# Update on R with the WW



## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I guess I am wondering if this is a typical R. Things in general are going well, but there are a few hangups. Wife had an EA - DDAY May of 2011.

Things we've accomplished (as far as I can tell):

1) She has fallen out of love with the OM, and is committed to our family.
2) She has not broken the NC since 5/29/2011
3) We fight somewhat less than before the EA. Still argue from time to time, but less.
4) She very much looks forward to spending time with me.
5) My attentiveness to her needs is higher.
6) I am more aware of my actions and how they affect my W.
7) I am very prepared should this sort of thing ever happen again, including letting her go.
8) Wife is more proactive around the house, and more mature emotionally - she is not trying to emotionally manipulate
9) Wife actually prefers doing family things, whereas before was always looking for a night out with her friends.

Things that still bother me, or aren't better

1) Wife's self-esteem is still quite low - leaving her vulnerable, IMHO
2) She still has issues with privacy - tells me it's "fine" to look at her stuff, but hates it. Makes her feel violated and reminds her of the affair.
3) While she admits to wrongdoing, she still blames me for the state of our marriage which led to the affair. She thinks if I only listened to her when she was having trouble with me, it never would have happened.
4) I still am on an emotional roller coaster - although I am taking SAM-E - which helps a little bit. It's been a month since I've broken down.


Some pretty good stuff there, but some other things that aren't so awesome. All in all, after 9 months, I would give our R either B or B+ grade so far. For the "experts", do you agree? Good so far? Not good?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sounds similar to us - D day #2 was Nov 2010. Blaming you for the state of the marriage is not something she should be doing verbally or repeatedly though. Especially if she's insinuating it was at all your fault she cheated. Her cheating was HER choice, 100%. Don't let her wriggle out from under it. It took a few pointed conversations before hubby finally got that particualr point.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

It sounds to me like you're doing the right things and so is she.
You are not and can't be wholly responsible for her self image. She has to realize who she is.

Both of you contributed to the marriage problems. However, she decided on her own to be unfaithful. You have no responsibility for that.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

IMO, R is moving in right direction. I am a bit concerned about her saying that you are responsible for state of the marriage before the affair. She should stop this. Can you tell her very politely and firmly this?
As Lord Mayhem once said: You are responsible 50% (not more, sometimes even less) for the marriage problems.


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## cheese puff (Jul 24, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> 2) She still has issues with privacy - tells me it's "fine" to look at her stuff, but hates it. Makes her feel violated and reminds her of the affair.
> 3) While she admits to wrongdoing, she still blames me for the state of our marriage which led to the affair. She thinks if I only listened to her when she was having trouble with me, it never would have happened.


i would work on 2 and 3. those are a huge part of R. when my wife had A, it was all my fault once the fog lifted she took 100%blame for it.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Yeah, #2 and #3 are really the last sticking points left. 

Regarding #2 - we've dealt with this a lot - and frankly, I don't have as much desire to snoop on her anymore. She's been clean (via channels I know about) for a long time. I'm not all the way to 100% trust, but I'm getting there. Frankly, if she wanted to talk/see/email the OM again, she could. When she finally ended it, she said, "I want to stop all contact because I want to, not because you are making me, or else what's the point?" And that was a good point. 

Regarding #3 - we don't talk about this anymore. It's just a fact of the relationship. I don't care about the 50% thing - I totally disagree. Sometimes one of the parties is a far bigger reason things aren't going well than the other person. My wife tried, came to me many, many times before falling for her friend. I was too dense, or maybe too ****y to change some things to meet her needs. She felt she was out of options other than D, and she was too scared of D. I don't blame myself for the choice she made. Not at all. But I was more than 50% responsible for the state of our marriage. Probably 70/30. It's not an excuse for her behavior, she is 100% responsible for the affair.

We will likely never resolve #3. She blames me for the state of our marriage at that time, and admits she made a bad choice. That's where it stands, and probably always will.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Yeah, #2 and #3 are really the last sticking points left.
> 
> Regarding #2 - we've dealt with this a lot - and frankly, I don't have as much desire to snoop on her anymore. She's been clean (via channels I know about) for a long time. I'm not all the way to 100% trust, but I'm getting there. Frankly, if she wanted to talk/see/email the OM again, she could. When she finally ended it, she said, "*I want to stop all contact because I want to, not because you are making me*, or else what's the point?" And that was a good point.


The reason I think this is concerning is the lack of empathy for you and your healing. Doesn't she want you to trust her? Seems like her attitude is basically "You don't trust me? It sux to be you then, deal with it". My fWW doesn't mind if I look at her phone in front of her even, she doesn't have anything to hide anymore. She's an open book. The lack of empathy and lack of concern with earning your trust is a red flag. The whole "I want to stop contact because I want to" shows a complete lack of concern for your feelings and lack of trust.



Gabriel said:


> Regarding #3 - we don't talk about this anymore. It's just a fact of the relationship. I don't care about the 50% thing - I totally disagree. Sometimes one of the parties is a far bigger reason things aren't going well than the other person. My wife tried, came to me many, many times before falling for her friend. I was too dense, or maybe too ****y to change some things to meet her needs. She felt she was out of options other than D, and she was too scared of D. I don't blame myself for the choice she made. Not at all. But I was more than 50% responsible for the state of our marriage. Probably 70/30. It's not an excuse for her behavior, she is 100% responsible for the affair.
> 
> We will likely never resolve #3. She blames me for the state of our marriage at that time, and admits she made a bad choice. That's where it stands, and probably always will.


Isn't that one of the main reasons why cheaters cheat rather than go thru D because they're afraid of it? It's so much easier to take the easier path to cheating instead of doing the honorable thing. 

I really hope you make it thru this. The complete lack of empathy toward your hurt and trust, and the continued blame shifting are still obstacles toward R. From the posts and updates on your R, I'm getting the sense that some resentment is building up inside you with regards to 2 & 3. Hope I'm wrong.


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## CarolinaGirl (Feb 13, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Mayhem, I don't hold any resentment on #3. If anything, the resentment would be on her end. It's pretty clear what happened. We got married in 1995, had kids from 1997-2000, and about 2003 or so I started getting more and more distant, aloof, unattentive, etc, overwhelmed with the kids and life and the responsibilities therein. She began expressing this to me - she's very communicative.

From 2003-2011 we had lots of conversations about this, and my WW felt steadily emptier. She tried very hard to get me to be more present, caring, attentive toward her. It got to the point several times where she thought it wasn't working out, she cried for help a lot, came only to me. After I either didn't respond, or only very temporarily stepped up, she began to check out emotionally in 2010-2011. By March/April of 2011, she totally checked out. I saw it coming for a long time and didn't do enough to stop her from checking out. I even remembe the exact moment in March of 2011 when I realized maybe I wasn't capable of meeting her needs. I never thought she would fall in love with another man, but I should have known it was very possible. I just wasn't emotionally there for her, and she's a needy person in this regard (partly due to her being molested by her father in her teens).

Then in April of 2011 she crossed the line with her long time friend. I caught it very quickly, thank God. So she blames me for how empty she got, how desperate, and while she admits she was wrong in doing what she did (it was an EA not PA), she does hold me responsible for how she was feeling and how desperate she became. And I actually get it. So I don't resent this feeling from her. 


#2 has been a bigger struggle for me, personally.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The gist of posting this thread was more of a holistic thing. There are still issues, clearly, but as you can see from the original post, a lot of progress has been made in other areas.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

> #2 has been a bigger struggle for me, personally.


Maybe you should be less kind-hearted for a while. She shouldn't feel like she has an option to keep anything private.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

In my situation we share everything. Passwords, phone logs etc. There is no privacy in a marriage. Maybe try this. Periodically sit down and both of you together log in to various accounts (email, Facebook etc), pull up phone records together (your cell, her cell, home phone). Pull up the computer's browser history together. If you each have your own, do one then the other together. Maybe that will show her that it's a *we* thing not a *me* thing.

As for blaming you for the affair. That's a no-no. Next time she brings it up ask her if she upsets you should you be able to go tell a friend about what she did? Should you divulge intimate details of the marriage to another person? Anytime you invite a third person into the marriage the marriage is wounded and compromised. We all do things that negatively affect our spouses. That is never justification for bringing another person into the marriage.

Other than that it certainly sounds like the two of you are making good progress. There are many resources out there to help as well. The marriagebuilders stuff. Athol Kay's blog and books. And of course TAM. As long as you're moving forward you're okay.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Gab,
Your dealing with the same stuff I'm dealing with, and after 2years and 1day me and the Mrs. are solid.
Its a balancing act and now that the both of you are aware of what the other is capable of, I can only hope that you guys doen't go down that old road.

On the other hand there is a need that the both of you need met, and understanding that, is a big plus.But at the end of the day it is us as individuals that make a difference on how we want our marriages, its what we will tolorat. You know what I mean? 

My wife wants a healthy marriage and I know her boundries. I want a healthy marriage and she know my boundries. So when these boundries are not respected...well then its best to listen and avoid the resentment that can build if you cant speak up and stand firm that you are getting pissed and boundries are being crossed. How many time have we kept quit for the sake of peace? Well screw that!

Thats the thing for us....after this infidelity crap there is nothing holding each other back. Its like screw it, what do we have to loose..say your mind and but your big kid pants on an handle/deal with it. No more walking on egg shells, no more dealing with each other with kitcloves.

Its an understanding that after 21 years of marriage we are no longer f*cking around...we both diserve to be happy, and either met that need or go pound sand.

Make sense? Its wierd...its working for us.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

the guy said:


> Gab,
> 
> My wife wants a healthy marriage and I know her boundries. I want a healthy marriage and she know my boundries. So when these boundries are not respected...well then its best to listen and avoid the resentment that can build if you cant speak up and stand firm that you are getting pissed and boundries are being crossed. How many time have we kept quit for the sake of peace? Well screw that!
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this! I had the exact same thought - after all this infidelity crap, just let it fly - nothing to lose. We are still working at this - my wife always let it fly - I was the one who held back. I still struggle with this but am much better at it that before her EA. Makes perfect sense to me, but sometimes it's hard to actually do it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Its not that hard, just stop taking sh!t. Respect is commanded! 

If my wife has an issue well then speak up, don't go running off, if have an issue then I speak up.

Its not so much our tone these days as it is the history we have. It like "ok your going there" "we both have been down that road so face me and lets have a discussion on why you .......don't like someting I'm doing"

BAck in the day it was much easier to let it go and take the road as individual and the do our own thing instead of standing up and say "HEY I WANT TO DO SOMETHING WITH YOU".

In my case it was real easy to hear my wife say "I'm going out" b/c then I knew it was time for me to do my thing. marriage is hard work and my thinking is when the reward out wieghs the pain then it worth working at.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Gabriel,

Have you looked on marriagebuilders.com yet. Dr. Harley's *Policy of Radical Honesty* is a perfect way to show her what she needs to do in regards to openness.

The Policy of Radical Honesty

_But there are many who really have nothing to hide; yet they feel the need for privacy. They are offended when their spouse asks where they've been or what they've done. They feel that their spouse should trust them, and not assume the worst.

I'm dead-set against privacy in marriage, because it creates an unnecessary barrier to problem solving. When you and your spouse married, two became one. That means that prior to marriage, you had no one but yourself to consider when you made choices, and now you have each other to consider. There should be no part of your life that is off limits to your spouse, because literally everything that either of you do will ultimately affect each other. Privacy breeds incompatibility because it represents a part of your life that is off limits to accommodation.

Even when activities are innocent, it's extremely important for your spouse to understand what you do with your time. Be easy to check up on and find in an emergency. Give each other your daily schedules so you can communicate about how you spend your time. Since almost every thing you do will affect your spouse, it is important to explain what it is you do._


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