# Is it okay to continually jump your spouse?



## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Assuming you're the HD partner, and if you wait you'll never get it. Also assuming s/he never asks for sex, and you're doing it all the time.

Question: is it okay to jump your partner all the time? Is this pressurising her/him? If she refuses and you insist, would it amount to marital rape? (What if you know she's going to start enjoing it somewhere along the way? Then too? What's the borderline?)


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

You need some serious therapy and your wife needs a Lawyer


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

If she refuses and you insist, would it amount to marital rape? 

Yes. There is no borderline.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

As long as there is no force and she does not say no then go with it. Under no circumstances should you use force or proceed if she says no. 

Other than that, do what works to be intimate with her reactive drive.

I have noted numerous times that some members misinterpret the way you perhaps unartfully word things and give you unwarranted crap because of their own baggage. 

Perhaps you are not the most artful phraseologist. I am glad to see you are not deterred by the piling on you experience here trying to comprehend your wife's reactive drive, lack of initiating and LD. 

Keep tinkering with it, I solved much of the reactive drive and confusing LD puzzle and you can to


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Q Is it okay to continually whack your spouse over the head with a heavy fry pan? 

A Yes it is if he is a man that thinks it is ok to force himself on his wife.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thread the needle said:


> Under no circumstances should you use force or proceed if she says no.


FBI definition of rape “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

I find any suggestion that I am supporting, encouraging or advocating rape offensive and absurd.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

thread the needle said:


> FBI definition of rape “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”
> 
> I find any suggestion that I am supporting, encouraging or advocating rape offensive and absurd.


consent is getting a yes- a non-coerced yes-, not just not a no.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> consent is getting a yes- a non-coerced yes-, not just not a no.


Hmmm, yeah. It is also said that asking is unattractive. 

I do think if you have to ask if X constitutes marital rape in 10+ different threads you've got a serious issue:scratchhead: Perhaps you should ask your wife if she feels safe in your marriage.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> consent is getting a yes- a non-coerced yes-, not just not a no.


The overwhelming majority of couples do not ask a formalized question to obtain consent. It is the actions of the sex partner that indicates consent. 

If you want to ignore that because you want to tar me and the OP with evil while you ungenerously attempt to consider the meaning of his question then I can not take you seriously because it's nonsense and you know so or ought to know that. 

Extending respect to others is required here. I'd ask you to honor that rule in this thread instead of suggesting rotten cynicism. 

I directed my answer to the OP and you are directing yours at me. Please stop


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

anonmd said:


> Hmmm, yeah. It is also said that asking is unattractive.


There are plenty of ways of _asking _without actually asking if KWIM. There are also many ways that a yes isn't just a "yes, I would like to have sex with you" 

Example- a simple "I want you". A "mmmmm, sounds good"
is still a yes.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

To OP (Brownmale) 

With all due respect, you seem very repetitive with your threads concerning what constitutes spousal rape. Another poster mentioned 10 very similar posts on this subject which causes many here concern for you and your wife's well-being and safety.

Are the non-angry, non-judgmental answers you are getting that are clearly trying to help you sort out your understanding of what constitutes spousal rape helping you sort thru what appears to be a rather serious/dangerous comprehension issue about what are appropriate boundaries when it comes to pursuing sexual intercourse with your wife?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

OP what exactly is going on in your marriage? A detailed description of your interaction with your wife would illicit specific advise that fits your situation. 

Often, the problem is not primarily sex but relationship issues that effect the desire to be close. It's hard to see that when you are in the middle of an emotional interaction with your wife. Solving the basic problem is more effective than focusing on the sexual problem exclusively. 

Why don't you tell your story. The way you are seeking help is not working.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Assuming you're the HD partner, and if you wait you'll never get it. Also assuming s/he never asks for sex, and you're doing it all the time.
> 
> Question: is it okay to jump your partner all the time? Is this pressurising her/him? If she refuses and you insist, would it amount to marital rape? (What if you know she's going to start enjoing it somewhere along the way? Then too? What's the borderline?)


What do you mean by jump your partner? I think this is subject to wide interpretation. That coupled with your other threads has some in in an uproar because of their interpretation of what you mean by "jump" your partner.

What do you mean by "If she refuses and you insist"? If you mean physically insist by force then I believe you have a serious problem and are committing the crime of rape. 

If you simply mean continuing to try to persuade her verbally, but do not touch her physically when she says no, then it is not rape.

You can not force her even if you are convinced at some point she will "start enjoying it" because the initial force constitutes rape even of she might start to enjoy it at some point. 

IT seem there may be some dom/submissive issues going on that a therapist should help you both sort through so neither of you ends iup making a horrific mistake with your lives. 

You both seem to be playing with fire making this back and forth into some sort of very dangerous ill-advised game. 

If you require ten posts to sort it out, I think it would be wise to consult a professional

I also think you might be able to restore some credibility if you acknowledged and gave answers to the concerns of some of the posters as to what you are learning from your threads if anything.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I am in a very healthy relationship with my wife and I "attack" her every day, several times a day. It is playful grabbing, caressing and kissing. I have been like this for nearly 24 years with her.

Sometimes she protested, early on, and I would just laugh and let her know I love her and I was attracted. I never forced anything and my relentless confidence and good mood always wins out.

She now plays with me as well. We don't always have sex but we always foster an atmosphere of sexuality.

I actually turn her down sometimes these days.

If you are being playful and have understanding with your wife then being persistent isn't rapey. If harsh feelings, strong protests or tears are involved, it is rapey.

Will your wife communicate with you about this? It can be fun if there is a mutual understanding.

Some of our hottest sex sessions have been with me really taking and ravaging her, even with her mild protests about having sex or certain acts during sex but we have understanding and good communication. I have also never injured her and if things get to intense for either of us we can put the brakes on and start again slowly.

What goes on in your marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Catherine602 said:


> OP what exactly is going on in your marriage? A detailed description of your interaction with your wife would illicit specific advise that fits your situation.
> 
> Often, the problem is not primarily sex but relationship issues that effect the desire to be close. It's hard to see that when you are in the middle of an emotional interaction with your wife. Solving the basic problem is more effective than focusing on the sexual problem exclusively.
> 
> Why don't you tell your story. The way you are seeking help is not working.


:iagree:


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I am in a very healthy relationship with my wife and I "attack" her every day, several times a day. It is playful grabbing, caressing and kissing. I have been like this for nearly 24 years with her.
> 
> Sometimes she protested, early on, and I would just laugh and let her know I love her and I was attracted. I never forced anything and my relentless confidence and good mood always wins out.
> 
> ...


You are a good guy CH :smthumbup:

but the post history of the Op is not quite right. Be careful of giving him the go ahead to force himself on his wife. Past posts make it pretty clear he is looking for the green light to continue with this abhorrent behaviour. Until he clarifies it seems he is raping his wife.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holland said:


> You are a good guy CH :smthumbup:
> 
> but the post history of the Op is not quite right. Be careful of giving him the go ahead to force himself on his wife. Past posts make it pretty clear he is looking for the green light to continue with this abhorrent behaviour. Until he clarifies it seems he is raping his wife.


Definitely not giving a green light for him to force her. Just giving a healthy example and trying to get him to explain what is going on between him and his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

In one of your other threads your posts seemed to say that you are living with your parents? 
Also that she has concerns about your personal hygiene and that she's expressed that she wants a divorce. 
Then there is the affair and the times where you have forced her into sex. 


You are trying to jump back into sex without solving the issues that stopped it in the first place. You need to step back and take your focus off sex for a bit and get to the root of your issues. 

I also think 1 detailed thread would get you more help.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Some minds are made up. The OP's is not. Hence the discussion continuing. Running him off with insults makes it worse for his wife. A constructive conversation is in order.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> In one of your other threads your posts seemed to say that you are living with your parents?
> Also that she has concerns about your personal hygiene and that she's expressed that she wants a divorce.
> Then there is the affair and the times where you have forced her into sex.
> 
> ...


Exactly! OP. Deal with your shyt before even thinking about sex. You cheated? You already raped her?

Get your head out of your ass and into counseling. Also, give your wife an amicable divorce if she wants it.

Do you even live in a free country!&#55357;&#56850;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

You guys are making a whole lot of assumptions, and then basing your arguments on that! Unfair.



ConanHub said:


> Exactly! OP. Deal with your shyt before even thinking about sex. You cheated? You already raped her?
> 
> Get your head out of your ass and into counseling. Also, give your wife an amicable divorce if she wants it.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

brownmale said:


> You guys are making a whole lot of assumptions, and then basing your arguments on that! Unfair.


Where do you live? At least what continent?

You have 6 posts that seem to justify marital rape.

In one you said:



brownmale said:


> What I see as being culture-dependent here is:
> 
> * How acceptable divorce is in your society.
> * How much of a 'solution' divorce is viewed, for marital problems.
> ...


[bolding is mine]

I get the impression that you come from a culture in which women have few rights and that do not recognize martial rape because of this. But now you are living in a place that has marital rape laws. So you are conflicted.

Is this right?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> Exactly! OP. Deal with your shyt before even thinking about sex. You cheated? You already raped her?
> 
> Get your head out of your ass and into counseling. Also, give your wife an amicable divorce if she wants it.
> 
> Do you even live in a free country!&#55357;&#56850;


If I recall correctly, OP says that his wife told him to get sex somewhere else. So he went out and had a 4 year affair.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

OP. If you never forced your wife, I am sorry. If you did, my previous statement stands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amorous (May 14, 2015)

brownmale said:


> If she refuses and you insist, would it amount to marital rape?


If she refuses you shouldn't insist or even whine about it or try to manipulate your way into a yes, have respect for yourself and your partner.

I suppose I would be considered the HD, yet last time we had sex hubby initiated and while I was happy, he caught me off guard and not in the mood. I mumbled that I wasn't in the mood in a coy and flirty way in hopes of him helping me with that but without refusal, he either didn't heard me or didn't get it. It was the worst sex we have ever had even though I did orgasm in the end, but I am easily aroused and can achieve multiple O's without even trying so...


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Why do you even want to have sex with someone who has made it very clear that she does not desire you at all?


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## lovelyblue (Oct 25, 2013)

_Is it okay to continually jump your spouse_

If they're not into it and you don't ask it sounds like rape to me.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

brownmale said:


> Assuming you're the HD partner, and if you wait you'll never get it. Also assuming s/he never asks for sex, and you're doing it all the time.
> 
> Question: is it okay to jump your partner all the time? Is this pressurising her/him? If she refuses and you insist, would it amount to marital rape? (What if you know she's going to start enjoing it somewhere along the way? Then too? What's the borderline?)



Since I am the HD hubby and my wife is the LD one, I have to initiate or she usually never does.

Like late last night, I was in the mood and I initiated. She moaned, groaned, in the morning, etc. I told her, I am in the mood now and sex is spontaneous. After more initiating, she rolled over and we had our "us time". 

Sad thing is, if I would of gone to bed, she never would of initiated and the next morning wouldn't of happened either.

Being married to a LD spouse, you must initiate or get used to having almost no sex or intimacy.

Or you can use a sex toy to relieve yourself, never pressure your LD spouse and no worries.

When you are married, you are not your own anymore. That means, it doesn't matter who is the LD spouse. The LD spouse is to take care of her HD spouses needs or should of stayed single. You can't get married and then expect your HD spouse to be short changed like that and think its okay. It's not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> Since I am the HD hubby and my wife is the LD one, I have to initiate or she usually never does.
> 
> Like late last night, I was in the mood and I initiated. She moaned, groaned, in the morning, etc. I told her, I am in the mood now and sex is spontaneous. After more initiating, she rolled over and we had our "us time".
> 
> ...


I agree to a point. That point is the one at which the person who appears to be LD does not want sex with their spouse for a very good reason. There are legitimate reasons for not wanting sex with one's spouse. Sitting here on the computer, we don't know what is really going on in anyone else's life.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

There is a very distinct legal and ethical difference between having sex with someone that does not consent (which is rape) and having sex with someone that does not want to have sex but still consents for their own reasons (duty sex for example). 

Consent can not be given if coerced, authority is abused or is against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent

Desire and permission are entirely different. 

I may consent to have my vehicle searched by a suspicious police officer to relieve them and myself of the hassle of suspicion even though I don't want them to. The search is not illegal if I consent.

If the police officer puts a gun to my head and says he will shoot me, it is illegal even if I agree because consent was coerced and therefore no legal consent was given at all

I may consent to letting my father in law borrow something expensive even if I don't like the idea. I would have my reasons for doing so but even if I don't like it, he isn't stealing. 

It is also absurd that some imply that asking for or giving consent is generally verbal during a sexual advance. Consent is most often given from the actions or lack of resisting actions of the person implying consent. 

If the OP is having sex with his wife without consent or with coerced consent then he is raping her. If he is having sex with his wife even though she does not want to but with her consent, it is not rape whether you find it outrageously bothersome or not. 

Let' get it right instead of the unhinged emotional reactions that are inaccurate. The legal distinctions matter even if in all cases you find the behavior of the OP appalling or not.

For the record, I am not suggesting a moral equivalence of rape versus searches or loaning out personal items. I am suggesting a legal equivalence only to make the logical point despite what appearances may be.

When someone comes on the forum and asks "is blanket blank wrong" it seems that could be either a matter of taste, ethics, legalities or a combination of all three. The formation of that very common question sucks because it lacks the details needed to answer the unspecified question which requires speculation. 

The predictable variety of answers to those poorly formed questions is always predictable since there is some variation in values and ethics among the members

To OP, why are you refusing to offer answers to questions needed to determine the answer to your 10 threads on the same subject even though the forum clearly shows you are still online during the rather lively and impassioned discussions on your threads?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Definitely not giving a green light for him to force her. Just giving a healthy example and trying to get him to explain what is going on between him and his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


no I am not suggesting you are personally giving him the green light. More that going on his past post history and the very select replies he has given that he is looking for justification for what he is doing. One of the few replies he has given was to a post that pretty much said the marital rape was ok depending on what culture you are from.

The OP gives trickle truths of some very contentious information, he also then blows up accusing people of making assumptions all the while refusing to answer posters that ask for his full story.

This is not a normal, healthy relationship.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

thread the needle said:


> To OP, why are you refusing to offer answers to questions needed to determine the answer to your 10 threads on the same subject even though the forum clearly shows you are still online during the rather lively and impassioned discussions on your threads?


Thanks, ttn for not pre-judging me, or acting as judge-jury-executioner (all in one) as some have done.

The reason for my reluctance is that (i) I've not come here to be summarily tried (ii) I find that the negative responses reflect some cultural assumptions, guesswork, or out of context quotes (iii) the latter is often an assemblage of impressions from some other discussions which have come up on TAM, and each statement needs to be seen in the context it was made, not just flung anyway to make any point.

The most alarming is this conclusion that I'm raping my wife. Actually, what I've said is that I'm the HD partner, she won't initiate, and at best will agree to duty-sex. Some may have the ideological question of "Why accept sex when she's so reluctant to give it to you?" (That, my friends, is an ideological position, based on a lot of assumptions.) Others have raised the issue of consent, which is not an issue. Of course, you might feel one should request a sexual encounter politely, or wait till your partner is in the mood, or work on sorting out 'underlying issues'. But these are issues of preference. To label someone whose approach is different from yours a rapist is most unfortunately.

From slivers of information available, very serious conclusions are being drawn. Is this fair? Because I don't come from your cultural background, I find it hard to accept the dominant if-you're-not-getting-sex-divorce-your-partner logic one comes across here. This is just an illustration of how our nationality, race, religion and such factors are what determines our assumptions and conclusions.

My request to some of the members who have been rather unpleasant in their responses: please don't be so judgemental. You have a right to make your comments, but not to sit in judgement on your fellowman.

With all the responses I've been getting -- some public and a few private in my mail -- it is now me who's feeling raped! At least by some attitudes. I agree it's not a pleasant feeling!


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

Holland said:


> One of the few replies he has given was to a post that pretty much said the marital rape was ok depending on what culture you are from. \... This is not a normal, healthy relationship.


This is the way views are being misinterpreted.

My view is that the concept of 'marital rape' means different things in different cultures. And across different points of time. 

PS: For the record, this might interest you... as it tells the history of this concept: Countries which were early to criminalize marital rape include the Soviet Union (1922/1960), Poland (1932), Czechoslovakia (1950), some other members of the Communist Bloc, Sweden (1965),and Norway (1971). Slovenia, then a republic within federal Yugoslavia, criminalized marital rape in 1977. The Israeli Supreme Court affirmed that marital rape is a crime in a 1980 decision, citing law based on the Talmud (at least 6th century). Criminalization in Australia began with the state of New South Wales in 1981, followed by all other states from 1985 to 1992. Several formerly British-ruled countries followed suit: Canada (1983), New Zealand (1985), and Ireland (1990)....

The legal history of marital rape laws in the United States is a long and complex one, that spans over several decades. Traditional rape laws in the US defined rape as forced sexual intercourse by a male with a "female not his wife", making it clear that the statutes did not apply to married couples. The 1962 Model Penal Code stated that "A male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if: (...)"

Marital rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Thanks, ttn for not pre-judging me, or acting as judge-jury-executioner (all in one) as some have done.
> 
> The reason for my reluctance is that (i) I've not come here to be summarily tried (ii) I find that the negative responses reflect some cultural assumptions, guesswork, or out of context quotes (iii) the latter is often an assemblage of impressions from some other discussions which have come up on TAM, and each statement needs to be seen in the context it was made, not just flung anyway to make any point.
> 
> ...


Whatever, dude. You're the one who said you sometimes order her into the bedroom to take her clothes off when you want sex and she, understandably, does not.


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Whatever, dude. You're the one who said you sometimes order her into the bedroom to take her clothes off when you want sex and she, understandably, does not.


She doesn't initiate. "Does not" is an interpretation.

If she gives in -- even not enthusiastically, and just duty sex -- I'll take it. If she rejects or refuses, I'll take no for an answer. Despite the rejection and hurt.

This is where assumptions on your part come in. And they aren't even correct...


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> She doesn't initiate. "Does not" is an interpretation.
> 
> If she gives in -- even not enthusiastically, and just duty sex -- I'll take it. If she rejects or refuses, I'll take no for an answer. Despite the rejection and hurt.
> 
> This is where assumptions on your part come in. And they aren't even correct...


OK, well you said it. If it's not what you meant, ok. 

What are non-sexual attributes about your wife that you love?

What are non-sexual attributes about you that your wife loves?


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## brownmale (Apr 20, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> What are non-sexual attributes about your wife that you love?
> What are non-sexual attributes about you that your wife loves?


1. Most things about her, except the sexual deprivation which makes me see her as needlessly black!
2. I rather won't speak on her behalf.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

brownmale said:


> Because I don't come from your cultural background, I find it hard to accept the dominant if-you're-not-getting-sex-divorce-your-partner logic one comes across here. This is just an illustration of how our nationality, race, religion and such factors are what determines our assumptions and conclusions


I agree with you that many of the responses to your questions are unfortunate ignorance, completely asinine, illogical emotional outbursts, reckless assumptions, legally inaccurate or obnoxious cheap shots. 

I pointed that out as eloquently as I could without being disrespectful to any one person. I also attempted to avoid directing those criticisms for those very annoying emotional reactions to any specific poster. 

To be further accurate, I have seen other ridiculously inaccurate definitions and uncarefully formed conclusions of marital rape in other LD threads that are not your threads that depend on wrongly equating a lack of desire with a lack of consent. It seems duty sex rankles many members that have little if any agreement with the responsibilities of an LD spouse to their marriage partner. That is the land of impassioned value judgments here on TAM IMO. 

That being said, I believe the fair criticism I have for you is the formation of many of your questions leaves too much to misinterpretation which does not make a lot of sense to me because your other responses are often more eloquent. For example, the use of "jump" your wife causes some to "jump" to the conclusion and form an image in their mind that you are physically attacking your wife by overpowering her. 

I took it differently, that you meant it as a facetious term rather than a literal term to mean, enthusiastically make an appropriate sexual pass at your wife for sexual intercourse. 

I believe you ought to take responsibility for the use of that word ruffling some feathers here and they should take the responsibility for making offensive assumptions. 

In regard to the quoted passage, we also disagree that leaving a sexless marriage is the dominant position here. I think just as many, such as myself, advocate attempting every possible solution to fix that marriage rather than divorce.

I have done so and have posted many intricate details how I did do in my thread of that subject which you ought to look at as it is on point with many issues that you may need to resolve. The issue in my marriage was situational caused LD so I fixed the situation with a very effective reattraction and rebuilding love and connection efforts that has paid remarkable dividends for my wife and I. 

I also don't think it is cultural or the other differences you listed because I do not agree with you that is the dominant position here. Perhaps you are angry from the treatment you have suffered from the emotional posters offering uncarefully placed baggage on your door step. 

It also seems odd there are some posters trying to help you sort thru your questions and the forum is anonymous yet you still are not answering the detailed questions asked by them. 

As I stated before, if you have non-coerced consent from your wife for duty sex it is not rape. The line crossed at the point that persuasion becomes coerced consent. That is the line even if other posters say there isn't a line, they are mistaken. There is one. That line is not drawn at lack of desire. It is drawn at the lack of consent.

Any other position, however distasteful they find duty sex, is utter nonsense.

In your post above you state "consent is not an issue". So long as that consent was not coerced, there is no rape.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

brownmale said:


> 1. *Most things about her,* except the sexual deprivation which makes me see her as needlessly black!
> 2. I rather won't speak on her behalf.


Like what?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holland said:


> Q Is it okay to continually whack your spouse over the head with a heavy fry pan?



People use frying pans still? 

Perhaps the OP has mentioned what culture he's hailing from and where he lives... He may have done it already so apologies if duplicate.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

john117 said:


> People use frying pans still?
> 
> Perhaps the OP has mentioned what culture he's hailing from and where he lives... He may have done it already so apologies if duplicate.


I don't think he's said. But, the time zone he's in seems to be about a 12 hour difference, give or take, from EST time zone. (Based on my observations of his posting pattern).


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Elegirl, has asked him at least twice where he lives or his cultural background and he hasn't answered.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

You have started a LOT of threads, all with a similar negative bend. I'm not sure what you're driving at.

What's your main issue? As best as I can tell, it's probably time for one of you to file for divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

happy as a clam said:


> As best as I can tell, it's probably time for one of you to file for divorce





brownmale said:


> I find it hard to accept the dominant if-you're-not-getting-sex-divorce-your-partner logic one comes across here


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Banned, oh well.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Banned, oh well.


I think he was someone else that's been banned before.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In a word, "No!"

Marriage is deemed to be a joint activity; Sex should be, also! Don't you think?*


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

thread the needle said:


> I agree with you that many of the responses to your questions are unfortunate ignorance, completely asinine, illogical emotional outbursts, reckless assumptions, legally inaccurate or obnoxious cheap shots.
> 
> I pointed that out as eloquently as I could without being disrespectful to any one person. I also attempted to avoid directing those criticisms for those very annoying emotional reactions to any specific poster.
> 
> ...


and you have done similar here by assuming those that are concerned about his wife and have stated that what he is doing is wrong, are speaking out due to their baggage. If someone is concerned about another persons behaviour it is possible that it comes from a genuine concern for the wife involved, no baggage just basic human concern. 

I would seriously question the motives of a poster that comes into a forum based in Western culture and repeatedly asks questions of people in that culture that find rape abhorrent. Now I am going to assume that the vast majority of people here find it abhorrent not because it is illegal but because it is wrong. So for him to come here knowing it is illegal and wrong in our culture his agenda comes across as very warped. 

If you want to support his actions just because he is of a different culture then would you support a man that went on holiday to the OPs country and raped his wife while there?


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thread the needle said:


> Running him off with insults makes it worse for his wife.





thread the needle said:


> Consent can not be given if coerced, authority is abused or is against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent.





thread the needle said:


> If the OP is having sex with his wife without consent or with coerced consent then he is raping her





thread the needle said:


> Let' get it right instead of the unhinged emotional reactions that are inaccurate. The legal distinctions matter





thread the needle said:


> I believe the fair criticism I have for you is the formation of many of your questions leaves too much to misinterpretation
> 
> For example, the use of "jump" your wife causes some to "jump" to the conclusion and form an image in their mind that you are physically attacking your wife by overpowering her.
> 
> ...





Holland said:


> I would seriously question the motives of a poster that comes into a forum based in Western culture and repeatedly asks questions of people in that culture that find rape abhorrent


You leave out many specific details glossing over them. You also dispense with the fairness and accuracy of your interpretations and assume what the OP meant. 

I don't do that. Instead I ask for clarification. Please note the poster was banned for ambiguity and I challenged him on his ambiguity and to clarify his unclear choice of words several times. I also offered my perspective for both possible interpretations to avoid the risk there would be further ambiguity.



Holland said:


> If you want to support his actions just because he is of a different culture then would you support a man that went on holiday to the OPs country and raped his wife while there?


"want to support his actions"? 

Where am I supporting his actions? 

"just because he is from a different culture" ? 

You see words that are not there. 

"Do I support rape"?

No and that ought to be very clear from my carefully written posts

What I do support is accuracy and unambiguous communication and productive discussion.

Based on my participation in this thread adding factual details such as the FBI definition of rape and drilling down on the difference between consent and coercion and the difference between desire and consent, asking for clarification, and adding examples to clarify differences in interpretation, and calling out the OP for his ambiguous, unartful questions, I hope my interest and intent would be clear to most people. 

How you equate my interest in a constructive, unambiguous, helpful discussion with my supporting rape in far away lands is a rather offensive mystery. 

You don't seem to care about much that I do care about. 

Where we agree is that rape is abhorrent in every culture.

I understand it is a very emotional charged issue. That is all the more reason to put forward extra effort to understand exactly what is being asked and to clarify all ambiguity. 

I hope we can disagree whether the use and the OP's meaning of the word "jump" and "insist" and "demand" is relevant or ambiguous without you assuming I support rape in any culture or locale. 

In my view, those word choices are unfortunate because their meaning is not clear. It seems you and several others, are entirely convinced what he means in each case. I don't see how you can do that in good faith when each are the worst interpretation of the possible meanings. 

Several posters commit what I believe are the same logical errors and that bothers me because the subject is critically important to the OP's wife and to the sensibilities and decency of all concerned about the safety of women around the globe of which this forum is read everywhere.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
Yes, those words are very fuzzy.

I think the whole issue of "implied consent" has been discussed in another thread, but if not, it is worth discussing again



thread the needle said:


> In my view, those word choices are unfortunate because their meaning is not clear. It seems you and several others, are entirely convinced what he means in each case. I don't see how you can do that in good faith when each are the worst interpretation of the possible meanings.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> Yes, those words are very fuzzy.
> 
> I think the whole issue of "implied consent" has been discussed in another thread, but if not, it is worth discussing again


I just searched for "implied consent" and dozens of rapey threads came up. 

When I searched for "coerced consent" in google yesterday it was nearly all college websites. I am very pleased to see they are being proactive about teaching the nuances to sex-craved college students with a history of rape and consent related issues. 

One of things I find very bothersome about many of the threads from the OP and similar threads on emotionally charged subjects, is the reactions of some posters assuming the very worst or just downright reading what is not there into what he said, what I said or what others said to shed some light on a very serious issue. 

No amount of facts, quotes, accuracy or reason could talk them off this worst possible interpretation. The OP is trying to sort out where the lines are and some posters are trying to help and others are just throwing bombs out of left field based on the worst possible meanings of ambiguous words. 

It makes me shudder to think we can all be jury members and the guilty verdict comes before the facts are known and before any clarification. 

Does anyone other than the OP know what he meant when he said 

"insist" 

or 

"jump" 

or 

"demand"

No they don't until he explains it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I feel so sorry for your wife!


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