# Why did you cheat? What did you learn about yourself?



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Title says it all. 

So much of this forum expends energy on telling the cheater why they are a failure at all things relationship and are in fact in danger of eating their own children that no one wants to hear from the cheater. 

I don't subscribe to the "a cheater gonna cheat" model, at least not in all cases. Of course there are those who are so fidelity challenged that no relationship with them is safe, just like there are those who would rather eat a bullet than step outside the marrage. 

The rest of us live in a continuum where marital fidelity is something we strive for but sometimes fail at, for various reasons, both personal and cirumstantial (and probably usually a little of both). 

So why do we fail? Again, the simplistic "'cause you're a douche" while pithy fails to capture the complexity of the real world - i.e., the world in which we all live. What I want to know (and I won't judge your answers as self-serving or disingenuous) is why did you fail? What could you have done to avoid it? Did you try, or did you only gain this insight in retrospect? What did you learn about yourself that would serve you well to avoid a repeat with the same spouse or another?

In my never humble opinion, this forum needs a little more conversation and a little less projection on this topic. 

If you cannot stand to read a thread like this and not call cheaters out for being the complete waste of skin that you so clearly see them to be, then this thread is not for you. Please go somewhere else - just about any other thread on infidelity here will serve. 

======

I'll go first.

My failure was a combination of a sexually incompatible marriage, a feeling that I was entitled to "more", my own worries of an eternity of repressing my sexual needs, and a desire to maintain an otherwise good marriage (hence no divorce long before). I didn't see myself as a potential adulterer, so I failed to erect proper boundaries when a short affair fell into my lap.

I'm positive that with a more sexually compatible spouse, I would not have stepped outside my marriage - but that's just a little bit like saying if I could just sleep with anyone I wanted, I could be faithful! But honestly, even though many here will not like to hear it, that was the cause. No, not in a "I had no other choice" way, but in the "caused the circumstances which led to me being susceptible in my marriage" way. I am not absolved of the choice I made - what I would like to say is that I actually failed to make a choice. I allowed myself to suspend my morals to experience something I thought was completely lost to me forever. 

But I did learn, about myself and my marriage. I stopped resenting my spouse for our sexual differences - this happened only slowly, and with much effort. I learned that I could not necessarily be trusted in a situation where my desires come so starkly into contrast with my reality, so I do the 12-step equivalent of never having another drink. I consciously avoid any situation where I might be tempted again. I learned that my spouse has more grace than I would have thought possible in taking me back - which really does make it even harder to face a future failure (and is consequently an even better guardrail against it). 

So have I changed? That depends on your definition. People's character is typically not very flexible - we are who we are most of our adult life. What I have done is to LEARN from my failings. Failings I did now know that I had in me, but which I can be much more diligent about going forward. I changed how I thought about my spouse and my marriage, which is still a blessing even with it's one missing component. I guess you could say that I embarked on my own personal CBT regimen. 15 years later, it's still working, and I don't expect to fail again.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

We were apart for an extended period of time, and she had gotten close to a co-worker. I guess I was feeling lonely, and maybe jealous. 

A lady that was the opposite of my W expressed interest at the end of a training exercise. It was one and done, and I never saw her again. Maybe I just wanted to feel loved again after my W shifted her attention to someone else.

We were separated so perhaps it wasn't full blown cheating. But I still felt guilty afterwards.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> We were apart for an extended period of time, and she had gotten close to a co-worker. I guess I was feeling lonely, and maybe jealous.
> 
> A lady that was the opposite of my W expressed interest at the end of a training exercise. It was one and done, and I never saw her again. Maybe I just wanted to feel loved again after my W shifted her attention to someone else.
> 
> We were separated so perhaps it wasn't full blown cheating. But I still felt guilty afterwards.


Was there any personal revelation? Did you change anything about yourself, even your own self assesment, afterward?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

MAJDEATH said:


> We were apart for an extended period of time, and she had gotten close to a co-worker. I guess I was feeling lonely, and maybe jealous.
> 
> A lady that was the opposite of my W expressed interest at the end of a training exercise. It was one and done, and I never saw her again. Maybe I just wanted to feel loved again after my W shifted her attention to someone else.
> 
> We were separated so perhaps it wasn't full blown cheating. But I still felt guilty afterwards.


IIRC, you told her she could date while you were deployed (presumably because you planned to do the same)? That sounds like an open marriage and not cheating.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Hmm... As far as I know I still read and believe that far more marriages don't have infidelity than those that do... So evidently is not impossible or unattainable to have a faithful marriage (my parents did for 45 years)..... Yes of course no one ever really knows because it can never be caught or they may choose to never disclose.... But I don't think fidelity is as hard or impossible as it's made out to be....ive been married 20ys, and while my W did have an affair, I personally have never felt so need or fault to fall for one... 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Openminded said:


> IIRC, you told her she could date while you were deployed (presumably because you planned to do the same)? That sounds like an open marriage and not cheating.


True for her. But I never planned on doing anything myself - can I say it just happened? Isn't that what a cheater would say?


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Was there any personal revelation? Did you change anything about yourself, even your own self assessment, afterward?


I guess I learned that (in a weird way) I would survive if we didn't work out. At that point I had known no other woman intimately for 10 years and thought she was the only option. I no longer had to accept her face value because I confirmed there could be other options for me (remarry or play the field as a single guy). Although at every homecoming she was first in my mind for several months.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Interesting topic. I think the comment about setting boundaries for yourself is very important! I also think that introspection about your motives and expectations toward yourself and your spouse is critical.

I recently read and interesting article about women who get bored with sex in a long term relationship. It talks about how difficult some women have in not getting sexually bored in a long term relationship.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/02/women-get-bored-sex-long-term-relationships/582736/



> It’s not uncommon for women to let their straight partners play in a “monogamy gray zone,” to give guys access to tensional outlets that allow them to cheat without really cheating. “Happy ending” massages, oral sex at bachelor parties, lap dances, escorts at conferences … influenced by ubiquitous pop-cultural cues, many people believe that men need these opportunities for recreational “sorta sex” because “it’s how men are.” It’s how women are, too, it seems.


I have also read that women are "better" at cheating than men, at least less likely to get caught.

I was in a sex starved marriage. No sex for six months and absolutely no desire on my wife's part to ever have sex with me again. I had not cheated on her, I had not abused her, I had not ignored her, I did everything I could to be a good lover, I was a good father to our children and a good provider.

I thought about going out, finding a woman and have sex with some other women. I thought about divorce and asking for a trial separation. But instead I worked on changing myself, forgiving my wife, realizing I could not change her, and got the two of us in to work with a great marriage counselor and sex therapist. 

Before the counseling, I did a few things I wasn't proud of, going to a strip club to talk to pretty women and get an occasional lap dance. It helped the ego and the feelings of rejection. I quickly learned that the strippers were just there to get money. Anything I felt was just an illusion. It was expensive, and I felt like a chump, so I stopped and decided to spend the money on marriage counseling. It worked.

I agree that there is a continuum in regards to cheating. It is a slippery slope and without boundaries can easily destroy a marriage. I also feel that some of the responses on this forum are a little on the "tough love" side, but understand that the scars of being cheated on leave lasting emotional damage.

Again thanks for this thread,


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

That given the wrong circumstances just about anyone could cheat.

Mine was a stupid drunken revenge affair when two Star Trek nerds, both borderline alcoholics with a variety of problems, got together. To my shame.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Hmm... As far as I know I still read and believe that far more marriages don't have infidelity than those that do... So evidently is not impossible or unattainable to have a faithful marriage (my parents did for 45 years)..... Yes of course no one ever really knows because it can never be caught or they may choose to never disclose.... But I don't think fidelity is as hard or impossible as it's made out to be....ive been married 20ys, and while my W did have an affair, I personally have never felt so need or fault to fall for one...
> 
> Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


Yes, but the topic of this thread is "Why did YOU cheat?" 

You didn't cheat? Well, that's good, but not relevant to this thread, really?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> Interesting topic. I think the comment about setting boundaries for yourself is very important! I also think that introspection about your motives and expectations toward yourself and your spouse is critical.
> 
> I recently read and interesting article about women who get bored with sex in a long term relationship. It talks about how difficult some women have in not getting sexually bored in a long term relationship.
> 
> ...


I'm glad it worked out for you. What do you think would happen if your wife would had refused to go to marriage counseling?


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Yes, but the topic of this thread is "Why did YOU cheat?"
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't cheat? Well, that's good, but not relevant to this thread, really?


Simply because not cheating is pretty prevalent, and the OP original post would seem to indicate that not cheating requires work and effort for many. 
My point was more that If you are finding yourself in a marriage and having to put hard work and effort to not cheat, that in itself is a problem....you only live once, so get out of the marriage and enjoy dating.....

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> So much of this forum expends energy on telling the cheater why they are a failure at all things relationship and are in fact in danger of eating their own children that no one wants to hear from the cheater.
> 
> ...


Thanks for being brave enough to start this thread and being honest I guess. I looked at your post and did a little content analysis, key things were:

sexually incompatible
you felt entitled
you had repressed sexual needs
you had a desire to maintain marriage (aka cake eating)
you had lack of boundaries
you believed the circumstances ‘fell in my lap’ (now that is pushing it)

Doesn't really seem much different from the usual, wouldn't you say?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Simply because not cheating is pretty prevalent, and the OP original post would seem to indicate that not cheating requires work and effort for many.
> My point was more that If you are finding yourself in a marriage and having to put hard work and effort to not cheat, that in itself is a problem....you only live once, so get out of the marriage and enjoy dating.....
> 
> Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


You are being off topic. If you would like to debate your views, please create your own thread.


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## inplainsite (Jun 15, 2019)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Hmm... As far as I know I still read and believe that far more marriages don't have infidelity than those that do... So evidently is not impossible or unattainable to have a faithful marriage (my parents did for 45 years)..... Yes of course no one ever really knows because it can never be caught or they may choose to never disclose.... But I don't think fidelity is as hard or impossible as it's made out to be....ive been married 20ys, and while my W did have an affair, I personally have never felt so need or fault to fall for one...
> 
> Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


This is not the thread topic. It is purposely disrespecting what Cletus asked.


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## inplainsite (Jun 15, 2019)

aine said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > Title says it all.
> ...


This is exactly what Cletus said not to do.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@inplainsite are you a mod or the TAM police?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aine said:


> Thanks for being brave enough to start this thread and being honest I guess. I looked at your post and did a little content analysis, key things were:
> 
> sexually incompatible
> you felt entitled
> ...


Not so much. More like a feeling of obligation to and commitment to my wife, children, and promises (yes, I understand the irony). Deep in my soul, I know that I would be perfectly happy living on my own. 



> you had lack of boundaries
> you believed the circumstances ‘fell in my lap’ (now that is pushing it)
> 
> Doesn't really seem much different from the usual, wouldn't you say?


I guess I've never branded it as otherwise.

I can say with as near certainty as one can that with a sexually compatible spouse, it would not have happened. If I'd had a wife who was bad with money, or drank too much, or name-the-issue other than sex, that might have created intense marital problems, but that would not have made my reaction one of infidelity. It required the combination of my marriage and my particular personal weakness.

I also believe that reconciliation was a good choice. I was worth saving, our 34 year marriage is still in good shape, my children kept a committed and involved father in their lives, and my wife wasn't put into serious financial difficulties. 

I can be simultaneously ashamed for the mistake and proud of the outcome.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Hmm... As far as I know I still read and believe that far more marriages don't have infidelity than those that do... So evidently is not impossible or unattainable to have a faithful marriage (my parents did for 45 years).....


Meh, don't care. What may not be impossible is still not even remotely universal. Enough of us are here, from one side or the other of infidelity, to attest to that. 

The threads on long term success in marriage are over in another forum, though at over 3 decades, I might have something to add to that discussion too about grace and overcoming struggles rather than bailing out.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> I guess I learned that (in a weird way) I would survive if we didn't work out. At that point I had known no other woman intimately for 10 years and thought she was the only option. I no longer had to accept her face value because I confirmed there could be other options for me (remarry or play the field as a single guy). Although at every homecoming she was first in my mind for several months.


You're still together, right? So that knowledge that one might intuitively think would empower you to leave did not cause you to do just that.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> That given the wrong circumstances just about anyone could cheat.
> 
> Mine was a stupid drunken revenge affair when two Star Trek nerds, both borderline alcoholics with a variety of problems, got together. To my shame.


To be sure, a green Orion slave girl does have a certain appeal 

The first line is key. No doubt some of the "I wouldn't cheat with a knife at my throat" types are telling the truth. But I suspect their number is something less than you'd get from polling. 

Combine "not knowing I could cheat until I did" and relationship issues that entice one in that direction, and it is no surprise the infidelity rate is as high as it is. Without data to back it up, I would guess that most don't set out to be unfaithful. They just don't set out to be sufficiently faithful. That takes work too.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

When I go back and look at why I had a ONS it boils down to this:

-I felt I deserved it
-I felt I was worthy of feeling attractive
-I felt I was never going to be happy
-I felt that I knew better what I need than anyone or anything else
-It sort of did fall into my lap, but I know I played a role in placing it there
-Until it was actually happening I never thought it was possible as why would anyone want me. I did not take the possibility of it actually happening seriously.

Circumstances:
-Best shape and most attractive physically I have ever been
-My career was going really well and I was receiving multiple high level accolades and was going to be promoted
-The previous year saw me have multiple surgeries and spend many days in ICU so there was a mortality fear
-My wife was working more than she ever had and we spent most nights going to bed separately
-I was bitter feeling that my wife never really worked on or issues and she just hoped they would go away


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Simply because not cheating is pretty prevalent, and the OP original post would seem to indicate that not cheating requires work and effort for many.
> My point was more that If you are finding yourself in a marriage and having to put hard work and effort to not cheat, that in itself is a problem....you only live once, so get out of the marriage and enjoy dating.....


Except this just does not apply to me.

I don't enjoy dating. I'm not a fan of disconnected sex, one night stands, or playing the field. One can find oneself in a marriage having to put in hard work to not cheat from circumstances other than a distaste for the confinement of marriage.

People here are right quick to say that nothing makes you cheat. And I agree, on that limited definition of the word "make" where it means "compel". That's such a pedantic definition of the concept that it's not really much worth discussing. 

My marriage made me want to cheat. I had to 1) fail and 2) change to avoid it in the future. That's what this thread is about. Skipping 1) and going straight to 2) would have been preferred. But it didn't work out that way. I got a second chance, and I made good on it. So far. One day at a time.

Hi. I'm Cletus, and I'm a adulterer.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Tasorundo said:


> When I go back and look at why I had a ONS it boils down to this:
> 
> -Until it was actually happening I never thought it was possible as why would anyone want me. I did not take the possibility of it actually happening seriously.


Yes, I had forgotten that, but now that you mention it, I remember that feeling too. "This is my last chance, no one else including my wife is ever going to find me this attractive again".

Powerful drug, that one.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

It wasn't the thought that now is my only chance, it was more like 'This is silly and not actually going anywhere'. She wrote her room number down and gave it to me and I just dismissed it. I stayed at the bar for another hour or two then headed to my room with a coworker (his room was next to mine).

As we left the bar, he was called back to sign the receipt and the woman at the front desk stopped me, handed me a room key and number. I was alone, at the elevator, drunk, with a woman's room key in my hand. It just did not seem real.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Title says it all.
> 
> But honestly, even though many here will not like to hear it, that was the cause. No, not in a "I had no other choice" way, but in the "caused the circumstances which led to me being susceptible in my marriage" way. I am not absolved of the choice I made - what I would like to say is that I actually failed to make a choice. I allowed myself to suspend my morals to experience something I thought was completely lost to me forever.
> 
> ...



I like this topic. I'm glad you posted it. My wife cheated on me, I did not cheat, but to pretend that cheating is simply a character flaw (it is a character flaw but not 'simply' one any more than are other character flaws) is not helpful to figuring things out or attempting reconciliation.

It's interesting that you point out that you have learned not to trust yourself in certain situations. I was brought up with that idea, or as it used to be told to me 'avoid near occasions of sin'. To me it's sort of common sense and a little alarm goes off when I start to become attracted to someone of the opposite sex. I am fairly convinced that my wife never grew up with that warning. I do think in a sense her view is that 'it just happened', that in her mind it's not a lie to tell me that. I do think that once she said that and I walked it back for her (rather angrily) that she instantly saw the ludicrousness of that claim...but...I don't think there were screaming alarm bells in her head as things progressed in her attraction into an affair. I think there were warnings to be sure but they were not warnings of imminent disaster, just warnings that...well, I'm not sure of what, but they were not dire enough to make her stop early enough on. It was a judgement call early on then it became something more and she found reasons to rationalize it. If I had told her when we were first married that she would end up sleeping with someone at work she would have been disappointed that I believed that of her, so I don't think cheating is inborn in her. That's essentially what you have discovered about yourself and what your wife must have believed in order to reconcile things with you.

We all do this in varying degrees in serious or non-serious matters. We are all raised in different environments with different warnings and different winks and nods too. She needs to think differently about her spouse and our marriage but I also need to think differently about my spouse and our marriage. It was interesting when the furor arouse, about VP Mike Pence's views around being alone with a woman other than his wife, to see how many people think that is a ridiculous attitude. I haven't seen anything on this site about that but I imagine it's not viewed as ridiculous here. I am hoping that, like yours seems to be, our marriage can not survive and go back to the way things were but survive and thrive. Time will tell but it is good to see that some people who cheat in a marriage are not completely throwing away the entirety of the vows they made.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hptessla said:


> I like this topic. I'm glad you posted it. My wife cheated on me, I did not cheat, but to pretend that cheating is simply a character flaw (it is a character flaw but not 'simply' one any more than are other character flaws) is not helpful to figuring things out or attempting reconciliation.


There are a couple of direct statements from my wife that bear on this.

She has said that one of the things that attracted her to me as a mate was that I was as morally upright a person as she new. Not in the scolding way, but in the get out and help people at traffic accidents on the highway, pay for items the cashier forgot to charge you for, leave a note on the car you just scraped in the parking lot with no witnesses way.

My failing myself in that way hurts almost as much as my failing her. It was a crushing look in a mirror with an unfamiliar reflection.

The second happened right after the affair (a ONS). I had an STD scare. She questioned me why I was avoiding her in the bedroom, so I had to come clean. This was how she found out. Long after D day, she said that my willingness to admit to the affair rather than roll the dice, risk her health, and hope for the best went a long way towards convincing her that I still had loved her and had her best interests in mind. 

Even after doing just about the worst thing you can do to your spouse, you can still man-up and take responsibility. You never know - it might just save you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hptessla said:


> Time will tell but it is good to see that some people who cheat in a marriage are not completely throwing away the entirety of the vows they made.


I understand why some could never return under those circumstances, but I also understand how a loving spouse could manage to not reject you forever for your worst day. 

Subject to a ton of caveats about willingness to do the hard work to prove that it truly was your worst day and not a repeating offense.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Cletus said:


> There are a couple of direct statements from my wife that bear on this.
> 
> She has said that one of the things that attracted her to me as a mate was that I was as morally upright a person as she new. Not in the scolding way, but in the get out and help people at traffic accidents on the highway, pay for items the cashier forgot to charge you for, leave a note on the car you just scraped in the parking lot with no witnesses way.
> 
> ...


You clarified my thought as I read "so I had to come clean". I was thinking, no, many people don't.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

hptessla said:


> You clarified my thought as I read "so I had to come clean". I was thinking, no, many people don't.


I confessed straight away. i was a mess. so ****ed in the head that I needed medication.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I cheated on Thursday, flew home Friday, told my wife Saturday.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> That* given the wrong circumstances just about anyone could cheat.*
> 
> Mine was a stupid drunken revenge affair when two Star Trek nerds, both borderline alcoholics with a variety of problems, got together. To my shame.


Yup.
You a mouthful there.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> That given the wrong circumstances just about anyone could cheat.
> 
> Mine was a stupid drunken revenge affair when two Star Trek nerds, both borderline alcoholics with a variety of problems, got together. To my shame.


Ya' gotta' watch out for that Saurian brandy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Ya' gotta' watch out for that Saurian brandy.


More of a Romulan ale man, myself.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> More of a Romulan ale man, myself.


And being a red meat eater, my wife goes for the Klingon Bloodwine


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus, you are incredibly brave. Also I'm glad you are having a nice, calm thread and people aren't bringing pitchforks left and right. So nice!

Thank you.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Even after doing just about the worst thing you can do to your spouse, you can still man-up and take responsibility. You never know - it might just save you.


Not sure if intentional or not, but I see great importance here in saying taking responsibility saved "you", not the relationship. There's a lot more at stake here than the relationship. You also saved yourself. At least that's the way I'd like to read it.

I really didn't think I'd be complimenting someone's ethics who admitted to cheating. Thank you for altering my perspective a bit.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And being a red meat eater, my wife goes for the Klingon Bloodwine


Having seen what Klingon women do to their men, I stick to my species. Hard to enjoy a sexual encounter you don't live to tell about.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Cletus, you are incredibly brave. Also I'm glad you are having a nice, calm thread and people aren't bringing pitchforks left and right. So nice!
> 
> Thank you.


You're welcome, but my bravery is overstated. 

How much can a bunch of semi-strangers in an anonymous internet forum really hurt me? All it takes is a little thick skin.

I do thank the others who have not piled on a bunch of off-topic judgement.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Cletus said:


> You're welcome, but my bravery is overstated.
> 
> How much can a bunch of semi-strangers in an anonymous internet forum really hurt me? All it takes is a little thick skin.
> 
> I do thank the others who have not piled on a bunch of off-topic judgement.


Yeah I know they can't hurt you (obviously Cletus knows his way around a pitchfork), but it hurts the whole forum when people can't be compassionate at all towards anyone who has cheated. I mean yeah sometimes they allow one of the members to talk about it as long as they are contrite enough. But you have tried for a long time to say hey, can we at least see cheaters as human beings? To which usually everyone said F-NO!

That's what was "hurting". There is a conversation that wasn't being had because it keeps getting shut down. I was assuming they would come shut you down here, too. But so far, yay! Just peaceful conversation.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Thound said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you. What do you think would happen if your wife would had refused to go to marriage counseling?


During counseling with the sex therapist, the ST asked my wife what she thought would happen if we never had sex again. My wife avoided answering, but the ST kept asking. Eventually, my wife said we would probably divorce. The ST asked me if I had ever thought about divorce. I said to both of them that yes, I had. In fact I had looked up the laws and typical time lines between filing for divorce and when it would be finalized and had promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by a certain milestone birthday that was about 11 months away. I said that I would do whatever I could to make that loving sexual relationship be with my wife, but if she couldn't' I would divorce her and find someone else.

It was a true "deer in the headlights moment" for both the ST and my wife, as I had made a promise to myself and was trying to save my marriage. I knew I couldn't change her, only she could change herself. While stunned, the ST picked up the conversation and said that seemed very reasonable and gave my wife enough time to figure out what she wanted. It also made it clear that my wife needed to choose what she wanted and live with the consequences of her decision.

So, to answer your question, I would have absolutely divorced her had she not gone to marriage counseling or had not changed, but only after doing all I could to save the marriage and that included forgiving her and changing a lot of things about myself.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Cletus said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > I guess I learned that (in a weird way) I would survive if we didn't work out. At that point I had known no other woman intimately for 10 years and thought she was the only option. I no longer had to accept her face value because I confirmed there could be other options for me (remarry or play the field as a single guy). Although at every homecoming she was first in my mind for several months.
> ...


It was not an instant revealation, but understood over time. She has had some lapses along the way, but hung with me during a particularly horrific time in our lives. I doubt any replacement babes would have done so. I trust, but verify occasionally.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

MattMatt said:


> I confessed straight away. i was a mess. so ****ed in the head that I needed medication.


During dating days I cheated on a gf one time as the relationship was winding down and she had done something that ticked me off. It was never a trust based relationship and the girl I cheated with was an ex 'love of my life' (but we were incompatible and knew that)...still, afterward I felt so dirty. I realized that if I were ever to be in that situation again I should break up long before it got to a point where I felt the need to cheat. That was just dating, I can't imagine doing it while married with kids...I know my wife's not a monster so I have to assume that somewhere inside she is messed up.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

aine said:


> @inplainsite are you a mod or the TAM police?


*Moderator note:-*

No. But I am. And I already asked for no off topic posts in this thread.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Guess I'm just going to have to go get married then go out and cheat on her so I can enter this dialogue!

Nah! I don't think so!

But I heartily applaud those of you who have so bravely fessed-up and given rationalizations for your actions!

I have nothing but utter respect for all of those who confess and talk, much rather than those whose mantra is evading, running and hiding!*


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

I learned exactly how really special my wife was and still is

I learned what a POS I was 

35 years ago I learned I was not the stud I thought i was

I felt neglected poor poor me SMH

I learned I will never live long enough to restore my integrity

But Learn I did and will never fail again

55


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Thanks for starting this thread @Cletus...I actually waited to chime in because I figured you would have been boiled alive by now. The bottom line is I've seen threads like yours before in CWI, but the reality is I always felt people really didn't want to hear the reasons why. They simply wanted to start a thread for BS's to vent with their own theories. Comments by actual waywards were either blasted..or ignored...I'll share the abridged version of my story.

I was a serial wayward when I was married, and yes a few of my mistresses were also married. Interestingly enough the married mistresses were also serial waywards as well. As for why I cheated, I've spent a lifetime figuring out why. I get it folks on here say they would never...but that simply isn't me nor my personality type. If there is something I want that I need or I am not getting, I will communicate those needs, and if things don't change, I am going to go get it. Its just who I am. Not just personally, but professionally as well, it works well professionally....not so much personally. Yes I know this is the "typical" wayward attitude, but a lot of people are this way. I had a romanticized notion of what marriage should be, and what kind of woman a man should marry. I literally married someone the opposite of who I always dated because "she was the kind of girl you settle down with". In retrospect, I guess I was the male equivalent of the woman that goes with the "safe" guy when its time to settle down. 

So why did I cheat? Its because I didn't have in my relationship what I needed emotionally or physically. In retrospect my wife's emotional elevator only goes so high, that literally impacted everything. It doesn't allow for much passion, and honestly I didn't really feel like I mattered at all. I built my own company from the ground up, and each year I would go to my company Christmas party alone, my wife came to one in fifteen years, and complained the entire time. She simply did not care what I did and never said "good job", even though I provided a life that belongs on the cover of magazines. She had no passion about anything ever...which meant no fights..but...it also meant someone like me was very bored. Regarding our sex life. This I really can't blame her for. I had all these experiences BEFORE I met her, then decided I wanted a "good girl". Definitely not her fault, there was no bait and switch, but still she never evolved sexually as I thought. I was and still am her one and only as far as I know, its just not something that is in her. Sure she is willing, but when compared to the sexual Disney World I experienced elsewhere, the reality is I was never going to be happy with it. So I had affairs with women that were highly intellectual and highly sexual for the most part, but there was an exception or two.

Long story short, I decided to live a double life, my infidelity always bothered me far more than it ever bothered her. She was as passionless about my infidelity as she was everything else. For years posters on her would be like you are hurting wife, and honestly...even now...I really don't think so. We sit together at baseball games like nothing happened. She is only capable of feeling so much. If it were up to her we'd still be married. But I couldn't do it anymore. Over the years I had many APs that honestly were a much better fit for me. So over time I decided to end things and go it alone. 

I did receive advice from CWI folks over the years, but....none of it was helpful. It was all remorse based, all about tucking your tail between your legs and totally ignoring why they strayed in the first place. Which is a recipe for disaster. I think the first question that any wayward should have to answer is. Are you only reconciling out of guilt? In my case I felt awful and wanted to "fix" myself so I could be happy with the woman I married. I spent thousands on retreats, and on therapy hoping to use negative reinforcement to change who I am. In fact, I even used the posts on here as negative reinforcement. I fought so hard to save something that I didn't even want. I know CWI has a script that is followed, I guess my hope is if nothing else, if a wayward comes here, don't just start on the whole remorse thing. The bottom line is even though you don't think they have a soul. They do. And like me if they are seeking reconciliation out of guilt, it will only cause more pain. I fought tooth and nail for my marriage out of guilt, and all it did was cause more pain for both of us. Think on that before you advise the script after reading one or two posts from an OP. Even exposure could indeed make a wayward attempt a false reconciliation out of guilt. Every situation is different. Its not one size fits all. I have lurked here for years, and honestly I don't see any experts. Just people with hammers hitting nails, and patting each other on the back. You only acknowledge the handful of posters you showed the light. But what of the others that didn't fit that script? There are far more of them IMO, and they are dismissed. Maybe its you....and not them....food for thought.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> Thanks for starting this thread @Cletus...I actually waited to chime in because I figured you would have been boiled alive by now. The bottom line is I've seen threads like yours before in CWI, but the reality is I always felt people really didn't want to hear the reasons why. They simply wanted to start a thread for BS's to vent with their own theories. Comments by actual waywards were either blasted..or ignored...I'll share the abridged version of my story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ah ok. And I thought you may have cheated because she wouldn’t swallow (from the semen thread)...This makes more sense. Kind of 
Why did you not just leave her though and then ‘cheated’? There’s nothing wrong with getting what you want. Just get rid of what you don’t want first is usually the preferred practice...
You say she didn’t feel anything even after you cheated: how can you be sure? 
Have you been in an LTR with someone more passionate since? Trouble with passionate affairs is that they are so passionate because they are short and ‘forbidden’. Once you are told not to leave the toilet seat up or put the dirty socks away, it’s a different kind of passion that not many men are equipped to deal with...
Feeling like one is being taken for granted is never nice though.
Anyway, hope you find your match eventually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Thanks for starting this thread @Cletus...I actually waited to chime in because I figured you would have been boiled alive by now. The bottom line is I've seen threads like yours before in CWI, but the reality is I always felt people really didn't want to hear the reasons why. They simply wanted to start a thread for BS's to vent with their own theories. Comments by actual waywards were either blasted..or ignored...I'll share the abridged version of my story.
> 
> I was a serial wayward...


Wow, that was brutally honest. Thanks.

Having had a lot of opportunity to think on this, would you say that you just weren't marriage material, or that you were married to the wrong partner? Are you incapable of remaining faithful in an otherwise good relationship? Do you think you know the answer?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Wow, that was brutally honest. Thanks.
> 
> Having had a lot of opportunity to think on this, would you say that you just weren't marriage material, or that you were married to the wrong partner? Are you incapable of remaining faithful in an otherwise good relationship? Do you think you know the answer?


I am fairly certain I can be faitfhul to someone new. I've had two relationships since the end of my marriage that have lasted more than a year, and I never rally had a desire to be with anyone other than that person. It was different when I was with my wife, I was always longing for the type of woman that I used to be with, and I was also unfaithful prior to the marriage, which she also knew about. I do accept responsibility that I picked the perfect wife for someone else, not myself. Looking back I was really only ever moderately attracted to her. I had an idea in my head that simply didn't match the real me. It sure caused a lot of damage, but we got three beautiful kids out of it, and we are co-parenting very well.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@ReformedHubby

Thanks for the perspective into your situation.

I would agree with much of your post and think it is valuable insight.

I will disagree that everyone here has a hammer looking for a nail even though it can feel like it and I would say you cheated because you saw that as a viable option to your marriage woes and that just made you a cheater when others would have done what they could to improve the marriage and when no improvements came, either settled or divorced.

I definitely believe you should have divorced instead of reconciled however, and I will absolutely take your advice to heart in the future.

Thank you.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I was a serial cheater and I cheated because I wanted to. The end. No, really. If we boil it down to it's simplest form, I cheated because I wanted to. 

I accidentally got pregnant (Pill + Antibiotics= baby) and I "did the right thing". I married him and stayed for 6 years because I believed I owed it to my children (#2 was the result of a condom failure 5 years in). That's what I'd been taught. Women who have kids without marrying the father are pathetic creatures destined to have 4 Baby Daddies and their kids will all end up on the stripper pole, on welfare, or in jail. I was young, just turned 18, and I believed that. Hell, I'd watched it happen to people I knew. I didn't want to be "that girl" and I certainly wanted my kids to avoid jail, welfare, and the seedy titty bars scattered around the county.

We were not compatible to put it mildly. I was miserable. People say that you can't look to a spouse to make you happy. Sure. However, what I never hear anyone say is that living day in and day out with someone you aren't compatible with can and will actively make you unhappy. 

The man couldn't hold an intelligent conversation. 

He didn't cook and refused to eat anything resembling a vegetable. No exaggeration, he lived off fast food (without lettuce, onion, or tomato on the burgers), pizza, and Mountain Dew. 

He wouldn't/couldn't keep a job. His mom and I handled the household bills and she didn't even live there! When he did work he blew his money on God knows what. 

He lied like a rug. 

He stole from employers, me, and his parents on the regular. 

He had 2 kids I found out about after I was pregnant by snooping through his papers and stumbling upon the court documents. Despite DNA test results and official child support cases, he denied the kids were his and he wasn't seeing or paying support toward them. 

He'd occasionally get physical with me, but to be fair to him I was always a better brawler and not a gal to be trifled with. He would leave a bruise on me, I'd knock out a tooth or two on him.

Did I mention he'd screw anything that would stand still long enough?


I like men and I like sex. I saw no reason to be faithful, so I wasn't. I didn't hide it. My friends and family knew, he knew, and everyone could take it or leave it as far as I was concerned. Other men were a bright spot during a dark and hopeless time of my life. Those men and the time I spent with them kept me sane. No apologies.

When I was 24 I met DH. It was love at first sight. I just knew he was "it". A couple months after I blew up the sham marriage to be with him. 19 years later, here we are.

What did I learn? I learned that I compartmentalize well and that I am perfectly capable of fidelity to the right person.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I was a serial cheater and I cheated because I wanted to. The end. No, really. If we boil it down to it's simplest form, I cheated because I wanted to.
> 
> I accidentally got pregnant (Pill + Antibiotics= baby) and I "did the right thing". I married him and stayed for 6 years because I believed I owed it to my children (#2 was the result of a condom failure 5 years in). That's what I'd been taught. Women who have kids without marrying the father are pathetic creatures destined to have 4 Baby Daddies and their kids will all end up on the stripper pole, on welfare, or in jail. I was young, just turned 18, and I believed that. Hell, I'd watched it happen to people I knew. I didn't want to be "that girl" and I certainly wanted my kids to avoid jail, welfare, and the seedy titty bars scattered around the county.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story, @MJJEAN. I think it helps put things in perspective.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am fairly certain I can be faitfhul to someone new.



That sentence, on its own, sounds funny. Someone new doesn’t always stay new...But I know what you mean. Sounds more as though you didn’t quite have the attraction towards your wife, unless I’m misreading it.
Even if you are not one of them, there ARE some guys for whom it is basically impossible not to cheat. (It’s more that it’s difficult to decline offers, rather than proactively seek out adultery. Thinking of various celebrities that have to check in themselves in various sex addiction rehab centres. I never knew they had those...I always wondered how they treat the patients there...).
One year is quite short though. NRE goes away after about 2 years I think. Some people are basically addicted to that rush that NRE provide.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

@Cletus, you mentioned personal weakness. I think you have hit the nail on the head.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> Ah ok. And I thought you may have cheated because she wouldn’t swallow (from the semen thread)...This makes more sense. Kind of
> Why did you not just leave her though and then ‘cheated’? There’s nothing wrong with getting what you want. Just get rid of what you don’t want first is usually the preferred practice...
> You say she didn’t feel anything even after you cheated: how can you be sure?
> Have you been in an LTR with someone more passionate since? Trouble with passionate affairs is that they are so passionate because they are short and ‘forbidden’. Once you are told not to leave the toilet seat up or put the dirty socks away, it’s a different kind of passion that not many men are equipped to deal with...
> ...


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> That sentence, on its own, sounds funny. Someone new doesn’t always stay new...But I know what you mean. Sounds more as though you didn’t quite have the attraction towards your wife, unless I’m misreading it.
> Even if you are not one of them, there ARE some guys for whom it is basically impossible not to cheat. (*It’s more that it’s difficult to decline offers*, rather than proactively seek out adultery. Thinking of various celebrities that have to check in themselves in various sex addiction rehab centres. I never knew they had those...I always wondered how they treat the patients there...).
> One year is quite short though. NRE goes away after about 2 years I think. Some people are basically addicted to that rush that NRE provide.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The bolded part was very much me. I never really noticed anyone unless they noticed me first. My married mistresses in particular were very bold.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I had motivation (wife had denied sex for nearly a year).
I had opportunity: I'd met an attractive woman socially who made overtures.
I had desire: who wouldn't if they'd been denied sex? I was VERY tempted.
I had places and times that we could.
I also did not want to be that person, so I didn't. But it was very difficult to say no.
I did tell my wife that our marriage was over, shortly thereafter.
I did tell my wife that I was separating.
I did move out soon afterwards.
And THEN I dated other people, and had sex with some of them.

I'm glad I did it the way I did. However, if I had cheated, I would probably NOT have had any guilt or remorse w.r.t. my wife or marriage. She didn't deserve the consideration or my loyalty at that point. I might have told her after, anyway, or confessed if she suspected and asked, as I was ready to leave. I would have been disappointed in myself if I'd cheated - but I think I'd have gotten over it pretty fast. But I don't know what might have been, since I didn't.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aine said:


> @Cletus, you mentioned personal weakness. I think you have hit the nail on the head.


Your homework is being returned for incompleteness. I mentioned a lot more than that.

I don't adopt a reductionist worldview in anything. People who want simple answers to complex problems should not be offended when those answers fail to explain much.

Don't know if you're familiar with my situation, don't know if it matters. Looking back at 35 years in a sexually repressed relationship where the vast majority of the sacrifice has been born on my shoulders, with a one night affair on the other side of the ledger, I don't know if "personal weakness" really covers the whole topic here. It's probably the biggest factor. It may have been the keg of dynamite, but there was a match, and there was a fuse that did not have to be lit under different circumstances. 

Or maybe I'm just full of rationalization for the cognitive dissonance caused by the inhuman monster at the heart of my soul who doesn't understand word one about being faithful to another. Who can say?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Your homework is being returned for incompleteness. I mentioned a lot more than that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not all choices need to be rationalised. Sometimes we do stuff without thinking and there is no reason. Nor does there need to be one. 
Maybe it’s better that way than (implicitly) putting it on your wife (if she had more and kinkier sex this may not have happened...). Even if it’s true in your case that it wouldn’t have happened, I think there are plenty of cases when everything is fine in the marriage but the husband still has affairs. The main thing is what you decided for yourself going forward.
I hope you didn’t tell her about it...(I can’t remember now).


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Not all choices need to be rationalised. Sometimes we do stuff without thinking and there is no reason. Nor does there need to be one.
> Maybe it’s better that way than (implicitly) putting it on your wife (if she had more and kinkier sex this may not have happened...). Even if it’s true in your case that it wouldn’t have happened, I think there are plenty of cases when everything is fine in the marriage but the husband still has affairs. The main thing is what you decided for yourself going forward.
> I hope you didn’t tell her about it...(I can’t remember now).
> 
> ...


There’s always a reason. Whether you think about it or not. Understanding the reason matters if you want to make the future different to the past.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Your homework is being returned for incompleteness. I mentioned a lot more than that.
> 
> I don't adopt a reductionist worldview in anything. People who want simple answers to complex problems should not be offended when those answers fail to explain much.
> 
> ...


I thought there was supposed to be no judgement posts in this thread...


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Of course there is the more simplistic reason for cheating. I was lonely and my W was both considering other options and 6000 miles away. I learned that I like 6ft tall blondes with big boobs, and that she tasted great.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This thread is kind of reminding me of something that sex/relationship columnist and talk show host Dan Savage says. 

He states, "....people who have been married 40, 50 years and have only slipped up a time or two are actually GOOD at monogamy." 

There is probably some kind of sick and twisted truth to that somehow.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> This thread is kind of reminding me of something that sex/relationship columnist and talk show host Dan Savage says.
> 
> He states, "....people who have been married 40, 50 years and have only slipped up a time or two are actually GOOD at monogamy."
> 
> There is probably some kind of sick and twisted truth to that somehow.


Deleted something judgmental that didn’t belong.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> This thread is kind of reminding me of something that sex/relationship columnist and talk show host Dan Savage says.
> 
> He states, "....people who have been married 40, 50 years and have only slipped up a time or two are actually GOOD at monogamy."
> 
> There is probably some kind of sick and twisted truth to that somehow.


I think there are degrees of slipping up.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Your homework is being returned for incompleteness. I mentioned a lot more than that.
> 
> I don't adopt a reductionist worldview in anything. People who want simple answers to complex problems should not be offended when those answers fail to explain much.
> 
> ...



I know you mentioned many factors, i don't use reductionism either ordinarily. There are external influences and internal/personal factors but to my mind personal weakness is at the centre of all infidelity. We know what the right thing is to do but don't do it. There are many long suffering spouses who do not cheat, in spite of opportunities, why?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

aine said:


> I know you mentioned many factors, i don't use reductionism either ordinarily. There are external influences and internal/personal factors but to my mind personal weakness is at the centre of all infidelity. We know what the right thing is to do but don't do it. There are many long suffering spouses who do not cheat, in spite of opportunities, why?


Perhaps they didn't reach their tipping point or the moment where they broke?

Maybe they were better stronger, people than I was? That's possible, too, I guess.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps they didn't reach their tipping point or the moment where they broke?
> 
> Maybe they were better stronger, people than I was? That's possible, too, I guess.


Both of your points can coexist in the same situation. A stronger person might take longer to reach their tipping point. As a result, they might not reach it where someone else does. 

That’s why, in my mind, you need to look at the whole situation before attempting to judge the degree of culpability someone has for their affair.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> That’s why, in my mind, you need to look at the whole situation before attempting to judge the degree of culpability someone has for their affair.


Well, unless someone was drugged or mentally ill, someone is fully and totally culpable for their choices to cheat.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aine said:


> I know you mentioned many factors, i don't use reductionism either ordinarily. There are external influences and internal/personal factors but to my mind personal weakness is at the centre of all infidelity. We know what the right thing is to do but don't do it. There are many long suffering spouses who do not cheat, in spite of opportunities, why?


Why do some fall into alcoholism?
Or addiction?
Or obesity?
Or gambling?
Or excessive porn use?
Or...

Humans are imperfect, and that imperfection takes as many forms as there are people to express it. There are not too many virtues in life where one can be considered a complete failure for a single mistake. 

Which is the thinking behind the Savage quote.

To those who know me, the notion that I'm a weak willed person in general is laughable. The gross generalization, as usual, fails.



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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Well, unless someone was drugged or mentally ill, someone is fully and totally culpable for their choices to cheat.


Culpable? Yep. The only factor? I think not. Percentage of blame to be assigned to personal weakness? I would consider it case by case.

Venus Williams got knocked out of Wimbledon by a 15 year old this week. She is a loser in that tournament. I haven’t been knocked out of Wimbledon ever. Not once. Never been defeated in a grand slam tournament. That doesn’t make me the better tennis player.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Culpable? Yep. The only factor? I think not. Percentage of blame to be assigned to personal weakness? I would consider it case by case.
> 
> Venus Williams got knocked out of Wimbledon by a 15 year old this week. She is a loser in that tournament. I haven’t been knocked out of Wimbledon ever. Not once. Never been defeated in a grand slam tournament. That doesn’t make me the better tennis player.


Hahaha! Don't get too philosophical or go down the rabbit hole too far. I can play the game well and spin everything right back your way.

You sometimes start becoming a bit too much of a cheater apologist. Not all situations are the same but the choice to cheat is the cheater's alone

Your wife was in the same tournament as all of us in committed and exclusive relationships and she threw the game on purpose and with intent. 

Regardless of circumstances, she needs to own it fully.

Once a cheater owns their **** exclusively as theirs, all the other crap surrounding the situation and from all parties involved can be examined but not until they get over whatever bull**** hamster wheel is spinning in their head.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Hahaha! Don't get too philosophical or go down the rabbit hole too far. I can play the game well and spin everything right back your way.
> 
> You sometimes start becoming a bit too much of a cheater apologist. Not all situations are the same but the choice to cheat is the cheater's alone
> 
> ...


Conan, it’s not a philosophical rabbit hole or a game to me. It’s how I understand the world.

Let me contrast you, my wife, and myself to illustrate. This is a comparison, not a judgement, and it starts with a degree of assumption about your religious beliefs.

My wife and I both attempted only one sexual partner for our entire life in a monogamous marriage. Your posts suggest you didn’t. I believe we are all church goers. All read the same bible, which explicitly denounces fornication. Her decision was to try to live up to that, and at one point fail. Did you try and fail, or did you not try? To what extent were you both in the same tournament? I don’t know enough about your story to even begin to answer that question. But I committed to that teaching and, so far, lived up to it. Do I judge both of you for failing to live up to that standard, given that I made it?

That doesn’t invalidate your hamster wheel point. When someone makes a mistake, particularly such a serious one, they had better work on improving themselves to prevent a repeat. But perhaps, in one sense, our different approaches are part of the hamster wheel. 

The thing I am sure of is that my wife is a very decent person who tries to do right. I choose to see her failing in that context, and stand by her, and we have enough subsequent history for me to maybe relax a little about my judgement of her overall character.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Conan, it’s not a philosophical rabbit hole or a game to me. It’s how I understand the world.
> 
> Let me contrast you, my wife, and myself to illustrate. This is a comparison, not a judgement, and it starts with a degree of assumption about your religious beliefs.
> 
> ...


I was a stone cold (fill in the blank) bad ass that didn't believe in much of anything. I became a Christian only after being with Mrs. Conan for about 6 years, 2 married and no cheating on either side.

Your wife didn't make a mistake, she made a choice over and over again. No drunken one time slip.

I don't have any problem with repentance. You have to own your **** first beforehand though. That simple.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Why do some fall into alcoholism?
> Or addiction?
> Or obesity?
> Or gambling?
> ...


I was drifting to alcoholism. And I found a fellow wannabe alcoholic and it was a toboggan ride to hell.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I was bored.
I was Lonely.
I was angry.
I was stressed.
I was tired.
I thought I could find a way out.
I thought there was a better option.
I was wrong.

That's all.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'm not sure if using the word "mistake" is appropriate when discussing cheating. A mistake is locking your keys in the car with the motor running or withdrawing from your retirement account for a Dodge Charger when you're 22. 

When someone cheats (even if they get drunk) they aren't making a "mistake," they are scoring and are benefiting personally from it. 

They only experience repercussions when they get caught and the BS takes actions (unless they get herpes). 

Sometimes they may feel regret or remorse or may not think that getting the extra tail was worth the divorce and ire of the BS's family. 

But it was never a 'mistake' to them when they were in the middle if the downstroke.

The WS always justifies it in their own mind long before the first article of clothing hits the floor of the No-Tell Motel. 

Most never even feel true remorse or think what they did was all that bad. They just don't like the repercussions that come from getting caught.


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## inplainsite (Jun 15, 2019)

aine said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > Your homework is being returned for incompleteness. I mentioned a lot more than that.
> ...


Because you are better than those other people?


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not sure if using the word "mistake" is appropriate when discussing cheating. A mistake is locking your keys in the car with the motor running or withdrawing from your retirement account for a Dodge Charger when you're 22.
> 
> When someone cheats (even if they get drunk) they aren't making a "mistake," they are scoring and are benefiting personally from it.
> 
> ...


So you put it into an entirely different category than other moral/ethical dilemmas and choices people make, many of which they question during the act but momentum moreso than conscious thought compels them to continue? 

I think the number of people who are actually relieved to be "found out" may be considerably higher than you believe. That's not to discount the number of people who are able to fully rationalize that what they're doing is worth the price of admission and believe that the price of confession isn't a factor because nobody's going to be the wiser.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Why do some fall into alcoholism?
> Or addiction?
> Or obesity?
> Or gambling?
> ...


I live with a functional (for now) alcoholic. I know the view of addictions as being a sickness. I'm sorry I do not subscribe to that view. It is a personal weakness. My H has had many counsellors, attempts at AA, knows the consequences, etc but 'chooses' to drink, temporarily gets the help then drops out, he himself says he is weak in this regard. I surely hope you are not trying to say that infidelity is something that certain people cannot help, to me that is BS and an insult to those of us who have every reason to cheat but 'choose' not to because we know it is wrong. 
Using situational ethics/morality it seems. nevertheless @Cletus I am glad you started this thread. It is good to see how the other half thinks


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I was a stone cold (fill in the blank) bad ass that didn't believe in much of anything. I became a Christian only after being with Mrs. Conan for about 6 years, 2 married and no cheating on either side.
> 
> Your wife didn't make a mistake, she made a choice over and over again. No drunken one time slip.
> 
> I don't have any problem with repentance. You have to own your **** first beforehand though. That simple.


Are you nitpicking on words a little?

“At one point” refers to the eight month period of the affair. I’m not sure I would have cared less if it had been a one night stand, but it wasn’t. When your partner crosses that line, it hurts.

Her affair was intentional, we agree. “Mistake” can be a deliberate act. “Misguided or wrong” according to the Oxford. If you are happier to say “wrong” I’m ok with that.

By definition, repentance is owning your crap. But I don’t think any amount of repentance is enough to give the wayward the right to expect reconciliation. It requires the betrayed to forgive. It always amazes me when people here talk about the wayward doing the heavy lifting, because how much heavy lifting wipes out something like that?

I think it best we agree to disagree on whether other factors should be considered. My approach was what helped me reconcile, and nearly three decades later, I am happy with how it turned out. I don’t see how I could have evaluated the risk of trying to reconcile without thinking about why she did what she did, and how to avoid a repeat. I’m ok that you would handle it differently.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

aine said:


> I live with a functional (for now) alcoholic. I know the view of addictions as being a sickness. I'm sorry I do not subscribe to that view. It is a personal weakness. My H has had many counsellors, attempts at AA, knows the consequences, etc but 'chooses' to drink, temporarily gets the help then drops out, he himself says he is weak in this regard. I surely hope you are not trying to say that infidelity is something that certain people cannot help, to me that is BS and an insult to those of us who have every reason to cheat but 'choose' not to because we know it is wrong.
> 
> Using situational ethics/morality it seems. nevertheless @Cletus I am glad you started this thread. It is good to see how the other half thinks


Always glad to disappoint. Moral superiority is a warm blanket.

Different people fail in different ways according to their nature under different circumstances. That's the only point I'm making.


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## inplainsite (Jun 15, 2019)

Cletus said:


> aine said:
> 
> 
> > I live with a functional (for now) alcoholic. I know the view of addictions as being a sickness. I'm sorry I do not subscribe to that view. It is a personal weakness. My H has had many counsellors, attempts at AA, knows the consequences, etc but 'chooses' to drink, temporarily gets the help then drops out, he himself says he is weak in this regard. I surely hope you are not trying to say that infidelity is something that certain people cannot help, to me that is BS and an insult to those of us who have every reason to cheat but 'choose' not to because we know it is wrong.
> ...


Moral superiority is an annoying shield for some.

I merely find it annoying.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Always glad to disappoint. Moral superiority is a warm blanket.
> 
> *Different people fail in different ways according to their nature under different circumstances. * That's the only point I'm making.


Agreed....I have had people rail against me for what I did...that honestly were not very nice people in any category. Its also bizarre to me that the person that I actually cheated on has been far more forgiving.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I wasn't the cheater in my relationship but feel I can add something to this conversation. My ex had an exit affair. I have had to reconcile this idea that the affair was the cause of our divorce; that he "dumped" me for another woman. The reality is that he was unhappy for a long time. Too many years of miscommunication and feeling unheard left their mark on our emotional connection. Fair or not, the affair gave him the motivation to ask for the divorce. Maybe I would feel differently about him and the whole affair/divorce thing if he had been a cake eater but I cannot view him as anything less than fallible just like every other person.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

inplainsite said:


> Because you are better than those other people?


In certain aspects sure. In other aspects they are far worse. Placing ones self or others on a pedestal is a character flaw many people don't have. Does that make them better people than those who do?


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Cletus said:


> Why do some fall into alcoholism?
> Or addiction?
> Or obesity?
> Or gambling?
> ...


 Murder, rape, pedophilia, poaching, drug dealing, horse thievery, goat ****ery, and the list goes on and on. Failure = labeled in the context you are putting it, and you get permanently labeled with a lot of offenses. In the end that's all it is, a label.

As far as whether you're weak-willed or not, it's painfully obvious you are when it comes to fidelity and obeying your vows. You might be rock solid and a tough guy everywhere else but you missed the boat on that one. Parse it any way you want but ... Nah. You've got plenty of company though if that's any comfort.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> As far as whether you're weak-willed or not, it's painfully obvious you are when it comes to fidelity and obeying your vows. You might be rock solid and a tough guy everywhere else but you missed the boat on that one. Parse it any way you want but ... Nah. You've got plenty of company though if that's any comfort.


I agree with you. 

I'm still married to that woman, and we both had ample opportunity to end it. So you can "parse" it to say that I'm bad at fidelity (DOES one failure make someone bad at something? Even if they fix it?), at least once, but not all that bad at marriage, in totality. My spouse would agree, were you to ask her, because she understands the difficulties we've been through. 

It's not easy remaining married to an adulterer, and it's not easy being married to a prude. Succeeding at it for as long as we have should, in my opinion, be considered a success.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> I'm still married to that woman, and we both had ample opportunity to end it. So you can "parse" it to say that I'm bad at fidelity (DOES one failure make someone bad at something? Even if they fix it?), at least once, but not all that bad at marriage, in totality. My spouse would agree, were you to ask her, because she understands the difficulties we've been through.
> 
> It's not easy remaining married to an adulterer, and it's not easy being married to a prude. Succeeding at it for as long as we have should, in my opinion, be considered a success.


 I don't know what your marital relationship is like so can't comment on that, but I guess it all boils down to what your individual perception of success is. If it works for both of you, who am I to judge, but it doesn't alter the fact that you failed at fidelity, you didn't succeed at that.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners.

Yet I certainly don't think all marital infidelity is immoral at all.

As to failing at fidelity. I don't think going off reservation in the face of a very limited sex life or none at all is a failure at all. In fact I am certain that such an undertaking is perfectly reasonable given such conditions.

In my opinion anyone who chooses to turn the sex tap off interminably with their sexual partner./s Automatically forfeits any moral obligation to having any sexual fidelity from their sexual partner/s.

If I found myself in a marriage like that experienced by Cletus. I would rightly have no hesitation in seeking sex with others, openly or more discreetly as a frequent and ongoing thing.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

aine said:


> Thanks for being brave enough to start this thread and being honest I guess. I looked at your post and did a little content analysis, key things were:
> 
> you felt entitled
> you had repressed sexual needs
> ...


Shouldn't a human be expected to have most of their sexual (or communication) needs met in a life long relationship? (ie there is reasonable premise for feeling of entitlement).
Just to clear confusion: I'm asking why it is expected the partner(s) who aren't getting their real needs met should just be expected to "suck it up" and keep to full contract (in the ethics philosophy sense of contractualisation) when clearly the other party doesn't honor/work their side of the relationship.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

aine said:


> I know you mentioned many factors, i don't use reductionism either ordinarily. There are external influences and internal/personal factors but to my mind personal weakness is at the centre of all infidelity. We know what the right thing is to do but don't do it. There are many long suffering spouses who do not cheat, in spite of opportunities, why?


Several reasons, very few of them actually good, most of them relating to personal ego and social group expectation (rather than, say, a desire for to make their and their own partners life better).

I personally think a desire for love and appreciation from another human during the whole rest of your life and hope for self-worth is hardly "personal weakness".


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Several reasons, very few of them actually good, most of them relating to personal ego and social group expectation (rather than, say, a desire for to make their and their own partners life better).
> 
> I personally think a desire for love and appreciation from another human during the whole rest of your life and hope for self-worth is hardly "personal weakness".


A desire for love and appreciation from another human is in itself ordinarily a good thing, but how you go about getting it and who you hurt along the way makes all the difference, no? If it is all about your needs, to hell with whomever else then yes it is a personal weakness called self-centredness and selfishness.


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## Oceania (Jul 12, 2018)

aine said:


> A desire for love and appreciation from another human is in itself ordinarily a good thing, but how you go about getting it and who you hurt along the way makes all the difference, no? If it is all about your needs, to hell with whomever else then yes it is a personal weakness called self-centredness and selfishness.


Ja


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

aine said:


> A desire for love and appreciation from another human is in itself ordinarily a good thing, but how you go about getting it and who you hurt along the way makes all the difference, no? If it is all about your needs, to hell with whomever else then yes it is a personal weakness called self-centredness and selfishness.


If you are not getting this from the person you made vows together with, and after discussion and counseling they STILL won't step up, then divorce them BEFORE looking for it somewhere else! If the problems are not bad enough to divorce over, they are certainly not bad enough to throw away your integrity and cheat over.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Shouldn't a human be expected to have most of their sexual (or communication) needs met in a life long relationship? (ie there is reasonable premise for feeling of entitlement).
> Just to clear confusion: I'm asking why it is expected the partner(s) who aren't getting their real needs met should just be expected to "suck it up" and keep to full contract (in the ethics philosophy sense of contractualisation) when clearly the other party doesn't honor/work their side of the relationship.


This is a good point. My result on that question came to this:
My wife cheated, after about 4.5 years of denying sex. Did I not have the right after about a year into the no sex to declare myself out of contract and go do as I pleased?

Certainly that argument can be made as far as the spirit and intent of marriage goes. If I had gotten married younger and not seen enough of the world I might well have used that excuse. At the end of the day I looked at the marriage vows and determined that as stated I had not entered a bilateral contract. I willingly took a unilateral vow. I cannot excuse myself from that because of change of circumstance (which, in a way is covered under 'bad times' and 'sickness' anyway). This is not at all a popular view here or in society at large, which I see as unfortunate. Imagine a world where people attempted to fully and completely live their vows from the start (none of us do because we're not perfect).

There are a series of videos informative and pertinent to this thread on Youtube at Affair Recovery channel.
Helpful IF you can get a person to watch them ;p


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In general I agree, but when there are kids and property, divorce can be very difficult. There are women whos husbands have sex with then until they get pregnant, then pretty much never again. If they are stay at home moms, divorcing is not nearly as simple an answer as it sounds. I feel that if someone has acted is a deceptive sort of way about sex (eg having sex until their partner is basically trapped) then deception by that partner is not unreasonable. 




personofinterest said:


> If you are not getting this from the person you made vows together with, and after discussion and counseling they STILL won't step up, then divorce them BEFORE looking for it somewhere else! If the problems are not bad enough to divorce over, they are certainly not bad enough to throw away your integrity and cheat over.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

uhtred said:


> In general I agree, but when there are kids and property, divorce can be very difficult. There are women whos husbands have sex with then until they get pregnant, then pretty much never again. If they are stay at home moms, divorcing is not nearly as simple an answer as it sounds. I feel that if someone has acted is a deceptive sort of way about sex (eg having sex until their partner is basically trapped) then deception by that partner is not unreasonable.


I honestly agree about the reasonable part. I just don't agree that it is right.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

Wazza said:


> Conan, it’s not a philosophical rabbit hole or a game to me. It’s how I understand the world.
> 
> Let me contrast you, my wife, and myself to illustrate. This is a comparison, not a judgement, and it starts with a degree of assumption about your religious beliefs.
> 
> ...



Good points, both of you. I'm in the middle of this right now in terms of 'reconciliation' with a wife who cheated; I discovered it at about 4 months along per her timeline. There are elements of owning it that become dicey in real life conversations. The other huge thing to me, given you are bringing religion in, is the sacramental nature of marriage. Two become one, and the marriage brings God directly into the equation (in my church it is the only sacrament where the cleric is only a witness).

I often think back to my days when single and the knowledgeable fornication (I love that word) I committed. I was days shy of 26 when I did it the first time and I remember the feelings involved. Yes, love was there...as far as I knew 'love' at that age. However there was also hopelessness because we were never going to work as far as a marriage. Then there was narcissism and pride and anger. I was not a bad person but I did evil knowingly. I did it because 'I wanted'. What I truly wanted was to have a good marriage with my gf but our values were different. I wanted her to change and I wanted God to bring that about or whoever or whatever to force that change...I was set against the gift of free will that is inherent in our relationship with God...but I didn't care because I wanted what I wanted and short of getting THAT I settled for what I COULD get and it came at a cost. I believe it came at a cost to her too when I look with the benefit of hindsight, something was lost to her that she had seen in me.

It's similar with my wife only with much more complicated history involved. We have children, we freely made a lifelong commitment and we had small problems all along that we mutually let fester. I can blame her and she can blame me...and we both do.
However, the infidelity is singular because it is a definitive and deliberate breaking of the vow of marriage. And, myself having cheated once on someone while dating (cheating while dating when you 'believe' in abstinence before marriage is an entire Post topic of it's own), cheating is the culmination of a cowardly approach. The infidelity must be dealt with separately and prior to mutually fixing the marriage.
An affair is hard on the betrayed, even if the marriage was broken and sex was non-existent. It is equally hard, in a different way, on the betrayer. To carry out an affair requires a realignment of the cheater's entire value system. My wife lied, constantly...sometimes to me and sometimes to our kids (I discovered she was in a hotel having sex on our son's birthday while our daughter was throwing up one morning)...but mostly she lied to herself. She had to build an alternate universe where I had no positive attributes and she was forced into an affair by my bad nature.
I'm nowhere near perfect and actually, personally, her run through of my faults and failings was helpful in looking realistically at myself and beginning to make changes (not to accommodate her but because she was correct and I want to be a better man). The problem for her is that it was only an outward look at the issues in our marriage and that went on a long time prior to the affair, because it was a necessary step to get to the 'freedom' to do as she pleased. That 'freedom' also included more drinking and taking up smoking because apparently the stress of finding 'happiness' can lead to such. So to me an affair is just the culmination of a self centered and ultimately God rejecting outlook. I've done the same at times in different areas. I never looked at it that way because in my mind it was just small things and it was only because it was too hard doing the right thing or maybe I deserved something a little more than most people. The only difference is the degree and length of time which I allowed my self centered outlook to continue. That difference though led in her case to a deeper, more harmful outcome. In more raw terms it is similar to the difference between hurting someone and killing someone. The affair dealt a mortal wound to the marriage and the only cure for that wound can come from outside myself and her IF we are both willing to allow it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

hptessla said:


> Good points, both of you. I'm in the middle of this right now in terms of 'reconciliation' with a wife who cheated; I discovered it at about 4 months along per her timeline. There are elements of owning it that become dicey in real life conversations. The other huge thing to me, given you are bringing religion in, is the sacramental nature of marriage. Two become one, and the marriage brings God directly into the equation (in my church it is the only sacrament where the cleric is only a witness).
> 
> I often think back to my days when single and the knowledgeable fornication (I love that word) I committed. I was days shy of 26 when I did it the first time and I remember the feelings involved. Yes, love was there...as far as I knew 'love' at that age. However there was also hopelessness because we were never going to work as far as a marriage. Then there was narcissism and pride and anger. I was not a bad person but I did evil knowingly. I did it because 'I wanted'. What I truly wanted was to have a good marriage with my gf but our values were different. I wanted her to change and I wanted God to bring that about or whoever or whatever to force that change...I was set against the gift of free will that is inherent in our relationship with God...but I didn't care because I wanted what I wanted and short of getting THAT I settled for what I COULD get and it came at a cost. I believe it came at a cost to her too when I look with the benefit of hindsight, something was lost to her that she had seen in me.
> 
> ...


A lot of interesting stuff here.

One of the interesting things (to the extent I can be objective) is the evolution of my wife’s perspective on things. Like yours, she hated me at the time of the affair. She could and did blame me for all sorts of things. There was no internet back then and I had no idea that it was normal. I took it pretty badly. But in the end, as you describe, I worked on myself and was the better for it in the longer term.

Meantime my wife lives with the ghost of what she did, and struggles with it. It is not something she is proud of, and I actually think I am more at peace with it than she is.

The mention of religion, by the way, was just as easy way to get a common baseline for our different experiences. I think the basic concepts apply regardless of religious belief. But I do think one big difference is that Conan sowed his wild oats before marriage, and to some extent my wife sowed hers after marriage. Maybe they both had to scratch the itch, and Conan times it better. Who knows. I’d be lying if I claimed never to have felt the itch.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> If you are not getting this from the person you made vows together with, and after discussion and counseling they STILL won't step up, then divorce them BEFORE looking for it somewhere else! If the problems are not bad enough to divorce over, they are certainly not bad enough to throw away your integrity and cheat over.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

The above comment is totally right on!. The only think I would add is that marriage causes two people to come together and become one. That puts huge stress on each of them as they continue to grow and evolve over the course of the marriage. Marriage is all about change and it is mostly uncomfortable at times. Moving in together, changing their eating habits, sleeping habits, sharing limited closet space, dividing up household chores, what they do for entertainment, prioritizing the money they spend, all result in compromises and changes in them. Some people evolve and grow quicker than others. Some need to be dragged kicking and screaming to keep up with their spouse.

After marriage, then most couples have children and that changes people hugely. Now there are young lives that need to be taken care of, diapers changed, fed at 2AM, held while they cry. The baby takes priority over the needs of both parents, as it is nature's way. Later, someone has to take the older child to soccer or baseball practice and make sure they get off to school in the morning. 

Ultimately, then the couple become empty nesters and they have to deal with each other all day. They start to think of taking up new hobbies, but find that they also want to connect more with their spouse.

The point is that marriage is all about change, and it will change you. Sometimes the changes are ones you want, sometimes they are stressful changes. You can't force your partner to change with you. Only they can change themself and then only if they want to change.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

I haven't cheated on either of my sexual partners. But I was the OW in an exit affair for the first. And my husband (the second) has had 2 A's. 

Why was I an OW?
Because I was stupid and selfish. I believed then (and still do) that infidelity was wrong and vows should be respected. But I really thought that my "feelings" justified my behavior in ignoring that. And I lied to myself that it wasn't cheating, because it wasn't sexual until he separated from his wife. I don't even have the excuse of being good at compartmentalization - I have a very clear recollection of the day that I knowingly made my choice to cause another pain so that I could be happy. Only I wasn't. 

What did I learn about myself?
I used to believe that my morality was a concrete, absolute thing. Citadel walls, constructed on the foundations of my ideals. Impenetrable. Only they weren't - I got there and they were just lines in the sand. Ones that I will draw and re-draw many times in my lifetime. Now I believe that my character is being defined in each moment by the choices that I make. In this moment. Past good choice don't decide who I am right now, any more than past bad ones do. However, if I disregard the past, then I squander learning painfully earned. And if I lie to myself about that past, then I learn nothing.

So I don't subscribe to the "once a cheater, always a cheater" argument. Who I am today is nothing like the person I was. If nothing else, I draw my lines in very different places now. If I was ever to consider being unfaithful or causing another to be so, I'd like to say that the thought of the pain my actions could cause would be foremost in my mind. But actually, I know that my self-respect will first reach out from wherever it sits and slap me across the face, "WTF? Seriously?". Or something along those lines.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

Oh so easy to say just divorce and move on before getting involved with someone else. But what about when you have numerous kids, even once grown, and a lifetime of entanglements, it’s not so easy. And it’s not necessarily the right thing to do.

So yeah, I have cheated, and I continue to cheat now. And I have absolutely no remorse. Don’t try to feed me the morality crap (now an atheist here after believing in the super catholic rhetoric for years). That’s for you. Not me. I don’t believe there is some medal for the long suffering celibates at the golden gate. 

I gave my entire youth and best sexual years to someone with no passion at all and no great desire for me despite many years of trying to improve that. Maybe he’s gay? Maybe he’s asexual? Maybe I’m not his ideal partner? Who knows because he isn’t going to ever communicate that to me. Yes, maybe it would have been best to leave a long time ago. I wish I had. But I wouldn’t have my great kids. And most of all, I’m not a quitter, and I always had great hopes of him developing some desire or passion. Some improved sexual skills. Something. Anything at all. 

And no, I am not in the least bit fat or undesirable. Him? Yes, he is hugely fat and yet I still desired him. And I’m younger and much more fit than him. Now I finally find him completely undesirable. I gave it more than 27 years before I cheated. I tried everything. I read everything. He did nothing. Tried nothing. Sex every two months was fine for him. Not for me. He never did oral on me. Never! I did for him from the very start. Sex was always mechanical and boring. He never read anything I ever forwarded to him. Never read a single book I ordered for us to improve things. Never was willing to see a dr about his low T. 

And just to be clear, we have the same graduate degree, both good incomes, no issue with finances if we had split. He is not supporting me or supporting me him. We’d both be fine financially if we divorced.

Do I feel guilty? Nope! Not in the least. I only wish I had started cheating sooner and not wasted nearly 30 of my prime sexual years being faithful to someone who broke our vows of “to have and to hold” long before I broke the vow of “forsaking all others.”


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> A lot of interesting stuff here.
> 
> One of the interesting things (to the extent I can be objective) is the evolution of my wife’s perspective on things. Like yours, she hated me at the time of the affair. She could and did blame me for all sorts of things. There was no internet back then and I had no idea that it was normal. I took it pretty badly. But in the end, as you describe, I worked on myself and was the better for it in the longer term.
> 
> ...


Let's be sure to keep it straight concerning your wife and myself. We have behaved quite differently. I didn't cheat when single or married.

I also was very far from being a Christian growing up. The only reason I had as much sex as I did was that was all I was taught in the dark world I lived in. I was a damaged and dangerous young man until I met Mrs. C. I didn't even become a Christian until 5 or 6 years into our relationship and I've never looked back on my previous life with longing. When I look back it is with pain.

I wasn't sowing wild oats. I was just living and surviving in the environment I was born to.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Oh so easy to say just divorce and move on before getting involved with someone else. But what about when you have numerous kids, even once grown, and a lifetime of entanglements, it’s not so easy. And it’s not necessarily the right thing to do.
> 
> So yeah, I have cheated, and I continue to cheat now. And I have absolutely no remorse. Don’t try to feed me the morality crap (now an atheist here after believing in the super catholic rhetoric for years). That’s for you. Not me. I don’t believe there is some medal for the long suffering celibates at the golden gate.
> 
> ...


Is he good with your fing around on him?

I'm curious what your reasons for staying with him?

Your post indicates you have nothing but contempt for him and consider him beneath you.

Do you still let him park his car in your garage when it isn't being used by the public?

If so, why?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Let's be sure to keep it straight concerning your wife and myself. We have behaved quite differently. I didn't cheat when single or married.
> 
> I also was very far from being a Christian growing up. The only reason I had as much sex as I did was that was all I was taught in the dark world I lived in. I was a damaged and dangerous young man until I met Mrs. C. I didn't even become a Christian until 5 or 6 years into our relationship and I've never looked back on my previous life with longing. When I look back it is with pain.
> 
> I wasn't sowing wild oats. I was just living and surviving in the environment I was born to.


Not suggesting you cheated. Really just examining the journey, not that I know enough of yours to do so in any depth. 

I suspect if my wife were more sexually experienced she might have made some key choices differently. I sometimes wonder the same for myself. It’s a complicated world. Hopefully we all learn from our experiences. Hopefully we recognise bad decisions and try not to repeat them.

If you are willing, can you explain how what you were doing could not be seen as sowing wild oats? I don’t understand the line you are drawing there.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Is he good with your fing around on him?
> 
> I'm curious what your reasons for staying with him?
> 
> ...


So I guess you don’t want to stick with the original topic? You don’t want the topic question answered? 
From the OP: “If you cannot stand to read a thread like this and not call cheaters out for being the complete waste of skin that you so clearly see them to be, then this thread is not for you. Please go somewhere else - just about any other thread on infidelity here will serve.“

And lucky for me, I could give a **** what you think. I did not start cheating on a whim. I put 27+ years into devoting my every effort to resolve things. I finally realized it was a complete utter waste. One can not change the inherent passion or libido of someone no matter how much they try. 

And I did not say I have contempt for him. He makes a great brother or roommate. Although he is an ******* a lot of times with his moods and the silent treatments and his curt remarks and general negative attitude that I have tolerated for all these years. About 20 years into this, I told him I was emotionally divorcing him and yet I still continued to put in a 100% effort for another 5 or more years before finally giving up. 

Lots of reasons to stay married despite having a husband that rarely wanted to be sexual with me. Imagine physically not being touched (not even a hug) for months at a time). It might be difficult for the typical man who wants sex any time he can get it from his wife to realize that there are men for don’t desire sex, don’t want physical touch. It’s hard for a woman to accept that she isn’t desired, is never complimented, isn’t appreciated,mand rarely has her presence even acknowledged for days at a time. 

Does he mind that I’m ****ing someone else? I don’t know. Unless I brought the lack of sex up (and I did in the 5 years previous to cheating), he wouldn’t ever acknowledge there was even a problem. So why would I discuss it now with him? That ship has sailed and I would find it hard to believe he doesn’t realize what’s going on. 

But do I care how he would feel now about it? No, not really. Maybe as much as he cared over the years of how I felt about my physical abandonment? I cried my river of tears for years without any effort or explanation from him. So I live for me now and no longer devote my whole life to him. He had 27 years or more of opportunities to show any kind of passion, care, desire, feeling at all towards me. No more chances now.

ETA: My “garage” is not open to public parking. It has a slot for one extra car which is good since that slot remained vacant for the vast majority of my marriage.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Looklistenlearn said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > Is he good with your fing around on him?
> ...


Then why are you here, o bastion of liberated wokeness?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Not suggesting you cheated. Really just examining the journey, not that I know enough of yours to do so in any depth.
> 
> I suspect if my wife were more sexually experienced she might have made some key choices differently. I sometimes wonder the same for myself. It’s a complicated world. Hopefully we all learn from our experiences. Hopefully we recognise bad decisions and try not to repeat them.
> 
> If you are willing, can you explain how what you were doing could not be seen as sowing wild oats? I don’t understand the line you are drawing there.


Dark stuff best left for another thread.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> So I guess you don’t want to stick with the original topic? You don’t want the topic question answered?
> From the OP: “If you cannot stand to read a thread like this and not call cheaters out for being the complete waste of skin that you so clearly see them to be, then this thread is not for you. Please go somewhere else - just about any other thread on infidelity here will serve.“
> 
> And lucky for me, I could give a **** what you think. I did not start cheating on a whim. I put 27+ years into devoting my every effort to resolve things. I finally realized it was a complete utter waste. One can not change the inherent passion or libido of someone no matter how much they try.
> ...


I didn't call you a waste of anything. I simply fed off your own very well illustrated bitterness and resentment from your post.

Attitude goes both ways here. I still don't understand why you would stay married to this guy and you do have utter contempt for him as a husband and nothing but loathing for him as your man.

Why not just separate and be roommates on the up and up?

I get why you went somewhere else for sex. What I don't get is staying at all.

The OP cheated but really loves his wife as a mate. You are not being honest with your "roommate" and you should be.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S. @Looklistenlearn

If you are still allowing your husband access to your vajajay, he has a right to be informed that he is rubbing his junk where another man recently was.

There is a risk he deserves to know he is taking regardless of how safe the situation might seem.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

As MJJEAN said, I just wanted to. I wanted attention. During my marriage, it was only everyday talking to another man - not even sexual. But I knew that I'd crossed a line and that it was wrong. After I was separated, we did meet, and we did have sex.

In terms of what I learned, that's much more difficult. 

'Regret' is more the discomfort of knowing that I was doing something morally/culturally unacceptable - that I was hurting my ex-husband and my children by asking for a divorce and breaking up our family. 

My wiring is somewhat crossed and/or lacking. I do know right from wrong, and I have limited empathy, but I don't miss people or feel lonely. I don't know that I know what love feels like.

So, in pure honesty, inside me, I don't feel regret for talking to another man. And I don't regret my divorce. 

Although, intellectually, I tell myself I've forgiven my ex-husband for his lack of leadership, if my mind goes there, I often still resent/blame him (probably just to make myself feel better). I was in a sexless marriage, and he abandoned me for pornography long before I began talking to someone else.

Although I would never tell my children this, what I do regret is getting married and having a family. I'm not really suited, and if I had it to do all over again, I wouldn't. My children have partly inherited a lot of suffering through genetics, but they've also endured a lot because of my behavior (panic attacks, rages, meltdowns).

The desire to put forth effort and make things better is 100% directed towards my children now (not my ex-husband), and I do that more for them than me.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I didn't call you a waste of anything. I simply fed off your own very well illustrated bitterness and resentment from your post.
> 
> Attitude goes both ways here. I still don't understand why you would stay married to this guy and you do have utter contempt for him as a husband and nothing but loathing for him as your man.
> 
> ...


You’re right. You didn’t call me a waste of human flesh, but your comment about my garage being open for public parking was just meant in jest. Right? Judgmental a bit, huh?

And the request of the OP to hear the reasons someone has cheated is only requested from those who you personally deem as really loving their mate? So you don’t want to really know why? You only want to persecute those who have made a different choice than you?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> You’re right. You didn’t call me a waste of human flesh, but your comment about my garage being open for public parking was just meant in jest. Right? Judgmental a bit, huh?
> 
> And the request of the OP to hear the reasons someone has cheated is only requested from those who you personally deem as really loving their mate? So you don’t want to really know why? You only want to persecute those who have made a different choice than you?


I'm am an A hole for sure but I'm genuinely curious. You came out punching so I hit back a bit.

I'm not in any position to persecute you, nor do I want to. Your situation sucks.

I do have some legitimate questions about your mindset and decisions though and that is fair play here.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> I didn't call you a waste of anything. I simply fed off your own very well illustrated bitterness and resentment from your post.
> 
> Attitude goes both ways here. I still don't understand why you would stay married to this guy and you do have utter contempt for him as a husband and nothing but loathing for him as your man.
> 
> ...


Just curious why I would owe that honesty to my “roommate”? He refused to ever tell me why he had no desire for me. He refused to discuss sex issues for all these years. Why discuss this particular sex “issue” now?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Dark stuff best left for another thread.


Ok, without going into those details then, and genuinely trying to be respectful and not upsetting, let’s talk in general terms.

Did you ever make a sexual decision you later regretted? Are there other things where you did wrong? It seems almost certain from your post. Life is messy, we all make bad decisions sometimes.

You were surviving in the environment you were born to. We all do that. Some of my stupidest decisions were responses to things that were totally not my fault. 

But what makes you better than someone who cheats, because you made a different bad decision? And what sort of people helped you to become a better person?

I think you do a lot of good work here, but I do wonder if you have a bit of a blind spot, and if so why. James 2:10-11, if you want to keep the Christian perspective, though I think it makes perfect sense as a philosophical concept whether you believe in God or not.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Just curious why I would owe that honesty to my “roommate”? He refused to ever tell me why he had no desire for me. He refused to discuss sex issues for all these years. Why discuss this particular sex “issue” now?


Is it fair to say you are deceiving him for your advantage? If you have any sex at all, aren’t you putting his health, and even his life, at risk, and doesn’t he have a right to know that?

Should there be any boundaries in your treatment of him now, or is anything fair game?

If it comes out later, how will your kids feel?

It’s complicated....I personally believe in disclosure but my wife is a bit more “don’t ask, don’t tell” and it causes some tension. That may be informing what I say.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Ok, without going into those details then, and genuinely trying to be respectful and not upsetting, let’s talk in general terms.
> 
> Did you ever make a sexual decision you later regretted? Are there other things where you did wrong? It seems almost certain from your post. Life is messy, we all make bad decisions sometimes.
> 
> ...


I don't actually think I'm better than anyone.

I make note of differences however.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Just curious why I would owe that honesty to my “roommate”? He refused to ever tell me why he had no desire for me. He refused to discuss sex issues for all these years. Why discuss this particular sex “issue” now?


People should be honest about current sex partners at a minimum for informed consent. As nasty as he may be, he deserves the right to choose if he has sex with you and exposing himself to your other sex partner.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> People should be honest about current sex partners at a minimum for informed consent. As nasty as he may be, he deserves the right to choose if he has sex with you and exposing himself to your other sex partner.


And there is the answer. We’d have to be having sex for him to get an std from me. So no worries. He is safe! He is not being exposed to anything. And I’m being safe as well with my one partner and have been recently tested as well.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> And there is the answer. We’d have to be having sex for him to get an std from me. So no worries. He is safe! He is not being exposed to anything. And I’m being safe as well with my one partner and have been recently tested as well.


That's cool on that front. If you two don't even have sex anymore then he doesn't have to be put at risk and uninformed.

I'm still for being straight with him but at least you aren't endangering him and that is good in my book.


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## Looklistenlearn (Jul 3, 2019)

You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago. 

But I’m too tired tonight to write more now. I may try to explain my perspective more tomorrow if indeed people really want to know the why and are willing to see both sides. Otherwise, I will go on my way and just say good luck to any betrayed spouses who are so hurt by a cheating spouse if the betrayed has withheld sex for many years. They don’t want ya but how dare anyone else want ya. And how dare you want to be be wanted by someone. And oh oops! They feel bad for their actions but withholding sex is not nearly as destructive or wrong as cheating, right?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I posit $$$$ is the reason for staying married to a spouse you hate.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

Looklistenlearn said:


> You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago.
> 
> But I’m too tired tonight to write more now. I may try to explain my perspective more tomorrow if indeed people really want to know the why and are willing to see both sides. Otherwise, I will go on my way and just say good luck to any betrayed spouses who are so hurt by a cheating spouse if the betrayed has withheld sex for many years. They don’t want ya but how dare anyone else want ya. And how dare you want to be be wanted by someone. And oh oops! They feel bad for their actions but withholding sex is not nearly as destructive or wrong as cheating, right?


Are you done being belligerent and defensive to a bunch of people who don’t know you, didn’t know your story and haven’t made a negative comment in your direction?

As a fellow wayward I would love to hear your answer to the second part of the OP - what did you learn?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Looklistenlearn said:


> You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago.
> 
> But I’m too tired tonight to write more now. I may try to explain my perspective more tomorrow if indeed people really want to know the why and are willing to see both sides. Otherwise, I will go on my way and just say good luck to any betrayed spouses who are so hurt by a cheating spouse if the betrayed has withheld sex for many years. They don’t want ya but how dare anyone else want ya. And how dare you want to be be wanted by someone. And oh oops! They feel bad for their actions but withholding sex is not nearly as destructive or wrong as cheating, right?


Witholding sex is nearly as bad as infidelity in my view.

You might want to just pull back a little with your snark unless you want it back. Turn about and all.

Infidelity is apparently a light subject for you and that would be interesting to understand your perspective but it is a much more serious matter for most others.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Looklistenlearn said:
> 
> 
> > You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago.
> ...


 Exactly. I know what it is like to live in a sexless marriage with someone who treat you as if you are invisible. It is more painful than anyone can imagine unless they have been there. But the abrasive, flippant, quite frankly *****iness attitude is what is putting people off. A little bit of empathy and humility might go a long way.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Oh so easy to say just divorce and move on before getting involved with someone else. But what about when you have numerous kids, even once grown, and a lifetime of entanglements, it’s not so easy. And it’s not necessarily the right thing to do.
> 
> So yeah, I have cheated, and I continue to cheat now. And I have absolutely no remorse. Don’t try to feed me the morality crap (now an atheist here after believing in the super catholic rhetoric for years). That’s for you. Not me. I don’t believe there is some medal for the long suffering celibates at the golden gate.
> 
> ...


This is the part I don't understand. You and your husband are never going to be sex partners. You find him completely undesirable. Your resent the hell out of him. You have sex with another man. 

You say you both have adequate incomes and could support yourselves. The children are grown.

So why, why, why are you not divorcing?


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Looklistenlearn said:
> 
> 
> > Oh so easy to say just divorce and move on before getting involved with someone else. But what about when you have numerous kids, even once grown, and a lifetime of entanglements, it’s not so easy. And it’s not necessarily the right thing to do.
> ...


$$$$$$$


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Just curious why I would owe that honesty to my “roommate”? He refused to ever tell me why he had no desire for me. He refused to discuss sex issues for all these years. Why discuss this particular sex “issue” now?


Refusing to talk to you.
For years.

Thing to do was to have an intervention to get him to go to a MC with you
so you tell him what is wrong in front of a neutral party the MC, or priest and
you spell out what is needed to continue the marriage or you are leaving, many
years ago.

Cheating only relieves the horniness. It does not fix a bad marriage.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Looklistenlearn said:


> Lots of reasons to stay married despite having a husband that rarely wanted to be sexual with me. Imagine physically not being touched (not even a hug) for months at a time). It might be difficult for the typical man who wants sex any time he can get it from his wife to realize that there are men for don’t desire sex, don’t want physical touch. It’s hard for a woman to accept that she isn’t desired, is never complimented, isn’t appreciated,mand rarely has her presence even acknowledged for days at a time.
> 
> 
> 
> Does he mind that I’m ****ing someone else? I don’t know. Unless I brought the lack of sex up (and I did in the 5 years previous to cheating), he wouldn’t ever acknowledge there was even a problem. So why would I discuss it now with him? That ship has sailed and I would find it hard to believe he doesn’t realize what’s going on.


I don't get it, you tolerated his behavior so long and although voiced it to him you took no action....ultimately is actions that get results in life. 
Now you are dealing with the repercussions of your lack of actions, and I consider cheating hardly a solution for anything.....you should have separated, and heck why not even just told him straight up you were going to find and hook up w someone else? Why even need the secrecy and all.....

You may think cheating is no big deal and have no remorse and that's OK, but if your AP is married or attached then you have no control of him getting caught, and neither do you have any control over what his spouse might do......and is well known that infidelity can in some cases lead to violence, personal injury and even death.... Not judging you, just my 2 cents. 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Looklistenlearn said:


> You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago.
> 
> But I’m too tired tonight to write more now. I may try to explain my perspective more tomorrow if indeed people really want to know the why and are willing to see both sides. Otherwise, I will go on my way and just say good luck to any betrayed spouses who are so hurt by a cheating spouse if the betrayed has withheld sex for many years. They don’t want ya but how dare anyone else want ya. And how dare you want to be be wanted by someone. And oh oops! They feel bad for their actions but withholding sex is not nearly as destructive or wrong as cheating, right?




Many people deserve to get dumped. 

Nobody deserves to get cheated on except those that do it themselves. 

You sold your integrity in exchange for sex and the easy way out. I hope it was worth it.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

Looklistenlearn said:


> You know there is so much more to this topic. It is not so clear cut, the cheater is evil and the poor betrayed is so undeserving of the cheater’s horrible actions. I actually thought that way until a few years ago.
> 
> But I’m too tired tonight to write more now. I may try to explain my perspective more tomorrow if indeed people really want to know the why and are willing to see both sides. Otherwise, I will go on my way and just say good luck to any betrayed spouses who are so hurt by a cheating spouse if the betrayed has withheld sex for many years. They don’t want ya but how dare anyone else want ya. And how dare you want to be be wanted by someone. And oh oops! They feel bad for their actions but withholding sex is not nearly as destructive or wrong as cheating, right?


I don’t believe the cheaters are evil. There are many sexual mismatches out there. A person who marries agrees to exclusive sex, not celibacy. I personally prefer honesty and putting the ball in your partner’s court (“fix this, agree to let me date others, or we divorce - your choice”). But I agree with Dan Savage that sometimes a good marriage, such as yours, can be saved by cheating. If your H knows what’s going on but chooses to look the other way, even better. 

You both want what your marriage is providing, don’t want to hurt your kids, families, friends, neighbors, etc. You are a socially monogamous couple that’s part of a community. I think it’s good that you’re maintaining that.

Cheating isn’t something that one does to the BS, it’s something the WS does for oneself with the hope and intent of harming no one.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

CraigBesuden said:


> I don’t believe the cheaters are evil. There are many sexual mismatches out there. A person who marries agrees to exclusive sex, not celibacy. I personally prefer honesty and putting the ball in your partner’s court (“fix this, agree to let me date others, or we divorce - your choice”). But I agree with Dan Savage that sometimes a good marriage, such as yours, can be saved by cheating. If your H knows what’s going on but chooses to look the other way, even better.
> 
> You both want what your marriage is providing, don’t want to hurt your kids, families, friends, neighbors, etc. You are a socially monogamous couple that’s part of a community. I think it’s good that you’re maintaining that.
> 
> Cheating isn’t something that one does to the BS, it’s something the WS does for oneself with the hope and intent of harming no one.



My experience has been:

In my first marriage, it was sexless for the last 6+ months of it. It coincided with what I believe was the start of her affair, and it coincided with the start of the worst of her emotional and physical abuse. All of this makes sense. However, she also claimed that I was emotionally abusing her (which I wasn’t), and that I was the cause for our marriage to be sexless (which I wasn’t.)

So, to an outside observer, were one to talk to her alone, they’d say “I get why you had an affair and left that loser Marduk. I mean, he was abusive, cheating, and depriving you of sex.” Only that wasn’t what was actually happening at all. The kicker is that I actually think she believes her own story - she would say that she was being honest. But all she was doing was rationalizing what she was doing, and had lied to herself so many times that she now believed it.

Years later, when I was married to my current wife, I had my buddy and his wife over for a BBQ. While he and I were alone, he confided in me that his wife had realized that she was asexual, and he was coming to terms with the thought of never having sex again. He was struggling with it, but at least it had nothing to do with him, and he was trying to keep his family together. So he decided to live with it. A few weeks later, I get a knock on the door while I’m alone in the house. It’s his wife. Wearing a very tight and low cut top, tight shorts, and she just kind of invited herself in. After some brief chit-chat, she tells me that her husband has been refusing to have sex with her for years, and she makes it pretty obvious that she wants to have a fling with me. I got her out the door and have never spoken to her again, and told my wife everything of course. What’s real in that situation? Who knows? But what I do know is that my buddy’s best friend didn’t say no to her, and he found out, and they ended up divorced.

So I always question what the point of asking a cheater why they cheated. There’s always so many layers of rationalization to cut through that who’s to say what is real? I’m sure some people cheat because they can’t take being forced into celibacy. I’m sure some people claim that they have been forced into celibacy and they haven’t. I mean, I certainly wanted to have sex with my ex wife. We even went to therapy about it, but she refused to do any of the work. But she still claimed that I forced celibacy on her.

I agree with Dan Savage on a great many things. But about cheating he’s 100% wrong. Flat out. He is in an open marriage, so stepping out is no big deal to him. He doesn’t see the PTSD. The shock of getting an STD from your supposedly monogamous spouse. The bitter divorces. The scars it leaves, for some for life. The torment of those that regret cheating. He just sees - and wants - people to have a fulfilling sex life. Which is great. But he’s bought into the concept of no harm cheating, which is a total fallacy. He’s also bought into the concept that staying in a bad marriage and lying about stepping out to keep it going is a good thing, which it isn’t.

Ethical non-monogamy is fine. Deceptive non-monogamy is abuse. And what Dan Savage is actually advocating for in these cases - in a very limited fashion - is actually that it’s OK to be abusive. That there are justifications for it. This is no different than an abusive husband excusing his own violence because his spouse made him mad.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Marduk said:


> My experience has been:
> 
> In my first marriage, it was sexless for the last 6+ months of it. It coincided with what I believe was the start of her affair, and it coincided with the start of the worst of her emotional and physical abuse. All of this makes sense. However, she also claimed that I was emotionally abusing her (which I wasn’t), and that I was the cause for our marriage to be sexless (which I wasn’t.)
> 
> ...


This needs to be an essay or article or sticky or something.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> Ethical non-monogamy is fine. Deceptive non-monogamy is abuse. And what Dan Savage is actually advocating for in these cases - in a very limited fashion - is actually that it’s OK to be abusive. That there are justifications for it. This is no different than an abusive husband excusing his own violence because his spouse made him mad.


Dan Fan here as well.

What he says, and has always said, is that a sexually mismatched marriage is a bad thing which, if it cannot be fixed or tolerated, has two bad outcomes - divorce or cheating.

His position has always been that divorce is not always possible, and that there are instances when cheating is the lesser of two evils, and on this I agree with him. I have never heard him advocate for cheating as a first course of action - only the last.

If your spouse were suddenly turned into a quadrapalegic (or otherwise rendered physically incapable of sex - pick your method), then it is not hard in my opinion to make a case for ethical non-mongamy, as an example. Telling someone about an affair under these circumstances, or similar, can do nothing but harm since it is not in the power of the other person to fix. You're being a good spouse. Doing the sickness and health thing, and causing no unecessary harm nor emotional damage.

If your spouse declares himself asexual and will have nothing to do with you in bed, but you want to put your 3 year old child to bed every night and have breakfast with her every morning, then you can either be honest about your intent to step outside of the marriage and blow it up from the inside and hope your spouse wants to co-habitate as roommates, or you can cheat on a spouse who already abrogated the marital contract anyway. Plenty here will argue that you must tell your spouse, but I'm much too pragmatic to require anyone do anything that has no material benefit and huge potential downside.

Of course, none of this applies to most of us, and should not be construed as general advice for the masses. Dan is not in my never humble opinion 100% wrong on this.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Dan Fan here as well.
> 
> What he says, and has always said, is that a sexually mismatched marriage is a bad thing which, if it cannot be fixed or tolerated, has two bad outcomes - divorce or cheating.
> 
> His position has always been that divorce is not always possible, and that there are instances when cheating is the lesser of two evils, and on this I agree with him. I have never heard him advocate for cheating as a first course of action - only the last.


And on this I disagree. Cheating is not the lesser of two evils because cheating is abuse, and cheating is not required. Humans do not require sex to live, most require sex to be happy. Therefore, you want it. Prioritizing a want to enable abuse is unethical. 

There is always the option of divorce, and there is always the option of an open marriage. 



> If your spouse were suddenly turned into a quadrapalegic (or otherwise rendered physically incapable of sex - pick your method), then it is not hard in my opinion to make a case for ethical non-mongamy, as an example. Telling someone about an affair under these circumstances, or similar, can do nothing but harm since it is not in the power of the other person to fix. You're being a good spouse. Doing the sickness and health thing, and causing no unecessary harm nor emotional damage.


If I became sexually incapacitated I would offer my wife a divorce or an open marriage because I love her and want her to be happy. I would expect her not to cheat if she declined either of those things. 



> If your spouse declares himself asexual and will have nothing to do with you in bed, but you want to put your 3 year old child to bed every night and have breakfast with her every morning, then you can either be honest about your intent to step outside of the marriage and blow it up from the inside and hope your spouse wants to co-habitate as roommates, or you can cheat on a spouse who already abrogated the marital contract anyway. Plenty here will argue that you must tell your spouse, but I'm much too pragmatic to require anyone do anything that has no material benefit and huge potential downside.


Your spouse declaring themselves asexual changes the rules of the marriage, and hence forces a renegotiation. That can mean celibacy, or it can mean an open marriage, or it can mean a civilized divorce. It’s really up to both of you to decide what you want. None of those things are done with a gun to your head. They are things you decide. 

And if you can’t have that conversation then you have no business being married. 



> Of course, none of this applies to most of us, and should not be construed as general advice for the masses. Dan is not in my never humble opinion 100% wrong on this.



He is wise in many things. 

He also thinks Esther Perel is fantastic. Even though many if not most prominent therapists have condoned her work as harmful and misleading, for example.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Marduk said:


> And on this I disagree.


Then we shall cordially disagree, neither considering the other an amoral *********.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I won't cheat or open my marriage under any circumstances but my God is the defining factor here and I am not going to hold anyone else to my standards.

I might make an argument against a choice but I'm not holding someone else up to standards they never even agreed to.

If Mrs. C can't physically have sex due to any condition, we will be just fine.

If she ever decided we were not having sex anymore just cuz??? End of our marriage.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> I won't cheat or open my marriage under any circumstances but my God is the defining factor here and I am not going to hold anyone else to my standards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’m in exactly the same boat. I’m by her side no matter what, even if something happens to her that means that life is a lot less fun. Sickness and health, and all that. 

But if she spontaneously decided to change the rules, different story.


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## oldtruck (Feb 15, 2018)

No sex is not justification for cheating.
Fix the problem or divorce.

In sickness and in health. Do we divorce a wife/husband because she/he is to ill
to cook for us? No.

Do we divorce is them if they refuse to cook for us?
Yes.

Same with logic sex.

Does one have to divorce for those reasons?
No.

When staying married is more important then one accepts take out.

Buying food to go is not cheating.

Sex with anyone else but your own spose is cheating. So if sex is that
important of a need then you divorce if you cannot find a solution to
getting sex from one's spouse.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I won't cheat or open my marriage under any circumstances but my God is the defining factor here and I am not going to hold anyone else to my standards.
> 
> I might make an argument against a choice but I'm not holding someone else up to standards they never even agreed to.
> 
> ...


While I agree with this, I think opening up your marriage is unwise and dangerous, regardless of religious beliefs. 

Either you control your sexuality or it controls you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Wazza said:


> While I agree with this, I think opening up your marriage is unwise and dangerous, regardless of religious beliefs.
> 
> Either you control your sexuality or it controls you.


I'm against it of course. I just won't try to hold someone to my standards that has no ties to my God.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Ethical non-monogamy is fine. Deceptive non-monogamy is abuse. And what Dan Savage is actually advocating for in these cases - in a very limited fashion - is actually that it’s OK to be abusive.


Although I think deceptive non-monogamy is very poor form, I don't think it is abuse at all. And I hold that opinion, even after having experienced a very bitter divorce and more following my ex-wife's infidelity.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Personal said:


> Although I think deceptive non-monogamy is very poor form, I don't think it is abuse at all. And I hold that opinion, even after having experienced a very bitter divorce and more following my ex-wife's infidelity.




I hold that opinion after decades of research, talking to people that have cheated, are cheating, thinking about cheating, being cheated on, and to multiple therapists. 

Cheating is no different than many other kinds of abuse, and is frequently associated with the following kinds of emotional abuse:

- gaslighting 
- minimization
- lying 
- belittling
- betrayal

And the following kinds of physical abuse:
- exposure to the risk of STDs non-consensually

It also frequently leaves the betrayed with symptoms of PTSD, fundamental mistrust of people, feelings of isolation, and can actually lead to abusive behaviour of their own in later relationships. Just like with other forms of abuse. 

The only kind of infidelity that may not be abusive is a one night stand that is immediately confessed, although that can also lead to PTSD and other things.

Some therapists are waking up to this, even with Esther Perel and her clones spouting nonsense.


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