# Have you ever experienced this?



## Faithful Wife

Dang, I have experienced it and how do I wish I had the nerve to do with this chick did!

Actually I did do something like that in high school to a boy that had more than once done exactly what the guy in this video did, and after about the 3rd time I punched him and told him I was going to have my brother kick his ass if he ever touched me again. 

The times it has happened to me as an adult, the idiot left the scene so fast I didn’t have the chance. 

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/watch-badass-georgia-waitress-down-120000902.html

If you can’t watch it....guy grabs waitress’s ass, then she pulls him to the ground and he gets arrested. Go girl!


----------



## A_Common_Man

Start a conversation with her, flirt and ask her for her phone number. Grabbing her rear end, yeah, that is pretty bad.


----------



## personofinterest

I think she's awesome lol


I'm gonna go make popcorn and come back 😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Lostinthought61

that is awesome...just awesome...i hope that guy gets shamed


----------



## Faithful Wife

Lostinthought61 said:


> that is awesome...just awesome...i hope that guy gets shamed


Even better, the asswipe went to jail!


----------



## Rowan

A_Common_Man said:


> Start a conversation with her, flirt and ask her for her phone number. Grabbing her rear end, yeah, that is pretty bad.


So, that happened in Savannah, which is just down the road from me. The incident is all over the local news down here. The really fun part is that the guy was there with his long-term girlfriend and their two daughters. 

Yep. This winner groped the wait staff while he was out with his partner and kids... :slap:


----------



## chillymorn69

I have been groped i wonder if I should have thrown her to the groung and called the police.


I guess violence is sometime a good thing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

chillymorn69 said:


> I have been groped i wonder if I should have thrown her to the groung and called the police.
> 
> 
> I guess violence is sometime a good thing.


Perhaps if you had been groped by a man you would understand the desire to throw his ass down.

Also, please note that the waitress did not go to jail, the groper did. The police saw the video and arrested HIM. Why? Because it is against the law to sexually touch someone without their consent.

Also, really? Do you have daughters? You would defend this creep if he put his hands on your daughter's ass while she was trying to work, and while his wife and kids sat a few feet away unaware? Really? Sheesh.

I've got to put you on ignore so I won't see your crap anymore.


----------



## arbitrator

Rowan said:


> So, that happened in Savannah, which is just down the road from me. The incident is all over the local news down here. The really fun part is that the guy was there with his long-term girlfriend and their two daughters.
> 
> Yep. This winner groped the wait staff while he was out with his partner and kids... :slap:


*Good for her!

I'm wondering what kind of a sorry legal defense he's going to try to mount in court!

With evidence like this film footage, I'd absolutely pay to be the prosecuting attorney!*


----------



## I shouldnthave

She's a bad ass!!

Me... no, I have never taken a guy down like that... but.

When I was younger, and used to go to lots of packed concerts, plenty of guys got a donkey kick for grabbing my ass. And they usually were a lot more aggressive than the guy in the video, and probably deserved more than a good KICK! That was always enough for them to get the clue, I am sure the gross dude just moved on to his next victim though.

More recently I was on a crowded train, and some creep came up and pressed his erection against my ass. I YELLED - YELLED!!! GET YOUR CROTCH OFF ME *NOW*!!! 

He quickly moved, the whole train, stared at him, he tried to hide his face then jumped off the train as soon as it stopped.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I shouldnthave said:


> She's a bad ass!!
> 
> Me... no, I have never taken a guy down like that... but.
> 
> When I was younger, and used to go to lots of packed concerts, plenty of guys got a donkey kick for grabbing my ass. And they usually were a lot more aggressive than the guy in the video, and probably deserved more than a good KICK! That was always enough for them to get the clue, I am sure the gross dude just moved on to his next victim though.
> 
> More recently I was on a crowded train, and some creep came up and pressed his erection against my ass. I YELLED - YELLED!!! GET YOUR CROTCH OFF ME *NOW*!!!
> 
> He quickly moved, the whole train, stared at him, he tried to hide his face then jumped off the train as soon as it stopped.


And yet apparently some men at TAM believe we should accept it and be all happy about the "attention" we are getting when a strange man gropes us in public. Because you know, it doesn't _REALLY_ hurt us. And we are just whiny snowflakes who have the audacity to believe our bodies belong to us and that we should have the right to not be sexually touched by strangers on the train or while we are working. And the male gropers are apparently just "misunderstood" and are actually trying to flirt with us, so hey! We should give the poor guy a break and go on a date with him or something instead of shove his face in the dirt.


----------



## A_Common_Man

I am a man and never recall ever touching a woman sexually without her consent. Never would I do so and I think it is very wrong to do this. The same rules apply to women as well. The only woman I touch sexually now is my wife.


----------



## OnTheFly

You go girl!!

We'd still be cheering if the man who Cristina Garcia groped did the same thing, right?

lol

(this post is for PersonOfInterest so her popcorn isn't wasted)


----------



## Andy1001

Faithful Wife said:


> And yet apparently some men at TAM believe we should accept it and be all happy about the "attention" we are getting when a strange man gropes us in public. Because you know, it doesn't _REALLY_ hurt us. And we are just whiny snowflakes who have the audacity to believe our bodies belong to us and that we should have the right to not be sexually touched by strangers on the train or while we are working. And the male gropers are apparently just "misunderstood" and are actually trying to flirt with us, so hey! We should give the poor guy a break and go on a date with him or something instead of shove his face in the dirt.


I was in a bar in London one night and I was talking to an Australian girl.There were a lot of military personal there,US,British and Aussie,I had went in with my brother who is career military.
A drunk English guy groped the girl I was talking to and then turned and laughed with his friends,I was just about to tear into him when she hit him.I heard his nose break and he fell to the ground with blood pumping out of him.Then he started crying.
His two friends started remonstrating with the Aussie but she called them a pair of pussies and told them come outside if they had the guts.Neither of them were brave enough.
She was a self defense instructor with the Australian defense force.
She didn’t need me or anyone else to look after her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Andy1001 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet apparently some men at TAM believe we should accept it and be all happy about the "attention" we are getting when a strange man gropes us in public. Because you know, it doesn't _REALLY_ hurt us. And we are just whiny snowflakes who have the audacity to believe our bodies belong to us and that we should have the right to not be sexually touched by strangers on the train or while we are working. And the male gropers are apparently just "misunderstood" and are actually trying to flirt with us, so hey! We should give the poor guy a break and go on a date with him or something instead of shove his face in the dirt.
> 
> 
> 
> I was in a bar in London one night and I was talking to an Australian girl.There were a lot of military personal there,US,British and Aussie,I had went in with my brother who is career military.
> A drunk English guy groped the girl I was talking to and then turned and laughed with his friends,I was just about to tear into him when she hit him.I heard his nose break and he fell to the ground with blood pumping out of him.Then he started crying.
> His two friends started remonstrating with the Aussie but she called them a pair of pussies and told them come outside if they had the guts.Neither of them were brave enough.
> She was a self defense instructor with the Australian defense force.
> She didn’t need me or anyone else to look after her.
Click to expand...

I love it.

Why do you think some men here condone this behavior by trying to belittle any woman who would defend herself after such a episode? Just curious as to your opinion on that.


----------



## Red Sonja

Good for her, maybe this will teach the next ass-hat to think twice before he reaches out and touches a stranger.

I have had a similar thing happen to me … on the street in broad daylight FFS. Mine was a frontal breast grab (!). I used a method I was taught in Aikido class … grabbed the guys wrist with one hand and bent his hand back (ouch) with my other hand and kept bending until he went to the ground on his knees. He yelped and quickly apologized so he avoided my next move which would have been my knee under his chin. Instead I just twisted his arm around to his back, pushed him down and ran away.

There are all sorts of nasty things you can do to a grabby hand that hurt like hell and will immobilize idiots.


----------



## Andy1001

Faithful Wife said:


> I love it.
> 
> Why do you think some men here condone this behavior by trying to belittle any woman who would defend herself after such a episode? Just curious as to your opinion on that.


I think that some men feel so uncomfortable by the idea of a confident,self assured woman that it threatens their masculinity.The last vestige of male dominance is physical strength, so they use their size to try and impress and maybe subconsciously intimidate.
Also they see people working in a job serving them and it gives them a feeling of superiority,probably the only time in their lives they feel this.And also because servers depend on tips this also lets some guys believe they can behave inappropriately and get away with it.
I recommend to every woman I know to learn self defense.I own a gym and every day we have free self defense classes for women which are run by a female friend of mine.They are extremely popular.


----------



## Andy1001

Red Sonja said:


> Good for her, maybe this will teach the next ass-hat to think twice before he reaches out and touches a stranger.
> 
> I have had a similar thing happen to me … on the street in broad daylight FFS. Mine was a frontal breast grab (!). I used a method I was taught in Aikido class … grabbed the guys wrist with one hand and bent his hand back (ouch) with my other hand and kept bending until he went to the ground on his knees. He yelped and quickly apologized so he avoided my next move which would have been my knee under his chin. Instead I just twisted his arm around to his back, pushed him down and ran away.
> 
> There are all sorts of nasty things you can do to a grabby hand that hurt like hell and will immobilize idiots.


Nikyo?


----------



## Red Sonja

Andy1001 said:


> Nikyo?


Yes!

Do you know/teach Aikido? Nikyo is simple and requires no real strength but when you commit to doing it quickly it's very effective on "grabby hands". Not many people can counter it unless they are well versed in Aikido or some other martial arts form.

There are also some great moves using your elbow when an attacker comes at you from the back. My elbows are quite sharp and pointy


----------



## Andy1001

Red Sonja said:


> Andy1001 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nikyo?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes!
> 
> Do you know/teach Aikido? Nikyo is simple and requires no real strength but when you commit to doing it quickly it's very effective on "grabby hands". Not many people can counter it unless they are well versed in Aikido or some other martial arts form.
> 
> There are also some great moves using your elbow when an attacker comes at you from the back. My elbows are quite sharp and pointy <a href="https://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>
Click to expand...

I’m thirty four years old and started learning Karate when I was ten. A few years later I started learning aikido. I used to teach kickboxing but I don’t have time now.
When I am discussing self defense with my female customers I always emphasize two things,eyes and balls.
Hit any man in the balls and he will stop whatever he is doing for long enough for you to get away.A finger in the eyes,a spray of perfume or even deodorant will give you time to run.
If someone grabs you from behind,lean forward then throw your head back as hard as you can.Your skull is a lot harder than his nose.If you have high heels then stamp on his foot as hard as you can.
These are not fighting moves they are designed for to give you enough time to run.


----------



## BioFury

Good for her. The guy should be nine-ironed in the testicles.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Andy1001 said:


> I think that some men feel so uncomfortable by the idea of a confident,self assured woman that it threatens their masculinity.The last vestige of male dominance is physical strength, so they use their size to try and impress and maybe subconsciously intimidate..


This is terrifying and you are probably right about guys like that.

Why do you think a guy like chillymorn would think a woman should not be “violent” in response to such an action since he is not also able to be “violent” if he is the one who is groped by a woman? In other words, he is implying that what the guy did wasn’t any big thing because hey, it happens to men too and men don’t go throwing the woman down on the ground over it. As if this is an example of how things are unfair to men.

To be honest, I’m not sure what the proper reaction would be if this happened to a man by a woman. But if another man grabbed a strange man’s ass we all know there is a high chance there is going to be a violent response.

If a woman did this I would not expect the man to just accept it. I’m sure there are some men who may think “oh cool someone just grabbed my ass, it must mean I’m so hot!” And maybe in some cases that would be enjoyable or something. But what if the woman was abhorrent to the man in ways that made his skin crawl? Now is he flattered? What should he do? I honestly don’t think he should be quiet about it in either case, just like a woman shouldn’t. And if he felt that if he could detain her so that the police could get involved I wouldn’t blame him for that either. But most men can easily detain most women without much effort. Whereas a woman is not able to detain a man without getting him to the ground somehow first. It’s not as if the guy is just going to stick around if you say “excuse me sir, I noticed you grabbed my ass without my consent, would you mind waiting here peacefully until the police get here to arrest you?”

Why do men like chilly believe this isn’t a problem women face? One which we have little recourse for usually and then when a woman does something like what we saw in the video he just feels bad for the man. If the same thing happened to his wife, he feels she should just shut up and allow it versus take any action?


----------



## BioFury

Faithful Wife said:


> This is terrifying and you are probably right about guys like that.
> 
> Why do you think a guy like chillymorn would think a woman should not be “violent” in response to such an action since he is not also able to be “violent” if he is the one who is groped by a woman? In other words, he is implying that what the guy did wasn’t any big thing because hey, it happens to men too and men don’t go throwing the woman down on the ground over it. As if this is an example of how things are unfair to men.
> 
> To be honest, I’m not sure what the proper reaction would be if this happened to a man by a woman. But if another man grabbed a strange man’s ass we all know there is a high chance there is going to be a violent response.
> 
> If a woman did this I would not expect the man to just accept it. I’m sure there are some men who may think “oh cool someone just grabbed my ass, it must mean I’m so hot!” And maybe in some cases that would be enjoyable or something. But what if the woman was abhorrent to the man in ways that made his skin crawl? Now is he flattered? What should he do? I honestly don’t think he should be quiet about it in either case, just like a woman shouldn’t. And if he felt that if he could detain her so that the police could get involved I wouldn’t blame him for that either. But most men can easily detain most women without much effort. Whereas a woman is not able to detain a man without getting him to the ground somehow first. It’s not as if the guy is just going to stick around if you say “excuse me sir, I noticed you grabbed my ass without my consent, would you mind waiting here peacefully until the police get here to arrest you?”
> 
> Why do men like chilly believe this isn’t a problem women face? One which we have little recourse for usually and then when a woman does something like what we saw in the video he just feels bad for the man. If the same thing happened to his wife, he feels she should just shut up and allow it versus take any action?


If another man grabbed my butt, I'd be so shocked he'd have long-since walked off before I picked my jaw up off the floor.

I don't think Chillmorn is saying it's not a problem, or that women shouldn't be able to use violence against men if they are assaulted. I think he's attacking the hypocritical feminist ideal. The women who parade around screaming for equal rights and treatment, while at the same time retaining, and expecting, the preferential treatment given to them by men. One of those preferential treatments being, not using violence against them.

But just to be clear, I'm 110% supportive of women destroying men who assault them. I just think it's hypocritical for feminists to demand equality, but only in areas of benefit to them. Which I think might be what chillmorn was saying.


----------



## Faithful Wife

BioFury said:


> If another man grabbed my butt, I'd be so shocked he'd have long-since walked off before I picked my jaw up off the floor.
> 
> I don't think Chillmorn is saying it's not a problem, or that women shouldn't be able to use violence against men if they are assaulted. I think he's attacking the hypocritical feminist ideal. The women who parade around screaming for equal rights and treatment, while at the same time retaining, and expecting, the preferential treatment given to them by men. One of those preferential treatments being, not using violence against them.
> 
> But just to be clear, I'm 110% supportive of women destroying men who assault them. I just think it's hypocritical for feminists to demand equality, but only in areas of benefit to them. Which I think might be what chillmorn was saying.


But why does this even come up? No woman here is saying “oh yay, we get to be violent toward men but they can’t be violent toward us, ha ha ha!” Why does it always come around like that when that is not what anyone is saying or thinking? We are talking about something that happens to women a lot and usually women have no recourse. That’s why this video is so viral. It happens all the time yet men don’t get arrested for it like they should be since women can rarely prove it or detain the guy.

Why is this now related to feminists who supposedly “demand equality but only in areas that benefit them”? And why can women not even talk about harassment or assault at all without this being brought up?

Why are we not able to even talk about it without some men acting like their rights are being threatened? Chilly’s comment actually sounds like he is on the guys side. It sounds like he is saying we should just shut up and take it. If he is not saying that, then what exactly ARE women supposed to do that wouldn’t make him think his rights are being taken away?

Personally if I had to risk an assault charge myself for doing something like the woman in the video did, I would go ahead and take that chance. Arrest me for kicking a guy’s ass after he grabbed mine. If that’s what has to happen to show that this is “fair” to men, then sure arrest me. Because it has nothing to do with feminism or whatever. It would be something I would take on a police record for.

Sadly though it would be more likely that I’d get my ass kicked instead, because I don’t have skills like that anyway. I suppose chilly would think that was a good thing. Because it would be “fair” to the man and all. 

FTR, I don’t think any man around TAM has ever done things like this. The men who do these things are typically sleeze balls who do other insidious things to people who have less power than they do in some way. Men at TAM are not these kinds of guys. But in discussions like these, men at TAM still defend these guys. Like they hate women who they assume are feminists more than they hate guys who would do these kinds of things.

It’s so confusing. And then I always have to wonder how these guys would feel if this happened to their wife. Seems they would not want this to happen and would be enraged, but if it happens to a woman he doesn’t know, meh who cares the poor guy didn’t deserve to get thrown to the ground.


----------



## BioFury

Faithful Wife said:


> But why does this even come up? No woman here is saying “oh yay, we get to be violent toward men but they can’t be violent toward us, ha ha ha!” Why does it always come around like that when that is not what anyone is saying or thinking? We are talking about something that happens to women a lot and usually women have no recourse. That’s why this video is so viral. It happens all the time yet men don’t get arrested for it like they should be since women can rarely prove it or detain the guy.
> 
> Why is this now related to feminists who supposedly “demand equality but only in areas that benefit them”? And why can women not even talk about harassment or assault at all without this being brought up?
> 
> Why are we not able to even talk about it without some men acting like their rights are being threatened? Chilly’s comment actually sounds like he is on the guys side. It sounds like he is saying we should just shut up and take it. If he is not saying that, then what exactly ARE women supposed to do that wouldn’t make him think his rights are being taken away?
> 
> Personally if I had to risk an assault charge myself for doing something like the woman in the video did, I would go ahead and take that chance. Arrest me for kicking a guy’s ass after he grabbed mine. If that’s what has to happen to show that this is “fair” to men, then sure arrest me. Because it has nothing to do with feminism or whatever. It would be something I would take on a police record for.
> 
> Sadly though it would be more likely that I’d get my ass kicked instead, because I don’t have skills like that anyway. I suppose chilly would think that was a good thing. Because it would be “fair” to the man and all.
> 
> FTR, I don’t think any man around TAM has ever done things like this. The men who do these things are typically sleeze balls who do other insidious things to people who have less power than they do in some way. Men at TAM are not these kinds of guys. But in discussions like these, men at TAM still defend these guys. Like they hate women who they assume are feminists more than they hate guys who would do these kinds of things.
> 
> It’s so confusing. And then I always have to wonder how these guys would feel if this happened to their wife. Seems they would not want this to happen and would be enraged, but if it happens to a woman he doesn’t know, meh who cares the poor guy didn’t deserve to get thrown to the ground.


I think it comes up because the leftist, and sometimes feminist (but really just minority victim mentality), ideal is in everyone's faces all the time. None of us can go out in public, or turn on the TV, without being assaulted by some type of left-wing propaganda. The delivery mechanism for most of these messages does not provide a way to send a response, so frustration builds, and eventually finds an outlet. TAM, in this case 

I personally believe that most women are normal. They aren't neo-nazi feminists. The problem is, the normal people are too busy being productive, and actually having lives, that their spokespeople end up being those who don't accurately represent them.

I don't think any men think women shouldn't be able to defend themselves. They just detest the hypocrisy of the "we don't need men, we're just as good as men, and men are pigs" message, while at the same time being held to a gentlemen's standard. It's similar to remaining professional with a belligerent and rude customer. Having to take the high road when the other person isn't pulling their punches.


----------



## Faithful Wife

BioFury said:


> I think it comes up because the leftist, and sometimes feminist (but really just minority victim mentality), ideal is in everyone's faces all the time. None of us can go out in public, or turn on the TV, without being assaulted by some type of left-wing propaganda. The delivery mechanism for most of these messages does not provide a way to send a response, so frustration builds, and eventually finds an outlet. TAM, in this case
> 
> I personally believe that most women are normal. They aren't neo-nazi feminists. The problem is, the normal people are too busy being productive, and actually having lives, that their spokespeople end up being those who don't accurately represent them.
> 
> I don't think any men think women shouldn't be able to defend themselves. They just detest the hypocrisy of the "we don't need men, we're just as good as men, and men are pigs" message, while at the same time being held to a gentlemen's standard. It's similar to remaining professional with a belligerent and rude customer.


So every woman has to pay for what men feel the fem-nazis say and do. Every woman is now painted with the same brush. At the same time, every man is painted with the victim brush. Because fem-nazi ideals have ruined life for all men and now all women will take the blame.

I still don’t get it. TAM is a truly strange place. I never hear men in my real life who feel they are victims of women or feminists. 

But ok, so this is a TAM specific phenomenon. And not all men at TAM of course. Just a few actually but those few are constantly screaming “poor me I’m a victim of scary feminists”.


----------



## BioFury

Faithful Wife said:


> So every woman has to pay for what men feel the fem-nazis say and do. Every woman is now painted with the same brush. At the same time, every man is painted with the victim brush. Because fem-nazi ideals have ruined life for all men and now all women will take the blame.
> 
> I still don’t get it. TAM is a truly strange place. I never hear men in my real life who feel they are victims of women or feminists.
> 
> But ok, so this is a TAM specific phenomenon. And not all men at TAM of course. Just a few actually but those few are constantly screaming “poor me I’m a victim of scary feminists”.


Haha, perhaps. Maybe TAM is just a place where men can vent their frustrations without tangible consequences, so they do so. Or perhaps the internet is where men receive the most hate, so the internet is where they dish it back.

But in actuality, this is a real issue. There are very few normal women in positions of power, or in a position to have their message heard. Same with men. The propaganda that is constantly being spread is shaping our youth, and therefore shaping the future.


----------



## personofinterest

chillymorn69 said:


> I have been groped i wonder if I should have thrown her to the groung and called the police.
> 
> 
> I guess violence is sometime a good thing.


 This is the kind of comment I made the popcorn 4. It didn't take long, just like I knew it wouldn't.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

personofinterest said:


> This is the kind of comment I made the popcorn 4. It didn't take long, just like I knew it wouldn't.


I read his post a little different. Ive been groped on the ass by a woman. I wonder what the story would be if I turned around and knocked the ***** out?

For the record, I think that chick is badass for doing what she did. The guy is a creep and a scumbag. He got what he deserved. I have no issue at all with what she did and absolutely support any woman to do the same.

With that said, what is socially acceptable for a man to deal with some scumbag woman groping him? Equal rights... And equal lefts?


----------



## personofinterest

If she weighed 125 and he weighed 220, I'm not sure it would be an exact comparison. However, if he took her groping hand, put it behind her back, and pressed her to the wall to restrain her, I woukdnt bat an eye. She basically assaulted him.

I also think its BS when movies show a woman slapping a man. Everyone would screech if he slapped her.

It's just the predictable "whataboutism" that gets on my nerves.


----------



## Cromer

Someone commented "what if" the genders had been reversed.

I was at a wedding about 6 years ago in my dress uniform. One of my officers was getting married and I went with a couple of other officers. The groom's mother (married), after a couple of drinks, came up behind me, grabbed my ass, squeezed, and I slapped her hand away and she spilled her drink on her dress. She looked surprised and upset, and said, "I was only checking to see if it was as tight as I thought it was!" Everyone around me thought it was funny but I was embarrassed, especially as her son's commanding officer.

Now just IMAGINE what would have happened if I had grabbed her ass instead. It's refreshing to see what the young lady did and I support her actions, but if the reverse had happened the result would've been different, no doubt.


----------



## Faithful Wife

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the kind of comment I made the popcorn 4. It didn't take long, just like I knew it wouldn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I read his post a little different. Ive been groped on the ass by a woman. I wonder what the story would be if I turned around and knocked the ***** out?
> 
> For the record, I think that chick is badass for doing what she did. The guy is a creep and a scumbag. He got what he deserved. I have no issue at all with what she did and absolutely support any woman to do the same.
> 
> With that said, what is socially acceptable for a man to deal with some scumbag woman groping him? Equal rights... And equal lefts?
Click to expand...

Did you watch the video? She did not knock him the F out. In fact, it looks like he was not even harmed he was just pulled down easily because he wasn’t expecting it. Then she yells at him. She didn’t start punching or kicking him. So why make any comparison about knocking someone out? That’s not what happened. 

I know you are saying she was justified. I just don’t know where the comparison you made comes in because that’s not what happened.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> Someone commented "what if" the genders had been reversed.
> 
> I was at a wedding about 6 years ago in my dress uniform. One of my officers was getting married and I went with a couple of other officers. The groom's mother (married), after a couple of drinks, came up behind me, grabbed my ass, squeezed, and I slapped her hand away and she spilled her drink on her dress. She looked surprised and upset, and said, "I was only checking to see if it was as tight as I thought it was!" Everyone around me thought it was funny but I was embarrassed, especially as her son's commanding officer.
> 
> Now just IMAGINE what would have happened if I had grabbed her ass instead. It's refreshing to see what the young lady did and I support her actions, but if the reverse had happened the result would've been different, no doubt.


Awesome the way you handled this. The woman was a complete ass hat if she thinks this is ok. Gross.

What do you think you would have done if it was a man who grabbed your ass?


----------



## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Awesome the way you handled this. The woman was a complete ass hat if she thinks this is ok. Gross.
> 
> What do you think you would have done if it was a man who grabbed your ass?


It depends on who it was, and I know that sounds strange. A long time ago, my best friend's sister, who I've known since she was a baby, grabbed my ass and her husband was there. We'd all had a few drinks. I told her "you missed your chance years ago" and she said, "I just wanted to feel a tight ass, Lord knows it's the only one in this family!" Then her husband grabbed my ass and said: "Yep, it's tighter than mine, you did miss your chance."

That's the only time a guy has grabbed my ass.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you watch the video? She did not knock him the F out. In fact, it looks like he was not even harmed he was just pulled down easily because he wasn’t expecting it. Then she yells at him. She didn’t start punching or kicking him. So why make any comparison about knocking someone out? That’s not what happened.
> 
> I know you are saying she was justified. I just don’t know where the comparison you made comes in because that’s not what happened.


Yes I did watch it. I only made that comparison because I'm trying to figure out where that line is. If she slapped him, she would have been justified. Does a man turn around and slap the hell out of a woman? Curious where your line is and why. Another lady said size and weight difference. Ok, but if I as a 180lbs 5'7" man reached out and grabbed some 6'3" 220lbs dude's ads, and he tuened around amd knocked me out, there would be no issue with it. 


Also because you seemed rather inflamed at a seemingly benign comment. I dont think he said anything was wrong with what she did. You went on to say stuff about his wife or daughter being groped. So you were a bit out of line and in my estimation, you were projecting quite a bit there.


----------



## RoseAglow

Cromer said:


> ....That's the only time a guy has grabbed my ass.


 @faithfulwife, I think @Cromer's quote is the dividing line between the sexes on this one.
@Cromer, I agree with FW that the lady at the wedding was very rude! I think you handled it as well as anyone could; from your other posts, you seem to have a quick wit and can respond to difficult situations with humor, which is awesome! 

I'm not trying to downplay the "Ick" factor of that lady's overreach; at the same time, this seems to be the extent of most men's experiences with unwanted advances. That is to say, it's usually a one-off and there is usually no chance of any harm coming from it, as it's almost always coming from a woman and only from men in jest. 

Whereas many women, I'd guess most women truly, have had numerous unwanted gropes and worse. Most men don't experience erections pushed up against them in crowded concerts, trains, or just outright chest (akin to boob) and ass grabs. Men (thankfully!) don't often experience being sexually felt up by other men who are bigger and stronger. 

For this reason, I think there is a difference between how men and women experience those kind of sexual gropes, to the extent that men experience at all. It is a prelude to a threat or an outright threat for most women.

Playing the "what if" gender game...

What if the waitress hadn't pushed back, and just stayed quiet, and saw that guy when she was leaving late at night in the parking lot? She should be nervous? If that guy, who was waiting for her, attacked her, what do you think the result would be?.

What if the waitress was instead a waiter, and that guy grabbed his ass? What if the waiter was leaving late at night and saw that guy waiting for him in the parking lot. If that guy attacked the waiter, what do you think the result would be?

What if the waitress was instead a waiter, and it was a woman and not a man who grabbed his ass. What if the waiter was leaving late at night and saw that lady waiting for him in the parking lot? If the woman attacked him, what do you think the result would be?

Finally, let's go back to the waitress. Let's say that it was a woman instead of a man who grabbed her ass. What if the waitress was leaving late at night and saw that lady waiting for her in the parking log. If the woman attacked the waitress, what would be the result?

Obviously no one knows what the result would be in any of the situations, but we can hedge some bets. Assuming that no one in any of the scenarios had a weapon, I think it is a safe bet that the man and woman facing the male assailant would be at the highest risk of sexual assault and physical injury, right?

Yet, how many men, vs women, have been in that kind of a situation, or something like it, where they were concerned about being sexually harmed from another man? By the stats, between 50-75% of women have had that experience. To our current knowledge, that number is a lot lower (but not near 0!) for men. I think those men who are brave enough to speak out (thinking Brandon Fraiser, the boys from Penn State, the boys in the Catholic Church) would also be supported.

If the video had shown a male waiter pushing away a male customer who grabbed his ass, I'd like to think that the male would also be getting kudos! 

All that said, I actually do agree with @chillymorn to an extent. I think he was referring to a recent situation on a singing or talent show, like The Voice or America's Got Talent or something similar. A woman judge loved one of the young man's performances and grabbed his butt on national TV. The young man was embarrassed and later said that it was an unwelcome grab.

I saw a clip of it on FB or twitter or something and it made me cringe. I felt horribly for him. In my eyes, it was very much like how any other woman would feel if the genders were switched and it was a young woman who had her ass grabbed on national TV by a male judge.

There were a lot - A LOT!!- of women who blew it off. There were men and women who questioned the young man's sexuality, because who wouldn't want a beautiful woman to grab his butt? It was a horrible situation for that young man. While the woman judge did get a lot of blow-back, and I think apologized to the young man, the consequences would have been much more severe if the genders were reversed.

Now, should a man physically fight back against a woman who grabbed his ass, like the lady judge did on national TV? My answer here is No. But neither should a woman on national TV physically fight back. There is no real danger of further assault, IMO. To me this is what would determine whether/when it is appropriate to physically fight back.


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> And yet apparently some men at TAM believe we should accept it and be all happy about the "attention" we are getting when a strange man gropes us in public. Because you know, it doesn't _REALLY_ hurt us. And we are just whiny snowflakes who have the audacity to believe our bodies belong to us and that we should have the right to not be sexually touched by strangers on the train or while we are working. And the male gropers are apparently just "misunderstood" and are actually trying to flirt with us, so hey! We should give the poor guy a break and go on a date with him or something instead of shove his face in the dirt.


Is that attitude present on TAM?? I probably missed it do to male blindness but that attitude would surprise me, that anyone besides a troglodyte would think that way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> And yet apparently some men at TAM believe we should accept it and be all happy about the "attention" we are getting when a strange man gropes us in public. Because you know, it doesn't _REALLY_ hurt us. And we are just whiny snowflakes who have the audacity to believe our bodies belong to us and that we should have the right to not be sexually touched by strangers on the train or while we are working. And the male gropers are apparently just "misunderstood" and are actually trying to flirt with us, so hey! We should give the poor guy a break and go on a date with him or something instead of shove his face in the dirt.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that attitude present on TAM?? I probably missed it do to male blindness but that attitude would surprise me, that anyone besides a troglodyte would think that way.
Click to expand...

No Conan, I’m sorry. I was ranting and extrapolating. It was in response to what chilly said and many previous comments by men over the years here on various threads. The ones who don’t seem to believe any of this actually happens, and the ones who claim they would take it as a compliment of a strange woman grabbed their ass.

But that is not most men here, by far. Just a few. 

The whole “we men are victims because feminism” thing is far more common.


----------



## ConanHub

For those comparing the sexes, please....

The vast majority of men are in little danger of being overcome physically by an out of line woman.

The vast majority of women are in very real danger of being overcome physically by the idiotic men groping them.

5 average women could get stubbornly stupid with me and I would feel no threat.

One belligerent man is a potentially serious threat for even an above average woman.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> No Conan, I’m sorry. I was ranting and extrapolating. It was in response to what chilly said and many previous comments by men over the years here on various threads. The ones who don’t seem to believe any of this actually happens, and the ones who claim they would take it as a compliment of a strange woman grabbed their ass.
> 
> But that is not most men here, by far. Just a few.
> 
> The whole “we men are victims because feminism” thing is far more common.


This is kind of what I was getting at. I do think some of you ladies were looking for the first guy to say anything at all that could be perceived as justification for his actions or reprimanding her for her reaction. Then pouncing on him for a seriously benign comment that took a lot of injecting your own meanings into his words which didn't say one way or the other that the waitress was right or wrong. 

Anyway, my line is simple. I would turn around and verbally embarrase a woman for that, but I wouldn't lay a hand on her. Even in an act of violence towards me by a woman, I wouldn't just square up and knock her out. I would cover and get away from her asap. Only if I felt seriously threatened would I hit a woman. But I do think men and women should be treated differently in different circumstances. Because men and women are quite different. There are advantages and disadvantages to being either gender. 

As far as the last comment about being threatened, men are raped more than women. Specifically young boys and men in jail. It is by other men mostly. So I can fully understand the threat, even if you think I can't. I wont let my son go into a public bathroom alone for this reason. 

My opinion on self defense, if you don't want to learn a martial art like Red Sonja (awesome story btw! Way to go!) Get a can of pepper spray. Preferably the gel type. You can get some good spray to put on your keychain for like 15 bucks. As a matter of fact, get a couple of them. Throw one in your car, carry one in your purse, handbag, wherever. Make sure you have one on your person at all times. If a dude grabs your ass, spray him in the face. Then kick him in the balls while you are at it. :laugh:


----------



## Faithful Wife

ConanHub said:


> For those comparing the sexes, please....
> 
> The vast majority of men are in little danger of being overcome physically by an out of line woman.
> 
> The vast majority of women are in very real danger of being overcome physically by the idiotic men groping them.
> 
> 5 average women could get stubbornly stupid with me and I would feel no threat.
> 
> One belligerent man is a potentially serious threat for even an above average woman.


Which is why usually when this happens to women, we don’t have the ability to do anything about it. For those who think fast enough they may donkey kick him or whatever, but if no one else is around, it’s pretty dangerous to even try something like what the waitress did. She knew she was at work and others would help her if the a hole fought back. 

Again, the only apples to apples way to see this for most men is to assume their ass was grabbed by another man. Now you are in a position where you are disgusted, enraged, and possibly ready to fight. You would feel violated and angry. You would think this man needs his face kicked in. So the emotional equivalent would be the same. But a man in this sitch would still have a huge advantage over most women because he may actually be able to detain him. And anyone witnessing this would feel the groper was a creep who needs to be arrested.


----------



## personofinterest

ConanHub said:


> For those comparing the sexes, please....
> 
> The vast majority of men are in little danger of being overcome physically by an out of line woman.
> 
> The vast majority of women are in very real danger of being overcome physically by the idiotic men groping them.
> 
> 5 average women could get stubbornly stupid with me and I would feel no threat.
> 
> One belligerent man is a potentially serious threat for even an above average woman.


That this even has to be said prices the Reddit incels and neckbeards are gaining ground. Lol


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dude Lebowski (I can’t quote or tag you right now so I’m hoping you’ll see this anyway). The one innocent comment by chilly is not one innocent comment. There have been so many similar comments by him over the years that I just ugh, it makes me sick. 

So I put him on ignore and now I feel better.

Sorry about the rant.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Faithful Wife said:


> Dude Lebowski (I can’t quote or tag you right now so I’m hoping you’ll see this anyway). The one innocent comment by chilly is not one innocent comment. There have been so many similar comments by him over the years that I just ugh, it makes me sick.
> 
> So I put him on ignore and now I feel better.
> 
> Sorry about the rant.


Then I do understand. I just saw his post and thought "wow, these replies are a little out of balance with what he said" in the case of the straw that broke the camel's back, or however that saying goes, I do understand. I'm not aware of his post history as much as I am yours. Thus, you seemed a little out of line to me as I do know you are certainly the type to stand up for men as well if they are the victims of injustices. Which I thought he was just pointing out that he had been groped. And I can believe it, because I've been groped as well at bars by drunk women. If he's your typical woman hating DB, then I get your reaction to his post now, where I didn't understand it before. 

Carry on.


----------



## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> Awesome the way you handled this. The woman was a complete ass hat if she thinks this is ok. Gross.
> 
> What do you think you would have done if it was a man who grabbed your ass?


Thinking more about this, it was a while ago, I remember that I didn't know who had done it, the smack was instinctive as I turned around. When I saw who it was, I also remember saying "next time ask my wife first". 

I can remember quite a few times over the years where I was touched, grabbed, pulled, or unexpectedly hugged by women I didn't know or didn't know well, especially in situations where alcohol was involved. No matter what anyone says here, there is this perception and general acceptance that it's all right for a woman to hit, slap, grab, or otherwise touch a man in a way that a man could never get away with, and if a man complains it is a bad reflection on being a man. There is a double standard and goes back to what my grandmother beat into my head, "you don't know your own strength, never hit a woman." There is truth to that, women are more delicate creatures :wink2:, and please spare all of the uproars that they're not.

ETA. It's like the Army Ranger who had to catch his wife hitting him using a GoPro to get her arrested, who would've believed that an Army Ranger was a victim of violence perpetrated by a woman? He must be a whimp...


----------



## karole

Us Georgia Peaches don't take no sh$t


----------



## Faithful Wife

Cromer said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome the way you handled this. The woman was a complete ass hat if she thinks this is ok. Gross.
> 
> What do you think you would have done if it was a man who grabbed your ass?
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking more about this, it was a while ago, I remember that I didn't know who had done it, the smack was instinctive as I turned around. When I saw who it was, I also remember saying "next time ask my wife first".
> 
> I can remember quite a few times over the years where I was touched, grabbed, pulled, or unexpectedly hugged by women I didn't know or didn't know well, especially in situations where alcohol was involved. No matter what anyone says here, there is this perception and general acceptance that it's all right for a woman to hit, slap, grab, or otherwise touch a man in a way that a man could never get away with, and if a man complains it is a bad reflection on being a man. There is a double standard and goes back to what my grandmother beat into my head, "you don't know your own strength, never hit a woman." There is truth to that, women are more delicate creatures <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" ></a>, and please spare all of the uproars that they're not.
> 
> ETA. It's like the Army Ranger who had to catch his wife hitting him using a GoPro to get her arrested, who would've believed that an Army Ranger was a victim of violence perpetrated by a woman? He must be a whimp...
Click to expand...

I agree and have seen women grope and grab on men, usually at parties or in bars. I also agree this isn’t ok. When I was much younger, I used to love to reach out and touch an awesome looking bicep, even if I had just met or barely knew the guy. I thought I was paying him a compliment while at the same time was getting to cop a feel. But eventually I realized hey, I don’t really have any right to do this and the guy may not want it at all. Once you learn about consent it applies to everyone. It didn’t matter how I felt about hot biceps what does matter is the fact that unwanted touching is wrong. 

So now once in awhile in the right circumstances, I may be flirting with a guy and tell him he has nice biceps and ask him to flex for me. And if he does then I might ask him “mind if I give it a squeeze?” If he is hesitant at all I would not touch him even if he ultimately said yes. People usually show their true feelings about something if you are paying attention.

I think that men should firmly say “please don’t touch me without my consent” when it happens to them.


----------



## Cromer

Faithful Wife said:


> I agree and have seen women grope and grab on men, usually at parties or in bars. I also agree this isn’t ok. When I was much younger, I used to love to reach out and touch an awesome looking bicep, even if I had just met or barely knew the guy. I thought I was paying him a compliment while at the same time was getting to cop a feel. But eventually I realized hey, I don’t really have any right to do this and the guy may not want it at all. Once you learn about consent it applies to everyone. It didn’t matter how I felt about hot biceps what does matter is the fact that unwanted touching is wrong.
> 
> So now once in awhile in the right circumstances, I may be flirting with a guy and tell him he has nice biceps and ask him to flex for me. And if he does then I might ask him “mind if I give it a squeeze?” If he is hesitant at all I would not touch him even if he ultimately said yes. People usually show their true feelings about something if you are paying attention.
> 
> *I think that men should firmly say “please don’t touch me without my consent” when it happens to them.*


I've had friends in the long ago past, in college and when I was a young officer, who would tell some drunk chick to quit touching them or whatever. Many times the woman involved would escalate the situation with her mouth, and even hit or slap. When that happens between guys, they will work it out the old-fashioned way. But when it is a chick, she gets a pretty big free pass. Not so much anymore, young men are quicker to cross the boundary back today, but many still have a high threshold when it comes to a woman. Although rather than stemming from any noble upbringing, it's more about the fear that he'll be disproportionately punished.

When I was teaching at the university, I dealt with a number of incidents where young women would be the first to verbally assault or hit a guy. They were always regretful, but to a one when I would ask "what if he'd hit you back" they would always say something like "a guy shouldn't hit a girl". Right or wrong, that's the attitude that they are acting on out there. *sigh*


----------



## just got it 55

Red Sonja said:


> Good for her, maybe this will teach the next ass-hat to think twice before he reaches out and touches a stranger.
> 
> I have had a similar thing happen to me … on the street in broad daylight FFS. Mine was a frontal breast grab (!). I used a method I was taught in Aikido class … grabbed the guys wrist with one hand and bent his hand back (ouch) with my other hand and kept bending until he went to the ground on his knees. He yelped and quickly apologized so he avoided my next move which would have been my knee under his chin. Instead I just twisted his arm around to his back, pushed him down and ran away.
> 
> There are all sorts of nasty things you can do to a grabby hand that hurt like hell and will immobilize idiots.


 @Red Sonja I always senced your were not to be ****ed with:laugh::laugh::laugh:

55


----------



## ConanHub

Faithful Wife said:


> I agree and have seen women grope and grab on men, usually at parties or in bars. I also agree this isn’t ok. When I was much younger, I used to love to reach out and touch an awesome looking bicep, even if I had just met or barely knew the guy. I thought I was paying him a compliment while at the same time was getting to cop a feel. But eventually I realized hey, I don’t really have any right to do this and the guy may not want it at all. Once you learn about consent it applies to everyone. It didn’t matter how I felt about hot biceps what does matter is the fact that unwanted touching is wrong.
> 
> So now once in awhile in the right circumstances, I may be flirting with a guy and tell him he has nice biceps and ask him to flex for me. And if he does then I might ask him “mind if I give it a squeeze?” If he is hesitant at all I would not touch him even if he ultimately said yes. People usually show their true feelings about something if you are paying attention.
> 
> I think that men should firmly say “please don’t touch me without my consent” when it happens to them.


LOL! I had a female doctor recently giving me an exam and she gave my bicep a little squeeze. It almost seemed an unconscious reaction on her part and I definitely wasn't offended. But I outweighed her by at least 80 lbs. My best friend's wife did the same thing to my chest but it was right in front of Mrs. Conan and we both thought it was funny.

Everything is definitely circumstantial. It might not be politically correct but I believe women get a little more leeway on this issue personally. Now women who aren't friends with my wife better watch their six when taking liberties. Mrs. Conan has a very healthy b1tch streak and knows when to use it!:wink2:


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Cromer said:


> I've had friends in the long ago past, in college and when I was a young officer, who would tell some drunk chick to quit touching them or whatever. Many times the woman involved would escalate the situation with her mouth, and even hit or slap. When that happens between guys, they will work it out the old-fashioned way. But when it is a chick, she gets a pretty big free pass. Not so much anymore, young men are quicker to cross the boundary back today, but many still have a high threshold when it comes to a woman. Although rather than stemming from any noble upbringing, it's more about the fear that he'll be disproportionately punished.
> 
> When I was teaching at the university, I dealt with a number of incidents where young women would be the first to verbally assault or hit a guy. They were always regretful, but to a one when I would ask "what if he'd hit you back" they would always say something like "a guy shouldn't hit a girl". Right or wrong, that's the attitude that they are acting on out there. *sigh*


This is exactly the stuff I see, and have experience personally.


----------



## frustratedinphx

Andy1001 said:


> I was in a bar in London one night and I was talking to an Australian girl.There were a lot of military personal there,US,British and Aussie,I had went in with my brother who is career military.
> 
> A drunk English guy groped the girl I was talking to and then turned and laughed with his friends,I was just about to tear into him when she hit him.I heard his nose break and he fell to the ground with blood pumping out of him.Then he started crying.
> 
> His two friends started remonstrating with the Aussie but she called them a pair of pussies and told them come outside if they had the guts.Neither of them were brave enough.
> 
> She was a self defense instructor with the Australian defense force.
> 
> She didn’t need me or anyone else to look after her.




 Amen for women who don’t need men to handle their biz for them. Taking self-defense class on Tues. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

RoseAglow said:


> @faithfulwife, I think @Cromer's quote is the dividing line between the sexes on this one.
> 
> 
> @Cromer, I agree with FW that the lady at the wedding was very rude! I think you handled it as well as anyone could; from your other posts, you seem to have a quick wit and can respond to difficult situations with humor, which is awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to downplay the "Ick" factor of that lady's overreach; at the same time, this seems to be the extent of most men's experiences with unwanted advances. That is to say, it's usually a one-off and there is usually no chance of any harm coming from it, as it's almost always coming from a woman and only from men in jest.
> 
> 
> 
> Whereas many women, I'd guess most women truly, have had numerous unwanted gropes and worse. Most men don't experience erections pushed up against them in crowded concerts, trains, or just outright chest (akin to boob) and ass grabs. Men (thankfully!) don't often experience being sexually felt up by other men who are bigger and stronger.
> 
> 
> 
> For this reason, I think there is a difference between how men and women experience those kind of sexual gropes, to the extent that men experience at all. It is a prelude to a threat or an outright threat for most women.
> 
> 
> 
> Playing the "what if" gender game...
> 
> 
> 
> What if the waitress hadn't pushed back, and just stayed quiet, and saw that guy when she was leaving late at night in the parking lot? She should be nervous? If that guy, who was waiting for her, attacked her, what do you think the result would be?.
> 
> 
> 
> What if the waitress was instead a waiter, and that guy grabbed his ass? What if the waiter was leaving late at night and saw that guy waiting for him in the parking lot. If that guy attacked the waiter, what do you think the result would be?
> 
> 
> 
> What if the waitress was instead a waiter, and it was a woman and not a man who grabbed his ass. What if the waiter was leaving late at night and saw that lady waiting for him in the parking lot? If the woman attacked him, what do you think the result would be?
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, let's go back to the waitress. Let's say that it was a woman instead of a man who grabbed her ass. What if the waitress was leaving late at night and saw that lady waiting for her in the parking log. If the woman attacked the waitress, what would be the result?
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously no one knows what the result would be in any of the situations, but we can hedge some bets. Assuming that no one in any of the scenarios had a weapon, I think it is a safe bet that the man and woman facing the male assailant would be at the highest risk of sexual assault and physical injury, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Yet, how many men, vs women, have been in that kind of a situation, or something like it, where they were concerned about being sexually harmed from another man? By the stats, between 50-75% of women have had that experience. To our current knowledge, that number is a lot lower (but not near 0!) for men. I think those men who are brave enough to speak out (thinking Brandon Fraiser, the boys from Penn State, the boys in the Catholic Church) would also be supported.
> 
> 
> 
> If the video had shown a male waiter pushing away a male customer who grabbed his ass, I'd like to think that the male would also be getting kudos!
> 
> 
> 
> All that said, I actually do agree with @chillymorn to an extent. I think he was referring to a recent situation on a singing or talent show, like The Voice or America's Got Talent or something similar. A woman judge loved one of the young man's performances and grabbed his butt on national TV. The young man was embarrassed and later said that it was an unwelcome grab.
> 
> 
> 
> I saw a clip of it on FB or twitter or something and it made me cringe. I felt horribly for him. In my eyes, it was very much like how any other woman would feel if the genders were switched and it was a young woman who had her ass grabbed on national TV by a male judge.
> 
> 
> 
> There were a lot - A LOT!!- of women who blew it off. There were men and women who questioned the young man's sexuality, because who wouldn't want a beautiful woman to grab his butt? It was a horrible situation for that young man. While the woman judge did get a lot of blow-back, and I think apologized to the young man, the consequences would have been much more severe if the genders were reversed.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, should a man physically fight back against a woman who grabbed his ass, like the lady judge did on national TV? My answer here is No. But neither should a woman on national TV physically fight back. There is no real danger of further assault, IMO. To me this is what would determine whether/when it is appropriate to physically fight back.



I don’t think anyone should use physical force to ‘fight back’ unless it is unavoidable or life is in danger. This creates a more dangerous situation.

I think these types of videos - while many get a good laugh out of them and a lot of them go viral (most of them are fake as well) - actually are quite dangerous; you never know what psycho is grabbing you and what he will do next when provoked more so the best course of action is get witnesses and report him to police if it’s assault but NOT start a physical fight yourself, if at all avoidable.

Don’t understand the outrage in this thread or what’s so special about this video: unless messages got deleted, I haven’t heard anyone actually condoning this type of behaviour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

BioFury said:


> There are very few normal women in positions of power, or in a position to have their message heard. Same with men. The propaganda that is constantly being spread is shaping our youth, and therefore shaping the future.






BioFury said:


> I think it comes up because the leftist, and sometimes feminist (but really just minority victim mentality), ideal is in everyone's faces all the time.



I take offense to both of these statements. Not wanting to be groped is a “human thing”. Unwanted touch is just that- unwanted. Don’t justify or defend it.

As for “the very few normal women in positions of power”, that’s not by accident... would the “normal” ones exclude the feminazis you referenced. The ones brave or loud enough to be heard? Did you know women are more likely to be educated & qualified, but still are underrepresented at most power tables? Please contemplate that.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Post #7 is where it started. I dont see anything wrong with it either. But I guess he's said stuff in the past that is more anti woman. So it was taken as a whataboutism and thus taken offense to by some women. Which doesn't really surprise me anymore in 2018.


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Post #7 is where it started. I dont see anything wrong with it either. But I guess he's said stuff in the past that is more anti woman. So it was taken as a whataboutism and thus taken offense to by some women. Which doesn't really surprise me anymore in 2018.



I think it started before that, with Buffy the Vampire Layer.
The show was so popular at the time even though it gave women/girls completely unrealistic and dangerous ideas what to do in an escalated situation with a ‘male vampire’. 
Men are just so...gross and anyone who, god forbid, draws parallels with the opposite sex should be shot 🤦🏼*♂


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

The part that bugs me is a whataboutism argued for the side of women is it's taken seriously, and is seen as highlighting where women are slighted. Which is fine. However, for men, its taken as an attack on women by men. That any thought men could have negative aspects in their lives due to women is seen as men's faults to begin with, or trying to somehow suggest men don't care about women's issues if we point out our own. Or as a justified response, that men deserve it anyway for the wrongs that women have and do suffer due to ****ty men.

The other part is a lot of women will argue men and women are no different so long as it suits them. However, as soon as an issue like this comes up, they are back to saying men and women are different and should be treated as such. So I tend to see a lot of cherry picking going on as to when men and women are the exact same and "gender is a social construct" and all that, as well as "men and women are inherently different for many reasons." These two items seem to be interchangeable depending on the circumstances women are trying to argue. 

Generally speaking of course ladies :smile2:


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The part that bugs me is a whataboutism argued for the side of women is it's taken seriously, and is seen as highlighting where women are slighted. Which is fine. However, for men, its taken as an attack on women by men. That any thought men could have negative aspects in their lives due to women is seen as men's faults to begin with, or trying to somehow suggest men don't care about women's issues if we point out our own. Or as a justified response, that men deserve it anyway for the wrongs that women have and do suffer due to ****ty men.
> 
> The other part is a lot of women will argue men and women are no different so long as it suits them. However, as soon as an issue like this comes up, they are back to saying men and women are different and should be treated as such. So I tend to see a lot of cherry picking going on as to when men and women are the exact same and "gender is a social construct" and all that, as well as "men and women are inherently different for many reasons." These two items seem to be interchangeable depending on the circumstances women are trying to argue.
> 
> Generally speaking of course ladies :smile2:




Yeah it’s mostly all a load of b*ll*cks. (Or ovaries?). Most women I have in my life are fed up with it more than the men (who are mostly confused). 
I think people should take a chill pill and treat each other with respect. And stop projecting.
And criminal behaviour should be eradicated.
Nothing to kill or die for...no religion and no hell...
I can hear ‘Imagine’ Song being played in the background so this may have influenced what i have written...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

inmyprime said:


> Yeah it’s mostly all a load of b*ll*cks. (Or ovaries?). Most women I have in my life are fed up with it more than the men (who are mostly confused).
> I think people should take a chill pill and treat each other with respect. And stop projecting.
> And criminal behaviour should be eradicated.
> Nothing to kill or die for...no religion and no hell...
> I can hear ‘Imagine’ Song being played in the background so this may have influenced what i have written...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I agree. If more people would take what you said to heart, there’d be no thread here. We’re starting the process with discussion & debate. It wasn’t even on the table 1-2 years ago.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Luminous

Andy1001 said:


> I’m thirty four years old and started learning Karate when I was ten. A few years later I started learning aikido. I used to teach kickboxing but I don’t have time now.
> When I am discussing self defense with my female customers I always emphasize two things,eyes and balls.
> Hit any man in the balls and he will stop whatever he is doing for long enough for you to get away.A finger in the eyes,a spray of perfume or even deodorant will give you time to run.
> If someone grabs you from behind,lean forward then throw your head back as hard as you can.Your skull is a lot harder than his nose.If you have high heels then stamp on his foot as hard as you can.
> These are not fighting moves they are designed for to give you enough time to run.


Whilst your recommendations are logical, the one thing that people do not take into account are the effects of adrenaline, and how it affects your ability to bring forth any skills that have not been practiced under duress. 

It is the reason why you see so many street fights on YouTube where they basically use gross motor movements (I.e. swinging arms like a club etc.) Because that is all they have imprinted in them.


----------



## ConanHub

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Post #7 is where it started. I dont see anything wrong with it either. But I guess he's said stuff in the past that is more anti woman. So it was taken as a whataboutism and thus taken offense to by some women. Which doesn't really surprise me anymore in 2018.


He was off quite a bit this time and so is any clueless man that can't figure out the difference in physical threat between men and women.

There is absolutely no comparison unless a man has been sexually assaulted by a much larger and stronger man.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> I don’t think anyone should use physical force to ‘fight back’ unless it is unavoidable or life is in danger. This creates a more dangerous situation.
> 
> I think these types of videos - while many get a good laugh out of them and a lot of them go viral (most of them are fake as well) - actually are quite dangerous; you never know what psycho is grabbing you and what he will do next when provoked more so the best course of action is get witnesses and report him to police if it’s assault but NOT start a physical fight yourself, if at all avoidable.
> 
> Don’t understand the outrage in this thread or what’s so special about this video: unless messages got deleted, I haven’t heard anyone actually condoning this type of behaviour.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Too each their own. I'm for breaking their arm off personally. I do agree that if you are unable to break their arm off to use what means you have and always use your head.


----------



## BioFury

frustratedinphx said:


> I take offense to both of these statements. Not wanting to be groped is a “human thing”. Unwanted touch is just that- unwanted. Don’t justify or defend it.
> 
> As for “the very few normal women in positions of power”, that’s not by accident... would the “normal” ones exclude the feminazis you referenced. The ones brave or loud enough to be heard? Did you know women are more likely to be educated & qualified, but still are underrepresented at most power tables? Please contemplate that.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not sure what about my post is justifying or defending anything. I'm pretty sure I stated quite the opposite.

But this is the victim mentality I referred to. The idea that we live in some patriarchal society where women and every other minority are oppressed by the evil white men. One big reason there aren't many women at the top, is that you have to work 24/7 in order to stay there. And a lot women rightly judge that it isn't worth the effort. Money is the only thing those kinds of jobs can offer, and women typically marry above, or across, their socioeconomic line. They don't need the money, so why kill themselves working 70 hour weeks?

The question should be why there are any men willing to occupy those high positions, not why there aren't more women.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> I'm not trying to downplay the "Ick" factor of that lady's overreach; at the same time, this seems to be the extent of most men's experiences with unwanted advances. That is to say, it's usually a one-off and there is usually no chance of any harm coming from it, as it's almost always coming from a woman and only from men in jest.



I have a problem with an attitude that it's not so bad to violate a man's body because "no harm will come of it" or "it was in jest".

Because the next step is typically, "What's wrong with you, don't you like women?" or something like that. Basically, the attitude that because it's "not so bad", then there is something wrong with the guy objecting to it. 

I have a relative who worked as a caseworker for the State's Attorney, mostly in Domestic Violence cases. He told me that about 1/3 of the cases he processed were women who were charged with the violence, and he was astounded that a large percentage of those women changed were in disbelief that WOMEN could be charged. They thought that their violence was "not so bad."

Look, I think the guy in the video deserves a little ass-whupping by someone, because he's a jerk. In fact, back in the 1970s, (long, long before the "metoo" movement, in a different era) while waitressing at a pizza place during college, Mrs. Wolfman dumped a pizza on the lap of some jerk who was groping her. He deserved it too.

I just can't abide the attitude that violation of a man's body is "not so bad" because of the physical difference between men and women. These are not hypothetical "whatif" scenarios, as posters such as #Cromer and #BigLebowski have posted their actual experiences, and my relative saw this every day at work.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> If she weighed 125 and he weighed 220, I'm not sure it would be an exact comparison. However, if he took her groping hand, put it behind her back, and pressed her to the wall to restrain her, I woukdnt bat an eye. She basically assaulted him.



And I'll bet that when the police show up, HE'D be going to jail, even though he's the victim.


----------



## Luminous

ConanHub said:


> Too each their own. I'm for breaking their arm off personally. I do agree that if you are unable to break their arm off to use what means you have and always use your head.


Not sure what country you are in, but there is such a thing known as 'excessive force'. People are very quick to say 'i would kick his/her arse' in situations like this, yet when faced with the reality of such a scenario, it does not turn out how they believe it does. Reality is, is that cops WILL arrest not just them but YOU too. You may feel all high and righteous, but is being charged for a crime as bad or worse than what was perpetrated against you worth it?

Reading all the responses I appreciate the people (men and women) who can be level headed about this.


----------



## Wolfman1968

personofinterest said:


> That this even has to be said prices the Reddit incels and neckbeards are gaining ground. Lol


The Wolfman always has a neckbeard. 

What do you have against Wolfmen?


----------



## Andy1001

Luminous said:


> Whilst your recommendations are logical, the one thing that people do not take into account are the effects of adrenaline, and how it affects your ability to bring forth any skills that have not been practiced under duress.
> 
> It is the reason why you see so many street fights on YouTube where they basically use gross motor movements (I.e. swinging arms like a club etc.) Because that is all they have imprinted in them.


And that is the reason that people learning self defense or martial arts practice the same moves over and over until they become second nature.


----------



## Luminous

Andy1001 said:


> And that is the reason that people learning self defense or martial arts practice the same moves over and over until they become second nature.


It isn't about it being second nature, it is about it being instinctive. Second nature can stem from the conscious mind and under the effects of adrenaline, that part of the brain shuts down. There is a reason the phrase 'fight, flight, or freeze' exists. It describes the unconscious reaction of the mind to danger or threat and, depending on what has been imprinted prior, manifests itself. 

Next time you are with your fellow practitioners, I recommend inducing an adrenaline surge (e.g. get them to close their eyes, give them a quick sharp shove), perform your attack scenario, and then see what comes out, because that is what will happen in the street. They will also experience tunnel vision/hearing, and should it happen in the real world, the aftermath of an adrenaline dump (i.e. black out, emotional outpour/crying, lack of cohesive speech, the shakes etc).

I remember a quote from someone a while back, it goes like this: "every martial art is great, depending on what it was made for"


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Too each their own. I'm for breaking their arm off personally. I do agree that if you are unable to break their arm off to use what means you have and always use your head.




Yes but it doesn’t really teach them anything of lasting value; just that they shouldn’t be messing with YOU and I understand it is more satisfying to smash someone’s face in. They’ll find somebody weaker to grope. What you need to teach them is that there are consequences for groping ANYONE and that is best achieved through a criminal record.
Maybe it’s the difference between Europe/US: Someone breaks into your house in US, you shoot them. Someone does it over here (UK), you make them tea on the way to prison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Yes but it doesn’t really teach them anything of lasting value; just that they shouldn’t be messing with YOU and I understand it is more satisfying to smash someone’s face in. They’ll find somebody weaker to grope. What you need to teach them is that there are consequences for groping ANYONE and that is best achieved through a criminal record.
> Maybe it’s the difference between Europe/US: Someone breaks into your house in US, you shoot them. Someone does it over here (UK), you make them tea on the way to prison.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not forgetting the custard creams.


----------



## frustratedinphx

BioFury said:


> I'm not sure what about my post is justifying or defending anything. I'm pretty sure I stated quite the opposite.
> 
> 
> 
> But this is the victim mentality I referred to. The idea that we live in some patriarchal society where women and every other minority are oppressed by the evil white men. One big reason there aren't many women at the top, is that you have to work 24/7 in order to stay there. And a lot women rightly judge that it isn't worth the effort. Money is the only thing those kinds of jobs can offer, and women typically marry above, or across, their socioeconomic line. They don't need the money, so why kill themselves working 70 hour weeks?
> 
> 
> 
> The question should be why there are any men willing to occupy those high positions, not why there aren't more women.




It was the “leftist” “feminist” “minority victim mentality” ****. Conservative women, centrist women & leftist women are all violated equally. No one is checking party affiliation before groping. I’m a woman, minority & an immigrant. I worked my ass off to attend one of the best universities in the nation and have consistently made 6-figures each year for over a decade. But no man cares, especially if I reject him. Then I’m just a “*****”.

I don’t have a 9-5 job. I work 12hr days AND I make lunches, dinners, wipe booboos/boogers, correct homework & make it to PTA meetings, school plays, soccer games, tourneys, etc. while making healthy meals that are organic & responsibly sustained AND keeping my size 0 body fit, wrinkle-free & a smile plastered across my face. A high position job isn’t not “not worth the effort”, it’s impossible to do it ALL & the “mom stuff” we’re shunned for if we didn’t do it. 

I get 4-6hrs of sleep each night. If my husband pulled his weight better, I’d have time to make it to those damn board meetings. I have girlfriends with those jobs and THEIR husbands are making the sacrifice. Why? Someone has to. It’s too much for one person. When women in power are labeled “*****y”, it’s probably because they’re in this same boat, but no one cares. I’d love to see a man do it all WELL. 

I’m also no victim. My husband tried to physically intimidate me once. I grabbed him by his balls & I told him if he was dumb enough to hit me he’d better kill me because if I came to and he was around I’d get him or die trying. At 95# I assure you I know how to cause damage if I need to. I’m sure he got the message.  I think I’m entitled to a grope-free life. FTR- I think the groper has the problem if they have to resort to groping to get some action. Not my problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## chillymorn69

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Post #7 is where it started. I dont see anything wrong with it either. But I guess he's said stuff in the past that is more anti woman. So it was taken as a whataboutism and thus taken offense to by some women. Which doesn't really surprise me anymore in 2018.


Shes spreading her opinion on her interpitation of what I have said in the past!

Please form you own opinion of what I post.

Listen FW is the type of person who is imature when you make a statement she disagrees with she atacks you personally. 

This is a message board I post the coments to start dicussion. 


It seems in a world where toxic masclinity is even a term but mascline women are praised something is a miss.


And is occured to me if the sexes were switched then the public opinion would be different.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> Not forgetting the custard creams.


It would be rude not to!


----------



## Blondilocks

ConanHub said:


> LOL! I had a female doctor recently giving me an exam and she gave my bicep a little squeeze. It almost seemed an unconscious reaction on her part and I definitely wasn't offended. But I outweighed her by at least 80 lbs. My best friend's wife did the same thing to my chest but it was right in front of Mrs. Conan and we both thought it was funny.
> 
> Everything is definitely circumstantial. It might not be politically correct but I believe women get a little more leeway on this issue personally. Now women who aren't friends with my wife better watch their six when taking liberties. Mrs. Conan has a very healthy b1tch streak and knows when to use it!:wink2:


 @ConanHub, please stop letting these female doctors cop feels. At least ask them what they were checking for. Hold them accountable. You are not just a piece of meat! And, you are too damn nice for your own good.


----------



## Blondilocks

Honestly, I know this groping behavior goes on; but, I've never witnessed it much. Even as a people watcher. The only men (or women) who ever tried to cop a feel from me were dates and my MIL - she would occasionally pat my bottom and tell me I had a cute little tush.

Am glad the guy in Georgia landed in jail as it might persuade the offenders to reconsider their juvenile behavior.


----------



## ConanHub

Luminous said:


> Not sure what country you are in, but there is such a thing known as 'excessive force'. People are very quick to say 'i would kick his/her arse' in situations like this, yet when faced with the reality of such a scenario, it does not turn out how they believe it does. Reality is, is that cops WILL arrest not just them but YOU too. You may feel all high and righteous, but is being charged for a crime as bad or worse than what was perpetrated against you worth it?
> 
> Reading all the responses I appreciate the people (men and women) who can be level headed about this.


United States of America. I've been in plenty of situations and it turns out that people who sexually assault or otherwise assault someone tend not to call the police after you have put the hurt on them.

Now I have only been groped twice by men and one guy ended on the floor while the other had his wrist bent at an odd angle.

I am definitely barbaric concerning this issue, however, I appreciate @inmyprime for a different perspective. I think he has a point about pressing charges after the offender is whooped, while offering them tea of course.:wink2:


----------



## personofinterest

I think this is another topic where people bring their own experiences in. At 12 I was raped by a man who was bigger. At 14 and 15 I was repeatedly in molested by a family friend who was bigger, manipulative, and my dad's good friend (though according to another thread since it happened more than once I apparently consented - insert vomit emoji and eye roll)

I'm sure all the men on this thread taking the contrary view have experienced being assaulted by a woman who was bigger and stronger....

Again, I think it's fair to restrain and press charges against a woman who groped. But let's not let 4chan and Reddit try to convince us it's exactly the same.

BTW, I am a Republican, Christian, traditional wife who believes Ephesians 5. So spare me the feminist sound byte.


----------



## RoseAglow

Wolfman1968 said:


> I have a problem with an attitude that it's not so bad to violate a man's body because "no harm will come of it" or "it was in jest".
> 
> Because the next step is typically, "What's wrong with you, don't you like women?" or something like that. Basically, the attitude that because it's "not so bad", then there is something wrong with the guy objecting to it.....
> I just can't abide the attitude that violation of a man's body is "not so bad" because of the physical difference between men and women. These are not hypothetical "whatif" scenarios, as posters such as #Cromer and #BigLebowski have posted their actual experiences, and my relative saw this every day at work.


I think you misread my post.

I said that most men have only encountered gropes which didn't result in a threat- in jest, or from people who weren't likely to get anything more from them. I'm not saying it never happens to men- it does, for sure. 

I also specifically discussed the young men who was groped by a female judge and stated that she was very wrong to do so. I don't think that lady was threat to the man but it was wrong, it was not wanted. 
@ConanHub gave an example of being groped by men, when there was a chance of real harm, both times he was able to fend for himself. The man who groped him was just as wrong as the guy in the video who groped the waitress IMO.

My point is that the threat of real harm is greater for women than for men when it comes to sexual assault. 

I didn't say anything about domestic violence in my post; I tend to agree more with you and when I read someone post "I don't have anything to fear from my wife" I think that the poster is generally naive. While it's true that I could never win a 1:1 physical fight with my H, if he became a threat to me or my son, or if I just lost my mind and went psycho, I could harm him, given time. Any household is full of potential weapons- one of H's co-workers was harmed when his wife threw a toaster at him, gave him a concussion, IIRC. My H lives with me, sleeps with me, eats food that I have prepared. We have actual weapons as well.


----------



## BioFury

frustratedinphx said:


> It was the “leftist” “feminist” “minority victim mentality” ****. Conservative women, centrist women & leftist women are all violated equally. No one is checking party affiliation before groping. I’m a woman, minority & an immigrant. I worked my ass off to attend one of the best universities in the nation and have consistently made 6-figures each year for over a decade. But no man cares, especially if I reject him. Then I’m just a “*****”.
> 
> I don’t have a 9-5 job. I work 12hr days AND I make lunches, dinners, wipe booboos/boogers, correct homework & make it to PTA meetings, school plays, soccer games, tourneys, etc. while making healthy meals that are organic & responsibly sustained AND keeping my size 0 body fit, wrinkle-free & a smile plastered across my face. A high position job isn’t not “not worth the effort”, it’s impossible to do it ALL & the “mom stuff” we’re shunned for if we didn’t do it.
> 
> I get 4-6hrs of sleep each night. If my husband pulled his weight better, I’d have time to make it to those damn board meetings. I have girlfriends with those jobs and THEIR husbands are making the sacrifice. Why? Someone has to. It’s too much for one person. When women in power are labeled “*****y”, it’s probably because they’re in this same boat, but no one cares. I’d love to see a man do it all WELL.
> 
> I’m also no victim. My husband tried to physically intimidate me once. I grabbed him by his balls & I told him if he was dumb enough to hit me he’d better kill me because if I came to and he was around I’d get him or die trying. At 95# I assure you I know how to cause damage if I need to. I’m sure he got the message.  I think I’m entitled to a grope-free life. FTR- I think the groper has the problem if they have to resort to groping to get some action. Not my problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You probably are a... female dog, you at least sound that way in your post. Threatening to kill your husband is classic psycho female dog kind of stuff. But, people who are low in agreeableness tend to be more aggressive, and can be more successful in business as a result. So it makes sense.

If you like working 12 hr days and getting 4 hours of sleep, more power to you. If you can keep it up, you'll be able to outdistance a lot of people. Most women don't think it's worth it, when they don't need the money. Why spend 12 hours a day making some corporation richer, when you could spend it with your family. How you spend your days, is how you spend your life.


----------



## frustratedinphx

chillymorn69 said:


> Shes spreading her opinion on her interpitation of what I have said in the past!
> 
> 
> 
> Please form you own opinion of what I post.
> 
> 
> 
> Listen FW is the type of person who is imature when you make a statement she disagrees with she atacks you personally.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a message board I post the coments to start dicussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems in a world where toxic masclinity is even a term but mascline women are praised something is a miss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And is occured to me if the sexes were switched then the public opinion would be different.




Are you referring to me?? If so, I’d be FI, not FW. Let’s get a few things straight. I don’t know or recognize you. I come to this forum once every few months or years. Whatever past stuff you’re talking about is a non-issue bc I haven’t seen it or don’t remember it. I didn’t even respond to *your* posts. I’m only calling a spade a spade.

What you’re calling “toxic masculinity” is a woman (me) exerting her own will- to be heard or be left in peace. Would it be better if I wore my shortest skirt & stilettos (for some that’s the start of a porno)? I don’t see any praise in this thread except for the waitress who fought back. She deserves it.

*Anyone* (including you) has the right to opt out of being touched. “Unwanted” touch is subjective. We also have the right to defend ourselves with all legal means when we feel threatened. Period. I think this sentiment was echoed on both sides already. If you believe anything else, ask yourself why.

If you’re starting a discussion, be open to the responses. They may not match your inner dialogue. By sharing perspectives, maybe each participant can have new/different understanding of the topic. FTR- who’s attacking who here?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## frustratedinphx

BioFury said:


> You probably are a... female dog, you at least sound that way in your post. Threatening to kill your husband is classic psycho female dog kind of stuff. But, people who are low in agreeableness tend to be more aggressive, and can be more successful in business as a result. So it makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> If you like working 12 hr days and getting 4 hours of sleep, more power to you. If you can keep it up, you'll be able to outdistance a lot of people. Most women don't think it's worth it, when they don't need the money. Why spend 12 hours a day making some corporation richer, when you could spend it with your family. How you spend your days, is how you spend your life.




Wow name calling. My husband threatened me and I fought back. You missed that. I’m not looking to fight anyone, but I’m not backing down. FTR- I’ve owned my own business for 14yrs. Got tired of making other people rich. I expect nothing from no one & like it that way.

You realize you’re backtracking. Before women couldn’t handle the hard work & it wasn’t “worth it”. Now I’m a ***** bc I do work hard (yes- it’s so worth it) and I should spend my day with my family. My husband doesn’t/didn’t appreciate all that I do for my family either. Thanks for tying it up with a bow for me. You’re proof women can’t have it all, not even the right to defend themselves- literally or figuratively. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## BioFury

frustratedinphx said:


> Wow name calling. My husband threatened me and I fought back. You missed that. I’m not looking to fight anyone, but I’m not backing down. FTR- I’ve owned my own business for 14yrs. Got tired of making other people rich. I expect nothing from no one & like it that way.
> 
> You realize you’re backtracking. Before women couldn’t handle the hard work & it wasn’t “worth it”. Now I’m a ***** bc I do work hard (yes- it’s so worth it) and I should spend my day with my family. My husband doesn’t/didn’t appreciate all that I do for my family either. Thanks for tying it up with a bow for me. You’re proof women can’t have it all, not even the right to defend themselves- literally or figuratively.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


So, you think it's acceptable behavior for someone to threaten to kill one of their family members because they physically intimidated them? Your husband's behavior was unacceptable, but that doesn't excuse you threatening to murder him.

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never said they couldn't handle it, I said they chose not to. And I never called you anything because you work hard. I said you were psycho because you threatened to murder your husband.


----------



## Blondilocks

It looks like a course on reading comprehension would be helpful to a few posters.

No one threatened to kill their husband - 'get him' could cover a lot of ground. No name-calling. PERIOD.

Chilly was referring to the original FW who started this thread.

Y'all have a nice Sunday and play nicely.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Blondilocks said:


> It looks like a course on reading comprehension would be helpful to a few posters.
> 
> Y'all have a nice Sunday and play nicely.


No U


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> It looks like a course on reading comprehension would be helpful to a few posters.
> 
> *No one threatened to kill their husband - 'get him' could cover a lot of ground.* No name-calling. PERIOD.
> 
> Chilly was referring to the original FW who started this thread.
> 
> Y'all have a nice Sunday and play nicely.


It _could _cover a lot of ground, but it didn't. Hence her statement that he better kill her, cause if he didn't, she'd "get him" or die trying. The entire context of the statement was death and murder. Aside from the fact that had I misunderstood her, she wouldn't have missed the chance to correct me when she replied.

So I'd guess my reading comprehension is fine.

But yes, I apologize, it was my mistake, I won't call her names 0


----------



## Blondilocks

BioFury said:


> It _could _cover a lot of ground, but it didn't. Hence her statement that he better kill her, cause if he didn't, she'd "get him" or die trying. The entire context of the statement was death and murder. Aside from the fact that had I misunderstood her, she wouldn't have missed the chance to correct me when she replied.
> 
> So I'd guess my reading comprehension is fine.
> 
> But yes, I apologize, it was my mistake, I won't call her names 0


Since you don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt; consider what a husband would do if his 95 lb wife threatened to beat him up. Do you think it would deter him from knocking her around? Or, would he more likely get pissed and then start the beating. It was bluster on her part, but she got the seriousness of the situation across to him.


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> Since you don't want to give her the benefit of the doubt; consider what a husband would do if his 95 lb wife threatened to beat him up. Do you think it would deter him from knocking her around? Or, would he more likely get pissed and then start the beating. It was bluster on her part, but she got the seriousness of the situation across to him.


Threatening someone, especially one's spouse, with death, or even just physical violence, is not appropriate. "I'm going to beat you up", and "I'm going to kill you" are 3rd world communication techniques that she was unfortunately able to bring to the United States.


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> I think you misread my post.
> 
> I said that most men have only encountered gropes which didn't result in a threat- in jest, or from people who weren't likely to get anything more from them. I'm not saying it never happens to men- it does, for sure.
> 
> I also specifically discussed the young men who was groped by a female judge and stated that she was very wrong to do so. I don't think that lady was threat to the man but it was wrong, it was not wanted.
> 
> @ConanHub gave an example of being groped by men, when there was a chance of real harm, both times he was able to fend for himself. The man who groped him was just as wrong as the guy in the video who groped the waitress IMO.
> 
> My point is that the threat of real harm is greater for women than for men when it comes to sexual assault.
> 
> I didn't say anything about domestic violence in my post; I tend to agree more with you and when I read someone post "I don't have anything to fear from my wife" I think that the poster is generally naive. While it's true that I could never win a 1:1 physical fight with my H, if he became a threat to me or my son, or if I just lost my mind and went psycho, I could harm him, given time. Any household is full of potential weapons- one of H's co-workers was harmed when his wife threw a toaster at him, gave him a concussion, IIRC. My H lives with me, sleeps with me, eats food that I have prepared. We have actual weapons as well.


No, I didn't misread your post, but there are implications in your post and regarding the OP video in particular that flow from your position in your post which I think you overlook.

Look, I understand that on an emotional level, everyone liked to see the guy get a beat down, because the vast majority of the population is sick of this kind of behavior. Women in particular are fed up with dealing with jerks like this, and in many situations have legitimate safety concerns. In certain situations, they are also legitimately worried about escalation to rape or other more grievous injury. Likewise, there are many men who, just limiting the discussion to women victims, are angered because such things have happened to women they care about or even to women in general. There is no debate here on that from me. As I have already stated, Mrs. Wolfman has been a victim of groping in the past, so I know where all this is coming from.

However, there is the issue of, as #Luminous has pointed out, what is a "proportional response"? There is no doubt that in the OP's video that the woman was violated. Does that justify throwing the perpetrator to the floor? (What if he later alleges that he has a rotator cuff injury, fractured vertebrate, whiplash, etc. from this?) It's it something along the lines of booby-trapping your car against car thieves? The law has already said that is excessive, as the penalty for car theft is not being killed or maimed. In a like manner, in the last year or two I remember seeing a guy get prosecuted because a thief reached into his car to grab some stuff, got his arm caught, and the driver kept driving intentionally. In these cases, these were not proportional responses, nor were they necessary for self-defense.

In the OP's video, the guy is walking away after a backhanded grope. There is no way that it can be argued that it was necessary to stop the assault, because he was already leaving the scene. In short, he was just getting a physical punishment because of the violation he perpetrated. And the posters are cheering this on, because they are sick of a-holes this this groper. However, in a way, cheering it on, is more a vicarious emotional release of anger than it is good law or even smart behavior. It's more akin to a crime-weary movie audience cheering Charles Bronson as he goes on a vigilante killing spree against the criminals who hurt his family in the film. It's certainly understandable, but not necessarily smart or legal.

And because it's not good law or even smart behavior, posters--including your post---go through a lot of mental gymnastics to justify this revenge-level response. The main argument put forward is that women are more physically threatened by men than vice-versa. While that is typically true, I don't see how that statement enters into this video at all. After the grope, the perpetrator is walking away, not threatening. And as far as waiting in the parking lot, as you posted, it sure seems to me that a pissed off man who has been thrown by woman is much more likely to be waiting in the parking lot to even the score than a sneaky backhanded pervert groper who is there with his wife and kids. In fact, I'll bet the guys most likely to be waiting in the parking lot would be the stalker-type who has been repeatedly asking the waitress for her phone number and being rejected. I don't think you would advocate that waitresses start physically assaulting guys who are verbally persistent, but make no physical contact (at least I hope you wouldn't).

So, because, as I see it, the kind of throwing to the floor that the waitress performed in the video does nothing to REALLY either stop the assault (which is already over) or actually increase her personal safety "in the parking lot", it's really just old-fashioned retaliation. But when other posters such as @TheDudeLebowski or @Cromer post about their experience as victims of female gropers, there is no support for a physical retaliation against the female perpetrator. Only verbal retaliation/shaming is deemed appropriate (except by @personofinterest who advocated bending the females hand back). So, since, as I posted above, a physical retaliation doesn't REALLY do anything to ensure the waitresses safety (it might in other situations, but not in one like this), I really view the physical difference argument as it pertains to this video as a fig leaf argument to justify the beat-down that posters feel the perpetrator deserves.

The flip side of the mental gymnastics is that, by its very nature, since it is relying on the physical differences between men and women, by its very nature it minimizes the violation to the men. However, I see the loss of dignity by the victim to be the same, the loss of control of their own body/personhood to be the same, and the sense of entitlement by the perpetrator to violate another person's body to be the same. Furthermore, to put so much emphasis on the size difference between men and women also diminishes the injury women can do to men. My relative's experience in working domestic violence was only brought up as an example of the sense of entitlement many women have to commit physical acts of abuse against men, feeling that the physical difference gives them a free pass. But, as you have pointed out with your husband's acquaintace receiving a concussion at the hands of a woman, as well as other stories I am sure I, and others, can provide (such as a physician I know who was severely beaten by his wife, including a ruptured ear drum, not to mention the poster in this very thread to posted about the female Australian self-defense trainer who beat up a groper in a bar), the physical size difference is NOT necessarily always the determining issue.

So, no, I don't think I misread your post. However, I believe I am following through with the implications of your post, which are not so benign once you think it through.


----------



## RoseAglow

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, I didn't misread your post, but there are implications in your post and regarding the OP video in particular that flow from your position in your post which I think you overlook.
> 
> Look, I understand that on an emotional level, everyone liked to see the guy get a beat down, because the vast majority of the population is sick of this kind of behavior. Women in particular are fed up with dealing with jerks like this, and in many situations have legitimate safety concerns. In certain situations, they are also legitimately worried about escalation to rape or other more grievous injury. Likewise, there are many men who, just limiting the discussion to women victims, are angered because such things have happened to women they care about or even to women in general. There is no debate here on that from me. As I have already stated, Mrs. Wolfman has been a victim of groping in the past, so I know where all this is coming from.
> 
> However, there is the issue of, as #Luminous has pointed out, what is a "proportional response"? There is no doubt that in the OP's video that the woman was violated. Does that justify throwing the perpetrator to the floor? (What if he later alleges that he has a rotator cuff injury, fractured vertebrate, whiplash, etc. from this?) It's it something along the lines of booby-trapping your car against car thieves? The law has already said that is excessive, as the penalty for car theft is not being killed or maimed. In a like manner, in the last year or two I remember seeing a guy get prosecuted because a thief reached into his car to grab some stuff, got his arm caught, and the driver kept driving intentionally. In these cases, these were not proportional responses, nor were they necessary for self-defense.
> 
> In the OP's video, the guy is walking away after a backhanded grope. There is no way that it can be argued that it was necessary to stop the assault, because he was already leaving the scene. In short, he was just getting a physical punishment because of the violation he perpetrated. And the posters are cheering this on, because they are sick of a-holes this this groper. However, in a way, cheering it on, is more a vicarious emotional release of anger than it is good law or even smart behavior. It's more akin to a crime-weary movie audience cheering Charles Bronson as he goes on a vigilante killing spree against the criminals who hurt his family in the film. It's certainly understandable, but not necessarily smart or legal.
> 
> And because it's not good law or even smart behavior, posters--including your post---go through a lot of mental gymnastics to justify this revenge-level response. The main argument put forward is that women are more physically threatened by men than vice-versa. While that is typically true, I don't see how that statement enters into this video at all. After the grope, the perpetrator is walking away, not threatening. And as far as waiting in the parking lot, as you posted, it sure seems to me that a pissed off man who has been thrown by woman is much more likely to be waiting in the parking lot to even the score than a sneaky backhanded pervert groper who is there with his wife and kids. In fact, I'll bet the guys most likely to be waiting in the parking lot would be the stalker-type who has been repeatedly asking the waitress for her phone number and being rejected. I don't think you would advocate that waitresses start physically assaulting guys who are verbally persistent, but make no physical contact (at least I hope you wouldn't).
> 
> So, because, as I see it, the kind of throwing to the floor that the waitress performed in the video does nothing to REALLY either stop the assault (which is already over) or actually increase her personal safety "in the parking lot", it's really just old-fashioned retaliation. But when other posters such as @TheDudeLebowski or @Cromer post about their experience as victims of female gropers, there is no support for a physical retaliation against the female perpetrator. Only verbal retaliation/shaming is deemed appropriate (except by @personofinterest who advocated bending the females hand back). So, since, as I posted above, a physical retaliation doesn't REALLY do anything to ensure the waitresses safety (it might in other situations, but not in one like this), I really view the physical difference argument as it pertains to this video as a fig leaf argument to justify the beat-down that posters feel the perpetrator deserves.
> 
> The flip side of the mental gymnastics is that, by its very nature, since it is relying on the physical differences between men and women, by its very nature it minimizes the violation to the men. However, I see the loss of dignity by the victim to be the same, the loss of control of their own body/personhood to be the same, and the sense of entitlement by the perpetrator to violate another person's body to be the same. Furthermore, to put so much emphasis on the size difference between men and women also diminishes the injury women can do to men. My relative's experience in working domestic violence was only brought up as an example of the sense of entitlement many women have to commit physical acts of abuse against men, feeling that the physical difference gives them a free pass. But, as you have pointed out with your husband's acquaintace receiving a concussion at the hands of a woman, as well as other stories I am sure I, and others, can provide (such as a physician I know who was severely beaten by his wife, including a ruptured ear drum, not to mention the poster in this very thread to posted about the female Australian self-defense trainer who beat up a groper in a bar), the physical size difference is NOT necessarily always the determining issue.
> 
> So, no, I don't think I misread your post. However, I believe I am following through with the implications of your post, which are not so benign once you think it through.


You still seem to be missing the point of my posts. I think it's interesting that I am saying it is not OK for women to grope men, but you seem to think I am giving women a free pass. 

Do you feel that the Cooper's woman friend, grabbing Cooper's ass in front her husband, was just as threatening as that guy in the video?

From your post, you seem to feel that the guy in the video was actually no threat to the waitress and her physical reaction was not appropriate.

While personally I don't have any self-defense training to pull that kind of action off, I don't have an issue with what she did. I do feel that a guy who is willing to grab a woman's ass out of nowhere like that is a threat.

You make an assumption that is dangerous for women to make, which is that the guy would have just copped a feel, then left. I am here to tell you that often, the grab is just the first move. If that guy hadn't been brought away from the cops, the waitress would have been well-advised to walk to her car with a buddy after hours, or have someone watching her. 

In the same way that I think what she did was appropriate, I feel that @ConanHub was appropriate when he physically reacted to men who grabbed him. 


Again, putting it as plainly as I can, women are at great risk of physical and sexual assault from men than vice versa. This isn't saying that men have no risk, it is saying that they have less risk. It's pretty basic "gymnastics"/

You clearly feel differently. Such is life, especially TAM life.


----------



## chillymorn69

frustratedinphx said:


> Are you referring to me?? If so, I’d be FI, not FW. Let’s get a few things straight. I don’t know or recognize you. I come to this forum once every few months or years. Whatever past stuff you’re talking about is a non-issue bc I haven’t seen it or don’t remember it. I didn’t even respond to *your* posts. I’m only calling a spade a spade.
> 
> What you’re calling “toxic masculinity” is a woman (me) exerting her own will- to be heard or be left in peace. Would it be better if I wore my shortest skirt & stilettos (for some that’s the start of a porno)? I don’t see any praise in this thread except for the waitress who fought back. She deserves it.
> 
> *Anyone* (including you) has the right to opt out of being touched. “Unwanted” touch is subjective. We also have the right to defend ourselves with all legal means when we feel threatened. Period. I think this sentiment was echoed on both sides already. If you believe anything else, ask yourself why.
> 
> If you’re starting a discussion, be open to the responses. They may not match your inner dialogue. By sharing perspectives, maybe each participant can have new/different understanding of the topic. FTR- who’s attacking who here?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


No I wasn't referring to you!


----------



## ConanHub

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, I didn't misread your post, but there are implications in your post and regarding the OP video in particular that flow from your position in your post which I think you overlook.
> 
> Look, I understand that on an emotional level, everyone liked to see the guy get a beat down, because the vast majority of the population is sick of this kind of behavior. Women in particular are fed up with dealing with jerks like this, and in many situations have legitimate safety concerns. In certain situations, they are also legitimately worried about escalation to rape or other more grievous injury. Likewise, there are many men who, just limiting the discussion to women victims, are angered because such things have happened to women they care about or even to women in general. There is no debate here on that from me. As I have already stated, Mrs. Wolfman has been a victim of groping in the past, so I know where all this is coming from.
> 
> However, there is the issue of, as #Luminous has pointed out, what is a "proportional response"? There is no doubt that in the OP's video that the woman was violated. Does that justify throwing the perpetrator to the floor? (What if he later alleges that he has a rotator cuff injury, fractured vertebrate, whiplash, etc. from this?) It's it something along the lines of booby-trapping your car against car thieves? The law has already said that is excessive, as the penalty for car theft is not being killed or maimed. In a like manner, in the last year or two I remember seeing a guy get prosecuted because a thief reached into his car to grab some stuff, got his arm caught, and the driver kept driving intentionally. In these cases, these were not proportional responses, nor were they necessary for self-defense.
> 
> In the OP's video, the guy is walking away after a backhanded grope. There is no way that it can be argued that it was necessary to stop the assault, because he was already leaving the scene. In short, he was just getting a physical punishment because of the violation he perpetrated. And the posters are cheering this on, because they are sick of a-holes this this groper. However, in a way, cheering it on, is more a vicarious emotional release of anger than it is good law or even smart behavior. It's more akin to a crime-weary movie audience cheering Charles Bronson as he goes on a vigilante killing spree against the criminals who hurt his family in the film. It's certainly understandable, but not necessarily smart or legal.
> 
> And because it's not good law or even smart behavior, posters--including your post---go through a lot of mental gymnastics to justify this revenge-level response. The main argument put forward is that women are more physically threatened by men than vice-versa. While that is typically true, I don't see how that statement enters into this video at all. After the grope, the perpetrator is walking away, not threatening. And as far as waiting in the parking lot, as you posted, it sure seems to me that a pissed off man who has been thrown by woman is much more likely to be waiting in the parking lot to even the score than a sneaky backhanded pervert groper who is there with his wife and kids. In fact, I'll bet the guys most likely to be waiting in the parking lot would be the stalker-type who has been repeatedly asking the waitress for her phone number and being rejected. I don't think you would advocate that waitresses start physically assaulting guys who are verbally persistent, but make no physical contact (at least I hope you wouldn't).
> 
> So, because, as I see it, the kind of throwing to the floor that the waitress performed in the video does nothing to REALLY either stop the assault (which is already over) or actually increase her personal safety "in the parking lot", it's really just old-fashioned retaliation. But when other posters such as @TheDudeLebowski or @Cromer post about their experience as victims of female gropers, there is no support for a physical retaliation against the female perpetrator. Only verbal retaliation/shaming is deemed appropriate (except by @personofinterest who advocated bending the females hand back). So, since, as I posted above, a physical retaliation doesn't REALLY do anything to ensure the waitresses safety (it might in other situations, but not in one like this), I really view the physical difference argument as it pertains to this video as a fig leaf argument to justify the beat-down that posters feel the perpetrator deserves.
> 
> The flip side of the mental gymnastics is that, by its very nature, since it is relying on the physical differences between men and women, by its very nature it minimizes the violation to the men. However, I see the loss of dignity by the victim to be the same, the loss of control of their own body/personhood to be the same, and the sense of entitlement by the perpetrator to violate another person's body to be the same. Furthermore, to put so much emphasis on the size difference between men and women also diminishes the injury women can do to men. My relative's experience in working domestic violence was only brought up as an example of the sense of entitlement many women have to commit physical acts of abuse against men, feeling that the physical difference gives them a free pass. But, as you have pointed out with your husband's acquaintace receiving a concussion at the hands of a woman, as well as other stories I am sure I, and others, can provide (such as a physician I know who was severely beaten by his wife, including a ruptured ear drum, not to mention the poster in this very thread to posted about the female Australian self-defense trainer who beat up a groper in a bar), the physical size difference is NOT necessarily always the determining issue.
> 
> So, no, I don't think I misread your post. However, I believe I am following through with the implications of your post, which are not so benign once you think it through.


Tortured logic. I've lived through miles of this ****.

It isn't theoretical to me.

I do believe that offenders need prosecuted but the only way to stop a ****ing bad guy is to ****ing stop him.

Sexually assaulting someone, even an ass grab, causes harm and anyone that says otherwise can pony up their wives and daughters so I can molest them in front of their families. Don't worry. I will only be grabbing their behinds. No actual harm, right?

Stupid goddamned arguments here.

I would **** up that idiots world if he grabbed Mrs. Conan's shapely rear. Before anyone else goes off about theoretical bull ****, Mrs. Conan was sexually assaulted at work while we were dating. It didn't get too far and she shoved the asshat off before it got serious.

I did something that won't be related here. He apologized to her the next day on his knees, begging her forgiveness in front of many witnesses.

I've had two drunken women throw themselves at me in the same work environment and they didn't get anywhere and I wasn't near as threatened as my wife.

I'm amazed at the arguments being made by the "men"? of TAM here?


----------



## Wolfman1968

RoseAglow said:


> You still seem to be missing the point of my posts. *I think it's interesting that I am saying it is not OK for women to grope men, but you seem to think I am giving women a free pass. *
> 
> Do you feel that the Cooper's woman friend, grabbing Cooper's ass in front her husband, was just as threatening as that guy in the video?
> 
> From your post, you seem to feel that the guy in the video was actually no threat to the waitress and her physical reaction was not appropriate.
> 
> While personally I don't have any self-defense training to pull that kind of action off, I don't have an issue with what she did. I do feel that a guy who is willing to grab a woman's ass out of nowhere like that is a threat.
> 
> You make an assumption that is dangerous for women to make, which is that the guy would have just copped a feel, then left. I am here to tell you that often, the grab is just the first move. If that guy hadn't been brought away from the cops, the waitress would have been well-advised to walk to her car with a buddy after hours, or have someone watching her.
> 
> In the same way that I think what she did was appropriate, I feel that @ConanHub was appropriate when he physically reacted to men who grabbed him.
> 
> 
> Again, putting it as plainly as I can, women are at great risk of physical and sexual assault from men than vice versa. This isn't saying that men have no risk, it is saying that they have less risk. It's pretty basic "gymnastics"/
> 
> You clearly feel differently. Such is life, especially TAM life.


No, I didn't say you give women a free pass. I am saying you, and others, view it as a lesser offense, in a large part because you tie it in with a physical threat. 

I separate the violation and the threat. They are not always tied together. I actually stated in my post explicitly that women in certain situations should be legitimately concerned about the threat/possibility of escalation.

Therefore, I don't say that your position is giving a "free pass" to women, I am saying that putting out the attitude that groping men is a lesser violation of their personhood because it is less likely tied in with a threat sends out a message to society at large, and particularly to women who are not as careful as you are about their behavior. THAT'S why I believe there is a greater percentage of women perpetrators who are SURPRISED that anyone would take offense to their groping (or worse) than there are surprised male perpetrators. There may be a lot of male gropers, but for the most part, they know they're being a-holes. They just think the can get away with it. It seems to me that it is much more likely that women, on the other hand, don't even CONSIDER their groping to be inappropriate, for the most part. This is reflected in the experience of the groped male posters here, and even FaithfulWife who admits she used to squeeze men's biceps before she realized it was a violation on their bodies. Women are much more likely to not even be able to conceive of the idea that their actions are out of bounds. And I think that is from the overall attitude that the violation of men is less than the violation of women. And I think that attitude is perpetuated by the linking of the groping with possible subsequent threats. Although there certainly are situations when there is an associated further threat, that is not always true. 

And for what it's worth, this particular video does NOT look at all like the guy is a continuing threat. I don't think you can justify a Body Slam (which is what a CNN article called it) based on just a "possible" threat. And if the Body Slam is really justified retaliation for the grope that actually DID occur, then I think posters, including you, should be consistent and say that a Body Slam would also be justified in retaliation for a female groper when there was no obvious further threat, as there was in this video. At least it would be consistent, and not lessen the violation of men.


----------



## Red Sonja

ConanHub said:


> Tortured logic. I've lived through miles of this ****.
> 
> It isn't theoretical to me.
> 
> I do believe that offenders need prosecuted but the only way to stop a ****ing bad guy is to ****ing stop him.
> 
> Sexually assaulting someone, even an ass grab, causes harm and anyone that says otherwise can pony up their wives and daughters so I can molest them in front of their families. Don't worry. I will only be grabbing their behinds. No actual harm, right?
> 
> Stupid goddamned arguments here.


Yup, it isn’t theoretical to me either, a rape in a hotel room many years ago is what started my regular and life-long Aikido practice.

Yes, those arguments are ridiculous and here’s why … in the moment you don’t know whether or not an attacker is going to escalate things beyond a “grab” so it is important to take control of the situation quickly. In the case I relayed earlier (frontal boob grab) how would I know the guy would not have taken it further? How do I know if it was to be a grab and go?

The pain (Nikyo move) I inflicted does no damage, enabled me to take control and prevent further assault. You can call it violence (or revenge); I call it protecting myself.


----------



## Wolfman1968

ConanHub said:


> Tortured logic. I've lived through miles of this ****.
> 
> It isn't theoretical to me.
> 
> I do believe that offenders need prosecuted but the only way to stop a ****ing bad guy is to ****ing stop him.
> 
> *Sexually assaulting someone, even an ass grab, causes harm and anyone that says otherwise can pony up their wives and daughters so I can molest them in front of their families. Don't worry. I will only be grabbing their behinds. No actual harm, right?*
> 
> Stupid goddamned arguments here.
> 
> I would **** up that idiots world if he grabbed Mrs. Conan's shapely rear. Before anyone else goes off about theoretical bull ****, Mrs. Conan was sexually assaulted at work while we were dating. It didn't get too far and she shoved the asshat off before it got serious.
> 
> I did something that won't be related here. He apologized to her the next day on his knees, begging her forgiveness in front of many witnesses.
> 
> I've had two drunken women throw themselves at me in the same work environment and they didn't get anywhere and I wasn't near as threatened as my wife.
> 
> I'm amazed at the arguments being made by the "men"? of TAM here?



No, I am not arguing that gropers don't deserve a smack-down, I am arguing against the belief that only MALE gropers deserve a smack-down.

If, as you say, even an "ass grab" causes harm, then it causes harm to EITHER a female or male victim. Which I believe it does.

Frankly, I think the violation of their personhood is enough to deserve a smack-down, and adding in the threat part is unnecessary with women. However, IF that is going to be the argument, then such beat-downs should ONLY occur when there IS a clearly defined threat. On the other hand, if the physical violation is the issue, even if, as you put it, "is just an ass grab" that "still causes harm", then, damn it, be consistent and get tough with the women as well.

I believe it's the refusal to stand up just as strongly to women gropers as male gropers which gives a subset of women the attitude that they are entitled to grope or, as my relative who worked Domestic Violence cases for the State's Attorney has related, even physically abuse men.

So, no, I am NOT arguing that an "ass grab" doesn't cause harm. I am arguing that treating women "ass-grabbers" as a lesser offense encourages the belief in a subset of them that it's OK for them to grab. And that attitude filters through all of society, including law enforcement.

OK, I am going to lay my cards on the table. Maybe I'm oversensitive to this whole topic of the differential treatment of women offenders because of what I have seen and experienced, but it is a real problem, not just because they can degrade or even injure men with impunity, but maybe more importantly because they can enlist the aid of others, including the legal system, because of this attitude that offending men is a "lesser" offense, or that women are less likely to be a threat. 

I have already posted about a physician I know who was beaten by his wife (who was also a physician). For the record, the guy was caught cheating with another dude. But when she started whaling on him, he didn't right back for standard reasons (men shouldn't hit women, if the police come HE would be arrested, etc.). He was bloodied and bruised, and even sustained a ruptured ear drum. Although the police did arrest her, the charges were dropped, and the male physician didn't pursue it because it would complicate their divorce. Do you think a man beating his wife for cheating would get the charges dropped? I don't think so. 

In my own life, when my wife, who has had a lot of mental health issues, took a bunch of pills in a suicide gesture, THEN proceeded to assault me (with no retaliation from me) when I called 911 for medical help. When the police and ambulance showed up, she falsely told the police I was abusing HER. It's only by the fact that there was physical evidence to back up my story which caused her to recant her false accusation that I avoided having my life and profession ruined and my freedom taken away. And was she charge with either 1) assault or 2) making false statements/accusations to the police? No. Of course not.

So, I'll concede it's possible I'm hypervigilant on the issue of minimizing the crimes of women toward men due to the experience of my friend or my own experience, or what my relative's experience working in the State's Attorney's office. But the continued focus of just the physical size difference between men and women is misguided, because that doesn't come into play if the man doesn't fight back (like the physician I know, very common) or if the women enlists others. And although double standard of women's violence toward men as a whole is somewhat tangential to the OP thread, I believe it STARTS by having a double standard in less dramatic actions, like women gropers demeaning and degrading men. The common thread is the sense of entitlement.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Red Sonja said:


> Yup, it isn’t theoretical to me either, a rape in a hotel room many years ago is what started my regular and life-long Aikido practice.
> 
> Yes, those arguments are ridiculous and here’s why … in the moment you don’t know whether or not an attacker is going to escalate things beyond a “grab” so it is important to take control of the situation quickly. In the case I relayed earlier (frontal boob grab) how would I know the guy would not have taken it further? How do I know if it was to be a grab and go?
> 
> The pain (Nikyo move) I inflicted does no damage, enabled me to take control and prevent further assault. You can call it violence (or revenge); I call it protecting myself.



Well, if I say I have no problem with you doing this to "take control", would you say a guy is justified with "taking control" in the same way to a woman groper?

I actually think the groper deserved to get his ass whupped. My only issue is the double standard. Female gropers also should get their ass whupped. Because I see the degradation and personal violation to be the same in both cases. As I originally posted in my first response to @RoseAglow:

"I have a problem with an attitude that it's not so bad to violate a man's body because "no harm will come of it" or "it was in jest"."

That's all my stance is. If OTHERS (not me) are going to argue that the differential response toward male and female gropers is justified because of the physical size difference being a different threat, then this leads to the obvious conclusion that you need to have a reasonable degree of concern for the threat to justify the physical response. If people like Conanhub think my logic about the threat, retaliation/revenge etc. is convoluted, it's probably only because the premise that the fear of physical threat justifies as differential response to male vs female gropers is convoluted. I was just responding to the whole contention there should be a difference, but in my view BOTH female and male gropers deserve to have their ass kicked because in both cases the basic humanity of the victim is violated.

In other words, I was pointing out where the conclusion leads for those who advocate a double standard based on a possibility of a threat based on size difference. Since I don't actually hold that double standard, I think both sexes of gropers deserve a beat-down. And maybe that is a bit retaliatory and I admit that, but at least I feel it is consistent. 

And as far as other sexual threats or even other physical actions of men toward women--in that case too, the woman should defend herself. However, she should anyway, even if it's not preceded by a grope. 

And, as I posted elsewhere, I feel strongly about taking a strong stance against female gropers because I think that the minimization of women's groping assaults to men---especially if the minimization if focused on physical size differences---is one of the factors that leads to minimization of OTHER, more greivous assaults of women toward men. Plus, I think female groping of men itself won't stop unless it is viewed as just as bad as the reverse. Female gropers may be less common than male gropers (which I think is true, but I have no actual data either way), but being less common is no reason to tolerate it.



PS

And FWIW, even though female gropers deserve just as much of a smack-down, I'm not saying it's necessarily prudent to do so. Unfortunately, the police more often than not exhibit a double standard, and when the cops arrive the male victim of groping may find himself charge with assault whereas a female victim wouldn't. It's not right, but you do have to deal with the reality that exists currently.


----------



## Wolfman1968

Red Sonja said:


> Yup, it isn’t theoretical to me either, a rape in a hotel room many years ago is what started my regular and life-long Aikido practice.
> 
> Yes, those arguments are ridiculous and here’s why … in the moment you don’t know whether or not an attacker is going to escalate things beyond a “grab” so it is important to take control of the situation quickly. In the case I relayed earlier (frontal boob grab) how would I know the guy would not have taken it further? * How do I know if it was to be a grab and go?*
> 
> The pain (Nikyo move) I inflicted does no damage, enabled me to take control and prevent further assault. You can call it violence (or revenge); I call it protecting myself.


Well, then, getting back to the OP's initial video, that incident looks like about as classic of a (as you call it) "grab and go" and you can get. The perpetrator is rapidly moving out of the area, does his groping backhandedly, and is not even facing the waitress when he gropes. In fact, the waitress has to lean forward one step in order to grab the departing perpetrator by the arm in order to perform the body slam. 

For those who advocate a double standard between men and women because of "threat", then this would be problematic because I would be hard pressed to describe as less threatening situation that STILL included the groping violation. Since I think there should NOT be a double standard and that gropers of either sex deserve an ass-kicking either way, it's not a problem for me. But if the guy sustained an injury and decided to sue for an injury based on "disproportionate force", depending on the laws of his locality, I would imagine he might actually have a case. (Some states/localities disallow lawsuits by perpetrators related to the commission of their crime, so I can't imagine he would win in those jurisdictions).


----------



## ConanHub

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, I am not arguing that gropers don't deserve a smack-down, I am arguing against the belief that only MALE gropers deserve a smack-down.
> 
> If, as you say, even an "ass grab" causes harm, then it causes harm to EITHER a female or male victim. Which I believe it does.
> 
> Frankly, I think the violation of their personhood is enough to deserve a smack-down, and adding in the threat part is unnecessary with women. However, IF that is going to be the argument, then such beat-downs should ONLY occur when there IS a clearly defined threat. On the other hand, if the physical violation is the issue, even if, as you put it, "is just an ass grab" that "still causes harm", then, damn it, be consistent and get tough with the women as well.
> 
> I believe it's the refusal to stand up just as strongly to women gropers as male gropers which gives a subset of women the attitude that they are entitled to grope or, as my relative who worked Domestic Violence cases for the State's Attorney has related, even physically abuse men.
> 
> So, no, I am NOT arguing that an "ass grab" doesn't cause harm. I am arguing that treating women "ass-grabbers" as a lesser offense encourages the belief in a subset of them that it's OK for them to grab. And that attitude filters through all of society, including law enforcement.
> 
> OK, I am going to lay my cards on the table. Maybe I'm oversensitive to this whole topic of the differential treatment of women offenders because of what I have seen and experienced, but it is a real problem, not just because they can degrade or even injure men with impunity, but maybe more importantly because they can enlist the aid of others, including the legal system, because of this attitude that offending men is a "lesser" offense, or that women are less likely to be a threat.
> 
> I have already posted about a physician I know who was beaten by his wife (who was also a physician). For the record, the guy was caught cheating with another dude. But when she started whaling on him, he didn't right back for standard reasons (men shouldn't hit women, if the police come HE would be arrested, etc.). He was bloodied and bruised, and even sustained a ruptured ear drum. Although the police did arrest her, the charges were dropped, and the male physician didn't pursue it because it would complicate their divorce. Do you think a man beating his wife for cheating would get the charges dropped? I don't think so.
> 
> In my own life, when my wife, who has had a lot of mental health issues, took a bunch of pills in a suicide gesture, THEN proceeded to assault me (with no retaliation from me) when I called 911 for medical help. When the police and ambulance showed up, she falsely told the police I was abusing HER. It's only by the fact that there was physical evidence to back up my story which caused her to recant her false accusation that I avoided having my life and profession ruined and my freedom taken away. And was she charge with either 1) assault or 2) making false statements/accusations to the police? No. Of course not.
> 
> So, I'll concede it's possible I'm hypervigilant on the issue of minimizing the crimes of women toward men due to the experience of my friend or my own experience, or what my relative's experience working in the State's Attorney's office. But the continued focus of just the physical size difference between men and women is misguided, because that doesn't come into play if the man doesn't fight back (like the physician I know, very common) or if the women enlists others. And although double standard of women's violence toward men as a whole is somewhat tangential to the OP thread, I believe it STARTS by having a double standard in less dramatic actions, like women gropers demeaning and degrading men. The common thread is the sense of entitlement.


Domestic violence is a different topic than this thread. I agree with you on the domestic violence issue mostly. This is about men, idiotic dogs, who treat random women like their livestock.

Women cannot even approach men in this arena. Men and women are equally deserving of respect and dignity but they are not equal across all areas of life.

Women have the capability of betrayal on a scale men aren't capable of with paternity fraud and men are capable of abusing women in ways they can't hope to retaliate against because they generally outsize and out strength them by more than a two to one ratio.

Sexual assault is lopsided heavily in favor of male criminals. Arguing about it is off base. Your domestic violence arguments are valid for another thread but not here.

I have been insulted and even assaulted by irate females but I could have ended every one of their tantrums with a good slap. I was never in any real danger. The same absolutely cannot be said for a woman with an irate or belligerent man.

There are at least as many good women out there as good men and many have come to my "rescue" against belligerent females.

There is a natural, primal way about this that I believe most well adjusted folks recognize.


----------



## Luminous

Wolfman1968 said:


> No, I am not arguing that gropers don't deserve a smack-down, I am arguing against the belief that only MALE gropers deserve a smack-down.
> 
> If, as you say, even an "ass grab" causes harm, then it causes harm to EITHER a female or male victim. Which I believe it does.
> 
> Frankly, I think the violation of their personhood is enough to deserve a smack-down, and adding in the threat part is unnecessary with women. However, IF that is going to be the argument, then such beat-downs should ONLY occur when there IS a clearly defined threat. On the other hand, if the physical violation is the issue, even if, as you put it, "is just an ass grab" that "still causes harm", then, damn it, be consistent and get tough with the women as well.
> 
> I believe it's the refusal to stand up just as strongly to women gropers as male gropers which gives a subset of women the attitude that they are entitled to grope or, as my relative who worked Domestic Violence cases for the State's Attorney has related, even physically abuse men.
> 
> So, no, I am NOT arguing that an "ass grab" doesn't cause harm. I am arguing that treating women "ass-grabbers" as a lesser offense encourages the belief in a subset of them that it's OK for them to grab. And that attitude filters through all of society, including law enforcement.
> 
> OK, I am going to lay my cards on the table. Maybe I'm oversensitive to this whole topic of the differential treatment of women offenders because of what I have seen and experienced, but it is a real problem, not just because they can degrade or even injure men with impunity, but maybe more importantly because they can enlist the aid of others, including the legal system, because of this attitude that offending men is a "lesser" offense, or that women are less likely to be a threat.
> 
> I have already posted about a physician I know who was beaten by his wife (who was also a physician). For the record, the guy was caught cheating with another dude. But when she started whaling on him, he didn't right back for standard reasons (men shouldn't hit women, if the police come HE would be arrested, etc.). He was bloodied and bruised, and even sustained a ruptured ear drum. Although the police did arrest her, the charges were dropped, and the male physician didn't pursue it because it would complicate their divorce. Do you think a man beating his wife for cheating would get the charges dropped? I don't think so.
> 
> In my own life, when my wife, who has had a lot of mental health issues, took a bunch of pills in a suicide gesture, THEN proceeded to assault me (with no retaliation from me) when I called 911 for medical help. When the police and ambulance showed up, she falsely told the police I was abusing HER. It's only by the fact that there was physical evidence to back up my story which caused her to recant her false accusation that I avoided having my life and profession ruined and my freedom taken away. And was she charge with either 1) assault or 2) making false statements/accusations to the police? No. Of course not.
> 
> So, I'll concede it's possible I'm hypervigilant on the issue of minimizing the crimes of women toward men due to the experience of my friend or my own experience, or what my relative's experience working in the State's Attorney's office. But the continued focus of just the physical size difference between men and women is misguided, because that doesn't come into play if the man doesn't fight back (like the physician I know, very common) or if the women enlists others. And although double standard of women's violence toward men as a whole is somewhat tangential to the OP thread, I believe it STARTS by having a double standard in less dramatic actions, like women gropers demeaning and degrading men. The common thread is the sense of entitlement.


It does bring up an interesting point. Look at the influence of media to us all over the past decades. Do a comparison of how you felt in a scene in a movie or TV show where a man gets slapped by a woman, then watch one where a woman gets slapped by a man. You will notice alot of the time, that the scene where the men get slapped more often than not has a comical value, whereas a woman getting slapped by a man is something you would see out of a crime show.

Another version would be scenes of men getting kneed in the groin. Don't see much comedy that would have men kneeing women in the groin.

Everyone has an opinion, whether it is shaped by media, and/or personal experiences. I'm not looking to downplay anyone's, but sometimes people are not aware of where their prejudices stem from.


----------



## ConanHub

@Wolfman1968

A female groper should maybe receive a spanking? LOL! 😈 

I would be for that but no need to body slam her unless you only weigh 90 lbs.


----------



## Red Sonja

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, if I say I have no problem with you doing this to "take control", would you say a guy is justified with "taking control" in the same way to a woman groper?


Absolutely, yes ... in the same situation of being groped by a stranger. Keep in mind that I would have handled the situation differently if it had been say, in a social setting (party, wedding, etc) and I was groped by a drunken ass-hat.

And, I didn't "ass-whoop" the guy ... I am not under the delusion that I can win a street fight against a male opponent. It would be more correct to say that I immobilized him in order to stop the attack and give me time to get away from him.


----------



## Red Sonja

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, then, getting back to the OP's initial video, that incident looks like about as classic of a (as you call it) "grab and go" and you can get. The perpetrator is rapidly moving out of the area, does his groping backhandedly, and is not even facing the waitress when he gropes. In fact, the waitress has to lean forward one step in order to grab the departing perpetrator by the arm in order to perform the body slam.


Yeah but ... he groped her by surprise, from behind, like the coward he is so she had no way of knowing what was coming from him next.


----------



## Robbie1234

I find it kind of funny that two of the guys and one of the women on this thread who believe that the waitress was right in defending herself are probably the most unlikely to get assaulted by anyone. Conan especially would be the last person anyone would start a fight with and Andy and Red Sonja are well capable of defending themselves too. 
Is this Alpha V Beta I wonder.


----------



## Blondilocks

The guy in the video didn't get a beat down, geez. I've done more damage to myself tripping over a car stop in a parking lot.

Any guy who wants to throw a woman to the ground for groping him won't get any objection from me. Fair is fair.


----------



## personofinterest

Blondilocks said:


> The guy in the video didn't get a beat down, geez. I've done more damage to myself tripping over a car stop in a parking lot.
> 
> Any guy who wants to throw a woman to the ground for groping him won't get any objection from me. Fair is fair.


 Exactly. This whole thing is like to 1st graders arguing with their teacher on the playground. Well he got to do it, don't I get to do it to?? I can almost see the little stamping foot lol


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Luminous said:


> It does bring up an interesting point. Look at the influence of media to us all over the past decades. Do a comparison of how you felt in a scene in a movie or TV show where a man gets slapped by a woman, then watch one where a woman gets slapped by a man. You will notice alot of the time, that the scene where the men get slapped more often than not has a comical value, whereas a woman getting slapped by a man is something you would see out of a crime show.
> 
> Another version would be scenes of men getting kneed in the groin. Don't see much comedy that would have men kneeing women in the groin.
> 
> Everyone has an opinion, whether it is shaped by media, and/or personal experiences. I'm not looking to downplay anyone's, but sometimes people are not aware of where their prejudices stem from.


That's silly to compare. The context of the man getting slapped is always laced with comedy. Its always on a comedy show. Where as a man slapping a woman is usually in some drama show where the man is an abusive person to begin with.


----------



## Luminous

TheDudeLebowski said:


> That's silly to compare. The context of the man getting slapped is always laced with comedy. Its always on a comedy show. Where as a man slapping a woman is usually in some drama show where the man is an abusive person to begin with.


You are missing the point. It is about that type of scenario being imprinted on us as man gets slapped in face = funny', 'girl gets slapped in face = OMG WTF what an arsehole scumbag'

No one would dare do a scene of a man slapping a woman with comic overtones. They'd be crucified.

Actually, the end of your message proves you do get it, even if you do not realise it.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Luminous said:


> You are missing the point. It is about that type of scenario being imprinted on us as man gets slapped in face = funny', 'girl gets slapped in face = OMG WTF what an arsehole scumbag'
> 
> No one would dare do a scene of a man slapping a woman with comic overtones. They'd be crucified.
> 
> Actually, the end of your message proves you do get it, even if you do not realise it.


There's been scenes of an abusive woman slapping a man that weren't comedic. However, they usually portray women as evil, backstabbing, conniving, and murderous. They do their dirt in the shadows, playing people from all angles. Which is much more realistic. Women are better at the mind games than men are. Because they have always had to be. Men have usually been able to resort to "I'll kick your ass" where women haven't. So over the millenia, they have developed their skills of trickery and mind****ery to lengths men can't even begin to grasp. 

Also, ive seen several comedic scenes where a man slaps a woman. If the writing is good, and the context makes sense, it can still be funny.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> @Wolfman1968
> 
> 
> 
> A female groper should maybe receive a spanking? LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> I would be for that but no need to body slam her unless you only weigh 90 lbs.



You give her spanking then you will have to prove it wasn’t you who is sexually harassing her. Good luck with that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cromer

I did some reading about this issue and found an interesting term: P***y Pass. The term p***ypass is used to describe situations where girls and/or women get a free "pass", i.e. special treatment based on their gender.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=*****pass

Examples would be cutting in a club line, getting out of a speeding ticket, or more lenient treatment or sanctions for immoral, unethical or criminal behavior. "She unbuttoned her shirt before the officer pulled her over, and she got a pu**ypass on the ticket"

Think about the female teachers getting probation for screwing their minor students.

There is even a section on Reddit devoted to this topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/*****passdenied/

Yep, it's out there, men allow it, and women take advantage.

Stupid men.


----------



## EleGirl

BioFury said:


> If another man grabbed my butt, I'd be so shocked he'd have long-since walked off before I picked my jaw up off the floor.
> 
> I don't think Chillmorn is saying it's not a problem, or that women shouldn't be able to use violence against men if they are assaulted. I think he's attacking the hypocritical feminist ideal. The women who parade around screaming for equal rights and treatment, while at the same time retaining, and expecting, the preferential treatment given to them by men. One of those preferential treatments being, not using violence against them.
> 
> But just to be clear, I'm 110% supportive of women destroying men who assault them. I just think it's hypocritical for feminists to demand equality, but only in areas of benefit to them. Which I think might be what chillmorn was saying.


Why do you assume that anyone is being hypocritical? Not one person has said that it's ok for a woman to grab a man sexually like that. 

Geez....

The woman did not "destroy" the man who grabbed her butt (or assaulted) her. She physically responded to his physical attack. 

Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. Why not?


----------



## Luminous

EleGirl said:


> Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. Why not?


This argument is becoming circular, but I will see if I can add some enlightenment...

No, a guy cannot respond to a woman like that. Modern culture (especially western culture) has a tendency to portray Men as the aggressors, and Women as the victims, which, on a side note, is why the feminists who want equality will never get it whilst playing the victim card instead of playing to a woman's strengths instead

Whether you realise it or not, people seem to think that we are so civilised, that we can get equality in such a short time with no setbacks, yet fail to understand how the human brain is wired on a primal level, and how that still plays a significant part in how we go about our daily business as men and women.

You can't change millions of years of evolution overnight, or even in a few decades/centuries.


----------



## Cromer

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that anyone is being hypocritical? Not one person has said that it's ok for a woman to grab a man sexually like that.
> 
> Geez....
> 
> The woman did not "destroy" the man who grabbed her butt (or assaulted) her. She physically responded to his physical attack.
> 
> *Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. Why not?*


The justice system and disproportional punishment. For many (if not most) jurisdictions, if a woman hits a man first and he hits back and does more damage, she is the victim. It's the standard of greatest harm. I had no idea about this until I started reading because of this thread. It's just the way it is, unfortunately.

After looking at dozens of videos, I am convinced that most women have NO CLUE as to their relative and significant physical weakness against a man until she gets hit back. Then she starts screaming about how a man shouldn't hit a woman. She will smack him dozens of times and when he gets fed up and hits back, BOOM! One hit sleeper. I blame a lot of this on our young women being indoctrinated with the notion that there's no difference between men and women, and young men told not to treat women differently anymore. But there is a difference. A quick look at youtube will show you how young *****es be crazy when it comes to hitting men. Sad.


----------



## Wolfman1968

EleGirl said:


> _*Why do you assume that anyone is being hypocritical?*_ Not one person has said that it's ok for a woman to grab a man sexually like that.
> 
> Geez....
> 
> The woman did not "destroy" the man who grabbed her butt (or assaulted) her. She physically responded to his physical attack.
> 
> *Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. Why not?*


Well, this response issue is the part that's the double standard. YOU say it is ok for a guy who was groped by a woman to respond physically to the female groper, but others in this thread have said it is NOT ok. In fact, to *real life* examples in this thread, such as @Cromer, no one suggested that HE body slam the female groper to the ground. (I use "body slam" because that's how an article on the CNN website described the viral video, so I figure it's a neutral 3rd party news organization description of it.) In fact, the only responses people suggested he could use were either gentle verbal disapproval or even a joke ("you need my wife's permission to do that", etc.). Then there were posts saying that the female gropers are not deserving of physical response because it's not as bad of a threat.

OK, I can see that you are not having a double standard if you say a guy can respond similarly to a woman groper. "Physical response to a physical attack", as you put it. So obviously you're not the one being called out for being hypocritical/double standard. The hypocritical part was not that anyone said it was "ok" for a woman to grope a man, the hypocritical part was that the female groper is not as bad (because of lack of threat) so doesn't deserve a physical response. The calling out for hypocrisy/double standard was about applauding a physical response by a female victim while saying a male victim is not justified for a physical response. 

And, as a side note, even if YOU say it is OK for a guy to respond similarly, I suspect that any police who show up to sort it out will most likely have a double standard and probably arrest the male victim for his physical response, whereas in this viral video, they did nothing to the female victim for her physical response. Another double standard, if my suspicion on police response turns out correct.


----------



## EleGirl

Cromer said:


> The justice system and disproportional punishment. For many (if not most) jurisdictions, if a woman hits a man first and he hits back and does more damage, she is the victim. It's the standard of greatest harm. I had no idea about this until I started reading because of this thread. It's just the way it is, unfortunately.
> 
> After looking at dozens of videos, I am convinced that most women have NO CLUE as to their relative and significant physical weakness against a man until she gets hit back. Then she starts screaming about how a man shouldn't hit a woman. She will smack him dozens of times and when he gets fed up and hits back, BOOM! One hit sleeper. I blame a lot of this on our young women being indoctrinated with the notion that there's no difference between men and women, and young men told not to treat women differently anymore. But there is a difference. A quick look at youtube will show you how young *****es be crazy when it comes to hitting men. Sad.


The video you posted of the blond girl being slammed off her feet by the guy... um, must women will never encounter something like that. That's a rather unusual physical encounter.

"Most women have NO CLUE as to their relative and significant physical weakness against a man" -- Most women don't whale on men so, yea, most don't get to experience this from the standpoint of a man returning their violence with a superior level of violence.

I think that most women learn that males are stronger from childhood experiences. It becomes pretty clear very early on. 

Another situation in which women learn pretty quickly that men are a lot stronger is with sex. A man does not have to physically abuse a woman for her to realize that there is a serious disparity in strength. It's pretty clear from intimate encounters, even loving ones.


----------



## Red Sonja

chillymorn69 said:


> It seems in a world where toxic masclinity is even a term but mascline women are praised something is a miss.


This is a bizarre statement, please explain. Toxic masculinity is not worth discussing because it's a silly, meaningless term ... some SJW made it up to further an agenda and start controversy in order to gain attention ... kinda like the term feminazi .

However, where are or what are these "masculine women" that are being "praised" ... I seem to have missed them?


----------



## EleGirl

Wolfman1968 said:


> Well, this response issue is the part that's the double standard. YOU say it is ok for a guy who was groped by a woman to respond physically to the female groper, but others in this thread have said it is NOT ok. In fact, to *real life* examples in this thread, such as @Cromer, no one suggested that HE body slam the female groper to the ground. (I use "body slam" because that's how an article on the CNN website described the viral video, so I figure it's a neutral 3rd party news organization description of it.) In fact, the only responses people suggested he could use were either gentle verbal disapproval or even a joke ("you need my wife's permission to do that", etc.). Then there were posts saying that the female gropers are not deserving of physical response because it's not as bad of a threat.
> 
> OK, I can see that you are not having a double standard if you say a guy can respond similarly to a woman groper. "Physical response to a physical attack", as you put it. So obviously you're not the one being called out for being hypocritical/double standard. The hypocritical part was not that anyone said it was "ok" for a woman to grope a man, the hypocritical part was that the female groper is not as bad (because of lack of threat) so doesn't deserve a physical response. The calling out for hypocrisy/double standard was about applauding a physical response by a female victim while saying a male victim is not justified for a physical response.
> 
> And, as a side note, even if YOU say it is OK for a guy to respond similarly, I suspect that any police who show up to sort it out will most likely have a double standard and probably arrest the male victim for his physical response, whereas in this viral video, they did nothing to the female victim for her physical response. Another double standard, if my suspicion on police response turns out correct.


If there had not been a video of this guy in the OP grabbing her butt, and the waitress just went after that guy, she would most likely have been arrested and charged with assault. The video changes a lot.

One of the issues with a guy doing what the waitress did is that if a man did the same thing to a woman, it's highly likely that she would be more seriously hurt. The issue of appropriate response is important here an one that is, I believe, a valid topic of discussion. What is appropriate response to groping? What level of physical retaliation is OK. 

I've done things like stomp on the foot of a creep on the city bus and grind my high heal into the top of his foot. I did this a few times.

I actually did this a few times on the city bus. There was an incident at Oktoberfest where it was just shoulder to shoulder people. Some creep just pushed up against me and was grabbing everything he could. I got so pissed that is started beating on him. He was built like an ox and just looked at me with surprise. There was no way that I could have actually hurt the guy.


----------



## Luminous

EleGirl said:


> One of the issues with a guy doing what the waitress did is that if a man did the same thing to a woman, it's highly likely that she would be more seriously hurt.


BINGO

and that is the crux of the issue here. 

People want total equality, but what you described points out how that can never be true.


----------



## Cromer

EleGirl said:


> The video you posted of the blond girl being slammed off her feet by the guy... um,* must women will never encounter something like that.* That's a rather unusual physical encounter.


Exactly. Because no matter what popular culture is trying to teach about women being "strong" and "equal", most men still wouldn't engage a belligerent woman this way.

I'm not sure how old you are or what generation you are from, or even if you work with young people. But today's world is much different, and the notion of gender neutral is not in the favor of women. Our young women are finding realities are much different than what they've been led to believe, and I've seen it at the university and the military. The real world and gender-neutral law is a ***** for them. We do a great disservice by telling them otherwise.


----------



## As'laDain

I had this happen to me a at a bar once when i was in airborne school. I was just a wee private back then. There was a guy who was obviously gay and quite drunk, trying to hit on guys at the bar. One of my buddies thought it would be funny to tell him that i was gay and had my eye on him all night. While i was ordering a drink, he came up behind me and grabbed my butt, then immediately reached around and grabbed my front. I elbowed him just beneath the ribs before i even turned around. My first thought was that it was one of my buddies goofing off. 

After a very short conversation where i explained that i was not gay and not interested, i went back to ordering my drink and he left me alone. I didn't have any issues with him for the rest of the night, but I couldn't shake this funny feeling that i had seen him before...

In formation the next monday, i realized where i had seen him. He was a staff sergeant, one of my companies student platoon sergeants. A buddy of mine and i pulled him aside and told him that we saw him at the bar last friday night. His eyes got big as saucers and he blurted out "please don't believe anything i said!" 

I told him i wouldn't believe anything he DID either, since he was pretty damned drunk. This was before don't ask don't tell was repealed, and since this guy had been nothing but professional in uniform and when not plastered, i didn't feel like it would have been right to ruin his career. 

As luck would have it, i kinda ran into him again. he ended up being the SHARP rep for a sister company to mine later on in my career, and was by then a sergeant first class. From what people told me at the time, he was phenomenal at his job and everyone loved him.


----------



## azimuth

Cromer said:


> The justice system and disproportional punishment. For many (if not most) jurisdictions, if a woman hits a man first and he hits back and does more damage, she is the victim. It's the standard of greatest harm. I had no idea about this until I started reading because of this thread. It's just the way it is, unfortunately.
> 
> After looking at dozens of videos, I am convinced that most women have NO CLUE as to their relative and significant physical weakness against a man until she gets hit back. Then she starts screaming about how a man shouldn't hit a woman. She will smack him dozens of times and when he gets fed up and hits back, BOOM! One hit sleeper. I *blame a lot of this on our young women being indoctrinated with the notion that there's no difference between men and women, and young men told not to treat women differently anymore*. But there is a difference. A quick look at youtube will show you how young *****es be crazy when it comes to hitting men. Sad.


I'm the mother of a 7yo girl and exposed to a lot of media directed at her age range and higher. The current modern media doesn't straight up tell girls that there's no difference between men and women. I believe modern media is trying to change culture so stuff like groping itself doesn't happen on both sides, men and women. Physical violence response is not promoted on either side. The media I've seen is trying to show that women/girls shouldn't be sexually objectified. (Yes, I note the irony of that message coming from Hollywood) On one of the episodes of "Liv and Maddie" a Disney teen show, they discuss how female stars are always asked about their appearance and dresses on the red carpet, while male stars are asked about their work as an actor. That's the kind of thing I see in these shows. I've never seen anyone or anything saying girls can hit boys with impunity because there's no difference between them. And most women do know they're physically weaker than men because it's common sense. This obviously doesn't apply to drunk idiots however.

I don't know what the feminist ideal is, but I don't think it's for "women to act like men." - men hit, so women can hit also, kind of thing. Related to this particular case, I think, I don't know, but I think it's to respect individuals, and not grope and not hit. I was groped a lot when I was a teenager and it was disgusting and I felt humiliated. I don't think it's a coincidence it happened when I was about 95lbs and not in a position to retaliate. I was taught to be flattered if a man showed sexual attention to me. Today that's not what's being taught.


----------



## NobodySpecial

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that anyone is being hypocritical? Not one person has said that it's ok for a woman to grab a man sexually like that.
> 
> Geez....
> 
> The woman did not "destroy" the man who grabbed her butt (or assaulted) her. She physically responded to his physical attack.
> 
> Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. *Why not?*


Because the perception of strength and aggression would render him a total scum in public (and likely police) opinion. It's real.


----------



## personofinterest

Personally, I think a woman who assaults a man should face the exact same consequences as a man who assaults a woman. That said, I don't know why we have to do this whataboutism crap every time there's a thread about a woman getting hurt. I don't know if these men are trying to earn red pill points or what, but it comes off as deflecting and foot stamping and wanting "that's not fair!"


----------



## farsidejunky

personofinterest said:


> Personally, I think a woman who assaults a man should face the exact same consequences as a man who assaults a woman. That said, I don't know why we have to do this whataboutism crap every time there's a thread about a woman getting hurt. I don't know if these men are trying to earn red pill points or what, but it comes off as deflecting and foot stamping and wanting "that's not fair!"


Because there is a perception (please note I said perception, not _necessarily_ reality, although some aspects are very real) that the pursuit for equality includes righting that which is unfavorably unequal towards the aggrieved, while maintaining that which is favorably unequal.

That is at the heart of whataboutism.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

I understand the double standard, and I completely agree that it is unfair. I absolutely agree that women are always believed and always supported when it comes to Violet's, while men are almost shamed when they are victims of violence. The problem is not whether the inequity is valid. The problem is the way some men go about expressing this inequality. I have seen men come into a discussion about a female rape victim and turn the conversation around and into this disparity. At some point, men need to reflect on how and in pathetic and self centered and just jerk ish this kind of thing makes them seem. And nobody wants to hear your thoughts about in equity when you come off as some sort of jackace. Approach matters. We don't have to think it matters and we can hold on to our montra of that's just how I am all we want to. But we all know that in the real world how you say something can make just as much of a difference as what you say.


----------



## frustratedinphx

It’s looks like a double-standard, but isn’t that cut & dry. 

Here are the statistics:
Sexual Assault in the United States
-One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives (a)
-In the U.S., one in three women and one in six men experienced some form of contact sexual violence in their lifetime (o)
-91% of victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and nine percent are male (m)
(Source: https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics )

While men experience sexual assault, the numbers scream women are more “at risk”. Women have every right to feel more vulnerable & prepared to act in any situation.

I think some women unfortunately take the stance that we should be equal, but we’re not in many ways & can’t be. Physically is the most obvious, but even then there are exceptions. Rather than debate it, I suggest we all consider it from another approach, seeking “equity”, not “equality”. Think of equity in terms of bartering. “I’ll trade you 4 fur pelts for a bucket of fresh fish & a turkey.” The value is subjective to the parties involved. Equity in a marriage/relationship is more subjective than public opinion can be, but hopefully we’ll get there with consensus someday.

If men want to chance a woman’s response to his sexual aggression knowing statistically, she has the right to be very defensive, he’d better be prepared for it. She could be packing heat, a judo black belt, etc. If a woman wants to do it, she’d also better be prepared, but with the caveat, that men *must know their strength” (assuming he’s not packing). Stop the assault & let someone else restrain the woman if he wants to press charges. 

If the man defends himself, he’d better know how to do it being careful not minimize bodily injury. It’s not cut & dry but does he want a judge or jury deciding his “intent” if he does? FTR- women should also be held accountable for causing bodily harm, even if in self-defense. I took a self-defense class last night taught by a former police officer & learned anyone can be effective with a few simple moves. 

Sexual assault is wrong no matter what. Let’s all use common sense, even though it’s hard for some.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl

Cromer said:


> Exactly. Because no matter what popular culture is trying to teach about women being "strong" and "equal", most men still wouldn't engage a belligerent woman this way.
> 
> I'm not sure how old you are or what generation you are from, or even if you work with young people. But today's world is much different, and the notion of gender neutral is not in the favor of women. Our young women are finding realities are much different than what they've been led to believe, and I've seen it at the university and the military. The real world and gender-neutral law is a ***** for them. We do a great disservice by telling them otherwise.


I'm 69 and retired. Served in the US Army for 4 years then had 35+ career as an engineer. I have children who are now in their 20's and have nieces & nephews who range in age fro 45 to 1 year old. 

I'm not sure what part gender neutral laws are a ***** for younger people today and how those gender neutral laws differ today for people my age vs young people. Could you clarify?


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> Why do you assume that anyone is being hypocritical? Not one person has said that it's ok for a woman to grab a man sexually like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Geez....
> 
> 
> 
> The woman did not "destroy" the man who grabbed her butt (or assaulted) her. She physically responded to his physical attack.
> 
> 
> 
> Can a guy respond similarly to a woman who did something like this to him? Sure. Why not?




A guy CAN respond like this but I don’t think any guy would. I certainly wouldn’t assault a woman if she grabbed my ass. I would move my ass out of the way and maybe make it known that I don’t especially it grabbed at this point in time, but can a man honestly say that it would bother them that much if a woman squeezed their ass??

Why can’t we have double standards for some things? I think it’s ok. It’s silly to pretend it’s the same thing. One of the things that makes assaulting women different from women assaulting men is that in most cases, the man can defend shimself. A woman often can’t. So threat is involved in one instance but not so much in another.
Both is wrong though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> If there had not been a video of this guy in the OP grabbing her butt, and the waitress just went after that guy, she would most likely have been arrested and charged with assault. The video changes a lot.
> 
> One of the issues with a guy doing what the waitress did is that if a man did the same thing to a woman, it's highly likely that she would be more seriously hurt. The issue of appropriate response is important here an one that is, I believe, a valid topic of discussion. What is appropriate response to groping? What level of physical retaliation is OK.
> 
> I've done things like stomp on the foot of a creep on the city bus and grind my high heal into the top of his foot. I did this a few times.
> 
> I actually did this a few times on the city bus. There was an incident at Oktoberfest where it was just shoulder to shoulder people. Some creep just pushed up against me and was grabbing everything he could. I got so pissed that is started beating on him. He was built like an ox and just looked at me with surprise. There was no way that I could have actually hurt the guy.



Isn’t Oktoberfest where everybody is ****ing everybody else? And the people who are not ****ing or not coming on to other people are the odd ones out? (Bit like Love Parade in Berlin). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Luminous

inmyprime said:


> A guy CAN respond like this but I don’t think any guy would. I certainly wouldn’t assault a woman if she grabbed my ass. I would move my ass out of the way and maybe make it known that I don’t especially it grabbed at this point in time, but can a man honestly say that it would bother them that much if a woman squeezed their ass??
> 
> Why can’t we have double standards for some things? I think it’s ok. It’s silly to pretend it’s the same thing. One of the things that makes assaulting women different from women assaulting men is that in most cases, the man can defend shimself. A woman often can’t. So threat is involved in one instance but not so much in another.
> Both is wrong though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The problem with your argument, is that people want equality, except when the s##t hits the fan, then they revert to their instinctive biological disposition. 

Most guys probably wouldn't mind, but this whole unrealistic equality debate is not being pushed by men


----------



## Red Sonja

Luminous said:


> The problem with your argument, is that people want equality, except when the s##t hits the fan, then they revert to their instinctive biological disposition.
> 
> Most guys probably wouldn't mind, but this whole unrealistic equality debate is not being pushed by men


Wrong on both points ... the first point is just silly because we all have higher reasoning brains (or most of us do) that override biology all the time and, as for the second, look again at who started the "equality debate" on this thread.


----------



## Luminous

Red Sonja said:


> Wrong on both points ... the first point is just silly because we all have higher reasoning brains (or most of us do) that override biology all the time and, as for the second, look again at who started the "equality debate" on this thread.


Sonja, Men these days don't know where the hell they belong, because they constantly get told that any sign of masculinity or characteristics of being an alpha is wrong. They are told to be more effeminate, because that's what women 'think' they want but when they do that, they fail to connect with women on the primal level.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I'll happily cop whatever abuse comes from it, but the western white male has become societies punching bag. They are told to just put up with whatever crap they get fed, don't fight the system, that it is wrong to assert yourself, to put a woman in her place when she deserves it.

Just like a man not truly understanding what is it like for a woman to be pregnant, I would not expect you to understand unless you have walked in those shoes.


----------



## chillymorn69

Red Sonja said:


> Wrong on both points ... the first point is just silly because we all have higher reasoning brains (or most of us do) that override biology all the time and, as for the second, look again at who started the "equality debate" on this thread.



our high reasoning brain over rides biology sometime . Not All the time.

Are you implying someone who starts a debte is wrong just because he started a debate in the first place?
Are debates not good?


Typical strawman tactics!

Over exacerbate your fact or claims the attack the person.


Laughable.


----------



## SpinyNorman

ConanHub said:


> @Wolfman1968
> 
> A female groper should maybe receive a spanking? LOL! 😈
> 
> I would be for that but no need to body slam her unless you only weigh 90 lbs.


So you said earlier you decked a guy for grabbing you. I'm fine w/ that, but unless he was a lot bigger than you, you seem to be in violation of your own standards.


----------



## EleGirl

inmyprime said:


> Isn’t Oktoberfest where everybody is ****ing everybody else? And the people who are not ****ing or not coming on to other people are the odd ones out? (Bit like Love Parade in Berlin).


OMG, what a ridiculous statement.

So I guess in your book it was ok for the guy to do that because you have a distorted view of what Oktoberfest is. Geeezzzzzz

No that's not what Oktoberfest is. The Oktoberfest I used to go to is in Munich, Germany. People went to it to drink a lot of beer, eat a lot of worsts, schnitzel, etc. and listen to bands.


----------



## SpinyNorman

personofinterest said:


> I understand the double standard, and I completely agree that it is unfair. I absolutely agree that women are always believed and always supported when it comes to Violet's, while men are almost shamed when they are victims of violence. The problem is not whether the inequity is valid. The problem is the way some men go about expressing this inequality. I have seen men come into a discussion about a female rape victim and turn the conversation around and into this disparity. At some point, men need to reflect on how and in pathetic and self centered and just jerk ish this kind of thing makes them seem. And nobody wants to hear your thoughts about in equity when you come off as some sort of jackace. Approach matters. We don't have to think it matters and we can hold on to our montra of that's just how I am all we want to. But we all know that in the real world how you say something can make just as much of a difference as what you say.


So you don't object to equality, just to people who are uppity about asking for it. This sounds familiar from some part of our history, or maybe several.


----------



## Red Sonja

chillymorn69 said:


> our high reasoning brain over rides biology sometime. Not All the time.
> 
> *Are you implying someone who starts a debte is wrong just because he started a debate in the first place?
> Are debates not good?*
> 
> 
> Typical strawman tactics!
> 
> Over exacerbate your fact or claims the attack the person.
> 
> 
> Laughable.


I am rolling my eyes so hard they hurt ... where are you getting this tripe from what I said?

_Obviously_, anyone is welcome to start a debate, I was merely correcting his statement that _men_ don't start debates on equality because it just isn't true.


And, BTW you never answered my question asked earlier in the thread ... asking for clarification on a statement you made. Too busy shooting verbal bullets I suppose.


----------



## Bluesclues

How did this even get to an equality argument? If a STRANGER grabs me I am going to physically respond. Male, female. The end. 

Why is “what would happen if a woman was the ass grabber” being discussed? Discuss wtf is going through that guy’s mind to do that to a STRANGER. Seriously, what does he get out of that? Where did he see that going? Does he imagine she will turn around, think he is cute and follow him to the bathroom for a quickie? That is what i want to know. 

Because I think that is the real issue. I know zero women who have ever touched a strange man’s anything. But every woman I know has been touched on their breasts, ass or vagina by a STRANGER - not the drunk person at a wedding, not the bi-sometimes friend, not the annoying frat guy always trying to get in your pants - I mean a complete stranger. And not one liked it in any way. So yes, when one of you guys gets fondled by the unicorn strange woman who likes to grab strange ass, and you don’t like it? feel free to grab her collar too. Good lord.


----------



## Cromer

EleGirl said:


> I'm 69 and retired. Served in the US Army for 4 years then had 35+ career as an engineer. I have children who are now in their 20's and have nieces & nephews who range in age fro 45 to 1 year old.
> 
> I'm not sure what part gender neutral laws are a ***** for younger people today and how those gender neutral laws differ today for people my age vs young people. Could you clarify?


One of many examples. Several years ago the Marine Corps mandated that women would have to do pull-ups on the physical fitness test just like men. Except to pass, they only had to do ONE where a man had to do THREE (both very low scores), and to get maximum points they had to do EIGHT where men had to do TWENTY. Women had about 18 months to prepare for the new test.

When the new test was implemented, over 50% of women couldn't do the one pull-up, and most who could do pull-ups couldn't approach the requirement for max points. There was a huge exodus of women from the Marine Corps. The test has a big weight on promotion opportunities. The order was rescinded.

As for law, think the changes in family court. They aren't coming fast enough but at least they are coming, and hearing women holler about how they were going to have it made only to find out that things have changed has been the norm on my side of the family. In the past in my home state, the woman always got the kids. Now the presumption is 50/50 + child support depending on arrangements, and the woman often pays now. Also, when there is a domestic disturbance call laws and policy have changed in many places, and the man is no longer the one automatically hauled away. Women find themselves being held more to account for the physical violence they perpetrate.

All in all, I think these and more changes are needed and coming, but my point is that many women love the privileges of being a woman, but not the responsibilities of being treated like a man. It took me a long time to come around, but consider me woke on the subject.


----------



## Cromer

Bluesclues said:


> How did this even get to an equality argument? If a STRANGER grabs me I am going to physically respond. Male, female. The end.


Because there is little doubt that if the gender roles had been reversed, and a man pulled the woman down, he'd been roasted on social media, shamed, and likely arrested himself for disproportionate use of force. Hence, the debate.


----------



## Bluesclues

Cromer said:


> Also, when there is a domestic disturbance call laws and policy have changed in many places, and the man is no longer the one automatically hauled away. Women find themselves being held more to account for the physical violence they perpetrate.
> 
> All in all, I think these and more changes are needed and coming, but my point is that many women love the privileges of being a woman, but not the responsibilities of being treated like a man. It took me a long time to come around, but consider me woke on the subject.


On this I agree with you. But that is all domestic issues. The OP was about stranger violations. How did this thread go from a waitress being randomly violated by a ****wad to women’s equality in push ups and domestic violence? How do you connect those dots? Do you guys, and I mean guys, not see how taking this thread to this tangent so far beyond where it started, hurts women?

Yes, women use being women to their adbatange - I have - but this isn’t one of them. Focus on the scumbag who did the crime and not the imaginary woman who didn’t.


----------



## Bluesclues

Cromer said:


> Bluesclues said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did this even get to an equality argument? If a STRANGER grabs me I am going to physically respond. Male, female. The end.
> 
> 
> 
> Because there is little doubt that if the gender roles had been reversed, and a man pulled the woman down, he'd been roasted on social media, shamed, and likely arrested himself for disproportionate use of force. Hence, the debate.
Click to expand...

Again, this is getting painful. Women don’t do this to strangers. They don’t. There is no debate. Why do men do this to strangers? That is the question. I agree women are unfair with domestic violence. But they don’t sexually assault strangers. Why do you men?


----------



## Luminous

Bluesclues said:


> Again, this is getting painful. Women don’t do this to strangers. They don’t. There is no debate. Why do men do this to strangers? That is the question. I agree women are unfair with domestic violence. But they don’t sexually assault strangers. Why do you men?


Agreed, it IS getting painful, and will probably be my final input into this topic because I need to go and do something more productive, like bang my head against a wall.

Oh, and just because you say they don't do those type of things, does not mean that may be truth. 

Two words that can solve so much, yet seem to be lacking so much...

Common sense

A pity is isn't too common these days.


----------



## EleGirl

Cromer said:


> One of many examples. Several years ago the Marine Corps mandated that women would have to do pull-ups on the physical fitness test just like men. Except to pass, they only had to do ONE where a man had to do THREE (both very low scores), and to get maximum points they had to do EIGHT where men had to do TWENTY.  Women had about 18 months to prepare for the new test.
> 
> When the new test was implemented, over 50% of women couldn't do the one pull-up, and most who could do pull-ups couldn't approach the requirement for max points. There was a huge exodus of women from the Marine Corps. The test has a big weight on promotion opportunities. The order was rescinded.


I was in the US Army for 4 years, 1976-1980. I saw some of this. I’ve never been overly athletic. But I could easily do 18 pull up. It’s ridiculous that any woman who wants to serve in the military cannot do even one pullup. A lot of this is the expectations put on girls growing up. Girls are taught that they cannot do physical things. They are taught that if they are not famine enough if they are over athletic. 

It is true that most women cannot keep up physically with men in many ways. For one, women are typically not as strong as men physically. But the standards set in the military need to be set at a level that ensures that even the women can function at the physical level that is needed for her MOS, just like men should.


Cromer said:


> As for law, think the changes in family court. They aren't coming fast enough but at least they are coming, and hearing women holler about how they were going to have it made only to find out that things have changed has been the norm on my side of the family. In the past in my home state, the woman always got the kids. Now the presumption is 50/50 + child support depending on arrangements, and the woman often pays now.


This is not new. When I divorced in 1996 after 14 years of marriage and putting my ex through medical school, there was no alimony. Custody here has been 50/50 for a long time too. Divorce laws should be gender neutral. Child custody should be 50/50 if both parents are good parents. Children need both of their parents. Before I married my son’s father, I took a class in marriage law in my state. I think that anyone who is getting married needs to do this so that they know what they are getting into.


Cromer said:


> Also, when there is a domestic disturbance call laws and policy have changed in many places, and the man is no longer the one automatically hauled away. Women find themselves being held more to account for the physical violence they perpetrate.


No woman in her right mind has a problem with this. Of course women should be held responsible for any physical violence they perpetrate.

There was a time in this country when laws in many states stated that a man could ‘correct’ his wife. That’s code for beat her up as long as he did not break too many bones. It used to be law that a man could not rape his wife. So when my BIL beat up my sister and raped her, the cops just told her that it was a domestic issue. (1968). Things have come a long way. I’ve read that domestic violence by men is now down about 50%. That’s great.

We also need to deal with domestic violence by women. I know of a few women who are violent and have even helped their husband’s bring charges against the woman. 


Cromer said:


> All in all, I think these and more changes are needed and coming, but my point is that many women love the privileges of being a woman, but not the responsibilities of being treated like a man. It took me a long time to come around, but consider me woke on the subject.


Of course, many women love the privileges of that women might have in certain circumstances. Just like men used to love it when laws favored them over women in things like marriage, divorce, child custody, etc. Shoot, a lot of men are still belly aching today because women now have much more equal rights. It’s human nature whether a person is a man or a woman.


----------



## EleGirl

I find it very interesting that a thread started to discuss a woman having her butt grabbed by a stranger has now devolved to this point. But I could not be surprised. This is pretty normal on TAM. :scratchhead:

The bottom line is that anyone who thinks it's ok to sexually molest a stranger by grabbing them like that should pretty much expect to get a very negative response.


----------



## Cromer

There is a big difference between equal rights and equal responsibility. That's what gets lost. My favorite all time movie quote is from "Father of the Bride". It's "Women have choices, men have responsibilities." So true. You can spout whatever, but the fact is that women generally don't want to accept the responsibilities that come with whatever "rights" they think they have. Think p***y pass. Many don't want to be held to account for their choices. Just facts. A cursory look at social media is all that's needed for confirmation. SAD!


----------



## 269370

EleGirl said:


> OMG, what a ridiculous statement.
> 
> So I guess in your book it was ok for the guy to do that because you have a distorted view of what Oktoberfest is. Geeezzzzzz
> 
> No that's not what Oktoberfest is. The Oktoberfest I used to go to is in Munich, Germany. People went to it to drink a lot of beer, eat a lot of worsts, schnitzel, etc. and listen to bands.



Urrgh. I wasn’t serious with my comment. 
My god, why can’t people lighten up a bit. Nobody thinks grabbing anyone’s butts is ok (except when a male butt is grabbed by a hot woman, then it’s fiiiiiiiiiiiine🤦🏼*♂. )

Even when women are seeking attention and complain why nobody pays it to them or objectifies them sexually: still not ok to grab butts. 

Or if you go to a sex/swingers party: still need consent to be grabbed.

I have been to Oktoberfest: everyone is pissed, sweaty and horny. Lots of grabbing going on. Not my thing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

SpinyNorman said:


> So you said earlier you decked a guy for grabbing you. I'm fine w/ that, but unless he was a lot bigger than you, you seem to be in violation of your own standards.




Or if he was a cutie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Bluesclues said:


> Again, this is getting painful. Women don’t do this to strangers. They don’t. There is no debate. Why do men do this to strangers? That is the question. I agree women are unfair with domestic violence. But they don’t sexually assault strangers. Why do you men?




Men generally don’t. Some idiots do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

EleGirl said:


> I find it very interesting that a thread started to discuss a woman having her butt grabbed by a stranger has now devolved to this point. But I could not be surprised. This is pretty normal on TAM. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Scratchhead" ></a>
> 
> The bottom line is that anyone who thinks it's ok to sexually molest a stranger by grabbing them like that should pretty much expect to get a very negative response.


The “Bottom line” is this a Freudian slip. 
Sorry, my bad.


----------



## MattMatt

> Have you ever experienced this?


What? Have I ever experienced an amazingly long threadjack on TAM?

Yeah. Several times.


----------



## Red Sonja

Cromer said:


> There is a big difference between equal rights and equal responsibility. That's what gets lost. My favorite all time movie quote is from "Father of the Bride". It's "Women have choices, men have responsibilities." So true. *You can spout whatever, but the fact is that women generally don't want to accept the responsibilities that come with whatever "rights" they think they have. * Think p***y pass. Many don't want to be held to account for their choices. Just facts. A cursory look at social media is all that's needed for confirmation. SAD!


OMFG, I cannot fathom how you can possible believe that in this day and age. It's offensive! :slap:

Everyone has choices and everyone has responsibilities, sure some people shirk responsibility (and choice) ... but it is *not* drawn along gender boundaries.

And, BTW that's a movie you quoted from ... you know, a fantasy story that some Hollywood writer dreamed up.


----------



## notmyrealname4

I think this was an overreaction. I'm glad she didn't let the guy get away with it; but I don't think he should have been knocked down to the ground. When I first saw this video, I remember thinking, "I wonder if the guy will sue the restaurant", or something like that.

What should she have done instead? I don't really know. Approach him and let him know that CCTV is recording what's going on and to not physically touch the staff? Would her restaurant have backed her up and called the police and given them the CCTV recording to bring charges against the guy? I don't know about that either.

The fact that the guys' partner and their children were at the restaurant too makes me feel worse than anything. I guess I'm not overly surprised; just even more disappointed over the lack of respect some men have for women, and their SO's in general.





Faithful Wife said:


> It’s so confusing. And then I always have to wonder how these guys would feel if this happened to their wife. Seems they would not want this to happen and would be enraged, but if it happens to a woman he doesn’t know, meh who cares the poor guy didn’t deserve to get thrown to the ground.



On many of the threads dealing with pornography in the past, a lot of guys do have this disconnect. That what happens in porn to those women is acceptable. But they'd never let their daughter be in porn. Or they'd be totally horrified if their mother was in porn. And though they masturbate vigorously to porn, they'd never date one of "those" women in real life.


----------



## Andy1001

notmyrealname4 said:


> I think this was an overreaction. I'm glad she didn't let the guy get away with it; but I don't think he should have been knocked down to the ground. When I first saw this video, I remember thinking, "I wonder if the guy will sue the restaurant", or something like that.
> 
> What should she have done instead? I don't really know. Approach him and let him know that CCTV is recording what's going on and to not physically touch the staff? Would her restaurant have backed her up and called the police and given them the CCTV recording to bring charges against the guy? I don't know about that either.
> 
> The fact that the guys' partner and their children were at the restaurant too makes me feel worse than anything. I guess I'm not overly surprised; just even more disappointed over the lack of respect some men have for women, and their SO's in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s so confusing. And then I always have to wonder how these guys would feel if this happened to their wife. Seems they would not want this to happen and would be enraged, but if it happens to a woman he doesn’t know, meh who cares the poor guy didn’t deserve to get thrown to the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On many of the threads dealing with pornography in the past, a lot of guys do have this disconnect. That what happens in porn to those women is acceptable. But they'd never let their daughter be in porn. Or they'd be totally horrified if their mother was in porn. And though they masturbate vigorously to porn, they'd never date one of "those" women in real life.
Click to expand...

This asswipe was actually lucky that he pulled his stunt where he did. I know places that he would have been taken outside and shown the error of his ways in a more physical sense. 
I am not a violent person by any means,I have never been involved in a bar or street fight but if this had been my girlfriend or my daughter I would have broken both his arms and nobody would have seen me doing it.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Andy1001 said:


> This asswipe was actually lucky that he pulled his stunt where he did. I know places that he would have been taken outside and shown the error of his ways in a more physical sense.
> I am not a violent person by any means,I have never been involved in a bar or street fight but if this had been my girlfriend or my daughter I would have broken both his arms and nobody would have seen me doing it.



Well, you probably are a somewhat violent person if you would break both of his arms for touching your wife or daughter's butt---if the daughter was older, not a little girl.

And I understand that there are strong emotions involved. But what he did was mostly "very disrespectful", he didn't inflict bodily harm on this lady. She's not had something done to her that she will never recover from.

I do think he should have been called out for it; perhaps by the waitress verbally confronting him, and letting him know it's all on camera.

And I'm glad he's been publicly exposed. That's probably the best punishment of all. Especially now that his SO knows he was doing this while she and the kids were sitting nearby in the restaurant.


----------



## 269370

My god, 95% of these videos are fake:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....waitress-grope-male-customer-fake-russian-bar

Nowadays it’s so easy to just shut this stuff down, without having to break anyone’s anything and put yourself in danger.
Groping is not tolerated anymore. Periods.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest

See now if that were me, I would have turned around and shouted "Stop groping my butt!" really really loudly. No physical action involved, and everyone in the restaurant would hear it, turn around, and see.


----------



## EleGirl

Cromer said:


> There is a big difference between equal rights and equal responsibility. That's what gets lost. My favorite all time movie quote is from "Father of the Bride". It's "Women have choices, men have responsibilities." So true. You can spout whatever, but the fact is that women generally don't want to accept the responsibilities that come with whatever "rights" they think they have. Think p***y pass. Many don't want to be held to account for their choices. Just facts. A cursory look at social media is all that's needed for confirmation. SAD!


Women? 

Some women don't take responsibility, but many, if not most do. You are using fiction, a movie, to make your case.

I know a lot of women who take responsibility for their lives and their family. I've supported myself since I was 15 years old and have always worked. I supported my son. I supported and raised my step children because their father accepted zero respopnslibty for them. 

I could post a pretty long list of men I know who take no responsibility for anything, not themselves, not their families.


----------



## ConanHub

SpinyNorman said:


> So you said earlier you decked a guy for grabbing you. I'm fine w/ that, but unless he was a lot bigger than you, you seem to be in violation of your own standards.


Actually, let us clear up just what my standards are. I believe women, in general, get more leeway in the groping arena than men.

I have double standards all over the map when it comes to men and women.

A man, in general, poses a physical threat while a woman, in general, does not.

I have had very unwanted unit gropes from married women and I disentangled myself easily from the situation and never felt physically threatened at all. I didn't enjoy the unwanted attention and made sure the women experienced a certain level of my displeasure as well as shame.

Men are a different story when it comes to sexual assault on any level.

If you don't understand where I'm coming from, we have no point we could build understanding from.

Now if a big and strong woman were physically imposing her will on a smaller sized man, I am absolutely in favor of him knocking the hell out of her.


----------



## SpinyNorman

ConanHub said:


> Actually, let us clear up just what my standards are. I believe women, in general, get more leeway in the groping arena than men.
> 
> I have double standards all over the map when it comes to men and women.
> 
> A man, in general, poses a physical threat while a woman, in general, does not.
> 
> I have had very unwanted unit gropes from married women and I disentangled myself easily from the situation and never felt physically threatened at all. I didn't enjoy the unwanted attention and made sure the women experienced a certain level of my displeasure as well as shame.
> 
> *Men are a different story when it comes to sexual assault on any level.*
> 
> If you don't understand where I'm coming from, we have no point we could build understanding from.
> 
> *Now if a big and strong woman were physically imposing her will on a smaller sized man, I am absolutely in favor of him knocking the hell out of her.*


The bolded parts seem to contradict each other.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Actually, let us clear up just what my standards are. I believe women, in general, get more leeway in the groping arena than men.
> 
> 
> 
> I have double standards all over the map when it comes to men and women.
> 
> 
> 
> A man, in general, poses a physical threat while a woman, in general, does not.
> 
> 
> 
> I have had very unwanted unit gropes from married women and I disentangled myself easily from the situation and never felt physically threatened at all. I didn't enjoy the unwanted attention and made sure the women experienced a certain level of my displeasure as well as shame.
> 
> 
> 
> Men are a different story when it comes to sexual assault on any level.
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't understand where I'm coming from, we have no point we could build understanding from.
> 
> 
> 
> Now if a big and strong woman were physically imposing her will on a smaller sized man, I am absolutely in favor of him knocking the hell out of her.



But how? It’s much easier to smack around a tiny woman than a massive one, who could kill you. Why would you want to ‘knock out’ a woman that is stronger than you? Or, better, how could you? If she’s stronger than you, then you couldn’t.

Why not, instead of smacking anyone around, just tell them to cut it out and if they don’t, get the police to do it. There’s a system for this....people should use it more often.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly

I feel like what she did was appropriate. He wasn't physically harmed but now his wife and kids know that he is a jerk.


----------



## ConanHub

SpinyNorman said:


> The bolded parts seem to contradict each other.


They go well considering the rest of my post.

Men and women, who sexually assault while using force to affect the assault, are in different universes as far as real world attempts and results.

The ratio isn't even close.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> But how? It’s much easier to smack around a tiny woman than a massive one, who could kill you. Why would you want to ‘knock out’ a woman that is stronger than you? Or, better, how could you? If she’s stronger than you, then you couldn’t.
> 
> Why not, instead of smacking anyone around, just tell them to cut it out and if they don’t, get the police to do it. There’s a system for this....people should use it more often.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nah,just break his ****ing arms.
It’s quicker all round.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> But how? It’s much easier to smack around a tiny woman than a massive one, who could kill you. Why would you want to ‘knock out’ a woman that is stronger than you? Or, better, how could you? If she’s stronger than you, then you couldn’t.
> 
> Why not, instead of smacking anyone around, just tell them to cut it out and if they don’t, get the police to do it. There’s a system for this....people should use it more often.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm for self defense and contacting authorities. Police most often can't protect you. They mostly get to the scene in time to try and clean up whatever mess the criminal left.


----------



## Wolfman1968

PigglyWiggly said:


> I feel like what she did was appropriate. *He wasn't physically harmed* but now his wife and kids know that he is a jerk.


I dunno. He could get himself one of those "slip and fall" attorneys that advertise on late-night TV or during the Jerry Springer show.


----------



## ConanHub

Hahaha!!! Just watched the video.

These dumbasses at least deserve slapped!


----------



## frustratedinphx

I finally watched it too. That dumba$$ guy looks drunk AF. I think her advantage on him was being sober. If he was stupid enough to pull that sh*t, he should be coordinated enough to withstand a sneak attack. That MF deserved what he got! Loser. “Timber!” 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------

