# Dynamics of Change - How to Move On



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

All those trite little sayings we've heard over the years. 

"You can't love someone else until you love yourself."

"Be good to yourself"

"Moderation in all things"

"If you love someone, set them free"

All these things are true. But, they are ONLY true if you are on the right road - and right with yourself.

Most of us are here because of neediness - either in us or in our partners. Chances are, we've been needy, or else we wouldn't have user accounts on TAM

As I put these thoughts together, I was thinking in particular of my Canuck buddy CanGuy. He's 7 months into this and still wanting contact with her and somewhat unable to break free.

It got me thinking... why. What would - or should - help?

My best recommendation is OBSERVATION.

So many of us have been in denial. If we look back over the entirety of the relationship(s), all the signs were there - usually from the beginning. BUT... this was to be OUR true love. And, this thought is the one that sends us off the rails.

Once we decide that this is IT, the excuses we make for THEM are really excuses about US. They show us what and who they are and we stare at them in disbelief. They offer us bull**** excuses. No matter how lame or disjointed, we swallow hard and buy them. We take responsibility for THEIR behavior and end up apologizing for what we MAKE THEM do... like little children blameshifting onto their siblings.

This board is real good with the 180. It's prescribed as a self-improvement tool and I have no quarrel with it. Yet, there's another step that's often helpful.

What about when "they" reappear. They may - or may not - want to reconcile. But, you have to deal with them effectively in a way that leads to reconciliation OR closure.

How best to do that?

I'm going to propose the following - much of this taken from dialogue with LifeScript and Synthetic.

1) Take an inventory of where you - personally - went wrong in the relationship and erect boundaries where necessary.

2) Enforce the boundaries with dispassionate cool.

3) Drop the anger -and totally drop the focus on them. It's no longer about them - it's about YOU.

4) OBSERVE.... think of yourself @50,000 feet. You have just met this person. When they try to steamroll, you stop them. Watch THEIR reaction to your words. Stop the ridiculous focus on what they think of you.

5) Test your delusions. This is truly the purpose of the entire thing. Prove to yourself whether you were right or wrong. This is without excuse-making and without panic. If you met this person TODAY with what you now know about yourself, would you even wish to DATE THEM... much less marry them?

If you find yourself getting overwrought or angry in this process, go back to your counselor and work through it. Do not reach out to your partner and try to talk. You're not ready yet. When the anger and defensiveness subside, it will be time to talk - IF you choose to.

In case you're wondering, this is what my wife and I are doing. At least it's what I'm doing.

I will be moving on with my life - with her or without her.

That's not really up to me.

But, I will be at peace.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad,

Your method is all about logic. It definitely works in theory for someone who is detached enough to ascend to 50,000 feet and love themselves enough to not feel the depressing pressure of "not being loved".

I don't know how you got there. I don't even know if it's possible for someone like me to achieve such levels of confidence after getting crushed in an 11 year relationship that has left me in pieces.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

Thanks for a great post. You've given me and many others some things to consider. I feel I have done many of the things you've outlined, and have taken ownership of the issues I had in the marriage, in particular not setting personal boundaries, becoming a nice guy, and not respecting myself and my rights in the marriage. I believe this is what made me look "weak" in the marriage. What I perceived as loving and attentive behaviour was perceived as weak and unattractive by my wife, in time anyway. 

Back in January when I stood up for myself, told her I would no longer let her project her inadequacies on me and blameshift, I finally rediscovered my self-respect. I felt like a man that day. I think she respected me for it as well, despite her waterworks and storming out of the house. I think I touched a nerve that day - and I did speak calmly. I was assertive, but very cool. I agree... it's the way to go.

You mentioned not to reach out when overwrought, which is why I've yet to send my ex the message I have prepared. May was a difficult month. I also want to discuss it with my counselor and "feel it through" a bit longer.



> If you met this person TODAY with what you now know about yourself, would you even wish to DATE THEM... much less marry them?


A very good question. I can say I would definitely date her. At present, with the amount of self-reflection and growth I've done, I know I would be a better boyfriend/husband to the next woman in my life. If my ex and I were to reconcile, then I would continue to stay on track with my progress, clearly define my boundaries, and compromise would be healthy - supportive and not at the expense of self. As you stated in other posts, "I'm not ok with that" would be used when necessary. Regardless of how things progress in my life, I will be a better friend to myself in my next relationship, be it a "new" one with my ex, or a new woman. 

That said, I do need to take an inventory of the pros and cons in the past few years and decide if it's worth taking a chance on my marriage once again. I know I am capable of growth, self-reflection and healthy compromise. As for my ex, I am not so sure. I don't know if she has seen a counsellor, which would be crucial to our moving forward together. She has issues that need to be explored.

If reconciliation is on the menu, it would be work, but that's fine. We'd have to deconstruct a few things to build them back up properly. I still think my ex and I have the foundation to do this... now I/we have to decide if we want to build something together again, if that is even possible.

Thanks again for this post, Conrad. I wish you well with the process you're going through with your wife. I hope it's beneficial and productive.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

synthetic said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Your method is all about logic. It definitely works in theory for someone who is detached enough to ascend to 50,000 feet and love themselves enough to not feel the depressing pressure of "not being loved".
> 
> I don't know how you got there. I don't even know if it's possible for someone like me to achieve such levels of confidence after getting crushed in an 11 year relationship that has left me in pieces.


Synthetic,

Man up... for REAL. Not some tricky program of tit for tat manipulation. Seriously, you CAN drop the focus on her. And you should do it. Listen, you are way too willing to fix and take the abuse. Why?

Seriously, you only need the phrase, "I'm not ok with this" - and stick with it with steely resolve.

If you want to do something nice for her with no expectation of return, do it.

IF you are planning to do something to "convince" her or to "show" her, then you are in the weeds. You are expecting her to reciprocate. She has shown you over the course of 11 years that she WILL reciprocate ONLY WHEN SHE GETS HER WAY.

In other words, proving/convincing her of anything is futility.

You've been trying it the same way for 11 years. What more proof do you need that it doesn't work that way?

Burning that into your brain will give you lift-off.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I can say I would definitely date her


Canguy,

I understand your desire for reconciliation, but I don't understand how you say you'd definitely date your wife if had no history with her.

This is a person who targeted your deepest insecurities and abused your vulnerabilities to her own advantage. How would she make a good date?


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## firebelly (May 24, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Conrad,
> 
> Your method is all about logic. It definitely works in theory for someone who is detached enough to ascend to 50,000 feet and love themselves enough to not feel the depressing pressure of "not being loved".
> 
> I don't know how you got there. I don't even know if it's possible for someone like me to achieve such levels of confidence after getting crushed in an 11 year relationship that has left me in pieces.


In my low moments I feel this too - does this all mean that I am unlovable? Then there are moments when I can say - the fact that THIS person doesn't love me says more about them than it does about me. I hope you get there.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Can,

There's a guy who posted here for awhile with the moniker RDJ.

A very thoughtful man who has been through literally everything with his wife. EA/PA/Abuse, etc. She was alcoholic, etc.

His posts are pure bedrock for this type of thing. He hasn't been around lately, but the topic of "leading your wife" would be especially beneficial for you.

For you see, even when trying to "work through things", in the past I've taken responsibility for what she has to work through.

P.S. That doesn't work either



canguy66 said:


> Thanks for a great post. You've given me and many others some things to consider. I feel I have done many of the things you've outlined, and have taken ownership of the issues I had in the marriage, in particular not setting personal boundaries, becoming a nice guy, and not respecting myself and my rights in the marriage. I believe this is what made me look "weak" in the marriage. What I perceived as loving and attentive behaviour was perceived as weak and unattractive by my wife, in time anyway.
> 
> Back in January when I stood up for myself, told her I would no longer let her project her inadequacies on me and blameshift, I finally rediscovered my self-respect. I felt like a man that day. I think she respected me for it as well, despite her waterworks and storming out of the house. I think I touched a nerve that day - and I did speak calmly. I was assertive, but very cool. I agree... it's the way to go.
> 
> ...


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Conrad, 

Thanks for this post. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't date her again. I see Canguy still hoping for reconciliation and Synthetic having a hard time detaching. I also have moments where I don't know what to do, fear of the future but don't you guys think going back to your exes would be giving them a gift they don't deserve. Like really, we all deserve better. That's my opinion.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Script,

My wife is the last one of this kind I will ever hang with.

BUT - learning to stay composed under pressure and exactly when to pull the plug on a non-productive encounter has been absolutely invaluable.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Conrad,

By engaging in this sort of dynamic, aren't you depriving yourself of true intimacy and the joy of feeling unconditionally loved (even if temporarily)?

I'm not judging. I'm asking. I understand it's a great self-discovery exercise but at what cost?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Your method is all about logic. It definitely works in theory for someone who is detached enough to ascend to 50,000 feet and love themselves enough to not feel the depressing pressure of "not being loved".
> 
> I don't know how you got there. I don't even know if it's possible for someone like me to achieve such levels of confidence after getting crushed in an 11 year relationship that has left me in pieces.


"Not being loved" that's the source of angst with you right now. Because ONE person on this planet doesn't love you - you've given away your power and deemed yourself 'crushed' beyond repair. Deep down you don't believe that otherwise you wouldn't be reading posts like this.

I won't bore you with my story but my toxic parents with whom I was deeply enmeshed with disowned me when I was 33 years old. To say I felt broken and "not loved" would be the understatement of the year. I truly thought I'd never get my confidence back after such a horrendous blow. 

If my own parents don't love me then by gosh I must truly be unloveable. In fact for years I walked around believing that very thing. I was angry, I pushed people away, because I thought why would anyone like a piece of garbage like me.

And to make matter worse when I did make friend they were toxic, abusive ones. Why? It's all I deserved of course.

But like you deep down inside there was this part of me that didn't believe this. I mean do you believe it? Do you think I'm unlovable just because my parents disowned me? Of course not. It means THEY are the problem not me.

What Conrad is doing isn't rocket science but it does take a attitude of seeking and a willingness to challenge those thoughts in your head that make absolutely no sense. I didn't get this overnight but I kept at it. One day I woke up and I realized none of this was true.

So the 33 year relationship (I'm 46 now) with my parents may have left me in pieces but I'm proof that those pieces can be put back together. One piece, one baby step, one day at a time. Everyone here is telling you what to do and you should listen to them. Taking back your life is more about ACTION than anything else. Your confidence follows action not the other way around.

My heart goes out to you because I know this pain and it sucks. I just had to pop in and tell you there is life after being NOT loved by someone important to you. You will however have to do the work. It won't be just handed to you. Life doesn't work that way....unfortunately. 

Hang in there and keep posting.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

synthetic said:


> By engaging in this sort of dynamic, aren't you depriving yourself of true intimacy and the joy of feeling unconditionally loved (even if temporarily)?


Do you love yourself unconditionally? True intimacy can't come until you can love yourself first.

There are no short cuts to this process.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Mavash, thank you.

Of course I don't want to believe I'm "unlovable". 

My beef is with "not being loved" by the person who promised to do just that! The emotional investment on my part was absolutely monumental. Hers was a house of cards (if even that). Mine was a concrete tower with a virtually indestructible foundation. 

I understand it was my fault to build such a monument in exchange for essentially 'nothing', but damn, it felt so good at times. How can I ever get that good feeling back if I know the person I love can ruin it all with the blink of an eye?

I'll survive this, no doubt, but the hell-hole I'm in right now is really hot.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Shouldn't my parents have loved me? By conceiving me ON PURPOSE (it took a year for my mom to get pregnant with me) doesn't that mean they promised to care for me forever and ever amen? I loved them and jumped through every hoop imaginable to get them to love me back. There were times when they loved me and those times were great.

Is it my fault to build such a monument in exchange for 'nothing' in return? Of course not.

This is a complicated discussion but stay with me. Loving someone comes with risks no matter who it is. Where do you think the phrase it's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. Think of all those corny songs. Love hurts, love is a battlefield, love sucks, etc.

But here is the TRUTH if you can see what I see about love and life you'd know that nobody can RUIN anything for you unless you allow them to do it. Nobody has that kind of power over you unless you give it to them.

I'm coming up on my 21st wedding anniversary and I swear on a stack of bibles if he were to leave me today I'd be fine. I'd mourn the loss sure but I'd be okay. Before I learned all this it would have crushed me too. But now I know it isn't about other people. As long as I love myself without depending on others for my happiness I'm good. I can love people fully, freely and intimately because my happiness no longer lies within them it's IN me.

I no longer NEED love from another human being to believe I have value. And that is a fabulous freeing feeling!!!


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Synthetic,

I think you and I and others have an issue with attachment -- this emotional investment you speak of. Is it really that we need to be loved by this one person, or is it that he need to attachment? I think the level of attachment we feel for our exes is unhealthy. It is codependency, not just love. Mavash has boundaries in her marriage that tell her it is safe to attach. If her boundaries were crossed, I bet she would be who'd to detach easier because she loves herself enough to do what is right for her above all else. Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MyselfAgain,

A subtle point if I may.

But, it all boils down to boundaries.

We give without expectations to our partners.

They may push us. It's clear Synthetic's partner, your partner, my partner, etc. have pushed us AND pushed us around.

Benjamin Franklin advised if you want a friend ask someone to do you a favor. INTERNALLY, they will justify doing something for you BECAUSE you like them or are a good person.

When a boundary gets crossed and you are uncomfortable with a certain level of giving, this same rationalization comes into play and "convinces" you that if you put up with this situation and perform, you WILL be rewarded with love, acceptance, deeper intimacy, or whatever.

The irony is, the REVERSE is true.

Your partner loses respect for those who don't respect themselves.

And, people like you, Synthetic, Lifescript, Canguy, jpr, bandit, and me end up being treated badly by those that promised to love us.

And we wonder why.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Codependency is a good word to describe this and even I struggle with it. These days I recognize the warning signs and can redirect. 

Before in my marriage I swung to polar extremes. First I was the angry wife who got upset every time my husband practically left the room. Unhealthy attachment is an understatement. I learned to chill and then I swung over to kissing his ass so he 'hopefully' he would love me back or wouldn't leave. More unhealthy attachment. He wasn't abusive but he is passive and full of excuses.

And at the end of the day I still wasn't being loved in the way that I desired. Finally I found my self esteem....ah yes that. You don't know what it feels like until you finally have it. Told my husband lovingly but firmly that I was yes "no longer okay with this".

Its quite comical because I've now completely changed the dynamic. HE is more dependent on me than I am to him. Turns out he was needy too but my behavior covered it up for him. Talk about shocked. I'm still shocked at how insecure and needy he really is.

You guys need to really work on fixing this. Being on the other side is fabulous. So much better to have THEM needy than you. 

.....just sayin.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Mavash, 

Thanks for this great post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I think I screwed up by not setting boundaries and then being passive aggressive, making him feel guilty for not meeting my expectations.

I did tell him what I wanted, but I was inconsistent in putting my foot down.

Wow, I think that sums up what I did to mess up my marriage. It's good to finally know. Too bad stbxh won't come to the table.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Just to be clear, there isn't any purpose to telling him that I am taking responsibility for this...right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I think I screwed up by not setting boundaries and then being passive aggressive, making him feel guilty for not meeting my expectations.
> 
> I did tell him what I wanted, but I was inconsistent in putting my foot down.
> 
> ...


Don't feel bad I did it too. I didn't set boundaries, was PA, inconsistent, all of it. I just look at it now as a great learning experience. 

And this skill helps in all relationships not just with spouses. I'm SHOCKED at how often I let friends walk all over me, manipulate me and I was blind to it. I was PA or full of excuses instead of just saying NO.

I was terrible at setting boundaries mainly because my self esteem was so low that I didn't think I deserved anything. I thought I should apologize for just taking up space. 

Not anymore.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MyselfAgain said:


> Just to be clear, there isn't any purpose to telling him that I am taking responsibility for this...right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not unless he asks.

There's a high likelihood that he will.

But, only after you've given up on the concept.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not unless he asks.
> 
> There's a high likelihood that he will.
> 
> But, only after you've given up on the concept.


 I worry that I will never have a chance to tell him. We have no kids and no contact. How do I know I will ever have a chance to talk to him again?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I worry that I will never have a chance to tell him. We have no kids and no contact. How do I know I will ever have a chance to talk to him again?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Out of your control. Let it go. If you're supposed to talk to him again the universe will conspire to make it happen if not it won't.

Your job is to focus on YOU.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I know ya'll will think I'm nuts but hear me out. How we see the world is simply a reflection of how we are in any given moment. If I'm okay the world is okay. If I'm depressed suddenly I'm drawn to every negative news out there.

Thats why I implore you to focus on yourself and less on others. Stop allowing your moods to blow in the wind based on what someone else does or doesn't do. Can't you see as long as you live like that you'll never be happy? Your happiness is now based on someone else yet again. It's a big trap.

The world is truly perfect just as it is. The people we meet are ones we were supposed to meet. The relationships that fall apart were supposed to fall apart. It all has purpose. Where we get in trouble is where we want to pick only the good stuff and avoid pain at all costs but pain is where we grow.

Embrace it!! I promise the payoff is totally worth it. Stop beating yourself up over mistakes you made before you knew better. It's all going to be okay. I promise.


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

I have always wanted to believe things are meant to be, but where is the proof? Is blind faith the only way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## firebelly (May 24, 2012)

synthetic said:


> Conrad,
> 
> By engaging in this sort of dynamic, aren't you depriving yourself of true intimacy and the joy of feeling unconditionally loved (even if temporarily)?
> 
> I'm not judging. I'm asking. I understand it's a great self-discovery exercise but at what cost?


I see what you're saying - but I think there's some benefit in what Conrad's saying. You can cut things off completely, but then, how do you learn to really have boundaries moment by moment? When my H and I decided to split, we also decided to stay living in the same house for a while for financial reasons. He kept pushing my same old buttons, but now that I wasn't attached to the relationship surviving, I decided I would just start really speaking my mind. "I don't like the way you're talking to me right now." "That's none of your business anymore." It really is good training for me to show up more authentically in the next relationship.


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## firebelly (May 24, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I have always wanted to believe things are meant to be, but where is the proof? Is blind faith the only way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure I believe in "meant to be" either, but I do believe I can choose to let every painful experience break me, or I can learn from it. AND...I do believe I really can learn from every painful experience.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> I know ya'll will think I'm nuts but hear me out. How we see the world is simply a reflection of how we are in any given moment. If I'm okay the world is okay. If I'm depressed suddenly I'm drawn to every negative news out there.
> 
> Thats why I implore you to focus on yourself and less on others. Stop allowing your moods to blow in the wind based on what someone else does or doesn't do. Can't you see as long as you live like that you'll never be happy? Your happiness is now based on someone else yet again. It's a big trap.
> 
> ...


Love this, Mavash. One of my all-time favorite quotes is from Eleanor Roosevelt. She was a homely woman who grew up in a wealthy family who only valued women for their beauty. Her mother made sure she was aware that a homely woman would not be successful in attracting a husband. 

The quote is, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." So much of the pain that we endure is due to us believing that we have to measure up to some imaginary standard that society has imposed on us. Balderdash!


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## MyselfAgain (Apr 21, 2012)

Good thing Eleanor wasn't really looking for a husband! She wasn't able to be her true self in public, but the fact that she did marry certainly was meant to be...otherwise we might not know her at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Mavash, 

So now that he's the needy one would you ever take advantage of this? Maybe subconciously? 

I wonder if I would have done the same to STBXW if she was the one who didnt set boundaries with me. 

I had a girlfriend once who I had a monster crush on. She told me straight up that if she wanted to she could take advantage of me, of how much I liked her. Turns out I liked her more than she liked me but I was so thankful to her for telling me the truth. It's funny, I always think she's the only one who has ever said the truth to me, completely.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Mavash, thank you.
> 
> Of course I don't want to believe I'm "unlovable".
> 
> ...


This is precisely why you need to work on yourself. I know the process of rediscovery of oneself if tough after a separation when you're been a "nice guy". You're giving your ex way too much credit and power. 

Synthetic, I understand the extent of your investment in the relationship compared to her's. I felt the same way. I'm sure that during the relationship you didn't feel fulfilled. I assume there was no true blindside here. 

I think you need to invest time in yourself. Are you exercising? Seeing friends? Are you in IC? I think you need to rebuild you own foundation first. It doesn't sound like you're through being a nice guy yet.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Lifescript said:


> Mavash,
> 
> So now that he's the needy one would you ever take advantage of this? Maybe subconciously?


You'd think so wouldn't you? That I'd want to get even or take advantage of him for all those needy years my needs weren't being met.

Here's the rub once you 'get' what I'm talking about it's impossible to do anything less than love people and my husband is no exception. I see his neediness and I embrace it. I reassure him, I love him, I nurture him, I give him everything that I wanted and more. 

I see now that he is simply a man with frailties and flaws the same as me. Their is no need for me to take advantage of him. What would be the point? My needs are already being met and I'm full of love not revenge.

This is not to be confused with boundaries. I have strong boundaries which ironically frees me to love with all my heart.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's the key part synthetic.

One of the REASONS your "mountain" was so high was BECAUSE she wasn't doing anything.

We tend to supply things in relationships that WE feel are lacking.

Guess how we determine that? It's due to what we aren't getting.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> I have always wanted to believe things are meant to be, but where is the proof? Is blind faith the only way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Experience has been my best teacher. Every single horrible thing that has ever happened to me had purpose. I might not see it until years later but it's there. Its always there.


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## canguy66 (Dec 18, 2011)

synthetic said:


> Canguy,
> 
> I understand your desire for reconciliation, but I don't understand how you say you'd definitely date your wife if had no history with her.
> 
> This is a person who targeted your deepest insecurities and abused your vulnerabilities to her own advantage. How would she make a good date?


I'm not sure I'd go that far. There were moments when she did, especially by the end. However, that was her making excuses to justify leaving instead of confronting her own issues and having the courage and resolve to work on a marriage with so much going for it. In my humble opinion, of course.

Sure there are times what she said hurt. A lot. 

I would still date her today? Yes. Based on Conrad's question, and knowing what I now know about myself, yes I would happily date her. However, I would not marry her again unless she showed the ability and willingness to be self-reflective and work on her issues. 

I think my failure has been being a nice guy, not setting boundaries and losing my sense of self. I also let self-loathing about body image affect the things we did, but I am working on that now. I am working on myself so this past history does not repeat, whether it's reconciliation with my ex (unlikely) or a new relationship.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

MyselfAgain said:


> Synthetic,
> 
> I think you and I and others have an issue with attachment -- this emotional investment you speak of. Is it really that we need to be loved by this one person, or is it that he need to attachment? I think the level of attachment we feel for our exes is unhealthy. It is codependency, not just love. Mavash has boundaries in her marriage that tell her it is safe to attach. If her boundaries were crossed, I bet she would be who'd to detach easier because she loves herself enough to do what is right for her above all else. Does that make sense?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This!
This is me exactly. I am so co-dependent that I can not feel happiness unless I know that my h wants me. When he is with me and into me I feel good. The minute he leaves I start to feel sad and insecure. When he isn't happy to talk to me on the phone and when he doesn't initiate seeing me I feel lonely and miserable. It is completely irrational. He has cheated on me for years and left me for ow. He is still with her but thinks it might be a mistake and is seriosly thinking about ending it and coming back to me. How in the hell can I be ok with this? 

In my rational mind I know that I will be ok in the end. I know that I will eventually find someone else that deserves me. But my heart wants him and I make excuses for his behavior just like he does. I know all of this but it feels so good when he is spending time with me that I ignore all of the horrible things he has doen and is still doing because I want him back. 

This is seriously jacked-up! Co-dependence is a terrible thing. If anyone has any suggestions on how to fight this please tell me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

cantmove said:


> This is seriously jacked-up! Co-dependence is a terrible thing. If anyone has any suggestions on how to fight this please tell me.


I 'liked' your post because I could relate to all of it. I can laugh now at how irrational my behavior was. I was so needy that I practically followed my husband around like a lost puppy whenever I could and was pouty and sad when he was gone.

Here's the sad truth. Neediness is UNATTRACTIVE. The more needy I was the less my husband wanted me. Period end of story. Now that I'm over this he wants me again. 

I still struggle with this. I can tell when my neediness switch has been activated because he avoids me. It's the weirdest thing. I take a deep breath and walk away until I get my sence of balance back. I'm still a work in progress.  

Codependence is terrible and how I fixed it was with IC, reading lots of books and being here on TAM.


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## Unendinglove (Jun 3, 2012)

Wow what great thoughts. New here! May i ask advice about the wife after 4 months separated, decides to open up for a chance. We go out for 3 weeks, take 2 trips, make love twice, share i love yous. 

Daughter has baby with unemployed bum boyfriend and all the gains we made and progress are "dropped". Doesnt want to get together, rarely responds to texts. Its killing me!

Do I go dark, 180 and let her wonder what happened or tell her to enjoy her new grandaughter and take the time to decide where 'we' are going. This is a "fine line" and i want to take the right path. I was the doormat type, guilty as charged.

Help appreciated!


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

cantmove said:


> This!
> This is me exactly. I am so co-dependent that I can not feel happiness unless I know that my h wants me. When he is with me and into me I feel good. The minute he leaves I start to feel sad and insecure. When he isn't happy to talk to me on the phone and when he doesn't initiate seeing me I feel lonely and miserable. It is completely irrational. He has cheated on me for years and left me for ow. He is still with her but thinks it might be a mistake and is seriosly thinking about ending it and coming back to me. How in the hell can I be ok with this?
> 
> In my rational mind I know that I will be ok in the end. I know that I will eventually find someone else that deserves me. But my heart wants him and I make excuses for his behavior just like he does. I know all of this but it feels so good when he is spending time with me that I ignore all of the horrible things he has doen and is still doing because I want him back.
> ...


Im very similar Cantmove- Funny thing in the rest of my life im very independent, but when it comes to love im realizing im codependent. I, and you, have taken strides in the right direction- i guess its finding what else in life can make you happy and not be dependent on others for that happiness.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

unsure78 said:


> Im very similar Cantmove- Funny thing in the rest of my life im very independent, but when it comes to love im realizing im codependent. I, and you, have taken strides in the right direction- i guess its finding what else in life can make you happy and not be dependent on others for that happiness.


Unsure,

Any idea on why that dynamic established itself?


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Unsure,
> 
> Any idea on why that dynamic established itself?


I have started working on it with my therapist actually, she actually seems to think im not a total codependent type person per say, but I do have fixer/helper tendencies. She said when I met my ex we were like a lock and key, he needed someone to take care of him and I did not mind fulfilling that role. We have started to touch on it stemming from my relationship with my parents, who while good people and always provided for us, were really never there emotionally or part of my day to day life. Like we didnt hug or kiss when i was growing up, never said "I love you", they would not participate or even be there for our sports or activities. My brothers and i were always just kinds left to entertain ourselves, not that my parents were neglectful- just not there emotionally. Also My mother was sick most of my later childhood, so i would often have to help take care of my younger siblings. So I actually tend to be not very "attached" to many people, I enjoy their company, like friends, have many long term friends but to be honest if a friend dropped out of my life tomorrow I would not skip a beat. However when I do get attached to someone, ie my ex, I hold on to it extremely strongly, i guess because i want to be loved so badly. - like i said just starting to work on it / figure it out in therapy


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

And by the way I make sure i hug, kiss , and tell my son I love him everyday- and always participate in his life


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

unsure78 said:


> And by the way I make sure i hug, kiss , and tell my son I love him everyday- and always participate in his life


My childhood story is similar. Neither parent was there for me emotionally. They were incapable, mom was 16 when she got pregnant and dad was 18. They didn't have a clue. Then my dad left us when I was 12. My ic says I have abandonment issues and was never nurtured. 

I remember from the beginning of my relationship with h that I was always terrified that one day he would get tired of me and leave. Needless to say I held on way too tight and was creating a self-fullfilling prophecy.

My son gets lots of affection from me and I tell him I love him many times a day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

cantmove said:


> My childhood story is similar. Neither parent was there for me emotionally. They were incapable, mom was 16 when she got pregnant and dad was 18. They didn't have a clue. Then my dad left us when I was 12. My ic says I have abandonment issues and was never nurtured.
> 
> I remember from the beginning of my relationship with h that I was always terrified that one day he would get tired of me and leave. Needless to say I held on way too tight and was creating a self-fullfilling prophecy.
> 
> My son gets lots of affection from me and I tell him I love him many times a day.


Yet, it must be difficult not to overcompensate.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

I do overcompensate sometimes. But, I think most of the time it's a balance. He knows he is loved but he also knows he has to play by the rules and be respectful. He's a good boy and always says "yes mam' & "no mam". That's a must here in the south!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

cantmove said:


> I do overcompensate sometimes. But, I think most of the time it's a balance. He knows he is loved but he also knows he has to play by the rules and be respectful. He's a good boy and always says "yes mam' & "no mam". That's a must here in the south!


Many times, a neglected parent will "live through" their children. And, if you want to see something really twisted, just imagine "Mrs. Nice Mom"

Yes, the same sort of conflict avoidance with ones children that a dysfunctional niceguy has with his wife.

Woe to the niceguy man who marries into that.

He will quickly find his needs at the absolute bottom of the pile, while being expected to fix everything for wife AND her kids.


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Cant move I find that very interesting that we had a similar lack of emotional support from our parents. I too try to balance with my son- Im loving but firm- and respect is key in my house as well.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

My mom was just the opp. Conrad. She lived through my brother and I in that she acted like a teenager with our friends. Very innapropriate conversations in front of our friends. If I said something about her behavior she would say " your such a b***h" or " you're such a prude"

She threw us under the bus for both of our stepfathers. 

Oh and get this. When she found out my h left me she spread it around the hopital she works at including a Doc. I know. She even flagged down one of my H's employees in the street and leaned in her window to say " have you heard, Kris left Melissa" LIke she was talking about some neighbor down the street.

Needless to say my ic has given me the permission I need not to forgive her for the latest.


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## unsure78 (Oct 17, 2011)

Wow that's crazy Cantmove- my family is not at all like that- it more just very cold and clinical-


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

cantmove said:


> My mom was just the opp. Conrad. She lived through my brother and I in that she acted like a teenager with our friends. Very innapropriate conversations in front of our friends. If I said something about her behavior she would say " your such a b***h" or " you're such a prude"
> 
> She threw us under the bus for both of our stepfathers.
> 
> ...


There is no wound like the wound of parental betrayal.


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## yellowsubmarine (Feb 3, 2012)

The Dynamics of Change... great heading. 

Several days ago I came to the realization that I accept this situation, whether it works out or not. I can live with or without him.

I've set boundaries for myself.

Reality is, I'm in limbo from a relationship perspective. The dilemma is if I meet someone else - not currently looking, but you never know. .

I don't feel like filing. I'm spent of trying to "fix" things over the years while he took a step back and didn't get involved and did "nothing." He actually admitted that doing nothing was easy. Whether it was intentional or not, the result is we live in different continents. Last conversation we had, once again, said he didn't know what to do. Well, I'm done trying to come up with a solution or a plan. I sure hope that his new counselor provides him with help and insight and puts it to practice. And if not, then that's ok.

It was such a relief to feel this way after so long. I hope I can keep it up.

I'm relatively at peace with myself now. It's a great feeling after months of emotional rollercoasters.

The point of my post is that I'm one step closer to moving on. With or without him. It felt like such a relief. Can't describe what happened, when to pin it, what was said, or how it came to me. 

I just feel better now.


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