# Logically how can love exist?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

The only love I've come to acknowledge and cherish is the love I share with me and my daughter, but even then I know it has its limits and is conditional, just like the "love" I have for my own immediate family. If it isn't pure, it isn't love. That's my belief. Did I love ex-wife? Did she love me in return? Meh, she only loved me because what I could give her, and me her - once the troubles hit all love is conditional. Nothing is for free, life is no fairytale.

So I live my life hardened, content with the freedom and none of the expectations of "love". My finances and my daughter's future is secured. No woman will threaten it.

Until now...

My recent girlfriend is defying my reality and belief systems, and I struggle to believe it, but I know that she believes it. She passes every test, tests that 99% of women I've dated failed. It was designed to make them fail, to keep myself justifying my emotional unavailability. Yet she passed. For a while it was great, come what may, I didn't care, just live life right?

Wrong...

Right now I am going to make a decision this year for semi-retirement, I'm finished pushing for the greens. I have my investments, I have my success. I don't need my income anymore, I am changing my lifestyle to pursue hobbies and passions. Which means... a lot less money. Will girlfriend cash out? Who knows, but when I have a risk, I like to deal with it head-on, remove or mitigate. Wait... this is a human being we are talking about!

Logical solution: Remove

I'm on the down-spiral, and I don't know anymore. I don't want to have her weighting on my decisions to pursue a new lifestyle. She gives me no pressure directly, but the sole fact that she's my girlfriend pressures me immensely. If the solution is not logical, if I am to stay with her, how do I deal with these thoughts?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

True love doesn't fear that it won't be equitable. Yes it's OK to have conditions, mine are that I won't accept abuse. Look relationships are like anything else in life, no risk, no reward. Nothing great in life comes without risk, the same holds true with love. You have to decide if the risk is worth it. Right now you just sound like you are afraid, and I mean no disrespect by saying that. It's understandable after being burned. Again, like any other fear you need to acknowledge it and decide if you are going to press on or "remove" as you say. One thing to remember is you did survive what your ex did to you, why don't you think you could survive it again. 

One last thing I will say is when you really love someone, like the marring kind of love, you want to give yourself to them. Don't marry this woman unless you feel this way. Do you believe your hobbies are going to make you feel fulfilled or do you need to spend your life with someone else? I ask this because if hobbies are enough and you aren't willing to give yourself, meaning your safety, then it's better you don't give her the impression you are. It's also better for her to find someone who willing to give this much, because this is what is required to have a happy marriage. Both people have to feel this way.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Tests?

Is that a word that should be used in building a healthy relationship?

If title alone is enough to apply weight, do you really feel ready for such a commitment?

It should feel like weightlessness, not weighted.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Love and logic?

LOL!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Just dont want to waste anymore time. I spent my youth working my ass off while under the ball and chain so I could provide for my family. Now I'm in a position where I can spoil myself. The 84 hour weeks and multi-million dollar deals, I want to leave it all behind. At least for now. I want my 30s to be a vacation, to do what I've always wanted. This is my mid-life crisis!!!

Yet I can't seem to not feel pressured to keep pushing, like a knife at my back driving me to greed, the sense of responsibility to provide. It just feels so weird having her around when I'm consciously about to make a decision to go poorer. This is the weight I am feeling. She's not causing it, not directly, she's only been sweet to me. This seems to be my problem.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WOW!

This deserves two..

WOW!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

You don't seem very self aware. First of all, sounds like all your motivation in your life so far has been about acquiring financial stability, yet now you have it and you don't seem any happier or less worried about it. Is this really what is bothering you? How about stop flailing and try to really learn about yourself. For instance do you know there are very happy people in this world who didn't push to be as well off as you are? Some are quite poor. Why do you think that is? Maybe there is more to life then you are seeing. Again what are you really asking here? It seems to me you are saying what you have been doing is not making you happy, and it has very little with this woman, and more to do with you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you're in your (late?) 30's and contemplating semi retirement, depending on hobbies, money burn rate could be an issue. 

I know many people from tech firms who "retired" after the dot com boom of 2000 and did the sailboat or what not, within a few years they mostly went back to work, mostly from boredom but also financial reality.

If your idea of semi retirement is 40 hour work weeks that's a different issue


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This seems like 2 different issues: do you stop working, and a relationship question.

In a way the relationship question is easier. Are you both happy when you are with her? If so, then no matter what happens in the future you are not wasting time. 

As far as quitting your job - that is really a psychology question for you. Can you be happy without feeling like you are actively contributing? Or can you contribute to society in some non-work way?





RandomDude said:


> Just dont want to waste anymore time. I spent my youth working my ass off while under the ball and chain so I could provide for my family. Now I'm in a position where I can spoil myself. The 84 hour weeks and multi-million dollar deals, I want to leave it all behind. At least for now. I want my 30s to be a vacation, to do what I've always wanted. This is my mid-life crisis!!!
> 
> Yet I can't seem to not feel pressured to keep pushing, like a knife at my back driving me to greed, the sense of responsibility to provide. It just feels so weird having her around when I'm consciously about to make a decision to go poorer. This is the weight I am feeling. She's not causing it, not directly, she's only been sweet to me. This seems to be my problem.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Sounds kind of like awkward bragging. "I'm retiring in my 30's because of my business prowess and million dollar deals."

It's awkward because many of us older than you have travelled different paths, and many feel rewarded in ways you don't appear to be.

I don't mean to be directly harsh - and if you did earn that much that quickly you will take this as harsh - but you sound insecure.

I think you might benefit from hanging around with some people who specifically chose lower income, but respectable, professions to see what makes them tick. Teachers, physical or occupational therapists, yoga teachers. You can find them around town or the local library.

You will doubtless find people who are upset about finances... but beyond that you might find people who are rewarded by the relationships they build and maintain, or by the things they do for a living that they believe in.

If you start to surround yourself with people with different values - other than money and business success - you might get some hint of why they "aren't as successful" as you - and why it doesn't bother them.

I was on a path to "success" but benefited from vicarious experience seeing millionaire (++ probably) families - and the fact that money didn't prevent them from having huge problems. I also saw firsthand the consequences of success in business - big bank but divorce, estranged children, isolation, and ultimately emptiness in many ways. This is what I hear in your brief post.

I dropped out of this at a relatively young age and earn a modest salary (still upper 3-5% family income) but see my kids and stopped traveling. I questioned my decision over the years, of course, but I would have missed what actually is best in life had I focused on business success. You're still young enough to "get it"

Anyway, that's my $.02 and about what it's worth.


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

Read this article and pay particular attention to item #4.

6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

When I was young I didn't care about success, what drove me was my daughter. But now that I have enough to set aside for her and myself, I want to go back to being happy go-lucky me!

My semi retirement involves full time study, a complete career change, as well as getting more free time in the air and maybe become an instructor. I want to pursue my passions, and having a girlfriend feels like a burden.

She says she will support me in whatever decision I make, why can't I believe that?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> I want to pursue my passions, and having a girlfriend feels like a burden.


Then don't have a girlfriend. I guess I don't get what you are asking. Seems to me like you are just posting that you are afraid, again with good reason since you have been burned once. Maybe you need to talk to someone about your fear.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

sokillme said:


> Then don't have a girlfriend. I guess I don't get what you are asking. Seems to me like you are just posting that you are afraid, again with good reason since you have been burned once. Maybe you need to talk to someone about your fear.




I fully agree. If you can't pursue your passions - and modify them so you aren't completely self absorbed - but instead make them about you and her - then be honest.

Let her know you don't want to share and be an available partner. Tell her you want it to be all about - and only about - you.

Bottom line - if you've already made these decisions, then the only thing to do with integrity is let her go - actually it is a requirement if you have any respect for her. In that case you've chosen a path many would consider narcissistic - and many TAM members will tell you the extreme pain a narcissist causes for others. I say that objectively - not in a judgmental sense.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> When I was young I didn't care about success, what drove me was my daughter. But now that I have enough to set aside for her and myself, I want to go back to being happy go-lucky me!
> 
> My semi retirement involves full time study, a complete career change, as well as getting more free time in the air and maybe become an instructor. I want to pursue my passions, and having a girlfriend feels like a burden.
> 
> She says she will support me in whatever decision I make, why can't I believe that?


It actually does not matter what you believe, and it's not logical to assume anything. Her actions will demonstrate the truth - all you need to do is observe, and then act on the information in the appropriate way. If she isn't a burden, then I'd suggest you work on your perspective, and see her as unusual, special, and compatible with your values.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> My semi retirement involves full time study, a complete career change, as well as getting more free time in the air and maybe become an instructor. I want to pursue my passions, and *having a girlfriend feels like a burden*.


If that is true, then I _strongly_ encourage you to not have a girlfriend. As it turns out, my boyfriend, then fiancé, then husband - and now ex-husband - always felt that our relationship was a burden. I'm not sure why he couldn't be honest with himself and with me about the fact that he didn't actually enjoy being in a committed relationship. Perhaps it was family or social pressure. I also know he enjoyed having the perks that came along with having a wife to manage the daily realities of his life along with his social and family obligations. But being in a monogamous relationship, one with give and take and boundaries and a need to consider someone other than himself, was just a burden to him. _I_ was a burden to him. _Our son _was a burden to him. And, gradually, he got tired of pretending that wasn't the case, and stopped bothering to do anything that might have concealed that fact. 

No one wants to feel like, be treated like, a burden, or an afterthought, or an obligation, or an annoyance by someone who professes to love them. A relationship where one party feels the other is a burdensome obligation is just a recipe for hurt, anger and resentment in both parties.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sokillme said:


> You don't seem very self aware. First of all, sounds like all your motivation in your life so far has been about acquiring financial stability, yet now you have it and you don't seem any happier or less worried about it. Is this really what is bothering you? How about stop flailing and try to really learn about yourself. For instance do you know there are very happy people in this world who didn't push to be as well off as you are? Some are quite poor. Why do you think that is? Maybe there is more to life then you are seeing. Again what are you really asking here? It seems to me you are saying what you have been doing is not making you happy, and it has very little with this woman, and more to do with you.


I think I could contrast our life to this.. we're not dirt poor.. but would be looked upon as poor by those earning 6 figures / the higher class lifestyle.... We are happy.. very thankful for the jobs we have.. knowing we'll have to work till retirement... but it's OK.. we have each other, we have our family.. we enjoy each other along the way.. coming home to each other.. .. that's what makes it all worth it.. We also don't want to slave for financial gain.. life is too short.. 

All with @sokillme 's posts.. it's about giving of yourself, wanting to share your everything with another....this is never a burden but a joy.. if I heard a man even suggest I was a burden.. I'd have to leave him.. I wouldn't be able to live that down.. just saying..


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Rowan said:


> If that is true, then I _strongly_ encourage you to not have a girlfriend. As it turns out, my boyfriend, then fiancé, then husband - and now ex-husband - always felt that our relationship was a burden. I'm not sure why he couldn't be honest with himself and with me about the fact that he didn't actually enjoy being in a committed relationship. Perhaps it was family or social pressure. I also know he enjoyed having the perks that came along with having a wife to manage the daily realities of his life along with his social and family obligations. But being in a monogamous relationship, one with give and take and boundaries and a need to consider someone other than himself, was just a burden to him. _I_ was a burden to him. _Our son _was a burden to him. And, gradually, he got tired of pretending that wasn't the case, and stopped bothering to do anything that might have concealed that fact.
> 
> No one wants to feel like, be treated like, a burden, or an afterthought, or an obligation, or an annoyance by someone who professes to love them. A relationship where one party feels the other is a burdensome obligation is just a recipe for hurt, anger and resentment in both parties.


This is truth.. although I never felt a burden in a Romantic relationship.. I have felt this way growing up under my step Mother...I hated it so bad..just wanted to crawl under a rock.. run away... I have issues with feeling like a burden-to this day..... I would walk and never talk to someone again if I got wind of them feeling THAT way....

I don't care if we fight... I can forgive many things.. but NEVER the feelings that come along with another feeling what @Rowan has described here.. that's just very ugly, demeaning...it should never be with someone you love..


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## Daisy12 (Jul 10, 2016)

If your girlfriend is this nice, sweet woman that you say she is, you are doing her a real disservice by leading her on when it's apparent you don't want the burden of having a girlfriend and the sacrifices, commitment and compromises that it entails. 

Be a man and let this poor girl go find a man that want to be in a healthy relationship who is not burdened with doubt. You are being selfish by stringing her along.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Guess I'm just cold as ice nowadays


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Guess I'm just cold as ice nowadays




Yep


Many in your position put themselves in the victim chair and then react and say f u to the world.

I've been completely closed off too but at a very young age and I now realize I was probably clinically depressed.

Then, after I gave up on others I met a girl. And she was very sweet. And we ended up dating 6 years and have been married 28 more.

So... yeah... I know how to do what you're doing.

But I was saved by a girl who was worth risking leaving my isolation for.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Guess I'm just cold as ice nowadays


Not cold enough.

Logically, this is easy (to me at least). So I wonder if you are letting your emotions have too much say.

1. You know the change you want to make in your life.
2. You know what love is, and the risks with this girl, but you want her presumably because of her character in part, which includes her being into you, not your money.
3. You've discussed it with her and she says she will support you.

So make the change. If you lose her over it, doesn't it mean you never really had her? And while that is not what you want, wouldn't you rather know?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

At present sure, I'm sure she would be happy with whatever decision but the future? I don't like to feel like I'm wasting time, not to mention I like to be a man of responsibility, if she's to be my future life partner I have to be able to provide. Pursuing my hobbies and starting a potential new business is high risk. Do I really want to put her through that? Well... its her decision and responsibility in the end right? Not mine.

Guess that's the thing with taking responsibility for other people's decisions, it's imprisonment. Also leads to co-dependency. Meh, guess she's made her choice, I just have to respect that, and let her deal with the consequences of her own decisions.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> At present sure, I'm sure she would be happy with whatever decision but the future? I don't like to feel like I'm wasting time, not to mention I like to be a man of responsibility, if she's to be my future life partner I have to be able to provide. Pursuing my hobbies and starting a potential new business is high risk. Do I really want to put her through that? Well... its her decision and responsibility in the end right? Not mine.
> 
> Guess that's the thing with taking responsibility for other people's decisions, it's imprisonment. Also leads to co-dependency. Meh, guess she's made her choice, I just have to respect that, and let her deal with the consequences of her own decisions.


Well, it is her decision. But I am presuming your lifestyle change includes a financial strategy that will see you in reduced but still viable financial circumstances, and I assume you have a plan B if it doesn't work out. If that's the case, what is it you won't be able to provide?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

True, guess I also doubt her "non-materialism", all I have is words and some action at the moment and although she has earned some benefit of the doubt, trust is not fully established. It's going to be ups and downs, even my first business didn't come without cost to my marriage, 84 hour work weeks and I didn't have time for her, and the only time I could squeeze was for our daughter. I don't know what the future will hold but I'm certain of sacrifices. She's a very simple lady, and she has been sheltered, so I question her strength as well.

My plan Bs are to sustain the downtimes of plan A, but not to sustain myself long-term and definitely not to provide for a family again, I don't have unlimited properties to sell. I'm willing to risk going broke and bankrupt to pursue my dreams, but for that... well, I guess that's another reason why girlfriend feels like a burden to me.


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## Capt. Cootie (Feb 22, 2013)

I always enjoy this scene from the film "Hurt Locker"

Staff Sergeant William James: [Speaking to his son] You love playing with that. You love playing with all your stuffed animals. You love your mommy, your daddy, your nature pajamas. You love everything, don't ya? Yeah. But you know what, buddy? As you get older... some of the things that you love might not seem so special anymore, you know? Like your Jack-in-a-Box. Maybe you'll realize it's just a piece of tin and a stuffed animal, but the older you get, the fewer things you really love, and by the time you get to my age, maybe it's only one or two things. With me, I think it's one.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> The only love I've come to acknowledge and cherish is the love I share with me and my daughter, but even then I know it has its limits and is conditional, just like the "love" I have for my own immediate family. If it isn't pure, it isn't love. That's my belief. Did I love ex-wife? Did she love me in return? Meh, she only loved me because what I could give her, and me her - once the troubles hit all love is conditional. Nothing is for free, life is no fairytale.
> 
> So I live my life hardened, content with the freedom and none of the expectations of "love". My finances and my daughter's future is secured. No woman will threaten it.
> 
> ...


I might be wrong but isn't this post more a "thinking out loud" type rather than seeking a specific solution? I would have thought (and this is arguably the naive perspective) there might be just as much joy (or probably more) to share the experiences and fruits of your successes with someone you love or feel close to. If she passes all your "tests" why not give her a chance?

You don't need to marry her so I don't see how she can be a "threat" to your acquired assets. It's ok to fall in love once in a while...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

inmyprime said:


> I might be wrong but isn't this post more a "thinking out loud" type rather than seeking a specific solution? I would have thought (and this is arguably the naive perspective) there might be just as much joy (or probably more) to share the experiences and fruits of your successes with someone you love or feel close to. If she passes all your "tests" why not give her a chance?
> 
> *You don't need to marry her so I don't see how she can be a "threat" to your acquired assets. It's ok to fall in love once in a while...*


*IF* she specifically is hoping, wanting, investing herself INTO HIM and hoping to marry, have children, build a life...then HE is wasting her time.. 

She deserves to know how he is struggling with this so she can asses whether she wants to keep going down this road, or get out & find someone more compatible with her dreams..


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> *IF* she specifically is hoping, wanting, investing herself INTO HIM and hoping to marry, have children, build a life...then HE is wasting her time..
> 
> She deserves to know how he is struggling with this so she can asses whether she wants to keep going down this road, or get out & find someone more compatible with her dreams..




That's true. On the other hand, none of us know how the road is going to end, once we start out on a journey. Nor is it particularly reasonable to commit to all this stuff right from the start as if it's a contractual obligation. It doesn't seem like he has decided in any case in which case this is no different than any other beginning of a relationship, with some doubts. Which doesn't seem especially abnormal to me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

inmyprime said:


> That's true. On the other hand, none of us know how the road is going to end, once we start out on a journey. Nor is it particularly reasonable to commit to all this stuff right from the start as if it's a contractual obligation. It doesn't seem like he has decided in any case in which case this is no different than any other beginning of a relationship, with some doubts. Which doesn't seem especially abnormal to me.


It's when he KNOWS she is getting in deep and wants what he is not sure he wants.. he should come forth with honesty.. I always KNEW I wanted the marrying type.. if a guy wasn't this. I would not want to waste my time.. but true.. today, fewer & fewer women care.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's when he KNOWS she is getting in deep and wants what he is not sure he wants.. he should come forth with honesty.. I always KNEW I wanted the marrying type.. if a guy wasn't this. I would not want to waste my time.. but true.. today, fewer & fewer women care.


Or maybe they do not think they can get it?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> Or maybe they do not think they can get it?


Get what ?? not following...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Get what ?? not following...


Get a family man, someone who will prioritize her and the children.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Based on what you said, I would suggest not being together with your girl friend. Women want security and it looks like this is not where you're headed. You want to live your passions at the expense of a job a financial security. You're lucky, I wish I could do the same. I'm sick of working and would so much like to quit and no longer worry about having to make money. If your hobbies and passions are enough for you, I'm not sure a woman would fit in. She would constantly be looking for security you don't want to give.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It's when he KNOWS she is getting in deep and wants what he is not sure he wants.. he should come forth with honesty.. I always KNEW I wanted the marrying type.. if a guy wasn't this. I would not want to waste my time.. but true.. today, fewer & fewer women care.




I don't think they necessarily don't care, it's just that one can make all kinds of promises, in order to get whatever one wants and then not keep them...or vice versa. We often change our minds as well. I think the "take it easy & see how it goes" is not the worst approach when it comes to relationships and it's easy on everyone. It's also fairly easy to figure out quite soon into the relationship what you are dealing with. 
Also some women like to be "the one" to get their man to drop all their life's ambitions and hobbies just for them...If he tells her, who says she won't find it sexy?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> True, guess I also doubt her "non-materialism", all I have is words and some action at the moment and although she has earned some benefit of the doubt, trust is not fully established. It's going to be ups and downs, even my first business didn't come without cost to my marriage, 84 hour work weeks and I didn't have time for her, and the only time I could squeeze was for our daughter. I don't know what the future will hold but I'm certain of sacrifices. She's a very simple lady, and she has been sheltered, so I question her strength as well.
> 
> My plan Bs are to sustain the downtimes of plan A, but not to sustain myself long-term and definitely not to provide for a family again, I don't have unlimited properties to sell. I'm willing to risk going broke and bankrupt to pursue my dreams, but for that... well, I guess that's another reason why girlfriend feels like a burden to me.


My impression is that you are projecting all of your own doubts and insecurities onto your gf. If you don't want a gf, fine, don't have one. If you want to push the one you have away because she isn't going to pass every ridiculous test you throw at her, then by all means, push her away.

But all this "woe is me because I have to be an x, y, z type of man in order to have a relationship" is all absolutely your own baggage, not hers.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

RD, why for the love of God WHY???? do you keep torturing yourself like this????

You have been looking for reasons to break up with this woman almost as soon as you went from FWB or whatever it was, to boyfriend/girlfriend, despite the fact that she's managed to pass all of your crazy "tests." She sounds like an amazing woman, a woman of character. But you know she wants kids, and you don't want any more kids. Have you talked to her about THAT yet? That's a much bigger problem, Dude.

She's a good woman who has passed your materialistic tests. So she won't care that your income is reduced. A good woman will want your love, time, and attention. Notice how money isn't on that list? She will support you if this is really your dream and your ambition. You're young. Your income level will catch up again, after your education and a few years into your new career. (BTW, I think it's AWESOME that you want to go back to school. Seriously, I am super proud of you.) Even if you can't spend as MUCH time with her as she would like, as long as it is quality time, she will be understanding of that because that is what it means to support you in this new venture.

If you can't appreciate the love and support of a really good woman, and instead view her as a burden, then you need to let her go. Because she's not the one for you, no matter how amazing she is. If you are going to view her as a burden, rather than the joy and respite from the world that a partner should be, then you don't deserve her. Yeah, I said it. 

You. Don't. Deserve. Her.

Why? Because YOUR choice, if you stay in a relationship with this woman, means that SHE will have to make sacrifices of her own in order to make sure that YOU get to live out your dreams and goals. You didn't factor her into the decision making process. It sounds like you didn't consult her. You decided that this is what you want and this is what you are going to do. But your decisions affect her, because she is your girlfriend. But you didn't really think about that. All you're thinking of is how much of a *BURDEN* she will be while you are trying to live our your dreams.

If you really loved this woman, if you have any real intentions of having a future with her, you would have factored her into the decision making process. You would have asked her opinion. She would have a place in your dreams for the future. But that wasn't the case. If you don't see her as a part of your dreams for your life, if you don't see her as a part of your future, you need to let her go, because she deserves a man and partner who will look at her and think, this is the woman I want by my side as I work towards my goals, the woman who will catch me if I fail or falter in my steps, the woman with whom I want to share the fruits of my labor.

Let this poor woman go, so she has a chance to find a man who's deserving of her. If you don't want to let her go, then you need to start being the type of many who deserves a woman like her.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Have I missed a post where it was indicated that she needs to settle down with him & have a family together etc?
Why is there an assumption that every woman wants the same thing? 
Many women are perfectly happy to be "just" girlfriends and share each others company.
Many men have also changed their attitudes over their life times (I met a few die-hard bachelors who later became caring and devoted husbands/fathers etc), depending on the circumstances and depending on the people they met.

I have a different question for the OP: where is the value in keeping all your experiences to yourself and grow old alone?
I am in my mid-thirties and I also made enough so that work is completely optional for me. (I continue working because I enjoy it and because I want to be a good role model for my kids but if I stopped working tomorrow, me and my family would still be taken care of, from the income generated from my investments). I would dread at the prospect of spending the rest of my life alone-ish, surrounded only with my "precious" hobbies. It might be suitable for some people, it would not be for me. I can see the attraction of "freedom" in principle: but I can guarantee the novelty of this will wear off very quickly and then what?
In my opinion the concept of freedom is partly an illusion and money can only buy some of it and up to a point. You need to have enough so that you are not miserable but after a certain point, the increase in happiness is not proportional anymore to the increase in wealth and there is MUCH more long-lasting value in the people you surround yourself with, rather than more material things.

From OP's post it's fairly clear that he met someone he wants to try and be with but for some reason, decided it is more "rational" not to, because he is afraid his freedom may be compromised. I don't really follow the logic and don't see why small steps at a time will compromise his new-found sense of freedom or contradict the goals that his gf may or may not have (of which we know nothing about).


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Guess I'm just cold as ice nowadays


Nope, you are in turmoil.

Your post history, including this thread, says the opposite. I know cold people, you aren't even in the same freezer.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@inmyprime The OP has mentioned this girlfriend on other threads, FYI. That's where I'm pulling all this info from. 

ETA Trust me, there's a lot more to this iceberg than what he's posted in the original post. He's not intentionally leaving info out, he just tends to compartmentalize when he should be connecting the dots.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Nope, you are in turmoil.
> 
> Your post history, including this thread, says the opposite. I know cold people, you aren't even in the same freezer.


Agree, agree, agree.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Nope, you're right, I don't deserve her. Quite frankly I don't even know what I'm doing. Everyday... "what are you doing", "can I call?", "did you eat?", "thinking of you", "miss you", should be a good thing right? I used to appreciate it once, words of affirmation from a spouse, somehow I'm rotted to the core that it flies by me like I'm a ghost. I'm not like this with my daughter or my cat or my mates.

I want to start a new life, a new mountain to climb, even if I have to get down the first one, money means **** to me, it's always been a means to an end, and now I don't have to worry about it anymore - unless of course, I end up with a new family, and it's all going to happen again! No way! Argh! And she knows all this, she knows my reservations, I've never lied to her, I've also been completely transparent with her with my plans, my feelings (or lack of), and my thoughts, and she's holding on, she's following me everywhere. She admits she enjoys the challenge. And I am curious as to what she's going to try to pull - but I'm only taking a peek while she wants to pull me into the plunge.

But I don't like it. Why can't I like it? She's ticked every box, she makes me feel happy, she does everything I want bedside, and yet, I'm frustrated with her. Because of her long-term dreams, that when I asked her how I'm supposed to satisfy that, she says she hopes one day she can change my mind, and pulls the topic back to the present.

And buzz buzz... there we go, she texts me again. And instead of "weeee", I'm like... "what's my next excuse"

... I think I'm going to need some space


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

It sounds like you feel like she's being a little clingy (those things in the first paragraph are said by her, not you, right?) and that may be what's frustrating you. Because she wants/needs more, and you're not sure if you want to give it to her. She's sensed your trepidation, and so she's seeking more emotional security from you, which makes you want to pull away more. It's a bad cycle.

It sounds like you might need some space from her to figure out how you really feel about her and what you really want from this. And she may need to learn how to chill out and recognize that you're on a different page than she is. 

She's more focused on changing your mind than accepting where you are right now and what you're able to give to her. And that's no good. A woman who thinks she will be able to change a man is not a good thing, because for someone to really be able to love you, they need to accept you for who you are, not who they want you to be. And that is something that is giving you pause here, whether you realize it or not. It's a bad thing if you're thinking, "What's my next excuse?" That is a sign that you don't really want to be with this person, or that you need space and you don't feel safe enough emotionally to be honest with her about what you need.

That doesn't make you a bad person. It just means that you're not getting what you need--and neither is she.

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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah I don't even have a chance to miss her, since becoming bf/gf she's become stage 2, borderline stage 3... And she's a worrisome one when it comes to whether or not she accepts me or not, she accepts my goals (single freedom), yet her goals (marriage and kids) contradict mine, and she hasn't given me an answer of how that's going to work except for hoping she can "change my mind" and changing the topic and pulling our minds back to the present "enjoying what we have"

Bah!


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Tests?
> 
> Is that a word that should be used in building a healthy relationship?
> 
> .


Um, women test men all the time, especially in relationships.


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## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> The only love I've come to acknowledge and cherish is the love I share with me and my daughter, but even then I know it has its limits and is conditional, just like the "love" I have for my own immediate family. If it isn't pure, it isn't love. That's my belief. Did I love ex-wife? Did she love me in return? Meh, she only loved me because what I could give her, and me her - once the troubles hit all love is conditional. Nothing is for free, life is no fairytale.
> 
> So I live my life hardened, content with the freedom and none of the expectations of "love". My finances and my daughter's future is secured. No woman will threaten it.
> 
> ...


It all boils down to being involved with a good women, not perfect, but one by your own assessment, as being very good. And, interfacing mentally and physically with her. Or, you can choose being alone with your "self important" thoughts. You can communicate and dance with her, or do the same with the image you see in your full length bathroom mirror. Easy choice for me. Those who travel alone, travel fastest. Those who have a good women on their arm travel in the heat of the day, and slowly. Those who travel alone do so rapidly and fleetingly in the cool night. Savor the light, avoid the dim light.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Jayg14 said:


> Um, women test men all the time, especially in relationships.


Of course they do... and men as well.

My point was simply that as far as relationships go, "tests" and "healthy" don't seem to work well together.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Of course they do... and men as well.
> 
> My point was simply that as far as relationships go, "tests" and "healthy" don't seem to work well together.


I disagree. Read this: https://therationalmale.com/tag/****-tests/


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Jayg14 said:


> I disagree. Read this: https://therationalmale.com/tag/****-tests/


Interesting article... the men I know who test their wives must never have read this.

Happy to give more input if you'd care to open your own thread on this?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Yeah I don't even have a chance to miss her, since becoming bf/gf she's become stage 2, borderline stage 3... And she's a worrisome one when it comes to whether or not she accepts me or not, she accepts my goals (single freedom), yet her goals (marriage and kids) contradict mine, and she hasn't given me an answer of how that's going to work except for hoping she can "change my mind" and changing the topic and pulling our minds back to the present "enjoying what we have"
> 
> Bah!


Ugh. No way I would want to hook up with someone who was waiting around to change me into something else.

You might need to set her straight on that one.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well I've talked to cuddlebunny, reassured my decisions. She supports me all the way, to the point of compromises. Guess she likes me alot more than what I give her credit for. I'll keep her around, but I don't trust that she won't leave. Won't emotionally invest, I'll just play along for now.

I'm starting a new road, she's either with me or she can move on. I would rather regret a broken heart, than regret not going after my dreams and passions. Life is short, my income will be reduced to 5% but I don't care. Anyway if I need more money can always sell.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

FeministInPink said:


> A woman who thinks she will be able to change a man is not a good thing, because for someone to really be able to love you, they need to accept you for who you are, not who they want you to be.


If she keeps going here.. she is going to be very hurt in the end... feeling she wasted so much of her life..


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Well I've talked to cuddlebunny, reassured my decisions. She supports me all the way, to the point of compromises. Guess she likes me alot more than what I give her credit for. I'll keep her around, but I don't trust that she won't leave. Won't emotionally invest, I'll just play along for now.
> 
> I'm starting a new road, she's either with me or she can move on. I would rather regret a broken heart, than regret not going after my dreams and passions. Life is short, my income will be reduced to 5% but I don't care. Anyway if I need more money can always sell.


Dude, your walls are sky high and at least half of you is determined to push away anyone who gets even slightly close to you. 

You might advise that half to talk to the other half. Why do you want to keep her around? Is she just a toy for you to use until you grow bored? Or are you actually hoping for some real connection? 

If it's connection you want, you'll have to lower the walls and stop the endless testing.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I honestly do not know what I truly want as in the end, each part of me wants different things. Part of me feels alive, another part of me won't compromise on freedom, etc. Undecided, it's too early.

Perhaps I'm just curious where this leads, if anything I can be as curious as my cat. She does as she wishes, I can't tell her what to do, she shares with me what she wants, but doesn't ask for much.

With her, I am satisfied - but she goes no further then what I'm willing to give her. If she decides it's not enough, she's free to go anytime. I'm done trying to "encourage" her to leave, it only makes her like me more and it hurts her, and I already made her cry once. Enough of that, any nails she steps on next will be her choice to make, I've made enough warnings.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You'll "keep her around?" 

Oiy vey.

RD, I'm not having a go at you, but do you realize how disrespectful to her that reads? It's like she's a back scratcher - useful to have and better to have than not when there's an itch. 

You used to be totally afraid of any woman turning you into a wallet. If you ever heard her say to another she was "keeping you around" you'd be going ballistic.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> I honestly do not know what I truly want as in the end, each part of me wants different things. Part of me feels alive, another part of me won't compromise on freedom, etc. Undecided, it's too early.
> 
> Perhaps I'm just curious where this leads, if anything I can be as curious as my cat. She does as she wishes, I can't tell her what to do, she shares with me what she wants, but doesn't ask for much.
> 
> With her, I am satisfied - but she goes no further then what I'm willing to give her. If she decides it's not enough, she's free to go anytime. I'm done trying to "encourage" her to leave, it only makes her like me more and it hurts her, and I already made her cry once. Enough of that, any nails she steps on next will be her choice to make, I've made enough warnings.


Maybe you aren't pushing her away literally and vocally, but you are still doing it in your heart. From what you're saying here, there's no way you will ever let her in, nor do you seem all that interested in knowing her either. So it's really just a question of whether she'll keep wanting to hang around you, and the degree to which you will make that difficult for her.

Your title question is whether love can exist, and I can see why you're asking it. For someone who refuses it, of course it can't. Love needs to be nurtured. It needs to be warm. I'll inevitably wither and die in such a frigid environment. 

Absolutely, you must make your own decisions about how you want to live your life, what values are important to you, whether or not you even want to be in a relationship. These are all up to you. But if you should happen to notice a pattern where somehow all women aren't good enough, don't love in exactly the right way, are too shalllow or vain or selfish, ugly, or unworthy in some way, you should know that the actual solution to your problem can likely be found in the mirror.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

I suppose...

* It is safer to be with her, rather than someone you might be inclined to be comfortable with and value deeply.

* Her verbal choice to wait for you to become available and open to the things she wants in her finite life is a relief to your ears, because, after all, if it is a sacrifice, it is her choice, not [yours]. If someone offers you the days of their life with no enforceable strings attached, who are you to say "No. I want you to first be in meaningful service to your values, rather than engaged in a fantasy." Say, if it were your daughter pursuing someone either not interested and attracted enough in her to share and realize some common dreams, would you still like the one accepting her into his/her orbit? (If the answer is no, then how are you really going to like yourself?)


I'm not judging (or so I like to think). Really, you seem like a thoughtful caring guy trying to consciously weigh the sometimes sh!tty choices life sometimes calls on us to make.

If you care enough about her to want to see if you can get to a point where you have compatible intents, then you are better off working consciously together, with a deadline and a plan for what happens after.

Consider how seductive is her offer to orbit you until you change. It's like a deal being made under the table between your biggest fears (of intimacy, interdependence, becoming vulnerable to another fragile and imperfect human being), and hers (fear that she's not good enough, not loveable, not going to find someone that can let her matter to .... and, she may be partial to the notion this is how love is supposed to feel if in her past her parents etc were just as elusive and just out of reach as you).

It is these dealings going on under the table that are the roadblock. Mitigate or remove. But, that requires shining a light on it and focus on it for the duration, and a conscious commitment from you both to see that task through. If one of you looks away and retreats into the more comfortable evasions, you're both screwed.

Working through this together, one way or another, is an opportunity isn't it?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

wild jade said:


> Maybe you aren't pushing her away literally and vocally, but you are still doing it in your heart. From what you're saying here, there's no way you will ever let her in, nor do you seem all that interested in knowing her either. So it's really just a question of whether she'll keep wanting to hang around you, and the degree to which you will make that difficult for her.
> 
> Your title question is whether love can exist, and I can see why you're asking it. For someone who refuses it, of course it can't. Love needs to be nurtured. It needs to be warm. I'll inevitably wither and die in such a frigid environment.
> 
> Absolutely, you must make your own decisions about how you want to live your life, what values are important to you, whether or not you even want to be in a relationship. These are all up to you. But if you should happen to notice a pattern where somehow all women aren't good enough, don't love in exactly the right way, are too shalllow or vain or selfish, ugly, or unworthy in some way, you should know that the actual solution to your problem can likely be found in the mirror.


Oh she's good enough alright, I already know I'm not. At the very least she deserves a chance, whether or not I fall for her is speculation. Not now, no way. First there must be trust. I'll give her the chance to earn it. It is also her choice to take the risk and make her own informed decisions despite knowing the issues we face.

Right now, no way I can give her what she wants ultimately, and not for maybe another 10 years unless I go backwards and back to the industry I'm sick of after bloody ten years. Biological clock? She's not ticking for some reason - she's at the right age for it! And yet again - as I mentioned, her choice! 

Maybe it's her "present-minded" philosophy rubbing off on me, I don't know, but meh it's decided guys. I will respect her decision.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> At the very least she deserves a chance, whether or not I fall for her is speculation. Not now, no way. First there must be trust. I'll give her the chance to earn it.


I'm curious. What would it take for you to actually trust her?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

RD,

I just reread my post above, and regret I didn't make clear in words and tone that it was all speculation on my part. I am often full of sh1t. (I can give references.)



RandomDude said:


> Maybe it's her "present-minded" philosophy rubbing off on me, I don't know, but meh it's decided guys. I will respect her decision.


People compartmentalize. It is not "present-minded" to stay in a relationship hoping the other person will change in the future, ignoring or at least discounting unjustly the degree of risk. That is called denial of a truth in the present.

Of course, who am I to say she hasn't properly factored the risk in; maybe she properly evaluates it day by day.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Who knows, she's cute and acts innocent but she does have a sound mind. It's her responsibility in the end to make her own decisions, I've already been honest with her.

As for trust, it just takes time. We've only been together a few months.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

RD, you have some brilliant advice and feedback on here. And as always, our lovely friend FIP has you pegged. 

You are right, trust does take time, but your barriers are much thicker than most people's. You intentionally seek out flaws and reasons why things should go south. Until you deal with that, no woman will ever earn your trust. There are good people out there who deserve a chance, but trust goes both ways. Even the best woman is going to get tired of defending herself to you.


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## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> When I was young I didn't care about success, what drove me was my daughter. But now that I have enough to set aside for her and myself, I want to go back to being happy go-lucky me!
> 
> My semi retirement involves full time study, a complete career change, as well as getting more free time in the air and maybe become an instructor. I want to pursue my passions, and having a girlfriend feels like a burden.
> 
> She says she will support me in whatever decision I make, why can't I believe that?


Do you trust her. I do. But then, I only like what you have written about her. Reality might not align with her truth-table.


This is such an easy decision for most people. *The caveat is trust. *

*Trust her* to have your back.
*Trust her* with your bat and balls. Will she step out of your ball field and seek another bat for her glove? Will she soon only hit foul balls. Those balls that are attached to you.
*Trust he*r with your money.
*Trust her* to keep her word.
*Trust her* to remain the same. No one stays the same for decades or a lifetime.
*Trust* her to keep you committed. Will you tire of her?

You trust yourself. You can be alone and trust only yourself. Is this what you want? *Are you a Closet Hermit? A loner boner?
*
Do you need a women to complement your life. A women that you can look at proudly. A women you can touch and make love to whenever it suits yours' and her fancy! 
She would be your' women. A women that looks great in a negligee? 

Or can you wait, a few weeks at a time while you find another one, groom her, and then when she gets too close, dump her? How many women will you go through before you realize that this is *not quite satisfying*. When grooming you must be an actor, not a genuine man. Some men like the chase, not the capture. Kinda like a dog chasing a car. What does the dog do with the car when he catches up to it?

She said she is happy with you. And happy with your plans. How much more happy can you downplay and ignore?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Erm... it's like, 3 months or so... we're still newish 
Actually a little more than 3 months... I've known her 6 months total, 3 months as friends.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Erm... it's like, 3 months or so... we're still newish
> Actually a little more than 3 months... I've known her 6 months total, 3 months as friends.


Right. So give her a shot. Continue being honest with each other; that is a great place to start! Let her in a little at a time; allow her to do the same for you. And stop looking for reasons why it won't work.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Nah, not doing that anymore. I've done enough to let her know sticking with me is a bad idea but she's sticking with me regardless so whatever. Her problem 

I can't choose to trust or mistrust somebody, if someone earns my trust they also have my fear because their word has power. Cuddlebunny is still, well, just a cuddlebunny. Let time run its course.


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> Nah, not doing that anymore. I've done enough to let her know sticking with me is a bad idea but she's sticking with me regardless so whatever. Her problem
> 
> I can't choose to trust or mistrust somebody, if someone earns my trust they also have my fear because their word has power. Cuddlebunny is still, well, just a cuddlebunny. Let time run its course.


Fair enough, RD.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Nah, not doing that anymore. I've done enough to let her know sticking with me is a bad idea but she's sticking with me regardless so whatever. Her problem


LOL. I used to say things like that .... 20 years ago. 

As long as you are honest and true to yourself, then I think you're absolutely right to let her make her own decisions.

Just be aware, though, that you really are actively pushing people away from you. And while this may make sense to you as a short term protective strategy, it's not necessarily the best approach for the long term. There's lots to be gained by breaking down the walls and letting people in.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Romantic love doe not exist. What people call love is really sexual attraction that your brain has rationalized because it doesn't want to acknowledge the primal nature of pure lust.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Love has nothing to do with logic regardless of your personal experiences. We are genetically hardwired to be attracted to mates who we think would have good genes to mix with ours. For many that means beautiful women or handsome men. Women are attracted to men with power, money or are good looking. If those types are unobtainable, we lower our sights and find someone who would make a good mate, live through childbirth and be able to raise the children until they too can pass on their genes, which include a mixture of their parents. Aside from the obvious signs of good health such as beauty and a demonstration that they are a good provider, wealth and /or power, no one really knows why the rest of us are attracted to those we are attracted to.

Attraction is a mixture of chemicals in our brain. So is love. We cannot will ourselves to feel attraction or love. Love comes from a mixture of feel good chemicals that make us feel pleasure even just thinking about those we love. It makes us overlook their faults. We want to be with them as much as possible. Try to look at someone and fall in love when love does not naturally occur. Kind of hard to do, if at all possible. 

You seem to be confusing romantic love with familial love. The love we have for our kids is not the same type of love we have for a wife, for example. They are too different things that we call love. We love certain books, movies, foods, etc., but it is not romantic love. Some may never experience romantic love for some reason. It is all genetic and perhaps whatever combination of genes that makes us feel romantic love for another person, does not exists in some. Who knows. It is interesting to note that Oxytocin released during sex to emotionally bond a couple, is the same hormone that bonds a parent to a child, mostly the mother. Read this to see the stages of passion. It makes for an interesting read and explains why people fall out of love.

How long does passion last? The four stages of love - TODAY.com


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

An old TAM'er no longer with us (can't remember who) summed it up best:

Love is chemicals in the brain acting as a choice.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

It's been almost a year, I still can't say I love my girlfriend. Perhaps it's the uncertainty of our future that is proving a wall preventing any deeper feelings from developing, or maybe she's just not the one. I've dodged her tests effectively thus far but she's getting smarter. At first when she confessed her love I just sang to her "I want to know what love is" and got away with not recipocating her feelings. But recently she asked me for "signs" I encountered that made me feel like we were meant to be together. Took me hours to even think up one. I failed. Still I came up with two that satisfied her but I sense she suspects that she loves me more than I love her - if I love her at all.

I've always been a hard-ass though, even with ex-wife. Maybe it's just not within me to fall in love?

I put alot of conditions in dating which pretty much made sure I wouldn't fall for anyone, I kept the ones I was attracted to as FWBs or friends-with-benefits, but always found excuses not to love them. My girlfriend began as a FWB but she passed every single one of my impossible tests, and earned my trust. All of it was abit of experiment as well to see if I could fall in love, especially after meeting someone who reaches my impossible standards.

But the experiment itself... well, results speak for themselves. In the end I question if the ability to love is just not within me, and I should focus on other aspects of life and make more realistic promises in the future, and stick to what seems to suit me better; FWBs and casual sex, nothing more.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

RD, everyone has the capacity to love. And that includes you. I know how much you love your daughter.

The only thing that prevents you from being open to love is yourself. Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UoMXF73j0c]

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