# Fiance kisses my mouth when making love like shes licking a vagina.



## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

I'm on a mobile phone typing this so I'll make it quick. my fiance and I have been together since September. the sexual relationship is very good. however, one of the more disturbing things that she admitted to me that she fantasized about having sex with other women. since she is a Christian, she knowledged that this was sinful and we sought therapy together. Christian counseling actually. she said that she only had these thoughts when she was masturbating. since January she no longer masturbate.she says she has overcome these thoughts. however, over the course of the relationship, id: can fantasizing about her having sex with other women. so what times when we make love I would Harbor this fantasy my mind. well, this past weekend we were making love and I think n 2 shape my tongue like it was a clitoris.she caught on and they can kiss in my mouth like it was a womans vagina. it really turns me on disturbed me at the same time.so, I'm very confused. she says that she did not enjoy it but was doing it for me. even know she is honest and we've gone through therapy I'm also aware that she could be lying or in denial to the situation.this has become a psycho sexual situation. I'm very hurt and she is very hurt by this. yet I think we are both turned on by it.we both are unsure what to do and how to handle this situation and the feelings associated with it. thank you foryour thoughtful advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Princess Puffin'stuff (Mar 8, 2013)

How is it that you acknowledge that it is "sinful" according to your "religion" for her to have these "feelings" yet you're having premarital sex?

I absolutely adore it when "Christians" pick and choose like that ...

Each of my quotes was intentional and sarcastic, in case that wasn't obvious.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

So during sex you two pretend she's with another woman, but you get hurt she plays along? She is not "allowed" to masturbate because she fantasizes with women ? 

Is this correct?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

So lemme see if I get this right:

You are disturbed that she had fantasized about being with other women.

You went to therapy/Christian counseling together because this was sinful and she is now "cured" of masturbating and homosexual thoughts. :scratchhead:

But now you sometimes have fantasies about her being with another woman while you are having sex with her. (Is that also a sin?) 

And you are disturbed by your own fantasies, and by the fact that she went along with YOUR idea of making your tongue like a clitorus.

I hope you don't take this too harshly but...if you are going to keep thinking that having homosexual fantasies is a "sin" which needs spiritual correction, you aren't likely to have the fulfilling sex life you could have if you would simply accept yourself and your wife as the sexual beings you really are, instead of the white-washed beings you wish you were.

But what do I know?

My God loves me just the way I am so I never have to worry if my thoughts are sinful or not.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Personally, I have no desire to censor my SO's sexual thoughts, or my own. I doubt it's even possible.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

sounds like fun to me!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

are you ready for a life time of sexual dysfunction with your future wife?

if not don't marry her. this is a warning flag. and you have been warned.


and can you explain how certain things sexually are against Christianity and you guy avoid them but premarital sex is ok. 


hmmm, not very consistent with your practice of your beliefs, but thats a whole different discussion.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I don't understand where you see red flags of sexual dysfunction. In her or his behavior? Or the situation as a whole? Honesty asking 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Princess Puffin'stuff said:


> How is it that you acknowledge that it is "sinful" according to your "religion" for her to have these "feelings" yet you're having premarital sex?
> 
> I absolutely adore it when "Christians" pick and choose like that ...
> 
> Each of my quotes was intentional and sarcastic, in case that wasn't obvious.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

So, now you know how it feels to be a vagina?


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

It could very well be that she is gay or bisexual. It could be that shes been sexually repressed (by religion) and gay things are forbidden so its a turn on. 

I was raised in a very strict religious environment where oral sex and masturbation were forbidden even between married couples. I can see how this has affected me. Sometimes it is hard to say something is sexually part of your personality - or if it just arouses you because someone said you cant do it.

In any case - Id make damn sure she wasn't gay before I married her. If she's bi I hope you can accept that as part of her being. It wont go away. Doesn't mean she needs to act on it - but its going to be part of your life. If you cant live with that I wouldn't marry her. That wouldn't be fair to either of you.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Princess Puffin'stuff said:


> How is it that you acknowledge that it is "sinful" according to your "religion" for her to have these "feelings" yet you're having premarital sex?
> 
> I absolutely adore it when "Christians" pick and choose like that ...
> 
> Each of my quotes was intentional and sarcastic, in case that wasn't obvious.


We were married through the church...but not civilly due to an issue in approorisntt thare here. In case it isn't obvious, Christian means we are sinners in need of salvation and believe Jesus is the Son of God sent by God to redeem the world for their sins and have faith in Him. Im one post you judged, condensed, criticized, assumed and revealed your lack of understanding of Christianity....which wasn't the advice I watt asking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

broder...I guess you will need to ask God if you are sinning or not, as none of us would know....it isn't up to us.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

mablenc said:


> So during sex you two pretend she's with another woman, but you get hurt she plays along? She is not "allowed" to masturbate because she fantasizes with women ?
> 
> Is this correct?


No.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

mablenc said:


> I don't understand where you see red flags of sexual dysfunction. In her or his behavior? Or the situation as a whole? Honesty asking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Both.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> It could very well be that she is gay or bisexual. It could be that shes been sexually repressed (by religion) and gay things are forbidden so its a turn on.
> 
> I was raised in a very strict religious environment where oral sex and masturbation were forbidden even between married couples. I can see how this has affected me. Sometimes it is hard to say something is sexually part of your personality - or if it just arouses you because someone said you cant do it.
> 
> In any case - Id make damn sure she wasn't gay before I married her. If she's bi I hope you can accept that as part of her being. It wont go away. Doesn't mean she needs to act on it - but its going to be part of your life. If you cant live with that I wouldn't marry her. That wouldn't be fair to either of you.


It's interesting that you wrote this and thank you for an intelligent and contributory reply instead of the others who think they are somehow creative, clever and have nothing to offer but put down, judgements and sarcasm to a serious issue and someone seeking advice. It takes no intelligence to respond like a five year old would if someone said booby. Back to your comment....she said in counseling that she began fantasizing when she began masturbating in her 20s. She was introduced to lesbian porn by her than boyfriend. She says she thought that was hot. The fantasies are that she is being forced to have sex with a woman by a woman. She said the appeal was doing something taboo. She says that's the attraction. Her other fantasies during masturbation are seduced by a doctor during an exam and the other taking nude pics for a photographer and he invites another woman to take pictures with her. Him asking her to do this and that with her and ultimately a threesome breaks out. She said she never once had any relationship of any kind with any woman or ever sought one. She says she would never want one. She says she analyzed this deeply for months in Christian counseling from a counselor who was a former lesbian and the counselor agreed she is not lesbian or bi but that the bad relationship...traumatic actually that she had with her mother is the underlying reason as well as the controlling father that suppressed the mother who was expected being in a polish family to serve the fathers every whim....and her mother did. Like most Christians and what I perceive as normal as she does as well is heterosexual....natures design. As a guy....obviously their is a humanistic attraction towards two women. Do I want it's real life...no. I agree and believe with the bibles position on it. Shoot me. I'm allowed to be in agreement with the bible and don't feel ultra liberated to have boundary less sex nor do I care what today's society dictates what's okay or not. My religion is not the issue. But it's relevant. I understand my feelings and the inner conflict in me. Imdo have trouble understanding doing lesbianism because its taboo. I wouldn't masturbate of gay sex with a man because its taboo. I would think of a million other things. I don't know if its the fluid nature of females and emotions that make it easier or less offensive or is my partner a bisexual in denial. She does have domination based fantasies as her MO when we've shared them. Everyone taking a stab at being Christian and dealing with these issues somehow is under some belief that Christian means we are perfect. No. It means we recognize we are not and we desire to live like Christ but we wrestle with the world, our environment and all kinds of issues that you may or may not deal with. And they are real to us. 

I would appreciate more feedback from you. It sounds like you understand.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

If you google something like "top 10 women's sexual fantasies" you will find sex with another woman. It's a very, very common fantasy, just like domination is a very, very common fantasy.

It doesn't mean she is lesbian or bi or anything other than she is a sexual being who has fantasies.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Princess Puffin'stuff said:


> How is it that you acknowledge that it is "sinful" according to your "religion" for her to have these "feelings" yet you're having premarital sex?
> 
> I absolutely adore it when "Christians" pick and choose like that ...
> 
> Each of my quotes was intentional and sarcastic, in case that wasn't obvious.


Okay. I'll take the bait. Chapter and verse on "Thou shalt not have premarital sex." 

I'm not interested in Churchian tradition; scripture only.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I can see that, totally. I am a lot older than you guys probably so can understand that Ive had certain fantasies and find certain things arousing that I actually do not wish to do in reality. I think there is a vast difference between "I would like to be handcuffed by someone I trust" and a fantasy that you are kidnapped and forced to have sex. The latter scenario is often played out in romance novels but I don't know anyone that would actually like to be held against their will and be forced to have sex. 

Honestly from your second post it does sound like its just a fantasy of hers and there is likely no harm in the verbal exploration of it. 

I think the woman on woman thing is a very common fantasy to have.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

My point about being older was just that ive had certain fantasies since I was a child that I never ended up wanting to actually do in reality.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

How to handle it?

Dump the Christianity and all it's hypocritical nonsensical BS and enjoy turning your fantasies in real life without any guilt.

Maybe find another woman to bring into the mix.

I promise you won't go to HELL.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

If anyone just disregards the Christianity part of his original post - at the end of the day his concern is if his finance is gay. ( I believe.) Regardless of religious belief I imagine nobody wants to end up married to a gay spouse. You know, unless they are both gay.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I'm bi-sexual and I found his posts insulting and rediculous, and to insinuate that being bi or gay needs spiritual correction is just plain stupid.

The biggest Christian organization that used to "make gays straight" recently closed its doors and also issued an apology to gay people because even THEY realized what they were doing was rediculous.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

U.S. group that 'converted' gays closes its doors and apologizes | Reuters

*(Reuters) - A Christian group that once promoted therapy to encourage gays and lesbians to overcome their sexual preferences has closed its doors and apologized to homosexuals, acknowledging its mission had been hurtful and ignorant*


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Oh, believe me - I'm totally pro-gay and left my religion because they got involved in politics that targeted the gay population. I am now non religious. 

However - I felt the OPs question had less to do with religion and more with his fiance's general preferences.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

I think its ridiculous that two mature grown up people are having such issues with guilt and conflicted feelings of morality to the point where they're probably not even being honest with themselves, because they feel they must follow some crazy rules made up by a bunch of people 100s of years ago.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Scarlet, I guess that's the real question to the OP then....IF he didn't think his wife was a sinner due to her fantasies, THEN would he even be here asking these questions?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Scarlet, I guess that's the real question to the OP then....IF he didn't think his wife was a sinner due to her fantasies, THEN would he even be here asking these questions?


Probably, only it would be couched in terms of "My Wife Likes to Look at Lebian Porn", and I've seen a thread or three along those lines.

I think the concern is whether she'd cheat on him with, or leave him for, a woman.

Tell me if I've got it wrong, OP.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

lenzi said:


> I think its ridiculous that two mature grown up people don't think like I do.


ftfy


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

GTdad said:


> Probably, only it would be couched in terms of "My Wife Likes to Look at Lebian Porn", and I've seen a thread or three along those lines.
> 
> I think the concern is whether she'd cheat on him with, or leave him for, a woman.
> 
> Tell me if I've got it wrong, OP.


I think you're right. The forbidding religious aspect adds a another layer to this concern, but the underlying concern is the same.

I've read that one of the common fantasies of lesbian women is of heterosexual sex with a man. It doesn't mean they want to cheat or to run off with another man, or to ever actually do it. It's just exciting and a turn-on to fantasize about, often _because _it's not something we would ever do. For many people, fantasizing about something that is "forbidden" also makes it even more of a turn-on.

There are a lot of books and articles about sexual fantasies. Fantasies are generally not _literal_; they are similar to dreams at night in that sense. It's a fascinating subject.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Wow, your wife's fantasy life is incredibly similar to mine. I've used all the same scenarios she's described to you. 

AND I've given my husband "cunnilingus" on his mouth and and his hand (two fingers pressed together, I tongue between them.) I've described to him in great detail (while we have sex) what I would do to another woman if she was there with us, and what I'd like her to do to me. I'm hugely turned on by women in porn--love, love looking at naked women. I think about women when I masturbate A LOT.

My husband finds all this incredibly hot. Eats out of my hand when I'm talking dirty about wanting a woman to lick me while he does her doggy style. 

I'm 43, have been with my husband for 24 years, am not gay or bi sexual, have never been with a woman and probably never will. My husband is everything I want in a lover--everything else is mind play, wonderful, wonderful mind play. 

You want to stop worrying about this? Then demystify it by exploring it. Ignore it, and you'll be dealing with it for the rest of your life. 

I'm not a Christian, but I don't discount how your beliefs are making this difficult for you. You and your lover have wonderful, complex minds that you believe were bestowed on you by a creator. You have bodies capable of giving and receiving exquisite pleasure. Celebrate your gifts and thank your God for them, don't be ashamed and question the* good* you've been blessed with. Use it to love one another, and then direct your compassion and energy toward the rest of humanity. There is so much suffering out there--don't create more. Do something to alleviate the suffering of others. Is there anything more Christian than this?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I agree that this may not mean she's a lesbian or bisexual. You have a very similar post from almost a year ago. It seems you are just uncomfortable with this fantasy. But it's a fantasy, I will only make 

two observations:

One she trusts you, you can harm that trust my being harsh or mad about how she reacted in moment you mentioned above. It seems she's struggling with this so try to be fa little more understanding. 

Second, if this is her struggle and even religiously she this is a weakness to her, as her husband sharing the same faith you should not be asking her to act out this fantasy. For two reasons, you are not letting her close this off as a fantasy if you are reminding her and aiding in the fantasy. You are also shaming her by getting mad at her for participating. It's like telling a person, here have this, do for me, then getting upset because they took it and calling them selfish.

As spouses we should help each other with our weaknesses. If she wants to overcome it don't push her back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

mablenc said:


> I don't understand where you see red flags of sexual dysfunction. In her or his behavior? Or the situation as a whole? Honesty asking
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so if your husband said he fantisizes about giving oral to a man when he makes love to you that would be cool. and could he suck your fingers like it was a penis.

I guess when I'm making love I would like to be the center of attention in her mind.

when you masterbate its kinda different.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> so if your husband said he fantisizes about giving oral to a man when he makes love to you that would be cool. and could he suck your fingers like it was a penis.
> 
> I guess when I'm making love I would like to be the center of attention in her mind.
> 
> when you masterbate its kinda different.


I was really asking, but ok. Guess you made your point. 

However fantasying about having sex with another woman is a very common, that doesn't make her sexually dysfunctional. He the one who did the whole tongue like a clit thing, it doesnt seem like she asked him to do it. So, IMO, this is a sexual orientation confusion.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

There is a LOT of confusion and misguided morality in both you and your fiance.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

mablenc said:


> I agree that this may not mean she's a lesbian or bisexual. You have a very similar post from almost a year ago. It seems you are just uncomfortable with this fantasy. But it's a fantasy, I will only make
> 
> two observations:
> 
> ...


:iagree:

As a Christian, you are called upon to help your fellows by shining a light on their sin and encouraging them to leave sin behind. It's not okay to lead another into sin. If you consider your fiancé's homoerotic fantasies to be a sin, then you have no business encouraging her to engage in them with you. You further have no business then condemning her for engaging in them _at your prodding_. You're using what you see as her weakness against her while also encouraging that weakness. You're like a pastor or priest who wants to hear a woman confess all the juicy sexual details because they turn you on, but then turn around and condemn her as a slvt. It's sleazy, it's wrongheaded, and it's in no way righteous. 

I would say that if you object to your fiancé's fantasies, then you should stop encouraging her in them. Or perhaps find another woman, less inclined to this fairly common fantasy, who will be more compatible with your sexual mores.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Ah, good it's another "this is not the advice I am looking for" thread. 

Am I to understand that you and your (wife?) are recognized as married by your church, but are not recognized as church by the state? 

This sounds like this situation has more underlying issues or potential issues than just the sex issue, and even the sex issue is multifaceted. 

1 - You want to deny her the right/ability to masturbate as you are uncomfortable with what she may be fantasizing about while doing so. How do you enforce this rule? Do you regularly ask her if she's masturbated? Did she make some vow in church to never again masturbate? Are you still allowed to masturbate?

There was a whole thread about this fairly recently. And a husband who made his wife swear she would never again masturbate, and when she was "caught" he wanted to divorce her. What's the expectation and the punishment here?

2 - Ultimately, no one here can give a spiritual answer about what you, your partner, or your particular church interprets as right or wrong, and what is a spiritual "sin." Only you can ultimately make that determination, and to what degree you can rectify your feelings with your faith. Each believer of any religion, ultimately, has to do that for themselves. 

However, we can advise that this is a problem that may lead to a long-standing issue in a marriage - that your partner has sexual fantasies that you see as sinful and cause you agitation - and you will likely forever be unhappy with the thought of them even having them. 

This is a serious problem, and truly - it may be time to consider going beyond the church to discuss it, and ponder potentially a sex therapist wherein you can lay it all out on the table.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Rowan said:


> :iagree:
> 
> As a Christian, you are called upon to help your fellows by shining a light on their sin and encouraging them to leave sin behind. It's not okay to lead another into sin. If you consider your fiancé's homoerotic fantasies to be a sin, then you have no business encouraging her to engage in them with you. You further have no business then condemning her for engaging in them _at your prodding_. You're using what you see as her weakness against her while also encouraging that weakness. You're like a pastor or priest who wants to hear a woman confess all the juicy sexual details because they turn you on, but then turn around and condemn her as a slvt. It's sleazy, it's wrongheaded, and it's in no way righteous.
> 
> I would say that if you object to your fiancé's fantasies, then you should stop encouraging her in them. Or perhaps find another woman, less inclined to this fairly common fantasy, who will be more compatible with your sexual mores.


I didn't courage her to leave her send behind. that is why we suck counseling. and as you said that's what we're supposed to be doing as Christians. however this does not mean that I am NOT capable of sending. I could make the argument that her sharing her son with me has cost me to stumble into sexual sense. because that type of fantasy is commonly known as being a typical male fantasy. Also, as a Christian it's not about whether or not I think homosexuality is a sin but rather my decision to follow God who in the Bible condemns homosexuality is a sin. I wasn't using her weakness against her. I was using the sand in my own mind about it and exercise in it. there's a difference in intent. when you're in a relationship and then a Christian relationship behaviors and or send are going to collide. You make it sound as if I'm some evil person intentionally trying to hurt my wife or exploit her. Also, I'm not like a priest in your description. And, I didn't condemn her. this is an issue that we are working on together as a couple. The issue I'm posting about I did one single time. As I tried to explain and others have comprehend it accurately it is about whether my partner is in 10 I'll with her car to her sexuality or if this is a battle that she says she has overcome but it's actually still there. if she was so strong against it when the situation arose she wouldn't have gladly participated in it but actually taking a stand. I didn't force her to do anything. I engaged yet. but with all we've been through a possible response considering this was her and our issue to workout was to take a stand against it and she didn't so this is why I'm questioning and seeking some advice. I would really appreciate if people could offer some constructive advice instead of constant criticism its not helpful and its argumentative and it doesn't make your point or give your opinion any attention irrelevance other than arguing . a lot of people want to fight in these threads and I don't get it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Of course I don't know her so can only surmise her intent from what you have described.

I guess my question is if you (as a couple) find it a sin to indulge this fantasy as part of your sex life. If it is a fantasy you both find arousing and it is adding variety to your sex life as a married couple - is this sin or is this harmless sex play?

As myself and others have been saying - you can have a fantasy through your whole life and not even get close to acting upon it. Just because you find a scenario arousing in theory does not mean you are going to be drug towards acting it out in real life. 

However if you and your wife agree it is sinful to indulge this fantasy in your sex life then there really is no other option than to stop doing it. What is best for the marriage and the couple needs to come first.

Honestly from what you have described I don't think shes sexually confused. I would bet on repressed. Its different. As I said in my first post to you - Ive been there myself. My sexually restricted upbringing has manifested itself in strange ways. I have a huge drawer filled with stockings and garter belt and corsets, many of which still have the tags on. I own upwards of 60 bra and undie sets. I do none of this for my husband. I have them because they make me feel safe. They are a tangible sign that I own my sexuality - not the religious environment I grew up in.
been thdrawer or stockings and garter belts that


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Sorry, posting from a kindle and cant edit that last duplicate line.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Pull those tags off and put some of that sexy wear on your body, Scarlett!


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Girl, I'm always wearing matching nice looking stuff. Garter belts and corsets are not so comfortable though! Well, okay, if you insist....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh heck yeah....it hurts to look this sexy! A little pain makes it more fun!


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

broder62 said:


> I didn't courage her to leave her send behind. that is why we suck counseling. and as you said that's what we're supposed to be doing as Christians. however this does not mean that I am NOT capable of sending. I could make the argument that her sharing her son with me has cost me to stumble into sexual sense. because that type of fantasy is commonly known as being a typical male fantasy. Also, as a Christian it's not about whether or not I think homosexuality is a sin but rather my decision to follow God who in the Bible condemns homosexuality is a sin. I wasn't using her weakness against her. I was using the sand in my own mind about it and exercise in it. there's a difference in intent. when you're in a relationship and then a Christian relationship behaviors and or send are going to collide. You make it sound as if I'm some evil person intentionally trying to hurt my wife or exploit her. Also, I'm not like a priest in your description. And, I didn't condemn her. this is an issue that we are working on together as a couple. The issue I'm posting about I did one single time. As I tried to explain and others have comprehend it accurately it is about whether my partner is in 10 I'll with her car to her sexuality or if this is a battle that she says she has overcome but it's actually still there. if she was so strong against it when the situation arose she wouldn't have gladly participated in it but actually taking a stand. I didn't force her to do anything. I engaged yet. but with all we've been through a possible response considering this was her and our issue to workout was to take a stand against it and she didn't so this is why I'm questioning and seeking some advice. I would really appreciate if people could offer some constructive advice instead of constant criticism its not helpful and its argumentative and it doesn't make your point or give your opinion any attention irrelevance other than arguing . a lot of people want to fight in these threads and I don't get it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it just me, or does this OP simply not make any sense at all? Maybe an English as a second language issue? Or a troll because of all the "none of your advice is any good and is unhelpful" type jargon? It wont be long until this OP is banned.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

eyuop said:


> Is it just me, or does this OP simply not make any sense at all? Maybe an English as a second language issue? Or a troll because of all the "none of your advice is any good and is unhelpful" type jargon? It wont be long until this OP is banned.


Not sure what he is saying either in the last post, but I think he's typing from his phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Another "Christianity is what I say it is" thread. 

She who fantasizes of muff diving shall be condemned. Mark 93:56.

Beaver clambake is forbidden to the woman.  Romans 104:23.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

mablenc said:


> Not sure what he is saying either in the last post, but I think he's typing from his phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And how hard is it to type correctly from a phone? It is just so painful to read that it isn't fair to us readers.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

eyuop said:


> And how hard is it to type correctly from a phone? It is just so painful to read that it isn't fair to us readers.


Not justifying him, I also think he was upset, not and excuse either. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

All kinds of sexual shame, homophobia, 'former lesbian' therapist. LOL. The wonderful world of religion strikes again.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

its called talk to text on my cell phone.Miss Scarlet seems to understand perfectly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

its not religion.its individual person's beliefit's also not be a. its disagreement.its values. they are subjectiveand individual choice.attacking someone who disagrees is is doing what you accusethe victim of what you're doing. this is just a side note.apparently, there are some religious phobias hereor do you just disagree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

send some are sharing links I thought others also might find this interesting but perhaps provocative. How I went from committed lesbian to a happily married mother of four | Mail Online
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

broder62 said:


> its called talk to text on my cell phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


May I suggest you stop doing it then? It's very hard to decipher exactly what you mean in your posts.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

broder62 said:


> It's interesting that you wrote this and thank you for an intelligent and contributory reply instead of the others who think they are somehow creative, clever and have nothing to offer but put down, judgements and sarcasm to a serious issue and someone seeking advice. It takes no intelligence to respond like a five year old would if someone said booby. Back to your comment....she said in counseling that she began fantasizing when she began masturbating in her 20s. She was introduced to lesbian porn by her than boyfriend. She says she thought that was hot. The fantasies are that she is being forced to have sex with a woman by a woman. She said the appeal was doing something taboo. She says that's the attraction. Her other fantasies during masturbation are seduced by a doctor during an exam and the other taking nude pics for a photographer and he invites another woman to take pictures with her. Him asking her to do this and that with her and ultimately a threesome breaks out. She said she never once had any relationship of any kind with any woman or ever sought one. She says she would never want one. She says she analyzed this deeply for months in Christian counseling from a counselor who was a former lesbian and the counselor agreed she is not lesbian or bi but that the bad relationship...traumatic actually that she had with her mother is the underlying reason as well as the controlling father that suppressed the mother who was expected being in a polish family to serve the fathers every whim....and her mother did. Like most Christians and what I perceive as normal as she does as well is heterosexual....natures design. As a guy....obviously their is a humanistic attraction towards two women. Do I want it's real life...no. I agree and believe with the bibles position on it. Shoot me. I'm allowed to be in agreement with the bible and don't feel ultra liberated to have boundary less sex nor do I care what today's society dictates what's okay or not. My religion is not the issue. But it's relevant. I understand my feelings and the inner conflict in me. Imdo have trouble understanding doing lesbianism because its taboo. I wouldn't masturbate of gay sex with a man because its taboo. I would think of a million other things. I don't know if its the fluid nature of females and emotions that make it easier or less offensive or is my partner a bisexual in denial. She does have domination based fantasies as her MO when we've shared them. Everyone taking a stab at being Christian and dealing with these issues somehow is under some belief that Christian means we are perfect. No. It means we recognize we are not and we desire to live like Christ but we wrestle with the world, our environment and all kinds of issues that you may or may not deal with. And they are real to us.
> 
> I would appreciate more feedback from you. It sounds like you understand.


Former lesbian. Love it..Sorry man. I laugh at Boobies sometimes as well. Sexual orientation is not a choice and your wife.?.? is turned on by watching woman. That does not mean she wants to do anything lesbian like, it does not mean she does not either. She would never admit that to you due to the close minded nature of Christians as it pertains to this topic. And don't knock us for judging... You Christians take the cake on that front. Anything we feel differently about makes us wrong and sinners. How convenient a rule you all have. So now she does not masturbate either... that's healthy. Wow lets see what other repression we can conjure up for your wife. She spoke about it so I think talking should be out next. Most of us do not believe you think you think you are perfect for being Christian, we just think from living on earth that Christian behavior is close minded to anything but Christian behavior. Your statements about what is expected from her prove that right. Is it the devil causing her to want a fantasy life? I doubt it. My guess is boredom has or will set in eventually and you will me miserable in your marriage because your wife will be vilified for her thoughts and eventually will either turn in to a religious robot or worse and end up doing some crazy things you find out about later.
I am off to Texas to get an abortion. See you all later. Oh wait...


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

broder62 said:


> its not religion.its individual person's beliefit's also not be a. its disagreement.its values. they are subjectiveand individual choice.attacking someone who disagrees is is doing what you accusethe victim of what you're doing. this is just a side note.apparently, there are some religious phobias hereor do you just disagree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are the 10,000th poster who claims he is God's personal representative on earth, which is so transperently saying you are God. Saying you are "following God", meaning following yourself. Holier than thou doublespeak. 

But then you can turn around and claim it is all personal subjective opinion when you want to guilt-trip people who disagree with God (you). Play the victim after playing God. 

Whether you were already this manipulative prior to becoming God or whether being God has required these kinds of tactics you are using with shaming, guilt-tripping, name-calling, playing the victim, etc. - this is clearly a problem that is going to haunt you in every corner of your life.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

broder62 said:


> its not religion.its individual person's beliefit's also not be a. its disagreement.its values. they are subjectiveand individual choice.attacking someone who disagrees is is doing what you accusethe victim of what you're doing. this is just a side note.apparently, there are some religious phobias hereor do you just disagree.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No I agree. Religion scares the hell out of me. It takes away women's rights, it is the cause of almost every war around the world and it takes away the basic human rights of gays and lesbian people every where. So yes I am scared of what it does. It is good business though. those lemmings pay good money to sit on a wooden bench and be told to live their lives by a code that oppresses people that feel differently than they do.


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## Thunder7 (Jan 2, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> No I agree. Religion scares the hell out of me. It takes away women's rights, it is the cause of almost every war around the world and it takes away the basic human rights of gays and lesbian people every where. So yes I am scared of what it does. It is good business though. those lemmings pay good money to sit on a wooden bench and be told to live their lives by a code that oppresses people that feel differently than they do.


I wish I could like this post more than once.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Former lesbian. Love it..Sorry man. I laugh at Boobies sometimes as well. Sexual orientation is not a choice and your wife.?.? is turned on by watching woman. That does not mean she wants to do anything lesbian like, it does not mean she does not either. She would never admit that to you due to the close minded nature of Christians as it pertains to this topic. And don't knock us for judging... You Christians take the cake on that front. Anything we feel differently about makes us wrong and sinners. How convenient a rule you all have. So now she does not masturbate either... that's healthy. Wow lets see what other repression we can conjure up for your wife. She spoke about it so I think talking should be out next. Most of us do not believe you think you think you are perfect for being Christian, we just think from living on earth that Christian behavior is close minded to anything but Christian behavior. Your statements about what is expected from her prove that right. Is it the devil causing her to want a fantasy life? I doubt it. My guess is boredom has or will set in eventually and you will me miserable in your marriage because your wife will be vilified for her thoughts and eventually will either turn in to a religious robot or worse and end up doing some crazy things you find out about later.
> I am off to Texas to get an abortion. See you all later. Oh wait...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Thunder7 said:


> I wish I could like this post more than once.


You should hear what I do to the Mormons that come to my door. Had 2 of them dig fence holes for half a day last year. Keep talking boys you can talk as long as you dig.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

My partner chose not to masturbate and felt guilty of her homosexual fantasies because she by her choice is a Christian which means laying down your life for Christ's life and your life becomes about God and not you. Its a lifelong transformation process. We share the same values. So....its not complicated to understand that regardless of the origin of the values when they are compromised inner conflict occurs. We have similar values, try to live by them because we want to. Your interpretationsmay appease you but they don't reflect the truth of us or our situation despite your belief they do. So...if you can speak to the issue I asked advice about instead of bringing your anti religious phobias into it....that would be an effective contribution to the actual post.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

broder....can you possibly wrap up what the actual QUESTION you have is so that people who might help you can help you?

Here's the closest thing to a QUESTION I can find in your post # 38

"but with all we've been through a possible response considering this was her and our issue to workout was to take a stand against it and she didn't so this is why I'm questioning and seeking some advice."

My interpretation of this as a "question" is that you are essentially saying, if she is so against this lesbian stuff, why did she go along with it and like my tongue like it was a clit?

Did I get that right?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

broder62 said:


> My partner chose not to masturbate and felt guilty of her homosexual fantasies because she by her choice is a Christian which means laying down your life for Christ's life and your life becomes about God and not you. Its a lifelong transformation process. We share the same values. So....its not complicated to understand that regardless of the origin of the values when they are compromised inner conflict occurs. We have similar values, try to live by them because we want to. Your interpretationsmay appease you but they don't reflect the truth of us or our situation despite your belief they do. So...if you can speak to the issue I asked advice about instead of bringing your anti religious phobias into it....that would be an effective contribution to the actual post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's been my question all along, if she feels guilty about her fantasies why are you bring in them up during sex? I get it's a fantasy for you too but, then you get mad at her for participating? 

Are you subconsciously using this to test her? Or do you happen to fall into the fantasy hence the problem between you two?


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## ScrewedEverything (May 14, 2013)

broder62 said:


> {_*Edited to be readable*_} I can't stop fantasizing about her having sex with other women. When we make love, I harbor this fantasy in my mind. Well, this past weekend, we were making love and I thought to shape my tongue like it was a clitoris. She caught on and kissed my mouth like it was a woman's vagina. This really turned me on but disturbed me at the same time. So, I'm very confused. She says that she did not enjoy it but was doing it for me. I'm also aware that she could be lying about why she kissed me that way and/or in denial about the possibility that she has bi/homosexual tendencies. I'm very hurt and she is very hurt by this situation, yet I think we are both turned on by it. We both are unsure what to do and how to handle this situation and the feelings associated with it.


Going back to your original post and setting aside, for the purposes of discussion, all the issues regarding religion and value judgments regarding homosexuality, I think the real issue here is you and not your fiance.

She, like almost every other person in the world, had fantasies that she enjoyed thinking about but never intended to act upon. The difference for her was that the mere existence of these thoughts caused her some moral angst so she attempted to deal with that problem through counselling and self-reflection. All good.

Then you come along, bro, and find that you also enjoy her fantasy , only you take it a step further by purposely putting yourself out there as a proxy and implicitly asking her to act out her fantasy on you. Then you freak out on her because she does what you want and you enjoy it. Somehow you reach the conclusion that she's more into the fantasy than you.

It sounds to me like the problem may be that you skipped ahead to Advanced Kinky Lovemaking before you established the basic mutual security and confidence levels you get by going through Sex 101. My advice would be, since the fantasy causes you both such angst, you should put that particular genie back in the bottle and leave it there. Focus on "regular" sex until you both get comfortable with the fact that your real enjoyment comes from each other. Then you will be comfortable that any lesbianism fantasies, non-angst-causing fantasies, whipped cream, handcuffs or whatever else you throw in the mix along the way is just spice, not the meal.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

broder62 said:


> My partner chose not to masturbate and felt guilty of her homosexual fantasies because she by her choice is a Christian which means laying down your life for Christ's life and your life becomes about God and not you. Its a lifelong transformation process. We share the same values. So....its not complicated to understand that regardless of the origin of the values when they are compromised inner conflict occurs. We have similar values, try to live by them because we want to. Your interpretationsmay appease you but they don't reflect the truth of us or our situation despite your belief they do. So...if you can speak to the issue I asked advice about instead of bringing your anti religious phobias into it....that would be an effective contribution to the actual post.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can. If you two are to continue along this path then deny yourselves of any pleasure that is in any way possibly construed as homosexual. to include kissing like your tonguing a clit. Since you are ok with her choice to not pleasure herself then I think it would be rather selfish to continue wanting to do this due to it being a turn on. For either of you.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

You seem to have other post here, are they all about the same person? 

If so, have you worked on the other issues? If you haven't, could it be you are dwelling on this, so you don't have to work on the main problems? If its the same person, it seems you are worried about her cheating. 

I'm trying to see what the main problem is, not looking to get you more upset. sometimes we are complaining about symptoms rather than the main problem.
I hope this makes sense.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

broder62 said:


> ...one of the more disturbing things that she admitted to me that she fantasized about having sex with other women. since she is a Christian, she knowledged that this was sinful and we sought therapy together. Christian counseling actually. she said that she only had these thoughts when she was masturbating. ...


This is what really disturbs me:



broder62 said:


> .....she fantasized about having sex with other women...this was sinful....


And this:



broder62 said:


> ...She says she analyzed this deeply for months in Christian counseling from a counselor who was a former lesbian ....


Intolerance and religion....they often hold hands way too often.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

mablenc said:


> You seem to have other post here, are they all about the same person?
> 
> If so, have you worked on the other issues? If you haven't, could it be you are dwelling on this, so you don't have to work on the main problems? If its the same person, it seems you are worried about her cheating.
> 
> ...


to all taking this guy seriously, read his other posts. I just did and this guy is a joke.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Different person
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

mablenc said:


> That's been my question all along, if she feels guilty about her fantasies why are you bring in them up during sex? I get it's a fantasy for you too but, then you get mad at her for participating?
> 
> Are you subconsciously using this to test her? Or do you happen to fall into the fantasy hence the problem between you two?


I brought it in 1 time. But....my question is how do I determine if she is bisexual or lesbian or in denial or confused about her true orientation
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

broder62 said:


> My partner chose not to masturbate and felt guilty of her homosexual fantasies because she by her choice is a Christian which means laying down your life for Christ's life and your life becomes about God and not you.


You keep pretending you are God's personal envoy on earth. 




> regardless of the origin of the values when they are compromised inner conflict occurs.


Look at you first saying God is the source of the values and using that to defend them, but then saying it doesn't matter what the source of the values is.

God is not the source of the values, you are. Stop bashing other people for bringing religion into it when you are making it the centerpiece of your own illogical thinking.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

ScrewedEverything said:


> Going back to your original post and setting aside, for the purposes of discussion, all the issues regarding religion and value judgments regarding homosexuality, I think the real issue here is you and not your fiance.
> 
> She, like almost every other person in the world, had fantasies that she enjoyed thinking about but never intended to act upon. The difference for her was that the mere existence of these thoughts caused her some moral angst so she attempted to deal with that problem through counselling and self-reflection. All good.
> 
> ...


Inaccurate. Read what I wrote not what you think I wrote or meant because everything becomes irrelevant at that point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> I can. If you two are to continue along this path then deny yourselves of any pleasure that is in any way possibly construed as homosexual. to include kissing like your tonguing a clit. Since you are ok with her choice to not pleasure herself then I think it would be rather selfish to continue wanting to do this due to it being a turn on. For either of you.


where did I say I wanted to do this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

If she were gay she would have feelings towards you that were platonic. She would have feelings of lust, have crushes and feel sexual attraction towards women. This likely would have happened to her in life and she would know it by now.

If shes bisexual I imagine its neither here nor there. If shes going to be with you she is going to be with you. I have one friend who is bisexual - shes married to a man and has never so much as kissed a woman - but she knows she has had crushes on women and finds women sexually attractive.

There is a whole grey area. For example I became sexually aroused at a strip club. However I am not gay or bi. The reason I got aroused was because of the overt sexual nature and my past sexual repression. These ladies were being overtly sexual and doing something they shouldn't do and I'm a woman and I'm in here! I'm a bad girl by association..

All you can do is take her at her word. None of us have any guarantees in marriage. We all might get left for someone else. We all may find we are not enough. When you get married you are at the mercy of that person to treat you with respect and kindness. Some spouses will and some wont. No guarantees.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> You keep pretending you are God's personal envoy on earth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Context is needed to comprehend. I can't help you with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

MissScarlet....may I pm you because you reflect much of the things she has communicated and think you can offer some help in my understanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Davelli0331 said:


> So basically you've already picked out the answer you want to hear and you're just waiting for someone to validate it without you having to lead them to it directly.
> 
> Even if you discount the posts questioning your religious beliefs, others have offered genuine advice, perspective, and asked for clarification. You have sidestepped all that because it's not the advice you apparently want to hear.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Already clarified. Your assertion is not how I feel or true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

broder62 said:


> MissScarlet....may I pm you because you reflect much of the things she has communicated and think you can offer some help in my understanding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes you may - but I should warn you that I can see my messages on my kindle but cant get the reply box to come up - so I will not be able to get back to you until I can get on the main computer.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

broder62 said:


> I brought it in 1 time. But....my question is how do I determine if she is bisexual or lesbian or in denial or confused about her true orientation
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Based on what you have posted I don't think you can determinate it, I don't even know if she can.

I would think she's not a lesbian because she's with you, but some people who feel homosexualy is a sin may marry and avoid acting on their impulses.

As stated before its a common fantasy, but it's a hard call. It would suggest a sex therapist or a psychologist. While it may help to reach into your religion for counseling, the Person who you are seeking specializes in religous matters and may not be qualified to help her with this mental or physical situation.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

broder62 said:


> Context is needed to comprehend.


Diversionary twaddle. 




> I can't help you with that.


Heh. Who started this thread asking for help with his sexual problems? You did.

So it's pretty humorous watching you pretend this thread is about us asking YOU for help.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Where did you clarify what your question is broder?


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Where did you clarify what your question is broder?



Originally Posted by broder62 
I brought it in 1 time. But....my question is how do I determine if she is bisexual or lesbian or in denial or confused about her true orientation
Posted via Mobile Device


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Where did you clarify what your question is broder?


My post at 4:58pm.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> to all taking this guy seriously, read his other posts. I just did and this guy is a joke.





broder62 said:


> Different person
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How is it a different person? You were posting about polygraphs and cheating and whatnot in March...your first post in this thread said you've been with your fiancee since September. Sounds like the same person to me.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Wow. Just wow.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

I had a bunch of comments of this thread - essentially I saw people on both sides arguing about religion when it wasn't necessary, and bashing Christianity and the OP when that really wasn't necessary.

But now it looks like the whole thread isn't for real, so whatever. 

But I am curious about this:



norajane said:


> It doesn't mean she is lesbian or bi or anything other than she is a sexual being who has fantasies.


Several people have said something similiar in this thread. *But the very definition of being gay or bi is attraction to members of your own sex*. If it's a constant fantasy for her, to the point where she even essentially pretends her husband is a woman, then how could she not be either gay or bi????

If a man watches gay porn, fantasies about men, pretends his wife is a man when they have sex, yet he claims he is not gay or bi, then it's pretty obvious he's in serious denial. It shouldn't be any different for women. 

Certainly that doesn't mean she will necessarily act on it, but it's there nonetheless. Let's be honest here.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"But the very definition of being gay or bi is attraction to members of your own sex."

No, it isn't.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Theseus said:


> I had a bunch of comments of this thread - essentially I saw people on both sides arguing about religion when it wasn't necessary, and bashing Christianity and the OP when that really wasn't necessary.
> 
> But now it looks like the whole thread isn't for real, so whatever.
> 
> ...


Well, I think part of the problem is that labels such as "gay" and "bi" are social constructs. That is, there is the biological fact of "human sexuality," and, within it, there are many, many different behaviors and types that get categorized and ranked depending on historical, social, cultural, familial and gender contexts. 

Is there a line beyond which, if you step, you move from being straight to bi? And then another line beyond which you are now gay? I don't think so. I think of human sexuality as a set of continuums, and we all exist along those continuums somewhere. Take the continuum of gender-based desire. At one end you have people strongly attracted to only their own gender, at the other, you have people strongly attracted to only the opposite gender. Two individuals can share the exact same point on the continuum, yet one idenifies as straight, the other as gay or bi. Sexual identity does not exist as an objective measure. It's a construct. It cannot be bestowed *upon* an individual, only adopted *by* the individual. 

In a previous post on this thread, I described how I strongly eroticize the feminine, yet am not bi or gay. Some other woman might eroticize similarly, and self-identify as as bi or gay. There is a whole lot more that goes into adopting a cultural sexual identify than just the relative strength of same-gender desire. 

This is not to say that individuals are always clear on their identity. Our culture tends to stress that you must "know" what you are, that adopting a sexual identifier is essential to defining the self. You can't just BE on your little point on the sexual continuum--you must translate that being into a category by which the rest of society can understand you, and you can understand yourself. You are suspect if you don't shoehorn yourself into SOME category. I am gratified to see that there is some broadening of social understanding of this, particularly as transgendered individuals begin to gain a voice, but at the same time I'm not sure if, in the end, it will mean much more than adding more categories to choose from. 

Fascinating topic!


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Theseus said:


> I had a bunch of comments of this thread - essentially I saw people on both sides arguing about religion when it wasn't necessary, and bashing Christianity and the OP when that really wasn't necessary.
> 
> But now it looks like the whole thread isn't for real, so whatever.
> 
> ...


The thing is, he's the one who engaged her in acting our the fantasy for all we know she may have participated to please him as he was fantasying with a three way.

And I have never read or heard about straight men fantasizing with men being as commen as it is with women.


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## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Is it really okay to be attacking the OP for nothing more than his personal religious preference? He has a right to his beliefs, just like you do, and I find it absolutely hypocritical that so many people here are being sarcastic and hateful towards him, all while saying _his_ religion is hateful and hypocritical. It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not, just lay off the attacks. They are entirely and completely unnecessary.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "But the very definition of being gay or bi is attraction to members of your own sex."
> 
> No, it isn't.


Well, I decided to look it up anyway. 


Here is the dictionary definition for homosexual:

_": of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward another of the same sex"_


And the definition of bisexual:

_": of, relating to, or characterized by a tendency to direct sexual desire toward both sexes"_


Seems pretty clear-cut to me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If only it were that simple, we could label other people so much easier, right?

It would make things so much easier for some people if we could say "oh yeah, you have ****-sexual thoughts occasionally? Welp, you're clearly gay."

And even if that person said "I don't identify my sexual orientation as gay," some could retort with "well look at the _DEFINITION_ of gay, you silly!"

But unfortunately for your way of seeing it, we don't get to decide what another person's sexual orientation is...THEY do.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

mablenc said:


> The thing is, he's the one who engaged her in acting our the fantasy for all we know she may have participated to please him as he was fantasying with a three way.


He made it pretty clear that her fantasies predated him, but then again, his whole situation could have been made up. 



> And I have never read or heard about straight men fantasizing with men being as commen as it is with women.


Probably because true bisexuality is relatively common in women, but extremely rare in men.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

broder62 said:


> I'm on a mobile phone typing this so I'll make it quick. my fiance and I have been together since September. the sexual relationship is very good. however, one of the more disturbing things that she admitted to me that she fantasized about having sex with other women. since she is a Christian, she knowledged that this was sinful and we sought therapy together. Christian counseling actually. she said that she only had these thoughts when she was masturbating. since January she no longer masturbate.she says she has overcome these thoughts. however, over the course of the relationship, id: can fantasizing about her having sex with other women. so what times when we make love I would Harbor this fantasy my mind. well, this past weekend we were making love and I think n 2 shape my tongue like it was a clitoris.she caught on and they can kiss in my mouth like it was a womans vagina. it really turns me on disturbed me at the same time.so, I'm very confused. she says that she did not enjoy it but was doing it for me. even know she is honest and we've gone through therapy I'm also aware that she could be lying or in denial to the situation.this has become a psycho sexual situation. I'm very hurt and she is very hurt by this. yet I think we are both turned on by it.we both are unsure what to do and how to handle this situation and the feelings associated with it. thank you foryour thoughtful advice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I too believe in God and Christ on the cross but I am no goodie goodie, nor do I profess to be.

When my gf (wife to be) and I were just dating, lots of making out and oral sex. We waited until we got married before going all the way and that her birth control was effective for the last 6 months.

I have fantasies of two or three lesbian women going at it and that is my porn weakness. I love women.

Just because I'm God fearing doesn't mean I'm perfect and don't sin. Quite the contrary. I'm human full of sin and weaknesses just like the next guy.

Your woman might be bi-sexual or a lesbian, that's a possibility.

Make 100% sure before you get married to her because if down the road, she decides after all, I like women, maybe have a 3-some and then only wants women at that point, you get divorced and will be quite bitter.

Only way I can almost eliminate my sexual fantasy is not to view it. The more I think about it and view it, the more it gets into my head and pretty soon, I am thinking about it all the time. This is learned behavior and can be controlled. Either you indulge in everything that pops in your head or you keep those fantasies as just that and behave like an adult and not an animal.

Last time I checked, we have freedom of speech and religion. Everyone is free to believe whatever they want without ridicule or persecution, right? That also applies to this post.

Right now, I could tell my wifee I'm going out with the guys, but instead go to a bar and meet one or two hot young women who want sex all night. Do I run out and do this? No. It's called self control and I don't act on my fantasies, impulses and what pops into my head. Now, I would love it if I could, but does that mean its genetic? No. If I do this once, I'll do it again down the road and again and then its normal to me and it must be genetics. Nope. Learned behavior. Do it more and more and you think its normal, whatever it might be.

Men love women. If us men can have two attractive women making out, even better. We are visual and the more the better. We are built on test and that makes us horny most of the time. You see a hot women wearing something sexy kissing another hot women.......you'll get guys attention.

I'm sure you'll work it out and I wish you guys a happy marriage.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I think it is not clear cut due to social norms. In our culture woman on woman action is not only a fantasy of a large percentage of men but women are encouraged to be together sexually regardless of their orientation. I daresay most of the porn out there showing two women together portray beautiful women with perfect bodies who are only having sex together to arouse men. 

There is no male equivalent in our society. Men are not encouraged to engage is sex together unless they are gay. This type of porn appeals almost exclusively to the gay male population. Even when men are growing up there is a huge stigma attatched to being gay. Whereas with women its more a naughty thing that straight girls can engage in for noteriety.

Ive kissed another woman once - both my husband and her husband were there and encouraged us strongly to do it and both were aroused by it. In our society it is within the heterosexual norm for two women to 'experiment'. There is no male equivilant in the heterosexual norm.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Theseus said:


> Well, I decided to look it up anyway.
> 
> 
> Here is the dictionary definition for homosexual:
> ...



If this was the case, the lesbian and bisexual community would be up by a large number of females. Even if they never had sex with another women.

Here's the definition of fantasy 
noun (plural fantasies)
The faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable:


It's really not that clear cut to me. This is why I think the OP and his wife are struggling.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> If only it were that simple, we could label other people so much easier, right?
> 
> It would make things so much easier for some people if we could say "oh yeah, you have ****-sexual thoughts occasionally? Welp, you're clearly gay."



FW, your sarcasm is both unhelpful and unnecessary. First of all, there is such a thing as bisexuality, so I wouldn't call everyone "clearly gay" anyway. Second of all, the wife here (if the letter is to be believed, which is a big "if") is obsessed with fantasies of women to the point where she's even pretending her husband is a woman when they make love. I just don't see how that description could fit any definition of someone who was 100% heterosexual. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole. 



> And even if that person said "I don't identify my sexual orientation as gay," some could retort with "well look at the _DEFINITION_ of gay, you silly!"
> 
> But unfortunately for your way of seeing it, we don't get to decide what another person's sexual orientation is...THEY do.



She can decide she's a trisexual winged fairy from Mars for all I care. If she wants to be in denial, it's no skin off my nose. However, if I'm her husband, or I'm considering giving this couple advice, I prefer to use more realistic definitions with a commonality that we can all understand. Too many people want to avoid the label "bisexual" for personal reasons that have nothing to do with the issue at hand, for example because society has told them it's an insult (my own wife falls in this category) - but that has little to do with whether they are bi or gay.

Take your fight to Merriam Webster if you don't like their definition, but I'm curious what you would replace it with.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

listen you picking a person to be your partner in life. that a big decission. 

you should put a big emphisis on compatibility inside and outside the bedroom.

if her thoughs and or actions are cause for consern then better make sure now. If it bothers you then its a problem and you should listen to your inner self. Its ok not to marry someone that your not compatible with. 

good luck


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Theusus...I am bi-sexual and have been openly out my entire adult life. I know a bit about gay and bi-sexual people and issues and sexual orientation. There are quite a lot of hateful things that have gone down against gay and bi-sexual people, and that is why I stand up against statements like "the very definition of gay"....you can call it sarcasm if you want...and I'll call your statements ignorant if I want.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> are quite a lot of hateful things that have gone down against gay and bi-sexual people, and that is why I stand up against statements like "the very definition of gay"....you can call it sarcasm if you want...and I'll call your statements ignorant if I want.



FW, I think maybe you misunderstand me. When I say the "definition of gay" maybe you think I meant the word "gay" as an insult? That was NOT what I meant at all. *I literally meant the actual definition of the word*, which is why I gave you the dictionary definition. 

BTW, if you don't define a homosexual or bisexual as someone attracted to their own sex, how on Earth else would you define it?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Theseus...I can only define my own sexual orientation, that's the point. I don't dare to define someone else's. There is a lot of information about this out there.

Start here:

Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Princess Puffin'stuff (Mar 8, 2013)

Theseus said:


> FW, I think maybe you misunderstand me. When I say the "definition of gay" maybe you think I meant the word "gay" as an insult? That was NOT what I meant at all. *I literally meant the actual definition of the word*, which is why I gave you the dictionary definition.
> 
> BTW, if you don't define a homosexual or bisexual as someone attracted to their own sex, how on Earth else would you define it?



Theseus is correct. I think Faithful Wife may be confusing the terms sex and gender.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

LOL! Yeah, Theseus is "correct".


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Theseus said:


> FW, your sarcasm is both unhelpful and unnecessary. First of all, there is such a thing as bisexuality, so I wouldn't call everyone "clearly gay" anyway. Second of all, the wife here (if the letter is to be believed, which is a big "if") is obsessed with fantasies of women to the point where she's even pretending her husband is a woman when they make love. I just don't see how that description could fit any definition of someone who was 100% heterosexual. It's like putting a square peg in a round hole.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wife is bi? Does this mean your wife have additional sex partners in your relationship? Or does it just mean she is attracted to them but doesn't act on it?


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## Princess Puffin'stuff (Mar 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> LOL! Yeah, Theseus is "correct".



I'm not sure if this sarcasm or not. 

I understand what you're saying. I'm only talking about terminology here. I don't believe anyone is intentionally questioning your (or my - lesbian here) self-identified gender or sexual predispositions. I think the wording is the issue in this conversation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Theseus said that the fact that the wife of this OP has same sex fantasies means she is bi-sexual. I am saying, NO, that does not "mean she is bi-sexual". That's all I'm saying.

She might be, she might not be, but no one else gets to label her that way from the simple information that she has had same sex fantasies.


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## Princess Puffin'stuff (Mar 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Theseus said that the fact that the wife of this OP has same sex fantasies means she is bi-sexual. I am saying, NO, that does not "mean she is bi-sexual". That's all I'm saying.
> 
> She might be, she might not be, but no one else gets to label her that way from the simple information that she has had same sex fantasies.


Linguistics geek here. I think that's the problem. We're getting caught up in a term that has an emotional "definition" while it is also a word with an actual, set definition. He may be viewing this word/term in the binary and you in the abstract.

But, whatever...


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Created2Write said:


> Is it really okay to be attacking the OP for nothing more than his personal religious preference?


Oh sure, just excuse his denigration of gays and bisexuals. All we have to do is hide behind "religious preference" and we can attack whomever we please. 





> He has a right to his beliefs, just like you do, and I find it absolutely hypocritical that so many people here are being sarcastic and hateful towards him, all while saying _his_ religion is hateful and hypocritical. It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not, just lay off the attacks. They are entirely and completely unnecessary.


Perfect, thanks. This is the Hitler defense. You can't criticize him for the Holocaust because then you're a hypocrite for "attacking" him.

The original action in this thread that represented an attack on a minority group was his. We are not just allowed, but have a duty to protect minorities from persecution. Labeling such people as evil is the foundation upon which that persecution rests. 

And by the way, your attacks on other people right here make you a hypocrite by your own logic.


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

I didn't attack anyone. All I did was describe the situation. Me not agreeing with homosexuality isn't an attack, it's identifying how I feel. You accepting homosexuality as your values does not mean you are attacking me or my faith....however....that's not what is happening....I'm being attacked directly for my beliefs and/or value system. I don't like strawberry ice cream. Is that okay? Strawberry ice cream did nothing to me. It's not because it's pink or the third wheel when it comes to ice cream to chocolate and vanilla. I just don't like it. If strawberry is something you like, that's fine....why do I need to like strawberry ice cream? Because accepting everything in life is what you think everyone should do?


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## broder62 (Aug 17, 2012)

Religion and God is like saying Christmas and kids. If you don't like religion or God or people who associate or try to associate with it (for whatever reason - just fill it in here), that's fine. Obviously, if I read the bible, am a Christian (meaning I believe Jesus is the Son of God who died on the cross for the salvation of the world) and I choose to believe the entire bible, including the maps, and the bible says "X" is a sin.....I'm going to adopt, by choice, that "X" is a sin. If I communicate that as my belief, and the source - and you just don't like it, have a problem with it, are mad that I don't think like you - than you have the problem with me, not me with you. Attacking me for my belief because I don't agree with you is the very thing you are accusing me of. I don't agree with smoking, scat and many other things in life - sexual or non-sexual. I don't understand the problem. And for someone who wrote that I'm acting like I'm God's envoy - I don't know where you got that from but it wasn't from me.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Theseus...I can only define my own sexual orientation, that's the point. I don't dare to define someone else's.



I am curious why you are specifically so uncomfortable with that. People use definitions and labels on TAM all the time: WS, OM, abuser, victim, passive-aggressive, religious, etc. Why is this different? If you truly think that only the wife in question can "diagnose" herself, then that's your prerogative, but she is not the one writing to the forum here so we can't ask her anything.



> There is a lot of information about this out there.
> 
> Start here:
> 
> Kinsey scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I am familiar with that scale, but it doesn't contradict the standard definitions of gay/straight or bi. 

BTW, Kinsey's ideas are no longer as widely embraced as they once were, since his earlier research was later found to be greatly flawed. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Theseus said that the fact that the wife of this OP has same sex fantasies means she is bi-sexual.


If your own fantasy isn't a reflection of yourself, then what is? And to be fair, she was taking the fantasy to rather extreme levels, even pretending her husband was a woman.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

broder62 said:


> I choose to believe the entire bible, including the maps, and the bible says "X" is a sin.....I'm going to adopt, by choice, that "X" is a sin.


Then you are in luck here, because what your wife is doing is not listed in the Bible as a sin, as long as she isn't fantasizing about someone else's wife. Even actively engaging in woman/woman sex is never specifically condemned in the Old or New Testaments, although Romans 1:26-27 hints at it.


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## Battleworn (Jun 24, 2013)

I am going to be honest and say that I only read the first post and am replying directly to that. 

So you know that she has fantasies about sex with women, and then you actively enabled that fantasy by allowing her to make out with your mouth as though it were a vagina?

Okay. So that happened.

I really don't understand how you could be so concerned about her when you are the one who initiated the questionable kissing to begin with. However, you might want to open up your world a little if you hope to be able to compete with your wife's sexual nature. Whether or not she is a lesbian, it seems like she certainly has a kink. I am a straight, married woman and I love watching two women go at it. I explored lesbianism when I was younger. It just wasn't for me. I discovered that it wasn't that I was a lesbian, but that just does it for me. 

It really doesn't come down to you having to watch porn or anything like that. At the end of the day, do you want to have a fulfilling sex life with your wife? Or do you want this thing to eat at you because it seems like it isn't right? When it comes to sex, you and your wife should both feel comfortable acting out your fantasies together. If you try to hinder her or make her feel bad for things she wants to do, down the road she will either resent you and leave you, resent you and cheat, or resent you and stay in a sexless marriage with you. None of the above prospects look good.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Perfect, thanks. This is the Hitler defense. You can't criticize him for the Holocaust because then you're a hypocrite for "attacking" him.


Godwin proven correct again.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## tnjeoli (Jul 20, 2013)

nyce but share some pics for practical


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## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

broder62 said:


> I didn't courage her to leave her send behind. that is why we suck counseling.


Now you see sucking counseling _is_ a sin and you will definitely go to hell for it.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Godwin proven correct again.



Homosexuals were victims of Hitler's Holocaust. Thousands died in concentration camps. Just as with Jews, homosexuals were terrorized, hunted down, sentenced for homosexuality, sent to concentration camps, and murdered. 


There is a second law of Godwin, and that is whenever an ignoramus learns of it, he will invoke it in the wrong place: when the use of the holocaust is exactly appropriate. Look how your own link proves you don't know Godwin's law:



> The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany


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## MrsDraper (May 27, 2013)

why aren't you married by the state? is she too young? multiple wives?


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