# "Her Orgasm is HER Responsibility" - MMSLP



## CASE_Sensitive (Jul 22, 2013)

When I read this passage in MMSLP, it was a bit of an eye opener for me. Almost every bit of self help guide books out there talk about what men are doing wrong, what they are not doing enough of, what we need to do to change. This was like a breath of fresh air to me. I read it as you need to share the responsibility and she needs to work on it as much as you do. Every guy wants to make their special other scream, clench, moan, etc, etc, but you both have to want it and both work for it.

Anyways, just thought I'd share a lesson that struck a chord with me today.
Cheerio


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

but lots of women are too embarrassed to comunicate what they like or they just don't know .
So while agree with the general concept it just dosn't always pan out as being the right way by just blindly getting yours and not trying to get her one.

friutloop

Ps I like fruitloops better than cheeios


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Yes, this is true.
1. She has to want to orgasm.
2. She has to know how to orgasm.
3. She has to be able to communicate to you how to help her get there.

But for a lot of women, all that has to take place to go from #1 to #2 can take a long time. Most of us assume if 1 is true then 2 must also be true. Not True!

But then to go from #2 to #3, especially if the relationship didn't really start at #1, that's where the man comes in and can be of great help.

Obviously, once she reaches #3, your cooperation is not only appreciated, more then expected, but by goly demanded!


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> but lots of women are too embarrassed to comunicate what they like or they just don't know .
> So while agree with the general concept it just dosn't always pan out as being the right way by just blindly getting yours and not trying to get her one.
> 
> friutloop
> ...


And lots of people, men and women both, really buy into and help perpetuate the Princessification of the World


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

samyeagar said:


> And lots of people, men and women both, really buy into and help perpetuate the Princessification of the World


your preaching to the choir.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And lots of people, men and women both, really buy into and help perpetuate the Princessification of the World


UGH that is so true! I never called my girls princess and corrected those who made that mistake in front of me. I was indecently unprepared for life's and life with a husband. 

Can you look at your daughter and say, "when you grow up I want you to have the best relationship possible and that includes having great sex. I want that for you!"


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, this is true.
> 1. She has to want to orgasm.
> 2. She has to know how to orgasm.
> 3. She has to be able to communicate to you how to help her get there.
> ...


I thought the comment was rather abrasive. But what I think he meant was to make a remark to counter the particular men who put all their energy into making sure she is pleased, but not making sure he himself is pleased. It's draining after a while.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You're right Trey. I didn't intend to come off as abrasive. My apologies.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I read another thread about all these men who *only* care about the womans orgasm and I have definitely never been with one of these men! I think it would be too much pressure on me to always orgasm.

But, I don't know if I agree with 'her orgasm is her responsibility'. I don't think his orgasm is his responsibility unless he is masturbating. Isn't it kind of "our" responsibility to help the other partner achieve orgasm if that is what they want?


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## Work-In-Progress (May 21, 2013)

I think Athol's comments come across a bit the wrong way, but I agree. I'm one of those guys that gets obsessed with my wife having an O. A lot of times it really ruins sex somewhat. I feel bad if she doesn't, and even if she says she doesn't want to, I still bug her about going after it anyway (with a vibrator). His comments on how a woman needs to know her own body, and how she needs to be pleased really hit home. My wife is one that won't touch herself at all, so she really has no clue what gets her going. So I tend to get down on myself if she doesn't have one. And her not being able to help me, help her, doesn't help either.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I really don't like to have any pressure to O. The minute I feel like I'm expected to O it just gets harder to get there. As it is I feel like I'm doing calculus while riding a unicycle trying to get the O sometimes. That's why I'm not very good at dirty talk during sex, I'm so focused on what my body is feeling, the minute I try to have a conversation I lose all momentum towards an O.

It took H many years to not feel disappointed if I didn't finish, in fact I still think he's a little disappointed if I don't O he just doesn't say it out loud anymore. As long as he doesn't leave me hanging on the edge I'm alright with whatever happens. I absolutely would not want him trying to finish me off with a vibrator if I wasn't feeling it. That would be a little too controlling for me.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You're right Trey. I didn't intend to come off as abrasive. My apologies.


It was an Athol Kay comment from MMSL. I seem to remember seeing that one. Some of his stuff was abrasive and contriversial.

The key points was that it's OK to get your needs met, and you should. Also many of the males who get into positions where they reach out for the information in the book, are stuck in a position where they are considering the needs of others much more than themself. 

It's ok to consider the needs of others and you should. But you cannot deprive yourself.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You're right Trey. I didn't intend to come off as abrasive. My apologies.


It was an Athol Kay comment from MMSL. I seem to remember seeing that one. Some of his stuff was abrasive and contriversial.

The key points was that it's OK to get your needs met, and you should. Also many of the males who get into positions where they reach out for the information in the book, are stuck in a position where they are considering the needs of others much more than themself. 

It's ok to consider the needs of others and you should. But you cannot deprive yourself.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I have seen this quote several times here and I don't get it. There is at least a huge double standard - judging by the chest thumping I have seen here about men getting their women off. 

While I agree that communication is the most important factor - probably specifically letting a lover know you will not O from PIV, that there needs to be sustained clitoral stimulation - someone else learning to get you off is a different learning curve than what you can do for yourself.

Perhaps I'm just mincing words. My orgasm has been my responsibility for 20 years now. I would like for someone else to learn to do it for a change. 

I imagine this passage means something different to someone not coming from my.perspective. Not trying to be argumentative - I just don't care for the passage.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

MissScarlett said:


> Perhaps I'm just mincing words. My orgasm has been my responsibility for 20 years now. I would like for someone else to learn to do it for a change.
> 
> I imagine this passage means something different to someone not coming from my.perspective. Not trying to be argumentative - I just don't care for the passage.


I think it revolves around what is meant by, "responsibility." From what I've read here, the ladies of TAM all seem to be very much in touch with their own sexuality.

But there are people out there who have never touched themselves; never had an orgasm; never thought about it and expect their partner to magically know what to do even though they don't really know themselves.


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## snerg (Apr 10, 2013)

I guess I am somewhat of an odd ball.

When my SO and I where getting to the point of having sex, I sat her down and had a long conversation.

I asked her if she ever came. I asked her if she knew how to make herself come.

Awkward - yes! Informative - definitely!

I made it very clear that she should not ever fake O with me. Don't ever try to protect my male ego in this area. She needed to take the time to train me on how to make her cum.

In turn, she also let me know that sometimes there was no way she was ever going to cum during that session. It was going to be about me and that it was okay with her.

It comes down to trust, communication, a willingness to give/receive as well as an understanding that it won't be 100% rainbows and unicorns every single time.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MissScarlett said:


> Perhaps I'm just mincing words. My orgasm has been my responsibility for 20 years now. I would like for someone else to learn to do it for a change.
> 
> I imagine this passage means something different to someone not coming from my.perspective. Not trying to be argumentative - I just don't care for the passage.


What the passage was getting at was giving men permission to feel OK if she didn't orgasm. As men, we tend to focus on orgasm. I have climaxed 100% of the time I have had sex. That's how I know I'm finished.

Women are different. Women won't always climax. And that's OK. A woman can not feel in the mood for climaxing and still want her husband to. As a man, I didn't really understand that in the past. If my wife told me that we could have sex, but she wasn't going to climax, then I would back out and say that I would just wait until she was more in the mood. I thought sex without climaxing must be awful.

But it's not. Sex without climaxing can be very pleasurable. Plus, it's a way for wives to provide for their husbands' needs. So, now, if my wife makes me the same offer, I accept. It's OK for sex to be more about me than her, or us, from time to time.

Also, women must be active when they want orgasms. If a wife just starfishes in bed and then doesn't climax, well that's not really her husband's fault.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Snerg, yes you are an oddball, based on my experience and my circle of friends.

But that is the best kind of oddball. Bravo for insisting on good communication from the get go. How's that relationship going now?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> What the passage was getting at was giving men permission to feel OK if she didn't orgasm. As men, we tend to focus on orgasm. I have climaxed 100% of the time I have had sex. That's how I know I'm finished.
> 
> Women are different. Women won't always climax. And that's OK. A woman can not feel in the mood for climaxing and still want her husband to. As a man, I didn't really understand that in the past. If my wife told me that we could have sex, but she wasn't going to climax, then I would back out and say that I would just wait until she was more in the mood. I thought sex without climaxing must be awful.
> 
> ...


I hesitate to go down this road but obviously not enough to stop my post here.

Yes, men need to come to the bedroom with understanding that for some women or for some instances, HER orgasm isn't HIS goal. 

Actually, Her orgasm shouldn't really be the goal at all. *Sensual Sex to communicate love, desire for her, pleasure in her beauty and in her body, pleasure in touching her body because it both brings him pleasure to touch and brings him pleasure to see her reaction, and finally sex to communicate the passion he feel toward her is the goal.*

But both men and women experience anxiety because if all of the above is being done right, communicated well, then the natural consequence would be her orgasm, under most circumstances. When that doesn't happen, something is wrong. It has been my experience and reinforced through TAM, that men particularly are not very good at identifying what's wrong because women are particularly good at hiding and have a very hard time being sexually honest.

The men of TAM being an exception to the rule, a lot of men go about sex and completely exclude the emotions that should be first and foremost. Considering _nearly everyone_ has early sexual experiences that are pretty laughable in terms of quality...Men look back and think, "boy I had no idea what I was doing" while women look back and lament how little they knew about their own bodies but also what a fumbling joke those early experiences were. And agree, he had no idea what he was doing.

A man who feels inadequate if he doesn't bring his woman to orgasm, or isn't sure if he is or not, or maybe just discovered she had been faking, needs not to blame his sexual prowess, but blame the poor communication they both have and the sexual inhibitions his woman has.

Considering most women begin their sexual lives under a shroud of secrecy, insecurity, ignorance and even fear, a man could (and I believe women expect him to) take the leadership role and assert the communication regarding sex. When he fails to do that, she assumes he hasn't noticed or doesn't care.


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## TheStranger (Jan 14, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes, this is true.
> 1. She has to want to orgasm.
> 2. She has to know how to orgasm.
> 3. She has to be able to communicate to you how to help her get there.
> ...


Nicely written. My wife is not even an #1. It her choice in the end but I still feel like a failure. It is now a fantasy just like some men imagine threesomes I imagine making her cum. It's sad really.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm so sorry Stranger. I don't know about your situation; will she talk about it?


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

I understand the concept but can't make myself not view it as my responsibility. I've tried but can't make myself look at it that way. Probably got something to do with my personality type. SA would know the answer to that. I am not as studied on that as she is. Would actually like to see her take on it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Stonewall said:


> I understand the concept but can't make myself not view it as my responsibility. I've tried but can't make myself look at it that way. Probably got something to do with my personality type. SA would know the answer to that. I am not as studied on that as she is. Would actually like to see her take on it.


Yep... my husband would go to the ends of the earth to get me there - *IF* he had to...he's told me he gets more satisfaction out of me getting mine over him getting his...(hence my last thread)...

I am geared like a MAN I guess..* I WANT MY ORGASM...every single time*. .... This has always been very very easy for me ...he never had to work at it...only get me going with some foreplay - then hold on... Sexually....we just flowed...I point to this being why we just never talked about -for so many years. 

Anyway...I do feel the woman needs to say something, position her body, do whatever she can do to verbally assert, or physical motion him to do what feels amazing...so she can effectively get hers..it can't all be on the man.....

I was quiet... but during foreplay for instance...If I liked something one way over another... I would always let him know....and put myself in positions, lead him to what feels good to me, as I know no matter what that was, he was "cumming" for the ride. 

If / when he slipped before me, I'd tell him outright...He was going to do that again, I'd lightly pound on him (Playfully) saying "NO , NO, I wanted that [email protected]#" Demanding horny woman here.....Not that he minded -he was happy to DO IT AGAIN back in the day... Today...not so much.

But yes, women need to know their bodies, and guide their men to please them in what will give them the highest pleasure, to bring yourselves over the top!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> * I WANT MY ORGASM...every single time*.


:iagree: I understand that many women feel quite differently about this, but if I felt he wasn't taking sufficient interest in my orgasm, I'd likely just roll out of bed, walk straight out the door, and never look back. 

Does MMSL also mention that far too many men think they are superb lovers because they always get their orgasm, and blame the woman for her failure to orgasm after a few minutes of porn-style banging?




SimplyAmorous said:


> But yes, women need to know their bodies, and guide their men to please them in what will give them the highest pleasure, to bring yourselves over the top!


:iagree:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

always_alone said:


> Does MMSL also mention that far too many men think they are superb lovers because they always get their orgasm, and blame the woman for her failure to orgasm after a few minutes of porn-style banging?


No. It blames the woman for her failure to climax if she's laying in bed motionless, like a starfish, and expecting her husband to magically understand her non-verbal, non-physical requests. Under those circumstances, it's her fault.

Also, it tries to stop men from rejecting their wives' advances when the wife isn't particularly interested in climaxing. I know that, if my wife had a rough day at work, there's no amount of work that I, or any vibrator, can do to make her climax. So, if we have sex, I don't go after that lost cause. Rather than reject her offer for sex that doesn't result in her climax, I will accept, worry about myself, and she can enjoy herself without climaxing.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

As a person who is just learning to have an orgasm with another person - I maintain it needs to be both persons responsibility. 

I started out showing g H what I needed to do to get there. Him doing that same thing felt much different, it was not effective. It still took weeks to find something that was effective. And, in the reverse, if I tried those things on myself they wouldn't feel the same. 

Lets ignore my situation wit H because he has been very cooperative and invested in finding something that would work.

Aside from him my sexual experience was comprised of men who never asked and didn't seem to care about the female orgasm, period. This is still all I keep reading from this quote. 

It has to be both people.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> No.


Too bad! A section on that might go a long way to promoting the end goals of the book: "doing it like rabbits". 

Maybe even more so than sections telling men not to care about their wives' orgasm.

But then, I don't think I've ever met a man that would actually choose not to have sex because she might not climax, and can't really fathom why a woman would want sex without even at least trying for an orgasm ... so YMMV.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> It has to be both people.


:iagree: 

Imagine the reverse scenario, where the man is said to be solely responsible for his orgasm. That would mean the woman wouldn't have to do anything to help him along, wouldn't it? And men would have no right to complain about women lying there like logs, or refusing oral or whatever other sex acts they didn't want? 

And since men are responsible for his and women responsible for hers, they should both just, what, get themselves off without regard to the other?

What kind of sex is that?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

always_alone said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Imagine the reverse scenario, where the man is said to be solely responsible for his orgasm. That would mean the woman wouldn't have to do anything to help him along, wouldn't it? And men would have no right to complain about women lying there like logs, or refusing oral or whatever other sex acts they didn't want?
> 
> ...


Exactly - we are in agreement. Of course I can see people in different situations would interpret this differently - which is fine. I know for some the orgasms come very easily (no pun intended) - but damn. For others its like trying to dock the space station. In a fair world it should not be so difficult!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

In a fair world we as parents would encourage our children, of both genders, to fully and freely explore their bodies by actively teaching.

I know other parents have done what Ive done, as we explain to our daughters about their periods we also explain about their clitoris, where it is and what it does. By the time they are dating we should be explaining the various acceptable methods of sex play beginning with kissing, breast touching, genital touching, oral sex, penetrative sex and PIV as well as anal. But the VAST majority of parents explain periods, PIV and then say don't do it. 

If we actively taught sex to our kids, along with the values we hold dear associated with sex, our children will walk into marriage prepared to cope with the huge learning curve of relational sex.

:end rant:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MissScarlett said:


> Aside from him my sexual experience was comprised of men who never asked and didn't seem to care about the female orgasm, period. This is still all I keep reading from this quote.


What you, and some others, seem to be doing is taking the one statement out of a much larger passage, viewing it through the prism of your personal experience, and then arguing against that straw man.

Nowhere in the relevant passage of MMSLP, or anywhere else in the book, does Kay argue that women should be treated as nothing more than masturbatory aids for men. If that's what you are inferring from the one sentence of the book, then you're way off base.

When a husband is selfless to a fault, telling him to be a little more selfish isn't a bad thing. It won't result in a monster who doesn't care about women. It will only result in a husband who puts his own needs on par with his wife's.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I see a lot of circular logic on this thread .

A woman who is in tune with her sexuality knows within the first few minutes of sex if she's going to have an orgasm from this encounter and how powerful her orgasm will be.
Sometimes even before sex , she already has in her mind exactly what she wants this time.
At least my wife does and she whispers it to me.

She guides her man's strokes / efforts in the best direction to achieve her desire.

A woman does not need coitus to orgasm. There are women , includig my wife I've been with who can have mini orgasms from having bodies and breasts especially, massaged. 
The trick is that she tells me just how much pressure to apply.

Effective communication, whether its a whisper , or a pleasurable sound, is the key.

That is what I think is meant by " her orgasm is her responsibility."


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## Work-In-Progress (May 21, 2013)

OK, so some people don't misconstrue what has been written on MMSL, here is the entire passage from the blog and the book. You can clearly see he is not saying it's just up to the woman to have an O, but she has to communicate so they can reach it together.

_It’s a nice guy trap to think that you are somehow responsible for your wife’s orgasm.
The wife’s orgasms are up to her. It doesn’t mean she has to masturbate after being pumped and dumped on her side of the bed by an oaf of a husband night after night, it means that she can’t just lie there while you expect to magically divine and perform what it takes to get her off.
It used to be common that a woman lied to a man and faked an orgasm to let him think he was a wonderful lover, or simply to have the beast stop doing whatever the hell he was trying to do. Nowadays that’s just silly. The whole Harry Met Sally Orgasm In The Diner thing isn’t classic comedy, it’s epic fail. It’s literally shouting “I’m really skilled at getting myself bad sex that I don’t like”.
If she wants an orgasm she needs to take responsibility for them and say what works and what doesn’t and co-create them with you. If she doesn’t want an orgasm on a particular night, you shouldn’t feel the need to give her one. If she wants three, then work together for that. If she just wants you to have your fun and not try for an orgasm herself then just go for it. If you don’t go for it you’re on some level actually rejecting her sexually. _


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> I see a lot of circular logic on this thread .
> 
> A woman who is in tune with her sexuality knows within the first few minutes of sex if she's going to have an orgasm from this encounter and how powerful her orgasm will be.
> Sometimes even before sex , she already has in her mind exactly what she wants this time.
> ...


Cm does way better than me in being diplomatic. I would say in my crude English that yousall shod **** yaself, if im allowed to speak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My understanding is when it's said a woman is responsible for her own orgasm it doesn't mean her partner can just jump on do his thing and get off without consideration of her feelings. I understand it to mean if she wants to orgasm she has to make sure she does. That could mean holding her partner accountable for bringing her to orgasm. In which case she needs to communicate her expectation to him.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

PHTlump said:


> When a husband is selfless to a fault, telling him to be a little more selfish isn't a bad thing. It won't result in a monster who doesn't care about women. It will only result in a husband who puts his own needs on par with his wife's.


Gotta agree with this ...I outta know... my husband is one of those selfless ones and we've had a # of talkings, even me arguing with him to BE MORE SELFISH IN SEX... a book like MMSL would never hurt his type....

One time I was getting out of hand... railing at him to be more of a Son of a B in bed.. realized how utterly ridiculous this argument was...and we started ..... just saying.. there are such men !

Found this on the net to explain what I was trying to get across ..


> *** *I think a lot of people get turned on at the thought of being fiercely sexually desired and get off on their partner's pleasure. Thus they need a partner who "selfishly" desires them and takes pleasure in them rather than self-sacrificingly catering to their needs*.
> 
> It's fun to see how your partner "wants" sex -- that's why you're together, right? The 'come on, please me!' look is one of the hottest parts of sex for me. It's so easy to feel good, sexy, and horny at the look of a partner who's so into it she/he doesn't even seem to notice you're there doing something -- a partner who'll say 'why did ya STOP??!' if you even dare stop.
> 
> Indeed, one of the beautiful things about sex is how much the other's pleasure triggers your own. One might imagine it was made to foster harmony.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

If your a mature enough adult to be engaging in a sexual relationship, then you should also be mature enough to be able to verbally express you needs, want, desires, likes, dislikes, etc. to your partner.

The first responsibility for having enjoyable sex is on the individual, M or W. Since this threads Q was about a woman's O, I will say that if a woman is not able to reach O, she needs to tell her partner that, and work together to make it happen. (Best "work" BTW that I can think of ! LOL) The worse thing a woman can do is to always "fake" Orgasm.

A couple of weeks ago I had this discussion with my wife after I read an article about women faking. Her response was that :"Well that's their fault for being unsatisfied. How is the man supposed to know if you don't tell him ? He can't read minds."

There are still some women who think that if just find their KISA, he will magically make all their sexual dreams come true, without them having to say anything. Only works in stories.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

greenfern said:


> I read another thread about *all these men who *only* care about the womans orgasm and I have definitely never been with one of these men!* I think it would be too much pressure on me to always orgasm.
> 
> But, I don't know if I agree with 'her orgasm is her responsibility'. I don't think his orgasm is his responsibility unless he is masturbating. Isn't it kind of "our" responsibility to help the other partner achieve orgasm if that is what they want?


*Warning: mega post to follow. This is one of my "ticks". lol*

I was one of those men. Let me tell you about the biggest sexual revelation in my LIFE. For years and years I thought if she didn't c*m, I failed. Every sexual encounter was a final exam, with the feeling that if I don't pass this exam... if I don't get her off, I'm flunked out of school. It was ALL on me.

As a man, there is sooo much cultural pressure to rock her world and be a sexual god. A man being "good in bed" is bragged on openly among friends, in movies and tv and the man who doesn't get her off is openly dissed. But what is the measure?? How do you know if you're good or bad? To my mind, this was orgasms. My thinking was that all of these sources, these c*cky men, these playful women, and popular culture... were seemingly describing being able to give women massive, and multiple orgasms. This became my #1 sexual hang-up, so much so that I'd get her off and struggle to be able to get off myself.

While I became great at all things not PIV - the literal sex god that I thought was necessary just to avoid a negative reputation, during PIV, I used to struggle. And for some reason, PIV meant more than anything else... probably whatever I did that wasn't a lock to make her c*m I would have made the most important aspect to sex - such was my broken thinking. My mind was everywhere but where it should have been... trying to manage everything "just right". Am I putting to much of my weight on her? Is this pace good? Is it time to change it up? Run your hands over her and grab her body... don't just hump... pull her hair... toss her body around a bit. In my head, it was this ongoing complex instruction set - a mechanical imitation of what I suppose comes naturally to other people. It wasn't spur of the moment thought... everything was premeditated. Everything was conscious thought... thought even went toward making sure nothing seemed mechanical or repetitive! I literally brained my way through sex and ate myself alive with insecurity. Should I switch positions now? I've got to dial it down a min... this pace is wearing me out; I need to distract her with something else while I rest a little bit. OMG... am I sweating too much? Ugh... she's not making much sound... is she even getting anything out of this? She's making too much sound... is she faking it to get it over? Then I'd move her into another position... is she comfortable? It just never stopped. A million thoughts a second.

Then if she doesn't get off, even if I'd already gotten her off orally before PIV... devastation. I wouldn't say anything, but in my head I was imagining all the nasty things that would be said about me to her girlfriends; wondering if she'd have gotten off if I had a bigger D... ; wondering if I was the worst she'd ever been with. Really acidic insecure thoughts. Most of the time if she didn't get off PIV and the length of time was getting obnoxious, I would willfully not finish as well; or having willfully kept myself from orgasm for so long, I wouldn't be able to! When I stopped, I'd still be affectionate and wouldn't make a big deal of the fact neither of us came. Yet this was generally displeasing to the women I was with too! "Did you even c*m?" they'd say. I was baffled. I never said anything or let it show, but my brain seethed. The nerve!! The hypocrisy! You're unhappy I didn't c*m? You didn't c*m!! You're unhappy about that too (totally in my imagination anyway)! 

I was a MESS. I met my wife to be, and lo and behold she couldn't get off from oral... ever. My ace in the hole... my guaranteed way to at least be "okay"... was now worthless. She could get herself off one specific way, on her stomach, that was impossible for me to replicate. W... T... F... is what I'm thinking. Its now ALL on my PIV performance. Thankfully, she got off vaginally fairly easily. But when she didn't, she would say something like she didn't really care if she had an orgasm or not. I think my head exploded. I used to think she was lying to protect my feelings. Anytime she didn't orgasm, I heard this or similar again. The translation that reached my brain: "I'm so bad at this, she doesn't even care that she didn't orgasm." I kept this contained. Acidic.

Later in our marriage it eventually came out that she felt like I tried too hard to get her to orgasm! Again, my head exploded, but I verbalized nothing. So I'm bad if I underperform, and I'm bad if I try too hard - regardless of outcome. If she's not making enough sound, she's bored. If she's making a lot of sound, she's faking. There is no winning in my real and imagined world! She would talk about how she was fine not having an orgasm. I interpreted "I'm not really interested in sex." She would say she didn't like feeling like she had to orgasm for me to finish. Say what?? I'm expected to finish, but my expecting her to finish is too much pressure on her?

Thus, my sex life felt like a game of whack-a-mole I could never win. What works today, might not work tomorrow... nothing in the world might work tomorrow! Do well today, and I've set up tomorrow's expectations (at least in my mind). I got so bad that if I graded my performance subpar, and she said "I loved it!", the meaning I received was, "I love you!", in spite of sh*tty sex. A feely thing that I hated. I wanted to master the physical act. It turns out, there's no real way to master the physical act... ethereal things like demeanor, charisma and blinding confidence completely alter any given physical component. Have these hard to define things right, and the smallest thing is good. Have them wrong, and the best touch does nothing. It drove me insane.

If there was a bad way I could spin it, it was spun. I never said anything, but it was classic self-esteem and overachiever issues. "Okay" was not good enough. Nothing in fact, would ever be good enough. Great would be undervalued and bad would be exaggerated. Yet, I wanted sex, and was obsessed with being "perfect" and someone brag worthy. For the most part, I was a technically EXCELLENT lover. I could write a detailed sexual manual... a literal map to making a woman orgasm in a myriad different ways and intensities, a thousand ways to drive her insane with setup and foreplay and touch; I was an encyclopedia of books... from tantic sex to oral to massage... and yet, I was STILL failing. It wasn't my ability my body or my technique.... my problem was *having the wrong goals and using achievement of those goals to counter unjustified insecurity*. That was even more important to me than my overall enjoyment of sex.

It took me until my 6th year of marriage before I had mostly gotten this thinking unraveled - ironically shortly before we had our first kid. It took hearing it again and again from multiple female friends (platonic). Discussing it in IRC chatrooms and early forums. To this day I have to sort of mentally disarm myself and just have fun. Whereas it sounds terrible to most people, I have to tell myself to "not care too much"... "do what YOU want" ... "don't worry too much about her... let her take care of herself", just to keep myself from going back to being obsessed with how she feels and obsessed with my performance or how I think I'm perceived.

That is my only unusual sexual hang-up. It's still alive in me, hiding in those dark corners, but its something I consciously try to suffocate.

A woman on this forum posted something, I think it was Faithful Wife, saying that a woman sometimes WANTS to be used for the man's pleasure. Fits perfectly inline with the baffling resistance I received to being a "woman pleaser"; I know it today, and yet reading it still hits me like a brick to the head. I've integrated this idea into my thinking, but it still occasionally makes smoke come out of my ears. She doesn't want it to be all about her... sometimes she wants him to take and just get his pleasure from her.

Every other guy on the planet does this instinctively? To me this was a huge revelation. The way I once thought, doing so would have been the definition of selfish. I read so much about "lazy husbands" on here that I often wonder what the heck was wrong with me that I ended up so far on the opposite end of the scale. Are these men just dripping confidence or what? Mine comes from objective proof that I'm good at something... though I gather from therapy that this isn't right.

I have a certain degree of envy toward those people who are able to keep their brains out of their way. I overthink EVERYTHING. So much so that half of my hobbies are adrenaline inducing physical activities where you don't have time to think. Its the only way I ever have quiet. If you think about anything at all on the racetrack, even what you're doing, you're going to crash. From that perspective, doing 150 mph on a motorcycle down the front straight going into turn 1 in the rain is literally the most calm moment in my life. People think I'm an adrenaline junky... maybe so, but I wonder if I just prefer the quiet of not being able to think.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8, that was very insightful with a lot of take home messages for both husbands and wives. But my favorite line: "Thus, my sex life felt like a game of whack-a-mole I could never win." 

Do you think there is anything your wife could have done or said to help aliviate your punishing inner thoughts?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> *Warning: mega post to follow. This is one of my "ticks". lol*
> 
> I was one of those men. Let me tell you about the biggest sexual revelation in my LIFE. For years and years I thought if she didn't c*m, I failed. Every sexual encounter was a final exam, with the feeling that if I don't pass this exam... if I don't get her off, I'm flunked out of school. It was ALL on me.
> 
> ...


Sounds like an adrenaline junkie to me. It's your life and your comfort level with the risk that you take on.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Do you think there is anything your wife could have done or said to help aliviate your punishing inner thoughts?


Thank you Anon.

There's nothing she could have said that I think I would have believed, no.

Like I said, its a weird self-esteem over achiever thing - deriving your value from your accomplishments and desiring to jump out the window if you fail, or just beating your head against the wall to a bloody pulp in second attempts. Therapy probably would have helped, but no one would have known.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I've had overnight to think this over. Yesterday I found myself getting so angry and so worked up over this topic that it was affecting my day.

The first reason, I think, is my perception that everyone on this board knows what they are doing (sexually) except for me. Perhaps many are sex starved but seem to still have a reasonable grasp on how things go. Perhaps I find this embarrassing.

Secondly I think it is just too close to the truth. I'm a 43 year old who has always loved sex - but when it comes to sexual maturity I have been stuck at age 22 (which is when I started having sex) for 21 years.

It's so difficult and so embarrassing to try and change something like this 20 years too late. It's difficult to come from the world of faking where my H 'got me off' every single time - to the reality of it only happening every now and again. He probably preferred the way it was because now he can go to town trying to make it happen and sometimes it just doesn't.

It's difficult to say out loud what I would like from him. I fear him saying no or this has gone too far or I'm not worth the trouble. (He has not said any of these things thus far.) My vibrator consistently got me off for 10 years, but it did not touch the rest of my body, it didn't hold me and whisper in my ear, it sure didn't finger me or anything like that - things that I'm doing with my husband for the first time. 

When I broke down to him and told him I'd never had an orgasm with him or anyone else - I would have sworn it was 100% his fault because he had never tried anything new and was relatively ignorant about the female orgasm (which yes, I totally realize this was my responsibility to clue him into if he didn't know before he met me.) Come to find out it was a shared problem, but the amount that I played into me never getting off is huge. 

It's difficult (for me) to learn to be an adult when it comes to sex. I look around me and really feel like I'm the only strange one out there - that everyone else figured this out long ago. How can I be this age and just be learning these things? It's so embarrassing that it makes me furious.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

MissScarlett said:


> It's so difficult and so embarrassing to try and change something like this 20 years too late.


The status quo has a powerful lure. Change brings uncertainty. It might be better, but it might be worse. It's perfectly normal to fear change and uncertainty and prefer a safe, stable, known, flawed reality.



> It's difficult to come from the world of faking where my H 'got me off' every single time - to the reality of it only happening every now and again. He probably preferred the way it was because now he can go to town trying to make it happen and sometimes it just doesn't.


I doubt it. Obviously the best case scenario is for you to reliably climax with your husband. But, absent that, I imagine your husband would prefer the red pill reality of a wife who is struggling with climaxing, but wants to work on it, over the blue pill fantasy where his wife fakes it and never gives him a chance to give the woman he loves more than all others a satisfying sex life.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I've had overnight to think this over. Yesterday I found myself getting so angry and so worked up over this topic that it was affecting my day.
> 
> The first reason, I think, is my perception that everyone on this board knows what they are doing (sexually) except for me. Perhaps many are sex starved but seem to still have a reasonable grasp on how things go. Perhaps I find this embarrassing.
> 
> ...



Oh Ms Scarlet, please don't beat yourself up. What you are going through is not uncommon.

I think you are incredibly brave and extraordinarily helpful as you chronicle your journey! You must realize how much you are helping the hundreds of other women who come to this forum with the exact same problem, too ashamed to actually talk to anyone, but desperate to figure it out.

You have to ask yourself if maybe some of the anger is really about you letting go of the need to please others and make them happy, as you learn what pleases you and makes you happy?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> I've had overnight to think this over. Yesterday I found myself getting so angry and so worked up over this topic that it was affecting my day.
> 
> The first reason, I think, is my perception that everyone on this board knows what they are doing (sexually) except for me. Perhaps many are sex starved but seem to still have a reasonable grasp on how things go. Perhaps I find this embarrassing.
> 
> ...


WOW !! Such a powerful and honest post. I commend you for you honesty. Its not easy for any of us to reveal this part of ourselves for so many reasons.

Yes, you unfortunately denied yourself certain amounts of pleasure over the years, but you are still with your H, and are only 43, and can have many good years of sexual satisfaction ahead of you if you so desire.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Thanks for the support, and I think I'm so pissed off because it shouldn't be as hard as it feels. (That's what she said.) I gave up the faking but now the urge is to tell him every time - it's not going to happen. Don't try! Because I am still full of fear that he will "feel bad" or I will become a turn off because I am difficult to please or he will wish he had the Former Miss Scarlett back, who was really not so much trouble in the sack. 

However, I am becoming quite selfish with sex I find. While I fear rejection from him I am not all that concerned about if he likes something or not. I thought blow job frequency would go up if he was returning the favor - but it has gone down because I want oral from him AND I want penetration. In that order. (Editing to add - I always think 'he will go down on me and then I will go down on him - it's fair - but when it gets to that point I am like f-that, I want sex too.)

I'm doing well with talking during the act and describing how good everything feels - but still having issues asking for more new things from him. I fear sounding critical. 

Well, good news, we are going away next week with no children and I'm really looking forward to lots of sex.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

""""However, I am becoming quite selfish with sex I find. While I fear rejection from him I am not all that concerned about if he likes something or not. I thought blow job frequency would go up if he was returning the favor - but it has gone down because I want oral from him AND I want penetration. In that order. (Editing to add - I always think 'he will go down on me and then I will go down on him - it's fair - but when it gets to that point I am like f-that, I want sex too.)""""

Call me selfish then!

I hope you share your first paragraph with your H. You two need to be vigilant about communicating all your feelings.

Now that my vagina seems to not allow PIV, H has been getting more completed BJ. Seems like such a waste of a perfectly lovely erection...


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Speaking from past experience:

It was a turn-off to be with a man that is always asking, “Did you come yet.” Or who is obviously stressing about it. I hate to be vulgar here but (Honey, if you have to ask, you should know that I didn’t otherwise we’d be arguing over who has to sleep in the wet spot). 

Or the guy who goes for the marathon-sex and flipping me around in 100 positions because he wants me to think he’s a stud (and usually opts for the change in tempo or a new position just as I’m edging on an orgasm). So because I wasn’t vocal enough about my needs, I did marathon gymnastics that resulted in only one of us actually coming and the one that came, drilled me afterwards about my satisfaction.

In a prior long-term relationship of mine, it put a lot of pressure on ME to come and made me get in my head. Guess what?! When I (and I’m sure a lot of women) am in my head, I am not focused on my body, his body and the sensations and enjoying the build up or just enjoying the simple act of sex. So the sex became an out of body experience where I wasn’t there, I was in my head and it lead to no orgasm.

Right now, I’ve had an orgasm (or eight) every time I’ve had sex because zero phucks, (except the one I was engaged in of course) are given. (It's been with my WS so that's a whole new can of worms that I won't go into here). However what is relevant is sometimes for women, being a lil' selfish can help wonders Miss Scarlet! I always knew my body and what works for me but what was missing was the communication on M.Y. P.A.R.T. Either I was too afraid to speak up before or I tried to but his ego shut those talks down and then I tried subtleties and showing him and that went over his head. Now, I’m much more “selfish” in bed and that old stuff just doesn’t fly anymore.

Though I’m sure that I can relate to times like this:



PHTlump said:


> I know that, if my wife had a rough day at work, there's no amount of work that I, or any vibrator, can do to make her climax.


 (His wife is obviously in her head at those times too much to relax enough to orgasm).

Where this:



PHTlump said:


> Women are different. Women won't always climax. And that's OK. A woman can not feel in the mood for climaxing and still want her husband to. (...snipped...) But it's not. Sex without climaxing can be very pleasurable. (...snipped...) It's OK for sex to be more about me than her, or us, from time to time.


Would be true for me too as a) being in my head can prevent an O and also b) sometimes it's nice just to take care of your man (SOMETIMES lol). But it should be the exception, not the rule. Sex is supposed to be fun, satisfying, and enjoyable for both and that does take communication – not an onus of responsibility and trial and error on just the man’s part.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

For a long time (many years) my wife's orgasms were a fleeting thing. They would occasionally happen if she had a few drinks, and I was licking her cl!t and massaging her G-spot with my fingers. Even more rare were the times when she would orgasm from my giving her oral, and then orgasm again while having PIV sex.

She had never really masturbated, and most of the time, she was too in her own head to orgasm during sex, no matter what we did. However, she always said it felt nice and was satisfying to her even if she didn't get off.

During counseling and sex therapy a couple of years ago, she was able to overcome her inhibitions about "letting herself go". She began masturbating and getting in touch with her body. Once after masturbating to several orgasms, she later told me "so this is what I have been missing all those years".

In order to be able to consistently orgasm, she had to learn a few things:

1.) How to let herself go, get out of her own mental distractions, and give herself permission to come. Like another poster said, if she has a bad day at work and/or is really tired, her orgasm is not coming, no matter what.

2.) What types of stimulation she needs to be able to orgasm. For her, she needs some combination of intense clitoral stimulation, and penetration. She didn't realize this until 2 or 3 years ago. She is still a bit shy about masturbating in front of me, so she really has to communicate exactly what feels good to her. For example, she has told me that she prefers that I lick in the upper left quadrant of her clitoris, and that she likes me to alternate that with licking around her urethral opening.

Again, communication is key here. I wouldn't know any of this if she didn't tell me.

3.) That its not going to happen every time (even though it happens almost every time if she wants it to), and that's OK. I had to really adjust my thinking in this area, because once she began to orgasm consistently and repeatedly when we had sex, that became the norm and being a sensitive and goal-oriented male, I wanted her to come every time. She has also had to adjust here, because now she clearly communicates to me that if she wants to come during sex, and can't (no matter the reason), she finds that frustrating.

So really, in my case the communication cuts both ways.

I think the keys are that women will orgasm more consistently if they know their bodies and can give themselves orgasms, can relax and get out of their own minds and thoughts, and communicate effectively to their partners both about what feels good and when they feel like their orgasm isn't going to happen. This last one is tough, because many women, including my wife, have responsive desire, and they may not know whether they are going to have orgasms until they are well into the sex session.

Several times after she has had multiple orgasms, my wife will say "Don't you wish you could have that many orgasms in a row?"

Ah, the mysteries of the fair sex!


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

Miss Scarlett - enjoy your time away. We went away for 10 days in late June/early July for our 25 year anniversary.

We had an amazing quantity of the best sex we have ever had. We averaged about 2-3x per day, and tried lots of new things! It was wonderful, and I hope you can have a similar experience. Wife and I are both 50, and didn't think sex could ever be this hot!

Relax and let go!


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

CASE_Sensitive said:


> I read it as you need to share the responsibility and she needs to work on it as much as you do.


After saying that, the strawman crowd "disagreed" with you and stated exactly the same thing you did, as if it was something different. :scratchhead:

So hey, I "disagree" with you too. You need to SHARE the responsibility, exactly as you said.


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

I guess the problem comes when a man does not care if his partner has an orgasm. There are plenty of selfish men out there who don't care to learn about a woman's body, how best to touch her, and how to make love to her in a way that she is sexually fulfilled. The book, "She Comes First" comes to mind. Fortunately, my wife usually orgasms easily and she is not shy about telling me what she needs, especially during oral.

Yes, her orgasm is her responsibility, only in that she needs to learn her own body, she needs to communicate her needs. Men also need to realize that sometimes she just can't. Although rare, it happened this morning to us. Finally she said, I am getting nowhere. You go ahead.

Athol also makes the point (somewhere) that her orgasm needs to come first during sex for obvious reasons.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> Thanks for the support, and I think I'm so pissed off because it shouldn't be as hard as it feels. (That's what she said.) I gave up the faking but now the urge is to tell him every time - it's not going to happen. Don't try! Because I am still full of fear that he will "feel bad" or I will become a turn off because I am difficult to please or he will wish he had the Former Miss Scarlett back, who was really not so much trouble in the sack.
> 
> However, I am becoming quite selfish with sex I find. While I fear rejection from him I am not all that concerned about if he likes something or not. I thought blow job frequency would go up if he was returning the favor - but it has gone down because I want oral from him AND I want penetration. In that order. (Editing to add - I always think 'he will go down on me and then I will go down on him - it's fair - but when it gets to that point I am like f-that, I want sex too.)
> 
> ...


Relax and enjoy the journey.
Please don't over analyze this.
At 43 you're in your sexual prime , so its a good place to start.
Have no regrets for the past, the future is bright and yours for the taking.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I agree unless the man is a 2 pump chump
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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