# Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation



## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.

First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.

Everyone agrees that the WS is 100% responsible for their choice to cheat. What I'm wondering is if the problem in evaluating the marriage pre-affair is because it isn't often verbalized in the following manner:

(Please note, the following use of "I" here is generic - this is not my situation, I'm simply trying to phrase what I see and think from other posters.)

"I cheated and am responsible for that choice. There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair. *I am working hard to identify and understand what personal weaknesses allowed me to react to those circumstances by having an affair, rather than coping with it in a more healthy and straightforward manner.*"

It seems to me as I work on myself and read more about other couples in reconciliation that most all marriages have imperfections and improvements that can be made. It also seems that if someone truly desires to reconcile, addressing those areas must be part of building a new relationship together. But am I logical in thinking that viewing it as above, with a recognition that it was poor coping skills/habits/personal flaws *within the WS's handling* of those marital issues that allowed an affair, could enable both a WS to work on the WS's weaknesses as well as the BS and WS to work together on marital improvements without the BS feeling like they are trying to create conditions where the WS won't cheat again?

Clearly this doesn't apply to serial cheaters. Also, often cheaters are described as selfish and narcissistic. I'm not disagreeing, but how can a BS ever rebuild trust if they are lumping their WS under those generic flaws? Isn't it better to understand why/how a WS would choose to be selfish? (I'm not talking about the marital circumstances, but the personal perceptions/rationalizations that occur.) It seems like only then could a WS say to their BS that they understand the factors that enabled them to cheat and are actively protecting themselves from anything that could lead to a reoccurrence. So essentially a WS could say, "I know I am prone to selfish behavior under x conditions. It is my responsibility to be self-aware enough to share how I'm feeling with my partner and monitor my thoughts and actions so that I will not default to those selfish patterns of behavior." To me, that seems like one of the essential aspects when working to rebuild trust.

Thanks for reading along as I think out loud, or on-screen, as it were.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Weird - on my phone this shows up as a locked thread?


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


One of the best posts I have read here.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Weird - on my phone this shows up as a locked thread?


Is it open on your phone, now?:scratchhead:


A lot of what you said makes sense.

Maybe more openness and better communication between spouses might help?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Not on my end.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This thread is open for me. I'm on a PC though, not a cell phone.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias,

Since you have been around here on TAM for a long time, I'm wondering if you have read the books:

"Surviving an Affair" and "His Needs, Her Needs" by Dr. Harley?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Weird - on my phone this shows up as a locked thread?


If it were truly a blocked thread, you could not have posted the above.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> If it were truly a blocked thread, you could not have posted the above.


True - it must just be a glitch on my end.

And yes, I have read those books. Matt and I have been using Steve Harley as a marriage coach for telephone sessions for a little over a year now. It has been really helpful with my thoughts and the processes that I am working through during this.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mrs M, I am of the opinion that since we are all human we all can be noble and strong. That humanity can manifest itself in remarkable and wonderful ways. Like the person that rushes into a burning building to save another or the person that gives to charity even though they themselves have almost nothing. But that same humanity makes us weak. We can all be selfish, we can all be cruel and given the right circumstances we can all betray the ones we love. Some people look upon a cheater and think they are better than they are. They believe that they would never cheat. And even though many would not admit it they believe that they are inherently superior. I feel very bad for those people because imo they are ones most susceptible to infidelity. They are the ones standing on the precipice while refusing to believe that a strong breeze could push them over the edge. I know because that used to be me. But now I know better. When I look at a cheater I say to myself "there but by the grace of God go I." I know I'm capable of betrayal. I know I'm weak. And that knowledge helps me to keep strong. That knowledge reinforces my boundaries. That knowledge keeps me ever watchful for danger. I have never been a WS. I have experienced betrayal. I am human. I am selfish. I am narcissistic. But I am also a fighter and will not give in to those weaknesses. And if we could tap in to the strength that both WS and BS demonstrate during R we could heal the world.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

I liked your reflection but the problem I think that lies in the fact that the BS have no way to know if the WS is sincerely thinking something like this:



Mrs_Mathias said:


> So essentially a WS could say, "I know I am prone to selfish behavior under x conditions. It is my responsibility to be self-aware enough to share how I'm feeling with my partner and monitor my thoughts and actions so that I will not default to those selfish patterns of behavior." To me, that seems like one of the essential aspects when working to rebuild trust.


The Ws can easily pretend to be thinking that and even concede to all the requests of the BS, playing a role but in fact their intentions maybe are dishonest.

see, let me give you one of the more horrible examples here on TAM

"dingerdad" and "Allybabe_18"

"Allybabe_18" opened 4 threads, she was an active tammer for around 4 months if I remember correctly, all her threads were about learning from FWW and BS how to heal the marriage how to improve their relationship, how to show the her BS how much she loved him, let me quote some of her comments:



Allybabe_18 said:


> I am new to this site but my husband suggested I come check it out as I am struggling with allot of guilt, anxiety & panic attacks. He has found allot of help here.*
> 
> I am honestly going to do anything & everything I can to show my husband I love him, what I did was wrong and that *we can grow through this.*
> I know our marriage will ever be the same but I am committed to make it something better than it ever could have been, us knowing where it broke down in the 1st place.*So now with NC, me doing anything & everything each day to show my husband I do love him & I am never going to hurt him as I have up until now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Allybabe_18 said:


> So I think for the most part our R has been going fairly smoothly. I am doing everything I possible can to re-assure my BS that I want to be here, I chose to be here, I never want to be with anyone else and I am sorry beyond words for all the hurt I have caused him & our family.





Allybabe_18 said:


> I am wondering how other ws deal when triggers happen? I see 1st hand how many triggers a bs deals with but sometimes their triggers are ours as well.
> 
> I have not & will not break NC. I think I am super analysing his actions & what they may do to him because I am very angry at him for his part in crushing my marriage, not because I still care positively about him. But the latter is prob what my H thinks though. I really feel like i cannot just ignore my thoughts cuz I want to learn how to break them because I want to give not 1 minute more of my life to that man.



all of this while in their 7 months of R she never stopped talking and later sleeping with the OM, she was convincing the OM to divorce and to get together, when "dingerdad" found the truth in DD3 it was too late, in DD3 she left home to be with the OM, but "dingerdad" was at least happy that she left and he was with his kids in his home, but it did not stopped there, they were ploting for months, "dingerdad" didn't even have time to defend himself as he believed in his R, she now with the power and money of the OM (who is a millionare) went viciously after him take the home and the kids from him and he had to move out to a new town 45 minutes away form his kids.

I know that there a FWW like you, EI, Mrs Adams, tears, wulfpack girl, sophie, that would do anything to regain the trust of their BS and to heal them, but there are also those who pretend to be the more sincere and regreteful WS to make damage control while they look for a better situation or conditions to leave their BSs (if they have the opportunity), and there is no way to differenciate one of the other at the beginning (as in Acoa's, very hurt's and frost flower's case), so the only thing the BS can do is have his/her defense up and misstrust the WS to see if in the end the intentions were real or just damage control.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> So essentially a WS could say, "I know I am prone to selfish behavior under x conditions. It is my responsibility to be self-aware enough to share how I'm feeling with my partner and monitor my thoughts and actions so that I will not default to those selfish patterns of behavior." To me, that seems like one of the essential aspects when working to rebuild trust.
> 
> Thanks for reading along as I think out loud, or on-screen, as it were.


Mrs_M, this is precisely the way a self-aware WS could address pre-affair conditions in the marriage without appearing to be making excuses (of the type "I know it was my choice *but*...."). The only thing I would add would be "I am also going to take steps to change my propensity to act selfishly under X conditions."

I hope things are going better for you and Matt since the last time you upodated TAM on your R.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


IMO the BS has to make every effort to make an honest judgement, and be honest with themselves, on whether their WS is a person worthy of their trust and love, despite their cheating.....or instead is a person so skilled at lying and manipulation that the BS has so far been blind to just how enormous the character deficit of the WS is......the WS' infidelity being the BS' wake up call to this.

I think that should be the #1 determination on the BS plate after DDay. In the first instance R might be considered. In the second instance it should not. Any work done on the marriage should take place AFTER the BS decides this, not before.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

Mrs. Mathias,

I had to think about whether I really wanted to make this response because I don't like saying anything that could be considered hateful or harmful particularly when I can appreciate you as a remorseful person for your actions.

I take exception to you using the problems in a marriage as a reason for faithlessness. I know you said that there were better ways to cope but the marital shortcomings are still front and center in your treatise. You left personal flaws as the last consideration and I think that should always be number one.

It wasn't your poor coping skills that had you offer your husband a false reconciliation after your first discovery day. Was it your habit to lie that caused you to put up a thread that you finally had to admit was just smoke and mirrors? One of and if I'm correct your husband's biggest problems with your reconciliation is believing that you were capable of that behavior.

In the beginning of your post you mention that it is the betrayed spouse that has to rebuild trust and I totally agree. It was put there by him not you. You could only destroy it and what he replaces it with will never be the same as it was. It can be relationship sustaining but it will never be the same.

I wonder if your reason for posting really is about a pre-existing and still current perceived shortcoming in your marriage. If not why highlight it? I know these words don't validate your post and will be argued with by others but I never want to feel that just because I can empathize with a poster that I can't say what I think. I don't remember if I said it to your husband or DevastatedDad but I think that a remorseful spouse and 100% of your children is far better than an uncertainty in the next relationship and 50% of the time with the children.

Good luck to your family,

Seasalt


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

seasalt said:


> Mrs. Mathias,
> 
> I had to think about whether I really wanted to make this response because I don't like saying anything that could be considered hateful or harmful particularly when I can appreciate you as a remorseful person for your actions.
> 
> ...


Actually Seasalt, I am not speaking of my situation at all. I am musing on several threads lately that have had some lengthy exchanges when talking about marital problems before the infidelity. The point I was trying to articulate is that IF there were issues pre-affair (and IMO, every marriage can benefit from improvement) how can you approach them post-infidelity in a manner that clearly communicates the WS is not using that as a "reason" for the affair.

If you interpreted my post as saying marital problems were a "reason" for my affair, or any affair, then I failed atq communicating my thoughts accurately. I'm sorry for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

manticore said:


> I liked your reflection but he problem I think that lies
> 
> The Ws can easily pretend to be thinking that and even concede to all the requests of the BS, playing a role but in fact their intentions maybe are dishonest.
> 
> ...


Apologies for the thread jack, thanks for posting this example, this is eye opening and helpful.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

manticore said:


> I liked your reflection but the problem I think that lies in the fact that the BS have no way to know if the WS is sincerely thinking something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can appreciate that difficulty. I don't believe this is a stage for beginning reconciliation. Definitely a LOT of work needs to be done to address the harm caused by infidelity and the transparency and consistency of action necessary to even begin to reestablish a tiny amount of trust.

I was more thinking about the relationship building much further down the line, and how to help the BS feel that the WS really understands that it was their Internal issues that caused them to choose to cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I could tick a lot of boxes for this discussion. I feel some background is important here, but I'll try to summarize - sorry in advance for the length. My affair flowchart would be pretty screwed up, so I doubt my case is entirely typical in that way, but my ww has/had a lot of the typical cheater traits. Those things are big triggers for me now, and they have been focused upon in R not only to prevent future cases of infidelity, but to create a more healthy relationship. It's also made her happier, more decisive, and less of a slave to her emotions and perceptions.

I also take exception to "unmet needs" being used as a defense in the same method of the insanity plea. I can come to accept it being used to explain why a person screwed up, as long as blame is accepted and not absolved by the inclusion of aggravating circumstances. Ultimately, it falls on the person and a weakness within them, possibly antagonized by the situation, but in the end every person has a choice. They have a choice not only before they consummate the affair, but in every step towards that event. They have a choice allowing this person to enter their minds in a romantic or lustful way, and once that has happened, they have a choice of whether to discuss it openly or allow it to progress behind their spouse's back. They make not a single choice, or a single mistake, but a series of mistakes. Hundreds, thousands even...

I also know what it feels like to have unmet needs. For ~a decade? Something like that. I communicated, I'm attractive, fit, etc... but she didn't care. She viewed sex as a chore that could be checked off the calendar once a month or every 6 months, and she also viewed it as dirty and wrong, so you can imagine the sex life I had. I wanted sex every day in every way, but I got "oh, just do it already" enough times per year to count on my hands. She came 3-4 times for every time I did. This was the entirety of our sex life.

She was also mean, selfish, didn't cook (I did), sat on her phone after work all day, and went to sleep early. Depression, if you hadn't guessed. I couldn't budge her from her funk. I should have separated, and if that hadn't worked, I probably should have moved on with my life. Maybe I should have after the affair, and maybe I still should. She's doing a great job in all aspects of R, but it may be too late.

I came here a few years before I joined to browse the sex in marriage forums, and that's how I discovered this place and knew to come here. I tried the 180 at that point, got a new job, and began moving my life forward. I still wasn't ready to let go of her yet. I just wanted her to *get it*, and I kept waiting, trying, and hoping things would improve. A few months into my new job, she was driving me home from a co-worker's birthday party and crashed. My own head struck my chest with such force that my ribs were more sore than my crushed upper spine. I don't remember much, but I remember pulling her away from the wreck, then collapsing in tense pain.

I've had countless troubles from the accident... medical, financial, insurance, legal, etc... and these took a toll on me. I was no longer able or no longer cared to carry the relationship on my back. When I said I wasn't happy, she said go cheat, just come home to me. I explained to her what a relationship meant to me and why I was not down for that kind of arrangement. I did the same when I felt something wasn't right on her end. She reassured me. She was alive again. Lively, happy, sexual. She was having an affair with a co-worker who was able to go out and do the fun stuff I was no longer able to do at that time. He brought her back to life.

We all face hardships and temptations, and we all deal with them differently. In the case of my wayward, she avoided, deflected, and excused all faults within herself. She was _so flawed_, yet _so perfect_. She was naive yet all knowing, selfish yet the most giving person to live, entitled yet hard-working, etc. More details to "explain" her actions would only make things worse. I have my own faults, chiefly anger, but at least I've known this is a fault of mine since I was a child. I've been trying to control it since I was a child. And I'm much, much better at it now. Her faults were running wild due to her "I'm perfect, I deserve 100% happiness all the time" mindset.

So yeah, if I was even going to try to R, and I have been committed to giving it the best shot I can, I was not going to tolerate any of the above bullcrap. Relationships are simple when people don't go out of their way to complicate them.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

If I remember Mrs. M he pretty much gave you or I should say, he had 3 ddays.
That is a heck of a lot to recover from if at all.
I hope for Mr. M you are truly remorseful.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Casby, your description is exactly the point I am trying, but apparently failing to clearly express.

You had unmet needs but did not react by having an affair. So when someone says they have unmet needs, and both parties are committed to working on reconciliation, the WS has to recognize and communicate to the BS that those weren't why they had an affair. Their own internal issues allowed them to choose to cheat.

BUT if both parties agree that the pre-affair marriage had room for improvement, then it should be that they both want to work for that improved state in reconciliation. NOT BECAUSE it caused the WS to cheat or even rationalize an affair, but because both parties would be happier by improving those circumstances.

And again, I am not here commenting on MY marriage, affair, or reconciliation. I am simply responding to some of the comments lately about pre-affair circumstances, and "ensuring a WS doesn't cheat again" (which can ONLY be done by the WS, btw.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

I think you made your point quite clearly, Mrs_M.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You had unmet needs but did not react by having an affair. So when someone says they have unmet needs, and both parties are committed to working on reconciliation, the WS has to recognize and communicate to the BS that those weren't why they had an affair. Their own internal issues allowed them to choose to cheat.


I agree, and I think I know some of the threads to which you were referring to in the OP, and this was a main reason some posters took exception to the use of "unmet needs" as a perceived justification.


Mrs_Mathias said:


> BUT if both parties agree that the pre-affair marriage had room for improvement, then it should be that they both want to work for that improved state in reconciliation. NOT BECAUSE it caused the WS to cheat or even rationalize an affair, but because both parties would be happier by improving those circumstances.


Agreed again. Her mindset and unhealthy habits were toxic to our relationship. My allowing her behavior to persist and probably unconsciously reinforcing it exacerbated the situation. I don't focus on these qualities to beat her up but because they are toxic and no longer have any place in our relationship. 

In my case I was having my needs unmet for a long time and also became the BS. There are areas where I have and need to make improvements, but by an large, this R is dependent upon her. For a BS who was the one "neglecting" the WS, you're then asking a recently traumatized person to go out of themselves to improve things for the sake of the person that betrayed them. For a healthy relationship and for the R to have the best chance in the long run, the BS will need to move past what happened and carry his/her weight in this regard, but the WS would need to be understanding and would likely carry a heavier share of the burden for some time.

I also began typing my above post well before I posted it. I have to get up a lot and posts are delayed, thus threads can move beyond the point to which I am speaking, especially if I'm making a lengthy post.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


You are on the right path. You must learn to communicate your true feeling and realize you too have value.

You must learn to trust too. Trust Matt (Dr. Mathias in my books) then learn to trust yourself.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


There is another side to this conversation... 

It's all good and fine (and, to be honest, somewhat constructive) for a WS/FWS and his/her BS -- having committed to reconciliation -- to work toward fully identifying and understanding any needs that may have been unmet, unaddressed, etc pre-affair BUT... Once this insight has been gained, the following question will always remain -- _precisely *HOW* were those needs being met by the AP?_

After all, sometimes the only real "need" that went "unmet" was the WS's desire to head out and get some strange.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

A very interesting discussion here. I agree with the comments of Cabsy and of course, as always, Gus brings it back to some basic facts. Here is my view of this (and it is based on life experience too).

I look at this with regard to two separate issues: relationship problems (including unmet needs) AND infidelity with a strong focus on the word "choices".

Most if not all marriages have relationship problems (unmet needs being part of this). The normal (non cheating) course of action would be one of the following:
- discuss and work on it and hope it gets better;
- ignore and hope one can cope;
- get relationship help and it works;
- get relationship help but it still doesn't work.

In any case the end result is one of these:

bad marriage with heavy coping on one or both sides
divorce
a better, stronger and more fulfilling marriage

OK now throw cheating into the mix. The reason for the infidelity could be rightly or wrongly linked to the unmet needs but it is a BAD choice. Really bad choice. And if one takes Gus' comments into consideration then it is just about lust, hedonistic wants, taboo thrill ... whatever (but BAD).

As a side note: when I was a kid, an excellent pair of parents spent most of their time teaching me about how to make choices and warned me that most people don't always make the best choices (including choices between good and bad, right and wrong, selfish and unselfish etc). However, they also taught me that one must be able to live and cope with the consequences of their choices. So while trying to make the best choice, whenever I made a bad choice I dealt with the consequences (this is where my wonderful 300+ year old school came in and helped with becoming a "man").

Now one of the consequences of infidelity is that your normal marriage/relationship process of dealing with unmet needs or problems is derailed. You have introduced new, unimaginable pain and destruction into the relationship. Expecting to deal with unmet needs in a normal (whatever that is) manner after reconciliation is unrealistic. The two items are now forever linked: relationship problems & the accompanying need to address them AND dealing with the infidelity.

So what I am trying to say (in a way too wordy manner) is that yes, the couple does need to work on their unmet needs but that dealing with the infidelity takes precedence at this stage. Most of the marriages that go through this do not make it through dealing with infidelity in the R process to even begin to worry about unmet needs. However the "relationship problems that existed" elephant is very much in the room.

It takes a special breed (EI and B1, Mr & Mrs John Adams, maybe Devastated Dad & Changing Me, maybe yourself and Dr Matthias) to get through this while both remembering that they also have to work on the relationship problems. 

Most of what you will read about here is just dealing with that painful infidelity thing first.

My tuppence worth! Hope I made some sense.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

manticore said:


> I liked your............
> 
> I know that there a FWW like you, EI, Mrs Adams, tears, wulfpack girl, sophie, that would do anything to regain the trust of their BS and to heal them, but there are also those who pretend to be the more sincere and regreteful WS to make damage control while they look for a better situation or conditions to leave their BSs (if they have the opportunity), and there is no way to differenciate one of the other at the beginning (as in Acoa's, very hurt's and frost flower's case), so the only thing the BS can do is have his/her defense up and misstrust the WS to see if in the end the intentions were real or just damage control.


Good point 4 ddays and a year and a half separated stbxw wants to come home at xmas!? and you have just described that scenario more or less the same for me 

In the3 times before that last the intentions were not real they were the damage control you speak of so again and again my love head and fear lead m to reconcile. On the last one I threw her out. AT xmas we did kind of establish we still love each other despite everything BUT this time my defense was in place. I thought of the life we had before, old boyfriends always on the periphery of our lives etc and a lot of other stuff and this she intended to be the same come home and almost carry on as if nothing had happened !!!

I said no

____

In terms of each reconciliation clearly we rugswept and hoped it would all be alright or maybe I did more of that as she just gave a sigh of relief and was always in a position to carry on eating cake


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> After all, sometimes the only real "need" that went "unmet" was the WS's desire to head out and get some strange.


Good point, Gus, and I think explicitly acknowledging this as a character flaw (for lack of a better term) on the part of the WS that needs to be addressed by both WS and BS is what Mrs_M is talking about.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> There is another side to this conversation...
> 
> It's all good and fine (and, to be honest, somewhat constructive) for a WS/FWS and his/her BS -- having committed to reconciliation -- to work toward fully identifying and understanding any needs that may have been unmet, unaddressed, etc pre-affair BUT... Once this insight has been gained, the following question will always remain -- _precisely *HOW* were those needs being met by the AP?_
> 
> _After all, sometimes the only real "need" that went "unmet" was the WS's desire to head out and get some strange._


Precisely, we did talk about what was wrong underneath but ultimately the truth is there was little that was inherently wrong with the marriage - in the end she was going to step out no matter what our situation was .

I kept thinking "its me its me" "I need to change this or that" *she changed nothing* 
and so the truth was no matter what it was never going to work whilst she had that entitlement selfish core to her whole personality which now two years out of separation is so annoyingly easy to see ! :scratchhead:


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Well I have my own views --- yes, the marriage had difficulties before the affair but, no offense, these were 50/50 and when WSs come on here and point to the problems in the marriage as the reason as to why they cheated - well, 2 people had similar problems and one chose to cheat. So obviously something is up with one not the other. That being, entitlement - feeling entitled to cheat, feeling they deserved better, not looking to see what they were doing wrong. could be the reason the relationship was in the condition it was in the first place. When I saw my ex for the first time in nearly 2 years last Christmas and I apologized for "my part" in the breakdown she said "It is water under the bridge". Hmm NOT "Sorry I chose to cheat" NOT "sorry for breaking up a family", I could go on.
Then when I asked her to admit to being sorry for the affair she said "I am not sorry". She felt fully justified - in her way of dealing with things. I knew I did not want her back after that. It would be her feeling entitled all over again. Sadly my kids pay for her BS. 

SO the problem I have with recognizing the problems in the marriage hypothesis is they sound like post hoc rationalizations for someone justifying what they did. yes there were problems, EVERYONE married knows there are problems in a marriage. But the cheating is playing dirty and that is the real problem. What it is really saying is "when I am unhappy or feel the need to fulfill myself, I can break all boundaries because I am entitled to."

Did my ex do a great job raising our 2 boys? Yes
Was she a good mother? Yes
Was she a good spouse for me for years? Yes
Was she reasonably good looking for her age? Yes
Was I inconsiderate at times? Yes
Was I neglectful at times? Yes
Did all these things entitle her to have an affair? NO
Thus the problem all along......entitlement.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> After all, sometimes the only real "need" that went "unmet" was the WS's desire to head out and get some strange.


I think if this is truly the case, reconciliation would be incredibly difficult. What protections could the WS offer the BS to show they will not give into that "need" again? Some substantial reflection would have to occur for the WS to understand WHY they felt like they "needed" that. Was it an ego boost, boredom, thrill of the chase? What within them allowed them to choose to focus their energies in that direction? IMO the "desire to get some strange" may be the "reason" for infidelity but it did not CAUSE them to choose to pursue that. Does that make sense or is it a meaningless distinction?


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ego feeding...

I'm going to expand that a bit..

There are times when the need to feed ego surpasses the amount the betrayed spouse has given. Sometimes that is through neglect. BUT sometimes, it's not, sometimes it is that the hole in the WS was so large that that "weakness" eventually surfaced, thus the situations where someone steps out even with a very affectionate, affirming spouse. That extra depth must be examined and filled in by the person possessing the hole.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think if this is truly the case, reconciliation would be incredibly difficult. *What protections could the WS offer the BS to show they will not give into that "need" again? *Some substantial reflection would have to occur for the WS to understand WHY they felt like they "needed" that. Was it an ego boost, boredom, thrill of the chase? What within them allowed them to choose to focus their energies in that direction? IMO the "desire to get some strange" may be the "reason" for infidelity but it did not CAUSE them to choose to pursue that. Does that make sense or is it a meaningless distinction?


I guess a frank discussion about the two separate issues is needed as I tried to explain in my previous post. First there is the infidelity and dealing with it and needing to set a timeline by which true remorse should not only be actively demonstrated by WS but also accepted by BS (this could be years so beware). And then there is the still present need to frankly discuss relationship problems and unmet needs on both sides.

If the BS is truly OK with this then it can be done.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,

This is very good. 

The distinction that can be safely made is between feelings and actions. 

A WS can fairly say: I'm NOT going to cheat again, I accept that I've used up my one 'get out of jail free card'. And I will do all the things that ensure transparency and prevent betrayal. 

That said, a key measure of the strength of a relationship is the degree to which I FEEL indifferent to the sexual attention of third parties. Here are the things that tend to help me feel indifferent to the attention of others. 

While I take total responsibility for how I behave, those things do impact how I feel. 





Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I' cheated and am responsible for that choice. There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair..



I am solely responsible for my choices, but somebody else is responsible too.

Double-talk.

People with integrity own their choices. Period. Nobody contributed to your choice to cheat. Nobody made you vulnerable. You chose that path. That's on you.

This kind of non-taking responsiblity is right up there with the political non-apology.

You chose to lie, cheat, and so on rather than deal with things in an above-board manner. And you're still doing it.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I have a friend who is a family lawyer and he used to say to me over and over (before I knew about my ex) "affairs are not about sex - they are about anger" and one spouse saying ultimately to the other spouse "fvck you" so take this. In essence, I believe him...it is the ultimate betrayal. Somewhere along the line before the pants drop to the floor - the person doing the betraying knows they are hurting the BS but goes ahead and does it anyway. So it really is fvck you to the BS. They may deny it or rationalize it but they know they are betraying the BS - thus the term.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I believe that people cheat for a reason, and if that reason doesn't go away, they will cheat again. The reason may be internal - they may simply be selfish or evil. The reason may be external, their partner may be denying them something. 

There is a very valid point that it is always better to leave than to cheat, but there may be cases where leaving will do more harm then cheating. 

So I believe that if someone has cheated, the couple should figure out why. If they can make the reason go away, the cheating will probably stop. If they can't then they have to assume it will continue.


The cheater is at "fault", but I believe that "fault" is the least important thing in a relationship. Each party has the option to leave if they want. If you stay, you need to forgive the other. If you leave, it simply doesn't matter who was at "fault".


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> I am solely responsible for my choices, but somebody else is responsible too.
> 
> Double-talk.
> 
> ...


I have to agree.....for better or worse? or is it for better or else?


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

manticore said:


> I liked your reflection but the problem I think that lies in the fact that the BS have no way to know if the WS is sincerely thinking something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: :iagree: :iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## WolverineFan (Nov 26, 2013)

I appreciate the conversation and freely admit that I did not read all of the threads that have been posted. I have experience with this topic, however, because I spent several years counseling couples as a minister and continue now through forums like this. The key issue in any attempt to reconcile is establishing a foundation of trust to rebuild the relationship. This, obviously, requires both parties to be active participants. This process takes time because the offended partner requires a certain amount of time to get through the "hurt" and the "why did this happen" stage so that honest and meaningful review of the relationship can take place.

Some offended partners never do get to the point where they can objectively look at the relationship and acknowledge that there were issues on their part that may have contributed to the betrayal. Again, we are talking about couples who are trying to reconcile after an affair. There is hope because there are many instances when these marriages are healed and are much stronger than before the affair took place.

In conclusion, every human being alive has a nature of selfishness. We do not express it the same way but we all have to overcome it. Marriage is an institution established by God not only for our pleasure and for procreation, but also to form our character. When a marriage is established in the forgiveness of God and built on the foundation of His love, it is much more likely to stand the test of time and to experience true fulfillment. Blessings on all who read this!


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

WolverineFan said:


> Some offended partners never do get to the point where they can objectively look at the relationship and acknowledge that there were issues on their part that may have contributed to the betrayal.


Healthy people fall into the category of not buying this nonsense too.

You see, not everybody buys into the "I had to do something terrible and inappropriate and had no choice because... something" excuses.

I bet it goes over big in the "Hey baby, I love you, but when I ask you to get me a beer and you say, 'get it yourself', I just want to smash your mother-effin face. I'm sorry I hit you, but you shouldn't do that" school of thought though.

I think chronic abusers and their enablers have the 'objectivity' you seek.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I don't think that Mrs. Matthias is saying that there were problems in the relationship that caused the cheating. What I think she is saying is this:


The cheater was wrong to cheat and must own that wrong and must actively show remorse for it. There is no excuse for cheating.

There may have been weaknesses in the cheater and problems in his/her relationship that made the cheater more vulnerable to cheating and it is the cheater's responsibility to identify those weaknesses and problems that made him/her more vulnerable so that he/she can ensure they never cheat again. By working on the weaknesses and those specific relationship problems. When does that happen ?

Quite separately to this, there may have also been other (possibly major) problems in the relationship which still have to be dealt with, cheating or not. When does this begin to get addressed ?

Now this is not really the equivalent of saying I cheated because there were problems. It is more of if there were problems that made me more vulnerable I need to address them just as I am addressing my weaknesses. And also I need to address other relationship problems at some stage.

And all I have said is that stage comes after the BS is in a position to address them jointly.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

manfromlamancha said:


> I don't think that Mrs. Matthias is saying that there were problems in the relationship that caused the cheating..



And I quote_: "There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair".._

Did we read the same thing, or did you skip all the blame-shifting?


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> And I quote_: "There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair".._
> 
> Did we read the same thing, or did you skip all the blame-shifting?


And I quote_: (Please note, the following use of "I" here is generic - this is not my situation, I'm simply trying to phrase what I see and think from other posters.)_

Did we read the same thing, or were you cherry picking from my post because it doesn't suit your agenda?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> And I quote_: (Please note, the following use of "I" here is generic - this is not my situation, I'm simply trying to phrase what I see and think from other posters.)_
> 
> Did we read the same thing, or were you cherry picking from my post because it doesn't suit your agenda?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is my agenda? lol. The whole "I will try to induce guilt/shame to shift attention away from the fact that I am blamshifting something I chose to do" tactic is tired too.




> _T*o put it more plainly, the (average) narcissist is unable to answer the question: "Why did you do what you did?" or "Why did you choose this mode of action over others available to you under the same circumstances?"* These decisions are taken unconsciously.
> 
> *The narcissist deliberately confuses responsibility with guilt.* The concepts are so close that the distinctions often get blurred. By provoking guilt in responsibility-laden situations, the narcissist transforms life with them into a constant trial.
> 
> Failures, for instance, induce guilt. The narcissist always labels someone else's efforts as "failures" and then proceeds to shift the responsibility for said failures to the victim so as to maximise the opportunity to chastise and castigate._


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

I don't know your agenda. It's just seems that you are deliberately ignoring information that I am attempting to provide. I think, based on what you posted about narcissism, that we are actually in agreement. In my original post I emphasize the importance of identifying and understanding the personal flaws/weaknesses that enabled the cheater to choose cheating over a different option.

The piece that goes with that for me is understanding all factors in that decision. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Each choice is the product of biology/inherent character, upbringing, past experiences, current circumstances, and predicted future results (although this last could be debated). When a WS is working to help reestablish trust, the emphasis is on actions. Those actions are often things like sharing passwords for transparency, accounting for time, eliminating toxic friends, changing work environment and so on.

Did any of those things cause a cheater to cheat? No, but they are tangible external factors that can be controlled to lessen the likelihood of cheating again. If I were a BS attempting reconciliation, it would be important and measurable for me to know that my spouse recognized their fundamental personal flaws as well as the circumstances, people, and places that would make them more likely to succumb to those flaws.

No one is responsible for anyone else's choices. But if you care about someone and have significant energy invested in them, wouldn't you want to help put them in a position to make good choices, instead of deliberately exploiting their weakness and then daring them to fail?

I am NOT saying any spouse behaved this way pre-affair. But I do think if reconciliation is the goal, it would be short-sighted of both parties to accept a WS simply saying, "I am weak and selfish," without also attempting to understand in what situations they are more likely to act on those weaknesses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't know your agenda. It's just seems that you are deliberately ignoring information that I am attempting to provide. I think, based on what you posted about narcissism, that we are actually in agreement. In my original post I emphasize the importance of identifying and understanding the personal flaws/weaknesses that enabled the cheater to choose cheating over a different option.
> 
> The piece that goes with that for me is understanding all factors in that decision. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Each choice is the product of biology/inherent character, upbringing, past experiences, current circumstances, and predicted future results (although this last could be debated). When a WS is working to help reestablish trust, the emphasis is on actions. Those actions are often things like sharing passwords for transparency, accounting for time, eliminating toxic friends, changing work environment and so on.
> 
> ...


That is the key to self-growth in all areas. Find out where you are weak and why and work to strengthen those areas. I think this is a good plan for anyone who finds themselves at the end of a string of terrible decisions. This type of reflection can lead to growth. It is not easy but it is doable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MM,

You are at risk of becoming a victim of the caste system on TAM. 

There are three primary castes on TAM:
- Brahmans: believe that all cheaters are bad/unethical people.
- Moderates: believe that good people sometimes betray their spouses, such betrayal can take many forms and that there are very large differences in the degree of betrayal including situations where extramarital sex occurs 
- Untouchables: These are folks who are labelled as such by Brahmans. They can redeem themselves over time if they grovel sufficiently and accept that they have mostly forfeited their right to be treated as an equal in the marriage. For Brahmans, reconciliation is a never ending process, not a discrete process that ends in true forgiveness. 




QUOTE=Mrs_Mathias;9617417]I don't know your agenda. It's just seems that you are deliberately ignoring information that I am attempting to provide. I think, based on what you posted about narcissism, that we are actually in agreement. In my original post I emphasize the importance of identifying and understanding the personal flaws/weaknesses that enabled the cheater to choose cheating over a different option.

The piece that goes with that for me is understanding all factors in that decision. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Each choice is the product of biology/inherent character, upbringing, past experiences, current circumstances, and predicted future results (although this last could be debated). When a WS is working to help reestablish trust, the emphasis is on actions. Those actions are often things like sharing passwords for transparency, accounting for time, eliminating toxic friends, changing work environment and so on.

Did any of those things cause a cheater to cheat? No, but they are tangible external factors that can be controlled to lessen the likelihood of cheating again. If I were a BS attempting reconciliation, it would be important and measurable for me to know that my spouse recognized their fundamental personal flaws as well as the circumstances, people, and places that would make them more likely to succumb to those flaws?

No one is responsible for anyone else's choices. But if you care about someone and have significant energy invested in them, wouldn't you want to help put them in a position to make good choices, instead of deliberately exploiting their weakness and then daring them to fail.

I am NOT saying any spouse behaved this way pre-affair. But I do think if reconciliation is the goal, it would be short-sighted of both parties to accept a WS simply saying, "I am weak and selfish," without also attempting to understand in what situations they are more likely to act on those weaknesses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't know your agenda. It's just seems that you are deliberately ignoring information that I am attempting to provide.


Everything that follows the blameshifting is irrelevant if it continues.

It's that simple.

I am responsible for my choices. You are responsible for yours.

Nobody "makes me vulnerable" to making terrible and hurtful choices. The very act of blameshifting is a continuance of the core bad behavior. In fact, it's a hallmark trait of narcissistic persons that they cannot even explain why they chose to behave destructively and underhandedly as opposed to acting in an assertive, above board manner. And FTR, "I was selfish" is not an explanation that explains that choice. There are lots of selfish acts that don't demonstrate utter contempt and disregard for the pain of others. You could have selfishly taken up jogging and spent most of your free time doing that and ignoring your spouse and your share of domestic duties, for example. People do lots of selfish things without inflicting great trauma on others.

Anybody who leads off that way would do better to get into serious therapy than to lecuture others on their behavior.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

TruthHeals, let me ask this:

Have you ever purchased a gift for someone? Did you consider their likes, their desires, and their usage of the gift when you selected it? Would you say those factors influenced your choice of gift? You are responsible for choosing the gift, but I would wager that it was not a blind choice, but was in fact influenced by the recipient as well as personal factors such as budget, shopping time, and item availability. I don't see that as blameshifting, you are not saying the recipient forced you to buy that gift. But you are acknowledging that changing those factors would influence your choice of gift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> And I quote_: "There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair".._
> 
> Did we read the same thing, or did you skip all the blame-shifting?


This discussion is beyond blame and responsibility. Everyone agrees (including Mrs_Mathias) that the cheater is 100 percent no-ifs-ands-or-buts to blame for cheating. That bus has left the station.

The discussion here is, for those in R, how to understand and address the motivations of the 100-percent-to-blame cheater (which may be as simple as "I wanted to") in order to ensure as far as is possible that it will not happen again. And if these motivations (in the rationalizing mind of the cheater) stem from (perceived) cracks in the marriage foundation, then it is worth surfacing them and discussing them in this context, without regarding them as objectively true or valid reasons for cheating.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Philat said:


> Everyone agrees (including Mrs_Mathias) that the cheater is 100 percent no-ifs-ands-or-buts to blame for cheating. That bus has left the station.



Nonsense. That bus has no engine because it's "marriage made it vulnerable"


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> TruthHeals, let me ask this:
> You are responsible for choosing the gift, but I would wager that it was not a blind choice, but was in fact influenced by the recipient as well as personal factors such as budget, shopping time, and item availability. I don't see that as blameshifting, you are not saying the recipient forced you to buy that gift. But you are acknowledging that changing those factors would influence your choice of gift.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this is a bad analogy MM - a gift? cmon...Infidelity is betrayal and immoral. Not exactly a gift...:scratchhead:


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> TruthHeals, let me ask this:
> 
> Have you ever purchased a gift for someone? Did you consider their likes, their desires, and their usage of the gift when you selected it? Would you say those factors influenced your choice of gift? You are responsible for choosing the gift, but I would wager that it was not a blind choice, but was in fact influenced by the recipient as well as personal factors such as budget, shopping time, and item availability. I don't see that as blameshifting, you are not saying the recipient forced you to buy that gift. But you are acknowledging that changing those factors would influence your choice of gift.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Look, anybody who compares demonstrating total contempt for the wellbeing of their spouse and family by conducting an adulterous affair to buying somebody a gift has bigger problems than I know how to address.

I've already suggested therapy, and the reason I did so is because I am not prepared or equipped to follow you down your rabbit hole where choosing a gift is an apt comparrison to screwing people other than your spouse and all of the lying, gaslighting and blameshifting that apparently goes on with that kind of underhanded behavior.

If that's how you want to live your life, go ahead, but healthy, assertive people with good boundaries won't buy into it, and I'm suprised you haven't noticed that already.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Ok. I'm sorry. I was in no way equating adultery with gift buying, simply trying to illustrate that choices are based on something. I will refrain from speaking directly to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I think it safe to say that OP is recognizing a pattern of said vulnerability as a painful place for many WS's and some make a poor choice in how to handle that pain, but that poor choice in and of itself in no way absolves the reality that the pain was their prior to WS's poor choice and needed to be addressed in the above board fashion you are recommending. She is putting voice to that dynamic that she is seeing on TAM and in no way means she should be accused of excusing her personal choice in her own situation and for this to continue as such adds up to me as abusive false accusation. 

I say this not to upset anyone. Yet reality is that when we ask someone else to look at their behavior we must be willing to look at our own.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok. I'm sorry. I was in no way equating adultery with gift buying, simply trying to illustrate that choices are based on something. I will refrain from speaking directly to you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand what you are trying to say Mrs. M - you think the reasons why the Ws was prone to cheat should be explored and BOTH the BS and WS should be aware of the weaknesses and seek to fix them. It is not blameshfting but rather taking responsibility for ones own shortcomings and letting the BS know what they are and that the WS is trying to fix them.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't usually go along with the all or nothing view. I can go along with seeing the state of the marriage as being a small - very small - contributing factor. Most marriages were not perfect pre-affair, and you can probably say no matter how great things were that there was room for improvement, even if only slight improvement. And there are always other choices besides cheating when a marriage is going downhill, such as divorce.

But from the standpoint of a betrayed spouse, it cuts like a knife to hear about what wasn't right with the marriage when you talk to us about how that figured in when you made the choices that you did - when you decided to deceive, or decided to have sex with that person. 

In a long list of "contributing factors," several personal problems/weaknesses and situational factors are on the list for my husband, but WAY, WAY down on the list are a couple of communication issues in our marriage that "contributed" to his discontent at that point in time. He knows those were minor compared to his OWN mental health issues, which were exacerbated by some physical health problems at the time. And by his cutting back his medication to half a pill every other day (which is like taking none at all).

When he says "I wasn't in my right mind," I know he wasn't - he wasn't acting like himself, and I attributed it to the medical stuff, as well as the unusually crazy work travel schedule. It was a perfect storm. His coping skills sucked - and he knows it. For him to have suggested that our marriage problems "contributed" in a significant way would have infuriated me and made R unlikely if not impossible.

I would re-word the paragraph in question this way:

"I cheated and am responsible for that choice. *Most* of the factors that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair have to do with me and me alone, and if not for my weaknesses, this never would have happened. *Much smaller* contributing factors were the factor of opportunity, and factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair. I am working hard to identify and understand what personal weaknesses allowed me to react to those circumstances by having an affair, rather than coping with them in a more healthy and straightforward manner."


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> IMO the BS has to make every effort to make an honest judgement, and be honest with themselves, on whether their WS is a person worthy of their trust and love, despite their cheating.....or instead is a person so skilled at lying and manipulation that the BS has so far been blind to just how enormous the character deficit of the WS is......the WS' infidelity being the BS' wake up call to this.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that should be the #1 determination on the BS plate after DDay. In the first instance R might be considered. In the second instance it should not. Any work done on the marriage should take place AFTER the BS decides this, not before.



This...

I made that call after Dday1. Mrs ACOA is a wonderful loving person. To this day I believe she loves me and would tell me anything I want to hear if she thought it would save me from pain. But she is weak and can't stand rejection. She continually put herself in bad situations rather than end bad friendships. So in the end her promises are only empty words. Not because she doesn't want to honor them, but because she lacks the will to make the hard choices it takes to stick to them. 

She blamed the state of our relationship for making her vulnerable rather than accepting that she is weak and broken and trying to rely on others to make her feel whole. The fact is, our relationship was pretty good, it just wasn't enough. There is no enough on the planet because she was trying to solve an internal problem with external things.

Superficially she sees that now, but I don't think she will do the hard work of trying to fix herself. I don't trust that she can stay on that difficult path. She would try, but slip. Then she would hide her slips because they were incidental to her. She would believe that eventually she will stop for real, then it will be okay and no one need ever know. Part of her flaw is inability to admit when she is wrong. So, confessing transgressions is not in her.

She was much more skilled at lying and manipulation than I thought. I vastly underestimated my opponent, because I didn't see her as an opponent. That gave her great power over me. I believe she even disassociated these parts of her life to the point she was able to ignore the disparity. This, more than skill made it easy for her to deceive me. 

So, the BS has to not trust the WS. They have to test and investigate and interrogate. The WS has to accept that. Any WS who won't has something to hide. And that my friends only leads to Dday 2.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think if this is truly the case, reconciliation would be incredibly difficult. What protections could the WS offer the BS to show they will not give into that "need" again? Some substantial reflection would have to occur for the WS to understand WHY they felt like they "needed" that. Was it an ego boost, boredom, thrill of the chase? What within them allowed them to choose to focus their energies in that direction? IMO the "desire to get some strange" may be the "reason" for infidelity but it did not CAUSE them to choose to pursue that. *Does that make sense or is it a meaningless distinction?*


It makes sense. But... it is _potentially _a meaningless distinction.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I hear what everyone is saying, but there is a level of neglect that enters this picture that could not be classified as "way down on the list of contributing factors."

I personally have been on both sides of betrayal and the pain from neglect can be excruciating. As well as the pain from knowing you were there in every way for your spouse and they made that choice to cheat anyway. Both excruciating and hard to handle. But to minimize either is over simplification of the reality of experiencing either one in real time.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> TruthHeals, let me ask this:
> 
> Have you ever purchased a gift for someone? Did you consider their likes, their desires, and their usage of the gift when you selected it? Would you say those factors influenced your choice of gift? You are responsible for choosing the gift, but I would wager that it was not a blind choice, but was in fact influenced by the recipient as well as personal factors such as budget, shopping time, and item availability. I don't see that as blameshifting, you are not saying the recipient forced you to buy that gift. But you are acknowledging that changing those factors would influence your choice of gift.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I buy someone a gift and they freak out because it isn't exactly what they want......I won't be buying them any more gifts. That is an analogy to me not being perfect in a relationship(buying the wrong gift) and them cheating(freaking out because they don't like it)...to me kicking them to the curb(not buying any more gifts)


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Acoa said:


> This...
> 
> I made that call after Dday1. Mrs ACOA is a wonderful loving person. To this day I believe she loves me and would tell me anything I want to hear if she thought it would save me from pain. But she is weak and can't stand rejection. She continually put herself in bad situations rather than end bad friendships. So in the end her promises are only empty words. Not because she doesn't want to honor them, but because she lacks the will to make the hard choices it takes to stick to them.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!

And as for the part in bold, the lesson here is this... It is far easier to earn trust than it is to mend it.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Ok. I'm sorry. I was in no way equating adultery with gift buying, simply trying to illustrate that choices are based on something.


in other words, the choice to cheat is based on what their "victim" does or doesn't do exactly right.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> And I quote_: "There were factors in my marriage that contributed to my vulnerability to having an affair".._
> 
> Did we read the same thing, or did you skip all the blame-shifting?


OK I'll try for the last time to explain what I have said:


Infidelity/Cheating = wrong. No excuses for bad choice. Needs remorse, heavy lifting, boundaries etc etc

Relationship has problems = they still need to be dealt with at some stage regardless of cheating.

Avoiding cheating in future = cheater needs to identify personal vulnerabilities and ensure those vulnerabilities are dealt with. (Could be as simple as coping with lust and how to deal with lustful thoughts.) Now some of those vulnerabilities arise as a result of personal traits AND some due to problems in the relationship. *Both* need to be dealt with by the cheater to remove any chance of cheating in the future i.e. cheater has to deal with their own weaknesses as well as outside influences as well as anything they perceive in their relationship/marriage that might drive them outside.

I cannot put it any simpler than this. To assume that simply by showing remorse and some heavy lifting, a R is going to work (for both, I might add) is not realistic. The problems have to be dealt with. The question is WHEN during the R process do they get round to dealing with relationship and marriage issues.

And I need to stress I am not talking about Mrs M, I am discussing the topic she raised.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> in other words, the choice to cheat is based on what their "victim" does or doesn't do exactly right.


No. That is not what I have said at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

In some instances there is a victim created before a second victim is created... And should the second victim be created, no, but there are times when vicitimization was already at play in the WS and sometimes its not. 

This falls into that camp of two wrongs don't make a right in SOME of these cases.

They end up being two separate actions that have to be addressed separately AND comprehensively.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> Nonsense. That bus has no engine because it's "marriage made it vulnerable"


I'd respond if this made any sense at all. Oh well.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> Infidelity/Cheating = wrong. No excuses for bad choice. Needs remorse, heavy lifting, boundaries etc etc





Agreed



> [*]Relationship has problems = they still need to be dealt with at some stage regardless of cheating.


Agreed, with the exception of "regardless of cheating". Because one, there not necessarily need be a problem for some people to cheat.

And two, if a WS has some feeble excuse to cheat, then the relationship problems still would need to be dealt with if the BS decides to stay. Problem is, now that one spouse took that HUGE step over the line, that is a big elephant in the room that needs to go away before a BS can/should be able to work on problems on both sides.

Spouses that decide to reconcile can work on the problems and possibly save the marriage. But there is still one huge problem.....one still went out and got F'd by someone else.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> No. That is not what I have said at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





> choices are based on something


Ok, so the choices of which you speak are NOT based on problems with the BS?:scratchhead:


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

I understand why the OP and many others ponder how to figure out the deep underlying reasons that many of the FWS's cheated. It might make having a relaps of the cheating less likely and hopefully would help the attempt at R tohave a higher chance of succeeding.

This is admirable. I however have to wonder though, if while we are looking for the answers to be in some big extravagant equation and it's actually as simple as 2+1=FU...

I think an earlier poster had it right. One spouse is p1ssed at the other and cheating is just a big FU to the other spouse.

There may be dozens of reasons, large and small. No two are exactly alike except for the big FU.

I think how a cheating spouse cheated says a lot about what kind of FU it is. One cheating spouse has a ONS, confesses the next day. Another has a 6 month affair with a boss and is outed by an anoyed coworker. The last has an intense EA, get's caught by their spouse. Swears it's over and then goes PA with the affiar afterwards.

All 3 cheated, but how they cheated would have a larger bearing on how I(BS) would handle, or even except an attempt at R, then knowing the reason(s).

The 1st one, a ONS, I may be able to attempt an R with. The 2nd and 3rd I wouldn't. I'd never be able to trust the 2nd one at work again and the 3rd outright lied to me and went ahead with the affair.

In the case of the 1st spouse, knowing the reasons wouldn't help me in my attempt at R. If she were to ever stray again, I'd file for D the next day. Again, the reason wouldn't matter. I gave a 2nd chance and she threw it away.

I think we make things too complicated. The bottom line is, if I cheat again, I get divorced. If I don't cheat again, I stayed married.

The choice is up to me regardless of the reasons.


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## Want2babettrme (May 17, 2013)

TimeHeals said:


> I am solely responsible for my choices, but somebody else is responsible too.
> 
> Double-talk.
> 
> ...


Mrs. M stated several times in this thread that she is not talking about the reasons for her affair here. 

She owns her sh!t and has demonstrated deep remorse and her BW has confirmed that in his own posts. I have respect for someone who took so may 2x4s but still kept coming back.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I understand why the OP and many others ponder how to figure out the deep underlying reasons that many of the FWS's cheated. It might make having a relaps of the cheating less likely and hopefully would help the attempt at R tohave a higher chance of succeeding.


As an xBS, I have no interest in "why".

If there is a "why", then she can talk to me about it.

Once she cheats, she's history. Not interest in "why" at that point.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Agreed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not say that there have to be problems to cheat. I said all marriages have problems which need to be dealt with at some stage. Then the cheater goes and cheats. But the problems don't go away. They are still there.

Also while I agree there don't need to be problems for a cheater to cheat - it could be just a personal trait/weakness - like succumbing to lust which the cheater needs to identify and deal with - it is possible that it could be some problems in the marriage also make the cheater more susceptible so they also need to be identified and dealt with - *if R is to be successful and long term.*

None of this matters if they are not attempting R.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> I did not say that there have to be problems to cheat.


I didn't say you did. I just threw that in there for discussion.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> As an xBS, I have no interest in "why".
> 
> If there is a "why", then she can talk to me about it.
> 
> Once she cheats, she's history. Not interest in "why" at that point.


How would you react if she had spoken repeatedly to you and you were non responsive and someone recognized her pain AND her naivety and targeted her?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I think it’s that ‘vulnerable to an affair’ thing… Sort of like ‘if we patch this marriage issue, then I might not consider cheating’. It doesn’t work like that, and consider yourself fortunate that it doesn’t.

You should know this… When the opportunity presented itself to cheat, it was about how you felt about the AP and that you wanted to. If you’d spent any time demonizing or putting down the AP, you might have found the advances insulting. But you didn’t because you were looking to a whole other relationship (your marriage) to help define how you might feel about this new relationship (your affair). It just doesn’t work like that…

That’s why the self-work is the most important. You shouldn’t be at a place where ‘should I’ is even a question or consideration. To allow yourself to feel or lust after another is a personal choice that has nothing to do with the marriage.

If you want to strengthen your marriage… Kudos! Just don’t let yourself believe it somehow fixes your issues or why you might say ‘yes’ to an outside relationship any more than believing a ring is magical and assures you protection from that happening to you. Mr. Mathias can just as easily say yes to some other woman regardless of how awesome the marriage is. He needs to look inward to say no and hopefully be a bit offended at the offer.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> How would you react if she had spoken repeatedly to you and you were non responsive and someone recognized her pain AND her naivety and targeted her?


For one I wouldn't have been non responsive. I'm just not that way.

Two, if I had and she cheated I still wouldn't blame myself, although I'd feel silly for being non responsive, I'd still dump her.

And 3, someone can target her, it would be her choice to give in. Although I have no respect for OM/OW and think they have responsibility in how other people are treated, I don't concern myself too much with the OP. It would be my partner that I need to deal with. I am not going to excuse their choice to cheat because someone else "targeted" them.

Regardless, in answer to your question in general, it doesn't excuse what the cheater did. Being "non responsive" and being a cheater? I think the role of POS lies with the latter.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't know your agenda. It's just seems that you are deliberately ignoring information that I am attempting to provide. I think, based on what you posted about narcissism, that we are actually in agreement. In my original post I emphasize the importance of identifying and understanding the personal flaws/weaknesses that enabled the cheater to choose cheating over a different option.
> 
> The piece that goes with that for me is understanding all factors in that decision. No one makes decisions in a vacuum. Each choice is the product of biology/inherent character, upbringing, past experiences, current circumstances, and predicted future results (although this last could be debated). When a WS is working to help reestablish trust, the emphasis is on actions. Those actions are often things like sharing passwords for transparency, accounting for time, eliminating toxic friends, changing work environment and so on.
> 
> ...


Mrs M

I notice you listed "inherent character" first in your list. May I ask - sincerely - what is your evaluation of your own inherent character? are you in therapy or IC?


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## Nostromo (Feb 8, 2014)

Not to make this political but the basic premise of the whole "unmet needs = adultery" argument that some subscribe to reminds me of "root cause theory" which for those who don't know is what people of a certain political persuasion use to explain away different societal issues. For example when a terrorist attack happens they might argue that the "root cause" of the terrorist attack is US foreign policy, the idea being that if our(America's) government was not over there in the first place then it would not of happened. Was the US wearing a short skirt at the time?

I don't subscribe to either theory, if it is being used to dole out blame to the victim/s of said attack or adultery respectively. However I do think there is wisdom in looking back on your own actions after the dust has settled not to accept blame but to better protect yourself in the future. The worthless brutes who ripped Reginald Denny out of his semi and beat him to a bloody pulp deserve 100% of the blame for their savagery. Having said that, it would of been a good idea for him to make sure his door was locked and he never should of stopped his truck in the middle of a city wide riot. What he did wasn't immoral and he incurs zero blame for the attack, however it wasn't a very smart course of action. Sometimes it's not about blame it's about having common sense. 

That's how I generally view adultery, the unfaithful spouse is entirely to blame for the affair and quite frankly they should be grateful for whatever crumbs their betrayed is willing to give them after what they've done to them especially early on in the reconciliation, and yet even saying that I think the betrayed spouse can usually look back at their own actions leading up to the infidelity and even their reactions after it has been revealed, not to share blame but simply to see how they can protect themselves and see the "signs" of adultery more clearly down the road in their current or even future relationships, so they will not allow themselves to be abused again. 

Unfortunately some people do use this very humble act of "forensics" on the part of their BS to shift blame to them, and that is actually a self defeating action on the part of the WS. As long as they blame their victim as being the "root cause" of their fall from grace they will never really grow as an individual and learn from their failures. They will continue to see themselves and their spouse the same exact way they did during their affair and the only real change that has occurred is that they no longer have the benefit of their BS being oblivious to who they truly are.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Mrs M
> 
> I notice you listed "inherent character" first in your list. May I ask - sincerely - what is your evaluation of your own inherent character? are you in therapy or IC?



I could have written that list in any order really, but it is generally accepted here, and I agree to a point, that the bulk of the cause of any affair lies within the cheater, which would primarily be biology/inherent character and upbringing (established and modeled patterns of behavoir that form the basis of one's ethics/morality/societal view from childhood).

This thread was never intended to be about me and my flaws. I don't believe that I have ever discussed the state of my marriage during the analysis of my affair.

I am in therapy. I have been doing phone coaching with Steve Harley of Marriage Builders for a little over a year, and I also saw an IC in person for the first year after the affair ended.

I believe my character is full of positives and negatives, and I am capable of recognizing the habits, attitudes, and emotions that feed into my decision making.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Nostromo said:


> Not to make this political but the basic premise of the whole "unmet needs = adultery" argument that some subscribe to reminds me of "root cause theory" which for those who don't know is what people of a certain political persuasion use to explain away different societal issues. For example when a terrorist attack happens they might argue that the "root cause" of the terrorist attack is US foreign policy, the idea being that if our(America's) government was not over there in the first place then it would not of happened. Was the US wearing a short skirt at the time?
> 
> I don't subscribe to either theory, if it is being used to dole out blame to the victim/s of said attack or adultery respectively. However I do think there is wisdom in looking back on your own actions after the dust has settled not to accept blame but to better protect yourself in the future. The worthless brutes who ripped Reginald Denny out of his semi and beat him to a bloody pulp deserve 100% of the blame for their savagery. Having said that, it would of been a good idea for him to make sure his door was locked and he never should of stopped his truck in the middle of a city wide riot. What he did wasn't immoral and he incurs zero blame for the attack, however it wasn't a very smart course of action. Sometimes it's not about blame it's about having common sense.
> 
> ...


So what would your opinion be on a BS going into reconciliation after infidelity has taken place without ever addressing unmet needs of the WS (even if they are not the reason for the infidelity) ?


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Growing and learning from the failure is key for me and the only reason I'm still in R. I feel like leaving most days, despite her best efforts, and despite our young son. It rips me apart each day I spend living in this limbo and I hope it improves one way or the other. 

I think the length my needs went unmet is almost as bad as the affair and almost as hard to get over. From my perspective it was a long and cruel process, and it was clear that she either didn't care to understand my needs or didn't care at all. I had every excuse to cheat, she gave me a pass and I gave it right back, then she cheated on me after I got hurt and gave up myself. Everyone was shocked to hear she was capable of fooling around with a married man - it isn't like her. The affair and all the baggage, for me, still wins out as the ultimate act of selfishness on her part.

Seeing her acknowledge things she has done wrong, character flaws, and her working earnestly to fix those things has truly impressed me. I think it has been liberating for her to clear her mind of all the clutter and focus on what's real. On my end, I am barely in this R right now. I'm not mean, but I'm detached, because I'm detached. It's not an act. I do my duties, I take care of our son, and sometimes I don't want to be near her even if she wants to do something nice for me.

Sometimes a BS can't fully appreciate the efforts made by a repentant WS, either because of detachment or defense mechanisms, but I imagine that would heal with time in a healthy reconciliation. I am now in the position of having what I've always wanted from her, but I can't appreciate it at this time, or maybe that ship has sailed for good.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I think if this is truly the case, reconciliation would be incredibly difficult. What protections could the WS offer the BS to show they will not give into that "need" again? Some substantial reflection would have to occur for the WS to understand WHY they felt like they "needed" that. Was it an ego boost, boredom, thrill of the chase? What within them allowed them to choose to focus their energies in that direction? IMO the "desire to get some strange" may be the "reason" for infidelity but it did not CAUSE them to choose to pursue that. Does that make sense or is it a meaningless distinction?


You are on the money. By knowing you can actually work on the issue.

The only protection is let Matt see the woman he fell in love with. Follow that up with letting him see the woman that fell in love with him.

You need to show him the future. By fixing the issues within the marriage you can help him along. I keep talking about your value. You need to be the person that is worth the risk,

Don't be down on yourself. Be the person he wants to be with.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Well look. No version of the sentiment of this thread title can move me off my strong feeling that addressing the "unmet needs" of the WS is a great way for the BS to linger in a state of humiliation indefinitely. The concept of "equivalence" is simply too near, too tempting for the WS to embrace when the BS agrees to go down that road. I.e. cheating becomes just one more 'sin' that one partner might inflict on the other. A very bad thing to do, along with poor communication, raising one's voice, inadequate affection, lack of emotional support etc. 

So, yes. It is indeed a dilemma....


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

(Hypothetical)

Feel horrible. I just knocked my wife down a flight of wooden stairs. The ambulance just left. I hope she's not hurt bad but I think she might be. 

One of the factors that went into me slugging her is my inability to control my anger and my lack of boundaries regarding my use of violence on others. I have to work on that, I know. But when she recovers and we start rebuilding our marriage we also need to address my unmet needs within the relationship. Tough balancing act.....

(end hypothetical)

Not a useful parallel?


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Acoa said:


> This...
> 
> I made that call after Dday1. Mrs ACOA is a wonderful loving person. To this day I believe she loves me and would tell me anything I want to hear if she thought it would save me from pain. But she is weak and can't stand rejection. She continually put herself in bad situations rather than end bad friendships. So in the end her promises are only empty words. Not because she doesn't want to honor them, but because she lacks the will to make the hard choices it takes to stick to them.
> 
> ...


Wow this shocks me. You must be talking about my stbx from personal experience. Uncanny. You've described her perfectly! Incredible.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> (Hypothetical)
> 
> Feel horrible. I just knocked my wife down a flight of wooden stairs. The ambulance just left. I hope she's not hurt bad but I think she might be.
> 
> ...


"I've neglected my wife for years chasing everything but her, leaving deep unseen abandonment wounds on top of the ones from her childhood, she tried to tell me, but I didnt listen because I couldnt control my lust for big boys toys driving us into bankrupcy, and I lusted after three of her friends and told her so calling them by name while we were intimate one night finally able to "finish" after six years of aorgasmia, wow she seems really upset, I don't feel horrible cause there is nothing wrong with me, she sure seems to be struggling... Hmmm wonder why, she'married to wonderful me, she cant be hurt that bad, look who she is married to. I know shes been with me 17 years and took care of my dying parents, but she can get over this, she's strong and I dont like counseling, there us nothing wrong with me, why should I go."

The world of abuse is broader than just physical for sure, and the same attitude can exist in the non cheating spouse. In my eyes my ex was a cheater. He stepped out on me in many ways. So when someone tries to put it all on the cheater, that is too simplified. The above statement doesnt even come close to describing the unbearable pain I experienced with my ex. So I can see how vulnerabilities can happen.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation*



nuclearnightmare said:


> Well look. No version of the sentiment of this thread title can move me off my strong feeling that addressing the "unmet needs" of the WS is a great way for the BS to linger in a state of humiliation indefinitely. The concept of "equivalence" is simply too near, too tempting for the WS to embrace when the BS agrees to go down that road. I.e. cheating becomes just one more 'sin' that one partner might inflict on the other. A very bad thing to do, along with poor communication, raising one's voice, inadequate affection, lack of emotional support etc.
> 
> So, yes. It is indeed a dilemma....


Doesn't that all depend on the circumstances in the marriage pre affair and how the BS sees their contribution to that dysfunction? Nobody is perfect. We all have issues. Shouldn't the BS address their issues as well, not necessarily to meet the unmet needs of the WS but to become a stronger more well rounded individual?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

bfree said:


> Doesn't that all depend on the circumstances in the marriage pre affair and how the BS sees their contribution to that dysfunction? Nobody is perfect. We all have issues. *Shouldn't the BS address their issues as well, not necessarily to meet the unmet needs of the WS but to become a stronger more well rounded individual?*


I did, which explains why I am now divorced from my WS. 

My issue was that I shut down. My H no longer "knew me" in the sense that my thoughts, opinions, intelligence, humor, (the essence of "me") was no longer available to him. He was living with a woman who went through the motions without personality. A "zombie".

Why was I like that? I didn't start off that way. He did marry the "real me". What killed my "spark" was his temper. He would fly into an instant rage over little things; like how I folded the socks, or a facial expression, or a joke I cracked that he didn't "get" and thought I was serious. If I challenged him, his anger would escalate to the point that he would start throwing things, punching walls, take it out on his sons, anything. The only thing that would stop him was for me to say nothing, let him vent it all out and finish.

And, of course, he was a narcissist. Everything revolved around him. So, along with his temper, I had to deal with his "needs" (nevermind my needs). 

I walked on eggshells for years. I could be "myself" at work, or socially with friends, but the minute he was included, my whole personality changed. Eggshells. Compliance. Or his ugly temper would reveal itself, even in public.

Then, he had the nerve to seek "attention" with other women, who would feed his ego and give him marital advice since my "spark" was long gone.

I divorced him. I am "me" now 24/7. I no longer walk on eggshells. I have dealt with my own "demons" and will never allow myself to be trapped like that again.

But I didn't cheat.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Sometimes the BS needs to lose weight if you get my meaning. Good for you getting out of that situation. You meet your own unmet needs.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> I did, which explains why I am now divorced from my WS.
> 
> My issue was that I shut down. My H no longer "knew me" in the sense that my thoughts, opinions, intelligence, humor, (the essence of "me") was no longer available to him. He was living with a woman who went through the motions without personality. A "zombie".
> 
> ...



Yes, you chose the honourable option. 


There is also always the courageous, strength of character option, and BEFORE the choice to cheat is made, to demand of the spouse that unless serious efforts are undertaken to improve the "causative factors", then the marriage is over.

Cheating, wether the causative factors are mild or severe, is a cowardly act, because it's done in secret behind closed doors. One needs no courage or strength of character to cheat. It's so easy to slink away to a lover or "friend" (lol) and lie, cheat and steal.

Once cheating has occurred, the BS has to deal with the pain of betrayal, the knowledge that the their WS is a coward, a liar and a thief, AND do all of the work involved in fixing their share of the 50% of the failing marriage.

That's an AWFUL lot of pain and work involved for the BS.
Whatever heavy lifting the WS has to do afterwards, it is rarely, if ever, going to be just compensation enough for the BS over that ultimate supreme betrayal and cowardice. 

I am in a relatively good R, he is working very hard, (we actually both are) but the betrayal of infidelity has left scars that will remain scars forever. I do still love him though.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Deleted


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

See.... over simplified...

Great share survivorwife...


There are just so many complexities


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> See.... over simplified...
> 
> Great share survivorwife...
> 
> ...


Thank you. 

I never asked him why he cheated. I didn't want to hear from him the list of my "faults" (aka "blame shifting) since I was already emotionally undone by his betrayal. I got a sense that he would have *loved* for me to ask, so he could recite all the ways I could improve the marriage so that he would not be tempted to cheat again. As a narcissist, I knew him well enough to know that it was I who he expected to "fix the marriage" and he would go along - so long as *his needs* were met.

Well, I didn't play that game with him. To this day, his version of events is that yes, he was wrong, HOWEVER instead of "fixing the marriage" (going to counseling etc.) I left him! And "took him to cleaners in divorce court" and left him a broken (and broke) man. 

Ain't I a beotch! :rofl:


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> I did, which explains why I am now divorced from my WS.
> 
> My issue was that I shut down. My H no longer "knew me" in the sense that my thoughts, opinions, intelligence, humor, (the essence of "me") was no longer available to him. He was living with a woman who went through the motions without personality. A "zombie".
> 
> ...


Although the disorder was different in my stbx I can relate to that perfectly, exactly the same in some points especially the walking on eggshells

Thinking as I do now (largely down actually to this community on here!) I'd love to have that time again and treat her how I now know I should have. 

We'd have been finished 7 /8 years ago

Annoying that


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

I will say this about the whole unmet needs theory - my ex when she embarked on the affair treated me like crap and went on and on about how I was this and did that and the relationship was over for years and recanted this over and over again to our 2 boys. We are not reconciling BTW. Finally, this year (after 30 months, yes 30 months) she had the courage and fortitude to say to our youngest son "my fooling around on your father had nothing to do with him, it was something within me." 

FINALLY the truth even though it took 30 months - it will not help much and perhaps she can make up to our boys what she robbed them of - but at least she recognizes the affair was on her. Some people on this site fail to recognize that fact.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

bfree said:


> Shouldn't the BS address their issues as well, not necessarily to meet the unmet needs of the WS but to become a stronger more well rounded individual?


Absolutely. But, as you pretty much indicated, not to cave into some kind of emotional extortion out of fear the WS would cheat again. If you have to break your back and walk on eggshells because the WS can use any excuse again in the future to cheat, then that is not a life. 

One shouldn't work on their issues simply out of fear their WS will stray again.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

vellocet said:


> Absolutely. But, as you pretty much indicated, not to cave into some kind of emotional extortion out of fear the WS would cheat again. If you have to break your back and walk on eggshells because the WS can use any excuse again in the future to cheat, then that is not a life.
> 
> One shouldn't work on their issues simply out of fear their WS will stray again.


Correct.. they should choose to work on themselves so that they are bringing their best selves to their #1 relationship in priority independent of the emotional state of the spouse. Emotional blackmail does not keep a relationship together.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

A lot of the commentary that I am reading here is about situations where the BS did not want to reconcile.

I believe the original thread was about dealing with unmet needs in a relationship where the BS has decided to reconcile and wants a marriage that will work.

So putting blame shifting etc aside, when should a couple get round to addressing problems that existed in the marriage prior to the infidelity DURING the R process ?

Again, this is only about couples that have made a firm decision to reconcile.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> A lot of the commentary that I am reading here is about situations where the BS did not want to reconcile.
> 
> I believe the original thread was about dealing with unmet needs in a relationship where the BS has decided to reconcile and wants a marriage that will work.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume that the BS did not *want* to R? After being together almost 30 years, what makes you think that "happily ever after" was not an option?

You said "couple". I agree. The "couple" needs to work together. But what I think you fail to recognize is that, although many BS *do* want to reconcile, the failure and/or crisis in the marriage is not due to the actions of the BS in the first place. So it kind of sounds like you a putting a burden of sacrifice (as in one's self-esteem) on the BS, who is already shattered emotionally by the betrayal.

My best answer would be when the BS is ready. And if and when that happens, with the full understanding and support of the WS. Anything less than that could be construed as rug sweeping.

And since I am now divorced, I can gracefully bow out of the "firm decision to reconcile" group (although, had my Ex shown any remorse and a willingness to do the heavy lifting, he might not be an "Ex")


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

No the original thread was about the "unmet needs" of the WS - thus the direction of the thread. How can one put blameshifting aside when that was and is the major tool of having an affair? By putting the affair aside is BLAMESHIFTING. One cannot just say "well let's for hypothetical reasons assume I did not cheat (on a infidelity thread on a marriage website) and look at the problems in the marriage. That is the very definition of blameshifting and frankly why most WS cheated to begin with. Sorry not buying into the premise you proposed.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> And since I am now divorced, I can gracefully bow out of the "firm decision to reconcile" group (although, had my Ex shown any remorse and a willingness to do the heavy lifting, he might not be an "Ex")


Your's too? Yeah, mine want's to R, but needs to "fix" herself first, so we can't bring up any of the bad stuff she did because it puts her in a dark place that jeopordizes her recovery.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

manfromlamancha said:


> So putting blame shifting etc aside, when should a couple get round to addressing problems that existed in the marriage prior to the infidelity DURING the R process ?


Whenever the BS feels comfortable doing so and has dealt adequately with their feelings of what their WS did.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

vellocet said:


> Whenever the BS feels comfortable doing so and has dealt adequately with their feelings of what their WS did.


I agree to a great extent. In the early stages the BS is in shock (hell I know I was!) and it's almost impossible to take a good hard honest look at yourself and realistically see what you might need to fix and more importantly formulate a plan of action to fix it. I can't even fathom what kind of a timeline this might be but at some point, for his/her own good, the BS must address their own issues, not for their WS but for themselves. If the issues addressed happen to coincide with what the WS would want then so be it but they should not be the focus of the changes.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Why do you assume that the BS did not *want* to R? After being together almost 30 years, what makes you think that "happily ever after" was not an option?
> 
> You said "couple". I agree. The "couple" needs to work together. But what I think you fail to recognize is that, although many BS *do* want to reconcile, the failure and/or crisis in the marriage is not due to the actions of the BS in the first place. So it kind of sounds like you a putting a burden of sacrifice (as in one's self-esteem) on the BS, who is already shattered emotionally by the betrayal.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but lets say that the WS is fully remorseful, owns the wrongdoing, and is doing what we call the heavy lifting in the recovery. And lets say the BS, like many in R here, is being given the time to heal and get to a less painful place down the line. Maybe years down the line. All that I am asking is at some stage, in the future, the existing problems in that marriage have to be looked at for a longer term healthy relationship. Not just the problems with the WS but also those with the BS. Or is the WS supposed to be a punching bag forever and a day while what was a rotten relationship to start with, never gets fixed.

What I am reading here is tales of either BS's who never made it to reconciliation (and normally for good reason too) OR are in some sort of reconciliation but in no position to look at marital problems while the pain of the infidelity is still fresh.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

I think lamancha its also about one timer or serial cheats 

I must have wanted to reconcile if I got as far as a fourth dday mustn't I? 

I think most of us do. 

It would indeed be fascinating to know more precisely how many cheats chose to because they felt their needs were unmet genuinely or they just wanted it that way selfish etc

I have to say the term "unmet needs" I find so fking irritating when I think of the context it is used here in infidelity. It always sounds like a three yr old wailing that they can't have this or that piece of chocolate, there's something totally juvenile about the whole sound of the phrase to me 

uuuurgh!


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I think lamancha its also about one timer or serial cheats
> 
> I must have wanted to reconcile if I got as far as a fourth dday mustn't I?
> 
> ...


I totally agree! The label is pathetic. They are only unmet because the WS ALLOWED them to be unmet. The WS didn't inform the BS that they were feeling neglected or whatever it was they chose to destroy another human beings' life over by throwing a bomb into it.

If they had, they wouldn't have been unmet would they? 

No it's down to the WS no matter which way it's looked at.
People need to COMMUNICATE. 




manfromlamancha said:


> What I am reading here is tales of either BS's who never made it to reconciliation (and normally for good reason too) OR are in some sort of reconciliation but in no position to look at marital problems while the pain of the infidelity is still fresh.


No. I'm looking and working hard at the part I played in the marriage for sure, but not because I need too for HIS sake. I'm doing it because I want a healthy fulfilling relationship. 

The by-product of that is that he gets a benefit too which I'm happy about because he his the the person that I want to share that healthy relationship with.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Communication and honesty are key. She needs to be honest on her feelings. If that was done before it may have been different

Blame shifting can only happen if the BS allows it. Things need to be addressed.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I totally agree! The label is pathetic. They are only unmet because the WS ALLOWED them to be unmet. The WS didn't inform the BS that they were feeling neglected or whatever it was they chose to destroy another human beings' life over by throwing a bomb into it.
> 
> *If they had, they wouldn't have been unmet would they? *
> 
> ...



I agree that communication is key. However, your blanket statement above is not true. I agree that it is OFTEN true - but not every WS fails to communicate or blame shifts, and not every BS has worked with their spouse pre-affair to act on communicated issues.

Every case has its own nuances, despite many similarities on the surface.


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I agree that communication is key. However, your blanket statement above is not true. I agree that it is OFTEN true - but not every WS fails to communicate or blame shifts, and not every BS has worked with their spouse pre-affair to act on communicated issues.
> 
> Every case has its own nuances, despite many similarities on the surface.


I believe my blanket statement *IS *true and I'll tell you why. 

The "unmet needs" statement which I dislike so much because it is pontificated on long and hard by some WS both here and elsewhere is a lie. 

How can they be unmet by the BS when the spouse didn't know about them in the first place? 

If they did know, because the WS told them they were not meeting their needs before the affair, and the BS then chose to ignore them, it is STILL down to the WS because they then did not say to the BS, "Hey, you are still not meeting my needs, I recognise that you cannot and will not meet them, therefore I am going to leave the marriage and find someone who WILL meet my needs".

They then should have done precisely that and instead of becoming a liar, a cheat, and a thief, they could have maintained their marital fidelity, integrity and honour and walked away to get their needs met elsewhere. 

That they didn't do that and just slunk away like a thief in the night is down to them entirely.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I've been reading a lot of discussion lately in various threads, some of it on-topic and some of it sort of threadjacking when either a WS or BS speaks about the state of their marriage prior to the affair.
> 
> First, let me say that I am a WS and I have been working to help my BH heal and build a new relationship together for the last 18 months. Honestly, I have become mostly a lurker here, but for some reason, I felt like I needed to think and articulate some ideas on this topic.
> 
> ...


MM, the problem , of course, isn't the marital problems, in and of themselves, but the choice that the WS made, in response to those problems. One of the hardest questions for a WS to answer, is WHY they thought that infidelity was a viable response to conflicts in the marriage? In almost every single case, there are many other , more positive methods of coping with problems or "unmet needs".
Indeed, the cheater deliberately chose the single most destructive response to any marital question. An example would be if a person had a hang-nail and chose amputation of the whole hand, as the solution.
UNmet needs and other marital problems are simply excuses/explanations (some valid and some not) requiring a response. Boundaries, reparations, and reconciliation are bandaids to treat the symptoms. The KEY QUESTION is, and has always been, WHY, WHY WHY, cheating was chosen as the response, by the WS. If you can answer that question to your own and your BS's satisfaction, you are a long way to full recovery.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> MM, the problem , of course, isn't the marital problems, in and of themselves, but the choice that the WS made, in response to those problems. One of the hardest questions for a WS to answer, is WHY they thought that infidelity was a viable response to conflicts in the marriage? In almost every single case, there are many other , more positive methods of coping with problems or "unmet needs".
> Indeed, the cheater deliberately chose the single most destructive response to any marital question. An example would be if a person had a hang-nail and chose amputation of the whole hand, as the solution.
> UNmet needs and other marital problems are simply excuses/explanations (some valid and some not) requiring a response. Boundaries, reparations, and reconciliation are bandaids to treat the symptoms. The KEY QUESTION is, and has always been, WHY, WHY WHY, cheating was chosen as the response, by the WS. If you can answer that question to your own and your BS's satisfaction, you are a long way to full recovery.



Agreed. It's the bolded portion in my OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> I believe my blanket statement *IS *true and I'll tell you why.
> 
> The "unmet needs" statement which I dislike so much because it is pontificated on long and hard by some WS both here and elsewhere is a lie.
> 
> ...


You're not actually disagreeing with me. You state it IS possible for a WS to communicate their needs pre-affair and for a BS to not respond. What you don't like, AND I AGREE WITH YOU, is what happens after that point. But the fact that the WS cheated does not negate the original marital issues, IF a couple is in reconciliation. Once the BS is healing from the infidelity and chooses to be an active partner in the marriage again, AND the WS has articulated and demonstrated that they know the fundamental inherent reason why they chose to cheat and are dedicated to actively preventing that, THEN to create a stronger new relationship all prior marital weaknesses need to be addressed by both the WS and BS, and may require effort and change or compromise by either partner or both.

This is not an early reconciliation stage. It's not blameshifting. It's acknowledging that they want to improve and create a marriage where both partners are happy and fulfilled and eliminating past habits and weaknesses is part of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

All this talk of unmet needs but there are two points that should be mentioned that haven't bee as far as I can see. People's needs change as they age and grow. What once was extremely important to me may now be less important and some other need may be on the top of my list. The fact that people change is very relevant because what someone' might have needed when they married might have also changed during the course of the marriage. What happens if the spouse is simply not able to meet or _sufficiently_ meet these new needs? The other point I'd like to make is that there is a huge difference between a *NEED* and a *WANT*. From what I can see many people do not fully comprehend the difference and that in and of itself has lead to many relationship downfalls. Bear in mind that none of this excuses or explains infidelity but it is food for thought.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> All this talk of unmet needs but there are two points that should be mentioned that haven't bee as far as I can see. People's needs change as they age and grow. What once was extremely important to me may now be less important and some other need may be on the top of my list. The fact that people change is very relevant because what someone' might have needed when they married might have also changed during the course of the marriage. What happens if the spouse is simply not able to meet or _sufficiently_ meet these new needs? The other point I'd like to make is that there is a huge difference between a *NEED* and a *WANT*. From what I can see many people do not fully comprehend the difference and that in and of itself has lead to many relationship downfalls. Bear in mind that none of this excuses or explains infidelity but it is food for thought.


Good points bfree especially the 'want' and the 'need'

People grow, people evolve.

Again from my own experience we had this 'chat' within months of falling in love with each 17 years ago.

"If we both evolve both change and that results in not being in love or wanting something/ someone different - *we have to finish not cheat*" 

That's what we agreed back then, whilst looking into each others eyes determined the last thing we would want is to hurt the other in any way 


..........Guess what


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I have to say the term "unmet needs" I find so fking irritating when I think of the context it is used here in infidelity. It always sounds like a three yr old wailing that they can't have this or that piece of chocolate, there's something totally juvenile about the whole sound of the phrase to me
> 
> uuuurgh!


I believe Mrs_Mathias put this phrase in quotes in her thread title to indicate that she does not consider it sufficient to explain a WS reasons for cheating, as she discerned in several of the threads she was reading. Her point here is to look deeper into the personal qualities and characteristics of the WS him/herself. I'd read the thread title as "Evaluating *Alleged or So-Called* 'Unmet Needs' Etc. When Working on Reconciliation."


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Philat said:


> I believe Mrs_Mathias put this phrase in quotes in her thread title to indicate that she does not consider it sufficient to explain a WS reasons for cheating, as she discerned in several of the threads she was reading. Her point here is to look deeper into the personal qualities and characteristics of the WS him/herself. I'd read the thread title as "Evaluating *Alleged or So-Called* 'Unmet Needs' Etc. When Working on Reconciliation."


Yes, precisely. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

bfree said:


> All this talk of unmet needs but there are two points that should be mentioned that haven't bee as far as I can see. People's needs change as they age and grow. What once was extremely important to me may now be less important and some other need may be on the top of my list. The fact that people change is very relevant because what someone' might have needed when they married might have also changed during the course of the marriage. What happens if the spouse is simply not able to meet or _sufficiently_ meet these new needs? The other point I'd like to make is that there is a huge difference between a *NEED* and a *WANT*. From what I can see many people do not fully comprehend the difference and that in and of itself has lead to many relationship downfalls. Bear in mind that none of this excuses or explains infidelity but it is food for thought.


Good point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

nuclearnightmare said:


> IMO the BS has to make every effort to make an honest judgement, and be honest with themselves, on whether their WS is a person worthy of their trust and love, despite their cheating.....or instead is a person so skilled at lying and manipulation that the BS has so far been blind to just how enormous the character deficit of the WS is.......


As a BS, I've never really view my ill attempted R in eyes as such, as it seems so entitled in thought,((nothing personal on poster)) rather than I have always looked at the betrayal itself. 

The hardest I find, the 3 parts of the WW ;

1- the person who he/she really is,((the one we fell in love w and really know inside if he's a good soul or not)) 

2-the assailant, ((betrayal)) 

3- repenter((forgiveness))

I agree w MM with what she writes, where is this not an early stage in recovery, to what she is talking about, as I am 3+ out and am only myself getting close to understanding this concept.

Imho, R is a life changing event for the BS more so than the WW, as because the WW was the one in control of the journey changing the direction of the BS's life. That in it's self has to be dealt with as well as all the other "crap" the WW unexpectedly put us in.

Throughout R there has been a lot of lessons learned on both sides that only time, and distance will allow to be learned. Not all good, and some pointing towards if even R is working, or want to be working... Questions start to surface, honest get "more real" and if couples allow, communication gets better, as nothing really gets sugar coated anymore, and I think that is then when the BS can start to address where "they went wrong," in the relationship that did not meet the needs in the relationship for BOTH of them. 

There is a lot of wounded soul and heart to be healed, and that is what WW's dont get,.. they have no real idea what that feels like. Nobody does, ... until you go through it yourself. 

~sammy


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Wow! I admit I havent read every post here but have skimmed through them.
If I have got the wrong end of the stick here please forgive me.

This thread is headed "Re: Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation"

I don't think any 'normal' married person would have an affair IF their needs were being met in the confines of the marriage.

Therefore, IMO, if a spouse 'wanders' it is because his/her spouse is not meeting their needs. The whole blame cannot be placed at the feet of the adulteror.

If needs are not being met and the couple talk about it and discuss it yet the spouse is not prepared to meet, or atleast try to compromise in meeting those needs they shouldn't be surprised if the other gets those needs met elsewhere.

For example; my wife enjoys receiving oral sex but point blank refuses to reciprocate on me. She thinks '$ucking c0ck' is simply disgusting and that I am a pervert for wanting it.
She knows how much it would mean to me if she did it - even if I wore a condom....'over my dead body'.
She also thinks that sex once a month is enough...'why should I do something I have no interest in?'...
Because of her attitude towards my 'needs', her selfishness etc I have now lost ALL sexual interest in her. 

We have done the MC bit - she stopped going when the importance of sex came up.

So...if I ended up having an affair and getting my needs met elsewhere why should I be the ogre and carry all the blame?

It takes two to make a marriage work...you have to work at it TOGETHER, make compromises, meet in the middle, do things that you might not like doing but you do them for the ejoyment of your spouse and the good of the marriage in general.

Reconciliation ONLY works if BOTH couples accept and respect the others needs and are prepared to meet them.

We are all human. We are not perfect. 

I have not had sex with my wife in over two years....and it doesnt bother her in the slightest.
If a woman started paying me some interest etc....would I be strong?...I don't know. I am very thirsty and my wife gives me nothing...if another woman offered me even water would I take it....???


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

If you were to have an affair why should the blame be entirely on you? Because you have a choice. You can divorce, you can separate, you have choices.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Philat said:


> I believe Mrs_Mathias put this phrase in quotes in her thread title to indicate that she does not consider it sufficient to explain a WS reasons for cheating, as she discerned in several of the threads she was reading. Her point here is to look deeper into the personal qualities and characteristics of the WS him/herself. I'd read the thread title as "Evaluating *Alleged or So-Called* 'Unmet Needs' Etc. When Working on Reconciliation."


I know 

I was just commenting on the phrase itself independent of that 

....no attack on anyone


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

Headspin said:


> I know
> 
> I was just commenting on the phrase itself independent of that
> 
> ....no attack on anyone


Got it.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

askari said:


> Wow! I admit I havent read every post here but have skimmed through them.
> If I have got the wrong end of the stick here please forgive me.
> 
> This thread is headed "Re: Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation"
> ...


You're missing it ...the point. That's the problem. You've right there just given yourself the _reason_ to cheat. BUT you don't have that right. You have the right to talk about it, to discuss it, to spend yet another fruitless night into the early hours trying to understand each other, to go to counseling together to find a way through .....................and if that doesn't work eventually sadly

*YOU LEAVE* 


I'll say that again 


*YOU LEAVE*

What you do NOT do is give yourself the 'punishment tool' the 'big stick' to say "right you wont give me what I want so I'll cheat and rip your life to fking pieces" 

THIS is exactly what I meant by the unsavouriness of the term "unmet needs" It gives an element of toys out of pram about it


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

We are each responsible for our own needs. But once in a relationship you have to be considerate of the needs of your partner. 

So, if you need frequent sex, and your partner could take it or leave it. Then a choice has to be made in order for that relationship to be fulfilling. Either the LD partner puts out more often, not because they enjoy it, but because they enjoy pleasing their partner. Or the HD parter denies themselves and cherishes the times they do get sex. Or they meet in the middle (probably the healthest choice). Baring agreement, then each has to make a choice if that relationship has a future. Is this a need or a want. If it's a need, and agreement can't be reached, then the relationship should end. If it's a want, the each will have to accept something less than fulfilling in their relationship and make sure they are aware of the danger it creates and be on guard to protect against it. I use sex as an example here, but it could be anything, attention, help with parenting or housework, oreo cookies or whatever. 

I've also heard the "I can't leave argument". Either for the kids, or because of money or because she makes great meat loaf and I love meat loaf or whatever. Yes, you can end the relationship and you should. It may be ugly, it may hurt and you will change your standard of living. But it's the right thing to do. By staying, and having affairs to provide that "need/want" you are choosing something selfish that is going to devistate your partner. 

I think cheaters realize this in hindsight, but don't see it coming. They rationalize in little pieces and start down the "just friends" path and slowly escalate until the point of no return. It's the frog in the pot analogy. The temp goes up slow and they don't realize they are being cooked until it's too late. 

Because of this, I think the whole "unmet needs" thing needs to take a back seat to the choice of what will the cheater do if the spouse is not capable of meeting those needs. Because let's face it, poo happens. At some point, needs are not going to be met. Will the cheater pull out their "unmet needs" card and restart the affair? That possibility has to be firmly off the table. The only proper response is no, they will ask for what they want and file for divorce if they don't get it. If what they 'want' isn't worth filing for divorce over, it's not worth cheating for either. Besides, aren't we all responsible for our own needs? 

I think cheating and divorce carry the same amount of pain. However, the betrayed partner carries most (if not all) of the pain of an affair. The partners share the pain in a divorce. Add to the fact that many affairs end in divorce, the pain to the betrayed is multiplied. This is why if you need a different partner to meet your needs. Leave the one you are with. If you want one partner to meet some needs, and a different one to meet others. Then you are a selfish person and not marriage material. Do everyone a favor, divorce and remain single.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're not actually disagreeing with me. You state it IS possible for a WS to communicate their needs pre-affair and for a BS to not respond. What you don't like, AND I AGREE WITH YOU, is what happens after that point. But the fact that the WS cheated does not negate the original marital issues, IF a couple is in reconciliation. Once the BS is healing from the infidelity and chooses to be an active partner in the marriage again, AND the WS has articulated and demonstrated that they know the fundamental inherent reason why they chose to cheat and are dedicated to actively preventing that, THEN to create a stronger new relationship all prior marital weaknesses need to be addressed by both the WS and BS, and may require effort and change or compromise by either partner or both.
> 
> This is not an early reconciliation stage. It's not blameshifting. It's acknowledging that they want to improve and create a marriage where both partners are happy and fulfilled and eliminating past habits and weaknesses is part of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a VERY slippery slope, MM. And from past experience, something that is rarely accomplished. On TAM, I can think of very, very few couples who can negotiate both reconciliation and pre-affair marital problems simultaneously. And, yes, of course it is to some extent, blame shifting.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> This is a VERY slippery slope, MM. And from past experience, something that is rarely accomplished. On TAM, I can think of very, very few couples who can negotiate both reconciliation and pre-affair marital problems simultaneously. And, yes, of course it is to some extent, blame shifting.


I don't think it's blame shifting to acknowledge relationship issues, unless someone is saying that is "why" they cheated. It is possible (and necessary) to have a why that is independent of outside circumstance. But that doesn't mean that for a healthy, happy future relationship circumstances couldn't be improved from their previous existence.

And again, I don't think this is something that can be tackled until the lion's share of the work repairing the infidelity is done successfully. But I also don't consider a relationship fully "reconciled" until both partners feel that it is mutually satisfying and enjoyable, and that encompasses a lot more than healing from infidelity.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

An analogy: Your child needs a medical procedure. You do not have the money for it. You steal the and are caught. You make full restitution, admit to the theft and agree to punishment. The problem is, however, that the pre-theft medical problem still exists, so you ask the person from whom you stole, to give you the money. How many people think this is a realistic concept?
Once you have chosen to cheat, you have pretty much automatically abandoned your right to complain about pre-affair marital issues, because you chose to go outside of the marriage for your solution. The marriage, as it was, has ceased to exist. This is one of the reasons I chose divorce.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think it's blame shifting to acknowledge relationship issues, unless someone is saying that is "why" they cheated. It is possible (and necessary) to have a why that is independent of outside circumstance. But that doesn't mean that for a healthy, happy future relationship circumstances couldn't be improved from their previous existence.
> 
> And again, I don't think this is something that can be tackled until the lion's share of the work repairing the infidelity is done successfully. But I also don't consider a relationship fully "reconciled" until both partners feel that it is mutually satisfying and enjoyable, and that encompasses a lot more than healing from infidelity.


Sorry, but I think you are wrong. It is not blameshifting to attempt to solve marital issues. People do it all of the time. It, however, IS blameshifting, to use pre-affair conditions as an emotional trump card to control the progress of reconciliation. Which , in a way, I think you are attempting to do. You clearly are not satisfied with the progress of your attempt at reconciliation , and are using "unmet needs" to explain away your impatience. This is something you really need to work on, because this frustration on your part has come up for discussion before, has it not?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation*



Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think it's blame shifting to acknowledge relationship issues, unless someone is saying that is "why" they cheated. It is possible (and necessary) to have a why that is independent of outside circumstance. But that doesn't mean that for a healthy, happy future relationship circumstances couldn't be improved from their previous existence.
> 
> And again, I don't think this is something that can be tackled until the lion's share of the work repairing the infidelity is done successfully. But I also don't consider a relationship fully "reconciled" until both partners feel that it is mutually satisfying and enjoyable, and that encompasses a lot more than healing from infidelity.


I understand where you're coming from but I would suggest that repairing infidelity is never compete and I would hesitate to venture as to when the lion's share has been done. Frankly I'm not necessarily sure that the lion's share is really ever done. I would surmise that if the BS does decide to address the pre affair martial issues it is really another huge gift to the WS and should be appreciated as such.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, but I think you are wrong. It is not blameshifting to attempt to solve marital issues. People do it all of the time. It, however, IS blameshifting, to use pre-affair conditions as an emotional trump card to control the progress of reconciliation. Which , in a way, I think you are attempting to do. You clearly are not satisfied with the progress of your attempt at reconciliation , and are using "unmet needs" to explain away your impatience. This is something you really need to work on, because this frustration on your part has come up for discussion before, has it not?



As I mentioned in previous posts and when I began this thread - it is NOT about ME and my reconciliation. There have been several threads lately where either a BS or WS discusses the state of their marriage pre-affair and are BOTH lambasted for doing so, as if it is inappropriate for them to want to work on that IN ADDITION to the infidelity.

I thought I could contribute to the discussion in a more hypothetical manner, but that is clearly not possible.

To state that I am unhappy with the progress of my reconciliation based on my contributions to this thread is completely baseless. And again, I reiterate, to speak of MY reconciliation and MY affair, I have NEVER ONCE even discussed any marital conditions prior to my affair. It is not relevant to MY affair.

I guess I have attempted to articulate what I can on this subject, regardless of the level of comprehension by others.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mrs M, as a follow up. As you said you may never be the person you thought you were or want to be but you still need to strive toward that goal. You need to think of the affair in the same way. The healing from the affair will most likely never be complete. The marriage is just too different after such a betrayal. But that doesn't mean you don't strive to get as close to perfect as can be achieved. Shoot for the moon. You may not make it but you still might touch the sky.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> As I mentioned in previous posts and when I began this thread - it is NOT about ME and my reconciliation. There have been several threads lately where either a BS or WS discusses the state of their marriage pre-affair and are BOTH lambasted for doing so, as if it is inappropriate for them to want to work on that IN ADDITION to the infidelity.
> 
> I thought I could contribute to the discussion in a more hypothetical manner, but that is clearly not possible.
> 
> ...


I think that other posters comprehend better than you think.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> I understand where you're coming from but I would suggest that repairing infidelity is never compete and I would hesitate to venture as to when the lion's share has been done. Frankly I'm not necessarily sure that the lion's share is really ever done. I would surmise that if the BS does decide to address the pre affair martial issues it is really another huge gift to the WS and should be appreciated as such.


This is very true. I have found that in those marriages we see here on TAM, where reconciliation and pre-affair marital issues are being addressed simultaneously, it is usually through the willingness and acceptance of the BS to do so, and should be profoundly appreciated by the WS, when it occurs.
For the WS to attempt to place pre-affair issues on the table during reconciliation,, can very easily ( and probably will) be misinterpreted by the BS.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I will tell you this: when my ex wife suddenly cut off all affection, all love, all respect, all sex, went 100% cold on me... and then just up and left without a single explanation for ANY of it...

I would have done ANYTHING to understand why.

Getting to a place where I stopped trying to understand why and started focusing on what I can do took me months.

Months that I can never have back, and added trauma and abandonment/betrayal scars that I'm still trying to get over more than a decade later.

All because she didn't have the ovaries to tell me that she was screwing someone else, and why.

Why would've helped. Even if we couldn't get back together, why would've helped.

And if I were ever to try to reconcile after my wife had an affair, I'd NEED to know and WORK on what I did that facilitated or aided or drove her to the affair... both to heal the marriage AND to help me feel safer.

Either way, for me, this stuff would all have to come out.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

I think the whole concept of needs has been so overused, it became a cliche to justify about everything. Very much like 'emotionally abusive' so overused in courts. Like 'my H didn't upgrade my car this year, because money were tight - he's emotional abuser'.

Wrt needs: 2 points. 1st 'need' is not an entitlement, there is a big different between 'need' and 'want'. Many WS's here had a good marriage, there needs were met, it is 'wants' that sent them astray - want to be excited, want extra attention, etc. Marriage is basically prioritising family needs over your 'cravings'

2nd, OK since when any unmet need justifies lying? In your case - you can D your wife and have any sort of sex you want. But coming home pretending that nothing happens and its 'marriage is usual'? Sorry, no sympathy here.




askari said:


> I don't think any 'normal' married person would have an affair IF their needs were being met in the confines of the marriage.
> 
> Therefore, IMO, if a spouse 'wanders' it is because his/her spouse is not meeting their needs. The whole blame cannot be placed at the feet of the adulteror.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I guess I have attempted to articulate what I can on this subject, regardless of the level of comprehension by others.


It isn't just about "comprehension" it is also about inference. I get your question, but you layered it in a way, where it can be taken completely different from what you expected. You used a quote from another person, or idea, then related it to your situation. This is why some posters focused on you because they inferred, it was you because you made yourself an example.



> As I mentioned in previous posts and when I began this thread - it is NOT about ME and my reconciliation.


Unfortunately, it is going to appear to some posters you are avoiding your situation.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

askari said:


> I don't think any 'normal' married person would have an affair IF their needs were being met in the confines of the marriage.


I don't think that's realistic.

Any "normal" person can repeatedly put themselves in a situation where they'd be tempted and eventually succumb.

Any "normal" person can get in a fight with their spouse, get loaded, hit on by some extremely attractive member of the opposite sex, and give in.

Any number of things can happen, quite accidentally.

I would say that more "accidental" affairs/ONS happen by women with the men intending to have the affair, but that's my opinion, I have nothing but anecdotal data to back that up.

Hell, I've been in the down and outs and had women just pick up on the scent of my marital unhappiness and start to work on me.

Stuff happens. I truly believe people can make mistakes. Human beings aren't naturally monogamous. At BEST, we're OK at SERIAL monogamy.

And people cheat for all kinds of reasons.


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## bigtone128 (May 1, 2012)

marduk said:


> All because she didn't have the ovaries to tell me that she was screwing someone else, and why.
> 
> Why would've helped. Even if we couldn't get back together, why would've helped.
> 
> ...


The why doesn't matter marduk and I will tell you why..because the justification for the affair will be a lie....truth is nothing justifies an affair other than a broken person saying they were broken - and the probability of a broken person doing that is extremely low....so do not hold your breath.

I will say it for you..she cheated on you because she was a broken person...nuff said!


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

There are many men AND women who stay in sexless marriages purely for the sake of the children.
The children mean more to them than the state of their marriage.

I also fall into that category. I could not survive without my children being a full and regular part of my life.

Leave. Leave. Leave. If only life were that simple. 

Not everyones life is 'black' and 'white' with no grey. These are the people who would throw a penniless and homeless person into jail for stealing a loaf of bread because they were hungry.
Hey - its stealing. Tough.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

askari said:


> There ar......
> 
> Leave. Leave. Leave. If only life were that simple.
> .....



The ultimate truth is (in 95% of cases), that life actually IS that simple


............but it's far easier to stay in a nice comfortable place .........and eat cake


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're not actually disagreeing with me. You state it IS possible for a WS to communicate their needs pre-affair and for a BS to not respond. What you don't like, AND I AGREE WITH YOU, is what happens after that point. *But the fact that the WS cheated does not negate the original marital issues, IF a couple is in reconciliation.* Once the BS is healing from the infidelity and chooses to be an active partner in the marriage again, AND the WS has articulated and demonstrated that they know the fundamental inherent reason why they chose to cheat and are dedicated to actively preventing that, THEN to create a stronger new relationship all prior marital weaknesses need to be addressed by both the WS and BS, and may require effort and change or compromise by either partner or both.
> 
> This is not an early reconciliation stage. It's not blameshifting. It's acknowledging that they want to improve and create a marriage where both partners are happy and fulfilled and eliminating past habits and weaknesses is part of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to adults having the ability to communicate their needs pre-affair, of course they can. 


> However, your blanket statement above is not true


This statement of yours is specifically what I take issue with and I still take issue with it because you have not made an argument about why I should not. 

At the risk of repeating myself, if a BS can waffle on about unmet needs after an affair (whenever in R it _is_ brought up) then this is the reason I take exception to it; they should have done it beforehand; so they therefore, in my considered opinion, have forfeited that right to do so _after_ they selfishly threw the bomb into the relationship. 

It is the actual _labelling _of the BS as a spouse that didn't meet WS needs, when the BS didn't know what those needs were in the first place, that I don't like. What were they supposed to be? A mind reader?

My WS has consistently stated that the reason he betrayed me was because he was fVcked in the head, not because there were needs of his that I had not met. _I myself, have recognised that there were needs of his that I didn't meet _and we have talked about them and he then acknowledges this, but HE has never once said me that not meeting those needs were why he did what he did. 

We are 18 months into a good R, but, (and maybe because he has never done this, this is the reason that it is so good) if he ever started to backtrack and say, "well if you had only cooked breakfast everyday or given me a blow job on Friday's, (for example) then I wouldn't have done it", then that would alter my feelings towards recovery big time, because at the time of the betrayal, I didn't have a clue, he never ONCE voiced those needs to me, so I cannot be held responsible for _not _meeting them or blamed in any way shape or form for the conscious decision of my H to do what he did.

However, I do agree that discrepancies in perception of wrong or right behaviour BEFORE the affair should certainly be worked on to improve the marriage subsequently. 

_If _the BS, like I did, recognises _themselves_ during that work, that they did not meet the WS needs then fair enough, _or,_ the BS asks specifically for some insight into what the WS needs were that the BS did not meet, (because they did not know about them) all is well and good. But I do not think the WS has any right to bring them up declaring, "You did not meet my needs and this is the precipitating factor in why I lied, cheated, and stole from you".


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Evaluating "Unmet Needs" etc. when working on Reconciliation*



BetrayedAgain7 said:


> No, I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to adults having the ability to communicate their needs pre-affair, of course they can.
> 
> 
> This statement of yours is specifically what I take issue with and I still take issue with it because you have not made an argument about why I should not.
> ...


Great post.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

askari said:


> I don't think any 'normal' married person would have an affair IF their needs were being met in the confines of the marriage.
> 
> Therefore, IMO, if a spouse 'wanders' it is because his/her spouse is not meeting their needs.


LOL. You could have stopped at "I don't think" 

Look, if you think that's how things work (and I have a bridge to sell you, cheap), then that must mean the spouse who is being cheated on probably is having an affair too in most cases, right? Goodness knows, their "need" to feel safe with a faithful partner who cares about them enough not to inflict the trauma of infidelity on them isn't being met, and that's a pretty basic "need" (or should I say "requirement"?) in any monogamous relationship (which is what both partners agreed to).

In fact, if you talk to people going through this stuff, I would say the vast majority of those being betrayed could be described as having "unmet needs" long before their spouse cheated. They just didn't cheat for the same reasons they didn't hold up a liquor store or smack their spouse in the face with a broom handle. It's wrong. It's a terrible thing to do to somebody. It reflects badly on your character, and it demonstrates a complete lack of empathy. People with high integrity just don't cheat. They don't go there.

People with integrity do get divorced, but they don't cheat. Cheating, by definition reveals a flawed character.

I am calling BS. People cheat because they want to cheat. That is the only commonality. Often, they cheat because they want to cheat and think they can get away with it without suffering any consequences, and sometimes they are perfectly fine with inflicting pain and want to play cake eater and aren't as concerned about getting away with it, and sometimes they are blowing up their marriage deliberately and out of spite and using the affair as a "soft landing", but they always do it because they wanted to do it, and there was an opportunity to cheat.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

BetrayedAgain7 said:


> if he ever started to backtrack and say, "well if you had only cooked breakfast everyday or given me a blow job on Friday's, (for example) then I wouldn't have done it", then that would alter my feelings towards recovery big time,.



And it should. The implication is that if you don't cook breakfast and deliver Friday BJs consistently, he will cheat again. Factor in habituation, and daily breakfast and Friday BJs are going to become passe after a while, so the list will just get longer and change frequently with the threat of "do this, or I cheat" which would beg the question, what demands do you start levying with the threat of cheating ... if we're all going to be on equal footing here?


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh Lord another thread descending into the madness of why spouses cheat......The whole unmet need argument is frivolous in my opinion because in most cases the betrayed spouse can argue the same thing yet they didn't commit adultery so what is it then will something simple entitlement the one characteristic all cheaters seem to have they don't feel the rules apply to them and therefore don't feel an obligation to follow them

The unmet needs argument is just blame shifting no marriage is perfect no marriage is with out its problems but both spouse's have a voice if something wrong you have an obligation to speak up and address the problem.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

To put it simple, an adulterer will always find out an unmet need or two (or a dozen) to justify. These days 'unmet needs' and 'emotional abuse' are holy cows for anyone who doesn't want any responsibility in marriage. Dixi. 




xakulax said:


> Oh Lord another thread descending into the madness of why spouses cheat......The whole unmet need argument is frivolous in my opinion because in most cases the betrayed spouse can argue the same thing yet they didn't commit adultery so what is it then will something simple entitlement the one characteristic all cheaters seem to have they don't feel the rules apply to them and therefore don't feel an obligation to follow them
> 
> The unmet needs argument is just blame shifting no marriage is perfect no marriage is with out its problems but both spouse's have a voice if something wrong you have an obligation to speak up and address the problem.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

xakulax said:


> Oh Lord another thread descending into the madness of why spouses cheat......The whole unmet need argument is frivolous in my opinion because in most cases the betrayed spouse can argue the same thing yet they didn't commit adultery so what is it then will something simple entitlement the one characteristic all cheaters seem to have they don't feel the rules apply to them and therefore don't feel an obligation to follow them
> 
> The unmet needs argument is just blame shifting no marriage is perfect no marriage is with out its problems but both spouse's have a voice if something wrong you have an obligation to speak up and address the problem.


Well yes and with respect, not the most eloquent but yes 

.......................nail on head


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## xakulax (Feb 9, 2014)

Headspin said:


> Well yes and with respect, *not the most eloquent but yes *
> 
> .......................nail on head




Hey you try writing on an iPad with a hangover lol


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

Please don't take it as a personal attack, but it is my opinion based on CWI info and personal experience that too many WW's put to much emphasis on 'needs' and too little on 'communication'. I'd be dare to add that post affair 'communication' beats all 'needs' of WW hands down, and more processes of R would be more successful when WW does understand how to communicate properly.




Mrs_Mathias said:


> You're not actually disagreeing with me. You state it IS possible for a WS to communicate their needs pre-affair and for a BS to not respond.


 _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

manticore said:


> all of this while in their 7 months of R she never stopped talking and later sleeping with the OM, she was convincing the OM to divorce and to get together, when "dingerdad" found the truth in DD3 it was too late, in DD3 she left home to be with the OM, but "dingerdad" was at least happy that she left and he was with his kids in his home, but it did not stopped there, they were ploting for months, "dingerdad" didn't even have time to defend himself as he believed in his R, she now with the power and money of the OM (who is a millionare) went viciously after him take the home and the kids from him and he had to move out to a new town 45 minutes away form his kids.


I know I'm late to this thread, but I had to comment on this post because it's so full of win. :smthumbup:

The saga of dingerdad and Allybabe18 was one of the most tragic and infuriating stories on TAM ever. Not just because of infidelity, but she played us, as well as dingerdad.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> I don't think it's blame shifting to acknowledge relationship issues, unless someone is saying that is "why" they cheated.


That's usually what happens. Its the old disclaimer of "I cheated and I take responsibility for that.....*BUT*.."

To not be blameshifting, you don't, in the early stages of DDay, highlight all of the things you don't like in the marriage. 

To not be blameshifting, you deal with the cheating with no "but".
Once the cheating is dealt with and the reconciliation path has been chosen, then you can make "needs" known.

But you do not throw these so-called unmet "needs" in the BS face when they just found out ya f####d someone else.




> And again, I don't think this is something that can be tackled until the lion's share of the work repairing the infidelity is done successfully.


I agree. Leave the shortcomings of your BS at the door until one has dealt with the big elephant in the room that is the cheating itself.


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## TryingToRecover (Dec 19, 2012)

vellocet said:


> That's usually what happens. Its the old disclaimer of "I cheated and I take responsibility for that.....*BUT*.."
> 
> To not be blameshifting, you don't, in the early stages of DDay, highlight all of the things you don't like in the marriage.
> 
> ...



I totally agree, and there are WS's who do not voice their unmet needs prior to an affair. Then unmet needs are often thrown in their faces post dday. In these cases, the BS isn't given a chance to know and given a chance to deal with the unmet needs (not that this is an excuse for cheating) and those WS's who engage in throwing unmet needs in the face of their BS prior to the elephant in the too being dealt with....well.....a BS just can't win in this scenario. The control and abuse the WS is attempting by doing this really p*sses me off when I think about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

vellocet said:


> That's usually what happens. Its the old disclaimer of "I cheated and I take responsibility for that.....*BUT*.."
> 
> To not be blameshifting, you don't, in the early stages of DDay, highlight all of the things you don't like in the marriage.
> 
> ...


Agreed, unmet needs or not, the poor boundaries and choices made by the WS need to be addressed independantly of anything else. If the choice to cheat is tied to some 'but', then what happens if you can't get your big 'but' out of the way? In R, the WS could always choose to cheat again because the unmet need is not yet met. 

My STBX flipped everything back on to the state of our marriage and her own emotional issues. Basically if I tried to R, the risk would forever remain that if I wasn't perfectly attentive to her needs, she might get depressed and cheat again. No flipping way I would even think about R with that sword hanging over my head. At this point if she tried to tell me she accepts responsibility for her actions and will never cheat again, I wouldn't believe her. She made and broke too many promises to count. So, her word is meaningless to me now.


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