# A tale of betrayal



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

Found out my wife was cheating Dec 09. Confronter her…at first denial…then admitted to one affair…then two. Prior to her confession I laid a keystroke logger on her laptop and accessed all of her secret email accounts. Close to 200 emails in 5 secret accounts. I found old cell phone bills...thousands of text messages...I was able to piece together the following:

- 1 long term PA (1 year)
- 2 one night stands
- several EAs and numerous encounters with other men (kissing, fondling, etc.) 


Since her admission of cheating she we have both been in IC. We are starting MC soon. Her attitude is indifference….aloof. Since she has been in IC its almost like her therapist has somehow convinced her its my fault that this happened (****en Therapist!). My therapist has been semi-helpful…although…in general therapists seem to dance around the issue…..no blame…no fault…no negative stuff. She had a rough childhood…raped at 8 and again in college. Abusive alcoholic father who abused her from a very young age (no sexually). I’m on the fence right now….50/50 to leave or stay. We have three young daughters….8 year old twins and 3 year old. She has also mismanaged the family finances to the tune of over 100k in CC debt. Had to take a home equity loan, 401k loan, and cash out an old 401k just to keep out heads above water.

All comments and questions are welcome.


Thanks.


----------



## iwillsurvive (Mar 4, 2009)

I think she has some major issues. She's a serial cheater. And unless she WANTS to change to fix the marriage, she won't. She has to be committed to changing her behaviors in order for the counseling to do any good. 

You said she seems aloof in counseling. Does she act like she wants to save the marriage and cares that she hurt you so deeply? 

If she doesn't seem to care, I would say it's not worth it- even for your kids. They will see that she doesn't respect you and they will see that you are hurt. And both can be very damaging to them.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

She has written me several letters. She says in the letters that she is ashamed and remorseful. That she will never be able to forgive herself. She has said she wants to try and save the marriage. The problem is its just words on paper. She hasn't really shown true remorse by course of action (loving gestures, reassurance of her remorse). When we get into discussions about what happened she becomes very defensive..angry...
I believe its due to the guilt she feels...she redirects her guilt back at me. Its very confusing now...I don't fully trust her but as far as I can tell she has not cheated on me since 12/2009.




iwillsurvive said:


> I think she has some major issues. She's a serial cheater. And unless she WANTS to change to fix the marriage, she won't. She has to be committed to changing her behaviors in order for the counseling to do any good.
> 
> You said she seems aloof in counseling. Does she act like she wants to save the marriage and cares that she hurt you so deeply?
> 
> If she doesn't seem to care, I would say it's not worth it- even for your kids. They will see that she doesn't respect you and they will see that you are hurt. And both can be very damaging to them.


----------



## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

It's a very tough situation, and I really feel for you. With that level of unfaithfulness there are clearly some very serious issues she needs to work out. I personally believe that divorce is (almost) always the wrong choice. However, she has to be willing and able to admit guilt and express repentence to you as well as be willing to work on things to improve them and repair the marriage. 

At the same time, the question has to be asked, how much sorrow and regret do you want to hear? There is a point that comes where the cheater has expressed their sorrow and repentence and the other person needs to accept that and move on. I'm not saying you are at that point. 

She does need to learn to show loving actions to you, but ... and maybe I'm way off base here, but judging from your tone here and on other threads you seem to be very "attack minded" right now. And if she is going to start showing you loving actions and remorse she needs to also feel some grace and forgiveness from you as well. 

Also, I would not say that it is "your fault" however, in most situations like this (and I am going through a long-term cheating wife myself) there are contributing factors. Now your wife obviously has a very dark past, and that means she probably came into this marriage with a lot of baggage that you may or may not have known about ahead of time. However, almost always if not always there are issues that we contirbute that lead to a void felt by the cheater which they then fill with their affairs. 

That does not excuse or remove guilt or blame from the cheater. They could have handled things better, made us realise the issues, asked and sought counselling, individual or couples, etc, etc. But if things are going to be healed in the marriage we do have to realize that we also have things we have to change. 

It may not be nice to hear that, but it's the truth. In fact I was lucky enough in my case to see those things as soon as I found out about the affair. I immediately realized the things I had done, and felt sorrow for them mixed in with the hurt/pain/anger of finding out about my wife's betrayal. Because I was able to act on those things and change myself, my wife and I today have a very good marriage that is improving daily ... less than 3 months after finding out about the affairs. In fact I would say we are better off at 3 months here, than most people are after a year even. 

If you don't want to handle this situation, if you don't want to repair your marriage, then end it. If you want to truly fix your marriage I would say that first your wife seems to have some serious issues from her background that need to be dealt with in individual counselling, but secondly I would say that you need to be open to the fact that you almost certainly did contirbute some factors in your marriage that created the emptiness/void/hurt whatever in your wife which she then WRONGLY chose to fill by having these affairs.


----------



## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

Counselling is only going to work for you if you are both willing partners, wanting to make your marriage work, and willing to recognize and accept your own fault for the failures in your marriage. That does not mean that it is your fault your wife made her immoral and wrong choices, but it does mean that you have to accept that there are contributing factors that you caused in your marriage which created the void in which her actions were taken. 


If you are both commited to making it work, then she needs to show some remorse, you need to show a lot of grace, and you both need to make the decision that you are going to be completely open, and change what needs to be changed so that your marriage can be what you both want it to be - wonderful and mutually fulfilling. 

Judging from her background I'm sure that she also has some personal demons that need to be worked out through some individual counselling. 

Without both parties being commited, open, and honest though, and without both striving to make the changes needed and looking to the other person's best interest, then there is not much chance of surviving this.


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Since you are starting from the bottom of a deep pit, things can look pretty bad - but there is always hope.



> She has written me several letters. She says in the letters that she is ashamed and remorseful. That she will never be able to forgive herself. She has said she wants to try and save the marriage. The problem is its just words on paper. She hasn't really shown true remorse by course of action (loving gestures, reassurance of her remorse). When we get into discussions about what happened she becomes very defensive..angry...
> I believe its due to the guilt she feels...she redirects her guilt back at me. Its very confusing now...I don't fully trust her but as far as I can tell she has not cheated on me since 12/2009.


Several things to note here:

The letters are a VERY good thing. You have - in writing - her own words. Regardless of her actions (which can change over time) these things won't change. It's a big step on her part, and something I think you should consider carefully.

Also - she says she wants to work on the marriage. THIS is a great thing as well - many people on this site alone (not counting any other) don't have that opportunity from the start - if ever.

So be glad you have both of these going for you. They are enormous strokes in your favor. And, whether she feels like it or not, hers too.

Now about her actions: she hasn't shown loving gestures - and she gets defensive when you talk about it. 

Have you shown her loving gestures to her? You _are_ obliged to love her as long as she is your wife (part of your vows..) And by love her, I don't mean 'feel love for her' - I mean the daily actions of showing her by word and deed that you value her. Yes, she owes that to you as well, but there is nothing written wherein she has to 'go first'. 

For one thing, she may feel unlovable - and unloved. She may be very reticent to even show the slightest emotion for fear of being slapped down (mentally) - she is most likely afraid of reprisal and punishment. 

Note that is really isn't your job to punish her (she'll do enough of that herself - too much, actually - once recovery is underway.) Your job is to stand for your marriage, which includes love, honor, etc....

You are right, people respond out of guilt by being defensive. But there is another reason altogether. If they do not feel SAFE they will preemptively defend themselves. And this, I fear, is more likely the situation in which you find yourself.

Your anger and hurt is completely understandable - your wife chose an inappropriate method of addressing an issue in your marriage. She was wrong to do so. But that does not negate the reality that something has been ongoing in your marriage. 

To top all that off, she had a rather inappropriate sexual upbringing that has colored her view of how sex works. In her case, it is typical to confuse sex with pretty much any other form of attention (the alternative route people in her position take is to reject sex altogether.) This again is a wrong action she will have to address.

But that can wait for the future.

The key here is to step back and assess the entire situation from an objective viewpoint: how have you treated each other in the past? How has she treated you? How have you treated her? How have you reacted to each other, etc.

We have a standard procedure that tends to give some deep insight into how you work together: we always suggest you take the MBTI quiz and then look into as much of the information that is available on the internet regarding what you find out (I will give you some great websites later). 

The reason for this? In all the pain and emotional trauma you are going through (together) this gives you a very fun (and insightful) break from all the hubbub. What you learn will help with the tougher stuff coming up.


----------------
Now playing: King Crimson - Bude
via FoxyTunes


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I also wanted to add one short addendum: I personally believe that ANY marriage can work - as long as both partners are willing to work at it - regardless of troubles that may arise - as long as both remain committed to the marriage.

Having said that, I see some major hurdles in your case - the primary one being your wife's unfortunate childhood. This creates habits in a person that are difficult to overcome. Not impossible. Difficult. ANYONE can learn new ways of doing things. The really sad part of the issue is that she is more likely than not going to find 'therapists' who will convince her that she is an unfortunate 'victim' of circumstance - helpless to do anything other than act the way her early environment shaped her.

That kind of rot is responsible for so many troubles around the world...

Unless she takes the bull by the horns, and truly commits to the marriage - and to becoming a new person - you will find her repeating her action when some new trouble arises. No she is not a serial cheater (whatever that is) - she is in the habit of doing the wrong thing. That is, unless that IS the definition of a serial cheater...


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey betrayed~

Alright I'm jumping in over here and I'll do my best to help ya but a few "ground rules" okay? I will do my best to be honest with you and tell you "the truth in love" so to speak with respect, and if you have an issue I'm telling you to your face. I would appreciate that same level of respect returned because right now, I'm apprehensive about saying some things due to feeling a little like you called me immoral on that other thread. But let's move on and start new here and behave okay? 

Okay so you gave a very detailed list of the occurrences. I'll be honest with you. My first reaction was  "Holy Smoke! This is serious!" The more typical affair (if you want to call them that) is one man, one woman, and another person... it often starts as an emotional connection and then moves to a physical connection. This, at least on the surface, sounded fairly atypical and like it was starting with physical activities. This TENDS to indicate that it's not your more "typical" affair and while some of those dynamics may still apply, there's probably a whole lot more going on!! 

Then you wrote: 


> Since her admission of cheating she we have both been in IC. We are starting MC soon. Her attitude is indifference….aloof. Since she has been in IC its almost like her therapist has somehow convinced her its my fault that this happened (****en Therapist!).


I'm sure that adjective there is "helpful" or "lovely" right?  I'm glad to see you have both been to individual counseling as honestly I highly suspect this has more to do with the "individual" and not as much or less to do with the "marriage." I'm not saying the marriage was perfect or blameless...just that the main crux of healing may need to be the "individual" here. 

You say: _"Since she has been in IC its almost like her therapist has somehow convinced her its my fault that this happened."_ How do you know this? I mean, what has occurred that gives you this idea? By chance is it your wife reporting it that way? The reason I ask is that you know a person can go to counseling for a whole hour and the therapist can say for a whole hour "you are personally responsible" and in the last two minutes say "Oh he may have contributed to the situation" in passing ... and the disloyal spouse will say "My therapist told me you contributed to making this mess!"  Yeah it's kind of the nature of the beast. Also it's fairly "normal" for the disloyal spouse to think of justifications for their behavior. Whether you are religious or not, most would consider unfaithfulness as "wrong" and so in order to justify doing what they know is wrong, the reasoning is "I never loved you" or "I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you" or "I was never happy"....that kind of thing. Thus, unless the therapist has told you so directly, my guess would be that the therapist may have discussed with her some of the ways you contributed to the situation but most likely did not convince her it's your fault. 



> My therapist has been semi-helpful…although…in general therapists seem to dance around the issue…..no blame…no fault…no negative stuff.


Actually that's a weird myth about therapists. Most of us only get one side of a story or one person's viewpoint, and just from what we're told, we can not just "know the truth" and tell who's lying and who's to blame. Let's be honest--if a person goes to therapy and is unwilling to open up and be honest, the only "data" the counselor has to work with is lies! So we can't tell and don't usually act like a judge who determines fault and penalty. Oddly enough, that's what I think many people expect. Also, just a little note. A therapist may delve into the past, reasons for thinking patterns, and healing for harmful pasts...a COACH tends to be more like 'Identify the issue...identify the goal..steps to achieving the goal...done." So they are two different things. It sounds like you'd like a counselor who acts like a coach. 



> She had a rough childhood…raped at 8 and again in college. Abusive alcoholic father who abused her from a very young age (no sexually).


Ah! See now this stuff is telling. Betrayed, here's the part where I feel hinky telling you but let's go for it shall we? When I was a child I was beaten and sexually abused too. Very often, rather than face the fear and pain of those years, a person grows up with some fairly warped views of themselves, sex, and being loved/loveable...and then rather than take personal responsibility for their choices as an adult, they'll say "Well I was abused!...." Betrayed, I've been there/done that and the way I was taught as a kid was a mess but that doesn't excuse me as an adult. I'm still responsible for the choices I make. Furthermore, the way I see it, I know I was taught funky as a kid, so I have a responsibility to get my heiney to therapy and work through it! Face my fears and figure out how to be more healthy! 

In this instance, it would certainly seem like it makes the level of betrayal and sexual activity more understandable (as in, "Oh I see") but she is still responsible to learn how to be faithful, to practice honest, and to pursue learning the healthy ways of expressing sexuality. Yeah--it messes with your head no doubt. But no--it's not reasonable to act out and keep "blaming" the past. At some point she's going to have to face the past in her therapy and often, right about then, it gets too scary and people stop...and then say "Well I tried therapy and it got worse instead of better." That's because to get through to "Better" you have to face the scary thing squarely and learn how to think of it in the healthy way. Does that make sense?



> I’m on the fence right now….50/50 to leave or stay. We have three young daughters….8 year old twins and 3 year old. Honestly…if it wasn’t for my daughters…I would have left already. She has also mismanaged the family finances to the tune of over 100k in CC debt. Had to take a home equity loan, 401k loan, and cash out an old 401k just to keep out heads above water.


I'm going to be blunt. Adultery is the one reason given in Christianity where it is moral to divorce, and from what I know of other religions and moral value systems, most have a fairly similar allowance for the loyal spouse who's been betrayed. Thus I'm fairly sure no one would bat an eyelash if you just said, "Nope, I'm done. I'm deciding to accept this vow is broken and I didn't break it. We're done.." and walked away. 

Here's the fact though. There are some few people of a caliber and quality that they have it within them to not only honor their vow to love another "for better for worse" until they die, but also to go above and beyond and treat it like a covenant. I get the feeling this is you, and here's why. Plenty of other men would already have said, "I was faithful...buh bye" "she damaged, not my problem....buh bye" or "why should my children and I have to put up with her mess...buh bye". But not you. From what you've written I think you want to try to stand like a lighthouse for your marriage and for your family...so let's do that. 

Your wife most likely will have to deal with and face her sexual past before the reality of her disloyalty means much to her. For example, I suspect you would love to see some remorse from her, some level of working to make you happy in the marriage, etc. However (not being there) my guess is that in some funky way her ideas of love, attention and sex are all mingled up so that to be loved is sex and sex = love (which isn't entirely healthy). Know what I mean? So before she realizes the nuclear bomb this is to a healthy person, she'd have to get her own head straight to some degree. That means she's likely to need to go to her therapist for a while (like it may be a year!) and she's likely to have to face REALLY scary stuff and want to quit and need a safe place to fall. So, no it's not cool to put this off but I'm just saying that may be part of why she's not "remorseful" just yet. 

Also speaking as a person who was disloyal, I know for a while I wasn't too "remorseful" because on my end it felt like I tried and tried and tried to get attention, to not be 3rd or 4th best, to not be taken advantage of and it was all ignored and it seemed like "Who cares if you're hurt? I'm not changing." It was a little like "Oh if I'm hurt you're supposed to be all sorry, but if I hurt you why should I care or change" so my heart was a little shut down from being treated that way. Does that make sense? There may be a little bit of a level of that going on too, but to be honest we don't know for sure. I suspect so though...don't you?

So okay, here's my thought. I agree with Tanelorn on starting with the personality tests. If nothing else it will not clash with your respective therapies, and it may help identify some similarities, differences and ways that you communicate differently. They also give you great insight into YOU and into your own personal strengths and weaknesses. For example, Tanelorn is a Thinker and very analytical--I'm a Feeler and very empathetic. Can ya tell? :lol:

So start there and maybe let's go day by day okay?


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> Since you are starting from the bottom of a deep pit, things can look pretty bad - but there is always hope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> Hey betrayed~
> 
> Alright I'm jumping in over here and I'll do my best to help ya but a few "ground rules" okay? I will do my best to be honest with you and tell you "the truth in love" so to speak with respect, and if you have an issue I'm telling you to your face. I would appreciate that same level of respect returned because right now, I'm apprehensive about saying some things due to feeling a little like you called me immoral on that other thread. But let's move on and start new here and behave okay?
> 
> ...


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So she was self-destructing...which is typical for abuse victims. You have the power to save her from that pattern, by being the guiding light.

Stick with the IC, it's your best friend at this point.

A great book for both of you to read is Healing The Shame That Binds You, which will help make sense of toxic shame, a major factor in your lives most likely.

Also, if you want a really great therapist for marriage counseling, I can't recommend enough Dr Harley at marriagebuilders.com (or his daughter, also a counselor). They have a special way of just getting right to the point of the issues in your way, and giving you steps to take to get past them. Well worth the money.


----------



## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

betrayedhusband said:


> You are right, people respond out of guilt by being defensive. But there is another reason altogether. If they do not feel SAFE they will preemptively defend themselves. And this, I fear, is more likely the situation in which you find yourself.
> 
> *Please explain feeling SAFE. This has come up...she has told me that she does not feel SAFE with me.*


In relationship terms when speaking of "feeling safe" it refers generally to a feeling of trust in the other person that they will not hurt, belittle, make light of or otherwise injure you when you open up and are honest and completely up front with them. It is a trust that the person will care for and nurture you and not judge, condemn or become angry. 

I recomend a very good book that is helping my wife and I tremendously, called "Fighting for Your Marriage" by Markam, Stanley and Blumberg. One of the first principles in the book is that it is important to "Feel safe at home" and it deals with just this issue. It was a major issue my wife had before she could open up or be real with me when we started our healing. 



> Your are absolutely right. I love my wife and can see past all of the bad stuff....I know there is a beautiful, loving woman underneath all of the BS. Honestly, I want to look back 10...20 years from now and say that this was a blessing in disguise. I want to have a better marriage than we ever had. To openly show each other how much we love and care for each other every day. To love each other like today may be the last. True Love.


You sound very much like me, and I feel like I know you. That is just how I felt for my wife after learning about her multiple affairs, and it was not easy for either of us to learn to trust again. It takes some time. 



> Yes. She does have resentment against me. She feels I abondened her. When she confession to her infidelity the first question I asked is why didn't she just divorce me...or ask me to go to MC and work things out. Her reply - I thought you didn't care anymore and would just leave when you found out I was cheating.


This is very difficult. My wife also had hurts and resentments from my mistreatment of her in the past. As soon as I learned of her affiars I realized all of those hurts, in a way I had never seen them before, and in addition to the hurt and anger towards her, I was burdened with guilt and shame for my shortcomings. 

Like you I changed, in my case it was an overnight thing. I was a new man. But the point is that it took her some time to actually open up and believe and trust that I had changed, and in some ways she is still learning to trust in that. It is a trust that must be nurtured and not taken lightly. 

Can I ask you a question? Do either of the two of you have any religious convictions or spiritual involvement? Whether it be a church, or any sort of religious activity? Shared or not?


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

turnera said:


> So she was self-destructing...which is typical for abuse victims. You have the power to save her from that pattern, by being the guiding light.
> 
> Stick with the IC, it's your best friend at this point.
> 
> ...


Thanks for responding. I'm going to continue with IC...it has been helpful. I took a look at the marriagebuilders...interesting. I'm going to check out that book as well. Thanks again.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

HopeinHouston said:


> In relationship terms when speaking of "feeling safe" it refers generally to a feeling of trust in the other person that they will not hurt, belittle, make light of or otherwise injure you when you open up and are honest and completely up front with them. It is a trust that the person will care for and nurture you and not judge, condemn or become angry.
> 
> Thank you for the explanation. Sheds a lot of light on our situation and will help me to regain her trust...make her feel safe again.
> 
> ...


I consider myself spiritual but not religious. My wife is Catholic. Our family has been attending Catholic church weekly since our ordeal began. I do find comfort there even though I don't agree with everything the Catholic faith represents. When my wife admitted to her adultery the first thing she did was go to church and went to confession and confessed her adultery to the priest.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A lot of Catholics end up going to the Lutheran church, which kind of takes the bare bones of Catholicism, but is a LOT more liberal. That's what my husband's family did.

I have to say, though, that her confessing is a GOOD sign. 

No repair from adultery is possible without humility.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

turnera said:


> A lot of Catholics end up going to the Lutheran church, which kind of takes the bare bones of Catholicism, but is a LOT more liberal. That's what my husband's family did.
> 
> I have to say, though, that her confessing is a GOOD sign.
> 
> No repair from adultery is possible without humility.


I agree. It took a lot of courage for her to do that. At the time I was pretty messed up as it was only a few days after finding out about her infidelity. I look back now and agree that was a good sign.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

turnera said:


> A lot of Catholics end up going to the Lutheran church, which kind of takes the bare bones of Catholicism, but is a LOT more liberal. That's what my husband's family did.
> 
> I have to say, though, that her confessing is a GOOD sign.
> 
> No repair from adultery is possible without humility.



How does everyone feel about exposing my situation to my WW's family? In a nice way...concerned...showing I still love her and need their advice and support. Would this help in holding her accountable for her actions or make matters worse?

:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you are sure she is no longer cheating, you would not want to expose the affair - that will be seen as revenge.

However, you could ask her to go WITH you to tell her parents/family and ask for their support. If she were going to AA or some similar support group (and she should), they would tell her that admission and asking for forgiveness and help is one of the MOST important things she can do. She'll be scared, but you will be there with her supporting her. Unless they're totally dysfunctional, it will do her a world of good.


----------



## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

I personally do not think it's a good thing. One thing that helped my wife see just how much I loved and forgave her, was that despite all of the hurt and pain I have gone through, my one comment from the begining was "I don't want anyone to ever know, because I don't want them to look down on you or think less of you." And I mean it, and stand by it. I hope no one in either of our families who doesn't allready know (she told her sisters) will ever find out. I really don't want others to know. It's not their business, it is a personal matter between her and I. 

Now if she were continuing in the affair, refusing to cut it off, refusing to admit responsibility or work on our marriage - that would be a different matter. At that point some shame may be called for to show her the wrong that she had done. But if she has ended the affairs, and is seeking restoration with you I don't think that it is a good idea to go exposing the issue to others, no.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

HopeinHouston said:


> I personally do not think it's a good thing. One thing that helped my wife see just how much I loved and forgave her, was that despite all of the hurt and pain I have gone through, my one comment from the begining was "I don't want anyone to ever know, because I don't want them to look down on you or think less of you." And I mean it, and stand by it. I hope no one in either of our families who doesn't allready know (she told her sisters) will ever find out. I really don't want others to know. It's not their business, it is a personal matter between her and I.
> 
> Now if she were continuing in the affair, refusing to cut it off, refusing to admit responsibility or work on our marriage - that would be a different matter. At that point some shame may be called for to show her the wrong that she had done. But if she has ended the affairs, and is seeking restoration with you I don't think that it is a good idea to go exposing the issue to others, no.


Thanks for the replys Turnera and HIH. I pretty sure she isn't cheating since discovery....but I don't trust her so I'm not 100% sure. We are at the point now where we live day to day and we do not discuss what happened or what we can do to fix our relationship. We are both in IC...that's it. In the past when we have tried to discuss our feelings or the past is brought up she gets very defensive. For example....the 'Safe' thing. I was asking her how she could feel safe with a man she barely knew....and not me. She couldn't explain it. I turned around and told her I didn't feel safe with her....and with good reason. She didn't like that...wrote me a letter.....started talking about seperation....didn't happen...but that is the jist of any of our conversations. I have tried my hardest to be a good Husband and Father....to meet her emotional needs...show her I love her. She has not done the same. The closest thing I got to that was yesterday morning. She was out late Sat night with her girlfriends and didn't want to get up. She says to me 'can you get up with the kids....I'll give you sex later if you do'. That was special.

:scratchhead:


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Gag.

Then I would tell her that you want to go with her so she can tell her parents, or at least siblings. If she refuses, then tell her that you are going to go talk to them and ask for help, because the 'marriage' you have now is worthless and you're better off without her if she won't participate and let herself be vulnerable enough to take a look at her own weaknesses so she can fix them. Remind her that you will help her do this - together - but if she refuses to walk that walk with you, you will seek other ways.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

HopeinHouston said:


> I personally do not think it's a good thing. One thing that helped my wife see just how much I loved and forgave her, was that despite all of the hurt and pain I have gone through, my one comment from the begining was "I don't want anyone to ever know, because I don't want them to look down on you or think less of you." And I mean it, and stand by it. I hope no one in either of our families who doesn't allready know (she told her sisters) will ever find out. I really don't want others to know. It's not their business, it is a personal matter between her and I.
> 
> Now if she were continuing in the affair, refusing to cut it off, refusing to admit responsibility or work on our marriage - that would be a different matter. At that point some shame may be called for to show her the wrong that she had done. But if she has ended the affairs, and is seeking restoration with you I don't think that it is a good idea to go exposing the issue to others, no.


 HiH, I understand what you are saying. But the true test here is whether your wife is INDEED sorry for what she has done and IS working to correct her own flaws. 

If she is just covering up what she did and pretending it never happened, she WILL cheat again, without that humility that comes with owning up to her faults to the people who will love her no matter what - and support her and forgive her. Oftentimes, people who 'sin' or make mistakes NEED that forgiveness from their loved ones, to be able to break through to the next level of growth.

But only you and your wife know if your wife is 'faking' it.


----------



## HopeinHouston (Mar 1, 2010)

She didn't sin against them, she sinned against me. She has expressed her remorse and regret to me, there are checks of transparency and accountability - why should I let others look down on her, when I don't? I love her, I value her name and her honor and do not want it besmirched.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

As I said, if she is just covering up what she did and pretending it never happened, she just stopped because she got caught. There is no protection in that, no progress, no aha moment. If you truly believe she regrets what she has done, then there is no reason for it. 

bh's wife, on the other hand, seems to be just sweeping it all under the rug. In such a case, nothing is really resolved, and the next time someone catches her eye, she is likely to reingage. Because she never hit rock bottom; she never experienced humility; she just went underground. THAT is the case in which I advice bringing in the family.


----------



## betrayedhusband (Apr 17, 2010)

turnera said:


> As I said, if she is just covering up what she did and pretending it never happened, she just stopped because she got caught. There is no protection in that, no progress, no aha moment. If you truly believe she regrets what she has done, then there is no reason for it.
> 
> bh's wife, on the other hand, seems to be just sweeping it all under the rug. In such a case, nothing is really resolved, and the next time someone catches her eye, she is likely to reingage. Because she never hit rock bottom; she never experienced humility; she just went underground. THAT is the case in which I advice bringing in the family.



I've been over on the Marriage Builders board. A lot of people are saying EXPOSE...to family and friends.

I'm thinking about it....


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Here's the way I see it - and yes, I was 'trained' from marriagebuilders.

A marriage has to be built on honesty. If you stop being honest with each other, you start going in two separate directions, start keeping things from each other, stop being best friends. That's not a marriage; it's a convenience.

Therefore, if you get the sense that she is withholding from you, you DON'T have a marriage. So in your place, I would tell her that you NEED her to go to her family and tell all so that she can ask for forgiveness and understanding, and LET them help HER get through this and learn from it. 

If she is unwilling to do this, your marriage will never be good. You will spend the rest of your life as somewhat of an opponent. I get it, some people say it's none of their business. And some families are too dysfunctional to be of any help; that's your call.

Granted, it's really hard for some people to admit their faults. I get it. It's terrifying. But, just like people in AA, there is NO progress without admission, acceptance of your faults, and asking for forgiveness. Humility - and the grace that comes with forgiveness - are, IMO, essential for a truly happy life.

Therefore, back to you, if she is unwilling to admit what she did, your life will always be one of fear of the future. And, if she's acting like she doesn't want to do what YOU need to move forward - writing a No Contact letter that YOU send, counseling, access to all her passwords etc. WHENEVER you ask with NO griping or attitude, telling you where she goes, NO contact with other guys without you there..stuff like that - if it feels like she's only not cheating because she got caught or because she's hiding it better, then you may want to consider exposing. Only you know.

But only after you give HER the option of telling her family.

Just be sure you're not doing it to punish her. ONLY to ensure she is not cheating. Once she has crossed the line to your side, to understanding why she shouldn't do it, exposure is not called for. JMHO


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, I meant to ask, why is she going out late on a Saturday night with friends, after all this? Don't you have any rules in place now? Where did they go? Was alcohol involved? Were men in the same place? Then she shouldn't be going.

That's like finding out your kid stole a candy bar, and you just say 'Bad boy!' and let him keep eating it. As opposed to taking him back to the store, making him apologize, and work at the store to pay for the candy bar. 

Which one is more likely to steal again?


----------

