# Need advice before divorcing



## 53791263

37 yr old male married to a 32 yr old female for 7 years, no kids. 

I met my wife in college during a very dark time. I returned from a military deployment and had some minor ptsd. I was in jail twice over 2 years, living in a frat house and getting into fights. She took me in when I really needed it. Since then I've worked hard, recruited for the military for 8 years, then started my own business were I make 6 figures. I bought her a house, I paid for her MS degree and I've sought treatment for her alcoholism (she refused to go, said she would stop, that was 3 years ago). I brought her to marriage counseling 2.5 years ago, she stopped going once the therapist zeroed in on her lack of coping issue and general depressive and highly manipulative mind. I then wen to the VA for therapy for 6 months, they said I was a high functioning adult. They requested that my wife and I start couples therapy, she declined, she's too busy for that.

We don't really connect well or see eye to eye often. Her mothers side of the family has always been a little eccentric and odd. Her mother has become delusional in the past 5 years, she is diagnosed as being delusional, bi-polar and obsessive compulsive. You wouldn't believe how destructive these mental illnesses are, they completely destroy whole families. This is my first experience with it and I was amazed at how bad and completely unmanageable things get. I suspect my wife might have borderline personality disorder or maybe that she is just modeling her mom, since she was exposed to mental illmess her whole life. My wife will go against me on subjects that we are in complete alignment with in private, once in public she will go a completely different direction than what we were once in complete agreement on. When she goes against me on issues like this, in public, it causes me to feel socialy abondoned somewhat, like, what the heck was that for, what did I do to you?

She kicked me out of the house two weeks ago over a fight we had about one of these topics that we were in complete allignment on. I did not yell, but she spit in my face. I still didn't yell, but I told her I was going to have sex with a woman at work that was attracted to me. I would never do that and have never said anything like that before, but I was very angry about just being spit on. She took her rings off and said she was going to pawn them, this was probably the 4th time she's done this in 7 years. She kicked me out and I went to live with a buddy for 4 days. I set up a meeting with a divorce attorney midway through this seperation but she texted me a picture of a suicide note prior to the meeting with the attorney. I called 911 and the cops wanted my to commit her. I refused to show them the suicide note not wanting to embarras her. We have decided to reconcile but it only descended into another fight and know we are separated again.

She drinks a box of wine every 3-4 days and smokes a pack a day. She has a job. She interviews people via Skype for various position, works for a 3rd party HR company. She works 20-25 hours a week, makes enough to pay for her wine, cigarette and subscription beauty products. She probably spends 25-30 hours a week laying in bed watching netflix. then 2 hours a day standing outside smoking cigarettes while staring at her iphone. Basically its from the bed, to the front porch to smoke, to the refrigerator to get more wine, then back to the bed.... all day 2 years ago she was laying on a heating blanket and it gave her this huge grayish bruise all ofer her lower back. It was frightening. Her sister saw once and was like, OMG WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO YOU!! I looked at her and, yeah, that's from watching Netflix all day while laying on a heating pad!

After the suicide not incident I basically told everyone in her family and mine every single thing I said here and that we are getting a divorce unless she goes to Dialectical Behavioaral Therapy sessions for at least 6 months. I want to have kids but she needs to do this first. I feel that after exposing all of this to everyone we know that I've caused such damage to the marriage that I'm not sure if things could ever work again. My wife is very kind, she loves everyone. I feel bad about all this because she really is a good person, beautiful and trustworthy. My main issue is her inability to change for the better. She has smoked a pack a day since I met her 10 years ago and dstill drinks the same or more even though she's now 32. I think it's disrespectful to ruin your health and watch that much Netflix when you're married. I've been on her like every week about quiting smoking for 10 years, it's gotten to the point that I basinally hold her in complete contempt for her inability to respect herslef and control her emotions.

I've been reaching out to family about this now and thought I'd get an opinion here too. I feel like I'm being taken advantage of and used. All the best


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## Lostme

I would probably not have kids with this woman, she does not care about herself or you.

You can't force anyone to get help, stop smoking, stop drinking she will have to want that on her own. 

I'm sorry but unless she is willing to get the help she needs, your marriage will never get better and bringing children into it will only make it worse for all of you.

Do you go to therapy for yourself?


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## aine

You are still relatively young in the grand scheme of things, I know you love this woman, but she is not going to be a great mother and it is likely she has inherited issues from her mom. Whatever you do do not have kids with her. Does she want kids? Does she want to get better? I agree that you need to get yourself help because living with that is difficult. Sounds like you both have issues, if you are threatening to sleep with someone else, that is a very hurtful thing to do to a woman you supposedly care about, she will in no way want to meet you half way after that. Sounds like you add fuel to the fire too?
Give her a deadline to turn herself around, tell her you will be there for her, you love her, etc if not it will be divorce.


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## 53791263

I know that I have said things in retaliation that I shouldn't have. She has a difficult time controlling her emotions, her manipulation and feminine outburst cause me to have an equal masculine outburst sometimes, which is what you would expect. She's wore me down over the years and know we both just go straight to the pain points. Her ego is just so big, she can't get past it. 

I'm fairly confident that I could find a great woman that wouldn't mind raising a family with me within a year if we did divorce. I just don't want to wait too long, it's so painful to cut this marriage off but I know deep down it wont go well over the next 40 years if I stay. These problems will only get worse with life's difficulties.


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## Rockclimber

That sounds terrible. She is obviously unhappy with the marriage and with herself. She will have to hit rock bottom in order to change herself for the better. If you truly love her you will stick with her through the good times and the bad as you promised. She has a mental disorder and you promised to love her in sickness and in health, she is sick right now. If it is too much of a burden to carry this weight around then you need to be honest with her and file for divorce, this may be the "rock bottom" she needs to hit in order to turn her life around. I am going through the same situation except I was the one who had to hit bottom to turn my life around. I agree with @aine "Give her a deadline to turn herself around, tell her you will be there for her, you love her, etc if not it will be divorce." Good luck.


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## KillerClown

I know you feel indebted to her for taking you in when you were having PTSD. I think you've more than paid her back. It's time for you to live your own life and it will never include her. Let her go and find a woman who will lift you up instead of drag you down.


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## browser

53791263 said:


> I know that I have said things in retaliation that I shouldn't have. She has a difficult time controlling her emotions, her manipulation and feminine outburst cause me to have an equal masculine outburst sometimes, which is what you would expect. She's wore me down over the years and know we both just go straight to the pain points. Her ego is just so big, she can't get past it.


You have unrecognized anger management issues. You blame her for almost everything. You say bad things to her "in retaliation". She cannot "control her emotions" so "her outbursts have an equal masculine outburst" which "is what you would expect" because "she wore you down".

Yeah, I'm sure you're the innocent one here but you have no choice because of all the damage she has inflicted on you and anyone would naturally agree. Sorry not buying it. 

Obviously I do not agree with your position on conflict. There's no excusing your own actions regardless of what she says and does.



53791263 said:


> I told her I was going to have sex with a woman at work that was attracted to me. I would never do that and have never said anything like that before, but I was very angry about just being spit on.


You did it, you said it.. own it.

Your attempt to excuse your actions because of her is just lame and it's really not going to help you in the long run, you'll just be in and out of lots of failed relationships always wondering why you seem to meet "the wrong type of person" while they are undoubtedly saying the same thing about you.

Either way, you lose.



53791263 said:


> I called 911 and the cops wanted my to commit her. I refused to show them the suicide note and they left not wanting to embarrass her (a potentially suicidal person)


What does this even mean? You call the cops because you are concerned for her after she supposedly threatened suicide. The cops arrive but for some odd reason you decline to "show them the note" which of course would help the authorities to help her, and then they "leave so as not to embarass her".

Sounds like you're making this stuff up, seriously.


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## Lostinthought61

Let me ask you this, if she never changes at all...would you stay with her?
if is no then the likelihood that she will change is so remote that you are better off leaving and starting a new life. if Yes then precede but i would not bring a child in this world with her.


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## 53791263

"What does this even mean? You call the cops because you are concerned for her after she supposedly threatened suicide. The cops arrive but for some odd reason you decline to "show them the note" which of course would help the authorities to help her, and then they "leave so as not to embarrass her"."

I meant to say that I did not show them the note because I did not want to embarrass her or cause any damage to her future employ-ability. I was unsure as to what consequences a 302 would have on her. I have since contacted the police in order to 302 her should I need to based on the previous threat. I've reached out to her family and have told them that I want to 302 her using the letter as justification. They have told me that it would not do any good at this point, that it was just to get my attention and that if she does it again to absolutely commit her. 

Sorry you feel that this is all a lie, it is not. I have been a good husband to her. We've traveled all over the world in the past 6 years, averaging 2 countries every year. These are the only times that she acts like she did when I first met her. When daily life interjects into her life, specifically her mentally ill mom, her emotions become hard for her to handle. She shuts down, turns inward and smokes, drinks and sleeps late and watches Netflix all afternoon. Life will only become more complex as we age.


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## 53791263

browser said:


> You have unrecognized anger management issues. You blame her for almost everything. You say bad things to her "in retaliation". She cannot "control her emotions" so "her outbursts have an equal masculine outburst" which "is what you would expect" because "she wore you down".
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure you're the innocent one here but you have no choice because of all the damage she has inflicted on you and anyone would naturally agree. Sorry not buying it.
> 
> Obviously I do not agree with your position on conflict. There's no excusing your own actions regardless of what she says and does.
> 
> 
> 
> You did it, you said it.. own it.
> 
> Your attempt to excuse your actions because of her is just lame and it's really not going to help you in the long run, you'll just be in and out of lots of failed relationships always wondering why you seem to meet "the wrong type of person" while they are undoubtedly saying the same thing about you.
> 
> Either way, you lose.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this even mean? You call the cops because you are concerned for her after she supposedly threatened suicide. The cops arrive but for some odd reason you decline to "show them the note" which of course would help the authorities to help her, and then they "leave so as not to embarass her".
> 
> Sounds like you're making this stuff up, seriously.




I meant to say that I did not show them the note because I did not want to embarrass her or cause any damage to her future employ-ability. I was unsure as to what consequences a 302 would have on her. I have since contacted the police in order to 302 her should I need to based on the previous threat. I've reached out to her family and have told them that I want to 302 her using the letter as justification. They have told me that it would not do any good at this point, that it was just to get my attention and that if she does it again to absolutely commit her. 

Sorry you feel that this is all a lie, it is not. I have been a good husband to her. We've traveled all over the world in the past 6 years, averaging 2 countries every year. These are the only times that she acts like she did when I first met her. When daily life interjects into her life, specifically her mentally ill mom, her emotions become hard for her to handle. She shuts down, turns inward and smokes, drinks and sleeps late and watches Netflix all afternoon. Life will only become more complex as we age.


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## Chris Taylor

53791263 said:


> I feel bad about all this because she really is a good person


No, she isn't. She's sick at best, manipulative at worst. You did the right thing by exposing this to family members becasue one of these days she's going off the deep end and will charge you with domestic abuse. Having it on the record with others that she is unstable is a good start.

If you want to stay in the marriage, then she needs to get professional help. If she refuses, you should just leave because this won't get better on its own.


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## browser

Chris Taylor said:


> If you want to stay in the marriage, then she needs to get professional help. If she refuses, you should just leave because this won't get better on its own.


Especially if you continue to allow her to trigger you into saying and doing things you later regret.

Remember this woman is so seriously ill that she has contemplated suicide. So maybe you can figure out a way not to take her attacks personally because she's not in her right mind. Telling the woman you're going to have sex with an attractive female coworker because she spit on you is just going to escalate the conflict and possibly result in her taking drastic action towards you, herself or someone else.

If you can't handle the outbursts then you need to remove yourself from the situation, either temporarily or permanently.


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## 3Xnocharm

Your wife is mentally ill. Only she can help herself. There will be no magic fix for this, and even if she improves, it will be a lifelong struggle. Based on what you mentioned about her mother, her having a child would be a HUGE mistake, as the metal issues will likely be passed on. 

Your situation is toxic, I would advise getting out.


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## tropicalbeachiwish

She was drinking & smoking like this before you were married, correct? What made you think that would change once you got married? Did you two specifically talk about those 2 issues and agree that she would stop/cut back? I have a problem with people that marry others expecting them to stop something that they were doing before they got married. Are you one of those people? 

You certainly have the right to change your mind. Some habits can gradually turn into resentment for the other spouse. Is this the case for you? 

She's drinking a lot of wine. Do you think that she's an alcoholic? I can certainly understand the struggles with that since my husband is an alcoholic in denial. Unfortunately, it'll most likely get worse before it gets better. Please do not bring children into a marriage with an alcoholic for a mother. Please.


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## 53791263

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> She was drinking & smoking like this before you were married, correct? What made you think that would change once you got married? Did you two specifically talk about those 2 issues and agree that she would stop/cut back? I have a problem with people that marry others expecting them to stop something that they were doing before they got married. Are you one of those people?
> 
> You certainly have the right to change your mind. Some habits can gradually turn into resentment for the other spouse. Is this the case for you?
> 
> She's drinking a lot of wine. Do you think that she's an alcoholic? I can certainly understand the struggles with that since my husband is an alcoholic in denial. Unfortunately, it'll most likely get worse before it gets better. Please do not bring children into a marriage with an alcoholic for a mother. Please.


Yes, I've been on her to quit smoking since I first met her and have badgered her about quitting every week since then. You are right, I should have made quitting smoking an ultimatum prior to marriage. I think I actually did make that an ultimatum but it never happened. We both drank regularly in college. I stopped drinking almost all together 5 years ago. Her drinking gradually picked up over the years since we married, which is why we both recognized a problem in which I sought professional help for. I identified several in-patient programs but they were cost prohibitive. I found an alcohol counselor within a 10 minute drive from our house 3 years ago but she declined saying she would stop on her own.


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## Uptown

53791263 said:


> Her mother... is diagnosed as being delusional, *bi-polar* .... I suspect my wife might have *borderline personality disorder* or maybe that she is just modeling her mom


537, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of my bipolar-1 foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between these two disorders. If you're interested, I describe those behavioral differences in my post at *12 Bipolar/BPD Differences*.

If the BPD behaviors in that post seem more relevant to your W's situation, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, 537.


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## 53791263

Uptown said:


> 537, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of my bipolar-1 foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between these two disorders. If you're interested, I describe those behavioral differences in my post at *12 Bipolar/BPD Differences*.
> 
> If the BPD behaviors in that post seem more relevant to your W's situation, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, 537.


From reading that, I would say my wife is BPD, if she is either. Her rage comes on in a few seconds. It's confusing for me because the rage is brought on by things that might elicit a somewhat bothered response by someone else, but her response is extreme. So I can't say that it's completely unprovoked but it is over the top. I've read other comments from people describing BPD aggression as similar, were the recipient of the wrath assumes they are deserving, but the punishment does not fit the crime, so to say. 

For example, I'll sometime scroll through facebook on my phone prior to going to bed, her eyes are shut, shes facing the opposite wall, my small screen should bother her. Wrong! She will completely flip out if I do this. She has whipped her entire body around and on top of me in a flash and ripped my phone from my hands on three occasions. Is that a just response to your spouse having his smart phone screen on for 5-10 additional minutes after lights out?

I have to edit what I say around her constantly for fear that I will hurt her feelings or offend her in some way. Once she has hurt feeling or is offended, my night is pretty much egg shells going forward. Tip toeing through conversations like a mouse. She definitely isolates me, is jealous of her sisters when I talk about them, and has a sense of entitlement, like I should do all for her. Funny thing is, I've done a lot for her, and she asks what I've done to fight for her in the past 2 years. 

Her childhood was fine from what I've been told. She has always said it was great. Dad was always working or golfing, which she wasn't to keen on but he was never abusive in any way. So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD. 

Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years. Thinks she is dying almost everyday and tells my wife that. Tried suicide 3-4 times, pill and alcohol. got a DUI 3 years ago. I think they finally got her on the right combination of meds the last time we committed her 2 months ago, thank god! The father basically completely refuses to manage his wife and leaves my wife's sister to do it. My wife being so emotionally sensitive and loving her mom, takes it extremely hard, for 4 years. 

I feel bad for her but she is 32 and has a masters degree; she should have what it takes to defend herself from these emotions and the world in general and what it can through at a person. I've been through a lot, I was resilient and overcame. Other people have been through nazi death camps and the like, they stayed resilient and overcame. I don't know.


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## Uptown

53791263 said:


> Her childhood was fine from what I've been told.... So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD.


Having a good childhood does not rule out BPD. About 30% of those with full-blown BPD report that they had good childhoods without abuse or abandonment. The current theory is that BPD arises from genetics and/or childhood abuse or abandonment. It therefore is believed that genetics alone may be sufficient.



> Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years.


Did her mother's extreme behavior appear only in the past five years? I ask because, given that she was diagnosed as being bipolar, she likely acquired that disorder by her mid-twenties. That is, she likely was experiencing mood swings when parenting your W during her childhood -- and thus may have been emotionally abusive. 

Another reason I am asking about the mother is your statement that _"Her mother's side of the family *has always been *a little eccentric and odd." _A related issue is whether the mother treated your W in an invalidating manner during her childhood. If she has any siblings, are they in good mental health?


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## sokillme

53791263 said:


> From reading that, I would say my wife is BPD, if she is either. Her rage comes on in a few seconds. It's confusing for me because the rage is brought on by things that might elicit a somewhat bothered response by someone else, but her response is extreme. So I can't say that it's completely unprovoked but it is over the top. I've read other comments from people describing BPD aggression as similar, were the recipient of the wrath assumes they are deserving, but the punishment does not fit the crime, so to say.
> 
> For example, I'll sometime scroll through facebook on my phone prior to going to bed, her eyes are shut, shes facing the opposite wall, my small screen should bother her. Wrong! She will completely flip out if I do this. She has whipped her entire body around and on top of me in a flash and ripped my phone from my hands on three occasions. Is that a just response to your spouse having his smart phone screen on for 5-10 additional minutes after lights out?
> 
> I have to edit what I say around her constantly for fear that I will hurt her feelings or offend her in some way. Once she has hurt feeling or is offended, my night is pretty much egg shells going forward. Tip toeing through conversations like a mouse. She definitely isolates me, is jealous of her sisters when I talk about them, and has a sense of entitlement, like I should do all for her. Funny thing is, I've done a lot for her, and she asks what I've done to fight for her in the past 2 years.
> 
> Her childhood was fine from what I've been told. She has always said it was great. Dad was always working or golfing, which she wasn't to keen on but he was never abusive in any way. So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD.
> 
> Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years. Thinks she is dying almost everyday and tells my wife that. Tried suicide 3-4 times, pill and alcohol. got a DUI 3 years ago. I think they finally got her on the right combination of meds the last time we committed her 2 months ago, thank god! The father basically completely refuses to manage his wife and leaves my wife's sister to do it. My wife being so emotionally sensitive and loving her mom, takes it extremely hard, for 4 years.
> 
> I feel bad for her but she is 32 and has a masters degree; she should have what it takes to defend herself from these emotions and the world in general and what it can through at a person. I've been through a lot, I was resilient and overcame. Other people have been through nazi death camps and the like, they stayed resilient and overcame. I don't know.


Did the Mother only start having these issue after she was an adult because if not I doubt her childhood was as idealistic as she says. It is hard for a child to feel safe under these conditions. Regardless mental illness can be genetic. 

You are asking for a hard life if you stay. People with BPD are very emotionally dangerous. It is also very possible she doesn't have the skills to be married. If this was another form of mental illness no one would expect the person with the disability to get married and would feel that this is almost unfair to them. It is just because personality disorders are so misunderstood that it isn't thought of this way. Imagine if she had mental retardation for instance, though it is sad I don't suspect many would look on favorably at a marriage or relationship that was exacerbating this condition, which inevitable would happen if the person with the retardation was to try to push themselves beyond their ability in order to maintain their relationship. In the same way your relationship may be exacerbating her emotional disability. She really is not capable of hanging in there with you emotionally. She can only do this for short periods of time. Maybe it is unfair of you to expect her to, to push her beyond her emotional ability. 

Also for you this is as risky as being married to a hardcore drug abuser. Even in remission there is a great risk. 

Let's switch this around. Why do you want to stay?


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## BlueWoman

Ugh. What a mess. 
When people threaten suicide there are two possibilities: 1) She was suicidal. In which case you should have had her committed, because I imagine blowing her brains out would have a greater affect on her employability than being committed. 2) She was manipulating you. But you will never be sure of that, so again the only option is have her committed. 

And yeah, file for divorce and the go back to counseling. You are staying with someone who brings out the worst in you. You need to examine why you are allowing someone to do this to you. And whatever you do, please don't have children with her. She is not your "one" but you would be attached to her for life if you had kids with her. Don't. Just don't.


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## Satya

She is in no condition, mentally or otherwise, to have children. Not until she's been healthy for a few YEARS at least. 

You seem like a bright man. You're not being very cerebral about what it takes to be a good mother to your future children.

She's not it right now. There are far too many other issues she needs to resolve first. Its sad but you can help very little. She needs to help herself, if she even wants to. 

Threatening to have sex with a coworker was very immature of you. I realize you were angry from her spitting, which is also childish and disrespectful. Your job is to remain calm under pressure and LEAVE the immediate area if she starts to get belligerent. 

Personally, I don't see much to salvage here. She has no respect for her own well-being. It's not your job to make up for that.


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## 53791263

BlueWoman said:


> Ugh. What a mess.
> When people threaten suicide there are two possibilities: 1) She was suicidal. In which case you should have had her committed, because I imagine blowing her brains out would have a greater affect on her employability than being committed. 2) She was manipulating you. But you will never be sure of that, so again the only option is have her committed.
> 
> And yeah, file for divorce and the go back to counseling. You are staying with someone who brings out the worst in you. You need to examine why you are allowing someone to do this to you. And whatever you do, please don't have children with her. She is not your "one" but you would be attached to her for life if you had kids with her. Don't. Just don't.


Yes, I'm definitely going back to counseling to find out why I allowed this to happen so that it does not happen a second time.


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## 53791263

Uptown said:


> Having a good childhood does not rule out BPD. About 30% of those with full-blown BPD report that they had good childhoods without abuse or abandonment. The current theory is that BPD arises from genetics and/or childhood abuse or abandonment. It therefore is believed that genetics alone may be sufficient.
> 
> Did her mother's extreme behavior appear only in the past five years? I ask because, given that she was diagnosed as being bipolar, she likely acquired that disorder by her mid-twenties. That is, she likely was experiencing mood swings when parenting your W during her childhood -- and thus may have been emotionally abusive.
> 
> Another reason I am asking about the mother is your statement that _"Her mother's side of the family *has always been *a little eccentric and odd." _A related issue is whether the mother treated your W in an invalidating manner during her childhood. If she has any siblings, are they in good mental health?


The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.

From what I've been able to uncover, the family moved into a new house every 2 years for the past 40 years. I know it sounds crazy, but I asked my mother in-laws sister a few months ago how often they moved, and she told me they've moved 20 times. My mother in-law is 65, so if they bought their first house at 18, that's move every 2.5 years. Each new home was in the same school district, all within 5 miles of the last. Maybe these moves were the result of bi-polar mood swings and the husbands reaction to make them go away? My father in-law is totally checked out now, couldn't care less about his wife. He spends all day and afternoon at the golf course while she gets drunk and goes wild with suicidal ideations. Then my wife and wifes sister have to intervene to save their mother, over and over and over again.


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## 53791263

sokillme said:


> Did the Mother only start having these issue after she was an adult because if not I doubt her childhood was as idealistic as she says. It is hard for a child to feel safe under these conditions. Regardless mental illness can be genetic.
> 
> You are asking for a hard life if you stay. People with BPD are very emotionally dangerous. It is also very possible she doesn't have the skills to be married. If this was another form of mental illness no one would expect the person with the disability to get married and would feel that this is almost unfair to them. It is just because personality disorders are so misunderstood that it isn't thought of this way. Imagine if she had mental retardation for instance, though it is sad I don't suspect many would look on favorably at a marriage or relationship that was exacerbating this condition, which inevitable would happen if the person with the retardation was to try to push themselves beyond their ability in order to maintain their relationship. In the same way your relationship may be exacerbating her emotional disability. She really is not capable of hanging in there with you emotionally. She can only do this for short periods of time. Maybe it is unfair of you to expect her to, to push her beyond her emotional ability.
> 
> Also for you this is as risky as being married to a hardcore drug abuser. Even in remission there is a great risk.
> 
> Let's switch this around. Why do you want to stay?


Wow, you are right. I do not think she has the emotional fortitude or make up to hang in the adult world for long period of time. I'm a big believer in personality assessments for hiring people and I know that people can only adapt for a short period of time but it creates stress and they revert back to what's natural for them. 

I'm asking too much of her. She is very beautiful and I love her. We've spoken about raising a family together many times, what they would look like, what we would name them. We've traveled all over the world ut when we return home it's always the same. sad.

I can't stay, it wouldn't be right.


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## sokillme

53791263 said:


> The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.
> 
> From what I've been able to uncover, the family moved into a new house every 2 years for the past 40 years. I know it sounds crazy, but I asked my mother in-laws sister a few months ago how often they moved, and she told me they've moved 20 times. My mother in-law is 65, so if they bought their first house at 18, that's move every 2.5 years. Each new home was in the same school district, all within 5 miles of the last. Maybe these moves were the result of bi-polar mood swings and the husbands reaction to make them go away? My father in-law is totally checked out now, couldn't care less about his wife. He spends all day and afternoon at the golf course while she gets drunk and goes wild with suicidal ideations. Then my wife and wifes sister have to intervene to save their mother, over and over and over again.


Did it coincide with any change emotionally with you two. Was there a different level of commitment at this point? You sound like you love her and are very attracted to her. Dude that is not enough. That is fine for a superficial dating relationship, but that is not enough for a life time partner.


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## sokillme

53791263 said:


> The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.


This could be Trigeminal Neuralgia. Was this ruled out?


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## 53791263

sokillme said:


> Did it coincide with any change emotionally with you two. Was there a different level of commitment at this point? You sound like you love her and are very attracted to her. Dude that is not enough. That is fine for a superficial dating relationship, but that is not enough for a life time partner.


I do love her but I'm no longer in love with her. She is also very attractive, which is why I fell for her upon first sight, those feelings are fading too now as I see that that is not all that matters in a life long partner. I can still find a very attractive partner that has it together, she just might have a kid from a previous marriage at this point in the game.

None of this coincided with anything in our relationship, not that I can think of anyways.


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## turnera

I usually push for couples to stay together, but almost never do I do so when one has a mental condition. Why? Because the marriage will almost certainly never improve, only erode and because by staying, you enable the sick person to not have to look at her issues. Look at her life; you're paying for her to live a crappy day to day life in bed. If you leave, she will have to either move in with mommy somewhere or get off her butt and work and try to survive. Either way is better than spending the next 40 years vegging out drunk watching tv.


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> I usually push for couples to stay together, but almost never do I do so when one has a mental condition. Why? Because the marriage will almost certainly never improve, only erode and because by staying, you enable the sick person to not have to look at her issues. Look at her life; you're paying for her to live a crappy day to day life in bed. If you leave, she will have to either move in with mommy somewhere or get off her butt and work and try to survive. Either way is better than spending the next 40 years vegging out drunk watching tv.


Exactly! I have equipped her with every benefit and tool she needs to make it. Masters degree, counseling, advice on dialectical behavioral counseling, trips to Europe, Central America and most of the major cities in the US. She has done nothing but use and manipulate me. What she has been going on and on about over these last two weeks is "what have done for me" and "what have you done to fight for this marriage". Me Me Me. She's completely blind to the things I've done for her. When I flip the question and ask her what she's done for me in the past 8 years, she can't even make eye contact with me and changes the subject. I see it as harmful to her if I continue to allow her to use me.

I remember when I was in counseling at the VA, the therapist looked at me at said 'Do you really want to have kids with her' in manner that hinted that I should divorce. I should have split way back then, 2 years ago. The therapist asked me what she wants from me and I was honest then and I believe this still to be true. She wants me to be quite and go to work everyday, bring home paychecks and quietly pass away at a convenient time for her.


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## turnera

IIWY, I'd get out a poster board and write out a list of ALL the things you've done for her. Not to get her to change her mind. But to leave with her once you divorce, so she can remember all that you did do.


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> IIWY, I'd get out a poster board and write out a list of ALL the things you've done for her. Not to get her to change her mind. But to leave with her once you divorce, so she can remember all that you did do.


I already sent an email to her sisters outlining exactly that information 2 weeks ago.


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## 53791263

53791263 said:


> I already sent an email to her sisters outlining exactly that information 2 weeks ago.


UPDATE:

So I filed for divorce on Friday. My wife moved back into the house last Tuesday, it is her house as much as mine, so not much I can say, we live in separate rooms. Last night she broke a little and asked why I even want a divorce. I printer out the story that starts this thread and told her this is why. She read it over and said that her mom was not diagnosed as bi-polar, she was however diagnosed as OCD, delusional and depressed. My wife also stated that I self diagnosed her as having a borderline personality, she disagrees. I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts, so that's what I named it. 

She does not want to divorce, but she has not once addressed the drinking, smoking and the fact that she has a MS degree and chooses to work for $10 an hours on a part time basis. She earns $900 a month and that's all spent on wine, cigarettes, beauty subscription products and whatever gifts she buys for people. I paid for that MS degree so she could be an equal partner in this relationship, she was clear on that when I met her 9 years ago. Her two sisters have MS degrees, so I paid for my wife to get one so she would feel equal to them because I know how sensitive she is and also so she could contribute to the family finances. 

So she came to me last night and sat at the corner of the bed while I was falling to sleep and said she didn't want a divorce and that I'm being unreasonable. She held a compassionate tone for 1 - 2 minutes and then, as always, began with the personal attacks on me. ('I'm a selfish narcissist and a sociopath because all I care about is money'. 'Her family sees right through me'. 'I'm a product of divorce so I'm messed up from the beginning'. She's going to find a rich athlete and I'l be sorry'. 'I'll only find unattractive women with kids'. 'I'll never find what I want'. 'You don't have a degree so ____________'. Don't forget were you came from, you're whit trash'.

She calls me a selfish narcissist and sometimes a sociopath often. I am very ambitious. I've always wanted to be self employed and have complete financial freedom to travel the world and then to raise a family free of financial restrictions. I read roughly 36 business / mindset books a year for the past 4 years about self improvement, because I don't have any degrees so I have to teach myself. I'm the past two years I have become the self employed person I always wanted to be and I earned more last year than I ever thought I would starting out. 

My wife claims that she has always supported me but the truth is she belittles my ambitions and my lack of a formal education often. When I first started in real estate and left my career in the military as a recruiter, she would make comments such as: 'oh, you think you're going to be some rich house flipper'. 'Everyone sees that you've changed, we all see right through you'. All you care about is money'. 

I don't neglect my wife in the pursuit of business. I've taken her to Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Costa Rica all in the past 3 years. I offer to take her out to new restaurants every weekend. When I'm at home I cook her excellent meals. I do almost all of the cooking. She'll heat up a pizza and expect me to bend at the knee and show respect. 

She's made no comments about going into therapy on her own. She has definitely not brought up her under employed situation and what she aims to do about it. She did mention that she made an appointment to see a doctor about quiting smoking (do you need a doctor to motivate you to quit? JUST QUIT WITH THE F'ING SMOKING!) She seems to drink just as much. 7-8 liters of wine a weeks or 1.5 -2 bottles a day. 

I went on Match.com a few weeks ago and found that there actually are hundreds of single or divorced woman that are attractive and within 30 miles of me.. and with no kids. Went on 2 dates with an attorney, a motivated, lively, intelligent attorney.


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## 53791263

UPDATE:

So I filed for divorce on Friday. My wife moved back into the house last Tuesday, it is her house as much as mine, so not much I can say, we live in separate rooms. Last night she broke a little and asked why I even want a divorce. I printer out the story that starts this thread and told her this is why. She read it over and said that her mom was not diagnosed as bi-polar, she was however diagnosed as OCD, delusional and depressed. My wife also stated that I self diagnosed her as having a borderline personality, she disagrees. I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts, so that's what I named it. 

She does not want to divorce, but she has not once addressed the drinking, smoking and the fact that she has a MS degree and chooses to work for $10 an hours on a part time basis. She earns $900 a month and that's all spent on wine, cigarettes, beauty subscription products and whatever gifts she buys for people. I paid for that MS degree so she could be an equal partner in this relationship, she was clear on that when I met her 9 years ago. Her two sisters have MS degrees, so I paid for my wife to get one so she would feel equal to them because I know how sensitive she is and also so she could contribute to the family finances. 

So she came to me last night and sat at the corner of the bed while I was falling to sleep and said she didn't want a divorce and that I'm being unreasonable. She held a compassionate tone for 1 - 2 minutes and then, as always, began with the personal attacks on me. ('I'm a selfish narcissist and a sociopath because all I care about is money'. 'Her family sees right through me'. 'I'm a product of divorce so I'm messed up from the beginning'. She's going to find a rich athlete and I'l be sorry'. 'I'll only find unattractive women with kids'. 'I'll never find what I want'. 'You don't have a degree so ____________'. Don't forget were you came from, you're white trash'.

She calls me a selfish narcissist and sometimes a sociopath often. I am very ambitious. I've always wanted to be self employed and have complete financial freedom to travel the world and then to raise a family free of financial restrictions. I read roughly 36 business / mindset books a year for the past 4 years about self improvement, because I don't have any degrees so I have to teach myself. I'm the past two years I have become the self employed person I always wanted to be and I earned more last year than I ever thought I would starting out. 

My wife claims that she has always supported me but the truth is she belittles my ambitions and my lack of a formal education often. When I first started in real estate and left my career in the military as a recruiter, she would make comments such as: 'oh, you think you're going to be some rich house flipper'. 'Everyone sees that you've changed, we all see right through you'. All you care about is money'. 

I don't neglect my wife in the pursuit of business. I've taken her to Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Costa Rica all in the past 3 years. I offer to take her out to new restaurants every other weekend.

She's made no comments about going into therapy on her own. She has definitely not brought up her under employed situation and what she aims to do about it. She did mention that she made an appointment to see a doctor about quiting smoking (do you need a doctor to motivate you to quit? JUST QUIT WITH THE F'ING SMOKING!) She seems to drink just as much. 7-8 liters of wine a week or 1.5 -2 bottles a day. 

I went on Match.com a few weeks ago and found that there actually are hundreds of single or divorced woman that are attractive and within 30 miles of me. Went on 2 dates with an attorney, a motivated, lively, intelligent attorney.


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## 3Xnocharm

You really should not date until the two of you live apart. You are just asking for trouble. 

Your wife is a real b!tch, wow! When she starts in on you with all the name calling and personal attacks, don't engage with her. (It doesn't matter at this point what the hell she thinks of you!) Just say "Im sorry you feel that way" or "okay," and move away from her and the conversation.


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## 53791263

3Xnocharm said:


> You really should not date until the two of you live apart. You are just asking for trouble.
> 
> Your wife is a real b!tch, wow! When she starts in on you with all the name calling and personal attacks, don't engage with her. (It doesn't matter at this point what the hell she thinks of you!) Just say "Im sorry you feel that way" or "okay," and move away from her and the conversation.


Yeah, I don't let her get to me anymore. When she starts with the personal insults I just smile and knob my head and say alright, or that's nice or bless you heart.


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## Uptown

> I see it as harmful to her if I continue to allow her to use me.


I agree. For her own welfare, it is important she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and bad behavior. Otherwise, she has no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to better manage them, i.e., learn how to acquire missing emotional skills so she can grow up. Hence, your enabling behavior (e.g., your walking on eggshells around her) is destroying any incentive she would have to improve herself.

Moreover, as long as you remain in the house with her, you are serving to trigger her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. Importantly, it is impossible to avoid triggering them because those two fears lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. Hence, backing away from one fear means that you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other.



> I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts.


Because we all exhibit the nine BPD traits to some degree, it is easy for us to spot strong occurrences of these traits in others whenever they occur. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, always being "The Victim," and strong verbal abuse. Hence, after living with a woman for seven years, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to be unable to spot any strong BPD symptoms (i.e., warning signs) that occur.



53791263 said:


> So I filed for divorce on Friday.


If she exhibits strong BPD traits as you believe, the divorce process likely will get nasty and vindictive very quickly. When a BPDer splits you black, she can start perceiving you as Hitler incarnate and will treat you as such. I therefore suggest you read the book, _Splitting: __Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist._

I also suggest you read two online articles. One is *Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD*. The other is *Leaving a Partner with BPD*. Both are at the "Articles" section of BPDfamily.


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## turnera

One, you have no business dating. My brother refused to date until he was officially divorced and just because of THAT, he had women lining up down the block. He had integrity. You also need time ALONE without a woman. Period. If you can't be alone, then you have bigger problems than a bad wife.

Two, the next 100 times she brings up why you shouldn't be divorcing her, simply say "I'm looking for a woman who won't criticize me" and walk away. Then watch her twist herself into knots trying NOT to criticize you. It'll be good for laughs and keep you going.

Three, she will never change. Accept that and stop thinking about what she does. Call up your old friends, get back into sports, join some clubs, start having fun again (without women).


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> the next 100 times she brings up why you shouldn't be divorcing her, simply say "I'm looking for a woman who won't criticize me" and walk away.


I'm not going to say that. She'll say I'm the one that criticizes her. She'll reference all the nagging I've done about

1. Not smoking cigarettes or asking me to buy them, or to stop at every gas station so she can buy them...
2. Drinking 5 liter boxes of wine like some men drink a 12 pack.
3. Getting a job that pays more than minimum wage or working full time, after all, you have a masters degree. 

I just feel that my criticizing is directed at things that will make our family better, stronger, healthier and more free.


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## turnera

Oh, so YOU can choose what's good for the family and she can't?

Uh huh.

Well, then, just practice not saying anything.


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## Openminded

If she really doesn't want a divorce, she may offer to have a baby to keep you -- and also offer to do whatever else you want to keep the marriage. Don't. The odds she will truly change long-term aren't good. 

So no sex. You definitely don't want to risk bringing a child into this mess.


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> You also need time ALONE without a woman. Period. If you can't be alone, then you have bigger problems than a bad wife.


Ugh, I hate it now but you are right. I'm not dating till this is finalized!


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## 53791263

Update:

I've been reading some great books about divorces and breakups, the best two are from Susan Elliott, Getting Past your Breakup & Getting Back Out There. 

I'm coming to understand that one of the main dysfunctions of our relationship was a complete lack of boundaries between my wife and her mother and sisters. It was all exasperated by my MIL's mental illness (which is completely uncontrollable) and her husbands complete neglect of her. My FIL's complete neglect causes my wife and her only other single sibling to assume responsibility. The FIL knows this and is using my wife and her sister to his own ends to have free time in retirement and to not be burdened. The oldest sister is a health school counselor and had established boundaries in her marriage before her and her husband had children and maintain those boundaries, they don't allow the MIL to interfere at all. The oldest sister is also very manipulative and paranoid as is the FIL. She manipulates my wife to watch her children and belittles her when the family doesn't get together to celebrate or entertain her kids or her. Complete POS woman as with the FIL and my wife know just how I feel about it, she herself understands it but is to weak minded to do anything about it. No boundaries. As you can see, the FIL and oldest sister share the same personality. 

What's funny is that I sent an email to all three sisters 5 months ago stating that I was going to bring charges against the FIL for criminal neglect if we don't all meet to assign a person to hold a power of attorney in order to put her away for good, or until she's properly medicated. Everyone ignored this email. I'm the mark in this situation, my wife is the one carrying the burden and the other sisters want it that way! My wife is a willing tool to be used by manipulators, a useful idiot. 

The lack of a boundaries has deteriorated my wife and our relationship so much that I hold her in contempt and now don't really think of her at all for days, hence the divorce. I can't even say for certain that my wife wasn't always just like this since I met her. I always thought her mom was crazy. Her and her sisters seemed to ignore it, to my constant surprise. My MIL truly needs to be put in a home or left to her own devises to end her life as she wishes. I would have never argued for medical assisted suicide until I witnessed my MIL and her actions over the past 4 years, I completely support it today.

My wife just does not care to establish boundaries with her family. She will go down with that ship with a righteous smile on her face. The first counselor I took her to 3 years ago pinpointed this unhealthy relationship with the MIL during the 3rd and final session she agreed to attend. She would not face it then and will not face it today. Maybe in a few years she'll pick up some of the books that I've read in the past two weeks and be able to enter a healthy relationship with someone else, I doubt it though, she has refused every attempt at help for the past 4 years.

As I said in the first post, I was in the darkest point in my life when I met her, which explains why I was unable to see things clearly. I overlooked a lot of red flags that won't go unnoticed again. My brother and friends have told me that I expressed to them that I was settling when I married her, looking back, I was. Now that I'm a healthier person I should be able to select a better mate in the future.

I'm putting the house on the market tomorrow as she will not move out.

ALSO, is it strange to talk to your mom and sister on the phone 2-3 times a day at 32.. EVERY DAY! They live within 20 minutes.


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## turnera

Re: future partners: watch how their parents are because that's how they'll be.

A good book on picking a better partner is Getting The Love You Want.


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## PieceOfSky

You might find this book worthwhile:

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretak.../1442238321/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> A good book on picking a better partner is Getting The Love You Want.



Wow, this book is great. I definitely have some underlying problems from my childhood. My parents divorced when I was 5, I was the oldest of 5 siblings and the parents would send nasty messages back and forth through me. I was diagnosed as being emotionally disturbed when I was 8 and that's when my parents eased up on each other. It took my till I was 25 to put peace to everything, only after a military deployment did I have enough courage to confront my parents and tell them how I feel, we've been fine ever since. 

I've been open with my wife about these issues that I had when I was young. She would initially feel bad for me but would use it against me within months as a constant source of justification on any fights we would have. 

Last year I told her my deepest troubling event that happened when I was young (psychological abuse by my mom). I would act out and my mom, single at the time, would lock me in the attic for 20-30 minutes to punish me, needless to say, it was terrifying and made me even angrier. This abuse stopped after 2-3 iterations and once my moms boyfriend (now stepdad) found out, this was why I bonded so quickly with him. My wife felt bad for me for 2-3 weeks after I told her about it but then started to deride me and my family for it during every argument. I made peace with it, I tried to tell her that and that she can't hurt me with it. I point to this as my turning point to when I no longer loved her. 

I'm not perfect either. I derided her and her mom for the lack of boundaries we had in our marriage. We had to commit my mother in law 4 times in the past 4 years. I was sick of it and the fact that she was at our house constantly when the FIL should have been caring for her. She wouldn't put up a boundary against her mom and I expressed my displeasure often. My family lives 3 hours away though, and they never intrude in my life.


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## turnera

You never really get over childhood issues. They are forever a part of who you are, how you think. All you can do is recognize the stuff and learn healthy ways to deal with them. For instance, you picked a partner without boundaries with parents, just like you had, secretly hoping she'd do better so you could feel at peace finally, as GTLYW suggests. But when she didn't, you could have learned your role in the triangle and guided your wife toward healthier boundaries, rather than just blaming and resenting her.


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## 53791263

turnera said:


> you could have learned your role in the triangle and guided your wife toward healthier boundaries, rather than just blaming and resenting her.


Keep in mind, I did not disclose this to her till 5 months ago, 3 years after I initially tried to bring her into counseling for her depressive and self harming nature. 

It's not my job to make sure she doesn't drink a 5 liters of wine ever 4 days, smoke a package a day and work for 20 hours a week at minimum wage despite a graduate degree. She simply refused to help herself in any positive way over the course of 6 years. It's not my job to drag her through life while trying to self care for myself, while also running a business. I take action.

No kids, 32 years old, 5'7"/115lbs, 4.0 graduate degree in Instructional Leadership, living in a major city with employment opportunities. No obstacle in her way expect for her own mindset. I don't take excuses, I take action.


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## turnera

I'm not blaming you for what happened in the past. I'm showing you how educating yourself can help you make healthier choices.


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## 53791263

UPDATE: I've had better days.

Today was the alimony hearing. We both have our own attorneys, which is stupid looking at it now because we have no children, no savings, only a house with $20k in equity. 

So these lawyers (which I ****in' hate like only a combat veteran could) Are purposefully bragging things out. Acting all chum chum and aloof about things and colluding with each other to bring us to additional alimony hearings and demanding additional retainers to attend them. I told my wife that we should fire them while the damage is small, it's going to double by the time they schedule the master hearing! Told her, lets fire them and I'll pay for the arbitrator to handle the rest. The ex is a loud mouth drunk with a huge ego and just talks non-stop then hangs up the phone when I try to explain. God am I pissed. By the time this is over she is going to give every penny she gets to her attorney, and she won't even listen to my reasoning!

The question:

-Married 6 years. 

ME: -No college degree -First 5 years I grossed $50k. -In 2016 made $130k as a realtor. - No salary, all commission since I became a realtor. -36 years old. -no kids. -healthy
-18 years military -Paid $40k in GI Bill for my wife's masters degree -Pay all housing and living expenses, always have. 

HER: - 33 years old -Grossed an average of $5k over the last 5 years. -I supported her while she attended the graduate program I paid for for 3 of those years. -no kids -healthy (looking) 4.0 GPA MS degree in Instructional Leadership, not using. -Earns $10 per hr working 15 hours a week.


Her attorney told her that I could be made to pay $1,500 a month for 2 years. This seems absolutely insane and I'll go to jail before I pay it. I bought the house myself before marriage and commingled it when we refinanced, HUGE MISTAKE. 

No kids, only a house as an asset. She has a masters degree and is 33 years old, does it sound right that I could pay this drunken women $1,500 a month in alimony!!!? I'm in PA. A loud mouthed drunken ***** that smokes a pack a day with a master degree that I paid for, F#ck if I'm going to pay her $1,500 a month just so she can be a layabout piece of **** for two years. If I seem angry, it's much more than that. I worked my ass off for 6 years waiting for her to 'snap out of it', equipped her with every tool she needed to fend for herself.


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## 3Xnocharm

I dont see why she would be granted alimony. Only married 6 years, no children, and she is educated and fully capable of holding a full time job. Keep your attorney. As unstable as she is, there is no way you will get through this in a normal, amicable manner, even though you dont have much between you. I would be shocked if she didnt make this a huge ordeal.


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## browser

2 years alimony on a 6 year marriage, when you made six figures that last year.. I think you got away cheap. 

You might not like it but you were the breadwinner, and the courts see this as a way to give her a couple of years to get back out into the workforce and becoming self sufficient. 

I know you're pissed but the laws were there even before you got married. The courts didn't tell you to get married but they're going to tell you how to get divorced and her attorneys is just giving her the best case scenario as to what she can expect. It might be a bit unreasonable but the seed has been planted in her head and now that it's there she probably won't settle for anything less. 

2 years goes fast. Just be glad you weren't married for 10 years because that's considered a long term marriage by many courts and you could have been on the hook a lot longer.

Just checked my "source" and this is what it says for your state in regard to alimony as far as contested divorce cases go:
_
When asked how long it would take a couple with standard disputes regarding custody, child support, property division, and alimony to have all of these issues resolved at a first trial (i.e., not including any appeals), attorneys gave answers ranging from 3-5 years.

"If there is no agreement between the spouses," said Pollock, "Pennsylvania requires a two-year separation, which generally means a two-year waiting period to start the process, though some counties allow the equitable distribution case to start after 18 months. A trial on the economic divorce could be within 12-18 months following the commencement of the action." 

[Note that it seems that more or less any Pennsylvania divorce litigant could get up to three years of alimony because it takes that long to get to a trial on the issue and interim support would flow in the meantime.]_

You may also be ordered to pay her legal fees.

_Pennsylvania family court judges have the power to order one spouse to pay the other spouse's attorneys' fees._

I'm sure your wife's attorney told her this, she was probably told you WILL be ordered to pay the legal fees even if this is not certain. 

So your wife has no reason to bargain with you. She holds the cards, as do most women when the husband is the breadwinner. Now you understand why men are usually screwed in a divorce.


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## 53791263

Now I feel completely justified for throwing away every piece of clothing that she had in her closet a few hours ago. Thanks. She can use the alimony to start over fresh with new clothes. I'll throw more **** away tomorrow when I wake up full of anger and rage again. They can play their games, I'll play mine. See if I can't turn her into a lesbian, have her swear off guys all together. You'd think a ***** would want to save her sanity and emotional stability for future relationships, but I'll take all that in exchange for a little money

And I can't wait to write some of the most scathing reviews imaginable on social media about my attorney. 

The heat I'm expending on this one is on par with a nuclear warhead and just as forgiving.


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## browser

53791263 said:


> Now I feel completely justified for throwing away every piece of clothing that she had in her closet a few hours ago. Thanks. She can use the alimony to start over fresh with new clothes. I'll throw more **** away tomorrow when I wake up full of anger and rage again. They can play their games, I'll play mine. See if I can't turn her into a lesbian, have her swear off guys all together. You'd think a ***** would want to save her sanity and emotional stability for future relationships, but I'll take all that in exchange for a little money
> 
> And I can't wait to write some of the most scathing reviews imaginable on social media about my attorney.
> 
> The heat I'm expending on this one is on par with a nuclear warhead and just as forgiving.


Back in 11/2016 when you started another thread it was clear you have unresolved anger management issues, and it appears you have not yet addressed them. I suggest you do. ASAP.

Think about how it's going to sound to a judge when your ex says "and he threw away all the clothes in my closet!".

You just might have to pay for them. 

I can't disagree with anything you said about your attorney. They're all the same, they push their clients into the boxing ring, knowing full well they'll be paid far more than their clients will ever get from the contested litigation.


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## PieceOfSky

You have much to be angry about. I cannot imagine how awful it all feels.

But do yourself a favor, and reach out for some healthy way to get it off your chest, and not hurt your future self. As much as it sucks right now, there will be a time when your life can be lived without the sorts of constraints imposed on you now. Keep your eye on that possibility, don't sabatoge it, and it will be yours soon enough to be worth it.

Don't let any of this push you to do something destructive. It is not worth it. It's sometimes hard to feel that in the moment, so when you feel hopeless and trapped, focus on venting and coping until the better future starts to feel possible.

I have used privately writing my angst and anger using pen on paper, rapidly, without censoring, and largely illegible. I've also vented to professional therapists. You need something that works. (Besides your lawyer -- I made that mistake once during an IP dispute. Big mi$take!)

It is horribly unfair. But, it is what is -- for now -- until it is behind you. Get through it, and you'll be free and ok.

Take care. This is hard.


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## 53791263

browser said:


> Back in 11/2016 when you started another thread it was clear you have unresolved anger management issues, and it appears you have not yet addressed them. I suggest you do. ASAP.


I definitely run a little hotter than most people. I like to be in charge of my own destiny. Having nameless functionaries use meaningless calculations to determine my future infuriates me severely. 

I'm aware that my anger isn't helping this situation. Once or twice a day I break through it and can think clearly, I try to maintain that attitude, but my mind wanders to what if/worst case scenarios and I get tossed into a rage again. 

Back to the gym tonight! Throwing weights around and running endless miles has helped in the past.


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## browser

53791263 said:


> I like to be in charge of my own destiny.


Marriage is not for people who like to maintain control of their lives.

It's completely contradictory.


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## Holdingontoit

I agree with @browser. 2 years of alimony for a SAHM wife? You are getting off cheap. Your situation is proof of the adage: divorce is expensive for a reason - it is worth it.

Stop fighting. Treat the alimony as the cost of an associate's degree in how not to do marriage. Cheap at twice the price.

And get some help with the anger. As other's have said, your future self and future partners will thank you.


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## 53791263

Is alimony a tax deductible item? I don't know if I should have, but I wrote off the attorney's retainer last year ($1,000). My CPA didn't seem to care, the penalty even if I get audited would be so small it doesn't really matter. 

The legal fees for 2017 will be much more substantial. Can I write off divorce legal fees?

s-corp


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## browser

53791263 said:


> Is alimony a tax deductible item? I don't know if I should have, but I wrote off the attorney's retainer last year ($1,000). My CPA didn't seem to care, the penalty even if I get audited would be so small it doesn't really matter.
> 
> The legal fees for 2017 will be much more substantial. Can I write off divorce legal fees?


Yes alimony is tax deductable. Yes you can write off anything. 

It's only an issue if the IRS questions it and as long as you can justify it as a valid business expense there should be no issues.


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## EleGirl

53791263 said:


> Is alimony a tax deductible item? I don't know if I should have, but I wrote off the attorney's retainer last year ($1,000). My CPA didn't seem to care, the penalty even if I get audited would be so small it doesn't really matter.
> 
> The legal fees for 2017 will be much more substantial. Can I write off divorce legal fees?
> 
> s-corp


No you cannot write off the divorce attorney's fees on your taxes.

Alimony is however tax deductible to you. She will pay taxes on the alimony that she gets.


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## browser

He asked if he can write off his divorce expenses. The answer is yes. Just like the answer is yes to "can I go 100 mph on the freeway" or "can I rob this bank". 

As long as you're willing to face the consequences of breaking the law, it's all good.


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## EleGirl

browser said:


> He asked if he can write off his divorce expenses. The answer is yes. Just like the answer is yes to "can I go 100 mph on the freeway" or "can I rob this bank".
> 
> As long as you're willing to face the consequences of breaking the law, it's all good.


You are right. He can do it. Well I guess he did it last year. But if the IRS catches it there will be consequences.


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## browser

EleGirl said:


> You are right. He can do it. Well I guess he did it last year. But if the IRS catches it there will be consequences.


It appears he knows that since he's already figured out what the penalty will be if he gets caught.


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## 53791263

browser said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right. He can do it. Well I guess he did it last year. But if the IRS catches it there will be consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> It appears he knows that since he's already figured out what the penalty will be if he gets caught.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the penalty for the $1k that I deducted last year would be extremely small, probably not even noticed during an audit. Deducting many thousands of dollars on this year's returns would definitely get noticed, and the penalty might not be gigantic but I don't want to deal with the ****storm from the IRS.


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## 53791263

Update:

We sold the marital residence and I bought a duplex, live in one half, tenants in the other cover the mortgage. She's with her sister in her sisters apartment. I pay $765 per month in pendite alimony lite till this is over. Hoping to have the decree signed in 3-4 more months. God it takes so long in PA to get a divorce. It's rigged to create work for attorneys. 


I'm absolutely at the saddest point of my life. Mostly caused by the bitter fighting we went through while living in that house. We had a settlement all planned out, we were talking, I was going to give her all the proceeds of the house that I bought prior to marriage and we were going to have an amicable divorce with the judge signing off asap. THEN she hires an attorney that wants to take me for $1,350 per month in pendite alimony lite. He advises her not to speak to me, block my number, tells her family not to speak to me. He tells my attorney that he has to get her everything that she might be able to get SO THAT SHE CAN'T COME AFTER HIM FOR LEGAL MALPRACTICE. 


From that point, we were fighting like vicious dogs, destroying each other emotionally and financially, no kids, why not. I had her arrested for accessing my bank account and taking money, she was charged with two felonies. Me thinking was that if she wants $1,350 in alimony after I paid $50k for her to get a Mater Degree debt free, then she shouldn't be taking money now. Like, just leave me be, I'll leave you be, here take this $15k from the house sale and use the Masters Degree that I paid for. She plea bargained down to an harrasment charge but it's still on her record. Can't find work is what she claims now. I agreed to go back to my previous job were I made $85k per year and the pendite alimony lite was reduced to $765. 


The introduction of that ******* attorney destroyed both of our emotions and burned every bridge that every existed between us and any mutual friends we made. I imagine I'll have regrets my whole life.


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## EleGirl

This is the problem with some attorneys. Some learn to stir the pot since the more you fight, the more money they make. Hopefully the divorce will be completed sooner than later and you can move on with your life.


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