# desperately need a change in our sex life



## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Hallelujah!!!

I seem to be on the path of recovery from the EA... Last evening was with TOM and....

...no we didnt actually go all the way, just a lot of heavy petting...

ofcourse i felt acute guilt, which however, was quelled by the fact that i did not enjoy the act... all the while i kept thinking of my H and how great it is with him (whenever once a blue moon it does happen, that is) and it just didnt feel the same with TOM... and i have kinda come to realisation that it probably is not going to be as good with ANYONE else... i kept remembering my H's body, his skin, his hands, his smell, the way he felt and they way i felt with him... ummmm...

so now what???

i am still lonely and depraved... and an EA just is not a feasible answer to the situation anymore... i am still in the exact same situation as some of the other members here - Sasha, Yut, Blanca...

night after night i crave for any sexual contact when we go to bed... but there is NO action whatsoever... earlier he used to make excuses... even that has now stopped... now its like an unwritten rule - 'no point asking, cos its not happening', so i dont even try... also the fact that he just lies there like a dead log or snaps back at me has induced such fear that i dont even dare to initiate...

many times in the morning i see his erection thru his clothes and yearn to touch him, to take him in my mouth, to devour him, to... whatever... but i just turn myself away and distract...

I wonder how many of you out there have responded to and have been responded to by your respective spouses in a positive manner after a loving 'talk' etc...

QUOTE

*Millania007*
Have you tried the "when I have sex with you it makes me bond more with you" approach? 
My husband was getting discouraged because he always had to initiate sex, I would NEVER turn him down though but he had "the talk" with me and made me feel that he was no longer feeling desired ................ Well his loving approach really helped.....

UNQUOTE


with me, NOTHING seems to work... i have had 'the talk' in various forms and manner, many times he's agreed with me and promised to make changes and bring things to normal... but nothing changes... nor does he responds to my requests to see a professional... 

so any suggestions on what can i do now would be gratefully welcomed... 

P.S: am 33 and have had no sex before marriage... and now after marriage was so looking forward to a great sex life but living in such disappoitment and acute need...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I've gone through all of your posts, and gone over and over all you've written and I can only see one way out of your troubles. I know you will not like this a whole lot but the solution is simple: end your affair. Completely. That includes never contacting the Other Man ever again. 

I know that sounds simplistic, and I also expect some objections - one main one being that it is your husband's fault that you are having an affair - and that the same problem will be sitting there when you get home.

Regarding the idea that it is your husband's fault - that's completely wrong. You made the deliberate choice to turn to another man, it was a decision you made - when you could have easily made any of a dozen other choices - you could have just shut up an lived with your woes (not a happy thought). You could have simply divorced your husband. You could have talked to him about the issues (I understand you claim you have.) Regardless, instead, you chose to cheat, this was not something that you have no control over - it's not like gravity - you fall over a cliff and you have no choice but to move downwards. In your situation, you deliberately chose the actions. 

Regarding the fact that the problems are still there - quite so. But until you end the affair, you do not have the tools you need to address the problem. An analogy would be if you were falling down, commode hugging drunk, and someone wanted you to do an 8 hour shift at a cash register. You couldn't do the job until you sobered up. 

So get over the affair first, work on getting through the withdrawal and other issues, and then you will be in a place to address your troubles with your husband. Until the affair is over, there is no way to tell what arguments you are using to justify the affair, and which ones actually reflect reality.

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but in your current state of mind (wanting to continue the path you are on - blaming everything on your husband, having affairs, etc.,) the only possible solution is to divorce your husband. You have no other alternative. If that's what you want, feel free to go that direction. But I can't help you at all in that case. 

Your husband is certainly involved in all this mess - but you are on the wrong road, going in the wrong direction, and it can't but end up in failure and pain. There is hope - as long as you drop the cheating and begin to assume responsibility for your part in this mess - but only when you do your part. Unfortunately.

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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

You were incorrect in assuming that i would raise any objections to what you were gonna say... if you'll notice in all of my posts, alongside the fact that i said i found solace in someone else cos my husband is never there, i've also always said that no matter what, i am NOT justified in any way in cheating my husband...

So there, i do agree with you that ending the affair is the solution... And i am actively taking steps towards that... And KNOW FOR SURE that i will get completely over it soon...

But like i said in this very post, where does that still leave me???

Divorce is not something i weish to contemplate until i've left no stone unturned... I WANT to make it work, BUT am failing at everything...

Just day before, after a very long time, we had a small chat... where he blamed me and the family for his behaviour... when i asked him how was i wrong in feeling upset and being unhappy cos he was never around and he didnt give time or attention or care or sex or communication (none of the normal marriage stuff), he said, he agreed that he's wrong in all of that and needs to improve.

But thats about it... He's agreed to the same thing hundreds of times in the past 4 years and HAVENT improved a bit... just empty words WITHOUT being followed up by actions... He's like an alcoholic, who when made to undertsnad in the night agrees to his folly and wakes up next morning to go back to his drinking...

I dont want an affair. I want my husband. But he's going from bad to worse. Now he's starting to show bad attitude - a superior than thou kind.. even with his mother... its terrible... 

He's constantly on the phone, laptop, or outdoors... never sits and talks... doesnt care much about the baby am carrying... if any of us at home are hurt or found crying, he just snaps saying - not again and walks away... but he's very pal-ly and chatty with his friends and colleagues... he's always laughing and happy when talking to others, while we at home wait on the sidelines for some attention from him...

I am always home on time from work. Help mother in law with the house work, we eat dinner and go to sleep... thats our life... he doesnt even bother to inform us he'll be late coming home, why, where he'll be going, how late will he come... just appears at the doorstep at 2, 3, 4, 6 in the morning...

I dont falsely CLAIM, but i state the truth when i said i have tried talking to him - SEVERAL TIMES - in various forms... the latest being 2 nights ago like i mentioned...

But he just makes such false promises, uses his words so loosely, NEVER follows thru on what he's agreed to do...

I dont want an affair, i dont want a divorce, i want my husband and i want the marriage to work... Now how do i go about???


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

I'm really glad you replied - I was worried I took too long to respond to your post.



> So there, i do agree with you that ending the affair is the solution... And i am actively taking steps towards that... And KNOW FOR SURE that i will get completely over it soon...
> 
> But like i said in this very post, where does that still leave me???
> 
> Divorce is not something i weish to contemplate until i've left no stone unturned... I WANT to make it work, BUT am failing at everything...


Lot said above. First thing - it's easy to end an affair ('We can no longer see each other. Goodbye" It's a lot harder to get over it. So your first priority is to end it, as soon as possible (now would be good) and then set yourself in for some withdrawals. Give yourself a little time to experience sadness, anger, etc.

And when that's over, you can then face your next challenge: understanding and communicating with your husband.

Here's the issue: "...But like i said in this very post, where does that still leave me?..." 

You will be in the same place you are now, except without the affair clouding your judgment. Also keep in mind that your _husband_ is also in the same place - he has the same feelings about you, the same impressions of your marriage that he had earlier.



> He's agreed to the same thing hundreds of times in the past 4 years and HAVENT improved a bit... just empty words WITHOUT being followed up by actions... He's like an alcoholic, who when made to undertsnad in the night agrees to his folly and wakes up next morning to go back to his drinking...


This is entirely possible - and it could be that he has _no idea_ where to start - but as I pointed out earlier - until the affair is a thing of the past, and you have worked through the loss you'll feel from ending it, you won't be able to get to any of this.

One thing you can do right now is go back over the past few months to the point where all this began. And I'd like you to be honest - what part did you play - at that time - for the loss of interest in intimacy for you. I'm pretty much aware of his part.

I say that because discounting either a medical problem or an affair on his part, a man is not likely to abandon intimacy with his wife. Sexual fulfillment is usually high in a man's list of emotional needs, and it takes a lot to cause that interest to leave. Again, however there is little use in speculating on this at all until you've had a little time to leave the affair. I brought it up to give you some new means of examining this issue.

Please consider what I've said - and what others will point out. There is a lot of hope for you - but for the time being its going to take some intense self examination before we can turn to finding ways to get through your husband's thick skull..... 

Seem's like there's 2 thick skulls to get through here  

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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Will quote below my response to affaircare's post in one of my other posts... probably that will answer some of your concerns about the affair (which really is not an integral part in my life and was too superficial by the virtue of it being only 2 weeks old and my not having gone too deeper into it due to guilt out of my loyalties towards the H)....

QUOTE

Re: Why do all wayward spouses seem to read from the same exact script? 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Affaircare 
I have to agree. *sigh*

I'm just curious. What have YOU done to change? Are you a loving, supportive, encouraging haven for him to come home to? Are you a quiet, gentle, loving soul? Are you his friend and companion, enjoying him for the man and person he IS? Or do you nag him non-stop about every imperfection and constantly harass him for sex? 

We have stated to you SEVERAL times that YOU need to make or else there wont be a marriage... you responds with - yeah but my affair is almost over some day soon and it's all his fault anyway...[/I]

Any of this sounding familiar? 


Yes, it sounds very familiar 

Especially cos, i say that to myself many a times...

Yes, i have read all the links that have been referred to me and to others... before i came onto this forum, and from the beginning of the marriage, i researched the net for stuff on being a good wife (despite knowing what a good wife is, i just probably needed some encouragement or motivation given the circumstances at home)... one of the articles that fell in agreement with and LOVED and tried following with all sincerity and integrity was - What Every Wife Needs to Know | Bible.org - Largest Bible Study Site

I do feel that if my husband were to give me the love and attention i needed, i would not have strayed... And yet, i have never justified my affair as being correct...

I would also, like to repeat for emphasis, that BECAUSE i felt terrible about indulging in cheating ONLY COS MY HUSBAND IS NEVER AROUND FOR ME, the thingie lasted all of 2 weeks... Post 7th April, i've been spending cutting ties. And i am doing so successfully. No withdrawal symptoms for me cos, the guilt had not let me go any deeper into the relationship anyway...

Yes post 7th i did think in my mind (each time i was upset with the H) that wish i could just continue enjoying TOM's attention, but did nothing to actually indulge...

Anyway, coming back to what I DID for the marriage or how may have contributed to H's behaviour....

1. In the sex regard, In the beginning i did try to confront him a few times about what could possibly be wrong in that area... Thought i should also initiate and did, but he just snapped at me or turned the other side etc... So seeing no response from him and only irritation, i gave up on it and always waited for him to initiate if he felt like (which was once or twice a month since after the 2nd month of marriage)... Many times i felt like paying him in his own coin by rejecting him, but i never did and always loving responded to his advances and complimented him and encouraged him in words and deed... But NOTHING HAS CHANGED SO FAR... As recently as on 02.02.2010 he sent me a text msg saying - i will bring the sex life to normal... But he is yet to act on his text... And i am still waiting...

All my anguish that has been poured out in this forum hardly reaches him at home...

2. Yes, initially i nagged him for being so indifferent and uncaring... then i realised its not helping... i researched what i could possibly do... found the above quoted article... implemented it in my behaviour... But could barely maintain it for a month or two without any encouragement or change in behaviour from his end...

3. There were issues with his mother before marriage (who's staying with us)... she hated me even before she had met me... he and me had arguments over this before marriage... but after marriage i realised there's going to be no help from him in this area so i took the matters in my hands and developed a relationship with her, which in her own words - she has no problems with me and feels and tells others that she's got a daughter-in-law just the kind she wanted... given that, i will be lying if i denied that we still hand adjustment problems and had our own issues off and on... i tried handling all of them by myself but once a while i did go to him complaining about her... he would listen to me and say i know what is what and i am with you... so dont worry... his just saying that sufficed for me... until after a period of time when i would complain to him again after frustration had been sufficiently piled up...

But even that area is mostly sorted out by now... I have adjusted to MIL's way of things and more often than not we have no problems anymore...

4. While i was still trying to be 'the good wife' i found out about his addiction to porn and masturbation (in December 2009 Also when i found out about the pregnancy)... I was hurt that he was addicted to porn and did not desire me... I confronted, he point blank denied it at first... Later on further probing conceded to it... Said he wont do it again... But he did... I was depressed and anxious... He wont talk, he wont change... So i was back to being the upset and nagging sort for a while until he started coming home late, drinking, hurting everyone of us at home, being utterly indifferent to the pregnancy etc...

Then, i realised no matter how much i kick and scream, nothing is changing, so i just gave him his space.. stopped questioning, demanding, piling on (thats February 2010) and its been going on this way till date...

5. And no matter what he does or i do (the affair), i cant seem to fall out of love with him... I am still upset with him, but when he comes home and i see his face, i just feel terrible for not making his life any easier and i make some loving moves (not sexual)... However, get no response in return... I still run my hand thru his hair, kiss his forehead, hold him, tell him i love him (and mean it) and provide whatever support i can by being there whenever he turns to me...

thats about it that i can manage... two days ago when we had a little chat after a long time, he blamed me and his mother for his behaviour... that we are perpetually dissatisfied and complaining no matter how much progress he makes on the financial/lifestyle side and he cant handle it... I told him i dont know how to be happy without him... how to be happy with the house he's bought without him to live in with... how to enjoy the money he earns without him to spend it with... he conceded that its an area he is surely lacking and needs to improve...

after that he's gone silent... and i've gone to silently continuing with our lives as it were... 


UNQUOTE


P.S: He was low on sex since before mariage.. i thought it must be just the 'wait until marriage' thingie and thought all would be well post marriage... from the time of our honeymoon I sensed it was not normal... he preferred to stay outdoors (when i have heard men generally prefer not to leave the indoors  )

For the first 2 months of marriage it was atleast maybe twice a week... then it went down to once or twice a month and has been that way ever since...

So its not like he lost his desire somewhere along the way...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

The first thing I want to say is that I can empathize with how frustrated you feel at how things are in your life. I can understand why you'd feel depressed, angry, disappointed, irritated - any number of emotions. SO please don't misunderstand me if I don't focus on those feelings - to the exclusion of other (and more important) issues. I noticed that you mentioned the article 'What Every Wife Needs To Know" - and that you believed (at least at the time) that it was 'on the money' and something you needed to work at. You said you tried it with all sincerity and integrity.

When did you find this article?

When did you stop using its advice? 

That is, how long did that last?

While you SAY you are not justifying your affair (as being correct) - you _are_ justifying it (as necessary, perhaps?). Moreover, regardless of your denials, you are placing the responsibility and blame for the affair directly on your husband. [Note - this is why I tried to say 'give yourself some time after the affair before starting on the marriage'] For example:



> ...I do feel that if my husband were to give me the love and attention i needed, i would not have strayed... And yet, i have never justified my affair as being correct...


Here, you claim that the reason you strayed was because your husband is not giving you the love and attention you need. Why stray? Why not leave him? Why not simply give up on getting those needs filled? (Not saying those are good things - but they are also actions you could have taken.) He did not make you find another man. He simply did not provide something you felt you need. YOU went out and found that other guy. On your own.

Moreover, I don't think ANYONE has accused you of justifying the affair as being correct! That's something you are adding on your own. I for one, beleive you justify the affair on the grounds that you wanted something you weren't getting, so you took steps on your own to get it, regardless of moral concerns.

But that's not the whole reason I don't think you understand your part in the issues your marriage faces. Here, you write something else:



> ...I would also, like to repeat for emphasis, that BECAUSE i felt terrible about indulging in cheating ONLY COS MY HUSBAND IS NEVER AROUND FOR ME, the thingie lasted all of 2 weeks...


You say that you feel terrible about cheating _only_ because your husband is never around for you. Would you have felt better about it if he was ALWAYS around for you? Why do you point out that you feel terrible only because he did something. Why would you not feel terrible simply for the sole fact that you _cheated?_ Why do you need to ALWAYS move the subject to what your husband is doing? We'll get to that soon enough! Right now, the focus should be on what YOU did. You cheated. You lied. That's an issue in itself, because it was a rational choice you made out of a whole string of choices that lay in a basket in front of you. You chose THIS one, and not another one! Take full responsibility for that - without resorting to any justifying excuses. And then move on, because there's a lot of work to do.

Remember the story of Adam and Eve? God asked them why they ate that fruit - and they all did the same thing..."Well...SHE gave it to me..." and "Well, the serpent said..." None of them took responsibility - they tried to shift blame one space to the left...

What does "...Post 7th April, i've been spending cutting ties. And i am doing so successfully..."mean? How many ties do you have to cut? Wasn't it enough to do it once? As in "On April 7th I cut ties..."? When you speak in generalities like this, I get the impression you are 'tapering off' your relationship with this other guy - that it isn't completely over...

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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> In the sex regard, In the beginning i did try to confront him a few times about what could possibly be wrong in that area...


No! This was NOT 'in the beginning' - this was 'in the middle' (or at least 'after the trouble began.') You _should_ only confront someone when a problem already exists. I HOPE that's what you did! Otherwise, it wouldn't be very hard to point out EXACTLY what the trouble in your marriage is: you create troubles and then get angry at your husband - to which he responds by withdrawing...



> Thought i should also initiate and did, but he just snapped at me or turned the other side etc... So seeing no response from him and only irritation, i gave up on it and always waited for him to initiate if he felt like (which was once or twice a month since after the 2nd month of marriage)...


In the above quote, you point out that you have sex once or twice a month (after the 2nd month). Yet in other places, you write "...night after night i crave for any sexual contact when we go to bed... but there is NO action whatsoever..." Well, which is it? _NO action, or once or twice a month_? It's one or the other. And the answer to your problem changes depending on that answer! For example, you write elsewhere: "For the first 2 months of marriage it was at least maybe twice a week... then it went down to once or twice a month and has been that way ever since...So its not like he lost his desire somewhere along the way..."

So, would it be more honest to say 'he doesn't have sex with me as often as I want' rather than 'he will never have sex with me'? You mentioned that he sent a text message to you stating 'I will bring the sex life to normal...'

What is normal? I assume that since he wrote this, he either agrees that the frequency is not 'normal' or that you are pressuring him to accept what you want as 'normal.' I'm not making any judgments right now - all I am doing is pointing out the fact that unless you make exact, honest, and real statements rather than exaggerated or minimized, or generalized ones, you will not be able to get to any work in your marriage.



> Yes, initially i nagged him for being so indifferent and uncaring... then i realised its not helping... i researched what i could possibly do... found the above quoted article... implemented it in my behaviour... But could barely maintain it for a month or two without any encouragement or change in behaviour from his end...


I'm familiar with that article (and others like it) and I can say this: nowhere in that article (or the source from which it is drawn) make any conditional statements - it does not say, 'do this only if your husband does 'that') It simply says 'do this.' You accepted the article as a TOOL to get your husband to do something you wanted - and when that didn't work out, you dropped that idea and moved on to something else. Again, I am not discounting any emotions you may experience at the things you go through - I am pointing out how thoughts and actions reveal a lot more than what you feel.



> There were issues with his mother before marriage (who's staying with us)... she hated me even before she had met me... he and me had arguments over this before marriage... but after marriage i realised there's going to be no help from him in this area so i took the matters in my hands and developed a relationship with her, which in her own words - she has no problems with me and feels and tells others that she's got a daughter-in-law just the kind she wanted... given that, i will be lying if i denied that we still hand adjustment problems and had our own issues off and on... i tried handling all of them by myself but once a while i did go to him complaining about her... he would listen to me and say i know what is what and i am with you... so dont worry... his just saying that sufficed for me... until after a period of time when i would complain to him again after frustration had been sufficiently piled up...


I believe (contrary to what you say - "...But even that area is mostly sorted out by now... I have adjusted to MIL's way of things and more often than not we have no problems anymore...") _that THIS is probably the MAJORITY of the trouble you are having in your marriage. _And it is most likely not from your side at all - you may well have built up a tolerable relationship with his mother. However: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

I have one question here: when did his mom 'move in' with you?

Also one other very important quote:



> ... two days ago when we had a little chat after a long time, he blamed me and his mother for his behaviour... that we are perpetually dissatisfied and complaining no matter how much progress he makes on the financial/lifestyle side and he cant handle it... I told him i dont know how to be happy without him... how to be happy with the house he's bought without him to live in with... how to enjoy the money he earns without him to spend it with... he conceded that its an area he is surely lacking and needs to improve...
> 
> after that he's gone silent... and i've gone to silently continuing with our lives as it were...


Now while I do not accept the idea that 'someone else' is to blame for anyone else's behavior, I'd like to point out that it looks very much to me that you are not hearing what your husband is saying. My guess is that he tends to withdraw rather than 'rock the boat' - which means that you have to pay close attention when he does speak. He blamed you and his mother for his behavior - that you are perpetually dissatisfied and complaining...

Why would he say this? Is life peaceful at home? Or is there a lot of 'gentle persuading' - or 'correcting' his behavior, etc? Look at it (for a moment) from his viewpoint. He lives in a house with two women who nag, cajole, and complain about him. So what does he do? Withdraws. Works extra hours. Drinks to make things easier to handle. On top of things, his mother lives in the house, and you want to have sex with him - while she is sitting a few feet away! Is any of this good behavior? Of course not! But is it understandable? I'd say so. It needs to change - but the entire environment needs to change. 

All you are doing is staying on course, resenting the fact that he does not do what you command, does not do what you _will_ him to do - complaining nagging, yelling - who knows what other behaviors? And you want HIM to act like NONE of this is happening.

Solution Step One: Stop the affair, and tell him about it.

Solution Step Two: Find a new place for his mom to live.



> He was low on sex since before mariage.. i thought it must be just the 'wait until marriage' thingie and thought all would be well post marriage... from the time of our honeymoon I sensed it was not normal... he preferred to stay outdoors (when i have heard men generally prefer not to leave the indoors)


I have no idea what you mean by 'indoors vs. outdoors' - I know men who love to sit at their computers, and others who would rather be in the mountains or on the sea all the time. But I do know this: people differ. Sex drives differ. And you keep using the word 'normal' without clarification. Do you mean 'on average'? Or do you mean 'Every thing I want or do is 'the norm' by which humanity is measured'?

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## MsLady (Dec 1, 2008)

Dude, his mom lives there?

I would never have sex with anyone either if my mom were living with me all the time and IN the house whenever sex was possible. Moms are total libido killers! Shudder to even think about it.

1. End the affair.
2. Get his mom out of the house.
3. Go to couple's counseling.

Don't ask him to "change." That's vague and he can promise he'll "change" up the wazzoo but who even knows what that really means. Ask him to go to counseling with you. And ask him to give you both a trial period (months) without his mother living in the house. These are things that are measurable and implementable.

Once in counseling, you can hash out all the issues. If there you realize that he's just happy having sex twice per month, living with his momma and not being bothered by your emotional needs, then there's your answer: he likes it like this. You can't get people to live a life they don't want, so you'd have to leave him. On the other hand, you may find all sorts of solutions to your problems.

Also, I agree with the above that there is no "normal" (within reason). But that's irrelevant. If you are this unhappy, that's how you feel and you may need a better matched partner.


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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

To Tanelornpete and others who might read this one, I apologize for the length of the post. But thank you in advance for taking the efforts to read thru and even respond to it… 



Tanelornpete said:


> The first thing I want to say is that I can empathize with how frustrated you feel at how things are in your life. I can understand why you'd feel depressed, angry, disappointed, irritated - any number of emotions. SO please don't misunderstand me if I don't focus on those feelings - to the exclusion of other (and more important) issues. I noticed that you mentioned the article 'What Every Wife Needs To Know" - and that you believed (at least at the time) that it was 'on the money' and something you needed to work at. You said you tried it with all sincerity and integrity.
> 
> When did you find this article?
> 
> ...


Firstly, let me thank u for empathizing with my feelings about how things are in life… However, I do notice that you seem to be taking everything I say out of the context and make me look like the vamp that I really am not… Just cos I enjoyed some attention from someone for 2 weeks (cos it just my way came in my vulnerable moments, NOT LIKE I WAS ACTIVELY THINKING OR SEEKING TO STRAY) and then came to my senses soon enough AND acted on the good sense, does not minimise the effect of the circumstances around in terms of the disappointment and hurt. I have proactively given up on TOM (even before the forum members could advise me that) cos I KNOW an affair is wrong and unjustified and NOT COS anything in my life changed for good…

So please do give me the credit for choosing to do what’s right, even when its most difficult to implement given the temptation that’s always around (TOM and I work in the same place)… 

About the article, like I said I worked on its advice for about 2 months… this was just before I found out about his addiction… after that, I just lost track of what I was doing cos, I was depressed and unhappy all the time (especially since husband chose to continue his ways despite the promise to do otherwise and our marriage kept lacking the intimacy and joy that comes from husband and wife being together in loving AND sexual ways…) Its not like I actively ‘plotted’ to stop ‘using the article’s advice’ cos the husband failed to fulfil his part of the bargain… I just fell apart…

In this regard, would appreciate your noting the fact that even while our marriage was already in trouble,
1. I proactively sought to change myself in the hope to change our marital situation
2. Sought marriage counselling in the 3rd marriage of marriage
3. Did leave him (after the discovery of his addiction, when I couldn’t handle the depression, I left him, until he came back promising to change and I thought this time we could work on the marriage and make it alright, and so went back)
4. I would surely have divorced him, except I was already pregnant and everyone in the family and friends advised I should not cos it would be unfair to the baby. Again I agreed with their advice and thought working on the marriage would be a better option… this was Jan 2010…

It was not until April 2010 when the fling happened, by then I was losing hope and was very lonely and got carried away despite knowing I was wrong… But I could resist the temptation of enjoying the attention of TOM only so much and so carried on with it for the whole of 2 weeks, when my guilt got the better of me and I decided no matter what, I cannot be doing this and gave up…





Tanelornpete said:


> Here, you claim that the reason you strayed was because your husband is not giving you the love and attention you need. Why stray? Why not leave him? Why not simply give up on getting those needs filled? (Not saying those are good things - but they are also actions you could have taken.) He did not make you find another man. He simply did not provide something you felt you need. YOU went out and found that other guy. On your own.



Hopefully by now you know that I did choose to take a whole gamut of other actions and did not PURSUE an affair – DID NOT GO OUT TO FIND THE OTHER GUY… 




Tanelornpete said:


> Moreover, I don't think ANYONE has accused you of justifying the affair as being correct! That's something you are adding on your own. I for one, beleive you justify the affair on the grounds that you wanted something you weren't getting, so you took steps on your own to get it, regardless of moral concerns.



Out of context… I DID NOT TAKE PROACTIVE STEPS, it happened, and I was weak to resist it cos I was lonely, but found the strength to end it cos I was wrong…




Tanelornpete said:


> You say that you feel terrible about cheating _only_ because your husband is never around for you. Would you have felt better about it if he was ALWAYS around for you? Why do you point out that you feel terrible only because he did something. Why would you not feel terrible simply for the sole fact that you _cheated?_ Why do you need to ALWAYS move the subject to what your husband is doing?



Misunderstood… I did not say that I “feel terrible about cheating only because your husband is never around for you”, I said I felt terrible about cheating on the grounds that the husband is never around… that was no reason to cheat, infact there can never be a good enough reason to cheat… like u said there are other actions that can be chosen over cheating… so although u did misunderstand what I typed, my reason for feeling terrible was for the sole fact that I chose the wrong path…

Though I still feel that what happened was cause I was acutely lonely (still am), but I do take responsibility for my action and have moved on…




Tanelornpete said:


> What does "...Post 7th April, i've been spending cutting ties. And i am doing so successfully..."mean? How many ties do you have to cut? Wasn't it enough to do it once? As in "On April 7th I cut ties..."? When you speak in generalities like this, I get the impression you are 'tapering off' your relationship with this other guy - that it isn't completely over...



Since we work at the same place, surely it becomes, impossible to not see his face or bump into each other during office hours… But apart from that, I have cut all emotional and physical ties and even applied for a change of work place… Now until that comes thru, I can only do so much – am not dependent on him for attention or love anymore… I am free from inside and he knows it so in clear terms and is fully cooperative…


----------



## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> No! This was NOT 'in the beginning' - this was 'in the middle' (or at least 'after the trouble began.') You _should_ only confront someone when a problem already exists. I HOPE that's what you did! Otherwise, it wouldn't be very hard to point out EXACTLY what the trouble in your marriage is: you create troubles and then get angry at your husband - to which he responds by withdrawing...



Choosing to deliberately misunderstand or misquote???? When I said in the beginning, I mean in the beginning and that’s even before the marriage… when I confronted him before marriage, he used to say, I want before marriage everything that will happen after marriage… So surely I had to believe that its just the ‘wait until after marriage thingie’… Which I discovered AFTER marriage was not so…

So after marriage I suppose 2 months is a reasonable time to gauge if things will ever get normal… Not like I did not express my disappointment even during these 2 months… Every night he preferred to play cards or other indoor games with his mother and sister, instead of going to bed to be with me… or he preferred to plan late night out so he could avoid the bed… I questioned why he did so and his answer always was – ‘its all in your head’ (until after the 2nd month the frequency went further down to once or twice a month, surely that’s not just in my head)…

In the 3rd month of marriage I sought marriage counselling cos of all the issues that I was unable to handle – his lack of time, attention, lack of sex in our life, his constant occupation with his blackberry, his laptop, the MIL issues etc… at the end of the sessions he agreed with the counsellor’s advice and promised to make amends…





Tanelornpete said:


> In the above quote, you point out that you have sex once or twice a month (after the 2nd month). Yet in other places, you write "...night after night i crave for any sexual contact when we go to bed... but there is NO action whatsoever..." Well, which is it? _NO action, or once or twice a month_? It's one or the other. And the answer to your problem changes depending on that answer!


I would suppose once or twice a month would be counted as ‘not normal’ for a newly married couple who have never had sex before in life…..
And given his addiction to porn and masturbation and the fact that I have always told him I am available whenever he wants and still his choosing his addiction over the natural marital act is surely ‘not normal’ according to me…

The fact that he finds ingenious ways to stay out of the bedroom, sleep before or after me etc all so he could avoid intimacy is ‘not normal’ I think…

So out of 31 days a month, I am craving for intimacy and sexual contact for ‘night after night’ for the rest 29 days…




Tanelornpete said:


> What is normal? I assume that since he wrote this, he either agrees that the frequency is not 'normal' or that you are pressuring him to accept what you want as 'normal.' I'm not making any judgments right now - all I am doing is pointing out the fact that unless you make exact, honest, and real statements rather than exaggerated or minimized, or generalized ones, you will not be able to get to any work in your marriage.



Obviously the frequency is not normal coupled with the fact that he masturbates almost everyday… 

Besides, its not just the sexual act I am referring to… when I say sex it means everything from loving eye/physical contacts to hugs, kisses, and personal communication… to quote from the site divorcebusting.com (I found something there that EXACTLY represents my feelings/opinion in the matter expressed in exact words that I could not manage expressing. Points in bold and italics is applicable to our case) :

*The Sex-Starved Marriage Quiz*

Do you find yourself:

•	*Going to bed earlier or later than your spouse just to avoid the possibility s/he might get amorous?*

•	_*Lying in bed at night, careful not to stir for fear that s/he might start touching you?*_ 
•	*Being sexual out of guilt rather than feeling desirous?* 
•	Arguing with your spouse about sex frequently. 
•	*Blaming each other.*
Do you find yourself thinking or saying:

•	*"By the end of the day, I'm just too tired and have no interest in sex."*

•	_*"If you had to work as hard as me, maybe you'd understand why I have no interest in sex."*_ 
•	"How can we have sex? The kids are always around." 
•	_*"If you were nicer to me maybe I'd be interested." *_
•	"Why do you always have to touch me in a sexual way?" 
•	"If you weren't such a sex fanatic, I'd probably want more sex." 
•	"If you'd help more around the house, I'd want to be closer to you sexually." 
•	"I just don't feel turned on anymore." 
•	*"I have a lot on my mind right now. Sex is just not all that important to me."*

This lack of sex is more than just a lack of physical attention... It goes deep into a woman's heart. I think in a normal marriage, a couple can fight about anything, but then they can make love and soothe the bad feelings... sort of like a rebirth.. a forgiving ritual. But when you are deprived of even that, bitterness and resentment and desperation accumulate. I have a husband who is a good guy, great father, good provider, but I have no lover. I'm angry about the wasted years, the years I could have been loving, but spent agonizing about why I was being deprived. It's so much more than sex. It's feeling wanted, and sexy and desired by the man that you are committed to for life.

Contrary to what you might be thinking, saying a marriage is sex-starved tells you virtually nothing about how much or how little sex a couple is actually having. It's not just about sexless couples who have slept in separate bedrooms for years. In fact, it includes couples who, according to national surveys have an "average" amount of sex each month. It's not about numbers. Since, unlike vitamins, there are no recommended daily requirements to insure a healthy sex life, a sex-starved marriage is more about the fallout that occurs when one spouse is deeply unhappy with his/her sexual relationship and this unhappiness is ignored, minimized, or dismissed. The resulting disintegration of the relationship encapsulates the real meaning of a sex-starved marriage.

Sex is an extremely important part of marriage. When it's good, it offers couples opportunities to give and receive physical pleasure, to connect emotionally and spiritually. It builds closeness, intimacy and a sense of partnership. It defines their relationship as different from all others. In short, sex is a powerful tie that binds.

When people believe that their spouses aren't attracted to them, that their marriages or their feelings aren't important, or that an affair is brewing, they feel rejected, suspicious, hurt, resentful, and unloved. They start doubting themselves and their abilities to satisfy their spouses. They often feel deeply depressed about the void in their marriages.

When they try to explain these feelings to their partners, their explanations are often flatly dismissed. "You don't have the need to feel closer to me, you're just a sex maniac," or "If you would have to go to work in the real world rather than be home with the kids, you would understand why I'm so tired all the time," or "If you weren't so controlling, you would just accept that I'm not as physical as you are and you would leave me alone,!" or "It's only sex, what's the big deal?"

However, to someone like Tom- the partner yearning for a better sexual relationship- being lovers is a big deal. It's much more than mere physical pleasure. It's connection, intimacy, closeness, and affection. It's about feeling attractive, feeling masculine/feminine, and feeling whole as a person. It's about being in love. It's about a feeling of oneness.

But since people with low sexual desire aren't hungering for a sexual connection, they're not overly empathetic to their spouses' feelings and do little to make significant changes in their relationships.

Eventually, feelings of rejection become increasingly difficult to manage. Sadness turns to anger. Those yearning for more physical closeness vacillate between being distant and unpleasant. And although these behaviors are merely symptoms of underlying hurt, people with low sexual desire don't perceive their spouses' behavior quite so benevolently. Empathy is in short supply. Arguments about sex, or the lack of it, become the norm. Blame-slinging disagreements add to the already icy distance between spouses. Then, like a runaway train, it's not long before their bitterness and animosity collide head-on with every other aspect of their relationship. Nothing seems right anymore.




Tanelornpete said:


> I'm familiar with that article (and others like it) and I can say this: nowhere in that article (or the source from which it is drawn) make any conditional statements - it does not say, 'do this only if your husband does 'that') It simply says 'do this.' You accepted the article as a TOOL to get your husband to do something you wanted - and when that didn't work out, you dropped that idea and moved on to something else.



Misinterpreting and assumptuous… I very clearly read in the article and agreed to myself that being the good wife comes without conditions… and for the length of time I did work on it, I was happy just being good to him and hoping that the ‘marital situation’ would improve someday… but it just fell apart when I discovered his addiction and just could not deal with my depression and pregnancy and felt like I had nowhere to go and life seemed doomed… even during this phase there were times I tried working on the article’s advice, but I was so disillusioned and depressed that I kept failing to keep up the good work and then i had left him…




Tanelornpete said:


> Again, I am not discounting any emotions you may experience at the things you go through - I am pointing out how thoughts and actions reveal a lot more than what you feel.



Ofcourse u r discounting all my feelings and good intentions and actions… but am willing to face your criticism, if it will help my marriage and so am responding to every point that you have raised…





Tanelornpete said:


> I believe (contrary to what you say - "...But even that area is mostly sorted out by now... I have adjusted to MIL's way of things and more often than not we have no problems anymore...") _that THIS is probably the MAJORITY of the trouble you are having in your marriage. _And it is most likely not from your side at all - you may well have built up a tolerable relationship with his mother. However: Genesis 2:24 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."
> 
> I have one question here: when did his mom 'move in' with you?



She didn’t move in, she was always there.. In our country children still live with their parents… and I had accepted that she will be always around… I had issues with the way she trampled me before marriage (even without having met me or known me)… But its one area I have managed to restore to normalcy after marriage (and due credit to her that she responded to my efforts too)… So there are no more issues between us anymore, except the occasional difference of opinion…




Tanelornpete said:


> He blamed you and his mother for his behavior - that you are perpetually dissatisfied and complaining...
> 
> Why would he say this? Is life peaceful at home? Or is there a lot of 'gentle persuading' - or 'correcting' his behavior, etc? Look at it (for a moment) from his viewpoint. He lives in a house with two women who nag, cajole, and complain about him. So what does he do? Withdraws. Works extra hours. Drinks to make things easier to handle. On top of things, his mother lives in the house, and you want to have sex with him - while she is sitting a few feet away! Is any of this good behavior? Of course not! But is it understandable? I'd say so. It needs to change - but the entire environment needs to change.



I have realised many times over that he is the only male living with us females and have looked at things from his point of view and given him his space… But if u r telling me that we should not ‘communicate’ our opinion to him regarding his behaviour than its asking a little too much… even your/his boss at work tells him when he is not satisfied with his performance at work… we are his family and we have all rights to tell him when we are unhappy…

you can call it nagging, cajoling, complaining, whatever… besides blaming me and his mother is just a ruse for him to indulge in his ways… from the beginning of the marriage he’s lived life his own way… if he wanted to live like a single, without taking any responsibility of the marriage or family, he shouldn’t have married in the first place…

For him too, there were always two paths – to talk and resolve, to love and receive in return, to understand and be understood, to not indulge in vices etc – but he always chose the opposite…

Please do not try to justify his waywardness as his helplessness 




Tanelornpete said:


> All you are doing is staying on course, resenting the fact that he does not do what you command, does not do what you _will_ him to do - complaining nagging, yelling - who knows what other behaviors? And you want HIM to act like NONE of this is happening.
> 
> Solution Step One: Stop the affair, and tell him about it.


Have stopped. Wont tell him about it. Knowing him as well as i do (from past exp, i know his response will be having an affair of his own)...



Tanelornpete said:


> Solution Step Two: Find a new place for his mom to live.


Will never happen… he chose to break off with me before marriage than to talk to his mother about what possible issue she may have for treating me the way she was… Plus she is old and alone… cant possibly let her live solitary when her son is alive… It doesn’t work that way here… we will always be taking care of her…

Oh and btw, his mother was away for a month in December last year, but he did not take that opportunity to improve our communication, or spending of time with each other or on sex… even during that entire month we went out only once, he stayed at home only one day / came home on time, had sex only once… Normal? I don’t think so…




Tanelornpete said:


> I have no idea what you mean by 'indoors vs. outdoors' - I know men who love to sit at their computers, and others who would rather be in the mountains or on the sea all the time. But I do know this: people differ. Sex drives differ. And you keep using the word 'normal' without clarification. Do you mean 'on average'? Or do you mean 'Every thing I want or do is 'the norm' by which humanity is measured'?



I was referring to our honeymoon… I have heard people on honeymoon cannot get enough of each other… with us all he wanted was be out of the hotel room and avoid sex… we would be out thru the day site-seeing, movie watching, just generally going around the place, which would have been alright if he were not doing it all to avoid sex… then at night he would be too tired to even stay up and talk… 

Would appreciate if you would keep the sarcasm away in your posts… 

Normal - I would love if he woke me up in the middle of the night when he felt horny and get his release, I would love if we made love sometimes in the morning or afternoon or at time other than the scheduled once or twice in the night.. if he did it out of desire and not as a way to shut me up… if he did an impromptu move just cos we were alone, and he was amorous… I would love if he touched, gave loving kisses, ran his hand over me, took my clothes off and his, indulged in foreplay… but all he does is a bit of hard kissing above the breast area and then straight to the act…

Am I still generalised and unreasonable??


----------



## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

The reason I address your posts the way I do is because you are in combative mode, which is a difficult (if not impossible) mode in which to meaningfully communicate. That means that I have to spend time disarming and moving through defenses to get to the real person (you!)



> Choosing to deliberately misunderstand or misquote???? When I said in the beginning, I mean in the beginning and that’s even before the marriage… when I confronted him before marriage, he used to say, I want before marriage everything that will happen after marriage… So surely I had to believe that its just the ‘wait until after marriage thingie’… Which I discovered AFTER marriage was not so…


I did not choose to deliberately misunderstand. You did't supply that definition when you first wrote. How was I to know that was what you meant? YOUR quote was a deliberate deflection of my original question - something that I see you doing a lot!

My original question was: "...One thing you can do right now is go back over the past few months to the point where all this began. And I'd like you to be honest - _what part did you play - at that time - for the loss of interest in intimacy for you...._" 

To which you answered 'In the beginning I confronted him.' Given my specific question (what happened _before the problem began_) your answer is completely unrelated - 'Well, before we got married I confronted him..." as if I asked you WHEN you confronted him! I didn't...

I write things very specifically. My question is "go back to when this all began". I asked you when the problem began, not when you confronted him about it. You completely avoided this question altogether, and then used your straw man to argue an unrelated point with me. Fortunately, you answered the question inadvertently. You discovered - BEFORE YOU WERE MARRIED - that he had a lower sex drive than you. And you 'confronted' him about that. 

Hence, if you had actually answered my question, you would have said: "He had a low sex drive from the very first" - which would have given me the information I needed - I had to know if some trauma, or problem occurred which caused his sex drive to diminish.

So....misunderstand or misquote? I was working on the assumption that you were actually answering my question, so no, neither.



> So after marriage I suppose 2 months is a reasonable time to gauge if things will ever get normal…


Again, you need to ask yourself 'what is normal'? Are you talking about an average as determined by comparing universal results? Are you using a standard that you set up? How do you know that 2 - 3 times a month is NOT normal for your husband? Because he masturbates?

The two are not completely related. He does not desire sexual relations with you for some reason. I am positive that there is MUCH more to this story than you are willing to divulge. I am positive that the reason he chooses porn, or fantasy over you has a specific reason - and that YOU are involved in this in some way. 

You seem to be arguing that you are absolutely guilt free in all of this (in other words, you argue that you have been the perfect wife) and that he is 100% to blame for this. 



> Not like I did not express my disappointment even during these 2 months…


No, I'm quite positive you let him know EXACTLY how you felt, at every chance. ("...A nagging wife is as annoying as the constant dripping on a rainy day...." Proverbs 27:15) That technique is CERTAIN to get positive action out of him.



> In the 3rd month of marriage I sought marriage counselling cos of all the issues that I was unable to handle – his lack of time, attention, lack of sex in our life, his constant occupation with his blackberry, his laptop, the MIL issues etc… at the end of the sessions he agreed with the counsellor’s advice and promised to make amends…


So in all of this marriage counseling, did he bring up any issues HE had with you? Did you agree with the counselor's advice and promise to make amends? Or are you placing 100% of the problems in your marriage on your husband - and then acting surprised that he keeps withdrawing even farther?

Reading between your lines, I sense that your husband is very immature, and hates confrontation, to the extent that he will agree to anything to stop a conflict. These are things that he will have to deal with to improve your marriage. But NONE of that gives you any right to any wrong doing on your part. Nor does it excuse any of your actions. 

He is not here. You are. I am positive that there are things that he NEEDS _desperately_ to work on - things I'd be all over him for - with a 2x4 if necessary.

But keep in mind this verse: "...You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye...." (Matt 7:5) The solution to your marriage cannot happen unless BOTH of you fix your part. 



> I would suppose once or twice a month would be counted as ‘not normal’ for a newly married couple who have never had sex before in life…...


Perhaps. That is, if you went by statistical averages. But this does not make it 'normal' - it makes it average. 



> And given his addiction to porn and masturbation and the fact that I have always told him I am available whenever he wants and still his choosing his addiction over the natural marital act is surely ‘not normal’ according to me… The fact that he finds ingenious ways to stay out of the bedroom, sleep before or after me etc all so he could avoid intimacy is ‘not normal’ I think…


No - that is not 'normal' - it is instead an _indicator_ of an existing problem in your marriage (Of which you are a part.) For some reason this stuff is more desirable to him than you. I wonder what could give him such an impression? The answer to that is a large part of the solution to your problems.



> So out of 31 days a month, I am craving for intimacy and sexual contact for ‘night after night’ for the rest 29 days…


So for you, normal is sex at least once a day. Is that 'normal' for everyone? Again, keep in mind that you are defining normal in _some_ way. On top of that, you are equivocating on two meanings of the term 'normal' - using it to mean both frequency and things done. 



> Obviously the frequency is not normal coupled with the fact that he masturbates almost everyday…


You neglect one thing: you mention that he only wants sex with you once or twice a month - but masturbates frequently. Why is that? Now I am prone to believe that one can become addicted to masturbation (it becomes a habit) - and habits can be changed. So there is work for him to be doing (new habit.) But there is also another reason why men masturbate - it's safer for them. No, not medically (well, ok that is true as well) - but because they may want sexual release - but things in their personal life inhibit intimacy with another person.



> Besides, its not just the sexual act I am referring to… when I say sex it means everything from loving eye/physical contacts to hugs, kisses, and personal communication… to quote from the site divorcebusting.com (I found something there that EXACTLY represents my feelings/opinion in the matter expressed in exact words that I could not manage expressing.


I am really glad you brought this up! You have some needs that he, as your husband, 'should' be filling! And you can even list them!!! 

So....give me the list of HIS needs that you are not filling!



> This lack of sex is more than just a lack of physical attention... It goes deep into a woman's heart.


Yes it is. And your husband has a definite responsibility there. None of my points negate nor contradict this. What we are trying to work on is HOW do you get through to him, and from my experience, this cannot happen unless you understand what is going on in the background that has caused the troubles. Otherwise, you are just forcing him to act, creating more resentment, and future problems.



> I think in a normal marriage, a couple can fight about anything, but then they can make love and soothe the bad feelings... sort of like a rebirth. a forgiving ritual. But when you are deprived of even that, bitterness and resentment and desperation accumulate.


No. When a couple fights (which should never happen) it is an indication of an issue that is unresolved. What should happen instead is an _argument_ - by that I mean a conversation where both people present their views and work toward a mutually agreed upon solution. A fight occurs when you have left an issue unresolved so long that your emotions overrule your ability to discuss. In other words, a fight happens because one or both parties in the marriage have neglected to do the right thing in the first place and instead waited till anger got the best of them. 



> I have a husband who is a good guy, great father, good provider, but I have no lover. I'm angry about the wasted years, the years I could have been loving, but spent agonizing about why I was being deprived. It's so much more than sex. It's feeling wanted, and sexy and desired by the man that you are committed to for life.


Wasted years? Wait - how many have you been married? I was under the misconception that it had been only 1 or so...



> ...Contrary to what you might be thinking, saying a marriage is sex-starved tells you virtually nothing about how much or how little sex a couple is actually having. It's not just about sexless couples who have slept in separate bedrooms for years. In fact, it includes couples who, according to national surveys have an "average" amount of sex each month. It's not about numbers...


Actually, I am not the one bringing up frequency, nor 'norms' - you are. I understand what a lack of intimacy can do - and I also understand that it is a necessary part of marriage...



> When people believe that their spouses aren't attracted to them, that their marriages or their feelings aren't important, or that an affair is brewing, they feel rejected, suspicious, hurt, resentful, and unloved. They start doubting themselves and their abilities to satisfy their spouses. They often feel deeply depressed about the void in their marriages.


BINGO! And how _does_ your husband feel??? 



> ..."You don't have the need to feel closer to me, you're just a sex maniac," or "If you would have to go to work in the real world rather than be home with the kids, you would understand why I'm so tired all the time," or "If you weren't so controlling, you would just accept that I'm not as physical as you are and you would leave me alone,!" or "It's only sex, what's the big deal?"


Whenever someone makes statements like this, there is ALWAYS a hint of truth in them. You make many similar statements about your husband - and I can tell from your statements that there are areas where your husband must make vast steps to improve or lose you. But - _are you listening to him?_ You seem to dismiss his statements out of hand. Yes - I agree, your husband needs to grow up. But look carefully at what he is saying!!!



> But since people with low sexual desire aren't hungering for a sexual connection, they're not overly empathetic to their spouses' feelings and do little to make significant changes in their relationships.


No. This is a justification for anger, affairs, and whatever else you have hiding in there. People with low sexual desire simply get all they need out of less sex than those with higher desire. They can easily be very empathetic and caring - _they just don't require sex as often_. You are lumping ALL people with low sex drives into the same category as an unresponsive husband. 'Oh, well, he doesn't need sex as often as I do - therefore he is not empathetic, and will do little to make significant changes in their relationships... etc.' Not true. Flat out not true. How about earning more money as a significant change? How about doing more housework as a significant change?

Have you ever taken the Love Busters quiz - or the Emotional Needs quiz? Here's an ever more intense one: the Love Kindlers quiz.



> Ofcourse u r discounting all my feelings and good intentions and actions… but am willing to face your criticism, if it will help my marriage and so am responding to every point that you have raised…


No, I am _not_ discounting your feelings. If I were doing that, I would be telling you you aren't sad, depressed, lonely, etc. I have made NO SUCH claims. You emotions are yours. Nor am I discounting your intentions - I beleive that they are well meaning. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You can have all the good intentions you want - but if you use the wrong MEANS to achieve them, you fail as badly as if you had bad intentions. There is a right way and a wrong way to do pretty much everything, and whether you feel good doing it or not, whether you mean well or not, the action itself IS what I am concentrating on.

If I came across you stranded by the side of the road trying to push start your car, and all I did was 'empathize' with you - of how much use would I be? There are plenty of people on this thread who are here to feel with you. I am here to help your marriage succeed.



> I have realised many times over that he is the only male living with us females and have looked at things from his point of view and given him his space…


I have no idea if he wants space or not - or just wants some peace from 'helpful criticism' - that's something you can work out with him. 



> But if u r telling me that we should not ‘communicate’ our opinion to him regarding his behaviour than its asking a little too much… even your/his boss at work tells him when he is not satisfied with his performance at work… we are his family and we have all rights to tell him when we are unhappy…


That's EXACTLY what I am telling you. You should not 'communicate' your opinions to him. You should communicate your opinions to him. I am so glad you are honest enough to use the quotes! And yes, his boss, as his employer, has the right to critique his work (and fire him, if he wants.) But you are his spouse, not his owner. Communication is two way (and I do NOT mean you and his mother as those two). It is between two adults who should be discussing things and coming to an enthusiastic agreement. 

Suppose he and his spent all their time 'communicating' their opinion at you. Would YOU consider that loving, kind, or even helpful? Or would you simply retreat, get drunk, find a lover....etc...???



> you can call it nagging, cajoling, complaining, whatever…


'
I'm just amazed that you could consider these behaviors acceptable - and expect him to behave in some loving way toward you when that's your means of 'communication!'



> besides blaming me and his mother is just a ruse for him to indulge in his ways… from the beginning of the marriage he’s lived life his own way… if he wanted to live like a single, without taking any responsibility of the marriage or family, he shouldn’t have married in the first place…


I'll bet that at LEAST half of it is INDEED a ruse. I have no doubts about that. But even it is was ALL a ruse - this in NO WAY excuses you to 'nag, cajole, complain...' etc. No wrong behavior ever excuses another. As long as you 'nag, cajole, complain, whatever' you will NEVER get the husband you want or deserve. EVER.



> For him too, there were always two paths – to talk and resolve, to love and receive in return, to understand and be understood, to not indulge in vices etc – but he always chose the opposite…


Absolutely. But he is not here. You are. And you want to solve your marriage problems (so you say). Hence, you CANNOT use ANY method other than to talk and resolve, love and receive, underestimate and be understood, nor to indulge in vices - EITHER - and you are most certainly doing a LOT besides those things.



> Please do not try to justify his waywardness as his helplessness/


I never did. I'm not even sure what that means.

Regarding your affair:



> Have stopped. Wont tell him about it. Knowing him as well as i do (from past exp, i know his response will be having an affair of his own)...


Here is a pretty good indicator of the main problem you are having in your marriage (your part of it.):

You seem to be a _very_ controlling individual. And he responds by withdrawing and ignoring you. Most likely, from the very start, he knew this about you - and has been trying to stay as far away from your control as he humanly can. I also make two other guesses: One is that you manipulated him into marrying you (a commitment that he is regardless obliged to honor, by the way) and two: His mother is also a very controlling person. 

I'm a smart guy and I've considerable experience here. Please heed my words. I doubt that we need to go much farther into this issue right now at all: this is a problem. Until you learn how to stop being so controlling, you will not have a happy marriage. Or a happy life when this one self destructs.

He is to blame here too. He needs to stand up and be a man - but my guess is that he was taught from a very young age to be a 'good boy' and do whatever he was told - which translated into this particular marriage.

You won't tell him...because if you do....he will have an affair or two? And you can control this by simply lying to him? 



> Will never happen… he chose to break off with me before marriage than to talk to his mother about what possible issue she may have for treating me the way she was… Plus she is old and alone… cant possibly let her live solitary when her son is alive… It doesn’t work that way here… we will always be taking care of her…


HE will always be taking care of her. You may not be there! Regardless, he won't change unless you do. 

----------------
Now playing: Tab Benoit/Voice Of The Wetlands All-Stars - Lightning and Thunder
via FoxyTunes


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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

I cannot understand why you would call me as being in a combative/defensive mode when am willing to assume my share of responsibility in the marriage, accept my faults/mistakes and concede to amend them, realize and accept my wrongs are wrongs and have no justification etc…

If you think that the fact that I am only mentioning my husbands mistakes in my posts is what makes me that, then I must mention, who will mention all those things about the husband but me… By mentioning how he behaves, I was expecting a perspective on what I could do to change it… was surely not expecting a heap of criticism against me, nor being told that the cause of every discord is me and that the husband is a poor wronged party who is suffering as the henpecked one…

Which is not true, I assume, cos of the fact that I have several texts from him saying he feels lucky to have me, quoting the things he likes about me (one of things in his own words being a clean and forgiving heart), telling me how much he loves me and finds me very attractive and lusts me (this even when there was no action in bed)… Plus texts with him agreeing that there are lacunae on his part and all his promises that he will change things for the better… Each time he writes such things I believe him, I hope that THIS TIME he will mean it and implement what he says…

But they are always just words… I like to believe too that he has the ‘good intentions’ to make the change he promises… But, and you stole my words when u said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions… He ALWAYS expressed the need for him and his willingness to change… but again to quote you - _If I came across you stranded by the side of the road trying to push start your car, and all I did was 'empathize' with you - of how much use would I be?_

When I discovered the hundreds of porn videos in his laptop, he told me it was in his laptop since long before the marriage (I DID NOT CAUSE HIM TO PREFER PORN/MASTURBATION OVER ME)… while before the marriage when I had asked him to show me some porn cos I was curious how and what it is, he had lectured me as to how dirty it is and how he doesn’t like it etc (HE LIED ABOUT HIS ADDICTION SINCE THEN)… 

but I never doubted what he said, until December 2010, when I read somewhere that addiction to porn and masturbation kills normal desires to make out with a partner, and it struck me that MAYBE his lack of desire in our relationship is because he watches porn (it took me almost 3 years to realize that perhaps he’s into porn)… then I found these videos in his laptop… and then I looked back to all those times when he made excuses to use his laptop, his working on the laptop late into the nights and not using our room to work on (instead sit alone in the living room to work), making sure that he got lot of time alone at home even if it meant canceling on our ‘dates’… 

Despite finding the videos, he at first denied that he ever watched them and that they had just been lying un-watched in the laptop for years… but I couldn’t trust him anymore… and found the ‘modified date’ column against the videos showing recent dates… soon after I also found out newer videos downloaded (EVEN DURING OFFICE HOURS / ON HOLIDAYS WHEN HE WENT TO WORK QUOTING JOB EXIGENCIES)…

The fact that I felt there was some problem with his libido even before we were married and kept getting confirmation to that effect even after marriage, can be taken by you to be a fact that I have not caused a decreased desire in him… EVEN ON OUR HONEYMOON he acted weird, surely you wont say that I caused the weird behaviour by my nagging and other wrongs that I committed…

I will grant you that we argued, and fought and talked and reasoned on various issues in the marriage, and he ALWAYS agreed that he is lacking in that area and will improve…

On my part, he NEVER mention what problems he had with me… Even when his mother asked him, he was tongue-tied… So I lived on assumption that his problem with me will be with my nagging and complaining… Cos other than that I have always supported him in all his endeavours and encouraged him to do whatever made him happy in terms of his career and desires to grow higher in life…

I have always tried talking and reasoning about my issues with him… he agrees with me, promises to change… and never does… that’s when I lose my cool and patience and then the nagging starts… I know for a fact that that’s the only wrong on my part that has happened in our marriage apart from the recent episode with TOM.

Surely I don’t deserve so much apathy and distance for having complained about lack of him and a normalcy in our married life… And just cos I don’t pay him like his employer does, doesn’t make him more indebted to the employer and less responsible towards his family… I cant believe how you are justifying every wrong on his part as being a necessary evil (as a rightful response to my inequities!!!)

And everything you are telling me about introspection, taking responsibility for my actions, accepting my wrongs without justification etc etc etc, I already know and have implemented several times… but I am not able to sustain it, cos each time disappointment and hurt lapses me into the unwanted behaviour, until I pull myself back up… But surely this oscillation in my behaviour is not good for the marriage… I need lessons in being steadfast, not being blamed in return for my unhappiness…

The resons why I used the quotes to write the word communicate is precisely to stress that I communicated with him and not fought… But you seem so blinded by my ‘faults’ that you cannot see beyond fault-finding in every word I say or type…  And I always said communication is ‘two ways’ – him and me… he prefers to sweep issues under the carpet instead of talking… he prefers to go distant and silent instead of getting together to find a solution…

However, because i know he is inherently a good man, he is not cunning or manipulating, he is loving when he wants to be, and in hearts of heart he is a sincere and caring person… its precisely why I want to make it work with him.. I know that if we can just get beyond the issues and handle life situations in a matured, amicable manner, we could have a beautiful life… If I can, I would like to bring out that good in him, that I have gleaned at various occasions, however rare… And above all cos we love one another…



P.S: You misunderstood the quote from the article from divorcebusting.com as being written by me… The entire thing from the Title ‘The sex-starved Marriage Quiz’ to the last para that starts with ‘Eventually feelings of rejection…. Nothing seems right anymore’ are part of the same article…

I realise you are a smart guy and that’s why I had requested your inputs in the first place… But please don’t get too technical with words, cos I type as it comes to my mind, without wondering if you will interpret my words in ways other than how they are intended to mean...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I cannot understand why you would call me as being in a combative/defensive mode when am willing to assume my share of responsibility in the marriage, accept my faults/mistakes and concede to amend them, realize and accept my wrongs are wrongs and have no justification etc…
> 
> If you think that the fact that I am only mentioning my husbands mistakes in my posts is what makes me that, then I must mention, who will mention all those things about the husband but me… By mentioning how he behaves, I was expecting a perspective on what I could do to change it… was surely not expecting a heap of criticism against me, nor being told that the cause of every discord is me and that the husband is a poor wronged party who is suffering as the henpecked one…


I point out the defensiveness because every personal action you bring up is explained by 'well, HE did this....etc.' Not only that, but if I ask you specific questions, you deflect by answering something entirely other than what I asked. These are defensive actions. 

As for you needing to mention your husband's actions: you've already done that. And that's all you return to. 

I am a marriage coach - that is, I advise people on the best ways to solve troubles, I try to give effective tools and help you get back on track so that you can move on. I'm pretty good at it too. But I also have a strong BS detection system. 

There is SO much that you say between the lines that it is impossible (right now) to introduce the tools you need to get things on track. The reason is because I've seen this happen so many times. One spouse is absolutely certain that the other spouse is 100% to blame. Often, they will utter such phrases as "I am willing to assume my share of responsibility in the marriage, accept my faults/mistakes and concede to amend them, realize and accept my wrongs are wrongs and have no justification etc..." - but then show absolutely NO actions that show this is at all a true statement.

Moreover, I know you are an intelligent person. That means I know that you are using your words specifically and intentionally. You are not a fool, you aren't accidentally saying things. So I treat you as very intelligent and capable.

I believe that there is hope for your marriage. I believe that there is a lot of work your husband needs to do. I have many tools, or methods, by which you can address these issues. But I am not willing to get to those until I am certain they will be used simply to control him. 

I have NEVER once claimed that the cause of all discord in your marriage is you. THAT, m'lady, is a twisting of my words, a misinterpretation and exaggeration of anything I have said. And that statement, above pretty much anything else, is evidence that you are HIGHLY defensive, and, if I might add, quite prideful. 

Is your husband a 'poorly wronged party' who is suffering as the henpecked one? Is he 'poorly wronged'? Only if you approach the problems you see in your marriage in a disrespectful or improper way. Is he the henpecked one? Perhaps - would you say that YOU are the henpecked one? 



> Which is not true, I assume, cos of the fact that I have several texts from him...[snip]...But they are always just words… [snip]
> 
> This is quite true - and most likely because of two reasons: 1) it works, and 2) all he hears from you are 'just words' - that is, he hears only complaining.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Let me simplify this:
- Your husband has a marital obligation to satisfy you sexually - this is a core part of his vow to "love you". He has been breaching that vow despite your complaints for quite some time. 
- If you are doing things that turn him off, he is obligated to be specific about what those are and explain to you why they cause him problems - he is not doing that. 
- As his wife you ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS have right of first refusal in terms of sex. So before he masturbates - he is OBLIGATED to come and see if you want to connect first. His masturbation is a very real form of cheating. He is cheating with himself as the lover instead of you. That is A NO NO.

He cannot insist on fidelity from you, if he is consistently ignoring his sexual obligations - it really is that simple. 

I do think you should get a keylogger and find out what kind of porn he likes. Might be very educational. 

One last thing - he tricked you by promising better sex after marriage. That is just very wrong in every sense of the word.

Don't let ANYONE put responsibility for solving your sex life on you. HE is responsible for saying what he needs from you to have a satisfactory sex life. You cannot fix a problem that he won't talk about. And frankly you will go insane trying. 





married-infidel said:


> I cannot understand why you would call me as being in a combative/defensive mode when am willing to assume my share of responsibility in the marriage, accept my faults/mistakes and concede to amend them, realize and accept my wrongs are wrongs and have no justification etc…
> 
> If you think that the fact that I am only mentioning my husbands mistakes in my posts is what makes me that, then I must mention, who will mention all those things about the husband but me… By mentioning how he behaves, I was expecting a perspective on what I could do to change it… was surely not expecting a heap of criticism against me, nor being told that the cause of every discord is me and that the husband is a poor wronged party who is suffering as the henpecked one…
> 
> ...


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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Mem,


Thank you for your post... I do feel that if only he tells me what he finds erroneous in my ways, i would surely work on them... But he doesnt and i depend on my assumptions...

But like Tanelornpete says, there could be major problems from my end that need resolution before the husband could be worked on... But just accusing me of being defensive and manipulative aint gonna help, is it?? Instead of saying what according to him is the path i should be taking, Tan goes on and on about how i have messed up in the first place and how my husband is justified... 

Anyway, there's no way i can use a keylogger cos his laptop is not accessible to me anymore and if i ever (very very rare) see it lying somewhere, after the discovery of the videos, i am just too scared of touching his laptop for the fear of what else i might find...

Besides, what help will knowing what he watches be... even if he shares his fantasies with me, i am open to experimenting whatever he desires... but he NEVER does... whatever little we do is always routine... he doesnt even indulge in MY suggestions... even if i send him sexy text 'preparing' him for the night, he responds 'nicely' and then makes sure we dont get together in the night...

And maybe before marriage he DID genuinely mean that things will be alright after marriage, but perhaps he was just not able to make them alright as he THOUGHT he might be... i dont know...

*Exhale*

Tanelornpete,

I could not open the article that you've suggested reading...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MI,
This is not fixable. He won't tell you what you are "doing wrong" because you are not doing anything wrong. 

Trust me - if a man has desire - and the woman is doing some extreme stuff that harms his desire - he WILL TELL HER IMMEDIATELY 

He simply is not attracted to you. But do not be offended by that statement. I am going to guess that you can not find evidence of a prior girlfriend he DID have a lot of sex with. 

If you stay and try to fix your sex life - you will lose your mind. If you stay and accept he is sexually broken and find a lover - that could work. If you leave him - that is the cleanest solution of all.




married-infidel said:


> Mem,
> 
> 
> Thank you for your post... I do feel that if only he tells me what he finds erroneous in my ways, i would surely work on them... But he doesnt and i depend on my assumptions...
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> I could not open the article that you've suggested reading...


Darn. And it's a good article too! I had no trouble opening the link. Here's another shot at it...

To Mem:



> This is not fixable. He won't tell you what you are "doing wrong" because you are not doing anything wrong.


1) This IS fixable - you offer _three_ fixes at the end of your post! A) stay and try to fix your sex life, (and go crazy) B) stay and accept he is sexually broken and find a lover, C) leave him...

In fact, there even are more solutions than that. Regardless - why make a statement at the very beginning of a short post - and then turn around and contract yourself a few sentences later? Doesn't reveal a lot of careful thought! Which advice are we to take from you - there aren't any fixes - or there are fixes?

2) You claim Married_Infidel is not doing anything wrong. I beg to differ. NO one is perfect. We ALL can improve. Of course, you could instead be creating your own moral system - but no one is required to live by that, and the only person you can rightly judge by a personally manufactures system of morals is you yourself. But I think Married_Infidel would agree with me that there are no perfect people on the planet.



> Trust me - if a man has desire - and the woman is doing some extreme stuff that harms his desire - he WILL TELL HER IMMEDIATELY


Not true. This is essentially lumping all men together into a single collective: men are persons, and each differs. Some men do not want conflict at all, and will simply not say ANYTHING. Instead, the drink, view porn, etc. Some men are VERY vocal about what they want. Just as with women, men differ one from another. Making generalized comments like that could be defined as sexist.

Your statement, to reflect reality, would be 'Some men WILL TELL HER IMMEDIATELY'. Unfortunately, evidence shows that her husband is not among that crowd. He hides, withdraws, drinks, etc.



> He simply is not attracted to you. But do not be offended by that statement. I am going to guess that you can not find evidence of a prior girlfriend he DID have a lot of sex with.


This COULD be quite true. On the other hand, he may have simply chosen porn as his venue of sexual release - he may lack enough social skill to actually approach other women. 

But you could be quite accurate with your first statement. However, my experience is that men will generally will have sex with just about anything, if it is offered - unless something stronger than sexual desire over-rides that desire. 

Married_Infidel thinks I am trying to blame her for her husband's lack of activity. Actually, I'm trying to completely eliminate that fact - but to do so requires some soul searching on her part. 

Note: She wrote that she is going to lie to her husband to control his behavior (and yet you claim she is perfect!) - she 'won't' tell him about her affair because if she does, he 'will' have an affair with someone else.

The question that arises (and is coincident with your comment about his attraction to her) is *"Why is he willing to have sex with other women, but not her?"* What, in his mind, is causing him to avoid sexual contact with a woman who willingly offers herself to him. SOMETHING is not gelling here. _Something is missing from the equation._

----------------
Now playing: Ray Charles - What'd I Say (Parts 1&2)
via FoxyTunes


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

married-infidel said:


> ... But like Tanelornpete says, there could be major problems from my end that need resolution before the husband could be worked on... *But just accusing me of being defensive and manipulative aint gonna help, is it?? Instead of saying what according to him is the path i should be taking, Tan goes on and on about how i have messed up in the first place and how my husband is justified*...


And at least partially, therein is the problem, married-infidel. Let me give you an example. Let's imagine that your husband really is 100% the dastardly blame that you claim. Let's imagine that you have been a very good wife, kind, gentle and loving, creating a haven of safety and joy in his home, and submissively being a doormat while he runs rough shod all over you, drinking, leaving you all hours, refusing to have sex, won't say a kind word or hug or kiss, masturbating, going to strip clubs...shoot he even HITS you! Let's imagine all that. Okay? Imagining that life is that one sided and all the blame is his while you are utterly blameless? 

Even if that was 100% the truth, I could go on and on for DAYs about how it's HIS fault and HE'S to blame, and HE should be doing this, that and the other...and it would do no good. You know why?  He is not here. He is not the one here at this site seeking help. You ARE here. You are the one here at this site seeking help. So if I said he was a complete jerk and he should be on the moon swimming in cheese sucking your toes...HOW would that change or help anything? It wouldn't, because he is not here! 

So since you ARE here, Tanelorn began to get the facts straight first (and you had facts all heggity peggity and vague accusations here and there in unusual order or just unclear), and just from asking for those clarifications you responded defensively. THEN, since you are the one who is here and who is asking for help, Tanelorn looked at what you may possibly be doing to contribute to the situation -OR- what outside influences may be making it worse. For example, here in the USA, if a mother were living with a couple, it might be understandable for the child to feel uncomfy having uninhibited sex with their parent right in the other room. So he suggested that might be one thing that's contributing to the situation. 

See, usually in a case like this what happens is that one spouse does *A* and the other spouse pulls away... then the first spouse does *B* and the other spouse responds with MORE pulling away. And if you can figure out what the *A* and *B* are, it is conceivable that the first spouse might say "Oh! That makes you pull away? Well I'll work on that then." Especially since you are relatively newly married. Yet time and again when someone has even hinted that you may have some personal responsibility here...that in some way your choices might be contributing to making the matter worse...rather than being calm and giving some reasonable consideration to the possibility, and then saying, "Okay I see where this and this may apply and I'll work on those, but THAT really does not apply and here's why", YOU reply with deflection, defense, and blame toward the one talking to you. 

Thus, here's my thought. I don't honestly believe you want this fixed. As long as it's broken you can look at him, point fingers at him, blame him, and never ever have the responsibility to look at yourself. And no I'm not saying he is perfect OR justified. Let me make that perfectly clear: 

YOUR HUSBAND VOLUNTEERED TO MARRY YOU AND IN SO DOING, MADE A COVENANT WITH YOU THAT INVOLVED SEXUAL FULFILLMENT. HE VOLUNTARILY OFFERED HIS BODY AS YOURS FOR YOU TWO TO BECOME ONE AND YOU VOLUNTARILY OFFERED YOUR BODY AS HIS FOR YOU TWO TO BECOME ONE. As a married man, he has a larger obligation to meet your sexual need or at least negotiate a frequency that works for the both of you. 

But, the lower libido person rarely if ever doesn't have sex because they don't like sex or because they're tired. It is almost always, very, VERY often a power struggle--and quite often it's the only thing in the relationship that they feel they have any power over. So they deny so that they can have the power over sex in their relationship. And you know why people feel like they have to power in their relationship? It's because they feel controlled. And you know how you get someone to release control/power in a relationship? Let me give you a clue: it's NOT by complaining, nagging, cajoling, or by getting his mother to agree with you and join in, or by getting everyone on a forum to agree with you and say "Oh poor married-infidel", or by having a thousand people say "You should be doing this..." That is FORCE and he is showing you that you can not force him to do what he deep down in his heart does not want to do. The way to get someone to release control/power in a relationship is when they feel SAFE to do so and like they have some respect and say in the relationship. 

Soooo...nope sorry. Tanelorn didn't go on and on about how you messed up in the first place or say your hubby was justified. In fact I believe he said that your husband's wrong behavior does not mean you can do wrong too! 

Anyway, good luck. Hope you find your thousand people who say your husband is a louse and validate your behavior rather than having you face personal responsibility. You won't be getting that here or from me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

To clarify: When I say it is not fixable I mean that I have seen very very few situations where the husband is starving the wife of sex and actively resists:
1. Telling her why and
2. Working constructively and honestly with her to solve the problem

Generally what I have observed/read is that the husband does everything he can to avoid an honest conversation about desire. And the main tactics used are:
- Deny there is a problem - accuse the other person of having an over active libido
- Attack the other person - you are too controlling, too mean, too critical etc.
- Use reverse logic - if you would only stop pressuring me - we would have more sex - but then no pressure leads to no change
- Avoid conversations about sex, change the subject, start a fight about something

So I will reiterate that I believe the odds on the OP achieving a healthy sexual relationship with her H are very, very low. 

If it were me I would go frontal on this. Either tell me what the situation is or I am gone. But if the situation is "I simply lack attraction for you" that almost guarantees a divorce so most guys will do just about anything to avoid that. 





Tanelornpete said:


> Darn. And it's a good article too! I had no trouble opening the link. Here's another shot at it...
> 
> To Mem:
> 
> ...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

In this, I couldn't agree more. But I am more than willing to do EVERYTHING possible to give Married_Infidel EVERY chance to save her marriage.

In this instance, given the culture in which they live (it isn't America, where pretty much everything is centered on complete self-worship) this is one where family is important. Which means that there are different inherent problems...

But I argue for marriage (the only side I take is the marriage) until it no longer exists, by a finalized divorce decree. I believe that there is almost ALWAYS hope.


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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Mem,

As far as i know, he hasnt had a girlfriend or slept around before... Like i said we both have not had sexual relations before our marriage...

We've been married 11 months and were together before marriage for 3 1/2 years, during which time we never went all the way...

Before marriage, from his behaviour or lack of it in this area, i could feel that there was some problem in the area... Infact, i was uncomfortable asking him, but before marriage i wanted to know that he liked porn or masturbated, as a sign that he had healthy sexual desire... But i could never get it out of him...

Later after marriage when we started having issues and much later when i realised he was addicted to it, i wished he wasnt addicted... hmmmh... two different feelings on the same topic... 

Anyway, like i said he chooses not to talk about it, or seek help or do anything to change the situation... Plus since the initial period of confrontation and fights after the discovery, i have stopped bringing up the topic or questioning him or arguing, it works well for him... we just go to sleep every night in the same bed like a platonic couple and he's quite happy holding me or putting his arm around me, making sure he avoids touching every 'controversial' part... 

Anyway....

Tanelornpete,

This time the article opened... will read it after i type this... 

And i am all with you when you say 'the only side i take is the marriage'... i too want marriage and a good one... Am also in agreement with you when you said no one is perfect... oh me, i am far from being that...

Also, i wish to clarify to your following quote, 



Tanelornpete said:


> The question that arises (and is coincident with your comment about his attraction to her) is *"Why is he willing to have sex with other women, but not her?"* What, in his mind, is causing him to avoid sexual contact with a woman who willingly offers herself to him. SOMETHING is not gelling here. _Something is missing from the equation._



as far as my knowledge goes, he has not slept with (before or after our marriage) nor expressed it even in moments of anger that he wishes to sleep with other women... the problem in our marriage is not other living people, its porn videos and masturbation (i think)...


And when you say 'SAVE MY MARRIAGE', i assume you are somewhere assuming that there's a chance of breaking up...

Lets start from a point where we work assuming 'breaking up/divorce' is not an option... A temporary separation (few days/weeks) perhaps, if required, but nothing more... I want to be with my husband and i do love him, no matter where we stand right now...

I have always said, and will repeat, that i am willing to work on my part... and like it was pointed out, i am here to seek help and not him... so the working would be on my part i realise... however, all the info provided about the husband was to give perspective on the situation (since i am here, it will be obviously MY perspective)...

What would your input be, apart from all the criticism and blame, given the fact that i want to 'BETTER MY MARRIAGE' and its only me we will be working on...


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Re my quote:

_The question that arises (and is coincident with your comment about his attraction to her) is "Why is he willing to have sex with other women, but not her?" What, in his mind, is causing him to avoid sexual contact with a woman who willingly offers herself to him. SOMETHING is not gelling here. Something is missing from the equation._​


> as far as my knowledge goes, he has not slept with (before or after our marriage) nor expressed it even in moments of anger that he wishes to sleep with other women... the problem in our marriage is not other living people, its porn videos and masturbation (i think)...


I was pretty sure he hadn't, which was why I wondered why you used the objection that he 'would have an affair' if you told him about yours!

For reference, you wrote (with what seems to be clarity and conviction)



> Have stopped. Wont tell him about it. Knowing him as well as i do (from past exp, i know his response will be having an affair of his own)...


If he HASN'T slept with others before, and has never expressed the desire (see your above quote) - and the problem is not with other living people, then what is the_ past experience_ in which you 'know' that he will have an affair of his own? If he is not willing to get close enough to ANY woman to have sex, what is the point of saying he will? 

That is either an irrelevant excuse used to justify lying to your husband, or else there is more you aren't telling. Regardless, lying is not the way to build a strong marriage. Do you appreciate your husband lying to you? What on EARTH makes you think he would accept it from you? Or, do you have such a low opinion of him that his perceptions of you lying are totally unimportant to you. 

And - if that is the case - don't you think he already senses this lack of respect - something that he could be using to justify his withdrawal from you?

Openness and honesty are absolutely necessary for a marriage to work. It will fail without them. When you build a house of brick, you use mortar to hold it together. Truth is the mortar in the house of your marriage. Get rid of the mortar, and the place will fall apart. You should know this from experience: how much of your house has been damaged by your husband's refusals to be honest?

If you want your marriage to work, you need to tell him you had an affair - and why. Chances are that this could be the kick in the behind he needs to start turning around to work on the marriage.



> And when you say 'SAVE MY MARRIAGE', i assume you are somewhere assuming that there's a chance of breaking up...
> 
> Lets start from a point where we work assuming 'breaking up/divorce' is not an option... A temporary separation (few days/weeks) perhaps, if required, but nothing more... I want to be with my husband and i do love him, no matter where we stand right now...


A) There is always the possibility of a marriage ending. That's just a fact when dealing with an imperfect world. For all you know, your husband could surprise you one day and divorce you - something that I am guessing you think could never happen - and that would be absolutely devastating to you.

B) When you say you 'love' your husband - what do you mean? Love is action - and it is difficult to see how having an affair, and then determining to lie about it are in any way actions of love (at least, love FOR HIM. For you, yes, they are demonstrations of love. Shows how much you love yourself - but for your husband? Not so much...)



> i am willing to work on my part... and like it was pointed out, i am here to seek help and not him... so the working would be on my part i realise... however, all the info provided about the husband was to give perspective on the situation (since i am here, it will be obviously MY perspective)...


Yes - all the information about your husband's activities was necessary. We have all that info now - so no need to go over it. The only info we need regarding that is if something you forgot pops up - or something new comes along. In the meantime, there isn't any need to repeat any of it. That's one reason I say you use his actions to justify your own. You are separate individuals - he is responsible for his actions, and you are for yours.



> What would your input be, apart from all the criticism and blame, given the fact that i want to 'BETTER MY MARRIAGE' and its only me we will be working on...


I assume you are using the word criticism in a negative context (as in belligerent character assassination, etc) rather than the positive (examining a film or book for value.) As long as you take things that way, you will still be working from a defensive position, rather than one in which any action can be taken to solve problems. As for 'blame' - I haven't blamed you once. I have tried very hard to get BEHIND his actions, so get you to start listing possible reasons for why he acts the way he does. So far, you simply state his actions, and then complain that you've done all you can to change him, and that the reason you do "x" "y" and "z" are because HE does "a" "b" and "c."

This is standard procedure - if you've read any of my other posts, you should already know it: 

1) Tell him you had an affair, the reason you justified it, and that it has ended. Ask for his forgiveness.

ALWAYS work from a clean slate - don't let any of your contributions to the problems in your marriage be between you two (which is WHY I have tried so hard to get you to see what you have done.) However, since you don't seem to be willing to examine these areas, I am simply going to give you the tools and let you do the work by yourself. There's always a chance it might work.


2) Sit down with him and make a very clear statement of what you need. This is a PLACARD - it does not require any answer from him. All you need to do is officially give him notice.

Use the WTFS method (use your OWN words here)

*W*hen you refuse sex with me (etc...)

I *T*hink you don't love me 

I *F*eel sad, lonely, etc...

*S*o I am respectfully requesting that you end all porn, etc....

(Phrase all requests with the WTFS format - and use the words 'respectfully request' deliberately.)

Prepare ahead of time, don't pay any attention to excuses, promises, etc. You are already aware of all that. The reason you are doing this is, as I said before, to give him official notice that you are not going to accept this behavior any more, and from now on are actively going to work on changing your marriage.

You MUST keep in mind that it may come to him losing you - maybe not divorce, but quite possibly separation - if not just for your own sanity. You have some work ahead of you. I am not sure I wish to continue the conversation, but I'll keep it in mind - and see what happens. In the meantime, there are plenty of others who are willing to give you options.

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Now playing: Bob James - Rosalie
via FoxyTunes


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## married-infidel (Apr 6, 2010)

Thank you for all your time...


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