# This really never stops does it?



## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Posted a few times a couple of years ago. ("Mother load of all triggers" thread. It's a doozie should anyone need a good chuckle) -dripping with sarcasm there.
Long story short... H had EA 5 years ago. (He works literally 50 yards from "her" house. (Apparently they met for coffee each morning, (all the guys did since her husband was the boss) anyway, we also went to church with "her". (Still attend when I feel like I can stomach it) her H died suddenly, (3 weeks prior to my Dad passing) he abandoned me to "help her" grieve. (He claims that since I was talking it all out with my sister, that I was being supported) and their EA blossomed out of all that. Oh, and the kicker? She's a licensed therapist! Has her doctorate and everything. (No, we weren't seeking her advice. (Well, I wasn't anyways, can't speak for him) and the clincher?? (Her last name is Love. Not even kidding) had to add all the background tidbits for those who don't feel like finding the old thread.

Anyways, I've been reading on here quite a bit, trying to deal with all of this and somehow make sense out of it all. And, I simply can't. 
We rarely talk about the EA. (he works 15 hour days, and I'm a SAHM) so, while I understand he's exhausted most of the time, I can't help but feel alone. I have 2 children from a previous relationship, (who adore him of course) and that just makes it worse for me.

I'm sorry if I'm jumping around. I really am trying to make this coherent. It's like my head constantly had a million tabs open. I'm sure most everyone can relate. I'm pissed 99% of the time STILL, and I do love him. (Gawd, that sounds so pathetic) does this ever work out? Are there ever any couples who make it out the other side? Because right now I'm not seeing it. I'm beyond depressed, beyond angry an sick to death of hurting like this. This is my life, and I hate every second of it. It's confusing, maddening and utterly ridiculous. I realize I'm likely having a pitty party right now, but damn...

Oh, and our Anniversary is this coming Tuesday too. (Which ironically coincides with his brilliant decision to start seeing "her"). Lucky me right???
(Btw, he hadn't put the dates together. After confronting, I asked him when it began. He said 5-6 months after her H passed. Which you guessed it, November.) that's triggering me big time. Uvh, this so sucks. I don't even know that I'm looking for advice, it seems like I just want to feel understood. Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

The cheated-on spouse suffers a form of PTSD. All the missing pieces go around and around in your head until you can connect the dots and form a complete picture or a consitant narrative.

Then, and only then, can you get to work on the bits of the picture/narrative that you don't like. It might be a little or a lot.

So, what was his/hers/your 'fault' and 'why?' questions will keep churning. Ask him if he can help with missing bits. Get the best picture you can to stop the churning.

Then the repairs. Has he stopped seeing her? Has she stopped persuing him? Are you being more attentive? Is he? Can you change church? Move? ANYTHING you can identify and repair to get yourself back to emotional equilibrium.

Get the missing pieces for your picture. Identify the flaws. Fix them. Don't get ahead of yourself,, that just complicates the churning.

Sounds easy. It ain't. But the 'blueprint' is a plan that should help you.

No two cheated-on experiences are the same, but the 'can't connect the dots' PTSD symptoms are. A library book explaining PTSD,, ideally not specific to physical trauma victims,, should help you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Does he still work by her house? Has he always worked 15 hrs per day?

Can he find another job, ideally closer to home. Be willing to downsize on the home of needed and move where there is more work in his field. 

Did you ever expose their EA? If not, you should. Yes, it's embarrassing, no it's not punishment. Why should you suffer in silence over his shame? And it hurts to keep it in. Trust me, I know.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Why does he work 15 hours a day? How long has that been going on?


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

bp


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## SF-FAN (Sep 24, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> Posted a few times a couple of years ago. ("Mother load of all triggers" thread. It's a doozie should anyone need a good chuckle) -dripping with sarcasm there.
> Long story short... H had EA 5 years ago. (He works literally 50 yards from "her" house. (Apparently they met for coffee each morning, (all the guys did since her husband was the boss) anyway, we also went to church with "her". (Still attend when I feel like I can stomach it) her H died suddenly, (3 weeks prior to my Dad passing) he abandoned me to "help her" grieve. (He claims that since I was talking it all out with my sister, that I was being supported) and their EA blossomed out of all that. Oh, and the kicker? She's a licensed therapist! Has her doctorate and everything. (No, we weren't seeking her advice. (Well, I wasn't anyways, can't speak for him) and the clincher?? (Her last name is Love. Not even kidding) had to add all the background tidbits for those who don't feel like finding the old thread.
> 
> Anyways, I've been reading on here quite a bit, trying to deal with all of this and somehow make sense out of it all. And, I simply can't.
> ...


Different stories but definitely similar feelings. My WW decided to have an EA with a co-worker and even after I begged her to stop contacting him, it moved to an A. She also had the nerve to plan a trip with POSOM a few days after our anniversary so I know somewhat of how you're feeling.

I have my good days but honestly, for the most part, I feel like you do. Just plain miserable. Like there's no light at the end of the tunnel and no happiness in sight. I've lost zest for life and do not really enjoy anything. You're not alone.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Trying to get a better idea of really how you feel about your husband.

It certainly sounds more like you are afraid of leaving rather than really having a love relationship. And that is a wrong reason to stay.

That said, your feelings really never fully go away. But I think you need coping skills and to decide what is best for you moving forward.


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## Calibre1212 (Aug 11, 2014)

I wondered if there is such a thing as a BS syndrome? I wondered about personality & character similarities of BSs...We take so much, brutal much, and still decide to take more. The issue is knowing when the horse is dead and then when to stop beating it. Take courage, it's a process and know that one fine day, you will say enough is enough. Loving him just won't be enough to sustain the status quo anymore...Breathe...


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

First, thank you all for your input. It's comforting in a way to know that somebody else "gets it". I hate that we're all here for the same reason, yet ... Well like I said it's oddly comforting. 
I'll try to answer everyone's questions, (and I'm trying to rush to take the kids to Carching Fire tonight, so if I miss some, I'll reply later.)

Has he always worked that much? No, (and I totally understand where your headed, but it's not at the same place. It's remodeling his friends' house. Which I can (& have) driven by several times just to make sure he's there and alone) 
Did I expose? Absolutely! Chirped like a bird! (Didn't get me very far, but I still did. Even turned her into the State Boards.
Am I scared to leave? Honestly yes, but fully get that you can't base a relationship on fear. Whether it's fear of them doing it again, or fear of being alone, or just plain fear of the unknown) I just don't know what the %$&@ to do about it. I feel so stuck, yet know that it's my own fault. I "don't work", and at the tended age if 18, (3 weeks before graduation) I made the brilliant decision to drop out) trust me, I've kicked my own butt for that one a million times.
How do I feel about him? Hmmm... I love him. But at the same time I hate him. That's such an odd thing. I wonder if he ever was honest before I caught in. Was the first 9 years even real? Or was he always this scheming, manipulative shell of a man? I don't know, but I want to.
We live in a small rural town. So jobs are scarce, and well..... I'm sure you've all heard it before. Bleh

I just want to be better.. I'm tired, I'm sooo very tired. I don't want to be in this "club" any more, and I hate that he pushed me in and is just watching me drown. That sounded mellow-dramatic, sorry. 
The "Betrayed Syndrome" is a dead on analogy (or real condition) it is unbelievably painful. I'm just a mess. But I do thank you all for your responses, truly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

As for the other questions-
Yes, he still works by her. (I've asked him to tell me when he just "happens" to see her. (Not one time in 5 years has he ever acknowledged seeing her. Clearly she's fallen off the face of the Earth. Yah right...)
Is there any pursuing? I have no way of knowing to be honest. Of course he says no, but I'd be the last to find out.
Circumstances prior to the A were- we lost our business and home. He claims he felt like a failure, and she fed his ego by complimenting. (He phrases it as "she stroked me" (meaning ego, but sees how this could easily be misconstrued)
I'm sure back then I could've been more supportive. Could've stroked him myself, but as I mentioned earlier, my Dad was dying. And I tell myself that if there's one time that it's ok to be kind of selfish and fall apart, that would be one of them. Probably not right on my part, but I'm being honest. I've told him repeatedly that I grasp that I played a role in us getting here. I'm not wanting to put the blame of that solely on him. But HE made the decision to throw his family away, not me.

I dunno, this is all so surreal. I want more than anything to dissect this and learn from it. I want to be healthy whether that is with him or not. I just want to feel normal again. Does that part ever come back? (Pretty sure I know that answer already) I spend every night scouring the internet, trying to learn all I can. Wanting desperately to feel understood and in a sense validated for all the crazy places this takes me. This is by far the most debilitating experience ever. I try so hard to explain how I feel, and to break it down for him, but he doesn't get it. Or maybe he can't or won't, I'm not sure which. I get the sense from him that he wants to just pretend everything is fine and just move on. Clearly that's going well.... And I can't do that. I've tried. It doesn't work. Infidelity is the gift that keeps on giving.
Yah, Merry freakin Christmas.

I want off this ride. It's scary and it never seems to end. Maybe I do have PTSD from all of this. That would make sense at least. This is just too much. I I want so badly to live and not just exist. I want to feel secure and safe, but can't. How do people do this to other people and not think a thing about it. Heck, just like every other night, he sleeps like a baby, and I'm wide awake searching for help. Must be nice.. Jerk
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Just reading through some threads and read yours. I'm sorry you are feeling the way you do. It is normal for the most part, because he hasn't proven to your satisfaction that he is not having an affair with her or even someone else. That's likely because you did not set strong boundaries with him after discovery. It's also likely you didn't know how to handle any of it and were terribly overwhelmed with your father dying and the business falling apart. Sounds like there was quite a long period of troubles and they likely included both of you looking inward instead of outward. I don't think that is unusual in those circumstances. 

Folks sleep well at night after doing things which hurt others because they can justify their behaviors and feeling in their own minds. The price for justification is higher or lower, meaning some might think infidelity is okay after finding a hair in their soup and others would have to find a few dead mice. That was gross. Sorry, it was a very clear example that came to me. I must be tired. 

Maybe read Boundaries and Boundaries in Marriage? I think those might help you. I think you two have lots of work ahead, if you really want this to work. Not sure the effort is worth it. Only you can decide what price you are willing to pay with the risks associated. Good luck.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Calibre1212 said:


> I wondered if there is such a thing as a BS syndrome? I wondered about personality & character similarities of BSs...We take so much, brutal much, and still decide to take more. The issue is knowing when the horse is dead and then when to stop beating it. Take courage, it's a process and know that one fine day, you will say enough is enough. Loving him just won't be enough to sustain the status quo anymore...Breathe...


 Of course the Betrayed are shrouded in Fog. Waywards have a head start for detachment while the BS are placed unwillingly in limbo facing 2 choices they never expected or prepared for; Reconcile or Divorce.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Pug,

Your heart needs to heal and it hasn't had the chance. The result? Unresolved Trauma. Your heart and head are trying to resolve that trauma and because the right tools haven't been engaged (from what I can tell) your heart and head have nowhere to go but spin and spin looking for that resolution. 

It is VERY important to pursue resolving this affair trauma since unresolved trauma's can affect your life, health and family long term. It is VERY good you are seeking help. Let's just point you in the BEST directions to get the best resolution if we can. 

One of the best resources I have experienced personally is a website called www.affairrecovery.com. It can address you two as a couple, but also has a program just for the betrayed spouse that is excellent. I also have many books listed if you click on my signature line that are mainly abuse related but many will service your situation as well like Boundaries by Townsend and also Codependency No More, The Language of Letting Go. I will be updating more marriage resources as well as I work through them myself. 

Affair recovery takes two to five years or longer depending on personalities, willingness, past traumas, and how soon recovery is engaged jointly. Your husband has rugswept this affair. Because you are five years down the road my best advice is to focus on yourself and your own healing alone. Forget about him. Put your eyes on your own paper, walk in your own healing for a while, THEN ask him to address anything that is unresolved after you have gained strength. I feel for your pain and know this is one of the worst trauma's anyone can experience and takes a long time to recover from, but it can be done. Cheering you on!


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

My WW watched me go down in flames to the point I contemplated suicide. Did WW help? No. She had all the answers that I needed but she chose to lie. WW chose to protect her AP rather than admit the truth. I too want my life back, but I have serious doubts I will ever be what I was. Infidelity is a disease that kills you from the inside out. I am ten months from d-day but I know now that the effects of infidelity will never go away. As for you being a part to blame for this, no you are not. This was your husbands decision and his alone. You can take blame in the fault of the marriage but not the affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

therapy, counseling ?

5 years is sort of long for still dealing with the emotions of an EA.. 

My Ex wife had 3 EA and 1 PA that I know of, each one was in the same month as our wedding anniversary of September.. The PA was the worst and the EA's Pale in comparison. Its comparing almost getting shot to actually getting shot.. 


The issue now is trying to bring up the EA of 5 years ago. Granted you have a right to be upset and grieve, but when does it become too *OLD* to keep complaining about ? Some might say never. But even me being the BS, I have to say there comes a point where you have to learn how to cope and deal with it for the sake of own well being and that of your family. 

It appears you never learned any coping mechanism or techniques and you should. 

I don't believe in god but I go to therapy like its religion. Once a week on Wednesday since September 25, 2012. In 2012 I went twice to 3 times a week. 

Go to therapy, talk it out and then have a time where you can just unload on him, where he knows you're going to unload and just takes it, probably in therapy.. Its like a screaming session and you get it all out.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

2ntnuf- thank you so much for the recommendations. I will definitely be following through and reading your suggestions.
Blossom- thank you for your kind words, and advice. I cried reading your post. I feel that you totally understand where I'm at. And I'll check out the site you suggested.
Drifting- I'm sorry that I gave the impression that I'm taking responsibility for his EA. I can assure you I'm not. His decisions and actions are all on him. What I meant was that the time previous to the affair, I could have made better choices and chose to "walk in love" more so than what I did. That part is on me. But his moral spiral and the consequences thereof are completely his own.
And Hard- I understand what you're trying to say I think. But, maybe that's part of the problem. I feel like I'm constantly being put on the back burner with my concerns. (As in he works constantly trying to make ends meet, therefor he rarely had time to talk, and when he does, we just fight and it rapidly escalates) I've tried to explain to him that the longer I'm having to keep all this in wIting until we have a chance to discuss everything, the worse it is on me. I'm resentful, angry, numb and struggle daily to figure out when is this going to be over." I rationalize it out in my head and part of me says, "yes he works all the time, he's exhausted, and chances are it won't make a difference. But then the other part if me says, "this is absurd to wait for 5 years. It's not going to make a difference so just move on already."

Do I need therapy? I'd say 100% yes! (That's still a trigger for me btw). Afterall, the ow is a "therapist" and she's obviously severely messed up in the head. So I withdrawal and just vibrate in place. I'm sure I don't have the right coping skills. In fact I know I don't. But [email protected] to be hit with your father dying unexpectedly (under shady circumstances), your husband having an affair, and your child bringing up that they're struggling with suicidal thoughts (she's in therapy weekly, and has made great strides btw. But with no ins., that's an additional $150 a week) ALL at the same time, is mind blowing I can assure you. So, yes, I'm very aware I'm the poster child for needing therapy. With extremely limited resources, zero $, I'm stuck. Gawd, I sound like a whiner, and that's not who I am at all. I'm actually a fairly strong woman, I'm fiercely independent, and can handle a lot. It's just this triple whammy has knocked me for a serious loop. 

Anywho, thank you all for the replys. It does help, and I at least know that not too far gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ahhh... therapist trigger... no wonder you stayed away. 

www.affairrecovery.com will probably not trigger you in that way then. It's not one on one counseling and will probably help you deal with your therapist trigger. So sorry... I had a bad trigger today and I'm post two years myself. Got a thread running on it in CWI. Hope you heal well, Hon.

You are welcome, glad my post hit home for you.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ahhh... therapist trigger... no wonder you stayed away.
> 
> www.affairrecovery.com will probably not trigger you in that way then. It's not one on one counseling and will probably help you deal with your therapist trigger. So sorry... I had a bad trigger today and I'm post two years myself. Got a thread running on it in CWI. Hope you heal well, Hon.
> 
> You are welcome, glad my post hit home for you.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

pugnacious said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for understanding, and I'm so sorry that you triggered. I'll check out your post. I soooo I hate that you are here. Well, you know what I mean.  Anywho, I hope your day gets better, and I'll be praying for your recovery.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyCrushed (Nov 21, 2014)

UGH a therapist?!!!

I recently found out my fiance was having some type of relationship with his co-worker. I don't know any of the details and am just floored. Can't imagine how you are feeling/processing this...

Does he not see that having her at an arms length is making the situation worse?

Are you prepared to leave or start going to counseling so you can get some perspective on what you want to do?

Hope you find some peace in all of this


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Simply- Yes, a therapist. Lucky me right? It's crazy, I know. I honestly feel that I've been plucked from my nice, normal life Into a really, really bad Lifetime B movie. Seriously, the triggers are so absurd it's almost comical. Almost... "Love", (want to puke every time I see or hear it now.) "Therapy"- (they're just as jacked up as the rest of us. Only they know how to hide it better apparently.) "His work", "church"..... Blah, blah... Ugh.

I have started talking with a friend who is majoring in Psychology. (She's graduating this semester, so I'm assuming she knows what she's doing.) It does help me though. For that I'm thankful. I read all these posts, and can't help but think to myself, "Man, so many of these seem so basic. (Not discounting anyone's pain or emotions whatsoever. They all hurt more than any one of us realize.) but like I said in my first post. I seem to have hit the "affair lotto" with all of this. You know that meme on Facebook that says , "if God doesn't give us more than we can handle, then He clearly thinks I'm a [email protected]"? (Not implying I am, but I do chuckle to myself every time someone posts it.

Does my H not realize? Hmmmm, I'd like to think so. I've definitely voiced that to him multiple times. I don't know if he's in denial about it or if he thinks I'm exaggerating. Who knows? And am I prepared to leave? Yes, but like I mentioned earlier, with my daughter struggling like she was, and since she adores him, that honestly scares me more. I mean am I going to throw her into a tailspin by uprooting? I have no clue... Her Dr. Has said that I should do all I can to keep a routine. The more routine things are, the less stress and anxiety for her. (He of course has no idea about any of this, and we never discuss any of this around her.) That and no $$ means I'm stuck. Or that's how it feels to me.

I'm sorry you're here and dealing with this too. Prayers to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Maybe stuck physically, but there is a lot you can do emotionally, mentally and spiritually to heal, grow and begin the process of setting your heart and mind free. Glad you have your friend and us. That is a start. Many books, the affairrecovery site and in time the right professional and the right church. Just praying strength for you!


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

I am sorry for your situation but this is not a post to help you with pity.

It really does stop, the triggers, the rollercoaster, the torment, but you have to want it, you have to be willing to go that extra mile and sever every possible resemble of the life you once knew in order to build the new life you want to have.

I can say this sitting here, I did just that, I have moved on so much faster and grown even more since I left the US to start over in Europe.

Move on in the best direction you can, the opposite of the one you are headed in now.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

BTW, no therapist could have helped me as much as getting out of the toxic situation and away from my old familiarities.

Seek out your Nemesis and use her to your advantage


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Blossom- Thank you for the words of encouragement and the gentle reminder. I needed that. It's way too easy for me to get wrapped up in all the details and lose sight of my strong points.
Wrangler- Thank you also sir for the redirection. And especially the no pity. I loathe that. In "real life" it's typically manifested by the "sympathetic head lean". Yuck! And while I can't move across the world, I can at least change mine right where I'm at.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Op, 
I could be writing your story. I'll be 4 yrs out this May. My life is very much like yours. I have never even really worked. Was in the arts in college. Husband took care of everything, and at the 28 yr of marriage had an affair. My whole world changed over night. My husband infidelity managed to wipe out an almost 30 yr marriage. It change me in such a profound way. I too went into such a depth of depression that I dont wish on my worst enemy. I honestly didnt know if I were going to make it thur. Im still no where near a normal life, or waking up and having that normal day you say you cant wait to get back either. I still count every 6 people to wonder how many other suckers are in the place with me. 

My h and I dont even share a bed together as I cant even put myself in any place that the ow was... 

You are probably more knowlegeable on affairs, healing, not healing, and the whole world of pain better than the rest of us, if you are on- line always serching, as I know for my self, sometimes I think I've earned a PHD in infidelity itself. 

I freak too when I stop and think, It will be 4 years that I found out about my h 2 yr affair & I feel so stuck too wondering if it will ever go away, because if I stay, I live with it, if I leave, I live w it... 
it's feels like a no win win sitution, except to accept one way or another and move on and put the past in the past. A really, really hard thing to do, I know...

~sammy


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

But her on Cheaterville.

A genuine "Love" Therapist on Cheaterville? Oh, that'd go down real well.:FIREdevil:

By the way, people with Doctorates in psychology can be dangerous if they decide to use their knowledge of how the mind works for a bad purpose.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

pugnacious said:


> 2ntnuf- thank you so much for the recommendations. I will definitely be following through and reading your suggestions.
> Blossom- thank you for your kind words, and advice. I cried reading your post. I feel that you totally understand where I'm at. And I'll check out the site you suggested.
> Drifting- I'm sorry that I gave the impression that I'm taking responsibility for his EA. I can assure you I'm not. His decisions and actions are all on him. What I meant was that the time previous to the affair, I could have made better choices and chose to "walk in love" more so than what I did. That part is on me. But his moral spiral and the consequences thereof are completely his own.
> And Hard- I understand what you're trying to say I think. But, maybe that's part of the problem. I feel like I'm constantly being put on the back burner with my concerns. (As in he works constantly trying to make ends meet, therefor he rarely had time to talk, and when he does, we just fight and it rapidly escalates) I've tried to explain to him that the longer I'm having to keep all this in wIting until we have a chance to discuss everything, the worse it is on me. I'm resentful, angry, numb and struggle daily to figure out when is this going to be over." I rationalize it out in my head and part of me says, "yes he works all the time, he's exhausted, and chances are it won't make a difference. But then the other part if me says, "this is absurd to wait for 5 years. It's not going to make a difference so just move on already."
> ...


NLP can help, even the home use CDs, if you have problems (understandable problems) with seeing a therapist.

This will not be the first time with her. She might need to be reported.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks Matt, forgive the ignorance, but what's NLP? And I've already turned her in, but you are correct. Around year 2-3 of this saga, my H and I sought out a therapist from our church. (I went with the pretense that I wouldn't name names quite yet just to make sure that "she" wasn't in tight with the counsellor. She thankfully wasn't.) And the funny part was after about 45 minutes of me explaining why we were there, I said that the AP also went to church there. The counsellor's face turned blank, then white and she said, "does this EA involve someone named ______ ________ by chance?" I'm sure my expression was priceless, and I said. "Yah, same person." She went on to explain that she'd seen 4-5 other couples from church for her "doings". Wouldn't name names obviously, but yah..... He sure picked a winner. She's a disgusting predator IMO, plain and simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Sammy, I'm so sorry you're in this awful "club" as well. It's the most horrific, demeaning & isolating thing in the world. I so feel your pain. Funny that you mentioned the no sleeping together thing. My H tried to ask me about that earlier this evening. Not even kidding... He actually said, "why are you sleeping on the couch?" (My daughter was in the room, so I played nice, but I wanted to yell, "because the thought of you next to me makes my skin crawl you self-absorbed, narcissistic @ss." But I didn't....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Just caught your other comment Matt. . And yes, whenever I hear Kiss' "Call me Dr. Love" I throw up in my mouth. You're so correct, she's extremely dangerous and methodical.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> Thanks Matt, forgive the ignorance, but what's NLP? And I've already turned her in, but you are correct. Around year 2-3 of this saga, my H and I sought out a therapist from our church. (I went with the pretense that I wouldn't name names quite yet just to make sure that "she" wasn't in tight with the counsellor. She thankfully wasn't.) And the funny part was after about 45 minutes of me explaining why we were there, I said that the AP also went to church there. The counsellor's face turned blank, then white and she said, "does this EA involve someone named ______ ________ by chance?" I'm sure my expression was priceless, and I said. "Yah, same person." She went on to explain that she'd seen 4-5 other couples from church for her "doings". Wouldn't name names obviously, but yah..... He sure picked a winner. She's a disgusting predator IMO, plain and simple.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Has the church put her out?


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Ya know Blossom, you'd thinks so. But nope. She played the "widow card" to the hilt. Our pastor said- (after my H and I told him the whole story) "Well, you know there are several kinds of affairs. And __________ has been going through so much (yah, her husband died and she's trying to mount my husband makes complete sense)I'm assuming that he meant since there were no bodily fluids involved (that I know of anyways) that it's not such a big deal. In that moment I knew I was screwed. (Pun intended) I didn't figure it was my job to educate him. I'd just come off as irrational, grasping or whatever else. Don't get me wrong, my pastor is a good guy, just extremely ignorant about this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> Ya know Blossom, you'd thinks so. But nope. She played the "widow card" to the hilt. Our pastor said- (after my H and I told him the whole story) "Well, you know there are several kinds of affairs. And __________ has been going through so much (yah, her husband died and she's trying to mount my husband makes complete sense)I'm assuming that he meant since there were no bodily fluids involved (that I know of anyways) that it's not such a big deal. In that moment I knew I was screwed. (Pun intended) I didn't figure it was my job to educate him. I'd just come off as irrational, grasping or whatever else. Don't get me wrong, my pastor is a good guy, just extremely ignorant about this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That right there is what is wrong in many churches today.

Our church would have put her out after that many marriages affected by her behavior.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> That right there is what is wrong in many churches today.
> 
> Our church would have put her out after that many marriages affected by her behavior.


Amen! I have left churches that did not deal with stuff like this. The whole church eventually will be corrupted because it isn't dealt with.

The pastor might be a "good" guy but he needs some balls and a backbone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

As you should. :smthumbup:


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

I whole heartedly agree!! Talking about church made me remember this little gem. (Background- the counsellor at church was holding a "are you stuck? Class. (As in relationships, jobs, etc) so, I figured why not, and I went. She was teaching on the power of forgiveness, and asked us to write letters to others that we struggle to forgive. I of course chose to write to "her")

And in my defense, she NEVER said not to actually send it. Lol

So I wrote this long letter, (as I read through it again, it hits home how much better off I seemed. (Of course several more years of trickle truths, gas lighting, manipulation and the like will do that to a person) I figure you guys will be able to appreciate it. . Oh, and the counsellor about crapped when I told her it had been mailed.



__________ , 
I’m sure you didn’t expect to be receiving this. At least not 2 years later. I didn’t intend on writing this, and fully expected that any future involvement with you would require law enforcement and medical services, so there you have it. (No, there is no threat implied, just being honest.) Sometimes, people make the error of mistaking my kindness for weakness. I hope this dispels that theory if that’s the case.
The purpose of this letter is mainly to get some things off my chest. I figure its time. You would figure someone with your last name would have a better grasp and respect for the sanctity of marriage. I guess not. I’ve despised you for long enough. I know it’s not healthy for me to carry all of that around, so I’ve prayerfully decided that I should release it back to its source. Now, instead of hating you, I pity you. I understand the Bible tells us to forgive. I’ve had a very hard time putting that into action. In theory it sounds so simple. How do I forgive someone who deliberately did everything she could to tear my family apart? I take that very personal. You not only went after someone else’s husband, (I’m not going to kid either one of us by saying mine was the first, nor will he be the last. From what I’ve been told, there’s several more couples laying in your wake. And that’s only from church. I can’t even begin to imagine what a disaster your, “personal” life must be like.) But in addition, you also maliciously went after my children. You see, by invading our family like a cancer, you crept in little by little. Tried to ensnare their step-dad and infect the rest of us. But alas, to no avail. We are all very much healthy, whole and complete.
(I’m going to assume you’re feigning being responsible for such a cowardly act, so I’ll continue to explain.) You see ________ , when one behaves inappropriately and throws herself at a married man, it tends to impact the family unit as a whole. My children are very much aware of your actions, and sadly have had to learn way too much, way too soon about accountability, about forgiveness and about boundaries. Life lessons that at the time, a 14 and 10 year old should never have had to have faced. But, thankfully, they’re resilient, and in a lot of ways, they are better off. Simply because our family is much stronger and much more centered now. I have no doubt whatsoever that we will remain that way for the rest of our lives.
One thing you may not have been aware of, (but I am fairly certain you were, only because we were, “Facebook friends” at the time) is that my father passed away one month after ________________ (her husband) did. Let that sink in........ When you were deliberately scheming and toying with my husband, I was going through absolute hell. I’ll spare you the details. I’m assuming you’re capable of processing the severity of that. It does escape me what (WH) possibly saw in someone resembling a Chihuahua, but that’s neither here nor there. I have come to realize that I can pretty much handle anything thrown at me. I’m much stronger than I thought was possible and I can face any obstacle thrown my way. That’s one of the qualities (my H) loves about me. In his words, “What I did was disgusting and I’ll spend my lifetime making it up to you. Thank you for being strong enough to give us a second chance. I love you and I always will.” Of course the conversations go much more in depth and occur more frequently, but I would hate to sound like I was gloating.
I’m not going to lie and tell you this has been easy. Of course it hasn’t. I’ve had some very hard days, but thankfully, they’re becoming a distant memory. That’s another area that really disturbs me. You, someone who is fully aware and more educated in the area of Psychology than the average person, you knew the implications of your actions in advance. You know full well the process of what the betrayed spouse goes through. The depth of the emotions and the repercussions involved. And yet, you continued, relentlessly. That is beyond disgraceful. It’s pathetic, deplorable and sick. I’ve debated long and hard about whether or not to contact the State Licensing Board and make them aware of your actions. I do think they should be aware of them and I'd prefer they make any decisions based solely on your behavior not something I write, but this will have to do. Expect the inquiry. Additionally, (WH) has said he is willing to give an affidavit or testify under oath if requested. I should add Pastor "M" and others are very much aware of the entire situation, but given your innate ability to distort the truth and manipulate it into something entirely different, I don’t hold much hope that you’ll be held accountable there. I’m sure that in the end, you’ll come out the victim and play the, “pity card” yet again. “Poor OW..” Yes, poor (OW) indeed. Seems to be a pattern.
Your behavior, the day of the prayer tunnel at church astounds me. Had I have known it was you carrying on that night, things would have played out quite differently. I had developed night blindness previously, and since the lights were dimmed in the sanctuary, I couldn’t make out faces that night. I have since then been prescribed glasses and am able to see just fine now. I am curious as to why you were weeping so heavily? You kept saying, “I am so sorry, I’m so sorry, please forgive me...” Forgive you exactly for what (OW) Forgive you for behaving like a harlot? Forgive you for trying to destroy my family? Forgive you for trying to steal my husband? Forgive you for being manipulative and conniving? Forgive you for being a predator? Those are the questions I would have asked that night had I known it was you. But, it’s probably best that things didn’t work out that way, I’m sure you’ll agree. I have too much respect for Pastor M and the Lord to lower myself and have a confrontation in God’s house. I do have scruples and morals.
You see (OW) .. I DO forgive you. I’ve also forgiven my husband and myself. Definitely not for your sake, but for mine, my children’s AND my husband’s sakes. And while I do forgive you, I will absolutely NEVER forget. I’ve held my husband accountable for his part in all of this, and realize he is just as guilty as you. But after much discussion and praying, we both have reached the same conclusion. He got caught up in some bizarre game and fully recognizes that now. He has since then repented, prayed and asked forgiveness from me as well as our children. You see, what you meant for harm and destruction has instead backfired and turned into happiness, security and a love much deeper than anything that tries to come against it. All is very much well with my family, I sincerely hope one day you’ll be able to say the same and mean it.
Oh, and no, I do not require any sort of reply. In fact, it wouldn’t do you much good to try. In essence, it would fall on deaf ears and be placed in the closest trash can or deleted entirely. I’ve said all I need to, and I have my peace. I pray you’ll find yours. I fully expect this to be paraded around and put up for display. Somehow attempting to make me the, “bad guy.” So proclaim your innocence if that’s what you think you need to do. But you, (my H) the Lord and I all know different. I guess it boils down to whatever helps you sleep at night. All is very much well in my world. I hope you’ll be able to say the same at some point.
Sincerely,
Me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

pugnacious said:


> Sammy, I'm so sorry you're in this awful "club" as well. It's the most horrific, demeaning & isolating thing in the world. I so feel your pain. Funny that you mentioned the no sleeping together thing. My H tried to ask me about that earlier this evening. Not even kidding... He actually said, "why are you sleeping on the couch?" (My daughter was in the room, so I played nice, but I wanted to yell, "because the thought of you next to me makes my skin crawl you self-absorbed, narcissistic @ss." But I didn't....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is a trigger for me... I mean, I just dont understand how people put PA behind them ? How do you not always feel like you arent laying in her place? There is always 3 of us there...

~sammy


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> It is a trigger for me... I mean, I just dont understand how people put PA behind them ? How do you not always feel like you arent laying in her place? There is always 3 of us there...
> 
> ~sammy


Sorry for the TJ. 

I gotta say, this could be another good thread topic. I am confused about this as well. Here is my opinion, for the very little it is worth.

I think my x cheated because she had poor boundaries and lacked the "guts" to do the honorable thing. But, that's not the only reason. I think she also wanted to make me suffer a bit. I just don't think she realized that I loved her, and it would hurt me immeasurably. I don't think she really knew me. She was convinced I was like everyone else, and I'm obviously not.

So, she gave a kind of payback for the ways she perceived she was "wronged" by me. It gave her a justification. While justifications are wrong to a BS, they are needed in our lives. We must find a reason to continue through life and we justify our actions throughout. Just take some time to think about that. We all have opinions. Why are they right for each of us? Because we justify them at an acceptable level in our minds. Those may not be acceptable to others. Doesn't matter. We have to do that to keep our sanity. This is in all aspects of our lives where we make decisions. 

Anyway, I am not condoning harming anyone. I'm not condoning breaking the law. I'm not condoning sin. I'm just expressing my thoughts on the matter. I have never gotten "even" for what happened to me; neither with my exwives, nor their AP/'s. I don't plan to do anything, either. Just figuring out how to heal well would be glorious. 

I feel for you and can somewhat understand.


ETA: Or...She knew exactly what would hurt/harm me. Seems more likely now, doesn't it?  It's hell going through this when you didn't want any of it. You are not alone folks.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

If she does not admit her wrong doing and apologise I would do as the Bible says to and bring it before the church congregation. I bet it would only take once and no body in the church would have issues between them. And I have always been a "Rock the boat, hell! I'm gonna sink it! I can swim."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Sammy. I'm so sorry for triggering you. That was never my intention. And I completely understand where you're coming from. Granted, my situation was "only" an EA (that I know of). I'll never understand how they justify their behavior, or what their inner dialog must be like. It must be wracked with excuses, lies and self absorbed madness. I think 2ntnuf's description is very accurate.. Bleh... No thanks. I'll stick with integrity and morals.

Divinely, I suspect we are alike in our approaches. I tend to be more of the "in your face" type also. Not obnoxious mind you, but I won't hesitate to call out. As for "her"? After my pastor dismissed and justified, I thought, "well, ok. I wonder how many more marriages have to fall apart before there's any accountability." Who knows? She's deranged. I so wonder just what her practice must be like. (I do know she is based at a mitary hospital, and that really bothers me. I envision her "counseling" a soldier while his wife is in the waiting room, and having to wipe her chin before their "session" is over.) Sorry, that was gross, but It honestly has crossed my mind.l
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Girl, I just finished reading the letter you sent and all I got ta say is big ole standing O. :smthumbup:

Love it!!!


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thanks Blossom! It felt so good to get all of that out. Oh, and no, she's never tried to reply in any way either. Heard from a friend of a friend that she's scared of me. (I help H teach firearm courses sometimes on the weekends, so I'm assuming that's a factor) but I've never threatened her in any way. (Thought about it A LOT, but never have.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Lots of good thoughts here

I feel very similarily as Pug and other BSs here...many years out from DDay and working on good R and trying to move on. We will have weeks were we feel like young lovers and I begin to believe I am beginning to move on. ...is this what forgiveness feels like? ...I am getting my life back... my husband is redeeming himself and I am gaining back my respect for him ...when boom! something triggers me and I feel angry, resentful and just plain disgusted.

I look at my FWH and cannot see the good and faithful man he is trying to be but the lying deceitful coward that his decision to cheat not just once but twice in LTAs made him. I fear to share my confusion and feelings with him because I know they make him feel like s**t and heaven forbid that he should feel like s**t!

So then I blame myself for not being able to move on and forget the past and try to FORGIVE. I have done an awful lot of thinking about that and about what it means to lay the past down and live in the present...look forward to a new life blahblah blah.

What I have discovered for myself is that when a person is betrayed to the core of their soul by infidelity, something within them is broken forever. No amount of heavy lifting, making amends or apologies and remorse from the wayward will ever fix that. There is no way to balance the scales of justice which is what every BS demands and cries out for. One may even begin to doubt the grace of God...

And so we muddle along looking for and following some new advice that will become the magic formula that will heal us and make our lives and love shiney and new. Or maybe we will just wake up one morning and discover the burden is gone as if in a dream.

Oh yes, we have learned our lessons, we know now how to strengthen our marriage and communicate and keep those boundaries nice and strong but it still doesn't relieve the everlasting nugget of pain that remains lodged in that broken heart, does it?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> One may even begin to doubt the grace of God...


Been doing this quite a bit in the recent past. That was a thoughtful post. Thank you.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

All- oh my gosh! You nailed it perfectly! That's EXACTLY what it's been like. It's so awful. So many dips and turns that I wonder most of the time where it leads next. But you are so right about the whole cycle of it all. Ecstatic, amazing "old" times, followed by a crushing reality that this is now " our" life. I completely agree that I'll never be the same either. I'm trying to accept that and build from there, but even that pisses me off. I feel like a big ball of resentment, hatred and self loathing much of the time, and blame myself far too often when I spiral Into the Infidelity abyss. That's so what it is too. This bottomless pit of horror that sucks you in with no warning.

I so hate it, and wish I could be "innocent" again. I really miss the old me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The only easy part of R is the decision to do it. D is much easier (and I did both). 

You have to create a new marriage because the old one's gone. It's a long, hard road. But many succeed.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

What I've been learning I have to learn to know and be married to someone new... someone different than the guy I first married... 

~sammy


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Ditto. We tore ours down to the bare dirt like Extreme Home Makeover Marriage Edition.


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> I so hate it, and wish I could be "innocent" again. I really miss the old me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really? I can say that almost 3yrs out and a false R later I hate the old me, the one who wanted to R, the one who was weak and lacked the courage and inner strength to bail or juust tell her to phuck off.

Innocents is sweet and nice, but knowing the horrible world has made me stronger.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

It's definitely made me stronger. That's for sure. But it's also made me jaded, bitter, untrusting, cautious, angry, and there's about 50 more descriptors to add. 

Maybe it's all the unique triggers I have- ("Love", counseling, church, etc that have unequivocally changed me too, except for the obvious. I mean seriously, how many times a day does one run into "Love"? People say it constantly, it's on clothing, decorative items, tv., radio... There's absolutely no escape. I so wish I could be one of the "typical" cases. But oh no.... I get to "go big or go home."

I miss trusting others, and not constantly questioning other's intentions. I miss relaxing and just being able to watch a movie like a normal person. It's the little things like that that I miss the most.

Maybe one day, who knows?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> What I've been learning I have to learn to know and be married to someone new... someone different than the guy I first married...
> 
> ~sammy


Yes!! That's what I tell my H. I try to explain to him that it's so bizarre to be married to a man that LOOKS like my husband, but is a total stranger. I said that it's as though I'm now married to my husband's murderer, and he just "happens" to be his twin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

allwillbewell said:


> Lots of good thoughts here
> 
> I feel very similarily as Pug and other BSs here...many years out from DDay and working on good R and trying to move on. We will have weeks were we feel like young lovers and I begin to believe I am beginning to move on. ...is this what forgiveness feels like? ...I am getting my life back... my husband is redeeming himself and I am gaining back my respect for him ...when boom! something triggers me and I feel angry, resentful and just plain disgusted.
> 
> ...



And we never even asked for any of it...it really changes you.

~sammy


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

wranglerman said:


> Really? I can say that almost 3yrs out and a false R later I hate the old me, the one who wanted to R, the one who was weak and lacked the courage and inner strength to bail or juust tell her to phuck off.
> 
> Innocents is sweet and nice, but knowing the horrible world has made me stronger.


********************************************************
Totally agree brother...

After seeing the pics of her and her Boss (OM)...NO Forgiveness...No Reconcilition.. NO MORE Marriage...

I filed for D within 60 day....I have seen people HERE(mainly BHs)...Try to R with their WWs...AND STRUGGLE FOR YEARS...YEARS WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.. TRIGGER,HAVE SELF DOUBT AND ESTEEM ..IT NEVER ENDS..

When i filed for D...Kicked her OUT...it was done...

Funny I never TRIGGER.....


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

pugnacious said:


> Yes!! That's what I tell my H. I try to explain to him that it's so bizarre to be married to a man that LOOKS like my husband, but is a total stranger. I said that it's as though I'm now married to my husband's murderer, and he just "happens" to be his twin.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I also dont even know the "good changed guy," he has become. He's not the same guy either... ((sigh))

~sammy


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

badkarma2013 said:


> ********************************************************
> Totally agree brother...
> 
> After seeing the pics of her and her Boss (OM)...NO Forgiveness...No Reconcilition.. NO MORE Marriage...
> ...


How are you doing my man?

It's kind of eerie how your bout with infidelity mirrors mine. 

I handled things a bit differently. I had an RA with the OM's wife, and both he and my ex had the privilege of seeing it.

I too never have triggered.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

BradWesley said:


> How are you doing my man?
> 
> It's kind of eerie how your bout with infidelity mirrors mine.
> 
> ...



Yes...I outed the OM to his now EXW...and she destroyed him in his D....I filed a multimillion lawsuit against their company...they we subsuquently FIRED....

Then filed for D.....Wasnt much to say after that...


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> .
> 
> .
> 
> ...




What do you mean by "abandon"? Is it that he wasn't emotionally there for you, or did he leave the house and stay with her for days or weeks?



I am not impressed by your pastor's response. If your pastor is married, have you considered talking to the pastor's wife? She mmight be disappointed in his approach and nudge him in the right direction. She might also be concerned herself about his willingness to rug sweep this woman, and her APs', behavior. (Not eager to point it out, but it is a possibility he too has "comforted her", depending on his personal mix of poor decision making and flaws.)



FWIW, there is only so far you can go thinking about "them" -- and this is true no matter what sub-forum and thread we are in here. It is time to focus on you, on taking care of you, and learning the choices you can make to heal and thrive for your own sake. It sounds like that is why you are here. If so, I am glad, and I hope you keep turning the stones over until you find what you need to understand and then take action. Your future looks better when it is in your own loving hands.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

pugnacious said:


> Sammy, I'm so sorry you're in this awful "club" as well. It's the most horrific, demeaning & isolating thing in the world. I so feel your pain. Funny that you mentioned the no sleeping together thing. My H tried to ask me about that earlier this evening. Not even kidding... He actually said, "why are you sleeping on the couch?" (My daughter was in the room, so I played nice, but I wanted to yell, "because the thought of you next to me makes my skin crawl you self-absorbed, narcissistic @ss." But I didn't....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Do you sleep with your hubby at night normally? Are you intimate with him? Do you do nice things together, do you enjoy being with him? Do you even want to be with him anymore? Do you feel really sad that's it's the way it is, and it's just really trying to come to terms within yourself that is over? And your new reality just sucks...

But like one of the other posters said, there comes a time when we gotta accept our reality and either sh** or get off the pot... not easy to do, I know, I'm a year behind you. I often wonder if filling my life with fun new exciting things, experiences, instead of dealing w trying to learn to live with infidelity in my life every day really isn't the better way... I'm almost shameful for how long it's taken me to get thur this all. 

The hard part is when one has a spouse doing everything humanly possible to ask for forgiveness, and one still cant move on together. 

~sammy


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Please stop beating yourselves up for not following other's timelines. It isn't a race. Some of us were really hurt beyond what other's can even imagine. They didn't and can't live our lives. They can only compare with their experiences. Ideally, we would not be hurt at all. We would have easily made the choices necessary to heal and bring back "life". Those are ideals. If I wish in one hand and poop in the other, which one will fill up first? I can only deal with what is each day. Is part of that going over and over the past to my satisfaction? If that's what it takes for me to heal, tough to those who don't like it. I have to take care of me, cause no one else will do it.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Sorry for not responding. The holidays have made things hectic, but I'll try to answer everything as best I can.)

Sammy- Yes, it does change you. In every capacity. I act different, I look different, and I perceive differently. I guess in a way that's "normal" when something like this happens. Then, that in itself makes you mad, hurt or whatever, and the cycle continues. Yes, to all of your questions above. Is it easy? I'm sure the general consensus is "hell no". I completely relate to your posts and where you're at. It does suck, very much. Like you, I also wonder if I'll ever get past all of this. Will I ever get to a place where no matter how hard he's trying that I won't be disgusted by what he's done? I do t know, I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. It very hard to not get wrapped up in the details and drama of it. And like you, I wonder I should be further along in this by now or if I'm missing the point entirely and just spinning my wheels. I so feel ya girl.


2ntnuf- You're so correct, (and love the "poop in one hand" analogy. My Granny says that too, love that woman. She's my hero. Strong doesn't even begin to cover it. I suspect you're much like her. Thank you for the reminder to not compare my journey with others'. Admittedly, it's an easy trap to fall into. Late at night, when I'm scouring the internet, it seems like all the sites give this "standard" for healing. (Approx 2-5 years) and I find myself thinking, "What the $&@%, am I just a freak? Is every other wife "thanking" their H for screwing up their marriage, Err "making it the best thing that's ever happened to it? (That STILL kills me when I read a W actually tells their H that during R) I'm nowhere near that. I'm still at the "rip his testicles off and gut him like a fish" stage. Oh and my Granny also says this little mental morsel- (when referring to someone having a huge motor home. [shes preoccupied with them for some bizarre reason} "Boy I wish I had that, and he had a feather up his butt, that way we'd both be tickled."

Piece- By "abandoned" I did mean emotionally. (Whether it was physical, I'll never know) he never left home to go to her house. No, that was conveniently done at work. He never admitted to any of it, and looking back, I can recall times when he'd come home and be preoccupied. He'd say, "Oh, poor OW, she's going through so much." And I'd literally stare at him in disbelief. 
And I believe you brought up an excellent suggestion about my pastor's wife. I'm betting that her opinion would be much more different than his, and I think I'm going to do just that. Thank you! And yes, I'm slowly learning to take control of my own destiny and that I get to say who plays a part in it and who doesn't. I'm so thankful for everyone here on TAM. I hate that we are all here for the same reason, but it is reassuring that others can relate, offer advice and hold us up when it gets rough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

This just hit me.... After I posted, re-reading, wanting to make sure it came across as coherent. "Is this making any sense at all? Or am I sounding like a whiner? (It's difficult to get across your feelings in a readable, compact post that doesn't over-stimulate everyone. But the word that popped in my head was "suspended". That's how I feel, and have felt for the past 5 years.

It feels like my world is in some bizzaro (stolen from Superman) suspended state while the rest of the world carries on as usual. I don't like it at all, and I do want to change that. I'm just stuck in that I don't know how to. There's only so much I can do (without upsetting my daughter's cart so to speak) does that make sense at all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

makes perfect sense

and the ripping off testicles and gutting him like a fish comment made me laugh out loud. 

Your situation was an outlier because of the therapist trigger. The 2 to 5 years is an average.

You are right where you need to be in YOUR processing. Accept yourself. You didn't cause your triggers, but going forward you can manage them. Its just a learning curve. You will get there.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

pugnacious said:


> This just hit me.... After I posted, re-reading, wanting to make sure it came across as coherent. "Is this making any sense at all? Or am I sounding like a whiner? (It's difficult to get across your feelings in a readable, compact post that doesn't over-stimulate everyone. But the word that popped in my head was "suspended". That's how I feel, and have felt for the past 5 years.
> 
> It feels like my world is in some bizzaro (stolen from Superman) suspended state while the rest of the world carries on as usual. I don't like it at all, and I do want to change that. I'm just stuck in that I don't know how to. There's only so much I can do (without upsetting my daughter's cart so to speak) does that make sense at all?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It makes perfect sense, and can sucks big times...

~sammy


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I guess at some point if you are going to R and FWS is doing ALL that (s)he can to heavy lift, the BS just has to simply give it up: the anger, the resentment, the envy, the jealousy, the sense of injustice, the suspicion, the desire for revenge, all of it.

If we (the BSs) are serious about R and are getting all we need from the FWS in reference to our healing we simply have to suck it up, stuff the triggers and endless probing and redefine our lives and marriage from that point on.

Is it fair? He11 no! Do BSs have to do the lions share of the emotional healing while carrying a burden that will never be lifted? Yes but thats the way it is ..it sucks but thats life. If a BS truely doesn't like it or cannot accept it they should divorce and move on and free both of them from the emotional prison they are in.

Thats my take on it and I hope by doing that the returning love and forgiveness will overcome all the damage done in the past. Of course it can only work if the FWS is truly remorseful, tranparent and reset the boundaries permanently.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

allwillbewell said:


> I guess at some point if you are going to R and FWS is doing ALL that (s)he can to heavy lift, the BS just has to simply give it up: the anger, the resentment, the envy, the jealousy, the sense of injustice, the suspicion, the desire for revenge, all of it.
> 
> If we (the BSs) are serious about R and are getting all we need from the FWS in reference to our healing we simply have to suck it up, stuff the triggers and endless probing and redefine our lives and marriage from that point on.
> 
> ...



That is the true reality, and even if the love and forgiveness may not be there, that the bs can learn to live an ok life again w the spouse they once started out with. 

~sammy


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

sammy3 said:


> that is the true reality, and even if the love and forgiveness may not be there, that the bs can learn to live an ok life again w the spouse they once started out with.
> 
> ~sammy


OR NOT..... With the info i had at my desposial my D flew thru...

IT ENDED THE SECOND I SAW THE PICS......with that being said ...Its funny I NEVER TRIGGER.....EVER


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I thought the premise of this thread was the complications that result from RECONCILIATION. Divorce is another whole issue. You really can't compare the two.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

I understand what your saying "All" (and for the record, the divorce talk doesn't bother me a bit.) it's actually part of it. Do I? Don't I? The back and forth of it. Heck, that varies daily. Things go smoothly for a few days, then "bam!" Back to indecision and sheer inner chaos again. Even 5 years later, it's still that way. (Hence the title of the thread.) I can say that we both bare the responsibility for it still being so nuts.

I also get what your saying about the BS having to "suck it up". And while I get it, that's a major stumbling block for me. I can always chalk it up to my pride, or my immaturity or blame him for all of it. When honestly, I'm betting it's a mixture of all of the above. But even knowing that still doesn't help. It actually pisses me off. My internal dialog goes something like this--

" let me get this straight, I've supported, nurtured, loved, etc you for the past 15 years. I gave you all of me. The good and the bad. And through all of life's ups and downs, I've always put you and my children first. And the ONE time something goes crazy in my life. (Several things actually at the same time) and THAT'S when you choose to be profoundly selfish? WTH? What does that say about you? What does that say about me? Where do we stand now? How do I know this won't happen again? How can I ever trust you? How can I ever trust myself? Who the hell do you think you are?

And while I've asked every one of those. He's tried to answer them as best as he could I guess. Like I'll ever really know if he's being honest, he is after all a selfish liar. I don't want to keep punishing him and I do believe he's truly sorry. But his communication skills are whack and he's about as self aware as a shoe. In his mind I'm sure he thinks he's doing all he can to be accountable, be trustworthy and become who he said he was. But honestly does the BS ever know for sure just how deep they've dug for the raw truth?

I don't know, I really don't. It's an evil cycle. I love this man more than myself and yet I despise him. I'm stuck and I don't know how to get un-stuck. I have horrible issues with the simplistic answers of "just jump in" and pay no mind to your inner voice. Mine is screaming non stop, and I want off this merry go round from hell. I'm sure I'll get some jabs or hard truth talk, but dammit, I didn't do anything wrong! (Not enough to warrant all of this anyways) I'm not perfect, and have no trouble me admitting my shortcomings, but I also can't pretend everything is hunky either. 

I'm assuming this is likely PTSD talking, but even so, what the hell do I do about it? Go see a fine "counselor"? Go talk to my pastor? Go talk with my husband. Seriously, every single one of those "answers" has practically destroyed me during all of this. I'm likely just having a pitty party, and I may see things differently tomorrow. Heck I don't know. This just sucks. 5 years later, and it still sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Yup - Pretty convinced it's PTSD,, or near enough to make little difference.

What can you do about it? A GOOD therapist if you can afford one.

(Library) books and online. Learn about it and how to organise the thoughts that you currently have on your random playlist.

^^ Up there, you came up with "suspended" all on your own. You did that by focusing on creating clarity for us. Writing stuff down, here or anywhere - even at home on your own - will throw things up that you never knew you knew. Keep on doing it,,, anywhere. It'll help you. 

Find the dots. Join the dots for a coherent/linear narrative.

NOT a piece of cake. More a display case of massive gateaux,, but you'll get there if you try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I totally get what you describe Pug. Hate and love at the same time and especially the feeling of time suspended : I dont feel as if I have done a worthwhile thing in 4 years...that my own growth as a person fulfilling my own potential has actually devolved. I certainly dont think I am a better person for all this.

Devils advocate question: If you feel so unhappy after 5 years , have you considered seriously a trial seperation? I regret not seperating from my FWH immediately after Dday. His behavior during a seperation would have told me alot about how he really felt, how remorseful he was and he true depth of his feelings for the OW. Things I think and question way too much still.

Maybe you need time apart to really heal and work thru your feelings. ....including working OUT your feelings of anger and hate. Trying to rebuild a marriage working around all that emotional chaos that is futile in my opinion.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I think separation is a good idea.

Also.. this sounds like Stockholm Syndrome some how.

Look in my signature to my main thread and you will see a link there for it. May or may not resonate, also the book Betrayal Bonds.

There is something additional here that is keeping you stuck. PTSD, sure, but PTSD isn't typically circular, but Stockholm is.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

pugnacious said:


> Sorry for not responding. The holidays have made things hectic, but I'll try to answer everything as best I can.)
> 
> Sammy- Yes, it does change you. In every capacity. I act different, I look different, and I perceive differently. I guess in a way that's "normal" when something like this happens. Then, that in itself makes you mad, hurt or whatever, and the cycle continues. Yes, to all of your questions above. Is it easy? I'm sure the general consensus is "hell no". I completely relate to your posts and where you're at. It does suck, very much. Like you, I also wonder if I'll ever get past all of this. Will I ever get to a place where no matter how hard he's trying that I won't be disgusted by what he's done? I do t know, I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out. It very hard to not get wrapped up in the details and drama of it. And like you, I wonder I should be further along in this by now or if I'm missing the point entirely and just spinning my wheels. I so feel ya girl.
> 
> ...


I want you to know. I'm only here because I relate to everyone here that is having trouble accepting a reality we didn't want and a life we would have preferred never to live.

I only posted that because I saw several that made me afraid you all were going to drag each other down. It's good to talk about things. It's also good to be grateful, laugh as much as possible, enjoy what we can of our lives and let the stuff we cannot control rest sometimes. 

You made me laugh with that feather saying. 

I did not get that saying from family. I got it from a guy I used to work with. He said it to me at a time when I was struggling and he new it. That was more than twenty years ago. 

I have no idea how old you are. I'm 52. I wish I was 14 or 15 again. It was an age that changed the trajectory of my life. Anyway, there is no going back and I'd have to know then what I know now. 

I can tell you feel better. It's good to be angry and use it for motivation to grow and change. I think you are doing well. 

I'm telling you, I feel like a comrade. Glad you posted. I was concerned that you were not well. I think you are alright. He was more than a jerk. I don't see how you could think otherwise. 

Blossom is right. We are on our own timing. A friend I haven't seen in years came by last night. He was hoping I'd go out for a beer. I didn't, but we did talk. I think he wants to help me, but I am too suspicious to allow him. He made a preliminary promise to go get a beer in the near future. He even talked about strip clubs. I don't need either of those and told him so. I asked what I would do after getting all worked up by some women? I just don't see that as worth it, I told him. I also told him I don't have the money to do that stuff. It's true. I don't. Why do others think I have money? I don't understand. I think I know why. It has to do with me not giving a crap any more. In other words, I don't have the ambition I once had. I was driven and had a goal or two. No more. Those are all gone. 

See? We all have our issues. I am least among you all. I don't want you to be where I am. Push on.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you guys. Sincerely... I wasn't doing very well. It's weird for me to be aware of it, and have it feel like I'm watching someone else slowly implode. I appreciate the " brotherhood" (kind of a sick way of looking at it, but it's what came to mind) of fellow BS'ers. (That was intended to make you all smile for a second)

Anywho.... Oyyyy where to start? Yes we separated. About a month is all. ( remember the struggling daughter?) that's when we were told by the therapist to keep everything predictable and as stress free as possible. So as much as I'd love to get time away from him and evaluate things, I can't. I'm literally smiling as I type this. This makes it sound as if I'm shooting down everyone's advice or making excuses. I can assure anyone reading this, that is soooooo NOT the case. That's why I search so often on the internet to find someone else that has been hit like this, and is facing the same enormous obstacles. It honestly absurd. I'm sure I'd be some therapists worse nightmare. Until I'm able to find one (that's not bat s*** crazy) I'll let you all know how it goes. Lol 

Is the Stockholm Syndrome what Patty Hearst suffered from? (And I'll check out your link as soon as I post this) thank you! I think I have a general idea, and if I'm right, it would make some sense. (Oh, and btw, I'm related to them. No kidding. Just found out 6 mos ago. My Dad was adopted and my sister and I found his younger brother. And the brothers wife had all their bio family's history. *singing "it's a small world" now. It's like great, great, great something or other, so don't be too impressed.

I do want to thank you all for seeing "me" and not the necessarily damaged one. I actually love to laugh, and have been known to be a wicked smart ***. That's what I meant in a way when I said I "missed the old me." I miss the one that wasn't damaged, angry etc. Which are all normal reactions I'm sure, but I'm still trying to work on having to swallow that I was forced to change to begin with. Know what I mean? Who am I kidding? Of course you all do. It's part of the dreaded "club" that we all were "jumped into. (Pun intended)

And I'm rambling now so I'll shut up. But again, thank you guys. You've helped so much more than you realize.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Whoa... Just got through reading about Stockholm Syndrome. While I don't see all of the criteria, I do see quite a bit. He's not abusive. (As in physically) but emotionally very possibly. I do have this constant feeling that he's manipulative. And sometimes I try to dismiss that and second guess myself. Wow..... I'm at a loss for words. I am grateful to finally understand or have a clear(er) picture of what to glean. Wow... Thank you all for the suggested reads and links. I do feel a sense of hope that I hadn't before coming on TAM.

I so appreciate your honesty, advice and wisdom. Hopefully when I get a better understanding of this, I can pay it forward and guide someone else. Oh, and sorry, I'm 46. (I realized I had never answered that) I pray each of you (and me too) find what we need to be better and healthier than when we first came here. You all seem light years ahead of me. (There I go comparing my "recovery" to other's, sorry) but I hope you know what I mean.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is something additional here that is keeping you stuck. PTSD, sure, but PTSD isn't typically circular, but Stockholm is.


Stockholm will bond you to an abuser, oppressor, anyone inappropriate really. You also have the pre-infidelity bonds. Certainly some commonalities.

An apparent-to-all symptom of PTSD is the panic attacks resulting from triggers. Might get several a day, one a month or none at all.

Underlying it all, the stuff we can't see, is the continually going over and over the same events, thoughts or images. "Stuck in a rut.", churning, cycling, round n round, over n over, (take yer pick) and it NEVER ENDS (as OP described) cuz you can't reach a satisfying conclusion. When that trauma is ongoing as a result of a past event or events - esp' if it's got worse since the initial shock - it ticks enough boxes for PTSD 

Like those N/B/PD, psychopath, autism/ADHD threads,,, the 'eureka moment' of a spot-on diagnosis is for university boffins and forum threads. In medical/social care,, we treat the symptoms of the patients/clients as individuals,, cuz no two are the same even if they have the same condition. The 'label' just means 'commonalities'. A useful heads-up but not an essential of much practical use.

Stockholm boxes ticked. PTSD boxes ticked. It could run and run. While there's a 'patient' needs help, rather than leaving them to their own devices while waiting for a professor with a clipboard to finish cross-referencing his boxes, we'll treat them for 'non-specified emotional trauma'.

In forumland, posting links to 'whatevers' is good whether they turn out to be right or wrong. When they're wrong the OPs can rule it out, when they're right or very close it makes them feel less isolated. It's ALL good.

http://drbarrybass.com/services/trauma-of-infidelity/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you for the link FD. That was very helpful as well. I'll refer back to it as I continue my climb out of this.

That's another factor in the whole "BS arsenal", (at least it has proven so with me.) The feelings of isolation. That nobody really understands where you're at or where you're coming from. That's why I come back here so often. Somebody(s) actually, "get it" and can relate. And if it were actually face to face encounters, the people at TAM wouldn't look at you like you had 3 heads.

While I know I'm still a "hot mess", I know I (we) don't have to stay that way. I appreciate all everyone's insight, tips and advice. I (we) WILL get through this. Infidelity is something that happened to me (us), NOT who we are.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

That is a critical perspective. Separating your "who" from the "do" (behavior) will help you begin to gain a healing structure around your situation. Happy for you :smthumbup:


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you Blossom.

One thing I've learned from all of this is that as much as I want answers, sometimes it's a slow process. Instead of beating myself up for it taking so long, I need to give myself more credit for how far I've came. I may not be "there" yet, but I'm a whole lot farther along than I have given myself credit for.

Thank you for your encouragement. Be blessed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Pug, 

My situation is very much like yours, and you know what I believe our problem is? We just havent accepted it. As F.U as it is... and neither one of us like it, nor want it. 

~sammy


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Me either, too? Not sure about my grammar, but I'm with you on that Sammy3. Didn't want or ask for it. It was what happened. I contributed to the disaster it was before the affair(s). That sucks. I hate that I did, but I didn't force her into bed with those men. I didn't spread her legs, make him erect, or shove him in her. Sorry for the graphic depictions. Yeah, it's gross to me, too. I suppose they thought it was beautiful or something? Doesn't matter. What's done is done. It cannot be undone.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

That's definitely a large part of my issue, Sammy. I guess I struggle because it just doesn't make sense to me. And then I spin out of control from all of the questions trying to process.

Like I said earlier, it varies from- "why?", to "if you can be so despicable, what else is there ?", "What else don't I know?", 
"Were you ever sincere?" (He maintains that he didn't have any feelings whatsoever for her and that he liked the feelings of being 'stroked' by her.) it just doesn't add up to me. And in a big way, it's also insulting. Because if she didn't mean anything, then what? He was so willing to haphazardly toss me aside for a few compliments? (I've tried explaining that part of it to him, hoping that it will somehow register... But it never does. Same blank stare, followed by sticking to the "script". 

It's so frustrating having to constantly wait on him to catch up. That annoys the crap out of me. Bleh...
I dunno, I've done literally everything I know to do. From being calm and patient, to yelling, to punching him (yes, I know that's not cool at all, and haven't done it again. And no, he didn't retaliate), to writing letters and none of it clicks. Which then again throws me into a different set of questions. "Is he seriously this stupid?" (I'm not being facetious, but that's literally what I ask myself) 

I just don't get how he's managed to get this far in life being this clueless. If you'd have asked me prior to this what he was like for the first 9-10 years, my answers would have been completely opposite. (As I'm sure all of ours would)

And 2ntnuf, I completely understand. Even though my situations was "just" an EA, (that I know of) those same thoughts have played in my mind as well. Gross? Yes, but completely honest. And I respect honesty. I'm sorry you're dealing with that. Like you, I know I wasn't the "model spouse", and I take full responsibility for my role in that. But, no matter how he tried to paint me in his mind, his actions are 100% all his. That much I do know. And yes, it completely sucks.

But when it's all said and done, every one of us will be ok in the end. Stronger and healthier even though we never asked to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> Thank you Blossom.
> 
> One thing I've learned from all of this is that as much as I want answers, sometimes it's a slow process. Instead of beating myself up for it taking so long, I need to give myself more credit for how far I've came. I may not be "there" yet, but I'm a whole lot farther along than I have given myself credit for.
> 
> ...


Yes, practicing kindness to yourself is smart.

And expecting a lot from yourself, but accepting a little, and rewarding often counts too. This was a step in the right direction... accept it, treat yourself, but stay on the path.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear about your story, though I like some of the strength and perspective you seem to be gaining by talking with folks here. I feel the weight of emotions each time I read one of these threads, whether it's the other person's feelings bleeding through, or maybe I'm just being reminded of my own story. It feels like a ton of bricks.

I hope for both of our sakes it gets better. Until then, thanks for giving me something to do at 3:30AM, and good luck.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Just checking. Hope all is going well.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> That's another factor in the whole "BS arsenal", (at least it has proven so with me.) The feelings of isolation. That nobody really understands where you're at or where you're coming from. That's why I come back here so often. Somebody(s) actually, "get it" and can relate. And if it were actually face to face encounters, the people at TAM wouldn't look at you like you had 3 heads.


If you could 'get over it' in a week, you wouldn't qualify as traumatised.

The sense of isolation is the cruellest, ironic factor cuz there are thousands of you,, each trapped in your unique, personal nightmares.

While it's fair to say that those 1,000s "get it", when you break it down, they 'get' theirs and you 'get' yours.



Lots of your previous responders 'get it' but,,, see previous paragraph. Try to focus on their commonalities, not the differences,,, cuz nobody will 'get' yours 100%.

That you still live with the source of yours doesn't help. A bit like a traumatised combat vet sleeping next to a mortar shell. Worse maybe, cuz the shell may be a trigger, but it's not an inconsiderate irritant,, and nobody expects it to 'get it'.


Not suggesting you ditch his àss (for now) just be aware that his presence doesn't help when you apply his relevant nuances to your emotional whirlpool. It's like chaos theory,, change one piece of your emotional puzzle and it rearranges the whole thing. Just when you thought you had a picture you have to start over,,, and the picture has changed.

You need a trauma counselor, Pug. 

PTSD? Who really gives a tòss? It's trauma and you need help with it.

If the posting and feedback helps, keep doing it,, but don't hope that anyone will 'get it' more than they have already. Also, be aware of his (unwitting) ability to rescramble your thoughts and prevent you from making meaningful progress.

Your solitary head looks the same as anybody elses. A pity really, cuz if it were a broken leg we'd see the mess and know how to fix it. Your unique head needs a head fixer. You'll struggle fixing it yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Glad I could make for a good read, Cabsy. . And thank you for the encouragement. I'm sorry you're here and I pray you too find all you need to heal in every capacity.

2ntnuf- Thanks for the check-in. Not too much to report today, kind I a calm one I suppose. (Thankfully!)

Flying D- Thank you, sincerely. I love your honesty, and I appreciate your communication style. You strike me as a "mean what you say, and say what you mean" kind of guy. Props to you!
You are right in that I completely need therapy, and not just general, but I'm guessing a more specialized trauma type. I'm going to call the one from church and see if she can start IC with me. (Had to put on hold because she's a "pediatrics trauma/social work" counselor, and she started work again once school started.) I like her and all, but  I think I need someone a little more intense and infidelity related for sure. I'm going to ask for her recommendation, and go from there. Also thought your vet analogy was spot on!!

And while I am glad that others "get me" here, I don't mean to imply that they can somehow fix me. I know that's gonna take a lot of hard work, desire, openness and balls for lack of a better word. I just meant that it does help to ease the "you're alone, nobody will ever understand you" type voices that try and pop in every now and again.

(On a side note- When out regular counsellor started back at school, my H attempted to find another one until we could go back. (Props to him for trying) but holy crap was this one another doozie! We only went to her 3 times, and each time We had to do these bizarre exercises.
Week 1- We had to make a list of 60 (why 60, I have no clue) things we liked about each other. Along with a 30 min back-rub (she overheard me saying how masseuses freak me out.)
Week 2-. (This is the part you're gonna love) I literally had to sit on my H's lap, read each of my 60 things, then kiss him after each one. (Um...... Ok? She rattled on about skin to skin contact and endorphins and such... Yada yada
Week 3- We'd graduated to (drum roll) an hour long back-rub now, and another 30 things. 

Yah. That went well..... I told the H that if he didn't dismount from my back, I'd shank him in his sleep. (Yes, I was kidding) but, we both decided she was nuts & didn't want to continue with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> (On a side note- When out regular counsellor started back at school, my H attempted to find another one until we could go back. (Props to him for trying) but holy crap was this one another doozie! We only went to her 3 times, and each time We had to do these bizarre exercises.
> Week 1- We had to make a list of 60 (why 60, I have no clue) things we liked about each other. Along with a 30 min back-rub (she overheard me saying how masseuses freak me out.)
> Week 2-. (This is the part you're gonna love) I literally had to sit on my H's lap, read each of my 60 things, then kiss him after each one. (Um...... Ok? She rattled on about skin to skin contact and endorphins and such... Yada yada
> Week 3- We'd graduated to (drum roll) an hour long back-rub now, and another 30 things.
> ...


hahahaha That gave me a good laugh. Thanks for that. 

Seriously though, it reads like she is trying to make you a little vulnerable to each other and then allow him to touch you and get you more interested in his touch. 

Endorphins, well yeah, that is true. I think it takes a bit more than that, though. 

60? Holy cow! That would be tough. Good for you finding that many. That's not easy. 

Seems a bit weird to me, too. Seems like that counselor is pushing hard to speed things up. Doesn't help dwelling. What might help is doing things that are a little out of the box for you. Push your limits a little. Where did I read this? 

Funny.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

LMAO - I'm all for lists, but 60?! She needs a decimal point therapist. 5 is plenty. Thinking of 5 things each, talking about them, then talking about them again at your next appt is enough for a week. Cuddling good. Squishing not so good. Åsses are either boney or spongy. If they're spongy, the owner likely weighs upward of 130lbs. Either one I wouldn't want on my lap for a list of 60 things. Reading, reacting and kissing for each one must take at least an hour. Nobody needs dead legs and a sore face. She's a nutter. Must've downloaded her quals from the net.

Church woman ain't such a bad idea. Traumas get more complicated with age and intelligence, but the principles for unravelling them are much the same. Also, the school should've checked her quals so she shouldn't be another whack job.
Trauma specialist would be best, but expensive if insurance won't cover it. A psych degree with trauma experience next best. Try church woman if you can get her cheap. Manipulate her with Bible passages about helping the needy, hehe.
Unless you get a good recommendation,, avoid certificates that aren't degrees. They're fine for MC (excluding your nutter) but complex traumas are tough.


At least you've hung on to a sense of humour. It means you could be worse,, and it'll help you with recovery.

I beat the 'get it' thing to death cuz it wasn't clear if you were hoping for somebody who TOTALLY did to post. They DO get it,, but it won't sound like yours. I accept that you get that,, I was just checking. 

Your therapy will be like that. Identifying something in your emotional mess to work with,, then ensuring you stay focused on it and reinforcing it. It might pìss you off sometimes,,, but only when YOU've got it can you move on. Each thing you get, the process gets easier and your sessions and 'homework' will get easier.

Like exercise,, you lose no weight the first few weeks,, then it starts falling off.

You might get more lists, but they'll be for you and your sessions. No gymnastics or squishing of family members.

Enough for a day. Keep on posting. Try to speak to church lady and see what she says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

You're welcome for the giggle. 

I can't even explain how awkward it was. (And for the record, she said the "likes" could be something as trivial as, "I like the way you sneeze.") But we both really tried to dig a little deeper than superficial crap. I understood I think the direction she was attempting to steer us into, (the body releasing endorphins, Dopamine & all the, "Sciency" stuff, which cause your body to feel the "falling In love feelings) but I could also be way off, heck I dunno. 

You re most likely on to something when you mentioned me pushing past my limit. I for sure need help overcoming that one. I'm way too stubborn and can be a handful. (I'm sure that's a shocker) I'm assuming they're coping mechanism (or maybe they're actually excuses, and I'm only kidding myself, who knows?) But, I definitely need to work on them. 
I'm determined to be better no matter what. My H may have had affair, but I'll be damned if his affair will have me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

That counselor needs some exposure to natural horsemanship so she has a visual on what happens when you put too much pressure too fast on emotional beings. Holy Moly. She is clueless!!! 

You are sounding better Pug :smthumbup:

And I very much agree to find a trauma specialist. I found a guy who has psych degrees, a divinity degree and trauma specialist. Has worked out great. If you go online for your area and find a counselor, their credentials and area of work is listed.  I will pray that between you and your Church Lady that you find the best one.  One that especially will understand counselor aversion in your situation.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You know what? You don't have to go jump out of an airplane either. It just has to be something a little out of your comfort zone. Like, taking a dancing lesson. Speaking in front of others. Helping out at a shelter. Taking a class at a community college. Something that pushes your boundaries a little. In the mean time. FD and Blossom both are right, I think. Get another counselor. That's weird.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Pug, 

For me the only thing that has help a bit, was separating. H was a trigger for me. Seeing him everyday, eating dinner across from him everyday, trying to have a normal conversation amongst complete chaos only made everything worst for me. I needed him away from me. He moved out. We stayed 24/7 in contact. 

It helped me heal, not having the toxic fights, the bitterness, the resentment... 

I would not go on any medication for the first 22 months after dday. Huge huge mistake for me. My misery kept me down. I was so far down...I really wasnt sure I was ever going to make it out. I would wake every day, if I even could sleep, and just weep and sob all day long in heavy agony of what happened to my life and how was I ever going to make it thu. Did some really bad and dark things too & I was alone for the most part. 

One day out of the blue I realized I really needed help, I was in such a bad way, really deep depression.

I have never ever been depressed, and always wondered, "What's there to be depressed about? Life is great!" when people would say other wise. 

I finally went on anti depressant. 

They helped a bit, & the next few months, I started to stabilize emotionally. But, it didnt seem to do what I needed completely, after a yr on.

Around Oct, this yr, I asked my dr about it and she gave me a booster to what I am using. OMG !!! Within 2-3 weeks I have improved 10 folds. Even to the point that I dont even feel I remember what it ((the depression, the bad feelings, the ill feeling toward the affair, towards h)) was all really about. 

All the pain and unhappiness seems so useless to me now. I am seeing life in much clearer eyes, with more empathy and more direction for the first time since all of my mess started. 

I am only a year behind you, there is another man on here, who writes, 9 years later, another 7 years later, another women, Granny, still haunted by her h affair 25 years ago, and she is 70. Another man came back 30 years later still asking... I dont want my life to be living in the past with the past, but sadly our ww spouses changed what our present was. 


Another thing I've started to do, instead of always asking myself "why?" I start those questions with "accept". "I accept that my h cheated on me." or "I accept that my life is different now." or "I accept that I make different kinds of choices now."
By saying "you accept" in actual words, in your mind ((what has happened in ones life)) after awhile it balances the negativity in the minds thought pattern. 

There is also a very good book called "Uncoupling." It talk of how throughout the years what it is we do as a couple to separate from each other slowly. 

We both have had a major trauma set against us. We have been living with it with our partners for a few years now. One of the reasons it never goes away, is because we have now built a completely different relationship with our partners that wasn't the relationship that was before. We react to what happened and built from that relationship forward... crazy as it seems, it all makes sense to me... 

Anyway, hang in there... yeap I do know what you mean as far as others just really dont understand what infidelity is all about, I know I never understood it until I went through it, and I surely wish I never knew one thing about it to this very day... 

~sammy


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

First I want to apologize for laughing while reading your therapist post. It had reminded me of when I went to see a therapist about depression. I wasn't fifteen minutes in when he suddenly threw both his hands over his head, growled, and said he was a dinosaur. I remember looking at the window to see if I could jump. It was a fixed window. He then followed with, sometimes the mother monkey throws the baby monkey off her back as she doesn't want to carry the baby anymore. I sat in stunned silence just staring at him. I reached for my waist and found nothing there. My WW, who was there at the recommendation of our MC, panicked and grabbed my arm. At that point she looked down and let go of my arm as I hadn't brought the sidearm. I excused myself and went back in twenty minutes. Just in time to hear him ask my WW if I wanted to schedule another appointment. I said I would get back to him as we had to leave. Walking out I looked at my WW and said I'll take my chances with our MC. 

When I told our MC she couldn't stop laughing. There are good and bad just like with anything but bad is usually really bad. Best of luck to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Drifting- O....M.....G!! (For the record, you don't owe me an apology at all. It really was pretty funny) Actially, I owe you one, because I was laughing at the "prize" you found. Wow! Just wow!

Well, I spoke with my "church lady" (sorry, but I keep thinking of he SNL sketch.. "Well, isn't that special?" whenever y'all call her that. ) 
Anyways, I gave her the condensed version, updates and all. She said she'd like to start early Jan. (after Christmas break) and in the meantime, she'd try to find a trauma counselor that she felt would best fit. Yay! (My friend that's still in school is also talking to her professor about someone more infidelity based, so, win win! I'm really looking forward to starting. I mean I know it's likely going to suck. But at the same time, I know that part won't last forever.

My WH had suggested meds (for me) a whe back. I dismissed his suggestion . But the more I think about it, it may not be a bad idea. I dunno, I'll learn what in a about it and then make a decision. I'll admit it would make sense. I just don't like to have to be dependent on something. (Yowza, that makes no sense especially since I'm a smoker) hmmm

Anywho, I love the suggestion of doing something like helping the homeless and/or vunteering. (I've already jumped out of an airplane) so it can't be too awful scary. I think it's help put things in perspective. Kind of step outside of myself. It'd be good for all involved. 

Oh, and my WH did say that after the freaky lap thing... His legs WERE numb. (I told him that if is have know. That I'd be on his lap so long on the first day, I'd have made him wish he'd have worn a cup). Lol. Yes, I'm kidding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

The "acceptance" thing is so spot on you don't even realize it at this point but that is a POWERFUL tool in your belt. Good for you on finding counselors... hoping it works out. 

My H and I deconstructed our relationship to the degree of taking it down to the bare dirt and we started with separation. Think Extreme Home Makeover Marriage Edition. We knocked that sucker to the ground and chose to totally rebuild it. AND we *accepted* going into it that the reconstruction was going to be messy, covered it in grace. We *accepted* that the past relationship was totally broken down and chose to leave it there. And though we are addressing this personal integrity issue for me right now, it is not causing us to rehash the affair. Its causing us to "do what needs to be done" so that the peace left behind for us is deep and will only strengthen where we are right now. So we are *accepting* it as the right thing for right now.

Ten months ago he was not in our house. So the changes have been fairly rapid after I changed tactics. I am grateful and only hope the BEST for both of you.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

You're right to be wary of meds, Pug.

They're necessary for people with disorders and chemical imbalances,,, but it's a lazy (or incompetent) care system that doles them out for treatable conditions like yours.

By all means, if you have stress and anxiety while waiting for therapy appointments, chomp down a weak 'valium' to get to sleep, or get you through stressful afternoons over Christmas, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with you and meds will not help you recover. They'll make you feel better, but they won't get you better.

You'll need all your faculties for therapy. A good therapist doesn't recite 'secret spells' and fix you,,, they steer you onto a path whereby you can fix yourself.

If you want to enjoy the festive period and sleep well,, ask your GP for 20 or so 'as needed', weak benzos to get you through. Nothing indicates that you need to be on a course of anything.

Start therapy with a clear head. Once you have a plan in place you'll soon start feeling better and better.

Only later, if you're diagnosed with something more serious might you need meds. NOTHING you've written indicates that you have anything other than a reversible trauma.

It's great that you've sorted out something for New Year. If it goes well, you'll be a whole new you by Easter or thereabouts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree that meds aren't the answer, as they themselves have their own issues. But I honestly fought 22 months and would not entertain the idea, and my depression just got worst and worst. Close people were frighten for me and what was happening to me. Had been to MC, IC many times, with many different. Nothing would get me out of the mess I was in. I was walking dead...

My life turned around these past few months with the help of anti depressants, and I know it was the only help for me. I will be very eager to get off of them as soon as I can, because of all that I agree with what was posted above. 

But I also know, that my son might not have a mother this very day, had I not agreed and said yes to them too. 

~sammy


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Blossom- Phew..... That's tough on me. The whole "acceptance" thing. I don't know why, but it automatically puffs me up big time. I'm sitting here trying to dissect it and make it snap in my own head. But instead it's just leading me to spiral in my head.-
By accepting his behavior, what does that even mean?

Does it mean that it's ok in the future for him to just completely morph into a stranger again?
Does it mean that I'm even subliminally condoning his EA?
Does it mean that I'll never know what it's like to ever feel secure in a relationship (whether with him or anyone else)?
Does it mean that he's somehow off the hook?
Does it mean that he'll think he "got away with it and that it'll be even more easy next time?

Ugh..... I know those are all questions I should be tossing his way, (and a lot of them I have). I'm just so confused and frustrated by it all. And I desperately want to understand. I hate this... Damn.
(And I'm in no way implying that you played any part in my latest "spinning session". No, I know it's all me. I'm in awe of your strength, as well as everyone's who have tried to encourage and steer me)

Dutch, thank you for perfectly voicing my concerns about the meds. I know they are extremely beneficial for some. (Me possibly being one of them) but yes, I want to go into therapy clear headed and raw. I want to know that I know that I'm digging deep enough to get to the root. Like I said, it's going to suck and hurt like hell, but it's so neccessary. I know you're in a way subtly trying to prepare me for that, and I thank you.


Sammy- I'm so happy for you that the meds helped you in the way they did/are. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision, but I commend and applaud you for choosing the right path that's best for you. I'm very glad that they eased things and let you be more "you". It takes a strong person to admit when they need help, and I pray your son realizes just how strong his Momma really is. Once therapy starts, I'll bring the suggestion up to them, weigh their suggestions with how I'm feeling and go from there. And I do wish I could separate.. But, my daughter likely wouldn't handle that well at all. I'm sure you understand that she comes before me and my FWH (I'm still trying to get used to all the abbreviations, so if I mess up, please forgive me)
So for the time being, I'm stuck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> Blossom- Phew..... That's tough on me. The whole "acceptance" thing. I don't know why, but it automatically puffs me up big time. I'm sitting here trying to dissect it and make it snap in my own head. But instead it's just leading me to spiral in my head.-
> By accepting his behavior, what does that even mean?
> 
> Does it mean that it's ok in the future for him to just completely morph into a stranger again?
> ...


Whew, Lord NO child. 

No no no... Never advocating to accept the unacceptable. 


We accepted our old relationship as dead and agreed to build a new one after assessing that we both possessed capacity and willingness to do so. But never at the expense of tolerating poor behavior. I let him know that if he ever laid his hands on me again the cops would be called and I would press charges and if he ever cheats again divorce is imminent. So, it is very clear here that infidelity and domestic violence is zero tolerance.

I am so sorry you are spinning! Can you work on something tedious to help shift that energy?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I struggled and still struggle with acceptance. For me, it means just knowing that there is nothing I can do to change the past. It happened. It's terrible. It is over. I have the future ahead of me and the present at my feet. Staying in the present as much as possible is the best thing for me at this moment. I can control what I do, and only what I do, in this moment. I can choose to find what makes me happy, in this moment. I can choose what is best for me, in this moment. So far, that's how I understand it.


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Sorry guys, I certainly don't want to bring everyone down. This is exactly what I mean by, "This never really stops." The ups and and crashes that follow are almost debilitating. It certainly feels like being trapped on the most death defying roller coaster ever. And the kicker? You didn't ask to get on it in the first place, you're forced to be. Then, to top it all off, your WS is the one handling and manipulating all of the controls. Just seems like it's taking every ounce of strength just to hold on. 

I want to be well. I want to feel safe and know it's all gonna be ok. But none of us knows that ultimately. I mean I try to purpose myself to make that ultimate goal, but there's no guarantees. 

Sorry, being poopy again, I'll shut up & try to sleep it off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

We never really know what is going to happen each day. We can only deal with what comes. Trust is a hard thing to earn and easy to lose. It will take time and consistency for you to learn to trust your WS again. All he can do is give you those and the truth when you feel like this. You must trust that if he is not trustworthy, you will know what to do and be able to survive and find happiness. I think that's a part of doing things on your own that push your boundaries. It strengthens your confidence in yourself. You do right to post when you feel betrayed and frightened. Know that I go through it every day, even now, more than three years later. My counselor doesn't seem to understand why. I know why. I've been through it. I guess he would have to believe me to understand? Know that you are not alone.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

There is a secret that all good horsemen know... you never know what mood that horse is going to be in when he steps into the arena, so the secret to great horsemanship is to manage the horse that shows up that day, hour, minute, second, not the horse from yesterday, not the horse that he isn't yet. And it can shift moment to moment.

Choose to manage the emotion that shows up constructively and progessively with an eye on healing. Accept the rollercoaster you are on. It where you are regardless how you got there. Much like my buddy Lauren who ended up with a broken back, paralyzed from the waist down, chose to accept it and within four years was riding with the United States paraolympic team in Bejing and won. She accepted her status and put the work in. You will gain emotional agility like a pro. I'm cheering you on!!


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

This thread shows exactly why TAM can be such a support and help: people who have been through the same trauma who share what worked for them in a non-judgemental way. Thanks so much for reminding me that acceptance is necessary and what it is not.

I needed that and also the perspective that the passing of tiime gives. Our relationship moving forward will be many things and there are many things it simply will never be because of infidelity. And thats OK and I can accept that.

Thanks to all who posted for helping me see that a little clearer..


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

I hate medications and rarely take them. However my depression became severe when I turned suicidal. I was placed on an anti-depressants. I hate having to take a pill so I can smile, so I can function with society, when I was just fine. Infidelity causes change, rebuilding, and strength you never knew you had, to mention a few. So I choke this pill and my pride down my throat each morning. It's not easy, but in my case necessary. You may have to make that decision yourself, and that is infidelity. Decisions BS should not have to make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you all for the prayers and re-steering.

Growing up. I remember my Dad and his Army buddies recanting their experiences from combat, and the lasting effects of all they've been through. (If there's any reading this that served as my Dad did in Viet Nam, "Thank you for your service, and welcome home") But I remember the hushed conversations, the tears, the inner turmoil and the flashbacks. And while I was way too young to fully comprehend it at the time, I completely understand to a degree their struggles and pain now. I think most all here can. (I'm not wanting to minimize a soldier's pain at all. I will never fully grasp that because I've never faced those giants)

As I re-read this thread, I realized I missed so many questions and I apologize for that. I do thank every one of you for reaching out. It means much more than you realize.

Left to my own devices, I'd be rocking in a corner somewhere. But, today's a new day full of possibilities and hopefully healing. (Not wanting to sound all "rainbows and unicorns") but I do realize that I have to push past or through all of this. And in a sense, it's gonna get worse before it gets better. Kind of like labor I suppose. (Hmmm, technically that'd make you all my labor coaches. And sorry for the visual) 

Drifting- your explanation really touched me, thank you. I'm very glad they're helping, and I completely understand the depths you were at. Very much so...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pugnacious;11175282
Drifting- your explanation really touched me said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


Pugnacious

I have never admitted this, but in my darkest hour I sat at my kitchen table with a gallon of antifreeze. I couldn't see living life the way it was going, death was my only choice at that time. I don't remember why but for some reason I didn't drink that gallon. Many times I regret that I didnt drink that gallon. I called my primary physician the following day and was prescribed an anti-depressant. I will tell you to please get help if you need it. Stay strong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Powerful vulnerability drifting on...


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Drifting- I'm humbled by your honesty and bravery. I'm grateful that your strength won. Thank you for sharing that. I know you didn't have to, but please know.... It spoke volumes to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> Powerful vulnerability drifting on...


Blossom Leigh

Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> Drifting- I'm humbled by your honesty and bravery. I'm grateful that your strength won. Thank you for sharing that. I know you didn't have to, but please know.... It spoke volumes to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pugnacious

Thank you, the most difficult moment of my life was asking for help. Especially in this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

mi̱n afí̱nete ta kathármata tha piásoume

This is easier said than done. Google Translate is your friend.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

Usually, depressions caused by traumatic events in adults are short term and/or treatable.

It tends to be the rule for those not showing signs of depression in their youth,, but it's far from universal.

Female PPD can mask a change to a permanant depression. Others aren't so easily explained when there's no obvious chemical or hormonal change.

Professional bickerings continue to try and explain what are often genuine mysteries.

Obviously, it's preferable that anyone take meds rather than their lives. Thereafter, one hopes any therapy continues until it's apparent that no progress can be made.

Good therapists don't give up hope of progress lightly,, but can be as guilty as anyone else of wishful thinking.

The upside of med-life is apparent. The downside of muting despair is that positive emotions like joy get muted too. You don't condemn somebody to that until you've exhausted all avenues.

Anyone feeling suicidal should get meds and ASAP therapy. If therapists and GPs determine that you need to be on meds, so be it,, though I'd hope they keep you under review.

If you can manage without them,, or 'as needed',, that's the way to go.

Your therapy may not be as painful as you expect, Pug. In movies, they love the expunging of angst. In the real-world it frequently goes quite differently. Simplistically, identify cause and effect and deal with the effect. Create current contentment and 'the shìt' seems to matter a whole lot less. As I said in another thread,, NOTHING can make that go away,, but by building you up present day you'll find you can store the bad stuff away someplace. It doesn't go,, it gets stashed aside to be looked at when needed,, or not at all.

The specifics will be for your therapist. You spilling the beans about what he or she has to work with will likely be the worst bit. Thereafter it should get better as you're given 'plans' to work with. A weekly weep-fest is,,, unlikely.

Subtle? Moi? The slander! lol. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Thank you Flying, (and I appreciate the subtlety as well). 

I understand what you're saying about therapy not being as bad as I'm anticipating. But there's way more going on than just his EA. (wow, that's kinda creepy to actually type out "just his EA")
I've lightly touched on my Dad's passing. (Crazy, foreign, money hungry new gf latched on to well off retired Army, doing contract work in Saudi, Then married her & moved back to the States) And decided she'd had enough, and subsequently he was gone way too soon.) followed by not a single family member went to his funeral or acknowledged his passing at all, except for my Mom and sister. 
That hurt like hell.

I also was a volunteer firefighter, (quit when my daughter's issues started) but with that came seeing things that nobody should ever have to see- Wrecks, shootings, obviously fires, etc. That sticks with me and still bugs me to this day. So, I'm assuming that they'll want to bring all of that into the equation. That's the gist of the full picture. 

I didn't want to flop all of that on the table in my initial post for fear that-
A) I'd sound like a freak 
B) nobody would believe me or 
C) I'm beyond effed up and completely over-stimulating

My friend (the one going to school) was writing notes on all of this crap while we talked. She said, "Let me get this straight, your Dad died, your H not only had an EA, but supported his girlfriend while she was grieving, your daughter is having psychiatric issues, your family bailed, and you're juggling this all at the same time, & you wonder why you're having coping issues?" She swears it PTSD, and possibly more crap that is in the way and keeping me stuck in place. Who knows? I guess I will fairly soon.

Gawd I hope that all came out right, and I don't want pity or sympathy, I loathe that. And yes, I'm painfully aware of how bizarre this is. But that's my jacked up world in a nutshell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

I wanted to clear up that the only reason I brought my Dad & firefighting stuff up was because when my friend listed the criteria for a PTSD "official" diagnosis, one of the things was- basically to have witnessed horrific events or death. So..... Yah, definitely have that one. 

And your hormonal comment rings very true also. (Yay menopause!)
When you mentioned "storing it away", that made me think of some of the books I've read. They've had chapters like "when everything is calm, and you're talking with your WH, start bringing up points of thought one at a time." I recall that my reaction was, "What?! How the *€%# do you do that? My mind has about 1,000 tabs open at the same time. I don't understand that at all. No way can I just gingerly pick one at a time. I'm sure the counselor will help with all that, and give me tips and pointers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You can get through all that pug. It will take some counseling. It's not crazy or anything. It's quite a bit to handle.


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

See, Pug? You caught yourself giving yourself away. "Just an EA", huh? And,, you don't want to make a fuss by bugging other people with your 'freakiness'.

You're a 'coper'. Pushing stuff aside and minimising it in order to press on with the daily practicalities. It's worked for you too,,, until recently. Now, you've been snuck up on and aren't sure how it happened.

I may have your timeline wrong,, but the process is the same.

It may've started with your firefighting. Usually it's more than grisly images - for many, it's the un-grisly ones. Hard to process death with no visible injuries. Whatever bothered you about it, you entrusted it to your usual coping mechanism while you carried on living. It would've worked too, if all the rest hadn't come along before you were done processing it.

Too much, too close together,, you've ended up with an emotional bottleneck that's overwhelmed your coping skills. Not your fault. It can and does happen to anybody. 

Your thoughts ('tabs') are like a bunch of unruly schoolkids, all trying to get out of the assembly hall at once.

Your therapist will line them up and identify the instigators - the bad influences. You deal with them and all the other kids will filter through in a timely fashion, just like they used to.

So, it helps your therapist to see all your 'tabs', but only to identify the bad influences. Once you start dealing with them,, the lesser ones squeeze by and require no special attention.

While you may feel like you've gone nuts and don't want to burden those around you,, you're pretty much a poster girl for trauma, and a good therapist will untangle your thoughts and organise them, creating flow through the bottleneck. Thereafter, you'll manage like you did before,, with a better insight into how you got snuck up on.

So long as your therapist ain't a dud,, it'll be a valuable learning experience for you. Not a breeze,, but not a nightmare either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Your brain is seeking resolution, emotional closure.

Allow it to get it.

You are not a burden Sweetie

You have the need to have resolution

And it is ok to work on one at a time

And if that is a struggle, so be it.. you will get there

And I LOVE FD's description of an effective process to get there. 

I'm cheering you on!!:smthumbup:


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

First, thank you for your service to your community as a first responder. A profession with high rewards and off the chart lows. You witness firsthand the atrocities people place on people. Senseless violence, the drunk driver who hit a family, people burned to death, and on and on. Trying to forget sights, sounds, and smells. To this day I can still smell the burnt flesh of a human being when I hear of a fire. That was seventeen years ago, but even right now typing this I smell it. You can't forget what you see, you can only try to cope. Which is usually holding your loved ones tighter.

I was diagnosed with PTSD. I am hoping, and praying, that this medication is temporary. After the incident with the therapist (not our MC) I know I'm not the craziest person. With the help of our MC I have found that my d-day was very traumatic. The day before d-day I was sent on a call. Nine year old female with difficulty breathing. Empty bleach bottle found alongside the girl. While responding, update came in with more information, unresponsive. The girl was taken to the hospital. A scan of her head showed only blood. On d-day I was called by a friend, the nine year old girl was playing with a friend and fell from a storage box landing on her head. She had a massive brain bleed. She didn't survive the night.

Pugnacious, from your posts I know you put your all into serving, put your all into you now. As someone that has been there, take this time for you, be a little selfish and ask for help. I know you are going to get the help, I want you to know there is no shame, you are not weak, for the shameful and the weak don't get the help. God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Omgosh, I'm a bawling mess. How is it that a handful of complete strangers can give you a hand up just when you need it? Thank you guys.. Truly. Since all of this started, it's felt like I'm in a giant swimming pool, with all this crap tied to me weighing me down, and I'm flailing trying to keep my head above water, only to have those close to me screaming, "Swim dammit. Your drowning!" (Not offering a hand, just expecting more out of me.). (I hope that's not too dramaticc, if you feel the need to wretch, I totally understand)

Thank you 2ntnuf, I appreciate the encouragement, and wish the same for you.

Flying, please don't take this wrong, but I'd kiss you right on the mouth. (Dear God, I'm not throwing feelers out for an on- line affair, I'm sure y'all know I'm joking. Lol)
I LOVE the bottleneck analogy. That's sooooo it!!! And you're also right that it's not always the "in your face" type calls that bother the most. Often times it's the ones involving children. (Those are the ones that kill me.). And drunk driver mva's are the bane of my existence. Innocent people being mamed or killed way too soon bcause of someone else's stupidity. (Hmmm, much in the same as the aftermath of affairs.)

Blossom, thank you for the cheers of encouragement. You are incredibly sweet, and have blessed me yet again.

Drifting, while I appreciate your kind words, there's no need to thank. I'm no hero in any way. I just do what I can because it's the right thing to do. I'm sure you're the same. I'm so sorry that you had to witness that call. When it comes to kids, I can't "turn it off". It's too hard. I completely understand. And for the record, thank YOU for serving as well. I so know how it is to get on scene, size up, assess, then you basically go on auto-pilot. Some calls are no big deal, and some stay with you forever. I've found myself several times calling the hospital or ambulance barn trying to check up on a call. And the smell.... Ugh, it absolutely never goes away. You can't explain it, but it's like nothing I'd ever encountered previously to training. 

Thank you guys. I can't say that enough. I hope and pray that each of you also finds the closure or "re-birthing" that you need. (Lord, I must be all kinds of Pholosophical today, bare with me) And if you all lived closer, I'd definitely buy everyone a round or two. (But if you tried to drink & drive, I'd have to kick your @ss). 

Therapy is on it's way, possibly meds, but most of all the "new & improved" version of me. I'm so thankful He led me here. It's been a life saver. I'm indebted to all of you, and so appreciative. Thank you!!
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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

She's gonna do it!!!! YAY!!!:smthumbup::bounce::woohoo::yay::toast:

I really hear hope and strength here... so happy for you and proud... one day at a time!


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

You are adorable Blossom. And for the record, I'd kiss you right on the mouth too. (Not in a creeper, bull lesbian sort of way, but more of a sisterly type way.) no offense to any bull lesbians that may read this. (I've got a dry sense of humor, sorry) but I'd also give you some pom-poms along with your choice of beverage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

For the record, I don't mean to offend. I know my sense of humor is off-putting at at times. Sorry. It's like that one meme that says "I don't mean to interrupt, I just get so excited and blurt stuff out or I'll explode." Yah, that's me to a "t". I'm harmless, but I hope that my heart is coming off like it's in the right place. That's my intention anyways. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

THANKS!!! I just know it feels good after five years of inner turmoil... been there done that with my mother's issues before 2009. I like it when people break free of that. Makes me a happy girl!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You didn't write anything that bothered me. You are welcome, by the way. I'm just so glad you are doing okay and choosing to move forward. I think you are going to really like who you are becoming.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

Quote: Drifting, while I appreciate your kind words, there's no need to thank. I'm no hero in any way. I just do what I can because it's the right thing to do. I'm sure you're the same. I'm so sorry that you had to witness that call. When it comes to kids, I can't "turn it off". It's too hard. I completely understand. And for the record, thank YOU for serving as well. I so know how it is to get on scene, size up, assess, then you basically go on auto-pilot. Some calls are no big deal, and some stay with you forever. I've found myself several times calling the hospital or ambulance barn trying to check up on a call. And the smell.... Ugh, it absolutely never goes away. You can't explain it, but it's like nothing I'd ever encountered previously to training. 

On some days I wonder why I chose my profession. On other days it feels so right to help a person in need. The rewards are incredible as someone simply says thank you. I too, am not a hero, I am so very simple and just want to provide for my family. I didn't take this job seeking awards or medals, I enjoy helping others. The downside is seeing children injured or killed. I had told my mother last year that the day I am not affected by a child injured or killed I will walk off the job. 

Pugnacious sometimes we need support, other times a swift kick in the a$$. You need support and many posters are offering that. Only you can take that step to get it. I am overjoyed you are taking that step. It is very difficult to do, I know it was for me. In my case my sister, wife, and MC all conspired behind my back three days before I planned on killing myself. I was supposed to go to the doctor the following week. I called that next day and was fortunate to get a cancellation. I spoke to my doctor for an hour and a half. It took me that long to convince her I was safe. I feel only God can decide when I kick the bucket, take a dirt nap, cash in my chips, or take my last breath. 

I use humor to cope with what I deal with. Many people give me strange looks and many laugh. I hope one day I make people laugh again, but sometimes I just can't see getting back to that point. Each day I push forward hoping its the day but many times its not. What you and I have done for a living can really mess a person up. Add in infidelity and the one person you would do anything for tears your heart from your chest and stomps on it. I know I'm far from perfect but nobody including myself should have to deal with infidelity. Sorry for rambling. Stay strong and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

pugnacious said:


> Flying, please don't take this wrong, but I'd kiss you right on the mouth. (Dear God, I'm not throwing feelers out for an on- line affair, I'm sure y'all know I'm joking. Lol)


Well dayum! Close, but no cigar. T'was ever thus. lol

You're sounding much better already, Pug,,, and before treatment has even begun. That's worth a thousand online EA nawtee selfies.

You focus on getting better,,, I'll manage the painful rejection,,, somehow. Hehe. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

2ntnuf- Thank you. I'm sure trying to learn how to like the new me. I catch glimpses of her every now and again. She's very much worth getting to know. (I'm betting she's not much of a cook though. 

Drifting- thank you for sharing all of that. I'm very glad that your intervention succeeded. And I'm proud of you for seeking help. It's an insane amount to carry around as I'm learning. Especially while you're witnessing all you have. I do understand. Since two here made that confession, I think it's only fair to admit that I've spent many nights with my 9mm in my mouth, finger shaking on the trigger guard. Thankfully, the thought of my 2 girls without their mom snapped me back.

I relate with your work ethic and respect you for it. We are quite similar I suspect. It's such a hard profession. (I was only a volunteer) But, once the tones go off, you drop everything and run right in the middle of what others are fleeing from. And when you lose one, you replay it all I'm your mind.. The "coulda, shoulda, woulda game" or at least that's what I found myself doing. 
(I'm sure the therapist will run with that for a few). "Was response too long?" (we are fairly rural) "What did I miss on assessment?" "Should I have requested more mutual aid? Another tanker? " The list goes on and on.

Oh, and for the record, you weren't rambling, you were helping. Massive difference. 

And if you couldn't tell, I too use humor to cope. [insert gasp here] and I don't doubt a bit that you'll find it safe again to reveal that side of you once more. 

May God bless you also. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> Well dayum! Close, but no cigar. T'was ever thus. lol
> 
> You're sounding much better already, Pug,,, and before treatment has even begun. That's worth a thousand online EA nawtee selfies.
> 
> ...


Just so you know.... I literally just sprayed Mntn Dew all over my phone's screen from laughing!!
Thanks for the giggle!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> 2ntnuf- Thank you. I'm sure trying to learn how to like the new me. I catch glimpses of her every now and again. She's very much worth getting to know. (I'm betting she's not much of a cook though.
> 
> Drifting- thank you for sharing all of that. I'm very glad that your intervention succeeded. And I'm proud of you for seeking help. It's an insane amount to carry around as I'm learning. Especially while you're witnessing all you have. I do understand. Since two here made that confession, I think it's only fair to admit that I've spent many nights with my 9mm in my mouth, finger shaking on the trigger guard. Thankfully, the thought of my 2 girls without their mom snapped me back.
> 
> ...



Pugnacious,

I am humbled by your kind words, and I know we are very similar in our views. Trading war stories we would probably cry from the laughter, cry from the senselessness of the acts, and cry from the reality with which we deal with. I noticed your depression in your posts and contemplated sending you a pm. I can only say I'm sorry I didn't pm you as I had a hunch it was worse. Please lock the firearms away until you are in a better place. Give the key to a trusted friend if you need. I knew I was spiraling out of control but didn't care. I called nobody while I sat at the table. I don't know why I didn't do it, nothing has come to mind. But I saw in myself that if I didn't do something that next day I wouldn't survive the next night. 

I also noticed the time on your post, you don't need to answer this but I'm assuming insomnia could be a contributing factor. I may be wrong, actually hope I am, but I suffer from insomnia also. Lately I get about two to three hours a night of sleep. I should get more. On the bright side I notice that with the less sleep I get my sarcasm gets better! God bless you pugnacious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Been a weird couple of days.... My ex, (my girls' dad) was dumped by his latest, and had to keep an eye on my daughter. (She is really tight with the gf's children)


Drifting, please don't second guess yourself on pm'ing. You had no way of knowing. And I'm thankfully and prayerfully past that place. 
And yes, I too have insomnia. Like you, 2-3 hours is about max. And I giggled at the "sarcasm improvement t". That's so true!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> Been a weird couple of days.... My ex, (my girls' dad) was dumped by his latest, and had to keep an eye on my daughter. (She is really tight with the gf's children)
> 
> 
> Drifting, please don't second guess yourself on pm'ing. You had no way of knowing. And I'm thankfully and prayerfully past that place.
> ...


Pugnacious

Good to see you are ok, we'll as ok as you can be given the circumstances. Next time no second guessing, I'll just pm. I too, am thankful you are past that place. That period for me was literally my darkest moment. In fact my MC had me write how I felt during that time and why. I have given this considerable thought, I too wondered why I chose or saw suicide as my only course of action. MC believes its the violence and death of kids I see, that I haven't learned how to cope with their passing. That I just push it down deeper and never mourn or get closure. I looked at my MC and shared other atrocities to children I have seen firsthand. At the end I could hardly speak and both MC and I were both crying. 

When the affair hit and dealing with the nine year old girl I could feel life slipping out of my hands. I couldn't push both emotions down, and slowly just began to shut down. It came to the point that I welcomed death, my pain would end, my humiliation would end. I didn't feel like I could ever be happy again, make people laugh again, even want to be around people. I thought of many ways to end it all, step in front of a train as my cousin did, a bullet, drinking antifreeze, cutting my jugular, and jumping from a bridge into the ice breakers. I have no idea why I didn't drink that antifreeze. MC doesn't know why either, I contacted her and she check in with me each day until we met. She did.

That was my loneliest time, my darkest time, and for reasons otherwise unknown to me I'm still here. Finding TAM has been very helpful to me, writing on your thread has helped me. I'm slowly returning and working on improving myself. Come here and type on threads. Sounds so simple, but the last few months it has been very cathartic. Yesterday my boys went to see Santa, they had a ball, and they chatted all night with me about their day. I felt a little peace last night. 

Stay strong and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pugnacious (Jul 11, 2012)

Your breakdown of suppressing all life's crap really hit home. I think that's what got me in trouble. (I can't remember who for sure said it, but they said I'd learned how to do that as a coping mechanism.) and they're correct.

I'm so glad you're out of that horrible tunnel. I so understand the emotions you've explained. Especially when it comes to the atrocities against and pertaining to children. I'll never understand how to process that. I doubt it's even possible to. 

Thank you Drift for your candor and honesty. I wish you nothing but God's best, and if you ever need to talk, I'm here.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

pugnacious said:


> Your breakdown of suppressing all life's crap really hit home. I think that's what got me in trouble. (I can't remember who for sure said it, but they said I'd learned how to do that as a coping mechanism.) and they're correct.
> 
> I'm so glad you're out of that horrible tunnel. I so understand the emotions you've explained. Especially when it comes to the atrocities against and pertaining to children. I'll never understand how to process that. I doubt it's even possible to.
> 
> Thank you Drift for your candor and honesty. I wish you nothing but God's best, and if you ever need to talk, I'm here.


Pugnacious

I have two coping skills, suppressing and humor. When I couldn't suppress anything more the depression started. The depression killed my humor, which left me with zero coping skills. My MC will tell you I'm very good at hiding things. I say I'm not but that's a different argument. MC said the box I suppressed everything into became full I was a ticking bomb. I agree with MC but that took me awhile. I didn't want to believe she was right as that would make me weak. Well, I am, in fact very much so when it's involving children. I can live with that now whereas before I could never admit to being weak. 

The tunnel you speak if was the darkest time of my life. I felt trapped in a dark room with no exit and not a glimmer of light. Everything in life had no value anymore, and when in depression no hope or faith. So to be free of that tunnel is amazing. I'm not back all the way yet but I try, each and every day I try. I have hope again which I didn't have before, I have renewed my faith with God, since I turned my back on Him. Each day I find the strength and courage to go through another day

I thank you for your kind offer to talk if I need to. Know that I am here to talk if need to also. Stay strong and God bless.
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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Pugnacious

Hope all is going well for you. Stay strong and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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