# Did you blame yourself for missng red flags and have you forgiven yourself yet?



## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

How did you go about forgiving yourself for missing all the red red flags? 

In my head I know that you are supposed to be able to trust your spouse, which is what I did, so I want to stop blaming myself - but its hard.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You were deceived. You trusted the person you were most supposed to trust on this earth and they lied to you. It's not your fault you missed the red flags - it's theirs.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

No I don't blame myself for missing red flags. It just shows me how naive I was and how much I trusted him. He had my absolute 100% trust. I can't even imagine what thats like anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I went through this once before, in a prior nmarriage about 20 years earlier,. At that time, it went on for a long, long time before I figured it out.
This most recent time, I trusted my gut, got a PI on the case and confronted fairly quickly.
I think it is just a matter of unfamiliarity with the clues, combined with trust, with a bit of denial that keeps us from figuring it out sooner. Nothing to be ashamed of, IMO. We are nice, trusting etc. That is good.
But, now, I can never go back to being that way. Isort of mourn this, as I was much nicer and less cynical. But, I am grounded in reality , now. Makes it much easier to spot these types. But, the pool of available, nice partners is much smaller.
I would say that 75% of the women I have dated since divorce have been involved in infidelity at some point in their pasts, either as cheaters or OW to married guys. IOnce I find out, I am out of there. No need to take chances, even if some people can change.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I agree Arnoold...that u never go back to the way you were
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

My first had an affair. I'd like to say I trusted her completely and she took advantage but the truth is, I just wasn't paying attention and I took an awful lot for granted. She never would have believed she could pull it off if I had been as attentive as I should have been. Doesn't excuse her actions but it also doesn't excuse mine.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Infidelity is something that nobody suspects is going to happen to them, so the so called 'red flags' that we talk about here are simply not recognized as existing. It's only after it happens that we become sensitize to those red flags existence and what they could possibly mean.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Sad thing is you should not have to look for red flags. Love and trust are blind.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> My first had an affair. I'd like to say I trusted her completely and she took advantage but the truth is, I just wasn't paying attention and I took an awful lot for granted. She never would have believed she could pull it off if I had been as attentive as I should have been. Doesn't excuse her actions but it also doesn't excuse mine.


I would not take responsibility, as one should be able to trust his spouse. It's a no win. If you trust, some cheat. If you stay vigilant, you are jealous and controlloing etc, and you cannot just relax. Too tiring for me. Iwould rather stick to honest relationships, like with hookers.


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## Bartimaus (Oct 15, 2011)

joe kidd said:


> Sad thing is you should not have to look for red flags. Love and trust are blind.


And thus my user name!
OP I may never forgive myself. Because now that everything is out in the open and I have finally realised that I spent over 38 years of my life refusing to see reality. I now understand the things that seemed like little insignificant red flags that I just paid no attention to because she always attacked me for my concern about them and convinced me that I was wrong and mean for being jealous. I honestly believe that my wife has a cheaters heart and if the genders were revesed,her the male and me the female,that I would have been physically abused and beat and treated like a dog. I will never forgive myself because I have allowed 38 years of rug sweeping and it has made her a monster.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

In my case, I will never beat my self up for the things my WW did. Sure there were red flags, but how am I supossed to go through life looking for red flags?

Hell no! What she did was on her....not me!

What we did was the right thing to do ( trust )

What they did was wrong ( betray us )

Again... no way in hell I'm going to take what WW did and put it back on me.

Why should we? what did we do that was wrong? And I'm talking about our spouse infidelity. We as LS can take responseablity for a problematic marriage, but to kick our selfs for not seeing the red flags ....sooner...or what ever... is b~llsh~t... its all them for cheating. 

Stop beating your self up about the red flags. Show the confidence in that our waywards even had them in the 1st place is messed up all in its self!!!!!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Arnold said:


> I went through this once before, in a prior nmarriage about 20 years earlier,. At that time, it went on for a long, long time before I figured it out.
> This most recent time, I trusted my gut, got a PI on the case and confronted fairly quickly.


You reacted better than I did. My first wife cheated on me over 20 years ago so one would think I would recognize the red flags this time around in this marriage. I was a little young, so I may have repressed the memory because I didn't recognize the red flags for what they were. So I ended up in denial and blindsided.

What my experience did help with was getting to the anger stage MUCH quicker this time around, helping me set boundaries and conditions.


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## Onedery (Sep 22, 2011)

I always prided myself on recognizing when I didn't know the answer to something that was asked of me. People who don't recognize their short comings can cause themselves and others a lot of grief by answering what they"think".
Anybody can make a mistake and this was my biggest. She put me wise after twenty years and two months.
I no longer take ANYBODY for granted and figure if it can happen, it probably will. Everybody is just trying to get all they can out of life, and now that is all I'm trying to do.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Onedery said:


> I always prided myself on recognizing when I didn't know the answer to something that was asked of me. People who don't recognize their short comings can cause themselves and others a lot of grief by answering what they"think".


:iagree:

Factoids and assumptions are one of mankinds worst traits.
Unfortunately it usually takes a significant personal tragedy in judgement before one becomes aware of this.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There is healthy vigilance and there is paranoia. We protect what we value. If we have developed a very deep, intimate relationship with our spouse, how could they have a long term affair undetected? I know when my coworkers are happy, sad, well rested, troubled, sick, ...and in love. How could our spouse conceal a long term relationship? Maybe the victim spouse wouldn't have exact proof, but if they are paying attention, they'd just have to know something was up.


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## marksaysay (Oct 15, 2010)

The only thing I blame myself for was moving out after the "ILYNILWY" and "I just need some space" speech. It was the worst thing I could've done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Bartimaus said:


> And thus my user name!
> OP I may never forgive myself. Because now that everything is out in the open and I have finally realised that I spent over 38 years of my life refusing to see reality. I now understand the things that seemed like little insignificant red flags that I just paid no attention to because she always attacked me for my concern about them and convinced me that I was wrong and mean for being jealous. I honestly believe that my wife has a cheaters heart and if the genders were revesed,her the male and me the female,that I would have been physically abused and beat and treated like a dog. I will never forgive myself because I have allowed 38 years of rug sweeping and it has made her a monster.


She was always a monster( at least since early childhood). She is a bully and a disordered personality. These folks are relentless, as you describe, and they cow folks nto submission by wearing them down.
But, you are right. You tolerated this due to your own issues. Fortunately, unlike perosnality disorders, the issues that make one a willing victim are amenable to treatment and can be resolved. Personality disorders cannot.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

the guy said:


> In my case, I will never beat my self up for the things my WW did. Sure there were red flags, but how am I supossed to go through life looking for red flags?
> 
> Hell no! What she did was on her....not me!
> 
> ...


Excellent. Completely agree.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> There is healthy vigilance and there is paranoia. We protect what we value. If we have developed a very deep, intimate relationship with our spouse, how could they have a long term affair undetected? I know when my coworkers are happy, sad, well rested, troubled, sick, ...and in love. How could our spouse conceal a long term relationship? Maybe the victim spouse wouldn't have exact proof, but if they are paying attention, they'd just have to know something was up.


Well, the majority of us did figure it out at some point. Expecting instant omniscience is unrealistic. And, depending on the sophistication of the subterfuge and the cheater's skill and comfort level with prevarication, the length of time until detection is, obviously , going to vary.
See it's not just the betrayed's level of awareness that factors in. The skill of the cheater plays a role, as well.


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## Hopeeternal (Oct 28, 2011)

I guess I should have known. Maybe like Unbelievable I just was not attentive enough...I know my wife accuses me of that. Fact is she had PAs with her first husband and left him while her kids were still young. I met her when the kids were 6/7 and she was still "separated" from him (his fault, not hers). Her first A while married to me happened electronically with some dude in her college class. I found out, it ended. I am such a fool and trust so easily that I really believed her when she said it would never happen again. Things went OK until recently (as I have posted across these threads). The A has been going since JUNE. It is now October...why did I not figure this out sooner? I ONLY caught this just before it became PA. Because I TRUSTED her to do the right thing after the first A. I am an idiot. Plain and simple. But no more. I will not do this again with her (should we reconcile) or anyone who follows her, assuming that there will be. Trust is a terrible thing. Noble and sweet, but black and cold when it fails.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

I was an idiot,as well, So what? I like mysef. I am a helluva nice guy.
But, I now realize that I come first. No more of the nice guy deal in romantic relationships. I will not be a jerk but it is very freeing knowing that I can get by just fine without some demanding drama queen acting like a jerk.First sign of that crap from anyone in a relationship and I am gone.


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## Hopeeternal (Oct 28, 2011)

You know, I am with you there Arnold =)


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Thanks for all the replies - it's iteresting to note how it impacts on relationships going forward, both when its the same relationship with the Disloyal Spouse or with future partners if you don't reconcile.



Re below - This is how I WANT to feel, and I do believe I'll get there at some point, hopefully sooner rather than later. 



the guy said:


> In my case, I will never beat my self up for the things my WW did. Sure there were red flags, but how am I supossed to go through life looking for red flags?
> 
> Hell no! What she did was on her....not me!
> 
> ...


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## wiser11 (Jul 9, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Well, the majority of us did figure it out at some point. Expecting instant omniscience is unrealistic. And, depending on the sophistication of the subterfuge and the cheater's skill and comfort level with prevarication, the length of time until detection is, obviously , going to vary.
> See it's not just the betrayed's level of awareness that factors in. The skill of the cheater plays a role, as well.


:iagree:


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

Arnold said:


> I would not take responsibility, as one should be able to trust his spouse. It's a no win. If you trust, some cheat. If you stay vigilant, you are jealous and controlloing etc, and you cannot just relax. Too tiring for me. Iwould rather stick to honest relationships, like with hookers.


Ugh...guys have it so easy! lol

Our exes sound much alike. My husband is a diagnosed narcissist with dissociative tendencies, but after several revelations since our split (use of aliases, history of criminality, double life, zero boundaries or morals and the like), I suspect that he is more of a sociopath than anything. 

So how is it, exactly, that we go about treating our own issues? It's myself and my own judgement that I can't trust now more than anything. I've been in therapy for seven months and am doing great, but how will I ever know if and when I am...normal?


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Here is how I deal with this exact issue, anonymous f:
First , have some arbitrary, unwavering criteria that you use in assessing folks. Like any incidence of infidelity, bad credit, poor job history, criminal record, poor academic record. I know, there are good folks who , through no fault of their own , find themselves with some of these problems(other than the infidelity), So, perhaps be willing to , maybe cut some slack on the others , if the excuses can be verified.
Second, (and this one is big, IMO), always expose the new person to your family and group of acquaintencesAND LISTEN to their feedback.They are not blinded by attraction.
ANd, really go slow with the physical aspects of a relationship. Once sex comes into play,the chemicals released cloud judgement.


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Here is how I deal with this exact issue, anonymous f:
> First , have some arbitrary, unwavering criteria that you use in assessing folks. Like any incidence of infidelity, bad credit, poor job history, criminal record, poor academic record. I know, there are good folks who , through no fault of their own , find themselves with some of these problems(other than the infidelity), So, perhaps be willing to , maybe cut some slack on the others , if the excuses can be verified.
> Second, (and this one is big, IMO), always expose the new person to your family and group of acquaintencesAND LISTEN to their feedback.They are not blinded by attraction.
> ANd, really go slow with the physical aspects of a relationship. Once sex comes into play,the chemicals released cloud judgement.



All great advice. I tend to be the kind of person to let _too _much go and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, deserved or not, so maybe I will have to limit it to one out of the list, lol. 

And you're right on with the family and friend thing--would have saved me from this whole mess had I had some sense years ago. But live and learn; certainly not a lesson I will ever forget.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Me, too.My family was aghast, but all I saw was the physical beauty(for God's sakes, she was almost as good looking as me)


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## Anonymous_Female (Apr 16, 2011)

Arnold said:


> Me, too.My family was aghast, but all I saw was the physical beauty(for God's sakes, she was almost as good looking as me)


:lol::smthumbup:


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I can honestly say I have never been surprised. I have frequently been stupid. The one who cheated had a history of similar behavior before I met her and I knew her history before I married her. My bad. Had a relationship with a controlling, self-centered, lying spendthrift. I always knew she was controlling and materialistic. I went ahead and got into the relationship anyway. My bad again. My present wife has some issues but her basic character is the same one I married. It is tempting to blame our partners but we had to agree to be a party to a relationship with them. It doesn't help me to diagnose a partner's problems. It might be helpful for me to figure out why I don't heed the warning signs.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I do believe many of us married our spouses without fully knowing how seemingly minor personality flaws and/or childhood issues could someday manifest into a spouse who's capable of infidelity. As the saying goes, hindsight is easier than foresight.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

Hindsight is 20/20. Don't beat yourself up but DO learn from your experience. Another word for that is "Wisdom". Of course we all see red flags all over the place with the proper perspective -- they were always there we just were blind to them at the time. In my case, I had many problems in my relationship including a failure with intimate communication which led to an on-going EA/PA affair with my STBXW. I was tempted by my own affair and resisted it because in a moment of clarity I saw the reality of it and where it goes which is nowhere (not to mention the collateral damage to unwilling participants!) But once one (or both) of you cross that line reconciliation is extremely difficult. In my case, I had a hard time reconciling how I could be tempted and resist yet my partner failed the same test. Twice. Respect/trust is sooo hard to regain once it's lost...What's even worse is in addition to you losing respect for the wayward spouse they also lose respect for themselves. Bad, bad, bad...

For the next time around:

1) Don't settle! Wait for what really works for you in a relationship (personality, interests, aspirations, character, etc.) I'll repeat it again "don't settle!"
2) Communication is key. About everything including, and critically importantly, sex (major FAIL in my case). Make sure you both know what buttons need to get pushed and push them often! 
3) Fully internalize the cost of what it really means to enter into marriage with someone and never assume you can change them. If you feel you NEED to change someone then they aren't the one (see #1).
4) Strongly consider a prenup if you're crazy enough to get on the marriage train again. If your religious/moral views allow it, opt for a registered domestic partnership instead (especially if you're not going to have kids...)


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

Arnold said:


> I was an idiot,as well, So what? I like mysef. I am a helluva nice guy.
> But, I now realize that I come first. No more of the nice guy deal in romantic relationships. I will not be a jerk but it is very freeing knowing that I can get by just fine without some demanding drama queen acting like a jerk.First sign of that crap from anyone in a relationship and I am gone.


BOOM!!. Bullseye. Nailed it!


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## Dazed&confused85 (Nov 15, 2011)

I blame myself. All. The. Time.

It's been almost 7 years since my first suspicions came up (and then I quickly dismissed them within a day or two until about 11 months later), and yet I still don't have proof.

I did the dumb thing of voicing my suspicions with him before getting solid proof, so I tipped him off and lost my opportunity to get solid proof. Wish I hadn't been so dumb back then.

Now I feel like I'll never know unless he confesses. 

It haunts me every day, not having proof and feeling alone in my suspicions. Nowadays I would welcome proof because I've grown to really dislike him for his anger and moodiness, like I need a bonafide out.

Ugh, I hate this being in the dark.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Wisdom and education my friends. Most of us are clueless as to what is/was going on. Then the WS screws up and we have the evidence or confession. Then wounded and hurting we come to websites like this one and get educated and learn from the wise guys.

I would not beat yourself up. Last year I was blindsided and had I known the signs I would have nailed it on day one or two, instead of month two.

This year I knew she was going to cheat before she even planned to cheat. The signs were already starting. I even knew who the guy was going to be as she kept looking at his profile page on FB.


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## Unsure in Seattle (Sep 6, 2011)

Hmmm...

Yes, I did blame myself on the "I don't want to be controlling, so I don't want to say anything" front, but when things were building to a head, I think I acted on the information and signals I had about as well as I could have. 

I do regret not nipping things in the bud sooner. But I did learn to trust myself; I'm fairly observant and sensitive enough to notice certain things being wrong... 


I can tell anyone this much; if your spouse is entering a relationship or spending too much time in a relationship in such a way that makes you uneasy, don't be afraid to speak up about it. It's not being controlling (or jealous or whatever); it's being vigilant.

I'll never forget... she and the OM were chatting away at her desk one afternoon. "Innocently," of course (nothing truly ever happened between them, but they were both clearly getting off on the attention that they were giving each other). I came up, as it was time to go home and was very stilted and rude to the guy when he invited me to join the conversation (I knew something was up... but not the true extent of the problem... so I was a little abrupt with the guy), which is atypical for me as I'm fairly practiced at being polite and engaging to pretty much everybody, particularly in the work environment. She was surprised, but gossiped to her (toxic and enabling) best friend that she was "thrilled" about how rude I was, because it would give her an excuse to tell him how "mean and jealous" I was.

I guess I've forgiven, but I'll never, ever forget that.


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