# The biology sex – so much for free will, why we cheat, etc.



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Machiavelli, the controversial TAM poster who bit the dust, irritated some women posters because he constantly painted a picture of female sexual desire as a psychological process driven by biology.

He enjoyed telling betrayed husbands that other men supplanted them by drugging their waywards wives with mood enhancing semen. Two posters on TAM who have degrees in biology suggested that Machiavelli believed what he wanted to but had no hard science to back it up.



> In fact, semen has a very complicated chemical profile, containing over 50 different compounds (including hormones, neurotransmitters, endorphins and immunosupressants) each with a special function and occurring in different concentrations within the seminal plasma. Perhaps the most striking of these compounds is the bundle of mood-enhancing chemicals in semen. There is good in this goo. Such anxiolytic chemicals include, but are by no means limited to, cortisol (known to increase affection), estrone (which elevates mood), prolactin (a natural antidepressant), oxytocin (also elevates mood), thyrotropin-releasing hormone (another antidepressant), melatonin (a sleep-inducing agent) and even serotonin (perhaps the most well-known antidepressant neurotransmitter).


source

This thread is the place to discuss biology.

Sandfly, another poster who fell by the wayside, wrote: "Love is just chemicals masquerading as choice."

Do you agree? 








A famous woman thinker on such issues

Helena Cronin On Wikipedia


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Semen is the paint, my penis is the brush, her face and body is the canvas.

This is what I want to believe and I have no hard evidence to back it up. In fact I have no evidence whatsoever.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Indeed, semen has even been used as invisible ink by spies who couldn't dip their pens in lemon juice.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Here is a typical example. A study is conducted to correlate hip width and sexual behavior.



> Waist-to-hip ratio (WHR) is an important ornament display that signals women’s health and fertility. Its significance derives from human development as a bipedal species. This required fundamental changes to hip morphology/musculature to accommodate the demands of both reproduction and locomotion. The result has been an obstetric dilemma whereby women’s hips are only just wide enough to allow the passage of an infant. Childbirth therefore poses a significant hip width related threat to maternal mortality/risk of gynecological injury. It was predicted that this would have a significant influence on women’s sexual behavior. To investigate this, hip width and WHR were measured in 148 women (M age = 20.93 + 0.17 years) and sexual histories were recorded via questionnaire. Data revealed that hip width per se was correlated with total number of sexual partners, total number of one night stands, percentage of sexual partners that were one night stands, number of sexual partners within the context of a relationship per year sexually active, and number of one night stands per year sexually active. By contrast, WHR was not correlated with any of these measures. Further analysis indicated that women who predominantly engaged in one night stand behavior had wider hips than those who did not. WHR was again without effect in this context. Women’s hip morphology has a direct impact on their risk of potentially fatal childbirth related injury. It is concluded that when they have control over this, women’s sexual behavior reflects this risk and is therefore at least in part influenced by hip width.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> *Machiavelli, the controversial TAM poster who bit the dust, irritated some women posters because he constantly painted a picture of female sexual desire as a psychological process driven by biology.*
> 
> He enjoyed telling betrayed husbands that other men supplanted them by drugging their waywards wives with mood enhancing semen. Two posters on TAM who have degrees in biology suggested that Machiavelli believed what he wanted to but had no hard science to back it up..............


Awww has he gone :smthumbup: why do I always miss the good stuff around here?


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

LongWalk said:


> Machiavelli, the controversial TAM poster who bit the dust, irritated some women posters because he constantly painted a picture of female sexual desire as a psychological process driven by biology.
> 
> He enjoyed telling betrayed husbands that other men supplanted them by drugging their waywards wives with mood enhancing semen. Two posters on TAM who have degrees in biology suggested that Machiavelli believed what he wanted to but had no hard science to back it up.
> 
> ...


Nope not in the slightest  especially nowadays!! Sex does not equal love. In the year 2014 when safe sex is at a all time high there are girls who have never even had semen on them let alone in them. It's much more common then the Porn industry would like to make men believe.

For every freak in college there is another girl who won't get near cum for fear of STD's and cleanliness yet they still love their boyfriends!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What's the dosage that can achieve desired results?

Otherwise we are talking homeopathic treatment efficacy at best...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

John,

What would your wife say about this theory if you told her about it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She'd probably text our neurobiology major girl and ask her


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Here is a typical example. A study is conducted to correlate hip width and sexual behavior.


Biologically speaking, hip width has a lot to do with sexual attraction, but not so much sexual behavior. Men naturally are drawn to women with wider hips because they are seen as fertile(good child bearing hips), although that is not always the case. Those women technically would have a "higher chance" of getting a man on looks alone, but that doesn't mean she's willing to hop into bed with any guy. Behavior is a choice, not something we're forced to do by anyone or anything. 

Attraction, looking at it biologically, is very interesting. Looking for symmetry in a person's face, pheromones, body shape, estrogen levels, voice pitch, and so on all effect everyone on a biological level without most people knowing it. Who you are attracted to has a lot to do with biology, without you realizing it. We looked over a lot of this in a class I took when I was earning my degree. 



OhGeesh said:


> Nope not in the slightest  especially nowadays!! *Sex does not equal love*. In the year 2014 when safe sex is at a all time high there are girls who have never even had semen on them let alone in them. It's much more common then the Porn industry would like to make men believe.
> 
> For every freak in college there is another girl who won't get near cum for fear of STD's and cleanliness yet they still love their boyfriends!!


:iagree:

Most people today do not have unprotected sex, so the claim is a bit off.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

So Anon, you discount the idea that wider hipped women are less anxious about making certain that they are committed in relationships?

Did you think the study was not objective in its construction or conclusions?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not so fast. One could associate hip size with social or economic status and there are distinctions that can be made there based not on hip size but at what hip size is often associated with.

It's like the coffee causes heart disease studies. There's a lot of data associating high coffee consumption with high stress, so in reality it's not the coffee causing heart disease but stress


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> So Anon, you discount the idea that wider hipped women are less anxious about making certain that they are committed in relationships?
> 
> Did you think the study was not objective in its construction or conclusions?


Yes, I don't follow that wider hipped women are more freely having sex. Sexual behavior is a choice made by the person, and isn't to be blamed on someone's waist to hip ratio. 

Also they are saying there is a correlation(not cause and effect) of wide hips and sexual behavior, so somehow those "seem" to go together(correlation studies can sometimes be pretty pointless). The women with wider hips may have more "opportunity" for sex, but it does not mean they will go for it. 

I have an hourglass(wide hips, small waist) shape myself, which is what catches many males' attention... but I've only ever had sex with my husband.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Anonymous,

Every individual can be an exception to a trend, rule, phenomenon. So your behavior and life cannot represent all wide hipped women. There are two alternative possibilities, (1) wide hipped women chose to have more sex partners or (2) they were pursued by more men and had more choice. Could also be a combination of the two. I don't think it is morally bad sexual behavior varies. Evolution rewards species that have a rich gene pool.

Mortality in childbirth was for most of human history a very potent force, trimming the population.

It wouldn't surprize anyone if men of a certain height had more sex partners. But what hypothesis would not raise any eyebrows?

When I was a teen slim women were the most attractive. In middle age I started find curvy women more appealing. It didn't feel like a choice, just a change in the brain.


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## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

Ok, thought I would add to this conversation....(honours specialist in biology). Hip to waist ratio is something that attracts men to women in all cultures, everywhere on this planet. Sometimes the women are slim, sometimes rounder, but the ratio stays consistent. Would women who have the desired ratio behave differently? I could only imagine that the increased attention they receive from men would change their behavior, on average. That being said, I have the desired hip to waist ratio, and have always received a lot of attention from men. The only man I have been with is my husband, and am not the type that would ever cheat. A few more interesting studies reveal that men's semen contains two types of sperm, one type of sperm is forms a barrier to prevent other men's sperm access to the egg. These type of sperm are only found in polygamous mammals. Also, studies have been done where the same women were observed throughout their monthly cycles. On the days they were ovulating they dressed in more revealing clothes and preferred men who were risk takers. (The bad boys). Men were shown pictures of a women taken daily through one cycle. They found the women the most attractive during the part of her cycle when she was ovulating. These studies were large and well done. It is funny, we think we control our own behavior, but when it comes to sex biology seems to control us.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I agree with you. Of course it doesn't mean that we should belittle ourselves because we are living creatures driven by selfish gene instincts. It is actually liberating to consider desire and attraction as some how rational. However, understanding cannot come to adolescents. Romeo and Juliet = sex and love is a matter of life and death. You really have to get into your 20s to figure things out.

It would be interesting to have a camera on university students a biology lecture when a witty professor is revealing how mating decisions are being made.


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## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

I could have certainly used that lecture 25 years ago! I could have looked at my relationship with a lot more clarity. I always talk about the biology of attraction, and the behaviors that go with it when I teach evolution. High school students love that stuff, but you are right, they are still running on hormone overload and relationships are all encompassing. No rational thinking involved. In contrast I now find that there is too much rational thinking. I think the thirties are a great time to make long term life decisions.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I also can see a hypothesis for the shift in attraction from slim women curvy women later in life. A man's opportunities to mate and produce offspring are also declining, hence the pull towards women who are more likely to survive childbirth.

re: the 30s for decision making
True. However, the best marriages are a bit of luck. The young couple who fall in love and have great sexual chemistry but then evolve and mature together. This is partly good fortune, partly instinct.

I have friends, a couple who have 5 kids. They married after graduating from college. They have had plenty of struggles. They both went to a top university but their earning power has waxed and waned. They have however stuck by each other through all the difficulties. Now they are both doing well professionally, although their economic troubles are persistent.

I know they would never cheat to seek an escape. This is good for their genes in the long run.

Another couple I know, actually I introduced them and was best man at their wedding, cannot have children. Why do they stay together. They have plenty of money but miss having children. So loyalty can be a plus or minus for the individual's procreation.


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## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

There definitely is a large "luck" aspect in a good marriage. Chemistry and compatibility do not go hand in hand! 

I watched a documentary once on a couple who fell madly in love and got married, rather quickly. They were pregnant with twins two months into their marriage. They clearly "loved" each other. Chemistry was not an issue. The issue was he had severe ADHD, and she was very OCD. Watching them was like watching a train wreck. He drove her absolutely nuts. He couldn't remember where he put anything, and he would leave things all over the house. She was so OCD all her canned goods had to have the labels facing frontwards, and the carpet tassles had to be combed out. They literally drove each other nuts. She was miserable all the time and he was a kind man who was puzzled and exhausted by his wife always being unhappy with him. 

I remember thinking that biology had played a cruel joke on both of these people. They were in love, yet miserable with each other. I can only speculate the stress of having to take care of twins would finish them off. It was definitely bad luck they found each other! I don't think any amount of effort and counseling could provide them with a happy marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Up to a certain point differences can be managed. My wife and I are the most different people I can think of - yet we made it work for 25 out of 30 years. The last 5... We could be thinking identically and it would not have helped much.


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## neglected42 (Aug 11, 2014)

If you don't mind me asking, what caused the breakdown if you were making it work for 25? Were they a happy 25?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Adult onset BPD  which by itself should not have been too much of an issue but combine work stress, BPD, and cultural upbringing (theocracy) and that's all she wrote.

Mostly I would say it's culture. You spend 20 years in a theocracy, 35 in the States, yet the formative years are what counts.

The first 25 were pretty happy, busy and happy. Then as we were getting used to it a whole bunch of things - internal and external - occurred and she literally changed behavior in a brief time span and was diagnosed. I suspect she had the traits - masked as cultural or personality - but did not go full BPD until then.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Anonymous,
> 
> Every individual can be an exception to a trend, rule, phenomenon. So your behavior and life cannot represent all wide hipped women. There are two alternative possibilities, (1) wide hipped women chose to have more sex partners or (2) they were pursued by more men and had more choice. Could also be a combination of the two. I don't think it is morally bad sexual behavior varies. Evolution rewards species that have a rich gene pool.
> 
> ...



I meant to imply number 2, but I guess I didn't word it very well. Some days I think I'm too tired to think with my son who keeps waking up throughout the night. 

Yes, that subconscious desire is there from hormones/chemicals in the brain, but you can't blame that for actions/behavior. During ovulation my desire for sex will sky rocket, but it doesn't mean I will jump the first guy I come across. 

In regards to evolution, it is men who are more highly moved to have more than one mate(larger gene pool, more offspring, etc.), where as women would look more for a stable mate. Sex in the past(prior to birth control) meant babies, so it would not be in her best interest to sleep around. It's why babies tend to look like the father when they are newborns to help keep the dad around.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Various religions and ideologies have tried to limit sexual behavior (reduce choice). All of the Amish Protestants or Hassidic Jews who only marry within their group would probably say that they are free and chose the partner that they chose. But that is just their perception.

Folks who send their kids to Ivy League schools expect their children to fall in love and marry people with the same social status. There are even class distinctions between the "University of X State" and "X State University".

Being horny is only part of it.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Here is a fascinating article on US military wives using surrogacy to make money. Have someone else's child while your husband is overseas.

From a biological perspective it is very rational. The husband who is a away can be more secure that his wife is not cheating on him because she is carrying a baby.

The pre-natal healthcare is covered by Uncle Sam. The selfish genes of the biological parents benefit from this because it effectively lowers the cost and increase security.

The extra money that comes into the military family goes to supporting their own children. Again a self gene motivation.


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## ChristianGrey (Nov 27, 2014)

Its not Semen but Oxytocin that does the trick for bonding and attraction.

How and when to get them released in the brain is the real question.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm ordering a 55g drum of oxytocin 2nd day air delivery:

"Scientists at The Rockefeller University in New York City genetically modified female mice so that they no longer had an oxytocin response in the prefrontal cortex. As a result, the females no longer approached male mice for mating during the sexually receptive stage of their estrous cycle. In fact, with reduced oxytocin, the female mice showed about as much interest in males as they did in a LEGO block."

From http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/...ulates-female-sexual-behavior-study-suggests/

Here's a picture from our home... The lovely Dr. J2 in the center.

View attachment 30665


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She is quite beautiful, John.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

All I need is a large mouser cat


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John.


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