# Finally facing infidelity



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

For whatever it is worth I would like to add my tale of coping with infidelity. I have lurked on CWI (and other boards) for almost two years now. Over this time I have found solace from the wisdom, kindness, and sometimes brutal honesty that posters have brought to CWI . At times I have almost posted but it never felt like I was “ready”. To be honest, I am still not sure why I am posting but I do hope that some might find some lessons, hope, or perspective in the story. 

This is a story of long term reconciliation – of sorts (some might debate applying that term here). My wife and I have been together 32 years, married almost 30 years now, with two DS (14 and 17). Our first ten years together were spent partly apart in different schools and partly travelling the world in search of adventure. After returning to “settle down” we both struggled to readjust our lives and our relationship to this new context. There were arguments and resentments but there were many good times as well. Soon my fWW had two affairs at work – the first an EA (co-worker) and the second an EA/PA (supervisor). 

*The Affairs*
The first EA was built from W confiding our marital troubles to a coworker that she commuted with. Unknown to me he began to leave her flowers and love notes at work, which she “laughed off” even when her other coworkers noticed. In reality she loved the attention. After a few months of this they went for a hike one day while I was across the country on work. That evening they came back to our house to play music (both play instruments). From what I know nothing physical happened aside from him trying to kiss her as he left (she dodged that). She told me the day I returned – and was very apologetic. Commuting with him stopped but they continued to work at the same place. By and large it was rugswept and we went on with life. 

The second affair with her boss was a little over one year after the first affair ended. Ironically enough it also had a component of driving together to work (yes, I am amazed at how I learned nothing from the first time! :scratchhead. OM2 pursued her, subtly at first but more aggressively later on, for 6 months. The magic ingredients of attention and praise were in play once again. It culminated in a morning where W declared love for OM2 at work and a sexual rendezvous that afternoon in the forest. Once the physical part began that day, W now insists that she quickly realized she was not “in love” and something was not right – but (as she explains it) she felt obligated to live up to her declaration of love / give him some pleasure. Apparently disappointing me, or our marriage, or her own values took a back seat (or no seat for that matter) there. 

According to W just after they finished it hit her again how terribly wrong this was (convenient timing :scratchhead. She insisted on telling me that night what had happened (despite OM2’s pleas not to tell me). That was the most awful night of my life. I have been in some pretty life-threatening situations in remote places before but nothing has even come close to the shock, pain, and utter destruction that came with that night. W sat me down in our bedroom and told me of her EA with OM2 and what had happened that day. I was stunned and felt frozen initially. But W was obviously very upset and my protective instincts kicked in. I held her and comforted her for hours while we talked and gave her my unconditional love and support (okay, I see those shaking CWI heads ). She told me a sanitized and minimized version of the events but it was clear a PA had occurred. I did not push her then as it was clear how upset she was. She announced that in her confusion she was not sure what she wanted to do with our marriage and that she would need a few days to think about it. I did not say anything (can you spell d-o-o-r-m-a-t?). I spent a long, lonely, and traumatizing night sitting up, watching the rain come down in the glow of the streetlight as she slept. 

*The Aftermath*
Within a few days W recommitted to our marriage, showing regret but (as I am just now learning) no real remorse. My pain was swept away – especially in MC – by an MC that focused almost only on her feelings, boundary issues, and causes for the marriage breakdown. I was made to think that my pain was invalid and something I needed to get past (oh, I know how familiar this must sound). She stopped driving with OM2 but continued to work with him (oh, geez can the decisions get any worse?). I would find out many years later that he kept pursuing her, but except for a hand-holding episode nothing else physical happened. After 6 months I insisted she leave the job, but he offered to go instead. I would never know until many years later that for more than a year after the affair “ended” she maintained an EA in her head – even writing in her journal that she was sad that “a door of opportunity that I have held just a little open was closing” when she learned the OM was getting married. That is a piece of writing I saw just two years ago and it has seared itself into my soul in a most painful way.

WW pushed all of this under the rug as fast as she could. She wanted to move on and thought having children would be just the recipe. I was very reluctant, given all of the turmoil (and my pain inside that I barely was willing to recognize). But WW was insistent, and as a good doormat I finally agreed. Two years after the A ended our first son was born, followed by our second son 3 years after that. Once the boys came we both were wrapped up in the wonder and love of raising them and creating a family. Despite my reservations it became a fantastic and wonderful journey for me (and all of us).

*A Long Overdue Turning Point*
Life went on and actually much of it was wonderful. But inside something was never fully right since that time. Sleep was never sound and some days were covered in a blanket of sadness that I never could understand. Each time I confronted it, it all seemed so long ago and something to just “get over” that I pushed it further under the rug. That lasted until 2.5 years ago. In May 2012 I decided I could no longer hold it all inside. Since that time we have rode a tsunami of emotions. At first, W was reluctant to discuss or even think about the affairs – “so long ago” / “ancient history”. She even went so far in her fear of having to confront them to say she was not sure she loved me – or could love me “forever”. As one very wise poster here at CWI has said – it was like ripping a bandied off of a wound that had not fully healed.

Much of the first year where we began finally confronting the affairs was spent in trying to reconstruct what had happened (so much of which is forever lost to memory). So many of the things that I read about on CWI happened: TT, HB, suicidal thoughts and plans, rediscovery of our love and affection – intense highs and lows. Along with an increasing closeness came many reactions from WW that caused (and continue to cause) much pain. Some details of fWW’s stories of the affairs changed many times, as did interpretations of feelings and intents. W made promises to apologize, talk openly, and initiate discussions – but her follow through usually lasted only a day or two before it would fade back into old habits of ignoring everything (unless I were to insistently bring it up). We went through 4 different MCs and three ICs for me. Some were a little helpful but honestly most treated the subject of infidelity like the plague (instead insisting on not talking about it but diverting it immediately to exploring childhood issues or communication in the current relationship). In short, thus far I have found counseling to be a waste of time and money (so far). In my case, reading on CWI and other forums have helped so much more. How I wish CWI was here back when it first happened.

For the past year now my W has (for the most part) been remorseful and committed to facing our past demons and moving past them to rebuild a new marriage. It has been a terribly hard journey but I have never felt closer to her. I did discuss divorce at times, but never seriously. Has that been a mistake? At times I think yes. So much of what W has done in the past year has begun with such reluctance (but later embraced) – it hurts to often wonder just how much value she really places on us (though she always insists she wants nothing else now than us).

*The Present*
I remain deeply in love and committed but at times also skeptical and exhausted (the proverbial rollercoaster). I am convinced that although this happened more than 20 years ago – for me the clock of “dealing with it” really started 2.5 years ago. Waiting all of these years has made this so much harder. There is no doubt that we should have dealt with this right at the beginning – in ways that I’ve only recently learned from my reading at CWI and elsewhere. 

We’re making progress. I guess a positive lesson here is that a good life and in many regards a wonderful future - can arise from the ashes of infidelity – even when you do so much wrong – if the shared base of love and commitment is still there. Despite all that has happened I still feel that my W is an amazing person and I am happy to have shared this journey of life with her (though I could have done without the As). Right now I am still searching for a greater degree of inner peace than what I had after rugsweeping these affairs. Despite riding that roller coaster of emotion if I look at the big picture of the past few years I think I am moving closer to where I would like to be (though as many have said I will never forget). I have learned so much from the WWs posting on here and the perspectives of the BSs. All of you have held my hand, comforted me, and hit me over the head when necessary – without even knowing it – while I read. Thank you – all of you.

This is so much to read. If you have made it this far I thank you again. I have a list of lessons I think I learned and some specific questions but I’ll leave them for a bit. It has been emotionally exhausting just to get this far in writing.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Another pushy boss. Lovely.

Good for you taking a road i would never consider.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Rtbp's wifes boss version 2.0.

Also phillys wifes boss tho that was caught early enough to prevent tragedy.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She cheated on you before you had children. Now you've been married 30 years and have two teens to whom you can hardly explain why their parents might divorce. So, basically you have no choice but to stay together. It's too late to take another path. Understandably it is difficult to make this admission to yourself.

Do you fear that readers will urge you to divorce even now at this late date? I don't think the word reconciliation even applies any longer since leaving your wife has never really been considered.

Do you feel that your sexual and emotional biological capital has been expended on a woman who doesn't really find your genes that attractive? Wouldn't you have been happier with another woman?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Sorry you are here, but happy you found us.

Yes, it's hurts, doesn't it?

And yet we continue, one way or another.


----------



## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

yea the rug sweeping sucks it always comes back to bit you.

it is bad enough with no rug sweeping.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I continue to be perplexed by men who react as you.

I understand your wives. It isn't pretty but I understand them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks for sharing a very honest story and appraisal of how you dealt with the situation.

I hope some here read and learn from your mistakes and soft confronts, and rugsweeping of the situation.

Thanks again. I wish you the best of luck


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Alpine: Hate to see you here. But you have come to the right place.

Have you ever suspected her of anything else other than for those two affairs that she admitted to? Do you feel that she truly told you everything? Do you think that her remorse was genuine, or somewhat tepid? And, no offense intended, but do you feel that the paternity of your kids could be called into question?

I genuinely feel for you, Sir, more especially in light of the fact that what you're seemingly living in right now is little more than a shell of a marriage!*


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

Thank you all for your welcome; your questions; and your observations. I value all of them.



MattMatt said:


> Sorry you are here, but happy you found us.
> 
> Yes, it's hurts, doesn't it?
> 
> And yet we continue, one way or another.


So true, we do continue on. Thank you MM.



convert said:


> yea the rug sweeping sucks it always comes back to bit you.
> 
> it is bad enough with no rug sweeping.


Yes - probably one of the harshest lessons I have come to learn. At this point I amazed that I let this happen. But I did.



ConanHub said:


> I continue to be perplexed by men who react as you.
> 
> I understand your wives. It isn't pretty but I understand them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I understand you here CH.  On one hand looking back at the story I am perplexed as well. On the other hand I can see the rationalizations that I made at many of the steps along the way (much like the rationalizations made by WSs at various steps in an A). I am a somewhat different person today, understand much more (I hope) and would like to think that I would do things different today - but who can be sure?

We often make choices in life that balance positives and negatives. At the time these As happened I was convinced that I could put them behind me and everything would be fine. Did I underestimate the inner pain that would linger? Certainly. I had no clue. Was I afraid? Probably, yes. 



Sports Fan said:


> Thanks for sharing a very honest story and appraisal of how you dealt with the situation.
> 
> I hope some here read and learn from your mistakes and soft confronts, and rugsweeping of the situation.
> 
> Thanks again. I wish you the best of luck


Thank you SF. It is my hope also that someone can learn from such things.



arbitrator said:


> *Alpine: Hate to see you here. But you have come to the right place.
> 
> Have you ever suspected her of anything else other than for those two affairs that she admitted to? Do you feel that she truly told you everything? Do you think that her remorse was genuine, or somewhat tepid? And, no offense intended, but do you feel that the paternity of your kids could be called into question?
> 
> I genuinely feel for you, Sir, more especially in light of the fact that what you're seemingly living in right now is little more than a shell of a marriage!*


Thank you for your welcome and honesty Arbitrator. I do feel she has told me everything of the number of affairs and generally what happened. In both cases I would never have known had she not come to me and told me right away. She has never appeared to me to be the kind of person that could carry secrets well (but I realize how tenuous an assumption that is). The details of exactly what transpired are another matter. The details were subject to TT and even changed with time. Aside from these affairs she has been a painfully honest person throughout our time together. At some point I knew that I had to decide to trust her word on these things. As most of you know, regaining such trust is a terribly difficult thing (and I'm not there completely - will I ever be?).

After the affairs, with my (perplexing!) soft response my WW displayed regret that it had happened but no real remorse. In fact, her entitlement was more evident at times, and she has even told me that she felt I should "change" in certain ways in gratitude for her coming back (though she never voiced that). This is an attitude that horrifies her now. Now I see true remorse. But it has been a long road. It came grudgingly at first, but with reading here and in books she gradually has come to realize much that she brushed aside back then. So, yes, at this point I do feel I am seeing true remorse.

In my darker hours I too have asked her about our boys - if there could be another biological father. But I really don't see this as possible. I could elaborate but I'm confident that I am the father.

Perhaps I painted too bleak a picture of things in my story. In looking back on the last 30 years, apart from these affairs I consider that I have had a rich life - and continue to be happy that I've shared it with her. She has been a wonderful companion and co-parent. And even during the rugsweeping years there was a great deal of love and closeness at some level. Since we have begun to tackle this head-on we have grown a great deal closer and moved toward a marriage that was even better than before the affairs. But I still have a good deal of healing to do and she is finally tackling some of the hard "why" questions about her affairs. We didn't grow as quickly as many other here on TAM seem to. But we're still working on it. Thank you again for your caring.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

LW - sorry I missed putting your post into my previous reply (still getting this system down).



LongWalk said:


> She cheated on you before you had children. Now you've been married 30 years and have two teens to whom you can hardly explain why their parents might divorce. So, basically you have no choice but to stay together. It's too late to take another path. Understandably it is difficult to make this admission to yourself.
> 
> Do you fear that readers will urge you to divorce even now at this late date? I don't think the word reconciliation even applies any longer since leaving your wife has never really been considered.
> 
> Do you feel that your sexual and emotional biological capital has been expended on a woman who doesn't really find your genes that attractive? Wouldn't you have been happier with another woman?


I am not completely convinced that I no longer have a choice only to stay. Certainly two years ago when we were first confronting things head on and I saw resistance from her to really addressing it with the urgency that I felt - I thought more than once that I was almost ready to leave. Divorce was and is on the table. But when I look at things from both angles I still feel I am better off staying and trying to make this marriage better. Every week I see more and more from my W on this and she remains someone that I would love to spend the rest of my life with - IF I can cope with the pain that has welled up in torrents since we "unswept" things. That is still an "IF".

Your final couple of questions are hard. After much discussion on the last couple of years about the affairs I have become convinced that my WW always did want things to work with us first in her heart. She made some terrible choices and allowed praise and attention from others to make her feel understood and loved. Would I have been happier with someone else? Apart from the affairs I seriously doubt it. We match well in so many regards and challenge and support each other so well. The love has always been there and its expression is getting richer and richer. But then comes the question of whether moving on with someone else without the affair baggage would have been better. A very good question - and one I have pondered much in the past 2 years. I wish I had an answer for that.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Better late than never. You both needed to address this. She needed to come face to face with what she was and you needed to finally react properly to her betrayal and rather"flippant" attitude afterwards.

Her arrogance in her value as a mate, she way overestimated herself, combined with your passivity in relation to her behavior was a recipe for disaster.

Thank you for sharing. It is like being granted access to an alien landscape. I don't think I'll ever get a good hold on this issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"Her arrogance in her value as a mate, she way overestimated herself, combined with your passivity in relation to her behavior was a recipe for disaster."

This is a great encapsulation of the A and its fallout.

Alpine,

I truly hope you are able to move forward....how much more painful would it be to not only lose your M and WW from the devastation of infidelity, but then to also realize that a further 20 years, around a quarter of your entire probable lifespan, were sunk into an attempted R that ultimately failed.

Best of luck.


----------



## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

From your post, I would say that you have decided to stay in your marriage. I believe that you feel that you can do no better than your wife. You have placed her in a pedestal and you have decided to keep her there.

Her affairs bother you now after 20 years or more. I believe that her affairs (both of them) were emotional and physical affairs. She told you about her affairs to feel free from guilt. She knows you will forgive and rugsweep to keep her. You posted that you did not feel nor see real remorse from her until years later. Your gut feelings are right.

Her last affair was telling. She did not quit her job, but the other man did. Shortly, he left his job and got married. You posted that she continued her emotional affair. I say that the other man rejected her as he loved someone else, enough to leave his job to get married. She came back to you, had children, and expected you to act like her affairs were insignificant. This had bothered you since the beginning of her affairs, but you were afraid that you can't do any better.

You need to see a psychologist to understand yourself. You've mentioned that you have seen many marriage counselors. This time , you need to work on yourself. No matter what your decision is, you need to work on your mental framework especially on the infidelity issues of your wife. You cannot accept that she has betrayed you and loved other men in your marriage. Yes, she loved them. (I'm a woman and 56 years of age.) You are internally conflicted.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Before I post anything else, I'd like to know:
What consequences has she ever suffered for cheating?
What exposure has been done?
What has she effort has she made to save the marriage? So far, I've only read what you've done
Is she completely transparent?


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> From your post, I would say that you have decided to stay in your marriage. I believe that you feel that you can do no better than your wife. You have placed her in a pedestal and you have decided to keep her there.
> 
> Her affairs bother you now after 20 years or more. I believe that her affairs (both of them) were emotional and physical affairs. She told you about her affairs to feel free from guilt. She knows you will forgive and rugsweep to keep her. You posted that you did not feel nor see real remorse from her until years later. Your gut feelings are right.
> 
> ...


Most of this is painfully correct. I certainly had her on a pedestal before the affairs and for many of the years since. I would say that this has changed somewhat in the past few years - with my rollercoaster of emotion taking me from despising her as a devil incarnate all the way back to that pedestal. On sum though I think most of the time my view is more balanced than before (he says hopefully). 

I do need a great deal of self work. You are right. I did see 3 ICs (one a psychologist - but was only able to get monthly appointments and that was too frustrating for me at the time). Ever so slowly I have been moving from the point where I felt that I *needed* her in my life to the point where I was evaluating if I *wanted* her in my life.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> Before I post anything else, I'd like to know:
> What consequences has she ever suffered for cheating?
> What exposure has been done?
> What has she effort has she made to save the marriage? So far, I've only read what you've done
> Is she completely transparent?


*Consequences: & Exposure*
None for the most part on first affair - swept under the rug and a grand piano placed firmly over that rug. We all know what a terrible mistake that was. She only had to find a new commuting partner. 

Within a week after the second affair she told her parents, sisters, and my parents at my insistence. A few close friends were told but most still do not know. About 18 months after D-Day I wanted a fresh start and found a job in a different state. She had to quit the job that she had during the affairs and come with me. Two years later we moved back to this area again and a couple of years after that she rejoined that same workplace (different department; OMs both long gone). More recently she has increasingly engaged in reading TAM and many books on infidelity and working on herself (motivations, understanding what was going on in her head) - not sure if those are "consequences" - but at least some hard work that she's been putting in.

*Efforts Made:*
Within a week after D-Day2 she began to identify MCs and eventually scheduled one that we saw for 6 months. Her view of "saving" the marriage really consisted of heavy rugsweeping and "moving forward" at that time. This has changed (gradually) very much over the past few years. She has taken the lead in scheduling MC, done a great deal of reading to learn about infidelity and its effects as well as remorse, answered all of my questions (to the best of her memory - not always easy after so long). Our last MC told me point blank that if I didn't move past this and drop it soon I would chase her away. She rejected that notion and tells me most days that she will be here as long as I want her. It has taken her a long time to understand how consuming this can be for a BS - something she did not comprehend right after I ripped that bandaid off 2.5 years ago. Some days I feel bitter and see it all as "too little too late". Other days I see it as an evolution in the direction we both want to head.

*Transparency:*
She is completely transparent now. Shortly after we began facing this a few years ago she read her journal from the post D-Day period with me (I had not know it existed). It was painful at times to read and reassuring at other times. Her EA continued in her mind to some degree - especially as a refuge to our post D-Day struggles. This was hidden from me at the time. But now I do feel she is transparent. When we began to face this she offered up all access to her email and cell phone (neither really existed back then during the affairs) - and detailed accounts of where she was and who with. My need for that has drastically decreased (except when I see strange men asking for a connection to her on LinkedIn).

I hope this helps.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Alpine I have a couple of questions.

If you had reacted then as you have reacted now (2.5 years ago) what do you think would have happened? You mentioned you put your wife on a pedestal and your wife had a strong sense of entitlement. Do you feel that had you demand accountability and remorse then she would have resisted even more strongly? Would the marriage have survived?

Second question. Now that your wife is older and has less (to quote the great Machiavelli) sexual market value i.e. she cannot draw as many quality men as she could when she was young, do you think this is the reason she has been so remorseful and desperate to save your marriage? In other words now that she's past her prime she knows she can't do better than you so she's terrified of losing what she has.


----------



## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Alpine said:


> *Consequences: & Exposure*
> None for the most part on first affair - swept under the rug and a grand piano placed firmly over that rug. We all know what a terrible mistake that was. She only had to find a new commuting partner.
> 
> Within a week after the second affair she told her parents, sisters, and my parents at my insistence. A few close friends were told but most still do not know. About 18 months after D-Day I wanted a fresh start and found a job in a different state. She had to quit the job that she had during the affairs and come with me. Two years later we moved back to this area again and a couple of years after that she rejoined that same workplace (different department; OMs both long gone). More recently she has increasingly engaged in reading TAM and many books on infidelity and working on herself (motivations, understanding what was going on in her head) - not sure if those are "consequences" - but at least some hard work that she's been putting in.
> ...


Actually, I think it looks good. She's doing the heavy lifting needed, even though she was reluctant at first and actually became truly remorseful. Interesting. Being freely transparent really does help the BS relax from being hypervigilant. And it looks like you're starting the gradually heal. 

You're 2.5 years from DDay, and that emotional roller coaster ride is still there, but the dips and the highs start to flatten out over time. As long as she continues to be freely transparent and helps you heal, you're well on your way to recovery. 

Do you have any programs that monitor any cell phones or computers? And if so, how often do you check? As time goes by and you continue to find nothing, are you checking less and less?

It is refreshing though, to see a couple doing it right. :smthumbup:


----------



## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

I, too, would like to know what consequences she has faced. 

So many times its simply reflection and apologies. Yeah it sucks to know and admit in MC you're a lying cheater, and do bad things. Does it approach being a husband that must live the rest of his life knowing of his wife's adultery? Fark no.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

bfree said:


> Alpine I have a couple of questions.
> 
> If you had reacted then as you have reacted now (2.5 years ago) what do you think would have happened? You mentioned you put your wife on a pedestal and your wife had a strong sense of entitlement. Do you feel that had you demand accountability and remorse then she would have resisted even more strongly? Would the marriage have survived?
> 
> Second question. Now that your wife is older and has less (to quote the great Machiavelli) sexual market value i.e. she cannot draw as many quality men as she could when she was young, do you think this is the reason she has been so remorseful and desperate to save your marriage? In other words now that she's past her prime she knows she can't do better than you so she's terrified of losing what she has.


Bfree – thank you for these questions. In fact these are two questions that I have wrestled with periodically over the past few years and gained some insight from reading others’ stories mat TAM.

_"If you had reacted then as you have reacted now (2.5 years ago) what do you think would have happened? You mentioned you put your wife on a pedestal and your wife had a strong sense of entitlement. Do you feel that had you demand accountability and remorse then she would have resisted even more strongly? Would the marriage have survived?"_

I wonder about this often; less so as the months go on, but still ponder it from time to time. My bottom-line gut feeling is that had I reacted more strongly our marriage would have survived and I would have been on the road to healing much, much sooner. This was probably the single biggest mistake I made. It amazes me that I did no outside reading back then (no discussion boards were available and I didn’t pick up a single book on infidelity – seems crazy now). Our first MC really just focused on what was wrong in the relationship that would have opened her up to the decision to cheat – nothing on remorse and accountability or my feelings.

Upon reflection, I think there are two reasons that I did not confront strongly. One was fear – primarily, fear of driving her away. On D-Day she related that some of her resentment in the marriage came from my being too controlling and overbearing. I distinctly remember thinking that more of anything resembling that would meet with resistance and further resentment (as you asked) and thus push her further away.

The second reason is perhaps overconfidence on my part (strange that it would go with the fear and soft confront but I think it did). In the forefront of my mind I pretty quickly came to feel that this OM2 was not a real threat to our marriage. She had come home immediately, confessed and was clearly regretful (crying – and I believe it was real). I knew the OM to some degree (having heard a lot about him from W) and felt that he could not offer her anything near the kind of life we had shared – particularly the kind of activities we both enthusiastically shared together. Was it a true sense of confidence or just something I concocted to mask my fear? I honestly cannot say. But it pushed the severity of the affair under the rug where it lay festering for decades. I also don’t fully understand the change in me that happened 2.5 years ago. The affairs had nagged at me over the years but it was low-level, background feelings most of the time and we had a very good life. 2.5 years ago it was like a switch got flipped.

Why do I think the marriage would have survived with a stronger confront? I have come to believe that she truly loves me – and did then. She is consistent with her message that she never had any intentions to leave our marriage and saw her OM as more of a temporary escape. When I did change jobs and move away she did quit her job and came with me – even though she was clear that it was a job she did not wish to leave. I think I could have been strong in my needs for remorse - communicated in ways that clearly showed the basis was from love. But unfortunately this is hindsight and wisdom garnered more recently.

_"Now that your wife is older and has less (to quote the great Machiavelli) sexual market value i.e. she cannot draw as many quality men as she could when she was young, do you think this is the reason she has been so remorseful and desperate to save your marriage? In other words now that she's past her prime she knows she can't do better than you so she's terrified of losing what she has."_

This question has haunted me at times over the past few years. For about a year I would say that I posed it to her in one way or another almost every week or two. She claims this is not the case (of course one could expect that). My gut feeling is to believe her on this, but small doubts nibble at the edges of my trust on that. She had made it clear that she wants our marriage but that if I need to leave to find peace of mind she would support that and would be okay on her own. I don’t think she is interested in alternatives at this point. They would probably still be plentiful. She is in her mid-50s but looks 15 or more years younger (years back someone asked if she was my daughter – ouch). She is athletic, beautiful, and has a kind and gentle mannerism (apart from the serious entitlement that reared its head then and still pops up occasionally – we’re trying to talk that through and she realizes that she needs some IC). One other trait she has is a fair degree of passivity in relationships. She claims that for decades she felt I was never quite “right” and wished we could be closer but never took the initiative to do anything about it. She feels terrible about that but I’m still not sure that “feeling terrible” has been enough to jolt her out of that passive behavior to taking some control of her part in the relationship. I have made it clear that this is critical for my healing. I need to see that she values this marriage such that she will not just respond to my requests but to take some initiative in helping us heal. This is an ongoing struggle as it is something that changes slowly. But is has been changing, and that gives me hope.

All of this is a little muddled, but that mirrors my thinking on so much these days. Muddling through – but in a good direction. I do feel we are getting there and if I can continue to grow and learn, and she continues on such a path that our periods of love and closeness will continue to get larger and my “need” to contemplate and feel the affairs will lessen.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

Forest said:


> I, too, would like to know what consequences she has faced.
> 
> So many times its simply reflection and apologies. Yeah it sucks to know and admit in MC you're a lying cheater, and do bad things. Does it approach being a husband that must live the rest of his life knowing of his wife's adultery? Fark no.


AMEN! :iagree:


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

lordmayhem said:


> Actually, I think it looks good. She's doing the heavy lifting needed, even though she was reluctant at first and actually became truly remorseful. Interesting. Being freely transparent really does help the BS relax from being hypervigilant. And it looks like you're starting the gradually heal.
> 
> You're 2.5 years from DDay, and that emotional roller coaster ride is still there, but the dips and the highs start to flatten out over time. As long as she continues to be freely transparent and helps you heal, you're well on your way to recovery.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this LM! She is doing the heavy lifting. At first (2.5 years ago) my needs were so urgent and large that probably nobody could have kept up with them (lifting enough). They were also met with some resistance. But that has changed. It took a long time for the idea of true remorse to set into action (often actions would last just a few days and then she would settle back into a familiar passive "let's focus on our work and daily chores" pattern. The more she reads here and elsewhere - and the more we talk about pain and healing, the more things are changing. I still think some IC around her resistance to all of this is crucial.

I do not have any programs that systematically check this. Honestly, if something was going on at work it would be completely easy to conceal it from me. However, she is pretty un-savvy as far as technology goes. I do check her work email (she provided the access from home) periodically. 2.5 years ago I checked every week or so. Now it rarely crosses my radar (I think I check once in the last few months and that was after some external trigger - a poor choice in movies I think). Every once in a while I'll check browser histories on the home computer but that's about it. My sense of current safety has increased dramatically in the past year. That said, I still find myself wrestling more with what happened in the past (as compared to what could happen in the future). I do believe her when she tells me she is here in the marriage for good (except the periodic bad days). One of the keys to finding more peace about this for me will be figuring out hope to accept more fully what did happen in the past and move on. I have some degree of acceptance, but that wavers from time to time. Much of what I have read here on TAM has been a huge help to me in that area.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Roselyn said:


> From your post, I would say that you have decided to stay in your marriage. I believe that you feel that you can do no better than your wife. You have placed her in a pedestal and you have decided to keep her there.
> 
> Her affairs bother you now after 20 years or more. I believe that her affairs (both of them) were emotional and physical affairs. She told you about her affairs to feel free from guilt. She knows you will forgive and rugsweep to keep her. You posted that you did not feel nor see real remorse from her until years later. Your gut feelings are right.
> 
> ...



I agree Ros


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Alpine said:


> *Consequences: & Exposure*
> None for the most part on first affair - swept under the rug and a grand piano placed firmly over that rug. We all know what a terrible mistake that was. She only had to find a new commuting partner.
> 
> Within a week after the second affair she told her parents, sisters, and my parents at my insistence. A few close friends were told but most still do not know. About 18 months after D-Day I wanted a fresh start and found a job in a different state. She had to quit the job that she had during the affairs and come with me. Two years later we moved back to this area again and a couple of years after that she rejoined that same workplace (different department; OMs both long gone). More recently she has increasingly engaged in reading TAM and many books on infidelity and working on herself (motivations, understanding what was going on in her head) - not sure if those are "consequences" - but at least some hard work that she's been putting in.
> ...


so many stories about horrible MC advice here. At least she's trying to be remorseful and this MC think you are 'chasing her away' with your attitude ? Either BS or she told two different stories then


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Alpine said:


> Bfree – thank you for these questions. In fact these are two questions that I have wrestled with periodically over the past few years and gained some insight from reading others’ stories mat TAM.
> 
> _"If you had reacted then as you have reacted now (2.5 years ago) what do you think would have happened? You mentioned you put your wife on a pedestal and your wife had a strong sense of entitlement. Do you feel that had you demand accountability and remorse then she would have resisted even more strongly? Would the marriage have survived?"_
> 
> ...


Thanks for addressing my post. The reason I asked those questions is because I tried to put myself in your position and those are the two most glaring doubts that popped into my mind. Having read your response I concur that your marriage would have survived had you confronted all those years ago. Even if she was somewhat entitled. Even if she were incredibly stubborn. Your description of her passivity tells me that she is a woman that enjoys having her say but wants her man to lead the relationship. So in my humble opinion I believe that if you had lead her then like you are leading her now she would have responded similarly.

As for my second question I will say this. You claim she looks much younger for her age. You speak of her good health, good looks and good figure. However, she knows how old she is. She instinctively knows her ability to "pull" men is diminished. So I do think it is playing somewhat of a role in how this is playing out. But having said that my attitude is "so what." If she has made you relatively happy throughout your relationship and if she is now following your lead and bettering your marriage then good for her, good for you and good for the marriage. She is not "settling" any more than you settled after D-day. Continue on your current path and I see great things for the two of you now and into the future.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Alpine said:


> Our last MC told me point blank that if I didn't move past this and drop it *soon* I would chase her away.


I'm glad your wife rejected the idea. Though if you badger her long enough she may finally give up and leave. So in a sense your MC was right, but I think he was overly fearful of dealing with the infidelity.

What I really wanted to say, though, is that you have the right to need what you need from your wife in the way of explanations and repentance. Everyone is slightly different in what they need, but the bottom line is you need to find understanding about what happened so you can move forward. 

So don't ever apologize for needing to get answers. Your MC sounds very typical. For some reason they don't seem to understand that the past has to be processed before a new future can be built.


----------



## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

> I did not say anything (can you spell d-o-o-r-m-a-t?).


Yes. Can you spell c-u-c-k-o-l-d because that exactly what you are ...


----------



## lovesmanis (Oct 9, 2014)

It has been a long time since her affairs.

You decided to continue to live life after that and have admitted here that things have been good.

You are justified in your feelings, she did make 2 terrible mistakes, however a lot of time has past and in that time she has shown you that she loves you and has tried.

Please do not listen to all the bitter hearts here.

Work through the rug sweeping and move on in a happy life with your wife.
She ****ed up, but made up for her mistakes over a long period of time.

I suffered trauma a long time ago. I rug swept it and am now coming to terms with it. My dealing with it is changing me as a person, but I cannot go back and punish people that made amends because I am now ready to face things.

Take her hand. Walk through this together and blossom. Be positive.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

lovesmanis said:


> It has been a long time since her affairs.
> 
> You decided to continue to live life after that and have admitted here that things have been good.
> 
> ...


Lovesmanis,

Thank you for this perspective and encouragement. Facing a long-ago trauma that was ignored has been the most difficult thing I've ever done. I always took pride in being able to handle difficult physical challenges. But nothing came close to such deep emotional wrestling. Indeed it changes us, and for me opened my eyes to more of who I was / am than I had cared to see.

"Take her hand. Walk through this together and blossom. Be positive." I will carry this with me and try.


----------



## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

You just started your healing 2.5 five yrs ago, it will take upto five yrs. Roller coaster is an understandable thing. Dont give up, both should work hard. 

I wish many posters should read this post so that they understand the problems in rug sweeping.


----------



## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Alpine, a few words for you.

You need to come to terms with your decisions for your own peace of mind. Your Opening Post is riddled with statements berating yourself about how you handled this. Go easy on yourself. We don't get taught how to deal with the betrayal of infidelity. We aren't born knowing. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone.

You're like a person that's got knocked down on a pedestrian crossing and then, as they lie there injured and broken, blames themselves for the accident. The onus was the driver (your wife) to pick you up and get you the attention that you needed. So cut yourself some slack. One thing I do feel is that your need for you to 'fix' this isn't healthy. Read "No More Mister Nice Guy" (you can find the pdf online) and see if some of your thinking patterns need a little adjusting.

Your story reminds me of a similar from a poster called Wazza. Like your situation his fWW had some kind of relationship with her boss. He never got the details. It also happened 20 years ago but, in the interim they've had a decent marriage and raised their children to adulthood. 

Your fWW's story doesn't give me the impression that you got the whole story. Make peace with the fact that after all this time you may never get the whole story, the full 'truth'. But Wazza'a case proves that you can still have a successful R in sub-optimal conditions. Your R should be focussed on what you need now. What you need to know, what you need to heal.

Good luck to you both.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

azteca1986 said:


> Alpine, a few words for you.
> 
> You need to come to terms with your decisions for your own peace of mind. Your Opening Post is riddled with statements berating yourself about how you handled this. Go easy on yourself. We don't get taught how to deal with the betrayal of infidelity. We aren't born knowing. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone.
> 
> You're like a person that's got knocked down on a pedestrian crossing and then, as they lie there injured and broken, blames themselves for the accident. The onus was the driver (your wife) to pick you up and get you the attention that you needed. So cut yourself some slack. One thing I do feel is that your need for you to 'fix' this isn't healthy. Read "No More Mister Nice Guy" (you can find the pdf online) and see if some of your thinking patterns need a little adjusting.


Thank you Azteca. I am so used to being the one to take the initiative and lead in the relationship that it has become instinctive. I will look this reading up. I've seen it mentioned in other threads but I've never actually gone to read it.



azteca1986 said:


> Your story reminds me of a similar from a poster called Wazza. Like your situation his fWW had some kind of relationship with her boss. He never got the details. It also happened 20 years ago but, in the interim they've had a decent marriage and raised their children to adulthood.


I tried to find Wazza's original story but could not locate it. Anyone have a link? 



azteca1986 said:


> Your fWW's story doesn't give me the impression that you got the whole story. *Make peace *with the fact that after all this time you may never get the whole story, the full 'truth'. But Wazza'a case proves that you can still have a successful R in sub-optimal conditions. Your R should be focussed on what you need now. What you need to know, what you need to heal.


And that (making peace) remains one of my biggest hurdles on the roller coaster. At times I do feel things turned out well, mistakes were made by both of us, but it is okay and our love and bond remain strong (and is getting stronger). At other times that peace is so very elusive and I question every decision I made and wonder what happened and why she is here (or why I am here for that matter). Sometimes it feels that a part of me is still unwilling to accept that the infidelity happened in the first place. But, I do think those "down" times come less and less now.

You are right that I will never know the "whole truth". I am more and more coming to believe that I do know the truth of what physically happened. Some details have been lost to 20 years of time with an aging memory. What seems to be harder for me is the "what was she thinking / feeling / intending" part. That seems especially hard for her to reconstruct after all of these years and gets muddled with today's (unfogged) feelings and perspectives. I wish I had the magic bullet to acceptance and peace of all of this. To embody the Serenity prayer. Again, it seems to get better with time. Patience can be hard.


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So if you had an A, how would your wife react? would she throw you out? Clearly getting tested for stds would be required.

Hopefully she has been tested sometime in the last few years.

would she let you sweep it under the rug for a decade or two?

She is smart and knows you. What has she done to show you that you are her first and only choice? 

Has she saved for a nice cruise for the two of you for a vacation?

Has she put you first ahead of herself in some way? does she realize how far off the prize she jumped by having two A's?

Has she told you about other times that she has been tempted to break her vows for her current boss or other commuting OM?

Has she ever explained things to your kids, not that it may not be a good idea? But would be important if you can't get passed this.

Wishing you times without pain.


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Wazza doesn't have a thread. It just trickles out from time to time as he dispenses advice. It's fairly well known to veterans of TAM. He's a good guy and has great insight. Maybe you might think of looking up some of his past posts for a little valuable perspective or PM him and talk a bit.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Alpine

Your wife’s betrayal was over 20 year’s ago; so was my wife’s betrayal.

Your wife told you about the affair and so did mine; I was shocked.

You compromised and appeased your wife for several years and I did not; I divorced her but she would not leave the house. She knew that I could have a life without her and she wanted the R more than I did. My wife needed me more than I needed her and we both knew that.

Your wife has been remorseful for the last year but mine has been remorseful for over 20 years.

Since you and your wife has decided to R then I will concentrate on the positive.

1	Your wife told you; you did not find out on your own

2	Your wife quit a job for you even though she did not want to

3	Your wife went to three MC

4	"She has been a wonderful companion and co-parent."

5	“The love has always been there and its expression is getting richer and richer.”

6	“It has been a terribly hard journey but I have never felt closer to her.”

7	"Now I see true remorse"

8	Your wife has shown NO signs of infidelity in the last 20 years

9	Your wife has tried being a good wife to you for TWENTY YEARS

10	Your wife now seems to be very open and truthful t you; even telling you things that many would not
.
*I would say that you have a much better chance than 50/50 to keep your R going.*

You are still troubled with certain things that you question. There are some things that will never be the same and lost. However, you can make some other areas much better than before and that will help a lot. As long as you and your wife keep going the way that you are going then those troubled things will continue to get better. In addition, I would suggest that you do a few other things that I think will help you; here they are:

1	“To embody the Serenity prayer.”

2	Do not make your wife 100% of your life; in fact do not even make her 80%-90% of your life.

3	Show your wife in word and actions that she is a very important person on your life.

4	*“I do need a great deal of work”*

Number 4 above is the most important in your case IMO. Do not take this as blaming you for her affair that is not the case. The stronger your are, the more self-reliant you are, and the more self-confident you are, the more your will be able to do the things that will help you make your R an even more of a success. *Build yourself up in very way; body, mind, spirit, emotions etc.*

Infidelity does not have to make your life below average. In fact if you do it right then you will have a life that is above average and contented and grateful


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Good post Mr Blunt. I agree, number 4 applies to all of us. We all need work. But isn't that what makes life worth living - the ability to grow beyond what we are today? God bless.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Alpine said:


> Thank you Azteca. I am so used to being the one to take the initiative and lead in the relationship that it has become instinctive.


Sounds like a good direction to move toward. Sit back. Tell her what you need. See if she will do it.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> Alpine
> 
> Your wife’s betrayal was over 20 year’s ago; so was my wife’s betrayal.
> 
> ...


Thank you Mr Blunt. I "know" the positives but don't always keep them squarely in my sights. Having you list them out like this from your outside perspective is really helpful. 

I also appreciate the encouragement and advice. Number 1 is an ongoing project. 

Number 3 is something I do often and am committed to doing so as long as we are together. I no longer accept living in some degree of emotional limbo as I did for 18 years (though I don't want to overstate that - there was love there but we were not as close and connected as we should have been). I will do my part - something both of us had let slip prior to the affairs.

Numbers 2 and 4 are critical. I have known that I need to rebuild some degree of a separate part of my life for some time now but I have not done much. When we first met each of us had a large circle of friends and activities. When not in school / work both of us were (are) avidly into climbing mountains, running, and bicycling. We clicked so well together that over the years as friends moved away we found ourselves doing these things just as a couple. Also, our families lived very far away (different country for my wife). It was intense and wonderful but it came to the point where we were each well over 90% of the other's life. This has not changed a great deal even with kids. I need a plan to rediscover more of my own center in addition to and apart from our center. Thank you for giving me a nudge on that.

Number 4 is also a hard one for me to know where to start. Counseling might help but I've had such poor / mediocre experiences with counselors over the past few years that it is hard to get moving on that. Most of it has not been covered by insurance and we've seen a lot of money fly away in these attempts. So far I have not been able to find the key to choosing effective counseling. Right now we're saving every penny for a summer trip (the whole family) to the Himalaya. So I am thinking that starting with some reading might be my best bet.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> Sounds like a good direction to move toward. Sit back. Tell her what you need. See if she will do it.


Yup! :iagree:

I've tried to do this more and more over the past year. It has been amazing to me how long it has taken for her to truly "get it". Perhaps it is because she feels too secure and comfortable. Perhaps it is because we're so darn busy (isn't everyone... priorities?). Perhaps it is she is used to being passive; or she's scared; or embarrassed; or.... I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why she tells me that "she gets it" when we talk, but the actions dwindle after a few days. :scratchhead:

All that said, gradually she is truly getting it. For some WS perhaps it takes some time. This is an email I got this morning from her:

"I hope you found another patch of peaceful sleep away from the torment I inflicted on you. You are still in my thoughts. The flurry of discussions here at work can’t push away my thoughts of you and us and where you are. I know I don’t feel the pain as you do, but I feel the worry about you and where you might be right now with your emotions. Please know that I love you so very much."


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

OP, 

Your post has opened my eye to how difficult it really all is. I've found for myself, that as time has gone on, not only rug sweeping has become a way of relating to each other, ((for hubs & me))but also how distance we are to each other, and it's almost fearful to approach something that feels so wrong to approach again. 

~sammy


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Alpine
> Numbers 2 and 4 are critical.
> *I have not done much*.


You can get a LOT better if you start improving in numbers 2 and 4. Your are wise to say that number 2 and 4 are critical but *what good will it do if you find something that can make you and your marriage a lot better but do not do much?*




> By Alpine
> we were each well over 90% of the other's life. This has not changed a great deal even with kids


In my case I had a LOT of family around and they filled in the gap quite a bit. It is unfortunate that your family is so far away. However, not only did I have the family fill the gap but I got involved in some of my interests. I went to night college and took the courses that interested me, I got involved in sports and other hobbies that I enjoyed, and got more involved in my job which I enjoy most of the time. Alpine, I am not saying that you are not to have your wife as a very important part of your life, *I am saying that my guess is that you are a bit too dependent on your wife and that can be a turn off for anyone*. My guess may be wrong but that is what I get from reading your posts.




> Number 4 is also a hard one for me to know where to start


*You start by doing things that you admire in people*. For example, do you admire people that help other people? Do you admire people that set a goal and stick with it until it is accomplished? Do your admire people that have a fear of doing something but force themselves to overcome that fear? Do your admire people that do what is morally and ethically right even if it costs then something? *I do not know what you admire but you can take ACTIONS to become that person that you admire.* That is how you build up your emotions and spirit. The spirit is like a muscle, the more that you exercise and do the steps the more you become stronger. You just cannot skip applying the steps and expect good results. *A counselor cannot do those things for you only you can do those things. *


You have been to a lot of counselors so I think that you are more stumbling over the fact that you are not taking enough actions. Your counselors may have been quacks but they are not the main issue. Good advice is only a starting point and your actions are what will get the job done. *Alpine, you know what you can do to get a lot better so the question is; are you going to take the actions that you know will get your better*?

You have a LOT going for you in your R and improving in number 2 and 4 will give you a better chance for you to keep your R secure.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Alpine said:


> This is an email I got this morning from her:
> 
> "I hope you found another patch of peaceful sleep away from the torment I inflicted on you. You are still in my thoughts. The flurry of discussions here at work can’t push away my thoughts of you and us and where you are. I know I don’t feel the pain as you do, but I feel the worry about you and where you might be right now with your emotions. Please know that I love you so very much."


That was a perfect time to respond:

Thank you. I'm trying to find it, but in all honesty, I'm reaching a point where I'm starting to wonder when your actions will meet up with your nice words. I don't need the words nearly as much as I need to see YOU doing the heavy lifting to get us past this. Patiently waiting (for now).


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I agree Turnera. While, with their ages and time together and the time period elapsed since the affairs this is one of the few cases I see a potentially successful R, it is troubling that it took WW so long to come around and not to see her do the heavy lifting that she should. It is troubling that he still doesn't know everything that happened.

I think he needs to write her a letter, send an email or sit down with some demands on what you need since you are the one in pain and you didn't ask for it and you seem to be shouldering the burden of patching this marriage up and doubling your pain.

Have you considered writing or preparing what to say and get all of your questions answered and see just how remorseful and truthful she really is.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Alpine:

Your story is moving. I'll say that the fear that has kept you in your marriage all this time is understandable. I would experience these fears following such events. Most of us can understand that. So I admit I would have similar feelings.

Of course her actions would also have filled me, if I was her husband, with a blazing and unquenchable resentment. I am not too sure you don’t have exactly that, buried deep inside you perhaps, bubbling to the surface and manifesting in different ways….in your darkest feelings and emotions.

Sounds like she is hard to pin down vis-à-vis her personality, but she is clearly selfish, narcissistic to a significant degree. I won’t understate the dilemma that men feel regarding being absent from their children vs staying married to a bad person. I often think though that more often than not, doing the ‘right thing’ is the best course, even if one has young children. It is hard to think of a more important role for a parent than to model the right reaction, the right behavior for their kids. I think you said you have two teenage boys? Would you want either of them to marry a woman like your wife?

I think the fact that you refuse to ‘let this go’ – THAT is the manifestation of your personal strength. That’s what you need to nurture. The realization that your marriage does NOT in fact have to continue, as you have admitted here in your posts. If you were to leave your wife the chances are in your favor, I believe, that you could meet and fall in love with a better woman, a much better person. Sorry but I have to say that given your description of her, what she has done in her past (which I don’t think you should dismiss the possibility of her repeating in the intervening years, completely behind your back in those cases perhaps), the right behavior to model for your boys is to leave her, and then at the right time explain to them why. You have the very same right to divorce her now that you did 20 years ago, I think, it would simply be another case of better late than never.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> That was a perfect time to respond:
> 
> Thank you. I'm trying to find it, but in all honesty, I'm reaching a point where I'm starting to wonder when your actions will meet up with your nice words. I don't need the words nearly as much as I need to see YOU doing the heavy lifting to get us past this. Patiently waiting (for now).


Thank you for this Tunera. I still find myself getting sucked in by the words alone. Granted, these word expressions is part of the heavy lifting that I need (asked for) - but alone it is not enough... which gets me to wmn's comment (below).



wmn1 said:


> I agree Turnera. While, with their ages and time together and the time period elapsed since the affairs this is one of the few cases I see a potentially successful R, it is troubling that it took WW so long to come around and not to see her do the heavy lifting that she should. It is troubling that he still doesn't know everything that happened.
> 
> I think he needs to write her a letter, send an email or sit down with some demands on what you need since you are the one in pain and you didn't ask for it and you seem to be shouldering the burden of patching this marriage up and doubling your pain.
> 
> Have you considered writing or preparing what to say and get all of your questions answered and see just how remorseful and truthful she really is.


I am working on this. When we started to unbury this 2.5 years ago we had many, many conversations about it. Early on she was not convinced it would be good to dig too deeply and our MCs backed that up with the advice that it was so long ago that it would not do us any good to rehash it (even though it had never been "hashed" much in the first place). In addition, with work, kids' endless evening activities, and home chores we found ourselves talking just as we got into bed. W is someone whose eyelids drop almost instantly and these "conversations" were often not very productive. :sleeping:

Still, I had her read some of the better threads on TAM and good books and over the course of a year or so she really started to understand how important it is to me (and us) to work through this (at least in her words). We talked about the details of what happened but I never did sit down and really think about all of what I wanted to know. I just let it come out in questions at the moment during our talks.

A couple of weeks ago I finally asked her to write out a detailed timeline of what happened with OM2. She spent a couple of hours on it the day I asked, but has since not gotten back to finishing it. After I saw your post I reminded her of that timeline - "oh yes I should finish that". I honestly think she will do it, but she tends to be the kind of person that reacts to demands in the moment. If someone is asking for a cup of hot cocoa or a report at work she will focus on that instead. I still fail to understand why these things about the affair get such low priority in actions at times (and we've had that circular discussion more than a few times in recent months). I will give her a deadline (end of the weekend) on the timeline - that should help.

Thank you both for your thoughts.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Alpine:
> 
> Your story is moving. I'll say that the fear that has kept you in your marriage all this time is understandable. I would experience these fears following such events. Most of us can understand that. So I admit I would have similar feelings.
> 
> ...


NN - thank you so much for taking the time to provide these thoughts and perspectives. After reading your post I went ahead and looked at one of your other threads (an older one on BS' anger) and it was really helpful.

You are spot on with the observation of simmering resentment. But it does not bubble up all the time. It is often mixed with much longer periods of love and sadness (something mentioned on your other thread). And sometimes just love. If it was all sadness and resentment I would not be here (in the marriage). I love her very deeply and I know that she loves me (except in those moments of despair where the world feels inside-out).

I would actually say at this point that the resentment I hold it often more tied to things that have happened in the last couple of years of R than in the affair. Her low sense of urgency in actions in R are something I find myself asking "can I live with this?" much more than the affair itself.

Would I want my boys to marry a woman like this? Geez, you know how to ask hard questions . Yes and no. Fundamentally the answer would be yes. There is so much about her that I admire and treasure. She is kind, gentle, and fiercely adventurous. She has been a great companion and friend through most of our years - something I would wish for my sons' in their future. The affairs and period of selfishness I could have done without. Some of that is still there (in all of us to some degree, no?) - but it is more balanced now - as it was when we first met and married.

One thing that is ironic to me is that part of what came into play during the affair in addition to selfishness was a propensity to want to please others. That is what drove her first EA with OM1, despite the fact she always claimed she was not attracted to him. He was somewhat of a loner and she felt a desire to provide some companionship (in addition to loving the attention and praise he heaped upon her). I realize this can get pretty circular - that it is possible her desire to provide and please was simply selfish (to keep that attention and praise coming), but I've known her for 3 decades now and I do truly believe she has a kind heart beyond her selfish desires.

Also ironically, the physical part of her EA/PA with OM2 was partly driven by her desire to please. They only had one encounter. She claims that her intent was only to kiss, hug, be close, and talk about the feelings that had just that morning been declared (she told him that morning that she was falling in love with him) - okay color me skeptical on that one. Once the kissing began she claims it felt "strange" and that there was no real physical attraction or desire on her part. The story goes that he escalated things by moving his hand up her leg and she stopped him (they were fully clothed). At that point he expressed surprise and disappointment. She "knew" that she did not want to have sex with him but also felt a strong desire to please him. Thus, she offered and gave him a HJ. Afterward she felt awful (why does that always come AFTERWARD?) - and despite his protests told him that she had to tell me right away. And she did. Even though I got a somewhat sanitized version that evening I do give her credit for coming to me right away. I do think it indicates that she was not intending to replace me with OM2. But it does not take away the pain of betrayal (and the deception of the growing EA that led up to that for weeks/months).

I found something you wrote in your earlier thread:

"_There are a lot of life lessons buried in all this turmoil - in particular the prime importance of self respect and self confidence, and how lost a person can be in addressing important life problems (such as a cheating spouse) if they lack these things....... _"

When the affairs happened I actually think I had a great deal of self respect and confidence. I felt on top of my world in many regards. When she came to me, told me what happened, and indicated she wanted to stay in the marriage I was overly confident about my ability to shrug it off. "Not a big deal", "not really sex", "temporary infatuation"... and other such phrases. That confidence in myself and our ability to move on partly led to our ability to rugsweep. Through much time (I learn slowly in this regard) I came to realize how much of a hit my self respect had taken. And as I read about how others' have dealt with this it has further eroded my self respect at times. I think you are absolutely correct that protecting and nurturing self respect for a BS is critical in recovery / coping whether the outcome is D or R. And that is what many of the wise TAM posters have pointed out in this thread.

So I move onward. I want to thank all of you who have taken your time and energy to comment and provide advice. For now I push forward with R with a W whom I see as loving, wonderful person with shortcomings and flaws (minus the pedestal). If I can deal with my inner demons (resentments), strengthen myself, and ride out the roller coaster I do feel this can be a successful R. Thank you for your support.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

She needs to be aware that her inattentive behavior towards heavy lifting is tantamount to still cheating on you and destroying her marriage. She has not been made aware of just how dangerous her flippant attitude towards your timeline really is.

HJ. How did she convince you of the details?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Alpine said:


> Early on she was not convinced it would be good to dig too deeply
> 
> Still, I had her read some of the better threads on TAM and good books and over the course of a year or so she really started to understand *how important it is to me* (and us) to work through this
> 
> ...


You're kidding, right? She has shown you CONSISTENTLY that she couldn't care less how you're feeling and just want you to GET THE HELL OVER IT already.

Yet you keep pretending she really cares. Come back in a year and let us know how that worked out.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> She needs to be aware that *her inattentive behavior towards heavy lifting is tantamount to still cheating on you* and destroying her marriage. She has not been made aware of just how dangerous her flippant attitude towards your timeline really is.


Seriously.


----------



## tawasum (Feb 1, 2015)

I am impress with your story and I commend you for your unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness towards your wife. Many good marriages have been buried in divorce because many people do not know what forgiveness is and remain ignorant of the art for forgiveness. May they learn from your story! I do have this to say to our audience concerning the imperfect predisposition surrounding every marriage:

Unlike most unmarried people, married couples eventually catch up to the realization that successful marriages are not built on the backs of perfect people with perfect relationships but on the humble backs of imperfect people graduating from hurts, extending forgiveness, asking for forgiveness and loving unconditionally. Couples with long lasting marriages have attested and continue to confirm this truth. 

Because marriage is a union between two imperfect people, mistakes are unavoidable, wrongs are susceptible, trust would be dented and couples will occasionally hurt one another. With imperfect predisposition surrounding marriage, forgiveness is a necessary shelter required to guarantee unions ‘until death do us part’! Couples who avoid entertaining forgiveness but instead opt to fall prey to bitterness, anger and revenge sadly and more often do not see the light of a decade’s anniversary as husband and wife living together! 

When you said, “I do”, it was the beginning of a whole new life. Your new life was immediately integrated with someone who might equally be as imperfect as you are or worse! In this new life and relationship, you must learn how to walk allover again as a couple. Just as a child learning how to walk trips over many times before walking, so too will you and your spouse in your new life together! While as a single person nobody zeroed in on your imperfections, in marriage your imperfections will be exposed to your spouse and you will come to very close proximity to your spouse’s imperfection and may even become a victim of his snares. One of your main challenges in marriage will soon become that of learning how to deal with the imperfections. Yet the key to this noble and often overlooked challenge is simply forgiveness! You will have no headway in communication and living in peace if you don’t learn the act of forgiving one another’s imperfections—minor or major. This is an except form my book on marriage due for publication in May 2015

Thank you. Its not just your story that is enriching and peculiarly wonderful, you are a wonderful person full of the kind of love that is rare in this wicked "eye for an eye" world that leaves everyone blind to the kind of true love that you have. Thank you again.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

tawasum said:


> I am impress with your story and I commend you for your unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness towards your wife. Many good marriages have been buried in divorce because many people do not know what forgiveness is and remain ignorant of the art for forgiveness. May they learn from your story! I do have this to say to our audience concerning the imperfect predisposition surrounding every marriage:
> 
> Unlike most unmarried people, married couples eventually catch up to the realization that successful marriages are not built on the backs of perfect people with perfect relationships but on the humble backs of imperfect people graduating from hurts, extending forgiveness, asking for forgiveness and loving unconditionally. Couples with long lasting marriages have attested and continue to confirm this truth.
> 
> ...












Aaaaanyway...

1) Forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive, and any definition of forgiveness that requires rugsweeping is not only incredibly naive, but amazingly stupid as well.

2) "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

Seriously... what a load of horribly over-used tripe. And here's why...



GusPolinski said:


> Anyone dumb enough to repeat so costly an offense, having already lost an "eye" for the first infraction, deserves to be "blind".


----------



## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Aaaaanyway...
> 
> 1) Forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive, and any definition of forgiveness that requires rugsweeping is not only incredibly naive, but amazingly stupid as well.
> 
> ...


QFT


----------



## tawasum (Feb 1, 2015)

GP, I agree with you that "Forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive, and any definition of forgiveness that requires rugsweeping is not only incredibly naive, but amazingly stupid as well". However, I did not imply "rugsweeping" my understanding of forgiveness is articulated here.

If my understanding of "I love you" means as long as you are perfect it implies that when you mess up my love is out the window. But my understanding of "I love you" means that when you have messed up, by the time you wake up in shame, I should be standing besides you ready with a bucket to help clean you! Even if we go around the world seven times looking for mr or miss perfect, we will NEVER SEE HIM or HER. Many who are looking for this fairy fantasy or Miss perfect when they themselves are not perfect sit back at the end of their lives with their past littered with a trial of marriages and divorces. 

Now what is forgiveness? When I forgive you it means that I have released you to start life again with no chains from you to the offense and I will never rehearse the offense again to you. When I forgive you it means that I will never hold it against you again. I will not bring the matter up to you again nor use it as leverage against you. I will not use it to manipulate or try to control you. When I forgive it means that the matter between both of us is closed forever. 
Secondly, when we forgive I am not going to around bringing the matter about your offense to others. There is not going to be any slander or gossip about this. There should be no reason for me to tell anyone about it. Once I forgive you, it is over! The offense is thrown away. Forgiveness is not forgetting! Shall I remember? Of course yes but I choice not to entertain the thought!
When I forgive you it means I will not freeze frame the offense or abuse and focus on it day in and day out. Forget the preachers and the counselors who try to dig up your past! Every human being has the right to live without the pain of the past! And forgiveness like I have described is the best gift you can give the offender and the best medicine the offended can take for his or her healing. Forgiveness is like Chemotherapy I take it for MYSELF. When you refuse to let go but continue to refresh the wound of the offense by perpetually going back to it and replaying it in your mind, you eventually become bitter and everything around you is bitter because your outlook of life is through the frame of the bitterness
So when someone is asking you for forgiveness and you accept to forgive, you are not pushing it under the rug, you are literally saying as much as the offense has been done, you will not bring this matter to them again, you will not bring this matter to others and you will not bring this matter up to yourself again! It’s a choice you make and like the choice to take Chemotherapy it can do you MORE GOOD than harm. 

Forgiveness is grounds for reconciliation. Forgiveness offered offers us a new start in life. It’s the foundation of reconciliation. You can look at your offending spouse through the above glasses of forgiveness and say in spite of everything I want to be with you. I am not going to let anything you did get in my way for us to begin again. This is what our writer did and both parties have been healed. There are a lot more couples who have divorced and are bitter than those that have chosen to work it out! Those who have chosen to forgive, please have no regrets. Those who are still trying to please find a place in your heart and truly forgive as I have described and you will find rest for your heart. If no, no hard feelings, it has worked for some of us—I have been married thirty one years—and it worked every time! The fun about it is like Goofy we mess up and laugh at one another and love one another and help one another. We are best friends in spite of our mistakes!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Infidelity, not a mistake. Reconciliation also takes repentance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Infidelity, not a mistake. Reconciliation also takes repentance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And atonement.


----------



## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

update us, Alpine. I wish the best for you.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> She needs to be aware that her inattentive behavior towards heavy lifting is tantamount to still cheating on you and destroying her marriage. She has not been made aware of just how dangerous her flippant attitude towards your timeline really is.


:iagree:




ConanHub said:


> HJ. How did she convince you of the details?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good question CH! 

When I first lifted the rug a couple of years ago this was a big need for me. I felt that I finally needed to “know” (to the degree possible) really what happened with OM2. This all happened before the age of cell phones and email so I did not have some of the more common sources of information that others use here when uncovering affairs. There has never been anything written on the PA events that I could uncover. 

She has periodically kept a journal throughout the years I have known her. Her journal for that time period had a gap in it for 3 months from the fall through mid-January. The day of the PA encounter was sometime in early December. Such a journaling gap is not unusual for her from back then, but this one may have been tied to what was happening with the EA/PA. There is nothing about the actual PA events written in the journal. She did write about having to tell him to back off more than once and about some of her inner emotional struggles with ending the EA while still working together.

Thus, I am really left with her spoken words on this. Even though some painful details did change over time, she has been unwavering on the fact intercourse never came close to happening. This includes her original story told to me the night of the day when it happened and through all of the many talks that we have had on this in the past couple of years. All of my reading on TAM has left me with a deep sense of skepticism about cheaters’ accounts of events in general. But given all that I know and how she has responded to each question, I do have a strong sense that she has told me the truth.

Her story makes sense to me with what I know of her and what I think to have been the time and place. It was December (cold) outside and in a place where they were somewhat worried about being discovered. She has always held a notion that certain kinds of sexual acts are more intimate than others (the source of many threads here on TAM as I’ve seen). She claims that avoiding the more intimate acts was central in her mind during that event, while still wanting to please him (she has even said that she felt that she “owed” him something; the old sex for attention discussion). Thus her details make sense to me. She even offered that we could try and find a contact for her AP for me to ask him. I declined that, not feeling like I want to see him ever again. 

We have talked a lot about the affair and the physical encounter. Post-fog she contends that she was in love with the attention, admiration, and acceptance (three As) – not with OM2. Back then these were so intertwined that she thought her warm feelings were for that person. Now when she talks about the kind of person he was and how little they had in common in many ways she claims to realize that it was those 3 As rather the OM2 himself that mattered. When she drove up to where they had the physical encounter and when they began kissing it was all about the 3 As she was getting from him, not a physical attraction. From her telling, the initial physical interactions (kissing, hugging) made her very uncomfortable and she knew that she did not want it to go further. But that conflicted with her desire to please him and not disappoint that source of her 3 As. According to her our marriage and wedding vows were nowhere on the radar until after it was done. 

Aside from these affairs she has been very honest with me (AFAIK). In fact, her open honesty was one thing that originally attracted me (cue the sighs of irony). We travelled a lot in remote places in the world before the affairs and even in situations where a small fib would have been useful (“no officer, we’re not going to hike into that area closed to foreigners”) – she seemingly could not be deceptive. I do still believe that is her fundamental character. Do I have niggling doubts about what I’ve been told? Sure I do from time to time. That remains one of the challenges of trust and forgiveness that I face. But I will say that those doubts have grown less loud and consuming over the past year. She does not hesitate to answer my questions when I ask them (verbally) and is mostly patient about recovering ground that has been plowed many times before (something I would not have said a year ago).

I know that in order for me to move forward I must come to accept that (1) “it” happened… and that (2) I may never have irrefutable proof of what “it” really was. Twenty years ago I was convinced that I could do that (1) and live with that (2). Two years ago I was no longer feeling that way. Through much pain and grief I think I am finding my way back to that acceptance.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then the real question is why doesn't she care enough about you to do what you need?


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

turnera said:


> Then the real question is why doesn't she care enough about you to do what you need?












One of the million dollar questions. As always Tunera you cut right to the heart of things. I'm going to quote you tonight when we talk.


----------



## Alpine (Mar 23, 2014)

tawasum said:


> GP, I agree with you that "Forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive, and any definition of forgiveness that requires rugsweeping is not only incredibly naive, but amazingly stupid as well". However, I did not imply "rugsweeping" my understanding of forgiveness is articulated here.
> 
> If my understanding of "I love you" means as long as you are perfect it implies that when you mess up my love is out the window. But my understanding of "I love you" means that when you have messed up, by the time you wake up in shame, I should be standing besides you ready with a bucket to help clean you! Even if we go around the world seven times looking for mr or miss perfect, we will NEVER SEE HIM or HER. Many who are looking for this fairy fantasy or Miss perfect when they themselves are not perfect sit back at the end of their lives with their past littered with a trial of marriages and divorces.
> 
> ...


Thank you Tawasum for taking the time to post your perspectives here. I do agree with a good deal of what you have posted. My W has put up with a boatload of my imperfections over many years. And I love her very much - all of her. She made some terrible choices in the past and hurt me (us) tremendously. I remain stubbornly hopeful that we can heal from this (with reality checks on what it takes from her end from Tunera, CH and others here). She is doing more to help this as time passes but I feel I will need an answer to my (and others' here) question on why this has been so slow in coming.

I do not think I would ever get to a forgiveness such as you describe. I cannot imagine a place where I would be able to put this so thoroughly behind me that it would never come up in thought or conversation between us. I do not want it to be frequent or significant in the long run, but honestly it has been such a life-changing event that it will always be there. Triggers will come (and hopefully not frequently and not with a depth of impact like now). My wife and I have talked about this and she knows that we will likely talk about this for a long time into the future. My goal is that it will not be a centerpiece or even a sideshow - but it will also not be gone. She is on board with that - knowing that it has been a set of important moments in our relationship that will come up from time to time even further into the future. I also hope that someday we can look at it more from the perspective of something we survived and forged a new bond from. I'm not holding my breath on that one but I can always hope.

Perhaps we are talking about similar things. Perhaps forgiveness, like many other things, exists on a spectrum in its day-to-day actions and as one heals one can gradually move toward a more complete forgiveness. I'm honestly torn as to whether I can or would even want to get there. Probably too much deep thinking for me on a Friday evening. 

Thank you again


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

tawasum said:


> I am impress with your story and I commend you for your unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness towards your wife. Many good marriages have been buried in divorce because many people do not know what forgiveness is and remain ignorant of the art for forgiveness. May they learn from your story! I do have this to say to our audience concerning the imperfect predisposition surrounding every marriage:
> 
> Unlike most unmarried people, married couples eventually catch up to the realization that successful marriages are not built on the backs of perfect people with perfect relationships but on the humble backs of imperfect people graduating from hurts, extending forgiveness, asking for forgiveness and loving unconditionally. Couples with long lasting marriages have attested and continue to confirm this truth.
> 
> ...



I have been married a long time. All that is written above yes, goes along with sharing your life with another human. Loving another human. My husband pulled the ultra betrayal on me, ((something we agree w each other that was just something we would not do to each other way back in 1982.))

I love my husband. He really is a good man. He really did "get lost" during his "mistake." He will be a wonderful partner to another women that comes into his life. He will also take care of the people in his present life, the rest of his life. He will live with sadness too and regret, but his life will be filled with living the present, instead of living the future as he always did. But living the future when he and I were building our life, is what will make it possible for him to live up to the man he really is. He wont abandon his people, he lost us from the affair. 

I am forgiving him, ((also a process)) but that doesn't mean Ill be able to share my life as a companion we were, again. 

I want him to have a good life. He was searching for something or he would have never had the affair. I didn't cause him to step out. There must have been things that made him dissatisfied within our marriage. I didn't see it as I was happy in our marriage. 

In our "new marriage" if that were to happen, it is now me dissatisfied in the marriage, bc I now am living with something I was completely clueless about. 


I dont want my husband to live with the "once a cheater, always a cheater" tag, but sadly in our marriage it is there bc it cant be taken away. In a new relationship for him, it wont be there as much, it will give him the chance to have the life that he was searching for within himself when he started his journey that led to his affair, because to come back to now a dissatisfied wife isn't any way for any relationship to survive... 

There are other ways to forgive and accept and love... I want his life to be lived in peace and harmony as well as mine, because for us, those were the days... 

~sammy


----------

