# Oh God the Guilt



## WorkingWife

My original thread on probably wanting a divorce is here. (And for anyone who reads just my first post, no, I am not having a physical or emotional affair.)

*In Summary: *I get along well with my husband but I have regretted marrying him from the second I did it. I started to break up with him when we were dating and he talked me into staying. The biggest issue is that I had been supporting him financially, but because of or in addition to that, I did not feel any passion/intimacy with him. I kept telling myself what we had was better than what most married people have and I should count my blessings, it was good enough. But now, I find I cannot tolerate this level of "almost happy" any longer. I am also 51 with zero savings after working non-stop being self employed supporting him and a lifestyle he wanted that I did not all these years. Also after we married he started developing auto immune health issues and now has that, lots of exhaustion, and migraines.

******************

So, I told my husband I want a divorce about 3 days ago. Despite my telling him I was unhappy and trying to get him to do MarriageBuilders with me for years, he was completely blind sided and stunned. Suddenly he wanted to start going to church, and walking our dogs together every day, and work on my/our business. For 3 nights in a row now we sat down to dinner together at his request (something I've requested and he's refused to do our whole relationship.) Prior to my announcement I feel he has been trying really hard, and while I enjoy him much more, in my heart, I just want *out*. He asked if I would at least go to counseling or do marriage builders with him. (In the past he was hostile and unwilling when I tried to get him to do MB he was hostile/resistant and I gave up). He also went and listened to the entire book His Needs Her Needs from MB in one day and talked with me about it over dinner and talked with me for three hours. (There was a time when he would not even have a conversation with me.) Basically every single thing I have been complaining about for years he stopped doing and everything I've wanted he says he wants too. (Moving somewhere cheaper, eating dinner together, etc.)

He does NOT want a divorce. He says this has rocked him to his core and even though I told him I was not happy before he was selfish and lazy and didn't understand it was serious. He put me down jokingly all the time and it really crushed my spirit. He says he was just insecure and not feeling good about himself and that was just a bad habit and he hasn't done it once in the last 3 days.

I know it's only been 3 days but he has been consistently wonderful. But I still don't want to be married to him. I don't feel any passion and I feel burdened by him, like if I stay it's only because I feel guilty about hurting him.

I told him multiple times that I want a divorce and don't see any hope for that changing. But my actions are not consistent in that I still give him hugs and eat dinner with him and walk the dogs with him. He is acting like we are fixing our marriage and I feel that 5% maybe there is a chance, but 95% like I would just be staying out of obligation. 

I told him that I'm willing to stay in the house for awhile and see if my feelings change but I still plan to separate our finances (open a business account that does not have his name on it) and I want him to think about what he wants to do financially in the event that we do get divorced. I told him I want a legal separation to stop the clock on my business because I'm hoping to release a product in a few months that could be profitable and I don't want to owe him more. (I know that's horrible but I feel like I'm misleading him if I am not honest.)

His reaction is to tell me that he accepts all blame for our problems (I don't agree) but I am wrong to wait until I want a divorce to tell him I want a divorce, and I owe it to him to work on the marriage and he does not want any legal separation. I say "if we stay together what difference does it make? It is just to protect me because for 20 years we have not protected me. If we're going to stay married and make all this money then what is the problem? He gets very hurt at this and says he just can't bear to have that between us. He does not want to look back on our marriage some day and know we did that. Then he acts like we're happily married and all is well. When I am with him, I feel wishy washy and sympathetic to his point of view and I know he feels he just got hit with this, it's very new to him. When I get away from him and think, I feel manipulated and like his reaction is proof that he doesn't really care about my financial security.

So my questions: 
1. Am I wrong to stay in the house with him and act like a spouse if I feel pretty certain in my heart that I want a divorce, even if I have told him with words that I don't feel there is hope? I told him I would drop the money / divorce talk for a couple days, and he keeps talking about the future - things we have planned months from now, like it's all a given. 

2. If he's wiling to make all the changes I want should I consider that maybe our marriage IS "good enough" even if I don't feel any chemistry/passion? I know I took marriage vows but I feel I have to talk myself into loving him romantically, and I feel like staying with him may be the "right" thing to do morally, but it will also be me sacrificing a chance at a much more fulfilling relationship, or even just a life free of him. (That sound terrible, I don't dislike him but I do feel trapped in this relationship.)

BRIGHT SIDE
On the bright side, he has swung into action working on marketing for "our" business and is really excited about things and learning how to do things on the computer that before he instantly gave up on. He still has migraines but he said that while he's working he is distracted and they don't bother him as much at all. The minute he stops working the headache comes pounding back. He still has to nap a couple times throughout the day, but he obviously feels much better physically and about himself already. I feel relieved like if we do divorce the business may be making more, and it may cost me more, but only because he's genuinely made it more profitable. I could see us continuing to be business partners but I know he may be way too hurt for that, but at least he will have a little more money and options.

This makes me feel like I should stay at least a couple months for him to really get going. But I also fear that is leading him on more and it will just prolong the misery.


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## Vinnydee

To tell the truth, after reading about other marriages on here, my marriage is looking like heaven on earth. Marriage should not be hard. Life is so much better with partner you love. My wife and I are married for 44+ years. While we may not have had a traditional marriage, we always chose our marriage rather than trying to be married following a system that fails 50% of the time. If you think about it, half of marriages fail and yet everyone does it. Those same people would not buy a watch that failed half the time but yet put their happiness and life on the line for lousy odds. We just changed the rules and it worked for us. 

We are senior citizens now so I will advise you to do whatever makes you happy. We only have a very limited number of days on earth so don't waste them on someone you do not love.


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## jld

I would just leave. Preferably tomorrow.


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## sokillme

It's way early. First of all it's 3 days of a change, if he doesn't have it in him he will revert and you won't feel guilty. Besides that maybe he will truly change and your feelings will change. My advice is don't decide to do anything in 3 days, just be still for a little while. Don't get crazy if you are not out in a month or two that doesn't mean you have committed your life. If in a month from now you are still screaming to get out, at least your husband will be used to working again. I also think if the writing is on the wall the best thing you can do is be kind and treat him with dignity. You don't have to kick him when he is down like some do. You can slowly detach for a little bit so he can get used to the idea. 

You don't have to go out and party like crazy right away and certainly not until you are separate as that will be painful for him. 

Also I don't think you are going to get out of financially supporting him like you think. You should go talk to a lawyer. If it comes to it you may have to pay alimony. If he were on here people would be telling him to talk to a lawyer. You should find out if it even matters if he changes.

Finally if he has migraines that prevent him from working why has he not tried to get on some sort of government service? Have you tried that?

Your life was never going to change in 3 days you have been together for a long time, separating will also take some time.


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## arbitrator

*Since your relationship with him is showing signs of what you had originally desired from him, what possible harm could result from waiting him out a little longer? 

You say that it won't happen, but who's to say that you might not come to fall back in love with him all over again?*


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## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> So, I told my husband I want a divorce about 3 days ago. Despite my telling him I was unhappy and trying to get him to do MarriageBuilders with me for years, he was completely blind sided and stunned. Suddenly he wanted to start going to church, and walking our dogs together every day, and work on my/our business. For 3 nights in a row now we sat down to dinner together at his request (something I've requested and he's refused to do our whole relationship.) Prior to my announcement I feel he has been trying really hard, and while I enjoy him much more, in my heart, I just want *out*. He asked if I would at least go to counseling or do marriage builders with him. (In the past he was hostile and unwilling when I tried to get him to do MB he was hostile/resistant and I gave up). He also went and listened to the entire book His Needs Her Needs from MB in one day and talked with me about it over dinner and talked with me for three hours. (There was a time when he would not even have a conversation with me.) Basically every single thing I have been complaining about for years he stopped doing and everything I've wanted he says he wants too. (Moving somewhere cheaper, eating dinner together, etc.)
> 
> He does NOT want a divorce. He says this has rocked him to his core and even though I told him I was not happy before he was selfish and lazy and didn't understand it was serious. He put me down jokingly all the time and it really crushed my spirit. He says he was just insecure and not feeling good about himself and that was just a bad habit and he hasn't done it once in the last 3 days.
> 
> I know it's only been 3 days but he has been consistently wonderful. But I still don't want to be married to him. I don't feel any passion and I feel burdened by him, like if I stay it's only because I feel guilty about hurting him.
> 
> I told him multiple times that I want a divorce and don't see any hope for that changing. But my actions are not consistent in that I still give him hugs and eat dinner with him and walk the dogs with him. He is acting like we are fixing our marriage and I feel that 5% maybe there is a chance, but 95% like I would just be staying out of obligation.


This is not going to last. He is only doing these things in a desperate attempt to keep you there, this isnt who he really is. He would have been working on these things with you long ago if he were properly vested in the marriage. He has been lazy and selfish, now he thinks if he runs around and does all this, you'll stay. Its like, SEE? LOOK, IM DOING ALL THAT STUFF YOU ALWAYS WANTED, YOU CANT LEAVE NOW! At least it is making things more tolerable for now. 



WorkingWife said:


> I told him that I'm willing to stay in the house for awhile and see if my feelings change but I still plan to separate our finances (open a business account that does not have his name on it) and I want him to think about what he wants to do financially in the event that we do get divorced. I told him I want a legal separation to stop the clock on my business because I'm hoping to release a product in a few months that could be profitable and I don't want to owe him more. (I know that's horrible but I feel like I'm misleading him if I am not honest.)
> 
> His reaction is to tell me that he accepts all blame for our problems (I don't agree) but I am wrong to wait until I want a divorce to tell him I want a divorce, and I owe it to him to work on the marriage and he does not want any legal separation. I say "if we stay together what difference does it make? It is just to protect me because for 20 years we have not protected me. If we're going to stay married and make all this money then what is the problem? He gets very hurt at this and says he just can't bear to have that between us. He does not want to look back on our marriage some day and know we did that. Then he acts like we're happily married and all is well. When I am with him, I feel wishy washy and sympathetic to his point of view and I know he feels he just got hit with this, it's very new to him. When I get away from him and think, I feel manipulated and like his reaction is proof that he doesn't really care about my financial security.
> 
> So my questions:
> 1. Am I wrong to stay in the house with him and act like a spouse if I feel pretty certain in my heart that I want a divorce, even if I have told him with words that I don't feel there is hope? I told him I would drop the money / divorce talk for a couple days, and he keeps talking about the future - things we have planned months from now, like it's all a given.


If you know that you want to end it, then yes, it would be unfair and misleading to him if you stay and "act like a spouse". Its prolonging the inevitable and giving him false hopes. 




WorkingWife said:


> 2. If he's wiling to make all the changes I want should I consider that maybe our marriage IS "good enough" even if I don't feel any chemistry/passion? I know I took marriage vows but I feel I have to talk myself into loving him romantically, and I feel like staying with him may be the "right" thing to do morally, but it will also be me sacrificing a chance at a much more fulfilling relationship, or even just a life free of him. (That sound terrible, I don't dislike him but I do feel trapped in this relationship.)


No one should stay in something where they are truly unhappy. "Good enough" is not good. That takes away the chance for either of you to find real happiness. 



WorkingWife said:


> BRIGHT SIDE
> On the bright side, he has swung into action working on marketing for "our" business and is really excited about things and learning how to do things on the computer that before he instantly gave up on. He still has migraines but he said that while he's working he is distracted and they don't bother him as much at all. The minute he stops working the headache comes pounding back. He still has to nap a couple times throughout the day, but he obviously feels much better physically and about himself already. I feel relieved like if we do divorce the business may be making more, and it may cost me more, but only because he's genuinely made it more profitable. I could see us continuing to be business partners but I know he may be way too hurt for that, but at least he will have a little more money and options.
> 
> This makes me feel like I should stay at least a couple months for him to really get going. But I also fear that is leading him on more and it will just prolong the misery.


See? So he CAN work. I think sticking this out longer so he can keep working on the business would be using him, to be honest. Though I can see the thought process there....


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## EleGirl

This is a hard one.

He did not pay attention before because he really did not hear you. He was happy. So when you complained, all he heard was nag nag nag. And then he could go back to his happy bubble. You popped the bubble by telling him you want a divorce. There is no telling if this shook him to the core and the changes are premanet, or if he will just slowly stop with the changed and re-grow his bubble.

No one here can tell you want to you. You need to make that decision. What I will tell you is that whatever you do, put all of yourself into.

If you want to give the marriage one more try, then do it putting 100% into it. MB requires that. And if both of you put good effort into it, you will most likely build up the passion you are looking for. What can do it set check points, every 3 months evaluate progress. If things are truly getting better and your are getting that loving feeling then go for another 6 months. If he's slipping and/or your feel like you do now, then end it.

If you don't want to try to fix this, then just leave. Don't stay with him, leave. If you stay and do not put 100% into fixing it, you are doomed to remain is an unhappy quagmire.


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## lifeistooshort

Of course he doesn't want a divorce..... he'd have to actually support himself. 

I bet none of his efforts will involve getting a job..... that should tell you everything you need to know. 

He's a manipulator..... he treated you like crap when he thought you weren't going anywhere because that's who he is. All of his efforts are aimed at maintaining his lifestyle and he will do what it takes to get back to the status quo.

I personally think you're wasting your time but it's up to you. If you'd feel better about giving him a chance so you can see for yourself that he's about himself then knock yourself out.


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## Cooper

Let's say he continues his new wonderful ways. Do you ever see yourself being passionately in love with him? Or respecting him? Or being able to let your guard down instead of waiting for his old behavior to return?

When it gets to the point that you simply do not like the type of person your spouse is I don't think you can every turn that back into love. You regretted marrying him from the beginning, maybe there never was any love, now you stay out of obligation.

So your thread title "Oh God the guilt", I'm not sure if you feel guilty for wanting to divorce him or you feel guilty for ever marrying him. Regardless….guilt and obligation are not conducive to a happy marriage, or a happy life. 

To answer your questions;

1) Staying together in the house may be the most financially feasible thing to do for now, but pretending to be a happy couple is a mistake. You can't just erase all those years of resentment you have built up, you're just sweeping it under the rug.

2) From what you have written I do not see you ever being happy and emotionally fulfilled in your marriage. You used the term "good enough" but the reality is it's never going to be good enough, it's always going to be a regret. Your sights are set on being "free of him" anything short of that is just wallowing in misery.


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## katiecrna

I think you should separate and give it time. Staying together in the house is complicating things for him and for you. You need your own space to think clearly and so goes he.


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## Marc878

From reading your thread I'd get out now. Why drag this out? 

Start the separation immediately. Divorce takes awhile anyway.


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## Lostme

I would give it a couple of weeks, that is about how long most people can keep up a false change.

In the meantime, I would still do what you need to do to proceed with a divorce( separate the business finances etc). I would stop bringing it up to him all the time, he knows you want out so do what you have to do.

You should not keep reminding him you want a divorce, this way you will see if his change will be genuine and he truly wants to better himself otherwise he will just do it to appease you to keep you there to pay his way in life and not to better himself.


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## MrRight

As you say - no matter how wonderful he is behaving etc - you just want out.

Some people are really good at being decisive - I bet of he got fed up with you he would just go without a thought.

If there are no kids - there is nothing to stop you.


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## Elizabeth001

He's afraid of losing his meal ticket. That is all. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> If there are no kids - there is nothing to stop you.


This has crossed my mind. 13 years of marriage, almost 20 years of being a couple, and we have built nothing - no family, no house, no savings. And his prior reluctance to spend time with family even means many fewer memories. We have dogs, but they only live so long.


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## WorkingWife

Vinnydee said:


> To tell the truth, after reading about other marriages on here, my marriage is looking like heaven on earth.


And I have had the opposite experience. Reading other people's stories - I envy people who got out. And when I compare my marriage to those described by people who say they are happy, I feel a pang in my heart.


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## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> This has crossed my mind. 13 years of marriage, almost 20 years of being a couple, and we have built nothing - no family, no house, no savings. And his prior reluctance to spend time with family even means many fewer memories. We have dogs, but they only live so long.


This is pretty sad.


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## WorkingWife

sokillme said:


> It's way early. First of all it's 3 days of a change, if he doesn't have it in him he will revert and you won't feel guilty. Besides that maybe he will truly change and your feelings will change. My advice is don't decide to do anything in 3 days, just be still for a little while. Don't get crazy if you are not out in a month or two that doesn't mean you have committed your life. If in a month from now you are still screaming to get out, at least your husband will be used to working again. I also think if the writing is on the wall the best thing you can do is be kind and treat him with dignity. You don't have to kick him when he is down like some do. You can slowly detach for a little bit so he can get used to the idea.


This makes sense and is along the lines of what I am thinking. My emotions are so all over the place, I think I need to just give it a little time. What bothers me is that he said I blindsided him by deciding I wanted a divorce and *then *telling him. But just 2 - 3 weeks ago I told him I didn't see us both being able to be happy in future years if we stay together and his reaction was "don't worry about it and don't act all mopey." So I acted normal (happy, affectionate, kind, etc.). Now I feel like even though I have told him I want a divorce, he is acting like "I have resolved her issues and we are rejuvenating our marriage. He keeps talking about things we're doing together in the future. He's having dinner with me every night. Talking with me. Etc. I feel like if I come back later and separate or file for divorce, he will say I misled him again. But if I let this go on a couple weeks to evaluate my feelings, then divorce him anyhow, I guess that's not going to be much worse than if I walked tonight.



sokillme said:


> You don't have to go out and party like crazy right away and certainly not until you are separate as that will be painful for him.


Agree! I would never do that. That would be cruel. And immoral as we're still married, whether I'm feeling it or not. 




sokillme said:


> Also I don't think you are going to get out of financially supporting him like you think. You should go talk to a lawyer. If it comes to it you may have to pay alimony. If he were on here people would be telling him to talk to a lawyer. You should find out if it even matters if he changes.


I have seen two lawyers and I will definitely be paying support. The better my business does before divorce, the more he will get, actually. However, my thought is that if this wake up call has kick started him back into living and being productive, and his efforts genuinely do take the business to a new level, then that is better for both of us. Right now attys said I'd pay about $1,200 - $1,500 a month. I might have to give a token amount to buy him out of the business but probably not. There is no way he could survive on that. He'll have to do something.

However, if the business takes off before divorce thanks to his work, if I could get him to agree to x% of profits in lieu of alimony, or even in addition to a smaller amount of alimony, that would be a win for both of us because I'd still be motivated to be as profitable as possible, but not afraid of getting in a spot where I simply could not pay what was ordered. 

And it would relieve my guilt of leaving him penniless, even if it is his own doing.

I have realized, in large part thanks to people on this forum, that I am very co-dependant. I am worrying about setting him up financially when really that is his problem. But the truth is I do feel compelled to do that.




sokillme said:


> Finally if he has migraines that prevent him from working why has he not tried to get on some sort of government service? Have you tried that?


He is thinking about it now. He'd had his own business but let it fizzle. The migraines are just a couple years old but he's had other illness (symptoms similar to MS) for about 12 years now. Neither of us even realized that disability was an option until everyone started asking why he's not on it. We also are not the "govt. handout" types - but he'll have to do something. 



sokillme said:


> Your life was never going to change in 3 days you have been together for a long time, separating will also take some time.


Thanks.


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## WorkingWife

arbitrator said:


> *Since your relationship with him is showing signs of what you had originally desired from him, what possible harm could result from waiting him out a little longer?
> 
> You say that it won't happen, but who's to say that you might not come to fall back in love with him all over again?*


That is true. Like I told sokillme, I feel bad because he's acting like we have decided to stay married as long as he resolves the issues I've raised. And every time he acts like that's the plan, I feel like I should be reminding him I don't currently feel that way, so he later won't say I was covert and blind-sided him again. 

But it is possible my feelings *may* change.

If I leave he's going to be upset whether I do it today or next month. I might as well give it a month or two to see. He really is different so far - not just that he's working and doing things, but also his temperament is totally different (so far). He's not all "irritated/put out" by every tiny inconvenience he encounters like he was before.

I still look at his personality and just don't think he's "the one" but who knows that may change.


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## WorkingWife

3Xnocharm said:


> This is not going to last. He is only doing these things in a desperate attempt to keep you there, this isnt who he really is. He would have been working on these things with you long ago if he were properly vested in the marriage. He has been lazy and selfish, now he thinks if he runs around and does all this, you'll stay. Its like, *SEE? LOOK, IM DOING ALL THAT STUFF YOU ALWAYS WANTED, YOU CANT LEAVE NOW! *At least it is making things more tolerable for now.


That. THAT is exactly what it is like. I raised objections based on how he's treated me and behaved for almost 20 years and he acts like "now you can't leave because I've answered those objections."

The only thing I would say that feels different is that he's genuinely acting happy to do things he previously refused to do, or did in an irritated way - like sit down to dinner, walk the dogs with me, stay calm when the dog is whining in the car or incessantly licking her paws, do thoughtful things for me, etc.



3Xnocharm said:


> No one should stay in something where they are truly unhappy. "Good enough" is not good. That takes away the chance for either of you to find real happiness.


That's my thought. I don't want to go to my grave having settled.



3Xnocharm said:


> See? So he CAN work. I think sticking this out longer so he can keep working on the business would be using him, to be honest. Though I can see the thought process there....


Not only CAN he, he already feels better physically. He's exhausted, but that was the case before. Now he feels better about himself and it shows in his overall attitude. I don't know if I can get my love for him back though. But if not, at least he's becoming a better person for the next woman and his family and friends.


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## WorkingWife

EleGirl said:


> This is a hard one.
> 
> He did not pay attention before because he really did not hear you. He was happy. So when you complained, all he heard was nag nag nag. And then he could go back to his happy bubble. You popped the bubble by telling him you want a divorce. There is no telling if this shook him to the core and the changes are premanet, or if he will just slowly stop with the changed and re-grow his bubble.
> 
> No one here can tell you want to you. You need to make that decision. What I will tell you is that whatever you do, put all of yourself into.
> 
> If you want to give the marriage one more try, then do it putting 100% into it. MB requires that. And if both of you put good effort into it, you will most likely build up the passion you are looking for. What can do it set check points, every 3 months evaluate progress. If things are truly getting better and your are getting that loving feeling then go for another 6 months. If he's slipping and/or your feel like you do now, then end it.
> 
> If you don't want to try to fix this, then just leave. Don't stay with him, leave. If you stay and do not put 100% into fixing it, you are doomed to remain is an unhappy quagmire.


Thank you EleGirl. I think you are right on and I want to thank you for always giving such wise, thoughtful advice.


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## WorkingWife

sokillme said:


> This is pretty sad.


Yes, it is. 

Now that he's had his epiphany he says he wants to spend the next 20 years making it up to me. That he loves me more than anything, and our marriage, what we have is worth saving, I am the perfect one for him... The problem is, I don't think I want to spend the next 20 years with him, even if he does become a better man.


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## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> This makes sense and is along the lines of what I am thinking. My emotions are so all over the place, I think I need to just give it a little time. What bothers me is that he said I blindsided him by deciding I wanted a divorce and *then *telling him. But just 2 - 3 weeks ago I told him I didn't see us both being able to be happy in future years if we stay together and his reaction was "don't worry about it and don't act all mopey." So I acted normal (happy, affectionate, kind, etc.). Now I feel like even though I have told him I want a divorce, he is acting like "I have resolved her issues and we are rejuvenating our marriage. He keeps talking about things we're doing together in the future. He's having dinner with me every night. Talking with me. Etc. I feel like if I come back later and separate or file for divorce, he will say I misled him again. But if I let this go on a couple weeks to evaluate my feelings, then divorce him anyhow, I guess that's not going to be much worse than if I walked tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree! I would never do that. That would be cruel. And immoral as we're still married, whether I'm feeling it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen two lawyers and I will definitely be paying support. The better my business does before divorce, the more he will get, actually. However, my thought is that if this wake up call has kick started him back into living and being productive, and his efforts genuinely do take the business to a new level, then that is better for both of us. Right now attys said I'd pay about $1,200 - $1,500 a month. I might have to give a token amount to buy him out of the business but probably not. There is no way he could survive on that. He'll have to do something.
> 
> However, if the business takes off before divorce thanks to his work, if I could get him to agree to x% of profits in lieu of alimony, or even in addition to a smaller amount of alimony, that would be a win for both of us because I'd still be motivated to be as profitable as possible, but not afraid of getting in a spot where I simply could not pay what was ordered.
> 
> And it would relieve my guilt of leaving him penniless, even if it is his own doing.
> 
> I have realized, in large part thanks to people on this forum, that I am very co-dependant. I am worrying about setting him up financially when really that is his problem. But the truth is I do feel compelled to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is thinking about it now. He'd had his own business but let it fizzle. The migraines are just a couple years old but he's had other illness (symptoms similar to MS) for about 12 years now. Neither of us even realized that disability was an option until everyone started asking why he's not on it. We also are not the "govt. handout" types - but he'll have to do something.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.


You need to be honest if you are still not feeling it you need to say it. You just need to do it kindly. "Look I am giving this a try but I am not promising. You had years of me telling you I was feeling this way and you didn't change. That killed a lot of love in me. I'm sorry but it may very well be too late. I am trying because we have so much history and I still care about you, but I am trying not staying."

Have you been telling him what you have written here. You have nothing for the 12 years you were together, no savings, no house. You have felt unsupported for a very long time. You have felt emotionally unsupported? You are not sure how to get your feelings back. This is who you thought he was. This is what you dream was to have in a partner. If he is going to have a chance he has to know what to strive for. 

Personally I think this new found commitment will be short lived and that will remove some of your guilt. But I also thing if you keep telling him the truth the shock will be less sever and make the separation easier though it's not going to be easy. Plus it may start to push him away because it doesn't sound like he was the type to take constructive criticism. 

As to that, it's unhealthy for you not to state what you need, and depending on how you where in the relationship if you only said what you wanted every once in a while you probably contributed to the demise of the relationship. Expecting your husband to go to family events, to work when possible or find some means of support, connect emotional with you, is not like expecting him to pick up his socks, or squeeze the toothpaste right. Some things in marriage you should let go as they may annoy you but people can be annoying. Other major things need to be tackled head on before they grow and spread like cancer. You have a right to demand what was a part of the original terms of the agreement. Learn this before you go on to your next relationship or even for this one as you will never get your soulmate if you don't expect it. It is human nature for people to get lazy and it's OK as a spouse to say, "do you see what you are doing here?"

As far as the disability I would try to get that first. If you start making money and pay him out he won't get on it and you will have to pay more. If he truly has a disability then that is what they are there for. Migraines are no joke. This is not a person who just is lazy, he has a medical condition. I as a tax payer have no problem with a person really needs it, my problem and most peoples problem is with the ones who are able bodied and don't want to work. 

Deal with this before you divorce. It will put you both in a much better financial position and may even alleviate some pressure in your marriage and help it heal if that is possible.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> I feel like I should be reminding him I don't currently feel that way, so he later won't say I was covert and blind-sided him again.


You absolute should. This is part of being a good spouse being honest even when it's hard. 



WorkingWife said:


> But it is possible my feelings *may* change.


They may but you can't promise that, so say that.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> Yes, it is.
> 
> Now that he's had his epiphany he says he wants to spend the next 20 years making it up to me. That he loves me more than anything, and our marriage, what we have is worth saving, I am the perfect one for him... The problem is, I don't think I want to spend the next 20 years with him, even if he does become a better man.


Another hard lesson for you to learn is you enabled his behavior by not demanding more. That is codependency. Good relationships don't work this way. I am not saying nagging. But I am saying, being honest that you will not put up with it, and setting a realistic timetable for it to change, and if it doesn't giving consequences. 

Notice how is his suddenly able to work. I suspect if you do divorce him he will have a job sooner or later. Man's got to eat, or at the very least he will be on disability. Though your last post now gives me some doubts. I am not so happy as a tax payer.


----------



## Openminded

When you told him you wanted out, life suddenly got real for him and he behaved in a totally predictable way. Whether he can keep that "new him" version going forever (and whether it ultimately matters to you if he does) is the question. My guess would be he probably won't be able to because permanent change is difficult and he has shown no past ability to deal with difficult things. What he is very good at is manipulating you. He doesn't want his gravy train ending. Obviously, time will tell if the "new him" is real. Be ready.


----------



## MrRight

Op - you probably have the same issue as me - as confirmed during my psychotherapy sessions pre-marriage.

cant make endings! a big big issue.


why not leave him a note and just vanish. save your life - imagine someone is pointing a gun at you and just run - it's that serious - he's killing your life and you allow it.

no kids? I would be off like a shot if I had no child. As it is I have to sit it out.


----------



## Satya

Brutal honesty coming... 
@WorkingWife, you're 51.
How much longer are you going to support your sponge of a husband?

Your guilt only reinforces to me that you really just need to leave him. After all your previous efforts to be clear about what you needed from him and he had UMPTY second chances from you, because you stayed and allowed your guilt to grow... Only now when YOU have finally stopped the insanity (the broken record on repeat) is he SCARED. Because, hey, you weren't supposed to reach your limit, because you hadn't before. You were supposed to complain so he could nod his head until you went away and everything went back to the way it was. 

His reaction is CHILDISH to me. It's how a CHILD reacts when they know the jig is actually UP. They start over compensating for what they KNEW was bad behavior they got away with consistently. Unfortunately, your husband likely never learned this hard but necessary lesson in childhood, else there's a good chance he would have not taken advantage of your support at all or for so long. He would have heard your cries for help and ACTED to rectify the issue, because he'd know from experience that he may LOSE YOU. 

I'm not painting your husband as all bad, you have also owned your part in things and highlighted his good qualities. That's all well and good but the fact remains that his actions over years speak for themselves. 

If he really cared to meet your needs, he would have found a way, end of. He would have shown you with his actions, what he was willing to do out of love. I actually don't think he loves you as much as you love him. I think he needs you. There's a marked difference in how someone acts in both instances. My ex H was sweet but he needed me, without a doubt. My current H LOVES and ADORES me. I can't put the difference into words well, but with the former it was like pulling teeth. With the latter, it's effortless and natural, and often pleasantly unexpected. THAT'S how you know you are truly loved, IMO.


----------



## arbitrator

WorkingWife said:


> That is true. Like I told sokillme, I feel bad because he's acting like we have decided to stay married as long as he resolves the issues I've raised. And every time he acts like that's the plan, I feel like I should be reminding him I don't currently feel that way, so he later won't say I was covert and blind-sided him again.
> 
> But it is possible my feelings *may* change.
> 
> If I leave he's going to be upset whether I do it today or next month. I might as well give it a month or two to see. He really is different so far - not just that he's working and doing things, but also his temperament is totally different (so far). He's not all "irritated/put out" by every tiny inconvenience he encounters like he was before.
> 
> I still look at his personality and just don't think he's "the one" but who knows that may change.


*Even though it is clearly understood that there are no firm guarantees in place here, I simply cannot argue with the fact that are a good, fair-minded woman for doing that, m'dear!*


----------



## aine

WorkingWife said:


> My original thread on probably wanting a divorce is here. (And for anyone who reads just my first post, no, I am not having a physical or emotional affair.)
> 
> *In Summary: *I get along well with my husband but I have regretted marrying him from the second I did it. I started to break up with him when we were dating and he talked me into staying. The biggest issue is that I had been supporting him financially, but because of or in addition to that, I did not feel any passion/intimacy with him. I kept telling myself what we had was better than what most married people have and I should count my blessings, it was good enough. But now, I find I cannot tolerate this level of "almost happy" any longer. I am also 51 with zero savings after working non-stop being self employed supporting him and a lifestyle he wanted that I did not all these years. Also after we married he started developing auto immune health issues and now has that, lots of exhaustion, and migraines.
> 
> ******************
> 
> 
> So, I told my husband I want a divorce about 3 days ago. Despite my telling him I was unhappy and trying to get him to do MarriageBuilders with me for years, he was completely blind sided and stunned. Suddenly he wanted to start going to church, and walking our dogs together every day, and work on my/our business. For 3 nights in a row now we sat down to dinner together at his request (something I've requested and he's refused to do our whole relationship.) Prior to my announcement I feel he has been trying really hard, and while I enjoy him much more, in my heart, I just want *out*. He asked if I would at least go to counseling or do marriage builders with him. (In the past he was hostile and unwilling when I tried to get him to do MB he was hostile/resistant and I gave up). He also went and listened to the entire book His Needs Her Needs from MB in one day and talked with me about it over dinner and talked with me for three hours. (There was a time when he would not even have a conversation with me.) Basically every single thing I have been complaining about for years he stopped doing and everything I've wanted he says he wants too. (Moving somewhere cheaper, eating dinner together, etc.)
> 
> He does NOT want a divorce. He says this has rocked him to his core and even though I told him I was not happy before he was selfish and lazy and didn't understand it was serious. He put me down jokingly all the time and it really crushed my spirit. He says he was just insecure and not feeling good about himself and that was just a bad habit and he hasn't done it once in the last 3 days.
> 
> I know it's only been 3 days but he has been consistently wonderful. But I still don't want to be married to him. I don't feel any passion and I feel burdened by him, like if I stay it's only because I feel guilty about hurting him.
> 
> I told him multiple times that I want a divorce and don't see any hope for that changing. But my actions are not consistent in that I still give him hugs and eat dinner with him and walk the dogs with him. He is acting like we are fixing our marriage and I feel that 5% maybe there is a chance, but 95% like I would just be staying out of obligation.
> 
> I told him that I'm willing to stay in the house for awhile and see if my feelings change but I still plan to separate our finances (open a business account that does not have his name on it) and I want him to think about what he wants to do financially in the event that we do get divorced. I told him I want a legal separation to stop the clock on my business because I'm hoping to release a product in a few months that could be profitable and I don't want to owe him more. (I know that's horrible but I feel like I'm misleading him if I am not honest.)
> 
> His reaction is to tell me that he accepts all blame for our problems (I don't agree) but I am wrong to wait until I want a divorce to tell him I want a divorce, and I owe it to him to work on the marriage and he does not want any legal separation. I say "if we stay together what difference does it make? It is just to protect me because for 20 years we have not protected me. If we're going to stay married and make all this money then what is the problem? He gets very hurt at this and says he just can't bear to have that between us. He does not want to look back on our marriage some day and know we did that. Then he acts like we're happily married and all is well. When I am with him, I feel wishy washy and sympathetic to his point of view and I know he feels he just got hit with this, it's very new to him. When I get away from him and think, I feel manipulated and like his reaction is proof that he doesn't really care about my financial security.
> 
> So my questions:
> 1. Am I wrong to stay in the house with him and act like a spouse if I feel pretty certain in my heart that I want a divorce, even if I have told him with words that I don't feel there is hope? I told him I would drop the money / divorce talk for a couple days, and he keeps talking about the future - things we have planned months from now, like it's all a given.
> 
> 2. If he's wiling to make all the changes I want should I consider that maybe our marriage IS "good enough" even if I don't feel any chemistry/passion? I know I took marriage vows but I feel I have to talk myself into loving him romantically, and I feel like staying with him may be the "right" thing to do morally, but it will also be me sacrificing a chance at a much more fulfilling relationship, or even just a life free of him. (That sound terrible, I don't dislike him but I do feel trapped in this relationship.)
> 
> BRIGHT SIDE
> On the bright side, he has swung into action working on marketing for "our" business and is really excited about things and learning how to do things on the computer that before he instantly gave up on. He still has migraines but he said that while he's working he is distracted and they don't bother him as much at all. The minute he stops working the headache comes pounding back. He still has to nap a couple times throughout the day, but he obviously feels much better physically and about himself already. I feel relieved like if we do divorce the business may be making more, and it may cost me more, but only because he's genuinely made it more profitable. I could see us continuing to be business partners but I know he may be way too hurt for that, but at least he will have a little more money and options.
> 
> This makes me feel like I should stay at least a couple months for him to really get going. But I also fear that is leading him on more and it will just prolong the misery.


You sound like the proverbial WAW who has hit her head of a wall for years trying to get H to listen, now when the chips are down, he is getting off his butt and listening real good.

YOu have waited this long, no harm in waiting some more to see if he implements the changes you want.
Love, passion and desire can always come back and a 'new' marriage built from a new foundation. IMO those marriages are the best.
You could divorce him and meet someone else with a whole set of other issues.
YOu could divorce him and be perfectly happy living alone. I would say wait and see what H brings to the table and go with it, there is no harm for now.


----------



## MrRight

The changes he's made - doubt if he will keep it up. And you will know he is only being a good boy because you threatened divorce.

Why do we cling on to these third rate relationships?


----------



## WorkingWife

Wow you make some excellent points.

And yes, he swears he loves me but I have never felt adored by him, and it's always felt like pulling teeth. Like to me, we are two people who like each other and get along well and have several things in common (like the same TV shows, same political views, pretty similar energy level for socializing, etc.) But when he would say "I love you" I would think "No, you love that I have a sunny disposition and you love what I do for you. 
You don't even really KNOW me, the real me." 

I told him last night that I didn't want to lead him on by acting normal. I said I am trying to keep an open mind, but I still believe it is too late. He was hurt but not sulky and said he understood. 

But then he said something that actually kind of creeped me out - he said he wants to be the one to make up for the last 20 years by making the next 20 wonderful, he is the only one who really knows the hell I've been through because of him." ??? 

I don't want to overanalyze every comment, obviously he is trying to keep me and will probably say a lot of things. The proof is in the pudding - how is his ongoing behavior and how do I truly feel about being with him. *Do *I feel genuinely adored? But anyhow - that, I caused this only I can fix it comment really creeped me out, like he's some hostage taker that hurt and neglected me, and now wants to be the hero to nurse me back to health. Is it me, or is that kind of a WTF? sentiment?





Satya said:


> Brutal honesty coming...
> @WorkingWife, you're 51.
> How much longer are you going to support your sponge of a husband?
> 
> Your guilt only reinforces to me that you really just need to leave him. After all your previous efforts to be clear about what you needed from him and he had UMPTY second chances from you, because you stayed and allowed your guilt to grow... Only now when YOU have finally stopped the insanity (the broken record on repeat) is he SCARED. Because, hey, you weren't supposed to reach your limit, because you hadn't before. You were supposed to complain so he could nod his head until you went away and everything went back to the way it was.
> 
> His reaction is CHILDISH to me. It's how a CHILD reacts when they know the jig is actually UP. They start over compensating for what they KNEW was bad behavior they got away with consistently. Unfortunately, your husband likely never learned this hard but necessary lesson in childhood, else there's a good chance he would have not taken advantage of your support at all or for so long. He would have heard your cries for help and ACTED to rectify the issue, because he'd know from experience that he may LOSE YOU.
> 
> I'm not painting your husband as all bad, you have also owned your part in things and highlighted his good qualities. That's all well and good but the fact remains that his actions over years speak for themselves.
> 
> If he really cared to meet your needs, he would have found a way, end of. He would have shown you with his actions, what he was willing to do out of love. I actually don't think he loves you as much as you love him. I think he needs you. There's a marked difference in how someone acts in both instances. My ex H was sweet but he needed me, without a doubt. My current H LOVES and ADORES me. I can't put the difference into words well, but with the former it was like pulling teeth. With the latter, it's effortless and natural, and often pleasantly unexpected. THAT'S how you know you are truly loved, IMO.


----------



## WorkingWife

sokillme said:


> You need to be honest if you are still not feeling it you need to say it. You just need to do it kindly. "Look I am giving this a try but I am not promising. You had years of me telling you I was feeling this way and you didn't change. That killed a lot of love in me. I'm sorry but it may very well be too late. I am trying because we have so much history and I still care about you, but I am trying not staying."


Thank you, this is perfect. I may memorize it. I didn't go quite this far last night but I have said this to him in the last few days. Last night I told him I was still thinking divorce and trying to be open minded but not sure I could get the love back. He said he knew and I dropped it.



sokillme said:


> Have you been telling him what you have written here. You have nothing for the 12 years you were together, no savings, no house. You have felt unsupported for a very long time. You have felt emotionally unsupported? You are not sure how to get your feelings back. This is who you thought he was. This is what you dream was to have in a partner. If he is going to have a chance he has to know what to strive for.


Yes. I have been telling him the physical things - no savings, no home, no children, etc. for years. I have only started telling him that I feel emotionally unsupported in the last 2 - 3 years since I found marriagebuilders on the internet. Prior to that I definitely felt that way but I just didn't have the understanding/self awareness/confidence to say it. That is where I am guilty for letting this go on. and on. and on.




sokillme said:


> Personally I think this new found commitment will be short lived and that will remove some of your guilt. But I also thing if you keep telling him the truth the shock will be less sever and make the separation easier though it's not going to be easy. Plus it may start to push him away because it doesn't sound like he was the type to take constructive criticism.
> 
> As to that, it's unhealthy for you not to state what you need, and depending on how you where in the relationship if you only said what you wanted every once in a while you probably contributed to the demise of the relationship. Expecting your husband to go to family events, to work when possible or find some means of support, connect emotional with you, is not like expecting him to pick up his socks, or squeeze the toothpaste right. Some things in marriage you should let go as they may annoy you but people can be annoying. Other major things need to be tackled head on before they grow and spread like cancer. You have a right to demand what was a part of the original terms of the agreement. Learn this before you go on to your next relationship or even for this one as you will never get your soulmate if you don't expect it. It is human nature for people to get lazy and it's OK as a spouse to say, "do you see what you are doing here?"


Thank you, this is all very true. I am going to try to find a therapist Monday too. I think of myself as a really great person, yet I feel like I have been punishing myself for some unknown crime all my adult life by the men and treatment I have accepted.

[/QUOTE]
As far as the disability I would try to get that first. If you start making money and pay him out he won't get on it and you will have to pay more. If he truly has a disability then that is what they are there for. Migraines are no joke. This is not a person who just is lazy, he has a medical condition. I as a tax payer have no problem with a person really needs it, my problem and most peoples problem is with the ones who are able bodied and don't want to work. 

Deal with this before you divorce. It will put you both in a much better financial position and may even alleviate some pressure in your marriage and help it heal if that is possible.[/QUOTE]

Good idea. Thanks again.


----------



## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> Op - you probably have the same issue as me - as confirmed during my psychotherapy sessions pre-marriage.
> 
> cant make endings! a big big issue.
> 
> 
> why not leave him a note and just vanish. save your life - imagine someone is pointing a gun at you and just run - it's that serious - he's killing your life and you allow it.
> 
> no kids? I would be off like a shot if I had no child. As it is I have to sit it out.


Of course, you really don't have to sit it out. Plenty of people with children divorce. Though I guess you couldn't just leave a note and disappear.

My current plan is to remain honest with him about how I am feeling for a month or two (I have some logistical reasons). If I decide I definitely want out, I think I will find a place and not tell him I am physically separating until the minute I am ready to do it. I knew I should have done that originally but I couldn't carry the weight of it long enough to actually do that.


----------



## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> Why do we cling on to these third rate relationships?


Fear of the unknown being no better? Comfort? Guilt? Obligation? Not *enough* pain?

Probably the same reasons people stay in jobs they hate.


----------



## Openminded

IMO it's primarily fear of the unknown, and also guilt, that keep people in place (all other things being equal). It takes energy to get out of a marriage and it's often just easier to stay in limbo with the known than deal with the unknown. My only regret is not divorcing much sooner than I did because I obviously can't get those lost decades back. At least I didn't stay in it until the bitter end which is what I always planned on doing (back when I thought divorce was the ultimate selfish thing to do). But I finally realized I could be happy or I could be married but I couldn't have both with the situation I was dealing with. After a very long time, after I had tried everything I could think of, I finally chose to be happy. 

That may be your story too in another six months. Time will tell.


----------



## SunCMars

I had a whole lot of comments that I was going to rattle off.

Stinkin' others beat me to it.

One main issue not mentioned is his health.

He is starting to deteriorate. The auto immune disease. He now has no immunity from prosecution or persecution from past bad behavior.

Yes, you are his meal ticket. But you are more than that.

You are his wife and only caretaker.

You are his foundation. The one that he allowed [facilitated] to crumble.
..........................................................................................................................................
Your statement: You married him against your better judgement, you did not have passion for him...that is ALL on you.

You botched up by settling for him. 

To me, this sounds like you are justifying to yourself and us for dumping him. Coming up with reasons why he has to go.
..........................................................................................................................................
You tried, He came up short. That is all you need to say.

Leave him, but not in anger.


----------



## sokillme

MrRight said:


> Op - you probably have the same issue as me - as confirmed during my psychotherapy sessions pre-marriage.
> 
> cant make endings! a big big issue.
> 
> 
> why not leave him a note and just vanish. save your life - imagine someone is pointing a gun at you and just run - it's that serious - he's killing your life and you allow it.
> 
> no kids? I would be off like a shot if I had no child. As it is I have to sit it out.


This is absoultly NOT a healthy way to make an ending. Adults don't just vanish. They say why they are leaving and the leave in a normal healthy way. In OP's case she should make plan have a date and move out if and when the time comes. To do anything less is to show a lack of strength. It shows a lack of conviction, and is frankly an awful thing to do to a person you have been married to. At the very least everything should be upfront so there is no surprises. The only time to vanish is when someone is continuing to abuse you. At this point the guy is trying it just may be too late.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> I think I will find a place and not tell him I am physically separating until the minute I am ready to do it.


Like I said the the other poster when you are ready why not just find a place and set a date. It can be in a few days, I don't understand this idea of, here one day gone the next. You are going to have a lot of logistical things you are going to have to deal with anyway better to make the separation a natural progression. This will also help him get used to the idea. Yes, this will be harder on you but it's a kind way to do it and an honorable way. We are talking a few more days again. Giving up a few days as to not traumatize another human being even if this one has been a leach is worth it in my opinion.


----------



## WorkingWife

sokillme said:


> Like I said the the other poster when you are ready why not just find a place and set a date. It can be in a few days, I don't understand this idea of, here one day gone the next. You are going to have a lot of logistical things you are going to have to deal with anyway better to make the separation a natural progression. This will also help him get used to the idea. Yes, this will be harder on you but it's a kind way to do it and an honorable way. We are talking a few more days again. Giving up a few days as to not traumatize another human being even if this one has been a leach is worth it in my opinion.


The reason I might not do that is because he is very good at talking me out of my true feelings/desires. I literally may not have the strength to actually separate if I tell him a few days in advance. Regardless, I told him I'd give him a month or two, so I can keep evaluating him and how I feel and considering how I could move out if necessary. I just don't want him thinking everything is okay just because I'm not constantly saying that every time he hugs me, holds my hand, or spends time with me. 

A few minutes ago he told me that he feels his change is very easy, like who he is being now is the person he always was, he just had too many things holding him back emotionally. He seems to actually feel relieved. But again, it's only about 4 days so far. 

My step mom called today and he picked up the phone and chatted with her a couple minutes and told me it felt good, not like a burden. Before he would NEVER answer the phone if any of my friends or family called. He would just sit right beside it and shout to me that so and so was calling, and if I didn't get there in time, I could just call them back. 

If his change is permanent it will serve him well whether we stay together or not.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

> But then he said something that actually kind of creeped me out - he said he wants to be the one to make up for the last 20 years by making the next 20 wonderful, he is the only one who really knows the hell I've been through because of him." ???
> 
> I don't want to overanalyze every comment, obviously he is trying to keep me and will probably say a lot of things. The proof is in the pudding - how is his ongoing behavior and how do I truly feel about being with him. Do I feel genuinely adored? But anyhow - that, I caused this only I can fix it comment really creeped me out, like he's some hostage taker that hurt and neglected me, and now wants to be the hero to nurse me back to health. Is it me, or is that kind of a WTF? sentiment?


Yes, it is you over analyzing IMO. I am not saying it shouldn't bother you, but you stated he is poor at affection and he tried to say something affectionate, but your defense is at full attention. He's been complacent for two decades and he had to change nothing. He realized he screwed up, doesn't mean this will last, but doesn't know how to fix it. So, he says only he can do it because he is worried you'll find someone better who will. It was a poorly worded way of saying "Please let me try, don't find someone else."

Of course, I do not know the context of your conversation, but I do not see creepiness I see a dude grasping for straws.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> The reason I might not do that is because he is very good at talking me out of my true feelings/desires. I literally may not have the strength to actually separate if I tell him a few days in advance. Regardless, I told him I'd give him a month or two, so I can keep evaluating him and how I feel and considering how I could move out if necessary. I just don't want him thinking everything is okay just because I'm not constantly saying that every time he hugs me, holds my hand, or spends time with me.
> 
> A few minutes ago he told me that he feels his change is very easy, like who he is being now is the person he always was, he just had too many things holding him back emotionally. He seems to actually feel relieved. But again, it's only about 4 days so far.
> 
> My step mom called today and he picked up the phone and chatted with her a couple minutes and told me it felt good, not like a burden. Before he would NEVER answer the phone if any of my friends or family called. He would just sit right beside it and shout to me that so and so was calling, and if I didn't get there in time, I could just call them back.
> 
> If his change is permanent it will serve him well whether we stay together or not.


If you run away and not leave with conviction then you will never be strong enough to have a healthy relationship in the future. You are somewhat codependent, you have been afraid to give true consequences until now, that actually hurt you. In some of my other posts, I pointed out to you that this is very important to a healthy relationship. If you had given consequences earlier you both may have dealt with these problems and had a healthy relationship right now, without all the water under the bridge. I am not saying that to shame or convict you, I am showing you that this behavior of not confronting your problems, because of fear, is a big reason you are in the situation you are in, and you NEED to change it. 

WW, it's time to stop this behavior, start doing it now (if you leave), it will be a good behavior foundation to build your next relationship on. If you decided you want to leave, then do it with conviction, don't run away because you feel guilt. Now is the time. You have already started to grown and you see it has paid off for you. 

Besides all that it is the honorable thing to do, having someone tell you at the last minute "I'm gone" and then walking out, makes it much more painful then "I have gotten my apartment and plan on moving out next Monday." It may seem like a small trivial thing, but allowing the person who is being broken up with, to have some extra dignity says a lot about the type of person doing the breaking in my opinion. Again and it will make YOU stronger and more firm in your stance. 

Say you do leave, he will just show up anyway and try to convince you. At least if you tell him ahead of time you will have that all out of the way by the time you start fresh.


----------



## Thound

Does he really love you, or is he afraid the wheels are coming off on the gravy train?


----------



## MrRight

sokillme said:


> *This is absoultly NOT a healthy way to make an ending.* Adults don't just vanish. They say why they are leaving and the leave in a normal healthy way. In OP's case she should make plan have a date and move out if and when the time comes. To do anything less is to show a lack of strength. It shows a lack of conviction, and is frankly an awful thing to do to a person you have been married to. At the very least everything should be upfront so there is no surprises. The only time to vanish is when someone is continuing to abuse you. At this point the guy is trying it just may be too late.


It's not ideal.

but what is it like living in a house with someone you have told you want a divorce and they dont?

probably not that good.

and if there is no other way - if every time she wants to leave he keeps talking her out of it

what then?

looks like he has been master at wearing her down to his will. the only cure for that is distance, whatever it takes.

ok get a suitcase out tell him and go. and if you find you cant do that then just go.


----------



## JohnA

It sounds like this is a marriage of one: for him, by him, and about him.


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## MrRight

Of course, OP - as I understand you have been the money earner.

everything in the house/flat is yours perhaps - maybe even the property itself, unless it is rented.

what a headache - it's him that should go not you.

do you own the property? paying a mortgage?


----------



## Thound

TheRealMcCoy said:


> If both genders could come to an agreement on how this dynamic works while it's still early and fixable, problem marriages would be reduced by 50%. MINIMUM.
> 
> However, we get this instead:
> 
> 
> A member for four years with over 6000 posts, ostensibly to help people, had THIS to say:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this, after a gentle urging to "wait it out"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because he's a horrible monster, get it?
> 
> 
> No explanations needed here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And from the OP herself:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I see the cowboys got you all riled up with this stuff. You now sound confident as ever. YEEEEE-HA!
> 
> And that's good. Because you do need to leave him. For HIM, not you. He needs to start his life over. You can help him do that.
> 
> 
> So ends Part I on how to fix this dynamic: "Men are idiots." Coming soon, Part II: "This one was ALL WorkingWife's fault (So hold your bravado for a sec.)".
> 
> It's a working title. I'll fix it before my next post.
> 
> I see some glimmers of hope in this thread. TINY glimmers that make me think we may be able to get somewhere. But then I read over all of those quotes above and shake my head.


Bitter much?
Did you not read where she has telling him for years she was not happy, and he needed to make changes? He only decided to take action when she said she wanted a divorce. He sounds a lot like me 15 years ago.


----------



## MrRight

"And that's good. Because you do need to leave him. For HIM, not you. He needs to start his life over. You can help him do that."

Reverse psychology?

But he wouldnt agree with your statement - "needs to start his life over" - though it's as true for him as it is for my own wife - who I want to leave.

How do you think the OP can make her husband understand splitting up is as much for him as for her?


----------



## sokillme

WW how is it going?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thound said:


> Bitter much?
> Did you not read where she has telling him for years she was not happy, and he needed to make changes? He only decided to take action when she said she wanted a divorce. He sounds a lot like me 15 years ago.


LOL. This isn't what he was drawing attention to in his post.


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## Thound

phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. This isn't what he was drawing attention to in his post.


My sincere apologies then. I'm old.


----------



## RoseAglow

Working Wife, since you like MB and your H now says he is willing to work their program, I suggest that you write to Dr. Harley. If you don't know the address, you can find it on their website under the Radio tab. Send an email, maybe copy the opening post here with details added.

Dr. Harley and his wife are very friendly and easy to talk to. If they choose your letter, they will speak with you and your husband on their internet radio program. Or, if you don't want to be on the radio, they will speak with you and your husband off the radio then read your letter and discuss it. They will speak with you individually as well, and once you're on their show, you can reach out to them in the future for advice. 

Dr. Harley is usually very quick to pick up on whether or not the spouse is serious and he gives recommendations on the signs to watch. He is not shy about giving his honest opinion, especially when he doesn't feel that the spouse is serious. I've heard him tell many women that her best bet is to separate and watch the husband over a long period of time to see if the changes are real and long-lasting. 

Speaking with him is free of charge. Just another option to consider.


----------



## chillymorn69

Hmm,

If you really don't love him then put your walking boots on and apoligise for not leaving sooner. But don't be surprised if you don't find the night in shinning armor your looking for.

It seems your mind is made up. I say don't give false hope! Just move on.


----------



## WorkingWife

TheRealMcCoy said:


> If both genders could come to an agreement on how this dynamic works while it's still early and fixable, problem marriages would be reduced by 50%. MINIMUM.
> 
> However, we get this instead:
> ...
> 
> And I see the cowboys got you all riled up with this stuff. You now sound confident as ever. YEEEEE-HA!
> 
> And that's good. Because you do need to leave him. For HIM, not you. He needs to start his life over. You can help him do that.
> 
> So ends Part I on how to fix this dynamic: "Men are idiots." Coming soon, Part II: "This one was ALL WorkingWife's fault (So hold your bravado for a sec.)".
> 
> It's a working title. I'll fix it before my next post.
> 
> I see some glimmers of hope in this thread. TINY glimmers that make me think we may be able to get somewhere. But then I read over all of those quotes above and shake my head.


I understand you are coming from a perspective where it sound like you didn't treat your wife well, she tried to tell you, you dismissed her complaints, and now it's too late for her. But instead of divorcing and starting over with another woman, you are staying with her, ostensibly for your children. First if you are this bitter and judgmental in your general personality, it would probably be much better for your children if you divorced where you didn't have the constant reminder of some woman who will never love you in your face.

You keep telling me to leave him for HIS sake, but it feels more like you are replacing he and I with you and your wife in your mind. You sound bitter that she didn't sever things since she made it clear she does not love you. I would like to encourage you to get out of your situation for your own sake.

As far as the advice of people getting me all riled up - don't worry about it. I understand I'm posting on a public forum and I will get advice from many different angles, and I try to keep all advice, including yours and including my own thoughts and feelings right now, in perspective. No one here can ever know the whole story, but I am so grateful that I can put it out there and get other people's perspectives, because I lost mine years ago.

When I read other people's posts I feel very clear on the situation. Not so with my own. I feel weak and guilty and indecisive and trapped.

As for your post to come on how this is All Working Wife's fault -- This is not ALL either of our's fault. He used me and I let him. Had he not used me, I'd be a happy wife today. Had I not let him, he'd either be gone or be a productive, much happier man today. We are both to blame. 

But understand this - *I *am not *your *wife. For one, I would never sit there flipping channels and acting annoyed when my husband is trying to be nice to me. And I would never base my decision on one "slip up" - I don't expect perfection from anyone. And if I do decide to stay, I will put my all into it. 

The reality though is that when I think of trying to make this work instead of getting out, I don't feel hopeful, I feel panic in my chest, like I am going to have an anxiety attack. And while I am trying to be level headed about this, I think I do need to pay attention to that.


----------



## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> Of course, OP - as I understand you have been the money earner.
> 
> everything in the house/flat is yours perhaps - maybe even the property itself, unless it is rented.
> 
> what a headache - it's him that should go not you.
> 
> do you own the property? paying a mortgage?


No, we rent - $2500 a month... Most of what we own is marital property at this point, and while it adds up to a lot, there are only a few things of value. No savings either. Ugggghhhh.

Everyone says he should go, but the truth is, I actually want to go. I would personally prefer to find a place I can afford for just myself. My only concern is a place that can accept my dogs if I get all three.

If/when I leave I still have to pay all the bills, but I can give our land lord 30 days notice on this place and then my H will have to take over that payment (he can't right now) or also move to something he can afford. This is another reason I want to get him being productive before I move. Right now he has 0 income without me and separating won't make things cheaper. I still have to pay all our bills like life insurance, health insurance, etc. until there is a divorce and settlement.


----------



## WorkingWife

Thank you, I think I will do that.

I actually have a letter I started to Dr. Harley months ago, that I started revising recently.

The resistance I am feeling to this is that deep in my heart I just want OUT and I am afraid the Harleys will convince me to give him another chance. He is doing everything nice and right now. Very thoughtful, trying to spend time with me, doing all he can to work, etc. 

I look at his core personality though and I just feel panicked at the thought of staying with him the rest of my life. My brain is trying to talk me into giving it a chance, but ever cell in my body seems to be screaming "This is your chance. RUN."

I tried to break up with him when we were dating a couple times, and he kind of did what he is doing now (not as good because we didn't know MB and I didn't understand what was missing for me). But anyhow, I felt at that time that I liked him and cared for him but was so frustrated tying to be happy in a relationship with him and that I could find a better fit for me, but I felt so bad for him and it was just EASIER to stay. It's not like he's alcoholic or beats me or fights with me all the time... Then a week became a month became a year and suddenly I'm in my 50's and becoming very regretful and bitter.

Now I told him I want a divorce and he is changing, but I am afraid of just falling back into "I'm not really *un*happy" and wasting the rest of my life.

Maybe I will write the Harleys though. It's not like they can come through the phone and force me to do something. I do respect their advice. I just feel like falling back in love with my H is not in my best interest.




RoseAglow said:


> Working Wife, since you like MB and your H now says he is willing to work their program, I suggest that you write to Dr. Harley. If you don't know the address, you can find it on their website under the Radio tab. Send an email, maybe copy the opening post here with details added.
> 
> Dr. Harley and his wife are very friendly and easy to talk to. If they choose your letter, they will speak with you and your husband on their internet radio program. Or, if you don't want to be on the radio, they will speak with you and your husband off the radio then read your letter and discuss it. They will speak with you individually as well, and once you're on their show, you can reach out to them in the future for advice.
> 
> Dr. Harley is usually very quick to pick up on whether or not the spouse is serious and he gives recommendations on the signs to watch. He is not shy about giving his honest opinion, especially when he doesn't feel that the spouse is serious. I've heard him tell many women that her best bet is to separate and watch the husband over a long period of time to see if the changes are real and long-lasting.
> 
> Speaking with him is free of charge. Just another option to consider.


----------



## WorkingWife

Thound said:


> Bitter much?
> Did you not read where she has telling him for years she was not happy, and he needed to make changes? He only decided to take action when she said she wanted a divorce. He sounds a lot like me 15 years ago.


So what has happened with you in the last 15 years? It sounds like you have changed. Are you still with the person you were with 15 years ago?


----------



## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> "And that's good. Because you do need to leave him. For HIM, not you. He needs to start his life over. You can help him do that."
> 
> Reverse psychology?
> 
> But he wouldnt agree with your statement - "needs to start his life over" - though it's as true for him as it is for my own wife - who I want to leave.
> 
> How do you think the OP can make her husband understand splitting up is as much for him as for her?


We have both discussed that had I not enabled him, he would not be where he is today. He would have sorted things out. However he will not agree that my leaving him is good for him. Though I honestly think it would be. He insists he loves me more than anything but I honestly don't think it's true. I think he likes me very much and needs me but really has no idea what it is like to have a truly intimate relationship.

I do think leaving him may be the best thing that could happen to make his life better in the long run, but it sounds very self serving when I say that out loud. "You'll thank me for this someday..." Yeah, he's not going to buy that anytime soon. And the truth is while I DO think I'd be doing him a favor in the long run, the real reason I want out is because I think it's best for me.


----------



## MrRight

WorkingWife said:


> We have both discussed that had I not enabled him, he would not be where he is today. He would have sorted things out. However he will not agree that my leaving him is good for him. Though I honestly think it would be. He insists he loves me more than anything but I honestly don't think it's true. I think he likes me very much and needs me but really has no idea what it is like to have a truly intimate relationship.
> 
> I do think leaving him may be the best thing that could happen to make his life better in the long run, but it sounds very self serving when I say that out loud. "You'll thank me for this someday..." Yeah, he's not going to buy that anytime soon. And the truth is while I DO think I'd be doing him a favor in the long run, the real reason I want out is because I think it's best for me.


That all sounds reasonable. There is no reason, from what you say - to focus on his needs.

$2500 a month? wow - you are quite a catch if you can afford to cover that and then some.

At least you dont own. He's earning 0? Doesnt sound like has has much chance of taking over all the expenses but that's his look out.


----------



## TheRealMcCoy

Let me add one more.



WorkingWife said:


> He used me and I let him.



That's the attitude we need to get out of this discussion.

I'll get back to you.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> A few minutes ago he told me that he feels his change is very easy, like who he is being now is the person he always was, he just had too many things holding him back emotionally. He seems to actually feel relieved. But again, it's only about 4 days so far.
> 
> My step mom called today and he picked up the phone and chatted with her a couple minutes and told me it felt good, not like a burden. Before he would NEVER answer the phone if any of my friends or family called. He would just sit right beside it and shout to me that so and so was calling, and if I didn't get there in time, I could just call them back.
> 
> If his change is permanent it will serve him well whether we stay together or not.


Wow, its F-ing magic, right?? He is SO full of crap. THIS is who he always was?? REALLY?? Gee, so all that was holding him back was allowing his wife to be his meal ticket all these years... all she had to do was say she was leaving and POOF... the real him is here now! This post made me really, really angry. (I have dealt with this in my past, so I guess bull**** triggers me...) 

@WorkingWife... I can tell by reading your responses that you are done here, but your guilt is keeping you there. All for HIS sake. He is a grown man. If you want out then get out, he will have to take responsibility for himself just like the rest of us adults in the real world have to do. That is not your problem. The only thing you may want to get squared away is finding out about getting him on disability, whether or not that is possible. (I dont think he will qualify, because he is capable of working...but it cant hurt to check )


----------



## Thound

WorkingWife said:


> So what has happened with you in the last 15 years? It sounds like you have changed. Are you still with the person you were with 15 years ago?


Basically I grew up and started doing the things I needed to do. Yes we are still together. Best of roomates.


----------



## jld

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you, I think I will do that.
> 
> I actually have a letter I started to Dr. Harley months ago, that I started revising recently.
> 
> The resistance I am feeling to this is that deep in my heart I just want OUT and I am afraid the Harleys will convince me to give him another chance. He is doing everything nice and right now. Very thoughtful, trying to spend time with me, doing all he can to work, etc.
> 
> *I look at his core personality though and I just feel panicked at the thought of staying with him the rest of my life. My brain is trying to talk me into giving it a chance, but ever cell in my body seems to be screaming "This is your chance. RUN."*
> 
> I tried to break up with him when we were dating a couple times, and he kind of did what he is doing now (not as good because we didn't know MB and I didn't understand what was missing for me). But anyhow, I felt at that time that I liked him and cared for him but was so frustrated tying to be happy in a relationship with him and that I could find a better fit for me, but I felt so bad for him and it was just EASIER to stay. It's not like he's alcoholic or beats me or fights with me all the time... Then a week became a month became a year and suddenly I'm in my 50's and becoming very regretful and bitter.
> 
> Now I told him I want a divorce and he is changing, but I am afraid of just falling back into "I'm not really *un*happy" and wasting the rest of my life.
> 
> Maybe I will write the Harleys though. It's not like they can come through the phone and force me to do something. I do respect their advice. I just feel like falling back in love with my H is not in my best interest.


I feel so sad for you when I read the bolded. 

Please listen to what your gut is desperately trying to tell you.


----------



## Openminded

I stayed in a marriage that didn't work for decades longer than I should have. Why? Because I *wished* and *hoped* my husband would change. Did he? No. Who is it on that I stayed? Me. He never grew up -- not even close -- and I was a world-class enabler. As he often reminded me, no one forced me to marry him. I did that all on my own and I lived to deeply regret it. 

Your husband may or may not permanently change. Only time will tell. But when women fall out of love it's often very difficult -- and sometimes impossible -- for us to get that back even when we want to. Some of us try and try and try to make our marriages work before we finally give up on them. We one day reach a point where we are done and have to get out. You may have reached that point now (or perhaps not just yet) but the day I realized I would be better off without him than I was with him was the day I was finally done and there was no turning back after that. He promised the moon then but I couldn't have cared less. I just wanted out.


----------



## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> That all sounds reasonable. There is no reason, from what you say - to focus on his needs.
> 
> $2500 a month? wow - you are quite a catch if you can afford to cover that and then some.
> 
> At least you dont own. He's earning 0? Doesnt sound like has has much chance of taking over all the expenses but that's his look out.



Yeah - According to Zillow, our rent should actually be $3,100. We live in Southern Ca, in a middle-class house (2,000 square feet) That is one of my issues, I've wanted out of Southern CA for years and I definitely never wanted to be in this nice a house when we couldn't even afford to buy. It's no luxury home but we could have gotten something cheaper even in So Cal. 

I have been a total workaholic with no life just to keep up with our bills and his spending. He has had his "standards" that are very different from mine, but I have been paying for them for years and constantly telling him I don't want any of this but every penny I earn is going to just staying afloat. 
I've been complaining, but still doing it. 

When I showed him a home we could afford to buy his horrified response was always that it was too old, too small, a dump.

The day I told him I want a divorce he said he'll move _*anywhere *_with me, that he'd already been thinking that way, he's ready to move now, etc. He said I shook him to his core and he is freed of the burden of being selfish and feeling a need to impress others now. (Paraphrasing, he didn't sound that ridiculous.) 

And he really does seem less uptight. He actually let me take his picture the other day - something he would never do because he is not photogenic. So we have very few pictures. I digress. Anyhow, he really does seem better but I just feel panicked at the idea of staying with him, and manipulated by his niceness - like "You can't leave me because I'm fixing everything you complained about."


----------



## WorkingWife

3Xnocharm said:


> Wow, its F-ing magic, right?? He is SO full of crap. THIS is who he always was?? REALLY?? Gee, so all that was holding him back was allowing his wife to be his meal ticket all these years... all she had to do was say she was leaving and POOF... the real him is here now! This post made me really, really angry. (I have dealt with this in my past, so I guess bull**** triggers me...)


Well, when you put it that way...

This is the value of these forums to me. I feel so much more clear when I actually start putting it into words. And even more clear when I read someone else rephrasing it.




3Xnocharm said:


> @WorkingWife... I can tell by reading your responses that you are done here, but your guilt is keeping you there. All for HIS sake. He is a grown man. If you want out then get out, he will have to take responsibility for himself just like the rest of us adults in the real world have to do. That is not your problem. The only thing you may want to get squared away is finding out about getting him on disability, whether or not that is possible. (I don't think he will qualify, because he is capable of working...but it cant hurt to check )


[/QUOTE]

I dont' think he will either, but even if he does, it will take some time.


----------



## WorkingWife

Openminded said:


> ...but the day I realized I would be better off without him than I was with him was the day I was finally done and there was no turning back after that. He promised the moon then but I couldn't have cared less. I just wanted out.


At that point, after enabling him for so long, when you just wanted out, and he was promising the moon -- was it hard for you to leave him? Not hard to be without him, but did you feel guilty like it pained you to hurt him?


----------



## Openminded

WorkingWife said:


> At that point, after enabling him for so long, when you just wanted out, and he was promising the moon -- was it hard for you to leave him? Not hard to be without him, but did you feel guilty like it pained you to hurt him?


Not at all (which is why I don't think you're there yet).


----------



## Satya

So what's your plan, @WorkingWife? Are there some end-date or by-date goals on the horizon? If not, you need to keep in action or you'll remain stagnant and depressed.


----------



## MJJEAN

My laptop died. Hard drive failure. My tablet was the victim of a tragic soup accident. I'm on my phone. I hate using the phone to post, so this will be bare bones.

Don't wait for him to get disability. Literally, that could take years. He will apply, be denied, do rounds of doctor visits for tests and then likely be denied again before having to get a lawyer and take it to court. Even then he may be denied. By the time the process is complete, he'd be entitled to more alimony and more of the business.

The Dr Harley thing sounds nice, but why bother? You aren't in love with your husband and it sounds like you never really were. You can't get back what was never there in the first place.

Yes, it's all panic manipulation because he needs your income. Of course he's willing to move and live a bit more frugally. It's either live more modestly on your income or get an income of his own.

I'm firmly in the leave camp.


----------



## MrRight

WorkingWife said:


> Yeah - According to Zillow, our rent should actually be $3,100. We live in Southern Ca, in a middle-class house (2,000 square feet) That is one of my issues, I've wanted out of Southern CA for years and I definitely never wanted to be in this nice a house when we couldn't even afford to buy. It's no luxury home but we could have gotten something cheaper even in So Cal.
> 
> I have been a total workaholic with no life just to keep up with our bills and his spending. He has had his "standards" that are very different from mine, but I have been paying for them for years and constantly telling him I don't want any of this but every penny I earn is going to just staying afloat.
> I've been complaining, but still doing it.
> 
> When I showed him a home we could afford to buy his horrified response was always that it was too old, too small, a dump.
> 
> The day I told him I want a divorce he said he'll move _*anywhere *_with me, that he'd already been thinking that way, he's ready to move now, etc. He said I shook him to his core and he is freed of the burden of being selfish and feeling a need to impress others now. (Paraphrasing, he didn't sound that ridiculous.)
> 
> And he really does seem less uptight. He actually let me take his picture the other day - something he would never do because he is not photogenic. So we have very few pictures. I digress. Anyhow, he really does seem better but I just feel panicked at the idea of staying with him, and manipulated by his niceness - like "You can't leave me because I'm fixing everything you complained about."


why on earth do you need 2000 sq feet? We live in a house a fraction of that size.

doesnt want to live in a dump? and you pandered to that attitude when you are the one who earns all the money? Jeez.

you dont have many pictures of him - that says it all. when you love someone and live as a couple - you should have thousands of photos.
not photogenic? I can imagine.

You need an escape plan. This relationship is too one sided to be worth saving. 
You also have nothing to feel guilty about.


----------



## jld

TheRealMcCoy said:


> Why are my posts getting deleted? It's OK to say "YOU GO GIRL" to WorkingWife, but if I criticize her I get my opinion deleted? What kind of a forum is this?


Maybe learn to say it more diplomatically?


----------



## lifeistooshort

So if your hb is to be believed this is who he really is, meaning that he went out of his way to treat you like crap and let you support him while he watched ball games?

So which is it? Is he naturally a rude guy who won't work or did he make the decision to be a rude guy who won't work?


----------



## sokillme

WW sounds like not much is changing in your mind. It's OK if there is too much water under the bridge. Make sure he is aware of that and when you start to really detach do so by being honest about it. Give him the ability to have dignity even if he doesn't take it. Let him know he needs to start looking for a place. Let him know at some point there is no hope. I suspect though he will go back to he actual self so don't do that until all your ducks are in a row. I assume you don't plan to let live him on the street until he can get his feet under him. Make sure you have retained an attorney by then so you don't make any legal mistakes.


----------



## MJJEAN

lifeistooshort said:


> So if your hb is to be believed this is who he really is, meaning that he went out of his way to treat you like crap and let you support him while he watched ball games?
> 
> So which is it? Is he naturally a rude guy who won't work or did he make the decision to be a rude guy who won't work?


 I think I love you and I don't even remember which gender you are at the moment.


----------



## Elizabeth001

MJJEAN said:


> I think I love you and I don't even remember which gender you are at the moment.




Gender schmender. Love is love 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort

MJJEAN said:


> I think I love you and I don't even remember which gender you are at the moment.


Aww, you flatter me 

I'm a woman, but like Elizabeth said, love is love!


----------



## MattMatt

MJJEAN said:


> I think I love you and I don't even remember which gender you are at the moment.


Just check out the hairstyle for confirmation!


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## Elizabeth001

She's not responsible for his childhood. 


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## Rooster2015

When I got a divorce from my first wife my passion was gone. Counseling was not an option because I was no longer attracted to my wife. We passed each other in the hallway at best. So I feel your pain. I did this at 57 years old. I'm remarried to a beautiful women who is my best friend now. I wouldn't trade her for the world. Although it cost me I have never looked back. I feel like the happiest man alive.


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## Elizabeth001

TAM2013 said:


> If OP was a man, he'd have been torn apart for complaining he's got to split his assets when leaving his ill wife.
> 
> 
> 
> Another flagrant display of misandry tolerated by TAM.




I can't agree. I cannot speak for the masses but I would have responded the same if it were a man. 

Although ...if it were a man, I might have messaged him privately to tell him when he dumps that POS, let's hook up! 


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## MJJEAN

TAM2013 said:


> If OP was a man, he'd have been torn apart for complaining he's got to split his assets when leaving his ill wife.
> 
> Another flagrant display of misandry tolerated by TAM.


Nope. I'd say the same if genders were reversed. He hasn't worked, he isn't at home caring for kids and taking care of housework and the thousand details of family life, and his illness seems to be migraine headaches and some undiagnosed random aches and pains. Considering how many people I know who go to work with severe, provable, disabilities, I can't feel sorry for him.


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## Elizabeth001

MJJEAN said:


> Nope. I'd say the same if genders were reversed. He hasn't worked, he isn't at home caring for kids and taking care of housework and the thousand details of family life, and his illness seems to be migraine headaches and some undiagnosed random aches and pains. Considering how many people I know who go to work with severe, provable, disabilities, I can't feel sorry for him.




Truth. I worked at a rehab facility years ago. A coworker of mine was confined to a wheelchair and asked me if I minded to stop and give him a ride to and from work on miscellaneous days. It wasn't easy or fun to load up his wheelchair in the back of my little pickup but his drive to contribute blew me away. 


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## EleGirl

Elizabeth001 said:


> I can't agree. I cannot speak for the masses but I would have responded the same if it were a man.
> 
> Although ...if it were a man, I might have messaged him privately to tell him when he dumps that POS, *let's hook up! *


Really?


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## Elizabeth001

EleGirl said:


> Really?




Ok...said in jest but after a couple of dates and a glass of wine? Probably. After all...we sure would have a lot in common 


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## Elizabeth001

Oh wait...the gender thing? Oh hell yes definitely. I was taught to pull my own weight. I have no sympathies for this man. He sounds like a master manipulator and she seems easily manipulated. BTDT Good and honest people are easy to manipulate. We tend to expect the same from others, especially if we are emotionally connected to them. 

ETA: and fall under the category of caretaker. Which is what I see here. The dynamic of the relationship is mother/son, not husband/wife. 

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## MJJEAN

Elizabeth001 said:


> Truth. I worked at a rehab facility years ago. A coworker of mine was confined to a wheelchair and asked me if I minded to stop and give him a ride to and from work on miscellaneous days. It wasn't easy or fun to load up his wheelchair in the back of my little pickup but his drive to contribute blew me away.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My mother was in a wheelchair. Before I was born she worked as an accountant. She was SAHM to 3 kids after that.


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## RoseAglow

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you, I think I will do that.
> 
> I actually have a letter I started to Dr. Harley months ago, that I started revising recently.
> 
> The resistance I am feeling to this is that deep in my heart I just want OUT and I am afraid the Harleys will convince me to give him another chance. He is doing everything nice and right now. Very thoughtful, trying to spend time with me, doing all he can to work, etc.
> 
> I look at his core personality though and I just feel panicked at the thought of staying with him the rest of my life. My brain is trying to talk me into giving it a chance, but ever cell in my body seems to be screaming "This is your chance. RUN."


I'm not so sure that they will tell you to stay. As you know, they are not "marriage at all costs" or even "marriage as long as there is no abuse, infidelity, or addiction." Rather, they are all about staying as long as each partner meets the other's emotional needs. And per their program, men need to be able to provide financial support, to whatever extent the wife requires it. Your husband has failed to meet this need for 20 years and has now left you in a precarious financial situation.

They will support your desire for him to work, and this doesn't mean him working to help market your product. I believe they will try to impress upon him the need for him to get an independent job, a job that doesn't depend on you. He can meet the other needs but until he gets to the biggest one for you, which right now is Financial Support, it's going nowhere. It has been 20 long years! The job is going to be the tell.

I've yet to hear them recommend that anyone- husband or wife, wayward or betrayed- stay in a dangerous financial situation. They will not tell you to keep going this way. 

I think it's likely that they will tell you to stay only for as long as it takes to your ducks in a row (lawyer, apartment found, etc.) and then separate. Your husband can get a job and demonstrate that he is serious. MB usually recommends that a separation for this kind of thing last a long time- up to a year- until the H demonstrates that the changes are real. You can read "When to Call It Quits" on their website and you will see that they routinely recommend yearish-long separation for women in situations like yours (no abuse/infidelity/addiction but spouse refuses to meet Emotional Needs.) 

They also believe that often, it does take a separation to wake up the other spouse when it comes to Emotional Needs. It's a very risky move, but you are already heading for a divorce. 

So let's say that you file for divorce to protect yourself financially and move out. You can sit on the divorce for a time, waiting to see if he really steps up. If he does, then you can decide what you want, but you will already be independent. You have time and space to make a decision truly based on what YOU want. If you decide to stay, you can go from there. After all, if your husband's changes are real and long-lasting, then the best case situation is that you stay together. But this is only true if he does step up and make long-lasting changes. If he is on his own for a year, gets and keeps a good job without complaining all the time, gets it together, and keeps it together, then you'll have a decision to make. You'll have already been making your own independent life and it's not a loss to wait, as long as you are financially protected. If he can't keep up the changes, or just doesn't get a decent job, or he does step up by you are not willing to go back, then you are already on your own, you already have the papers filed, and you can move on knowing you tried. 

I strongly think this is the advice Dr. Harley would give you. It is consistent with his program.

Of course, you can go ahead and do this on your own, you don't need to speak to MB to do anything. However, I recommend it because it's clear your value their system, I think it will give you more confidence.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best (and your H, too. I hope he does make positive changes, whether or not you stay.)


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## WorkingWife

Satya said:


> So what's your plan, @WorkingWife? Are there some end-date or by-date goals on the horizon? If not, you need to keep in action or you'll remain stagnant and depressed.


Thanks. I don't have hard dates yet but I think that is a good idea. I was also thinking I should start a journal, starting with the day I told him I want a divorce.He asked me for 60 days to change my mind. But I don't think I want to do that, other than it's convenient for my time table based on things I have going on with business.

I told him again this morning that I do not see this working out. It's not like I have a "do this and that then I'll be happy" list. That sparked another round of discussions on how changed he is and how he's going to win me back and he just knows it can work out and all kinds of marriages go through this kind of feeling (me not loving him) and get the feeling back... 

He did at least say that he does not want me to stay just because I feel bad for him.

Now he is saying how serious he is about having foster kids. We never had kids and we both wanted to adopt from the foster system, but we spent over 10 years "getting qualified" because he never felt good when it was time for a class. (Though he somehow always felt good enough to go to ball games that were important to him up until a year ago.)

Now he is saying how he really really still wants to have the kids and he's crying a little saying how good a mother I would be and he knows he would be a great dad and he thinks about it all the time. That one does get me because I really want to do that but the odds of my meeting someone else my age who wants to do it with me are not great, and doing it alone would be very hard. But he's been stringing me along on this for over 10 years.

His "awakening" does seem genuine in that he really seems happy to do things now that before he wouldn't do - like walk the dogs and eat dinner together. And I have moments where I think - what am I doing? if he's willing to relax and be happy... But overall I just have a bad feeling when I think about staying. (I told him that today.)


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## jld

I really would not bring foster kids into this situation.

I would follow your gut and leave.


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## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> why on earth do you need 2000 sq feet? We live in a house a fraction of that size.
> 
> doesnt want to live in a dump? and you pandered to that attitude when you are the one who earns all the money? Jeez.
> 
> you dont have many pictures of him - that says it all. when you love someone and live as a couple - you should have thousands of photos.
> not photogenic? I can imagine.
> 
> You need an escape plan. This relationship is too one sided to be worth saving.
> You also have nothing to feel guilty about.


Thank you.

We "needed" 2,000 square feet because we're both self employed (though only one of us worked in the past...) and we each needed a home office. Plus we have been planning to get foster kids for over 10 years now, so we needed a bedroom for them. (It's a 4 bedroom house.) That was the reason he gave, but I believe nothing else was good enough for him. He would not even consider a 2 story house where there is another 2 story house on the other side of the back yard fence because they can see into your yard and you have no privacy... sigh.

I feel so pathetic that I went along with all this. 

Now he is saying he can't explain the selfish things he has done, other than that he thought we were this great couple in the eyes of all our friends and he knew neither of us would ever cheat and so he just wasn't worried about our marriage and he felt bad about himself for a few reasons (I know this is true) and he just behaved that way and and I was so sweet and put up with it and he just got stuck in that selfish rut/mode.

I told a good friend who knows and likes him about his "awakening/evolution" and she said good, that he can be that better person for the next woman but she really thinks he controls me and she hopes I get out for my sake. Sigh.


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## WorkingWife

Thound said:


> Basically I grew up and started doing the things I needed to do. Yes we are still together. *Best of roomates*.


Are you in love now? Are you glad you're together or do you feel like you both could have had more with someone else once you grew up?


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## WorkingWife

jld said:


> Maybe learn to say it more diplomatically?


I missed @TheRealMcCoy 's deleted post, so I don't know how harsh it was, but, for the record, I'm not going to be offended or wounded by anything he says. Hell, I survived with a guy using me while I worked myself silly for almost 20 years. I'm not going to wilt under the criticism of a guy who apparently did something similar to his own wife. I'm actually quite interested in his perspective since he knows the other side of this coin.


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## WorkingWife

RoseAglow said:


> ... So let's say that you file for divorce to protect yourself financially and move out. You can sit on the divorce for a time, waiting to see if he really steps up. If he does, then you can decide what you want, but you will already be independent. You have time and space to make a decision truly based on what YOU want. If you decide to stay, you can go from there. After all, if your husband's changes are real and long-lasting, then the best case situation is that you stay together. But this is only true if he does step up and make long-lasting changes. If he is on his own for a year, gets and keeps a good job without complaining all the time, gets it together, and keeps it together, then you'll have a decision to make. You'll have already been making your own independent life and it's not a loss to wait, as long as you are financially protected. If he can't keep up the changes, or just doesn't get a decent job, or he does step up by you are not willing to go back, then you are already on your own, you already have the papers filed, and you can move on knowing you tried. ...


Thank you. I was kind of thinking this too. The day after I told him I wanted a divorce and he begged for more time, I told him that I wanted a legal separation then to protect myself financially. He really balked at that, saying he knew things would work out and he just didn't ever want that in our history years down the road. Most of what he has said about changing feels sincere because of things I know about him, but that "i don't want this in our history" stuff sounded like pure BS to me. "I love you, I'd do anything for you, yes I'll start making money, but no we can't do a legal separation to protect you..."

The only thing that makes me hesitate - and I know this is not a good reason - but if I move out, he'll also have to move somewhere much cheaper as I don't have enough money to keep paying this rent plus more for me. That means getting rid of or storing furniture and gym equipment. Plus we have 3 dogs and I worry about being able to find places that will allow the dogs.

If someone else posted that as a reason to not separate though, I would definitely roll my eyes and shrug them off as a lost cause. It does help to put these thoughts in writing....


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## WorkingWife

MJJEAN said:


> I think I love you and I don't even remember which gender you are at the moment.


Gender is not a fixed thing. Haven't you gotten the memo? :wink2:


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## sokillme

It really is insulting that after some consequences he could just turn on a dime. It's also sad that he doesn't see how this just makes him look worse. He used you for 10 years and then in one epiphany he is a new man. I would call his bluff. "So all this time when you didn't do crap, you were capable you just didn't fell like it huh? What has changed now, accept me your meal ticket leaving? So it took me basically losing all love for you and dying to get away from you to get you to treat me with just a common level of partnership?" I doubt after a few of those exchanges he will be so puppy dog like, and that should help you detach.

In the beginning of these posts I felt some sympathy for him because he was disabled, but the way he switched on a dime just makes me thing he is just a leach. Do the honorable thing for you because if you don't you will feel guilty as you have said here. Give him some time to get on his feet. I'm talking weeks. Don't flaunt your new life in front of him. But I think his sudden transformation is more then enough proof that the whole marriage he was just using you. People with true disabilities don't just get better in a day. They may tough it out for a day or two but they are not capable of doing that for weeks on end. I think this guy is a con man, and he conned you. I suspect when he first met you he talked to you very similar to the way he is now. Once you dump him, he will be back working and looking for his next mark. In a year or two he will be living with some other women who supports him. 

This is why you should never let anyone take advantage of you. You should always call them out even if you love them.


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## lifeistooshort

WorkingWife said:


> I missed @TheRealMcCoy 's deleted post, so I don't know how harsh it was, but, for the record, I'm not going to be offended or wounded by anything he says. Hell, I survived with a guy using me while I worked myself silly for almost 20 years. I'm not going to wilt under the criticism of a guy who apparently did something similar to his own wife. I'm actually quite interested in his perspective since he knows the other side of this coin.



Speaking as a moderator: The post itself was rude and sarcastic which is why it was deleted. Posters are certainly free to disagree with you and provide constructive criticisms, but leave nasty attitudes and sarcasm out of it.

Now speaking as a poster:

He did make a point that in my view is not entirely incorrect.

The gist was that you did him no service by staying with him out of guilt, and if you'd dumped him years ago he might have had a better chance to put his life together. So in that sense you've contributed to his issues.

I think that has merit and I also think you know that.

The flaw in that logic is that it assumes that your husband is a child and you are the adult who owed it to him to steer him in the right direction like you'd do for a kid. Except that he's a grown man who shouldn't need his wife to tell him it's not ok to lay around and not work while she works herself to the bone, or that it's not ok to treat your wife poorly or get laughs at her expense.

If I saw my husband struggling to cover the financial responsibilities there's no way in hell I'd lay around the house and continue to demand more. Men who come on here and complain about such behavior in their wives are told they have spoiled, entitled princesses. Behavior like that is selfish no matter the gender.

It would be different if he'd been at home raising a family as a SAHD so you could pursue your career, but that's not what you've been dealing with. However, you did give tacit approval by going along with it, so for that you should pay alimony. CA will order it anyway, but even from a moral perspective you accepted responsibility for him in that sense.

But it doesn't obligate you to now spend the remainder of your years taking care of a bum who treated you poorly and refused to contribute until you told him you wanted out.....now all of a sudden he "gets it". What he gets is that he's going to have to support himself.

I'm not even suggesting that he doesn't love you to the extent he can, but he doesn't love you enough to not let you shoulder the financial burden while he continued to demand more.

If you had a guy that contributed what he could and got sick later that's completely different; it's crappy to dump someone who's been a good spouse once they're down. But that's not what you've got.

I'm a firm believer that people show you who they are when they think you're not looking or they think you aren't going anywhere. I don't treat my husband well because I'm afraid he'll dump me (though he might if I don't treat him well).....I do it because he's my husband and I love him. Someone who treats their spouse like crap until said spouse dumps them doesn't love them that much. Love is giving, not taking; in a mutually giving marriage both parties give and everyone is happy.

He's in panic mode right now because his life is about to fall apart, but make no mistake..... everything he's doing is ultimately about him.


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## WorkingWife

lifeistooshort said:


> So if your hb is to be believed this is who he really is, meaning that he went out of his way to treat you like crap and let you support him while he watched ball games?
> 
> So which is it? Is he naturally a rude guy who won't work or did he make the decision to be a rude guy who won't work?


It seems it came naturally. To be fair, here is his perspective:

He was raised in a household with an alcoholic father (who, ironically, also did not work and lived off his mom and bought so much junk they had to take seconds out on the house). I suspect he was always naturally image conscious and he was just horrified by his dad's drinking (he had to cancel a birthday party once when he was little 'cause his dad was falling down drunk, and every night in his room he could hear his dad open beer after beer all night long). 

He reacted to this by always pretending everything was great and always making jokes and hiding the truth about his father, and just staying in his room and seething most of the time he was home. He became an extremely private person. I always joked that the big secret about him was that there was no big secret because he was so secretive/private.

He left home and went to college but school had always been super easy and he's a MAJOR procrastinator and he dropped out of college while his friends all finished up. He got into business as an independent contractor for a company doing sales. So no sales, no money. He was doing really well but absolutely hated it, but felt - what else could he do? 

Then he met me. I had the biggest crush on him and just had to have him. (My friend said it was like I wanted to coax the bunny out of its hole. I guess I thought it was going to be a deep/soulful magic bunny or something -- but it turned out it was just your garden variety frightened rabbit hiding in a hole.) 

His business was starting to falter as we started dating. Mine was taking off. Before I knew it, we were totally entrenched in this codependent relationship. But in addition to the money thing, he was very emotionally shut down/stingy. There was literally no such thing as "intimate conversation" with him. He would NEVER be serious. Any question I asked, I got a joke of some sort as the answer. And I was the butt of his jokes at home all the time. 

So anyhow, he had this facade where he was always needing to appear successful and happy but inside he felt like crap. (I think that's where all the spending and needing nice things came from.) And he was very judgmental of other people, maybe to cover for feeling bad about himself? 

I found MarriageBuilders a few years ago and while he would not do it, he really DID start getting much better - not insulting me with jokes constantly, being more thoughtful, etc. but still being selfish and not working.

NOW when I asked for a divorce he said it rocked his world. He claims he just suddenly woke up and realized what an ass he's been and how he's had this need to make appearances to everyone else and constantly be "on" all the time, and he feels like that is just GONE. It's only been a few days but in his behavior he has seemed genuinely relaxed and less inhibited and he's not making jokes all the time non stop.

One example - I've been in 2 bad car accidents where I was the passenger. I am not a good passenger, very jumpy. He is a very skilled driver but very assertive - not an ******* like cutting other off, but he'll get within inches of cars changing lanes, and he hates traffic and gets all uptight. if I got nervous in the car and gasped or clutched the handle, he would take it personally like I don't trust him, get angry and drive even more riskily. Tell me to shut my eyes or read my kindle. This ended in tears more than once. He claimed I was making him nervous by my reactions. I told him my panic was real and involuntary and why couldn't his reaction be to want to slow down a little so I felt safe? Why was he taking my fear as an affront to his driving/manhood?

Well, since the "i want a divorce" day, I've ridden in the care with him about 4 times and I didn't think anything but he asked me "How was my driving?" and I realized I was not nervous at all. He said he felt relaxed and not needing to rush and be edgy any more. 

I don't know if his change will be lasting or not, but he does seem much happier and more relaxed, and feels good that he's working.

I have not magically fallen back in love with him though...


----------



## Openminded

By the time I decided I was done, decades had slipped away. I can't believe how long I struggled to make my marriage work. But it just didn't. My ex-husband was great with promises -- not so great with the real change I needed to see. What he did very well was convince me to keep trying. And I always wanted to believe him. That's what kept me in place. I don't for a moment regret getting out but I do very much regret staying as long as I did. But I didn't really see that when I was in the middle of it. Only later was it clear.


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## Openminded

I just read your post about his dad not working and buying tons of stuff. That's the pattern from his childhood. It's what's normal to him. Someone doesn't just immediately throw off old childhood patterns. It takes a lot of work to do that and it isn't accomplished overnight as he says has happened. Right now it's much more likely panic that's driving what he's doing and not real change (although he could eventually).


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## Satya

Maybe he will be a "better" man for the next woman, but no woman would put up with him pining over the loss of you, which is likely to happen because he's codependent. 

I "saved" my first husband in emotional ways and he "saved" me financially. Once we were able to learn to save each other in those needed ways ourselves, we started growing apart. He found better relief from people online giving him sympathy and I worked like hell to get better wages.

This marriage is so much better for me because I'm not seeking anything really and neither is my husband. I can support myself without help. I'm the first woman he's been with who is so independent, so it's refreshing for him to see the difference. 

It seems like your husband has a bit of an identity problem. People who hide behind masks most of their lives have damage underneath. My ex - H was one such person. Not only that, but they lose sense of their real identity after so many years of hiding behind the mask. I think he clung to you, as you were a stable provider, and he wrapped his identity around you. This may be a reason why this is so hard for him. He's lost and afraid he'll have to rediscover who he really is.


----------



## Thound

WorkingWife said:


> Are you in love now? Are you glad you're together or do you feel like you both could have had more with someone else once you grew up?


I don't want to thread jack, so I will keep it short. I am she isn't. Yes I should have never begged her to stay.


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## WorkingWife

Great post, thank you. I agree with *everything *you said. I bolded the parts that really struck me. 

The part I underlined is where I also took exception to @TheRealMcCoy 's attitude in the posts I did read. I agree with him that I should have left long ago and by not doing so, I hurt us both. But there was something about his tone toward my level of culpability that I didn't agree with but I couldn't put my finger on it. You nailed it for me.

I understand I am culpable and allowed all this to happen. A small amount of self respect and boundaries on my part would have prevented all this. And I *knew* it was a mistake to marry him but somehow did it anyway. But he is also an adult. He knew he was using me. He knew he was not treating me well. He knew I was frustrated and not happy or fulfilled. He knew our relationship was lopsided in his favor and not solid because of many things. I'm sure this bothered him on some level - in fact I think his self loathing contributed to his health issues - but he could have manned up at any time, just like I could have set some standards at any time. He's not some helpless child and I'm not his mommy, even though we played those roles in our relationship.




lifeistooshort said:


> He did make a point that in my view is not entirely incorrect.
> 
> *The gist was that you did him no service by staying with him out of guilt, and if you'd dumped him years ago he might have had a better chance to put his life together. So in that sense you've contributed to his issues.*
> 
> I think that has merit and I also think you know that.
> 
> The flaw in that logic is that it assumes* that your husband is a child and you are the adult who owed it to him to steer him in the right direction like you'd do for a kid*. Except that he's a grown man who shouldn't need his wife to tell him it's not ok to lay around and not work while she works herself to the bone, or that it's not ok to treat your wife poorly or get laughs at her expense.
> 
> If I saw my husband struggling to cover the financial responsibilities there's no way in hell I'd lay around the house and continue to demand more. Men who come on here and complain about such behavior in their wives are told they have spoiled, entitled princesses. Behavior like that is selfish no matter the gender.
> 
> It would be different if he'd been at home raising a family as a SAHD so you could pursue your career, but that's not what you've been dealing with. However, you did give tacit approval by going along with it, so for that you should pay alimony. CA will order it anyway, but even from a moral perspective you accepted responsibility for him in that sense.
> 
> But it doesn't obligate you to now spend the remainder of your years taking care of a bum who treated you poorly and refused to contribute until you told him you wanted out.....now all of a sudden he "gets it". What he gets is that he's going to have to support himself.
> 
> I'm not even suggesting that he doesn't love you to the extent he can, *but he doesn't love you enough to not let you shoulder the financial burden while he continued to demand more.*
> 
> If you had a guy that contributed what he could and got sick later that's completely different; it's crappy to dump someone who's been a good spouse once they're down. But that's not what you've got.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that people show you who they are when they think you're not looking or they think you aren't going anywhere. I don't treat my husband well because I'm afraid he'll dump me (though he might if I don't treat him well).....I do it because he's my husband and I love him. *Someone who treats their spouse like crap until said spouse dumps them doesn't love them that much. Love is giving, not taking; in a mutually giving marriage both parties give and everyone is happy.*
> 
> He's in panic mode right now because his life is about to fall apart, but make no mistake..... everything he's doing is ultimately about him.


----------



## Jessica38

WorkingWife said:


> ******************
> So my questions:
> 1. Am I wrong to stay in the house with him and act like a spouse if I feel pretty certain in my heart that I want a divorce, even if I have told him with words that I don't feel there is hope? I told him I would drop the money / divorce talk for a couple days, and he keeps talking about the future - things we have planned months from now, like it's all a given.
> 
> 2. If he's wiling to make all the changes I want should I consider that maybe our marriage IS "good enough" even if I don't feel any chemistry/passion? I know I took marriage vows but I feel I have to talk myself into loving him romantically, and I feel like staying with him may be the "right" thing to do morally, but it will also be me sacrificing a chance at a much more fulfilling relationship, or even just a life free of him. (That sound terrible, I don't dislike him but I do feel trapped in this relationship.)
> 
> BRIGHT SIDE
> On the bright side, he has swung into action working on marketing for "our" business and is really excited about things and learning how to do things on the computer that before he instantly gave up on. He still has migraines but he said that while he's working he is distracted and they don't bother him as much at all. The minute he stops working the headache comes pounding back. He still has to nap a couple times throughout the day, but he obviously feels much better physically and about himself already. I feel relieved like if we do divorce the business may be making more, and it may cost me more, but only because he's genuinely made it more profitable. I could see us continuing to be business partners but I know he may be way too hurt for that, but at least he will have a little more money and options.
> 
> This makes me feel like I should stay at least a couple months for him to really get going. But I also fear that is leading him on more and it will just prolong the misery.


Since you're familiar with MB, you know that the issue is that you've fallen out of love with your husband. He is not meeting your needs for Financial Support and probably not your intimate needs as well. You also know from MB that if you follow the plan, chances are good that you two will be able to restore the love in your marriage. Since your husband obviously doesn't want to lose you, I think you should:

1. Take him up on his offer to follow MB to the letter. This would improve any marriage, IMO, and especially one like yours- where the passion/romance is gone but the husband is willing to do the work.

2. Go into Plan A. Tell him what you need from him. I'd include talking with Dr. Harley, following MB in its entirety, and following the Policy of Joint Agreement on all issues, to work out your financial issues and start saving together. Keep downsizing your lifestyle on the front burner. 

3. Give it a set amount of time (3 months seems perfectly reasonable to me). If he is following Dr. Harley's advice and the MB plan, including POJA'ing ALL financial decisions and spending with you, and you two are committing to spending 15 hours a week meeting each other's intimate emotional needs, chances are you will have a very different marriage than you do now. If this is not happening, I'd separate at that time. Do not threaten it, do not tell him beforehand. Simply write him a letter restating what you need and give it to him after you've secured your own place. Stay separated for a year while he proves to you he can do it. If he can, you can consider reconciling, and if he can't, you move forward with your life without him.


----------



## WorkingWife

Openminded said:


> I just read your post about his dad not working and buying tons of stuff. That's the pattern from his childhood. It's what's normal to him. Someone doesn't just immediately throw off old childhood patterns. It takes a lot of work to do that and it isn't accomplished overnight as he says has happened. Right now it's much more likely panic that's driving what he's doing and not real change (although he could eventually).


For awhile (before I said I want to divorce) he has been trying very hard to save money. But he really is compulsive or something with buying things, and I am still weak about letting him. For example - my Kindle stopped working. He already has a kindle he never uses as he's on his iPad all the time instead. So I said "I'll just use your kindle for now." But he went and bought me a new kindle as a surprise because it was on sale (still $90...) and claimed he was going to start using his kindle. 

He does that kind of thing constantly. I show an interest in something - it appears on our doorstep. And I know I need to get over worrying about his little feelings because then, instead of saying "we don't need it, send it back" I usually say "we didn't need it but thank you." The truth is he does get some really cool stuff that I don't WANT to send back! But my life is certainly not happier or more fulfilling for having whatever it is. And I certainly wasn't missing whatever it is when I didn't even know it existed.

But it's like a compulsion with him that he can't control. He thinks he's doing so great saving money but he's still dropping $50 here, $100 there...


----------



## MJJEAN

You really do need to cut him off financially. I would and gave said that about overspending spouses regardless of gender. 

Also, buying you gifts with your money is lame. The least he could do if he wants to buy you something is earn the money himself.


----------



## jld

MJJEAN said:


> You really do need to cut him off financially. I would and gave said that about overspending spouses regardless of gender.
> 
> Also, *buying you gifts with your money is lame*. The least he could do if he wants to buy you something is earn the money himself.


:iagree:

I would not do MB with this guy. I would be so done with him. He can go do MB with the next gal if he wants.


----------



## MJJEAN

Really, IF I wanted to remain married, I'd put my income into an account he has no access to, cancel all credit cards other than one in my name only, take over bill payments, give him an allowance for groceries and household items, a few bucks for a Starbucks and a book or something he may want, and sock the rest away for a down payment on a modest home and/or invest in the business. 

I'd also begin looking for a new and more affordable rental in order to move ASAP.

I'd probably insist he either work or obtain a degree/certificate in order to be more employable and/or earn a better wage,too.


----------



## WorkingWife

So I have a update for everyone that I am happy to give.

My H and I have talked a LOT off and on the last few days. I have remained strong and insisted we need to separate. He has continued to be this "new man" that he insists is real, but he has also acknowledged my need to separate and offered to be the one to move into the guest room if we did an in-house separation (I've decided that won't work for me.) And he offered to be the one to move out of our house into a small place (like a rented room) somewhere. However for a few logistic reasons I want to be the one to move out.

He is adamant that he is going to win me back and I told him I would let him court me if he wants, but no matter what, I am not coming back until and unless:

1. He is financially self sufficient. It's up to him how he gets there, he's a man, he can sort it out. If he thinks marketing my product is the best way, I'm fine with that but we have to agree on what portion is from his efforts vs. mine and the results need to be measurable and he needs to be emotionally prepared for the fact that we may divorce regardless of what he does.

2. I'm not coming back unless I really really want to, because I'm in love with him and want to be with him. I'm not coming back because it's just easier, or I am worried about him, or I feel guilty/obligated, or I'm not that miserable with him. He has to be a man that I respect and am in love with and I just don't want to be without him.

3. Also, sex needs to be more passionate and intimate, but I didn't list this condition yet, as I don't know how you tell someone to be more passionate in a way where it doesn't feel contrived to you. I feel I need to want him again before he can do anything there anyhow. He has made comments that he knows he's left me wanting in this department.


It's hard to describe his change because in the past there have always been promises when I would finally get fed up, but nothing came of them, or they were capitulations "I'll do XYZ to keep you but it's not what I want." He genuinely seems like a happier person who has shed some great burden (the burden of being selfish and guarded, LOL) It seems he really wants to just have a simple, meaningful life with me. 

I feel like either way I win now. Either I get the husband I really want, or I get out of a marriage that is killing my spirit. He would much rather we just stay together than separate, but I know I will never feel confident about my choice if I choose to stay without physically getting away from the comfort zone of our living together for some time. Also, I need him to figure things out on his own, especially financially. I don't want to blow this by giving in too soon. I think we both need for him to earn my love if there is any chance of a happily ever after. If I get out and find I am happier without him, I will feel bad but that will have to be his problem. 

I wish I'd grown a pair and set some standards 15 years ago, but we're here now and I feel hopeful about my future for the first time in a long time and* I really want to thank everyone on here for all the advice. It is so helpful to get outside perspectives, I just can't say*. I'd really love to hear what you think of my current plan.


----------



## Elizabeth001

I like it. Stick to it 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MJJEAN

I wouldn't give him the option of marketing for you unless it's a side job you pay him a set amount to do. If the idea is to make him financially self sufficient then he needs his primary source of income to be not you.

Don't forget to separate your finances and make sure he can't open accounts in your or joint names. Also make sure any existing credit lines are either closed or solely in your name with him having no access. Financially self sufficient means he handles his own accounts and credit.


----------



## MrRight

Not a bad outcome - will be even better when you have separated.

I agree with the other poster than you giving him a job marketing your products is not a good option. Let him start his own business

But I suspect once you have left him on his own he wont be able to butter a piece of toast - let alone market your business.

What about the rent on that 4 bed house though? You need to hand in your notice.


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> So I have a update for everyone that I am happy to give.
> 
> My H and I have talked a LOT off and on the last few days. I have remained strong and insisted we need to separate. He has continued to be this "new man" that he insists is real, but he has also acknowledged my need to separate and offered to be the one to move into the guest room if we did an in-house separation (I've decided that won't work for me.) And he offered to be the one to move out of our house into a small place (like a rented room) somewhere. However for a few logistic reasons I want to be the one to move out.
> 
> He is adamant that he is going to win me back and I told him I would let him court me if he wants, but no matter what, I am not coming back until and unless:
> 
> 1. He is financially self sufficient. It's up to him how he gets there, he's a man, he can sort it out. If he thinks marketing my product is the best way, I'm fine with that but we have to agree on what portion is from his efforts vs. mine and the results need to be measurable and he needs to be emotionally prepared for the fact that we may divorce regardless of what he does.
> 
> 2. I'm not coming back unless I really really want to, because I'm in love with him and want to be with him. I'm not coming back because it's just easier, or I am worried about him, or I feel guilty/obligated, or I'm not that miserable with him. He has to be a man that I respect and am in love with and I just don't want to be without him.
> 
> 3. Also, sex needs to be more passionate and intimate, but I didn't list this condition yet, as I don't know how you tell someone to be more passionate in a way where it doesn't feel contrived to you. I feel I need to want him again before he can do anything there anyhow. He has made comments that he knows he's left me wanting in this department.
> 
> 
> It's hard to describe his change because in the past there have always been promises when I would finally get fed up, but nothing came of them, or they were capitulations "I'll do XYZ to keep you but it's not what I want." He genuinely seems like a happier person who has shed some great burden (the burden of being selfish and guarded, LOL) It seems he really wants to just have a simple, meaningful life with me.
> 
> I feel like either way I win now. Either I get the husband I really want, or I get out of a marriage that is killing my spirit. He would much rather we just stay together than separate, but I know I will never feel confident about my choice if I choose to stay without physically getting away from the comfort zone of our living together for some time. Also, I need him to figure things out on his own, especially financially. I don't want to blow this by giving in too soon. I think we both need for him to earn my love if there is any chance of a happily ever after. If I get out and find I am happier without him, I will feel bad but that will have to be his problem.
> 
> I wish I'd grown a pair and set some standards 15 years ago, but we're here now and I feel hopeful about my future for the first time in a long time and* I really want to thank everyone on here for all the advice. It is so helpful to get outside perspectives, I just can't say*. I'd really love to hear what you think of my current plan.


This is very good. I am glad you were methodical about it. It is obvious it has made it easier for both of you, and has given you confidence which is what I was hoping. One thing, it's OK for him to work for you to get on his feet but I encourage you to encourage him to not be dependent on you. If he can once again make it on his own that will give him some confidence and that will change your dynamic. Most men need financial and career success as part of there self-confidence, at least the ones I know. Working for your wife's business isn't a good way to get that in my opinion. It's hard to be passionate if you are not feeling confident. Sex has a lot to do with confidence. I would also encourage him to get in shape, maybe even post on here and let us encourage him to do that. If not here somewhere else. I am sure other members here can recommend some good books about that. 

Besides all that you guys need to separate if you end up separating. He needs to stand on his own two feet. Who knows maybe he will also see that your marriage wasn't what he wanted too. But at least he is moving in that direction. 

One other thing, if you do decided to date again I would NOT keep it secret. Personally I think you should be divorcing before you do that, but it's up to you what you think the moral obligation is. It's not like he cheated and broke the contract. But if you do don't let it be one of these situations where he is still pursuing you and gets blindsided. I also think at that point you really must detach for his benefit, as the pain of seeing you with someone else would be tough. Again this is just my take but it's the honorable way to handle it. So far you have done everything in a very kind and honorable way and that reflects very well on you. I also believe doing it this way has established a good karma for you for lack of a better term. For as painful as this can be you tried to at least address his feelings. 

Good on you. I am very happy and hopeful for you.


----------



## WorkingWife

sokillme said:


> This is very good. I am glad you were methodical about it. It is obvious it has made it easier for both of you, and has given you confidence which is what I was hoping. One thing, it's OK for him to work for you to get on his feet but I encourage you to encourage him to not be dependent on you. If he can once again make it on his own that will give him some confidence and that will change your dynamic. Most men need financial and career success as part of there self-confidence, at least the ones I know. Working for your wife's business isn't a good way to get that in my opinion. It's hard to be passionate if you are not feeling confident. Sex has a lot to do with confidence. I would also encourage him to get in shape, maybe even post on here and let us encourage him to do that. If not here somewhere else. I am sure other members here can recommend some good books about that.
> 
> Besides all that you guys need to separate if you end up separating. He needs to stand on his own two feet. Who knows maybe he will also see that your marriage wasn't what he wanted too. But at least he is moving in that direction.
> 
> One other thing, if you do decided to date again I would NOT keep it secret. Personally I think you should be divorcing before you do that, but it's up to you what you think the moral obligation is. It's not like he cheated and broke the contract. But if you do don't let it be one of these situations where he is still pursuing you and gets blindsided. I also think at that point you really must detach for his benefit, as the pain of seeing you with someone else would be tough. Again this is just my take but it's the honorable way to handle it. So far you have done everything in a very kind and honorable way and that reflects very well on you. I also believe doing it this way has established a good karma for you for lack of a better term. For as painful as this can be you tried to at least address his feelings.
> 
> Good on you. I am very happy and hopeful for you.


Thank you. I am still on a major emotional roller coaster - I have decided I'm emotionally bi-polar for now so to try to just stay calm. 

Today he asked me to watch a 2 hour video on marriage stuff that he had seen and he really related to. (The couple in the video had break-throughs and fought for their marriage and ended up very happy.) I watched it and it was good but I didn't see us in it the way he did. 

Afterward he was imploring me to just give us this one second chance and not separate. Saying I should have told him I was going to want a divorce before I did so he could change sooner. From my perspective I did many times, but since I continued to accept his behavior, from his perspective I never did. He was crying and instead of feeling compassion and hopeful for our future like I did yesterday, I felt totally panicked and like he was trying to control and manipulate me for his agenda. (My mind knows he's trying to save his marriage but my gut and heart were in pure panic mode.) especially since I told him I wasn't coming back until he was financially independent on his own, and here he is saying "don't leave at all." 

But we dropped the subject and took our dogs for a walk and things went wrong with the dogs that before would have put him in a mood - well before he just wouldn't have gone for fear they'd embarrass him. But he was calm and handled the situation. Then back at home he did the sweetest most amusing thing -- he's learning how to set up web pages for the product and he made a test one that he wanted me to see - it was a sales page to me, with all these points on why I can have family, love, and passion if I stick with him. It listed all his good qualities - some just amusing like "good blood pressure" but others all the things he knows I want that he already is, or is becoming. Then he was just "nice" to me about something that in the past he would have made sarcastic jokes and teased me about. Sigh. Suddenly I am seeing a happy future with him again. By the end of the night I even started thinking I don't really want to separate, but I think I need to for a while regardless. For the money reason and because I really really really feel I need to CHOOSE him, not GIVE IN to him.

Regarding Dating - I would not do that, or if I did I would tell him first. Honestly, I reallly wish I could because I really want something to compare him to because the entire time we've been together I have felt "Someone else would be a better fit for me." And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always. But if I started dating? Oh, God, that would do permanent damage to us if we did stay together. And just being practical - um, what kind of guy is going to want to "date" a married woman who is looking for something to compare to her spouse?


----------



## MrRight

"And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always."

well - that says it all.

Not easy being married to someone you wish you hadnt.

Hope you get out of this - sounds to me though like you are in denial.


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## lifeistooshort

You are being manipulated.

He did know you were unhappy, just not that you were unhappy enough for a divorce. 

Translation: I am about me. I was content to be nasty and let you support me until I realized MY life was going to blow up. Now I can magically flip a switch and become a nice guy on the surface so that I can maintain my lifestyle. That means it was a conscious decision I made because it suited me at the time. 

Notice how he's now got ypu watching marriage videos instead of him actually looking for a job?

And you're buying it. What does a marriage video have to do with him being a mooching bum? It's a way to manipulate you away from the real issue.

Maybe I'm wrong.....but my BS radar is petty good and it's going off with this one. This guy is all about him. At the end of the day you'll be right back where you were.....MAYBE he'll be a little nicer since his meal ticket is on the line but you'll still be supporting him. 

You're wasting your time. If I turn out the be wrong I'll gladly admit it.


----------



## brooklynAnn

@lifeistooshort has read him right. You are drinking the kool aid again girl. This guy knows how to work you over well. I say stick to your plans and set your move out date. 

Or the cycle of your life will keep repeating.


----------



## MrRight

"he's learning how to set up web pages for the product and he made a test one that he wanted me to see - it was a sales page to me, with all these points on why I can have family, love, and passion if I stick with him."

marketing himself then.

what makes him think he can give you all the things he has failed to give for the last x number of years?

as others have said - he's only saying this now to keep you from upsetting his comfort zone


----------



## sokillme

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you. I am still on a major emotional roller coaster - I have decided I'm emotionally bi-polar for now so to try to just stay calm.
> 
> Today he asked me to watch a 2 hour video on marriage stuff that he had seen and he really related to. (The couple in the video had break-throughs and fought for their marriage and ended up very happy.) I watched it and it was good but I didn't see us in it the way he did.
> 
> Afterward he was imploring me to just give us this one second chance and not separate. Saying I should have told him I was going to want a divorce before I did so he could change sooner. From my perspective I did many times, but since I continued to accept his behavior, from his perspective I never did. He was crying and instead of feeling compassion and hopeful for our future like I did yesterday, I felt totally panicked and like he was trying to control and manipulate me for his agenda. (My mind knows he's trying to save his marriage but my gut and heart were in pure panic mode.) especially since I told him I wasn't coming back until he was financially independent on his own, and here he is saying "don't leave at all."
> 
> But we dropped the subject and took our dogs for a walk and things went wrong with the dogs that before would have put him in a mood - well before he just wouldn't have gone for fear they'd embarrass him. But he was calm and handled the situation. Then back at home he did the sweetest most amusing thing -- he's learning how to set up web pages for the product and he made a test one that he wanted me to see - it was a sales page to me, with all these points on why I can have family, love, and passion if I stick with him. It listed all his good qualities - some just amusing like "good blood pressure" but others all the things he knows I want that he already is, or is becoming. Then he was just "nice" to me about something that in the past he would have made sarcastic jokes and teased me about. Sigh. Suddenly I am seeing a happy future with him again. By the end of the night I even started thinking I don't really want to separate, but I think I need to for a while regardless. For the money reason and because I really really really feel I need to CHOOSE him, not GIVE IN to him.
> 
> Regarding Dating - I would not do that, or if I did I would tell him first. Honestly, I reallly wish I could because I really want something to compare him to because the entire time we've been together I have felt "Someone else would be a better fit for me." And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always. But if I started dating? Oh, God, that would do permanent damage to us if we did stay together. And just being practical - um, what kind of guy is going to want to "date" a married woman who is looking for something to compare to her spouse?


Stick to your guns. Tell him you feel time apart will do YOU good even if he doesn't like it. He should understand this is part of the consequences for how he has treated you. You are not doing anything wrong, this man is a grown adult you are his wife not his Mom. Remember and be sure to remind him all of this is a direct consequence of his actions, it's not you being mean. Stop trying to anticipate the outcome just move slowly and methodically. This situation will work out itself. Right now work on getting healthy, if you need time apart so be it. What you should be seeking now is clarity, sound like for you that requires space. Let him know that and then give yourself some.


----------



## RoseAglow

WorkingWife, I'm glad to hear that your husband is picking up the slack in some areas. I would caution you though. You stayed with him for 20 years in part because he met some of your emotional needs. At the same time, through his careless and reckless financial handling, you are extremely vulnerable financially. You are in danger of staying in your pattern, allowing his ability to meet other ENs keep you in the relationship.

Please keep the focus on that one big and important EN: financial support. This is a safety issue for you.

If you really want to change your current route to financial insecurity going into the 2nd half of your life, your last decade or so of working, then you need to hold the bar high and make some changes.

I echo everyone else who recommends that your H get a job that is NOT connected to you. He needs to be able to stand on his own and most importantly, he needs to be able to protect you from himself and his weaknesses, and there are 20 years to show that one of his weaknesses is his willingness to spend all the money available. If he is talented in marketing, let him find a marketing job that is not dependent upon you.

Move out. Get yourself in a safe place emotionally and financially. Let your husband show that he can be a contributor. 

No one will take you seriously until you take yourself seriously. It is a PITA to move, it is a PITA to do all these things. But until you show that you are for real, no real changes will happen, either for yourself or your husband.

If he gives you a good Marketing show for why he is a good bet, thank him and say that he would be the cream of the crop is able to resolve this last issue. Or that with his marketing and sales skills, he should be able to be successful in the employment world and you look forward to seeing him succeed. Cheering him on does not mean keeping him in the same situation and letting the status quo continue on.


----------



## Jessica38

WorkingWife said:


> So I have a update for everyone that I am happy to give.
> 
> My H and I have talked a LOT off and on the last few days. I have remained strong and insisted we need to separate. He has continued to be this "new man" that he insists is real, but he has also acknowledged my need to separate and offered to be the one to move into the guest room if we did an in-house separation (I've decided that won't work for me.) And he offered to be the one to move out of our house into a small place (like a rented room) somewhere. However for a few logistic reasons I want to be the one to move out.
> 
> He is adamant that he is going to win me back and I told him I would let him court me if he wants, but no matter what, I am not coming back until and unless:
> 
> 1. He is financially self sufficient. It's up to him how he gets there, he's a man, he can sort it out. If he thinks marketing my product is the best way, I'm fine with that but we have to agree on what portion is from his efforts vs. mine and the results need to be measurable and he needs to be emotionally prepared for the fact that we may divorce regardless of what he does.
> 
> 2. I'm not coming back unless I really really want to, because I'm in love with him and want to be with him. I'm not coming back because it's just easier, or I am worried about him, or I feel guilty/obligated, or I'm not that miserable with him. He has to be a man that I respect and am in love with and I just don't want to be without him.
> 
> 3. Also, sex needs to be more passionate and intimate, but I didn't list this condition yet, as I don't know how you tell someone to be more passionate in a way where it doesn't feel contrived to you. I feel I need to want him again before he can do anything there anyhow. He has made comments that he knows he's left me wanting in this department.
> 
> 
> It's hard to describe his change because in the past there have always been promises when I would finally get fed up, but nothing came of them, or they were capitulations "I'll do XYZ to keep you but it's not what I want." He genuinely seems like a happier person who has shed some great burden (the burden of being selfish and guarded, LOL) It seems he really wants to just have a simple, meaningful life with me.
> 
> I feel like either way I win now. Either I get the husband I really want, or I get out of a marriage that is killing my spirit. He would much rather we just stay together than separate, but I know I will never feel confident about my choice if I choose to stay without physically getting away from the comfort zone of our living together for some time. Also, I need him to figure things out on his own, especially financially. I don't want to blow this by giving in too soon. I think we both need for him to earn my love if there is any chance of a happily ever after. If I get out and find I am happier without him, I will feel bad but that will have to be his problem.
> 
> I wish I'd grown a pair and set some standards 15 years ago, but we're here now and I feel hopeful about my future for the first time in a long time and* I really want to thank everyone on here for all the advice. It is so helpful to get outside perspectives, I just can't say*. I'd really love to hear what you think of my current plan.


Good for you! I'm glad you've decided to separate with a list of conditions for getting you back. I'd recommend seeing an attorney and filing for a legal separation, especially since you're planning to leave your home. Your husband may say he wants to prove himself to you now, but there is always a chance that down the road he could make things difficult for you if he decides he's unable or unwilling to meet your conditions. You have a lot at stake- the house, business, and possible alimony that he could go after if he becomes frustrated and/or unwilling.

And kudos to you for rejecting the offer for an in-house separation. That is not a separation at all and it will not have the affect of allowing you to heal emotionally to move forward without him or for him to fully feel the loss of your help and companionship. 

I'd highly recommend picking up His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters. You're essentially following the plan recommended by Dr. Harleyin MB to wives whose husband's will not step up after being repeatedly asked. I think you'll find his books helpful whether you recover this relationship or not.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you. I am still on a major emotional roller coaster - I have decided I'm emotionally bi-polar for now so to try to just stay calm.
> 
> Today he asked me to watch a 2 hour video on marriage stuff that he had seen and he really related to. (The couple in the video had break-throughs and fought for their marriage and ended up very happy.) I watched it and it was good but I didn't see us in it the way he did.
> 
> Afterward he was imploring me to just give us this one second chance and not separate. Saying I should have told him I was going to want a divorce before I did so he could change sooner. From my perspective I did many times, but since I continued to accept his behavior, from his perspective I never did. He was crying and instead of feeling compassion and hopeful for our future like I did yesterday, I felt totally panicked and like he was trying to control and manipulate me for his agenda. (My mind knows he's trying to save his marriage but my gut and heart were in pure panic mode.) especially since I told him I wasn't coming back until he was financially independent on his own, and here he is saying "don't leave at all."
> 
> But we dropped the subject and took our dogs for a walk and things went wrong with the dogs that before would have put him in a mood - well before he just wouldn't have gone for fear they'd embarrass him. But he was calm and handled the situation. Then back at home he did the sweetest most amusing thing -- he's learning how to set up web pages for the product and he made a test one that he wanted me to see - it was a sales page to me, with all these points on why I can have family, love, and passion if I stick with him. It listed all his good qualities - some just amusing like "good blood pressure" but others all the things he knows I want that he already is, or is becoming. Then he was just "nice" to me about something that in the past he would have made sarcastic jokes and teased me about. Sigh. Suddenly I am seeing a happy future with him again. By the end of the night I even started thinking I don't really want to separate, but I think I need to for a while regardless. For the money reason and because I really really really feel I need to CHOOSE him, not GIVE IN to him.
> 
> Regarding Dating - I would not do that, or if I did I would tell him first. Honestly, I reallly wish I could because I really want something to compare him to because the entire time we've been together I have felt "Someone else would be a better fit for me." And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always. But if I started dating? Oh, God, that would do permanent damage to us if we did stay together. And just being practical - um, what kind of guy is going to want to "date" a married woman who is looking for something to compare to her spouse?


I hate to say this, but this is all just lip service and a waste of time. You dont want to be with this man, but you just cant bring yourself to drop the hammer out of GUILT. No matter what changes he might manage to make and keep, it doesnt matter, because you dont love him the way you should love a husband, and you dont want to be with him. And thats OK. Sorry if he may disagree, but really...its OK. Allow yourself to cut yourself free if that is what you want. (and it seems to be so)


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## Openminded

WW, I think you'll end up staying because it's easier than leaving. He's extremely good at manipulating you and he's not going to stop. 

You've stayed through the bad times over the years so he feels if he pulls out all the stops now he can reel you back in. And, unfortunately, I think he's right.


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## Elizabeth001

Openminded said:


> WW, I think you'll end up staying because it's easier than leaving. He's extremely good at manipulating you and he's not going to stop.
> 
> You've stayed through the bad times over the years so he feels if he pulls out all the stops now he can reel you back in. And, unfortunately, I think he's right.




Ugh...I hate to say it but I agree. 

WW... please move out and give it some time. If his changes are real now, they will be 6 months from now. A total separation can only help your situation. You CANT see things objectively being there up his butt 24/7. My money is on the idea that you will see the charade drop in a short period of time. 

This is no time to lose your courage!


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## oldshirt

Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez, Jeffry Dahmer etc etc etc would all be pleasant and compliant and charming for temporary period of time when they wanted something from somebody. ......Then (Dahmer anyway) would drill holes in people's head and inject acid in hopes of turning them into a sex zombie. 

I'm not saying your H is a serial killer, but I am saying anyone can play nice for a period of time. 

What do you think has better odds of playing out, behavior that has been happening for the last couple weeks? Or behavior that has been established over the last 40+ years? 

If he wants to turn over a new leaf and become a productive, resourceful and helpful adult man, that is awesome and we can all wish him luck and hope for his success.....but are you willing to gamble this experiment on your time and your dime????

A much wiser bet would be to divorce him and get him out from under your dime, move with your own life and put yourself on the open dating market - and if it 5 years he has established himself as a sober, productive, self-supporting and successful member of the community and you are available at that time and are attracted to him at that time, you would be free to date him if you were so inclined. 

Remember Ted Bundy was a good looking, charming, law student that would walk his female coworkers to their cars after work at night to make sure they got in their cars safely. Then he would kidnap, chain up, rape, kill and dismember others. 

Anyone can play nice for awhile.


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## WorkingWife

RoseAglow said:


> Move out. Get yourself in a safe place emotionally and financially. Let your husband show that he can be a contributor.
> 
> No one will take you seriously until you take yourself seriously. It is a PITA to move, it is a PITA to do all these things. But until you show that you are for real, no real changes will happen, either for yourself or your husband.
> 
> If he gives you a good Marketing show for why he is a good bet, thank him and say that he would be the cream of the crop is able to resolve this last issue. Or that with his marketing and sales skills, he should be able to be successful in the employment world and you look forward to seeing him succeed. Cheering him on does not mean keeping him in the same situation and letting the status quo continue on.


Thanks @RoseAglow and @sokillme,

Today we talked again and I told him that I have a glimmer of hope when he is NOT pushing me and that I was moving out and not coming back until my two conditions:
1. Him being financially stable and 
2. My desiring to be with him 
were met.

He said he understood and did not mean to come across like he was pressuring me, he was just trying to communicate what he was thinking and hoping for.

As for working to market my product, I know you guys are probably right that he should do something else. This has always been a concern because I've felt like his being able to support us was based on my doing something first. However, it also is helpful to me that he market my product first and it's something he can work on right now. And he actually is doing, not just talking about, at this point. So I told him that is up to him, I need a man, and a man will figure it out. And I'm not coming back until he's financially self sufficient no matter what else is going on, and if he's not making money yet because I'm holding him back by not having my product ready yet, then that's his problem, he needs to figure something else out.

Ironically, just discussing this conflict with him is bringing an intimacy we've never had that is meeting a lot of my emotional needs and I feel myself wanting to just cave and stay here - thinking this is such a pain... Everything is going to be fine... but I know that's how I ended up in this situation and I have to be strong. Everyone's posts are very helpful to keep me thinking straight.


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## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> "And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always."
> 
> well - that says it all.
> 
> Not easy being married to someone you wish you hadnt.
> 
> Hope you get out of this - sounds to me though like you are in denial.


I probably am in denial because I find myself wanting to cave again. But I am not going to do it. I am separating. I hope that will help me gain clarity.

The money thing will take him some time to resolve and I'm not coming back until it is resolved. 

The emotional stinginess, selfishness, and inability to cope with life's daily disappointments on his part truly feels changed though. He feels truly open and light hearted and mature compared to before. Before, he was "trying" in the last couple years since I started pushing for change, but it *felt *like "trying" - He was "trying" to be nice but you could feel it took an effort on is part. That's where I just wanted someone different. Someone who actually just WAS nice. Who didn't have to work to want to help others and be nice. Someone who didn't have to control themselves to keep from getting angry if I made a mistake or the printer jammed or any little thing didn't go their way. Now, I am just not feeling that underlying judgment/irritation in him. This is where he claims he feels a weight has just been lifted from him. 

I know it sounds ridiculous to truly change overnight, but that is what it really feels like. Regardless, I still have to decide if I want to be with someone who was capable of taking advantage of my good nature for so many years and bankrupting regardless of the enabling role I played. Also, we'll see if the new him passes the test of time/separation.


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## MrRight

WW I'm an online seller with products - if my W announced to me she was going to market my producrs it would make me incredibly depressed but I would say to her - ok go ahead - and then start to monitor closely those products she is marketing. (I'm already doing the best job I can with my marketing) I would be amazed if her marketing efforts would have any impact on sales.
My W has been a non worker for 16 years - has sometimes suggested I give her a more active role in my business - I have always blocked this as I dont need her help - working on my own is my only refuge from her. I also think that if she wants to add to the money coming into the fammily she should find her own way to earn money. She wont - as she wants to do a particular kind of work there is no demand for - and she wont do any other, If I was her I would go to a supermarket and stack shelves but she wont consider it. We're in debt - she has to have everything organic etc. You get the picture.
We are brining up a 14 year old so i cant consider breaking this up.
But you have no children? I dont see what is stopping you.

As someone once said to me 17 years ago when I was thinking of ways to get rid of the woman I have spent all dreadful these years with

Walk away. Turn over a new life!


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## 3Xnocharm

WorkingWife said:


> I probably am in denial because I find myself wanting to cave again. But I am not going to do it. I am separating. I hope that will help me gain clarity.
> 
> The money thing will take him some time to resolve and I'm not coming back until it is resolved.
> 
> The emotional stinginess, selfishness, and inability to cope with life's daily disappointments on his part truly feels changed though. He feels truly open and light hearted and mature compared to before. Before, he was "trying" in the last couple years since I started pushing for change, but it *felt *like "trying" - He was "trying" to be nice but you could feel it took an effort on is part. That's where I just wanted someone different. Someone who actually just WAS nice. Who didn't have to work to want to help others and be nice. Someone who didn't have to control themselves to keep from getting angry if I made a mistake or the printer jammed or any little thing didn't go their way. Now, I am just not feeling that underlying judgment/irritation in him. This is where he claims he feels a weight has just been lifted from him.
> 
> I know it sounds ridiculous to truly change overnight, but that is what it really feels like. Regardless, I still have to decide if I want to be with someone who was capable of taking advantage of my good nature for so many years and bankrupting regardless of the enabling role I played. Also, we'll see if the new him passes the test of time/separation.


I give it six weeks. Within six weeks, he will be reverting back to himself.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

MrRight said:


> WW I'm an online seller with products - if my W announced to me she was going to market my producrs it would make me incredibly depressed but I would say to her - ok go ahead - and then start to monitor closely those products she is marketing. (I'm already doing the best job I can with my marketing) I would be amazed if her marketing efforts would have any impact on sales.
> My W has been a non worker for 16 years - has sometimes suggested I give her a more active role in my business - I have always blocked this as I dont need her help - working on my own is my only refuge from her. I also think that if she wants to add to the money coming into the fammily she should find her own way to earn money. She wont - as she wants to do a particular kind of work there is no demand for - and she wont do any other, If I was her I would go to a supermarket and stack shelves but she wont consider it. We're in debt - she has to have everything organic etc. You get the picture.
> *We are brining up a 14 year old so i cant consider breaking this up.*
> But you have no children? I dont see what is stopping you.
> 
> As someone once said to me 17 years ago when I was thinking of ways to get rid of the woman I have spent all dreadful these years with
> 
> Walk away. Turn over a new life!


Not to threadjack, but you are using your child as your excuse to stay in your misery. 

People with kids divorce all the time, and everyone survives, most even thrive. You do that kid no favors.


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## MrRight

3Xnocharm said:


> Not to threadjack, but you are using your child as your excuse to stay in your misery.
> 
> People with kids divorce all the time, and everyone survives, most even thrive. You do that kid no favors.


with respect - you dont know all my circumstances and I am the best judge of whether it is best for my son or not.

careful with those generalisations and one size fits all mindsets.


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## phillybeffandswiss

There were no generalizations or "one size fits all" in her statement. Still y'all should probably take it to another thread because the derail, concerning your defensiveness, would be huge.


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## WorkingWife

3Xnocharm said:


> I give it six weeks. Within six weeks, he will be reverting back to himself.


OK! I'm putting this on my calendar...


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## Elizabeth001

Put it on the calendar that's hanging in your new apartment girl. 


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## WorkingWife

MrRight said:


> WW I'm an online seller with products - if my W announced to me she was going to market my producrs it would make me incredibly depressed but I would say to her - ok go ahead - and then start to monitor closely those products she is marketing. (I'm already doing the best job I can with my marketing) I would be amazed if her marketing efforts would have any impact on sales.
> My W has been a non worker for 16 years - has sometimes suggested I give her a more active role in my business - I have always blocked this as I dont need her help - working on my own is my only refuge from her. I also think that if she wants to add to the money coming into the fammily she should find her own way to earn money. She wont - as she wants to do a particular kind of work there is no demand for - and she wont do any other, If I was her I would go to a supermarket and stack shelves but she wont consider it. We're in debt - she has to have everything organic etc. You get the picture.
> We are brining up a 14 year old so i cant consider breaking this up.
> But you have no children? I dont see what is stopping you.
> 
> As someone once said to me 17 years ago when I was thinking of ways to get rid of the woman I have spent all dreadful these years with
> 
> Walk away. Turn over a new life!


It's like you and I are leading parallel lives (even down to the organic) except I have no kid. Just 3 dogs.

However, I am not doing any marketing of my product yet. So far I sell it directly, business to business to clients. It's software and I usually have to customize it for each client (there's money in the customization in addition to the pre-existing software). The "product" is a version that can be purchased on line and does not need me to customize it. I have mixed feelings about him marketing it. I really can't keep up with my existing clients, who are keeping the lights on, and do all the marketing. But it is still an income solution for him that requires something from me. And then if we're trying to apportion the money, it gets hazy too.

His plan is to use this to get going and then continue to find additional/unrelated things to market once this is going smoothly and he knows what he's doing with websites, sales funnels, etc. But the fact that it's not a "job" means it's not instant income and HE seems to be in denial when I say I'm not coming back until he's financially self sufficient. If this takes more than a couple months, then we do have to get rid of our current rental and figure out how we're going to find affordable rentals for two separate people with three dogs between them.


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## MrRight

WorkingWife said:


> It's like you and I are leading parallel lives (even down to the organic) except I have no kid. Just 3 dogs.
> 
> However, I am not doing any marketing of my product yet. So far I sell it directly, business to business to clients. It's software and I usually have to customize it for each client (there's money in the customization in addition to the pre-existing software). The "product" is a version that can be purchased on line and does not need me to customize it. I have mixed feelings about him marketing it. I really can't keep up with my existing clients, who are keeping the lights on, and do all the marketing. But it is still an income solution for him that requires something from me. And then if we're trying to apportion the money, it gets hazy too.
> 
> His plan is to use this to get going and then continue to find additional/unrelated things to market once this is going smoothly and he knows what he's doing with websites, sales funnels, etc. But the fact that it's not a "job" means it's not instant income and HE seems to be in denial when I say I'm not coming back until he's financially self sufficient. If this takes more than a couple months, then we do have to get rid of our current rental and figure out how we're going to find affordable rentals for two separate people with three dogs between them.


we have a dog too - her choice not mine. 

sounds to me like you've got potentially a very good business model there.
ok let him try to get you more clients if you can handle the extra work. But has he found you one single client extra ever so far? He's saying he is going to do this and that - but in hard cash - how much money has he added to your business? I think you will find he imagines he has a deal with you - he markets if you stay. when or if you split - he will likely go to pieces and wont be fit to sell a kids dummy on ebay.

If I were you I would hand in my notice asap on the house - that will make him see you mean business. Dont make the split contingent on him establishing his money making power. You might just have to wait forever. It's also not your responsiblity to establish him in his new life. That's why the best option is find your own pad - move out and leave him there. Get your possesions out and let him face the landlord when he comes to get the keys.


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## sokillme

3Xnocharm said:


> I give it six weeks. Within six weeks, he will be reverting back to himself.


I totally agree but at least then there will be no guilt about ending it. Just a fresh start knowing she did all she could.


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## MrRight

TheRealMcCoy said:


> "A Glimmer of Hope". I'm gonna' work that that into the title of my book.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice. You give him hope, then make it based upon two conditions he cannot meet. One of which he has ZERO control over.
> 
> EVERYONE is telling you to leave this monster. Including me, but for different reasons. Your husband needs to heal. Your husband needs to start his new life. And you give him a "glimmer of hope" instead. Like you did before. And before that. And bef....
> 
> One of my posts that was deleted included an offer to communicate with your husband. I could save him three years off of the healing process. He's not even past shock. Trying to win you back will be pathetic. Acceptance is the hardest. And it takes SO long. That's the part I can help him with.
> 
> Let this man go. Please. You've failed him for 20 years now. Time to stop.


what makes you think a strange man from a marriage forum telling this guy he is having his life wasted by a wife that just wont let go?

what do you think he will say? he's not a self helpie by the sounds of it and if he hasnt twigged that his marriage amounts to nothing I doubt whether a stranger emailing him with sense is going to bring him into a better position. He will never want to let go of his rubber duck from the sounds of it.

I think you've got too much compassion for this man - who does not seem, if her accounts are correct - to be worthy of the help you want to give him. He is indeed worthy of the life he has. Many would say he's got a pretty good deal given that he's had a woman to support him and pander to his needs all these years.


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## Elizabeth001

@WorkingWife how's it going?


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## aine

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you. I am still on a major emotional roller coaster - I have decided I'm emotionally bi-polar for now so to try to just stay calm.
> 
> Today he asked me to watch a 2 hour video on marriage stuff that he had seen and he really related to. (The couple in the video had break-throughs and fought for their marriage and ended up very happy.) I watched it and it was good but I didn't see us in it the way he did.
> 
> Afterward he was imploring me to just give us this one second chance and not separate. Saying I should have told him I was going to want a divorce before I did so he could change sooner. From my perspective I did many times, but since I continued to accept his behavior, from his perspective I never did. He was crying and instead of feeling compassion and hopeful for our future like I did yesterday, I felt totally panicked and like he was trying to control and manipulate me for his agenda. (My mind knows he's trying to save his marriage but my gut and heart were in pure panic mode.) especially since I told him I wasn't coming back until he was financially independent on his own, and here he is saying "don't leave at all."
> 
> But we dropped the subject and took our dogs for a walk and things went wrong with the dogs that before would have put him in a mood - well before he just wouldn't have gone for fear they'd embarrass him. But he was calm and handled the situation. Then back at home he did the sweetest most amusing thing -- he's learning how to set up web pages for the product and he made a test one that he wanted me to see - it was a sales page to me, with all these points on why I can have family, love, and passion if I stick with him. It listed all his good qualities - some just amusing like "good blood pressure" but others all the things he knows I want that he already is, or is becoming. Then he was just "nice" to me about something that in the past he would have made sarcastic jokes and teased me about. Sigh. Suddenly I am seeing a happy future with him again. By the end of the night I even started thinking I don't really want to separate, but I think I need to for a while regardless. For the money reason and because I really really really feel I need to CHOOSE him, not GIVE IN to him.
> 
> Regarding Dating - I would not do that, or if I did I would tell him first. Honestly, I reallly wish I could because I really want something to compare him to because the entire time we've been together I have felt "Someone else would be a better fit for me." And maybe I can't appreciate all the ways we do fit because I've regretted marrying him always. But if I started dating? Oh, God, that would do permanent damage to us if we did stay together. And just being practical - um, what kind of guy is going to want to "date" a married woman who is looking for something to compare to her spouse?


What happens if he decides that when you separate, he finds someone to date and actually thinks he's better off with her, how will you feel, will you be OK with that? Sometimes things can change and change drastically, I get the feeling you want him to do all the changing but are there areas you need to change. The problems in a marriage should never be the sole responsibility of one person. 
You are in a position of strength now to call the shots, but you may not always be, something for you to consider.


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## googoodoll

Dearest WorkingWife, I’ve read your topics from start to finish and it’s just uncanny how many parallels there are between you and me, your husband and mine, the whole relationship dynamic and even where we are right now. The biggest difference I guess is that I’m 20 years younger than you and we do have children, which I’ll get to later on. Other than that it’s pretty much entirely the same story.

When my husband and I met, I was seventeen and he was twenty. He’d been in a relationship that did not fit him and when he met me, he was immediately over the moon: I was so different! I fell for him too because we had a lot in common and to be fair, I was totally unexperienced and did not know what I was supposed to feel. Throughout our relationship, I have always had a sort of nagging doubt, sometimes almost non-existent, sometimes very prominent, but every time I voiced this doubt or told him I didn’t like the way things were going or anything, he convinced me to stay because our relationship was the stuff that (his) dreams were made of. I let myself believe in that and I did always love him very much and still do, but sometimes I do wonder if we’re a good match/if we’ve ever been a good match – I feel the same as you, that we can get along fine but it’s not really that special sort of love. Although as your husband does, he also tells me that he loves my quirks and wants to have a ‘happy, bubbly [my name]’, because I am happy and bubbly and I bring a lot of that into his life probably, besides bringing a lot more too – which, again, I’ll get to.

As the years passed, he quit his education because he couldn’t make it work (now, looking back, I feel like he didn’t put in enough effort) and started working a part-time underpaid job. All the while I was graduating and starting work and later on building my own business, which thrived. Then at some point he lost his part-time job too and became unemployed, and he couldn’t manage to find a new job. So then I also enabled him to work (for around 15 hours per week) in my business, which I regret now because it made him even more dependent on me, but at that point I didn’t feel like I had a choice: it was either this – it seemed to make him happy – or watch him be depressed and unable to get out of this because he wasn’t able to find work. Again, looking back, I don’t think he put in a lot of effort.

During this time, there came a point when I was done with it and told him so. Then I made the worst mistake I could have made. He bawled like a baby and I felt so sorry for him and I also felt so much pain, because I do love him, so his pain is my pain too, and I don’t want him to hurt. Somewhere within this dynamic he cried out: “I want to have children with you!” (i.e.: “Don’t do this to me, don’t throw away this future!”) Because I felt sorry and because I love him and because he promised things would be different, I stayed, and now we have two children. Who by the way mean the world to me and if I could go back and change anything, I wouldn’t, because then I wouldn’t have them.

But things haven’t really changed. This is because he can change his behavior on some level, try to work on himself and be a better husband, give me everything I need (I need a lot of freedom I always say, but right now I feel like this is just a need for being away from him because his negativity and his down-putting comments (or belittling jokes as you say) they wear me down too) – eh, where was I. Well so yes he tries and still when I think about my future, I don’t picture him in it. It hurts me to say this but this is true. 

So recently, actually around the same time you broke the news to your husband, I told him I wanted a divorce. He cried his heart out again and after that, he left for a few days to give both of us some room to breathe and to think. All the time he was gone from our home – where I stayed – I felt so relieved. It felt right. Again, it pains me to say this, but it did. It was like for the first time in many years I was able to be myself. And this is in a home that has not ever totally felt like mine anyway, because like yours, my husband has very high standards for living and essentially we bought a house that accommodates to his needs but isn’t necessarily what I would have chosen if it were up to me. Throughout the years of our relationship and marriage I seem to have given up on a lot of what makes me me, and now that I read your story just so much of it resonates with me and looking at your situation it’s easy to say: leave! Just leave. The worst that could happen is you become a spinster, and actually that’s not at all as bad as society has made us believe. But why then when I see so many similarities and want to scream at you to get out, is it so hard for me to do it myself?

Because when after these few days of complete bliss my husband came back home, he was the sweetest imaginable. He expressed his love for me a thousand times even when I was firm about not wanting to continue in this marriage, and eventually, my confidence started to crumble and I was yet again overcome by love for this flawed but beautiful man that I share so much with. Hell, we even have kids together. So we’re trying again. Now, he stopped working for my business and stopped working altogether. This was a choice we made after a long and hard talk because when he did this work, he didn’t manage to do anything else. 15 hours of work per week (whereas I work around 50) was too much for him that he couldn’t even do half of the chores around the house and half of the taking care of our kids. Now he’s not working anymore and he does the whole stay-at-home dad thing, though our kids still go to daycare two afternoons per week for his me-time. He’s slow to change, he needs a lot of time to adjust, and I can’t really say a lot about this now or so he claims; I should be patient for him to prove that he really will step up his game. But for now I just don’t know. I do see, like you do, that he is working on it, but I fear that it is just too little, too late. 

For the longest time, I didn’t know if our relationship was as it should be. I tried to find reasons to leave, ammunition so that when people asked about it, I would be able to explain my choice. Now I know that there doesn’t have to be an explanation. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. Listen to your gut. I will have to listen to mine, too, hard as it may be. I’m still struggling. I tell him how I feel and he keeps on trying to win me back. I wouldn’t even want to be with someone who doesn’t really want to be with me.


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## aine

googoodoll said:


> Dearest WorkingWife, I’ve read your topics from start to finish and it’s just uncanny how many parallels there are between you and me, your husband and mine, the whole relationship dynamic and even where we are right now. The biggest difference I guess is that I’m 20 years younger than you and we do have children, which I’ll get to later on. Other than that it’s pretty much entirely the same story.
> 
> When my husband and I met, I was seventeen and he was twenty. He’d been in a relationship that did not fit him and when he met me, he was immediately over the moon: I was so different! I fell for him too because we had a lot in common and to be fair, I was totally unexperienced and did not know what I was supposed to feel. Throughout our relationship, I have always had a sort of nagging doubt, sometimes almost non-existent, sometimes very prominent, but every time I voiced this doubt or told him I didn’t like the way things were going or anything, he convinced me to stay because our relationship was the stuff that (his) dreams were made of. I let myself believe in that and I did always love him very much and still do, but sometimes I do wonder if we’re a good match/if we’ve ever been a good match – I feel the same as you, that we can get along fine but it’s not really that special sort of love. Although as your husband does, he also tells me that he loves my quirks and wants to have a ‘happy, bubbly [my name]’, because I am happy and bubbly and I bring a lot of that into his life probably, besides bringing a lot more too – which, again, I’ll get to.
> 
> As the years passed, he quit his education because he couldn’t make it work (now, looking back, I feel like he didn’t put in enough effort) and started working a part-time underpaid job. All the while I was graduating and starting work and later on building my own business, which thrived. Then at some point he lost his part-time job too and became unemployed, and he couldn’t manage to find a new job. So then I also enabled him to work (for around 15 hours per week) in my business, which I regret now because it made him even more dependent on me, but at that point I didn’t feel like I had a choice: it was either this – it seemed to make him happy – or watch him be depressed and unable to get out of this because he wasn’t able to find work. Again, looking back, I don’t think he put in a lot of effort.
> 
> During this time, there came a point when I was done with it and told him so. Then I made the worst mistake I could have made. He bawled like a baby and I felt so sorry for him and I also felt so much pain, because I do love him, so his pain is my pain too, and I don’t want him to hurt. Somewhere within this dynamic he cried out: “I want to have children with you!” (i.e.: “Don’t do this to me, don’t throw away this future!”) Because I felt sorry and because I love him and because he promised things would be different, I stayed, and now we have two children. Who by the way mean the world to me and if I could go back and change anything, I wouldn’t, because then I wouldn’t have them.
> 
> But things haven’t really changed. This is because he can change his behavior on some level, try to work on himself and be a better husband, give me everything I need (I need a lot of freedom I always say, but right now I feel like this is just a need for being away from him because his negativity and his down-putting comments (or belittling jokes as you say) they wear me down too) – eh, where was I. Well so yes he tries and still when I think about my future, I don’t picture him in it. It hurts me to say this but this is true.
> 
> So recently, actually around the same time you broke the news to your husband, I told him I wanted a divorce. He cried his heart out again and after that, he left for a few days to give both of us some room to breathe and to think. All the time he was gone from our home – where I stayed – I felt so relieved. It felt right. Again, it pains me to say this, but it did. It was like for the first time in many years I was able to be myself. And this is in a home that has not ever totally felt like mine anyway, because like yours, my husband has very high standards for living and essentially we bought a house that accommodates to his needs but isn’t necessarily what I would have chosen if it were up to me. Throughout the years of our relationship and marriage I seem to have given up on a lot of what makes me me, and now that I read your story just so much of it resonates with me and looking at your situation it’s easy to say: leave! Just leave. The worst that could happen is you become a spinster, and actually that’s not at all as bad as society has made us believe. But why then when I see so many similarities and want to scream at you to get out, is it so hard for me to do it myself?
> 
> Because when after these few days of complete bliss my husband came back home, he was the sweetest imaginable. He expressed his love for me a thousand times even when I was firm about not wanting to continue in this marriage, and eventually, my confidence started to crumble and I was yet again overcome by love for this flawed but beautiful man that I share so much with. Hell, we even have kids together. So we’re trying again. Now, he stopped working for my business and stopped working altogether. This was a choice we made after a long and hard talk because when he did this work, he didn’t manage to do anything else. 15 hours of work per week (whereas I work around 50) was too much for him that he couldn’t even do half of the chores around the house and half of the taking care of our kids. Now he’s not working anymore and he does the whole stay-at-home dad thing, though our kids still go to daycare two afternoons per week for his me-time. He’s slow to change, he needs a lot of time to adjust, and I can’t really say a lot about this now or so he claims; I should be patient for him to prove that he really will step up his game. But for now I just don’t know. I do see, like you do, that he is working on it, but I fear that it is just too little, too late.
> 
> For the longest time, I didn’t know if our relationship was as it should be. I tried to find reasons to leave, ammunition so that when people asked about it, I would be able to explain my choice. Now I know that there doesn’t have to be an explanation. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. Listen to your gut. I will have to listen to mine, too, hard as it may be. I’m still struggling. I tell him how I feel and he keeps on trying to win me back. I wouldn’t even want to be with someone who doesn’t really want to be with me.


HI GGD, you should start a new thread for people to comment on your situation, you will find help here.

I think you have to be straight with him that a man who doesn't man up and support his family financially and sponges off his wife is not attractive to you. He is still young, never too late to get an education, a certification, etc and get back into work. He cries, you capitulate, he continues the cushy life, cant you see he tried to trap you with kids, you are his meal ticket. Not a healthy state and definitely not love.


----------



## googoodoll

aine said:


> HI GGD, you should start a new thread for people to comment on your situation, you will find help here.
> 
> I think you have to be straight with him that a man who doesn't man up and support his family financially and sponges off his wife is not attractive to you. He is still young, never too late to get an education, a certification, etc and get back into work. He cries, you capitulate, he continues the cushy life, cant you see he tried to trap you with kids, you are his meal ticket. Not a healthy state and definitely not love.


Thank you. I didn't really plan for my response to WorkingWife to become so long and so about me... everything she has written is so similar to what I'm going through that it all poured out of me when I was typing this reply. Thank you anyway for your advice, I really appreciate it. I know you're right and all I need is to hear it over and over again and then hope that someday, I will not confuse love and pity anymore.


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## 3Xnocharm

@WorkingWife, how are things going for you?


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## Elizabeth001

3Xnocharm said:


> @WorkingWife, how are things going for you?




I have a pretty good idea 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Yeswecan

Give it time. You have too because what is always said here on TAM is actions speak louder than words. If the new H turns back into the old H in a week then you know it was all a nice gesture and nothing more. If you H is genuine(and I think he is reading your first post about it) a spark may return. It could be the marriage you always wanted it to be. Allow that much for yourself and a your H.


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## turnera

Update, please?


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## WorkingWife

3Xnocharm said:


> I give it six weeks. Within six weeks, he will be reverting back to himself.


So.... I have somewhat of an update. Opinions and feedback are welcome.

I've been staying out of TAM for awhile 'cause I'm just really depressed and figure I need to figure things out for myself. I came in tonight and what do you know? It's been exactly 6 weeks since this post...

Summary of what has happened:

I told him I wanted a divorce.
He swung into action and became a "new person." 
He pushed me to work on things. I resisted.
I left town for about 10 days and stayed in the guest room when I got back.
We went out of town for a trip I had promised him I would go on. While out of town he pushed me again to try to save our marriage.
I felt guilty and said I would try but didn't commit to any time frame.
We got home and life returned to pretty much normal.
Something sparked another discussion and I told him I'd stay and try for 3 months. He said I would be a fool to leave him because he's going to do all these great things and I'll blow it.
He is being wonderful. But, um, no, he really has not changed. He's been steadily working at preparing to market things. I will say he's more excited and enthusiastic than ever before, but I still prefer the thought of my future without him. Then I feel horrible for that because, well, I DID marry him.
We had a tentative trip planned for our wedding anniversary in a few weeks. He asked me about it yesterday and I told him I'd like to go but don't want to spend the money and I still feel like I want a divorce and don't feel right celebrating our marriage.
He said "OK."
I am still in the house and we are being nice to each other but there is definitely tension in the air.
I have business out of town in late Aug. I plan to stay here until then and try to figure out money, how to divorce, where I want to live, how to move my stuff, the dogs,
etc. until then. Unless things get bad. I can spend some time with family or do Air BNB for awhile if necessary.

I feel really bad because he's trying so hard but I just feel like I'm only doing it for him when I think of staying. I was telling a friend how horrible I feel today and she asked me: Do you feel horrible for fear for yourself without him, or bad for him without you?

I realized it's at least 80% bad for him.

I do have the thought that I may regret this someday but that is no stronger than the regret I've been feeling staying. He is my best friend though and I do think I will be very lonely without him. And I feel terrible worrying about what things will be like for him, but he said I should stay to have a great marriage not out of pity for him. I just don't think I can ever have anything more than a "satisfactory" marriage with him.


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## WorkingWife

Elizabeth001 said:


> I have a pretty good idea
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do not roll your eyes at me woman!!! I've been getting enough of that from family and friends. LOL. 

I am sorry I didn't respond to you, 3xnocharm, and Turnera, and others. I went on a hiatus from here while I was trying to figure things out.

I just did an update above this post. H is being as wonderful as he can, but I just cannot muster any enthusiasm for our marriage. I've been trying to play along and see if I can get there but I don't think I can. Right now, I plan to divorce. I told him that yesterday. Things are civil but awkward. As long as we are able to get along without too much pain, I plan to stay here 2 - 3 more months while I figure out the logistics of actually moving. 

Filing for divorce is a daunting idea given what the attorneys told me, but I am hoping he and I can come to an agreement between us regarding the business and spousal support. Hopefully our current friendship/civility will not turn into malice as things progress.


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## WorkingWife

Yeswecan said:


> Give it time. You have too because what is always said here on TAM is actions speak louder than words. If the new H turns back into the old H in a week then you know it was all a nice gesture and nothing more. If you H is genuine(and I think he is reading your first post about it) a spark may return. It could be the marriage you always wanted it to be. Allow that much for yourself and a your H.


Thank you YesWeCan! Most of what I have heard from family and some friends the last few weeks really assigns malicious motives to my H. It actually makes me feel very defensive of him. Our marriage has been a huge disappointment to me but I played my part in that and it's not like he has been deliberately treating me poorly.

I have been trying to give it some time and one minute I feel heart broken to think of leaving him, and the next I just feel like I'm being held captive. We get along well and I do love him and care for him, but every cell in my body seems to be screaming "run" regardless. 

I do think he has made some real changes (and many imagined ones). And I would not say there is no "spark" because I find him attractive. But I have been observing his general personality while I've been giving it time and I realize that even if he was working full time, and doing all the other "things" I wish he'd done these last many years, I really just think I would be much happier with someone else, or possibly even alone.

I feel really crappy about that because I married him and he is doing all he can to make things better now, but I feel a physical pain in my chest (literally) when I think of spending the rest of my life married to him. I feel fear of loneliness if I leave and am alone the rest of my life, and it may be a big mistake, but right now I do plan to divorce and have told him that I still want a divorce.

Thanks for your support.


----------



## Satya

Here are some thoughts. I tend to be kind of direct in my posts but appreciate you need to do things your way, @WorkingWife. 

It sounds like he's doing too little, too late. Try not to feel guilty, because you did your best previously to be very clear with him about what you needed. It's not wrong for you to want an equal contributing partner, provided that person has the mental and physical capability of doing so. 

There are some people in this world I call "failures to launch" and while it sounds like a harsh judgement, I can't really think of them in any other way. I think your husband is one such failure to launch. He never really took off and became self sufficient. Maybe with you (as we've discussed previously in this post) he never felt the need or desire to launch, whether because he got comfortable or because he was intimidated by your drive or because he simply feared the effort involved. Failures to launch are always huge works in progress and often take the liberty of moving at THEIR pace. Problem is, the world waits for no one. 

Maybe he had no solid male role models and maybe he had an enabling mother. Maybe we could have a field day trying to armchair analyze his childhood. The point is, he is as he is and is not likely to change radically. Let's say that you leave him and he miraculously changes for the better. Are you going to feel more guilty about a.) all the years you missed out on these improvements (sunken cost) or b.) the fact it took your departure to effect radical change in him? Think about it... Under those circumstances, he'd be incapable of bettering himself until he HAS TO FOR HIS CONTINUING SURVIVAL. That's a child's reaction to a "life is tough" scenario. Would you really feel guilty to lose someone like that? I know I wouldn't, regardless of how many memories we built, because that person would fundamentally be inadequate to meet my needs in a partner.

Some times things just don't work out long term, no matter how hard you try, and that's OK. I think you need to allow yourself the expectation of others being capable of looking out for themselves.


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## WorkingWife

Oh my God, GooGooDoll -- you are my sister from another mister!

I am so sorry I am only just now reading this because I stayed out of here while "trying to work it out" so I would not be influenced by others opinions.

I have not searched TAM yet to see if you started your own thread, but based on this alone, I will say -- RUN GooGoo, RUN!

Of course it is amazing how CRYSTAL clear other people's situations are. 

I have several comments on your post so I am just going to make them RED instead of trying to break your quote into pieces.



googoodoll said:


> Dearest WorkingWife, I’ve read your topics from start to finish and it’s just uncanny how many parallels there are between you and me, your husband and mine, the whole relationship dynamic and even where we are right now. The biggest difference I guess is that I’m 20 years younger than you and we do have children, which I’ll get to later on. Other than that it’s pretty much entirely the same story.
> 
> 20 years younger? leave NOW. You have so much time left (hopefully) to have such a different outcome. It took me to age 50+ when it was too late to have kids and I have no retirement to realized -- crap, I'm not that old! I can have the live I want to make for myself.
> 
> When my husband and I met, I was seventeen and he was twenty. He’d been in a relationship that did not fit him and when he met me, he was immediately over the moon: I was so different! I fell for him too because we had a lot in common and to be fair, I was totally unexperienced and did not know what I was supposed to feel. Throughout our relationship, I have always had a sort of nagging doubt, sometimes almost non-existent, sometimes very prominent, [YES. YES. YES. Our entire relationship I have been trying to talk myself into it. Making up excuses for him. Trying to intellectualize why I should stay even though I don't feel it.] but every time I voiced this doubt or told him I didn’t like the way things were going or anything, he convinced me to stay because our relationship was the stuff that (his) dreams were made of. [Again, YES. In my case he tells me how miserable everyone else is and I just don't appreciate how great our marriage is. Show him any couple and he will show me they have problems and no one is as happy as they pretend. I doubt my feelings and feel obligated to stay.] I let myself believe in that and I did always love him very much and still do, but sometimes I do wonder if we’re a good match/if we’ve ever been a good match – I feel the same as you, that we can get along fine but it’s not really that special sort of love. [Exactly. And if you are like me you also probably know that you get along great because YOU can get along with anyone... I was talking with a girlfriend today telling her the good things about our union and about 5 seconds in I just stopped and admitted - there's really nothing that we have that I could not have with someone else as a relationship minimum standard.] Although as your husband does, he also tells me that he loves my quirks and wants to have a ‘happy, bubbly [my name]’, because I am happy and bubbly and I bring a lot of that into his life probably, besides bringing a lot more too – which, again, I’ll get to.
> 
> As the years passed, he quit his education because he couldn’t make it work (now, looking back, I feel like he didn’t put in enough effort) and started working a part-time underpaid job. All the while I was graduating and starting work and later on building my own business, which thrived. Then at some point he lost his part-time job too and became unemployed, and he couldn’t manage to find a new job. So then I also enabled him to work (for around 15 hours per week) in my business, which I regret now because it made him even more dependent on me, but at that point I didn’t feel like I had a choice: it was either this – it seemed to make him happy – or watch him be depressed and unable to get out of this because he wasn’t able to find work. [YEP] Again, looking back, I don’t think he put in a lot of effort.
> 
> During this time, there came a point when I was done with it and told him so. Then I made the worst mistake I could have made. He bawled like a baby and I felt so sorry for him and I also felt so much pain, because I do love him, so his pain is my pain too, and I don’t want him to hurt. Somewhere within this dynamic he cried out: “I want to have children with you!” (i.e.: “Don’t do this to me, don’t throw away this future!”) [OMG, I wanted to adopt from the foster system and he swore he did too, but dragged his feet for 10 years so it never happened. Now when I want a divorce he is "changed" and wants foster kids so bad! Except once I drop the subject he never brings it up, but that was the primary thing making me consider staying - his insistence that he was serious (now) about getting foster kids.] Because I felt sorry and because I love him and because he promised things would be different, I stayed, and now we have two children. Who by the way mean the world to me and if I could go back and change anything, I wouldn’t, because then I wouldn’t have them.
> 
> But things haven’t really changed. This is because he can change his behavior on some level, try to work on himself and be a better husband, give me everything I need (I need a lot of freedom I always say, but right now I feel like this is just a need for being away from him because his negativity and his down-putting comments (or belittling jokes as you say) they wear me down too) – eh, where was I. Well so yes he tries and still when I think about my future, I don’t picture him in it. It hurts me to say this but this is true.
> [My H has completely stopped the belittling jokes and apologized and said it was because he felt so bad about himself. I appreciate that but his general personality is always to joke about everything and I just don't like it, which I feel guilty about, but there it is.]
> So recently, actually around the same time you broke the news to your husband, I told him I wanted a divorce. He cried his heart out again and after that, he left for a few days to give both of us some room to breathe and to think. All the time he was gone from our home – where I stayed – I felt so relieved. It felt right. Again, it pains me to say this, but it did. It was like for the first time in many years I was able to be myself. And this is in a home that has not ever totally felt like mine anyway, because like yours, my husband has very high standards for living and essentially we bought a house that accommodates to his needs but isn’t necessarily what I would have chosen if it were up to me. [BINGO. And my H said he would live anywhere with me when I said I wanted a divorce, but within a couple weeks he's back to looking at water front properties and homes we can't afford. He has lowered his standards some, but still -- what is he thinking? We don't have the money for what he wants. He thinks he's going to make a bunch any day now... At this point I realized that if I won the lottery and suddenly had all the money in the world, my desire would be to give him half and leave. It would not be to live in his dream mansion with him. And I do feel bad about that but it is true.]
> Throughout the years of our relationship and marriage I seem to have given up on a lot of what makes me me [That is TOTALLY how I feel. I don't blame him for this, I blame myself, I should have seen it at the start and not let it happen but I have a history of doing that with men. And it didn't help that he ridiculed and/or did not understand the things that I felt made me me. He still insists that is my imagination, that it's normal to feel that way in a relationship, there are always compromises -- but I feel frustrated that the qualities I consider the core of who I am and the best parts of me, he does not "get" or appreciate. Then I wonder if I'm just a needy woman who will never be satisfied with any man.] and now that I read your story just so much of it resonates with me and looking at your situation it’s easy to say: leave! Just leave. The worst that could happen is you become a spinster, and actually that’s not at all as bad as society has made us believe. But why then when I see so many similarities and want to scream at you to get out, is it so hard for me to do it myself?
> 
> Because when after these few days of complete bliss my husband came back home, he was the sweetest imaginable. He expressed his love for me a thousand times even when I was firm about not wanting to continue in this marriage, and eventually, my confidence started to crumble and I was yet again overcome by love for this flawed but beautiful man that I share so much with. [Were you really overcome with love, or was it just too much work to keep saying no to him, like you could not defend your reasons and felt guilty for rejecting him when he was "trying so hard" and "loved/needed" you so much? Also, I noticed that when I have conflict with my H I actually feel more love for him (temporarily). I think it may be the reality that this could end, or just the intensity of emotions fills a need of mine and makes me feel closer to him. ]Hell, we even have kids together. So we’re trying again. Now, he stopped working for my business and stopped working altogether. This was a choice we made after a long and hard talk because when he did this work, he didn’t manage to do anything else. 15 hours of work per week (whereas I work around 50) was too much for him that he couldn’t even do half of the chores around the house and half of the taking care of our kids. Now he’s not working anymore and he does the whole stay-at-home dad thing, though our kids still go to daycare two afternoons per week for his me-time. He’s slow to change, he needs a lot of time to adjust, and I can’t really say a lot about this now or so he claims; I should be patient for him to prove that he really will step up his game. But for now I just don’t know. I do see, like you do, that he is working on it, but I fear that it is just too little, too late.
> 
> For the longest time, I didn’t know if our relationship was as it should be. I tried to find reasons to leave, ammunition so that when people asked about it, I would be able to explain my choice. Now I know that there doesn’t have to be an explanation. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. Listen to your gut. I will have to listen to mine, too, hard as it may be. I’m still struggling. I tell him how I feel and he keeps on trying to win me back. I wouldn’t even want to be with someone who doesn’t really want to be with me.[So how are things going now? One big clue for me was that I was actually disappointed when he changed for the better because there went my justification for leaving.]


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## WorkingWife

Satya said:


> Here are some thoughts. I tend to be kind of direct in my posts but appreciate you need to do things your way, @WorkingWife.
> 
> It sounds like he's doing too little, too late. Try not to feel guilty, because you did your best previously to be very clear with him about what you needed. It's not wrong for you to want an equal contributing partner, provided that person has the mental and physical capability of doing so.
> 
> There are some people in this world I call "failures to launch" and while it sounds like a harsh judgement, I can't really think of them in any other way. I think your husband is one such failure to launch. He never really took off and became self sufficient. Maybe with you (as we've discussed previously in this post) he never felt the need or desire to launch, whether because he got comfortable or because he was intimidated by your drive or because he simply feared the effort involved. Failures to launch are always huge works in progress and often take the liberty of moving at THEIR pace. Problem is, the world waits for no one.
> 
> Maybe he had no solid male role models and maybe he had an enabling mother. Maybe we could have a field day trying to armchair analyze his childhood. The point is, he is as he is and is not likely to change radically. Let's say that you leave him and he miraculously changes for the better. Are you going to feel more guilty about a.) all the years you missed out on these improvements (sunken cost) or b.) the fact it took your departure to effect radical change in him? Think about it... Under those circumstances, he'd be incapable of bettering himself until he HAS TO FOR HIS CONTINUING SURVIVAL. That's a child's reaction to a "life is tough" scenario. Would you really feel guilty to lose someone like that? I know I wouldn't, regardless of how many memories we built, because that person would fundamentally be inadequate to meet my needs in a partner.
> 
> Some times things just don't work out long term, no matter how hard you try, and that's OK. I think you need to allow yourself the expectation of others being capable of looking out for themselves.


Thank you. 

If he becomes Mr. Money overnight I will be a little bitter about all the years and opportunities (children) I sacrificed coddling him, and a little guilty that I enabled his underachieving -- but I will mostly be relieved. I realized recently that even if he became a millionairre that would not make me happier - less stressed, sure, but my needs that are not getting met are emotional. Beyond security and peace of mind, I don't have a strong interest in money/material things.

BTW - His father did not work and spent all the money his mom made. But he was also alcoholic. My H is not. His mom told me she thought of divorcing his dad many times but then thought -- where will he go? what will he do? I realize that's the reason I've stayed with him so long. But I don't want to be with someone out of pity/concern. AND my wanting a divorce DOES seem to be his awakening. If it takes my leaving for him to live up to his potential, well, that's a lot of years wasted for both of us but no use crying over spilled milk. I'm still healthy and young feeling at this moment. Carpe Diem.


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## turnera

Tell him you'll give him a year to prove himself - from another house - before you officially move on. If he can get his crap together in that year, you'll date him again and see if there's anything there.

I have HUGE issues with my H, but if he fixed the one big thing I hate the most, I think I might start caring about him again. It's funny how the mind turns you against someone when your needs aren't being met, but when they're met, you see that person in a whole new light.

You'd see in that year if he actually did learn to grow up and be a productive citizen. You never know.


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## Yeswecan

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you YesWeCan! Most of what I have heard from family and some friends the last few weeks really assigns malicious motives to my H. It actually makes me feel very defensive of him. Our marriage has been a huge disappointment to me but I played my part in that and it's not like he has been deliberately treating me poorly.
> 
> I have been trying to give it some time and one minute I feel heart broken to think of leaving him, and the next I just feel like I'm being held captive. We get along well and I do love him and care for him, but every cell in my body seems to be screaming "run" regardless.
> 
> I do think he has made some real changes (and many imagined ones). And I would not say there is no "spark" because I find him attractive. But I have been observing his general personality while I've been giving it time and I realize that even if he was working full time, and doing all the other "things" I wish he'd done these last many years, I really just think I would be much happier with someone else, or possibly even alone.
> 
> I feel really crappy about that because I married him and he is doing all he can to make things better now, but I feel a physical pain in my chest (literally) when I think of spending the rest of my life married to him. I feel fear of loneliness if I leave and am alone the rest of my life, and it may be a big mistake, but right now I do plan to divorce and have told him that I still want a divorce.
> 
> Thanks for your support.


At the end of the day only you can make you happy. I get the idea from your post that no matter what your H does in attempt to make it the marriage you want it will be a wasted effort. Your mind is made up. I do not believe giving 3 months to figure out the marriage is the best course. You have stated you wanted a divorce and making plans to do so. With that said and your earlier post things like anniversary plans are canceled, etc. Best course of action as to not lead on that there my be a chance. 

Sorry the marriage did not work out. Being truthful to yourself is best. Good luck in your future.


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## googoodoll

WorkingWife said:


> Oh my God, GooGooDoll -- you are my sister from another mister!
> 
> I am so sorry I am only just now reading this because I stayed out of here while "trying to work it out" so I would not be influenced by others opinions.
> 
> I have not searched TAM yet to see if you started your own thread, but based on this alone, I will say -- RUN GooGoo, RUN!
> 
> Of course it is amazing how CRYSTAL clear other people's situations are.
> 
> I have several comments on your post so I am just going to make them RED instead of trying to break your quote into pieces.


WOW. All of this and AMEN.

Two things. Yes, I've also thought about what would happen if we win the lottery. Besides, I never enter, it's him who buys the tickets for some sort of dream. Anyhow I've imagined it too, and it would make me so happy that we could buy two houses in the same street and live apart whilst our children would be able to walk from one house to the other. So yeah. Very true.

Also the last clue you point out, that his better behavior actually SUCKS because it gives you less reason to leave him, is so recognizable. All we want is out, out, out! I know where you are, I'm there too, it feels like limbo, it's terrible. Our only hope lies within ourselves. We have to push through. We HAVE to.

One more question: did you at some point also question your own sanity? I know I have, and it's awful. Everything just gets so messed up in my head.


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## WorkingWife

googoodoll said:


> One more question: did you at some point also question your own sanity? I know I have, and it's awful. Everything just gets so messed up in my head.


I have not questioned my sanity as in am I insane or imagining things? But I have wondered if I am looking for something in a relationship that does not exist. I have tried to talk myself into being satisfied but like you there has been this nagging feeling, always. Sometimes barely there, sometimes super strong. 

The fact that my girlfriends who have known me our entire relationship root for me to get out of this relationship is one thing that tells me I'm not crazy for wanting a spouse that is financially stable and wants many of the same things I do in life. But then there is the fact that most of these people are not in great relationships themselves. That makes me think I should make sure I'm happier with the idea of being alone than staying with him. 

He will constantly tell me that "happiness comes from inside" and "the grass is always greener." I know these things are true to some extent. But they also feel like an excuse: "It's not my fault my wife is miserable being married to me, she is responsible for her own happiness, after all..." OK, so then why does it matter who we marry or if we stay together or not? Happiness may come from inside, but UNhappiness can definitely come from OUTside! 

I AM happy by nature. I think. I've never had a great relationship though so it does get in my head that maybe I just can't be satisfied. Actually, I was madly in love with my first husband until he wouldn't stop going out drinking without me 3 - 5 nights a week for years on end. But I've gotten so little from my current husband, and men in the past, that my brain tells me the opposite is true - I feel unhappy because I have expected and accepted way too little.

I now know I must get out of this marriage. But I do like being in a relationship and I worry that I'll end up going from short term relationship to short term relationship in search of "the one" if I don't get to the bottom of what is wrong with my man picker. 

So, that kind of self-doubt crazy? Yes. Literally insane crazy? No. At least not yet... :wink2:


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## googoodoll

WorkingWife said:


> I have not questioned my sanity as in am I insane or imagining things? But I have wondered if I am looking for something in a relationship that does not exist. I have tried to talk myself into being satisfied but like you there has been this nagging feeling, always. Sometimes barely there, sometimes super strong.
> 
> The fact that my girlfriends who have known me our entire relationship root for me to get out of this relationship is one thing that tells me I'm not crazy for wanting a spouse that is financially stable and wants many of the same things I do in life. But then there is the fact that most of these people are not in great relationships themselves. That makes me think I should make sure I'm happier with the idea of being alone than staying with him.
> 
> He will constantly tell me that "happiness comes from inside" and "the grass is always greener." I know these things are true to some extent. But they also feel like an excuse: "It's not my fault my wife is miserable being married to me, she is responsible for her own happiness, after all..." OK, so then why does it matter who we marry or if we stay together or not? Happiness may come from inside, but UNhappiness can definitely come from OUTside!
> 
> I AM happy by nature. I think. I've never had a great relationship though so it does get in my head that maybe I just can't be satisfied. Actually, I was madly in love with my first husband until he wouldn't stop going out drinking without me 3 - 5 nights a week for years on end. But I've gotten so little from my current husband, and men in the past, that my brain tells me the opposite is true - I feel unhappy because I have expected and accepted way too little.
> 
> I now know I must get out of this marriage. But I do like being in a relationship and I worry that I'll end up going from short term relationship to short term relationship in search of "the one" if I don't get to the bottom of what is wrong with my man picker.
> 
> So, that kind of self-doubt crazy? Yes. Literally insane crazy? No. At least not yet... :wink2:


I don’t think I’m imagining things, that’s not it. It’s just that my husband blames me for anything that goes wrong and when I make a mistake, he’ll tell me: I told you so (or something along those lines). Also because he’s been quite controlling, I’ve somewhat internalized this voice of his. So now anytime I’m talking to people or trying to make up my mind, I have to remind myself that I need to be fully me. 

The thing you write about what you’re looking for in a relationship is something I wonder about too. I think if you’re trying to talk yourself into being satisfied, that’s not good. The rule I want to live by from now is: if I’d rather be alone than be with someone, I choose to be alone. So, as you write too, you should be happier with the idea of being alone than staying with him. And I think you are. Besides, a lot of people are in lousy relationship, that’s true. Please never let that be a reason to stay in a lousy relationship yourself.

The things your husband says made me laugh. He should hang out with my husband, they’ll be so happy together with what comes from inside both of them. Nah, that’s not nice of me. I agree with your husband, happiness comes from inside. But what I’ve experienced is that I was very happy inside, and in nearly every situation or relationship, except for my core relationship. That’s not good. I really needed to refuel frequently with other people or by myself in order to handle it. Looking back, it’s ridiculous. I don’t understand how I kept it going for so long.

I believe you are happy by nature and I believe there is a relationship that can satisfy you. This all-fulfilling relationship is the relationship with yourself. Work on that. Go to therapy, by yourself, for as long as you need. Talk about your man-picker and about anything else that comes up. Go on nature retreats if that’s something you would enjoy, or join a singles trip to encounter joyful new people. You’ll be alright.


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## turnera

People shouldn't be stuck staying with a person who tears them down. What's the point?

A marriage is supposed to be of two best friends who prop each other UP. If you don't have that, you don't have a real marriage.

And don't forget that most of us have our own dysfunctions - very few of us are really mentally healthy, fully loving ourselves and secure - and thus we seek out OTHER people with dysfunctions. In other words, our 'picker' is broken. So the people we gravitate towards are often harmful to us. So just because you married someone it doesn't mean you should stay with them. Admit you made a mistake choosing them and move on (and get therapy to fix your picker for the next time).


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