# The merry-go-round of life



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for this post, but here goes.

That guy who broke things off with me back in August has never really left my life. We still hang out, and we've been intimate on occasion. We're very comfortable with each other, and genuinely enjoy each other's company. If I could have him in my life in a greater capacity, I would because, despite some questionable things in the past, I care about him, and he's important to me and vice versa. 

Fast forward to yesterday, we had some conversation about "us"; he asked me if I felt that I'm too focused on where I want/need to be that I'm missing the moment in front of me now. I replied that there's nothing in front of me at this time, but that I enjoy my time with him all the time. He said that besides his family, I'm the only person he has an interest in hanging out and being intimate with, then asked if I still consider that there's nothing in front of me; and whether or not I consider that a relationship.

In all honesty, while I enjoy my time with him, I'm very confused by it all, as I'm the type of person who needs to know where I stand with someone. He doesn't want to label us, and for me to just accept things for what they are.

I asked at one point that if I went out with another man and kissed him, would he consider that cheating. He countered with, "if you're happy with what we have, why would you need to go on a date with someone else in the first place?" He also asked if I'd consider it cheating if he kissed another woman. Of course I wouldn't; we broke up in August, and in my mind, we've both been single since then. I think my response shocked him! However, I will be devastated when this does happen for him.

We seem to go through this mental cycle every few weeks. He'll see me accepting things, being happy with my life and moving on, and will bring up the question of: "why can't we try again?" Then, when I come around and am ready to try again, he'll hem and haw and say that he's not ready for a relationship, but likes what we have going.

Anyways, am I right to want (require?) and need more than what he has to offer, or should I just be accepting of things as they are, not label them, and just enjoy his company and see where it goes? I hate dating, and trying to weed men out of the dating pool, all while seeing more than 1 man at a time. It's just not something that's fun for me anymore, but I'm 40 and would really like to still have that family, even if it is in Step-Mom capacity; that's a role that I'd love to fill.

Okay, hit me up with advice or flogging!


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

You're just F buddies and that is all you should expect from him. If you want a different relationship you should really end all ties with this guy because having a safety net is holding you back from find the type of relationship/partner you want. I really have nothing against the situation you are in, but only if it became the relationship type you really wanted to have. If not, then you shouldn't compromise.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I should add, when I use the no labels or just accept things as they are speech it is because the woman isn't an ideal match for me but I want to keep an easy sex relationship going while I keep my options open. Basically, it's keeping someone as a backup plan.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

No flogging.



Ursula said:


> He also asked if I'd consider it cheating if he kissed another woman. Of course I wouldn't;
> 
> However, I will be devastated when this does happen for him.


This is a non sequitur. You should probably sort out these feelings and understand your motivation. Because, it IS GOING TO HAPPEN. If you don't consider it cheating, you should try to understand why you would feel the aftermath as if it were cheating.



Ursula said:


> Anyways, am I right to want (require?) and need more than what he has to offer


You are "right", if you want and need more than he has to offer. Just understand, that he's NOT GOING TO GIVE IT..... he wants things "loose", and to have a no-commitment relationship. You will have to find this from someone else.



Ursula said:


> I'm 40 and would really like to still have that family, even if it is in Step-Mom capacity; that's a role that I'd love to fill.


And, nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, being a step-parent is a noble and worthy aspiration. But, this guy doesn't want a "family"....he wants a girl friend with as few "strings" as possible.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

You're dismissing the obvious for some reason. He wants a very casual situation and you want more. This will not resolve itself. 

Why are you afraid to end this? Your current arrangement is guaranteed to leave you unfulfilled and I'm sure you know this.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Ursula said:


> Anyways, *am I right to want (require?) and need more* than what he has to offer, or should I just be accepting of things as they are, not label them, and just enjoy his company and see where it goes? I hate dating, and trying to weed men out of the dating pool, all while seeing more than 1 man at a time. It's just not something that's fun for me anymore, but I'm 40 and would really like to still have that family, even if it is in Step-Mom capacity; that's a role that I'd love to fill.


I'm wondering why you would even question this?

It's your life. You get to set the standard. That's not for anyone else to dictate, because ultimately, you're the one living with the choices.

You're not going to run into too many guys who're going to refuse casual sex or walk away from a person who's sexual available. 

When I read your posts, I've often wondered - are you even legally divorced yet? I don't know how much post or what you leave out, but you seem to have sex with every guy you go out with. 

My advice would be - just stop. 

'Dating' sites are no longer about dating. As BP wrote recently, it's about companionship and sex. So, IMHO, the behaviors that we're seeing are a few rungs _lower_ than prostitution.

And, of course, no man is going to say that, because, why would he?

You know what you want. Now you have to be brave enough to live it. And that means lots of men are going to walk away. But if they don't want the life you want, who cares?

The more you say no to what you don't want in your life, the strong you're going to feel and the more confidence you'll have in living your life your way.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

@minimalME - First off I agree with what you wrote. However, I'm honest and upfront with my intentions and if a woman says she's good with it but isn't then I'll break up with her because I don't feel like it's fair if she isn't getting what she also wants. 

I should probably say to Ursula that one of those women I was casually dating didn't like the casual arrangement and stood up for herself. We talked and both saw the casual wasn't working but liked spending time with each other so we decided cancel the casual dating and just be friends. Once friends we got to know each other better without the relationship pressure and we decided to date with commitment, and now we're in a labelled BF/GF relationship. But, this is not something I would expect in your situation with this guy.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Ursula you are in a codependent relationship with this guy.
You are afraid to move on and until you do you won’t be able to have a serious relationship with anyone else.Because you are hoping that he will come round and tell you that he wants an exclusive relationship with you.
He won’t get off the pot because everything is great from his perspective.He has a casual fwb relationship with you and when you even hint at moving on he questions your motives.He is guilt tripping you and you are letting him do it.
I asked you this before and I’ll ask you again.
Where the **** do you find these guys?
You are forty,if you carry on as you are you will be fifty in the same predicament.
Tell him tonight that you have decided that you want more than he is prepared to offer.Give him a couple of days then block him.
If he is serious he will get in touch but as it is he holds all the cards.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Ursula said:


> ... Anyways, am I right to want (require?) and need more than what he has to offer, or should I just be accepting of things as they are, not label them, and just enjoy his company and see where it goes? I hate dating, and trying to weed men out of the dating pool, all while seeing more than 1 man at a time. It's just not something that's fun for me anymore, but I'm 40 and would really like to still have that family, even if it is in Step-Mom capacity; that's a role that I'd love to fill.


 @Ursula, here's the thing: you get to require any darn thing that you require. I'm single and I don't date more than one man at a time and I don't date for the opportunity to get a free meal or go do something with someone. I date specifically to see if the person is long-term commitment material. I also require advancing levels of commitment gradually, because to me that indicates growth and maturity. 

YOU get to date as many men as you want, for whatever reason you want, as long as you want, requiring whatever you want. My only word of advice to you would be to *identify *how many/who you are comfortable dating, what you want out of them, why you want that out of them, how long you're willing to wait, and what are your minimum and ideal requirements. For example, you may want to marry again "one day" and that is a fine end goal, but you might say "I'm willing to date for a year but after a year if there's no move toward deeper commitment I will move on," or "At minimum I require mutual exclusivity and ideally I require growing commitment." On the other hand, maybe you want to date several men, have a variety of sexual experiences, and not really tie down to one...so a minimum you require safe sex, and ideally you require eventually heading toward exclusivity. 

Then, once you have your own requirements identified, don't try to make others "fit" your requirement...just keep fishing until one also has the same requirements. That is to say, rather than trying to make this guy, who CLEARLY wants a "no strings attached" easy-going sexual connection, be a committed guy (he just isn't--so accept that he is what he is)...instead keep fishing for a committed guy. 

See what I mean? Figure out what YOU want and why, and then stop trying to make others be who they're not. With this guy, either you go into it knowing this is who he is and he's not going to change and embrace that knowing you chose it...or you pick someone else.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Hi, haven't you been having sex with two different men recently and trying to decide between the two of them?

I'd think it would be hard to present yourself as someone looking for an exclusive commitment with the man you are posting about if you are currently dating and have sex with others.

For instance: If a man I was seeing was dating and having sex with other women, I can't imagine him even being energetically in a place to think I should be offering more to him than merely an in the moment relationship.

Sometimes you get from others what represents the reality you are living.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Bluntly you are being used. He knows he's not going to give you the relationship you want because he can't. You enjoy the companionship so you go along. He's getting all he wants you're getting a small portion of what you want. You know what to do.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> @minimalME - First off I agree with what you wrote. However, I'm honest and upfront with my intentions and if a woman says she's good with it but isn't then I'll break up with her because I don't feel like it's fair if she isn't getting what she also wants.


I appreciate and respect your honesty. I do.

I guess my problem with some of your posts is your use of language. 

Prior to your gf, did you actually date? Or did you just meet up with women to access sexual availability? 

And above you mention 'breaking up', but were you actually establishing relationships that you were breaking from? 

You're using relational language, but I'm not getting that you actually formed relationships?

You often post about how men can stay detached and uninvolved. That's not relational. Usually what I read you recommending is no more than a convenient agreement for sexual gratification.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Well according to feminists, casual no strings sex is what you should be looking for in the first place. As most women find out, it's not ideal for them. Sure is for men though. He gets sex with no strings, which is what men have always wanted in the first place. 

Stick to what feels right for YOU. If you want a real relationship with a man who wants the same, you wont find it anywhere with a FB. 

Drop this guy and go after what you actually want. You won't ever find it with him. Men have a great saying "can't make a hoe a housewife." Which is very true. Ladies, you can't make a FB a husband. It wont ever work.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Okay, getting to the big reply…
@Bananapeel, that's what I tried to tell him that we were awhile ago, and he insisted that his feelings are on a deeper level. However, I still believe this is what we are: FWB. He is holding me back, I agree. I'm also holding me back with my continued feelings for him. And good to hear your take on the "no labels" thing. I figured it was a manipulation tactic. And, that's fantastic that it's working out nicely with you and your GF! But I think you're right; it wouldn't work the same way with my ex. 
@TJW, the reason I'd feel devastated is because I obviously still have feelings for the man, even though I know that's not in my best interests. I know it's going to happen, for both of us eventually. My mind says that he doesn't have more to offer, but my heart hasn't listened so far because I keep getting sucked (suckered?) into this stupid vortex of emotion. Every. Single. Damn. Time. You're correct, he wants something without strings, and he knows how to sucker me in.
@zookeeper, no, I'm not dismissing the obvious; I'm well aware of that, but I guess I hope that I'm missing something, and that this CAN work out. It can't and it won't. If this keeps up, I'll keep getting sucked into his games until he's ready to find someone to get serious about. Then, I'll be the castoff. 
@minimalME, I agree with much of what you wrote, but am surprised that you consider me (and others who OLD) to be "a few rungs lower than prostitution". I don't dress ****ty, I don't stand on the street corner, and I don't take money in exchange for sexual services. How does that equate me to be lower than a prostitute in your eyes? That's a really low thing to say. However, what you're correct about: it is my life and I do get to set the standard. I just kept hoping that I was missing something or things would change. Of course they don't change though; I should know this by now. To answer your question: yes, I'm legally divorced at this time. And no, I don't have sex with every guy I go out with. I will get to the beginning stages of intimacy (i.e., kissing) if it's someone who I feel has possibilities of a strong match. If we go out a few times, and things are going well, then yes I'll get fully intimate with him. The sex in my marriage was awful, and I don't want that to happen again, so I need to find this out before too much time is invested on both parts. Yeah, I know what I want, but that's the question, isn't it: am I brave enough to keep trying and to live it?
@Andy1001, at this point, I think I could be the poster gal for codependent relationships, LoL! I am afraid to move on because there are still feelings there for this guy at times. Not all the time, but he knows which buttons to push. I know that I need to move on because I want to be able to be all-in with someone else someday. With the antics of this dude, that'll never happen until HE'S ready for it to happen. Then I'll be tossed to the side. He totally guilt trips me by asking what my evening/weekend plans are. I've found myself making excuses, and that's not right. Next time that Q comes up, I need to just tell him, I'm going out on a date, period. Where the F do I find these guys? This one was found on Match. 
@Affaircare, believe it or not, but like you, I don't date to get free meals/drinks/whatever. I go out with men who I have an initial connection with, and want to explore it in-person. Sometimes, the connection is still there, sometimes it grows, often it fizzles. I also want advancing levels of commitment; who doesn't?! Honestly, I'm comfortable with more than 1 man if it's kept very casual. Once it starts to get deeper, more physical, more emotional, I'm comfortable dating only one man. So lately, I haven't been overly comfortable, which is why I've cracked down on the online stuff and won't go out with someone I see no point in going out with. The man who this post is about is different than those in that we already know each other, there's a comfort level there. But, it's not healthy and I know that. Good thoughts: accept him for who he is. And who he is, isn't the type of man I need/want to be with. 
@Livvie, I have slept with 2 different men who I met online. I've been out with both numerous times, and have since cut one of them loose; it just wasn't working. The other man is going through some health issues, and has been in and out of contact for about 3 weeks now. He's a pretty good match, but obviously isn't around much, which isn't going to work for me either. I do agree with you on the exclusive commitment thing, but part of having that is knowing that you're compatible in ALL ways. If I'm in an exclusive relationship, obviously I'm not going to sleep around, or entertain going out casually with others. Once I'm exclusive, I devote 100% to that one man.
@happyhusband0005, yep, I'm being used, and yep, I know what to do!
@TheDudeLebowski, no strings, sexual "relationships" is what most men that I've come across seem to want. They've put good faces on online, but once we meet in-person and through continued texting, it's pretty apparent what they want. I've cut many of them loose. This dude seems to have a hold on me though, but that's a cycle I have to break. I dig your saying! Another good one is "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free". That's what I've been: free milk. Yay.

At this point, I almost look forward to the next time dude asks me why we can't try again. Next time, I'll be strong and stick to my guns. I feel better equipped now to not let him get to me. He holds all the cards at this point, and he knows which ones to play to get my goat. I need to be done with this, and I need to get my sanity back so that I have something to offer to someone else.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ursula, this man is useless to you. He wants you to only want him, but he doesn't want to make a commitment. He wants to be a cake eater. You need to cut him loose. Because even though he wants to cake eat, he doesn't want to share his cake either! If you find someone you want to be with while still being entangled with this mess of a man, you are in for a rough ride when you try to cut him loose. I think you need to end things NOW... you already know you don't want him as your exclusive partner and since he is being weirdly possessive, you are much better off to let it go.

ETA.. oops we posted at the same time, lol


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

minimalME said:


> I appreciate and respect your honesty. I do.
> 
> I guess my problem with some of your posts is your use of language.
> 
> ...


I don't want to thread jack so I'll PM you.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Was this the guy who wanted to do recreational weed with you?

Can't remember.

Have you thought of expanding your horizons across the states?

For practical purposes dating within your own city, or city's close by is smart, but don't limit yourself.

I enjoy your threads, but have no experience truly dating outside of a relationship. I wish I could be of more help.

Married twice, divorced once.

Hubby 1: We became friends first (I was 16) Started hanging out every day. Started "going out" a few months later after I got to know him a lot better. Married a couple of years later. Kids. Married over 10 years. 13 or so year relationship. Divorce. 

Hubby 2: I talked to LOTS of guys online from all over the country. Music and general interest type forums. Met hubby # 2 there. He lived 1,000 or so miles away. We posted a little on the forums together, but once we started messaging, it was like instant emotional attraction. We just never stopped talking. Then phone calls, hours and hours. Got to know each other very well. Became very good friends. 

Within 3-4 months he was coming out to meet me. We agreed to meet with "no expectations" other then friendship. We were both very nervous and had no clue if what we felt "online" and on the phone would translate well over into "real life". Well it did. He never left my side. Moved out to my state to be with me. Then several years later we moved to his home state. We married within a year and a half and 14 years later we are here, happily married.

My bro met a gal who lived on the complete other side of the country. Went out to meet her, been together 16 years I think now. 

Hang in there Ursula. Don't settle for being anyone's second best, and don't settle for them being not what you truly want.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> I don't want to thread jack so I'll PM you.


Oh come on now, that's no fun. Share with the class. >


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Only if Ursula asks me to. It's her thread.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> Only if Ursula asks me to. It's her thread.


Absolutely, feel free to share any thoughts you would like to on this thread; I'm pretty easy going about that sort of thing!
@3Xnocharm, I couldn't agree more with your post, and yes, we posted at the *exact* same time!
@FieryHairedLady, yep, this was the recreational weed guy, although he's apparently not wanting to smoke it anymore, but thought that you could smoke the oil… Very weird, coming from someone experienced with that sort of thing. I've never done that, and even *I* know that you don't try to ignite oil. I have thought of expanding my horizons into different parts of my province (I'm in Canada, where weed just became legal on Wednesday).


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

minimalME said:


> I appreciate and respect your honesty. I do.
> 
> I guess my problem with some of your posts is your use of language.
> 
> ...


I'm going to post pieces and edit as I go because the dang computer keeps refreshing the browser and wiping out what I wrote! I hate that this website often doesn't run smoothly.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for this post, but here goes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can’t tell whether you are leading him on (from the way your conversations go) or whether he wants his cake and eat it too (from your thinking). The two are not in sync.
Not knowing your history, it’s difficult to comment.
Can’t you discuss what it is you both want straight up, without the games? 
But tbh, I have no idea how the current dating scene works. In my days, we used to date one person at a time, IIRC. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He wants you available at his convenience. No strings. If you're comfortable with that, fine. If not, you know what to do.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I asked at one point that if I went out with another man and kissed him, would he consider that cheating. He countered with, "if you're happy with what we have, why would you need to go on a date with someone else in the first place?" He also asked if I'd consider it cheating if he kissed another woman. Of course I wouldn't; we broke up in August, and in my mind, we've both been single since then. I think my response shocked him! However, I will be devastated when this does happen for him.



Skimming through comments...Maybe I misunderstood your post? The above paragraph: that you wouldn’t consider it cheating if he kissed another woman while you two are seeing each other (and his reaction being that of shock), implies (to me) that you are the one taking this relationship less seriously than him, or have I misunderstood it?
But then you say you need to know where you stand. So I’m not sure.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Ursula said:


> @minimalME, I agree with much of what you wrote, but am surprised that you consider me (and others who OLD) to be "a few rungs lower than prostitution". I don't dress ****ty, I don't stand on the street corner, and I don't take money in exchange for sexual services. How does that equate me to be lower than a prostitute in your eyes? That's a really low thing to say. However, what you're correct about: it is my life and I do get to set the standard. I just kept hoping that I was missing something or things would change. Of course they don't change though; I should know this by now. To answer your question: yes, I'm legally divorced at this time. And no, I don't have sex with every guy I go out with. I will get to the beginning stages of intimacy (i.e., kissing) if it's someone who I feel has possibilities of a strong match. If we go out a few times, and things are going well, then yes I'll get fully intimate with him. The sex in my marriage was awful, and I don't want that to happen again, so I need to find this out before too much time is invested on both parts. Yeah, I know what I want, but that's the question, isn't it: am I brave enough to keep trying and to live it?.


I don't know you, so my post is more a commentary on society in general, but still, yes, I do think modern dating behaviors are worse than prostitution.

Just for reference/fun, I looked up how much a prostitute would earn in an evening. One evening. One sexual encounter. Around $500, depending.

So, a guy asks you out for coffee, or drinks, or an appetizer. Or even a nice dinner. 

You don't know him. He's a stranger. 

He's not risked anything at all, and he's offered you so, very little. 

If you're both attracted to each other, perhaps you end up having sex. Whether it's this night or the second or the third - it really makes no difference.

So, based on a little attraction and probably a lot of fantasy and hope, he bought you (he paid what you required) for about a 1/4 (being generous) of what a prostitute would've made.

It has nothing to do with the way you dress or where you meet him. It's about behavior. You've given him one of your most valuable assets (if not the most valuable), and he's given you _nothing_.

So, my point is, it's not an equal exchange, and women are the ones being shorted. You've given him your body, but he's not given you devotion or protection. He's not given up his independence. He doesn't even know if he wants to talk to you tomorrow.

You're not getting what you want from 'dating' and being online, but the men you're meeting are.

Put yourself first. Make sure that whoever you allow into life deserves to be there. Make sure they're rising to your standard and adding to your life. Wait. Be patient. Make them prove their interest.

Are you brave enough? Absolutely.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

minimal, that is an outdated viewpoint on sexuality in women, based on how things are today. Modern feminists would argue that women should be able to have sex with any agreeable partner without guilt or expectations. However, I do agree with you that it has changed society and for the worse, even though I benefit from the arrangement. The modern thought is that sex is not valuable nor an asset that is negotiated or it puts women at a disadvantage in society as they aren't being treated equally to men.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I am not sure I agree with all of these "that guy is using you" statements. In case anyone is paying attention, it takes two to tango. And in today's world the woman has just as much, if not more say than the man does. So that "he is using you" stuff just doesn't cut it. Unless of course you subscribe the woman as the weaker sex theory that is continuously disproven in the modern world.

Ursula, you seem to be trying to live in two worlds which is the source of your despair. If you just want sex, there is nothing wrong with that. And your certainly would not be "two rungs below a prostitute if you do" Some people just enjoy sex and do not need the relationship to make it happen. If you want a relationship, that is fine as well. Some people need to be connected in order to enjoy sex. 

My point is that it doesn't matter what you want, as long as you are open and honest about it. Right now, I am in between FBs. While at times, I would enjoy being in a relationship, whenever I am, I find I am not really happy and feel constrained. Other times, I feel like just having sex and the FB relationship works just fine, for a while. It is usually when I am between FBs that I feel the "need" to be in a relationship, because honestly, life would be easier without having to "hunt". But then I realize that a LTR is not what I want at this time.

Just be honest, first and foremost with yourself and then with everyone else.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Bananapeel said:


> minimal, that is an outdated viewpoint on sexuality in women, based on how things are today. Modern feminists would argue that women should be able to have sex with any agreeable partner without guilt or expectations. However, I do agree with you that it has changed society and for the worse, even though I benefit from the arrangement. The modern thought is that sex is not valuable nor an asset that is negotiated or it puts women at a disadvantage in society as they aren't being treated equally to men.


Most often by women who do not subscribe to that POV.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Bananapeel said:


> minimal, that is an outdated viewpoint on sexuality in women, based on how things are today. Modern feminists would argue that women should be able to have sex with any agreeable partner without guilt or expectations. However, *I do agree with you that it has changed society and for the worse, even though I benefit from the arrangement*. The modern thought is that sex is not valuable nor an asset that is negotiated or it puts women at a disadvantage in society as they aren't being treated equally to men.


People are free to put any spin on it they like. The reality of it all stands.

And the bolded pretty much negates anything else you have to say.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Ursula said:


> I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for this post, but here goes.
> 
> That guy who broke things off with me back in August has never really left my life. We still hang out, and we've been intimate on occasion. We're very comfortable with each other, and genuinely enjoy each other's company. If I could have him in my life in a greater capacity, I would because, despite some questionable things in the past, I care about him, and he's important to me and vice versa.
> 
> ...


Does he date other women? 

He told you what he wants. He wants you, but doesn't want to live together. 

You want a husband. He is not going to be happy if you force him. You can force him. He really cares about you.

Why didn't you tell him the truth when he asked if you'd be okay with him "kissing" another woman? You might have been able to say that your boundaries would not allow you to continue dating him.. or something other than confusing the hell out of him with a lie. 

If you want to get married and you haven't told him that and talked about what when where why and how, it's seem like it's time. You know that you can't know if he is right for you, if you don't talk about things. 

Good sex doesn't mean good husband or wife.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> Skimming through comments...Maybe I misunderstood your post? The above paragraph: that you wouldn’t consider it cheating if he kissed another woman while you two are seeing each other (and his reaction being that of shock), implies (to me) that you are the one taking this relationship less seriously than him, or have I misunderstood it?
> But then you say you need to know where you stand. So I’m not sure.


Sorry, it's a really confusing situation, but you do have it backwards. My question to him was after a lot of talk back and forth with him asking me why I needed to put a label on "us" and why I couldn't just accept what he had to offer (a couple hours of time once a week; occasional bedroom romp; in his life but not actively involved in it), and be happy with that. In his mind, we were in a type of "relationship", and I wanted to get a feel for how serious he thought this relationship was, so I asked him the question you quoted. Last night, I had no idea where I stood with him, today, I know exactly where I am.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> @minimalME, I agree with much of what you wrote, but am surprised that you consider me (and others who OLD) to be "a few rungs lower than prostitution". I don't dress ****ty, I don't stand on the street corner, and I don't take money in exchange for sexual services. How does that equate me to be lower than a prostitute in your eyes?



I know I know! Not with you in particular, but generally speaking, at least prostitutes offer men sex in exchange for money, rather than for free.
The unspoken ‘arrangement’ for centuries used to be that the man treats his woman nicely, with respect, takes care of her (and family) and protects her. While the woman could decide when she feels ‘safe’ enough to offer sex to said man (reluctantly; we had to ‘earn’ it big time and show proper commitment).

Somehow, something happened in the brains of some of those women who became what we now know as the new wave feminists: they thought that if men have the audacity to demand sex with no other considerations/responsibilities, then why shouldn’t women want the same? (since they are supposed to be completely equalz).
“Take it, evilz menz, we are going to **** you back, with no strings attached, and we will even pay for the dinners ourselves while dating you as well”. 

Again, not saying this has anything to do with your way of thinking but a lot of ‘normal’ women got perhaps sucked into certain life style choices that actually turned out to be detrimental to their lives, in aggregate. Some perhaps didn’t realise this.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I don't know you, so my post is more a commentary on society in general, but still, yes, I do think modern dating behaviors are worse than prostitution.
> 
> Just for reference/fun, I looked up how much a prostitute would earn in an evening. One evening. One sexual encounter. Around $500, depending.
> 
> ...




Yes, I miss this way of thinking (more ‘traditional’?) in this weird day and age...

Though to be fair, $500 a night is not that bad (from a guy’s POV). Imagine getting married, losing half your assets straight away and stop having sex pretty much forever...This ‘deal’ makes very little sense too.
If I could do ONSs (which I can’t), paying for sex seems like a no brainer compared to never having sex again...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> Sorry, it's a really confusing situation, but you do have it backwards. My question to him was after a lot of talk back and forth with him asking me why I needed to put a label on "us" and why I couldn't just accept what he had to offer (a couple hours of time once a week; occasional bedroom romp; in his life but not actively involved in it), and be happy with that. In his mind, we were in a type of "relationship", and I wanted to get a feel for how serious he thought this relationship was, so I asked him the question you quoted. Last night, I had no idea where I stood with him, today, I know exactly where I am.



I thought I might have done, but because from the dialogue (that you wouldn’t consider it cheating kissing or going on dates with other guys, while he said that he only wants to hang out with you, besides his family), it seemed like you viewed it more casually than he did.

What does he actually say exactly that makes you feel like you are just his FB? You do know that you are the one who has the absolute power in this regard and can put a stop to this non-sense by just not putting it out too easily? 

It does mean you might loose a few guys quicker but at least it will be clearer who is just after sex and not prepared to put in any effort into any type of commitment. Plus you don’t have to ask them any uncomfortable questions: it will be pretty clear. That’s how it has always been done, why change it?


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

@Bananapeel

Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy reading your post, even though I don't always agree with everything you say. Glad you found someone special to share your life with!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I really do not understand where the idea that women are selling themselves short by having sex with a man. I can assure all of you that I have met plenty of women that are really just looking for sex and not a committed long term relationship. They are no more selling themselves short than any of you are. If that is what they want, who are any of you to try to shame them. 
Regardless, of what some of you claim, you are all just as guilty of being selfish as they are. So, you want a committed long term relationship, and you with hold sex or "wait" in order to achieve your goal (a relationship). Rather than shaming others, you should be celebrating them choosing themselves over anyone else's opinion. We all have the right to pursue our own happiness, that includes making choices different than our own.

And yes, BP, thanks for sharing. I enjoy your posts very much. Always insightful and spot on.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I know I know! Not with you in particular, but generally speaking, at least prostitutes offer men sex in exchange for money, rather than for free.
> The unspoken ‘arrangement’ for centuries used to be that the man treats his woman nicely, with respect, takes care of her (and family) and protects her. While the woman could decide when she feels ‘safe’ enough to offer sex to said man (reluctantly; we had to ‘earn’ it big time and show proper commitment).
> 
> *Somehow, something happened in the brains of some of those women* who became what we now know as the new wave feminists: they thought that if men have the audacity to demand sex with no other considerations/responsibilities, then why shouldn’t women want the same? (since they are supposed to be completely equalz).
> ...


Once upon a time a woman who had sex w/ no commitment was likely to wind up w/ a baby and no way to support it or herself. That is what has changed, not women's desire for sex.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Ursula, the people saying he won't come around are probably right but you have nothing to lose by asking him. He's right that you can plan so much for the future you never enjoy now, but you can also be so short-sighted you miss out on the things you want. The next time he asks if you can try again, ask him what that means to him, then tell him what it means to you. Tell him what you don't want to miss out on, and do let him know how much you like him but that if having him means missing out you'll eventually move on. It's not always easy to be frank about this stuff, but you don't want to wonder later what would have happened if you had spoken up. Good luck.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Bluntly you are being used. He knows he*'s not going to give you the relationship you want because he can't.* You enjoy the companionship so you go along. He's getting all he wants you're getting a small portion of what you want. You know what to do.


Re the bolded...he absolutely can, he just doesn't want to. And that's his right.

I wouldn't say he's using @Ursula necessarily but he _is _taking advantage of her feelings for him, and that is cruel.
@Ursula, this "I don't want to label things"and keeping you separate from the rest of his life is typical of this FWB thing you've got going on. Not wanting to "label"is code for "I don't want a relationship with you, but you'll do until I meet someone else." I dated a guy like this a few years ago. I called it off because I didn't want to be a secret. Kept apart from the rest of his life, like some secret *****. No thanks.

FWB rarely turns out well for the woman, as you can see already - you have feelings for him and they are not returned. Men (not always, but a lot of the time) are able to separate love and sex, hence they generally (again, not always) do better in FWB than women. Not many men would walk away from a woman who regularly delivers herself to him like a pizza, and requires absolutely nothing in return. 

You know this, deep down, but I urge you to call this off. Next time you date someone, don't sleep with them too early, give yourselves a chance to get to know each other without hormones clouding your judgement. Give yourselves a chance to build something real, with the foundation of a strong friendship first.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Once upon a time a woman who had sex w/ no commitment was likely to wind up w/ a baby and no way to support it or herself. That is what has changed, not women's desire for sex.



Of course desire hasn’t changed. It’s the attitudes that changed.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Ursula said:


> I'm sure I'm going to take some flack for this post, but here goes.
> 
> That guy who broke things off with me back in August has never really left my life. We still hang out, and we've been intimate on occasion. We're very comfortable with each other, and genuinely enjoy each other's company. If I could have him in my life in a greater capacity, I would because, despite some questionable things in the past, I care about him, and he's important to me and vice versa.
> 
> ...


without reading other posters comments, I don't see this going anywhere. Your man is happy because he has all he needs, companionship and a **** buddy. You want more in terms of commitment. I think this will not end well. If you are happy with just being someone he can hang out with, nothing else then fair enough but I know you want more, so this will end in pain for you. I would slow down on the contact, definitely stop sleeping with him, (that might be a test to see how long he will hang around), be his friend only and move on. How do you move on, go on dates asap, let him know that you are not that easy and right now you are letting him call all the shots. Take back some control.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

FieryHairedLady said:


> @Bananapeel
> 
> Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy reading your post, even though I don't always agree with everything you say. Glad you found someone special to share your life with!


Me too! I find a lot of wisdom and practical advice in your posts Bananapeel. Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights, they are beneficial to both men and women, I get the sense you really respect both. 

Ursula, girl...you can do better. But you won't, if you consistently settle for low quality.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

frusdil said:


> Re the bolded...he absolutely can, he just doesn't want to. And that's his right.
> 
> I wouldn't say he's using @Ursula necessarily but he _is _taking advantage of her feelings for him, and that is cruel.
> 
> ...


Ursula, please re-read this over and over. Sure, there are women who can do FWB or whatever and not get feelings but I don't think you're one of them -- and definitely not with this guy. He wants to keep things very casual and you don't. Could he change his mind? Someday maybe. Or maybe not. The question is how much time are you willing to invest to find out.


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

Spending time with him and thinking about this situation is keeping you from finding the man who will love you, love all of you, love your heart and all your imperfections and perfections. He will be a perfect fit for you and you to him. He's out there.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Bananapeel said:


> I should add, when I use the no labels or just accept things as they are speech it is because the woman isn't an ideal match for me but I want to keep an easy sex relationship going while I keep my options open. Basically, it's keeping someone as a backup plan.


Totally this. (although I wouldn't always say that it is a back up plan)

The quickest and surest way of sinking a FWB/FB relationship is to admit that it is a FWB/FB relationship. 

Don't get me wrong, women want FWB/FBs probably as much as men. But they are also programmed to reject such relationships when it becomes undeniable that that is what it is. 


And as far as 'back up plan', I wouldn't say that it is always necessarily a back up plan per se. Some times the FWB has clearly been my primary. It is that I know that we will not be riding off into the sunset together forever but I want things to continue as status quo for the time being.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I don't know you, so my post is more a commentary on society in general, but still, yes, I do think modern dating behaviors are worse than prostitution.
> 
> Just for reference/fun, I looked up how much a prostitute would earn in an evening. One evening. One sexual encounter. Around $500, depending.
> 
> ...


As a guy, I find this pretty dismissive if not actually offensive. 

I am not a predator. I am not a manipulator or a rapist or molester. I do not seek or obtain the services of prostitutes. I am not a jon. 

I only have sexual relations with people who are attracted to me and want to be with me. If we have sex, I am sincerely concerned with pleasing them and making it as exciting and pleasurable and satisfying as I possibly can. 


I have never lied or manipulated or lead anyone on. Yes I have had FWBs and swinging playmates and hook ups etc over my years but all have been completely voluntary and on the up and up. 

I have also been in a number of LTRs over the years that were legit relationships that didn't work out. some of them I ended but most broke up with me. 

So I do not feel that it is fair to paint a picture that women are hapless victims to men seeking casual hook ups and that they are being victimized and exploited and that they are getting anything in return from sexual encounters and relationships that they are consensually and knowingly dropping their knickers for. 

If @Usula wants more from this relationship than what she is getting, then she has the right to ask for more and if he is not ready, willing and able to provide what she wants to remain in this relationship, then she is fully within her right to dissolve it. 

But let's not pretend that she is in any way shape or form being used, victimized or exploited here!!

She is 40 frick'n years old and can date, screw, marry or dump whoever she darn well pleases. If some dude makes her jay-jay wet and he is consenting, she can climb on him and ride him like a stolen horse if she wants. If it was good and she wants to come back for seconds she can. 

But if it gets to a point where either she or him no longer wish to move the relationship further, they each have the right to walk away. 

And if he wants to keep up the sexual aspect but doesn't want to further the relationship into deeper territory, that is his right. 

If that isn't good enough for her, it is in her right to terminate the relationship. 

But if the sex was good for her and she wanted to do it and she dug it while it was happening - let's not put on a pity party for her that she as a grown woman "gave up what was most valuable of her" and got nothing in return. 

That is simply a gross and disgusting thing to say about both men and women. 


We are all sexual beings and as a sane, sober adult, we all have the right to express our sexualities in the moment however we see fit and not make it into a commercial product.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hear here!

Thank you. I didn't have the words. I was afraid I would be misunderstood, since I do not do FWB/FB. I have understood others intentions and needs, as I have them myself. I just can't bring myself to do it... that way(FWB/FB). 





oldshirt said:


> As a guy, I find this pretty dismissive if not actually offensive.
> 
> I am not a predator. I am not a manipulator or a rapist or molester. I do not seek or obtain the services of prostitutes. I am not a jon.
> 
> ...


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

oldshirt said:


> As a guy, I find this pretty dismissive if not actually offensive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hell yes and more. Just WOW. I have followed and loved most of @minimalME ‘s posts but this one really threw me for a loop!

#dang!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Hell yes and more. Just WOW. I have followed and loved most of @minimalME ‘s posts but this one really threw me for a loop!
> 
> #dang!
> 
> ...




Yeah that’s all well and good but Ursula’s post and dissatisfaction with the state of the relationship kinda proves that this set up is not really working for her. And many other posts and stories on TAM prove that casual sex is not really in women’s best interest. I have never met a woman that enjoys that kind of life style (in the long run) either.
I’m a guy and I don’t think I would enjoy it. I don’t believe in no sex before marriage however I do believe in ‘no sex before you are both emotionally ready’. You are supposed to get to know each other properly first and then have sex, to solidify the bond. These days, it’s the opposite: you have sex in order to get to know each other. It doesn’t seem right.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah that’s all well and good but Ursula’s post and dissatisfaction with the state of the relationship kinda proves that this set up is not really working for her. And many other posts and stories on TAM prove that casual sex is not really in women’s best interest. I have never met a woman that enjoys that kind of life style (in the long run) either.
> I’m a guy and I don’t think I would enjoy it. I don’t believe in no sex before marriage however I do believe in ‘no sex before you are both emotionally ready’. You are supposed to get to know each other properly first and then have sex, to solidify the bond. These days, it’s the opposite: you have sex in order to get to know each other. It doesn’t seem right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I am celibate atm however it never ceases to amaze me that when a guy gets laid, they slap him in the back and buy him a beer but when a woman sleeps with a guy, she’s a ****. Wtf? 


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah that’s all well and good but Ursula’s post and dissatisfaction with the state of the relationship kinda proves that this set up is not really working for her. And many other posts and stories on TAM prove that casual sex is not really in women’s best interest. I have never met a woman that enjoys that kind of life style (in the long run) either.
> I’m a guy and I don’t think I would enjoy it. I don’t believe in no sex before marriage however I do believe in ‘no sex before you are both emotionally ready’. You are supposed to get to know each other properly first and then have sex, to solidify the bond. These days, it’s the opposite: you have sex in order to get to know each other. It doesn’t seem right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think you need to emphasize THIS, as in this particular relationship is not working out the way she would like. Otherwise, she and many, many other women actually enjoy this exact type of relationship. 
Believe it or not, everyone does not want to be in a committed, monogamous relationship. There are probably just as many women as there are men looking for exactly that type of set up. Many have them have tried to go the "committed" route, to their dissatisfaction. 
After having been in one and having raised children and devoting their lives to one, they are now interested in exploring their sexuality, which in many cases means multiple partners, some at the same time, some sequentially and a few ONS. The broader their experience the more they enjoy it. It is all part of finding out who they are and what they want. Some women, live this life their entire life.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I am celibate atm however it never ceases to amaze me that when a guy gets laid, they slap him in the back and buy him a beer but when a woman sleeps with a guy, she’s a ****. Wtf?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well it has already been established that at least prostitutes get some income from casual sex. 

I think it depends. And I don’t think this stereo type holds true anymore nowadays. Women will congratulate each other just the same while a guy who is known to sleep with anything that moves might be avoided. I think it’s situation-dependent.
But why stray from Ursula’s case: where do you think this is going? (If their relationship is as she describes). She said she wanted to have a family in one capacity or another. I can’t see how being a FWB will achieve this. Though it might.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Why must there be some monitory gain from having sex with someone?

If there is supposed to be some monitory gain from having sex with someone, why does that only apply to females and not males?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Why must there be some monitory gain from having sex with someone?
> 
> If there is supposed to be some monitory gain from having sex with someone, why does that only apply to females and not males?
> 
> ...




Dang...am I a feminist and just don’t realize it yet? 🤣


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> I think you need to emphasize THIS, as in this particular relationship is not working out the way she would like. Otherwise, she and many, many other women actually enjoy this exact type of relationship.
> 
> Believe it or not, everyone does not want to be in a committed, monogamous relationship. There are probably just as many women as there are men looking for exactly that type of set up. Many have them have tried to go the "committed" route, to their dissatisfaction.
> 
> After having been in one and having raised children and devoting their lives to one, they are now interested in exploring their sexuality, which in many cases means multiple partners, some at the same time, some sequentially and a few ONS. The broader their experience the more they enjoy it. It is all part of finding out who they are and what they want. Some women, live this life their entire life.



Maybe. It would be interesting to hear from actual women who CHOSE to ‘live this life their entire life’ and not ended up living it, through circumstances.
(We are talking about a female FWB, right?)

If I was a woman, I just cannot see what would be so great about having casual sex with me, with nothing else going on. It just wouldn’t work for me  (even with something else going on, I sometimes wonder how my wife can stand me).


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Why must there be some monitory gain from having sex with someone?
> 
> If there is supposed to be some monitory gain from having sex with someone, why does that only apply to females and not males?
> 
> ...




There is no ‘supposed to be’. I was just saying (joking actually) that it’s illogical to compare FWB to being a prostitute, ‘cos it’s not their job.

Fine, if someone is willing to pay to have sex with me, I might give it some thought...Somebody’s got to bring that hard-earned bacon 🥓 home  


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Dang...am I a feminist and just don’t realize it yet? 🤣
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You and me sister. Amazon-primed one of those pink hats, just in case there are any remaining confusions 
This feminism thingy is not going to exploit itself! 


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IIRC, you had a FWB situation while separated so it's not that you're totally opposed to that (hope I'm not confusing you with another poster). But you want marriage/children and you don't want to spend some unknown amount of time with someone who isn't interested in a relationship. So cut him loose (completely this time) and look for someone who wants what you want at this stage of your life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

minimalME said:


> Be as offended you like - you're entitled to your opinion.
> 
> *I find the hookup culture to be gross and disgusting.
> 
> ...


Agree. I think it's gross, too, and silently think, why bother since most women I might find could easily be from that culture. They won't ever understand me. 

I don't say it's a fabulous lifestyle either, but it is a choice she is free to make. I do understand wanting to have needs met and not wanting to get too involved. I think it boils down to her making those choices. However, I have not remembered her doing this time and again. I'm not saying you are mistaken. I simply don't remember.

It's obvious you care about her and at the same time are very frustrated she doesn't seem to get it. 


Sorry I presented my opinions so vociferously. I read you wrong.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I am celibate atm however it never ceases to amaze me that when a guy gets laid, they slap him in the back and buy him a beer but when a woman sleeps with a guy, she’s a ****. Wtf?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good thread starter, if folks can be civil.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I just don't understand the gross comments. What is gross about having sex? It is a natural thing that we are all (most of us at least) inclined to seek out and to find. Sex is, after all, the basis of almost every healthy non-platonic relationship there is. In fact, sex is the number one thing almost everyone complains about in regards to a relationship - too much, not enough, not adventuresome enough, unfulfilling, cheating, etc etc. Almost every thread on TAM relates to sex in one way or another.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm a "try before you buy" kind of girl. I've also enjoyed booty calls in my day. But for the long haul? Nope. My end goal has always been a mutually monogamous relationship. But I've felt zero shame in how I've handled my sexual romps. It was tons of fun. 
@Ursula unless I am confusing you with someone else, you want a long term relationship, correct? I just don't see how this will work out for you. He seems noncommittal and flaky.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> I'm a "try before you buy" kind of girl. I've also enjoyed booty calls in my day. But for the long haul? Nope. My end goal has always been a mutually monogamous relationship. But I've felt zero shame in how I've handled my sexual romps. It was tons of fun.
> 
> @Ursula unless I am confusing you with someone else, you want a long term relationship, correct? I just don't see how this will work out for you. He seems noncommittal and flaky.


I think the monogamy is most peoples end goal. The difference is how you get there. I do not see how anyone can think it is gross. You refused to settle and kept looking, which is what many people do. I know guys who said, after their divorce, that they were just out for fun. Then along came someone they decided was worth keeping. But they never would have gotten there had he just "waited" or thought it was gross.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah that’s all well and good but Ursula’s post and dissatisfaction with the state of the relationship kinda proves that this set up is not really working for her. And many other posts and stories on TAM prove that casual sex is not really in women’s best interest. I have never met a woman that enjoys that kind of life style (in the long run) either.
> I’m a guy and I don’t think I would enjoy it. I don’t believe in no sex before marriage however I do believe in ‘no sex before you are both emotionally ready’. You are supposed to get to know each other properly first and then have sex, to solidify the bond. These days, it’s the opposite: you have sex in order to get to know each other. It doesn’t seem right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't really disagree with the content of what you have said here. I doubt if many men or women would chose to live long term on nothing but a steady diet of hook ups. 

But can we at least give @Ursula the respect and dignity of a full grown, adult woman that has agency over her body, her sexuality and her relationships? 

If she is seeing a man that she is attracted to and wants to jump his bone and they are both responsible, respectful, consenting adults - why shouldn't they!!!

And as they spend time together and get to know each other and develop their relationship, if she finds that the relationship is not going in the direction she wants, she has the right and agency to dissolve it and move on in her search for what works for her. 

Dating is basically an interview and tryout/probationary period where people spend time together doing a wide variety of things together in order to get to know each other and see if that person is the right fit for them. 

If one or the other finds it is not the right fit, they have full right to end the interview and probationary period. 

She dug this guy. He dug her. They were attracted to each other. They got it on. Both had a nice time with their clothes on the floor. He is good with just maintaining this relationship as a FWB scenario. She wants more and is not satisfied with it long term. 

She has the right and agency to go back on the dating market and continue her search. 

No foul here.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Elizabeth001 said:


> I am celibate atm however it never ceases to amaze me that when a guy gets laid, they slap him in the back and buy him a beer but when a woman sleeps with a guy, she’s a ****. Wtf?


This is kind of worthy of it's own thread, but the quick and easy answer to this is people do not admire that which comes easily and predictably. People admire feats that are difficult and which the outcome is not certain. 

Even the most unattractive, messed up, train wreck of a woman can hook up with just about any dude. Getting sex is pretty much the easiest thing in the world for women. 

Conversely, for most men, sex is often quite difficult and very unpredictable. 

As the old saying goes, "it's easy to be a $lu+ but it's hard to be stud."

It's a very rare man that can easily and predictably get lots of NSA sex. But it is something that virtually every woman could do without lifting a finger.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Getting sex is pretty much the easiest thing in the world for women.
> 
> .


My mom used to say, "Getting a man into bed is the easiest thing a woman can do. Getting him to do what you want once you get him there is the hardest." LOL :-D


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I don't really disagree with the content of what you have said here. I doubt if many men or women would chose to live long term on nothing but a steady diet of hook ups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sure, but I’m not sure I understand what people mean by ‘agency’: if she was pressured by her BF into having sex with him and gave in, even though she actually wanted something more serious from the relationship first (or hoped she would obtain it later): what does it say about one’s agency?
Anyway, I read threads from a number of women who entertain a life style, I am not completely certain they themselves want or even like. Maybe I am wrong but it seems like perhaps they worry guys otherwise won’t like them or that’s what guys want? Or they will otherwise miss out? I partly blame feminism for this...Of course men will encourage this because it suits them...

There’s a balance. And I’m thinking about my daughter: obviously I don’t want to bring her up so that she’s too fussy/difficult/high maintenance for men but also not easy to let guys take advantage of her too soo (and they do take advantage, if you let them).


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"
Elizabeth001 said:
Original Post
I am celibate atm however it never ceases to amaze me that when a guy gets laid, they slap him in the back and buy him a beer but when a woman sleeps with a guy, she’s a ****. Wtf? "

I'm going to ignore and dismiss the long BS Laden answer you got to this question of the thread. Get can be answered with one word.

Hypocrisy.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah that’s all well and good but Ursula’s post and dissatisfaction with the state of the relationship kinda proves that this set up is not really working for her. And many other posts and stories on TAM prove that casual sex is not really in women’s best interest.


Ok, ladies, you have your mansplaination, you may stop your futile attempts to decide for yourselves.


> I have never met a woman that enjoys that kind of life style (in the long run) either.


 In the long run I didn't enjoy playing Hide and Go Seek. Guess I shouldn't have done that when I was 5. If you want another comparison, I enjoy being a homeowner but there was a time when that wasn't going to work and I rented a place to live. Of course there are also people who never own real estate and are happy with it.


> I’m a guy and I don’t think I would enjoy it. I don’t believe in no sex before marriage however I do believe in ‘no sex before you are both emotionally ready’. You are supposed to get to know each other properly first and then have sex, to solidify the bond.


If this works for you, I'm glad you realized it and wish you happiness with it.(really). Some other people would stone you to death for condoning premarital sex(really). I'm curious who decides what we're "supposed" to do and why we should care.


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## Violet28 (Oct 4, 2018)

Ursula said:


> Fast forward to yesterday, we had some conversation about "us"; *he asked me if I felt that I'm too focused on where I want/need to be that I'm missing the moment in front of me now*. I replied that there's nothing in front of me at this time, but that I enjoy my time with him all the time. He said that besides his family, I'm the only person he has an interest in hanging out and being intimate with, then asked if I still consider that there's nothing in front of me; and whether or not I consider that a relationship.


Being secure in a relationship appears to be one of your needs.



Ursula said:


> In all honesty, while I enjoy my time with him, I'm very confused by it all, as I'm the type of person who needs to know where I stand with someone. He doesn't want to label us, and for me to just accept things for what they are.


He is unable or unwilling to meet this need.



Ursula said:


> I asked at one point that if I went out with another man and kissed him, would he consider that cheating. *He countered with, "if you're happy with what we have, why would you need to go on a date with someone else in the first place?" He also asked if I'd consider it cheating if he kissed another woman.* Of course I wouldn't; we broke up in August, and in my mind, we've both been single since then. I think my response shocked him! However, I will be devastated when this does happen for him.


He cleverly avoided answering your question and is trying to make you think that he is meeting your needs.



Ursula said:


> We seem to go through this mental cycle every few weeks. He'll see me accepting things, being happy with my life and moving on, and will bring up the question of: "why can't we try again?" Then, when I come around and am ready to try again, he'll hem and haw and say that he's not ready for a relationship, but likes what we have going.


He is indecisive as f*** and wants you waiting around for him. Also not meeting your need of being secure in your relationship.



Ursula said:


> Anyways, am I right to want (require?) and need more than what he has to offer, or should I just be accepting of things as they are, not label them, and just enjoy his company and see where it goes?


You aren't requiring anything out of him right now. 



Ursula said:


> I'm 40 and would really like to still have that family


This sounds like what you want. He is not offering this to you. He is hanging out with you and making use of your time and body while keeping his options completely open.



Ursula said:


> Even if it is in Step-Mom capacity; that's a role that I'd love to fill.


Does he have children? Are you hoping to be their stepmother? Is he 'letting' you help babysit them? Do you want to bond with children with whom you have no real place in their life? That's not good for you or the children.



Ursula said:


> Okay, hit me up with advice or flogging!


You are accepting less than you want and deserve. You are giving up what you want in order to have some small place in his life on the off chance he 'might' or 'someday' give you a commitment.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

^ your thoughts are golden, Violet!

I concur!


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well according to feminists, casual no strings sex is what you should be looking for in the first place. As most women find out, it's not ideal for them. Sure is for men though. *He gets sex with no strings, which is what men have always wanted in the first place.
> *




So, no men actually want to get married and be faithful to one woman?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Ok, ladies, you have your mansplaination, you may stop your futile attempts to decide for yourselves. In the long run I didn't enjoy playing Hide and Go Seek. Guess I shouldn't have done that when I was 5. If you want another comparison, I enjoy being a homeowner but there was a time when that wasn't going to work and I rented a place to live. Of course there are also people who never own real estate and are happy with it.If this works for you, I'm glad you realized it and wish you happiness with it.(really). Some other people would stone you to death for condoning premarital sex(really). I'm curious who decides what we're "supposed" to do and why we should care.



You people are funny. So being pressured by a guy to have sex with them is called ‘having agency’ while standing your ground and doing it when the woman is actually ready or on her terms is a mansplaination or hypocrisy that suppresses her agency....I think you may be getting your pink knickers into a twist or are you trying to sell me some dodgy real estate?
You really believe women get a good deal out of this?
I would genuinely like to hear from women who enjoy the casual sex life style or why, their whole life, and don’t use it as a means to an end (to eventually find a long term partner).
Of course it must be so amazing to have sex with men with no strings attached. After all, he can give you a mind blowing orgasmus 



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, no men actually want to get married and be faithful to one woman?



Most men do. But it’s not so natural (for some). And those ‘some’ will **** and make a disproportionally large amount of women unhappy (not all men will and not all women will be unhappy; I’m talking averages so no need for others to throw around uber-feminist vocabulary, just because they want to make friends with them). Ghengis Khan’s genes are present in 95% of the world’s population. I’m not sure I am happy about it 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> I'm curious who decides what we're "supposed" to do and why we should care.



Nobody decides. However why in the **** would people get offended when risks are pointed out. Every action will, on average, cause a certain reaction. Oh I know, the PC society doesn’t believe in risk. 



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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Sure, but I’m not sure I understand what people mean by ‘agency’: if she was pressured by her BF into having sex with him and gave in, even though she actually wanted something more serious from the relationship first (or hoped she would obtain it later): what does it say about one’s agency?
> Anyway, I read threads from a number of women who entertain a life style, I am not completely certain they themselves want or even like. Maybe I am wrong but it seems like perhaps they worry guys otherwise won’t like them or that’s what guys want? Or they will otherwise miss out? I partly blame feminism for this...Of course men will encourage this because it suits them...
> 
> There’s a balance. And I’m thinking about my daughter: obviously I don’t want to bring her up so that she’s too fussy/difficult/high maintenance for men but also not easy to let guys take advantage of her too soo (and they do take advantage, if you let them).
> ...


This whole reply is predicated on the assumption that women are the weaker sex who need to be protected. In reality that is far from true. 
As to the "balance", rather than trying to raise your daughter to be a certain way, why don't you just raise your daughter to be her own person and allow her to chose with whom, and how many? I struggled with the same issue in regards to my daughter. In the end I concluded, that if I simply showed her that I loved her for who she is, and allowed her to become her own person, that she would make the decisions that were right for her.
Ultimately, she did, and to be honest they were not the decisions I would have made for me. But I am me and not her. So, she is now married to her HS BF, they have been together for 10 years. I would bet my life that both of them were each others first and only. I have grave concerns over this issue of inexperience and naivety, but in the end we each make our own beds to sleep in. This is the bed she made for herself. I hope she stays warm and cozy for all of her life, but I have my doubts (which I keep to myself)


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, no men actually want to get married and be faithful to one woman?





inmyprime said:


> Most men do. But it’s not so natural (for some). And those ‘some’ will **** and make a disproportionally large amount of women unhappy (not all men will and not all women will be unhappy; I’m talking averages so no need for others to throw around uber-feminist vocabulary, just because they want to make friends with them). Ghengis Khan’s genes are present in 95% of the world’s population. I’m not sure I am happy about it
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Sorry, that was a bit of overly subtle sarcasm on my part. I don't really think most men want to be with one woman. Men's avidity for pornography alone proves this to me.

Yes, there are very promiscuous women, but as I think you stated elsewhere, I believe women use promiscuity as a means to an end. I'm not talking about the 1-3% of women who genuinely love being fuh kdolls. I mean most women.

If I could wave a magic wand. Fairy tales would be forbidden, and from the youngest age, girls would be told that that stuff is all made up nonsense and that no man will ever *really* want to be exclusively hers sexually.

I suppose though, internet pornography is teaching girls the same thing.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> This whole reply is predicated on the assumption that women are the weaker sex who need to be protected. In reality that is far from true.
> 
> As to the "balance", rather than trying to raise your daughter to be a certain way, why don't you just raise your daughter to be her own person and allow her to chose with whom, and how many? I struggled with the same issue in regards to my daughter. In the end I concluded, that if I simply showed her that I loved her for who she is, and allowed her to become her own person, that she would make the decisions that were right for her.
> 
> Ultimately, she did, and to be honest they were not the decisions I would have made for me. But I am me and not her. So, she is now married to her HS BF, they have been together for 10 years. I would bet my life that both of them were each others first and only. I have grave concerns over this issue of inexperience and naivety, but in the end we each make our own beds to sleep in. This is the bed she made for herself. I hope she stays warm and cozy for all of her life, but I have my doubts (which I keep to myself)



I don’t believe women are the weaker sex overall but I do believe that some women are better or worse off in certain aspects than men, as are men (there are strengths and weaknesses that are more common to each of the sexes and there are reasons for this). I don’t subscribe to the ‘everyone’s equal in every aspect’. Clearly this is not the case.
When it comes to casual sex, I certainly believe women are worse off in this arrangement.
I also don’t see anything wrong with explaining to my kids why I believe that to be the case. It doesn’t mean she needs to believe me or take it onboard but there are reasons why people with more life experience tend to make less mistakes (ok, they make other mistakes instead..). But i think that thinking that imparting your values onto your kids means you are suppressing their personalities is a bit of a jump IMO. 
Anyway, the more interesting question is: do people believe you can get to know someone to determine whether they are suitable without sleeping with them too soon? (Too soon being before a relationship has been established).
What are the advantages for a woman to do this that soon?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, no men actually want to get married and be faithful to one woman?


I'm sure some do. 

I'll put it this way, you can take the most happily married man. When his buddy tells him "hey, I'm getting married to Lisa" his initial though, which will more than likely be voiced is "don't do it!" 

Single guys, married guys, happily married guys, when they hear their buddy is going to get married that is usually the first initial thought. "Bro, dont do it!" Then they turn around and they are happy for him. Happy he is happy. Lisa could be the best woman ever, and still men initially have that "noooooooooo!!!" Thought go through their head as a reaction to the news. 

What do you suppose that is?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'll put it this way, you can take the most happily married man. When his buddy tells him "hey, I'm getting married to Lisa" his initial though, which will more than likely be voiced is "don't do it!"
> 
> Single guys, married guys, happily married guys, when they hear their buddy is going to get married that is usually the first initial thought. "Bro, dont do it!" Then they turn around and they are happy for him. Happy he is happy. Lisa could be the best woman ever, and still men initially have that "noooooooooo!!!" Thought go through their head as a reaction to the news.


Well I've been single, plus married (both happily and unhappily), separated and divorced and I can't recall thinking "Bro, don't do it!" on hearing such news in almost all instances.

Likewise on the rare occasion, when I have thought that, I've never thought that and turned around and been happy for them, I've instead said "Are you sure that's a good idea? Blah, blah, blah..."


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Big ol' threadjack going on here guys... maybe go and start a thread about all this. Seems focus on @Ursula has fallen to the wayside, and I feel like she is being judged at this point....


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm sure some do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I will go one further. If I told my wife that there was an opportunity to have a threesome with two beautiful blondes (no idea why it’s always the blondes...) in a changing rooms (because that’s where threesomes usually happen ), I’m pretty sure she would not begrudge it very much and be quite understanding for this unique opportunity...What are the odds for a regular guy to experience this? Many go through a lifetime never experiencing this (I’m talking about beautiful women, out of the blue, and not ‘paid for’ services).
On the other hand, my wife only needs to walk to the nearest pub with the intention to get gang banged: the odds are, it will happen faster than she can pronounce the words.
Why do people suppose that is? (And where is the equality in all this?)


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Big ol' threadjack going on here guys... maybe go and start a thread about all this. Seems focus on @Ursula has fallen to the wayside, and I feel like she is being judged at this point....


I do not quite agree with the threadjack. After all one of the great things about any really active thread is that it meanders to and fro. Sometimes it gets back to the original topic but more often than not moves into all sorts of other topics.
OTOH, I agree that Ursula is being judged.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t believe women are the weaker sex overall but I do believe that some women are better or worse off in certain aspects than men, as are men (there are strengths and weaknesses that are more common to each of the sexes and there are reasons for this). I don’t subscribe to the ‘everyone’s equal in every aspect’. Clearly this is not the case.
> When it comes to casual sex, I certainly believe women are worse off in this arrangement.
> I also don’t see anything wrong with explaining to my kids why I believe that to be the case. It doesn’t mean she needs to believe me or take it onboard but there are reasons why people with more life experience tend to make less mistakes (ok, they make other mistakes instead..). But i think that thinking that imparting your values onto your kids means you are suppressing their personalities is a bit of a jump IMO.
> Anyway, the more interesting question is: do people believe you can get to know someone to determine whether they are suitable without sleeping with them too soon? (Too soon being before a relationship has been established).
> ...


No one ever said each sex is equal in every aspect. But that doesn't make one weaker, needing to be protected from being taken advantage of by the other. 
Yes people with more life experience do tend to make mistakes. They are called learning experiences. So unless one is born with perfect knowledge, I do not understand how one does not make mistakes as the live and grow. Unless of course, they are so afraid to make a mistake that they never take any chances.
In regards to your last question, the answer is moot. Sex is a basic element of the type of relationship we are discussing. While you may make a new friend by taking time to get to know someone else, if your goal is to attain a mutually satisfying sexual relationship with another, the only way to find out, is to find out. 
Typically when I find myself wanting to get to know somebody better before having sex, it usually means there is at least one major red flag that I want to get straight before getting involved with this person. Otherwise, if everything else is clicking, why not get to the point and determine sexual compatibility. Believe it or not, it is not a one size fits all proposition.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> No one ever said each sex is equal in every aspect. But that doesn't make one weaker, needing to be protected from being taken advantage of by the other.
> 
> Yes people with more life experience do tend to make mistakes. They are called learning experiences. So unless one is born with perfect knowledge, I do not understand how one does not make mistakes as the live and grow. Unless of course, they are so afraid to make a mistake that they never take any chances.
> 
> ...



We might be talking at cross purposes.
I don’t think I particularly disagree with anything you have written. We might be disagreeing about degrees.

My concern is with the whole FWB idea and ‘casual sex’ from women’s perspective: I do intend to make my views known to my kids about this. Which is: I believe there are far more risks involved for women than there are for men (on average) in this arrangement. They can do with this information what they like but I’m not going to sit there watching them making mistakes that they don’t have to make.

For example I would also tell the kids that eating broken glass is not such a good idea and if necessary, explain why (as an extreme example). There are certain things that are self evident to adults while they are not as obvious to kids. How far will you go to ‘let them learn their lessons’?



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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> We might be talking at cross purposes.
> I don’t think I particularly disagree with anything you have written. We might be disagreeing about degrees.
> 
> My concern is with the whole FWB idea and ‘casual sex’ from women’s perspective: I do intend to make my views known to my kids about this. Which is: I believe there are far more risks involved for women than there are for men (on average) in this arrangement. They can do with this information what they like but I’m not going to sit there watching them making mistakes that they don’t have to make.
> ...


The most apparent issue is that you cannot have a woman's perspective anymore than I can. My POV has been formed by real life experience. I have talked to women who absolutely enjoy that life style and I have been a willing participant myself in it as well. The reality is that many of those "beliefs" about risk are out dated and based on stereotypes of the past. 
There is risk involved in everything, but the risks associated with sex have been largely minimized. Women can take birth control to prevent pregnancies. Condoms greatly lessen the risk of STDs. Education and career opportunities have reduced the need for marriage. Women (and men as well) simply have less risk and more opportunity than they ever did in the past.
When one builds the foundation of sovereign, self governing human being in their children, they can sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Sorry for the delay; I take a computer/tech break on the weekends.
@inmyprime, what he does that makes me feel like we're just FWB is more his attitude towards things. He says that he's not ready for a relationship and commitment, but that he feels comfortable around me.
@Ynot, I do agree with you in that we're not really selling ourselves short by having sex. Physical chemistry is really important in a relationship and without it, a relationship will eventually fizzle and die out. I'm 40 and it's daunting to think of dating someone for 6+ months before getting into the physical to find that we're not compatible at all. I would rather know sooner, but not too soon. Getting to know a person a bit before jumping into the physical is what I would prefer.
@SpinyNorman, I do like your suggestion, and may try it. I trust him to a point, but I don't know if I trust him enough to be that vulnerable with him again. I'd be too worried that he'd get scared and bolt again. But, it doesn't hurt to ask if it comes up; if it doesn't, I'm OK with where things stand now. 
@frusdil, keeping me a secret is kind of how I've felt about our entire relationship, even when we were dating. Besides his son, I never met anyone in his life. He plays soccer, and I wanted to go see a game; he wouldn't let me go. He's capable of giving me what I need, he just chooses not to, and you're right, it's cruel to keep me hanging the way he is. And yes, that basis of friendship is exactly what I want first.
@aine, everything you say, I agree with 110%!
@oldshirt, while I do understand what @minimalME is saying about the prostitution analogy, I, like you, don't necessarily agree with it. It makes a person feel very dirty, and really just want to give up.

BTW, @minimalME, I post here to get thoughts and advice just like everyone else. I contribute where I can, but sometimes I'm at a loss of what to say. Just to confirm, I also find the hookup culture to be gross, which is why I'm not a part of it. I don't do ONS. I online date, I sleep with those that I feel a connection (or possible connection) to, and if there's no connection after that, it's okay. I stay safe, and use the pill and condoms all the time. If you usually avoid my threads and think I'm so disgusting, then why did you choose to reply multiple times to this particular one?
@Violet28, my exBF has "children": they're 16 and 19, and I'd have been happy to be their stepmom.

I went on 3 dates this weekend. Dude 1 was a 2nd date. Everything we talked about ended up getting swayed back to sex of some sort. And when we were parting ways, he pushed himself on me and forcefully shoved his hand down my pants in the parking lot, in front of other patrons. He's a little octopus, but a strong one at that. I met another for the first time; we went for a 12 km walk and I could've said it was the best first date I've ever been on. After us both describing and agree on the type of relationship we're both looking for: friends first, build that connect, he then also pushed himself on me, shoved his hand down my pants and invited me to his home and bedroom. I'm not sure if it's something about me that screams "use me", but 2 in 1 weekend was enough. Date #3 was with a man I've seen a few times, and who is a gentleman. I thanked him for this this weekend. He's a breath of fresh air, but is dealing with some health stuff that makes him not ready for a relationship at this time.
@3Xnocharm, it's all good, no worries, but thanks for standing up for me. In all honesty, my thread is stupid, and I don't blame the judgement. Everyone is different in their opinions on sex vs no sex, when is too soon, etc., and all of those opinions came across. 

This needs to stop, and I'm the one who has to do that no only with my ex, but with all the others as well. I've put a week-long "snooze" on my Bumble account, and will be changing that to an "indefinite" snooze soon here. I'll still continue to hang out with the one man (weekend date #3 above), and there's one more who I would like to get to know further, but if neither of those turn out to be someone I can build something long-term with, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. I feel easy, used, like a *****/prostitute, and I deserve more. Sure, I want a family, but I don't need a man to do that. What I DO need is a job that pays significantly more so that I can afford not only an adoption fee, but to raise a child or two on my own. So, I'll be polishing my resume, and will continue to apply for new jobs. I also want to do some work around my home and hit the gym more, and just keep myself as busy as possible. I'm back on Keto, so between that and the gym, I might see how far I can push this weight loss and muscle gain thing. I have a girlfriend who turned body builder, and that's something I can see myself doing.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I may have missed the "announcement" and I don't see it mentioned anywhere in this thread. So I will ask. Ursula - aren't you married ? Married women (and men) are not serious committed relationship material. Period. If you are now fully legally divorced then I understand your issue/want. If you are not - I don't. Why do you think a guy should consider you anything other than a FB at least for now/until your divorced ?


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## azimuth (May 15, 2018)

I would like to think of TAM as a safe space, where you don't feel shamed or judged. Hopefully some of the harsher responses only had your best interests in mind. You were only following your heart and doing what you thought was right. Take the negatives and turn it into a positive for the future. I do have faith that you'll find your guy, or he'll find you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Ursula said:


> I went on 3 dates this weekend. Dude 1 was a 2nd date. Everything we talked about ended up getting swayed back to sex of some sort. And when we were parting ways, he pushed himself on me and forcefully shoved his hand down my pants in the parking lot, in front of other patrons. He's a little octopus, but a strong one at that. I met another for the first time; we went for a 12 km walk and I could've said it was the best first date I've ever been on. After us both describing and agree on the type of relationship we're both looking for: friends first, build that connect, he then also pushed himself on me, shoved his hand down my pants and invited me to his home and bedroom. I'm not sure if it's something about me that screams "use me", but 2 in 1 weekend was enough. Date #3 was with a man I've seen a few times, and who is a gentleman. I thanked him for this this weekend. He's a breath of fresh air, but is dealing with some health stuff that makes him not ready for a relationship at this time.


OH my god! WTH??? I've been around pushy men before, but NEVER had someone do this to me, let alone TWO different people, hours apart! At least you were able to end the weekend with someone being decent to you...! I think you would do well to step away from men for a while, no one deserves what you have been getting.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

2&out said:


> I may have missed the "announcement" and I don't see it mentioned anywhere in this thread. So I will ask. Ursula - aren't you married ? Married women (and men) are not serious committed relationship material. Period. If you are now fully legally divorced then I understand your issue/want. If you are not - I don't. Why do you think a guy should consider you anything other than a FB at least for now/until your divorced ?


Good Lord no, I've been separated since June 2017, and our divorce is since finalized. And when I was dating when only separated, I like to think that men would think how I think: they're separated, their marriage is over. Yes, there's always a chance of them getting back together at that point, but those are things to discuss in full. 



azimuth said:


> I would like to think of TAM as a safe space, where you don't feel shamed or judged. Hopefully some of the harsher responses only had your best interests in mind. You were only following your heart and doing what you thought was right. Take the negatives and turn it into a positive for the future. I do have faith that you'll find your guy, or he'll find you.


I thought that too, when I first came here, and it was fantastic for awhile, and then as people get to know your online self, some tend to judge. I have been judged pretty harshly on here in the past, and I don't know, maybe I stopped caring or my skin grew thicker. Maybe I could just weed out the good stuff from the mumble jumble of harsh criticism that really doesn't help matters. Really though, I just take what I need to take from posts and leave the rest.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> OH my god! WTH??? I've been around pushy men before, but NEVER had someone do this to me, let alone TWO different people, hours apart! At least you were able to end the weekend with someone being decent to you...! I think you would do well to step away from men for a while, no one deserves what you have been getting.


Yep, one on Friday night, one on Saturday afternoon. Maybe I have something stamped on my forehead. And yeah, I'm pretty disheartened by this weekend (minus my friend on Sunday). But, I'm pretty done with it all. If this is the way "men" are going to be, I'm better off without them. I can still adopt and be a Mom, and hey, that's why vibrators were invented, right?!? >


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Reading your last post I hope you do re-prioritize your life. IMHO your priorities are screwed up right now and that is directly contributing to the quality of men you are attracting. Get completely legally divorced, job situation secure, feeling proud/good about yourself and home, and then consider adding a relationship. I'll bet you attract a different class of men.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

2&out said:


> Reading your last post I hope you do re-prioritize your life. IMHO your priorities are screwed up right now and that is directly contributing to the quality of men you are attracting. Get completely legally divorced, job situation secure, feeling proud/good about yourself and home, and then consider adding a relationship. I'll bet you attract a different class of men.


I am completely, legally divorced. I just didn't feel the need to put out an announcement about it. It's not something to celebrate; it just is what it is. I am re-prioritizing my life, as I have stated within this thread: finding a higher paying job, doing work around my home, working out more. I am proud of myself and the life that I've achieved, I simply want someone grounded to share that with, but apparently that's too much to ask, so I need to step back and attack life from a different direction. That's all; I'm not a bad person, I'm not being a negative Debbie Downer, simply I've just had it with being taken advantage of, and men these days seem to like to do that. Perhaps in my 50s, things will be better to try again.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

" went on 3 dates this weekend. Dude 1 was a 2nd date. Everything we talked about ended up getting swayed back to sex of some sort. And when we were parting ways, he pushed himself on me and forcefully shoved his hand down my pants in the parking lot, in front of other patrons. He's a little octopus, but a strong one at that. I met another for the first time; we went for a 12 km walk and I could've said it was the best first date I've ever been on. After us both describing and agree on the type of relationship we're both looking for: friends first, build that connect, he then also pushed himself on me, shoved his hand down my pants and invited me to his home and bedroom."

HOLY CRAP, is this REALLY what guys are like now a days, and (presumably) in their 40s? 
My mother would rise from the grave and beat me to death if I ever treated a woman like this.

Thank God I'm married if this is what modern dating is like.

Ursula, Really sorry you have had these experiences. Maybe you need to find a different source for your dating pool because NOBODY should put up with that type of behavior.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

jlg07 said:


> HOLY CRAP, is this REALLY what guys are like now a days, and (presumably) in their 40s?
> 
> My mother would rise from the grave and beat me to death if I ever treated a woman like this.
> 
> ...


I've met some who are pushier than I care for, but this weekend was the absolute worst I've experienced. I'm not sure if guys think that women are into **** like this, but it's just stupid. For most part, I'm really glad that my marriage is over, but there are times (like now) when I kind of wish it could've worked out. The ages of the weekend handsy dudes are 41 and 43. Maybe I do need a different source, or maybe I just need to give up on a lot of hoping and try to be happy on my own.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Ursula said:


> I've met some who are pushier than I care for, but this weekend was the absolute worst I've experienced. I'm not sure if guys think that women are into **** like this, but it's just stupid. For most part, I'm really glad that my marriage is over, but there are times (like now) when I kind of wish it could've worked out. The ages of the weekend handsy dudes are 41 and 43. Maybe I do need a different source, or maybe I just need to give up on a lot of hoping and try to be happy on my own.


Well, in general, I think you DO need to be happy on your own. If you are not, you will never really be happy with someone else -- YOU own your happiness and only you can provide that.
I don't think you need to give up on finding someone, but I think maybe you need to be happy with you before you can find anyone that YOU can be happy with. (wow, that's a lot of you's!) I really hope you do find places with a better quality of men. Those two are complete losers.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ursula said:


> I've met some who are pushier than I care for, but this weekend was the absolute worst I've experienced. I'm not sure if guys think that women are into **** like this, but it's just stupid. For most part, I'm really glad that my marriage is over, but there are times (like now) when I kind of wish it could've worked out. The ages of the weekend handsy dudes are 41 and 43. Maybe I do need a different source, or maybe I just need to give up on a lot of hoping and try to be happy on my own.



You never know...maybe these guys read the advice on TAM to ‘take charge’ more and be ‘dominant’ and not be a doormat 
Do you not have possibilities to meet men a different way? Maybe some of them misunderstand that an online date is not the same as affirmative consent to sex.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

@Ursula

This sounds too me like sexual assault! 

Can you file charges?

WOW!

Sorry you had such a terrible weekend.

Stay safe.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> You never know...maybe these guys read the advice on TAM to ‘take charge’ more and be ‘dominant’ and not be a doormat
> Do you not have possibilities to meet men a different way? Maybe some of them misunderstand that an online date is not the same as affirmative consent to sex.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:surprise: These men she is dating KNOW they are NOT her husband and have no implied consent to sexually fondle or molest her. 

!!!!!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> The most apparent issue is that you cannot have a woman's perspective anymore than I can. My POV has been formed by real life experience. I have talked to women who absolutely enjoy that life style and I have been a willing participant myself in it as well. The reality is that many of those "beliefs" about risk are out dated and based on stereotypes of the past.
> 
> There is risk involved in everything, but the risks associated with sex have been largely minimized. Women can take birth control to prevent pregnancies. Condoms greatly lessen the risk of STDs. Education and career opportunities have reduced the need for marriage. Women (and men as well) simply have less risk and more opportunity than they ever did in the past.
> 
> When one builds the foundation of sovereign, self governing human being in their children, they can sit back and enjoy the fruits of their labor.



You don’t need to have a ‘woman’s perspective’ to understand what the risks of casual hookups are anymore than you need to be a penguin to understand the dangers of being in a tank full of leopard seals. (I don’t mean it in a flippant way). I agree that some aspects may be outdated now (the no sex before marriage requirement is IMO one of them) but other values and traditions are still going strong, and they are going strong for a reason.
Not sure which women you spoke with who enjoy this kind of life style but in my real life experiences (and the women here on TAM), seem surprisingly quiet about it.
I’m not talking about risks of STDs of pregnancies but the simple truth of being used for sexual gratification, with nothing in return: it can’t be a nice feeling for a woman to wake up with this realisation in the morning.

There are risks for men too, I learnt from reading these boards, but those kick in more after marriage it seems.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FieryHairedLady said:


> :surprise: These men she is dating KNOW they are NOT her husband and have no implied consent to sexually fondle or molest her.
> 
> 
> 
> !!!!!




Talking about risks...
(You do know my posts are not always serious?)
I am sure @Ursula herself can tell the difference between a pushy date and sexual assault.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

FieryHairedLady said:


> :surprise: These men she is dating KNOW they are NOT her husband and have no implied consent to sexually fondle or molest her.
> 
> !!!!!


NOT ok with husbands either!! Sheesh!!


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

@jlg07, I should confirm that my life is good, and for most part I'm really happy with it. Sure, I'd like to make more money, but who doesn't have that desire? I'm a firm believer that a significant other adds to an already damn good life; they aren't the sole reason that life is good.
@inmyprime, I run a couple businesses, and through one of them I've met some people, but nothing more than just in passing. I also used to be in a concert band and met and dated a man from there for some time. Ideally, this is where I would meet someone, but would need to get fairly heavily involved in 2-3 things for that to happen before 50. The band man that I dated; we knew each other for about 5 years before we started dating.
@FieryHairedLady, I probably could, but I don't know the last name of either guy or where they live, plus it's probably not even worth it. I went out with someone I met online, knowing the risks (this is why I meet in public until I feel they are trustworthy). It's just that this time, being in public didn't much matter. And yes, staying safe is my main concern at this point, and this weekend has scared me into meeting anyone new.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> You don’t need to have a ‘woman’s perspective’ to understand what the risks of casual hookups are anymore than you need to be a penguin to understand the dangers of being in a tank full of leopard seals. (I don’t mean it in a flippant way). I agree that some aspects may be outdated now (the no sex before marriage requirement is IMO one of them) but other values and traditions are still going strong, and they are going strong for a reason.
> Not sure which women you spoke with who enjoy this kind of life style but in my real life experiences (and the women here on TAM), seem surprisingly quiet about it.
> I’m not talking about risks of STDs of pregnancies but the simple truth of being used for sexual gratification, with nothing in return: it can’t be a nice feeling for a woman to wake up with this realisation in the morning.
> 
> ...


Actually those "values and traditions" have little to do with risk and everything to do with perception and even they are changing. Very rapidly in fact. More and more younger people are partaking in the "hook up" culture. Many post divorced middle aged people (both men and women) are as well.
Also, these woman are not "used" for sexual gratification. Believe it or not the men and women who partake of this life style often have mutually satisfying experiences, When they don't it is usually a one and done, which is something one seldom does after spending months and months getting to know someone, only to find out that ultimately they are not sexually compatible. Again sexual compatibility is not a one size fits all issue. Also whenever there is "using" taking place, it is just as likely to a woman using a man as it is the other way around.
You seem to have a very limited way of thinking - women are weak, they need to be protected from being used. That is not the case at all. For the first time in history technological advances have placed women on equal footing with men, and many are absolutely taking advantage of the reality of modern life.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> You people are funny. So being pressured by a guy to have sex with them is called ‘having agency’ while standing your ground and doing it when the woman is actually ready or on her terms is a mansplaination or hypocrisy that suppresses her agency....


Now any of us who can go back and read my reply see that you didn't mention anyone being pressured, just a claim there is proof that casual sex is not in women's best interest, as in all women.


> I think you may be getting your pink knickers into a twist or are you trying to sell me some dodgy real estate?
> You really believe women get a good deal out of this?


I think what's more important than what we men think, is what the women themselves think. But I must be losing the argument since I've been accused of wearing pink undies.


> I would genuinely like to hear from women who enjoy the casual sex life style or why, their whole life, and don’t use it as a means to an end (to eventually find a long term partner).
> Of course it must be so amazing to have sex with men with no strings attached. After all, he can give you a mind blowing orgasmus


I don't understand this paragraph.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Actually those "values and traditions" have little to do with risk and everything to do with perception and even they are changing. Very rapidly in fact. More and more younger people are partaking in the "hook up" culture. Many post divorced middle aged people (both men and women) are as well.
> 
> Also, these woman are not "used" for sexual gratification. Believe it or not the men and women who partake of this life style often have mutually satisfying experiences, When they don't it is usually a one and done, which is something one seldom does after spending months and months getting to know someone, only to find out that ultimately they are not sexually compatible. Again sexual compatibility is not a one size fits all issue. Also whenever there is "using" taking place, it is just as likely to a woman using a man as it is the other way around.
> 
> You seem to have a very limited way of thinking - women are weak, they need to be protected from being used. That is not the case at all. For the first time in history technological advances have placed women on equal footing with men, and many are absolutely taking advantage of the reality of modern life.



Yes, perhaps my view is ‘limited’. 
I would rather my daughter had a ‘limited’ view but was safe.
For some reason, you don’t read much about men complaining being used sexually by women...and to be fair, I wish I was used that way every day as are many other men I’m sure...

I never said or implied that women are ‘weak’. They don’t need to be protected. But some women need to learn how to better protect themselves (as Ursula clearly does. If this thread doesn’t highlight this, I’m not sure what does). 

I’m not sure what the last sentence has to do with pitfalls of casual sex. Once again, I think we are stuck talking about different things which don’t have much to do with each other.

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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> I don't understand this paragraph.



Of course you don’t



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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm sure some do.
> 
> I'll put it this way, you can take the most happily married man. When his buddy tells him "hey, I'm getting married to Lisa" his initial though, which will more than likely be voiced is "don't do it!"
> 
> ...


It's fine that you posted your experience, but I don't feel this way. A lot of times I am happy for them.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Of course you don’t
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well there is trying to parse out the sentence with all the misaligned phrases and then there is the apparent sarcasm that orgasms could be a motivation for casual sex.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> Well there is trying to parse out the sentence with all the misaligned phrases and then there is the apparent sarcasm that orgasms could be a motivation for casual sex.



If you won’t let me show you then how will you ever know what you might be missing? 


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> If you won’t let me show you then how will you ever know what you might be missing?


I will reply if you post something coherent, will ignore gibberish like this going forward.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> NOT ok with husbands either!! Sheesh!!


I am not talking about a man raping his wife. That is never ok.

If my husband is walking by and grabs my butt, or boob, or whatever. No big deal. If we are laying in bed and he reaches his hand in my panties, that is fine too. (Not being rough or mean, or forceful.) 

If I am walking by and some guy, not my husband grabs my boob or butt, then yeah, he is not my husband and does not have my consent to touch me at all.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

SpinyNorman said:


> I will reply if you post something coherent, will ignore gibberish like this going forward.



Good idea. Thanks for the heads up. 


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, perhaps my view is ‘limited’.
> I would rather my daughter had a ‘limited’ view but was safe.
> For some reason, you don’t read much about men complaining being used sexually by women...and to be fair, I wish I was used that way every day as are many other men I’m sure...
> 
> ...


Your thinking is what is limited. You can not conceive of something you do not know. Your view is uninformed. You keep saying these women are being taken advantage of, need to protect themselves (as if men don't) and simply cannot understand that many many others can and do have a totally different opinion than you do. 
I would rather my daughter have the appropriate information, facts and data to make an informed decision rather than the values and traditions that are increasingly receding into the bowels of history as the world advances.
As for my last sentence, it relates directly to casual sex in that much of the risk formerly associated with it has been greatly reduced to the point that all those views and traditions, which were based in those risks, are no longer as applicable to reality as they once were.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Your thinking is what is limited. You can not conceive of something you do not know. Your view is uninformed. You keep saying these women are being taken advantage of, need to protect themselves (as if men don't) and simply cannot understand that many many others can and do have a totally different opinion than you do.



Of course I understand that others have a different opinion. I just don’t agree with it. More specifically, i would be interested to hear from women who choose this life style over others why it works for them.



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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Of course I understand that others have a different opinion. I just don’t agree with it. More specifically, i would be interested to hear from women who choose this life style over others why it works for them.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well a few have chimed in here. But I doubt you'll see too many more on a Marriage forum. Many never get married, and those that do typically come to figure out that committed monogamy isn't what they want. Once they cut the ties of matrimony (sometimes before) they hit the road running and never look back.
I used to think as you do. But once my marriage ended, I was thrown out into the great beyond and boy has it been an experience. So many of my past views have been obliterated by the reality that I have found. Including the ones you now espouse.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

FieryHairedLady said:


> I am not talking about a man raping his wife. That is never ok.
> 
> If my husband is walking by and grabs my butt, or boob, or whatever. No big deal. If we are laying in bed and he reaches his hand in my panties, that is fine too. (Not being rough or mean, or forceful.)
> 
> *If I am walking by and some guy, not my husband grabs my boob or butt, then yeah, he is not my husband and does not have my consent to touch me at all*.


Damn straight, and he'd better like knuckle sandwiches 'cause that's exactly what I'd be serving up to him! Rofl.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ynot said:


> Well a few have chimed in here. But I doubt you'll see too many more on a Marriage forum. Many never get married, and those that do typically come to figure out that committed monogamy isn't what they want. Once they cut the ties of matrimony (sometimes before) they hit the road running and never look back.
> 
> I used to think as you do. But once my marriage ended, I was thrown out into the great beyond and boy has it been an experience. So many of my past views have been obliterated by the reality that I have found. Including the ones you now espouse.



I didn’t see anyone chime in. 
I never questioned what you observed or that it doesn’t happen. Even a fish will try to adapt to a new environment. I said that ON AVERAGE, i don’t believe it benefits women.
Then I was strawmanned and accused of not letting women think for themselves and portray them as weak.
No woman has actually disagreed with me.
It’s weird but there doesn’t seem to be anything wrong to have an opinion and say “I don’t think it is beneficial for people to gamble in a Casino, on average” yet when it comes to this topic, it is some kind of heresy.
It’s just a personal opinion. Anyone is free to completely ignore it.



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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Hey @inmyprime, thank-you for your concern with my protection, but I actually think that I have that under control. I meet my dates in public places, and let someone know where I am and when I get back home. I'm not trained in self-defence, but feel that I take the necessary precautions when meeting new people. However, I cannot account for the men who are as pushy as the ones on the weekend, as I'm not a mind reader and cannot foresee how someone will act. I guess the only thing I could've done that I didn't do was punch them or kick them in the groin. And I also agree with @SpinyNorman, that paragraph was worded oddly and didn't make sense. And, there's no need for rudeness or overt sarcasm, or offering your own sexual services to other posters. There's no room for that here, so reign it in. Also I, like you, don't believe that the casual sex / FWB lifestyle is what most women are looking for. The odd one, yes, but most women cannot separate sex from feelings / emotions, and will probably end up feeling something for their FB.

Okay, I think this thread is done, thanks to everyone who contributed their thoughts to the issue at hand! You guys might want to start another thread to discuss the other stuff though.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> So, no men actually want to get married and be faithful to one woman?





TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm sure some do.
> 
> I'll put it this way, you can take the most happily married man. When his buddy tells him "hey, I'm getting married to Lisa" his initial though, which will more than likely be voiced is "don't do it!"
> 
> ...



It's because most men don't want to be faithful to their wives or get "stuck" with one woman.

So, they should have the courage to never get married in the first place.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I'm sure some do.
> 
> I'll put it this way, you can take the most happily married man. When his buddy tells him "hey, I'm getting married to Lisa" his initial though, which will more than likely be voiced is "don't do it!"
> 
> ...


I'm happily married and always faithful husband. All my closest friends are the same. But it's been discussed that hypothetically speaking if any of us wound up single I don't know a single one who would jump at being married again. That's not to say that we wouldn't for the right girl or circumstance, but I think there's something inherent about men and our nature and need for independence. Not all of course and YMMV and all that...

Many of the women on this forum might shout "how selfish! good riddance!". But they probably don't know how their own husbands really feel deep down and that marriage imposes sacrifices for them that are unique and they couldn't understand or relate to. They'd say "not my husband!". I think some of them at least might be surprised.

There isn't a right/wrong on this so please save the judgement. I think a lot of this is biological driven. Important to note that monogamy as a practice wasn't our initial nature and is a recent(ish) thing in the long history of humans. Today there's a strong social undercurrent to our behavior patterns that outlines the general expectations and relationship "milestones" - boy meets girl, boy and girl fall in love, boy proposes to girl, marriage ensues and happy family sprouts.


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