one-off round of chores, loving messages/notes, etc. So I think he's either a moron, or she does a very good job of trying to keep him from seeing and experiencing her pain/stress/guilt, or both.

Here is an example of how I sort of see this situation:

My wife could be mad as hell with me every day that I'm not taking out the trash. Every day she is stressed, appears frustrated, maybe a little short tempered, etc. because she feels like she keeps asking me nicely to take out the trash and I keep forgetting after one or two times. Finally one day she says in a very kind way, "Honey, I'd really appreciate it if you would take out the trash when it fills up. I'm so busy with so many other things, it would really help me out." She hopes against hope that I'll understand and start taking out the trash without it becoming an issue again. 

I love my wife of course, so if her simple request for me to take out the trash will help her feel better from this stressful/frustrating/short tempered misery she seems to be in lately, I'll happily do it. Not having any idea that the trash request is related to that stress/frustration/misery she's feeling, I take out the trash a few times for a week or two and then maybe I sort of forget every now and then and eventually I'm not doing it anymore. Her stress/frustration/etc. all come back stronger, now even more hurt over my having not stuck to taking it out AGAIN, feeling ignored or unappreciated AGAIN. I Still have no idea what is causing her to feel/act this way because she is still trying to protect me for some reason. I notice the stress, and not knowing it's cause I decide to bring her flowers this week or maybe the week before I did some extra house work without her having to ask, or made her hot chocolate and offered her a foot rub the night before, etc., hoping I can improve her mood a little bit. I still have no idea that the trash is the main issue, I'm just trying to do the "good husband" thing and be sweet on her here and there to try to cheer her up because I do love her and would much prefer to see her cheerful. I might even try asking her what has been bothering her lately and she responds with "nothing" or "you wouldn't understand" or something like that.

Eventually she explodes one day about the trash. To her, she can't figure out why I have been ignoring her request and finding the trash full again finally triggers her. Why I would not understand why she is so miserable. Why I can't do a simple thing for her that she thinks she has made incredibly crystal clear to me as being incredibly important to her. You'd think that I should just take her anger explosion and be over-the-top apologetic right? But to me, she just exploded all over me about a seemingly minor thing, completely out of the blue, making her reaction WAY over the top, way out of proportion to the "crime." To me, just because she has been really stressed out and frustrated lately for reasons that have not been made clear to me, does not give her the right to explode on me over something as silly as forgetting that she wants me to be taking out the trash regularly. So I apologize about the trash, but am quickly angrily defending myself by calling her out on her angry outburst. After all, I've done nothing to deserve that sort of treatment, have I?

She can't believe that I would be defensive when I have so clearly been ignoring her misery and it's cause for so long. To me, I feel like I am at my wits end, being frustrated myself that I can't figure out what is making this woman so miserable and now she feels entitled to take it out on me. Hasn't she seen the little things I've been trying to do to cheer her up? Hasn't she seen the little gifts, the extra chores I did last week? Have I done anything so incredibly wrong to deserve this? Plus I asked her a few days ago what was bothering her and she said "nothing", so why is she suddenly exploding on me now?


That's the sort of situation I think is going on here, only on a larger scale. Of course, I understand that his not being able to figure out that being jobless, without a drivers license, spending all day playing video games and indulging in vices like drinking and smoking every day, while expecting her to still do most of the household chores, etc. is not quite the same as being oblivious that your wife would like you to take out the trash. But if she is as enabling and protective as the OP is, then I could see how he could be oblivious. Especially if he isn't the smartest crayon in the box, which sure seems to be the case here.


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## LongWalk

I agree with CD. He may love her but that is not the deciding factor here. By divorcing him OP's relationship with husband may improve dramatically. He may also be bitter and hateful. 

He may not function on his own but that is natural selections way of preventing him from passing on his genes.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## temperance

cdbaker said:


> She feels bad/guilty about inconveniencing or upsetting her husband, and struggles to hold him responsible for anything.


You have it right cdbaker. Knowing the situation and what needs to be done doesn't mean I can do it.... And you can understand then how I would struggle to leave him, kick him out or separate... I am just so afraid of his reaction, and yes feels guilty. 

Well yes something I did say 'nothing' and retrieve myself, I don't want to say the wrong thing when I am emotional so I tends to just walk away from it.


----------



## cdbaker

temperance said:


> You have it right cdbaker. Knowing the situation and what needs to be done doesn't mean I can do it.... And you can understand then how I would struggle to leave him, kick him out or separate... I am just so afraid of his reaction, and yes feels guilty.
> 
> Well yes something I did say 'nothing' and retrieve myself, I don't want to say the wrong thing when I am emotional so I tends to just walk away from it.


Totally understood, and I wish some folks here wouldnt be so harsh on their criticism, given that it seems pretty obvious that you understand that you are a big part of the problem, but just struggling to do anything about it. (which makes sense, given that this is exactly the problem, your inability to hold him responsible for his actions, to not enable him) Honestly I think that is where independant counseling would help you. To help you find the confidence and strength to do what you need to do, in the best possible way. I'm sure there are a lot of things that are keeping you from being able to do what needs done, like fear, lack of confidence, codependance, uncertainty, etc., and a good IC should be able to help you with those issues far more than a forum made up of a lot of angry betrayed spouses and ex-spouses, myself included!


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## turnera

fwiw, I am not a BS. I do have a lot of experience with abuse. Bancroft says that abusers THINK they love because the feeling they feel toward the victim is so intense, they mistake it for love. But it's not; it's fear and self-loathing and mega-desire to keep someone, no matter what, to prove they're lovable.


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## clipclop2

Does ythis mean she is taking the keys away from him? 

Cause that's the only important thing here


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## cdbaker

clipclop2 said:


> Does ythis mean she is taking the keys away from him?
> 
> Cause that's the only important thing here


No it's not the only important thing, though yes it really should be part of any solution at this point.


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## temperance

New twist in my situation here!! 
Our fight became a lot more bitter after I came back from my trip. 
We didn't really talk to each other on Christmas day... we didn't have Christmas  Step daughter didn't come over and we didn't go to in-laws like every year. No gift exchange, nothing. In the morning (early afternoon) of boxing day, my dog wanted to go out and was whining a bit (he had been whining because a neighbor's dog is in heat)... my husband got up angry, started yelling at the dog and slamming doors. I was upset of course, sitting in the kitchen having a bowl of soup. He took the dog out, when he was about to walk out the door, he told me 'we need to get him fix'! 

Well... I was very upset, depressed and just have had enough. I freaked out! I told him why do I need to get him fix? Why couldn't YOU take him to the vet and get him fix? He was very angry and yelled at me and said 'he is OUR dog'. We went into a shouting match. I yelled at him and said is he telling me to take him to the vet, why don't HE take him to go get fix and pay for it. Why do I need to call the vet! I went on and yelled why don't you pay rent! And he yelled, he is OUR dog, not YOUR dog, not MY dog? He yelled what are WE? I was freaking out and I said we are nothing! He said 'maybe I just pack my bag and leave, I can't stand you treating me like sh*t anymore'. I was really freaking out at that point. I started screaming at him and crying, and I started pounding on the table so hard that the soup flip over, and throwing stuff,.... I truly lost it. I was screaming at him 'is that how you love me', that he feels I treat him like sh*t all these years, that I work my as$ off and take care of everything, that I pushed him to find work and not let him drive my car and he feels that I treat him like sh*t now. He took off with the dog, leaving me weeping on the floor. I bruised and cut myself during the drama. At that point I was suicidal, thoughts and plans just came through my mind. I took my drivers license and health card and took the car and drove off while they were still out. Anyway, I drove around aimlessly, was thinking to drive off the cliff, ice storm... accident you know. I calmed down a bit and decided to go back to my office and maybe stay there for the night. I did look up crisis centers around my office and see if I can get some help before I hurt myself, and my office is open the next day on the 27th... I couldn't let anyone see me so messed up. I feel pathetic. I feel that I am not only depressed, weak, messed up, and a drama queen. I feel like a psychopath, that somehow I lead my life to where it is now. 

I chat online with a stranger for a bit, she told me to go home. So I went home that evening. The cop was there because my husband called the cop for 'missing person', later I found there was also report on 'domestic dispute' from the neighbor therefore the cop was at our place.

The cop kept me out in the apartment and questioned me about where I was about, what exactly happened, what did we fight about, did I have plan to hurt myself, was I hurt, etc. Long story short, he took me to the hospital. He was very nice about the whole thing, he gave me his contact info and told me to call him anytime if ANYTHING happens. 

At the hospital, a doc and a crisis counselor came see me. Like you guys suggested, the counselor said the ONLY way is stop paying for anything for him, cold turkey. But... as you can see it doesn't work, it makes the situation a thousand times worse  

Long story short, the crisis counselor told me my husband is emotionally abusive. She tried to explain to me that abusive doesn't need to be physical. She told me he is manipulative all these years so I continue support him and his addictions, he uses guilt and fear to achieve that. She said maybe he was depressed and have his own issues, but she is sure he knows what he has been doing to secure his 'comfort'. He doesn't need to be physically or verbally abusive. He treat me sweet and nice or use other means to guilt me into staying with him, if it doesn't work he uses intimidation like yelling at the dog and gets angry so I fear to leave him. She said if I feel fear to leave the relationship, and I feel that the only way out is not to go home or to kill myself, this relationship is unhealthy and he is emotionally abusive. 

They kept me in the hospital for the night, and recommended me to stay at the shelter instead of going home fear that I will hurt myself. 

*Here's the real twist*
I choose to go home from the hospital the next day instead of the shelter. When I got home, he was still in bed. He was for sure still upset at the whole thing. I slept on the couch.... when he got up he 'poked' me and asked me if he can take the car to work. He already found the spare keys for the car. He didn't talk to me and went to work. I was so depressed and pretty much retired on the couch the whole time. 

After another day, the police department called, left a message on both of our phones. I didn't know I thought the call was just a follow up with me. Anyways.... he was all nice to me, the day of 30th. He hugged me and said he loves me very much, he went out to get me cough medicine, got some groceries, he asked if we want to go out for dinner, and he paid for all that! I thought he really wants to work things out and finally 'gets it'. During dinner I told him the cop left me a message, they might want to come visit. He then told me he got a message from them too. I was suspicious of his 'truthfulness' to treat me so nice. 

He continues to be very nice to me these few days! It is like when we first dating.. its THAT nice! He even initiate sex the last two days! Two days in a roll can you believe that?!

The cop and a crisis worker from a women shelter came knock on our door yesterday to check on us/me. I told them he has been really nice to me these few days. 

I feel bad... he is not a monster. Manipulative? Guilt? Or are we working things out now? He is still driving with no license though.


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## 3Xnocharm

temperance said:


> *
> Long story short, the crisis counselor told me my husband is emotionally abusive. She tried to explain to me that abusive doesn't need to be physical. She told me he is manipulative all these years so I continue support him and his addictions, he uses guilt and fear to achieve that. She said maybe he was depressed and have his own issues, but she is sure he knows what he has been doing to secure his 'comfort'. He doesn't need to be physically or verbally abusive. He treat me sweet and nice or use other means to guilt me into staying with him, if it doesn't work he uses intimidation like yelling at the dog and gets angry so I fear to leave him. She said if I feel fear to leave the relationship, and I feel that the only way out is not to go home or to kill myself, this relationship is unhealthy and he is emotionally abusive.
> *
> 
> *Everything she said is 100% spot on. *
> 
> *
> After another day, the police department called, left a message on both of our phones. I didn't know I thought the call was just a follow up with me. Anyways.... he was all nice to me, the day of 30th. He hugged me and said he loves me very much, he went out to get me cough medicine, got some groceries, he asked if we want to go out for dinner, and he paid for all that! I thought he really wants to work things out and finally 'gets it'. During dinner I told him the cop left me a message, they might want to come visit. He then told me he got a message from them too. I was suspicious of his 'truthfulness' to treat me so nice.
> 
> He continues to be very nice to me these few days! It is like when we first dating.. its THAT nice! He even initiate sex the last two days! Two days in a roll can you believe that?!
> 
> The cop and a crisis worker from a women shelter came knock on our door yesterday to check on us/me. I told them he has been really nice to me these few days.
> 
> I feel bad... he is not a monster. Manipulative? Guilt? Or are we working things out now? He is still driving with no license though.*


*And SEE?? Here he is, doing EXACTLY what she said he would, and you seem to be falling for it! STOP falling for it! NO MAN is worth the bullsh!t that you have been tolerating and allowing all this time, especially this one! Its time you wake up and get this man out of your life!*


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## turnera

temperance said:


> I feel bad... he is not a monster. Manipulative? Guilt? Or are we working things out now?


temperance, this isn't hard to figure out. 

A POLICE OFFICER now has his phone number and now knows that he sent his wife to the hospital and has her almost suicidal for the abuse. He knows that if anything else happens to you in the near future - the few days or weeks the cops will still check in - HE will be in trouble.

This isn't about you. He doesn't love you. He loves himself and he is protecting himself.


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## Openminded

The crisis counselor called it. Please get some help and get out of that.


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## LongWalk

You cannot enable his abusive behavior. Write down all his responsibilities on a piece of paper: driver's lic, income level, etc. Discuss a schedule for meeting the goals.

Leave the dog's testicles alone.  poor mutt.

Your husband may love you but he needs to grow up.


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## cdbaker

For starters, as usual, I agree with LongWalk.

As for what others have said, I don't necessarily think that your husband is in any way afraid of the police officer or afraid that he'll get in trouble. Thus far, I don't think he's done anything criminal, nothing he could get arrested for. (Aside from driving without a license I guess, but that's not a crime against you) With that said, the size of the fight/explosion of emotion that came after christmas, the fact that you were in the hospital for a day, that the police were called and got involved, etc. could all serve as a bit of a wake up call. That could be a good thing.

The real question however, is has this episode woken him up to how selfish his behavior has been all this time, or is he just afraid that you have been pushed far enough to end the marriage and he doesn't want that to happen? If it's the latter, then he'll be a wonderful husband until he reaches a point where you are safely "happy enough" that he can back off on his commitment level again. If it's the former, then you should see an all new man going forward with no noticeable decline in behavior.

My fear is that he is just reacting defensively. That he's just thinking, "Oh crap, that last fight was BAAAAD, I'd better be really extra good to her for a few weeks until she is "back to normal".


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## turnera

cd, I don't think he's afraid of being arrested so much as he didn't like the feeling of being scrutinized (abusers never do) by authorities.


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## clipclop2

Come on now when you told a crisis lady what he was doing did she not state that that was part of the cycle of an abuser? He wants to do two things the first is to make you believe that things might get better and to that by making you believe this you won't cause him any further trouble. You will stand up for him rather than accepting the help and advice you're being offered.

Did you think to mention to the cop that he is driving your car without a license and without your permission? Of course not. If you use your freaking car ask him to return the keys. If he refuses to tell the cops.

Because when this a****** kill somebody or otherwise get into serious trouble they're going to come knocking at your door and suing you.

Whether or not he's an abuser you are the only person responsible for that vehicle. He's driving it because you allow it. I don't want to hear you whine about that one more time if you want willing to do the right thing by yourself and society.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## temperance

Thanks for all your advices.... 

I know poor doggie... every time we talked about getting him fix I hesitate! LOL. 

In any case, he is treating me super nice now... so... we will see what his 'intention' really is for his behavior. Of course I am hoping for the best... but cautious for the next few months.


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## turnera

What will you do the first time he screams at you or hits you? 

What is your plan?


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## LongWalk

Temperance,

Your husband is not a normal person. He is very narrow in his vision of himself. He has very low expectations. He is like little old man living at the edge of the village at whom children might throw stones. You are his connection with reality and greater society. He is very asocial. He seems not to have friends, except those online.

He has elevated your dog to quasi chlld status because he is a quasi husband. 

Intellectually he knows that he has to perform at a higher level. CD, Turnera and Clip are all describing the same dysfunction but emphasizing different aspects. IMO he could be highly alarmed at the negative attention and inwardly not so alarmed. He maybe rationalizing away his fear. He was not afraid of your moods before before and does not intend to be in the future, unless he has to.

Here, though, you have seen an really positive sign. His behavior has changed.

I would ask him how he feels about what happened. Also, you should discuss responsibility. He is acting more responsible. How does that feel?

One thing that you should consider: he may improve quite a bit for some years but when he gets older he may backslide. He may have a breakdown if this hard work in your relationship is to much of strain.

Do not take for granted that things are fixed and you should just monitor.


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## cdbaker

Turnera, I'm sure he doesn't like being scrutinized by anyone, (who does?) whether he is doing anything wrong or not. What I was meaning is that even if the police knew every detail of his behavior, I don't think he has actually done anything illegal/criminal, so I don't think it would matter. 

In any case, the main question is still WHY has he changed his behavior recently. We know what instigated the change, but why has he chosen to respond in this matter?


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## wilderness

If you were yelling and throwing things, it could be argued that you are the abusive one and your husband is the victim. I really don't think it's fair under the circumstances for you or anyone else to accuse your husband of abuse.


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## temperance

wilderness said:


> If you were yelling and throwing things, it could be argued that you are the abusive one and your husband is the victim. I really don't think it's fair under the circumstances for you or anyone else to accuse your husband of abuse.


You know what, I was actually thinking about the same thing myself. When I was checking the definition of emotional abuse, the 'abusive behavior' shopping list seems to cover some things that I would consider gender miscommunication more so than abusive. If I understand correctly, emotional abusive is when the abuse spouse try to behavior a certain way to get the victim spouse to do what they want. Aren't we all doing that here then? He wants his lazy comfort live style, a quasi life in general as LongWalk was saying and want me to continue supporting it. I want to have a supportive husband, someone who can go through thick and thin with me, regardless if I am poor or rich, and someone who can build a 'family' with me which I have already given up and lower my expectation on this whole family thing. 

However, I can also understand the concern here from the professionals around me now. His 'angry' behavior can easily trigger physical violence towards me, and it is typical how physical violence begins. 

To my defense, for all these years I have never throw things, slamming things around and yelling at kid and dog. But, I do the 'silence treatment'. When I am angry I generally just retreat myself until I am calm enough to come out and say something in a nicer way, or not say it at all. And 'silence treatment' is a form of abuse! Anyways, I exploded! Totally lost it, at my wits end to hope for some changes from him. 

So... thinking about how we cope with our emotions and communicate (or lack thereof), maybe we were abusing each other all along!


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## temperance

turnera said:


> What will you do the first time he screams at you or hits you?
> 
> What is your plan?


That I have a plan. I have already packed all the important documents in a backpack. I travel a lot so there is no suspicious why I would have a stuffed backpack at home. Just throw a few clothes and panties, my laptop and there's my life in a bag ready to go. 

I probably won't do anything if he scream at me  But I am ready to take my backpack and walk out when he hits me.


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## temperance

cdbaker said:


> In any case, the main question is still WHY has he changed his behavior recently. We know what instigated the change, but why has he chosen to respond in this matter?





LongWalk said:


> Here, though, you have seen an really positive sign. His behavior has changed.
> 
> I would ask him how he feels about what happened. Also, you should discuss responsibility. He is acting more responsible. How does that feel?
> 
> One thing that you should consider: he may improve quite a bit for some years but when he gets older he may backslide. He may have a breakdown if this hard work in your relationship is to much of strain.
> 
> Do not take for granted that things are fixed and you should just monitor.


I have asked him why did he treat me so nice after what happened. He just have one answer, "because I love you". He said 'what do you mean I treat you nicer? I have always been like that'. I told him, 'I woke you up early this morning (11am not too early but you can imagine), you were obviously angry but you didn't act out'. I asked him 'what are you thinking, what are you feelings?'. He said 'why do you ask so many questions... I don't want you to think I have some other agenda, I love you and that's all it is'. he said 'it's been nice between us and I want to keep it that way'. I told him 'I am fear, that I am starting from ground zero again, I will be doing the same thing to build up our finances again, I will be traveling, working my ass off, going out in the morning and work till night. AND he will get comfortable again, nobody taking care of home and I need to do all that over the weekends and evenings. I am afraid after another 10 years, we find ourselves at the same place as we are now, except we will be a lot older.' He said, 'it doesn't matter if I work or or not, he will always keep a job'. 

I didn't use the word or talk about his 'responsibilities' per sa. His ex-wife annoyance is always start with 'it is your responsibility to ....'. It's been 13 years I am with him and his ex-wife still does the same thing to these days, and to these days I need to remind her about the court orders and her responsibility. So the word responsibility becomes very sensitive to him... or both of us. I don't want to trigger another negative reaction, my body/heart/soul just cannot bear any more stress at this time!

So... that's that. I have been staying home most of the time these days, working from home and taking it slow. When I am full force back to work to pay the bills, and we will see.


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## clipclop2

Address the car issue or I cannot believe a word you say about what you want or do not want


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## temperance

LongWalk and cdbaker, now what you suggested... simply telling him my expectations kind of like an employee works somewhat. It never work before, he seems to stop his defensiveness. He is doing housework now without complaints, he go on his pc game less, he is still not getting a drivers license but when I told him he response 'I know baby' instead of going all defensive on me.

I realized there is much bigger challenge to work on than my marriage problem... it is to work on my own demons. I was raised by a heavily physically and emotionally abusive parents, I was faced with a decision to again suicide or ran away, so the feeling is not new. His both parents are alcoholics, his mother turns into a b*tch when she is drank, his father is a narcissist, everybody else are dump asses including all his sons and I have never seen him sober all these years. He doesn't think we need to go to counseling anymore, he took my request for going to MC and IC as a complaint. He said, 'am I doing something to make you unhappy now? maybe you are depress'. So... he doesn't think he has any deeper emotional issues. 

Wow clipclop2, you are an angry person! Thanks if you are trying to help, but really, do you need to be so harsh?!


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## wilderness

Please don't give up on your husband and marriage. I believe there is plenty of reason to have hope for a brighter future in your life.


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## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> Please don't give up on your husband and marriage. I believe there is plenty of reason to have hope for a brighter future in your life.


Why is that, exactly?? Just because he has started pretending to change to keep from losing his meal ticket?? Really??


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## LongWalk

temperance said:


> LongWalk and cdbaker, now what you suggested... simply telling him my expectations kind of like an employee works somewhat. It never work before, he seems to stop his defensiveness. He is doing housework now without complaints, he go on his pc game less, he is still not getting a drivers license but when I told him he response 'I know baby' instead of going all defensive on me.
> 
> I realized there is much bigger challenge to work on than my marriage problem... it is to work on my own demons. I was raised by a heavily physically and emotionally abusive parents, I was faced with a decision to again suicide or ran away, so the feeling is not new. His both parents are alcoholics, his mother turns into a b*tch when she is drank, his father is a narcissist, everybody else are dump asses including all his sons and I have never seen him sober all these years. He doesn't think we need to go to counseling anymore, he took my request for going to MC and IC as a complaint. He said, 'am I doing something to make you unhappy now? maybe you are depress'. So... he doesn't think he has any deeper emotional issues.
> 
> Wow clipclop2, you are an angry person! Thanks if you are trying to help, but really, do you need to be so harsh?!


Here you have stated clearly why you were attracted to each other. 

Perception divides you. Watch this with him and tell him that the world is never as one person sees it.

Changing your husband is like a project. You may succeed. It will always be a hassle.

The fact that he is so uninterested in sex must be a big disappointment.

A man who drives without a license: that is a signal of real dysfunction because getting one is not that hard, to be honest.


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## wilderness

3Xnocharm said:


> Why is that, exactly?? Just because he has started pretending to change to keep from losing his meal ticket?? Really??


Why are you assuming that he is only pretending? That's a very dangerous assumption that is not necessarily based in reality.


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## Starstarfish

> Please don't give up on your husband and marriage. I believe there is plenty of reason to have hope for a brighter future in your life.


If this was a man complaining about a non-working abuse wife who isn't interested in sex, people would be telling him to leave yesterday.


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## PBear

Wilderness always tells people to stay together...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness

"Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
Matthew 19:6


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## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
> Matthew 19:6


:slap::slap::slap:


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## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> Why are you assuming that he is only pretending? That's a very dangerous assumption that is not necessarily based in reality.


Based on the YEARS of sh!tty behavior on his part. Give him a couple of weeks and he will be RIGHT BACK where he was, taking advantage, being lazy and self centered.


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## PBear

wilderness said:


> "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
> Matthew 19:6


God sucks. But thanks for bringing religion into a non religious thread. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm

wilderness said:


> "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
> Matthew 19:6



But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1 Timothy 5:8


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## turnera

wilderness said:


> Why are you assuming that he is only pretending? That's a very dangerous assumption that is not necessarily based in reality.


No, just on the complete marriage's history.


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## wilderness

turnera said:


> No, just on the complete marriage's history.


And there are always 2 sides to every story.


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## temperance

LongWalk said:


> Perception divides you. Watch this with him and tell him that the world is never as one person sees it.


This is amazing!! :smthumbup:



LongWalk said:


> The fact that he is so uninterested in sex must be a big disappointment.


This is another project on its own, maybe a phase 2! Sexless marriage is hard to swallow.


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