# I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Conrad said my H would "passively aggressively withhold the behaviors" I said I appreciated from him:
namely, having a conversation about something that's important to me--calmly, positively, "openly."

Yes, he did: about the article I wrote. (I posted in "general.") 
He read it (I had asked him to), and then was very closed off to conversation about it, very negative, almost judgmental.
So he delivered on Conrad's prediction, and then some: aggressive, not just passive aggressive.

How do I pass these "fitness tests"?
I'm so sick of this pattern, SO SICK of it.

I'm trying to 180, trying to cool down my temp, trying to "(wo)man up."
i've never assumed the role of needy, desperate, pathetic partner before this.
I've never felt so shut out and pushed out, unappreciated, before my own husband.

I'm trying not to crumble. HELP!!!
Any suggestions from all the "nice guy/man up" husbands, suggestions that can apply to a wife who is trying SO hard?
(I read "why men marry b****es," but I already married him, it didn't really apply.)
This pit in my gut is becoming unbearable.
Is there a comparable "no more mr. Nice Guy" playbook for me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

You are caught up in the 'runner and pursuer' model.

You are the pursuer. You want something from him that you aren't getting ... so you simply keep trying to get it. You can't let it go. You can't leave him alone. And as a result, all you achieve is continuing to push him away.

What you need to be prepared to accept is that this guy is NEVER going to either be capable of, or sufficiently invested in meeting your needs.

Given what I know of your circumstances, I simply don't think he's going to change. 

Point I got to in my relationship was recognizing "This is it. This is as good as gets. This is all she's ever going to be capable of."

And it was up to me to decide whether or not who she was, how she acted, and what she had to offer was enough for me to feel valued and fulfilled.

I don't think you have pulled away nearly enough, to be able to determine if his behavior is reactionary to you ... or if his behavior is simply who he is.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Thanks, deejo.
Hard as it is to think he just may not care more than he currently does, and never will.
But I guess the gamble is taking the risk to find out what he does *on his own*, without my pushing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Gotta add/reiterate...
Playbook...solutions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

You have a need for approval. That is normal and real and you should embrace that and not try to beat yourself into not needing it. You have a need for conversation. Again, you should be self aware as to what your needs are from your H. You should embrace them and over time drive your husband into meeting them. But, are you aware of what his needs are? The reason he would not care more than he does is that he is not "getting" his needs met (by you). That is what makes someone care.... Recommended play book is the 5 love languages, His needs / Her needs, or The Proper care and feeding of Husbands. And, from this you should come up with a list of his main needs as you see them.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Hicks said:


> You have a need for approval. That is normal and real and you should embrace that and not try to beat yourself into not needing it. You have a need for conversation. Again, you should be self aware as to what your needs are from your H. You should embrace them and over time drive your husband into meeting them. But, are you aware of what his needs are? The reason he would not care more than he does is that he is not "getting" his needs met (by you). That is what makes someone care.... Recommended play book is the 5 love languages, His needs / Her needs, or The Proper care and feeding of Husbands. And, from this you should come up with a list of his main needs as you see them.


I'd love if he'd tell me what his needs are, aside from:
"don't push me."
"love me."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'd love if he'd tell me what his needs are, aside from:
> "don't push me."
> "love me."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also: 
"be happy with me and need nothing emotionally from me."

this is seriously what he seems to need from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Creda,
I am sorry for asking what is likely a duplicate question - but here goes: How did he treat you/how did he behave in general BEFORE you got married? 

Was he nicer/kinder more loving? Was he more patient? Was he less angry/tense combative with you? 

WHEN did his behavior towards you start to change in a noticeable way?

Sometimes if you want to know the "truth" you have to ask the question in the right way. If it were me this is what I would ask him. 
1. How do you think I have changed/am different compared to how I was before we married?
2. How do you think YOU have changed/am different compared to how YOU were before we married?
3. Given what you know now, if you could go back in time and once again make the "choice" of whether to propose, would you still do so?

If his answer to 3 is "yes" he would still propose I think you might want to ask him a question. But inject a little painkiller first. 

I am truly relieved to hear you say you don't feel like you made a mistake. I love you and want this marriage to work. I admit though I was very anxious about how you would answer. In general you seem unhappy with me and honestly I am not sure why. I want you to think about this. I know you "love me" what I need to know is whether or not you are confident that we can actually "be good for each other - make each other happy". 

And somehow blended into this conversation - something along the lines of: "Often I say things that I do NOT expect you to get angry about and you actually do get really angry and say things that make me feel very bad. Over time that is very difficult for the person being "yelled at". 




credamdóchasgra said:


> Also:
> "be happy with me and need nothing emotionally from me."
> 
> this is seriously what he seems to need from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



credamdóchasgra said:


> Also:
> "be happy with me and need nothing emotionally from me."
> 
> this is seriously what he seems to need from me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't confuse his lack of desire to meet your needs with his needs.

Your needs are important, and your marriage cannot survive without him meeting them.. But, you are so focused on your needs i.e. you are trying to get him to meet them, or you are trying to get yourself to not have them.... It's real important that he is getting something out of the marriage. It's real important that you are working with a plan of knowing what is important to him and meeting it. I highly recommend you go to the library and take out the 3 books I ref'd, this will cost you nothing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



Deejo said:


> I don't think you have pulled away nearly enough, to be able to determine if his behavior is reactionary to you ... or if his behavior is simply who he is.



I think this is absolutely spot on. We have to take ourselves out of the dynamics of the relationship as much as we possibly can and that’s a lot of what the 180 is all about. After a while, through simple observation of their behaviour we can determine which part of their behaviour is dependent upon ourselves, the dynamics between us, and which parts they own “in total”. And all this with the thought that as an individual we can bring out both the best and the worst in our partner.

It’s been a real eye opener for me. I’ve totally withdrawn any contact with my stbx while at the same time I have access by way of snooping of some of the things she’s been saying to various people. I now know just how two faced, deceiving and lying she is! Not just with me but with other people as well. It is exceptionally hard for me to say that about the woman I was with for an exceptionally long time. It is very sad for me but at the same time I’m really glad I now know.

And also at the same time I’ve recognised it is a large part of the way my stbx “manages” her life, it is just who she is!

Bob


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



Hicks said:


> Don't confuse his lack of desire to meet your needs with his needs.
> 
> Your needs are important, and your marriage cannot survive without him meeting them.. But, you are so focused on your needs i.e. you are trying to get him to meet them, or you are trying to get yourself to not have them.... It's real important that he is getting something out of the marriage. It's real important that you are working with a plan of knowing what is important to him and meeting it. I highly recommend you go to the library and take out the 3 books I ref'd, this will cost you nothing.


Not to hijack this thread - but this comment really hit home with me. I am focused on getting my needs met and maybe I'm ignoring his. But it's hard to know what "his" are when he won't talk about them. Everytime I think I've hit the jackpot with what his needs are, they change - I get so many mixed signals it's not even funny. 

I've already read his needs/her needs, and a lot of other books. I've purchased so many e-books, that they are in 2 3-ring binders. But I haven't seen "The Care and Feeding of Husbands," - I'll read that one next.

Maybe I need to stop worrying about my needs being met and do my best to focus on his so he feels loved and cared for, then maybe he can meet my needs. He used to, but has quit trying and the reasons change and vary so I don't even really know the real truth of why.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Gotta be quick:

1. Hicks: I've read 5 LL, asked H to read it with me, he hasn't, I don't want to "push" him.
I honestly sense that his needs are:
a "happy wife" (his words)
unconditional acceptance for who he is, as he is, whatever he says or does

MEM:
we've both always had these issues to a degree.
I've uttered the word "mistake" since we got married, (in MC), it didn't faze him, but he never has.
I haven't asked, but I think he'd have proposed "knowing" all this.
I'm the one who's not so sure I'd jump in.

I'm in a rush, will reread more closely later
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Like MWIL I too don't want to hijack but Creda's got some very good debate going in various threads, so many things resonate with me - latest of which is this, which I could have written (but didn't!)



MEM11363 said:


> (SNIPS)
> And somehow blended into this conversation - something along the lines of: "Often I say things that I do NOT expect you to get angry about and you actually do get really angry and say things that make me feel very bad. Over time that is very difficult for the person being "yelled at".


And this: 


MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Not to hijack this thread - but this comment really hit home with me. I am focused on getting my needs met and maybe I'm ignoring his. But it's hard to know what "his" are when he won't talk about them. Everytime I think I've hit the jackpot with what his needs are, they change - I get so many mixed signals it's not even funny.
> 
> (SNIPS).


And this: 


credamdóchasgra said:


> Gotta be quick:
> 1. Hicks: I've read 5 LL, asked H to read it with me, he hasn't, I don't want to "push" him.
> (SNIPS)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The last of which is doubly difficult in our situation because not living together fulltime puts pressure on the time we do have together to be split between: son - him(OH) & me just being - him & me attempting to talk about stuff - him & me being parents & householders

Sorry Creda, if I could think of a thread title for myself that wasn't as long as War & Peace I'd go for it!


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

And I forgot the most salient point of all which is a huge thumbs up for Creda for seeming so open to actually not just acknowledging she could possibly make change, (remains to be seen if her H joins in the process so wholeheartedly) but also actually putting thoughts into practice
Something I've thus far really struggled with mainly for reasons outlined in my post above!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



credamdóchasgra said:


> Gotta be quick:
> 
> 1. Hicks: I've read 5 LL, asked H to read it with me, he hasn't, I don't want to "push" him.
> I honestly sense that his needs are:
> ...


Regarding those books, I don't think it's easy for 2 people to fill out questionnaires like "here is the answer" and everyone lives happily ever after. I think you should look at it as a process of discovery rather than get him to read the book and tell you the answer. In another post you made in the Sex Forum it sure looks like he expressed a need for sexual fulfillment. Another common need for a male is respect. You are translating that to "unconditional acceptance for who he is, as he is, whatever he says or does". I can understand why you think that way. You are having trouble seeing the 1-2 things he needs in the area of respect and you are getting overwhelmed and building into the statement in quotes. But more practically I would suggest to you that men want their wife's admiration for their accomplishments.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

You guys are so helpful and I really appreciate it.

We're so frustrated with each other.
Today we both let our frustration get the best of us:

I push, he shuts down; he shuts down, I push.
Switch the sequence, doesn't matter. It's a cycle. 

I know the cycle must be broken; but forcing myself to stop pushing in the hopes that eventually he'll open up, is a difficult gamble.
It requires patience and trust that I sometimes do not have:
patience and trust that if I back off and put aside my own needs for awhile, he'll grow to appreciate and love me in kind.

Hicks, know what's hard? One of his needs is appreciation and admiration for being a great guy...i have a hard time meeting that need when I feel hurt by his behavior that shuts me out, tells me he doesn't care, judges my thoughts and feelings, and yells at me. 
I have a hard time seeing the great guy and giving him that appreciation that I know he needs, because I don't feel it.
It's so hard to meet THAT need (for appreciation, respect, admiration) when I feel like he's dismissing mine; I'm not saying I refuse to do it...but it's hard, and it's why I exploded at him today.

Especially since there's a sad, dark part of me that thinks we made a mistake, and that part is eating at me.
Maybe I'm opening myself up for judgment by saying that, but it's true, and I'm willing to finance individual therapy if I have to, to deal with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



credamdóchasgra said:


> I'd love if he'd tell me what his needs are, aside from:
> "don't push me."
> "love me."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My guess is he would love it if you listened to him when he told you what his needs are rather than looking for some OTHER need. he TOLD you what he needs. But you don't want to do it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



vthomeschoolmom said:


> My guess is he would love it if you listened to him when he told you what his needs are rather than looking for some OTHER need. he TOLD you what he needs. But you don't want to do it.


If I may, I think Credam is worried there "won't be enough for her" in that sort of arrangement.

Of course, that point of view is legitamite - but it won't be effective in healing.

That's the fear one must get past for growth.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> My guess is he would love it if you listened to him when he told you what his needs are rather than looking for some OTHER need. he TOLD you what he needs. But you don't want to do it.


yup.
I failed yet again at "not pushing him" because I wanted something from him, which he didn't want to give.
but...What to him is "pushing," to me is "conversation."
I can't help it if he feels "pushed." he doesn't have to see it that way.
one solution: if he wants to get impatient and annoyed within 5 minutes, and shut down a conversation--even if to me it would be nice to have it--let him.
Then I stuff down my feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



Conrad said:


> If I may, I think Credam is worried there "won't be enough for her" in that sort of arrangement.


There is really only one way to find out. Because what she continues to insist on doing definitely is not working or going to work. 



> Of course, that point of view is legitamite - but it won't be effective in healing.
> 
> That's the fear one must get past for growth.


Yup.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> There is really only one way to find out. Because what she continues to insist on doing definitely is not working or going to work.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup.


I guess I keep testing.
I keep saying to myself: "cool off, don't push, don't this, don't that..." 
and when things seem to be going well, I think: "ok good, so if I ask for something now, because things are going well, he'll be receptive, right?" wrong.
It's like my impatience makes me "push my luck"---a distasteful way to say it, but that is how it feels.

{And that says nothing of my gut feeling that the "things" I'm "asking for" aren't empirically nasty chores that nobody would enjoy.
They're things I would hope my life partner would--here it comes---WANT to do (talk to me, support me).}
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Credam,

If I may share the following:

My wife has been blessed with tremendous looks. But, as most beautiful women know, this is a double-edged sword. It can leave you wondering what's real.

She was a young divorced mother of 2 and - of course - there was no shortage of suitors. Her kids were (and still are) the most important thing in her life.

So, when dating and evaluating "husband material", she would watch with amusement/horror/disgust as the suitors would attempt to connect with her son and daughter.

After 30 minutes or so of spirited play, the sideways glance would be sent her way...

You know what it meant.

"Is that enough for us to have sex now?"

Giving something only to get leaves one empty.

Of course, you really WANT a good relationship with this man. He is the one you chose. You are now afraid it won't happen. This - of course - has you doubling down on the things least likely to work.

What you described above "things going well, thought I'd try this..." sounded much like, "Can we have sex now".

Giving only to get.... being afraid you won't get enough when the dust settles... this sort of thing makes us crazy.

Remember this well. The type of affirmation you're seeking from him in some way resembles father/daughter. ANYTHING that looks like affirmation or has the slightest whiff of "father/daughter" needs to be minimized for you to be as attractive to him as you wish to be.

The parts work is key to this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



Conrad said:


> Credam,
> 
> If I may share the following:
> 
> ...


Uh-oh. 
I did not realize the connection between that affirmation and being unattractive. 
That is not a coincidence. 

Thank you, your wife, and the kids for the example (ok, thank those poor sidelong suitors too). It helps me see how I'm "giving in order to get." 

I do have the fear that I'll never "get" what I need. But apparently that fear will get in the way, so here's to the next step--overcoming that fear.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



credamdóchasgra said:


> Uh-oh.
> I did not realize the connection between that affirmation and being unattractive.
> That is not a coincidence.
> 
> ...


You simply MUST deal with that fear.

There are a number of ways it can subside, and it will likely be a combination of several.

That's where the parts work can be really helpful. In your case, I think it's essential - as you simply aren't going to rest until you really "know" what to do.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Well, for an update...

H came home from work and announced, angrily, that he thinks we need to cut down our MC frequency because it's "not doing any good" and is "too expensive."

Awesome. 
My worst fears confirmed: this crappy status quo is acceptable to him, and he is unwilling to become curious in a way that is clearly necessary, about how he contributes, what HIS parts are, and what HE can do. 

Until now, i was counting my blessings that i hadn't heard the "I don't need someone telling me" line from him, I was comforted that he *didn't* seem to "think he has all the answers."

Now I really feel ALL the weight on MY shoulders.


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## less_disgruntled (Oct 16, 2010)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*



credamdóchasgra said:


> unconditional acceptance for who he is, as he is, whatever he says or does


Not possible. If those are his words it means he feels unsafe being intimate with you. This could be something you do, or it could be something unrelated to you at all (I'm willing to guess it's the latter). What he needs to understand is that barring living with actual violence the only person who can make an adult feel 'safe' is himself. It's his responsibility, not yours. After all, if you really aren't the person who will let him open up to you, why would he want to be with you?

In a way though that can't be true. Unless you married a liar or impostor, you knew this guy when you got married, and you knew what marriage meant, so presumably you can accept whatever it is from him--but he may not feel that way. We often don't.

You can't really be the one to bring him to that realization. After all, telling someone that it's their "responsibility" to "take care of themselves" is not going to make anyone feel safe. IOW, If he does that for your sake b/c you tell him he has to, he's not really doing it.

If, OTOH, he didn't say that and it's you trying to explain or guess what he needs, I can't really help you here.


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## naturalist (Feb 10, 2011)

*Re: I was warned about this "male version of a fitness test" has reared its head.*

Hi credamdóchasgra, 

I don't have the full picture on your situation, but I would be wary of ignoring your unmet needs, especially open communication. It breeds resentment in you, is usually then expressed as anger, and that makes the emotional distance between partners even worse. 

With the help of TAM, I realized that my partner was practicing some text book passive-aggressive behavior, and it really, really, really helped clarify what I had been experiencing. It sounds like you're stuck in the same catch 22. This article in particle made tremendous sense to me: Get Your ANGRIES Out 

It looks at both partners cooperation in a dysfunctional dynamic, and gives suggestions for moving forward, and asks the hard questions of what to do if your spouse is uncooperative in trying to change for the better. 

I hope it helps!


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