# Why do men think they are entitled to porn?



## sparkyjim

I have been lurking here for a while and I do write extensively on other forums.

It's a recurring theme - here and in other places - women don't want their men to watch porn, the men do. The other day I even saw an argument made by a guy that a wife who wanted to watch it with her hubby was intruding on his alone time!!!

Anyway, I'm no prude, but I am open minded and I have come to see that modern day porn is probably one of the most destructive things to come along. It can affect marriages, it can affect relationships, it can affect both sexes self esteem, it causes sexual dissatisfaction, it can even lead to ED and difficulty orgasming.

My question is do men think that they should be allowed to watch porn - and why? 

_*EDIT NOTE : After seven pages of responses I realized that I could reword my question.

I meant to ask if men think that they are entitled to watch porn - even if his partner wishes that he would not.*_

My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.

I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


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## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> I have been lurking here for a while and I do write extensively on other forums.
> 
> It's a recurring theme - here and in other places - women don't want their men to watch porn, the men do. The other day I even saw an argument made by a guy that a wife who wanted to watch it with her hubby was intruding on his alone time!!!


I'm familiar with (and have posted to) that thread. The issue is/was not that she wanted to watch with him, but the way in which she did so (and other indicators of how she seems to view him that were present in the thread). 



> Anyway, I'm no prude, but I am open minded and I have come to see that modern day porn is probably one of the most destructive things to come along. It can affect marriages, it can affect relationships, it can affect both sexes self esteem, it causes sexual dissatisfaction, it can even lead to ED and difficulty orgasming.
> 
> My question is do men think they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?
> 
> My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.
> 
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


Now, to the root of your question....

Why should I (or anyone else) be "allowed" to watch porn? Well...I think that's a pretty loaded question, in that phrasing.

Why do I watch it? For the same reasons that I'll watch, say, _How I Met Your Mother_, _Bones_ and _Castle_ tonight: I enjoy it.

You mention several detrimental effects that it porn can have and I'm glad you phrased it the way you did, because the key word there is "can." It's not inherently destructive...the destructive behavior and outcome comes from someone misusing it. But then, the same can be said of losing perspective on any pastime.

It's a genre of entertainment that has been accorded more power than it possesses by many. And, those who have given it such power fall on both sides of the fence about the genre.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

Nobody tells me what I am allowed to do. I'm not monogamous because its not "allowed". I'm monogamous because I choose to be.

I watch porn, have always watched porn, and will always watch porn. I make no secret of it and its never been a problem. My ex wife wasn't a fan of it... but then she wasn't a fan of my occassional nights out with the guys from work, video games, motorcycle rides, boxing... and God only knows what else.

Alcohol is undoubtedly more destructive than porn, but you don't see 100 anti-drinking threads because women aren't jealous of alcohol and theres a widely accepted difference between recreational use and abuse. Porn, like alcohol, *can* be a problem if abused... but most guys looking at porn here and there aren't neglecting their wives. The majority of the desire to control what men get off to comes down to simple insecurity.

What next? Controlling men's wanking thoughts in the shower? Dreaming? I'm sure these women would if they could.

I'd personally think it was cool if a woman wanted to watch and participate with me. But one who just wants to control me to alleviate her own insecurity can find herself another man. I am who I am, I like what I like, and I'm not about to change it because someone is so insecure the very thought that something other than them is capable of turning me on makes them jealous. These women tend to be attention needy and controlling in other areas too.

I don't have the 8 in. dong these guys in porn do, and I certainly don't feel inadequate and insecure about it. And I certainly don't regulate what kind of dildo, vibrator or dirty novel a woman can have.


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## WorkingOnMe

I think wives should have the "first right of refusal", but if they refuse, then the husband is entitled to porn.


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## DvlsAdvc8

WorkingOnMe said:


> I think wives should have the "first right of refusal", but if they refuse, then the husband is entitled to porn.


Helloooooo duty sex. :\


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## AnnieAsh

sparkyjim said:


> I have been lurking here for a while and I do write extensively on other forums.
> 
> It's a recurring theme - here and in other places - women don't want their men to watch porn, the men do. The other day I even saw an argument made by a guy that a wife who wanted to watch it with her hubby was intruding on his alone time!!!
> 
> Anyway, I'm no prude, but I am open minded and I have come to see that modern day porn is probably one of the most destructive things to come along. It can affect marriages, it can affect relationships, it can affect both sexes self esteem, it causes sexual dissatisfaction, it can even lead to ED and difficulty orgasming.
> 
> My question is do men think they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?
> 
> My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.
> 
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


I don't think it is always a case of "allowed to." I think sometimes people have to decide if porn is worth the angst or arguments. If a spouse says I just don't want it in my marriage, well...then the other has to choose. I don't issue ultimatums to my husband. I am letting him decide for himself. Do you want a healthy (ie: vigorous) sex life or as many fake tatas as your brain can handle?

I'm not his mother. I am his wife. I'm "allowed" to have sex with other men. It is my body. I choose not to because that would ruin my marriage and take away from my husband. 

Porn can definitely be destructive to some people. I am jealous of wives who have husbands who only watch when she is indisposed. My husband would watch 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if he could, with snack and bathroom breaks sprinkled in there.


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## Deejo

It is a very, very, very recurring theme. And thus ...










We'll be watching.


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## Faithful Wife

It takes a lot of sexual intelligence for a man to understand the reasons why he, himself, should choose against porn use as a regular past time. The desire to watch it is an obviously normal reaction (women have the same normal reaction). The reasons why one shouldn't do it at every turn, are not so obvious. As I said, it requires a lot of maturity to say "sure I like seeing naked people, but I choose not to do it constantly".


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## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> I am jealous of wives who have husbands who only watch when she is indisposed. My husband would watch 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if he could, with snack and bathroom breaks sprinkled in there.


Can't there be a happy medium here?

Once in a blue moon, I'm horny but I don't really want sex. I want to orgasm to absurdly erotic fantasy without having to take care of someone else. Sure, I could get a bj... and bjs are great, but sometimes I don't want to bother her for a bj. Other times I want some visual variety or to even watch stuff I don't want to actually DO. Sometimes I want to watch porn or read an erotic story because I *want to be in the mood*. I'm not gonna go initiate with my girl when I'm not even in the mood myself... or say "hey, do something sexy... I want to be turned on so I'll be in the mood for sex". Then there's days where I'm just feeling lazy and want a quick nut. 

Porn every day, or even very often, would be down right disatisfying to me. It serves a purpose and mood. I won't tell anyone else how often or to what they masturbate... and I damn sure am not gonna let anyone tell me.

omg, Scarlet Johansen turned me on in The Avengers!!! No more watching the Avengers! Adolescent boys were even spanking it to PG images of women if they couldn't get their hands on porn. I can still remember my favorite sexy videos on MTV. 

Unless a woman is being neglected for a man's porn habit, its basically a ridiculous thing to want to control imo.


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## Disenchanted

sparkyjim said:


> My question is do men think they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


I'm not "allowed" to do anything.

I do whatever I want.

I am a man.


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## EleGirl

Because they want to do what they want to do.


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## Kobo

Let's make a deal. We men will give up our Entitlement to porn if you ladies give up your entitlement to monogamy. Fighting my biological urges to pursue other women is becoming tiresome. Why should I have to suffer. God made me his way. Please hold your counsel of the females and let my wife know of the acceptance of these terms.


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## Faithful Wife

Sorry, we women have already held that council. The answer is "no". We don't want to give up our natural biological urge to keep looking for a bigger, better deal.


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## Disenchanted

Hypergamy = love


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry, we women have already held that council. The answer is "no". We don't want to give up our natural biological urge to keep looking for a bigger, better deal.


Yeah, that wasn't part of negotiations. No one has asked you to stop. Men just wish that when you found that bigger and better deal they didn't have to supplement your income.


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## Disenchanted

Kobo said:


> Yeah, that wasn't part of negotiations. No one has asked you to stop. Men just wish that when you found that bigger and better deal they didn't have to supplement your income.


Amen!


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## Faithful Wife

You are wrong, mine HAS asked me to stop.


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## EleGirl

Kobo said:


> Let's make a deal. We men will give up our Entitlement to porn if you ladies give up your entitlement to monogamy. Fighting my biological urges to pursue other women is becoming tiresome. Why should I have to suffer. God made me his way. Please hold your counsel of the females and let my wife know of the acceptance of these terms.


Keep in mind that it is men who kept women from having sex with multiple men. That's why until more recently in the western culture, women were severely punished for cheating but men often had mistresses. Also in many cultures from the dawn of time, there was polygamy.

Note that today women cheat about as often as men do. I don't think that women are any more monogamous than men are.

Today women can have children with as many men as she wants... it's back to the way it was in nature.. right?


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## *LittleDeer*

I agree with you OP. I don't get it at all. It is using other people sexually, they are real women, even if you will never meet them. 

Kobo, god must have made me to seek out the fittest strongest, best provider to procreate with. Should I ditch my spouse every time some one seemingly better comes along to fit that role? Or is it my choice to remain faithful and stay with my spouse? You seem to forget women have sex drives and biological urges too. 

I can also do whatever I want, but if I want to stay with my SO I have to respect him and put our relationship first. If he doesn't like something nor want it in our relationship, I don't view it as controlling, just as him not wanting cheating is not controlling. Calling it controlling is a way to blame shift and stomp your feet to get what you want at all costs. I just can't understand why porn has so much importance.


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## EleGirl

Kobo said:


> Yeah, that wasn't part of negotiations. No one has asked you to stop. Men just wish that when you found that bigger and better deal they didn't have to supplement your income.


No one has ask the woman to stop? Are you kidding me. How many men accept their wife looking for another man?


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## Kobo

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that it is men who kept women from having sex with multiple men. That's why until more recently in the western culture, women were severely punished for cheating but men often had mistresses. Also in many cultures from the dawn of time, there was polygamy.
> 
> Note that today women cheat about as often as men do. I don't think that women are any more monogamous than men are.
> 
> Today women can have children with as many men as she wants... it's back to the way it was in nature.. right?


Well then everyone should be happy right? I mean if men and women are monogamous on the same level then why are so many women concerned that their men are cheating on them with porn? I still say we'll give up porn for the ability to screw who we can when we want. C'mon ladies it'll be just like "hall pass". We goofy, no game men wouldn't even know what to do. It's a win/win for you ladies.


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## Faithful Wife

Kobo....yes so when your wife is being banged by a richer, taller dude....you're going to be so ok with that, eh?

Right.


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## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> Well then everyone should be happy right? I mean if men and women are monogamous on the same level then why are so many women concerned that their men are cheating on them with porn? I still say we'll give up porn for the ability to screw who we can when we want. C'mon ladies it'll be just like "hall pass". We goofy, no game men wouldn't even know what to do. It's a win/win for you ladies.


As long as it goes both ways.


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## *LittleDeer*

Kobo said:


> Well then everyone should be happy right? I mean if men and women are monogamous on the same level then why are so many women concerned that their men are cheating on them with porn? I still say we'll give up porn for the ability to screw who we can when we want. C'mon ladies it'll be just like "hall pass". We goofy, no game men wouldn't even know what to do. It's a win/win for you ladies.


 that doesn't make any sense at all. 

But sure lets all just screw around instead.


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## Kobo

EleGirl said:


> No one has ask the woman to stop? Are you kidding me. How many men accept their wife looking for another man?


Plenty accept that women will always be susceptible to the "bigger, better man". Most that do attempt to be the "bigger,better man" for their wives. Either way that was not part of the negotiations. Let's try to stay on subject ladies. I know it's hard for you.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> Kobo....yes so when your wife is being banged by a richer, taller dude....you're going to be so ok with that, eh?
> 
> Right.


I would leave as she has found someone"bigger and better".


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## Faithful Wife

What I also don't get, is if porn viewing is sooooo important to you guys, why don't you get divorced and find a woman who is into it just like you are? There are women like this out there. So instead of whining about how your wife is trying to "control you", why not dump her and find a woman who enjoys your particular sexual tastes?

Oh and suddenly....it isn't "that" important, right? It is only important enough for you to defy her, hide it from her, and do anything you can to justify it...but not enough to leave and ACTUALLY be a man and exert your true entitlement.

See here's the thing. My husband could have easily said "yeah babe, I'm just not going to stop watching it, this is who I am", and I could have easily said "ok I can respect that, I guess we can't be together". Problem solved.

Instead here is what really happened...we discussed porn like adults when we were dating, (what with it being a part of many people's adult sex lives and all, it comes up). We came to an agreement that we would only watch it together BECAUSE he doesn't want ME randomly surfing the internet and ending up who knows where doing who knows what.

Because the thing is, some of us women are just as likely to get super freaky as you men are...and when it is known and understood, men don't like the idea of it (their spouse randomly looking at anything they might want to) any more than women do.

I guarantee though that some of your wives ARE doing just that. And the day you find out about it, you are going to be freaked out.


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## *LittleDeer*

Kobo said:


> Plenty accept that women will always be susceptible to the "bigger, better man". Most that do attempt to be the "bigger,better man" for their wives. Either way that was not part of the negotiations. Let's try to stay on subject ladies. I know it's hard for you.


Who said you get to make the rules. It's not your topic and it is on subject, you just don't like the way it's going, typical cake eater response. 

You get porn to fulfil your "biological" urges and we women get to upgrade at the drop of a hat to fulfil ours.


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## Faithful Wife

"I would leave as she has found someone"bigger and better".....

Which should only take a few moments.


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## tacoma

sparkyjim said:


> My question is do men think they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?


The sad part is that you're not kidding, not even remotely.


I am "allowed" to watch porn because my wife is my lover not my mommy.

Unreal.


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## Kobo

TiggyBlue said:


> As long as it goes both ways.


Of course. I am a fierce proponent of equality.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> "I would leave as she has found someone"bigger and better".....
> 
> Which should only take a few moments.


Is this a personal attack?


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## Faithful Wife

No, just a response that is as valid as yours was.


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## Faithful Wife

So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?

If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.

Why are you ashamed of it?

Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


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## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> What I also don't get, is if porn viewing is sooooo important to you guys, why don't you get divorced and find a woman who is into it just like you are? There are women like this out there. So instead of whining about how your wife is trying to "control you", why not dump her and find a woman who enjoys your particular sexual tastes?
> 
> Oh and suddenly....it isn't "that" important, right? It is only important enough for you to defy her, hide it from her, and do anything you can to justify it...but not enough to leave and ACTUALLY be a man and exert your true entitlement.
> 
> See here's the thing. My husband could have easily said "yeah babe, I'm just not going to stop watching it, this is who I am", and I could have easily said "ok I can respect that, I guess we can't be together". Problem solved.
> 
> Instead here is what really happened...we discussed porn like adults when we were dating, (what with it being a part of many people's adult sex lives and all, it comes up). We came to an agreement that we would only watch it together BECAUSE he doesn't want ME randomly surfing the internet and ending up who knows where doing who knows what.
> 
> Because the thing is, some of us women are just as likely to get super freaky as you men are...and when it is known and understood, men don't like the idea of it (their spouse randomly looking at anything they might want to) any more than women do.
> 
> I guarantee though that some of your wives ARE doing just that. And the day you find out about it, you are going to be freaked out.


:iagree:
If someone has told their partner from the get go they don't want to be with someone who watches porn than find someone else.
No one has a right to dictate if someone watches porn, no one has the right to dictate what someone's deal breakers in a relationship are either.


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## Kobo

tacoma said:


> The sad part is that you're not kidding, not even remotely.
> 
> 
> I am "allowed" to watch porn because my wife is my lover not my mommy.
> 
> Unreal.


I think some live by the rule " I control the coochie so I control house"


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## Faithful Wife

If a man is OPENLY watching porn and his wife has no issue with this, great. I'm all for that.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> No, just a response that is as valid as yours was.


No it was an attack. I believe that is frowned upon. Please see this as an initial warning. The next one will be reported.


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## Faithful Wife

sigh....yawn.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?
> 
> If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Why are you ashamed of it?
> 
> Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


Who says anyone is hiding it in this thread? If someone is hiding it then they are probably in fear of the response from their spouse.


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## Faithful Wife

Feel free to report me, no problem. Take it however you want to. Just realize I know nothing about you, your situation, what you look like, nothing. So how it was a personal attack, you'll have to really paint a picture for that one.

Anyway....so why do you guys hide your porn if you are "adults" who don't need your wife's permission?


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## Faithful Wife

"...probably in fear of the response from their spouse."

And how is this healthy or mature?

If you fear your own spouse, why are you married to them?


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## *LittleDeer*

Kobo said:


> I think some live by the rule " I control the coochie so I control house"


That made me throw up in my mouth a little. Eww

In my house we don't turn each other down. 

We both believe in having a great connected sexual relationship and we don't use other people for it. Weird I know.


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## tacoma

Kobo said:


> I think some live by the rule " I control the coochie so I control house"


Some men have their own boundaries that won't allow them to play that game.

My wife even hints at using sex as a weapon she, I, and everyone who lives under this roof is in deep **** and she's aware of it.

My wife also picks out the porn so not a problem I'm likely to deal with.

Maybe one reflects on the other.


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## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> "...probably in fear of the response from their spouse."
> 
> And how is this healthy or mature?
> 
> If you fear your own spouse, why are you married to them?


The same reason they fear their spouse.
They're too timid to put a foot down on a boundary.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> Feel free to report me, no problem. Take it however you want to. Just realize I know nothing about you, your situation, what you look like, nothing. So how it was a personal attack, you'll have to really paint a picture for that one.
> 
> Anyway....so why do you guys hide your porn if you are "adults" who don't need your wife's permission?


Your statement that it wouldn't take my wife long to find someone bigger and better insinuated that I'm not very big or very good. It was an attack. You meant it as an attack. No need to run from that. I will report the next one you direct towards me. I answered your second question above.


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## WorkingOnMe

*LittleDeer* said:


> That made me throw up in my mouth a little. Eww
> 
> In my house we don't turn each other down.
> 
> We both believe in having a great connected sexual relationship and we don't use other people for it. Weird I know.


Ignoring the weird side conversation about getting it elsewhere....I do like this policy. If my house was like that, i.e. "we don't turn each other down" and "having a great connected sexual relationship" then I wouldn't really feel "entitled" to porn. Getting to the point where I get my needs met outside of that took a long time and a LOT of rejection. At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn. For the record, my wife has no problem at all saying no. I guess porn has become my way of refusing to let my needs be controlled by someone who won't fulfill them.


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## Faithful Wife

So your "challenge" to "us women" to let men go get some on the side was totally serious? I should report you too, then. For being absurd, when clearly you expected the responses to NOT be absurd. 

Double standards are bad for everyone.


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## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> "...probably in fear of the response from their spouse."
> 
> And how is this healthy or mature?
> 
> If you fear your own spouse, why are you married to them?


Why do abused women stay with the men that abuse them? It's not healthy or mature but that person needs to get to a point where they value themselves as much or more than their partner.


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## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?
> 
> If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Why are you ashamed of it?
> 
> Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


I don't hide it at all but I can tell you why many do if you're willing to try to understand.

As young boys in this western Christianized culture we go through puberty, we like the female form, we're obsessed by the female form.
Can't help it it is what it means to be a pubescent/post pubescent male.

As boys somewhere along the line someone (usually a woman of authority) Mother, baby sitter, grandmother, father whoever, busts us looking at nekkid chicks and loses their freaking minds on us little dudes with a tirade or guilt attack that leaves our little minds traumatized.

So we learn to "Hide the porn or mom will freak the hell out!"
Because it doesn't matter how bad mom (or whoever) gets upset we're still pubescent boys who like to look at nekkid chicks.

Then our first girlfriend finds a Playboy in our closet AND THE SAME EXACT TIRADE AND ****STORM REPEATS ITSELF ..yet again with another woman we love/care for.
This traumatizes us yet again and we learn to hide the porn.

A few years of this and lying about porn becomes second nature.
It's the only way to deal with it unless you decide to eventually tell those authoritative women to piss off and deal with it themselves or find one who doesn't compare herself unfavorably with plastic porn queens.

In other words ..women condition us to do exactly what they say they hate us doing.

The irony never fails to illicit a giggle from me whenever I see it and I see it a lot around here.


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## Faithful Wife

"At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn."

Why not just leave and find someone who is sexually compatible?

Sorry, I don't buy the whole "because we have kids" story.


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## *LittleDeer*

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ignoring the weird side conversation about getting it elsewhere....I do like this policy. If my house was like that, i.e. "we don't turn each other down" and "having a great connected sexual relationship" then I wouldn't really feel "entitled" to porn. Getting to the point where I get my needs met outside of that took a long time and a LOT of rejection. At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn. For the record, my wife has no problem at all saying no. I guess porn has become my way of refusing to let my needs be controlled by someone who won't fulfill them.


I can fully understand that, but isn't that like saying I am happy with this arrangement and porn is good enough, you do not have to even try to meet my needs? 

I have been in a bad marriage where my needs weren't met (non sexual) and a relationship that my sexual needs weren't met, and I do fully understand it. It's awful, soul destroying stuff. 

Now I'm vocal about my needs, and boundaries.


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## WorkingOnMe

Faithful Wife said:


> "At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn."
> 
> Why not just leave and find someone who is sexually compatible?
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy the whole "because we have kids" story.


I think you know that it's not so simple. I mean, you come off as being smarter than that.


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## Faithful Wife

"So we learn to "Hide the porn or mom will freak the hell out!" "

I did ask for an answer that did not include the word "mommy".....do you not see how much double talk this is?

"I can watch whatever I want because my wife is not my mommy, but I have to hide it because my mommy made me feel bad when I was wittle". Sure, totally adult thinking there.

I say, if you're going to watch it, do it in the open and discuss what you like about it with your wife.

If you OR she can't handle that, then get divorced and find the woman who is right for you.

Tacoma, you already said you don't hide and your wife picks it so....this doesn't apply to you. But still, why even bring up "mommy made me feel bad"....seriously?


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## Faithful Wife

"I think you know that it's not so simple. I mean, you come off as being smarter than that."

Being that I am divorced, and a large part of "why" is due to sexual imcompatibility....yes I know it isn't that simple but I also know that to have real integrity, it must be done in some cases.

I'm all for being true to yourself FIRST, not your spouse first.


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## WorkingOnMe

I don't hide it. It's more like I "proclaim" it.


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## EleGirl

Kobo said:


> Plenty accept that women will always be susceptible to the "bigger, better man". Most that do attempt to be the "bigger,better man" for their wives. Either way that was not part of the negotiations. Let's try to stay on subject ladies. I know it's hard for you.


Yes women will always look for men who are the "bigger, better man".

Men will always look for better looking women (looks are all that matter here). 

IT's not true that most men attempt to be the "bigger, better man" to their wife. Most do this while dating and then forget to keep up the act after she has accepted him as a mate.


Negotiations are not one sided. Sorry about that. We women have a say in this as well. 

:rofl:


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## Faithful Wife

WOE...You recently said in another thread that you were actually having a hard time stopping viewing it. I read that and felt sad for you immediately, because you might be headed down the path of addiction.

So that is cool you "proclaim" it, but I'm pretty sure you also hide it...the amount or the type of porn, or something about it. That's one of the first signs of addiction.

I'm not picking on you...I just think it is all related, even though many people want to feel it isn't.


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## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> "So we learn to "Hide the porn or mom will freak the hell out!" "
> 
> I did ask for an answer that did not include the word "mommy".....do you not see how much double talk this is?


Do you see how egotistical it is to ask a question and then deny an answer before it's even been stated?
You cannot ask for a sincere answer to a question and disqualify the most general truthful answer before it's even stated.
I don;t care if you don;'t like the answer.
In western culture men are conditioned by women to be ashamed and secretive about their porn use.

You apparently have heard that answer more than once now yet you still ask the question.
You have your answer, you already had it..you just don't like to know that you're part of the problem.
Not my problem.
:smthumbup:



> "I can watch whatever I want because my wife is not my mommy, but I have to hide it because my mommy made me feel bad when I was wittle". Sure, totally adult thinking there.


I don't hide **** because I won;'t tolerate living with a woman with such deep insecurity issues so again..not my problem.
I'm telling you that the vast majority of men I know and myself have been conditioned to hide the porn.
This is a fact.



> I say, if you're going to watch it, do it in the open and discuss what you like about it with your wife.


How can you do this when your wife irrationally freaks out every time a tit crosses a screen your looking at?
Have you actually read any of these porn threads?



> If you OR she can't handle that, then get divorced and find the woman who is right for you.


Divorced over porn?
Can you see why a guy with a couple of kids might be reluctant to do this?
It's crazy.
I say don't marry a woman who has this hang up.



> Tacoma, you already said you don't hide and your wife picks it so....this doesn't apply to you. But still, why even bring up "mommy made me feel bad"....seriously?


Because it's the correct answer.
It's the truth, it's what it is whether you like it or accept it or not.

If you spend your life with the vast majority of women/people freaking out (literally FREAKING OUT) on you for doing something you see no problem with could condition someone to just say **** it what she don't know won't hurt her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tacoma....once again, I understand why men hide it from their mommy.

I do not understand why they hide it from their wives.

GET A DIFFERENT WIFE WHO LIKES PORN, TOO!

What didn't you understand about MY response?


----------



## EleGirl

WorkingOnMe said:


> Ignoring the weird side conversation about getting it elsewhere....I do like this policy. If my house was like that, i.e. "we don't turn each other down" and "having a great connected sexual relationship" then I wouldn't really feel "entitled" to porn. Getting to the point where I get my needs met outside of that took a long time and a LOT of rejection. At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn. For the record, my wife has no problem at all saying no. I guess porn has become my way of refusing to let my needs be controlled by someone who won't fulfill them.


My experience is that even men who get all they ask for and more from their wife use porn.

There are more men then some realize who get to the point of preferring porn to a live, willing woman.

So what is the woman supposed to do to get her frustrations undere control? Porn? Other men? You tell me. What are we women entitled to?


----------



## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> "So we learn to "Hide the porn or mom will freak the hell out!" "
> 
> I did ask for an answer that did not include the word "mommy".....do you not see how much double talk this is?
> 
> "I can watch whatever I want because my wife is not my mommy, but I have to hide it because my mommy made me feel bad when I was wittle". Sure, totally adult thinking there.
> 
> I say, if you're going to watch it, do it in the open and discuss what you like about it with your wife.
> 
> If you OR she can't handle that, then get divorced and find the woman who is right for you.
> 
> Tacoma, you already said you don't hide and your wife picks it so....this doesn't apply to you. But still, why even bring up "mommy made me feel bad"....seriously?


He was giving you a reason why boys start hiding it. At least that's his belief. I never had porn mags at home to hide. I did find my moms penthouse forum stash one day. I didn't masturbate until I was 19 on a med cruise. I probably had been with just over a handful of women by that time. I still didn't use porn for that. I used whatever woman I could think of. I didn't use porn for masturbation until I found onionbooty.com. That may be why I don't feel I need to hide it. I don't have many bad memories of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tacoma said: "I say don't marry a woman who has this hang up."

This I completely agree with, although it suggests that the man in question was completely honest and forthcoming about his porn use, frequency, type of porn, etc...in order for the woman in question to know exactly what was being asked of her before and after marriage.

If you guys don't think there are women out there who are sexually compatible with you on this issue, you are wrong.

There are millions of them!


----------



## Grayson

Faithful Wife said:


> So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?
> 
> If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Why are you ashamed of it?
> 
> Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


I don't hide it. My wife has known as long as we've been together that I enjoy porn. She does too, from time to time. As long as it doesn't supplant her, she doesn't mind. In fact, there are times that she'll arrange for me to have the house to myself so that I might indulge myself without interruption.

So, by all means, please tell me more about how I'm "ashamed."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *LittleDeer*

So if a woman is made to feel ashamed about her sexuality, and many are its ok for her to hide things from her husband. Great, sounds healthy. 

I don't think boys should be made ashamed of their sexuality, neither should girls, and plenty of girls have their parents freak out over their sexuality too.

The thing is porn does not = sexuality, it's just so available, but that doesn't make it healthy. 

I have told my daughter and I will tell my son, that being interested in sex, naked bodies and all of that stuff is normal. It's healthy etc.. But porn is not healthy sex, it's not a real sexual relationship. I'll explain that it can create unrealistic expectations, that it can interfere with a healthy sex life and why. I will also tell them not to settle for a non sexual marriage and explain why healthy sex lives are very important, how they bond people, and to be careful not replace sexual intimacy with porn. 

I do think despite what has happened to me in the past, that I as a 30 something year of woman should be able to figure out what I need in a relationship, and move past the trauma of my childhood and early adulthood, to make good decisions about my relationships and sex life.


----------



## Kobo

Faithful Wife said:


> Tacoma....once again, I understand why men hide it from their mommy.
> 
> I do not understand why they hide it from their wives.
> 
> GET A DIFFERENT WIFE WHO LIKES PORN, TOO!
> 
> What didn't you understand about MY response?


Because to most men porn isnt a big enough deal to divorce... I mean pay child support over. So they hide it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ocotillo

sparkyjim said:


> My question is do men think they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?


People (Both men and women) feel that they are allowed to pick and choose their reading and viewing materials because people (Both men and women) feel that freedom of thought is a basic human right. 

Do you disagree?

I'm not asking this because I don't believe there's all kinds of very good reasons to voluntarily forgo this genre of entertainment. --Just curious about your word choice


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> Because to most men porn isnt a big enough deal to divorce... I mean pay child support over. So they hide it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So they control what should be a big deal to their partner?
That sounds as controlling as someone who knew their partner watched porn and then years down the road objects to it.


----------



## Kobo

Do you ladies realize that a lot of men probably masturbate to live women that know or see on a routine basis? Are you comfortable knowing that your husband is in the shower banging away to the thought of your son's recently graduated 3rd grade teacher? How about your cousin he met at the wedding? I always find it funny the focus on porn when we masturbate to women much easier to reach all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kobo

TiggyBlue said:


> So they control what should be a big deal to their partner?
> That sounds as controlling as someone who knew their partner watched porn and then years down the road objects to it.


That's not what I said. I answered that the porn watcher doesn't see it as a big enough deal to pay child support over. Not that they are determining what is a big deal for their spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sandc

I don't watch porn unless my wife wants to join me. And frankly also because she can get me off quicker than porn. But she has no problem with me watching it.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> Do you ladies realize that a lot of men probably masturbate to live women that know or see on a routine basis? Are you comfortable knowing that your husband is in the shower banging away to the thought of your son's recently graduated 3rd grade teacher? How about your cousin he met at the wedding? I always find it funny the focus on porn when we masturbate to women much easier to reach all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really a problem I do the same with hot men I see 

In all seriousness though if a partner watches porn from the get go and nothing is said about not wanting to have a partner who watches it, then they haven't really got a right to b*tch about it later.
If someones has a partner who doesn't want to be with someone who watches porn, so does it in private (because they decided this shouldn't be a deal breaker for their partner) and gets found out, they have no right to b*tch about how their partner responds.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> That's not what I said. I answered that the porn watcher doesn't see it as a big enough deal to pay child support over. Not that they are determining what is a big deal for their spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They kind of are though if the spouse has made it clear that porn in marriage is a deal breaker. They are choosing to hide it to not have negative consequences of their own actions.


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Can't there be a happy medium here?
> 
> Once in a blue moon, I'm horny but I don't really want sex. I want to orgasm to absurdly erotic fantasy without having to take care of someone else. Sure, I could get a bj... and bjs are great, but sometimes I don't want to bother her for a bj. Other times I want some visual variety or to even watch stuff I don't want to actually DO. Sometimes I want to watch porn or read an erotic story because I *want to be in the mood*. I'm not gonna go initiate with my girl when I'm not even in the mood myself... or say "hey, do something sexy... I want to be turned on so I'll be in the mood for sex". Then there's days where I'm just feeling lazy and want a quick nut.
> 
> Porn every day, or even very often, would be down right disatisfying to me. It serves a purpose and mood. I won't tell anyone else how often or to what they masturbate... and I damn sure am not gonna let anyone tell me.
> 
> omg, Scarlet Johansen turned me on in The Avengers!!! No more watching the Avengers! Adolescent boys were even spanking it to PG images of women if they couldn't get their hands on porn. I can still remember my favorite sexy videos on MTV.
> 
> Unless a woman is being neglected for a man's porn habit, its basically a ridiculous thing to want to control imo.


I'd love there to be a happy medium! Sadly, he is incapable of it. That's not to say I don't believe it exists, but a "quick nut" is something that my husband literally cannot do. He'll watch for hours. 

So, I'm being neglected because he can't masturbate for 2 hours AND have sex with me. But I'm being controlling because I ask him NOT to? If he's entitled to porn, then I'm entitled to have my appetites appeased elsewhere.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kobo said:


> Do you ladies realize that a lot of men probably masturbate to live women that know or see on a routine basis? Are you comfortable knowing that your husband is in the shower banging away to the thought of your son's recently graduated 3rd grade teacher? How about your cousin he met at the wedding? I always find it funny the focus on porn when we masturbate to women much easier to reach all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That cracks me up. Women ogle men just as much as men ogle women. I've been known to go watch the SEALs run for my own spank bank. And don't even get me started about hanging out around the fire station by the library. Whoooeeee! Those guys know me there!


----------



## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> That cracks me up. Women ogle men just as much as men ogle women. I've been known to go watch the SEALs run for my own spank bank. And don't even get me started about hanging out around the fire station by the library. Whoooeeee! Those guys know me there!


Interesting. So you go watch live men run and the firestation to have images to masturbate later. These men know you , this is some how acceptable but watching some nameless actress with herpes that you'll never meet isn't. Interesting indeed.


----------



## Kobo

TiggyBlue said:


> They kind of are though if the spouse has made it clear that porn in marriage is a deal breaker. They are choosing to hide it to not have negative consequences of their own actions.


You're putting in a lot of ifs. Just like most men don't tell their spouses that they will continue with porn most women do not make it clear that porn is a deal breaker.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> You're putting in a lot of ifs. Just like most men don't tell their spouses that they will continue with porn most women do not make it clear that porn is a deal breaker.


That was my point before, if porn is a deal breaker they need to tell there partner early on (they can then go find someone who has no problem with porn if it's important to keep watching it). If their partner hides it from then on that's on his/her own head.


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> Do you ladies realize that a lot of men probably masturbate to live women that know or see on a routine basis? Are you comfortable knowing that your husband is in the shower banging away to the thought of your son's recently graduated 3rd grade teacher? How about your cousin he met at the wedding? I always find it funny the focus on porn when we masturbate to women much easier to reach all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, see, therein lies the issue... they'd have to be masturbating in the first place in order to be masturbating to these women. And, not every man even masturbates. 

To the OP, not all men ever feel that way about porn. Some choose not to watch it because they are morally opposed to it. And, they actually do stand by what they say. Granted, they are in the minority, but they do exist.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kobo said:


> Interesting. So you go watch live men run and the firestation to have images to masturbate later. These men know you , this is some how acceptable but watching some nameless actress with herpes that you'll never meet isn't. Interesting indeed.


Sure, why not? Didn't you just get finished pontificating on how men think about their kids' teachers or wife's cousins or whatever nonsense? It is ok for men to do it, but not women? I'm not getting my needs met at home, so I HAVE to turn to live porn! Duh! I'm entitled to it!

The men know me because I am adorable and friendly. I like to chitchat.


----------



## sparkyjim

ocotillo said:


> People (Both men and women) feel that they are allowed to pick and choose their reading and viewing materials because people (Both men and women) feel that freedom of thought is a basic human right.
> 
> Do you disagree?
> 
> I'm not asking this because I don't believe there's all kinds of very good reasons to voluntarily forgo this genre of entertainment. --Just curious about your word choice



I do agree - yes - a poor choice of words as it turns out. 

I meant to reiterate the question which was the title of the thread - basically why do men think that they are entitled to watch porn - i.e. - even if their spouse or SO has asked them not to - or feels insecure if he does use it.


I would like to reframe the question because it has fallen apart a little bit.

There have been some good comments and some name calling. I'm not surprised that the moderator would be concerned.

Anyways I really liked this quote by Little Deer...

"The thing is porn does not = sexuality, it's just so available, but that doesn't make it healthy.

I have told my daughter and I will tell my son, that being interested in sex, naked bodies and all of that stuff is normal. It's healthy etc.. But porn is not healthy sex, it's not a real sexual relationship. I'll explain that it can create unrealistic expectations, that it can interfere with a healthy sex life and why. I will also tell them not to settle for a non sexual marriage and explain why healthy sex lives are very important, how they bond people, and to be careful not replace sexual intimacy with porn."


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> Interesting. So you go watch live men run and the firestation to have images to masturbate later. These men know you , this is some how acceptable but watching some nameless actress with herpes that you'll never meet isn't. Interesting indeed.


She has said, multiple times on TAM, that the problem is her husband's FREQUENCY. She'd be fine if it weren't for the fact that he basically uses all his free time to masturbate, and even turns her down for sex, in favor of masturbation. He feels he can do it, no matter what, and refuse sex with his wife. So... how is that ok?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kobo said:


> You're putting in a lot of ifs. Just like most men don't tell their spouses that they will continue with porn most women do not make it clear that porn is a deal breaker.


The crazy thing is some of DO make it clear that we would prefer not to have heavy users. Some of us made it clear long before we said "I do." But instead of being as honest with us as we were with THEM, we were stuck with lying weasels who defend to the death their right to choke the chicken like acne ridden teenagers!

I don't give a poop about porn. What I do care about is being sexually unsatisfied because of overuse and entitlement.


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> Well, see, therein lies the issue... they'd have to be masturbating in the first place in order to be masturbating to these women. And, not every man even masturbates.
> 
> To the OP, not all men ever feel that way about porn. Some choose not to watch it because they are morally opposed to it. And, they actually do stand by what they say. Granted, they are in the minority, but they do exist.


Yep, but all those men are taken by the women on TAM


----------



## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> Sure, why not? Didn't you just get finished pontificating on how men think about their kids' teachers or wife's cousins or whatever nonsense? It is ok for men to do it, but not women? I'm not getting my needs met at home, so I HAVE to turn to live porn! Duh! I'm entitled to it!
> 
> The men know me because I am adorable and friendly. I like to chitchat.




I think a woman can do what they want to do. I find it funny that one is acceptable and one is not. What's even funnier is the one where the fantasy actually has a chance of happening is the one that's acceptable. But hey that's me. Be happy.


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> She has said, multiple times on TAM, that the problem is her husband's FREQUENCY. She'd be fine if it weren't for the fact that he basically uses all his free time to masturbate, and even turns her down for sex, in favor of masturbation. He feels he can do it, no matter what, and refuse sex with his wife. So... how is that ok?


It's not ok


----------



## richie33

I think there are many men and women who have different definitions on what is porn. Some would say Playboy is porn. Others would not.
If your husband / wife is choosing porn over a willing partner than I am sure 100% of this board would agree that is wrong.
My opinion is if your husband / wife is adamant that porn is wrong for the marriage...you should try and stop; or come to a compromise.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kobo said:


> I think a woman can do what they want to do. I find it funny that one is acceptable and one is not. What's even funnier is the one where the fantasy actually has a chance of happening is the one that's acceptable. But hey that's me. Be happy.


Here's the difference. I tell my husband "Babe, when you watch porn incessantly, I find my attraction to you lessened. You are not as considerate a lover. You are too focused on your own pleasure." He tells me, "Annie, it is my right to watch porn. How dare you try to control what I do with my body! I'm an adult! *insert righteous indignation empowered by the all-mighty penis.*"

Then flip it. He comes to me and says, "Annie, I hate when you watch the Navy/Marine guys run. It makes me feel insecure. I find myself not wanting to be with you." Do you know what my response would be? "I am so sorry, J. Let me make it up to you. I won't do that anymore." 

See? But people get so caught up in what is their God Given Right, that they don't bother thinking about...hey maybe my spouse won't find me sexy if I watch porn constantly.


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> Yep, but all those men are taken by the women on TAM


No, not at all. Some are single men as well. See, the thing about being morally opposed to something doesn't immediately mean that they don't struggle with the temptation to succumb. It means that even with that struggle, they choose not to give in because their personal morals mean more to them than the instant gratification. And, it's not just my own husband who feels this way. There are other married men who feel the same way. Most, I will admit, as far as the men I know personally, are from my own church. But, again, these are men who recognize the hypocrisy in saying they don't then doing it anyway... and they choose not to partake for the above mentioned reason. But then, there are some who are NOT members of my church who feel the same way. Granted, they are not as numerous as those who are "for" it, but they do exist, and they are not just men married to ladies on TAM.


----------



## sparkyjim

AnnieAsh said:


> Here's the difference. I tell my husband "Babe, when you watch porn incessantly, I find my attraction to you lessened. You are not as considerate a lover. You are too focused on your own pleasure." He tells me, "Annie, it is my right to watch porn. How dare you try to control what I do with my body! I'm an adult! *insert righteous indignation empowered by the all-mighty penis.*"
> 
> Then flip it. He comes to me and says, "Annie, I hate when you watch the Navy/Marine guys run. It makes me feel insecure. I find myself not wanting to be with you." Do you know what my response would be? "I am so sorry, J. Let me make it up to you. I won't do that anymore."
> 
> See? But people get so caught up in what is their God Given Right, that they don't bother thinking about...hey maybe my spouse won't find me sexy if I watch porn constantly.



It's a good point... Look up the meaning of the word obtuse...
That seems to be his problem.


----------



## sparkyjim

Maricha75 said:


> No, not at all. Some are single men as well. See, the thing about being morally opposed to something doesn't immediately mean that they don't struggle with the temptation to succumb. It means that even with that struggle, they choose not to give in because their personal morals mean more to them than the instant gratification.



My personal morals tell me that there is nothing wrong with using porn.

The research I have done has totally changed my thinking in regard to porn use because I have come to see that using porn is the worst thing that I can do for myself - especially if I want a committed satisfying relationship with a real woman.


----------



## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> Here's the difference. I tell my husband "Babe, when you watch porn incessantly, I find my attraction to you lessened. You are not as considerate a lover. You are too focused on your own pleasure." He tells me, "Annie, it is my right to watch porn. How dare you try to control what I do with my body! I'm an adult! *insert righteous indignation empowered by the all-mighty penis.*"
> 
> Then flip it. He comes to me and says, "Annie, I hate when you watch the Navy/Marine guys run. It makes me feel insecure. I find myself not wanting to be with you." Do you know what my response would be? "I am so sorry, J. Let me make it up to you. I won't do that anymore."
> 
> See? But people get so caught up in what is their God Given Right, that they don't bother thinking about...hey maybe my spouse won't find me sexy if I watch porn constantly.


Well your problem isn't porn or a man's "entitlement" to porn. That's a husband that has no concern for you. Would it be better if he didn't watch porn but the only way he has sex with you is for you to dress up as a nun every night and he calls you by his old catholic school teachers name while only entering you anally, finishing in 20 seconds. Wouldn't it be the same if you came to him wanting to have sex in way that you could also get enjoyment but he responded the same as you posted above. I haven't read all your stories but for most men the ultimate expression of love for their partner is with sex. If he isn't having sex with you I would say he's expressing to you that he has a very limited amount of love for you. IMO.


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> No, not at all. Some are single men as well. See, the thing about being morally opposed to something doesn't immediately mean that they don't struggle with the temptation to succumb. It means that even with that struggle, they choose not to give in because their personal morals mean more to them than the instant gratification. And, it's not just my own husband who feels this way. There are other married men who feel the same way. Most, I will admit, as far as the men I know personally, are from my own church. But, again, these are men who recognize the hypocrisy in saying they don't then doing it anyway... and they choose not to partake for the above mentioned reason. But then, there are some who are NOT members of my church who feel the same way. Granted, they are not as numerous as those who are "for" it, but they do exist, and they are not just men married to ladies on TAM.


Please send your Church's info to these guys:

All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph

Let's see if we can get someone who hasn't been infected by porn.


----------



## sparkyjim

Kobo said:


> Would it be better if he didn't watch porn but the only way he has sex with you is for you to dress up as a nun every night and he calls you by his old catholic school teachers name while only entering you anally, finishing in 20 seconds. IMO.



Take that quote out and you actually made some sense and said something compassionate in that previous post. But you couldn't contain it, could you...


----------



## AnnieAsh

sparkyjim said:


> My personal morals tell me that there is nothing wrong with using porn.
> 
> The research I have done has totally changed my thinking in regard to porn use because I have come to see that using porn is the worst thing that I can do for myself - especially if I want a committed satisfying relationship with a real woman.


I'm the same way. I don't have a moral objection to it. But I can see how it could interfere with a healthy relationship. 



Kobo said:


> Well your problem isn't porn or a man's "entitlement" to porn. That's a husband that has no concern for you. Would it be better if he didn't watch porn but the only way he has sex with you is for you to dress up as a nun every night and he calls you by his old catholic school teachers name while only entering you anally, finishing in 20 seconds. Wouldn't it be the same if you came to him wanting to have sex in way that you could also get enjoyment but he responded the same as you posted above. I haven't read all your stories but for most men the ultimate expression of love for their partner is with sex. If he isn't having sex with you I would say he's expressing to you that he has a very limited amount of love for you. IMO.


My husband does not derive emotional bonding from sex. I genuinely think that is a result of his overuse of pornography from about the age of 12. Sex has always been fun to him but it doesn't make him feel closer to the woman he is with. That makes me sad for him. He doesn't have a healthy view of what sex can be in a marriage. 

According to him, he loves me and this marriage is what he wants but "good God, woman, you will not control me!"

If he proposed anything REMOTELY kinky with me, I'd be down. I'm the one who comes up with the costumes, the roleplay, the public sex, the bjs, the videos, the pictures, the naughty stories, the sexting. But...porn just doesn't do it for me. The woman isn't always the prude, contrary to what some want to believe. 

Anyway, just a view point from the other side of the fence. I'm not frigid, controlling, angry, mean, fat, or ugly...so darn it I want a vigorous sex life.


----------



## Kobo

sparkyjim said:


> Take that quote out and you actually made some sense and said something compassionate in that previous post. But you couldn't contain it, could you...



couldn't contain what? Showing that the same issue could be in her relationship or any relationship without porn? Also this is a message board titled the Men's Clubhouse. Compassion is not required. Hell I posted an urban legend in the post above. This is what we do in the MC. Now give me your patch.


----------



## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> I'm the same way. I don't have a moral objection to it. But I can see how it could interfere with a healthy relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> My husband does not derive emotional bonding from sex. I genuinely think that is a result of his overuse of pornography from about the age of 12. Sex has always been fun to him but it doesn't make him feel closer to the woman he is with. That makes me sad for him. He doesn't have a healthy view of what sex can be in a marriage.
> 
> According to him, he loves me and this marriage is what he wants but "good God, woman, you will not control me!"
> 
> If he proposed anything REMOTELY kinky with me, I'd be down. I'm the one who comes up with the costumes, the roleplay, the public sex, the bjs, the videos, the pictures, the naughty stories, the sexting. But...porn just doesn't do it for me. The woman isn't always the prude, contrary to what some want to believe.
> 
> Anyway, just a view point from the other side of the fence. I'm not frigid, controlling, angry, mean, fat, or ugly...so darn it I want a vigorous sex life.


The nun scenario can be substituted for anything that doesn't give you pleasure. I don't see how you two are bonded if he truly doesn't connect through sex. Either way he's telling you where you stand to him. Are you listening?


----------



## sparkyjim

AnnieAsh said:


> According to him, he loves me and this marriage is what he wants but "good God, woman, you will not control me!"



Right, but the truth is that he should be giving all of his sexual energy to you. He would be happier, you would be happier. I hate to dangle that carrot though, because if there is one thing that is true, you cannot make anyone do anything. 

Even if it is good for him...


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> Please send your Church's info to these guys:
> 
> All men watch porn, scientists find - Telegraph
> 
> Let's see if we can get someone who hasn't been infected by porn.


 I said WATCH, not BEEN EXPOSED to it. There's a difference between the two, which I am sure you are capable of comprehending. I have read the article. And initially they were looking for those who had never been exposed to it. Very difficult to find any who haven't. It is everywhere, in some form. Often I can type in a search for something specific and porn links will come up. Or, you click on a link for something and porn is advertised on the side. Trust me, I know it's difficult for someone to go through life without being exposed to it.

But, as I said, there is a DIFFERENCE between exposed and watching. You can be exposed to something with a glance. You can be exposed to it and view it for an hour... a day.. a week... etc. But then, at some point, you no longer watch, for whatever reason. They are not watching it any longer at that point. But they did, or they at least saw it in passing. And, if they saw it in passing, it would still count as "watching" it. So, yes, I still stand by what I said. They don't all WATCH it... but some may have been EXPOSED to it, just as the article stated.

From the article:


> Researchers were conducting a study comparing the views of men in their 20s *who had never been exposed to pornography* with regular users.
> 
> But their project stumbled at the first hurdle when they *failed to find a single man who had not been seen it*.
> 
> “We started our research seeking men in their 20s *who had never consumed pornography*,” said Professor Simon Louis Lajeunesse. “We couldn't find any.”


So, as I said, many have SEEN it, but I guarantee there are some who, even after seeing it, no longer view any of it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Kobo said:


> The nun scenario can be substituted for anything that doesn't give you pleasure. I don't see how you two are bonded if he truly doesn't connect through sex. Either way he's telling you where you stand to him. Are you listening?


He feels the most bonded through RC (recreational companionship) and Acts of Service. When I plan dates and we go out alone. He feels loved when I do for him but the act of PIV doesn't bring him closer. I actually asked him this after reading a post about sexless marriages. The men were saying they felt closest to their wives during sex. I showed it to him and he shook his head and said no, not him. 

He loves sitting in our hot tub with me, drinking a beer. Go figure. That's when he loves me the most.


----------



## RandomDude

Well sure ok, for HD women it's obvious that porn usage is bad.
But how about LD women? Men in sexless marriages? How are they to find their release?


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> I'm the same way. I don't have a moral objection to it. But I can see how it could interfere with a healthy relationship.


Porn does nothing of the sort.

*His choices* in how to utilize it and how that impacts the relationship, on the other hand....



> My husband does not derive emotional bonding from sex. I genuinely think that is a result of his overuse of pornography from about the age of 12.


Change the prefix "over-" to "mis-" and I might agree with you.

In one form or another (counting Playboy and such as "porn,") I've been fairly regularly consuming it since about 11/12 (so, in the neighborhood of 30 years), yet still find sex with my wife to be far better and more appealing than porn. That doesn't mean I don't still enjoy seeing hot naked people, possibly having sex. But, it's no more a real and accurate portrayal of sex than, say, _CSI_ is a real and accurate portrayal of police forensics.

I think you'll find that most of us who enjoy it have a realistic understanding of what it is and its place in the world and our lives. And, those of us who fit that bill get that it's not everyone's cuppa. And we don't begrudge them that. Just as porn doesn't do I for you, by way of example, country music does nothing for me, entertainment-wise. But, the stigma, mystique and inordinate power that some ascribe to porn because it is naked people having sex seems to distort the perspectives of those who empower it in that way.

And, by that token, the view of the negative impacts attributed to porn are likewise distorted in a venue such as this, as posts tend to be made regarding problems, not, "Everyhing's cool!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparkyjim

RandomDude said:


> Well sure ok, for HD women it's obvious that porn usage is bad.
> But how about LD women? Men in sexless marriages? How are they to find their release?


By dealing with the issue head on. Getting marriage counseling or getting a divorce.

At least you can say that you are actually doing something about it.


----------



## gbrad

Simple answer; because we are. It is just an easy to way to help out when you want to take care of things quickly.


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson said:


> Porn does nothing of the sort.




Ahhh, but it does...

When young men are wanting to pull out so they can orgasm on their partners faces do you think their perceptions are not distorted?

I was sexually active in my teens and this one would have never occurred to me because I had never seen it before, but nowadays every young man who has a computer has seen this.

By the way, I am not saying that is a bad thing, per se, I am just saying that porn does indeed interfere with healthy relationships - or in the least - healthy perceptions of relationships.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> Porn does nothing of the sort.
> 
> *His choices* in how to utilize it and how that impacts the relationship, on the other hand....
> 
> 
> 
> Change the prefix "over-" to "mis-" and I might agree with you.
> 
> In one form or another (counting Playboy and such as "porn,") I've been fairly regularly consuming it since about 11/12 (so, in the neighborhood of 30 years), yet still find sex with my wife to be far better and more appealing than porn. That doesn't mean I don't still enjoy seeing hot naked people, possibly having sex. But, it's no more a real and accurate portrayal of sex than, say, _CSI_ is a real and accurate portrayal of police forensics.
> 
> I think you'll find that most of us who enjoy it have a realistic understanding of what it is and its place in the world and our lives. And, those of us who fit that bill get that it's not everyone's cuppa. And we don't begrudge them that. Just as porn doesn't do I for you, by way of example, country music does nothing for me, entertainment-wise. But, the stigma, mystique and inordinate power that some ascribe to porn because it is naked people having sex seems to distort the perspectives of those who empower it in that way.
> 
> And, by that token, the view of the negative impacts attributed to porn are likewise distorted in a venue such as this, as posts tend to be made regarding problems, not, "Everyhing's cool!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again...it comes down to a matter of attraction. Does a man want his wife to be attracted to him? Would you find it controlling if a woman asked her husband to diet because he's developed a Buddha belly? I wouldn't. My husband asked me to start wearing my hair long. It is a pain to get it done every month and it costs $200+ every time but I oblige. I want him to think I am sexy. 

My husband's habit is the most extreme I've come across on this site. He's completely warped his perceptions of sex and women. Makes me feel like a freak.


----------



## mablenc

I think that if its hurting your relationship your going to have to choose. If you are addicted to it, if you don't have sex with your wife because of it, if you start disrespecting her by treating her bad and comparing her to what you see or if she is just not comfortable then you should pick. You may be entitled to porn but she deserves respect and in a marriage she should be priority over your porn. Just MHO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparkyjim

AnnieAsh said:


> My husband's habit is the most extreme I've come across on this site. He's completely warped his perceptions of sex and women. Makes me feel like a freak.



Honestly? Mine was probably worse at one time... just saying... but it is not now. It took me a while - but I got there.

Why do you continue to accept it?


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> Ahhh, but it does...
> 
> When young men are wanting to pull out so they can orgasm on their partners faces do you think their perceptions are not distorted?
> 
> I was sexually active in my teens and this one would have never occurred to me because I had never seen it before, but nowadays every young man who has a computer has seen this.
> 
> By the way, I am not saying that is a bad thing, per se, I am just saying that porn does indeed interfere with healthy relationships - or in the least - healthy perceptions of relationships.


Porn doesn't do that. Porn is a genre of media.

Now...if you want to tell me that *those guys' choices* to utilize a form of entertainment as a source of education and training distort their perceptions? I'll be right there with you. Because, likewise, someone who uses a season box set of _House _as medical training will have distorted perceptions, as well.

So, no...porn does not interfere with healthy relationships or healthy perceptions of relationships. The choices of people who misuse it and misapply it interfere.


----------



## AnnieAsh

sparkyjim said:


> Honestly? Mine was probably worse at one time... just saying... but it is not now. It took me a while - but I got there.
> 
> Why do you continue to accept it?


He's at about 15 hrs a week on porn. It is not unlike him to spend an entire day in front of the computer if I am out of the house. I don't know how to help him. 

What choice do I have? I love him, though that is rapidly dwindling. But we still have a whole life together. Besides, people scoff at the idea of a woman breaking up her family over porn.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Again...it comes down to a matter of attraction. Does a man want his wife to be attracted to him? Would you find it controlling if a woman asked her husband to diet because he's developed a Buddha belly? I wouldn't. My husband asked me to start wearing my hair long. It is a pain to get it done every month and it costs $200+ every time but I oblige. I want him to think I am sexy.


I'd have to say that I see a distinction between a potential health issue (the weight) and imposition of control over what forms and genres of entertainment one's partner experiences.

Case in point: I've been a comics fan "formally" (that is...following series and creators as opposed to just picking up random books) since the age of about 9 or 10. When we were engaged, my MIL asked my wife if she was going to "make me" stop reading comics once we got married. My wife just looked at her, stunned, responding that it's part of what makes me who I am, while my MIL felt that it was time and money wasted. For the period of about 4 years, my wife was out of work, and my trips to the comic store were cut back, as the money was needed elsewhere. It's a matter of maintaining perspective. And the same applies to viewing porn.

Another good example, borrowing from your own: hair. My wife often mentions wanting to change her hairstyle, but will ask my opinion and if I think she should (cut it short/grow it out more/change the color/etc). I give her my opinion based on my tastes...I give her my opinion based on how she's responded to similar styles in the past...but tell her that, ultimately, it's up to her, because it's her hair.



> My husband's habit is the most extreme I've come across on this site. He's completely warped his perceptions of sex and women. Makes me feel like a freak.


While that's horrible to hear, you've very astutely pinpointed the issue when you say that *he's* completely warped his perceptions of sex and women.


----------



## Thundarr

Men and women are both equally entitled to watch porn and their spouses are entitled to set boundaries that they will tolerate and maybe even leave them. If porn is a show stopper then a spouse has every right to make an ultimatum and the offending spouse has every right to say I choose porn over them.

The big problem are the ones who hide and watch it and don't tell their spouses and don't have sex with their spouse as often as the spouse would like because of it. The ones who are found out later because they were embarrassed especially if they are addicted to it. Many of the "you can't tell me what to do" guys at TAM are porn addicts.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> He's at about 15 hrs a week on porn. It is not unlike him to spend an entire day in front of the computer if I am out of the house. I don't know how to help him.
> 
> What choice do I have? I love him, though that is rapidly dwindling. But we still have a whole life together. Besides, people scoff at the idea of a woman breaking up her family over porn.


If he's indulging in it to the detriment of the relationship...ignoring you and turning down sex for it, I'll be the first in line to smack him upside the head for making poor choices. OK...I'd probably have to take the #2 slot behind you, and rightly so.

But, what I mean in some of my other posts by genre of entertainment, let me put it this way: All thing equal...if he isn't/wasn't turning you down in favor of viewing porn, and everything else that needs to get done in life is getting done...what's the problem with entertainment in down time? Would you be equally ready to condemn, say, super-hero movies if he spent 12-15 hours watching all of the Marvel movies preparing for this week's release of _Iron Man 3_? Or would you assign blame for any perceived problem where it lies: with him?

As to your last question, in the final analysis, if you reached that last straw, you wouldn't be "breaking up your family over porn," you'd be ending your marriage due to his inconsiderate behavior.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> If he's indulging in it to the detriment of the relationship...ignoring you and turning down sex for it, I'll be the first in line to smack him upside the head for making poor choices. OK...I'd probably have to take the #2 slot behind you, and rightly so.
> 
> But, what I mean in some of my other posts by genre of entertainment, let me put it this way: All thing equal...if he isn't/wasn't turning you down in favor of viewing porn, and everything else that needs to get done in life is getting done...what's the problem with entertainment in down time? Would you be equally ready to condemn, say, super-hero movies if he spent 12-15 hours watching all of the Marvel movies preparing for this week's release of _Iron Man 3_? Or would you assign blame for any perceived problem where it lies: with him?
> 
> As to your last question, in the final analysis, if you reached that last straw, you wouldn't be "breaking up your family over porn," you'd be ending your marriage due to his inconsiderate behavior.


Watching marvel movies for a week isn't as destructive as watching hours upon hours of porn for years of your life. If we were talking about him playing Starcraft for 4 to 5 hours a day and missing sleep and sex and family time, I'd say the same thing I do about porn. 

This is how I know it is destroying him. My husband is in federal LE. It is not uncommon for him to work undercover, as in plain clothes, staking out a house. He has admitted to watching porn on his phone, in the car. He could have been popped in the head by the coyotes he was supposed to be surveilling. He could have been caught by his field supervisor and FIRED. He's watched it in a parking lot, coming home 3 hours late. I was calling his station and phone wondering if my husband was dead in the river or hurt. No, he got caught up in the porn. He loses hours a day doing this. 

Entertainment in your downtime should not interfere with your family, interfere with your sex life, risk your job or your health. Period. 

Come pop him for me. I'd welcome it. Inconsiderate behavior is leaving your socks on the floor or peeing on the toilet seat. This goes way beyond inconsiderate.


----------



## Wiserforit

I don't think women should be able to read romance novels without my permission. 

Or watch television programs with guys I am jealous of. 

Or speak to people I find threatening.

Or speak at all. (1 corinthians 14:34)

Or pee. 

Peeing objectifies toilets.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Watching marvel movies for a week isn't as destructive as watching hours upon hours of porn for years of your life. If we were talking about him playing Starcraft for 4 to 5 hours a day and missing sleep and sex and family time, I'd say the same thing I do about porn.


While I appreciate your consistency, I'd say you'd be just as inaccurate. It wouldn't be the game causing the problem, it would be him and his choices.



> This is how I know it is destroying him. My husband is in federal LE. It is not uncommon for him to work undercover, as in plain clothes, staking out a house. He has admitted to watching porn on his phone, in the car. He could have been popped in the head by the coyotes he was supposed to be surveilling. He could have been caught by his field supervisor and FIRED. He's watched it in a parking lot, coming home 3 hours late. I was calling his station and phone wondering if my husband was dead in the river or hurt. No, he got caught up in the porn. He loses hours a day doing this.
> 
> *Entertainment in your downtime should not interfere with your family, interfere with your sex life, risk your job or your health. Period.*


Believe it or not, I agree. But, where you see the object of his actions as the cause, I see the reverse: it's his actions that are the cause.



> Come pop him for me. I'd welcome it. Inconsiderate behavior is leaving your socks on the floor or peeing on the toilet seat. This goes way beyond inconsiderate.


Best word I could think of at the time, but, again - believe it or not - I agree. I just disagree that it's the media he chooses that's the genuine problem. It's the choices themselves. But, it's often easier to point the finger at the object of the choices - in this case, porn - because, even when we're the most fed up with how we're being treated by our partner, it's still our natural instinct to lessen the impact...to place the blame anywhere but on our partner.


----------



## EleGirl

Maybe women would benefit from starting to watch porn for hours a week and masterbating to it. Just do not hide it. Let the husband see that this is what they are doing.

When he wants sex, just tell him that you already took care of it watching the porn hunks... then maybe they would get it.

Porn use matters when a man is refusing to spend time with his wife.. but has time for porn. It matters when his is refusing sex with his wife because he prefers porn.

I could care less about my husband using porn if my needs are being met. If my needs are not being met I care.


----------



## Grayson

EleGirl said:


> Maybe women would benefit from starting to watch porn for hours a week and masterbating to it. Just do not hide it. Let the husband see that this is what they are doing.
> 
> When he wants sex, just tell him that you already took care of it watching the porn hunks... then maybe they would get it.
> 
> Porn use matters when a man is refusing to spend time with his wife.. but has time for porn. It matters when his is refusing sex with his wife because he prefers porn.
> 
> I could care less about my husband using porn if my needs are being met. If my needs are not being met I care.


I think you'll find that most of us who enjoy porn would agree with you. If someone's use of it doesn't interfere, there's no issue. If it does interfere, there is.

There's no denying that there are those who misuse it and do neglect their spouse in favor of indulging themselves. And, in a forum such as TAM, that can certainly appear to be the prevalent model. I'd never advocate someone ignoring their spouse and his/her needs in favor of porn. Or comics. Or movies. Or sitcoms. Or games. Or sports. Or...well...you get the idea. I can't say that I know of anyone who would.


----------



## EleGirl

Grayson said:


> I think you'll find that most of us who enjoy porn would agree with you. If someone's use of it doesn't interfere, there's no issue. If it does interfere, there is.
> 
> There's no denying that there are those who misuse it and do neglect their spouse in favor of indulging themselves. And, in a forum such as TAM, that can certainly appear to be the prevalent model. I'd never advocate someone ignoring their spouse and his/her needs in favor of porn. Or comics. Or movies. Or sitcoms. Or games. Or sports. Or...well...you get the idea. I can't say that I know of anyone who would.


My bet is that you do know some people who do misuse porn and other things and ignore their spouse due to this. Most people do not go public with what goes on behind closed doors in their homes.

I do know people who do this. I was married to one. Note the past tense.


----------



## Grayson

EleGirl said:


> My bet is that you do know some people who do misuse porn and other things and ignore their spouse due to this. Most people do not go public with what goes on behind closed doors in their homes.
> 
> I do know people who do this. I was married to one. Note the past tense.


I believe you misunderstood. I was saying that I don't know of anyone who would advocate such behavior.

As noted, I don't deny the existence of individuals who misuse porn (or any other form of entertainment) at the repeated expense of time, energy and attention directed at their partner. I do, however, believe that they don't represent the majority of those entertainment forms' audiences nor do I feel that those non-living forms of entertainment are the cause. Rather, they are the focus of someone who is opting to neglect their partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> While I appreciate your consistency, I'd say you'd be just as inaccurate. It wouldn't be the game causing the problem, it would be him and his choices.
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, I agree. But, where you see the object of his actions as the cause, I see the reverse: it's his actions that are the cause.
> 
> 
> 
> Best word I could think of at the time, but, again - believe it or not - I agree. I just disagree that it's the media he chooses that's the genuine problem. It's the choices themselves. But, it's often easier to point the finger at the object of the choices - in this case, porn - because, even when we're the most fed up with how we're being treated by our partner, it's still our natural instinct to lessen the impact...to place the blame anywhere but on our partner.


Huh? Err...no. I've stated a few times that I am rather ambivalent about porn itself. Why would I blame porn for my husband's actions? Of course I blame him. So he has a problem and my solution is to cut it out of my marriage but oh noes! I'm being a mean controlling witch! How could I possibly win? Either, a woman has to shut up and take it or get labeled as frigid, controlling, prudish, angry, mean. Seems a little unfair. 

If he were an alcoholic, my solution would be to cut out the alcohol. Does that mean I am taking away his entertainment choice? Or asking him to participate in a healthy marriage?


----------



## wnycontractor

Why do you think they are not?

This reminds me of the "have every right" cliche. 

Marriage isn't ownership and a sense of entitlement and controlling behavior are both problematic


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson, you make some very good points, and I'm sure that you have a good handle on the use of porn.

But to call porn use "entertainment" makes it seem like a harmless choice.

The fact is that porn can be used as a substitute for healthy sex. In fact, that is what the current research shows - that men use porn as a substitute. Well that's like using codeine as a substitute for aspirin. You might not get hooked if you make good choices but you are way more likely to get hooked, because the research shows that porn use releases into the brain the same chemicals that cocaine mimics. Well, to be fair so does sex, the difference maker here is the other effect - that of bonding. When a man orgasms with his partner he bonds with her. When it's with porn it's with - I don't know - his computer?

And nowadays there is an unending variety. The "newness" can be stoked at the click of a button. And because no one wife can compete with unending newness husbands can be more drawn to the porn than they are to their wives.

When I started this thread I had my own feelings about porn, to be sure. I also used to be on the other side of the spectrum, but my research into the subject changed my way of thinking.

But when I started this thread it was in response to reading for the umpteenth time about how yet another wife has asked her husband not to use porn, and how he feels that he has an entitlement to it. And then again to hear, for the umpteenth time, the same old worn out excuses, like it's because she is insecure, or it's because she is low desire. I have heard those excuses a thousand times. I even used the low desire excuse at one time in my life.

Anyways, the point is clear. Men do think that they are entitled to do whatever they want. And the opposite point is also true. Women accept that kind of behavior. Kind of a pessimistic view point I guess.

As for me, my studies and my research has brought me to the point in my life where I know that porn has a harmful affect on me and on my relationships. I suppose I am entitled to use it if I want, just as I am entitled to eat 10 pounds of bacon everyday if I want, smoke six packs of cigarettes, drink beer until I drop, balloon up to 600 pounds... It's my life I am entitled to do whatever I want.

But if I want to be truly healthy I won't do any of those things, and, for me, porn has become one of those unhealthy things I know that I should avoid.


----------



## RandomDude

sparkyjim said:


> By dealing with the issue head on. Getting marriage counseling or getting a divorce.
> 
> At least you can say that you are actually doing something about it.


Both of which takes time - and are they to starve themselves in the meantime? Or load up some porn for some quick release so they can get on with their lives?

Sure, they have to be proactive when it comes to dealing with these issues, but for their current circumstances I don't see why they shouldn't be entitled to porn usage if they are being denied sexual release from their spouse. I take this both ways, both men and women should be allowed to masturbate, and porn just helps it along.

STBX watched porn when I wasn't available, I didn't care, even encouraged it to get her off my back! She did get p-ssed if I watched porn however, even if it's due to a drought thanks to a fight! Or when I'm just physically spent but not sexually, and she WAS demanding! Like give me a fking break. Even during our fights; did my masturbation rob her of the satisfaction of "punishing me"? If so, TOO BAD 

I still don't get this whole debate about porn usage as long as one isn't using it and neglecting his/her partner in the meantime.


----------



## sparkyjim

RandomDude said:


> Or load up some porn for some quick release so they can get on with their lives?




Or take some drugs so that they can avoid caring about the situation.

Or live in a life of denial so that they don't have to do anything about it.

Or have an affair so that they can meet their own needs and get by in an unhappy union for yet another day.



It's your life to live. I'm not telling you what to do about that.

I am only saying that using an unhappy marriage as an excuse for indulging in something that enables you not to do anything about your unhappy marriage is not a practical reason to indulge.

The only way to make a change is to embrace the pain that often comes with change. Using porn is just another way to medicate against the pain, and avoid change.


----------



## sparkyjim

It's an ongoing theme...

"I don't see the harm with porn as long as it is not harming my partner.."


My point is that I started to see how porn was harming me...

And my partner helped me to see that I was not aware of the ways in which my porn use was harming her.

I guess you won't know if you don't ask. And you still won't know if they don't truly tell you how they feel about it.


It's just that there is a better way. Giving yourself 100 % sexually to your partner is going to cause something to happen. It has to. Things might improve, things might get worse, but there will be change.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Kobo said:


> Yeah, that wasn't part of negotiations. No one has asked you to stop. Men just wish that when you found that bigger and better deal they didn't have to supplement your income.


No man has ever had to supplement my income, thank you very much.


----------



## Snow cherry

Me and my H are in the minority of not watching porn ever. I do think it's harmful and I think it's easy to get addicted to and can desensitize a person. I have no doubt that if I did watch it I would get turned on but the images would be burned into my memory and I don't want them there. I'd rather get turned on by my own thoughts.


----------



## Kobo

LouAnn Poovy said:


> No man has ever had to supplement my income, thank you very much.


That's good to know
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> I said WATCH, not BEEN EXPOSED to it.


uh yeah, which is why I posted "Let's see if we can get someone who hasn't been infected by porn"

I mean with all those men that are so against porn that you know they haven't been able to prevent one young man from viewing this filth?


----------



## Whenwillitend

I'm just curious in how many women complain about husband watching porn and at the same time have a sextoy that they use when their man is not around. So sick of the double standard......porn bad vibrator good. I think that if u as a woman has a sextoy (no problem with that) that she uses to get release on her own you can't complain if your man watches porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Kobo

sparkyjim said:


> It's an ongoing theme...
> 
> "I don't see the harm with porn as long as it is not harming my partner.."
> 
> 
> My point is that I started to see how porn was harming me...
> 
> And my partner helped me to see that I was not aware of the ways in which my porn use was harming her.
> 
> I guess you won't know if you don't ask. And you still won't know if they don't truly tell you how they feel about it.
> 
> 
> It's just that there is a better way. Giving yourself 100 % sexually to your partner is going to cause something to happen. It has to. Things might improve, things might get worse, but there will be change.


Kudo's to you if you can give yourself to your partner 100% sexually. I mean to not have any fantasies involving anyone else, or see a beautiful women and find yourself being turned on, or watching Navy SEALS run for your spank bank. Kudos my man.


----------



## SomedayDig

I have a couple thoughts (none of which are really important, but I just had some Pepsi and pork fried rice for breakfast) on this. First, maybe this thread with it's "provocative" title should have been placed in the Ladies Lounge. I mean, putting it in the Mens Clubhouse is just asking for backlash. Seriously. "Why do men think they're entitled to porn?" I don't know about any of the other guys or even guys who are addicted to it, but I would be hard pressed to feel "entitled" to porn. Entitled to eating fried rice for breakfast, maybe - but not porn.

Simply replace the word "porn" with the word "alcohol" or "marijuana". If you're hiding your use, then you probably have a problem and THAT is what causes your relationship to become unhealthy. It's the individual's behavior, not the internet or the stills or the plants. The individual.

As for my own personal use of porn, it's kind of funny. When I was flying all over the world and staying 20 nights a month in a hotel...I wasn't playing World of Warcraft ALL of that time, I can and do freely admit that.

But ~ I found that the porn I preferred was the stuff that Regret (my wife) and I made together. I could turn something on the internet, but I'd always find myself going back to the stuff WE made.

Anywho...I think another part of this issue is the puritanistic society we live in. It's waaaayyy too repressive. Funny how in countries where porn is accepted and pot is accepted, they really don't have problems with the stuff.


----------



## Deejo

So ...

There really is no question here. Just a very, very, loaded indictment.

And a bunch of arguing.

I'm going to make a suggestion to the OP. Your thread would be much more effective if you chose to spell out how it impacted YOU, and your partner. The damage it caused. How you responded, how she responded and what your 'research' consisted of ... how you weaned yourself off, and the benefits you derived from choosing to end this practice.

Else, this just looks like accusation and prosyletizing.

The way you chose to name your thread is unfortunate. 
It's adversarial right out of the gate and doesn't sound like you're much interested in a discussion at all.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Huh? Err...no. I've stated a few times that I am rather ambivalent about porn itself. Why would I blame porn for my husband's actions? Of course I blame him. So he has a problem and my solution is to cut it out of my marriage but oh noes! I'm being a mean controlling witch! How could I possibly win? Either, a woman has to shut up and take it or get labeled as frigid, controlling, prudish, angry, mean. Seems a little unfair.
> 
> If he were an alcoholic, my solution would be to cut out the alcohol. Does that mean I am taking away his entertainment choice? Or asking him to participate in a healthy marriage?


Apples and oranges. Alcohol introduces a foreign chemical mix to the system that can, if left unchecked, create a physical dependency and, in extreme cases, lead to damage to internal organs, alcohol poisoning and death. Not so with porn (or any other form of media, for that matter). That's no to say that use of media can't become compulsive, as the user develops a habit ("Hey...the news just ended. Time to check out some porn.") and somewhat ritualized. That's a matter of conditioned behavior as opposed to a physical dependency.

A closer analogy would be if, say, he habitually watched, say, the multiple-hour block of _The Big Bang Theory_ reruns on TBS each night, and you told him, as a result, that he could no longer watch sitcoms.

Now, please note that I've consistently agreed that anyone who ignores their partner in favor of porn (or any other pastime) is in the wrong for doing so. And, I've never claimed that, under such circumstances, removing the object of the behavior should be out of the question. When doing so, however, I think it's important to remember that that object isn't the source of the problem, and unless that source - whatever it is inside that partner that's leading them to retreat from their partner - is addressed, removing that object won't do any good. Remove the porn, and it could be that video game. Remove that game, and it could become model trains, or watching sports, or hanging out with the guys, or any one of countless other possibilities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lordhavok

I look at porn daily, but I dont masturbate to it, my sexual energy is for my wife. When you ladies are talking about porn use, is this what you mean? Your man is jerking it to porn on the computer and not taking care of you? What if he was taking care of you, would you still be pissy about it?


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> uh yeah, which is why I posted "Let's see if we can get someone who hasn't been infected by porn"
> 
> I mean with all those men that are so against porn that you know they haven't been able to prevent one young man from viewing this filth?


Well, I think I said it in this tread already...maybe it was a different one? There have been many times I have done a search for something. I click on the link. And there are times when a page pops up, full of naked or half naked women. Yes, I have a pop-up blocker. There are times when they get past it anyway. I didn't go searching for it. But it still got there. Same thing with many other people. 

My 15 year old nephew is one who is right on the edge between having been exposed and not. He is one of the rare young men who, when a woman is scantily clad, he will avert his eyes. This includes women at the beach, in bikinis. He will look at the ground, his own feet, etc, rather than look at a woman who is not covered up more. My 12 year old son, right now, is the same way. 

But with various advertisements which depict scantily clad women, that's right on the edge. Think about it. Porn "way back when" was essentially what women wear to the beach now. And even that, my son and nephew avoid looking at, as much as possible. I don't have a problem with bikinis... as long as it actually has some real material covering the body. IOW, breasts well-supported and the bottom COVERS both front and back... no ass cheeks showing. But that's my opinion. I can't choose what others call clothing. 

But I can honestly tell you that I am proud of both my nephew and my son. Maybe that won't stay with them. But maybe it will. My son could grow up to be a lot like his dad. My husband is one who will fast forward through sex scenes in movies. Why? Because they are unnecessary parts of the movies.

So, if you know a way to keep people from seeing even the tiniest glimpse of porn, or even scantily clad men/women, I'm all ears. Until then, nearly everyone gets at least a small amount of exposure to it.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> Grayson, you make some very good points, and I'm sure that you have a good handle on the use of porn.
> 
> But to call porn use "entertainment" makes it seem like a harmless choice.


Sorry if you feel that calling a genre of media entertainment what it is is inappropriate. Not much I can do abou that.



> The fact is that porn can be used as a substitute for healthy sex. In fact, that is what the current research shows - that men use porn as a substitute. Well that's like using codeine as a substitute for aspirin. You might not get hooked if you make good choices but you are way more likely to get hooked, because the research shows that porn use releases into the brain the same chemicals that cocaine mimics. Well, to be fair so does sex, the difference maker here is the other effect - that of bonding. When a man orgasms with his partner he bonds with her. When it's with porn it's with - I don't know - his computer?


Porn itself, in fact, releases nothing into the brain. That chemical release is a learned response to stimuli affecting the pleasure centers of the brain. And, please note that I've never disputed (in fact, have acknowledged) that the use of any form of media or entertainment can become habitual, chronic and/or ritualized to receive that rush. But, if we remove all forms of media or recreational activity that can result in such behavior...well...what's left?



> And nowadays there is an unending variety. The "newness" can be stoked at the click of a button. And because no one wife can compete with unending newness husbands can be more drawn to the porn than they are to their wives.


I think you assume an inherent, inevitable, universal result that isn't...you assume that such comparison is taking place. I don't make such an assumption. I no more "compare" my wife to women in porn (or, for that matter, to women I find attractive in mainstream media) than I compare my doctor to Gregory House, high school show choirs to _Glee_'s New Directions, etc. Why, if I assumed entertainment media was to be used as a baseline for reality, I'd think that Las Vegas was continually experiencing heavy rains thanks to _CSI_.



> When I started this thread I had my own feelings about porn, to be sure. I also used to be on the other side of the spectrum, but my research into the subject changed my way of thinking.
> 
> But when I started this thread it was in response to reading for the umpteenth time about how yet another wife has asked her husband not to use porn, and how he feels that he has an entitlement to it. And then again to hear, for the umpteenth time, the same old worn out excuses, like it's because she is insecure, or it's because she is low desire. I have heard those excuses a thousand times. I even used the low desire excuse at one time in my life.


I'll agree that one size does not fit all. When responding to threads such as you describe, I attempt to take the information and scenario as presented into consideration. As I've said, I agree that there are those who misuse porn to the detriment of their relationship. At the same time, however, I also see situations where it isn't, but it's one partner's views of the genre that cause them to see a problem of neglect where there isn't one. And there are degrees in between, as well. Ice said it before, but in a forum such as TAM, the odds are stacked in favor of posts relating a problem. We all bring our own personal experiences to the table, so I think the reason you see the same "excuses" as you call them is that those of us with a realistic handle on what porn is and how it fits into life form the majority of those who view it, and as such, when the genre is portrayed as having more power than it truly does, we step in, introduce an alternative viewpoint as a "just maybe" for consideration, only to then see the thread derail into the same ol' "porn's inherently evil"/"no it's not" back and forth and *both* sides then overcompensate in the exchange, ultimately getting nowhere.



> Anyways, the point is clear. Men do think that they are entitled to do whatever they want. And the opposite point is also true. Women accept that kind of behavior. Kind of a pessimistic view point I guess.


Replace the words "men" and "women" with the phrase "some people," and I'll agree with you 100%.



> As for me, my studies and my research has brought me to the point in my life where I know that porn has a harmful affect on me and on my relationships. I suppose I am entitled to use it if I want, just as I am entitled to eat 10 pounds of bacon everyday if I want, smoke six packs of cigarettes, drink beer until I drop, balloon up to 600 pounds... It's my life I am entitled to do whatever I want.
> 
> But if I want to be truly healthy I won't do any of those things, and, for me, porn has become one of those unhealthy things I know that I should avoid.


You compare apples and oranges by comparing a form of media with material that is directly ingested and impacts your biology directly. But, you've identified how your behaviors and personality can be impacted by other activities. You're self-aware enough to know that you're prone to or when you would be misusing one (or more) forms of entertainment, have taken appropriate action,, and are to be commended for that. I think you'll find that most of us fit that description, as well. Due to the nature of TAM, we tend to hear about those that don't here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## okeydokie

The only reason I look at it is because I have nothing else. I would certainly prefer my wife, but she isn't going to decide for me that my desires are done


----------



## ocotillo

Maricha75 said:


> But with various advertisements which depict scantily clad women, that's right on the edge. Think about it. Porn "way back when" was essentially what women wear to the beach now.


That would have been public indecency. Pornography has always been the written or visual depiction of a sexual act.


----------



## tulsy

sparkyjim said:


> My question is do men think that they should be *allowed* to watch porn - and why?


I don't look for permission from anyone to watch porn. 

Allowed to to watch porn??

Are you trying to be your husbands mother and treat him like a child? This is ridiculous....allowed! :rofl: 

BTW, my girlfriend and I often watch porn together. We enjoy it, it's not hurting anyone, and we certainly don't need permission to do so.


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## Maricha75

ocotillo said:


> That would have been public indecency. *Pornography has always been the written or visual depiction of a sexual act.*


If that's the case, then why do magazines like Playboy and Playgirl, as well as playing cards with just one naked person on each, get classified as pornography? I understand why erotica fits that category...that makes sense. But if we're going by ONLY the depiction of a sexual act, then Playboy and Playgirl and the like would just be... art. Sorry, I don't see that.


----------



## richie33

I think the defintion of porn is differs from one to the next. I tend to feel its acts of a sexual nature. Someone posted they wouldn't want their child to look at porn but is ok with them seeing naked bodies. Where would you see a naked body as a young man / woman? R rated movie or say Playboy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ocotillo

Maricha75 said:


> If that's the case, then why do magazines like Playboy and Playgirl, as well as playing cards with just one naked person on each, get classified as pornography? I understand why erotica fits that category...that makes sense. But if we're going by ONLY the depiction of a sexual act, then Playboy and Playgirl and the like would just be... art. Sorry, I don't see that.


The 'line' can be subtle because the sexual depiction can include autoerotic acts and can even be implied via first person point of view as long as the behavior is frankly sexual. So while a nude female model standing at a window watching the sun set is probably just art, the same model reclining in a bed with her back arched in a position reminiscent of an orgasm would be pornographic 

'Playboy' does cross that line here and there as far as I know, while the Esquire and Maxim genre of magazines generally do not. (Again, as far as I know)

Many people do refuse to abide by the legal and linguistic definitions of the word and you get all kinds of silly things as a result, like beautiful landscapes being called, 'Earth porn.' You also hear oxymora like, 'Soft core pornography' coined to describe simple nudity. So the word does seem to be gradually morphing into a synonym for 'Erotic' in common speech.


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## Maricha75

ocotillo said:


> The 'line' can be subtle because the sexual depiction can include autoerotic acts and can even be implied via first person point of view as long as the behavior is frankly sexual. So while a nude female model standing at a window watching the sun set is probably just art, the same model reclining in a bed with her back arched in a position reminiscent of an orgasm would be pornographic
> 
> 'Playboy' does cross that line here and there as far as I know, while the Esquire and Maxim genre of magazines generally do not. (Again, as far as I know)
> 
> Many people do refuse to abide by the legal and linguistic definitions of the word and you get all kinds of silly things as a result, like beautiful landscapes being called, 'Earth porn.' You also hear oxymora like, 'Soft core pornography' coined to describe simple nudity. So the word does seem to be gradually morphing into a synonym for 'Erotic' in common speech.


Thanks for clarifying. Honestly, I think everyone has their own definition of what is pornographic and what is not. For instance, IF my husband and I chose to take pics of each other, or video of ourselves having sex, and it was SOLELY for our own eyes, I don't see that as pornographic... for us. However, if either of us were to distribute it in any way, be it free or for money, then I would say it was porn. I know there are others who would disagree with my definition, though, which is fine. I guess it has more to do with each individual's comfort level? 

Which brings me to a question for sparkyjim (OP): How do you qualify, for yourself, what is or is not porn? Would you classify anything you and your partner make together (or even separately) for only yourselves to view as porn? Or is it only that which contains other people?

I also wouldn't put R rated movies or shows in pornography category, although we tend to skip over sex scenes more with the kids than without. I mean, if we are watching, say, Game of Thrones... There's a LOT of sex going on in most episodes, and definitely a lot of nudity. We don't watch it with our kids, but have watched some together as a couple. Often, we skipped the sex scenes. But occasionally, they have been so short that it wasn't even worth pushing the button to go forward.

Hmmm I guess it depends on the intent of the show/movie. If it has a decent (I know, subjective) plot, which can be continued, easily, without sex, then I'm cool with the show. If the intent is just to arouse/ get off, then no. And, as stated before, personal videos/pics that we may do only for each other, I do not see as porn... unless one of us chose to share with someone outside the marriage.


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## ET1SSJonota

Whenwillitend said:


> I'm just curious in how many women complain about husband watching porn and at the same time have a sextoy that they use when their man is not around. So sick of the double standard......porn bad vibrator good. I think that if u as a woman has a sextoy (no problem with that) that she uses to get release on her own you can't complain if your man watches porn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or Erotica + Vibrator. I honestly wouldn't care if I didn't get the sincere feeling it affects our sex life frequency and quality. I obviously can't hold a candle to the vibrator - and as time has gone on she has a harder and harder time "getting there" with me. Except with a toy, of course. If we haven't used one in a long time, it seems to take much less time.
I do believe the "usual" woman vs man watching porn is not on the same par due to drive differences. Either way, if partner A does not have their drive met, but partner B masturbates, I think that is taking away from partner A. At that point, there certainly shouldn't be any issues with partner A masturbating -not only on the idea of hypocrisy, but on a level of denial of desire.


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## OrangeCrush

Snow cherry said:


> Me and my H are in the minority of not watching porn ever. I do think it's harmful and I think it's easy to get addicted to and can desensitize a person. I have no doubt that if I did watch it I would get turned on but the images would be burned into my memory and I don't want them there. I'd rather get turned on by my own thoughts.


same here. I agree with the desensitization part, and also it just lessens my attraction to him if a partner of mine watches porn. It makes him less appealing and less desirable to me. I don't have to argue or justify that to anyone; it is what it is and so I chose to hold out for a guy who feels the same way. 

i'm not insecure about myself- I think I'm adorable, I'm satisfied with my body and how I look.  my problem with porn is when women are pictured as objects, and also i just think it's like...the equivalent of a pop-music boy band. cheap mass-produced entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and churned out for maximum profit. blah. 

also totally agree that getting turned on by my own thoughts is way better.


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## AnnieAsh

OrangeCrush said:


> same here. I agree with the desensitization part, and also it just lessens my attraction to him if a partner of mine watches porn. It makes him less appealing and less desirable to me. I don't have to argue or justify that to anyone; it is what it is and so I chose to hold out for a guy who feels the same way.
> 
> i'm not insecure about myself- I think I'm adorable, I'm satisfied with my body and how I look.  my problem with porn is when women are pictured as objects, and also i just think it's like...the equivalent of a pop-music boy band. cheap mass-produced entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and churned out for maximum profit. blah.
> 
> also totally agree that getting turned on by my own thoughts is way better.


Hey, she said what I said, only better! 

I tried holding out for a guy who didn't watch it and the one I got LIED to me. And to him, the ends justified the means because he was in love. I feel cheated out of the sex life I want. 

So now I am feeling entitled to find a man who CAN handle me and my appetites.


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## TiggyBlue

OrangeCrush said:


> same here. I agree with the desensitization part, and also it just lessens my attraction to him if a partner of mine watches porn. It makes him less appealing and less desirable to me. I don't have to argue or justify that to anyone; it is what it is and so I chose to hold out for a guy who feels the same way.
> 
> i'm not insecure about myself- I think I'm adorable, I'm satisfied with my body and how I look.  my problem with porn is when women are pictured as objects, and also i just think it's like...the equivalent of a pop-music boy band. cheap mass-produced entertainment designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator and churned out for maximum profit. blah.
> 
> also totally agree that getting turned on by my own thoughts is way better.


I have heard that from quite a few women, they lose attraction and desire to a partner who watches porn.
I'm for some Insecurity is the issue with being with someone who watches porn, but it's one of many not the only one.
Screaming their someone's insecure if they don't want to be with someone who watches porn seems like a common attempt to dismiss their reasons.


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. Honestly, I think everyone has their own definition of what is pornographic and what is not. For instance, IF my husband and I chose to take pics of each other, or video of ourselves having sex, and it was SOLELY for our own eyes, I don't see that as pornographic... for us. However, if either of us were to distribute it in any way, be it free or for money, then I would say it was porn. I know there are others who would disagree with my definition, though, which is fine. I guess it has more to do with each individual's comfort level?
> 
> Which brings me to a question for sparkyjim (OP): How do you qualify, for yourself, what is or is not porn? Would you classify anything you and your partner make together (or even separately) for only yourselves to view as porn? Or is it only that which contains other people?h
> 
> I also wouldn't put R rated movies or shows in pornography category, although we tend to skip over sex scenes more with the kids than without. I mean, if we are watching, say, Game of Thrones... There's a LOT of sex going on in most episodes, and definitely a lot of nudity. We don't watch it with our kids, but have watched some together as a couple. Often, we skipped the sex scenes. But occasionally, they have been so short that it wasn't even worth pushing the button to go forward.
> 
> Hmmm I guess it depends on the intent of the show/movie. If it has a decent (I know, subjective) plot, which can be continued, easily, without sex, then I'm cool with the show. If the intent is just to arouse/ get off, then no. And, as stated before, personal videos/pics that we may do only for each other, I do not see as porn... unless one of us chose to share with someone outside the marriage.


Thanks for the opening, Maricha, by mentioning Game of Thrones. Love the show, but in the context of this conversation, it brought to mind a verse of the song "I Was Confused (About the Television Set)" by the sadly long-defunct local band Ten Hands:

_I watched this show just the other night
And I must say something was not right
How come people on television's weird in the head?

Well, they won't show sex, but they show a lot of killin'
I guess it must be better to show blood spillin'
Than to let little Junior see two naked people in bed._
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

Lordhavok said:


> I look at porn daily, but I dont masturbate to it, my sexual energy is for my wife. When you ladies are talking about porn use, is this what you mean? Your man is jerking it to porn on the computer and not taking care of you? What if he was taking care of you, would you still be pissy about it?


He's watching it and masturbating. He does it so vigorously that I have found scabs on his penis and red, raw areas. He is not taking care of me, I'm getting about 50% of the sex and affection I crave. He cannot masturbate for 3 hours AND have sex with his wife. He just doesn't have the time or the energy. 

And to say that we get "pissy" is rather hurtful. I don't get pissy. I feel hurt, neglected, unloved, empty and resentful. I could walk outside, find a good looking dude and rock his world, but I CANNOT. Because I am married to a man who compulsively masturbates. 

He used to be the sexiest thing on 2 legs (Will Ferrell notwithstanding) and now I feel sorry for him.


----------



## OrangeCrush

AnnieAsh said:


> So now I am feeling entitled to find a man who CAN handle me and my appetites.


i don't think you would have any problems finding that! that sucks that he lied to you.  imho lots of guys would love to have a lady who has a sexual appetite!

edited to add: omg i agree with you Will Ferrell is gorgeous.  i also have a thing for Craig Ferguson even though he's old enough to be my father. (but i don't need to see either of them in a porn film- imagination is a wonderful thing.  )


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## Grayson

Is there another Will Farrell that I don't know about? Cuz the one I'm picturing...I don't see it. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OrangeCrush

Grayson said:


> Is there another Will Farrell that I don't know about? Cuz the one I'm picturing...I don't see it. ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


the cute Irish-looking dude who played the main character in Elf? sigh...only he could wear bright yellow tights and look uber sexy!


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## Deejo

OrangeCrush said:


> the cute Irish-looking dude who played the main character in Elf? sigh...only he could wear bright yellow tights and look uber sexy!


Off topic ... but intriguing.


----------



## Grayson

OrangeCrush said:


> the cute Irish-looking dude who played the main character in Elf? sigh...only he could wear bright yellow tights and look uber sexy!


That's the one I'm thinking of. Except I call him the "goofy looking obnoxious dude who plays the same annoying character over and over." ;-)

But, to each their own. But...somewhat back on topic...what if, say, Annie's husband came to her, knowing she finds him in second place (jokingly, I'm sure) to Ferrell and said, "Annie, I feel that more of your attraction is directed at Will Ferrell, so I don't want you to see his movies or watch his SNL reruns anymore."? (Annie, no trying to pick...it's just a great example dropped in my lap.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> What I also don't get, is if porn viewing is sooooo important to you guys, why don't you get divorced and find a woman who is into it just like you are? There are women like this out there. So instead of whining about how your wife is trying to "control you", why not dump her and find a woman who enjoys your particular sexual tastes?


Uhm... we're not the ones with the problem. You've got it backwards. We don't have to do a damn thing. She doesn't like the porn, she can gtfo. Virtually every guy is spanking to porn long before any woman came into his life... and he keeps right on spanking. Suddenly she's the wife and thinks she can change the terms. Get over it or find a guy who isn't into porn (good luck).



Faithful Wife said:


> Because the thing is, some of us women are just as likely to get super freaky as you men are...and when it is known and understood, men don't like the idea of it (their spouse randomly looking at anything they might want to) any more than women do.


lmfao... your husband maybe, otherwise I don't know what men you're talking about. I say kudos to the woman who's into porn. Awesome. Show me what turns you on babe. This is pretty much the opinion of every guy I know. Most of us would think its pretty awesome if our women were into porn.



Faithful Wife said:


> I guarantee though that some of your wives ARE doing just that. And the day you find out about it, you are going to be freaked out.


If "freaked out", means getting a lot freakier with our women, sure. :smthumbup:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*LittleDeer* said:


> Who said you get to make the rules. It's not your topic and it is on subject, you just don't like the way it's going, typical cake eater response.
> 
> You get porn to fulfil your "biological" urges and we women get to upgrade at the drop of a hat to fulfil ours.


lmfao... upgrade lady, upgrade. We can do it too.

Typical woman response to porn though... comparing "looking at" to "trading up". 

If a woman I'm with thinks she can do better than me, she should've started walking yesterday.


----------



## AnnieAsh

OrangeCrush said:


> i don't think you would have any problems finding that! that sucks that he lied to you.  imho lots of guys would love to have a lady who has a sexual appetite!
> 
> edited to add: omg i agree with you Will Ferrell is gorgeous.  i also have a thing for Craig Ferguson even though he's old enough to be my father. (but i don't need to see either of them in a porn film- imagination is a wonderful thing.  )


I knew someday I'd find another Will Ferrell lover! lol! I'm so happy. I think Craig Ferguson is pretty hot too. I looooove his accent. 



Grayson said:


> That's the one I'm thinking of. Except I call him the "goofy looking obnoxious dude who plays the same annoying character over and over." ;-)
> 
> But, to each their own. But...somewhat back on topic...what if, say, Annie's husband came to her, knowing she finds him in second place (jokingly, I'm sure) to Ferrell and said, "Annie, I feel that more of your attraction is directed at Will Ferrell, so I don't want you to see his movies or watch his SNL reruns anymore."? (Annie, no trying to pick...it's just a great example dropped in my lap.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Goofy guys are my specialty. 

I think that's a very good point you bring up. If my husband came to me and asked me to stop being Feral for Ferrell, I would have to. Not because he controls me, but because he is more important to me than Will. I want him to be happy and secure and feel like his wife puts his needs above others. Especially, if he said it made him feel less attracted me. I place a lot of value in my husband's attraction to me.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?
> 
> If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Why are you ashamed of it?
> 
> Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


Do you keep your dildo discreetly hidden in a drawer? Generally, yes. Do women typically whip these things out whenever they want with no care for concealment or embarrassment. No.

Masturbation is a personal act. An individuals personal fantasies are none of your business unless they want to share them.

Nice hostile cross though. As if whether someone is embarrassed of something dictates their right to do that thing or not.

Ladies, if you could take away the porn we'd still be jerking off to images of women in our heads. Seriously, you can't win this fight. The female imagery in our heads is likely to be of women we actually SEE in real life... you sure you want to make that trade? What are you going to tell us next? Don't masturbate?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> If a man is OPENLY watching porn and his wife has no issue with this, great. I'm all for that.


All of the men I know watch porn. Almost all of their wives have problems with it, ranging from mild annoyance to extreme jealousy. None of these guys have what I would call a problem with porn. Its occassional, concealed for the purposes of being discreet and non-offensive, and sometimes embarrassment at some of the freaky sh*t they're privately into.

As I've said before, my ex wife had a problem with a ton of things I liked to do. I guess I should have quite riding motorcycles and boxing too. 

Ladies: stop trying to CHANGE your men.


----------



## Sussieq

sparkyjim said:


> I have been lurking here for a while and I do write extensively on other forums.
> 
> It's a recurring theme - here and in other places - women don't want their men to watch porn, the men do. The other day I even saw an argument made by a guy that a wife who wanted to watch it with her hubby was intruding on his alone time!!!
> 
> Anyway, I'm no prude, but I am open minded and I have come to see that modern day porn is probably one of the most destructive things to come along. It can affect marriages, it can affect relationships, it can affect both sexes self esteem, it causes sexual dissatisfaction, it can even lead to ED and difficulty orgasming.
> 
> My question is do men think that they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?
> 
> _*EDIT NOTE : After seven pages of responses I realized that I could reword my question.
> 
> I meant to ask if men think that they are entitled to watch porn - even if his partner wishes that he would not.*_
> 
> My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.
> 
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


A man is "entitled" to watch anything he desires. The end.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> "...probably in fear of the response from their spouse."
> 
> And how is this healthy or mature?
> 
> If you fear your own spouse, why are you married to them?


Its normal conflict avoidance. You know she doesn't like it. You don't care that she doesn't like it, its none of her business what you jerk off too.

Those that hide it, generally do so just to avoid having to listen to her sh*t about it.

Wah wah wah... I think you desire pixels more than me. Wah wah wah. Oh show that confidence baby, you're really sexy now.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Do you keep your dildo discreetly hidden in a drawer? Generally, yes. Do women typically whip these things out whenever they want with no care for concealment or embarrassment. No.
> 
> Masturbation is a personal act. An individuals personal fantasies are none of your business unless they want to share them.
> 
> Nice hostile cross though. As if whether someone is embarrassed of something dictates their right to do that thing or not.
> 
> Ladies, if you could take away the porn we'd still be jerking off to images of women in our heads. Seriously, you can't win this fight. The female imagery in our heads is likely to be of women we actually SEE in real life... you sure you want to make that trade? What are you going to tell us next? Don't masturbate?


I don't think its a fight to win, just personal preferences.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> "At some point you just figure either I leave or I get my frustration under control with porn."
> 
> Why not just leave and find someone who is sexually compatible?
> 
> Sorry, I don't buy the whole "because we have kids" story.


You always put it on the men. She has the issue with what he's doing. Why doesn't she find someone who is sexually compatible.

A guy who doesn't watch porn is about as common as a woman that loves to in my experience.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its normal conflict avoidance. You know she doesn't like it. You don't care that she doesn't like it, its none of her business what you jerk off too.
> 
> Those that hide it, generally do so just to avoid having to listen to her sh*t about it.
> 
> Wah wah wah... I think you desire pixels more than me. Wah wah wah. Oh show that confidence baby, you're really sexy now.


I'm sorry if someone gets with someone who doesn't want to be with someone who watches porn then either by willing to give it up or find someone else.
They have been straight up about their feelings, by doing it in private you haven't. Either man/woman up and be honest or find someone else, no one get's has the right to dictate what kind of person they want to be with (vegetarian/religion/porn ect) as much as anyone get's to dictate how someone masturbates. Throwing insult's at someone who doesn't have the same view's as you sound's like a pathetic attempt to deflect someone's actions.

The partners actions is the problem it sounds mostly not the porn itself.


----------



## Sussieq

Faithful Wife said:


> So guys...if it is your "right", then why do you hide it at all?
> 
> If you weren't ashamed of it, you wouldn't hide it.
> 
> Why are you ashamed of it?
> 
> Please don't try to blame it on your mommy as for why you are ashamed.


The ones that hide are probably the ones who made some ridiculous agreement that they wouldn't watch it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> I don't think its a fight to win, just personal preferences.


These porn threads are always fights. Every single one of them I've seen.

The non-combative thing for women to say is "I'm not going to be with someone who watches porn." Good luck in the dating world because most guys watch porn. Tell him he can't or you'll leave and he'll probably hide it if he wants to keep you anyway.

Get real ladies. We can masturbate and we can look at whatever we damn well please while we do. If its not porn, its Women's Beach Volley ball. Get a grip and some security.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> These porn threads are always fights. Every single one of them I've seen.
> 
> The non-combative thing for women to say is "I'm not going to be with someone who watches porn." Good luck in the dating world because most guys watch porn. Tell him he can't or you'll leave and he'll probably hide it if he wants to keep you anyway.
> 
> Get real ladies. We can masturbate and we can look at whatever we damn well please while we do. If its not porn, its Women's Beach Volley ball. Get a grip and some security.


Personally I don't have a problem with porn (watch it myself).
I can understand some people do, everyone has different boundaries (porn/strip clubs/ open marriage) and it's not mine or anyone's place to dictate where these boundaries lie or assume why they have those boundaries (insecurity seems like the insult mostly thrown). 
You can't tell someone else what to do, only let someone else know where your boundaries lie. If they then decide to deceive their partner my hiding their actions that's all on them (not mummy or feeling controlled/repressed by getting with someone who was upfront from the get go).


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> These porn threads are always fights. Every single one of them I've seen.
> 
> The non-combative thing for women to say is "I'm not going to be with someone who watches porn." Good luck in the dating world because most guys watch porn. Tell him he can't or you'll leave and he'll probably hide it if he wants to keep you anyway.
> 
> Get real ladies. We can masturbate and we can look at whatever we damn well please while we do. If its not porn, its Women's Beach Volley ball. Get a grip and some security.


No one ever said you couldn't? I'm sure most women don't want to tell you what you can and can't do. I know I sure don't. I don't dictate anything to my husband. I'm not his mommy. If he chooses to do so, then I suppose I could choose to be appeased elsewhere just like him. 

If it decreases a woman's attraction to you...like say gaining 50 lbs would, you'd be ok with that?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> I'm sorry if someone gets with someone who doesn't want to be with someone who watches porn then either by willing to give it up or find someone else.
> They have been straight up about their feelings, by doing it in private you haven't. Either man/woman up and be honest or find someone else, no one get's has the right to dictate what kind of person they want to be with (vegetarian/religion/porn ect) as much as anyone get's to dictate how someone masturbates. Throwing insult's at someone who doesn't have the same view's as you sound's like a pathetic attempt to deflect someone's actions.
> 
> The partners actions is the problem it sounds mostly not the porn itself.


That's assuming its ever discussed. With many couples it doesn't come up. 

I'm always honest about it. I don't really care nor have embarrassment about it personally, but I don't go pulling up porn in anyone's face and its not like I'm gonna jump out with "hey, I like porn, if you have a problem with that you should go". 

Almost all guys watch porn. If a woman has a problem with a guy watching porn she has a problem with almost all guys. Why should the guy have to change to suit her?

If you really want to talk entitlement, I argue that women feel entitled to control sex.


----------



## TiggyBlue

[/QUOTE]


DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That's assuming its ever discussed. With many couples it doesn't come up.
> 
> I'm always honest about it. I don't really care nor have embarrassment about it personally, but I don't go pulling up porn in anyone's face and its not like I'm gonna jump out with "hey, I like porn, if you have a problem with that you should go".


Definitely, I mentioned that before if someone's with someone who watches porn and has been upfront then go find someone else, don't stay with them and resent them. 



> Almost all guys watch porn. If a woman has a problem with a guy watching porn she has a problem with almost all guys. Why should the guy have to change to suit her?


He shouldn't change to suit her, he/she just shouldn't start hiding it get pissed at the reactions when found out.



> If you really want to talk entitlement, I argue that women feel entitled to control sex.


Yh some do, as after reading this forum have learned some men do too.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> These porn threads are always fights. Every single one of them I've seen.
> 
> The non-combative thing for women to say is "I'm not going to be with someone who watches porn." Good luck in the dating world because most guys watch porn. Tell him he can't or you'll leave and he'll probably hide it if he wants to keep you anyway.
> 
> Get real ladies. We can masturbate and we can look at whatever we damn well please while we do. If its not porn, its Women's Beach Volley ball. Get a grip and some security.


A bit hostile, don't ya think?
So, you think it's perfectly ok for a guy to hide the fact that he does something that a woman says UPFRONT is a dealbreaker for her? That's really sad. Advocating lying to get whatever you want...wow.

Look, men who choose to abstain from such things are few and far between, I admit that. But don't you think the right course of action would be to let her go to find the man who fits her description of ideal? I mean, hey, maybe she WILL change her mind. But don't you think it would be better for her to do it on her own, rather than force her to live a lie? And that's exactly what happens when one lies to the other about activities like this. For some it is porn. For others it is alcohol. For others it is any kind of drug: tobacco, weed, pills, etc. Would you tell someone to just suck it up if her SO was a smoker, but hid it quite well, when she specifically stated that it's a dealbreaker? Each is legitimate. If someone says ANY activity is a dealbreaker, then they deserve to know upfront that their potential mate participates in these things. And, if they decide at THAT point that they can relax the boundaries, then there is nothing to complain about. Well, unless something happens in the marriage that points back to the activity. 

Still, my point is that if a man says he has a right to view it and masturbate to it all he wants, then a woman has a right to know about it upfront so she can make an informed decision, not one based on a lie.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Grayson said:


> Porn doesn't do that. Porn is a genre of media.
> 
> Now...if you want to tell me that *those guys' choices* to utilize a form of entertainment as a source of education and training distort their perceptions? I'll be right there with you. Because, likewise, someone who uses a season box set of _House _as medical training will have distorted perceptions, as well.
> 
> *So, no...porn does not interfere with healthy relationships or healthy perceptions of relationships. The choices of people who misuse it and misapply it interfere*.


People who have their perceptions of healthy relationships influenced by the use or misuse of porn don't even understand that they have been influenced. THAT'S the problem.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Maricha75 said:


> A bit hostile, don't ya think?
> So, you think it's perfectly ok for a guy to hide the fact that he does something that a woman says UPFRONT is a dealbreaker for her? That's really sad. Advocating lying to get whatever you want...wow.
> 
> [Look, men who choose to abstain from such things are few and far between, I admit that. But don't you think the right course of action would be to let her go to find the man who fits her description of ideal? I mean, hey, maybe she WILL change her mind. But don't you think it would be better for her to do it on her own, rather than force her to live a lie? And that's exactly what happens when one lies to the other about activities like this. For some it is porn. For others it is alcohol. For others it is any kind of drug: tobacco, weed, pills, etc. Would you tell someone to just suck it up if her SO was a smoker, but hid it quite well, when she specifically stated that it's a dealbreaker? Each is legitimate. If someone says ANY activity is a dealbreaker, then they deserve to know upfront that their potential mate participates in these things. And, if they decide at THAT point that they can relax the boundaries, then there is nothing to complain about. Well, unless something happens in the marriage that points back to the activity.
> 
> Still, *my point is that if a man says he has a right to view it and masturbate to it all he wants, then a woman has a right to know about it upfront so she can make an informed decision, not one based on a lie*.


That! :iagree:


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

AnnieAsh said:


> No one ever said you couldn't? I'm sure most women don't want to tell you what you can and can't do. I know I sure don't. I don't dictate anything to my husband. I'm not his mommy. If he chooses to do so, then I suppose I could choose to be appeased elsewhere just like him.
> 
> *If it decreases a woman's attraction to you...like say gaining 50 lbs would, you'd be ok with that?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> Personally, I don't care about porn, but my attraction level to a man drops considerably if he can name five porn stars in ten seconds.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> No one ever said you couldn't? I'm sure most women don't want to tell you what you can and can't do. I know I sure don't. I don't dictate anything to my husband. I'm not his mommy. If he chooses to do so, then I suppose I could choose to be appeased elsewhere just like him.
> 
> If it decreases a woman's attraction to you...like say gaining 50 lbs would, you'd be ok with that?


I've read about your problems and I sympathize, I really do, and I understand why this would be a hot button issue for you. Your husband has a real problem imo.

However, that does not mean that porn is a problem more widely. There are those of us who like a drink now and then, and then there are those who are alcoholics.

Yeah, if he chooses to take care of himself, you can choose to take care of yourself. Of course, regardless of what he does with himself, you're welcome to take care of yourself. Are you seriously arguing that a guy watching porn gives you permission to cheat? Sure! Cheat! Now he can cheat too! Let's just escalate out of marriage. In your case that might have applied, but I don't think running out and cheating because of the average husbands porn use is even remotely equivalent.

The 50lb example has a problem too. The overwhelming majority of men watch porn. So I didn't suddenly become less attractive by gaining 50 lbs. I always had that 50lbs... and so do almost all other men.

The analogy doesn't work the way you want. What you're really saying is "hey, every guy, I'm not attracted to you unless you drop 50 lbs." Maybe he'll go for it... and congrats, you've coerced him. Or maybe he'll just take one of the many who don't care much about the 50lbs.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LouAnn Poovy said:


> AnnieAsh said:
> 
> 
> 
> No one ever said you couldn't? I'm sure most women don't want to tell you what you can and can't do. I know I sure don't. I don't dictate anything to my husband. I'm not his mommy. If he chooses to do so, then I suppose I could choose to be appeased elsewhere just like him.
> 
> *If it decreases a woman's attraction to you...like say gaining 50 lbs would, you'd be ok with that?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> :iagree:
> 
> Personally, I don't care about porn, but my attraction level to a man drops considerably if he can name five porn stars in ten seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> Uh.... ha... I can't even name one. Its cool though, I like amateurs. Real people are infinitely more sexy to me than pornstars, lame plots and cinematography.
Click to expand...


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> A bit hostile, don't ya think?
> So, you think it's perfectly ok for a guy to hide the fact that he does something that a woman says UPFRONT is a dealbreaker for her? That's really sad. Advocating lying to get whatever you want...wow.
> 
> Look, men who choose to abstain from such things are few and far between, I admit that. But don't you think the right course of action would be to let her go to find the man who fits her description of ideal? I mean, hey, maybe she WILL change her mind. But don't you think it would be better for her to do it on her own, rather than force her to live a lie? And that's exactly what happens when one lies to the other about activities like this. For some it is porn. For others it is alcohol. For others it is any kind of drug: tobacco, weed, pills, etc. Would you tell someone to just suck it up if her SO was a smoker, but hid it quite well, when she specifically stated that it's a dealbreaker? Each is legitimate. If someone says ANY activity is a dealbreaker, then they deserve to know upfront that their potential mate participates in these things. And, if they decide at THAT point that they can relax the boundaries, then there is nothing to complain about. Well, unless something happens in the marriage that points back to the activity.
> 
> Still, my point is that if a man says he has a right to view it and masturbate to it all he wants, then a woman has a right to know about it upfront so she can make an informed decision, not one based on a lie.



That's great an all but the fact will be that most women will not bring up porn before marriage (yeah yeah, I know, ladies at your church, etc.). The vast majority will take a couple of routes when dealing with porn. They will throw away or delete material. They will try to screw him off of porn. Neither of which amount to getting much accomplished. Very few women in their early-mid twenties will get rid of a man that they feel is marriage material over porn. In fact most women in their early-mid twenties don't have the issues with porn that they will have after they age a bit more and have a couple kids. So this mythical discussion where the gauntlet of porn gets thrown down rarely happens with couples getting ready to get married.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> That's great an all but the fact will be that most women will not bring up porn before marriage (yeah yeah, I know, ladies at your church, etc.). The vast majority will take a couple of routes when dealing with porn. They will throw away or delete material. They will try to screw him off of porn. Neither of which amount to getting much accomplished. Very few women in their early-mid twenties will get rid of a man that they feel is marriage material over porn. In fact most women in their early-mid twenties don't have the issues with porn that they will have after they age a bit more and have a couple kids. So this mythical discussion where the gauntlet of porn gets thrown down rarely happens with couples getting ready to get married.


Then they are no different then the men/women who know someone's view on porn and hide it.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Goofy guys are my specialty.
> 
> I think that's a very good point you bring up. If my husband came to me and asked me to stop being Feral for Ferrell, I would have to. Not because he controls me, but because he is more important to me than Will. I want him to be happy and secure and feel like his wife puts his needs above others. Especially, if he said it made him feel less attracted me. I place a lot of value in my husband's attraction to me.


A fair answer. Personally, I'd like to think there's some middle ground in there somewhere...a discussion where you explain what you like about the movies and Ferrell, and he realizes that they are, after all, just dumb movies...watch 'em if you like, but don't ask me to, and if you neglect me for your umpteenth viewing of _Anchorman_, we'll have some words. And, vice versa with his porn. In far too many cases where porn is involved, though, reason seems to go out the window...there's seldom room granted for middle ground (on the part of both parties) and it becomes an all-or-nothing argument. Both sides of the issue have become SO polarized, that the subject does little but drive the people on both sides of the issue further apart. Most who enjoy porn aren't the obsessive, neglectful louts that we read about here. And most who don't aren't the overbearing control freaks that some complain about. Unfortunately, though, the cases we see around here are ones where one or both partners do make up one of those extremes.

Now, in you case, he *is* neglecting you for it, and I'll be the first to agree that that's not acceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Maricha75 said:


> A bit hostile, don't ya think?


I'm always hostile to what basically amounts to a thought crime. Its ridiculous imo and should be responded to with hostility. I think women need to harden the f up and stop being so insecure. Yeah, we noticed the hot girl that walked by - we still like you. Yeah, we watch porn - we still like you. You know what? We don't give a flip that you checked out hot dude or a have a crush on Chris Hemsworth. Why? Because you're not going to leave us for them. You don't even know them... and we trust you. Porn use is unattractive? Insecurity is REALLY unattractive.



Maricha75 said:


> So, you think it's perfectly ok for a guy to hide the fact that he does something that a woman says UPFRONT is a dealbreaker for her? That's really sad. Advocating lying to get whatever you want...wow.


Where did I say that? The fact of the matter is that it IS NOT discussed up front. From what I've heard, women's problem with porn doesn't show up until well later. The ones who are up front about it are the ones who had a relationship with an abuser.

The way it really happens is that she begins to feel quasi-jealous of the porn, and withdraws. The guy then leans on porn to an even greater degree... and you have a downward spiral.

She'll nag him about it and he'll be more discreet to avoid the nagging.

imo, he should just say tough titty, I like porn and am going to watch it from time to time. We weren't having sex; I didn't feel like chasing after you tonight; and you didn't come after me. No harm no foul. If you were missing something you should have come for it... not b*tch at me for not feeling like chasing you once in awhile.



Maricha75 said:


> Still, my point is that if a man says he has a right to view it and masturbate to it all he wants, then a woman has a right to know about it upfront so she can make an informed decision, not one based on a lie.


Yes ladies! Please please please ask that question. Nevermind it being awefully nosey, I'd at least know to send her packing right there. 

As I said, if she's insecure about normal porn use and wanting to control her man to such extent, she's probably a control freak and insecure in other areas. I don't need all that noise.


----------



## Grayson

LouAnn Poovy said:


> People who have their perceptions of healthy relationships influenced by the use or misuse of porn don't even understand that they have been influenced. THAT'S the problem.


That is indeed a problem. But that problem isn't born of porn...it's born of that person who allowed a work of fiction (and, yes...even most so-called "amateur" porn is fictionalized to some degree, optimized for the audience's ease of viewing) to influence their perceptions of the real world. We don't say it's _House_'s fault if someone goes to the doctor expecting a brilliant (if obnoxious) diagnostician. There are those who say that the public now expects foolproof precision forensic evidence a la _CSI_ when they're called to jury duty...but that's on those viewers. A one-hour procedural drama designed to entertain is not meant as a textbook on life...nor is porn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## The-Deceived

I quit watching porn. I was having psychological ED. I quit a couple months ago, and all is in working order again. I don't miss it at all.

I agree it can be potentially destructive on many levels. 

But that's just my opinion.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Kobo said:


> That's great an all but the fact will be that most women will not bring up porn before marriage (yeah yeah, I know, ladies at your church, etc.). The vast majority will take a couple of routes when dealing with porn. They will throw away or delete material. They will try to screw him off of porn. Neither of which amount to getting much accomplished. Very few women in their early-mid twenties will get rid of a man that they feel is marriage material over porn. In fact most women in their early-mid twenties don't have the issues with porn that they will have after they age a bit more and have a couple kids. So this mythical discussion where the gauntlet of porn gets thrown down rarely happens with couples getting ready to get married.


I have children in their mid-to-late twenties. I've discussed porn with them and their boyfriends/girlfriends (it isn't as weird as it sounds, I'll elaborate if asked). Porn is a hot button and it is often discussed early in a relationship, at least by my grown children. Maybe the older generations aren't talking bout it, but the young ones seem to be. And yes, my daughter did break up with a young man over porn.


----------



## Kobo

LouAnn Poovy said:


> I have children in their mid-to-late twenties. I've discussed porn with them and their boyfriends/girlfriends (it isn't as weird as it sounds, I'll elaborate if asked). Porn is a hot button and it is often discussed early in a relationship, at least by my grown children. Maybe the older generations aren't talking bout it, but the young ones seem to be. And yes, my daughter did break up with a young man over porn.


Doubt it's a hot button topic with so many sending out their own porn to private and public forums. Good for them though.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Grayson said:


> A fair answer. Personally, I'd like to think there's some middle ground in there somewhere...a discussion where you explain what you like about the movies and Ferrell, and he realizes that they are, after all, just dumb movies...watch 'em if you like, but don't ask me to, and if you neglect me for your umpteenth viewing of _Anchorman_, we'll have some words. And, vice versa with his porn. In far too many cases where porn is involved, though, reason seems to go out the window...there's seldom room granted for middle ground (on the part of both parties) and it becomes an all-or-nothing argument. Both sides of the issue have become SO polarized, that the subject does little but drive the people on both sides of the issue further apart. Most who enjoy porn aren't the obsessive, neglectful louts that we read about here. And most who don't aren't the overbearing control freaks that some complain about. Unfortunately, though, the cases we see around here are ones where one or both partners do make up one of those extremes.
> 
> Now, in you case, he *is* neglecting you for it, and I'll be the first to agree that that's not acceptable.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is such a silly example. Watching a Will Ferrell movie and watching a porn movie are not comparable. You don't get married and agree to only watch dumb movies together, but you did agree to be sexually intimate only with your partner.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Kobo said:


> Doubt it's a hot button topic with so many sending out their own porn to private and public forums. Good for them though.


Not sure what the reference to amateur porn means, but ok Kobo.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> Throwing insult's at someone who doesn't have the same view's as you sound's like a pathetic attempt to deflect someone's actions.


I missed responding to this. I insulted no one. I pointed out the absurdity of being jealous of pixels.

If a guy is actually neglecting his wife as a result of his porn use, she has a legit complaint. If she goes to bed and he chooses to stay up and watch some porn, its none of her business anymore. If she wanted something, she could just as easily come and gotten it.

Oh but "I want you to want me and always chase me!!"

Entitlement.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LouAnn Poovy said:


> Not sure what the reference to amateur porn means, but ok Kobo.


ie its a comfortable and shared thing for many couples. Most of the real amateur porn out there is from couples with an exhibitionist streak - they like showing off or being watched.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LouAnn Poovy said:


> This is such a silly example. Watching a Will Ferrell movie and watching a porn movie are not comparable. You don't get married and agree to only watch dumb movies together, but you did agree to be sexually intimate only with your partner.


AHHH so its not porn now... its masturbation period huh?

btw, your vow was not being intimate with others. You're perfectly welcome to be intimate with yourself.

However, how one is intimate with a pixel is beyond me. Oh, its a real person on camera? Would it be ok if its cartoon porn? What do they call it... Hentai or something? I'm just curious how this all works.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

LouAnn Poovy said:


> This is such a silly example. Watching a Will Ferrell movie and watching a porn movie are not comparable. You don't get married and agree to only watch dumb movies together, but you did agree to be sexually intimate only with your partner.


To you it is a silly example. From the other perspective, it is highlighting how silly most men view the female perspective on porn and masturbating. In most cases, the woman has little to no interest in providing that release to the man, so it is all about control, and the example is entirely valid. In YOUR case, a very specific case, you have a far greater problem. Your SO is masturbating INSTEAD of anything with you, as well as effectively masturbating when you ARE together. I fully understand where you are coming from, because I have the exact same (well.. opposite sexes.. but you get the point). JUST the porn isn't the issue though: and it could/should be compared to distaste at any form of entertainment that the partner enjoys. In your case, addictive behavior and excessive masturbation are the/a problem.


----------



## OrangeCrush

LouAnn Poovy said:


> Personally, I don't care about porn, but my attraction level to a man drops considerably if he can name five porn stars in ten seconds.


yep. for me it's the same  reaction as if he were to say that he loves going to eat at cookie-cutter corporate chain restaurants or that One Direction is his favourite band of all time. he can enjoy things that I feel are bland and cookie-cutter with no thought for quality- I'll think he's not very creative, inclined to settle for the banal and let mainstream media mold his preferences. And he'll think I'm an insufferable pretentious brat, and we'll know we're clearly not right for each other.


----------



## Kobo

TiggyBlue said:


> Then they are no different then the men/women who know someone's view on porn and hide it.


Problem is that if most relationships are starting from this point to where it evolves into a "deal breaker" then who is in the wrong.


----------



## Kobo

LouAnn Poovy said:


> Not sure what the reference to amateur porn means, but ok Kobo.


It means I doubt that porn is the hot button topic that you claim it to be based on your discussions with your kids. My reason is that I can find large communities of women and men in their age range where they are posting pictures/videos of themselves nude as well as performing various sex acts. This does not include the sexting that goes on (Its not as private as you think).


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> That's great an all but the fact will be that most women will not bring up porn before marriage (yeah yeah, I know, ladies at your church, etc.). The vast majority will take a couple of routes when dealing with porn. They will throw away or delete material. They will try to screw him off of porn. Neither of which amount to getting much accomplished. Very few women in their early-mid twenties will get rid of a man that they feel is marriage material over porn. In fact most women in their early-mid twenties don't have the issues with porn that they will have after they age a bit more and have a couple kids. So this mythical discussion where the gauntlet of porn gets thrown down rarely happens with couples getting ready to get married.


Actually, the vast majority of the women I know DON'T talk about that subject, even after getting married. It really boggles my mind. I mean, my husband and I had premarital counseling, and the subject of sex DID come up then. But, oddly enough, we had discussed porn before that point because my husband was talking about things regarding his dad. He had been disgusted by the fact that his dad watched porn, and decided he wanted nothing to do with it. That was when I knew we meshed on THAT subject, at least. But you are very right... this subject rarely ever comes up. Based on the myriad threads on the subject of porn, I think it SHOULD be something discussed before marriage.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

ET1SSJonota said:


> To you it is a silly example. From the other perspective, it is highlighting how silly most men view the female perspective on porn and masturbating. In most cases, the woman has little to no interest in providing that release to the man, so it is all about control, and the example is entirely valid. In YOUR case, a very specific case, you have a far greater problem. Your SO is masturbating INSTEAD of anything with you, as well as effectively masturbating when you ARE together. I fully understand where you are coming from, because I have the exact same (well.. opposite sexes.. but you get the point). JUST the porn isn't the issue though: and it could/should be compared to distaste at any form of entertainment that the partner enjoys. In your case, addictive behavior and excessive masturbation are the/a problem.


The funny thing is I don't care about porn, but I can't help that my attraction dissipates knowing a partner loves his porn. You are correct, my problem is my SO masturbating instead of having sex with me, over and over and over again. 

And back to the silly thing, when watching a Will Ferrell movie most people chuckle, but don't have an orgasm, one of the most intense physical feelings humans have. Oh god, now I can never watch a Will Ferrell movie the same ever again!!


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, *the vast majority of the women I know DON'T talk about that subject,* even after getting married. It really boggles my mind. I mean, my husband and I had premarital counseling, and the subject of sex DID come up then. But, oddly enough, we had discussed porn before that point because my husband was talking about things regarding his dad. He had been disgusted by the fact that his dad watched porn, and decided he wanted nothing to do with it. That was when I knew we meshed on THAT subject, at least. But you are very right... this subject rarely ever comes up. Based on the myriad threads on the subject of porn, I think it SHOULD be something discussed before marriage.


This is very odd to me. Why would women not discuss this? The women I know well, do discuss it.


----------



## mablenc

Wiserforit said:


> I don't think women should be able to read romance novels without my permission..


I have not seen any of these threads:

Help my wife is addicted to romance novels

Romance novels ruined my marriage

Do all women like to read romance novels?

Help!!! I found out my wife only reads romance novels about men with 14 inch..how can I compete? I'm devastated 

Found out she reads romance novels, don't know what to do

I want a divorce! Just found a ton of romance novels in her kindle

My wife asked me to grow my hair and dye it blonde and wants me to role play as Flabio

:rofl:


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

First of all, I'd like to thank Faithful Wife for that fantastic spinshow she gave us with her Rationalization Hamster. Yes FW, watching porn for variety and leaving your spouse for the bigger better deal is really the same thing. 










And something else, insults, personal attacks, shaming do make a thread better. So, thanks.

Back to the topic at hand. Porn is sexual acts depicted by media for usage by consumers, yes? Okay, so basically comedy films make you laugh, drama movies make you cry, you watch other people live their lives in TV series, and porn gives you sexual release. I don't go out of the cinema after a comedy film, thinking I want to live my life getting constantly hit in the face with custard pies. I don't finish watching HIMYM and let fantasies of life as Ted(who is btw the ultimate beta schlub, herbling and doughboy). So why is it automatically assumed for a man to be completely engulfed in porn, while his wife is burning with passion for him but he just won't engage her in holy matrimony(I was gonna say fck, but then I thought this post could use some class.)

Second, ladies, we all know why you watch that movie where the male protagonist is a lost but very rugged hunk who might just be able to find some direction with the love of a woman. Or that TV series where that lean, muscular and dominating vampire is just so mesmerizing. Or read that mainstream light erotica book with the BDSM features. But you read those for entertainment, you aren't dirty like those male pigs  

And last, if something is really a dealbreaker for you, YOU are the one who should be pressing the issue, not wait for it to be presented to you. But the problem is it generally isn't a deal breaker, it's just a way to control your spouse( this isn't directed at you AnnieAsh, the way you described it sounds this is a very real problem in your marriage.) Do you know what is really unattractive? Losing your frame and doing something just because your wife wants you to.


----------



## SomedayDig

mablenc said:


> I have not see any of these threads:
> 
> Help my wife is addicted to romance novels
> 
> Romance novels ruined my marriage
> 
> Do all women like to read romance novels?
> 
> Help!!! I found out my wife only reads romance novels about men with 14 inch..how can I compete? I'm devastated
> 
> Found out she reads romance novels, don't know what to do
> 
> I want a divorce! Just found a ton of romance novels in her kindle
> 
> My wife asked me to grow my hair and dye it blonde and wants me to role play as Flabio
> 
> :rofl:


Hmmm...maybe that enhances their bedroom experience?

Which - hmmm...maybe guys who aren't addicted to porn enhance the woman's bedroom experience. 

I dunno.

Seriously, I can say that Regret is happy that I watch porn when I want to. Otherwise, I would never have done the suck n' swirl move that I saw in that lesbian scene so many years ago!


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> this subject rarely ever comes up. Based on the myriad threads on the subject of porn, I think it SHOULD be something discussed before marriage.


Of course it should. Just like if I have a major issue with oposite sex friends. My wife's first time hearing about it should not be 3 years into the marriage and there shouldn't have to be an incident to bring out the discussion.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Kobo said:


> It means I doubt that porn is the hot button topic that you claim it to be based on your discussions with your kids. My reason is that I can find large communities of women and men in their age range where they are posting pictures/videos of themselves nude as well as performing various sex acts. This does not include the sexting that goes on (Its not as private as you think).


Kobo, my experience is that porn is discussed by young adults, sometimes quite early in the relationship. Hot button, cold button, whatever. My experience is different than yours, and your claim has no more or less validity than mine. 

Discussing porn & relationship boundaries are quite a different subject than is sending porn videos to private/not private groups (or whatever it was you said). Don't know anything about that or why you brought it up.


----------



## mablenc

SomedayDig said:


> Hmmm...maybe that enhances their bedroom experience?
> 
> Which - hmmm...maybe guys who aren't addicted to porn enhance the woman's bedroom experience.
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Seriously, I can say that Regret is happy that I watch porn when I want to. Otherwise, I would never have done the suck n' swirl move that I saw in that lesbian scene so many years ago!


Yeah I agree both can be educational, looks like you learned something quite valuable 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ET1SSJonota

mablenc said:


> I have not seen any of these threads:
> 
> Help my wife is addicted to romance novels
> 
> Romance novels ruined my marriage
> 
> Do all women like to read romance novels?
> 
> Help!!! I found out my wife only reads romance novels about men with 14 inch..how can I compete? I'm devastated
> 
> Found out she reads romance novels, don't know what to do
> 
> I want a divorce! Just found a ton of romance novels in her kindle
> 
> My wife asked me to grow my hair and dye it blonde and wants me to role play as Flabio
> 
> :rofl:


How about HELP my wife would rather read erotica and get herself of with a battery operated piece of equipment than get off with me?

Mostly because men would LIKE more things in their woman's life that excite her, rather than trying to be the only thing. As long as, of course, that excitement gets shared on occasion, and/or isn't the ONLY excitement.


----------



## Kobo

LouAnn Poovy said:


> Kobo, my experience is that porn is discussed by young adults, sometimes quite early in the relationship. Hot button, cold button, whatever. My experience is different than yours, and your claim has no more or less validity than mine.
> 
> Discussing porn & relationship boundaries are quite a different subject than is sending porn videos to private/not private groups (or whatever it was you said). Don't know anything about that or why you brought it up.


So do you think that someone who has a boundary of no porn in a relationship will post their own porn for others to view?


----------



## Maricha75

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Second, ladies, we all know why you watch that movie where the male protagonist is a lost but very rugged hunk who might just be able to find some direction with the love of a woman. Or that TV series where that lean, muscular and dominating vampire is just so mesmerizing. Or read that mainstream light erotica book with the BDSM features. But you read those for entertainment, you aren't dirty like those male pigs


Movies: What does it say when I'm watching movies like The Fast and the Furious and paying more attention to the cars? Or even the fighting in Lord of the Rings? What about the Resident Evil movies? 

TV series: Sorry, I prefer CSI, NCIS, and the like. I love the mysteries.

Reading material: Pass. Sorry that one doesn't apply to me either. I'd much rather read gaming lore or Christian based fiction. Why the Christian based? Because there is no sex in them. 

So, some aren't hypocritical as far as porn vs erotica novels, etc either. 

But yes, I get the point you were making... those who say "I can drool over whatever actor I wish, but you can't watch porn." or "I can read [insert romance/erotica novel title here] but you can't watch porn." are hypocritical... same argument every time. Next, some will come back with erotica =/= porn, etc. Which will spin off yet another discussion on porn vs erotica. But I do understand your point. 




Shadow_Nirvana said:


> *And last, if something is really a dealbreaker for you, YOU are the one who should be pressing the issue, not wait for it to be presented to you.* But the problem is it generally isn't a deal breaker, it's just a way to control your spouse( this isn't directed at you AnnieAsh, the way you described it sounds this is a very real problem in your marriage.) Do you know what is really unattractive? Losing your frame and doing something just because your wife wants you to.


YES! If you are adamant that it is that important to you, DISCUSS it. But if a man is adamant about KEEPING it, I think he should also present his argument... not just the "I can do whatever I want! You're not my mom!" type, either. Ideally, it should be well thought out and discussed thoroughly. Maybe one will change his/her mind. Maybe not. But at least the discussion occurs!


----------



## Grayson

LouAnn Poovy said:


> I have children in their mid-to-late twenties. I've discussed porn with them and their boyfriends/girlfriends (it isn't as weird as it sounds, I'll elaborate if asked). Porn is a hot button and it is often discussed early in a relationship, at least by my grown children. Maybe the older generations aren't talking bout it, but the young ones seem to be. And yes, my daughter did break up with a young man over porn.


And that's well within her rights. I haven't seen anyone remotely suggesting that everyone should enjoy porn (or any other entertainment genre). I do think that the current generation is, if not more accepting of porn, more realistic in their views on it and less likely to outright condemn the genre and those who enjoy it, while still able to determine whether of not its a dealbreaker for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Grayson

LouAnn Poovy said:


> This is such a silly example. Watching a Will Ferrell movie and watching a porn movie are not comparable.


Well, you're right. Porn has better writing and acting. ;-)



> You don't get married and agree to only watch dumb movies together, but you did agree to be sexually intimate only with your partner.


I think, before I can respond to this, we need to get a baseline on what "being sexually intimate" is for you. For me, watching porn or, for that matter, solo masturbation (as opposed to doing it with your partner present) are not "sexually intimate." To me, intimacy requires another person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_

Edit: Add a word that auto-fill dropped and changed the entire meaning of a sentence.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Kobo said:


> Problem is that if most relationships are starting from this point to where it evolves into a "deal breaker" then who is in the wrong.


The one who either doesn't speak up about their deal breakers or the one who knows there partner's deal breakers and decides to continue doing it in private.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I missed responding to this. I insulted no one. I pointed out the absurdity of being jealous of pixels.
> 
> If a guy is actually neglecting his wife as a result of his porn use, she has a legit complaint. If she goes to bed and he chooses to stay up and watch some porn, its none of her business anymore. If she wanted something, she could just as easily come and gotten it.
> 
> Oh but "I want you to want me and always chase me!!"
> 
> Entitlement.


That wasn't aimed at you specifically but just in general, to some if someone watches porn they are automatically a addict, to some if someone doesn't doesn't want porn in their relationship they are automatically insecure.
It just seems easier for many to insult someone who has a different need or standard in a relationship than to understand it. 
Some people want to marry someone with the same religion or moral beliefs (vegetarian/humanitarian ect), porn is no different.


----------



## ocotillo

Maricha75 said:


> Next, some will come back with erotica =/= porn, etc. Which will spin off yet another discussion on porn vs erotica.




Well not to nitpick, but words like, 'exciting', 'arousing', 'erotic' etc., describe the inducement of a subjective mental state. 

Pornography doesn't describe a mental state, it was coined to describe literature that is sexually explicit. Cleland's _The Life and Adventures of Miss Fanny Hill _ or Defoe's _The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders_ or Haywood's _Love in Excess_ are early examples of English pornography. 

Some people might find those books erotic while others might find them boring as hell, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## Maricha75

LouAnn Poovy said:


> This is very odd to me. Why would women not discuss this? The women I know well, do discuss it.


Ideally, LouAnn, women WOULD. But think about this... some are older generation, like 80-100 years old and it just wasn't discussed in their day. Maybe in some areas, it was, but many others blush and change the subject. Kinda a telltale sign there. Then you have my parents' generation. Those I know were part of the "don't ask, don't tell.... and turn a blind eye, even if you seethe inside". Not healthy, certainly. Now, granted, many of the ladies I know very well are church members, so that can often skew the results. It wasn't until recently that I have even heard words referring to sexual trafficking being preached from the pulpit (just an example of taboo subject). So, it is not so "hidden" anymore. I suspect that my daughter's generation will be discussing the subject more freely with each other. Keep in mind, discussing it doesn't mean accepting it into their relationships/marriages. It merely means that sex isn't going to be the taboo subject it has been. THAT much, at least, I am sure we can agree on... people need to discuss the subject, not hide from it.


----------



## mablenc

The older generations got treated for hysteria and ordered all kinds of goodies via sears and other stores. Facial massagers were quite popular back then. If anything women have always been sexual, look at the oldest dildos. I think women were clever in how they addressed it. We hardly hear anything on "I caught my wife doing/ viewing ....."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SomedayDig

mablenc said:


> The older generations got treated for hysteria and ordered all kinds of goodies via sears and other stores. Facial massagers were quite popular back then. If anything women have always been sexual, look at the oldest dildos. I think women were clever in how they addressed it. *We hardly hear anything on "I caught my wife doing/ viewing ....."*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless one is reading Penthouse Forum!

Oh. Wait. Is that porn? Damn.


----------



## romantic_guy

I personally do not feel entitled to watch porn. I do think it can be destructive and there are many articles in publications like "The Journal of Psychiatry" that indicate this. Porn can be like a drug. What is exciting at first is not so exciting after a while so you must get more and more of it. There have been studies that show young men having ED because of the excessive use of porn.

I have had an issue with it in the past. I began to discover that I could not orgasm with my wife without fantasizing about something that I saw. 

We have not had sex in about 7 weeks because of complications from a hysterectomy. I am finding that I am not the least bit tempted to watch porn. Maybe it is because it is so hard to see my wife still having discomfort??? I don't know. But at this point she is the only one I want to make love with...the only one I want to think about. Probably 3 or 4 more weeks...sigh...


----------



## Grayson

SomedayDig said:


> Unless one is reading Penthouse Forum!
> 
> Oh. Wait. Is that porn? Damn.


In college, I often caught my gf reading Penthouse Forum before I'd even known the latest issue of Penthouse had arrived. Didn't have a problem with it at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Virtually every guy is spanking to porn long before any woman came into his life... and he keeps right on spanking. Suddenly she's the wife and thinks she can change the terms.


Hmmm. But people often forsake various sexual freedoms for relationships. This is how monogamy even becomes possible.

So, sure, buddy had regular orgies, spanked to porn, and had multiple partners before the missus came into his life. Are you saying that she should just get used to the multiple partners and orgies, cuz that's who he is and he was like that long before she came along?

No. It's usually (though not always) just the porn that she has to get used to -- because it's "not the same thing" as cheating. Many say the same of webcams, sex chats, strippers, even prostitution (cause hey, it doesn't affect how I feel about you, and has nothing to do with you. It's just sex!). 

But ultimately, cheating is where you draw the line. And in a relationship, I think the discussion of what counts as cheating needs to involve both partners -- not be unilaterally decided by someone who feels it's his/her right to get off to whatever and whenever (s)he feels like it. 

Of course, this discussion is much easier if you stick with people who share your definitions/lines and are honest about them. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> lmfao... your husband maybe, otherwise I don't know what men you're talking about. I say kudos to the woman who's into porn. Awesome. Show me what turns you on babe. This is pretty much the opinion of every guy I know. Most of us would think its pretty awesome if our women were into porn.


And that's why there are so many threads here from men who are upset about the way their wife dresses because she is attracting other men, or that she is demanding sexual favours that he is uncomfortable with, or nervous because she finds her co-workers or bosses attractive and so on. 

Men often feel that their possessiveness is justified, whereas the women's is not. Why is that?


----------



## Maricha75

Ok, actually, I have a better comparison to porn: soap operas. I admit, I never really thought of it before, but I used to watch themas a teen and on into the first part of my marriage. I never even thought of them as porn or even as a comparison, but really, it could be. 

so, if we throw that in... I guess I DID watch porn in the early part of my marriage. However, when my husband said he didn't like that I watched it, I stopped, immediately. Why? Not because he was controlling, but because he explained why (unrealistic expectations, bad storylines, etc.)... And I had no problem... because he is more important to me than pixels. Soap operas weren't discussed before marriage. It came up after. Still follows the same lines, I believe. Maybe I'm wrong though.


----------



## always_alone

mablenc said:


> Yeah I agree both can be educational, looks like you learned something quite valuable


Sadly, what so many learn is absolutely awful:

- that men need only a penis and not actual sexual ability to "please" a woman
- that sex is all about male gratification, and women are just props
- that aggression and violence and degradation of women is "hot"
- that any woman who isn't ready for whatever is depicted in the fantasy is a sexual dud
- that women are ready at the drop of a hat or the sight of an erect penis to go at it; that they don't mind going from anal to oral, without any sort of cleanup; that their sexuality is entirely responsive and aiming to please, and they have no needs of their own.

And we know that men learn these messages because of the many ways that they complain about their wives here on TAM and elsewhere.

This is my main objection to porn.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Second, ladies, we all know why you watch that movie where the male protagonist is a lost but very rugged hunk who might just be able to find some direction with the love of a woman. Or that TV series where that lean, muscular and dominating vampire is just so mesmerizing. Or read that mainstream light erotica book with the BDSM features. But you read those for entertainment, you aren't dirty like those male pigs
> 
> And last, if something is really a dealbreaker for you, YOU are the one who should be pressing the issue, not wait for it to be presented to you. But the problem is it generally isn't a deal breaker, it's just a way to control your spouse( this isn't directed at you AnnieAsh, the way you described it sounds this is a very real problem in your marriage.) Do you know what is really unattractive? Losing your frame and doing something just because your wife wants you to.


Booooo! I'm always getting left out!


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

always_alone said:


> And that's why there are so many threads here from men who are upset about the way their wife dresses because she is attracting other men, or that she is demanding sexual favours that he is uncomfortable with, or nervous because she finds her co-workers or bosses attractive and so on.
> 
> Men often feel that their possessiveness is justified, whereas the women's is not. Why is that?


I fail to see the similarity.

You are equating real life situations that could evolve into affairs with.... what exactly, watching porn?

And not to mention that in such threads those men are told that what they are feeling may just be insecurity and overposessiveness, if there is really nothing to be disturbed and no inappropriate stuff. These are things told by other men. So, hmmm.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

always_alone said:


> Sadly, what so many learn is absolutely awful:
> 
> - that men need only a penis and not actual sexual ability to "please" a woman Unfortunately, since our penis doesn't come with an installed electric unbalanced motor, we don't work as well as "the competition" - must be nice having everything needed to please your partner
> - that sex is all about male gratification, and women are just props Haven't ever heard this one...
> - that aggression and violence and degradation of women is "hot" what little I've seen/done has been at the request of said women
> - that any woman who isn't ready for whatever is depicted in the fantasy is a sexual dud but so is any man not equipped with the aforementioned props... or the inability to last 35 minutes to try and stimulate as much
> - that women are ready at the drop of a hat or the sight of an erect penis to go at it; that they don't mind going from anal to oral, without any sort of cleanup; that their sexuality is entirely responsive and aiming to please, and they have no needs of their own. Don't know anyone who "expects" this as "normal"...
> 
> And we know that men learn these messages because of the many ways that they complain about their wives here on TAM and elsewhere.
> 
> This is my main objection to porn.


I have watched porn, even with the wife, and read it... I think your reading the "messages" of porn is WAY overboard.


----------



## Grayson

romantic_guy said:


> I personally do not feel entitled to watch porn. I do think it can be destructive and there are many articles in publications like "The Journal of Psychiatry" that indicate this. Porn can be like a drug. What is exciting at first is not so exciting after a while so you must get more and more of it. There have been studies that show young men having ED because of the excessive use of porn.


Modern society tends to throw the "A" word around rather casually. Anything not a necessity that we excessively indulge in becomes an "addiction." Any self-conditioned behavior that, in any way, disturbs another is branded an "addiction." From where I stand, I don't buy the notion that porn (or gambling, or running, or any one of countless behaviors or pastimes) are addictive. What they are are stimuli that trigger the true addiction: the chemical "high" flooding the pleasure centers of the brain. That is a conditioned response. Now, don't get me wrong...any activity can become routine, then a habit, and on to a compulsion...but that doesn't make it an addiction.

Allow me a crude analogy, if you will. I recently took our puppy through obedience training. The training relies heavily upon repetition: issue the command, correct or reward as warranted, and repeat until neither correction nor reward is necessary. It's conditioned behavior. That person who conditions him-/herself to respond to porn (and little else) is no different at the basest of levels than my dog who, upon hearing the command "down" will lie down where she is, without reward, correction, wearing a training collar or a leash. But my dog is not addicted to lying down...she's responding as conditioned to specific stimuli.



> I have had an issue with it in the past. I began to discover that I could not orgasm with my wife without fantasizing about something that I saw.


You have my utmost respect for having this level of self-awareness.



> We have not had sex in about 7 weeks because of complications from a hysterectomy. I am finding that I am not the least bit tempted to watch porn. Maybe it is because it is so hard to see my wife still having discomfort??? I don't know. But at this point she is the only one I want to make love with...the only one I want to think about. Probably 3 or 4 more weeks...sigh...


Best of luck to you. It's been almost a year and a half since my wife's hysterectomy, and I can cougnt on one hand the number of times we've had full blown intercourse. It's a matter of both physical discomfort and a nosedive of hormones leading to an equivalent nosedive of sex drive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> Sadly, what so many learn is absolutely awful:
> 
> - that men need only a penis and not actual sexual ability to "please" a woman
> - that sex is all about male gratification, and women are just props
> - that aggression and violence and degradation of women is "hot"
> - that any woman who isn't ready for whatever is depicted in the fantasy is a sexual dud
> - that women are ready at the drop of a hat or the sight of an erect penis to go at it; that they don't mind going from anal to oral, without any sort of cleanup; that their sexuality is entirely responsive and aiming to please, and they have no needs of their own.
> 
> And we know that men learn these messages because of the many ways that they complain about their wives here on TAM and elsewhere.
> 
> This is my main objection to porn.


Do you have equivalent objections to, say, sitcoms or crime dramas? Because while - like porn - they may impart a tidbit of information that you didn't know and can find useful in life, they're not designed as an instruction manual for the real world. And anyone who uses *any* piece of fiction as the yardstick by which they measure reality is foolish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

ET1SSJonota said:


> Sadly, what so many learn is absolutely awful:
> 
> - that men need only a penis and not actual sexual ability to "please" a woman Unfortunately, since our penis doesn't come with an installed electric unbalanced motor, we don't work as well as "the competition" - must be nice having everything needed to please your partner


I think you've misunderstood my point here, because in no way am I trying to suggest that a penis is inferior to a vibrator. Personally, I can't stand vibrators because I find them incessant and numbing.

My point was more about how women in porn are portrayed as being super ecstatic and into whatever it is he is doing, no matter how bumbling, ridiculous, or painful. You can often see pain in the eyes of the actress, even as she is faking her orgasm. 

And this is a role model of good sex for those who are using porn as an educational tool.

As for the women as props -- that is most porn (that I've seen) in a nutshell. Only in rare circumstances is she ever portrayed as actually having sexual desires, interests, or needs of her own. She is just a bod splayed out for male gratification.


----------



## mablenc

always_alone said:


> I think you've misunderstood my point here, because in no way am I trying to suggest that a penis is inferior to a vibrator. Personally, I can't stand vibrators because I find them incessant and numbing.
> 
> My point was more about how women in porn are portrayed as being super ecstatic and into whatever it is he is doing, no matter how bumbling, ridiculous, or painful. You can often see pain in the eyes of the actress, even as she is faking her orgasm.
> 
> And this is a role model of good sex for those who are using porn as an educational tool.
> 
> As for the women as props -- that is most porn (that I've seen) in a nutshell. Only in rare circumstances is she ever portrayed as actually having sexual desires, interests, or needs of her own. She is just a bod splayed out for male gratification.


You can't deny that some woman are abused and exploited, and unfortunately in this market it's harder to stop it completely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ET1SSJonota

always_alone said:


> I think you've misunderstood my point here, because in no way am I trying to suggest that a penis is inferior to a vibrator. Personally, I can't stand vibrators because I find them incessant and numbing.
> 
> My point was more about how women in porn are portrayed as being super ecstatic and into whatever it is he is doing, no matter how bumbling, ridiculous, or painful. You can often see pain in the eyes of the actress, even as she is faking her orgasm.
> 
> And this is a role model of good sex for those who are using porn as an educational tool.
> 
> As for the women as props -- that is most porn (that I've seen) in a nutshell. Only in rare circumstances is she ever portrayed as actually having sexual desires, interests, or needs of her own. She is just a bod splayed out for male gratification.


While I can agree on most points concerning what porn can constitute, what YOU proffered was what messages men (specifically men on TAM) have taken from porn. 

I was simply trying to illustrate it goes both ways. I feel inferior to said equipment. I feel like my wife would rather have that than me (even though she will "allow" me to have her). 

I constantly hear/read things about women being "unsatisfied" because her man can't last 30 minutes orally or PIV, but if he's trying to compete with a little electric buzzer GOOD F'ING LUCK. I find it to be not unlike the "Death Grip" ED addicted porn addicts sometimes get. That does not mean that every man who looks at porn feels ANY of those terrible things. Some women like rape fantasy and rape porn: does that mean they actually want to get raped?


----------



## always_alone

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I fail to see the similarity.
> 
> You are equating real life situations that could evolve into affairs with.... what exactly, watching porn?
> 
> And not to mention that in such threads those men are told that what they are feeling may just be insecurity and overposessiveness, if there is really nothing to be disturbed and no inappropriate stuff. These are things told by other men. So, hmmm.


And I've seen women told that they should dress to please their man, and that they shouldn't wear clothes that are too sexy when not in his sight. And that they should be concerned about his feelings and act accordingly. 

And yes, I am comparing these things to porn because like it or not, they're on a continuum. I've seen some argue that webcams are totally cool because they are "just porn" and not "in person". I've seen some claim that strippers are totally cool because it's "just a lap dance", not sex. People will justify anything that they want to do, and will use exactly the same excuses: it's not about you, it's meaningless, it isn't "real" sex, it isn't "really" cheating, it's none of your business what I do, so stop controlling me.

Granted porn is a pixelated person, as opposed to the one gyrating in your lap, but I've also seen men explain porn as their way to get "variety" and fulfill their "urge to spread their seed", and otherwise enjoy their sexual attraction to others. 

If this is understood to be acceptable for both parties in the relationship, well then great. But let's not pretend that it isn't a step towards integrating sexual gratification with others into a relationship.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

always_alone said:


> And I've seen women told that they should dress to please their man, and that they shouldn't wear clothes that are too sexy when not in his sight. And that they should be concerned about his feelings and act accordingly.
> 
> And yes, I am comparing these things to porn because like it or not, they're on a continuum. I've seen some argue that webcams are totally cool because they are "just porn" and not "in person". I've seen some claim that strippers are totally cool because it's "just a lap dance", not sex. People will justify anything that they want to do, and will use exactly the same excuses: it's not about you, it's meaningless, it isn't "real" sex, it isn't "really" cheating, it's none of your business what I do, so stop controlling me.
> 
> Granted porn is a pixelated person, as opposed to the one gyrating in your lap, but I've also seen men explain porn as their way to get "variety" and fulfill their "urge to spread their seed", and otherwise enjoy their sexual attraction to others.
> 
> If this is understood to be acceptable for both parties in the relationship, well then great. But let's not pretend that it isn't a step towards integrating sexual gratification with others into a relationship.


Certainly there are levels of control issued in every relationship. As for clothes, I wager more men get henpecked about their clothes and appearance than women do (anecdotal - so pointless point, I know). Granted, culturally (at least my experience), more women seem to be interested in things to keep their appearance up than men do. 
Conflating actual interaction with another live human being with a pulse and porn is complete apples to oranges. Is there seriously a fear that the man might go meet the porn star and initiate something? There is CLEARLY that fear with another real person seeking to satisfy their needs with them. Again, if someone watches a movie with their favorite star and then masturbates that night to the memories, how is that different? Or are we just against masturbation completely? That isn't a step towards another relationship at all.


----------



## always_alone

ET1SSJonota said:


> I constantly hear/read things about women being "unsatisfied" because her man can't last 30 minutes orally or PIV, but if he's trying to compete with a little electric buzzer GOOD F'ING LUCK. I find it to be not unlike the "Death Grip" ED addicted porn addicts sometimes get. That does not mean that every man who looks at porn feels ANY of those terrible things. Some women like rape fantasy and rape porn: does that mean they actually want to get raped?


Have to agree, I wouldn't want to compete with a vibrator either! I've never liked them, myself, but I thought it was just me. From what I've been reading lately, though, it sounds like they really can reduce a woman's ability to experience pleasure with human sex. Kinda tragic, IMO, in the same way as the death grip phenomenon.

I also agree that just because a lot (!) of porn sends terrible messages that anyone who watches necessarily receives them or thinks that way. I don't even think that all pornography (defined as depictions or writing with sexually explicit scenes) sends those messages. But the blanket "men like naked chicks and women should just get over that" is obtuse and entirely misses the point of why some might find porn objectionable.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

always_alone said:


> Have to agree, I wouldn't want to compete with a vibrator either! I've never liked them, myself, but I thought it was just me. From what I've been reading lately, though, it sounds like they really can reduce a woman's ability to experience pleasure with human sex. Kinda tragic, IMO, in the same way as the death grip phenomenon.
> 
> I also agree that just because a lot (!) of porn sends terrible messages that anyone who watches necessarily receives them or thinks that way. I don't even think that all pornography (defined as depictions or writing with sexually explicit scenes) sends those messages. But the blanket "men like naked chicks and women should just get over that" is obtuse and entirely misses the point of why some might find porn objectionable.


I can agree with most of what you have there. One thing I find in a lot of cases is when a statement seems to not to quite cover it, or seems deflective, it is because it is hard to elucidate the real reason, but they have a general idea that what they are doing is ok, and that being badgered about it should be defended. That's not always the case, clearly.


----------



## always_alone

ET1SSJonota said:


> Conflating actual interaction with another live human being with a pulse and porn is complete apples to apples. Is there seriously a fear that the man might go meet the porn star and initiate something? There is CLEARLY that fear with another real person seeking to satisfy their needs with them. Again, if someone watches a movie with their favorite star and then masturbates that night to the memories, how is that different? Or are we just against masturbation completely? That isn't a step towards another relationship at all.


No, only the rare and truly obsessed individual would ever go to meet their favourite porn star, so it isn't as if it is cheating on that level. But the amount of energy one invests in fantasies outside of the relationship can do quite a bit of damage to it.

This is not to say that we shouldn't fantasize. Far from it. Nor is it to say that we shouldn't masturbate. I'm not even suggesting that we forsake all pornographic or erotic depictions.

I do think it's important to keep one's feet firmly planted in the ground, be honest with one's partner about the appropriate boundaries for that relationship, and mindful of the social and personal costs of one's activities.


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> I think you've misunderstood my point here, because in no way am I trying to suggest that a penis is inferior to a vibrator. Personally, I can't stand vibrators because I find them incessant and numbing.
> 
> My point was more about how women in porn are portrayed as being super ecstatic and into whatever it is he is doing, no matter how bumbling, ridiculous, or painful. You can often see pain in the eyes of the actress, even as she is faking her orgasm.


And the forensics team on _CSI_ is shown as being the lead investigators in any case, questioning suspects, performing the duties of the detectives sitting next to them, and being a small police force unto themselves. I'm not sure i understand your point about a work of fiction being an idealized version of reality rather than a fully accurate portrayal of reality.



> And this is a role model of good sex for those who are using porn as an educational tool.


I've said it before, but it bears repeating: anyone using any work of fiction as such an educational tool is foolish.



> As for the women as props -- that is most porn (that I've seen) in a nutshell. Only in rare circumstances is she ever portrayed as actually having sexual desires, interests, or needs of her own. She is just a bod splayed out for male gratification.


An argument can certainly be made for such an interpretation, at least in some of the sub-genres.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Grayson said:


> I've said it before, but it bears repeating: anyone using any work of fiction as such an educational tool is foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> An argument can certainly be made for such an interpretation, at least in some of the sub-genres.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There have been threads on this forum with many men claiming that porn is educational. 

The majority of porn has very little to no real story line these days, and women absolutely are displayed as purely [email protected]*able objects.


----------



## itskaren

sparkyjim said:


> I have been lurking here for a while and I do write extensively on other forums.
> 
> It's a recurring theme - here and in other places - women don't want their men to watch porn, the men do. The other day I even saw an argument made by a guy that a wife who wanted to watch it with her hubby was intruding on his alone time!!!
> 
> Anyway, I'm no prude, but I am open minded and I have come to see that modern day porn is probably one of the most destructive things to come along. It can affect marriages, it can affect relationships, it can affect both sexes self esteem, it causes sexual dissatisfaction, it can even lead to ED and difficulty orgasming.
> 
> My question is do men think that they should be allowed to watch porn - and why?
> 
> _*EDIT NOTE : After seven pages of responses I realized that I could reword my question.
> 
> I meant to ask if men think that they are entitled to watch porn - even if his partner wishes that he would not.*_
> 
> My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.
> 
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


I am just baffled. I have no problem with porn. Unless it becomes a compulsion like anything else eg. handwashing .... then it is not a problem in my opinion.


----------



## always_alone

Grayson said:


> I've said it before, but it bears repeating: anyone using any work of fiction as such an educational tool is foolish.


I agree that porn makes a poor educational tool, and should not be taken as such. But, at the same time, on this very thread, at least one poster pointed to the valuable trick he learned on porn. 

What did some other men learn? That their wives aren't as enthusiastic as the porn stars, aren't as attractive as the porn stars, aren't as willing to go for anal, aren't as kinky, aren't responsive enough, aren't vocal enough, aren't as willing to gratify his needs without demanding attention to their own, require too much time and energy to help them to orgasm ...

and so on.


----------



## Thundarr

Some arguments I understand. If a guy wacks off and doesn't want sex with his partner then sure that's wrong. 

But a lot of the time it's just control. I don't understand lot's of things about women like why they love to shop or watch life time movies but I don't try to control it or shut it down because I don't have to understand it. It's not my place to tell my wife not to read 50 shades because I don't understand it.


----------



## always_alone

*LittleDeer* said:


> There have been threads on this forum with many men claiming that porn is educational.
> 
> The majority of porn has very little to no real story line these days, and women absolutely are displayed as purely [email protected]*able objects.


Indeed, on another thread, I had a large contingent of male posters insisting that the problem is not with porn because all men always view women as purely [email protected]*able objects, and moreover, that I was anti-male for seeing a problem with this.


----------



## OrangeCrush

ET1SSJonota said:


> Is there seriously a fear that the man might go meet the porn star and initiate something? There is CLEARLY that fear with another real person seeking to satisfy their needs with them. Again, if someone watches a movie with their favorite star and then masturbates that night to the memories, how is that different?


it's different because the porn industry has such a record for exploiting desperate people in truly horrible ways. One of our housemates here in LA works with people who are trying to get out of the sex industry, and the things that these people have been through and suffered at the hands of higher-ups in the industry are devastating. Knowing about how real people are traumatized and exploited for profit and entertainment, it would make me sick to watch porn. 

I don't know anything about what mainstream actors/celebrities go through, and I'm sure the mainstream media industry has its dark side too, but I would be incredibly surprised if it was anything near as dark as what goes on behind the scenes in the adult entertainment industry. 

Dismissing people who have problems with porn viewing as 'insecure' or trying to sum it up as 'wtf are you afraid of, it's just pixels' is easy but inaccurate. Several people in this thread have stated valid concerns and reasons for their anti-porn stance that have nothing to do with 'fear that he might like porn stars better than me'.


----------



## Grayson

*LittleDeer* said:


> There have been threads on this forum with many men claiming that porn is educational.


And I've said otherwise...where, exactly?

I repeat: anyone using *any* work of fiction as their educational tool for how the real world works is foolish. There may be occasional bits of information that the viewer can find useful in their daily life, but fiction is just that: fiction.



> The majority of porn has very little to no real story line these days, and women absolutely are displayed as purely [email protected]*able objects.


And men are portrayed in much the same way. Again: it's fiction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

This isn't about control or coercion. A person makes the choice, no one is FORCING them to abstain from porn. If he's totally ok with her being slightly repulsed by him or feeling sad, then more power to him.

I have never told my husband that he CAN'T. I have told him I wish he wouldn't. I have told him I just can't find him sexy when he does. 

I don't understand how it is NOT controlling for a man to ask his wife to perform a variety of sexual positions. No one tells him that he shouldn't ask for frequent and interesting sex. In fact, people are outraged on his behalf. But, we women who are asking our husbands to skip the porn are being controlling. We get put down and insulted and told we are being pissy and mean. What sense does that make?


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> I agree that porn makes a poor educational tool, and should not be taken as such. But, at the same time, on this very thread, at least one poster pointed to the valuable trick he learned on porn.


And, as I've stated before, it's still possible to glean the occasional useful bit of information from fiction. But, using fiction as one's sole basis of learning how to navigate the world is foolhardy.



> What did some other men learn? That their wives aren't as enthusiastic as the porn stars, aren't as attractive as the porn stars, aren't as willing to go for anal, aren't as kinky, aren't responsive enough, aren't vocal enough, aren't as willing to gratify his needs without demanding attention to their own, require too much time and energy to help them to orgasm ...
> 
> and so on.


I'm not sure why I have to keep saying this, especially since I just said I a few lines ago, but....

Anyone using fiction as the yardstick by which they measure reality is being foolish.

Let's apply this same logic to other entertainment genres:

Just last night, I learned that friends that hang out together in a bar are always ready with sharp quips and one will plan an elaborate bachelor party for her formerly womanizing fiancé that includes his stripper ex-fiancée, fear of death and Ralph Macchio.

Then I learned that forensic anthropologists regularly partner with their FBI agent baby-daddies to solve murders while being stalked by brilliant sociopaths with unlimited resources.

Next, I learned that mystery writers will be allowed to shadow homicide detectives indefinitely for "research," assisting the police in their investigations and going into hazardous situations with them.

Oh...and in all of those instances, I learned that the world is entirely populated by perfectly beautiful people.

As I type this, I'm learning that university scientists are all socially inept nerds who have beautiful wives and girlfriends, and that the Cheesecake Factory is an affordable casual dining restaurant...so much so, that one can dine there multiple nights a week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## always_alone

Grayson said:


> And, as I've stated before, it's still possible to glean the occasional useful bit of information from fiction. But, using fiction as one's sole basis of learning how to navigate the world is foolhardy.


The one difference between your examples and mine is that yours are all gleaned from the messages being sent out on TV shows, whereas mine are gleaned from message received by real men complaining about their wives on TAM and elsewhere.


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> The one difference between your examples and mine is that yours are all gleaned from the messages being sent out on TV shows, whereas mine are gleaned from message received by real men complaining about their wives on TAM and elsewhere.


Yet you maintain that these complaints are born of their views of the world (in this case, sex) being formed from watching a piece of fiction. See how quickly you dismissed the possibility of my views possibly having been shaped by entertainment?

Now, I've said multiple times that I don't dispute the existence of such occurrences. They're still foolish to see fiction as life lessons. I simply maintain that they're not the norm let alone the majority, while the nature of TAM tends to skew our perceptions as a forum such as this is built around posting and discussing problems - both real and imagined - with relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just got it 55

AnnieAsh said:


> He's watching it and masturbating. He does it so vigorously that I have found scabs on his penis and red, raw areas. He is not taking care of me, I'm getting about 50% of the sex and affection I crave. He cannot masturbate for 3 hours AND have sex with his wife. He just doesn't have the time or the energy.
> 
> And to say that we get "pissy" is rather hurtful. I don't get pissy. I feel hurt, neglected, unloved, empty and resentful. I could walk outside, find a good looking dude and rock his world, but I CANNOT. Because I am married to a man who compulsively masturbates.
> 
> He used to be the sexiest thing on 2 legs (Will Ferrell notwithstanding) and now I feel sorry for him.


Here it is for me .I think I had a problem with porn. I used it for release. I did in part neglect my wife to an extent. The reasons are irrelevant .I did hide it shamefully. So that told me something.

I gave it up cold turkey. I made my wife a commitment to give her 100% of my sexual energy. No more giving it a grab either.
The real thing is the real thing. Don’t miss it at all the world has turned for us in all ways.

Watch it don’t watch it but your real world will be better without it. But you do have the right to choose


----------



## Thundarr

OrangeCrush said:


> it's different because the porn industry has such a record for exploiting desperate people in truly horrible ways. One of our housemates here in LA works with people who are trying to get out of the sex industry, and the things that these people have been through and suffered at the hands of higher-ups in the industry are devastating. Knowing about how real people are traumatized and exploited for profit and entertainment, it would make me sick to watch porn.


This is the epitome of blame shifting. They can stop today, they can stop tomorrow but they choose to trade sex for a paycheck. No one is responsible for their continued choices except themselves. It's a ridiculous argument.

Suffered at the hands of higher-ups . Who are higher-ups? The female porn stars probably make more money than anyone directing them. So we're saying the same thing. They suffer at the hands of themselves.


----------



## Thundarr

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't understand how it is NOT controlling for a man to ask his wife to perform a variety of sexual positions. No one tells him that he shouldn't ask for frequent and interesting sex. In fact, people are outraged on his behalf. But, we women who are asking our husbands to skip the porn are being controlling. We get put down and insulted and told we are being pissy and mean. What sense does that make?


It's not controlling for a women to ask her guy not to watch porn but it's a small group of men to feel like it's a reasonable request. It's also not controlling to ask for frequency of sex or variety either but more women than not probably say nope I'm not doing anal or whatever.


----------



## Thundarr

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is for me .I think I had a problem with porn. I used it for release. I did in part neglect my wife to an extent. The reasons are irrelevant .I did hide it shamefully. So that told me something.
> 
> I gave it up cold turkey. I made my wife a commitment to give her 100% of my sexual energy. No more giving it a grab either.
> The real thing is the real thing. Don’t miss it at all the world has turned for us in all ways.
> 
> Watch it don’t watch it but your real world will be better without it. But you do have the right to choose


This makes perfect sense. It was interfering with your marriage so you decided porn doesn't have a place in your life. I rarely watch porn and then it's with my wife to give us a little variety but it's a choice. If I still had my drive from years back then I'd either watch porn or I'd expect more frequency of sex with my wife. To be honest I think she'd be fine with more sex and she'd be fine with "don't ask/don't tell" porn.


----------



## AnnieAsh

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is for me .I think I had a problem with porn. I used it for release. I did in part neglect my wife to an extent. The reasons are irrelevant .I did hide it shamefully. So that told me something.
> 
> I gave it up cold turkey. I made my wife a commitment to give her 100% of my sexual energy. No more giving it a grab either.
> The real thing is the real thing. Don’t miss it at all the world has turned for us in all ways.
> 
> Watch it don’t watch it but your real world will be better without it. But you do have the right to choose


Thanks. That sounds awesome for you and your wife! Doesn't feel like I have a choice sometimes. 


Thundarr said:


> It's not controlling for a women to ask her guy not to watch porn but it's a small group of men to feel like it's a reasonable request. It's also not controlling to ask for frequency of sex or variety either but more women than not probably say nope I'm not doing anal or whatever.


There were pages of men saying that it WAS controlling. Like 7 pages...


----------



## Thundarr

AnnieAsh said:


> Thanks. That sounds awesome for you and your wife! Doesn't feel like I have a choice sometimes.
> 
> There were pages of men saying that it WAS controlling. Like 7 pages...


I hear you Annie. I may have even said it's about control on one comment. Context matter I think. Like any other thing, if it's interfering with the marriage (I don't mean merely because it's disliked) then it's a problem and it not controlling at all for a wife to say your porn habit is tearing at our marriage. When I think it's tearing down the marriage is when the guy is unavailable intimately to his wife because he prefers porn over her. On the other hand if the guy still wants sex as much or more often than his wife then I think it's controlling to say don't watch porn but I have a headache.


----------



## OrangeCrush

Thundarr said:


> This is the epitome of blame shifting. They can stop today, they can stop tomorrow but they choose to trade sex for a paycheck. No one is responsible for their continued choices except themselves. It's a ridiculous argument.
> 
> Suffered at the hands of higher-ups . Who are higher-ups? The female porn stars probably make more money than anyone directing them. So we're saying the same thing. They suffer at the hands of themselves.


It's important to be respectful of other people's feelings and views even if you don't share them. 

Also, it's not a ridiculous argument, because it's not at argument at all. There's nothing to argue. I'm not interested in attempting to change your mind; simply stating my views as another idea in a thread of many. Consider it or leave it; makes no difference to me.


----------



## Thundarr

OrangeCrush said:


> It's important to be respectful of other people's feelings and views even if you don't share them.
> 
> Also, it's not a ridiculous argument, because it's not at argument at all. There's nothing to argue. I'm not interested in attempting to change your mind; simply stating my views as another idea in a thread of many. Consider it or leave it; makes no difference to me.


I respect you and everyone else here. I just don't respect arguments based on blame shifting. There's plenty of good arguments against porn. Some I even agree with. But victimizing people who not only are in the industry but choose to stay there is just not one of them. Why is the argument ridiculous (Deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd)? Because it's based on everyone assuming responsibility for choices that other people make and continue to make. Who am I or you to speak for those people making their own choices? It's not my place and it's not yours so yes it's a ridiculous.

I'll re clarify the definition of ridiculous (Deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd). So yea the argument invited derision or mockery because there's not logic backing it up.


----------



## sparkyjim

Thundarr said:


> On the other hand if the guy still wants sex as much or more often than his wife....



I think that you are trying to reach out and understand Annie so I am not pulling this quote out to knock you at all.

But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. His use of porn creates a false construct of a "problem"


----------



## OrangeCrush

Thundarr said:


> I respect you and everyone else here. I just don't respect arguments based on blame shifting. There's plenty of good arguments against porn. Some I even agree with. But victimizing people who not only are in the industry but choose to stay there is just not one of them. Why is the argument ridiculous (Deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd)? Because it's based on everyone assuming responsibility for choices that other people make and continue to make. Who am I or you to speak for those people making their own choices? It's not my place and it's not yours so yes it's a ridiculous.
> 
> I'll re clarify the definition of ridiculous (Deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd). So yea the argument invited derision or mockery because there's not logic backing it up.


again- not an 'argument', period. My opinions and values are my own; I am not interested in convincing you or anyone else to see things my way.


----------



## sparkyjim

just got it 55 said:


> Here it is for me .I think I had a problem with porn. I used it for release. I did in part neglect my wife to an extent. The reasons are irrelevant .I did hide it shamefully. So that told me something.
> 
> I gave it up cold turkey. I made my wife a commitment to give her 100% of my sexual energy. No more giving it a grab either.
> The real thing is the real thing. Don’t miss it at all the world has turned for us in all ways.
> 
> Watch it don’t watch it but your real world will be better without it. But you do have the right to choose



Absolutely... this is right. There is a growing movement out there to give up all porn. Men are attempting to give it up. I don't know how big it is or haw many men are trying to abstain but they do write about it and they do give positive assessments of their lives without porn use. And in your case MB also. You can attest to the positive affect this has had on your life.


----------



## sparkyjim

Deejo said:


> So ...
> 
> 
> I'm going to make a suggestion to the OP. Your thread would be much more effective if you chose to spell out how it impacted YOU, and your partner. The damage it caused. How you responded, how she responded and what your 'research' consisted of ... how you weaned yourself off, and the benefits you derived from choosing to end this practice.


I am taking this to heart. It's going to take a while to put all of this together, but I am working on it.

In the meantime I think that although there has been a lot of arguing but there has been a lot of good discussion too.


----------



## Thundarr

sparkyjim said:


> I think that you are trying to reach out and understand Annie so I am not pulling this quote out to knock you at all.
> 
> *But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn*. His use of porn creates a false construct of a "problem"


I suppose we just disagree on the highlighted part. It seems more prevalent for guys to watch porn and masterbate which I only think is acceptable if they're taking care of business with their girl as well. I do however agree that many who watch porn don't have an accurate view of intimacy and sex and many of them do in fact fall back on the same arguments as me and others who rarely watch porn but feel like it's not so bad.


----------



## sparkyjim

"But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. "


I wasn't giving my opinion when I said this. This comes from a few other sites which deal with porn issues, and from other researchers, who reported these sort of findings as anecdotal responses from participants.

But "in my opinion" I also went through this very same thing. Getting rid of the porn brought my desire for sex down to a more reasonable and HAPPY level. I was going to write healthy but I thought that "happy" more accurately described ME


----------



## BjornFree

sparkyjim said:


> "But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. "
> 
> 
> I wasn't giving my opinion when I said this. This comes from a few other sites which deal with porn issues, and from other researchers, who reported these sort of findings as anecdotal responses from participants.
> 
> But "in my opinion" I also went through this very same thing. Getting rid of the porn brought my desire for sex down to a more reasonable and HAPPY level. I was going to write healthy but I thought that "happy" more accurately described ME


You were addicted to porn. Don't lump all men into that category. I like porn, so I watch it. Not all of us spend hours upon hours beating off to porn when we can have sex with our wives.


----------



## sparkyjim

BjornFree said:


> You were addicted to porn. Don't lump all men into that category. I like porn, so I watch it. Not all of us spend hours upon hours beating off to porn when we can have sex with our wives.



I believe that is why I said "some men..."


----------



## Thundarr

sparkyjim said:


> "But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. "
> 
> 
> I wasn't giving my opinion when I said this. This comes from a few other sites which deal with porn issues, and from other researchers, who reported these sort of findings as anecdotal responses from participants.
> 
> But "in my opinion" I also went through this very same thing. Getting rid of the porn brought my desire for sex down to a more reasonable and HAPPY level. I was going to write healthy but I thought that "happy" more accurately described ME


sparkyjim,
Knowledge is power; Provide links if you have time please. Of course I could just hit Google and see what I find.


----------



## sparkyjim

I was just about to go to bed. I am also working on doing just that.

I can give you one quick link with a lot of information

Your Brain On Porn | Evolution has not prepared your brain for today's Internet porn

You could spend days there...


----------



## Faithful Wife

SparkyJim...thanks for this thread. I haven't bothered to read the last 15 pages or so, it is just the same old, same old. But I appreciate your honesty and bravery for posting it.

I know that because I'm a woman it will be assumed that men here know my position on porn (ie: Shadow Nirvana...you said something about my hamster, even though you have no idea what my actual views and thoughts are on this matter you just seem to assume "she's a female therefore she shares the same thoughts that every other female has buzz bleep no variations allowed buzz burp cannot compute variations..."), but honestly, my position is not the same as most I've seen here, neither females or males. 

However, in general, I feel that anything that harms the love your spouse has for you is something you should agree not to do. So to anyone who says "yeah well if my wife would have sex with me yada yada yada" I say also the same thing to the wife...ie: you are harming his love for you by not making love to him.

If a couple can't even get on the same page about sex and not hurt each other with sex (or with lack of sex, with porn, or whatever)...then I'm all for getting divorced. I see no reason to stay in a mutually harmful marriage.

Sex and money are the two top reasons people get divorced. That makes perfect sense to me and instead of trying so hard to hurt each other, why not just move on and find what would be beneficial for each person instead? Also this would resolve all the whining about it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

I get quite sick of being dismissed merely because I am a female. Dudes should work on that. 

And if I see the words rationalization hamster one more time, someone is getting a cast iron skillet upside the head.


----------



## itskaren

I like porn sometimes and enjoy watching it with my husband with a glass of wine or two. However, I would prefer to go to a garage sale.... strange but true.


----------



## LongWalk

mablenc said:


> I have not seen any of these threads:
> 
> Help my wife is addicted to romance novels
> 
> Romance novels ruined my marriage
> 
> Do all women like to read romance novels?
> 
> Help!!! I found out my wife only reads romance novels about men with 14 inch..how can I compete? I'm devastated
> 
> Found out she reads romance novels, don't know what to do
> 
> I want a divorce! Just found a ton of romance novels in her kindle
> 
> My wife asked me to grow my hair and dye it blonde and wants me to role play as Flabio
> 
> :rofl:


Romance novels are a type of emotional porn. Even hanging out on TAM can be an addiction that fills an emotional vacuum in real life. Romance paperbacks and TAM threads do not have the same degree of impact on health that porn does IMO.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Back to the topic at hand. Porn is sexual acts depicted by media for usage by consumers, yes? Okay, so basically comedy films make you laugh, drama movies make you cry, you watch other people live their lives in TV series, and porn gives you sexual release. I don't go out of the cinema after a comedy film, thinking I want to live my life getting constantly hit in the face with custard pies. I don't finish watching HIMYM and let fantasies of life as Ted(who is btw the ultimate beta schlub, herbling and doughboy). So why is it automatically assumed for a man to be completely engulfed in porn, while his wife is burning with passion for him but he just won't engage her in holy matrimony.


I laugh with other people IRL, sometimes I cry too, and I'm sure my SO laughs and chats and lunches with others etc... But he doesn't have sex with them. So this comparison is inadequate. Oranges and apples. 



> Second, ladies, we all know why you watch that movie where the male protagonist is a lost but very rugged hunk who might just be able to find some direction with the love of a woman. Or that TV series where that lean, muscular and dominating vampire is just so mesmerizing. Or read that mainstream light erotica book with the BDSM features. But you read those for entertainment, you aren't dirty like those male pigs


So now you presume to know what I watch and read and why. weird because that doesn't describe me, and even if it did, if my SO had an objection to that because he honestly believed it was harmful for whatever the reasons, I wouldn't dismiss him. 


> And last, if something is really a dealbreaker for you, YOU are the one who should be pressing the issue, not wait for it to be presented to you. But the problem is it generally isn't a deal breaker, it's just a way to control your spouse( this isn't directed at you AnnieAsh, the way you described it sounds this is a very real problem in your marriage.) Do you know what is really unattractive? Losing your frame and doing something just because your wife wants you to.[


/QUOTE]
It is a deal breaker for me, for so many reasons. I've never been turned down for a relationship because of it, not had issues with porn in my relationship. 

I think it's an important issue, it effects many marriages and I think women need to know that if they have a problem with porn, that they are not alone and that's OK. it's not controlling, it's about having good boundaries and being respected, many men don't like it because they want to have a tantrum, stomp their feet and do as they like, not unlike they mindset of a wayward spouse. JMO


----------



## LongWalk

When I my marriage was going bad my ex cut off our previously great sex life to try and get me to behave differently. I don't think that was a good way to strengthen our marriage. But instead of dealing with the problems face on I found porn as an outlet. "Fvck her, I can still get off on my own," I thought.

In truth porn creates a reward cycle in the mind that is addictive and destructive just like any other addiction. I can handle alcohol easily. I know that my middle-aged liver is good for a beer now and then. More just makes me tired and disturbs my sleep. For another person alcohol might be the killer. I love to eat but I don't overeat because I can control sugar and fat consumption. Different people, different weaknesses.

Modern society limits access to alcohol through taxation, age limits, zoning, etc. Junk food is free for abuse. Porn is in between. There are controls to some degree. You cannot sit in a public place like the airport and flaunt porn on your iPad so that the family sitting next to you can see it. They will call the security guard and if you don't turn it off, you'll miss your plane. So much for the human right to view porn.

For me personally commercial porn is utterly uninteresting. Amateur or realness is sexy. And it is sexy because there is some emotion. That component of sex is more important that the mere physical. I don't find wet sex arousing. I mean pee is pee, not a wet vagina, but if I loved a woman and it turn out that squirting got her off, I would try to get into. And maybe the fact it excited her might change my view.

One bad thing about amateur porn is that boyfriends, husbands and especially ex-partners have spread their private photos on the web. In some cases, clearly for revenge, e.g., site that expose private photos along with Facebook links. Those sites are very popular. They are debated in the media. Pink meth, the site name says it all. The founder of _Is anybody up_ or whatever it was called was a rich celebrity.

So a big part of porn involves exploitation and violation. And at some level guys with any emotional intelligence can read into what is happening. The 17-year-old teen girl in love photos everything with the iPhone pointed at the bathroom mirror. She loves wants to prove that there is something special between the two of them. She even sticks a finger up her butt; it's that special. She can take this risk with him, even though she knows it is a stupid risk, the very surrender to into vulnerability validates the love even more.

All the men who consume these pictures get off on the foolish love in her eyes. At some level they wish that emotion were directed at them.

I'll bet you beer, that all across America there people who have troubles, like houses that are upside down, kids who not doing well in school, etc. whose sex lives aren't so good anymore. Porn and other escapism, e.g., online gaming, poker, aren't helping them get their shı† together.

Better to take the dog for a walk for an hour and think about life, instead jerking off for an hour before the wife gets home from the store.

I am not religious and have no moralistic objection to porn per se. Sugar is not evil but it causes obesity, diabetes and wallbouncing. Porn is the same.

Thank you to the poster who led me to this thread. Hope you take action instead of waiting. Do something creative to end it. Or simply demand treatment as a condition for continuing your marriage. Delay cannot make things better. You are lying to yourself if you think being nice can succeed. People in affairs need 180, NC, exposure, etc. to wake them up. Getting control of porn addiction cannot be that different.

Can porn be fun in good relationship. Sure. Just like a glass of wine with a good meal. But some people cannot and will not stop until the bottle is empty.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

always_alone said:


> And I've seen women told that they should dress to please their man, and that they shouldn't wear clothes that are too sexy when not in his sight. And that they should be concerned about his feelings and act accordingly.
> 
> *And yes, I am comparing these things to porn because like it or not, they're on a continuum. I've seen some argue that webcams are totally cool because they are "just porn" and not "in person". I've seen some claim that strippers are totally cool because it's "just a lap dance", not sex. People will justify anything that they want to do, and will use exactly the same excuses: it's not about you, it's meaningless, it isn't "real" sex, it isn't "really" cheating, it's none of your business what I do, so stop controlling me.*
> 
> Granted porn is a pixelated person, as opposed to the one gyrating in your lap, but I've also seen men explain porn as their way to get "variety" and fulfill their "urge to spread their seed", and otherwise enjoy their sexual attraction to others.
> 
> If this is understood to be acceptable for both parties in the relationship, well then great. But let's not pretend that it isn't a step towards integrating sexual gratification with others into a relationship.


Exactly. If you want something bad enough, you can always find a way to justify it.


----------



## LongWalk

> ... webcams are totally cool because they are "just porn" and not "in person".


Most people consider live webcams more that porn. There is a real person there, a webcam prostitute. You can have an emotional relationship with one. Emotion is what she sells. So I can well imagine a wife or girlfriend drawing the line.

One thing I've never understood. Prostitution is illegal in many places but making porn films is not. What's the difference? Is someone holds up camera while having sex with a prostitute is it suddenly not prostitution because a documentary program is being filmed?

Also, I wonder if porn were illegal, would more men cheat?


----------



## just got it 55

sparkyjim said:


> "But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. "
> 
> 
> I wasn't giving my opinion when I said this. This comes from a few other sites which deal with porn issues, and from other researchers, who reported these sort of findings as anecdotal responses from participants.
> 
> But "in my opinion" I also went through this very same thing. Getting rid of the porn brought my desire for sex down to a more reasonable and HAPPY level. I was going to write healthy but I thought that "happy" more accurately described ME


Getting off the porn has made me want my wife more 40 years total together we are both better at sex in part because my head (the one on my shoulders ) is now fully in the game.She never caught me but I am sure she had her suspicions and maybe hers is to

She knows that I am fully engaged and really into her and she is returning the passion and energy we both want more and more every day it seems.She sent me a text the other day saying how "we have not had each other for 2 whole days"In the past we would go weeks without it.

Some men may feel that it does not interfer with thier sex life with thier wives. But in the abstract it's unavoidable to the sub consience. I just can't see it not having a negative impact at least on some level.

I would always have thoughts of watching porn with her. But I think it would be more for me than for her.So I don't think I would offer to bring it into our lives.If she in the off chance asked for it I am not sure how I would feel.

She is so sweet and I never saw it *BUT* to my delight she could now act with the best of them in the industry.

Lucky Lucky Me


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

LongWalk said:


> Most people consider live webcams more that porn. There is a real person there, a webcam prostitute. You can have an emotional relationship with one. Emotion is what she sells. So I can well imagine a wife or girlfriend drawing the line.
> 
> One thing I've never understood. Prostitution is illegal in many places but making porn films is not. What's the difference? Is someone holds up camera while having sex with a prostitute is it suddenly not prostitution because a documentary program is being filmed?
> 
> *Also, I wonder if porn were illegal, would more men cheat?*


So porn is a substitute for cheating? :banghead:


----------



## JCD

Maricha75 said:


> Well, see, therein lies the issue... they'd have to be masturbating in the first place in order to be masturbating to these women. And, not every man even masturbates.
> 
> To the OP, not all men ever feel that way about porn. Some choose not to watch it because they are morally opposed to it. And, they actually do stand by what they say. Granted, they are in the minority, but they do exist.


Do you realize exactly how tiny a minority of men are who don't masturbate? Honestly?


----------



## MissMe

*LittleDeer* said:


> *I laugh with other people IRL, sometimes I cry too, and I'm sure my SO laughs and chats and lunches with others etc... But he doesn't have sex with them. So this comparison is inadequate. Oranges and apples.*
> 
> 
> So now you presume to know what I watch and read and why. weird because that doesn't describe me, and even if it did, if my SO had an objection to that because he honestly believed it was harmful for whatever the reasons, I wouldn't dismiss him.
> /QUOTE]
> It is a deal breaker for me, for so many reasons. I've never been turned down for a relationship because of it, not had issues with porn in my relationship.
> 
> *I think it's an important issue, it effects many marriages and I think women need to know that if they have a problem with porn, that they are not alone and that's OK. it's not controlling, it's about having good boundaries and being respected,* many men don't like it because they want to have a tantrum, stomp their feet and do as they like, not unlike they mindset of a wayward spouse. JMO


Agreed. And it often has nothing to do with being insecure, which is tossed out often when women say they don't like their men watching porn.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> My bet is that you do know some people who do misuse porn and other things and ignore their spouse due to this. Most people do not go public with what goes on behind closed doors in their homes.
> 
> I do know people who do this. I was married to one. Note the past tense.


There is a whole lot of 'stretch' in that term 'misuse'.

For some...heck MANY ladies, 'misuse' is 'one time more than I like or feel the SLIGHTEST bit threatened by'

Women, particularly on this issue, are very quick to throw around terms like 'misuse' and 'addiction' unfairly and inaccurately to paint her husband as a perv and the 'problem' in the marriage.

Well...maybe. Annie's husband sounds like a porn addict.

I have run across that term twice by nice little church ladies (don't mean to pick on church folks, but facts are facts).

In both cases, their husbands were labelled such by their wives and it was WIDELY broadcast. Gee...thanks ladies!

Now...I know these ladies. One of them was very nice and the other was a selfish b*tch (that is a professional assessment). But in both cases, these ladies were sort of the 'stand on my dignity' kind of women.

They had a WIDE menu of sexual offerings (Pick one from each column...but don't you DARE forget C)

Column A: Vaginal sex

Column B: 2x a week....unless it's that time of month, I'm mad at you, or something comes up at work...

Column C: Romantic gestures and chores.

And they had, to quote Little Deer *ABSOLUTELY SATISFYING SEX LIVES*

Were the husbands satisfied? "They should be! Do they think I'm a *****?"

Hmm...

She doesn't like oral. He doesn't like yard chores. But one is perverse and the other is 'just one of those things you have to do to keep the other spouse happy.'

Funny how that works...


----------



## Kobo

JCD said:


> Do you realize exactly how tiny a minority of men are who don't masturbate? Honestly?


In the reality that is the TAM Ladies' Lounge its sitting at around 60%


----------



## MissMe

JCD said:


> There is a whole lot of 'stretch' in that term 'misuse'.
> 
> ...........
> 
> *She doesn't like oral. He doesn't like yard chores. But one is perverse and the other is 'just one of those things you have to do to keep the other spouse happy.*'
> 
> Funny how that works...


Really? I mean....REALLY? Oral sex and yard work?


----------



## Kobo

sparkyjim said:


> I think that you are trying to reach out and understand Annie so I am not pulling this quote out to knock you at all.
> 
> But it is true that some men want sex more than their wife does BECAUSE they are using porn. His use of porn creates a false construct of a "problem"


quantify some


----------



## JCD

Let's turn this around a bit.

Many women here are asking 'why don't you just dump a wife who isn't into porn?'

Same question right back at them. Why isn't a wife who is 'not into her husband looking at porn' divorcing him?

Because the answer is obvious: a divorce is socially, fiscally, and emotionally devestating to everyone and FOR THE WOMEN, it is just not worth losing the investment in their marriage.

Which says right there that this is a minor issue...for the most part.

When a woman divorces her husband, obviously it's worked up to a MAJOR issue.

Now the obvious rebuttal is 'well, if it's no big deal, he'd do it for me'.

To which I answer "What issues does your husband care about which you won't budge on?" Because there are a few. A friend or relative he isn't fond of. A habit or hobby which 'defines' you that you won't quit. Whatever.

Don't you love him enough to drop that? Hmm.

Porn can become a major issue and I worry very much about the desensitizing element as well as sparkyjim. I am less adamant on the issue than he is.

a) If the wife is neglectful of her responsibilities

b) If you are seperated for long lengths of time. To paraphrase Paul: It's better to spank than cheat

c) It involves some acts which the wife will not or cannot indulge in. If I enjoy the idea of...whatever...facial or interracial or DDDD cup women and the wife isn't...ONCE IN A WHILE, an indulgence to rub that kink doesn't seem out of line.

d) To quickly rub one out when you are feeling particularly horny and the wife is too 'busy' to deal with the issue. It seems a standard woman line that they are _always_ ready willing and able...but in real life? No...they aren't. So rather than ask, get acerbically shot down and be frustrated, rub one out in quiet, feel better and get on with your day.


----------



## JCD

LouAnn Poovy said:


> So porn is a substitute for cheating? :banghead:


No. It is a means of sexual release. There are three means to get there

1) Spouse

2) Masturbation

3) Other person

So if the wife is keeping you on short rations, your needs don't suddenly change. You crave release.

While neither 2 or 3 is 'healthy' per se, one is CERTAINLY less offensive to the other spouse than the other.

And masturbation ALWAYS has an element of 'porn' in it if you define porn as fantasy.


----------



## JCD

MissMe said:


> Really? I mean....REALLY? Oral sex and yard work?


I would suggest to you that you consider how many HOURS it takes weekly to 

mow

trim

prune

and weed

a yard vs how long it takes to perform a bit of oral sex.

So....REALLY? She can't take 10 minutes out of her day a couple times a week to make me happy? TEN MINUTES?

I am using this as a hypothetical and not as a personal anecdote.

If both acts makes us equally happy, one person is getting a hell of a deal for the time spent and it isn't the husband.


----------



## MissMe

JCD said:


> Let's turn this around a bit.
> 
> Many women here are asking 'why don't you just dump a wife who isn't into porn?'
> 
> Same question right back at them. Why isn't a wife who is 'not into her husband looking at porn' divorcing him?
> 
> Because the answer is obvious: a divorce is socially, fiscally, and emotionally devestating to everyone and FOR THE WOMEN, it is just not worth losing the investment in their marriage.
> 
> Which says right there that this is a minor issue...for the most part.
> 
> When a woman divorces her husband, obviously it's worked up to a MAJOR issue.
> 
> Now the obvious rebuttal is 'well, if it's no big deal, he'd do it for me'.
> 
> To which I answer "What issues does your husband care about which you won't budge on?" Because there are a few. A friend or relative he isn't fond of. A habit or hobby which 'defines' you that you won't quit. Whatever.
> 
> Don't you love him enough to drop that? Hmm.
> 
> Porn can become a major issue and I worry very much about the desensitizing element as well as sparkyjim. I am less adamant on the issue than he is.
> 
> a) If the wife is neglectful of her responsibilities
> 
> b) If you are seperated for long lengths of time. *To paraphrase Paul: It's better to spank than cheat*
> 
> c) It involves some acts which the wife will not or cannot indulge in. If I enjoy the idea of...whatever...facial or interracial or DDDD cup women and the wife isn't...ONCE IN A WHILE, an indulgence to rub that kink doesn't seem out of line.
> 
> d) To quickly rub one out when you are feeling particularly horny and the wife is too 'busy' to deal with the issue. It seems a standard woman line that they are _always_ ready willing and able...but in real life? No...they aren't. So rather than ask, get acerbically shot down and be frustrated, rub one out in quiet, feel better and get on with your day.


Well yes it is. Most activities are better than cheating. Eating a hot dog, better than cheating! Cold shower, better than cheating! Walking the dog, better than cheating!


----------



## MissMe

JCD said:


> I would suggest to you that you consider how many HOURS it takes weekly to
> 
> mow
> 
> trim
> 
> prune
> 
> and weed
> 
> a yard vs how long it takes to perform a bit of oral sex.
> 
> So....REALLY? She can't take 10 minutes out of her day a couple times a week to make me happy? TEN MINUTES?
> 
> I am using this as a hypothetical and not as a personal anecdote.
> 
> If both acts makes us equally happy, one person is getting a hell of a deal for the time spent and it isn't the husband.


I agree, women and men BOTH should be sure their partner's are sexually satisfied. I'm of the same opinion, TEN MINUTES, you can't spare TEN MINUTES?? I just found comparing yard work and oral sex to be strange.


----------



## MissMe

JCD said:


> Do you realize exactly how tiny a minority of men are who don't masturbate? Honestly?


About the same as for women. :lol:


----------



## JCD

always_alone said:


> And I've seen women told that they should dress to please their man, and that they shouldn't wear clothes that are too sexy when not in his sight. And that they should be concerned about his feelings and act accordingly.
> 
> And yes, I am comparing these things to porn because like it or not, they're on a continuum. I've seen some argue that webcams are totally cool because they are "just porn" and not "in person". I've seen some claim that strippers are totally cool because it's "just a lap dance", not sex. People will justify anything that they want to do, and will use exactly the same excuses: it's not about you, it's meaningless, it isn't "real" sex, it isn't "really" cheating, it's none of your business what I do, so stop controlling me.
> 
> Granted porn is a pixelated person, as opposed to the one gyrating in your lap, but I've also seen men explain porn as their way to get "variety" and fulfill their "urge to spread their seed", and otherwise enjoy their sexual attraction to others.
> 
> If this is understood to be acceptable for both parties in the relationship, well then great. But let's not pretend that it isn't a step towards integrating sexual gratification with others into a relationship.


If it involves another personality which can change to suit you, it's cheating.

So...a lap dancer, a web cam diva, or even a Second Life Avatar are all forms of cheating, IMO.

Watching Briana Banks bumping uglies? It is an image of a real woman but it is what it is.

So unless I am invested so much into these images that actual neglect is occuring, no, it's not cheating.


----------



## JCD

MissMe said:


> I agree, women and men BOTH should be sure their partner's are sexually satisfied. I'm of the same opinion, TEN MINUTES, you can't spare TEN MINUTES?? I just found comparing yard work and oral sex to be strange.


I made the comparison simply because one argument women frequently make to avoid sex or acts they don't like is 'I'm not in the mood' and 'I don't like doing that.'

Blink blink.

Okay. If the oil needs changing in the car, does the car care if I'm 'in the mood'?

Does my wife care if I'm don't like mowing the lawn? 

Nope. Once in a while, you need to do things you find distasteful as a couple.

I find those sexual cop outs dismissive.


----------



## richie33

This thread reminds of the movie Howard Stern Private Parts. They said the people who hated him listened to him 2 times longer than his fans.....just to hear what he said next.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

LouAnn Poovy said:


> So porn is a substitute for cheating? :banghead:


No, not exactly, but it shares some features of cheating.

Porn, when not shared with the partner, is a secret private sexual world. By definition if must take resources from the "regular" sex life. It may also give back as well. There could ideas or other positive effects, but I suspect that the net result is to suck away energy.

At one time porn cost money. Now it doesn't cost much as the Internet is a cost you already have. An affair may cost more money, hotel, gifts, meals out, lost overtime. But affairs and porn both represent lost income opportunity. A person concentrating on either will not do their work as well. Their earnings will be hurt.

As someone earlier pointed out porn can be a surrogate for having many partners. In a hunting gathering setting, the top hunters and warriors probably had more partners. Today that is not allowed except for people in open marriages. Maybe that is good from a social policy point of view, since divorce and broken families are costly.

On the other hand the number of good male partners may diminish if there are a lot sex addicts who take the baggage into marriage. See Annieash's complaint above that she was aware of this problem but her to be husband concealed it from her.

Porn has changed enormously. I don't think Playboy would give any porn addict much stimulation. Bob Guccione "went pink" and became very rich and famous. Every additional development in porn has gone to enlarging the market.

Except for pedophilia, there is nothing taboo in porn. Fifty years ago what average couple imagined a woman being simultaneously penetrated by two men? Today almost all young people know about the practice. Does it hurt people to know too much? We certainly think children should be innocent and protected. Why is 20-year-old guy suddenly not being hurt? And if he is damaged how does he not transfer the damage to his girlfriend or wife?

A discussion about porn doesn't really make sense, unless we consider the context of modern life. The hunting gather instinct has been redirected to mindless shopping. That is much more of a female addiction; many men really dislike the pressure to work just so the family wastes money on crap that is thrown out. Is the resentment than husbands feel about shopping similar to the feeling that wives experience knowing their partner is wasting time and emotional energy on porn?

Porn and consumerism in general encourage us to seek new stimulation. Maybe it means we have a rich culture. Maybe it is superficial.

Also, when it comes to porn. I wonder if while all the sports addict sofa potatoes enjoy the substitute warfare of college basketball and ice hockey on TV, they fail to notice that actually their wives actually glance at those men and fantasize about them. Maybe wives just like the average husband they got and don't wish they could have sex with a star athlete.

Serial cheater Tiger Woods went to a sex addiction clinic and said he had nothing in common with all the guys jerking off. Now he is together with Lindsay Vonn, who doesn't seem to mind his past at all.

And to return to your question of cheating versus porn: cheating is a very vile thing to do in general. The deal, though it is not a legal contract, is that marriage allows a couple to have regular sex without the anxiety of outside competition. Violating this fundamental contract is morally wrong.

But what if a person who has suffered 9 years in a relationship with an abusive alcoholic sudden realizes that a colleague who understands them actually loves them. If those two people start an affair is that so terrible? In the best of all possible worlds everyone should wait until they have filed for divorce. But the EA is already a fact.

If the wife of a porn addict, doesn't have the strength to get a divorce first and stumbles into an exit affair that is morally undesirable. But how can we have no understanding or compassion just because we dislike cheating above all other acts of choice?


----------



## ET1SSJonota

JCD said:


> I made the comparison simply because one argument women frequently make to avoid sex or acts they don't like is 'I'm not in the mood' and 'I don't like doing that.'
> ... If the oil needs changing in the car, does the car care if I'm 'in the mood'?
> Does my wife care if I'm don't like mowing the lawn?
> Nope. Once in a while, you need to do things you find distasteful as a couple.
> I find those sexual cop outs dismissive.


I don't think daily chores are really a comparison, nor do I want my wife to do something distasteful just to sate my desires. The wife does her own distasteful things day in and day out. 

What I find troublesome, and I think you alluded to it earlier, is that near every wife INSISTS she "wants" her man, but rarely if ever actually shows it. In my case, I find my wife incredibly attractive, and while I think eventually daily or more would grow troublesome, I now I WANT her, DESIRE her, almost constantly. I do not think this is just hormones, as I was nowhere near this interested with my XW (seriously - not even close). 

However - that means once, maybe twice per WEEK I *might* have some sex, and she *might* decide she's in the mood to enjoy it enough to get off (yet when asked her ideal, she'll say 3+ times/week). I'm sorry - but that doesn't show me I'm desireable. That shows me she'll do what she feels she "has to" to not "look bad".


----------



## Grayson

LongWalk said:


> Most people consider live webcams more that porn. There is a real person there, a webcam prostitute. You can have an emotional relationship with one. Emotion is what she sells. So I can well imagine a wife or girlfriend drawing the line.
> 
> One thing I've never understood. Prostitution is illegal in many places but making porn films is not. What's the difference? Is someone holds up camera while having sex with a prostitute is it suddenly not prostitution because a documentary program is being filmed?


Even as a fan of porn, I've wondered about this, as well. Not enough to go digging into it, but if I were to hazard a guess, it would be because all participants are receiving compensation for filmed/photographed entertainment. Likewise, there is a movement among independent non-porn film makers to include explicit content in their movies. Examples include Vincent Gallo's _The Brown Bunny_ and John Cameron Mitchell's _Shortbus_. Also, several years ago, there was a series on Showtime or HBO about several couples in marriage counseling that featured more explicit sex scenes than one would expect even from pay cable, including one in which one character masturbated her husband to climax (although, as I recall, a prosthetic may have been used in production). At any rate, my guess would be that it's because of the inclusion of the performance in a larger work.



> Also, I wonder if porn were illegal, would more men cheat?


To quote Dr. Perry Cox: 
I’m fairly sure if they took porn off the internet, there’d only be one website left, and it’d be called "Bring back the porn!”

;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

ET1SSJonota and JCD are on to something. Machiavelli, Warlock, etc would say that men must up their appeal by being in better physical condition and growing into a more alpha role. Not every guy has the willpower to do it. It presupposes that a leaner, more self confident guy can attract her, but there may be too little left in the relationship to do that. Of course many TAM threads touch upon porn as a retreat from a sex stalled marriage.

ET1SSJonota and JCD do you feel your wives would happy for you to find release in porn and not bother them as much?


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Long - I agree with you. 

My statement "porn is a substitute for cheating" was in response to another poster saying basically that porn was used in order to not cheat. I was not advocating using porn and/or cheating.


----------



## LongWalk

> To quote Dr. Perry Cox:
> I’m fairly sure if they took porn off the internet, there’d only be one website left, and it’d be called "Bring back the porn!”
> 
> ;-)


You mean people would forget about baby seals being clubbed to death?


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Ebay would have a whole new line of business!


----------



## Grayson

MissMe said:


> Agreed. And it often has nothing to do with being insecure, which is tossed out often when women say they don't like their men watching porn.


I'd agree that this can be a disingenuous response. I most frequently see it in response to the, "How can I expect to compare to the women in porn?" Now, if we're being fully honest, we have to agree that the law if averages would suggest that some women's objection to porn is due to insecurity. Of course, that doesn't mean that it's a universal truth for all women who object to porn...any more than the equally blanket statement that all men who view porn do so to the detriment of their real-life relationship.

And, since I mentioned the, "How can I possibly compare!" argument, the simple answer is...you don't have to. The average porn viewer understands that what he/she is seeing is optimized to provide the best visuals for the camera/audience...that what's on screen in terms of the people's appearance, enjoyment, readiness, versatility, etc. is a hyper-idealized scenario crafted specifically to maximize audience enjoyment. With the average viewer, you're no more being "compared to" the performers on screen (or page) than you are to an actor in a favorite TV show or movie. And, even given the chance to meet one of those performers, the viewer does not expect that meeting to play out like a typical porn scene. For example, I no more "compare" my wife to porn performers than I do to a favorite "mainstream" actress that I might find attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

ET1SSJonota said:


> I don't think daily chores are really a comparison, nor do I want my wife to do something distasteful just to sate my desires. The wife does her own distasteful things day in and day out.
> 
> What I find troublesome, and I think you alluded to it earlier, is that near every wife INSISTS she "wants" her man, but rarely if ever actually shows it. In my case, I find my wife incredibly attractive, and while I think eventually daily or more would grow troublesome, I now I WANT her, DESIRE her, almost constantly. I do not think this is just hormones, as I was nowhere near this interested with my XW (seriously - not even close).
> 
> However - that means once, maybe twice per WEEK I *might* have some sex, and she *might* decide she's in the mood to enjoy it enough to get off (yet when asked her ideal, she'll say 3+ times/week). I'm sorry - but that doesn't show me I'm desireable. That shows me she'll do what she feels she "has to" to not "look bad".


:iagree: I think this goes for men too! At least in my case. (huge sigh)


----------



## ET1SSJonota

LongWalk said:


> ET1SSJonota and JCD are on to something. Machiavelli, Warlock, etc would say that men must up their appeal by being in better physical condition and growing into a more alpha role. Not every guy has the willpower to do it. It presupposes that a leaner, more self confident guy can attract her, but there may be too little left in the relationship to do that. Of course many TAM threads touch upon porn as a retreat from a sex stalled marriage.
> 
> ET1SSJonota and JCD do you feel your wives would happy for you to find release in porn and not bother them as much?


To your specific question, I *feel* she would/does, but that isn't what she says. It is an uncomfortable non-conversation we have had only in part (yes I mean it exactly that way). We have fought so many times over her masturbation that it is a very sensitive subject for us both. I honestly have no idea anymore what her frequency is, it became too painful to try finding out. Regardless, I feel her desire for ME is basically none, and that sex in generally is only done in order to keep herself from feeling guilty. 
However, she *says* she wants me to come to her when I want my needs satisfied, and she'd be "happy" to help. The times I have taken her up on this have been very poor in terms of my feelings of guilt, noticing little changes in her expression that make me think she is disgusted with it/me; that it is a terrible (distasteful to steal a word) chore. If she wasn't so darn attractive I don't think I'd be much interested in sex at all.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

ET1SSJonota said:


> .... We have fought so many times over her masturbation that it is a very sensitive subject for us both. I honestly have no idea anymore what her frequency is, it became too painful to try finding out. Regardless, I feel her desire for ME is basically none at all...........


I understand this situation all too well.


----------



## Starstarfish

I confess, I've only half-heartedly read reading through all 20 pages of this debate, because I can only imagine what it contains, however, I will make this observation. 

I find there to be a touch of double-standard irony in the fact that once a female OP posted that her husband didn't like her watching Game of Thrones because she might be sexually attracted to Khal Drogo (I probably spelled that wrong) - and people were totally fine in suggesting that maybe she shouldn't upset him and make him feel insecure if it made him uncomfortable. That she should give up what she liked to suit him, or because she had previously liked a boy band she'd lost the privilege to watch the TV show she liked. 

But when the situation is reversed, then there's major offense, off hand scientific evidence offered - this is how monogamous society trained us to not sleep with everyone, we can't help it, it's biology, stop trying to change us, you don't control us sexually. Stop being insecure, stop being my mommy. 

You even had this post:



> So now let's look at what a lot of men view as the pros to using porn for their me time:
> 
> 1. No foreplay needed
> 2. No romancing needed
> 3. Can give in to their kinkiest fetish with no guilt or shaming
> 4. Get to view a woman who is totally there to please the man
> 5. Quick and easy with limited cleanup
> 6. No post sex cuddling or talking. go back to whatever you were doing or find a new girl for round 2. Whatever


And this thought process honestly doesn't work itself into the regular sexual relations?


----------



## ET1SSJonota

LouAnn Poovy said:


> I understand this situation all too well.


I can imagine how similar our situations are. I don't share the distaste for porn (or in her case erotica), or her vibrator for that matter. I do place a lot of it on myself. I can't help but think if I were better looking, or better in bed, or some other intangible that it wouldn't be like this.


----------



## LongWalk

Grayson said:


> I'd agree that this can be a disingenuous response. I most frequently see it in response to the, "How can I expect to compare to the women in porn?" Now, if we're being fully honest, we have to agree that the law if averages would suggest that some women's objection to porn is due to insecurity. Of course, that doesn't mean that it's a universal truth for all women who object to porn...any more than the equally blanket statement that all men who view porn do so to the detriment of their real-life relationship.
> 
> And, since I mentioned the, "How can I possibly compare!" argument, the simple answer is...you don't have to. The average porn viewer understands that what he/she is seeing is optimized to provide the best visuals for the camera/audience...that what's on screen in terms of the people's appearance, enjoyment, readiness, versatility, etc. is a hyper-idealized scenario crafted specifically to maximize audience enjoyment. With the average viewer, you're no more being "compared to" the performers on screen (or page) than you are to an actor in a favorite TV show or movie.You are only referring to commercial porn. The most important porn for many is amateur porn. Read my earlier post. And, even given the chance to meet one of those performers, the viewer does not expect that meeting to play out like a typical porn scene. For example, I no more "compare" my wife to porn performers than I do to a favorite "mainstream" actress that I might find attractive.Why not? They're all human beings
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People may not consciously compare their partner with a movie star or athlete, but they certainly compare both themselves, their spouse and others. People compare income, penis size, body shape, education, intelligence, etc. Some are more secure some less but humans are extremely conscious of what is normal.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Starstarfish said:


> I confess, I've only half-heartedly read reading through all 20 pages of this debate, because I can only imagine what it contains, however, I will make this observation.
> 
> I find there to be a touch of double-standard irony in the fact that once a female OP posted that her husband didn't like her watching Game of Thrones because she might be sexually attracted to Khal Drogo (I probably spelled that wrong) - and people were totally fine in suggesting that maybe she shouldn't upset him and make him feel insecure if it made him uncomfortable. That she should give up what she liked to suit him, or because she had previously liked a boy band she'd lost the privilege to watch the TV show she liked.
> 
> But when the situation is reversed, then there's major offense, off hand scientific evidence offered - this is how monogamous society trained us to not sleep with everyone, we can't help it, it's biology, stop trying to change us, you don't control us sexually. Stop being insecure, stop being my mommy.
> 
> You even had this post:
> 
> 
> 
> And this thought process honestly doesn't work itself into the regular sexual relations?


That does appear to be a double standard. I would not have supported the "not allowed to watch" for GoT or the boy band... because that's ridiculous. 
However, you'll note that there isn't a harmonic chorus singing "we'll beat it to porn no matter what you say". I would expect you are oversimplifying your anecdote. I would imagine that plenty were saying it was ridiculous, and a few were saying she should go along to get along (which has been suggested in here as well - to not do porn, or only do it with the partner, etc etc). 
As to your singling out of the "benefits of porn"... I can say that it entirely depends. In the case of myself, no level of any of that works itself into how I approach/deal with my wife sexually. However, on the flip side, her masturbatory habits are a regular part of our bedroom routine together as well. So clearly there is a chance for what happens in "solo time" to drift into "couples time" - the thing being of course that the other person would have to accept such circumstances. I doubt any of that frequently would be acceptable to most woman, however that being said most all of those things are sated with what I would call a "quickie" (with the exception I suppose of #3).


----------



## JCD

LongWalk said:


> ET1SSJonota and JCD are on to something. Machiavelli, Warlock, etc would say that men must up their appeal by being in better physical condition and growing into a more alpha role. Not every guy has the willpower to do it. It presupposes that a leaner, more self confident guy can attract her, but there may be too little left in the relationship to do that. Of course many TAM threads touch upon porn as a retreat from a sex stalled marriage.
> 
> ET1SSJonota and JCD do you feel your wives would happy for you to find release in porn and not bother them as much?


Nothing I say has any reflection upon my personal sex life. For one thing, to bring that up would be EXTREMELY disrespectful to my wife. Suffice to say we find it mutually agreeable and reasonably satisfying. So do not infer anything from my posts about ME.

Here is one argument that I continue to hear about porn: "Why does he need porn when I am around?"

She likely isn't. Most men would agree that they get shot down by their wives a lot more than they get the green light. Grab her in the bathroom while she's getting ready? Uh uh! Want to make out in the elevator? Someone might see! How about a quickie when you are both home and the kids are at school? I got things I need to do... Does any of this sound familiar?

So, what 'when I'm around' usually means is: at night, in an appropriate location (bedroom) when I am rested, in the mood and doing acts which I find acceptable. Anyone want to know how often that is in normal life?

Some men prefer a means of release which is a bit less hoop strewn. So they can EASILY disconnect with the wife over this. "Hmm...I can wash the car, do the dishes, bring her flowers, cuddle for two hours, watch "Sex in the City" with her, give her a back rub and she might be in the mood...if I don't say or do anything she doesn't like.

Or...I can boot up that Nikki Sexx video I just downloaded...

Decisions, decisions....

Of course, this is a problem because they get USED to immediate gratification...and quickly addicted to it.

The wife suddenly finds fewer demands on her and starts to panic and suddenly, she's opening up the gateways "Come on in! The water's FINE!"...and the man doesn't care.

So then we get new posts in "Sex in Marriage" about how he is a porn addict without mentioning that the best he ever got was some rare missionary position.

Is this true in all marriages? No.

But I also think that half the 'porn addicts' aren't addicts at all. I think *some* are labelled that way by women who are unhappy having any sexual pressure put on them.

I think *some *women take a totally moralistic position and are against it because they are against it.

I think *some* women put the price of sex too high and their husband lost interest in being a track star just to get a little. Instead of admitting they kept their man on short rations, HE suddenly has the problem.

And *some* guys are just addicts or don't want to be troubled by having a REAL relationship.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

JCD said:


> Nothing I say has any reflection upon my personal sex life. For one thing, to bring that up would be EXTREMELY disrespectful to my wife. Suffice to say we find it mutually agreeable and reasonably satisfying. So do not infer anything from my posts about ME.
> 
> Here is one argument that I continue to hear about porn: "Why does he need porn when I am around?"
> 
> She likely isn't. Most men would agree that they get shot down by their wives a lot more than they get the green light. Grab her in the bathroom while she's getting ready? Uh uh! Want to make out in the elevator? Someone might see! How about a quickie when you are both home and the kids are at school? I got things I need to do... Does any of this sound familiar?
> 
> So, what 'when I'm around' usually means is: at night, in an appropriate location (bedroom) when I am rested, in the mood and doing acts which I find acceptable. Anyone want to know how often that is in normal life?
> 
> Some men prefer a means of release which is a bit less hoop strewn. So they can EASILY disconnect with the wife over this. "Hmm...I can wash the car, do the dishes, bring her flowers, cuddle for two hours, watch "Sex in the City" with her, give her a back rub and she might be in the mood...if I don't say or do anything she doesn't like.
> 
> Or...I can boot up that Nikki Sexx video I just downloaded...
> 
> Decisions, decisions....
> 
> Of course, this is a problem because they get USED to immediate gratification...and quickly addicted to it.
> 
> The wife suddenly finds fewer demands on her and starts to panic and suddenly, she's opening up the gateways "Come on in! The water's FINE!"...and the man doesn't care.
> 
> So then we get new posts in "Sex in Marriage" about how he is a porn addict without mentioning that the best he ever got was some rare missionary position.
> 
> Is this true in all marriages? No.
> 
> But I also think that half the 'porn addicts' aren't addicts at all. I think *some* are labelled that way by women who are unhappy having any sexual pressure put on them.
> 
> I think *some *women take a totally moralistic position and are against it because they are against it.
> 
> I think *some* women put the price of sex too high and their husband lost interest in being a track star just to get a little. Instead of admitting they kept their man on short rations, HE suddenly has the problem.
> 
> And *some* guys are just addicts or don't want to be troubled by having a REAL relationship.


In other words a little bit of truth to all the stereotypes. Fair enough.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

ET1SSJonota said:


> I can imagine how similar our situations are. I don't share the distaste for porn (or in her case erotica), or her vibrator for that matter. I do place a lot of it on myself. I can't help but think if I were better looking, or better in bed, or some other intangible that it wouldn't be like this.


That's where we are different. I'm who I am, I look the same as I did when we began dating, I'm good in bed, willing to try anything that doesn't involve other people, animals, or blood. It's not me.

Have you asked her if it's you? I have asked my SO, he claims it's not me at all.


----------



## JCD

Starstarfish said:


> You even had this post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now let's look at what a lot of men view as the pros to using porn for their me time:
> 
> 1. No foreplay needed
> 2. No romancing needed
> 3. Can give in to their kinkiest fetish with no guilt or shaming
> 4. Get to view a woman who is totally there to please the man
> 5. Quick and easy with limited cleanup
> 6. No post sex cuddling or talking. go back to whatever you were doing or find a new girl for round 2. Whatever
> 
> 
> 
> And this thought process honestly doesn't work itself into the regular sexual relations?
Click to expand...

Could you clarify what you mean by this?


----------



## Racer

Porn threads....
My take. Form your own opinion about it... *You aren’t going to change anyone’s mind.*
As it relates to a marriage, it works the same way. The issue is really; Shouldn’t my spouse share the same beliefs as I have? Arguments about what you believe someone else should be instead of dealing with and respecting what they are.

Same old arguments... you come up with a million reasons you have your beliefs. Your spouse has their own arguments, facts and observations. That is the thing about life; You can share the same experiences, but how you interpret them and what you learn from them is uniquely you. They aren’t the same thoughts.... enjoy that part. The yen to your yang.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

LouAnn Poovy said:


> That's where we are different. I'm who I am, I look the same as I did when we began dating, I'm good in bed, willing to try anything that doesn't involve other people, animals, or blood. It's not me.
> 
> Have you asked her if it's you? I have asked my SO, he claims it's not me at all.


I am who I am, although many things have changed about me (to the better) since we've been together (such as being a much cleaner person). 
As to being good in bed, how do you know? Sadly, with your built in parts, 99% chance is it just "is good". I don't have that luxury. And I have competition...
I have asked her, says I'm great, it's all in my head, etc etc. But night after night she's got too much on her mind, too busy, too tired, just flat out not really interested. And when she is... it usually involves some level of her "solo" routine. It's rarely JUST us (if she's going to "get hers").
Again I want to reiterate that we still engage twice per week. I'm assuming most of the men who consider themselves in sexless marriages would like to beat me half to death for looking crosswise at the situation. I love my wife. I love the life we have together, and sex is only a small portion of that. That said - we've had this issue for years to varying degrees, and I feel like a part of me is starting to die over it. I think I will always "care" about it, but the large part of me is getting indifferent to it.


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

Well who knows who's good or bad in bed, that's pretty subjective. My point was asking her if you were the problem. 

I get the exact same excuses you do (tired, busy, etc). Maybe it's really NOT you.


----------



## Grayson

(FYI, when you reply in the body of a quote, it makes it difficult to reply via phone...being part of the quote, those replies don't come through in the new reply's quote without juggling windows to manually cut & paste.)



LongWalk said:


> You are only referring to commercial porn. The most important porn for many is amateur porn. Read my earlier post.


And, if you read some of mine, you'll find that I've agreed that amateur (or, as I tend to write it, "amateur") is far more enjoyable to me. That said, it's still optimized for the viewer's enjoyment as much as is possible. A great deal of so-called "amateur" porn is still at least semi-professionally produced. The truly amateur work out there still strives to be as appealing as possible and not look completely haphazard. After all, the people putting it out there are wanting a positive reaction. That's why I've tried to be careful and refer to the participants as "performers"...even the true amateurs are performing for an audience (even if that audience is originally intended to just be themselves).



> Why not? They're all human beings
> 
> People may not consciously compare their partner with a movie star or athlete, but they certainly compare both themselves, their spouse and others. People compare income, penis size, body shape, education, intelligence, etc. Some are more secure some less but humans are extremely conscious of what is normal.


Why not compare? Because they *are* all unique human beings. I look at, say, actresses Jewel Staite, Alyson Hannigan or Heather Morris and find them attractive. But, even if I might have bits and pieces of information about their off-screen lives, I don't know them. Even though I briefly met Jewel Staite and took a picture with her at a convention a while back, I'll never really know any of them.

In the most basic of terms, I see what you mean about comparison. For instance, I'm cognizant of the fact that Heather Morris can dance in ways my wife can't. But, for the purposes of discussions like this, I take "comparison" to mean more of a checklist of things that we not only see that are different from our partner but qualities that we use to qualify one or the other as being "better" than the other. So, I don't think my wife is lesser than Ms. Morris because the latter such a great dancer. Nor do I stew about the fact that my wife can't dance that way. We're all different. I wouldn't prefer Jewel, Alyson or Heather over my wife. Nor would I prefer the woman in the third scene of Amateurs-a-Go-Go #7438...you know, the one who did that thing? I didn't choose to spend my life with them. In fact, if I find them attractive and zone out over them...even if I...um...indulge myself to that third scene...I'm not even choosing to spend time with them because they're not there.

So, I don't think we've been talking about the same thing when we talk about "comparing."

And conscious of what's normal? To quote another fictional doctor, Dr. Tolian Soran:
"'Normal' is what everyone else is, and you are not."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Starstarfish said:


> I find there to be a touch of double-standard irony in the fact that once a female OP posted that her husband didn't like her watching Game of Thrones because she might be sexually attracted to Khal Drogo (I probably spelled that wrong) - and people were totally fine in suggesting that maybe she shouldn't upset him and make him feel insecure if it made him uncomfortable. That she should give up what she liked to suit him, or because she had previously liked a boy band she'd lost the privilege to watch the TV show she liked.


That's a bit misrepresented.

I laughed at her husband in that thread when she posted that "he" had a problem with an innocent TV show.

BUT..

Then her husband posted to that thread and explained that she had an obsession with these shows and boy bands.
That she had pictures of them everywhere and she overtly compared everything to them while scheduling her life around them and living a delusion.

Her "hobby" was unhealthy just as it would be if one were obsessing about porn in the same manner.

No double standard, just different situations.


----------



## JCD

tacoma said:


> That's a bit misrepresented.
> 
> I laughed at her husband in that thread when she posted that "he" had a problem with an innocent TV show.
> 
> BUT..
> 
> Then her husband posted to that thread and explained that she had an obsession with these shows and boy bands.
> That she had pictures of them everywhere and she overtly compared everything to them while scheduling her life around them and living a delusion.
> 
> Her "hobby" was unhealthy just as it would be if one were obsessing about porn in the same manner.
> 
> No double standard, just different situations.



I remember that thread.

Either a) she had a SERIOUS obsession problem going on or

b) he was incredily insecure.

Which is essentially the crux of the problem we are having with defining porn addiction here.

Is SHE insecure or does HE have a problem?


----------



## tacoma

JCD said:


> I remember that thread.
> 
> Either a) she had a SERIOUS obsession problem going on or
> 
> b) he was incredily insecure.
> 
> Which is essentially the crux of the problem we are having with defining porn addiction here.
> 
> Is SHE insecure or does HE have a problem?


Yes, it's always one or the other or one is brought on by the other.

I've seen porn threads where it's obvious the wife is insecure BUT those insecurities were brought on by her husbands obsessive porn habit and never existed prior to it.

This topic is frustrating due to the many viscous circles it runs those involved in it.

He lies about it so I shame him, I shame him so he lies about it.

She hates it because she's insecure, she's insecure because he obsesses about it.

I tend to speak my piece then GTFO of the thread before it gets too ugly.


----------



## Grayson

All things equal, with a few mini blips, this one's not gotten terribly ugly.

(I didn't jinx that by actually posting it, did I?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

I think what I meant, JCD was what you already laid out in your post above:



> Some men prefer a means of release which is a bit less hoop strewn. So they can EASILY disconnect with the wife over this.





> Of course, this is a problem because they get USED to immediate gratification...and quickly addicted to it.


But, your argument concludes that women are at least half the time, from your guess, in essence to blame for their husband's "porn addition" because they aren't willing to have sex enough or the right kinds of sex. 

But this is when I question which came first the desire for a variety of sex acts, and then pursuing the porn that showed those acts, or - watching the porn that portrayed them, and then wanting them? Which leads to qualifiers like "the best he ever got was missionary sex." Was sex always on a hierarchy, or did the hierarchy only develop once there was more awareness of the possibilities? A very philosophical chicken and the egg question. 

So if my husband develops a porn problem (which in his case would be a major stretch, that's a separate conversation), should I tell myself if only I'd been down for that 50 way bareback gang-bang he watched that one time, he wouldn't have developed a problem?


----------



## JCD

(God help me for revealing this) I was watching this Sex in the City episode once...(How come the pretty one never got naked on that show?)

So...in it, that red headed wench was dating this guy she liked. Of course, she went snooping in his place and found his porn collection.

He seemed to like spanking videos.

Now...since it's written by women, she was totally down with that, perfectly accepting and in an off handed, jocular way, offered to give him a naughty spanking or some such. Trying to grove along with his kink.

Since almost every man in the series was insecure, severely flawed or unavailable, he just dropped her. Right then...right there. Walked away never to be seen again. See...he wanted to keep his personal kinks PERSONAL!

Which I think is part of the basis for a lot of porn usage. The men, for whatever reason, find some act or another, sexually exciting. Something odd.*

Now...since RHW was reasonably perfect, it was all good. But...imagine if a hubby revealed something like that to his wife and she did a visible doubletake followed up by a 'Really?' in a disbelieving tone of voice.

Married couples are supposed to accept each other totally... in theory. Practice...it's a bit harder.

So shame might have a factor.

Men find their porn tittilating. Women tend to find it either appalling or amusing. Neither reaction is reassuring to the man in question.

*Please note that this avoids the question of 'would people have these odd kinks WITHOUT porn?' This is without an answer. However, who taught the Marquis De Sade to be kinky before the internet? Some people are just strange that way.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LouAnn Poovy said:


> And back to the silly thing, when watching a Will Ferrell movie most people chuckle, but don't have an orgasm, one of the most intense physical feelings humans have. Oh god, now I can never watch a Will Ferrell movie the same ever again!!


As somewhat of a seduction artist myself, I have to say that if I have a choice between giving a woman an orgasm - something measured in seconds - versus making her in tears laughing over the course of two hours... I'm going to go with the laughing.


----------



## LongWalk

You say that wives and husbands are not compared


> Because they are all unique human beings.


 If that were true, no one would give a hoot about monogamy or sexual exclusivity. Each partner would be a "unique" experience with "unique" person and thus incomparable.

In reality comparison is common and is a major factor in jealousy. If a wife says to her husband "your brother makes more money than you", that is not an observation of fact, but statement implying discontent.

In infidelity threads, BS often wish to know about the sex, including was it good, was he bigger, etc. In some cases, VAR recordings pick up cheaters laughing at their spouses as lovers. They are inferior and the cheaters even say sometimes that ending the affair is harder because the sex so good.

The reply of posters trying to buck up the BS is sometimes that maybe the sex wasn't really that good. It was just different and exciting.

One recent thread of a failed R pitted the BW just shy of 40 against a 23-year-old woman colleague. The wife is pessimistic about winning her husband back and probably quite correctly consoled herself that the relationship WH and OW had no future but nowhere is this heartrending thread does she dare to think out loud how she could compare sexually. The thought must be there and the answer was obvious and disquieting.

Porn is only safe in the sense that comparison remains unreal, but anyone who has ever looked at any porn knows that pop up ads promise contact nearby with people who want sex. The ads even ask "are you fed up jerking off?" if so click here.

A significant amount of porn actually directly engages cheating and comparison fantasies, i.e., the appeal of the porn is connected to discontent with monogamy. Reality TV shows are also based on the idea that a relationship can be tested for entertainment, e.g., Temptation Island.

Sorry, everyone who says porn doesn't affect real life and real life relationships is deceiving themselves. MacDonald's is not home cooking, once you eat it you cannot enjoy a delicious home-cooked meal. The guy who watches hot-wife amateur porn because he is too lazy to engage his wife or she has shot him down too much, sees the woman in video who really wants sex and "says damn I wish my wife was like that."

Another obvious effect is the demand for anal sex. Wives who don't like it and feel pressured, probably correctly attribute the cause to porn.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I'm pro porn entitlements, the government has spent money on dumber things


----------



## just got it 55

just got it 55 said:


> Getting off the porn has made me want my wife more 40 years total together we are both better at sex in part because my head (the one on my shoulders ) is now fully in the game.She never caught me but I am sure she had her suspicions and maybe hers is to
> 
> She knows that I am fully engaged and really into her and she is returning the passion and energy we both want more and more every day it seems.She sent me a text the other day saying how "we have not had each other for 2 whole days"In the past we would go weeks without it.
> 
> Some men may feel that it does not interfer with thier sex life with thier wives. But in the abstract it's unavoidable to the sub consience. I just can't see it not having a negative impact at least on some level.
> 
> I would always have thoughts of watching porn with her. But I think it would be more for me than for her.So I don't think I would offer to bring it into our lives.If she in the off chance asked for it I am not sure how I would feel.
> 
> She is so sweet and I never saw it *BUT* to my delight she could now act with the best of them in the industry.
> 
> Lucky Lucky Me


On a side note:I have a few PORN DVD's for sale any interest:smthumbup:


----------



## Grayson

Starstarfish said:


> I think what I meant, JCD was what you already laid out in your post above:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But, your argument concludes that women are at least half the time, from your guess, in essence to blame for their husband's "porn addition" because they aren't willing to have sex enough or the right kinds of sex.
> 
> But this is when I question which came first the desire for a variety of sex acts, and then pursuing the porn that showed those acts, or - watching the porn that portrayed them, and then wanting them? Which leads to qualifiers like "the best he ever got was missionary sex." Was sex always on a hierarchy, or did the hierarchy only develop once there was more awareness of the possibilities? A very philosophical chicken and the egg question.
> 
> So if my husband develops a porn problem (which in his case would be a major stretch, that's a separate conversation), should I tell myself if only I'd been down for that 50 way bareback gang-bang he watched that one time, he wouldn't have developed a problem?


The answers to that will vary from person to person, and also vary in degrees.

Take me, for example. I've found that, for the most part, my tastes in the activities I like to see in porn are driven by what I enjoy in the world, but the things I enjoy doing the most may not directly correlate with my preferences in watching. To give specific examples (and perhaps TMI), I never liked watching anal sex in porn...always skipped past it...until we tried it ourselves and liked it; now, I enjoy seeing it depicted. Meanwhile, I absolutely love performing oral on her...but, because the guy's head is usually in the way, it's difficult to shoot effectively to my tastes, so I don't enjoy watching I as much.

There are, of course, some exceptions to things I like to see but haven't experienced, such as two women together...the female form is beautiful, and seeing two, enjoying one another? Words just can't describe how electrifying I think that is to watch. Maybe it's because even I I we're to see that for real, I'd still be a spectator, which makes a bit of sense, as, for me, it seems to all come back to having a frame of reference.

Some people, on the other hand, see something and think, "Hey! That looks fun!" and suggest it to their partner. It could be something tame...it could be something outrageous. All depends on the person. And, if suggested, their partner is not beholden to go beyond their personal boundaries, but may want to also examine whether or not that suggestion, while possibly outside their normal comfort zone, might still be within their boundaries and something they're willing to try at least once. And, if it's not something they're willing to try, no harm, no foul. Meanwhile, as long as the viewing of porn isn't truly impacting the relationship, I don't see a problem with mentally scratching the itch of something that won't ever happen for real by watching a depiction of it.

As my wife frequently says, she doesn't care what gets me going, as long as she's my primary option for letting it out. She may decline, but it's not a big secret from her if I choose to take care of myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

JCD wrote:



> *Please note that this avoids the question of 'would people have these odd kinks WITHOUT porn?' This is without an answer. However, who taught the Marquis De Sade to be kinky before the internet? Some people are just strange that way.


The mother of "perversion" is the human mind not porn. That said, porn is the distillation of all aspects of human sexuality. Someday computers will provide synthetic pvssy smell, women will not like that.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> not be unilaterally decided by someone who feels it's his/her right to get off to whatever and whenever (s)he feels like it.


As I said.... you want to control the other person. Any person has a right to get off all by their lonesome whatever and whenever they feel like it.

I can also sh*t when I feel like it, get angry when I feel like it and cry when I feel like it. No, you don't need anyone else's permission.



always_alone said:


> And that's why there are so many threads here from men who are upset about the way their wife dresses because she is attracting other men, or that she is demanding sexual favours that he is uncomfortable with, or nervous because she finds her co-workers or bosses attractive and so on.
> 
> Men often feel that their possessiveness is justified, whereas the women's is not. Why is that?


Why is it I can predict that any argument you, trenton, ladyofthelake, and catherine enter will immediately go to "women are victims"? Your question presumes your statement is true. I'm not possessive and don't know any guys who are. I reject your premise. In my experience, women on average are a hell of a lot more possessive than men - who are more often utterly oblivious.

I like my women dressing sexy. Hells yeah!! is what I say to her demanding sexual favors of me. Are you kidding me?? I think its a rare guy who goes "Oh dear... what do I do with my hyper-sexual wife?"

Of course, since there ARE threads on this forum where men are uneasy about their wives dressing hot, being sexually liberal, or talking about their attractive boss... in the interests of fairness, you're totally welcome to post threads about how worried you are about your men dressing hot, being sexually liberal or talking about their attractive boss.

But you know what I don't see? Men complaining about their wives porn and masturbation habits. Even things like 50 shades, its not men coming here to complain about it... its women disappointed that their men aren't Gray! And in these threads, most of the men are pretty quick to point out that they don't expect their wives to be porn stars.

Despite the fact that you see woman victims and double standards everywhere... they are really only in your head. Enjoy porn to your heart's content. Most men would applaud.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> But you know what I don't see? Men complaining about their wives porn and masturbation habits...


Ahem... for the most part sure....

Although as I've mentioned before I don't blame the porn or the toy...


----------



## AnnieAsh

I don't get why everyone keeps bringing up that godawful FSOG and Twilight and the like. First of all, my husband has absolutely forbidden me to read it because duh! It is TERRIBLE and he's afraid I will lose braincells. 

But I don't own a vibrator. I find they desensitize my bits. The only erotica I read is what I have written with my own one hand (wink wink nudge nudge.) I invest all of my considerable sexual energy into my husband. I cannot relate to men who complain their wives are only into sex once or twice a week. That is NOT me. Sexual activity every day would make me happy. 

I don't turn him down. I'm fun in the sack. I'm attractive. Yet I still have no right to demand more sexual attention? I call bullcrap on that.


----------



## Grayson

I guess I did jinx it....



LongWalk said:


> You say that wives and husbands are not compared If that were true, no one would give a hoot about monogamy or sexual exclusivity. Each partner would be a "unique" experience with "unique" person and thus incomparable.
> 
> In reality comparison is common and is a major factor in jealousy. If a wife says to her husband "your brother makes more money than you", that is not an observation of fact, but statement implying discontent.
> 
> In infidelity threads, BS often wish to know about the sex, including was it good, was he bigger, etc. In some cases, VAR recordings pick up cheaters laughing at their spouses as lovers. They are inferior and the cheaters even say sometimes that ending the affair is harder because the sex so good.
> 
> The reply of posters trying to buck up the BS is sometimes that maybe the sex wasn't really that good. It was just different and exciting.
> 
> One recent thread of a failed R pitted the BW just shy of 40 against a 23-year-old woman colleague. The wife is pessimistic about winning her husband back and probably quite correctly consoled herself that the relationship WH and OW had no future but nowhere is this heartrending thread does she dare to think out loud how she could compare sexually. The thought must be there and the answer was obvious and disquieting.


Wow. Way to completely ignore the final portion of the post that you culled a single phrase from. You know...the one where I realized and discussed how we weren't using the term "compare" the same way in the context of the conversation?



> Porn is only safe in the sense that comparison remains unreal, but anyone who has ever looked at any porn knows that pop up ads promise contact nearby with people who want sex. The ads even ask "are you fed up jerking off?" if so click here.


I also get online ads from car dealerships asking if I'm tired of my current car. Doesn't mean I'm going to run out and trade mine in. So, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China.



> A significant amount of porn actually directly engages cheating and comparison fantasies, i.e., the appeal of the porn is connected to discontent with monogamy. Reality TV shows are also based on the idea that a relationship can be tested for entertainment, e.g., Temptation Island.


A great amount of all fiction directly engages cheating and comparison fantasies. I disagree, though, that that's because its appeal is connected to discontent with monogamy. It's because narrative drama is born of conflict, and cheating and "comparison fantasies" inherently introduce conflict into narrative structure.



> Sorry, everyone who says porn doesn't affect real life and real life relationships is deceiving themselves. MacDonald's is not home cooking, once you eat it you cannot enjoy a delicious home-cooked meal.


Oh really?

Sometimes I enjoy junk fast food, yes. (McDonald's fries? I think they lace those things with crack.) But, I'm so glad you've now informed me that I didn't really enjoy the home cooked meal I had last night. Or that I didn't enjoy the burgers I grilled outside Saturday night that I did it again on Sunday. Or that there's not much that can consistently make my taste buds happy like the chicken and dumplings I learned to make from my grandmother. If not for you, I'd have gone through life thinking that, because I enjoy fast food from time to time - and sometimes probably more than I should for convenience's sake - that I don't enjoy a home cooked meal. Thank you for opening my eyes.



> The guy who watches hot-wife amateur porn because he is too lazy to engage his wife or she has shot him down too much, sees the woman in video who really wants sex and "says damn I wish my wife was like that."


I feel it necessary to, once again, point out that I've never disputed such people exist. What I *have* disputed is the notion that they are the norm or a majority of porn viewers. You yourself point out the crux of the problem in your statement: "*he is too lazy*." The problem is him, not porn.



> Another obvious effect is the demand for anal sex. Wives who don't like it and feel pressured, probably correctly attribute the cause to porn.


I'm sure that's what sparked some to request it. (BTW, I remain consistent in saying that any outright demands for an act that is beyond one partner's boundaries is out of line, regardless of what might have sparked the idea.) For others, like me, it's not. Honestly, I couldn't tell you what prompted me to suggest it. It certainly wasn't watching it in porn because, as I mentioned in a previous reply, it didn't appeal to me in porn and was skipped over until after we tried it and liked it. I sense a couple of inevitable questions, so I'll answer pre-emptively. Yes, I was and remain willing to receive, as well; that was an offer made willingly when the subject first came up, and we've both enjoyed both giving and receiving. Yes, I'm sure she's doing it because she enjoys it, as she's self-stimulated (or asked for my assistance) via vibrator far more often than I've personally penetrated her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Grayson

just got it 55 said:


> On a side note:I have a few PORN DVD's for sale any interest:smthumbup:


Recently had to move my "special" DVD's to a smaller storage space*, or I'd see what you've got. ;-)

*(No...not to hide them from my wife. Heck...she's picked some of them out. No...to free up floor space in my side if the closet for her shoes spilling over from her side. Did someone mention addiction? I kid!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Question for the ladies. Where's the line between acceptable and not for you specifically. I'm just trying to get an idea of common ground because I think there is some for most of us.

On one end of the spectrum is where hard core porn takes the place of intimacy and it's obviously wrong. On the other end are things like R rated movies and even network TV like dance shows. It's unreasonable for those to be an issue to me but they probably are with some people.

I don't know. It just doesn't seem so difficult for both sides to give a little bit. That's what marriage is about.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> That wasn't aimed at you specifically but just in general, to some if someone watches porn they are automatically a addict, to some if someone doesn't doesn't want porn in their relationship they are automatically insecure.
> It just seems easier for many to insult someone who has a different need or standard in a relationship than to understand it.
> Some people want to marry someone with the same religion or moral beliefs (vegetarian/humanitarian ect), porn is no different.


Let me expand on my insecurity labeling... because I don't mean it as an insult. I mean it literally. It is nothing like religion or diet. Let me throw you a scenario. You go to bed. Your Husband stays up watching some regular tv show you're not interested in. Its okay with you though, you're tired and sleepy. Some time later, he decides "You know what, I'd like to have an orgasm." He's not feeling terribly horny... just wants a quick orgasm. His options are, wake the wife, or knock one out himself. Few men are going to wake a sleeping wife for sex, but besides that, he might not want all the commotion of intercourse. So he decides to masturbate.

Do the women here think he has no right to masturbate? He might be watching something on tv, or he might just use his imagination. Whatever... do you think he has the right to masturbate?

Assuming you think he does... (if he doesn't, then porn isn't the issue). He's not terribly horny, but he wants that orgasm. So he wants to *become* horny. He hops on the computer to watch some porn to get turned on and masturbate to. What exactly is your problem? You're asleep. You're not missing anything. You weren't even thinking about sex before you went to sleep. He's not depriving you of something you'd otherwise get... in this example, he's not replacing sex with masturbation. He doesn't want sex. You didn't want sex. If he goes to bed instead of masturbating, there is still not going to be sex.

Have we established that no one has lost anything by his masturbation?

If so, all that leaves is his imagery. Is porn worse than imagining naked women? Is porn worse than jerking off to Women's Beach Volleyball? (I like women's beach volleyball... if you can't tell. Its a great sport. )

What possible reason, if no one has lost anything, can you have for wanting him to NOT view porn if he's welcome to masturbate to the women he imagines, or to Beach Volleyball? They show more? So softcore porn is ok? Sexual scenes in movies are ok?

No, I think the ultimate reason here, if you think its okay for him to masturbate at all, is that you don't want him masturbating to anything other than YOU. ie - he's not allowed to be turned on by anything but you. Of course, every man in fact IS turned on by many more things than just you. Those against porn in spite of losing nothing themselves and not being neglected in any way, ARE simply insecure and controlling. That's not intended as an insult - its accurately descriptive. They desire to control their man's very thoughts ultimately and are jealous of virtual persons - actors or imagined. He's only allowed to think of HER as sexy.

THIS IS INSECURITY. I can think of no other reason a woman would be against porn if she's losing nothing.

But you know what? ALL of your men do in fact think there are other sexy women and are turned on by seeing them, remembering and re-imagining them (that hot blonde in the red dress that blew up momentarily showing a lot of leg and a little of her a$$... yeah... that gets saved for later and our brains are happy to fill in the rest of the details), or viewing them in naked pictures or having sex on video. Is imagining the girl in the red dress better than porn? Because that's what happens. You can outlaw his porn, you can make him commit to swearing off masturbation... but you know what? He's still going to have thoughts about the red dress.

This is ALL about control and insecurity, and I'm sorry, but you'll never regulate our thoughts. So rather than being so uptight and controlling... find your inner security and accept that you're not the only thing in the world that's going to turn on your husband... no matter what you do.


----------



## JCD

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't get why everyone keeps bringing up that godawful FSOG and Twilight and the like. First of all, my husband has absolutely forbidden me to read it because duh! It is TERRIBLE and he's afraid I will lose braincells.
> 
> But I don't own a vibrator. I find they desensitize my bits. The only erotica I read is what I have written with my own one hand (wink wink nudge nudge.) I invest all of my considerable sexual energy into my husband. I cannot relate to men who complain their wives are only into sex once or twice a week. That is NOT me. Sexual activity every day would make me happy.
> 
> I don't turn him down. I'm fun in the sack. I'm attractive. Yet I still have no right to demand more sexual attention? I call bullcrap on that.



Annie, this isn't specifically about you. This is more of a generic discussion.

In fact your situation is useful to prove that there is a bridge too far with porn. But there are 50 shades of porn too


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## TiggyBlue

Dvls just because that's the way you personally reason why some women don't like porn in a relationship doesn't automatically make it so.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Thundarr said:


> Question for the ladies. Where's the line between acceptable and not for you specifically. I'm just trying to get an idea of common ground because I think there is some for most of us.
> 
> On one end of the spectrum is where hard core porn takes the place of intimacy and it's obviously wrong. On the other end are things like R rated movies and even network TV like dance shows. It's unreasonable for those to be an issue to me but they probably are with some people.
> 
> I don't know. It just doesn't seem so difficult for both sides to give a little bit. That's what marriage is about.



For me personally (same as for my husband) porn is fine if away for a few day's and need a quick release. My husband very rarely watches porn (finds it difficult to maintain a erection watching it) so I probably watch it more than he does when one of us has been away.


----------



## AnnieAsh

JCD, there's like 10 posts with a caveat about how this doesn't relate to Annie's Situation. I'm like the freak of the thread! Stop leaving me out!

I'm here to remind male posters that there is another side to this. The wives are not always shrill and controlling. Sometimes we're just begging for the same about of sexual attention that we invest in our husbands. Which is a whole heck of a lot in my case. And I don't think I'm an outlier or anomaly.


----------



## richie33

Annie I think men and women throughout this board agree on one thing.......your husband has a problem and its not right what he is doing to you. Its the only thing I have read on this board that everyone is in agreement on. Porn lovers and haters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't turn him down. I'm fun in the sack. I'm attractive. Yet I still have no right to demand more sexual attention? I call bullcrap on that.


Demand all the attention you want! That's the proper response.

When you want it go get it. When he wants you he'll come get you. If he doesn't, the problem isn't porn... its HIM.

You know what? Sometimes we just want to be lazy, not get drenched in sweat or worked out, and have a nice calm oragasm watching other people have sex. Most men watching porn aren't going to be having more sex with their wives as a result of not watching porn. Its a casual and occassional thing when you don't really feel like having sex and you want to be turned on.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> JCD, there's like 10 posts with a caveat about how this doesn't relate to Annie's Situation. I'm like the freak of the thread! Stop leaving me out!
> 
> I'm here to remind male posters that there is another side to this. The wives are not always shrill and controlling. Sometimes we're just begging for the same about of sexual attention that we invest in our husbands. Which is a whole heck of a lot in my case. And I don't think I'm an outlier or anomaly.


I completely agree with this post: The same amount of attention. Of course, this forum is FULL of posts from men not getting the same amount of sexual attention they give their wives.

Heck, I know guys whose wives don't like their porn habit even though the balance of sexual attention in their relationship is very lopsided in favor of the wife!

I'm not convinced any level of sexual attention would resolve a woman's dislike of porn. Its jealousy... plain and simple. Insecurity.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't get why everyone keeps bringing up that godawful FSOG and Twilight and the like. First of all, my husband has absolutely forbidden me to read it because duh! It is TERRIBLE and he's afraid I will lose braincells.


Because they are or were part of a cultural zeitgeist that captured a snapshot of women freely and openly displaying behavior that they normally liken to men's behavior in response to porn.

With, for example, Twilight, I've personally witnessed a 50-something year old woman behave like a crazed teenage girl over one of the actors, openly enthusing over how frequently he was shirtless in the movies. We've seen footage of the lines outside theaters containing screaming teenage girls and middle-aged women alike. We've seen and read reports of their alleged immersion into the love story. No argument from me that it's poorly written. But then, I readily say the same thing about actual porn, too.

With Fifty Shades, we saw it hit like wildfire, getting fans in women who had previously shied away from the very thought of some of the activities in the books. Again...I'm not disputing the (lack of) quality. But then, what do you expect from rewritten Twilight fanfic.

While we're at it, let's not forget Magic Mike, a movie that made quite a tidy profit from an ad campaign that amounted to, "Hey, ladies! Come look at buff, shirtless guys! It's OK, we promise!"

Generally speaking, women lapped them up. And guys? We understood! We got that they liked seeing Channing Tatum shirtless. We got that their enjoying that didn't mean they cared for us any less. Many of us had the reaction of, "At last!  Women have something that they can step back and say, 'Oh, I get it now.'"

And you know what? It *is* OK. Ogle Alexander Skaarsgard on True Blood. Read Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty books. Subscribe to Playgirl. As long as it doesn't interfere with the relationship, it's all good!



> But I don't own a vibrator. I find they desensitize my bits. The only erotica I read is what I have written with my own one hand (wink wink nudge nudge.) I invest all of my considerable sexual energy into my husband. I cannot relate to men who complain their wives are only into sex once or twice a week. That is NOT me. Sexual activity every day would make me happy.


And that's all equally valid. No two ways about it.



> I don't turn him down. I'm fun in the sack. I'm attractive. Yet I still have no right to demand more sexual attention? I call bullcrap on that.


I'd say this too will vary from person to person, relationship to relationship. As long as the sexual needs of one's partner are being fulfilled, there's nothing wrong with a little "special alone time."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

richie33 said:


> Annie I think men and women throughout this board agree on one thing.......your husband has a problem and its not right what he is doing to you. Its the only thing I have read on this board that everyone is in agreement on. Porn lovers and haters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sometimes I think...if my husband has gone as far as he has (the risky public behavior, missing sleep, ignoring his wife) how many other men do the SAME thing? And how many wives are afraid to speak up? Because no one wants to be labeled as i have been labeled here. 

This will probably get blown off as the nonsensical rantings of a Vagina Possessor but...the next time you (the general you) see a situation like mine, there may just be a hurting and sad wife behind it. 

I'm gonna go put my soapbox away.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> Dvls just because that's the way you personally reason why some women don't like porn in a relationship doesn't automatically make it so.


Bring it. Give me the reasons that don't hinge on insecurity/jealousy, where he uses porn in a healthy fashion and not neglecting her in any way.

I'd love to hear them.

I'll front you religion... but we all know that's not the elephant in the room now don't we?


----------



## AnnieAsh

I realize that sometimes a man wants a quick orgasm. That is why he gets more bjs than I ever thought humanly possible. And dirty videos and pics of me on a daily basis. Because sometimes a person needs alone time. All to no avail. I wish I was exaggerating the lengths I have gone.


----------



## Thundarr

AnnieAsh said:


> JCD, there's like 10 posts with a caveat about how this doesn't relate to Annie's Situation. I'm like the freak of the thread! Stop leaving me out!
> 
> I'm here to remind male posters that there is another side to this. The wives are not always shrill and controlling. Sometimes we're just begging for the same about of sexual attention that we invest in our husbands. Which is a whole heck of a lot in my case. And I don't think I'm an outlier or anomaly.


I can think of at least two other posters on this thread and maybe more who have similar history. My thoughts are that these guys who watch porn and neglect their wives are getting let off the hook and porn is assuming too much blame. Much like guns, alcohol, and casinos taking the blame for people who don't control their own actions.


----------



## JCD

AnnieAsh said:


> JCD, there's like 10 posts with a caveat about how this doesn't relate to Annie's Situation. I'm like the freak of the thread! Stop leaving me out!
> 
> I'm here to remind male posters that there is another side to this. The wives are not always shrill and controlling. Sometimes we're just begging for the same about of sexual attention that we invest in our husbands. Which is a whole heck of a lot in my case. And I don't think I'm an outlier or anomaly.


Don't tease the badger. I need to avoid another ban.


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm not convinced any level of sexual attention would resolve a woman's dislike of porn. Its jealousy... plain and simple. Insecurity.


I'm sitting here TELLING you that it is not insecurity! That more sexual attention WOULD be my solution but unfortunately, he's not a never-ending well of sexuality. There is a finite amount of orgasms and erections he can have in 24 hours. Why would I be insecure about fake people having fake sex? I could walk out and find a guy willing to take me on in an hour.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> I realize that sometimes a man wants a quick orgasm. That is why he gets more bjs than I ever thought humanly possible. And dirty videos and pics of me on a daily basis. Because sometimes a person needs alone time. All to no avail. I wish I was exaggerating the lengths I have gone.


I really really don't want you to think my comments are aimed at you per se. I am in this general discussion of healthy porn use specifically.

If your husband did not neglect you, and didn't do some of these other crazy things, but did occassional knock a quick one out to porn at no loss to you (the amount he seeks you is equal to the amount you seek him), would you still have a problem with it?


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Sometimes I think...if my husband has gone as far as he has (the risky public behavior, missing sleep, ignoring his wife) how many other men do the SAME thing? And how many wives are afraid to speak up? Because no one wants to be labeled as i have been labeled here.
> 
> This will probably get blown off as the nonsensical rantings of a Vagina Possessor but...the next time you (the general you) situation like mine, there may just be a hurting and sad wife behind it.
> 
> I'm gonna go put my soapbox away.


Annie, none of us are giving your husband a pass. Nor are we saying he's the only person to behave like he does. We're just saying that they're not the norm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## richie33

AnnieAsh said:


> Sometimes I think...if my husband has gone as far as he has (the risky public behavior, missing sleep, ignoring his wife) how many other men do the SAME thing? And how many wives are afraid to speak up? Because no one wants to be labeled as i have been labeled here.
> 
> This will probably get blown off as the nonsensical rantings of a Vagina Possessor but...the next time you (the general you) situation like mine, there may just be a hurting and sad wife behind it.
> 
> I'm gonna go put my soapbox away.


Your case seems very extreme. You describe a man who can spend 7 hours looking at porn, who comes home late cause he sits in his car watching it and forgets the time. You also sound like your up for almost anything with this man and he is chosing porn. I can't see anyone thinking that's ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> Sometimes I think...if my husband has gone as far as he has (the risky public behavior, missing sleep, ignoring his wife) how many other men do the SAME thing? And how many wives are afraid to speak up? Because no one wants to be labeled as i have been labeled here.
> This will probably get blown off as the nonsensical rantings of a Vagina Possessor but...the next time you (the general you) situation like mine, there may just be a hurting and sad wife behind it.
> I'm gonna go put my soapbox away.


In the grand scheme Annie, there are probably lots of women in your shoes, but they are NOT the majority. 
And, as clearly illustrated above, we aren't labeling you, and place your situation in a different category. You seem to have a very valid stance for your situation. We still maintain that it is your SO that is the problem, and not the porn. If he were an alcoholic, would it be the beer's fault?


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I really really don't want you to think my comments are aimed at you per se. I am in this general discussion of healthy porn use specifically.
> 
> If your husband did not neglect you, and didn't do some of these other crazy things, but did occassional knock a quick one out to porn at no loss to you (the amount he seeks you is equal to the amount you seek him), would you still have a problem with it?


I know they aren't aimed at me, but I have an insatiable need to insert myself everywhere!  

See, I wouldn't have a problem with occasional usage. I don't care about porn. All I knew when I got married was that I was not compatible with heavy users, as in daily usage. Getting off once in while I am incapacitated or not available doesn't bother me. Constant and vigorous usage...well that's another story.


----------



## Created2Write

I've only read the OP, and plan for this to be my only response to this thread. I've responded to porn threads before, and I know my view is probably not very popular. But, I've known many people who use porn, all of them had been addicted to it, and I'd like to discuss my conclusions. 

Firstly, porn is very different than alcohol, imo. Not everyone is going to be addicted to alcohol. Some people don't even like the taste of it. But taken in moderation, alcohol more than likely won't impact a marriage. Porn, however, _will_, even if the person using it isn't abusing it, so long as their spouse is uncomfortable with it. 

Porn is not essential to marriage, or to any individual. And, frankly, I find the fact that so many people are determined to defend and justify their use of porn a sign of just how bad it is to use. And for the record I view masturbation, romance novels and soap operas the same way. I don't want anything arousing me other than my husband. During the time I read romance novels, I found that it became more difficult for me to be aroused. I started needing to fantasize, play over sexual sentences in my mind to orgasm, imagine that my husband was rouge-ish hunk I intended to resits; and I wasn't reading very many. I think I read three in the course of a few months. 

I stopped, and things went back to normal. I even avoid intense sexual scenes in movies and television shows because I don't want to be aroused by anything else, or anyone else. And I thank God that my husband feels the same. The men I know who've used porn started with a little bit, and the curiosity pushed them deeper into it until they couldn't stop. I know that not everyone becomes addicted, but just because someone isn't addicted doesn't mean that they _should_ use it. 

If both the husband and wife are fine with porn, then at least there is a mutual agreement to the risks. But if one is uncomfortable with it and the other insists on using it, I see that as utter selfishness...disregarding our spouses concerns for the sake of our personal independence is unfeeling. If porn is _so_ important, that it comes before your spouses feelings, there is already a major issue in the person using it, imo. 

No one is entitled to something that makes their spouse feel uncomfortable, so long as they're not being unreasonable. Spending time with friends, for instance, isn't something that should make a husband or wife uncomfortable. But something that can and often does effect the sexual aspect of marriages in a negative way, should matter to the one using that thing.

Anyway, my two cents.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Bring it. Give me the reasons that don't hinge on insecurity/jealousy, where he uses porn in a healthy fashion and not neglecting her in any way.
> 
> I'd love to hear them.


Read the rest of this thread, moral stance on the porn industry, losing attraction to a partner who uses porn it has been said all over TAM many times.
I had one friend who was genuinely insecure about porn, showing her links to hot guys in porn so she concentrated on what she likes rather than what her partner liked pretty much dissolved her insecurity.
Had a discussion with a friend who took a moral stance on porn, she said 'if my boyfriend started to masturbate looking at a woman on the street I would be offended, because it's on a computer or tv some how i'm all of a sudden suppose to be fine with it or because many others do it i'm all of a sudden suppose to me fine with it', porn isn't the problem to her, her partners actions would be the problem.
May or may not agree with it but her point doesn't automatically become invalid because it's different to many others .


----------



## Lordhavok

AnnieAsh said:


> He's watching it and masturbating. He does it so vigorously that I have found scabs on his penis and red, raw areas. He is not taking care of me, I'm getting about 50% of the sex and affection I crave. He cannot masturbate for 3 hours AND have sex with his wife. He just doesn't have the time or the energy.
> 
> And to say that we get "pissy" is rather hurtful. I don't get pissy. I feel hurt, neglected, unloved, empty and resentful. I could walk outside, find a good looking dude and rock his world, but I CANNOT. Because I am married to a man who compulsively masturbates.
> 
> He used to be the sexiest thing on 2 legs (Will Ferrell notwithstanding) and now I feel sorry for him.


Pissy was just a bad choice for a word, was not meant to demean your feelings at all. For that I do apologize. You have every right to be upset and hurt. I've said it before and I'll say it again, images on a screen is no comparison to the real thing, dont make any sense to me.


----------



## Thundarr

AnnieAsh said:


> Sometimes I think...if my husband has gone as far as he has (the risky public behavior, missing sleep, ignoring his wife) how many other men do the SAME thing? And how many wives are afraid to speak up? Because no one wants to be labeled as i have been labeled here.
> 
> This will probably get blown off as the nonsensical rantings of a *Vagina Possessor* but...the next time you (the general you) situation like mine, there may just be a hurting and sad wife behind it.
> 
> I'm gonna go put my soapbox away.


:cat: Vagina Possessor. With great power cums great responsibility.


----------



## AnnieAsh

I don't, by ANY stretch of the imagination, think every situation is as extreme as mine. 8 out of the 10 guys I dated were casual users and it never interfered. But I do believe it happens more than people think. I just ask for a little more kindness for the people who might not want it in their relationships.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't, by ANY stretch of the imagination, think every situation is as extreme as mine. 8 out of the 10 guys I dated were casual users and it never interfered. But I do believe it happens more than people think. I just ask for a little more kindness for the people who might not want it in their relationships.


I think there's been a showing of support for those in your position Annie. You should put your foot down: but know that it is on your HUSBAND, and not PORN. Which doesn't mean you can't banish his porn, but if you do that and only that, he will either hide it, or find another venue.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Thundarr said:


> :cat: Vagina Possessor. With great power cums great responsibility.


I just laughed so loudly my husband was startled awake! 

Lord Havok (can I call you Milord?) thanks very much. I know you didn't mean anything by it.


----------



## Created2Write

I forgot to add _why_ I'm uncomfortable with it: simply put, I don't think we should allow ourselves to be aroused by people other than our spouse. I especially don't think we should _pursue_ being aroused by other people than our spouse. I know that spontaneous arousal can't always be controlled, but intentionally pursuing something with the intention of being aroused, without our spouse involved, is unhealthy for marriages in the long run, imo. I can't say that I have proof, other than how I felt the two times my husband looked up inappropriate things on the internet. 

It wasn't insecurity. I know that I'm better than some fake, airbrushed woman on the screen. But damn right it was jealousy. Arousing my husband is _*my*_ right as his wife. No other women has the right to that, whether she be in some movie, or a woman he works with, or a friend he's had for years. I am the only woman with the right to arouse my husband. Likewise he is the only man with the right to arouse me. I am here, ready and willing to give him the time of his life, committed to his happiness, committed to his sexual satisfaction. He doesn't need porn to do that. And if having a variety of women is so important that he can't live without it, then he's obviously not ready to be married. 

Anyway, now I'm done.


----------



## LongWalk

Grayson said:


> I guess I did jinx it....
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Way to completely ignore the final portion of the post that you culled a single phrase from. You know...the one where I realized and discussed how we weren't using the term "compare" the same way in the context of the conversation?
> 
> 
> 
> I also get online ads from car dealerships asking if I'm tired of my current car. Doesn't mean I'm going to run out and trade mine in. So, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China.
> 
> 
> 
> A great amount of all fiction directly engages cheating and comparison fantasies. I disagree, though, that that's because its appeal is connected to discontent with monogamy. It's because narrative drama is born of conflict, and cheating and "comparison fantasies" inherently introduce conflict into narrative structure.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh really?
> 
> Sometimes I enjoy junk fast food, yes. (McDonald's fries? I think they lace those things with crack.) But, I'm so glad you've now informed me that I didn't really enjoy the home cooked meal I had last night. Or that I didn't enjoy the burgers I grilled outside Saturday night that I did it again on Sunday. Or that there's not much that can consistently make my taste buds happy like the chicken and dumplings I learned to make from my grandmother. If not for you, I'd have gone through life thinking that, because I enjoy fast food from time to time - and sometimes probably more than I should for convenience's sake - that I don't enjoy a home cooked meal. Thank you for opening my eyes.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel it necessary to, once again, point out that I've never disputed such people exist. What I *have* disputed is the notion that they are the norm or a majority of porn viewers. You yourself point out the crux of the problem in your statement: "*he is too lazy*." The problem is him, not porn.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure that's what sparked some to request it. (BTW, I remain consistent in saying that any outright demands for an act that is beyond one partner's boundaries is out of line, regardless of what might have sparked the idea.) For others, like me, it's not. Honestly, I couldn't tell you what prompted me to suggest it. It certainly wasn't watching it in porn because, as I mentioned in a previous reply, it didn't appeal to me in porn and was skipped over until after we tried it and liked it. I sense a couple of inevitable questions, so I'll answer pre-emptively. Yes, I was and remain willing to receive, as well; that was an offer made willingly when the subject first came up, and we've both enjoyed both giving and receiving. Yes, I'm sure she's doing it because she enjoys it, as she's self-stimulated (or asked for my assistance) via vibrator far more often than I've personally penetrated her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I appreciate what you have to say. No need to be sarcastic.


----------



## LongWalk

Created2Write said:


> I forgot to add _why_ I'm uncomfortable with it: simply put, I don't think we should allow ourselves to be aroused by people other than our spouse. I especially don't think we should _pursue_ being aroused by other people than our spouse. I know that spontaneous arousal can't always be controlled, but intentionally pursuing something with the intention of being aroused, without our spouse involved, is unhealthy for marriages in the long run, imo. I can't say that I have proof, other than how I felt the two times my husband looked up inappropriate things on the internet.
> 
> It wasn't insecurity. I know that I'm better than some fake, airbrushed woman on the screen. But damn right it was jealousy. Arousing my husband is _*my*_ right as his wife. No other women has the right to that, whether she be in some movie, or a woman he works with, or a friend he's had for years. I am the only woman with the right to arouse my husband. Likewise he is the only man with the right to arouse me. I am here, ready and willing to give him the time of his life, committed to his happiness, committed to his sexual satisfaction. He doesn't need porn to do that. And if having a variety of women is so important that he can't live without it, then he's obviously not ready to be married.
> 
> Anyway, now I'm done.


Not unreasonable. Even sounds like a good deal.


----------



## MissMe

Created2Write said:


> I forgot to add _why_ I'm uncomfortable with it: simply put, I don't think we should allow ourselves to be aroused by people other than our spouse. I especially don't think we should _pursue_ being aroused by other people than our spouse. I know that spontaneous arousal can't always be controlled, but intentionally pursuing something with the intention of being aroused, without our spouse involved, is unhealthy for marriages in the long run, imo. I can't say that I have proof, other than how I felt the two times my husband looked up inappropriate things on the internet.
> 
> It wasn't insecurity. I know that I'm better than some fake, airbrushed woman on the screen. But damn right it was jealousy. Arousing my husband is _*my*_ right as his wife. No other women has the right to that, whether she be in some movie, or a woman he works with, or a friend he's had for years. I am the only woman with the right to arouse my husband. Likewise he is the only man with the right to arouse me. I am here, ready and willing to give him the time of his life, committed to his happiness, committed to his sexual satisfaction. He doesn't need porn to do that. And if having a variety of women is so important that he can't live without it, then he's obviously not ready to be married.
> 
> Anyway, now I'm done.


This is the "intentional arousal right of the spouse". :rofl:
I'm sorry, I just found that to be slightly hilarious.


----------



## Created2Write

MissMe said:


> This is the "intentional arousal right of the spouse". :rofl:
> I'm sorry, I just found that to be slightly hilarious.


So you'd have no issue whatsoever with another person arousing your spouse? And I don't mean, "Dang, they're hot" and now you're suddenly feeling more sexual. I mean full on arousal. You'd have no issue with that?

To each their own. But my husband and I see the marriage bed as a sacred place, and we choose not to let anyone else into it. Intentionally reaching arousal and orgasm through visual stimuli of someone other than our spouse is something we consider to be a breach in our conjugal rights. Laugh at it if you think it's funny. We don't.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Created2Write said:


> So you'd have no issue whatsoever with another person arousing your spouse? And I don't mean, "Dang, they're hot" and now you're suddenly feeling more sexual. I mean full on arousal. You'd have no issue with that?
> 
> To each their own. But my husband and I see the marriage bed as a sacred place, and we choose not to let anyone else into it. Intentionally reaching arousal and orgasm through visual stimuli of someone other than our spouse is something we consider to be a breach in our conjugal rights. Laugh at it if you think it's funny. We don't.


I basically don't get any sex WITHOUT her being aroused by someone/thing besides me. Do I take issue to it? Sure. Does that change anything or make it better? Nope.


----------



## MissMe

Created2Write said:


> So you'd have no issue whatsoever with another person arousing your spouse? And I don't mean, "Dang, they're hot" and now you're suddenly feeling more sexual. I mean full on arousal. You'd have no issue with that?
> 
> To each their own. But my husband and I see the marriage bed as a sacred place, and we choose not to let anyone else into it. Intentionally reaching arousal and orgasm through visual stimuli of someone other than our spouse is something we consider to be a breach in our conjugal rights. Laugh at it if you think it's funny. We don't.


Lady, it was a funny thought to me, so I laughed about it. In fact, I'm laughing about it again. 

However, I love that you and your husband feel the way you do. I think it's down right precious. :smthumbup:

I don't claim to be the only person able to arouse my SO, and I can't possibly know what or who he is thinking about every time he is aroused. You don't either. There are no thought police, yet...right?


----------



## johnnycomelately

Men think they are entitled to porn because they are. As are women. Porn is legal and is deemed acceptable by more than half the population. 

The question is why anybody would think they are entitled to demand that any other adult doesn't use porn.


----------



## always_alone

JCD said:


> Watching Briana Banks bumping uglies? It is an image of a real woman but it is what it is.
> 
> So unless I am invested so much into these images that actual neglect is occuring, no, it's not cheating.


Different couples will tolerate different degrees of sexual interaction with others. For some, a webcam isn't cheating because it isn't physical touching. For others an open marriage is just fine because each partner prioritizes the primary relationship. It is up to the couple to decide if a given sexual activity is cheating.

I agree that porn doesn't involve much in the way of interaction, but if you, for example, know your porn star by name, follow her work, invest a fair amount of time in your sexual gratification with her, turn to porn because your wife isn't good enough, kinky enough, frequent enough, defend the porn habit to the death because you need the variety, are bored with your relationship, and so on, then you are indeed involving another in your sex life.

Many people/couples are fine with this level of involvement because they both equally desire that involvement or at least do not find that it takes away from their sex lives. Others do see it as threatening, and certainly sometimes they're absolutely right to think so. 

And neglect is in the eye of the beholder. You may think that you're not neglecting your wife, but she may have quite a different opinion. My SO, for example, thinks I should be satisfied with what I'm getting, even if it is a **** half-soft from porn watching, because we typically have sex more often than many (most?) couples, and *he* is completely satisfied with his sex life. 

Is he the unreasonable one, or am I?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I've only read the OP, and plan for this to be my only response to this thread. I've responded to porn threads before, and I know my view is probably not very popular. But, I've known many people who use porn, all of them had been addicted to it, and I'd like to discuss my conclusions.
> 
> Firstly, porn is very different than alcohol, imo. Not everyone is going to be addicted to alcohol. Some people don't even like the taste of it. But taken in moderation, alcohol more than likely won't impact a marriage. Porn, however, _will_, even if the person using it isn't abusing it, so long as their spouse is uncomfortable with it.
> 
> Porn is not essential to marriage, or to any individual. And, frankly, I find the fact that so many people are determined to defend and justify their use of porn a sign of just how bad it is to use. And for the record I view masturbation, romance novels and soap operas the same way. I don't want anything arousing me other than my husband. During the time I read romance novels, I found that it became more difficult for me to be aroused. I started needing to fantasize, play over sexual sentences in my mind to orgasm, imagine that my husband was rouge-ish hunk I intended to resits; and I wasn't reading very many. I think I read three in the course of a few months.
> 
> I stopped, and things went back to normal. I even avoid intense sexual scenes in movies and television shows because I don't want to be aroused by anything else, or anyone else. And I thank God that my husband feels the same. The men I know who've used porn started with a little bit, and the curiosity pushed them deeper into it until they couldn't stop. I know that not everyone becomes addicted, but just because someone isn't addicted doesn't mean that they _should_ use it.
> 
> If both the husband and wife are fine with porn, then at least there is a mutual agreement to the risks. But if one is uncomfortable with it and the other insists on using it, I see that as utter selfishness...disregarding our spouses concerns for the sake of our personal independence is unfeeling. If porn is _so_ important, that it comes before your spouses feelings, there is already a major issue in the person using it, imo.
> 
> No one is entitled to something that makes their spouse feel uncomfortable, so long as they're not being unreasonable. Spending time with friends, for instance, isn't something that should make a husband or wife uncomfortable. But something that can and often does effect the sexual aspect of marriages in a negative way, should matter to the one using that thing.
> 
> Anyway, my two cents.


Well at least everyone knows we're not the same person with two accounts now. 

I personally don't see why anyone would be uncomfortable with their partner taking care of themselves if they're getting all they want.

We all have things that turn us on that our partner does not possess. No one person can realistically be everything, and I'd certainly rather not put conscious effort into my daily life to avoid getting turned on by something I like, or deprive myself of fantasy.

Its fools gold actually, because you can't control where your mind goes while you're dreaming. Your sexual desires will be expressed one way or another, and its doubtful they'll always involve your partner.

If my girl has a fantasy of taking a strap on to a tall, burly, hairy man... that's gonna stay in fantasy land, but I don't condemn her for it.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

always_alone said:


> ...And neglect is in the eye of the beholder. You may think that you're not neglecting your wife, but she may have quite a different opinion. My SO, for example, thinks I should be satisfied with what I'm getting, even if it is a **** half-soft from porn watching, because we typically have sex more often than many (most?) couples, and *he* is completely satisfied with his sex life.
> 
> Is he the unreasonable one, or am I?


Is it a matter of being "reasonable"? If one is unsatisfied, shouldn't that mean that they come together to find a mutually agreeable/compatible situation to move forward with? Or do we have to take sides, draw lines, and fight to the death to keep it "our way"?
My SO, for example, thinks I should be satisfied with what I'm getting, even if it is from a ***** numb from vibrator use, because we typically have sex as often as the average couple, and *she* is completely satisfied with her sex life (see how that works)
Your husband is NOT this way because of the porn. Does it help? No. Your husband is this way because he enjoys masturbating. He USES porn to fuel this, but its just as likely that without he would find some other avenue.
The hoops come to mind in many cases. I know many guys who seem to have to do a million things to "get it", on the rare occasion that they do. In many cases, its still unremarkable/unethusiastic. So why not just take care of it themselves. They probably honestly think they are doing the wife a favor (and many outside would agree). Further, many would argue that the only reason the wife is insecure/angry/upset is that now the hoop-jumping won't happen just for the chance at a little fun. 
***disclaimer*** this clearly does not apply to some.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> Read the rest of this thread, moral stance on the porn industry, losing attraction to a partner who uses porn it has been said all over TAM many times.
> I had one friend who was genuinely insecure about porn, showing her links to hot guys in porn so she concentrated on what she likes rather than what her partner liked pretty much dissolved her insecurity.
> Had a discussion with a friend who took a moral stance on porn, she said 'if my boyfriend started to masturbate looking at a woman on the street I would be offended, because it's on a computer or tv some how i'm all of a sudden suppose to be fine with it or because many others do it i'm all of a sudden suppose to me fine with it', porn isn't the problem to her, her partners actions would be the problem.
> May or may not agree with it but her point doesn't automatically become invalid because it's different to many others .


Then I assume she doesn't want her man to masterbate period, because god only knows what he's thinking.

Glad we've moved up from banning porn to banning masturbation... all over concern over the natural and unavoidable fact that yes, everyone is or can be turned on by something other than their spouse.


----------



## Grayson

Created2Write said:


> So you'd have no issue whatsoever with another person arousing your spouse? And I don't mean, "Dang, they're hot" and now you're suddenly feeling more sexual. I mean full on arousal. You'd have no issue with that?
> 
> To each their own. But my husband and I see the marriage bed as a sacred place, and we choose not to let anyone else into it. Intentionally reaching arousal and orgasm through visual stimuli of someone other than our spouse is something we consider to be a breach in our conjugal rights. Laugh at it if you think it's funny. We don't.


I won't laugh, because it's what works for the two of you.

For us, as I mentioned earlier, we're more along the lines of, "However you want to start your motor is fine, as long as I'm your first avenue of doing something about it, the second and only other option being taking care if yourself."

To illustrate, we go to a strip club together roughly once every month or two. Sometimes I get a lap dance. Sometimes (definitely more often than me) she does. Sometimes we both do. We've got our favorites and talk to them every time we see them, whether we get dances or not. There's one who's become a recent favorite for both of us. We've seen her there every time we've gone, and we started going about 3 years ago. She's not normally our "type," but a misunderstanding with a friend on my birthday last year led to me getting a dance from her. Well, the last time we went, I got a dance early in the evening, and I can say in all honesty that it's the first time in my life that a lap dance has actually aroused me. (I've enjoyed them, and it's put me in a sexual frame of mind, but never aroused me.) After she left our table, I mentioned it to my wife, who said that I was certainly free to get another from her before we left, because I was going home with her, not the dancer.

Each couple has to set -and respect - their own boundaries. Glad you guys have some that work for you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

always_alone said:


> Different couples will tolerate different degrees of sexual interaction with others. For some, a webcam isn't cheating because it isn't physical touching. For others an open marriage is just fine because each partner prioritizes the primary relationship. It is up to the couple to decide if a given sexual activity is cheating.
> 
> I agree that porn doesn't involve much in the way of interaction, but if you, for example, know your porn star by name, follow her work, invest a fair amount of time in your sexual gratification with her, turn to porn because your wife isn't good enough, kinky enough, frequent enough, defend the porn habit to the death because you need the variety, are bored with your relationship, and so on, then you are indeed involving another in your sex life.
> 
> Many people/couples are fine with this level of involvement because they both equally desire that involvement or at least do not find that it takes away from their sex lives. Others do see it as threatening, and certainly sometimes they're absolutely right to think so.
> 
> And neglect is in the eye of the beholder. You may think that you're not neglecting your wife, but she may have quite a different opinion. My SO, for example, thinks I should be satisfied with what I'm getting, even if it is a **** half-soft from porn watching, because we typically have sex more often than many (most?) couples, and *he* is completely satisfied with his sex life.
> 
> Is he the unreasonable one, or am I?


Blink blink. Defend to the death? Study her career and filmography? Find her sexier than my wife?

Huh. I can recall (hang on) 5 porn star names off the top of my head...oops, 7 (two dudes) and I have maybe seen two films for any particular one.

I would say I indulge far less frequently than most couples have sex.

So...you seem to be a lot more invested in this topic than I am.

I'm up to 8 by the way...just in the spirit of honesty


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I forgot to add _why_ I'm uncomfortable with it: simply put, I don't think we should allow ourselves to be aroused by people other than our spouse. I especially don't think we should _pursue_ being aroused by other people than our spouse. I know that spontaneous arousal can't always be controlled, but intentionally pursuing something with the intention of being aroused, without our spouse involved, is unhealthy for marriages in the long run, imo. I can't say that I have proof, other than how I felt the two times my husband looked up inappropriate things on the internet.
> 
> It wasn't insecurity. I know that I'm better than some fake, airbrushed woman on the screen. But damn right it was jealousy. Arousing my husband is _*my*_ right as his wife. No other women has the right to that, whether she be in some movie, or a woman he works with, or a friend he's had for years. I am the only woman with the right to arouse my husband. Likewise he is the only man with the right to arouse me. I am here, ready and willing to give him the time of his life, committed to his happiness, committed to his sexual satisfaction. He doesn't need porn to do that. And if having a variety of women is so important that he can't live without it, then he's obviously not ready to be married.
> 
> Anyway, now I'm done.


So I put you firmly in the "wake my a$$ up" camp.  I'm not sure the majority of women want to be woken up by hubby and told to turn him on because he wants an orgasm. No one is really 100% available to satisfy. Heck, even the concept of having sex when you're not in the mood but your partner is, is foreign to most people. "Hey babe, wake up. I know you haven't gotten much sleep... but I need a quick bj. I'm feeling lazy tonight and I want an orgasm." Probably not gonna go over well for most couples. Instead, he'll just go without... I think that's the opposite of satisfaction isn't it?

Also, because one can be aroused involuntarily, it logically can't be someone's elses right to be the source of arousal, though you're perfectly fine with not wanting him actively pursuing other sources of arousal. But we pursue alternate sources generally because our partner cannot provide what we need at that moment. So in effect, what you're really demanding is that he forgo satisfaction 

And isn't insecurity at the root of jealousy? You feel jealous not because your rights are violated, even if such a right existed. The emotional condition as a result of a violation of your rights isn't jealousy... its injustice - being unfairly treated. You're not being unfairly treated unless you are being otherwise denied sex as a result of the porn use - which in my prior posts I tried to show generally isn't the case. Rather, you feel jealous because you fear abandonment; fear of being replaced by porn. A prototype insecurity.

Given the vast majority of men do not in fact replace their wives with porn, and rather supplement their sex lives with porn when the wife is otherwise unavailable or disinterested at that particular moment, I'd argue this fear has little rational basis. Like never driving a car because you might be killed in an accident.


----------



## Created2Write

And here I said I'd only respond once....lol.

If my husband takes care of himself(masturbates) thinking about a woman other than me, or watching a woman have sex with another man(and it's not the two of us), or reading sexually explicit text that I didn't write for him, then I'm *not* getting "all I want". I have no issue with masturbation and fantasizing, so long as I am his fantasy. He shouldn't need another woman's body to turn him on. If he does, he's not ready for a monogamous relationship. 

Having fantasies is one thing. I think we all have fantasies. It doesn't mean we act on them. I never had a ONS in my life. My husband has been my only lover. I think about what it would be like to have a ONS quite often. In fact, it's our most frequent roleplaying scenario. But I would never pursue a real one just because I'm curious. 

My sexual thoughts are reserved for the most important man in my life: my husband. And I absolutely don't buy into the idea that one person can't be everything for us. My husband _is_ everything for me, and he's better than any of my fantasies anyway. He is my ultimate fantasy. Everything else in my mind is nothing more than imagination, and fantasy can never compete with reality. I would much rather have the man who has dedicated himself to me than some hunk on a screen who has spent way too much time in the sun. 

I would never judge anyone based on what they dream at night, nor any random thoughts that jump into their head. We can't control those, but we can control where we take those thoughts. Choosing to put those fantasies before our spouse is where I take issue. And yes, imo, going to something or someone else for sexual satisfaction when our spouse is ready and willing to satisfy those cravings _is_ putting the fantasy first, imo. 

I understand needing variety with the person we're with. I take no issue with that, and it's why my husband make our own videos. It's why we send sexually explicit pictures and text messages. He's told me many times that he loves it when I send him sexy pics and texts. He masturbates to _them_, rather than to some woman pretending to enjoy what she's doing. I can't even begin to describe the amount of trust that has built between us; how much more attractive that makes him, and he's already smokin'; how sexy and desirable and special that makes me feel.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ET1SSJonota said:


> Further, many would argue that the only reason the wife is insecure/angry/upset is that now the hoop-jumping won't happen just for the chance at a little fun.
> ***disclaimer*** this clearly does not apply to some.


To wit, the other half of my point: control.

Control and insecurity.

The third is based on a person's sense of morality... but I don't think I'll ever figure out how watching past events by willing participants is immoral. So yeah, I throw it out... because there really is no point in arguing morality.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

JCD said:


> Huh. I can recall (hang on) 5 porn star names off the top of my head...oops, 7 (two dudes) and I have maybe seen two films for any particular one.
> 
> I would say I indulge far less frequently than most couples have sex.
> 
> So...you seem to be a lot more invested in this topic than I am.
> 
> I'm up to 8 by the way...just in the spirit of honesty


Uh oh... now that you mention dudes I do know two porn stars.

Ron Jeremy and Peter North.

I'm not gay!!!!!!!! :rofl:


----------



## Starstarfish

I'm not sure that's an apt example. It's more like wondering if test driving a bright red convertible Camero may or may not change your feelings about driving the family SUV. Sure you may look at such sports cars driving down the street and you might wonder what it would be like driving them. But will those feelings only intensify once you get behind the drivers seat? 

So - in the end, it might be a difference of opinion to whether or not the fear of such is rational or whether its all based on insecurity. Given that there's no real statistical way to track how much porn the average man watches or how often (how many people would seriously be honest) and track that against marriage sexual satisfaction according to him or her, or even general emotional satisfaction. 

And that would be trying to track when things are obvious and known - that's not even pondering what effects might be subconscious.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> And here I said I'd only respond once....lol.
> 
> If my husband takes care of himself(masturbates) thinking about a woman other than me, or watching a woman have sex with another man(and it's not the two of us), or reading sexually explicit text that I didn't write for him, then I'm *not* getting "all I want". I have no issue with masturbation and fantasizing, so long as I am his fantasy. He shouldn't need another woman's body to turn him on. If he does, he's not ready for a monogamous relationship.


He doesn't need another woman's body to turn him on... but another woman's body does turn him on. If you're not available, you demand he just go without entirely? Is that satisfying?



Created2Write said:


> Having fantasies is one thing. I think we all have fantasies. It doesn't mean we act on them. I never had a ONS in my life. My husband has been my only lover. I think about what it would be like to have a ONS quite often. In fact, it's our most frequent roleplaying scenario. But I would never pursue a real one just because I'm curious.


Right. So what if his fantasy is to be mauled by 15 naked women? Some men would be so nervous in such a situation that they wouldn't be able to function, but still have the fantasy. Having the fantasy is not a replacement to you, but its still arousing, and its not you. Generally speaking, we can't control the fantasies we have. We don't really know why we even fantasize about a particular thing. 

Hell, I have some odd ones.  Porn is the outlet for those particular fantasies, and I'm not at all interested in making them real. Just as you may really fantasize about a ONS that you will never have. In effect, you're fantasizing that your hubby is not quite your hubby... same physical person perhaps, but without the attachment, and with added non-emotional lust and risque factor. Hot hot hot.

You can share this particular fantasy with your hubby through roleplay, many fantasies cannot be similarly shared.



Created2Write said:


> My sexual thoughts are reserved for the most important man in my life: my husband. And I absolutely don't buy into the idea that one person can't be everything for us. My husband _is_ everything for me, and he's better than any of my fantasies anyway. He is my ultimate fantasy. Everything else in my mind is nothing more than imagination, and fantasy can never compete with reality. I would much rather have the man who has dedicated himself to me than some hunk on a screen who has spent way too much time in the sun.


I wasn't talking preferences, I'm talking specific differences in what someone lusts for and the qualities of their spouse. Many men for example, wish their wives would play a little more dirty and confident, but its simply not within their wive's personality to do so. It wouldn't even feel right if she tried to. It might be unconvincing or just come off funny.

Some women might be turned on by the muscled hunk in contrast to their chubby hubby. They still love him and wouldn't replace him with the hunk. Its fantasy.



Created2Write said:


> Choosing to put those fantasies before our spouse is where I take issue. And yes, imo, going to something or someone else for sexual satisfaction when our spouse is ready and willing to satisfy those cravings _is_ putting the fantasy first, imo.


I'm not saying fantasy comes before one's spouse. One's spouse comes first (actually, she always cums first, but I digress).

The case I've laid out for porn is pretty specific: she's not readily available or capable of meeting that particular desire at that particular moment. Whether it be a fantasy she simply can't ever meet, she's sleeping and he wants a lazy orgasm... what have you.



Created2Write said:


> I understand needing variety with the person we're with. I take no issue with that, and it's why my husband make our own videos. It's why we send sexually explicit pictures and text messages. He's told me many times that he loves it when I send him sexy pics and texts. He masturbates to _them_, rather than to some woman pretending to enjoy what she's doing. I can't even begin to describe the amount of trust that has built between us; how much more attractive that makes him, and he's already smokin'; how sexy and desirable and special that makes me feel.


I'm in yo house stealin' yo vids.  :rofl:

That's awesome. Many wives aren't comfortable with sending explicit pictures or even presenting themselves in a sexually objectifying manner.

If all of my erotic interests could be met by my woman, I'd have no use for porn. I'll give you that.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> So I put you firmly in the "wake my a$$ up" camp.  I'm not sure the majority of women want to be woken up by hubby and told to turn him on because he wants an orgasm. No one is really 100% available to satisfy. Heck, even the concept of having sex when you're not in the mood but your partner is, is foreign to most people. "Hey babe, wake up. I know you haven't gotten much sleep... but I need a quick bj. I'm feeling lazy tonight and I want an orgasm." Probably not gonna go over well for most couples. Instead, he'll just go without... I think that's the opposite of satisfaction isn't it?


Actually, I'm the one who does the waking up in our marriage.  He's never woken me up once. But if he did, and he put in the foreplay to arouse me, damn right I'd be there for him 100% of the time. Oh, and he absolutely loved being woken up. He was instantly awake, instantly hard, and it was some of the best sex we've had.



> Also, because one can be aroused involuntarily, it logically can't be someone's elses right to be the source of arousal, though you're perfectly fine with not wanting him actively pursuing other sources of arousal.


That's why I said "intentionally pursue arousal with someone else". Obviously those spontaneous moments can't be forseen or avoided or controlled, so I have absolutely no issue there.



> But we pursue alternate sources generally because our partner cannot provide what we need at that moment. So in effect, what you're really demanding is that he forgo satisfaction


Nope. I'm not demanding anything of the kind. If he needs a release at work, I am absolutely able to satisfy him in that moment through pictures, videos and sexting. Our own personal porn. He's texted me a couple of times when he was getting himself off, and he wanted me to sext with him. After the first couple of texts, I was aroused and satisfied myself with his responses. It was totally hot. And when he came home, we tore into each other. 



> And isn't insecurity at the root of jealousy?


Not in all cases. If my husband had an affair, I would definitely be jealous, but not because of insecurity...or wondering why he cheated, what was wrong with me, was she more attractive, was she better in bed, etc. I'd be jealous because he's *my* husband, not hers. She took what was mine. Hence, jealousy. I think for others jealousy can be coupled insecurity, but it isn't always.



> You feel jealous not because your rights are violated, even if such a right existed. The emotional condition as a result of a violation of your rights isn't jealousy... its injustice - being unfairly treated. You're not being unfairly treated unless you are being otherwise denied sex as a result of the porn use - which in my prior posts I tried to show generally isn't the case. Rather, you feel jealous because you fear abandonment; fear of being replaced by porn. A prototype insecurity.


Nope. I don't fear being abandoned, nor do I fear being replaced by porn. My husband doesn't believe in using porn so I have nothing to be afraid of. We agreed before we married that porn use wouldn't be tolerated by either of us, nor would reading romance novels or erotica. But for the sake of conversation, if my husband started using porn and refused to quit, _he_ would be the one dealing with abandonment, not me. I wouldn't stick around. Because for me even casual use of porn means I'm being unfairly treated, especially since I _am_ ready, willing and eager to satisfy him sexually. If he has a sexual need, why not come to me? I've never turned him down before. Why go to porn first? 

See, I absolutely believe that one person can be totally sexually satisfying, to the point that outward forms of stimuli like porn aren't needed. I understand that not every husband or wife is as available to their spouse as my husband and I are to each other. But even so, I would much rather see a couple fight to make their spouse the ultimate center of their sexual world, than see them go to other sources of stimuli. One of the main purposes of marriage, in my opinion, is to have a monogamous sexual relationship in which both spouses are entirely dedicated to the others sexual satisfaction. That they go through that search together, mutually enjoying the journey. This journey is made more difficult when other things interfere, whether they be physical people, or images on a screen, imo. 



> Given the vast majority of men do not in fact replace their wives with porn, and rather supplement their sex lives with porn when the wife is otherwise unavailable or disinterested at that particular moment, I'd argue this fear has little rational basis. Like never driving a car because you might be killed in an accident.


But why supplement? It's not a necessity. I get that there are many cases of marriages where the wife refuses to have sex with her husband, and he uses porn to relieve the tension, etc. But, frankly, shouldn't he put that effort into trying to have sex with his wife, and fixing the issues? Moreover, how many of these issues are stimulated or made worse by the husband's porn use? Having a mutually satisfying sex life with our spouse _is_ a necessity for a healthy marriage. Porn is not a necessity. If the wife has an issue with porn, and that is the crux of the issue, why hold onto it? 

I also get that I'm being very general, but I do not buy into the idea that porn should just be accepted and wives should just get over it. Some of us legitimately don't like it, and the fact that so many try to defend it, to me, proves that the issue goes deeper than many admit.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> I'm not sure that's an apt example. It's more like wondering if test driving a bright red convertible Camero may or may not change your feelings about driving the family SUV. Sure you may look at such sports cars driving down the street and you might wonder what it would be like driving them. But will those feelings only intensify once you get behind the drivers seat?
> 
> So - in the end, it might be a difference of opinion to whether or not the fear of such is rational or whether its all based on insecurity. Given that there's no real statistical way to track how much porn the average man watches or how often (how many people would seriously be honest) and track that against marriage sexual satisfaction according to him or her, or even general emotional satisfaction.
> 
> And that would be trying to track when things are obvious and known - that's not even pondering what effects might be subconscious.


Nor would it help prove whether the porn use caused the marital sexual dissatisfaction or whether the porn use was the result of marital sexual disatisfaction.

I'm inclined to think that disatisfaction is more the driver of the increased porn use, than vice versa. I think we have more men here complaining about not getting enough sex than we have women complaining about porn... and that's saying something! lol

Test driving isn't a very fair example. I don't think watching a pornstar is a test drive. A better example to porn would be not going to an auto show of sportscars because you drive an SUV. Of course you like the sportscars... but you own the SUV for a reason.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Then I assume she doesn't want her man to masterbate period, because god only knows what he's thinking.
> 
> Glad we've moved up from banning porn to banning masturbation... all over concern over the natural and unavoidable fact that yes, everyone is or can be turned on by something other than their spouse.


As I said before the action of looking at porn and masturbating is what she doesn't want in her relationship, she feels it's disrespectful (they have homemade though). 
There was masturbating way before people were able to watch porn it's not a essential element to masturbating. 
Her boyfriend is a adult, if he felt oh so controlled he could leave. 
I love the thought if there's no porn there's no masturbating lol.


----------



## Callmecrazy

I'm not opposed to it unless my husband denies me, which he's been doing a lot lately. He's giving the excuses that he's stressed at work, I want it too much etc. Sorry, the fact that I walked in on him watching it several times in the early morning hours the past couple of months really explains it. I'm not patient and I'm not going to wait for him to desire me. I'll use my BOF, watch my own porn and NOT hide it. He needs to realize very quickly that I won't put up with that BS for too long. I have needs too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> He doesn't need another woman's body to turn him on... but another woman's body does turn him on. If you're not available, you demand he just go without entirely? Is that satisfying?


If he doesn't need another woman's body, then he shouldn't be pursuing one. Period. He has me. And the only times I'm not available has been when I'm sick. He can usually wait for a day or two, or he can't, he relieves himself to pictures, videos and texts from me. So yes, I think that's very satisfying.



> Right. So what if his fantasy is to be mauled by 15 naked women? Some men would be so nervous in such a situation that they wouldn't be able to function, but still have the fantasy. Having the fantasy is not a replacement to you, but its still arousing, and its not you. Generally speaking, we can't control the fantasies we have. We don't really know why we even fantasize about a particular thing.


I obviously can't track his thoughts or what goes on in his imagination. He's told me before that he doesn't fantasize about other women. _If_ this were to be one of his fantasies, judging by what he's told me before, it's not something he would actively think about. And I agree that we can't control _what_ our fantasies are, but we can control what we do with them. 



> Hell, I have some odd ones.  Porn is the outlet for those particular fantasies, and I'm not at all interested in making them real. Just as you may really fantasize about a ONS that you will never have. In effect, you're fantasizing that your hubby is not quite your hubby... same physical person perhaps, but without the attachment, and with added non-emotional lust and risque factor. Hot hot hot.
> 
> You can share this particular fantasy with your hubby through roleplay, many fantasies cannot be similarly shared.


Just because a fantasy can't be shared, doesn't mean we should obsess over them, or look for ways to satisfy them without literally being mauled by 15 women. Some fantasies shouldn't be thought about, imo. 



> I wasn't talking preferences, I'm talking specific differences in what someone lusts for and the qualities of their spouse. Many men for example, wish their wives would play a little more dirty and confident, but its simply not within their wive's personality to do so. It wouldn't even feel right if she tried to. It might be unconvincing or just come off funny.
> 
> Some women might be turned on by the muscled hunk in contrast to their chubby hubby. They still love him and wouldn't replace him with the hunk. Its fantasy.


I don't disagree with the logic of this. My point, though, is that just because something is a fantasy doesn't mean we should pursue it, even if we can find it in something like porn. For the woman who knows her husband wants her to be dirty, but it isn't in her personality, how would she feel if she knew that part of her sexual relationship with her husband was being replaced by porn? I mean, it really is no wonder that women feel they have to compete with this. Anytime their husband wants something their wives can't or aren't comfortable giving them, they just go find it with someone else. That's _not_ building trust, it's destroying it. And it takes trust for some women to step out of their comfort zone and try new sexual things. 



> I'm not saying fantasy comes before one's spouse. One's spouse comes first (actually, she always cums first, but I digress).
> 
> The case I've laid out for porn is pretty specific: she's not readily available or capable of meeting that particular desire at that particular moment. Whether it be a fantasy she simply can't ever meet, she's sleeping and he wants a lazy orgasm... what have you.


I get it. But you don't _need_ it. You're entitled to a healthy sexual relationship with your wife. She is entitled to total sexual exclusivity. No one is entitled to porn, because it is not a necessity. 

My husband has told me that his number one sexual fantasy is to experience anal sex. With how big he is, it's just not possible. At all. We tried once. Wow, was it a terrible experience. He's accepted that, more than likely, this is something he won't experience, or if he does, it will be on my terms since last time I bawled as he tried to go in. Not having anal sex isn't going to destroy or even harm our sexual relationship. He's free to do whatever else he wants with my anus. Just because he wants to know what that's like, doesn't mean he goes and tries to find that satisfaction somewhere else, whether it be with another women who is willing to meet that fantasy, or watching it happen between two people during porn. 

We are not entitled to each and every one of our fantasies, especially when they effect our spouse.



> I'm in yo house stealin' yo vids.  :rofl:


You'd never find them.  

Oh, wait...



> That's awesome. Many wives aren't comfortable with sending explicit pictures or even presenting themselves in a sexually objectifying manner.
> 
> If all of my erotic interests could be met by my woman, I'd have no use for porn. I'll give you that.


I've stripped for my husband, I intend to put a pole in our master bedroom once we have a house(and learn how to use it), I wear the ****ty leingere outfits, I've wanted to buy handcuffs for a while now...he's even paid me before.  See, I know my husband is a very sexual person. So I don't expect sexual exclusivity, while also denying him pleasure and fun. I try pretty much any position he wants, and also initiate the ones he really loves, even if I don't care for them much. I love sending him texts, I love making videos...not so much watching them afterward, though he enjoys watching me turn ten shades of red. rofl. I love seeing the happiness and pleasure on his face, knowing that I caused that happiness and pleasure, and knowing that he has no use for porn because he has me. 

I know our situation is different, but I absolutely believe that if we can have a rockin' sex life without porn(except our own, of course), others can to. It takes work, no denying it. But it is 100% possible if both are willing to work and compromise.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> As somewhat of a seduction artist myself, I have to say that if I have a choice between giving a woman an orgasm - something measured in seconds -


See? A perfect example of how porn skews a man's understanding of women's sexuality. A proper orgasm is not just seconds, but minutes and multiples. And she should be screaming loud enough to wake the neighbours, not just moaning a little "oh, oh, oh".

Just sayin'


----------



## Racer

Created2Write said:


> That's why I said "intentionally pursue arousal with someone else". Obviously those spontaneous moments can't be forseen or avoided or controlled, so I have absolutely no issue there..



Honestly, you have a validity to your argument that it is “intentional arousal”... I’d question the ‘from someone else’ part and replace it with “from something else”. Porn isn’t a person to me as it is a ‘thing’. Sort of like if you want a good laugh, you might watch a comedian. Is that taking away from your husband’s ability to make you laugh just because a comedy is funny? Of coarse not, nor do you see it as a person as much as you do a genre that has a specific emotional response within you. 

So I think it comes back to your perception of any ‘sexual stuff’ is to be your domain only. I also think you are realistic about it. If you want that entire responsibility, you are also accepting of what that means. You seem accepting it is also up to your husband and ‘leave the gate open’. Kudo’s. 

My wife is nothing like that at all. Gatekeeper. I can knock on the door, but she decides if she wants to open it or if I tried hard enough to warrant an invitation. Conditions are attached and she maintains control versus the relinquishment of control. She can’t control when I want ‘sexual stuff’, so that opens the door to ‘something else’ to satisfy a emotional response I want .....


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> He's never woken me up once. But if he did, and he put in the foreplay to arouse me, damn right I'd be there for him 100% of the time.


And there we have it, conditions. Sometimes we don't want to have conditions. At that particular moment, we might just want a lazy orgasm plain and simple... and the reason most won't wake you up, and will just take care of it themselves. We might be pretty tired too, but still want that quick orgasm.



Created2Write said:


> That's why I said "intentionally pursue arousal with someone else". Obviously those spontaneous moments can't be forseen or avoided or controlled, so I have absolutely no issue there.


Yeah I know, I'm just pointing out that that kills off the concept of arousal being a right. You may grant each other that priviledge, but its certainly not your right.



Created2Write said:


> Nope. I'm not demanding anything of the kind. If he needs a release at work, I am absolutely able to satisfy him in that moment through pictures, videos and sexting. Our own personal porn. He's texted me a couple of times when he was getting himself off, and he wanted me to sext with him. After the first couple of texts, I was aroused and satisfied myself with his responses. It was totally hot. And when he came home, we tore into each other.


Clone yourself. Some women are so insecure they'd never sext or document themselves.

Tangentially, I do wonder sometimes as we age, whether our sexual tastes age with us. When I'm 60 is a pic of my 50 year old wife going to turn me on still? Or will I still crave the body of a 20-something. Given that "teen" porn is probably the largest category by video count, I'm inclined to think its the latter.

How do people account for this? I mean, does an old guy really want a dirty pic of his old wife's boobs any more than she wants to see his moobs? If aging bodies are not longer hot, then visual stimuli is out the door is it not?

Grandma wearing lingerie seems a little weird.

And I'm sure I just offended half the forum. 




Created2Write said:


> Not in all cases. If my husband had an affair, I would definitely be jealous, but not because of insecurity...or wondering why he cheated, what was wrong with me, was she more attractive, was she better in bed, etc. I'd be jealous because he's *my* husband, not hers. She took what was mine. Hence, jealousy. I think for others jealousy can be coupled insecurity, but it isn't always.


I get what you're saying, but what you're describing isn't jealousy, it really is injustice... and I don't think you're being truly honest with yourself. The way you put it, she may as well have stolen your car. You aren't jealous of her stealing your car.



Created2Write said:


> If he has a sexual need, why not come to me? I've never turned him down before. Why go to porn first?


Porn isn't a first option for a healthy person. Its sought as a result of the inability to meet a desire with one's sexual partner... be that fantasy, unconditional sex, availability of one's partner, moments of laziness, all the way to having been denied sex.



Created2Write said:


> See, I absolutely believe that one person can be totally sexually satisfying


But... you added conditions. "Arouse me", then we'll play. If his desire is a lazy orgasm, and you require arousal before he can satisfy that desire, then his desire wasn't met in the way it would have been with porn. He doesn't have to disturb sleep and arouse the porn to have his need met.

In this manner men often view porn as a way to not place their lazy sexual burden on their wives - he knows he's being lazy. He wants to be lazy once in awhile. Now, if you all make dozens of videos and he can get arousal from them, awesome. Most women won't make a library of their sexual exploits. If he has an orgy fantasy however, he's still out of luck.

This is why I say supplement. That fantasy is off limits in the real world, as is the realistic likelihood of waking one's wife up for a bj for that lazy orgasm desire... nevermind avoiding feeling like an a$$ for doing so.

And then of course, there's just the fact that we like looking at naked women. lol



Created2Write said:


> If the wife has an issue with porn, and that is the crux of the issue, why hold onto it?


I wouldn't be with someone who took a zero tolerance stance against porn, so I don't know. It would be too uptight and controlling for me. I consider both extremes - zero porn and using porn to the neglect of one's spouse - to be equally wrong headed.



Created2Write said:


> I also get that I'm being very general, but I do not buy into the idea that porn should just be accepted and wives should just get over it. Some of us legitimately don't like it, and the fact that so many try to defend it, to me, proves that the issue goes deeper than many admit.


Everyone is free to accept or not accept whatever they want. I like porn. My use of it doesn't harm or deprive in any way. I won't be controlled and told what I can do to my own body. If she's jealous of pixels, she's likely jealous of every woman that catches my eye... and I don't need that anyway.

Similarly, she might not like tattoos... but it isn't gonna stop me from getting one. My body is mine first... hers second. And what I arouse myself with is my business and my right (this one is actually a right) consistent with my vows. No one else is having sex with me. If she wants more sex, she can come at me for more sex to her heart's delight. But she's not going to tell me what I can and can't look at, whether I can orgasm on my own or not, whether I shake once or twice after urinating, or whether I am allowed to scratch that itchy spot on my arm.

I'm not sure what deeper thing you could be alluding to.


----------



## AnnieAsh

C2W, I looked into a stripper pole for my bedroom but it would cost a bunch of money because of the vaulted ceilings! I was super disappointed!

I don't watch the videos I make either. Too embarrassing to see myself in the throes.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> As I said before the action of looking at porn and masturbating is what she doesn't want in her relationship, she feels it's disrespectful (they have homemade though).
> There was masturbating way before people were able to watch porn it's not a essential element to masturbating.
> Her boyfriend is a adult, if he felt oh so controlled he could leave.
> I love the thought if there's no porn there's no masturbating lol.


The link is that someone is fantasizing about someone other than their spouse. There is obviously masturbation without porn and I never gave any impression otherwise.

If you really have a problem with porn, you probably have a problem with masturbation, because, as I said... God only knows what he's thinking about when he does it.

Control. Thou shalt not orgasm except by me. Perhaps this should be added to vows. 

Maybe there's some men would would be equally happy to do away with vibrators and dildos. Whatcha think ladies?


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The link is that someone is fantasizing about someone other than their spouse. There is obviously masturbation without porn and I never gave any impression otherwise.
> 
> If you really have a problem with porn, you probably have a problem with masturbation, because, as I said... God only knows what he's thinking about when he does it.
> 
> Control. Thou shalt not orgasm except by me. Perhaps this should be added to vows.
> 
> Maybe there's some men would would be equally happy to do away with vibrators and dildos. Whatcha think ladies?


I don't actually own a vibrator or a dildo just because I want the best orgasms I have to be with my husband. So I wouldn't have a problem with doing away with them. I also wouldn't care about doing away with romance novels. I don't read them. 

I'm an equal opportunity lady. What I expect from him is what I give as well.


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> See? A perfect example of how porn skews a man's understanding of women's sexuality. A proper orgasm is not just seconds, but minutes and multiples. And she should be screaming loud enough to wake the neighbours, not just moaning a little "oh, oh, oh".
> 
> Just sayin'


Or, perhaps, rather than "porn skewing perceptions," it's just a matter of perspective? Even men feel an orgasm build and build, but we tend to equate orgasm with ejaculation, which could be represented by a peak, then a rapid decline. As a rough analogy, look at the pattern of a man's orgasm as an upside down "V". Meanwhile, a woman builds, peaks, may plateau for a bit, decline then possibly build again, peak, plateau, etc. I'd wager many men, as they do with themselves, consider that peak(s) as orgasm(s) as opposed to the entire cycle. Not a perspective necessarily born of porn, but rather of viewing it differently (perhaps because there's a visible outcome - no pun intended - that we associate with orgasm).

As for that last part, I'd amend that to say she should _be wanting to_ scream that loudly. Practical matters (so you want that small person in the next room to come rushing in to make sure you're not killing mom?) can get in the way of that being the case. Not to mention, because of others in the house, some people - men and women alike - just plain train themselves to be quiet during sex.

Just sayin'. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

Racer said:


> Honestly, you have a validity to your argument that it is “intentional arousal”... I’d question the ‘from someone else’ part and replace it with “from something else”. Porn isn’t a person to me as it is a ‘thing’. Sort of like if you want a good laugh, you might watch a comedian. Is that taking away from your husband’s ability to make you laugh just because a comedy is funny? Of coarse not, nor do you see it as a person as much as you do a genre that has a specific emotional response within you.


Right. I'd add, though, that I didn't vow to only laugh at my husband's jokes and no one else's. I _did_ vow to remain sexually and emotionally devoted to him and him alone. 



> So I think it comes back to your perception of any ‘sexual stuff’ is to be your domain only. I also think you are realistic about it. If you want that entire responsibility, you are also accepting of what that means. You seem accepting it is also up to your husband and ‘leave the gate open’. Kudo’s.


Definitely. My husband has a strong drive, stronger than mine most of the time. We both love oral sex, foreplay and PIV, but we also love trying new things, and exploring new ideas. I do expect sexual exclusivity, but not without offering my commitment to his satisfaction in return. 



> My wife is nothing like that at all. Gatekeeper. I can knock on the door, but she decides if she wants to open it or if I tried hard enough to warrant an invitation. Conditions are attached and she maintains control versus the relinquishment of control. She can’t control when I want ‘sexual stuff’, so that opens the door to ‘something else’ to satisfy a emotional response I want .....


I'm really sorry too hear this. You shouldn't have to "try hard enough" to get your wife to open up to you sexually. That sort of thing really annoys me, because I absolutely believe that if a wife expects sexual exclusivity, she must accept the responsibilities that come with that. 

And it's not that I _can't_ say no. I know I can, and he knows that if I ever do it will be for a legitimate reason. But if I have a legitimate reason, he usually knows not to ask right then anyway, so it's not much of an issue. Sometimes we'll talk about having sex, and then we'll both be too tired, or it'll get too late and we'll mutually decide to wait. Happened last night, and I intend to make up for it tonight.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The link is that someone is fantasizing about someone other than their spouse. There is obviously masturbation without porn and I never gave any impression otherwise.
> 
> If you really have a problem with porn, you probably have a problem with masturbation, because, as I said... God only knows what he's thinking about when he does it.
> 
> Control. Thou shalt not orgasm except by me. Perhaps this should be added to vows.


As I have said time and again I don't have a problem with porn and use it myself,
also I said the action of watching porn is what she objects to (in her eye's because it's on a tv or computer does not make it any different to masturbating in front of someone else) and not once did I say she tries to control or worries about what he fantasizes about. 
You see fantasizing and porn in the same ballpark some don't.

As a full grown adult he is entitled to watch porn if he wishes , but if he does he then can't complain she isn't as attracted to him as she once was (he was definitely forewarned). She is as much in control of what kind of man attracts her as he is control about what he fantasizes about.


----------



## JCD

TiggyBlue said:


> There was masturbating way before people were able to watch porn it's not a essential element to masturbating.


Blink blink blink...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Well, I shouldn't laugh. I am using a definition of 'porn' which includes fantasizing about someone else.

So as soon as Tanuk saw Loana, there was porn attached to masturbation.

Slightly more seriously, Venus of Willendorf says that man's love affair with porn goes way back.


----------



## TiggyBlue

AnnieAsh said:


> I don't actually own a vibrator or a dildo just because I want the best orgasms I have to be with my husband. So I wouldn't have a problem with doing away with them. I also wouldn't care about doing away with romance novels. I don't read them.
> 
> I'm an equal opportunity lady. What I expect from him is what I give as well.


Same for me vibrators left me desensitized for hours after, didn't have a great sex session if I used them earlier


----------



## TiggyBlue

JCD said:


> Blink blink blink...
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Well, I shouldn't laugh. I am using a definition of 'porn' which includes fantasizing about someone else.
> 
> So as soon as Tanuk saw Loana, there was porn attached to masturbation.
> 
> Slightly more seriously, Venus of Willendorf says that man's love affair with porn goes way back.


lol no I meant porn as in pic's video's of real people.


----------



## AnnieAsh

JCD said:


> Blink blink blink...
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Well, I shouldn't laugh. I am using a definition of 'porn' which includes fantasizing about someone else.
> 
> So as soon as Tanuk saw Loana, there was porn attached to masturbation.
> 
> Slightly more seriously, Venus of Willendorf says that man's love affair with porn goes way back.


She looks like my neighbor.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> As I said.... you want to control the other person. Any person has a right to get off all by their lonesome whatever and whenever they feel like it.


Yep. And you can go to a strip club, have cybersex, visit a prostitute, have an affair or troll craig's list for dates if you want. No one can control when or where you get off.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Why is it I can predict that any argument you, trenton, ladyofthelake, and catherine enter will immediately go to "women are victims"? Your question presumes your statement is true. I'm not possessive and don't know any guys who are. I reject your premise. In my experience, women on average are a hell of a lot more possessive than men - who are more often utterly oblivious.


Why is it that you cannot read something that points out double standards without accusing women of playing the victim card?

The fact is there are a number of threads on this site that show that not all men take the view that you do. I won't post the links because I'm not quite sure of the rules about cross posting here, but a very quick search revealed the following:

- man questioning use of romance novels, and whether women compare their husbands to protagonists
- man complaining that wife watched porn while turning him down for sex
-man claiming that reading 50 shades of grey will make women hate their man
-man complaining that wife's viewing habits are excessive
-a few threads with men complaining about the type of porn his wife is watching (because they were of "objectionable topics" or because the porn couple did not look like them)

There are also a bunch of threads about men worried about other men looking at their wives, what their wives are wearing in public; another few with men complaining that their wives are asking to fulfill sexual fantasies that they are not comfortable with.

So no, not all men are out there telling their wives to fantasize and watch as much porn as they want.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

TiggyBlue said:


> Same for me vibrators left me desensitized for hours after, didn't have a great sex session if I used them earlier


After probably hundreds of times with her vibrator, I suppose I should be happy that she does occasionally get off with just me. Assuming I'm not just totally being duped. I wouldn't assume that because there are plenty of times she tells me she can't...


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> And here I said I'd only respond once....lol.
> 
> If my husband takes care of himself(masturbates) thinking about a woman other than me, or watching a woman have sex with another man(and it's not the two of us), or reading sexually explicit text that I didn't write for him, then I'm *not* getting "all I want". I have no issue with masturbation and fantasizing, so long as I am his fantasy. He shouldn't need another woman's body to turn him on. If he does, he's not ready for a monogamous relationship.


Ah some enticing loop holes,
porn is okay so long as it's YOU and HIM. Videotaping and watching later is awesome and a lot of women don't like it. Plus role play and bedroom stories are awesome which involve fictitious versions of you and he.


----------



## always_alone

JCD said:


> Blink blink blink...
> 
> Slightly more seriously, Venus of Willendorf says that man's love affair with porn goes way back.


Let's not confuse nudity with porn. There is no clear evidence that this was ever a sexualized figure. And more likely a symbol of fertility than a wank device. Plus anthropologists have found that many of these nude statues were likely clothed at the time -- it's just that the cloth rotted away.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> And I agree that we can't control _what_ our fantasies are, but we can control what we do with them.
> 
> Just because a fantasy can't be shared, doesn't mean we should obsess over them, or look for ways to satisfy them without literally being mauled by 15 women. Some fantasies shouldn't be thought about, imo.


We should clearly ignore them. It is by far more satisfying. 



Created2Write said:


> For the woman who knows her husband wants her to be dirty, but it isn't in her personality, how would she feel if she knew that part of her sexual relationship with her husband was being replaced by porn? I mean, it really is no wonder that women feel they have to compete with this. Anytime their husband wants something their wives can't or aren't comfortable giving them, they just go find it with someone else. That's _not_ building trust, it's destroying it.


That part of their sexual relationship isn't being replaced, because it didn't exist to be replaced... and won't exist because she doesn't want it to or otherwise isn't comfortable with it. Follow? She refuses bdsm, so he watches videos of bdsm when he desires to scratch that itch.

The alternative is for him to completely deny his desire for it. That doesn't sound very fulfilling.



Created2Write said:


> I get it. But you don't _need_ it. You're entitled to a healthy sexual relationship with your wife. She is entitled to total sexual exclusivity. No one is entitled to porn, because it is not a necessity.
> [/qutoe]
> 
> haha, in reality, we are entitled to porn. I can watch it at my discretion without anyone's permission because I'm a grown man. You're not actually entitled to sex with your spouse.
> 
> Its still their body. Being married doesn't change that. If I go take this supposed entitlement against her wishes, its still rape. No such entitlement exists.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are not entitled to each and every one of our fantasies, especially when they effect our spouse.
> 
> 
> 
> Porn doesn't effect the spouse, unless its use is depriving her of what she would otherwise get. I don't think the bdsm that she doesn't want qualifies as something she would otherwise get.
> 
> If its a turn off, so be it, find someone else. Not everyone is into my tats either, and I'm damn sure not gonna let someone tell me what I can put on my body.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've stripped for my husband, I intend to put a pole in our master bedroom once we have a house(and learn how to use it), I wear the ****ty leingere outfits, I've wanted to buy handcuffs for a while now...he's even paid me before.  See, I know my husband is a very sexual person. So I don't expect sexual exclusivity, while also denying him pleasure and fun. I try pretty much any position he wants, and also initiate the ones he really loves, even if I don't care for them much. I love sending him texts, I love making videos...not so much watching them afterward, though he enjoys watching me turn ten shades of red. rofl. I love seeing the happiness and pleasure on his face, knowing that I caused that happiness and pleasure, and knowing that he has no use for porn because he has me.
> 
> I know our situation is different, but I absolutely believe that if we can have a rockin' sex life without porn(except our own, of course), others can to. It takes work, no denying it. But it is 100% possible if both are willing to work and compromise.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And it looks like you have a rockin' sex life. Do you think the average woman is considering a pole? My ex wife wouldn't strip if her life depended on it. She was experimental, but far too self conscious to actually do anything sexy... I didn't even get sexts. lol Definitely a "lights off" type of woman in spite of her great body. No no no... I had to learn to be able to flip a switch in my head without her. What you're describing is certainly more ideal, and I'd say out of the norm... and maybe a guy wouldn't care as much about porn given the circumstances.
> 
> I wonder how all of this works for the guy whose wife has become overweight but he's still attracted to skinny women? Heck, even if he himself is overweight and could never actually get that woman he's actually attracted to. Is sex purely a physical or emotional sensation to them? I personally like being turned on visually... and I think any guy who doesn't is probably lying.
> 
> So what do we do when we're no longer attracted to our aging overweight bodies? Ignore the visual desire?
Click to expand...


----------



## AnnieAsh

ET1SSJonota said:


> After probably hundreds of times with her vibrator, I suppose I should be happy that she does occasionally get off with just me. Assuming I'm not just totally being duped. I wouldn't assume that because there are plenty of times she tells me she can't...


Honestly, I'd see about having her get rid of the vibrator. I am extremely orgasmic and I refuse to use them because I know it would interfere with my ability to enjoy sex. They desensitize the vagina and there is no way a penis can mimic the vibrations. 

It would take a while to retrain her body to be able to orgasm without it, but it can be done.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Why is it that you cannot read something that points out double standards without accusing women of playing the victim card?


Once is pointing out a double standard. With you, every discussion seemingly results in a victim card being played. lol

I don't think I've seen a single double standard where you have.



always_alone said:


> So no, not all men are out there telling their wives to fantasize and watch as much porn as they want.


Not all birds fly either. But when I say "birds fly", I think everyone gets the message.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The link is that someone is fantasizing about someone other than their spouse. There is obviously masturbation without porn and I never gave any impression otherwise.
> 
> If you really have a problem with porn, you probably have a problem with masturbation, because, as I said... God only knows what he's thinking about when he does it.
> 
> Control. Thou shalt not orgasm except by me. Perhaps this should be added to vows.
> 
> *Maybe there's some men would would be equally happy to do away with vibrators and dildos. Whatcha think ladies?*


Go for it. As Annie said, save the best for your spouse... or in some cases, save them all for your spouse. But then, we'll get the "It's my body!" argument again, huh?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls...the more you insist that a good married sex life such as Created's is "not the norm", the more I just feel sad for you. You aren't reading around enough if you STILL think "most" women are like your ex-wife.

Every single one of my friends has no problem with a strip pole in their home and in fact many of them also have no problem with porn.

Are you still reading old message boards with stories from the 80's or something?

Time to move into the new world, dear Dvls! The one where women actually want sex, enjoy sex, and have no problems with sex!


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> Honestly, I'd see about having her get rid of the vibrator. I am extremely orgasmic and I refuse to use them because I know it would interfere with my ability to enjoy sex. They desensitize the vagina and there is no way a penis can mimic the vibrations.
> 
> It would take a while to retrain her body to be able to orgasm without it, but it can be done.


Oh that's been said many a time, it takes less than a week for it to find its way back next to the bed. 

I really should stop whining (in this thread) about my personal situation. However, it does pertain to the topic. I just need to dial back the personal drama...


----------



## TiggyBlue

AnnieAsh said:


> Honestly, I'd see about having her get rid of the vibrator. I am extremely orgasmic and I refuse to use them because I know it would interfere with my ability to enjoy sex. They desensitize the vagina and there is no way a penis can mimic the vibrations.
> 
> It would take a while to retrain her body to be able to orgasm without it, but it can be done.


I'm totally with Annie on this one, I LOVED my toys but it did have a impact on how sex felt physically so chucked them. For me no point having something in your life that distracts in any way from me and my husbands sex life (maybe I should have just kept them and gone on a rant about how it's my body and no one controls me lol)


----------



## Thundarr

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Tangentially, I do wonder sometimes as we age, whether our sexual tastes age with us. When I'm 60 is a pic of my 50 year old wife going to turn me on still? Or will I still crave the body of a 20-something. Given that "teen" porn is probably the largest category by video count, I'm inclined to think its the latter.


My taste changed or expanded at least. When I was 20, anywhere from 18-30 was attractive. Now I'm 45 and anywhere from 20-45 is attractive to me. 

Now that I think about it, we have three grandkids and I think my wife is hot. Does that mean I have a granny fetish????


----------



## AnnieAsh

TiggyBlue said:


> I'm totally with Annie on this one, I LOVED my toys but it did have a impact on how sex felt physically so chucked them. For me no point having something in your life that distracts in any way from my and my husbands sex life (maybe I should have just kept them and gone on a rant about how it's my body and no one controls me lol)


LOL! The way some of the men talk here, you'd think 90% of women are anti-sex shrews but it seems like there are a lot of women here who ENJOY sex. Not only ENJOY it, REVEL in it. Go Vagina Power!

I don't think C2W, Tiggy et al are outliers. We are average redblooded women who like sex.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Thundarr said:


> My taste changed or expanded at least. When I was 20, anywhere from 18-30 was attractive. Now I'm 45 and anywhere from 20-45 is attractive to me.
> 
> Now that I think about it, we have three grandkids and I think my wife is hot. Does that mean I have a granny fetish????


Only if that's your porn choice - after all it defines you doesn't it?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Count me and all my friends in that pool too, Annie.

I also have three girlfriends whose husbands are LD. To hear them talk, you'd think that men in general had no sex drives. Luckily I know better....but I still just wonder when my friends will get the memo and get divorced so they can find men who do want sex.


----------



## always_alone

Grayson said:


> Or, perhaps, rather than "porn skewing perceptions," it's just a matter of perspective? Even men feel an orgasm build and build, but we tend to equate orgasm with ejaculation, which could be represented by a peak, then a rapid decline. As a rough analogy, look at the pattern of a man's orgasm as an upside down "V". Meanwhile, a woman builds, peaks, may plateau for a bit, decline then possibly build again, peak, plateau, etc.


No, no. It is not just a matter of perspective or where you start counting. When I say minutes, I'm not referring to the full cycle. The orgasm peak can be sustained for 5-10 minutes (maybe more?) before the decline, and then built back up again.

And maybe porn isn't entirely to blame for lack of knowledge about this, but there's no doubt in my mind that porn does not do any justice whatsoever to women's sexuality. It's all about the man and what gets him off.


----------



## TiggyBlue

ET1SSJonota said:


> Oh that's been said many a time, it takes less than a week for it to find its way back next to the bed.
> 
> I really should stop whining (in this thread) about my personal situation. However, it does pertain to the topic. I just need to dial back the personal drama...


It's kind of on the same page though, something in your life (porn/toys/novels) that's taking away from real life sex (whether it the physical aspect or attraction).


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Honestly, I'd see about having her get rid of the vibrator. I am extremely orgasmic and I refuse to use them because I know it would interfere with my ability to enjoy sex. They desensitize the vagina and there is no way a penis can mimic the vibrations.
> 
> It would take a while to retrain her body to be able to orgasm without it, but it can be done.


I have no axe to grind with my wife's vibrator(s). They - along with other assorted toys that we each have - serve a purpose that neither of us are biologically equipped to meet.

Her g-spot vibe curves far more sharply than I do, and is shorter...I can't directly stimulate the g-spot during insertion. Also, as a result of her hysterectomy, the "cap" sewn up has left her shallower than she was pre-op; not to brag, because I see myself as average at best, but the few times we've had full intercourse since the surgery, I've "bottomed out" and it's been painful for her. I'm not opposed to taking things a bit easier to prevent that, but she prefers things to be...vigorous. The shorter vibrator helps with that.

Her rabbit vibe provides direct clitoral stimulation along with insertion, something I can't do without the help of a ring.

Her small "starter" vibrator has been retasked for anal stimulation.

None of them desensitize her...they're just tools in our toolbox. They're not replacements for sex between us, but rather supplements. She's also gotten me a couple of sleeves but, frankly, going with the concept of "lazy orgasms," when I'm taking care of things for myself, they're a bit more trouble than I want to go through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Always said: "It's all about the man and what gets him off."

This isn't technically true, since there is literally porn about everything...including porn that doesn't even have men IN it. And I'm talking about stuff that isn't even directed to men.

But that isn't the type of porn most men are into, so I know what kind you are talking about, too.

Just sayin', technical foul will be called unless we include ALL porn.


----------



## LongWalk

always_alone said:


> See? A perfect example of how porn skews a man's understanding of women's sexuality. A proper orgasm is not just seconds, but minutes and multiples. And she should be screaming loud enough to wake the neighbours, not just moaning a little "oh, oh, oh".
> 
> Just sayin'


How come we don't get to experience that


----------



## always_alone

TiggyBlue said:


> (maybe I should have just kept them and gone on a rant about how it's my body and no one controls me lol)


And if anyone says otherwise, don't forget to accuse them of playing the victim card!


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> And there we have it, conditions. Sometimes we don't want to have conditions. At that particular moment, we might just want a lazy orgasm plain and simple... and the reason most won't wake you up, and will just take care of it themselves. We might be pretty tired too, but still want that quick orgasm.


I assumed he wanted sex, and not just a BJ. If all he wanted was a BJ or a HJ, then obviously I wouldn't need foreplay. Besides, I nearly _always_ want an orgasm. If he's awake and he can't sleep and wants an orgasm, and doesn't wake me up to ask me to give him one, he's being utterly selfish by excluding me. I can't respect that at all. 



> Yeah I know, I'm just pointing out that that kills off the concept of arousal being a right. You may grant each other that priviledge, but its certainly not your right.


Fine, I'll reword my phrasing then. _Intentional_ arousal is my right as his wife. When he pursues sexual arousal, he should be pursuing it with me. When he's pursuing sexual satisfaction, he should be pursuing it with me. It is a hell of a lot more than a privilege.



> Clone yourself. Some women are so insecure they'd never sext or document themselves.


I really do wish that were different.



> Tangentially, I do wonder sometimes as we age, whether our sexual tastes age with us. When I'm 60 is a pic of my 50 year old wife going to turn me on still? Or will I still crave the body of a 20-something. Given that "teen" porn is probably the largest category by video count, I'm inclined to think its the latter.


I hope you're wrong. 



> How do people account for this? I mean, does an old guy really want a dirty pic of his old wife's boobs any more than she wants to see his moobs? If aging bodies are not longer hot, then visual stimuli is out the door is it not?


Isn't sex about much more than _just_ physical appearance? At least for my husband and I it is. I don't just go around screwing whoever is the hottest. I don't intend on being attracted sexually to anyone but my husband, no matter how old me are. And just because he's old, doesn't mean he's gonna be fat. Health is important, and even though we will age, we're going to keep ourselves in the best condition we can. But regardless, I'd like to think that after...thirty to forty years together my husband would love me and be sexually attracted to me for much more than my body. 



> Grandma wearing lingerie seems a little weird.
> 
> And I'm sure I just offended half the forum.
> 
> I get what you're saying, but what you're describing isn't jealousy, it really is injustice... and I don't think you're being truly honest with yourself. The way you put it, she may as well have stolen your car. You aren't jealous of her stealing your car.


You can think what you like. I know myself and what I would and would not feel. 



> Porn isn't a first option for a healthy person. Its sought as a result of the inability to meet a desire with one's sexual partner... be that fantasy, unconditional sex, availability of one's partner, moments of laziness, all the way to having been denied sex.


All of this at the expense of the other person, though? Regardless of how they feel?



> But... you added conditions. "Arouse me", then we'll play. If his desire is a lazy orgasm, and you require arousal before he can satisfy that desire, then his desire wasn't met in the way it would have been with porn. He doesn't have to disturb sleep and arouse the porn to have his need met.


Selfish. Plain and simple. Making it seem like he's doing me a favor doesn't change the fact that he would be putting himself first, and this choosing the porn over his wife. 

He doesn't have to arouse me first before he gets his bj. But, I absolutely 100% believe that sex should be mutually satisfying. If he gets his, why shouldn't I get mine? Especially since, once I've given him the bj, I'm gonna be aroused now too. In this instance he's putting his own needs above those of his wife, and saying, "I really don't want to give you an orgasm, or put in the time for it. And I know you'll want one if I wake you up and ask for a bj, so I'll just avoid the work, wack off to porn and go back to sleep."

Selfish. I would never, could never, respect my husband if he made such a choice. 



> In this manner men often view porn as a way to not place their lazy sexual burden on their wives - he knows he's being lazy. He wants to be lazy once in awhile. Now, if you all make dozens of videos and he can get arousal from them, awesome. Most women won't make a library of their sexual exploits. If he has an orgy fantasy however, he's still out of luck.


See, this is why I love my husband so very, very much: he doesn't see his sexual desires as independent from mine. In fact, he gets more sexual pleasure out of giving me pleasure. He'd rather take the time to satisfy me, than be lazy and let me sleep while he masturbated. I love that and respect that more than I can say. I trust him with my sexuality completely, and it's why he got my virginity before marriage, even though I'd vowed to wait til my wedding night. 



> This is why I say supplement. That fantasy is off limits in the real world, as is the realistic likelihood of waking one's wife up for a bj for that lazy orgasm desire... nevermind avoiding feeling like an a$$ for doing so.


My husband knows that I welcome him waking me up for a bj or full on intercourse. I value our sex life much, much more than an hour of sleep. So does he. So no need for him to feel like an a$$. No need to supplement when your spouse really is 100% available to you in some way. I truly believe that when people focus more on obtaining this kind of a sexual relationship, rather than just pursue porn, they will find that porn really isn't a need at all. 



> And then of course, there's just the fact that we like looking at naked women. lol


Which is why he has me. 



> I wouldn't be with someone who took a zero tolerance stance against porn, so I don't know. It would be too uptight and controlling for me. I consider both extremes - zero porn and using porn to the neglect of one's spouse - to be equally wrong headed.


Even if she was willing to satisfy you completely? I know you think it's impossible, but still...I find that sad, to be honest. There really is nothing like the trust that is built with sexual exclusivity. 

I could never be with someone who used porn even a little bit and tried to justify it. If I found out my husband was a closet user, but really wanted to quit, that would be different. But if he said what you just did, my response would be, "Hope the porn keeps you warm at night...cause I sure as hell won't be there". As harsh as that may sound. 



> Everyone is free to accept or not accept whatever they want. I like porn. My use of it doesn't harm or deprive in any way. I won't be controlled and told what I can do to my own body. If she's jealous of pixels, she's likely jealous of every woman that catches my eye... and I don't need that anyway.


I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. No offense, but this attitude is just a major, major turn off to me. A woman, ready and eager to sexually satisfy her husband, to the point of even wanting him to wake her up if he needs a release in the middle of the night, and that's not enough? I don't get it. I really don't. It sounds an awful lot like an inability to even be satisfied. 



> Similarly, she might not like tattoos... but it isn't gonna stop me from getting one. My body is mine first... hers second.


And here is the divide. Masturbation is something you to do to your body, which I don't have an issue with. If I ever asked or told my husband not to masturbate, I would expect him to laugh at me. But since you can masturbate without porn and without fantasizing, it doesn't make sense to say that porn is only physical. It's not. What we see throughout the day, what he hear, enter our minds and stay there. It's why I can still recall that sex scene in that one romance novel I read years ago. _Those_ things linger, and _can_ haunt us later. Porn isn't just one moment of arousal devoid of any connection whatsoever. At least, I don't buy that it is. You body may be yours, but your mind effects everything else. Including what arouses you, what your attracted to, etc. 



> And what I arouse myself with is my business and my right (this one is actually a right) consistent with my vows. No one else is having sex with me. If she wants more sex, she can come at me for more sex to her heart's delight. But she's not going to tell me what I can and can't look at, whether I can orgasm on my own or not, whether I shake once or twice after urinating, or whether I am allowed to scratch that itchy spot on my arm.


I hope this works for you. It reeks of selfishness and entitlement to me, two things that don't support trust and love. It's putting self first, and the spouse second. FTR, I don't believe that we have a right to arouse ourselves with whatever we want. Not. At. All. I disagree 100%. 



> I'm not sure what deeper thing you could be alluding to.


That it goes beyond entitlement to an unwillingness and inability to give it up, thus needing to use statements like your last paragraph to justify using it.


----------



## always_alone

LongWalk said:


> How come we don't get to experience that


I dunno. I've tried to give as close as possible back to my SO, but he doesn't really believe it's possible for men -- and isn't interested in practicing any of the tantric tricks that supposedly prolong the orgasmic experience. So my hands are tied.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Grayson said:


> I have no axe to grind with my wife's vibrator(s). They - along with other assorted toys that we each have - serve a purpose that neither of us are biologically equipped to meet.
> 
> Her g-spot vibe curves far more sharply than I do, and is shorter...I can't directly stimulate the g-spot during insertion. Also, as a result of her hysterectomy, the "cap" sewn up has left her shallower than she was pre-op; not to brag, because I see myself as average at best, but the few times we've had full intercourse since the surgery, I've "bottomed out" and it's been painful for her. I'm not opposed to taking things a bit easier to prevent that, but she prefers things to be...vigorous. The shorter vibrator helps with that.
> 
> Her rabbit vibe provides direct clitoral stimulation along with insertion, something I can't do without the help of a ring.
> 
> Her small "starter" vibrator has been retasked for anal stimulation.
> 
> None of them desensitize her...they're just tools in our toolbox. They're not replacements for sex between us, but rather supplements. She's also gotten me a couple of sleeves but, frankly, going with the concept of "lazy orgasms," when I'm taking care of things for myself, they're a bit more trouble than I want to go through.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if she suddenly stopped seeming actually interested in sex with you? Didn't care to have an orgasm with just you anymore? Didn't seem to be ABLE, for the most part, to orgasm with you? Actually think about that a little bit. 

I'm not "threatened" by this. I'm not "insecure" about this. I don't think she is going to leave me for the vibrator. I DO think it has replaced me as the "go to" for my wife sexually.


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> Ah some enticing loop holes,
> porn is okay so long as it's YOU and HIM. Videotaping and watching later is awesome and a lot of women don't like it. Plus role play and bedroom stories are awesome which involve fictitious versions of you and he.


But in our personal porn, or in the roleplaying, it's all still within the confinements of our marriage. No outside party is being brought in our marriage bed in any way.


----------



## LongWalk

Starstarfish said:


> I'm not sure that's an apt example. It's more like wondering if test driving a bright red convertible Camero may or may not change your feelings about driving the family SUV. Sure you may look at such sports cars driving down the street and you might wonder what it would be like driving them. But will those feelings only intensify once you get behind the drivers seat?
> 
> So - in the end, it might be a difference of opinion to whether or not the fear of such is rational or whether its all based on insecurity. Given that there's no real statistical way to track how much porn the average man watches or how often (how many people would seriously be honest) and track that against marriage sexual satisfaction according to him or her, or even general emotional satisfaction.
> 
> And that would be trying to track when things are obvious and known - that's not even pondering what effects might be subconscious.


I've read before than porn is the biggest part of the Internet. Facebook is nothing compared to porn.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Always said: "It's all about the man and what gets him off."
> 
> This isn't technically true, since there is literally porn about everything...including porn that doesn't even have men IN it. And I'm talking about stuff that isn't even directed to men.


Fair enough. I confess I don't know much about lesbian porn and was generalizing from mainstream heterosexual stuff where "lesbians" are always looking over their shoulder for that elusive penis.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Created2Write said:


> I assumed he wanted sex, and not just a BJ. If all he wanted was a BJ or a HJ, then obviously I wouldn't need foreplay. Besides, I nearly _always_ want an orgasm. If he's awake and he can't sleep and wants an orgasm, and doesn't wake me up to ask me to give him one, he's being utterly selfish by excluding me. I can't respect that at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine, I'll reword my phrasing then. _Intentional_ arousal is my right as his wife. When he pursues sexual arousal, he should be pursuing it with me. When he's pursuing sexual satisfaction, he should be pursuing it with me. It is a hell of a lot more than a privilege.
> 
> 
> 
> I really do wish that were different.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't sex about much more than _just_ physical appearance? At least for my husband and I it is. I don't just go around screwing whoever is the hottest. I don't intend on being attracted sexually to anyone but my husband, no matter how old me are. And just because he's old, doesn't mean he's gonna be fat. Health is important, and even though we will age, we're going to keep ourselves in the best condition we can. But regardless, I'd like to think that after...thirty to forty years together my husband would love me and be sexually attracted to me for much more than my body.
> 
> 
> 
> You can think what you like. I know myself and what I would and would not feel.
> 
> 
> 
> All of this at the expense of the other person, though? Regardless of how they feel?
> 
> 
> 
> Selfish. Plain and simple. Making it seem like he's doing me a favor doesn't change the fact that he would be putting himself first, and this choosing the porn over his wife.
> 
> He doesn't have to arouse me first before he gets his bj. But, I absolutely 100% believe that sex should be mutually satisfying. If he gets his, why shouldn't I get mine? Especially since, once I've given him the bj, I'm gonna be aroused now too. In this instance he's putting his own needs above those of his wife, and saying, "I really don't want to give you an orgasm, or put in the time for it. And I know you'll want one if I wake you up and ask for a bj, so I'll just avoid the work, wack off to porn and go back to sleep."
> 
> Selfish. I would never, could never, respect my husband if he made such a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is why I love my husband so very, very much: he doesn't see his sexual desires as independent from mine. In fact, he gets more sexual pleasure out of giving me pleasure. He'd rather take the time to satisfy me, than be lazy and let me sleep while he masturbated. I love that and respect that more than I can say. I trust him with my sexuality completely, and it's why he got my virginity before marriage, even though I'd vowed to wait til my wedding night.
> 
> 
> 
> My husband knows that I welcome him waking me up for a bj or full on intercourse. I value our sex life much, much more than an hour of sleep. So does he. So no need for him to feel like an a$$. No need to supplement when your spouse really is 100% available to you in some way. I truly believe that when people focus more on obtaining this kind of a sexual relationship, rather than just pursue porn, they will find that porn really isn't a need at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why he has me.
> 
> 
> 
> Even if she was willing to satisfy you completely? I know you think it's impossible, but still...I find that sad, to be honest. There really is nothing like the trust that is built with sexual exclusivity.
> 
> I could never be with someone who used porn even a little bit and tried to justify it. If I found out my husband was a closet user, but really wanted to quit, that would be different. But if he said what you just did, my response would be, "Hope the porn keeps you warm at night...cause I sure as hell won't be there". As harsh as that may sound.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. No offense, but this attitude is just a major, major turn off to me. A woman, ready and eager to sexually satisfy her husband, to the point of even wanting him to wake her up if he needs a release in the middle of the night, and that's not enough? I don't get it. I really don't. It sounds an awful lot like an inability to even be satisfied.
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the divide. Masturbation is something you to do to your body, which I don't have an issue with. If I ever asked or told my husband not to masturbate, I would expect him to laugh at me. But since you can masturbate without porn and without fantasizing, it doesn't make sense to say that porn is only physical. It's not. What we see throughout the day, what he hear, enter our minds and stay there. It's why I can still recall that sex scene in that one romance novel I read years ago. _Those_ things linger, and _can_ haunt us later. Porn isn't just one moment of arousal devoid of any connection whatsoever. At least, I don't buy that it is. You body may be yours, but your mind effects everything else. Including what arouses you, what your attracted to, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this works for you. It reeks of selfishness and entitlement to me, two things that don't support trust and love. It's putting self first, and the spouse second. FTR, I don't believe that we have a right to arouse ourselves with whatever we want. Not. At. All. I disagree 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> That it goes beyond entitlement to an unwillingness and inability to give it up, thus needing to use statements like your last paragraph to justify using it.


Your views and stance on sex in marriage are NOT the norm. Not even close. Especially after a few kids and a decade together. Speaking of, how long have you been together?


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> No, no. It is not just a matter of perspective or where you start counting. When I say minutes, I'm not referring to the full cycle. The orgasm peak can be sustained for 5-10 minutes (maybe more?) before the decline, and then built back up again.
> 
> And maybe porn isn't entirely to blame for lack of knowledge about this, but there's no doubt in my mind that porn does not do any justice whatsoever to women's sexuality. It's all about the man and what gets him off.


Strictly speaking, if we diagram it out, an extended peak would be that plateau that I mentioned.  Generally speaking, men don't seem to view that plateau as an orgasm, because our personal experience is, build, build, build, peak/squirt, drop like a rock. The closest frame of reference we have is what's called "edging"...building _almost_ to that peak but not quite, then stopping for a bit to rebuild towards the peak, lather, rinse, repeat til ready to hit the peak. We may intellectually understand an extended orgasm, but we can't relate, so our POV is that the orgasm is ashen you reach that peak.

Agreed that we could stand to understand a bit better, but I don't think it's fair to lay the blame for that misunderstanding at porn's feet. That just goes back to the whole, "We get it's fiction." point I've been making, just like we all know that the minds of forensic analyses made on shows like CSI, NCIS or Bones take far longer than is conducive to a fast-paced drama where a sense of urgency is instilled. (Pardon me while I digress to illustrate that point a bit. In the early 90's, the second season of Twin Peaks was criticized because the Laura Palmer murder mystery was taking "too long" and the network pushed the producers for a resolution. Each episode constituted a day for the characters, and the next episode was the next day, and so on. So, the murder investigation that was takin "too long" ended up taking about two weeks' of the characters' time...pretty realistic, if not fast, for a true murder investigation.)

I won't argue that last point, as it applies to the bulk of what's out there. It certainly does apply to the bulk of what's out there. And that's simply because, historically, the primary audience for porn has been men. That's changing, albeit I'll grant it's changing slowly. There's a growing niche market of porn made by and/or for women. That, to me, indicates that more women are becoming accepting of porn and seeing it for what it is: a genre of entertainment. The audience must be there, or the niche wouldn't continue to exist. I'd have no problem if it grew and became as prominent as other sub-genres. In fact, the only reason I would see it continuing as a separate sub-genre would be to identify it for its target audience...which could (and probably does) include some men (as it stands, when I see the sub-genres labeled in stores, I tend to see it grouped as "for women/couples"). While I'm at it, let me just say that I also see "mainstream, commercial" porn as a sun-genre. The genre encompasses all explicit materials, with the sub-genres giving an idea as to the type of content.

Maybe it's a generational thing...as younger generations become more aware of it, they find that they're no opposed to the concept...they just don't see specific content that appeals to them. So, rather than turning away completely, they either make I known that they're an audience to be tapped or just make what they wan to see themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> We should clearly ignore them. It is by far more satisfying.
> 
> That part of their sexual relationship isn't being replaced, because it didn't exist to be replaced... and won't exist because she doesn't want it to or otherwise isn't comfortable with it. Follow? She refuses bdsm, so he watches videos of bdsm when he desires to scratch that itch.
> 
> The alternative is for him to completely deny his desire for it. That doesn't sound very fulfilling.


Fulfilling for whom, though? Again, this putting his sexual fulfillment above his wife's, assuming she isn't okay with porn use. 

Something I forgot to add earlier: the fact that my husband doesn't nag me about anal sex, and doesn't watch porn involving anal or anything, makes me _want_ to fulfill that desire all the more, seeing how much he respects my boundaries. I may not be comfortable with it now, but I hope to be someday. And since anal sex is not a need, and is merely a fantasy, I absolutely expect him to wait for me to get to that place. If he were to suddenly decide he wasn't patient enough to wait and started watching porn with anal sex, I'd leave him. Plain and simple. 

So yeah, you can do whatever you like with your body and your fantasies, but don't expect your wife to stick around. She should be more important than a fantasy. 



> haha, in reality, we are entitled to porn. I can watch it at my discretion without anyone's permission because I'm a grown man. You're not actually entitled to sex with your spouse.
> 
> Its still their body. Being married doesn't change that. If I go take this supposed entitlement against her wishes, its still rape. No such entitlement exists.


*sigh* Do you really have to use an extreme you know I'm not talking about? Having a mutually satisfying sex life with our spouse _is_ an entitlement in marriage. At least in my opinion. That doesn't mean take her against her will.  That wouldn't be very mutual would it? 

Sure, as a grown man you're entitled to watch whatever you want. And as a grown woman, I'm entitled to withhold sex whenever I want. 

But both should be willing to accept whatever consequences come of those choices, because each choice is selfish, and is putting personal desire above the marriage relationship. 



> Porn doesn't effect the spouse, unless its use is depriving her of what she would otherwise get.


Says the one using the porn. 



> I don't think the bdsm that she doesn't want qualifies as something she would otherwise get.
> 
> If its a turn off, so be it, find someone else. Not everyone is into my tats either, and I'm damn sure not gonna let someone tell me what I can put on my body.


No need for me to find someone else. I have the perfect match for me. So, obviously, you need a woman who is fine with porn use. 

Also, a tattoo isn't the same as porn. Not at all. A tattoo really only effects you. Porn effects her because it means your choosing porn over her each and every time you use it, regardless of the reason you give. 



> And it looks like you have a rockin' sex life. Do you think the average woman is considering a pole? My ex wife wouldn't strip if her life depended on it. She was experimental, but far too self conscious to actually do anything sexy... I didn't even get sexts. lol Definitely a "lights off" type of woman in spite of her great body. No no no... I had to learn to be able to flip a switch in my head without her. What you're describing is certainly more ideal, and I'd say out of the norm... and maybe a guy wouldn't care as much about porn given the circumstances.


Porn doesn't build the kind of trust I have with my husband, though. It implies, "You're not satisfying me in such and such a way, so I'm going to go find it where I can. Even if this fantasy is utterly unrealistic, I'm gonna go find it somehow, regardless of how you feel." If my husband were to use porn, I can guarantee all of the trust we've built over the last few years would be toppled. Destroyed. It's because of the sexual exclusivity that I'm willing and eager to do so much for him. 



> I wonder how all of this works for the guy whose wife has become overweight but he's still attracted to skinny women? Heck, even if he himself is overweight and could never actually get that woman he's actually attracted to. Is sex purely a physical or emotional sensation to them? I personally like being turned on visually... and I think any guy who doesn't is probably lying.


Which is why I believe in taking care of oneself, because attraction really is so important in marriage. But attraction, while it includes the physical, covers much more. 



> So what do we do when we're no longer attracted to our aging overweight bodies? Ignore the visual desire?


Grow up would be a good start. lol. Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but come on. If a 60 something year old man is still watching porn, he has officially crossed the creep boundary. Not to mention how shallow that is. 

There are a lot of older women on this forum who are still hot for their husbands and eager to please them and be pleased by them. I admire them so, so much. They deserve to have loving husbands who would choose them above porn, no matter how much they've aged.


----------



## Created2Write

Maricha75 said:


> Go for it. As Annie said, save the best for your spouse... or in some cases, save them all for your spouse. But then, we'll get the "It's my body!" argument again, huh?


I tried a vibrator once...it _hurt_ my clitoris. Even on the lowest setting. I eventually threw it away. My husband was kind of sad because he was never able to use it with me, but I told him it hurt and he understood. I also told him that, even if it hadn't hurt, it wouldn't have compared to him giving me oral. No way. He grinned really big. 

So yeah, get rid of the vibrators. Could care less. My husband is better than any dildo on earth, so I could care less there too. And romance novels. They're lame, unrealistic and the sex scenes are all the same.


----------



## Created2Write

AnnieAsh said:


> LOL! The way some of the men talk here, you'd think 90% of women are anti-sex shrews but it seems like there are a lot of women here who ENJOY sex. Not only ENJOY it, REVEL in it. Go Vagina Power!
> 
> I don't think C2W, Tiggy et al are outliers. We are average redblooded women who like sex.


I giggled at vagina power. 

Honestly, since being pregnant I've regained the sex drive I had the first year of our marriage. (And my drive since then has been pretty high. Especially since being off of BC. Never going on that stuff again!) One little kiss from my husband and I am like, flinging my clothes off. My husband's like, "I just got home and I stink! You feeling okay?"


----------



## Maricha75

ET1SSJonota said:


> Your views and stance on sex in marriage are NOT the norm. Not even close. Especially after a few kids and a decade together. Speaking of, how long have you been together?


Maybe not the norm, but certainly not alone... I am in agreement with her, and I have three kids, 12, 6, & almost 5... and we will celebrate 13 years married in just a couple weeks. Even longer marriage request? My parents. They have been married 39 years, 3 kids, 6 grandkids. So, yes, no matter how much of a minority we may be, we do exist.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> I giggled at vagina power.
> 
> Honestly, since being pregnant I've regained the sex drive I had the first year of our marriage. (And my drive since then has been pretty high. Especially since being off of BC. Never going on that stuff again!) One little kiss from my husband and I am like, flinging my clothes off. My husband's like, "I just got home and I stink! You feeling okay?"


lol yep now off BC too and NEVER going back on it again (didn't realize the impact it had on my sex drive).
During my 2nd trimester my sex drive went absolutely mental.


----------



## Created2Write

ET1SSJonota said:


> Your views and stance on sex in marriage are NOT the norm. Not even close. Especially after a few kids and a decade together. Speaking of, how long have you been together?


Inevitably this is always asked.  

Four years this summer, and we're expecting our first. But, just because some people choose to put their own selfish desires above their spouses needs, doesn't mean everyone does. I have absolutely no intention of letting my fantastic sex life with my husband dwindle. I love sex. Couldn't live without his body pressed against mine. 

Besides, judging by FaithfulWife's testimony, and my mother's, I'm really not as much of a rarity as some say I am. I like to think that my husband and I stand a very good chance of having this same sexual relationship ten years down the road, and I certainly intend to do my best to ensure that happens. 

We're moving into a three bedroom house this summer...I'm thinking as an anniversary present, I should buy a pole and maybe some videos on how to pole dance...Course, I don't know how sexy a six month pregnant woman pole dancing would be...


----------



## Thundarr

You guys are hard core on both sides of this issue. I can't imagine leaving my wife because she doesn't want me to watch porn. I can't imagine her leaving me if she found some porn site in my browser history either (assuming it's legal stuff).

Fortunately I don't have to watch it and she wouldn't flip out if I did but for argument's sake I'll play the what if game. What if she flat out said she hates it yet I really liked it. Well I'd try very hard to not watch it ever. She's the mother of my children and the person I plan to grow old with so it's a no brainer. What if I slipped up and she found out. Well If I were doing my best and she made it into a show stopper then that would be pretty sad. Hopefully I'm the guy she plans to grow old with so surely it wouldn't be so easy to make into a show stopper.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Created2Write said:


> I tried a vibrator once...it _hurt_ my clitoris. Even on the lowest setting. I eventually threw it away. My husband was kind of sad because he was never able to use it with me, but I told him it hurt and he understood. I also told him that, even if it hadn't hurt, it wouldn't have compared to him giving me oral. No way. He grinned really big.
> 
> So yeah, get rid of the vibrators. Could care less. My husband is better than any dildo on earth, so I could care less there too. And romance novels. They're lame, unrealistic and the sex scenes are all the same.


**gah***... I know you're pumping up your husband... but.. ouch..

She used to ask... maybe even beg... for oral frequently. Now I usually get pushed away from down there.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Created2Write said:


> Inevitably this is always asked.
> 
> Four years this summer, and we're expecting our first. But, just because some people choose to put their own selfish desires above their spouses needs, doesn't mean everyone does. I have absolutely no intention of letting my fantastic sex life with my husband dwindle. I love sex. Couldn't live without his body pressed against mine.
> 
> Besides, judging by FaithfulWife's testimony, and my mother's, I'm really not as much of a rarity as some say I am. I like to think that my husband and I stand a very good chance of having this same sexual relationship ten years down the road, and I certainly intend to do my best to ensure that happens.
> 
> We're moving into a three bedroom house this summer...I'm thinking as an anniversary present, I should buy a pole and maybe some videos on how to pole dance...Course, I don't know how sexy a six month pregnant woman pole dancing would be...


Plenty. There's nothing to describe the desire felt for a woman carrying your child. You may feel gross... but to him you will be amazing!


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> You guys are hard core on both sides of this issue. I can't imagine leaving my wife because she doesn't want me to watch porn. I can't imagine her leaving me if she found some porn site in my browser history either (assuming it's legal stuff).
> 
> Fortunately I don't have to watch it and she wouldn't flip out if I did but for argument's sake I'll play the what if game. What if she flat out said she hates it yet I really liked it. Well I'd try very hard to not watch it ever. She's the mother of my children and the person I plan to grow old with so it's a no brainer. What if I slipped up and she found out. Well If I were doing my best and she made it into a show stopper then that would be pretty sad. * Hopefully I'm the guy she plans to grow old with so surely it wouldn't be so easy to make into a show stopper.*


Absolutely. I would only leave my husband if he decided that my feelings weren't more important than his porn use and used the "it's my body" argument. At that point, he's essentially saying that the marriage isn't more important than his independence. Fine by me. He wants independence, he can have it as a single man. 

If he was trying not to watch it and slipped up once in a while, whole different story. No one is perfect. I slip up to. But if I intentionally disregarded his feelings and did things I knew made him feel disrespected, I would expect a divorce.


----------



## Faithful Wife

When your sex life rocks better than any porn you can watch, you will find that porn isn't so important as you thought it was.

And yet, if what you see in porn is better than any sex you've ever had, this should be your clue to get with REALITY and stop holding yourself back. Stop pummeling your poor body into submission to images on the screen and figure out what you have to do to actually HAVE great sex instead of just watching it.

If that means divorce because your wife doesn't want the same thing as you do sex-wise, then do it and stop blaming her for holding YOU back.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> When your sex life rocks better than any porn you can watch, you will find that porn isn't so important as you thought it was.
> 
> And yet, if what you see in porn is better than any sex you've ever had, this should be your clue to get with REALITY and stop holding yourself back. Stop pummeling your poor body into submission to images on the screen and figure out what you have to do to actually HAVE great sex instead of just watching it.
> 
> If that means divorce because your wife doesn't want the same thing as you do sex-wise, then do it and stop blaming her for holding YOU back.


I definitely agree.


----------



## Created2Write

AnnieAsh said:


> C2W, I looked into a stripper pole for my bedroom but it would cost a bunch of money because of the vaulted ceilings! I was super disappointed!
> 
> I don't watch the videos I make either. Too embarrassing to see myself in the throes.


Well, even when we're filming I'm not actively thinking about how it'll look or sound later. Once I'm off of my euphoric cloud of sexual bliss, I see things differently. My husband is turned on and ready to go again, and I'm hiding under the covers, red as a strawberry, giggling from embarrassment..."Did I really sound like that?"

He never knows what I'm talking about.


----------



## Grayson

Created2Write said:


> Absolutely. I would only leave my husband if he decided that my feelings weren't more important than his porn use and used the "it's my body" argument. At that point, he's essentially saying that the marriage isn't more important than his independence. Fine by me. He wants independence, he can have it as a single man.


Here's the thing, though. So many assume that a man (or, for that matter, a woman) who enjoys porn does so because - to use your words - "porn use is more important than his/her spouse's feelings." I propose that this is not the case for the vast majority of porn viewers. For that majority, both partners have a realistic and healthy view of what it is.

Speaking of, let me throw this out there: In this conversation, viewing porn is being discussed as going hand-in-hand with masturbation. I've even been speaking from that assumption. True story...I've been known to put on some porn (hardcore or softcore) without laying a finger on myself (or anyone else...or anyone else laying a finger on me). Sometimes even with the sound down and music up. Why? Because I'm doing something else (working or gaming on the computer, reading, working on some other project, etc) and, when I look up, it's nice to see some attractive naked bodies on screen.



> If he was trying not to watch it and slipped up once in a while, whole different story. No one is perfect. I slip up to. But if I intentionally disregarded his feelings and did things I knew made him feel disrespected, I would expect a divorce.


No everyone sees the viewing of porn as disrespect for their spouse, though. I don't say that this is universally true or even should be...no more than your own scenario is or should be universal. It's all about the boundaries and views each couple has. And, when those views aren't the same, some level of compromise is called for, rather than a unilateral decision by one partner or the other that it's their way or the highway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thundarr

Created2Write said:


> Four years this summer, and we're expecting our first. But, just because some people choose to put their own selfish desires above their spouses needs, doesn't mean everyone does. I have absolutely no intention of letting my fantastic sex life with my husband dwindle. I love sex. Couldn't live without his body pressed against mine.
> 
> Besides, judging by FaithfulWife's testimony, and my mother's, I'm really not as much of a rarity as some say I am. I like to think that my husband and I stand a very good chance of having this same sexual relationship ten years down the road, and I certainly intend to do my best to ensure that happens.
> 
> We're moving into a three bedroom house this summer...I'm thinking as an anniversary present, I should buy a pole and maybe some videos on how to pole dance...Course, I don't know how sexy a six month pregnant woman pole dancing would be...


:toast: congratulations on the new addition Created2Write.


----------



## always_alone

Grayson said:


> Maybe it's a generational thing...as younger generations become more aware of it, they find that they're no opposed to the concept...they just don't see specific content that appeals to them. So, rather than turning away completely, they either make I known that they're an audience to be tapped or just make what they wan to see themselves.


I'm not really opposed to the concept either. Just the source and implementation (and the way it is often used/abused). I find the portrayal of women utterly repulsive in most porn that I've seen, even so-called women's porn -- which still perpetuates many of the same annoying stereotypes AND is boring to boot. For me, it's akin to the portrayal of women in horror flicks, where all they seem to be able to do is screech and fall down.

Granted, I'm no expert, as I really don't care to troll long enough to find something that maybe I might find appealing. 

And FWIW, I don't watch CSI either, for much the same reason. I find it just too stupidly unrealistic and I can't suspend that much disbelief.

Edited to add: Although one thing that makes CSI more palatable is that the actors at least are well paid, and nowhere near as exploited.


----------



## Created2Write

ET1SSJonota said:


> **gah***... I know you're pumping up your husband... but.. ouch..
> 
> She used to ask... maybe even beg... for oral frequently. Now I usually get pushed away from down there.


I'm sorry this is the case.  And I hope my statements haven't made it worse. It wasn't my intent at all. Just know that there are women who want to not only be pleased by their husbands, but also want to please them too. I hope you find one of those. 

My only point, in a nutshell, is that I don't believe that porn is necessary for a healthy marriage or sex life.


----------



## Created2Write

ET1SSJonota said:


> Plenty. There's nothing to describe the desire felt for a woman carrying your child. You may feel gross... but to him you will be amazing!


Thank you.  That's very sweet. He actually seems to be more attracted to me now that I'm pregnant than before, which I kind of thought was impossible...cause he was already very attracted to me. lol. Helps me get over the fact that I'm having to buy clothes in sizes I've never worn in my life.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Created2Write said:


> I'm sorry this is the case.  And I hope my statements haven't made it worse. It wasn't my intent at all. Just know that there are women who want to not only be pleased by their husbands, but also want to please them too. I hope you find one of those.
> 
> *My only point, in a nutshell, is that I don't believe that porn is necessary for a healthy marriage or sex life.*


It hurts all the time... but I probably complain too much. She "takes care of me", I just don't think her heart's in it, so to speak.

I agree entirely with the bolded quote. However, I don't think bringing it into the marriage or watching it solo will always be a bad thing.


----------



## Grayson

always_alone said:


> I'm not really opposed to the concept either. Just the implementation (and sometimes the way it is used/abused). I find the portrayal of women utterly repulsive in most porn that I've seen, even so-called women's porn -- which still perpetuates many of the same annoying stereotypes AND is boring to boot. For me, it's akin to the portrayal of women in horror flicks, where all they seem to be able to do is screech and fall down.


Porn needs a Joss Whedon...someone to take the conventional views of the female characters and turn them on their head to produce awesome stuff. If it follows the Whedon pattern, though, the work will be acclaimed while remaining at cult status for years until the auteur brings his talents to a big mainstream production. ;-)



> Granted, I'm no expert, as I really don't care to troll long enough to find something that maybe I might find appealing.


That can certainly be daunting. And, with porn, the cover boxes and copy are even less useful to decide if something fits your tastes than with mainstream movies. (My wife won't select a video with images of impending or completed facials, for example, while I simply use the images on the covers to get a ballpark estimate of whether or not the people in the video are appealing to me.)



> And FWIW, I don't watch CSI either, for much the same reason. I find it just too stupidly unrealistic and I can't suspend that much disbelief.


That's fair. Not every show is for everyone. I enjoy the CSI "mother ship" well enough, but found Miami to grow overly cheesy while NY just never appealed to me. My point stands, though...fiction takes shortcuts to expedite the narrative being presented.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

We occasionally watch it together just for fun. But neither of us would freak out if the other one said "you know, lets not have this in our marriage at all anymore".

We do so many things that are kinkier than what we see in porn that we actually make it look vanilla. Thus, watching porn is for us, toning things down a bit.


----------



## Starstarfish

The comment about Josh Whedon as a porn auteur made me think about this:

Spoken Word by Ernest Cline

Open warning, there's swearing of the kind the forum here edits, so - probably don't listen to it without earphones at work.


----------



## Created2Write

Grayson said:


> Here's the thing, though. So many assume that a man (or, for that matter, a woman) who enjoys porn does so because - to use your words - "porn use is more important than his/her spouse's feelings." I propose that this is not the case for the vast majority of porn viewers. For that majority, both partners have a realistic and healthy view of what it is.


So you think that the vast majority of men and women who use porn are doing so with their spouses there, or at least with their approval?



> Speaking of, let me throw this out there: In this conversation, viewing porn is being discussed as going hand-in-hand with masturbation. I've even been speaking from that assumption. True story...I've been known to put on some porn (hardcore or softcore) without laying a finger on myself (or anyone else...or anyone else laying a finger on me). Sometimes even with the sound down and music up. Why? Because I'm doing something else (working or gaming on the computer, reading, working on some other project, etc) and, when I look up, it's nice to see some attractive naked bodies on screen.


Personally, I see no point to this whatsoever. Putting it on just so you can see random naked bodies? :scratchhead:



> No everyone sees the viewing of porn as disrespect for their spouse, though. I don't say that this is universally true or even should be...no more than your own scenario is or should be universal. It's all about the boundaries and views each couple has. And, when those views aren't the same, some level of compromise is called for, rather than a unilateral decision by one partner or the other that it's their way or the highway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally disagree. For some, porn is flat out unacceptable under any circumstance, and no one should have to compromise their boundaries when it means accepting something they aren't comfortable with. A man or woman sacrificing their desire to watch porn isn't going to effect them negatively in any way, unless they allow it to(and in such cases I would argue that addiction has already started). A man or woman sacrificing their boundaries in favor of porn when they really aren't comfortable with it at all absolutely can, and more than likely will, effect them, and their marriage, in a negative way. 

And if someone refuses to give up porn use for their spouse, I always question why. If you don't need it, then it isn't important, so it shouldn't be difficult to give up. And if it isn't difficult to give up, but you still refuse to do so, it means one of two things: 1) you need it more than you're willing to admit, or 2) you care more about your personal desires than the state of your marriage. 

Sorry. For me it IS that cut and dry when one spouse isn't comfortable with porn and the other refuses to give it up.


----------



## Created2Write

Thundarr said:


> :toast: congratulations on the new addition Created2Write.


Thanks!!  Should be popping out some time around October/November. We'll find out next Monday when we have our first OBGYN appointment.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Congrats C2W! Don't forget to take the belly pictures! My girls love looking at pictures from my pregnancies.


----------



## ocotillo

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Tangentially, I do wonder sometimes as we age, whether our sexual tastes age with us. When I'm 60 is a pic of my 50 year old wife going to turn me on still? Or will I still crave the body of a 20-something. Given that "teen" porn is probably the largest category by video count, I'm inclined to think its the latter.


Well I'm 59. It's not that you ever loose your appreciation for the female form. You don't. But after you've raised a few children and watched them mature into their thirties, a twenty-something is going to be 'Childzoned' regardless of how pleasant the exterior might be. 

And it won't be simply an act of high mindedness and moral rectitude on your part either. (No offense to twenty-somethings.)

Sixty is really not that old anymore for people who've taken care of themselves Christie Brinkley is 59. Pictures of her are common fair on reddit and imgur and even the twenty-somethings don't seem to mind. 

As far as getting older, yeah, I'm not looking forward to that. The aging process greatly accelerates at around 60 for most people.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Here is what I want to know.

From what I understand from the male posters here is that they are entitled to watch pornography. Their wives cannot and should not control them. Additionally, porn is no big deal. Every man watches it. (Please don't make me use the old chestnut about everyone jumping off a bridge and would you jump too.) My question to them is why hold on so vigorously to something that is evidently so minor to you?

If you watching creates greater UNHAPPINESS in your wife than it creates HAPPINESS in YOU, why continue? Things that are supposedly no biggie should be easy to give up, yes?

Did I make any sense just then? That's been rattling around in my head all day.


----------



## Grayson

Created2Write said:


> So you think that the vast majority of men and women who use porn are doing so with their spouses there, or at least with their approval?


In a word, yes.

In more words, we're not going to hear about situations like that in a forum like TAM due to the forum's nature and focus. Further, as so many matters of sex are kept private, so too is this:

"Yes, Betty. Fred and I have great sex, but if I'm just not in the mood, he spanks the brontosaurus to porn."
"I know what you mean, Wilma. Barney and I have the same deal."



> Personally, I see no point to this whatsoever. Putting it on just so you can see random naked bodies? :scratchhead:


Yep. The naked human body is beautiful to see. Many people frequently turn on the TV or a movie as "white noise" in the background. I sometimes choose for that "white noise" to provide me glimpses of naked bodies.

And, to answer the inevitable question: no, it doesn't lessen my desire for my wife in the least.



> I totally disagree. For some, porn is flat out unacceptable under any circumstance,


...and I never said otherwise, now, did I?



> and no one should have to compromise their boundaries when it means accepting something they aren't comfortable with.


Nor did I suggest they should.



> A man or woman sacrificing their desire to watch porn isn't going to effect them negatively in any way, unless they allow it to(and in such cases I would argue that addiction has already started).


Arguing another point that I didn't make.



> A man or woman sacrificing their boundaries in favor of porn when they really aren't comfortable with it at all absolutely can, and more than likely will, effect them, and their marriage, in a negative way.


And, here again.

C'mon, C2W...you're smarter than this. You're better than this. I understand that you admittedly dove into the threa already in progress, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that my posts since you did join the thread would be recalled to keep this one in context. I guess not. I'll take the fall for that...maybe I didn't communicate clearly. So, I'll expand a bit.

In relationships, we all bring different things to the table. Some interests, our partner isn't going to share. Some of those, we can live with. Some we barely tolerate, and some we just won't accept. Those are all subjects that should be discussed to determine which category those interest fall in. In all but that last category, compromise is in play. And, that's not to say that those classifications are locked in forever. ("Honey, I really thought I could deal with the collection of gnome statues, but...man, they really freak me out."). If, however, one partner takes it upon him- or herself to make a unilateral decision, I think that sort of puts the lie to the partner part of the partnership that is formed in a long term relationship.



> And if someone refuses to give up porn use for their spouse, I always question why. If you don't need it, then it isn't important, so it shouldn't be difficult to give up. And if it isn't difficult to give up, but you still refuse to do so, it means one of two things: 1) you need it more than you're willing to admit, or 2) you care more about your personal desires than the state of your marriage.


I told this story before you joined the thread, so I'll ask the others to indulge me as I repeat it. I've been a comics can and collector for most of my 42 years. When my wife and I got engaged, my MIL asked her, "When you two get married, you're going to make him stop with the comics, right?" My wife looked at her, dumbfounded. "No. It's part of who he is." She recognized that, my choices of entertainment media and genre all baked together as the recipe to form that unique thing called me. (BTW...yes, she was aware I view porn from our beginnings.) to my MIL, comics would have been just as big a dealbreaker as porn is to some: a childish distraction drawing attention, time and money away from the relationship. To my wife, it was just another entertainment choice that was part of my life.

So, the "refusal" that you mention? I don't think it exists in a vacuum. If it's something that has been in your life for a long time, I think the other partner owes it to both of them to determine whether or not compromise can be reached, and if it can, I think it should. I think that's always the best option as opposed to one trying to change the other.



> Sorry. For me it IS that cut and dry when one spouse isn't comfortable with porn and the other refuses to give it up.


To sum up, I don't think it IS that cut and dried, because there are different degrees of "discomfort." To provide another example, my wife likes country music. I don't. At all.

Can. Not. STAND. It.

Twangy music about beer drinkin', bar fightin', cheatin', ********? Don't see any redeeming qualities whatsoever. By your measure, since I am uncomfortable with country music, I should demand that she stop listening to it, and should she refuse, divorce. She doesn't "need" it.

Afte all, it IS that cut and dried when one spouse is not comfortable with an entertainment choice by the other, right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Here is what I want to know.
> 
> From what I understand from the male posters here is that they are entitled to watch pornography. Their wives cannot and should not control them. Additionally, porn is no big deal. Every man watches it. (Please don't make me use the old chestnut about everyone jumping off a bridge and would you jump too.) My question to them is why hold on so vigorously to something that is evidently so minor to you?
> 
> If you watching creates greater UNHAPPINESS in your wife than it creates HAPPINESS in YOU, why continue? Things that are supposedly no biggie should be easy to give up, yes?
> 
> Did I make any sense just then? That's been rattling around in my head all day.


Your question does make sense, but I think it makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily givens. But, I'll play along.

All along, I've been saying that, if ANY entertainment choice is causing true problems with the relationship, then some form of action needs to be taken, whether it be a compromise Or letting the other partner know its a dealbreaker. It's not that it CAN'T be given up...it's that a compelling reason for doing so must be given. "I don't like it." Wouldn't be a compelling reason to me. "I have issues X, Y and Z with it." would give me pause, and lead me to sit down with you and say, "I understand X, Y, and Z. I derive A, B and C from it." and see what resolution is most beneficial to the relationship. "It's a dealbreaker because of (insert reason here)." is a red flag, and likely to be a compelling reason for me, as it's at dealbreaker status with you. And, BTW, I'd apply that to ANY pastime, not just porn. And I'd expect that process to work both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Grayson said:


> Your question does make sense, but I think it makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily givens. But, I'll play along.
> 
> All along, I've been saying that, if ANY entertainment choice is causing true problems with the relationship, then some form of action needs to be taken, whether it be a compromise Or letting the other partner know its a dealbreaker. It's not that it CAN'T be given up...it's that a compelling reason for doing so must be given. "I don't like it." Wouldn't be a compelling reason to me. "I have issues X, Y and Z with it." would give me pause, and lead me to sit down with you and say, "I understand X, Y, and Z. I derive A, B and C from it." and see what resolution is most beneficial to the relationship. "It's a dealbreaker because of (insert reason here)." is a red flag, and likely to be a compelling reason for me, as it's at dealbreaker status with you. *And, BTW, I'd apply that to ANY pastime, not just porn. And I'd expect that process to work both ways.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree: I actually agree with the entire post, but especially with this. I think what some of us on "this side" are having an issue with, in this discussion, is those who say "it's my body, I'll do what I want, when I want and you have no say in the matter." Now, this may not be true, but to me, this raises a red flag... one that indicates there may be an addiction which he (or even she) is unwilling to admit. And, because of this, they hold onto the porn (or anything else, as you pointed out, above) because of that. If my husband were to tell me he doesn't want me to watch certain shows... as an example, one I mentioned previously in this thread, Game of Thrones... because of the nudity and sexual content, that's a legitimate reason IMO. It's enough of a reason for me to stop watching, if he feels that way. 

We both used to play World of Warcraft. (This is an example of activity, not just sexual/porn) He quit before I did. But he made the argument that it was a hindrance to our marriage. He was correct, and we haven't played in nearly a year. I never asked him to quit. But because it was something HE was uncomfortable with, I quit when he asked me to. Same thing with soap operas early in our marriage. He actually sat and watched a few episodes of one with me... then he turned to me and asked "Why do you watch that smut? I'd rather you didn't." And I haven't since. Why? Because it was something important to him. And the same would apply if I were to request that he stop any activity. 

Neither of us ascribes to the thought "My body, my choice." When we took our vows, it was understood by both of us "two become one"... Meaning two people, one purpose. My physical body may be my own, but as his wife, he does have the right to request that I not do things that he views as detrimental to our marriage, and vice versa. That's JMO, though.


----------



## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> Here is what I want to know.
> 
> From what I understand from the male posters here is that they are entitled to watch pornography. Their wives cannot and should not control them. Additionally, porn is no big deal. Every man watches it. (Please don't make me use the old chestnut about everyone jumping off a bridge and would you jump too.) My question to them is why hold on so vigorously to something that is evidently so minor to you?
> 
> If you watching creates greater UNHAPPINESS in your wife than it creates HAPPINESS in YOU, why continue? Things that are supposedly no biggie should be easy to give up, yes?
> 
> Did I make any sense just then? That's been rattling around in my head all day.



Why should a man have to adjust his sexuality. I mean what's the next thing I have to give up to help my wife's greater unhappiness? Unless there is legitimate reasons like ED or diagnosed addiction I'm not giving it up. In my case it's not something that's hidden or that isn't known. Now if you want to trade porn for daily blow jobs I'd think about it.


----------



## Created2Write

Grayson said:


> In a word, yes.
> 
> In more words, we're not going to hear about situations like that in a forum like TAM due to the forum's nature and focus. Further, as so many matters of sex are kept private, so too is this:
> 
> "Yes, Betty. Fred and I have great sex, but if I'm just not in the mood, he spanks the brontosaurus to porn."
> "I know what you mean, Wilma. Barney and I have the same deal."
> 
> Yep. The naked human body is beautiful to see. Many people frequently turn on the TV or a movie as "white noise" in the background. I sometimes choose for that "white noise" to provide me glimpses of naked bodies.
> 
> And, to answer the inevitable question: no, it doesn't lessen my desire for my wife in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I never said otherwise, now, did I?
> 
> 
> 
> Nor did I suggest they should.
> 
> 
> 
> Arguing another point that I didn't make.
> 
> 
> 
> And, here again.
> 
> 
> 
> You said that if one spouse wants to do it and the other doesn't want them to, there should be a compromise and not one spouse unilaterally deciding what will or won't happen. That's what I was referring to. I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but "compromise" seemed pretty clear to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> C'mon, C2W...you're smarter than this. You're better than this.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Condescending much?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand that you admittedly dove into the threa already in progress, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt that my posts since you did join the thread would be recalled to keep this one in context. I guess not. I'll take the fall for that...maybe I didn't communicate clearly. So, I'll expand a bit.
> 
> In relationships, we all bring different things to the table. Some interests, our partner isn't going to share. Some of those, we can live with. Some we barely tolerate, and some we just won't accept. Those are all subjects that should be discussed to determine which category those interest fall in. In all but that last category, compromise is in play. And, that's not to say that those classifications are locked in forever. ("Honey, I really thought I could deal with the collection of gnome statues, but...man, they really freak me out."). If, however, one partner takes it upon him- or herself to make a unilateral decision, I think that sort of puts the lie to the partner part of the partnership that is formed in a long term relationship.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with this, and it's why my husband and I discussed porn before marriage, and it's why we discuss certain shows like The Tudors, to make sure the other is okay with watching them. He knows I love British history, so we agreed that as long as I didn't watch the explicit sex scenes, it was fine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told this story before you joined the thread, so I'll ask the others to indulge me as I repeat it. I've been a comics can and collector for most of my 42 years. When my wife and I got engaged, my MIL asked her, "When you two get married, you're going to make him stop with the comics, right?" My wife looked at her, dumbfounded. "No. It's part of who he is." She recognized that, my choices of entertainment media and genre all baked together as the recipe to form that unique thing called me. (BTW...yes, she was aware I view porn from our beginnings.) to my MIL, comics would have been just as big a dealbreaker as porn is to some: a childish distraction drawing attention, time and money away from the relationship. To my wife, it was just another entertainment choice that was part of my life.
> 
> So, the "refusal" that you mention? I don't think it exists in a vacuum. If it's something that has been in your life for a long time, I think the other partner owes it to both of them to determine whether or not compromise can be reached, and if it can, I think it should. I think that's always the best option as opposed to one trying to change the other.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> With anything else other than porn, I would agree with you. But porn isn't "apart of who someone else". I know I've said this a lot but, I don't buy that. Any more than masturbating is a part of me. It's not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To sum up, I don't think it IS that cut and dried, because there are different degrees of "discomfort." To provide another example, my wife likes country music. I don't. At all.
> 
> Can. Not. STAND. It.
> 
> Twangy music about beer drinkin', bar fightin', cheatin', ********? Don't see any redeeming qualities whatsoever. By your measure, since I am uncomfortable with country music, I should demand that she stop listening to it, and should she refuse, divorce. She doesn't "need" it.
> 
> Afte all, it IS that cut and dried when one spouse is not comfortable with an entertainment choice by the other, right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh please. Country music isn't going to effect your sex life, or the state of your marriage for that matter.  My husband likes the band Avenged Sevenfold. I can't stand them. It hasn't caused an issue for even a moment.
> 
> They are NOT the same thing.
Click to expand...


----------



## Maricha75

Kobo said:


> *Why should a man have to adjust his sexuality. I mean what's the next thing I have to give up to help my wife's greater unhappiness?* Unless there is legitimate reasons like ED or diagnosed addiction I'm not giving it up. In my case it's not something that's hidden or that isn't known. Now if you want to trade porn for daily blow jobs I'd think about it.


Why should a woman have to sacrifice her happiness so her husband can watch porn? See, goes both ways.

And we keep going round and round in a circle... those who hold fast to it, and those who see no good purpose for it.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> Your question does make sense, but I think it makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily givens. But, I'll play along.
> 
> All along, I've been saying that, if ANY entertainment choice is causing true problems with the relationship, then some form of action needs to be taken, whether it be a compromise Or letting the other partner know its a dealbreaker. It's not that it CAN'T be given up...it's that a compelling reason for doing so must be given. "I don't like it." Wouldn't be a compelling reason to me. "I have issues X, Y and Z with it." would give me pause, and lead me to sit down with you and say, "I understand X, Y, and Z. I derive A, B and C from it." and see what resolution is most beneficial to the relationship. "It's a dealbreaker because of (insert reason here)." is a red flag, and likely to be a compelling reason for me, as it's at dealbreaker status with you. And, BTW, I'd apply that to ANY pastime, not just porn. And I'd expect that process to work both ways.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Grayson, thanks for posting to me in this thread and being very kind! 

So a compelling reason is needed? I feel like I've given really compelling reasons. It hurts my heart. I don't understand how that's not enough? The unhappiness and pain of a spouse should be impetus enough? 



Kobo said:


> Why should a man have to adjust his sexuality. I mean what's the next thing I have to give up to help my wife's greater unhappiness? Unless there is legitimate reasons like ED or diagnosed addiction I'm not giving it up. In my case it's not something that's hidden or that isn't known. Now if you want to trade porn for daily blow jobs I'd think about it.


Why should I have to adjust my sexuality? I wanna get double teamed every night but i understand that isn't exactly conducive to a good marriage. And btw my husband gets more blowjobs than you could ever dream of. I've turned it into an art form. But if he came at me with THAT attitude he wouldn't so much as get my hot breath blowing across his junk as I told him to eff off.


----------



## Created2Write

AnnieAsh said:


> Grayson, thanks for posting to me in this thread and being very kind!
> 
> So a compelling reason is needed? I feel like I've given really compelling reasons. It hurts my heart. I don't understand how that's not enough? The unhappiness and pain of a spouse should be impetus enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Why should I have to adjust my sexuality? I wanna get double teamed every night but i understand that isn't exactly conducive to a good marriage. And btw my husband gets more blowjobs than you could ever dream of. I've turned it into an art form. But if he came at me with THAT attitude he wouldn't so much as get my hot breath blowing across his junk as I told him to eff off.


:allhail:


----------



## TiggyBlue

Maricha75 said:


> Why should a woman have to sacrifice her happiness so her husband can watch porn? See, goes both ways.
> 
> And we keep going round and round in a circle... those who hold fast to it, and those who see no good purpose for it.


Yep both sides as valid as the other.


----------



## sparkyjim

I cannot keep up with this thread. I have at least 15 pages to read just to catch up.

Anyway, the only response I have time for right now is just to say that I cannot agree at all with any of the posters who say that women have a problem with porn only because they are insecure. That's not really an argument at all - just blame shifting.

Would it be fair to ask any of those posters if perhaps they are cold and uncaring, possibly even robotic, because they do not care how their wife feels?

I guess I never realized that when you get married, or are in a relationship, that nothing changes. You still get to do whatever you want, whenever you want, and you don't have to concern yourself with how someone else might feel.:scratchhead:


----------



## sparkyjim

Kobo said:


> Why should a man have to adjust his sexuality. I mean what's the next thing I have to give up to help my wife's greater unhappiness? Unless there is legitimate reasons like ED or diagnosed addiction I'm not giving it up. In my case it's not something that's hidden or that isn't known. Now if you want to trade porn for daily blow jobs I'd think about it.



The truth is that you would have more sexual success if you gave all of your sexual energy to your SO.


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> I think what some of us on "this side" are having an issue with, in this discussion, is those who say "it's my body, I'll do what I want, when I want and you have no say in the matter." Now, this may not be true, but to me, this raises a red flag... one that indicates there may be an addiction which he (or even she) is unwilling to admit. And, because of this, they hold onto the porn (or anything else, as you pointed out, above) because of that. If my husband were to tell me he doesn't want me to watch certain shows... as an example, one I mentioned previously in this thread, Game of Thrones... because of the nudity and sexual content, that's a legitimate reason IMO. It's enough of a reason for me to stop watching, if he feels that way.
> 
> We both used to play World of Warcraft. (This is an example of activity, not just sexual/porn) He quit before I did. But he made the argument that it was a hindrance to our marriage. He was correct, and we haven't played in nearly a year. I never asked him to quit. But because it was something HE was uncomfortable with, I quit when he asked me to. Same thing with soap operas early in our marriage. He actually sat and watched a few episodes of one with me... then he turned to me and asked "Why do you watch that smut? I'd rather you didn't." And I haven't since. Why? Because it was something important to him. And the same would apply if I were to request that he stop any activity.
> 
> Neither of us ascribes to the thought "My body, my choice." When we took our vows, it was understood by both of us "two become one"... Meaning two people, one purpose. My physical body may be my own, but as his wife, he does have the right to request that I not do things that he views as detrimental to our marriage, and vice versa. That's JMO, though.



To be fair, I can understand their point, as well. If it is not detracting from the relationship (and determining THAT can be a whole different minefield discussion), I don't see the problem in one spouse viewing porn, playing WoW, watching GoT, "knocking a quick one out," etc.


----------



## JCD

Maricha75 said:


> Why should a woman have to sacrifice her happiness so her husband can watch porn? See, goes both ways.
> 
> And we keep going round and round in a circle... those who hold fast to it, and those who see no good purpose for it.


Here is the problem: Fevers are generally considered bad. But...do you have a 99 degree fever or you can run up to 105, which is generally considered fatal for a human being.

So...if a wife approached me about porn 'making her unhappy' well...lots of things make ME unhappy in our relationship too. Trash t.v. Being considered last in family plans. Suddenly being hit with 'she needs two dozen cup cakes tomorrow for snack. Can you do it?" which, of course translates into "or I'll buy them instead and be snippy about it". Flirting with other men. Infidelity. Lying to me.

Some of these are venal sins and as a married man, I am expected to 'suck it up' to a certain extent. Others are deal breakers.

So...exactly how unhappy is porn making X wife? All I know is it's somewhere beyond "Willing to whine about it' but not up to 'will divorce you over it'. 

Now, the natural tendency of women (generic) seems to be to treat anything which makes her unhappy as a code red development....which means that eventually the husband dismisses because EVERYTHING is a code red development (Crying wolf)

So, when the communication on this issue happens, it would help if the woman could justify her feelings (YES, JUSTIFY). Annie can righteously say "We have only had sex three times in the last two months, you never cuddle, kiss or hold me and you are threatening your livelihood with this stuff."

THERE. I can see a DIRECT ill effect. "It worries me"? "I don't like feeling any sense of competition or sexual pressure"?

If I'm not cruising Craigslist or harassing her for anal...it seems a bit petty. Is her unhappiness (vague feelings) stronger than my 'gain' (orgasms)? How do you measure that?

Obviously a wife will answer that her feelings should always be validated. Not sure I buy that though.


----------



## Maricha75

Grayson said:


> To be fair, I can understand their point, as well. If it is not detracting from the relationship (and determining THAT can be a whole different minefield discussion), I don't see the problem in one spouse viewing porn, playing WoW, watching GoT, "knocking a quick one out," etc.


And I thought that's what I said? In general, no, WoW is not a problem.. in moderation. GoT, no, not a problem either... if you don't like sex scenes, fast forward button was created for a reason. And porn...well, you and I will just have to agree to disagree there. I will say this, though... if BOTH spouses are fine with porn usage, cool, have at it. But my opinion is that if one has a problem with it, then the other needs to take the issue seriously, and not just respond with "It's my right to do whatever I want and you can't stop me!" That just makes the viewer sound like a petulant child, imo.


----------



## Grayson

Created2Write said:


> You said that if one spouse wants to do it and the other doesn't want them to, there should be a compromise and not one spouse unilaterally deciding what will or won't happen. That's what I was referring to. I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but "compromise" seemed pretty clear to me.


I'll have to refer to context again, so let's take a look at exactly what I said:

_No everyone sees the viewing of porn as disrespect for their spouse, though. I don't say that this is universally true or even should be...no more than your own scenario is or should be universal. It's all about the boundaries and views each couple has. And, when those views aren't the same, some level of compromise is called for, rather than a unilateral decision by one partner or the other that it's their way or the highway._ 

By definition, compromise involves coming to a meeting of the minds between two parties. Ideally, it comes in the form of finding a middle ground. In some cases, it comes in the form of one party giving up their goal to accommodate the other party. The important part, though, is that meeting of the minds...coming to the outcome by mutual agreement, not one party making a decision for both. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that in this specific post. I worked from the assumption that, coupled with my repeated statements that if an activity is truly damaging the relationship, that activity needs to be addressed and possibly done away with, such a possible outcome was understood.




> Condescending much?


Sincerely not intended as such. Based on other posts of yours, and previous interactions we've had, I felt you were applying disingenuous tactics, in which only extremes of behavior exist, with nothing lying in between (the area where a bell curve would suggest the majority lies).



> I agree with this, and it's why my husband and I discussed porn before marriage, and it's why we discuss certain shows like The Tudors, to make sure the other is okay with watching them. He knows I love British history, so we agreed that as long as I didn't watch the explicit sex scenes, it was fine.


I'd say that sounds a bit odd to me, but it's consistent with what you've described as your mutual boundaries, and it works for you guys, so, as long as it does. I'd counter, though, that in the context of a drama (not having seen The Tudors specifically but using something like Game of Thrones or True Blood for a similar baseline) that important plot points might be contained in those scenes...or might be those scenes, period. And, perhaps it's the fan of stories in me, but if I prefer not to see a given story at all if I can't see all of it. I'm reminded of the B-plot of last week's Big Bang Theory, with Amy trying to condition Sheldon to accept a lack of closure.



> With anything else other than porn, I would agree with you. But porn isn't "apart of who someone else". I know I've said this a lot but, I don't buy that. Any more than masturbating is a part of me. It's not.


Sure it is. Everything we do informs who we are. (I foresee a particular response from the masses about this statement...we'll see if I'm right.  ) How is it that you can see all forms of entertainment creating a part of someone...but not this one? I honestly don't get the disconnect.




> Oh please. Country music isn't going to effect your sex life, or the state of your marriage for that matter.


You're right that it won't *necessarily *affect either. Nor will porn. But, let's adopt the mindset of those who assume that porn inevitably will because of what it depicts. By contrast, country music sends messages that getting plastered and cheating on your spouse is standard operating procedure. That random hookups with strangers are to be milked for comic effect (Underwood's "Last Name," for example). If we assume that those who view porn will inevitably use it as the yardstick for reality (as so many indicate), then we must assume that all forms of media entertainment can and will do the same, country music being no exception.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> Grayson, thanks for posting to me in this thread and being very kind!
> 
> So a compelling reason is needed? I feel like I've given really compelling reasons. It hurts my heart. I don't understand how that's not enough? The unhappiness and pain of a spouse should be impetus enough?


No problem.

Well, we've already established that yours is an extreme case. I don't think there's anyone in the thread who would dispute that you've given a compelling reason, and that your husband is being a...um...Richard.


----------



## Thundarr

Kobo said:


> Why should a man have to adjust his sexuality. I mean what's the next thing I have to give up to help my wife's greater unhappiness? Unless there is legitimate reasons like ED or diagnosed addiction I'm not giving it up. In my case it's not something that's hidden or that isn't known. Now if you want to trade porn for daily blow jobs I'd think about it.


Adjusting sexually means not sleeping with other women which is pretty important to marriage. Trying to make your partner happy and expecting her to make you happy is pretty important too. Now if you watch porn and she doesn't care then it works for both of you. Hopefully nothing changes because it sounds like no room for compromise.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> The truth is that you *might *have more sexual success if you gave all of your sexual energy to your SO.


Fixed that for you.

I could stop watching porn and masturbating today. I could put out my eyes so I never see another attractive woman.

It wouldn't affect her nosedive in hormones and drive since her hysterectomy, nor the discomfort she feels from the surgery leaving her...um...shallower. And, as a result of all of the above..."the mood" doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, back before her drive went into the tank, my viewing porn and/or masturbating didn't prevent us from going at it like rabbits whenever we liked.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> See? A perfect example of how porn skews a man's understanding of women's sexuality. A proper orgasm is not just seconds, but minutes and multiples. And she should be screaming loud enough to wake the neighbours, not just moaning a little "oh, oh, oh".
> 
> Just sayin'


Oh my god what bs lady. I've f-ed enough women to know exactly what a typical female orgasm is.

Minutes my a$$... scientifically speaking your orgasm lasts about the same length of time as a man's.

Take that trash to someone ignorant enough to buy it. If you think you're orgasm is lasting minutes, you haven't actually had a real one... which, come to think of it, isn't terribly uncommon among women either.

Just sayin'.


Also, google is your friend, guys ask this stupid sh*t all the time... http://blogs.menshealth.com/sex-professor/qa-how-long-do-orgasms-last/2010/03/30/

You post is a perfect example of "you don't know wtf your talking about."


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson said:


> Fixed that for you.


Fixed it or derailed it? Because of "might" so many good things never happened...


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> And I thought that's what I said? In general, no, WoW is not a problem.. in moderation. GoT, no, not a problem either... if you don't like sex scenes, fast forward button was created for a reason. And porn...well, you and I will just have to agree to disagree there. I will say this, though... if BOTH spouses are fine with porn usage, cool, have at it. *But my opinion is that if one has a problem with it, then the other needs to take the issue seriously, and not just respond with "It's my right to do whatever I want and you can't stop me!"* That just makes the viewer sound like a petulant child, imo.


I'd agree that it at least needs to be taken seriously enough to actually find out what, exactly, is meant by "having a problem with it," talking with one another, and determining what the best course of action for the relationship is. As JCD said, the nature and level of "problem" needs to be determined for that to happen.

Or, to illustrate, if I were your husband and simply told you, "I have a problem with you watching _How I Met Your Mother_," what would that mean? What would be the appropriate response from you?


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> Fixed it or derailed it? Because of "might" so many good things never happened...


Where can I buy the viewer into the alternate universe that proves this?


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson said:


> Where can I buy the viewer into the alternate universe that proves this?



I'm just saying that you are using "might" like an excuse for Tobo not to try.

There are no guarantees in life. I know that. You don't think I know that?

But one has to bring their A game. Don't use "might" as an excuse.

Do you think that you have been handed a bad deal that no one else has ever had to put up with? It's a big crazy f-ed up world, and too many never bring their best because of "might."


----------



## JCD

Grayson said:


> I'd agree that it at least needs to be taken seriously enough to actually find out what, exactly, is meant by "having a problem with it," talking with one another, and determining what the best course of action for the relationship is. As JCD said, the nature and level of "problem" needs to be determined for that to happen.
> 
> Or, to illustrate, if I were your husband and simply told you, "I have a problem with you watching _How I Met Your Mother_," what would that mean? What would be the appropriate response from you?


I think Maricha set the standard very clearly: If ONE spouse disapproves of something, then the other spouse needs to take it seriously.

Now...what exactly is me taking Maricha's feelings seriously? I guess that means cutting porn.

So...if I had a problem with her friend Becky whom she has known for YEARS because she gave me a bad vibe, she should OBVIOUSLY dump her like a gallon of month old milk.

Right? Am I getting this wrong, Maricha?


----------



## JCD

Ya know...sparky...you might get a bit farther with the guys if you didn't come across as a condescending prat who has "Da Trut" on a pair of stone tablets in front of him.

Because honestly? Your original post wasn't a question or the start of a debate: it was a rhetorical statement. Not sure about everyone else, but I sure picked up on it.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> It is past someone's bedtime...
> 
> 
> I believe that she meant that in porn women orgasm for extended periods of time, etc. You might want to edit your post...


Nope. She was pretty clear about what she meant.

In response to:



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> As somewhat of a seduction artist myself, I have to say that if I have a choice between giving a woman an orgasm - something measured in seconds - versus making her in tears laughing over the course of two hours... I'm going to go with the laughing.


She replied....



always_alone said:


> See? A perfect example of how porn skews a man's understanding of women's sexuality. A proper orgasm is not just seconds, but minutes and multiples. And she should be screaming loud enough to wake the neighbours, not just moaning a little "oh, oh, oh".
> 
> Just sayin'


When I suggested that there might be differing views on what men consider an "orgasm" because of our personal experience with equating ejaculation with orgasm, she clarified with...



always_alone said:


> No, no. It is not just a matter of perspective or where you start counting. When I say minutes, I'm not referring to the full cycle. The orgasm peak can be sustained for 5-10 minutes (maybe more?) before the decline, and then built back up again.
> 
> And maybe porn isn't entirely to blame for lack of knowledge about this, but there's no doubt in my mind that porn does not do any justice whatsoever to women's sexuality. It's all about the man and what gets him off.


So, clearly, she was stating that a woman's orgasm perceived as being seconds as opposed to minutes was a skewed perception created by porn.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> I'm just saying that you are using "might" like an excuse for Tobo not to try.
> 
> There are no guarantees in life. I know that. You don't think I know that?
> 
> But one has to bring their A game. Don't use "might" as an excuse.
> 
> Do you think that you have been handed a bad deal that no one else has ever had to put up with? It's a big crazy f-ed up world, and too many never bring their best because of "might."


Who's using "might" as an excuse?

You made an absolute declarative statement...that 



sparkyjim said:


> The truth is that you *would *have more sexual success if you gave all of your sexual energy to your SO.


(emphasis mine)

Don't back down from that absolute statement now. Tell us how you know this truth and that it applies to everyone.


----------



## TiggyBlue

I thought she meant they last minutes when multiples happen, which is true (especially when it comes to tantric sex).


----------



## Grayson

JCD said:


> Ya know...sparky...you might get a bit farther with the guys if you didn't come across as a condescending prat who has "Da Trut" on a pair of stone tablets in front of him.
> 
> Because honestly? Your original post wasn't a question or the start of a debate: it was a rhetorical statement. Not sure about everyone else, but I sure picked up on it.


I sure did. I even called him out on the wording being loaded from the outset in my first reply (also the first reply to the thread).


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> As I have said time and again I don't have a problem with porn and use it myself,


I wasn't saying "YOU" in particular have any problem with porn. I wasn't making a statement about you in particular at all.



TiggyBlue said:


> also I said the action of watching porn is what she objects to (in her eye's because it's on a tv or computer does not make it any different to masturbating in front of someone else) and not once did I say she tries to control or worries about what he fantasizes about.
> 
> You see fantasizing and porn in the same ballpark some don't.


No problem. She's wrong. 

Comparing porn to masturbating in front of someone else is dramatically different. No one is actually present with the person viewing porn. Since there's no "being seen by someone else", that leaves only what is being seen by the porn user himself - a fantasy no different than the one he imagines in his head. If She's not worried about control or what he's fantasizing about, then the woman on screen ought to be no different than the woman in his mind's eye.

Porn is fantasy without imagination. It serves the exact same purpose as what he visualizes in his mind without it. If you really want to get down to it, what's in his mind is even more personal. Its his imagined self with the hot images and memories of women he's collected in real life. Porn is just other people... some random guy doing some random girl.



TiggyBlue said:


> As a full grown adult he is entitled to watch porn if he wishes , but if he does he then can't complain she isn't as attracted to him as she once was (he was definitely forewarned). She is as much in control of what kind of man attracts her as he is control about what he fantasizes about.


There are no complaints here. If all my sexual needs aren't being met and she's too insecure to be comfortable with porn to make up the difference... tough. If she's less attracted to me as a result, get to steppin'. If she were meeting all of my sexual desires, I wouldn't want porn now would I?

I've seen nothing in this thread to convince me anti-porn motivations are anything other than insecurity and the desire for sexual control.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Again, my case is probably more common than any want to admit. I find the absolute REFUSAL to relinquish a habit that hurts a spouse so confounding. 

I'd apologize for bring my own situation front and center here, but...I'm not. It's easy to argue over abstract ideas but unfortunately I am living it. If my husband came here, he'd be advised to drop the controlling *insert slur of choice*. Promptly followed by posts about how insecure I am. That upsets me so much. *sigh* 

Thanks everyone.


----------



## Grayson

TiggyBlue said:


> I thought she meant they last minutes when multiples happen, which is true (especially when it comes to tantric sex).


Nope:



> Originally Posted by *always_alone*
> No, no. It is not just a matter of perspective or where you start counting. When I say minutes, *I'm not referring to the full cycle. The orgasm peak can be sustained for 5-10 minutes (maybe more?) before the decline, and then built back up again.*


----------



## sparkyjim

JCD said:


> Ya know...sparky...you might get a bit farther with the guys if you didn't come across as a condescending prat who has "Da Trut" on a pair of stone tablets in front of him.
> 
> Because honestly? Your original post wasn't a question or the start of a debate: it was a rhetorical statement. Not sure about everyone else, but I sure picked up on it.



Doesn't almost everyone who posts here present what they think is Da trut?

I used to think one way about porn and now I think differently.

But my original question was posed in response to someone who posted about a wife wanting to watch porn with her husband. His take was that she was interfering in his porn use by wanting to be involved. His take was that she was ruining his alone time.

I wanted to know if men think they should be entitled to watch porn even if their wife didn't want him to.

As to rhetorical....? I just asked for opinions originally. It morphed into a larger debate, as it probably should have, because it is a hot button topic. I haven't really been able to keep up with it all.


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson said:


> Nope:



You are right Grayson - I went back and found it also.

I think she might be referring to Tantric sex? I have a book about it. Interesting, but it seems like a lot of work, not that the trying wouldn't be fun...


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I wasn't saying "YOU" in particular have any problem with porn. I wasn't making a statement about you in particular at all.
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. She's wrong.


In your opinion, which is why she is a relationship who shares the same beliefs as her.




> There are no complaints here. If all my sexual needs aren't being met and she's too insecure to be comfortable with porn to make up the difference... tough. If she's less attracted to me as a result, get to steppin'. If she were meeting all of my sexual desires, I wouldn't want porn now would I?


Ah but that's the thing, many do make sure there partner's needs are met (porn or not). 




> I've seen nothing in this thread to convince me anti-porn motivations are anything other than insecurity and the desire for sexual control.


I don't think anyone is trying to convince you of anything, just talking about the dynamics of their relationships and what works for them.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls...the more you insist that a good married sex life such as Created's is "not the norm", the more I just feel sad for you. You aren't reading around enough if you STILL think "most" women are like your ex-wife.
> 
> Every single one of my friends has no problem with a strip pole in their home and in fact many of them also have no problem with porn.
> 
> Are you still reading old message boards with stories from the 80's or something?
> 
> Time to move into the new world, dear Dvls! The one where women actually want sex, enjoy sex, and have no problems with sex!


You can repeat that theme as much as you want. Do you seriously think I don't know that women want sex when I kept a number on call just because I knew they want my **** with no strings attached?? Wanna rethink that one finally?

As you're so fond of telling me, you are relating your experience... which is no more valuable than mine my dear. Ah yes, women are out buying stripper poles in droves. That explains all the posts here from men who wish their wives were more sexually adventurous... or -gasp- *sexual at all* with them. Oh wait... many have no problem with porn. Maybe its this thread that's in the 80s hmmm?

Yeah, Created's sex life is the norm. :rofl: Ask her again in 3 years.


----------



## sparkyjim

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she were meeting all of my sexual desires, I wouldn't want porn now would I?



Why is this continually presented as a valid argument? It just isn't valid.

And again, because you are one of the posters who keeps bringing it up - a woman who doesn't want her man to watch porn is not wrong "because she is insecure..." Again, not a valid argument.

As I said before, maybe you are in the wrong because you do not care that her self esteem is being affected. That is another way to look at it.


----------



## TiggyBlue

sparkyjim said:


> You are right Grayson - I went back and found it also.
> 
> I think she might be referring to Tantric sex? I have a book about it. Interesting, but it seems like a lot of work, not that the trying wouldn't be fun...


Tantric is AMAZING :smthumbup:


----------



## JCD

TiggyBlue said:


> Tantric is AMAZING :smthumbup:


Just a remark. Your avatar always makes me smile. My compliments.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> I think she might be referring to Tantric sex? I have a book about it. Interesting, but it seems like a lot of work, not that the trying wouldn't be fun...


Time to throw another "you MUST have learned about that from porn" idea out the window. Let's make it fun and put it in the form of a quiz:

Grayson first learned of Tantric sex from--

A: Porn
B: Stories about Sting & wife Trudie Styler practicing it
C: A series of science-fiction super-hero stories edited by George R.R. Martin
D: Message boards/chat rooms

I'm gonna wait to provide the answer. I'm genuinely curious to see what people guess.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

sparkyjim said:


> Why is this continually presented as a valid argument? It just isn't valid.
> 
> And again, because you are one of the posters who keeps bringing it up - a woman who doesn't want her man to watch porn is not wrong "because she is insecure..." Again, not a valid argument.
> 
> As I said before, maybe you are in the wrong because you do not care that her self esteem is being affected. That is another way to look at it.


Your saying so, doesn't make it so. I still see nothing but insecurity and control here.

If her self-esteem is affected by the fact that female imagery turns me on, I don't want her in the first place. I want someone with higher self-esteem.

That's how I look at it, and that's what I've said in this thread. I couldn't care less that she has the hots for Chris Hemsworth and imagines getting boned by Thor on a mountain top to the backdrop of lightning bolts. Its fantasy.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Grayson said:


> Time to throw another "you MUST have learned about that from porn" idea out the window. Let's make it fun and put it in the form of a quiz:
> 
> Grayson first learned of Tantric sex from--
> 
> A: Porn
> B: Stories about Sting & wife Trudie Styler practicing it
> C: A series of science-fiction super-hero stories edited by George R.R. Martin
> D: Message boards/chat rooms
> 
> I'm gonna wait to provide the answer. I'm genuinely curious to see what people guess.


B? (i'm pretty sure that's where I heard it from first lol).


----------



## JCD

sparkyjim said:


> I wanted to know if men think they should be entitled to watch porn even if their wife didn't want him to.


Here's the deal: Wives (delightful creatures all) have any NUMBER of things they don't want me (generic) to do.

They don't want me to be attracted to anyone else. Note the word WANT. See Created2Write (who is a friend, btw) as an HONEST exhibit of this. Realistic? No. WANT!

They don't want me to spend my money on 'frivilous' (their definition) items.

They don't want me to spend time on friends whom they consider 'bad influences' i.e. cause me to question my wife.

They don't want me to indulge in dangerous activities (depending on how much life insurance I buy, the opposite might be true...)

So...WANT is a rather slippery term. 

Let's turn that around. I don't want my wife to cut her hair. EVER! I like it long and I'd just as soon be able to wind around her feet in the coffin to keep her toes warm.

Is that outrageous? Is it controlling? It makes her attractive and I WANT to be attracted to her. Her cutting her hair will HARM my attractedness to her, thus harming our relationship.

So...by your definition, she should not be allowed to cut her hair.

Anyone disagree with that?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> No, no. It is not just a matter of perspective or where you start counting. When I say minutes, I'm not referring to the full cycle. The orgasm peak can be sustained for 5-10 minutes (maybe more?) before the decline, and then built back up again.
> 
> And maybe porn isn't entirely to blame for lack of knowledge about this, but there's no doubt in my mind that porn does not do any justice whatsoever to women's sexuality. It's all about the man and what gets him off.


This is patently false and 10 seconds on google will show it.

The only thing to blame for the lack of this knowledge, is that it is not true.

Ante up guys... if your woman isn't having 10 minute orgasms, you're slacking. Gtfo


----------



## sparkyjim

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I've seen nothing in this thread to convince me anti-porn motivations are anything other than insecurity and the desire for sexual control.


I have said ( or alluded to ) this before. As a guy, I like porn. It is interesting to me. I used to watch it.

But, as a more experienced man, with more knowledge, more years under my belt, and more compassion for my SO I now feel that watching porn is not at all in my best interests. I no longer feel like I am entitled to porn because either the SO is low desire, or not kinky enough, or has fallen asleep, or is sick, or has broken up with me, or whatever reasons that have been presented here.

I don't think that I have read even one post in this thread that took the moral issue that porn was evil. And I don't think that any of the women who posted here were posting about "controlling" their man.

Some did post about their insecurity - but so what? They have a right to feel insecure if they feel insecure. It doesn't make them wrong... Dvls has a right to not feel compassion for his partner. He is entitled to that. But then his partner might want to say that she is entitled to have someone who cares about how she feels.

A lot of the women posters have been saying exactly that...they feel that they are entitled to have a partner who cares about them, who has compassion for how they feel, and who can be trusted to follow through on something if the two of them agree on it.


----------



## JCD

Grayson said:


> Time to throw another "you MUST have learned about that from porn" idea out the window. Let's make it fun and put it in the form of a quiz:
> 
> Grayson first learned of Tantric sex from--
> 
> A: Porn
> B: Stories about Sting & wife Trudie Styler practicing it
> C: A series of science-fiction super-hero stories edited by George R.R. Martin
> D: Message boards/chat rooms
> 
> I'm gonna wait to provide the answer. I'm genuinely curious to see what people guess.


You are too easy. C because you were so darned specific. And I read a couple of them too.


----------



## Grayson

JCD said:


> You are too easy. C because you were so darned specific. And I read a couple of them too.


Are you sure? I was pretty specific about Sting & Trudie, too. Stories of Sting's Tantric practices were making the rounds for quite a while there.

Although I'll grant, given my phrasing, eliminating A is pretty much a gimme.


----------



## TiggyBlue

JCD said:


> Here's the deal: Wives (delightful creatures all) have any NUMBER of things they don't want me (generic) to do.
> 
> They don't want me to be attracted to anyone else. Note the word WANT. See Created2Write (who is a friend, btw) as an HONEST exhibit of this. Realistic? No. WANT!
> 
> They don't want me to spend my money on 'frivilous' (their definition) items.
> 
> They don't want me to spend time on friends whom they consider 'bad influences' i.e. cause me to question my wife.
> 
> 
> They don't want me to indulge in dangerous activities (depending on how much life insurance I buy, the opposite might be true...)
> 
> So...WANT is a rather slippery term.


wow how many wives do you have?



> Let's turn that around. I don't want my wife to cut her hair. EVER! I like it long and I'd just as soon be able to wind around her feet in the coffin to keep her toes warm.
> 
> Is that outrageous? Is it controlling? It makes her attractive and I WANT to be attracted to her. Her cutting her hair will HARM my attractedness to her, thus harming our relationship.
> 
> So...by your definition, she should not be allowed to cut her hair.
> 
> Anyone disagree with that?


Personally I know my husband like's my hair long so I keep it long (even thought it can be a pain in the *ss) because I respect that's what he's attracted to. Yes I could cut my hair and save myself loads of grief keeping his attraction to me (and our marriage) is more important.


----------



## sparkyjim

I also thought it was answer b. I have heard about them also, so that is where I thought you would have heard of it.

I would be very surprised to hear that it is c - but then you are the comics dude, so it could be possible. 

Damn, now I have talked myself out of b...


----------



## Grayson

TiggyBlue said:


> Personally I know my husband like's my hair long so I keep it long (even thought it can be a pain in the *ss) because I respect that's what he's attracted to. Yes I could cut my hair and save myself loads of grief keeping his attraction to me (and our marriage) is more important.


At this point, I honestly don't remember if I used this example earlier in the thread or not. I know I started to at one point, but don't remember if I edited it out before posting. Anyway, here goes...sorry if it's a repeat.

My wife will consider a new hairstyle and/or color. She'll ask me my opinion about it. I'll give it to her, then tell her in all honesty, that my opinion should be secondary to hers, because it's her hair, on her head, and she has to be happy with it; whatever she chooses, the hair's on her, and she's the one I want.

What I will do, though, is point out observations based on her past experiences. If she wants to cut it extremely short, I'll remind her that every time she does, it drives her crazy and she can't wait for it to grow out. If she want to grow it especially long, I'll point out that that drives her crazy, too. She prefers a happy medium, but if she wants to try something different...go for it!


----------



## sparkyjim

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If her self-esteem is affected by the fact that female imagery turns me on...


It's not that the imagery turns you on...she knows that.

It's that she wants to be "all that and a bag of chips" for you.


----------



## sparkyjim

Grayson said:


> go for it!



You are a good man...


----------



## JCD

TiggyBlue said:


> wow how many wives do you have?
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I know my husband like's my hair long so I keep it long (even thought it can be a pain in the *ss) because I respect that's what he's attracted to. Yes I could cut my hair and save myself loads of grief keeping his attraction to me (and our marriage) is more important.


One at a time to the first question. She still has that new wife smell, so I guess I'll keep her.

But to truly answer your question: I listen to a lot of husbands.

My wife feels the same way re hair, which I bless her for.

If she had a problem with my porn use or other relationship damaging stuff, I would absolutely listen and we'd discuss it.

WHY discuss it and not immediately capitulate? Because a) I have an opinion too and b) she might be wrong.


----------



## sparkyjim

JCD said:


> If she had a problem with my porn use or other relationship damaging stuff, I would absolutely listen and we'd discuss it.
> 
> WHY discuss it and not immediately capitulate? Because a) I have an opinion too and b) she might be wrong.



Of course...

I just wanted to say that the sense of the word "entitled" is that the spouse's feeling and concerns about the issue do not matter.

You, Grayson, and quite a few others have weighed in with the opinion that your partner's feelings and opinions do matter.

Other posters have stated quite clearly that they do not care what their partner thinks.


----------



## Grayson

sparkyjim said:


> Of course...
> 
> I just wanted to say that the sense of the word "entitled" is that the spouse's feeling and concerns about the issue do not matter.
> 
> You, Grayson, and quite a few others have weighed in with the opinion that your partner's feelings and opinions do matter.
> 
> Other posters have stated quite clearly that they do not care what their partner thinks.


As I've also said, though, I can somewhat understand their point.

Most of us would find it silly to hear of someone insisting that their spouse eliminate sitcoms, or country music, or science fiction books, or.... (See how quickly C2W dismissed the example of country music.) But, somehow, if the entertainment genre in question involves nekkid people, then the partner viewing it is apparently expected to capitulate without *their *feelings on the matter also being taken into account.


----------



## Grayson

Grayson said:


> Time to throw another "you MUST have learned about that from porn" idea out the window. Let's make it fun and put it in the form of a quiz:
> 
> Grayson first learned of Tantric sex from--
> 
> A: Porn
> B: Stories about Sting & wife Trudie Styler practicing it
> C: A series of science-fiction super-hero stories edited by George R.R. Martin
> D: Message boards/chat rooms
> 
> I'm gonna wait to provide the answer. I'm genuinely curious to see what people guess.


Before I turn in for the night...

JCD was correct. It was the character Fortunato in the Wild Cards series. I'd figured Lewis Shiner, who created Fortunato, had made up all that Tantric stuff...til I heard about Sting's practice of it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I assumed he wanted sex, and not just a BJ. If all he wanted was a BJ or a HJ, then obviously I wouldn't need foreplay. Besides, I nearly _always_ want an orgasm. If he's awake and he can't sleep and wants an orgasm, and doesn't wake me up to ask me to give him one, he's being utterly selfish by excluding me. I can't respect
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, I nearly _always_ want an orgasm.
> 
> 
> 
> So you give with the expectation of getting back immediately? That's not selfish?
> 
> imo, sometimes its all about the other person. Giving without receiving or having any strings. Not tit for tat and keeping score to make sure everything is nice and even.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't sex about much more than _just_ physical appearance? At least for my husband and I it is. I don't just go around screwing whoever is the hottest. I don't intend on being attracted sexually to anyone but my husband, no matter how old me are. And just because he's old, doesn't mean he's gonna be fat. Health is important, and even though we will age, we're going to keep ourselves in the best condition we can. But regardless, I'd like to think that after...thirty to forty years together my husband would love me and be sexually attracted to me for much more than my body.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely sex is about much more than physical appearance. But you know what's not? His erections. I can't imagine that gets better with age for most men either. I don't know... I'm relatively young. But even now I notice there are fewer and fewer women my age that turn me on by appearance alone. I wonder if that element gets lost and all you have left is anticipation of physical sensation. Hopefully its not like the last woman in her 30s I dated described of her ex husband - he could only get hard by physical touch - HJ/BJ.
> 
> I'm just saying, right now, I can't see how visual sex appeal is retained as skin wrinkles, boobs sag, a$$es and waistlines grow, and spots appear. But hey, thunder said his taste evolved upwards with his age... so maybe it stays sexy, whatever it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> All of this at the expense of the other person, though? Regardless of how they feel?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why is the need of a person whose sexual desire is not being met irrelevant? What about how they feel?
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> Selfish. Plain and simple. Making it seem like he's doing me a favor doesn't change the fact that he would be putting himself first, and this choosing the porn over his wife.
> 
> He doesn't have to arouse me first before he gets his bj. But, I absolutely 100% believe that sex should be mutually satisfying. If he gets his, why shouldn't I get mine? Especially since, once I've given him the bj, I'm gonna be aroused now too. In this instance he's putting his own needs above those of his wife, and saying, "I really don't want to give you an orgasm, or put in the time for it. And I know you'll want one if I wake you up and ask for a bj, so I'll just avoid the work, wack off to porn and go back to sleep."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that more selfish than attaching strings to benefits? Why shouldn't you get yours? Because he was interested in a lazy orgasm, not making a nice and balanced transaction. Is it selfish? I don't expect to receive every time I give, and I don't expect to have to give every time I receive. These things balance themselves out.
> 
> The point of the example is to demonstrate a time you don't want to met the conditions of his desire... a time that porn occupies quite nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> My husband knows that I welcome him waking me up for a bj or full on intercourse. I value our sex life much, much more than an hour of sleep. So does he. So no need for him to feel like an a$$. No need to supplement when your spouse really is 100% available to you in some way. I truly believe that when people focus more on obtaining this kind of a sexual relationship, rather than just pursue porn, they will find that porn really isn't a need at all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ah yeah, that was my wife before year 5 or 6 and our first kid too. She, like you, was also a virgin who planned to wait for marriage... but I'm a cunning linguist and a sneaky lil Dvl.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> I could never be with someone who used porn even a little bit and tried to justify it. If I found out my husband was a closet user, but really wanted to quit, that would be different. But if he said what you just did, my response would be, "Hope the porn keeps you warm at night...cause I sure as hell won't be there". As harsh as that may sound.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not harsh at all. I'm not interested in anti-porn women for more than a ONS.
> 
> And just call me skeptical about the always available rosey scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. No offense, but this attitude is just a major, major turn off to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why would I be offended? I'm just as turned off by people who are rabidly anti-porn. It strikes me as remarkably uptight and antiquated; mired in insecurity and the desire to control.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> A woman, ready and eager to sexually satisfy her husband, to the point of even wanting him to wake her up if he needs a release in the middle of the night, and that's not enough?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sure, that's enough for me.
> 
> By the count of the men I know, certainly not common.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> And here is the divide. Masturbation is something you to do to your body, which I don't have an issue with.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are you sure? Some guys can become conditioned to the feel of their hand and have difficulty performing with you.
> 
> (did I just kill hubby's private time?)
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I ever asked or told my husband not to masturbate, I would expect him to laugh at me. But since you can masturbate without porn and without fantasizing, it doesn't make sense to say that porn is only physical. It's not. What we see throughout the day, what he hear, enter our minds and stay there. It's why I can still recall that sex scene in that one romance novel I read years ago. _Those_ things linger, and _can_ haunt us later. Porn isn't just one moment of arousal devoid of any connection whatsoever. At least, I don't buy that it is. You body may be yours, but your mind effects everything else. Including what arouses you, what your attracted to, etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is for some people and it isn't for others.
> 
> Porn is utterly devoid of connection for me and infrequent enough to be entirely irrelevant and harmless. This isn't even a matter of protecting porn which I don't view very often. What I resent, and the reason I participate in this thread, is the notion that anyone has any rightful say whatsoever to what I may look at or think about.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> FTR, I don't believe that we have a right to arouse ourselves with whatever we want. Not. At. All. I disagree 100%.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's why you're you and I'm me.  If its selfish to own my own body and mind, then I'm selfish and wouldn't have it any other way.
> 
> 
> 
> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> That it goes beyond entitlement to an unwillingness and inability to give it up, thus needing to use statements like your last paragraph to justify using it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Darn it! I thought you might have had something deeper than that. I have no more inability to "give up" porn than I have an inability to give up New York Strip steaks. I happen to like New York Strips, and don't really give a poop that vegetarian girl thinks cows are tortured and doesn't like me anymore for eating it. I say bye-bye to the vegetarian girl who wants to tell me what I can eat.
Click to expand...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

LongWalk said:


> I've read before than porn is the biggest part of the Internet. Facebook is nothing compared to porn.


Internet is for PORN!! - YouTube


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Fulfilling for whom, though? Again, this putting his sexual fulfillment above his wife's, assuming she isn't okay with porn use.


But its okay for her to be above his eh? So if he really fantasizes about bdsm... and that's a total turn off for her, what's his recourse? Deny his desire right? haha ok.



Created2Write said:


> Something I forgot to add earlier: the fact that my husband doesn't nag me about anal sex, and doesn't watch porn involving anal or anything, makes me _want_ to fulfill that desire all the more, seeing how much he respects my boundaries. I may not be comfortable with it now, but I hope to be someday. And since anal sex is not a need, and is merely a fantasy, I absolutely expect him to wait for me to get to that place. If he were to suddenly decide he wasn't patient enough to wait and started watching porn with anal sex, I'd leave him. Plain and simple.


Yes, I know. You don't get the virgins by being pushy. 



Created2Write said:


> So yeah, you can do whatever you like with your body and your fantasies, but don't expect your wife to stick around. She should be more important than a fantasy.


Well that all depends now doesn't it? If a woman is prudish about my enjoyment of fantasy... I'd like to think she wouldn't be my wife. 



Created2Write said:


> *sigh* Do you really have to use an extreme you know I'm not talking about? Having a mutually satisfying sex life with our spouse _is_ an entitlement in marriage. At least in my opinion. That doesn't mean take her against her will.  That wouldn't be very mutual would it?


I'm strictly going by definition here. Is not an entitlement. It is literally a privilege... and even then I'm probably pushing it. Really its only a desire. You never know, hubby might not be able to get her off at all. Might rethink the position on vibrators at that point, maybe. 



Created2Write said:


> Sure, as a grown man you're entitled to watch whatever you want. And as a grown woman, I'm entitled to withhold sex whenever I want.
> 
> But both should be willing to accept whatever consequences come of those choices, because each choice is selfish, and is putting personal desire above the marriage relationship.


Exactly why I'd have dumped her and find a more liberal woman in the first place.




Created2Write said:


> Says the one using the porn.


AHH... but see, I have plenty of experience with women who LIKE porn. Heck, one girlfriend of mine liked watching cartoons of Japanese school girls getting attacked by giant octopus monsters with penis-tentacles. She also liked porn with absurdly large black penises... like, think the size of her forearm. She would literally have been in the hospital if she had one of these things for real.

Man oh man how in the world did we have the hot sex we had with her having those kind of expectations? 




Created2Write said:


> No need for me to find someone else. I have the perfect match for me. So, obviously, you need a woman who is fine with porn use.


I wasn't talking about you. If someone finds something I like to be a turnoff, they can find someone else. Sort of a win-win don't you think? One thing I know is true: a woman isn't gonna control me by withholding sex... or attaching any conditions to sex. I don't play that way and would just as happily toss her on her a$$.



Created2Write said:


> Also, a tattoo isn't the same as porn. Not at all. A tattoo really only effects you. Porn effects her because it means your choosing porn over her each and every time you use it, regardless of the reason you give.


False. It doesn't affect her if she was unavailable or unwilling. I don't think your "always available" scenario is the experience of most men. Additionally, if without porn a guy has sex with his wife 5 days a week and with porn has sex with his wife 5 days a week.... I have a tough time seeing how he chose porn over her. If I might go all economics major on you for a moment, this is not a zero sum game.




Created2Write said:


> Grow up would be a good start. lol. Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive, but come on. If a 60 something year old man is still watching porn, he has officially crossed the creep boundary. Not to mention how shallow that is.
> 
> There are a lot of older women on this forum who are still hot for their husbands and eager to please them and be pleased by them. I admire them so, so much. They deserve to have loving husbands who would choose them above porn, no matter how much they've aged.


lol I don't know, I'm curious now... though any 60 year old men who speak out that they like porn would now be "officially creepy". Honestly, I don't see why it would be creepy nor does it make one shallow.

I just want to know... does Mr. 60-year old still crave that 20-something hottie? Rhetorical question thought right? I think we all know, but its uncouth to say. How old is Heff's latest wife? Ever notice the second wife is usually (always?) younger? Just sayin, might be something to it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Thundarr said:


> You guys are hard core on both sides of this issue. I can't imagine leaving my wife because she doesn't want me to watch porn. I can't imagine her leaving me if she found some porn site in my browser history either (assuming it's legal stuff).
> 
> Fortunately I don't have to watch it and she wouldn't flip out if I did but for argument's sake I'll play the what if game. What if she flat out said she hates it yet I really liked it. Well I'd try very hard to not watch it ever. She's the mother of my children and the person I plan to grow old with so it's a no brainer. What if I slipped up and she found out. Well If I were doing my best and she made it into a show stopper then that would be pretty sad. Hopefully I'm the guy she plans to grow old with so surely it wouldn't be so easy to make into a show stopper.


Or you could... you know... not get with someone who hates something you like in the first place.

Women really have no more power to make men stop watching porn than men have to make women watch it. They'll say no porn and some schmuck will probably agree to it even though he wants it, and years down the road she'll learn he's been porking the porn to his heart's content in secret and she'll be all upset and jealous.

The divorce threats over a guy occasionally watching porn despite his wife's otherwise full satisfaction with their sex life is honestly laughable. Its like how women near-universally say they'll drop a guy like a bad habit if he cheats. They all sing that song, until its THEIR man that cheated and not just some hypothetical situation. Turns out, its mostly talk. Ask me how I know?  

Can't wait to see the sh*t storm that one gets.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

sparkyjim said:


> Some did post about their insecurity - but so what? They have a right to feel insecure if they feel insecure. It doesn't make them wrong... Dvls has a right to not feel compassion for his partner. He is entitled to that. But then his partner might want to say that she is entitled to have someone who cares about how she feels.


Its not a matter of compassion. I simply wouldn't be with someone so insecure.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> When your sex life rocks better than any porn you can watch, you will find that porn isn't so important as you thought it was.
> 
> And yet, if what you see in porn is better than any sex you've ever had, this should be your clue to get with REALITY and stop holding yourself back. Stop pummeling your poor body into submission to images on the screen and figure out what you have to do to actually HAVE great sex instead of just watching it.
> 
> If that means divorce because your wife doesn't want the same thing as you do sex-wise, then do it and stop blaming her for holding YOU back.


Oh, that's funny... I've had some pretty rockin' sex with porn projected on the big screen. Its about as important as lube, feathers, blind folds or handcuffs. Generally unnecessary, but nice to have when you want em.

Surely you don't mean to say that all those who like porn aren't having great sex? Boy would that be short-sighted.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

I can't keep pace with this thread. I'm still like four pages behind and I just spent a couple hours reading and replying.

I'm going to have to bail. Besides, I'm girlfriendless at the moment, I can watch all the porn I want and not have to listen to someone bish.

Not really related side question I thought I'd gather some opinions on: if you're talking to someone and interested in a relationship, but they're keeping distant - getting closer but really dragging it out, at what point would you consider there to be sexual exclusivity?

In other words, I want Girl A but she's being a total pita and flakey, meanwhile Girl B who I just met is coming on hard and I need to get laid. At what point is hooking up with Girl B a violation to Girl A.

See... I consider other people's feelings.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Or you could... you know... not get with someone who hates something you like in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Women really have no more power to make men stop watching porn than men have to make women watch it. They'll say no porn and some schmuck will probably agree to it even though he wants it, and years down the road she'll learn he's been porking the porn to his heart's content in secret and she'll be all upset and jealous.
> 
> 
> 
> I cant stop my man watching porn just as he cant stop me cheating, having EAs, flirting, masturbating in secret with a massive vibrator etc.. The thing is I know those things would upset him, he wouldn't like it and it would hurt our relationship.. So it's really weird but I don't do them. Shocking I know. So strange that we mutually give each other power in our relationship, and don't wish to hurt one another.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The divorce threats over a guy occasionally watching porn despite his wife's otherwise full satisfaction with their sex life is honestly laughable. Its like how women near-universally say they'll drop a guy like a bad habit if he cheats. They all sing that song, until its THEIR man that cheated and not just some hypothetical situation. Turns out, its mostly talk. Ask me how I know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes so funny to dismiss women's pain.
> 
> I don't make idle threats, my first fiancé and father of my infant daughter learned that when I left him when he cheated on me.
> 
> Many men also stay with women who cheated on them, making a mockery of people's boundaries isn't cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to see the sh*t storm that one gets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can't say I'd put so much stock into your comments as to call them **** storm worthy, they really aren't that amazing. Many people disagree in these threads but they don't seem to ...umm shall we say think they are so amazing. Your comments aren't any different to the other men who claim they want their wives to put them first yet aren't even willing to give up some porn for their wives. That's some strange back the front thinking.
> 
> PS not calling you creepy or anything but your posts kind of come off as middle age creeper. Sends a shiver down my spine. Eeeww
Click to expand...


----------



## Starstarfish

> But even now I notice there are fewer and fewer women my age that turn me on by appearance alone. I wonder if that element gets lost and all you have left is anticipation of physical sensation. Hopefully its not like the last woman in her 30s I dated described of her ex husband - he could only get hard by physical touch - HJ/BJ.





> I'm just saying, right now, I can't see how visual sex appeal is retained as skin wrinkles, boobs sag, a$$es and waistlines grow, and spots appear. But hey, thunder said his taste evolved upwards with his age... so maybe it stays sexy, whatever it is.


I've just got to say that I think that the potential for a long-term relationship that lasts into that age range sounds spotty at best with that mentality. So - rather than growing closer to the wive sexually and emotionally over time, eventually you predict she just won't turn you on at all. With her sagging boobs and sagging rear. Are you going to tell a potential wife that ahead of time - PS, as we get older, I'll only need porn more, as I totally know when you get old you'll totally turn me off. 

I'm sure that will go over really well. 

And - if erections can only come through direct visual stimuli - when do men always fear a pop-a-boner during a business meeting? Does their balding, overweight boss secretly turn them on? Or is there more to it than that?

Also the reason why second wives are often younger than the first is at the time isn't likely just about sex appeal, but the fact that the man is now settled enough and rich enough to elicit that attention. When he was 20 himself and working at Taco Bell, that hot thing on his arm likely wouldn't have sneezed on him.


----------



## JCD

Starstarfish said:


> I've just got to say that I think that the potential for a long-term relationship that lasts into that age range sounds spotty at best with that mentality. So - rather than growing closer to the wive sexually and emotionally over time, eventually you predict she just won't turn you on at all. With her sagging boobs and sagging rear. Are you going to tell a potential wife that ahead of time - PS, as we get older, I'll only need porn more, as I totally know when you get old you'll totally turn me off.
> 
> I'm sure that will go over really well.
> 
> And - if erections can only come through direct visual stimuli - when do men always fear a pop-a-boner during a business meeting? Does their balding, overweight boss secretly turn them on? Or is there more to it than that?
> 
> Also the reason why second wives are often younger than the first is at the time isn't likely just about sex appeal, but the fact that the man is now settled enough and rich enough to elicit that attention. When he was 20 himself and working at Taco Bell, that hot thing on his arm likely wouldn't have sneezed on him.


Huh. So male boredom of his spouse is at least excaberated by porn...

Well...since spousal boredom isn't a single gender sport, what's the woman's excuse?

Because since they are so 'evolved' as to only care about character unlike us visual mouth breathing men...well...my CHARACTER doesn't get saggy...


----------



## Lost at sea

Is there a porn police to prevent men from watching porn? Seems control freaky to me. It is different if he is dome video game playing guy ignoring his spouse, but ina normal context some girls should just get over themselves a little bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## okeydokie

You guys need to understand, you watching porn is bad because she has lost some of her vaginal control over you.

Of course this is directed at women who use such control over their men


----------



## Maricha75

Lost at sea said:


> Is there a porn police to prevent men from watching porn? Seems control freaky to me. It is different if he is dome video game playing guy ignoring his spouse, but ina normal context some girls should just get over themselves a little bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So, wait... if I'm understanding this correctly, you mean to say that if a guy is playing video games and his SO doesn't like it (says it's too excessive/does it too much for her liking/whatever), he should stop/cut back... but if it's porn, she needs to get over herself? Is that what you're saying? If so... that's really messed up. I really hope I misunderstood what you were saying... really.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*LittleDeer* said:


> not calling you creepy or anything but your posts kind of come off as middle age creeper. Sends a shiver down my spine. Eeeww


Awesome! Success! Its meant to point out just how ridiculous I think it is to be jealous of pixels.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

okeydokie said:


> You guys need to understand, you watching porn is bad because she has lost some of her vaginal control over you.
> 
> Of course this is directed at women who use such control over their men


 you would be assuming that sex is used to control someone, seeing as we don't turn each other down that makes no sense. But OK.

Does him not wanting me to use a huge fake penis make him controlling too? Or is it just his preference? He wouldn't want me using vibrators for many reasons that seem legit, however some people have no issues with them, so is he just an insecure controlling man? Or should I listen to him and care about how he feels?


----------



## Maricha75

Grayson said:


> Or, to illustrate, if I were your husband and simply told you, "I have a problem with you watching _How I Met Your Mother_," what would that mean? What would be the appropriate response from you?


IMO, the appropriate response would be "what do you have a problem with?'... And, if he felt that strongly about it (as has been stated before), the show is gone. No show/movie/game/[insert any other inane activity] is worth losing my husband over. As stated before... I stopped watching soap operas early on because he asked me to. It is just that simple.


----------



## *LittleDeer*

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Awesome! Success! Its meant to point out just how ridiculous I think it is to be jealous of pixels.


Doesn't change anything... You can think it is ridiculous, your posts allude to more then that. 

I could say its ridiculous to be jealous of children, however you felt replaced in your marriage by them. You wanted to come first.

Lots of women feel that way about porn. For good reason.

I'm sure you don't appreciate it when people are dismissive of your boundaries.


----------



## TiggyBlue

*LittleDeer* said:


> Does him not wanting me to use a huge fake penis make him controlling too? Or is it just his preference? He wouldn't want me using vibrators for many reasons that seem legit, however some people have no issues with them, so is he just an insecure controlling man? Or should I listen to him and care about how he feels?


No he's controlling and insecure (it's the only explanation), you should definitely not listen to someone who is so insecure you should tell him it's your body and you WON'T be controlled while also insulting him (remember he is jealous and insecure and he's penis isn't going to be enough for you for ever/ you need variation/ sometimes your to lazy to get him off). 
It's the approach that will make him realize how he is trying to control you 

I mean think about it.... he's jealous of plastic and really if you don't see a problem with it what does it matter how he feels.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yeah, Created's sex life is the norm. :rofl: Ask her again in 3 years.


Or 9 years... which is where my own marriage is. Oh wait... that wouldn't support your position.


----------



## CallaLily

JMO, but I think anything that is not ok with a spouse needs to be addressed. Whether its a woman who doesn't like porn that her husband is watching, or the husband who doesn't like the fact his wife is spending to much time/money shopping etc, things that take away from the marriage as a whole need to be addressed. 

If a woman shares her concerns with her husband about his porn use, drinking, etc or whatever, and he continues on regardless of her feelings, then to me thats when it could become an entitlement issue for him, and vice versa. Same for the man. If he talks to his wife about her shopping and spending issue, but yet she keeps on, then yes, that may come across as she feels entitled to continue on with a behavior that is disrupting the marriage. just my 2 cents.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Maricha75 said:


> Or 9 years... which is where my own marriage is. Oh wait... that wouldn't support your position.


Seriously you would think it's a given sex life just dwindles, that's kind of sad


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> I've just got to say that I think that the potential for a long-term relationship that lasts into that age range sounds spotty at best with that mentality. So - rather than growing closer to the wive sexually and emotionally over time, eventually you predict she just won't turn you on at all. With her sagging boobs and sagging rear. Are you going to tell a potential wife that ahead of time - PS, as we get older, I'll only need porn more, as I totally know when you get old you'll totally turn me off.


Just my suspicions, I honestly have no idea. I'll let you know when I get there. The things is, I just lay it out... what if we're not turned on by our old wifeys body anymore? I'm aware many older couples watch porn to at least begin arousal.



Starstarfish said:


> And - if erections can only come through direct visual stimuli - when do men always fear a pop-a-boner during a business meeting? Does their balding, overweight boss secretly turn them on? Or is there more to it than that?


I didn't say they only came that way. He could be sleepy. He could be remarkably relaxed. Those tend not to be the case when sex is imminent though. What I said was in the context of having sex: that erections would become the domain of anticipating physical sensation, or via direct stimulation. I suspect getting a boner for the woman's body comes to an end. I don't know... I'm not there. I just suspect that a lot of older hubbies probably watch porn because they don't have the hots for older wifey's body anymore and they still want that form of arousal. No double standard... odds are he's on his way downhill too. I suspect women care far less. Old men with young girls is quite the popular category.



Starstarfish said:


> Also the reason why second wives are often younger than the first is at the time isn't likely just about sex appeal, but the fact that the man is now settled enough and rich enough to elicit that attention. When he was 20 himself and working at Taco Bell, that hot thing on his arm likely wouldn't have sneezed on him.


Uhmm... sure, but that's her side of the coin. His is just that she's younger and more attractive. I didn't say any of it is pretty. It is what it is. Good we agree that men and women can be equally shallow.


----------



## Kobo

okeydokie said:


> You guys need to understand, you watching porn is bad because she has lost some of her vaginal control over you.
> 
> Of course this is directed at women who use such control over their men


Have you ever watch this play out in a relationship as a third party? "Why is your wife blowing you up?" "I started telling her not tonight." Last I heard he's being asked to get his T count tested. I told him he should because she's going to get that attention from somewhere.


----------



## Kobo

Maricha75 said:


> Why should a woman have to sacrifice her happiness so her husband can watch porn? See, goes both ways.
> 
> And we keep going round and round in a circle... those who hold fast to it, and those who see no good purpose for it.


She doesn't have to


----------



## Kobo

sparkyjim said:


> The truth is that you would have more sexual success if you gave all of your sexual energy to your SO.


And here is the assumption that I don't have "sexual success" with my spouse because I view porn. OK. Don't project your relationship on me.


----------



## Thundarr

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Or you could... you know... not get with someone who hates something you like in the first place.


Few think about compatibility until the new wears off and they're confused to why it was so good to start and so bad now without the tingles and butterflies. Smart people only let that happen once in a life time. People smarter than me knew to begin with.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Women really have no more power to make men stop watching porn than men have to make women watch it. They'll say no porn and some schmuck will probably agree to it even though he wants it, and years down the road she'll learn he's been porking the porn to his heart's content in secret and she'll be all upset and jealous.
> 
> The divorce threats over a guy occasionally watching porn despite his wife's otherwise full satisfaction with their sex life is honestly laughable. Its like how women near-universally say they'll drop a guy like a bad habit if he cheats. They all sing that song, until its THEIR man that cheated and not just some hypothetical situation. Turns out, its mostly talk. Ask me how I know?


Not just women though. Hypothetical show stoppers are easy. You know what you would do when tested and only then. Most things aren't show stoppers but they build resentment and send people to chat forums to lash out or boast or complain or just vent .


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Maricha75 said:


> Or 9 years... which is where my own marriage is. Oh wait... that wouldn't support your position.


I don't need you to support my position. My position is supported by research which says most couples don't have the sex lives you two are describing. Every survey of sexual behaviors in marriage you can find supports my position. Even if this whole forum was like you, I still wouldn't be sweating in comparison to my tens of thousands surveyed.

According to the Kinsey Institute, whose numbers I think most here will readily accept:

13% of married couples report having sex just a few times per YEAR.
45% reported a few times per MONTH.
34% reported having sex 2-3 times per WEEK.
7% reported 4 or more times per week.

The vast majority of sex is also run of the mill missionary doldrum, not stripper poles and always available midnight BJs. As just one example of female sexual control, less than 10% of couples engage in bdsm acts any more than a couple times a YEAR, while 30% of married males were interested in it. Why the mismatch of desire and performance? Oh yeah, only 12% of women desired it. The same pattern repeats for other out of the majority sexual interests. The data imply that it is generally required that a man simply drop his sexual interests if his partner isn't interested, as opposed to the woman expanding her range of sexual activity. Its widely thought wrong to expect a woman to expand their range of sexual interest (oh no! pressure!), but perfectly acceptable to demand that men drop theirs. Gimme a break.

You can't argue with the stats. If your sex lives are really as you describe, you're way the hell out of the range of "normal." That's awesome! But not normal... which was my point.

A full 92% of married couples report having sex 3 times a week or less... and the kicker? This encompasses ALL forms of couple sex. Oral, PIV, Anal, manual stimulation, you name it. The truth is, most people... nay, the VAST majority... don't have much sex.

No there's not much room for porn in this orgy.  So again I say: insecurity and control.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*LittleDeer* said:


> Does him not wanting me to use a huge fake penis make him controlling too? Or is it just his preference? He wouldn't want me using vibrators for many reasons that seem legit, however some people have no issues with them, so *is he just an insecure controlling man*? Or *should I listen to him and care about how he feels*?


Yes, and that's up to you.


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> IMO, the appropriate response would be "what do you have a problem with?'... And, if he felt that strongly about it (as has been stated before), the show is gone. No show/movie/game/[insert any other inane activity] is worth losing my husband over. As stated before... I stopped watching soap operas early on because he asked me to. It is just that simple.


Hi.

Welcome to my point. Kick off your shoes and stay a while. ;-)

We've seen frequently, in this and other similar threads, statements to the effect of, "If a wife _has a problem with porn, her husband should stop viewing it" with absolutely no context as to the nature or strength of this "problem." I touched on this in another reply last night, too. Your reaction to it being a sitcom would be to get to the root of the problem and see if it's something that needs to go, or is it something where there's some middle ground. But, if the people on screen (or page, or whatever) have no clothes? Seems that far too often, the automatic response is that the partner viewing should jettison that entertainment, no questions asked.
Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*LittleDeer* said:


> Doesn't change anything... You can think it is ridiculous, your posts allude to more then that.
> 
> I could say its ridiculous to be jealous of children, however you felt replaced in your marriage by them. You wanted to come first.
> 
> Lots of women feel that way about porn. For good reason.
> 
> I'm sure you don't appreciate it when people are dismissive of your boundaries.


I wasn't jealous of children. I was neglected by my wife. And if you'll read again, you'll noticed I've repeatedly said that porn use that results in neglect of one's spouse is a problem.

The problem isn't porn, its neglect.

Why would I care if someone is dismissive of my boundaries? They're my boundaries. I don't care what someone else thinks of them. Whatever works for you works for you regardless of my opinion that these hubby's are obedient and p*ssy whipped.

Generally speaking, the only guy I respect who is not watching porn after he got married, is the guy who didn't watch porn before he got married. The rest are submissive to their wives control of sex. Possibly excepting a few who might have legitimately lost interest in porn.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

sparkyjim said:


> I meant to ask if men think that they are entitled to watch porn - even if his partner wishes that he would not.[/B][/I]
> 
> My personal take NOW is that porn is destructive to my mental and physical health and I would like to avoid it. But I had to do a lot of research to arrive at this viewpoint.
> 
> I am curious to hear what other men (and women ) think...


Posting in between work tasks and don't have time nor energy to get involved in the debate so I'll just address the OP.

I was the porn viewer in my relationship and my SO was the one who had the issue with it.
As with all things in our relationships we need to weigh things carefully.
1.Is my porn viewing worth having my SO feeling insecure and upset?
2.Will I feel resentment or feel he's controlling me if respect his wishes and stop my occasional viewing of porn?
3.Do I understand why he feels the way he does? If no,I need to ask more questions to understand.
4.If the situation was reversed,what would I want him to do?

I believe we're all entitled to certain freedoms within our relationships provided those freedoms do not cause major emotional strain or mental trauma for our partners.

I also believe there is a limit to how much a person should have to give up in order to make their partner comfortable...this is a case by case situation because every relationship is going to have different limits depending on the people involved.

If not viewing porn makes my partner feel more confident and respected,I'm ok with giving it up.

If I wasn't ok with giving it up that would tell me I need to evaluate why I'm not ok with it,express that to him and go from there to figure out a solution we can both live with happily.

For the porn situation there has to be a mature and calm discussion.It's a hot button for many people and we need to talk about it in ways that help our partner really hear us and feel where we're coming from on the matter whether we're for porn or against it.

Chances are if you can't settle on a solution to the porn issue,there are probably many other areas of the relationship that have a weak foundation.


----------



## Kobo

Thundarr said:


> Adjusting sexually means not sleeping with other women which is pretty important to marriage. Trying to make your partner happy and expecting her to make you happy is pretty important too. Now if you watch porn and she doesn't care then it works for both of you. Hopefully nothing changes because it sounds like no room for compromise.


Yup and I can choose to do or not make any adjustment individually. Just as my wife can choose to make or not make any adjustments for me. Some couples continue having sex with others. They made the decision that they did not want to make that adjustments. Sorry ladies but every post is but if your wife FEELS this or if your WIFE feels that. I don't operate like that. If I can watch porn, masturbate, and still be attentive to my wife sexually and emotionally then there is no REAL reason for me to change. Every person is responsible for their own happiness even in a marriage. Porn in a healthy relationship like the one under my roof does not lead to an unattentive husband, cheating or husband trying to have his wife perform a subdivision gangbang.


----------



## TiggyBlue

ScarletBegonias said:


> Posting in between work tasks and don't have time nor energy to get involved in the debate so I'll just address the OP.
> 
> I was the porn viewer in my relationship and my SO was the one who had the issue with it.
> As with all things in our relationships we need to weigh things carefully.
> 1.Is my porn viewing worth having my SO feeling insecure and upset?
> 2.Will I feel resentment or feel he's controlling me if respect his wishes and stop my occasional viewing of porn?
> 3.Do I understand why he feels the way he does? If no,I need to ask more questions to understand.
> 4.If the situation was reversed,what would I want him to do?
> 
> I believe we're all entitled to certain freedoms within our relationships provided those freedoms do not cause major emotional strain or mental trauma for our partners.
> 
> I also believe there is a limit to how much a person should have to give up in order to make their partner comfortable...this is a case by case situation because every relationship is going to have different limits depending on the people involved.
> 
> If not viewing porn makes my partner feel more confident and respected,I'm ok with giving it up.
> 
> If I wasn't ok with giving it up that would tell me I need to evaluate why I'm not ok with it,express that to him and go from there to figure out a solution we can both live with happily.
> 
> For the porn situation there has to be a mature and calm discussion.It's a hot button for many people and we need to talk about it in ways that help our partner really hear us and feel where we're coming from on the matter whether we're for porn or against it.
> 
> Chances are if you can't settle on a solution to the porn issue,there are probably many other areas of the relationship that have a weak foundation.


:iagree:
Perfectly put :smthumbup:


----------



## Grayson

ScarletBegonias said:


> Posting in between work tasks and don't have time nor energy to get involved in the debate so I'll just address the OP.
> 
> I was the porn viewer in my relationship and my SO was the one who had the issue with it.
> As with all things in our relationships we need to weigh things carefully.
> 1.Is my porn viewing worth having my SO feeling insecure and upset?
> 2.Will I feel resentment or feel he's controlling me if respect his wishes and stop my occasional viewing of porn?
> 3.Do I understand why he feels the way he does? If no,I need to ask more questions to understand.
> 4.If the situation was reversed,what would I want him to do?
> 
> I believe we're all entitled to certain freedoms within our relationships provided those freedoms do not cause major emotional strain or mental trauma for our partners.
> 
> I also believe there is a limit to how much a person should have to give up in order to make their partner comfortable...this is a case by case situation because every relationship is going to have different limits depending on the people involved.
> 
> If not viewing porn makes my partner feel more confident and respected,I'm ok with giving it up.
> 
> If I wasn't ok with giving it up that would tell me I need to evaluate why I'm not ok with it,express that to him and go from there to figure out a solution we can both live with happily.
> 
> For the porn situation there has to be a mature and calm discussion.It's a hot button for many people and we need to talk about it in ways that help our partner really hear us and feel where we're coming from on the matter whether we're for porn or against it.
> 
> Chances are if you can't settle on a solution to the porn issue,there are probably many other areas of the relationship that have a weak foundation.


Stop bein' all reasonable and realistic about it. Don'tcha know you're supposed to pick an extreme position on this subject?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Grayson said:


> Stop bein' all reasonable and realistic about it. Don'tcha know you're supposed to pick an extreme position on this subject?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 oops


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> Again, my case is probably more common than any want to admit. I find the absolute REFUSAL to relinquish a habit that hurts a spouse so confounding.
> 
> I'd apologize for bring my own situation front and center here, but...I'm not. It's easy to argue over abstract ideas but unfortunately I am living it. If my husband came here, he'd be advised to drop the controlling *insert slur of choice*. Promptly followed by posts about how insecure I am. That upsets me so much. *sigh*
> 
> Thanks everyone.


Not so... I think everyone is in agreement that what you describe your husband doing is compulsive, abusive and harmful.

I know women who are hurt by their men coming out to guys night once a week instead of staying home with them. I'm sorry, but some of these sorts of "hurt" are just insecure, excessively needy, controlling women.

When faced with such an absurdity, I'm going to move on, not comfort the crazy (your situation would be analogous to one of these guys spending every night out drinking - an obvious problem; so no, I'm not calling you crazy). I like ending a really good night partying by hitting up a strip club - usually WITH my girl by my side... if she has a problem with that and legitimately thinks I want a stripper more than her, that's a problem, and she's got to go. She's too uptight and I don't want her. That kind of insecurity is horribly unattractive to me. I'd be laughing my a$$ off with her at a male strip club. The idea that this douchey college drop out with his giant dong tucked into a speedo, and showing off his abs and pecs is a threat doesn't even cross my mind.

Side note: Funny thing about strip clubs... most men don't go for the girls. Strippers usually aren't the cream of the crop. We go for the loose, crazy, fun... no sh*t given atmosphere.

But you know what? If she has a problem with me getting a lap dance, I don't get a lap dance. There's an enormous difference between faux sex in my lap and looking. The mindset that looking is hurtful is just absurd. Everyone bust out the burkas at the beach... don't want any guys getting his jollies watching the babes in bikinis. He might be storing that imagery for later use in the shower because wifey forbids porn and he's a puss.

Its my experience that controlling insecurities like these express themselves in a lot of other areas as well.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> Posting in between work tasks and don't have time nor energy to get involved in the debate so I'll just address the OP.
> 
> I was the porn viewer in my relationship and my SO was the one who had the issue with it.
> As with all things in our relationships we need to weigh things carefully.
> 1.Is my porn viewing worth having my SO feeling insecure and upset?
> 2.Will I feel resentment or feel he's controlling me if respect his wishes and stop my occasional viewing of porn?
> 3.Do I understand why he feels the way he does? If no,I need to ask more questions to understand.
> 4.If the situation was reversed,what would I want him to do?
> 
> I believe we're all entitled to certain freedoms within our relationships provided those freedoms do not cause major emotional strain or mental trauma for our partners.
> 
> I also believe there is a limit to how much a person should have to give up in order to make their partner comfortable...this is a case by case situation because every relationship is going to have different limits depending on the people involved.
> 
> If not viewing porn makes my partner feel more confident and respected,I'm ok with giving it up.
> 
> If I wasn't ok with giving it up that would tell me I need to evaluate why I'm not ok with it,express that to him and go from there to figure out a solution we can both live with happily.
> 
> For the porn situation there has to be a mature and calm discussion.It's a hot button for many people and we need to talk about it in ways that help our partner really hear us and feel where we're coming from on the matter whether we're for porn or against it.
> 
> Chances are if you can't settle on a solution to the porn issue,there are probably many other areas of the relationship that have a weak foundation.


Your post is too good for this thread. Its making all the other posts jealous. I'm afraid you'll need to delete it. 

But seriously, good post.


----------



## ocotillo

I've got a 'Devils Advocate' type of question that directly ties into subjective perceptions of what is and is not pornographic.

The simple fact is there are plenty of things that 'tickle' the exact same areas of the brain that do not satisfy the legal and linguistic definitions of pornography. --Worse, if you are a male who voluntarily abstains from pornography, the effect of these things are greatly heightened.

What am I talking about? Okay It's getting warm here (Triple digits yesterday) and the neighbor's trophy wife is going to be washing the car on Saturday mornings in a bikini composed of about nine square inches of material. If I'm indulging my gardening hobby, she's going to come over and chat, because that's the kind of lady she is.

Or if my wife and I go shopping even to a place like Costco, there's going to be a dozen or so fit women in 'yoga pants' so tight that the crevices of the body are very clearly visible. They might as well be wearing only spray paint for what is left to imagination. 

Or if I look out my office window this afternoon, there's likely going to be a young lady in the backyard of the adjoining property reclining by the pool without her top. The property is pretty private so maybe she doesn't realize she can be seen. Or maybe she doesn't care. I don't know.

I'm not trying to come across as a 'dirty old man', I'm just pointing out that it's impossible to get away from everything that is visually pleasurable in a sexual way. Especially if you live in a warm climate in an affluent area. 

So the question is: Given the fact that other things can become a functional equivalent of porn, what is the difference? My wife and I are in a good place right now, but if the invisible pane of glass was still between us, I know that tableaus drawn from situations like I've described above would be popping into my head in a pleasurable way. No porn would be needed.

As far as relationships are concerned, is porn always the problem in and of itself, or is it a symptom of other problems? :scratchhead:


----------



## ScarletBegonias

ocotillo said:


> I've got a 'Devils Advocate' type of question that directly ties into subjective perceptions of what is and is not pornographic.
> 
> The simple fact is there are plenty of things that 'tickle' the exact same areas of the brain that do not satisfy the legal and linguistic definitions of pornography. --Worse, if you are a male who voluntarily abstains from pornography, the effect of these things are greatly heightened.
> 
> What am I talking about? Okay It's getting warm here (Triple digits yesterday) and the neighbor's trophy wife is going to be washing the car on Saturday mornings in a bikini composed of about nine square inches of material. If I'm indulging my gardening hobby, she's going to come over and chat, because that's the kind of lady she is.
> 
> Or if my wife and I go shopping even to a place like Costco, there's going to be a dozen or so fit women in 'yoga pants' so tight that the crevices of the body are very clearly visible. They might as well be wearing only spray paint for what is left to imagination.
> 
> Or if I look out my office window this afternoon, there's likely going to be a young lady in the backyard of the adjoining property reclining by the pool without her top. The property is pretty private so maybe she doesn't realize she can be seen. Or maybe she doesn't care. I don't know.
> 
> I'm not trying to come across as a 'dirty old man', I'm just pointing out that it's impossible to get away from everything that is visually pleasurable in a sexual way. Especially if you live in a warm climate in an affluent area.
> 
> So the question is: Given the fact that other things can become a functional equivalent of porn, what is the difference? My wife and I are in a good place right now, but if the invisible pane of glass was still between us, I know that tableaus drawn from situations like I've described above would be popping into my head in a pleasurable way.
> 
> As far as relationships are concerned, is porn always the problem in and of itself, or is it a symptom of other problems? :scratchhead:


I think many times porn is a symptom of other issues.There are always exceptions of course.

The way SO explained it and I'm paraphrasing here,was it isn't the fact that he's concerned about me getting turned on by things I see through out my day such as the hot guy jogging shirtless past my office window.It's taking it a step further and getting sexual gratification from that image.

He views porn as a tool for sexual release which is why he's fine with it outside of a relationship.In his mind if two people are in a sexually healthy and emotionally healthy relationship,their release should be each other.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Oh they covered that base by saying it doesn't matter what you see, but rather what you seek to see.

And masturbation is okay as long as you're imagining nothing... or only your wife.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls...your position for yourself is great. You won't be committed to a partner who isn't meeting up to your various standards. That is great because that way you hopefully won't end up with someone who is incompatible.

However, YOUR stance for yourself is only YOUR stance for YOURself. Why do you then try to project that for other people, their stance for themselves is stupid?

For the man who easily and willingly gives up porn because his wife isn't into it, why do you call him a puss? It has literally nothing to do with YOUR life. Why name call another man for his choices?

I'm all for compatibility. I also know that lots of women like porn and/or have no problem with their man watching it. I'm all for these couples doing it if it works in their relationship.

What I'm not down with is when a couple are not compatible and then people get hurt because one or both won't stop doing hurtful behaviors....and *I* don't get to decide for anyone else what is hurtful to them. And neither do you.

Why can't you just be secure in your own choice for yourself without bashing the choices of others?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Kobo said:


> a subdivision gangbang.


What? You're watching porn and don't try to get your wife to do this?? Gah, what's the point then? 

Maybe if you quit you can get in on the 10 minute orgasms.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't need you to support my position. My position is supported by research which says most couples don't have the sex lives you two are describing. Every survey of sexual behaviors in marriage you can find supports my position. Even if this whole forum was like you, I still wouldn't be sweating in comparison to my tens of thousands surveyed.
> 
> According to the Kinsey Institute, whose numbers I think most here will readily accept:
> 
> 13% of married couples report having sex just a few times per YEAR.
> 45% reported a few times per MONTH.
> 34% reported having sex 2-3 times per WEEK.
> 7% reported 4 or more times per week.
> 
> The vast majority of sex is also run of the mill missionary doldrum, not stripper poles and always available midnight BJs. As just one example of female sexual control, less than 10% of couples engage in bdsm acts any more than a couple times a YEAR, while 30% of married males were interested in it. Why the mismatch of desire and performance? Oh yeah, only 12% of women desired it. The same pattern repeats for other out of the majority sexual interests. The data imply that it is generally required that a man simply drop his sexual interests if his partner isn't interested, as opposed to the woman expanding her range of sexual activity. Its widely thought wrong to expect a woman to expand their range of sexual interest (oh no! pressure!), but perfectly acceptable to demand that men drop theirs. Gimme a break.
> 
> You can't argue with the stats. If your sex lives are really as you describe, you're way the hell out of the range of "normal." That's awesome! But not normal... which was my point.
> 
> A full 92% of married couples report having sex 3 times a week or less... and the kicker? This encompasses ALL forms of couple sex. Oral, PIV, Anal, manual stimulation, you name it. The truth is, most people... nay, the VAST majority... don't have much sex.
> 
> No there's not much room for porn in this orgy.  So again I say: insecurity and control.


Ah, yes, Kinsey Institute...the place where, I believe, they made the assertion that sexuality is fluid. I believe the premise on that one is that everyone has some, even if a relatively small amount, sexual attraction to both sexes. Sorry, I don't put much stock in what they say. If you choose to accept their word, that's fine, it's your choice.

Now, one thing I need to clarify about my own marriage. We are not "going at it like rabbits". But the fact is...we never did. Except for maybe our first week together (sexually), it averaged about 3-4 times a week. That first week was 3 times a day... but he was a teen then (we married when he was 18)  But the biggest thing is that I married a man who SHARED my position on this subject, and our drives are, and have been from the start, fairly evenly matched. Currently, yes, there has been a drop due to medications he is taking, which has affected his libido. Get this, his doctors so far have said "oh, it's just because of your depression, and the medications."... and refusing to even CONSIDER there could be something else wrong. Why would that be? My best guess is that these women are the types who believe as many described on here... women don't want men who want sex all the time. So, now that he has a male doctor, HOPEFULLY this man will see if there is something that can be fixed. 

IN THE MEANTIME, I can say with confidence that, even on days when I wasn't available or capable, he never once turned to porn. Why? Because I am more important to him than that...and he feels the same about porn as I do. Same with me... with the medical problems he is having, I COULD turn to erotica or porn or even switch on the TV at 1pm and watch Days of our Lives. But what message does that send to him? It would tell him that my own self gratification is more important than him and the boundaries WE laid down together. So, why would I do something I know upsets (or would upset) him that much? To me, it's not worth it.

So, I'm not sure if you were implying to C2W that her husband will (or is likely to) turn to porn as years go by and kids keep coming... but my point is that it doesn't always work that way. She and her husband, like my husband and I, have drives evenly matched. And, they, like we, have our boundaries set, and agreed upon...from the start. I can't say that sex won't dwindle... neither for them nor for us. But I can confidently say that, for my husband and myself, if _our_ moral boundaries stay intact, porn won't creep in, no matter how much or how little sex occurs. And that is something I can say with confidence because our boundaries are very much like those of my own parents...who celebrated 39 years of marriage in October, and have been porn free from the beginning.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Well...since spousal boredom isn't a single gender sport, what's the woman's excuse?
> 
> Because since they are so 'evolved' as to only care about character unlike us visual mouth breathing men...well...my CHARACTER doesn't get saggy...


I was drawing conclusions about the post(er) I referred to, not all men as a collective everywhere. But when people start saying things women my age I now find unattractive, yes - I have to wonder if watching all the naked, nubile barely legals has something to do with the changing perceptions for women within their own age range. Could that perception be way off - of course. But its the idea that comes to my mind. 

Which is the direct opposite of what other posters have said (that their age preference has gone up as their own age has increased) so - obviously, my conclusion does not indeed apply to everyone, or even every man who has posted in this thread. So - no my conclusion didn't apply to everyone. 

As to what's up with "spousal boredom" - I'm the wrong person to provide any kind of insight - I'm 29 and I've been married 5 years. I'm not "bored" with my husband - so, any insight I'd provide here would be purely a guess based on nothing besides conclusions based on other's posts. 

And - I guess I'm not in the majority either, we also apparently have more sex than average, at least according to DvlsAdvc8's pasted study. So - that no doubt colors my idea about this topic. I'm not only having sex once a month or once a year. I guess if I was, and I was that LD or uninterested, perhaps my ideas would change - perhaps dramatically. But - as that's not my situation, then - I can't really base my feelings about the topic on a vastly different situation. My feelings about the situation apply to my relationship and what I'd feel if my husband did certain actions. I don't expect my feelings on the topic to influence anyone else's relationship or feelings, everyone has their own boundaries, needs, and expectations. 

However, I can still be hurt by some of the inferences and implications that seem to go hand in hand with this topic. Like implying that when a woman has a preference or boundary that someone else doesn't accept as reasonable as it isn't -their- boundary, all of the sudden they are insecure, excessively needy, and controlling.


----------



## JCD

Brief thread jack which may actually be germane.

I shall name it:

*A DILDO TOO FAR*

I think it was in Slate, Salon or the HuffPo (not one of my usual Internet hangs) and this brisk perky wonderfully independent young lady who, while she didn't Ned a husband, had a perfectly satisfactory LTR boyfriend.

Perky had a hobby: sex toys. She owned STUNNING numbers of dildos. One of her all time favorites was the Hitachi Magic Wand.

Now...in the normal course of events, boy toy didn't have a problem with ANY of her stuff.

BUT...one thing the Magic Wand ISN'T is small. She felt it was too cumbersome and embarrassing to have to lug back and forth between the two apartments.

So...she decided to buy one for HIS apartment.

Boy toy threw a hissy.

And her reaction was to suddenly question exactly how 'modern' 'liberal' and 'noncontrolling' this guy was. Why was HE so insecure?

How is this the same?

How is it different?

Since I'm putting this up, I'll take the low hanging fruit. Judy Juggs on a screen is NOT physically touching me, and no man alive can outlast a machine.

Carry on, though I'm pretty close to stepping out of this one.


----------



## Kobo

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't need you to support my position. My position is supported by research which says most couples don't have the sex lives you two are describing. Every survey of sexual behaviors in marriage you can find supports my position. Even if this whole forum was like you, I still wouldn't be sweating in comparison to my tens of thousands surveyed.
> 
> According to the Kinsey Institute, whose numbers I think most here will readily accept:
> 
> 13% of married couples report having sex just a few times per YEAR.
> 45% reported a few times per MONTH.
> 34% reported having sex 2-3 times per WEEK.
> 7% reported 4 or more times per week.
> 
> The vast majority of sex is also run of the mill missionary doldrum, not stripper poles and always available midnight BJs. As just one example of female sexual control, less than 10% of couples engage in bdsm acts any more than a couple times a YEAR, while 30% of married males were interested in it. Why the mismatch of desire and performance? Oh yeah, only 12% of women desired it. The same pattern repeats for other out of the majority sexual interests. The data imply that it is generally required that a man simply drop his sexual interests if his partner isn't interested, as opposed to the woman expanding her range of sexual activity. Its widely thought wrong to expect a woman to expand their range of sexual interest (oh no! pressure!), but perfectly acceptable to demand that men drop theirs. Gimme a break.
> 
> You can't argue with the stats. If your sex lives are really as you describe, you're way the hell out of the range of "normal." That's awesome! But not normal... which was my point.
> 
> A full 92% of married couples report having sex 3 times a week or less... and the kicker? This encompasses ALL forms of couple sex. Oral, PIV, Anal, manual stimulation, you name it. The truth is, most people... nay, the VAST majority... don't have much sex.
> 
> No there's not much room for porn in this orgy.  So again I say: insecurity and control.


Obviously they didn't poll the Ladies' Lounge. Its a cornucopia of female sexual liberation over there.


----------



## Kobo

JCD said:


> Brief thread jack which may actually be germane.
> 
> I shall name it:
> 
> *A DILDO TOO FAR*
> 
> I think it was in Slate, Salon or the HuffPo (not one of my usual Internet hangs) and this brisk perky wonderfully independent young lady who, while she didn't Ned a husband, had a perfectly satisfactory LTR boyfriend.
> 
> Perky had a hobby: sex toys. She owned STUNNING numbers of dildos. One of her all time favorites was the Hitachi Magic Wand.
> 
> Now...in the normal course of events, boy toy didn't have a problem with ANY of her stuff.
> 
> BUT...one thing the Magic Wand ISN'T is small. She felt it was too cumbersome and embarrassing to have to lug back and forth between the two apartments.
> 
> So...she decided to buy one for HIS apartment.
> 
> Boy toy threw a hissy.
> 
> And her reaction was to suddenly question exactly how 'modern' 'liberal' and 'noncontrolling' this guy was. Why was HE so insecure?
> 
> How is this the same?
> 
> How is it different?
> 
> Since I'm putting this up, I'll take the low hanging fruit. Judy Juggs on a screen is NOT physically touching me, and no man alive can outlast a machine.
> 
> Carry on, though I'm pretty close to stepping out of this one.


She sounds fun. Never give up a good time because of your insecurities. I would have asked if she minds if my other ladies use it.


----------



## tacoma

JCD said:


> Since I'm putting this up, I'll take the low hanging fruit. Judy Juggs on a screen is NOT physically touching me, and no man alive can outlast a machine.


I'll have you know I've replaced two of those damned wands in the last three years.



Still working with my own original equipment.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Porn is mostly not used in my relationship (as well as toys) for one simple reason, we both are HD it wouldn't be sustainable on the whole to watch porn/masturbate and have the frequency of sex we have.
If one is away or there's a reason one of us can't get a release then porn is a easy substitute but to watch porn my husband has to by pretty pent up sexually or he won't maintain a erection watching it.


----------



## Created2Write

You know, reading this thread is starting to get to me. Maybe it's just my overly sensitive preggo feelings, but I'm choosing to step back. Dvls, for the record, I find your sarcasm and mockery highly insulting. I thought we were having a civil discussion, and you had to keep insisting that someone with my beliefs must, inevitably, be insecure and controlling. 

I wasn't trying to change your mind or anything, but it would have been nice if you at least _considered_ what I was saying without making fun of it. And then to go so far as to say that in three years, I'll be checking back in and saying that my marriage isn't anywhere near to what it is now. Why say something like that? You and I have been friends. I wish the best for you, I thought you'd wish the best for me. Guess I was wrong. 

For the record, I'm not insecure or controlling. And just because a woman has boundaries like mine doesn't mean she's insecure or controlling either. To make such an assumption is really being unfair. I also don't happen to think that everyone who views porn is automatically selfish, either. As I said, sometimes couples agree to use porn together, or at least they agree that one will use it even if the other doesn't. In such cases, I don't see an issue because no one is being pressured into accepting more than they're comfortable with. And like you said, you would never be with a girl who didn't share your view which is a wise choice. My only point was that, in a marriage where a wife _is_ loving, supportive, respectful, and 100% available to her husband sexually, I think it's selfish to put personal fantasies ahead of a spouse like _that_. If your fantasies are really that important to you, than I hope you do find a girl with similar boundaries. For my husband and I, there is no fantasy that could ever make us happier or more sexually satisfied than we are with each other. I would happily forgo all of my fantasies to be with my husband for the rest of my life. 

And even though you turned everything around to make me look selfish, I can assure I'm not. By your own posts, I'm "not the norm", and I should "clone myself", so I'm obviously very selfless sexually. My only two requirements are total sexual exclusivity, and patience with anal sex. I think that's rather generous. 

Grayson: the reason I don't see porn the same way I see country music is because, for me, porn isn't entertainment. It's made expressly for the purpose of causing arousal. Other shows, movies, books, poems can be sexually explicit, but if there weren't written with the intention of causing arousal it's not pornography. We actually learned this in my poetry class in college. We read a very sexually explicit poem and my teacher asked us, "Why isn't this considered pornography?" The answer was because it wasn't written to cause arousal, even if some who read it may become aroused. Pornography isn't made for the plot lines or the acting, it's made for the sex and the arousal. _That_ is why I can never, and will never, consider it entertainment. 

JCD(I think it was...): It's not that I don't want my husband to never be attracted to other women. I know he will be. His favorite character in Once Upon A Time is Ruby, or Red Riding Hood/the Wolf. She's super cute and feisty, and highly attractive. She doesn't _arouse_ him though, nor does he watch the show to be aroused. That's the difference. He knows I'm attracted to Henry Cavil and Chris Hemsworth. They're totally hot and have great voices. Not to mention the glorious accents. But I'm not aroused by either one, nor do I watch their movies/shows to be aroused. I actually skip the scenes in The Tudors when Henry Cavil's character is having sex with someone. (Oh, and for Grayson...it's not inconsistent at all. The Tudors has a great story, and is somewhat historically accurate - thought not totally, I have to admit - and the acting is really good. I don't watch the nudity or the sexually explicit sex scenes. I say explicit, because some of the sex scenes don't show anything at all. But, point being, it's not inconsistent.) Anyway, there is a difference between attraction and arousal. Sometimes we can even be attracted to certain traits in people, not just the people themselves. I think this is normal and healthy. What I ask for is sexual exclusivity. 

Anyway, I'm done with this conversation. I hope everyone has a nice day.


----------



## Starstarfish

I think that scenario needs clarification:

- Did he not know ahead of time she had a Magic Wand? If he knew, why did her having one at his house versus her house make a difference? How didn't he know she had it if she was lugging it back and forth? Did they discuss her sex toy usage when they got together in this LTR? I mean - if her collection was -extensive- how did it not come up before?

- No, the person on screen isn't touching you, but - just because someone isn't touching you, doesn't change all of the factors or feelings involved. If your wife had a PA where the OM never actually touched her, but there was independent masturbation going on where they both watched each other naked - would that be cheating?

If a female co-worker of yours in a porn type scenario suddenly came into the copy room and start stripping off her naughty librarian gear, and started getting hot and heavy with herself on the copy machine. Should you stay and watch and enjoy the show or would you realize that's beyond the line and leave? 

If so - is truly the only qualification that there's no actual touching? EAs are seen by many as cheating, even if there's no actual touching involved.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> However, YOUR stance for yourself is only YOUR stance for YOURself. Why do you then try to project that for other people, their stance for themselves is stupid?
> 
> For the man who easily and willingly gives up porn because his wife isn't into it, why do you call him a puss? It has literally nothing to do with YOUR life. Why name call another man for his choices?


I call it as I see it. Coercing someone's behavior as a result of one's own insecurities rather than evidence of harm IS stupid. If it were a lawsuit you'd have no standing.

Because I'm free to think that guy is a puss. He wants X, his wife him to stop but cannot show harm. She withdraws sex, so he obeys. Insecurity and control. And he's a puss. I know a few and they still don't think there's anything wrong with porn. They just do as wifey says because she has the vagina. That's pretty pathetic imo.



Faithful Wife said:


> What I'm not down with is when a couple are not compatible and then people get hurt because one or both won't stop doing hurtful behaviors....and *I* don't get to decide for anyone else what is hurtful to them. And neither do you.


Its not like the porn use is some new habit. If she had a problem with porn, she should have asked and found someone else if he affirmed. Not demand he stop sometime down the road.

No one has a right to tell someone else to stop doing something they enjoy. The monogamy of marriage is something willfully given with full awareness. I don't think very many people think this excludes porn.



Faithful Wife said:


> Why can't you just be secure in your own choice for yourself without bashing the choices of others?


Because the point of this thread was to discuss entitlement to porn. The very premise is the bashing porn use. Its a set up, and you know how I like going in guns blazing. You can't expect me to avoid criticism of others behaviors, in a thread premised on the criticism of my behavior.

Oh, its okay to say what I do is unattractive, but its bashing for me to call what they do insecure right?


----------



## Faithful Wife

There is NO ONE criticizing YOUR behavior Dvls...because you are NOT MARRIED. Yet you are criticizing others and putting down people's choices in their own marriages, UNLESS they agree with yours. Totally baffling. But whatever.

All I know is that I'm so happy to be in a happy marriage where we actually put each other's needs and wants as our priorities. It makes the sex hotter.


----------



## LongWalk

I wonder if the horses feel dehumanized by this.



> Key Features of a Breeding Dummy Mount
> 
> 1. Single pedestal
> 2. Smooth, snug, "cool" cover
> 3. Sturdy, quiet when mounted
> 4. Ample front and side clearance
> 5. Ample head room
> 6. Especially good footing
> 7. Grasping grooves or "mane"
> 8. Angled or level
> 9. Other accoutrements unnecessary
> 
> Note: Self-service or adjustable dummies typically do not meet many of these key features. Penis injuries and behavior problems are common with self-serve dummies.
> 
> Note: Extra long dummies that allow the stallion to advance up the side while thrusting have been associated with back and ejaculation problems, presumably as a result of the stallion thrusting with his back curved. Stallions should be squared up at the back of the dummy so that they don't advance up the side.
> 
> Hofmann Center Dummy Mount: Learn from Our Mistakes!
> 
> Our current dummy mount has evolved over the years. The base and barrel were originally custom-fabricated with basic dimensions as now, but with a "cut-out" groove at the left rear for the artificial vagina. A "space age indestructible" synthetic cover was held in place with metal snaps. The groove had turned out to be problematic, so was eliminated. The cover quickly became tattered. It turned out to be "hot," causing rub sores. And the metal snaps were a source of leg lacerations. It was replaced with a custom-made leather cover. In over ten years of heavy clinic and research use, there are only minor shoe cuts. Some horses still get rub sores.
> 
> Initially the dummy height was manually adjustable by sliding the base sleeve up or down on the base column and securing it with pins at one of three or four discrete heights. This required a forklift, so we rarely moved it from a tail height of 56 inches. We have recently installed a hydraulic cylinder inside the base pedestal, facilitating infinite automatic height increments between tail heights of about 48 and 64 inches. If we could further improve it, we would try some "bite" straps firmly anchored along the mid-line at the front of the barrel for stallions to grasp onto with their teeth. We would also like to find a disposable wrap for the tail portion of the barrel that could be changed between stallions. The materials we have tried so far were off-putting to some stallions.
> 
> Hofmann Center Dummy Mount
> 
> Barrel
> Custom made steel tank, ½ inch steel, filled with sand to deaden hollow sound
> Girth -68 inches (20 inches diameter) with padding and cover
> Length shoulder to tail - 72 inches with padding and cover
> 
> Pedestal
> Rectangular (8 X 12 inches) base set three feet into concrete with sleeve welded to barrel; hydraulic cylinder with electric pump with infinite stops between 48 and 64". Best single height for QH, TB, STB, Arabian, Warmblood: 56"
> 
> Cover
> Custom-made by Smucker Harness Shop, Narvon, PA from ¼ inch cowhide fitted tightly over 3 inches deep dense foam padding; seams run along the dorsal and ventral midlines, to minimize leg abrasion. End seams smooth to minimize knee and penile abrasions and to facilitate cleaning.
> 
> Starting a Stallion on a Dummy Mount
> 
> *Some stallions mount a dummy when initially presented, sometimes even without a mare in the vicinity. So it is worth trying your stallion without a mare just in case he is one of the few who take to the dummy immediately*. Other stallions require more stimulation and some training. Except for stallions with seriously inadequate libido or physical disability, almost all stallions can learn to mount a dummy mount of appropriate design, no matter what their previous breeding experience may have been. Some may take several training sessions lasting ten to twenty minutes each.
> 
> Training
> 
> There is no one correct way to introduce or train a stallion to a dummy mount. The mare and stallion handling team are critical to the success of this training. The best results can be expected with positive encouragement of the stallion, creative positioning and movement of the stallion and mare, and patience.
> 
> Our usual procedure is to progress through the following attempts until success is achieved. Each will be tried several times before going to the next. Training sessions continue for up to 30 minutes or so, as long as the stallion's interest can be maintained. Progress is typically smoother if each session is ended on a positive note, before people and the stallion become frustrated.
> 
> 1. Present the stallion to the dummy mount without a mare, on the chance that he is one who will mount immediately, and also to allow him to investigate the dummy and surround.
> 2. Stimulate the stallion to readiness to mount using a stimulus mare at a short distance from the dummy; when he seems ready to mount direct the stallion to the dummy.
> 3. Place the mare alongside the dummy and tease the stallion across the rear of the dummy, encouraging him to mount the dummy.
> 4. Allow the stallion to mount the mare for semen collection a few times near the dummy to get the stallion comfortable with breeding in that location, then remove the mare and try as in steps 1 or 2 above. Some stallions are quick to learn that if they don't mount the dummy you will eventually let them mount the mare.
> 5. Lead the mare with the stallion following/teasing from behind the dummy, diverting the mare at the last moment to the side and bumping the stallion's chest into the rear of the dummy.
> 
> Training Tips
> 
> · Estrous mare urine applied to the dummy mount can encourage a stallion to mount.
> 
> · Bumping the stallion's chest against the dummy may stimulate a "reflex mount."
> 
> · Impairing the stallion's vision with blinkers or blinders can sometimes facilitate mounting.
> 
> · If the stallion seems ready to mount, but hesitates, stimulate the penis by placing the artificial vagina or warm compresses on the glans while the stallion is teasing.
> 
> · Getting the artificial vagina in place as calmly and quickly as possible can keep the disorganized stallion mounted and thrusting.
> 
> · The first couple mounts may be awkward and poorly oriented, but one ejaculation occurs, subsequent mounts are usually much improved.
> 
> · Once the stallion has successfully mounted and ejaculated on the dummy a few times, the mare or other special procedures used during training may be gradually eliminated.
> 
> · Take care not to remove the artificial vagina abruptly while the glans penis is flared or to rush the stallion to dismount after ejaculation.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Maricha75 said:


> Ah, yes, Kinsey Institute...the place where, I believe, they made the assertion that sexuality is fluid. I believe the premise on that one is that everyone has some, even if a relatively small amount, sexual attraction to both sexes. Sorry, I don't put much stock in what they say. If you choose to accept their word, that's fine, it's your choice.


lmfao at attacking the credibility of Kinsey. Nice one. That said, this is a survey. Stats. Analysis is mine. They just lie right? Because there's a huge incentive to lie about sexuality statistics.




Maricha75 said:


> he feels the same about porn as I do


Awesome! That doesn't make it rational. But all that matters is that you agree. 



Maricha75 said:


> So, I'm not sure if you were implying to C2W that her husband will (or is likely to) turn to porn as years go by and kids keep coming... but my point is that it doesn't always work that way. She and her husband, like my husband and I, have drives evenly matched. And, they, like we, have our boundaries set, and agreed upon...from the start. I can't say that sex won't dwindle... neither for them nor for us. But I can confidently say that, for my husband and myself, if _our_ moral boundaries stay intact, porn won't creep in, no matter how much or how little sex occurs. And that is something I can say with confidence because our boundaries are very much like those of my own parents...who celebrated 39 years of marriage in October, and have been porn free from the beginning.


I wasn't implying he would go to porn at all. I sense a religious issue with them anyway. My point was only that "always available" sex and frequency are not the norm... and tend to decline with children, age and time together.

So when that happens, as its likely to, they might not be getting off to porn to satisfy their needs; likely they just go without a lot more often. If that's more satisfying and "happier" than getting off to porn... more power to them.

Everyone thinks they're still going to be screwing like rabbits down the road - I know I did!! Reality tells a bit of a different story.


----------



## Starstarfish

That's a very strange totally random tangent, but - isn't the purpose of artificial mounting ultimately for breeding horses? Whether to collect a specimen or to prepare them for properly mating with a real mare? 

And - I think this thread, though it did last a long time, considering the topic, is starting to devolve.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"Everyone thinks they're still going to be screwing like rabbits down the road - I know I did!! Reality tells a bit of a different story."

Only YOUR reality told a different story, but somehow you think others have the same reality as you did.

I'm in my 10th year and not once have I ever turned my husband down for sex. Nor is there any slow down. Also we don't masterbate, unless it is mutual. We also have lists of sexual goals we are working toward together, and a monthly budget for sex clothes, accessories and play things.

You simply want to believe that sex is scarce and is something men have to chase after and beg for because that was your experience in marriage. Sucked to be you, for sure....but contrary to what you think, not everyone will be in sucky marriages like you were. It is called finding compatibility.


----------



## LongWalk

Starstarfish, maybe it is time this thread went zombie. But here is an exchange by you that is worth re-quoting. Neither side is wrong.



> Quote:
> But even now I notice there are fewer and fewer women my age that turn me on by appearance alone. I wonder if that element gets lost and all you have left is anticipation of physical sensation. Hopefully its not like the last woman in her 30s I dated described of her ex husband - he could only get hard by physical touch - HJ/BJ.
> Quote:
> I'm just saying, right now, I can't see how visual sex appeal is retained as skin wrinkles, boobs sag, a$$es and waistlines grow, and spots appear. But hey, thunder said his taste evolved upwards with his age... so maybe it stays sexy, whatever it is.
> I've just got to say that I think that the potential for a long-term relationship that lasts into that age range sounds spotty at best with that mentality. So - rather than growing closer to the wive sexually and emotionally over time, eventually you predict she just won't turn you on at all. With her sagging boobs and sagging rear. Are you going to tell a potential wife that ahead of time - PS, as we get older, I'll only need porn more, as I totally know when you get old you'll totally turn me off.
> 
> I'm sure that will go over really well.
> 
> And - if erections can only come through direct visual stimuli - when do men always fear a pop-a-boner during a business meeting? Does their balding, overweight boss secretly turn them on? Or is there more to it than that?
> 
> Also the reason why second wives are often younger than the first is at the time isn't likely just about sex appeal, but the fact that the man is now settled enough and rich enough to elicit that attention. When he was 20 himself and working at Taco Bell, that hot thing on his arm likely wouldn't have sneezed on him.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> There is NO ONE criticizing YOUR behavior Dvls...because you are NOT MARRIED. Yet you are criticizing others and putting down people's choices in their own marriages, UNLESS they agree with yours. Totally baffling. But whatever.
> 
> All I know is that I'm so happy to be in a happy marriage where we actually put each other's needs and wants as our priorities. It makes the sex hotter.


Sorry but mocking and someone else and dismissing the views because they have a different view than yourself is what I view as insecurity. Continence to me is someone who says 'I don't have the same views as you for my relationship but live and let live'.


----------



## LongWalk

Starstarfish said:


> That's a very strange totally random tangent, but - isn't the purpose of artificial mounting ultimately for breeding horses? Whether to collect a specimen or to prepare them for properly mating with a real mare?


They do not let the breeding stallion have intercourse with the mare. She is just there to stimulate his imagination. One can wonder if a stud used to the artificial mount would chose the live mare if given the choice.

What would you hope?

When I was a boy certain passages of Lady Chatterley's Lover were amazing. Hard to believe no one was entitled to read it. DH Lawrence would have hated modern porn.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> "Everyone thinks they're still going to be screwing like rabbits down the road - I know I did!! Reality tells a bit of a different story."
> 
> Only YOUR reality told a different story, but somehow you think others have the same reality as you did.
> 
> I'm in my 10th year and not once have I ever turned my husband down for sex. Nor is there any slow down. Also we don't masterbate, unless it is mutual. We also have lists of sexual goals we are working toward together, and a monthly budget for sex clothes, accessories and play things.
> 
> You simply want to believe that sex is scarce and is something men have to chase after and beg for because that was your experience in marriage. Sucked to be you, for sure....but contrary to what you think, not everyone will be in sucky marriages like you were. It is called finding compatibility.


Going to my grandparent's house when I was younger I know they were screwing like rabbits (so wish I didn't at the time but kind off glad I know now).
Wasn't really suprising she had 18 kids lol (poor woman).
Same with my parents and a month after giving birth my sex life went mental. 
I guess it depends on what reality you've seen.


----------



## Grayson

Created2Write said:


> Grayson: the reason I don't see porn the same way I see country music is because, for me, porn isn't entertainment. It's made expressly for the purpose of causing arousal. Other shows, movies, books, poems can be sexually explicit, but if there weren't written with the intention of causing arousal it's not pornography. We actually learned this in my poetry class in college. We read a very sexually explicit poem and my teacher asked us, "Why isn't this considered pornography?" The answer was because it wasn't written to cause arousal, even if some who read it may become aroused. Pornography isn't made for the plot lines or the acting, it's made for the sex and the arousal. _That_ is why I can never, and will never, consider it entertainment.


While I can agree that arousal is the _primary_ purpose, I can't agree it's the only purpose. Even if we discount the notion that arousal is entertaining (and I find that notion hard to discount), there must be some entertainment value beyond arousal, or the "mainstream" productions wouldn't bother with storylines, etc. Some of the most popular on the market right now are parodies of TV shows and movies, which by their nature rely on both sex and story for their entertainment purposes. (Side note: there was a recent article on a comics site that pointed out that, strangely enough, the costume in the recent Wonder Woman porn parody happens to have the most faithful and accurate adaptation of the character's costume to live action...even more so than Lynda Carter's. But I digress....)

Meanwhile, along your same thought processes, I see no redeeming qualities in country "music." It's a soundtrack designed to facilitate getting plastered in a ******* bar and hooking up with a stranger who's probably married. So, I have an equally fair claim to say that I can never consider country music to be "entertainment" as you have to say the same about porn. Or is the reality that, just because *I'm* not entertained by it, that doesn't mean the term can't apply?



> JCD(I think it was...): It's not that I don't want my husband to never be attracted to other women. I know he will be. His favorite character in Once Upon A Time is Ruby, or Red Riding Hood/the Wolf. She's super cute and feisty, and highly attractive. She doesn't _arouse_ him though, nor does he watch the show to be aroused. That's the difference. He knows I'm attracted to Henry Cavil and Chris Hemsworth. They're totally hot and have great voices. Not to mention the glorious accents. But I'm not aroused by either one, nor do I watch their movies/shows to be aroused. I actually skip the scenes in The Tudors when Henry Cavil's character is having sex with someone.* (Oh, and for Grayson...it's not inconsistent at all. The Tudors has a great story, and is somewhat historically accurate - thought not totally, I have to admit - and the acting is really good. I don't watch the nudity or the sexually explicit sex scenes. I say explicit, because some of the sex scenes don't show anything at all. But, point being, it's not inconsistent.)* Anyway, there is a difference between attraction and arousal. Sometimes we can even be attracted to certain traits in people, not just the people themselves. I think this is normal and healthy. What I ask for is sexual exclusivity.


Considering I said it *was* consistent (if confusing that you'd willingly avoid part of the narrative), I'm not sure why you felt the need to point this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not so... I think everyone is in agreement that what you describe your husband doing is compulsive, abusive and harmful.
> 
> I know women who are hurt by their men coming out to guys night once a week instead of staying home with them. I'm sorry, but some of these sorts of "hurt" are just insecure, excessively needy, controlling women.
> 
> When faced with such an absurdity, I'm going to move on, not comfort the crazy (your situation would be analogous to one of these guys spending every night out drinking - an obvious problem; so no, I'm not calling you crazy). I like ending a really good night partying by hitting up a strip club - usually WITH my girl by my side... if she has a problem with that and legitimately thinks I want a stripper more than her, that's a problem, and she's got to go. She's too uptight and I don't want her. That kind of insecurity is horribly unattractive to me. I'd be laughing my a$$ off with her at a male strip club. The idea that this douchey college drop out with his giant dong tucked into a speedo, and showing off his abs and pecs is a threat doesn't even cross my mind.
> 
> Side note: Funny thing about strip clubs... most men don't go for the girls. Strippers usually aren't the cream of the crop. We go for the loose, crazy, fun... no sh*t given atmosphere.
> 
> But you know what? If she has a problem with me getting a lap dance, I don't get a lap dance. There's an enormous difference between faux sex in my lap and looking. The mindset that looking is hurtful is just absurd. Everyone bust out the burkas at the beach... don't want any guys getting his jollies watching the babes in bikinis. He might be storing that imagery for later use in the shower because wifey forbids porn and he's a puss.
> 
> Its my experience that controlling insecurities like these express themselves in a lot of other areas as well.


You keep mentioning the word insecurity. I've repeated a few times I am not insecure. I'm pretty sharp when I've had my 8 hours and I know that porn does not equal real life. A porn actress doesn't enjoy sex as much as I do. A porn actress wouldn't let my husband do the things I allow him to do to my body. He'll never find another lover like me (according to this forum, at least.)

To dismiss real and genuine hurt is...not cool. I don't see people dismissing the hurt YOU felt. They validated it. Why are you not affording ME the same courtesy? I am as neglected and ignored in my marriage as you were. Only because HIS redirection happens to be something that you evidently cannot live without, you are telling me I am insecure and a control freak.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> You keep mentioning the word insecurity. I've repeated a few times I am not insecure. I'm pretty sharp when I've had my 8 hours and I know that porn does not equal real life. A porn actress doesn't enjoy sex as much as I do. A porn actress wouldn't let my husband do the things I allow him to do to my body. He'll never find another lover like me (according to this forum, at least.)
> 
> To dismiss real and genuine hurt is...not cool. I don't see people dismissing the hurt YOU felt. They validated it. Why are you not affording ME the same courtesy? I am as neglected and ignored in my marriage as you were. Only because HIS redirection happens to be something that you evidently cannot live without, you are telling me I am insecure and a control freak.


Play fair, now, Annie.

Even Dvl has said several times that your specific circumstance is one in which you husband is clearly engaging in behavior that's damaging the relationship. He can hold this position while simultaneously speaking to the broader issue as he sees it. That broader view may not apply to all situations, but that doesn't make holding both of those views (one in general, one regarding a specific case) mutually exclusive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> You know, reading this thread is starting to get to me. Maybe it's just my overly sensitive preggo feelings, but I'm choosing to step back. Dvls, for the record, I find your sarcasm and mockery highly insulting. I thought we were having a civil discussion, and you had to keep insisting that someone with my beliefs must, inevitably, be insecure and controlling.


Civil discussion pretty much ends when I'm called unattractive. You can't help feeling that someone who watches porn is unattractive, I can't help feeling that someone with your stance on porn is insecure and controlling.



Created2Write said:


> I wasn't trying to change your mind or anything, but it would have been nice if you at least _considered_ what I was saying without making fun of it. And then to go so far as to say that in three years, I'll be checking back in and saying that my marriage isn't anywhere near to what it is now. Why say something like that? You and I have been friends. I wish the best for you, I thought you'd wish the best for me. Guess I was wrong.


No one is going to change anyone's mind in a thread like this. Minds don't change on these subjects. These are always flame fests. The very set up of the OP was offensive imo. "entitled to porn"?? Give me a break.

I did not say you will check back and say your marriage isn't what it is now. I said ask you in 3 years. Apparently, all the women here have wild sex lives even through children and aging. Maybe you'll be one of them.

I'm happy you and hubby totally agree on porn, have a great sex life and are committed to keeping it going down the road.

You think I'm unattractive for use of porn and ardent upholding of rights to my own body and eyes. I think you are insecure and controlling for your position on porn and fantasy. These are both truths from our relative perspectives. Mine is insulting and the yours is not? Where is Always Alone when you need a double standard declared?

I do wish the best for you.



Created2Write said:


> My only point was that, in a marriage where a wife _is_ loving, supportive, respectful, and 100% available to her husband sexually, I think it's selfish to put personal fantasies ahead of a spouse like _that_. If your fantasies are really that important to you, than I hope you do find a girl with similar boundaries. For my husband and I, there is no fantasy that could ever make us happier or more sexually satisfied than we are with each other. I would happily forgo all of my fantasies to be with my husband for the rest of my life.


You say "ahead", but there's no reason to view it as being "ahead of the spouse". As I've said, there is no great claim to this position than there is that its selfish to make one's spouse deny their fantasy.

What you describe is very "big brother" and controlling imo... "Don't fantasize about anyone else", as you said re: masturbation, is nothing more than declaring thought crime.



Created2Write said:


> And even though you turned everything around to make me look selfish, I can assure I'm not. By your own posts, I'm "not the norm", and I should "clone myself", so I'm obviously very selfless sexually. My only two requirements are total sexual exclusivity, and patience with anal sex. I think that's rather generous.


Well, I am a master debator. Its why I need my porn. 

In all seriousness, I was not calling you selfish. I was trying to get you to see that its all a matter of perspective. To the one "hurt" by their partners viewing porn, their partner is being selfish. To the one who has been ordered to deny their fantasy life for their partner's benefit, their partner is being selfish.

You're not the norm, and I wish more women were as sexual as you describe. Many will not sext, take pics, do vids, or dance on poles. Hey, you're offered up the always available no strings BJ... of course you're generous! I don't know that I totally buy it, but its definitely generous.



Created2Write said:


> the reason I don't see porn the same way I see country music is because, for me, porn isn't entertainment.


Put me firmly in the entertainment category.

Romance is to crying as comedy is to laughter as porn is to arousal.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I call it as I see it. Coercing someone's behavior as a result of one's own insecurities rather than evidence of harm IS stupid. If it were a lawsuit you'd have no standing.
> 
> Because I'm free to think that guy is a puss. He wants X, his wife him to stop but cannot show harm. She withdraws sex, so he obeys. Insecurity and control. And he's a puss. I know a few and they still don't think there's anything wrong with porn. They just do as wifey says because she has the vagina. *That's pretty pathetic imo.*


Yes, in your opinion. How do THEY feel about it? Do they feel they are pathetic? Or do they feel their wife is MORE important to them than any gratification they could get from porn usage?

Also, a few of us, at least, have said we don't, and never have, coerce our men's behaviors. And yet, you still seem to believe that we are insecure and controlling about it. Why is it so impossible to believe that there are men who feel the same way WE do about porn?



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its not like the porn use is some new habit. If she had a problem with porn, she should have asked and found someone else if he affirmed. Not demand he stop sometime down the road.


And, on the flip side, he shouldn't have just assumed that she was ok with it because she never brought it up. Why couldn't he have just said "Hey, what do you think of men who occasionally view porn?" It would easily open the discussion... and maybe ended it too lol. But still, why is it only HER responsibility to bring it up? If he is that adamant that he doesn't want to let go of those pixels, no matter what anyone else thinks, don't you think it would be an important subject for HIM to bring up as well?



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No one has a right to tell someone else to stop doing something they enjoy. The monogamy of marriage is something willfully given with full awareness. I don't think very many people think this excludes porn.


You might be surprised. But, I know that no matter what anyone says to the contrary, you won't agree. And that's fine...for YOU. It doesn't make anyone else's position any less valid than your own. 



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Because the point of this thread was to discuss entitlement to porn. The very premise is the bashing porn use. Its a set up, and you know how I like going in guns blazing. *You can't expect me to avoid criticism of others behaviors, in a thread premised on the criticism of my behavior*.


Well, yes, you could avoid it... just like everyone else could. It's a choice you (and the rest of us) made, but we each could certainly have avoided posting.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Oh, its okay to say what I do is unattractive, but its bashing for me to call what they do insecure right?


I'd say it's more about the attitude than what you do. You stated that you really don't care how your SO would feel about it...it's your body and you will do whatever you want, whether she likes it or not... THAT is what we have said is unattractive. We have consistently said that if it works for both, cool. But for EITHER to say "I don't care how you feel about it, I'm doing whatever I want." is not ok, to us. Again, we have been consistent about it, but you repeatedly say we are insecure or controlling because our husbands choose not to use porn? AND we've even given examples of how we also take their own feelings into account with our choices of viewing/reading material. We don't just say to get over it because we like something. So, no, it's not the activity. It's the ATTITUDE attached to it.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Faithful Wife said:


> "Everyone thinks they're still going to be screwing like rabbits down the road - I know I did!! Reality tells a bit of a different story."
> 
> Only YOUR reality told a different story, but somehow you think others have the same reality as you did.
> 
> I'm in my 10th year and not once have I ever turned my husband down for sex. Nor is there any slow down. Also we don't masterbate, unless it is mutual. We also have lists of sexual goals we are working toward together, and a monthly budget for sex clothes, accessories and play things.
> 
> You simply want to believe that sex is scarce and is something men have to chase after and beg for because that was your experience in marriage. Sucked to be you, for sure....but contrary to what you think, not everyone will be in sucky marriages like you were. It is called finding compatibility.


No, that's not what he's done. He has used anecdotal evidence AND statistical surveys to express his point that what you are suggesting is the norm simply is not. You use anecdotal evidence only, along with a few others on the board with the same. 

I don't see how he was talked to C2W as insulting to her. Quite frankly, at 4 years in and no kids (congrats BTW if you're still reading), plenty of marriages still look just like hers. I don't WISH that their sex life trail off, I certainly HOPE for her and his sake that they continue enjoying each other as they currently do, and I know that it is _possible_. However, it is probable that this will not be the case. 

Again, you can't take a few ladies who have OUTSTANDING views on sexuality in the marriages as anything close to conclusive evidence that most marriages out there have the same. As he pointed out numerous times, cruise the REST of TAM and see how many men are out there saying they never get it. And we can blame all the reasoning in the world on why they don't get it (such as not deserving it). 

I do feel that the thread, and numerous posters in it, bash in general at porn use because they choose not to have it in their lives. I'm a bit thicker skinned than to say I'm insulted by it, but certainly learn to get what you give. 

C2W... one thing that sticks with me is your insistence that attraction does not equal arousal. And yet you yourself use the term "hot" to describe Chris Hemsworth, which to me directly denotes arousal ("he gets me hot" - the temperature rise being from body change from arousal). You can say you just admire him like a nice Mona Lisa... and many will just roll their eyes. We are not you, however, so can never "know". Not focusing or continuing the arousal is another thing entirely that I could find more authentic. 

Bottom line most of the extremists here have been identified. So has several wonderful middle of the road folks, who understand compromise particularly in light of extreme "hot button" issues. Bravo to all! 

I have shared some deeply painful things to me: I understand the position of "nothing but me". The problem I have with it is I have no intention of forcing/coercing my spouse into changing who she is/what she likes. If I am not compatible with it then I will act accordingly. 

In cases like C2W's (I'm NOT saying it IS the case with her's, BTW), there are many men who would agree to such an arrangement at the outset. Why wouldn't they, if her sex life is as described? From another standpoint, who gets with someone and then takes the stance that their porn viewing is something they will leave the SO for ('cept you Dvl!!!). Especially if brought up by the SO in such a context as
"this is unacceptable to me, what do you think" ::fierce gaze::
"uh, absolutely, I agre, I think its deplorable" ::innocent face::
"awww, so we're compatible" ::doe eyes::
Then years down the road, tired from multiple kids, housework, maybe a job, and the guys incessant sexual needs, she finally needs a bit of a break. Suddenly, things look a little different.

Culturally, as so many on this thread have exemplified, there is a lot of negativity surrounding use of porn. As noted, the premise of the OP question seemed more rhetorical and bashing of porn. It is great that he has found better living through dropping porn. Bravo! I applaud you! However, having been one with some SERIOUS negative emotions about porn viewing a use, can't find it in me to condemn the porn. Not because I need it/use it (I watch with the wife, my "solo" time is shower only - and no waterproof tvs for me....). But because I don't fault the tools. 

I think it has been made clear that there are certainly exceptions when heavy use/true addiction is involved. Some of those cases are in evidence here. Again: the addictive personality is NOT the fault of the porn, just as a gambler or drunk is not caused by the alcohol or the casino. Is it 100% a legitimate reason to leave a relationship, if it crosses the boundaries you have set for yourself? YES YES YES. But might someone not feel very valued if because they went to the internet instead of the "spank bank" for their erotic material, you're going to kick them to the curb? Does that not sound just a little bit uncompassionate?


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> Play fair, now, Annie.
> 
> Even Dvl has said several times that your specific circumstance is one in which you husband is clearly engaging in behavior that's damaging the relationship. He can hold this position while simultaneously speaking to the broader issue as he sees it. That broader view may not apply to all situations, but that doesn't make holding both of those views (one in general, one regarding a specific case) mutually exclusive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I always play fair! Why does everyone dismiss my situation? If my big, strong, gun toting, ex-Army, straight edge husband can have fallen this far down the rabbit hole, anyone can.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> "Everyone thinks they're still going to be screwing like rabbits down the road - I know I did!! Reality tells a bit of a different story."
> 
> Only YOUR reality told a different story, but somehow you think others have the same reality as you did.


False. The reality of sexual research tells a different story. 

YOUR reality might be one of rabbits still. Its funny, you keep on accusing me of that which you do... even while you're actually doing it.

But hey, I can see you like this approach - as if to land a jab about my married sex life and bring my arrogance down a notch. That is the goal of the other jabs at my sex life and manhood in the past no? 

You're swinging and missing. The basis for my position is the resarch. That my situation matched it is anecdotal.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> lmfao at attacking the credibility of Kinsey. Nice one. That said, this is a survey. Stats. Analysis is mine. They just lie right? Because there's a huge incentive to lie about sexuality statistics.


Are you kidding me? People lie on surveys ALL the time! I am a member of a few sites which offers surveys to complete, for various companies/organizations. I can't even count how many surveys I have taken, myself, which seemed familiar at first, but I wasn't certain, so I continued... After submitting, I realized I had taken the EXACT SAME SURVEY a few weeks ago. So, yes, survey results get skewed quite often. Especially when they are paid surveys. Before you ask, yes, there have been sexual/relationship surveys on these sites as well lol.

As for Kinsey... yes, I do question the credibility. When I only heard of that place a couple months ago, on here, I absolutely will question it. And I question things that don't match my own experience. Everyone does that. Even you. :rofl:




DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Awesome! That doesn't make it rational. But all that matters is that you agree.


Heh right back at you...doesn't mean YOUR position is rational either.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> You keep mentioning the word insecurity. I've repeated a few times I am not insecure. I'm pretty sharp when I've had my 8 hours and I know that porn does not equal real life. A porn actress doesn't enjoy sex as much as I do. A porn actress wouldn't let my husband do the things I allow him to do to my body. He'll never find another lover like me (according to this forum, at least.)
> 
> To dismiss real and genuine hurt is...not cool. I don't see people dismissing the hurt YOU felt. They validated it. Why are you not affording ME the same courtesy? I am as neglected and ignored in my marriage as you were. Only because HIS redirection happens to be something that you evidently cannot live without, you are telling me I am insecure and a control freak.


How many times do I have to tell you that I think what your husband does is wrong?

When your husband has only an occasional porn habit that doesn't result in neglect and you're all hurt, THEN I'll dismiss you too on the basis of insecurity. Wait your turn... I don't think you're insecure. I think your hubby has a problem with compulsive behavior. I keep saying so.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Maricha75 said:


> As for Kinsey... yes, I do question the credibility. When I only heard of that place a couple months ago, on here, I absolutely will question it. And I question things that don't match my own experience. Everyone does that. Even you. :rofl:


I'm sorry you haven't heard of it. Is probably the foremost institute of sexual studies. Its not just some magazine survey. Kinsey is REAL. SCIENTIFIC. PEER REVIEWED. STUDY. by experts in human sexuality.


----------



## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm sorry you haven't heard of it. Is probably the foremost institute of sexual studies. Its not just some magazine survey. Kinsey is REAL. SCIENTIFIC. PEER REVIEWED. STUDY. by experts in human sexuality.


And, as I said previously, they maintain the position that everyone is attracted to both sexes, even a tiny bit... and that is something I completely disagree with. So, in questioning the validity of one thing they say, I cannot, personally, accept everything they say because they are the "experts".


----------



## AnnieAsh

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> How many times do I have to tell you that I think what your husband does is wrong?
> 
> When your husband has only an occasional porn habit that doesn't result in neglect and you're all hurt, THEN I'll dismiss you too on the basis of insecurity. Wait your turn... I don't think you're insecure. I think your hubby has a problem with compulsive behavior. I keep saying so.


My point is if what MY husband is doing is wrong how many other women have been dismissed by the male posters as insecure when that was not the case? 

All I am asking of (general) you is that you think twice before you start throwing that word out there.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Maricha75 said:


> And, as I said previously, they maintain the position that everyone is attracted to both sexes, even a tiny bit... and that is something I completely disagree with. So, in questioning the validity of one thing they say, I cannot, personally, accept everything they say because they are the "experts".


Except that you are proffering something that they say is "based" on their research as a reason to reject everything that they say/do. They can support a viewpoint not 100% factual. Their SCIENCE, however, is not based on their point of view. The numbers reported are those that are given to them, not made up out of thin air. If you refuse to acknowledge any scientific numbers, then I suppose we should make all choices based on our feelings alone. That will go well...


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I think there should be more importance placed on helping your partner understand you and also how to understand your partner.It's especially important for the porn issue since it's such a polarizing topic.
-how do we address the porn issue with our partner?
-how can we get them to understand why we're using it or why we're against using it?
-is porn use an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
-are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you viewing porn?
-are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop using porn?
-HOW much porn are you ok with your partner using if any?
-Is your issue with the type of porn viewed or porn as a whole?

These are ALL valuable pieces of information that should be discussed.Instead of biting each other and flaming each other,we need to figure out how to address these tough topics with our partners in a way that doesn't end in a shouting match or tears shed.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> There is NO ONE criticizing YOUR behavior Dvls...because you are NOT MARRIED. Yet you are criticizing others and putting down people's choices in their own marriages, UNLESS they agree with yours. Totally baffling. But whatever.
> 
> All I know is that I'm so happy to be in a happy marriage where we actually put each other's needs and wants as our priorities. It makes the sex hotter.


I think the no porn thing is insecure and controlling. They think porn is unattractive, hurtful and selfish.

It goes both ways lady.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> My point is if what MY husband is doing is wrong how many other women have been dismissed by the male posters as insecure when that was not the case?
> 
> All I am asking of (general) you is that you think twice before you start throwing that word out there.


Plenty, if we're talking generalisms. In sheer numbers I'm sure there are thousands, if not millions in your situation sexually. However, that isn't the majority, which I would imagine is generally what is the target when discussing issues at large. There are ALWAYS exceptions. While it is important that some be discussed, they cannot be the driving force behind the main debate because they are simply that: outliers.


----------



## ocotillo

Created2Write said:


> ....I don't see porn the same way I see country music is because, for me, porn isn't entertainment. It's made expressly for the purpose of causing arousal. Other shows, movies, books, poems can be sexually explicit, but if there weren't written with the intention of causing arousal it's not pornography. We actually learned this in my poetry class in college. We read a very sexually explicit poem and my teacher asked us, "Why isn't this considered pornography?" The answer was because it wasn't written to cause arousal, even if some who read it may become aroused. Pornography isn't made for the plot lines or the acting, it's made for the sex and the arousal. _That_ is why I can never, and will never, consider it entertainment.


I know you said you were done with this thread, but in case you're still reading, I agree with you about literary classifications. To be fair though, linguistic and legal definitions of the word don't really pivot on the intent of the author like that. Even when intent is alluded to in dictionary definitions, it is invariably with an indefinite qualifier like, "_usually_ having little or no artistic merit" or "_often_ for the purpose of sexual arousal."

Contrariwise, even when the intent of the author definitely is to deliberately titillate the audience, you can still end up with a respected work of literature. It's been a few years, but study editions of Defoe's _Moll Flanders_ made no bones about it. Mudge's _Women, Pornography and the British Novel, 1684 - 1830 _ lists Defoe right alongside Cleland and Haywood.


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> And, on the flip side, he shouldn't have just assumed that she was ok with it because she never brought it up. Why couldn't he have just said "Hey, what do you think of men who occasionally view porn?" It would easily open the discussion... and maybe ended it too lol. But still, why is it only HER responsibility to bring it up?


Generally speaking, human nature leads us to make such comments and inquiries if we see something as a negative. Silence on the subject is perceived as tacit approval.

Illustration time. (Hey! Stop rolling your eyes and groaning, "Not again!")

I go to a restaurant, and the service is good, I go about my meal, leave a decent tip and move on.

Service is a little lacking, I'll probably power through, finish my meal, leave a small tip and get out.

Service is awful, I'll ask to speak to the manager, voice my issues, and expect some sort of action on the manager's part.

It's not often that the waiter/waitress will say, "We've really screwed up for you tonight. Let me get a manager over here." (That's happened to me once.)

The same principle applies in life. If I'm partaking in ANY activity - porn, games, TV, whatever - and I'm not made aware that there's something to address, I can't address it. That restaurant manager doesn't know that the waitress ignored us for 10 minutes after being seated, spilled tea all over my kid, gotten half the table's orders wrong, ignored us some more to the point that, when my wife sent her incorrect order back, she canceled it because everyone else was almost done eating but didn't remove the meal from the ticket...unless we speak to her. If we say nothing, pay for food that was sent back, then take my wet kid and hungry wife home without saying anything, it will be assumed that we had a pleasant dining experience.



> If he is that adamant that he doesn't want to let go of those pixels, no matter what anyone else thinks, don't you think it would be an important subject for HIM to bring up as well?


In cases like we're talking about now, though, is it really a matter of "not wanting to let go," or is it "not knowing there's a need to let go?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

AnnieAsh said:


> My point is if what MY husband is doing is wrong how many other women have been dismissed by the male posters as insecure when that was not the case?
> 
> All I am asking of (general) you is that you think twice before you start throwing that word out there.


Because their husbands aren't leaving scabs and failing to give you the amount of sex you desire because they're spent from hours of porn use.

Eating a candy bar once in awhile is fine. Eating a candy bar every 10 minutes makes you a glutton.

I'm a strict follower of the doctrine of the mean. Be moderate in all things. Your husband is one end of the porn spectrum. The insecure and controlling wives who can't stomach that hubby might get off (not at your expense) once in a blue moon to pics (OR THOUGHTS!!) of naked women is the other end. Both are wrong.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

ocotillo said:


> I know you said you were done with this thread, but in case you're still reading, I agree with you about literary classifications. To be fair though, linguistic and legal definitions of the word don't really pivot on the intent of the author like that. Even when intent is alluded to in dictionary definitions, it is invariably with an indefinite qualifier like, "_usually_ having little or no artistic merit" or "_often_ for the purpose of sexual arousal."
> 
> Contrariwise, even when the intent of the author definitely is to deliberately titillate the audience, you can still end up with a respected work of literature. It's been a few years, but study editions of Defoe's _Moll Flanders_ made no bones about it. Mudge's _Women, Pornography and the British Novel, 1684 - 1830 _ lists Defoe right alongside Cleland and Haywood.


Couldn't one argue that the purpose of the author was to tape some sex to make money? The money is made because people buy it... regardless of whether or not they eventually become aroused by it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"Both are wrong."


So clearly then, who ever does not agree with you is wrong.

sigh....


----------



## Starstarfish

And here I am disappointed that no one's decided to answer whether a PA with "no touching" is okay.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> I always play fair! Why does everyone dismiss my situation? If my big, strong, gun toting, ex-Army, straight edge husband can have fallen this far down the rabbit hole, anyone can.


No one is dismissing it!

You seem to be taking ideas that are being discussed in broad, general terms and saying, "Stop saying that about me. It doesn't apply to me." And we get that. But, we're not talking about just one specific case. We're speaking to the larger picture. There will be specific situations where the general concensus (like we'll get one of THOSE on this subject ;-) ) doesn't apply. And we get that, too. But those specific cases aren't the primary focus of the discussion. That's not a slight on you, it's just what the topic is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Starstarfish said:


> And here I am disappointed that no one's decided to answer whether a PA with "no touching" is okay.


How would that be a PA?


----------



## LongWalk

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Grayson View Post
> Play fair, now, Annie.
> 
> Even Dvl has said several times that your specific circumstance is one in which you husband is clearly engaging in behavior that's damaging the relationship. He can hold this position while simultaneously speaking to the broader issue as he sees it. That broader view may not apply to all situations, but that doesn't make holding both of those views (one in general, one regarding a specific case) mutually exclusive.


Posted via Mobile Device

I always play fair! Why does everyone dismiss my situation? If my big, strong, gun toting, ex-Army, straight edge husband can have fallen this far down the rabbit hole, anyone can.


AnnieAsh said:


> I always play fair! Why does everyone dismiss my situation? If my big, strong, gun toting, ex-Army, straight edge husband can have fallen this far down the rabbit hole, anyone can.


Annie's is probably just describing a tragic reality that affects a significant percentage of people. Unpleasant to think it so, but she doesn't sound like a crank in the least.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> No one is dismissing it!
> 
> You seem to be taking ideas that are being discussed in broad, general terms and saying, "Stop saying that about me. It doesn't apply to me." And we get that. But, we're not talking about just one specific case. We're speaking to the larger picture. There will be specific situations where the general concensus (like we'll get one of THOSE on this subject ;-) ) doesn't apply. And we get that, too. But those specific cases aren't the primary focus of the discussion. That's not a slight on you, it's just what the topic is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, what I am taking issue with is this idea that to not desire porn within a relationship is somehow controlling or insecure. I object most strenuously to that. 

I could say well all dudes who watch are awful lovers! But then I'd get 5 posters jumping down my throat saying "Nu uh! Nu uh! Not me!"


----------



## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> And, as I said previously, they maintain the position that everyone is attracted to both sexes, even a tiny bit... and that is something I completely disagree with. So, in questioning the validity of one thing they say, I cannot, personally, accept everything they say because they are the "experts".


Actually, the research you're referring to (which resulted in the Kinsey scale of sexuality) doesn't say that *everyone* is attracted to both sexes, even a tiny bit. It does, however, conclude that *most* have some level - even infinitesimal - of attraction to both sexes. If it proclaimed that everyone does, there would be no reason to include the endpoints of 0 (entirely heterosexual) and 6 (entirely homosexual) on the Kinsey scale.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AnnieAsh

ET1SSJonota said:


> Plenty, if we're talking generalisms. In sheer numbers I'm sure there are thousands, if not millions in your situation sexually. However, that isn't the majority, which I would imagine is generally what is the target when discussing issues at large. There are ALWAYS exceptions. While it is important that some be discussed, they cannot be the driving force behind the main debate because they are simply that: outliers.


I'd hate to think of millions of people in my situation. It sucks. It both sucks and blows at the same time.


----------



## tacoma

Starstarfish said:


> And here I am disappointed that no one's decided to answer whether a PA with "no touching" is okay.


I would say a PA with no touching is impossible.


----------



## Grayson

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think there should be more importance placed on helping your partner understand you and also how to understand your partner.It's especially important for the porn issue since it's such a polarizing topic.
> -how do we address the porn issue with our partner?
> -how can we get them to understand why we're using it or why we're against using it?
> -is porn use an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you viewing porn?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop using porn?
> -HOW much porn are you ok with your partner using if any?
> -Is your issue with the type of porn viewed or porn as a whole?
> 
> These are ALL valuable pieces of information that should be discussed.Instead of biting each other and flaming each other,we need to figure out how to address these tough topics with our partners in a way that doesn't end in a shouting match or tears shed.


SB, haven't we already talked about the place that reasonable and realistic ideas have in this subject? ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Grayson said:


> SB, haven't we already talked about the place that reasonable and realistic ideas have in this subject? ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know goshdarnit I just keep trying though


----------



## ocotillo

ET1SSJonota said:


> Couldn't one argue that the purpose of the author was to tape some sex to make money? The money is made because people buy it... regardless of whether or not they eventually become aroused by it.


Ultimately all authors intend to make money, since they have to eat just like everybody else.

But they choose their subject matter for a reason. The author of a pornographic work can't very well feign ignorance about that reason after the fact.


----------



## Faithful Wife

A PA could happen all via skype so, no touching.


----------



## johnnycomelately

AnnieAsh said:


> No, what I am taking issue with is this idea that to not desire porn within a relationship is somehow controlling or insecure. I object most strenuously to that.


What you are talking about is legal, normal behaviour. So yes, demanding that someone does not use porn is controlling and may well be because of insecurity. 

If you have an issue with porn you should make that clear early on in the relationship, just as you would if you have an objection to alcohol or meat eating.


----------



## Grayson

AnnieAsh said:


> No, what I am taking issue with is this idea that to not desire porn within a relationship is somehow controlling or insecure. I object most strenuously to that.


I would take issue with that position if I were being applied universally, to all cases, as well. But it's not. Not even by Dvl. He happens to think, however, that the BULK of instances where one partner banishes porn meet that criteria. You may disagree with that notion, but to suggest that, because your situation doesn't fit that criteria that it never happens or can't even be examined as a possible norm would be just as disingenuous as to discount the existence if situations such as yours.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

ET1SSJonota said:


> Except that you are proffering something that they say is "based" on their research as a reason to reject everything that they say/do. They can support a viewpoint not 100% factual. Their SCIENCE, however, is not based on their point of view. The numbers reported are those that are given to them, not made up out of thin air. If you refuse to acknowledge any scientific numbers, then I suppose we should make all choices based on our feelings alone. That will go well...


And, as I said earlier, people lie on surveys all the time. Sure, Kinsey is given the numbers. Again, knowing how people respond on surveys, their numbers very well may be inaccurate. Example: Man is mad that his wife said "no" the last two nights in a row because she's exhausted after changing shifts at work and having to cover for two people (not the norm, I know, but can happen). He is taking a survey on sexual frequency the next morning. The question asks "How often to you have sex? a.) once a week b.) 2-4 times a week c.) 5-6 times a week d.) every day e.) multiple times a day f.) once a month g.) once a year"... Ordinarily, they have sex 6-7 times each week. But, considering how mad he is that his wife turned him down, he says 2-4 times a week. As with everything, including survey taking, our experiences, including emotions, influence everything. His response wasn't scientifically accurate... but it reflected how he was feeling at the time he took the survey. Same guy, 3 weeks later, if they are back "on track" once everything else is settled down, easily responds with 5-6 times a week. Again, his own experience influences it. Same guy, different answers. AND, because it's an online survey (no clue if Kinsey uses data compiled from online surveys), BOTH of his responses are counted. So, yet another example of skewed results. The institute itself may very well be respected... it doesn't mean their data is accurate.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> I'd hate to think of millions of people in my situation. It sucks. It both sucks and blows at the same time.


I don't actually "know" how you feel, but I think I'm close enough to get a glimpse, at least on the emotional side. I'm very sorry for your situation, and I don't condone your husbands actions at all. I DO think it should be treated like any other addiction (especially if its going on in public and/or at work). If he won't seek treatment, evaluate how important your relationship is. 

Also, no one says you have to like porn at all. Or be happy the partners is interested in porn. Even the extremist recognize that feelings are those of the owner, and shouldn't be pushed down. That doesn't mean they get to exercise full control over any action they deem to hurt their feelings.
That said, I still don't see porn as the problem.


----------



## Grayson

Faithful Wife said:


> A PA could happen all via skype so, no touching.


Don't quite see how that's a PA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

I gave the example back a few pages at this point. 

But if you watch someone besides your spouse naked and you are both masturbating concurrently but individually (IE people only touching themselves) - is that cheating? 

"Hey Stan, Frank totally isn't in the mood tonight but you've got a hot bod, can you come over to the house and let me watch you spanking it to get my motor running? He's already asleep and I need an orgasm and I don't want to rely on my spank tank."

So - is the reason porn is okay because there's no touching? (Which was brought up a few pages ago.) Or is it deeper than that? Is it because there's no interaction, because the other person "isn't real" (which I'm sure there's a whole conversation in the waiting about "the gaze" and dehumanization of nudes)? Is it about the risk level that it may or may not lead to an affair? 

If so then my question becomes, can you have an EA or PA with porn? How much emotional and sexual energy can you divert into a non-spouse source before its inappropriate? And this might be one of the core arguments - for some people their boundary of appropriateness is none. For others that boundary is much higher. 

But ultimately, everyone has one. Everyone has a point of expectation about what kind of sexual behavior their spouse is or isn't allowed to participate in with another person(s).


----------



## AnnieAsh

johnnycomelately said:


> What you are talking about is legal, normal behaviour. So yes, demanding that someone does not use porn is controlling and may well be because of insecurity.
> 
> If you have an issue with porn you should make that clear early on in the relationship, just as you would if you have an objection to alcohol or meat eating.


And what do you suggest to those who did their due diligence and discussed it before marriage? What recourse do they have after they've been victims of the old Bait and Switch?


----------



## ET1SSJonota

ocotillo said:


> Ultimately all authors intend to make money, since they have to eat just like everybody else.
> 
> But they choose their subject matter for a reason. The author of a pornographic work can't very well feign ignorance about that reason after the fact.


So how does that not apply to other "works of art" that do the same thing again?


----------



## ET1SSJonota

Maricha75 said:


> And, as I said earlier, people lie on surveys all the time. Sure, Kinsey is given the numbers. Again, knowing how people respond on surveys, their numbers very well may be inaccurate. Example: Man is mad that his wife said "no" the last two nights in a row because she's exhausted after changing shifts at work and having to cover for two people (not the norm, I know, but can happen). He is taking a survey on sexual frequency the next morning. The question asks "How often to you have sex? a.) once a week b.) 2-4 times a week c.) 5-6 times a week d.) every day e.) multiple times a day f.) once a month g.) once a year"... Ordinarily, they have sex 6-7 times each week. But, considering how mad he is that his wife turned him down, he says 2-4 times a week. As with everything, including survey taking, our experiences, including emotions, influence everything. His response wasn't scientifically accurate... but it reflected how he was feeling at the time he took the survey. Same guy, 3 weeks later, if they are back "on track" once everything else is settled down, easily responds with 5-6 times a week. Again, his own experience influences it. Same guy, different answers. AND, because it's an online survey (no clue if Kinsey uses data compiled from online surveys), BOTH of his responses are counted. So, yet another example of skewed results. The institute itself may very well be respected... it doesn't mean their data is accurate.


Which is why surveys require more than 5 people to have any kind of import to real research. Your premise is entirely flawed. With what your suggesting, why research anything? Come on.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Grayson said:


> Don't quite see how that's a PA.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On CWI, if a WW has indulged in cyber/phone sex, they inform the BH that it is, in fact, a PA. The intent was there but distance came between the WW and AP.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"And what do you suggest to those who did their due diligence and discussed it before marriage? What recourse do they have after they've been victims of the old Bait and Switch?"


Annie you know the answer to that. Your only recourse is divorce. I'm sorry, but that's all you can do.

If he wants to change, he will change. Otherwise...you know the drill.

But your point is a good one and is taken, that even in couples who did talk about this, things can change. People change. Addictions occur to even the "best" most kind and intelligent people.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> And what do you suggest to those who did their due diligence and discussed it before marriage? What recourse do they have after they've been victims of the old Bait and Switch?


Take a stand or leave. They suggest the same thing to those who were lured in with frequent boundless sex to only find a coldfish in bed. The old wedding cake joke anyone?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> "Both are wrong."
> 
> So clearly then, who ever does not agree with you is wrong.
> 
> sigh....


Well I certainly don't think I'm wrong... duh.

Neglect as a result of porn use is obviously wrong.

I've still seen nothing in this thread to convince me that the banning of all porn whatsoever is anything other than insecurity and desire to control... which is also obviously wrong.

I pointed out that it is not a zero sum game... it fell on deaf ears. What is the harm? What is the basis for this claimed "hurt" when I've shown that nothing is lost.

Its pure and simple fear. Insecurity. Its the feeling that he's choosing porn OVER you, which has been repeated by the anti-porn brigade several times now.

My case is pretty solid. And the opposition only has an ethereal "hurt" they claim is not insecurity... even though think porn use which doesn't deprive them of any sex they would otherwise get is still chosing porn OVER them. That's practically the definition of insecurity.

If you both have that insecurity and agree to no porn, so be it! I'm happy for you. But its exclusion is still based on insecurity that they want the porn and not you.


----------



## AnnieAsh

Divorce? Then you know what we get? "Wow you were so insecure about porn that you left your spouse? You broke up your family over PORN?!" 

Caught between a rock and a not quite hard enough place.


----------



## johnnycomelately

AnnieAsh said:


> And what do you suggest to those who did their due diligence and discussed it before marriage? What recourse do they have after they've been victims of the old Bait and Switch?


Well, if the spouse was dishonest that is an issue, just as lying about eating meat to a vegetarian would be wrong. The issue is one of deception.

If you are expecting someone to behave in a way that is out of the ordinary you are morally obliged to say so. To expect someone not to do something normal, and to guess that you have that expectation is unfair and is a recipe for conflict.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"I've still seen nothing in this thread to convince me that the banning of all porn whatsoever is anything other than insecurity and desire to control... which is also obviously wrong."

You don't get to decide what is wrong for other people, Dvls. 

I guess the fact that you think you do is why we can never actually have a real debate. You simply feel your way is the only way.

No need to debate on that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Annie...I'm sorry for your sitch. That's gotta suck.

But being that I am already divorced and part of the reason was sexual incompatibility, I can tell you that no one will think twice about it the way you fear they will. It is a valid reason to divorce.


----------



## ET1SSJonota

AnnieAsh said:


> Divorce? Then you know what we get? "Wow you were so insecure about porn that you left your spouse? You broke up your family over PORN?!"
> 
> Caught between a rock and a not quite hard enough place.


I think any explanation of what you are going through would absolve that little issue Annie. Even the porn extremists on here are on your side!


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> A PA could happen all via skype so, no touching.


Isn't that a cyber affair?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Starstarfish said:


> I gave the example back a few pages at this point.
> 
> But if you watch someone besides your spouse naked and you are both masturbating concurrently but individually (IE people only touching themselves) - is that cheating?
> 
> "Hey Stan, Frank totally isn't in the mood tonight but you've got a hot bod, can you come over to the house and let me watch you spanking it to get my motor running? He's already asleep and I need an orgasm and I don't want to rely on my spank tank."
> 
> So - is the reason porn is okay because there's no touching? (Which was brought up a few pages ago.) Or is it deeper than that? Is it because there's no interaction, because the other person "isn't real" (which I'm sure there's a whole conversation in the waiting about "the gaze" and dehumanization of nudes)? Is it about the risk level that it may or may not lead to an affair?
> 
> If so then my question becomes, can you have an EA or PA with porn? How much emotional and sexual energy can you divert into a non-spouse source before its inappropriate? And this might be one of the core arguments - for some people their boundary of appropriateness is none. For others that boundary is much higher.
> 
> But ultimately, everyone has one. Everyone has a point of expectation about what kind of sexual behavior their spouse is or isn't allowed to participate in with another person(s).


A physical affair must involve physical presence. I suppose I could see your example as one. However, the skype session still doesn't qualify. There's nothing physical about it. An emotional affiar involves emotional presence... interaction and relating to develop emotional attachment. 

Porn is not a person. It is an image. It is an object. Could someone have an EA with an inanimate object? Of course, this probably isn't the truest sense of what an emotional affair is.

To wit, I have an emotional affair with my motorcycle. 

Live cam emotional affair? Maybe, maybe not. You can't have an emotional affair if you're not emotionally involved, even if its a live interaction... but I'd think the risk of developing an EA would be high unless its some paid cam girl.

One day we'll have computer simulations so realistic, we'll be asking whether someone is having an affair with a program.


----------



## tacoma

> Originally Posted by ScarletBegonias
> It's especially important for the porn issue since it's such a polarizing topic.


But for many if not most of us it's not polarizing at all.
In fact we can't comprehend how it could be polarizing for anyone.



> -how do we address the porn issue with our partner?
> -how can we get them to understand why we're using it or why we're against using it?
> -is porn use an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you viewing porn?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop using porn?
> -HOW much porn are you ok with your partner using if any?
> -Is your issue with the type of porn viewed or porn as a whole?


This is what this sounds like to me when I read it.

-how do we address the cookie issue with our partner?
-how can we get them to understand why we're eating them or why we're against eating them?
-is cookie ingesting an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
-are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you eating cookies?
-are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop eating cookies?
-HOW many cookies are you ok with your partner eating if any?
-Is your issue with the type of cookies eaten or cookies as a whole?

It is truly that silly to me at least.

It's a non-issue and always has been for my entire life.

If we're discussing an obsession with porn then I can understand the problem but generally we're not talking about an obsession at all.


----------



## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> A PA could happen all via skype so, no touching.


I wouldn't consider that a PA by definition.

No touching=No PA


----------



## ocotillo

ET1SSJonota said:


> So how does that not apply to other "works of art" that do the same thing again?


Do you have an example?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tacoma...have you not read the zillions of stories of affairs that start long distance, and skype sex is the way they have sex regularly? And they plot and plan to leave their spouses for each other for months? 

Maybe you've never had skype sex yourself?

It can certainly be sex, and it is certainly physical.

Solo sex is also physical.


----------



## LongWalk

Faithful wife is correct and Annie knows it. And many of the participants in this thread know that porn, like refined sugar, is statistically negative to our collective mental health. Some people can smoke weed and function, but the net effect is harmful. If a spouse objects to weed or alcohol, they ought be able to forbid porn
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ET1SSJonota

The aforementioned art, that elicited erotic emotions/tendencies/thoughts/what-have-you; but was not considered porn because that wasn't the "intent".


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## Faithful Wife

Hey now, don't go knockin' weed....are you insecure or something? Chyuh.


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## ScarletBegonias

The words Insecure(insecurity) and Control (controlling) keep getting tossed around and I think it's important to address that.

When you're in a relationship,like it or not,you do have to give up a certain bit of control to the other person.

You no longer get to do whatever you want because you always have to think about how the other person feels and take them into consideration before acting on something that could have an impact on them.So I feel throwing around 'controlling' is probably not the best way to argue your points.

Insecure/Insecurity...some people are this way.It happens and we all have to deal with it in our partners at one time or another.how you choose to handle their insecurity will dictate the occurrence of future insecurity.

Wanting your partner to come to you for sexual release rather than doing it on her own/his own with porn doesn't show insecurity.It shows the desire for a strong bond and it shows the desire of wanting to be the sole source of sexual pleasure for your partner.I can't view that as anything but loving,healthy and reasonable.

Wanting your partner to stop viewing porn because you don't look like those men or women is unhealthy unreasonable insecurity to me.It says you need to take a look at why you feel threatened and try to improve your own self worth.


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## DvlsAdvc8

I'm out for the day... this thread needs to slow down.


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## Kobo

ET1SSJonota said:


> then I suppose we should make all choices based on our feelings alone. That will go well...


That's what this whole thread is based on.


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## DvlsAdvc8

tacoma said:


> But for many if not most of us it's not polarizing at all.
> In fact we can't comprehend how it could be polarizing for anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what this sounds like to me when I read it.
> 
> -how do we address the cookie issue with our partner?
> -how can we get them to understand why we're eating them or why we're against eating them?
> -is cookie ingesting an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you eating cookies?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop eating cookies?
> -HOW many cookies are you ok with your partner eating if any?
> -Is your issue with the type of cookies eaten or cookies as a whole?
> 
> It is truly that silly to me at least.
> 
> It's a non-issue and always has been for my entire life.
> 
> If we're discussing an obsession with porn then I can understand the problem but generally we're not talking about an obsession at all.


That is just plain brilliant. Kudos to you sir. This is exactly my feeling as well.


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## ScarletBegonias

tacoma said:


> But for many if not most of us it's not polarizing at all.
> In fact we can't comprehend how it could be polarizing for anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what this sounds like to me when I read it.
> 
> -how do we address the cookie issue with our partner?
> -how can we get them to understand why we're eating them or why we're against eating them?
> -is cookie ingesting an indication of deeper problems in the relationship?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner doesn't want you eating cookies?
> -are you willing to walk if your partner won't stop eating cookies?
> -HOW many cookies are you ok with your partner eating if any?
> -Is your issue with the type of cookies eaten or cookies as a whole?
> 
> It is truly that silly to me at least.
> 
> It's a non-issue and always has been for my entire life.
> 
> If we're discussing an obsession with porn then I can understand the problem but generally we're not talking about an obsession at all.


This isn't about cookies and I think it's silly to reduce it to that when there are so many threads and so much discussion about "The porn Issue"

Obviously to many many people it is way bigger than cookies.If you are a person who thinks it can be reduced to cookies,then of course it's best if you are with a female who agrees with that view.


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## Starstarfish

Some people would be willing to walk if their partner wouldn't stop eating cookies, because it was making them gain weight and be unattractive.


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## Grayson

Starstarfish said:


> I gave the example back a few pages at this point.
> 
> But if you watch someone besides your spouse naked and you are both masturbating concurrently but individually (IE people only touching themselves) - is that cheating?


Ah, but cheating and a PA aren't always the same thing. It's a good question, but I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer. I think that most people would say that, if both parties are in the same room, it's cheating. Beyond that, I think it would come down to individual couples' views on the matter. Both parties showing for one another live on cam? Maybe. Both parties masturbating, but only one showing on cam? Maybe, maybe not. Is there some sort of actual interaction (chat, microphone, etc)? I'd propose that the more live/interactive the situation, the higher the likelihood that it would be viewed as cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

Like many, I smoked dope in college. It did not help me get better grades. A cousin of mine just died of cervical cancer. Her 17 year old son stole from her and his sisters to finance his THC addiction. He is on the run from the police. His FB wall is a dealer's billboard.

Cookies disturb browser function
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

ScarletBegonias said:


> Wanting your partner to come to you for sexual release rather than doing it on her own/his own with porn doesn't show insecurity.It shows the desire for a strong bond and it shows the desire of wanting to be the sole source of sexual pleasure for your partner.I can't view that as anything but loving,healthy and reasonable.


I disagree. Change sexual pleasure to laughing and you see how absurd I find it. I want my significant other to only laugh at my jokes. I don't like when she laughs at other guys jokes, even though she loves my jokes. 

A strong bond? I don't get this AT ALL. "My spouse liked watching someone naked on tv, there goes our bond!" This is way to mushy and undefined imo. Is my bond weaker because she laughs at other guys jokes? 

The real root here is avoiding feeling like you're competing. You feel like you're competing because you're insecure. Insecurity is driving you to control that competitive "threat". Its all insecurity and control.


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## Maricha75

ET1SSJonota said:


> Which is why surveys require more than 5 people to have any kind of import to real research. Your premise is entirely flawed. With what your suggesting, why research anything? Come on.


I never said it WASN'T flawed. I was only pointing out how easy it is to skew the results.... and the fact that a survey doesn't always take into account how many people are able to take part more than once.


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## DvlsAdvc8

ok...now I'm going... for real. lol


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## Grayson

Faithful Wife said:


> Solo sex is also physical.


Wait a second.

Back the truck up.

Are we now dancing around the idea that masturbation is a Physical Affair?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I disagree. Change sexual pleasure to laughing and you see how absurd I find it. I want my significant other to only laugh at my jokes. I don't like when she laughs at other guys jokes, even though she loves my jokes.
> 
> A strong bond? I don't get this AT ALL. "My spouse liked watching someone naked on tv, there goes our bond!" This is way to mushy and undefined imo. Is my bond weaker because she laughs at other guys jokes?
> 
> The real root here is avoiding feeling like you're competing. You feel like you're competing because you're insecure. Insecurity is driving you to control that competitive "threat". Its all insecurity and control.


I don't see where I said or implied you couldn't have a strong bond and have porn in your lives.I simply said what it shows me when a person wants to be the only source of your sexual gratification and release.I don't expect you to understand or subscribe to that belief.


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## Faithful Wife

Grayson....NO. Please don't go off the rails. I only mean that solo sex is SEX, and no one else is touching you.


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## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The real root here is avoiding feeling like you're competing. You feel like you're competing because you're insecure. Insecurity is driving you to control that competitive "threat". Its all insecurity and control.


As a person who has no issue with porn,I can't agree with this as a blanket statement for all people who have issues with porn.I agree it can be the root of many cases but there are other reasons.


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## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> ok...now I'm going... for real. lol


Lies. You're gonna keep reading... and eventually posting.


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## Grayson

Faithful Wife said:


> Grayson....NO. Please don't go off the rails. I only mean that solo sex is SEX, and no one else is touching you.


Given the context, though, it sure read like it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

Grayson said:


> Wait a second.
> 
> Back the truck up.
> 
> Are we now dancing around the idea that masturbation is a Physical Affair?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These porn threads ALWAYS end up there sooner or later.

It's ridiculous.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> "I've still seen nothing in this thread to convince me that the banning of all porn whatsoever is anything other than insecurity and desire to control... which is also obviously wrong."
> 
> You don't get to decide what is wrong for other people, Dvls.
> 
> I guess the fact that you think you do is why we can never actually have a real debate. You simply feel your way is the only way.
> 
> No need to debate on that.


Its not my job in a debate to prove me wrong. What do you not get about that?

Yes, I think I'm right. Yes, I think you (they?) are wrong. I've made a substantial case. The counter argument is down to "our bond". Wow. Really?

Everyone can do whatever they want. Build a relationship of restrictions based on their common insecurities... have fun! Don't be out after ten, she's insecure and thinks you might be up to no good after ten. etc Don't think I'm exaggerating, we just discussed restriction of their partner's thoughts a little while ago.

Yes, this is wrong headed thinking imo. Find two who agree on it and you're good to go though. Negative times negative makes positive. I'm glad it works for some people.


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## Faithful Wife

"Yes, I think you (they?) are wrong. I've made a substantial case. The counter argument is down to "our bond". Wow. Really?"


Dvls, you don't even know my stance on the subject, yet you know I am wrong. That's funny.


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## Maricha75

Faithful Wife said:


> Grayson....NO. Please don't go off the rails. I only mean that solo sex is SEX, and no one else is touching you.


Ok, I THINK I get it. The premise is that you are likely in an EA if you are having skype sex/sexting. And, when doing that, you are, in fact, masturbating. Mutual masturbation, if you will. And, based SOLELY on that, it would be a PA because some physical contact is required (self) while having the already established EA. Not saying that it is an affair with yourself lol.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Oh my god what bs lady. I've f-ed enough women to know exactly what a typical female orgasm is.
> 
> Minutes my a$$... scientifically speaking your orgasm lasts about the same length of time as a man's.
> 
> Take that trash to someone ignorant enough to buy it. If you think you're orgasm is lasting minutes, you haven't actually had a real one... which, come to think of it, isn't terribly uncommon among women either.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Please do not blame me for your ignorance of women's sexuality. If you Google for more than 10 seconds, you will find that I am right. 

I believe that you have "f-ed" plenty of women, but I wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that you are a selfish lover that cares only about his own pleasure.,


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## Faithful Wife

Tacoma...please don't go down that road, since mb-ing is not what I was getting at nor do I think it is cheating....please.


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## Maricha75

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its not my job in a debate to prove me wrong. What do you not get about that?
> 
> Yes, I think I'm right. Yes, I think you (they?) are wrong. I've made a substantial case. The counter argument is down to "our bond". Wow. Really?
> 
> Everyone can do whatever they want. *Build a relationship of restrictions based on their common insecurities*... have fun! Don't be out after ten, she's insecure and thinks you might be up to no good after ten. etc Don't think I'm exaggerating, we just discussed restriction of their partner's thoughts a little while ago.
> 
> Yes, this is wrong headed thinking imo. Find two who agree on it and you're good to go though. Negative times negative makes positive. I'm glad it works for some people.


Except there is one problem with that thought... those of us in relationships with like minded SOs don't see it as an insecurity. Rather, we see the unwillingness of one to even consider the validity of the SO's position to be insecure.


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## ScarletBegonias

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Yes, I think I'm right. Yes, I think you (they?) are wrong. I've made a substantial case. The counter argument is down to "our bond". Wow. Really?


Just to be clear,nothing I'm saying here is meant to be taken as counter argument to anything that could come from you. It would be an exercise in futility based on reading many other posts you've done.


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## Starstarfish

Sorry Faithful Wife, it might have been my post(s) that led to that line of thinking, but as Maricha75 points out it was referring to a specific question. 

And thanks for your response, Grayson. I agree, it is ultimately up to each couple to determine what their boundaries are. Which I think is ultimately, what I and others are arguing. And for some people, some women, that boundary is about porn and use its use and place in their relationship. 

And ultimately, every person should feel free to make their own boundaries. And if people getting into a relationship don't discuss those boundaries, that's a fail on both people's part equally. And if people lie about those boundaries, double fail. 



> Don't be out after ten, she's insecure and thinks you might be up to no good after ten.


So is every male poster who will tell her if she posts on TAM worrying about his boys nights out or being out late that she should VAR his car, check his LUDs and hire a PI also insecure? Or is insecurity only a female problem? I mean - reading things here on TAM about how everything is a sign of an affair, how doesn't that make everyone a little less secure?


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## Grayson

Random thought that just came to mind, re: porn no being "entertainment."

A few years ago, sitting up late, I was channel surfing and came across a Cinemax series called "Co-Ed Confidential." Knowing what I was likely to see, I tuned in. Nothing else on struck my fancy, after all. Not bad for softcore cable stuff. But...I found myself getting caught up in the story. It wasn't The greatest show on TV and was intentionally a bit goofy. But, it certainly was a pleasant enough diversion for 30 minutes once a week, and would have been without frequent nudity and simulated sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Grayson said:


> Random thought that just came to mind, re: porn no being "entertainment."
> 
> A few years ago, sitting up late, I was channel surfing and came across a Cinemax series called "Co-Ed Confidential." Knowing what I was likely to see, I tuned in. Nothing else on struck my fancy, after all. Not bad for softcore cable stuff. But...I found myself getting caught up in the story. It wasn't The greatest show on TV and was intentionally a bit goofy. But, it certainly was a pleasant enough diversion for 30 minutes once a week, and would have been without frequent nudity and simulated sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


uh huh, and you read Playboy for the articles too, dont ya?


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## Grayson

Maricha75 said:


> Except there is one problem with that thought... those of us in relationships with like minded SOs don't see it as an insecurity. Rather, we see the unwillingness of one to even consider the validity of the SO's position to be insecure.


And if they consider but find no validity to that position?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

> But, it certainly was a pleasant enough diversion for 30 minutes once a week, and would have been without frequent nudity and simulated sex.


Same as Game of Thrones, but how much porn is actually watchable for the storyline? How many pool cleaners, firefighters, and policemen before its no longer entertaining?


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## Grayson

Almostrecovered said:


> uh huh, and you read Playboy for the articles too, dont ya?


I *read* it for the articles.

I look at the pictures for the beautiful naked women. As does my wife. And the monthly Olivia pin-up.

Most exited I've been for a Playboy issue in a while was the one about a year ago with a new The Walking Dead short story by the creators of the comic exploring Michonne's history. True story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

Your wife must be on a different level on the Kinsey scale than me, Grayson. 

But - I've never felt the urge to pick up a Playboy and look at other naked women.

I might have read that article about the Walking Dead though. :smthumbup:


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## Grayson

Starstarfish said:


> Same as Game of Thrones, but how much porn is actually watchable for the storyline? How many pool cleaners, firefighters, and policemen before its no longer entertaining?


I dunno. How many sitcoms with precocious, smart-Alec kids, bumbling dim-witted fathers, and friends who just come waltzing in the door before its no longer entertaining? How many police procedural a before its no longer entertaining? How many detective shows with a "will they/won't they" sexual tension between the leads before it's no longer entertaining?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScarletBegonias

I think it's entertainment,it sure entertained the he!! out of me when I was single


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## Maricha75

Grayson said:


> And if they consider but find no validity to that position?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess it depends on what they consider to be valid. Not a likely scenario, but as an example, if the wife had a mastectomy due to cancer, she has horrible body image, most likely, yes? She had no issue before with him watching porn (maybe), or she just didn't know. One night, she gets up and sees him watching some. She sees these girls/women with voluptuous breasts, and how he is mesmerized, and she feels she is inadequately equipped. She tells her husband what she saw, and how she felt about it. How does he respond to that? Is it an insecurity? Sure. Is it valid? You tell me. My personal opinion is that it is. But would that be the opinion of one who says "my body, I can do whatever I want"? 

Now, suppose they had made their own videos before her mastectomy, as well as taken pictures of each other. She has no problem with him watching these videos. She tells him as much, as well as stating that she wishes he'd stop watching the other stuff. Is it a valid request?


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## Almostrecovered

ScarletBegonias said:


> I think it's entertainment,it sure entertained the he!! out of me when I was single


interactive media


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## Grayson

Starstarfish said:


> Your wife must be on a different level on the Kinsey scale than me, Grayson.
> 
> But - I've never felt the urge to pick up a Playboy and look at other naked women.


Is put her at about a 1 or 1.5. She's expressed a curiosity, but it's gone no further than lap dances at the strip club (with me).



> I might have read that article about the Walking Dead though. :smthumbup:


Find a comic store near you on Saturday. I believe it's supposed to be reprinted in the Walking Dead book being offered as part of annual Free Comic Book Day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

always_alone said:


> Please do not blame me for your ignorance of women's sexuality. If you Google for more than 10 seconds, you will find that I am right.
> 
> I believe that you have "f-ed" plenty of women, but I wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that you are a selfish lover that cares only about his own pleasure.,


Uhh not to side with the "others", but I can honestly say I have never had multiples and mine NEVER last more than a few seconds... MAYBE a minute, if I'm lucky... And my husband is NOT a selfish lover. A "proper" orgasm, as you stated early on is ANY orgasm which is not faked. Period. It doesn't matter if it lasts 10 seconds or a few minutes. If it is REAL, it is proper. Case closed.


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## Kobo

AnnieAsh said:


> No, what I am taking issue with is this idea that to not desire porn within a relationship is somehow controlling or insecure. I object most strenuously to that.
> 
> I could say well all dudes who watch are awful lovers! But then I'd get 5 posters jumping down my throat saying "Nu uh! Nu uh! Not me!"


Yeah but those comparisons aren't even wild... aw forget it.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Maricha75 said:


> Uhh not to side with the "others", but I can honestly say I have never had multiples and mine NEVER last more than a few seconds... MAYBE a minute, if I'm lucky... And my husband is NOT a selfish lover. A "proper" orgasm, as you stated early on is ANY orgasm which is not faked. Period. It doesn't matter if it lasts 10 seconds or a few minutes. If it is REAL, it is proper. Case closed.


Have to park my agreement here.I've had some pretty epic orgasms with SO and the breathless feeling from them lasts a while but the orgasms themselves last at the most 15-20 seconds.
The man is anything but selfish,spends so much time giving me oral just for the sheer love of it that I swear he would spend the whole night down there if I let him.

And yes,REAL=PROPER


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## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> Tacoma...please don't go down that road, since mb-ing is not what I was getting at nor do I think it is cheating....please.


I don't have to go down it.

It'll appear all on it's own if this thread lasts another ten pages.
It always does.


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## tacoma

always_alone said:


> Please do not blame me for your ignorance of women's sexuality. If you Google for more than 10 seconds, you will find that I am right.


I've never know any human to have an orgasm that lasts a minute let alone numerous minutes.

Crap.


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## Amplexor




----------

