# Finding your "center" in an argument



## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Not really asking advice, just talking about something that makes me feel good. My wife is a very difficult person to argue with -- she's always right, she deflects everything I say, etc. And I'm not the most aggressive guy in the world. But sometimes when I just know that I am not in the wrong, and it's something worth fighting for I can "find my center," and it feels really good -- I get to the place where I can look her in the eye and firmly insist on what I am trying to get across to her, and not back down, and not let her push me off -- at these times I'm angry, but I'm not yelling or out of control, I'm just speaking from this place in my chest and my gut, and I get this feeling like "NO, you are NOT going to push me off my center. I am telling you what bothers ME and you are going to LISTEN and not MINIMIZE it." And this is always the most effective way of getting my point across, and when I get to that place, I notice that she often backs off and realizes my point, and I feel like I see respect in her eyes when I get to that place. Just a good feeling.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

To each their own. Having other people think I'm right never did anything for me. As long as their misconceptions didn't materially and permanently lower my standard of living or threaten my child's well-being, I couldn't care less for arguments.

This philosophy occasionally hurts me professionally, though, as my boss and my clients may interpret my lack of willingness to fight for a truth as indifference or low motivation. But it's just my personality.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Well you know, it's not about caring whether I'm "right." I let arguments go all the time where I think I'm "right." It's more about feeling like "I'm not going to be steamrolled here, I'm trying to address something important to me." I only get this way at times when what I'm trying to get across is really important to me, not, like "I did the dishes last time" kind of stuff.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

John Lee said:


> Well you know, it's not about caring whether I'm "right." I let arguments go all the time where I think I'm "right." It's more about feeling like "I'm not going to be steamrolled here, I'm trying to address something important to me."


I trust you that it's great. Apart from my child's well-being, I don't care about anything enough to assess whether I'm getting "steamrolled". So we may have arguments over health and occasionally discipline, but that's it.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Yeah I guess I grew up in a house where anger wasn't dealt with well -- it was either explosive or not expressed at all. It was seen as something dangerous. So it's good to feel like I can express it without blowing up and get my point across.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

There wasn't much anger at my household growing up, so I don't know why I'm so averse to expressing dissatisfaction. It must be a gene.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Maybe there was a lot under the surface in your family -- maybe stuff went unexpressed. It's one thing if you're genuinely not unhappy, it's another if you're just burying all of your unhappiness.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

John Lee said:


> Not really asking advice, just talking about something that makes me feel good. *My wife is a very difficult person to argue with* -- she's always right, she deflects everything I say, etc. *And I'm not the most aggressive guy in the world.* But sometimes when I just know that I am not in the wrong, and it's something worth fighting for I can "find my center," and it feels really good --
> 
> I get to the place where I can look her in the eye and firmly insist on what I am trying to get across to her, and not back down, and not let her push me off -- at these times I'm angry, but I'm not yelling or out of control, I'm just speaking from this place in my chest and my gut, *and I get this feeling like "NO, you are NOT going to push me off my center. I am telling you what bothers ME and you are going to LISTEN and not MINIMIZE it.*" And this is always the most effective way of getting my point across, and when I get to that place, I notice that she often backs off and realizes my point, *and I feel like I see respect in her eyes when I get to that place. * Just a good feeling.


My husband is surely not the most aggressive guy in the world either... I am pretty reasonable in communication and can admit my faults readily -even if I look bad.. and we think so much alike that this doesn't have to happen too often....though I can be tough to argue with at times...as I almost enjoy it and don't back down easily....this probably doesn't make me sound very good...

I like what you say here because with some of us women , especially with our less than aggressive men (and we know many times opposites attract)... *you NEED TO BE THIS WAY*, be firm, and speak it assertively...I can't say my husband has been as "you are going to listen to me now" in my face as what you have expressed here....but he will tell me what for.....and it's GOOD....
I DO so *respect* that ! 

Sometimes I even kiss him for it -cause I don't see that side of him very often and I LIKE IT ! He gives me a funny look when I do that...but that's how I feel ! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

John Lee said:


> -- and I feel like I see respect in her eyes when I get to that place. Just a good feeling.


Are you sure that's "respect" that you see? Listen, the reason I'm bringing it up is because I've seen other men who have written things similar to what you've written...

...and have ended up _divorced_. And angry. And confused. 

Marriage is not arena for EGO. It's one thing to say you're "right" about what time it is, or you're "right" about how much a certain item costs. But if you're insisting that you're "right" about _opinions_, such as how to "properly" make a bed (there is no universal 'standard') or that you're "right" about Einstein or Carl Jung was more "intelligent" (again, it's a matter of opinion), or how old a teenage girl "should" be before she starts to date, that's a slippery slope that you DON'T want to go on. 

And yes, *I'M* RIGHT about that!! 

Vega


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

Vega said:


> Are you sure that's "respect" that you see? Listen, the reason I'm bringing it up is because I've seen other men who have written things similar to what you've written...
> 
> ...and have ended up _divorced_. And angry. And confused.
> 
> ...


Nope, this isn't what I'm talking about.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Vega said:


> Are you sure that's "respect" that you see? Listen, the reason I'm bringing it up is because I've seen other men who have written things similar to what you've written...
> 
> ...and have ended up _divorced_. And angry. And confused.
> 
> ...


Funny how people see this differently.. I know nothing about this poster John Lee and maybe you are right even...though I can relate to what he says and see a GOOD thing in it.... depending on the dynamics of the Gentleman husband and the more assertive outspoken wife...(that would be us )


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

It's definitely not worth pulling out this voice over "you say I made the bed wrong but I didn't" or "we just went to your parents' house last friday" or whatever. It's more for times when she's really not hearing my needs, or where something she's doing is hurtful to me and she's not recognizing it, or things like that.


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I guess to give an example -- tonight we got into a fight because she was very dismissive of me. The thing was, she was legitimately very tired from a long day of work and then school, but I was tired from a long day of work and then childcare too. She snapped at me that I was "making demands" on her when I really was not. She basically told me that now with her work and school schedule, she was so tired that it was just a burden if I needed anything from her at all, but she was telling me all this in a very insulting and dismissive way, like I should just be fine with being last priority. I made it clear that I was not having this -- I made clear that I was willing to expect less attention from her on some nights (I already do), but that she had better not start thinking she can just give me nothing in the marriage in order to save energy for other things. At first she was angry and defensive and argumentative, but I just didn't back down, yet nor did I get out of control or over the top (when I do it just kills the chance of her ever hearing me anyway). I just kept making it clear to her that she was not going to dodge or duck my feelings on this - firm voice, eye contact, angry but under control. She went into the bedroom and closed the door, but after a few minutes she came out and apologized for real, and we made up, and I feel like I staved off a worse problem from developing.


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## James C (Sep 6, 2013)

To me, having an argument implies that someone takes an opposing view. If the argument is about something definitive, like what won best picture last year or who was the MVP in the AL, then the winner of the argument will clearly be established. 

But when you start arguing about who does more housework, works harder, parenting or anything subjective, I've learned the argument that's won is where you both come away with a perspective you didn't have before. 

A lot of that has to do with the way you argue. No name calling, don't diminish someone's feelings, sticking to the subject, not be demeaning, not bringing in the past etc... It's difficult because people generally go on the defensive. 

There are things we've argued about that I was 100% sure I was right about only to feel differently 5 years later. And if you take a holier than thou attitude, people will agree with you just to shut you up but will also hold resentment. That helps no one. 

I'm not saying any of that is going on, I'm just relating what I've experienced. When my wife told me ten years ago that I was always right, I changed my ways of getting my point across. I could sense the way I was arguing was counter-productive. All she came away with was the negative, nothing positive, which wasn't my intention. She is a great woman.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

James C said:


> There are things we've argued about that I was 100% sure I was right about only to feel differently 5 years later. *And if you take a holier than thou attitude, people will agree with you just to shut you up but will also hold resentment*. That helps no one.


Yes! That's because too many people argue with their EGO. 

This thread may have something to do with your "needs" OP, but you if tell your wife--even _calmly_--that she'd "better" do this or "better" do that, it's still comes across as a _threat_. You may feel smug as the argument ends and she might even "shut you up" by apologizing, giving you a kiss or even having sex with you...

...until she can't TOLERATE your strong-arming her any more. 

Like James C. writes, I'm not saying that this is what's happening in your marriage. But since it's a possibility, you might want to take a look at what you're doing and how you're doing it, a little more deeply before declaring yourself the "winner".

Vega


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## John Lee (Mar 16, 2013)

I understand what you and Vega are saying, but I think you're just not understanding the dynamic of my marriage. Typically, she is the forceful arguer, the one who insists she is right until I give in, etc. And I'm already the one who usually gives in. So for me this is about making a space to stand up for my own needs in the relationship, and it's very important to me. It's not about bullying her into submission -- if you knew my wife, you would realize that's pretty much impossible


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

John Lee said:


> I understand what you and Vega are saying, but I think you're just not understanding the dynamic of my marriage. Typically, she is the forceful arguer, the one who insists she is right until I give in, etc. And I'm already the one who usually gives in. So for me this is about making a space to stand up for my own needs in the relationship, and it's very important to me. It's not about bullying her into submission -- if you knew my wife, you would realize that's pretty much impossible


I interpret your posts to mean that you simply and clearly state your truth. It's not a matter of debate or winning. It is a matter of picking your battles, and when the battle is on, being able ensure your truth is clearly voiced.

My DH and I very rarely argue- maybe a few times a year. When we do, I'd say 90% of the time it is petty bickering and we can put it to rest quickly. However, there is 10% of the time when one of us "centers" and the other person is able to really hear/realize what the other person is saying. 

The time I will always remember from my DH was when he stopped in the middle of us bickering, and told me that something had really changed- of all the years he'd known me and lived with me (this spanned over decades as HS friends/platonic college housemates, finally bf/gf then married), he had NEVER known me to react to things like I had been. He told me he was having a hard time dealing with it, it was like I was becoming someone else. He didn't like it. His manner was frustrated but calm, quiet. He wasn't being argumentative or accusing me, he wasn't trying to shut me up or best me- he simply, firmly, calmly, and clearly told me his truth.

(I was 4 months post-partum, made an appointment with my dr that day, and promptly got a diagnosis of post-partum depression. Got on meds for a while and that really helped improved things overall.)

Personally, even when it's hard to hear, I appreciate it when my DH speaks up like that. It shows me that he is not willing to rug-sweep, and it gives me confidence that he will speak his mind. It means I can trust him to tell me the real deal. In our wedding vows, I called him "my most trusted adviser", and he really lives up to it in those moments. So I can understand seeing respect in your wife's eyes.


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