# PostNup Concerns



## TreyMD

Married 15 years, with 2 kids (12 and 13). 

**I can appreciate the comments about my marriage being over. It may be. But we are still working on things and the stress of dealing with this postnup is making things much harder. Maybe I am naive, as I am sure it appears that way looking in from the outside. Maybe when we tell each other we love each other, it is a lie, or maybe not enough to save our marriage. I don't know how this will end, but I am emotionally involved and still hope to stay together.**

My wife and I have had a rough three years or so. We both have strayed (my wife 3 years ago and me more recently) and luckily it was discovered before it got completely out of control. At the end of the day, we look at each other and forgive and try to move on. It has not been easy, as we both have given the other to be concerned about, lies, secrets, etc. We are working on it and seeing a counselor. Having kids and being busy, we neglected our marriage. This probably sounds familiar to some of you reading this. 

Anyway, recently we talked about getting a postnuptial agreement that would put some guardrails on our marriage. I thought we agreed that it should have an infidelity trigger. After she went to her attorney, it came back as a complete waiver of alimony and separate retirement accounts (with NO cheating clause). The draft postnup was very much written in my wife's favor (of course, since it was written by her attorney). It was given to me as an all-or-nothing ultimatum. And my hesitation is perceived by my wife as a lack of commitment. Pre/post-nups are such a crazy combination of emotional, financial, and legal interests, it is exhausting! The thing is, I work for the government and make 15% of what my wife does. We have about $600k in financial commitments over the next 10 years, between our kids' education funding and various debts. My wife's attorney claims that I am self-supporting, but I cannot afford to fund a secondary household for my 2 kids based on an average value house in my community. I was also a stay-at-home dad for 8 years. I missed out on retirement contributions and promotion opportunities. I feel coerced to sign. I feel backed into a corner.

Background (so happy this is anonymous... this is so embarrassing):
My wife sought to have a secret relationship, with clear intent for emotional and physical intimacy, outside of our marriage with a married patient that we both knew socially. She met with him privately although claimed that nothing occurred. She also encouraged at least 2 other men’s inappropriate attention through messaging and using social media, and in one case actively responded with her own sexually suggestive photos of herself in our bed. During this same time period, she also confided in her college friend that she wanted to reconnect with her (very significant) ex-boyfriend while on a trip to California and encouraged and facilitated her cousin’s cheating on her husband. My conduct equally violated our marriage commitment. I went to a “swingers” party by myself, became intoxicated, and fell asleep in my car without participating in anything sexual. I also met two women on an online dating site. I met with one privately, for dinner, and expressed an interest in meeting again, knowing that it would likely progress into something physical. I exchanged many flirtatious and suggestive messages with this woman. I also visited 4-5 adult massage parlors and received full body, adult massages over the past year.

Clearly we both have issues, and we have things missing from our marriage after neglecting it for years. We have a lot of work to do, and we both still love each other, despite our past conduct. I just have a difficult time understanding how I am facing a draft postnuptial that is so disproportionately skewed towards my wife.

In the meantime, I am working on me. I was disgusted at the path i was taking and the person i was becoming. Whatever happen to my marriage, I need to find my moral compass and be the stand-up guy I once was. 

Anyone have any thoughts? I am going a little crazy until I meet with my attorney next week. 

Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## Lila

@TreyMD, duplicate threads are not allowed on TAM. I've deleted your earlier one.


----------



## nekonamida

Don't sign the post nup she is offering and get your own lawyer. Don't ever sign one without an infidelity clause. Yes, you cheated too but that doesn't change the fact that your wife is lying to you about her infidelity and most likely has done a lot more than you know about given how bold she was to encourage her cousin to cheat.

Why do you want to stay with her? Do you believe that you can move on and become a healthy and safe partner yourself if she never fully comes clean and never takes full responsibility for her own cheating?


----------



## Tex X

Why do you need a postnup? Sounds like she has more to lose financially, so why would you sign something like that? You really need to get your attorney's input on this.


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> Married 15 years, with 2 kids (12 and 13) in Maryland.
> 
> My wife and I have had a rough three years or so. We both have strayed (my wife 3 years ago and me more recently) and luckily it was discovered before it got completely out of control. At the end of the day, we look at each other and forgive and try to move on. It has not been easy, as we both have given the other to be concerned about, lies, secrets, etc. We are working on it and seeing a counselor. Having kids and being busy, we neglected our marriage. This probably sounds familiar to some of you reading this.
> 
> Anyway, recently we talked about getting a postnuptial agreement that would put some guardrails on our marriage. I thought we agreed that it should have an infidelity trigger. After she went to her attorney, it came back as a complete waiver of alimony and separate retirement accounts (with NO cheating clause). The draft postnup was very much written in my wife's favor (of course, since it was written by her attorney). It was given to me as an all-or-nothing ultimatum. And my hesitation is perceived by my wife as a lack of commitment. Pre/post-nups are such a crazy combination of emotional, financial, and legal interests, it is exhausting! The thing is, I work for the government and make 15% of what my wife does. We have about $600k in financial commitments over the next 10 years, between our kids' education funding and various debts. My wife's attorney claims that I am self-supporting, but I cannot afford to fund a secondary household for my 2 kids based on an average value house in my community. I was also a stay-at-home dad for 8 years. I missed out on retirement contributions and promotion opportunities. I feel coerced to sign. I feel backed into a corner.
> 
> Background (so happy this is anonymous... this is so embarrassing):
> My wife sought to have a secret relationship, with clear intent for emotional and physical intimacy, outside of our marriage with a married patient that we both knew socially. She met with him privately although claimed that nothing occurred. She also encouraged at least 2 other men’s inappropriate attention through messaging and using social media, and in one case actively responded with her own sexually suggestive photos of herself in our bed. During this same time period, she also confided in her college friend that she wanted to reconnect with her (very significant) ex-boyfriend while on a trip to California and encouraged and facilitated her cousin’s cheating on her husband. My conduct equally violated our marriage commitment. I went to a “swingers” party by myself, became intoxicated, and fell asleep in my car without participating in anything sexual. I also met two women on an online dating site. I met with one privately, for dinner, and expressed an interest in meeting again, knowing that it would likely progress into something physical. I exchanged many flirtatious and suggestive messages with this woman. I also visited 4-5 adult massage parlors and received full body, adult massages over the past year.
> 
> Clearly we both have issues, and we have things missing from our marriage after neglecting it for years. We have a lot of work to do, and we both still love each other, despite our past conduct. I just have a difficult time understanding how I am facing a draft postnuptial that is so disproportionately skewed towards my wife.
> 
> In the meantime, I am working on me. I was disgusted at the path i was taking and the person i was becoming. Whatever happen to my marriage, I need to find my moral compass and be the stand-up guy I once was.
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts? I am going a little crazy until I meet with my attorney next week.
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!


You will have to discuss with your lawyer your options but I think a comparison is necessary of what you are entitled to if you divorced right now versus what your wife is proposing. I mean if you are going to get a better deal if you divorce now versus what the post nup purposes, and it is an all or nothing proposal, take the divorce. You can date your wife afterwards if you two are still on talking terms.


----------



## TreyMD

Thanks, I did not see it posted. Sorry about that!


----------



## TreyMD

nekonamida said:


> Don't sign the post nup she is offering and get your own lawyer. Don't ever sign one without an infidelity clause. Yes, you cheated too but that doesn't change the fact that your wife is lying to you about her infidelity and most likely has done a lot more than you know about given how bold she was to encourage her cousin to cheat.
> 
> Why do you want to stay with her? Do you believe that you can move on and become a healthy and safe partner yourself if she never fully comes clean and never takes full responsibility for her own cheating?


You raise a good point. I take full responsibility for my terrible choices recently, but I have to admit, I think in the back of my mind...I was so upset that she minimized her affair and I hated that. She never showed me her Snapchat app, and that is where the bulk of the serious communication occured, especiall during the last 2-3 weeks of the affair. Perhaps I was looking to get even, subconsciously? I hate what I became. It has only been 6 weeks, but since things were discovered, and I came clean, I have been able to look her in the eyes. I do love her. I do have a great deal of optimism. But also a healthy dose of concern. I know the odds are against us. She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


----------



## Tex X

TreyMD said:


> She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


She's trying to strong arm you into signing because she has way more to lose than you. I'd bet money that once you sign that postnup you'll be getting divorce papers very shortly thereafter. If you really make 15% of what she makes then you stand to gain a lot in the divorce.


----------



## Nucking Futs

TreyMD said:


> You raise a good point. I take full responsibility for my terrible choices recently, but I have to admit, I think in the back of my mind...I was so upset that she minimized her affair and I hated that. She never showed me her Snapchat app, and that is where the bulk of the serious communication occured, especiall during the last 2-3 weeks of the affair. Perhaps I was looking to get even, subconsciously? I hate what I became. It has only been 6 weeks, but since things were discovered, and I came clean, I have been able to look her in the eyes. I do love her. I do have a great deal of optimism. But also a healthy dose of concern. I know the odds are against us. *She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. * She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


Sounds like duress to me. Get this in an email. Also, her lawyer should be warning her that you need to be represented by a lawyer also, postnups where one person signs under duress without their own lawyer tend to get thrown out. But don't sign it hoping you can get it thrown out, if it's her postnup or divorce take the divorce. She wants it her way because she plans to leave you with nothing.


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> You raise a good point. I take full responsibility for my terrible choices recently, but I have to admit, I think in the back of my mind...I was so upset that she minimized her affair and I hated that. She never showed me her Snapchat app, and that is where the bulk of the serious communication occured, especiall during the last 2-3 weeks of the affair. Perhaps I was looking to get even, subconsciously? I hate what I became. It has only been 6 weeks, but since things were discovered, and I came clean, I have been able to look her in the eyes. I do love her. I do have a great deal of optimism. But also a healthy dose of concern. I know the odds are against us. She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


How long ago was your infidelity? How did she find out? Does she have evidence of it?

How long ago was her infidelity? How did you find out? Do you have evidence of it?


----------



## TreyMD

Tex X said:


> She's trying to strong arm you into signing because she has way more to lose than you. I'd bet money that once you sign that postnup you'll be getting divorce papers very shortly thereafter. If you really make 15% of what she makes then you stand to gain a lot in the divorce.


I have thought about that. She could be the one to have an affair the day after I sign this, and then she walks away with a sweet deal. Yes, I do make 15% of what she makes. Plus I was a stay-at-home dad for years. 

All I truly want is to be able to afford an average house in our community to establish a secondary household for our kids, and to fully fund my retirement. I am not looking for even a remotely equal lifestyle. That doesn't seem unreasonable. But her attorney it telling her than I am "self-supporting" and therefore not eligible for alimony. My wife now believes this and it is simply not correct. Maryland views several points of consideration with regards to alimony, not just self-supporting, which I also don't think I am.


----------



## TreyMD

Lila said:


> How long ago was your infidelity? How did she find out? Does she have evidence of it?
> 
> How long ago was her infidelity? How did you find out? Do you have evidence of it?


----------



## wilson

I can't see a good reason to sign a postnup where you're just giving up everything if she decides to divorce for whatever reason. I don't see this postnup as putting up guardrails. If it only was enforceable if adultery happened (as ruled by a neutral 3rd party), then that would be putting up guardrails. But here it looks like she wants out with everything. I wouldn't be surprised if she's setting it all up for an immediate divorce.

After what she did, if she's giving you an ultimatum of sign or divorce, take the divorce. The situation you describe is not one where a healthy marriage will easily emerge. It will take a significant amount of work by both of you to fix this. If this is her attitude now, it's not looking good. If you not signing the prenup is enough for her to file for divorce, there really isn't anything worth saving.


----------



## Tex X

I won't even pretend to know the divorce laws in Maryland, but it does sound like your wife is planning on leaving you and taking as much as she can with her. DO NOT agree to or sign anything until after you've had your meeting with your attorney next week.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Since both of you were unfaithful, any postnup needs to include an infidelity clause with scenarios for BOTH of you. You need an attorney to draw one up for you. DO NOT sign that crap she is trying to hand you. If it means divorce, then so be it, because what she is presenting is ridiculous and doesnt show good faith on her part.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TreyMD said:


> You raise a good point. I take full responsibility for my terrible choices recently, but I have to admit, I think in the back of my mind...I was so upset that she minimized her affair and I hated that. She never showed me her Snapchat app, and that is where the bulk of the serious communication occured, especiall during the last 2-3 weeks of the affair. Perhaps I was looking to get even, subconsciously? I hate what I became. It has only been 6 weeks, but since things were discovered, and I came clean, I have been able to look her in the eyes. I do love her. I do have a great deal of optimism. But also a healthy dose of concern. I know the odds are against us. She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


You need to talk to your lawyer, calm down and sign nothing. Of course it is going to be one sided, who in their right mind is going to be completely fair in the first right up? It is a back and forth until you compromise.

I am not saying it needs to be acrimonious, but do not capitulate to save a broken marriage that appears was never fixed.


What was her affair and then what was yours?

Edit to clarify:

She had an affair and wanted out, but she KNEW she had more to lose. Now, you gave her an out. That’s why I am asking about her affair and yours.

Again, if you don’t have a lawyer get one.


----------



## TreyMD

3Xnocharm said:


> Since both of you were unfaithful, any postnup needs to include an infidelity clause with scenarios for BOTH of you. You need an attorney to draw one up for you. DO NOT sign that crap she is trying to hand you. If it means divorce, then so be it, because what she is presenting is ridiculous and doesnt show good faith on her part.


She feels that my conduct is much worse than hers, and that she is the more injured party. She admits that this is in-part meant to punish me. I posted a pdf above that describes what we both did. We both were pretty terrible. But I would say pretty equally terrible. I am biases i guess.


----------



## TreyMD

phillybeffandswiss said:


> What was her affair and then what was yours?


I posted a pdf with a lengthy description in an earlier post.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TreyMD said:


> She feels that my conduct is much worse than hers, and that she is the more injured party. She admits that this is in-part meant to punish me. I posted a pdf above that describes what we both did. We both were pretty terrible. But I would say pretty equally terrible. I am biases i guess.


After reading the attachment, I disagree that yours is the worse of the two. SHE continues contact, which is crap, talk about things being one-sided. Hypocrite. I think you need to get away from her, personally. 

Oh and the fact that she refuses to let you see her Snapchat it proof enough to me that much more went on than she has described to you or that you discovered. Number one on the list of must-do's for reconciliation is transparency. You dont have that.


----------



## MJJEAN

TreyMD said:


> After she went to her attorney, it came back as a complete waiver of alimony and separate retirement accounts (with NO cheating clause). The draft postnup was very much written in my wife's favor (of course, since it was written by her attorney).
> 
> It was given to me as an all-or-nothing ultimatum.
> 
> The thing is, I work for the government and make 15% of what my wife does.


And you're confused?

If she leaves you she would likely have to pay alimony and a percentage of her other assets. If you sign, she can leave and keep all of her money.

Were I you, I'd suspect she's wanted to leave but stayed to preserve her finances. Now she sees a chance to get out of the marriage with her finances intact.


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> phillybeffandswiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> What was her affair and then what was yours?
> 
> 
> 
> I posted a pdf with a lengthy description in an earlier post.
Click to expand...

Based on the information you posted on that PDF, Your infidelities included meeting women on ****** ******* and happy endings at massage parlors.....just last month. Your wife's emotional infidelities were in 2016. Your wife has evidence that you cheated last month and most courts won't recognize her infidelities because you took her back after all that went down in 2016. 

You need to see an attorney ASAP especially if your state takes adultery into account when calculating division of assets and parental rights.


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long ago was your infidelity? How did she find out? Does she have evidence of it?
> 
> How long ago was her infidelity? How did you find out? Do you have evidence of it?
Click to expand...

Are you using real names and locations on your attachment? If so, please remove and redact the names before reposting.


----------



## TreyMD

Lila said:


> Are you using real names and locations on your attachment? If so, please remove and redact the names before reposting.


Can you erase those two posts? Not sure how to on my end! Thanks!


----------



## TreyMD

Lila said:


> Based on the information you posted on that PDF, Your infidelities included meeting women on ****** ******* and happy endings at massage parlors.....just last month. Your wife's emotional infidelities were in 2016. Your wife has evidence that you cheated last month and most courts won't recognize her infidelities because you took her back after all that went down in 2016.
> 
> You need to see an attorney ASAP especially if your state takes adultery into account when calculating division of assets and parental rights.


My state is a no-fault state, but still it is a very minor point of consideration of what caused the demise of the marriage.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TreyMD said:


> I posted a pdf with a lengthy description in an earlier post.


Yes, I see, it wasn’t added until 20 minutes after I posted. I thought I had actually missed something.

Thank you.


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the information you posted on that PDF, Your infidelities included meeting women on ****** ******* and happy endings at massage parlors.....just last month. Your wife's emotional infidelities were in 2016. Your wife has evidence that you cheated last month and most courts won't recognize her infidelities because you took her back after all that went down in 2016.
> 
> You need to see an attorney ASAP especially if your state takes adultery into account when calculating division of assets and parental rights.
> 
> 
> 
> My state is a no-fault state, *but still it is a very minor point of consideration of what caused the demise of the marriage.*
Click to expand...

You are so screwed if you keep believing this. Get a lawyer....today.


----------



## aquarius1

It's not really a contest of who had the worst infidelity. Your wife has absolutely no personal boundaries and neither do you.
I'm honestly not sure how you can save this marriage, more importantly, in the long run, wouldn't you both be better off apart?

And Trey, there is a deeper, more serious issue here. Your wife is a doctor? Her interactions with her patients/personal dr are inappropriate at best and worthy of charges and discipline by her governing medical body. 

Patient-dr relationships are GREATLY frowned upon and can result in discipline, up to and including suspension of practicing licence and/or criminal charges.

If I read your pdf correctly, there may be more than one reason that she doesn't want this to go to court, up to and including the exposure of her inappropriate relationships. 

Definitely get a lawyer. Male or female I would hope that you would be entitled to support for being a SAHD. 
The way this reads, you sign, followed by her slapping divorce papers down right after.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

TreyMD said:


> My state is a no-fault state, but still it is a very minor point of consideration of what caused the demise of the marriage.


Your wife has a lawyer...did she threaten you or something? Your reticence and excuses for not getting a lawyer make no sense.

You realize, you both screwed up. You love the idea of your old wife not the cheater. Personally, I do not believe she ever came back to the marriage.

For that matter, neither did you.


----------



## ButtPunch

You are being set up and manipulated.

Don't sign or agree to anything.

If she wants a divorce, then she wants a divorce.

If she doesn't then she doesn't.

No pre-nup is gonna change that.


----------



## TreyMD

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Your wife has a lawyer...did she threaten you or something? Your reticence and excuses for not getting a lawyer make no sense.
> 
> You realize, you both screwed up. You love the idea of your old wife not the cheater. Personally, I do not believe she ever came back to the marriage.
> 
> For that matter, neither did you.


I have a lawyer. I have had one for some time. What excuses have I made for not getting one. She has been out of town for 10 days and I have had an appointment scheduled for Monday for a while now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Yes, my fault. 

You kept asking all of these questions and didn’t answer if you had a lawyer. Each time it was raised you kept saying what HER lawyer stated, how it made you feel and how it hurt because she feels negative about your reluctance to sign.

Sounded like you didn’t have a lawyer. 



TreyMD said:


> I have a lawyer. I have had one for some time. What excuses have I made for not getting one. She has been out of town for 10 days and I have had an appointment scheduled for Monday for a while now.


----------



## aine

TreyMD said:


> She feels that my conduct is much worse than hers, and that she is the more injured party. She admits that this is in-part meant to punish me. I posted a pdf above that describes what we both did. We both were pretty terrible. But I would say pretty equally terrible. I am biases i guess.


For the love of God, your marriage is beyond repair. I pity the kids in the middle of this mess. Do not sign anything and file for divorce. Take her to the cleaners, she deserves it. Your behaviour though wrong was in response to her terrible adultery. Do what is best for you. Get a lawyer for yourself and file ASAP. Past behaviour is a good indication of her future behaviour. She is acting like many men who are the wage earners and feel entitled to treat their non working spouse like thrash even though they have contributed in kind to the family. Do not let this happen. She is not your friend. She is the enemy.


----------



## aine

TreyMD said:


> She feels that my conduct is much worse than hers, and that she is the more injured party. She admits that this is in-part meant to punish me. I posted a pdf above that describes what we both did. We both were pretty terrible. But I would say pretty equally terrible. I am biases i guess.


This kind of thing, there is no measuring. Your marriage is over.


----------



## TreyMD

Lila said:


> You will have to discuss with your lawyer your options but I think a comparison is necessary of what you are entitled to if you divorced right now versus what your wife is proposing.


This is exactly how I feel. The comparison is important. I think if she sees realistic divorce conditions, something a court would order, and not a complete waiver of alimony, she would see that I am not interested in taking her to the cleaners (in an agreed upon postnup). I would only be asking for very reasonable terms. Right now based on her attorney's advise, she seems to think that ANY alimony is unacceptable. I understand _feeling _that way., but that is just not realistic in my opinion. I have an attorney and meet with her on Monday. If my wife is not agreeable to a reasonable postnup, then it gets ugly. I don't want that, but it is not only up to me. Thanks for your comments. You offer good insight.


----------



## TreyMD

aine said:


> For the love of God, your marriage is beyond repair. I pity the kids in the middle of this mess. Do not sign anything and file for divorce. Take her to the cleaners, she deserves it. Your behaviour though wrong was in response to her terrible adultery. Do what is best for you. Get a lawyer for yourself and file ASAP. Past behaviour is a good indication of her future behaviour. She is acting like many men who are the wage earners and feel entitled to treat their non working spouse like thrash even though they have contributed in kind to the family. Do not let this happen. She is not your friend. She is the enemy.


I hear you when you say my marriage is beyond repair. It may well be. I don't want it to be, I love her and want to beat the odds and come out of this. But I also dont want to be in a marriage that is based on fear, if postnup terms crush me. I may be foolish, but I have a lawyer and an accountant. I am protecting my interests. 

When I mentioned to her last night that I felt like it was reasonable to end up with enough combined salary+ alimony income to fully fund my retirement ($19k/yr) and be able to pay on a 15 year mortgage on a house that it at or below the average value in my community, she felt that was excessive. These are basically the baseline terms that I would request to establish a secondary household for my kids and get my retirement caught up to where it should be. Retirement security for my kids' parents is good for both the parents and the kids. Last thing I ever want to be is a burden on my kids. I already feel terribly about putting them through this. I was a kid when my parents divorced. 

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## TreyMD

Nucking Futs said:


> Sounds like duress to me. Get this in an email. Also, her lawyer should be warning her that you need to be represented by a lawyer also, postnups where one person signs under duress without their own lawyer tend to get thrown out. But don't sign it hoping you can get it thrown out, if it's her postnup or divorce take the divorce. She wants it her way because she plans to leave you with nothing.


I asked her in a text, "If I don't sign, you would leave me?" and she answered, "yes." I have an attorney and I meet with her Monday. Great comment. Thx.


----------



## dubsey

If I were you, I'd simply say, "well, I guess we'll just have to go that route. It doesn't mean we can't be together in the future when we're both in a better place if it's something we both want."


----------



## BluesPower

TreyMD said:


> I asked her in a text, "If I don't sign, you would leave me?" and she answered, "yes." I have an attorney and I meet with her Monday. Great comment. Thx.


Yes, this right here was what I was wanting to see. 

YOU ARE BEING PLAYED!!!!!! 

My bet is she is cheating right now, and not emotionally, with either the same dude or more than likely a different one. 

Then you give her the gift of your affair that she can use to manipulate you and set you up. Which is exactly what she is doing. 

She hopes that you are stupid enough to sign this and then she will divorce you with most of her, read joint, money intact and you sucking hind teat.

File for divorce now...


----------



## Lila

TreyMD said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> You will have to discuss with your lawyer your options but I think a comparison is necessary of what you are entitled to if you divorced right now versus what your wife is proposing.
> 
> 
> 
> This is exactly how I feel. The comparison is important. I think if she sees realistic divorce conditions, something a court would order, and not a complete waiver of alimony, she would see that I am not interested in taking her to the cleaners (in an agreed upon postnup). I would only be asking for very reasonable terms. Right now based on her attorney's advise, she seems to think that ANY alimony is unacceptable. I understand _feeling _that way., but that is just not realistic in my opinion. I have an attorney and meet with her on Monday. If my wife is not agreeable to a reasonable postnup, then it gets ugly. I don't want that, but it is not only up to me. Thanks for your comments. You offer good insight.
Click to expand...

Keep us posted on what gets decided.


----------



## ButtPunch

BluesPower said:


> Yes, this right here was what I was wanting to see.
> 
> YOU ARE BEING PLAYED!!!!!!
> 
> My bet is she is cheating right now, and not emotionally, with either the same dude or more than likely a different one.
> 
> Then you give her the gift of your affair that she can use to manipulate you and set you up. Which is exactly what she is doing.
> 
> She hopes that you are stupid enough to sign this and then she will divorce you with most of her, read joint, money intact and you sucking hind teat.
> 
> File for divorce now...


I tend to agree with this.

She may or may not be cheating but that's irrelevant.

She doesn't love you anymore that's obvious and she doesn't want to pay you a dime.

I would just tell her a post nup is out of the question and to do what she has got to do.


s


----------



## BluesPower

ButtPunch said:


> I tend to agree with this.
> 
> She may or may not be cheating but that's irrelevant.
> 
> She doesn't love you anymore that's obvious and she doesn't want to pay you a dime.
> 
> I would just tell her a post nup is out of the question and to do what she has got to do.
> 
> 
> s


I agree completely, with the exception of this: I would just file for divorce now and end it. 

And I am pretty sure she is cheating, she wont let him see her phone and snap chat stuff, she is cheating...


----------



## AKA Broken Arrow

I think I can offer some insight here. I had a brief physical affair in 2015 which my wife discovered about 6 months after my AP had moved away. Upon discovery, my wife went PI, discovered all that she could, retained an attorney and filed. Shock and awe. She was kind enough to not have me served but she handed me the waiver of service herself and explained how it was going to work. She's a tough lady and she wasn't having this. We were getting divorced. 

After stumbling a bit, I did the work and thru therapy, books, rehab, 12 steps and she agreed to give me another chance about 2 years later. In between 2015-2017 while I was getting my **** together, she had her attorney draw up an iron-clad postnup. Like your wife, she makes about 3x my salary and I do ok but my lifestyle would have dramatically decreased. I was fine with that possibility, I didn't have much growing up so I was fine if I was going to die that way someday. I accepted it and I make enough to live a decent life. I didn't retain an attorney but I had a few consultations with one. I thought the postnup was fair since I was the one that cheated and she was faithful. We'd split our primary residence and I'd get half of our savings. A small amount of her retirement but the second home was hers. They even put in the postnup that even though I had not retained an attorney, I had consulted with one and he read the agreement. My attorney did read it, and suggested I not sign it just based on the fact that these documents can create an imbalance in the marriage and one spouse might be more likely to walk away for no reason other than they wanted to. Even though the document said that I wasn't signing the agreement under duress, she was pressuring me to sign. I asked about an infidelity clause and she said "there's no ****ing way is that's enforceable" so that wasn't happening. One night she even said "if you don't sign this, you'll be signing other paperwork.." 

Once cooler heads prevailed and we were in a better place, I explained my side of it. How our money has always been combined since the day we moved in together. We moved in together while she was in grad school and I opened a joint account where all of the money went. I left my hometown to support her while she completed her degree. It's always been one pot for the money and we've both always been responsible with it so she knew I wasn't about to do anything stupid. I didn't sign it and we're still together. Our relationship can still be rocky at times but we both communicate much better overall and we're going to make it. Good luck.


----------



## TreyMD

AKA Broken Arrow said:


> I didn't sign it and we're still together. Our relationship can still be rocky at times but we both communicate much better overall and we're going to make it. Good luck.


Wow. This is very much a best case scenario for me. You basically went through what I am facing. I am getting 'sign or i will leave you' right now. How on earth did you get your wife to wait out the storm? Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It gives me hope that we can beat the odds.


----------



## BluesPower

TreyMD said:


> Wow. This is very much a best case scenario for me. You basically went through what I am facing. I am getting 'sign or i will leave you' right now. How on earth did you get your wife to wait out the storm? Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It gives me hope that we can beat the odds.


Are you really that naïve? See the difference is his wife did not cheat that he knows. 

In his case, his wife appeared to be honest about wanting to protect herself. 

Your wife, could be banging some guy this afternoon for all you know, because she is secretive with her phone. 

People that have affairs, usually, are not secretive with phones, and they expect their spouse to do the same. 

OK, you have an affair, you are a bad person. Your wife had an affair, physical or not, likely physical now. 

You sir are being played. What part of that do you not understand? 

Are you wanting to allow yourself to be screwed over?


----------



## jlg07

Why don't you have a lawyer write up an equally unfair postnup in YOUR favor and present it to HER with the same ultimatum? What do you think she would do?

Have you had your kids DNA checked? The reason I ask is that your wife didn't "cheat" once. She has the complete mindset of a serial cheater, and I would guess that she HAS cheated before, but just that you didn't find out. She covers for people, encourages THEM to cheat, and does cheated/wanted to MULTIPLE times. This is NOT a woman who is remorseful for what she has done. I think YOU should get a lawyer and look into divorce -- you need to get your game plan together in case SHE pulls the trigger. You don't want to be surprised or caught off-guard.


----------



## aquarius1

TreyMD said:


> Wow. This is very much a best case scenario for me. You basically went through what I am facing. I am getting 'sign or i will leave you' right now. How on earth did you get your wife to wait out the storm? Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It gives me hope that we can beat the odds.


Sir. There are at least 4 cases that you know of. J C D and D2 Those are just the ones that you know. She has you convinced that this is all your fault while she's been living the life of a single woman for YEARS.

Please stop doing this to yourself. She is NOT the injured party here. You just feel bad because you had morals once and stepped outside of them when you cheated. She has no such claim if she's actively looking up old boyfriends and encouraging family members to cheat.

If you want to be her whipping boy, I wish you all the best. You may save some money and your "marriage", but it's going to cost you your soul.


----------



## jlg07

IN addition, you are still madly in love with your wife. WELL, I think you are in love with who you THINK she is, not who she really is.

If she wants to force the post nup, then say fine, I guess I will have to go to the medical boards with the proof that you were involved with your patients.
YOU need to make plans that are best for YOU and your kids and DO NOT "I want to be equal on this". You need to do what is best. If she makes that kind of money, she can pay you alimony and go out tomorrow and buy a big house without it affecting HER at all.

She really sounds entitled (I have NOT read the attachment yet -- may have more to say after that).

EDT: Ok read the attachment -- you REALLY need to DNA your kids. Good Lord how many men in such a short time, many of those are violating her mandates as a Dr. She is blowing smoke up your keister if you think she wants to give that up. She clearly has NO boundaries on HER side of the marriage -- just on yours. REALLY make sure your lawyer is up to protecting you and can turn shark...


----------



## AKA Broken Arrow

BluesPower said:


> Are you really that naïve? See the difference is his wife did not cheat that he knows.
> 
> In his case, his wife appeared to be honest about wanting to protect herself.


That's true, she assured me that we were reconciling and the agreement would remain in a drawer once it's signed and I believed her when she said that. As a matter of fact, I would still honor the agreement if we did eventually divorce even though I didn't sign. I wouldn't want to hurt her financially if we split.


----------



## Diana7

TreyMD said:


> You raise a good point. I take full responsibility for my terrible choices recently, but I have to admit, I think in the back of my mind...I was so upset that she minimized her affair and I hated that. She never showed me her Snapchat app, and that is where the bulk of the serious communication occured, especiall during the last 2-3 weeks of the affair. Perhaps I was looking to get even, subconsciously? I hate what I became. It has only been 6 weeks, but since things were discovered, and I came clean, I have been able to look her in the eyes. I do love her. I do have a great deal of optimism. But also a healthy dose of concern. I know the odds are against us. She has said that if I dont sign the postnup as is, she will leave me. She sees my hesitation as not being committed. That is hard to hear.


So she is being threatening and controlling and manipulating. That's not good at all. You must get legal advise, that proposal from her is incredibly unfair and one sided. If she does leave, well what does that say about her. 
Just say that she has got legal advise and so will you. That you are committed, but she is being threatening.


----------



## aquarius1

Again I say.
You not only have incredible leverage but a CIVIC responsibility to report her to her governing medical body. Her professional behaviour is abhorrent and worthy of losing a licence over. Swing that past her.

And don't get me started on her PERSONAL behaviour.


----------



## Lostinthought61

you would be a fool to sign it...if that is the ultimatum i would drop it, and take your chances, clearly it looks like your wife is trying to aiming your marriage at a course set for divorce and she is getting the ammo ready now. you my friend are in serious trouble


----------



## Adelais

The post nup needs an infidelity clause. Insist that she adds it. If she throws a fit, then you know she is either cheating still, or planning to cheat in the future.

I understand her anger over your going to massage parlors. While I'm not condoning her behavior AT ALL, she had affairs with normal people, you had sex with sleezy prostitutes, who are at great risk of getting diseases and spreading them. She had emotional connections with her bangees, and you paid strangers.

Both of your behaviors are abhorant, but they are not exactly the same.

The infidelity clause needs to be there for both your sakes.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Will be interesting to hear how your meeting with your lawyer goes on Monday!

Make sure your lawyer knows that she cheated with a patient. 

The post nup is supposed to be fair to both parties. 

Would be interesting to hear her response if you asked to include a clause that the Post Nup doesn't come into effect until 2021. That you want to ensure that the marriage has a chance of getting back on track. I have a feeling she would throw a fit, because her actions make me think that she plans to divorce you as soon as you sign. I am not saying to agree to that (as she would just bide her time until 2021), just would be interesting to see how she would react to the suggestion.


----------



## TreyMD

Adelais said:


> You had sex with sleezy prostitutes, who are at great risk of getting diseases and spreading them.


Not that it matters, as far as how guilty I feel, but there was no sex on my end. Just extremely inappropriate contact. Still terrible behavior. And the meeting the last woman, if she wanted to have sex, I probably would have. She was not a prostitute, just another lonely spouse that was looking to cheat.


----------



## TreyMD

aquarius1 said:


> Again I say.
> You not only have incredible leverage but a CIVIC responsibility to report her to her governing medical body.


Leverage, perhaps. I don't want it to get to that point. I have no intention of taking advantage of her, even if things get really bad. But if things do get bad, it is nice to have leverage to make sure fairness happens. 

She is an attractive female doctor and always gets gifts or mixtape type presents from her patients. 

I want us both to understand what divorce looks like if done fairly. Then we both can see that we are better off together, working on things. I hear the comments about "it is over" which it easy to say looking in from the outside. We are very emotionally connected, even though we have been terrible. Ironically, aside from all this, which is a result of neglecting our marriage for years, we do complement each other well. I do not like the manipulation and pressure she is putting on me at the moment, but I think much of that is based on her attorney. 

I want to do what it takes to not only resolve the infidelity issues between us, but the root causes. I still have hope, but that may all change depending on how things go in the coming weeks. Thanks for your comments!


----------



## jlg07

TreyMD said:


> Leverage, perhaps. I don't want it to get to that point. I have no intention of taking advantage of her, even if things get really bad. But if things do get bad, it is nice to have leverage to make sure fairness happens.
> 
> She is an attractive female doctor and always gets gifts or mixtape type presents from her patients.
> 
> I want us both to understand what divorce looks like if done fairly. Then we both can see that we are better off together, working on things. I hear the comments about "it is over" which it easy to say looking in from the outside. We are very emotionally connected, even though we have been terrible. Ironically, aside from all this, which is a result of neglecting our marriage for years, we do complement each other well. I do not like the manipulation and pressure she is putting on me at the moment, but I think much of that is based on her attorney.
> 
> I want to do what it takes to not only resolve the infidelity issues between us, but the root causes. I still have hope, but that may all change depending on how things go in the coming weeks. Thanks for your comments!


I don't think you are going to be able to "resolve the infidelity issues" -- has she been remorseful? SHE IS STILL IN CONTACT with her APs - so NO, she isn't remorseful and hasnt done ANY work to end her affairs. You really need to open your eyes. I think she is BSing you into thinking you are emotionally connected so that she will have the upper hand in your marriage and in a divorce. You REALLY need to rethink your process here and SEE HER for who she really is. It's NOT a lovey-dovey wife.


----------



## wilson

TreyMD said:


> But if things do get bad, it is nice to have leverage to make sure fairness happens.
> ...
> I do not like the manipulation and pressure she is putting on me at the moment, but I think much of that is based on her attorney.


If you decide to stick this out, you need to not have such an adversarial relationship. There shouldn't be things like leverage and manipulation like this between spouses. Spouses should be a team. Make sure you are striving to build a strong, healthy, loving marriage rather than a relationship that is in a standoff. I'm sure you both can build in enough poison pills so that divorce will mean mutually assured destruction, but that would be wasting your life in a toxic relationship.


----------



## SunCMars

If you are not on permanent disability and are mostly healthy you are self sufficient. If you have a college degree or have completed an apprenticeship, you are even more self sufficient.

Tell us why (if) you disagree with this assessment.


----------



## SunCMars

I smell greenbacks given off by your wife.

Her giving you an ultimatum is the ultimate betrayal. She has been taught, and coached well.

She does not have your best interests in mind.
She has not for some time.

She lost all respect for you a number of years ago.

Why would you even want to get back with her? 
She is a scorpion.

I sense it.
I feel it.
I know it.



Lilith-


----------



## SunCMars

TreyMD said:


> Leverage, perhaps. I don't want it to get to that point. I have no intention of taking advantage of her, even if things get really bad. But if things do get bad, it is nice to have leverage to make sure fairness happens.
> 
> She is an attractive female doctor and always gets gifts or mixtape type presents from her patients.
> 
> I want us both to understand what divorce looks like if done fairly. Then we both can see that we are better off together, working on things. I hear the comments about "it is over" which it easy to say looking in from the outside. We are very emotionally connected, even though we have been terrible. Ironically, aside from all this, which is a result of neglecting our marriage for years, we do complement each other well. I do not like the manipulation and pressure she is putting on me at the moment, but I think much of that is based on her attorney.
> 
> I want to do what it takes to not only resolve the infidelity issues between us, but the root causes. I still have hope, but that may all change depending on how things go in the coming weeks. Thanks for your comments!


Such a nice man you are...really are. Kudos.

The world eats your type up for lunch.

Harden your heart, or prepare to get consumed.

I hope to God, that you are NOT bending so low at the waist, primarily for the money and the great lifestyle she provides.

Look me in the eyes and tell me that this is NOT your real motivation!



King Alroy-


----------



## TreyMD

SunCMars said:


> If you are not on permanent disability and are mostly healthy you are self sufficient. If you have a college degree or have completed an apprenticeship, you are even more self sufficient.
> 
> Tell us why (if) you disagree with this assessment.


We have $600k in commitments over the next 10 years, that is $300k each under the current draft postnuptial. I make $85k and require food water and shelter. Please do the math. I would be instantly underwater.


----------



## SunCMars

TreyMD said:


> We have $600k in commitments over the next 10 years, that is $300k each under the current draft postnuptial. I make $85k and require food water and shelter. Please do the math. I would be instantly underwater.


No, you both would be underwater.

Commitments to what, future college costs, mortgage payments, daily living costs,what?

There is such a thing called common sense in spending.
If you owe money, it is money owed not yet collected.

Forcing yourself into debt is madness.

If all else fails there is bankruptcy.

You fear debt more than your wife's substantial character deficit.

Talk to your attorney. He will quell many of your fears.



KB-


----------



## SunCMars

You are willing to eat poop in the stark dark rather than standing, fresh breath, in the Sun.

The hell with money, you are young enough to start over.

Start over with a worthy gal.


QN-


----------



## SunCMars

Is 300K-600K worth more than your life?

You will have a miserable life with this woman, a life not really worth living.


----------



## aquarius1

TreyMD said:


> Leverage, perhaps. I don't want it to get to that point. I have no intention of taking advantage of her, even if things get really bad. But if things do get bad, it is nice to have leverage to make sure fairness happens.
> 
> She is an attractive female doctor and always gets gifts or mixtape type presents from her patients.
> 
> I want us both to understand what divorce looks like if done fairly. Then we both can see that we are better off together, working on things. I hear the comments about "it is over" which it easy to say looking in from the outside. We are very emotionally connected, even though we have been terrible. Ironically, aside from all this, which is a result of neglecting our marriage for years, we do complement each other well. I do not like the manipulation and pressure she is putting on me at the moment, but I think much of that is based on her attorney.
> 
> I want to do what it takes to not only resolve the infidelity issues between us, but the root causes. I still have hope, but that may all change depending on how things go in the coming weeks. Thanks for your comments!


Perhaps I stated it wrong. Everyone seems to be focusing on the leverage part.

You have a personal responsibility to report disgraceful, dishonorable or unprofessional behaviour of a physician. Getting gifts during the holidays or a mixtape is not the same as sending and receiving sexually suggestive photos of yourself or having intimate personal conversations with a PATIENT.

Hey to each their own. 
But in my years as a partner in the medical field and a patient, I would want to know if my Dr was engaging in behaviour that would make me want to think twice about them.

Wishing you the best with this situation.

Later comment: You are truly deluding yourself. You talk about fairness, yet she is anything but fair. 

After years of NO personal (and professional) boundaries, she seeks to literally screw you over by threatening you into signing a document that would leave you with nothing in a divorce. 

Everyone else can see it but you. We all see that the divorce papers would quickly follow.

We are hoping that you do not allow this to happen to yourself and your children.

Deep down inside you feel that you should pay for your moral mistakes. I dare say that she doesn't feel the same.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

This is a thread with a broken man. No, your massage parlor crap was wrong. No, I normally don’t excuses this behavior, but this isn’t a marriage.

Your wife has been doing crap for years and towards the end you get releases at massage parlors. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Still, the massage parlor has ZERO emotional attachment, no love and is a paid service. Nope, not right. You were still wrong. You have NO idea about her emotions, feelings or love in any of these situations. HUGE difference.

Multiple affairs and with patients.

Tell us what your lawyer states after you see him. Stop thinking you can save a maariage that never existed and was one sided.


----------



## aquarius1

phillybeffandswiss said:


> this is a thread with a broken man. No, your massage parlor crap was wrong. No, i normally don’t excuses this behavior, but this isn’t a marriage.
> 
> Your wife has been doing crap for years and towards the end you get releases at massage parlors. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Still, the massage parlor has zero emotional attachment, no love and is a paid service. Nope, not right. You were still wrong. You have no idea about her emotions, feelings or love in any of these situations. Huge difference.
> 
> Multiple affairs and with patients.
> 
> Tell us what your lawyer states after you see him. Stop thinking you can save a maariage that never existed and was one sided.


^^^^^^^. Qft ^^^^^^^^


----------



## FalCod

TreyMD said:


> I have thought about that. She could be the one to have an affair the day after I sign this, and then she walks away with a sweet deal. Yes, I do make 15% of what she makes. Plus I was a stay-at-home dad for years.


Whoa! You are thinking about signing a post-nup with a known cheater that gives her a better settlement than she would get if you divorced her now? That doesn't seem like a wise course of action. If the post-nup has hugely punitive damages for whichever of you cheats, it might be in your interest. If it doesn't, what is the point?

What are you trying to accomplish with the post-nup? 

You shouldn't sign anything that isn't in your best interests. If she is pushing you hard to sign this, I'd question whether she is acting in good faith. It might be time to cut your losses.


----------



## TreyMD

FalCod said:


> What are you trying to accomplish with the post-nup?


Initially, when it was discussed, the intent was to create guardrails on our marriage. I was under the impression that these were for both of us, and that the cheating clause in a postnup would identify it as such. I got the postnup... no cheating clause for each of us, not even one for me. It was basically just a waiver of alimony and we get what each has in our named retirement accounts (I have less than her).

She seems to think that what I did was way worse than what she did, not sure that it really matters, but she feels disproportionately injured and that I need to be punished. That is why the draft postnup is so unfair. 

So, I am not happy about how what originally was intended to help our marriage and reconciliation has now turned into a completely unfair/unbalanced postnup. 

I see my attorney today. I have an accountant as well. I have a therapist too. I am all-in on fixing this, but my eyes are open too. What she is trying to do, and what she feels is fair is very concerning, but much of it is based on what her attorney is telling her. I think he want to handle a divorce, not just a postnup. 

Thanks!


----------



## Tex X

She's effectively negotiating divorce settlement terms under the guise of a 'postnup'. It's a power play - she is using your marriage as leverage against you. She has no intention on staying with you. I would put money on divorce papers being served before the ink is even dry on the postnup.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TreyMD said:


> Initially, when it was discussed, the intent was to create guardrails on our marriage. I was under the impression that these were for both of us, and that the cheating clause in a postnup would identify it as such. I got the postnup... no cheating clause for each of us, not even one for me. It was basically just a waiver of alimony and we get what each has in our named retirement accounts (I have less than her).
> 
> She seems to think that what I did was way worse than what she did, not sure that it really matters, but she feels disproportionately injured and that I need to be punished. That is why the draft postnup is so unfair.


Yeah this does not sound at all like what we usually see regarding a post-cheating agreement. The way this reads to me is that she is looking to get out of dodge and just not have to pay you a thing. I feel like your reconciliation is one sided, and it is good you didnt sign this crap. You should be bracing yourself for her to file.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Right come on now. She doesn’t want to pay you alimony or child support and her lawyer has told her you are self sustaining. Bull crap. They are worried what will happen if it goes to court. 

This is for a judge to decide not you, not her and not the lawyers. The lawyers advise and recommend options.


----------



## FeministInPink

AKA Broken Arrow said:


> That's true, she assured me that we were reconciling and the agreement would remain in a drawer once it's signed and I believed her when she said that. As a matter of fact, I would still honor the agreement if we did eventually divorce even though I didn't sign. I wouldn't want to hurt her financially if we split.


How can you believe anything this woman tells you? Your entire marriage has been built on lies. I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and agree that she's taking advantage of your good nature, and she will file for divorce as soon as you sign that postnup. Don't fall for this and sign the paperwork. Call her bluff and see if she is actually serious about saving this marriage. I don't think she is.

How did the meeting with your lawyer go?

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## Wolfman1968

TreyMD said:


> Initially, when it was discussed, the intent was to create guardrails on our marriage. I was under the impression that these were for both of us, and that the cheating clause in a postnup would identify it as such. I got the postnup... no cheating clause for each of us, not even one for me. It was basically just a waiver of alimony and we get what each has in our named retirement accounts (I have less than her).
> 
> She seems to think that what I did was way worse than what she did, not sure that it really matters, but she feels disproportionately injured and that I need to be punished. That is why the draft postnup is so unfair.
> 
> So, I am not happy about how what originally was intended to help our marriage and reconciliation has now turned into a completely unfair/unbalanced postnup.
> 
> I see my attorney today. I have an accountant as well. I have a therapist too. I am all-in on fixing this, but my eyes are open too. What she is trying to do, and what she feels is fair is very concerning, but much of it is based on what her attorney is telling her. I think he want to handle a divorce, not just a postnup.
> 
> Thanks!


 DON'T SIGN THE POSTNUP!

Even if your attorney says it's OK, don't believe it. Get additional opinions from other lawyers. Make sure they are top notch shark lawyers.

Look, by definition, the purpose of the post-nup is so that she'll come out better than if she divorced you right now without one. Think about that. You can ONLY do worse with a post-nup. Why would she make a post-nup in which you get a better deal than you would right now? She wouldn't!

Doing some simple math, if you make about 15% of your wife's salary, she must be doing about $550 or more. I work with Doctors and Nurses every day in my career, and am well-acquainted with the ins and outs of not only their professional lives, but their social lives too. With that salary she would typically be either a well-rewarded surgical specialist, a radiologist (including interventional or radiation oncology), or a procedural specialist like a cardiologist. She wouldn't be a primary care doc. These specialists are more used to giving instructions and having them obeyed, because they tend to do very life-and-death types of interventions. I would anticipate she would have a more decisive manner and a personality that would take control. I kind of see that with the "take it or it's over" kind of deal she is presenting you. 

I didn't go over your PDF attachment (I am security-paranoid on these downloads), but from what you posted, it seems she has a very entitled personality. The way she treated you and the way she PLANS to cheat without remorse is the giveaway. But couple that with the aggressive interventional physician personality I detailed above, and you have a VERY dangerous mix. 

Look, if she's going to accuse you of being "uncommitted" to the relationship by your hesitation to sign the post-nup, I would say she is 1000x more "uncommitted" with her "take it or leave" attitude. 

This situation has more red flags than a Chinese May Day parade. 

DO NOT SIGN THE POST-NUP. Take your chances. If she REALLY cares for you, she will stick. If she walks, then she was never really committed anyway, and the relationship is doomed regardless.


----------



## TreyMD

Wolfman1968 said:


> Doing some simple math, if you make about 15% of your wife's salary, she must be doing about $550 or more.


Not too far off, and yes, she is a high demand surgical specialty. She is absolutely a type-A. I have always been a subordinate, which was accentuated during my time as a stay at home dad. Truth is, I am okay with this power dynamic as long as we don't take advantage of each other (which yes, has happened). But I am subtle in my strength and will not be walked on when it counts.


----------



## TreyMD

***Attorney UPDATE***
I did not sign. My attorney advised me that if she recommended that I sign, it would be malpractice. She felt that my wife's attorney knew I would not sign. I went into the meeting knowing i was not going to sign. In fact, I sent my lawyer an email 2-weeks prior saying as much.

Recommendation: Call her bluff. Tell her that you will not sign a postnup, but if she wanted to negotiate a separation agreement we could. She said that if we both were on the same page (which we are not) we could get a mediator to put something together for about $1500-2000. OR we could have the attorney's hash it our for $3000-6000. If no meeting of the minds occurred (which is very possible), and she wanted to pursue divorce, we would probably need experts and the total legal fees could be $50k+. I briefly told my wife this and said that my attorney would be in touch with her attorney and more eloquently express my position. I told her that the document she gave me does nothing to help our marriage. I told her that THAT was the only thing I am willing to work on (the marriage, not the extinguishment of it). I told her I loved her, but without good-faith negotiations, I will not productively participate in our marriage's demise (anymore than my violations of her trust already have) ... So that is where I left it last night.

This morning, I got a text message: "I love you. I think I just need to swallow my pride a bit. I don't think we view the past 3 years similarly and that is causing friction. I still want to move forward. I am still hurt."

So perhaps now the heavy lifting begins. We have a lot to work on. We are damaged goods. The outlook is not great, but we have nearly 17 years together, kids, and through all our misdeeds, we love each other. Love: That is not a terrible place to start rebuilding.

Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate every one, even the ones that hurt a bit. I know you all are trying to help me keep things in perspective, and that means a lot.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Eyes wide open!!!!


----------



## 3Xnocharm

TreyMD said:


> This morning, I got a text message: "I love you. I think I just need to swallow my pride a bit. I don't think we view the past 3 years similarly and that is causing friction. I still want to move forward. I am still hurt."
> 
> So perhaps now the heavy lifting begins. We have a lot to work on. We are damaged goods. The outlook is not great, but we have nearly 17 years together, kids, and through all our misdeeds, we love each other. Love: That is not a terrible place to start rebuilding.
> 
> Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate every one, even the ones that hurt a bit. I know you all are trying to help me keep things in perspective, and that means a lot.


Make sure the first thing she does is cut all contact with all other previous AP's and whatever other men she is interacting with. Best of luck to you, you two have a rough road ahead.


----------



## Marc878

TreyMD said:


> This morning, I got a text message: "I love you. I think I just need to swallow my pride a bit. I don't think we view the past 3 years similarly and that is causing friction. I still want to move forward. I am still hurt."
> 
> So perhaps now the heavy lifting begins. We have a lot to work on. We are damaged goods. The outlook is not great, but we have nearly 17 years together, kids, and through all our misdeeds, we love each other. Love: That is not a terrible place to start rebuilding.
> 
> Thanks for all the comments. I appreciate every one, even the ones that hurt a bit. I know you all are trying to help me keep things in perspective, and that means a lot.


Sounds like she's just switching tactics. Id take that with a grain of salt. If you're smart you'll start solidifying your future. Two wrongs never make a right so you know not to go down the infidelity path again no matter what she's done or does.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Don't put too much stock in what she says, pay attention to what she does.


----------



## aquarius1

Not saying that she doesn't want to try. But she has such a poor track record of going off the rails with MULTIPLE people.
It may be her go to behaviour, given the nature of her profession (the arrogance comes with the job)

Tread carefully, work hard, EYES WIDE OPEN. Don't be duped. And please, no matter how sweet she is, don't sign a POST NUP


----------



## Wolfman1968

And, for the record, I want to make it clear that I (and others, I am sure) do not condone the OP's own infidelity. In fact, the OP himself doesn't condone it. 

We are just helping the OP in two areas: 
1) avoiding getting railroaded with a one-sided post-nup (and it sounds like he dodged that)
2) if he and his wife DO want to try to rebuild the marriage, the wife has to come to terms with her own behavior. Everyone, including the OP and the wife, are agreed that the OP's infidelity is horrible. However, the OP's wife is not coming to terms/coming clean about her own infidelity. 

(I say this pre-emptively to avoid any misunderstanding and to avoid incorrect accusations about posters having double standards with the reversal of the traditional gender dynamic in the OP's marriage.)


----------



## manfromlamancha

The stunt she pulled with the postnup (and yes, it was a stunt) should tell you to be extremely careful going forward, love or no love. And I can't help but feel that this is stunt number 2, the first having failed.


----------



## aquarius1

Wolfman1968 said:


> And, for the record, I want to make it clear that I (and others, I am sure) do not condone the OP's own infidelity. In fact, the OP himself doesn't condone it.
> 
> We are just helping the OP in two areas:
> 1) avoiding getting railroaded with a one-sided post-nup (and it sounds like he dodged that)
> 2) if he and his wife DO want to try to rebuild the marriage, the wife has to come to terms with her own behavior. Everyone, including the OP and the wife, are agreed that the OP's infidelity is horrible. However, the OP's wife is not coming to terms/coming clean about her own infidelity.
> 
> (I say this pre-emptively to avoid any misunderstanding and to avoid incorrect accusations about posters having double standards with the reversal of the traditional gender dynamic in the OP's marriage.)


This is critical going forward. Cheating is cheating.
I guess people are coming down harder on her because, as you say, she hasn’t OWNED hers.
TreyMD is trying to gain some personal insight.

I'm doubtful, but i hope they work things out. Just don't want him to get bamboozled, as i just have this feeling in my gut that something is not quite right here...


----------



## TreyMD

Wolfman1968 said:


> However, the OP's wife is not coming to terms/coming clean about her own infidelity.


There is a lot of truth in this statement. She refers to her past violations as "just an email," and said it was nothing more than a fantasy and the email meant nothing sexual. My attorney, who is a woman, read it and said it sounded like she loved him. How am I supposed to heal and recover when she is not upfront about her issues (not just the one BIG one, but all the other cries for attention too)? I admitted to everything. I even volunteered that I intended for it to go further. I explained why I did it. I embrace any/all measures she wishes to use to keep tabs on me. This is completely the opposite of how she responded, and that will come out in therapy; hopefully in a way that doesn't make her defensive or just shut down. 

I bounced the idea of writing a Marriage Agreement, a non-legal list of guidelines and expectations. She likes it. It covers implied topics that we both have disregarded in the past. It talks about transparency, the need for attention, encouraging other's advances, secret website/app memberships, physical needs, etc. We need to view geographic tracking apps, and open devices as not a privacy violation, but as a demonstration of how important our marriage is. I want this accountability. I know I need it. We are seeing a counselor. We are going to church together. We have a long way to go to heal, rebuilt trust, and rebuild respect.

I also know that if things continue to unravel, I need to work on me. I need to be the man my kids can look up to. I need to be the man with whom someone would want a relationship. Most importantly, I need to be able to look in the mirror with no *additional* regrets. I cannot control what my wife does, but I can control who I become after all of this mess. 

Thanks for the comment.


----------



## BluesPower

aquarius1 said:


> This is critical going forward. Cheating is cheating.
> I guess people are coming down harder on her because, as you say, she hasn’t OWNED hers.
> TreyMD is trying to gain some personal insight.
> 
> I'm doubtful, but i hope they work things out. Just don't want him to get bamboozled, as i just have this feeling in my gut that something is not quite right here...


I agree and if he keeps his eyes open, he is going to find out that she is cheating. I know that he believes that is impossible but we have all see this type of stuff before.

I would bet $100 that she is cheating... I guess time will tell. I hope that he finds out for sure sooner rather than later when he has wasted years of his life...


----------



## Nucking Futs

BluesPower said:


> I agree and if he keeps his eyes open, he is going to find out that she is cheating. I know that he believes that is impossible but we have all see this type of stuff before.
> 
> I would be $100 that she is cheating... I guess time will tell. I hope that he finds out for sure sooner rather than later when he has wasted years of his life...


I wouldn't bet against you.


----------



## StillSearching

TreyMD said:


> *I also know that if things continue to unravel, I need to work on me. I need to be the man my kids can look up to. I need to be the man with whom someone would want a relationship. Most importantly, I need to be able to look in the mirror with no *additional* regrets. I cannot control what my wife does, but I can control who I become after all of this mess*.


They will.
She is nowhere near where she should be in her self reflection and honesty.
This statement is exactly where your head should be...I like it.
This why a WW should be filed on. 
Men and women are quite different and view infidelity/responsibility/honesty/reconciliation though different lens.


----------



## FeministInPink

TreyMD said:


> I also know that if things continue to unravel, I need to work on me. I need to be the man my kids can look up to. I need to be the man with whom someone would want a relationship. Most importantly, I need to be able to look in the mirror with no *additional* regrets. I cannot control what my wife does, but I can control who I become after all of this mess.


 @TreyMD You need to work on you, even if things DON'T unravel, and you need to start working on you now. You will be a better role model for your children, but it will also give you more clarity and understanding of everything that is going on, and it will help you be stronger and healthier moving forward, regardless of what happens with your marriage and how you choose to move forward.


Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


----------



## TreyMD

FeministInPink said:


> @TreyMD You need to work on you, even if things DON'T unravel, and you need to start working on you now.


You are absolutely right. That is how i intended to phrase it.


----------



## Dragan Jovanovic

Tell your wife that you want to do polygraph testing for you and her,so the whole truth will com out and you can start fresh. Maybe your wife will admit more. Likely not,but you can try.She is not remorsfull and she doesnt care about you. Only logical next step is divorce,but if you dont want to do that,then I dont have what to tell you then keep your eyes open.


----------



## TreyMD

Dragan Jovanovic said:


> Tell your wife that you want to do polygraph testing for you and her,so the whole truth will com out and you can start fresh. Maybe your wife will admit more. Likely not,but you can try.She is not remorsfull and she doesnt care about you. Only logical next step is divorce,but if you dont want to do that,then I dont have what to tell you then keep your eyes open.


I hear ya. Really, I am much less concerned about what she did, than about how she feels about it. Honestly, an emotional affair can be equally or more damaging to a marriage. And in her email, it sounded like she loved the guy. At that point, I am not sure it matters what they did together so much. I can connect the dots. I confronted the guy (we have the same employer) and he said nothing really happened even though I know he was encouraging things as much as she was. I trust no one in this. 

Granted, what she did was 3-years ago now. I just want her to stop minimizing what she did, level with me that it was an emotional affair, explain that there were feelings for another man, and make an effort to understand how it hurt me and what she can do to protect the marriage in the future. I need a basic level of remorse in order to more on, and I never got it. But after 3 years, she finally agreed to counseling and it is going to come out. Our counselor knows about both of our behaviors now, not just mine. It is important to note that when she went to her attorney, she left out her affair and only mentioned how I was the one who cheated. So he had no hesitation drafting a completed unfair document... well that and that is what she instructed him to do, of course.


----------

