# Where do you draw the line?



## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

So, I was on here before about four years ago. I had to re-register cuz I had forgotten all my login info entirely. Anyway, to make a looooong story short, my wife has over the years not been very faithful. Up to this point she has not had any physical relationships with another man. Four years ago it came close. Really close. It usually involves people online and she has periods where she flirts with other guys in private message, facebook, inside iPhone games etc. After our close call four years ago she promised she was done. Since then (and even a couple of months ago) I ask here if anything has come up with another man and she assures me nothing ever has. She's lied. She came to me two days ago and admitted she has been private messaging a few other guys again.

I feel like there is way too much to write here, but her reasoning is that she like to make people feel good. I ask her why she would flirt with a heavy balding guy when she has me? I take care of my body and I am a good looking guy. Her answer is "I have no idea". I honestly don't get it. 

We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them. I think I really do love them more than my wife. I know that's probably wrong, but there is no way I would be without them.

She tells me I am the only one for her and it's always been just me. I think that's BS. I don't see how she can claim that if she keeps going back to wanting to talk to other guys on line. maybe I am too sensitive? I just don't see how private messaging the opposite sex can be good in any relationship no matter who you are. I seriously wish I could come across some great women to boost my ego like other guys have done with her...seriously! Self esteem is zero here.

Anyway, how do you know when your spouse is just the cheating type and where do you draw the line?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them. I think I really do love them more than my wife. I know that's probably wrong, but there is no way I would be without them.



she will continue to cross that boundary because you refuse to enforce it


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Everyone's "line" is different... but I would have drawn mine after the first flirtation four years ago. "Do it again, and I'm done with you."

Your wife needs serious professional counseling to find out what's underneath her promiscuous behavior (sex or no sex with these men, her behavior is STILL promiscuous.)

What was her relationship with her father growing up? Did she feel abandoned by the men in her life? Did she have a lot of sex partners before the two of you got together? Does she have issues with shame or guilt that have never been dealt with?

Personally, I would cut the internet service to your home and her phone. Insist that she deactivate all these social media accounts and gaming sites. And get her into counseling quickly. Only then, after she figures out what the h*ll her problem is can you determine your course of action -- stay or go?


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## tryingpatience (May 7, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> she will continue to cross that boundary because you refuse to enforce it


I second that!


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

She will probably keep doing it because you lack conviction to leave her.

She gets the rush of multiple men wanting her.

If your not going to do anything, then what is the point of telling her to stop, it hasn't work well so far.

Adult are like children sometimes, where they need a consequences for their action for eing bad.

Since you made up your mind that no matter what your staying for the kids, it is something that you will have to live with.

She may leave you too if it goes far enough.

Don't forget, not all guys that play computer games are balding old men.

My cousin is a marine, plays wow, is into martial arts, and loves extreme sports.

Your using stereotypical thinking.


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## ReidWright (May 15, 2014)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them.


ok..so we're done here, I guess. She'll do whatever she wants, and she gets to keep you paying the bills and taking out the trash.

"I have no idea" isn't acceptable. She needs to figure it out quickly.


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

OP,

You have a wife that has some very deep rooted self-esteem/self-worth issues that she needs to address. Her need to have outside validation is way too strong & she is going to get it any way necessary. The reason why she keeps doing it is because there are no consequences to her actions. You stated yourself that you are never leaving your family, your wife has nothing to fear.

Your wife needs lots of individual counseling (& you could benefit from it too). You can draw a line to these emotional affairs she keeps having, but are you really going to enforce it? There's no point in drawing a line if you know deep in your heart you won't do anything about it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them...where do you draw the line?



You already drew the line. Your line is "cheat on me as much as you want, I'll never end the marriage cuz of offspring".

If you're not willing to end your marriage over even the most blatant disrespect and infidelity, you've made your choice. You'll have to learn to live with your "cheating type" and hope she cares enough about you to stop without the threat of any real action.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

But don't any of you have really good friend that are of the opposite sex? I personally don't. My wife is my only friend. I am just wondering if I am being unfair?


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## JustTired (Jan 22, 2012)

leetjay said:


> But don't any of you have really good friend that are of the opposite sex? I personally don't. My wife is my only friend. I am just wondering if I am being unfair?


If it bothers you & you are seeing that boundaries are being blurred or crossed....you aren't being unfair.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Considering your wife has poor boundaries, and lacks respect for you, she can't handle an opposite sex relationship.

If something better comes along, she may jump ship.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

leetjay said:


> But don't any of you have really good friend that are of the opposite sex? I personally don't. My wife is my only friend. I am just wondering if I am being unfair?


No - to high of a risk of an EA.

No - she needs to respect you and your M more.


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## nikoled (Mar 12, 2014)

I have a husband who has had bad boundaries for the past 20 years of our marriage that I just really realized when I discovered his affair 7 months ago. It has taken A LOT of work from both of us to identify issues and work on setting boundaries. It still is not perfect- he messed up just a couple of weeks ago, but he is learning (I think/hope!) and is showing signs that he is getting it. It is risky to stay with people with bad boundaries I think. I have chosen to take the risk for now, but I have also made it clear that he CANNOT mess up- there is no room for messups. I think you have to draw those lines and then see if they are willing to do the hard work. My husband is terrified of losing his family right now so that has kept him in check. Draw those lines, find out the whys and then see if she can do the work. It is risky so you just need to decide whether or not it is a risk you are willing to take.


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## Coco2014 (May 8, 2014)

People are different. Some people are just not marriage materials. Just like some people were born like singing, your wife were born like flirting. They cannot control themselves. It is just in them. You should just accept this idea( She is who she is) in stead of trying to figure out "Why she does this". I bet you she would do this to whoever she married to, not just to you. So don't take it personal and don't let it beat down your self esteem. 

I don't think anybody will feel happy to live with a spouse like that. But it is up to you, what you are going to do about it. I don't think changing her is an option. You can only make changes to yourself. You either accept it, or live with it until the kids grow up or leave her...


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## lovesmanis (Oct 9, 2014)

She needs attention.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them. I think I really do love them more than my wife. I know that's probably wrong, but there is no way I would be without them.


Well then, we are done here. She will continue doing what she wants because she knows you arent going anywhere. Oh and be prepared to watch your kids end up in the same marriage when they grow up.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

Coco2014 said:


> People are different. Some people are just not marriage materials. Just like some people were born like singing, your wife were born like flirting. They cannot control themselves. It is just in them. You should just accept this idea( She is who she is) in stead of trying to figure out "Why she does this". I bet you she would do this to whoever who married to, not just to you. So don't take it personal and don't let it beat down your self esteem.
> 
> I don't think anybody will feel happy to live with a spouse like that. But it is up to you, what you are going to do about it. I don't think changing her is an option. You can only make changes to yourself. You either accept it, or live with it until the kids grow up or leave her...


Yeah I think these are the cold hard facts. I guess I just don't get it. Don't need to. We are two separate people with different needs and opinions. It's just really hard to live with. I've tried to intensify it has just simple jealousy, and I honestly think some of it is...but some of it is just common sense to me and it hurts. It hurts to see her think she needs to have other guys in her life even if it's innocent. There have been plenty of innocent guys but something always eeks up and they flirt or she has feelings for them. TO me, it just seems way to risky.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

leetjay said:


> There have been plenty of innocent guys but something always eeks up and they flirt or she has feelings for them. TO me, it just seems way to risky.


Well, what are you going to do about it?

Where's YOUR line in the sand?


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Well, what are you going to do about it?
> 
> Where's YOUR line in the sand?


I know I want to make us right. But I also have felt like it needs to end. It's a hard next step.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

No such thing as opposite sex friends for her. Just opposite sex temptations. 

Nuke her accounts, no more online anything. She's on permanent probation. The sentence if violated is divorce. 

The kids will be better off with a happy Daddy than a sick family. 

You can have her served with D papers and if she folds, prepare your terms and demands. You can cancel the D anytime. She has to execute and behave or divorce. She does not have a vote. She lost it when she side-stepped her marriage. 

She owns her behavior. You own the marriage. Be a leader. Grow a pair and stop her sh!t. I'd get an STD test and DNA the kids for shock value.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Have you tried getting a legal separation.

It will give you time to re-evaluate your life, and see if you truly want to stay with your wife.

Then again, she just might cheat on yoou some more.

But you may be detach enough to see your wife better without the love goggles.

You may wonder why am I still with her, especially when she is expending her emotional energy elsewhere?

Until you decide, you can't move on with your life.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

No one here is going to give you advice on how to live with a cheater...


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them. I think I really do love them more than my wife. I know that's probably wrong, but there is no way I would be without them.


 At one point or another, you said something like this to your wife. Once she heard this, it was game on with these other men because she knew that there would be no consequences for her cheating. And yes, even if it never goes physical, having an emotional affair is cheating.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How about telling her you would like to see every pm she sends? That she should imagine your presence during every exchange? 

Then ask her how her conscience feels. Tell her that should be her guide.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

leetjay said:


> But don't any of you have really good friend that are of the opposite sex? I personally don't. My wife is my only friend. I am just wondering if I am being unfair?


No, I don't have a good friend of the opposite sex. Neither does my wife. Online contact with OM is something my W would not do. Same for me with OW. No desire to do so. We find fulfillment with each other. 

I don't think you are being unfair. I believe you W should be fair and let you know what is not fulfilled in her life. You can work on it if you don't know.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> I don't think you are being unfair. I believe you W should be fair and let you know what is not fulfilled in her life. You can work on it if you don't know.


She may not know either. Going to counseling could help draw her out.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

jld said:


> She may not know either. Going to counseling could help draw her out.


We are currently talking about finding a counselor.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

leetjay said:


> We are currently talking about finding a counselor.


 I cannot recall a single time on this board that a counselor was successful in putting an end to an emotional affair (EA) even when they tried. But I know of a number of times where the counselor put on the back burner addressing the EA as they focused on other issues that the cheater blame shifted as the cause of their EA. In other words, as long as she is in the EA, you can only lose by seeing a counselor now.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

leetjay said:


> Up to this point she has not had any physical relationships with another man.


And you know this *how*...? Please tell me that you're not just taking her word for it. Tell you what, maybe start w/ a paternity test for each of the kids.

Either way, the line should've been drawn a looooong time ago.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

leetjay said:


> I guess I just don't get it.
> 
> she needs to have other guys in her life even if it's innocent. .


No, you don't get it. 

Innocent? Are you kidding?

You, sir, are easy prey.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TRy said:


> I cannot recall a single time on this board that a counselor was successful in putting an end to an emotional affair (EA) even when they tried. But I know of a number of times where the counselor put on the back burner addressing the EA as they focused on other issues that the cheater blame shifted as the cause of their EA. In other words, as long as she is in the EA, you can only lose by seeing a counselor now.


Marduk said the first counselor he and his wife saw 12 years ago called her relationship with her friend an emotional affair, and was successful in shutting it down. It can happen.

I think the problem with emotional affairs is when it is not understood why there is the draw to start with. When that is understood, it may be possible to meet the need in other ways.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

jld said:


> Marduk said the first counselor he and his wife saw 12 years ago called her relationship with her friend an emotional affair, and was successful in shutting it down. It can happen.
> 
> I think the problem with emotional affairs is when it is not understood why there is the draw to start with. When that is understood, it may be possible to meet the need in other ways.


Yes I think it can. I have seen worse things be successful with proper treatment. As long as the core problems are addressed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you have a sense of what the core problems are?

What did you think of my idea of asking to see all her pm's?


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

jld said:


> Do you have a sense of what the core problems are?
> 
> What did you think of my idea of asking to see all her pm's?


Yeah I think she always felt like she was a disappointment to people growing up. It's a deep seeded issue. So now she makes up for it and tries to please people and is addicted to when people respond to her. I'm sick of hearing that I am enough when she still feels the need to have these male friends...no I'm not enough for her.

She agreed to let me see all her PMs but has deleted the past ones so that's kinda a moot point.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

leetjay said:


> Yeah I think she always felt like she was a disappointment to people growing up. It's a deep seeded issue. So now she makes up for it and tries to please people and is addicted to when people respond to her. I'm sick of hearing that I am enough when she still feels the need to have these male friends...no I'm not enough for her.
> 
> She agreed to let me see all her PMs but has deleted the past ones so that's kinda a moot point.


She was probably, almost undoubtedly, flirting again. She knows it is wrong and does not want you to see them. She is scared of your reaction. Probably is trying to avoid her own conscience, too.

It sounds like both of you have low self esteem. You draw yours from her affirmation of you through her monogamy, which is, at least emotionally, questionable right now. She draws hers from affirmation of her desirability from other men.

You wonder why you are not enough, but I would urge you not to take this too personally. See it more as an issue in her, something that, like you said, started long before you met her, than some kind of deficiency in you.

It would be wise, though, to take an honest look at how well you understand her emotional needs, and how much effort you put into meeting the ones you do understand. Not every woman is transparent; some you really have to study in order to understand them.

I do think she loves you. She is with you. To me, that says something important.

Counseling for both of you would be very helpful. You seem open and caring. I think you and she will be able to figure this out, set some healthy boundaries, and learn to meet each other's needs.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> It would be wise, though, to take an honest look at how well you understand her emotional needs, and how much effort you put into meeting the ones you do understand. Not every woman is transparent; some you really have to study in order to understand them.
> 
> *I do think she loves you. She is with you. To me, that says something important.*
> 
> Counseling for both of you would be very helpful. You seem open and caring. I think you and she will be able to figure this out, set some healthy boundaries, and* learn to meet each other's needs. *


Delusional as always, jld.  Her still being there doesnt mean a damn thing except that it serves her purpose right now. Why would she NOT still be there? She has kicked this puppy into submission to the point where all he does is roll over and allow her to do whatever the hell she wants, while contributing financially for her wants and needs. Her need being attention and validation from men who ARENT her husband! She doesnt give two sh!ts about what HIS needs are! You're still stuck in the land of lollipops and fluffy bunnies....


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Have you read MMSLP?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

leetjay said:


> We have kids. I think I can honestly say I would never leave a marriage because of them. I think I really do love them more than my wife. I know that's probably wrong, but there is no way I would be without them.
> 
> She tells me I am the only one for her and it's always been just me. I think that's BS.


 Maybe you wouldn't but she's doing a pretty good job of it. 

Look friend. Your fault. You let her do this without consequences and some day when you catch her ass in bed with a guy, she's going to tell you that she was trying to be nice to the guy because his dik was cold and she just wanted to warm it up so if wouldn't fall off and expect you to believe it. 

She's a married woman and a mother and she's not acting like neither one and you damn well better set down some real heavy boundaries on her because she has your number. She knows your going no where and with that, she has control of the reigns and just flat out making a ass out of you. if that's what you want then by all means keep it up and if by chance you wake up tomorrow and by a stroke of luck, find your back bone, then you better swing the hammer down real hard and put a stop to this crap real quick. Your choice. Live like your living now or make the changes and put a stop to this.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

6301 said:


> Maybe you wouldn't but she's doing a pretty good job of it.
> 
> Look friend. Your fault. You let her do this without consequences and some day when you catch her ass in bed with a guy, she's going to tell you that she was trying to be nice to the guy because his dik was cold and she just wanted to warm it up so if wouldn't fall off and expect you to believe it.
> 
> She's a married woman and a mother and she's not acting like neither one and you damn well better set down some real heavy boundaries on her because she has your number. She knows your going no where and with that, she has control of the reigns and just flat out making a ass out of you. if that's what you want then by all means keep it up and if by chance you wake up tomorrow and by a stroke of luck, find your back bone, then you better swing the hammer down real hard and put a stop to this crap real quick. Your choice. Live like your living now or make the changes and put a stop to this.


:iagree: Preaching TRUTH here!


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Obviously, you have not read MMSLP or probably have no intentions to read it.

Too bad, really. When betas are shown the truth, they shy away. Maybe another day. 

Enjoy the doormat you aggressively strive to be. Weak knees and no spine is included at no charge.

Drop any left over testosterone at the door on your way out... I'm sure it's not necessary.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

jld said:


> Marduk said the first counselor he and his wife saw 12 years ago called her relationship with her friend an emotional affair, and was successful in shutting it down. It can happen.


 OK so it can happen, but the odds are not in your favor that it will. Most counselors do not have training that taught them how to properly deal with emotional affairs, and even if they do have such training, most cheaters are in such a fog they usually stop going to the counselor when they are asked to drop their affair partner.


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

leetjay said:


> So now she makes up for it and tries to please people and is addicted to when people respond to her. .


fyi ... this is called being an attention *****. 

Are you going to keep making excuses for her or are you going to man up and kick her ass out?


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Get the word "WELCOME" tattooed across your forehead. And please wear your safety glasses as to not get dirt in your eyes from her wiping her shoes all over you. 
The way she has/is acting, you should already be re-married!!!


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

leetjay said:


> Yeah I think she always felt like she was a disappointment to people growing up. It's a deep seeded issue. So now she makes up for it and tries to please people and is addicted to when people respond to her. I'm sick of hearing that I am enough when she still feels the need to have these male friends...no I'm not enough for her.
> 
> *She agreed to let me see all her PMs but has deleted the past ones so that's kinda a moot point*.


She has to help you recover her deleted PMs in addition to letting you see future ones.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

jld said:


> She was probably, almost undoubtedly, flirting again. She knows it is wrong and does not want you to see them. She is scared of your reaction. Probably is trying to avoid her own conscience, too.
> 
> It sounds like both of you have low self esteem. You draw yours from her affirmation of you through her monogamy, which is, at least emotionally, questionable right now. She draws hers from affirmation of her desirability from other men.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your perspective...you have a very good voice of reason here.

I think you described "my" issue perfectly: I can admit that I do draw my esteem of our marriage through her level of monogamy. It's very true. If she's not 100% monogamous to me (to the extreme) then I think our relationship is worthless. She defines it differently than I do and I am probably too extreme. On the other hand, I also know when a door is opened a line gets crossed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

leetjay said:


> Thank you for your perspective...you have a very good voice of reason here.
> 
> I think you described "my" issue perfectly: I can admit that I do draw my esteem of our marriage through her level of monogamy. It's very true. If she's not 100% monogamous to me (to the extreme) then I think our relationship is worthless. She defines it differently than I do and I am probably too extreme. On the other hand, I also know when a door is opened a line gets crossed.


It is not okay for her to flirt with other men, and certainly not to cheat emotionally or physically. Not only is it terribly disrespectful to you, and disobedient to her marriage vows, but it will fall heavy on her conscience the rest of her life, when she does finally look herself in the mirror and face the error of her ways.

I am sorry you are in this situation, leetjay. But you seem steady and not a knee jerk type of man. I would urge you to seek counseling for both your marriage and each of you individually. Someone who can see each of you in person and compassionately look into your issues, while firmly holding both your feet to the fire, could really help you make progress. I wish you the best of luck.


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## leetjay (Nov 14, 2014)

jld said:


> It is not okay for her to flirt with other men, and certainly not to cheat emotionally or physically. Not only is it terribly disrespectful to you, and disobedient to her marriage vows, but it will fall heavy on her conscience the rest of her life, when she does finally look herself in the mirror and face the error of her ways.
> 
> I am sorry you are in this situation, leetjay. But you seem steady and not a knee jerk type of man. I would urge you to seek counseling for both your marriage and each of you individually. Someone who can see each of you in person and compassionately look into your issues, while firmly holding both your feet to the fire, could really help you make progress. I wish you the best of luck.


Agreed. And she already does feel the guilt. I can tell. Even when we have a very calm and reasonable conversation (I'm not the kind of guy who even gets outwardly angry) and she still takes it very hard and it weighs heavily on her.

And thank you jld for the kind words and support


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

leetjay said:


> Agreed. And she already does feel the guilt. I can tell. Even when we have a very calm and reasonable conversation (I'm not the kind of guy who even gets outwardly angry) and she still takes it very hard and it weighs heavily on her.
> 
> And thank you jld for the kind words and support


But yet, she continues to do it anyway....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

leetjay said:


> Agreed. And she already does feel the guilt. I can tell. Even when we have a very calm and reasonable conversation (I'm not the kind of guy who even gets outwardly angry) and she still takes it very hard and it weighs heavily on her.


That is good to hear, that her guilt is already so heavy you can see it. And your being able to remain calm speaks to your character, as does your commitment to your family. 

Your wife sounds sensitive, a good sign. She does not want to be bad, leetjay. Her being honest with you, when you asked her straight out if she had contacted other men, was a clue. She did not lie when confronted directly. She responds to authority. 

And she does see you as an authority in her life. You have earned that through your conduct with her over time. Her saying you are the only one she really wants to be with says that to me. She will listen to you, if there is more structure around what you say.

She wants to be good, but this desire, or even need, for affirmation is very strong. Maybe an addiction? 

And to me, addiction just means she is hurting in some way. The hurt is what needs to be addressed, and healed. And I know you already realize this. 

Again, I am really hoping that she can accept the discipline of hearing No to seeking to have this need met by other men. I do think you, along with the counselor, are going to have to be very proactive in helping her see this as an addiction that needs to be confronted and healed. And she is going to need much love and support and firmness from you as she tackles this. The firmness is as much a gift as the love and commitment.

And it goes without saying that there needs to be an abundance of affirmation for her, from her dear husband, that she is a valued, worthwhile woman. She needs to know you believe in her, as her own belief in herself is likely very shaky. Your belief in her can serve as scaffolding, as her own confidence, earned by taking steps to do the right thing, grows.

I think you are a fine husband and man to want to work on this challenge instead of automatically turning to divorce, leetjay. Your wife needs your help, and she is already responding to your leadership. I am optimistic for you.



> And thank you jld for the kind words and support


Anytime, leetjay. I believe you and your wife, together, can turn things around. 

I believe in your marriage. And I think you do, too. You just need encouragement from us, and good counsel from an IRL professional.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

so since it is okay for her to do this over and over and over again, then she would not have a problem with you have an A?

Did you ask her about that?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Another zombie thread................


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