# Does your spouse make you feel like God is real?



## jld

Mine does. When I consider his integrity, his character, his commitment to all that is good, it is not a leap to believe there is a force much greater than he is, who inspired all that he is.

I remember attending my parents' 50th wedding anniversary Mass 20 years ago and reflecting, during the Eucharistic prayers, on how much the description of Jesus sounded like Dug. It is the same all loving, all committed spirit.

I also remember a sermon once in which the minister told the husbands present that they are very likely the face of Jesus to their wives. What a responsibility.


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## stixx

No.


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## Ursula

Nope. I'm spiritual, and the told me he also was spiritual when we were dating and engaged, but changed after we got married. Now, he only believe in science because science can be proved. If I mention anything about spirituality, I need to have my thoughts backed up by scientific research for him to take it into account.


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## DayOne

stixx said:


> No.


Well, given your user name..... ;-) 

(yes I know it's a different spelling...> )


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## Personal

Nope, for exactly the same reasons she doesn't make me think the tooth fairy is real.


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## Married but Happy

No. Well, maybe Aphrodite, Venus, Rati, or Aizen Myō-ō. But the difference is that my wife is real - gods are all fictional.


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## stixx

I'm really liking all the nonbelievers posting on this thread.


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## DayOne

stixx said:


> I'm really liking all the nonbelievers posting on this thread.


While not a 'believer' myself, I do respect those that are. (for the most part)

However, projecting your chosen deity into the personification of your partner is a step too far.


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## Hope1964

DayOne said:


> projecting your chosen deity into the personification of your partner is a step too far.


:iagree: :iagree: Couldn't have said it better myself. Sounds almost like brainwashing or something. It's weird.


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## Emerging Buddhist

jld said:


> Mine does. When I consider his integrity, his character, his commitment to all that is good, it is not a leap to believe there is a force much greater than he is, who inspired all that he is.
> 
> I remember attending my parents' 50th wedding anniversary Mass 20 years ago and reflecting, during the Eucharistic prayers, on how much the description of Jesus sounded like Dug. It is the same all loving, all committed spirit.
> 
> I also remember a sermon once in which the minister told the husbands present that they are very likely the face of Jesus to their wives. What a responsibility.


That is quite a responsibility... 

Since my wife is atheist I would say not, although she has said if I gain back the weight I lost 5 years ago I will surely begin to resemble a Buddha.


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## GTdad

DayOne said:


> However, projecting your chosen deity into the personification of your partner is a step too far.


Says you. For your information, I happen to have quite the grey beard.


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## GuyInColorado

I bet he looks at porn and wacks off to other women. How's that change your perception?


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## MrsAldi

No but my cat does. 
Something very holy about the way the human world seems completely ridiculous to him, he knows what the real meaning of life is and which necessities are most important. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Hope1964

jld said:


> I also remember a sermon once in which the minister told the husbands present that they are very likely the face of Jesus to their wives. What a responsibility.


This remind me of something a counselor once talked about in our MC. If you put your spouse way up on a pedestal, that's dysfunctional. It's VERY selfish, in fact. No one likes having to try to live up to that kind of responsibility, and it isn't fair or desirable to have such a power inequality in a marriage or to expect your spouse to live up to such an image.


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## jb02157

Not even close, in fact I can't imagine a wife that can be much worse (I've read about some here that are close!). About the only thing she hasn't done is cheat on me but at this point I'm not sure it would make difference if she did. In Proverbs 31, it gives a list of the things that a godly wife should do. I'm almost in tears each time I read it now when I realize how far off the mark she is. But hey I'm the one who married her and if I'm still with her, it's all on me.


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## jld

Emerging Buddhist said:


> That is quite a responsibility...


It is, but I think some men are up to it.

I was looking for that sermon yesterday. I cannot remember if I read it or saw it on YouTube. I would like to review it.


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## jld

Hope1964 said:


> This remind me of something a counselor once talked about in our MC. If you put your spouse way up on a pedestal, that's dysfunctional. It's VERY selfish, in fact. *No one likes having to try to live up to that kind of responsibility*, and it isn't fair or desirable to have such a power inequality in a marriage or to expect your spouse to live up to such an image.


Some people are just very inspiring. For them, I don't think think there is much "trying" involved. It is just who they are and what they do, naturally.


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## jld

jb02157 said:


> Not even close, in fact I can't imagine a wife that can be much worse (I've read about some here that are close!). About the only thing she hasn't done is cheat on me but at this point I'm not sure it would make difference if she did. In Proverbs 31, it gives a list of the things that a godly wife should do. I'm almost in tears each time I read it now when I realize how far off the mark she is. But hey I'm the one who married her and if I'm still with her, it's all on me.


I hear your disappointment, jb. Have you ever shared that passage with her, and your feelings about it?

That sermon I mentioned did not address the idea of wives inspiring their husbands, iirc. But if that is an expectation you have in your heart, it might be helpful to transparently share it with her.


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## arbitrator

*Yes, I believe that they are supposed to emulate both the love as well as the will of God in ones life!

Just as you see God in the actions of people from your everyday life, and in children as well as octogenarians, more especially, you should vividly see God in your spouse's heartfelt, loving actions toward you, whether it is in their daily interaction with you, sex and acceptance of their spouse; and the exhibition of those very same altruistic, loving attributes toward their family members as well as toward others!*


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## jb02157

jld said:


> I hear your disappointment, jb. Have you ever shared that passage with her, and your feelings about it?
> 
> That sermon I mentioned did not address the idea of wives inspiring their husbands, iirc. But if that is an expectation you have in your heart, it might be helpful to transparently share it with her.


It's not really an expectation, I realize that noone, especially me, can live up to all expectations or measuring sticks in the Bible. I hear many wives say that they really do want to be a "Proverbs 31 wife" and that fact that mine doesn't and really has no interest to bothers me. She knows it's there, I don't have to point it out to her, I just figure as a wife who professes to be a Christian she should want to follow it, at least to some degree.


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## jld

jb02157 said:


> It's not really an expectation, I realize that noone, especially me, can live up to all expectations or measuring sticks in the Bible. I hear many wives say that they really do want to be a "Proverbs 31 wife" and that fact that mine doesn't and really has no interest to bothers me. She knows it's there, I don't have to point it out to her, I just figure as a wife who professes to be a Christian she should want to follow it, at least to some degree.


That is Old Testament, right? She may not see it as applicable. Or she may just not feel inspired by it. 

I agree that it is risky to have expectations for our spouses. It is easy to get disappointed that way.

But if an expectation is in your heart, and going unfulfilled, causing resentment in you, talking about it might offer both of you a chance to resolve it.


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## Fozzy

My wife does go kind of "Old Testament" on me sometimes.


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## SimplyAmorous

Having met you both... I understand where this is coming from.. you deeply ADMIRE and look up to certain traits in a man, in a Leader..."Responsibility" is always there.. at the top... a man radiates with this to you....one who rides out every storm (can I say, even some of yours) while holding as a strong tower.. seems nothing could sway his devotion to you, to his children...his love of being a Father inspires you.... So little seems to bother him, there is no pressure, just "embracing" - acceptance... This is what I get from your post.... 

It's almost like no matter what...there is love in return, forgiveness...yet he's certainly not a push over either... sure sometimes he still gets under your skin... and you've certainly voiced those times here on TAM... it's not all roses.. nor are you trying to say this either... just that you too, have moments of inspiration... 



> I remember attending my parents' 50th wedding anniversary Mass 20 years ago and reflecting, during the Eucharistic prayers, on how much the description of Jesus sounded like Dug. It is the same all loving, all committed spirit.


 that's a beautiful thing... that these thoughts came to you and you related them... 



> I also remember a sermon once in which the minister told the husbands present that they are very likely the face of Jesus to their wives. What a responsibility.


 I haven't heard it spoken like that.. but there is this....











Though I've never compared Jesus to my husband per say... I've always said he has far more of those gifts of the spirit going on over me ... he's always lived them before me.. there is no person in my life.. from childhood to now that I have trusted more, or felt as loved by, over my husband... if he gives me his word...I can count on it...sure he gets on my nerves sometimes, just like yours does -though for very different reasons .... We could spit out some complaints, depending on the moment , huh @jld ! But then.. find ourselves laughing about them too...

In it's own way.. we may feel guilty even complaining...isn't that just being appreciative and fully recognizing what we have...isn't your sharing your feelings here.. just doing this..
I know you are not a religious woman.. yet still you deeply admire certain traits Jesus exemplified/ lived .. even those outside of the church ...these things are "inspiring" in others... even our spouses ...


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## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Having met you both... I understand where this is coming from.. you deeply ADMIRE and look up to certain traits in a man, in a Leader..."Responsibility" is always there.. at the top... a man radiates with this to you....one who rides out every storm (can I say, even some of yours) while holding as a strong tower.. seems nothing could sway his devotion to you, to his children...his love of being a Father inspires you.... So little seems to bother him, there is no pressure, just "embracing" - acceptance... This is what I get from your post....


Yes, that is exactly correct. I admire mature, responsible men greatly. I respect them so much. 

I wish there were more of them, so more women could have good husbands, and not carry their marriages alone. That looks like a very heavy load.



> It's almost like no matter what...there is love in return, forgiveness...yet he's certainly not a push over either... sure sometimes he still gets under your skin... and you've certainly voiced those times here on TAM... it's not all roses.. nor are you trying to say this either... just that you too, have moments of inspiration...


Yes. Dug told me once, _"Whatever you do, J, it is already forgiven."_ 

That speaks incredible strength, incredible love to me. How could it not remind me of divine love, divine forgiveness?



> that's a beautiful thing... that these thoughts came to you and you related them...


I could not help it. Those prayers inspire me, and my husband's example inspires me. 

I just cannot resist the inspiration of goodness! I am putty in its hands. 



> I haven't heard it spoken like that.. but there is this....


Beautiful quote, and beautiful image, SA. Thank you so much for sharing that. 

Strong, good men are irresistible, imo. They use their strength to protect women and children, simply because it is the right thing to do. They see it as their responsibility.

How could any woman resist that kind of true masculinity?




> Though I've never compared Jesus to my husband per say... I've always said he has far more of those gifts of the spirit going on over me ... he's always lived them before me.. there is no person in my life.. from childhood to now that I have trusted more, or felt as loved by, over my husband... if he gives me his word...I can count on it...sure he gets on my nerves sometimes, just like yours does -though for very different reasons .... We could spit out some complaints, depending on the moment , huh @jld ! But then.. find ourselves laughing about them too...


 Of course, our husbands are not perfect. No man is. 

But some men are good, very, very good. They inspire us by their spirit, by their example. They redeem our faith in humanity.

I am so very, very grateful that men like this exist. They give me hope for the world. 



> In it's own way.. we may feel guilty even complaining...isn't that just being appreciative and fully recognizing what we have...isn't your sharing your feelings here.. just doing this..
> I know you are not a religious woman.. yet still you deeply admire certain traits Jesus exemplified/ lived .. even those outside of the church ...these things are "inspiring" in others... even our spouses ...


Yes, absolutely. I grew up Catholic and, to paraphrase the saying, while you can take the girl out of the Church, you cannot take the Church out of the girl. Inside of me will always be an Inner Catholic Schoolgirl. 

Beautiful, thoughtful post, SA. It is a pleasure to have you participate in this thread.


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## Diana7

jld said:


> Mine does. When I consider his integrity, his character, his commitment to all that is good, it is not a leap to believe there is a force much greater than he is, who inspired all that he is.
> 
> I remember attending my parents' 50th wedding anniversary Mass 20 years ago and reflecting, during the Eucharistic prayers, on how much the description of Jesus sounded like Dug. It is the same all loving, all committed spirit.
> 
> I also remember a sermon once in which the minister told the husbands present that they are very likely the face of Jesus to their wives. What a responsibility.


My husband is a really good man with such character, so much integrity, and the nicest man I have ever known, but no, he isn't like God. He is still a fallible human being as we all are. He is godly but not God. He has a very close relationship with God and I love that about Him. 

Don't try and put anyone on a par with the God who created the universe, the poor man will never live up to it. :surprise:

It could also be seen as idol worship if you elevate him higher than he should be. I also don't agree with that pastor who says that husbands are the face of Jesus to their wives. Jesus is the face of Jesus. No man is. 

Like you though, I love it that there are still good men around who treat others with love and respect and decency, and who have good moral values and honesty. I also know that God does change us and work in us and make us into better people, and its nice to see that in our spouses.


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## john117

My spouse makes me feel more like Hell is real. Which is pretty
Impressive given she's not a Christian 😀😇


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## jld

Diana7 said:


> My husband is a really good man with such character, so much integrity, and the nicest man I have ever known, but no, he isn't like God. He is still a fallible human being as we all are. He is godly but not God. He has a very close relationship with God and I love that about Him.
> 
> Don't try and put anyone on a par with the God who created the universe, the poor man will never live up to it. :surprise:
> 
> It could also be seen as idol worship if you elevate him higher than he should be. I also don't agree with that pastor who says that husbands are the face of Jesus to their wives. Jesus is the face of Jesus. No man is.
> 
> Like you though, I love it that there are still good men around who treat others with love and respect and decency, and who have good moral values and honesty. I also know that God does change us and work in us and make us into better people, and its nice to see that in our spouses.


I never _expected_ Dug to be like Jesus. He just is. 

I wish I could find that sermon. The minister was talking about how husbands set an image for their wives of what Jesus is like. That is why it is so important for husbands to strive for goodness in themselves, to imitate his example, and be what their wives need. It truly is a responsibility.

It was such a good talk, what I remember from it, anyway. There was such honesty, such genuineness, to it. No defensiveness. Just heartfelt sharing from one genuine man to other men humble enough to listen.


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## ConanHub

Mrs. Conan was a Christian before she met me (abandoned her beliefs for a while and lost her mind in my bed) and ended up exemplifying a Christian wife who influenced her husband with actions and grace, not words.

She very gently invited me to attend church with her and I eventually accepted.

I became a Christian roughly 5 years into our relationship.

She is a good representation of a Godly wife in most aspects even though she has failed a few times, she is only human, she always gets back on track.

She is my helpmate and I am her lead.


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## jld

ConanHub said:


> Mrs. Conan was a Christian before she met me (abandoned her beliefs for a while and lost her mind in my bed) and ended up exemplifying a Christian wife who influenced her husband with actions and grace, not words.
> 
> *She very gently invited me to attend church with her and I eventually accepted.
> 
> I became a Christian roughly 5 years into our relationship.*
> 
> She is a good representation of a Godly wife in most aspects even though she has failed a few times, she is only human, she always gets back on track.
> 
> She is my helpmate and I am her lead.


It sounds like she was leading *you*, CH. 

But all's well that ends well.


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## ConanHub

jld said:


> It sounds like she was leading *you*, CH.
> 
> But all's well that ends well.


All men lead. Some just suck.

I became a good leader and wasn't too bad to start with.

She did invite /lead me towards Christ in a very feminine fashion.


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## jld

ConanHub said:


> All men lead. Some just suck.
> 
> I became a good leader and wasn't too bad to start with.
> 
> She did invite /lead me towards Christ in a very feminine fashion.


You have a good heart, Conan. The fact that you feel bad for breaking so many women's hearts tells me that.


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## Vinnydee

More like I took a very religious girl and showed her why I am an Atheist, and she came over to the dark side once she understood that she just believed because she was taught to and a lot of things she believed, when studied, did not make sense when forced to exam her beliefs rather than just blindly believe them. >

Yet we are good people, better than a lot of religious people we know. We just conduct ourselves in a way that does no harm to others. All of our friends are deeply religious and we sometimes have good natured discussions to try to understand each other. What we all have in common is that we are all easy going, pet loving people who help others and do no harm to anyone. In the end, this is what matters. Does anyone really want to worship a God who rejects good people because they did not knell down before him? That is a not a good and loving God. That is the same old God from ancient times. Every period in history believed and killed for their God but as time passed, so did the God's they worshipped, and so it will be with today's Gods.


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## Diana7

jld said:


> I never _expected_ Dug to be like Jesus. He just is.
> 
> I wish I could find that sermon. The minister was talking about how husbands set an image for their wives of what Jesus is like. That is why it is so important for husbands to strive for goodness in themselves, to imitate his example, and be what their wives need. It truly is a responsibility.
> 
> It was such a good talk, what I remember from it, anyway. There was such honesty, such genuineness, to it. No defensiveness. Just heartfelt sharing from one genuine man to other men humble enough to listen.


There are many godly men, my husband is one, but we ALL have weaknesses and failings, including your husband. 
Dont put him on a pedestal. Its not wise.


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## MrsHolland

I am surrounded by amazing men full of integrity and solid morals. Non of them are religious which is a must for me to be able to take them seriously as men. I feel that people that have to be told by a third party how to behave are not trustworthy or truly great people. 

So no MrH does not make me believe god is real, he could never do that as I would never believe in god and neither does he,


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## Spicy

I understand your choice of wording, and yes my DH does make me feel like God is real.
Nothing could persuade me to think otherwise, anyway.. In our marriage we daily ask through prayer for the strength to be good marriage mates to each other. I believe he answers our prayers. 

We have really thrown some very heavy things to God to have him direct us on the right path. Many times we have seen answers come in ways that could only be credited as being Gods answer/direction in our behalf. 

I have also seen God work on my husband a lot with his own qualities and issues, and the only change he made was reestablishing his relationship with God. I am always impressed at how far he has cone. I hope he feels the same about me.:grin2:


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## jld

Diana7 said:


> There are many godly men, my husband is one, but we ALL have weaknesses and failings, including your husband.
> Dont put him on a pedestal. Its not wise.


We all have our faults, including my husband. 

And whatever position he holds in my eyes, at any time, he has earned.


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## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> I am surrounded by amazing men full of integrity and solid morals. Non of them are religious which is a must for me to be able to take them seriously as men. I feel that people that have to be told by a third party how to behave are not trustworthy or truly great people.
> 
> So no MrH does not make me believe god is real, he could never do that as I would never believe in god and neither does he,


We don't act the way we do because we are told to, but because we know its the right thing to do. We also know that there is always room for improvement and we want to be better people. Yes there are many truly great and completely trustworthy people who are Christians. I have so many who I would trust completely. 

I know very few men who aren't Christians who have good moral values, complete honesty and integrity. I can only think of one right now and that is is my brother. 

It takes a very strong man to go against the flow of the worlds standards. A man who is completely honest. Who doesn't look at porn. Who doesn't have sex outside marriage. Who doesn't cheat on his tax returns. Who puts himself out for others. Who always treats others with fairness and decency etc etc. 
There are very few men like that.


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## Evinrude58

My experience is:

Truly rich people rately show off their money. They don't need to.

Wives/husbands who are constantly facebooking about their perfect family, amazing vacations, and bragging about how awesome their spouses and lives are---/ 99% of the time have the worst relationships of anyone. All fake.

JLD, you are constantly bragging about Dug.
Great JLD. We are happy for you. He makes you think of Jesus.
He's a great guy.

Where's this huge need to tell anyone who will listen, coming from??????????!!!!

Are you trying to convince yourself of something? I just don't get it.


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## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> My experience is:
> 
> Truly rich people rately show off their money. They don't need to.
> 
> Wives/husbands who are constantly facebooking about their perfect family, amazing vacations, and bragging about how awesome their spouses and lives are---/ 99% of the time have the worst relationships of anyone. All fake.
> 
> JLD, you are constantly bragging about Dug.
> Great JLD. We are happy for you. He makes you think of Jesus.
> He's a great guy.
> 
> Where's this huge need to tell anyone who will listen, coming from??????????!!!!
> 
> Are you trying to convince yourself of something? I just don't get it.


That is interesting, that you think I am bragging about him. To me, I am just expressing my honest feelings about him.


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> We don't act the way we do because we are told to, but because we know its the right thing to do. We also know that there is always room for improvement and we want to be better people. Yes there are many truly great and completely trustworthy people who are Christians. I have so many who I would trust completely.
> 
> I know very few men who aren't Christians who have good moral values, complete honesty and integrity. I can only think of one right now and that is is my brother.
> 
> It takes a very strong man to go against the flow of the worlds standards. A man who is completely honest. Who doesn't look at porn. Who doesn't have sex outside marriage. Who doesn't cheat on his tax returns. Who puts himself out for others. Who always treats others with fairness and decency etc etc.
> There are very few men like that.


I know many men that are amazing people of very high value, my ex and current husband, my dad, brothers, co workers (I work for a NFP, charity) extended family etc. Interestingly my best friends husband has just come out as a cheater, he is a so called religious man.

My dad is a silent philanthropist to the tune of a millions of dollars. He has never cheated on his tax (actually I don't know anyone that has) and he employs many people at well above award wages. 

All the men I am surrounded by treat others with fairness and decency (and yes also the few religious friends I have do too) being non religious and being a good person are not mutually exclusive.

Being religious does not in any way mean a person has higher values, is less likely to look at porn, cheat on tax returns and it is very naive to think otherwise. Just have a look at what is going on world wide with the church and child sex abuse. How about tax avoidance or misogyny? Religious men, like non religious men are involved in crime, abuse, cheating, porn watching and other vices. Repressed people are capable of the most heinous of actions, this is not only the realm of the non religious.


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## Evinrude58

Well, it's odd to me. But I am happy for you that you think about your husband all the time in a good way. I hope to have that myself one day. 

My ex was a fake person. Her church/religion stuff was all for show. She'd get up and sing during church and cry just to get attention. It was all a social event for her. I remember her wearing revealing clothes and telling me so-and-so was looking at her legs.

If your husband is showing you Godly behavior at home when there's nobody around to impress but you, that is a cool thing.

Like another poster said, you do have him on a pedestal. Healthy or not, I do think it's a great thing to be able to leave him there and never have to feel the pain of your mental image of him come crashing down off of it.

I have got to wonder how you can have such a great feeling for your husband, and have a poor feeling about men in general. Your dichotomy with male and female cheaters, I mean...

Either way, my input is pretty useless in this topic. Mine didn't inspire me very often. And what happened at the end and at present kind of turned/turns me off to religion.


So I've had the opposite happen. Does that count, lol


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## jld

Evinrude58 said:


> Well, it's odd to me. But I am happy for you that you think about your husband all the time in a good way. I hope to have that myself one day.
> 
> My ex was a fake person. Her church/religion stuff was all for show. She'd get up and sing during church and cry just to get attention. It was all a social event for her. I remember her wearing revealing clothes and telling me so-and-so was looking at her legs.
> 
> If your husband is showing you Godly behavior at home when there's nobody around to impress but you, that is a cool thing.
> 
> Like another poster said, you do have him on a pedestal. Healthy or not, I do think it's a great thing to be able to leave him there and never have to feel the pain of your mental image of him come crashing down off of it.
> 
> I have got to wonder how you can have such a great feeling for your husband, and have a poor feeling about men in general. Your dichotomy with male and female cheaters, I mean...
> 
> Either way, my input is pretty useless in this topic. Mine didn't inspire me very often. And what happened at the end and at present kind of turned/turns me off to religion.
> 
> 
> So I've had the opposite happen. Does that count, lol


I tend to feel sorry for both male and female cheaters. To me, if you are unhappy enough to cheat, you are probably not in the right marriage. And what a horrible thing to have on your conscience.

I think good men are few and far between, sadly. But the good ones deserve whatever honor they are accorded. They have earned it.

Hope you can find someone who will be a good match for you, Evinrude. A happy partnership really can make life more enjoyable.


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## notmyrealname4

I think, iirc, that Jesus is the groom and the church is the bride; according to Christian theology.

And husbands are supposed to sacrifice themselves for their wives as Jesus sacrificed himself for the church.

Lofty ideals. But I don't see God in the face of any human being. I do get a sense of him in creation overall. I do believe in intelligent design.

Yeah, my trust in human beings is completely insufficient for me to think that they resemble God.

I hope that your trust in Dug is never misplaced, jld. It's great to hear that you are so happy and in love with each other.


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## notmyrealname4

GuyInColorado said:


> I bet he looks at porn and wacks off to other women. How's that change your perception?




Horrid, rancid remark. Did it make you feel good? Why?


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## ConanHub

MrsHolland said:


> I know many men that are amazing people of very high value, my ex and current husband, my dad, brothers, co workers (I work for a NFP, charity) extended family etc. Interestingly my best friends husband has just come out as a cheater, he is a so called religious man.
> 
> My dad is a silent philanthropist to the tune of a millions of dollars. He has never cheated on his tax (actually I don't know anyone that has) and he employs many people at well above award wages.
> 
> All the men I am surrounded by treat others with fairness and decency (and yes also the few religious friends I have do too) being non religious and being a good person are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Being religious does not in any way mean a person has higher values, is less likely to look at porn, cheat on tax returns and it is very naive to think otherwise. Just have a look at what is going on world wide with the church and child sex abuse. How about tax avoidance or misogyny? Religious men, like non religious men are involved in crime, abuse, cheating, porn watching and other vices. Repressed people are capable of the most heinous of actions, this is not only the realm of the non religious.


I am a non religious Christian, if that makes sense, and I happen to agree with this post wholeheartedly!


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## ConanHub

notmyrealname4 said:


> Horrid, rancid remark. Did it make you feel good? Why?


Yeh...

Kind of bizarre???

Probably had a trigger.


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## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> I know many men that are amazing people of very high value, my ex and current husband, my dad, brothers, co workers (I work for a NFP, charity) extended family etc. Interestingly my best friends husband has just come out as a cheater, he is a so called religious man.
> 
> My dad is a silent philanthropist to the tune of a millions of dollars. He has never cheated on his tax (actually I don't know anyone that has) and he employs many people at well above award wages.
> 
> All the men I am surrounded by treat others with fairness and decency (and yes also the few religious friends I have do too) being non religious and being a good person are not mutually exclusive.
> 
> Being religious does not in any way mean a person has higher values, is less likely to look at porn, cheat on tax returns and it is very naive to think otherwise. Just have a look at what is going on world wide with the church and child sex abuse. How about tax avoidance or misogyny? Religious men, like non religious men are involved in crime, abuse, cheating, porn watching and other vices. Repressed people are capable of the most heinous of actions, this is not only the realm of the non religious.


We will have to agree to disagree on this. All I cant say is that in the 40 years I have mixed with believers and been a Christian, I have seen and known so many really moral, kind, honest, decent men. I have known very few outside the church. 
Yes Christians are far less likely to look at porn and have sex outside marriage. Hardly anyone outside the church doesn't, you can see this on this forum alone, most think its normal behaviour.


----------



## Diana7

ConanHub said:


> I am a non religious Christian, if that makes sense, and I happen to agree with this post wholeheartedly!


I agree, there is a massive difference between all 'religious' people, and those who follow Jesus Christ. I am not in the least religious, but I am a Christian, and I know countless lovely Christians who don't act that way.


----------



## Diana7

jld said:


> I tend to feel sorry for both male and female cheaters. To me, if you are unhappy enough to cheat, you are probably not in the right marriage. And what a horrible thing to have on your conscience.
> 
> I think good men are few and far between, sadly. But the good ones deserve whatever honor they are accorded. They have earned it.
> 
> Hope you can find someone who will be a good match for you, Evinrude. A happy partnership really can make life more enjoyable.


I know so many marriages where one cheated, and it isn't always because they are unhappy, but because they took an opportunity and had no boundaries or moral values. Some even admitted that it wasn't due to anything wrong in the marriage. I dont feel at ALL sorry for the cheater, I feel sorry for the cheated on and the innocent children whose lives they have devastated.:surprise: 

I too feel blessed to have a really good husband of 11 years, he is the most moral man I have even known and I trust him completely, but Jesus is perfect. He is our Lord and Saviour. There is no one like Him and never will be. :smile2:


----------



## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on this. All I cant say is that in the 40 years I have mixed with believers and been a Christian, I have seen and known so many really moral, kind, honest, decent men. I have known very few outside the church.
> Yes Christians are far less likely to look at porn and have sex outside marriage. Hardly anyone outside the church doesn't, you can see this on this forum alone, most think its normal behaviour.


Where is your proof that religious men are more decent men than non religious? It is so naive to believe that blindly following a religion makes one person better than another. Honestly the world would be a far better, less conflicted place without religion.

But yes we will have to agree to disagree, one of us one of us is brainwashed, the other a critical thinker, the discussion is futile.


----------



## john117

Religious people may be more predictable...


----------



## musicftw07

Personal said:


> Nope, for exactly the same reasons she doesn't make me think the tooth fairy is real.


Can't sum it up any better than this.


----------



## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> Where is your proof that religious men are more decent men than non religious? It is so naive to believe that blindly following a religion makes one person better than another. Honestly the world would be a far better, less conflicted place without religion.
> 
> But yes we will have to agree to disagree, one of us one of us is brainwashed, the other a critical thinker, the discussion is futile.


I am going by all the people I have known in the 60 years of my life and the 40 years of being a Christian.I go by what I see in the world around me, the falling moral values, the dishonesty, the selfishness.I see what people do, what they say and how they act. I see the people in my church and other churches and how different they are from that. Their high moral values, their honesty, their integrity, their compassion. 

I have lived life with him and without Him, and believe me, we are not in the least brainwashed. I have never believed anything just because I was told to, only because its true. 
My husband is a very intelligent man, a very logical thinker, a critical thinker,a scientist and medical researcher and a very strong Christian. God loves us to use our minds and thoughts. To learn and understand the universe around us. He often talks to God about His work.


----------



## Diana7

When my first marriage(to a non Christian) ended after 23 years, I made a decision that I would not even consider a man unless he had a strong faith in God. I know that this cut down my chances of meeting anyone by about 90-95%, as there are so few Christians in the UK, and also more Christian women than men, but I knew that was the right thing to do.

After 6 years of being single we met, married 9 months later, and I am so glad I waited for the right guy.


----------



## 269370

jld said:


> Mine does. When I consider his integrity, his character, his commitment to all that is good, it is not a leap to believe there is a force much greater than he is, who inspired all that he is.
> 
> I remember attending my parents' 50th wedding anniversary Mass 20 years ago and reflecting, during the Eucharistic prayers, on how much the description of Jesus sounded like Dug. It is the same all loving, all committed spirit.


Does he not get jealous of Jesus?


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> My husband is a really good man with such character, so much integrity, and the nicest man I have ever known, but no, he isn't like God. He is still a fallible human being as we all are. He is godly but not God. He has a very close relationship with God and I love that about Him.
> 
> Don't try and put anyone on a par with the God who created the universe, the poor man will never live up to it. :surprise:


You never know. If i could have a go at making a universe from scratch, i could definitely think of a couple of "upgrades". For a start, I wouldn't have put a mysterious tree with a talking snake in the middle of the garden and give very vague instructions about not eating the fruits (and conveniently avoiding the actual issue). It's as if he deliberately wanted to have the garden all to himself. If it was me, I'd make sure we would still all be living in paradise.:nerd:


----------



## 269370

jld said:


> I never _expected_ Dug to be like Jesus. He just is.
> 
> I wish I could find that sermon. The minister was talking about how husbands set an image for their wives of what Jesus is like. That is why it is so important for husbands to strive for goodness in themselves, to imitate his example, and be what their wives need. It truly is a responsibility.
> 
> It was such a good talk, what I remember from it, anyway. There was such honesty, such genuineness, to it. No defensiveness. Just heartfelt sharing from one genuine man to other men humble enough to listen.


Sounds more like it is Jesus, who should be jealous of Dug. Can I sign up for a new religion to worship Dug? I believe he is real.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I am a non religious Christian, if that makes sense,


Cool! What's this? How do you separate the two? What do you believe/not believe in? Or are you just supporting your wife etc?


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## 269370

Vinnydee said:


> More like I took a very religious girl and showed her why I am an Atheist, and she came over to the dark side once she understood that she just believed because she was taught to and a lot of things she believed, when studied, did not make sense when forced to exam her beliefs rather than just blindly believe them. >
> 
> Yet we are good people, better than a lot of religious people we know. We just conduct ourselves in a way that does no harm to others. All of our friends are deeply religious and we sometimes have good natured discussions to try to understand each other. What we all have in common is that we are all easy going, pet loving people who help others and do no harm to anyone.


It's always fun converting a religious with sex. You are the snake and she bit your apple  You know what will happen to both of you I presume...


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I am going by all the people I have known in the 60 years of my life and the 40 years of being a Christian.I go by what I see in the world around me, the falling moral values, the dishonesty, the selfishness.I see what people do, what they say and how they act. I see the people in my church and other churches and how different they are from that. Their high moral values, their honesty, their integrity, their compassion.


That's because you might not be mixing much with people outside of your church. If you meet me & my wife, you might change your mind  There's plenty of rotten stuff going on in churches, sorry to burst the bubble...People are people. I agree we should strive to higher values but that won't be achieved by segregating non-believers as the "lesser" people...If I gave you a horse and and sword and you made the statement from your previous post I would worry we are back to the crusades...



Diana7 said:


> I have lived life with him and without Him, and believe me, we are not in the least brainwashed. I have never believed anything just because I was told to, only because its true.


That's....a contradiction. You were told god is true. You can't _know_ that god is there. He doesn't seem to like to socialise it seems and nobody has ever seen him, as far as I know...


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Cool! What's this? How do you separate the two? What do you believe/not believe in? Or are you just supporting your wife etc?


I fully believe in Jesus Christ as my God.

I am technically ordained and have officiated more than a couple weddings.

I'm not impressed with western churches and practices so I stopped participating with organized religion in this country.

I still support ministries over seas and visit churches and individuals for fellowship.

I occasionally swear, drink and watch R-rated movies and a lot of my western "brethren" have issues with that.

I also hang out with folks that would be made to feel out of place in a regular church setting.

I'm a huge advocate for extensive sex talk and education which puts me at odds with almost every church in this country.

Lots of other issues which probably wouldn't make sense unless you understood the old and new covenants.


----------



## Cynthia

This is such a weird, illogical question.

I see God as a person who I have a relationship with. It would be like asking if my best friend makes me believe in my mother. It makes no sense. My relationship with God makes me believe God is real. It's about God, not anyone else.

By the logic employed in asking this question, if your husband's behavior makes you believe that God is real, then those who have awful spouses should believe that God is a made up thing.

God stands alone to answer his existence. If we look to people to decide if God is real, surely we will mostly decide that he is not, because people are not perfect or good. If we place our hope of God in humanity, we are lost indeed.


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## 269370

"Are you sexualising Jesus?"

http://thekathrynjoy.com/are-you-sexualizing-jesus/

This is the funniest board on all of TAM.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

Once I went to an institution where they had an inordinate amount of Jesus figures in various nude/semi-nude positions. I felt something was really off. All the depictions of Jesus just felt....sexual and erotic. He was half tortured, with his abs showing in rather provocative positions...

I was then greeted by a handful of priests, who appeared to be positively homosexual to me (even my gaydar could spot this). It was the most bizarre religious experience ever.
This topic reminded me of it 
Do some women find Jesus...attractive? I'm curious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld

inmyprime said:


> Once I went to an institution where they had an inordinate amount of Jesus figures in various nude/semi-nude positions. I felt something was really off. All the depictions of Jesus just felt....sexual and erotic. He was half tortured, with his abs showing in rather provocative positions...
> 
> I was then greeted by a handful of priests, who appeared to be positively homosexual to me (even my gaydar could spot this). It was the most bizarre religious experience ever.
> This topic reminded me of it
> Do some women find Jesus...attractive? I'm curious.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never thought of it that way. I am just drawn to the inspiration of goodness, compassion, truthfulness, etc.


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## 269370

....


----------



## Dr. Stupid

MrsHolland said:


> Where is your proof that religious men are more decent men than non religious? It is so naive to believe that blindly following a religion makes one person better than another. Honestly the world would be a far better, less conflicted place without religion.
> 
> But yes we will have to agree to disagree, one of us one of us is brainwashed, the other a critical thinker, the discussion is futile.


Brainwashed? I am an agnostic, so I really have no axe to grind, but since you're a "critical thinker", I suppose that you have finally found a way to prove a negative? 

The best that any honest, logical, person can do is say that they simply don't know if a God or gods exist. That being as it may, calling someone who has faith "brainwashed" (as a form of mockery, no doubt) seems to prove that you're not as critical as you think you are. Some hold logic in high esteem, but yet, logic cannot explain how they can subscribe to the idea that what they cannot detect with their mere human senses must not exist, that a supreme being who reveals him/her/itself when, where, and to whom it chooses cannot exist if it doesn't reveal itself directly to them. If that were the case, then how many things didn't "exist" even a decade or so ago, only to be "discovered"? 

Even so, I believe that atheists have the right to believe what they believe, and will not mock them for believing such things, as I cannot prove them wrong. Neither can they prove the religious wrong. It seems to me foolhardy to call others "brainwashed" especially when one's rule and guide is logic, when the other's guide is freely admitted to as being based on faith.

Even I, with years and years of education, have not yet come to grips with the scientific explanation as to how the universe was formed, which seems to be ever-changing, because after all, they're only theories. "In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded" (or there was something, but it was _infinitely small_, lol!) doesn't seem any more far-fetched than "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". 

When I was growing up, I found that many religious people were pushy, intolerant, and mocked the faithless. Now, it appears that the atheists have claimed the low moral ground. There's something grinding their gears, that's for sure.

Being an agnostic, I don't really know if I have enough faith to believe in a God or gods, but I guess that I don't have enough faith to be an atheist either.

To all of the _kind _people here, religious and non-religious, this has been an uplifting discussion!


----------



## Andy1001

Diana7 said:


> We don't act the way we do because we are told to, but because we know its the right thing to do. We also know that there is always room for improvement and we want to be better people. Yes there are many truly great and completely trustworthy people who are Christians. I have so many who I would trust completely.
> 
> I know very few men who aren't Christians who have good moral values, complete honesty and integrity. I can only think of one right now and that is is my brother.
> 
> It takes a very strong man to go against the flow of the worlds standards. A man who is completely honest. Who doesn't look at porn. Who doesn't have sex outside marriage. Who doesn't cheat on his tax returns. Who puts himself out for others. Who always treats others with fairness and decency etc etc.
> There are very few men like that.


Other than having sex outside marriage I agree with everything you have said.Why is marriage such a be all and end all in your opinion.I am not married but I am honest,faithful,I don't look at porn,I don't cheat on my taxes,I donate to charity and to the church and I treat everybody with respect and dignity.But in your opinion because I am not married to my partner there is something unchristianlike about me?


----------



## Hope1964

Andy1001 said:


> Other than having sex outside marriage I agree with everything you have said.Why is marriage such a be all and end all in your opinion.I am not married but I am honest,faithful,I don't look at porn,I don't cheat on my taxes,I donate to charity and to the church and I treat everybody with respect and dignity.But in your opinion because I am not married to my partner there is something unchristian about me?


I think marriage is HIGHLY over rated. Many Christians don't believe people are truly married if it wasn't done by a priest or minister either. It has to be done 'in the church'.


----------



## 269370

Dr. Stupid said:


> Brainwashed? I am an agnostic, so I really have no axe to grind, but since you're a "critical thinker", I suppose that you have finally found a way to prove a negative?
> 
> The best that any honest, logical, person can do is say that they simply don't know if a God or gods exist. That being as it may, calling someone who has faith "brainwashed" (as a form of mockery, no doubt) seems to prove that you're not as critical as you think you are. Some hold logic in high esteem, but yet, logic cannot explain how they can subscribe to the idea that what they cannot detect with their mere human senses must not exist, that a supreme being who reveals him/her/itself when, where, and to whom it chooses cannot exist if it doesn't reveal itself directly to them. If that were the case, then how many things didn't "exist" even a decade or so ago, only to be "discovered"?
> 
> Even so, I believe that atheists have the right to believe what they believe, and will not mock them for believing such things, as I cannot prove them wrong. Neither can they prove the religious wrong. It seems to me foolhardy to call others "brainwashed" especially when one's rule and guide is logic, when the other's guide is freely admitted to as being based on faith.
> 
> Even I, with years and years of education, have not yet come to grips with the scientific explanation as to how the universe was formed, which seems to be ever-changing, because after all, they're only theories. "In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded" (or there was something, but it was _infinitely small_, lol!) doesn't seem any more far-fetched than "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth".
> 
> When I was growing up, I found that many religious people were pushy, intolerant, and mocked the faithless. Now, it appears that the atheists have claimed the low moral ground. There's something grinding their gears, that's for sure.
> 
> Being an agnostic, I don't really know if I have enough faith to believe in a God or gods, but I guess that I don't have enough faith to be an atheist either.
> 
> To all of the _kind _people here, religious and non-religious, this has been an uplifting discussion!


But we are all "brainwashed", to one extent or another. We believe many things because we either were brought up that way or pre-conditioned to believe them through some other means. 
The way it usually works is: we observe something with our human senses and then conclude if something is real. If somebody convinced me about something I haven't seen myself, you could say that I was "brainwashed".
It's usually up to the person who states that something or someone exists to prove that it does, in fact, exist. I don't have to prove anything since I am not claiming anything.

"When I was growing up, I found that many religious people were pushy, intolerant, and mocked the faithless."

I think they were a bit more than that: https://www.quora.com/Which-religio...of-deaths-of-infidels-over-its-entire-history


----------



## Bibi1031

CynthiaDe said:


> This is such a weird, illogical question.


Amen to that!

need not say more as this is enough!


----------



## Dr. Stupid

inmyprime said:


> around.
> 
> "When I was growing up, I found that many religious people were pushy, intolerant, and mocked the faithless."
> 
> I think they were a bit more than that: https://www.quora.com/Which-religio...of-deaths-of-infidels-over-its-entire-history


You must have missed the "When I was growing up" part, even though you quoted it. :smile2: That is, unless you believe that I'm thousands of years old. 

Regardless, how many have atheists killed? Let's see... Just in the last 100 years? Nazis, The Soviets, The Red Chinese, etc.

It's a race to the bottom, I tell you! >


----------



## Fozzy

Hope1964 said:


> I think marriage is HIGHLY over rated. Many Christians don't believe people are truly married if it wasn't done by a priest or minister either. It has to be done 'in the church'.


I was married in a casino by a reverend of some stripe or another. Does that count?


----------



## Andy1001

ConanHub said:


> I fully believe in Jesus Christ as my God.
> 
> I am technically ordained and have officiated more than a couple weddings.
> 
> I'm not impressed with western churches and practices so I stopped participating with organized religion in this country.
> 
> I still support ministries over seas and visit churches and individuals for fellowship.
> 
> I occasionally swear, drink and watch R-rated movies and a lot of my western "brethren" have issues with that.
> 
> I also hang out with folks that would be made to feel out of place in a regular church setting.
> 
> I'm a huge advocate for extensive sex talk and education which puts me at odds with almost every church in this country.
> 
> Lots of other issues which probably wouldn't make sense unless you understood the old and new covenants.


I am not religious despite being born a catholic,it is the hypocrisy that I can't stomach.I will tell you one thing that is one hundred percent true and anyone that doubts it is naive in the extreme.All major religions are big business and in business money is god.They all worship at the same altar and depending on where you are it is made from dollars,pounds or euros.There is always a loophole,think about indulgences.Do whatever you want all your life but attend mass in a Catholic Church on the first Friday of the month for ten months and you will see heaven,not a bad deal.The older popes sold indulgences the same as St Christopher's medals.


----------



## Andy1001

Fozzy said:


> I was married in a casino by a reverend of some stripe or another. Does that count?


Was he dressed as Elvis.


----------



## 269370

Dr. Stupid said:


> You must have missed the "When I was growing up" part, even though you quoted it. :smile2: That is, unless you believe that I'm thousands of years old.


You could be. Some of the bible super heroes had pretty long lives I heard! (Or they weren't good at counting).



Dr. Stupid said:


> Regardless, how many have atheists killed? Let's see... Just in the last 100 years? Nazis, The Soviets, The Red Chinese, etc.
> 
> It's a race to the bottom, I tell you! >


Not in the name of religion....please not *that* old chestnut 
Hitler was Catholic. The rest were ideologies, just like organised religions.
Atheism...it's a non-thing; a label given by the believers to label something they don't understand: the _absence_ of a belief. It's NOT a belief in something that does not exist. It's lack of belief. Who can spot the nuance? :nerd:


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> You never know. If i could have a go at making a universe from scratch, i could definitely think of a couple of "upgrades". For a start, I wouldn't have put a mysterious tree with a talking snake in the middle of the garden and give very vague instructions about not eating the fruits (and conveniently avoiding the actual issue). It's as if he deliberately wanted to have the garden all to himself. If it was me, I'd make sure we would still all be living in paradise.:nerd:


We all still have that opportunity if we take it. :smile2:


----------



## Fozzy

Andy1001 said:


> Was he dressed as Elvis.


Nope, he had a robe on. Like the church kind, not the kind you get poolside.


----------



## jld

Andy1001 said:


> I am not religious despite being born a catholic,it is the hypocrisy that I can't stomach.I will tell you one thing that is one hundred percent true and anyone that doubts it is naive in the extreme.*All major religions are big business* and in business money is god.They all worship at the same altar and depending on where you are it is made from dollars,pounds or euros.There is always a loophole,think about indulgences.Do whatever you want all your life but attend mass in a Catholic Church on the first Friday of the month for ten months and you will see heaven,not a bad deal.The older popes sold indulgences the same as St Christopher's medals.


True.


----------



## Andy1001

jld said:


> True.


I told you before about bribing the nun in Scotland I think.


----------



## jld

Andy1001 said:


> I told you before about bribing the nun in Scotland I think.


Yes.


----------



## Bibi1031

Fozzy said:


> I was married in a casino by a reverend of some stripe or another. Does that count?


If your wife gets a badass lawyer you betcha it counts! It's gonna cost you everything even the underwear your are wearing.>

There goes Foz, I mean Adam. LOL


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> We all still have that opportunity if we take it. :smile2:


There are just so many gods to choose from to worship...:allhail:
The one with 72 virgins sounds most enticing so far. But it could be an advertisement trick as I can't really figure out how they have such a high turnover for the virgins, unless everyone is sharing in which case I am not going there. No point of having an STD for eternity.
These days it's really hard to sort through the weed from the puff...:crazy:


----------



## Fozzy

Bibi1031 said:


> If your wife gets a badass lawyer you betcha it counts! It's gonna cost you everything even the underwear your are wearing.>
> 
> There goes Foz, I mean Adam. LOL


The thing about getting married at Bellagio is that you're not walking out with much for your spouse to take anyway.


----------



## Dr. Stupid

inmyprime said:


> You could be. Some of the bible super heroes had pretty long lives I heard! (Or they weren't good at counting).
> 
> 
> 
> Not in the name of religion....please not *that* old chestnut
> Hitler was Catholic. The rest were ideologies, just like organised religions.
> Atheism...it's a non-thing; a label given by the believers to label something they don't understand: the _absence_ of a belief. It's NOT a belief in something that does not exist. It's lack of belief. Who can spot the nuance? :nerd:


What does it matter that if it's in the name of religion or not? The implication that is made by grouping the religious of today in with holy warriors and such from the brutal past is that they are stained by the sins of those in the past. It is used to criticize good and decent people's beliefs by smearing them with the crimes of others. Atheists wouldn't be bringing those things up all of the time if they weren't using it as an insult. Thus, what's good for the atheists is fair game for the religious. Hitler was Catholic, Stalin was Orthodox, and Mao was Buddhist, until they weren't anymore and directed the mass murder of innocents. So, if the religious are smeared with the past, so should atheists. After all, it's equally unfair, and I'm all for equality. 

As for atheism being the absence of a belief, some atheists sure do proselytize as much as a fire and brimstone minister. So, as far as I'm concerned they might as well be an Atheist Minister. As for atheists who simply let threads like this go, allowing the religious to discuss their faith and feelings with each other, what harm are they to anyone? Live and let live is a fine attitude. On the other hand, atheists who feel the desire to step into a religious thread to mock the religious might as well be holy warriors of atheism, as emotion-driven as the most zealous adherent of any religion. 

As one who deals with humans and their brains all day long, I've found that there is a "faith center" in most people's brains, and most atheists are no different. They simply fill theirs with something else, and sometimes, it's anti-religion.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> There are just so many gods to choose from to worship...:allhail:
> The one with 72 virgins sounds most enticing so far. But it could be an advertisement trick as I can't really figure out how they have such a high turnover for the virgins, unless everyone is sharing in which case I am not going there. No point of having an STD for eternity.
> These days it's really hard to sort through the weed from the puff...:crazy:


What if the seventy two virgins are men......


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> What if the seventy two virgins are men......


Then I might reconsider? >:scratchhead:


----------



## Dr. Stupid

Andy1001 said:


> What if the seventy two virgins are men......





inmyprime said:


> Then I might reconsider? >:scratchhead:


I feel sorry for the virgins.


----------



## Dr. Stupid

inmyprime said:


> Then I might reconsider? >:scratchhead:


MIGHT?! Not that there's anything wrong with that.


----------



## Andy1001

Dr. Stupid said:


> I feel sorry for the virgins.


This threadjack is virgin on the ridiculous.😇😇😇


----------



## Bibi1031

Fozzy said:


> The thing about getting married at Bellagio is that you're not walking out with much for your spouse to take anyway.


Don't tell me you are the Adam parading around practically buck nakkid near the Bellagio?:surprise:

You prolly didn't have much then, but now you don't even have underwear on Foz! The desert get cold at night doesn't it?


----------



## 269370

Dr. Stupid said:


> What does it matter that if it's in the name of religion or not? The implication that is made by grouping the religious of today in with holy warriors and such from the brutal past is that they are stained by the sins of those in the past. It is used to criticize good and decent people's beliefs by smearing them with the crimes of others. Atheists wouldn't be bringing those things up all of the time if they weren't using it as an insult. Thus, what's good for the atheists is fair game for the religious. Hitler was Catholic, Stalin was Orthodox, and Mao was Buddhist, until they weren't anymore and directed the mass murder of innocents. So, if the religious are smeared with the past, so should atheists. After all, it's equally unfair, and I'm all for equality.


I would agree with you, under normal circumstances, but in this particular instance, you mentioned that the religious used to be patronising in the past and I brought up the fact that they were way more than that. I did not imply anything about the religious of today. Though now that you mention it...
I don't know how you can say that it doesn't matter what motivated the killings. Anyone who didn't agree with a particular ideology was nipped in the bud. Stalin didn't kill people because he wanted to spread "atheism" (that's non-sensical) he killed anyone who opposed him. As did most religions in the past. It's a historical fact. It's like saying that Mao mass-murdered because he was a vegetarian. I am not extrapolating anything about the current religious. Like I said, you actually brought up the comparison between *now* and *then*...But I agree with your sentiment: we should be tolerant of course of all kinds of crap, especially in the today world.




Dr. Stupid said:


> As for atheism being the absence of a belief, some atheists sure do proselytize as much as a fire and brimstone minister. So, as far as I'm concerned they might as well be an Atheist Minister. As for atheists who simply let threads like this go, allowing the religious to discuss their faith and feelings with each other, what harm are they to anyone? Live and let live is a fine attitude. On the other hand, atheists who feel the desire to step into a religious thread to mock the religious might as well be holy warriors of atheism, as emotion-driven as the most zealous adherent of any religion.


Come on, don't ruin it for me :crying: Light-hearted humour has never killed anyone. Nobody claims this 'thread' is "harmful". 

Schools providing mis-information to children, on the other hand, can be argued to equal child abuse:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201408/does-christianity-harm-children

_* Christianity teaches children that they are intrinsically evil; they did nothing wrong, but just by being born and being alive, they are evil. This is a terrible thing to teach children, not only because it is false, but because it is the exact wrong message children should be taught, which is that they are intrinsically wonderful, noble, and lovable, and that they have boundless goodness inside them.

* Christianity teaches children that there exists a powerful, evil Devil. A most dangerous demon. Beware! This horrible falsity infuses their childhood with needless fear and dread, and teaches them that the world is a dangerous place, with a malevolent demon lurking in the wait. In my own research, I’ve interviewed many adults who describe the whole Satan thing as a decidedly traumatic element of their children, and in some egregious cases, unambiguously abusive.

* Christianity teaches children that God killed his own child to make up for our wickedness. In other words, we are evil, and by killing his own child, our evil is somehow wiped away and forgiven. Our guilt is cleansed. But how does that work? If I abuse my wife, and then a cop comes over and kills my son, does that atone for the wickedness I committed against my wife? How so? Only I can atone for my own wrongdoings and harmful actions. If I abuse my wife, I need to make amends in order to earn her forgiveness. I can’t kill our cat instead. And besides, why couldn’t God forgive us without killing his son? Does he require a blood sacrifice, like some pagan ogre? The entire story of Jesus “dying for our sins” makes no moral or ethical sense, and it is an extremely confusing/disturbing tale to tell our children.

* Christianity teaches children that those who accept Jesus as their personal savior are good/saved/going to heaven and those that do not accept Jesus as their personal savior are sinful and destined for hell. This can cause children to feel smug, superior, self-righteous, judgmental, and to look down upon and condemn others – be they kids on the schoolyard, neighbors, or even relatives._

It's up to you of course to decide whether it's "harmful". I do personally think that the kind of peace that some believers talk about, seems like a very beneficial and valuable thing and I do not mock that. In fact, I am positively jealous that i can't seem to convince myself to believe to have some of that.

I think you still are mis-understanding what "atheism" is. You are confusing militant atheism or anti-theism with 'regular' atheism, if there is such a thing...



Dr. Stupid said:


> As one who deals with humans and their brains all day long, I've found that there is a "faith center" in most people's brains, and most atheists are no different. They simply fill theirs with something else, and sometimes, it's anti-religion.


How did you arrive at this "scientific" conclusion? (I would be genuinely interested to read more about it as it is a topic of interest for me). I do instinctively think you might be right though. I "fill up my brain" with all kinds of stuff & theories (holographic universe, multi-verses etc). those are all fascinating things to think about. But it's very different from being 100% *convinced* about something invisible constantly surveying you...


----------



## jld

My husband is Catholic and does not believe in hell. He says everyone goes to heaven.


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## Bibi1031

jld said:


> *He says everyone goes to heaven.*


Your husband is right. I am Catholic and believe almost the same thing with the exception that hell is in heaven though.


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> Your husband is right. I am Catholic and believe almost the same thing with the exception that hell is in heaven though.


Come again??? Is it possible to obtain some kind of definitive guidance on this??? It's like wading through the recent changes in the UK budget...it's all over the place! :circle:


----------



## Fozzy

Biblical references to hell are very confusing. Some make it seem to be the classic "Hell" that we think of, but most of those references appear to be New Testament and probably derive from Greek mythology. Revelations even specifically refers to it as "Hades". Some passages make it seem to be simply spiritual separation from God. Others make it seem to be true death (annihilation). 

Who knows.


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## 269370

jld said:


> My husband is Catholic and does not believe in hell. He says everyone goes to heaven.


How does that work with the whole retribution for breaking commandments and various moral codes? If there is no hell then (theoretically) all hell will break lose here on earth since it won't matter what everyone does or believes anymore. I am mightily confused.


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## 269370

Fozzy said:


> Who knows.


Dug >


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## 269370

Dr. Stupid said:


> I feel sorry for the virgins.


I can be a gentile lover :grin2:


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> How does that work with the whole retribution for breaking commandments and various moral codes? If there is no hell then (theoretically) all hell will break lose here on earth since it won't matter what everyone does or believes anymore. I am mightily confused.


I think you have to look at the spirit of the law, not the letter.

But some people cannot do that.


----------



## ConanHub

Andy1001 said:


> I am not religious despite being born a catholic,it is the hypocrisy that I can't stomach.I will tell you one thing that is one hundred percent true and anyone that doubts it is naive in the extreme.All major religions are big business and in business money is god.They all worship at the same altar and depending on where you are it is made from dollars,pounds or euros.There is always a loophole,think about indulgences.Do whatever you want all your life but attend mass in a Catholic Church on the first Friday of the month for ten months and you will see heaven,not a bad deal.The older popes sold indulgences the same as St Christopher's medals.


Thus the non religious part of my Christianity.


----------



## 269370

jld said:


> I think you have to look at the spirit of the law, not the letter.
> 
> But some people cannot do that.


I try the spirits...<hic>:absolut:

But I think knowing whether hell exists or not seems like a pretty important distinction...:rules:


----------



## Andy1001

jld said:


> My husband is Catholic and does not believe in hell. He says everyone goes to heaven.


A lot of Catholics feel the same.They talk about purgatory where souls denied entry into heaven can languish for centuries waiting for Gods mercy and the prayers of people on earth to finally gain entry.Then on a real happy note we have Limbo,not the dance but a special place where babies who die before been baptised are sent for eternity.If you are a strong believer and happen to have a baby which passes away before christening you can spend the rest of your life knowing your baby will never see heaven.This was updated in 2007 to say that the Vatican "hoped"unchristened babies can now get into heaven but it is still unclear about babies who died before this.


----------



## jld

Andy1001 said:


> A lot of Catholics feel the same.They talk about purgatory where souls denied entry into heaven can languish for centuries waiting for Gods mercy and the prayers of people on earth to finally gain entry.Then on a real happy note we have Limbo,not the dance but a special place where babies who die before been baptised are sent for eternity.If you are a strong believer and happen to have a baby which passes away before christening you can spend the rest of your life knowing your baby will never see heaven.This was updated in 2007 to say that the Vatican "hoped"unchristened babies can now get into heaven but it is still unclear about babies who died before this.


Do you lose any sleep over any of that?

I certainly don't.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> There are just so many gods to choose from to worship...:allhail:
> The one with 72 virgins sounds most enticing so far. But it could be an advertisement trick as I can't really figure out how they have such a high turnover for the virgins, unless everyone is sharing in which case I am not going there. No point of having an STD for eternity.
> These days it's really hard to sort through the weed from the puff...:crazy:


Yes there are many false gods but only one True God.


----------



## Diana7

Andy1001 said:


> A lot of Catholics feel the same.They talk about purgatory where souls denied entry into heaven can languish for centuries waiting for Gods mercy and the prayers of people on earth to finally gain entry.Then on a real happy note we have Limbo,not the dance but a special place where babies who die before been baptised are sent for eternity.If you are a strong believer and happen to have a baby which passes away before christening you can spend the rest of your life knowing your baby will never see heaven.This was updated in 2007 to say that the Vatican "hoped"unchristened babies can now get into heaven but it is still unclear about babies who died before this.


The RC church is way off track.


----------



## Diana7

jld said:


> My husband is Catholic and does not believe in hell. He says everyone goes to heaven.


He clearly doesn't read the Bible then.


----------



## Diana7

Andy1001 said:


> Other than having sex outside marriage I agree with everything you have said.Why is marriage such a be all and end all in your opinion.I am not married but I am honest,faithful,I don't look at porn,I don't cheat on my taxes,I donate to charity and to the church and I treat everybody with respect and dignity.But in your opinion because I am not married to my partner there is something unchristianlike about me?


It depends on whether you want to follow Jesus Christ or not. We are told that sex is for marriage only.


----------



## Diana7

Andy1001 said:


> I am not religious despite being born a catholic,it is the hypocrisy that I can't stomach.I will tell you one thing that is one hundred percent true and anyone that doubts it is naive in the extreme.All major religions are big business and in business money is god.They all worship at the same altar and depending on where you are it is made from dollars,pounds or euros.There is always a loophole,think about indulgences.Do whatever you want all your life but attend mass in a Catholic Church on the first Friday of the month for ten months and you will see heaven,not a bad deal.The older popes sold indulgences the same as St Christopher's medals.


Tha's why I stay RIGHT away from the RC church. They are way off track and most of their beliefs and teachings are are unbiblical, and some even heretical.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> Yes there are many false gods but only one True God.


Don't make me guess! 

Is it Ishtar?

Inanna (Ishtar)

Origin: Mesopotamia (Iraq)
Inanna is the Sumerian goddess of sex, war, and fertility. She later became known as Ishtar, and is associated with lions and the planet Venus. Inanna is known for her capricious and prolific sexual desires and unions. She was once raped by a lowly gardener called Shukaletuda while she slept under his poplar tree. In a fit of rage, she turned the rivers to blood, covered the Earth with storms, and tormented the people with disease. She eventually found her attacker and killed him.

Inanna has a tendency to kill or sacrifice her lovers. In the Epic of Gilgamesh she tries to seduce King Gilgamesh. When he refuses, she releases the Bull of Heaven in an attempt to kill him. Gilgamesh's refusal focuses on his concern for the fate of her numerous past lovers. This includes the speckled allallu-bird whose wing she broke, the lion who she dug a pit for, the horse who she consigned to being whipped and lashed, the shepherd who she turned into a wolf, and the gardener who she turned into a dwarf.

When Inanna gains access to the underworld to attend the funeral of the Bull of Heaven (who Gilgamesh killed), the ruler, Ereshkigal, makes her pass through seven gates. At each gate she is told to remove a piece of clothing or jewelry until she is naked and powerless. The audacious Inanna sits on Ereshkigal's throne and is punished by being turned into a corpse and hung upside-down from hooks. Many of the gods blame Inanna for her fate, but Enki decides to rescue her. As no-one can leave the underworld, a deal is struck in which someone must take her place. Inanna refuses to sacrifice one of her servants, but she has no problem with Ereshkigal taking her husband, Dumuzi, who she thought hadn't mourned her enough. The poor Dumuzi is dragged into the underworld by demons, and Inanna has the temerity to mourn him.


----------



## Andy1001

jld said:


> Do you lose any sleep over any of that?
> 
> I certainly don't.


When I was a kid in school our religion teacher told us there were three unforgivable sins.
Sex outside marriage.
Homosexuality.
Contraception.
My gf has just had our baby.
My best friend and roommate for years is a lesbian.
As for condoms.😬
I think I'm going to hell.
Except I don't believe in hell.


----------



## Hope1964

Andy1001 said:


> A lot of Catholics feel the same.They talk about purgatory where souls denied entry into heaven can languish for centuries waiting for Gods mercy and the prayers of people on earth to finally gain entry.Then on a real happy note we have Limbo,not the dance but a special place where babies who die before been baptised are sent for eternity.If you are a strong believer and happen to have a baby which passes away before christening you can spend the rest of your life knowing your baby will never see heaven.This was updated in 2007 to say that the Vatican "hoped"unchristened babies can now get into heaven but it is still unclear about babies who died before this.


This isn't only a Catholic belief. I was raised in a strict Lutheran house, and when my 3 week old daughter was in the hospital, the pastor came to see us and made sure I knew how to give her an emergency baptism 'just in case'. Freaking freaked me out. Especially since a) she wasn't THAT sick and b) I wasn't a regular church goer. I think my mom sicced him on me.

I did have all my kids baptized, more to appease my parents than for any other reason. I drank the kool aid in a big way for part of my adult life, haven't been to church now in probably a decade.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Don't make me guess!
> 
> Is it Ishtar?
> 
> Inanna (Ishtar)
> 
> Origin: Mesopotamia (Iraq)
> Inanna is the Sumerian goddess of sex, war, and fertility. She later became known as Ishtar, and is associated with lions and the planet Venus. Inanna is known for her capricious and prolific sexual desires and unions. She was once raped by a lowly gardener called Shukaletuda while she slept under his poplar tree. In a fit of rage, she turned the rivers to blood, covered the Earth with storms, and tormented the people with disease. She eventually found her attacker and killed him.
> 
> Inanna has a tendency to kill or sacrifice her lovers. In the Epic of Gilgamesh she tries to seduce King Gilgamesh. When he refuses, she releases the Bull of Heaven in an attempt to kill him. Gilgamesh's refusal focuses on his concern for the fate of her numerous past lovers. This includes the speckled allallu-bird whose wing she broke, the lion who she dug a pit for, the horse who she consigned to being whipped and lashed, the shepherd who she turned into a wolf, and the gardener who she turned into a dwarf.
> 
> When Inanna gains access to the underworld to attend the funeral of the Bull of Heaven (who Gilgamesh killed), the ruler, Ereshkigal, makes her pass through seven gates. At each gate she is told to remove a piece of clothing or jewelry until she is naked and powerless. The audacious Inanna sits on Ereshkigal's throne and is punished by being turned into a corpse and hung upside-down from hooks. Many of the gods blame Inanna for her fate, but Enki decides to rescue her. As no-one can leave the underworld, a deal is struck in which someone must take her place. Inanna refuses to sacrifice one of her servants, but she has no problem with Ereshkigal taking her husband, Dumuzi, who she thought hadn't mourned her enough. The poor Dumuzi is dragged into the underworld by demons, and Inanna has the temerity to mourn him.


I think I dated her for a while.Very high maintenance but good fun all the same.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> Don't make me guess!
> 
> Is it Ishtar?
> 
> Inanna (Ishtar)
> 
> Origin: Mesopotamia (Iraq)
> Inanna is the Sumerian goddess of sex, war, and fertility. She later became known as Ishtar, and is associated with lions and the planet Venus. Inanna is known for her capricious and prolific sexual desires and unions. She was once raped by a lowly gardener called Shukaletuda while she slept under his poplar tree. In a fit of rage, she turned the rivers to blood, covered the Earth with storms, and tormented the people with disease. She eventually found her attacker and killed him.
> 
> Inanna has a tendency to kill or sacrifice her lovers. In the Epic of Gilgamesh she tries to seduce King Gilgamesh. When he refuses, she releases the Bull of Heaven in an attempt to kill him. Gilgamesh's refusal focuses on his concern for the fate of her numerous past lovers. This includes the speckled allallu-bird whose wing she broke, the lion who she dug a pit for, the horse who she consigned to being whipped and lashed, the shepherd who she turned into a wolf, and the gardener who she turned into a dwarf.
> 
> When Inanna gains access to the underworld to attend the funeral of the Bull of Heaven (who Gilgamesh killed), the ruler, Ereshkigal, makes her pass through seven gates. At each gate she is told to remove a piece of clothing or jewelry until she is naked and powerless. The audacious Inanna sits on Ereshkigal's throne and is punished by being turned into a corpse and hung upside-down from hooks. Many of the gods blame Inanna for her fate, but Enki decides to rescue her. As no-one can leave the underworld, a deal is struck in which someone must take her place. Inanna refuses to sacrifice one of her servants, but she has no problem with Ereshkigal taking her husband, Dumuzi, who she thought hadn't mourned her enough. The poor Dumuzi is dragged into the underworld by demons, and Inanna has the temerity to mourn him.


God the Father of Jesus Christ.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> When I was a kid in school our religion teacher told us there were three unforgivable sins.
> Sex outside marriage.
> Homosexuality.
> Contraception.
> My gf has just had our baby.
> My best friend and roommate for years is a lesbian.
> As for condoms.😬
> I think I'm going to hell.
> Except I don't believe in hell.


You'll be ok if you repent last minute. But you have to do it like you mean it. If I am not mistaken Christianity is so popular because it's the only religion where you can commit genocide, rape and kill and still go to heaven after repenting. While an unbaptised child or a regular person who hasn't hurt a fly (but does not believe) will have a harder time getting in.


----------



## Andy1001

Hope1964 said:


> This isn't only a Catholic belief. I was raised in a strict Lutheran house, and when my 3 week old daughter was in the hospital, the pastor came to see us and made sure I knew how to give her an emergency baptism 'just in case'. Freaking freaked me out. Especially since a) she wasn't THAT sick and b) I wasn't a regular church goer. I think my mom sicced him on me.
> 
> I did have all my kids baptized, more to appease my parents than for any other reason. I drank the kool aid in a big way for part of my adult life, haven't been to church now in probably a decade.


Jeez you just triggered me.We had to learn how to do emergency baptisms in school.I was about eight at the time.


----------



## Diana7

Andy1001 said:


> When I was a kid in school our religion teacher told us there were three unforgivable sins.
> Sex outside marriage.
> Homosexuality.
> Contraception.
> My gf has just had our baby.
> My best friend and roommate for years is a lesbian.
> As for condoms.😬
> I think I'm going to hell.
> Except I don't believe in hell.


Clearly a RC teacher. Again, none of that is Biblical. All those things can be forgiven if you ask, and preventing conception in birth control isn't forbidden anyway.

What saves us is believing in and following Jesus Christ.


----------



## Hope1964

Andy1001 said:


> Jeez you just triggered me.We had to learn how to do emergency baptisms in school.I was about eight at the time.


:frown2: EIGHT?? WTF.

I just can't get behind anything that manufactures this type of scenario. To think that a newborn baby could be condemned to spend ETERNITY suffering in any way just because some obscure ritual wasn't performed correctly in time...............it boggles my mind. And can you imagine the guilt an 8 year old would carry if god forbid they were ever in a situation where they could have performed said ritual and didn't????


----------



## jld

inmyprime said:


> You'll be ok if you repent last minute. But you have to do it like you mean it. If I am not mistaken Christianity is so popular because it's the only religion where you can commit genocide, rape and kill and still go to heaven after repenting. While an unbaptised child or a regular person who hasn't hurt a fly (but does not believe) will have a harder time getting in.


I have to say, inmyprime, you have really provided some entertainment in this thread.


----------



## Diana7

Hope1964 said:


> :frown2: EIGHT?? WTF.
> 
> I just can't get behind anything that manufactures this type of scenario. To think that a newborn baby could be condemned to spend ETERNITY suffering in any way just because some obscure ritual wasn't performed correctly in time...............it boggles my mind. And can you imagine the guilt an 8 year old would carry if god forbid they were ever in a situation where they could have performed said ritual and didn't????


Its another nonsense belief by the RCs. Infant sprinkling makes no difference and isnt Biblical.


----------



## Hope1964

Diana7 said:


> Its another nonsense belief by the RCs. Infant sprinkling makes no difference and isnt Biblical.


Apparently Lutherans also believe this - see my first post about it.


----------



## Diana7

inmyprime said:


> You'll be ok if you repent last minute. But you have to do it like you mean it. If I am not mistaken Christianity is so popular because it's the only religion where you can commit genocide, rape and kill and still go to heaven after repenting. While an unbaptised child or a regular person who hasn't hurt a fly (but does not believe) will have a harder time getting in.


I think you must know very few genuine Christians. You have a very wrong view of us. 
God is perfectly able to tell if people really mean it or not. 
Repentance isn't just saying a few words to get to heaven, its a complete change of heart and life. Its turning your life around and heading in the other direction. Its getting off the wide road and onto the narrow one.Its following Jesus Christ when its not PC to do so. Its going against the flow. 

Yes forgiveness is possible for the worse of sins, IF the one repenting is REALLY serious and genuine. I love it that God gives us a second chance and new beginning. 
In the worlds eyes I may be a 'good' person.IE I don't steal, lie, get drunk, cheat, treat people badly, take illegal drugs, swear, etc etc but I am well aware of my weaknesses and failings, and that why I need Jesus Christ. Whether we do really terrible things or smaller ones we are all sinners in the end.


----------



## Diana7

Hope1964 said:


> Apparently Lutherans also believe this - see my first post about it.


The anglican church also does this(i was baptised as a baby) but its only the RC church that believes a baby isn't saved unless they are baptised. Its nonsense.


----------



## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> You'll be ok if you repent last minute. But you have to do it like you mean it. If I am not mistaken Christianity is so popular because it's the only religion where you can commit genocide, rape and kill and still go to heaven after repenting. While an unbaptised child or a regular person who hasn't hurt a fly (but does not believe) will have a harder time getting in.


When I'm in a strange city or town I like checking out old buildings and churches etc.I was once in small town in Ireland that had a very impressive cathedral.While I was there I was struck by the amount of kids walking through the building and leaving again.Then I realised it was the same group of kids coming in,saying a short prayer and leaving and then coming back in again.It turned out that the parish had reopened a side door that had been locked for years and the bishop had asked the Vatican to do something to boost attendance.The Vatican declared a new indulgence and anyone who passed through the door ten times,stopped and prayed for a while and then attended mass the next seven days were granted an indulgence.The indulgence was not for themselves though it had to be a relative or family friend.The catholic schools got in on the act so every Friday afternoon there were classrooms empty because all the little Catholics were going in and out a door to ensure someone got into heaven.You couldn't make it up.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> I think you must know very few genuine Christians. You have a very wrong view of us.
> God is perfectly able to tell if people really mean it or not.
> Repentance isn't just saying a few words to get to heaven, its a complete change of heart and life. Its turning your life around and heading in the other direction. Its getting off the wide road and onto the narrow one.Its following Jesus Christ when its not PC to do so. Its going against the flow.
> 
> Yes forgiveness is possible for the worse of sins, IF the one repenting is REALLY serious and genuine. I love it that God gives us a second chance and new beginning.
> In the worlds eyes I may be a 'good' person.IE I don't steal, lie, get drunk, cheat, treat people badly, take illegal drugs, swear, etc etc but I am well aware of my weaknesses and failings, and that why I need Jesus Christ. Whether we do really terrible things or smaller ones we are all sinners in the end.


That's why I said *you have to mean it*!
Isn't it common to have a priest come to your death bed so you can repent and be absolved of your sins? When you are scared and it's time to face things, who is *not* going to repent *and* mean it?
In Jewish tradition, one carries around the sins forever, I don't think there is any way to absolve or repent. I do think this is one of the vital aspects why Christianity is so popular: t's much nicer living without sins, then with the sins, is it not? "Having another chance" as you said. And "meaning it" doesn't seem especially difficult.


----------



## Andy1001

Diana7 said:


> The anglican church also does this(i was baptised as a baby) but its only the RC church that believes a baby isn't saved unless they are baptised. Its nonsense.


Could you explain to me why even little kids,learning their first prayers beg for forgiveness.What have they done that needs forgiving.The first prayer any child learns contain the line" forgive us our trespasses".The next prayer they learn contains the line "pray for us sinners".I have never understood this.


----------



## 269370

Andy1001 said:


> Could you explain to me why even little kids,learning their first prayers beg for forgiveness.What have they done that needs forgiving.The first prayer any child learns contain the line" forgive us our trespasses".The next prayer they learn contains the line "pray for us sinners".I have never understood this.


Everyone is born with original sin. It's because the woman from the rib messed up.
But Jesus made it go away by getting his dad to kill him. But kids still have to be baptised. Unless Jesus also covered the kids with his baptisms (some believe this version, otherwise hard to fathom they all end up in hell because of the rib woman).


----------



## Bibi1031

Hope1964 said:


> :frown2: EIGHT?? WTF.
> 
> I just can't get behind anything that manufactures this type of scenario. To think that a newborn baby could be condemned to spend ETERNITY suffering in any way *just because some obscure ritual wasn't performed correctly in time..*.............it boggles my mind. And can you imagine the guilt an 8 year old would carry if god forbid they were ever in a situation where they could have performed said ritual and didn't????


The bold part above is a big clue, but you gotta talk this over with the Big Guy and the only one that once you believe in Him will set you straight. :grin2:



These type of posts make me smile. If we worry about babies this much, why do you think God wouldn't care and take care of this?

What kind of a God do you honestly think He is?






inmyprime said:


> Everyone is born with original sin. It's because the woman from the rib messed up.
> But Jesus made it go away by getting his dad to kill him. But kids still have to be baptised. Unless Jesus also covered the kids with his baptisms (some believe this version, otherwise hard to fathom they all end up in hell because of the rib woman).


for someone who is a believer in some god, but not exactly which, Your insight is very insightful. :smile2:

TJ over


----------



## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> The bold part above is a big clue, but you gotta talk this over with the Big Guy and the only one that once you believe in Him will set you straight. :grin2:
> 
> 
> 
> These type of posts make me smile. If we worry about babies this much, why do you think God wouldn't care and take care of this?
> 
> What kind of a God do you honestly think He is?


Not sure, the kind that kills babies and commits so much genocide for no reason? 12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament | Alternet


----------



## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> for someone who is a believer in some god, but not exactly which, Your insight is very insightful. :smile2:
> 
> TJ over


I try to learn as quickly as I can. And sometimes get things mixed up. I hope the general thrust is hitting the right spot though :nerd:


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> Not sure, the kind that kills babies and commits so much genocide for no reason? 12 Craziest, Most Awful Things God Did in the Old Testament | Alternet


Be careful what you read and take it all with a grain of salt unless it comes straight from the Big Boss. 

AFWIW, God's time ain't ours. When the old testament was written, God knew how everything would pan out and did what no one else could or can do to change the catastrophe Eve started. God saves souls not necessarily lives and that is the sad truth. He tried to make our human lives immortal, but Eve did what she did and now we know why human beans die ("beans, " used as reference to the BFG movie which I just finished watching with my DGD).:wink2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana7 View Post
The anglican church also does this(i was baptised as a baby) but its only the RC church that believes a baby isn't saved unless they are baptised. *Its nonsense.*


Of course it is! Even this lesser LRC knows this...pffft.




inmyprime said:


> I hope the ... thrust is hitting the right spot though :nerd:


Pun intended I'm sure. LMAO


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## Bibi1031

.


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> Be careful what you read and take it all with a grain of salt unless it comes straight from the Big Boss.
> 
> AFWIW, God's time ain't ours. When the old testament was written, *God knew how everything would pan out and did what no one else could or can do to change the catastrophe Eve started.* God saves souls not necessarily lives and that is the sad truth. He tried to make our human lives immortal, but Eve did what she did and now we know why human beans die ("beans, " used as reference to the BFG movie which I just finished watching with my DGD).:wink2:
> 
> LMAO


If god knew how everything would pan out, does it mean he also knew in advance that Eve would screw things up for everyone and did nothing about it beforehand? Why couldn't he at least *tell* her WHY she should not be eating the fruit and listening to the snake?
That's what I mean: next time let me design the universe and I'll make sure that everyone stays in paradise happily ever after and also omit making atheists from my plans. They are just too confusing and mildly irritating.:biggrinangelA:


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## 269370

Diana7 said:


> The anglican church also does this(i was baptised as a baby) but its only the RC church that believes a baby isn't saved unless they are baptised. Its nonsense.


So is everyone born with original sin or not? Or do you get it after puberty? I am confused. 
I am pretty sure my original sin was so sinful that even baptism wouldn't have helped.


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> If god knew how everything would pan out, does it mean he also knew in advance that Eve would screw things up for everyone and did nothing about it beforehand? *Why couldn't he at least tell her WHY she should not be eating the fruit* and listening to the snake?
> That's what I mean: next time let me design the universe and I'll make sure that everyone stays in paradise happily ever after and also omit making atheists from my plans. They are just too confusing and mildly irritating.:biggrinangelA:


He did! Now the snake thing is just Lucifer's way of wanting to be godlike by trying to destroy what God created and loved dearly. He was somewhat successful, man dies, but man's soul is eternal and there is no one or nothing to tempt it once the flesh is gone (hence why Jesus in the flesh was the only man fit for the job of saving humanity). 

You have to remember that we kinda, sorta but not really know how God created us, we know bits and pieces of what has been going on, but we have no idea how it all pans out in the end. God created us free and eternal. **** happened and our flesh dies, but the part that is God like in us is still eternal and at no ones reach but God's. In the end, all shall be revealed. When is the end; that's the million dollar question?


"That's what I mean: next time let me design the universe and I'll make sure that everyone stays in paradise happily ever after and also omit making atheists from my plans. They are just too confusing and mildly irritating.:biggrinangelA:"

... and hence why no mere mortal can fill His shoes...sigh. Athieists are part of His plan too silly. :wink2:


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## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> He did! Now the snake thing is just Lucifer's way of wanting to be godlike by trying to destroy what God created and loved dearly. He was somewhat successful, man dies, but man's soul is eternal and there is no one or nothing to tempt it once the flesh is gone (hence why Jesus in the flesh was the only man fit for the job of saving humanity).
> 
> You have to remember that we kinda, sorta but not really know how God created us, we know bits and pieces of what has been going on, but we have no idea how it all pans out in the end. God created us free and eternal. **** happened and our flesh dies, but the part that is God like in us is still eternal and at no ones reach but God's. In the end, all shall be revealed. When is the end; that's the million dollar question?
> 
> 
> "That's what I mean: next time let me design the universe and I'll make sure that everyone stays in paradise happily ever after and also omit making atheists from my plans. They are just too confusing and mildly irritating.:biggrinangelA:"
> 
> ... and hence why no mere mortal can fill His shoes...sigh. Athieists are part of His plan too silly. :wink2:


I wonder what his plan might be with atheists...humour the theists and then laugh at them while they burn in hell? 
I also can't wait for all to be revealed. Sadly, I fear the ending might be disappointing. Like the last episode of Lost (where everyone is dead and dreaming crazy ****).


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## Bibi1031

inmyprime said:


> I wonder what his plan might be with atheists...humour the theists and then laugh at them while they burn in hell?
> I also can't wait for all to be revealed. Sadly, *I fear the ending might be disappointing.* Like the last episode of Lost (where everyone is dead and dreaming crazy ****).


If you seek God with this silly conclusions, is it any wonder you are so darn confused and haven't found nothing? 

Dig deeper, :rofl:


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## SunCMars

Married but Happy said:


> No. Well, maybe Aphrodite, Venus, Rati, or Aizen Myō-ō. But the difference is that my wife is real - gods are all fictional.


Sigh.....

And when your wife dies and to dust becomes....

And when the Earth is taken in a flash and all life in your limited "scope" become space dust....

And yet, God continues..... :|


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## Duguesclin

inmyprime said:


> Sounds more like it is Jesus, who should be jealous of Dug. Can I sign up for a new religion to worship Dug? I believe he is real.


Just make sure you send me 10% of your income (before tax).


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## 269370

Duguesclin said:


> Just make sure you send me 10% of your income (before tax).




He hath revealed himself to me! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

inmyprime said:


> Everyone is born with original sin. It's because the woman from the rib messed up.
> But Jesus made it go away by getting his dad to kill him. But kids still have to be baptised. Unless Jesus also covered the kids with his baptisms (some believe this version, otherwise hard to fathom they all end up in hell because of the rib woman).


I see.And there was me thinking it was confusing.🤔🤔🤔🤔


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## Andy1001

Duguesclin said:


> Just make sure you send me 10% of your income (before tax).


What do you intend to call the followers of your new religion.
And what is the religion going to be called.
Dug's' Disciples rolls off the tongue fairly neatly.
Make sure there is no confusion with DuG pinnick when you name your new religion.


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## aine

Hmmmm, not really but he does make me believe there is good and evil and sometimes they reside in the same person!


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## Married but Happy

SunCMars said:


> Sigh.....
> 
> And when your wife dies and to dust becomes....
> 
> And when the Earth is taken in a flash and all life in your limited "scope" become space dust....
> 
> And yet, God continues..... :|


And yet, God dies every time a believer dies, as God lives _only_ in their imagination.


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## Dr. Stupid

inmyprime said:


> I would agree with you, under normal circumstances, but in this particular instance, you mentioned that the religious used to be patronising in the past and I brought up the fact that they were way more than that. I did not imply anything about the religious of today. Though now that you mention it...
> I don't know how you can say that it doesn't matter what motivated the killings. Anyone who didn't agree with a particular ideology was nipped in the bud. Stalin didn't kill people because he wanted to spread "atheism" (that's non-sensical) he killed anyone who opposed him. As did most religions in the past. It's a historical fact. It's like saying that Mao mass-murdered because he was a vegetarian. I am not extrapolating anything about the current religious. Like I said, you actually brought up the comparison between *now* and *then*...But I agree with your sentiment: we should be tolerant of course of all kinds of crap, especially in the today world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come on, don't ruin it for me :crying: Light-hearted humour has never killed anyone. Nobody claims this 'thread' is "harmful".
> 
> Schools providing mis-information to children, on the other hand, can be argued to equal child abuse:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201408/does-christianity-harm-children
> 
> _* Christianity teaches children that they are intrinsically evil; they did nothing wrong, but just by being born and being alive, they are evil. This is a terrible thing to teach children, not only because it is false, but because it is the exact wrong message children should be taught, which is that they are intrinsically wonderful, noble, and lovable, and that they have boundless goodness inside them.
> 
> * Christianity teaches children that there exists a powerful, evil Devil. A most dangerous demon. Beware! This horrible falsity infuses their childhood with needless fear and dread, and teaches them that the world is a dangerous place, with a malevolent demon lurking in the wait. In my own research, I’ve interviewed many adults who describe the whole Satan thing as a decidedly traumatic element of their children, and in some egregious cases, unambiguously abusive.
> 
> * Christianity teaches children that God killed his own child to make up for our wickedness. In other words, we are evil, and by killing his own child, our evil is somehow wiped away and forgiven. Our guilt is cleansed. But how does that work? If I abuse my wife, and then a cop comes over and kills my son, does that atone for the wickedness I committed against my wife? How so? Only I can atone for my own wrongdoings and harmful actions. If I abuse my wife, I need to make amends in order to earn her forgiveness. I can’t kill our cat instead. And besides, why couldn’t God forgive us without killing his son? Does he require a blood sacrifice, like some pagan ogre? The entire story of Jesus “dying for our sins” makes no moral or ethical sense, and it is an extremely confusing/disturbing tale to tell our children.
> 
> * Christianity teaches children that those who accept Jesus as their personal savior are good/saved/going to heaven and those that do not accept Jesus as their personal savior are sinful and destined for hell. This can cause children to feel smug, superior, self-righteous, judgmental, and to look down upon and condemn others – be they kids on the schoolyard, neighbors, or even relatives._
> 
> It's up to you of course to decide whether it's "harmful". I do personally think that the kind of peace that some believers talk about, seems like a very beneficial and valuable thing and I do not mock that. In fact, I am positively jealous that i can't seem to convince myself to believe to have some of that.
> 
> I think you still are mis-understanding what "atheism" is. You are confusing militant atheism or anti-theism with 'regular' atheism, if there is such a thing...
> 
> 
> 
> How did you arrive at this "scientific" conclusion? (I would be genuinely interested to read more about it as it is a topic of interest for me). I do instinctively think you might be right though. I "fill up my brain" with all kinds of stuff & theories (holographic universe, multi-verses etc). those are all fascinating things to think about. But it's very different from being 100% *convinced* about something invisible constantly surveying you...


You're still trying to pin a statement on me which I did not make. What part of "When I was growing up" can't you understand? You brought the history of the world into it. Until then, mine was completely anecdotal. Then, as often happens with atheists, the "violent religious throughout history" grenade was thrown. My point was that people are people, and saying that atheists and the religious are different, because one is one and the other is another, with regards to violent acts against other humans is patently false. The reason that it is brought up by atheists is because they wish to smear all faiths with the taint of violence and oppression. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, regardless of any diversions on some people's part to avoid the comparison.

It's not logical. Religious and non-religious people can be violent, some for secular (godless) reasons, and others for religious reasons. To disclaim the actions of the godless because of their motives is fine, but they still were godless, and still committed atrocities. It can be argued that the faithful fought in the name of their God or gods, but not all, and the results were the same: Murdered innocents. Either way, if one wishes to judge good people on the basis that others were bad, then we're all a part of one group or another who's predecessors committed violent acts against others. 

I illustrated your smear against the faithful by resorting to the same strategy against your ideology. You haven't murdered anyone (hopefully) and you resent the comparison that I made. What's the difference between what you've done and what I've done? 

It is not your facts or so called facts. It is how you're using them to brand others, but you too can be branded in any number of ways, because your bloodline has existed since the dawn of life, in one form or another, and your associations are many. So, you and I both, by your logic, are guilty of (ironically) an "original sin" of some form or another. 

As for you telling me that I don't understand atheism or "atheists", it's the same to me as Christians, Muslims, and Jews telling me that I don't understand them as well. So many sects. How can one keep track? I only go by what they call themselves and their behaviors. You would be well served to go to all of the so-called atheists (who claim the title but don't meet your definition) and tell them that they're not really atheists, that way, the purity of your message won't be tainted by impostors. As for me, you are you. What you label yourself is voluntary, with all of the positive and negative connotations. 

I've found that there is always a diversion from so called atheists when one attempts to turn their strategies against them, usually like you have done, by redefining (or in your opinion "properly" defining) the term, conveniently excluding yourself from the negative connotations. 

Now, when we get to the issue of scientific evidence of a "faith center" or similar (so many different terms are used) in the brains of humans, I have no desire to dig through my library and scan a bunch of JAMA, AJP, etc., articles, discussions, and papers on the subject, but if you really want to know, you'll find what you seek. In my practice (personal experience/observations), and before that, my tenure, it was a subject of study by many researchers. 

Finally, what Christianity "teaches" children is not my area of expertise. It's always about the "poor mistreated children" when someone wants to strike a nerve, isn't it? I digress... I have found no direct systemic correlation between the teachings of Christianity and any harm to children, although I've found bad and good parents, teachers, and others, both religious and non-religious who have intentionally and unintentionally harmed their children. The fact that you, who I presume holds logic as supreme, would single out Christians as being somehow more harmful, shows that you are probably more of an anti-theist than an atheist, at least according to your definition of the term. As for Psychology Today's blog section, it is the McDonald's of psychological thought. Now, a serious multi-year and multi-generational study of religious vs. non-religious upbringings, with a wide cross section of children, coming to the conclusion that "Jesus screws up children", could be taken more seriously than the musings of the occasional non-Christian academic on a blog site. Seriously... that's hard evidence to you?

It is unfortunate, that as an agnostic, you don't have much of an emotional grip on me, or it would probably be more entertaining, no? I suppose you could smear the "I don't know" or agnostic crowd by posting examples of "Agnostics Gone Wild", except agnostics aren't generally the fanatical type. "I don't know" isn't exactly a recipe for fanaticism like religion, atheism (or anti-theism, or militant atheism, or... it's so confusing!) is.


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## 269370

...


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> I am going by all the people I have known in the 60 years of my life and the 40 years of being a Christian.I go by what I see in the world around me, the falling moral values, the dishonesty, the selfishness.I see what people do, what they say and how they act. I see the people in my church and other churches and how different they are from that. Their high moral values, their honesty, their integrity, their compassion.
> 
> I have lived life with him and without Him, and believe me, we are not in the least brainwashed. I have never believed anything just because I was told to, only because its true.
> My husband is a very intelligent man, a very logical thinker, a critical thinker,a scientist and medical researcher and a very strong Christian. God loves us to use our minds and thoughts. To learn and understand the universe around us. He often talks to God about His work.


My question was, where is your proof that religious men are more moral than non religious? I can equally say that in my 50 years of living a non religious life I have been surrounded by the most moral, honest men and non of them are religious.

What is you opinion on the worldwide epidemic of sexual abuse against children by church leaders?


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## jld

MrsHolland said:


> My question was, where is your proof that religious men are more moral than non religious? I can equally say that in my 50 years of living a non religious life I have been surrounded by the most moral, honest men and non of them are religious.
> 
> *What is you opinion on the worldwide epidemic of sexual abuse against children by church leaders?*


Not Diana, but I think it is appalling.

I heard once that churches and schools are big draws for pedophiles.


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## 225985

jld said:


> Not Diana, but I think it is appalling.
> 
> 
> 
> I heard once that churches and schools are big draws for pedophiles.




What is your source?


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## jld

blueinbr said:


> What is your source?


Ask me nicely and I'll tell you.


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## Andy1001

jld said:


> Not Diana, but I think it is appalling.
> 
> I heard once that churches and schools are big draws for pedophiles.


In strong catholic countries to have a son enter the priesthood was about as big a deal as you could ever imagine.My relatives in Ireland tell me about little boys as young as four years old being pushed towards priesthood without ever having a choice in the matter.They start as altar boys and eventually all their free time is spent on church activities.If you have a paedophile priest or parish council member then these kids are ripe for exploitation and if it is discovered,the child is made feel that it was his fault and is sworn not to reveal anything.Then years later he can't form a relationship with a woman and has left the church.Alcohilism,drug addiction and suicide are rampant in these cases.


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## jld

Andy1001 said:


> In strong catholic countries to have a son enter the priesthood was about as big a deal as you could ever imagine.My relatives in Ireland tell me about little boys as young as four years old being pushed towards priesthood without ever having a choice in the matter.They start as altar boys and eventually all their free time is spent on church activities.If you have a paedophile priest or parish council member then these kids are ripe for exploitation and if it is discovered,the child is made feel that it was his fault and is sworn not to reveal anything.Then years later he can't form a relationship with a woman and has left the church.Alcohilism,drug addiction and suicide are rampant in these cases.


Very sad. 

My nephew is being ordained this summer, and yes, it is a huge deal. The last family member to become a priest is now in his 80s.

I hope he will free to leave, though, if he ever decides it is no longer for him.


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## Andy1001

jld said:


> Very sad.
> 
> My nephew is being ordained this summer, and yes, it is a huge deal. The last family member to become a priest is now in his 80s.
> 
> I hope he will free to leave, though, if he ever decides it is no longer for him.


It's very simple in my opinion.Allow priests to marry.All these "housekeepers" living with priests down through the years probably did more good for the church than all the prayers in the world.


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## jld

Andy1001 said:


> It's very simple in my opinion.Allow priests to marry.*All these "housekeepers" living with priests down through the years probably did more good for the church than all the prayers in the world*.


Lol, Andy.


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## wellseasoned

God is real. God is tugging at your soul calling to you to make a decision .Jesus Christ, Son of God is real! DIed for
your sins! Died on a cross! Rose from the Dead 3 days later! And now sits on the right side of God in Heaven! You, must
believe this to be saved! Jesus died for your sins! YOu must confess your belief that Jesus died and paid for your sins!
Jesus is the Lord the son of the living God! Its that simple to spend forever in Heaven! Its your choice! Call on the name of the
Lord and be saved! 
I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. My Lord and Savior.0


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## Diana7

jld said:


> Not Diana, but I think it is appalling.
> 
> I heard once that churches and schools are big draws for pedophiles.


They will get jobs where they have access to children. In the uk now though, we have struct rules in force to protect children.Everyone who works with children in anyway has to be police checked. 
The RC's acted appallingly with child abuse situations. Many of their priests went into those jobs to get access to children I am sure.


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## Diana7

wellseasoned said:


> God is real. God is tugging at your soul calling to you to make a decision .Jesus Christ, Son of God is real! DIed for
> your sins! Died on a cross! Rose from the Dead 3 days later! And now sits on the right side of God in Heaven! You, must
> believe this to be saved! Jesus died for your sins! YOu must confess your belief that Jesus died and paid for your sins!
> Jesus is the Lord the son of the living God! Its that simple to spend forever in Heaven! Its your choice! Call on the name of the
> Lord and be saved!
> I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. My Lord and Savior.0


Yep:smile2:


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## SimplyAmorous

This is my take on non-theist vs theist...I've met those who are wonderful on both sides of the aisle and those I want nothing to do with.... what people profess means little to me, it's how they live and treat others, especially those more vulnerable, "the least of these"... as the Bible could call them....


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## sissyphus

Nope, base on her personality I think there's a possibility that the Devil exists. Sometimes I truly thinks she's possessed.


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