# Bumping Back on the bump back



## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

Situation-

Wife brings in bratwurst of the grill and announces that lunch is done. I walk into the kitchen, and start to grab a plate out of the cabinet. She uses the scolding tone of voice to say "I just did dishes, use something else". I gave her the angry eye, grabbed a paper plate and walked away. 5 minutes later she asked why I got mad at her (I finally processed the whole thing), and told her that it was unacceptable that she told me not to use a plate like she would address a child. She wanted to argue that "she asked me to use something else", and when I repeated exactly what she said, she said "Fine. I just did dishes, use something else". I told her that was unacceptable (again), and she replied "so you get to be all alpha and I don't? I don't think so". 
My response of "That's the way it works" didn't sound all that great. I Know this is going to come up again, suggestions?


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

my wife has on occasion talked to me like she might our three kids. i let her have it with both barrels and shut it down real quick. aint gonna happen


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

This is not about alpha. It is about treating your partner in a courteous manner. She was disrespectful to you and you called her on it. Your response to her could have been: This isn't about alpha, it's about treating me disrespectfully. I won't put up with it, and if I treat you disrespectfully I would not expect you to put up with it either. 

Alpha may result in getting your way, but getting your way to treat your spouse worse than you would a stranger is unacceptable.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

She could have said: "Oh, honey, I just did the dishes. Maybe a paper plate?" in a non-condescending tone.

Unfortunately, it WILL come up again-maybe not this issue, but something else. The thing is, you want to assert yourself, and not be talked to in a way reserved for misbehaving 5-year-olds, and that's good.

But, unfortunately, there is, at least in a female's mind, very little difference between being an assertive man who respects himself-and being a controlling, abusive a**hole.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WorldsApart,

Read this link.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

Whatever strikes you about this subject, there are plenty of guys here with ideas about how to handle these situations.

What you did is likely to be ineffective in the long run.





WorldsApart said:


> Situation-
> 
> Wife brings in bratwurst of the grill and announces that lunch is done. I walk into the kitchen, and start to grab a plate out of the cabinet. She uses the scolding tone of voice to say "I just did dishes, use something else". I gave her the angry eye, grabbed a paper plate and walked away. 5 minutes later she asked why I got mad at her (I finally processed the whole thing), and told her that it was unacceptable that she told me not to use a plate like she would address a child. She wanted to argue that "she asked me to use something else", and when I repeated exactly what she said, she said "Fine. I just did dishes, use something else". I told her that was unacceptable (again), and she replied "so you get to be all alpha and I don't? I don't think so".
> My response of "That's the way it works" didn't sound all that great. I Know this is going to come up again, suggestions?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Power & Control. I went to the MD today my wife "reminded" me five times about my drop off in cardio workouts. I finally had to "remind" I am not retarded. All Sulking Normal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

Conrad, i'm happy at this point i'm starting to recognize her **** tests 
I know my response was ineffective, hence the questions here.


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

F-102 said:


> She could have said: "Oh, honey, I just did the dishes. Maybe a paper plate?" in a non-condescending tone.
> 
> Unfortunately, it WILL come up again-maybe not this issue, but something else. The thing is, you want to assert yourself, and not be talked to in a way reserved for misbehaving 5-year-olds, and that's good.
> 
> But, unfortunately, there is, at least in a female's mind, very little difference between being an assertive man who respects himself-and being a controlling, abusive a**hole.


I was married to a controlling, abusive a**hole for 28 years. I know the difference. Go ahead, assert yourself. Adults can do that.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WorldsApart said:


> Conrad, i'm happy at this point i'm starting to recognize her **** tests
> I know my response was ineffective, hence the questions here.


Read that thread.

It opens a whole new world.

Today at work, I overheard a colleague talking about how "she" wasn't going to pay $400.00 for this training IF she didn't get the job, etc. etc. etc.

I asked an innocent question - whether she was pursuing an advanced degree of some sort.

"I'll have you know I already HAVE that degree and I'm studying for my masters..."

My response... big sly grin.... "It's a privilege to know you... I'll practice leaving the room with my nose in the air in your honor."

She doubled over laughing.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Alpha would have been you grilling the brauts, coming in and announcing lunch is ready. Plates wouldn't have been an issue. 
Learn man, learn.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Use whichever plate you want to use. Just don't expect her to wash it.

No need to make it a federal case--you or her.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Use something else? Ok put them all in a coffee mug.


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## Powerbane (Nov 8, 2010)

Worlds - the correct answer would have been to look her in the eyes and smile all the while grabbing whatever plate you wanted. You were tested and failed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

For a fitness test, do not over think them.

Don't take them or react to them literally.

Use humor.

Respond to your woman as if her scolding/pouting/drama is just so cute and completely amusing to you. 

Extra points to respond as if you are convinced she herself is deliberately being so cute and amusing to woo you or entice you sexually.

You hear :"I just did dishes, use something else"

You reply, with a wink and a smile eyeing her top to bottom: "You're sexy when you try to be all bossy." 

THen use whatever plate you wish, either one is fine, test already passed, no resentment lingering on your part.

The second part, your woman telling you exactly as a woman will, actions speak louder than words. As sincere and direct as you were to address the previous incident, in her mind you borderline "whining" about your feelings getting hurt, and this after she did the dishes and fixed dinner. 

That why it's best to use few words on these tings, and a missed fitness test, so what? Learn for next time. 

If you not liking the tone of her voice, then tease or mock her playfully expressing how silly she was to be acting like your "mommy", or playfully threaten to swat her behind next time she speaks as though she's your "mommy". 

Do not volunteer to communicate merely that your feelings are hurt that she speaks to you as a child, do NOT go out of your way to reinforce THAT image in her mind, instead favor communicating the image of her being silly acting like your mommy.

Even as subtle as this balance, to merely ask for respect with words, without the actions, behavior, or even attitude (as projected even in humor similar to above examples) to back up the words, is going to mostly only trigger more fitness tests. 

Be bold, be humorous, enjoy the fitness test, and don't fret the misteps, it's all part of the journey.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

WorldsApart said:


> I told her that was unacceptable (again), and she replied "so you get to be all alpha and I don't? I don't think so".
> My response of "That's the way it works" didn't sound all that great. I Know this is going to come up again, suggestions?


If you’ve been discussing/telling your wife about this manning up/alpha process, then that was a wrong move. In this case it seems to have initiated some form of competition/power struggle between the two of you. Plus in your household it seems manning up/alpha has been interpreted as being “domineering” and getting very close to dictating/a dictatorship. It is not about dictating.

Don’t talk about these things, just “be”. Once you talk about them, you’ve lost because it becomes a joke, something to mock or compete with.

This is a bit like Boundaries for Men, your N.U.T.s. You don’t talk about your N.U.T.s. You are your N.U.T.s. See Finding Your N.U.T.S..

You need to bring out the “feminine” in your wife (and sometimes that’s a giggly little girl), by being “masculine”. If in the example you quoted you could have got into chasing her around the home with her laughing and giggling and all the while leading you to the bedroom where she’s “caught”, that’s the kind of result you are looking for.

I think there are times in marriages when one partner tries to dominate the other and because the other partner wont be dominated it becomes a power struggle. A struggle of dominance. Perhaps even between two dictators. It sounds to me like the two of you are in a power struggle. In a sense you are both trying to be Alpha, “Masculine”, the Head of the Household etc. These things go back 1,000s of years, it’s nothing new.


If you really love each other and you want to stay together I think perhaps the very best thing you can do is get yourselves on a marriage enrichment program where you will learn about the structure and dynamics of how to have a happy and successful marriage.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Hey - is there a difference between Fitness Testing and a generally controlling personality? In some instances I can see the fitnes stuff with my wife, but she does similar things with our kids and other parts of her life. She 'just wants to make sure everyone's happy' so she tells them all what they have to do. Just curious.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

For an answer to her statement about the dishes:

My using them is just a testament to your awesome work  If you want to get a paper plate for me I can work with that too.


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## joshbjoshb (Jul 11, 2011)

jayde said:


> Hey - is there a difference between Fitness Testing and a generally controlling personality? In some instances I can see the fitnes stuff with my wife, but she does similar things with our kids and other parts of her life. She 'just wants to make sure everyone's happy' so she tells them all what they have to do. Just curious.


Great point. I struggle with the same type of situation.

Sometimes I feel that some people, men and women but maybe more women, are just emotionally ill... I think that in that case being assertive (or alpha as people here like to call it) might at least help you feel like a human being and not a dormant. It might still not change much her since she needs to go to counseling and to realize that she is in a ditch.

I believe people that wives that act very controlling, yelling a lot and talking not nicely to others (including parents and siblings) are suffering from a great emotional issue. They are full of fears, and in general never learned how to deal with their emotions. 

Sometimes I think it's their parents fault that they didn't teach them how to deal with emotions. And in that case, you have a major responsibility to make sure your kids are not like that, but showing an example of a well balanced and emotionally stable person.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

joshbjoshb said:


> Great point. I struggle with the same type of situation.
> 
> Sometimes I feel that some people, men and women but maybe more women, are just emotionally ill... I think that in that case being assertive (or alpha as people here like to call it) might at least help you feel like a human being and not a dormant. It might still not change much her since she needs to go to counseling and to realize that she is in a ditch.
> 
> ...


That’s all very true. For those that didn’t have good teachers as far as emotional management is concerned, Emotional Intelligence (Amazon.com: Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ (9780553375060): Daniel Goleman: Books) is probably the best way to learn.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

So how long can dishes be out until they're fit for reuse? 

"I just washed them"

Well good, thanks. I wasn't going to use a dirty one.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

WorldsApart said:


> Situation-
> 
> Wife brings in bratwurst of the grill and announces that lunch is done. I walk into the kitchen, and start to grab a plate out of the cabinet. She uses the scolding tone of voice to say "I just did dishes, use something else". I gave her the angry eye, grabbed a paper plate and walked away.


Look her in the eye and CALMLY say, you do not have the right to speak to me like I am a child. And take a plate.



> 5 minutes later she asked why I got mad at her (I finally processed the whole thing), and told her that it was unacceptable that she told me not to use a plate like she would address a child. She wanted to argue that "she asked me to use something else", and when I repeated exactly what she said, she said "Fine. I just did dishes, use something else". I told her that was unacceptable (again), and she replied "so you get to be all alpha and I don't? I don't think so".
> My response of "That's the way it works" didn't sound all that great. I Know this is going to come up again, suggestions?


Do you speak to her as if she is a child? Is that what alpha means to you? If so, that sucks and you are gonna get nowhere.


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## joshbjoshb (Jul 11, 2011)

AFEH said:


> That’s all very true. For those that didn’t have good teachers as far as emotional management is concerned, Emotional Intelligence (Amazon.com: Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ (9780553375060): Daniel Goleman: Books) is probably the best way to learn.



Sure, that's a great book. One has to realize that they are ill before turning to a doctor... and a strong symptom of that illness is that you think that everyone else is bad and if only he and she and they will change their way the world will be a better place.

Believe me, I see it almost every day. She is a wonderful woman, good looking and very smart. But clueless whenever any emotional challenge comes up. 

She will never say "I am sad", almost never cry. Instead, be angry and blame everyone.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> So how long can dishes be out until they're fit for reuse?
> 
> "I just washed them"
> 
> Well good, thanks. I wasn't going to use a dirty one.


Exactly. The comment actually makes no sense at all. How long after cleaning the shower does someone have to wait before using it?


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

I've been completely open with her on the manning up/alpha process, mostly because it's starting to do it's job as fair warning  
She's starting to recognize the destabilization of the status quo, and it both pushing back and accepting it. She's realized that the last year of "waiting for her to want it" was a bust, and I'm done with being frustrated. Her pushing back is mostly her stubborn nature.

After this incident yesterday, she got more housework done than usual, and asked me to come to bed early with her


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Look her in the eye and CALMLY say, you do not have the right to speak to me like I am a child. And take a plate.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you speak to her as if she is a child? Is that what alpha means to you? If so, that sucks and you are gonna get nowhere.


Any sort of parent/child stuff simply must be minimized.

Deflect with humor and wit.

No sarcasm - light touch.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Any sort of parent/child stuff simply must be minimized.
> 
> Deflect with humor and wit.
> 
> No sarcasm - light touch.


And for heaven's sake, use a plate.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> And for heaven's sake, use a plate.


Eating straight from your hands is ill mannered.


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> And for heaven's sake, use a plate.





Conrad said:


> Eating straight from your hands is ill mannered.


Lol. For some reason that reminded me of my boy. We saw How to Train Your Dragon the day before Thanksgiving, (he was 7 at the time), and as we sat down to eat he said "I want to eat like a Viking!" So we gave him a turkey leg and he ate the whole thing holding onto the bone.

Wait, your saying I can't do that?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WorldsApart said:


> Lol. For some reason that reminded me of my boy. We saw How to Train Your Dragon the day before Thanksgiving, (he was 7 at the time), and as we sat down to eat he said "I want to eat like a Viking!" So we gave him a turkey leg and he ate the whole thing holding onto the bone.
> 
> Wait, your saying I can't do that?


Only when she's not watching.


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## Mrs. Knight (Jul 15, 2011)

Sounds like she could re-evaluate the way she speaks and thinks. 

I have my days when my husband will be helping me and I may say something like:
"Dammit! Don't over fill that pan!" 

my husband, and his response is usually something like, 
"I was just trying to help you, I don't think that is a good reason for you to snap at me like that." he says it very calmly, but firmly. 

usually by then I think crap, that was stupid, why does he put up with this, and say 
"I am sorry I snapped at you, you are right that is really no reason to be cranky."

He will say something like, "I forgive you, now why is it bad to over fill the pan?"

"Because the pan has no lid and it spills when I move it to the sink and dirty dish water gets on the counter and floor."

he says something like, "Oh okay I understand."

and there you go we are working like a team again.

I don't know why eating ff of a clean plate is considered "off limits" in your home, maybe she was done with cleaning for that day and wanted to relax and just use paper that day, but she didn't explain that to you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>The more you do so, and humbly apologize, keep your temper, forgive her, love her, the more she will begin to learn how to do the same for you.<<

Unless she doesn't.


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## Mrs. Knight (Jul 15, 2011)

Conrad said:


> >>The more you do so, and humbly apologize, keep your temper, forgive her, love her, the more she will begin to learn how to do the same for you.<<
> 
> Unless she doesn't.


Well yes there is a potential for that, but I don't feel that would happen in this particular case.

He said that she did more work the next day and asked him to come to bed early the next day as well, so I see there that she was wanting forgiveness, and not a narcissist, whether she mentioned the desire for forgiveness verbally or not. 

Snapping back won't help, it will just reinforce the reciprocation of that same behavior.


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## Sleepless_in_Vancouver (Jan 15, 2012)

Maybe she is upset with something else? It's easy to say "Hey, I just washed dishes, could you please use a paper plate?" to even a child. First of all, she could have been irritated about something else. She might not have told you about it. Did you come home late? Does she not like cooking for you? Does she think the way the domestic tasks in the home are split up are fair? Is she not getting enough love in the bedroom? Did she ask for your help and you forgot about it? It could really be a multitude of things- or perhaps it may not even be related to you! She could have had a bad day at work, or the kids could have been being rowdy, or maybe she was having issues in the kitchen!

Another possibility is that she's learned that's OK to talk to people that way. I am that way due to how I grew up, and my partner hates it... And now after 4 years he is starting to get that way! But talking respectfully to one another is important, so you should sit down and have a conversation about it. Are you both often irritable? You might both use tones like this with one another all the time and not notice it.

I think the best response when she's being irritable like that is "Hey, now, Honey is something wrong? That was an awefully irritated response you just gave." Telling her what to do or reacting irritated back is only going to make her defensive. If you are sympathetic, not only will you be more likely to get down to the bottom of what's going on, you will also catch her off guard and possibly make her feel a bit guilty, so she wil think next time before she snaps at you!

Avoiding the issues and "knowing better," talk about who's the alpha, demanding respect, using gender-related approaches, etc. is not how to deal with women or anyone. You don't need to be a whimp to get along with your wife, but certain male behaviors will automatically make women get defensive. I can't speak for your wife, but in the minds of many women, men try to control women, are domineering, have more balls than brains, are controlled by their masculinity, want to put them in their place, etc. I'm not saying it's a fair assumption, but it's what happens and it creates resentment. You being a controlling jerk isn't what you want to be the next topic at the beauty salon!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I don't see this as a fitness test. I see this as her way of telling you that you're not pulling your weight and she's sick of doing dishes, making lunch just to have you take another without care or appreciation of her work...behaving not very differently than the children in fact.
> 
> Why don't you try offering appreciation instead of being an entitled a-hole. Works with me every time.
> 
> ...


How is it not a fitness test. Rather than address the actual issue, she treats him as a child and requires that he process the information and reach the correct conclusion? Why should he reward poor behavior? She treated him poorly and as a child, and his response should be to roll over and ask for more? Why is respect only a one way street? Why is her (or for that matter your) husband required to be respectful but not given the same consideration?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Next time, use the plate you grab and say, "Don't worry, I'll wash it and put it back." 

Simple.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

I don't understand what the big deal was for your wife. So what if she just did dishes? That is why they can be washed and reused!  Majoring in minor...

It is rarely about what you say, but the manner in which those words are spoken. I only expect a nasty tone if I have been rude to my husband. When my hubby snaps at me or raises his voice if I have not done the same, I simply say "Stop yelling. I am speaking nicely to you, thanks!" Works every time.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Trenton said:


> More importantly, actually do what you say in this scenario.


yea, I was going to add, "And then actually DO IT."

:smthumbup:


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Trenton said:


> In my mind, if I were to say that, I would be addressing the issue. I'd be pointing out the obvious...I just washed those plates and don't feel like doing it again after you eat food I prepare. AKA you're a thoughtless A$$.
> 
> Besides, who treated who poorly first? He's treated her poorly and as if he is a child by not recognizing and appreciating her and without thought eating the food she cooked and taking plates she just washed. She pointed it out.
> 
> How is it a reward to recognize the work she does and behave like an equal rather than an alpha that deserves respect even when he is disrespecting her? If recognizing and appreciating her work and understanding why she might feel the way she does is considered a reward in your eyes then you and I would not get along one tiny little bit.


Please tell me you are not going with the "well he did it first" defense. You are better than that. Even assuming that he had treated her poorly first, the proper response is not to scold him like a child. It is to evenly explain the issue (this applies for men and women equally) in a respectful tone.

This is not about alpha or beta, it is about being respectful to your spouse. I am respectful to my wife because she has earned and deserves it.

You are also misunderstanding what I mean by reward. I respect my wife and the work she does at home. I am very appreciative and tell and show her a lot. It is a job I would not like, and I love that she takes it on and does so well at it. What I do not do is reward bad behavior. By that, I mean if my wife has an issue with what I am doing (or not doing), she needs to raise it in a respectful manner, not scold me like a child. She scolds me, and she won’t get a positive response to resolve the real issue (I will not reward her by acknowledging the issue). I don’t deserve to be treated like one of the children. I don’t treat her like that and if I do, she rightly calls me on it. Her doing something I don’t like does not absolve me of my responsibility to be an adult and treat her like one, and the same goes for her. If having an issue with your spouse provides permission for you to be disrespectful, then you are correct, we would not get along.

To give you a real life example, we were getting ready to go out to dinner this weekend. The restaurant is nearby, so we needed to bundle up to walk to it. My wife was irritated because I was not ready, so she told me that it was cold outside and I needed to get a coat in the tone that she uses on the kids. I looked at her, raise one eye and said “Yes Mother” in the tone my kids use when they are frustrated by her. She stopped, immediately relaxed and then laughed. With that, I explained that now that everyone was out of the entry way, I could get to my coat that was in the closet and put it on, just like I intended all along. 

In her frustration, she was not respectful of me, and knew the moment I called her on it. Her body language indicated an apology, which was accepted immediately because it was not a big deal, she was frustrated getting the kids together (I was putting our new puppy in its crate), and did not realize why I had not gotten a coat. To be clear, while I try to give her the same respect, she calls me on it when I fall short, as I deserve.


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

Did I just enter a time machine?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Kobo said:


> Did I just enter a time machine?


LOL. You did, though I think the issue is worth seeing again. Understanding the dynamics and considering how you want and need to deal with them in a relationship are very important.


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