# Lack of anticipation of pleasure (on W's part) is killing me/us



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

It's taken me a while to figure out what the driving force is between the lack of desire I feel coming from my wife. And I'm not talking about desire just for sex.

She is unable to anticipate pleasure. It could be as simple as that. She lives in the moment. The only reason she can keep excited and interested on a vacation is because it's a collection of fun moments, one after another.

Examples? She's got issues with her back and shoulders, as well as problems with one arm where damaged lymph nodes (from cancer surgery) don't drain properly. Over the past few months I've learned how to do back rubs and erase the pain from one of her nerves, relax her neck, and drain the fluid from her arm so she feels a whole lot better the next day. At the time I'm doing it, she's greatly appreciative and even enjoys it. But she doesn't look forward to it. Logically, that's been a huge hurdle for me to get past. I can selflessly do things for her, that make her feel better, but I've not once, ever, had her tell me during the day it's something she looks forward to. 

And yes, we've taken the 5 Love Languages course, read the book, and she knows I'm fed by "Affirmative words." And, curiously, she's fed by "Physical touch." 

She'll also tell me how much better she feels after I've helped wash her in the shower. I can use the sponge thingee on her back and other places that are tough for her to get. She tells me, then, how much better she feels afterward. But just try and convince her to let me help. 

I'm going to be talking about this exact thing when I see my therapist next week, and hope she can get on the same page when she talks with hers. This is really tearing me up. She knows how much it would mean to me to hear something from her, once in a while, during the day, that she's looking forward to her back rub or the shower time. And it needs to be pointed out that I've told her ahead of time, and kept my promise when I've told her this, that it wouldn't lead to anything else afterward. 

I couldn't get to sleep until 2am last night, just thinking about this. And for those who've read my earlier thread, yes, things are made worse knowing that she wasn't always like this, before we met. Anticipation was everything to her. And yes, I get that people change with stability. They've found what they were looking for (she's even told me she was searching for her life-long mate, someone to marry, not just a boyfriend, when she met me) and their mind goes into a different mode, no longer trying to attract the opposite sex but now settled in. 

She knows all this. She says she's working on it. That change takes time. But change might also require recognizing that something has to be done at times, and that simply wanting to change and not following through can feel even worse to the other person. I think that's where I am right now. You get a feeling of hopelessness when someone says they understand, they have to change, they understand the consequences of not changing, but... nothing changes. And yes, she's on Prozac and Wellbutrin, although we've gotten her Prozac dose reduced a bit, thinking maybe that's been blunting her too much emotionally.

I'd love to hear from someone on TAM that they've broken through a situation like this. I'd also like to hear thoughts on the unthinkable- would absence actually make the heart grow fonder? My feeling is that separation inevitably leads to splitting up, not bringing people back together. But I'm pretty desperate. I love this woman with everything in my soul.


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## blazer prophet (Jun 1, 2019)

Casual Observer said:


> She knows all this. She says she's working on it. That change takes time. But change might also require recognizing that something has to be done at times, and that simply wanting to change and not following through can feel even worse to the other person.


For one to change, they must to have the desire to change. Then again, I cannot imagine what cancer has done to her, psychologically speaking. Perhaps she doesn't feel desired, I really don't know.

As you love her, all I can offer is patience. And be lovingly persistent. I wish I had better to offer.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

blazer prophet said:


> For one to change, they must to have the desire to change. Then again, I cannot imagine what cancer has done to her, psychologically speaking. Perhaps she doesn't feel desired, I really don't know.
> 
> As you love her, all I can offer is patience. And be lovingly persistent. I wish I had better to offer.


Without question the cancer(s) have left it's mark. Breast cancer three times. And without question, it hasn't changed my feelings for her at all; she knows that what she sees in the mirror isn't what I see. But truthfully she was this way before the cancer. She's also had barriatric surgery but because she can't be told what to do, she doesn't follow the suggestions for what she should be eating, and has largely undone the benefits over time. Long way of saying she doesn't have a desire for change because she doesn't like being told what to do. Consequences don't have meaning because she lives in the moment. She can't connect the dots to see that eating badly leads to gaining weight back. Well, actually, she can. She just can't anticipate it.

It's easy to think it's anhedonia, an inability to feel pleasure, but it's not. Because, in the moment, she does feel pleasure. And yes, at times, almost reluctantly.

Thank you for your kind words.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Right now I have a toothache because part of a crown broke off. I know I will feel better after seeing the dentist tomorrow; but, am I looking forward to it? No.

It's hard to look forward to something when you're in discomfort even when you know that 'something' will make you feel better.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Right now I have a toothache because part of a crown broke off. I know I will feel better after seeing the dentist tomorrow; but, am I looking forward to it? No.
> 
> It's hard to look forward to something when you're in discomfort even when you know that 'something' will make you feel better.


I get that (although I do actually look forward to seeing the dentist to get rid of pain; my view on that changed prior to my first root canal... the difference between the pain prior to getting the root canal and the root canal itself was like comparing a mosquito bike to the worst-headache-ever).

But it's not all about painful stuff I'm helping with. Feeling better after someone gets to all those hard-to-reach places for you in the shower doesn't involve pain. For the most part, sex doesn't involve pain, certainly not oral leading to an o. 

Inevitably the best way to wreck something really nice for her is to let her know too far ahead of time that you'll be doing something really nice. The lack of pleasant anticipation almost makes it a negative when it happens. Anything in the future becomes risky. I learned that our vacations have to be really spur of the moment. It amazes me that people plan big vacations months, sometimes years, in advance. For me, for us, I know it's going to be sometime in November or early December, but the absolute max warning she can have is about 3 weeks. Even that's a bit much but it's hard to pull off an overseas trip in much less time than that.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Talking something to death has been known to diminish the joy of anticipation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Are your talks with her about this issue as long as your posts are? Because if so there is your answer lol. I love 6, and even I wouldn't be looking forward to enjoying it after those novels. I am being a bit facetious, but if you are over thinking and banging on this with her this much, she doesn't have a chance to anticipate anything.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Are your talks with her about this issue as long as your posts are? Because if so there is your answer lol. I love 6, and even I wouldn't be looking forward to enjoying it after those novels. I am being a bit facetious, but if you are over thinking and banging on this with her this much, she doesn't have a chance to anticipate anything.


I try to go as long as possible without bringing anything up at all. On the one hand, it sounds like setting her up for failure. On the other, you're right, if somebody doesn't want to change, talking about it too much doesn't help. That's why I brought up the possibility of taking some time away from each other. 

My original post was quite wordy. I didn't want to get things out in bits & pieces. I tried to keep my replies on-point. Thanks-


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Talking something to death has been known to diminish the joy of anticipation.


Agreed. And sometimes guilty. But I don't think that has much to do with backrubs and working on her arms' lymph nodes. Things I have to almost force her to do, because she will feel a whole lot better for it. I never talk about it beforehand. Yet she could go without, for who knows how long, maybe months, and feel miserable, and not ask or expect.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

@Casual Observer

It's the Prozac. It can make you not give a ****, get upset, or happy about anything. Total flatline. I quit Prozac because of the flatline "blahs". I haven't had that experience with Welbutrin so I still take it.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Prozac for depression??--have y'all tried Welbutrin alone? 

I'm wondering if somehow her paralysis goes back to her family of origin? Anticipation of good things becomes too risky, because of ??? the pain of disappointment. amount of effort involved, need for perfection?

Clarify again what you need, each and every time you need it--repeat to her (like teaching a child good manners) after a rub, You say to her: "Thanks husband for the rub, I feel so much better, I appreciate you." Wait for her to parrot back.
or
"Thanks, Casual Observer, for your thoughtfulness." Wait for parrot back.
or
"Thanks CO for planning the trip. Lets work together on further plans." Wait for parrot back.
Once she gets the hang of it, reward her!!

I don't see separation as solving this problem--maybe MC? It's like she has an emotional empty spot that needs work.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Does she know, specifically, that you would like her to tell you she's looking forward to something and she still doesn't do that? Does she say why? Is it because she doesn't want to lie when she really isn't looking forward to it? She completely forgets about it until you do it? She's resentful toward you about other things and doesn't desire to make you feel good?

Also, why is it important to you that she look forward to things? It sounds like she is grateful when you do nice things for her. Is getting her to do anything like pulling teeth? Or do you have something where you specifically want "anticipation" from her? (It's not something I'd ever thought about.) Does she actively un-anticipate and drag her feet when you're trying to plan nice things? (That would kill the mood.)

And with her "not liking to do what other people tell her to do" -- does she openly say "I don't eat well because I'm not going to let the Dr. tell me what to do?" Or does she think the Dr. is wrong? I thought most people who didn't eat well did that because they REALLY craved the unhealthy food and had lifelong habits of eating that stuff. 

It doesn't make sense that she would have all these health issues and deliberately disobey the Drs. suggestions simply because they weren't her idea.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Around 5-6 years ago my doctor tried me on a low dose of Prozac. I couldn't feel anything, either. Happy, sad, love, hate, desire, anticipation, pleasure.. all were gone and my world was constant grey. I could become physically aroused and orgasm, but couldn't actually enjoy it. It was just a thing that happened to my body. I stopped taking it and demanded a meds change.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

That's a typical side effect of Prozac for many. She may be okay with that (some don't care) but at least ask her if she's willing to try something else.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @Casual Observer
> 
> It's the Prozac. It can make you not give a ****, get upset, or happy about anything. Total flatline. I quit Prozac because of the flatline "blahs". I haven't had that experience with Welbutrin so I still take it.


Yes, definitely seeing this, and yet she can still get quite sad and cry a lot.



sunsetmist said:


> Prozac for depression??--have y'all tried Welbutrin alone?
> 
> I'm wondering if somehow her paralysis goes back to her family of origin? Anticipation of good things becomes too risky, because of ??? the pain of disappointment. amount of effort involved, need for perfection?
> 
> ...


She sees her therapist next week, and I'm going to see if she's willing to bring up the prozac and lack of anticipation issue. Yes, I've worked on the parroting thing but it's an area that has to be tread upon very lightly because she doesn't like being told what to do, even in a kind suggestion that something might be worth considering.


MJJEAN said:


> Around 5-6 years ago my doctor tried me on a low dose of Prozac. I couldn't feel anything, either. Happy, sad, love, hate, desire, anticipation, pleasure.. all were gone and my world was constant grey. I could become physically aroused and orgasm, but couldn't actually enjoy it. It was just a thing that happened to my body. I stopped taking it and demanded a meds change.


Sounds very familiar!


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Does she know, specifically, that you would like her to tell you she's looking forward to something and she still doesn't do that? Does she say why? Is it because she doesn't want to lie when she really isn't looking forward to it? She completely forgets about it until you do it? She's resentful toward you about other things and doesn't desire to make you feel good? *Truth is always complicated. She knows how simple it would be, how little effort it would take, to make me feel better. Just a mid-day text saying she's looking forward to her back rub tonight. She's connected the dots; she knows what it takes to make me feel better (emotionally), and she knows how much worse she feels (physically) if she doesn't get a back rub and have her arm worked on. There's definitely a control issue; she wants to do her own thing. But it gets really off-putting when she doesn't even see where joining me in watering the (few) plants would be nice. *
> 
> Also, why is it important to you that she look forward to things? It sounds like she is grateful when you do nice things for her. Is getting her to do anything like pulling teeth? Or do you have something where you specifically want "anticipation" from her? (It's not something I'd ever thought about.) Does she actively un-anticipate and drag her feet when you're trying to plan nice things? (That would kill the mood.) *A little bit of each. For me, anticipation is a big thing. Nice to look forward to something as you go through your workday. It's hard to believe I'm unusual in that regard. And it's a total buzz kill that your nearly-life-long partner can't see thing similarly. And yes, getting her to do anything is sometimes like pulling hens' teeth. She can agree to do something, but on her own terms, her own timetable, and she doesn't let you know what that timetable is. But it's not now.*
> 
> ...


*Welcome to my world. *


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> *Welcome to my world. *


I'm glad I didn't get a one-way ticket to your world, LOL. Honestly, she sounds like a recalcitrant 12 year old with oppositional defiance disorder.

It actually makes me angry that she knows how simple it would be to make you feel good but she's too stubborn to do it. 

I've known some people who were very invested in being "unhappy" and "victims." They would *rather *be miserable than happy. It's like they thought life was a competition for a martyr metal. Well, at least she is willing to acknowledge it and thank you when you do make her feel better. 

But it definitely seems like some kind of cruel control thing that she withholds what she knows you want when it sounds like you are very loving to her. 

My ex had a really bad back. When we first dated I'd rub it all the time. But then all the sudden, 1) I couldn't use lotion because it might make it break out and then 2) I couldn't do it at all because it might make it worse! (Seriously?) We couldn't go anywhere or do anything because he was in pain all the time and we couldn't even be loving at home because of it! 

Now I'm divorced and have a BF and he LOVES it when I rub his back, his feet, his hands, his ...whatever! Now that he knows I love doing it he'll tell me how much he is looking forward to it all the time and how much it helps him.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> I'm glad I didn't get a one-way ticket to your world, LOL. Honestly, she sounds like a recalcitrant 12 year old with oppositional defiance disorder.
> 
> It actually makes me angry that she knows how simple it would be to make you feel good but she's too stubborn to do it.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's intentional that she knows how simple it would be to make me happy(er) and doesn't. There's just a total disconnect in her mind and/or when she thinks about it, instead of it being something nice, it becomes something she's "supposed" to do. And she doesn't like things she's "supposed" to do. 

We had quite a row over this about a month ago. I pointed out how, if she made me happy(er) it made for an environment in which she would be happy(er). She got it... for a couple days. Then goes back to how things were. So it has to be brought up over, and over, and over. And then she gets mad because we're talking about the same thing over, and over, and over. 

The only thing I've been able to work on that has improved things is gradually changing our night-time ritual. Getting to bed earlier, having more time for stuff like the back rubs, neck rubs, shower, and basically, very slowly, seeing it become part of a ritual *which, strange as it may seem, is very different from being told what to do.* Maybe not so strange. It's certainly been a huge modification in my own lifestyle; I used to be a night owl, and now I'm heading to be as early as 10pm. 

Glad your BF loves the intimacy! My W loves it when I rub her feet, saying it feels like she's walking on air. And yet she'll most often say she doesn't need her feet rubbed. So perhaps there is also some of the victim mode she wants to play with. 

Truthfully, we weren't getting anywhere until I told her that about 8 months ago I was thinking there was no future. I didn't want to dangle a threat like that over her, but I had run out of options. She has to realize that she is making choices to be the way she is towards me, and those choices have consequences. My preference is to grow old together, very old together, and be known as that couple where, when one passed, the other went about a month later.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Casual Observer said:


> Long way of saying she doesn't have a desire for change because she doesn't like being told what to do. Consequences don't have meaning because she lives in the moment. She can't connect the dots to see that eating badly leads to gaining weight back. Well, actually, she can.[/B] She just can't anticipate it.
> 
> It's easy to think it's anhedonia, an inability to feel pleasure, but it's not. Because, in the moment, she does feel pleasure. And yes, at times, almost reluctantly.
> 
> Thank you for your kind words.


I think... you think. 
I think you are over thinking this...with her.

She sounds depressed. 
She was depressed, now is 'suppressed' by anti-anxiety drugs.
She is flat-line thinking. 

Anhedonia is a core clinical feature of depression.

Stop labeling her, libeling her and just keep rubbing dry her sore points.
And keep rubbing her salacious wet points.

She eats often because its feels good, this shows anticipation. 
She overeats because she has flat-lined given up.
Yes.

And kiss the ground and give clear thanks. 
That it is not you suffering in this manner, with you in the fog banks.

A person suffering from major depression needs continual reminders that they should be grateful to be alive.

The rub is:
Keep it up, zip your lip.





[THM]- THRD


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> I think... you think.
> I think you are over thinking this...with her.
> 
> She sounds depressed.
> ...


You've described the past 10 years of my life. Until a few months ago, doing exactly as you suggest. No discussion, just kind of pretended there wasn't an issue, let her be her own thing, self-destructing in silence while I praised her and basically worshipped the ground she walked on, never questioning things. Until it became me suffering in the fog banks, as you say. Never thought I'd be seeing a therapist myself, but there it is. 

We didn't get where we are today, without a past. Somehow I finally came to a breaking point, perhaps a very late mid-life crisis? I guess you're arguing that's unfair of me, unfair to let my change in attitude & feelings be known to her. That doesn't seem quite right to me. But I followed your script for at least 10 years, and it did help her live in her own separate world, where I'd have to be very cautious about what was said to her, or be careful about environments in which she might say something tone-deaf to others and not understand why they didn't react positively. The Prozac may have helped with depression but made her much more isolated/insulated.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> I'm glad I didn't get a one-way ticket to your world, LOL. Honestly, she sounds like a recalcitrant 12 year old with oppositional defiance disorder.
> 
> It actually makes me angry that she knows how simple it would be to make you feel good but she's too stubborn to do it.
> 
> ...


Dear..

I gave you a like because I agree with much of what you wrote.
Much, not all.

On back pain...
Oh, had that, done that. Had three operations on it with one spinal fusion.

Without a back, you are done.

Done standing, done doing anything!

Luckily. Lucky?

I badgered a surgeon to fix it up. Few doctors are willing to help with this problem.

Why? 

Lawsuits. Even if they win their case, their lawyer needs to be paid. The doctor now has a black mark on their record. Their malpractice insurance goes from high to OMG!

For them to even think about fixing it, before operating on it, you have to jump through worthless hoops, do inane exercises and therapy...

For a crushed disk, in my case!

Another disk was pinched.

So, yes the back wipes you out. Putting cream on it was whining on his part. He likely could not perform well in bed, could not perform well......in anything.

I get it. I forced myself to romp. I was not going to let any damn thing keep me away from that.
Nope.

But, I get it. He became a pain, due to his pain. 

To get rid of your pain, you had to leave him in alone in hanging traction. For all his infractions.

My back has been now been good for 34 years. In days yore, this Martian would have been a wheel chaired cripple and a cantankerous old grouch.

That is...If I allowed myself to live, to persevere.

Pain, chronic pain ruins the best of us in life.

Just Sayin'





[THM]- THRD


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