# weight quandry



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term, not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person, or if I'm just a bad ender.

One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.

So when you meet one of those women who are stunning, and sexy but overweight, are you able to see yourselves remaining sexually attracted to her? Part of this is just my insecurity speaking, but part is from me personal heartfelt experience - my ex W was at one point well into obese territory (though she was able to carry it much better than most women could, she could easily hide 20 or 30 pounds). I was never repulsed by her and genuinely found her remarkably beautiful, but seeing her undressed did nothing to evoke lust in me - there was just no sex appeal, but nor was she ever seductive or tried to be alluring for me, but I think it was mostly she didn't have the feminine hourglass shape (I know, I'm being shallow here, but having her curves go in the right direction seems to be a big thing to my sexual response).

Would you pursue someone who was very attractive for the time being but you suspect will not do it for you a few years down the road? Or would you save both of you the heartache and leave the beautiful woman be?


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Fat Kills… Marriages Dead « Chateau Heartiste

I don't believe it's being shallow. Marriage isn't a roommate agreement. How are you going to have sex with a person who you aren't attracted to? I am a bit like you in this way.

I believe just as a man, if he wishes keep the physical attraction alive, should stay fit or at least not overweight, the woman should do the same too. Even more so. So sports are a must for any couple.

That being said even when she has a perfect body, doesn't mean she will evoke lust in you every time every day. Crushes to your wife will come and go, come and go.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Considering that marriage is allegedly a lifetime proposition, you'll either have to remain single or accept the fact that whoever you end up won't keep their same appearance forever. You have no guarantee that your partner will look the same an hour from now. They have no guarantee that you will. It is for certain they won't be looking at the same "you" for the next 70 years, either. Some days they will look better than others. Folks gain weight, lose weight, they get sick, they get burned, they get pregnant, lose limbs, lose hair, grow hair, get hit by trucks, bit by dogs, you-name-it. Physical attraction is important and it's great but that had best not be your primary selection criteria or you're dead in the water before you get started. You can work out every day, eat nuts and berries, look like Adonis on Monday and a flaming car crash can leave you looking like a monster on Tuesday. Post-crash, you'd still be the same person and would still need love. Want to get laid? Pick a hottie. Want to be a husband? Pick someone you'd be proud to live with no matter what they looked like and who would do the same for you.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Lon said:


> I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term, not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person, or if I'm just a bad ender.
> 
> One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.
> 
> ...


I hope you don't mind an answer from a woman's point of view.
I'm not a delicate woman in body.I never have been.I've always had the hourglass,round butt,thicker legs.I'll never be those thin girls with delicate features and fragile,graceful figures.I accepted that ages ago.
But if my body type ever made a potential partner stop and think 'I may not be attracted to her body after a while',I'd rather have him leave me alone.
My figure isn't changing,with the exception of a 20lbs weight loss over the years,I never go over a certain weight and I never fall under a certain weight.I bounce back and forth but I'm always curvy and firm.That isn't changing.I'd be devastated if I was with a man long term and he knew at the beginning he may not be into me later on in the relationship and I found out about that.

I don't think wanting a certain body type is shallow at all.No one can tell you to find something attractive just because they think you should.I just think if you have a feeling you won't be into her in a few years because of her body then leave the beautiful woman alone and move on to someone else.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't think wanting a certain body type is shallow at all.No one can tell you to find something attractive just because they think you should.I just think if you have a feeling you won't be into her in a few years because of her body then leave the beautiful woman alone and move on to someone else.


I know this, and it's a huge part of the the reason I haven't dated anyone (aside from the fact that I just really suck at dating). I don't want to be alone, but I don't ever want to marry again and I'm pretty sure I don't ever want a LTR again.

So my question was more for the guys about ever dating someone you have no intention to marry and spend the rest of your life with. I'm looking so far down the road all the time I just need help trying to actually live in the moment but then I get consumed with guilt, and so if I was to take the moral high road that means sentencing myself to a life of solitude and loneliness. The fact that I would even consider this, and the fact that I think I will lose my sexual desire for whomever I would end up with even has me wondering if I'm asexual.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

I think there are overlapping ranges that can combine to make this work...or not. There is the physical beauty of a person and there is the spirit of that person. I think we tend to allow for a lack of one if there is enough of the other. Lon, would it make a difference if the "not amazing looking woman" had great energy and was a great lover?


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## Shooboomafoo (Mar 30, 2011)

I found a girl really attractive who was sort of heavy, but her attitude,,, was just beyond anything Id ever witnessed. There was a real intellectual connection that made her very comfortable to be around and talk to. LTR is something I do know I eventually want, but am definitely a bit saddle sore from the last long ride, so something keeps telling me to goooo sloooooww.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I agree with another poster, that you both fare better if you are like-minded when it comes to what is important regarding lifestyle. 

Make no apologies for what you are, or are not, attracted to.

As for 'settling'; the only woman you should settle for, is the right one ... for the long term.

Finding the right one means meeting, dating, connecting and communicating with women who ultimately aren't going to be the right one.

You have trouble with the break up?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Shoto1984 said:


> I think there are overlapping ranges that can combine to make this work...or not. There is the physical beauty of a person and there is the spirit of that person. I think we tend to allow for a lack of one if there is enough of the other. Lon, would it make a difference if the "not amazing looking woman" had great energy and was a great lover?


Well for me to even be attracted to someone they certainly have a beautiful spirit. I guess in this particular case I'm wondering about the heavy lookers - women who are incredibly sexy in spirit and also are very physically beautiful despite a lot of extra pounds - and while this is not very common I have found there are few women who are drop dead gorgeous no matter what their weight, and I want to ask guys who have similar experience with this their take on it.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

You are over thinking this brother. Sometimes you just have to sit back and see where the ride takes you.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

joe kidd said:


> You are over thinking this brother. Sometimes you just have to sit back and see where the ride takes you.


:iagree:

I used to look at my wife's mom and sisters before we were married and still dating.
They were all overweight and the same thoughts like the OP haunted me.
But when you're in love everything else takes second place.
Today , many years after ,still sexy , fit and trim...


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Ultimately, only you can decide what you need from a relationship. But I think keeping in the back of your mind that this won't work out long term, when you are giving the woman clues it -might- be long-term is kind of a bait-and-switch kind of thing. If you are honest about it being casual, and about how your visual needs play a big part in whether or not it could be long term, than go for it. You might find a woman able to fulfill those qualities, you might not. 

Just don't be deceptive about it. Don't tell a woman the things she wants to hear to get her to sleep with you in the short-term, knowing things won't last. You should be be honest about it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm certainly not trying to give out deceptive clues, but I don't think I am aware enough of the signals I'm sending. I don't knowingly bait and switch, and I certainly don't deceive for sex, OTOH I feel guilty and immoral telling women whom I'm attracted to that I'm sexually attracted to them unless I can see myself being devoted to them long term, which is why I've never had casual sex, and which is keeping me way too guarded to be able to just sit back and enjoy the ride.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Lon, I have some of the same issues as a woman. My thing is not weight but health. If someone isn't taking care of their health, that really concerns me and I know I could not be in it for the long term, because of the obvious long term effects of failing to invest in health. Could it be that you're using weight as a proxy for health?
I know for me, good health is a priority. I cut some slack if someone is on a path to health, and on the opposite end I could never be with someone whose #1 thing was training to run triathlons or doing extreme sports. Somewhere in there is a healthy balance. 

I realize that I'm a bit traumatized by losing someone to a brain hemorrhage, who maybe didn't take care of his health the way he could have. He was active, but there were other factors where he could have paid better attention to overall health. 

I don't think it's wrong of you to feel the way you do, but I also think that you are going way too far in trying to look out for the other person in a relationship...maybe trust the women to look out for themselves a bit more in any given situation, you don't have to be 100% responsible for everything that happens. Just your end of it.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Women have sex with guys that they don't plan on spending the rest of their lives with ... especially after a previously failed marriage. Almost everyone changes their paradigm in light of those events.

I was in a relationship that I certainly thought was going to be for the long haul. Told her I loved her ... one week later she dumped me. Freaked her out.

It's good to have a plan. It's also good to realize that things seldom go according to plan.

Relationships take their course. I have come to terms with and embraced whatever that course may be.

Ending a relationship with someone doesn't make you evil ... it makes you honest.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> So my question was more for the guys about ever dating someone you have no intention to marry and spend the rest of your life with.


Look you need to pursue whatever priorities you have.

It is OK to not want a long term relationship. I"m married, but if I ever weren't married, I'd never want to get married again. I'd date women who I was sexually attracted to and who I had a good time with. When I was not longer sexually attracted or having a good time, I'd move on.

I think this comes down to you being a bad ender, generally uncomfortable with yourself, and not being "integrated". It seems you are uncomfortable with your true desires and have serious hangups when it comes to speaking what you truely want and feel.

When you begin to date someone, make your intentions clear. Don't mislead them, don't waste their time, just be clear about what you are looking for. If she is not comfortable with what you want, then you both just move on. "I am looking for someone to spend time with, to have a good time, but not for a monogomous long term relationship".

You have to realize there are millions upon millions of women with whom you can have a good time, in bed and out of bed. If things don't work out with ONE of them, it's NOT A BIG DEAL!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A life skill mastered by any successful husband is the ability to look at a "2" and behave as if it is a "10", to accept a kid's scribbled drawing and gush over it like it's the Mona Lisa. It aint lying. It's building up the people you lead and who depend on you. It's learning how to be content with and proud of what you have.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"...my ex W was at one point well into obese territory (though she was able to carry it much better than most women could, she could easily hide 20 or 30 pounds)"

Are you saying 20 or 30 pounds is "well into obese territory"? Was your ex-w only 4'10"?


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "...my ex W was at one point well into obese territory (though she was able to carry it much better than most women could, she could easily hide 20 or 30 pounds)"
> 
> Are you saying 20 or 30 pounds is "well into obese territory"? Was your ex-w only 4'10"?


I googled clinical obesity and 30 lbs is considered clinically obese for a 5'9" adult. 

Height Weight Range BMI Considered 
5' 9" 124 lbs or less Below 18.5 Underweight 
125 lbs to 168 lbs 18.5 to 24.9 Healthy weight 
169 lbs to 202 lbs 25.0 to 29.9 Overweight 
203 lbs or more 30 or higher Obese


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

OK but 30 pounds isn't "well into" obese territory. It is barely skimming the lowest side of obese territory.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> OK but 30 pounds isn't "well into" obese territory. It is barely skimming the lowest side of obese territory.


Sorry. I misread the chart. It's 30 BMI, not 30 lbs overweight. My bad.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> "...my ex W was at one point well into obese territory (though she was able to carry it much better than most women could, she could easily hide 20 or 30 pounds)"
> 
> Are you saying 20 or 30 pounds is "well into obese territory"? Was your ex-w only 4'10"?


no you misunderstood, she was 5'-7.5 and 150 when we started dating, when she was 175 she still looked 150, when she was 190 people didn't believe she could possibly be that heavy, when she was 9 months pregnant she was 240. For most of the years after pregnancy she was in the 190's.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Saki said:


> Look you need to pursue whatever priorities you have.
> 
> It is OK to not want a long term relationship. I"m married, but if I ever weren't married, I'd never want to get married again. I'd date women who I was sexually attracted to and who I had a good time with. When I was not longer sexually attracted or having a good time, I'd move on.
> 
> ...


yes this is a big part of it for me, I've always been this way, part of my niceguy glitch, and as much as may be able to change by working on it, I'm still this way, and this is why I want to work on it, instead of getting myself into another permanent relationship that takes me years to figure out isn't going to work for me.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Lon said:


> I know this, and it's a huge part of the the reason I haven't dated anyone (aside from the fact that I just really suck at dating). I don't want to be alone, but I don't ever want to marry again and I'm pretty sure I don't ever want a LTR again.
> 
> So my question was more for the guys about ever dating someone you have no intention to marry and spend the rest of your life with. I'm looking so far down the road all the time I just need help trying to actually live in the moment but then I get consumed with guilt, and so if I was to take the moral high road that means sentencing myself to a life of solitude and loneliness. The fact that I would even consider this, and the fact that I think I will lose my sexual desire for whomever I would end up with even has me wondering if I'm asexual.


I think you're contradicting yourself here as well as painting things in far too black and white a light. 

If you aren't interested in marriage or a LTR, then what does it matter if you lose attraction? Then you date a month or a year or five until one or the other of you isn't into it anymore and then move on. 

It sounds too like you feel your options are either lifetime commitments or anonymous one-night stands. That's not the case at all. You can be in an exclusive and caring relationship that involves sex without either one of you expecting to grow old together. I think you'd find that there are plenty of women that have been burned and feel the way you do about the future. That doesn't mean a lifetime of sitting on the couch alone.

If another LTR is what you really are looking for or expecting though, then like Deejo said, you have to find someone that shares your interests and priorities in diet, activity, appearance, etc. When those are the same, then I feel like you may both change some as you age, but that the attraction stays there because you're both invested in doing your best to stay attractive.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

So...Lon... how much of a stud-muffin are _you_? 










I ask that not to be a pr1ck.. but to raise the obvious point of wondering if you are ever going to be able to get past the superficial? Before you know it... you both are going to be 65... guess when you are both sagging in unfortunate places and perhaps getting squishy in others that sex is going to be a real problem-o? Will the missus or current squeeze wish she had a younder stud-muffin since you are no longer dinging her bell? (all those wrinkles....eeewww.)

This has nothing to do with fat I am guessing. None.

I dont know. I do know that for me.. even though my wife is very good looking... that great sex starts and ends in the head. My feeling is not that you are asexual as you say, but if you are forever stuck in what I will call (for a lack of any better term) a juvenile (Thats not what I mean) or perhaps strictly physical requirement for arousal than you will not be able to let the groovy goodness of of really fulfilling sex that goes far beyond your basic toe-curling orgasm(s). Know what I mean? You can cum so hard you pull a muscle.. but it gets pretty hollow eventually if you are really only doing it with yourself.

Funny thing about my wife...or my thinking rather...is when I look at her now.. and I know this sounds hyperbolic and maudlin... I really see her as when I met her as a fresh faced 22 year old. Yeah she has packed on a few pounds in the trunk - but oh man, she still has it. 25 years of practice and yes.. she knows how to get me going.

Let me ask you one other thing... have you ever been attracted to someone because you found them irresistable, funny, smart, strong, witty, etc etc? Yeah - we all know fantastic 'parts' catch our eye.. but the person holds the attention right?

perhaps I am totally missing your point. Seems to me your only problem... and not to be unkind about it.... is you. You are basically saying 'females get unattractive'.

I guess it depends on what you are looking at - and how hung up you are going to be about it. One night stand? I am with you. Otherwise... sorry. If you are going in having decided that this is only a 6 month fling - then you have answered your own question. Hopefully you can keep the procession going until you reach 80.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> It sounds too like you feel your options are either lifetime commitments or anonymous one-night stands. That's not the case at all. *You can be in an exclusive and caring relationship that involves sex without either one of you expecting to grow old together.* I think you'd find that there are plenty of women that have been burned and feel the way you do about the future. That doesn't mean a lifetime of sitting on the couch alone.


I'm really having a hard time accepting and believing the bolded part. I hear people say this, but I just have yet to meet a single woman in real life who would ever admit this. It seems like its been so drilled into my head that even if a woman were to say this there is still an intrinsic expectation that you play along anyway, and I'm way to honest with women to play games.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lon, I can assure you that millions of women have sexual, happy and romantic relationships that they know will not last into long term relationships.

But if you refuse to believe this then of course you will not find such a woman.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Lon said:


> I'm really having a hard time accepting and believing the bolded part. I hear people say this, but I just have yet to meet a single woman in real life who would ever admit this. It seems like its been so drilled into my head that even if a woman were to say this there is still an intrinsic expectation that you play along anyway, and I'm way to honest with women to play games.


I'll do some field research for ya, and see how it goes, lol.

I would say that (don't want a long-term commitment meaning til death do us part) and the reason is, my needs in a relationship right now don't include moving in together full time, but having time to spend together when my kids aren't with me. I'm not looking for someone to be their step dad. I want a relationship for myself, separate from my life with my kids. I don't want to muck up my family and work life by bringing another adult into it with the premise of a lifelong commitment. I just can't make those kind of promises to anyone. I don't want to and I don't see the need to either.

When my kids are grown in another 9 years, I'll probably have a very different lifestyle than what I have now. So any person I would be involved with now might not be compatible with me a decade from now. I mean, who in their right mind would want to pack up and move to Mongolia in 2022? And be able to say, this year or next, that they'll commit to doing that? 

I also don't think that endings (vs. the term breakup) need to be harsh, or even negative.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Lon said:


> I'm really having a hard time accepting and believing the bolded part.


I kind of agree with you here. But goes with what I was saying... I think that in the end... good sex is almost a by-product of a long-term healthy relationship.

If its just satisfying a physical urge. Meh. It will fade away... especially if words like 'expectation', 'long term', 'committment' (etc) are like ongoing doses of salt-peter in your kool-aid.

(Note to self: today I did something that has never happend in my adult life. I used the word 'meh' to describe sex.)


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> So...Lon... how much of a stud-muffin are _you_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm no stud muffin, when married I never felt a tinge of uncertainty though, I loved my ex and saw myself growing old with her, flaws and all, even the physical traits that wouldn't have attracted me to her if she were someone else.

It's now later in life and I know my problem is myslef, but I know with certainty that I can be attracted to the non-superficial, my uncertainty is if I can do without ever having access to just a taste of the superficial. And I'm truly not that picky - a pretty face makes me go googoo and endear me to a lady, and one or two feminine traits (curvy bottom or waist) is enough to keep me lustful (and I see plenty of old ladies that I think I could spend the rest of my life lusting for). Maybe I'm not picky enough? Maybe if I only went for ones that are the entire package I wouldn't have to doubt my ability to stay attracted to them, and I would only have to worry about keeping myself attractive to her?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lon, I can assure you that millions of women have sexual, happy and romantic relationships that they know will not last into long term relationships.
> 
> But if you refuse to believe this then of course you will not find such a woman.


It's not that I refuse to believe this, just that I am not meeting the kind of woman that shares this value, but then I don't get many dates at all so I'm sure I have to change my game plan and find somewhere else to look (or maybe I should just shut up and put out and let relationships just acquiesce on their own)


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I'll do some field research for ya, and see how it goes, lol.
> 
> I would say that (don't want a long-term commitment meaning til death do us part) and the reason is, my needs in a relationship right now don't include moving in together full time, but having time to spend together when my kids aren't with me. I'm not looking for someone to be their step dad. I want a relationship for myself, separate from my life with my kids. I don't want to muck up my family and work life by bringing another adult into it with the premise of a lifelong commitment. I just can't make those kind of promises to anyone. I don't want to and I don't see the need to either.
> 
> ...


So then what does this look like in practice? What words do you actually use to express that view when dating? Because any time the conversation has gotten to that point the women (divorced and never married alike) I've talked to all say "I'm looking for something serious, I sowed my wild oats when I was younger I don't want to play the field I want to find someone to grow old with".


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

I realize that is stream of conciousness there friend.. but you seem all over the map. from 'not picky' to 'just a taste' to 'curvy bottom' to 'the entire package' to 'I can be attracted to the non-superficial' to 'my problem is myself'.

I would say relax. If you fall into a great relationship... no need to panic and say 'bad move'. Nobody cn predict the future.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> yes this is a big part of it for me, I've always been this way, part of my niceguy glitch, and as much as may be able to change by working on it, I'm still this way, and this is why I want to work on it, instead of getting myself into another permanent relationship that takes me years to figure out isn't going to work for me.


Society tells you it isn't ok to not like a girl cause she's fat. 

Society is full of sh1t.

You are afraid of what other people will think of you. Don't let your fear of disapproval rule your life and keep you from being happy.


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## dormant (Apr 3, 2012)

Lon said:


> I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term, not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person, or if I'm just a bad ender.
> 
> One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.
> 
> ...


I feel your pain. Every woman I've even as much dated for an extended period of time, has gotten fat. I have concluded it is me. So, if I become single and you are a lady who wants to gain saome weight....I'm your man!


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> I'm really having a hard time accepting and believing the bolded part. I hear people say this, but I just have yet to meet a single woman in real life who would ever admit this. It seems like its been so drilled into my head that even if a woman were to say this there is still an intrinsic expectation that you play along anyway, and I'm way to honest with women to play games.


Yeah like I said, society is doing you no favors. Unfortunately society and reality don't mix all that well.

Google "the law of attraction" and contemplate how that plays into this equation.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Women aren't going to openly tell you that they are willing to have sex with you, but aren't banking on a lifetime together. 

Won't happen. Don't let that cross your mind.

I came to a simple belief system.

If a woman has sex with me, it's because she WANTS to have sex with me. If she has expectations or beliefs outside the scope of that event ... it ain't my problem. I don't think about what it 'means' beyond, she is attracted to me and feels safe enough to desire intimacy.

None of my sex is meaningless. None of it. Don't much care for how others would choose to label it, or try to label me. I'm not out trying to date women and have sex with them. I'm dating women and sex becomes part of the relationship based upon our connection ... for however long that connection lasts.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Lon said:


> I'm really having a hard time accepting and believing the bolded part. I hear people say this, but I just have yet to meet a single woman in real life who would ever admit this. It seems like its been so drilled into my head that even if a woman were to say this there is still an intrinsic expectation that you play along anyway, and I'm way to honest with women to play games.


The thing is, you can't control what motivates people to say things. You're putting words and meanings into the mouths of women you haven't even met yet and assuming that you know better than they do what they really want. 

All you can do ever is be up front about what you want and expect. It's in their hands whether they're on the same page and how/if they communicate that to you.

Just out of curiousity--have you ever dated seriously anyone besides your ex? It sounds so much like you're expecting to want or have to propose marriage on your first date, otherwise it's all just pointless game-playing.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Deejo said:


> ...If a woman has sex with me, it's because she WANTS to have sex with me...


That is the honest truth. Hard to find any fault with that logic.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

anotherguy said:


> That is the honest truth. Hard to find any fault with that logic.


Point being, that post marriage, there is a distinct difference between a woman that is choosing to have sex with a partner that she believes she is going to spend a lifetime with, versus a woman that wants to find a partner with whom she feels comfortable and safe enough with to be sexual.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> The thing is, you can't control what motivates people to say things. You're putting words and meanings into the mouths of women you haven't even met yet and assuming that you know better than they do what they really want.
> 
> All you can do ever is be up front about what you want and expect. It's in their hands whether they're on the same page and how/if they communicate that to you.
> 
> Just out of curiousity--have you ever dated seriously anyone besides your ex? It sounds so much like you're expecting to want or have to propose marriage on your first date, otherwise it's all just pointless game-playing.


Believe me I'm not deliberately trying to attribute anything untrue at all, I just want to understand if there are hidden meanings behind any of this which I'm unable to see, which is why I'm asking these questions aloud.

Yes, I am very inexperienced at dating, two LTRs, two short dating relationships since separating which I ended, and maybe 3 or 4 other casual first one on one dates in my entire life.

I certainly don't want to propose on a first date at all, I just get this overwhelming sense that is what I'm being sized up for on a date, and also what I'm supposed to be in it for, and I don't know how to comprehend dating being anything other than courtship (and I don't know where this stems from because logically everything you all are saying makes so much more sense).


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Lon said:


> I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term,* not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person*, or if I'm just a bad ender.
> 
> One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.
> 
> ...


I would bet this is the problem. If you consider her stunning and sexy you are already attracted despite her weight. The problem may be other characteristics you are "forcing" yourself to accept. There are men who like more shapely, or larger women .


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Lon said:


> I know this, and it's a huge part of the the reason I haven't dated anyone (aside from the fact that I just really suck at dating). I don't want to be alone, but I don't ever want to marry again and I'm pretty sure I don't ever want a LTR again.
> 
> *So my question was more for the guys about ever dating someone you have no intention to marry and spend the rest of your life with. I'm looking so far down the road all the time I just need help trying to actually live in the moment but then I get consumed with guilt, and so if I was to take the moral high road that means sentencing myself to a life of solitude and loneliness.* The fact that I would even consider this, and the fact that I think I will lose my sexual desire for whomever I would end up with even has me wondering if I'm asexual.


How could you possibly know without spending significant time with a person if they are a possible life partner? Nothing to feel guilty about unless you go into it knowing it will never be the case and give an otherwise impression.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Lon said:


> Believe me I'm not deliberately trying to attribute anything untrue at all, I just want to understand if there are hidden meanings behind any of this which I'm unable to see, which is why I'm asking these questions aloud.
> 
> Yes, I am very inexperienced at dating, two LTRs, two short dating relationships since separating which I ended, and maybe 3 or 4 other casual first one on one dates in my entire life.
> 
> I certainly don't want to propose on a first date at all, I just get this overwhelming sense that is what I'm being sized up for on a date, and also what I'm supposed to be in it for, and I don't know how to comprehend dating being anything other than courtship (and I don't know where this stems from because logically everything you all are saying makes so much more sense).


Well first off, dating is at its very core a process of sizing up the other person. Even if white picket fences aren't the ultimate goal, dating is still a process of figuring out if the person across the table is compatible with you--for however long it may last. And that happens on both sides, or at least it should. But until you know someone well, you pretty much have to take what they say at face value. 

I would actually find it pretty condescending and arrogant if I found out that someone I was dating was somehow convinced that I didn't mean what I'm saying and that he knew what I _really_ meant when I say that I want someone to hang out and have fun with and that I'm not looking for marriage and carpools in the burbs. 

Now might I someday meet someone that I can see something longer term with? Sure. But that's a different conversation should the stars fall into perfect alignment to make that happen. Things could certainly change, but that doesn't make it right to assume that's a natural progression or even the natural goal of the dating process.


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Lon;1402469[B said:


> ]*So then what does this look like in practice? ** What words do you actually use to express that view when dating? *[/B] Because any time the conversation has gotten to that point the women (divorced and never married alike) I've talked to all say "I'm looking for something serious, I sowed my wild oats when I was younger I don't want to play the field I want to find someone to grow old with".


If you want or hope to find someone to grow old with you say...."I would like that too but dont want to rush into things. I prefer to take things slowly" or " I'm at a place where I just need to focus on me and explore. I am not ready for that " or something along those lines that feels comfortable to you. Be honest. She will make her own decisions from there.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Sounds to me... 

like you are waiting for someone to reinforce your misconceptions which would allow you to avoid having to face your fear of having an intimate relationship with someone and risk making yourself vulnerable.

You consistantly attempt to apply flawed logic loops to observations that go against your paradime. In other words, you aren't willing to hear anything other than what you want to hear.

But then again, I like to read between the lines.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Dude ... get out there and hit that sh!t like a ninth inning home run!

I hope that was sufficiently motivational and inappropriate.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Lon said:


> So then what does this look like in practice? What words do you actually use to express that view when dating? Because any time the conversation has gotten to that point the women (divorced and never married alike) I've talked to all say "I'm looking for something serious, I sowed my wild oats when I was younger I don't want to play the field I want to find someone to grow old with".


I say, I'm going to do my PhD after taking a short break upon graduation, that I'm going to Mongolia this summer for an entire month, that my best friends are guys, and that I intend to live wherever my work takes me to when my kids are on their own. I also point out that I have a long tradition of taking project work and that I will almost never settle down geographically. Then I just let the guy figure it out. If, for instance, he's a real estate broker, licensed to sell real estate in only one state, I don't need to say anything about what I expect from the relationship. If the guy sticks around, then he's clearly amenable to my intentions. If not, who cares what he's actually looking for, all I care about is having painted the picture. It's easy enough to do that when dating, the first few dates, talking about your dreams and aspirations. The simple question "Where do you see yourself in 10 years?" can be a huge eye-opener. I pity the traditional guy who asks me that! Then again, sometimes it's the home boy looking for adventure who sees that while he might not know the ropes of living the way I do and will, might think about signing on and sailing under his own steam (I'm not going to support a spouse abroad, he better have his own thing that's portable as mine.)

And I don't feel apologetic about it at all. The same way I wouldn't want a date who wants to buy a home and look towards retirement in 10 years and playing golf, going snowmobiling, etc. That's not for me, but I don't think someone should have to apologize for wanting it for themselves! It's information I use to decide how close I want to get to the person, the same as they can use the information I give them about me. If they think they're going to change me or I'm all talk, well, they're going to be in for a big disappointment down the road, but it's not as though I lied to them!


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Clearly Lon, you need to study up on geography. Find a place and use it to your advantage, lol. (It's not like I'm doing it intentionally, but it does seem to work!)


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Dude ... get out there and hit that sh!t like a ninth inning home run!
> 
> I hope that was sufficiently motivational and inappropriate.


:iagree:
Aside from the hit that [email protected], unless of course, you're honest and she's down with that. None of that manipulative bs though which doesnt seem to be you. Its good that you care but you are getting in your own way and I do agree with Saki.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I'm impressed that having seeded the word, "paradigm" it is showing up more and more on the forum. 

Lon, you could use this word to your advantage. If you want to end a relationship that's getting too complex, start referring to a 'paradigm shift.' :-o Say, if 'Mongolia' doesn't work.

I think the root of all this is that you're in some kind of holding pattern, bound in by various parameters. You don't want to make any decisions or commitments because intuitively, you know you're not in your own 'right place' yet, and any commitment or serious involvement is going to pin you down to a place you'd rather just be passing through. Find your passion and your own life meaning and put it first, then everything else, including relationship management, will fall into place.

What IS your passion? It absolutely cannot be another person, I mean, your inner passion...what is your purpose in life as you perceive/feel it?


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I'm impressed that having seeded the word, "paradigm" it is showing up more and more on the forum.
> 
> Lon, you could use this word to your advantage. If you want to end a relationship that's getting too complex, start referring to a 'paradigm shift.' :-o Say, if 'Mongolia' doesn't work.
> 
> ...



Well isn't that the million dollar question?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Trenton, it's close to the mark, yes I am insecure but I have always been so, it is my paradigm (I also happen to be quite nice by the way). But yes it makes it difficult to know what I have to offer, because what I've always had to offer is what I perceive other people need, and to tailor my offerings as best I can, and I don't even feel bad about that. As for my own needs, I struggle to identify even the basic ones. But female companionship and closeness (not even sex, but also not excluding sex) is most certainly a real need I have come to identify through lack of. Also male companionship is a need that I also tend to neglect and suffer for. I don't want to be needy though, that is my big fear.


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Trenton said:


> My personal take on it in regards to you may not be what you want to hear and I'm not a dude so there's always that...but...
> 
> *This nice guy thing you have going on stems from insecurity not actually being a nice guy.*You see, you want the 10 who is always the ten in order to evoke lust but you think you deserve a 4 and so will always find yourself wondering why you can't be happy with a 4.
> 
> ...


Yes, and this is my main issue with the whole "nice" guy paradigm. Its not about being nice its all about insecurity.


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Lon said:


> Trenton, it's close to the mark, yes I am insecure but I have always been so, it is my paradigm (I also happen to be quite nice by the way). But yes it makes it difficult to know what I have to offer, because what I've always had to offer is what I perceive other people need, and to tailor my offerings as best I can, and I don't even feel bad about that. *As for my own needs, I struggle to identify even the basic ones. But female companionship and closeness (not even sex, but also not excluding sex) is most certainly a real need I have come to identify through lack of. Also male companionship is a need that I also tend to neglect and suffer for. I don't want to be needy though, that is my big fear.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I hope you dont think I am bashing you. I'm not, I have been you. You will always be needy if your own satisfaction is based on others response to you. Your focus now should be what YOU NEED for yourself and from a woman aside from but including sex, to be happy WITH YOURSELF and then in a relationship. Dating will help you figure that out, your past mistakes will be priceless.
> 
> I have always been insecure too. Its a struggle, I know. One that you never fully conquer, havent yet anyway but it does get better, you can and will get stronger.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Curious I don't think anyone is bashing me, but I think many of you don't realize I'm very aware of my nice guy ways, and have spent the better part of the past couple years reading, and acting in ways to not reinforce that pattern. Mostly it has just shut me down, I have stopped relying on pleasing others to please myself and the result is I''m more isolated from people than ever, it's awfully lonely. And so I want to take what I've learned so far and try getting out there again, but any time I ask honest questions it always seems to come back to my supposedly being insecure for some reason. I have accepted that I am insecure, because I am the common denominator, but I have absolutely zero clue what not being insecure actually is (certainly not the loneliness when I stop myself from acting on my niceguy impulses).


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

I don't think you're insecure, but I think you do need to get in touch with the reason why you would put yourself first. If you don't have a reason, yep, you're going to be lonely when you're actively being un-codependent. If you're fired up about something you hold close to your core, you can be with other people and have perspective, where you won't give in to them because it means really giving up something you're attached to, also you won't feel alone when you're on your own, because you have an action plan long term for yourself. While I think we are put on earth to nurture each other, I also believe that this cannot be our sole purpose, it's just something that's taken for granted. Also, attachment. Fear of being attached to one person has more to do, for me, of having to give up other attachments, to avoid thorny issues/difficulties, dealing with people who are insecure, etc. Once i decided that I have guy friends (whom I've never been physical with, beyond dancing and hugging...) that I intend to keep regardless of relationship status, I felt comfortable being clear about this in the dating world. Also not giving up my parenting and family status with my kids, etc. Being selfish in the ways that matter, results in being connected with people in a more natural way. You don't have to worry about getting roped in to their lives, you don't have to worry about giving up the other attachments you do have.


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Lon said:


> Curious I don't think anyone is bashing me, but I think many of you don't realize I'm very aware of my nice guy ways, and have spent the better part of the past couple years reading, and acting in ways to not reinforce that pattern. Mostly it has just shut me down, I have stopped relying on pleasing others to please myself and the result is I''m more isolated from people than ever, it's awfully lonely. And so I want to take what I've learned so far and try getting out there again, but any time I ask honest questions it always seems to come back to my supposedly being insecure for some reason. I have accepted that I am insecure, because I am the common denominator, but I have absolutely zero clue what not being insecure actually is (certainly not the loneliness when I stop myself from acting on my niceguy impulses).


You call it your nice guy ways, I call it my insecure ways. When you are insecure you're always questioning yourself which you seem to be doing. It may be a part of the problem. I do it too,I'm getting better at it.You need experience to put into practice all that you have learned. Its trial and error. Get out there and stop being so hard on yourself. Stop worrying, it will take time...you will keep improving


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Fair enough but if you do not know what you want or expect for yourself how do you think it's possible for you to know what you want or expect from someone else?


Exactly. And IDK. not knowing has cost me a lot.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This is where I generally just suggest ...

Pick something.

Doesn't matter what it is. Pick something. Learn it. Decide if you want to be passionate about it.

Cooking. Dancing. Curling. Roller Derby. Cars. Writing. Golf. Painting. Wine. Magic. The stock market. Fishing. Bowling. Poetry. Running. Kung fu. RC racing. Bonsai Trees. Aquariums. Venomous snake milking ...

Pick something that you can master, quite possibly feel passionate about, enjoy in the company of others, or talk with someone about to educate them or display your vast knowledge on the subject.

Focus on things external to yourself. Get out of your head. Just doesn't sit well with me that everyone keeps mentioning how you are limiting yourself, if what you focus on is how you believe others perceive you. Leaves you chasing your own tail. Go chase a different tail. 

I didn't mean for that to be sexual but I'm on a bit of a roll.


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## curious2 (Jan 13, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Point being, that post marriage, there is a distinct difference between a woman that is choosing to have sex with a partner that she believes she is going to spend a lifetime with, versus a woman that wants to find a partner with whom she feels comfortable and safe enough with to be sexual.


True, but make no mistake, if she feels safe enough, comfortable enough to a have sex she is considering you and is trusting in your feelings for her as a possible long term partner. Some women put themseves out there for casual sex, for a few this may be true and nothing more. For most, it always means something.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> So my question was more for the guys about ever dating someone you have no intention to marry and spend the rest of your life with. I'm looking so far down the road all the time I just need help trying to actually live in the moment but then I get consumed with guilt, and so if I was to take the moral high road that means sentencing myself to a life of solitude and loneliness. The fact that I would even consider this, and the fact that I think I will lose my sexual desire for whomever I would end up with even has me wondering if I'm asexual.




First of all - you don't know that you will lose your sexual desire for whomever. Maybe you just haven't met the right woman.

As for the dating thing - I'd never had a first date where I had an intention to marry until I met my stbxw. We were at an overseas conference in Tokyo when we met. Sounds corny but I spotted her at breakfast and it was a "love at first sight" type of thing. We shared an umbrella walking from the hotel to the office and that was it. I knew I wanted to marry this woman. And I am NOT a player type - but I moved quickly. So we spent a lot of time together during the conference then went our separate ways (on opposite sides of the world). Then I carried on this long distance romance - pre-internet - we saw each other on vacations/business trips and 1.5 years later we married. The first year was rough (because we didn't really "know" each other) - then we adjusted to each other. 10 amazing years before we had kids (like a 10 year honeymoon period). It was great for another 7 or 8 years post-kids *then she cheated.* So I guess I didn't really know her before marrying and after getting married I ignored the warning signs thinking marriage was forever (eg - she has always had a big selfish streak.)

So maybe there's a lesson here - that you don't date with the intention of marrying. You date with the intention of having a good time and getting to know one another. And if you click, you have another date and another and you REALLY get to know each other. Not everyone you date and not everyone you sleep with is going to be a potential wife.

Don't think so far ahead when you're just going for a date unless you know she's the one. And even when you "know" - look what can happen 20 years down the road....


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Lon babes - venomous snake milking sounds cool and if you could display vast knowledge of that subject I'd be properly impressed.

As for chicks - don't know what to tell you as I'm the opposite. The thought of a man making a decision as to whether I could be a potential future wife so early on would make me run screaming for the hills. I can't just say 'forget about it, have some FUN' because that's not who you are. Do you think you're scared to dump someone if you're not feeling it? Like you would end up being with them long term because you wouldn't have the heart to end it?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Dolly, I don't think it has ever been me making a decision that early on I want to marry, but more about what to do when early on I don't want to. Is that the same as "not feeling it"? Where do you go from there?

This seems like it should just be all normal dating/relationship stuff. Yes I suppose there is a fear of dumping someone and not being able to provide a valid reason for why I would need to dump her. In one of my relationships I did have a valid reason to end it, and I jumped all over it, and for that I feel no guilt but it was the first time I ever felt a sense of urgency to end a relationship... in the next one (my last one, which was last summer) my reason to end it wasn't quite so readily valid (though it still was) but it made it a lot more painful and made me feel a tinge of guilt (which I suspect is part of what really shut down my desire to date since then)


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Lon, I'm not sure I've quite pinned down what you're asking here, are you saying that you don't think you can keep being attracted to a woman who is fat, even if she has a pretty face? And therefore you don't think you can have a LTR? Or is it that you think you'd lose interest in any woman sexually?


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## dubbizle (Jan 15, 2012)

Years and years ago when I was in high school when teachers could just put it out there and be real without people going carzy,one of me teachers said[you know you can only have so much sex then you have to learn how to really live with each other] The teacher is still married going on 60 years or more. 

I also think the same and in the past dated larger size women and had some great realationships and I dated medium size women all I still have great memories from and we had plaenty of sex through the years


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Lon, I'm not sure I've quite pinned down what you're asking here, are you saying that you don't think you can keep being attracted to a woman who is fat, even if she has a pretty face? And therefore you don't think you can have a LTR? Or is it that you think you'd lose interest in any woman sexually?


I think he's over thinking this, just like Joe said on page 1.

"._.Just Do I_t..."


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Lyris said:


> Lon, I'm not sure I've quite pinned down what you're asking here,


That's the rub.

He isn't asking anything.

He's avoiding. He's looking for validation to remain in his comfortable, yet miserable, little bubble.

No one can relate to him because he is unwilling to be vulernable. He's too busy feeling inadequate to reveal the fact that he might be inadequate. 

Until he goes and DOES something, instead of sitting around thinking about why he SHOULDN"T do something, he isn't going to get anywhere.

Lon, here's a challenge for you: The next time you leave the house, ask a woman for coffee tomorrow.

Now I'm going to sit back and wait for your list of reasons why you can't do that.

Also, you looked into this yet:



Saki said:


> Google "the law of attraction" and contemplate how that plays into this equation.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Lon said:


> I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term, not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person, or if I'm just a bad ender.
> 
> One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.


You're not shallow Lon or you wouldn't be pondering this question. Conflicted maybe. Physical attraction associated with body shape or appearance is kind of common. I'm sure if I let my teeth rot out or stopped showering then there would be attraction consequences. For that matter enough weight and my wife would lose physical attraction to me but normally we men can gain some weight. You know bigger, stronger, more able to protect (in theory).

I assume you want a hot body vixen with high character and strong morals who treats you really good and happens to be freak in the bedroom. Well we all want this but it's the priority placed on each need or want makes the difference.

If you think it's been a problem then yea you should narrow down your pool to slim women. Don't be surprised though if you lose attraction and are twice as confused though.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: weight quandry*



Saki said:


> That's the rub.
> 
> He isn't asking anything.
> 
> ...


Saki, your analysis is... Interesting, if not entirely true. If I'm looking for validation its because thats how I've ended up becoming wired, it's not that is a conscious decision. I "think" I want to be vulnerable but I have no clue how exactly to do that. And it's not as if I'm sitting around thinking of how to avoid doing something, the not doing something is an automated process, during which my mind is busy trying to invent a scenario where I can see myself breaking out of my patterns (but obviously you can see the faulty logic in that).

I dont want to make excuses, the excuse I've used up until now was fear of becoming attached to the wrong person, but I'm tired of feeling like that and you are exactly correct that until I ACTUALLY do something nothing will change. So I will take up your challenge, and will report back tomorrow.


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## ATC529R (Oct 31, 2012)

Lon said:


> I don't mean this to sound shallow, but whenever I tend to pursue a woman it ends up long term, not sure if its because I'm always forcing myself to look past the obvious characteristics in a person, or if I'm just a bad ender.
> 
> One thing I have come to doubt about myself is my ability to remain sexually attracted to the same person, especially when I look back at the women I've been with they are still just as gorgeous as when I met them, except prone to weight issues. I always thought they were very beautiful, but the sex appeal seemed to go away when we got too comfortable.
> 
> ...


VERY interesting stuff.... I'll just give you my take.

I always dated and was in long term deals with smoking hot chicks....but they always get old no matter how hot they are...

My wife is hot in her own right, has all the curves etc...but has some extra pounds. I remember after a couple years and marriage...thinking what your saying. her running around naked did not make her attractive to me. I would tell her to put some clothes on etc. (I'm a guy who likes undies and bras in the 1st place)

anywho, it has transformed now, into love I guess. as in making love and not a visual type. I love her curves and the sex and such, but I don't find myself going for the visual like I did 10 years ago...now it's more mental and emotional.

so. to answer your question, in my case at least, it has changed and worked out just fine.


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## Saki (Dec 7, 2011)

Lon said:


> Saki, your analysis is... Interesting, if not entirely true. If I'm looking for validation its because thats how I've ended up becoming wired, it's not that is a conscious decision. I "think" I want to be vulnerable but I have no clue how exactly to do that. And it's not as if I'm sitting around thinking of how to avoid doing something, the not doing something is an automated process, during which my mind is busy trying to invent a scenario where I can see myself breaking out of my patterns (but obviously you can see the faulty logic in that).


You've got XX years of evidence where you've told yourself things that aren't true.

Your body, mind, and soul are unable to see this for what it is, from the outside in.

The only way to break your cycle is through action, and the action must be different than what you've been doing. Drastically different, preferably.

You are so busy trying to give people what you think they need, you never have the opportunity to give them what you have to offer.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Lon,

Sure seems like you are trying to work out the solution to a complex problem BEFORE actually gaining the bits and pieces of knowledge that you'll need to solve it. Take a step back, friend. 

All of these empty spaces in your life that make you feel as if there is a void that can only be filled through a relationship with a woman - well, that one woman who will eventually enter your life for a while is feeling the same void ... for you, or some man who can respect her enough to make sure that he fills those empty spaces in her life. Thousands of women are harboring the same vulnerable need to connect in a meaningful way. Period. As a man, you have interests, needs, humor, intellectual views - all that are uniquely masculine, and uniquely missing from her life. Isn't that enough to start with?

I've read about the pain you went through during the breakup of your marriage. You survived pain and hurt that would make lesser men bitter and jaded, yet you still maintain an upbeat spirit when you engage others. I hope you can build on that foundation of positivity and wit to see yourself as a person who can be confident that he has much to offer.

I can't even describe some of the more subtle characteristics of my wife that made her the most unique and interesting person I knew - outside of the obvious attraction. I just knew that I wanted to spend more time with her. I just don't think you should overthink it beyond that - when the other opportunities for your time pale in comparison to being with her, then that is a real start.


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