# was it really just a kiss and can we ever recover?



## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

Note: I originally posted this in another topic/forum but didn't get any response. After posting I realized it would fit better here. Thank you for reading and sorry for being long-winded. 

My screen name says only a small portion of the way I'm feeling right now. My marriage of nearly 5 years is crumbling before my eyes and I'm an absolute wreck. I really don't have a lot of places to turn for honest, anoymous advice so hence joining this forum. I'm hoping to get some good feedback and other things that I need to consider as I weigh my options in moving forward with my life, with or without my wife. 

As I mentioned, we have been married for nearly 5 years and dated for nearly 2 years before getting engaged. As nearly everyone, we had a passionate stage at the beginning followed by growing more comfortable with one another. I had some questions in my mind about our compatibility when we were married but felt it to be nothing more than typical cold feet. My wife is very outgoing in social settings but guarded/reserved at home and prefers to relax over anything else. I am the opposite where I can be shy around new people so we do very well together in social settings and feed off one another. I am always on the go, doing things around the house and am very high energy. I love to be outdoors and be active while she doesn't always share the same love these activities and often feels that I am just living around her when she wants to relax. 

Now, nearly five years later things are really unraveling. Shortly after getting married we relocated for her job to a new city/state. We work for the same company although we now work in different areas of a large Fortune 50 company. My wife worked 2nd shift when we relocated and I worked 1st which caused some initial distance/separation. I believe this time apart allowed us to become more comfortable apart as we are together and we failed to make enough time for one another. It was about 3 years ago when I discovered my wife was exchanging text messages with another man and was developing an emotional connection and an emotional affair. She apologized, cut off the relationship and we sought counseling. 

Our relationship improved slightly and we stopped going to counseling but should have kept going to resolve the root of the problems we were facing. Shortly thereafter we found out we were pregnant and we now have an absolutely beautiful 18 month old daughter. Our daughter brought us closer together but the challenges of being new parents left us little time to connect and spend quality time with one another and we often found each other going out with friends while the other watched the baby. Unfortunately we did not continue with counseling, something I now regret deeply. 

After an argument toward the end of last summer/early fall we agreed to start seeing a marriage counselor together again. Initially it felt like we were making progress and we were meeting both together and she with my wife individually. My wife struggles with some issues dating back to her youth when her brother touched her in an inappropriate sexual nature and she kept this repressed/hidden from her parents and everyone else until about 3 years ago. She felt that the counseling sessions with her therapist were helping her find herself but I often felt like it was driving us further apart. 

Our sex life has not been the greatest for some time. It has always been hit and miss since the move. My wife rarely initiates anything sexual and I am typically the one to try to initiate anything between us. Earlier this week while trying to initiate a spark my wife indicated she wasn't interested and this spurned a conversation that has led to nearly 5 days of difficult thoughts, pains and emotions. 

Basically it came to a head and we agreed that we have lost the "spark" and my wife was seriously wondering if we should continue our marriage. This was prompted by my discussions in that she seems to garner more joy from spending time with her friends than she does with me. I'll be the first to admit that we don't do a lot of dates, often due to financial issues (more on that in a minute). She admitted that while she loved me very much as a person she wasn't sure if she was "in love" with me any longer. 

After some long, painful conversations we agreed that we would both try to seek a fresh start and try to renew our commitment to one another despite the challenges. Despite this, I still had some reoccurring thoughts that there was someone else. She previously admitted to developing feelings for someone else which prompted our counseling at the end of last year. When I pressed the matter and asked if it had gone further she admitted that it had and that she had kissed another man. I pressed further and she swore on our daughter that it didn't go further but I just didn't get a lot of confidence in her response and am really questioning if she is being truthful about how far their physical affair had gone. 

All of this is leading to my current dilemma and I have a million thoughts running through my head. Jealousy, anger, frustration, shame, and guilt are all there at different times. I think I can forgive but acknowledge that it will take counseling and time. I asked her to let me contact the person that she kissed who is a co-worker of hers. I don't know why I feel the need to do so but I want to confront him. I'm not the type of person that wants to go beat him up (although that crossed my mind for a moment) but for some reason I think talking with him will help me with some sort of closure as a man/husband. However, she doesn't want me to as she feels this is solely between us. I know who he is but have never met him before. I resisted the urge to send an email to him telling him to leave my wife alone but still fight an urge to do so nor will I contact him at work for the obvious HR reasons. 

We have had our fair share of differences with responsibility falling on both of us. We both earn incomes that together should allow us to live very comfortably but are consistently paycheck to paycheck over my wife's inability to budget and manage money. This causes enormous tension between us and since I manage the finances causes her to view me as "parenting" her whenever we talk about money. I freely admit that I've probably taken our marriage for granted and have not shown the affection or stated my affection to her, which caused her to look elsewhere. 

Now I don't know where to turn and hence why I am here. I have very few, if any friends that I feel I can turn to and talk about this. We have worked together for nearly 10 years and nearly all of my friends are mutual friends of hers or people I don't want to bring into our problems out of respect for my wife. I am going to start seeking a counselor next week because I am really struggling with my next step. By nature I hold everything in and do well with emotions but this is absolutely crushing me to the point where I can't keep a dry eye. 

I really still feel an attraction to my wife and absolutely want to help make it work for our daughter. I have a great relationship with her family, so much so that when she told her mother about our problems they sided more with me than with her. That said, I don't know if I can ever trust her again. I really want to try again and feel an attraction to her but at this point it isn't mutual and she hasn't felt truly "in love" with me for some time. I think we can recreate it but I don't want to put in the work to only be hurt again. 

To make this even more of a "life-crossroads" type moment, she is interviewing for a new job within our company in the near future, one that would maybe require a move. While this would be a promotion for her and a likely good career move for me as well, I'm not sure I want to move to a new location when my marriage is on the rocks and divorce could be in the future. I can't bear to think of being away from my daughter and am at a complete loss for what to do. 

Any advice you can provide would be appreciated.

Thank you.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

Well, you've come to the right place. There are some greatly experienced folks who will most likely be providing sound advice shortly.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

"Just a kiss" is cheatspeak for we had sex. DNA your daughter, there's more than a decent chance that she might not be yours. Where do you think here income is going? Have you run a credit check on her, legally? And remember you are not the cause of her affair.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Make sure you know who the OM is. Find out if he's married or a significant other. There's likely more than just a kiss. And has probably been going on for a good while.

Contact the OMs wife and see what she knows - tell her what you know.


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## ody360 (Feb 1, 2013)

sorry you are here. I don't know much about you, but your story sounded really familiar to mine. Almost spot on but my WS fling was with the group of friends she hung out with. 

First things first you need to do some major investigating under the radar. Have you dug through her phone, text messages calls, see if there is anything very unusual. Try to check her email if you can, check her face book, check for messages or see if she seems like she is liking some guys stuff a lot or making comments more then on anyone else face book post...That's what ended up catching my attention to start to dig. Kinda makes me wonder if there is maybe someone else that has her attention. My WS did. Usaully when that does happen they do get distant and start to do and say what she is saying. By the way make sure you know for yourself if they only kissed your gonna have people tell you if they kissed that means they probably had sex. In some cases true but in my case it was not true. It was only a kiss. So be careful before you just rush to that judgement.. every body situation is similar but still different in the end.

It sound like you guys have turned more into roommates then husband and wife. Very typical to happen especially when you think hey i never have to worry about my wife leaving or having an affair. You need to decide what you want to do. First off you need to be ready to loose your marriage to save it. She needs a wake up call that hey you have no problem of leaving. Since you sound like you do the majority of the house stuff bills, ect, she need to be woken up about her lack of responsibilities around the house. You also need to stop the i go out, you watch the kid, you go out and i watch the kid. I did that cause i thought i was being a good husband and letting her out to breath and relax. I never thought in a million years that ended up being a bad thing... You have to much trust in your wife that needs to change and you can never go back to being that trusting of anyone... One thing you cant do is go begging and pleading, You need to find out what you marriage was lacking try to correct your end of it, but at the same time be ready to move on. You need to go work on yourself if you out of shape or unhealthy up your sex rank.. If you already fit and healthy then not much you can do their. 

Im am no expert im still only 4 months into my R with my wife.. But the biggest thing that i got from all of this is YOU DO NEED TO BE READY TO LOOSE YOUR MARRIAGE.. once i got that down and my wife realize that hey my husband is gonna leave me, she snapped out of it quick... Her plan B was about to ship out and she really didn't have a plan A yet. She was still searching. Good luck man there are people who are gonna have good advice. Just listen, they know what there dong and have a lot of experience with dealing with are situations. They are very helpful. Also go around and read other people situations, it will help you see and get out of your own fog about how not perfect you wife can be..


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

The two of you working different shift has to end, especially having a child in the home, it's has turned you into roommates not lovers.

The effect of that has left your wife open to other men, and you've seen the tip of that iceberg.

Is she still working closely with the guy she had feelings for and kissed? That needs to stop,.

Have you checked her cellphone to see if she's texting or calling someone like the OM outside of work?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Since she's not putting effort into building the marriage that's a real red flag , as is her I love you but ... Speech. She does have feelings, the question is where are they directed.

Do not confront or accuse her before you have more facts than you do right now, she'll just deny if she's taken her kissing farther, and if its still going on which is a possibility,

Are you sure you really know who she is out with and what they are doing?


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## Garm (Mar 11, 2013)

I know exactly what you're going through. I have 2 young toddlers and I recently caught my wife in a physical/emotional affair. It blows my mind to think these women would sacrifice the happiness of their own children so they can have sex with another man. 

I am over three weeks since I discovered this and it is a nightmare every day. I still don't know what to do. Good luck to you.


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## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

First off, thank you all for the responses so far. While it is nice to hear from others that have been in the same situation I do hate to hear that others have had to go through the same thing....because it really sucks. 

I know who the other man is but don't know him personally. They work in the same area and he is not married. She has said that she's cut things off with him although I'm not sure exactly what the message was or how it was conveyed. They work in the same area but I'm not sure how close. Part of me is really hoping she gets the new job to remove herself completely from the area. 

She is very guarded with her phone (red flag) and it has been a point of disagreement with us in the past. I did manage to get in and look at her call and text history but there were no recent calls to him and messages were Imessage so they don't show on our cell phone bill. I did confirm the number and searched back through our phone records with no matches. She deletes the messages between the two of them and his last message to her was that he would give her space. I still strongly feel the need to confront him so he knows exactly how I feel about it and knows to not contact her in the future. I don't know exactly how I will confront the deleting of the messages with her as I don't want to appear to have been snooping on her phone which is password protected and she doesn't know that I know the password. I am too involved in our finances for her to be doing anything there. 

She is friends w/ the OM on facebook and although they don't interact with one another publicly it is how I was able to put his last name to the first name which she gave me during her initial admission of what had been going on. I am going to demand that she block him on facebook and with our cell phones as well. 

I'm not concerned about the DNA of our daughter although this is a good suggestion. I feel like I'm at the point where I'm ready to have some very frank, open discussions with her once we restart counseling. I feel like a doormat that bends over backwards for everyone other than myself and this has really given me pause and allowed me to see that I need to stand up for myself. I completely agree with the comment that we have turned into roommates. My wife and I had talked about this previously and that makes it more painful that we didn't properly address some of these issues previously. I also agree that I've been too trusting, especially after the first emotional affair. After our daughter I know I stopped trying as much as is needed and felt that things would improve naturally and that she wouldn't leave me. Guess I was right in that she wouldn't leave, just turn away which was in fact more painful than the other option. 

Again, thank you all for the advice and support. It is greatly appreciated.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

There have been plenty of spouses who swear up and down, on their children's lives, their mothers lives and yet ......you know the rest. She cheated and now she has to face consequences and earn trust.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

As a professor of fraud examination and forensic accounting, a sign of deception is swearing on a "stack of Bibles", "their mother's grave", etc. That doesn't mean she didn't stop things at a kiss or she is being deceptive. It simply means adding, swearing "on our daughter that it didn't go further" actually increases, rather than decreases, the odds she is being deceptive.
If you have the will and the juice to push it, a polygraph is your best bet at getting the truth.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Dear ConfusedFrustrated,

I read your entire story, and I feel an anger welling inside me for your wife making you go through an EA and still breaking your heart three years later. Affairs are utterly heart-wrenching, cruel cruel things. You don't deserve this extended pain, no matter how less than your perfect your marriage may have been (assuming you were not abusive, a cheater yourself, and so on).

If I were you, I'd read the newbie link straight away. It helps you make sense of what you're going through, and you will see you are not alone. You'll also see what to expect from a remorseful or non-remorseful cheater:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html

On the basis of four months of using TAM and seeing stories again and again and the "cheater script" I can tell you with 98% confidence that it was more than a kiss. Your wife has been sexual with her affair partner. There is no way that it carried on for so long without it going physical. We're speaking about adults living a secret life. In addition, all indications from your story suggest that she is STILL in the affair. For example, she does not want you to contact the OM. If she was over it, she would find him despicable. It is, from my vantage point and I think others' here, clear that you are still being lied to and disrespected and cheated. 

Be prepared to learn a lot of much worse things about your wife. Do the intelligence digging that you need to do to make up your mind about whether or not you want to work on the marriage. If you want to work on your marriage, you need a partner who is also willing. If she is not, then your best bet is (as someone stated above) to prepare yourself mentally to let go of her because ONLY WHEN SHE IS HURT, when she "gets it" that SHE WILL LOSE ALL, only then will she shock herself out of the affair fog and realize she wants to save your marriage. (Your pain, the pain of a betrayed spouse, is no catalyst for change, sadly.) There aren't any guarantees but setting clear conditions and printing off the divorce papers and kicking her out of the home - that is your best shot at saving the marriage (however counterintuitive it may seem). 

Keep us up to date on your situation. I fear you are about to feel an onslaught of pain. It gets worse before it gets better.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Your marriage is being held together with masking tape and spittle. It's coming apart at the seams because your wife is pulling it apart a bit at a time. Kind of like the story of a frog that sits in a pan of water that is slowly heated until it boils but the frog dies because the heat was gradual.

Don't be the frog!

Take control of your life and control of your duty as the head of your household.
She made vows with you. She needs to abide by them or leave.

Tell her that as her husband you insist on the following:

No deleted texts from anyone ever. Same for you.
She will show you her phone when asked. Same for you.
She will share all passwords w you. Same for you.

She will write a no contact letter to the OM and show it to you. You will deliver it or mail it.

She sees a marriage counselor, and maybe a sex therapist too, with you.

These are non-negotiable for you. Ask her to commit herself to these and to your marriage. If she balks, or refuses, then you have your answer to her attitude about the marriage.


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## totallyunexpected (Nov 21, 2012)

Follow Walkonmars's advice. Let me add that once you know her attitude toward the marriage, you need to follow through. If she is remorseful and willing to abide by your conditions, fine, you work on it. You're in for an emotional roller coaster.

If she is not willing to abide by EVERY condition, then you need to make it clear that you are done. Print off the divorce papers. Act calm even if inside your are crumbling apart. If she doesn't feel remorseful yet (and I mean crazy remorseful) then it will probably take shocking the h3ll out of her to get her to change her ways, to return to the marriage. Detaching and preparing yourself to lose her will also help you if you decide the marriage can't be saved.

You can't control her behavior. You can't beg her or "nice" her into returning to the marriage. You can only make it damn clear that you will not be a cuckold.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

confused,

Don't contact the OM. It will make you appear weak to your wife; in as much you're conceding that you don't feel confident that you can make her stop contact. I understand you're angry at him, but you should focus that anger constructively at the person that broke your wedding vows.

You have red flags all over the place that indicate this affair is more than she admits to. The ILYBNILWY speech, the waning sex, guarding the phone, deleting texts, the swear by my daughter's life, the prior affair, the tacit admission of "only" a kiss (very unlikely given the other red flags). 

Though you shouldn't contact the OM, you should expose him. Find out more about him and expose to his SO, and his family. Expose this also to your wife's family, your family and her close friends. Don't tell her about the exposure, just do it. This will significantly reduce the likelihood of the affair continuing. 

I wasn't clear on whether this man works in the same company. If so, you absolutely can't tolerate this. You must insist that your wife ends contact with him immediately and forever. If this means she must quit her job, then so be it. The chances of this affair ending when they see each other at work are slim to none. Continued MC is waste of money when there is a possibility of her continued contact with him.

Stop blaming yourself for her infidelity. No matter what your percent of responsibility for the marital issues, she is 100% responsible for her cheating. Don't accept her blame shifting, and don't let allow her to rug sweep this.

You'll here this over and over, but you have to be willing to end your marriage to have a "chance" to save it. That's the TAM mantra and it's absolutely true. If she is not agreeable to ending contact, allowing you access to her communications, and demonstrating remorse for what she's done; you're only option is to do the 180 on her (very important - find the link) and start divorce proceedings. If she comes around you can always reconsider, but you have to give her strong consequences - now. This is your window of opportunity "if" you want to have a chance at R.

You have to show strength and resolve to your wife. You can't nice your way out of this. Put the ball back in her court and tell her your expectations if she wants to continue the marriage. Don't rug sweep this. She will loose respect and affection for you if you don't show her a strong, confident attitude. She must know that you mean business about the D. 

If you follow this advice, and you should, let us know how she reacts and we can advise you further.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

If your wife commits herself to the marriage she needs to start looking for another job ASAP, like TODAY. That's a consequence of infidelity, and it most certainly WAS/is infidelity.

She can't be around him in any capacity. You should put a VAR (voice activated recorder) under the front seat of her car - secured w heavy duty velcro - be sure to have good batteries and test it. 

Check the VAR for a few weeks to ensure there's no contact. Don't plead with her or promise anything. The promises were made on your wedding day and so far she hasn't lived up to them.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Swears on daughter's life = "liar! Liar! Pants on fire!"

I truly hope not but please don't hold your breath.
However! Even after a PA reconciliation can still be possible!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

I find it hilarious how often people boldly claim "YOUR WIFE HAS DEFINITELY SLEPT WITH OM!! In fact from what little you've written I can accurately calculate they slept together 54 times!!"

Red flags are aplenty but they are just that reg flags. Indicators that things are terribly wrong in your marriage and that she has probably checked out and started detaching....kissing another man can make that detachment much easier.

I'd second the advice given by some here..get your head together, stop flailing around and start to be strategic. Get a VAR, install a key logger onto the computer, if you can install spyware on her phone and start gathering intel. Let her continue her normal routine and activities she's doing and don't draw attention to yourself.

You want to know the facts. Once you have the facts, you'll know what you're dealing with..either your wife is at sort of crossroads trying to deal with your marriage, or she's cheating and stringing you along with promise of false reconciliation.

Your flailing during these past few years has led you round the same circle time and time again. Time to break the circle and take charge.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

BobSimmons said:


> I find it hilarious how often people boldly claim "YOUR WIFE HAS DEFINITELY SLEPT WITH OM!! In fact from what little you've written I can accurately calculate they slept together 54 times!!"
> 
> Red flags are aplenty but they are just that reg flags. Indicators that things are terribly wrong in your marriage and that she has probably checked out and started detaching....kissing another man can make that detachment much easier.
> 
> ...


I might be more prone to give your wife the benefit of the doubt on the PA, if she hadn't had a prior EA. That would make a world of difference to me in what I would now tolerate from her.


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## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

Well.....those that felt that it was more than just a kiss have had their assumptions proved correct. I confronted my wife today and told her a number of things that I had been feeling including that there must be absolutely no contact. She did admit that they have had sex and that she still loves him. I am hesitant to expose the affair but did contact him directly and he did not answer my calls. He then texted my wife and said that I had been reaching out to him and she told me to stop or she would file. Ha! I find it sad and funny that she still thinks she has a card left to play and that this would actually get under my skin and upset me! He isn't married but does have kids. 

We fought long tonight about all of the issues but I held my ground that cheating was not tolerable and that I wouldn't consider staying if she did not agree to no contact. I can't believe that I'm still or was ever in the denial stage or that I was naive enough to believe that it was just a kiss. She said that she wasn't "ready" to answer all of my questions tonight. I guess I'm ready to answer them for her by preparing to move on. I had a long conversation with one of my closest friends that encouraged me to give it time but I'm not sure that we can ever recover from the cheating and lying. 

Thankfully tomorrow is my first appointment with a therapist as I look to move past this and continue to show my self confidence. i sincerely appreciate all the advice provided so far. It has been very supportive.


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## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

I also forgot to mention that she had the gall to call it an invasion of privacy when I admitted to knowing the code to her phone and checking her text messages. Unfortunately I'm coming to face the reality that she really doesn't want to save this marriage and I need to start looking into moving on.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

So very sorry. Frankly, it's disgusting. She thinks she has your number (ATM #2) .

You gave her a clear choice. She should move out. Go dark. You've had your say. Start the paperwork ASAP. Filing immediately still gives her time but puts real pressure on her to make up her mind. 

Invasion of privacy? Get real! 

Start the 180. It'll help you become focused and help detach. She has no problem detaching from you because she has him. Click the 180 link at the bottom of my post.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Man that sucks. Sorry to bring up a sore point but you know your wife is an accomplished liar. She *SWORE ON YOU CHILD'S LIFE *that she didn't have sex and that it was "nothing" - that was just days ago.

Now she admits she's in love with him. Sorry, but she's been in love with him for about 3 yrs. Please have a DNA test done on that child immediately. You reall need to establish paternity for all sorts of reasons.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I totally agree with walkonmars. She swore on your child's life she did not have sex with him and now she admits it and tells you she is in love with him. The fact that she tells you this indicates the following:
1. You would never and I mean never be able to believe in anything she says in the future.
2. She says she loves him which means you can guarantee that they had sex a whole lot more times than once.
3. You need to get tested for STD's.
4. You need to contact a good lawyer immediately.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

BobSimmons said:


> I find it hilarious how often people boldly claim "YOUR WIFE HAS DEFINITELY SLEPT WITH OM!!


The collective wisdom of TAM is based on experience that has proven itself out again and again in just these circumstances. 

*confusedfrustrated* - what you are going to find is that when you seize control by filing and doing the 180 that you will be immune from her manipulative tactics and will begin to look pathetic to you.

So long as she can eat cake and have you on the side, she has all the power and time in the world. Remove that starting now. You'll be in your way to healing straight away. Good luck to you and thank God you know.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I also forgot to mention that she had the gall to call it an invasion of privacy when I admitted to knowing the code to her phone and checking her text messages. Unfortunately I'm coming to face the reality that she really doesn't want to save this marriage and I need to start looking into moving on.


I'm sorry this is happening to you.

If it seems that the posters on this forum know more about your wife than you do, it's because it probably is true.

Cheaters follow a script. It's like a bad TV movie where you know what is going to come next. The "it was just a kiss" comment is right out of the script. The anger over the "invasion of privacy" is right out of the script also.

The swearing on the life of her children - right out of the script. 
As a matter of fact, it is an inside joke among some of the posters here that the second the spouse swears on the lives of the children you KNOW they are lying.

So, right now, you're wife has admitted to a physical affair with this man, she refuses to end it, and to allow you to verify it is over. She is unapologetic and says she loves the other man. If she is following the script, she is blaming you for almost all of it on you and your lack of attention. Funny how she didn't pay you much attention, or speak up about it.

From what you posted about the first "emotional affair," I would question whether that affair was physical as well. I rarely post this type of comment, but in this case, due to the timing, I suggest getting a DNA test done on your daughter (don't tell your wife if you don't want to). Emotional affairs where the pair have physical access to each other - like co-workers - very rarely remain "emotional" only for very long - they turn physical very, very quickly.

You have handled her past indiscretion very poorly and your wife has suffered little consequence for her action. She has lost major respect for you as a result. She can't believe you have put up with her "emotional" affair in the past without demanding more consequences. You are too available and needy and she feels you always will be there for her no matter what, thus she doesn't value you. She values the other man, because he would in no way tolerate the behavior you have tolerated. She sees this as him having higher value than you.

She feels that you are desparate to stay with her and that you will never leave her. This is obvious over her threatening to divorce you if you made any waves over her current affair. It would be laughable if it weren't somewhat true - you value the marriage much more than she does, she is willing to give you the ultimatum because she is confident you will back down.

Your wife probably hasn't told you this, and she probably won't verbalize it, but she looks at you as incapable of attracting another woman. She can't believe she ever was attracted to someone so weak and needy. She is attracted to confident men who are not afraid of losing her and who refuse to put up with her obvious bvllsh1t. I'm not saying this to be mean, but this is how the cheaters think. You look at yourself as a "nice" guy, she looks at you as a "weak" guy. She thinks you are only "nice" because you are desparate to keep her, not because you genuinely are "nice."

If you want to save your marriage, sit down with your wife, tell her you love her, that you fell in love once, and that you could do so again, but not if the other man is in the picture. Tell her that you don't want to divorce her, but you will if you have to, because no matter what, even though you love her so much, you have too much pride, dignity, and self respect to stay in the marriage while she carries on an affair right under your nose and lies to you about it. Give her the following conditions:

1. She ceases all contact with other man. She leaves her job or transfers where she no longer will come in contact with other man. This is not some possible future occurrence, but a definitive step she agrees to with a timeline for when it will be done.

2. As you have already found out, there are hundreds of ways to communicate with someone without leaving any footprint, such as call/text records. Still, she must become transparent to you, give you access to her communication devices and passwords, even her work email until she leaves the job. She agrees to delete nothing until after you have looked at it.

3. She agrees to handwrite a no contact letter to the other man, which she gives to you for proofreading and you send it to him certified mail. The letter contains no terms of endearment or niceties, just that your wife wants no further contact from him, and that if he does attempt to contact her, she will file harassment charges against her both with HR and with the police.

4. She agrees to get tested for STDs and pregnancy. Affair sex is always unprotected sex.

5. If she doesn't agree, file for divorce, blow up the affair to HR, expose the affair to the other man's close family and friends, let them know he has been having an affair with your wife and breaking up a marriage with a young child, and ask them to influence other man to let your marriage fail or succeed without the outside pressure of an affair. Then expose the affair to your and her family and friends, tell them that she is having an affair and refuses to end it, and ask them to call her to influence her to try to work on the marriage.

Don't plead, cry, whine or beg. Be confident and strong. The situation doesn't look good for your marriage, no matter what you do. At least this way you get to hold onto some dignity and self-respect. At least this way, you are not living for weeks or months in the pain of "limbo," waiting for her to decide to pick you or him, while she flaunts her affair right under your nose.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I'm hoping to get some good feedback and other things that I need to consider as I weigh my options in moving forward with my life, with or without my wife.
> 
> As I mentioned, we have been married for nearly 5 years and dated for nearly 2 years before getting engaged. As nearly everyone, we had a passionate stage at the beginning followed by growing more comfortable with one another.
> 
> ...


You can't "nice" your wife out of her affair. "Nice" will not save your marriage. You have to break up the affair.

If you choose to expose to HR, other man's family/friends, and/or your family/friends, your wife will go ballistic. She will be upset at you ending the affair. Just tell her you are fighting for her and fighting for your marriage. And all you did was tell the truth.

If she thinks your conditions for reconciliation are controlling, tell her that you can't control her, you can only control yourself and what you are willing to accept and not accept in a marriage. And you are not willing to accept being cheated on and lied to about it.

If she complains about giving up her "privacy," tell her privacy is for the bathroom, everything else is "secrecy," and there is no place for secrecy in a marriage.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

After a spouse who's cheated threatens to divorce you because you are 'bothering' thier affair partner, there is only one appropriate response to this: 

FILE FIRST!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Only a kiss? Maybe. Did they have sex? Perhaps. Can you reconcile; even so? Of course you can! The Burn the Cheaters Down Brigade want everyone to throw every cheater out put their belongings in a pile on the lawn and change the locks. But do you want to be that bitter? I don't think you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Only a kiss? Maybe. Did they have sex? Perhaps. Can you reconcile; even so? Of course you can! The Burn the Cheaters Down Brigade want everyone to throw every cheater out put their belongings in a pile on the lawn and change the locks. But do you want to be that bitter? I don't think you do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gosh MM, did you read the thread?


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

I can verify that sometimes it is indeed only a kiss and nothing more. When I was in Iraq, I had a female kiss me. I didn't kiss her; I didn't know she was going to kiss me. After she did it, I told her I had to go and left it at that. I had very little to do with her after that. My only regret was being in the position for her to do something like that. Come to find out, she had herpes. Sooooo, not only am I glad we didn't do THAT (it makes me shudder, the whole idea of cheating in general), but I'm glad I remained faithful to my wife. And yes, I eventually told my wife about it. She actually asked me one time if anyone had ever tried to kiss me. She was thinking it was another one of her friends but it wasn't. It was the female in Iraq. Now, I know this is the exception and not the rule. I'm just saying it's entirely possible. I do think there will be other signs, though, if it was more.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

chapparal said:


> Gosh MM, did you read the thread?


Yes. I did. Still can't understand why people think they can cheat without any consequences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

So now you know that not only has she been having full on sex with him, she also is continuing to do so.

That's why she won't stop contact etc, she intends to continue having sex. And she's defiantly told you so through her actions.

At this point you need to act strong and swiftly, 
1. Take the threat of filing off the table - get to a lawyer and file. You can always stop it down the road if she comes around.
2. Exposé at the work place. Go read malcom's thread. That's what he did to stop his wife and her boss and now she's back trying to get him not to divorce her.

You need to do these things today, to show you won't cower under her threats of leaving, the truth is she's already left. She's been freely choosing to give her body to the OM for sex. She's no longer actively your faithful wife. She's current the woman who lives in your house who views herself as belonging the OM sexually.

So her threat is false because she's already left. The thing now, is can you act to break up her other relationship and then see if you start your marriage again.

Going after their jobs is key here. The OM will dump her in a heartbeat to safe himself.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> Man that sucks. Sorry to bring up a sore point but you know your wife is an accomplished liar. She *SWORE ON YOU CHILD'S LIFE *that she didn't have sex and that it was "nothing" - that was just days ago.
> 
> Now she admits she's in love with him. Sorry, but she's been in love with him for about 3 yrs. Please have a DNA test done on that child immediately. You reall need to establish paternity for all sorts of reasons.


Wife: ILYBINILWY
Translation: I'm fooking somebody else.

Wife: I swear on the kid's lives we never had sex.
Translation: We have fooked so many times, I don't even know the number. And it was the best ever.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I also forgot to mention that she had the gall to call it an invasion of privacy when I admitted to knowing the code to her phone and checking her text messages. Unfortunately I'm coming to face the reality that she really doesn't want to save this marriage and I need to start looking into moving on.


Everyone knows adultery and cuckoldry is no big deal, especially compared with looking at your wife's phone. That's unforgivable. DNA the kid.

Now, here's a golden opportunity for you to move on to younger and hotter things. Get in the shape of your life so you will be prepared after the divorce is final.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Sigh I get to be Mr. Mean again. yay (sarcasm)

Original Poster

STOP BEING A DOORMAT!

If she does not agree to end all contact with complete transparency FILE DIVORCE NOW.

STOP BEING A DOORMAT!

EXPOSE NOW
On facebook with other man BY NAME
To all friends and family
Im rather Meh on the expose at work thing but whatever

STOP BEING A DOORMAT!

Just because you file divorce does not mean you have to finish it.

YOU ARE PLAN B. MOVE ON

To reconcile she MUST do ALL of the conditions otherwise you are setting yourself up for discovery day 2.

What state/ country are you in?
ages?
Being a cuckold is FAR worse for a child than a child of divorce.

Never cry in front of her. This place is a safe place for your emotions and frustrations.

Agree DNA the kid. And Im not big into it but the time periods coincide.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

File expose everywhere and I'm sorry but yes DNA the kid.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I also forgot to mention that she had the gall to call it an invasion of privacy when I admitted to knowing the code to her phone and checking her text messages. Unfortunately I'm coming to face the reality that she really doesn't want to save this marriage and I need to start looking into moving on.


Man what a terrible few days you've had. Hang on- it may get nasty.

Right now your wife is in the fog of her affair - it is not over. The only thing that seems to snap them out of this is to expose the affair far and wide. Since it's a workplace affair, it is likely a good idea to inform their HR department of it and demand the other man or your wife be reassigned.

Your wife mistakenly refers to her phone as a form of privacy. That is incorrect. What she was wanting is SECRECY. There is NO right to secrecy in a marriage. Privacy (like using the restroom alone), yes. But NEVER secrecy.

I can't tell you how critical it will be to do the "180" now and prepare to move on with your life without her. This will be the hardest thing you will likely ever do, but it's vital. As so many of the other posters will tell you, you HAVE to be willing to lose the marriage, to have any chance at rescuing it. I am not sure if R is even an option you are considering (I could not, after a long PA and the lies afterward), but you might be made of better stuff than I am.

Keep coming here to give updates and get the best advice on this awful subject.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

She said she'll file? Call her on that bluff.

"Honey don't worry about filing, I've already taken care of it. You can be happily ever after with your man, no need to fight over trash."

Then start the 180 
The Healing Heart: The 180


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Another one that swore on her kids..I wish one of these days we would be wrong about it..


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

To find out the extent of the betrayal, try to recover all her deleted messages and read them.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

confusedfrustrated said:


> Thankfully tomorrow is my first appointment with a therapist as I look to move past this and continue to show my self confidence. i sincerely appreciate all the advice provided so far. It has been very supportive.


Wrong. your first apointment should be with a shark of a lawyer.


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## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

Thankfully over the past 18 hours I've had the chance to talk with a really close friend and a therapist. I have also joined a local support group and have contacted a recommended local lawyer to discuss my options. 

I appreciate all the advice provided to date. With so much going on in my head, so many emotions I'm becoming clouded on what action and steps need to be taken. Regardless I have come to terms with the fact that my marriage (whatever was left of it) is likely ruined and am set to move on. I will listen to my wife but I'm preparing to move on with my life. 

I'll provide an update sometime in the future but likely won't be back for a week or so while I sort things out in my head.


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## confusedfrustrated (Mar 31, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> To find out the extent of the betrayal, try to recover all her deleted messages and read them.


unfortunately I don't think this is possible as they were sent via iMessage on an Apple device. I tried to track it down with a backup but have been unsuccessful to date.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

confusedfrustrated said:


> unfortunately I don't think this is possible as they were sent via iMessage on an Apple device. I tried to track it down with a backup but have been unsuccessful to date.


I don't have an iPhone, so I can't check whether this will work for myself. Here's the link.

How to Recover iMessage from iPhone

Hope it helps


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

any updates confused


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## amr1977 (Mar 2, 2013)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I also forgot to mention that she had the gall to call it an invasion of privacy when I admitted to knowing the code to her phone and checking her text messages. Unfortunately I'm coming to face the reality that she really doesn't want to save this marriage and I need to start looking into moving on.


From everything you have said about your wife and your relationship up to this point I think you will be a lot happier without her. I actually really appreciate my ex's affair in retrospect because had she not cheated we might have gone on for several more years in what was a mediocre relationship in the best of times.

Also, get tested for STD's ASAP and lawyer up.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

In most cases kissing is just trickle truth. They have to admit a little but try to minimize it. But if you have looked around here you know that by now.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Stonewall said:


> In most cases kissing is just trickle truth. They have to admit a little but try to minimize it. But if you have looked around here you know that by now.


 For those that are still telling the OP that it was more than just a kiss, he already knows that it was more than just a kiss and told us yesterday that* "She did admit that they have had sex and that she still loves" the other man. 
*


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Another one that swore on her kids..I wish one of these days we would be wrong about it..


Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but I've never heard of anyone swearing on their kid's lives about anything other than in the false denial of adultery. 

It's an odd thing to come up with.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

OP- I wish you strength and healing. I have been in your shoes- not exactly the same scenario, but had a cheating wife. I chose the path of divorce and have rebuilt my life. While the process sucked, the result has been successful. I have also read stories of successful R.
Bottom line, keeping pushing forward, it really will get better once you decide on a path and execute your action(s). You can find happiness in your life again.

All the best
WD


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

confusedfrustrated said:


> Well.....those that felt that it was more than just a kiss have had their assumptions proved correct. I confronted my wife today and told her a number of things that I had been feeling including that there must be absolutely no contact. She did admit that they have had sex and that she still loves him. I am hesitant to expose the affair but did contact him directly and he did not answer my calls. He then texted my wife and said that I had been reaching out to him and she told me to stop or she would file. Ha! I find it sad and funny that she still thinks she has a card left to play and that this would actually get under my skin and upset me! He isn't married but does have kids.
> 
> We fought long tonight about all of the issues but I held my ground that cheating was not tolerable and that I wouldn't consider staying if she did not agree to no contact. I can't believe that I'm still or was ever in the denial stage or that I was naive enough to believe that it was just a kiss. She said that she wasn't "ready" to answer all of my questions tonight. I guess I'm ready to answer them for her by preparing to move on. I had a long conversation with one of my closest friends that encouraged me to give it time but I'm not sure that we can ever recover from the cheating and lying.
> 
> Thankfully tomorrow is my first appointment with a therapist as I look to move past this and continue to show my self confidence. i sincerely appreciate all the advice provided so far. It has been very supportive.


You should have insisted on NC at he earliest evidence of the EA. You may have been able to catch it prior to the EA. Indeed get a DNA test done. 

You should also immediately demand she quit her job and go immediate NC with this guy. No fond fair well. No tearful good byes. No last chance to have sex.

Since you waited so long though she probably will refuse. You then must expose this to her work ... immediately.

This was not your fault but you unfortunately did not take stonger action when it was needed. being on opposite shifts was a prime motivator here allowing this single guy to poach your wife. This is on her certainly but trying to convince you that inaction has made this worse.

And again ... get the DNA test done. This was her choice.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

TRy said:


> For those that are still telling the OP that it was more than just a kiss, he already knows that it was more than just a kiss and told us yesterday that* "She did admit that they have had sex and that she still loves" the other man.
> *


Thanks, your shouting has now given me a headache. I didn't need that, my marriage is enough of a headache.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Stonewall said:


> Thank you *Sam Kineson*. Now, back on your medication!


hadn't thought of that guy in a while.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

confusedfrustrated said:


> I will listen to my wife but I'm preparing to move on with my life.


What more do you need to hear from her after what she already told?
She's deeply involved with OM, it's a full blown romantic, sexual affair, she's in love with him, she won't stop her affair. She's gone.
I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, you are going to mourn this marriage and it will takes time. Your heart will take its time to heal but the steps are clear and what you need to know, your closure it's here already. 
Dissolve the marriage practicaly (lawyers) and detach from thew woman that hurt you and doesn't love you anymore (180, letting go, moving on).

Hang in there man.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Stonewall said:


> Thank you Sam Kineson. Now, back on your medication!


 Wow, talk about showing your age, Sam Kineson has been dead for over 20 years.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Loved him in the movie back to school.


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