# There are two sides to every story



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

This explains a lot. I found this site on my husbands computer, and after a little poking around, I found where he had asked for advice.

Just when I think COPPERTOP has finally decided to grow up, I find that he has been here and people are filling his head with ideas. I have read his post and now I know why he is doing what he is doing. Well, I hope you people are satisfied. Because of you, he has destroyed our marriage. I had recently agreed to counseling, to try to help him deal with his issues. But now I know it is all a big game to him and I won’t be going, and he will NEVER be allowed to touch me again. Not until he gives up these outlandish notions of his. Notions you people have convinced are normal and right. Well, they’re NOT!

You people don’t know me, and you have no right to judge me. You have no idea what it is like to have to live with COPPERTOP. He isn’t like he makes himself out to be here. You have no idea what it’s like having him constantly nagging on me to have sex. He is never, ever, satisfied. Even when we do have sex, he just wants it again, immediately. I never have any peace. He is always touching me, trying to make me feel guilty. 

He says he just wants to hold me, but now I know he is lying, has he has always been lying. I was just beginning to believe him. He had been doing better this past year and I thought he had finally decided grow up and get control of his addiction. But he has ruined all that. Now I know I can never trust him again. 

I can’t help it if he doesn’t finish. It’s his fault for withholding to try to make me feel bad. Well I don’t! There is no excuse for him doing that just to try to guilt me into going again. I can’t have sex as often as he wants anyway. You people have no idea how hard it is for me and I resent your implication that I’m doing it just to be mean. I treat him as well as I can, better than most wives would. I let him go play with his cars and do the things he wants. If he were normal he would be happy with his life. 

But he’s not normal. The things he wants me to do are disgusting and I refuse to debase myself for his perversions. It is time for him to GROW UP and stop acting like a teenager. We are in our 50’s… nobody has sex several times a week at our age, much less every day, and I believe that those that say they do say that only to impress their friends. Well, I’m not buying it, and no sane person would. 

I’m onto him now. Now I know he is trying to manipulate me. I won’t stand for it. He can leave before I give into his twisted view of the world. Then our kids can know their father for how he really is… a sex addicted pervert that cares only about himself and not his family or his children.


MRS. Coppertop


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Wow, Mrs. Coppertop, and welcome! I don't even read Coppertop's thread or contribute to it, but I can imagine it must be a shock to you to have read it.

Again...I don't know your story at all or his but I did just want to comment...my H is 53 and I'm only a few years younger and we do have sex several times a week and are not "just saying it" to impress our friends. 

I know you must have a lot more going on in your head than this and that you feel betrayed, etc...but still, I just wanted to point out you are incorrect about your assumption of how often couples may be having sex.

I'm sorry if finding TAM has hurt your marriage. For some couples, it really helps them.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Hello Mrs. Copper top,

I am also a person married to a man who desires sex more than me. It can be frustrating because they seem to just nag about sex. It seems as if everything they do for us is geared towards getting more sex from us. However, I came to realize that sex is a way for them to show love and receive love. This is why your hubby came to this site in the first place.

Please consider this, he is scared of losing you and your love for him. He is scared that your weight problem will get worse, and he is scared that if you are dead due to your health problems that he may be a single parent.

I also had health problems for a while due to weight, it can seem like an uphill battle. But please get healthy if only for yourself. 

Your husband loves you and he wants to express that love with you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I am sorry Mrs Coppertop. I did not participate in his thread(s). I regularly disagree with what I consider bitter posters who think marriage is showing up in a monkey suit one day and sex on demand for the rest of your life while phoning the rest in. Hop on over to the Ladies Lounge if you want to tell your story.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

I was one of the posters who was trying to deflect all of the negative comments about Mrs. Coppertop. Her story is similar to mine and I identified with her situation. 

Mrs. Copper, you probably feel angry and betrayed. This TAM place can be a very hostile place for people like us. Please stay and tell us your side of the story so we can help.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> It is time for him to GROW UP and stop acting like a teenager. We are in our 50’s… nobody has sex several times a week at our age, much less every day, and I believe that those that say they do say that only to impress their friends. Well, I’m not buying it, and no sane person would.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lots of 50 and 60 year olds have sex 2-3 times or more a week. It is not unusual at all in a healthy marriage.

Please create a username and start your own thread.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am sorry Mrs Coppertop. I did not participate in his thread(s). I regularly disagree with what I consider bitter posters who think marriage is showing up in a monkey suit one day and sex on demand for the rest of your life while phoning the rest in. Hop on over to the Ladies Lounge if you want to tell your story.


Wow, you obviously haven't read the real Coppertop's thread!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I think I am mixing CopperTop up with someone else. Now I cannot find his thread.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's called "no longer able to cope" further down on this page. It was closed by a moderator a bit ago, unless Coppertop asks to open it to give us an update.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Why don't you make your own screen name and tell us your side then. He is claiming a sexless marriage. He has said you guys have sex 2-3 times a year. A year....If that's not true, then we would love to hear your side of it.

It sometimes helps to have both spouses posting. We had a few couples do this - and we saw both sides. Neither person was listening to the other partner. CLEAR lines of communication were just being ignored due to resentments clouding everything. 

So if you want, please take the time to tell us your side. Maybe you and your H can save this marriage after all.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I remember this happening a few times before. Bullwinkle comes to mind immediately.

Mrs. Coppertop, if you are for real and if your husband is for real, for all I know you two could be the same person, I will answer as if you are real.



> But he’s not normal. The things he wants me to do are disgusting and I refuse to debase myself for his perversions. It is time for him to GROW UP and stop acting like a teenager. We are in our 50’s… nobody has sex several times a week at our age, much less every day, and I believe that those that say they do say that only to impress their friends. Well, I’m not buying it, and no sane person would.


What you husband wants is totally normal and completely adult.

I have sex several time a week and I'm 52. In fact, if my H refused to have sex with me (for months... let alone years) for other than a really really valid reason, refused to even offer some sex play without intercourse...I would leave him.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Would love to discuss our married life on these boards so that they could be set down for posterity, however, my wife has refused, this is not about blame it is about understanding and getting on with each other. Who knows, I would probably spend more time in bed than on these threads.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I remember this happening a few times before. Bullwinkle comes to mind immediately.
> 
> Mrs. Coppertop, if you are for real and if your husband is for real, for all I know* you two could be the same person*, I will answer as if you are real.
> 
> ...


That would be my guess.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I don't get it...why are you pissed off at all of "use" (never read the thread) when you should be like " holey shyt our sex life is really phucked up I bettet sit down with my old man and work this crap out with him and seve this marriage"....

Instead you post here and blame "use " for an *already* crappy marriage.

Don't blame use cuz you can't bang your old man or you won't screw him on a regular bases.

At the end of the day the both of you could have worked this shyt out but instead your old man had to come here to TAM....what the phuck is up with that?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

jacko jack said:


> Would love to discuss our married life on these boards so that they could be set down for posterity, however, my wife has refused, this is not about blame it is about understanding and getting on with each other. Who knows, I would probably spend more time in bed than on these threads.


:iagree:


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Livvie said:


> It's called "no longer able to cope" further down on this page. It was closed by a moderator a bit ago, unless Coppertop asks to open it to give us an update.


Holy moly. I was definitely mixing him up with someone else.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Typical


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I don't know if I have ever posted to his thread, but from what I recall he has a wife he loves and a good life. 

Like many of us here there is a common gap between how much sex is wanted and expected in a marriage. 

There is obviously an issue when one partner decides for both partners how much sex will be had. Both partners promise that each other will be their only sexual outlet for the rest of their LIFE. However, as so often happens, the partner who wants the least amount of sex controls that part of life almost exclusively. 

I'm a 45 year old woman having sex once per week. The reason I'm on this board is because my husband really isn't that into me sexually. It's not so much that I need more sex (although I would not complain) but there is feeling WANTED that is so important in life. To men and women both. It's fortunate you have that. I have walked around my husband in Victoria's secret lingerie with no kids in the house and have gotten no response. That hurts. That hurts a lot. 

Finally, I've gotten a lot of good advice on this board, a shoulder to cry on, ways to cope, a reality check when needed. 

You say you recently agreed to go to counseling to work on HIS issues. Hopefully if you wish to stick around you can at least see its a fairly common issue. You are correct, there are 2 sides to every story.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I haven't read the other thread so I apologize beforehand.

When a HD spouse is married to a LD spouse, the LD spouse will see the HD spouse as a pervert, sex addict, sex 2 - 3x week is way too much when its not, etc. You have to realize that HD men and women need sex because they have high sex drives, regardless of their ages. Age doesn't matter too much. My sex drive today, age 41, is just as bad as in my teens.....only difference is I can control myself much better now. When I turn 50, will my sex drive disappear? Probably not. Sex 2 - 3x week for me is mediocre and barely average. Sex almost every day is what I would like and sometimes multiple times a day!!! But my loving wifee is LD and can go weeks, even month of no sex and doesn't see this as an issue.....that isn't healthy at all.

If I refuse my LD wifee when she actually is in the mood, she gets very upset and angry and tries again later and then the next day even more, until we do have sex!!!

So I must have sex when my LD wifee is in the mood but when I am in the mood HD hubby, she can turn me down the majority of the time and its okay. Just the way it is.:scratchhead:


Take the 5 love languages quiz separately and then exchange the results to each other. At that point you both will understand what each others main love languages are and how to start meeting each others needs. Mine is Physical rating 12 and my wifee's is Acts of Service rating 12. I am HD and she is more LD.

http://www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

For clarification purposes:

HD = high desire for sex
LD = low desire for sex

I would be considered LD, which means I don't desire sex as often as my hubby who is HD.

The 5 love languages book would be helpful in this situation, thanks CB!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

I have learned so much from everyone here. TAM is awesome!!!:smthumbup:

No prob and thx.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> This explains a lot. I found this site on my husbands computer, and after a little poking around, I found where he had asked for advice.
> 
> Just when I think COPPERTOP has finally decided to grow up, I find that he has been here and people are filling his head with ideas. I have read his post and now I know why he is doing what he is doing. Well, I hope you people are satisfied. Because of you, he has destroyed our marriage. I had recently agreed to counseling, to try to help him deal with his issues. But now I know it is all a big game to him and I won’t be going, and he will NEVER be allowed to touch me again. Not until he gives up these outlandish notions of his. Notions you people have convinced are normal and right. Well, they’re NOT!
> 
> ...


Hi

You should re read your words above when you have a calm moment.

Your husband is a grown man-- he doesn't need you to "let" him do anything.

Also, sex a few times a week does not indicate an "addiction." If it did, billions of people would be in trouble.

Contrary to your thoughts, your post has completely validated everything Copper has posted here.

YOU have massive issues and YOU are VERY fortunate to have ended up with a man who has tolerated them as long as Copper has.

Seek help.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

*This explains a lot.* 

I found this site on my husbands computer, and after a little poking around, I found where he had asked for advice.

Just when I think COPPERTOP has finally decided to *grow up*, I find that he has been here and people are *filling his head *with ideas. I have read his post and now I know why he is doing what he is doing. Well, *I hope you people are satisfied. Because of you, he has destroyed our marriage*. I had recently agreed to counseling, to try to *help him deal with his issues*. But now I know it is *all a big game *to him and *I won’t be going*, and *he will NEVER be allowed to touch me again*. Not until he gives up these *outlandish notions of his*. Notions *you people *have *convinced are normal and right. Well, they’re NOT*!

*You people *don’t know me, and you *have no right to judge me. You have no idea *what it is like to have to live with COPPERTOP. He isn’t like he makes himself out to be here. *You have no idea *what it’s like having him constantly nagging on me to have sex. He is never, ever, satisfied. Even when we do have sex, he just wants it again, *immediately*. I never have any peace. He is *always* touching me, trying to make me feel guilty. 

He says he just wants to hold me, but now I know he is *lying*, has he has *always been lying*. I was just *beginning to believe* him. He had been doing better this past *year* and I thought he had finally decided *grow up *and get *control* of his *addiction*. But *he has ruined *all that. Now I know I can *never trust him *again. 

*I can’t help it *if he doesn’t finish. It’s *his fault *for withholding to try to make me feel bad. Well *I don’t*! There is *no excuse *for him doing that just to try to *guilt me *into going again. I can’t have sex as often as he wants anyway. *You people *have *no idea *how hard it is for me and *I resent your implication *that I’m doing it just to be mean. I treat him *as well as I can, better than most wives *would. I *let him go play *with his cars and do the things he wants. *If he were normal *he would be happy with his life. 

But *he’s not normal*. The things he wants me to do are *disgusting* and I refuse to *debase* myself for his *perversions*. It is time for him to *GROW UP *and stop *acting like a teenager*. We are in our 50’s… *nobody has sex several times a week at our age*, much less every day, and *I believe *that those that say they do say that only to *impress their friends*. Well, I’m not buying it, and *no sane person would*. 

I’m *onto him now*. Now I know he is trying to *manipulate* me. *I won’t *stand for it. *He can leave before I give into his twisted view of the world*. Then our *kids can know their father for how he really is… a sex addicted pervert that cares only about himself and not his family or his children.*

*MRS. Coppertop *

Yea it sure does explain a lot. No argument here on that one. 

I feel sorry for him. Delusion is an awful place to reside. 

Coppertop, if you are still out there, cut bait brother. Other fish in the sea looking for what you got for them.


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## ZOV (Apr 2, 2015)

CopperTop[ said:


> Just when I think COPPERTOP has finally decided to grow up, I find that he has been here and people are filling his head with ideas.


This right here shows what a dysfunctional relationship you have with your husband. You treat him like a child. You don't act like his wife, you act more like his mother. For what's it's worth, I'm glad that he's finally waking up and taking action to be a happier individual.

There are many women in their 60's, 70's and even 80's who are morbidly obese and who still have sex with their husbands almost every week. Are they perverts? I guess in your narrow minded world view they are, but at least they are kind, loving wives who their husbands love very much. Unlike you, they have learned to love themselves despite their weight, something which seems you need to learn as well.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Mrs. C., I wonder if the real reason you're so peeved is because your H called you morbidly obese? I mean no disrespect. That would hurt my feelings, even if it were true.

Why don't you join the site and post your story?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Here's an idea.


Take the 5 love languages quiz and exchange the results with each other and from that moment, only focus on each others main love languages and not your own anymore. You are hubby and wifee, married and to love each other, equals, and to take care of each others needs.

Language Profile | The 5 Love Languages®


If you are over weight, don't fret. Find a local gym you'd enjoy, get yearly memberships and start doing cardio and some weight training 5 - 6 days each and every week. Train hard, eat low calorie meals every 3 hours to speed up your metabolism. Find out your blood type and eat for your blood type. It worked wonders for my wifee, who was obese and now has already lost 50 lbs, still going strong and loves all the changes she's going through.

The Blood Type Diets: Blood Type and Your Health


What would happen if you suddenly got a high adventurous sex drive and your loving hubby who has supported you, put a roof over your head and prepared for your retirement lost his sex drive?

You would want sex all the time and he doesn't want sex more than once every few months. How would you deal with that??

You have to see this from his view, a man, your loving hubby, provider, who wants to have sex with you and only you. And he wants sex often with you......he is your loving hubby. Treat him as a man, an equal and rock his world. He has done so much for you.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The sad thing is, I suspect she will not read anything on this thread. She came on, blew up, spued her venom and left. I doubt she will be back. I can only imagine the hell hole Copper is in now.

Ironically her side of the story does not vary much from his side of the story - not at all actually. Very sad indeed!

And shame on us for tying to help a person find satisfaction within his marriage! Tsk, tsk .... :scratchhead:


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Mrs. Coppertop - welcome to the forums! Hopefully you come back with your own profile and start posting. If not, oh well.

I told CT to focus on the single most important part of what he described - your health issues. Was he on the mark regarding your health? Are you morbidly obese? Have you had recent scares at the hospital about your heart? Is your heart starting to enlarge and are you on the road to diabetes? If all that is so, then that's an obvious issue that affects your views on sex. 

Please advise what disgusting things CT wants to do with you sexually? It's good to get a reference point to figure out how much of a deviant he is OR... if you are the one who is the deviant from an otherwise typical sex life. People in their 50s easily have it more than once a week btw.

You do bring up an excellent point - there are 2 sides to every story. As a poster, I try to keep that in mind to the point that many probably think I intentionally play the devil's advocate. But yes, 2 sides should be considered in everything we see on TAM.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I was one of the ones who participated in that thread, filling Copper's head with ideas.

And tbh, I can quite imagine why his wife would be very, very upset after reading that thread. It was full of insults against her, accusations of her being cruel, manipulative, and all sorts of ugly things.

What I hope she realizes, once she has a chance to breathe, is that Copper himself never said any of those things. He was steadfast in his love for her and affirmations of all she offered in that relationship. He was only looking for ways to increase intimacy, to meet his own intimacy needs.

And the only advice he was willing to take wasn't about manipulating, or threatening, or making Mrs. Copper feel bad. Instead he opted to give her exactly what she was asking for, to determine really if that was what she wanted.

So, Mrs. Copper, if you are still reading, please consider some of that before you start punishing him. I know that in your situation, I too would probably be quite hurt, but ask yourself this: Am I hurt because of what Copper said or because of what other posters said? And, now that I know that Mr. Copper is quite serious about his needs, am I going to try and meet him halfway, or am I going to decide that only mine matter?

I hope you two can work this out in a way that makes you both happy.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Mrs CT,

It would be very helpful to learn what aspects of the relationship have been mis-represented on this forum. We'll be the first to call out CopperTop if he has not portrayed his situation accurately.

-Is his portrayal of himself as a fit, good dad accurate in your view?
-Does he over-exaggerate his "sexlessness" plight. It was suggested that you could count the number of times you have relations at two to three times per year. Do you actually have sex weekly and he mis-represented that to the forum? 
- Do face the extent of medical challenges he implied in his posts?

We have no agendas, per se. We're just folks on the Internet. No one's plotting a conspiracy against you. Just trying to help our fellow travellers along the way.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Remember, he came here for advice on how to create a strong marriage where you both get your needs met. He could have simply had an affair or filed for divorce. He is looking for answers, and you must be a part of the solution.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

He said repeatedly he loved you. He countered all the posters that said to destabilize or play power games that he did not want to do that because it would hurt you. Please come back and tell your story.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I'm so very, very sorry everyone.

I violated the first rule of computer security... do not leave websites signed in. You would think, being an IT professional, I would know better. 

I have to go do some more damage control. I will try to get her to come back, but I think that highly unlikely at this point.

The worst part... I had finally worked her into seeing a counselor, but now she has backed out because of what I said here. 

Wish me luck. I think I am going to need it.


Copper


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Good luck, Copper. I hope when she calms down that this is a wake-up call for honest communication and change.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> Mrs. C., I wonder if the real reason you're so peeved is because your H called you morbidly obese? I mean no disrespect. That would hurt my feelings, even if it were true.
> 
> Why don't you join the site and post your story?


I'm back. She's not talking to me at the moment. 

I called her morbidly obese because she is. That wasn't my term, that is a clinical diagnoses from her doctor.

She isn't going to join the site. I wish she would. Maybe the people here could talk some sense into her. But she sees this as just another example of what is wrong with me and my obsession with sex.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I'm back. She's not talking to me at the moment.
> 
> I called her morbidly obese because she is. That wasn't my term, that is a clinical diagnoses from her doctor.
> 
> She isn't going to join the site. I wish she would. Maybe the people here could talk some sense into her. But she sees this as just another example of what is wrong with me and my obsession with sex.



If someone becomes morbidly obese, why not do something about it?

Start by eating very healthy and low calorie meals. The weight will start to come off.

When more weight is lost, start doing some cardio every day. More weight will come off again.

Then even more cardio and some minor weights. More weight comes off still.

This doesn't happen over night. It takes years and its a life style change.

If she doesn't care about her health, very low sex drive, being morbidly obese, then she is the problem and not you.

How can some people let themselves go and do nothing about it and blame others???

Sounds like she is happy the way things are.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

Don't sweat it. 

C2 was looking for an excuse to renege on her promise to attend counseling. 

She's a frightened, selfish person - it's a bad combo. And she knows her behavior isn't defensible, that's why she didn't defend it. Her note was almost entirely focused on trashing you. 

Sadly - I imagine you are going to go beg forgiveness - despite having done nothing wrong. Which will merely feed her reservoir of angry entitlement. 

The irony is that she knows her behavior is indefensible. That's why she won't engage here and is terrified of MC. 




CopperTop said:


> I'm back. She's not talking to me at the moment.
> 
> I called her morbidly obese because she is. That wasn't my term, that is a clinical diagnoses from her doctor.
> 
> She isn't going to join the site. I wish she would. Maybe the people here could talk some sense into her. But she sees this as just another example of what is wrong with me and my obsession with sex.


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I'm back. She's not talking to me at the moment.
> 
> I called her morbidly obese because she is. That wasn't my term, that is a clinical diagnoses from her doctor.
> 
> She isn't going to join the site. I wish she would. Maybe the people here could talk some sense into her. But she sees this as just another example of what is wrong with me and my obsession with sex.


I really do sympathise with you here CopperTop. I wish your wife would come and read some of these follow up messages because I would like to say to her:

How dare you invade another adult's privacy in such a way! This action alone shows that you cannot be trusted and have no respect for your husband as a person. Do you think you own him, his thoughts and his feelings? 

Beware of eavesdropping (both online and IRL) - eavesdroppers seldom hear anything nice said about themselves and I truly think you've had the wakeup call you deserve.

to you CopperTop - you have my every sympathy and I stand in awe of you still trying to make a life with this woman after she's treating you in this way.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

skype said:


> Good luck, Copper. I hope when she calms down that this is a wake-up call for honest communication and change.


Rather than open the other thread, I will just update here.

I followed Always Alone advice and tried to give her just what she wanted. The long and short of it, she was prepared to be just "friends" until she found out that I had separated our finances. 

That made her very angry and even though I never said, nor even suggested, I was leaving, she took it that way. When it was all over, she had decided that she never wanted me to touch her again. 

I was going to tell the kids because there was no longer any way to hide that our marriage was in trouble. I don't fully understand how she thought they wouldn't notice, but she asked me to NOT tell them. 

I used that as a lever to get a concession out of her, and that was to attend counseling. She didn't want to, but she finally agreed. We were going into counseling so that I could be the one "fixed."

I had thought that this was going to be a long drawn out struggle. That it was take months, maybe longer, before she realized that she "missed me." But I never intended to hurt her. But I did, and combine that with her discovering this site while using my computer (while I set up her new one) was the final straw. 

She told me an hour or so ago that she had changed her mind on the counseling. It took me a bit to find out why, but she finally admitted that she had found this site. 

I knew when she said it, I was in trouble. And I am. She doesn't even act mad. Just resigned. Like she has given up. I will do what I always do when we are in conflict... and that is to give her space. I know that many think that is ignoring the problem, I think rug sweeping was the term used, but I don't know any other way to handle it at the moment. 

I'm afraid to press. I have a feeling that my marriage is hanging by the thinnest of threads. Afraid of what she might say to the kids. 

I really do believe that she thinks there is something wrong with me, and I don't want her telling the kids that I'm sick, or a pervert, or a sex addict, or any of the other things that she has called me. 

Right now I am questioning every decision I have made in regards to this. Maybe there is something wrong with me, that I'm willing to wreck everyone's life because I can't control my libido. What kind of person does that make me? Maybe she is right. Maybe I do have a problem.


Copper


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Sadly - I imagine you are going to go beg forgiveness - despite having done nothing wrong. Which will merely feed her reservoir of angry entitlement.


No. I won't seek forgiveness. When I am wrong, I will apologize, but when I don't believe I am wrong, I don't. I just back off and let her stew. Eventually she gets over it. Usually. I'm not so sure about this time.

Many here believe that is an error, and I was roundly criticized for it. But I don't know what else to do. Especially now.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

CuddleBug said:


> If someone becomes morbidly obese, why not do something about it?
> 
> Start by eating very healthy and low calorie meals. The weight will start to come off.
> 
> ...


I know. And I have tried to help her with this. But I get the "You don't understand how hard it is!" and then she gets frustrated and quits trying.

We have everything she needs at home... a resistance machine and a cardio machine. They are in a room with a television, and I use them every night. All she needs is the will.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

doobie said:


> How dare you invade another adult's privacy in such a way! This action alone shows that you cannot be trusted and have no respect for your husband as a person. Do you think you own him, his thoughts and his feelings?


To be fair, it wasn't like I was trying to hide I was coming here. I looked at my start page in Google, and it was listed right there, along with the other websites I frequent regularly.

When she asked to use my computer while I was working on hers, I told her sure!

It never even occurred to me because I didn't feel like I was doing something shameful. Sometimes I'm not very smart.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Coppertop, this might be a dumb question but were you looking for basic sex or more? What specifically did you want? Porn stuff? Basic sex and intimacy? 

I noticed your wife said you wanted disgusting things and I'm curious what that means to her. There's a big gap between basic sex and porn star sex. Just making an attempt to get at what might be going on in her head. Someone who finds basic sex disgusting has serious issues, but porn sex is something else.

She also made reference to you refusing to finish during sex in order to get her to have sex again. Is that true?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doobie (Apr 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> To be fair, it wasn't like I was trying to hide I was coming here. I looked at my start page in Google, and it was listed right there, along with the other websites I frequent regularly.
> 
> When she asked to use my computer while I was working on hers, I told her sure!
> 
> It never even occurred to me because I didn't feel like I was doing something shameful. Sometimes I'm not very smart.


I would hate for my H to read my threads on here - this is the only safe place I have to let off steam. It's not something I can discuss with my women friends as most of them are part of couples that we both know as friends and it wouldn't be fair to him if word got around that he doesn't want sex ever. For this reason, I always use an incognito window to come on TAM and I'm the tecchie one in our marriage so I fix his computer (and would never go through his private stuff). I also usually have two screens on the go - the laptop faces my office door, but this monitor is angled away and if he comes into my office/bedroom, I always minimise this window.

So sorry that you're going through this - you seem like a decent guy doing everything you can to make the marriage last. Lastly, it must be really worrying that she may tell your kids about this - whatever problems you have between you, problems of a sexual nature should never be discussed with the kids - that would be totally unfair to both you and them.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Coppertop, this might be a dumb question but were you looking for basic sex or more? What specifically did you want? Porn stuff? Basic sex and intimacy?
> 
> I noticed your wife said you wanted disgusting things and I'm curious what that means to her. There's a big gap between basic sex and porn star sex. Just making an attempt to get at what might be going on in her head. Someone who finds basic sex disgusting has serious issues, but porn sex is something else.
> 
> ...


Oh boy. You should read his other thread. In a couple of decades, she has never even touched his pen!s. 

As far as the finishing goes, the dynamic she created that he had been dealing with is so awful, I can't even describe it now for you. Please read his thread!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Livvie said:


> Oh boy. You should read his other thread. In a couple of decades, she has never even touched his pen!s.
> 
> As far as the finishing goes, the dynamic she created that he had been dealing with is so awful, I can't even describe it now for you. Please read his thread!


Well i did read some of it but it's a lot to go through so I was hoping he could clarify.

His wife has her own side. It might be unreasonable and nutty but it exists, so maybe the start of this dynamic can be traced back to something more than sex drive disappeared with the kids. 

Maybe not, but what's to lose by clarifying? He wants to save the marriage. At least that's how it looks to me.

I really wish she'd come back and post her side of this. She pointed out that there are two sides which is true but she never said what her side was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Dear kifeistoshort

What you refer to as Basic Sex and Porn Sex, has reared its ugly head in my marriage, my wife has refused to discuss it. Without going into lurid detail, would you please describe the difference, I am not trying to be a dirty old man or get off on this I am trying to understand the situation that I am in. Many thanks in anticipation.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jacko jack said:


> Dear kifeistoshort
> 
> What you refer to as Basic Sex and Porn Sex, has reared its ugly head in my marriage, my wife has refused to discuss it. Without going into lurid detail, would you please describe the difference, I am not trying to be a dirty old man or get off on this I am trying to understand the situation that I am in. Many thanks in anticipation.


I'd say basic sex is sex that you naturally want without any exposure to porn, like piv sex. Maybe in different positions. 

Any ideas you get from porn are porn sex. Some women are open to it and some aren't. Porn tends to be about mens pleasure only. 

Some will tell you they like amateur porn, but that's not really porn. It's regular sex that you'd think of on your own but you get to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Coppertop, this might be a dumb question but were you looking for basic sex or more? What specifically did you want? Porn stuff? Basic sex and intimacy?
> 
> I noticed your wife said you wanted disgusting things and I'm curious what that means to her. There's a big gap between basic sex and porn star sex. Just making an attempt to get at what might be going on in her head. Someone who finds basic sex disgusting has serious issues, but porn sex is something else.
> 
> ...


What she was referring to, I suspect, was oral sex. I have offered her that several times years ago, trying to introduce some variety and to spice up our love life, but she was horrified. She is also not open to alternate positions (missionary only) and it took me years before she would allow me to touch her in her most intimate place. 

The other, is true, but only as far as it goes. I don't refuse to finish. I just... don't. Our sex life is so messed up that I don't, normally, have a chance to finish.

We were intimate a few days ago. First time in 13 months, and she initiated! I was stunned and flabbergasted. Anyway, I spent 45 minutes getting her "in the mood", but then it was over just a couple of minutes after intercourse started. 

She peaked twice, once during foreplay then once after intercourse started. I didn't finish. I was starting out cold and I just couldn't get there before she called it to a stop. So, yes, it's true. I don't do it on purpose, but it upsets her anyway.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Dear lifeistooshort

Thank you for the description, I guessed it would be that, it is funny how I can discuss this with a complete stranger but cannot discuss it in a mature way with my wife, the last three months now have taught me a great deal. Once again thanks for this.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jacko jack said:


> Dear lifeistooshort
> 
> Thank you for the description, I guessed it would be that, it is funny how I can discuss this with a complete stranger but cannot discuss it in a mature way with my wife, the last three months now have taught me a great deal. Once again thanks for this.


Glad I could help 

Probably should've added that many women get their back up when they know you've watched porn because they feel like they can't measure up and they also sometimes feel like they're simply a convenient hole you need now that you've been turned on my porn. You can tell them until you're blue in the face it's not true but often they won't believe you. I suppose it's a little like you knowing your wife watches videos of huge c0cks regularly that you know are twice the size of yours and even though she assures you that yours is enough you don't quite believe her. Then she asks for things that not only bring you no pleasure but are uncomfortable for you.

The stranger thing isn't surprising, you have no investment in me or vice versa. I'm not going to tell anyone anything you say because I have no idea who you are and likely don't know anyone you know anyway. And if I judge you well, you don't know who I am so you have no reason to care. 

I think this is a great place to share ideas and learn from each other....too bad it often turns into a fight


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> What she was referring to, I suspect, was oral sex. I have offered her that several times years ago, trying to introduce some variety and to spice up our love life, but she was horrified. She is also not open to alternate positions (missionary only) and it took me years before she would allow me to touch her in her most intimate place.
> 
> The other, is true, but only as far as it goes. I don't refuse to finish. I just... don't. Our sex life is so messed up that I don't, normally, have a chance to finish.
> 
> ...



Hmm, all I can say to that is that I was never open to oral either until my current husband. Even then it took me a while to become open enough to expose myself like that.

In my case it's likely csa related, I have a hard time making myself vulnerable. We've gotten to the point where I'm open to most things and the things I'm not interested in have nothing to do with vulnerability. They're just things I'm physically not interested in. I can add that if he'd done anything at all to to use my vulnerability against me our sex life would've disappeared. Not saying you did anything like that, just relaying my own experience.

Does your wife have trouble being vulnerable? Did you always have trouble finishing or did that start as your sex life declined? For some reason your wife seems to think it's deliberate.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> What she was referring to, I suspect, was oral sex. I have offered her that several times years ago, trying to introduce some variety and to spice up our love life, but she was horrified. She is also not open to alternate positions (missionary only) and it took me years before she would allow me to touch her in her most intimate place.
> 
> The other, is true, but only as far as it goes. I don't refuse to finish. I just... don't. Our sex life is so messed up that I don't, normally, have a chance to finish.
> 
> ...


Wow... these issues are deep. So sorry OP.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Few have it worse CT. So sorry your valiant efforts are not paying dividends. I hereby nominate you for sainthood for putting up with your unforgiving situation with the very best efforts that would test any mans patience beyond what words can express. 

Thread title. "Two sides to every story" 

Uses and we have both sides and they are the same.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Hmm, all I can say to that is that I was never open to oral either until my current husband. Even then it took me a while to become open enough to expose myself like that.
> 
> In my case it's likely csa related, I have a hard time making myself vulnerable. We've gotten to the point where I'm open to most things and the things I'm not interested in have nothing to do with vulnerability. They're just things I'm physically not interested in.
> 
> Does your wife have trouble being vulnerable? Did you always have trouble finishing or did that start as your sex life declined?


The CSA thing has come up for discussion before. While I have no way to know if that is a possible cause, my instinct is no. She has never mentioned it, nor do I get that vibe from her family.

If I "let sleeping dogs lie" and don't pressure her sexually, she seems perfectly normal. She gets upset at life's little troubles and will come to me seeking assurances. I would say no, she has no issues with opening herself up to me... except sexually. 

I never had trouble finishing before, and I don't think I would now, except I need more than 90 seconds to get there. I don't say that flippantly. Once she is done, she is DONE and we have to stop. Our latest "romp" was over in less than two minutes. I know, because I looked at the clock when we started and when we stopped. 

After her second orgasm, she said, and I am quoting this exactly, "That's enough for tonight."

I didn't say anything... I never do. That just leads to fights, and I didn't want to fight. Not then. For the first time I can remember, she came to me and she seemed interested. She even touched my face a moment as she rose to her peak.

But it still ended in the same way that it always does. And after it was over, she expressed her annoyance that I hadn't also peaked. 

It is getting so that I expect it to end this way, and that makes the problem even worse. It's an incredibly difficult situation. I don't even know what normal is anymore.


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## jacko jack (Feb 19, 2015)

Dear lifestooshort

My wife is a CSA victim by her step-father, at least that is what she alleges, I have found out she has told lies to me in the past, however, I still believe her about this event.
However, if this is not unpleasant for you, the vulnerability issue, I think I understand it and I have had a female counsellor explain it to me, but could you explain it to me. I probably cannot fathom what it is like to be a victim of CSA but can only guess. I would like my wife to go to counselling as I am sure that she would benefit from it.
If you choose not to answer, I will understand.
Many thanks in anticipation.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

What Are My Options said:


> Few have it worse CT. So sorry your valiant efforts are not paying dividends. I hereby nominate you for sainthood for putting up with your unforgiving situation with the very best efforts that would test any mans patience beyond what words can express.
> 
> Thread title. "Two sides to every story"
> 
> Uses and we have both sides and they are the same.


I'm no saint. I know that. 

The thing is, up until recently, life wasn't so bad. Yes, I was lacking intimacy with C2, but otherwise, life was pretty good. But now I have messed up even that. 

I keep hearing that old saying running through my mind... "Be careful what you wish for... you may get it."

I wanted the dynamics of my marriage to change. Boy, have they ever.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I never had trouble finishing before, and I don't think I would now, except I need more than 90 seconds to get there. I don't say that flippantly. Once she is done, she is DONE and we have to stop. Our latest "romp" was over in less than two minutes. I know, because I looked at the clock when we started and when we stopped.
> 
> After her second orgasm, she said, and I am quoting this exactly, "That's enough for tonight."
> 
> .


This is what I would term a form of emotional type sexual abuse.

And it's intentional.

I don't know how you can put up with this treatment. Please read about codependency. Learning about it helped me a ton. It might help you expect and settle for nothing less than better treatment


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> I have messed up


To be clear I do not know your situation outside of this thread but I will say I am not seeing it that way. 

Please consider three things. 

1. Asking mods to offer you a different account so you can go back to being anonymous from your wife on this forum 

2. Google "cognitive distortions and read the Wikipedia entry for them 

3. Try to figure out why you are taking blame for that which is not your bad. She is absurdly unreasonable. Own your $hit but do not own someone else $hit. It is not healthy to take the blame for someone's else impossible lack of cooperation repeatedly. DO NOT beat yourself up over anything but the boner move leave your anonymous logon accessible. For that you better just chalk it up to a bonor. NO one is perfect. Her reaction though is very telling to the impossible situation you are attempting to wrangle with. 

No one sane would disrespect your decision to throw in the towel. If you would, IC is on order for relief you rightly deserve for yourself. IT appears you are suffering from guilt where there perhaps should be none. That needs to get worked out to live a healthy life.


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Livvie said:


> Please read about codependency. Learning about it helped me a ton. It might help you expect and settle for nothing less than better treatment


+1 :iagree: with love to you


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Proceed with counseling anyways and invite her to come. Also I would suggest you take the lead tonight and call a family meeting with the kids. After all, she is not doing what she said she would do, so follow through. Don't change your plan now. Stick with it. Nothing has changed, because she found out about your seeking support from a forum. You did nothing wrong. And what you are asking from her - to go to counseling is totally reasonable and extremely needed. Keep focused. 

Tell your children, you and your wife have some major relationship issues and that you are trying to work it out by getting some professional help and hope your wife will attend counseling with you. If she tells the kids you are a sex addict and have chosen sex over the family - call her on it. Tell them that is not true. Tell them you are not putting them in the middle of things, and that it is your intention to stay married and keep working on your issues with their mom, and you hope she will do the same. Reassure them you will not leave them or the home unless your wife forces you to. 

Let your wife do as she wants - ignore her tirades and reiterate that YOU are very willing to work on keeping the marriage again, but her way of keeping it together is not acceptable to you any more. 

I would also suggest you get the kids some counseling too. The last thing you need is your wife passing her totally dysfunctional view about sex onto your children. She may refuse to change and continue to be irrational and unhealthy both physically and emotional, but you and the kids don't have to be.

Good Luck - I told you things would get worse. Don't give up - it isn't over yet. I suspect that if you do start counseling and have counseling for the Kids, she will eventually join in, to try to control it. But a good counselor won't let that happen.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

What Are My Options said:


> To be clear I do not know your situation outside of this thread but I will say I am not seeing it that way.
> 
> Please consider three things.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm so very, very sorry everyone.
> 
> I violated the first rule of computer security... do not leave websites signed in. You would think, being an IT professional, I would know better.
> 
> ...


Copper- maybe this is the push you need to finally end this disaster. She'll be doing you a favor if she ends it. Don't live the rest of your life as a slave to this person. You deserve so much better.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well i did read some of it but it's a lot to go through so I was hoping he could clarify.
> 
> His wife has her own side. It might be unreasonable and nutty but it exists, so maybe the start of this dynamic can be traced back to something more than sex drive disappeared with the kids.
> 
> ...


Mrs. Coppertop has said her side. And Coppertop, you also need to read what I'm writing below.

Coppertop is in her view a pervert. His sexual requests are abnormal and completely unreasonable. No one at their age has sex multiple times per week. People that say they do are either liars (or fellow perverts, although unsaid). She has to endure his perversion on a daily basis and once (no matter how infrequent) is never enough.

I went through almost exactly this. I went to a site at which I was participating to vent about my then-wife, saying finding someone else was starting to have appeal. She had seen me wait over a year with zero sex for her to open up, opened up for a few weeks, then started shutting down again. She snooped through my computer, found what I had written, and took the attitude of "since what I provide is so bad, we won't have any sex". And, she meant it.

What sex acts did my ex find offensive and perverted? Oral, toys, dirty talk, masturbation - pretty much anything not PIV. Also, sex for recreation and satisfaction was wrong. She said sex was for (1) having children and (2) to "connect" (which means meeting her emotional need for closeness). She slvt-shamed whoever else I had slept with too.

And, as others have warned Coppertop's wife might do, my ex spread misinformation to bring pressure against me. She told certain of my family and our pastors I regularly abused her. When the pastors told her she was full of it and started holding her accountable for her behavior, she pretty much stopped attending.

Coppertop, you need to get the hell out of there, ASAP. I learned that my ex's lies did not fool anyone who knew us both well. Not that I cared much, but you do care about that. I made the mistake of waiting for the status quo to return after that blow-up. What happened instead is she bided her time until she made and executed a plan to leave.

You, my friend, need to learn from that mistake I made. Your wife considers you a pervert (or at least treats you in that manner). Now, to her you are dirt, because your perversion has reached such depths as to enlist others in your attempt to debase and corrupt her.

Get out now before she has time to act against you. I would bet my next check that she will despise you, however quietly, and stay only as long as she feels there is no other practicable alternative.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Copper- one more thing. Remember when your wife told you that she would destroy you in a divorce? THAT is the person you are dealing with. She is NOT your friend. 

If this situation is going down the tubes (which it seems like it is and should) you need to play to WIN. Because that is what she will do.

Protect yourself.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> For some reason your wife seems to think it's deliberate.


If you were to ask her, she would attribute his failure to orgasm to his "perverted" view on sex. He cannot cum because his sex needs make him hard to stimulate. If he MBs, she will toss that in there.

Basically, she expects him to be like a horny teenager who shoots after a minute or two. Since that is not happening, she is taking the arguments you hear people make about serious porn addicts needing more and more intense forms, and applying them to her situation.

Read the book "Every Man's Battle" for more info on how she thinks. It's scary when you realize there is a real movement that believes this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I do wish that Mrs. CT would make her own account and come tell her side if things.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Copper Top, I will just add my story of things getting worse and hanging by a thread but then getting better. 

Two years ago I was put on a medication to prevent migraines and within a month it caused me to slip into a suicidal state. Very scary. But before I got to that point I was filled with a manic energy and my filter broke. I started telling people things I had only thought about before. 

Like telling my husband I'd never had an orgasm with him or anyone else. In 18 years (with him) because in all that time he'd given me zero stimulation. 

After that he didn't touch me for quite a while and then it was very bumpy for quite a while too. Finally it does seem to me like we won't divorce over our intimacy. But thing do get worse before they get better. 

And if she will not bend a bit and is determined to never let you touch her again then I guess you know where you stand. And maybe that's not best for you in the long term.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I never read Copper Tops threads.. just reading the posts here , especially what Always Alone wrote of him...steadfastly sticking by her side...with so little in return.... I got tears in my eyes just imaging what he has sacrificed over the years...this alone is a testament to his love for his wife...where most husbands would have just left the marriage a long time ago...




> *Always Alone said*: What I hope she realizes, once she has a chance to breathe, *is that Copper himself never said any of those things. He was steadfast in his love for her and affirmations of all she offered in that relationship. He was only looking for ways to increase intimacy, to meet his own intimacy needs.
> 
> And the only advice he was willing to take wasn't about manipulating, or threatening, or making Mrs. Copper feel bad. Instead he opted to give her exactly what she was asking for, to determine really if that was what she wanted.
> *
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

After reading your posts and C2's tirade I'm confident that: 
- You've got about the worst case of Stockholm syndrome I've ever seen in a mature, high functioning man. At some level you equate divorce with the worst things that could possibly happen. 
- The irony is that you will be MASSIVELY happier in a post C2 world. 

Your son will stay with you. C2 will move in with mommy. So your son will see less of C2. Her choice. 

Copper - wake up my man. C2 is morbidly obese. She isn't all that worried about being around for much of your sons life. There's a reason those medical folks used the word 'morbid' in the term. 





QUOTE=CopperTop;12297098]Rather than open the other thread, I will just update here.

I followed Always Alone advice and tried to give her just what she wanted. The long and short of it, she was prepared to be just "friends" until she found out that I had separated our finances. 

That made her very angry and even though I never said, nor even suggested, I was leaving, she took it that way. When it was all over, she had decided that she never wanted me to touch her again. 

I was going to tell the kids because there was no longer any way to hide that our marriage was in trouble. I don't fully understand how she thought they wouldn't notice, but she asked me to NOT tell them. 

I used that as a lever to get a concession out of her, and that was to attend counseling. She didn't want to, but she finally agreed. We were going into counseling so that I could be the one "fixed."

I had thought that this was going to be a long drawn out struggle. That it was take months, maybe longer, before she realized that she "missed me." But I never intended to hurt her. But I did, and combine that with her discovering this site while using my computer (while I set up her new one) was the final straw. 

She told me an hour or so ago that she had changed her mind on the counseling. It took me a bit to find out why, but she finally admitted that she had found this site. 

I knew when she said it, I was in trouble. And I am. She doesn't even act mad. Just resigned. Like she has given up. I will do what I always do when we are in conflict... and that is to give her space. I know that many think that is ignoring the problem, I think rug sweeping was the term used, but I don't know any other way to handle it at the moment. 

I'm afraid to press. I have a feeling that my marriage is hanging by the thinnest of threads. Afraid of what she might say to the kids. 

I really do believe that she thinks there is something wrong with me, and I don't want her telling the kids that I'm sick, or a pervert, or a sex addict, or any of the other things that she has called me. 

Right now I am questioning every decision I have made in regards to this. Maybe there is something wrong with me, that I'm willing to wreck everyone's life because I can't control my libido. What kind of person does that make me? Maybe she is right. Maybe I do have a problem.


Copper[/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Good lord copper, just get yourself into therapy and stop trying to fix your wife. Her issues are so severe they will never get any better without HER desire to work on herself.

Your issues cannot and will not be solved on TAM. You need face to face therapy.

Stop posting here and go find a good male therapist. Yes a male!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If C2 trashes Copper with the kids he ought to send them an email and copy her. 

It ought to be short. 

Kids,
This will be my only communication on the subject. Your Mom and I have very different views of what constitutes a healthy marriage. I'm confident that my expectations are actually very low. Therefore I have been attempting to get your Mother to agree to marriage counseling for years. 

She has refused to attend so far. In my experience, people who truly believe they are being fair and reasonable are comfortable putting themselves in front of a third party. 

C2 and I had agreed to keep the two of you out of our impasse. Other than this one message, I plan to stick with that. Going forward I do hope that C2 expresses whatever thoughts she has about me to a licensed MC, not to the two people who least want to be stuck in the middle of this situation. 




mary35 said:


> Proceed with counseling anyways and invite her to come. Also I would suggest you take the lead tonight and call a family meeting with the kids. After all, she is not doing what she said she would do, so follow through. Don't change your plan now. Stick with it. Nothing has changed, because she found out about your seeking support from a forum. You did nothing wrong. And what you are asking from her - to go to counseling is totally reasonable and extremely needed. Keep focused.
> 
> Tell your children, you and your wife have some major relationship issues and that you are trying to work it out by getting some professional help and hope your wife will attend counseling with you. If she tells the kids you are a sex addict and have chosen sex over the family - call her on it. Tell them that is not true. Tell them you are not putting them in the middle of things, and that it is your intention to stay married and keep working on your issues with their mom, and you hope she will do the same. Reassure them you will not leave them or the home unless your wife forces you to.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I do wish that Mrs. CT would make her own account and come tell her side if things.


It won't happen because she might have to expose herself, leave herself open to people disagreeing with her.

Y'all should read BullWinkles thread. Now that was entertaining!


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## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> After reading your posts and C2's tirade I'm confident that:
> - You've got about the worst case of Stockholm syndrome I've ever seen in a mature, high functioning man. At some level you equate divorce with the worst things that could possibly happen.
> ...


+1 :iagree:

Here is the link Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She knows her position isn't defensible. 

There's a good reason certain folks fight so hard to avoid MC. 






Anon Pink said:


> It won't happen because she might have to expose herself, leave herself open to people disagreeing with her.
> 
> Y'all should read BullWinkles thread. Now that was entertaining!


----------



## What Are My Options (Mar 28, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Good lord copper, just get yourself into therapy and stop trying to fix your wife. Her issues are so severe they will never get any better without HER desire to work on herself. Your issues cannot and will not be solved on TAM. You need face to face therapy.!


I am with you up to here. 



Anon Pink said:


> Stop posting here


In my experience, the time frame between appointments can be a challenge when you need some immediate support. How does it hurt to supplement his therapy while also getting support here? 

Totally agree with need for IC but why stop seeking support from this wonderfully supportive place? :scratchhead:


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Because his wife is reading every word and holding it against him.

AP just Mirandized him.


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## Shake_It_Up (Apr 1, 2015)

If I found my wife posting to a forum, complaining that I never hold her, don't talk to her, don't show her affection, and turn her down for sex, I think that would be a wake up call FOR ME TO GET OFF MY A$$ and show her that I'm serious about meeting her needs and saving my marriage.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> Because his wife is reading every word and holding it against him.


At this point, I would say "so what". If I were Coppertop and she said anything about TAM, I would tell her that I accurately represented the facts and will communicate those facts to whomever I please. 

I would also point out that her critique of his TAM posting is laughable. If she was so convinced she was in the right, why would she mind him getting an outside opinion?

You're talking about a woman who is a terrible wife yet expects total and utter devotion to her. She is trying to isolate him (isn't that considered abusive behavior?); now she ridicules his attempts to get some perspective on this issue.

Her problem is that she has done so little for him, for so long, she has nothing to withhold. Her only leverage is to browbeat him into submission. Seeing myself write this, I think he needs to stay on TAM just to show that he will not cower this time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A couple sincere observations regarding C2's discovery. 

First and foremost Copper has remained entirely anonymous. Therefore from a practical view nothing he's said impacts her reputation. 

I believe an objective third party like a divorce judge, would find C2's rage and contempt filled rant to be quite an eye opener as to what she's really like. 






DTO said:


> At this point, I would say "so what". If I were Coppertop and she said anything about TAM, I would tell her that I accurately represented the facts and will communicate those facts to whomever I please.
> 
> I would also point out that her critique of his TAM posting is laughable. If she was so convinced she was in the right, why would she mind him getting an outside opinion?
> 
> ...


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I do wish that Mrs. CT would make her own account and come tell her side if things.


She can't even have a decent dialog with her old man what makes you think she can have a dialog with us?


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Original post is

a royal hissyfit.

almost every sentence screams out abuse


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Too tired to try it tonight but I will run a couple samples from both thru linguistic analysis software to get metrics that usually identify if two pieces came from the same writer. Doesn't look like tho.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

Copper - my wife was is CSA.
She lost 100 pounds and made a career out of weight loss.
CSA recently came out. I came to TAM cause of intimacy and infidelity issues. Wife wont do oral no matter how much better things have gotten - about 1x per week which is a major improvement.

I bet if you dig deep enough you'll find it in your wife. Be aware - if it surfaces you are in for a major roller coaster the likes of which you cannot imagine. worse than anything you've experienced so far.

Many partners of CSA bail. Its so hard to deal with. Adult manifestations are similar to what you are experiencing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I'm no saint. I know that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For the better. 

Sometimes it takes something of this magnitude to convince you of how ugly she's treated you.

Perhaps you could also show her some of my posts regarding my Pearl Harbor approach. It would maybe make her think a bit about being old and alone, possibly with serious chronic illness, without her kids, all while you're living it up. But you're better than that and I commend you.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Mrs CopperTop
I assume you are reading now that you have seen this.

I understand reacting with shock when you find out your partner has been trying to get advice on the web. But now you need to think carefully. This sort of place is a last resort. 

I am in a situation similar to CopperTops. A few years ago I was literally 3 minutes away from asking for a divorce. Now as our sexlife has fallen apart again, my thoughts are drifting that way again.

Read what others have written here in many threads. This situation is not unique, and many men AND women are suffering in relationships where their partners have no desire for them. When these people finally leave - they are happy. 

Do you want to lose him? I think that will happen very soon if you don't manage to get to counseling with him. If he is like me, once he leaves, he will never come back. If you love him, do you really want that? 

If you don't love him, its best to let him go - for his sake and yours.


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## totallywarped (Jan 26, 2013)

a husband that wants to touch you, make love to you and have a connection with you... you poor thing how do you cope?


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## totallywarped (Jan 26, 2013)

to the real coppertop, if you want any privacy here you need a new account. She now knows who you are and will read everything you post. You can always pm your friends and tell them your new name


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

totallywarped said:


> to the real coppertop, if you want any privacy here you need a new account. She now knows who you are and will read everything you post. You can always pm your friends and tell them your new name


He would need moderator permission to get a second account here. Making multiple accounts will get a person banned under most circumstances.


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## R4ce (Mar 29, 2015)

Sounds like the best thing for Copper, would be to get far, far from you.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Chris H. can change a user name.

Just be careful of the login credentials this time and take it to the private forum.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jacko jack said:


> Dear lifestooshort
> 
> My wife is a CSA victim by her step-father, at least that is what she alleges, I have found out she has told lies to me in the past, however, I still believe her about this event.
> However, if this is not unpleasant for you, the vulnerability issue, I think I understand it and I have had a female counsellor explain it to me, but could you explain it to me. I probably cannot fathom what it is like to be a victim of CSA but can only guess. I would like my wife to go to counselling as I am sure that she would benefit from it.
> ...



I don't mind, but we probably shouldn't threadjack like this or we'll get in trouble. Consider starting a thread on this and I'll post, and I'm sure others will as well. I'm not the only one here.....


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I knew when she said it, I was in trouble. And I am. She doesn't even act mad. Just resigned. Like she has given up. I will do what I always do when we are in conflict... and that is to give her space. I know that many think that is ignoring the problem, I think rug sweeping was the term used, but I don't know any other way to handle it at the moment.
> 
> I'm afraid to press. I have a feeling that my marriage is hanging by the thinnest of threads. Afraid of what she might say to the kids.
> 
> ...


Copper, first let me say that I'm truly sorry if it was anything that I said that led to further decline in your marriage. Not at all what I was aiming for, and I'm a bit appalled to think that I have played a role.

I feel I have to say, though, that we did talk about this eventuality in your other thread. Whether it is CSA or not, I don't know, but there is some kind of wound or hurt deep inside your wife that she is protecting, that she is desperately afraid to let go of. And disrupting that dynamic that you'd established for so many years was guaranteed to result in episodes of lashing out and backsliding. Guaranteed. I don't care who you are, these types of changes are always difficult and painful, and the tendency is always to seek what feels easier, safer, more comfortable.

And since you have always been there to reassure her, to go back to her status quo, to accept what she defines for your world and hers, that is what she will push you towards. She likes it that you are helping her to protect her hurts, not confront them, and will keep pushing you to be that person for her. This is why she lashes out. To shame and guilt you into being that person for her.

So yes, you do have a problem. But your problem isn't your need to disrupt the status quo. It is that you haven't extremely unhealthy dynamic on your hands and need professional support to get out of it.

From what you have said, I get the impression that the "breakthrough", her agreement to go to counseling wasn't actually a breakthrough at all. She was simply agreeing as a bargaining chip. The commitment to work on the issues wasn't there, as she still wants to see it as your issue not hers.

I do find it interesting, though, that you chose to separate your finances as your signal to her. Why that? You must've known that this would send exactly the same message as the threats of leaving that you were actively resisting in that thread? How else could disentangling finances be interpreted?

Because you chose this method, and not the simpler "take yourself out to dinner" or "sleep in the guestroom," which is really what I was suggesting, I'm wondering if there isn't a big part of your that really actually does want to dissolve this marriage.

You say it is hanging by a thread, and you will back off until she cools down. You will return to your comfortable, predictable dynamic because you don't know what else to do. You don't want to be the one who ends the marriage.

But ask yourself this: what happens if she ends it? How would that make you feel? And is that what you are subtly pushing her to?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

DoneWithHurting said:


> Copper - my wife was is CSA.
> She lost 100 pounds and made a career out of weight loss.
> CSA recently came out. I came to TAM cause of intimacy and infidelity issues. Wife wont do oral no matter how much better things have gotten - about 1x per week which is a major improvement.
> 
> ...


I think that CSA is a large part of her issue, her first post screams sexual aversion. Also a major part as to why she gained so much weight during this marriage. This is a woman who is drowning in shame and self loathing, in her view why would anybody want to love her?

She will reject any and all attempts for someone To break through her shell. Copper's thread and all of the ugly, hostile comments made by other posters confirmed to her what she thinks of herself. That she is unworthy of love and affection.

A person in this state does not project love and acceptance, only fear, control and loathing. As I stated in my previous post, TAM is not a kind place for LDs to fully express themselves. There are so many HDs who are lashing out because they are too bitter and hurt to see anything beyond how rejected they feel. So for her to come here should have been a place for her to reach out beyond her wall. But some of the previous comments in this thread were insulting and mean, I wouldn't want to continue to post here if I were her.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Copper, first let me say that I'm truly sorry if it was anything that I said that led to further decline in your marriage. Not at all what I was aiming for, and I'm a bit appalled to think that I have played a role.
> 
> I feel I have to say, though, that we did talk about this eventuality in your other thread. Whether it is CSA or not, I don't know, but there is some kind of wound or hurt deep inside your wife that she is protecting, that she is desperately afraid to let go of. And disrupting that dynamic that you'd established for so many years was guaranteed to result in episodes of lashing out and backsliding. Guaranteed. I don't care who you are, these types of changes are always difficult and painful, and the tendency is always to seek what feels easier, safer, more comfortable.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

This is what results in a marriage where there was never any full sexual openness and compatibility. From the beginning they only had sex 3-4 times per week, he traveled a lot and that is the only time when they had sex. I stated in that thread that my hubby and I were way more sexually active, we were intimate multiple times per day. He stated that they never did that, that he always wanted more but never brought it to her attention until recently.

This is what happens when the HD person does not state their desires early on. In the early stages of the relationship you gauge whether or not you are compatible, not after the mortgage and kids come along. He sprung this on her recently, she is the same from the beginning of their relationship and he is the one that changed.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Openness helps bridge compatibility issues. 

Sometimes it requires a solid sense of self - to handle the truth. But overall transparency helps a lot. 

We have a simple rule. No lying. You can refuse to answer. You can redirect. But you can't say stuff that isnt true. 

There's one question M2 asks me at least once a year, that she herself won't answer. 

What is your ideal frequency? 

She asks, I answer. I ask she redirects. I could push. But maybe she's right about this one. Maybe I won't like the answer. 

Maybe 100% transparency isn't always the best. 




techmom said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is what results in a marriage where there was never any full sexual openness and compatibility. From the beginning they only had sex 3-4 times per week, he traveled a lot and that is the only time when they had sex. I stated in that thread that my hubby and I were way more sexually active, we were intimate multiple times per day. He stated that they never did that, that he always wanted more but never brought it to her attention until recently.
> 
> This is what happens when the HD person does not state their desires early on. In the early stages of the relationship you gauge whether or not you are compatible, not after the mortgage and kids come along. He sprung this on her recently, she is the same from the beginning of their relationship and he is the one that changed.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Openness helps bridge compatibility issues.
> 
> Sometimes it requires a solid sense of self - to handle the truth. But overall transparency helps a lot.
> 
> ...


So would you prefer the LD/HD struggle to the open transparency?

Do we want the constant guessing games, fighting, and general sexual discomfort to knowing exactly where our LD partner stands?

As an LD, Mrs. Copper never misrepresented herself, her frequency was 3-4 times per week. No touching the privates, and no dirty talk. Copper accepted this, then became frustrated as time passed. She didn't become aware of this discomfort until recently. She does not want to change. It is like when a guy comes on here and says, " my wife and I had all kinds of passionate sex multiple times a day before marriage, now she won't even give me oral sex". What would we say to this guy?

Bait and switch.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

techmom said:


> As an LD, Mrs. Copper never misrepresented herself, her frequency was 3-4 times per week. No touching the privates, and no dirty talk. Copper accepted this


Its like my cousin, Dr. Gaberdine Pheonix M.D. who teaches psychiatry down at LSU School of Medicine would call it, "masterbatus in vaginus"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TechMom,

We have no tension. M2 asks my ideal frequency once or twice a year. And I say:
- Every other day is ideal
- I'm very happy with twice a week (which is our actual frequency)

The reason she's the one asking is because maybe initiate 1-2 times a year. 

She's LD so it's better to let her pick the times best for her. 

M2's sexual communication falls into (3) very obvious categories:
1. We are about to fall asleep, she asks if I want to connect. That question is just M2 taking my temperature. 

I usually just laugh. Which means I'm not mad. I'm not tense. And it's nice that she cares enough to ask. And it also opens the door to me responding with: tomorrow 

2. Some type of initiation that seems driven by guilt or anxiety. I just shrug and either say tomorrow or 'relax, we're good'. 

3. Any other type initiation gets a big YES





techmom said:


> So would you prefer the LD/HD struggle to the open transparency?
> 
> Do we want the constant guessing games, fighting, and general sexual discomfort to knowing exactly where our LD partner stands?
> 
> ...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Just to chime in. Mrs. Conan and I are both CSA survivors, me to the extreme, and we both overcame and enjoy a very healthy sex life. She is a 6-7 times a week lady and I have never fully tested my limits. She is 55 and I am 44. Best wishes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> TechMom,
> 
> We have no tension. M2 asks my ideal frequency once or twice a year. And I say:
> - Every other day is ideal
> ...


Yours is one of the rare cases I'm afraid. Copper and his wife are not coping well at all with it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TM,

I am a bit dumbfounded. 

We have a desire gap, that we easily work around because each of us wants the other to feel good. And while frequency is less than my ideal - M2 is a fantastic lover. 

Copper and C2 are co parents. That's pretty much it. 












techmom said:


> Yours is one of the rare cases I'm afraid. Copper and his wife are not coping well at all with it.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

There were so many more issues with mrs copper besides sex. Basically treating Copper like a child who she "let" do things. 

So many major major problems and yet she has succeeded to this day convincing copper that he is the source of all of their problems.

If the roles were reversed and mrs copper was a man it would be clear as day to everyone that she is an abusive person and copper needs to be rescued.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We only have a single post from C2, but that post was filled with contempt, condescension and fury. 






Anon1111 said:


> There were so many more issues with mrs copper besides sex. Basically treating Copper like a child who she "let" do things.
> 
> So many major major problems and yet she has succeeded to this day convincing copper that he is the source of all of their problems.
> 
> If the roles were reversed and mrs copper was a man it would be clear as day to everyone that she is an abusive person and copper needs to be rescued.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Copper, first let me say that I'm truly sorry if it was anything that I said that led to further decline in your marriage. Not at all what I was aiming for, and I'm a bit appalled to think that I have played a role.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Always,

I take full responsibility for my actions. They were mine and mine alone and I assign you no fault. As you saw from my other thread, if I didn't think your idea had merit, I would have not budged. But I thought your idea was my best possible out and had I thought of it instead of you, I would have done it anyway. 

The rest... I thought I had one shot at making this work. So I applied a very simple litmus test... would I do this for a friend? If the answer was yes, I would, I did it for C2. If not, I didn't.

The separating of finances is because I wouldn't do that for a friend. If, when she realized I was pulling back, she had acknowledge that she didn't want that and wanted to try to rectify the problem, I would have quietly closed those new accounts and she would have been none the wiser. 

But she didn't. She dug her heels in and dared me to carry on. So I did. I expected it to make her mad, but I wanted the "new me" to have some teeth. I didn't really change anything major. I was still going to pay my share of the bills, but I wanted her to see how it was going to be. I never even suggested that I was leaving and in fact, when I could get a word in, told her I WASN'T leaving.

I fell back on my friend "Ann." She and her husband have separate accounts and they couldn't happier. So I didn't think she would immediately leap to "Copper is leaving." Was I trying to get her attention? Yes I was. But I got it in a way I didn't expect.

If she ends it? I will be very disappointed and I'm sure I will grieve for a while. If it makes her happy, I will let her go, but I hope she doesn't leave and we can work this out. 

We had a bit of a reconciliation last night. Counseling is back on and I think she is feeling a little guilty for what she said.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This is what results in a marriage where there was never any full sexual openness and compatibility. From the beginning they only had sex 3-4 times per week, he traveled a lot and that is the only time when they had sex. I stated in that thread that my hubby and I were way more sexually active, we were intimate multiple times per day. He stated that they never did that, that he always wanted more but never brought it to her attention until recently.
> 
> This is what happens when the HD person does not state their desires early on. In the early stages of the relationship you gauge whether or not you are compatible, not after the mortgage and kids come along. He sprung this on her recently, she is the same from the beginning of their relationship and he is the one that changed.


I understand what you are saying. But if we could get back to 3-4 times a week, that would be fantastic! I wouldn't complain at all if the rest came with it... the intimacy and such.

Maybe I did cause all my problems, but I'm willing to meet somewhere in the middle if I get the chance.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> As an LD, Mrs. Copper never misrepresented herself, her frequency was 3-4 times per week. No touching the privates, and no dirty talk. Copper accepted this, then became frustrated as time passed. She didn't become aware of this discomfort until recently. She does not want to change. It is like when a guy comes on here and says, " my wife and I had all kinds of passionate sex multiple times a day before marriage, now she won't even give me oral sex". What would we say to this guy?
> 
> Bait and switch.


Give me this again, and all would be well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's not how it works - you still seem to think that things can get to what it was like 20 years ago. 

Likewise many of us would - yea, nice heavy duty making out in the graduate psych TA office cubicles too... And - I am smiling as we speak - the finest brandy my measly TA stipend could purchase used in off-label, ehem, non culinary applications. 

Unfortunately that plays into her script that this was 30 years ago when you were young blah blah and does not help build trust etc.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> That's not how it works - you still seem to think that things can get to what it was like 20 years ago.
> 
> Likewise many of us would - yea, nice heavy duty making out in the graduate psych TA office cubicles too... And - I am smiling as we speak - the finest brandy my measly TA stipend could purchase used in off-label, ehem, non culinary applications.
> 
> Unfortunately that plays into her script that this was 30 years ago when you were young blah blah and does not help build trust etc.


Yup.

Better to look at it like this:

What would you expect from a woman if you were single today? That is the baseline.

Subtract out some positive attributes due to the fact that you value the shared relationship with your children.

But if she can't even get close to what the average woman on the street could give, then you are selling yourself way short.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> That's not how it works - you still seem to think that things can get to what it was like 20 years ago.
> 
> Likewise many of us would - yea, nice heavy duty making out in the graduate psych TA office cubicles too... And - I am smiling as we speak - the finest brandy my measly TA stipend could purchase used in off-label, ehem, non culinary applications.
> 
> Unfortunately that plays into her script that this was 30 years ago when you were young blah blah and does not help build trust etc.


I understand. But if she were to come back to that, then I wouldn't complain and I couldn't be accused of bait and switch. 

I'm willing to compromise if she would just make me an offer!


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I understand. But if she were to come back to that, then I wouldn't complain and I couldn't be accused of bait and switch.
> 
> I'm willing to compromise if she would just make me an offer!


Copper- I get where your coming from in one sense but did it ever occur to you that SHE should be trying to figure out what it would take her to keep YOU?

You're so ready to compromise that she basically has to do almost nothing. 

She really needs you more than you need her.

Yes, I'm a d-ck, but I can't stand seeing a nice guy like you get walked all over like this then practically begging her to do it to you all over again.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> As an LD, Mrs. Copper never misrepresented herself, her frequency was 3-4 times per week. No touching the privates, and no dirty talk. Copper accepted this, then became frustrated as time passed. She didn't become aware of this discomfort until recently. She does not want to change. It is like when a guy comes on here and says, " my wife and I had all kinds of passionate sex multiple times a day before marriage, now she won't even give me oral sex". What would we say to this guy?
> 
> Bait and switch.


It is always interesting how we all read threads differently. I think she misrepresented herself big time. He was getting 3-4 and he was happy. First kid was born and it stopped. No gradual down shift, it completely stopped for 2 years. 


> I can only assume that she fulfilled her need to have a child because the sex just stopped for two years.


Her realization isn't recent because he says they talked about it decades ago. He mentions all of this started after the birth of his now adult daughter.


> We have talked this to death. After the birth of the our first,


So, when he wants it to go up from zero this is what happens.


> Over the years I have been accused (twice) of having an affair (I wasn't), sexually abusing her (I have no idea where this one came from, but stems from "duty sex") and being a pervert (for wanting to have sex more than 2 or 3 times a year)
> 
> 2-3 times a year is "normal" for couples that have been married as long as we have and at our age. Wanting to have sex more often is a clear sign that there is something not normal about me.


I agree there are 2 sides to every story, but short of CSA, rape or medical issues, obesity by manipulation doesn't work for me, there is very little I'd accept in his position.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I understand. But if she were to come back to that, then I wouldn't complain and I couldn't be accused of bait and switch.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm willing to compromise if she would just make me an offer!



Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh 

The whole idea of NOT compromising is based on the premise that if you have sex every X and she is fine with it, next thing she knows is you want X/2, X/4, and pretty soon every day. That's why there will be no compromise whatsoever. 

Only if she sticks to her guns the status quo is maintained.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is always interesting how we all read threads differently. I think she misrepresented herself big time. He was getting 3-4 and he was happy. First kid was born and it stopped. No gradual down shift, it completely stopped for 2 years.
> 
> Her realization isn't recent because he says they talked about it decades ago. He mentions all of this started after the birth of his now adult daughter.
> 
> ...


Sex naturally decreased right after the baby, my question is how did he make his desires known to her once the waiting period ended? Was he straightforward, or did he hope that she would know what he wanted by indirect means of communication?

My guess is that he gave hints and covert contracts to get what he wanted.

This is why I really want to get her side of the story without everyone projecting their experiences on to hers.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She could post more text than Stephen King and I doubt she would tell us much more than we already know. She's in what I should coin as "reactive LD" mode, not just LD but militant about it.

No way to counteract reactive LD...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

techmom said:


> Sex naturally decreased right after the baby, my question is how did he make his desires known to her once the waiting period ended? Was he straightforward, or did he hope that she would know what he wanted by indirect means of communication?
> 
> My guess is that he gave hints and covert contracts to get what he wanted.
> 
> This is why I really want to get her side of the story without everyone projecting their experiences on to hers.


I will own up to screwing up here. During the new parents class they warned over and over that the new mothers sex drive was going to plummet and we men were just going to have to understand that. 

And they were so very right. After the baby, she was an emotional wreck. Crying at the drop of a hat, complaining she was tired all the time etc. All the stuff you would expect. 

I tried to be the good and understanding husband. I didn't press and I helped out with the baby as much as I could. I did the late night feedings, for example, after she went back to work because I can cope better with the lack of sleep. 

I waited, and waited, and waited, looking for some sign that she was ready. But all she ever seemed to want to do is sleep. So I waited, and I waited some more. The class never said how long to wait, only that we had to be patient. I waited two years before I decided that was long enough. At no time she she seem even remotely interested in anything other than help with the baby and sleep. By then it was very difficult to reconnect and she said she didn't feel wanted after the baby. We never returned to how we were. 

So I think you can lay this one squarely at my feet. But I didn't know! I never got the manual from the hospital that said how to be a new parent so I was learning as I went. 

After the second one I didn't wait nearly as long, and I immediately began telling her how I was there when she was ready. I didn't want to go what we endured before. But something happened, and to this day I don't know what "broke."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tech,
I'll let Copper confirm this however I believe that after their second child, who is now 15, theor marriage became 'technically sexless' at 10 times a year or so. 

And that he has attempted to get her attention regarding the distress this is causing him for most of those 15 years. 

As for separating their accounts, I believe that was a very smart move. It was Copper for the first time demonstrating that he knew he would be ok in a post C2 world. 

Because - Copper can say what he wants - but deep down inside he knows that separating accounts after all these years is a GIANT red flag for C2. 

Anyway he got a reaction. And she is now going to attend counseling where a therapist will tell her that:
- frequently rejecting your H sexually
- limiting sex to at most once a month and often less 

Are a recipe for divorce. 

As for my view on all this. It hasn't changed a bit. C2 needs to have an open, honest conversation with Copper about why she's so opposed to having sex. 

Why the happiest year of their married life was when Copper totally stopped initiating. 

As for Copper he ought to stop initiating sex until he can figure out why C2 can barely tolerate H's touch for 20 minutes a month. 





techmom said:


> Sex naturally decreased right after the baby, my question is how did he make his desires known to her once the waiting period ended? Was he straightforward, or did he hope that she would know what he wanted by indirect means of communication?
> 
> My guess is that he gave hints and covert contracts to get what he wanted.
> 
> This is why I really want to get her side of the story without everyone projecting their experiences on to hers.


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Mrs. C's initial post screamed sexual aversion. She stated that he is always nagging for sex. For the LD, even when we are not asked for sex, the issue hangs in the air like the sword of Damocles. Is this the night he wants to talk about it or will he initiate? It is not right of some of us to do this but we do. 

And the longer it continues the harder it is to break the cycle.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

techmom said:


> Sex naturally decreased right after the baby,


According to him it stopped for 2 years, as he just restated above.

That is in no way a natural decrease at all. 


techmom said:


> Mrs. C's initial post screamed sexual aversion. She stated that he is always nagging for sex. For the LD, even when we are not asked for sex, the issue hangs in the air like the sword of Damocles. Is this the night he wants to talk about it or will he initiate? It is not right of some of us to do this but we do.
> 
> And the longer it continues the harder it is to break the cycle.


So, for two years, he did everything including not asking for sex at all. So, if what you say is true for her, he hurt himself by making her feel safe to stop sex all together.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

And, ironically, from what Coppertop said, his not asking for sex for two years made her feel not desirable anymore. 

So many layers upon layers of hurt, lack of communication, etc have contributed to tons of resentment in this marriage. 

Coppertop, it's good you take responsibility for your part. Both of you have things to work on. You can't go back to what you had and more importantly, you shouldn't want to. But you can go forward and build a new marriage - if both of you are willing to do the work needed. I know you are on board. I just hope C 2 will get and stay on board too. 

I am glad she agreed to counseling. That is at least one step forward.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Mrs. Coppertop, if you are for real and if your husband is for real, *for all I know you two could be the same person*...





pidge70 said:


> That would be my guess.


QFT.


----------



## Cedar (Apr 2, 2015)

CopperTop ,

No matter if it is one person or one ; It matters only regarding integrity and self respect .

i would give the same advise ...

Mr Copper top ; There is one very important thing you need to be aware off :

-the more you discuss sexual issues with Mrs C.; the less sex you will get .

I don't beleive IC will help alone ; MC is required too.

I am not sure about her past , scars , CSA , etc ...

but based on the situiation , i would say ; Using compromise is a a loosing situation ; it will lead nowhere .

what ever you do now in a compromising way is a loss


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## Cedar (Apr 2, 2015)

If don't want to leave , and can't leave and divorce , do the following :

YOU HAVE to CREATE A SHOCK WAVE ; I NEGATIVE SHOCK then a positive one .

-Sit with your wife and tell her calmly that you are done ,starting now you are seperated under the same roof , the case should be something other than sex issue , it should be respect , negligence , but THE PLAN WILL FAIL IF SEXUAL ISSUES ARE THE MAIN TOPIC ;DON"T raise your ability/desire to meet someone else for now ; 

- FOR 8-12 weeks ; you shouldn't approach her , not even talk to her except formal with respect ; SHE HAS TO REALIZE THAT YOU ARE SERIOUS ABOUT IT ,AND THAT YOU COULD LIVE THIS WAY FOREVER : MEANWHILE , find something to make yourself busy with ; a healthy hobby ; and you should show her that things are more and more into seperation ; even financial part ; start acting like you are single ; wash & iron your cloth ....

Go out without really explaining where you are going ;just say I am going out and will be back late ; if *urgently *needed Pls call me on mobile .

This should be a specimen of a divorce ; at the same time make sure that you *give love , time and emotions to your kid (s) ; and make sure that time spent with them without her is the best time *....

If in 6-8 weeks she realize it she will be yours , otherwise she will never be no matter how much efforts is done on IC/MC .


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Mrs. Coppertop, if you are for real and if your husband is for real, for all I know you two could be the same person


They've just been together so long they've mind merged. Hence, the write alike.  Instead of "There are two sides to every story" the thread should be titled, "SSDD".


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh
> 
> The whole idea of NOT compromising is based on the premise that if you have sex every X and she is fine with it, next thing she knows is you want X/2, X/4, and pretty soon every day. That's why there will be no compromise whatsoever.
> 
> Only if she sticks to her guns the status quo is maintained.


This is another light-bulb moment. I never thought of looking at it like this.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Science is your friend


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> We had a bit of a reconciliation last night. Counseling is back on and I think she is feeling a little guilty for what she said.


Good. You seem to gotten her attention, and pretty effectively. 

I was a bit worried there because you seemed to be regretful about rocking the boat when rocking the boat was what you set out to do. But maybe you are just a bit weary of her lashing out? Of her pushing back at you every step of the way? Understandably so, I would say.

But at the same time, a common reaction to feelings of hurt and vulnerability. The other posters are right that it is very poor form, inexcusable, really. But at the same time, it can be really, really hard to keep emotions in check when you feel like your familiar world is crumbling all around you. Not excusable, but understandable. And it sounds like she does realize she's crossed the line and wants to work on it with you.

I'm sure this won't be easy for either of you. But I hope you can both find a way to greater well-being happiness.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

when a person is miserable, spiteful, vindictive and manipulative, but there is CSA or other traumatic circumstances in their past, yes, allowances must be made for their trauma. A good deal of understanding, even sympathy can be given.

It still does not change the fact that their behavior is outrageous and should not be accepted. I know. I was with one for almost three years. Misery love company. Believe me, I showed her a ton of sympathy. A ton of understanding. A ton of giving her a pass on things. All it got me was MORE grief. My problem was not sympathy. It was accepting it for way too long.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

The more you give, the more they will take.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Good. You seem to gotten her attention, and pretty effectively.
> 
> I was a bit worried there because you seemed to be regretful about rocking the boat when rocking the boat was what you set out to do. But maybe you are just a bit weary of her lashing out? Of her pushing back at you every step of the way? Understandably so, I would say.
> 
> ...


I'm regretful that I hurt her. I guess I'm just a big softy because I don't enjoy upsetting people. I do what I think is right, but sometimes I don't enjoy it. This is one of those times. 

And yes... I do get tired of her getting so upset. The thing that I don't understand is, she isn't like this EXCEPT when it comes to her weight or our intimacy. In all other matters, we can sit down and have a calm, rational discussion. It's part of the reason I hate to even talk about this stuff with her because I never know if what I say is going to set her off. 

Her weight is a particularly tough minefield because sometimes she gets upset, and other times not. The sex thing usually goes badly if I press. If I mention it in passing, no problem, but I really dig at it, trying to understand our problem, that is when she gets all worked up.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> And, ironically, from what Coppertop said, his not asking for sex for two years made her feel not desirable anymore.


Yeah. I really messed up there. I did a mea culpa and I think we are past that now. That was a long time ago and I haven't repeated that mistake.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Tech,
> I'll let Copper confirm this however I believe that after their second child, who is now 15, theor marriage became 'technically sexless' at 10 times a year or so.


Close enough. 





MEM11363 said:


> And that he has attempted to get her attention regarding the distress this is causing him for most of those 15 years.
> 
> As for separating their accounts, I believe that was a very smart move. It was Copper for the first time demonstrating that he knew he would be ok in a post C2 world.
> 
> Because - Copper can say what he wants - but deep down inside he knows that separating accounts after all these years is a GIANT red flag for C2.


Yes... I knew. I didn't tell her I had done so (I manage the household finances) at first, and wouldn't have told her at all had she not challenged me. But she was digging in, so I dug in to. If she wanted a friend, then that is what she would get. And you would have to be GOOD friends to share a bank account.





MEM11363 said:


> Anyway he got a reaction. And she is now going to attend counseling where a therapist will tell her that:
> - frequently rejecting your H sexually
> - limiting sex to at most once a month and often less
> 
> ...


Haven't in 13 or 14 months now. The funny thing... I don't even miss it as much any more. So much turmoil and anguish. It dampens the desire I guess.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> They've just been together so long they've mind merged. Hence, the write alike.  Instead of "There are two sides to every story" the thread should be titled, "SSDD".


Maybe we are like those photos you see where people look like their pets.


----------



## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I would go for legal separation and get healthy.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> I am glad you followed always_alone's advice to give your wife what she wanted; living with you as a sexless roommate.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't think it is about the money. I took only about 20% of the funds. I think it was about the betrayal. She never even mentioned the money, it was all about I was getting ready to leave, that I was choosing sex over family, etc. Same song and dance... the only new element being the accusation of leaving. That was new, even though I never even mentioned the possibility of leaving, and stated clearly that I WASN'T leaving.





intheory said:


> And to reiterate, the 3 to 4 times a week frequency was at the beginning of Copper's marriage. *Copper did not change; his "wife" did.* I sense some "blame the victim" starting here. Then when it was established that they had sex 3-4 times a week at the beginning of the marriage; but post-partum it fell off; the goalposts moved a little; now he needs to be understanding about that. Well, HE HAS BEEN. For 20 frickin' years.
> 
> Sorry you got "caught"  posting on TAM, Copper. Please do what it takes to regain your privacy and using this place to blow off steam.
> 
> Are you gonna come to your wife's defense over the stuff I just said? Please don't bother. Unless, in some weird way; it makes YOU feel better.


She was totally out of line calling everyone out, and I have told her so. It is one thing to do it with me, when I know she doesn't really mean it and it is just anger and hurt talking. But lashing out at others? That's not acceptable. 

At least she knows it and I can tell she is feeling guilty about it, just like she does when she does the same thing to me.

Again, my apologies to everyone.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

we're just people on the internet. you're the one that has to live with it. her post was offensive because of what it reveals about her attitude toward you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> we're just people on the internet. you're the one that has to live with it. her post was offensive because of what it reveals about her attitude toward you.


Contempt mixed with a bit of anger and fear...but mostly contempt.

And Coppertop, TBH, I am just not sure what you do with that in the long term, because that looks nothing like the "love, honor and cherish" that you both signed up for. 

It is the complete opposite and that's not marriage. Sorry.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All,

It's great that we want to help Copper.

It's also true that for many posters, C2 is a generalized Avatar or proxy for the classic LD spouse that you are married to and angry with. 

That makes her an inviting target. But before we continue bashing her lets keep in mind that there is NO symmetry here. If they part ways, C2 is going to be alone. Copper is going to quickly re-partner. 

*He's anxious. She's terrified. 

That's why her behavior is so aggressive. It's why her post was so extreme. 
*
All that said, I doubt there's a solution that results in both Copper and C2 being happy. 

She appears to have a strong sexual aversion. That type issue might be fixable at 25, but not so much at 50. 

And she didn't dig this hole alone, Copper helped. 





CopperTop said:


> Close enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

"He's anxious. She's terrified. 

That's why her behavior is so aggressive. It's why her post was so extreme."

You may be right about that MEM, in fact i'm sure you are. The problem i have with showing any sympathy in this particular situation is that this appears to go back many years of abuse, not just since he separated accounts, or his recent attempts at distancing himself.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There's a massive difference between unloving behavior and abusive behavior. 

If Copper really felt abused, he should have filed. 

Emotional abuse is very subjective. The only person who ought to make such a determination is the recipient of that behavior. 

And their recourse is limited to:
- demanding MC
- filing divorce

Now it's totally different if someone his physically abusing you or making terroristic threats. 

But that's not the case here. 

Let's not confuse incompatibility with abuse. 




jorgegene said:


> "He's anxious. She's terrified.
> 
> That's why her behavior is so aggressive. It's why her post was so extreme."
> 
> You may be right about that MEM, in fact i'm sure you are. The problem i have with showing any sympathy in this particular situation is that this appears to go back many years of abuse, not just since he separated accounts, or his recent attempts at distancing himself.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Congrats MEM on your new Mod status!

I think your assessments in CT's threads have been on the money. 

I haven't contributed much on them and hope I haven't been bashing C2. I am truly sympathetic and hope that the 2 of them can get their marriage straightened out and working again. 

Bottom line though is that C2 needs gets herself in IC and get to work on herself. Sadly, she is not long for this world otherwise. And on top of her other issues, being alone will likely speed her along.



MEM11363 said:


> All,
> 
> It's great that we want to help Copper.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Tron,
Thank you. 

I agree that C2 deeply needs IC. 



Tron said:


> Congrats MEM on your new Mod status!
> 
> I think your assessments in CT's threads have been on the money.
> 
> ...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I see the fear, but not in the way some of you do. Her fear comes from losing control of her husband. You know, the same person who just called all of the people and her husband perverts for not agreeing with her belief in sex.

Her outburst was less for us and more for CT. He's right back to blaming himself, defending her and saying he did the betraying.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> There's a massive difference between unloving behavior and abusive behavior.
> 
> If Copper really felt abused, he should have filed.
> 
> ...


Threatening him with taking him to the cleaners, and taking away his kids among a number of other things IS abuse in my book. If it were isolated incidents, you could say "well, everyone loses it and says nasty stuff once in a while", but I get the strong impression these weren't isolated incidents, but a continual pattern.

I'm i'm interpreting the above correctly, That's abuse.

You are right though, that only he should have the right to decide what he wants to do. we're only opinions.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> Threatening him with taking him to the cleaners, and taking away his kids among a number of other things IS abuse in my book. If it were isolated incidents, you could say "well, everyone loses it and says nasty stuff once in a while", but I get the strong impression these weren't isolated incidents, but a continual pattern.
> 
> I'm i'm interpreting the above correctly, That's abuse.
> 
> You are right though, that only he should have the right to decide what he wants to do. we're only opinions.


'IF' i'm right


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Maybe we are like those photos you see where people look like their pets.


Unless you show actual photos, we'll have to use our imagination.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Following up on what MEM said... 

I don't think I'm abused. She is only this way on occasion, almost exclusively when I am poking at a sore spot. If she were this way all the time I would have left long ago. But she's not. I think it is stress related. As I wrote this I realized the only other time she acted like this and it wasn't related to our sex lives, or her weight (though her weight causes much less violent reactions) was when she was under immense stress at work. And I do mean immense... She was very, very touchy then too... about everything.

I know when I say this that MEM will point to is as part of my "Stockholm Syndrome," but in some ways I bring this on myself. If I wouldn't keep digging at spots that I know are going to get this reaction, I wouldn't get this reaction. So really, who's fault is it? From her point of view, she would say its mine. 

And yes... I am anxious. I don't want to thrown away 26 years of togetherness if I can save it, nor do I want to go back into the dating pool at 52. I couldn't get dates at 22, why would I be able to do better at 52? I would miss my family and all my plans for the future would be in shambles. Could I recover? Probably. But the thought of starting again, trying to build a finical nest egg and creating the strong emotional bonds with another person is a daunting task.

I'm hoping that this ground shaking tsunami that we are in will finally be the thing that washes us clean of our past indiscretions and we can start again. C2 seems resigned at the moment, like all the fight has gone out of her.

I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad, but I'm hoping for good. I expected an arctic wind this weekend, but it wasn't too bad. She has been civil to me and I to her. We even laughed some. 

Hopefully she will carry through and we can get counseling. I am pinning all my hopes on that. I don't even care over much about the outcome. If the good doctor can convince me that I'm happy as I am, then that's still a win for me.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

CopperTop said:


> I know when I say this that MEM will point to is as part of my "Stockholm Syndrome," but in some ways I bring this on myself. If I wouldn't keep digging at spots that I know are going to get this reaction, I wouldn't get this reaction. So really, who's fault is it? From her point of view, she would say its mine.


I get this, because I'm the same way. I have not deserved the completely awful things he's said to me and him putting his hands on me, but I DO take responsibility for starting nearly every single fight because I can't control my tongue. It's the number one thing I talk with my IC about these days, and it is helping and I'm getting better. (We're still splitting up though because he's a complete jackazz....I'm just trying very very hard to control my temper in the process.)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't care about dates or love at 58 - I care about a pair of large cats, my bicycle, my camera gear, and my plentiful buddies. And my kids.

And getting even.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> And yes... I am anxious. I don't want to thrown away 26 years of togetherness if I can save it, nor do I want to go back into the dating pool at 52. I couldn't get dates at 22, why would I be able to do better at 52? I would miss my family and all my plans for the future would be in shambles. Could I recover? Probably. But the thought of starting again, trying to build a finical nest egg and creating the strong emotional bonds with another person is a daunting task.
> .


Not surprisingly, I'm going to argue a bit for the "get out" strategy.

I think you would be very surprised at how much better you could do in the dating pool at 52 compared to 22. I don't think the world is drowning in smart, successful, unattached late middle aged men who are in reasonably good shape physically. You could date a huge age range from 30s to 60s if you were inclined-- much bigger range of women than your 22 year old self. Women who are mature and know what they want. Doesn't that sound appealing? 

26 year of togetherness-- in the past. Look at present and forward.

Miss your family: Why would this be? You would still see your kids. You will still be their father.

Financially: keep your money, she keeps hers. 

Emotional bonds with another: I bet you would create emotional bonds very quickly (probably too quickly) if you got into any half normal relationship at this point. You are starved for connection and she shows no signs of delivering it.

I don't expect that you will agree with anything I've said, but maybe you can at least ask yourself why you are so quick to dismiss any thought that you could live happily without your wife. Is that healthy?


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Following up on what MEM said...
> 
> I don't think I'm abused. She is only this way on occasion, almost exclusively when I am poking at a sore spot. If she were this way all the time I would have left long ago. But she's not. I think it is stress related. As I wrote this I realized the only other time she acted like this and it wasn't related to our sex lives, or her weight (though her weight causes much less violent reactions) was when she was under immense stress at work. And I do mean immense... She was very, very touchy then too... about everything.
> 
> ...


In due respect coppertop, maybe there is abuse, maybe there isn't. No one knows your situation. It is important to remember, we here perceive maybe 5-10% of what is really going on.

However then I wouldn't use the term 'stockholm syndrome' if you really feel you aren't abused.
.
stockholm syndrome is by definition a term for those who love their abusers

Stockholm Syndrome: The Psychological Mystery of Loving an Abuser, Page 1


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know when I say this that MEM will point to is as part of my "Stockholm Syndrome," but in some ways I bring this on myself. If I wouldn't keep digging at spots that I know are going to get this reaction, I wouldn't get this reaction. So really, who's fault is it? From her point of view, she would say its mine.


So what you're saying is that you don't feel you have a right to discuss with her where your needs aren't being met in this marriage...Sorry CT, I'm not buying it.

And of course from her point of view it is much easier to say that it is your fault. If she can get away with it, she doesn't have to look at herself in the mirror or put forth any effort changing.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Following up on what MEM said...
> 
> 
> And yes... I am anxious. I don't want to thrown away 26 years of togetherness if I can save it, nor do I want to go back into the dating pool at 52. I couldn't get dates at 22, why would I be able to do better at 52? .


Dating at 52 might be much more interesting than at 22. People this age are much more experience, they have their own luggage, and they do know now what matters to them, what does not, what's is important, what is deal breaker. Not mentioning having kds is out of picture, and they can focus all on themselves, no disruptions, no sleepless nights, no being stuck at home with no babysitter.

Don't get into that casket yet, there is still time to rock.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

jorgegene said:


> However then I wouldn't use the term 'stockholm syndrome' if you really feel you aren't abused.
> .
> stockholm syndrome is by definition a term for those who love their abusers.


I was just quoting MEM. I really don't feel abused. 

Do I think she overreacts sometimes? Oh yes, very much so. But that doesn't make her abusive.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't expect that you will agree with anything I've said, but maybe you can at least ask yourself why you are so quick to dismiss any thought that you could live happily without your wife. Is that healthy?


It's not that I don't think I can... I just want to give this a fair go. It's just hard for me to let go I guess. I want to be sure I'm doing the right thing and not have any regrets. If I were to bail now, I KNOW I would feel like I abandoned her. Maybe it is because I still care, but I don't want to feel guilty if I pull the trigger. I want to feel justified. And so long as there is a chance, I have to see it through.

She's a good person... she really is. I want her get past this and I want to help her. If, after counseling, we are in the same spot or worse, I may consider leaving. But for now, I just can't bring myself to leave.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> Emotional abuse is very subjective. The only person who ought to make such a determination is the recipient of that behavior.


 Sorry have to disagree. Once upon a time, this exact logic applied to physical abuse. People were counseled to "save their marriage" because it wasn't "that bad." No, I do not know if she is abusive, just arguing all abuse is subjective and it can't always be left up to the abused to determine the outcome.

He only hit me once. 
It really isn't that bad.
It only happens once in awhile.
It is my fault.

I can go get multiple sentences of CT saying similar things in both threads. If this was physical, everyone would be screaming "GET OUT." If anything, emotional abuse leads to subjective observations from outsiders.


Some people need to learn or be shown what actual abuse is to make a determination. Sometimes, the decision needs to be taken out of their hands. This is why many states will charge a person, regardless of the abused person backing out later.


----------



## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> However then I wouldn't use the term 'stockholm syndrome' if you really feel you aren't abused.
> .
> stockholm syndrome is by definition a term for those who love their abusers


Actually he my be correct. He's been getting his azz kicked for over 20 years and by all indications, he now seems to love it.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> It's not that I don't think I can... I just want to give this a fair go. It's just hard for me to let go I guess. I want to be sure I'm doing the right thing and not have any regrets.


A fair go? Twenty years seems like a fair go to me.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Tron said:


> So what you're saying is that you don't feel you have a right to discuss with her where your needs aren't being met in this marriage...Sorry CT, I'm not buying it.


I think this is an important thought, and a good way of expressing it. 

Copper, you keep saying that you feel selfish for poking her sore spots. But it isn't selfishness to have your own needs and desires.

It would selfish to assert your needs without any consideration for your wife's, and it would be selfish if only you were the one getting your needs met. But it isn't selfish to have needs or to want to address them in your marriage.

Even if it causes her pain to face them.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> TIt is time for him to GROW UP and stop acting like a teenager. We are in our 50’s… nobody has sex several times a week at our age, much less every day, and I believe that those that say they do say that only to impress their friends.


We're in our sixties, and have no need to impress anyone. You can fill in the rest.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I think this is an important thought, and a good way of expressing it.
> 
> Copper, you keep saying that you feel selfish for poking her sore spots. But it isn't selfishness to have your own needs and desires.
> 
> ...


Maybe selfish isn't the right word. 

I agree... we should be able to come to some reasonable compromise. I don't feel like I am asking for too much, but I do feel bad for intentionally upsetting her. 

I don't enjoy hurting people, and I know this subject upsets her, so I am kind of caught in a jam. I can bury my wants and desires, or I can upset my spouse. 

It's not a pleasant spot to be in.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> And yes... I am anxious. I don't want to thrown away 26 years of togetherness if I can save it, nor do I want to go back into the dating pool at 52. I couldn't get dates at 22, why would I be able to do better at 52? I would miss my family and all my plans for the future would be in shambles. Could I recover? Probably. But the thought of starting again, trying to build a finical nest egg and creating the strong emotional bonds with another person is a daunting task.


You will be in a MUCH better dating position at 52 than at 22. Most 22-year-old men are the scum at the bottom of the dating pool. At this point, you would probably be able to land a very pretty 35 year old.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I don't enjoy hurting people, and I know this subject upsets her, so I am kind of caught in a jam. I can bury my wants and desires, or I can upset my spouse.



I do offer private lessons in this very subject 

Seriously, you should snap out of this "upset my spouse" mode and into a more equitable position. All is fair in love and war as the dude said.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

CT, I understand the need to have no regrets. My friend slogged through this same thought process when trying to decide whether to divorce her husband. You want to leave no stone unturned. Very admirable.

I must have read your wife's post a thousand times. She sounds just like your mother. There was not one loving thing she said about you. I could feel the vitriol spewing from her mouth. I was embarrassed reading it.

I'm gonna lay it down and be brutally honest. Please know I mean zero disrespect. I also speak from personal experience.

Unless and until she loses that weight, she will never, ever be happy or content in life. That is the root core, IMO.

RE: dating. Oh honey, you are in the prime target audience! Trust me on this.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Let me start out by saying there is no need to apologize. I have hide as tough as a crocodile skin, so I am not easily upset or offended and I appreciate straight talking. Just tell me what you believe and I can agree or disagree, but at least I know where you stand. So please, always feel free to speak your mind.





intheory said:


> Well, she snooped into your computer when she had a chance while your back was turned, so to speak.
> 
> Used your account to take a swing at anyone who dared to support you; while saying pernicious things about you and your sexuality.


Yep... and she was totally out of line for taking out her anger with me on everyone here. As far as the snooping... that's a bit of a harder sell. She asked to use my PC, and I gave her permission. The link to this site was right there on Google home page. This would be the equivalent of me leaving something that would offend her lying out in plain sight. 

Having her go off on everyone here was completely her bad. But I share the blame in her finding out I was here in the first place.





intheory said:


> You are contrite again. Your tail is tucked between your legs and you are cowering. So glad that there wasn't an "Arctic wind" this weekend. There actually should have been an Arctic wind, Copper; gusting from you to her.


Not as much as you think, I bet. I haven't apologized for anything I said here, nor for coming here. I also made it known she was in the wrong for what she did. I tried to convince her to come back here and stand up for what she believes, but I don't think she will. She apologized to me for what she said and I think she is embarrassed by her outburst. 

That is usually how these things go. Maybe it is a woman thing because my (adult) daughter does the same thing. C2 will say something spiteful, then apologize for it later. I've learned to just let it roll off of me. Remember the crocodile hide comment above?





intheory said:


> You have another thread going about how she had all her paperwork spread out regarding her posthumous wishes/arrangements; timed so that you would walk in on her after work. And she told you she has to get her affairs in order (because she's probably not going to live long).
> 
> Of course that's going to make you want to not step on her toes, or push her, or stand up for yourself.
> 
> Note: she seems to not be planning to exercise or change her diet. If she was, wouldn't she be a bit more hopeful about her future?? Even just a little?


Yes, you would think. Maybe she is being manipulative. That would explain why she does the things she does sometimes. That bag of office papers is still sitting where she left it and she hasn't touched it. 

This is another example of her procrastination and it sometimes drives me batty. If you weren't going to go through the stuff, why did you bring it home? If you are going to go through the stuff, what are you waiting on? 

Since she brought the pile home I have suggested a couple of times that she go through it and toss what she is going to toss, and take the rest back to work. But it's always "tomorrow" or "I'll do it later." All the while that bag of papers sitting in the floor mocks me. I want to "put it away" so bad sometimes I can barely stand it. 

But for the last week or so, she has done better on her diet. Not much exercise, as per her doctors orders, but she is really trying now. And its working. She hasn't retracted her statement about she is going to kick the bucket any day now, but maybe she is feeling better about the future.





intheory said:


> If you hang in there this should all be over in a couple of years, I guess. Sad for her. And probably sad for you; as I expect you will blame yourself for the rest of your life.
> 
> PLEASE go to IC for yourself Copper, (not the over-the-phone type setup). If you can't do that; get books on co-dependency; at least do that as a start.
> 
> If I sound harsh, I apologize. I wish you and your kids the best.


Thank you for concern. I mean that sincerely. Counseling is on the table and I asked last night if she had done any research on counselors in our area. Of course she hasn't. She was too busy, etc. I'm going to ask her every evening if she has selected one so she can't put this off because I know in my heart, she will try. I'm giving her this week to select the one she would prefer to attend, but if she doesn't, then I'm picking one. 

This is my last, best, hope to sort this mess out. I've come this far and I'm not backing off now. I don't think she can be much more upset with me than she has been, so I might as well go for broke.


----------



## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

technovelist said:


> You will be in a MUCH better dating position at 52 than at 22. Most 22-year-old men are the scum at the bottom of the dating pool. At this point, you would probably be able to land a very pretty 35 year old.





lucy999 said:


> I'm gonna lay it down and be brutally honest. Please know I mean zero disrespect. I also speak from personal experience.
> 
> Unless and until she loses that weight, she will never, ever be happy or content in life. That is the root core, IMO.
> 
> RE: dating. Oh honey, you are in the prime target audience! Trust me on this.


First, thank you both for the encouraging words about my future prospects. I'm not debating your point of view because I don't have the first clue... but it seems to me all the "good ones" would already taken. Not married necessarily, but in a committed relationship. Granted I don't know just gobs of people, but every person I know that isn't "young" is either married or committed to someone. 

I know if I were to latch onto someone I would hold on tight and do everything possible to make her mine. Wouldn't most guys be the same?

Ms. Lucy... I understand your point on C2's weight. I KNOW it bothers her a lot. I just don't know what to do about it to help her. I think she would feel so much better about herself, and feel better too, if she would/could drop 150 pounds. 

She is really trying at the moment, and it is working. I don't know if it because of everything we are going through or if her last warning finally got her attention. But this is the most dedication I have seen from her on this issue in a long time.

I want so badly to hold her and encourage her, and try to build her up for her success, but I'm afraid if I do that now we will fall back into the same dynamic that I just gave my all to get us out of. 

Relationships are HARD!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> I do offer private lessons in this very subject


John... never change. Your avatar is PERFECT for you.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

No, it's not a "'woman' thing" -- we don't all act the way she does (I'm shaking my head at the idea you think she represents all women) -- it's totally a "'her' thing" and your adult daughter has picked it up from her mom. Unfortunately.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Copper,

All your behavior from the start has been predicated on the belief that if the marriage ends - you will be alone. 

The foundation for a marital Stockholm is either:
- financial destruction (which isn't the case for you) or
- loss of companionship 

I can't change your core beliefs. But YOU need to attend IC to get help with this. 





CopperTop said:


> Let me start out by saying there is no need to apologize. I have hide as tough as a crocodile skin, so I am not easily upset or offended and I appreciate straight talking. Just tell me what you believe and I can agree or disagree, but at least I know where you stand. So please, always feel free to speak your mind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> All your behavior from the start has been predicated on the belief that if the marriage ends - you will be alone.
> 
> ...


There is some of that, I admit. But there is also the deep feeling that if I give it up, I'm a failure. I can't even articulate why I feel that way. My intellect knows its not true, but that sinking feeling in the pit of the stomach when I think about it says something different. 

BUT... I'm hardening myself to the fact that if the marriage counseling/sex therapy doesn't fix this, if we can't reach some mutually acceptable compromise, then I'm disengaging. Once I do that, then I think I can take the next step, what ever that might be.

I'm stubborn I guess, and it takes me a long time to give up on something I want.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Openminded said:


> No, it's not a "'woman' thing" -- we don't all act the way she does (I'm shaking my head at the idea you think she represents all women) -- it's totally a "'her' thing" and your adult daughter has picked it up from her mom. Unfortunately.


I know she doesn't represent all women... or the human race would be extinct by now. 

I just don't understand WHY she does what she does sometimes. And to be honest, I don't think she does either. Or if she does, she is keeping it to herself.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> There is some of that, I admit. But there is also the deep feeling that if I give it up, I'm a failure. I can't even articulate why I feel that way. My intellect knows its not true, but that sinking feeling in the pit of the stomach when I think about it says something different.


What I have noticed in your writings, Copper, is that you are extremely concerned with how others see you.

Even when C2 wrote her little rant that started this second thread, you seemed not to be concerned about yourself but unusually focused on what we people on the boards would think of you and your wife after that little missive.

I think this is a theme you could address in IC. Your self-worth appears to be tied up in what others think about / say about you. We all have this characteristic to some degree. But I think a higher-than-average concern about "what others think" may be one of the stumbling blocks in you making the choices you have to make.

Throughout this thread, you have seemed much more comfortable to suffer in silence than to face the perceived dangers of "airing your dirty linens."

What we see from your postings is a thoughtful, articulate, caring person. We see that as something that will remain in place whether or not you stay in an emotionally abusive relationship. For some reason, you think that you will be publicly branded as a loser if you push your marriage to the brink of dissolution. That is not the actual truth, but it is how you perceive it.

For now, the pain of carrying your own cross is substantial. But the idea of having others learn about your problems or "failings" is wholly unacceptable to you. It seems you derive your self-esteem from what others think of you. The pain of losing that external validation is seen to be greater that comes with sucking it up and living in a sub-standard marital relationship.

You need individual counseling to dig towards this truth, understand why this is the case for you and develop a framework for attributing the proper weight to external validation in charting your course of action.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know she doesn't represent all women... or the human race would be extinct by now.
> 
> I just don't understand WHY she does what she does sometimes. And to be honest, I don't think she does either. Or if she does, she is keeping it to herself.


"She" doesn't understand either. In order to gain understanding and insight, one must first SEE the issues clearly. She refuses to do that. Because if she did do that, she would have to SEE her responsibility, her selfishness, and her self deceit. Those are all bad things she wishes to avoid. Hence, her lack of understanding.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> There is some of that, I admit. But there is also the deep feeling that if I give it up, I'm a failure. I can't even articulate why I feel that way.* My intellect* knows its not true, but *that sinking feeling* in the pit of the stomach when I think about it says something different.


Bridging this gap is what mindfulness and CBT therapy are FOR. To help you operate from your front brain instead of your hind brain to forge the life you want for yourself.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> What I have noticed in your writings, Copper, is that you are extremely concerned with how others see you.
> 
> Even when C2 wrote her little rant that started this second thread, you seemed not to be concerned about yourself but unusually focused on what we people on the boards would think of you and your wife after that little missive.


I care more about how I see myself. I have certain things that I believe are right and true and I don't wish to invalidate them by doing things against them. It's a quirk of mine perhaps, but I don't feel that I can express my opinion to others if I can't live by the same standards I profess. 

The thing about her rant was I did feel bad that through my carelessness others had to experience her wrath. That wasn't right. If she had a beef with me, she should have brought it to me and not the good folk here that are just trying to help.




MarriedTex said:


> I think this is a theme you could address in IC. Your self-worth appears to be tied up in what others think about / say about you. We all have this characteristic to some degree. But I think a higher-than-average concern about "what others think" may be one of the stumbling blocks in you making the choices you have to make.
> 
> Throughout this thread, you have seemed much more comfortable to suffer in silence than to face the perceived dangers of "airing your dirty linens."


That was her talking, not me. I have no problem talking about this subject with her, or anyone else, in a helpful environ, such as counseling or on this board. I would love to be able to dig to the bottom of this and make it better. 

I'm quite sure I am going to find out I have some work to do on myself if I can ever get her to open up. But getting her to open up is the hard part. I'm ready and willing to accept the challenges of my imperfections.





MarriedTex said:


> What we see from your postings is a thoughtful, articulate, caring person. We see that as something that will remain in place whether or not you stay in an emotionally abusive relationship. For some reason, you think that you will be publicly branded as a loser if you push your marriage to the brink of dissolution. That is not the actual truth, but it is how you perceive it.


Perhaps not publicly, but within myself, yes. That's true. I don't understand why I feel this way either. I guess because I feel like there is always one more thing to try, another option I haven't explored. 

I hate giving up, on anything. I just keep picking away at problems until I solve them, one way or another. And yes, sometimes, the solution to a problem is to scrap what you have been doing, and do something different. 

I'm trying to convince myself that if this marriage counseling that we have agreed to attend fails, it's time to scrap and move on. I'm not there yet, but I'm working on it.





MarriedTex said:


> For now, the pain of carrying your own cross is substantial. But the idea of having others learn about your problems or "failings" is wholly unacceptable to you. It seems you derive your self-esteem from what others think of you. The pain of losing that external validation is seen to be greater that comes with sucking it up and living in a sub-standard marital relationship.
> 
> You need individual counseling to dig towards this truth, understand why this is the case for you and develop a framework for attributing the proper weight to external validation in charting your course of action.


I acknowledge a lot of truth in this statement. In this case, two people in particular. My two kids, and especially my son. I worry, a lot, how my leaving will affect him.

To have him come to me (if he were to do so) and say, "You left us over SEX?" would be a stake right through my heart. But how do you know if that would happen until you do it? That scares the bejeebers out of me. Mix in all my other concerns, and the fact that I still want to make this work with C2, and it become hard to just up stakes and leave.

Thank you for the kind and thoughtful words though. I do appreciate them greatly.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know she doesn't represent all women... or the human race would be extinct by now.
> 
> I just don't understand WHY she does what she does sometimes. And to be honest, I don't think she does either. Or if she does, she is keeping it to herself.


Some women are emotionally unstable. She may be one. 

What's keeping you there, IMO, is fear -- not stubbornness. Many people stay because they're afraid of the unknown. I divorced after a 45 year marriage. Never for a moment did I feel I wouldn't thrive and be happy after my divorce. Maybe you won't have to divorce her. Perhaps she'll change and things will be good. But if she doesn't change and things are not good, never doubt you can thrive and be happy.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

I have a quick question.

C2 is trying to draw me back into where we were. I have moved a bit in that direction, but I don't know if I should move more. 

Do I continue to be "just her friend" or do I do more? 

I have my win, so to speak, in that she has agreed to attend counseling. I have always believed that you reward good behavior and ignore/discourage bad behavior. 

Things are sort of limping along right now and we have reached a shaky truce. I would like to make her feel more comfortable with where we are (wherever that might be) so she will be more willing to participate in the process. But I don't want her to think this problem has gone away.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Some women are emotionally unstable. She may be one.
> 
> What's keeping you there, IMO, is fear -- not stubbornness. Many people stay because they're afraid of the unknown. I divorced after a 45 year marriage. Never for a moment did I feel I wouldn't thrive and be happy after my divorce. Maybe you won't have to divorce her. Perhaps she'll change and things will be good. But if she doesn't change and things are not good, never doubt you can thrive and be happy.


There is fear. Fear that I will leave and then feel guilty for doing so because I haven't given it my all. I have to exhaust every possible option before I can let it go. I want this marriage to work.

This is our first attempt to get through this with professional help. If this doesn't work? Then I don't know. I think I will be out of ideas. I'm going into this with the attitude that our marriage can be saved if we want it to be. But if the counselor throws up his or her hands and says there is no hope? Then I will have some hard thinking to do.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> I have a quick question.
> 
> C2 is trying to draw me back into where we were. I have moved a bit in that direction, but I don't know if I should move more.
> 
> ...


Of course she wants to go back to the way it was before. And, I'm guessing, part of you does too.

It strikes me as a mistake to see an agreement to go to counseling a "win". Not only because this is not a game or a competition with winners and losers, but also because an agreement like this isn't worth much. Has she even attended a session yet?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Of course she wants to go back to the way it was before. And, I'm guessing, part of you does too.
> 
> It strikes me as a mistake to see an agreement to go to counseling a "win". Not only because this is not a game or a competition with winners and losers, but also because an agreement like this isn't worth much. Has she even attended a session yet?


I don't see it as a game of winner and loser either, but up until now I had never gotten her to agree to attend counseling. Win was just a way to express that I had gotten something I have been lobbying for for a long time.

I would like to get past the acrimonious position we are in, yes. It isn't exactly pleasant in the Coppertop household at the moment. So if I could dial her bitterness back a little by giving her some support, and still move forward, I would like to do that.

No... she hasn't even picked a counselor. I have, but she hasn't. I expected this since this is typical for her when she doesn't want to do something. Delay, delay, prevaricate, delay. I'm still pushing, gently, for her to do what she agreed to do but no progress so far. What I expect to happen is she won't follow through on picking one, I will offer my suggestion, she will accept it, but then will beat me over the head with it at some later date. 

So do I read you correctly if I were to state you think I should continue with what I'm doing and not try to pull her closer to me and offer more emotional support?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You know she isn't going to make an appointment with a counselor. Just schedule the dang appointment and tell her when to be there. I have my doubts she will show up though. If not, go yourself.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, keep doing what you were doing at least until you've both had a few counseling sessions. Do not offer more emotional support etc. until an agreed change has actually happened, else you may have to start over if she takes that as reason to revert to status quo.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

karole said:


> You know she isn't going to make an appointment with a counselor. Just schedule the dang appointment and tell her when to be there. I have my doubts she will show up though. If not, go yourself.


I know. But if I do as you suggest she will use THAT as the excuse to not attend. I picked a day/time that isn't good for her.

"I WOULD have done it if I had just been patient! You said the fifteenth and it's not the fifteenth yet! See! You are never satisfied! Nothing I ever do is good enough!" I know what she is going to say before she does. I don't want to give her the excuse. 

This problem has been going on for so long, another week won't make any difference.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

My thoughts:

Continue forward with the plan. It is working, why would you stop now ? Tell her things will remain as is until you see that she is giving it her all in counseling - meaning she attends, fully participates, and does all the assignments as required - and shows she is committed to working on the issues with you. You and the counselor should discuss this after counseling starts and get his/her opinion on it. Until suggested otherwise by the counselor, continue on.

You gave her a date for picking the counselor, if she does not have one by then, then you set up an appointment with the one you found. 

Say what you mean, do what you say, and follow through, especially if it is working. The only time to change course is if it is not taking you where you want to go.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> Continue forward with the plan. It is working, why would you stop now ? Tell her things will remain as is until you see that she is giving it her all in counseling - meaning she attends, fully participates, and does all the assignments as required - and shows she is committed to working on the issues with you. You and the counselor should discuss this after counseling starts and get his/her opinion on it. Until suggested otherwise by the counselor, continue on.
> 
> ...


Okay. I'm a say what you mean, mean what you say kind of guy. But being the eternal optimist here, I have to change at some point. I have to move closer to her otherwise I'M the one pushing HER away. 

How do I know when to do that change over? How do I know she has "changed" and isn't just trying to put us back where we were?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I know. But if I do as you suggest she will use THAT as the excuse to not attend. I picked a day/time that isn't good for her.
> 
> "I WOULD have done it if I had just been patient! You said the fifteenth and it's not the fifteenth yet! See! You are never satisfied! Nothing I ever do is good enough!" I know what she is going to say before she does. I don't want to give her the excuse.
> 
> This problem has been going on for so long, another week won't make any difference.


Does she stamp her feet and hold her breath too?
You are a parent right? Have you never told your kids you expect XYZ to be completed by a/bc?

Tell her she needs to have an appointment scheduled, not completed by scheduled, by this time next week. The appointment needs to be completed within two weeks.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> Does she stamp her feet and hold her breath too?
> You are a parent right? Have you never told your kids you expect XYZ to be completed by a/bc?
> 
> Tell her she needs to have an appointment scheduled, not completed by scheduled, by this time next week. The appointment needs to be completed within two weeks.


That's the plan. She agreed to have it done by the 15th of April. It's not there yet, which is why I'm still waiting. My statement was in response to "Why are you waiting? Just do it because she won't!"


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. I'm a say what you mean, mean what you say kind of guy. But being the eternal optimist here, I have to change at some point. I have to move closer to her otherwise I'M the one pushing HER away.
> 
> *How do I know when to do that change over? How do I know she has "changed" and isn't just trying to put us back where we were*?


You really don't understand what's going on with your wife at all.

This is why you need IC.

To answer your question, when your wife appears to be getting healthy, eating better, losing weight, paying attention to your needs as well as her health, you will know she IS changing.

This will take MONTHS, possibly a year of good therapy. Therapy she doesn't want. Therapy that she will half heartedly participate in just to get you off her back. This time next year you will still be here, still wondering what to do to fix your marriage, unless YOU get into therapy and work on yourself.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> I have a quick question.
> 
> C2 is trying to draw me back into where we were. I have moved a bit in that direction, but I don't know if I should move more.
> 
> ...


Continuing to be "just her friend" is a really bad idea, in my opinion. You never want to be in the friendzone. Google it to find out why.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> Okay. I'm a say what you mean, mean what you say kind of guy. But being the eternal optimist here, I have to change at some point. I have to move closer to her otherwise I'M the one pushing HER away.
> 
> How do I know when to do that change over? How do I know she has "changed" and isn't just trying to put us back where we were?


With a good counselors help, and you working on yourself, you will know!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think in some ways it's as simple as she wants a friend, you want a wife. That's it. Now if you both wanted the same thing there's a ton of work to do, but since you don't i doubt you're going to accomplish anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

She has done nothing but talk so far. 

I would not do anything until she shows through action that she is committed to getting the M back on track. And IMO that is more than just attending MC with you.

Continue to destabilize. It may be the only thing you can do to actually make her want to change.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> You really don't understand what's going on with your wife at all.
> 
> This is why you need IC.


I guess I don't understand why MY counseling will help me understand HER. Counseling us together, sure, I get that. But if I don't understand her, how does my talking to another person who doesn't know her half as well as I do going to help?

Counselor: "Why are you here Coppertop?"
Me: "My wife doesn't want to be intimate with me."
C: Why is that?
M: I don't know.
C: Has she said why?
M: No.
C: Have you asked her?
M: Yes.
C: What did she say?
M: She said she doesn't want to be intimate with me.
C: But she won't say why?
M: No.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> To answer your question, when your wife appears to be getting healthy,


Appears to be trying.



Anon Pink said:


> eating better,


Yes.




Anon Pink said:


> losing weight,


Yes.




Anon Pink said:


> paying attention to your needs as well as her health,


She appears to be trying. But I'm still just being her friend, I am not demonstrating any needs. 





Anon Pink said:


> you will know she IS changing.


If the above is all there is, we wouldn't be here. At one time or another she has done all the above and as soon as things got a little better, it froze or backslid right back to where we were.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I guess I don't understand why MY counseling will help me understand HER. Counseling us together, sure, I get that. But if I don't understand her, how does my talking to another person who doesn't know her half as well as I do going to help?
> 
> Counselor: "Why are you here Coppertop?"
> Me: "My wife doesn't want to be intimate with me."
> ...


Therapist: OK CopperTop, She had told you EXACTLY where she stands...What are YOU going to do about it? What changes do you NEED to see in this relationship in order to STAY and be HAPPY???


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Tron said:


> She has done nothing but talk so far.
> 
> I would not do anything until she shows through action that she is committed to getting the M back on track. And IMO that is more than just attending MC with you.
> 
> Continue to destabilize. It may be the only thing you can do to actually make her want to change.


I have to start somewhere. So far all my attempts at doing this alone have met with abject failure. I need the help of someone with more skills than I have.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

kristin2349 said:


> Therapist: OK CopperTop, She had told you EXACTLY where she stands...What are YOU going to do about it. What changes do you NEED to see in this relationship in order to STAY and be HAPPY???


Me:
If I knew what to do about it, I wouldn't be here.

I would like her to be more physically intimate because she wants to, either because she is doing because she wants to please me or because she actually enjoys it, and not as a way to have me stop bothering her. I would like to have that at least once a month, once a week would be better, several times a week best of all.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Me:
> If I knew what to do about it, I wouldn't be here.
> 
> I would like her to be more physically intimate because she wants to, either because she is doing because she wants to please me or because she actually enjoys it, and not as a way to have me stop bothering her. I would like to have that at least once a month, once a week would be better, several times a week best of all.


CopperTop:

I read through your last thread that got locked because there was no real change to report, 79 pages of why you wouldn't/couldn't leave, cheat...

Your wife thinks (go back and read what she posted) that she is perfectly normal. She isn't going to magically change her mind and go searching for her libido.

You can only change you. You have to make one significant change, then another. Like finding a good therapist and listening to them and actually doing something instead of giving a thousand reasons why you can't. She will either get with the program or she won't either way you'll be better off.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

CT
I have read a lot of what you have written. And forgive me if what I am going to write has been previously suggested.

You seem like a classic nice guy trapped in an unending loop of hope and rejection. You have no clear cut path to resolve your situation; no plan. To you, it seems as though your situation is unique.

Have you read Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life and his MAP book? These were ready made for someone in your predicament. They explain a step by step plan for improving your marriage and sex life. The plan is divided into phases and by the 4th phase, you feel good enough about yourself to firmly state your expectations in the marriage and lay out the choices your spouse will need to make to meet those expectations. By the time you reach that phase, you will have a clearer vision of your wife's true self (smashed wife goggles) and a clearer vision of the awesome life you would have without her. You might want to check out the website for Married Man Sex Life. I think it might give you just the confidence you need to follow a plan, become the best you can be and allow C2 the space to improve herself without losing face.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Template said:


> CT
> I have read a lot of what you have written. And forgive me if what I am going to write has been previously suggested.
> 
> You seem like a classic nice guy trapped in an unending loop of hope and rejection. You have no clear cut path to resolve your situation; no plan. To you, it seems as though your situation is unique.


I have no clear path because I have tried different paths and none seem to work. I think it is because I am not skilled/enlightened enough to understand her. Now, finally, I have her onboard with seeing a professional help. And yes, I am back in the hope cycle because I hope this will be the breakthrough I have been looking for. 

Unfortunately, I know I'm not unique. I think Richard Sharpe and I could be the same person. His situation sounds exactly like mine. I think he is intimate a little more often, but other that, he could be me.





Template said:


> Have you read Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life and his MAP book? These were ready made for someone in your predicament. They explain a step by step plan for improving your marriage and sex life. The plan is divided into phases and by the 4th phase, you feel good enough about yourself to firmly state your expectations in the marriage and lay out the choices your spouse will need to make to meet those expectations. By the time you reach that phase, you will have a clearer vision of your wife's true self (smashed wife goggles) and a clearer vision of the awesome life you would have without her. You might want to check out the website for Married Man Sex Life. I think it might give you just the confidence you need to follow a plan, become the best you can be and allow C2 the space to improve herself without losing face.


No. Not that one. I have read others though.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

The consensus seems to be stay the course, so I will. 

It just feels weird that she is trying to make up and I'm being so stand-offish. Normally I'm the one that is ready to forgive and move forward.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Template said:


> CT
> I have read a lot of what you have written. And forgive me if what I am going to write has been previously suggested.
> 
> You seem like a classic nice guy trapped in an unending loop of hope and rejection. You have no clear cut path to resolve your situation; no plan. To you, it seems as though your situation is unique.
> ...


Good thought on this Template. But the behavior patterns are too engrained, I think, for MMSL or NMMNG to have much impact on changing / salvaging the relationship dynamic. He would benefit himself by implementing some of the principles represented by those approaches. CT2 appears so set in her ways that true implementation would accelerate demise of the relationship altogether. (Something that CT apparently would still like to avoid.)

His only hope is engagement with marriage counseling with a wife open to actual change. I personally don't see it happening. But at least he can say he tried. The hope of marriage counseling allows CT to put off a difficult decision and / or final acceptance of bleak reality for another six months or so. 

My prediction is that she will attend two to three sessions, the counselor will get a read of the situation, start holding her feet to the fire and she will quit going. CT, per usual, will have not set any boundaries related to counseling and will continue to wallow after she pulls the plug on this effort. It will continue to be a stalemate until CT finally decides that he has had enough - figure another seven to 10 years. By the time he truly works up the will to extricate himself, she will be in truly poor health and he will be caught with her for another two to three years until she finally checks out for good. 

CT, believe it or not, you will look back on these times as "the good 'ol days." I see nothing but pain and frustration for you in the future if you don't start setting meaningful boundaries on what behaviors you are willing to accept in this relationship. You will continue to give virtually everything and get precious little in return for your sacrifice. We all make our choices. Your inability to set boundaries with consequences is not a failing. It is a specific behavioral choice that will produce dire consequences for you over the long haul.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> The consensus seems to be stay the course, so I will.
> 
> It just feels weird that she is trying to make up and I'm being so stand-offish. Normally I'm the one that is ready to forgive and move forward.


This is the beginning of her recognizing "consequences." 

So, let's review, you played nice guy for 20 years and your satisfaction with relationship gradually erodes to wholly unacceptable levels. You develop a backbone for two weeks and you see some movement. 

Which approach do you think works better? Your answer should help you determine your gameplan moving forward.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Good thought on this Template. But the behavior patterns are too engrained, I think, for MMSL or NMMNG to have much impact on changing / salvaging the relationship dynamic. He would benefit himself by implementing some of the principles represented by those approaches. CT2 appears so set in her ways that true implementation would accelerate demise of the relationship altogether. (Something that CT apparently would still like to avoid.)


I haven't done the Married Man Sex Life, but I did read No More Mr. Nice Guy. The problem is, in that long thread since locked, when I did my own thing and ignored her bad behavior, which is what No More Mr. Nice Guy advocates and I was doing even before reading the book, I was roundly criticized for "rug sweeping."

The very frustrating thing for me was most advocated making the consequence of boundary violation leaving. Because I still love my wife and want to try to save the marriage, I was seen as weak, ineffectual and <censored> whipped. Nobody seemed to hear me saying, I had a plan and I was going to execute it. Which I have. Have things changed? No... not yet. But I have her attention now. That's an improvement over where I have been.

So being beaten into submission isn't really the case. What IS the case, if I bale before I feel I have done all I can, I will eat myself alive with guilt. I don't tolerate poor decisions in myself very well. I don't mind making mistakes. If I look back at a mistake and can honestly say, "I would do that again if that was all the information I had to make my decision on," then I can let it go. But if I look back and say, "you didn't think it through" or "you let your emotions control your actions and didn't think" I tend to beat on myself pretty hard. If I happen to hurt someone else in the process, then the beatings last longer and are more severe. 

I know I do that. I don't want to have to live with that for years afterwards. 





MarriedTex said:


> His only hope is engagement with marriage counseling with a wife open to actual change. I personally don't see it happening. But at least he can say he tried.


This is where I have to get too. I have to be able to look myself in the eye in the mirror each morning and not flinch at what I see.





MarriedTex said:


> The hope of marriage counseling allows CT to put off a difficult decision and / or final acceptance of bleak reality for another six months or so.


Correct. It also gives me the peace of mind I need to face that bleak reality because if this doesn't work, I won't know where to turn. The reality then is... throw away almost 27 years of marriage and all that means, or life with what I have now. Neither of those has any appeal to me at all.





MarriedTex said:


> My prediction is that she will attend two to three sessions, the counselor will get a read of the situation, start holding her feet to the fire and she will quit going. CT, per usual, will have not set any boundaries related to counseling and will continue to wallow after she pulls the plug on this effort. It will continue to be a stalemate until CT finally decides that he has had enough - figure another seven to 10 years. By the time he truly works up the will to extricate himself, she will be in truly poor health and he will be caught with her for another two to three years until she finally checks out for good.
> 
> CT, believe it or not, you will look back on these times as "the good 'ol days." I see nothing but pain and frustration for you in the future if you don't start setting meaningful boundaries on what behaviors you are willing to accept in this relationship. You will continue to give virtually everything and get precious little in return for your sacrifice. We all make our choices. Your inability to set boundaries with consequences is not a failing. It is a specific behavioral choice that will produce dire consequences for you over the long haul.


Tex, will you answer one question, very specifically? I ask sincerely. Can you offer ANY consequence to the boundary issue other than divorce? Any at all? I can set all the boundaries in the world, but if there isn't some consequence to violating the boundaries, I might as well not bother. 

I sat the most painful consequence I could live with at this time, namely, "if you want just a friend, then I will just be your friend" asking only for counseling. It didn't even make her blink.

What did make her blink, and it surprised the <censored> out of me, was when I wanted to tell the kids about the change. It wasn't a threat. I didn't even know she would care. But she did. Then, and ONLY THEN, did she back off.

But the reality is, she is still digging in on the counseling, trying to worm out of having to go. I'm holding her to her word, but if she is trying this hard to avoid just TALKING about the problem, I know it isn't anywhere severe enough of a consequence to actually have her WORK on the problem. 

So what else is there? The only thing I can think of is to remove even the friendship, and that means divorce. I not ready to throw in the towel until I have a marriage counselor tell me, in his expert opinion, we should just give it up. 

He will have heard both sides of the story and with his expert knowledge, should know if the marriage can be saved. If S/HE says, Copper, you need to pack it in buddy... then, maybe, I can.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> So, let's review, you played nice guy for 20 years and your satisfaction with relationship gradually erodes to wholly unacceptable levels. You develop a backbone for two weeks and you see some movement.


Well, let's be clear. Improvement from the hellhole I'm in at the moment. No improvement over where we were before I started pushing this. 

Right now we are BOTH miserable.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

She appears to care about outside appearances.

Does she have parents / family that she is in contact with / care about? If she broaches the idea of quitting, one meaningful consequence would be along the lines of:

"I want both our families to know that I'm trying everything possible to stand by you and make this situation work. If you quit counseling, I will share with my family and yours that we are having difficulties, that I'm continuing to work on the relationship but also let them know that CT2 has decided to stop counseling."

I know it's a bit "tattle-tale" in nature. But it is a meaningful consequence short of divorce.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> She appears to care about outside appearances.
> 
> Does she have parents / family that she is in contact with / care about? If she broaches the idea of quitting, one meaningful consequence would be along the lines of:
> 
> ...


That's a good one, because she does care. But I can tell you how it will go if I do that.

My family: It's about DAMN time.

Her family: I knew that guy was trouble. He has always expected too much from you.

My mother is very free with her opinion of C2. Her mother has expressed her opinion in more than one case that I expect too much from C2. The difference is my mother only talks to me, where her mother thought I needed to know that I was asking for too much.

This was over tidying up the house, and was years go that her mother "enlightened me," but I don't expect a different reaction to this.

So if her family validates her opinion, have I helped or hurt myself? Honest question.

Edit to add: Let me add this. C2's father died when she was in her mid-twenties. Her mother would have been in her early fifties. After C2's father passed away, C2's mother has lived very happily with no male companionship ever since. Does it make any difference? I have no idea, but I am throwing it out there in case it matters.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> That's the plan. She agreed to have it done by the 15th of April.


She wouldn't happen to be in the income tax preparation business, would she? At any rate, come the 15th, I expect she'll ask for an extension.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> That's a good one, because she does care. But I can tell you how it will go if I do that.
> 
> My family: It's about DAMN time.
> 
> ...


Hurt Yourself? 

What more could she / they do that would produce an outcome that is hurting more than this relationship? 

Are you going to get less sex? Will you have more duties / responsibilities for caring for you and your kids? At that point, she will have stopped counseling and you will have no available path for improving the relationship. Exactly what do you have to lose? What would be the risk?

Yes, I do suppose she could treat you even worse. Never underestimate what she might pull out of the hat to make you more miserable than you already are. Perhaps then you would feel compelled to go to the nuclear option and move to separation / divorce. I know you see that as a bad outcome. Ultimately, you would come to see it as a blessing.

Do you truly believe that your family would react in the way you described? Have they expressed this to you before, or is that simply a projection on your part?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> I guess I don't understand why MY counseling will help me understand HER. te with me."
> .



Counseling will give you a professional version of what you're hearing on TAM. You aren't going to hear some magic unicorn horn remedy that will fix it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Hurt Yourself?
> 
> What more could she / they do that would produce an outcome that is hurting more than this relationship?
> 
> ...


Sorry. By hurt myself, perhaps I should have said not improve my situation.

My mother thinks that C2 doesn't pull her weight around the house. She is kind of old school that way. While she does not know about our marriage bed problems, she doesn't approve of C2 making me clean up behind her.

In a lot of ways she is like some here. "Why don't you make her do this and that." When I asked her how do I make her do that, she always says "I don't know." But as she says, "You're the one that has to live with her not me."

So no, I don't think I'm that far off.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> Counseling will give you a professional version of what you're hearing on TAM. You aren't going to hear some magic unicorn horn remedy that will fix it.


Understood. But they will have heard her side of the story as well.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> At one time or another she has done all the above and as soon as things got a little better, it froze or backslid right back to where we were.


That's because permanent change is obviously hard and requires a lot of work and isn't fun. You have to be really motivated and most people aren't that motivated. So the solution for those people is temporary change (and they hope their spouse doesn't notice when they back-slide -- or at least not mention it). Time will tell whether she means it this time. 

In the meantime, you work on you. And don't get sucked into her drama.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> She wouldn't happen to be in the income tax preparation business, would she? At any rate, come the 15th, I expect she'll ask for an extension.


She might. But I have my choice ready and we only have to select a day and time. I have that should work, but I want her buy in first before I book appointments.

I am trying to head off as many excuses as possible.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

CopperTop - Don't project down the road yet! Just work on step one - getting the counselor scheduled. 

Then allow the professional to guide you!

IF she refuses to go when it comes down to it - do what you said you were going to do and schedule a meeting with the kids.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

mary35 said:


> CopperTop - Don't project down the road yet! Just work on step one - getting the counselor scheduled.
> 
> Then allow the professional to guide you!
> 
> IF she refuses to go when it comes down to it - do what you said you were going to do and schedule a meeting with the kids.


That's what I'm focused on, and I will. I said I would do that, so now I HAVE to carry through. My word is on the line and I always do what I say I'm going to do.

It's part of the reason I choose my words with care. If I say it, I do it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

CopperTop said:


> Me:
> If I knew what to do about it, I wouldn't be here.
> 
> I would like her to be more physically intimate because she wants to, either because she is doing because she wants to please me or because she actually enjoys it, and not as a way to have me stop bothering her. I would like to have that at least once a month, once a week would be better, several times a week best of all.


You are missing the point: counseling for you is *not* about how you fix your wife. It's about how you fix *you*.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

always_alone said:


> You are missing the point: counseling for you is *not* about how you fix your wife. It's about how you fix *you*.


Oh. I didn't know I was broken.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Understood. But they will have heard her side of the story as well.



No need unless you're making things up and you aren't. 

A good therapist is not going to listen to someone rationalizing bad choices.... Not for very long at least.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> Oh. I didn't know I was broken.



If you believe that you have come this far and you're not broken, you probably are.

Apologies for being super blunt. The only way you survive is you either detach completely (my approach), constantly fight it (been there done that it's fun but no thanks), or embrace it.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> No need unless you're making things up and you aren't.
> 
> A good therapist is not going to listen to someone rationalizing bad choices.... Not for very long at least.


What I want is for her to finally tell me what is going on. What have I done/not done (if anything) that has gotten us to this place. I have asked this question until I know her answers by heart. But maybe I'm not asking the right questions and a good therapist can get it out of her. 

I want to go to counseling to help US work through OUR issues. I'm not perfect and don't pretend I am. I have done things in the past that I shouldn't have. Not out of maliciousness, but ignorance or misunderstanding. 

I think we have worked through all of those. She has said we are past them, but maybe not. I just don't know. What it comes down to is I don't know anything. I am completely befuddled by my situation. 

I need to be comfortable if I have to make the ultimate decision, and I'm not right now. I could be misreading this entire mess and I'M the problem.

What I am hoping for, more than anything, is she will simply LISTEN to someone who says our marriage is broken and WE need to fix it. 

Right now, from her point of view, if I would just do what I'm supposed to do as a good father and husband, and give up my crazy ideas, our marriage would be perfect.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> If you believe that you have come this far and you're not broken, you probably are.
> 
> Apologies for being super blunt. The only way you survive is you either detach completely (my approach), constantly fight it (been there done that it's fun but no thanks), or embrace it.


No. Blunt is good. 

Why do you suspect I am broken? If those are the three choices, I think fight comes closest.

I have to take a step back and recover sometimes, shake off the cobwebs from a stinging blow, but I have never given up hope that I can make this work.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It makes no difference whether you know why she's doing it if she will not live up to her responsibility and fix it. I know EXACTLY what goes on in my wife's mind and am rarely surprised (*) by her. 

If I had to guess she's somehow blaming you for her situation. Much easier than owning up to it herself. 

She has to wake up and smell the roses. 

Now to tell you why I think you need IC - as do many of us  - is that your case is the "easiest" to figure out. Think what I am dealing with. A BPD workaholic middle age woman who was raised in a theocracy and whose family has a pretty serious mental health history. And yet we had a good 25 year streak until the perfect storm hit. In your case you don't have unsolvable issues.

Up to 2013 I thought, "dude, I can fix this. I majored in psychology :lol: how hard can this be". It was. A year in TAM and countless psych "experiments" and lots of thought told me that's the end of the bus line in 25 months. So, I'm busy planning my exit strategy, enjoying her cooking and six figures, and that's it.

You don't have all that to deal with. Friendship? Companionship? Meh. Gas up my Mini Cooper, charge the Nikon and that's all the companionship I need.

But I have spent a ton of time thinking about it. It's not easy. But when I'm 70 and need a ride to the Medicare doctor or what not will she be there? I don't think so. That's what it's all about. 

(*) today she surprised me by commenting that $1500 for a cat is not expensive...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> What I am hoping for, more than anything, is she will simply LISTEN to someone who says our marriage is broken and WE need to fix it.


Copper my man, what are we going to do with you. It as if you haven't come to terms with your lady is several bricks shy of a full load. In her mind, your desire for sex is degrading and disgusting and nobody going to be able to change her mind. Who could you possible sign up with whose counsel that she would submit to. 
I think Proverbs 12:15 says it better than I can.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> If I had to guess she's somehow blaming you for her situation. Much easier than owning up to it herself.
> 
> She has to wake up and smell the roses.


Here's to waking up! If this is the case, at least I will know and we can start working the problem(s). But at least I would know how she feels and what is causing our problem(s). That's a far cry from where I am now. If I look at it and realize it is all <censored> then I can decide what to do. Right now I am completely clueless... and I hate being clueless.





john117 said:


> Now to tell you why I think you need IC - as do many of us  - is that your case is the "easiest" to figure out. ... .... In your case you don't have unsolvable issues.


Then I should be easy to fix if I have to make a break for it, right? For now I'm hoping that with professional help we can turn this around. Or perhaps the counselor will say, "Copper, you're MESSED UP, buddy. Come see me by yourself next week." Either way, I'll know.

If we can't, then I will have to prepare myself for some tough choices. If there is no fixing the problem(s), then I have to accept my situation and find a way to be happy, or I have to exit, stage left. 

I don't like either of those options. So at that point, I may need some help to sort through what I need to do. I have always believed that if you examine any problem with cold logic, examine all the pro's and con's of the various choices, the correct answer will present itself. It's a numbers game, more or less. I HOPE I can do the same if/when I finally realize our marriage is done for. If I can't, I might need a little help facing the cold hard reality of my situation. 

Right now, the numbers tilt the scales toward stay and try to work it out because I still have hope. When the hope is gone? That's pretty big change in the scales. I might have to find a grumpy looking old man avatar too.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In order to understand what's going on with her you need to rely on standard psych fare: take a case history, look at her past, stress factors, issues, skeletons.... Assuming she knows herself which I would not assume.

Professional help has a chance if both of you are open and not there simply for being there. A good therapist keeps notes and tracks the path. But he or she can declare the case hopeless and punt, or milk it for all it's worth. 

In either case it's her willingness to participate and her attitude that is critical. Given he tendency to dramatize I am not so sure.

You must assume the risk that therapy will dredge some pretty bad stuff ad prepare to deal with it. Either by staying or bailing.

I don't agree all problems are solvable. Not if you don't have the right solution ready at the tip of your fingers. 

You will know when it's time to go.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

ThePheonix said:


> Copper my man, what are we going to do with you. It as if you haven't come to terms with your lady is several bricks shy of a full load. In her mind, your desire for sex is degrading and disgusting and nobody going to be able to change her mind.


I need someone to hear her side of it and tell me that. You're only getting my take on it. What if I am reading it totally wrong? What if I'm the one that is causing all the problems and if someone just points that out to me, I can change (maybe)?

That's all I want at this point. Someone to hear both sides and help us right the ship... or tell us/me that I can stop bailing because nothing I can do at this point is going to save it from sinking.

I think that is being as fair as I possibly can and giving us every chance to save our marriage. I don't want to leave. I don't want to walk away. I have to KNOW I have done everything I can, gone above and beyond, to save our marriage. I don't want to have any regrets when this is all over, but if I do, I would rather regret staying than regret leaving.

I'm pretty sure if I decide to walk, it is going to be UGLY. Very ugly. I need to be able to look people in the eye and say, "I did everything I could." I have to decide just how much financial security am I willing to give up. I am going to have to make peace with my children over why I am leaving. That is a lot of <censored> to have to deal with. I need to be dead certain there is no hope in saving our marriage before I can even seriously think about that.




ThePheonix said:


> Who could you possible sign up with whose counsel that she would submit to.
> I think Proverbs 12:15 says it better than I can.


I know. Everyone thinks I'm a total moron. But every person has to come to terms in their own way. 

I put a sharp pencil to this some time back. By the time all the assets are divided up, I stand to be out nearly $800K. I'm not Warren Buffet. That's a big chunk for me to swallow. Yes, I know she will suffer a reduction in her standard of living too, but that doesn't change the fact that at 52 years old, that's a loss of a significant portion of what I was planning to retire on. 

Then there are my kids. I can't predict how they will react. I suspect my daughter will come slightly unhinged. I'm also pretty certain she will lay ALL the blame at me feet. It is not out of the realm of possibility that we will become estranged. I know everyone will say I am worrying over nothing and I am just staying that to justify my staying, but with her, I'm not. She is the most narrow minded, intolerant, judgmental 20 year old woman I have ever seen, and no amount of advice and counseling on my part has even dented her views. 

My son I am less worried about, but he is those difficult middle teen years, when so many kids begin to go wrong. His future is incredibly bright at the moment, and I don't want to disrupt that.

For me, I have to live with my decision. I have to be able to accept that I have done all that I could and there is nothing more to do, nothing more to give. I have to come to peace with my decision. I have to be able to look her mother in the eye and not have any question that I made the right choice because there was no other choice to make.

Then there is C2. Despite everything, I still care for her. I don't want to leave her. I love her. I don't know why, but I do. That isn't something I can just turn off like a switch. I need time. I need to loose hope for our future so I can begin to distance myself from her. It's not easy for me to let her go. 

Perhaps these concerns only make sense to me. Maybe I am a fool. But I'm the one that has to live with my decision. I take my word very seriously and I did say, "until death do us part." If calm, careful, considered deliberations over something this serious is foolish, then I guess I will have to accept the tag. 

Edit: After thinking about it some more, I realize this IS the biggest decision of my life, whether to leave or to stay. Even more so than asking for her hand in the first place because now there are two other affected by my decision. I have to be SURE.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

john117 said:


> In order to understand what's going on with her you need to rely on standard psych fare: take a case history, look at her past, stress factors, issues, skeletons.... Assuming she knows herself which I would not assume.
> 
> Professional help has a chance if both of you are open and not there simply for being there. A good therapist keeps notes and tracks the path. But he or she can declare the case hopeless and punt, or milk it for all it's worth.
> 
> ...


Sage advice. Thank you. 

If/When we go, I am going to put as much effort into it as I have the rest of this. I WANT this to work. I will not shirk my duty to try to make it work.

The therapist I have picked appears to be be very competent and well respected. She has her own radio program and is on the television often (according to her website). She has some youtube videos and I liked what I heard. Hopefully she can help us. And if not, hopefully she will be honest enough to tell us that too.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> I need someone to hear her side of it and tell me that. You're only getting my take on it. What if I am reading it totally wrong? What if I'm the one that is causing all the problems and if someone just points that out to me, I can change (maybe)?
> 
> 
> Then there are my kids. I can't predict how they will react. I suspect my daughter will come slightly unhinged. I'm also pretty certain she will lay ALL the blame at me feet. It is not out of the realm of possibility that we will become estranged. I know everyone will say I am worrying over nothing and I am just staying that to justify my staying, but with her, I'm not. *She is the most narrow minded, intolerant, judgmental 20 year old woman I have ever seen, and no amount of advice and counseling on my part has even dented her views. *


Gee, I wonder who your daughter might be modeling herself after.....I feel sorry for your future son-in-law.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> Gee, I wonder who your daughter might be modeling herself after.....I feel sorry for your future son-in-law.


Yeah... but do you do? I have tried to coach her into examining her belief system, but so far not much progress. Even C2 rolls her eyes at some of the stuff that pops out of C3's mouth. 

She doesn't date, ever, but I will say this. If she ever brings a someone home and the topic of marriage comes up, I will be the good guy and take the young man aside. I will have a nice friendly chat with him and explain to him what he is getting. If he proceeds after that, more power to him, but at least I warned him.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> She doesn't date, ever, but I will say this. If she ever brings a someone home and the topic of marriage comes up, I will be the good guy and take the young man aside. I will have a nice friendly chat with him and explain to him what he is getting. If he proceeds after that, more power to him, but at least I warned him.


Re-read what you wrote. Don't you think that's very disturbing in and of itself? Reading this made me very sad. For you, for your whole family. Sure, she's an adult, the damage has been done, but she's still pliable and can change. She doesn't have to continue to behave like her mother. On the contrary: you should be pulling aside her suitors and warn them that if they harm a hair on her head, you'll drop-kick em. I think it's sad you feel this way about your own daughter.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

kristin2349 said:


> You can only change you. You have to make one significant change, then another. Like finding a good therapist and listening to them and actually doing something instead of giving a thousand reasons why you can't. She will either get with the program or she won't either way you'll be better off.


QFT!

I am not going to waste my time trying to convince someone like CopperTop to get himself into therapy, trying to sell it to him, trying to explain why it's HIM that needs therapy first.

Nothing will change if nothing changes.

Change begins with you.

Wishing you well.


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## Cedar (Apr 2, 2015)

Dear Copper ,

Only professional ppl will be able to help u on the ground with execution plan .
But it is important that you benefit from some opinions and take the logical ones from TAMMERS.

I can summarize few and on them from my experience .

-Your marriage issues are not just caused by just her weight or sex life ; they are caused by issues that were ignore when you got married and they are appearing agin now; these isues are related to givology ,respect and willingness to sacrifice.

-You might be both needed Therapy.

-The more you talk about sex the less you will get .

-Even you have no plans to seperate , you need to start having a seperate time for yourself ; where you have hobbies, meet new ppl ;i am not encouraging you to cheat , not at all , but you need to have friends and share new hobbies from them ; BE Carefull , don't share your issues with them , share it only with your therapist at this stage .

-A deal breaker should be a deal breaker ; if ur partner knows that u will never execute a certain deal breaker : u r smashed...; I fell into the same position many times .

-without really arguing with her ; sometimes just detach , go out alone , enjoy something you like...

But as I said before , one day u will need to create a negative shock to wake her up ; but for now just follow the therapist ...

good luck man ! you will need it


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## Cedar (Apr 2, 2015)

Coppertop came here for help ; we all agree that only a professional will be able to draw an execution path efectively ;but we can still advise him to avoid/do few things that are helpful.

pushing things to the extreme is not really helpful


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> Re-read what you wrote. Don't you think that's very disturbing in and of itself? Reading this made me very sad. For you, for your whole family. Sure, she's an adult, the damage has been done, but she's still pliable and can change. She doesn't have to continue to behave like her mother. On the contrary: you should be pulling aside her suitors and warn them that if they harm a hair on her head, you'll drop-kick em. I think it's sad you feel this way about your own daughter.


I know very well what I wrote, and it is sad that she is the way she is. But burying my head in the sand and not acknowledging the realities of how she behaves helps no one.

For the past two or three years I have been trying to point out how and why I believe her thinking is wrong headed, but I haven't been able to to sway her. No wonder she doesn't date.

I never said I would allow anyone to abuse or treat her poorly. In fact, that is the reason I would have the chat with the young man. He needs to know what he is getting. I would rather him drop her before they marry than to realize afterwards that he can't stay. If there is ONE thing that has become abundantly clear to me, not every guy has the same level of commitment to their marriage that I have to mine. 

I continue to hope that she will meet someone and they will be able to do what I have not because I want her to be happy. For now she seems perfectly happy and fine that she has never been on a date. But I'm very afraid unless she changes her attitude, she is going to have a very lonely life.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Cedar said:


> Dear Copper ,
> 
> Only professional ppl will be able to help u on the ground with execution plan .
> But it is important that you benefit from some opinions and take the logical ones from TAMMERS.


This is the frustrating part for me. People don't seem to remember the whole picture. They are so focused on what I refuse to do, they don't remember the things that I say that I do do.





Cedar said:


> I can summarize few and on them from my experience .
> 
> -Your marriage issues are not just caused by just her weight or sex life ; they are caused by issues that were ignore when you got married and they are appearing agin now; these isues are related to givology ,respect and willingness to sacrifice.


There was no severe problem when we got married. Yes, there was some mismatch in drive, but had we stayed where we were I would be quite comfortable.

But I agree that this is where our problem lies. She isn't trying to meet me somewhere in the middle. I'm hoping that our counseling will help her realize that.




Cedar said:


> -You might be both needed Therapy.


Been trying to get us there, off and on, for years. I have finally gotten a commitment.





Cedar said:


> -The more you talk about sex the less you will get .


Yep. Stopped doing that over a year ago. Hasn't helped with the sex part, but has made the rest of the marriage much better.





Cedar said:


> -Even you have no plans to seperate , you need to start having a seperate time for yourself ; where you have hobbies, meet new ppl ;i am not encouraging you to cheat , not at all , but you need to have friends and share new hobbies from them ; BE Carefull , don't share your issues with them , share it only with your therapist at this stage .


I do this... always have. I write. I restore antique cars. I race one of them. I go shooting. I often invite C2 to join me in these activities, but if she chooses to not, I go anyway and have a good time.





Cedar said:


> -A deal breaker should be a deal breaker ; if ur partner knows that u will never execute a certain deal breaker : u r smashed...; I fell into the same position many times .


I agree. Which is why I am careful with my "threats." If I say something I do it. That is why I don't threaten very often. I'm not willing to carry through on most of them. 





Cedar said:


> -without really arguing with her ; sometimes just detach , go out alone , enjoy something you like...


I do this. See above about friends and activities.





Cedar said:


> But as I said before , one day u will need to create a negative shock to wake her up ; but for now just follow the therapist ...
> 
> good luck man ! you will need it


Thank you for the advice. I have a clear goal in mind and I am working toward it. I just take a different path than some I guess.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Your daughter needs therapy ASAP!


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

karole said:


> Your daughter needs therapy ASAP!


Did it a few years ago, against my wishes, for "teen angst." That was when she was diagnosed with her mild case of Aspergers. Having attended therapy and having it on her medical records cost her the ability to join the Armed Services, something she had been dreaming of for years. It's really too bad too because her personality would have made her a model soldier.

The really annoying thing is I warned C2 & C3 of the risk of what they were doing. But nobody listened.

Narrow mindedness isn't something that can be "cured" and the doctor said she was perfectly normal other than she will always be socially awkward.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

intheory said:


> Copper,
> 
> I just had to reiterate the above.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. But remember, we are as low in our marriage as I think we can go, lower than we have ever been before. She is miserable and so am I. Of course she wants to improve the situation. She's feeling the pain... but so am I. I can't live like this forever and I don't think she can either. 

We have to move, eventually, to a better place, but as soon as she stops feeling the pain, I believe the improvements will stop. The problem is, she will stop feeling the pain far sooner than I will. As soon as I stop being a ass, and start trying to support her again, she will be comfortable once more.

Then we will be right back where we were before this all started. I have been down this road before, and that is what has happened every single time in the past. I have no reason to believe this time will be any different.

This is the cycle I don't know how to break. I can move her to (for arguments sake, call it) halfway to where I want to be. But at halfway, she is supremely comfortable with our marriage. How do I get her to move the rest of the way?


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read neuklas's advice to LuffIsTuff


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

CopperTop said:


> This is the cycle I don't know how to break. I can move her to (for arguments sake, call it) halfway to where I want to be. But at halfway, she is supremely comfortable with our marriage. How do I get her to move the rest of the way?


The answer is that you can't. You are unwilling to end the relationship. We get that. But don't come and whine that you don't have the answer for reaching the conclusion you want. 

You get the relationship you are willing to accept. You will virtually accept anything in order to sustain the relationship. Hence, you will always be stuck with half measures from her. If you demand more from her, it's her option to meet your needs or cut off the relationship. She has shown she can do this quite well. (Remember her little time away from the family when you first started pushing on issues.)

We've have tried to say this nicely, every way possible. But, let's face it, she has your balls in her purse. While taking some steps in the right direction, you still value preserving the relationship over moving a relationship that is more balanced between you and her. She knows that, and you have not shown any willingness to fundamentally change this dynamic.

That is fine. It is your choice. You seem to be looking for a magic pill that will allow you nice your way out of this dilemma. Sorry, none exist. She will never meet you halfway until you stand up for yourself and demand it as a condition for continuing the marriage.

Yes, the possibility exists that she will not tolerate being in a relationship where you stand up for yourself. That is not a bad thing. That is useful information that allows you to move on. 

So far, your perspective on the relationship dynamic should not have changed one iota. You say she's miserable. Well, who in the heck cares? She hasn't cared much about your needs for two decades. From where you sit, you're in the same 'ol situation that you've always been in. Status quo.

You're obviously bright, intelligent and caring. But you're as dense as a wooden block on this issue. As counterintuitive as it sounds, you have to be willing to burn the village in order to save it.

So, stop asking about how to salvage things. We've given you the answer multiple times. You just don't want to hear it. That's your choice. Much earlier in the thread, I called you out as a "martyr"-a term you rejected. I still think it is apt.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> The answer is that you can't. You are unwilling to end the relationship. We get that. But don't come and whine that you don't have the answer for reaching the conclusion you want.
> 
> You get the relationship you are willing to accept. You will virtually accept anything in order to sustain the relationship. Hence, you will always be stuck with half measures from her. If you demand more from her, it's her option to meet your needs or cut off the relationship. She has shown she can do this quite well. (Remember her little time away from the family when you first started pushing on issues.)
> 
> ...


Yeah. I get it. I also get that if my only option is to tell her its my way or the highway, I am well and truly stuck.

If that is my only answer, I might as well file for divorce today. I won't even bother talking to her about it because I know exactly how she will react. I would consider myself fortunate if I come home the day after I tell her and my bags are not packed, sitting outside the front door, with the locks changed. 

But even if that didn't happen, I can't see her ever being willing to give me what I ask for, which is a loving, caring spouse. She would resent my tactics and I can't see how that resentment will ever allow her to move forward. She wouldn't be doing it because she wants to, she would be doing it because she feels she has to.

Thank you for the plain spoken truth, though. 

This thread is beginning to devolve like the previous one. So this one doesn't get locked, I'm not going to post here again unless someone asks a specific question of me.

If anyone wants to know how our counseling worked out, assuming we actually go, just leave a post here. If several ask, I will start a new thread once I have some news.

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts, advice, comments and help.


Copper


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You are the king of self-limiting.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> Did it a few years ago, against my wishes, for "teen angst."


CT, why was it against your wishes for your daughter to get therapy?


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> CT, why was it against your wishes for your daughter to get therapy?


Because I didn't think she was going through anything other than all the normal <censored> that all teenagers go through, and I knew that visiting a psychiatrist would be a red flag for her joining the military.

She had wanted to join the military for a long time. It was her dream job. She was in Junior Air Force ROTC in high school, excelled at it, and loved it. 

The Doc saw her for four weeks, suggest that perhaps she has a bit of Aspergers, but other than that, was perfectly normal. Wrote that up in his report as well. 

But when she had to do the medical part to join the Air Force, those medical records threw up a red flag. In he end, the Air Forced rejected her because she had undergone "psychiatric evaluation."

That was a major blow to her and devastated her self confidence. C2 and I have been dealing with the repercussions of that rejection ever since.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Copper,
> 
> All your behavior from the start has been predicated on the belief that if the marriage ends - you will be alone.
> 
> ...


I will propose a third foundation for marital Stockholm:

- moral failure / loss of identity


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> IYou're only getting my take on it. What if I am reading it totally wrong? What if I'm the one that is causing all the problems and if someone just points that out to me, I can change (maybe)?


You tell me. Does your old lady sound like all other women you meet when describing normal sexuality? As best as you describe, you've got the same plumbing as every other guy so how has the problem. You just need to accept she's has a warped view of reality and is not the sharpest tool in the shed. 
I'd like to hear some dissenting views, but at her age, there is too much water under the bridge for her to change. Five years from now you're going to be listening to her fiddling the only tune she knows.
_(my opinion comes from my perception based upon your description of the woman in your story_)


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

This horse is thoroughly beaten.....


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## LonelyinLove (Jul 11, 2013)

Wow, totally missed this until today.

Holy crap.

Note to Mrs. C....I will be 56 Monday, hubs is 57. We have sex...no, wait...we make love, multiple times a week (sometimes multiple times a day). He touches whatever he wants, as do I. We enjoy each other throughly. 

I am a victim of CSA. It was a crime. I deal with it. It does not define me nor do I allow it to affect my life as an adult.

I had to lose weight too. I got up off my a$$ and took it one step at a time. 

I look better now than I did when I was younger.

Get up off your butt, quit feeling sorry for yourself, get yourself in shape and healthy.

You have a husband. That means your are a wife. Husbands and wives make love. If you want to keep your husband, you need to be his wife, in every way possible. If not, you need to gracefully step aside and allow him a life of love with someone else.

That's adulthood.

More importantly, that's marriage.


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