# FML



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Some of you know my backstory, some of you don't, so here's the short version:

Together 6 years, married 1 1/2. I am "normal" drive, wife is low/none. As you'll see if you read on, this was not at all apparent before.

Sex life is... bad. It's infrequent, there's a lot of rejection, it's usually on the same day(s), it's 100% initiated by me. But the sex is good, sometimes very good. When we started dating, it was great all around. Frequent, crazy, adventurous, like nothing I'd ever had before.

Yes, it's waned over the years, as expected (and I DID expect it, so it wasn't a shock!). It's the, to borrow a term from TAM, "trickle truth" that's coming from my wife that's had me on the verge of breakdown, and I'm wondering if I'm in the right for feeling this way.

So what's happened is this - I THOUGHT, when we started dating, that she was into sex. She was passionate, adventurous, into just about everything and anything and willing to try things. In retrospect, she probably didn't initiate back then, but it didn't matter. I wasn't turned down, it was at any time of the day, any day of the week, and she seemed extremely passionate and wanting. This did not go on just for the first few months, this was a solid 2 years.

Then it started slowing down. Fine. It was just as passionate, just less frequent. Then ever so slowly, by year six, it is almost just going through the motions now. It's basically duty sex with her participation (ie. not just "star fishing"). Again, fairly normal in marriage.

The problem is, this trickle truth I feel I've been fed over the past 3-4 years. Again, our sex life was not only frequent, it was passionate and sometimes crazy. Then all of a sudden, she starts making it known that she is not that into sex. Little comments like she doesn't think of sex, and never has. Doesn't fantasize, doesn't look forward to it, etc. She says she's always been like that. This turns into her believing she is asexual. Fine.

It comes out about 5 years in that she dislikes giving oral sex. (to be fair, she's only given me oral sex as a stand-alone act once in our time together), but it had ALWAYS been a part of our sex. Always. And it's not like she just went through the motions, she appeared passionate and hungry. She also swallows. She's very good at oral sex. Then, not long ago, she tells me flat-out, she HATES doing it, and always has. Swears it has nothing to do with me (and I believe her. Also I'm very very clean, fyi).

So my head is spinning, because over the last few weeks I've been thinking about how things have progressed over the years and putting all of these pieces together at one time has absolutely ruined my brain, and I don't know what to do.

So, in essence, I went from a good 2 years of thinking I was with a partner who LOVES sex and desires sex, to somebody who enjoys sex immensely but doesn't need it or want it necessarily, to somebody who detests certain acts and would happily live without sex, period.

And I promise you, I didn't read the signs the wrong way. There was no way to mistake her (apparently fake) passion for my c***, for sex, for sex with ME, for anything else. There was no way to tell that this was an act, which it apparently was. She's that good. I can't help but be a little graphic, but I never put my c*** in her face. She would go for it on her own, and go for it passionately. I used to have to pull it away from her if I was getting close, and she'd grab it tighter and tell me she doesn't care. I would have to physically remove myself from her mouth.

When we did have sex, she was vocal. Lots of noise, and lots of encouraging words, if you know what I mean.

It makes no sense to me. None. We've gone from this (for several years), to what we're at now - which is me now knowing that she's not NEARLY as passionate or into sex as she made me believe she was.

And yes, I'm mad, and yes I've told her this. I've told her I feel like she bait and switched me. Her reaction when I used those words was not one of being insulted. I genuinely don't think it crossed her mind that she was doing that, or that she was aware that that was a "thing".

She feels remorse, that I can tell. She did not know how badly I would take this, and I know she deeply regrets making me feel this way, let alone that she told me how she feels (or doesn't feel...) about sex.

I don't know how to react, and for the first time with her, I am not 100% sure I want to continue with her. Not because I love her any less, and not because I'm mad, or hurt. But because I truly do feel like I was bait-and-switched, no matter how subconscious it was on her part.

I wouldn't say I am HD. I don't require sex every day, or even more than once or twice a week. I would have sex 7 days a week if I could, but it's not a requirement. All I want, and all I ever wanted, was a partner who was as passionate about me as I was about them. And I thought I had this. For 2-3 years I thought I had this. And it turns out that not only was this not how she felt, it wasn't even close.

No, she's not cheating on me. I don't believe it has anything to do with me. She says she's never been interested or passionate or desired sex, ever. To her, it's just something you do. She's never been with someone as long as she's been with me, so I guess she's never got to this point before.

She knows she ****ed up, and I didn't have to tell her that for her to figure it out. My reactions to these things have said it all, and she DOES feel very remorseful. She knows that she should have kept status quo, even if that meant never divulging to me that she has no desire, no interest, and despises certain acts. I have no doubt about any of that. But she got so comfortable with me, with our relationship, that she felt she was able to tell me how she really feels, and that I wouldn't react as badly as I have. Stupid on her part, and she knows this now.

So. I don't know what to do. I feel as though I have lost my sexuality, my sexual identity. I now know that if I spend the rest of my life with her, I will never feel desired or wanted. And worse, I will never know what she is thinking when we do have sex. I will never be able to enjoy oral sex again (if it even happens). I will never know that if something I do to her, she has no interest in.

Our whole sex life was a lie, and I don't know how to proceed from here.

FML.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Having been in an even worse marriage w.r.t. sex, I can only say that it destroyed my love and respect for my ex, and after trying everything to change things (and failed), divorced her.

My take on this now is to set a time frame to see significant improvement, or get out. I wasted too many good years on an unhappy marriage, and would not do so ever again. I only hope relating my own experience will help people act quickly and decisively to pursue their own happiness and well-being.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

What is FML?

Most women are not comfortable enough about sex to admit they like it or want it. These statements are designed to test you. If you go all wussy, it reduces her sexual attraction to you.

Outside the bedroom, if I were to ask my wife if she liked certain things we do when we have sex, I'm sure she would say no. But I know that she likes them because her body tells me.

Don't get inside your wife's head. Your wife is one of the billions of women on the planet who need to tell themselves that in order to keep him / get him / attract him to me, I need to provide good sex to him. And ones she accomplished that, the sex was no longer necessary. Thus you already know they key to good sex with your wife. You must offer her something worth keeping, and you must assure her that she cannot keep it without sex.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It was hugely stupid of her to expect that you'd be okay with a wife who had no interest in sex, no passion for your c0ck and an aversion to oral sex. What the hell is wrong with her that she expected you to be okay with this? She was right to tell you, she was wrong to expect you to be okay with it!

Alex, this is clear bait and switch. This will NEVER improve. I can predict that because she actually expected you to be okay with her deception. This means she saw nothing wrong with it. This means she fully expects you to get over it and learn to live with it. She feels bad because you are hurting, but not bad enough to wonder if there is anything she can do about her lack of sex drive...if she really is asexual there is NOTHING that can be done.

Alex, do NOT try to accept this. You know this is a make or break thing with marriage contentment. Great sex doesn't make a great marriage but you can't have a great marriage without great sex!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I tend to agree with AP, but I'm just going to toss this idea out there: is it possible that she really did enjoy it in the beginning? The picture you paint of your first years doesn't evoke an image of a woman grudgingly doing things she doesn't enjoy. Is it possible that she is now gaslighting herself--rewriting history in her own mind to make you both believe that the enjoyment was never there in order to justify her current feelings of apathy?


ETA--Hicks, FML = F*ck My Life


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I think she did enjoy it at the beginning... but saying she hated it all along now is an easier way to get out of it... like she was so devoted to you that she even did stuff she didn't like and was never into. Yes, she should have kept her mouth shut. I understand you feel like you lost your sexuality. Feels like castration.

If my wife told me that, I would be very hurt. I can understand that she is not that into sex any more (for several reasons), but at least she never lied to me. She enjoys is when we have it and she always has. I know it's not me, it's her. Or maybe she hates it, but she is intelligent enough not to tell me...


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Any kids?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, Alex. I could be your wife, actually. For me, I know that few men would even date me long enough to get to know me if I didn't do what your wife did. It is tough on both of you, because she will soon find out that no one will want her since she is pretty much no drive. 

I have come to accept that, following my divorce, I will never date again. I have no drive, never really had one, but had sex so that I could have a special person in my life. The one thing I've learned from TAM is that if the sex isn't there, then it doesn't matter how great any other part of you is. It doesn't matter if I'm mature, responsible, a good mother, fun-loving, kind, giving, strong, etc. None of that matters to a man if it also comes with no drive. So, it's sad for both of you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, Alex. I could be your wife, actually. For me, I know that few men would even date me long enough to get to know me if I didn't do what your wife did. It is tough on both of you, because she will soon find out that no one will want her since she is pretty much no drive.
> 
> I have come to accept that, following my divorce, I will never date again. I have no drive, never really had one, but had sex so that I could have a special person in my life. The one thing I've learned from TAM is that if the sex isn't there, then it doesn't matter how great any other part of you is. It doesn't matter if I'm mature, responsible, a good mother, fun-loving, kind, giving, strong, etc. None of that matters to a man if it also comes with no drive. So, it's sad for both of you.


That's very commendable, but there are many men who are not interested in sex either. Won't be easy to find one, but keep looking!

My wife is what you say you are and she has no drive either (wasn't always this way), and this is the reason why I'm not leaving - or at least not right now. My reasons for leaving are different, mainly her refusal to go to therapy and fix herself... so we can resume our old marriage... but this is a different story altogether!


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

Are you willing to live the rest of your life feeling miserable and unwanted?

The only thing that will ever really change her back or make her realize that your needs are important is the fear of losing you.

Even if you go through it all and at the end she shows signs of your old wife, you can always get married again. Although, I think she has shown you her true colors. If she truly will never initiate, never make you feel wanted, never enjoy being intimate with you, you giving her an ultimatum with sex will only give you the fake version of what she was. 

It may be time to move on. Maybe you guys can stay friends and she can get what she wants out of the relationship, a friend that she doesn't want sex with. But you need more, so you should end the relationship (not friendship) and find someone that can really make you happy.

Good luck brother.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well if she's that good at faking it then she'd make a terrific prostitute


honest question, if she were willing to "fake it" again and satisfy you, would it be enough or would it just feel wrong since the toothpaste is out of the tube and you know that she isn't into it?


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, Alex. I could be your wife, actually. For me, I know that few men would even date me long enough to get to know me if I didn't do what your wife did. It is tough on both of you, because she will soon find out that no one will want her since she is pretty much no drive.
> 
> I have come to accept that, following my divorce, I will never date again. I have no drive, never really had one, but had sex so that I could have a special person in my life. The one thing I've learned from TAM is that if the sex isn't there, then it doesn't matter how great any other part of you is. It doesn't matter if I'm mature, responsible, a good mother, fun-loving, kind, giving, strong, etc. None of that matters to a man if it also comes with no drive. So, it's sad for both of you.


I agree with Surprise. It doesn't matter how great any other part of you is, if there are no kisses, no hugs, no loving moments shared together, no staring into each others eyes while you lay naked inside each other, no long passionate walks on the beach holding hands excited to get anywhere private so you can enjoy each other totally, and yes, sex. All those intimate acts above are replaceable with sex, because if intimacy is missing, there really is no marriage, no matter how good everything else is. Everyone else is just a really good friend.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

When are you going to ask her:

Why did you pretend to like all this stuff for years, when in fact you hated it? It was a huge deception. Why would you think any man would be ok with being lied to like that? 







alexm said:


> Some of you know my backstory, some of you don't, so here's the short version:
> 
> Together 6 years, married 1 1/2. I am "normal" drive, wife is low/none. As you'll see if you read on, this was not at all apparent before.
> 
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Alexm
Your story sounds so depressingly familiar, and it really sucks (or um doesn't in my marriage....).

What is strange in my situation is that the pattern has repeated TWICE. A few years ago I was about to ask for a divorce (I didn't, but maybe my wife recognized how serious I was). Suddenly sex was great - frequent, adventuresome. Then, just as it did the first time it slowly declined (over years), to where we are once again now.

Is it unconscious - the LD partner wanting sex but never being quite in the mood? Is it intentional and calculating - the LD partner thinking they can ween the HD partner away from sex?

In my case the excuse is almost always in the form of saying that sex will harm her in some way - not physically, but because she is exhausted, or has things that she needs to do, or things she has planned to do. It almost always is a case of indicating that if I really insist she will have sex, but that it will make her unhappy in some way.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

In Absentia said:


> That's very commendable, but there are many men who are not interested in sex either. Won't be easy to find one, but keep looking!


Thanks, IA. That may be, one day. Not sure how to ever get there, though. Funny thing is, I have been proposed to 4 times over the years. I'm pretty damn desirable in so many ways except that I just don't have a drive. I've been tested and my hormones are all normal. 

I'll be happy just being on my own anyway. Apart from some honeymoon periods when dating, the happiest times of my life were when I was single anyway....


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Sure sounds like she has changed. I agree with Fozzy's suggestion she really did like sex when single but now is rewriting history.

You've seen the suggestions before on this forum, MMSL and NMMNG. Do you think there are other factors which have affected her attraction to you? Have you gained a lot of weight, become a video game addict, etc?

There are some factors which could have caused a change in her, which then could suggest potential ways to seek a reversal. Could she have a hormonal issue? Is she depressed? Have the past couple of years been extraordinarily stressful or overwhelmingly busy? Could she have a history of sex abuse or other trauma? Does she have a relationship template in her mind that single sex is wild but married women are supposed to dislike sex?

Ultimately the reason doesn't matter, just that your relationship is something which you are happy to remain in. If you can identify a reason for the change you can perhaps initiate some kind of correction. But don't get bogged down in the diagnosis or the correction. It is up to her to realize if she has some kind of dysfunction and to then take whatever steps are necessary.

It could be she is just zero drive by her own biology, and was "paying her dues" in giving you hot sex when single to get what she wanted from you (marriage).

I would not blame you for divorcing her if you cannot have a fulfilling marriage. She may be happier long term, too, if the marriage were ended.


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## Joey2k (Oct 3, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, Alex. I could be your wife, actually. For me, I know that few men would even date me long enough to get to know me if I didn't do what your wife did. It is tough on both of you, because she will soon find out that no one will want her since she is pretty much no drive.
> 
> I have come to accept that, following my divorce, I will never date again. I have no drive, never really had one, but had sex so that I could have a special person in my life. The one thing I've learned from TAM is that if the sex isn't there, then it doesn't matter how great any other part of you is. It doesn't matter if I'm mature, responsible, a good mother, fun-loving, kind, giving, strong, etc. None of that matters to a man if it also comes with no drive. So, it's sad for both of you.


A man can have other friends to hang out with and talk to, but sex is a need (yes, NEED) he can only legitimately meet with one person. He gets ONE person to have a sexual relationship with. He chooses that one woman, and then she decides she's not interested? How is he supposed to be ok with that?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Joey2k said:


> A man can have other friends to hang out with and talk to, but sex is a need (yes, NEED) he can only legitimately meet with one person. He gets ONE person to have a sexual relationship with. He chooses that one woman, and then she decides she's not interested? How is he supposed to be ok with that?


Guess I missed the part in my own post where I said he is supposed to be ok with that? Huh....


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Hicks said:


> Don't get inside your wife's head. Your wife is one of the billions of women on the planet who need to tell themselves that in order to keep him / get him / attract him to me, I need to provide good sex to him. And ones she accomplished that, the sex was no longer necessary. Thus you already know they key to good sex with your wife. You must offer her something worth keeping, and you must assure her that she cannot keep it without sex.


That's the problem man. This is how things apparently WERE for a long time. Then she outright tells me she has no interest in sex and that she's essentially doing it for my benefit. Gee, thanks. If things were good, even if it was not entirely true, why come out and ruin it like that?

Furthermore, she showed such a passion during it (including oral sex on me) that, not only did I not think she didn't like it, but it made me think she REALLY liked it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> I tend to agree with AP, but I'm just going to toss this idea out there: is it possible that she really did enjoy it in the beginning? The picture you paint of your first years doesn't evoke an image of a woman grudgingly doing things she doesn't enjoy. Is it possible that she is now gaslighting herself--rewriting history in her own mind to make you both believe that the enjoyment was never there in order to justify her current feelings of apathy?


It's hard to say. My brain is conflicted about this, but my heart doesn't believe it, and I'll tell you why.

She DOES enjoy sex, honestly. She doesn't hate it at all. I've said this in other threads, her physical reaction is there in spades. She has no problem enjoying the hell out of it once we get going.

The problem, in my eyes, is that she (consciously or subconsciously, I don't know...) made it appear that she was passionate, sexual and desired me. This includes oral sex on me.

Although initiation has historically been me, she was never one to turn me down, and once we got going... wow.

Oral sex: The very first time we were intimate, she went right for it. A little bit of passionate kissing, fondling, and before we could even get on the bed, she was on her knees. Over the years, oral sex was either part of foreplay, occasionally during sex, and sometimes after, to finish me off. I never asked her for it, moved her head towards my ****, moved my **** towards her mouth. It was 100% her. And it was damn passionate, inspired, and it sure as hell looked as though she was enjoying herself. And she has never not swallowed.

I never once took it for granted that she did this. I just thought "I am a lucky lucky man, and those poor guys who's wives never do this." (or you women whose men won't do oral on you without a fight, or ever, or poorly).

This is why I say "FML". There is NO going back from this. I took NONE of this for granted at all, ever. I didn't brag to my buddies about my porn sex or my wife who swallows. To learn that this was a... lie, ugh.

I spent a long time with a woman who, although had a minimal sex drive, was not all that passionate or inspired in bed. Once or twice a year I might have been lucky to have walked away from sex feeling properly satisfied, physically and emotionally. The rest of the time, it was a means to an end. And I was fine with it. It's what it was from the beginning, there was no faking it. I/we tried to spice things up, but it didn't work out. She would initiate sex, and she DID want sex, but... she just wasn't very good at it, or all that interested in BEING good at it, I guess.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Coldie said:


> Are you willing to live the rest of your life feeling miserable and unwanted?
> 
> The only thing that will ever really change her back or make her realize that your needs are important is the fear of losing you.
> 
> ...





Almostrecovered said:


> honest question, if she were willing to "fake it" again and satisfy you, would it be enough or would it just feel wrong since the toothpaste is out of the tube and you know that she isn't into it?


No. Flat out no. The quality of the sex is secondary to me. She can blow my mind every single time, but if I know she's doing it solely for my benefit, it takes away 99.9% of any enjoyment for me. I would rather have a partner who is just a train wreck in bed, but who is genuinely passionate and WANTS it and isn't doing a damn thing she doesn't want to do for my benefit only.

If I wanted mind-blowing sex, I can pay for that. What I want is a healthy attitude and for it to be mutual. For me to be desired and to feel like a man. Telling your husband you do things solely for them or for the marriage is a slap in the face to my manhood. I'd feel like a john, only instead of paying cash, I'm paying through other methods. It turns into a quid-pro-quo thing.

She enjoys being intimate with me, but not at all in the way she made it seem she did, if that makes sense. She does not hate sex, or even dislike sex (unless that revelation is coming next... sigh). She DOES hate oral sex, however, and like I said, if you asked me 2, 4, 6 years ago, I could have sworn she got off on doing it to me.

Again, it's not about the quality of the physical sex that's at issue here. That is (still) good. It's entirely about the revelation that she does not at all feel even remotely the way I thought she did about sex that I was led to believe she did.

If this was me projecting things on her for all those years, then I would be kicking myself and saying "my bad", I read you wrong. There is no way on god's green earth that any man alive would have even remotely thought she didn't care for sex. Quite the opposite. I thought at one point that she was insatiable. She has always been capable and WILLING to have multiple orgasms. After about 5, she's had enough and can't keep going (but she has once or twice). I have blown my load just a little too soon and she's gotten mad at me (and it would have been her 3rd or 4th O, not her first).

It's insane. I have no words for this.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

So she's flat out told you that all of her passion was feigned the entire time? And she flat out told you that the reason it was feigned was to hook you?

I'm still having trouble grasping this. You're saying she enjoys the sex when it happens. But she's telling you she does NOT enjoy the sex?

Does she ever make specific requests during sex? positions, acts, devices? or does she make it ALL about you?

Something's just not adding up here.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation, Alex. I could be your wife, actually. For me, I know that few men would even date me long enough to get to know me if I didn't do what your wife did. It is tough on both of you, because she will soon find out that no one will want her since she is pretty much no drive.
> 
> I have come to accept that, following my divorce, I will never date again. I have no drive, never really had one, but had sex so that I could have a special person in my life. The one thing I've learned from TAM is that if the sex isn't there, then it doesn't matter how great any other part of you is. It doesn't matter if I'm mature, responsible, a good mother, fun-loving, kind, giving, strong, etc. None of that matters to a man if it also comes with no drive. So, it's sad for both of you.


SurpriseMyself, I think you are wrong about your outlook on this.

Yes, it may thin out the number of men who would want to be with you, but not as considerably as you'd think. You'd be surprised.

It does not sound like you have a total aversion to sex and sexuality - as in, you are willing and able to be sexual from time to time, if not the way others are.

Because it is not as important to you as it is to the average man does not mean that even an average man will not want to be with you.

I'm telling you, god's honest truth, if my wife had been clear about her attitudes towards sex from the beginning, it would not have been the dealbreaker for me that some may think. If it had been clear from the get-go that sex was primarily for my benefit (though she would enjoy it), I could have accepted that. The fact that she would be willing to participate and that she is capable of enjoying it (ie. orgasms) would likely have been enough for me. Even if it was 2 or 3 times a month.

It would have been a dealbreaker if she told me she doesn't like sex, avoids sex, doesn't ever want to have sex, and won't have sex, etc. That doesn't appear to be the case with you, though. You did have sex (and perhaps you even enjoyed it occasionally?)

In other words, you are clearly capable and perhaps even willing to have sex with somebody for their (and your) benefit. Just because you're not crazy passionate or capable of having sex daily does not mean somebody won't accept that from you.

The problem, as it usually is in marriage, is pretending to be somebody you're not without divulging this information from the start.

I have said as much to my wife. I told her straight up, if you ever find yourself single again (for whatever reason, I die, we divorce, whatever), that you owe it not only to the next guy, but to YOURSELF to not do this **** again. Either keep up the appearance that you started with, or make it a point early on that you are "not that woman". Either or. Lie about it, but keep the lie going the rest of your life, or tell the truth and find out if the dude is okay with it or not.

She understands that. Now. She is not a stupid person in the slightest (quite brilliant, actually) but this was an incredibly dumb thing to do.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> So she's flat out told you that all of her passion was feigned the entire time? And she flat out told you that the reason it was feigned was to hook you?
> 
> I'm still having trouble grasping this. You're saying she enjoys the sex when it happens. But she's telling you she does NOT enjoy the sex?
> 
> ...


No, not like that at all. This is what I am projecting on her. She hasn't admitted to doing that, in so many words, I guess. But yes, this is clearly what has happened. Her response to my suggestion that this was/is the case was one of surprise, as in it's not something she realized happened, I guess. Maybe Im naïve or stupid, but I actually believe that. After all, it's what people do, unfortunately. Almost all of us put on our best faces when a relationship is new, as we don't want the other person to have any negative connotations of us (whether they exist or not).

I honestly believe that this was completely subconscious on her behalf. Doesn't make it any better for me, but at least I'm fairly confident I didn't get purposefully hustled.

Yes, she enjoys sex. Physically. Has no need for it, though. Totally capable of having a good time of herself, and willing to ensure I enjoy myself as well. In other words, it's just not important to her. Orgasms are nice, but so is chocolate cake. Some people won't live without chocolate cake, others will be fine without it, even if they like it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Actions speak louder than words.
If she showed you she liked it, she liked it.

IF she says she doesn't like it, but acts like she likes it, how can you explain this?


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

alexm, it appears that you married a woman with a plan
. Your problem is that the plan never included you other than being the provider to finance it. No children? Get out now, even it you lose half of everything you worked to provide.
If you have children, the same solution should apply.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> No, not like that at all. This is what I am projecting on her. She hasn't admitted to doing that, in so many words, I guess. But yes, this is clearly what has happened. Her response to my suggestion that this was/is the case was one of surprise, as in it's not something she realized happened, I guess. Maybe Im naïve or stupid, but I actually believe that. After all, it's what people do, unfortunately. Almost all of us put on our best faces when a relationship is new, as we don't want the other person to have any negative connotations of us (whether they exist or not).
> 
> I honestly believe that this was completely subconscious on her behalf. Doesn't make it any better for me, but at least I'm fairly confident I didn't get purposefully hustled.
> 
> Yes, she enjoys sex. Physically. Has no need for it, though. Totally capable of having a good time of herself, and willing to ensure I enjoy myself as well. In other words, it's just not important to her. Orgasms are nice, but so is chocolate cake. Some people won't live without chocolate cake, others will be fine without it, even if they like it.


So the biggest issue here is that you're not getting the emotional/ego validation from it that you desire because she just doesn't really have a spontaneous desire for sex. Join the club, my friend. 

Taking stock of your situation, you have a willing wife who does appear to love you and is willing to have sex with you. Even if it's "just for you" she enjoys it while she's having it, which is a whole different animal than someone who has sex that they really don't enjoy. Your wife realizes that sex is important to you, but you need to reinforce that with her. Additionally, she needs to be aware of any ways that you demonstrate your love for her that is more important to her than to you. I'm willing to bet there are things you do for her JUST BECAUSE YOU LOVE HER that you might not necessarily do otherwise. That's ok. Accept the sex as a gift of love from her to you. That DOES show that she loves you.

It's very difficult for some of us spontaneous drive people to accept this situation. We want to be loved in the same way we show love. We want to be desired. I'm in the same boat and it's a daily struggle to not feel discouraged. It helps if you have a spouse that understands that the sex is an emotional connection for you. Stress that with her.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

alexm said:


> That's the problem man. This is how things apparently WERE for a long time. Then she outright tells me she has no interest in sex and that she's essentially doing it for my benefit. Gee, thanks. If things were good, even if it was not entirely true, why come out and ruin it like that?
> 
> Furthermore, she showed such a passion during it (including oral sex on me) that, not only did I not think she didn't like it, but it made me think she REALLY liked it.


Well, you could try withholding the needs she gets fulfilled from you and ask her how she likes it. However what do you think that would achieve? It would only exacerbate the resentment and drive you further apart.

I think Hicks' comment is definitely striking at the core, its not that she was never interested in sex, she probably used to like it, its just that she doesn't now nor remembers that she ever did. It's a bit of a sh1t test, but one that you will solve through actions not words.

Her approach to sex, along with many women, is to react and be pursued. But you've already caught her, and like most animals in captivity they become disinterested and depressed.

I think Athol Kay's MMSL (married man's sex life blog) and MAP (mindful attraction plan) is something that you might find valuable (I will admit it's not something I've personally endeavored on, but then my goals in life are not where yours are at in your marriage at the moment).


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

alexm said:


> SurpriseMyself, I think you are wrong about your outlook on this.
> 
> Yes, it may thin out the number of men who would want to be with you, but not as considerably as you'd think. You'd be surprised.
> 
> ...


It is an incredibly dumb thing to do, and I'm guilty of it as well. As much as I believe in full disclosure and honesty, I just looked at this as something I had to accept. I never meant to be dishonest in any way... I looked at it as something that was expected if I was to be wanted by anyone.

This post is probably the simplest and yet most enlightening thing anyone has ever said to me on TAM. I don't want to lie, nor do I want to deceive. I pride myself on being who I am, take it or leave it.

Funny thing is I've never really even asked myself if I enjoy sex. I've always looked at it as something I had to do or the man would have no interest in me. I've never thought of it as something to enjoy. I have enjoyed moments of it, but it's always been tainted by my inner belief that he doesn't really care for me, he just wants to have sex with me. But I have to grow past that. 

Thanks, Alex. I hope your situation works out for the best. Again, I'm sorry you find yourself here. I hope you and your wife can find happiness, even if that's not with each other.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Fozzy said:


> So the biggest issue here is that you're not getting the emotional/ego validation from it that you desire because she just doesn't really have a spontaneous desire for sex. Join the club, my friend.
> 
> Taking stock of your situation, you have a willing wife who does appear to love you and is willing to have sex with you. Even if it's "just for you" she enjoys it while she's having it, which is a whole different animal than someone who has sex that they really don't enjoy. Your wife realizes that sex is important to you, but you need to reinforce that with her. Additionally, she needs to be aware of any ways that you demonstrate your love for her that is more important to her than to you. I'm willing to bet there are things you do for her JUST BECAUSE YOU LOVE HER that you might not necessarily do otherwise. That's ok. Accept the sex as a gift of love from her to you. That DOES show that she loves you.
> 
> It's very difficult for some of us spontaneous drive people to accept this situation. We want to be loved in the same way we show love. We want to be desired. I'm in the same boat and it's a daily struggle to not feel discouraged. It helps if you have a spouse that understands that the sex is an emotional connection for you. Stress that with her.


Well, that's the issue NOW, yes.

As I said, if I knew this from the beginning, I would have reacted accordingly (and probably not negatively, either). It would, as they say, be a case of "it is what it is".

My issue is that she somehow decided that it would be perfectly okay to take this mask off this far into our relationship. Especially when things were generally good in that regard.

My wife is voluptuous, curvy, hippy, chubby, however you want to define her body type. She is not "plus sized", though. If I, at the beginning of our relationship, not just embraced or accepted her extra weight, even going so far as to appear that I absolutely loved it, or even desired it, not being able to keep my hands off her big round butt, etc etc etc, then she would make the logical assumption that I can't get enough of her and that it's something I absolutely adore about her.

This is how she made me feel. About my body. About my ****. About my sexuality. About my manhood.

If this was not the case at all, and I actually totally preferred slim athletic 100lb women, boy would she be in for a shock if I suddenly decided to tell her this. And what on earth WOULD prompt me to tell her this, even if it's the truth, after all those years of making her feel like SHE is my ideal body type? Familiarity? Comfort? Guilt?

And even then, why would I have pretended for so long, to the point where she thought she was the sexiest thing on two legs that I'd ever seen?

So yes, in a way she is admitting that she did this in order to get me and keep me, and now that that's accomplished, I guess she feels she can come clean.

But seriously, who is stupid enough to say that?? I mean, did I give off the impression that I've given up on life simply because I'm married, and therefore I'll just accept whatever comes my way because I'm just too old for this ****?

FML, FML, FML.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

This is something you need to ask her. She started the ball rolling with the truthfulness, now you both need to see it through. Maybe in a counselor's office would be a good place.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The facts don't fit.
Make the facts fit, then evaluate your life.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Do you think you can have a dispassionate conversation with her about this? If so, you can really dig deeply into her thoughts. You'll have to play Reporter with her, asking question after question, building on previous answers with new directions of questions. But do it without showing any judgment or emotion to any of her answers. 

A reporter would have nothing to gain or lose by any of the answers, and thus she could be totally honest because she won't feel judged. The more people talk about themselves, the further inward they go and the less filtered their responses can be.

You might want to secretly record the conversation for your own later reference, but destroy it once you've gone back over it. Sometimes things go by so fast I miss them completely (or miss the implications), or later I wonder if she really said what I thought she said.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Thor said:


> Do you think you can have a dispassionate conversation with her about this? If so, you can really dig deeply into her thoughts. You'll have to play Reporter with her, asking question after question, building on previous answers with new directions of questions. But do it without showing any judgment or emotion to any of her answers.
> 
> A reporter would have nothing to gain or lose by any of the answers, and thus she could be totally honest because she won't feel judged. The more people talk about themselves, the further inward they go and the less filtered their responses can be.
> 
> You might want to secretly record the conversation for your own later reference, but destroy it once you've gone back over it. Sometimes things go by so fast I miss them completely (or miss the implications), or later I wonder if she really said what I thought she said.


Recorded or not, I agree that it is worth it to have this conversation with her.

I have thought about this somewhat, but never in quite these terms before. For me, I hit puberty very quickly. I went from flat and just there to 36-24-36 (literally!) in about a month. I was 14. No cute teen stage for me; I had a porn star body. And while many would think that's a great thing, it also meant that I got attention from men for the wrong reasons and before I was really ready to understand what to expect and what I should want. I found that I went from no one noticing to the guys were all eyes on me, so I figured I finally had what they were interested in! And no one has ever proven to me otherwise, so why would I question what I thought to be true. Messages in the media don't tell you differently.

All that is to say that she may have something similar in her head. In no way have I ever viewed having sex as "landing a man" only to cut him off. I actually saw sex as something that was required of me, that the man expected, and that I was fulfilling his needs. I never even asked myself what I wanted. If anything like that is going on with her, your marriage might just be saved. Many women may be manipulators, but many are just doing what they think they are supposed to!


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## frustrated wife (Oct 18, 2014)

hi, just wanted to say I totally get where you are coming from and feel for you. Your thread sounds as though I could have written it myself.

I dont think they will ever change, yeah maybe for a few weeks or months at most, but it always goes back to them ignoring us and making us and our needs feel like s**t.

hope you get your happy ending whatever it may be (no pun intended)  x


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I agree with Fozzy--it doesn't seem likely that she was faking it early on. Her enthusiasm--if not her desire--was real. 

Fast forward to now, and it's just easier to tell you that she's never had a drive than to admit that she's lost her enthusiasm for sex with _you_. I've said it before: it is a terrible feeling to not be sexually attracted to your husband. It's not a comfortable thing to explore in oneself, since it often leads to realizations about one self and one's sexuality that are not all that easy to talk about. 

I don't think she lied to you or did a premeditated bait and switch. She probably didn't think about the possibility that one day she'd run out of enthusiasm for sex with you. 

You're putting yourself through a massive headf*ck to dwell on how you've been victimized here. Yeah, it's a raw deal, but you have choices. 

Insist on MC. Tell her you understand that she feels no drive, but that doesn't mean the two of you can't have a fulfilling sex life. Learn to communicate with her about what you need from her, and accept it with grace and gratitude if she is willing, out of love for you, to find a way back to that enthusiasm that you miss from the early years. And if and when it comes back, don't sit around pondering how genuine it is, or if it comes spontaneous sexual desire or from love and a desire to please you. Accept that she wants to make you happy, that she is showing it, and love her back for that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

GettingIt...always with the level head. 

Good post!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening SurpriseMyself
You weren't the original topic of this thread but unless you have discussed elsewhere, I think your feeling on this are very interesting and helpful - not many LD women post in these discussions.

Have you thought about whether you would enjoy sex if you didn't feel it was "required". I can easily see how receiving sexual attention early in life could have soured you on the whole idea. Once you are in that mindset, I can see how it would be very easy to see men who "want sex" as men who "just want sex". 

There are a lot of men for whom sex is an integrated part of love and intimacy. If they don't get it, they find something vital is missing from their lives. Those same men would also find something vital if other parts of love and romance were missing, but sex seems like the most common problem.

Of course if you don't enjoy sex, that is how you are, and is completely fine as long as you are honest with others. You may find men who aren't very interested in sex (some women here have that complaint about their husbands). You might also consider a long term non-sexual friendship with another woman who feels like you do - you would get company, friendship and even a non-sexual form of love.

Or, you might consider an open relationship with a man. So,me men can separate love and sex, and might be able to love you, but have sex with other women.

Maybe you should think about your own ideas of love, romance and sex. Imagine what you would like a relationship to be like. If you have a romantic fantasy does that tend to lead in your mind to sex - or does it stay chaste (or maybe you don't have romantic fantasies).












SurpriseMyself said:


> Recorded or not, I agree that it is worth it to have this conversation with her.
> 
> I have thought about this somewhat, but never in quite these terms before. For me, I hit puberty very quickly. I went from flat and just there to 36-24-36 (literally!) in about a month. I was 14. No cute teen stage for me; I had a porn star body. And while many would think that's a great thing, it also meant that I got attention from men for the wrong reasons and before I was really ready to understand what to expect and what I should want. I found that I went from no one noticing to the guys were all eyes on me, so I figured I finally had what they were interested in! And no one has ever proven to me otherwise, so why would I question what I thought to be true. Messages in the media don't tell you differently.
> 
> All that is to say that she may have something similar in her head. In no way have I ever viewed having sex as "landing a man" only to cut him off. I actually saw sex as something that was required of me, that the man expected, and that I was fulfilling his needs. I never even asked myself what I wanted. If anything like that is going on with her, your marriage might just be saved. Many women may be manipulators, but many are just doing what they think they are supposed to!


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> I've said it before: it is a terrible feeling to not be sexually attracted to your husband.


Finding out the woman you love more than anything has no desire for you and is only going through the motions? Not exactly a picnic either.

GI, I think you have the right basic idea but you are one step ahead of Alex's curve right now. He has to decide something for himself.

Alex, before any advice means anything, think about this: assuming nothing ever changes, can you live and be happy with your W knowing what you now know? Forget whether she was genuinely interested or wasn't - decide that if her desire never comes back, will you want to stay with her? It's not an easy question but I think it is the root issue.

The crux of the problem comes down to this:



alexm said:


> I don't know what to do. I feel as though I have lost my sexuality, my sexual identity. I now know that if I spend the rest of my life with her, I will never feel desired or wanted. And worse, I will never know what she is thinking when we do have sex. I will never be able to enjoy oral sex again (if it even happens). I will never know that if something I do to her, she has no interest in.


It's rough. I would feel the same way. But this is the demon you really have to slay. I'm not telling you to make a snap decision; MC, His Needs, Her Needs, 5LL, etc. .... All those may help, but at the end of the day, it's fish or cut bait.

I'll say it again: if nothing changes, will you be better off still with her or without her? If the former, then advice given is probably on the money. If the latter ... well, it is what it is. Make that call and all else flows.

Good luck, brother.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Is it unconscious - the LD partner wanting sex but never being quite in the mood? Is it intentional and calculating - the LD partner thinking they can ween the HD partner away from sex?



Depending on what her state of mind really is, maybe.

They all want sex. At some point. But not on the frequency that the rest of the planet considers normal.

The eventual goal could be to "wean" the other spouse... Not a surprise there.

Mood is debatable also. If you don't want sex you don't want sex period. There's no magic unicorn that will alter the mood. Not repeatably so. It may work once or twice but sex is like clockwork if you will.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

GettingIt said:


> I agree with Fozzy--it doesn't seem likely that she was faking it early on. Her enthusiasm--if not her desire--was real.
> 
> Fast forward to now, and it's just easier to tell you that she's never had a drive than to admit that she's lost her enthusiasm for sex with _you_. I've said it before: it is a terrible feeling to not be sexually attracted to your husband. It's not a comfortable thing to explore in oneself, since it often leads to realizations about one self and one's sexuality that are not all that easy to talk about.
> 
> ...


If we're talking about having good sex, no, I don't think she was faking it before. That said, I don't think she's faking it NOW, either.

If we're talking purely desire, then yes, but not in the way we may think. I DO think she had the desire for the first few years to be a good partner, to satisfy my needs, and to try and be sexual.

The desire to do this was/is not the same as desire FOR sex. I believe her when she says she's never felt that desire for sex with me, or anyone else. I truly do. Again, some of you will think I'm naïve, stupid, whatever. I suppose I could be. But my gut - not my heart - tells me she's telling the truth about that.

So I'm left in essentially the same place no matter what. If she did actually ever have sexual desire, then it's gone. If the desire was solely to maintain a happy relationship with me and/or to make ME happy, then that's gone as well.

But for what it's worth, I believe it's the latter, which is not exactly a much better scenario anyway.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

alexm I really feel for you.
You are very introspective and give great advice you wear your heart on your sleeve so to speak.

I only say this as a last ditch effort...
If you were to ask w if you could get your needs met by someone else would that trigger something in her.
No disrespect but you are at that point imo.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Alex,

If you weren’t such a long time poster, I’d think you were a troll.

Incredible that your wife could have misjudged you (and the situation) so badly. This smells of more than a touch of Aspergers. You did say that she was brilliant, and those two traits are often found together.

You make it sound as if this was all divulged over a period of time. But you make it sound as if she quickly realized her mistake. Was it the final admission that she hates oral sex that made her realize she’d gone too far? The “hating oral sex” was the biggest mistake because it’s going to be the hardest admission to ignore.

Fozzy’s got to be right that she’s rewriting history to some degree (and isn’t aware that she’s doing it). I’d be happy with a LD wife that enjoys sex, could live without it, but did it with enthusiasm because she wants to make me happy. In some ways this is almost preferable since she’s doing it as an act of love, not just to get herself off. You thought she was HD and that’s the problem, but isn’t most every woman HD early in a relationship? Every woman I’ve been with was even if it didn’t last. True, two years should have been enough time for her to regress to the mean. You had reason to think that she was the real thing.

I don’t think women consciously “bait and switch”. I believe that most women do not think about sex all that often. Most enjoy it when it occurs but aren’t actively seeking it out. The exception is they want to attract a man (new relationship, affair, keeping a man who she’s afraid she might lose). So, as the relationship becomes more stable, their drive decreases. This drives men crazy, because it seems like they’re being punished for being a good husband. They are. But it’s not because their wives have rationally decided that they can stop putting out, it’s just the way that their desire works. That’s how they “feel” and as popular culture constantly reminds us, a woman’s feeling are paramount.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SurpriseMyself said:


> All that is to say that she may have something similar in her head. In no way have I ever viewed having sex as "landing a man" only to cut him off. I actually saw sex as something that was required of me, that the man expected, and that I was fulfilling his needs. I never even asked myself what I wanted. If anything like that is going on with her, your marriage might just be saved. Many women may be manipulators, but many are just doing what they think they are supposed to!


Yes, this is what she has told me. We have sat down and I have acted as the "reporter" and asked questions without coming down on her. I've listened to what she's said, and this is it in a nutshell. It wasn't to land me, to trick me into marriage. It was because it's what she felt she was supposed to do, was expected of her, etc.

But it really doesn't matter in the end. The fact that she's apparently had enough of living like that is just as damaging to me as if she lost her desire to have sex with me.

She's said we'll still have sex and that she enjoys it, but the damage is done. It's nothing more than duty sex, no matter how many orgasms she has.

I have yet to get through to her what the big deal is. She is listening to me, but her brain doesn't work the way most of ours does (and she knows that, trust me, she knew that before I came along). To her, if the physical act is the same as it always has been, she can't see why I'd enjoy it any less. No matter how many times I tell her it's 99% mental and emotional, she doesn't understand. To her, sex is sex, whether you love the person or not. It's good or it's not good. With us, it's good. No, it's great, apparently. She makes no bones about it, that I've done and do things to her that no man has ever done before.

But I could care less at this point, because her brain and her heart aren't involved, just her clit and her vagina. I could be the world's greatest lover and it's no consolation for the fact that, when it comes to sex, she views me only as a penis and a tongue. For her, there is no emotional aspect to sex, with me or anyone else, and there never has.

The truly crazy thing about this is that when people normally feel like this about someone, it's all they need them for. She loves me, I KNOW that. It's unbelievably apparent. But the love aspect of our relationship is a completely separate part than the sex side.

And yes, I did question her numerous times over the years if she's had relationships that were purely physical and solely for sexual purposes. Her answer was yes, but not for HER purposes. In the few cases where this happened, it was on the guy's side, and she promptly dumped them. She's never had a purely sexual relationship, ie. a friends with benefits kind of thing. She gets emotionally involved.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Surprise,
Have you ever been with a man who really understood you, loved you completely inside and out? 

Or were these situations where you loved the man, felt sex was expected/required but didn't feel that they really loved you? 





SurpriseMyself said:


> Recorded or not, I agree that it is worth it to have this conversation with her.
> 
> I have thought about this somewhat, but never in quite these terms before. For me, I hit puberty very quickly. I went from flat and just there to 36-24-36 (literally!) in about a month. I was 14. No cute teen stage for me; I had a porn star body. And while many would think that's a great thing, it also meant that I got attention from men for the wrong reasons and before I was really ready to understand what to expect and what I should want. I found that I went from no one noticing to the guys were all eyes on me, so I figured I finally had what they were interested in! And no one has ever proven to me otherwise, so why would I question what I thought to be true. Messages in the media don't tell you differently.
> 
> All that is to say that she may have something similar in her head. In no way have I ever viewed having sex as "landing a man" only to cut him off. I actually saw sex as something that was required of me, that the man expected, and that I was fulfilling his needs. I never even asked myself what I wanted. If anything like that is going on with her, your marriage might just be saved. Many women may be manipulators, but many are just doing what they think they are supposed to!


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Could this be a "Love Languages" issue? Yours is physical touch, hers is something else like "acts of service." 

Just because you have different "love languages" doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Could you see it as an act of love even if "sex" isn't particularly her favorite thing?

Seems like you have a good level of communications to work with. That's a start. 

It's all a matter of what you can live with. If she makes an effort to please you, is that enough? Or do you need her love language to match yours? Can you accept what she can offer at this point? If not, it may be time to cut your losses on the relationship. For your benefit - and hers.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

This is also what I believe to be true. The stuff Alex describes from the early phases of their relationship is what I call the: above and beyond pattern

When a woman is consistently going above and beyond in bed for an extended timeframe, two things are typically true:
- They actually like sex with their partner
- They want to build/maintain an intense emotional bond with their partner

Right around year 10 with M2, maybe 2-3 years after we had our third and final child, she started this routine of 2/days with me. It was totally unprompted by me. We were in a 5-6/week or so mode and had been so for a decade. A routine I was very happy with. But suddenly she added mornings to our routine almost every day. Did that for about a year. 

Honestly it didn't change anything else in our marriage. Everything outside the bedroom was good, and stayed good. But that was something she just did. 

Alex's wife wasn't trying to find the minimum routine he would tolerate in the beginning. She was good, giving and game.

I've warned him for quote some time about being overly warm emotionally with her. Told him she might see that as clingy. 

Clingy will create a sexual aversion faster and deeper than any other flaw.....

And clingy - for some reason - is something that wives have a hard time addressing with their men. 





GettingIt said:


> I agree with Fozzy--it doesn't seem likely that she was faking it early on. Her enthusiasm--if not her desire--was real.
> 
> Fast forward to now, and it's just easier to tell you that she's never had a drive than to admit that she's lost her enthusiasm for sex with _you_. I've said it before: it is a terrible feeling to not be sexually attracted to your husband. It's not a comfortable thing to explore in oneself, since it often leads to realizations about one self and one's sexuality that are not all that easy to talk about.
> 
> ...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Alex, women are not men.
There are some women who post on this board that are "naturally sexually driven", and don't need a certain man, certain set of circumstances and don't have hang ups. But the majority of women and most importantly your wife in particular are not.

My wife likes sex. But she absolutely needs to act like she doesn't care about it too much. She needs to tell herself she doing it for me. She needs me to be the one who wants it and she needs to be "giving in". Maybe this is because girls are taught that sex is wrong. I really don't know why. But I do know that is who she is. And to be married to a woman is to accept her for who she is.

And yes, in a way this changed as sex was plentiful in the beginning. But really it hasn't changed. What has changed was where I STOOD in her heirarchy. I was A#1 when we were dating and newly married. I went down after kids due to a combination of having the kids and how I myself acted in a more needy and unattractive fashion. I've climbed back up by changing my behavior. Kids are still there.

You are buying into her words at complete face value, without trying to understand what makes her who she is. She is a woman who will be sexually engaged if the man earns the place in her heirarchy. Therefore that's what you have to do. And what she told you was her throwing down the challenge to you.... She wants you to earn your place back. Your reaction to her challenge is a completely counterproductive fail.

IF you want a woman who is just purely sexually engaged under all conditions, the percentage of available women who fit this is much smaller. And, there is a downside to that because you will then have a woman who is having sex with you not because she loves you but because she loves sex. And that's not really a safe place to put yourself into either.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MarriedTex said:


> Could this be a "Love Languages" issue? Yours is physical touch, hers is something else like "acts of service."
> 
> Just because you have different "love languages" doesn't mean you have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Could you see it as an act of love even if "sex" isn't particularly her favorite thing?
> 
> ...


Oh yes, it most definitely is, no doubt about it. And in theory, I have no problem with the fact that we speak different languages.

The issue, again, is that I feel I was led to believe that we spoke the same language.

Normally this is true for the first ~6 months or so of a relationship, then things settle down and each person gets back to "normal", so to speak. With us, it was 3-4 years of this so-called honeymoon period, at least as far as sex was concerned. That's all well and good, but when it's being faked, that's not-so-good.

After that long, it's not difficult to believe that that's the way things are. I fully expected, early on, this honeymoon period would end after a few months, so I was prepared for the inevitable changes. When they didn't happen, I thought "great! we're actually on the same page here!"

My issue is not about us having our differences when it comes to this - as that is so very common, and (with much help from TAM) is relatively easy to work around. Compromises and such. Extra effort from both of us. I have no doubt that we'll work that part of the problem out.

I just have to get my mind wrapped around the fact that I was essentially lied to for several years, and led to believe that this was about us, not something she was apparently doing for me and me only. It's been a karate chop to my man-feelings. In other words, she's essentially said (without actually saying it) that she doesn't need me, or any other man, in this regard. Again, if she was upfront about her general lack of sexual desire from the beginning, then my male ego would have adapted. I AM good in bed (for her). That would have been enough, had I had a heads up. But I've been taken down a notch, as I was under the impression that, not only was I good in bed, but that she wanted me that way, thought about me that way, desired me that way.

In any case, we'll get through this. I just have to get out of the being angry for lying to me stage, first.

The moral of the story is, ladies AND men: don't pretend to be something you're not. Be yourself, right from the start. Let the other person fall in love with the real you.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

alexm said:


> The moral of the story is, ladies AND men: don't pretend to be something you're not. Be yourself, right from the start. Let the other person fall in love with the real you.


I don't think anybody does it on purpose... or only a very few...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> GettingIt,
> 
> This is also what I believe to be true. The stuff Alex describes from the early phases of their relationship is what I call the: above and beyond pattern
> 
> ...


*I can't disagree with this. In my defense, I am not really that clingy, honestly. BUT, she is the opposite of clingy, so even the slightest hint of it to her is negative. She's not a cold person by any stretch, but she's extremely independent. I'm not clingy by the very definition of it, but in her world, I probably am. She grew up in a broken home, where her mother was often working and left her and her 2 brothers alone a lot of the time. She was a single mother by her early 20's and fended for herself (and quite well). She's only ever really known independence. To have somebody around almost constantly was an adjustment to her, for sure, but I learned when to steer clear and when not to invite myself along for things, etc. I know better.

I think I appear clingy on here, because TAM is my outlet and this is where I feel I can speak my mind unfiltered. The way I talk to my wife is much different.*


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I think IRL there number of women out there who are similar to your wife is pretty high. No idea if it's the majority of women out there or not, but would not be surprised if the number is 20 - 30%. As MEM pointed out, he thought it was one of 2 things when she elected to proactively engage in hot and heavy sex with you. Technically, for everyone it's 3 possibilities on why they engage in regular sex with a partner: 1) Enjoys sex, 2) Does it for the emotional closeness only and 3) Enjoys sex AND loves the emotional closeness. I think the highest percentage of people are described by case 3, but I also think there are large minorities of people out there with case 1 or 2. 

What you described is most likely that your wife felt that emotional closeness with you and wanted to provide a great sex life in order to maintain the emotional bonds with you. The real key here then, IMHO, is what changed EMOTIONALLY on her end that caused her to feel less of an emotional connection to you. I think that is the real key here. You're caught up with her having to want you in order for you to enjoy the sex. But if she has the intense desire to fulfill your needs in order to deepen the emotional bonds with you, and in so doing she gets into the act after you start, I think you still have a great situation. 

What I find concerning is why would she elect to tell you this at all, and on top of that tell you that from here on out any sex you have with her is purely out of duty - no matter how good it may be? I can only conclude one of 2 things: 1) Your wife does not feel the same emotional connection to you that she used to feel or 2) Your wife has Aspergers and will never, ever fully grasp sexual desire or possibly even deep emotional attachment.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: FML*



Hicks said:


> Alex, women are not men.
> There are some women who post on this board that are "naturally sexually driven", and don't need a certain man, certain set of circumstances and don't have hang ups. But the majority of women and most importantly your wife in particular are not.
> 
> My wife likes sex. But she absolutely needs to act like she doesn't care about it too much. She needs to tell herself she doing it for me. She needs me to be the one who wants it and she needs to be "giving in". Maybe this is because girls are taught that sex is wrong. I really don't know why. But I do know that is who she is. And to be married to a woman is to accept her for who she is.
> ...


This is a really insightful post. 

Alex, has your wife not said other things that had a completely different meaning?

This is a rather large sh!t test. Pass it.

ETA: Go read Neuklas thread. I think it would do you some good to not orient your overall world around your wife.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Clingy will create a sexual aversion faster and deeper than any other flaw.....
> 
> And clingy - for some reason - is something that wives have a hard time addressing with their men.


This is what every man MUST know.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Alex, some excellent posts here with eye opening insight. Just wanted to recap...

While you are probably right about letting it all out here at TAM, thus appearing more needy than you do IRL, I think it might be wise for you to find ways to appear IRL as the independent man she was first attracted to. She clearly respects independence and is turned off heavily by neediness. Therefor up your independence.

I've written to you before about my BFF's husband and how she is totally turned off by his clingy neediness. I like the guy a lot but he really really does sabotage himself by refusing to look in the mirror.

He makes these stupid comments that just grind under her skin. She and I will be talking about the old days and he'll say something about other men paying attention to her in a sarcastic way, as if the attention she still gets from men is a direct insult to him, as if he is subtly promoting her to pat his head and reassure him that she loves him and only him. 

Her husband will also make comments about her apparel because she looks "too good" and men will notice. It's a complement when you say, "you look hot I'm going to have to be your body guard tonight." But it's not a complement when you say, "why do you have to look so hot? You know the other men are going to notice!"

When we have our twice yearly girls weekend, her husband will call ALL THE DAMN TIME! Did you arrive safely? Where are you going tonight? Next day: What time did you get home last night? What are you doing today? Repeat for the next day and the next. I sometimes suggest she simply NOT answer his call. But she says that would make him even more clingy. The more she indicates she wants space (because he is so clingy and needy) the more he latches on to her.

During one weekend away I suggested SHE call him to report in, this would give him the reassurance he needed and help him become less clingy. She looked at me aghast! "No way! I've been dealing with this for 20 years, there is no amount of reassurance for him!"

You had a thread a while ago about talking to your wife when she was away on a girls weekend. She, essentially, blew off all your attempts to communicate with her during that weekend. The thread was split, half suggested you respect her desire for NO Contact outside of an emergency, the other half felt she was wrong to want not contact.

This, to me, suggests GettingIt's post was spot on. You are coming off too needy TO HER, even if you aren't for other women. This has caused her to no longer feel a sexual attraction toward you. My BFF is not sexually attracted to her H even though he is a good looking man with a decent body who dresses well and is a funny guy because he is too needy for HER tastes.

MEM has a "thermostat" thread here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

It is solid gold and you should study it. I think GettingIt was absolutely right. Your wife has lost all sexual attraction to you and that feels like a horrible betrayal to admit that to your spouse. It is safer and easier to say she doesn't have any sexual inclination rather than to admit she does like and want sex, just not with you.

Your marriage can be saved and you can inspire sexual attraction in your wife again. Read and study MEM's thread and look in the mirror to find ways to become less needy *in HER eyes* not in yours or ours.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Technically, for everyone it's 3 possibilities on why they engage in regular sex with a partner: 1) Enjoys sex, 2) Does it for the emotional closeness only and 3) Enjoys sex AND loves the emotional closeness. I think the highest percentage of people are described by case 3, but I also think there are large minorities of people out there with case 1 or 2.


4) Husband management. She does it in order to get some results she wants. Sometimes called duty sex.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thor said:


> 4) Husband management. She does it in order to get some results she wants. Sometimes called duty sex.


My BFF I mentioned above has sex with her husband just to shut him up. She says she rarely orgasms with him because she just can't get into it even though he does everything she needs to warm her up.

It's sad really.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> My BFF I mentioned above has sex with her husband just to shut him up. She says she rarely orgasms with him because she just can't get into it even though he does everything she needs to warm her up.
> 
> 
> 
> It's sad really.



It's common sense. 

If she gets into it and enjoys herself in her mind she loses the bargaining chip of sex for XXXX or YYYY and so on. 

Reducing the frequency some, increase the quality some, and you got the best management tool since Microsoft Project...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> It's common sense.
> 
> If she gets into it and enjoys herself in her mind *she loses the bargaining chip of sex for XXXX or YYYY and so on. *
> 
> Reducing the frequency some, increase the quality some, and you got the best management tool since Microsoft Project...


Can't agree on the bolded part. She is having sex with a man she is NOT attracted to. No amount of foreplay will take her dislike of him into arousal.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Can you fix this? No idea. I’ve tried for decades now. Basically, my wife is like Surprise in that she has sex to ‘catch a man’ just knowing it’s an important thing to most men and would be dumped otherwise. It also then becomes something of value she offers. And the flip-side; Mine loathes that it has any value and wants to be wanted for something besides sex. It’s a guaranteed loser plan when they pull sex off the table.

The only ‘fix’ I’ve noted is to make sure I’m someone she has to catch versus someone caught (and it is a horrible dynamic which insures the relationship will break eventually). That means adding insecurity into the future of whether or not I’ll stick around; Secured relationship means they no longer have to try. So you must create a strong boundary: That means distancing enough that you can leave to enforce that boundary and trigger her ‘getting dumped again’ feeling. You will not be in this kind of relationship with someone who makes you feel unwanted and undesired. She will become sexually inclined IF she truly wants you and knows you are no longer hers. That’s simply how she works and ‘the rules’ in her head if she’s unwilling to really address this issue in her.

Essentially, ‘her life rulebook’ is going to screw up every single relationship she will ever have until she finds someone LD. And the stupid part; I bet she does have a libido. So of coarse she’s going to adopt a ‘never liked sex’ mentality to justify her thoughts about herself and her self-value. Funny she ignores the actual facts: She appears to like sex while having it. It’s only when she thinks about it that she makes her thoughts bad. She could fix this in herself since it is most likely some insecurity she has about herself and the value of what she offers (seeing sex as something she doesn’t want to be valued and fighting it)…. But why should she work on herself? She caught you and you are tolerating it ok. F’n magic rings and using your own feelings toward her as the real excuse. 

Just repeat the mantra; “She knows a boyfriend would dump her over this. Am I worth more than a boyfriend?” Then start proving it or do what I did; Revert the relationship to that of a complex boyfriend/girlfriend and stop thinking about it like a ‘real marriage’.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> Can't agree on the bolded part. She is having sex with a man she is NOT attracted to. No amount of foreplay will take her dislike of him into arousal.


I think what john means is that even if she could be attracted to him it would be a loss for her to allow herself to be, since by not being attracted to him she has power over him.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> I think what john means is that even if she could be attracted to him it would be a loss for her to allow herself to be, since by not being attracted to him she has power over him.


If that makes you feel better to ascribe some nefarious motivation than have at it. It doesn't diminish the bottom line truth. A woman, and probably most men, can't be aroused by someone they dislike.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> If that makes you feel better to ascribe some nefarious motivation than have at it. It doesn't diminish the bottom line truth. A woman, and probably most men, can't be aroused by someone they dislike.


But they were attracted by that very same person at some point in time.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It is sounding more and more like aspberger's to me.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Alex, you really are getting some great advice on this thread.

There are a few things that stand out to me.

1. I know you say that you seem more clingy here than IRL, but I'd bet the farm that you are too clingy for your wife. What she thinks and what her motivations are and how she regards sex with you matters too much to you. You're a ruminator, and husbands who ruminate are poor matches for emotionally independent women. Women like your wife don't want to have to matter so much to their men. It puts them in the position of being "stronger" than their mate, and that (whether they realize it or not) is a huge sexual turn off. She might love and respect you as a breadwinner, a friend, a good man, a father, etc. . . . . but not as a worthy sexual partner. 

Take it from an independent woman who is married to a ruminator. 

2. Racer mentions boundaries, and boundaries are very important in a dynamic like yours. I don't think you have to constantly make her feel insecure about your intentions to stick around, but examine yourself for "Nice Guy" tendencies (you might have already done this--sorry if I missed it.) If you temper your behavior to avoid conflict with her based on your fear of her sexual "gatekeeping," it will only exacerbate her lack of attraction to you in the long run. 

3. Stop dwelling on the notion that you were "misled." She didn't mislead you: people change, circumstances change. If you stay married long enough, YOU will change in a way that she will need to deal with. Marriages are organic, living things. This is "season" in your marriage, not some sort of "sentence". How you react to this "season" is very important. Don't turn it into a "sentence" or a self-fulfilling prophesy by panicking and painting yourself the victim. 

4. Your wife's sex drive will never be like yours. Her desire for you will never be like your desire for her. Give up on wishing for that sort of "sameness." I see so much that is positive in your situation: for one, she has tried to talk to you about this honestly. Accept her honesty, don't punish her for it, because she will learn that emotional honesty isn't worth the price. Another positive: she has a libido, she enjoys sex. The decline in frequency is alarming to you, but be aware that it can get worse. Her attraction to you is hanging in the balance. TALK to her about this in a non-blaming way. What trips the sort of desire you want from her is not under her control. If you want it, you are going to have to work for it. Fair? Maybe not. But how bad do you want it?

5. In addition to reading neuklas' thread, I recommend wannabe' s thread "Initiating the Talk" and farside junkie's thread "Sh*t Test?" in Considering Divorce.

I agree with the posters who observed that your marriage dynamic is not that unusual--it's been seen on TAM with regularity. There are some here who have taken the advice here and turned their marriages around -- both by learning to hold their partners accountable AND by coming to understand that their wife's sexual desire is mutable and very much dependent on things that even she doesn't recognize. You have plenty of options here. Continue to stay open to learning about female desire, continue to communicate with your wife, continue to do all you can to keep resentment from taking hold. Don't give up on your marriage.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> But she got so comfortable with me, with our relationship, that she felt she was able to tell me how she really feels, and that I wouldn't react as badly as I have. Stupid on her part, and she knows this now.


BTW Alex, this comfort she felt was called "trust."

Was. 

You have to ask yourself what you want out of this marriage with your wife. An illusion that your wife builds for you because she has learned you can't handle the truth, and you can't handle uncertainty? Or the real deal, even if it means having to fight for it, to work for it, to sometimes hurt because of it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is very good.

1. I absolutely believe that ALL discussion of her drive, desire, etc. must immediately cease. 
2. Alex needs to make a short list of situations where he may be coming across as needy. And then stop doing that. 
3. And he needs to create more space between them. Not angry space. This is space focused on developing skills and friendships that are good for him. 

-----------
I read a book recently. In the book was a quote reminded me very much of Alex. 

*Most conscious thought is simply an attempt to claim ‘authorship’ for a choice that has already been made. Our thoughts are just an ongoing attempt to explain what we’ve already decided.*







GettingIt said:


> Alex, you really are getting some great advice on this thread.
> 
> There are a few things that stand out to me.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yet if she liked sex that much with someone else she would be looking elsewhere, assuming OP does not look like or behave like an ogre.

The theory of "I like sex just not with my husband/wife" goes out the window if we look at sex as a physical need. I hate root beer yet if I'm dead thirsty after a long bike ride and the vending machine is out of my favorite, what am I going to do, ride back thirsty?

Under the same logic, why is it that MOST men may accept "changing standards" of attraction as they get older etc but SOME women come up with impossibly high standards?

If sex is not a priority it's not a priority regardless if it's with Harrison Ford or Dr. John... In some cases where there is some sexuality left I agree but much of the LD's we see here - men or women - are not LD for their partner but in general.

The sexual - therapy - self help industrial complex wants us to be convinced it's our fault - but if that was the case and we are not attractive any more then why are they not cheating?

My wife's work team includes several Bollywood actor looking guys that are single and available. If she wanted sex but not with me she could have any of those - including the guy who chatted her up on company IM  but it's not happening. If she wanted a wealthy executive type all my neighbors are like that. 

Does it make us feel better to believe that our partner has some magic match out there waiting to be discovered and enjoyed rather than someone who would rather watch QVC than have sex?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
I truly believe that you don't fall into the 'very clingy' bucket. 

AND 
It is painfully obvious your Wife has an intense allergy to clinginess. Even a little clinginess with her, causes a LOT of broken glass. 

AND
She finds independence appealing 

---------




[/B]


alexm said:


> *I can't disagree with this. In my defense, I am not really that clingy, honestly. BUT, she is the opposite of clingy, so even the slightest hint of it to her is negative. She's not a cold person by any stretch, but she's extremely independent. I'm not clingy by the very definition of it, but in her world, I probably am. She grew up in a broken home, where her mother was often working and left her and her 2 brothers alone a lot of the time. She was a single mother by her early 20's and fended for herself (and quite well). She's only ever really known independence. To have somebody around almost constantly was an adjustment to her, for sure, but I learned when to steer clear and when not to invite myself along for things, etc. I know better.
> 
> I think I appear clingy on here, because TAM is my outlet and this is where I feel I can speak my mind unfiltered. The way I talk to my wife is much different.*


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> The sexual - therapy - self help industrial complex wants us to be convinced it's our fault - but if that was the case and we are not attractive any more then why are they not cheating?


Well, I can't speak for every woman who lost attraction for her spouse, but I didn't cheat despite having a drive because: 

1. I think it's wrong 

and 

Um . . . . . yeah, that about sums it up!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Yet if she liked sex that much with someone else she would be looking elsewhere, assuming OP does not look like or behave like an ogre.
> 
> The theory of "I like sex just not with my husband/wife" goes out the window if we look at sex as a physical need. I hate root beer yet if I'm dead thirsty after a long bike ride and the vending machine is out of my favorite, what am I going to do, ride back thirsty?
> 
> ...


John, you can't equate the lovely Dr. Mrs BPD/LD's behavior with most other LD wives.

Secondly, if a LD woman does enjoy sex when she has it but doesn't seek sex, it means she has "responsive" desire. She responds to the erotic her mate brings to the table. If he doesn't bring the desire she doesn't have have the desire. If he is actively turning her off by not showing the level of independence she finds sexy, her responsive desire is not automatically going to seek out other avenues to meet a need that isn't being awakened.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Lon said:


> But they were attracted by that very same person at some point in time.



Yes they WERE...

See GettingIt's post #65.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> John, you can't equate the lovely Dr. Mrs BPD/LD's behavior with most other LD wives.
> 
> .



I don't. The good Dr. Is so off the charts it's not even close. But pathology aside I have seen way too many cases of the sex of the month club to make me believe that there are fundamental and common reasons for lack of sexual interest to set in past a certain age.

Are Viagra divorces for real? If so, what does that tell us?

Responsive desire is good but if there's no interest in sex to begin with there's no response. Period. Even getting to the point where response is feasible is unlikely.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: FML*



Anon Pink said:


> Yes they WERE...
> 
> See GettingIt's post #65.


The problem is though, that it's these unattracted women who were the ones to change, and whose responsive desire has led to an LD state while their H's level has remained much more constant. And so if the only way to get that attraction back is for the H to have to be the one to do something differently, to have to "respond" to the changed state of his W, it's doomed. If the unfulfilled man has to be the one to respond to her and stop being "needy" then ultimately his trying to not be needy is actually very beta since it show that 1. He is willing to forfeit his needs 2. Is in fact a passive way to actually get his needs met.

A wife that loses attraction for her H is the ultimate sh1t test for him, and is a losing situation no matter which approach he takes. The ONLY way for him to actually get his needs met is by taking back his power and not putting up with her BS. The only way the relationship can be saved is for HER to change in a way that restores attraction. Yes he can make it easier by BEING more attractive, and by using tactics that lead to favorable responses by her, but ultimately it's her mindset at the root of the problem.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: FML*



Lon said:


> The problem is though, that it's these unattracted women who were the ones to change, and whose responsive desire has led to an LD state while their H's level has remained much more constant. And so if the only way to get that attraction back is for the H to have to be the one to do something differently, to have to "respond" to the changed state of his W, it's doomed. If the unfulfilled man has to be the one to respond to her and stop being "needy" then ultimately his trying to not be needy is actually very beta since it show that 1. He is willing to forfeit his needs 2. Is in fact a passive way to actually get his needs met.
> 
> A wife that loses attraction for her H is the ultimate sh1t test for him, and is a losing situation no matter which approach he takes. The ONLY way for him to actually get his needs met is by taking back his power and not putting up with her BS. The only way the relationship can be saved is for HER to change in a way that restores attraction. Yes he can make it easier by BEING more attractive, and by using tactics that lead to favorable responses by her, but ultimately it's her mindset at the root of the problem.


Lon:

I disagree on forfeiture of needs. If you drop the thermostat while improving yourself, you are demonstrating through action that it is NOT okay for your needs to be ignored. Just the opposite in fact..

You are right that she must change. Pushing someone to change? Won't happen. But remembering who he was when she fell for him, becoming that guy again, inspires her to change. I am far from the most alpha dude around and I managed to do just that.

That is the only feasible choice, and it is not a losing proposition. Because, no matter what happens, he will be better for it.

"No matter what happens I will be okay."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is 100% different than my experience. 

A man absolutely can create attraction. 

I do agree that if the Marriage isn't that important to the W, than it's possible that nothing may change. 

But - if you have let things reach the point your wife doesn't really care whether you stay married, you have a bigger problem than just sex. 






Lon said:


> The problem is though, that it's these unattracted women who were the ones to change, and whose responsive desire has led to an LD state while their H's level has remained much more constant. And so if the only way to get that attraction back is for the H to have to be the one to do something differently, to have to "respond" to the changed state of his W, it's doomed. If the unfulfilled man has to be the one to respond to her and stop being "needy" then ultimately his trying to not be needy is actually very beta since it show that 1. He is willing to forfeit his needs 2. Is in fact a passive way to actually get his needs met.
> 
> A wife that loses attraction for her H is the ultimate sh1t test for him, and is a losing situation no matter which approach he takes. The ONLY way for him to actually get his needs met is by taking back his power and not putting up with her BS. The only way the relationship can be saved is for HER to change in a way that restores attraction. Yes he can make it easier by BEING more attractive, and by using tactics that lead to favorable responses by her, but ultimately it's her mindset at the root of the problem.


----------



## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Lon said:


> The problem is though, that it's these unattracted women who were the ones to change, and whose responsive desire has led to an LD state while their H's level has remained much more constant. And so if the only way to get that attraction back is for the H to have to be the one to do something differently, to have to "respond" to the changed state of his W, it's doomed. If the unfulfilled man has to be the one to respond to her and stop being "needy" then ultimately his trying to not be needy is actually very beta since it show that 1. He is willing to forfeit his needs 2. Is in fact a passive way to actually get his needs met.
> 
> A wife that loses attraction for her H is the ultimate sh1t test for him, and is a losing situation no matter which approach he takes. The ONLY way for him to actually get his needs met is by taking back his power and not putting up with her BS. The only way the relationship can be saved is for HER to change in a way that restores attraction. Yes he can make it easier by BEING more attractive, and by using tactics that lead to favorable responses by her, but ultimately it's her mindset at the root of the problem.


Best case scenario is that a husband and wife can communicate about how her desire works, and how that can be approached in a way that meets the needs of BOTH spouses. 

I think its rare for a woman who has lost sexual attraction for her husband to initiate the sort of change and the sort of communication that is needed. It happened in my marriage because I happened to stumble on TAM and have it laid out for me pretty starkly what was going on in my marriage and how to "fix" it from my end. I think if my husband had been the one to find TAM or MMSL first, he could have started the process from his end. 

The fact of the matter is, we can only help the posters who are here by telling them how to alter their own behaviors and perceptions. If Alex's wife was here, I'd have an earful to give to her, too. 

You can choose to see working to understand how your wife's desire works as beta or weak. Or you can choose to see it as educating yourself so you can be a better sexual partner. Or you can choose to see it as "gaming" your wife. Or you can choose to see it as being the best husband you can be.

When I figured out what it was that my husband needed from me, I jumped right on it. It was like a huge missing piece of the puzzle of my marriage had fallen into place. In return, my husband started on his own journey to learn about what his part had been in the loss of our sexual intimacy. 

I have handed out my share of sh!t test in our marriage. I assure you that my lost desire for my husband was not one of them. 

I do agree with you that for the marriage to survive and for it to be mutually fulfilling, both partners have to eventually arrive at a place where they want to understand their partners needs and work to meet them willingly. It's highly unlikely (nigh impossible?) for this to happen spontaneously and simultaneously. Somebody has to make the first move, take the risk, and then have a plan and patience.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Lon:
> 
> I disagree on forfeiture of needs. If you drop the thermostat while improving yourself, you are demonstrating through action that it is NOT okay for your needs to be ignored. Just the opposite in fact..
> 
> ...


But what I am saying, is that its more likely he is exactly the same person he was when she fell for him, than it is that he is different. The only thing that has changed is HER perception of him. For him to "become" himself again is a little ridiculous, but its more a matter of him have to DO things that he did when he originally wooed her, and being mindful to keep doing those things - the tricky part is for him to not be doing it for her, but for himself.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This is 100% different than my experience.
> 
> *A man absolutely can create attraction*.
> 
> ...


Oh I do believe this is true forsure, I originally was responding to the idea that if he's not attractive then he just isn't and that can't be changed. So I'm in agreement, but my argument is that if he's just trying to create attraction in order to get more sex, he's going about it backwards and women are repulsed by the smell of that kind of desperation. If he is actually successful at doing things in his own life, the attraction is a byproduct.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> *Best case scenario is that a husband and wife can communicate about how her desire works*, and how that can be approached in a way that meets the needs of BOTH spouses.
> 
> *I think its rare for a woman who has lost sexual attraction for her husband to initiate the sort of change and the sort of communication that is needed*. It happened in my marriage because I happened to stumble on TAM and have it laid out for me pretty starkly what was going on in my marriage and how to "fix" it from my end. I think if my husband had been the one to find TAM or MMSL first, he could have started the process from his end.
> 
> ...


Your first paragraph seems contradictory to everything else you have said, especially if the man is a ruminator.

when it comes to lost attraction, verbal communication is pretty much impotent. Yes it is still important to communicate, but it is not the tool that needs to be used to fix things, it is simply used for progress reports (and only indirectly).


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Lon said:


> Your first paragraph seems contradictory to everything else you have said, especially if the man is a ruminator.
> 
> when it comes to lost attraction, verbal communication is pretty much impotent. Yes it is still important to communicate, but it is not the tool that needs to be used to fix things, it is simply used for progress reports (and only indirectly).


Hmm, I don't see what you mean by contradictory. One person gets the ball rolling by making changes in themselves that they think will better meet the needs of their spouse. They can choose to talk about this with their spouse or not, but the goal is to get to a place where they can work on the marriage together. 

My husband and I talked (verbal communication) ad nauseam about my lost attraction, why it was lost, and what we could do to keep it from waning ever again. I mean, we sat up entire nights talking about it. 

We still do. We will always have to work on this because I guarantee you my attraction is a moving target.


----------



## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I haven't read all of the posts, so please just ignore me if I'm way off base.

But honestly, it doesn't sound to me like she has changed much, or that she has lost attraction. It sounds like this is how she has always felt, and slowly became comfortable enough to tell him, and to be her real self.

And if that's true, the whole build attraction, eliminate clinginess is a bit of a red herring isn't it?

It also sounds like he hasn't changed much either, but just had his assumptions of what he's been doing all these years shattered.

Trust me, I know how absolutely devastating this is, as that is in many ways my story too.

But maybe all that really needs to happen is that he needs to correct his assumptions and then decide whether he still truly wants his wife now that he can see *her*, and not just his idealized image of her.


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## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> We will always have to work on this because I guarantee you my attraction is a moving target.



Can you explain this a bit, please? Why is your attraction a "moving target?"


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

GettingIt, well maybe I'm just arguing semantics, I basically agree with what you wrote about building attraction, the action part not the words part.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

I'm going to try to restate this.

First of all, ruminators have to be very self aware when it comes to verbalizing what is in their heads. They tend towards:
- Way, way too many words
- A visibly anxious affect 
- A much greater focus on being understood than on understanding 

And worst of all, this terrible habit of claiming that it's 'all about you', when it's really 'all about them'. 

Here's an example of that last bit.
- Ruminator is trying to soothe their own anxiety
- But claims they are just trying to be protective / do something nice for their partner

The result of all this is exhausting for the ruminators partner. 

So - this bit about communication only seems contradictory. In fact, it isn't. 

The Ruminator needs to manage the directionality of the communication by:
- Getting out of their anxiety locked head
- Reading body language and tone of their spouse
- Asking questions, listening and accepting that their partner sees some things differently

For example:
Wife: I need one full weekend a year with my married girl friends, shopping. I don't want to check in, I don't want to be pinned down on my arrival time Sunday night. 
Husband: But I want to know that (1) you arrived safely and (2) when you are leaving the destination to begin your journey home.

Husbands Subtext: I cannot manage my anxieties for one weekend a year to let you have some space. Followed by a near endless list of reasons, rationalizations, excuses, props, ALL focused on getting his need met, so he doesn't feel anxious. 






GettingIt said:


> Hmm, I don't see what you mean by contradictory. One person gets the ball rolling by making changes in themselves that they think will better meet the needs of their spouse. They can choose to talk about this with their spouse or not, but the goal is to get to a place where they can work on the marriage together.
> 
> My husband and I talked (verbal communication) ad nauseam about my lost attraction, why it was lost, and what we could do to keep it from waning ever again. I mean, we sat up entire nights talking about it.
> 
> We still do. We will always have to work on this because I guarantee you my attraction is a moving target.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Lon said:


> GettingIt, well maybe I'm just arguing semantics, I basically agree with what you wrote about building attraction, the action part not the words part.


Well, it also occurred to me to restate that I'm focusing on the case where attraction did exist in the first place and then diminished or was lost due to pretty typical life circumstances. 

It's the dynamic that husbands typically describe as "bait and switch" in which sex is great for a few years, then declines, triggering changes in the husband's behavior that might further exacerbate the dip in attraction. 

I think women's drives wax and wane a lot more than men's do. It's when the men panic and start to become "clingy" or "pissy" or [insert unattractive behavior here] in an effort to figure out how to get the sex train back on track that things can start to spiral down a very complex drain that is so, so hard to find a way out of.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Well, it also occurred to me to restate that I'm focusing on the case where attraction did exist in the first place and then diminished or was lost due to pretty typical life circumstances.
> 
> It's the dynamic that husbands typically describe as "bait and switch" in which sex is great for a few years, then declines, triggering changes in the husband's behavior that might further exacerbate the dip in attraction.
> 
> I think women's drives wax and wane a lot more than men's do. It's when the men panic and start to become "clingy" or "pissy" or [insert unattractive behavior here] in an effort to figure out how to get the sex train back on track that things can start to spiral down a very complex drain that is so, so hard to find a way out of.


Communicate your feelings, unless those feelings show weakness. Be dominant without being an A-hole. Be prepared to accept the sexless seasons of your life, but also be prepared to switch it back on at a moment's notice.

Simple.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I haven't read all of the posts, so please just ignore me if I'm way off base.
> 
> But honestly, it doesn't sound to me like she has changed much, or that she has lost attraction. It sounds like this is how she has always felt, and slowly became comfortable enough to tell him, and to be her real self.
> 
> ...


Somebody mark the calendar! I agree 100%. :iagree:

She's finally shown you who she is. Now, is it a deal breaker or not?


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## MisterG (Jan 24, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Communicate your feelings, unless those feelings show weakness. Be dominant without being an A-hole. Be prepared to accept the sexless seasons of your life, but also be prepared to switch it back on at a moment's notice.
> 
> Simple.


That's a fair summary.

When you date someone, you work hard to make them (and keep them) interested in you. Getting married doesn't mean you get to stop. 

Men don't want their wives to stop exercising and get fat after they get married. Similarly, women don't want their husbands to stop courting them. Marriage isn't a finish line.

Both parties need to continue to work at it, and it's often a moving target to keep your spouse interested because of jobs and kids and aging parents and whatever else comes along.

Yeah, it's like walking a tightrope (with someone throwing things at you).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

I’m going to come off as a lot more hostile towards women than I really am, but this topic just pisses me off so much that I’ve got to let it out.

Here’s how rational actors would handle a situation; one’s partner has certain needs that need to be fulfilled in order for them to be happy. A rational actor, loving and caring about their partner’s happiness, would do all that they could to fulfill those needs. On their own. Because it’s the right thing to do.

If a wife has needs, whether they are helping with the housework, emotional support, kindness, romance, whatever, the husband is expected to do his utmost to fulfill them. Without question. Ask Oprah, ask any mainstream thought leader. Of course not all husbands do this, but a rational actor who loves his wife is expected to. Nobody questions this. Nobody says that it is the wife’s responsibility to behave in such a way as to get her husband to enjoy doing these things on his own. No one says “if you want him to help with the housework, dress sexier”.

And yet, when a wife doesn’t feel like meeting her husband’s need for sex and intimacy, the wife apparently has no responsibility at all to fulfill them. It’s the husband’s job to treat her like a rat in a Skinner box and figure out what buttons to press to make her desire him. It’s not her responsibility to care for his needs. Why? Because sex is different? Because women don’t have the capability to be rational actors? Do you really want to say that? 

So good husbands, denied the same consideration that they would give their wives, are perplexed. “She must not love me if she doesn’t care about my happiness”. And we’re told “If you want your wife to have sex with you (which we would might have occurred to her on her own) you have to play the game. Do something you’d rather not have to have to do. Be someone you’d rather not be in order to get her attention”. Sure, this probably works a lot of the time. But what does it say about the wives? That they aren’t our rational equals? That they have to be treated like lab rats in order to love us? And if they do love us, is that love freely given? Or is it just a conditioned response?

I don’t know how much popular culture is to blame. But when Excedrin commercials show a couple in bed; the woman discovers that she doesn’t have a headache; the husband turns off the lights in the expectation of finally getting lucky and the woman flips the lights back on and says “not happening”, that doesn’t help. When women’s needs are placed foremost and guy’s are laughed off, that doesn’t help. When everyone in encouraged to never compromise and just hold out for the perfect spouse, job or situation to fall into their laps, that doesn’t help.

Playing games with my wife to get what I freely give her doesn’t interest me in the least. I don’t need an orgasm THAT bad. People wonder why young men aren’t willing to commit, don’t seem as driven as they used to be and spend all their time in front of a video game. Well, that just might be their mostly likely route to happiness.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

But I actually believe that if you drill down what you will find at the base of many of these situations is unmanaged anxiety. 

And that drives a vast and varied mass of dysfunction. 

Observe the opposite of anxiety.

DD24 does something that causes M2 to be intensely angry. Dad is unprepared for this disclosure (due to a lack of planning on his part) and does not inject the right tone into his conversation with M2. M2 explodes. The next day M2 asks me which of us is going to move out of the house. 

I saw that coming a mile a way. 

That night she sleeps upstairs. And the next. 

So - in my lemonade factory I have found a beachfront studio. It's about 8 hours drive, $1,000 a month for a 3 month lease. 

So I say: I'll move out. 

Saturday she asks 'where we stand'. I tell her I've found an apartment and will be moving on Monday. (All super low affect. There is no 'fvck you' tone, there is no sadness, no anger. There is no tone at all).

Sunday morning M2 climbs into bed hysterically crying. I rub her back and get her to talk. She profusely apologizes over and over. She begs me not to leave. 

Finally she catches her breath. 

I ask her: do you think I want to leave you
M2: no
MEM: what do you think would have happened if you said nothing today
M2: I know you. You would have left tomorrow.
MEM: yes - because you asked me to
M2: Crying again - I know you will meet someone and then....
MEM: Babe, I love the beach, never lived at the beach. My plan was to get back in killer physical condition and write. I wasn't going to take this (point to ring) off. Wasn't going to sleep with anyone else - it was a 3 month lease. That said, once I signed the lease I would have stayed the full 3 months. 
M2: I know, I am such an idiot. 
MEM: No. You were just angry at DD24. And taking it out on me. That's not ok. 
M2: I know. 

Later that day...
M2: I can't wait til DD18 goes to work so I can tear your clothes off
MEM: ditto
Ah - hysterical bonding sex - nothing like it. 

So what really happened there?
M2 wanted to make me responsible for her feelings. Never going to happen. When I refused, she threatened me. 

How did that feel? Not good. That said, I know I'm going to be fine no matter what M2 does. And SHE knows that. But M2 has zero confidence that SHE will be ok if I leave. 








GettingIt said:


> Well, it also occurred to me to restate that I'm focusing on the case where attraction did exist in the first place and then diminished or was lost due to pretty typical life circumstances.
> 
> It's the dynamic that husbands typically describe as "bait and switch" in which sex is great for a few years, then declines, triggering changes in the husband's behavior that might further exacerbate the dip in attraction.
> 
> I think women's drives wax and wane a lot more than men's do. It's when the men panic and start to become "clingy" or "pissy" or [insert unattractive behavior here] in an effort to figure out how to get the sex train back on track that things can start to spiral down a very complex drain that is so, so hard to find a way out of.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MisterG said:


> That's a fair summary.
> 
> When you date someone, you work hard to make them (and keep them) interested in you. *Getting married doesn't mean you get to stop. *
> 
> ...


Actually, for the LD spouse (notice I don't say "wife"), it DOES mean you get to stop.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> GettingIt,
> 
> But I actually believe that if you drill down what you will find at the base of many of these situations is unmanaged anxiety.
> 
> ...


When I grow up, I want to be MEM


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

That is very, very kind.

If true, than marry someone brings out the very best in you, someone like M2. 




Buddy400 said:


> When I grow up, I want to be MEM


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> GettingIt,
> 
> But I actually believe that if you drill down what you will find at the base of many of these situations is unmanaged anxiety.
> 
> ...


Awwww! See, this makes my heart beat faster. I love it when my husband does this for me. Why? Because through his security in himself, he shows me security for us. He's not going to let us fail, not going to let us go back to where we were. No matter what I do, he's going to take care of us by taking care of himself. 

A man who will set boundaries _and then not blink_ is irresistible.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Buddy you don't come off as hostile but assuming people are rational actors always makes me smile.

Women are not irrational but just like men respond to all the various social, biological and cultural pressures that are on us. 

Two conflicting ones:

*You are only as worthwhile as you are sexually pleasing

*If you are sexually available, you are not worthwhile.

So, LD women get #1 reinforced through their formative years. Like all people, they want their emotional needs met and are willing to put up a facade for awhile to get their needs met.

The facade eventually crumbles and their partners are left scratching their heads. The game playing only works because manipulation has a nasty habit of working really well.

This isn't irrational, it's rational. If there was a way to tell women that it's okay not to conceal their sexuality (HD or LD) there would be a lot less of what looks like deception.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Actually, for the LD spouse (notice I don't say "wife"), it DOES mean you get to stop.


Fozzy, I think it only means the LD partner has made a move, and now it's the HD partner's turn. It's up to him (or her) to either sit and count their money and rifle through their properties or to roll the dice and make a move of their own. 

The game isn't over unless the HD partner forfeits.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The beachfront story is heartwarming but in reality few people are as emotionally fragile as that... Those I know at least. 

A couple times when I had to deal with this I simply sat down and stared the good Dr. into submission. No tears, no apologies. A few minutes of intensive staring (that's inactive listening ) and she realized that Drama Hour is on BBC and not in Paducah...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Elk87 said:


> Can you explain this a bit, please? Why is your attraction a "moving target?"


Because it's not solely the product of a hormone that courses reliably through my veins. 

I only get that sort of hormonally-driven sex drive a few days each month during ovulation. It's during those few days that I will literally lose my mind if my husband doesn't have sex with me. (And it's during those few days that I sit in awe and wonder that men can get ANYTHING done but pursue sex if they are half as distracted as I am by my drive.) During those few days I'd screw my husband no matter how unattractive his behavior, how long it's been since he's showered, or how many muddy footprints he's left across the carpet. 

The rest of the month, my attraction is based on how he handles himself in situations that are not to his liking, how he handles crappy behavior from me, how he handles the kids, and, oh, the phase of the moon. 

I have to say, it's pretty much a tightrope, just like Fozzy's picture. I'm not saying all this to be glib. None of this has been easy to admit to my husband, let alone ask him to respond to. Luckily, he's been a real partner in helping me analyze my how my desire changes. He's taken that information and learned to work with my desire cues in order to keep me HD even beyond his needs.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> assuming people are rational actors always makes me smile.


It's the hopeless economist in me.


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## MisterG (Jan 24, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Actually, for the LD spouse (notice I don't say "wife"), it DOES mean you get to stop.


You're right. I should have said you shouldn't stop, or you don't get to stop if you want it to work.

But yes, the LD spouse does get to stop. And the HD spouse is stuck trying to turn things around or considering leaving.


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## MisterG (Jan 24, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> Fozzy, I think it only means the LD partner has made a move, and now it's the HD partner's turn. It's up to him (or her) to either sit and count their money and rifle through their properties or to roll the dice and make a move of their own.
> 
> The game isn't over unless the HD partner *forfeits*.


That seems a little harsh on the HD spouse. Maybe the game isn't over until someone (LD or HD partner) decides their partner is more trouble than they're worth.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

MisterG said:


> That seems a little harsh on the HD spouse. Maybe the game isn't over until someone (LD or HD partner) decides their partner is more trouble than they're worth.


What I meant was that a partner who is unhappy in their marriage always has choices. Refusing to stand up for yourself or set boundaries or put the marriage on the line is tantamount to not taking your turn and just sitting there fiddling with your . . .uh, play money . . . while your partner waits on your move. What is an LD's incentive to make another move until you counter their first move with a move of your own? They aren't in any discomfort. They got you right where they want you. 

Play the game, damnit.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Fozzy, I think it only means the LD partner has made a move, and now it's the HD partner's turn. It's up to him (or her) to either sit and count their money and rifle through their properties or to roll the dice and make a move of their own.
> 
> The game isn't over unless the HD partner forfeits.


I'm not sure I see where you're going with the Monopoly analogy. This makes it seem like being LD is a deliberate move on one party's side. I don't see it being the case in a majority of situations (certainly some though).

Another reason I don't like this analogy is that in Monopoly, players take turns making moves and are held to the rules of the game. In life, the HD is usually obligated to roll endlessly hoping to get out of jail, and the rules of the game constantly change without being declared.


I think it's more like Who's Line Is It Anyway---the game where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> I'm not sure I see where you're going with the Monopoly analogy. This makes it seem like being LD is a deliberate move on one party's side. I don't see it being the case in a majority of situations (certainly some though).
> 
> Another reason I don't like this analogy is that in Monopoly, players take turns making moves and are held to the rules of the game. In life, the HD is usually obligated to roll endlessly hoping to get out of jail, and the rules of the game constantly change without being declared.
> 
> ...


Well, it wasn't a particularly well-thought analogy on my part, I will admit that.  I guess what I was trying to get at was that the LD partner doesn't have to have the final say when they stop meeting the needs of their HD spouse. The HD partner can choose to accept this "move," or (s)he can make a counter of his/her own. 

I prefer to liken marriage to a dance more than to a game, anyway. Foxtrot, anyone?


----------



## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> It was hugely stupid of her to expect that you'd be okay with a wife who had no interest in sex, no passion for your c0ck and an aversion to oral sex. What the hell is wrong with her that she expected you to be okay with this? She was right to tell you, she was wrong to expect you to be okay with it!
> 
> Alex, this is clear bait and switch.


I think you are confusing two VERY different types of women.

The first is an LD...they do not think of sex, they have no sexual fantasies, they never initiate, never get horny, never just stop during the day and say "gawd, i need to get laid as soon as i get home", never sext you a message. It just never enters their mind. THese types can be convinced to (or maybe the better term is "shamed into") giving you sex, they can try (especially if you initiate), and at least put up with trying to satisfy you. Although the minute the sex is over, its back to the home and garden channel

The 2nd type is a diabolical evil byatch. She deliberately makes you believe she is a sexual dynamo, and the minute she knows for sure she is pregnant, the sex just stops, like the circuit is dead, the fuse was blown and the "sex" machine does not run anymore. You can really tell this type, when the sex mysteriously turns on big time when SHE decides she wants a 2nd child. 

There should be prison time for the 2nd type of woman. The first, it really is not their fault, its the way their brain is wired.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

You are clearly way more efficient than I. There is however a small matter of effectiveness. 

So ummm - did your stare down result in hysterical bonding sex?

Because IMO there is a big difference between a cessation of hostilities (armistice) as we had with North Korea 60+ years ago, and a true peace. 

The former does not result in hysterical bonding sex. The latter does......

The difference between M2 and J2 is this. M2 knows she would be miserable in a post MEM world. J2 pretends she will be ok in a post John world even though she likely won't......




john117 said:


> The beachfront story is heartwarming but in reality few people are as emotionally fragile as that... Those I know at least.
> 
> A couple times when I had to deal with this I simply sat down and stared the good Dr. into submission. No tears, no apologies. A few minutes of intensive staring (that's inactive listening ) and she realized that Drama Hour is on BBC and not in Paducah...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

M2 has the exact same reaction....    






GettingIt said:


> Awwww! See, this makes my heart beat faster. I love it when my husband does this for me. Why? Because through his security in himself, he shows me security for us. He's not going to let us fail, not going to let us go back to where we were. No matter what I do, he's going to take care of us by taking care of himself.
> 
> A man who will set boundaries _and then not blink_ is irresistible.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would rather skip the hysterical bonding sex altogether if the path to it was strewn with emotional wreckage.

I'm not a very emotional person and J2 has nothing to do with it. My father was not very emotional and lived to be 85. Very deliberate, planning, calculating military officer and later high ranked political apparatchik. 

Mom was a firecracker that could teach our spouses a thing or two about emotional instability . Despite having a stunning sense of humor my mom always went from 0 to 60 in 3 seconds flat. She never argued with my father but always was stressed about family relatives bunnies puppies... You get the drift. She had serious stress related medical issues (heart disease and HBP) and passed on at 65.

You (royal) don't think about emotional stress very much - even if you maintain your composure and deal with an emotionally roller coasting spouse it impacts you (royal) at the end. 

True peace usually means to not have the fireworks happen again - if it happens on a regular basis for different but related reasons have you (royal) addressed root causes?

The way you defuse such emotionally unstable people is to not play along - simply act you age and hold them to the same standard.

Back when I thought my marriage was worth saving I tried to reason, play along, and even use various psych tools like CBT to "help out". Surprise, they don't work past a certain point. Some people live for drama. I don't. 

Drama is nice if it's an Italian movie, sex or no sex.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> I would rather skip the hysterical bonding sex altogether if the path to it was strewn with emotional wreckage.
> 
> I'm not a very emotional person and J2 has nothing to do with it. My father was not very emotional and lived to be 85. Very deliberate, planning, calculating military officer and later high ranked political apparatchik.
> 
> ...


That's not peace. That's a standoff. 

Come on john, get in there and roll around in the mud. You might get some satisfaction out of your marriage before you bow out. 

Speaking of fun, how's the biking going? Anymore joint ventures with you and the lovely Mrs?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

M2's mom died of a heart attack at 65. She was a Croatian fire cracker. Fun, but volatile. 

M2 had her first heart attack at 50, despite being fit and physiologically healthy.....






john117 said:


> I would rather skip the hysterical bonding sex altogether if the path to it was strewn with emotional wreckage.
> 
> I'm not a very emotional person and J2 has nothing to do with it. My father was not very emotional and lived to be 85. Very deliberate, planning, calculating military officer and later high ranked political apparatchik.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Physiologically fit. Emotionally???

That's the whole point. Why emulate your firecracker Mom instead of regulating your emotions a bit better?


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Buddy you don't come off as hostile but assuming people are rational actors always makes me smile.
> 
> Women are not irrational but just like men respond to all the various social, biological and cultural pressures that are on us.
> 
> ...


Quoted for truth...

:allhail:


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> That's not peace. That's a standoff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You'll never have peace in a situation like this. I'm a realist. 

There's no point arguing with someone who has such low emotional processing abilities. It's like someone arguing math with me. Hopeless 

Biking is going well. We are still biking near daily, busy with home projects, etc etc. Intimacy marginally better than before but not a game changer if there ever was one. That's the Too Little, Too Late phase of the relationship I suppose..


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

God some of these high maintenance women sure do require a lot of active management. That just sounds like a nightmare way to live to me. The type of bull **** mem and getting it describe would totally push me into my own world. If those are the hoops I have to jump through for hysterical bonding I'll just take my chances on the open market.


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## livnlearn (Mar 5, 2012)

If I just had sex very recently, as in less then 24 hours ago, I tend to want to do it again. After that, life creeps in and I rarely give it a thought. The "more you have it, the more you want it" thing. The more time goes by without any sexual activity, if asked I would definitely be able to say that I feel like I could live without ever doing it again. However, like your wife..when we get around to having sex, after some warming up..some days more then others...I totally get into it. Same goes for the oral sex your wife says she doesn't like giving. In the heat of the moment, I really really like and WANT to do it. However, the thought of it..like now, when I'm not aroused..well it does nothing for me and the thought of it seems like a bit of a chore actually and if asked I would likely answer that I don't like giving oral sex. Again...in the heat of the moment I LOVE to do it and sometimes am so into it that I have a hard time stopping if my husband wants to slow things down. In the heat of the moment, I totally LOVE all that is involved with having sex..and still, two days later I can feel like I'd be okay to never do it again.
People's level of desire can't always just be put into a simple category of low or high. I think the fact that you have a wife who has sex with you (even if it starts out that you are the only one wanting it)..and enthusiastically shows that she is enjoying it and enjoying being with you, puts you far ahead of many others here. I think it sucks that she told you and made you question yourself and your relationship. If I were to guess, I'd say it is just easier to say that stuff..shi*ty as it was..then to keep trying to come up with reasons as to why she doesn't feel in the mood that often. 
I think you can rest assured that your wife loves you AND totally enjoys being with you sexually.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

livnlearn said:


> I think you can rest assured that your wife loves you AND totally enjoys being with you sexually.



Really? What do you base that on? Reading his posts I get the impression she doesn't love him at all. She hates being with him sexually and has even admitted it. I suspect she's with him more out of convenience.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

You knew this before marriage.......we see these blazing red flags and ignore them.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Richie, I think the whole point of this thread is that he DIDN'T know it before marriage. She was extremely sexually charged (or at least appeared to be) for several years into the marriage before lowering the boom on him that she thinks she's actually asexual. If what she says is accurate (and only she knows for sure) then she was deceptive.


----------



## Angelou (Oct 21, 2014)

Something must have turned her off. Less romance? Change in weight? Self esteem? Stress? Because how can she go from what you described her to now. Good actress? How long have you two been married? There's got to be a different approach to this..


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Angelou said:


> Something must have turned her off. Less romance? Change in weight? Self esteem? Stress? Because how can she go from what you described her to now. Good actress? How long have you two been married? There's got to be a different approach to this..



Of coarse! Because it just must be his fault somehow. He must have turned her off. It can't be that she bait and switched him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Deep sigh. 

M2's mom died because she worried herself into an early grave. 

M2 is following in her footsteps. 

I have done what I can to teach M2 better coping skills. But her wiring runs deep. 

Just so there is no doubt at all on this point: I like calm. I like emotionally stable. 

That said, 95% of the time M2 is fun and playful and happy. I deal with the remaining five percent because I love the 95%. 





john117 said:


> Physiologically fit. Emotionally???
> 
> That's the whole point. Why emulate your firecracker Mom instead of regulating your emotions a bit better?


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Richie, I think the whole point of this thread is that he DIDN'T know it before marriage. She was extremely sexually charged (or at least appeared to be) for several years into the marriage before lowering the boom on him that she thinks she's actually asexual. If what she says is accurate (and only she knows for sure) then she was deceptive.


You are correct. Read it wrong.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Of coarse! Because it just must be his fault somehow. He must have turned her off. It can't be that she bait and switched him.


When it's a man who turns down the wife for sex he must be either a porn addict, cheater or gay. When a woman turns down a husband he must have stopped the romance....you read this by certain posters all the time.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Most of the time - isn't high maintenance. 

The sex part is good. But that's not really the primary glue. The thing I couldn't really leave behind is the telepathy. 

Never had that with anyone before. Kind of amazing to be so deep in someone else's head. 

But yeah - when M2's middle of a melt down, it takes some doing to stabilize the situation. This type marriage isn't for everyone, I agree with that.....




WorkingOnMe said:


> God some of these high maintenance women sure do require a lot of active management. That just sounds like a nightmare way to live to me. The type of bull **** mem and getting it describe would totally push me into my own world. If those are the hoops I have to jump through for hysterical bonding I'll just take my chances on the open market.


----------



## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I think it's more like Who's Line Is It Anyway---the game where the rules are made up and the points don't matter.



This made me laugh...and then cry a little because of its truth. Good one!


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

This is pure gold, as well as Mem and Anon's posts from the same page and a few others. Fantastic stuff, thank you!



GettingIt said:


> Alex, you really are getting some great advice on this thread.
> 
> There are a few things that stand out to me.
> 
> ...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

alexm said:


> This is pure gold, as well as Mem and Anon's posts from the same page and a few others. Fantastic stuff, thank you!



what about _your_ desire and what _you_ want from the relationship? You didn't change... she did. It was fine before and now it's not good enough. So now _you_ have to do all the work... seems fair to me, or not...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> This is 100% different than my experience.
> 
> A man absolutely can create attraction.
> 
> ...


I am lucky in this regard - it IS important to her. I know this through her words, as well as her actions. She loves me, and doesn't want to lose me, I know that.

Now it's getting it through to her that a big part of this revolves around, well, sex. As she separates love and sex, and always has, it's been a challenge for her to see things the way I (and 99% of the world) see it. I'm not naïve, she'll never SEE it the same way I do, but she has to have the empathy to understand that's how it needs to be, with me or anyone else.

Giving her real world examples has allowed her to start understanding. She is not into romance, per se, but she does require (as most people do) a certain level of attention, whether it be from hugs and kisses, to compliments, to flowers and gifts, to being thoughtful. She knows full well that if I essentially just lived here and helped pay the bills, she wouldn't be happy.

In other words, if *I* ignored her basic needs, she'd have an issue with that. Furthermore, to make this example more pertinent to how she views things, I suggested that what if *I* had zero desire to do anything like that for her? Would she understand and still love me? Yes, she probably would, but how long would/could she live like that? What if I did all these things for her, but only when *she* brought it up? "You know, you haven't bought me flowers in a month..." then I rush out and buy her flowers. She's still getting what she wants, but the whole nature of the gesture is empty. Then if she points out her frustration at having to tell me to do things like that for her, my response is "Well that's who I am, and you have to remind me to do them. At least I'm doing those things!"

So she IS starting to understand that SHE has to make an effort on her own. Until fairly recently, her idea of effort in that regard was simply the fact that she was doing it, and to her, that was enough.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lon said:


> But what I am saying, is that its more likely he is exactly the same person he was when she fell for him, than it is that he is different. The only thing that has changed is HER perception of him. For him to "become" himself again is a little ridiculous, but its more a matter of him have to DO things that he did when he originally wooed her, and being mindful to keep doing those things - the tricky part is for him to not be doing it for her, but for himself.


That's right. I honestly don't think I've changed all that much over this relatively short period of time (~6 years).

What HAS changed are the circumstances. When we started dating, I was living on my own in a fairly large house. My business was also doing well at that time.

Fast forward a few years, and we're living together (as well as my two step-sons), and my business is not as successful as it once was (but still going strong).

So I am the same person, in reality, but the perception now is that I am not as independent as I was back then.

6 years ago, I was solely responsible for running my own household, paying my own bills, doing my own grocery shopping, etc.

Now, everything is shared. In fact, I don't even do grocery shopping anymore, she likes to do it herself. We have a shared bank account. We are equally responsible for bills etc.

So the perception is that I am no longer as independent as I once was, but there's also really no way to change that.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lon said:


> Your first paragraph seems contradictory to everything else you have said, especially if the man is a ruminator.
> 
> when it comes to lost attraction, verbal communication is pretty much impotent. Yes it is still important to communicate, but it is not the tool that needs to be used to fix things, it is simply used for progress reports (and only indirectly).


This is actually very interesting as far as our relationship goes.

I am a communicator, and she is not. Just as she is (hopefully) learning things, so am I.

I think for me to get through to her, I need to stop talking to her about it, and just DO. She is all about action, not words, even if those words turn into action.

I do recognize that the talking aspect is likely turning her off, even if I take direct action as a result. I think I need to cut out the communication and rely solely on my actions from here on out.

This may sound like bad advice for the majority of people, but I have learned that a very few people just don't react to talking, my wife among them.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: FML*



alexm said:


> This is actually very interesting as far as our relationship goes.
> 
> I am a communicator, and she is not. Just as she is (hopefully) learning things, so am I.
> 
> ...


This is exactly right. No amount of words will wake her up or get her to empathize with the situation more than she is now. 

Show her.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> God some of these high maintenance women sure do require a lot of active management. That just sounds like a nightmare way to live to me. The type of bull **** mem and getting it describe would totally push me into my own world. If those are the hoops I have to jump through for hysterical bonding I'll just take my chances on the open market.


WOM, trust me when I say that I don't take what my husband does for me for granted in any way. One of the reasons I stick around TAM is because it reminds me how damn lucky I am, and how unusual our success is. 

And it's not the hysterical bonding he does it for, he does it for the intimacy, the happiness, the and satisfaction of his HD needs that cannot be met by (even lovingly given) duty sex. He does it because this is the sort of marriage he wants, and this is the sort of sex life he wants.

And its not that he has to jump through hoops all the time; it's more like he had his own "getting it" moment and now has the key to gauging and understanding how my sexual desire works. Yes, it requires that he pay attention and work at it, _but that is how marriages stay healthy over time. _ 

I tell him often how much I appreciate how he works to understand me and meet my needs. I know he is enjoying having his needs met, too. It's not a one-way street, WOM. 

You know, it occurred to me that I could take your quote above, change a few words, and find something very similar on forums dominated by women complaining about their marriages:

"God some of these high maintenance men sure do require a lot of sex on their own terms. That just sounds like a nightmare way to live to me. The type of bull **** described by women who satisfy their men sexually would totally push me into my own world. If those are the hoops I have to jump through to get my husband to listen to and consider my feelings, I'll just take my chances on the open market."


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: FML*



alexm said:


> That's right. I honestly don't think I've changed all that much over this relatively short period of time (~6 years).
> 
> What HAS changed are the circumstances. When we started dating, I was living on my own in a fairly large house. My business was also doing well at that time.
> 
> ...


So you've clearly indicated some of the things you did then that wooed her, so why can't you be more independent again? Do your own grocery shopping, spend your own money. There is no reason you can't be inclusive of her while also being much more independent.

Yes the reason couples split the tasks is for synergy, but it sounds like deep down that arrangement doesn't light her fire. Start living life for yourself more, instead of feeling like her caretaker.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> You'll never have peace in a situation like this. I'm a realist.
> 
> There's no point arguing with someone who has such low emotional processing abilities. It's like someone arguing math with me. Hopeless
> 
> Biking is going well. We are still biking near daily, busy with home projects, etc etc. Intimacy marginally better than before but not a game changer if there ever was one. That's the Too Little, Too Late phase of the relationship I suppose..


Well, fwiw, for some reason I haven't given up on your marriage, even if you have. If it could pick one TAM story to get an update on in 10 or 15 years, it would be yours.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Well, fwiw, for some reason I haven't given up on your marriage, even if you have. If it could pick one TAM story to get an update on in 10 or 15 years, it would be yours.


you are not his wife...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> you are not his wife...


I know, but I just get this feeling about it. Not saying I'm right.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In 15 years you'll only get an update from my high definition tombstone LCD... (granite is so Game of Thrones)....

For the next couple - probably more - years I will be collaborating with the "Person Most Likely to Hook Up With" in a project unrelated to work... So who knows... 

Joking aside there are times that morbid curiosity keeps me married. As I told my girls it's almost like having prime seats to watch a train wreck. Inside the train of course... But as my younger girl comes closer to graduating then the ticking clock becomes a lot louder.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
When you have the conversation with J2 where you tell her it's over, you're going to discover that she is far more fragile than it might seem. 

And that is going to feel really really bad. 





john117 said:


> In 15 years you'll only get an update from my high definition tombstone LCD... (granite is so Game of Thrones)....
> 
> For the next couple - probably more - years I will be collaborating with the "Person Most Likely to Hook Up With" in a project unrelated to work... So who knows...
> 
> Joking aside there are times that morbid curiosity keeps me married. As I told my girls it's almost like having prime seats to watch a train wreck. Inside the train of course... But as my younger girl comes closer to graduating then the ticking clock becomes a lot louder.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

This is your best post to date. 




alexm said:


> I am lucky in this regard - it IS important to her. I know this through her words, as well as her actions. She loves me, and doesn't want to lose me, I know that.
> 
> Now it's getting it through to her that a big part of this revolves around, well, sex. As she separates love and sex, and always has, it's been a challenge for her to see things the way I (and 99% of the world) see it. I'm not naïve, she'll never SEE it the same way I do, but she has to have the empathy to understand that's how it needs to be, with me or anyone else.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> When you have the conversation with J2 where you tell her it's over, you're going to discover that she is far more fragile than it might seem.
> 
> ...



Not to me. And not to her, initially. 

The majority of the hit will come - as expected - after she returns to her birth country for good and has to deal not with me but with scheming siblings, relatives, and a culture as alien to her as it gets. She won't stay here - no friends and no particular preference to stay here - our kids will be overseas most likely, I have plenty of options here or in Europe... 

I know she's fragile. I have tried to help with what little behavioral psych I remember from my undergrad days , I suggested IC, FC, or MC, all to no avail.

The bard said it best: "not my circus, not my monkeys"...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> 
> This is your best post to date.


I know, and I'm a dumb *** because this exact advice has been the cornerstone of so many posts here. I just never thought it applied to me, I guess.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

alexm said:


> I am lucky in this regard - it IS important to her. I know this through her words, as well as her actions. She loves me, and doesn't want to lose me, I know that.
> 
> Now it's getting it through to her that a big part of this revolves around, well, sex. As she separates love and sex, and always has, it's been a challenge for her to see things the way I (and 99% of the world) see it. I'm not naïve, she'll never SEE it the same way I do, but she has to have the empathy to understand that's how it needs to be, with me or anyone else.
> 
> ...


You want the "real thing" Alex--some men can't abide anything else but to have their desire for sex and intimacy matched by that of their wife. It's not an unreasonable wish, but one that you cannot simply ask for and get. 

She does have to come to understand what sex means to you. This was part of the big hang up for me, but once I understood that my husband's need for an enthusiastic partner went well beyond his physical need, things really fell into place for me. 

I was able to direct my sex drive in a way that allowed it to be far more of an emotional expression for me that it had been in the past. Much of the freedom to do that came from understanding that sex was highly emotional for my husband, too--and affected his ability to function in and enjoy so many areas of life not directly tied to our relationship. I suddenly understood what a responsibility I had towards him--and it no longer felt like a burden. Instead, it made me feel quite powerful. It no longer felt like it was something I was doing because he was whining about it--I was doing it for me as much as for him. 

At first I did a lot of work in order to feel as sexual as possible as much as possible. But as time passed and our relationship and intimacy improved, I was able to be more honest with him about how my desire worked, and since he was willing to explore that, the time I had to devote to consciously focusing on it myself has decreased. We are in a pretty good groove now with being able to communicate about this without spiraling into hurt feelings--and that includes him doing work on himself and his tendency to ruminate or "over think" things. 

I think you are on the right track. As I said, your dynamic has been seen here before, and a couple of folks have had success with improving things pretty dramatically through a combination of coming to understand how their spouse ticks a little bit better, being willing to set and enforce boundaries that might seem uncomfortable to them at first, and learning to how to be less dependent on their spouse for validation of their feelings and views.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

You have done everything you possibly can. I know that. You know that. 

The thing is, it takes a certain type guy to put his daughters welfare first, and go head to head against a raging wife who (with the best intentions) is trying to force that child down the wrong path. 

There's no on/off switch for loyalty, commitment and selflessness. 

Your plan is totally justified. I'm merely of the opinion that it is going to feel a LOT worse than you expect. 





john117 said:


> Not to me. And not to her, initially.
> 
> The majority of the hit will come - as expected - after she returns to her birth country for good and has to deal not with me but with scheming siblings, relatives, and a culture as alien to her as it gets. She won't stay here - no friends and no particular preference to stay here - our kids will be overseas most likely, I have plenty of options here or in Europe...
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm a realist - I have yet to find things that hurt more than I thought they would and that includes parent loss, sibling loss, health issues, etcetera..

There are some benefits to not being very emotional. That does not mean I'm not loving etc but at some point you gotta call it a day.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Of all the folks on TAM, I identify with you the most. So let's hope that I am wrong about this. You don't deserve to feel bad about dissolving your marriage. I simply believe that you will. 

That protector circuitry is incredibly powerful. 

As the guy who reminds me most of myself, you are the last person here that I wish ill. Quite the opposite is true. 

I only say this because I believe it to be true. 





john117 said:


> I'm a realist - I have yet to find things that hurt more than I thought they would and that includes parent loss, sibling loss, health issues, etcetera..
> 
> There are some benefits to not being very emotional. That does not mean I'm not loving etc but at some point you gotta call it a day.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well thank you! Part of the benefit of spending a decade studying the human mind is that if you're honest with yourself, and a critical thinker, you can really figure yourself out pretty well and prepare for your own reactions when bad things happen.

I use the Halo video game analogy often. Know what your character, weaponry, and so on can do. Don't think you can go after a bad guy with a BB gun. Make sure you've always got an exit plan. Think ahead. 

I'm on a business trip for the last few days. I've received dozens of texts and calls a day - the usual - from my daughters and spent 30 seconds a day talking to the good Dr. usually about chores. I don't "miss" her, I don't go doe eyed when I walk out of the airport and she's waiting for me, that's about it.

The only thing I will feel bad about is that I will never find out for sure if it was pure evil or pure stupid that drove her to blow up her marriage, to sabotage it at every turn. But it will all be water under the bridge.

Remember my words. Drama is great if a goddess Italian actress is playing and you have some good food and wine.

Now if only my corporate expense credit card could be used for escort service


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. 

Same for me. M2 fvcked up our marriage in a different manner, but produced a somewhat similar result. I don't miss her when we are apart. 

But I am unable to harm her. Completely, totally unable to do anything that I know would harm her. 





john117 said:


> Well thank you! Part of the benefit of spending a decade studying the human mind is that if you're honest with yourself, and a critical thinker, you can really figure yourself out pretty well and prepare for your own reactions when bad things happen.
> 
> I use the Halo video game analogy often. Know what your character, weaponry, and so on can do. Don't think you can go after a bad guy with a BB gun. Make sure you've always got an exit plan. Think ahead.
> 
> ...


----------



## ToothFairy (May 19, 2013)

Should john start his own thread?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

You are a very smart man. This just took a long time to sink in because it is so very foreign to your nature. 

My hobby is compression. Expressing complex topics in the fewest possible words. So here goes:
- A2's need for space is just as powerful as
- Your need for sexual intimacy

You give her the space she needs and she will ......

   



QUOTE=alexm;10733970]I know, and I'm a dumb *** because this exact advice has been the cornerstone of so many posts here. I just never thought it applied to me, I guess. [/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

The thing that resonates with me when I read your posts is the complete and total lack of filtration. Total honesty is a beautiful thing. And in some ways you remind me of M2. 






GettingIt said:


> You want the "real thing" Alex--some men can't abide anything else but to have their desire for sex and intimacy matched by that of their wife. It's not an unreasonable wish, but one that you cannot simply ask for and get.
> 
> She does have to come to understand what sex means to you. This was part of the big hang up for me, but once I understood that my husband's need for an enthusiastic partner went well beyond his physical need, things really fell into place for me.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If Alex's wife is asexual (like she has previously said) then most of these changes won't have much effect on her. She will still have to self-manufacture the desire to have sex, even though when she gets going she enjoys the sex.

How sexual a person is really makes a difference in what will work or not work. Getting It is a highly sexual woman. But I think Mrs. Alex is asexual or gray sexual.

I've known of many people who have and enjoy sex but never crave it nor feel a real connection with the other person. So Alex, can you state what you want specifically?

My guess is...Frequent sex, initiated equally by you both, and feeling desire from her? Because I'm not sure there is any way to "attract" her into feeling what she doesn't feel (for anyone).


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

I might be wrong but this is what I truly believe:
- If Alex creates more space between them outside the bedroom, A2 will have more desire for closeness/intimacy IN the bedroom
- Worst case, by creating more space outside the bedroom she won't want to avoid the intense closeness of sex

I seriously doubt she will ever feel the same way about sex that Alex does. And the more he accepts that, the happier they both will be.....






Faithful Wife said:


> If Alex's wife is asexual (like she has previously said) then most of these changes won't have much effect on her. She will still have to self-manufacture the desire to have sex, even though when she gets going she enjoys the sex.
> 
> How sexual a person is really makes a difference in what will work or not work. Getting It is a highly sexual woman. But I think Mrs. Alex is asexual or gray sexual.
> 
> ...


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> FW,
> 
> I might be wrong but this is what I truly believe:
> - If Alex creates more space between them outside the bedroom, A2 will have more desire for closeness/intimacy IN the bedroom
> - Worst case, by creating more space outside the bedroom she won't want to avoid the intense closeness of sex


Or she will be happy to have more space and won't bother any more...  

You have to be very careful about this. It's a very fine line.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: FML*



In Absentia said:


> Or she will be happy to have more space and won't bother any more...
> 
> You have to be very careful about this. It's a very fine line.


Not really. Avoiding giving her space for fear of her doing nothing is only delaying the inevitable. 

If she responds in this manner, Alex can make a fully informed choice.


----------



## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> Awwww! See, this makes my heart beat faster. I love it when my husband does this for me. Why? Because through his security in himself, he shows me security for us. He's not going to let us fail, not going to let us go back to where we were. No matter what I do, he's going to take care of us by taking care of himself.
> 
> A man who will set boundaries _and then not blink_ is irresistible.


All those qualities that you mention in your post here should be present in wife as well. Would you agree with that?

In this small episode from MEM's life is there any reason not to lose a dose of respect for M2?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> FW,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More space also means "stay away"... I don't think most TAMmers understand how this works with disinterested partners. The relationship itself gets awkward with the non LD hoping to break the cycle and the LD simply staying the course to oblivion. 

Also they are generally good in separating bedroom and non bedroom behavior so outside the bedroom they can be great but not inside the bedroom.

Alex describes a textbook case of bait and switch and I do not believe there's a good answer to that. Before casting blame he needs to verify the assertion of bait and switch by understanding what material and practical things his wife brought into the marriage versus what she got from the marriage - that is, did she get married to get X, Y, and Z out of him?


----------



## Janky (Nov 26, 2013)

john117 said:


> *Also they are generally good in separating bedroom and non bedroom behavior so outside the bedroom they can be great but not inside the bedroom.*


Having been down this road before, the above stated is spot on.

Im just confused as to why OP married this woman 1.5 years ago even though the problem has been going on for several years....

I just dont buy the asexual excuse, seems like a cop out used that cant be questioned by OP.

"Sorry, thats just the way it is honey. Im asexual, so you cant be mad"


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> More space also means "stay away"... I don't think most TAMmers understand how this works with disinterested partners. The relationship itself gets awkward with the non LD hoping to break the cycle and the LD simply staying the course to oblivion.


yep... you are just doing them a favour... that's what they want. So you need to be ready to accept the consequences if that happens...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

john117 said:


> Alex describes a textbook case of bait and switch and I do not believe there's a good answer to that. Before casting blame he needs to verify the assertion of bait and switch by understanding what material and practical things his wife brought into the marriage versus what she got from the marriage - that is, did she get married to get X, Y, and Z out of him?


John, I don't believe this to be true any longer. The amazing advice and experience shared in this thread has led me to believe that this IS a case of being less attracted to me, not a bait and switch.

Generally speaking, our sex life was pretty much the same (ie. good to great) for a solid 3-4 years. This coincided with the period of time that we did not live together, nor even see each other every day.

As I said, around the time we moved in together, the decline started. Although easy to jump to the "now I have him, I don't have to work as hard" thoughts, I believe the truth to be more along the lines of independence vs dependence. Simply living together removes a lot of my own independence, there's no way around that. Most things become shared, including responsibilities and finances.

As I KNOW my wife to be huge in independence, I was immediately put at a disadvantage. Furthermore, seeing each other every day is a concept that was generally foreign to her, at least as far as our relationship goes. Yes, she has lived with others before, and they all ended up more or less the same, and likely for the same reasons.

So I was damned if I do, damned if I don't from the start in this regard. You can't live together (never mind with 2 children) and maintain the type of independence she desires/requires, neither from herself or from me. It's not possible.

For her part, I don't believe this to be a conscious requirement, rather it is simply a product of her upbringing and life experiences. We have discussed her lack of sexual attraction in the "normal" ways (ie. physical), and it's clear that attraction for her is based almost solely on the mental side of things.

I have not changed, personally, however the dynamic changed when we moved in together. I believe the little things, like asking her to help with something around the house goes a long way in changing how she viewed me. When it was me living by myself in a house meant for 4 or 5 people, I did everything on my own, primarily because I had no choice. It was those things that turned her on, so to speak. It is nigh impossible to be as independent as I was once, simply because of the living dynamic.

I believe she is slowly coming around to this idea that it is not ME who is less independent, it is simply circumstance.

But in a nutshell, up until 3 years ago, this is what she saw:

- a single man living on his own in a house meant for a family
- I was running my own successful business
- I took care of all household things myself, including cooking, cleaning, shopping, bills, etc.
- I had no kids of my own
- I had two vehicles
- we did not see each other 24/7, let alone every day
- about 50% of the time we spent with each other for a solid 3 years was kid-free (her kids would go to grandma and grandpa's)

How things currently are:

- 4 people living under one roof
- I'm still running my business, and although it is financially sound, it is not as successful as it was back then
- household chores are divvied up or shared
- I now have 2 step children
- we don't see each other 24/7, but it is every day, for the most part
- having a kid-free day is something that happens every 2 or 3 months now


So in essence, I am not as independent as I once was, but that's certainly not through anything I have done. Problem is, is her perception of me has changed as a result.

And yes, I have my own life, I go out with friends, I play sports, etc. But we always wake up next to each other the next morning.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> If Alex's wife is asexual (like she has previously said) then most of these changes won't have much effect on her. She will still have to self-manufacture the desire to have sex, even though when she gets going she enjoys the sex.
> 
> *FW, for all the talking about asexuality I've had on here, I'm not sure that's entirely what it is anymore. It makes sense, to a certain degree, but I think this may be more of a case of her not knowing her own sexuality, rather than not HAVING a sexuality.
> 
> ...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

TheStranger said:


> All those qualities that you mention in your post here *should be present in wife as wel*l. Would you agree with that?


I think it's less a question of "should" than it is a question of what the husband's needs are. 

The high level of security and confidence that I describe finding attractive is only what *I* seek from a partner--not something that every man *should* have. There are other women out there who desire the same thing I desire in a mate, and I'm guessing there are men who seek those traits from their wives. It's a matter of examining and understanding the needs of your particular dynamic. 

If you're lucky like I am, there is two-way communication to be able to figure this out and tweak the dynamic so each spouse understands what sort of behavior best suits the needs of the other. In a situation like MEM's on Alex's, they sort of have to examine the dynamic on their own, make changes to their own behavior, and see how those changes induce changes (or not) in their spouse. 



TheStranger said:


> In this small episode from MEM's life is there any reason not to lose a dose of respect for M2?


Do you mean do *I* have a reason to lose respect for her, or does MEM have reason to lose respect for her?

I don't really have a way to gauge how bad her behavior is, except through MEM's eyes. And he has his own perspective. She might be tempering her behavior a good deal to cope with him, just as he does to cope with her. 

I say that because, although I describe my own behavior as "bad" sometimes, it's only "bad" in my own marriage dynamic. Another man might take very little notice of my changes in mood--my husband, however, is highly attuned to my moods, and, if not careful, is highly affected by even a small change. 

Everyone has their off days. The litmus test my husband and I use to tell whether behavior (mine or his) is having a negative impact on our marriage is whether or not it affects desire. If one of us is sexually turned off, then it's time to fix things.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> The litmus test my husband and I use to tell whether behavior (mine or his) is having a negative impact on our marriage is whether or not it affects desire. If one of us is sexually turned off, then it's time to fix things.



Shouldn't people talk about what's affecting their relationship in a negative way _before_ if affects desire too? I never understood this, to be honest. If it's already affecting your desire, it could be too late.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Someone this independent and desirous of sex would find a way to get their needs with alternatives if the attraction to the marriage partner is "gone"...

We can sugarcoat it all we want. 

Think of a bicycle. Let's say you bought your first bicycle, a basic one, had some good rides, and a few years later realize you're not attracted to the heavy, feature poor single speed and would like a $7500 carbon fiber 15 pound wonder instead. But your finances don't allow splurging seven grand. Do you give up cycling altogether or keep rid in or buy a cheaper aluminum wonder?


Very few motivated and determined cyclists would choose giving up.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> Shouldn't people talk about what's affecting their relationship in a negative way _before_ if affects desire too? I never understood this, to be honest. If it's already affecting your desire, it could be too late.


Again, it depends on the dynamic. I'm sure some folks can go awhile with conflict before it begins to affect their desire or their drive. Not so for me. 

And when I say "desire" I mean the ability to be easily and quickly aroused if he initiates, and to have my drive strong and intact so I initiate often. 

Sure, I could still consciously decide to have sex with my husband even if I didn't feel the urge, or particularly feel like it. And that is perfectly fine sometimes--but not for the long run. Going through the motions isn't what he wants. He wants my desire to match his in intensity. 

After we fought to rebuild our marriage after 10 years of me feeling like I'd lost my libido for good, you can be dang sure I'm in tune to even the slightest dip in my desire. 

I read Alex's story and I see more hope than a lot of folks do because I know what it feels like to have lost all sexual desire for my husband. It's a hopeless feeling--I think I did feel asexual at times. But we had had 11 years of an awesome sex life before we got married, moved in together, and had kids. Those changes and the changes they wrought on both of us affected my desire in ways neither of us anticipated or understood. Digging out of the hole we eventually found ourselves in from the lost intimacy was not easy. Alex and his wife are no where as deep in the hole as my husband and I were. Now is the time for them to be working on this--not in another decade when they don't even like each other anymore.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> Someone this independent and desirous of sex would find a way to get their needs with alternatives if the attraction to the marriage partner is "gone"...


Again, I think you are wrong about his. My drive, as well as my desire, was much reduced during the years I lost attraction to my husband. Yes, there were times when I missed having a rockin' sex life. 

But you have to understand: there are plenty of people out there who will not cheat even when their sexual needs are not getting met. 

I didn't cheat and my HD husband didn't cheat through ten years of a real rocky patch. Neither of us had it in us--at least not in the circumstances we found ourselves.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> Again, I think you are wrong about his. My drive, as well as my desire, was much reduced during the years I lost attraction to my husband. Yes, there were times when I missed having a rockin' sex life.
> 
> But you have to understand: there are plenty of people out there who will not cheat even when their sexual needs are not getting met.
> 
> I didn't cheat and my HD husband didn't cheat through ten years of a real rocky patch. Neither of us had it in us--at least not in the circumstances we found ourselves.


I never cheated either... it's just not me...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I deal with populations - there are very few people that would handle 10 years of LD and even fewer that would recover from it...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> I deal with populations - there are very few people that would handle 10 years of LD and even fewer that would recover from it...


I observe many posters in SIM who are in bad marriages after 10 years or longer. Frustrations are high, quality of life is low, yet they have not cheated. Perhaps this particular sub forum attracts that sort of person because they desperate, they are miserable, but cheating is not an option for them due to their personality or their conscience, and they wish to avoid divorce at almost any cost. 

There is almost always something else they can try if they are willing--and that's why they are here. Looking for hope where there might be none, but not willing to stop trying yet.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And I know a couple people in real life that have cheated extensively in the same circumstances... 

And justified it just like I did. 

Both cases I know pretty well and both were blatant bait and switch.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> And I know a couple people in real life that have cheated extensively in the same circumstances...
> 
> And justified it just like I did.
> 
> Both cases I know pretty well and both were blatant bait and switch.


I don't deny that many people (most?) would cheat under those circumstances. But there are also plenty of folks who cannot lie to themselves enough to "justify" it in any way. I think we see a fair representation of those folks here in SIM. If they are looking for hope, for a different approach, then let them listen to the ideas they get here and decide for themselves is there is more they are willing to do before ending the marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I think the common thread I see here is that people following the advice they get on tam tend to learn to live with their bad situations rather than fix them. The vast majority of cases don't improve.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the common thread I see here is that people following the advice they get on tam tend to learn to live with their bad situations rather than fix them. The vast majority of cases don't improve.


I don't disagree that the vast majority don't improve, but I disagree that they follow the advice and that is why they fail. 

Most folks, you included, find this sort of advice hard to swallow, and harder to follow. Nothing wrong that--you know your limits and your boundaries and set them accordingly. 

Not everyone has the same limits or boundaries. What one person is willing to risk, or the amount of effort they are willing to put forth, often depends on what they are willing to lose. That, too, is a different line for everyone. Neither you nor I can assess that with certainty from where we sit--we can offer up our experiences and what we have learned works for our dynamics, and offer it to the OP. It's then up to the OP to decide which advice is most applicable to their situation. Is Alex's marriage dynamic more like yours or more like mine? Is he more like you, or more like my husband? *shrug* That's for him to decide. 

I am a big proponent of boundaries--set them and don't blink. Look at the results you get when you do that, and you have the answer with how (or whether) to proceed. MEM has pretty much perfected that, and others here have had great success in developing that skill as well. Yes, it's a skill--one that some folks find easier and more palpable to hone than others. 

What I observe here is that many folks are unwilling to set a boundary that will end up in the dissolution or further degradation of their marriage. They are uncomfortable where they sit, but not uncomfortable enough risk a situation that is even worse to their minds. So they sit where they are and stew in their discontent, and are just as culpable as their spouses when the sh*t hits the fan.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the common thread I see here is that people following the advice they get on tam tend to learn to live with their bad situations rather than fix them. The vast majority of cases don't improve.



Yep... Although I learned a couple of valuable lessons from my tenure in TAM:

1. It is a lot more common than people think

2. Vast majority of cases don't improve as stated

3. Consider my lucky stars working in that I got 25 good years and 5 bad...


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think the common thread I see here is that people following the advice they get on tam tend to learn to live with their bad situations rather than fix them. The vast majority of cases don't improve.


IDK, I think it's much more of a mixed bag. I think there have been a few recent threads where the romance improved (Curious wife?) while others let things stay stuck in the mud no matter what advice they received (won't name names here), and finally there are those who will vent but actually have a sex life o). Regardless of the background of the poster, I find it beneficial to participate on those threads where I think I can offer good input. Just my opinion, but in many cases the person offering suggestions can learn just as much (maybe more) than the person receiving the advice. I find most of those who regularly participate on TAM (and have at least a decent marriage to start) tend to be the ones most open to suggestions and ideas. It seems like those who don't improve are those who tend to not really want the help in the first place. They may say they want it, but if they don't do anything about the problem(s) then in the end they really didn't want the help in the first place.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> IDK, I think it's much more of a mixed bag. I think there have been a few recent threads where the romance improved (Curious wife?) while others let things stay stuck in the mud no matter what advice they received (won't name names here), and finally there are those who will vent but actually have a sex life o). Regardless of the background of the poster, I find it beneficial to participate on those threads where I think I can offer good input. Just my opinion, but in many cases the person offering suggestions can learn just as much (maybe more) than the person receiving the advice. I find most of those who regularly participate on TAM (and have at least a decent marriage to start) tend to be the ones most open to suggestions and ideas. *It seems like those who don't improve are those who tend to not really want the help in the first place.* They may say they want it, but if they don't do anything about the problem(s) then in the end they really didn't want the help in the first place.


Completely agree, especially with the bolded/underlined part.

I find that this place (TAM) attracts a lot of "last ditch effort" types, as in, this is the last resort for them. Unfortunately, many of them see this as no more than a "I tried" situation, and have no intention of listening to advice given. You can usually tell fairly quickly who these folks are. That shouldn't stop others from responding and offering up their words, as often threads are helpful to others reading them, not just the OP.

In my case, I am willing to listen, even though in past threads, I clearly did not. Perhaps I am one of the minority here on TAM who hasn't given up, and who has also realized he has to work on himself first and foremost.

Whether or not this is successful is up in the air. I have confidence the advice given here by folks such as GettingIT and Mem, and everybody else who contributed with solid information, will help in this regard.

Luckily for me, I am able to filter out the replies that some others have made, such as 'I wouldn't stay with a person like that' and 'it's not worth it', etc. (paraphrased). Others here may not do that. Whether they are pessimistic to begin with, easily swayed, or they have already given up, who knows.

I know that those like me who are open to actual advice (which can include criticism) see this place as invaluable. But I have a generally good attitude to life, have never been a quitter (even when I should have been sometimes...) and above all, I have a positive nature to begin with.

This alone, is important for my wife to see. That where others would have walked out long ago because they couldn't bothered, or they saw no hope. She knows that I have my breaking point, that I have my limits and boundaries, and that she can't just maintain the status quo and I'll stick around for good, but she also knows that those limits are not based around me not caring, and that they're not a direct threat, as in "I'll leave you if...".

My wife is an incredibly bright woman who is still very much learning about love and relationships. She is willing and capable of making changes in herself, something she fully admits she wasn't willing to do in the past, with others.

She has proven to me that I am important to her, and that she absolutely does not want to lose me and what we have. But it's a learning process, and we BOTH have to be careful of how we step, lest either one of us allows the other to get to the point of no longer caring.

She's worth it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GettingIt,

Most of the folks here don't grasp what an extraordinary change you pulled off in your marriage. 

Ruminators not only exhaust themselves, they tend to be emotionally draining in a myriad of subtle ways. 

And they are better than most at claiming false authorship. 

False authorship looks like this: They feel anxious, and select a course of action that requires their partner to help them manage their anxiety. 

And they then work backwards from there. Meaning, they then construct a reason/rationale for why their partner should be doing what they want. Sadly, that rationale is typically framed as an 'all about you' type thing. 

They say, I want/need you to do X, but the reason is not framed honestly. It always about something other than their anxiety. 





GettingIt said:


> Again, it depends on the dynamic. I'm sure some folks can go awhile with conflict before it begins to affect their desire or their drive. Not so for me.
> 
> And when I say "desire" I mean the ability to be easily and quickly aroused if he initiates, and to have my drive strong and intact so I initiate often.
> 
> ...


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

john117 said:


> there are very few people that would handle 10 years of LD and even fewer that would recover from it...


Hi John.

That's probably very true but Mr and Mrs T did it for around 8 years and it took another 2 years to get back on track. This past year has been amazing and a little unbelievable as well. We're more in love than we have ever been. So much so I can't help but  

Alex, you're a very rational man and a good husband. You seem to have a a very good read on your situation. I think you can pull it off if your wife is very open and honest with you. The communication can be brutal at times and it's a long rocky road. But, I'll tell you, it's worth all the hardship, if you guys can pull it off!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> - A2's need for space is just as powerful as
> - Your need for sexual intimacy
> 
> You give her the space she needs and she will ......


Classic example of the Pursuer - Distancer dynamic. One person wants/needs a close bond in the relationship, whereas the other wants/needs distance. The more the Pursuer tries to get close, the more the Distancer runs away. When the Pursuer gives up, the Distancer feels happy and thinks all is wonderful in the relationship. The Distancer has no idea how unhappy the Pursuer is.

These are not resolvable differences.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> What I observe here is that many folks are unwilling to set a boundary that will end up in the dissolution or further degradation of their marriage. They are uncomfortable where they sit, but not uncomfortable enough risk a situation that is even worse to their minds. So they sit where they are and stew in their discontent, and are just as culpable as their spouses when the sh*t hits the fan.


:iagree:

And to extend that a bit, we tolerate the intolerable rather than pull the plug on the marriage early on when things start going bad. Perhaps we become the boiled frog, or perhaps our families progress into more complicated situations where it becomes even more difficult to divorce.

I got to the point where I did not confront big things because they could easily go to divorce, and divorce was not an option due to the kids. And small things could only be minimally confronted, thus avoiding them becoming big issues which could become serious enough to end the marriage.

And thus we (I) lose all power to effect real changes or establish real boundaries.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The intolerable happens because the nonD (calling them LD is an overstatement) is clever enough to ratchet down the sex over a period of time and be convincing about it. And of course the normD falls for it every time.

It's not really a boiled frog because the nonD usually rationalizes the decision well. Not that it matters of course.

Sex is one of many situations where one partner steamrolls their views over the other, protected by the prevailing culture, the requisite number of children and the court system.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Thor said:


> Classic example of the Pursuer - Distancer dynamic. One person wants/needs a close bond in the relationship, whereas the other wants/needs distance. The more the Pursuer tries to get close, the more the Distancer runs away. When the Pursuer gives up, the Distancer feels happy and thinks all is wonderful in the relationship. The Distancer has no idea how unhappy the Pursuer is.
> 
> These are not resolvable differences.



yep, that's us....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The Distancer knows exactly how miserable the Pursuer is unless one or both are total morons. This is not TV


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

john117 said:


> The Distancer knows exactly how miserable the Pursuer is unless one or both are total morons. This is not TV


My wife doesn't... honestly. Since I've given up, she thinks "I got it at last" and therefore she is happy. Distancers only care about n. 1. If you are miserable, they don't try and fix the underlying reason, they run away even further. In fact, my wife "left me" at one point. That's the ultimate escape. Does that show you they know you are unhappy? Or maybe she is just a moron...


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

john117 said:


> The Distancer knows exactly how miserable the Pursuer is unless one or both are total morons. This is not TV


Yep.

They know alright. But they just do not care. You don't mean enough to them to matter. You are pretty far down on their inner totem pole.

The sufferer is usually too blind to see the one sided game they are in, the denier is 10 steps ahead in the game.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

john117 said:


> The intolerable happens because the nonD (calling them LD is an overstatement) is clever enough to ratchet down the sex over a period of time and be convincing about it. And of course the normD falls for it every time.
> 
> It's not really a boiled frog because the nonD usually rationalizes the decision well. Not that it matters of course.
> 
> Sex is one of many situations where one partner steamrolls their views over the other, protected by the prevailing culture, the requisite number of children and the court system.





john117 said:


> The Distancer knows exactly how miserable the Pursuer is unless one or both are total morons. This is not TV


My situation is not bait and switch, though it is unfortunately too common and amounts to the same thing for the Normal/High drive partner. My wife was quite sexual when we met and while dating. Her child sex abuse caused her to have major problems with sex in the few months leading up to the marriage and then after that. It is a well documented phenomenon due to the psych effects of the abuse.

Also common is the CSA victim marrying a Nice Guy, someone who treats her well, acts like a gentleman, and who doesn't like confrontation. She is naturally drawn to this.

So in these cases the typical profile is good sex up to the wedding, and then an abrupt decline. Sometimes the woman becomes unable to consummate the marriage on the wedding night. For many, sex takes a steep decline in the first month or first few months, becoming nearly extinct.

Now, the healthy male would say WTF, and either demand a turnaround or would D her. The Nice Guy, though, he typically blames himself for somehow causing this change. After all, she was sexual with others and had no difficulties before, so *he* must be the cause. He now tries ever harder to be Nice to her, which is precisely the opposite of what she needs.

She knows there is a problem but her views of sexuality are so distorted that she doesn't understand how it is emotionally distressing to her husband. She isn't being clever or calculated in ratcheting down the sex, she becomes triggered by sex and develops an aversion to it.

He can become the boiled frog by simply getting used to the low frequency, and as you say the prevailing culture helps keep him there by telling him this is normal in marriage, and it is brutish for him to want regular good sex.

I don't think a Distancer has any idea how unhappy the Pursuer is, and probably vice versa. Most times people don't realize the dynamics at work, and most people project their belief system onto others. So they each think the other would naturally want what they want, and think they'll both be happier if only the relationship would move in their direction.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I also dated a survivor of CSA over 3 decades ago. The end result was astonishing mutual intellectual attraction but very little physical action, uncharacteristic for people our age. But I did not mind it.

At the end we went our separate ways for graduate school, her in the UK and me in the USA. She must have been honest because she never married. That I do not consider bait and switch. Everything else is up for debate. 

Either she did not want to deal with it or more likely she could not. Considering she knew an awful lot about psychology and therapy (her specialty) she likely knew what she was dealing with but did not want to get into anything that would compromise what little peace of mind she had.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> I don't disagree that the vast majority don't improve, but I disagree that they follow the advice and that is why they fail.
> 
> Most folks, you included, find this sort of advice hard to swallow, and harder to follow. Nothing wrong that--you know your limits and your boundaries and set them accordingly.


I think the situations fall into two camps - those where one spouse is indeed LD and then situations where the partner isn't LD, but things aren't working for other reasons. My wife and you are in the same camp. We've both fixed things so it's no longer an (significant) issue in either of marriages. 

When the cause is low or no drive where there was some bait and switch to get into the relationship, then it's not going to improve. No matter what the higher drive spouse does, that person isn't going to have a drive.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

alexm said:


> I just want us to find a sweet spot where it's even. I want sexually intimacy every day, but that's unrealistic, even by high standards. I knew this 6 years ago and was never under the illusion that she, or most women, would be able to match this.


Daily is not THAT rare. Yes, it's not the norm but is out there.


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