# Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?



## stu1

Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


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## Clay2013

No one wants to be in second place.


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## Machiavelli

Mother Nature has implanted behaviors designed to protect you against raising the children of a more sexually desirable male. When you reconcile, you're working against what nature considers your best interests.


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## In The Dark

I think there are both men and women who struggle with their partner's infidelity. I don't see this as being just a male thing.


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## Healer

Yeah I don't know if it's that men have a harder time - I think the emotional component to the affair is tougher for women and the physical tougher for men.

Regardless, for me anyway, it boils down to this: 

Why would I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who treated me like they were my worst enemy? The one person who I am supposed to be loved by and cherished by and protected by the most treated me more terribly than anyone has in my entire life.

Why would I want to "get over it and move on"? It's seems insane to me.


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## michzz

To be blunt, no man likes to realize that he has put his junk where the fluids of another man still are located.

You ladies who think a quick rinse out suffices, and some of us didn't even get that "nicety", you're mistaken.

It's revolting to contemplate, that is it in a nutshell.


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## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



michzz said:


> To be blunt, no man likes to realize that he has put his junk where the fluids of another man still are located.
> 
> You ladies who think a quick rinse out suffices, and some of us didn't even get that "nicety", you're mistaken.
> 
> It's revolting to contemplate, that is it in a nutshell.


......not sure that's it in a nutshell. But thanks for the frikkin' trigger material.........not!


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## ConanHub

No one ever forgets and if you are calling reconciliation forgiveness, then many women don't forgive either.
There is another thread that covers lots on this subject.

I don't know statistics but I see a lot of men trying to R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

michzz said:


> To be blunt, no man likes to realize that he has put his junk where the fluids of another man still are located.
> 
> You ladies who think a quick rinse out suffices, and some of us didn't even get that "nicety", you're mistaken.
> 
> It's revolting to contemplate, that is it in a nutshell.


Couldn't agree more!!! Grotesque! !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DavidWYoung

I work hard, I blow off women that come on to me, I plan for the future, vacations, new house, new car......Then I hear " It was just sex, get over it, here, I will take a shower and maybe" you will get lucky!"

Women, do you really think that I want anything to do with the POS that you are? Just my 2 cents David


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## vellocet

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


Do you think you can forget the vision of your wife sliding up and down on another man's c**k moaning in pleasure? Her sucking him off? You get the picture.

Never will a man be able to forget. Forgive? That depends on the man and I won't best a man for doing either. But for me, the relationship is then over.


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## Philat

Forgive, maybe. Forget, not so much.


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## Healer

Philat said:


> Forgive, maybe. Forget, not so much.


Forgive? Forget? Fuggetaboutit!


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## yeah_right

It's not just men. Believe me, if my H had a PA vs. a EA...I would currently be divorced. It's been hard enough to R as is.

Unfortunately, I think many women stay with cheaters because they are afraid (of being alone, of being unable to care for kids financially, afraid of abuse, etc.). Men don't have that same dynamic.


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## Lon

I don't think this is a gender thing, nor can I speak for other men or women that are betrayed spouses. But for myself the painful thing to accept was the realization that my unwavering loyalty was not actually mutual.

I don't think emotionally dealing with betrayal has anything to do being able to forgive and forget, that would mean that you never expected or gave any loyalty in the first place.


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## MattMatt

I forgave my wife. And as for the sex part of her affair? I was able to suppress that for years, not thinking about it.


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## Lovemytruck

Maybe part of it has to do with the level of sacrifice given by the man. Many of us were in the "giver" category in regards to our marriage. When you have given all that you possibly can offer, she treats you as "plan b" and blames your for her betrayal it doesn't leave you with a feeling that she is worth it. This causes very deep resentment in men.

I also agree with the other reasons given.

The part about being admired and special is gone.

Sex is a trigger. It is easier to find a new woman that won't/has not hurt you.

Men that cheat are less attached to the AP, maybe this makes it easier for BWs to R.

Just my thoughts.


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## Healer

Lovemytruck said:


> Maybe part of it has to do with the level of sacrifice given by the man. Many of us were in the "giver" category in regards to our marriage. When you have given all that you possibly can offer, she treats you as "plan b" and blames your for her betrayal it doesn't leave you with a feeling that she is worth it. This causes very deep resentment in men.


Exactly. I gave up myself and the things I love to appease my stbxw. She constantly accused me of cheating our entire 15 years together. I stopped playing music, stopped having friends, stopped living really, to put her at ease (which of course didn't work anyway). And SHE cheated.


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## PhillyGuy13

Stu1 I'm interested in why are you asking the question? Are you male, female? Betrayed? Wayward?

My money is on wayward wife, but I may be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RockerMama

im sorry so many of you got hurt here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Sure....why not? Silly f^cking me, I should have offered the OM my wallet and use of my car too. What in the hell was I thinking getting pissed about that little intrusion? Thanks for setting me straight.


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## xakulax

Machiavelli said:


> Mother Nature has implanted behaviors designed to protect you against raising the children of a more sexually desirable male. When you reconcile, you're working against what nature considers your best interests.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Machiavelli

Healer said:


> Exactly. I gave up myself and the things I love to appease my stbxw. She constantly accused me of cheating our entire 15 years together. I stopped playing music, stopped having friends, stopped living really, to put her at ease (which of course didn't work anyway). And SHE cheated.


That is the classic conversion process from alpha rock star to beta/delta/gamma worker drone. She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to ward off female competition, then she goes after an Alpha for the sex thrill.


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## Philat

MattMatt said:


> I forgave my wife. And as for the sex part of her affair? I was able to suppress that for years, not thinking about it.


Sorry, Matt, but I can't hold it in any more. WHY did your W have an A that she planned and told you about ahead of time?


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## Healer

Machiavelli said:


> That is the classic conversion process from alpha rock star to beta/delta/gamma worker drone. She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to ward off female competition, then she goes after an Alpha for the sex thrill.


Exactly. It's f*cking pathological. You summed it up there _perfectly_.


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## Nostromo

I think a part of it for males is there is an added stigma [completely wrong and unfair btw] that when a man gets cheated on there must be something wrong with him or that he failed in some way to protect his family. You hear people saying things like "he can't even keep his wife satisfied." or "he must of done something to make her do that." Where as women generally get sympathy and "you deserve better that that girl." supportive network. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule.


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## couple

it's very difficult for both men and women and each has it's own special issues. but some of these issues are different. for men, we deal with the harsh realities that someone else penetrated into our wife's body. Some may have felt discomfort with the more graphic descriptions on this thread but that's the reality. You can hide behind euphemisms like "she slept with someone" but somehow that doesn't describe what some other guy did to the one you love(d).


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## 6301

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


 Maybe they expect their wives to have the same standards they have. 

In reality, a woman can go out almost every night of the week and pick up a guy if she wanted to, whereas a guy is going to strike out more often than not.

I'm not saying that the guys she picks up is anything to write home about but if she's interested in finding a lonely penis and that's it, she's wont have a hard time at all. Guys on the other hand aren't as lucky.


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## Rugs

The thing that surprises me most here is the amount of men willing or wanting to reconcile.

I do not agree with the suggestion that men are any different than women.


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## Confundido

The main reason I am not able to take my wife is because I know longer see her in the same way as I used to. Before her affair my wife was the closest to perfect in my eyes and one could compare. Now I see she isn’t what I thought she was.


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## Chaparral

Rugs said:


> The thing that surprises me most here is the amount of men willing or wanting to reconcile.
> 
> I do not agree with the suggestion that men are any different than women.


The likely hood that a couple will reconcile if the husband cheats is supposed to be 45%. If the wife cheats the chance they will reconcile is only about 20-25% . The question is that because of the cheater or the one cheated on.


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## TheFlood117

I've forgiven my ex WW. She's got a spot on the rotation. She's not starting but she's a good 6th man. Or 7, 8. Well... She's on the team at least.


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## jim123

Women are emotional cheaters. Often they distance from the H long before the affair begins. The H is not getting sex or affection. Everything is the H's fault.

When the A is discovered it is often the last straw for most men. They have put up with a lot for a long period of time. There is so much damage at this point, it is easier to move on.

The A is the final insult.


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## calvin

Two years out and I can say now I've forgiven my wife now.Very deep EA with
ex hs bf,they never had sex back then,that's why I think he tried so hard.
Maybe because it didn't go physical is why I finally can forgive,they did meet up in
public though.
He was nothing but a facad of what he said he was,he only had one thing in mind.
My wife (CSS) was honest about everything,the TT actually lasted about a half an hour.
What she continues to do for us is outstanding.
So yeah,I can forgive as a man,it can still hurt but she is there for me.
People can fvck up,some deserve forginess,some don't.
Depends on the WS mostly,I see some really WW here who give it everything they
got to make it right.
Some WS's need to learn to forgive themselves also.
They are worth it.
Ah hell...its complicated. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manticore

Chaparral said:


> The likely hood that a couple will reconcile if the husband cheats is supposed to be 45%. If the wife cheats the chance they will reconcile is only about 20-25% . The question is that because of the cheater or the one cheated on.


I think % is to high for men, does % also includes emotional affairs?

honestly speaking of all the men that I know in real life that have been betrayed, just one remain married.


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## Healer

TheFlood117 said:


> I've forgiven my ex WW. She's got a spot on the rotation. She's not starting but she's a good 6th man. Or 7, 8. Well... She's on the team at least.


Ugh. I wouldn't **** my stbxww if she were the last woman on earth. And she's hot (superficially).


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## YupItsMe

Oh so all men are the same? Get real please.


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## TheFlood117

Healer said:


> Ugh. I wouldn't **** my stbxww if she were the last woman on earth. And she's hot (superficially).


Your treatment by you WW was pretty bad. I don't blame you. 

Mine was just stupid and went full bimbo. She's not really nasty or spiteful, she's much, much nicer and way less pessimistic and cold than me. Plus she looks like Elisha Cuthbert and is amazing in the sack. so... I take what I want. And she's down with it. There's still love between us, it's just kinda strange and bit 'odd' right now. She's alright. 

I am still very, very angry with her tho. It's mostly angry rough sex. But she is a great mom and it hasn't interfered with neither of our co-parent dynamic so it's okay. I'm sure there's a blow up moment coming, especially if she finds out some things ole' floods done or who ole' floods done, lol.


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## The Middleman

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


Because I have respect for myself. Why should I forgive and forget?


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## hambone

I think it has to do with the fact that the average man can separate love and sex. Women tend to equate love and sex.

I've heard females frequently say that they could never make love to someone they didn't love. Is that true? Maybe not but by saying it, they have convinced men that it's true. 

A wayward man can say, "It was just sex... she means nothing to me". 

IMO, women can't make that argument as convincingly as men do...


Plus, many women are more logical about this situation than men are. Many women will weight the situation out... "He's the father of my children... a good provider etc. etc. etc."

Men tend to be more emotional.. they go straight to divorce.

Now look... I'm making generalities.. I'm sure there are many exceptions to these generalities.


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## daveca

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


In all likelihood the wife has/had refused her husband sex or didn't offer it as often as the husband wanted. That means she gave away what her husband was trying to get. She chose the man over her husband.

When most men have affairs they aren't getting all the sex they want at home so they are not choosing the mistress over the wife. They are not denying their wife sex and then giving it to someone else. That's the difference. 

Also, many women require an emotional bond with the guy before having sex. Not always but more often than not. That means she likes the guy. 

In the case of men there are far fewer emotional bonds. Again, the man is not choosing the mistress over the wife. There is nothing "personal" about it. He just wants sex and in most cases the husband would prefer the wife. 

So when it comes to forgiveness it's not just about the act. The husband realizes his wife doesn't really like him so how can one forgive the way a person feels? How can one regret or apologize for how they felt? 

In other words when a wife has an affair (generally speaking) reconciliation involves the wife having to change her feelings towards her husband. That isn't necessary when the husband has an affair. He loves his wife and never stopped loving her. The sex had nothing to do with his feelings towards his wife. 

So, how does one apologize for their feelings? It's like saying, "OK, I will start loving you now." Or "I will work on loving you." 

Who would want to be in a relationship like that? Thus no reconciliation. 

I want to stress I'm speaking in a general sense. No doubt there are women who just like ****, plain and simple.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



hambone said:


> I think it has to do with the fact that the average man can separate love and sex. Women tend to equate love and sex.
> 
> I've heard females frequently say that they could never make love to someone they didn't love. Is that true? Maybe not but by saying it, they have convinced men that it's true.
> 
> A wayward man can say, "It was just sex... she means nothing to me".
> 
> IMO, women can't make that argument as convincingly as men do...
> 
> 
> Plus, many women are more logical about this situation than men are. Many women will weight the situation out... "He's the father of my children... a good provider etc. etc. etc."
> 
> Men tend to be more emotional.. they go straight to divorce.
> 
> Now look... I'm making generalities.. I'm sure there are many exceptions to these generalities.


Strange, i see this as the old cliche, but from what I've realized since is that, in my world at least, it is the exact opposite on every single bullet point.

Most women i have gotten to know (except for a few with impossibly high standards that have gone decades without ever so much as a date or even a kiss) have all had ONS and casual sex and easily separate sex from love, whereas most of my guy friends are like me and need both simultaneously or we just can't get it up.

All of the people in my life who I've learned had affairs were women (except for my ex's dad) and all (but my ex's dad) divorced after the BH's pleaded and begged, but it was the WW's wanting the divorce.

But i think we are from within different generations Hambone.


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## larry.gray

daveca said:


> In all likelihood the wife has/had refused her husband sex or didn't offer it as often as the husband wanted. That means she gave away what her husband was trying to get. She chose the man over her husband.


Oh and throw in how hard the chase was and acts denied to the husband in some cases.

The husband may have taken a long time to get his wife in the sack. She played hard to get for him. And then a guy buys her a drink in a bar, talks her up and beds her within hours or days.

The wife may have refused things like swallowing or anal, only to give that to the OM.

Both are hard to get over.


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## Horizon

jim123 said:


> Women are emotional cheaters. Often they distance from the H long before the affair begins. The H is not getting sex or affection. Everything is the H's fault.
> 
> When the A is discovered it is often the last straw for most men. They have put up with a lot for a long period of time. There is so much damage at this point, it is easier to move on.
> 
> The A is the final insult.


I think you are close to the mark jim123. My WS has clung to the "you cheated on me" line because I shut her out emotionally. That was my infidelity - emotional betrayal. Great excuse / reason to cheat huh? I have given up trying to get through to her that we both did it to each other, but that we were still under the same roof, raising a family together. She will not concede that she kept me on an emotional and physical drip feed, that she also contributed to the long slow death of our relationship. She will not accept responsibility for cheating; in her opinion it was justified. The last straw alright.


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## Simon Phoenix

Maybe it's because she relegated you to being a Plan B, second choice option? Or perhaps she denied you sex during the first few months into the relationship (under the infamous 'I have to get to know you better' line), using every excuse in the book to avoid sex with you while married, only to quickly give it up to some random dude? Perhaps it's because she treated sex with you as some chore (see: wifely duties) with little/no passion or initiation on her part, only to turn into some tramp you'd see on (insert adult web site here)? Should I go on? 

Once a man receives the genital 'thumbs down' from wifey, it's done for. Very few men care for putting his future on the line with someone who only regards him as a good earner and daycare provider for her kids. The thought of her performing sex acts on another man, allowing him to enter her, then finish off in her or otherwise UNPROTECTED is just too much for us to think about without finding ourselves serving jail time. So we slowly plot and plan an exit strategy. With kids involved, this takes a lot more time depending on their age. But make no mistake; once she catches one from another man, the marriage as we know it is DEAD. DOA...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Cro-Magnon

Women cannot be deceived into raising a child that is not their own.


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## TopsyTurvy5

I find it interesting how there are very few women commenting on this thread. Hmmm.....


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## PhillyGuy13

She posted the question, then left the building. Wayward wife, got caught, now angry her husband wants nothing to do with her. Who knows what horrors she put the man through.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horizon

2ntnuf said:


> Or hearing it in real time with the moans and everything.


And swallowed his seed 3 times if either of them can be believed; at least 3 times then. What does it matter? "I almost gagged" she said when we had our first recommended "10 minute free for all". I snapped when I heard that - and that was the death of our official reconciliation talks right there and then. Perfect - another reason to kill off communication and avoid - "you get too angry".


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## JustGrinding

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy . . .


This is a faulty judgment based on pure projection. Beyond the initial emotional devastation a man feels after his wife’s betrayal, men tend to revert to their more natural condition of applying logic. It’s in this application that a WW has little chance of recovery. As I’ve stated in earlier posts: there may be many emotionally-based reasons to stay with an adulterous woman, but anyone would be hard-pressed to find a logical reason to stay. Men don’t have a “much harder time emotionally,” they struggle with finding a single sensible reason to remain with such a person.




stu1 said:


> . . . and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


Right. The woeful wilderness cry of the deeply-wounded betrayer: “. . . let it go and just move on and forgive and forget.”

This is evidence of the extremely selfish mindset of an adulterer. Somehow, they’re entitled to forgiveness and a clean slate. Always trying to manipulate and control the betrayed spouse, even after the adultery is exposed: “Forgive me!”

Why couldn’t you just keep your effing panties off POSOM’s floor to begin with? In that case, forgiveness would be moot, would it not?

See what I did there? Your panties = your control. My forgiveness = not under your control.


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## ironman

JG summed it up nicely.

A "self-respecting" man simply will not tolerate a cheating wife because being cheated on is an extreme act of "disrespect".

Men value being "respected" more than women in my opinion. Not saying women don't want to be respected, not at all .. just saying men place a higher value on it. When you take that away .. well then you get cheating wives that don't keep their families together very often.


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## russell28

It is a gender thing, a male human does want to make sure they are the ones that donate sperm to a mate, and the only ones.. They will fight to the death to keep another male off of what they consider their female, and when they find out that the female allowed it, it's devastating to the male.. So it becomes a larger challenge for a male than a woman, a woman will always know the baby is hers..


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## Stonewall

To forgive is Devine.

To forget is fools play!


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## TryingToRecover

In The Dark said:


> I think there are both men and women who struggle with their partner's infidelity. I don't see this as being just a male thing.


I agree. WS and I are a little over 1.5 years out since dDay and I'm struggling more now about whether or not to stay together, struggling more now than I have in some time. I just don't know if I can do it. I am bothered by the emotional AND physical aspects of the affair. Someone else mentioned betrayed wives may sometimes not leave due to being afraid of abuse, afraid to be alone, financial reasons, etc. Luckily I don't have any of those issues to contend with and our three children are grown and on their own. My ego is struggling with the idea I could be Plan B, and overall I feel foolish for not kicking him to the curb when this all went down. WS had been doing the work but my ego, doubts, and paranoia about it happening again is starting to win out. At least for now. I love him, it's hard to walk away from 20+ years, but doubts are doubts. My paranoia about it ever happening again has really been an issue lately. This whole thing truly is a s*it sandwich. My attitude also sucks right now....WS got to go out and have his "fun" and I get the fallout. Of course, it's not that cut and dried unless I'm feeling p*ssed off about it..... and I certainly feel a lot of that sometimes.

Sorry for rambling....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TryingToRecover

TryingToRecover said:


> I agree. WS and I are a little over 1.5 years out since dDay and I'm struggling more now about whether or not to stay together, struggling more now than I have in some time. I just don't know if I can do it. I am bothered by the emotional AND physical aspects of the affair. Someone else mentioned betrayed wives may sometimes not leave due to being afraid of abuse, afraid to be alone, financial reasons, etc. Luckily I don't have any of those issues to contend with and our three children are grown and on their own. My ego is struggling with the idea I could be Plan B, and overall I feel foolish for not kicking him to the curb when this all went down. WS had been doing the work but my ego, doubts, and paranoia about it happening again is starting to win out. At least for now. I love him, it's hard to walk away from 20+ years, but doubts are doubts. My paranoia about it ever happening again has really been an issue lately. This whole thing truly is a s*it sandwich. My attitude also sucks right now....WS got to go out and have his "fun" and I get the fallout. Of course, it's not that cut and dried unless I'm feeling p*ssed off about it..... and I certainly feel a lot of that sometimes.
> 
> Sorry for rambling....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_

Typo, meant to say WS HAS been doing the work. Not past tense.


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## Aerith

daveca said:


> Again, the man is not choosing the mistress over the wife. There is nothing "personal" about it. He just wants sex...


It's just sex for him and love for her...It's even worse  

If that's the case, I would seriously question WW ability to evaluate the reality...


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## Aerith

Machiavelli said:


> That is the classic conversion process from alpha rock star to beta/delta/gamma worker drone. She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to ward off female competition, then she goes after an Alpha for the sex thrill.


Competition ended at the moment they said "I do".


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## roostr

If you read the numerous posts regarding adultery you will see that its not a gender specific issue. Plenty of women here are outraged by this also. It all depends on the individuals personality and emotions.


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## Machiavelli

larry.gray said:


> The wife may have refused things like swallowing or anal, only to give that to the OM.


No wife wants her H to thinks she's a slvt, so all that is reserved for the Prince Charming OM who awakens her Sleeping Inner Slvt.


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## Dad&Hubby

Why do I need to forget. Forgive...sure...for myself so I can move forward and co-parent without drama (from my side anyway).

But forgetting is over rated. If you forget everything bad that happens to you, you'll never learn from experience.

My ex-W cheated. Relationship was over anyway but that just cemented the decision when she asked for us to try again.

My wife now and myself both have said, if either cheats...instant divorce. For ME (and her) cheating is the one thing that kills a marriage.


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## Jellybeans

I don't think anyone "forgets" an infidelity. Unless their mind gets completely erased.


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## vellocet

hambone said:


> Plus, many women are more logical about this situation than men are. Many women will weight the situation out... "He's the father of my children... a good provider etc. etc. etc."
> 
> Men tend to be more emotional.. they go straight to divorce.


I could say going straight to divorce is being more logical. But it all depends on the person.

It was logical for me to go straight to divorce because every time I looked at her I saw a giant C stamped on her forehead and wanted to be as far away from her as possible. There was no logic in staying with someone that repulsed me after she cheated.


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## learning to love myself

hambone said:


> I think it has to do with the fact that the average man can separate love and sex. Women tend to equate love and sex.
> 
> I've heard females frequently say that they could never make love to someone they didn't love. Is that true? Maybe not but by saying it, they have convinced men that it's true.
> 
> A wayward man can say, "It was just sex... she means nothing to me".
> 
> IMO, women can't make that argument as convincingly as men do...
> 
> 
> Plus, many women are more logical about this situation than men are. Many women will weight the situation out... "He's the father of my children... a good provider etc. etc. etc."
> 
> Men tend to be more emotional.. they go straight to divorce.
> 
> Now look... I'm making generalities.. I'm sure there are many exceptions to these generalities.


Not true for me, I went and looked for sex on an adult website. I did a casual hook up and emailed the man after and said thanks, no need to hook up again.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way justifying it and it was the most selfish thing I have ever done. I would of left the marriage as he was not going to change and I was miserable.

My husband didn't want sex with me (he denies this) however, when you throw yourself at your man day in and day out and are met with rejection for a year at a time you start to wonder what is wrong.

We are in reconciliation and has been hard, I believe the only reason he has given me a second chance is I have forgiven him and stood by him for things he has done in the past, that he wont equate to part of the reason we ended up in this mess.

Knowing my husband very well, he fights with the fact that he stayed with me, he doesn't allow disrespect in any part of his life and has removed immediate family members for so much less.


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## Healer

learning to love myself said:


> I would of left the marriage as he was not going to change and I was miserable.


You would have the left marriage...but didn't and cheated instead? I don't understand the post. You would have left the marriage...if what?


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## learning to love myself

Healer said:


> You would have the left marriage...but didn't and cheated instead? I don't understand the post. You would have left the marriage...if what?


apologies, I meant to say I should have left the marriage instead of cheating.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



Jellybeans said:


> I don't think anyone "forgets" an infidelity. Unless their mind gets completely erased.


....I sometimes wish I would get a serious head injury on a construction site ...that would induce memory loss type brain damage.


.....yes ...I am serious.


----------



## illwill

I forgave on dday. I also kicked her out. And divorced her.

This was the only action my self respect would allow.

Too many guys are willing to toss away any self respect to get back a wife who clearly does not respect them anyway.

I think its rare that a guy reconciles and keeps most of his self respect. 

We swallow our pride for many things.

Perhaps the wife is worth it. Mine was not.


----------



## Healer

illwill said:


> Perhaps the wife is worth it. Mine was not.


By definition, a wife is no longer worth it the second she takes another man's penis into her vagina.

Kinda like dropping your ice cream cone into a steaming pile of dog sh*t. The 2 second rule doesn't really apply, does it?


----------



## illwill

Healer said:


> By definition, a wife is no longer worth it the second she takes another man's penis into her vagina.
> 
> Kinda like dropping your ice cream cone into a steaming pile of dog sh*t. The 2 second rule doesn't really apply, does it?


Only the betrayed spouse can really make that assessment.

We all define love by own standards.


----------



## Healer

illwill said:


> Only the betrayed spouse can really make that assessment.
> 
> We all define love by own standards.


Agreed, I only speak for myself.


----------



## jim123

Horizon said:


> And swallowed his seed 3 times if either of them can be believed; at least 3 times then. What does it matter? "I almost gagged" she said when we had our first recommended "10 minute free for all". I snapped when I heard that - and that was the death of our official reconciliation talks right there and then. Perfect - another reason to kill off communication and avoid - "you get too angry".


This is part of what I am saying. She did something for OM that she does not do for you. He is special, you are not.

The actions of the WW before and during the affair are hard to overcome.


----------



## toolforgrowth

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


What kind of man would he be if he did that?

And more importantly, why should he settle for that?

There are countless women out there who will remain loyal to a man and love him deeply. Any healthy, integrated man can find one.

That kind of attitude will never win back a betrayed man who is healthy and integrated. He would never settle for it. He deserves better, and he knows it.

The onus is on the cheater to prove to the betrayed that they can be the partner the betrayed deserves. There are some who are up to the challenge (such as few people here on TAM), but the vast majority are not. Betrayed men know this.

He has control over his life and his decisions. You do not. You only have control over your own. So, make better choices.


----------



## ConanHub

learning to love myself said:


> We are in reconciliation and has been hard, I believe the only reason he has given me a second chance is I have forgiven him and stood by him for things he has done in the past, that he wont equate to part of the reason we ended up in this mess.


The whole reason you are in this mess is because you decided to explore your inner slvt instead of working on your relationship or divorcing. 

I agree that women can simply fvck just to fvck.


----------



## larry.gray

Machiavelli said:


> No wife wants her H to thinks she's a slvt, so all that is reserved for the Prince Charming OM who awakens her Sleeping Inner Slvt.


Freud named a complex after that: http://tinyurl.com/382vylb

Madonna–whöre complex

Given the number of guys that report that their wife did that for the OM when they refused to them makes me think it is REALLY common.


----------



## Horizon

It is simply impossible for me to even contemplate forgiveness if my WS will not do a damn thing to reconcile. This is limbo land. My counselor has gone into great detail about the many years he has dealt with alcoholics. They build a wall around themselves and it is impenetrable. She was capable of an affair however, just to feel desired again, or whatever the f**k she got out of it besides d**k, but that "wall" means she can't deal with the full tilt emotional fallout. 

She cannot make any amends. A few tears in the first 2 months after DDay and the odd apology / mea culpa and that was it. Late last year after an argument (rare these days) my WS dropped an absolute classic - "this isn't working, you aren't getting over it". Says it all; when I "recover" all will be well....huh?

And yes, she did do stuff with that POS snake OM that she had denied me for years. Whether we should describe a person as being a slvt because of the acts doesn't wash with me, though the circumstances of those acts may justify the description. Immoral Lascivious Behavior - ILB? I just feel a bit hypocritical calling anyone a slvt. 

Forget? Never! Forgive? Doubtful, she is going to have to do some heavy lifting. I'm not holding my breath, I'm working on my me.


----------



## Machiavelli

larry.gray said:


> Freud named a complex after that: Madonnaâ€“***** complex - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Madonna–whöre complex
> 
> Given the number of guys that report that their wife did that for the OM when they refused to them makes me think it is REALLY common.


It's probably part of that female compartmentalization tendency.


----------



## Machiavelli

Horizon said:


> And yes, she did do stuff with that POS snake OM that she had denied me for years. Whether we should describe a person as being a slvt because of the acts doesn't wash with me, though the circumstances of those acts may justify the description. Immoral Lascivious Behavior - ILB? I just feel a bit hypocritical calling anyone a slvt.


She's the one who sees those actions in that light, which is why she doesn't want to do them with her provider and father of her children. That stuff goes in a different compartment.


----------



## MovingAhead

I forgave my EX a very long time ago. I don't let it bother me at all.

I don't think about it because I am detached. I just don't care.

I have moved on with my life and there are so many good ones out there. I just want to enjoy life instead of dragging myself down in misery.


----------



## hambone

Lon said:


> Strange, i see this as the old cliche, but from what I've realized since is that, in my world at least, it is the exact opposite on every single bullet point.
> 
> Most women i have gotten to know (except for a few with impossibly high standards that have gone decades without ever so much as a date or even a kiss) have all had ONS and casual sex and easily separate sex from love, whereas most of my guy friends are like me and need both simultaneously or we just can't get it up.
> 
> All of the people in my life who I've learned had affairs were women (except for my ex's dad) and all (but my ex's dad) divorced after the BH's pleaded and begged, but it was the WW's wanting the divorce.
> 
> But i think we are from within different generations Hambone.


I don't know about clichés. It's personal experience. Where I worked, there were about 3 guys, including myself, and about 20 women. A few in their 40's-50's, one in her early 30's and the rest were 25 or younger. 

What I related was the conversations the 20's something would have.

They did all the talking and I just casually listened in.

I never heard any of them admit to a ONS... BUT, when they were talking about people they knew who had a ONS... OMG.. they didn't have anything nice to say about her... The derisive term they used for her would be. "horn dog". as in, "Oh Yeah! She's a horn dog!". 

I've been retired for 13 years. 

Only 1 or 2 of them were married... A lot of them had steady boyfriends... some of which were live in boyfriends. 

Maybe girls in the south are different.


----------



## larry.gray

The Cro-Magnon said:


> Women cannot be deceived into raising a child that is not their own.


Women just can't comprehend the idea and don't seem to get that at all. 

I have found that there is one way that they get an inkling though: When a woman's daughter in law is pregnant, plant the seed in their mind: This is only your grandchild if it turns out your DIL is trustworthy. Then tell them to imagine that little niggling doubt in the back of your mind applied to every one of your children.


----------



## Philat

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about forgiveness recently, primarily as a result of conversations with a couple of very good TAM friends. There are many threads here touching on this theme, and I really don’t think we need another, so I’ll try to articulate these thoughts here.

Shirley Glass has a lot of insightful things to say about forgiveness, but mainly in the context of couples who reconcile. Our discussion here on TAM/CWI is broader than that. Forgiveness is a prerequisite for successful reconciliation, but what does it mean to forgive an infidelity even if the infidelity meant the end of the relationship? Most of us can agree that you can forgive without forgetting, so forgiveness must in essence be a change in the way you perceive, relate to or react to those events that you are not forgetting. Some might argue that forgiveness is not so much an active process as it is a gradual transition into indifference, but how does this happen? “Time heals all wounds” doesn’t cut it, as many of us who are still wounded years after the fact can attest.

I think that a financial analogy is apt here: Forgiveness means giving up trying to collect on a debt that can never be repaid. When a partner is unfaithful they rob you of something that cannot be replaced (Cloaked’s thread takes this issue on: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/166394-what-do-ws-lose-their-bss-opinion-them.html). My W cannot pay me back the years of her EA when her emotional loyalty was directed elsewhere; Mrs John Adams cannot make restitution for that day with Professor Evil; Granny7’s husband cannot compensate her for 25 years of devastation; Rdmu’s W cannot reimburse him for the sheer horror of her actions; sammy3’s H cannot make amends for his betrayal and the years of emotional limbo he put her through; Tears could not repay her H for that one afternoon of stupidity. Etc. I think forgiveness means reaching a point where you no longer yearn for some form of repayment for the debt of past infidelity. It is a sunk emotional cost. In this sense I agree with those who say that forgiveness is an action taken by the forgiver for his/her own benefit. It is not right or wrong to forgive or not—it is an individual thing. You can love someone without having forgiven them. Those who forgive in the sense I am proposing are not holier than those who don’t. But they are probably happier.

This does not necessarily mean the betrayer is absolved from guilt. It does not mean that the betrayer is starting over with a clean slate of trust (even if you forgive a debt you are going to think twice before lending that person more money). It does not mean that you understand or condone the betrayal. It does not mean that you even want to have anything more to do with the betrayer. And it certainly does not mean that you forget the betrayal and its impact. It means you are no longer going to expend thought and energy on what you feel you are owed by the betrayer.

When my W and I had our long-overdue crisis over her A and assorted other disrespectful (to me) relationships last fall, she said she hoped “somewhere down the road” I could forgive her. I think I have, and JohnAdams was my inspiration. I thought if he could forgive Mrs JA then who am I not to forgive my W? He saved himself 30 years of misery by forgiving. But he hasn’t forgotten, and neither have I. Antennae are up, eyes are open. 

Maybe this is all trivially obvious; if so I apologize. But I feel I have made some progress along the road.


----------



## Machiavelli

2ntnuf said:


> http://madonna*****.com/
> 
> http://www.justanswer.com/mental-health/6csqm-warning-signs-boyfriend-may-madonna.html
> 
> Not being snarky gentlemen. I just wanted to post a different view for consideration. It's a pretty complex thing. I've read about it and Elvis had it according to many. There actually aren't that many men who actually have it. I can't find the site I read, but there was a whole list of things and you had to hit on almost all of them or have extensive psychological examination to determine if someone really does have the complex. Many may have it, but it's tough to tell for certain. Take a peek for another opinion.


You're talking about the actual "Madonna-***** Complex", the real deal. The guy who mentioned it here kind of turned it around by pointing out that WW and WF exhibit madonna behavior with the H or the guy they want to be H, and ***** behavior with other men. There's no definition of this as a complex or disorder, probably because it's "normal." Been there.


----------



## Philat

2ntnuf said:


> No thoughts on that? Just what I expected.


No thoughts while out shoveling snow, at any rate.

Your post was not easy to follow, 2ntnuf, but what I take away is that you feel that telling your 2x that you forgive her is to admit that you deserved what she did to you. Not at all. You clearly believe that she owes you and should pay. Not surprising then that you are not in a position to forgive. My thought (from the point of view of my own situation) is that forgiveness comes when you realize that the debt cannot be paid and you stop looking for that. I think everyone reaches this point by a different route (some never do)--the greater the hurt the longer and more complex the route, probably.

Forgiveness, in this sense, is not even necessarily something that is given or said to the one who hurt you. It's not for them. It's letting go within yourself of the desire for something that you can really never have: complete restitution for the hurt.


----------



## convert

My ww confuses forgiveness with forgetting.
I will never forget so she thinks i can not forgive.

yes, yes, classic sign of rug sweeping


----------



## Runs like Dog

Why? Because at that point one or both you have steered the relationship into uncharted seas from whence it will never return. You're now more or less in a less emotional more legalistic relationship where personal feelings don't appear to matter as much. 

Think of it in the very small scale. You're married to someone who lives and breathes to scold, correct and nag everything you say. Eventually you stop saying much of anything to them. It's just no longer part of the deal. If someone ho's around on you, you can I supposed go on from there but it's clearly not going to be the same as before. Why bother forgiving someone that unreliable since being 'forgive-able' was never important to them in the first place?


----------



## Philat

convert said:


> My ww confuses forgiveness with forgetting.
> I will never forget so she thinks i can not forgive.
> 
> yes, yes, classic sign of rug sweeping


She probably also thinks forgiving means absolving somehow. Clean slate. No.


----------



## Jung_admirer

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


Men are trained from an early age to control their feelings. There is a huge downside to this in that men have less experience than women in expressing empathy. I peered deeply into my fWW's soul and felt the devastation and utter despair that lead to her self-validating PA. I had a choice to engage her or discharge her. I chose the former because in revealing this vulnerability, she set the stage for the development of intimacy and trust. She also began IC to understand her need for external validation. 

Absent that, I would have chosen the latter.


----------



## Graywolf2

This is very general answer to a very general question. Do not get mad.

Because “woman give sex for love and men give love for sex.” 

I read that there are 10 things that people gain from marriage and that men tend to have a different top 5 than woman. For example sex might be in the top 5 for men more often while security might be in the top 5 for woman more often.

Men feel like fools if they are providing their wife with her top 5 while she is providing the OM with his (the husband’s) top 5.

The following saying is dangerous because some people think it equates women with cows. I don’t mean it that way and it’s a simple way of expressing my point.

The husband paid for the cow and the OM gets the milk. And it might even be better milk than the husband is getting. 



Machiavelli said:


> No wife wants her H to thinks she's a slvt, so all that is reserved for the Prince Charming OM who awakens her Sleeping Inner Slvt... She doesn't want to do them with her provider and father of her children.


The OM is getting the cream off the top. The husband feels like a fool for paying full price. 

If a man tells his wife that the he didn’t care about the OW, that it was only sex, it might help because the wife wants assurance that the OW isn’t taking her security (her husband) away. 

If a woman tells her husband the same, that the OM was just a piece of meat, it makes matters worse. The husband is thinking: “Why couldn’t I have been a piece of meat and gotten the milk for free?” He assumes that the answer is that the OM is better than he is. Or at least his wife thinks so.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Jung_admirer said:


> Men are trained from an early age to control their feelings. There is a huge downside to this...


:iagree:

I like your post, but I wanted to emphasize the part quoted above. I want to add some thoughts about how we are taught as young boys.

Boys are taught at the lap of their mothers that women are special. Women should be held in highest regards. Boys should never hit or humilate girls. Girls are "sugar and spice, and all that is nice."

Boys grow into men that believe women are the "fairer" sex. Women are like our mothers or sisters. They will love us if we love them. Men are then shattered when a woman who does the unthinkable. We realize that things our mothers taught us was a lie. Women are fallible. Some are just awful. When we realize the new "truth" we can see our WW for the person she really is, a dishonest person that cheats. It also forces us to re-evaluate all that we understand about women. A new belief system has to replace the old. This especially true for those that have done their best to be thoughtful, caring husbands that provide, and seldom complain about our own needs. 

I wonder if women grow up with the same expectations of men. I doubt it. Men are often portrayed as the negative part of society. Girls may be grounded in their perceptions and more realistic in their expectations for fidelity in the opposite sex.

It seems that the few men that do make it through R are wounded deeply.

Men in limbo have to decide if they can do better, or enjoy being on their own. Most realize that they can do one or the other.

I like this thread. It is too bad the OP has vanished. Maybe it is helpful because we are expressing our "feelings" as mentioned in the quote above. 

Just my opinions. Hope it isn't taken as anything offensive or sexist.


----------



## ConanHub

Lovemytruck said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I like your post, but I wanted to emphasize the part quoted above. I want to add some thoughts about how we are taught as young boys.
> 
> Boys are taught at the lap of their mothers that women are special. Women should be held in highest regards. Boys should never hit or humilate girls. Girls are "sugar and spice, and all that is nice."
> 
> Boys grow into men that believe women are the "fairer" sex. Women are like our mothers or sisters. They will love us if we love them. Men are then shattered when a woman who does the unthinkable. We realize that things our mothers taught us was a lie. Women are fallible. Some are just awful. When we realize the new "truth" we can see our WW for the person she really is, a dishonest person that cheats. It also forces us to re-evaluate all that we understand about women. A new belief system has to replace the old. This especially true for those that have done their best to be thoughtful, caring husbands that provide, and seldom complain about our own needs.
> 
> I wonder if women grow up with the same expectations of men. I doubt it. Men are often portrayed as the negative part of society. Girls may be grounded in their perceptions and more realistic in their expectations for fidelity in the opposite sex.
> 
> It seems that the few men that do make it through R are wounded deeply.
> 
> Men in limbo have to decide if they can do better, or enjoy being on their own. Most realize that they can do one or the other.
> 
> I like this thread. It is too bad the OP has vanished. Maybe it is helpful because we are expressing our "feelings" as mentioned in the quote above.
> 
> Just my opinions. Hope it isn't taken as anything offensive or sexist.


I guess in that I am lucky. My mother was worse than any three WW stories I have ever read. Also early on in high school, I tried to treat girls nice but all they wanted me to do was give them a couple of beers and take their clothes off.
By the time I met my wife, I was fully aware of how much debauchery women were capable of.

That knowledge helped me avoid several questionable women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnAdams

2ntnuf said:


> Philat,
> 
> Actually, I think it would be very important to me to read what Mr. John Adams has to say about this. If someone can point me to where he has posted about telling Mrs. John Adams he is sorry for whatever he did and what those things are, and how he made or attempted to make amends, I'd really appreciate it. I think that's the perspective I need. I need to know what to ask forgiveness for. Do I ask for only those things which I know I did? Do I ask forgiveness for those things which she thinks I did? Do I just lump all of the problems onto my own shoulders and say, "Hey, x2, I know you were justified doing all those things to me. I deserved it. Will you forgive me, please? Now, can we hug and make friends? I'd like to take you out for an ice cream. Bring your lover. I'll buy him an ice cream, too." Yes, it's bitter. How do you get to the point where you can find out what the hell actually happened, so you know what to apologize for doing? I don't mind apologizing for the things I've done. I cannot apologize for things I did not do. That would make her feel better, but it will do nothing, but justify her and everyone else and make me take on more pain for things I didn't do. How do you get to the place where you can talk when there is no contact and no way to talk? How do you do that? Someone, please tell me the answers. That's exactly what I need. Talk, proof, then there can be forgiveness and moving on, forward, upward and peace for all.


Sorry for not getting back sooner. I was traveling today back from a business trip and did not have much time between flights. And then when I got home I had a lovely dinner with Mrs. JA and then we well we celebrated Valentine's Day

Anyway, let me see if I understand. I think you are asking if I asked Mrs. JA to forgive me for the shortcomings in our marriage?

I do not remember specifically saying I was sorry for our marriage condition pre-affair. I do remember knowing something was wrong and trying unsuccessfully to get her attention. When we came back together; i.e. her affair was over and we put the pieces back together, we at first certainly were closely bonding. A bit later we went to a counselor a few times and found that to be a waste. We talked not only of the affair but also the problems in our marriage. We worked through those issues but again I do not remember specifically apologizing. I think the problems were on both sides. I do not feel I needed to apologize or Mrs. Adams either for that matter. It was just a matter of working through the issues. I guess the affair was such the big deal. That is what was on my mind. I think we quickly worked through the marriage issue part. The affair was almost a bit weird, we had a good marriage, then it quickly went south for awhile, then we picked it back up.

None of this probably helps. If you want to know anything specific I will try to answer.


----------



## johnAdams

Philat said:


> :
> This does not necessarily mean th...orgive. But, I know I have forgiven Mrs. JA.


----------



## Machiavelli

ConanHub said:


> I guess in that I am lucky. My mother was worse than any three WW stories I have ever read. Also early on in high school, I tried to treat girls nice but all they wanted me to do was give them a couple of beers and take their clothes off.
> By the time I met my wife, I was fully aware of how much debauchery women were capable of.
> 
> That knowledge helped me avoid several questionable women.


Guys who are routinely approached by women for sexual purposes learn this duality sooner. Some guys just don't believe it.


----------



## Mr Blunt

I like the posts below for giving insight to forgiveness and think they are worth repeating



> *By Philat*
> I think forgiveness means reaching a point where you no longer yearn for some form of repayment for the debt of past infidelity.
> 
> I agree with those who say that forgiveness is an action taken by the forgiver for his/her own benefit






[QUOTE*]By John Adams*
It does mean that the WW is more important than their action

I did not owe her forgiveness, but to move on and back to a good place in your life you have to forgive[/QUOTE]



I also think that Mr. Adam‘s statement about the WW being more important than the action is key to begin a R that may also include staying together as a couple.

*I would just add that forgiveness includes taking a loss and not being bitter or revengeful. Successful forgiveness eliminates your emotions from holding you hostage*


----------



## the guy

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


Cuz it's hard to get past the fact that some phucker is pounding your old lady and your not.

Especially if thePOS has a bigger penis!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Horizon

Machiavelli said:


> Guys who are routinely approached by women for sexual purposes learn this duality sooner. Some guys just don't believe it.


Some guys just aren't getting hit on.


----------



## Horizon

I have made it clear to my WS that I have not forgiven her. I would love to forgive her but it is not possible right now. She gets that. I have also told her that even if she did an about face and actually became involved in genuine reconciliation that it was no guarantee that I would or could forgive her. But I want to and I think one day I will - I look fwd to that day. The big deal is two pronged: her inaction and that awful truth that she held the henhouse door wide open for that piece of cowardly excrement who masquerades as a human being. These are the two pillars of my anger; I deal with it daily but you know what? I am twice the man I was 10 months ago. I don't take sh!t anymore, I work out - I deal honestly with people.

Yesterday I was at a huge family wedding. Unfortunately one of my brothers, who sat next to me at the reception, decided he was going to be an a-hole. Rather than threaten to tear him apart as I did a year ago when he pushed my buttons I just shrugged my shoulders an ignored him (I felt sorry for him but i wasn't going to play that game). The difference is I can handle it now - I have grown. We hardly exchanged a word all night. On the other side of me was my WS and we have never communicated better. Go figure.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Just repackaging what others have already said. Forgiving aside, he can't get past what she did and move on with her because he knows if he did he would cease to be a man. Or at least he wouldn' feel like one. To feel like a man again, to feel good again he needs to move on without her. Then hopefully find a woman who loves him enough to be incapable of humiliating him.

Gender-neutral terms yield the same conclusions I think. The ego or self-concept of the betrayed wife will not recover if she stays with her wayward H IMO. she may feel she can sacrifice a little self respect for the sake of her family, but she'll eventually discover that she cannot/should not have. If there's a difference between the genders on this -- how to respond to infidelity --then this is one where women could learn from men....


----------



## Jung_admirer

Machiavelli said:


> That is the classic conversion process from alpha rock star to beta/delta/gamma worker drone. She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to ward off female competition, then she goes after an Alpha for the sex thrill.


OR ..... She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to allow her to feel safe, then she goes after an Alpha because she still needs what you have now suppressed.

One more comment. There was a test at the beginning of the relationship and had you not responded in exactly the way she needed you to, the relationship would have ended. Her efforts and your response were completely subconscious. These projections from the WS were there from the beginning. The BS must examine what part of himself/herself was activated by the WS. We have to remember we chose this partner for a very good reason despite what we might dismiss as ignorance.


----------



## NatashaYurino

daveca said:


> In all likelihood the wife has/had refused her husband sex or didn't offer it as often as the husband wanted. That means she gave away what her husband was trying to get. She chose the man over her husband.
> 
> When most men have affairs they aren't getting all the sex they want at home so they are not choosing the mistress over the wife. They are not denying their wife sex and then giving it to someone else. That's the difference.
> 
> Also, many women require an emotional bond with the guy before having sex. Not always but more often than not. That means she likes the guy.
> 
> In the case of men there are far fewer emotional bonds. Again, the man is not choosing the mistress over the wife. There is nothing "personal" about it. He just wants sex and in most cases the husband would prefer the wife.
> 
> So when it comes to forgiveness it's not just about the act. The husband realizes his wife doesn't really like him so how can one forgive the way a person feels? How can one regret or apologize for how they felt?
> 
> In other words when a wife has an affair (generally speaking) reconciliation involves the wife having to change her feelings towards her husband. That isn't necessary when the husband has an affair. He loves his wife and never stopped loving her. The sex had nothing to do with his feelings towards his wife.
> 
> So, how does one apologize for their feelings? It's like saying, "OK, I will start loving you now." Or "I will work on loving you."
> 
> Who would want to be in a relationship like that? Thus no reconciliation.
> 
> I want to stress I'm speaking in a general sense. No doubt there are women who just like ****, plain and simple.


Sorry but I disagree with some of what you said. I don't really buy this notion that just because when most men cheat it was only sex that they wanted and usually there's no feelings for other woman, that it was not something personal in relation to the wife/gf.

The way I view cheating is: life put you in a postion in which you had to choose to either walk away from the other man/woman and remain faithful to your loved one paying the price of not being able to live your fantasy to have sex with the other person or to stay, have sex and enjoy that fantasy but paying the ultimate price of losing your loved for,possibly, FOREVER. 

So when you go ahead and cheat you ARE choosing the other person. Your actions are saying you'd rather have a moment of meaningless sex with someone you're the first to admit means NOTHING to you even if in order to do that you have to lose the one who does mean something to you. What kind of love is that?!

"I love you and you mean the world to me and the other person is nothing to me, but if I have to choose between what could be a life time by your side or a meaningless and short-lived moment of sex with the one who means nothing....I choose the meaningless sex with the one who is nothing to me."

How can a woman not take that very personally? Just because her husband/bf can say he has no feelings for the other woman?

When you act as if having meaningless sex with someone who is a nobody to you and you're willing to pay the ultimate price of losing your loved one for the rest of your life, you completely obliterate anything positive that there's attached to being the one you love. That's how I felt when my bf cheated on me. How can I believe he loves me when he's willing to lose and hurt me immensely just to have sex with some girl he's the first to admit means nothing to him?

If I truly meant as much as he claimed I did and if she meant as little as he also claimed she did, then why didn't he say no to the meaningless one and kept the one who meant a lot.

That's why I don't really buy the notion that male infidelity isn't as damaging as female, just because people claim when a man cheats the other woman means nothing to him.

He means a lot me and to know he was willing to lose me for sex with someone who meant nothing to him just hurts far too much for me to just pretend it wasn't that bad just because it's not like he loved her.

He may not have cheated TO lose me, but he knew there was 99% of chance he WOULD and that did not stop him. That to me does not sound much like love. He may not love her, I believe that, but don't try to convience me he loves me, not after the choice he made.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trigger warning....

Of the 4 women I know that have been cheated on, not a single one of them has forgiven. They are all biding their time, gathering their finances together and plan on leaving. As one so aptly put it: "Do you think I want to hear a word coming out of that mouth let alone kiss it knowing where it has been?" Her husband on the other hand thinks he can "nice" his way out of this and doesn't have a clue. 

Don't confuse not walking out the door that moment as a sign of forgiveness. Many lay in wait for various reasons.


----------



## Horizon

NatashaYurino said:


> Sorry but I disagree with some of what you said. I don't really buy this notion that just because when most men cheat it was only sex that they wanted and usually there's no feelings for other woman, that it was not something personal in relation to the wife/gf.
> 
> The way I view cheating is: life put you in a postion in which you had to choose to either walk away from the other man/woman and remain faithful to your loved one paying the price of not being able to live your fantasy to have sex with the other person or to stay, have sex and enjoy that fantasy but paying the ultimate price of losing your loved for,possibly, FOREVER.
> 
> So when you go ahead and cheat you ARE choosing the other person. Your actions are saying you'd rather have a moment of meaningless sex with someone you're the first to admit means NOTHING to you even if in order to do that you have to lose the one who does mean something to you. What kind of love is that?!
> 
> "I love you and you mean the world to me and the other person is nothing to me, but if I have to choose between what could be a life time by your side or a meaningless and short-lived moment of sex with the one who means nothing....I choose the meaningless sex with the one who is nothing to me."
> 
> How can a woman not take that very personally? Just because her husband/bf can say he has no feelings for the other woman?
> 
> When you act as if having meaningless sex with someone who is a nobody to you and you're willing to pay the ultimate price of losing your loved one for the rest of your life, you completely obliterate anything positive that there's attached to being the one you love. That's how I felt when my bf cheated on me. How can I believe he loves me when he's willing to lose and hurt me immensely just to have sex with some girl he's the first to admit means nothing to him?
> 
> If I truly meant as much as he claimed I did and if she meant as little as he also claimed she did, then why didn't he say no to the meaningless one and kept the one who meant a lot.
> 
> That's why I don't really buy the notion that male infidelity isn't as damaging as female, just because people claim when a man cheats the other woman means nothing to him.
> 
> He means a lot me and to know he was willing to lose me for sex with someone who meant nothing to him just hurts far too much for me to just pretend it wasn't that bad just because it's not like he loved her.
> 
> He may not have cheated TO lose me, but he knew there was 99% of chance he WOULD and that did not stop him. That to me does not sound much like love. He may not love her, I believe that, but don't try to convience me he loves me, not after the choice he made.
> 
> Just my two cents.


How do you feel about your BF now Natasha? The whole thing stinks to high heaven. I'm not sure if your BF was involved in a ONS or it was ongoing but I can tell you that the phrase "They meant nothing to me" means absolutely nothing to me. Just words to minimise the betrayal.

In fact the unconsidered risk he took just demonstrates how much it did mean to him. Just being on TAM does sometimes make me wonder if infidelity is on the way out. My WS said "Read, the papers, it happens all the time". Yes, seriously. Once again just words to minmise, to deflect. 

In reality these cheap words are massive insults to our intelligence and increase the distress. Cheaters by their nature run from the truth.

More strength to you Natasha.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

NatashaYurino said:


> Sorry but I disagree with some of what you said. I don't really buy this notion that just because when most men cheat it was only sex that they wanted and usually there's no feelings for other woman, that it was not something personal in relation to the wife/gf.
> 
> The way I view cheating is: life put you in a postion in which you had to choose to either walk away from the other man/woman and remain faithful to your loved one paying the price of not being able to live your fantasy to have sex with the other person or to stay, have sex and enjoy that fantasy but paying the ultimate price of losing your loved for,possibly, FOREVER.
> 
> So when you go ahead and cheat you ARE choosing the other person. Your actions are saying you'd rather have a moment of meaningless sex with someone you're the first to admit means NOTHING to you even if in order to do that you have to lose the one who does mean something to you. What kind of love is that?!
> 
> "I love you and you mean the world to me and the other person is nothing to me, but if I have to choose between what could be a life time by your side or a meaningless and short-lived moment of sex with the one who means nothing....I choose the meaningless sex with the one who is nothing to me."
> 
> How can a woman not take that very personally? Just because her husband/bf can say he has no feelings for the other woman?
> 
> When you act as if having meaningless sex with someone who is a nobody to you and you're willing to pay the ultimate price of losing your loved one for the rest of your life, you completely obliterate anything positive that there's attached to being the one you love. That's how I felt when my bf cheated on me. How can I believe he loves me when he's willing to lose and hurt me immensely just to have sex with some girl he's the first to admit means nothing to him?
> 
> If I truly meant as much as he claimed I did and if she meant as little as he also claimed she did, then why didn't he say no to the meaningless one and kept the one who meant a lot.
> 
> That's why I don't really buy the notion that male infidelity isn't as damaging as female, just because people claim when a man cheats the other woman means nothing to him.
> 
> He means a lot me and to know he was willing to lose me for sex with someone who meant nothing to him just hurts far too much for me to just pretend it wasn't that bad just because it's not like he loved her.
> 
> He may not have cheated TO lose me, but he knew there was 99% of chance he WOULD and that did not stop him. That to me does not sound much like love. He may not love her, I believe that, but don't try to convience me he loves me, not after the choice he made.
> 
> Just my two cents.


I'm with you on this. If you cheat on me, it better mean something to you because it sure means something to me, our children, our families and our future.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'm with you on this. If you cheat on me, it better mean something to you because it sure means something to me, our children, our families and our future.


....this is some of the topicality that is getting kicked around in therapy with my wife the past few sessions. With more investigation that I did surrounding her ONS almost 19 yrs ago ....things just didn't add up ..and I called her on it. I asked her ..."where were the children when you were at a bowling alley bar and met the POSOM"? Silence ...then more silence. We had started a trial separation the day before ....I was hanging my hat at my parents house ....and did not have my kids. 

.....so ...not only did she betray me ...she felt it was a good enough reason to dump our kids somewhere while she went out and f*cked some douche-bag. 

...she clearly demonstrated supreme cheater selfishness with that choice.

....all these little "details" .....help clarify the picture ....but also make total forgiveness ......difficult ....to say the least.


----------



## Machiavelli

Horizon said:


> Some guys just aren't getting hit on.


Yes, I know. Until just a few years ago, I thought all guys got hit on, not necessarily by the hottest girls, but by women that were more or less the same rank as the guy. Now I know that is not the way it works.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....this is some of the topicality that is getting kicked around in therapy with my wife the past few sessions. With more investigation that I did surrounding her ONS almost 19 yrs ago ....things just didn't add up ..and I called her on it. I asked her ..."where were the children when you were at a bowling alley bar and met the POSOM"? Silence ...then more silence. We had started a trial separation the day before ....I was hanging my hat at my patents house ....and did not have my kids.
> 
> .....so ...not only did she betray me ...she felt it was a good enough reason to dump our kids somewhere while she went out and f*cked some douche-bag.
> 
> ...she clearly demonstrated supreme cheater selfishness with that choice.
> 
> ....all these little "details" .....help clarify the picture ....but also make total forgiveness ......difficult ....to say the least.


(((Hugs))) That is awful. Ugh.


----------



## Machiavelli

Jung_admirer said:


> OR ..... She works overtime to suppress your attractive traits in order to allow her to feel safe, then she goes after an Alpha because she still needs what you have now suppressed.


Agreed. It's all part of the same sh!t sandwich.


----------



## larry.gray

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....this is some of the topicality that is getting kicked around in therapy with my wife the past few sessions. With more investigation that I did surrounding her ONS almost 19 yrs ago ....things just didn't add up ..and I called her on it. I asked her ..."where were the children when you were at a bowling alley bar and met the POSOM"? Silence ...then more silence. We had started a trial separation the day before ....I was hanging my hat at my patents house ....and did not have my kids.
> 
> .....so ...not only did she betray me ...she felt it was a good enough reason to dump our kids somewhere while she went out and f*cked some douche-bag.


So did your wife ever come up with an answer where she dumped them? I would still wonder if the bowling alley story was true, or was it made up. Her deer in the headlights silence would only make me think that even more.

Is your 18 y/o your youngest? If so, it's a good time to tell your wife that it is not limbo time anymore.


----------



## Horizon

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, I know. Until just a few years ago, I thought all guys got hit on, not necessarily by the hottest girls, but by women that were more or less the same rank as the guy. Now I know that is not the way it works.


I speak from experience. I haven't been hit on for many years. My rating plummeted - all my fault of course, I let myself go. It is this truth and a bunch of other things which "inspired' my WS's affair. It made me feel even older. An old grumpy ba**ard. Now after 7 months in the gym, better clothes and sharper hair I'm still not getting hit on but I feel one hell of a lot better. 

On reflection and from what I can surmise, it seems as though the POSOM f**ked a little lower down the totem pole when he hit on my WS. She's not a bad looking girl and very vibrant but I'm pretty sure she was an easy target. Then again, I haven't a clue who hit on who when they first hooked up. Yet another question a BS deserves an answer to.


----------



## birthdaysex

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


While I'm not a man and not ready to share my story, you tend not to ever forget being cheated on. You may forgive but you certainly will not forget the pain of the betrayal and loss of the marriage you thought you had. That said, I think with hard work from both people, a new and stronger marriage can be made. The marriage before infidelity is dead.


----------



## over20

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


I actually think it's the other way around.......Men and more importantly DH are much more forgiving of the wives transgressions.....


----------



## birthdaysex

Over20,

I agree with that wholeheartedly.


----------



## bigtone128

I will chime in.. for me I grew up with guys and played many sports and listened to how women were referred to by guys...the nature of the discussion..it is not flattering to the women. I, as with most men, seek out women who, we believe, do not fall into that category. When they do, via affairs, well, for me, I could just hear the guy at work after giving it to my ex after work. He'd be saying to his mates "you would not believe how she does this or that" "her (fill in the body part) was like this" - knowing that the one I loved reduced herself to that status and drew herself into that conversation is too much for me to bear. The poster who talked about men valuing respect highly is true in my case. Such disrespect for me, her, our children, our families, etc. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum. They are open for all to see. 

Now I have worked with many women and most when they are involved with man talk about different things - not about the nitty gritty details but about how "nice" the guy was and how "nicely he treated" her. But the guy seducing someone else's wife KNOWS what he is doing, he KNOWS how he'd react if it were HIS wife, but does not care. That is why they hide under the skirts of the man's wife he is messing with. My ex said when she left that she was so afraid of me being violent - I did not know where she was coming from as I was not violent before and did not know what was going on. But now understand why - he knew and she knew what they were doing. In the old days - men were justified to go out and trounce the other guy for harming his family. But now, we are not allowed to, so guys just let it go. For me, to know that my ex
1) disrespected me so badly.
2) deceived me so badly.
3) protected him from me while he was having his way with her.
4) threw her family under the bus for such a POS
5) was talking crap about me while I was out trying to support a family. It is too much to turn one's back on. No one loved their family more than I did but when someone takes a grenade and explodes the family from the inside out - there is nothing left to salvage.
Please note none of what I mentioned does not even touch on the sexual aspects to deal with...these are just the social aspects. Further, when I am out busting my behind to support a family, I would like to know that someone is home keeping it safe. I could never trust that again with her....thus reconciliation is unlikely.
SO these are the reasons I think it is harder for men to forgive. Sorry for the rant.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



larry.gray said:


> So did your wife ever come up with an answer where she dumped them? I would still wonder if the bowling alley story was true, or was it made up. Her deer in the headlights silence would only make me think that even more.
> 
> Is your 18 y/o your youngest? If so, it's a good time to tell your wife that it is not limbo time anymore.


.....no answer yet. She's still maintaining her "I don't remember" defense ....just like she has from the start, about any 'details' ...etc. 

.....perhaps she'll change her tune, now that she knows that this past year's increased stress...brought on by "D-day 1.5" ....is causing me to have dangerously high blood pressure.

.....and, yes ....18 yrs old is the youngest.


----------



## Joylush

They don't love them enough.


----------



## lovelyblue

It would be hard for me as a woman to forgive my mate if he cheated on me.

I'd tell him to hit the door especially if it was a sexual affair. I'm a very visual person and probably could not get the thoughts of him with some sexually out of my head.


----------



## Married but Happy

There's no problem with infidelity. The problem is with lying, deception, and cheating. Infidelity is not always cheating, but cheating is always infidelity.


----------



## Healer

Married but Happy said:


> There's no problem with infidelity.


Did you actually type that?


----------



## phoenix_

A real man would never put up with a woman who isn't loyal to him.


----------



## vellocet

Ok, lets not go back and forth of what a "real man" should be.

You have real men that reconcile, and those that don't.


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> Ok, lets not go back and forth of what a "real man" should be.
> 
> You have real men that reconcile, and those that don't.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: I hate when others try to tell me that I am not a "real" man because I don't react as they "think" I (and other "real" men) should!! 

Real men are also alpha, beta, and run the gamut of the rest of the greek alphabet as well for those wondering!!


----------



## Hurtin_Still

Squeakr said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: I hate when others try to tell me that I am not a "real" man because I don't react as they "think" I (and other "real" men) should!!
> 
> Real men are also alpha, beta, and run the gamut of the rest of the greek alphabet as well for those wondering!!



....and we have also been known to eat quiche on certain occassions.


----------



## bigtone128

Squeakr said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: I hate when others try to tell me that I am not a "real" man because I don't react as they "think" I (and other "real" men) should!!
> 
> Real men are also alpha, beta, and run the gamut of the rest of the greek alphabet as well for those wondering!!


Yea - irks the heck out of me as well.....it is used when the party is intolerant or wants other things but never accept responsibility for it. I mean, get real....


----------



## Horizon

phoenix_ said:


> A real man would never put up with a woman who isn't loyal to him.


Unless circumstances condemn you to grit your teeth. Not so black & white.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Healer said:


> Did you actually type that?


Remember, there are people that believe an EA(infidelity) doesn't exist and if it does it isn't like a PA (cheating/infidelity).

I was one of those people until I read my wife's texts. I was in the midst of trying to decide if there was such a thing as an Emotional Affair. I honestly thought I had made up an excuse, to recognize my feelings of betrayal.


----------



## illwill

Mrs. John Adams said:


> But a real man with a really remorseful wife...would....and has.


That is debatable.


----------



## illwill

Joylush said:


> They don't love them enough.


Or they do love them, but are not silly enough to still believe love conquers all. You can love someone but still love yourself enough to know they are not healthy for you.

And if their love for you, still allowed them to cheat, what good is that love?

We all define love in our on way. Mine does not include tolerance of infidelity.


----------



## vellocet

Joylush said:


> They don't love them enough.


Men can't forgive their cheating partner because they don't love them enough? That's rich.

How about their cheating partner didn't love them enough to not betray them?

I loved my wife. But the day she cheated she no longer was the person I fell in love with. It sucks to love someone, only for them to do that, then have someone tell them they didn't love them to begin with if they can't overlook them f****g someone else. Please.


----------



## illwill

Mrs. John Adams said:


> not to us. Its a fact.


In your case. I would agree.


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> Or they do love them, but are not silly enough to still believe love conquers all. You can love someone but still love yourself enough to know they are not healthy for you.
> 
> And if their love for you, still allowed them to cheat, what good is that love?
> 
> We all define love in our on way. Mine does not include tolerance of infidelity.


No one said you personally had to tolerate it. Your choice is your own and valid because you feel it was right for you. You probably have little tolerance for debating the validity of your choice. 

Mr&Mrs JA are not pushing an agenda I'll be the first to tell you that.

They are sharing their story, their experience and pain. And they've been pushed to debate. If I were them I'd run and not post. But I'm glad they didn't .


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> In your case. I would agree.



Ok illwill! Whew! I "like" you often. Mrs.JA is a soft spot! yep this sarcastic, jaded girl has one


----------



## illwill

Calm down. As i clearly wrote "My definition". What about that confused you?


----------



## ConanHub

I don't think men who R after Dday necessarily "tolerate " infidelity. Some take a very firm grip on their spouse and make damn sure their wives never give a repeat performance of cheating.

I honestly do have a hard time respecting men who stay when their WW is not absolutely broken and remorseful.

I don't believe everyone who chooses R actually tolerates being crapped on and make their spouse have very serious repercussions for their behavior.

This is coming from a man who would not R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

Joylush said:


> They don't love them enough.


Laughable and ludicrous statement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> Calm down. As i clearly wrote "My definition". What about that confused you?



I'm calm and I attempted to diffuse. I apologize. This thread got ugly a few days ago. 

I get your point! Slow on the uptake, sure! Quick to defend. And again I am sorry.


----------



## illwill

Just to clarify. I respect both the Adams and my comment was NOT a insult. I spoke in general terms.

All clear?


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> Just to clarify. I respect both the Adams and my comment was NOT a insult. I spoke in general terms.
> 
> All clear?


over and out illwill! I know the females are scarce in these parts. I'm taking full advantage of the hormonal, sleep deprived mess pass on this one! Like I said, I'm calm (as calm as I can get). Rather than just edit/delete I'm doing a full apology for misunderstanding. We are cool, no and no ill will. lame pun I by way of peace offering.


----------



## ShadowOfDoubt

This is my simplified understanding of infidelity…

Passion, Love, Respect, Trust, and Commitment are the basic elements of a relationship.
Passion and Love are from the heart.
Respect, Trust, and Commitment are from the mind.

Singularly, it’s Commitment that’s the binding element. Passion and love rise and fall, therefore cannot be trusted. A family unit requires Commitment, Respect, and Trust; not, Passion or Love.

Within the betrayed, the heart and mind begin an internal war. The heart doesn’t immediately recognize what has happened and won’t believe it. The mind, a logical calculator, sets out to rationalize the imbalances. The mind spends days, months, and years evaluating and reevaluating each detail. The hope is to recover thus ending the torment; rebalance passion, love, respect, trust, and commitment. But it can’t find a way. So it looks to the betrayer for answers. Each new detail, thought, or feeling feeds the cycle. 

The heart won’t let go, therefore it drags one where they do not want to go. One begins to become angry with oneself for the compromises they were forced to make. The humiliation it forces them to endure. Friends and family look on with scorn, give advice, or avoid. The mind begins analyzing its own compromises. Self-esteem is chiseled away. 

I thought of my prior relationship, at the end, this way. Words by Led Zepplin.

Someone told me there’s a girl out there with love in her eyes and flowers in her hair. The sea was red and the sky was gray, I wonder how tomorrow could ever follow this day. 
…
Throw me a line if I reach it in time I'll meet you up there where the path runs straight and high. To find a queen without a king they say she plays guitar, cry, and sings. She rides a white mare in the footsteps of dawn. I’m tryin' to find a woman who's never, never, never been born. I’m standing on a hill in my mountain of dreams, Telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.

I forgave her and I left because I couldn’t solve the equation and I had to put myself back together. I needed my heart and mind as one again.


----------



## illwill

kristin2349 said:


> over and out illwill! I know the females are scarce in these parts. I'm taking full advantage of the hormonal, sleep deprived mess pass on this one! Like I said, I'm calm (as calm as I can get). Rather than just edit/delete I'm doing a full apology for misunderstanding. We are cool, no and no ill will. lame pun I by way of peace offering.


All is forgiven. No worries. Have a great night.


----------



## Joylush

illwill said:


> Or they do love them, but are not silly enough to still believe love conquers all. You can love someone but still love yourself enough to know they are not healthy for you.
> 
> And if their love for you, still allowed them to cheat, what good is that love?
> 
> We all define love in our on way. Mine does not include tolerance of infidelity.


You've made my point.


----------



## Joylush

vellocet said:


> Men can't forgive their cheating partner because they don't love them enough? That's rich.
> 
> How about their cheating partner didn't love them enough to not betray them?
> 
> I loved my wife. But the day she cheated she no longer was the person I fell in love with. It sucks to love someone, only for them to do that, then have someone tell them they didn't love them to begin with if they can't overlook them f****g someone else. Please.


Exactly! You no longer loved her enough. Your ego would not allow it. Things aren't always that black and white.


----------



## illwill

Joylush said:


> You've made my point.


I hope no one ever loves me in the utterly ridiculous way you see it.

I dont want anyone who does not love themselves enough to have self respect.

Thats not ego.

And taking any abuse someone delivers to you, with open arms, is down right scary and sad.

I used to work at a abused womens shelter. And your definition is similar to what their husbands were.


----------



## Horizon

ShadowOfDoubt said:


> This is my simplified understanding of infidelity…
> 
> Passion, Love, Respect, Trust, and Commitment are the basic elements of a relationship.
> Passion and Love are from the heart.
> Respect, Trust, and Commitment are from the mind.
> 
> Singularly, it’s Commitment that’s the binding element. Passion and love rise and fall, therefore cannot be trusted. A family unit requires Commitment, Respect, and Trust; not, Passion or Love.
> 
> Within the betrayed, the heart and mind begin an internal war. The heart doesn’t immediately recognize what has happened and won’t believe it. The mind, a logical calculator, sets out to rationalize the imbalances. The mind spends days, months, and years evaluating and reevaluating each detail. The hope is to recover thus ending the torment; rebalance passion, love, respect, trust, and commitment. But it can’t find a way. So it looks to the betrayer for answers. Each new detail, thought, or feeling feeds the cycle.
> 
> The heart won’t let go, therefore it drags one where they do not want to go. One begins to become angry with oneself for the compromises they were forced to make. The humiliation it forces them to endure. Friends and family look on with scorn, give advice, or avoid. The mind begins analyzing its own compromises. Self-esteem is chiseled away.
> 
> I thought of my prior relationship, at the end, this way. Words by Led Zepplin.
> 
> Someone told me there’s a girl out there with love in her eyes and flowers in her hair. The sea was red and the sky was gray, I wonder how tomorrow could ever follow this day.
> …
> Throw me a line if I reach it in time I'll meet you up there where the path runs straight and high. To find a queen without a king they say she plays guitar, cry, and sings. She rides a white mare in the footsteps of dawn. I’m tryin' to find a woman who's never, never, never been born. I’m standing on a hill in my mountain of dreams, Telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.
> 
> I forgave her and I left because I couldn’t solve the equation and I had to put myself back together. I needed my heart and mind as one again.


And these these lyrics from one of my Zep favorites "The Rain Song" will be equally significant for you.

"This is the springtime of my loving - the second season I am to know You are the sunlight in my growing - so little warmth I've felt before. It isn't hard to feel me glowing - I watched the fire that grew so low.

It is the summer of my smiles - flee from me Keepers of the Gloom. Speak to me only with your eyes. It is to you I give this tune. Ain't so hard to recognize - These things are clear to all from time to time.

Talk Talk - I've felt the coldness of my winter
I never thought it would ever go. I cursed the gloom that set upon us. But I know that I love you so

These are the seasons of emotion and like the winds they rise and fall. This is the wonder of devotion - I see the torch we all must hold.

This is the mystery of the quotient - Upon us all a little rain must fall".


----------



## lordmayhem

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


You obviously haven't been here that long. There's many stories of men who rugswept their WW's affair(s). Its usually their initial response - being in denial.

Then the resentment at having done so builds up over the years.

Anyway, you're a drive-by poster.


----------



## Healer

illwill said:


> Calm down. As i clearly wrote "My definition". What about that confused you?


Yeah I didn't get that you were forcing anything on anyone.


----------



## Healer

ConanHub said:


> I don't think men who R after Dday necessarily "tolerate " infidelity. Some take a very firm grip on their spouse and make damn sure their wives never give a repeat performance of cheating.


And how does one make "damn sure" it never happens again? Sadly, that's just impossible, unless you have her chained up in the basement 24/7.

And how do people who R really know for sure the BS never does it again? They don't. I'm sure there are ones who never do again, but if they're capable of it once, they're capable of it again.

That was a big part of not R'ing for me - I wasn't willing to take that chance with someone who I knew I couldn't trust. I'm unwilling to live life policing my wife so she doesn't spread 'em for another guy. I'd rather be alone.


----------



## Healer

Joylush said:


> Exactly! You no longer loved her enough. Your ego would not allow it. Things aren't always that black and white.


Wow, that went right over your head, didn't it?


----------



## vellocet

Joylush said:


> Exactly! You no longer loved her enough. Your ego would not allow it. Things aren't always that black and white.


Ego? Really? Sorry, but you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are speaking.

It has to do with not being able to look her in the face and see the same person that I did love.

Here it is folks, she cheated, but somehow I'm the ****head here because I couldn't live with it.

The mind of a cheater and/or apologist at its finest.


----------



## Philat

Mrs. John Adams said:


> you are absolutely correct...you can never be sure. But then...you can never be sure in any relationship. So being alone is the option you have chosen for you...and in your case...it is the right answer.


Yes, no one can ever be sure. For those who are making a go of it after infidelity it's a matter of acceptable risk vs. reward.


----------



## vellocet

Mrs. John Adams said:


> you are absolutely correct...you can never be sure. But then...you can never be sure in any relationship. So being alone is the option you have chosen for you...and in your case...it is the right answer.


And being alone or never making a commitment IS a way to be damn sure. Can't be cheated on if you aren't committed to anyone.

Of course that isn't practical as I believe a majority of people want a commitment and a lifelong partner if they can find one and that the answer of "you can never be sure" was geared towards those who are in committed relationships.


----------



## vellocet

Mrs. John Adams said:


> no...you are not the bad guy here because you couldn't live with it. You do what you have to do in order to survive the devastation caused by infidelity. There is no right or wrong answer. it is called survival mode....and you are entitled.


Oh, I know. I just have to wonder about old Joylush's motives and why. After reading some of her posts, and seeing she is divorced, my guess is she was too promiscuous and unfaithful for marriage and her husband wanted out.

So rather than see the cheater as the problem, its the problem of the person cheated on. Oh well, after reading up on her, I will just consider the source.


----------



## Squeakr

Get a dog! They never cheat on you and are always happy to see you and please you when you come home (whether you stepped out for 5 seconds or 5 years, a dog doesn't know the difference and is always happy to see you)!


----------



## love=pain

vellocet said:


> Ego? Really? Sorry, but you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are speaking.
> 
> It has to do with not being able to look her in the face and see the same person that I did love.
> 
> Here it is folks, she cheated, but somehow I'm the ****head here because I couldn't live with it.
> 
> The mind of a cheater and/or apologist at its finest.


I completely agree

There is no right or wrong only your opinion and anyone else's, several here have D right away(men and women) giving no chance for reconciliation they knew deep down there was no coming back from this, some have attempted to R and it failed and some have succeeded, and not one of those decisions was wrong.

Just because the path you choose or the one you think is best doesn't mean it will work for me, the information you had at the time of your decision (for those that have never been put in this position sorry your opinion means squat don't care how many books you have read) is what you used for that decision just like I did, no one is wrong for the choice they make at that time later on in hindsight sure but then everyone can say the same thing.

Pieces of the different choices available to me (that others here have chosen) may have fit my situation but only one choice seemed to complete my puzzle, arguing or condemning anyone's choice is ridiculous we are all just trying to find our way in the dark.


----------



## Squeakr

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I like how you think!!!


Spoken for the truth. My dogs treat my WW and me the same. No judgement and nothing but love, honor, companionship, and commitment from them and all they want in return is a little kibble, water, and attention.


----------



## Healer

Mrs. John Adams said:


> you are absolutely correct...you can never be sure. But then...you can never be sure in any relationship. So being alone is the option you have chosen for you...and in your case...it is the right answer.


Meh, I'm dating. I meant I'd rather be alone than be with her.

Of course you can never be sure with anyone, but I know there ARE women who don't cheat, just like there ARE men who don't cheat (I am one of the latter).

Whether or not I allow someone to get that close enough to me to hurt me that bad again remains to be seen.


----------



## vellocet

Mrs. John Adams said:


> As a FWW and in Reconciliation for thirty years...I can tell you it is possible to overcome.



I absolutely agree. Both spouses have to want it. Infidelity for me is a dealbreaker and I wanted nothing to do with it and know the only way for me to overcome it was to leave her.

But for people like you and JA, its different. You both wanted the R and it worked out for you.


----------



## illwill

Dogs, like people dont give unconditional love. You gotta feed em. If not, see how long they stick around.

Sorta like not feeding a relationship. It will leave or die too.


----------



## vellocet

Ah, just did some more reading. So basically if you are cheated on and left your WS, you didn't love them enough to stay and be miserable.

However, according to this same person, if you are a walk away wife, as she was, then its different. You do what you gotta do to. Depends on who is doing the leaving I suppose

Like I said before, consider the source to know not to take their words seriously.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



Healer said:


> Whether or not I allow someone to get that close enough to me to hurt me that bad again remains to be seen.


......that's s huge ......and always potentially painful decision. 

......being the BS .....I think I "did it wrong" ....in that I had my d-day ....and immediately took my WS "back" ...into my heart ....never looking to what the future might bring in the way of emotional baggage and the mine-field that are triggers & memories.

......truth is she was never ever out of my heart. The first 12 years of our marriage were fraught with all kinds of problems ...financial ...estranged families (both sides) ....and me not paying enough attention to my wife's emotional needs ....as well as it coming back in my direction from my wife. Bottom line ...it wasn't a picnic. But I never stopped loving her.....

....skip ahead 19 years to today. I now see that I threw away 19 years of my life ....because I never truly let her back in. Partly because I never got answers from her about the ONS ....which is huge I admit. Partly because i never engaged in good therapy to help me. But, I was also ... always too wary ....terrified ....SCARED ....to allow us to get as close as we should have been. I was ...and to some extent ...frightened to about being destroyed again. 

....it's a definite defense mechanism that kicks in when you've been destroyed. But it can also hurt possible successful R ....or ...potentially wonderful future relationships.

..... damn ...infidelity sucks!!!!


----------



## Squeakr

illwill said:


> Dogs, like people dont give unconditional love. You gotta feed em. If not, see how long they stick around.
> 
> Sorta like not feeding a relationship. It will leave or die too.


Disagree, as there exist too many accounts of dogs sticking around until they starve themselves to death out of loyalty to their masters whom have died gracefully from age and lived alone. Their love is unconditional, but their basic needs for survival can override all other needs and concerns.


----------



## vellocet

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....skip ahead 19 years to today. I now see that I threw away 19 years of my life ....because I never truly let her back in. Partly because I never got answers from her about the ONS


You didn't throw away anything. You can't re-engage with someone who isn't going to be truthful with you. That's on her, not you.


----------



## illwill

Squeakr said:


> Disagree, as there exist too many accounts of dogs sticking around until they starve themselves to death out of loyalty to their masters whom have died gracefully from age and lived alone. Their love is unconditional, but their basic needs for survival can override all other needs and concerns.


What if they are starving and some stranger feeds them? Over and over. Sooner or later...


----------



## Squeakr

illwill said:


> What if they are starving and some stranger feeds them? Over and over. Sooner or later...


Then they develop unconditional love for that new master as well. They aren't only committed to one person and able to only love one person. They have love for lots and pretty much no matter whom that master is, they show unconditional love to them no matter what the master does (think dog fight handlers, animal abusers, etc. they only fight back when they are hurt to protect themselves, otherwise they accept the abuse). 

Just because the dog doesn't live with you anymore, doesn't mean that they no longer love you. When I was younger we gave one of our dogs to my grandparents after theirs died, and that dog loved me the same when I went to their house as she did when she lived at my house, even though they were feeding her now, she never forgot and was always happy to see me when I went to their place.


----------



## Joylush

vellocet said:


> Ego? Really? Sorry, but you haven't the slightest clue as to what you are speaking.
> 
> It has to do with not being able to look her in the face and see the same person that I did love.
> 
> Here it is folks, she cheated, but somehow I'm the ****head here because I couldn't live with it.
> 
> The mind of a cheater and/or apologist at its finest.


You're right. I don't know your circumstances but I can have empathy in both sides. Many men seem to have a problem with that when it comes to the sex issue. 

I wasn't commenting in your particular circumstance because I don't know what it is. Perhaps your wife did not deserve forgiveness. But if you have real love for someone then forgiveness is as much a choice as cheating would be. It all depends in the folks involved, their history, personalities and love (or not) for each other.


----------



## arbitrator

*For those WS's that strayed outside of the boundaries of their marriage, summarily took to street to seek the thrill of getting themselves a little piece of "strange," greatly under the self-justifying mantra that "a little strange never hurt anybody," those people have my utter and total disrespect!

More especially when they come back in and seemingly wonder exactly why everyone is making such a big deal over their prurient actions!*


----------



## vellocet

Joylush said:


> You're right. I don't know your circumstances but I can have empathy in both sides.


You can. I don't. I only have empathy on the WS side if they are demonstrating that they are truly remorseful and wish they could take back what they did. I don't have any empathy for a WS that makes excuses and blames their BS for their decision to cheat.




> Many men seem to have a problem with that when it comes to the sex issue.


And I absolutely do as well. Should I not have a problem with it?




> I wasn't commenting in your particular circumstance because I don't know what it is.


You said that if a man leaves a cheating wife its because he didn't love her to begin with. Sorry, but the onus is on the cheater, not the one who left because there is no way they'd be able to ever forget what they did.




> Perhaps your wife did not deserve forgiveness. But if you have real love for someone then forgiveness is as much a choice as cheating would be.


Forgiving is one thing. Staying is another. You can forgive but still decide you can't be with that person any longer.


----------



## Healer

Joylush said:


> But if you have real love for someone then forgiveness is as much a choice as cheating would be.


Where's the "wrong" button? Good grief.


----------



## illwill

Squeakr said:


> Then they develop unconditional love for that new master as well. They aren't only committed to one person and able to only love one person. They have love for lots and pretty much no matter whom that master is, they show unconditional love to them no matter what the master does (think dog fight handlers, animal abusers, etc. they only fight back when they are hurt to protect themselves, otherwise they accept the abuse).
> 
> Just because the dog doesn't live with you anymore, doesn't mean that they no longer love you. When I was younger we gave one of our dogs to my grandparents after theirs died, and that dog loved me the same when I went to their house as she did when she lived at my house, even though they were feeding her now, she never forgot and was always happy to see me when I went to their place.


Lock your dog in a room with you for two months. Dont feed it. You die. They eat you. By your definition they should simply die of starvation. I watch a lot of Animal Planet. It happens. 

In fact seven dogs did it to their owners in Canada.

The need for food outweighs any and all loyalty. You are giving them waaaaay too much credit. They are not that complex. We will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## illwill

Just because you forgive and love them does not mean you reconcile. 

And just because you reconcile does not mean you forgive and love them. 

Are you serious or having a laugh?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

2ntnuf said:


> Everyone deserves forgiveness.


I am going to disagree and say that's strictly a personal preference. People were taught to believe, in my opinion mainly through religion, that everyone deserves forgiveness. Personally, I think it is a gift and should be given ONLY to someone you feel truly deserves the emotion. Sorry, I think there are people that don't. If you want to that's fine, if you don't that's fine as well. The problem is letting either decision eat you up inside. Nope, I've lived, heard and experienced too many examples of either decision eating someone up.


----------



## Joylush

vellocet said:


> You can. I don't. I only have empathy on the WS side if they are demonstrating that they are truly remorseful and wish they could take back what they did. I don't have any empathy for a WS that makes excuses and blames their BS for their decision to cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And I absolutely do as well. Should I not have a problem with it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You said that if a man leaves a cheating wife its because he didn't love her to begin with. Sorry, but the onus is on the cheater, not the one who left because there is no way they'd be able to ever forget what they did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Forgiving is one thing. Staying is another. You can forgive but still decide you can't be with that person any longer.


My apologies. I think too much was read into what I said. I made a simple comment. A general one not in response to anyone's specific circumstance. Never suggested the wife was never loved but there are circumstances I would suggest should be forgivable but typically a man has a much tougher time forgiving but when the shoe is on the other foot expect to be forgiven themselves. 

Why is this? Why is a man who was a neglectful or abusive husband incapable of having empathy for a neglected or emotionally abused spouse who is vulnerable and makes a very regrettable mistake--who likely has enough guilt to last a lifetime that he is incapable of forgiveness? The double standard is ridiculous. 

Clearly some cases are unforgivable but I dint believe they are in all cases. When you love someone you should love them enough to forgive them even when they make a mistake. Not everyone is capable of that level of empathy and understanding nor does everyone deserve to be given it.

If I had a desire to cheat on a partner I'd end that relationship first--simply out of respect. That doesn't mean I can't see how or why it happens or why it's necessarily unforgivable. Sex is but one way a partner can betray their marriage vows.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Joylush said:


> My apologies. I think too much was read into what I said. I made a simple comment. A general one not in response to anyone's specific circumstance. Never suggested the wife was never loved but there are circumstances I would suggest should be forgivable but typically a man has a much tougher time forgiving but when the shoe is on the other foot expect to be forgiven themselves.
> 
> Why is this? Why is a man who was a neglectful or abusive husband incapable of having empathy for a neglected or emotionally abused spouse who is vulnerable and makes a very regrettable mistake--who likely has enough guilt to last a lifetime that he is incapable of forgiveness? The double standard is ridiculous.
> 
> Clearly some cases are unforgivable but I dint believe they are in all cases. When you love someone you should love them enough to forgive them even when they make a mistake. Not everyone is capable of that level of empathy and understanding nor does everyone deserve to be given it.
> 
> If I had a desire to cheat on a partner I'd end that relationship first--simply out of respect. That doesn't mean I can't see how or why it happens or why it's necessarily unforgivable. Sex is but one way a partner can betray their marriage vows.


Sex is a very significant, irreversible way to break marriage vows. Another way to think of it is that infidelity does not violate marriage vows, it violates THE marriage vow. The most important one....the one that defines marriage itself.


----------



## Joylush

nuclearnightmare said:


> Sex is a very significant, irreversible way to break marriage vows. Another way to think of it is that infidelity does not violate marriage vows, it violates THE marriage vow. The most important one....the one that defines marriage itself.


Not everyone views things the same way of course. I certainly respect your option even if it may not mirror my own. I do agree it's very significant even if I disagree it can and sometimes deserves to be forgiven.


----------



## sammy3

TheFlood117 said:


> Your treatment by you WW was pretty bad. I don't blame you.
> 
> Mine was just stupid and went full bimbo. She's not really nasty or spiteful, she's much, much nicer and way less pessimistic and cold than me. Plus she looks like Elisha Cuthbert and is amazing in the sack. so... I take what I want. And she's down with it. There's still love between us, it's just kinda strange and bit 'odd' right now. She's alright.
> 
> I am still very, very angry with her tho. It's mostly angry rough sex. But she is a great mom and it hasn't interfered with neither of our co-parent dynamic so it's okay. I'm sure there's a blow up moment coming, especially if she finds out some things ole' floods done or who ole' floods done, lol.



Oooh to be a fly on that wall...

-sammy


----------



## DarkHoly

2ntnuf said:


> Everyone deserves forgiveness. Those who ask for it are more likely to get it if they show remorse and make amends. That doesn't mean they have to get back together. That's not what I mean by, "amends". Even though someone asks for it, and makes amends, it's still tough for some to forgive. Each of us understands forgiveness in a different way.
> 
> You may think forgiveness means that everyone is back together and all is forgotten. Another may believe it's being friends and talking and laughing together. Another may believe it just means they will be civil with their WS. None are wrong in and of themselves, but they may not have the meaning that is desired for the one asking, when forgiveness is given. We are all different.


No one deserves forgiveness. That's what makes it forgiveness. You forgive the debt of someone else. If you owe someone money and they decide to have mercy and forgive you, it's not because you deserve it.


----------



## staystrong

I don't know because we had a very brief false R. 

I think I could have forgiven if she had been remorseful and done everything she absolutely could have to be a better wife and deal with my triggers. That didn't happen. I was up to the challenge, I think. 

Now, post-D, there's no chance of forgiveness. I think I'd prefer to carry around the burning hatred than forgive her half-hearted apologies. Unredeemed betrayal is forever, IMO.


----------



## staystrong

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I am so sorry for you. I wish it had turned out better.


Thanks. Me too. 

I'm not as tough as most of the other guys on this board. The 180 was nearly impossible for me due to circumstances. 

I don't think I'll love another like her, but she's fundamentally flawed in the sense she can't stay committed. She does love well, though, until she's disappointed.


----------



## Squeakr

Mrs. John Adams said:


> you know...when I think back...if MR A had done the 180...I don't know that we would have made it. We each have to do whats best for us. What works for some...does not works for others.
> 
> I needed to know that he still loved me and wanted me in spite of what I had done. Had he rejected me...it may have been more than I could take.
> 
> He did what was right for us.
> 
> You gave it a valiant try...thats the best you can do.


But the 180 is for when they are being narcissistic and still acting justified and unremorseful/ unregretful in or about any of their actions. As I understand it, you came clean the next day of your own accord, and you were willing to do whatever it took to right your wrong, so it is a different situation not really calling for the 180.


----------



## survivorwife

Squeakr said:


> But the 180 is for when they are being narcissistic and still acting justified and unremorseful/ unregretful in or about any of their actions. As I understand it, you came clean the next day of your own accord, and you were willing to do whatever it took to right your wrong, so it is a different situation not really calling for the 180.


:iagree:

This is true. In my case, there was no remorse, trickle-truth, gaslighting etc. etc. There was no room for me to accept the situation, to forgive and/or reconcile. In order for me to live with the betrayal, I had no choice but to resort to the 180 (before I even knew what the "180" was). I detached. I focused on what I needed to emotionally survive.

If he had done everything in his power to right the wrong he created because of his infidelity, the 180 would not have been necessary.


----------



## Philat

Mrs. John Adams said:


> REPENT verb (used without object)
> 1.
> to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often followed by of ): He repented after his thoughtless act.
> 2.
> to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.
> verb (used with object)
> 3.
> to remember or regard with self-reproach or contrition: to repent one's injustice to another.
> 4.
> to feel sorry for; regret: to repent an imprudent act.
> 
> 
> 
> sor·ry [sor-ee, sawr-ee] Show IPA
> adjective, sor·ri·er, sor·ri·est.
> 1.
> feeling regret, compunction, sympathy, pity, etc.: to be sorry to leave one's friends; to be sorry for a remark; to be sorry for someone in trouble.
> 2.
> regrettable or deplorable; unfortunate; tragic: a sorry situation; to come to a sorry end.
> 
> 
> re·morse [ri-mawrs] Show IPA
> noun
> 1.
> deep and painful regret for wrongdoing; compunction.
> 2.
> Obsolete . pity; compassion.
> 
> what do you think?


Remorse is pretty good, too. But these definitions show why a simple "I'm sorry" usually doesn't cut it.


----------



## Philat

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I feel like that is what I have done.


Without question.


----------



## Philat

If you consider forgiveness as a gift to yourself, for your own well-being, the question of whether your betrayer deserves it or not becomes moot.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Everyone deserves forgiveness.


I like your posts and agree most of the time.

But I can't agree with this. There simply, to me, are just some people that don't deserve it whatsoever.


----------



## theroad

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, I know. Until just a few years ago, I thought all guys got hit on, not necessarily by the hottest girls, but by women that were more or less the same rank as the guy. Now I know that is not the way it works.


Women all want the hottest that they can get.


----------



## vellocet

Joylush said:


> Never suggested the wife was never loved but there are circumstances I would suggest should be forgivable


Such as?




> but typically a man has a much tougher time forgiving but when the shoe is on the other foot expect to be forgiven themselves.


Who said this? I certainly don't feel this way. My feelings would hold for a man or a woman. I don't expect women to forgive a cheating man, and honestly, I suggest they dump them on their sorry asses.



> Why is this? Why is a man who was a neglectful or abusive husband incapable of having empathy for a neglected or emotionally abused spouse who is vulnerable and makes a very regrettable mistake


You are changing the goal posts here. Now you are tying it in with a man that is neglectful or abusive as opposed to why a man in general can't forgive cheating especially when sex is involved.

Why is this? If there is neglect, or the furnace fires simply aren't as hot as they use to be because family obligations take over, then you talk about it, you fix it.

But once you go outside the marriage to get a piece of c**k, then all bets are off. Don't expect things to be worked on after you've rode another man. If reconciliation happens, then it will be up to both spouses. But if a man cannot get past the images of his wife f****g another man/men, then NOBODY can legitimately look down on them for that. That's just ridiculous.




> --who likely has enough guilt to last a lifetime that he is incapable of forgiveness? The double standard is ridiculous.


Again, show us who expects forgiveness, but won't give it. I haven't seen anyone on this forum think that way.

And again, I can forgive, but I don't have to stay, and I won't. 




> Clearly some cases are unforgivable but I dint believe they are in all cases. When you love someone you should love them enough to forgive them even when they make a mistake.


If the WS loved the BS, they wouldn't have f****d someone else. Works both ways if you believe the above is true.


----------



## vellocet

nuclearnightmare said:


> Sex is a very significant, irreversible way to break marriage vows. Another way to think of it is that infidelity does not violate marriage vows, it violates THE marriage vow. The most important one....the one that defines marriage itself.


Exactly.

When I was married, if my wife neglected me, as she absolutely did, then it wouldn't be anything I couldn't recover from. If we talked it out and things got better, that neglect of the marriage wouldn't scar me for life. It isn't so emotionally damaging that I would dwell on it for years to come. I can recover from that type of so-called broken vow, and very easily I might add.

In contrast, if my x-wife had f****d other men, as she absolutely did, then THAT is something I would never forget and would be the source of major pain pretty much for the rest of my life, unless I leave her, which I absolutely did.


----------



## theroad

vellocet said:


> Ok, lets not go back and forth of what a "real man" should be.
> 
> You have real men that reconcile, and those that don't.


A real man knows what is a deal breaker and what is not a deal breaker to him.

Standing by his convictions in the face of adversity is a real man. The choice to recover or ditch his WW does not imply his man hood status.


----------



## Healer

Side note: Overcooking the pasta is a "mistake". Sleeping through your alarm is a "mistake". Spreading your legs and inserting a penis that doesn't belong to your husband into your vagina...that's no "mistake". It's willful, calculated, cruel deceit and betrayal. It's straight up abusive to the BS.

Mmmkay thanks.


----------



## illwill

theroad said:


> A real man knows what is a deal breaker and what is not a deal breaker to him.
> 
> Standing by his convictions in the face of adversity is a real man. The choice to recover or ditch his WW does not imply his man hood status.


Whether you R or D its all about how you do it. As a man with self respect or a rugsweeping coward.

Both can apply here.

You can divorce like a coward or reconcile like a man.


----------



## Philat

Healer said:


> Side note: Overcooking the pasta is a "mistake". Sleeping through your alarm is a "mistake". Spreading your legs and inserting a penis that doesn't belong to your husband into your vagina...that's no "mistake". It's willful, calculated, cruel deceit and betrayal. It's straight up abusive to the BS.
> 
> Mmmkay thanks.


This cannot be emphasized enough.


----------



## theroad

illwill said:


> Whether you R or D its all about how you do it. As a man with self respect or a rugsweeping coward.
> 
> Both can apply here.
> 
> You can divorce like a coward or reconcile like a man.


Real men do not just recover.

Real men also divorce.

There is no obligation to recover or divorce. Neither decision is to be looked down upon.


----------



## Squeakr

illwill said:


> Lock your dog in a room with you for two months. Dont feed it. You die. They eat you. By your definition they should simply die of starvation. I watch a lot of Animal Planet. It happens.
> 
> In fact seven dogs did it to their owners in Canada.
> 
> *The need for food outweighs any and all loyalty.* You are giving them waaaaay too much credit. They are not that complex. We will have to agree to disagree.



Your whole point can be summed up in the bolded. Which I had previously stated in my statement that their primal survival instinct will overweigh all other needs, but it still doesn't mean that they lose all love and loyalty, they just override it to survive (the love is still there).


----------



## vellocet

illwill said:


> Dogs, like people dont give unconditional love. You gotta feed em. If not, see how long they stick around.
> 
> Sorta like not feeding a relationship. It will leave or die too.


Well this dog didn't get fed in his relationship, yet still managed to remain loyal and faithful.

So I don't think the analogy applies. You have to eat to live. I didn't have to have everyone of my little needs met in order to maintain my integrity as a husband and father.


----------



## illwill

vellocet said:


> Well this dog didn't get fed in his relationship, yet still managed to remain loyal and faithful.
> 
> So I don't think the analogy applies. You have to eat to live. I didn't have to have everyone of my little needs met in order to maintain my integrity as a husband and father.


Not that i care.


----------



## illwill

Squeakr said:


> Your whole point can be summed up in the bolded. Which I had previously stated in my statement that their primal survival instinct will overweigh all other needs, but it still doesn't mean that they lose all love and loyalty, they just override it to survive (the love is still there).


Refer to my last point about agreeing to disagree.


----------



## illwill

theroad said:


> Real men do not just recover.
> 
> Real men also divorce.
> 
> There is no obligation to recover or divorce. Neither decision is to be looked down upon.


Reread what i wrote, sir. Real men divorce and reconcile. Its how you do it that matters. I divorced, so obviously...


----------



## calvin

Real men divorce,real men reconcile,its a choice that a real man thinks about and
weighs in his mind.
A real man does't come to a snap decision,he gives it time,he pours over what's best
for him and his family.
I feel the decision mostly lyes with how the WS is righting the terrible wrong.
How remorseful and how long? What steps does the WS take to prove they are worthy
of this chance?How,how,how...how?
Every man is different.
I fault no man for R'ing or D'ing,infidelity is kinda the same and then again its not.
Betrayal however is betrayal.
It depends on the circumstances unless you are a totally needy loser who is scared sh!tless.
Forget? Not ever gonna happen,forgive? That's very possible.
Its possible to move on and have a WS who has learned a huge lesson in life and realizes
the pain they spread around so much that they will never do it again.
If it happens a second time then there is no forgiving for me.
Hope isn't a plan but you can't live without it either.
Sorry...rambling but me and the wife continue to get better,I see others here who
continue to get better also.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kristin2349

illwill said:


> Reread what i wrote, sir. Real men divorce and reconcile. Its how you do it that matters. I divorced, so obviously...



The post you replied to seems like a lame calendar quote. (Not your reply)

Real men do what feels right for themselves AND their family.

Real people make mistakes, some can be forgiven...others don't get or deserve it , life moves on either way.


----------



## illwill

calvin said:


> Real men divorce,real men reconcile,its a choice that a real man thinks about and
> weighs in his mind.
> A real man does't come to a snap decision,he gives it time,he pours over what's best
> for him and his family.
> I feel the decision mostly lyes with how the WS is righting the terrible wrong.
> How remorseful and how long? What steps does the WS take to prove they are worthy
> of this chance?How,how,how...how?
> Every man is different.
> I fault no man for R'ing or D'ing,infidelity is kinda the same and then again its not.
> Betrayal however is betrayal.
> It depends on the circumstances unless you are a totally needy loser who is scared sh!tless.
> Forget? Not ever gonna happen,forgive? That's very possible.
> Its possible to move on and have a WS who has learned a huge lesson in life and realizes
> the pain they spread around so much that they will never do it again.
> If it happens a second time then there is no forgiving for me.
> Hope isn't a plan but you can't live without it either.
> Sorry...rambling but me and the wife continue to get better,I see others here who
> continue to get better also.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There it is. Said perfectly.


----------



## missthelove2013

Its not the sex so much'
Its the lies...deceit, manipulation, the willingness to risk the family unit, finances, for a strange donger...

If my wife had come to me and said "I want to have strange donger, but wont do it behind your back"...I would not have been cheated on and would not have filed for divorce...I MIGHT have agreed even to a temporary open marriage...but she went behind my back, hid it from me...cant forgive that


----------



## sammy3

Healer said:


> Side note: Overcooking the pasta is a "mistake". Sleeping through your alarm is a "mistake". Spreading your legs and inserting a penis that doesn't belong to your husband into your vagina...that's no "mistake". It's willful, calculated, cruel deceit and betrayal. It's straight up abusive to the BS.
> 
> Mmmkay thanks.


Sorry guys, and inserting a penis that belongs to your husband, and inserting into a vagina that does not belong to the wife,is as willful, calculated, cruel, deceitful, and felt just as deeply as betrayal. It too is just as abusive. 

-sammy


----------



## kristin2349

missthelove2013 said:


> Its not the sex so much'
> Its the lies...deceit, manipulation, the willingness to risk the family unit, finances, for a strange donger...
> 
> If my wife had come to me and said "I want to have strange donger, but wont do it behind your back"...I would not have been cheated on and would not have filed for divorce...I MIGHT have agreed even to a temporary open marriage...but she went behind my back, hid it from me...cant forgive that



:iagree:

I can understand the hormonal, primal drive...I can wrap my head around certain things. The lies are really tough. Betrayal of that sort, I've not been able to forgive, in the past. 

But everyone has their own line. There is never a one size fits all approach to anything in life.


----------



## calvin

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?


 Moving on takes a long time as does forgivness but it can come and does under
the right circumstances.
Its the forget part that just won't happen.
No one forgets witnessing a death,or suffering.
Its burned into your brain like a cattle iron,the pain won't be forgotten.
Men can forgive though,its hard.
I don't think us men are any different than women when it comes to infidelity.
Its just hard all around for everyone,an A starts off a chain reaction,or dominos.
It has to run its course in a way,once its been set it motion,it follows a path til the
last domino falls.
Forgivness is setting them all back up again but you place them more carefully
and you chose a much different path.
If that makes sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## YupItsMe

I over generalize to address your derogatory, one size fits all question about men (as in every single one of them, which is ridiculous since we are not all the same). 

Why can't women (as in ever single one of them) keep their legs together when in a committed relationship instead of lying, sneaking and cheating? 

The answer is most women can so my question is just as ignorant as yours is. 

Grrr!


----------



## Vanguard

Said I wasn't going to post anymore but I was checking in and saw this.

Forgiveness is never anything that someone can demand. Forgiveness isn't earned, or worked for. It's mercy. So when you ask "Why can't he forgive me for cheating?" you might as well ask why the bank won't just forgive you your $50,000.00 loan. Because the debt is upon you, not them. You're the one at fault. If they pack up and leave there is nothing wrong with that- it doesn't say anything bad about them. 

If they forgive and move on with you, that is the anomaly. Ma'am, you shouldn't be asking why he can't forgive you. You should be asking yourself why you should be forgiven.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Vanguard said:


> Said I wasn't going to post anymore but I was checking in and saw this.
> 
> Forgiveness is never anything that someone can demand. Forgiveness isn't earned, or worked for. It's mercy. So when you ask "Why can't he forgive me for cheating?" you might as well ask why the bank won't just forgive you your $50,000.00 loan. Because the debt is upon you, not them. You're the one at fault. If they pack up and leave there is nothing wrong with that- it doesn't say anything bad about them.
> 
> If they forgive and move on with you, that is the anomaly. Ma'am, you shouldn't be asking why he can't forgive you. You should be asking yourself why you should be forgiven.


This is one side of it. Humans are wired for emotional connection. With a few exceptions, it is extremely painful for the WS to internalize the damage they caused the BS. This is the entire reason for the rationalizing, blame shifting behavior post-DD. Even if the BS has the grace to forgive the WS, the BS must consider if the WS has the ability to forgive themselves. Reconciliation requires both sides of forgiveness. Both partners must find their way to wholeness, much easier said than done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Philat

Mrs. John Adams said:


> And why can't men keep their **** in their pants...same difference


Ooh, nice!


----------



## theroad

YupItsMe said:


> I over generalize to address your derogatory, one size fits all question about men (as in every single one of them, which is ridiculous since we are not all the same).
> 
> Why can't women (as in ever single one of them) keep their legs together when in a committed relationship instead of lying, sneaking and cheating?
> 
> The answer is most women can so my question is just as ignorant as yours is.
> 
> Grrr!


Statistics show that 78% of marriages survive an affair.

Though knowing that fact I have no problem with the OP's question. It is the OP's perception.

I assume he is a male due to the name of stu.

And to over generalize most men can get over an EA way easier then their WW having a PA.

And just the opposite for BW's to find it harder to get over her WH's EA then his PA.

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. We are different.

Your response is what is ignorant. He is having issues coming to terms with his triggers and mind movies of his WW and the OM doing the mattress mambo, the back seat Chevy Cha Cha, the Buick bosso nova, hotel hully gully, the Macarena motel, and never forget the all time crowd pleaser of the WW waltzing the OM in the BH's own bed.


----------



## kristin2349

Jung_admirer said:


> This is one side of it. Humans are wired for emotional connection. With a few exceptions, it is extremely painful for the WS to internalize the damage they caused the BS. This is the entire reason for the rationalizing, blame shifting behavior post-DD. Even if the BS has the grace to forgive the WS, the BS must consider if the WS has the ability to forgive themselves. Reconciliation requires both sides of forgiveness. Both partners must find their way to wholeness, much easier said than done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: perfectly stated IMO.


----------



## tulsy

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and *can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget*?


I doubt you could ultimately determine that men have a harder time dealing with the knowledge...I would assume that women are just as devastated by this kind of betrayal...maybe woman are more accepting of it, and are more willing to try and put it behind them in attempts to salvage the relationship? 

I can't speak for women, but as a man, personally, I don't really believe in "forgive and forget". Given the choice, I would move on alone, every time. I don't owe the cheater forgiveness. It does nothing for me, and I believe it sends the wrong message. To me it's the same as saying, "It's okay, what you did to me", but it's not okay. 

There are literally billions of women out there, why stay with a cheater, and why grant them forgiveness for the ultimate betrayal? 

I grew up seeing lots of women who would rug-sweep their guys affairs, but now-a-days, I see just as many men rug-sweeping. I don't really get it. 

If someone screws around on me, I don't have to ever forgive them. I figure they don't deserve me in their life any longer.

It's still hard to break-up with someone, or even divorcing someone, but I truly believe it's much harder to live with what they did. By leaving them, at least they know that when push come to shove, you shoved them away. 

That's just how I operate. I don't keep triggers hanging around me. I love to be happy, laugh, travel, eat and have sex. Now why would I continue to share those good times with a cheater?

I wouldn't. Not ever. Just my 2 cents.


The OP just seems like another guy trying to live with his wife's betrayal. He can't stand living with it every day, but for some reason(s), he holds on to this notion of making it work with his cheater wife. As far as I can see, the cheater doesn't deserve trust, and how can you stay married to someone you can't trust?


----------



## vellocet

tulsy said:


> I doubt you could ultimately determine that men have a harder time dealing with the knowledge...I would assume that women are just as devastated by this kind of betrayal...maybe woman are more accepting of it, and are more willing to try and put it behind them in attempts to salvage the relationship?


And you could be absolutely correct. I think the problem with this thread is it seems as if there is an insinuation that a man is being unreasonable to feel this way in not wanting to forgive a woman that has given him a real gift of envisioning her being pleasured by another man. We just are the worst if we cannot forgive that, and what the lack of forgiveness is somehow worse than the physical affair itself.

Oh, that and we must not have loved them enough to not forgive, and the cheater must have loved us to do what they did


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> And you could be absolutely correct. I think the problem with this thread is it seems as if there is an insinuation that a man is being unreasonable to feel this way in not wanting to forgive a woman that has given him a real gift of envisioning her being pleasured by another man. We just are the worst if we cannot forgive that, and what the lack of forgiveness is somehow worse than the physical affair itself.
> 
> Oh, that and we must not have loved them enough to not forgive, and the cheater must have loved us to do what they did


Yeah. How dare we???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## learning to love myself

ConanHub said:


> The whole reason you are in this mess is because you decided to explore your inner slvt instead of working on your relationship or divorcing.
> 
> I agree that women can simply fvck just to fvck.


I know there is a hand full of you men on here that live by the theory that life is black and white and that's fine for you!! 

However life is full of grey, You don't know me and I don't have the time to write the most alarming best seller out there. I make no excuses for my selfish cheating and I should have divorced my husband.

I worked on my marriage for 23 years and wasn't afraid to beg him for love it wears a person down to be with someone that sees no reason to change and still doesn't see how denying someone sex and affection for many, many years would make someone look elsewhere.

I was not subtle in my unhappiness and let him know that I needed him. He has no one left in his life family/friend wise and
I allowed my guilt of divorcing him and leaving him with no one to love, shadow what was right. 

BTW I'm the only one supporting him as well.....


----------



## vellocet

learning to love myself said:


> I know there is a hand full of you men on here that live by the theory that life is black and white and that's fine for you!!


Your right, that is fine for us. Serves us quite well.

Before any cheating goes on, there are various shades of gray, and things can be discussed, worked on, or we go our separate ways.

But once cheating occurs, it becomes VERY black and white because that which could have been worked on becomes nullified by the cheating, for those of us that see it that way.

The whole, "everything isn't black and white" is 9 times out of 10 spoken by the person who REALLY f'd up by going outside the marriage.



> you men


:lol:


----------



## learning to love myself

Hmm I disagree! 

My parents who have been married for 52 Years (No Cheating)taught me that life has to be shades of grey as two people will never see eye to eye.

I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!

My husband has been telling me the sky is green for years and though I know he is wrong and to save a fight, I would say it is a blue green. 
Now he knows he is saying its green to irritate me and he is wanting to pick a fight for no specific reason, I try to come up with a way to not state he is wrong and to defuse the situation..... Hence looking for shades of grey to a black and white person.


----------



## theroad

There is rug sweeping by the BH because he was not the one that had the affair and does not want his marriage to end.

So rug sweeping is about the only plan a BH can come up with to save his marriage. It is not a good plan. About the worst course of action he can take.

Many a BH did not have much of a game yet they got the girl of their dreams. They have no understanding of affairs and how to fight them and recover a marriage.

They are no match for the fight in front of them. Though they man up and step into the recovery ring with the little tools they have.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Everyone KNOWS going into marriage that adultery is either

1. A deal breaker
Or
2. A potential deal breaker
Someone that cheats then is willing to risk their marriage for the experience. When they lose the bet, and actually do lose their marriage, they have no one to blame but themselves


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: Why can't men forgive and forget their partners infidelity?*



nuclearnightmare said:


> Everyone KNOWS going into marriage that adultery is either
> 
> 1. A deal breaker
> Or
> 2. A potential deal breaker
> Someone that cheats then is willing to risk their marriage for the experience. When they lose the bet, and actually do lose their marriage, they have no one to blame but themselves


Yes the "forsaking all others" part of the nuptials defines monogamy quite explicitly. The "love, honor, cherish" part seems to be where spouses sometimes don't meet in the middle.


----------



## Healer

sammy3 said:


> Sorry guys, and inserting a penis that belongs to your husband, and inserting into a vagina that does not belong to the wife,is as willful, calculated, cruel, deceitful, and felt just as deeply as betrayal. It too is just as abusive.
> 
> -sammy


Of course it is. No argument here.


----------



## vellocet

learning to love myself said:


> Hmm I disagree!
> 
> My parents who have been married for 52 Years (No Cheating)taught me that life has to be shades of grey as two people will never see eye to eye.
> 
> I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!


Absolutely, life is a compromise and there are several shades of gray.....BEFORE someone made the choice to F someone else.(for some of us anyway)

Once that happens, it becomes VERY black and white. Depends on whether cheating is a dealbreaker.

For those where its not, then there shades of gray.

For those that cheating is a dealbreaker, its very black and white and neither way of looking at it is wrong.

If there is a problem in a relationship, I'm open, I can be talked with. Once a partner of mine goes off and accepts another man's d!ck in her, all bets are off and the shades of gray go away.

And again, the "not everything is black and white" is 9 times out of 10 spoken by those that F'd someone other than their spouse.


----------



## Married but Happy

For me, once a partner fails to love, honor, cherish, all bets are off _as well_. There is no hierarchy of vows, some of which you can let slide at will.


----------



## Clay2013

I think it really all comes down to what you are willing to put up with. What you really think you are worth as a person. If staying with someone that cheated on you is worth it then that is what you have to do. I tried. I failed. I just do not have it in me to give that part of me anymore. I would rather just move on and learn to love someone new again. In my eyes I am worth it for a woman to be faithful to. If she disagrees then that is her choice but she had better pack her bags when she makes that choice. I threw my xW out over a phone call. It did not become fully clear to just what was going on until I walked in and looked at her computer screen. I am sure that helped her going out the door but my gut had already told me something was seriously wrong. 

Shes gone now and my life is so much better. I hope others can move on and find happiness too. 

I lean more and more everyday on the Black and White point of view. 

Clay


----------



## DarkHoly

learning to love myself said:


> Hmm I disagree!
> 
> My parents who have been married for 52 Years (No Cheating)taught me that life has to be shades of grey as two people will never see eye to eye.
> 
> I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!
> 
> My husband has been telling me the sky is green for years and though I know he is wrong and to save a fight, I would say it is a blue green.
> Now he knows he is saying its green to irritate me and he is wanting to pick a fight for no specific reason, I try to come up with a way to not state he is wrong and to defuse the situation..... Hence looking for shades of grey to a black and white person.


Ambiguous metaphors are all you have because you know deep down that your stance is as susceptible to the light of truth as a mannequin trying to pass as a human being. Your plastic joints and glassed eyes show. 

Your name is ironic. You learned to love yourself proficiently a long, long time ago.


----------



## sammy3

vellocet said:


> And you could be absolutely correct. I think the problem with this thread is it seems as if there is an insinuation that a man is being unreasonable to feel this way in not wanting to forgive a woman that has given him a real gift of envisioning her being pleasured by another man. We just are the worst if we cannot forgive that, and what the lack of forgiveness is somehow worse than the physical affair itself.
> 
> Oh, that and we must not have loved them enough to not forgive, and the cheater must have loved us to do what they did


:iagree: (( all genders))

-sammy


----------



## Healer

learning to love myself said:


> I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!


But spreading for another dude is. Got it.


----------



## arbitrator

*And another way at looking at marital infidelity is that by committing the act, the WS, does it all too often to self-servingly "contaminate" the marital union to later force it's final dissolution, no matter how bad the resulting pain is for the BS!*


----------



## SteveK

michzz said:


> To be blunt, no man likes to realize that he has put his junk where the fluids of another man still are located.
> 
> You ladies who think a quick rinse out suffices, and some of us didn't even get that "nicety", you're mistaken.
> 
> It's revolting to contemplate, that is it in a nutshell.


What I find so true in this comment as graphic as it is, is that back in July of 2013, when I uncovered that my wife's EA was here in the US and she had been meeting him at his hotel, where she claims it was not physical. They had a room with a suite area and they were just friends at that point. She claims it did not become physical until this past February when it was the third time he came to the US to see her and the fourth time they had started texting and talking behind my back.

Well back in July when I caught her she got so upset and begged me to not leave. She then gave herself to me and as she is in Peri-Menopause we usually use some method of protection, well this time we did not, and knowing that after wards she was going to go meet him and tell him to go home I finished the biblical way. Well she was upset because she said she could still get pregnant etc. I later found out that when she went to his room and told him what had happened he verbally assaulted me to her me. He told her I was a sicko, a pervert etc...Well no you POSPOM, I did what any self respecting caveman would do, I made sure that you could not get what you wanted on that last day, you figured she may give herself to you and I messed that up. Can you believe that on DD number three when she ran off with him, she told me....imagine how he felt up until last night we had never been intimate and he knew that you and I had a very active sex life these past 12 months!! HER POSOM was upset that she was having sex with the man she lost her virginity to and had been married to for 27 YEARS...and she tells me he is more normal then me and that's why she loves him...WWHHHAATTT???:scratchhead:


----------



## bigtone128

fog talk!


----------



## nickgtg

learning to love myself said:


> I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!


So when a spouse screws another person outside the marriage, the other person is supposed to "compromise" by being okay with it?

Great logic.


----------



## thummper

vellocet said:


> *Do you think you can forget the vision of your wife sliding up and down on another man's c**k moaning in pleasure? Her sucking him off? You get the picture.*Never will a man be able to forget. Forgive? That depends on the man and I won't best a man for doing either. But for me, the relationship is then over.


Vellocet you stated it all very clearly as far as I would be concerned. "But honey, it was just sex, I still love you so very much!" Bull shlt!!! No way. Wouldn't even have to think about it. *No forgiveness, ever!* No second chances. Absolutely no reconciliation. No phony marriage counseling. Divorce immediately. I'd be laughing at her pleading, begging and crocodile tears as I slammed the door behind me.


----------



## SteveK

nickgtg said:


> So when a spouse screws another person outside the marriage, the other person is supposed to "compromise" by being okay with it?
> 
> Great logic.


Wifey told me today that they actually were never intimate until the last day of their trip to Israel. ****, I wish I never chased her off. She claims no intercorse until we are divorced. It is her moral belief and his relgious belief. She said all shes done is some petting and he has a big issue because of his diabetes and low-T. I knew when I heard his message last year when he said "Baby I am not about the Flesh" that he was impotent. Now of course I keep thinking he had his disgusting dirty fingers in my wife...It just disgust me..

She told me its only been a few times and he is not pleasing her she has to get herself off. Wow, this is a women who I could get off two-three times a week. I am sure he is doing Oral...to get her off. Would you fellas deal with this, she is 90% ready to come back to me.


----------



## bandit.45

Steve....

Have your thread moved here to CWI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nickgtg

SteveK said:


> Wifey told me today that they actually were never intimate until the last day of their trip to Israel. ****, I wish I never chased her off. She claims no intercorse until we are divorced. It is her moral belief and his relgious belief. She said all shes done is some petting and he has a big issue because of his diabetes and low-T. I knew when I heard his message last year when he said "Baby I am not about the Flesh" that he was impotent. Now of course I keep thinking he had his disgusting dirty fingers in my wife...It just disgust me..
> 
> She told me its only been a few times and he is not pleasing her she has to get herself off. Wow, this is a women who I could get off two-three times a week. I am sure he is doing Oral...to get her off. Would you fellas deal with this, she is 90% ready to come back to me.


Steve, her moral beliefs sound familiar to those of Bill Clinton. She says no intercourse, but if he's giving her oral and using his fingers on her, that's sex.

How would I deal with it? I wouldn't deal with it, I would divorce her immediately. I'm of the opinion that once a marriage has been destroyed by infidelity I want no part of it.

I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life worrying about what shes' doing, or who she's doing. I don't want the stress and anxiety that go along with that.

There are plenty of women out there who want exactly what you have to offer. Only you can determine if you can live the rest of your life with a woman that was unfaithful to you.


----------



## xakulax

learning to love myself said:


> .
> 
> *I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!*




Complete and utter nonsense. This isn't the 1930's you have a right to respect yourself enough leave.


----------



## TheFlood117

stu1 said:


> Why do men seem to have a much harder time emotionally dealing with the knowledge that their girlfriend and/or wife had a physical relationship with another guy and can't let it go and just move on and forgive and forget?



Evolution, natural selection and programing. 

The Human Male, in terms of sexuality and nature is programed to own their mate and feel as if they have "won the prize" so to speak when they choose to mate with a female and create a family unit. 

When that female gives her body to another man, it is against OUR PROGRAMING as a Human Male to accept it, forgive it and "suck it up", back in the day without social restraints and the term "civilized society" The pattern would go like this for if a woman would cheat on her male. 

Male meets female. Male and Female mate, have offspring. They become mates and spouses. 

Female meets other male. Mates with said other male. 

Male finds out, kills other male, and maybe kills or dominates female. 

Now, despite all the social norms of a civilized society. Males still have the "animal" brain. They still have programming that tells them, it is not normal to continue to mate with wondering female that has given her body to another male. 

It is, what it is.


----------



## BashfulB

I have fully forgiven my cheating ex wife, and I have let go of all the anger. She tore my world apart and treated me cruelly. I left her, cut of all contact except for e-mails and one visit to see her in the county jail (she was arrested for a drug charge). 

I hope my ex comes out of her drug addiction, gets the help she needs and cleans up her life. I truly want her to be safe and happy. I don't wish any ill-will on her. Why? Because life is too damn short for me to carry all that hate around. 

But just because I forgive her does not mean I have to keep her in my life.


----------



## carpenoctem

BashfulBull said:


> I have fully forgiven my cheating ex wife, and I have let go of all the anger. She tore my world apart and treated me cruelly. I left her, cut of all contact except for e-mails and one visit to see her in the county jail (she was arrested for a drug charge).
> 
> I hope my ex comes out of her drug addiction, gets the help she needs and cleans up her life. I truly want her to be safe and happy. I don't wish any ill-will on her. Why? Because life is too damn short for me to carry all that hate around.
> 
> *But just because I forgive her does not mean I have to keep her in my life.*



It might more correct to say you could forgive her so completely BECAUSE you did not keep her in your life.

There is a lesson in there for all BSs.


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## Trying2figureitout

I am a man and I already let it go..took a week.


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## vellocet

Trying2figureitout said:


> I am a man and I already let it go..took a week.


I think a lot of men can forgive an EA, which is what I read of your story that your wife had an EA.

But for a lot of us, once it crosses the PA realm, forget it. The OM can have her after that. I think the thread more deals with forgiving a PA as noted in the first post.

But when it comes to an EA, I don't know. The chances aren't good, even though I see an EA to be just as bad


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## SteveK

nickgtg said:


> Steve, her moral beliefs sound familiar to those of Bill Clinton. She says no intercourse, but if he's giving her oral and using his fingers on her, that's sex.
> 
> How would I deal with it? I wouldn't deal with it, I would divorce her immediately. I'm of the opinion that once a marriage has been destroyed by infidelity I want no part of it.
> 
> I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my life worrying about what shes' doing, or who she's doing. I don't want the stress and anxiety that go along with that.
> 
> There are plenty of women out there who want exactly what you have to offer. Only you can determine if you can live the rest of your life with a woman that was unfaithful to you.


Her mother was unfaithful for one year with a religious leader as well..is this crap,genetic or what?


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## arbitrator

hambone said:


> I think it has to do with the fact that the average man can separate love and sex. Women tend to equate love and sex.
> 
> I've heard females frequently say that they could never make love to someone they didn't love. Is that true? Maybe not but by saying it, they have convinced men that it's true.
> 
> A wayward man can say, "It was just sex... she means nothing to me".
> 
> IMO, women can't make that argument as convincingly as men do...
> 
> 
> Plus, many women are more logical about this situation than men are. Many women will weight the situation out... "He's the father of my children... a good provider etc. etc. etc."
> 
> Men tend to be more emotional.. they go straight to divorce.
> 
> Now look... I'm making generalities.. I'm sure there are many exceptions to these generalities.


*But the sad and hard truth about it, Ham, are that those "generalities" of yours are pretty well "spot-on!" IMHO, you haven't lied yet!*


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## vellocet

learning to love myself said:


> Hmm I disagree!
> 
> My parents who have been married for 52 Years (No Cheating)taught me that life has to be shades of grey as two people will never see eye to eye.
> 
> I was brought up to believe you marry once and you do your best to compromise, DIVORCE IS NOT AN OPTION!
> 
> My husband has been telling me the sky is green for years and though I know he is wrong and to save a fight, I would say it is a blue green.
> Now he knows he is saying its green to irritate me and he is wanting to pick a fight for no specific reason



If the "sky is green" comments are in reference to the situation of you cheating on him, then he isn't picking a fight for no specific reason. The reason is that you cheated on him and he isn't going to concede to your "its not black and white" way of looking at it. Again, the "its not black and white" 9 times out of 10 are spoken by those that went outside the marriage and want to put some sort of "reason" or "excuse" as to why they did what they did.

Obviously your H can't forget what you did to him and it doesn't matter whether or not there are shades of gray to the situation as he sees it. He is justified for feeling the way he feels.


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## illwill

vellocet said:


> If the "sky is green" comments are in reference to the situation of you cheating on him, then he isn't picking a fight for no specific reason. The reason is that you cheated on him and he isn't going to concede to your "its not black and white" way of looking at it. Again, the "its not black and white" 9 times out of 10 are spoken by those that went outside the marriage and want to put some sort of "reason" or "excuse" as to why they did what they did.
> 
> Obviously your H can't forget what you did to him and it doesn't matter whether or not there are shades of gray to the situation as he sees it. He is justified for feeling the way he feels.


Absolutely. If i was a man who took back a cheating wife, and she did not now understand how black and white infidelity is, i would be very worried.

Black, White, Red, Asain, African, rich or poor it is the same.

Divorce before you cheat. No excuses. It truly is that simple. If my wife had done this we would still be best friends. 

The color grey is for cowards.


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