# So I'm evidently a nice guy



## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

*So I'm evidently a nice guy (help)*

Seen references to the No More Mr Nice Guy book on TAM more times than I can count. Never really have it much thought. I knew I was at least a borderline nice guy, but that's what you have to do in a marriage. Right..... Well I was reading a post and someone posted a link to a nice guy quiz. I took it out of couriosity just for kicks. Well with a score of 71 it turns out I'm the poster child for nice guys. Reading his website it looks like nearly everything is speaking directly to me. 

Ok. I want to change. The book is available through I tunes which is great for me, because I don't like reading. But I have a question for people who have read this book and applied its principles. Will this make me a jerk? While I'm tired of being everyone's doormat, I'm not looking to become some arrogant ass that always has to have my own way. My wife and I have a great marriage right now, and I don't want to mess that up. I know there are areas where this will help me because my wife has expressed impatience with my lack of assertiveness in the past. I'm working on that, but progress is slow. 

Guess I'm just looking for testimonies from people who have read the book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've read the book (and I'm female) and no, it won't make you a jerk.

IMO, MMSL *will* make you a jerk, but NMMNG won't.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Ray, I wrote this on another thread:



> Don't let the title put you off, it's not advocating you not being nice (i.e. not being kind or considerate). More appropriately, it would have been named, "No More Doormat." I guess that wasn't as catchy, marketing-wise.


If you followed everything in that book to the letter, you would not turn into a selfish jacka$$. It's about being honest and direct, communicating your needs, and drawing/enforcing boundaries. None of that is jerk-ish; it is ALL about self-respect - and the more you like and respect yourself, the better off you are, no matter what other people do. No one ever died from too much self-respect.

You can get the PDF of the book for free right here. Take a gander but you know, like anything else, just reading it is not a cure-all. It takes action. And if parts don't resonate, that's okay. Treat it like a buffet: take what works, and discard the rest.

G'luck.


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Ray, the book definitely won't make you a jerk. If anything, it will have the opposite effect, as you begin to be assertive in a healthy way, telling others what you need, and not signing up people for unknown one-way contracts they'll probably not be able to live up to.

It's much better than trying to be manipulative to get what you want. It's much better than bottling up your unfulfilled needs and allowing them to explode periodically.

The last thing it will make you is a jerk.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

Being a nice guy is about doing things for others so that they will like you... The ultimate covert contract. 

I do something for you - you do something for me. We won't talk about it. I will just assume that you will know exactly what I need and that you will respond exactly how I am hoping you will.

Meanwhile, if you fall short of my expectations I will just secretly resent you because for me to express my aggravation might cause you not to like me. And being a nice guy I can't stand not being liked.

There could be no more frustrating a relationship as this...going through life just hoping someone will meet my needs...all the while I am risking nothing because I never actually state what I really want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ray, the opposite of a Nice Guy is NOT a jerk (though that's the common perception). The opposite is a man who is confident, does not need a woman to complete him, may WANT a woman but will not grovel or beg her for it. He will tell his woman what he wants and, if she's unwilling to provide it, will take steps to change his life.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

sh987 said:


> It's much better than trying to be manipulative to get what you want. It's much better than bottling up your unfulfilled needs and allowing them to explode periodically.
> .


Hey. That's me on both counts. 

Seriously. Many of the examples they give are things that have bothered me about myself for years. But I never connected them all together. Although the PDF is free. I'm gonna buy the iTunes audio book. I'm a truck driver so I have plenty of time to listen to it, and I comprehend things I listen to better than things I read. 

Should be interesting to see what happens and I'm nervous about changing. Been this way for 43 years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

I wish they would change the "nice guy" reference to its more accurate and more scientific term, "egocentric". Then no one would equate healing with 'turning into a jerk'.

A 'nice guy' is one full of self-doubt and guilt because of his ego. In a way, he's the true definition of a 'jerk', but a jerk that causes more harm to self than others.

If you're a nice guy, you either had an abusive father, a self-victimizing mother, or your parents fed you the same bullsh1t as the rest of our overly feminist society. That's the bottom line. You're going to have to re-parent the child in you. Thanks mom! Thanks Dad!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Neither NMMNG or MMSLP will make you a jerk. In fact, as a natural nice guy, it would probably be impossible for you to become a jerk. However, I will caution you that you may FEEL like a jerk sometimes. But that's natural. To a natural-born nice guy, becoming as assertive as a man should be will feel like being a huge jerk. Rest assured that you're simply going through some self-improvement.

Good luck.


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Prepare for a life changing journey for the better man. I'm happy for you.

When I first started reading it I was overwhelmed with more relief than grief because, like you, I couldn't put my finger on what wasn't right about me; I cried so hard that first day as I read it...tears of relief because I was finally receiving the self help I had prayed for.

Your life changes will not just effect you but everyone around you in a positive way...My wife seems more optimistic and positive nowadays. My Children seem more balanced and open. My business is moving in a positive direction, so on and so forth...

All this and I'm less than a year into the process; still learning and growing...it never ends. Think I'll break the PDF out and read it again this weekend.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

I'm excited, and kind if scared as hell at the same time. Although I don't want to feel like this anymore. In worried about how my changes will effect those around me. Especially my wife, who is used to (but not happy with) something totally different. 

I will buy the iTunes version but started reading the PDF version this morning.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> I'm excited, and kind if scared as hell at the same time. Although I don't want to feel like this anymore. In worried about how my changes will effect those around me. Especially my wife, who is used to (but not happy with) something totally different.
> 
> I will buy the iTunes version but started reading the PDF version this morning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she's like every other woman on the planet, she'll most likely have a very positive response to you working on areas of your personality which she's unhappy with.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Do not tell your wife you are reading the book. Just let her see the results.

Go join the forum at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin .


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Thor said:


> Do not tell your wife you are reading the book. Just let her see the results.
> 
> Go join the forum at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin .


:iagree::iagree::iagree: <--Strongly


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> I'm excited, and kind if scared as hell at the same time. Although I don't want to feel like this anymore. In worried about how my changes will effect those around me. Especially my wife, who is used to (but not happy with) something totally different.
> 
> I will buy the iTunes version but started reading the PDF version this morning.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is what Anchorwatch said to me when I announced I was scared:

"That's normal. You're afraid to step out of your comfort zone. You're conformable in your life, as bad as it is because you know how to exist there. It's amazing what crappy treatment we will put up with, not to face the unknown. 

Be assured, there are others here and at the other site that will walk along with you. 

Now YOU are going to rock the boat, not her. The difference is you will be prepared for the swell. 

Continue your reading...."


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Thor said:


> Do not tell your wife you are reading the book. Just let her see the results.
> 
> Go join the forum at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin .


Well she already knows. Emailed her a PDF version of it to look over. She said it probably something I should read. Mainly because my lack of assertiveness bothers her. Normally I wouldn't have showed it to her. But we are a few months into rebuilding our marriage. Things are really good right now. I did not want her to get blindsided if I start acting differently all the sudden. She seems all for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon (Jun 7, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Well she already knows. Emailed her a PDF version of it to look over. She said it probably something I should read. Mainly because my lack of assertiveness bothers her. Normally I wouldn't have showed it to her. But we are a few months into rebuilding our marriage. Things are really good right now. I did not want her to get blindsided if I start acting differently all the sudden. She seems all for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No sweat. My wife knows about it too but I didn't tell her about it until after things started moving in a positive direction for us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Do NOT discuss it with her. See? There's your first boundary.

This isn't about your wife.
It isn't even about your marriage.

If that makes you uncomfortable, then take it as a sign that you indeed have a lot of work to do.

Take the right steps in this effort and both you and your wife will benefit tremendously.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Do NOT discuss it with her. See? There's your first boundary.
> 
> This isn't about your wife.
> It isn't even about your marriage.
> ...


Well I know i have a lot of work to do but I disagree with that. Anything that ultimately effects the way I act or relate to my wife IS about her and my marriage. I am not the typical Nice Guy in that my wife does not treat me with contempt and we do currently have a good sex life. I'm not trying to pull myself together so I can dump her and move on. I'm working to heal myself and our marriage and be happily married another 20 years. 

The book also says its a great idea to read it with your wife so she can be aware and more ready for the changes when they happen. I have no idea where this hide it from your wife then shock her with the new you **** comes from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: So I'm evidently a nice guy*



Rayloveshiswife said:


> The book also says its a great idea to read it with your wife so she can be aware and more ready for the changes when they happen. I have no idea where this hide it from your wife then shock her with the new you **** comes from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It comes from the experiences of other men posting here about every time they tried some new way way of addressing an issue, having their wife say, "Oh, did your book tell you to do that?"

You certainly get to choose how you want to handle any of these circumstances. If your wife still respects you, then you are way ahead of most guys here.

Most, I'll reiterate, most guys that choose to include their spouse have it completely backfire on them.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Over on the official nmmng forums it is nearly unanimous that Doc Glover got this one part wrong. Wives tend to use the book against their husband. As soon as he changes she gets uncomfortable, and out comes the shaming and ridicule to get him back in line.

It is extremely rare for a husband to report a happy experience when his wife knows of the book.

Furthermore, many Nice Guys seek approval. Thus they are undermining themselves when they look to their wife to approve of their plan and their accomplishments.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Deejo said:


> It comes from the experiences of other men posting here about every time they tried some new way way of addressing an issue, having their wife say, "Oh, did your book tell you to do that?"
> 
> You certainly get to choose how you want to handle any of these circumstances. If your wife still respects you, then you are way ahead of most guys here.
> 
> Most, I'll reiterate, most guys that choose to include their spouse have it completely backfire on them.


I don't believe that will be as much of an issue for me as my wife does have respect for me, we get along well and have a good sex life. She also wants me to change and overcome my fears. On that I differ from most nice guys. I'm sure some of that desire for me to change will disappear when I start standing up and telling her what I want. But I am expecting most of the battle to be in my mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Let's put it this way ...

If she approves of everything you are doing?

You're doing it wrong. 

Best of luck.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

My husband read it, after I suggested it to him. The changes the book prompted were exactly the changes I was hoping for. It's hard for a woman to respect a man who doesn't respect himself. Nice guys get so lost in making sure everyone is happy, and happy with them, they demonstrate this passive behavior that is essentially unattractive.

I hope you wife is supportive, but if she isn't, she will have to adjust to the authentic man. Authenticity is much more attractive than placating.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

hang out with me young grasshopper and i can have you labled an arsehole like me...the sweetest arsehole my wife says


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Well I know i have a lot of work to do but I disagree with that. Anything that ultimately effects the way I act or relate to my wife IS about her and my marriage. I am not the typical Nice Guy in that my wife does not treat me with contempt and we do currently have a good sex life. I'm not trying to pull myself together so I can dump her and move on. I'm working to heal myself and our marriage and be happily married another 20 years.
> 
> The book also says its a great idea to read it with your wife so she can be aware and more ready for the changes when they happen. I have no idea where this hide it from your wife then shock her with the new you **** comes from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I read both books and unless you are a simpleton who has been walked all over for 20 years, are 50lbs overweight, and insecure as a warm piece of cow dung I don't see the point.

The books systematically cause you to NOT BE vulnerable, real, they advocate witholding emotion, and be selfish.

Hey what do I know I'm a Nice guy who is a control freak and has Monkey sex, so what do I know. :scratchhead::smthumbup:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> I read both books and unless you are a simpleton who has been walked all over for 20 years, are 50lbs overweight, and insecure as a warm piece of cow dung I don't see the point.
> 
> The books systematically cause you to NOT BE vulnerable, real, they advocate witholding emotion, and be selfish.
> 
> Hey what do I know I'm a Nice guy who is a control freak and has Monkey sex, so what do I know. :scratchhead::smthumbup:


I haven't read the book NMMNG, but I think you have completely missed the point. I'm guessing your attitude is what happens when a man who is on the "d1ckhead" side of the spectrum thinks he's a nice guy and reads the book. His take home message would be different from a Nice Guy reading the book.

There is another woman member here who has stated she would NEVER allow her H to read NMMNG! He's a bully, insensitive and selfish, she admits, and the book would only further skew his sense of entitlement.

I believe you might have just proved her point.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> My husband read it, after I suggested it to him. The changes the book prompted were exactly the changes I was hoping for. It's hard for a woman to respect a man who doesn't respect himself. Nice guys get so lost in making sure everyone is happy, and happy with them, they demonstrate this passive behavior that is essentially unattractive.
> 
> I hope you wife is supportive, but if she isn't, she will have to adjust to the authentic man. Authenticity is much more attractive than placating.


Bullseye.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

OhGeesh said:


> I read both books and unless you are a simpleton who has been walked all over for 20 years, are 50lbs overweight, and insecure as a warm piece of cow dung I don't see the point.
> 
> The books systematically cause you to NOT BE vulnerable, real, they advocate witholding emotion, and be selfish.
> 
> Hey what do I know I'm a Nice guy who is a control freak and has Monkey sex, so what do I know. :scratchhead::smthumbup:


I love it when people have nothing constructive to contribute yet open their mouth anyway. I tend to agree with Anon Pink
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> I love it when people have nothing constructive to contribute yet open their mouth anyway. I tend to agree with Anon Pink
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Of course you do darling. I'm right!


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> There is another woman member here who has stated she would NEVER allow her H to read NMMNG! He's a bully, insensitive and selfish, she admits, and the book would only further skew his sense of entitlement.


I resemble that! 

Imagine a fella who is very self-centered and controls the bank accounts reading this encouragement to "put yourself first" on page 66:

When the Nice Guy puts himself first *there is only one voice to consider — his own.* Decisions are now made by *one individual*, rather than by a committee. He no longer has to mind read, predict, or try to please multiple voices with conflicting agendas. When putting himself first all the information he needs to make a decision is within him:* "Is this what I want? Yes. Then that's what I'll do."*​
So, if he "wants" to drink, gamble, and use prostitutes instead of paying for his child's braces, heat for the house, rent, or whatever else it is the "multiple voices" of his wife and children at home want...
well he has just been validated in his selfishness by what the book said.

Personally, I think the Boundaries books by Cloud and Townsend might yield similar personal growth without the same potential for twisting to justify evil.

Also, I went and skimmed the marriage section at the forum someone linked above, and BLECH, some of those men sound like they are using the book to be pricks!!! Just sayin'


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Blonde...no, that just isn't true about drinking and gambling away the family money instead of buying braces. The book says nothing like that. The part you quoted is just a general statement of how a man should be and feel autonomous (and women should, as well). There are many parts of the book that talk about how if you are screwing your wife or family over in ANY WAY - such as drinking and gambling when you should be at home - is NOT cool.

Have you actually read the book?

I'm not saying your husband should read it. I am just saying that it does not contain the type of messages you implied above.

As for the forum...there are some jerks over there, and there are quite a few here, too. Jerks gonna be jerkin'.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Have you actually read the book?
> 
> I'm not saying your husband should read it. I am just saying that it does not contain the type of messages you implied above.
> 
> As for the forum...there are some jerks over there, and there are quite a few here, too. Jerks gonna be jerkin'.


FW, what is indented above* is a direct quote out of the book*

I have skimmed the book. Just now I found that quote in @60 seconds by looking at the table of contents and clicking on the truly outrageous chapter titles (highlighted):


Introduction
Chapter One
The Nice Guy Syndrome
Chapter Two
The Making Of A Nice Guy
Chapter Three
*Learn To Please The Only Person Who Really Matters*
Chapter Four
*Make Your Needs A Priority*
Chapter Five
Reclaim Your Personal Power
Chapter Six
Reclaim Your Masculinity
Chapter Seven
Get The Love You Want: Success Strategies For Intimate Relationships
Chapter Eight
Get The Sex You Want: Success Strategies For Satisfying Sex
Chapter Nine
Get the Life You Want: Discover Your Passion And Potential In Life, Work, And Career
Epilogue


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

No one who is married with children should consider him/her self "the only person who matters"

No. One.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Blonde said:


> No one who is married with children should consider him/her self "the only person who matters"
> 
> No. One.


Except for a guy who has put the needs of others before his own for his entire life, thus ending up here and wondering why his wife wants nothing to do with him and nobody respects him.

Learning to be selfish is a NECESSARY step for a classic Nice Guy. Their wiring tells them it's fundamentally wrong, people won't like them (and being liked and approved of is paramount to a Nice Guy) and that someone may get hurt as a result. 

People fail to understand that one cannot be assertive unless they understand the concept of selfishness; serving the self, not indulging in every passing whimsy.

The man in your life is not the target audience of the book. Not remotely. The goal is becoming an integrated, and balanced male.

Nice Guys are far from balanced. Nor is the kind of man you describe.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I've reviewed your other threads.

So? What do you see as your biggest hurdle?

Where do you plan to start?


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I haven't read the book NMMNG, but I think you have completely missed the point. I'm guessing your attitude is what happens when a man who is on the "d1ckhead" side of the spectrum thinks he's a nice guy and reads the book. His take home message would be different from a Nice Guy reading the book.
> 
> There is another woman member here who has stated she would NEVER allow her H to read NMMNG! He's a bully, insensitive and selfish, she admits, and the book would only further skew his sense of entitlement.
> 
> I believe you might have just proved her point.


LOL, how you got that out of me not liking one of you favorite books is beyond me, but okay  whatever floats your boat. Judge much:scratchhead:

You could have just said "I think they are really helpful "


Reason I think I'm a nice guy:

1) I put my wife's/kids's needs before my own, but am not resentful like a typical Nice guy. I think it's the mans job to sacrifice more for the ones in his life. I do dishes, wash clothes, take the kids all around, cook, will do whatever needs to happen to make sure she feels like a queen of my castle.

2) We NEVER argue EVER 

3) She get's tons of freedoms trips, girl time, surprise new cars, surprise spa days, things to make her feel super special. Sticky notes, flowers, cheesy sexting messages.

4) I am a control freak though and handle all of the finances, retirement, and big purchases.

5) Am a huge fan of crazy monkey sex, toys, and flirting all day.


So, maybe I'm a mix of both put her on a pedastal, but still take care of business.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Blonde...when I said "it does not contain the kind of message you implied", I didn't mean the part you quoted from the book. You implied that the book would encourage a man to gamble or lose money instead of buying the kid braces. The book does not contain THAT type of message, the one you are implying.

As for the table of contents, you still can't read a book by the table of contents (or its cover). You see, it says "learn to please the only person who really matters", but it does not say not to please anyone else. What this means is that the intended reader has NEVER learned to get their own emotional needs met in a healthy way. The intended reader seeks validation and approval from others because he has never learned to give them to himself.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Blonde...when I said "it does not contain the kind of message you implied", I didn't mean the part you quoted from the book. You implied that the book would encourage a man to gamble or lose money instead of buying the kid braces. The book does not contain THAT type of message, the one you are implying.
> 
> As for the table of contents, you still can't read a book by the table of contents (or its cover). You see, it says "learn to please the only person who really matters", but it does not say not to please anyone else. What this means is that the intended reader has NEVER learned to get their own emotional needs met in a healthy way. The intended reader seeks validation and approval from others because he has never learned to give them to himself.


The author says (page 62):

*Becoming Truly Selfish*
When I began writing this book I shared the early drafts with members of my No More Mr. Nice Guy! men's groups. On one occasion, a group member stated, "It seems like the whole emphasis of the book is about focusing on one's self. It seems really selfish and self-centered, like the Nice Guy should just think about himself and not worry about anyone else."

Even though I did not set out to write No More Mr. Nice Guy! with this theme in mind, this group member's comments contained an important truth that I hadn't even been fully conscious of before then. Since Nice Guys learned to sacrifice themselves in order to survive, recovery must center on learning to put themselves first and making their needs a priority.​
FW, been through my own recovery from being a doormat using books like "Codependent No More" by Melody Beatty and "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend, among others. So I really do "GET" what he's saying.... *HOWEVER*

I don't wish to dwell in the past- my marriage is better since I grew a backbone and am "selfish" about getting my and the children's needs met. *You'll just have to take my word for it *that some men will cherry pick and find passages to justify in being selfish and self centered. Things like I have quoted will just give them ammo for more bad behavior. (see their forum under "marriage" for examples)

My experience with marriage was seriously warped by male entitlement interpretations of about 6 verses out of the entire Bible. If someone can take the Bible and twist it to justify abuse, well... Glover's in good company anyway


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Blonde said:


> some men will cherry pick and find passages to justify in being selfish and self centered. Things like I have quoted will just give them ammo for more bad behavior.


True. Those are not Nice Guys to begin with.

Nice Guys are over on one end of the spectrum. They subjugate their needs and desires for everyone else. They get upset, but don't believe they have the right to be upset, so it comes out as passive aggressiveness.

Where they should be is in the middle of the spectrum, finding a healthy balance. In a family this means making some sacrifices, but it also means getting what he wants sometimes, even if it annoys other people. For example, sacrifice by not buying all the fancy clothes, nice toys, etc because the kids need an education. But it also means going over to a buddies house for beers and poker despite it being inconvenient sometimes for the wife.

So, the Nice Guy feels like he is being a Class A Jerk when he goes to his buddy's house the first time. This is the perspective of the book: The man has to do things which feel uncomfortable or jerky in order to be where he should be, which is in the middle.

Now the real jerk is already over on the other side of center, and thus he should be making more concessions not being more selfish. If your husband is a selfish jerk, he shouldn't be reading NMMNG.

One other thing. NMMNG talks about being Integrated, which basically means living with integrity to oneself. For most of us this means being generous, kind, thoughtful, loving, and responsible adults. So by being true to our values we will in fact be a better husband and a better father. If someone is a selfish sociopath he may be true to his own values but he is going to be a lousy person.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Lol 
Wow. I was not aware that my wife posted here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> Well I know i have a lot of work to do but I disagree with that. *Anything that ultimately effects the way I act or relate to my wife IS about her and my marriage. I am not the typical Nice Guy in that my wife does not treat me with contempt and we do currently have a good sex life.* I'm not trying to pull myself together so I can dump her and move on. I'm working to heal myself and our marriage and be happily married another 20 years.
> 
> *The book also says its a great idea to read it with your wife so she can be aware and more ready for the changes when they happen. *I have no idea where this hide it from your wife then shock her with the new you **** comes from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thought I would pipe in on this thread... I have not read all the posts or know too much about your personal issues with your wife.... when reading here on TAM, so many of us -we speak out of our own personal experiences..(so some men have learned , the hard way it might be better to not talk to their wives about this... that was their experience)...

However, not everything is so black & white, depending... I would say...*it depends on the wife*, how your relationship is geared.....we are not all the same... in your opening post, you mentioned being afraid that reading this book, it may turn you into a Jerk... (or something to that effect)..... Can I say.. .you sound an awful lot like MY HUSBAND... I call him a "genuine" nice guy often on here.. because I really don't have issues with the way he is.. for the most part..

Though he was too passive in the past to his own needs (in sex)... *but I was the one who bought the book*, I was curious because it offended me how people were talking about MEN like my husband on this forum, I was really getting ticked off at times and wanting to see what that was all about....

We went over the 1st couple chapters together... (I think it's a wonderful book)... again....depending on YOUR wife, and how she is , understanding, working with you... is how I would look at sharing these things with her... it certainly didn't hurt US in any way !.. but then my husband would have never in his life picked up a book to read either.. .

Here is an outline...

Taken from  No More Mr. Nice Guy! 

Here is a list of NICE GUY Characteristics - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of coarse.



> Nice Guys are Givers
> 
> Nice Guys fix & Caretake
> 
> ...


There is problems with each one of those -the motivation behind the doing is the issue. What is happening is -- These men have been conditioned to believe that if they are "NICE" they will be loved, get their needs met and have a smooth life. 

Here is the "not-so nice" traits of Nice Guys ...



> Nice guys can be Dishonest, secretive, compartmentalized, manipulative, controlling, they give to get, passive aggressive, some are full of rage, additive, have difficulty setting boundaries, frequently isolated, often attracted to people & situations that need fixing, frequently have problems in intimate relationships, have issues with sexuality, usually only relatively successful .


Of course those are not true for every Nice guy, my husband fit 4 of those plus a few we considered halfs in his case. 

Good book, it will make many things clear to you to help you WIN HER respect...and in this you will feel better about yourself too....

ANother wonderful book would be this ...

Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend: Books



> Learn when to say yes and when to say no--to your spouse and to others--to make the most of your marriage Only when a husband and wife know and respect each other's needs, choices, and freedom can they give themselves freely and lovingly to one another.
> 
> Boundaries are the 'property lines' that define and protect husbands and wives as individuals. Once they are in place, a good marriage can become better, and a less-than-satisfying one can even be saved. Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend, counselors and authors of the award-winning best-seller Boundaries, show couples how to apply the 10 laws of boundaries that can make a real difference in relationships.
> They help husbands and wives understand the friction points or serious hurts and betrayals in their marriage---and move beyond them to the mutual care, respect, affirmation, and intimacy they both long for. Boundaries in Marriage helps couples:
> ...


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I've reviewed your other threads.
> 
> So? What do you see as your biggest hurdle?
> 
> Where do you plan to start?


I'm assuming your addressing me. 

My biggest problem is a lack or assertiveness and self confidence. It's been a problem for my wife and has caused some respect issues for her. I have been working on this myself over the last few months by myself and made some progress, but nowhere near where I want to be. My wife is not controlling and resentful like many nice guy wives. She will help me get what I want and need if I can just learn to voice it and make what I need a priority. 

I also put everyone else's needs above my own. Someone else said that his sounds like a trait of a good father or husband. It is, to a point. But if you never satisfy your own needs at some point you will just stop caring about anyone else at all regardless of weather your needs are getting met or not. I need toward to make time for me. 

There are other smaller issues I want to address. But those are probably the biggest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A great book to read on this subject is Hold On To Your N.U.T.S., from BetterMen Coaching: We Make Good Men Bettter | Coach Los Angeles | life coach for men


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

2ntnuf said:


> Ray,
> 
> When you make a choice for yourself, and follow through, are you criticized by anyone close to you? Is what you do called into question by folks you consider important or semi-important in your life?
> 
> ...


Ok. Answers to your questions

I think anyone would answer yes to this at some point in time.

I generally do not let people know what im up to until Ive either done it or atleast figured out a way to successfuly complete it. 

I am not really affraid to make a mistake unless it involves my family or finances or it is something so big that it is not easily fixed. In situations like that I usually put off deciding what action to take and get in trouble for that. 

I find out on my own about 90% of the time. Fixing my marriage is one of the few exceptions to that.

Not sure on that one. But I'll go with "If I full fill their needs that maybe they will full fill my unspoken needs". Rarely seems to work though.

My wife is a social talker and I am not. She can talk for hours about nothing. As a compromise I am trying to engage her more in conversation and she is trying to be content with the short and to the point conversations I am capable of.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Rayloveshiswife said:


> I'm assuming your addressing me.
> 
> My biggest problem is a lack or assertiveness and self confidence. It's been a problem for my wife and has caused some respect issues for her. I have been working on this myself over the last few months by myself and made some progress, but nowhere near where I want to be. My wife is not controlling and resentful like many nice guy wives. She will help me get what I want and need if I can just learn to voice it and make what I need a priority.
> 
> ...


Start small and build from there. I actually started at work. This is also where I got my biggest pay-offs on the confidence and assertiveness fronts. If I understand, you are a driver, so I don't know how frequent, or common interaction is with work supervisors, peers, or customers, but that is certainly a good place to start.

It can be surprising in just how small the ways manifesting a little assertiveness can be. And people notice.

Are you the guy that co-workers, family and friends always go to ask favors of? For little other reason than they know you will do it?
If so, start saying 'No'.

There is also a very easy and effective retort if people give you grief about saying no. "You don't like that answer?" It will either catch them off guard, making their protests look silly, or you are compelling them to explain themselves. Importantly, that little sentence depersonalizes the response. They may not like the answer, but it doesn't mean they don't like you. Hell, they may not like you anyway.

Engage with and consult your wife LESS. This doesn't mean be a jerk and ignore your wife. It simply means that you actively pay attention to the dynamic you currently have in your relationship and modify it as needed.

Do you execute on what needs to get done, or ask for permission or seek her approval?

Do you consistently share fears or concerns?

Do you enforce boundaries or consequences when your spouse exhibits bad behavior or do you say 'that's ok' or work silently to smooth things over?

Do you apologize for things that upset your spouse despite the fact you did nothing wrong?

If you feel compelled to answer or provide examples of any of the scenarios above, or anything that commonly occurs between you and your spouse, that would be great, but I'll point out the obvious; consistently behaving in a manner similar to any or all of those above will in most cases, undermine and actively diminish attraction and respect.

The phone thing for example. This is flat out about respect. And it's teachable. If you are engaged with her than the phone is off limits, simple. You don't need to be a control freak, shout or yell.

Just stop talking.

Leave the room. Not in disgust or anger, just walk away and find something else to do ... just like she did. 

If you want to go for bold, reach out with your hand and put it on hers and say without any overt tone; "You're being disrespectful."
If you can do this, congratulations, because you have also opened the door for conflict.

And that is the last bit I'll leave you with. Understand, if you make the changes you need to make, your wife IS going push back on them. You will be changing the status quo, and without doubt be changing the way you and she interact in either overt or subtle ways, and she isn't going to like all of them, even if she is aware of what you are doing and is supportive of it, Just a head's up.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Understand, if you make the changes you need to make, your wife IS going push back on them. You will be changing the status quo, and without doubt be changing the way you and she interact in either overt or subtle ways, and she isn't going to like all of them, even if she is aware of what you are doing and is supportive of it, Just a head's up.


But after awhile, she's going to start wondering why she's been finding you so attractive lately.


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