# I Never Thought it Would Happen to Me



## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Okay...I've been lurking for a couple weeks. So, now...I am hoping, if I tell my story, I'll get some insight. So...here it is....short version (I'm sure the longer version will come out, once feedback comes in)...sorry for the long ("short") story:

My wife and I have been married 10 years, together for 12. I am 47, she is 36. We've had a standing joke (more serious for me) that the engagement ring was cryptonite. Once it went on...the sex nearly died. I'm not kidding. Almsot from the start of our engagement, our sex life dropped to maybe 6-7 times... A YEAR!! I pretty much put it off as A) our sleep patterns are different; and B) she has a very low sex drive. My wife pretty much goes to bed around 9:00. I'm a night owl...and pretty much stay up til 1:00...now, even later. She would NEVER have sex at night. I ALWAYS had to be early morning. Worked for me...until we had kids. THEN...things really went south. I honestly don't remember if we even had sex on our honeymoon. I took her for a two week honeymoon to St. Lucia (one week at a Couples resort...another week, leaving from St. Lucia on a barefoot cruise.) First...too tired...second...too tired....third...too tired....fourth, fifth...etc. Then...we got on the ship...too sick...and too tired. Things never got better from there...except when we decided to have kids. Just my luck...we pretty much got pregnant right away (I was hoping for months of "trying".)

I have always thought my wife is beautiful...still do. Until recently....I pretty much daily told her that...and always made a point of giving her daily hugs/kisses/affection. However...the lack of affection from her (and sex) has always bothered me. There were always excuses..."headache", "tired", "not in the mood", "not showered", etc. To be honest...I learned early on to "take care of myself." To be even more honest....when we DID have sex.....she pretty much let ME do all the work. I work on getting her satisfaction...and then she LET me have my intercourse. I loved her...so, my mistake, I let this happen. I can't blame anyone but myself for that. But frankly, I turned even more to the internet porn, and my own self-satisfaction, for "relief."

About three years ago, she "caught" me. Frankly, I always assumed she knew about my internet sessions. She didn't really get too upset...just jarred her. Since then, she has made a few half-hearted attempts to increase our sex life. But, for the most part, it constituted as Saturday morning rounds, only. But she expressed frustration that my internet porn life continued. I am no saint...I give you that. But, it was hard for me to understand how she could think that once a week...for a few weeks could reverse 8 years of ...habit...if you will. ??

There is much more to this story....finances....kids....her working...etc.

Anyway....one thing that has ALWAYS hung over us (in my mind) is her lack of affection. If we EVER showed affection...it was pretty much because I initiated it. For crying out loud.....for our first three years of marriage....we hung out (almost every Summer weekend) on my sailboat (a 27 foot cabin yacht...which I bought just before we married.) We would spend the weekends sailing around the Chesapeake together. Can you imagine a more romantic way for newlyweds to spend their time? I can tell you...we MIGHT have had sex a handful of times, during those three years....on that boat. I mean...MAYBE...4-5 times ...total.

Well....approximately 7 months ago....she suddenly started some sort of sex-oriented drive, I hadn't seen since we were dating. Hell...we even had a couple multi-session days. I was in heaven......until....one day (about three months ago)....I had mentioned wanting to have sex in the morning. When we woke up (I was still half asleep) she said something that really jarred ME. Something to the effect that she was hanging around (in bed) waiting for me because I said I wanted sex. It wasn't WHAT she said, but the WAY she said it. It was like it was an obligation, or chore, or something. It suddenly really hit home...and I said something to the effect of ....well...I'll wait until YOU want it too. We haven't had sex since. Worse yet...we haven't had a relationship since. 

Some background.....I snore. My wife would routinely wake me with "you are snoring"...because she is such a light sleeper. Almost a year ago...she hit me, in the middle of the night (she says because she couldn't wake me)...but hit me pretty hard, to make me jolt awake. From that night on....I have not gone to bed in our bed together. I spend EVERY night, at my desk in my office....until I fall asleep. I used to wake, around 3:00 AM, when the TV would auto turn off....and THEN go to bed. But, over the past few months....I simply stay there until the wee hours of the morning, before I go up. She goes to work early in the morning....I don't go until later. So...when I go up...it pretty much is passing her on the way to the bathroom (her getting ready...me going to bed.) Obviously...this is completely disfunctional. But frankly....I didn't want to be the one to cause her to NOT get sleep (snoring.) She is such a light sleeper...just the mere act of slipping into the room, in socks...making no noise...would wake her.

About three months ago....I suddenly realized how much she simply wasn't there. She's there physically...but so NOT into "us"...it became scary. She has always been moody. Since the kids, she has become downright *****Y. She is ALWAYS yelling/screaching at the kids, curt at me. I guess three months ago...it simply hit home. She is NOT a good wife....and I suddenly began questioning her as a mother. We have completely shut down, as a couple. I think roommates communicate more than we do. Tomorrow, we have our first "counseling" session with our minister. I suspect a lot will start coming out from this. But, what really scares me is that I am suddenly realizing....'I might not really love this person anymore.' She really is such a nasty person to be around, anymore. Sex aside (hey...I was doing fine with the internet)....but what I realized was REALLY lacking...was the meaningful hugs, kisses, affection. I could deal with the lack of sex....if I had those. But I simply am TIRED of always initiating "I love you", or ANY sort of affection. AND...even if we DID start having sex again.....how do you tell someone they are so selfish at sex? I really feel I love my wife....but I know it is a lot of historical feelings. She really does nothing to generate those feelings, now.

Anyway...that is as short as I could make it....without the full book version. What do you guys think? I neve would have thought we would be where we are now. If it weren't for the kids (4 and 7), and the house (which we are SOOOO underwater on)....I would have been LOOOOOOOOOONG gone by now. That being said...we have the kids...and the house we can't sell.....SO...we are stuck with each other. I'd rather it be as wife/husband....than as disassociated roommates. Where do we start? It is amazingly lonely, without ones soulmate, anymore. 

Thanks!


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

all i can say/think in short version is.....why go ahead w/ marriage when u were lucky enuff to get a engagement warning/preview of things to come?

also, what kinda communication skills could u two pull off if u both sat down to discuss sex issues, and more importantly relationship issues?:scratchhead:


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## 2Daughters (May 13, 2010)

My take is.. if you make more money than her..stay..if she makes more..leave..my wifes makes more than me, we are the same age as you and your wife, same sex problems..2 kids..she had no problem leaving me. except she forgot one thing, once separated I was no longer 'under her control'..it took awhile but I love it now...it's a smorgasbord of female 'friends' out there..almost scary..but just be careful.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

DailyGrind, I'm not one to hold my tongue, so sorry and here it comes. It appears some guys think that by virtue of sex being a pleasurable act, that it is also pleasurable for the woman. But that's not true, and it's unfair to attribute all problems of a sexual nature to the wife's low drive. It could be low sex drive, but not in every instance. You say she's selfish and I don't want to read again to find your exact words, but you also said something to the affect of her just allowing you to do your business in so many words. Anyway, that's the impression I got. From the beginning of reading your post, I kept thinking "she's not enjoying it." Reading further, I kept thinking "she's not enjoying it." Then you began telling me in so many words - although unintentionally - that she's not enjoying it. It happens that way, if a woman doesn't enjoy sex, then she'd rather avoid it. Okay, I know she should be more considerate of your needs, but tell me how would you feel? She cannot muster desire for something she knows will not be satisfying.

Intercourse feels good to you, but you have to learn how to make it feel good to her. I know that sounds like I'm blaming you, but there are a lot of women who don't know their own bodies. Myself? I was taught by a man, who was taught by an older woman when he was he was in his late teens. Our bodies are much more complex than yours. We don't know what is satisfying until we experience being satisfied and how it happened, or until we pick up the right book, which isn't likely. And, of course, there is the internet, which I suggest for you and your wife. There are sites that teach about her G-spot and her A-spot, how to massage those areas to bring her to mind-bowing orgasms, and the best positions that allow for good access to those areas during intercourse. You can learn, explore, and discover together and perhaps she will become just a little less b*tchy, and I fully expect her to become much more willing and active in bed.

In the meanwhile, I was glad to read you are about to begin counseling because there doesn't seem to be any communication between you whatsoever.


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## Meriter (Nov 10, 2009)

Yeah, dailygrind, you must not be doing it right! LOL
It's always the man's fault.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hi DG,
Sounds like the penny’s dropped. You’ve taken off the rose tinted glasses, dropped your “idea” of your wife and now see her maybe for real for the first time. If that’s the case, it can be scary. What to do? May be give yourself time to observe your wife through the new eyes you’re seeing her with and something will come to you.

Bob


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks, all, for the responses.

AFEH - I somewhat agree with your comments. I didn't put her up on a pedistal, or anything. When we first married, she was definitely affectionate. When I hugged her, hello, after getting home from work...I could feel the hug returned. I don't know when that feeling of returned hug disappeared. But it has been some time. Likewise, the kissing. But...I AM noticing now. It is quite obvious, she is a miserable person now. It used to be, I was the glass half-empty kind of guy. She was the upbeat one. Now....there doesn't seem to be ANYTHING in her glass. She's just .....MISERABLE.

Susan - I agree. She obviously isn't enjoying the act, so much. But not because I didn't give her pleasure. I've always....ALWAYS....made love with the principle...my partner first. She rarely has the big O from straight intercourse. So, she requires stimulation beforehand. I provide that...and make sure she has acheived her finish...before we begin the intercourse. Where I say she is selfish is...she basically lies there.....receives her pleasure; lets me climb on for my fun. Sure ....she moves a little....but that's about it. THAT's what I waited three months for??? She never reaches over to touch me. She never does the caressing. BUT...I would be okay with that....IF....she were at least affectionate. IF she would reciprocate the kissing, and such. I hate to sound like a girl here....but...I genuinely get turned on by my wife. I miss the makeout sessions. 

CB45 - Communication??? :rofl: That's a joke. I sat my wife down, about four weeks ago...and told her I thought our marriage was in deep danger. I asked her what was wrong. She said "why does there have to be something wrong with ME?" I told her because it was so painfully obvious she was miserable. She never really responded to anything. All I got was "I don't know", "I don't want to talk about it", and mum silence. In reality...I don't believe she really ever talks about feelings. Heck...I wear my feelings on my sleeve....so I really can't relate to such closed-in feelings.

Here's the rub.....if we hadn't bought this house, four years ago...and owe $100k more on it, than it is now worth (dang economy.) And if we didn't have two kids....I would have left, long ago. For the three years, prior to our first child...we had fun. We did things. We just didn't have sex, much. I guess I just thought that was normal (married blues.) I figured she'd hit her drive, when she hit the thirties. In the meantime...I just developed my own releases. But, when she discovered that, a couple years ago...it was an odd reaction. She was insensed, at first, but then seemed very understanding about it. She even wrote me a note that said:

"I don't have an issue with porn itself, but I'm not so sure its a healthy thing for married people to look at by themselves. When it's used as a substitute, its almost like a virtual prostitute. I guess I feel like it's too much. And resentful that you go outside to get what you want and I don't. What would you think if I were the one doing that?"

Okay, so it sort of bothers here because it is a substitute. But...what does she think a guy is going to do? After she first found out, she DID try more. The problem with her....it has to be all planned out. We have to be showered. It can't be too late (she needs her sleep.) It can't be too early (kids are up.) Well...geez...there's like a five minute window there, that accomplishes all that. But it doesn't explain the sudden lack affection response. And she hasn't talked to me about it. 

Another thing to note is that just before our first child, I helped her with her "dream." She made candles, as a hobbie. I helped her open up a store, in the town we lived in. She made the candles, and sold them there in the store. I would help her with the finances/bills/and even the craft shows she would sell in. It actually served as a second job for me. Heck..I even remember (when she was pregnant with our first child) when she got morning sickness...having to work all night, making candles (after working all day at my job.) We gave it four years..but it never took off. Finally, after acquring about $40k debt...I pulled the plug. We bought a house the next year. She was supposed to start working, that year. She wound up putting that off for TWO years. Meanwhile, we wound up far in debt (from the business, and buying the house without her expected income for two years.) I know I developed some resentment for her, that we are so in debt now. But, oddly...she seems to have resentment for me, as well. Don't get me wrong...she is a very frugal person. I am the one that tends to spend money, before she does. But ...I make a very good salary. I don't think my (relatively) small purchases have contributed THAT much, in the grand scheme of things.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Now...let me tell you the somewhat bad thing I did (I said I wasn't a saint.) 

Right before we bought our house, I got a new job. A very GOOD job, for a major international company, as a senior finance manager. It was in the city. When I first started working there...I was a bit taken over by the enormity of this. I started eating lunch out, every day. I worked long hours. I made a very good friend with one of my colleagues. No ...not a woman....just another guy that I became friends with. If we were both working late, and I knew that my one hour commute home would not get me back before wife/kids were asleep.....I'd go out for beers with my friend. A couple times a month, I'd get home after 1:00. During quarterly close...when we would work quite feverishly... we would make it a point of going out every night, as reward....getting home around 10:00 - 11:00. It wasn't so much that my wife said anything.....but at the end of that year....I realized how much freak'n money I was spending. I decided to cut that WAAAYY back. What I didn't realize was my wife was already getting bitter about the amount of time she was stuck with the kids. Where I was wrong was I took the attitude...'you aren't working...you are dealing with the household...I'm dealing with the working.' I guess I was frustrated she WASN'T working...and I was caught up in this new "city job." But, here's the thing. When I'm home anyway...it isn't like she wants to do anything with me. Most of the time, I wind up in my "cave" anyway. I typically retreat there when she starts up her shreaking at the kids, and general life sucks routine. I would play Call of Duty, research stuff...or just connect to work, and review stuff. I really was developing the attitude of what difference does it make, if I am there. 

But then, two years ago...she finally went back to work. The whole routine changed. I would go to work later, to take the kids to school. She would go earlier, so she could pick them up. Now, we see even less of each other. BUT...I don't do the after work beers, near as often.

But here's an example of our "life" together. I took this whole week off from work...as a "stay-cation." She is still working. I'm doing odd projects around the house, and things with the kids. Last night, she came home...I fixed dinner. Right after dinner, she decides to go to bed at 8:00. Heck....she actually beat the kids to bed. Sometimes....I just think she has mentally checked out of this marriage (as wife AND mother.) :scratchhead:


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

I'm not sure what the problem is. Sounds like you've described a typical marriage.

:scratchhead:


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

cody5 said:


> I'm not sure what the problem is. Sounds like you've described a typical marriage.
> 
> :scratchhead:


Nope, that isn't a typical marriage. It's one in which there are problems. Sex in itself is not an issue in marriage, it's a by-product of issues. The best way I can describe it is a falling barometric pressure does not cause rain and a rising barometric pressure does not cause sunshine. The falling barometric pressure falls BECAUSE the rain is coming. Sex is like the barometric pressure, it's an indicator that something in the marriage is not working right. It's my believe that in a totally healthy marriage the sex will just come naturally. 

Sure, we have gone through times where our intimacy sucked (once per month, etc). Each time we noticed that, we worked to find the issues together in our marriage. We have always found that once we addressed and fixed those issues, our sex life picked back up to normal (every 2-3 days).


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Your wife and you are in total disconnect. She has likely detached emotionally from you, you are doing the same. Your situation has many of the same issues many marriages do. An imbalanced sex life, lack of affection, money issues, job stress.... The problem is in how you are dealing with them. Your are pulling away from each other instead of addressing them together. Your wife may have a lower sex drive then what you would like but her disconnect to you emotional exacerbates it. Leaving the bedroom is exactly the wrong thing to do. It further distances you. Address the smoke and mirror issue. Snoring. Lose weight, learn to sleep on your side, use the Breath-rite strips and spray to see if those help. Get back in bed with your wife. Try and compromise on the sleeping patterns. She stays up a little later, you come to bed a little earlier.

Read The Five Love Languages. Your love language is likely physical touch. Find out what hers is and learn to speak it. 

Good for your for starting counseling, an unbiased eye needs to look at the dynamics of the marriage and that can be a huge help.

I'll shoot straight here, your story reads like some one who has elected himself to martyrdom and some of your wife's responses seem to reflect that. That would indicate to me a problem with empathy. I would suggest you do a deep analysis of your interactions with her. You state she is *****y and unhappy, while you likely aren't the sole reason for that you probably have a hand in it.

Much of what you describe in your post echo much of the problems in my marriage a few years ago. We didn't address them head on, simply avoided them to the point of a complete melt down of a once happy marriage and my wife's affair. We survived that but I certainly wished I had addressed my issues, her issues and our issues before it go to that point.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> I'll shoot straight here, your story reads like some one who has elected himself to martyrdom and some of your wife's responses seem to reflect that.


I was thinking the same thing. You describe your behavior of checking out of the marriage but accuse your wife of checking out of the marriage. It also resonates that you have a problem communicating. I tell you your wife is not enjoying intercourse and give you suggestions to make it happen, but you ignored that to reiterate what you already stated earlier. You already told us you take care of her beforehand. I said she's not enjoying intercourse. You responded to tell me you take care of her beforehand. Why do we have an impasse here?

I also let you know that it is not your fault, that many women don't know their own bodies or what it takes to achieve satisfaction just like many men don't know a woman's body or how to please her. I hoped to prevent you from being defensive and thought it would be something great for the two of you explore and discover together. But bring on the impasse.

So, like Amplexor, I wonder if I am correct in thinking you don't know how to listen and don't realize the part you played in the breakdown of your marriage. You want passion from your wife, but is there passion in you to invoke in her? And, ask yourself what have you done that she has lost the passion. You cannot neglect her, not listen to her complaints, not take care of her needs and expect her to have passion for you.

I don't know anything about how your minister conducts counseling but now that you offer more information and insight, I am not accustomed to ministers being helpful in this manner. Perhaps he has realistic and technical ways for couples to work on their marriage, and perhaps he shoots from Biblical principles. Maybe he can suggest the two of you communicate better, and maybe he can teach the two of you HOW to communicate better. There's a very big difference. I don't know but maybe you should also consider marriage counseling from a secular source.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Crypsys - I agree. This isn't normal. It is highly disfunctional.

Amplexor - I agree with everything you've said. I don't see much compromise in the sleeping times, though. I simply can't go to sleep at 9:00 at night. I typically don't get home until close to 7:00. She gets home around 6:00, but leaves around 7:00 AM. So she needs to get up around 6:00 AM. I guess she needs her 9 hours. But...STILL....she always complains she didn't sleep well. I think I've heard that line every day for the past 12 years. That is primarily why I stopped sleeping in our bed. She is suck a light sleeper. The mere act of me walking in, on tiptoes, in the middle of the night...bolts her awake. I WAS prepared to start using the Breath-rite strips. I had bought them...but then wound up getting a Fall cold, last year. I was so weazy, coughing, and sneezing....for about two weeks. The next time I did go back to the bed, and cozied up to her. Where, in the beginning of our marriage..she would ALWAYS nuzzle back into my spooning.....now...she usually rolls away. After a couple nights of that...I just gave up trying.

I guess the shining moment, that really opened my eyes that there was a major problem, was this Easter. I stayed up with the kids, making Easter Eggs. She went to bed. After I put the kids to bed.....I later hid them (assuming I didn't spoil this for any believers out there.) :lol: I then did my normal sleep at my desk, until around 6:00...when I went up to join her in bed. Next thing I know, I wake up at 9:00 AM....hearing the wife/kids downstairs playing. Huh?? I go downstairs...and they have already found the eggs, and were playing the "re-hide" game. WTF?? Why didn't anyone wake me? Wife - "We thought you wanted to sleep." I was furious! I did the eggs with the kids; she had no interest. I hid the eggs for the kids; she was already in bed. And then she had the NERVE to go downstairs enjoying the fruits of my efforts...and didn't even bother to wake me. STILL makes me mad.

We see the minister tonight. One thing that really rings in my head, is due to the self-assessments he had us do online. When he acknowledged our appointment, he made the comment that due to both of us acknowledging sex abuse in our childhood....he thought we should also see a professional. BOTH OF US?? WTF??!!! She CERTAINLY knew about mine. I knew NOTHING about hers!! Heck...she would never tell me about prior boyfriends. I assumed she just didn't want to dig up the past. BUT THIS??!!! I suddenly am realizing...I DON'T KNOW THIS PERSON! Of course...we can't AFFORD a professional councelor (on account of all the debt we racked up from her "business" and not working.) But we'll have to figure something out.

{sigh}


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Susan - Sorry...I misinterpreted your initial comment to mean she doesn't enjoy, as in no orgasm. I think it goes without saying she doesn't enjoy it *enough*, or she would be doing it. :rofl: She used to. She has toys she used to play with...that now are gathering dust (near as I can tell.) But...maybe she doesn't. It isn't really the lack of sex that I am bothered by. It is thinking that 6-7 times a year, is enough to keep her husband satisfied..and NOT take care of things on his on. I have NEVER cheated. I never would. But hey...not trying to be crass here...but nature needs to be taken care of.



> You cannot neglect her, not listen to her complaints, not take care of her needs and expect her to have passion for you.


Fair enough. And communication is DEFINITELY a problem. I'm not saying I don't have issues there. And I'm not trying to make my wife out to be a horrible person....but...if there ever was something we DID argue about...it was her NOT listening to me. I'll tell her something (sometimes important stuff). An hour later...she is asking about what I had just told her. But communication has always been a problem. We don't. We don't argue at all.....I used to think this was cool. She has always been pretty laid back. Nothing seemed to bother her. But..if I ever sensed her pushing back on something....I knew it was important to her. Otherwise, I assumed she was cool with it. (ie. vacation plans, visiting parents, plans for kids, etc.) NOW, I've come to realize that the downfall of never arguing...ist that NOTHING gets aired out. I'm thinking that she might be more of a collector. She collects all the things I do that bug her. But she never releases. I might spout off about something she does...but then it is gone. We ALL do things that bug our spouses. But we need a way of communicating to each other. You can't harbor the socks on the floor forever, if you never indicated it bothers you.

The minister (hopefully) is going to work with us on communication skills. The more serious stuff....will have to be addressed by others. But it is a step, I suppose.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

DailyGrind said:


> I wake up at 9:00 AM....hearing the wife/kids downstairs playing. Huh?? I go downstairs...and they have already found the eggs, and were playing the "re-hide" game. WTF?? Why didn't anyone wake me? Wife - "We thought you wanted to sleep." I was furious! I did the eggs with the kids; she had no interest.


I'm wondering if this is a sample of the problem with empathy and communications. As you have explained, your wife is constantly complaining she doesn't get enough sleep. That would tell me that sleep is a terribly important commodity for her. She may think it is for you also so she felt it was more important to you to get some and did this as a favor. Or do you really feel she did this out of spite or perhaps was just not thinking of your feelings? Worth thinking about.

On your statement that you tried to get your wife to nuzzle up and gave up after a couple of nights I would say you need to be prepared to give things a lot more time. Your marriage didn't get into this kind of condition in a couple of nights, it won't recover quickly either.


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## cb45 (Oct 2, 2009)

i think music says it best sometimes. so........music 4 the rm

(shake out yer winamps/realplayers/whatever & dust off yer speakers)

YouTube - Matchbox Twenty - 3AM (Studio Version)


its old but hopefully enjoyable


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

dg, I never thought it would happen to me either but here we are. I'm a ten year man myself and I could have written your original post except that you actually have it a little better than me. So my wife is upstairs now sleeping without me, which is the way she prefers it. She is at least sensitive enough to figure out when I am most likely to need sex (really not that difficult) so she bolted upstairs to bed while I was tied up on an important phone call so she could be upset if I asked for anything. Of course this is an hour an a half earlier than last night when she had something to do for herself. You and I have both made unfortunately wrong choices in our mates and we are both paying the price, but we must be getting something from this? Sure we are.

Some women are just not going to be OK with sex, no matter when or with whom or what it can do for them. Some kind of deep dark Freudian thing. But they can still go out and find someone to get married so here we are.

In my case, the benefits of staying outweigh the risk of leaving. So I work on various programs to try and get more of what I need/want out of our marriage. Some of them are pretty awful ( one has to do what one has to do) and some of them are pretty nice. Unfortunately, nice has never really worked here but being awful at least allows me to chip away at the ice. When I put it all on the line and help her think about the consequences of things really going the wrong way, sometime I can get a little traction. For example, flat out refusing to do something she really wants will always escalate into a huge verbal brawl. After the cascading downhill effect, I can usually get something going for myself for a day or two. Even the most independent, self-protected person finds occasionally that the need something from someone else. 

I really don't have any advice here, I can't advise anyone to do what I do and you will have to find your own way. But at least you can know that there are plenty of others in the same situation as you.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Well...we had our coaching session, last night. It went okay. It is amazing...as our minister asked us to walk through our early years (how we met, what brought us together, what attracted us to each other, how/why we got married, etc)....we definitely have some different memories of things. But overall...it was a positive event. If nothing else...I actualy got to hear my wifes "beautiful" voice. Much nicer to hear her talking...instead of the normal screaching, I hear all the time.

As I suspected, the topic of the porn came up. The minister broached the topic, only because it came up in the assessment we had completed. He said he "isn't throwing any stones" but understands how porn could interfere with physical intimacy between married couples. Something for us to address later. Of course...the question I have, is IF I can look forward to our "normal" 6-7 times a YEAR.....how in the heck is that supposed to entice me away from self promotion (so to speak)??!! I mean...do we shoot for some sort of balance? Is absolute abstenance, the goal here? Bear in mind...my idea of "appealing" porn....is VERY tame. Playboy-esque. I realize there is much worse out there....but not what I look for. I'm just looking for visual stimulation...for release. Heck...sometimes, it is as simple as pictures of the beautiful ladies from the Oscar's Red Carpet. 

The amazing thing is (and what my wife can't understand), most of the time...the fantasy/imagination part of the experience, actually IS about my wife. I initially noticed my wife because I thought she was the most incredibly beautiful woman I've ever seen. At 36.....she is STILL so. Half the time, when I look for personal release...it is because my WIFE turned me on. So completely strange. :crazy:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This has NOTHING to do with porn. Your sexual starvation existed for many years before any porn. Porn is simply your wife attempting to blameshift so she doesn't have to admit that she simply used sex to get you to marry her. 

In any marriage where the engagement ring killed the passion - and it never returned - there is nothing all that complicated going on. Why don't you simply tell her to put aside all these diversionary tactics and tell you the truth?

I can tell from your post below she is ALREADY rewriting your history to some degree.

I also find it astonishing that you would actually let a woman who clearly has no sexual interest in you - even have a conversation with you about porn. She breached her vows from the beginning. What does she expect. 

I guess you were so smitten by her looks that you have let her treat you so badly for so long you don't even see it for what it is. I would have broken an engagement when the "pre" engagement behavior and the post engagement behavior were so starkly different. 

And I believe you that she is very attractive. Super hot women are more likely than the average person to be batshiiit crazy and have ludicrous expectations.....



DailyGrind said:


> Well...we had our coaching session, last night. It went okay. It is amazing...as our minister asked us to walk through our early years (how we met, what brought us together, what attracted us to each other, how/why we got married, etc)....we definitely have some different memories of things. But overall...it was a positive event. If nothing else...I actualy got to hear my wifes "beautiful" voice. Much nicer to hear her talking...instead of the normal screaching, I hear all the time.
> 
> As I suspected, the topic of the porn came up. The minister broached the topic, only because it came up in the assessment we had completed. He said he "isn't throwing any stones" but understands how porn could interfere with physical intimacy between married couples. Something for us to address later. Of course...the question I have, is IF I can look forward to our "normal" 6-7 times a YEAR.....how in the heck is that supposed to entice me away from self promotion (so to speak)??!! I mean...do we shoot for some sort of balance? Is absolute abstenance, the goal here? Bear in mind...my idea of "appealing" porn....is VERY tame. Playboy-esque. I realize there is much worse out there....but not what I look for. I'm just looking for visual stimulation...for release. Heck...sometimes, it is as simple as pictures of the beautiful ladies from the Oscar's Red Carpet.
> 
> The amazing thing is (and what my wife can't understand), most of the time...the fantasy/imagination part of the experience, actually IS about my wife. I initially noticed my wife because I thought she was the most incredibly beautiful woman I've ever seen. At 36.....she is STILL so. Half the time, when I look for personal release...it is because my WIFE turned me on. So completely strange. :crazy:


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Well...it is amazing. We had our coaching session last week...and my wife couldn't stick to the "assignments" longer than one day. Our assignments were to spend 30 minutes together, before she went to bed. Just us two. Also, we are supposed to go on a date (which we are shooting to do on Friday.) The first night (after coaching) we DID spend the time together. The next night, I was working on the mural on my older daughter's wall. I didn't realize how late it was. Next thing I know....she is already in bed.

Friday, I sat with her, watching some patriotic shows on History channel....she fell asleep. But, at least we were together. 

Last week, one of the nights...I couldn't believe it...but it DOES seem typical. I was paying some bills in my office. She got out the ice cream to dish out to herself, and the kids. Now...in the past....she would have called out to see if I wanted any. If it were ME, dishing out ice cream...no way I wouldn't have asked her if she wanted some. Her, now.....nary a thought of asking me. I walked into the living room.....everyone eating ice cream and watching tv. {sigh} This after I just got done feeding them all dinner......but, alas...I don't rate.

Sunday...we went to a party, with the kids. I actually had a great time. She seemed happy (not shreaking at anyone.) We were drinking a little...and she almost seemed like my wife of old. But...we got home...and she immediately went to bed. Last night....she went to bed, while I was out finishing up some gardening. So...it seems....unless it is ME who makes sure the assignment time happens...it won't happen. {sigh} 

It literally hurts, to have such estrangement with her. I can't even describe how empty it makes me feel.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Get her to fill out a lovebusters/love kindlers questionnaire. 

Maybe you are doing a lot more love busting than you realize. She DEFINITELY has an aversion to you - at least a sexual aversion, possibly a complete aversion....




DailyGrind said:


> Well...it is amazing. We had our coaching session last week...and my wife couldn't stick to the "assignments" longer than one day. Our assignments were to spend 30 minutes together, before she went to bed. Just us two. Also, we are supposed to go on a date (which we are shooting to do on Friday.) The first night (after coaching) we DID spend the time together. The next night, I was working on the mural on my older daughter's wall. I didn't realize how late it was. Next thing I know....she is already in bed.
> 
> Friday, I sat with her, watching some patriotic shows on History channel....she fell asleep. But, at least we were together.
> 
> ...


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## UnluckyFool (Jun 27, 2010)

DG,
Unfortunately I don't have any words of wisdom, but sadly I can relate on many levels. I am also resorting to porn to satisfy myself as this is my ownly outlet. While this might be not be healthy nor is ignoring your husband and falling to sleep at 8PM to avoid him. It could be worse, you could be out chasing other woman, right? I think pornography is really the least of your problems. You sound alot like me! A man who still loves his wife, but yet his wife doesn't show any of the indications of love in return. I am not referring to sex, but little things like a hug, or a kiss, or a loving phrase out of the blue. I wish you all the best in your struggles.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Well...it's been a couple weeks....thought I'd update. We haven't had another session with the counselor, due to schedules. But hopefully next week.

We continue this roommate relationship with each other. Very quickly, after our one session, we've gotten back to "routine." One of our "taks" (from the couselor) was to make sure to spend 30 minutes together, afte the kids go to bed. That lasted one (maybe two) night(s). I tried a couple times after that, but she either had already gone to bed, or "too tired" or "headache." I swear if I had a dollar for every time I heard "man I'm tired" or "jeez my head hurts"......I'd be a millionaire. I don't think I am exagerating when I say it is NIGHTLY!! Anyway...it appears that if it isn't ME that tries to get the time together...it won't happen. We are talking about someone that won't even say "good night" when she goes to bed....she just goes. She never used to be this way. I married her because she was so sweet and caring and nice. Sheesh! Last weekend, I took the Love Language test, online. I sent her the link, and asked her to take it...and send me the results. So far....nothing. She never even mentioned it.

I also had to severly restrain myself from saying some really pointed comments to her, this past weekend. We used to take turns, nearly every weekend (until roughly the beginning of this year) making pancakes or waffles for breakfast (either Sat or Sun.) One weekend she'd make pancakes...the next I'd make waffles. Every year, I go out and pick about 50 quarts of blueberries, that we use for these all year (can't beat those berries.) This was actually one of the "tells" that I realized something was wrong, this year. She flat out stopped. She just stopped doing it...after 7 years....just stopped. She just stopped all kinds of things (for me, OR the family/kids.) It's like...one day...she just flipped a switch and ...just....stopped. Anyway...so I convinced her to make the pancakes on Saturday...but I needed to run out to the store to get sausages. I was supposed to get corn-on-the-cob (for dinner) as well...but forgot. When I got home, she asked about the corn. We had a WHOLE conversation about how I forgot..but i was running out to Home Depot later....I'll get it then. Not even 5 minutes goes by...and she up and says....."Didn't you get the corn?" (bear in mind ....this is QUITE typical...and something I've been dealing with our entire marriage.....she SIMPLY never listens to me.) I just turned and looked at her, and (breathe in....breathe out)....said "you never listen to me." As usualy, she just brushed it off.

One of the things I told her, after our counselor session, was that I realized how she gets so stressed picking up the kids every day. She, of course thinks that my getting the kids up, dressed, eat breakfast, and off to school...every morning....UNDER TIME CONSTRAINTS.....is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO much less stress than what SHE has to DEAL with, picking them up after school. I mean...it is so tough on her, that she HAS to zone out on the sofa for a whole hour before starting dinner. This coming from the woman who would FLIP OUT at me, for wanting to "zone out" for an hour when I got home from work, gaming. This while she was a SAHM. But anyway....so ...I get it....her life is so #$^$%^ horrible....and she has to deal with these witchy kids every evening, until I get home. And that is so much worse than trying to get them to school, and me to work on time. Anyway...so I told her ...I'll trade with her, two days a week..and pick the kids up. She liked that idea. Little did I know....in HER mind...that meant...I would drop them off...AND...pick them up. I thought about arguing with her about it, the first trade-off day ...when I realize she wasn't taking them to school (only realized this because she left for work her normal time....and the kids were still with me...lol). I realized, however, that about 3 weeks of the year...I have to travel for work..and she is stuck doing both. So...fine...I'll do both for a while, to compensate. So...we've been doing this for the past two weeks. Tuesday...my pickup day...I emailed her if she could pick them up...because of work...but I'd get them on Wednesday. She agreed. So yesterday...I leave work early to get the kids. Imagine how pissed I was, when she had already picked them up. ONCE AGAIN....didn't bother to listen.

/rant off. 

Sorry if I've bored anyone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First, have you snooped to make sure she hasn't met someone? Take care of that.

Second, what is her schedule like? What's her life like in a typical month? How does it differ from what she said she wanted when you got married?

Third, is she from a dysfunctional family? Highly religious? Any abuse?

Fourth, has she been to a doctor about depression?

Fifth, no matter what the other answers are, go get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it this week. Then report back.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> First, have you snooped to make sure she hasn't met someone? Take care of that.
> 
> Second, what is her schedule like? What's her life like in a typical month? How does it differ from what she said she wanted when you got married?
> 
> ...


I've snooped...but didn't find a thing. It would be very hard for her to be in a PE...just no time for it...unless she isn't really working. But then...she wouldn't be getting a paycheck. Now...I AM suspecting a possible EA...but can't find any evidence of it.

Her life, NOW, is more like it was (except kids) when we first met/married. She now has a normal job, in her career. Just before we had our first child, she decided she wanted to open her own store, selling her candles that she made. I fronted the money...and helped keep it going for four years. We finally had to pull the plug, cause we had lost far too much money (we are STILL paying of a very large debt, due to this). She then didn't work for two years. She only went back to work about two years ago. She does get up pretty early (around 6:00 am), and leaves for work around 7:00. I getup around 7:15, and leave around 8:30. She gets home around 5:30...I get home around 7:00.

Dysfunctionaly? Her Parents are NOT your typical loving couple. She was brought up in a fairly stoic family...not much on affection, loving emotion. She swore she would never be like them...but....here we are. I'm not aware of any abuse. BUT...the counselor mentioned something about it showing up on the online evaluation we had to do....which he thought we might have to see a "real" counselor...as he is only a minister. But, we've only had one session with the minister, so far, and it hasn't come up. She's never told me about anything. If something DOES come of that...I can tell you that I WILL be pissed...as I've shared my own abuse stories with her. If she held anything back...that will seriously be cause for me to lose a LOT of respect for her. But so far...nothing I am aware of.

No to the doctor.

I'll buy the book...thanks!

DailyGrind


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would look a little more into the possibility of abuse or at least dysfunctionality (which can be pretty hidden) - it can create walls like she's exhibiting, and toxic shame.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

DailyGrind said:


> If something DOES come of that...I can tell you that I WILL be pissed...as I've shared my own abuse stories with her. If she held anything back...that will seriously be cause for me to lose a LOT of respect for her.
> DailyGrind


After re-reading this...I felt I needed to clarify. I wouldn't lose respect because she might have suffered abuse. I would lose respect because she chose to never share her story. I shared mine with her, early on.....but if she never shared hers after I shared...THAT would piss me off.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

You know...the more I read in here....and in books....the more my situation is starting to really bother me. No matter what needs, of my wife, that I had not been meeting; no matter what love language I wasn't speaking; no matter what support I wasn't giving......it was all unintentional on my part. Maybe I was stupid; maybe I was stuburn; maybe I was just dense....but I wasn't malicious. However, what my wife is doing to me now....is deliberate, malicious, and intended to hurt. How could that POSSIBLY be fair? In my mind...it is taking things to a whole new level. I'm actually starting to get very angry toward her. Maybe if she could have figured out how to communicate her feelings (she still hasn't figured that out....I'm left to GUESS her issues)...we wouldn't be here now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What you are saying is called Disrespectful Judgment. You don't KNOW that she is willfully being malicious or anything. You CAN'T read her mind; even if she talks to you, you still don't know what she is really thinking. You have no idea WHY she does or doesn't do what she does. The only way you can move forward is to not PRESUME to know what she does or why. Ask her.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

DailyGrind said:


> You know...the more I read in here....and in books....the more my situation is starting to really bother me. No matter what needs, of my wife, that I had not been meeting; no matter what love language I wasn't speaking; no matter what support I wasn't giving......it was all unintentional on my part. Maybe I was stupid; maybe I was stuburn; maybe I was just dense....but I wasn't malicious. However, what my wife is doing to me now....is deliberate, malicious, and intended to hurt. How could that POSSIBLY be fair? In my mind...it is taking things to a whole new level. I'm actually starting to get very angry toward her. Maybe if she could have figured out how to communicate her feelings (she still hasn't figured that out....I'm left to GUESS her issues)...we wouldn't be here now.


Yup. Exactly how I felt. The difference between "just being" and being malicious. Once I’d made my mind up that it was designed to hurt that’s when I battened down the hatches and kicked away the gangplank. Boundaries? Zero tolerance. When you’re worried about your mental health due to all the mind games and the amount of emotional pain that’s what happens. No trespassing and all that.

My wife was “thinking of leaving me” and never did. Was 50/50 about me and yet she stayed. Would never go to marriage counselling. She never worked on her issues.

DG. Please be careful of that Anger. Be cool, very cool. Man has at times a Very Big Anger believe me I know. Not once in 42 years did I ever lay a hand on my wife. God knows what held me back this last time round. My wife was in great danger from me, I knew she was. She didn’t have a clue, if she did she’d have ran out of the house. When she left it took me 6 or 7 months to get that anger out of me. It’s unbelievable.

Take care man.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

turnera said:


> What you are saying is called Disrespectful Judgment. You don't KNOW that she is willfully being malicious or anything. You CAN'T read her mind; even if she talks to you, you still don't know what she is really thinking. You have no idea WHY she does or doesn't do what she does. The only way you can move forward is to not PRESUME to know what she does or why. Ask her.



Never heard it put that way “Disrespectful Judgement”.

For me it’s when one person makes themselves prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner. I had a lot of that, eventually too much. There’s usually something “there” but there’s no sitting down to see if there is a case to be answered to. There are no crown prosecution services or public prosecutors office where evidence must be submitted and agreed to before for a trial takes place. Most of the stuff would never get past this stage as it’s mainly “all in the head”. When the trial “happens”, there are no defence witnesses or lawyers, no evidence submitted in defence of the accused. Mitigating circumstances? Can you tell me what those are please? Previous good behaviour? No you’re starting from a blank sheet. Neither mitigating circumstances or previous good behaviour are to be taken into account when The Judgement is made.

All the accused knows about what’s been happening is when he is told of the judgement, he’s not told about the penalty, the sentence. Sometimes I wasn't told of "The Judgement" until decades after the event. That “penalty” is not issued in the judgment. That penalty normally manifests itself as a “withdrawal of services”, can be as simple as no more baking cakes an emotional distancing and other stuff. And all the while the accused is paying the bills, going about his work and hasn’t a clue what’s gone on and what’s going on.

If there’s “Disrespectful Judgement” then there’s also “Malicious Judgement” this one is intended to harm, to cause pain.

Some people just do that stuff, it’s part of who they are and it’s abhorrent. My wife is now 8 months without me. Think on it 42 years together, she knows she’s lost me. My son tells me she’s having a really hard time with it. We both are. Then what happens? A good friend (yer right) of hers tells her I’ve a new partner and she’s moving into the marriage home with me. Nothing could be further from the “Truth”, I’m a million miles away from that. I have teamed up with a single woman, we are doing a business together and it’s nice to be friends.

From that, this "well meaning friend" (yer right) of my wife has construed that it’s a romantic relationship and she’s moving in with me. And that’s what she’s told my wife.

For me that’s either stupidity or malicious, I actually believe it’s both. But my wife believed her “friend”. It hurt her big time and she went on a bender and while in that bender sent me an email telling me she thought I was a despicable person that I could get over our marriage so quickly and move on. Despicable that I would have another woman in the marriage home so quickly after she left.

These things used to drive me crazy and hurt me big time. But now I see them for what they are. I just replied to my wife “Your friend is a liar”.

Many times I got found guilty and penalised and didn’t even know until years after the judgement and years of living with the sentence. So what was the point?

Bob


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

You are right AFEH...that's what pisses me off. Tried, convicted, and judged...all without even knowing it was happening. No chance to defend; no chance to hear the charges; no chance to plead my case. Story after story, on here...I read how the spouse kept engaging and engaging their partner...and only AFTER lack of response, did they turn away. My wife didn't do that. We never argued....we still haven't. She STILL hasn't told me what is wrong. When I sat her down to ask what was wrong...I was given blank stares, and "nothing" and "I don't want to talk about it." Well...if you don't talk to me....don't expect me to figure out what you want. Whatever I did...it was unintentional.....and CERTAINLY didn't happen in a vacuum, unrelated to anything she might have done. BUT.....SHE...is PURPOSELY acting cold, distant, unemotional, unloving, selfish, and unfriendly. I mean...what kind of person suddenly decides "I won't ever tell my spouse goodnight, anymore?" I'm not talking about forgetting one night. I'm talking about 10 years of saying goodnight EVERY night...and suddenly, over the past 5 months.....not ONCE. That is on purpose. What kind of person will let their spouse make Easter eggs with the kids.....and then, the next morning...won't even wake them up, when the kids start hunting them? All kinds of different personality, I'm suddenly dealing with. You just don't forget to do the things you've been doing for so long (goodbye kisses/hellos). 

Maybe it IS disrespectfuly judgement. But hey...as long as she is unwilling to discuss things with me....she can ONLY let me draw my OWN conclusions. She's free to counter these perceptions, any time she decides to start talking to me, eh?


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## gypsysouls (Jul 30, 2010)

hey, just wanted to comment on the snoring - as i have the same problem. i sleep like the dead. 

ive tried the strips and sprays, going to a non-dairy diet and nothing worked. i have sleep apnea but i eventually found out that my nasal canals are waaaay to small and will need a nosejob to fix this. maybe seeing an E.N.T doctor could help then you and your wife can start sleeping in the same bed again. sleeping apart just compounds the problems.

also my husband was abused as a child too and yes it can make things harder, but if you didnt know about her being abused i would think that she hasnt sought counselling for it ever - and probably needs to. maybe that is the root cause of the problems you are experiencing - that she hasnt dealt with the abuse she suffered yet. 

my husband only dealt with it once he felt safe enough to, that was just before we got married. my sincerest hope is that she gets the help she needs and your marriage does too.


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## gypsysouls (Jul 30, 2010)

from the behaviour you are describing it sounds like she is very depressed and could be having a breakdown. she really needs to get counselling and help from a gp. it really sounds like the abuse she suffered is making her act this way and in turn that behaviour is causing marital problems (i dont believe that she wants problems in the marriage), but is so consumed with the abuse that she cant see anything else. she seriously needs to get some counselling - before that happens i dont think that marriage counselling will do what you want it to.

im sorry for the bluntness, but having gone thru it with my partner and him supporting me through my breakdown (after a fellow worker tried to rape me), i remember seeing and going through similiar behaviour changes.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Er...I was talking about YOU practicing Disrespectful Judgment, grind.

I agree with gypsy. What she is doing does NOT sound any bit like malice, but rather an inward hatred or depression and withdrawal.

The point is, for YOU to plant in your own head that SHE is being malicious to you does absolutely NOTHING toward helping you get what you need.

Read His Needs Her Needs. You will recognize yourself in there, I imagine.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

DailyGrind said:


> You are right AFEH...that's what pisses me off. Tried, convicted, and judged...all without even knowing it was happening. No chance to defend; no chance to hear the charges; no chance to plead my case. Story after story, on here...I read how the spouse kept engaging and engaging their partner...and only AFTER lack of response, did they turn away. My wife didn't do that. We never argued....we still haven't. She STILL hasn't told me what is wrong. When I sat her down to ask what was wrong...I was given blank stares, and "nothing" and "I don't want to talk about it." Well...if you don't talk to me....don't expect me to figure out what you want. Whatever I did...it was unintentional.....and CERTAINLY didn't happen in a vacuum, unrelated to anything she might have done. BUT.....SHE...is PURPOSELY acting cold, distant, unemotional, unloving, selfish, and unfriendly. I mean...what kind of person suddenly decides "I won't ever tell my spouse goodnight, anymore?" I'm not talking about forgetting one night. I'm talking about 10 years of saying goodnight EVERY night...and suddenly, over the past 5 months.....not ONCE. That is on purpose. What kind of person will let their spouse make Easter eggs with the kids.....and then, the next morning...won't even wake them up, when the kids start hunting them? All kinds of different personality, I'm suddenly dealing with. You just don't forget to do the things you've been doing for so long (goodbye kisses/hellos).
> 
> Maybe it IS disrespectfuly judgement. But hey...as long as she is unwilling to discuss things with me....she can ONLY let me draw my OWN conclusions. She's free to counter these perceptions, any time she decides to start talking to me, eh?


It's OK I know. This is not something women understand.

Do not let your anger take you over. Take yourself away, go sit on a hill, a mountain and contemplate. That's what Men do. That's why Men are the greatest Philosphers, Artists, Poets etc. etc. that ever existed and will ever exist. Men are immensley powerful beings capable of many wonderous things. Women, believe me, do not deserve a Man's Anger no matter what they have done.

If you get Truly Angry you will lose everything. Anger is the Only Thing courts know about. They do not give a damn about anything else.

Bob


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

breeze said:


> Sounds like everything is her fault hey.
> 
> You go off and do your own thing at night and she should wait until you're good and ready to spend time together. She obviously gets tired early, but you're not finished, so she's a horrible person for going to bed. She's sabotaging your attempts to salvage the marriage. Shame on her hey.
> 
> ...


Breeze,

I don't know where you are getting this, from my posts. I know you read my whole posting. 

I, in no way, blame her for the fact that she chooses to go to bed early. I'm okay with that. The reason I abandoned our bed is because she hauled off and hit me so hard, one night...because of my snoring.....I didn't want to be the cause of her constant "I got no sleep last night." Now...it is just habit. BUT..I don't blame her for that either. My situation isn't the same as your post. I don't game at night, and THEN expect her to be there for me. I would rather her be there...and THEN...I'll go gaming. BUT...what I DO blame her for is the going cold treatment with absolutely NO attempt at communication about her issues. What I DO blame her for is that I have always been the one to initiate any form of tenderness (hugs, kisses, holding hands)...so, when I stopped (due to her coldness), she doesn't appear to care. What I DO blame her for, is when I completed a Love Language survey, and asked her to do the same....a week later, I have no idea even if she has done it.



breeze said:


> has stopped the little things that she previously used to do to demonstrate her love for you


 My issue here isn't what she has stopped doing for ME...it is what she has stopped doing for the FAMILY. The pancakes were for the family...not something she did for ME.

What I DO blame her for is suddenly going uncivil. I never said I didn't ever do wrong. But...I never INTENTIONALLY did wrong...and I was ALWAYS civil...no matter how much she may have irritated me, or not met my needs. Whatever her issues are with me...what I'm pissed about...is she owes me an explanation as to WHY she has gone cold. I never claimed to be a boyscout....as I thought I was pretty clear about in my early posts. BUT...I never did anything TO her.

AFEH - no worries, mate. I would NEVER do anything to harm my wife. I love her..and have too much respect for her. Besides...I've always been a Walk Away type of person. No matter how much she may upset me....my reaction is to internalize, analyze, and walk away. She has absolutely no worries about me doing anything. I'm quite sure she knows that.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Breeze,

I see your point. I made my point about the gaming, as I had read your post. I thought you were trying to draw a correlation between your husband not responding to you because of gaming, and my situation. Sorry if that wasn't your intent. 

Just to clarify (and hoping you haven't truly left the thread)...I see the issues as twofold. Obviously, we have issues. We've had sex issues, nearly from day one. Whatever other (or related) issues she may have had, I don't deny or hold against her. As I've said before, I'm no boyscout (although I have no doubt I could earn a number of merit badges.) But I'm not a bastard either. I guess I'm your average husband/father...fraught with flaws and positives. These are the things we need to work through.

The second issue (the one I recently posted as pissing me off) is the issue of her shutting down, without even bothering to communicate her issues. I have had issues with her, over the years...but never responded in a mean way. She, on the other hand, has suddenly decided to shut me out. No matter what her issues with me are (and...as I've said...I STILL don't know what has triggered her off)....she should have at least communicated the to me. We were going along fine, and suddenly (all at once) she shut down. No warnings, no argument, no word. Breeze, you asked in your post "should I step back." Well..if you did....at LEAST you've had conversations with your husband...and it should NOT come as any surprise to him WHY you are acting the way you are. I've not had ANY of that. I can only surmize her issues.....she hasn't told me anything...and still refuses to. THAT is what angers me. How could someone do that? I'm not putting the blame on her for our problems. I'm putting the blame on her for shutting down, without discussions.

Anyway...thank you for your insight. I appreciate your comments.

Regards,

DailyGrind


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I know lots of people who shut down. My own mom told me that that was her problem with my dad - he just stopped communicating. She said they could go for weeks without speaking.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Well...its been a month since my last posting. My posts tend to be long...so THANK YOU, to anyone who takes the time. PLUS....I don't want to be like a lot of posters who come on (and I start following their thread)...get half-way through the story, and they dissappear. It's like watching half a movie...and you are like "HUH??!!! NOOOOO....come back....WHAT HAAAAAPPPEENNNNEDD!!" 

Anyway...we finally had our second counseling session two weeks ago. We were requested to list out three "issues" we wanted the other to work on...and then practice active listening. My three were:

1) Listen when I talk to you;
2) Acknowledge what I DO do for her and family;
3) Stop making me the "bad guy" with the kids.

Her's were:

1) Work on not flying off the handle at things;
2) Spend more time with the family;
3) Be more understanding of the kids' bad behaviors.

We also talked about our Love Languages. Mine is touch; her's is time together.

So...I came out of this session, determined to start doing my job here. Every evening, except last Thursday (which I'll get to below) I made sure to spend with the family. I've not gone off the handle (usually at some "stupid" inanimant object)....the kids thing is another story...I'll post later. We were also "admonished" for not sticking to our 30 minutes every evening, together.

1st night...again, at my urging, we did our 30 minutes. Almost every night after...she has slunk off to bed, or too tired, or not feeling well. So..once again..first assignment not completed. Second assignment was to pick ONE of the issues we listed, and address it through constructive communication. We were to pick an evening...and dedicate 60 minutes alone, to talk it through. Since we both picked the kids as one of our issues....that was going to be the topic. So...we (well...really me....she offers ZERO proactiveness toward this process) picked Friday evening. True to form...she was too tired. So...it was defered to Saturday. Saturday got busy entertaining the kids. Next thing I know, it is 9:00...hustling the kids to bed. Do we get together??? Heck no....too late. Deferred to Sunday. She (last minute) decided to go visit her parents on Sunday. I had work I brought home...so I told her to take the kids...I'll stay home. But don't forget our 8:00 appointment to meet. We said we'd put the kids to bed early. {in my best Yoda imitation} "pissed am I...hmmmmmm. when wife come home NOT til 9:00 pm...errgggg"

I knew it wouldn't happen on Monday (Labor Day) because of work the next day. But what I DID do...was buy her a tennis raquet, on Sunday...and offered for us to start playing tennis together. So...Monday....we take the kids to the park during the day. Early evening, we go off to play tennis. She apparently used to be "pretty good"...but who knows.....I didn't see it (and I haven't played as long as she hasn't).  But, nevertheless....we had some fun. After about 30 minutes...her "wrist hurts." So...back home we came. Got the kids stuff ready for school.....next thing I know...she's in bed. {sigh} Needless to say....SECOND assignment is incomplete. Although we DID spend time together.

I'm making sure that I am speaking her "love language" (time together.) When do I start getting some of my own language (touch)? I'm not talking about sex...I mean...just some general tenderness, affection, general curtesy?

Anyway...not to stretch this post out even longer...but this is a whopper of a development, that has my head spinning. Last Thursday, because all the football games on, I made plans to go out after work, to the bar I frequent (a block from my work.) Also, there was one of the women there that I've been confiding in my marital woes, because she was getting divorced. So...we were sort of comrades in arms. Anyway...turns out her divorce was final on Thursday. Now...I was feeling particularly "down" on Thursday...and was pretty depressed about my situation. So...there I am, watching the games with my friends...and she shows up around 9:30. She is hammered...and walks right up to me, saying she really needs to talk to me. I figured she was depressed about the divorce (her husband left her for another woman.) She proceeds to tell me that she had a "naughty" dream about me the night before. "HUH??!!!" I was shocked. She then proceeds to whisper (very hotly) in my ear...."I REALLY want to #$% you tonight!" OMG!!!!! :BoomSmilie_anim:

I was absolutely shocked....no one...EVER...has done that to me before. She's a fairly attractive woman....but HOLY COW...I'M MARRIED!!! I kept deferring an answer. I had GREAT difficulty declining this offer. During the course of the next hour...she made this offer over and over....and I kept "oh...you're just drunk" or "I bet you say that to all the guys", etc. INSIDE...I was....'HELL YESSSSSS>>>>I REALLY WANT YOU.'

Geez. Anyway...finally I put her in a cab to take her home. And I went to my OWN home. BUT...I can't stop thinking about that. Not HER, necessarily.....she just happens to have taken the form of the vacuum in my life. Not the sex, mind you.....but rather...that unbelievably intoxicating feeling of being "wanted." And not the "wanted", in the form of being able to change the oil in the car...kind of wanted. I'm talking about that primal "WANTED" by a woman....... Now...I'm in a pickle. I have effectively avoided the sexual starvation I'd been feeling in my relationship with my wife...for YEARS...by simply avoiding temptation. I certainly wasn't looking for anything last Thursday. But ...HOT D&*M.....she opened a door in me...I'd been repressing for a LOOONNNNNGGGGGG time. I'm not so sure that genie is going back in the bottle. This couldn't come at a worse (or maybe better...depending on your outlook) time. It is CERTAIN to cloud my view of my wife...when I really need to be as objective as possible. Here I am trying all kinds of things to re-spark SOMETHING with my wife.

Anyway....sorry for the novel. As always....any feedback is welcome.

By the way Tunera...I did get [His Needs Her Needs]. I agree with the whole love bank theory. But a lot of the book, really didn't seem to apply. It seemed to revolve around fulfilling wife's affection needs, fulfilling husbands sex needs. While I admit....husband needs some sex fulfillment....wife NEVER was the one with the affection needs. That was always me. Frankly....I'm not sure WHAT her "needs" are...other than a financial partner.

Regards,

DailyGrind


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks for sharing. And for reading the book! Actually, you can just replace your own ENs and hers and go from there; the premise is the same.

If I were you, I would tell your wife what happened. And how it affected you. You ALSO need to tell her how disappointed you are that she is ACTIVELY not participating in your therapy homework. 

And also report it to counselor. In fact, I'd be keeping notes so wife can't just say 'oh you're exaggerating.' She will.

That said, I can rarely make it through 15 minutes of tennis without my wrist or hand hurting. So I DO believe that one.

But she is most definitely avoiding the homework. Call her out on it.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Well...I didn't tell her (yet) about the event. Not sure how to separate what happened from me going out. Nothing even remotely close ever happened before. But I don't want her thinking that if I go out NOW....i'm looking for that.

Last night, I DID push things a bit. I was talking to her on the phone, on my way home from work. Next thing I know, i just blurt out to her "Do you love me?" She said yes....and responded yes again, when I asked if she was sure. But THEN I asked "are you IN LOVE with me." To which I got..."I don't know." 

So...I have effectively received the "I love you but not IN love with you" statement.

I asked her if she was committed to working on the marriage...she said yes. I then followed Turnera's advice and called her on her lapses on our counselor's assignments. She really didn't say anything. But she did agree to our assignment of spending 30 minutes together, before she went to bed. We only watched tv...but at least she agreed, instead of "I'm too tired."

I'm thinking about looking for a "REAL" counselor...instead of just our minister. We only seem to be able to get him, every three - four weeks, or so. I think it should be weekly. I can look up councelors in our insurance website....but does anyone know how you go about getting reviews on them? How do I find out who is good/not?

Thanks all,

DailyGrind


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I just go onto Google and say ABC and XYZ and 'reviews.' I usually find some sort of forum where people post their reviews and experiences. That's how we found our vet and one of our doctors.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

It gets better. After calling my wife on her lack of participation in the councelling assignments, I was pleasantly surprised today. She let me know that she DID call the baby sitter for our assignment of "going out somewhere and work out one of our ISSUES", identified from our counseling session. We had agreed to work on the Child Raising disagreements issue.

Well, we went to a local bar...and began our discussion. Next thing I knew...I realized we were dealing with a situation where she had a chip on her shoulder about some things I did years ago...and was totally looking at things from a perspective of she's never done any wrong...and everything is all my fault....and it was up to ME to make things right in HER world. I lost it....and told her....you know...YOU aren't the only one with resentments, you know. She asked...so I started rattling off all the things I'VE been harboring.

Then I told her, when we got back from our vacation....I totally felt like divorce was in our cards...and asked her if that is what SHE wanted. She stared me straight in the eyes..and stated "I don't know."

So..there you have it. I really don't know where to take things. I'm totally willing to work on my own shortcomings. But how do you deal with someone that totally feels like they do nothing wrong. At one point I mentioned to her, one of my resentments was marrying someone that feels sex 6-7 times a year is acceptable. She responded....."You can't just blame me." I said...'well....who's else's fault is it. You have about a 15 minute window of opportunity....and only if the stars align correctly, and all the rules are met a) morning, b) showered, c) enough sleep...not too much...and not too little, blah, blah blah.' She just can't accept SHE has done ANYTHING wrong. (sigh)


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## loveless1 (Aug 16, 2010)

Depression in general i would ask her to get checked.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

DailyGrind said:


> It gets better. After calling my wife on her lack of participation in the councelling assignments, I was pleasantly surprised today. She let me know that she DID call the baby sitter for our assignment of "going out somewhere and work out one of our ISSUES", identified from our counseling session. We had agreed to work on the Child Raising disagreements issue.
> 
> Well, we went to a local bar...and began our discussion. Next thing I knew...I realized we were dealing with a situation where she had a chip on her shoulder about some things I did years ago...and was totally looking at things from a perspective of she's never done any wrong...and everything is all my fault....and it was up to ME to make things right in HER world. I lost it....and told her....you know...YOU aren't the only one with resentments, you know. She asked...so I started rattling off all the things I'VE been harboring.
> 
> ...


What comes across to me from your posts is two people who refuse to recognise that either person has a valid point of view. She opens up and tells you about her issues, and all you can think about is how she's putting all the blame on you. You don't try to understand or empathise in any way. Then when she's finished, you go on the attack, instead of discussing the issue she raised.

You tell her your issues, and she does exactly the same thing. You both completely lack the ability to empathise with eachother. The whole time either of you are talking, neither of you are ACTUALLY LISTENING, you are just thinking about your defense to their argument and what you are going to say next.

His needs, Her needs is a great book to help get a marriage back into the love zone I think, but to actually try to understand how to communicate, I think 'Getting the Love You Want' by Harville Hendrix is very helpful. They have exercises in the book as well.


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## pathwaystherapy (Sep 10, 2010)

DailyGrind, was on late this evening and read your initial post about the nature of your marriage. I don't have much time at the moment but wanted to drop a small comment on your situation. 

Your post was riddled with comments about sex and the frequency or lack of it. It appears that you really don't want sex with her. You say you do just as most men do. I work with scores of couples weekly and men say about the same thing you did in your post. It is clear you are looking for far more than a sexual experience. You stated that she became more active and you had a few multiple time a day-ers but the fact is that her having sex with you is sheerly a biological activity and not a relational one you are seeking. Your porn use will fuel your objectifying and gratifying your sexual desires with static images that simply arouse you and confuse your brain with intensity not intimacy. It is intimacy and fulfilling bonding you are seeking with her. 

I am confident that when you are able to articulate this to her that your sex will easily follow suite. I am a husband like you as well as a licensed marriage and family therapist. I've taught university courses on human sexuality and have a good handle on intimacy in the context of couples and marriages. I wonder if the sex early in the marriage was 'biological' meaning that it was more of a 'get it done, and get a big orgasm' rather than lets hold each other, lets talk and lets enjoy the passion and beauty of our bodies while in a sexual experience together.

Nothing turns a wife off quicker than knowing that you are fantasizing about women online that are digitally doctored anyway. I'd toss the porn use and nurture the relationship. I'd not start with the sex you seek, but instead turn your aim to building a healthy attachment and then the sex will follow. You'll then have sex that is so mind blowing you will wonder where you've been all these years and so will she. 

My info is below should you want more information on me. Best of luck!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Until you're ready to really HEAR and understand HER issues, she won't hear yours. One of you has to go first.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

That's part of the problem, I guess. I BELIEVE I'm ready to address things from my end. But then, I balked when all I was hearing was basically...."Okay...so start doing everything my way." When she started up with "I guess I was doing that because I must still be bitter." I said, "and I'm working through my own stored bitterness." She nearly choked, laughing out..."what possible bitterness could YOU have." {sigh}


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your sex life crashed way BEFORE the porn use. Blaming the porn is simply her way of avoiding the real issue in the bedroom. I am NOT saying the porn doesn't bother her. I am saying it has nothing to do with your sexual issues. Remove the porn and the original issues that caused her to shut you down sexually will remain. But since apparently they are hard to deal with she will keep talking about how she is angry about the porn for the rest of your life because that is easy and puts all the blame on you. 





DailyGrind said:


> That's part of the problem, I guess. I BELIEVE I'm ready to address things from my end. But then, I balked when all I was hearing was basically...."Okay...so start doing everything my way." When she started up with "I guess I was doing that because I must still be bitter." I said, "and I'm working through my own stored bitterness." She nearly choked, laughing out..."what possible bitterness could YOU have." {sigh}


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

I agree. I'd give it all up tomorrow, if I felt I would wind up with a tender, loving, mutually-intimate relationship. But...I don't think that will happen. She turned from me first. This is just so ridiculous.

Thanks,

Daily Grind


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

DailyGrind said:


> That's part of the problem, I guess. I BELIEVE I'm ready to address things from my end. But then, I balked when all I was hearing was basically...."Okay...so start doing everything my way." When she started up with "I guess I was doing that because I must still be bitter." I said, "and I'm working through my own stored bitterness." She nearly choked, laughing out..."what possible bitterness could YOU have." {sigh}


So...did you tell her what you're bitter about?


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

turnera said:


> So...did you tell her what you're bitter about?


I told her about feeling unappreciated for 4 years, while I supported her candle business...basically working two full-time jobs, doing all her accounting, marketing, product support, some production, 30+ weekends a year...taking her candles to craft shows all over Mid-East to sell for her. All so she could realize her dream of making a business out of her hobby. How I felt she always treated it like a hobby, instead of a business....constantly leaving it to me to try and make a business out of it. All, while I was growing my own business (with a partner)...working like 55-60 hrs a week. I don't believe I EVER got acknowledgement for that. Nor that I wound up selling my prized sailboat (27' Catalina sailboat) that I used to sail all around the Chesapeake....because we needed the money for her business, and I didn't have time anymore. That we incurred tons of debt, for that business...which I ultimately had to shut down.

I told her how, when we bought our house...she was supposed to start looking for a job within the year. She wound up NOT getting a job for two years..because she didn't want to put the two yo into daycare. But we incurred a lot of additional debt (over that damned business), because she wasn't working...and I wasn't figuring on single income to pay for the house, for more than one year.

I told her how I was bitter about having a wife that felt sex 6-7 times a year was adequate. She responded to this that "its not all my fault." I couldn't let that slide......and told her it certainly wasn't MINE. I NEVER turned her down.

I acknowledged to her that when I got my new job...i DID get carried away with "working in the city." I WAS going out after work too much..and was not considering her feelings about being stuck at home with the kids. But, I also told her, I would have LOVED (100 x more) to have been going out with her. She simply never wanted to. After four years of double-job duty...never having time for ANYTHING (can't tell you the number of times I slept in the back of our SUV....even in Winter time.....so that I could get up in the morning, and man the craft tent...selling her candles)....yeah...I DID go a bit wild. I had made a friend at work, and yes...we did go out too much. BUT...also....I was working ungodly hours....routinely I didn't get done work until 8:00. My wife would be sound asleep by the time I got home (hour commute.) So...I would routinely (1-2 times a week) go out for a couple beers. I told her, I can't defend why I did that..and I certainly wasn't trying to minimize it....BUT....maybe we should also address WHY I routinely felt more comfortable going to a bar, drinking beers, and playing video golf....than to come home to a cold bed.

In the end...when she FINALLY started working again...we did wind up having a big fight about this. I wound up cutting WAAAYYY back (2x/month - out til about 12:00....rest of the month....I might go out for a quick happy hour...but ony if I managed to leave work early...so I got home same time as usual.) That was two years ago.....and I feel she is still harboring bitterness for this time, even though it is no longer the case. She doesn't see that I'm not doing that anymore.

She also doesn't see that, for me, there were already problems in our relationship. I was already tiring of being the only one to show affection, tiring of no sex, tiring of her negative attitude. BUT..in HER mind....she is the only one wronged. 

I am TOTALLY willing to address my wrongs, misgivings, issues.....but she needs to do a bit of soul-searching herself..imo.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

DailyGrind said:


> I told her how I was bitter about having a wife that felt sex 6-7 times a year was adequate. She responded to this that "its not all my fault." I couldn't let that slide......and told her it certainly wasn't MINE. I NEVER turned her down.


You are not hearing what she is saying. You are equating that statement to a competition. It's not a you turned me down thing with her its a I'm not interested in sex with you because I'm not emotionally attached to you anymore. I read so much anger in your posts DG that you must be reflecting that on her. I'm not siding with her on this as I know she is not meeting your needs either but I sense you are looking for immediate improvement on the situation. If she has emotionally disconnected from you she will not return because you've said you will change. She needs to see it from you and you need to give her a chance to accept it and to also begin to self reflect on how she is impacting the marriage in a negative way. 

Also based on the amount of time you've devoted to your business and hers I wonder how she interprets that. Does she see the value in it, that you are doing for her and the family or does she see it as you just wanting to be away? If you've not read The Five Languages of Love, do so. I really sense the two of you don't speak the same language.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I get that coming to a place like this is great for venting, but if you're really interested in a better marriage, you will have to make some changes. Whether you think that's fair or not really makes no difference, does it? Because you can feel 'right' all you want - and still never have a loving caring wife. So what did the resentment do for you?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> You are not hearing what she is saying. You are equating that statement to a competition. It's not a you turned me down thing with her its a I'm not interested in sex with you because I'm not emotionally attached to you anymore.


Exactly. She TOLD you why you aren't getting it, but you are too wrapped up in your own self-justification to hear it.

And if you do some reading, you will find that what you're experiencing is maybe the #1 result of marriages that aren't working. It's a vicious cycle because neither wants to give in and take care of the other person (why should I?).

Why? Because it will get you what you want.


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## DailyGrind (Jun 27, 2010)

Amplexor said:


> I'm not interested in sex with you because I'm not emotionally attached to you anymore.


{sigh}...yes....I know this. The proverbial chicken/egg story, here.




Amplexor said:


> I really sense the two of you don't speak the same language.


We've both taken the test on this. As you say, we don't have the same language. Mine is Touch, then Words of Affirmation. Hers is Quality Time and Acts of Service.

No doubt...we've been missing the mark here. As things got worse and worse at home...I retreated and retreated (usually to my home office....or stayed at my work office).....the exact opposite of what she needed. And she got less and less physical (I'm not talking about sex....she missed that mark, beginning with our honeymoon). I was always the more affectionate..but I could feel her NOT responding to my hugs, and affection....the exact opposite of what I needed. Since I read the Love Languages, and realized her language (about 3 weeks ago)....I've made it a point to be around more...even just sitting on the couch, watching tv with the family. This is something I know (now) I didn't do enough. As I said...I always retreated. Never wanted to confront the problems in our relationship. I knew we were failing....but I simply buried my head. She did too. Not a good situation.

I've really been thinking about the Love Dare thing. We've got about 40 days until our anniversay. I'm guessing, between counseling...and some form of Love Dare (in her language)....if that doesn't work...at least I tried.

By the way...not anger....more like despair. I've watched this relationship crumble for many years. I never knew what to do (still don't). I've never known how to communicate with her. In many ways, this woman completes me...or so I thought. Now....I still love her dearly....but I don't love the bitter, cold-hearted person she's become. I vowed to take care of this woman (honor and charish)....and I feel I've failed...so far.

Thanks for listening.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think you missed an opportunity. You said she froze you out sexually starting with the honeymoon. She replied "it wasn't all my fault". Why not ask her. 

"What happened. Why - starting with the honeymoon when I thought things were GREAT did you start shutting our sex life down?" What was different from the day we married forward, than while we were dating? 

ASK HER. Sorry dude - I think the real issue here was she never really liked sex with you. Marriage gave her the confidence to stop doing something she didn't like. If you don't ask her WHY she didn't like it - you are never going to solve that piece of the puzzle. Blaming her for rejecting you is VERY different than asking her WHY she rejected you. 

And that is the core question because: Lack of sex led to you withdrawing which led to her getting more upset. Vicious cycle. But THIS vicious cycle started with a pattern of rejection and there WAS a reason for that. WHAT is it?




DailyGrind said:


> {sigh}...yes....I know this. The proverbial chicken/egg story, here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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