# Wife had an EA and I'm numb



## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

We have been married 12 years and have 4 children from 10 to 2 years old. We had a loving marriage until last week when I found my wife was having an EA.

On Thursday I was checking my e-mail and found that her e-mail was open. I read one from an address I didn't recognize and quickly realized that they had met on [website removed by admin]. The exchange was tame, and it really looked like they hadn't met before. Lo and behold they had a lunch date scheduled for Friday. I said nothing. It almost looked like a scam e-mail where they pretend to know you. Still she had replied, so I was suspicious - and they mentioned AM.

That night I noticed her wedding ring was off. I told her I might get off work early and be available for lunch. She said she had a lunch scheduled with her friend, so sorry.

I did get off right around lunch and used Find My iPhone to get an approximate location, which was within a couple of miles from work. I drove over and found her returning to her car alone. I confronted her and she admitted she met a guy from AM. She didn't like him and they hadn't kissed. Talking later, I think both of us consider this an affair even though it wasn't physical.

She is very contrite and says she is ashamed. I have been very even-handed and have tried my best to avoid any talk that either of us could be resentful about in the future.

I have never cheated on my wife - though she constantly suspects me of it. I have never had an EA or PA. My work (medicine) requires a lot of odd hours and time away from home. This requires a lot of trust if someone suspects cheating. I thought an affair on my part would not only violate my marriage vows, but also blowtorch the family I love.

She left for the weekend with her friends (yes, only her girlfriends). Now I am talking care of our 4 young children and trying to sort this out. I am numb. I think we can survive this, but I don't know where to start. I am not ready to talk about her emotional needs and how bad I have been at meeting them. I don't think it's true. I am a reasonable man, but I have some pride. She cheated, and I get to talk it out endlessly? What a deal.

I am numb. I don't know where to start. Is this common? I want to save our marriage. I do love her, and I won't have an affair. The trust has been shattered, but all I can do is plod forward. I feel like a punching bag, just taking the hits. Any advice - never thought I would have this problem. Thanks for reading this long post.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

She must be completely transparent. Everything. Phone, internet, gps, the whole nine yards. The other thing is, you caught her, she did not confess. Also going to AM, she wasn't looking for friendship or even an EA. She was looking for sex. I would have her take a polygraph every 6 months for the forseeable future. Good luck.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

I am very new to this board - I never had a reason to use it until now. I have noticed that you recommend polygraphs to people. I won't do that. 

Do other people think it's a good idea to get her passwords and check her e-mail? I am going to sit down with her and read all of her [website removed by admin] posts or whatever (never seen the site myself). What an ugly concept for a website. How do those prople sleep at night knowing they are breaking up families every day?


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Anyone think checking her AM account is a bad thing?


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Check whatever you need to for you sanity. NO SECRETS in marriage. Trust yourself. I'm afraid you are going to learn more. I'm sorry you're in for a difficult road. 
Trust yourself.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't know what I need for my sanity. As it is I'm shaken up, but also a bit numb and detached. I guess I should find out all there is to know before moving forward. Maybe the thought of find out more is too frightening.

Anyone please chime in for advice. I have no one to talk to. I won't talk to my friends because I want to work this out. I can't talk to my family- she has always felt like they mistreated her and I hesitate to give her more ammunition for her opinion.


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

You are going to be numb. Normal.
Your reality has changed.
But its not the end. Its just a change. Its up to you and her how things go from here.
I always suggest this reading - it really helped - and I mean read it NOW. Its online and easy to get through, but very powerful. 
google: love busters and look for the Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice part about infidelity. 
You are not alone. 
What comes next can be about no one but YOU. Don't let it be about the kids or what anyone else thinks of your W. If you need to talk to someone then talk. What she has done is HER gift to the world, not yours. Take care of yourself and look openly at your marriage. You might find good answers.

But you are going to feel numb for awhile. Natural.
Don't pressure yourself to decide/resolve/complete anything.
Good luck.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks. It's always nice for someone to say "that's normal". I do it every day for my patients and often it's all they need to hear. 

My wife was immediately scared I would go out and tell someone. I feel the opposite for the time being. Why would I advertise to the world my wife wasn't fulfilled in our marriage - sexually, emotionally or intellectually? It's like my basement is flooded from a leaky pipe but from the outside the house looks great- why does anyone else need to know? Still I am very happy I found this board because I do need to talk and get advice. Only one of my real friends has every talked to me about this, and they are separated. It's funny, at work at least 3 or 4 other doctors have opened up to me about their divorces - when we haven't even been that close. I guess they needed to get it off their chest. I just stammered around a bit ("Man that sounds terrible...") before making my exit. They need this board (as do I)!


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## Banff (Feb 8, 2010)

scalpel said:


> Thanks. It's always nice for someone to say "that's normal". I do it every day for my patients and often it's all they need to hear.
> 
> My wife was immediately scared I would go out and tell someone. I feel the opposite for the time being. Why would I advertise to the world my wife wasn't fulfilled in our marriage - sexually, emotionally or intellectually? It's like my basement is flooded from a leaky pipe but from the outside the house looks great- why does anyone else need to know? Still I am very happy I found this board because I do need to talk and get advice. Only one of my real friends has every talked to me about this, and they are separated. It's funny, at work at least 3 or 4 other doctors have opened up to me about their divorces - when we haven't even been that close. I guess they needed to get it off their chest. I just stammered around a bit ("Man that sounds terrible...") before making my exit. They need this board (as do I)!


I hate to say this --- but u need to be prepared for much more. What you will see in most of these threads is that you have only discovered the tip of the iceberg. Know that how you feel is what we have all felt. The best advice I can give is to stay calm and think clearly.
But do some homework so you know what you are dealing with. Remember that you love your wife and your family. Be ready for the fight of your life - not with your wife - but for your wife and family. 
Good luck. There are several great folks on here with super advice. 
A great book - "Love Must Be Tough". - read it. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

scalpel said:


> As it is I'm shaken up, but also a bit numb and detached.


I think it's a form of self-preservation. 

I understand (I've been in your shoes) the frustration that you have been betrayed and now you are the one that needs to step up and make changes. However, being emotionally close is a very important part of a strong marriage and if that has been lacking you likely will both need to make changes to make your marriage stronger going foward.

I do believe your wife's willingingness to open up, live open-book with passwords, etc. shows that she is willing to do what it takes to rebuild your trust. That being said, I think it's a personal decision on how much you feel you want/need to know to move past this. If she is not willing to do what you need her to in order to rebuild trust, she's not where she needs to be as far as working on your marriage.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Initfortheduration said:


> She must be completely transparent. Everything. Phone, internet, gps, the whole nine yards. The other thing is, you caught her, she did not confess. Also going to AM, she wasn't looking for friendship or even an EA. She was looking for sex. I would have her take a polygraph every 6 months for the forseeable future. Good luck.


Really a polygraph? You guys are crazy.

It's almost like some of you want misery! Why would you want to know every little detail? What freaking purpose would that serve? Why not just add everytime you tell a white lie, lust, masturbate, curse, think a evil thought, malice, hatred and everything else questionable?

I wish the OP good luck!! I don't want to know every detail if our situations were reversed........just give me a STD test and we will try to move on or get a divorce. I guarantee if I know every little detail and it does end up being some sorted multi-year affair like some of you are alluding too it would definitely be a divorce. 

Principle vs very happy illusion I'll take the very happy illusion everytime. I can give you many examples in life of why!!!!


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Well we had a long talk last night and it went reasonably well. I asked for her [website removed by admin] info, and the account had been closed (she said last week, but I suspect the afternoon I found out). We looked at her e-mail, and of course it was clean as well. I hate this checking up garbage. I hate the fact she put me in this position. 

We talked about a lot of stuff. I told her I wanted to strengthen our marriage and move forward. Her response was "why does everything in life have to be such a chore? Why do we always have to work on things." All at once I felt like we were back where we started. I had intended to let her stew for a few days about what I would do next (tell her family, ask her to leave, etc), but it didn't feel right to let her hang like that. I laid my cards on the table and told her I wasn't leaving, or telling anyone.

I sure hope this isn't the tip of the iceberg. Somehow I don't think it is. She was so bad at cheating - using her regular e-mail and taking her wedding ring off the day before - that I don't think she has had the practice. I may be deluding myself.


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## morningdew (Jan 14, 2010)

Your trust has been breached and it is normal to feel the way you feel (at least that's what my counselor just told me tonight). One thing I can share is what she also told me that to gain the trust back will be a hard work it won't happen overnight. 

If you haven't check it out, please try to read some really helpful articles on Marriage Builder 

Best of luck to you both


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's advice. It has really helped me.

We have talked it out, and I think things will be better. I don't want to fall back into the same routines and complacency. I am having trouble determining my next step. I think I'm still numb. I expected to have strong feelings and anger, but what I mostly feel is sadness.


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## toolate (Sep 22, 2009)

Of course her accounts were cleaned and or closed, she was caught red handed! My husband was supposed to allow me access and all he did was show me his inbox on one account for all of 10 seconds before he deleted pretty much all of it.... and ever since its been tighter than ever. 

You may want to get webwatcher and install it on your computer (Or the computer she uses the most) to monitor her without having to say anything to her. She may have other accounts that she did not disclose to you. If a married woman has gotten to the point where she actually goes out and meets another man... she has been doing alot of research prior to. Research meaning online chatting and looking through availables, etc. 

Dont talk with her about it again at all until/unless you have more to go on or she will just get defensive and say "I only met him for lunch... stop overreacting." You need to pretend you have completely put it behind you for a while... which will do one of two things make her feel as though she can go try again, in which case you will know about it if you are monitoring... or she truly made a one time mistake and you will know about it. The key phrase there is "you will know about it"... and you will know without having to talk with her about it which sounds as if if creates a bit of defensiveness on her part... which only leads to distance and more distance and resentment. 

If your profession was not a doctor, I would have guessed you were one of my best friends husbands... they have a very similar situation... and identical family structure. 

My hairdresser was cheated on and lied to for the entirity of her 18 year marriage. Thankfully there were no children for them... but her trust, the trust she thought she had for the duration of the marriage was false... be careful, she is obviously mor eunhappy than you know. Maybe try asking her what you dont give her that made her wander to that site and meet another person? But drop it if she gets defensive unless you want arguing. You need to play the game for a while until you know what you are trying to trust.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Why does everything have to be a chore? My gosh you just caught her arranging to have sex with some guy she has never met, and that is her response. She might as well have said "You mean I can't go have sex with strangers, bummer". Your immediate response of chasing her (and yes you were chasing her) has only cemented her sense of entitlement. But I guess you have to learn on your own. You needed to shake her world, but newly cheated on spouses often chase the cheater, which only drives them further away. You should have cut off access to all accounts and CCs, called her parents and kicked her out. You should have made her work her way back to you, because then your marriage would be something of value to her. But I guess you want to make things easy on her, She'll like that.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Wow. I am not in favor of tearing her world apart (and mine) because of this lunch date. Cancel her cards and close her accounts? How will she feed our children? I don't consider this war.

On the subject of snooping into her computer I am conflicted. I may do it for a month or so for some peace of mind, though I'm more numb than anything. Anyone have any advice on this? She was indignant that I would track her via her phone until I pointed out it was the best thing I ever did for us. If she had not been caught she might be further down the road to a physical relationship and reconciling would be that much harder. Then again, maybe I don't know the whole story.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I laid my cards on the table and told her I wasn't leaving, or telling anyone.


This was a mistake. She has lost the right to hide anything from you and she needs to agree to total transparency. And you need to NOT give her assurance that nothing will happen to her - not right now.

That is like slapping the little boy's hand, when he steals from the store. He should have to apologize to the owner and make up for what he stole. Why? Because now he'll just be bolder and steal MORE.

[website removed by admin]? Really? And you think it was just this little _lunch_?

You really need to arm yourself with some information and some determination to fight whatever affair(s) she is having. 

The first thing you need to do is install a keylogger on her computer so that you can see whether she truly IS done.

scalpel, cheaters LIE. Even if they are your wife.

Only after that can you know how to proceed.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

You really do insist on putting on the blinders. Who said anything about starving your children? She makes a list of what she needs at the store and you go together. Does that sound hard. Destroy her world. My friend, she is destroying hers, yours and your children's. This is not war with her. It is a war against infidelity, against an affair. The discipline is a kin to pavlovs dog. She cheats and she has a negative consequence. You call it a lunch date? It was a potential hook-up from Ashley Madison. Ashley Madison is a site where married people go to set up sexual encounters with strangers. A lunch date? The way you minimize her activities is a virtual guarantee that she will cheat, and soon. You shoot down the suggestion of a polygraph. When you could find out the truth by asking 2 questions. "Have you cheated? and "Will you try to cheat again. Your marriage must only be somewhat more important to you then your wife. And Tunera is right about the keylogger. I would also suggest a Voice activated recorder for her car and for the room she talks on the phone in the most.


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## Banff (Feb 8, 2010)

Scalpel

Sorry to say that you are in DENIAL. Four months before I really found out what was going on I found a little info like yours. My wife pleaded on her knees with tears streaming down her face that I was her whole universe and she would NEVER do anything to hurt our marriage. I laid back and felt a little guilty for doubting her. A few months later I found one more thing, it blew up, and turned out to have been going on for nearly a year. 

Confronting her the first time only made her be better at hiding things. I would bet one of your years salary that you are in denial, and she has/is doing much more than you are willing to accept.


For the sake of your marriage, and to stop things from getting too far gone you need to do as the others have suggested, be alert, be the best husband possible for your wife, and dig a little.

Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

That elicited some responses! I appreciate everyone's comments as you can see I'm a bit lost on how to proceed.

I don't think she expected just a lunch date from AM, and I told her so. She said she hadn't thought it through completely.

Polygraphs are of extremely dubious value and I wouldn't even consider it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then insist on a keylogger on her computer, total access to her phone records, and a GPS in her car.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Wake up. YOU think a polygraph is of dubious value? It doesn't matter what you think. Its what she believes that counts. First off you don't even necessarily have to go. You run info off the internet, you tell that you scheduled one for day after tomorrow. Chances are she spills everything b4 you go. I don't know, maybe you really don't want to find out how far she has gone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I was just going to say the same thing. In the hundreds of affairs I've read about or advised in over the years, out of the few dozen cases where the betrayed spouse insists on a polygraph, nearly every single one ended up with the wayward spilling everything the day before. Or in the car on the way to the polygraph. It truly is like the Hand of God to waywards (unless they're pathological). 

You know what you should do? Go over to marriagbuilders.com and start reading threads in the Infidelity section. Over there, the program is very rigid - snoop, find evidence, set boundaries, expose if they refuse to quit, and set even higher boundaries if they agree to quit the affair and come back. Often, that includes taking a polygraph just so the couple can get a baseline on what is and isn't going on. 

The point is, out of all those stories with wayward wives, the betrayed husband started out exactly like you in almost every case - I trust her, she won't do that, she just isn't like that, I would know, I won't snoop cos that's dishonest, I'll just have to believe her, I have integrity and snooping is wrong...

Until they DO find the evidence, and they have to admit that all of us telling him to snoop were right. All of us telling him to expose the affair were right, it was the only thing that stopped her. All of us telling him to set HIGH standards if she wanted to stay married were right because when he didn't, when he just took her back and 'trusted' her - she kept right on cheating, just got better at hiding it.

The thing is, scalpel, women have to have STRONG men. They have to RESPECT their men. Guys who are too nice, too trusting, too giving...your women grow to hate you for being so weak. THEN they go out looking for a 'real' man who will shake her to her boots. And it's all your fault for being such a wuss. And they have EVERY right to both cheat and lie because you deserve it. I could make a list of all the things you are saying, and how they turned out to be fake or wrong in all those other marriages I watched disintegrate while the man tried to not 'harm' his wife by snooping and exposing and setting limits.

THAT is the wife you have right now. I just hope it doesn't take you five more years to realize how badly you are being had.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

How many of you had teenagers that have grown up? Did any of them keep a secret from you as a parent? My daughter opened up about a secret she had been keeping for 4 years I had no clue our relationship was awesome!! People would talk about how great it was and still is, but she still didn't tell me EVERYTHING!!

I'm not saying his wife is being totally truthful and I'm not saying it's not worth finding out, but I question how far you go without making life miserable for both parties.

If things are going great and life is fun how far do you dig? How far do you go without it feeling wierd? 

I don't go around trying to catch my daughter in every little mistake gps, call log, give me your facebook login, where are you, why, etc etc?

I still say dig dig dig dig and make it miserable or find out more than you want versus a happy illusion of a quasi or fully repentent spouse and I'll pick the later vs the former. I just can't imagine saying "Honey, give me all of your passwords, emails, I want to know where you are, why, when, with who?" that's me good luck to the OP.

Hopefully I won't have to make that call, but if I do I'll let you all know how I handle it.


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## blueyes (Mar 25, 2010)

I am very sorry about what u r going through, I am going through the same thing with my husband but it was me that was/is having an EA. I didn't go to Ashley Madison though, thats a whole other story and u better both go for councelling for that one, like someone else said that wasn't an EA that is for an all out planned affair. Sorry to be so upfront with u. Mine was different, I know this man for 10yrs and we hav always had an attraction to each other, I love my husand and my kids but after 22yrs of marriage I am missing something, my hsband quit talking yrs ago so I found myself talking to this other man alot. Anyways go get some help for yourself and your wife good luck


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The point is, THIS particular person is hooking up with people from Ashley Madison. That means that she went out LOOKING to get another guy. SHE WANTED TO CHEAT; if she hasn't already.

This isn't just worrying about your spouse acting strange. This is facing the fact that your spouse is going out SOLICITING strange men, and then lying to her husband's face about it.

When you deal with a spouse in that situation, you don't just sit back and say 'hmmm, I'm going to be nicer to her so she'll stop it.'

That doesn't work on people who have decided to go out and cheat - by that time, they aren't interested in a nice spouse - they want more.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

turnera said:


> The thing is, scalpel, women have to have STRONG men. They have to RESPECT their men. Guys who are too nice, too trusting, too giving...your women grow to hate you for being so weak. THEN they go out looking for a 'real' man who will shake her to her boots


*Or knock em.*



turnera said:


> And it's all your fault for being such a wuss. And they have EVERY right to both cheat and lie because you deserve it. I could make a list of all the things you are saying, and how they turned out to be fake or wrong in all those other marriages I watched disintegrate while the man tried to not 'harm' his wife by snooping and exposing and setting limits.
> 
> THAT is the wife you have right now. I just hope it doesn't take you five more years to realize how badly you are being had.


*Bingo*

Men like this think they're so understanding, so supportive. They will "FEEL" their wives into fidelity.

You can tell by her "Why does everything have to be a chore" comment, that she is entitled, lazy, and doesn't value her marriage. What do you want to bet that she is SAHM who has been coddled. He is worried about what she thinks instead of what she is planning to do in bed with some stranger.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

People seem to have a strong opinion about what I'm doing - mostly how I'm doing it wrong. I don't mind. The reason I'm on this site is to get ideas how to proceed.

When does the snooping do more harm than good? I can't imagine scheduling a polygraph just so she'll "break" and tell me everything. 

She still insists that it would have been better if I never found out. She claims she knew from the minute she walked in the restaurant she couldn't go through with it. I disagree. A secret like that would wreck her self esteem and likely our future together. 

On the other hand, how sure are all of you "full court press" people that you really do know everything? Are you ever satisfied you know everything that has happened and everything going on in her/his mind? Has it made you happier?


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

I think the idea of having access to email, fb,etc. is not necessarily to know everything. The idea is to keep the other person honest, and keep you informed. 

If my wife is not supposed to be in contact with Bob Jones and I do a check of her email and see a message from Bob, well that tells me something. If I see an email from someone else that looks strange or I do not know the person, did Bob open an email account with another name (my wife did this)? Is my wife trying to hook up with Joe Bobbins now?

This is kind of like locking your door to keep the honest person honest.


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## losinglove (Dec 8, 2009)

Exactly, eliminate secrecy. Keep the marriage open and honest.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

scalpel said:


> People seem to have a strong opinion about what I'm doing - mostly how I'm doing it wrong. I don't mind. The reason I'm on this site is to get ideas how to proceed.
> 
> When does the snooping do more harm than good? I can't imagine scheduling a polygraph just so she'll "break" and tell me everything.
> 
> ...


It's not a real marriage, if you don't find out and she never tells you. Sorry, but it's not. A marriage is supposed be of two best friends who share everything and HELP each other through everything. I've seen couples who tell each other everything, even when they start to think about another person - that stops it right there and they refocus on affair-proofing their marriage.

A polygraph should only be used at the point at which she says "I had an affair and I am now stopping" but won't agree to let you monitor her to ensure she's not lying. Because if she won't allow you to monitor her (passwords, etc.), then she is either continuing to cheat and lying to you or not fully investing in your marriage - i.e., keeping a way out just in case. That's not a marriage, nor is the lying person. Only you will know if you're faced with this with your wife.

On the other hand, if she is REALLY repentant and embarrassed and TRULY never planning to do it again, she should be at a humble enough stage that SHE would offer to do the polygraph to prove to you that you can trust her.

See, people who get caught cheating, but don't own up to it, deny things, lie, they are not humble. They are self-preserving - putting themselves first instead of you. All that means is that they are holding out to see if something better comes along. 

I think your biggest issue at this point is to determine if she is LYING to you, or truly embarrassed and repentant. For that reason, you owe it to your marriage to keep watching her emails and chats and texts and calls, for at least another month, to make sure she didn't just blow smoke to get you off her back.

Now before you say 'not MY wife,' let me tell you I've read dozens and dozens of threads where the H says that and his W is indeed lying to his face and he never knows it. And then goes on for years even, believing her while she cheats.

All I want you to do - as the victim here - is protect yourself. If she is truly repentant and stopping, she will want to fix the marriage, own her mistakes, and move forward. 

Starting an affair often IS a wakeup call, and the person learns their mistake and ends up with a wonderful marriage. But that almost never happens if the betrayed spouse says 'don't leave me! I'll do whatever you want, I'll stop snooping, just don't leave.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LuvMyH said:


> Yes. I have my husband's passwords, but I rarely check them anymore. I think it's about eliminating secrecy in the marriage now and in the future. What happened in the past can't be changed. So, when you get the wake up call of discovering an EA or a PA, I believe fixing the problems to lead to infidelity is way more important than spying and digging up dirt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That only works when BOTH people ARE working on the marriage, and not lying.

Cheaters LIE. Until you know (by monitoring) that the cheating has stopped, you can't move forward. The cheater who is truly sorry for cheating will NOT mind being monitored, for a period, so they can PROVE they have stopped. If they don't allow you to monitor, they are just saying what you want to hear, so they can continue. Or else they have even bigger issues that need to be addressed for a healthy marriage.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

It's been a while since an update and I don't know if anyone is still reading this post.

We reconciled after her "date", and things got a lot better for a while. Now I am concerned her EA was just a symptom of some midlife crisis she is having. Now she says she wants to enjoy life and spend less time with the family. She wants to spent more time on herself and furthering her experiences. She feels she has been in "lockdown" since the birth of our first child 10 years ago.

She says she doesn't want to see other people, and I think I believe her. Her phone and what I see of the internet are clean. No polygraph, of course. Last night she told me I was boring and unexciting. I needed to take a bigger bite out of life. Particularly, she wants to travel to Rome for a week just the two of us. nShe wants to plan it out and dream about it like we used to dream before the kids. Not to throw a wet blanket on her dreams, but we have a 2 1/2 year old adopted daughter that is a real handful, in addition to our three older boys. I told her there is no way I am leaving them with a sitter for a week to fly off to Rome. She said it was cheaper than a divorce.

I think she is having a midlife crisis or going through a period of depression. She has no thought about my feelings, and has been leaving the kids for longer and longer periods of time with the housekeeper. When I get home we talk about how difficult her day was, and I try to catch up on the school assignments, bills, repairs and the other stuff she has been neglecting.

To top off this semi-pitiful tale of woe: I turn 40 this month (and I'm not exactly thrilled about it). She wants to throw a big party and has reserved time with her friends to all attend. I haven't been able to help her plan it at all - I just don't care. I told her last night all I want for my 40th is a happy wife and a good marriage. All the other stuff is just fluff to me. I am tempted to call the whole thing off, but I am worried that once we get through this difficult period in our life, I will regret not marking the ocaission. Am I crazy to not want a party?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, it makes sense - you don't have the life you expected; why celebrate it?

Go ahead and have the party. Make sure YOUR family and friends are there. All you have to know to invite them is date, time, and location.

I'm afraid you are going to have to set some boundaries and consequences; this is not going to get better. Her 'MLC' if you want to call it that merely means SHE means more to herself than YOU do. The only way you will ever mean enough to her is if YOU set boundaries on what's acceptable in YOUR marriage. 

Ignoring kids, no housework, etc...should not be acceptable. And she is going to stop and stop and stop, until she contributes NOTHING to the marriage except sleeping there every night (if you're lucky).

I'm going to tell you that, after having counseled with hundreds of people on forums, it's almost impossible that your wife is like this without AT LEAST having just had an emotional affair, if not a full-blown physical affair. That's just the way it works. Unless you've been a bad husband, which is usually the only other reason women go through so-called MLCs (another word for selfishness), SOMETHING sparked her interest and get her looking over the fence at the greener grass. 

And the comment about you not being exciting enough? I have never seen in all my years a situation where that did NOT mean she had just had wild intimate time with another man, and you NOW pale in comparison. Sorry, but that's statistics. Could you have the exception? Of course. But if you don't, you are setting yourself up for misery.

Think about what you're going to accept in your marriage. Most times, the wayward spouse can be pulled back in, if the betrayed spouse just puts his foot down. In fact, you standing up for yourself and 'taking charge' of the situation is exactly the kind of thing that likely got her looking at other men.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

I don't think I'm a bad husband (but who does?). In the last 2 or three months I have found myself taking on more and more responsibilities while she spends more time with her friends. It is interesting to me that the friends she has been seing the most of don't have great relationships right now. One is separated from her husband and the other is contemplating leaving hers. I told her she was spending an awful lot of time with these two. Her reponse was buzz off - don't tell me who I can spend time with.

I agree I need to put my foot down. Last night I made a stand of sorts. She threatened divorce and moving out and for once I didn't reassure her and beg her to save the marriage. I kept silent even though my heart was bounding out of my chest and I so badly wanted to comfort her and offer her security.

I may be boring, but I'm not unstable. I want the best for my children and that means making this work. I have buried my desires and dreams for the sake of the family because I can't think about that for now. She senses this and needles me about being unhappy with life, boring, and robotic. Gee, who wouldn't want a big blowout on their 40th?!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can live without her. Remember that. The WORST thing you can do is beg her to stay.

For now, any time she threatens divorce or whatever when you start putting your foot down, your stock answer is "Go ahead and move out. But the kids stay here."


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

God I don't want to say that!


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## OneMarriedGuy (Apr 5, 2010)

No not crazy at all. However if you want a happy wife, you are going to have to work to get out of your funk. And while your wife may not be hearing you that the way to give you a happy birthday is not the party, she in her own way may rally be reaching out and trying to please you.

I'm reading (audio CD) the 5 love languages now. It is interesting in that it shows us that sometimes we can both be really reaching out in love and action yet it isn't noticed so much because the other looking to receive in different ways.

So while yes your wife should look to love you in the ways it will mean to you, it may be helpful for you to see and appreciate that she is at least trying! And if you were not just being a bit spiteful in your story telling and she really is only inviting her friends - then invite all yours - and don't even let her know.

In the end improve your communication and understanding of each other and you can be in love more than ever before.

OH and 40 doesn't have to be old - not if you are not old in your mind. If you are - then I'd suggest changing that  A good place to start may be having fun doing the things you did when you were twenty again.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

Scalpel - you've made several interesting statements throughout your thread that for some reason no one has taken you up on.

For example, in your first post, you wrote:



> ... I think we can survive this, but I don't know where to start. I am not ready to talk about her emotional needs and how bad I have been at meeting them. I don't think it's true. I am a reasonable man, but I have some pride. She cheated, and I get to talk it out endlessly? What a deal.


Do you know why affairs start?

You argue that this is a Mid Life Crisis - maybe. But it is also very likely something else entirely. Either way, you are involved.

I'm calling you out on this one: "... I am not ready to talk about her emotional needs and how bad I have been at meeting them. I don't think it's true...."

Really? What's your wife's opinion - or are you going to argue that her input is meaningless and that your opinion is the standard by which 'how things are' in your marriage are measured? (By the way - how's that working out for you?)

So - "...I am a reasonable man, but I have some pride. She cheated, and I get to talk it out endlessly? What a deal..."

What do pride and being reasonable have to do with one another - do they cancel each other out? You won't consider the possibility that your wife has been trying to express to you things that are going wrong. Will you allow your pride to override your reasonable-ness? Will you allow your pride to be the more important thing when faced with a choice of it or her?

What is this 'talk it out endlessly'? I've never heard of anyone talking about emotional needs endlessly. My guess is that those people need a bit of counseling about OCD or some other strange disorder! 

I've read your thread. And I see your wife trying to make up to you for her affair. I also see you refusing to back down from what I can only assume is a position of acquired power - you messed up! Now I've got you!" 

Look, it's quite simple. Your wife considered - and then tried out - a secret 'tryst'. You caught her and confronted her. She fessed up. You both agree that it was an affair. She was contrite and said she was ashamed.

The advice you received - that she be transparent with you - allow you all passwords, emails, phone records, etc., (which, by the way - should be the NORM for married folk) - is good.

Has she done so?

So now...what have you done to make your marriage affair-resistant? It seems to me that all you've done is push her away - so much so that she is now wanting to leave you altogether!

You WON'T do the work necessary to fix your marriage because of your pride? Affairs START because there is much missing at home. Stuff that the Disloyal Spouse thinks they will get elsewhere. And you won't take the time to learn what it was that created this environment - because of what, a belief in your own perfection? 

Yes, an affair is the WRONG way to address problems. But the logic of that fact does not negate the reality that the PROBLEMS exist, even if the WRONG means was used to fix them! Until you get past your innate sense of self pity, and pride, and get into fixing the hole you are digging deeper and deeper - you will lose your wife and marriage.

It's quite simple. I see you wallowing in self pity, all depressed and stuff because you were so perfect in your marriage and yet your wife chose (out of the the vindictive hatred she has for you) to have an affair - and not only that, she conveniently arranged for you to discover it so that your pain would be all the more increased!

She's checking out of the marriage? No kidding! Seems to me you have as well! You want her to fix this thing, while you sit back and take and take and take? Guess what. You are setting her up for a MAJOR affair. Someone that will take her seriously (she thinks.)

Here's the kicker: You claim (in your own words) "...I want the best for my children and that means making this work...."

So what are you going to do to make it work? Think it will all by itself?

Those emotional needs questionnaire, the love buster questionnaire - those are the tools you need to make it work. You MUST communicate - that 'endless' talk (that usually only take a few 'endless' hours. And then, commitment to working on the things that have been lacking. On BOTH of your parts.

So why couldn't you take that trip to Rome? Couldn't afford the babysitter? Your wife was right - it's a LOT cheaper than a divorce. But maybe that divorce is what you want - as long as SHE files it and you get to be the victim?

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Now playing: Sting - Englishman in New York
via FoxyTunes


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ETA that tanelorn is correct, in that you have to look at yourself. You can't stop her from cheating, if you're not fixing the issues YOU bring that helped her get there.

The point is, you have a wife who MAY decide she doesn't want you. It is heading that way. Many women lose respect for their husband, as the husband matures, becomes more responsible, takes over housework so she can play around, and says nothing. 

It's sick to say it, but IMO women often need that 'excitement' that probably harkens back to the caveman days when one man would club the other man and drag the girl back to his own cave.

So...the nicer you get, in an effort to please her, keep her from leaving, let her do whatever she wants...the more she hates you for it. She NEEDS you to say STOP IT, I WON'T STAND FOR IT ANY MORE. Nicely, of course. 

The bottom line is she is out there hunting for excitement. You don't 'do it' for her any more. To think that she won't cheat on you, at this point, is dangerous, because you are liable to be left out in the cold. Many women who find these 'dangerous' men decide to replace their husband and move the new guy in for her 'new' family. I'm not saying your wife will go that far. I just want you to keep your eyes open. 

I'm also not saying that she is a bad person. Most women who go down this path do it tiny thought or action by tiny thought, not realizing the slippery slope they are on. Talking to a male neighbor, going out with girlfriends who are having trouble so they get your wife talking about HER troubles to the point that they convince her she needs to divorce you, going to clubs and getting drunk, talking to a coworker who sees an easy lay and pursues it by listening to her 'marriage troubles' and wanting to help her...none of these seem bad. Until she takes the next step. Where she doesn't tell you about this phone call, or that picture he asks for and she sends, or the innocent lunch that leads to more lunches that lead to lunch at a hotel that leads to lunch in the room...

It IS a slippery slope. And most women who end up on it had NO intention of ever cheating. But men on the prowl are VERY good at taking it one little bitty step at a time, so she doesn't get scared. It's called grooming.

Once she start experiencing the highs she gets from sneaking, the chemicals that flow through her body - the same chemicals the two of you felt when you were dating and that biologically only last 2 or 3 years, the compliments he pays her that you no longer do cos you're too busy raising the family and doing the housework she quit doing...she doesn't want to go back.

Guess what the next thing that typically comes out of a wife's mouth, once she's gone that far?

To you: "You're not exciting enough."

Of course you're not. You're REAL. That man is a FANTASY. But she's too far in to see it; it's called an affair 'fog' for a reason.

Please be careful.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tanelornpete said:


> So why couldn't you take that trip to Rome? Couldn't afford the babysitter? Your wife was right - it's a LOT cheaper than a divorce. But maybe that divorce is what you want - as long as SHE files it and you get to be the victim?


Yeah, that raised my eyebrows too. Instead of saying "Wow, that would be a great way to become closer!" you said "Not if I have anything to say about it." 

Great way to shut her down.

Make sure you are doing your Plan A (making yourself as loveable and desirable as possible) while keeping an eye on her actions.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

I appreciate everyone's very thoughtful comments and am very grateful for this forum. 

In regards to Tanelornpete's comments that I don't want to work on my marriage: much of what was quoted was written a few weeks back when I had been blindsided by her actions. I was stunned - and now I am trying to constructively listen to her. I don't think they reflect my current state of mind.

The comments are a bit schizophrenic however. Some say I am to blame for her unhappiness and her affair was simply a cry for help. Baloney, I say. I keep myself up, I am attentive and supportive. Make myself "lovable" ?- I did get new glasses if that helps. She is the one losing her grip. I am there to help, but when do I stand up for myself? After her next affair?!!

The other side says I have been too supportive and need to show her what she has to lose - kick her out and cancel her cards, etc. Hard to follow as well, since I think there would be too much a loss of respect to recover. I would hate to treat her that way.

Oh and Rome? Time and again I have done these things with her trying to make her happy and they don't work. Moving across the country, upgrading houses and cars, adopting a girl (who I love by the way), and each time she is back to being dissatisfied with the life we have built. I feel like she wants to throw it all away. Going on vacation isn't a big deal, but there are emotional costs on our family that she simply ignores. When we went to Taiwan for the adoption my wife was beside herself about the children we left behind. Now she could care less. I don't need a fancy vacation to reconnect with my wife and I doubt she needs one either. If she does, than she has changed a lot from all the years I have known her.

Please don't think I am shooting down everyone's comments - it's been a tough day for me. I do appreciate the comments.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> In regards to Tanelornpete's comments that I don't want to work on my marriage: much of what was quoted was written a few weeks back when I had been blindsided by her actions. I was stunned - and now I am trying to constructively listen to her. I don't think they reflect my current state of mind.


I hope it doesn't reflect your current state of mind, but your comments following seem to belie that statement! 



> The comments are a bit schizophrenic however.


This is at least poetically true - comments don't have mental disorders... But you do get a lot of conflicting comments on this board. People are free to express themselves. Not all coincide. _It's up to you to research, compare, and discern._



> Some say I am to blame for her unhappiness and her affair was simply a cry for help. Baloney, I say. I keep myself up, I am attentive and supportive.


I haven't seen any comments that claimed you were to blame for her unhappiness, nor that the affair was a cry for help - I'll probably have to go back and look through them. Regardless, I stay true to my own principles, and the experience I have in helping people repair and improve their marriages. I'm assuming, however, that you neglected to read the link I provided, which is unfortunate, because it is a very accurate depiction of how affairs come into being. Cries for help? Not likely, but it's a close proximation.



> Make myself "lovable" ?- I did get new glasses if that helps. She is the one losing her grip. I am there to help, but when do I stand up for myself? After her next affair?!!


Standing up for yourself is one thing. Using her affair as a meal ticket for abuse, self-pity, neglect and other forms of harsh treatment is absolutely wrong. You will not and cannot help her (if that was the intent of your statement) by ignoring her and assigning concepts, needs and wants to her instead. Your statement points out something that is a fairly common misconception, however. Here's an example:

Bob believes he shows his wife how much he loves her by regularly maintaining her car, changing the oil, belts, tires, etc. regularly. He believes that he shows his wife how much he loves her by cleaning the house on the weekends, and by giving her shopping money out of his own paycheck every month.

Susan, his wife, however, is completely confounded by his behavior. She wants to go out to dinner regularly, and wants to have deep conversations with him on a regular basis, where he really listens to her. She thinks to herself, "It's awfully nice that he cleans the house on weekends, and keeps the car running! I really appreciate that! But I wish he really loved me! It feels like he never pays any attention to me - and he never wants to go anywhere with me."

She gets more and more withdrawn, and hurt because he just doesn't love her. Bob, on the other hand, is getting angrier and angrier. "I bend over backwards to show her how much I love her! Anyone with their right mind would be able to see how much I show love to her! She's losing her grip!"

Its all because Bob ASSUMES what it is that Susan percieves as declarations of love. And because, while she appreciates what he does, he is not letting her know he loves her. In return, she begins to withdraw, and to do things independently. Eventually they will both give up. She may even stumble across another man who DOES seem to do the things she percives as means of expressing love.​
And the reason? Because they did not communicate to each other what she needed. [Note that I only gave Susan's part- Bob, too has specific ways in which Susan could show him love that she may be missing.]

Baloney, you say. 



> I keep myself up, I am attentive and supportive.


And these, of course, are the things that she has asked you to do to show her how much you love her. I'd just point this out: if she truly DID tell you these were the things she needed from you to show her you loved her, then one of two things are possible: either you fail miserably at providing them, or she has changed in what she perceives. 

And yet you refuse - REFUSE! to find out what she really wants! Baloney, you say. You already know all she needs, you have all the information. I say baloney is going to be your staple protein food once the divorce splits your expenses! The you can have all the baloney you want!



> The other side says I have been too supportive and need to show her what she has to lose - kick her out and cancel her cards, etc. Hard to follow as well, since I think there would be too much a loss of respect to recover. I would hate to treat her that way.


How exactly DO you want to treat her? And.....what respect IS there to lose? Does she respect you now? 



> Oh and Rome? Time and again I have done these things with her trying to make her happy and they don't work. Moving across the country, upgrading houses and cars, adopting a girl (who I love by the way), and each time she is back to being dissatisfied with the life we have built.


There is a very good reason for this - if you stopped to listen for a few minutes! So she wants a vacation! And you give it to her. What do you do for her after that? I get the distinct impression that you beleive this is all she wants - if you give her 'X' she'll shut up and leave you alone. What about OTHER needs? So you supply ONE PARTICULAR need - and neglect EVERYTHING else. Or, as I suspect, you simply do the things that you have ASSIGNED to her as the things she must accept from you as love. 

And you wonder why she wants to do the ONE THING that you are willing to do - over and over. Hey - if I had a strong need for my wife to keep the house clean, AND a need for her to show me strong affection...but she was only willing to clean the house - and I realized that - don't you suppose I'd be rather concentrated on the house - since that is the ONLY token of love I'll get from her?



> I feel like she wants to throw it all away. Going on vacation isn't a big deal, but there are emotional costs on our family that she simply ignores. When we went to Taiwan for the adoption my wife was beside herself about the children we left behind. Now she could care less. I don't need a fancy vacation to reconnect with my wife and I doubt she needs one either.


You are minimizing the affect this affair has had on both of you. Your wife was quite clear. I heard it, filtered through you! She wants some ALONE time with you. Away from it all, just you and her. A second honeymoon. A way to reconmnect - WITHOUT all the stress of normal life - if just for two weeks.



> If she does, than she has changed a lot from all the years I have known her.


So...she's had numerous affairs before? Or is THIS something new? Maybe she HAS changed a bit. Maybe she has changed only a little. But let me ask you this. When you were first married....was she OK with simply getting home from the wedding ceremony and setting in to do the dishes and watch some TV? Or did she want to connect with you in some other, more personal and private means - AWAY from normal life. You REALLY think she has changed? Perhaps you have grown so immobile and uncaring that you don't even see her any more!

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Now playing: David Arkenstone - The Palantir
via FoxyTunes

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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Scalpel~

You may not like this fact, but I'm a female and I'm talking to you from the point of view of a former disloyal spouse. There were a couple things you said here that raised some fairly serious red flags for me. May I go over them with you?

You wrote: 


> ... Now I am concerned her EA was just a symptom of some midlife crisis she is having. Now she says she wants to enjoy life and spend less time with the family. She wants to spent more time on herself and furthering her experiences. She feels she has been in "lockdown" since the birth of our first child 10 years ago.


I myself am a lady in my mid-40's so I'm no kid, and I can tell you this most likely is not a "midlife crisis." This is a portion of her letting you know what she wants in life and what it was maybe about the EA that kind of caught her attention. Since the birth of the child 10 years ago, she's been lonely and stuck in a routine, and now she realizes that just being someone's mom is not enough for her. The EA made her realize that life is not a boring, routine, rut being forced to do stuff she finds tiring--she can be lively, fun, interesting, and enjoy her day! So she's telling you (without hitting you with a 2x4) that just sitting at home being X's mom and your wife has become complacent and she's not dead yet. So rather than tell her "Too bad. You cheated and now you have to sit at home" (which is a recipe for another affair), why not make the effort to find something fun that the two of you can do together? Like a hobby or a shared interest! Something new and a little exciting? This is a plus in many ways: a) you grow closer because you do it together, b) it meets her need for some fun, and c) you show her you're willing to make some effort for her. 



> ... Last night she told me I was boring and unexciting. I needed to take a bigger bite out of life. Particularly, she wants to travel to Rome for a week just the two of us. She wants to plan it out and dream about it like we used to dream before the kids. Not to throw a wet blanket on her dreams, but we have a 2 1/2 year old adopted daughter that is a real handful, in addition to our three older boys. I told her there is no way I am leaving them with a sitter for a week to fly off to Rome. She said it was cheaper than a divorce.


Okay NOTE TO SELF here scapel: this was a MAJOR opportunity to add love kindlers and you blew it. See above where I told you she realizes now that she doesn't have to live feeling disregarded and overlooked? Well she told you POINT BLANK that she needs a little more and she even went so far as to indicate that she'd like you to be part of her life and part of the fun of it! She wasn't saying she wanted some other guy--she wants you! And you said, "No thanks, Toots. It's back into lock up for you." I'm telling you this is a recipe for another affair! You can choose to listen or not, but just be aware that your decision to ignore this could be really costly!

Now, after my EA, at the beginning I felt really lonely, pretty sad, fairly plain and LONGED to have a second honeymoon kind of getaway with my Dear Hubby. My thought at the time was to spend some exclusive time, just the two of us--reconnecting, maybe remembering how we used to connect "in the old days". And do you see how she says she wants to daydream and plan each bit of it? I bet she wouldn't even care if the trip was "shortish" if you two could daydream about travel like you used to! I'm telling ya buddy, she is pretty much CRYING OUT that she wants to reconnect with you, have fun with you, be your lover again...and you keep telling her no.

So if finances really, honestly don't allow for a trip to Italy (hey..that happens), at least take the time to daydream with her--buy an Italian map--find all the little places you'd go--and then steal her away for a surprise trip to "Rome, Wisconsin" or whatever little Rome you have in your state. Does that make sense? 



> I think she is having a midlife crisis or going through a period of depression. She has no thought about my feelings, and has been leaving the kids for longer and longer periods of time with the housekeeper. When I get home we talk about how difficult her day was, and I try to catch up on the school assignments, bills, repairs and the other stuff she has been neglecting.


She has no thought about your feelings because for a long time now she's felt locked down, disregarded and overlooked. Hmmm...sounds like SHE has felt like you have no thought for her feelings. So granted it wasn't the wisest choice to have an affair, but she got your attention, right? And she's trying to tell you how difficult her day is and are you listening and empathizing and being interested and supportive? I have a newsflash for you--if you're not listening and interested, there are PLENTY of other men who will take the time to listen to her and not disregard her and overlook her. I would suggest that if you'd like her to have thought for YOUR feelings, then when she tells you how difficult her day was, YOU have thought for her feelings! Don't be thinking about the bills and homework, etc at that moment--think of HER! Lead by example, and show her that you are no longer going to neglect her--with your actions (of paying attention and listening) show her that you are thoughtful of her feelings. 



> To top off this semi-pitiful tale of woe: I turn 40 this month (and I'm not exactly thrilled about it). She wants to throw a big party and has reserved time with her friends to all attend. I haven't been able to help her plan it at all - I just don't care. I told her last night all I want for my 40th is a happy wife and a good marriage. All the other stuff is just fluff to me. I am tempted to call the whole thing off, but I am worried that once we get through this difficult period in our life, I will regret not marking the occasion. Am I crazy to not want a party?


May I suggest a possible compromise? What about a private party in ROME!? Or maybe suggesting a private party just you two in a secluded, exclusive hotel for the weekend? Take her on a carriage ride downtown or out dancing like you haven't done in forever. This way it's the best of both worlds. 

I hope you take my thoughts seriously because I suspect you are mere moments away from losing your wife, and I don't mean to be grouchy or anything but are you aware how expensive HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU OWN is going to be? Hopefully that's not the only thing that motivates you, but just that alone is quite a lot and it's worth it to make the effort to keep what you've built and provide a stable home for your children.


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## scalpel (Mar 21, 2010)

Wow. Online therapy can be personal and painful. I find myself reacting defensively when I should be trying to change myself to strengthen our marriage. 

Some of the ideas really hit home. We will be taking that vacation - at least planning for it and saving the money for some time in the near future.

She is not in "lockdown" by any means. She has a rich social life, and we spend a lot of quality time with and without the kids. I think part of the problem lies in the fact that I have taken over the responsibility for all of the bills and financial planning for the household. So when she draws up plans for redoing the house, I'm the one that always has to put the brakes on. What makes it worse is the fact that my income has dropped, and some of those dreams are now out of reach (hopefully for the time being). All the smaller trips and smaller renovations seem cheap and second-rate to her. 

I really appreciate the time, wisdom, and hard work that you guys have put into your posts. I now know this is a process that I must go through. You can see my initial frustration with some of my earlier posts. Hopefully I have been set on a path to save our marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why not sit down together and go over the budget every Sunday night?

Or sign up for Financial Peace University and attend the 10 week course together?


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

Affiarcare, and sorry scalpel to highjack for a moment, but thank you for decoding a female's indirect words for us men. That is what is so hard. I look back and can see similar type statements from my w -- but I didn't understand what they meant.

Classic example of the one spouse saying I kept telling you, etc. But it wasn't direct and clear, it was implied and indirect. Some of us are just dense and need things to be clearly stated. If we all had decoder rings communication would be so much easier.

This goes to being a real listener to people. Something I know I'm working on as a person.

Sorry for the interruption. Just had to chime in on this.


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## Tanelornpete (Feb 2, 2010)

> Wow. Online therapy can be personal and painful. I find myself reacting defensively when I should be trying to change myself to strengthen our marriage.


I'm so sorry I came across with a 2x4 - it seemed to me that you are the kind of person who throws up a _massive_ defense when they get really hurt - I wanted to get inside all the landmines and barricades, etc., to talk to the real you. It appears that there are some areas that could use some fine-tuning (at the very least) if not complete restructuring - or some brand new construction...


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