# Limits of Honesty and Vulnerability



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Radical honesty and 100% vulnerability seem to be cornerstones for successful long term relationships but comments on recent threads have me questioning what those look like in a relationship. Is radical honesty negated if a partner considers the information disrespectful? Is vulnerability shattered if one partner has to watch everything they say to the other? 





I admit that I have never been one to practice those two things in any relationship but am rather envious of the people who do. IMO it takes a highly self-confident person to open oneself that way. I can't do it because I am one part not so confident as to find honest feedback hurtful but I am also aware of how hurtful some feedback can make others. Like the Justin Timberlake song says "_Sometimes the greatest the way to say something is to say nothing at all_"


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think radical honesty doesn't mean the same thing as brutal honesty.

Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes.

Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think radical honesty doesn't mean the same thing as brutal honesty.
> 
> Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes.
> 
> Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore.


This


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

When I first got married I was committed to absolute and complete honesty and that is how I interacted with my wife for many years. I have learned that some things should not be said. Your spouse is to invested in the relationship to handle some truths. Some truth hurts the others feelings. So I have learned not to say some things to my wife. I have also learned a lot about saying things in a constructive way. 

We still have complete honesty (what others are calling radical honesty), but we (especially me) are much more aware of, and avoid the negative honesty (what others called brutal honesty). I don't think I could feel comfortable in a relationship without complete honesty.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Great question. 

I think there is a balance to this, and also to how you handle the situations as they arise.

Many times I tell him “I need to think on that”, rather than giving my off the cuff answer. That answer may indeed be completely true, but given a chance to think about my wording and tone, can make a world of difference in how the words are reacted too.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There was an Isaac Asimof non SF short story called Truth to Tell that pointed out that the literal truth could tell a far greater lie.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> There was an Isaac Asimof non SF short story called Truth to Tell that pointed out that *the literal truth could tell a far greater lie.*


 Can you explain that? I think I need a taller glove.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> Can you explain that? I think I need a taller glove.


I'll link to it later.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_to_Tell

The point in the story is that Henry the waiter says that he hates it when one of the members of the dining club says "Scotch and Soda for a dying man!" every time he comes into the dining room.

However, he liked the man (which was the truth) and he said that if he had told him he hated it when he made the remark each time he attended the club that would have implied that he hated the man, which was untrue.

But the literal truth "I hate that remark" might have made the implication that he hated the man, which was utterly untrue.

Therefore the honest, brutal truth would have, actually, told a bigger lie.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think radical honesty doesn't mean the same thing as brutal honesty.
> 
> Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes.
> 
> Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore.


I would rewrite it like this...

Honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes

Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes but I still have sex with you because I still fancy you despite you being fat

Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore

:laugh:


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think radical honesty doesn't mean the same thing as brutal honesty.
> 
> Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes.
> 
> Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore.


I have a different scale.

Honesty- "Yes, Wife, I sometimes watch porn."

Radical Honesty- "Yes, Wife, I sometimes watch porn because I am not attracted to you since you gained weight and/or stopped grooming."

Brutal Honesty- "I masturbate to porn on the regular because you got too fat and/or unhygienic for me to get hard in your presence."


I'm a huge fan of complete honesty and vulnerability in a serious relationship or marriage. I can't see staying long term with someone I have to censor myself around or who censors themselves with me. I just can't trust or feel intimacy without complete honesty, even if it is of the brutal variety.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> I'm a huge fan of complete honesty and vulnerability in a serious relationship or marriage. I can't see staying long term with someone I have to censor myself around or who censors themselves with me. I just can't trust or feel intimacy without complete honesty, even if it is of the brutal variety.


Well, I lasted 35 years... :smile2:


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I have a different scale.
> 
> Honesty- "Yes, Wife, I sometimes watch porn."
> 
> ...


Your example of radical honesty is how I define it as well. For me, that level of honesty has only caused issues. 

I have mentioned this before but when I was about 4 months pregnant my ex husband started avoiding having sex with me. He finally admitted that he didn't want to have sex because he didn't find my pregnant body sexually attractive. It affected my ability to be vulnerable with him. I learned that if I wanted to have a healthy sexual relationship with him, i was going to have not put myself in such a vulnerable position again. No more babies. 

I tried the radical honesty when my ex was suffering from ED. It was the beginning of the end of the marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> There is also a quality that David Schnarch in his books refers to a marital sadism. That is after you have been married to a person for a long time you know their hot buttons and they know yours. In some marriages on partner gets joy or happiness from ripping the emotional heart out of their partner. This can destroy a marriage unless the victim feels they cannot leave.
> 
> Sometimes it is not so much active cruelty as it is indifference or neglect. One of Schnarch's stories is about a woman who knows that her husband would love her to have sex in a certain way. He marvels at how in a 30 to 50 year marriage it is beyond belief that based on random experimentation, that certain way would be avoided for all those years unless one of them was making sure it never happened. The point is sometimes lack of emotional support is an active choice.
> 
> ...


 @Young at Heart i moved your response to my post to this thread as I want to get your thoughts. 

How do you line up radical honesty and vulnerability with the bolded above? Do you think there is room for radical honesty in a situation where there are self image/ego issues?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Another aspect to honesty that I think is often missed is providing the information requested without necessarily providing information that is not. Honesty, radical or brutal also does not necessarily mean saying what ever the hell pops into ones head right when it does. In simplest form...

Wife: Husband, do you watch porn?

Husband: On occasion. Ever since you got stretch marks and gained weight from the baby, I an just not as attracted to you and need some help getting there.

Most of that response was not asked for. It goes down the road of over sharing. It is often detrimental to try and provide information for where you presume the other person may be going with a line of questioning, rather than waiting to see where they are actually going with it.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

leftfield said:


> When I first got married I was committed to absolute and complete honesty and that is how I interacted with my wife for many years. I have learned that some things should not be said. Your spouse is to invested in the relationship to handle some truths. Some truth hurts the others feelings. So I have learned not to say some things to my wife. I have also learned a lot about saying things in a constructive way.
> 
> We still have complete honesty (what others are calling radical honesty), but we (especially me) are much more aware of, and avoid the negative honesty (what others called brutal honesty). I don't think I could feel comfortable in a relationship without complete honesty.


In general, I agree. But at the same time, I think some of us manage to change our view of the "complete honesty" part and honestly come around to recognizing that despite those extra pounds and curves that no longer bounce but, at best, sway... she is still the most effin' beautiful thing int he world to us. A cop-out? Yeah, maybe. I'd prefer to say adaptive love.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Lila said:


> Radical honesty and 100% vulnerability seem to be cornerstones for successful long term relationships but comments on recent threads have me questioning what those look like in a relationship. Is radical honesty negated if a partner considers the information disrespectful? Is vulnerability shattered if one partner has to watch everything they say to the other?
> 
> I admit that I have never been one to practice those two things in any relationship but am rather envious of the people who do. IMO it takes a highly self-confident person to open oneself that way. I can't do it because I am one part not so confident as to find honest feedback hurtful but I am also aware of how hurtful some feedback can make others. Like the Justin Timberlake song says "_Sometimes the greatest the way to say something is to say nothing at all_"


As I've said many, many times before, the problem with what you describe is when just one partner is being open and honest, while the other partner _claims_ to be, but is presenting a false narrative. If both parties are playing fair, I don't think they'll get to the point of saying something incredibly hurtful because whatever it is that's hurtful won't have had a chance to build up to something so big & terrible. It will start as just a thing, and the point to the honest conversation is that they adapt. A couple that can't adapt ends up splitting up much sooner than later. So when you look at older couples who have been radically honest or whatever, you're also looking at survivors of a process. People who have stuck to honesty and used it to their advantage, as a couple, rather than something divisive.

But, again, and again, and again... both parties have to be true and not hiding. No false narratives.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> Another aspect to honesty that I think is often missed is providing the information requested without necessarily providing information that is not. Honesty, radical or brutal also does not necessarily mean saying what ever the hell pops into ones head right when it does. In simplest form...
> 
> Wife: Husband, do you watch porn?
> 
> ...


I agree completely but I'm actually surprised you mentioned this. I recall a back and forth you and I got into a while back. I can't recall the exact topic of the thread but you and I discussed the reason I would give to a man who asked why I would not swallow semen. I said my response would simply be "i don't like it" and you seemed to think that wasn't enough information when the real reason was I found it disgusting. 

It seems like there is no black and white to radical honesty but rather a whole lot of gray.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Lila said:


> Radical honesty and 100% vulnerability seem to be cornerstones for successful long term relationships but comments on recent threads have me questioning what those look like in a relationship. Is radical honesty negated if a partner considers the information disrespectful? Is vulnerability shattered if one partner has to watch everything they say to the other?


 @Lila, 

I've given your post some thought, as well as considering what @Faithful Wife said:


> I think radical honesty doesn't mean the same thing as brutal honesty.
> 
> Radical honesty - yes my loving wife, I do watch porn sometimes.
> 
> Brutal honesty - yes wife, I do watch porn sometimes because you have totally let yourself go and I'm not attracted to you anymore.


At first I kind of agreed with what she wrote in that I don't think there's a need to be cruel when being honest, and that sometimes the tone and timing and words chosen are important. (Nod) I still believe that too. 

*BUT* (and it's a big but)...

For me, I do not use the differentiation of radical vs. brutal as a justification for lack of transparency or vulnerability. So rather than defining it as if it's 100% one or the other, I think of it in terms of transparency...or being "see through" or having the True Me visible (aka "vulnerability"). 

Let's use the example of watching porn. I personally do not watch porn because I'm satisfied with what's happening in real life, but I don't morally object to porn, and I have in the course of my life watched some so that I do know what I like and don't like, etc. Now, if @Emerging Buddhist were to ask me if I'm watching porn, my goal would not be to be radical or brutal either one...but rather to be transparent to him so that he sees and knows the Real Me (not some image I hope to present). I don't want to be anything less than fully transparent because then I would be saying by my actions that I don't believe he has the mental health and emotional tools to deal with and handle the Real Me. So transparency might be saying "I'm not watching any porn right now, but you know what kind I do like if I do watch? _____" Or it might be "let me think about that a minute" and opening myself up to him and letting him know, in the kindest, truest way possible that in fact I had been watching ___ porn because I have been feeling horny in between sessions. 

Thus, yes, I do filter things through "Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" and on occasion, I do find I can completely and fully be the Real Me without necessarily having to voice something. Much more often, I find that in order to keep my walls down and let him in to see the True Me (warts and all), I do need to voice something. I need to let him see my weaker side, my mistakes, the things I don't do well, the things I'm afraid of, the things that hurt me...and I need to have faith that he is mature enough and has the tools to deal with and handle who I truly am. 

And likewise, I do expect the same from him. I get it--being that open to another person is pretty scary. And yet that's what true intimacy is, in my mind...not "sex" but full and open sharing of my Self with him...and his Self with me. To fully share, I need to take the risk and let him "see through" to my true inner core. Then when he sees that, and I see him, it is transparency and true intimacy. 

That's my 2 cents.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Lila said:


> I agree completely but I'm actually surprised you mentioned this. I recall a back and forth you and I got into a while back. I can't recall the exact topic of the thread but you and I discussed the reason I would give to a man who asked why I would not swallow semen. I said my response would simply be "i don't like it" and you seemed to think that wasn't enough information when the real reason was I found it disgusting.
> 
> It seems like there is no black and white to radical honesty but rather a whole lot of gray.


Fair enough, however...

This gets into follow on questions rather than providing answers to questions not asked. I remember that discussion a bit, and yeah, for me, if it was something I was genuinely desiring, or interested in, I would likely want more information beyond "I just don't like it" Follow up questions as to what is bad about it such as taste and texture, feelings of being degraded, and such, because I would want to know if there would be anything I could do or change that would change that answer. That I think is where radical and brutal honesty comes in I guess.

Now if it was a hard "I don't like it" with an implied "Now drop it", well then, the respectful thing would be to drop it.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

You know this is such a hard topic... 

I want honesty from both of us. I don't want us to intentionally be hurtful. 

But I want to know what is going on, how else are we supposed to deal with stuff. And improve stuff...

Being vulnerable, for a guy that is hard, and I really don't trust most women enough to be vulnerable. It is just so hard. 

And the fact is, no matter what anyone says, most women don't really want a man to be vulnerable. They don't, they say they do, and they don't. 

I have seen it so many times, I will never do it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

There's honesty, and then there's Honesty... and then there's HONESTY.

By which I mean, you can turn down the sensitivity and turn up the brutality slowly until you reach the right mixture to communicate the information you're trying to say.

Using FW's example would lead to something like this with me:

"Husband, do you ever watch porn?" 

(Request for binary info, meaning a yes/no. But wisdom tells me that's not really what she's asking me, because we watch porn together occasionally, so I need to calibrate my response to what she's actually looking for).

"We watch it together sometimes, so I suspect that's not what you're asking me. Are you asking me if I ever watch porn alone?"

"Yes, we haven't been having as much sex lately and I'm wondering if I'm not enough for you."

(Aha! We have the real ask: she is feeling vulnerable and is seeking reassurance about her attractiveness, or at least clarity about what is going on).

"Wife, you know I do very occasionally, but that's not the reason I haven't been coming onto you as much..." (and then provides the reason, which could be anything from stress, illness, fatigue, perceptions of disinterest on her part, relationship conflict, weight gain, etc.)

The real problem isn't porn (unless it is, of course). The real problem is usually that someone's seeking reassurance, which means more effort is needed on one or both person's part.

For example, a guy I knew years ago stopped having sex with his wife and used porn instead. This, of course, was very distressing to her. Turns out it wasn't because he wasn't attracted to her, he was just lazy, and porn asked nothing of him, but she did.

I think you need to continually calibrate intention and need, especially with closed questions - because those are usually not the real questions being asked.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

In Absentia said:


> Well, I lasted 35 years... :smile2:


I couldn't do it. I'd be too lonely and longing for a love with mutual sharing of total self.



Lila said:


> Your example of radical honesty is how I define it as well. For me, that level of honesty has only caused issues.
> 
> I have mentioned this before but when I was about 4 months pregnant my ex husband started avoiding having sex with me. He finally admitted that he didn't want to have sex because he didn't find my pregnant body sexually attractive. It affected my ability to be vulnerable with him. I learned that if I wanted to have a healthy sexual relationship with him, i was going to have not put myself in such a vulnerable position again. No more babies.
> 
> I tried the radical honesty when my ex was suffering from ED. It was the beginning of the end of the marriage.


I've had the opposite experience in my marriage, which is my only experience of radical honesty in a relationship. It just works for us. I'm fairly sure the level of openness and honesty combined with our shared belief that privacy has no place in a marriage wouldn't work out well for probably the majority of couples. I guess this is one of those areas where our individual crazy's are compatible.

This level of honesty would probably make most people uncomfortable. For us, it makes us feel closer, accepted, more secure, even when feelings get a bit hurt or ego's a tad bruised.



samyeagar said:


> Another aspect to honesty that I think is often missed is providing the information requested without necessarily providing information that is not. Honesty, radical or brutal also does not necessarily mean saying what ever the hell pops into ones head right when it does. In simplest form...
> 
> Wife: Husband, do you watch porn?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't consider that over sharing. I'd consider that crucial information. As a wife, I'd want to know if my husband was less attracted to me after birth and what I could do to work on it with him. Sex is important to a healthy adult romantic relationship and sometimes life throws a curve ball and you have to put in some effort to maintain a good sexual connection. You can't fix an issue you don't know you have.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I get it--being that open to another person is pretty scary. And yet that's what true intimacy is, in my mind...not "sex" but full and open sharing of my Self with him...and his Self with me. To fully share, I need to take the risk and let him "see through" to my true inner core. Then when he sees that, and I see him, it is transparency and true intimacy.
> 
> That's my 2 cents.


It is scary which is why I envy those who have it.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> You know this is such a hard topic...
> 
> I want honesty from both of us. I don't want us to intentionally be hurtful.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is a male vs female issue. I'm a woman and I find being vulnerable to be a very difficult thing. Going back to the ego thread... I too don't think _most _men want a completely honest wife. Some things are better left unsaid in my book.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> I wouldn't consider that over sharing. I'd consider that crucial information. As a wife, I'd want to know if my husband was less attracted to me after birth and what I could do to work on it with him. Sex is important to a healthy adult romantic relationship and sometimes life throws a curve ball and you have to put in some effort to maintain a good sexual connection. You can't fix an issue you don't know you have.


But what if there was nothing to do about it. Do you still think sharing that information is useful?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> In general, I agree. But at the same time, I think some of us manage to change our view of the "complete honesty" part and honestly come around to recognizing that despite those extra pounds and curves that no longer bounce but, at best, sway... she is still the most effin' beautiful thing int he world to us. A cop-out? Yeah, maybe. I'd prefer to say adaptive love.



To be honest with yourself, you need to understand that this is a feeling that has developed over the course of your shared relationship. It is not an unbiased evaluation.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Marduk said:


> There's honesty, and then there's Honesty... and then there's HONESTY.
> 
> By which I mean, you can turn down the sensitivity and turn up the brutality slowly until you reach the right mixture to communicate the information you're trying to say.
> 
> ...


Calibrating intentions is a great point which bears discussion. Does there need to be radical honesty is there is no solution to the problem?


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> It is scary which is why I envy those who have it.


It is scary to begin with, but it becomes who you are and your closeness with your partner will continue to grow.



Lila said:


> I don't think this is a male vs female issue. I'm a woman and I find being vulnerable to be a very difficult thing. Going back to the ego thread... I too don't think most men want a completely honest wife. Some things are better left unsaid in my book.


Yes there are things that should not be said, but if your partner wants to talk about them it is best to address the topic honestly. If your partner doesn't want to discuss it then you don't bring it up. For example: My wife spent around $100 on my wedding band and I was not happy about it. But I don't ever say: 'I think it was dumb to spend $100 when a $5 ring would have been fine with me'. There is no need for that to ever be said, but if my wife ever asks then I will tell her what I think.




Lila said:


> Calibrating intentions is a great point which bears discussion. Does there need to be radical honesty is there is no solution to the problem?


For me the answer would be yes in almost every situation.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> But what if there was nothing to do about it. Do you still think sharing that information is useful?


Speaking for myself in my relationship; Yes, in general the information is useful. If there really is nothing you can do about it, you need to learn to let it go and not dwell on it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Lila said:


> MJJEAN said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't consider that over sharing. I'd consider that crucial information. As a wife, I'd want to know if my husband was less attracted to me after birth and what I could do to work on it with him. Sex is important to a healthy adult romantic relationship and sometimes life throws a curve ball and you have to put in some effort to maintain a good sexual connection. You can't fix an issue you don't know you have.
> ...


I'm wondering that, too. Like, does he need to know his jowls are sagging as he enters his 60s? Does she need to know her breasts are sagging? And that they are both a turn off? Nothing to do about those except for surgery...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

leftfield said:


> It is scary to begin with, but it becomes who you are and your closeness with your partner will continue to grow.


Do you think that it's possible for all age groups? 

I feel the older I get, the less vulnerable I'm willing to be. Once bitten twice shy. 



leftfield said:


> For me the answer would be yes in almost every situation.


Why? Would you find it useful to prepare for a separation from that person?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I'm wondering that, too. Like, does he need to know his jowls are sagging as he enters his 60s? Does she need to know her breasts are sagging? And that they are both a turn off? Nothing to do about those except for surgery...


Yeah, that's my thinking as well.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Lila said:


> Do you think that it's possible for all age groups?
> 
> I feel the older I get, the less vulnerable I'm willing to be. Once bitten twice shy.
> 
> ...


I might be missing your train of thought. Not all unsolvable issues would lead to separation.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

double post


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

leftfield said:


> I might be missing your train of thought. Not all unsolvable issues would lead to separation.


You're right. As long as resentment does not set in, I think all things can be managed. It's when resentment sets in that things go to hell in a hand basket. Depending on the insolvable issue, egos may be bruised to the point of no return, at least that's been my experience.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> Calibrating intentions is a great point which bears discussion. Does there need to be radical honesty is there is no solution to the problem?


Depends on what the asker is really looking for. Sometimes what they are asking for with words isn't what they are really asking for at all.

For example, in many cases I think when people are asking "Am I the best you've ever had," what they really mean is "Am I good enough, or are you settling for me while pining for someone else?"

Or with porn, it's probably something like "are you not attracted to me enough," or whatever. The answer people need is sometimes not at all the answer to the question they are asking, so to be ruthlessly honest regarding the question they are asking may be an unskillful approach. I like to calibrate without trying to dance around the question.

If she insists on total honesty, of course I give it to her. But that usually ends badly for everyone involved.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Depends on what the asker is really looking for. Sometimes what they are asking for with words isn't what they are really asking for at all.
> 
> For example, in many cases I think when people are asking "Am I the best you've ever had," what they really mean is "Am I good enough, or are you settling for me while pining for someone else?"
> 
> ...


But is the bolded radical honesty?

Use the example of me and my ex where he said he didn't find my pregnant body sexually attractive. How about the woman who's body has been wrecked by pregnancies and whose partner doesn't find her sexually attractive anymore?


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> But is the bolded radical honesty?
> 
> Use the example of me and my ex where he said he didn't find my pregnant body sexually attractive. How about the woman who's body has been wrecked by pregnancies and whose partner doesn't find her sexually attractive anymore?


I think the first example is just brutal and callous. It was a short term issue.

The second is more troublesome because there is no resolution to a real problem and might require radical honesty.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

attheend02 said:


> I think the first example is just brutal and callous. It was a short term issue.
> 
> *The second is more troublesome because there is no resolution to a real problem and might require radical honesty*.


Would that radical honesty be followed on with divorce papers? I'm trying to understand how radical honesty would do any good in a situation where there is no win. If the person exposing the truth is willing to work on "living with it" or "ignoring" then why even bring it up at all? If they are not willing to work through it, then they are essentially asking to split up.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> But is the bolded radical honesty?
> 
> Use the example of me and my ex where he said he didn't find my pregnant body sexually attractive. How about the woman who's body has been wrecked by pregnancies and whose partner doesn't find her sexually attractive anymore?


Maybe it is. My point is to aim before you shoot.

Let's game out your example. Wife asks her husband "Do you not find me attractive any more?"

The brutal and blunt answer might be "No. Thanks for having my kids, but your body just doesn't work for me any more. I prefer porn."

Or, he could calibrate: "Are you asking me that because you are worried about my attraction to you, or are you worried about the changes to your body and that you're feeling unattractive?"

She might then say: "Well, you won't have sex with me and you're using porn a lot. I'm really worried about our marriage, and I'm really feeling unfulfilled."

So she might actually not be looking for feedback at all about her body or about sex. She might instead be looking for reassurance that he's not going to leave her, and to regain some sense of intimacy. So then he might say:

"Wife, I'm actually struggling adjusting to our new life with kids and the changes to your body. I miss the way we used to be. Are there other ways we can connect?"

Or, she might say "Listen, level with me bub. I just want to know if you're not attracted to me any more."

To which he might indeed say "No. Thanks for having my kids, but your body just doesn't work for me any more. I prefer porn now." Which might naturally lead to a divorce or something, because you now have a fork in the path. Or some kind of compromise that keeps them together and relatively satisfied.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Marduk said:


> Maybe it is. My point is to aim before you shoot.
> 
> Let's game out your example. Wife asks her husband "Do you not find me attractive any more?"
> 
> ...


Sadly the bolded is typically where these no win situations lead because eventually people realize one person's trash is another person's treasure.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Lila said:


> Sadly the bolded is typically where these no win situations lead because eventually people realize one person's trash is another person's treasure.


Maybe.

But I've also felt like I'm at a fork in the road because my wife defaults to brutal honesty about everything, when sometimes all I'm looking for is support or validation. The fork in the road was only there because she was brutally honest about a question that wasn't really my question.

I'm not saying to not be honest. Hell, I can't even believe I'm the one saying this, but sometimes an answer to a stupid question is just a hug or acknowledgment or something.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

To me, honesty and vulnerability are not ends in themselves. The goal would be deeper intimacy - not accurate facts.

Also, information is now so abundant, we tend to take it for granted and act like we're entitled to it. To me, it should be earned.

We need to go backwards a little and teach our children how to vet those they allow into their lives. Especially when choosing friends and accepting dates. 

Ask questions - hard questions. 

Discover who people actually are. 

Then you decide who to be honest and vulnerable with.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Speaking for myself in my relationship; Yes, in general the information is useful. If there really is nothing you can do about it, you need to learn to let it go and not dwell on it.


Even if the information isn't "useful" or actionable at the time, that could change down the road.

Even radical honesty doesn't assure there are no misunderstanding because people don't process the same information exactly the same way, or at the same speed. What makes sense right then and there to one person might take a bit of time for the other. 

Meaning, even if it doesn't seem like you're saying or hearing something that needs to be said or told, over time, it might become clear why it did. Why it mattered.


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## attheend02 (Jan 8, 2019)

Lila said:


> Would that radical honesty be followed on with divorce papers? I'm trying to understand how radical honesty would do any good in a situation where there is no win. If the person exposing the truth is willing to work on "living with it" or "ignoring" then why even bring it up at all? If they are not willing to work through it, then they are essentially asking to split up.


I guess that radical honesty in this case might produce radical results (divorce being a possibility). It would seem necessary to change the dynamic.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

attheend02 said:


> I guess that radical honesty in this case might produce radical results (divorce being a possibility). It would seem necessary to change the dynamic.




Exactly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

minimalME said:


> To me, honesty and vulnerability are not ends in themselves. The goal would be deeper intimacy - not accurate facts.
> 
> Also, information is now so abundant, we tend to take it for granted and act like we're entitled to it. To me, it should be earned.
> 
> ...


Sure, and there's just the frail human memory system as well.

I mean, I literally am not sure how many women I've slept with, I only remember a few of their names, and zero of them matter to me any more except 1 (my wife). So when she asks me about something specific from 25 years ago, I'm like "huh? I have a hard time remembering what I did last weekend."

But then there's a temptation to make something up, or just say what you think might be true. And if she asks you about the same thing six months later, you might say something different - but do so in all honesty. And then you're giving the perception that you're lying. 

I mean, how much of this stuff really matters? I'm not even the same person I was 25 years ago. It was just somebody else with my DNA and basic personality running around. Probably having a lot more fun than me. Damn you, young me.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Lila said:


> I don't think this is a male vs female issue. I'm a woman and I find being vulnerable to be a very difficult thing. Going back to the ego thread... I too don't think _most _men want a completely honest wife. Some things are better left unsaid in my book.


You know what, I cannot speak for MOST men, but I do want honesty. 

I don't want her to be a jerk, but hey if you don't like something I do sexually or a personal habit, good grief let's talk about it. 

I want to know, why are we together if we cannot talk. 

I do understand that it is hard to be honest, but I still desire it...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

While I admire this stark openness, it cannot be good in the long run.

We each have our shortcomings, and some can be lessened and some are difficult or impossible to eliminate. 

Picking at the others wounds with spoken truth {those honestly sharpened words}, will sooner or later, lead the other to bleed bitter thoughts, to have sore feelings. It will lead to resentment and maybe hate.


A little tolerance and temperance can go a long way to happiness. 
Accepting of your SO's 'small' flaws shows maturity. Each of us has some 'annoying idiosyncrasies'.

We are not talking about those 'thought major' behavioral discrepancies, but those niggling ones.
If every dislike is 'major' to one party, than the unreasonable major needs to go at life alone, being totally 'private' in their life.

We all know people who skin tingles from the smallest ripple. Suffer all those poor souls who live with them!

Hopefully, the mercy of wording is reciprocated by that flawed person, so pardoned!

In short, honesty is honestly exhausting, if over demanded.

Love one as they are, or not at all. 
Leave those who do make you, often miserable, love those who make you 'mostly' happy.

Complain in your head, save your words for real torts, instead.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think far, far, too many people see the notion of radical honesty as something that precludes being kind. As if there are only the poles - nice lies on one end and brutal honesty on the other - with no continuum in between and no balance required. They see the options in a relationship as either always saying what their partner wants to hear or telling their partner every thought that creeps into their head no matter how unkind. They cannot imagine that it is possible to be both honest about things that are important and kind to their partner. 

I suspect most people who don't think you can be both kind _and_ honest feel that way because they've been dishonest (with themselves, with their partner, maybe both) for so long that too many issues have festered. At a certain point, the truth _is_ going to be brutal. Because there's no kind way to say "I haven't loved you in years and I'm only here because 'it's cheaper to keep her!'" or "I think your body is repulsive!". The thing about radical honesty, is that it needs to be how a relationship is _structured_, not something you fall back on as a last resort once things have gotten to a crisis point. There _are_ kind ways to say, "This thing is bothering me, can we talk about it?" or "It's hard for me to maintain attraction to people who are overweight". But those things need to be discussed from the very start, not after they've been lingering for years. Once there are huge issues, years of silence and conflict avoidance, or a boatload of seething resentment, chances are good that the ability to be kind while also very honest has long passed. 

I think to make radical honesty work, you need to start out that way. And I think you have to start out by being radically honest with yourself. Honest about who you are, what you want, what you're willing to give, what you can and can't truly commit to. You have to be fearlessly brave about both giving _and_ receiving kind but honest feedback, and working with that honesty to make things better for both partners - even if that "better" means the relationship ends. 

If the ultimate goal is to preserve _this_ relationship no matter the cost, then radical honesty is very hard. If the ultimate goal is to be happy and thriving, in a relationship with this person or someone more compatible or even alone, then radical honesty is easier.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Lila said:


> But what if there was nothing to do about it. Do you still think sharing that information is useful?


Absolutely. Even if there is no solution I still want to know and to understand. 



Lila said:


> Calibrating intentions is a great point which bears discussion. Does there need to be radical honesty is there is no solution to the problem?


I think so. I don't want to live under false pretenses. If there is no solution, ok. I at least want to understand there is a problem, be able to decide the direction of my life based on what is, be supported, and give support.

Besides, just because Partner A thinks there is no solution doesn't mean there actually isn't. The Partner B might very well be able to offer a solution that never occurred to Partner A.



Livvie said:


> I'm wondering that, too. Like, does he need to know his jowls are sagging as he enters his 60s? Does she need to know her breasts are sagging? And that they are both a turn off? Nothing to do about those except for surgery...


Our hypothetical he knows his jowls are sagging. Our hypothetical she knows her boobs dropped. Why not just have it out in the open and talked about?




Lila said:


> Would that radical honesty be followed on with divorce papers? I'm trying to understand how radical honesty would do any good in a situation where there is no win. If the person exposing the truth is willing to work on "living with it" or "ignoring" then why even bring it up at all? If they are not willing to work through it, then they are essentially asking to split up.


I think this falls under informed consent for me. If my husband finds me sexually undesirable, for example, but is willing to "live with it" or "ignore" it I think I should also be given the choice. Maybe having a partner feel/think I'm not sexually desirable isn't something I'm willing to live with or ignore.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

This radical honesty thing can go too far in certain circumstances. 

If one SO cooks supper and asks how was this? on a rare time it was, well, almost terrible, just tolerable. Just respond with it was bad, almost terrible instead of, well it was good, just maybe not a favorite. 

Or "do these make my butt look fat?" 

I'm taking a couple frequent and common such examples but tact in certain situations goes a long way in a relationship.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> Absolutely. Even if there is no solution I still want to know and to understand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You can't handle the truth!


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

Marduk said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Sadly the bolded is typically where these no win situations lead because eventually people realize one person's trash is another person's treasure.
> ...


This.

I find that some people laud "radical honesty" because they just don't want to bother with tact, nuance, or actually having some kindness.

Then there's that weirdo controlling radical honesty advocated by a marital cult leader.

Both if the above give me the willies.

And I completely reject the idea that only liars worry about being kind, as implied by another poster. That's some of that cult word twisting nonsense.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

justlistening said:


> This.
> 
> I find that some people laud "radical honesty" because they just don't want to bother with tact, nuance, or actually having some kindness.
> 
> ...


As someone once said... 'what you call just being honest I call just being an *******.'


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## justlistening (Jan 23, 2020)

Marduk said:


> justlistening said:
> 
> 
> > This.
> ...


Exactly.

Theres a cultlike marriage guru that says you're dishonest unless you provide a detailed history down to the crush you had in 3rd grade. And make sure you go no contact with that crush.

Ridiculous.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Affaircare said:


> Thus, yes, I do filter things through "Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?" and on occasion, I do find I can completely and fully be the Real Me without necessarily having to voice something. Much more often, I find that in order to keep my walls down and let him in to see the True Me (warts and all), I do need to voice something. I need to let him see my weaker side, my mistakes, the things I don't do well, the things I'm afraid of, the things that hurt me...and I need to have faith that he is mature enough and has the tools to deal with and handle who I truly am.
> 
> And likewise, I do expect the same from him. I get it--being that open to another person is pretty scary. And yet that's what true intimacy is, in my mind...not "sex" but full and open sharing of my Self with him...and his Self with me. To fully share, I need to take the risk and let him "see through" to my true inner core. Then when he sees that, and I see him, it is transparency and true intimacy.





Lila said:


> It is scary which is why I envy those who have it.


One of AC's most precious leads in sharing a "from the heart" thought is "permission to speak freely"? I've always smiled when this is offered because what I hear is "do you trust me"? and the answer is always "please" which is simple honesty at it's heart because I do trust her.

Honesty and trust go hand in hand... they must or everything associated with it is less.

And trust is never defensive.


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## Carburatedexcuses (Jun 4, 2019)

At the beginning of this someone said honesty was a corner stone in the good relationships that they had observed. Another word for honesty in the context you guys are talking about it is negative feedback. Honesty is important in a relationship but radical honesty is not the cause of a good relationship it’s the result of it it’s like you don’t plant the seed in bad soil to make the soil good.



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## Carburatedexcuses (Jun 4, 2019)

I usually don’t read entire threats but I’ve read this one. I want that honesty in my marriage but I don’t have it. She has license to dish anything she is thinking at me but it is not allowed in reciprocation the defensiveness is way too high.I wish there was a way to fix this.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Carburatedexcuses said:


> I usually don’t read entire threats but I’ve read this one. I want that honesty in my marriage but I don’t have it. She has license to dish anything she is thinking at me but it is not allowed in reciprocation the defensiveness is way too high.I wish there was a way to fix this.


My previous marriage was a lot like this, at times I thought she saw cruelty as a privilege and when I wanted to address something I was told to "work on my own self".

So I did... I took to task making sure I had the awareness to evaluate the many times I was told how broken I was.

Once I realized that while she portrayed me as something I wasn't and the only examples given were of over a decade ago, I realized many of her perceptions were legacy of how we were so unkind to another in the early days of struggling incompatibility. In such times, clear boundaries with compassion was my saving grace as we drifted into toxic incompatibility and eventually divorce at her request. It was like when she realized that she had no more control in being able to get the reactions she wanted, her desire stay changed... she simply seemed to want the effort to be external, not internal.

My learned and best response was to buffer everything with kindness and in that quickly realized that the unhappiness was much less me than presented once I made sure my engagements for mutual improvement were based on being true, kind, and necessary.

If both parties can learn these things... boundaries with compassion, buffering tension first with kindness, ensuring your words are full of mindful and open self-evaluation first and truly necessary when disagreements arise you will find that honesty is second nature to every thought.

Lead your love, set the example and allow the path in front of you the right foundation... then trust the process.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Carburatedexcuses said:


> I usually don’t read entire threats but I’ve read this one. I want that honesty in my marriage but I don’t have it. She has license to dish anything she is thinking at me but it is not allowed in reciprocation the defensiveness is way too high.I wish there was a way to fix this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


EB is Buddhist so he has that whole zen thing going on (kudos to him!). But; if you're an ordinary mortal, you can try explaining to her that for every mean thing she says to you she has to say ten nice things to make up for it. Otherwise every dig kills a little more of your love for her and eventually there will be none left. It's the love bucket routine.


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