# Lose Lose Situation :( Please help-any advice welcome



## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

Long story short...i have been with my now separated wife since the summer of 1995. We have 2 amazing girls 11 1/2 and 8 3/4 years old. During my 17 year marriage/relationship on 3 occasions, my wife had what seemed to be a brain transplant and completely changed. The first time (1999), before kids, she moved out, abandoned her real friends, turned on her parents, and me. about 8 months later, she was back to normal, we reconciled. 2005-2006....episode 2...we have 2 young kids, and it mirrored the first episode, except she didnt move out....it was worse than the first....episode 3 fall 2011-present....same as episode 1 in terms of behaviors, moved out in Feb. this time, my kids are old enough to notice and they are a mess. major abandonment issues, in therapy, as am i.
Each episode my wife turned on everyone close to her and befriended co workers...some male, some female....She would disappear, lie about where she was, spend thousands of dollars on make up and clothes per month...(we didnt have that kind of money) and just totally disconnect from me (as well as everyone else)
Please note, the woman in between the years of the episodes was the woman of my dreams....i love her so much... the manic periods all lasting 6 months to a year have been so bad, they have destroyed my trust and caused me VERY large amounts of emotional pain.
She has been to a pyschiatrist (MD) and two different ones believe it is bipolar...i didnt realize episodes could be that far apart but aparrently so. She refuses to accept it, seek help ( she gives me and her family lip service saying she will but never does, etc)
As it stands, we live apart, i am in the marital home with the girls, she has calmed a bit but still disconnected to the family..i went to attorney and we have a full Property Settlement Agreement (basically we are financially divorced) but NOT legally divorced.

Now, I love her very much when she is in a "normal" phase.
My kids hurt so badly about this, especially my 11 year old who is beginning puberty on top of it!
Ive been to therapy 26 times and have severe depression.
I am taking meds for anxiety ( basically extended realease version of xanax, lexapro, and wellbutrin was just added

I cant get over her. Basically, I am choosing to not let go. I do not want to. Until I decide I want to move forward, nothing will change, Logically, I know I have no control over her behaviors, but emotionally I do not.

I cant let go....I struggle because I know the episode will pass, but from what I understand as you get older, the gaps between them shrink, and they get worse. this has proven true so far...
I cant envision my life without her, yet i know my trust is gone, mainly my sense she will never embrace this illness.
I continue (for the kids sake) to allow her to come and go in the marital home and see them...it helps them but causes a disappointment later....UGH...any advice? as I type, i realize its so broken, yet i cant stop or let go...
Help.
PS...
I failed to mention that I brought her to a psychiatrist on many different occasions and we never made it past the second session she started to fail to show up and even her parents are unable to get her to move on it. In working with my kids therapist, they realize that mommy has "mood issues". When they get older, I am assuming that they will understand that their mother comes in and out of their lives? That saddens me tremendously as well as them. When she's not in the manic phase of the bipolar, She is so attentive even overprotective and close with the two girls it's very confusing for them. The lipservice she gives us in terms of getting help is beginning to fall on deaf ears with her real best friends her parents me and even my 11 1/2 yr old. The only people she talks to our the surface friends who are coworkers. She's had many of those coming go throughout her life and when they come she goes Allin with them because they know nothing to the point where she puts them ahead of her family just a symptom of being bipolar but so many times these friends have been prioritized over me whether male or female that it is cause so much pain for me emotionally. Ironically, when she's not bipolar she always had a little bit of a trust issue with me and I'm a completely honest man! It's very hypocritical but has to be due to the illness so sad


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

can anyone help me?


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I can't. Sorry.... but there HAVE to be online support groups for spouses of bipolar people.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Since she might be bipolar have you looked at discussion boards?

I found this from a google search, Bipolar Support. Org


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

brokenman30 said:


> can anyone help me?


What kind of help are you wanting? You say you don't want to let go of her because you love her and that you are "choosing" not to. Your word... 

Nobody can choose for you. 

Keep hanging on and you'll get more of the same thing. She's already shown you that she can't/won't embrace the diagnosis and stick to treatment. So you can mitigate the effects to the best of your ability, you can leave and move on with your life, or you can straddle a fence, eventually take her back, and find this happening again somewhere down the line.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Broken,

I agree with KathyBatesel. Until you decide what it is you really want for your girls and yourself, the pattern will repeat,

You need to take a step back and realize the impact this is having on your girls. Again, I am no where qualified to suggest what type of long term impact this could have but you should talk to a professional who could shed light on the possible long term damages (if any) to the kids.

Sorry but I would also suggest that if you've been intimate with your wife after any of these bouts, you should be tested for STDs. She is not responsible for her behavior when she's gone and you need to protect yourself


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your kids got screwed in life by having a defective person give birth to them. That really sucks. But, it's all the more reason that they need a fully functioning father to take care of them. You as a father owe it to your children to be the best man and parent you are capable of being. You need to lead your children into accepting that their mother is mentally ill and that in life to compensate for this they need to turn to family members who are not. And have compassion for their sick mother. The way you do this is to embrace all of this yourself. YOu can't wallow in hurt, betrayal and pain, you must role model for your children. That's why God gives 2 parents to a child, in case one parent is incapable of raising the child, the other must step up. Quite honestly, while it is understandable, you are being selfish wallowing in depression. You have to realize that life does not always go according to plan, people who give birth do not always qualify for the title of Mother, and lead your children to understand these things.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

I read some of your other threads. In them you repeatedly say that she may bi-polar but state that is is not a normal bi-polar pattern. You say "may be" bi-polar because she has refused to seek treatment and thus you are diagnosing this yourself. During these periods she gets to step out of her marraige and away from all responsibility. She does not come home at night and is with other men. You also state that your wife is always happy that when it is over that you stuck around for her.

Your wife has refused treatment and does not seek help because she knows that she is not bi-polar and that the real issue is that she is a selfish serial cheater. She likes being married to you because you let her get away with this and can be counted on to take her back. You are in an open marraige. Your wife is a cake eater and you are an enabler. When she comes back, she rug sweeps and you let her. Trying to make it like it is an illness makes you feel better for letting her do this to you, but you are only fooling yourself. Your family is trying to tell you what to do. Listen to them.

Now that your children are older, they are starting to figure things out. You are hurting them by staying in this marraige. You are also hurting their long term relationship with you as they will forever lose all respect for you.


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## GPR (Jan 3, 2009)

You are in a bad situation and it really does suck for you. Some of my opinions are based on my wife having a mother somewhat similar to this and me seeing and dealing with those issues even to this day (she's 28 now)...

First. Put aside all hopes of your wife getting better. She is no longer your problem. You've tried to help her. Didn't work. Move on. She's going to have to figure it out for herself. Your problem is the kids. I would divorce her and do everything in my power to make sure you have complete and total legal rights. If she is truly a bad bi-polar and is not getting help, medication, etc. She is capable of doing some bad things. You need to make sure your kids are protected and you have the legal rights to protect them. 

With that, I will be completely blunt. She's been sleeping with other men, if not MANY other men. If you read around some of the things on bi-polar, when they are in a manic state, they are extremely likely to be cheating and sleeping around. Man or woman. So please start to come to grips with this now and don't try to rationalize that it didn't happen. Because it has and you might as well start to deal with this part of it too...

No secondly. I know it sucks for you and it's not fair to you. I'm willing to guess that none of what has happened to you is your fault (which is something else you need to realize), but when it comes down to it.... it's "Man-Up" time! I know you are depressed. I know it hurts. Anyone would be. You need to learn to deal with that. Because the only thing worse than the situation your wife has put your kids in, is also having a depressed and sad father. I'm not saying to "get-over it". I know it doesn't work that way, but you need to be strong for your kids and in front of your kids. A big part of this again is it's time to stop trying to fix her. FIX YOU!!! Your kids desperately need one good solid parent right now. They need to have some sort of stability in their life. That needs to be you because it's obvious Mom isn't going to do it.

It sounds like you are being somewhat honest with your kids about Mom's issues (along with the therapist), they are still young, but not too young to be somewhat forward with them about it. Don't trash their mother, but don't make excuses for her either. You need to be honest with them so they can be honest with you about what they are feeling.

My wife's mother walked out when she was 3 and her little sister was 5 months old. A mother, just up and leaving her 5 month old baby out of the blue. She wasn't a drug addict or anything like that. She just left. She would come back, she would be in their life for a few months, then disappear again. Out of nowhere. Until after a few years, she stopped coming around all together. This has left permanent effects on her. Her father wasn't the best at helping them when they were young, because he too was still very young. Luckily his parents (my wife's grandparents) were very loving. Her father get better as he got older. But he will admit to this day there were many things he did wrong. Much of which is the stuff I'm talking about now. 

Basically, you need to give your kids a lot of love, lots of attention, but don't overcompensate. You need to be stable. You need structure for them. Between my wife and her sister, they both had different issues. My wife grew up thinking that she never deserved to be loved. She was older and had a better memory of her mother, and more importantly, of her mother leaving. My wife's sister was spoiled after the fact (because she was literally a baby when this happened) and everyone always felt bad and gave in to her. She also has the love issues, but with that, is now very entitled, and thinks people should always be doing things for her. And if they don't, they don't love her. 

Anyway, this has gotten long. But in summary, like I said. No one here would disagree with the fact you are getting the shaft in life here. But my best advice, don't waste any more time on her. That time is better spent on yourself and your children. And don't neglect yourself, because a healthy Dad will be the best thing in the world when helping your kids.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

I agree that you are using her "illness" to rationalize her horrible behavior. It's probably the only way you know how to cope with the situation. It simply means that you're a good person and you hope for the best. Not a bad thing overall. First you need to realize that you're in big time denial about the situation. While she may actually have deep rooted psychological issues it doesn't change the impact of her actions on your children. I know this first hand because I had a mother like just like her. The feelings of abandonment and anger will last a lifetime for your children. Later in life your children will wonder why you stuck around and put up with the abuse and neglect. Ultimately, they will lose respect for you because you didn't handle the situation well. 

The second thing that you need to realize is that *YOU CAN'T FIX HER*. Then you need to realize that your life is passing you by while your sitting around being depressed and hoping that she comes back "normal". If you need some help to get to this point all you need to think about is all the guys she's banging while she's out running around during one of her "episodes". You didn't mention it because you don't want to acknowledge what's really occuring while she's gone. If you don't think this is true then the you may have some of your own issues preventing you from understanding the situation properly. 

She doesn't like MC or IC because she knows the truth about herself and doesn't want to be exposed. She is not the person you think she is. She's playing you, her family and probably everyone else she comes in contact with. She knows she can manipulate most people to get her way. She's a selfish person who doesn't deserve your love. She lost that right when she abandoned your family for the third time. There is only one thing you can do to move forward in your life. Initiate divorce immediately. Start working on yourself so you can be strong for your damaged children. Your children only have one hope and it's you. You need to appear to be in control so your children will feel safe. Right now they are lost and wondering who will take care of them. They need a safe harbor. All of this will not be easy but its time to man up and do the things that will lead to some hapiness for yourself and your children. Don't you and your family deserve some happiness?

Peace


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am straddling a fence. Btw, I live in the marital home and she is in an apartment. Would you continue to let her act as though she can come and go for the kids sake? I took away her key, etc. per our agreement but because of the schedules of our kids, sports, etc. it seems like she has her cake and eating it too!
I never went to her place after the day she moved in. Do I stay on the fence until the kids get older for their sake? Who would want to date a guy like me- my scenario stinks?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

TRy said:


> I read some of your other threads. In them you repeatedly say that she may bi-polar but state that is is not a normal bi-polar pattern. You say "may be" bi-polar because she has refused to seek treatment and thus you are diagnosing this yourself. During these periods she gets to step out of her marraige and away from all responsibility. She does not come home at night and is with other men. You also state that your wife is always happy that when it is over that you stuck around for her.
> 
> Your wife has refused treatment and does not seek help because she knows that she is not bi-polar and that the real issue is that she is a selfish serial cheater. She likes being married to you because you let her get away with this and can be counted on to take her back. You are in an open marraige. Your wife is a cake eater and you are an enabler. When she comes back, she rug sweeps and you let her. Trying to make it like it is an illness makes you feel better for letting her do this to you, but you are only fooling yourself. Your family is trying to tell you what to do. Listen to them.
> 
> Now that your children are older, they are starting to figure things out. You are hurting them by staying in this marraige. You are also hurting their long term relationship with you as they will forever lose all respect for you.



TRy. She was diagnosed as bipolar and refuses to believe it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GPR (Jan 3, 2009)

brokenman30 said:


> I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am straddling a fence. Btw, I live in the marital home and she is in an apartment. Would you continue to let her act as though she can come and go for the kids sake? I took away her key, etc. per our agreement but because of the schedules of our kids, sports, etc. it seems like she has her cake and eating it too!
> I never went to her place after the day she moved in. Do I stay on the fence until the kids get older for their sake? Who would want to date a guy like me- my scenario stinks?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


NO

You need to act like you are divorced. This is no longer her place. She has her own place. If she comes over, it's because she was invited or it was arranged. Not because she feels like it. I'm not saying don't let her see the kids. But she should not be able to come over and walk in like she lives there. She doesn't.

Staying on the fence is the worst thing you can do. She is having her cake and eating it too. You need to break from this situation and set the boundaries. She doesn't want to be a part of the marriage, then give her that wish. You are doing yourself no favors by staying on the fence and waiting for her to get better.

And with this arrangement, why the hell would she even try to get better. She can come an go as she pleases, when she shows up, you act like you are married and she gets to play mom for a while, then gets to leave and go to her own private apartment and live the single life. This is perfect for her, why would she do anything to change it???

And you need to get yourself some confidence man and stop with the "Who else would want me" stuff. 

First of all, you shouldn't be worrying about the next one until you take care of this situation.

Second, I don't even know you, but I can tell from this page alone you are underestimating yourself. 

You need to get off the fence and take some action.


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

GPR said:


> You are in a bad situation and it really does suck for you. Some of my opinions are based on my wife having a mother somewhat similar to this and me seeing and dealing with those issues even to this day (she's 28 now)...
> 
> First. Put aside all hopes of your wife getting better. She is no longer your problem. You've tried to help her. Didn't work. Move on. She's going to have to figure it out for herself. Your problem is the kids. I would divorce her and do everything in my power to make sure you have complete and total legal rights. If she is truly a bad bi-polar and is not getting help, medication, etc. She is capable of doing some bad things. You need to make sure your kids are protected and you have the legal rights to protect them.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your long reply. You are right. I'm not 100% sure she was sleeping around but does that really matter at this point anyway? What matters is that I am where I am. Based on what you said, how do I move on? My kids wouldn't get it- I think they carry hope , etc. I will Not divorce her. I already have the legal portion fully taken care of and I have no need to file, unless I get married again. Plus, I am self employed and get her benefits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

GPR said:


> NO
> 
> You need to act like you are divorced. This is no longer her place. She has her own place. If she comes over, it's because she was invited or it was arranged. Not because she feels like it. I'm not saying don't let her see the kids. But she should not be able to come over and walk in like she lives there. She doesn't.
> 
> ...


I think you are 100% correct. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

GPR said:


> NO
> 
> You need to act like you are divorced. This is no longer her place. She has her own place. If she comes over, it's because she was invited or it was arranged. Not because she feels like it. I'm not saying don't let her see the kids. But she should not be able to come over and walk in like she lives there. She doesn't.
> 
> ...


You are also 100% right. You sound like my therapist! Why is it hard to let go? Rationally, it's a no brainer, emotionally, it's brutal! How is the main question?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Bipolar disorder is extremely rare. Studies show that only 2% of the populations will have some form of bipolar disorder above the sub-threshold level within their lifetime. Of that 2% only 1% will have the more serious version of bipolar disorder during their lifetime. Yet if you read threads about infidelity by betrayed spouses, they so commonly make reference to the cheater being bipolar you would almost think that being bipolar is the norm for cheaters. This does not match up with reality.

Here are the numbers. Studies show that approximately 22% of males and 19% of females will cheat on their marraige some time during their lifetime. Even if you make the false assumption that of the 2% of the population that will have the disorder during their lifetime (would only be 1% if only the more serious level version was counted), 100% will cheat on their marraige, then at most only 10% of all cheaters would be bipolar at the time that they cheated. This 10% is way to high a percentage because although bipolar people are more likely to cheat, we know that not all of them do.

Thus the high propensity for the betrayed to say that their cheating spouse is bipolar, is not based on reality, but on the need to deny the real reality of their marraige. That they are married to a cheater and they are looking for excuses to look the other way.


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## GPR (Jan 3, 2009)

brokenman30 said:


> Thank you for your long reply. You are right. I'm not 100% sure she was sleeping around but does that really matter at this point anyway? What matters is that I am where I am. Based on what you said, how do I move on? My kids wouldn't get it- I think they carry hope , etc. I will Not divorce her. I already have the legal portion fully taken care of and I have no need to file, unless I get married again. Plus, I am self employed and get her benefits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What about the legal rights of the Children? Have those been addressed? Like I said, if she is truly bi-polar and has acted the way she has, what happens if in a manic episode, she takes the kids and decides to move across the country in the middle of the night? You said financially divorced. She is their mother, unless there is something in place, she has every right to do this, and you would have a hell of a time getting them back. 

As far as steps:
1- Make sure you have every legal right of your kids so that she can't do anything close to the above.

2- Make it clear to her that you are separated/divorced/ etc. And that from now on, things will be treated as such. She has her place, you have hers. If she wants to come to your house to see the kids, she needs permission or an invite. Be clear that you are not forbidding her from seeing the kids, but that she can't just drop in whenever the hell she feels like it. I would even try to establish a schedule. In writing. 

3- Keep a journal. Document EVERYTHING. This comes with the schedule. Write down every time you talk to her. Every time she sees the kids. Every time she misses a scheduled visit. 

4- You need to realize, that no matter how much you try, you kids WILL be effected by this. This will hurt them. You need to accept it. Again, it's not fair, it's not right, not parent wants this.... but it's the truth. With that, THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT. So don't let that creep in that head of yours either. Your job isn't to shield them entirely. It's not possible. And will do more damage than good. It's to make it as easy as possible. To comfort them, to re-assure them, and to minimize the hurt. To be their Rock. Explain it to them as best as they can understand. There will be days, especially as they get older, that they will not like you. They may even try to blame you at times. But you need to stand through it, and do what's best for them in the long run, not what makes it easier at the time.

Think of it like this. 10 years from now. Do you want your kids to say:

"My mother was crazy and it hurts me to this day.... But Dad, Dad was the best. He was a Rock. With everything that happened with my mom, I don't know what I would've done without him...."

or do you want them to say:

"My mother was crazy and it hurts me to this day.... and Dad, he was so messed up over the situation, he wasn't much of a help. So I basically had 2 messed up parents..."


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

brokenman30 said:


> Thank you for your long reply. You are right. I'm not 100% sure she was sleeping around but does that really matter at this point anyway? What matters is that I am where I am. Based on what you said, how do I move on? My kids wouldn't get it- I think they carry hope , etc. I will Not divorce her. I already have the legal portion fully taken care of and I have no need to file, unless I get married again. Plus, I am self employed and get her benefits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course your kids wouldn't get it. They are not aware of what this crappy situation is doing to them. Its your job to know what's best for them. Hard choices are the domain of parents. They will be better off with a healthy father who can show them what a good relationship looks like. Right now you are failing at that.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

brokenman30 said:


> I think you hit the nail right on the head. I am straddling a fence. Btw, I live in the marital home and she is in an apartment. Would you continue to let her act as though she can come and go for the kids sake? I took away her key, etc. per our agreement but because of the schedules of our kids, sports, etc. it seems like she has her cake and eating it too!
> I never went to her place after the day she moved in. Do I stay on the fence until the kids get older for their sake? Who would want to date a guy like me- my scenario stinks?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


1. I certainly wouldn't date you while you are pining away for a memory of her! But if you truly moved on, why *wouldnl't* someone date you? You're not a bad guy because she has a mental illness.

2. I don't agree that she "has her cake and is eating it, too" or that her behavior is not typical for bipolar. It's commonly believed that bipolar people must have periods of mania and periods of depression, which is not true. They can go from normal to depressed, or normal to manic, and back to normal. This is a recognized bipolar pattern. By refusing treatment, she is letting you know that she's willing to risk doing this to her children and to you.

3. Straddling the fence is not going to help your children learn how to set and uphold good boundaries in their own lives. You and your wife are their models for how to act in their own lives. Your choices teach them something every moment of every day, and they don't always learn what you want them to. You can say, "Mom comes here because she loves you," and they may be learning how to not be assertive instead.

You also ask why it's so hard to let go. Looking at your own pattern of anxiety and depression, I'd say that you believe you're inadequate and having a marriage validates that you're more adequate. After all, your first thought at the idea of leaving is "Who would date me?" You need to learn how to take your past experiences and turn them into something positive. Instead of thinking "I failed at....(whatever the experience was)" you need to learn how to find the positive aspect. 

Thomas Edison was once criticized for having several hundred "failures" as he was inventing the light bulb. He responded that he had not failed, but had actually discovered several hundred ways not to make a light bulb. It's all in how you look at things and decide what they mean to you. If Edison accepted that criticism and thought it was hopeless, we might not have light bulbs as we know them today (or music, for that matter.)


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> 1. I certainly wouldn't date you while you are pining away for a memory of her! But if you truly moved on, why *wouldnl't* someone date you? You're not a bad guy because she has a mental illness.
> 
> 2. I don't agree that she "has her cake and is eating it, too" or that her behavior is not typical for bipolar. It's commonly believed that bipolar people must have periods of mania and periods of depression, which is not true. They can go from normal to depressed, or normal to manic, and back to normal. This is a recognized bipolar pattern. By refusing treatment, she is letting you know that she's willing to risk doing this to her children and to you.
> 
> ...


Hi Kathy,
I think my words of "who would want me?" were meant as my position stands in limbo. Not my own personal insecurities. I think I am / was an amazing husband who is a very involved father, and quite opposite of most woman's stereotypical complaints they have towards their men. I clean, do my own laundry, buy my own clothes, vacuum, plus I have an MBA and a nice career with a balance of time dedicated to my family. I am a family man. I appreciate your kind advice,and assistance in helping me look at my life objectively. I guess my desire for the old way of life is not here. It is not easy to throw away 17 years with someone bc of 3 episodes lasting 6mo - 1 yr and spending several years in between on a high note!
My psychiatrist (MD)to help me with my "situation" depression anxiety also met my wife and said as she gets older, the frequency and depressive episodes become more frequent. That's stinks. 
The doctor is from UPENN (an ivy league medical hospital) and has extensive background in bipolar. Some on here think it is an excuse but I am certain of what she has. I wouldnt abandon a spouse with cancer, and feel a little guilty with this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Man,

Sorry you are here. Quite frankly, you are divorced without the paper already. Unfortunately, you aren't allowing yourself the freedom to move on. There is nothing to say that your wife couldn't return to you or even keep the current living situation through and after a divorce. But at least you would be able to pursue your life. You likely would get primary custody given the circumstance. 

Also, trust me, there are MANY wonderful women out there looking a great guy like you. I know from first hand experience! You will have to beat them off with a stick.

To paraphrase the ancient Chinese saying, "The journey of 1000 miles begins with just one little step." Well you are already 900 miles down the road!. File. Move on. It might even wake her up enough to seek help.

Good luck


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

brokenman30 said:


> can anyone help me?


This is going to echo the advice I gave the guy married to a CSA survivor earlier this week.

At the end of the day, you must understand that your wife is an adult and has the right to make her own choices. Reality: she knows she has a mental illness that disrupts the lives of her loved ones (you, kids, her extended family) and has willfully chosen the easy way out rather than doing the hard work to get better. It's not your fault she is this way and not your problem to fix; you have better things to do, like getting yourself and your daughters healthy.

If I were in your shoes, I would finalize the divorce and pursue primary physical and sole legal custody of my daughters to the best of my ability. You've basically stated that her BPD can come at any time, she refuses to get help, and she comes off the rails + shuts everyone out when the episodes come, right? Leaving the children alone with her seems unhealthy at best and downright dangerous at worst.

Also, you need to let go of this marriage. When things are good you are happy. But consider the toll the yo-yo dynamic takes on you and the children. Mom gets back to normal and hangs around, everybody gets cautiously optimistic then happy, then she falls apart and everyone around is crushed. Rinse and repeat.

Maybe it would be healthier if you simply moved on? As for your daughters, I think it may be premature to cut off all contact. But an arrangement that allows them to visit mom for a set amount of time every so often, but with you being in charge, setting the tone and providing the stability, and having the ability to stop the visits if mom goes off again would be healthies for all involved?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

brokenman30 said:


> The doctor is from UPENN (an ivy league medical hospital) and has extensive background in bipolar. Some on here think it is an excuse but I am certain of what she has. I wouldnt abandon a spouse with cancer, and feel a little guilty with this.


Your sympathy is misplaced. Your wife is consciously choosing to avoid treatment. She could very easily get the required treatment and knows she has a problem, but would rather just carry on worry about herself first.


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

DTO, in terms of my sympathy being misplaced, you are right...however, I disagree that she is consciously making a choice to get better...i believe that when you are bipolar and in a manic episode, you feel like you are high on life....most do not get treatment, until they "wake up" and realize what has happened-fall into depression, etc.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

brokenman30 said:


> DTO, in terms of my sympathy being misplaced, you are right...however, I disagree that she is consciously making a choice to get better...i believe that when you are bipolar and in a manic episode, you feel like you are high on life....most do not get treatment, until they "wake up" and realize what has happened-fall into depression, etc.


 Has she been clinically diagnosed as being bipolar?


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

brokenman30 said:


> DTO, in terms of my sympathy being misplaced, you are right...however, I disagree that she is consciously making a choice to get better...i believe that when you are bipolar and in a manic episode, you feel like you are high on life....most do not get treatment, until they "wake up" and realize what has happened-fall into depression, etc.


It would be really awesome if mania was like some kind of mental Calgon....takes it all away until the water goes down the drain and you're magically not manic anymore.

The reality is that unless a true psychotic break happens....like you're Jesus riding the elephants talking to the atoms psychotic break.....we're typically aware that we're choosing mania over what the right thing to do is. Mania is just considerably more fun than most other alternatives. It's even more fun when there's someone in the wings to clean up and take care of all the details while we explore the world.


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

TRy said:


> Has she been clinically diagnosed as being bipolar?


YES
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> It would be really awesome if mania was like some kind of mental Calgon....takes it all away until the water goes down the drain and you're magically not manic anymore.
> 
> The reality is that unless a true psychotic break happens....like you're Jesus riding the elephants talking to the atoms psychotic break.....we're typically aware that we're choosing mania over what the right thing to do is. Mania is just considerably more fun than most other alternatives. It's even more fun when there's someone in the wings to clean up and take care of all the details while we explore the world.



Continue...I loved this. Now, as it applies to my scenario. What do I do? Standing firm punishes my kids, no?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

brokenman30 said:


> Continue...I loved this. Now, as it applies to my scenario. What do I do? Standing firm punishes my kids, no?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, standing firm and creating rules and boundaries _protects_ your kids. It creates the structure that your separation is more or less permanent; it creates the structure of predictable time with each parent; and it creates safety in that you can determine when it is appropriate for their mother to see them. That is, during future swings, you can determine and control how much time unsupervised she spends with them in order to mitigate stress on the kids and be sure that they're safe, even if their mother has been drinking or whatever.

Think of it this way: if this weren't their mom...if it were say, that kooky uncle or crazy cousin that lurks in most families-- would you have a moment's hesitation in exercising control and structure in how your children spent time with this person? I'm assuming that we're just talking about that wacky relative, not a creepy relative, of course. The kind that is super fun to kids but gives their parents heart attacks  

Boundaries and structure with regard to access are what make your kids feel safe even when all the craziness is going on around them. Boundaries and structure are also the consequence of their mother's choice not to treat her disease. Not a punishment, her choices to self-medicate and to not seek treatment simply create different concerns than an ordinary custody situation. 

Your first responsibility is for the care and safety of your girls. That includes their physical and emotional safety. By enforcing appropriate rules and boundaries with their mother, you're providing that. This is no more a punishment than refusing to give them ice cream for breakfast is....

And if I haven't mentioned it--I'm really impressed and proud of the progress you've made and the way you've stepped up for yourself and your girls. I know it isn't easy!


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

COGypsy
Thank you so much for you kind words. It is so emotionally draining. One of the issues currently is that I let her control the tempo and didnt set any boundaries. Its strange but the kids seem much better when she comes around. I am afraid if I draw up a boundary after a few months without one, they will start hurting even more (again). I think I blew it


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

brokenman30 said:


> COGypsy
> Thank you so much for you kind words. It is so emotionally draining. One of the issues currently is that I let her control the tempo and didnt set any boundaries. Its strange but the kids seem much better when she comes around. I am afraid if I draw up a boundary after a few months without one, they will start hurting even more (again). I think I blew it


Now obviously I don't know your kids and I haven't seen the dynamic in your house--but I've worked with lots of kids from all kinds of family situations, so this is my take on things.

I'm sure that the kids ARE better when she's in and out whenever she feels like it. It creates a sense of familiarity and keeps the hope that things will go back to the way they were. However, familiar is not always healthy. And of course, if things change and you start enforcing boundaries, there will be a transition period. Kind of like the end of summer when you were a kid. Remember what a pain it was for you and your parents both to go back to the "school schedule" with bedtimes and routines after all that had been relaxed for summer? You probably hated going to bed earlier and definitely hated getting up earlier and your parents hated you hating it....but you got through it and in the end having that consistency was much better for you once school started.

Honestly, it sounds to me like everyone is in charge in your house except you. The kids' mother comes and goes as she pleases. You allow it so that she doesn't get mad and the kids don't feel bad. Wishing things were different and would just go back to what you knew before doesn't get you off the hook when it comes to being the strong dad that looks out for the best interests (NOT the most popular ones!) of the ones who are really powerless in this whole thing.

Are your kids in therapy? 

Oops, I see from the first post now that they are. Maybe this whole issue of boundaries, etc. could be discussed with their therapist to get their thoughts on it and how to deal with the transition?


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Denial of a bipolar diagnosis is pretty much standard in the beginning. My wife is doing the same thing, BUT she's on treatment and is pretty much 100% stable at this point. I told her she either stays on treatment or she leaves. I will not put our kids through that over and over, and frankly I'm not strong enough to go through it myself over and over. I hate issuing ultimatums, but there ya are...


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Drover said:


> Denial of a bipolar diagnosis is pretty much standard in the beginning. My wife is doing the same thing, BUT she's on treatment and is pretty much 100% stable at this point. I told her she either stays on treatment or she leaves. I will not put our kids through that over and over, and frankly I'm not strong enough to go through it myself over and over. I hate issuing ultimatums, but there ya are...


:iagree:

Totally! I remember before I sought treatment I took every herb, meditated, worked out, tracked food and sleep.....every possible alternative to a diagnosis and permanent medication!

Turns out what works is a delicous morning ****tail of lamictal, vyvanse and synthroid, with an occasional bump of klonopin 

And sadly, ultimatums are often what's needed when you're dealing with a disease that is SO freakin' seductive. it leaves a path of hurt and often destruction behind, but a nice hypomania/mania feels SO good it's sometimes hard to remember the aftermath. 

I haven't seen this anywhere in the clinical research (and I read a LOT of clinical research!), but my own little theory is that beyond the neurochemical and biological aspects of bipolar, we also have to deal with a component of addiction. The highs are frankly addictive and they're the part of the disease that we are most resistant to losing. We feel we won't be fun, won't be productive, etc. when the reality is, we're usually just obnoxious and scattered. Kind of like the drunk that thinks they're hilarious. And that high is something that you have to give up chasing in order to successfully stabilize with bipolar disorder. And just like other addicts, what it usually takes to do that is having something else we want more, or else hitting rock bottom. Or a little bit of both, actually--at least for me. 

So my point really is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with issuing ultimatums in cases like this. You'd have no qualms about saying they'd be out the door if your alcoholic or coke-sniffing wife ever took another drink or snort or whatever, right? Same thing.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm not sure about this bi-polar stuff but I do know about being a dad. And your love for your kids should come before that of your wife. Keep them safe and protected always, even if it has to be from her the emotional pain your wife causes from coming in and out of their lives.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I'm not sure about this bi-polar stuff but I do know about being a dad. And your love for your kids should come before that of your wife. Keep them safe and protected always, even if it has to be from her the emotional pain your wife causes from coming in and out of their lives.


One thing I do have going for me is that my wife was abandoned by her mother when she was 2 and after that my wife was shuffled from relative to relative, living out of a suitcase for years. She knows what that's like, and she feels very strongly that she not do it to her kids so I'm playing on that to keep her on treatment too.


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## brokenman30 (Oct 28, 2011)

Drover,
I am interested in learningmore about your situation. What happened or what were the pieces of collateral damage that may have impacted your relationship.

COGypsy
your advice is amazing. I wish I could pick your brain more!


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

brokenman30 said:


> COGypsy
> your advice is amazing. I wish I could pick your brain more!


PM me anytime--


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