# Challenges of merging established lives and households....?



## Bobwire (Jan 27, 2016)

Please bare with me as I try to explain this..... My wife and I have been married a year, overall things have gone well but we still have this challenge we are dealing with. She has a very good 100k a year job and a part time business that nets 70k per year ( that I help with but was established before I came along). And I in the last 6 months went to work for myself, with her blessings ahead of time. I left a 70k a year stressful 1.5 hour commute 20 year career, albeit successful.... it was time we both agreed. Now I make approx 50-60k a year as a self employed 1 person show of a business. I own my home and large parcel of property outright-free and clear. She has a home and has a pretty substantial mortgage ($2000) per month. Don't get me wrong it's nice.... Before we got married I offered to build any and all accommodations she would need to operate her part time business at my place (no debt). In turn she could rent her place etc. And what she does is not location specific and both are 15 min apart. She said no. So I pulled up stakes and moved to her house to reside. My business related things are still at my place and will continue to be. Doing so was a downer I admit.... She had not lived in her location that long and was purchased with her X husband. A year has passed..... and we have had minor challenges to say the least. I pay for the health insurance for everyone, half the electric, half the incidentals/groceries, trash service, and any eating out. We each pay our own cell phone bills, separate car insurance. Bare in mind we don't have car payments.... For the better part of a year I left my house open, and recently rented it out to a family member that fell on hard times whom I trust explicitly. We agreed on a price that is fair and covers approx 75% of the annual expenses for the property consisting of property taxes and insurance ($12,000). Now the challenge..... she says recently "you" need to pay half of "my" mortgage. I asked a few questions.... (She feels slighted because I'm collecting rent now). So I asked how she wanted it to work and received limited feedback at best. In turn I asked her if she was going to pay half the property taxes and insurance on my place? She gave me a very quick NO..... I have no stake in her property, my name isn't on it and I have no ties at all. So in turn if we are married 5 years and we get divorced.... Im out 60k with nothing to show for it. Other than a legal battle for 1/2 the equity in that time frame. One major detail I left out is that I devote 20-30 hours a week to her part time business and recieve no compensation amongst several other contributions to her business. I've never asked and it has never been offered any kind of compensation. I chalk it up to "its all for the greater good of us" and living costs in general, shame on me maybe..... I can fill in additional details as responses come in but am looking for some feedback.... good... bad.... etc. Thank you!


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

You're financially preparing for your divorce before it even happens? Not a good sign.

You're married, combine your finances, sell or rent one house, and live in the other one. You aren't boyfriend and girlfriend any more. Your wife needs to grow up and stop being so petty, everything belongs to both of you. You're man and wife, keeping everything separate is only driving a wedge between you, and demonstrating that neither of you are fully committed to this marriage.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If your are married for 5 years, in most states, you will have the right to 50% of the equity accrued on her house in those 5 years. So if you did not make any payments towards her place you would be getting 50% of the equity (over the 5 years) for nothing.

Since you already owned your own home and you are generating sole income from sole property and that income covers the cost maintaining that property.. she has no rigths to your property at all.

She has a valid point.

Now on the topic of you helping her in her business. You may or may not have some right to the business just as she might have some rights to your business.

See a lawyer and work this out in a way that the two of you agree, or divorce. This should have all been dealt with and a prenup drawn up if needed before you married.

.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Do either of you have children? What was discussed prior to marriage re: financial set up?

My situation has some similarities and what you are experiencing now is why my POV has always been that people with reasonable assets MUST sort this out prior to become defacto or married. I would suggest talking this out immediately and then getting what we call in Aussie a Binding Financial Agreement.

OK our situation in brief: I own my home and car outright, the only debt I have is minimal investment property debt that I hold with my ex husband.
I have a low weekly income bc I have chosen to work part time as I enjoy it and also earn money from investing.
My Partner has a very high income and his own investment property. He lives in my home but we treat it as a family home. He pays half the costs of living, 90% of our entertainment costs (which are quite high) and all of our minor travel. We each pay the costs for our own kids, education, clothes etc. We have 5 teenagers between us who at various times are with us or their other parent.

Both on the same page that anything we owned previously is in our own names and for our own children to inherit. 

Even if I had a mortgage on my home I would not expect him to contribute as it will always remain my asset.

This is all very cut and dry, no emotion involved but also means we are not building a financial future together. So we have plans to start investing in property together which will be in both names, we then have a plan for how to distribute that property to each other and our respective children when we die. 

We do not argue about any of this as it was all worked out very early on. I am staunch on family inheritance and providing as much as I can for my kids and future grand kids. 

So from that POV I don't see it as fair that you should pay part of her mortgage unless she is willing to put the property in both names.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think people should always plan for a marriage to last, and that if you are ready to marry someone, you are ready to equally share all of life with them. Otherwise why marry?, Just live together.

I think all income gets combined and put into a common account.All bills should be paid out of that account. Some amount is allocated for each of you to use as you wish.

pre-marriage assets that do not require maintenance and are not useful (jewelry, money in banks etc) can be set aside, but otherwise make everything joint property.


----------



## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

It almost falls under the old saying "never mix business with pleasure"....

There can be a graying of lines when looking at marriage (especially the second time around)....one can look at the financial piece as a business transaction and the relationship as an emotional transaction (treating them both differently). However, the gray lines often overlap from the minor decisions on who's paying for groceries, too bigger ones like separate vs joint accounts, or - in blended families- the will and inheritances among offspring. 


If you want the money side to be a business transaction then, IMO, the emotional transaction suffers. 

I'm all for joining finances. I'm in my second marriage (with minor kids of my own and adult stepchildren). I am the main breadwinner compared to my H. We tried, initially, to keep things separate, but it didn't work fit within the context of how we see our marriage. My mind does not see us or our disparate contributions as anything but equal support to the union. 

Even in divorce equitable distribution does not always equal exactly 50:50 split. I believe in giving weight to what is important (the marriage relationship)...money is just a means to add experiences to that relationship.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

So she makes 2 to 3 times what you do and wants you to pay half of all expenses. What is she spending all that income on...


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

Did you guys talk about any of this before you got married?

Its strange to see two people with this many assets and income who don't have an agreement before entering into marriage...especially coming out of previous marriages.



> I have no stake in her property, my name isn't on it and I have no ties at all. So in turn if we are married 5 years and we get divorced.... Im out 60k with nothing to show for it.


This isn't necessarily true since this the marital home. You might want to look up the laws on the state you're in. Possibly its the other way around in that she wouldn't be eligible for a full split on any income property you owed before marriage but you might be eligible for a partial or substantial split of the home you both reside in as spouses.

Regardless, have you both thought about simply getting rid of the previous residences and buying something together that feels like both of yours. I think its always problematic when you move into someone else's previous home....it never really feels like yours as a couple.

Bottom line, you guys need to sit down and really understand each other's financial expectations. Its something you should have done before you got married.


----------



## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

This one is easy. You left a $70k job and replaced with $50-60k job. So you "owe" her or the family household $10-20k. You also owe her $1000/month (estimate) for the house (shared expense, just like cable tv). That is another $12k. So you owe her $22-32k annually. Now, calculate the fair market value of your working 20-30 hours per week for her business without compensation. Then subtract that from what you "owe" her and you will find that you not only do not owe her anything but she actually owes you some. Can she hire someone to work 20-30 hours a week for $22K. Doubt it.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think people should always plan for a marriage to last, and that if you are ready to marry someone, you are ready to equally share all of life with them. Otherwise why marry?, Just live together.
> 
> I think all income gets combined and put into a common account.All bills should be paid out of that account. Some amount is allocated for each of you to use as you wish.
> ...


A question for you RS:

you get divorced, have children and high assets. Second and subsequent marriages have an even higher chance of divorce. Yes you plan on the next marriage being for life but are a realist after going through a divorce and having more years on your side (and less years to accumulate should you go through another divorce).

Would you be OK with risking your financial future and your children's inheritance or would you lessen that risk with a legal agreement?

Marriage post divorce is very different to the first time and it is prudent to separate money from emotion.

Here we have managed to do it successfully as well as working towards a shared financial future. No one carries any risk, not me, him or our children.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Holland said:


> A question for you RS:
> 
> you get divorced, have children and high assets. Second and subsequent marriages have an even higher chance of divorce. Yes you plan on the next marriage being for life but are a realist after going through a divorce and having more years on your side (and less years to accumulate should you go through another divorce).
> 
> ...


That is reasonable for a second time around. Applied here he is already paying what he should plus or minus, no need to pay on the mortgage.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

anonmd said:


> That is reasonable for a second time around. Applied here he is already paying what he should plus or minus, no need to pay on the mortgage.


I agree and in the OPs case don't think he should contribute to the mortgage.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
you have a point when there are long term accumulated assets. OTOH, is marriage really the right answer if you are not comfortable sharing everything? Personally I would find it difficult to be married to someone who I didn't absolutely trust. 

At the moment, the substantial majority of my wife's and my assets are only in her name - due to an inheritance. We kept them that way in case I go into a nursing home before I can kill myself, to protect her. Yes, she could run off and leave me with very little. I just trust her not to do so. 





Holland said:


> A question for you RS:
> 
> you get divorced, have children and high assets. Second and subsequent marriages have an even higher chance of divorce. Yes you plan on the next marriage being for life but are a realist after going through a divorce and having more years on your side (and less years to accumulate should you go through another divorce).
> 
> ...


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> you have a point when there are long term accumulated assets. OTOH, is marriage really the right answer if you are not comfortable sharing everything? Personally I would find it difficult to be married to someone who I didn't absolutely trust.
> 
> At the moment, the substantial majority of my wife's and my assets are only in her name - due to an inheritance. We kept them that way in case I go into a nursing home before I can kill myself, to protect her. Yes, she could run off and leave me with very little. I just trust her not to do so.


OK from my POV the keeping pre marriage assets separate is not to do with trust. No I could not marry someone I don't trust.

It is about protecting myself and my children. It is different in a first marriage with shared children because both parents will hopefully have the kids best interests at heart in the event of a death.

It may be odd to some but my ex and I still own property together and have not changed the titles to Tenants in Common which would be the logical post divorce thing to do. This is because I trust that if I died first any money from the properties would help to fund my kids futures.
Now if he were to remarry and we still held property it would very quickly be changed to Tenants in Common.

I trust my partner implicitly but it sits well with both of us that our assets are separate. It just makes life easier, there is no argument pre or post death and no emotion attached to it.
But like I said earlier there is also something missing which is the feeling of building a financial future together, this we will achieve in a complete 50/50 contribution way and keep it separate from our pre marriage assets.

Life is too short and people work too hard to risk it all later in life. As most divorced people know, there is no guarantee of what the future holds. We once loved and trusted our partners but for whatever reason it went wrong and in divorce there are few people (sadly) that can do it amicably.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Holland said:


> I agree and in the OPs case don't think he should contribute to the mortgage.


Whether or not he contributes to the mortgage of the house she owned before they married, she is paying for the mortgage with marital income.

In some states, he is entitled to 50% of the equity in the house to include any that accrued before the marriage because she has mixed marital income with a sole asset. That converts it to a martial asset.

In other states, he would only be entitled to the equity that accrued from the time of the marriage forward... again because she is using marital income to pay for the house.

So in come states, he could divorce her to and get half the assets of her house. And since he's not using marital assets to pay for his home, he gets to keep his.

She is not in a good position here.


----------



## Bobwire (Jan 27, 2016)

The sad thing is our current arrangement is what was decided on before we got married.... Now she wants to change it. I agree 100% if your married your all in and should be working together as a unit/couple etc. For me this is my second marriage (was married for 7 years and single for 10) and never thought I would ever get married again. She was married for 7 years as well and single for 1.5 years.... My feeling on the semantics of marital assets and if I pay into the mortgage etc... quiet honestly all of it turns into a bargaining chip at the divorce table (let's face it... honestly). Myself, I'm as happy with $50 in the bank as I am with $50,000, money is a necessary evil in life and some are more in love with it than others. Regarding what was said..... finding someone to do the things I do for her business. She tried that this summer, she went through 4 people in 5 weeks and gave up. I kept my mouth shut..... But yet she says "I don't need you and can do it all on my own" In her eyes.... everyone is disposable. (Some of her true colors have come out)
Is it likely that either one of us will sell our homes and consolidate to one.... never going to happen. I have zero reason to do so and no way in hell would she even consider it. (We have had this discussion). On top of everything I have will not fit at her place, hence the reasoning why I made the offer to build all of the infrastructure at my place she would need to conduct her business. Quiet frankly I pitched a plan at her to get her home paid off in 5 years.... she told me I was nuts and didn't know what I was talking about. Anyone here can do the math.... you owe 200k, and given the net income of the part time business times 5 years the house is paid for with a buffer. From my viewpoint once the mortgage is paid life is pretty easy given both persons incomes. I have kept my stance on not paying 1/2 of her mortgage..... the feedback from her has not been good, and she refuses to see things any other way. The sad fact a couple of her family members have said "things are a little different the second time around" and they have also said "you made the decision to keep it". In the end what I do never seems to be enough.... and my business has suffered because of the amount of time I dedicate to her part time business. I'm all in..... but at what point do you stand your ground and say what you are giving is it and that's all your getting and not try and come off as being an *******.


----------



## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Bobwire said:


> The sad thing is our current arrangement is what was decided on before we got married.... Now she wants to change it.
> 
> I agree 100% if your married your all in and should be working together as a unit/couple etc.
> 
> ...


Bob, you may be "all in" but from your own quotes it seems that she definitely is not. These issues are what I'd call "deal-breakers" and should have been fully addressed before you married.

If you cannot come to terms with them (and I don't know that you should), then you need to cut bait and move on with your life. Things will only get worse for you if you don't.

I completely agree that you should be 100% "all in" as you say. We have been married for nearly 10 years (second marriage for both of us), and second marriages are very difficult to blend. It took approximately 5 years before we felt fully blended and totally committed in all things to each other, the kids and our marriage.

In our case, we kept both homes (and still have both). Hers we rent out and live in the one I had. She is a medical professional and I am a self-employed business professional. She worked for a while after we married but we decided it best that she stay home to be with our 5 kids (her 3 and my 2) less than a year after we married.

We don't split anything (and never have). I fully support her 3 children as if they were my own flesh and blood. We pay for all our kids' college tuition (currently 2 of hers and 1 of mine) with none of the mine or yours separation of costs or fees (she did bring liquid assets into the marriage from inheritance). All assets are fully co-mingled and wills are set with each of us inheriting 100% of the others share and all 5 kids receiving equal shares after us.

I've been blessed to earn a 7-figure net income working mainly from home and have never felt a need to count costs. I think it would have destroyed our marriage if done any other way. You have to be "all in" especially in second marriages...or why the hell get married?


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

autopilot said:


> .....................
> 
> In our case, we kept both homes (and still have both). Hers we rent out and live in the one I had. She is a medical professional and I am a self-employed business professional. She worked for a while after we married but we decided it best that she stay home to be with our 5 kids (her 3 and my 2) less than a year after we married.
> 
> ...


This can backfire and happens (one of the posters here is living proof and I know of a few similar cases).
If you die first your wife then gets 100% of the Estate, let's say she remarries (or even if she doesn't) she can change her Will to only include her bio kids. It happens and it is not good, it is very hard to do anything about because as the surviving Spouse they were Willed the full Estate, it becomes theirs to do with as they wish. 

In our case all our respective kids are to inherit their bio parents Estates that were built up before we entered our relationship.
Then when we build a joined Estate this will go 50% to our partner and 50% to be divided up to our bio children. Everyone is covered this way.


----------



## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

That's what trusts are for. We have ours set up with specific amounts to each of our five kids. The house and personal estate go to each of us parents. Life insurance is set to cover any estate issues with the remainder going into trusts with an independent executor from either myself or my wife.

We did it not for protection against each other but as protection for the kids from their greedy other parents (both our exes). A good estate attorney is very inexpensive compared to the issues post-death. It's well worth the cost. I know because we've dealt with it on one of our parents who died basically intestate and left a real mess for us to clean up (still dealing with court issues later this month over some of it).


----------



## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> This can backfire and happens (one of the posters here is living proof and I know of a few similar cases).
> If you die first your wife then gets 100% of the Estate, let's say she remarries (or even if she doesn't) she can change her Will to only include her bio kids. It happens and it is not good, it is very hard to do anything about because as the surviving Spouse they were Willed the full Estate, it becomes theirs to do with as they wish.


But, thanks for bringing that up, because you are exactly right. I was quite vague and unclear in my post. I could spend a really long time talking about the intricacies of estate planning (not because I'm an attorney but because I've taken some good legal counsel).


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

All good AP, your set up makes sense. We also have independent Executors, mine being one of my Brothers who is also my Solicitor.

It might sounds jaded but truly I'm not, just a realist and also looking for the least possible amount of drama for my kids. My family has a very strong history of inheritance and it is very important to me.

Have you considered what will happen should you choose to divest pre death? This is something that I have been blessed with the benefit from my parents and something I will do with my own children. 
We live in Aussie, so far no death or gift taxes so either way divesting or post death willing are tax free. The big problem here is the huge cost of housing, an average house in our city is $700k minimum. I plan on divesting wealth to my kids when they are mid to late 20's but I would not do so for my Step Kids. This is one of the big reasons we chose to not co mingle pre existing assets.

One thing I do not agree with though is the notion that there is no point in getting married if you don't co mingle assets. Mr H and I very much separate money and emotion, we are together for love and a great life, not money.


----------



## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Oh and as for greedy ex's, yes a big consideration. Mr H's ex has serious (medically diagnosed)mental health issues and I do not want her ever being able to have any claim to one cent of my kids money.


----------



## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

Holland said:


> One thing I do not agree with though is the notion that there is no point in getting married if you don't co mingle assets. Mr H and I very much separate money and emotion, we are together for love and a great life, not money.


I don't think that my point was well written. That's not really what I meant. It just sounds like Bob is much more into his marriage than his wife. I mean, really, some of the things that she said per his words just sound so cold and heartless. You can definitely live quite happily keeping separate estates. But, you cannot live happily when one wants to live "all in" as he said and the other at the complete opposite extreme.

She sounds like she is controlling and has a foot halfway out the door unless he does exactly as she says. He's doing his darn best to try to make things work and she is unwielding to compromise and sounds very selfish. My point about that is that why get married if you don't intend to work together as a couple cohesively and lovingly.

I just know from our personalities, that my wife and I work very well keeping all of our assets together. She doesn't even ask me about investments. When we have our quarterly advisory meeting she just tells our advisor that whatever I say is alright with her. But, I definitely keep her in the loop on all our financial affairs just because I think that she needs to know.

Sorry to "threadjack" Bob. Hope things go alright for you.


----------

