# Have a great friend but not a lover



## Ultrafrustrated (Apr 30, 2017)

I have been married for over 28 years. My wife is a great friend and I love doing things with her. We get along well. I don't want to ever lose her but I'm soooo sexually frustrated because she has no desire to make love! It's been a year since we've been intimate and before that we would have sex maybe 3-4 times a year. So I turned to pornography because I didn't want to have an affair. I always made it the priority to make sure she reached orgasm but when it came to my needs to spice things up like different positions to have sex or oral sex, She didn't like it. She complained too much and I tired of the selfishness on her part about pleasure being all about her. I told her that I'm tired of always having to pursue after her to make love because she hardly has ever pursued after me. I feel unloved. I am really wanting to have an affair because I need to know that I'm wanted by someone. I am tired of pornography, I just want to be loved.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Fair enough....you have laid out your case to us. Good job.
You said she is a great friend.
Basically, a roommate.

Tell her what you told us. 
I know, you have told her of your frustration. She dismissed it. 

Tell this:
You are tired of no intimacy from her.
You are tired of pulling your pud.

You are to the point now, of thinking of finding another women to satisfy your sexual urges.
...........................................................................................................................................
This WILL get her attention. Say it....do not do it. The cheating.

She dismissed your concerns. She will not miss your diss, when you threaten to do the Miss.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Just wondering here why your wife is not interested in sex with you. No doubt her drive might be lower but I have a feeling she still has desires, she is human. When a woman loses desire to have sex with her husband many times there is something else going on that creates the loss of interest. Do you spend enough quality time together or do you retreat to your interests often? Are you able to have intimacy without sex so she understands that those times of holding hands are important to you and you care about her needs beyond the bedroom? You said you resorted to porn.....so porn is new to you, or has that been a constant in the marriage? Women will turn away from their husbands if they do not feel loved, wanted, loved, protected and supported.

I was with my ex for 27 years. I left for the very reasons above. Perhaps your situations id different.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I told my wife a long time ago that if she no longer wanted to have sex, I assume that it means that I can find it elsewhere because if she loved me, she would not expect me to do without a man's basic need. That did the trick for us and after that my wife did anything I suggested and even got into group sex and threesomes with her friends and me. What she did about our differing libidos was to set me up with her best friend. Yes I know it sounds like a fantasy but she did exactly that. Keep in mind that we had threesomes a few times already so she was not going from zero to hundred miles an hour in a flash. I did have sex with her girlfriend and then got my wife to join us. Long story short, my wife discovered she is bi as is her best friend. Her girlfriend moved in with us and was in our life for 30 of our 44 years of marriage. My wife was glad to have another women to handle my high libido and fetishes. She never got jealous. She said that she knew that I would never leave her for our girlfriend. She was right because our girlfriend was a great girlfriend but would not make the kind of wife I would like.

Read this:Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

Ultrafrustrated said:


> I have been married for over 28 years. My wife is a great friend and I love doing things with her. We get along well. I don't want to ever lose her but I'm soooo sexually frustrated because she has no desire to make love! It's been a year since we've been intimate and before that we would have sex maybe 3-4 times a year. So I turned to pornography because I didn't want to have an affair. I always made it the priority to make sure she reached orgasm but when it came to my needs to spice things up like different positions to have sex or oral sex, She didn't like it. She complained too much and I tired of the selfishness on her part about pleasure being all about her. I told her that I'm tired of always having to pursue after her to make love because she hardly has ever pursued after me. I feel unloved. I am really wanting to have an affair because I need to know that I'm wanted by someone. I am tired of pornography, I just want to be loved.


Hey @Ultrafrustrated

I totally feel your frustration and pain here. I had many moments with an ex where I felt exactly the same way and it sucks. 

I do agree with @AVR1962. I am almost certain that there is something going on here that is causing her to feel a low level of sexual desire. 

When you mentioned to her that you are sick of having to pursue her, what did she say? How did she react? I'm wondering whether you received any clues around what it is that she is needing from you? What are her emotional needs and how are you meeting them? 

Whilst your needs are not being met, I'm certain that she will probably be feeling the same on some level so if you can get clearer on what those are, then you can use some of that insight to be able to possibly shift things.

Thanks


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Ultrafrustrated said:


> I have been married for over 28 years. My wife is a great friend and I love doing things with her. We get along well. I don't want to ever lose her but I'm soooo sexually frustrated because she has no desire to make love! It's been a year since we've been intimate and before that we would have sex maybe 3-4 times a year. So I turned to pornography because I didn't want to have an affair. I always made it the priority to make sure she reached orgasm but when it came to my needs to spice things up like different positions to have sex or oral sex, She didn't like it. She complained too much and I tired of the selfishness on her part about pleasure being all about her. I told her that I'm tired of always having to pursue after her to make love because she hardly has ever pursued after me. I feel unloved. I am really wanting to have an affair because I need to know that I'm wanted by someone. I am tired of pornography, I just want to be loved.


When you say "intimate" is this merely an aphorism for sex? Or do you actually mean "intimacy"? And do you know of the four forms of intimacy?

Usually, a woman not offering sex, is doing so because husband has failed at the other three forms, which must occur first.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Ultrafrustrated said:


> I have been married for over 28 years. My wife is a great friend and I love doing things with her. We get along well. I don't want to ever lose her but I'm soooo sexually frustrated because she has no desire to make love! It's been a year since we've been intimate and before that we would have sex maybe 3-4 times a year. So I turned to pornography because I didn't want to have an affair. I always made it the priority to make sure she reached orgasm but when it came to my needs to spice things up like different positions to have sex or oral sex, She didn't like it. She complained too much and I tired of the selfishness on her part about pleasure being all about her. I told her that I'm tired of always having to pursue after her to make love because she hardly has ever pursued after me. I feel unloved. I am really wanting to have an affair because I need to know that I'm wanted by someone. I am tired of pornography, I just want to be loved.


I was in a sex starved marriage and nearly divorced my wife. I was married between 30 to 40 years at the time, so I feel your pain.

Three books really helped me turn my situation around. The first two where MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage and Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. Both taught me to Get a Life, that is to break the cycle of co-dependence with my wife and take responsibility for my own happiness in life. They used different words but basically taught similar things. I also learned not to constantly seek validation from my wife and not be clingy and emotionally smothering.

The next book that really helped me, but took a while to understand was Chapman's 5 languages of love. My wife loved me and told me she loved me, but in her love languages and not mine. That made me feel unloved. I had to learn how to accept and understand how much she loved me, but in her love languages and not mine. 

Then I had to learn how to make her feel loved and cherished in her love languages. It was very hard figuring out what made her feel loved and cherished even once I learned her primary and secondary love languages. Her primary love language was acts of service. I did laundry, dishes, cleaning, vacuuming and a host of other things, but she viewed them all as "my fair share of the household choirs." Ultimately, I figured out that bringing her coffee in bed to wake up with was something she viewed as an act of service, as was pouring her a glass of wine when she got home from work. 

After I started to make her feel loved in her love languages, I figured out how I had emotionally hurt her. It was due to my not understanding her love languages. I apologized to her for hurting her and explained how I had hurt her and how I was going to make sure she felt loved and cherished.

That is when my wife started to have feeling for me again, but it took a lot of work on both our parts to implement self-change and the help and guidance of a great sex therapist (marriage counselor with extra training in sexual problems) before we started having sex again.

My wife is LD and I am HD (high sexual desire) and we will always struggle with the frequency of sex. But I now understand that is just how it is and we need to reach a compromise that we can both live with.

You need to understand that you can't change your wife, only she can change herself. You can change yourself, you can change how you will react to her, you can change what kind of behavior you will accept, and you can support your wife and positively reinforce any changes in her behavior that you like. That is why having a 3rd person a sex therapist who can provide the two of you with insights and suggest new things is so valuable.

Good luck. I have been married 46 years and now again have the wife, friend, partner and lover of my youth. It is still not perfect, but I am happy.


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## Ultrafrustrated (Apr 30, 2017)

We spend quality time together, hold hands when walking together. We do most things together. I love being with her. My wife told me that she doesn't have a sexual drive. I tired of not being wanted physically. She was raped 2 times in her life. Sex was good the first 5 years. She was willing to do oral. Now she finds it disgusting even tho I gave her oral sex. When we had sex, it was all about her orgasms--it wasn't mutual pleasure. I've talked to her about her not pursuing after me and she told me that she doesn't desire it. That left me cold.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Are you meeting her needs? Really? Do you even know what her needs are?

1 - Ask her what her needs are so you fully understand them.

2 - Meet those needs on a consistent basis.

3 - As you meet them, confirm with her that you are meeting them. For example if she needs non-sexual intimacy, then cuddle on a couch watching a movie, then the next day say "was that cuddling last night the kind of non-sexual intimacy you need?"

4 - Once you have been doing this, sexual intimacy may follow on its own.

5 - If it doesn't, then sit down and explain to her that you have met her needs, she has confirmed you met them, but she is not meeting yours and by not doing so it will be difficult for you to continue meeting them.

Other points... if it's psychological (due to the rapes), have her get counseling. That is on her to try to straighten out.

You can also explain that you promised monogamy, but not celibacy and if she can't meet your needs, ask her to open the marriage. If she doesn't want to do that, ask her how long she expects you to be her roommate before the "marriage" disintegrates.


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

I have a similar problem with my wife as well. She always expects me to be the pursuer, she always makes it all about her, never wants to experiment and most times just lays there and doesn’t seem into it. She almost always has an orgasm and when it’s over, she’s done, never a possibly of another round.

Years ago she complained that I didn’t show her enough affection, cuddling, holding hands, things like that, so I started to show her more. Then oddly she never wanted to cuddle anymore. If I held her hand I rarely if ever felt her holding mine back. Most times when I kiss her, her lips feel lip like she’s not returning the kiss. Even a hug is barely returned from her. It’s one of the things that led to the problems we’re having now.

I too just don’t understand it. She tells me she wants more affection, then I show her more affection and it seems she either ignores or dismisses it.


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## TheRealMcCoy (Apr 13, 2017)

AtMyEnd said:


> I have a similar problem with my wife as well.


You do indeed.




AtMyEnd said:


> She always expects me to be the pursuer, she always makes it all about her, never wants to experiment and most times just lays there and doesn’t seem into it. She almost always has an orgasm and when it’s over, she’s done, never a possibly of another round.
> 
> Years ago she complained that I didn’t show her enough affection, cuddling, holding hands, things like that, so I started to show her more. Then oddly she never wanted to cuddle anymore. If I held her hand I rarely if ever felt her holding mine back. Most times when I kiss her, her lips feel lip like she’s not returning the kiss. Even a hug is barely returned from her. It’s one of the things that led to the problems we’re having now.
> 
> I too just don’t understand it. She tells me she wants more affection, then I show her more affection and it seems she either ignores or dismisses it.



The only thing worse than getting the ILYBINILWY speech? NOT getting it when you need it. 

Good luck to both of you. You are in for a ride. I speculated that's the OP's problem. I can GUARANTEE it's AME's problem.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

I second The 5 Love Languages book. I found out a couple months ago my hub was having "interactive porn" affairs and a ONS in real life. We've been married 26 years and our sex life sounds like yours. (You & I should have an affair - we're perfect ;-)) My primary language is Physical Touch and his Acts of Service, so I've been sex starved while he works down a To Do list. idk how this is going to turn out, but we've had a lot more sex in this crisis, which is ironic considering he shattered my trust. But he realized my need (so that's why you're always hanging all over me...) and has tried to meet it.

We're also best friends, which I always thought was the secret to our original marital success, but I started to question having that friendship base... Who knows what sex is "supposed" to look like this far in? He's often seemed inhibited, so I'm having a hard time reconciling him being on FetLife, interacting with multiple women and talking about such vile acts that he clearly never wanted me to see the conversations (and I haven't seen much - just bits that make me say, hmm...) It's like he's a BSDM sexual super hero in his online personna vs his real life missionary position and no laughing (maybe not that bad but close).

I feel for ya. You know how they always say that people have affairs, but it's not about the sex? I always thought -- no, it'd be about the sex! I mean, c'mon!


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Welcome to the club. Sorry this club does not offer any benefits


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Thound said:


> Welcome to the club. Sorry this club does not offer any benefits


Still have to pay the dues though.


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## Ultrafrustrated (Apr 30, 2017)

If only you lived in Vegas....


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

You know what you need to do. You've been through it all with her. There is no magic bullet. She has sexually checked out and you either have to live with it or leave it.


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## HD48 (Jan 14, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> I told my wife a long time ago that if she no longer wanted to have sex, I assume that it means that I can find it elsewhere because if she loved me, she would not expect me to do without a man's basic need. That did the trick for us and after that my wife did anything I suggested and even got into group sex and threesomes with her friends and me. What she did about our differing libidos was to set me up with her best friend. Yes I know it sounds like a fantasy but she did exactly that. Keep in mind that we had threesomes a few times already so she was not going from zero to hundred miles an hour in a flash. I did have sex with her girlfriend and then got my wife to join us. Long story short, my wife discovered she is bi as is her best friend. Her girlfriend moved in with us and was in our life for 30 of our 44 years of marriage. My wife was glad to have another women to handle my high libido and fetishes. She never got jealous. She said that she knew that I would never leave her for our girlfriend. She was right because our girlfriend was a great girlfriend but would not make the kind of wife I would like.
> 
> Read this:Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com


Wow, Vinnydee...that is some seriously effed-up sh*% right there..don't you see how ridiculously abnormal that is, and you're trying to state it like it's "normal". And then you have the audacity to comment on my post that I posted yesterday. I'm literally blown away.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

AtMyEnd said:


> I have a similar problem with my wife as well. She always expects me to be the pursuer, she always makes it all about her, never wants to experiment and most times just lays there and doesn’t seem into it. She almost always has an orgasm and when it’s over, she’s done, never a possibly of another round.
> 
> Years ago she complained that I didn’t show her enough affection, cuddling, holding hands, things like that, so I started to show her more. Then oddly she never wanted to cuddle anymore. If I held her hand I rarely if ever felt her holding mine back. Most times when I kiss her, her lips feel lip like she’s not returning the kiss. Even a hug is barely returned from her. It’s one of the things that led to the problems we’re having now.
> 
> I too just don’t understand it. She tells me she wants more affection, then I show her more affection and it seems she either ignores or dismisses it.


It was the years before you decided to do something different that created her reaction. If she felt all she was to you was a sperm receptacle, for lack of better terms, she will be turmed off at your attempts. She needed to know that she was loved and appreciated for who she was, the person she is, without the association of sex.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> It was the years before you decided to do something different that created her reaction. If she felt all she was to you was a sperm receptacle, for lack of better terms, she will be turmed off at your attempts. She needed to know that she was loved and appreciated for who she was, the person she is, without the association of sex.


So he can't win either way


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You have few options, none of them good. First of all, discuss this with her, and realize that nothing will change on her side. You can negotiate an open marriage rather than cheat, but it will be difficult to find women who will go along with this (sadly, it's much easier to find one who will cheat on their spouse with you). Your best bet for an open marriage is to pay for escorts. Your next best option is divorce, but stay friends, and have the freedom to date and find a sexual relationship as a single man.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

She's not attracted to you. To cut short the analysis of nearly all LD/HD issues where only the HD partner is available for discussion, you only unfortunately have the standard options: 
-Leave.
-Stay and be unhappy.
-Stay and be unhappy and cheat on her to get your sexual needs met outside the marriage.
-Ask her to open the relationship so you can get your sexual needs met elsewhere with her permission.
-Or, run a self-improvement plan to make yourself a more attractive man ("run the MAP") and see if you can increase her attraction to you and see if that improves things. This may or may not work.

There's lots of advice on TAM and elsewhere on how to do this and what this entails. It's on fundamentally about being an interesting attractive confident person. It's not about being her doormat or butler and making her life easier. 

Fundamentally you can only change yourself and your interactions with her, you can't force her to change. 

I highly encourage you to run a self-improvement plan and be the most attractive person you can be, to see if she responds before taking steps towards leaving her. Don't stay and continue to be unhappy and be in a relationship with a woman who is not interested in you. Be aware though that fundamentally you can only change yourself and change your interactions with her, you can't change her.


Read Athol Kay. If you've gotten lazy and overweight and complacent then focus on getting in shape, dressing better, and being more confident and assertive dealing with her outside the bedroom. 

Start with taking leadership on meals and activities. Tell her on Thursday that you've made diner reservations for Friday at that new restaurant you heard about. When she pushes back and on Friday starts complaining that her stomach isn't right, etc, and pushing back and saying she doesn't feel like going out, go without her (you don't have to go out to nice place by yourself, maybe just go see a movie by yourself or whatever) and leave her at home. 

Start back up doing the the martial art classes or the bike rides or whatever activities you used to do before you met her and early on when you were dating that you stopped doing over the course of the marriage. Invite her to join you and go without her when she says no. 

Be a leader and be confident. Do interesting things and go to interesting places and Insist that you are going to have a fun and interesting life and she's welcome to join you if she wants. 

Lift weights, cut way way down on the booze, eat healthy, and lift more weights. Get in really good shape with a focus on loosing your gut and building up muscle mass.

Remember the bedroom comes last.

*Only* after a few months of your self-improvement program, then start focusing on sex. Start by flirting with her when you both know know timing isn't going to let it get anywhere so she is less threatened that it will lead to sexual activity. Send flirty texts. Responsive desire women need some time to warm up, so don't initiate sex when she's not expecting it - send a text in the afternoon that you're thinking of how she looked in the shower that morning , etc, to give her a heads up that it's sexy time later that day. 


After a few months of you working extremely hard to make yourself attractive and interesting, have a conversation with her about your sexual expectations in the marriage. 

Ask her to read "His needs her needs". The conversation is that you have reasonable expectations around frequency and activities and that she needs to up her level of effort in the marriage and start to work harder to meet your needs. State that you have reasonable needs and reasonable expectations that need to be met and don't back down from that.

If after several months of serious hard work of self-improvement on your part, you get nothing but pushback and resistance, and especially if there is a refusal to even have a conversation about expectations (or her breaking down and crying as an evasive move to avoid the conversation), then you have your answer and you know she is never going to be attracted to you and meet your needs.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Thound said:


> So he can't win either way


Once a woman is conditioned to believe that anything nice a man does for her, says to her, or any affection he shows towards her is associated with sex AND THEN he finally wakes up to see that his wife turns her cheek even to be kissed and realizes that something is not right, he normally does not look at his own actions.He first thinks she either is cheating, her sex drive is low, or hormones have taken over....perhaps she is going thru early menopause since we all "know" that women lose their sex drive after menopause (LOL)! All a man had to do was keep his priority on his wife like he did as they were dating. If your girlfriend (now wife) didn't want sex you did not turn and run then or did you tuck your tail and pout. You talked her her, pursued her, showed her you loved her beyond sex. Too many times after marriage that slips away and the relationship is taken for granted and the niceties are gone and all couples are doing with each other is having sex. For women the marriage becomes more of an obligation, they become care givers, don't feel valued or even loved by their husbands. She might try to explain herself but it falls on deaf ears while her husband plays video games, goes to the clubs with his friends, spends the day playing golf or parked in front of the TV watching sports. 

A man has seriously take a deep look at what he has done to contribute to his wife's inability to return affection. If he ever realizes the above, which most won't since it is easier to push blame a different direction, the only way back from it is COMMUNICATION.....open honest communication. She will listen but over time she has become weary to any promises so the man has to mean what he says and back it up with action. And not stop, and not stop communicating, asking her how she feels, what she needs for emotional connection.

If a man is seeking attention outside of the marriage you might as well pack your bags....porn, flirting with every waitress, always eyeing the women in the room just sends your wife in the total opposite direction.


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## MartinBeck (Jan 19, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Once a woman is conditioned to believe that anything nice a man does for her, says to her, or any affection he shows towards her is associated with sex... /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> So what, she should pretend things are fine except to be a sexually refusing wife?
> ...


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Are you saying sex being all about her orgasm wasn't fun?

For me sex has always been all about her fun, and an orgasm for her, before I ever even get started, but maybe I am odd about that.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

MartinBeck said:


> AVR1962 said:
> 
> 
> > Once a woman is conditioned to believe that anything nice a man does for her, says to her, or any affection he shows towards her is associated with sex... /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

MartinBeck said:


> She's not attracted to you. .......
> 
> Ask her to read "His needs her needs". The conversation is that you have reasonable expectations around frequency and activities and that *she needs to up her level of effort in the marriage and start to work harder to meet your needs*.* State that you have reasonable needs and reasonable expectations that need to be met and don't back down from that.*


I myself have run a MAP and while I do agree with you that maximizing your attractiveness is important, I think you missed an important point. You didn't mention anything about meeting your partner's needs. You can be the sexist, most attractive person in the world, but it won't mean jack if your partner feels emotionally disconnected or taken for granted. 

Yes, read His Needs, Her Needs but don't make the discussion solely about one partner's needs and expectations. Both have to be met or neither will be happy.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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