# Update on my sexless marriage



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello all,

I haven't been on in a very long time. The last time I visited was probably around February 2012. We had not had sex in about 15 months up until that point. We had sex sometime in May and about 4 more times until August. I was feeling good and thinking we were making gains. I have been nothing more than committed, ready to communicate, and emotionally supportive. But once again, we haven't had sex since early August. She seems to be her happiest when I don't try to make a move. She still has a hard time when I tell her she looks sexy or caress her arm. When we can, I take her out on dates, though money is tight as I've been the only one working for quite a while, working 1 1/2 jobs. 

As you can imagine, I've been down on our marriage, though I try to be positive and optimistic. Anyways, I wanted to announce that I'm back and that I want to rejoin this community in hopes of receiving and providing support.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Welcome back. Sorry to hear the improvements aren't to size/amount you'd like.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

thanks kingsfan,

I appreciated that we were trying, but I'm worried that the sex in May-August was just a phase to get me to shut up, deal with her guilt, or whatever, but had less to do with genuinely caring about our intimacy.


----------



## Dubya (Oct 2, 2012)

are you running the MAP?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

What is the MAP?


----------



## Dubya (Oct 2, 2012)

Its where a man starts to focus on himself and in that focus makes improvements that either draw his wife closer to him or puts him in the best possible position to leave and seek happiness.

Stands for Male Action Plan and is part of the Married Man's Sex Life Primer written by Athol Kay ( i believe).

I think it makes a lot of sense for guy at the end of his rope.


----------



## ChristineReynolds (Nov 8, 2012)

I feel for you Joe. You seem like a good guy that is just wanting a good healthy relationship with your wife. Going 15 months without having sex and then every now and then after that just isn't a healthy relationship though. Something is up, and you need to sit down and have a heart to heart with her. Find out if there is something you can change to make her happier. To me, it sounds like there is a good chance she may be depressed. You can help her though, and she should appreciate your genuine concern for her happiness.


----------



## Dubya (Oct 2, 2012)

How does this strike you?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/60223-finally-read-mmsl.html

guy is talking about reading the book I just mentioned above.. the thread is active... jump in


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Confirms my beliefs. Leopards don't change their spots. Faced with a nonsexual partner, you can dump them or you can learn to live a basically celibate existence. You might get the occasional crumb they throw to convince you they are trying, but it's not sincere, it doesn't last, and the effort is made to just to shut you up or to keep you hanging around for more exploitation.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

ChristineReynolds said:


> I feel for you Joe. You seem like a good guy that is just wanting a good healthy relationship with your wife. Going 15 months without having sex and then every now and then after that just isn't a healthy relationship though. Something is up, and you need to sit down and have a heart to heart with her. Find out if there is something you can change to make her happier. To me, it sounds like there is a good chance she may be depressed. You can help her though, and she should appreciate your genuine concern for her happiness.


Thank you for your kind words and advice. I've had some sitdowns with varying degrees of success. Each time I try to consider her needs, using "I" statements and reducing blaming language. However, I tend to neglect my needs in the process as I see her get upset or guilty. 

I've asked her about her mood and have offered to help, but she denies being depressed. She just tells that all breastfeeding mothers go through sexlessness and Hs are supposed to be patient. Lately, I've been patient to the point that I've stopped making contact recently (I own up to that). Our child is almost 2 years old now.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Dubya said:


> How does this strike you?
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/60223-finally-read-mmsl.html
> 
> guy is talking about reading the book I just mentioned above.. the thread is active... jump in


Thanks, Dubya. I can relate to the OP. I was an athletic man (not as much now) and am a leader, well liked, and confident in most settings. I'm emotionally supportive in my marriage, but my W's emotional reactions such as her feelings of guilt, sadness, anger can sometimes be overwhelming and so I bend. I get uncomfortable with her discomfort and just take it on myself to cope. I'll look into this book. Thanks!


----------



## Dubya (Oct 2, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks, Dubya. I can relate to the OP. I was an athletic man (not as much now) and am a leader, well liked, and confident in most settings. I'm emotionally supportive in my marriage, but my W's emotional reactions such as her feelings of guilt, sadness, anger can sometimes be overwhelming and so I bend. I get uncomfortable with her discomfort and just take it on myself to cope. I'll look into this book. Thanks!


Anytime, bud. 

Oh, and if she is breast feeding, that will have a hormonal impact. 

One thing that is key: she has to get the fact that sex is a true emotional need for most men. Patience only goes so far...

Maybe "His Needs Her Need's" by Harley could help her see that


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Dubya said:


> Anytime, bud.
> Maybe "His Needs Her Need's" by Harley could help her see that


True, but she doesn't see it as a problem on her part. The problem is i have a sex drive. Even when I would make a move biweekly, i was labeled an uncontrollable horndog.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wait, you mean being a pushover doesn't work even it you try it for 15 months? Well definitely keep trying it! Or read mmsl and consider a different path.


----------



## jumperdono (Nov 9, 2012)

Its where a man starts to focus on himself and in that focus makes improvements


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> True, but she doesn't see it as a problem on her part. The problem is i have a sex drive. Even when I would make a move biweekly, i was labeled an uncontrollable horndog.


Maybe point out to her that studies claim on average couples in North American have approximately 100 times a year (or just under twice a week) and that if you are an uncontrollable horndog for want sex biweekly then so are the typical men (and women) in the continent. Then add that what is more likely is that you aren't an uncontrollable horndog, she's a prude whose been allowed to run roughshod over the marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thank you for your kind words and advice. I've had some sitdowns with varying degrees of success. Each time I try to consider her needs, using "I" statements and reducing blaming language. *However, I tend to neglect my needs in the process as I see her get upset or guilty.*


Why are your needs less important that her anger and guilt? Consider she is using these emotions (maybe even unintentionally) to control you and avoid addressing the issue.

If her actions result in her feeling guilty, why is it your responsibility to ease that guilt?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Why are your needs less important that her anger and guilt? Consider she is using these emotions (maybe even unintentionally) to control you and avoid addressing the issue.
> 
> If her actions result in her feeling guilty, why is it your responsibility to ease that guilt?


They are not less important and she probably is using them on some subconscious level. I understand that on a cognitive level, but it's harder in the moment when my nurturing side gets in the way. I'm practicing my coping skills to stay persistent in light of her emotional reactions. Actually, once I laughed to myself a bit because one of her tantrums were comical. Then I composed myself and expressed my point of view


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your child is 2. The breastfeeding is a way to keep you away from her, not to nurture the baby. 

I bet if you addressed that directly you would get a very surprising response. 

Babe - I know you hate sex with me so let's stop pretending this is about breastfeeding. Since I already know how you feel about it, how about you tell me why. 

And when she cries you sit back dead silent until she stops or runs out of the room. The fact she can manipulate you so easily is a part of the problem. 

She sees you as a big strong stupid easily manipulated male. And if you listen carefully you will hear it in how she talks to you.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Stop using words and communicate with facial expressions of disbelief and amusement. And stop being her servant. I bet she asks you to perform many acts of service. Practice saying 'I am not going to be able to do that'. 
Don't apologize and don't explain and don't argue. Say it once and change the subject. If need be, end the conversation. 

Because you talk and then she gives you assignments to confirm you are still submissive to her desires. And you do them. Even if you complain you do them.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

I also call BS on the breastfeeding element being a sex drive killer. My son is 4 months old - I want sex nearly daily. It's also unreasonable to expect that only one person's needs should be met in a marriage.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> I also call BS on the breastfeeding element being a sex drive killer. My son is 4 months old - I want sex nearly daily. It's also unreasonable to expect that only one person's needs should be met in a marriage.


Yes, I agree with the one person's needs part. I did read that breastfeeding can mess with some women's hormones though. However, that just explains what's going on and doesn't excuse as I believe someone had mentioned earlier. I believe she is having a physical soon, so maybe we can rule out medical concerns.


----------



## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

Last resort: Persistent Courting Technique

In a sexless marriage, if the husband has tried all he could for a long time, he should set up a break point for the marriage. Deep down, your wife will feel if you are sex desirable, or not. Action speak louder than language. If husband finally forces the sex issue by a direct confrontation, it will has the effect of a wake up call: Either you love your husband sexually, or not. There are no meaning to continue an unhappy, sexless marriage.

You can use various ways for the confrontation. It should be persistent enough to the point that your wife decline you sex knowing marriage is over, or she accepts you for the sake of your marriage. Either way, both of you should have a serious look at the sex issue. Sex should not be dismissed by the wife lightly without any real consequence. The marriage itself should be on the line.

I just described a way for the confrontation and gave it a name Persistent Courting Technique. It is not rape. It is a showdown on the sex issue. Some people felt offend by it as they imagine themselves in this ugly situation. For any sex confrontation, it will be discomfort and intense. This is just "live free or die". Have a consensual sex and let the marriage come to life, or not. Do not fix un-fixables and always bump your head on the wall. How many time of bleeding will you tolerate before call it an end?

We are here to offer our opinions and suggestions. I offer this last-resort advice not because I like it, but because I want to be honest and offer a different approach. I do not force anybody to follow it, just a view from a different angle. I was very disappointed by the feed back I got here. I know people feel differently. But please do not attack other posters just because you do not like their opinion. If you call others garbage, your are what you called.


----------



## FoolMeOnce (Oct 16, 2012)

I had a thyroid problem brought on by pregnancy that went undiagnosed for three years, when I finally figured it out myself thanks to typing some symptoms into Google. I had even told my gynecologist I was concerned about no sex drive. She told me I had more pressing issues and was tired because of new baby and breast feeding. Have your wife get some blood tests. My poor husband! I had absolutely no desire whatsoever for three years, and all I wanted was some sleep.


----------



## Katydid4841 (Nov 10, 2012)

I know this is hard for men to understand, but for a man to go without sex the consequence is that he feels unloved, right? To a woman, if we force ourselves to have sex without being into it just to make our men happy, we feel disgusted, used, shamed, guilted, compromised, viiolated...and by our HUSBAND no less, the one man we thought would NEVER make us feel objectified. So forgive me, but your **** might not be quite as important as her moral integrity. And For the dude with the "Persistent Courting Technique", I hope that works out real well for you. I hope your wife does call the police because there are laws against emotional and sexual abuse in a marriage.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Katy 
When you get to the point where giving yourself to your h on a regular basis makes you feel violated - you need to stop taking anything else from him. His love, his financial support, whatever. 

Otherwise you have become a parasite


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> True, but she doesn't see it as a problem on her part. The problem is i have a sex drive. Even when I would make a move biweekly, i was labeled an uncontrollable horndog.


I was told I was needy. It's been 4 months. I told her how about hugging me tonight. Sure she says - I hop in the shower for 5 minutes and come back to a sound asleep wife on the edge of the bed. That actually pisses me off as she knows I don't even try anymore and that a hug is a hug. That's it I am waking her up in a couple if minutes...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Katydid4841 (Nov 10, 2012)

MEM - I'll let you tell my kids that mommy and daddy have to live separately not be a family anymore because daddy needs sex more than mommy needs to feel appreciated for more than her holes.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Wow, shot down - I don't want to lay on you - your hand is too hot. Wow. I am awarding myself a medal for sanity as I should be insane!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Katydid4841 (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh, and between the two of us my husband has worked 3 weeks this year to my 60 hours a week. But I'm the leach, right? Your assumptions betray your ignorance. And I'll continue to support him emotionally and mentally and give him TONS of affection. All I ask is for his patience. Thanks for asking.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

No - let your kids know that mommy is leaving daddy because he found an external source of sexual fulfillment and her ego refused to let her see this for what it was: his refusal to agree to her demand that he live like a priest.

The worst thing about this is you are looking for people to tell you this is ok. It isn't. 

If he has disgusting habits - tell him. If he is lazy - tell him. If you were never that attracted - tell him.

Whatever it is - step up - because this angry combative self justifying attitude will not fly for long with a real man.




Katydid4841 said:


> MEM - I'll let you tell my kids that mommy and daddy have to live separately not be a family anymore because daddy needs sex more than mommy needs to feel appreciated for more than her holes.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Wow, shot down - I don't want to lay on you - your hand is too hot. Wow. I am awarding myself a medal for sanity as I should be insane!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And now, off to the bathroom for manual stimulation...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

loveisforever said:


> Last resort: Persistent Courting Technique
> 
> This is for a guy with nice-guy syndrome who is denied sex by his wife frequently. The underlying reason is:
> 1) Power struggle and man-women role reversal: Nice guy listens to wife too much, cater to wife too much. Now, wife is in power. When wife in power, less sex for her man. When man in power, more sex for his wife.
> ...


Well, that made me feel sick. If my husband started _following me around the house_ hassling me for sex when I didn't feel like it, I'd invite him to follow me outside and then I'd lock all the doors.

Oh, and I add my support to the breastfeeding/low libido being a bs excuse. Maybe if she was exclusively breastfeeding a newborn, but a two year old? No. I've been breastfeeding continually for the past six years, and it never affected my libido. At this stage, the only hormone that would be different from a non-breastfeeding woman is prolactin. Her oxytocin may be raised too, during a feed, but neither of those should make a difference, if she doesn't want them to.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Well, that made me feel sick. If my husband started _following me around the house_ hassling me for sex when I didn't feel like it, I'd invite him to follow me outside and then I'd lock all the doors.
> 
> Oh, and I add my support to the breastfeeding/low libido being a bs excuse. Maybe if she was exclusively breastfeeding a newborn, but a two year old? No. I've been breastfeeding continually for the past six years, and it never affected my libido. At this stage, the only hormone that would be different from a non-breastfeeding woman is prolactin. Her oxytocin may be raised too, during a feed, but neither of those should make a difference, if she doesn't want them to.


Whoever wrote that forgot step 13 - offer her father 3 pigs and a sheep to buy her. Then take woman to hut for copulation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Katydid4841 said:


> Oh, and between the two of us my husband has worked 3 weeks this year to my 60 hours a week. But I'm the leach, right? Your assumptions betray your ignorance. And I'll continue to support him emotionally and mentally and give him TONS of affection. All I ask is for his patience. Thanks for asking.


Well then if he's not working and you're not having sex, it's not just you. Neither of you is contributing, but that includes you... Mem is still correct, despite assumptions...

Anyhow, is he disabled? If my husband never worked out of pure laziness, then I wouldn't want to have sex either. Laziness is a turn off for most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

loveisforever said:


> Last resort: Persistent Courting Technique
> 
> This is for a guy with nice-guy syndrome who is denied sex by his wife frequently. The underlying reason is:
> 1) Power struggle and man-women role reversal: Nice guy listens to wife too much, cater to wife too much. Now, wife is in power. When wife in power, less sex for her man. When man in power, more sex for his wife.
> ...


There is a translation issue or a cultural one here...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Katydid4841 said:


> I know this is hard for men to understand,


It's not hard to understand at all. What is hard to understand is being lashed to someone you don't like for almost the sole pleasure of making both of you angry and miserable. My wife is like that. Has less than zero interest in any intimacy at all, less than zero interest in having a normal stable happy marriage at all. But devotes her entire day to grumbling and complaining that I and the whole world is arrayed against her personally to persecute her. 

It's patronizing, to me at least to hear a wife complain that the stars aren't in perfect alignment and her mate is a caveman, a bully or worse for insisting they both ignore that temporarily. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is ideal. That's why they're called ideals. But the all or nothing stance, my way or the highway - well ok then, that was your offer - no thanks. Don't be furious when you offer up someone a choice like that and they don't go for it. It's like the New Hampshire license plate "Live Free or Die". Fair enough, pick one but don't be disappointed with your choice.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Katydid4841 said:


> Oh, and between the two of us my husband has worked 3 weeks this year to my 60 hours a week. But I'm the leach, right? Your assumptions betray your ignorance. And I'll continue to support him emotionally and mentally and give him TONS of affection. All I ask is for his patience. Thanks for asking.


Men marry for regular sex, women marry for provision and protection. When that doesn't happen, people get unhappy.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> we haven't had sex since early August. She seems to be her happiest when I don't try to make a move... I've been the only one working for quite a while, working 1 1/2 jobs.


Your kid is 2. Your wife is a SAHM. You're working 60 hours. What are your hours? Does your wife have a car? Does she have a cell phone? Does she spend time on the computer? facebook?

You need to get in top shape, which you said in your other thread you are not. You also need to download and read two books today, Married Man Sex Life Primer and No More Mr. Nice Guy.

How often do other women approach you?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Several things to respond to:

1) The persistent approach thing is garbage. It started out ok but the last half is all wrong.

2) Joe, I don't recall if it was brought up in your earlier threads. Is there any chance of child sex abuse, sexual assault, mother with borderline personality disorder, an alcoholic parent, or any other significant trauma in your wife's history? Her behavior is strikingly similar to my wife's and a number of other wives which I am aware of who were sexually abused as a child or assaulted as a teen. Your wife does not have a low sex drive, she has an aversion to intimacy, both sexual and emotion. I believe whatever the root cause is, she does not understand normal sexuality.

3) You cannot Nice her into giving you sex. You cannot force her into giving you sex by being "persistent". You cannot do enough chores or give her enough compliments to get her to give you sex.

You can try working on your sex rank via Married Man's Sex Life. I think you should also read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and visit the forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin . Also read the book "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty".

Your wife is not going to change until she is shocked into it. You are not going to be able to implement any changes until you are able to truly believe that divorce is an option for you.

You likely have a good dose of sexual toxic shame. You have every right to a normal healthy sex life. If your wife is not willing to make a very strong effort to get your marriage on track, she is not participating in the marriage. She is using you as a money provider and a home improvement handiman. She is not being a wife, she is being a master and abuser.

One tactic which you could try is to give her the straight talk. "Honey, I love you. I value being married to you. I value the family. I want us to have a happy and fulfilling marriage. However you are not willing to engage in a normal married sexual relationship. I am a sexual being just like every other person on the planet, and I intend to have a full and normal sex life. I prefer it to be with you." STFU and go do something fun away from her for a while.

My wife had a very twisted view of sexuality. Though she presented as a normal sexually active young adult when I met her in college, things changed dramatically after the wedding. Then after the first child was born things changed even more drastically. As she has revealed her thoughts and beliefs to me now 20+ years later, she never understood sexuality in a healthy way. She saw sex as a tool of manipulation and power to be wielded by females. She believed a man's need for sex is a purely physiological one to "spurt it out". She did not understand the emotional aspect for a man, nor did she understand the central function of intimacy in a marriage.

Years and decades of me trying to figure out the root cause of the sexless marriage was wasted time. Yes knowing the cause can be helpful if you find the correct answer quickly. But ultimately it is her duty to bring herself fully and healthily to your marriage. Stop making excuses for her, and stop trying to figure out the root cause. Insist on your right to a normal fulfilling relationship with your wife, and insist she participate fully in the process of moving towards that goal.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Katydid4841 said:


> Oh, and between the two of us my husband has worked 3 weeks this year to my 60 hours a week. But I'm the leach, right? Your assumptions betray your ignorance. And I'll continue to support him emotionally and mentally and give him TONS of affection. All I ask is for his patience. Thanks for asking.


Then start a new thread. Unfortunately, you are projecting your very real issues on the OP here, where the opposite is the case. 

You also (perhaps through your anger) fundementally misunderstand a man's need for sex with his wife. it is not some love of her holes, as you so elequently put it. It is about bonding with the women he loves. 

As far as not having sex with your husband just to make him happy becuase you don't want to, that is fine as long as it is clear stated (no passive aggressive telling him everything is fine while acting like it is not) and that it applies to all actions in the marriage. To do otherwise is not fair.


----------



## Interlocutor (Dec 29, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> it is not some love of her holes, as you so elequently put it. It is about bonding with the women he loves.


"All my wife ever wants to do its talk to me! Even when I'm not in the mood! I work sixty hours a week and raise a son and you know I get tired!!! My wife just wants to use me like a pair of ears that she loves, but I'm a person not just a pair of ears to abuse!!! She needs to stop trying to talk to me so much! Doesn't she care how I feel???"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## grim4481 (Nov 12, 2012)

Sounds to me like you need to talk to her and find out what is really going on. She probably feels overwhelmed, ugly, and possibly even depressed. When was the last time you engaged in a deep conversation with her? When a women with stains from sex it is usually because of an emotional issue.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Inter,
I think it is revolting that she is simply using you as a pair of holes to use whenever she has a "need". 






Interlocutor said:


> "All my wife ever wants to do its talk to me! Even when I'm not in the mood! I work sixty hours a week and raise a son and you know I get tired!!! My wife just wants to use me like a pair of ears that she loves, but I'm a person not just a pair of ears to abuse!!! She needs to stop trying to talk to me so much! Doesn't she care how I feel???"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

FoolMeOnce said:


> I had a thyroid problem brought on by pregnancy that went undiagnosed for three years, when I finally figured it out myself thanks to typing some symptoms into Google. I had even told my gynecologist I was concerned about no sex drive. She told me I had more pressing issues and was tired because of new baby and breast feeding. Have your wife get some blood tests. My poor husband! I had absolutely no desire whatsoever for three years, and all I wanted was some sleep.


So typical that they missed that, but for me even when i've been unwell with my thyroid it has not affected my sex drive, when i stop breasting feeding i have a period of hyper sexual activity, it drove me crazy at the time, it has calmed now, but my sex drive is still high.

When orgasming a woman will let down her milk at the same time because oxytocin is released, expect to drink or get wet.


----------



## loveisforever (Jun 21, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Whoever wrote that forgot step 13 - offer her father 3 pigs and a sheep to buy her. Then take woman to hut for copulation!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In a sexless marriage, if the husband has tried all he could for a long time, he should set up a break point for the marriage. Deep down, your wife will feel if you are sex desirable, or not. Action speak louder than language. If husband finally forces the sex issue by a direct confrontation, it will has the effect of a wake up call: Either you love your husband sexually, or not. There are no meaning to continue an unhappy, sexless marriage.

You can use various ways for the confrontation. It should be persistent enough to the point that your wife decline you sex knowing marriage is over, or she accepts you for the sake of your marriage. Either way, both of you should have a serious look at the sex issue. Sex should not be dismissed by the wife lightly without any real consequence. The marriage itself should be on the line.

I just described a way for the confrontation and gave it a name Persistent Courting Technique. Frankly, I felt discomfort in writing these and I was nervous on how people perceive it. Sex against will is always wrong. That is rape. But persistent courting is not rape. It is a showdown on the sex issue. Some people felt offend by it as they imagine themselves in this ugly situation. For any sex confrontation, it will be discomfort and intense. This is just "live free or die". Have a consensual sex and let the marriage come to life, or not. Do not fix un-fixables and always bump your head on the wall. How many time of bleeding will you tolerate before call it an end?

We are here to offer our opinions and suggestions. I offer this last-resort advice not because I like it, but because I want to be honest and offer a different approach. I do not force anybody to follow it, just a view from a different angle. I was very disappointed by the feed back I got here. I know people feel differently. But please do not attack other posters just because you do not like their opinion. If you call others garbage, your are what you called. When you attack other person madly, you usually do not realize how mad you are. This forum should not have a place for you.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lyris,
I agree. The stronger partner always has to be very careful in all matters physical. 

Edge and aggression can make for intense passion, but you have to really know what you are doing. 



Lyris said:


> Well, that made me feel sick. If my husband started _following me around the house_ hassling me for sex when I didn't feel like it, I'd invite him to follow me outside and then I'd lock all the doors.
> 
> Oh, and I add my support to the breastfeeding/low libido being a bs excuse. Maybe if she was exclusively breastfeeding a newborn, but a two year old? No. I've been breastfeeding continually for the past six years, and it never affected my libido. At this stage, the only hormone that would be different from a non-breastfeeding woman is prolactin. Her oxytocin may be raised too, during a feed, but neither of those should make a difference, if she doesn't want them to.


----------



## FoolMeOnce (Oct 16, 2012)

cloudwithleggs said:


> So typical that they missed that, but for me even when i've been unwell with my thyroid it has not affected my sex drive, when i stop breasting feeding i have a period of hyper sexual activity, it drove me crazy at the time, it has calmed now, but my sex drive is still high.


HYPERthyroidism is associated with high sex drive, and it's what I had until my thyroid burned out resulting in HYPOthyroidism in which low libido is a symptom.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Katydid4841 said:


> I know this is hard for men to understand, but for a man to go without sex the consequence is that he feels unloved, right? To a woman, if we force ourselves to have sex without being into it just to make our men happy, we feel disgusted, used, shamed, guilted, compromised, viiolated...and by our HUSBAND no less, the one man we thought would NEVER make us feel objectified. So forgive me, but your **** might not be quite as important as her moral integrity. And For the dude with the "Persistent Courting Technique", I hope that works out real well for you. I hope your wife does call the police because there are laws against emotional and sexual abuse in a marriage.


I'm not asking her to force herself to have sex with me or undermine her moral integrity. I'm trying to initiate a dialogue, where we as partners, can work together to bring back physical/emotional intimacy into our lives. However, the dialogue stops and she tells me that she just can't. If it's a physical or emotional issues, perhaps there are solutions to help her WANT to be intimate with her husband, the same husband who helped her have a child she wanted. 

Also, I'm assuming that my "****" refers to my penis. Perhaps you are right that it is not as important as her moral integrity. However, why is sex and intimacy being reduced to biological mechanisms such as my ****? My W reduces sex to that, too.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Well, my W had just went to the doctor and it was discovered that her vitamin D was low. She was prescribed to take vitamin D supplements. I am hoping that this helps in some way. At least it is one more thing to rule out. 

Recently, she was saying that she feels like she is only a pair of breasts for the baby and a vagina for me. I asked how she could feel so objectified by me when I attend to her emotional needs, work my ass off for her, and have stopped making my infrequent advances. She said that she doesn't know, but she just does.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Well, my W had just went to the doctor and it was discovered that her vitamin D was low. She was prescribed to take vitamin D supplements. I am hoping that this helps in some way. At least it is one more thing to rule out.
> 
> Recently, she was saying that she feels like she is only a pair of breasts for the baby and a vagina for me. I asked how she could feel so objectified by me when I attend to her emotional needs, work my ass off for her, and have stopped making my infrequent advances. She said that she doesn't know, but she just does.


Out of curiousity, have you ever asked her if you're just a wallet to her? Because I'd imagine at times you feel that way.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Out of curiousity, have you ever asked her if you're just a wallet to her? Because I'd imagine at times you feel that way.


I haven't asked her, but have told her that I feel like a wallet and an extra pair of hands, particularly when I'm take my child out so my W can sleep in on the weekends. After that she was trying to be more affectionate (e.g., hugs here and there), but I know she's more of a receiver than a giver.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Have you considered just stopping doing the extras? I don't mean not take part in your kids life, and helping out there, but instead of being the "extra pair of hands" just tell her that you've had a long week at work and you'd like to sleep in as well? Maybe tell her you get to sleep in on Sunday and she does on Saturday, or something? And have her do her fair share around the house as well?

It's great to be supportive, but don't let her have it all.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I agree, Kingsfan. I've declined to run errands, especially after a long work day. At first, she was upset, but I reminded her I can only do so much before diminishing returns- that and I think she got the message when my MIL told me i looked like hell...


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Have you considered leaving or a seperation?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe, 
The only way to create empathy here is to deprive your wife of something she really wants, let her get very upset and then calmly say: it seems like all you want from me is..... 

Money works best. Sorry but it does. Money is like sex. Plentiful it is 10 percent of the relationship and in short supply it quickly becomes 90 percent of the relationship.

Once you get empathy you don't demand a lot of sex, instead you press her to teach you how to make sex fun for her. If she insists that it is fun for her then shrug and say you are glad she will be enjoying the new schedule.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> The only way to create empathy here is to deprive your wife of something she really wants, let her get very upset and then calmly say: it seems like all you want from me is.....
> 
> Money works best. Sorry but it does. Money is like sex. Plentiful it is 10 percent of the relationship and in short supply it quickly becomes 90 percent of the relationship.


This. Plus you have to have the courage to actually tell her that her deprioritizing you has led to you deprioritizing her. She has to own that these are the consequences of HER actions.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes

What does not work is: I am angry and don't want to do..... 

What works is: I don't feel the desire to do that for you.. .. And then go do something for yourself. But none of that will matter unless you cut back on time and acts of service as well. Time acts of service and money. 

I don't feel the desire to do that. 

You likely will get the 'do you love me' that question. 

You can always say: It feels like I am nothing but a general purpose servant and wallet for you and I don't like that. 

Not angry - not yelling - not upset - just cold. 

She will cry. Leave the room. If you rescue her from consequence you will be celibate for the rest of your marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Just adding my agreement with MEM and WorkingOnMe. 

Focus on yourself. Take care of some of your needs because right now she is not all that interested in the job. But eb clear, in a controlled way, what you are doing and why. No passive aggressive "everything is fine dear but act like a @$$". Make it absolutely clear why you are doing what you are doing.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Have you considered leaving or a seperation?


I haven't considered leaving, but I think I'm at a point where I need to strongly consider each option.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Just adding my agreement with MEM and WorkingOnMe.
> 
> Focus on yourself. Take care of some of your needs because right now she is not all that interested in the job. But eb clear, in a controlled way, what you are doing and why. No passive aggressive "everything is fine dear but act like a @$$". Make it absolutely clear why you are doing what you are doing.


I think I might start by taking time to work out. I miss being active in competitive sports like basketball.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> She will cry. Leave the room. If you rescue her from consequence you will be celibate for the rest of your marriage.


This is where I have stumbled before, though I recognize it is a crucial part.


----------



## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

The thing I dont see in this thread is the desire and sincerity aspects of sex. I dont want my wife to just 'submit to sex' I want her to want the intimacy and sex.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You missed my post.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

HDsocal said:


> The thing I dont see in this thread is the desire and sincerity aspects of sex. I dont want my wife to just 'submit to sex' I want her to want the intimacy and sex.


I don't want her to just "submit" either. I've wanted to have dialogue and affection, but she has tended to shoot those both down. 

On another note, I've downloaded the MMSLP by Athol. There'll be more updates on that process.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> You missed my post.


Which one?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe, 
I was directing that comment about missing my post at HDSocal not you, sorry for being cryptic.

_________________





JoeHenderson said:


> Which one?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> I was directing that comment about missing my post at HDSocal not you, sorry for being cryptic.
> 
> _________________


No problem, just wanted to make sure.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe, 
There is a finite amount of emotional space between two people. 

When one of them consumes all that space with approval seeking behavior, there is literally no room, no space for the other to reciprocate. 

Ask yourself a question: after subtracting all the stuff your wife has to do anyway, clean, cook, laundry (tiny bit more effort there), shop, etc. 
What does she do JUST TO PLEASE YOU? 

Of that list what do you have to pressure her for, what do you get easy by asking and what does she volunteer to do? 

How do you guys manage your money? 

Do you ever expect her to go back to work? Have you had that conversation? 

Are you agreeable to adding more kids to a sexless marriage? Does she know that?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> There is a finite amount of emotional space between two people.
> 
> When one of them consumes all that space with approval seeking behavior, there is literally no room, no space for the other to reciprocate.
> ...


I'm not on board for having more kids because she already says she's overwhelmed and her family and i put in a lot of effort to support her such as taking care of baby so she can nap, running errands, etc. 

also i want us to be more financially secure because we're barely getting by with my full-time and part-time job. that and i suspect it would be the complete end of our sex life if it isn't already. she knows i want to wait, but i need to communicate the sexless part, too.


----------



## Elk87 (Oct 8, 2012)

HDsocal said:


> The thing I dont see in this thread is the desire and sincerity aspects of sex. I dont want my wife to just 'submit to sex' I want her to want the intimacy and sex.


This happened to me & it sucked. She felt like my message to her was "more sex," when it should have been "more AND quality!" So when it increased to 3 - 4 times per month (yes, that was an increase), and then I made a ploy for it to be more adventurous, she acted like she didn't understand the importance in that aspect. To clarify, "more adventurous" didn't mean sex in a public place or anything. Just more foreplay, different positions, lights ON for crying out loud! She couldn't understand that her just submitting did very little for my needs. If I just needed to get my rocks off quickly & efficiently, well I don't need a wife for that.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Tell her you have decided to get a vasectomy. 

Wait until she asks for something ridiculous / high maintenance. And then just say "given how overwhelmed you are with one child, we are going to stop here, I am going to get a vasectomy. 




JoeHenderson said:


> I'm not on board for having more kids because she already says she's overwhelmed and her family and i put in a lot of effort to support her such as taking care of baby so she can nap, running errands, etc.
> 
> also i want us to be more financially secure because we're barely getting by with my full-time and part-time job. that and i suspect it would be the complete end of our sex life if it isn't already. she knows i want to wait, but i need to communicate the sexless part, too.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

I hear you, MEM. I cannot have another child under these conditions.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I admire your restraint... it's only been 2 weeks since D-day for me and already I'm so horny right now I feel like drilling a hole in the wall and ramming it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
You need to grasp something - almost all of you being in this terrible spot has to do with the speed with which you "give in" when you two have conflict. 

My advice is to bring this up and let her respond. And then don't discuss it further for a while. Tell her you don't want to discuss it. 

And this can't be about sex, it must be about her being a good wife. She has totally deprioritized you. That needs to completely change and change for a long time if you want a prayer of improvement. 

Just to be clear, if she is not willing to even make an attempt to improve without you agreeing to not doing a vasectomy - then she is telling you that once she DOES have her last child - you are permanently baked in terms of her making an effort to please you. 




JoeHenderson said:


> I hear you, MEM. I cannot have another child under these conditions.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
What have you done to deprioritize your wife? 

What have you done to "hold your ground in a calm way when she has gotten mad at you for not giving her the royal servant act"




JoeHenderson said:


> I hear you, MEM. I cannot have another child under these conditions.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Well, my W had just went to the doctor and it was discovered that her vitamin D was low. She was prescribed to take vitamin D supplements. I am hoping that this helps in some way. At least it is one more thing to rule out.
> 
> Recently, she was saying that she feels like she is only a pair of breasts for the baby and a vagina for me. I asked how she could feel so objectified by me when I attend to her emotional needs, work my ass off for her, and have stopped making my infrequent advances. She said that she doesn't know, but she just does.


OP, I think there's more going on here than your W is telling you (eg post-natal depression, which can go on for a few years if not dealt with), and I'm wondering if MC wouldn't be a possibility?

When I hear stories like this, I'm amazed and saddened why some women fail to appreciate how wonderful it is to be desired by a good and loving spouse.

This really does need sorting out sooner rather than later, OP.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

C, 
I will try and walk softly here since I have no concept of what post natal depression is like. I will say this though:
- this started right after she got pregnant 
- she seems to have the energy and desire to do what she wants 
- in general seems primarily like a selfishness and respect issue


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> What have you done to deprioritize your wife?
> 
> What have you done to "hold your ground in a calm way when she has gotten mad at you for not giving her the royal servant act"


Slowly declining certain tasks like making dinner after a long work day and knowing she had a midday nap. I know it's not much but a start. Also I've toned down the compliments, touch, and I don't initiate "I love yous."


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> True, but she doesn't see it as a problem on her part. The problem is i have a sex drive. Even when I would make a move biweekly, i was labeled an uncontrollable horndog.


Isn't that the one that is so insulting because you know onlybannidiot would believe that! I've had that before and absolutely resent the comment - what is really maddening is the excuse you mention that all women for theough it. I've heard citing of this friend and that friend are just the same as if that makes it ok! Sorry pal you're dealing with this too it's horrible and abusive!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## oddball (Sep 5, 2012)

Joe, your wife sounds like a princess.
She has one two year old, does not work outside the home, has family who help her so she can nap, has a husband who takes the baby out on weekends so she can sleep in.....

Dude, seriously this is not the way a wife behaves. Having a baby is a lot of work sure, but millions of woman do it, work outside the home, and have regular sex with their husbands.

Mems advise is spot on methinks.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
The only way this approach will be effective is if your "mindset" changes. You are walking on eggshells afraid that somehow your wife will get angry and disapprove of what you are doing. 

You need to get past that. You need to get to the point where in your heart you BELIEVE DEEP DOWN that you deserve to be shown love and respect. 

The approach you use is absolutely critical. 
Tone:
Your tone has to be friendly and polite when you speak with her. This is a must. Not tense, angry, sullen or sad. 

Content: 
TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE: 
1. You should absolutely not bring UP the subject of your feelings. If she ASKS what is wrong, you can tell her nothing is wrong. If she pushes you can mention that you have noticed the loss of any desire/motivation to please her. Just make that statement. If she actually asks you why - just laugh. I mean it. Honestly Joe - she knows exactly why. If you ENTER INTO a real conversation about how you feel abandoned and unloved two things will happen:
- Right or wrong she will see that ask weak
- It will come across as a sympathy play for her to be nice to you, to love you more
- It will enable her to more easily continue to manipulate you 

2. Be home less
Work more: Start coming home later from work. If you have a salaried job, do more work and work until later at night. Do not play any games about your location though. Don't make her think/worry you are having an affair. If she calls, take her call. Just tell her 

Work out more




JoeHenderson said:


> Slowly declining certain tasks like making dinner after a long work day and knowing she had a midday nap. I know it's not much but a start. Also I've toned down the compliments, touch, and I don't initiate "I love yous."


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

As a dad, I tend to shy away from buying a lot for myself. Several times, my wife has offered me an iPad but I can think of much better uses for the money.

Which is a long way of saying that you should start to spend some of your money on YOU. Are you a fisherman? Are you a golfer? There are LOADS of weekend excursions from stunt driving to parachuting to tactical SWAT shooting.

So learn something new and manly ALONE. Arrange the time off from work well in advance and than a week in advance TELL HER you are going. You are stressed. I can see it in your writing. You need a break. She does nothing. She does not need a break.

Do NOT imply any infidelity and allay any of her fears on that point. You are going out. Bye.

There are a lot of facinating people out there. Make some friends doing it.

If you are not going to enjoy a sex life, which, let's face it, is a very small but significant amount of time, there is no reason you can't focus on OTHER enjoyable things. Things YOU enjoy. So when she says she wants to also do X Y and Z...sorry. You are replacing sex. She doesn't want sex and so there is no need for any replacement for her.


----------



## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

cloudwithleggs said:


> So typical that they missed that, but for me even when i've been unwell with my thyroid it has not affected my sex drive, when i stop breasting feeding i have a period of hyper sexual activity, it drove me crazy at the time, it has calmed now, but my sex drive is still high.
> 
> When orgasming a woman will let down her milk at the same time because oxytocin is released, expect to drink or get wet.


LOL, that's a funny way to put it. But it doesn't require orgasm... From the first child on, a good kiss and some snuggling and touching and the fountains started and didn't quit until after we were done. 

I admit, I didn't drink it, but the new size, firmness and the squirting was one hell of a turn-on, and she was certainly up for it, too.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> OP, I think there's more going on here than your W is telling you (eg post-natal depression, which can go on for a few years if not dealt with), and I'm wondering if MC wouldn't be a possibility?
> 
> When I hear stories like this, I'm amazed and saddened why some women fail to appreciate how wonderful it is to be desired by a good and loving spouse.
> 
> This really does need sorting out sooner rather than later, OP.


She denies postpartum depression. He sex drive does come and go though. 

MC would be good, but our insurance and finances make it difficult to see someone for MC, though I really want it. 

I think a lot of it goes back to her priorities. She seems to prioritize people/animals in her life she views as meek. First, it was our cat, then our puppy, her younger brother (who is now 30 but VERY dependent), and now our child. I've gotten used to working my butt off and being emotionally supportive, encouraging, empathic, romantic, etc just for some attention. That's going to change now, though because it's obviously not working. I've started reading Married Man's Sex Life Primer and trying to implement feedback by our fellow members.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

oldgeezer said:


> LOL, that's a funny way to put it. But it doesn't require orgasm... From the first child on, a good kiss and some snuggling and touching and the fountains started and didn't quit until after we were done.
> 
> I admit, I didn't drink it, but the new size, firmness and the squirting was one hell of a turn-on, and she was certainly up for it, too.


My W says it's uncomfortable for her when I turn her on because of the milk letdown, so she usually tells me to STOP.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> As a dad, I tend to shy away from buying a lot for myself. Several times, my wife has offered me an iPad but I can think of much better uses for the money.
> 
> Which is a long way of saying that you should start to spend some of your money on YOU. Are you a fisherman? Are you a golfer? There are LOADS of weekend excursions from stunt driving to parachuting to tactical SWAT shooting.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I've been thinking of having more "me" time as well. I'm going to start by exercising again. It's good for my health and mood. If she objects to me improving my health, that's just f'd up.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Joe,
> The only way this approach will be effective is if your "mindset" changes. You are walking on eggshells afraid that somehow your wife will get angry and disapprove of what you are doing.
> 
> You need to get past that. You need to get to the point where in your heart you BELIEVE DEEP DOWN that you deserve to be shown love and respect.
> ...


Thanks for the feedback. I think the emotions part is especially helpful as it is such a huge piece of the puzzle. She asks me how I feel, twists my words and reality around, and somehow i end up feeling guilty and selfish. it's like magic!


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> She denies postpartum depression. He sex drive does come and go though.
> 
> MC would be good, but our insurance and finances make it difficult to see someone for MC, though I really want it.
> 
> I think a lot of it goes back to her priorities. She seems to prioritize people/animals in her life she views as meek. First, it was our cat, then our puppy, her younger brother (who is now 30 but VERY dependent), and now our child. I've gotten used to working my butt off and being emotionally supportive, encouraging, empathic, romantic, etc just for some attention. That's going to change now, though because it's obviously not working. I've started reading Married Man's Sex Life Primer and trying to implement feedback by our fellow members.


I wonder if her drive is perhaps being affected by the fact that she's breastfeeding? This could _possibly_ (but obviously not always) have an effect on a woman's libido - be it physical or purely psychological.

All that aside, though, as a husband you should always feel that you are your wife's first priority (even though, jointly, you need to put your child's needs first), and your wife needs to be made aware that you are feeling neglected.

I hope the MMSLP helps, OP.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> I wonder if her drive is perhaps being affected by the fact that she's breastfeeding? This could _possibly_ (but obviously not always) have an effect on a woman's libido - be it physical or purely psychological.
> 
> All that aside, though, as a husband you should always feel that you are your wife's first priority (even though, jointly, you need to put your child's needs first), and your wife needs to be made aware that you are feeling neglected.
> 
> I hope the MMSLP helps, OP.


She says that it is affecting her drive and I recognize that as valid. However, what has bothered me most is that she has told me to basically deal with no sex rather than join me in trying to improve our sex life.

I have made her aware of my feeling neglected, but has told me that she wished i never told her that because it makes her feel bad...


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> She says that it is affecting her drive and I recognize that as valid. However, what has bothered me most is that she has told me to basically deal with no sex rather than join me in trying to improve our sex life.
> 
> I have made her aware of my feeling neglected, but has told me that she wished i never told her that because it makes her feel bad...


That should be all the information you need right there to see where she is coming from. It's like her saying she's depressed and you telling her you wish she hadn't told you because it makes you feel bad. You'd sound like an A-hole then, and guess what? She's being an a-hole right now to you.

It's clear by that statement that what you're FEELING means little to her, as to her her feelings trump yours. Stop playing on an emotional level, you're only playing with yourself (figuratively and I'd assume literally).

Play on the physical level. Stop doing things for her. In another post from today you said "I've gotten used to working my butt off and being emotionally supportive, encouraging, empathic, romantic, etc just for some attention." You also said that was going to change, so make sure it does. It's ok to be supportive, but start doing things that make you happy and this situation clearly is not making you happy. And how could it when your own wife wishes you didn't burden her with your own feelings because she feels bad rather than actually try to help you out.

Start doing things that are away from her as well. Go golfing, go to the gym, etc. If you can't afford it, do stuff that takes you out of the house or away from her, such as jogging, visiting friends, etc. Not everything costs money, or costs a lot of money, so find lower cost things to get away from her. If you can't find things away from the house, do things in the house away from her, whether that's a craft like woodworking or something completely different like online gaming. Find something and devote some time towards it. If her needs bump into the time you've set aside for that, tell her that you can't help her right now (unless of course it's a big need that can't wait) because you are doing your thing.

Start viewing her demands/requests as **** tests and calling her on them. If she needs a hand with her brother for example, let her deal with it. Be honest with her, if you don't feel like doing something, don't do it. If she can do it herself, tell her to do it herself. You don't have to be an *******, just point out she's a big girl, she can handle it.

At the same time as you're doing all this, have one last sex talk. Tell her up front this is the last sex talk and you don't need her to respond, just listen. Tell her it's the last sex talk because you're tired of talking about this issue and you know she's tired of hearing about it. Then tell her that you are starting to become very emotionally detacted from this marriage and that sex is a big reason why. Tell her that there could be some serious consequences if things continue to progress this way and that you don't want those things but that if she won't try and help fix the problem, you can't save this relationship on your own. Tell her you are still committed to her and the relationship, but this issue is causing you pain and you don't know how much longer you can keep this going without her help. Then tell her that from now on the ball is in her court as you've tried a lot of things and nothing seems to be working, so you're tired of trying. Point out the things you've tried if she says you haven't done much, and point out that most couples do not go through sexual droughts like you are. Print off material proof if you want. Just don't argue, this is a final talk.

You'll know pretty quickly whether she wants to work on this, or is either already checked out of the marriage or is at least thinking you're bluffing.

Be ready to show you're not bluffing. If you're not ready to do that, then do bother even talking to her about this issue. It sounds like the only threat you have is a possible divorce.

I wish you luck Joe, you sound like a nice guy and you deserve the best. Rest assured there are other women out there who are great people and willing to give you what you want/need as well.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> She says that it is affecting her drive and I recognize that as valid. However, what has bothered me most is that she has told me to basically deal with no sex rather than join me in trying to improve our sex life.
> 
> I have made her aware of my feeling neglected, but has told me that she wished i never told her that because it makes her feel bad...




I wouldn't worry about your W feeling bad about what you told her, because this needed to be said. How, exactly, does she expect you to "deal with no sex?" I find that pretty dismissive...

For how much longer will your W be breastfeeding? I seem to recall your child is around 2 years of age?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry about your W feeling bad about what you told her, because this needed to be said. How, exactly, does she expect you to "deal with no sex?" I find that pretty dismissive...
> ...


My child is about 21 months and she hopes to nurse until 2 years. She nurses him about 3 times per day. 

She has basically expected that I just deal with it. One time, she was trying to be nice and told me that I should find a forum where guys help support each other stay sexless while their spouses breastfeed their child because it is so normal.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

There is some good info you could give your wife explaining how sexlessness affects you. Search on "sex sstarved marriage".

I think you would get a lot out of the book No More Mr Nice Guy. Also good support on the forums at nomoremrniceguy.com . You are using covert contracts to get sex. Nmmng forums can help you here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Did you ask her how she knows it's normal? I'd like to know what study she's been reading that proved that the majority of men don't have sex with their wives for two years while she is breastfeeding their child.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> My child is about 21 months and she hopes to nurse until 2 years. She nurses him about 3 times per day.
> 
> She has basically expected that I just deal with it. One time, she was trying to be nice and told me that I should find a forum where guys help support each other stay sexless while their spouses breastfeed their child because it is so normal.


I certainly recognize all the benefits of breastfeeding a child, but I can't imagine electing to breastfeed a child until the age of 2 _if I knew that it was harming my relationship with my H._ 

I don't believe that it's 'normal' to expect a spouse to remain sexless for 2 years after the birth of a child. If breastfeeding affects your W to this extent, she might want to reconsider the length of time she intends doing it...

Your W might do well to heed these words:-
_
"A mother who hovers over her little prince or princess too long leaves the former king of the castle feeling increasingly powerless, and likelier to seek a queen on the side."_


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> My child is about 21 months and she hopes to nurse until 2 years. She nurses him about 3 times per day.
> 
> She has basically expected that I just deal with it. One time, she was trying to be nice and told me that I should find a forum where guys help support each other stay sexless while their spouses breastfeed their child because it is so normal.


From another thread, I posted the following:



> For me, it took “gradual epiphany” for it to truly work (yes – I know that may not make sense, but it was sudden understanding that took me a couple of days to truly understand the ramifications of and put into words). My epiphany was that I can only control myself. Doing all this stuff for my wife was never going to work – it might in the short run, but it was too difficult to do and frankly too dishonest. The only way for me to be happy was to get myself to a place where I am happy with myself and my actions. My wife can’t make me happy, but she does add to it. I need to get myself to that place. To me, that means finding and doing things I have passion for, making sure that my wishes and needs are not always last (and sometimes are first), and ensuring that my boundaries are both reasonable and enforced. That also translated into me recognizing that not being married to my wife would not kill me. Make no mistake, I want our marriage to last, and for us to grow old together. That is the choice I have made and hope to continue it. But I also realize that I could live through it and would figure out a way to be happy.
> This realization did wonders for me and my marriage.


I really think you need this. You need to get yourself to a place where you are happy, regardless of your wife. Work on that.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Did you ask her how she knows it's normal? I'd like to know what study she's been reading that proved that the majority of men don't have sex with their wives for two years while she is breastfeeding their child.


Yes, she showed me an article (maybe on yahoo?) with a comments section where breastfeeding women complained about their SOs trying to touch them. In the article it said for women to stand their ground on sex. The women in the comments section made their hubbies seem like A-holes. This seemed to really enable her thinking. When I showed her actual empirical articles on resuming sex after baby (about 85% resumed sex w/in 2 months if i recall correctly), she denied its validity... in her mind yahoo beats empiricism.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Yes, she showed me an article (maybe on yahoo?) with a comments section where breastfeeding women complained about their SOs trying to touch them. In the article it said for women to stand their ground on sex. The women in the comments section made their hubbies seem like A-holes. This seemed to really enable her thinking. When I showed her actual empirical articles on resuming sex after baby (about 85% resumed sex w/in 2 months if i recall correctly), she denied its validity... in her mind yahoo beats empiricism.


So 'comments' on a yahoo page beat researched data?

I think you have a much steep climb with your wife than I previously thought. She may need a 101 refresher in common knowledge first.

That's just like arguing with a wall. Wow.


----------



## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

<~~~~ Breastfeeding mom. Baby is 5 months old. Has sex 3 - 4 times a week. If anything, I want it more lately now than before! 

Is it possible that she's using the baby/breastfeeding as a way of keeping her distance?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> From another thread, I posted the following:
> 
> 
> 
> I really think you need this. You need to get yourself to a place where you are happy, regardless of your wife. Work on that.


Thanks, Tall. I have been feeling unhappy in general. But I can do something about that. I'm going for a run today.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joel, 
This isn't even about putting the child first. It is about putting you last. 

I don't know any men who would tolerate 2 years of a sahm who expects them to just sukk it up and be celibate. That is phase 1 in teaching you that you don't matter.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

TCSRedhead said:


> <~~~~ Breastfeeding mom. Baby is 5 months old. Has sex 3 - 4 times a week. If anything, I want it more lately now than before!
> 
> Is it possible that she's using the baby/breastfeeding as a way of keeping her distance?


It's very possible. I understand the hormones can mess with your drive, such as yours being stronger and hers being less. however, i don't think that it means that it's ok that she just shuts it down. there have been times when her mood led to dry spells in sex as well. her therapist told her that having sex could improve her mood, but she would want me to stay away. so yes, it leads me to believe that it runs deeper than breastfeeding. this is a personality thing. 

someone made the comment that she sounds like a princess. that's probably accurate. she can tantrum or guilt her parents into doing things for her still. i've heard from her family that this is something she grew up with. i had made attempts to change this dynamic b/n her and i, as i had previously been more assertive in our relationship. that's when she discovered that my achille's heel is giving into guilt trips and emotional roller coasters. 

as i've started reading MMSLP, i've noticed such strong resemblances between the examples given and my marriage. i need to get back to where i used to be with her: assertive and confident.


----------



## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Also, I like boobies as much as the next guy. But didn't play with them much during the breastfeeding years. Didn't preclude us from getting it on, though. 

Sounds like she's using this as a smokescreen.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> It's very possible. I understand the hormones can mess with your drive, such as yours being stronger and hers being less. however, i don't think that it means that it's ok that she just shuts it down. there have been times when her mood led to dry spells in sex as well. her therapist told her that having sex could improve her mood, but she would want me to stay away. so yes, it leads me to believe that it runs deeper than breastfeeding. this is a personality thing.
> 
> someone made the comment that she sounds like a princess. that's probably accurate. she can tantrum or guilt her parents into doing things for her still. i've heard from her family that this is something she grew up with. i had made attempts to change this dynamic b/n her and i, as i had previously been more assertive in our relationship. that's when she discovered that my achille's heel is giving into guilt trips and emotional roller coasters.
> 
> as i've started reading MMSLP, i've noticed such strong resemblances between the examples given and my marriage. i need to get back to where i used to be with her: assertive and confident.


Read No More Mr. Nice Guy as well. I suspect that you have some fundemental issues with boundaries and saying no.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Read No More Mr. Nice Guy as well. I suspect that you have some fundemental issues with boundaries and saying no.


your suspicion is correct and i'm working on it.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> My child is about 21 months and she hopes to nurse until 2 years. She nurses him about 3 times per day.
> 
> She has basically expected that I just deal with it. One time, she was trying to be nice and told me that I should find a forum where guys help support each other stay sexless while their spouses breastfeed their child because it is so normal.


:rofl:

Here is what you do. You tell your wife that you DID go to such a forum. Statistically, wives cutting their husbands off for two years breastfeeding is NOT normal.

But everyone suggested that in those cases, you find outside interests. SHE suggested this.

Tell her this too. (Cribbed from Alkon IIRC) Tell her you do not feel a biological imperative to change her oil. You do not have a deep emotional need to do her laundry with yours. Sometimes, you don't feel like picking her up take out

Twenty_Reasons_to_Have_Sex_When_You_Do_Not_Feel_Like_It

Have Sex…Even When You Don't Feel Like It - Modern Reject

So since you both no longer need to do things you don't feel like, go out and do things you DO like.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Here is what you do. You tell your wife that you DID go to such a forum. Statistically, wives cutting their husbands off for two years breastfeeding is NOT normal.
> 
> ...


I've used some of those 20 reasons before lol. If anything, it validates that I need to go running if I'm not getting sex.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hey all, I ran 3 miles after work. W wasn't thrilled but told her that running is good for my health and good for the family. She tried to guilt trip me about how hard it was for her to take care our kid while I was gone for 30 minutes. I didn't apologize.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hey all, I ran 3 miles after work. W wasn't thrilled but told her that running is good for my health and good for the family. She tried to guilt trip me about how hard it was for her to take care our kid while I was gone for 30 minutes. I didn't apologize.


She tried to guilt you about going running? Tell her that it's not only good for your body, but it's good for your mind. Like sex, exercise releases endorphins, and since she's not allowing you any of the former, the latter it will be...

She's a SAHM. You go out to work. You're more than entitled to time to yourself; the same as she is when junior, presumably, takes an afternoon nap...

IMO, small changes like this are going to make your W feel less comfortable with the distance she's creating between you through lack of intimacy.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hey all, I ran 3 miles after work. W wasn't thrilled but told her that running is good for my health and good for the family. She tried to guilt trip me about how hard it was for her to take care our kid while I was gone for 30 minutes. I didn't apologize.


Nor should you have.

Based on your posts you've given her plenty of alone time while you take care of the kids. What's 30 minutes to her?

I suggest if she complains again, you offer to set up a schedule where each night she gets an hour to do whatever she wants while you watch the kids and then you get an hour while she watches them. Or however you want to set it up. For the first while though, be sure your hour comes before her's, just to keep her in check. Then she can't complain about not having time to herself, etc. 

If she says she feels more entitled to the free time than you, point out that you don't belittle her work at home, so she shouldn't belittle the work you put in at your job by suggesting it's not hard enough to earn a break at the end of the day to go running or whatever.


----------



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hey all, I ran 3 miles after work. W wasn't thrilled but told her that running is good for my health and good for the family. She tried to guilt trip me about how hard it was for her to take care our kid while I was gone for 30 minutes. I didn't apologize.


Did she say good for you? I bet not. So here I say to you 'good for you' - if you enjoyed the reaction which hopefully you did, try going to a gym where there are beautiful women left and right. That will really sting. I shouldn't encourage you to do hurtful things in retaliation but look at it this way, you deserve to at least be able to be around others who would encourage your getting fit and it sure doesn't hurt the already bruised ego to hear it coming from the opposite sex...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks, Ms. Mintcake. It did feel good. I think I'll head to the gym when I'm closer to my previous form  

Kingsfan, thanks for the helpful feedback. What you have told me are things that have been said in my mind, but are going to be placed into action. 30 minutes isn't much, especially when i take my kid for most of the morning on Sunday for her to sleep in. She frames it as Father-Son time, which I greatly enjoy, but it is clearly not just about that. Otherwise, she could run at least errand during that time instead of sleep in.


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks, Ms. Mintcake. It did feel good. I think I'll head to the gym when I'm closer to my previous form
> 
> Kingsfan, thanks for the helpful feedback. What you have told me are things that have been said in my mind, but are going to be placed into action. 30 minutes isn't much, especially when i take my kid for most of the morning on Sunday for her to sleep in. She frames it as Father-Son time, which I greatly enjoy, but it is clearly not just about that. Otherwise, she could run at least errand during that time instead of sleep in.


Not to belittle you, but if 30 minutes is such a big deal, she has you pretty tightly wound around her finger.

You need to emotionally distance yourself from this woman NOW!

So...work a lot harder. She can't gripe about you WORKING and when you're gone, you can't wait on her hand and foot like it seems you're doing.

If she says one word of complaint, ask her how far she thinks your unemployment check would go.

And when you DO finally come home, act wiped out and stressed. So you NEED downtime...and how can she justifiably say no? (UNjustifiably she can say anything...and you have a message from her about where you stand. But we already know that)

One hobby. One exercise regime. Overtime.

Overtime money, if any, goes into YOUR coffers for YOU to spend. Consider it investing in a new you.

Another sneaky trick is to lower any credit card limits. It will strike your credit rating a bit but if you focus it on cards SHE uses, it will make her feel a lot less financially secure to get dinged a few times in the stores.

Instant cover for you to work overtime. Instant interest in nesting and making sure Mr. Meal Ticket isn't going anywhere.

Or it could have the opposite effect in making her peevish and looking for greener pastures...while nursing someone else's child. Yeah. Good luck with THAT.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> Hey all, I ran 3 miles after work. W wasn't thrilled but told her that running is good for my health and good for the family. She tried to guilt trip me about how hard it was for her to take care our kid while I was gone for 30 minutes. I didn't apologize.


Half way there. Great with not apologizing. Next time, don't justify it as well. She is not your mother and you are not trying to avoid being grounded. You wanted to go running, so you went running - end of story and leave it at that.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Katydid4841 said:


> I know this is hard for men to understand, but for a man to go without sex the consequence is that he feels unloved, right? To a woman, if we force ourselves to have sex without being into it just to make our men happy, we feel disgusted, used, shamed, guilted, compromised, viiolated...and by our HUSBAND no less, the one man we thought would NEVER make us feel objectified.


Ummm...no. I'm not always in the mood, I grant you that. So I force myself and I have NEVER ONCE felt any of those things you listed. I was proud and happy to have met my husbands needs. Why should pleasing your husband make you feel used or shamed?

Now, if he's making you do things that are degrading, or if he's generally unloving and selfish, I get that. But sacrificing some of my own selfishness to please a loving and respectful husband...it's the opposite of degrading. It makes me feel like a worthy, wonderful wife. And since the OP has been nothing but patient, I say that his wife is just plain selfish.



> So forgive me, but your **** might not be quite as important as her moral integrity. And For the dude with the "Persistent Courting Technique", I hope that works out real well for you. I hope your wife does call the police because there are laws against emotional and sexual abuse in a marriage.


Moral integrity? Really? Having sex when you're not in the mood is now a matter of moral integrity? 

Soap box moment: how many woman actually think there men always enjoy doing romantic things for their girl? In the last few days, my husband has watched five or six episodes of Downton Abbey with me. He HATES those kids of shows. Hates them. And when he watches them with me and doesn't complain, and actually pays attention and laughs and appears to enjoy them(when I know he doesn't), is that "degrading"? When my husband spends thirty minutes in the flower shop to pick out the right bouquet, when he's tired from a day at work and is annoyed at his jerk of a boss and irresponsible coworkers, is that "shaming" him? When he comes home and decides to show me affection, even though his back is sore and he'd rather be relaxing while playing Halo or CoD, is that me "using him"? 

NO! It's a husband showing love to his wife and putting her first! And that's totally acceptable, but for a woman to get beyond herself and realize that it takes two people giving to each other to make a healthy marriage, and(gasp!) have sex when she may not feel like it, it's suddenly degrading?

Please. That's pure laziness, and nothing more. 

Again(before I get trampled to death), if the husband is taking advantage and doesn't show love to his wife and is a jerk, then yeah...sex can be demeaning. But otherwise, just plain NO.


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

I don't have much by way of advice, but with the working out...it is important to do that! She can suck it up for thirty minutes. People need fulfillment, personal fulfillment, in their lives to build confidence. Careers don't always fulfill us, and while our families can to a point, we all need that thing we do ourselves that releases stress, helps us relax, and boosts our esteem. Exercise is a great way to get that done and it builds physical health. 

Don't let her guilt trip you out of that. She probably sees this change, sees that it doesn't benefit her directly, and is jealous. Let her be jealous. Let her lose her feeling of self-importance a little bit, and let her see the great guy she could lose.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Created2Write said:


> I don't have much by way of advice, but with the working out...it is important to do that! She can suck it up for thirty minutes. People need fulfillment, personal fulfillment, in their lives to build confidence. Careers don't always fulfill us, and while our families can to a point, we all need that thing we do ourselves that releases stress, helps us relax, and boosts our esteem. Exercise is a great way to get that done and it builds physical health.
> 
> Don't let her guilt trip you out of that. She probably sees this change, sees that it doesn't benefit her directly, and is jealous. Let her be jealous. Let her lose her feeling of self-importance a little bit, and let her see the great guy she could lose.


Thanks. Your words are very validating. You're right about the jealousy, I believe. She wants all my energy directed at her, but then she feels justified somehow deprioritizing me. I sometimes wonder what is going on in that head of hers.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Thanks. Your words are very validating. You're right about the jealousy, I believe. She wants all my energy directed at her, but then she feels justified somehow deprioritizing me. I sometimes wonder what is going on in that head of hers.


It could simply be that she's feeling a little too comfortable in the relationship and is taking you for granted. She's married to a man who loves her and she has a child, and perhaps she feels that it's safe to go with what she feels like doing, rather than what she should be doing. 

It doesn't sound like you're likely to go overboard with this, so I do think this tactic of making her sit up and take notice of you is the way to go.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

JCD said:


> Not to belittle you, but if 30 minutes is such a big deal, she has you pretty tightly wound around her finger.
> 
> You need to emotionally distance yourself from this woman NOW!
> 
> ...


Thanks, JCD. I don't feel belittled. I'm taking a look in the mirror and recognizing how I contributed to this. I just started reading the MMSLP and I'm realizing that I need to regain my alpha. I'm sure my alpha-ness is what attracted her to me in the first place. I'm going to start working on me and we'll see what she wants in a mate.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Hello everyone, 
I just wanted to update everyone on my recent progress. Within the past few weeks, I have read No More Mr. Nice Guy and most of the MMSLP. I must say that the past few weeks have led to many insights. I used to think that I was fine and did not have many hang-ups, if any. However, as Dr. Glover (author of No More Mr Nice Guy) noted, it takes two unhealthy people to be in an unhealthy relationship. I’ve noticed that I’ve been guilty of the covert contracts, been terrible with boundaries, have had mother/father issues, and been too much of the rescuer/victim. I’m a piece of work, right?

In any case, I’ve been working hard on being more of the person that I like, and that my W fell for. Well these changes have been difficult for W and me. I’ve been hanging out with friends after work (not super late, but maybe enjoy a beer after work), getting to work on time, not rescuing W from inconvenience of having to get ready on time, and have been playing basketball with the guys during the weekends. This has led to W complaining about my lack of availability, but I’ve also felt happier about these aspects of my life.  I’ve been more productive at work and I’ve lost a few pounds, too! On top of that, the W has had dinner waiting on the table, too. 

I’m going to keep at it, but I haven’t seen any changes with regards to sex. I’ve started initiating again, but have been shot down each time. I tell that I thought that it would be fun, but go about my day like I’m not destroyed. We’ve gone out on a few dates, as well. On one date, she handed me her bra (a nursing bra) to put in the back seat so she could change into it after the date. I played dumb, and asked her if she was seducing me (similar to when a woman might hand you her underwear during the date), to which she replied that she’s too old (she’s 30) to do anything like handing me her underwear to seduce me. I told her age has nothing to do with it; we can have fun with each other like that until we’re old and gray. She said that would be weird. 

We haven’t had sex in 6 months. Before that, it was 24 months (9 months pregnancy, 15-16 months post-pregnancy). I told her that I’d like for us to work toward being physically intimate, to which she replied that she is still too “touched out” from BFing. She BFs our toddler once a night now. I said that I’d like to work together still as sex is important and that it does not have to be intercourse right now, but that it’s important that we at least try to work on this, noting that I’m worried that a passive approach would lead to indifference about our sex life. She said that she’ll be ready to have sex when she is done BFing (approximately 2-4 months from now). However, I’m sure that she’ll say she can’t have sex after she’s done BFing because she’s grieving that she is no longer BFing. 

I’m going to keep running the MAP and keep working on me, but I’m losing hope that my W will begin to make changes in our sex life. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m starting to open up to the idea that I might have to lose her to have the marriage or relationship I want. I just hope she’s not using our child as a hostage to keep me in this marriage.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> She said that she’ll be ready to have sex when she is done BFing (approximately 2-4 months from now).


Tell her that, whenever she's ready for sex, she can find you at your buddy Bob's condo at the beach. The one next to the single's bar. But no pressure. She should do this on her timeline.

Seriously. If you've had sex once in the last 30 months, I would proceed straight to DEFCON level 1 dread game.

Also, I just noticed the math here. Your wife is breastfeeding your 2.5 year-old child to avoid having sex with you? Put an end to that sh!t. That kid is old enough to be sleeping through the night and old enough to stop breast feeding.

Good luck.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Not that it makes a difference, but perhaps my math was off. our child is two. we've had sex 2-3 times (in late july/late august). otherwise, you're correct, no sex from may 2010, sex in july/august of 2012, and here we are in february. the part i struggle with is she denies BFing to avoid sex. also, i struggle with being assertive, but also wanting her to want sex, not just duty sex.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Tell her that, whenever she's ready for sex, she can find you at your buddy Bob's condo at the beach. The one next to the single's bar. But no pressure. She should do this on her timeline.
> 
> Seriously. If you've had sex once in the last 30 months, I would proceed straight to DEFCON level 1 dread game.
> 
> ...


your feedback is much appreciated. What do you mean by DEFCON 1? Are you talking separation, ultimatum?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Joe, head over to the nomoremrniceguy.com/forums . There is some good help over there specifically for recovering Nice Guys.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks, Thor. I've been meaning to go to that site. Perhaps, I've grown comfortable with the peeps at this forum.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Yeah, just pull the pin on the breastfeeding excuse. I breastfed my first till she was five and my second is 3 and still going. I have sex with my husband around 4/5 times a weeks.

She doesn't want to have sex with you and it has nothing to do with breastfeeding a toddler once a night. QQq


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Tell her that, whenever she's ready for sex, she can find you at your buddy Bob's condo at the beach. The one next to the single's bar. But no pressure. She should do this on her timeline.
> 
> Seriously. If you've had sex once in the last 30 months, I would proceed straight to DEFCON level 1 dread game.
> 
> ...


You seriously think if she weans the kid she'll suddenly want to have sex?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Yeah, just pull the pin on the breastfeeding excuse. I breastfed my first till she was five and my second is 3 and still going. I have sex with my husband around 4/5 times a weeks.
> 
> She doesn't want to have sex with you and it has nothing to do with breastfeeding a toddler once a night. QQq


That's not necessarily true. All women are different and at different points in their lives. Just because you had sex 4 or 5 times a week doesn't mean that "breastfeeding a toddler once a night" wouldn't affect other women. You are not her. My own wife was fine after the first child ... the second child, she struggled with depression that went on for a long time ... I was lucky not to get my head bitten off ... either one of them ... so sex was out of the question.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If the OP's wife is depressed, then that's different. But breastfeeding alone is not going to affect sex if the woman is otherwise interested.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> If the OP's wife is depressed, then that's different. But breastfeeding alone is not going to affect sex if the woman is otherwise interested.


I've asked about it and looked for symptoms, but she denies feeling depressed. She says that the bfingis killing her libido, which I hear happens, but am more hurt that she doesn't want to do anything about it.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

What was her libido like before your child was conceived? I'm having trouble reading the earlier posts - iPad issues.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Lyris said:


> What was her libido like before your child was conceived? I'm having trouble reading the earlier posts - iPad issues.


Typical was 1-3 times per week, but she has also had mental health stuff (anxiety, depression) and in those instances we have had months long droughts.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Yeah, just pull the pin on the breastfeeding excuse. I breastfed my first till she was five and my second is 3 and still going. I have sex with my husband around 4/5 times a weeks.
> 
> She doesn't want to have sex with you and it has nothing to do with breastfeeding a toddler once a night. QQq


eh, must agree with this. After the birth of my son, my wife had mastitis and an operation, so we actually didn't have sex for several months, and I didn't mind really, really, honestly, because I didn't have any drive at that time either. Our life went back to normal after my son is about one years old and my wife has recovered from surgery....

And so, with regrets, I must agree with Mrs. Lyris, that your wife is just pulling out an excuse..

We men are very easy to be fooled by women.. but remember, other women could easily see through those lies..


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

john_lord_b3 said:


> eh, must agree with this. After the birth of my son, my wife had mastitis and an operation, so we actually didn't have sex for several months, and I didn't mind really, really, honestly, because I didn't have any drive at that time either. Our life went back to normal after my son is about one years old and my wife has recovered from surgery....
> 
> And so, with regrets, I must agree with Mrs. Lyris, that your wife is just pulling out an excuse..
> 
> We men are very easy to be fooled by women.. but remember, other women could easily see through those lies..


Glad to hear your W is feeling better. I tend to agree. Sometimes she says she feels touched out, other times she says she sick or tired. By that time it is her period again. I suspect rationalization hamster is at work.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> your feedback is much appreciated. What do you mean by DEFCON 1? Are you talking separation, ultimatum?


I'm talking about running Athol's MAP in warp speed. You need to get in the best shape of your life ASAP. You need to work on yourself like a maniac.

As for dread game, most of the time the MAP, along with some preselection (your wife seeing other women interested in you) will raise her interest. But you need to go thermonuclear to shake her out of her fog.

So, I suggest that, this Saturday, you wear some smart casual clothes appropriate for a date, announce that you are going "out", leave the house, and turn off your phone. Go see a movie. When you return a few hours later, be vague about where you were, who you were with, and why your phone was off. If she gets angry and accusatory, get angry and accusatory right back. She doesn't trust you? She thinks you're out banging 20 year-olds just because you're not at her beck and call? That kind of thing.

Also, volunteer to go out of town on business. Your wife can't come. A trip to Vegas for work will make a wife feel awfully uneasy. Even if you can just travel a few hours away by car, get a hotel room so you don't have to come home really late. Get her hamster thinking.

Another suggestion is to stop responding to all her calls and texts. If she texts you something that doesn't require a response, don't respond. Don't send, "OK," or "See you later." Just leave it. She will probably call and text more often as a result.

Basically, you want to start pulling away from her and let her feel it happen. You need to break her from her belief that you will continue to take her sh!t for the rest of your life with no thought of your own happiness. Hopefully, she will respond by stepping up and fulfilling her obligations to you.

Good luck.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Lyris said:


> You seriously think if she weans the kid she'll suddenly want to have sex?


Not necessarily. But there are a few things at work that could help him. First, breastfeeding releases hormones that usually dampen libido in women. Second, she is getting up during the night, which will make her more tired. Third, she is reinforcing her unhealthy view of herself as only a mother and no longer a wife. Ending the breastfeeding won't cause her to want to jump his bones. But, it will help the situation. Even if it just ends her excuse for avoiding sex.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Not necessarily. But there are a few things at work that could help him. First, breastfeeding releases hormones that usually dampen libido in women. Second, she is getting up during the night, which will make her more tired. Third, she is reinforcing her unhealthy view of herself as only a mother and no longer a wife. Ending the breastfeeding won't cause her to want to jump his bones. But, it will help the situation. Even if it just ends her excuse for avoiding sex.


For the record, she doesn't wake up during the night, but I do on some nights to put him back in bed.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I've asked about it and looked for symptoms, but she denies feeling depressed. She says that the bfingis killing her libido, which I hear happens, but am more hurt that she doesn't want to do anything about it.


Be honest with yourself. The libido was killed long before breast feeding. She was not BF when she was pregnant, yet there was no sex then. Call her on that and quit letting her excuses get a pass.


----------



## lisab0105 (Oct 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I'm talking about running Athol's MAP in warp speed. You need to get in the best shape of your life ASAP. You need to work on yourself like a maniac.
> 
> As for dread game, most of the time the MAP, along with some preselection (your wife seeing other women interested in you) will raise her interest. But you need to go thermonuclear to shake her out of her fog.
> 
> ...


OP, DO NOT DO THIS!!! Especially if your wife deals with mental health issues. That will just do more harm than good. Do not play games, do not be passive aggressive. 

You two have serious issues, but letting her think you are screwing around or not caring about her anxiety will have consequences that I don't think either of you ready to deal with. 

You two need a marriage/sex therapist.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

lisab0105 said:


> OP, DO NOT DO THIS!!! Especially if your wife deals with mental health issues. That will just do more harm than good. Do not play games, do not be passive aggressive.
> 
> You two have serious issues, but letting her think you are screwing around or not caring about her anxiety will have consequences that I don't think either of you ready to deal with.
> 
> You two need a marriage/sex therapist.


I'm looking for a good marriage/sex therapist. The good ones in our area are out of network though. I'm trying to save some $. 

On the bright side, my W is now working part-time, which is a relief from a financial standpoint.


----------



## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Just chiming in, I've always been HD and breast feeding had my libido in the dumps. I hated that! I had duty sex pretty much which drove me nuts bc I used to love it. The month after I stopped my desire came back with a vengeance. 
But this is just off the charts, something else is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

lisab0105 said:


> OP, DO NOT DO THIS!!! Especially if your wife deals with mental health issues. That will just do more harm than good. Do not play games, do not be passive aggressive.
> 
> You two have serious issues, but letting her think you are screwing around or not caring about her anxiety will have consequences that I don't think either of you ready to deal with.
> 
> You two need a marriage/sex therapist.


I agree about not letting her think you are screwing around. That is childish and won't help.

I don't see any real anxiety issues that he should care about (at least not based on his posts). I do think he needs to stop worrying about her needs and be crystal clear about why. She is not worried about his, so he needs to focus on himself. That leaves him less time to worry about her. Tell her that calmly but firmly. He needs to tie his actions to his words. 

If she starts real work to address them, including going to a counselor, then start focusing on her. Until then, you can't stop her from hiding behind the baby.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> Just chiming in, I've always been HD and breast feeding had my libido in the dumps. I hated that! I had duty sex pretty much which drove me nuts bc I used to love it. The month after I stopped my desire came back with a vengeance.
> But this is just off the charts, something else is going on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree something else is going on. I've tried to open up discussions about our relationship and how to improve it, I've been working on me (physically, emotionally, establishing boundaries etc), but she just closes up and falls back on BFing, feeling tired, feeling sick. I even get a "stop it" if i try to just be flirty or playful with her in a sexual way. she used to love when i kissed her on the neck, but she stops that now. i've told her that not every interaction has to lead to sex, but she still refrains from these things.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree about not letting her think you are screwing around. That is childish and won't help.
> 
> I don't see any real anxiety issues that he should care about (at least not based on his posts). I do think he needs to stop worrying about her needs and be crystal clear about why. She is not worried about his, so he needs to focus on himself. That leaves him less time to worry about her. Tell her that calmly but firmly. He needs to tie his actions to his words.
> 
> If she starts real work to address them, including going to a counselor, then start focusing on her. *Until then, you can't stop her from hiding behind the baby.*


That's exactly it. It feels like she is holding our child hostage to have the relationship go her way. 

At least I'm not failing the fitness tests. It's uncomfortable when she complains or goes into silent treatment mode, but I can't be doing everything for her.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> I agree something else is going on. I've tried to open up discussions about our relationship and how to improve it, I've been working on me (physically, emotionally, establishing boundaries etc), but she just closes up and falls back on BFing, feeling tired, feeling sick. I even get a "stop it" if i try to just be flirty or playful with her in a sexual way. she used to love when i kissed her on the neck, but she stops that now. i've told her that not every interaction has to lead to sex, but she still refrains from these things.


IIRC, didn't she say something about having another baby before?

Ask her how in the world she plans on doing this without sex? And before she can give a smart ass remark, tell her options like invetrofertilization are off the table.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> Glad to hear your W is feeling better. I tend to agree.


Och, thank you! It was long time ago, 2008..



> Sometimes she says she feels touched out, other times she says she sick or tired. By that time it is her period again. I suspect rationalization hamster is at work.


Yea, it's more like it Mr. Henderson.

Here's a bit of personal experience. My assistant's wife is a homemaker, taking care of two young kids. Living very modestly because his income is rather small. Life is very exhausting for both of them (she has a lot of work at home to do with no help from anyone, he has to work from 8AM to 7PM daily, and still need another 2 hours to go back home). 

But, to our amazement, they have normal sex life (none of those "I am too @*#!! tired to become your sperm receptacle, don't touch me, go away!!" stuff), and it was HER who complained to _me_ and asking me to give her husband a day off or two. "Why?" I asked. "Sir, because when he gets too tired from all the tasks you gave him, he often just sleeps after eating dinner! How can I get a third child from him if at home he only eats and sleeps??"...


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> IIRC, didn't she say something about having another baby before?
> 
> Ask her how in the world she plans on doing this without sex? And before she can give a smart ass remark, tell her options like invetrofertilization are off the table.


Yup, I told her that I'm happy with one and that I'd want to be confident about our financial security and sex life before even considering having a 2nd child.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> IIRC, didn't she say something about having another baby before?
> 
> Ask her how in the world she plans on doing this without sex? And before she can give a smart ass remark, tell her options like invetrofertilization are off the table.


Well if she wanted to have a baby, I'm sure she'd be all over me. That's what happened last time. We were on one of those months-long droughts, we started having sex again, she said she wanted a baby, we had sex like rabbits for a month, she got pregnant, the end.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

After having sex once in 2.5 years or so, how can you ever be confident again regarding your sex life? Actions indicate that gate is getting closed again immediately after she finds out she's pregnant.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

You should probably lay it on the line even more than that. "Why would I want to have another child with you after the way our sex life disappeared after the first one? I don't trust you at all with my sex life, I can't rely on you. So I'm not going to trust you as the mother of more children either."


----------



## Tango (Sep 30, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Not that it makes a difference, but perhaps my math was off. our child is two. we've had sex 2-3 times (in late july/late august). otherwise, you're correct, no sex from may 2010, sex in july/august of 2012, and here we are in february. the part i struggle with is she denies BFing to avoid sex. also, i struggle with being assertive, but also wanting her to want sex, not just duty sex.


I love my babies dearly as any mother here will tell you. I breastfed both my children for a total of 10 months. I'm good with the fact that I gave them the best start I could. But I also wanted my life back. Your W is absolutely using it as an excuse to avoid you. My H and I didn't avoid each other even when I was BFing. My H loved how big and full my breasts were (tmi??). He just had to be a little more gentle than usual. By using BFing as her excuse she is using the child. I personally think the max is 2yrs, but that's HMO.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> After having sex once in 2.5 years or so, how can you ever be confident again regarding your sex life? Actions indicate that gate is getting closed again immediately after she finds out she's pregnant.


Agreed. She'd also think she could go on a 2-year hiatus from work. No sex & little money doesn't do it for me.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tango said:


> I love my babies dearly as any mother here will tell you. I breastfed both my children for a total of 10 months. I'm good with the fact that I gave them the best start I could. But I also wanted my life back. Your W is absolutely using it as an excuse to avoid you. My H and I didn't avoid each other even when I was BFing. My H loved how big and full my breasts were (tmi??). He just had to be a little more gentle than usual. By using BFing as her excuse she is using the child. I personally think the max is 2yrs, but that's HMO.


I agree with your statements. The thing is she thinks it would be selfish to wean him right at 2 years old, like she isn't being a good enough mother. Then she said that she's going to be near heartbroken when she is done BFing him because of the bond. 

I said you two will still have that bond in different ways and you and i can work toward our own physical closeness. 

she said, "yeah, but i'm going to be so sad."


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Agreed. She'd also think she could go on a 2-year hiatus from work. No sex & little money doesn't do it for me.


She sounds like an entitled princess. I can't wrap my head around why you're putting up with it.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Working, We've had a lot of good times, too. I guess I put up with it because I'm flawed in my own ways. It's like what Glover from No More Mr Nice Guy says: I've been used to accepting table scraps of affection. 

I've also been educated by her family on how to become totally beta-ized. Her father is an admirable workhorse, but an emotionally beaten man. Her brother is the most beta guy (terrified of guys) i know. i learned that when my W was young, she would get what she wanted from her parents when they'd give in to her tantrums. I've been making changes, which scares her family, but they've also been encouraging of my establishing boundaries.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

lisab0105 said:


> OP, DO NOT DO THIS!!! Especially if your wife deals with mental health issues. That will just do more harm than good. Do not play games, do not be passive aggressive.


I think quietly seething over a lack of sex, or trying to debate her into having sex is more passive aggressive than just leaving the house and turning your phone off.



lisab0105 said:


> You two have serious issues, but letting her think you are screwing around or not caring about her anxiety will have consequences that I don't think either of you ready to deal with.


First, he actually has to stop caring about her anxiety. She has used her anxiety to hold him, and the rest of her family, hostage for her entire life. That won't stop until the Joe can just not care about it.

As for letting her think he's screwing around, I don't recommend trying to steer it that way entirely. I wouldn't recommend he put condoms, or a motel receipt, in his glove compartment or anything like that. I just recommend planting the seeds of worry that it could happen. For his entire marriage, Joe has reassured his wife that he would never, ever stray from her no matter how badly she treated him. Demanding more free time for himself, away from home, will let her natural fears of him straying grow. And that's healthy. A wife should be afraid that, if she mistreats her husband, he will find a better woman.



lisab0105 said:


> You two need a marriage/sex therapist.


I disagree. A marriage counselor can be very useful for two people who want the same thing, but have different ideas on how to accomplish the goal, or for two people who just have trouble communicating.

That's not Joe's problem. His problem is that his wife doesn't want to have sex with him. She understands her position. She understands his position. There's no confusion. And they don't want the same thing. She wants a celibate marriage. He doesn't. She gets it. Why pay someone to lay out what is already very clear?


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> I agree something else is going on.


Try a mental exercise. Assume your wife is not attracted to you. Now, think about her behaviors. Do most of her behaviors conform to those of a woman who isn't attracted to her husband? If yes, then you may just have your answer right there.


----------



## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Mr. Joe, there are lots of great advice and stories here in this thread, if you have time please have a look http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/66397-hd-ld-marriage-how-avoid-how-enjoy-how-get-out.html


----------



## Tango (Sep 30, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> I agree with your statements. The thing is she thinks it would be selfish to wean him right at 2 years old, like she isn't being a good enough mother. Then she said that she's going to be near heartbroken when she is done BFing him because of the bond.
> 
> I said you two will still have that bond in different ways and you and i can work toward our own physical closeness.
> 
> she said, "yeah, but i'm going to be so sad."


SHE'S ALREADY GIVING YOU THE REASONS SHE WON 'T BE HAVING SEX WITH YOU IN THE FUTURE!!!! 

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take something major for her to wake up an see what she has done and is doing to her marriage. But it almost sounds like it doesn't really matter to her.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Let me share some experience from just shy of the quarter century point with my wife.

This shouldn't be about your wife's raw libido, it should be about her love for you and desire to please you. 

At 50 my wife's libido is way way down and yet a couple times a week she initiates and rocks my world. 

Your wife is convinced in that deep down place which drives decisions, that you won't leave her over this. And in my opinion you should not. You simply tell her, that for now all the pressure is off, you are going to make other arrangements for your sex life and there is no need for further discussion until she is ready to resume a normal, healthy sex life and connect at least a couple times a week with a loving spirit. And that there is no hurry for that. 

Prepare to be threatened with divorce. And have a short response ready. Maybe something like:

If my choices are forced celibacy or divorce, I am choosing not to tolerate forced celibacy. 

And be ready to deal with your family and hers. Keep it short:
- I love wifesname and it is also true that I am no longer willing to tolerate her blatant disrespect and neglect. 
- if you wish to help our marriage you are welcome to remind wifesname that she vowed to love me and has been breaking that vow for years












JoeHenderson said:


> I've asked about it and looked for symptoms, but she denies feeling depressed. She says that the bfingis killing her libido, which I hear happens, but am more hurt that she doesn't want to do anything about it.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> Agreed. She'd also think she could go on a 2-year hiatus from work. No sex & little money doesn't do it for me.


I understand that you have had good times in the past with her, and that's a good thing, but please read what is quoted here.

What would Joe from five years ago say if he found out you were putting up with a wife who thinks she is perfectly entitled to have sex with you once in 30 months and is quite ready to go on a two-year hiatus from work.

I bet you'd kick your own ass.

I'm going to be as blunt as I can about what I think your wife sees you as; *a sperm donor and a paycheque*.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Try a mental exercise. Assume your wife is not attracted to you. Now, think about her behaviors. Do most of her behaviors conform to those of a woman who isn't attracted to her husband? If yes, then you may just have your answer right there.


Tough pill to swallow, but yes her actions are consistent with a woman who is not attracted to me.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> Tough pill to swallow, but yes her actions are consistent with a woman who is not attracted to me.


I hear you. It's a rude awakening. But it's part of the red pill. It's part of learning the way that women actually think, versus the way they tell you that they think.

Your wife has spent your marriage telling you that she wants you to spend more time catering to her. And now that you're spending almost all your time catering to her, she shows you that she's not attracted to that at all. Trust me. It's better to learn it via a steady decline in sex than to learn it when she's mimicking porno moves with her new boyfriend.

So you have to snap out of it and realize what she probably wants is actually a man with plenty of alpha to go along with his beta. In other words, a man who won't take sh!t from her. You also need to snap her out of it so that she realizes that her preferred marriage (where you serve her unconditionally) is no longer an option. She can either get on board with a happy, sexual marriage, or she will have an unhappy, sexless marriage, or no marriage at all. Those should be her only options.

Good luck.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tango said:


> SHE'S ALREADY GIVING YOU THE REASONS SHE WON 'T BE HAVING SEX WITH YOU IN THE FUTURE!!!!
> 
> Unfortunately, I think it's going to take something major for her to wake up an see what she has done and is doing to her marriage. But it almost sounds like it doesn't really matter to her.


It would seem like she is giving me reasons. It doesn't seem to matter, but she tends to frame the BFing thing as common enough in marriages and that it is just unfortunate. 

This is the website she refers to:
Will breastfeeding interfere with my sex drive? | BabyCenter



> If you're not among these lucky few, though, remind yourself — and your mate — that it's normal for a nursing mother's sex drive to take a detour into the slow lane. Just be sure to keep the lines of communication open and find other ways to be intimate (take a bath together, trade massages, or pop the baby into a front carrier and stroll hand in hand after dinner). Most important, put it all in perspective: Many new parents decide that this temporary downturn in desire is a trade-off they're more than willing to make for the health benefits and intense bonding that breastfeeding offers.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Slow lane? She's off the road and parked in the garage. There were a number of things listed from the other site. Communication. Baths together. Massages. Is she doing these things? Is she reading the whole thing or just the parts she wants to hear?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Slow lane? She's off the road and parked in the garage. There were a number of things listed from the other site. Communication. Baths together. Massages. Is she doing these things? Is she reading the whole thing or just the parts she wants to hear?


The things she wants to hear as I told her. And me wanting other forms of sex outside of PIV is selfish according to her because she doesn't "get any pleasure out of it."


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Ask her if its better for your child to keep breast feeding after age 2 or to live with a single mother. After all she's supposedly all about the child's best interest.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ask her if its better for your child to keep breast feeding after age 2 or to live with a single mother. After all she's supposedly all about the child's best interest.


:iagree: Ask her the above. Working is dead on imo.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> It would seem like she is giving me reasons. It doesn't seem to matter, but she tends to frame the BFing thing as common enough in marriages and that it is just unfortunate.


Of course she's framing it as a common, but unfortunate, result of having children. That casts her in a good light. Do you honestly expect her to frame the issue as one of her being a frigid shrew?

And honestly, it doesn't matter how common it is. Yes, it is common for the sex drive of new mothers to decline. And it is also common for many of those women to continue unfairly denying their husbands sex long after their bodies have rebounded. Does that make it right? If my neighbor beats his wife, does that mean I'm justified in beating mine?



JoeHenderson said:


> This is the website she refers to:
> Will breastfeeding interfere with my sex drive? | BabyCenter


I checked it out. It was talking about new mothers feeding infants. I will agree that 3am feedings are brutal. Waking up 2 or 3 times a night is brutal. Feeding every two hours can be rough. But that's not your wife's situation. Your child is two years old!!! He's not breastfeeding every two hours. He's eating chicken McNuggets and fries and acting as your wife's personal c0ck block.

I know that it's seductive to believe your wife's excuses. Even when they're as obviously lame as this one is. I mean, if your wife is just helpless to overcome her body's natural aversion to sex, then that means there's nothing wrong with you. You don't have to change.

Well, I'm here to tell you that you and your wife are both full of it. Her excuses are obviously crap and you need to either accept that she isn't attracted to you, and work to change that, or just accept that she will continue to find reasons to deny you sex for the rest of your marriage. It will actually be freeing for you to accept life as a celibate man rather than your current purgatory of sexlessness.

Good luck.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

phtlump said:


> he's eating chicken mcnuggets and fries and acting as your wife's personal c0ck block.


:rofl:


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Her blatantly ignoring your number need for two years is at the high end of selfish. 

The odd thing is that she knows she is in the wrong. This isn't about fairness it is about strength. She will do what she can get away with. 


QUOTE=JoeHenderson;1402980]The things she wants to hear as I told her. And me wanting other forms of sex outside of PIV is selfish according to her because she doesn't "get any pleasure out of it."[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> It would seem like she is giving me reasons. It doesn't seem to matter, but she tends to frame the BFing thing as common enough in marriages and that it is just unfortunate.
> 
> This is the website she refers to:
> Will breastfeeding interfere with my sex drive? | BabyCenter


Your problem is you are still treating this like it is a legitimate argument. BF is a distraction from the real issue. She was not BF when she was pregnant, yet you had no sex then. So quit wasting any time pretending like this excuse has any merit.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Your problem is you are still treating this like it is a legitimate argument. BF is a distraction from the real issue. She was not BF when she was pregnant, yet you had no sex then. So quit wasting any time pretending like this excuse has any merit.


I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.


You are long past the time when it is perfectly legitimate to go into A-hole territory.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
You need to take actions such that she wants to address this. If you keep initiating you will fail. 



QUOTE=JoeHenderson;1403155]I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.[/QUOTE]


----------



## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

Your wife shuts you out for two years and you're worried about being an a-hole? Come on man, really think about what you are saying here. Stand up for yourself, you only get one life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JoeHenderson said:


> I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.


A-Hole is punching her in the face. Are you planning on doing that? I seriously doubt it.

Assertive is telling her that you now realize that she only regards you as a paycheck and a butler, and you refuse to go along with her demands any longer. If she wants to live like roommates, you will be roommates. You will put a sock on the bedroom door knob when you are with another woman.

The line is clear. You're just trying to come up with some excuse to avoid action. You are your wife's accomplice in denying you sex.


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.


My guess is that your natural personality will prevent you from getting into a-hole behavior. And if you do, I am not convinced that is the worst thing.

Before I forget, in your reading to work on you, did you look into His Needs/Her Needs and Love Languages. It may be useful to get a better idea of what you need and what she may need to have a great relationship and recieve love. This is not to say that you should stop your assertiveness, only that you should be prepared to work on that side of things as well.


----------



## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> My guess is that your natural personality will prevent you from getting into a-hole behavior. And if you do, I am not convinced that is the worst thing.


That's a good point. For many men who have the Nice Guy persona so ingrained in them, being assertive will feel to them as if they are being an ass. And they don't have it in them at all to be an actual jerk. So, for such a person, I recommend actions that feel like you're being a jerk. That should get you to assertive.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks guys. You all make strong points. It's amazing how your most intimate relationships can bring out the worst in you. I have no trouble being vocal with my supervisors, friends, co-workers, etc, but I've let this petite lil thing called my wife rule my house. Some changes have been made, which i appreciate. she works now, cooks more, has even been submissive in some confrontations, but i am an accomplice in my sexlessness. 

well if i'm going to run the MAP, i need to go all in. the thing is why should i be so afraid of being a jerk when she's been more than that on several occasions?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Thanks guys. You all make strong points. It's amazing how your most intimate relationships can bring out the worst in you. I have no trouble being vocal with my supervisors, friends, co-workers, etc, but I've let this petite lil thing called my wife rule my house. Some changes have been made, which i appreciate. she works now, cooks more, has even been submissive in some confrontations, but i am an accomplice in my sexlessness. 

well if i'm going to run the MAP, i need to go all in. the thing is why should i be so afraid of being a jerk when she's been more than that on several occasions?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> My guess is that your natural personality will prevent you from getting into a-hole behavior. And if you do, I am not convinced that is the worst thing.
> 
> Before I forget, in your reading to work on you, did you look into His Needs/Her Needs and Love Languages. It may be useful to get a better idea of what you need and what she may need to have a great relationship and recieve love. This is not to say that you should stop your assertiveness, only that you should be prepared to work on that side of things as well.


I have not. Who is the author lf His Needs/Her Needs and Love Languages?


----------



## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

JoeHenderson said:


> I have not. Who is the author lf His Needs/Her Needs and Love Languages?


I believe they are both by Harley. It helps make sure you are working smarter with your wife.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
At some point you will fully accept two core marital truths:
- you cannot make your partner do anything 
- choosing to deprioritize a selfish unloving spouse is not being an ahole

So far you have consistently communicated the following messages to your wife:
- you will accept her blatantly lying about her reasons for refusing to have sex with you
- you are still planning to provide her more children behind whom she can conceal her lack of interest in sex with you
- your highest priority is having sex, instead of being treated in a respectful and loving manner

After all the crap she has dished out, you are still initiating. You are letting her hold you completely hostage over sex. 

An assertive posture would have been, if bf makes you touched out to the point of being unwilling to have sex, I will accept x months of it. If you elect to put yourself and the baby ahead of me and the marriage after that time, it is going to seriously impact our marriage. 







QUOTE=JoeHenderson;1405246]Thanks guys. You all make strong points. It's amazing how your most intimate relationships can bring out the worst in you. I have no trouble being vocal with my supervisors, friends, co-workers, etc, but I've let this petite lil thing called my wife rule my house. Some changes have been made, which i appreciate. she works now, cooks more, has even been submissive in some confrontations, but i am an accomplice in my sexlessness. 

well if i'm going to run the MAP, i need to go all in. the thing is why should i be so afraid of being a jerk when she's been more than that on several occasions?[/QUOTE]


----------



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> I believe her reasons are invalid. The part I struggle with is how to call her out on it while balancing the line b/n assertive and A-Hole territory.


You got a LONG stretch of road before you make up with your pathetic betaization. The fact you are worrying about it so much is frankly beta right there.

Imagine you were in a cage. Every so often, your wife dangles a bit of meat over the cage, a few scraps, nothing more.

That is your life. And you are afraid of offending the jailer.

Marriage is a contract. If she insists on a sexual monopoly, *SHE IS ON THE HOOK TO PROVIDE THE SERVICE!*

Otherwise, the contract is null and void.

That little snippet of entitled mommy drivel? It said BOTH PARENTS agree. Well, inform her you are DONE agreeing. 

At this point, you need to drag all her stuff to the babies room. She wants to be Earth Mom, arbitrarily doling out sex on a Mayan Calendar basis, she can live with the focus of her life. 

Then you get your ass to the gym, the movies and a strip club in that order. You go home smelling like cigarettes and liquor and you don't get home until 1 a.m. I don't care if it's a work day.

You have tried reasonable communication. You've tried...well...a lot of stupid stuff.

There is communication in silence. Give her that.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

infidelity?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> infidelity?


That's a legitimate question. I don't think so, but am not closed to the idea. All I know is that I go to work before she does, she comes back home from work on time based on mother in's report and I come home not too long after. I suppose there is still online relationships to consider. Most of her co-workers are women with one or two gay men.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> That's a legitimate question. I don't think so, but am not closed to the idea. All I know is that I go to work before she does, she comes back home from work on time based on mother in's report and I come home not too long after. I suppose there is still online relationships to consider. Most of her co-workers are women with one or two gay men.


What about you? Have you considered looking for outside servicing?


----------



## TryingandFrustrated (Nov 7, 2012)

JoeHenderson said:


> I have not. Who is the author lf His Needs/Her Needs and Love Languages?


Williard Harley for His Needs/Her Needs
Gary Chapman for The Five Love Languages


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> What about you? Have you considered looking for outside servicing?


Well I do notice other women and I think they notice me, but no I have not considered an affair. I would consider divorce before an affair.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Good to hear. And how close are you to considering a divorce?


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> Good to hear. And how close are you to considering a divorce?


Well closer than when I first joined this site. I am working on me right now. I hope I can come out of this with a better version of me in the near future and that my W can appreciate that version. If not, then I'm ready to move on. It's not fair to me or my child if she attempts to use OUR child as a hostage as a way of keeping me; something she appears to be doing.

I guess there is no timeline right now.


----------



## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

You may need to strike a timeline, just for yourself. If you don't set up a timeline it is easy to fall into the trap of "I can take it for another day/week/month" until you relaize that 10 years has flown by.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Think about this a little:
I am divorcing you because you won't have sex with me (this is fair but..)
Or
I am going to get my needs met elsewhere, but I will be discreet about it.


Option 2 creates a very interesting situation for her. She is now in proximity with an h who has completely taken control of the situation. You seem to have lost sight of the connection between female fury and female desire. And the best response to a woman who is angry because you are enforcing boundaries is amusement and if she gets physical with you, pin her and give her a few solid smacks on the azz. And as you let her up smile and say "behave". 

Tall is right. You are way too afraid of upsetting her. If she wanted a divorce she would already be gone. And if she does divorce you over the open marriage, you were going to end up there anyway.




JoeHenderson said:


> Well closer than when I first joined this site. I am working on me right now. I hope I can come out of this with a better version of me in the near future and that my W can appreciate that version. If not, then I'm ready to move on. It's not fair to me or my child if she attempts to use OUR child as a hostage as a way of keeping me; something she appears to be doing.
> 
> I guess there is no timeline right now.


----------



## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

JoeHenderson said:


> Well closer than when I first joined this site. I am working on me right now. I hope I can come out of this with a better version of me in the near future and that my W can appreciate that version. If not, then I'm ready to move on. It's not fair to me or my child if she attempts to use OUR child as a hostage as a way of keeping me; something she appears to be doing.
> 
> I guess there is no timeline right now.


As a therapist and psychologist myself, I am now convinced that talk about sexual issues is only indicated ONCE as far as it is the man who is not getting enough sex. I have discussed various ways to get more sex in other threads and you already have good help here, so I wont repeat myself unnecessarily.

What you need is patience and a little bit less interest in your relationship, just a little bit. At least outwardly.
The easiest way is to have days in which you are off with friends without reporting this aforehand, after yes, aforehand no. Also you should slightly change your behaviour at home, wake up earlier or later and breakfast alone. Dont always be there for dinner etc.. just some few slight changes.
In order for this to work well, you will at the same time have to remain the loving husband and father, so no passiv agressiveness please. So when you are around her, be cool and good.

And another thing. In case she calls you on your new behaviour, do not boast or argue or defend yourself. Please no! Acknowledge it and say that you are feeling energetic in the past and you just sometimes need your room. 

This might hurt her a litte or might provoke you to enter a quarell, but please resist. She gets in rage because of any change your making -> you are winning ground back! You argue, you lose it. It might often take less than 3-4 days for her to get calm or get used. Be also prepared that she will hit you back on your weakest spots, that is natural. You ever really wanted to be a man, then take those hits!
I remember my wife having become the loveliest person after I got out of my closet and stood in her storm without shaking.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

kingsfan said:


> You may need to strike a timeline, just for yourself. If you don't set up a timeline it is easy to fall into the trap of "I can take it for another day/week/month" until you relaize that 10 years has flown by.


Very good points. I'm going to think about that. I'm thinking the timeline will be some time when i believe my Sex Rank is 2 points higher.


----------



## JoeHenderson (Oct 3, 2011)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> As a therapist and psychologist myself, I am now convinced that talk about sexual issues is only indicated ONCE as far as it is the man who is not getting enough sex. I have discussed various ways to get more sex in other threads and you already have good help here, so I wont repeat myself unnecessarily.
> 
> What you need is patience and a little bit less interest in your relationship, just a little bit. At least outwardly.
> The easiest way is to have days in which you are off with friends without reporting this aforehand, after yes, aforehand no. Also you should slightly change your behaviour at home, wake up earlier or later and breakfast alone. Dont always be there for dinner etc.. just some few slight changes.
> ...


This sounds good. I appreciate your feedback. I guess my homework is to hang out with some friends. That doesn't sound so bad.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Joe,
Your 'real' homework is to learn how to be friendly, polite and honest with your wife so she sees where this is heading. 

Let me flip this around for you. There are many posts from men who are aggressively pressing their wives to spend more time with them. I doubt that works very well. What does work is being someone that your spouse wants to be with. 

In your case it really is ok to tell your wife that you will e glad to spend more time with her when she acts in a way that you like. Let her give you a massage, let her focus on being pleasing to you. 




QUOTE=JoeHenderson;1409163]This sounds good. I appreciate your feedback. I guess my homework is to hang out with some friends. That doesn't sound so bad.[/QUOTE]


----------

