# So many men are so abused on these and other forums.



## sokillme

It's the same story over and over, the wife or girlfriend uses their man's natural instinct to protect her to her advantage. It's very sad.


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## NextTimeAround

I think it is fascinating how people can use "acceptable" behavior, amp it up and, steathily, it becomes abusive.

My mother is like that. I know now when she asks those vague questions like "are you sure that....." and "is it possible that......." she is asking me to make feel uncomfortable and uncertain. 
@sokillme, give us some examples of behaviors that can become abusive.


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## sokillme

No examples. It's just post after post of husbands, and boyfriends whose wives and mates have affairs. Always the same story, social media, old friend, friend from work. How sorry the wives now are. And them men revert to their natural desire to protect their wives and continue to get that used against them. It's very sad.

There always seems to be very little consequence compared to the pain these men feel.


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## aine

It is also sad how many women on here, dedicate their whole lives to their husbands, taking care of a family and the home and then they are unceremoniously dumped for a piece of crumpet with no loyalty, no care, empathy consideration. Unfortunately, this is life. In life there are many many people of low character.


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## Young at Heart

sokillme said:


> It's the same story over and over, the wife or girlfriend uses their man's natural instinct to protect her to her advantage. It's very sad.


One of the great things about MW Davis various books Divorce Busting, Sex Starved Marriage, etc. is that a abused spouse can only change themself, but they can change the treatment they will accept and how they will allow their spouse to treat them.

At the depth of my sex starved marriage, my wife was torn. Part of her loved me and part of her was very angry with me. If we did something that made her feel love or have feelings toward me, she would pick fights with me (in an abusive way) so as regain her emotional distance. 

I first had to figure out what was happening. Then I needed to figure out that I wasn't going to get angry no matter what she said or did. I needed to simple not let her 'bait me" into a fight. I remember at a nice dinner, she caught herself thinking how great a time she was having and then verbally snapped at me. Rather than getting angry, I just looked at her ans asked her why she said what she had said. I asked what was it that I had specifically done to warrant her saying what she said. She was like a "deer in the headlights." She said she didn't know. 

It was hard work to no longer allow myself to be emotionally abused by her, but it paid off. She soon realized that the old things she used to control me and herself no longer worked.

We are all capable of change. We don't need to take abuse.


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## Bibi1031

sokillme said:


> It's the same story over and over, the wife or girlfriend uses their man's natural instinct to protect her to her advantage. It's very sad.


I would agree with you if you changed girlfriend or wife with simply WS and BS. So many women are abused on these and other forums as well. Abuse through infidelity or selfishness is not gender biased, and that is sad but at least equal.

Awareness is key. Classes about the ugly truth instead of the fairytale crap of soulmate and happily ever after should be taught to couples that sign up to get married. It would be ideal if we could make couples who decide to be long term partners even if marriage for them is not necessary would be advised to take these classes as well. It may not avoid selfishness or infidelity, but at least there won't be as many "blindsidedness" going on left and right with BS.


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## sokillme

Just to clarify, I posted in the men's section to talk about men who are cheated on. There seems to be a particular pattern in the stories that are specific to female cheaters. This is quite obvious when you read enough. There is a pattern to male cheaters as well but that is not the topic of conversation on this post. 

This was not to make a gender comparison or any assessment about which sex cheats more. It's unfortunate that so many posts seem to need to point this out. We can all acknowledge that people from both sexes suck.


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## Bibi1031

That's the thing, I don't see them all that different. Maybe here we finally see more men looking for help and that is why we indeed have a lot. 

The forum I joined when my X cheated was the other way around. There were very few men whose wife's had cheated. This was about 14 years ago though. Maybe more men are opening up on public online forums now than they used to be let's say 10 years ago? 

That may be the reason why we now see that many cheating women are just as bad as cheating men now and before. 

Any way, just a thought.


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## MrsAldi

I think men are less willing to share their cheating story with their friends in real life, so probably post more on forums like this. 
Some men don't discuss their emotional turmoils with friends and family whereas women usually confide more to their support group. 

If you're a woman you're taught not to stay with a man who cheats, you're taught by magazines or your friends how to cope with it. Men are less likely to discuss these issues and suffer I would say emotionally more than women. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

It is a two way street.


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## Bananapeel

It's not as bad as it seems. Lots of men (myself included) ended up a lot better off, so it was a time of growth rather than a time of abuse.


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## Kivlor

sokillme said:


> Just to clarify, I posted in the men's section to talk about men who are cheated on. There seems to be a particular pattern in the stories that are specific to female cheaters. This is quite obvious when you read enough. There is a pattern to male cheaters as well but that is not the topic of conversation on this post.
> 
> This was not to make a gender comparison or any assessment about which sex cheats more. It's unfortunate that so many posts seem to need to point this out. We can all acknowledge that people from both sexes suck.


You don't understand. Men can't have problems. Women can have problems. People can have problems. Any discussion of men, however, must be equivocated and have plenty of "of course women too" statements added. 

It's the natural tendency of women to gaslight men. You can watch it endlessly, not only on TAM but anywhere.

It's not limited to men and women either. Look at how people freak out in so many threads, when we talk about general trends in a group, immediately interjecting the same whataboutery.


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## jorgegene

One of the saddest stories I ever read was on another forum years ago.

it was an ongoing story of an older guy, very successful engineer in his profession.
but, early on in his marriage, he caught his wife in a car with another man doing
bad things. His wife, rather than being embarrassed and sorrowful instead turned on him.

she turned cold as ice, spiteful and hateful. She never hinted at divorce, but never, ever
again let him touch her, not even a kiss or hug after 30 years.

to make this even sadder, this guy would groan every chance he got about how he
would love to have just one hug from his wife. The forum population would bash him
and exhort him to leave her, but he just wouldnt. 

Instead, he would just go on and on about how and why his wife could treat him this 
way.

now, I know what some of you might be thinking.........it's his own fault!

Yes, of course, but doesn't make it any less tragic. And how would you like to be the wife,
carrying all that hate all these years?


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## becareful2

I think factors like liberalism, feminism, and low self-esteem have emasculated so many of these men who show up on forums like this. The "controlling card" gets played against them and they have no idea how to react to it. When their cheating wives accuse them of being controlling, they seem to have no idea on how to shut that down. They feel bad for snooping on their wives and express how awful it makes them feel. They grovel and chase after their cheating wives to R at any cost. For every 10 betrayed husbands, it seems only about 3 have the courage to kick their cheating wives to the curb. The rest make excuses to justify their R: staying for the kids, too many years have been invested in their marriage, they made a vow to stay through thick and thin, etc. These reasons seem noble on the surface but if we dig a little deeper, we often find that these husbands are codependent and scared of what is out there. The worst has to be the husbands who allow themselves to be cuckolded while their wives flaunt their affairs in their face.


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## Kivlor

My take on the root causes of the spread of this weakness, where men put up with such things is a combination of single motherhood, and the naturally unbalanced character that will inspire in boys, mixed with all of the "toxic masculinity" commentary constantly acting as if by being male you are defective. 

We can trace a lot of this back to feminism and no-fault divorce, which led to the ridiculous mistreatment of men by the Justice System, rewarded single motherhood, rewarded women who take advantage of their husbands, and forced men out of their sons lives. We've seen 3+ generations of this, so now a large number of men never had any men to lead them out of their childhood and into manhood. 

These boys were raised by women who were sucking the life out of them as children, in a sick, vampiric fashion. It is only natural that they would marry similar women to their own mothers. And because their mothers did this to them, they don't know how to stop it, nor do they even believe they should. It's normal to them. 

No matter what women want to say with their "you go girl!" "we're just as great as men at everything!" slogans, women will never be capable of raising men. That requires men. It would be like asking a fish to teach a squirrel to climb trees.


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## GTdad

I think we're straying from the premise of the thread, which is that "so many" men are abused on this and other forums.

My reaction is pretty much the same as when I read about how women are abused on this and other forums:


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## NextTimeAround

Kivlor said:


> My take on the root causes of the spread of this weakness, where men put up with such things is a combination of single motherhood, and the naturally unbalanced character that will inspire in boys, mixed with all of the "toxic masculinity" commentary constantly acting as if by being male you are defective.
> 
> .


This is where I say it's men's faults. there would not be so many single moms if men simply ignored them.

In the olden days, there was a sense when women had children out of wedlock and they were considered "damaged goods." Even in the '70s when I was a teenager, my parents put the fear of god in me. No man would ever consider me for marriage if I ever had a child out of wedlock.

These days, men think women with babies are hot. so why wouldn't more and more single women use men as sperm donors or think of their marriage as a starter marriage to hurry up, have kids and then get the guy they really want.

I remember in my 20s how a guy passed me over for a single mom. She was in high school with my brother and still partying until her water broke. That's when I learned, never assume that I know what a man wants or needs.


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## naiveonedave

NextTimeAround said:


> This is where I say it's men's faults. there would not be so many single moms if men simply ignored them.
> 
> In the olden days, there was a sense when women had children out of wedlock and they were considered "damaged goods." Even in the '70s when I was a teenager, my parents put the fear of god in me. No man would ever consider me for marriage if I ever had a child out of wedlock.
> 
> These days, men think women with babies are hot. so why wouldn't more and more single women use men as sperm donors or think of their marriage as a starter marriage to hurry up, have kids and then get the guy they really want.
> 
> I remember in my 20s how a guy passed me over for a single mom. She was in high school with my brother and still partying until her water broke. That's when I learned, never assume that I know what a man wants or needs.


Meh, the courts do a number on very limited contact by fathers. Not so much now, but 20-40 years ago 1 weekend a month was typical. Also had to be a dad, when most of your pay check is lost to alimony and child support (again, not as bad now, but 1 generation ago, truly horrible for many divorced men).


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## NoChoice

NextTimeAround said:


> This is where I say it's men's faults. there would not be so many single moms if men simply ignored them.
> 
> In the olden days, there was a sense when women had children out of wedlock and they were considered "damaged goods." Even in the '70s when I was a teenager, my parents put the fear of god in me. No man would ever consider me for marriage if I ever had a child out of wedlock.
> 
> These days, men think women with babies are hot. so why wouldn't more and more single women use men as sperm donors or think of their marriage as a starter marriage to hurry up, have kids and then get the guy they really want.
> 
> I remember in my 20s how a guy passed me over for a single mom. She was in high school with my brother and still partying until her water broke. That's when I learned, never assume that I know what a man wants or needs.


Perhaps it is your definition of "men" that is giving you pause. Do not confuse "man" with "male". To be male requires only the proper genitalia, to be a man requires the right genitalia AND character, integrity, honor, accountability, grit, empathy, determination, dedication, bravery and much more. A male is born, a man is made, usually by following the example of the men before him. If these traits inspire abuse in some self serving, immature females then so be it, the man will survive, hopefully to find a good woman next time.


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## Kivlor

NextTimeAround said:


> This is where I say it's men's faults. there would not be so many single moms if men simply ignored them.
> 
> In the olden days, there was a sense when women had children out of wedlock and they were considered "damaged goods." Even in the '70s when I was a teenager, my parents put the fear of god in me. No man would ever consider me for marriage if I ever had a child out of wedlock.
> 
> These days, men think women with babies are hot. so why wouldn't more and more single women use men as sperm donors or think of their marriage as a starter marriage to hurry up, have kids and then get the guy they really want.
> 
> I remember in my 20s how a guy passed me over for a single mom. She was in high school with my brother and still partying until her water broke. That's when I learned, never assume that I know what a man wants or needs.


To be sure, in the end they are in control of their own lives, and so they have to own their decisions. But if you want to look into the why, I think you'll find merit in my analysis. Boys who had emotionally incestuous single mothers as their parent, and little to no father present to prevent that are going to normalize it. They'll normalize everything bad about their mother. And apologize for it. It will always be someone else's fault. 

They'll look for a woman who needs taken care of, because mommy needed taken care of, and that's his base model to project from. It's dad's fault mom had all those problems. It's dad's fault she is financially unstable. etc etc. Then when cheating happens in their own relationships they say "it's the OM's fault" or "it's my fault" etc. When their wife abuses them, it isn't because she's a violent harpy and women are naturally violent creatures, it's because he's stressing her out. On and on.

I'm offering a look at the psychology at work here. Once you get used to it, you can spot a son of a single mother at the end of post #2


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## sokillme

MrsAldi said:


> I think men are less willing to share their cheating story with their friends in real life, so probably post more on forums like this.
> Some men don't discuss their emotional turmoils with friends and family whereas women usually confide more to their support group.
> 
> If you're a woman you're taught not to stay with a man who cheats, you're taught by magazines or your friends how to cope with it. Men are less likely to discuss these issues and suffer I would say emotionally more than women.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


Interesting. Makes some sense.

I am amazed that there are so many women who do this though. It's the same thing over and over. I guess though it could be true that it always happened it's just that is much more visible with the internet. I also think the idea that women are the fairer sex is is a kind of fallacy that the media perpetrates, Men are Dogs, Women are victims. I used to believe that, now I think both are dogs and both are victims.


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## sokillme

becareful2 said:


> I think factors like liberalism, feminism, and low self-esteem have emasculated so many of these men who show up on forums like this. The "controlling card" gets played against them and they have no idea how to react to it. When their cheating wives accuse them of being controlling, they seem to have no idea on how to shut that down. They feel bad for snooping on their wives and express how awful it makes them feel. They grovel and chase after their cheating wives to R at any cost. For every 10 betrayed husbands, it seems only about 3 have the courage to kick their cheating wives to the curb. The rest make excuses to justify their R: staying for the kids, too many years have been invested in their marriage, they made a vow to stay through thick and thin, etc. These reasons seem noble on the surface but if we dig a little deeper, we often find that these husbands are codependent and scared of what is out there. The worst has to be the husbands who allow themselves to be cuckolded while their wives flaunt their affairs in their face.


Do you think this contributes to the type of women they marry? I do. Now I am talking here about the most extreme examples. 

I believe it is the lack of having a Father figure in their youth. I think that is the role that teaches both sexes about this kind of stuff. It is in the Mother's instinct to protect their child (this is normal and healthy, it's in most mothers nature), the Father usually pushes and is less accommodating, lets them suffer consequences longer. Also I don't know about you but I was much more afraid of my Dad then my Mom, and that created motivation. That creates confidence and strength in people. Plus it provides an example of a strong man.


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## sokillme

NextTimeAround said:


> This is where I say it's men's faults. there would not be so many single moms if men simply ignored them.
> 
> In the olden days, there was a sense when women had children out of wedlock and they were considered "damaged goods." Even in the '70s when I was a teenager, my parents put the fear of god in me. No man would ever consider me for marriage if I ever had a child out of wedlock.
> 
> These days, men think women with babies are hot. so why wouldn't more and more single women use men as sperm donors or think of their marriage as a starter marriage to hurry up, have kids and then get the guy they really want.
> 
> I remember in my 20s how a guy passed me over for a single mom. She was in high school with my brother and still partying until her water broke. That's when I learned, never assume that I know what a man wants or needs.


I never got the idea of blaming women for being single parents. Both parents had the responsibility to use protection. Both parents have a responsibility to be involved if they have the kid. It's always a tragedy when one is not whether by choice or force.


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## NextTimeAround

sokillme said:


> I never got the idea of blaming women for being single parents. Both parents had the responsibility to use protection. Both parents have a responsibility to be involved if they have the kid. It's always a tragedy when one is not whether by choice or force.


With the way things are now:

1. If either party does not want a child, then yes, they are responsible for protection.

2. I hear that the "condom can break" for excuses, including how to explain how a woman has contracted AIDS (oh dear)

3. It is up to women (in most US states) whether to keep the baby.... either by eschewing abortion or adoption.

So with women having more choice in the situation, maybe they should bear more of the responsibility.

But still, a man who does not see a future with a woman should suit up. Screw that bear back feeling that you're looking for.

I can think of one or two guys that I am glad I did not get pregnant with....... and I think that they would have loved the lifelong connection with me. I also grew up in a bible belt state....... where the man can control what happens to the child........

so regarding birth control, who would have been blamed then?


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## sokillme

NextTimeAround said:


> With the way things are now:
> 
> 1. If either party does not want a child, then yes, they are responsible for protection.
> 
> 2. I hear that the "condom can break" for excuses, including how to explain how a woman has contracted AIDS (oh dear)
> 
> 3. It is up to women (in most US states) whether to keep the baby.... either by eschewing abortion or adoption.
> 
> So with women having more choice in the situation, maybe they should bear more of the responsibility.
> 
> But still, a man who does not see a future with a woman should suit up. Screw that bear back feeling that you're looking for.
> 
> I can think of one or two guys that I am glad I did not get pregnant with....... and I think that they would have loved the lifelong connection with me. I also grew up in a bible belt state....... where the man can control what happens to the child........
> 
> so regarding birth control, who would have been blamed then?


Every time you have sex you are responsible for the results regardless of your gender. It's the risk you take. Personally I always used a condom before I was married but if it broke, that was the risk I took.


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## MrsAldi

sokillme said:


> Interesting. Makes some sense.
> 
> I am amazed that there are so many women who do this though. It's the same thing over and over. I guess though it could be true that it always happened it's just that is much more visible with the internet. I also think the idea that women are the fairer sex is is a kind of fallacy that the media perpetrates, Men are Dogs, Women are victims. I used to believe that, now I think both are dogs and both are victims.


I couldn't tell you why people do the things they do. 
Yes, there is definitely equality now when it comes to adultery. Why? I presume that there is a litany of reasons/excuses. 

Perhaps it's best to focus on educating men on being more open to being aware of their hurt etc, how to deal and communicate with depression and anxiety after being cheated on. 

If I have a son, I will be definitely educating him on how to handle himself when things in his personal life hit rock bottom. Make sure that he knows there is support out there and that it's not the end of the world if you are betrayed. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

MrsAldi said:


> Make sure that he knows there is support out there and that it's not the end of the world if you are betrayed.


Yeah this is a big one. It's OK for things to end.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Well, you received your answer why and probably didn't even notice.


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## EleGirl

MrsAldi said:


> I think men are less willing to share their cheating story with their friends in real life, so probably post more on forums like this.
> 
> Some men don't discuss their emotional turmoils with friends and family whereas women usually confide more to their support group.


The population on any forum is self selected, meaning that people chose if they want to stay or not. There are a lot of forums on which most of the members are female. TAM is a bit unusual in that a large percentage of our members are male. I think that is because there we have very active, long term, male members who are very outspoken in support of males. A lot of the women who come to TAM do not stay here because TAM is not as supportive of women in general.



MrsAldi said:


> If you're a woman you're taught not to stay with a man who cheats, you're taught by magazines or your friends how to cope with it. Men are less likely to discuss these issues and suffer I would say emotionally more than women.


Until very recently (10 years ago or so) women were taught that it was natural for men to cheat. And women were expected to look the other way. One of the major reasons for this is that back then, most women could not make enough money to support herself and her children. So if her husband cheated, she was trapped. Her only real choice was put up and shut up.

Perhaps the reason that you have seen things like magazines telling women to leave a cheating husband is that there has been a need to tell women that now that women can work and earn enough to leave a bad marriage, they no longer have to live by old rules of putting up and shutting up.

Twenty some years ago I read some statistics about infidelity. One that has stuck with me is that back then, when men cheated, 98% of betrayed women stayed in the marriage with their cheating husband. When a woman cheated, only about 10% of betrayed men stayed in the marriage.

Today things seem to be evening out a bit more. But men are still more likely to leave a cheating wife then women are likely to leave a cheating husband. I cannot find it now, but I've read more recently that men are still far more likely to leave women who cheated than the other way around.


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## aine

sokillme said:


> Just to clarify, I posted in the men's section to talk about men who are cheated on. There seems to be a particular pattern in the stories that are specific to female cheaters. This is quite obvious when you read enough. There is a pattern to male cheaters as well but that is not the topic of conversation on this post.
> 
> This was not to make a gender comparison or any assessment about which sex cheats more. It's unfortunate that so many posts seem to need to point this out. We can all acknowledge that people from both sexes suck.


Apologies, my bad :|


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## nekonamida

I completely agree that this thread is for focusing specifically on the plight of men who have been abused. If you want to talk about abused women, another thread should be made for that. It's irrelevant to this thread's focus.

The abuse of men is definitely far more widespread than anyone is willing to admit. It's not given the spotlight it needs or deserves. I can think of 3 friends of mine over the years who have been in an a physically abusive relationship with a woman and many more who have been in emotionally abusive relationships. Not a single one of them was raised by a single mom with an absent father. In fact, a guy I know who just recently moved in with his girlfriend who punches him in the face when she is angry was raised in a two parent home with a dad who was a lifelong farmer - the strong and silent type. But guess what? His mom was a harpy who screamed at his dad and the kids their whole life so guess how well that turned out for him? Assuming every abused male was raised without a strong father figure around is just that - an assumption. So the real question we should be asking is why are these men, ones with strong dads around, putting up with this kind of treatment? It's easy to see why men who were raised to be codependent continue to go down that road but why do other men accept so little for themselves? And how about the men that aren't abused but are very much neglected? How many times do we see men who would walk over hot coals for a kiss from their wife while she snubs him for wanting so much as to hold hands for years? I wouldn't put up with that situation for a single month without consulting a either a counselor or a divorce lawyer. So why do they accept so little for themselves?

I don't think this problem is as simple as blaming it on one specific influence whether that be helicopter/emotionally incestuous moms, deadbeat dads, or (particularly 2nd wave) feminism. I think all of those things play some sort of role that is unique to every abused man but don't explain why seemingly healthy men with solid childhoods can fall victim to an abusive or neglectful partner. I think there might be answers deeper in the message society tells men about their worth that can affect this too and specifically what it means for their role as a spouse - something that makes them fundamentally believe that they don't deserve better than what they get or that their marriage is worth sacrificing themselves for. I think that there is also this myth that women aren't really capable of hurting a man or that men should be able to shake off emotional abuse if they really want to. Combine that with the fact that there are very few resources aimed at helping men out of toxic home lives and that many people including police officers just don't think that their spouses could really be a threat, being in that situation must be extremely isolating.

IME with online support groups, I have found that men in toxic marriages are the most likely to cover for their abusive spouse. In fact it got so predictable with some members that if they stopped posting for a few days, I knew that their wives had turned their home into a war zone and that I'd read the highlights of it whenever it ended. I wonder if this is the side effect of putting these harpies on a pedestal and protecting their reputation or embarrassment or wanting to handle the situation without outside help. Probably all three. It's not like there weren't some similarities with the women victims but I found that men tended to be far more likely to hold on to the notion that deep down, their wife was actually perfect and amazing any time she wasn't being abusive instead of accepting that it was all a show to keep him under her control. I have to wonder if since most public awareness of abuse has been hyper focused on abused women, maybe it's easier for women to come to grips with the idea that their husband is actually a colossal douche masquerading in tinfoil at the end of the day while abused men fall into the pitfalls of thinking the "perfect wife" is the real person they married and the "harpy" is just something they have to put up with to keep their "perfect wife" instead of realizing that they're married to a harpy with a human mask.


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## Keke24

The abuse of men is definitely far more widespread than anyone is willing to admit. It's not given the spotlight it needs or deserves. I can think of 3 friends of mine over the years who have been in an a physically abusive relationship with a woman and many more who have been in emotionally abusive relationships. Not a single one of them was raised by a single mom with an absent father. In fact, a guy I know who just recently moved in with his girlfriend who punches him in the face when she is angry was raised in a two parent home with a dad who was *a lifelong farmer - the strong and silent type. But guess what? His mom was a harpy who screamed at his dad and the kids their whole life so guess how well that turned out for him? *Assuming every abused male was raised without a strong father figure around is just that - an assumption.

This seems contradictory to your point. A strong father figure would not support this behavior from his wife. This seems to indicate that your friend's relationship is replicating his parents'. His mother was verbally abusive, he ended up with a woman who's emotionally abusive.


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## nekonamida

That is a good point. I'm demonstrating that his father was exactly the kind of man you would expect to be strong and did teach his son how to work a farm, survive in the wilderness, and the importance of hard work but did cater to his wife far too much. So does his relationship with his wife make him a fundamentally weak man despite him having all the other typically masculine features?


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## Keke24

nekonamida said:


> That is a good point. I'm demonstrating that his father was exactly the kind of man you would expect to be strong and did teach his son how to work a farm, survive in the wilderness, and the importance of hard work but did cater to his wife far too much. So does his relationship with his wife make him a fundamentally weak man despite him having all the other typically masculine features?


That's all well and good to have strong survival skills, certainly admirable. But did his father teach him to respect himself, to establish boundaries. Did he demonstrate good communication and healthy husband-wife interaction? I think taking a passive stance towards excessive yelling directed at you and your children, isn't setting a great example. I would also think that his mom's yelling was a symptom of a bigger problem. It would not be surprising if his mom was controlling with her husband and children.


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## nekonamida

Keke24 said:


> That's all well and good to have strong survival skills, certainly admirable. But did his father teach him to respect himself, to establish boundaries. Did he demonstrate good communication and healthy husband-wife interaction? I think taking a passive stance towards excessive yelling directed at you and your children, isn't setting a great example. I would also think that his mom's yelling was a symptom of a bigger problem. It would not be surprising if his mom was controlling with her husband and children.


Obviously no but the man was strong and resourceful in many other aspects of his life and he definitely did not cater to his kids like that or other people. He just did when it came to his wife. So does the situation with his wife override the other parts of his life in which he has strength? Does lacking strength in one area of a man's life make him fundamentally weak? For instance, what if a man can set appropriate boundaries and respect himself at home but can't in the work place or vice versa? What if a man is great at respecting himself and boundaries but whines as soon as he has to do any kind of real work to get what he wants in life? I'm genuinely curious about where everyone draws the line between showing strength in various forms versus one's interpersonal life and whether men have to have it all to be strong or whether it's okay to be weak in some areas and strong in others.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I am not posting this to pander to females, feminists etc....But...given the choice. I would never be female. If a man's life isn't what he wants it to be thats on him. If you're a man then be a man. Change your situation. If your wife cheats then leave. For all the talk of men being abused, I feel like a lot of us have forgotten how to be men.


----------



## Jessica38

I just got back from an event with dozens of families, and I can say with 100% certainty that many women are mistreated by their husbands as well. I heard stories about husbands who won't stop their excessive drinking (Why do you always want to stop my fun?), won't help out with the kids, and another who gets so angry that his young son frequently begs him to "leave mom alone!"

So I get that there are husbands whose wives are awful, but I also know that there are moms facing the VERY scary reality of how to care for themselves and their little ones while their husbands refuse to grow up.


----------



## Haiku

EleGirl said:


> Until very recently (10 years ago or so) women were taught that it was natural for men to cheat. And women were expected to look the other way.


I've lived in Iowa, New Jersey, California, and Minnesota. Not even close to my experience in my entire life not to mention _the last ten years_. I'm kinda baffled at this statement actually.


----------



## sokillme

nekonamida said:


> That is a good point. I'm demonstrating that his father was exactly the kind of man you would expect to be strong and did teach his son how to work a farm, survive in the wilderness, and the importance of hard work but did cater to his wife far too much. So does his relationship with his wife make him a fundamentally weak man despite him having all the other typically masculine features?


Being able to work on a farm doesn't make a man emotional strong. That is the kind of strength that is needed to combat emotional abuse. It also doesn't make him assertive and a leader in the family.


----------



## sokillme

ReformedHubby said:


> I am not posting this to pander to females, feminists etc....But...given the choice. I would never be female. If a man's life isn't what he wants it to be thats on him. If you're a man then be a man. Change your situation. If your wife cheats then leave. For all the talk of men being abused, I feel like a lot of us have forgotten how to be men.


It is surely a man problem no doubt. Many of us don't lead anymore. Many of us are pushovers. Many of us buy the whole toxic masculinity garbage. I really am not a big fan of those men, they have made my life harder.


----------



## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> I just got back from an event with dozens of families, and I can say with 100% certainty that many women are mistreated by their husbands as well. I heard stories about husbands who won't stop their excessive drinking (Why do you always want to stop my fun?), won't help out with the kids, and another who gets so angry that his young son frequently begs him to "leave mom alone!"
> 
> So I get that there are husbands whose wives are awful, but I also know that there are moms facing the VERY scary reality of how to care for themselves and their little ones while their husbands refuse to grow up.


Again no one doubts that. That is just not the purpose of this thread. But my post above addresses that. Can't lead if you are doing the things you posted about.


----------



## EleGirl

I agree that there are some women who do not treat their husbands well. I have no idea what percentage of the entire married female population that is. But I don't think it's a huge percentage. 

The people who post on TAM are a self-selected group. Men come here a particular type of support from the other men on TAM. I think that resonated with them and so they stay here.

TAM is not representative of society as a whole because very few people ever even find TAM.

It's easy to let all these stories on TAM make us think that this is what our entire population is like. It's not. It's important to keep that in perspective.

With that said, it is sad to see so many men with these sort of issues. Just as it's sad to see so many women coming here with issues. There are just some rotten people on the face of this earth.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> I agree that there are some women who do not treat their husbands well. I have no idea what percentage of the entire married female population that is. But I don't think it's a huge percentage.
> 
> The people who post on TAM are a self-selected group. Men come here a particular type of support from the other men on TAM. I think that resonated with them and so they stay here.
> 
> TAM is not representative of society as a whole because very few people ever even find TAM.
> 
> It's easy to let all these stories on TAM make us think that this is what our entire population is like. It's not. It's important to keep that in perspective.
> 
> With that said, it is sad to see so many men with these sort of issues. Just as it's sad to see so many women coming here with issues. There are just some rotten people on the face of this earth.


This is true. There are still too many posts like that though.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> This is true. There are still too many posts like that though.


Of course there are too many posts/thread written by people who are mistreated and/or abused. Go anyplace on the internet or in this world where people go to help, and there are too many people there who are mistreated and/or abused.

It's a sad part of human nature that there is some percentage of people who are just mean, awful people.


----------



## Satya

Since this is about men, I just want to say that I agree. I personally dislike seeing men being taken advantage of. Someone else made a point I agreed with. Men are lacking good role models. I've always had good relationships with men in general, because I never expected special treatment. I always needed accomplishments to be based on my own merit. My father was an excellent role model and I believe it's because of him that I have the attitude about people that I did whilst growing up and still do today.

I try not to get too bogged down in the trends of the board. Sometimes it's necessary to take a break.


----------



## Ynot

Good discussion. I agree with many of the posts here. I think there are a number of issues at play. First off TAM is a self selected group, so it stands to reason that you would find more tales about a broken or ailing marriage due to abuse. Second off, I think more men would tend to come here, because in real life, men do NOT have anywhere near the support network that women have. There really is not a male equivalent to the "you go girl!" mentality that women coalesce towards. 
Which brings me to my last point - men don't chose to be abused. I don't think anyone does. However, we are taught to accept it as normal. Even in homes with strong male leads, society at large is constantly reinforcing negative images of what males are. Typical TV sit com usually revolves around a strong woman having to deal with hapless, immature men. No fault divorce was instituted allowing women more freedom, but support and custody laws have taken years to catch up, if they have at all. 
People can say, we men forget to that we are men, but if you never learned it, how can you forget it?


----------



## wmn1

becareful2 said:


> I think factors like liberalism, feminism, and low self-esteem have emasculated so many of these men who show up on forums like this. The "controlling card" gets played against them and they have no idea how to react to it. When their cheating wives accuse them of being controlling, they seem to have no idea on how to shut that down. They feel bad for snooping on their wives and express how awful it makes them feel. They grovel and chase after their cheating wives to R at any cost. For every 10 betrayed husbands, it seems only about 3 have the courage to kick their cheating wives to the curb. The rest make excuses to justify their R: staying for the kids, too many years have been invested in their marriage, they made a vow to stay through thick and thin, etc. These reasons seem noble on the surface but if we dig a little deeper, we often find that these husbands are codependent and scared of what is out there. The worst has to be the husbands who allow themselves to be cuckolded while their wives flaunt their affairs in their face.


so true Becareful. These are the same guys who will road rage you and act all tough but fold when it comes to dealing with a cheating wife. Codependency runs rampant. I agree that it is liberalism, feminism and low self-esteem. So sad


----------



## 269370

Interesting topic.
Is there some data on it? So far from what I have been reading, the gap seems really close.

Physical violence is one thing though but how does one quantify emotional abuse objectively...Seems impossible.

"From this information researchers found that of the 18,761 relationships, 76 percent were non-violent and 24 percent were violent. Of the 24 percent that were violent, half had been reciprocal and half had not — reciprocal meaning there was violence inflicted by both partners. Although more men than women (53 percent versus 49 percent) had experienced nonreciprocal violent relationships, more women than men (52 percent versus 47 percent) had taken part in ones involving reciprocal violence.

This statistic was undoubtedly the most striking: in committing acts of domestic violence, more women than men (25 percent versus 11 percent) were responsible. In fact, in the 71 percent of nonreciprocal partner violence instances, the instigator was the woman. This flies in the face of the long-held belief that female aggression in a relationship is most often predicated on self-defense."

http://www.mintpressnews.com/woman-aggressor-unspoken-truth-domestic-violence/196746/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Until very recently *(10 years ago or so)* women were taught that it was natural for men to cheat. And women were expected to look the other way. One of the major reasons for this is that back then, most women could not make enough money to support herself and her children. So if her husband cheated, she was trapped. Her only real choice was put up and shut up.


Is it possible you omitted a zero or two? This doesn't sound right to me. Is there any data in support of this?


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## 269370

I could find this:

• The 1857 Matrimonial Causes Act allowed ordinary people to divorce. Before then, divorce was largely open only to men, and had to be granted by an Act of Parliament, which was hugely expensive, and therefore was also open only to the rich. (Long before then, of course, Henry VIII was granted a divorce by the Archbishop of Canterbury, and church courts retained the power to dissolve marriages.)

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/19/divorce-law-history


So about 120 years ago. That's not to say it was easy!


----------



## ConanHub

Kivlor said:


> My take on the root causes of the spread of this weakness, where men put up with such things is a combination of single motherhood, and the naturally unbalanced character that will inspire in boys, mixed with all of the "toxic masculinity" commentary constantly acting as if by being male you are defective.
> 
> We can trace a lot of this back to feminism and no-fault divorce, which led to the ridiculous mistreatment of men by the Justice System, rewarded single motherhood, rewarded women who take advantage of their husbands, and forced men out of their sons lives. We've seen 3+ generations of this, so now a large number of men never had any men to lead them out of their childhood and into manhood.
> 
> These boys were raised by women who were sucking the life out of them as children, in a sick, vampiric fashion. It is only natural that they would marry similar women to their own mothers. And because their mothers did this to them, they don't know how to stop it, nor do they even believe they should. It's normal to them.
> 
> No matter what women want to say with their "you go girl!" "we're just as great as men at everything!" slogans, women will never be capable of raising men. That requires men. It would be like asking a fish to teach a squirrel to climb trees.


I'll agree with you here. That said, My grandmother, at the time in her life that I came along, knew how to inspire boys to become men.

Her fearless approach to any issue and intelligent handling shaped me well. She was not without male influence though. She was married to the strongest man I have ever known.

She couldn't have been the woman she was without great male influence and interaction but she could, and did, know how to raise men.

As far as your statements on society goes today, I agree.

My grandparents lived through the depression and had more steel in their gazes than most in their spines.


----------



## SunCMars

aine said:


> It is also sad how many women on here, dedicate their whole lives to their husbands, taking care of a family and the home and then they are unceremoniously dumped for a piece of crumpet with no loyalty, no care, empathy consideration. Unfortunately, this is life. In life there are many many people of low character.


Thank you :crying:

Funny thing about flip-flops.....both sexes can wear the same pair "in a pinch". 

A pinch on the cheek.

The face cheek, the butt cheek....the cheek that these cheating SOB's display.

Pain is pain.... Not unique to either gender.

Just Sayin'


----------



## SunCMars

EleGirl said:


> Until very recently (10 years ago or so) women were taught that it was natural for men to cheat. And women were expected to look the other way. One of the major reasons for this is that back then, most women could not make enough money to support herself and her children. So if her husband cheated, she was trapped. *Her only real choice was put up and shut up*.


Yes, Dear.

But................................

You left out one adverb:

Her only choice was to put up, *put out* and shut up.


----------



## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> Again no one doubts that. That is just not the purpose of this thread. But my post above addresses that. Can't lead if you are doing the things you posted about.


I have to disagree- the two are not mutually exclusive because a spouse who is mistreated in their marriage is going to react in dysfunctional ways. The issue goes far beyond an inability to lead your family if you're doing the above behaviors. Women who are repeatedly being disrespected in their marriage WILL become angry, dysfunctional, (and some may even become unfaithful)....in other words, abusive. 

I read that when a spouse is repeatedly mistreated, their instincts will do anything to get them out of there and away from the abuse, including making themselves look as unattractive as possible to their spouse to push them away. So the yelling, screaming, withdrawal, refusal to have sex, etc. in many insteances is directly relevant to the dysfunction in the marriage.


----------



## Thor

jorgegene said:


> One of the saddest stories I ever read was on another forum years ago.
> 
> it was an ongoing story of an older guy, very successful engineer in his profession.
> but, early on in his marriage, he caught his wife in a car with another man doing
> bad things. His wife, rather than being embarrassed and sorrowful instead turned on him.
> 
> she turned cold as ice, spiteful and hateful. She never hinted at divorce, but never, ever
> again let him touch her, not even a kiss or hug after 30 years.
> 
> to make this even sadder, this guy would groan every chance he got about how he
> would love to have just one hug from his wife. The forum population would bash him
> and exhort him to leave her, but he just wouldnt.


30+ years ago it is possible the financials of divorce would have left him literally living in a trailer while his ex-w got the house and alimony. My ex-FIL was in this position, and his wife regularly reminded him of it. She would threaten to take the kids and all his money if he didn't cower to her. She was a SAHM, he was a successful engineer back in the 60's through the 80's. In those days an engineer's pay would nicely support a family.

In those days, he would be lucky to have enough left over after divorce to rent a small apartment and eat.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Interesting topic.
> Is there some data on it? So far from what I have been reading, the gap seems really close.
> 
> Physical violence is one thing though but how does one quantify emotional abuse objectively...Seems impossible.
> 
> "From this information researchers found that of the 18,761 relationships, 76 percent were non-violent and 24 percent were violent. Of the 24 percent that were violent, half had been reciprocal and half had not — reciprocal meaning there was violence inflicted by both partners. Although more men than women (53 percent versus 49 percent) had experienced nonreciprocal violent relationships, more women than men (52 percent versus 47 percent) had taken part in ones involving reciprocal violence.
> 
> This statistic was undoubtedly the most striking: in committing acts of domestic violence, more women than men (25 percent versus 11 percent) were responsible. In fact, in the 71 percent of nonreciprocal partner violence instances, the instigator was the woman. This flies in the face of the long-held belief that female aggression in a relationship is most often predicated on self-defense."
> 
> Woman As Aggressor: The Unspoken Truth Of Domestic Violence


I know that this thread is not really about physical abuse. It’s more about infidelity and emotional abuse. But you brought this up so I’ll dress it briefly.

My impression is that for the last few decades a lot of effort has gone into addressing domestic violence against women. There was a need for that because the incidence of abuse was very high and society, to include the police, accepted it as normal.

The problem is that some women have twisted this to mean that women can hit and be abusive of men, while men cannot do that. How often do we hear things like “real men do not hit women” vs “real women do not hit men”? 

As a society, now that the level of abuse of women is way down compared to in the past, we need to push the idea that abuse of any form is not ok regardless of gender.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Is it possible you omitted a zero or two? This doesn't sound right to me. Is there any data in support of this?


Nope, maybe push it back 20 or 30 years, but not even 100 years.

Several of my uncles cheated, I remember discussions about this at my grandmother’s kitchen table. The message to me as a young girl was that men cheat and women turn a blind eye. The same thing with discussions with female friends and their mothers. Even magazines for women talked about this. After all, it was not like the women could actually divorce a man regardless of the laws because she could not earn enough to support herself anyway.

It was not until the 1970’s when women started to be able to have careers that earned well that women started to think twice about staying with cheating husbands. I lived through this. I’ve seen the attitudes of women change from the time when I was a young girl to today. 

When I found out that my husband was cheating in the early 1990’s, I was advised by a lot of people like my lawyers, accounts, and friends that I should look the other way because all men cheat. LOL


----------



## NextTimeAround

I thought it was later than the '70s that divorce laws finally recognised the input of a SAHPartner and divided assets in recognition of it.

I remember in the 80s trying to let a guy down easily after 6 months of dating, way too controlling and just not someone I saw a future with. 

I remember in a phone conversation refusing to make a date with him when, I guess, he thought he was deploying his most toxic verbal weapon and that was "I could do better......" 

The was the moment I grew a spine. Well, why should I feel sorry for him if he had so many other options out there, but still he would not leave me alone.

I had thought about this over the decades trying to understand what would make him think that was a good idea. I came to the conclusion that particularly as he was a poor boy -- a teenager in the '70s --now making good that he probably saw in his neighborhood and among his family that as soon as a man said the above, a woman would straighten up and behave. 

Otherwise, the end of their relationship would mean a huge financial and social loss to the woman. 

This guy may have been good at IT, but not in recognizing real social change. Or that I as middle class and never married (thankfully not to him), I had nothing to lose.


----------



## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> I have to disagree- the two are not mutually exclusive because a spouse who is mistreated in their marriage is going to react in dysfunctional ways. The issue goes far beyond an inability to lead your family if you're doing the above behaviors. Women who are repeatedly being disrespected in their marriage WILL become angry, dysfunctional, (and some may even become unfaithful)....in other words, abusive.
> 
> I read that when a spouse is repeatedly mistreated, their instincts will do anything to get them out of there and away from the abuse, including making themselves look as unattractive as possible to their spouse to push them away. So the yelling, screaming, withdrawal, refusal to have sex, etc. in many insteances is directly relevant to the dysfunction in the marriage.


I curious when did I say it wasn't. 



> husbands who won't stop their excessive drinking (Why do you always want to stop my fun?), won't help out with the kids, and another who gets so angry that his young son frequently begs him to "leave mom alone!"


That's not leading the family. 

Still none of that justifies cheating. Leaving it the moral solution. Even if you want to say cheating is justified, it's ineffective, it doesn't solve the problems it just makes it worse.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Nope, maybe push it back 20 or 30 years, but not even 100 years.
> 
> Several of my uncles cheated, I remember discussions about this at my grandmother’s kitchen table. The message to me as a young girl was that men cheat and women turn a blind eye. The same thing with discussions with female friends and their mothers. Even magazines for women talked about this. After all, it was not like the women could actually divorce a man regardless of the laws because she could not earn enough to support herself anyway.
> 
> It was not until the 1970’s when women started to be able to have careers that earned well that women started to think twice about staying with cheating husbands. I lived through this. I’ve seen the attitudes of women change from the time when I was a young girl to today.
> 
> When I found out that my husband was cheating in the early 1990’s, I was advised by a lot of people like my lawyers, accounts, and friends that I should look the other way because all men cheat. LOL


It's swung to far now. I have seen lots of articles now where women cheating is see and liberating and life affirming. Celebrated books about it. I really don't see a lot of celebration when men cheat. Maybe they are out there. 

This is a prime example
Notice how these are are sites targeted to the female demographic
Also they are presented with no judgements basically normalizing it

Don't get me started on the books like this.


----------



## Haiku

sokillme said:


> No examples. It's just post after post of husbands, and boyfriends whose wives and mates have affairs. Always the same story, social media, old friend, friend from work. How sorry the wives now are. And them men revert to their natural desire to protect their wives and continue to get that used against them. It's very sad.
> 
> There always seems to be very little consequence compared to the pain these men feel.


I accept it's my comprehension problem but I'm having trouble understanding the issue. 

I tend to think people try to rehabilitate their marriage after discovering infidelity because of their emotional and physical investments. I think the betrayed spouse feels fear over the realization of losing the years spent together and their future and security vanishing. They suffer with shame over a failed marriage and damaged self-esteem having been cheated on. Children, if involved, magnifies the panic. Typically it's human nature to resist change and they want the nightmare to disappear. 

It seems to me to be a common reaction people have to a complicated significant life event. Gender or instinct doesn't seem to have much to do with it.


----------



## sokillme

Haiku said:


> I accept it's my comprehension problem but I'm having trouble understanding the issue.
> 
> I tend to think people try to rehabilitate their marriage after discovering infidelity because of their emotional and physical investments. I think the betrayed spouse feels fear over the realization of losing the years spent together and their future and security vanishing. They suffer with shame over a failed marriage and damaged self-esteem having been cheated on. Children, if involved, magnifies the panic. Typically it's human nature to resist change and they want the nightmare to disappear.
> 
> It seems to me to be a common reaction people have to a complicated significant life event. Gender or instinct doesn't seem to have much to do with it.


Where I see the protective nature is used against the men is when you see husband's talk about their wives like they were tricked by players. Many times the cheating wife is almost seen as childlike, and many WW play into that. Or when the wife breaks down in tears and it is the husbands natural response to hold her to comfort her. She is very sad, and the natural assumption from the husband is she is sad what she did to the family, when really she is sad that she can't have her affair partner anymore. Again this is using his nature against him. He wants to protect her, even from consequences the women know this and exploit it. 

I believe your paragraph above is true though. I also think there is a innate fear of change, but worse it the idea that this is the best I can do.


----------



## wmn1

inmyprime said:


> Interesting topic.
> Is there some data on it? So far from what I have been reading, the gap seems really close.
> 
> Physical violence is one thing though but how does one quantify emotional abuse objectively...Seems impossible.
> 
> "From this information researchers found that of the 18,761 relationships, 76 percent were non-violent and 24 percent were violent. Of the 24 percent that were violent, half had been reciprocal and half had not — reciprocal meaning there was violence inflicted by both partners. Although more men than women (53 percent versus 49 percent) had experienced nonreciprocal violent relationships, more women than men (52 percent versus 47 percent) had taken part in ones involving reciprocal violence.
> 
> This statistic was undoubtedly the most striking: in committing acts of domestic violence, more women than men (25 percent versus 11 percent) were responsible. In fact, in the 71 percent of nonreciprocal partner violence instances, the instigator was the woman. This flies in the face of the long-held belief that female aggression in a relationship is most often predicated on self-defense."
> 
> Woman As Aggressor: The Unspoken Truth Of Domestic Violence
> 
> 
> very well put. In my experiences as a Cop and in my years dealing with the DV division, I can attest to the fact that women commit amuch higher percentage of the DV actions than the so called experts claim they do
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chillymorn69

ReformedHubby said:


> I am not posting this to pander to females, feminists etc....But...given the choice. I would never be female. If a man's life isn't what he wants it to be thats on him. If you're a man then be a man. Change your situation. If your wife cheats then leave. For all the talk of men being abused, I feel like a lot of us have forgotten how to be men.


Its not politically correct to be a man anymore!


----------



## chillymorn69

EleGirl said:


> I agree that there are some women who do not treat their husbands well. I have no idea what percentage of the entire married female population that is. But I don't think it's a huge percentage.
> 
> The people who post on TAM are a self-selected group. Men come here a particular type of support from the other men on TAM. I think that resonated with them and so they stay here.
> 
> TAM is not representative of society as a whole because very few people ever even find TAM.
> 
> It's easy to let all these stories on TAM make us think that this is what our entire population is like. It's not. It's important to keep that in perspective.
> 
> With that said, it is sad to see so many men with these sort of issues. Just as it's sad to see so many women coming here with issues. There are just some rotten people on the face of this earth.


Not so sure it might be very represenitive of the population. You really can't say for certain either way.

It seems pretty reresenentive of the married folks i personally know . But its a small sample size.


----------



## Good Guy

I've lived 46 years and mixed with men of different nationalities and have only ever heard one man bragging about cheating on his wife. I've never ever heard a man say it. Also have never ever heard a man encourage another man to cheat, in fact when one of my male friends cheated and her wife dumped him, our reaction was "what did you expect" not "she had it coming" even though none of us ever liked her.

On the other hand, my wife's best friend encouraged her to cheat "get it out of your system". My male friends discourage each other from cheating. So from personal experience women are more ok with cheating than men are.

The comments advice about the uncles cheating, it is WOMEN saying you have to put up with it, not men.

Also women have this funny thing that if they do cheat they did nothing wrong and need to blame someone else whereas men just say "yeah I cheated, you got me". Again this is my experience.


----------



## TX-SC

Good Guy said:


> I've lived 46 years and mixed with men of different nationalities and have only ever heard one man bragging about cheating on his wife. I've never ever heard a man say it. Also have never ever heard a man encourage another man to cheat, in fact when one of my male friends cheated and her wife dumped him, our reaction was "what did you expect" not "she had it coming" even though none of us ever liked her.
> 
> On the other hand, my wife's best friend encouraged her to cheat "get it out of your system". My male friends discourage each other from cheating. So from personal experience women are more ok with cheating than men are.
> 
> The comments advice about the uncles cheating, it is WOMEN saying you have to put up with it, not men.
> 
> Also women have this funny thing that if they do cheat they did nothing wrong and need to blame someone else whereas men just say "yeah I cheated, you got me". Again this is my experience.


As a father of daughters, I think that the differences are obvious from an early age. My brother had two boys and I had two girls. My girls are coy, manipulative, and will twist or hide facts. My nephews would just own up to it and move on. My daughter's are wonderful girls, but I think girls are just wired differently. 

I agree that I have never had a male friend brag about cheating and no males that I know would encourage that behavior. To be honest, I don't know any women that would encourage it either though.


----------



## Personal

TX-SC said:


> My girls are coy, manipulative, and will twist or hide facts.


Men can do the same.

My wife and I were at a formal Dining In Night at my former Army Intelligence Company over a decade ago. When our then Psych Officer who was sitting opposite my wife told her something along the lines of "Your husband is a nasty piece of work. Now please don't take this the wrong way, but your husband has an exceptional talent in what we do and we're very lucky to have him." At the time I was in PSYOPS and as required had applied my talents on peace keeping, war and other things, that said I can't say I'm particularly coy.

In my experience of personally knowing some politicians, working in the media and being a former intelligence professional there are lots of men who can be like your daughters.


----------



## TX-SC

Personal said:


> Men can do the same.
> 
> My wife and I were at a formal Dining In Night at my former Army Intelligence Company over a decade ago. When our then Psych Officer who was sitting opposite my wife told her something along the lines of "Your husband is a nasty piece of work. Now please don't take this the wrong way, but your husband has an exceptional talent in what we do and we're very lucky to have him." At the time I was in PSYOPS and as required had applied my talents on peace keeping, war and other things, that said I can't say I'm particularly coy.
> 
> In my experience of personally knowing some politicians, working in the media and being a former intelligence professional there are lots of men who can be like your daughters.


Well certainly men can be manipulative! What I'm talking about though is something inherent from an early age. Many adults learn to manipulate, but it seems like many girls are born with a predisposition to be so. Young boys are "what you see is what you get" where girls aren't always the easiest to read.


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## Personal

@TX-SC I see what you're saying and can relate that our son is very straightforward while our daughter is anything but and has always guarded her emotions, been manipulative, secretive and will sometimes readily lie. Yet funnily enough my wife and I both concur that our son is more like my wife, while our daughter is more like me.


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## knobcreek

It's depressing for sure, then add the abundance of white knights who will do anything in their power to defend women even when they're straight up wrong.

Men are not valued by women at all today, we're a commodity. In the past our labor was used to fight wars, build society (it's funny how women didn't demand equal rights until men conquered the jungle and life became much easier, before then they were fine to sit back and watch men do all the heavy lifting), but women gave men for the most part assurance that their children were his, and loyalty and fidelity. Now, it seems no woman is capable of offering support and fidelity to a man. They use from him what they can for a time, when he's no longer capable of offering more and she can swing higher up the tree (before she hits the wall and her looks fade completely) she cheats or divorces him, takes his assets, and leaves him broke, alone and destitute.

Now, through their teens, 20's, and now even 30's 80% of the women basically cycle through ****ing 20% of the men. Once they want kids and realize they don't have the goods to land one of these men they "settle" for a guy lower on the ladder, maybe she's a 5 and he's a 6. But in her eyes he'll never measure up because she's been having casual sex with better looking guys for nearly 2 decades (not relationships). Inevitably she gets hit on by some dude "(he's better looking just like the guys I used to date") and cheats, marriage breaks up, she then realizes her husband has been emotionally abusive, and she tells everyone, her friends all marvel at her strength of will when they meet for mimosas, wash- rinse- repeat.


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## jld

Personal said:


> @TX-SC I see what you're saying and can relate that our son is very straightforward while our daughter is anything but and has always guarded her emotions, been manipulative, secretive and will sometimes readily lie. Yet funnily enough my wife and I both concur that our son is more like my wife, while our daughter is more like me.


Personal, do you also have a child from your first marriage? If so, is he or she more like you or more like your first wife?


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## Personal

@jld I don't think her personality is like either of us, that said she looks more me than my ex-wife.


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## sokillme

knobcreek said:


> It's depressing for sure, then add the abundance of white knights who will do anything in their power to defend women even when they're straight up wrong.
> 
> Men are not valued by women at all today, we're a commodity. In the past our labor was used to fight wars, build society (it's funny how women didn't demand equal rights until men conquered the jungle and life became much easier, before then they were fine to sit back and watch men do all the heavy lifting), but women gave men for the most part assurance that their children were his, and loyalty and fidelity. Now, it seems no woman is capable of offering support and fidelity to a man. They use from him what they can for a time, when he's no longer capable of offering more and she can swing higher up the tree (before she hits the wall and her looks fade completely) she cheats or divorces him, takes his assets, and leaves him broke, alone and destitute.
> 
> Now, through their teens, 20's, and now even 30's 80% of the women basically cycle through ****ing 20% of the men. Once they want kids and realize they don't have the goods to land one of these men they "settle" for a guy lower on the ladder, maybe she's a 5 and he's a 6. But in her eyes he'll never measure up because she's been having casual sex with better looking guys for nearly 2 decades (not relationships). Inevitably she gets hit on by some dude "(he's better looking just like the guys I used to date") and cheats, marriage breaks up, she then realizes her husband has been emotionally abusive, and she tells everyone, her friends all marvel at her strength of will when they meet for mimosas, wash- rinse- repeat.


That's a pretty stark assessment even for me. I don't really agree with this in the sense that there are just as many good women out there as men. Unfortunately it means there are just as many bad as well. The difference may be that a bad women who is attractive can be passive and still be "propositioned" almost every day.


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## knobcreek

sokillme said:


> That's a pretty stark assessment even for me. I don't really agree with this in the sense that there are just as many good women out there as men. Unfortunately it means there are just as many bad as well. The difference may be that a bad women who is attractive can be passive and still be "propositioned" almost every day.


Honestly I post here only when I'm triggering and 95% of what I wrote is just emotional vomiting, take it with a grain of salt, this is my self-therapy to get through the next 3 weeks of my standard breakdown I go through every 5-6 months or so...


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## PreRaph

I can't say for certain, but my feeling is that women are no longer as favored by the courts as they used to be, and that many more are calling BS on those women who want to claim they were victimized by the patriarchy to try and then use that against men.

This is not to underestimate the extent of abuse that is out there. It's pretty significant, however there is more awareness that it is happening on both sides of the aisle now rather than automatically assuming men to be the aggressors and perpetrators.


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## Marc878

You are abused only if you let it happen.

It's simple, refuse to be a chump. 

If you're a man you don't have a vagina so quit wasting time looking for it.


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## EleGirl

knobcreek said:


> It's depressing for sure, then add the abundance of white knights who will do anything in their power to defend women even when they're straight up wrong.
> 
> Men are not valued by women at all today, we're a commodity. In the past our labor was used to fight wars, build society (it's funny how women didn't demand equal rights until men conquered the jungle and life became much easier, before then they were fine to sit back and watch men do all the heavy lifting), but women gave men for the most part assurance that their children were his, and loyalty and fidelity. Now, it seems no woman is capable of offering support and fidelity to a man. They use from him what they can for a time, when he's no longer capable of offering more and she can swing higher up the tree (before she hits the wall and her looks fade completely) she cheats or divorces him, takes his assets, and leaves him broke, alone and destitute.
> 
> Now, through their teens, 20's, and now even 30's 80% of the women basically cycle through ****ing 20% of the men. Once they want kids and realize they don't have the goods to land one of these men they "settle" for a guy lower on the ladder, maybe she's a 5 and he's a 6. But in her eyes he'll never measure up because she's been having casual sex with better looking guys for nearly 2 decades (not relationships). Inevitably she gets hit on by some dude "(he's better looking just like the guys I used to date") and cheats, marriage breaks up, she then realizes her husband has been emotionally abusive, and she tells everyone, her friends all marvel at her strength of will when they meet for mimosas, wash- rinse- repeat.


Gross generalizations accusing all or most of one group of people, based on race, gender, etc. are not tolerated on TAM. I realize that you say you having your bi-annual nervous breakdown, but if you need to take it out on all women, do it elsewhere.

You would benefit from reading the forum rules.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html

{speaking as a moderator}


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## arbitrator

sokillme said:


> No examples. It's just post after post of husbands, and boyfriends whose wives and mates have affairs. Always the same story, social media, old friend, friend from work. *How sorry the wives now are.* And them men revert to their natural desire to protect their wives and continue to get that used against them. It's very sad.
> 
> There always seems to be very little consequence compared to the pain these men feel.


*All except for my RSXW!

She willingly and covertly cheated and has never even begun to have offered up any kind of acknowledgement of her cheating much less any form of remorse!*


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## vauxhall101

This is something I have been thinking about based on my own experiences. I have known far more abusive women than abusive men, BUT, this is probably because most of my friends are male, and obviously, I'm not going to be friends with that type of guy. 

I also take the point earlier that any time this is brought up, there is the obvious point, which is that men do far worse things to women, than women do to men. Yes. Agreed. But two wrongs don't make a right. _I_ have never abused a woman, or sold a woman into slavery, or groped anybody, or any of those things. So I am only speaking for myself. 

My wife, if you met her, is sweet as pie. To me, the vast majority of the time, she was sweet as pie. But as soon as something, anything, no matter how small or insignificant, sets her off, she can almost instantaneously become physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive. Frankly, if our behaviour were reversed, I would probably be in jail. But, because she is female, her attitude is that I'm a pig by default, so her treatment of me is acceptable, even warranted. She should punch me because before we met I fancied a girl who wasn't her, it's only right. 

My mother was an alcoholic, my parents were divorced when I was young, and she was abusive too. She would rail against my father, call him names, punch him, but when pushed to come up with something that he had actually done to her, the best I can remember her coming up with was something about him being controlling (yeah, controlling by being your only source of money for booze, what a d). 

I'll give an even more extreme example. I have a friend, known him for years, not an angel for sure, but a really good guy. I stayed with him a few years ago, and his then girlfriend was an absolute terror. On one occasion, she told him she was pregnant - they had a brief celebration together, then she said she was going to get some of her clothing, and come straight back, because my friend had to be up for work at 5am. At 1am, she finally returns, drunk as a lord, having been god knows where. My friend is not happy - you're carrying our baby etc. I was in the middle of all this, as I was staying there. So she punches and kicks, screams, etc. Then she picks up a glass ashtray, and throws it at my friend's face. If he hadn't put his arm up and blocked it, it might have killed him. 

Then the next day, my friend fished the pregnancy test out of the trash, and it was negative. She wasn't pregnant. When he confronted her (again, while I was present, for some reason they were conducting all their business in front of me), it was completely obvious that she knew she had been 'caught out', rather than that she had made a genuine mistake. And when they eventually broke up, was there any comeback on her? Nope, but she continually messaged his friends and family (me included) saying that he was gay, a drug addict, etc, and apparently she asked a friend if the friend thought she should make up a false rape charge against him, as 'revenge' for dumping her. She also spent a lot of time coming on to me, but that's a different story. 

Now, that is an extreme example, of course, but I found it deeply disturbing, and still do. And I think part of the problem is female expectations of their partner. 

Please don't misunderstand, I am certainly not advocating a return to the 1950s, of housewives and patriarchy and so forth. I have a lot of sympathy for feminism, and I'm all in favour of equality of pay, (many) more women in position's of power, rock on. I mentioned in another thread, I think this affects men too, just in a different way - the ubiquity of internet porn has given a lot of young guys a false expectation of what a sexual relationship with a woman is. 

There is a brilliant article I read about women's expectations, that I was nodding like a bobble head all the way through, where the lady writes about her own feelings and experiences of being in relationships, and how she realises how bizarre that must seem to her partner (like the time she spent ages getting ready to go out, and he said "Why, you're an 8 in sweat pants, what's the point?", and she burst into tears). 

They say that two thirds of all the world's problems would disappear if everybody simply stayed at home and did nothing. I think that 90% of all problems in relationships would disappear if she would just calm the eff down. But, if it were down to me, I doubt any problem would ever get solved, so, there we go.


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## vauxhall101

Good Guy said:


> Also women have this funny thing that if they do cheat they did nothing wrong and need to blame someone else whereas men just say "yeah I cheated, you got me". Again this is my experience.


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## She'sStillGotIt

knobcreek said:


> Men are not valued by women at all today, we're a commodity. In the past our labor was used to fight wars, build society (it's funny how women didn't demand equal rights until men conquered the jungle and life became much easier, before then they were fine to sit back and watch men do all the heavy lifting),


Get off your high horse - "triggering" or not.

Women have rarely 'sat back and watched' anything throughout history. Except for the rich and privileged, most women have worked their asses off having - and tending to - large amounts of children, keeping the home, caring for their husband, performing the same drudgery of the same chores day after day after day that modern conveniences have made so much *easier* today, and the list goes on and on. 

That's what each gender DID throughout history - they each had their roles. And why shouldn't your 'labor' be used to fight wars? For the most part, it was always men running the world and men who STARTED those wars, but I'm sure women really regret that they couldn't drag their family of 6 or 7 kids onto the battlefield with them - while nursing their infant - and help y'all fight the good fight. :crazy:


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## knobcreek

EleGirl said:


> Gross generalizations accusing all or most of one group of people, based on race, gender, etc. are not tolerated on TAM. I realize that you say you having your bi-annual nervous breakdown, but if you need to take it out on all women, do it elsewhere.
> 
> You would benefit from reading the forum rules.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html
> 
> {speaking as a moderator}


You're right of course, my apologies.


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## Truthseeker1

@sokillme - They allow it just like their betrayed female counterparts. Their wife cheats and they dont expose to "protect' her - well thats on the husband. She sh!ts all over them and has an affair and then they reconcile to a sexless marriage - once again that is on the Bh..I know many of the cases of which you speak and the Bh is a doormat plain and simple. Cases where the WW has a 15 or 25 year affair, brings home an STD, is fvcking her BHs best friend as he lay near death and plans their life together after he dies but he doesnt die (*yes this was a case on another forum*) - well in all those cases the Bh made the choice to stay.


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## BetrayedDad

EleGirl said:


> Gross generalizations accusing all or most of one group of people, based on race, gender, etc. are not tolerated on TAM. I realize that you say you having your bi-annual nervous breakdown, but if you need to take it out on all women, do it elsewhere.


You mean semiannual...... I feel like bi-annual gets confused with biennial so I avoid it.


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## aine

EleGirl said:


> Gross generalizations accusing all or most of one group of people, based on race, gender, etc. are not tolerated on TAM. I realize that you say you having your bi-annual nervous breakdown, but if you need to take it out on all women, do it elsewhere.
> 
> You would benefit from reading the forum rules.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/350914-posting-guidelines-forum-rules-2016-a.html
> 
> {speaking as a moderator}


Agreed, Knobcreek your ranting is misplaced. In those days women didn't have to go out to work, and take care of home, kids, etc. Women were at home and basically treated as the weaker sex in all ways. In modern days, many men want the femininity of old but still expect the woman in his life to bring home the bacon, and pander to him also. So tell me, where is the fairness in that?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

aine said:


> Agreed, Knobcreek your ranting is misplaced. In those days women didn't have to go out to work, and take care of home, kids, etc. Women were at home and basically treated as the weaker sex in all ways. In modern days, many men want the femininity of old but still expect the woman in his life to bring home the bacon, and pander to him also. So tell me, where is the fairness in that?


I never got this at all. Any guy who thinks like that isn't thinking. If someone is picking up responsibility in one are, should they not be relieved of responsibility in another area? Geez, guys, it's the simplest calculation you could possibly have to make with regard to a relationship.


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## Truthseeker1

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I never got this at all. Any guy who thinks like that isn't thinking. If someone is picking up responsibility in one are, should they not be relieved of responsibility in another area? Geez, guys, it's the simplest calculation you could possibly have to make with regard to a relationship.


Agree 100%. A little thoughtfulness goes a long way in any relationship.

The men sokillme described as being abused allow themselves to be abused. I think some other forums have a self-selecting group of BHs who want to b!tch and moan but not really take any concrete steps to fix their lives. Once the Bh knows all the pertinent facts about his wifes affair and he chooses to stay - what happens next is now on him. She gives you little to no sex? On you brother. Go find a woman who is attracted to you. She is still selfish and/or blame shifting? Again on the Bh. It sickens you to wake up next to her? Find a new place to sleep and someone new to sleep with if that is what you desire. I understand the devastation right after dday but there comes a time to pick up the pieces and move on. There are folks whose dday is in the 80s and they are still posting about infidelity. Which tells me their wifes infidelity is a MAJOR part of their identity. People who move on from infidelity dont obsess about it for 10,20, 30 years after. 

I am a skeptic about marriages after infidelity - I think once a cheater breaks the marriage it is never the same again.


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## Bananapeel

vauxhall101 said:


> This is something I have been thinking about based on my own experiences. I have known far more abusive women than abusive men, BUT, this is probably because most of my friends are male, and obviously, I'm not going to be friends with that type of guy.
> 
> I also take the point earlier that any time this is brought up, there is the obvious point, which is that men do far worse things to women, than women do to men. Yes. Agreed. But two wrongs don't make a right. _I_ have never abused a woman, or sold a woman into slavery, or groped anybody, or any of those things. So I am only speaking for myself.
> 
> My wife, if you met her, is sweet as pie. To me, the vast majority of the time, she was sweet as pie. But as soon as something, anything, no matter how small or insignificant, sets her off, she can almost instantaneously become physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive. Frankly, if our behaviour were reversed, I would probably be in jail. But, because she is female, her attitude is that I'm a pig by default, so her treatment of me is acceptable, even warranted. She should punch me because before we met I fancied a girl who wasn't her, it's only right.
> 
> My mother was an alcoholic, my parents were divorced when I was young, and she was abusive too. She would rail against my father, call him names, punch him, but when pushed to come up with something that he had actually done to her, the best I can remember her coming up with was something about him being controlling (yeah, controlling by being your only source of money for booze, what a d).
> 
> I'll give an even more extreme example. I have a friend, known him for years, not an angel for sure, but a really good guy. I stayed with him a few years ago, and his then girlfriend was an absolute terror. On one occasion, she told him she was pregnant - they had a brief celebration together, then she said she was going to get some of her clothing, and come straight back, because my friend had to be up for work at 5am. At 1am, she finally returns, drunk as a lord, having been god knows where. My friend is not happy - you're carrying our baby etc. I was in the middle of all this, as I was staying there. So she punches and kicks, screams, etc. Then she picks up a glass ashtray, and throws it at my friend's face. If he hadn't put his arm up and blocked it, it might have killed him.
> 
> Then the next day, my friend fished the pregnancy test out of the trash, and it was negative. She wasn't pregnant. When he confronted her (again, while I was present, for some reason they were conducting all their business in front of me), it was completely obvious that she knew she had been 'caught out', rather than that she had made a genuine mistake. And when they eventually broke up, was there any comeback on her? Nope, but she continually messaged his friends and family (me included) saying that he was gay, a drug addict, etc, and apparently she asked a friend if the friend thought she should make up a false rape charge against him, as 'revenge' for dumping her. She also spent a lot of time coming on to me, but that's a different story.
> 
> Now, that is an extreme example, of course, but I found it deeply disturbing, and still do. And I think part of the problem is female expectations of their partner.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand, I am certainly not advocating a return to the 1950s, of housewives and patriarchy and so forth. I have a lot of sympathy for feminism, and I'm all in favour of equality of pay, (many) more women in position's of power, rock on. I mentioned in another thread, I think this affects men too, just in a different way - the ubiquity of internet porn has given a lot of young guys a false expectation of what a sexual relationship with a woman is.
> 
> There is a brilliant article I read about women's expectations, that I was nodding like a bobble head all the way through, where the lady writes about her own feelings and experiences of being in relationships, and how she realises how bizarre that must seem to her partner (like the time she spent ages getting ready to go out, and he said "Why, you're an 8 in sweat pants, what's the point?", and she burst into tears).
> 
> They say that two thirds of all the world's problems would disappear if everybody simply stayed at home and did nothing. I think that 90% of all problems in relationships would disappear if she would just calm the eff down. But, if it were down to me, I doubt any problem would ever get solved, so, there we go.


I have friends that are in similar situations as this and tolerate abusive women. Quite honestly, I think it is their own fault. The women are only acting that way because their husbands are putting up with it. If a women ever laid a hand of me or verbally assaulted me the way you described she'd be out the door and out of my life so fast her head would spin. And while I could handle the abuse without it physically/emotionally damaging me there's just no way I ever would want to. Have you ever calmly but firmly just told your wife when she was acting that way that you will not tolerate it and to GTFO?


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## jb02157

PreRaph said:


> I can't say for certain, but my feeling is that women are no longer as favored by the courts as they used to be, and that many more are calling BS on those women who want to claim they were victimized by the patriarchy to try and then use that against men.
> 
> This is not to underestimate the extent of abuse that is out there. It's pretty significant, however there is more awareness that it is happening on both sides of the aisle now rather than automatically assuming men to be the aggressors and perpetrators.


I don't see this at all being true. Women have been and probably always will be favored in court. Our feminist culture allows this.


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## chillymorn69

interesting site

femalesexoffenders.org

shows blatant discrepancies as to sentencing.


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## jb02157

vauxhall101 said:


> This is something I have been thinking about based on my own experiences. I have known far more abusive women than abusive men, BUT, this is probably because most of my friends are male, and obviously, I'm not going to be friends with that type of guy.
> 
> I also take the point earlier that any time this is brought up, there is the obvious point, which is that men do far worse things to women, than women do to men. Yes. Agreed. But two wrongs don't make a right. _I_ have never abused a woman, or sold a woman into slavery, or groped anybody, or any of those things. So I am only speaking for myself.
> 
> My wife, if you met her, is sweet as pie. To me, the vast majority of the time, she was sweet as pie. But as soon as something, anything, no matter how small or insignificant, sets her off, she can almost instantaneously become physically, verbally, and emotionally abusive. Frankly, if our behaviour were reversed, I would probably be in jail. But, because she is female, her attitude is that I'm a pig by default, so her treatment of me is acceptable, even warranted. She should punch me because before we met I fancied a girl who wasn't her, it's only right.
> 
> My mother was an alcoholic, my parents were divorced when I was young, and she was abusive too. She would rail against my father, call him names, punch him, but when pushed to come up with something that he had actually done to her, the best I can remember her coming up with was something about him being controlling (yeah, controlling by being your only source of money for booze, what a d).
> 
> I'll give an even more extreme example. I have a friend, known him for years, not an angel for sure, but a really good guy. I stayed with him a few years ago, and his then girlfriend was an absolute terror. On one occasion, she told him she was pregnant - they had a brief celebration together, then she said she was going to get some of her clothing, and come straight back, because my friend had to be up for work at 5am. At 1am, she finally returns, drunk as a lord, having been god knows where. My friend is not happy - you're carrying our baby etc. I was in the middle of all this, as I was staying there. So she punches and kicks, screams, etc. Then she picks up a glass ashtray, and throws it at my friend's face. If he hadn't put his arm up and blocked it, it might have killed him.
> 
> Then the next day, my friend fished the pregnancy test out of the trash, and it was negative. She wasn't pregnant. When he confronted her (again, while I was present, for some reason they were conducting all their business in front of me), it was completely obvious that she knew she had been 'caught out', rather than that she had made a genuine mistake. And when they eventually broke up, was there any comeback on her? Nope, but she continually messaged his friends and family (me included) saying that he was gay, a drug addict, etc, and apparently she asked a friend if the friend thought she should make up a false rape charge against him, as 'revenge' for dumping her. She also spent a lot of time coming on to me, but that's a different story.
> 
> Now, that is an extreme example, of course, but I found it deeply disturbing, and still do. And I think part of the problem is female expectations of their partner.
> 
> Please don't misunderstand, I am certainly not advocating a return to the 1950s, of housewives and patriarchy and so forth. I have a lot of sympathy for feminism, and I'm all in favour of equality of pay, (many) more women in position's of power, rock on. I mentioned in another thread, I think this affects men too, just in a different way - the ubiquity of internet porn has given a lot of young guys a false expectation of what a sexual relationship with a woman is.
> 
> There is a brilliant article I read about women's expectations, that I was nodding like a bobble head all the way through, where the lady writes about her own feelings and experiences of being in relationships, and how she realises how bizarre that must seem to her partner (like the time she spent ages getting ready to go out, and he said "Why, you're an 8 in sweat pants, what's the point?", and she burst into tears).
> 
> They say that two thirds of all the world's problems would disappear if everybody simply stayed at home and did nothing. I think that 90% of all problems in relationships would disappear if she would just calm the eff down. But, if it were down to me, I doubt any problem would ever get solved, so, there we go.


I have my share of examples of abusive women to and they get away with it because it's tolerated in our society. Women can basically get away with anything and not be held accountable. My wife also has an absolutely explosive temper and she has done many things to both me and the kids that should have landed her in jail. When the kids were small I didn't feel comfortable with her and kids home alone. 

She once threw a glass plate across the kitchen and hit my son square in the head with it. He got a bad cut and I had to take him to the hospital. The hospital called the cops because even though I said my wife did this to him and my son told them the same thing the cops and the hospital still believed I did it. After they questioned my son more they finally believed him. They were prepared to file charges against me, but once they believed she did it, no charges were filed. She never came to the hospital to check on him and the cops never questioned her even though what she had done was a criminal act.

Society condones their abuses and make men like me stay in marriages with them or pay them half their life's earnings to them.


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## uhtred

Society is rather confused on the subject of domestic abuse and ideas are changing. Remember the "funny" image of the angry housewife beating her husband with a rolling pin? Of course that was from an age when it was OK for a man to slap a secretary's butt as she walked past.

There is abuse of and by both men and women: emotional, sexual, physical.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

It is changing. Slowly, but it is. 
Where I live now the standard is 50/50 custody unless you can prove it should not be. Whichever makes more compensates the other so standard of living is more equal in both homes. That has been a mix of the man or the woman as we have a lot more cases now of women making more money. 

FTR- Custody and child support was never a modern day feminism issue. We were seen as the homemakers, the ones who couldn't make our own money, so that's why we got custody and support. It was actually the opposite of feminism why this was the standard.

It changing to be more equal now IS due to feminism, because we are just as capable of working outside the home and not just Moms. 

Everyone wants to blame feminism for anything bad that happens/happened to men


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## Ladywolfzzz

Well i guess that only works in the western world. In most part of Asia, like Indonesia for example, men is the man and leader of the family. Women gain nothing from divorce. Generally men cheats. Men can have four wives if he is moslem. Single never married Women as soon as she hits 35 it's very difficult to get married. Even more if she is a divorcee! A divorced woman is even written in her ID card big and loud: DIVORCEE. And society looks at divorced women with evil eyes. Society pressure women to always act proper, dress proper, speak proper. A cheating wife can almost be sure that her life is over in term of finding another husband. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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