# The Making of the Nice Guy?



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Have a read of Afraid to Rage: The Origins of Passive-Aggressive Behavior at Afraid to Rage: The Origins of Passive-Aggressive Behavior | Psychology Today.

Personally I think this is how Nice Guys (and Nice Girls) are made, how they are created.

If you are a Nice Guy and want to change, see first if you are a passive aggressive by taking on-line tests. If you are, I think changing your passive aggressive ways will bring the biggest rewards in your life and to those around.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

Pretty good article. It nailed me.


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## JoeRockStar (Jun 5, 2012)

Interesting....

I pretty much nailed down when I became a "Nice Guy" with my wife. It all started when her brother committed suicide about 13 years ago. She was understandably VERY distraught and I fell into a cycle of coddling her in hopes of helping to ease the pain. This became a habit and got reinforced when her mom developed lung cancer and eventually passed away.

Prior to all that, our relationship was VERY different as was my role. It will be a year Friday since her mom passed away and I have told her very gently that I will no longer coddle her after this, it's time to pick herself up. Hope I can stick to my guns on this.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Have you read the book AFEH? Most Nice Guy’s got it from their childhood as the article suggest. But we also carry it into all our relationships like some sort of coping skill. The lesson we learned is people like us IF we can just chameleon into who they seem to want us to be. We learned if we get straight A’s, behave, make those around us laugh, console those in pain, etc., that in return people will accept us, love us, and want to be with us. There are even ‘tough guys’ who are NG’s because being tough and getting in fights is who they think those around them would want; They may like the guys and the respect, but they don’t like the fighting... Being who we think you want: It’s pretty much the NG motto.

Now a lot of us know this isn’t a bad thing in and of itself. We just went a bit deeper into it than most. Our lives became a juggling act of just trying to not let anyone down. Ever tried to make everyone happy? You can’t. Enter a frustration and beating yourself up as a failure; It is the perception thing regardless of whether anyone tells you or not, you assume they see you as a failure. Add to this all that bottled up anger because we aren’t really doing what we want to do, we’re doing what you wanted us to do (parents, spouses, kids, friends, bosses, etc.). You don’t feel like you have much control. And, in our minds, this is a barter; I’m who you said you wanted, now give me what I want (like that article, but extended to everyone around us). When you don’t....

Enter the passive/aggressive traits. We have growing anger because we don’t receive what we believe we’ve earned. It can’t be fixed by addressing one subset of relationships and exploring our youth. They aren’t even really the problem; It’s you... How you got there doesn’t matter as much as that you are there. It’s a external validation thing to the extreme.

What NMMNG does is takes you through a series of steps so you can break that idea that people have all these expectations of you and will stop accepting you if you don’t live up to it. Then it has you look deep inward and follow your gut. Your true self. So basically, you are deciding who you should be and what your actions are. If you are a giver and that makes you happy with yourself, that’s perfectly fine. You just learn to accept who you are is ok and the world owes you nothing in exchange.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Racer, I was married to the female equivalent of the Nice Guy for 37 years and with her for forty-two years. She had outstanding qualities but I was on the receiving end of her passive aggression once too many times and so it ended.

Unless PAs deal with their wounds and anger in healthy ways it gets worse and worse over the years, until it becomes intolerable.

We all get hurt and wounded. PAs and Nice Guys just don’t deal with their wounds in healthy ways. To me it seems more important to them that they keep their wounds open and festering than it ever is to actually heal them. I think one of the reasons is so they can blame others for their failures.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks AFEH... My wife was the opposite of a PA. She does the tantrum and boundary pushing thing like a child to try and get her wants and needs. So, mixing my NG PA traits with her tantrums spelled disaster for me. Almost opposite methods to get attention, love and acceptance. I'd just infuriate her, and she'd always escalate until I caved.... So, I had to change to challenge that tantrum method head on and she had to change to start seeing how 'being nice' really wasn't a expectation she should have (thus devalue), but my way of trying for her..


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Racer said:


> Thanks AFEH... My wife was the opposite of a PA. She does the tantrum and boundary pushing thing like a child to try and get her wants and needs. So, mixing my NG PA traits with her tantrums spelled disaster for me. Almost opposite methods to get attention, love and acceptance. I'd just infuriate her, and she'd always escalate until I caved.... So, I had to change to challenge that tantrum method head on and she had to change to start seeing how 'being nice' really wasn't a expectation she should have (thus devalue), but my way of trying for her..


I think I’m the opposite of a PA as well. We do like to be up front and very open with our feelings and every thing else. The inner world of the PA is a really strange and very difficult place for us to get to know. Not least because of the PAs very secretive nature and unwillingness to talk about their feelings.

I think the PA’s world would be exceedingly different if they only knew how people like us are always ready to forgive. But most of us live through our projections and so the PA believes we are more or less the same as them, unforgiving. We’re not. We are opposites which makes us as difficult to understand as themselves.

We like things done and dusted, over and done with so we can easily move on into the future with no baggage from our past being dragged along with us. That’s one of the key reasons why we will confront issues until they are resolved and if conflict happens it happens.

PAs can at times be a nightmare for assertive people to live with. And of course I’m sure the very opposite is true as well.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

After reading that article I feel like I even fail at being passive aggressive.

I am an anomoly I guess.

One thing I think is a lot of people have the wrong idea that passive aggression is switching between two states, passivity then aggression - it clearly is not, it is plainly passivity, but then coming up with a coping method of dealing with unmet needs.

As for me, never once in my life have I felt me "needs" were unmet, but perhaps its because I have never really recognized my own needs. As a child I truly can't ever recall being neglected or punished - of course I wouldn't recall it if I didn't have an outsiders perspective, but I can easily see it in others. But my childhood memories have always stayed with me, not once can I ever remember receiving a spanking, though I was yelled at often when my behavior (usually fighting with my younger brother, the antagonist who DID always get spankings stressed out my mother). Sometimes was frustrating that it was out of my control. My dad had drinking problem and got pretty short tempered and raised his voice at my mother a lot.

But none of it was ever directed AT me, I was always the observer and I think my passive aggression manifests in conflict avoidance. Combined with my highly intuitive personality I find I am so sensitive to conflict that I can easily change my course long before anyone seems to ever realize conflict is coming down the pipe. Until recently, and I wonder if subconsciously it was deliberate, I have never made a single enemy - there was one kid in gr.6 that seemed to want to fight me, and I didn't like him, but it was no big deal for me to say "meet you at the swings after school then" and simply not show up - everyone just seemed to forget. It feels really impossible to challenge myself because I don't even engage. I was bullied badly in gr.4 and 5 (before moving to a new school) and the other kids probably thought it was insignificant or maybe even still liked me.

Anyways the point I want to make about myself is that conflict avoidance makes for a very lonely life - it has probably been over 15 years since I moved away from my hometown that any friends other than my now ex w has called me on the phone simply to chat... I have one friend that will text me every few months to invite me to come watch a salsa performance, other than that nobody ever, ever calls me it is sad and depressing. If I try really hard making myself visible to my friendly coworkers I may be included in a golf tournament or something, and if I work at it by facebooking, going out to every activity I can, and calling everyone I know I can get occasionally get myself included in some event, but it feels like at any given moment I am never on anyone's mind. It is so much beyond just always being the one to call first, it feels like complete isolation. I hate the loneliness.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon, passive anger is covert (secret, clandestine, underground, stealthy, concealed, hidden) anger. Anger that is never shown. Active anger is overt (obvious, unconcealed, explicit, evident, open, clear, plain, blatant).

With active anger it is very clear what you are dealing with. With passive anger you don’t even know it’s there you feel it’s affects.

Personally I feel active anger is an honest anger whereas passive anger is a two faced anger.

In their extremes both types of anger can be deadly. The point is that both types of anger are, well anger! They are anger expressed in very different and opposite ways.

But with active anger at least you know its there and you can deal with it. Passive anger on the other hand is like a malignant cancer in a marriage that one day has created such havoc and deep internal wounds just kills the marriage off.


You will have anger inside of you Lon. Anger is one of the five or six base human emotions and it’s there for exceptionally good reasons.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I agree, the anger must be there, I don't always feel it, it is one of my weaker emotions... or perhaps it is just so passive I can't even notice it, and never considered it a personal problem. I do know I have some self-destructive traits (procrastination, avoidance etc) as to how that manifests in relationships with others I genuinely don't know - I do know I strive for complete honesty and authenticity, I hope I am on the right track.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You know Lon social skills are exceedingly easy. All you have to be is interested in the other person. That’s it. It really is that simple.

You demonstrate your interest by asking the other person questions. That’s all you do. So in say an hours chat, you may have spoken for 5 minutes and the other person for 55 minutes. Guess what? The other person will go away thinking they’ve had an excellent conversation and what a truly great and interesting person you are!

If you really want to make yourself interesting and interact with like minded people then get yourself two or three passions and become an expert in them!

On the other hand you could be massively self-defacing, self-defeating and negative. The choice as they say is yours to make.

If you are depressed, get yourself a camera and get out and photograph some of the wonders of nature. Then you will see the beauty that’s all around you that you are absolutely blinded to right now.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> I agree, the anger must be there, I don't always feel it, it is one of my weaker emotions... or perhaps it is just so passive I can't even notice it, and never considered it a personal problem. I do know I have some self-destructive traits (procrastination, avoidance etc) as to how that manifests in relationships with others I genuinely don't know - I do know I strive for complete honesty and authenticity, I hope I am on the right track.


I saw your photo in the Social section. You are absolutely filled with potential. Suppressing ANY of your emotions including anger will never get you even close to what you are capable of.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

You are not hearing what I am saying though: I am not suppressing anything, certainly not trying to and certainly not self-aware of any suppression. I know there is beauty in this world all around me, I have very good social skills, it honestly just feels like its the rest of the world that doesn't conform to my perfect view of it.

And believe me I have been introspective enough, especially in the past year, to know that I genuinely don't feel like I'm negative or holding back, though I do feel completely drained and clinging to life... so there is something broken in me that I can't figure out because as many great qualities and blessings I have, it is just all so empty feeling, and yeah nowhere near what I think I should be capable of.

As for interest in other people, maybe that is my hangup, maybe I need some kind of acknowledgement, because I really am tired of trying to be interested in other people, its the same old story and variations and it is always completely selfish and I'm tired of having nobody reciprocate interest in me - I can work and work at it, like I do on here, to garner interest in me, but the moment I let up the world around me drops off, like its literally all on my own shoulders.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Lon said:


> You are not hearing what I am saying though: I am not suppressing anything, certainly not trying to and certainly not self-aware of any suppression. I know there is beauty in this world all around me, I have very good social skills, it honestly just feels like its the rest of the world that doesn't conform to my perfect view of it.
> 
> And believe me I have been introspective enough, especially in the past year, to know that I genuinely don't feel like I'm negative or holding back, though I do feel completely drained and clinging to life... so there is something broken in me that I can't figure out because as many great qualities and blessings I have, it is just all so empty feeling, and yeah nowhere near what I think I should be capable of.
> 
> As for interest in other people, maybe that is my hangup, maybe I need some kind of acknowledgement, because I really am tired of trying to be interested in other people, its the same old story and variations and it is always completely selfish and I'm tired of having nobody reciprocate interest in me - I can work and work at it, like I do on here, to garner interest in me, but the moment I let up the world around me drops off, like its literally all on my own shoulders.


Well I showed interest in you and your exceedingly negative, poor me responses have driven me away. Maybe you do that to others as well Lon. If you do drive others away, you own that, nobody else. If you are as seriously depressed as you sound, you own that as well, nobody else does.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

argh dude, I am not being negative!! I am just baffled and curious. Give me one example where I demonstrated a "poor me" attitude.

I know I own whatever is going on my life, I'm just trying to work through this because if I'm driving people away, like you suggest I am doing, I really genuinely want to know why so I can figure out how not to or atleast know what to do to feel engaged in life again, because I honestly do not see how I could even be close to being perceived as a negative person. I have even been told I'm too enthusiastic often. Just what am I missing is my big question.

So how do I genuinely show interest, and keep myself engaged? Please I am open to suggestions. Though, and please don't take this negatively, I really don't think you can relate to what I'm asking Bob (how did it come to be I always knew this is your name, that baffles me too).


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Lon said:


> So how do I genuinely show interest, and keep myself engaged? Please I am open to suggestions. Though, and please don't take this negatively, I really don't think you can relate to what I'm asking Bob (how did it come to be I always knew this is your name, that baffles me too).


It is an extremely hard one to put a finger on. Even reading through your post, it is difficult to figure out what you are asking for. So, its frustrating on our end hearing how you are embracing all your feelings, have no enemies, strive to be a better person, etc.,.. but your frustration shows without being able to identify what the issue is beyond seemingly wanting attention. The telltale was this statement:


Lon said:


> I can work and work at it, like I do on here, *to garner interest in me*, but the moment I let up the world around me drops off, like its literally all on my own shoulders.


You seem to be approaching it from the wrong side. You are worried about your failure to garner interest? I can see why... you’ve spent a lot of this thread about PA and twisted it to ‘how do I make people like me’ (a completely different subject and new topic). 

I’m guessing that due to that worry, you try too hard. This results in people sensing the manipulation and they put their guard up. You know, one of those guys who is a know it all, has to comment on everything, and obviously doesn’t know what he’s talking so he changes the topic to areas he's more interested in? So, you are allowed to interact with the herd but aren’t ever a part of it... Just read your postings on this passive-aggressive thread and notice how you quickly stopped talking about that and your experiences and derailed to a 'why don't people like me'.. 

Stop trying so hard. You might read “They Game” a pick-up artist book. It has very specific missions in there to raise self-esteem and read people. “No More Mr. Nice Guy” and “The Way of the Superior Man” might also be of interest. Another good start is learn to stay on topic or start your own conversation (like a new thread).

And no, I'm not offended or anything like that. That it's twisted this way is no skin off my shoulders. Its just interesting to me that you can't see it yourself, yet feel 'self-aware'. Sometimes an outside perspective can help you see.......


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Racer, thanks for the well articulated reply. I think I understand that its difficult to follow what I'm asking for, because I don't really feel I clearly know what I am asking for either. I certainly wasn't trying to twist this thread or go off topic, but I usually try to get it on a bit of a tangent to get a different perspective on the topic and hope it gets brought back in.

Perhaps just wanting some attention is why I did this... as for people "wanting to like me" I can figure out how to not offend, and I know how to get people to not dislike me, but I think what I am craving is authenticity in myself and my relationships with others. I realize I'm a big part of the equation, and I am not explicitly trying to have a victim mentality about this, and the way this all relates back to PA, is I'm wondering if it is all just PA that is causing me to be like this, if at some level I'm sabotaging my own happiness (ie just as a nice guy would).

I also received a PM about this thread and the suggestion was perhaps depression is making me focus inward so much as the reason I am struggling to engage meaningfully with others, and this seems to have struck a chord with me too.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Passions Lon, passions. Get some passions in your life, take the focus off of yourself and put it into your passions. Your world will change for the very much better once you take your focus off of yourself and put it into some passions.

You need some things outside of you to be passionate about. It wont take long for you to start filling the void inside of you with passions.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I took.the quiz got very few PA tendencies!! Im a self proclaimed nice guy though wife sits on that pedestal for all to see!! Happy wife happy life


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> I took.the quiz got very few PA tendencies!! Im a self proclaimed nice guy though wife sits on that pedestal for all to see!! Happy wife happy life


What I don’t get is how you can’t see/imagine any marriage circumstances other than your own.

There are some seriously abusive women out there. You match your Nice Guy with the characteristics you’ve described with one of those women and he’s more or less entered marriage hell.

In those circumstances, being Nice just gets the guy more abuse. Much like being Nice gets the woman more abuse from an abusive husband.

Get it?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> I took.the quiz got very few PA tendencies!! Im a self proclaimed nice guy though wife sits on that pedestal for all to see!! Happy wife happy life


So what's your problem?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> I took.the quiz got very few PA tendencies!! Im a self proclaimed nice guy though wife sits on that pedestal for all to see!! Happy wife happy life


I saw your post before you changed it. I thought the original one interesting.

Look. You may in the future become suddenly aware that your wife is human and very much more than a figment of your imagination. You know, that woman you have way up there on the pedestal you have put her on.

If that ever did happen, you would forever stop running around forums saying what a truly nice and great guy you are and what an oh so wonderful marriage you have. At the moment you are talking from a great position of naivety and ignorance.

To me you are tempting fate and you are tempting it very seriously. If you ever do get a wake up call it will, believe me, hit you exceedingly hard, like an express train.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Interesting point, AFEH.

I used to be an introvert. Well, socially stunted. In my twenties I found out by accident how to be socially more adept. I just took an incredible interest in other people during conversations and kept asking questions about their passions and let them do all the talking. I did this out of fear, though. I knew I wasn't a good conversationalist so I tried to keep the other person talking long enough to seem like we just had an amazing conversation. Later I noticed that after these individuals felt comfortable with me, then they would start asking things about my passions. Which, of course, is never hard to talk about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

alphaomega said:


> Interesting point, AFEH.
> 
> I used to be an introvert. Well, socially stunted. In my twenties I found out by accident how to be socially more adept. I just took an incredible interest in other people during conversations and kept asking questions about their passions and let them do all the talking. I did this out of fear, though. I knew I wasn't a good conversationalist so I tried to keep the other person talking long enough to seem like we just had an amazing conversation. Later I noticed that after these individuals felt comfortable with me, then they would start asking things about my passions. Which, of course, is never hard to talk about.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That’s certainly the way it goes. You become an interesting person twice over. One by taking an interest in the other person and two by having your own interests.


But I think you are miss using the term introvert. In that both introverts and extroverts can be socially stunted.

For example my very introverted wife is exceptionally socially aware. And because of that she is well liked and loved by everyone she meets. And I would say that she is liked without exception by anyone, which yes it does seem impossible.

As a socially inept very extroverted person, my wife’s social skills where one of the great attractions I felt for her when we were courting as I thought I would learn a lot from her.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I saw your post before you changed it. I thought the original one interesting.
> 
> Look. You may in the future become suddenly aware that your wife is human and very much more than a figment of your imagination. You know, that woman you have way up there on the pedestal you have put her on.
> 
> ...


I'll keep saying that using tactics to attempt to produce a desired result is just game playing. Same goes for exposure just another tactic imo that backfires as much as it helps.

I think most people think they are open and honest and aren't. That most people do not look at their spouse as better that is the problem. There is always a self seeking agenda somewhere in the action. The pedestal my wife is on isn't a pedestal of worship it's a genuine loving selfless day to day action that gives my wife the security to know that she is my world in the most complete sense of the word. The flip is she feels much the same. Every neighbor around us is divorced she works full time and hears stories affairs, cheating, selfishness, laziness, those, dishonesty, lack of fortitude those are the true issues.

I could go on about losing parents at 18, grandparents at 20, sleeping with everything that walked, she went off the deep end too or a bit, blowing 400K in inheritance in 2 years, maybe we are lucky because we have seen so much that now at almost 40 we know what we have in each other and life. The whims that many dream of we did as teenagers.

When I read these books they are so surfacy, so full of exemptions, and exclusions, I wonder who really does these things and acts this way? I guess alot more people than I would have ever thought!! Maybe that is the problem we/I'm so far removed from acting like a teenager and being emotionally driven that being a doormat, using tactics, or a woman being a manipulative fit testing monster as you guys describe is alien to me.

Maybe I really am that lucky!! I will never be a fan of NOT putting others before yourself it has not stopped working for me in almost 20 years in my marriage, work, and relationships. Yeah if you are selfish and always have a "what's in it for me" agenda I could see that as a problem.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Geesh,


The entire model of social interaction is a "what's in it for me" attitude. You can call it a game if you wish. 

For instance, you wouldn't have married your wife if you didn't get something in return. You wouldn't have the friends you have if they also didn't bring something to the table that you want or need. 

Humans are generally selfish individuals. But, of course, we are also compassionate and caring. That makes us special and amazing.

Of course these books are surface only. But don't discredit them. Most are designed to assist in bringing out better qualities in yourself. Which isn't a bad thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Oh yeah...one more thing....


Using tactics to bring out a desired result is also deep rooted in the human model. That's how we work.

You give your wife love.....she gives it back. You do something nice...she feels good....both about you and your relationship. Is this game playing? You could argue yes when you get to the base of the action. 

I guess there is a fine line between that and manipulation. Some people go straight to the manipulation for greed route though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OhGeesh said:


> I'll keep saying that using tactics to attempt to produce a desired result is just game playing. Same goes for exposure just another tactic imo that backfires as much as it helps.
> 
> I think most people think they are open and honest and aren't. That most people do not look at their spouse as better that is the problem. There is always a self seeking agenda somewhere in the action. The pedestal my wife is on isn't a pedestal of worship it's a genuine loving selfless day to day action that gives my wife the security to know that she is my world in the most complete sense of the word. The flip is she feels much the same. Every neighbor around us is divorced she works full time and hears stories affairs, cheating, selfishness, laziness, those, dishonesty, lack of fortitude those are the true issues.
> 
> ...


I really do hope you are saying the same things in your 60s!!!!

Look. My fate is obviously not necessarily your fate. But I will tell you I once had very similar values, beliefs and behaviours that you speak of!

You are speaking from that wonderful position of naivety and ignorance. And believe me THAT IS A REALLY GOOD THING.

But you have something like a 50/50 chance of NOT being betrayed by your wife! It hits men like you and me exceedingly hard when we are betrayed.

You are NOT “self less”. It is impossible for you not to be with your self! You simply cannot detach yourself, well from your self! What you are saying is you are not “self-centred”. But in my experience you are going way overboard with this things, such that it is very hard to believe the truth of it.

Have you really, honestly subsumed all your wants and desires in the favour of those people around you wants and desires? Have you really done that? Are you really and truly a martyr to your cause? 

Do you really behave like a Saint, expecting NOTHING back in return for your GOOD work?

You are “expecting” one heck of a lot back for your good work and while you continue to get it back, you will continue with your good work!

Once you do not get back what you are expecting back, that will be WHEN you see just how very selfish and self-centred you’ve been!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

OhGeesh,
Do you not see that you are playing the game of “I am a really really Nice Guy”. Can you not see that?

The guys here STOP playing that particular game when it no longer works for them for some reason or another.

If it never stopped working for them, they’d never stop playing it!

Lets us all hope that you never have to stop playing your game!


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