# BUSTED! 2 wrongs dont make a right in cheating



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Do 2 wrongs sometime negate each other instead of just not making a right? So my wife (the one with the low desire level) isnt very technical. When we stopped swinging (see my other posts), it was because I had revoked our "permission slips." As far as I know (I THINK I believe my wife...read on), my wife never slipped and did anything in person with anyone after that time (around Feb 2009). We had a 3-some together that was my (bad) idea...let me clarify that...we both wanted to have a 3-some and it was a bad idea but I was not the one pushing for this, it was a mutually bad decision. My wife apparently never came (read on) during that 3-some.

After the 3-some, we started towards counseling...me because of grief over my sister's impending death from cancer...my reason turned into mainly concern about my spouse and marriage...my wife came to counseling because I basically told her that it was bullsh*t that she could work on her body (losing weight via personal training) for hours a day but not spare an hour every week or so to work on our f*cking marriage.

The counseling HAS spurred me into a lot of self-examination because, while my wife would never come up with any thing I could improve on for the most part (besides not nagging her to come home by a certain time when she has a girls night if I didnt agree to a limit up front), I know there must be things I could do better as a husband. 

This search led me to a book called Passionate Marriage and has helped me start to break free from our codepdency, what the book calls borrowed functioning...a reflected sense of self.....and to become a person that is interdependent with my wife but does things for her out of love, not for reasons that aren't as good as they seem.

So the sex thing that I've written about in prior posts has become a bit weird. It's almost like, when I read a chapter in this book that combines marital and sexual counseling, I act it out. We had agreed in May...after my sister died and during what I think was our first (only?) meeting together with the counselor....to try and work on building desire in my wife. I had agonized since the Fall of 2008 when my wife pulled away from me emotionally (I think because of an emotional affair at work, however unintentional it may have been on her part) as to why she didn't want me...the swinging seemed like a good idea but only made me hurt worse because my wife had desire for other men that exceeded her long-term desire for me....I took not being wanted sexually as a rejection of who I was as a person. 

The Mrs got pregnant (sure as f*ck hope it's mine since it's over 2 months since she had sex with any other man (as long as she is being truthful there) at the end of May but we didn't know until the beginning of July. I think being pregnant, even if she didn't know, didn't help her want to be in the mood for sex...plus there were issues between us that were yet to be uncovered. I still tried to work on desire with her but she's not wired to be self-examining apparently. Here recently we agreed to a compromise where I would get sex maybe twice a week...she should try to have desire and definitely be emotionally present during the sex....and in return I would stop trying so hard to fix things sexually/desire-ly  because that always led me to be made and beat her up verbally (not in a demeaning way but just "why don't you work on this with me?!?!?"

We had sex twice under the compromise as I recall. The first time she used her vibrator...she claims because it would help her come faster, something important to her while
she is uncomfortable with this pregnancy...I thought it was an OK session, definitely not earth-shattering but she was not checked-out mentally as far as I could tell.
The last time we had sex, we had a long talk before about how I was changing as a man and how I could not do anything to hurt her...so if she was only having sex with me out of obligation but she hated it, then I couldn't agree to the compromise. She convinced me that she was doing this out of love to take care of her man, so we proceeded.

Since that last time, I've really not felt any desire towards her. I haven't felt much anger either over her past "wrongs" either. I notice other women as I always have but there hasn't been much of the "damn I wish I could be with a woman like that who desires me...not forever and in place of my wife but just to take care of my sexual "needs."

Being a person who loves sex and being close with a woman, this lack of desire/interest is kinda scary or different or I don't know what to call it.....

So after that long lead-in...........I was working on my wife's computer now that she's taken the password protection off of it. I had deleted her swingers email (gmail) account a while back because I figured she didn't know how (she doesn't). Tonight I uninstalled the 2 chat programs she used to use to talk to the swinger guys....and for the record I swung too and enjoyed the sex and chatting with women who could be open with me. When I went to delete the folders used by these programs, I found and read
2 chat logs...one with some guy she never f*cked in which she says I was (during and before the swinging period) basically like a roommate to her.

IN THE OTHER LOG with a guy she f*cked once and loved to talk to, she says a lot of things that were worrisome....after the swinging stopped, it took many weeks for me to decide that I didn't want her chatting with these swinger guys even if she never would put her words into action with them...she refused my requests so I gave her an ultimatum: either put no man above me or get the f*ck out of this relationship. She reluctantly agreed. It took a long time before I stopped having a sense that she was cheating on me or considering it but I reached that point.

SO TONIGHT, in that 2nd chat log, I found out that 3 WEEKS after the ultimatum and agreement from her to stop chatting, she was saying that, if this guy from a city an hour away could find a way up here or if she weren't watching our daughter, they'd be hooking up. Oh yeah, it gets better...THIS WAS WHILE I WAS ON A VERY RARE TRIP OUT OF TOWN FOR A WEEK TO SPEND MY SISTER'S LAST DAYS OF LIFE AS A FAMILY! I must have had a sense while I was half a country away because I felt the need to ask her for a picture this one night when I wanted the company of a woman so bad I would have gone to a bar to pick one up or gotten a hooker...I was dealing with the ugly, slow death that it lymphoma cancer and here my wife is talking about cheating on me.

Because I am totally an open book to my wife...comfortable or not to her...I called her at work and told her that, while I should not have read her logs, she should not have been talking to this guy after she agreed to stop...her words in the log were that i kept her on a "tight leash" (I think I actually used that term in an argument with her back then...maybe I kept her on a tight leash because she WAS considering cheating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

My wife said tonight that, what I did was wrong when I violated her privacy but that she knew her actions weren't right either. I told her that I'm strangely not angry and that I have been working SO HARD on becoming a better man. I made it clear that I DO NOT WANT her to stay with me out of obligation as she said at one point in the chat...DONT STAY WITH ME because our daughter would miss having her dad around all the time....DONT STAY WITH ME because it's easier than leaving.....

*****and I didn't say this to her this time but did in an empassioned speech the day before our 8th wedding anniversary and 9th anniversary of being together******

BUT ONLY BE WITH ME FOR THE RIGHT REASONS

MARRIAGE IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE TO BE IN TIME AND TIME AGAIN

I AM A PERSON WORTH LOVING AND I AM NOT HERE TO BE YOUR ROOMMATE

I AM A GOOD MAN AND, IF YOU DECIDE ON THE EVE OF OUR ANNIVERSARY TO CHOOSE ME AGAIN, THEN I WILL WORK WITH YOU ON THIS DESIRE THING
AND ANY OTHER ISSUE THAT COMES UP IN OUR MARRIAGE

*********BUT IF YOU HAVE GIVEN UP ON TRYING WITH ME, THEN GET THE F*CK OUT NOW*********


I told my boss I want the day off tommorrow and am going to work remotely tonight to offset that time.

The miss and I need some time to talk and reconnect.

SHE HAS TO UNDERSTAND THAT HONESTY IS KEY...I MADE A CHOICE TO VIOLATE HER PRIVACY BUT NOT TELLING ME ABOUT HOW CLOSE
SHE CAME TO CHEATING IS WRONG AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE BEING WRONGED GOING FORWARD

I'd love some comments...and tonight before she gets home in 2 hours would be nice


----------



## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

You two are a mess...and not just any mess...a big farking mess.

I'm not sure WTF you are even married...

You want comments, the truth...this is toxic...too complicated to be rectified and should probably be cast aside like an STD.

Start over and do it right next time.

Preacher


----------



## Choose2love (Jul 28, 2009)

What would she say to you if you propositioned her with the last statement in your post? Would she stay or get out? I dont even know if that matters at this point. She is going out and having girls nights out, and chatting with other men and not into you. You are feeling so rejected by her it may be too late. This is a tough call, bc she is pregnant.


----------



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Choose2love said:


> What would she say to you if you propositioned her with the last statement in your post? Would she stay or get out? I dont even know if that matters at this point. She is going out and having girls nights out, and chatting with other men and not into you. You are feeling so rejected by her it may be too late. This is a tough call, bc she is pregnant.


What would she do if she were forced to answer that question today? Stay. The tough part about this discovery is that it IS from the period where things were pretty rough...we had just started into counseling...she was chafing under my yoke of mistrust...I suspected she might cheat and what do you know, she's on a chat log saying she would if she could.

When wifey got home last night, she didn't apologize right off the bat. I did end up getting mad but I think we're ok now. She insists that this was just talk, she has never physically been unfaithful, and she decided after I got back from that trip to another state to see my sister, to commit herself to working on our relationship.

There's always the inevitable "if you could talk to a guy about cheating on me and not tell me about it, how do I trust anything that comes out of your mouth?" I have to go with heart on this one...she is not the cheater type...she didn't even think she'd be able to go through with the swinging she wanted to try. I am surprised that the guilt over this didn't get the better of her and cause her to tell me about it proactively...but then again she was able to keep the secret about her past abuse for 8 years together.

I made it very clear to her that I am concerned that, if she were to get mad again, perhaps she would think about starting down the road to cheating. She says that will not happen...better not hon, cause you'll be kicked to the curb in a sec if it does.

Does anyone have any CONSTRUCTIVE comments about a secret like this being revealed and how to move forward? If I had not had thoughts about being with other women because of her lack of physical desire for me (which I told her about from around July forward), I probably would be more angry...or maybe it's the growing process that makes me realize that her opinion of me (lack of desire) doesn't determine who I am as a person.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm so surprised that you would swing, get all bent out of shape about it, and continue to carry on about those things now. You opened up this can of worms and invited into your marriage. You are reapign what you have sown. You've thrown your marriage away long ago. If you cared so damn much about it you wouldnt' be in the state you are in now, claiming to care so damn much about it.

Sometimes it is just too late.


----------



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

Choose2love: the chatting with other men stopped in April
from what I could tell on the chat logs...I only saw the 2 in the one chat program and had permanently deleted the other program, so who knows what was there. I'm going to choose to trust her on this when she says that she stopped talking to this the last guy once she started going to the counselor more routinely in early May. The girls night out are with her best friend...this gal told BOTH OF US we were stupid to swing and deserve what we got...as I understand she was in a relationship that led to divorce and they both cheated on one another towards the end.

Oh yeah, one other "funny" thing was that she says the counselor told her that me giving my wife an ultimatum to stop chatting with the men from the swinging days or I was going to leave, was wrong.... perhaps she misunderstood what the counselor said but there is no way that was the wrong move.... if you've asked and argued your point, what else can you do with any self-respect but say that your behavior is unacceptable and I'm prepared to walk if you don't change it.

Let's just hope she comes around...she knows I'm a good man, a good father when I'm not stressed, a dedicated husband...and lately a guy who is standing up for himself...perhaps as MEM says, she will repect the changes and stand I'm making. ...and hope that, once the baby is here and wifey is healed, that we can get back to what was simple(r) between us in the bedroom and in life.


----------



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

dobo said:


> I'm so surprised that you would swing, get all bent out of shape about it, and continue to carry on about those things now. You opened up this can of worms and invited into your marriage. You are reapign what you have sown. You've thrown your marriage away long ago. If you cared so damn much about it you wouldnt' be in the state you are in now, claiming to care so damn much about it.
> 
> Sometimes it is just too late.


Apparently the holy rollers are out in force today

If I didn't care about my marriage, I'd have left when things got tough.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

You left when you started swinging.


----------



## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm as far from being a holy roller as is possible. However, I'm in agreement with the ones you dismiss with that label. You effed up your marriage when you chose to swing.

You can't unring a bell.

Your wife has decided she wants other men besides you. She may have not started this whole nightmare, but she doesn't want to go back to you and try to recover normality.

Presuming that ever existed for you two.

I think you ought to end this socalled marriage.

And learn something about decent boundaries in caring relationships before you ever attempt a serious romance ever again.


----------



## Not Me Oh (Apr 20, 2009)

So we had some good talks since my original post.

Friday morning when she come home from her night shift I actually DID turn out to be angry with her...it was the whole "how can I trust you when you say you didn't physically cheat and won't again...if in writing you are saying you would cheat if you had the chance with this guy?" If things weren't so combative during that period, a discovery of a chat log like this would have me leaving her in no time flat...the same if she had actually gone through with f*cking this guy. After talking for an hour or so, I trust that she never acted on this chat and the logs stopped on this date. A discreet review of our cell phone bills (which cover calls, not texts) show no activity that would make me think they started calling instead of chatting online. I ended the conversation after I got her to apologize and convince me that what she was now telling me was the truth.

Saturday morning I felt like I had let her off too early the night before so we talked for a few hours. I had to find out more about why after we had stopped swinging she insisted upon keeping up contact with the guys from those days. She said at the time that she didn't think it was right that I ask her to give up friendships she had made from those days if she was committing to never taking it physical with those guys...so, even though I had made her via an ultimatum choose our marriage over chatting with these guys (in April), she did what she does when she feels controlled...the opposite of what she is told to do. 

The reason I had asked her in April to stop talking to these guys was that it made me uncomfortable. She didn't see the harm in it. I said that she was 2/3 of the way towards cheating on me if she would keep talking to guys when I asked her not to...guys that wanted her physically at some point and in some cases guys she'd been intimate with. I didn't expect for it to make me feel any better, but I got her to admit now that she understands why I wanted her to stop contact...what happened was what I thought could...because she was chatting with someone that stroked her ego and with whom she had been intimate, she found it easier to consider crossing the line into infidelity.

To those of you that would say that our marriage was over when we tried swinging...I say that you're not being constructive. Obviously my wife and I have made a decision to work on our marriage or we wouldn't be together now...so if you have nothing to say other than "you effed up by swinging," I'd appreciate it if you'd remain on the sidelines.

The rest of our conversation on Saturday was about how I felt my wife's promises this year had been empty. I told her that I understood how we got to a point where swinging seemed to both of us like a good or ok idea...why it wasn't....what we may have been trying to fix.... But multiple times since we started into marital counseling, she had committed to working on some different things and I wasn't seeing the effort. 

She claims that she did try and her efforts weren't appreciated, so she gave up...I called her on the carpet about this one before our August wedding anniversary and told her that giving up on trying with me means that I will leave our marriage...but if she will honestly continue to work on things, I won't leave her while we figure out this intimacy thing.

One of the efforts she said had made (before giving up) was to try and hold my hand more...snuggle more...perhaps I did call that "expected stuff" at some point and question why that was an effort...and that sounds like it was a bad move. If that was making an effort and I made her feel like she wasn't getting there fast enough, I could have made the problem worse.

But 3-4 weeks after our anniversary, she still hasn't made much of an effort to figure out why she feels the way she does about intimacy...and work to better it. I called that unacceptable on Saturday and told her that I will not be the only one working on our marriage. I will not examine myself for things I am doing wrong and work to be a better man if she is just going to be content to "coast."

For some reason we both left the 2 hour conversation Saturday feeling really better about the marriage. We had a good emotional hug and you could feel the optimism that things will get better. Saturday night we had a nice night out with her best friend at a bar...ate some grub and shot some pool. After her friend left our place, the Mrs and I played around a bit in bed..she didn't feel up for me getting her off but she did work on me...someone on this website said not to expect perfection if your partner isn't in the mood but is willing to take care of you, and I agree with that in this case.

Sunday I had my parents watch our daughter so wifey and I could work out some changes in our day to day marriage. She is always tired because of her night job but has for the most part resisted my efforts to rearrange things so she could sleep more. I told her Saturday that I was done allowing her lack of sleep to be an excuse and a pretty obvious passion killer in our marriage. So today we arranged things in a way that makes sharing the workload a lot better and allows her to get the rest that she and our unborn child need.

I believe that this time she will actually follow through with her commitment to work on our marriage and the intimacy issue. I believe her when she says that she doesn't know why she doesn't feel desire and that she wouldn't withhold sex from me to hurt me...but I also know that never spending any time looking at herself and the issues meant that they weren't going to spontaneously fix themselves. 

I've come a long way from when I believed the counselor and my wife when they said that there wasn't anything I could do better in myself to cause my wife to desire me more. Obviously stress and fatigue in my wife kill her desire...and smothering or controlling behavior on my part can lead my wife to feel trapped. I've become less codependent with her and am not afraid to expect more of her.

Anyhow, off to bed. Wish us luck.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Luck. I still think you're bailing a sinking ship. And by the way, I'm the one who made the perfection comment.

You keep digging up the past. When are you going to let it go? You made this situation. You built it and now you're still freaking out about it. Why? Your wife didn't want you before, she doesn't want you now. She may not know why but what does it matter why?

You may claim love, but you have had a funny way of showing it -- swinging, smothering, being controlling. Wanting something she doesn't want to give you. Most people would get the picture.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I don't think this is unfixable. While I personally would not swing, I don't think the fact that you did dooms your marriage. When you two mutually agreed to end the swinging, you had every right to demand all communicaiton with members of the opposite sex stop. 

Without saying a word - you should have your baby DNA tested shortly after birth. That will give you total peace of mind at least about paternity. 

There is a huge difference between being "firm" and being controlling/clingy. And ultimately you have to be sure you trust her. If you really don't, then really leave her. If you really do, then girls night out you leave her totally alone. 

It is rare that spouses have very closely matched sex drives over the duration of a long marriage. So the real key is how both the high drive and low drive spouses handle the imbalance. A truly loving spouse is able to make you feel desired even when their physical desire for you is low. Sometimes that is via mercy sex, sometimes through some proxy - massage - spooning for a while - whatever. 

So the question you ask yourself is this: Is my wife making me a high priority? Is the consistently making the effort so I feel desired and loved? If the answer is no.....













dobo said:


> Luck. I still think you're bailing a sinking ship. And by the way, I'm the one who made the perfection comment.
> 
> You keep digging up the past. When are you going to let it go? You made this situation. You built it and now you're still freaking out about it. Why? Your wife didn't want you before, she doesn't want you now. She may not know why but what does it matter why?
> 
> You may claim love, but you have had a funny way of showing it -- swinging, smothering, being controlling. Wanting something she doesn't want to give you. Most people would get the picture.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

I've never heard a man talk so passionately about fixing his marriage. Your wife is very lucky to have a husband who is so in touch with his emotions and so willing to try and see things from her perspective. It sounds to me like you are trying everything you possibly can to keep your marriage alive & healthy. Of course there are always 2 sides to a story, and I've only heard your side... however you do advocate for your wife, even while angry at her, so I feel like I am seeing a reasonably fair picture of your relationship. 

I have no advice, I'm looking for answers myself.. I just wanted to commend you on your honesty and your obvious devotion to your wife & marriage. I hope things get better for the two of you.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

michzz said:


> I think you ought to end this socalled marriage.
> 
> And learn something about decent boundaries in caring relationships before you ever attempt a serious romance ever again.


Ah jeeze, why so judgmental?? These are people who love each other. That were at their wits ends about how to cure a sexual difference (dysfunction?) and tried something unconventional. Most couples ignore their problems, refuse to discuss them and just smile and put on a happy face for the world. Obviously this couple was grasping at straws and while swinging probably wasn't the best answer (and he admits to this), at least they are trying.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

He doesn't sound passionate to me -- he sounds obsessive about something that happened in the past.

Look at it objectively -- he made a unilateral demand that she stop being with other men. It was clear in his mind but it wasn't clear in hers. So she took some time before getting there and continued to talk to other guys. Is that really such a surprise? She wasn't done yet. Just because he was, he expected his demand to be heeded. Would it have been nice if she said, OK and that was that? Sure. But she didn't feel the same way and she needed time to process and decide what she wanted for herself.

Now he's all bent out of shape and still beating her up about what happened THEN.

IMO, he needs individual therapy to deal with this. She didn't cheat on him. She just wasn't done when he wanted her to be done. And for him to expect her to jump at his command is ridiculous, given the nature of this relationship and the extremes they pushed in terms of boundaries.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

dobo said:


> He doesn't sound passionate to me -- he sounds obsessive about something that happened in the past.
> 
> Look at it objectively -- he made a unilateral demand that she stop being with other men. It was clear in his mind but it wasn't clear in hers. So she took some time before getting there and continued to talk to other guys. Is that really such a surprise? She wasn't done yet. Just because he was, he expected his demand to be heeded. Would it have been nice if she said, OK and that was that? Sure. But she didn't feel the same way and she needed time to process and decide what she wanted for herself.
> 
> ...


 
Here's a copy/paste from his first thread on this topic.. maybe you didn't read that one? It explains the swinging part better.. 

"The ground rules were that we had to check in with each other about our location for safety purposes
AND that we had to keep an eye on drifting emotionally
AND we would stop if either one of us was having problems dealing with the swinging."

It was agreed on by both of them that it stop if it starts causing problems.. In one post someone said, and maybe it was Hubby himself, that she was enjoying getting her ego stroked too much to stop. I'm thinking that's right on the money. 

He isn't asking her to jump at his command, instead he is requesting that she honor the agreement they made in the beginning. 

I agree that therapy is in order, but not just for him, for his wife as well. You say he sounds obsessive... he sounds to me like a man who loves his wife but is going crazy trying to fix their marriage by himself.. an impossible task that would make anyone nutty.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Right -- he asked her to honor the agreement. But she wasn't ready. So she didn't right away.

Again, if you look at the things they did in the marriage, thinking that you can just put the genie back in the bottle is naive at best. I think he needs to get realistic about what happened and why. And maybe then he can let this go.

He sounds like a man that wants absolute control over a situation that was out of control, but he wants that control in retrospect. It is almost ridiculous that a person who almost certainly had these tendancies prior, to enter into this sort of an arrangement in the first place.

I'd recommend solo therapy first. No way should he go into marital at this point. He needs to get a grip.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

dobo said:


> Right -- he asked her to honor the agreement. But she wasn't ready. So she didn't right away.
> 
> Again, if you look at the things they did in the marriage, thinking that you can just put the genie back in the bottle is naive at best. I think he needs to get realistic about what happened and why. And maybe then he can let this go.
> 
> ...


Surely you aren't saying that because the wife "wasn't ready... so she didn't..." that it's OK that she cheat (emotionally or physically)? There is a DISTINCT difference between sexual exploration that is agreed upon by both parties and infidelity. You don't seem to be making that distinction... and I can understand why, to some people ANY sex outside of the marriage bed is adultery, and so you figure since they both already condoned the adultery then why is he complaining.. is that the way you see things? 
If you look at them as two separate activities: 1) there was the swinging, and 2) there was the behind the back late night sexual chats in which she was emotionally unfaithful to him. The first was consensual and the second is/was not.

I agree that the swinging was a real bad decision.. but I don't think he knew she would become hooked it..

Then again I am here because my own marriage is in shambles so maybe I should just hush up and listen...


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I didn't say anything she did was OK. I'm just looking at this realistically. She did what she did. What does he want her to do about it now? She can't unring that bell any more than he can unring the reason they're here in the first place.

It is BECAUSE you can have no way of knowing where something like swinging is going to end that opening up that can of worms is stupid. Looking back, he should completely understand why it would be more difficult for her to give it up than it was for him. And then he should forget that portion of their lives and move on.

Their larger problem is that she's just not into him "that way" in general. The swinging only proved that it isn't a problem that she has with sex or men. It is a problem between them.

Anyway, sorry to hear about your marriage. Did you start a thread on what's going on?


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

Ok, I'm following your line of thinking now, Dobo, thanks for clarifying. I agree about the larger problem being her not being into him. Do you think that's fixable? Maybe if she shut off the computer and talked to him instead...

Nah, haven't posted a thread yet, I want to lurk around a bit & toss in my unsolicited two cents here and there before I jump in.....


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

Toss away! 

I don't know if their fundamental problem is fixable because I don't know why she feels this way about him. But I bet she knows more than she's willing to share. She's just afraid of the fallout. So, she avoids him with the computer.

He's going to have to accept that there are some things in life you can't change and you can't fix. Maybe if he stops trying to "fix" things and just lives life with her things will find a new but natural rhythm even if it isn't exactly the one he wants. But so long as he keeps beating this old, and very dead horse, she's going to have her guard up. He needs to let go, hold on loosely, and let her open up.

He should look into yoga and learn to breathe.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

dobo said:


> Toss away!
> 
> I don't know if their fundamental problem is fixable because I don't know why she feels this way about him. But I bet she knows more than she's willing to share. She's just afraid of the fallout. So, she avoids him with the computer.
> 
> ...


Oh dear, I have to disagree again... I think the worst thing to do is to let it go and hope for the best. She MUST stop chatting about things sexual with other men. He _*isn't *_beating a dead horse, he's talking about _*current events*_... namely her being disloyal to her husband by berating him to other men online and talking with them about "hooking up"! See? 

I do agree that he should let the hurt from their swinging days go... but I don't think he blames only her for that... sounds like he understands that it wasn't such a smooth move and takes half the blame for that fiasco himself. 

His posts go into a myriad of issues and get confusing, but his chief complaint here (I think) is the online infidelity. I think he is bringing up all the other stuff (beating the dead horse as you call it) as a lead-in, as background, to his primary problem.. 

I may be a little biased because I so rarely hear a male speak so eloquently of his feelings and emotions... I don't think he grunted a single time during his posts.. ... I'm used to speaking with men who are slightly less in tune with these things... *coughcavemencough* .. hahahah


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

She has stopped chatting w/other men. That is past. That isn't present. He's only learned about this stuff now, so that's why it is so fresh to him.

I like your sense of humor. Glad you've joined us.


----------



## lorithehun (Sep 22, 2009)

dobo said:


> She has stopped chatting w/other men. That is past. That isn't present. He's only learned about this stuff now, so that's why it is so fresh to him.
> 
> I like your sense of humor. Glad you've joined us.


Oh well now do I feel silly... I even went back to reread and find the part that says she is currently chatting and won't stop... but apparently my skim reading skills aren't as sharp as I thought because that part isn't there....dammit, I hate it when I'm wrong.. 

I stand corrected, and thank you for the welcome.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dobo,
Why are you so hard on him? The sequence was:
- His wife withdraws from him sexually - does not tell him why - just does it
- This effects him the way it would effect most men, he thinks she is no longer really in love with him in the way that a man needs to be loved by his wife
- It turns out she is having an emotional affair with a guy at work during this time - while I think a PA is worse then an EA, an EA combined with a sexual withdrawal is true infidelity
- At wits end he suggests swinging - which I have posted was not a good idea - but - clearly she was ALL TO HAPPY to swing since she has no issue with sex per se, but rather sex with NMO
- When he calls an end to the mutually agreed upon swinging and is away for an END OF LIFE event, she is still trying to entice one of her lovers for a visit - and yes the EOL context matters

How can you possibly fault him more then her? And frankly your suggestion that he learn to breathe - accept that she just isn't that into him physically - seemed very condescending. 

It IS OK, that her desire level has fallen. It is NOT OK, that she is unwilling to tell her very loving, very motivated man what things he/they can do to make things more fun for her. I bet she could say just about anything to him, if it was in a constructive tone. 

If I were NMO I would be firmly, gently, persistently trying to "break the code" that will unlock her desire for him. But I would insist on at least some cooperation from her, and failing that - and I have never had to say this to my far better half, I would move for a separation. I just couldn't be with someone who had such a strong preference for being with other men and wasn't willing to help me work on the desire gap. 






dobo said:


> She has stopped chatting w/other men. That is past. That isn't present. He's only learned about this stuff now, so that's why it is so fresh to him.
> 
> I like your sense of humor. Glad you've joined us.


----------



## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I never said it is OK that her desire level has fallen. But you don't expect it to rise while she's still fighting old battles, do you?

Personally, I doubt she has any interest in him and both of them are playing a game where she doesn't want to admit it because then her entire life has to change, and he doesn't want to admit it because it is too hard to take. So they continue this game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see if she's interested in other men then the problem is about him. She's just not into him. Game over. I didn't want to be so blunt but there it is.


----------



## MrsPayne (Aug 26, 2009)

I have been reading your blog for a while now. I have been married for 11years. Since of lately over the last 2 years I have concidered swinging, I don't know why. My husband and I have spoken about this for some extended time, I don't have any secrets from him I respect him to much. I have writen to Dr Phil for some help or answers. The thought of swing sometimes consumes my mind, sometimes there is no thought of it at all. 

I got married when I turned 17 not because we had to, because we were so in love that we couldn't get enough of each other.
After 8years of marridge we had our first baby. Since our children 
my life has changed. 
I have always seen sex out of marrige as wrong, I was not raised like that. But since the children... 
I have only slept with my Husband and I somtimes wish that I had slept with a few guys before Him. Then I would not be feeling the way I do. It has noting to do with him, He is wonderfull, always put's my needs first, He is a wonderfull father I couldn't ask for someone better for my children. 
I just feel the desire to feel someone els, how would it feel.... My parents were very strict and now with them out of my life I feel free. I was boxed up long enough in my life. I was always expected to be the good gril, the sweet one that never have falt's. Well I do. I have never been drunk, or smocked and now I want to know how it feels to be drunk, but what would my kids think of their mother. 
Life is passing me by to quickly. I am getting older. If we swing now this feeling to feel someone els would go away.Would once be enough??? If I am older who would want to swing with a 40 or 50 year old. I am stil young and still think that I am sexy. Would it be best to just do it and get it behind me. Should I go for counseling, would it work??? 
We have logged into some swinging sites before, and put up our profile, but as soon as it's done my husband pulls the plug. He says that he couldn't share me, (I don't know If I could either), It's as thou I can't think rationaly about the swinging. I don't want to lose my husband I LOVE HIM to much. What if he likes swinging and I don't. Im not sure I would go through with it. 
We have been on chatting sites, and the first guy that I ended up talking to, well we ended up having siber sex I found it so exiting such a rush. Afterwards my husband asked me how far I was willing to go to keep the guy interested, I don't know? So we decided to end the chating. 
It's like a rollercoaster, sometimes the feelings are gone and then their back in fullforce. I don't know if someting triggers it. In a way I wish it would go away, and then in a strange way I wish it wont. The unknown is so exiting...... 
Some while back we went to the shops. A table of guys all looked at me when we pasted, I felt so sexy, such a rush. 
Once husband is suppose to say that your sexy. I don't know why I need the validation of other men, I don't know why I want them to look at me and find me sexy. 
My husband thought that the reason that I'm feeling like this was because of someting he did or didn't do. I have told him that this thing has every thing to do with me and noting with him. He realy is wonderfull. 
I would realy like some good advise as to weather to get this out of my sistem, will it ever go away??? Should I just ride this feelings and desire out. I realy don't know. I don't want to do someting I will later regret in life ( swinging or not swinging). 
Life is to short and I feel that I've missed out on a lot already. 
You have been on the other side of this. In a way I know you will understand. 
Is giving up someting pure realy worth it at the end. 
Marriage is a lot of work already with or without the complications once fantasies.


----------

