# Cheating partner with great sex life, or loyal partner with crappy sex life?



## Firecat (5 d ago)

You have to choose one: 

either you have an amazing, wild, passionate sex life with your partner, with constant great sex, but he/she is always cheating on you, 

or your partner is totally loyal but your sex life is mediocre, moderately boring, relatively low passion, maybe once or twice a week.

Which would you choose and why? and are you male or female?


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## DaringGreatly (7 mo ago)

Boring but loyal. Trust and respect mean more to me than sex. But it wouldn't stop me from trying to improve the sex. (In my marriage Im the hd one)
I couldn't live or have sex with someone who cheats.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cheating is a character and relationship issue and not a libido issue.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Female. Why would I want a man who lies , exposes me to disease, spends time elsewhere, and had zero respect or concern for me? There is more to a relationship than passionate sex, especially if a lying cheater is involved. Gross


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

oldshirt said:


> Cheating is a character and relationship issue and not a libido issue.


Cheating can be a lot of things but that wasn't the point. The point is which scenario would you prefer.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Cheating is a character and relationship issue and not a libido issue.


rejection, denial of intimacy and sexless marriage is often character and relationship issues as well.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I'm female. I choose neither. I'm not the kind to settle. BTDT. Turns out, if you don't generally suck as a human and have something to offer, you can have great sex and loyalty.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Cheating by definition implies wrong doing. No one wants to be lied to.
What is your choice?


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

snowbum said:


> Cheating by definition implies wrong doing. No one wants to be lied to.
> What is your choice?


yes, and being rejected and turned down over and over is also wrongdoing. no one wants that either.

I would go for the option with a lot of sex.


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## snowbum (Dec 14, 2021)

Firecat said:


> yes, and being rejected and turned down over and over is also wrongdoing. no one wants that either.
> 
> I would go for the option with a lot of sex.


So lying, using, manipulating , and manipulating pale to good sex?😶


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## frenchpaddy (May 31, 2021)

why does been loyal have to be linked with boring sex , are you trying to say that all people that stay loyal to each other for years are boring and that it is only the good ones that are good in bed


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Firecat said:


> yes, and being rejected and turned down over and over is also wrongdoing. no one wants that either.
> 
> I would go for the option with a lot of sex.


Yes, and be that cuckold. 
Nope.

That being said, it's your life and your circus.


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## Not (Jun 12, 2017)

Neither. Period. Female.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

How boring?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll play.

I chose loyal of course. I don't want to be having sex with a bunch of other men even second hand with my ho wife being the middle woman.

I like not having to worry about DNA testing kids to make sure they're mine.

Not interested in STDs.

I can work with a less passionate partner and get it improved anyway. It's just extra work but worthwhile.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If you (or others) feel this way, get divorced, and get a FWB..

Practice, 'don't ask, don't tell' with her.

Wear a condom, and cross your alcohol swabbed fingers against pesky microorganisms.

This may come across as an over-licked exaggeration, but life often finds your weak points.
That soft alligators belly.

Maybe, Fate's new lesson learned.

Never taunt Mother Nature.

What you value most, is most often taken.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

This makes no sense. Comparing apples to oranges. Cheating has nothing to do with the sex life in your relationship. People can be loyal and have a high drive as well. It’s not too much to ask for.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Of course, in real life I'd choose neither, as I have a passionate *and *loyal spouse with a great sex life. For the poll only, I'd choose the passionate cheating spouse. It is much easier to open the relationship or start cheating myself than it is to turn a boring, passionless spouse into an acceptable sex partner. If loyalty is the key factor, I'll get a dog.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

While the OP's examples are extreme, I get what they are alluding to.

Between marriages, I dated and had sex with a number of women. A few I found out afterwards were indeed married. When questioned about it, they said they were just looking for some excitement and were "bored" at home. They had no intentions of leaving their husbands but just wanted some excitement in their lives.

That of course doesn't make it right but I am guessing in those instances, those women would have checked the "passionate cheating" box even if it were just for one or two times?


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Married but Happy said:


> Of course, in real life I'd choose neither, as I have a passionate *and *loyal spouse with a great sex life. For the poll only, I'd choose the passionate cheating spouse. It is much easier to open the relationship or start cheating myself than it is to turn a boring, passionless spouse into an acceptable sex partner. If loyalty is the key factor, I'll get a dog.


And the truth is you may never be able to bring that person into an acceptable sex partner as we hear it time and time again, you can't change someone.


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## Julie's Husband (Jan 3, 2022)

Firecat said:


> You have to choose one:
> 
> either you have an amazing, wild, passionate sex life with your partner, with constant great sex, but he/she is always cheating on you,
> 
> ...


Sex alone would not drive/has not driven my choice. I didn't pursue my wife because she had a vagina and we had no discussion of expectations. I had vaginas available if I wanted, but the relationship at a personal level was more important. I kept our growing relationship platonic until she changed that.

The poll does not have an option I'd choose.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

I prize loyalty above all else and that includes friends and family.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Not said:


> Neither. Period. Female.


This. 

Hard no to the cheating. Aside from everything else wrong with it, I'm not going to be exposed to someone who is ****ing, or even kissing others. Nope. 

No to the boring, too. People don't need to settle. 

If I had to choose I would not choose the cheating. Gross.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Neither. There are to many choices out there to be stuck with either of these


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## DamianDamian (Aug 14, 2019)

None. I'd choose any way out.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RebuildingMe said:


> . Cheating has nothing to do with the sex life in your relationship. People can be loyal and have a high drive as well.


Correct.

And conversely, look at all these people that have a seemingly Low Drive partner and find out they are cheating.

Infidelity is not dependent on libido one way or another.


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## Benbutton (Oct 3, 2019)

Neither is not an option!!!


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> Correct.
> 
> And conversely, look at all these people that have a seemingly Low Drive partner and find out they are cheating.
> 
> Infidelity is not dependent on libido one way or another.


Along those same lines, look how many times people have great sex lives and then find out their spouse was cheating. The cheating spouse goes all in to cover up their own infidelity.

Maybe the sex was TOO great?! LOL


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

In the hypothetical poll is my cheating spouse really cute and have huge tits ? We have to qualify all data points before I can answer.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Mr.Married said:


> In the hypothetical poll is my cheating spouse really cute and have huge tits ? We have to qualify all data points before I can answer.


yes, the idea was amazing sex, so whatever turns you on most.

obviously no one wants either choice - the question was, if you absolutely HAD to choose one, what would you choose, or what would the least bad option be to you?


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## Dormatte (4 mo ago)

Neither.

Both scenarios are incompatible relationships ..most likely doomed.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Firecat said:


> yes, and being rejected and turned down over and over is also wrongdoing. no one wants that either.
> 
> I would go for the option with a lot of sex.


Have you experienced either infidelity or lots of rejection? Are you married, single, divorced?


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

None. amazing sex can only be had with loving trusted partner.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

romantic_dreamer said:


> None. amazing sex can only be had with loving trusted partner.


but if they're cheating on you and you don't know, you could think they're loving and trusted, and think the sex was amazing.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Firecat said:


> but if they're cheating on you and you don't know, you could think they're loving and trusted, and think the sex was amazing.


Honestly, I can't understand how you don't know your spouse is cheating on you. My wife and I know each moment where each of us is.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

A cheating spouse would lie about where they are.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

romantic_dreamer said:


> None. amazing sex can only be had with loving trusted partner.


I don't know that I agree with that. Some of the best sex I have had in my lifetime was with short term partners.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Firecat said:


> You have to choose one:
> 
> either you have an amazing, wild, passionate sex life with your partner, with constant great sex, but he/she is always cheating on you,
> 
> ...


You need to understand that for many of us, who have been in sex starved marriages, sex once or twice a week sounds pretty damn good. 

If your sex life with your wife is once every few months to never again, having a loyal partner wh will have sex with you once or twice a week, could look like a dream come tru


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> I don't know that I agree with that. Some of the best sex I have had in my lifetime was with short term partners.


But that's because you would never tolerate bad sex from a short term partner....but you continually tolerate it from your long term partner.

Your life gives you what you accept and tolerate.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I can't choose! It's impossible! I would divorce both of them and marry my hand in an instant!!!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Firecat said:


> yes, and being rejected and turned down over and over is also wrongdoing. no one wants that either.
> 
> I would go for the option with a lot of sex.


This is a ridiculous question to me. I am a woman and I pick option #3 - I would end either relationship.

I refuse to partner or share myself with anyone who didn't care about me enough to avoid putting me through either extreme - cheating on me OR being uninterested in a loving sexual relationship with me...because both choices are actually the SAME.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

As my late father would say…”at my age I would rather have a big bowl of ice cream”.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

LisaDiane said:


> But that's because you would never tolerate bad sex from a short term partner....but you continually tolerate it from your long term partner.
> 
> Your life gives you what you accept and tolerate.


I agree with your last sentence, but I think you were missing the point there, which is that romantic_dreamer said "amazing sex can only be had with loving trusted partner" and FloridaGuy1 disagreed.

I've had amazing sex with both short-term and long-term partners, so I don't think it's true that one can only have amazing sex with a loving trusted partner.

But I agree, you shouldn't tolerate bad sex with either!


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Young at Heart said:


> You need to understand that for many of us, who have been in sex starved marriages, sex once or twice a week sounds pretty damn good.
> 
> If your sex life with your wife is once every few months to never again, having a loyal partner wh will have sex with you once or twice a week, could look like a dream come tru


Well, the question was what you'd prefer. Neither is ideal, but if both options are better than your current situation, you should think about changing things.

In the second scenario, the sex is passionless and soulless, like boring, crappy, mediocre. I doubt that's "a dream come true" for anyone.

But honestly, in a sex-starved marriage, you could probably get your spouse up to weekly duty sex just by bugging them, threatening to leave, frequently demanding, telling them on a daily basis that you need more sex and it's important to you, ignoring them otherwise, not doing anything for them, and so on.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

romantic_dreamer said:


> Honestly, I can't understand how you don't know your spouse is cheating on you. My wife and I know each moment where each of us is.


Do you go to work? Does your wife sit there with her Find My Friends app open all day to monitor that you are actually at your office and not in a coworker’s apartment down the road? Most people that get cheated on “know” where their spouse is every moment also. You are naive if you think affairs are nights out and unaccounted for time.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Bluesclues said:


> Do you go to work? Does your wife sit there with her Find My Friends app open all day to monitor that you are actually at your office and not in a coworker’s apartment down the road? Most people that get cheated on “know” where their spouse is every moment also. You are naive if you think affairs are nights out and unaccounted for time.


My wife and I have access to each other's phones, email accounts, etc, we have GPS tracker app to know where each of us is. Not for stalking or insecurities but for safety. I don't need to call her while she might be driving, I can just look at the app. Yes, technically we don't know what each of us doing at work. But I am pretty sure when people cheat there are signs. Just their partners prefer to ignore them.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Firecat said:


> Well, the question was what you'd prefer. Neither is ideal, but if both options are better than your current situation, you should think about changing things.
> 
> In the second scenario, the sex is passionless and soulless, like boring, crappy, mediocre. I doubt that's "a dream come true" for anyone.


Yet the whole premise of either accepting being in a sexual relationship, with a cheating partner with a great sex life, or outside of that option only being with a loyal partner with crappy sex life, is ridiculous. Since no one in real life is bound to, having to only settle for either of those poor choices.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Personal said:


> Yet the whole premise of either accepting being in a sexual relationship, with a cheating partner with a great sex life, or outside of that option only being with a loyal partner with crappy sex life, is ridiculous. Since no one in real life is bound to, having to only settle for either of those poor choices.


and yet plenty of people stay in worse situations because they're psychologically trapped, don't have the self-esteem to leave, think they don't deserve better, are too scared to make a change, or other reasons.

the point is just to ask which people would find worse.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Firecat said:


> Well, the question was what you'd prefer. Neither is ideal, but if both options are better than your current situation,* you should think about changing things.*
> 
> ....But honestly, in a sex-starved marriage, *you could probably get your spouse up to weekly duty sex just by bugging them, threatening to leave, frequently demanding, telling them on a daily basis that you need more sex and it's important to you, ignoring them otherwise, not doing anything for them, and so on.*


I honestly don't think you have any idea in regards to what you are talking about. 

I spent months working on changing myself and the way I interacted with my wife, then we started to see a Sex Therapist, then my wife and I committed to rebuilding our marriage.

Bugging, threatening to leave, frequent demanding, etc. will not even get you "duty sex" in a sex starved marriage. I have been there. I know. It took a lot of hard work on the part of my wife, myself and our sex therapist to reintroduce sex back into my marriage.

I've had amazing sex with both short-term and long-term partners, so I don't think it's true that one can only have amazing sex with a loving trusted partner.




Firecat said:


> I've had amazing sex with both short-term and long-term partners, so I don't think it's true that one can only have amazing sex with a loving trusted partner.


From my perspective as a man in his 70's, I would say that for me the most amazing sex involves letting go and becoming completely vulnerable. It is hard to become completely vulnerable with someone you don't trust. Others may be so reckless that they will become completely vulnerable with anyone.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Young at Heart said:


> I honestly don't think you have any idea in regards to what you are talking about.
> 
> I spent months working on changing myself and the way I interacted with my wife, then we started to see a Sex Therapist, then my wife and I committed to rebuilding our marriage.
> 
> Bugging, threatening to leave, frequent demanding, etc. will not even get you "duty sex" in a sex starved marriage. I have been there. I know. It took a lot of hard work on the part of my wife, myself and our sex therapist to reintroduce sex back into my marriage.


I get that it didn't for you. It does for some people. 

Now I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing or should be the goal (though it can be a first step). But there are many sexless marriages where the low-drive partner does nothing until the high-drive partner threatens to divorce, and then they finally take it seriously.

What happened in yours? So you regularly said you were hurting due to rejection, needed sex, would divorce without some effort from her? And it did nothing?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Firecat said:


> I agree with your last sentence, but I think you were missing the point there, which is that romantic_dreamer said "amazing sex can only be had with loving trusted partner" and FloridaGuy1 disagreed.
> 
> I've had amazing sex with both short-term and long-term partners, so I don't think it's true that one can only have amazing sex with a loving trusted partner.
> 
> But I agree, you shouldn't tolerate bad sex with either!


I got his point very well. I was just giving him something to think about with WHY that is for him.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Firecat said:


> But I agree, you shouldn't tolerate bad sex with either!


I will just quote my dear old Combat Marine dad who said "Even bad sex is still pretty wonderful". That is how two years trying to survive a war in the South Pacific without any female adjusts attitude.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

In real life I've got passion and loyalty.

In this hypothetical fantasy world I would choose the boring loyal spouse and pick up a side piece.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Firecat said:


> yes, the idea was amazing sex, so whatever turns you on most.
> 
> obviously no one wants either choice - *the question was, if you absolutely HAD to choose one, what would you choose, or what would the least bad option be to you?*


I would choose to be single. 

PS. I didn't see that on your poll.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Having only ever been with one another, guess wife and I actually have no idea what "boring" would amount to. We have always had a wonderful time together, but we have never been swinging from the chandeliers like some on here describe. We have always referred to our intimacy as "making love", which realize is a repulsive description to many on TAM. Others would probably find our lives "boring" who knows? To each their own.

Honestly, can't imagine how there could ever be enough passion to compensate for being married to a cheater. Would think just living single would be preferred.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Rus47 said:


> Having only ever been with one another, guess wife and I actually have no idea what "boring" would amount to. We have always had a wonderful time together, but we have never been swinging from the chandeliers like some on here describe. We have always referred to our intimacy as "making love", which realize is a repulsive description to many on TAM. Others would probably find our lives "boring" who knows? To each their own.
> 
> Honestly, can't imagine how there could ever be enough passion to compensate for being married to a cheater. Would think just living single would be preferred.


By "boring" I meant no love, no wonder, no emotional closeness, no true intimacy


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Firecat said:


> ....But there are many sexless marriages where the low-drive partner does nothing u*ntil the high-drive partner threatens to divorce*, and then they finally take it seriously.
> 
> *What happened in yours?* So you *regularly said you were hurting due to rejection, needed sex*, would divorce without some effort from her? And it did nothing?


I would say that a lot of sexless marriages end in divorce. In some of them the man is the LD partner who can't keep up with their wife. The reasons for and causes of sex starved marriages are many.

In my particular case we drifted apart slowly and as my wife approached retirement she started to think about what she wanted to do with the rest of her life and focused only on things she wanted. She had always had a lower desire level than I did, but at least it was something I could live with. Then she just stopped.

And yes, as a Nice Guy (Glover), who was co-dependent and needed emotional validation of myself from my wife, I was very clingy and demanding about sex as it became less and less important to my wife. So much so that she felt smothered and viewed my behavior as not sexy. So demanding, pleading for sex is about as counter productive as it can get. I would say that *in most of the relationship books I have read, demanding sex is about the worst thing on can do in a sex starved marriage*. It doesn't work the reason the LD partner is not having sex is not because the HD partner isn't asking for it. Almost all of the books recommend a period of sexual abstinence while the two work on resolving underlying problems and reintroducing healthy sex into the relationship.

Sometimes people only hear what they want to hear. It took an incredible amount of effort on the part of the Sex Therapist, who helped save our marriage, to make my wife even consider that people who had been married for decades would divorce over a lack of sex. That concept at first just wasn't believable to her. If she had asked me, she would not have believed my answer.

Did I threaten to divorce my wife if she didn't have sex with me? It was much more complicated than that. 

I promised myself (privately) that I would try to save our 38 year marriage, so that I was in a loving sexual relationship with a woman by my 62nd birthday. I intended to try everything in my power to save the marriage and if I couldn't then I would learn why it failed, change any bad habits I had that contributed to the failure and then divorce my wife and find someone else. I didn't tell her. My plan was to truly be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman and not make the same mistakes, I had made with my wife.

The Sex Therapist kept trying to get my wife to understand how bad it was to tell a man that she would never have sex with me again. Finally, after my wife avoiding answering questions and the ST continuing to demand an answer to the question, "What do you think will eventually happen, if you never have sex with your husband?" The ST got my wife to say that we would probably divorce. The ST then praised my wife on her insight and told her that in her experience in counseling hundreds of couples that is what almost always happens. The ST then asked me if I had ever considered divorce? I honestly said that I had promised myself I would be in a loving sexual relationship by a certain date, but that I would do everything I could to save our marriage before that. I wanted to be in a loving relationship with my wife, but if she couldn't, then I was prepared to move on. I also said that I had looked up the divorce laws in our state to find out how long it typically took from filing for divorce until the divorce was finalized.

That was a "deer in the headlights" moment for both my wife and the ST. The ST recovered first and praised me on my approach. She then told my wife that the decision of marriage or divorce was now hers and that she needed to be able to live with the consequences of her actions or inactions. That I was giving her plenty of time to either change or accept what would happen. The ST then worked with us on what my definition of a "loving sexual relationship was." This was done over a number of session. The ST made sure my wife understood and even negotiated me down on some aspects. At a certain point the ST asked my wife what she wanted and if she wanted marriage would she commit to the exercises and homework geared toward reintroducing sex into our marriage. My wife choose marriage. At one point my wife asked (probably as a test) if I honestly would have divorced her for something as unimportant as sex. I responded in a very clam and firm voice that making love and the emotional bonding associated wtih sex was not unimportant to me and I would have divorced her.

*I never "threatened" my wife with divorce*. I simply stated what would happen; much like the sex therapist did. My wife could make her own decisions. I believe very firmly that in marriage, couples need to explicitly state boundaries.

We are now in our early 70's, have been married over 51 years and are committed to having meaningful sex that provides emotional bonding twice a week. We regularly go out on dates, do things together and play.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Young at Heart said:


> I would say that a lot of sexless marriages end in divorce. In some of them the man is the LD partner who can't keep up with their wife. The reasons for and causes of sex starved marriages are many.
> 
> In my particular case we drifted apart slowly and as my wife approached retirement she started to think about what she wanted to do with the rest of her life and focused only on things she wanted. She had always had a lower desire level than I did, but at least it was something I could live with. Then she just stopped.
> 
> ...


Thanks for being willing to share all that. I agree stating boundaries is important.

I'm a big fan of Glover's book. Part of the issue he identified is that a lot of people, men in particular, feel toxic shame about their sexuality, and have a hard time feeling comfortable with their needs, desires, and setting boundaries.

They can't put themselves first, which is a big part of the problem, since putting oneself first, confidence, assertiveness, and boundaries tend to be attractive to women, whereas seeking approval, covert contracts, and being a doormat are generally turn-offs. In many ways, this is the exact opposite of our social conditioning; it's been compared to a machine that only operates correctly when you do the opposite of what the instruction book says.

So I think most books on relationships are not helpful and are actually counterproductive as they encourage men to try harder to please women rather than to improve themselves and set boundaries.

You write that it was difficult and took time and many sessions to get your wife to understand that this mattered to you, that your needs were important too, and that you would leave if she didn't start making an effort.

Can you see that in similar situations, serving your partner with divorce papers might have a similar effect and shock your partner into this realization?

I find it odd that you said you related to Glover's book yet were also very demanding. Part of the syndrome that he identified is the inability to be demanding, assert one's own needs, or initiate sex for one's own pleasure.

You also write that she viewed your demanding and pleading as unsexy. So the point that I was making earlier wasn't really about being seen as sexy, but getting duty sex. I was saying that in many cases someone who keeps insisting that this matters and they need it will at least get duty sex, which can sometimes get the ball rolling and become better sex.

And for men who have trouble ever demanding, sometimes the contrast of being assertive and demanding, saying what you need, insisting he matters too can be seen as sexy.

You also wrote that you didn't threaten divorce, just said you would get a divorce if things didn't get better. This is what I meant when I said "threaten" - it's just a nicer way of phrasing it, but that's literally exactly what a threat is, telling someone what you will do if they don't take action. It's your Nice Guy syndrome that doesn't want to think of it as threatening, but it is, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I also have a whole bunch of questions and concerns about what you wrote, if you're willing:

why was it so hard for your wife to care about your needs? Does she still consider sex unimportant? Does she realize how selfish and hurtful she was being? have you discussed it? have you discussed the pain and rejection with her? does she get it?

Does she want to keep improving the frequency and quality of sex or is it more like she's just sticking to an agreement at best?

What did the therapist do to get through to her? What was her position as the therapist was trying to explain? Why was the therapist so surprised when you brought up divorce? Why did the therapist try to "negotiate you down" on your needs and boundaries?


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I would say that a lot of sexless marriages end in divorce. In some of them the man is the LD partner who can't keep up with their wife. The reasons for and causes of sex starved marriages are many.
> 
> In my particular case we drifted apart slowly and as my wife approached retirement she started to think about what she wanted to do with the rest of her life and focused only on things she wanted. She had always had a lower desire level than I did, but at least it was something I could live with. Then she just stopped.
> 
> ...


It is great you were able to save your marriage but I am not sure you would be able or willing to do the same if I were in your position. Sex to me is a natural desire of two loving people. It is not something you can or should negotiate. And while you say you didn't threaten your wife with divorce you did in fact. Stating that we will divorce if we are not starting to have regular sex by certain date is a threat of a divorce.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

romantic_dreamer said:


> It is great you were able to save your marriage but I am not sure you would be able or willing to do the same if I were in your position. Sex to me is a natural desire of two loving people. It is not something you can or should negotiate. And while you say you didn't threaten your wife with divorce you did in fact. Staying that we will divorce if we are not starting to have regular sex by certain date is a threat of a divorce.


I see it differently; that somehow his wife thought that her no longer needing sex equated to the marriage not needing sex. A unilateral decision on her part that she thought had no consequences.

There are three entities in a relationship. The two individuals, plus their shared space (the relationship). It’s foolish to believe that something one person does won’t effect both the other person _and_ the relationship.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Casual Observer said:


> I see it differently; that somehow his wife thought that her no longer needing sex equated to the marriage not needing sex. A unilateral decision on her part that she thought had no consequences.
> 
> There are three entities in a relationship. The two individuals, plus their shared space (the relationship). It’s foolish to believe that something one person does won’t effect both the other person _and_ the relationship.


I never understood how sex can be negotiated. I would never be able to negotiate sex with my wife. To me sex is an integral part of love. You cannot really negotiate love with your partner. If there is no love there is no relationship or marriage. 

I understand when one or both partners want sexual intimacy but because of health, psychological or other reasons cannot engage in it then this can be addressed but general lack of sexual desire is a fundamental destroyer of a marriage just like lack of love.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Firecat said:


> .....I also have a whole bunch of questions and concerns about what you wrote, if you're willing:
> 
> *why was it so hard for your wife to care about your needs?* Does she still consider sex unimportant? Does she *realize how selfish and hurtful she was being?* have you discussed it? *have you discussed the pain and rejection with her? does she get it?
> 
> ...


Boy that is a lot of questions, so, this will be a long response.

First, I didn't view it as a threat of divorce because to me it was sharing what was striving for, a loving sexual relationship with a woman. I was committed to doing everything possible to reach that life goal with her. I had demonstrated my commitment to change myself by then. I was no longer trying to force her into anything. It was about my future happiness and my promise to myself.

(1) *why was it so hard for your wife to care about your needs?* Because she was angry with me and focused on her needs. She didn't care. She felt she wanted to change herself as she got ready for retirement and the next phase of her life. Also. sex really didn't mean that much to her anymore. She was LD and she felt that older women didn't want or need to have sex. The ST provide her with lots of reading matter as to why that was nonsense and that many older women were devistated by the lack of sex when a husband died, or had a medical condition that left them impotent.

(2) Does she *realize how selfish and hurtful she was being?* Only later in the therapy and in some follow-up marriage counseling. But yes she understands how much she hurt me.

(3)*have you discussed the pain and rejection with her? does she get it? *Yes, we discussed the pain and emotional scars later in therapy and afterwards. She does understand the emotional scars that rejection caused. One of the things we have discussed has been explaining to my wife how she can sexually reject my initiation without triggering the emotional scars I have.* 

(4)Does she want to keep improving the frequency and quality of sex* or is it more like she's just sticking to an agreement at best? 

No, you really need to understand what being low libido really means. A person with low libido really doesn't want to have more than a certain amount of sex, even if they orgasm every time, even if it usually feels really good. Even if it gives them pleasure to feel their spouses happiness and joy.

An LD partner is going to be LD with respect to an HD partner. You can't expect them to change or "*improving the frequency and quality of sex.*" While that same LD partner might be viewed as HD, if they married an extremely low LD partne, they are who they are for the most part. 

Think of it as only wanting to eat a limited amount of a particular vegetable (brussel sprouts) for dinner and your spouse loves eating it and could have it for dinner every night in huge quantities. How does your spouse deal with that? They know you like it so they don't object to it on the menu the two of you plan, but they are absolutely not going to go along with it every night. Sure once in a while from their perspective it is good. They will have it on the menu sometimes more than they want, because they know you like it and they find pleasure in how much you enjoy it. Besides you will eat things for dinner that they love.and they don't. In short it is a compromise that you have negotiated.

If you have read David Schnarch's book the Passionate Marriage he talks about every aspect of marriage being a negotiated compromise. What position the toilet seat is after the toilet is used. Who does what chores around the house. What kinds of foods you eat. When you each go to bed. How many children you intend to have. How you parent your children. What you do with your free time. How much sex you have. None of those choices has a "correct answer." Each of those is something that needs to be discussed and agreed to, either explicitly or implicitly (i.e. negotiated).

In some of his later books he talks about how the negotiated agreement or balance changes with time. The agreed upon frequency of sex may need to change when you have small children. After you have an "empty nest" you may also want to change that frequency. If one of you has sever arthritis as you age, or some medical condition, it may be appropriate to again change the very basis of negotiated intimacy. In his book the Crucible, he explains how marriage is the hardest thing two people can do, if done correctly. How you are each emotionally growing during the marriage and as a result are constantly pulling/pushing or being pulled by your partner because of the different rate of emotional growth. One partner may want to have children before the other and pressure their partner. One may want to retire early and not want to sit home while the other works. Marriage is a constant cycle of adjusting to each others changing needs.

*(5)What did the therapist do to get through to her?* Provided me and my wife with reading materials, exercises, and mostly asking my wife questions in a *Socratic* *Method* to really make her think about things she just did without thinking.

*(6) What was her position as the therapist was trying to explain?* It varied from frightened, embarrassed to surprised. The ST once said that in the beginning my wife (who has a doctorate and was a manager of a large organization) reminded the ST of a rebellious teenager and suggested that I needed to be careful to not act as her parent against whom she could rebel, but that I needed to definately become the adult in the room.

*(7)Why was the therapist so surprised when you brought up divorce?* I didn't, it was the therapist brought up the topic. I was only after sessions of my wife avoiding responding that the ST got my wife to understand that divorce was the likely outcome of her actions. The ST was just asking if I had thought about divorce. The ST was surprised, because I had been working from many months on becoming a better man and husband and I was all in on saving our marriage. It was the first time I indicated that I had boundaries, some rather hard boundaries.

*(8)Why did the therapist try to "negotiate you down" on your needs and boundaries? *Actually*, *I had promised myself that I would be in a loving sexual relationship with a woman and that I wanted it to be my wife, but if that was not possible, then I would divorce my wife and find someone else. In my own mind I had not really defined what a loving sexual relationship was. We worked on my defining what that was in a couple sessions with my wife. My initial definition was sexual intercourse three times a week with hugging and touching the other days.

The ST quizzed me as to why I would be happy with three times a week and not tree times a day? The ST made me explain my thinking in front of my wife and challenged my thoughts. After my definition of a loving sexual relationship was established, the ST asked my wife, it she had ever been capable of having sex with me three times a week at any time during our marriage. My wife said yes, because she knew it was true and if she lied the ST would ask me. The ST then told my wife that what I needed was something she was and had been capable of doing, so we were close to ending the need for sex therapy sessions.

That was a point at which the focus of therapy changed. After several weeks of sex three times a week, my wife came into therapy and stated that sex three times a week was just too much for her. She couldn't handle it. The ST asked my wife what was a number she could agree to, recognizing it would likely stretch her to her limits and be at the lower end of my range of acceptability. My wife said twice a week. The ST asked her lots of questions to see if she really meant twice a week. The ST then asked me if at the depth of my sex starved marriage, someone had offered to sell me a magic pill that would have allowed me to have sex with my wife once a week, would I have jumped at it? I answered yes. The ST then told me if I was serious in wanting to save my marriage, I should be thrilled to have a wife who wanted to have sex with me twice a week. I agreed with her.

The remainder of the sessions with the ST were about fine tuning things and making sure that sensual and sexual intimacy were introduced into our marriage and that we focused on visualizing what we wanted our marriage to look like in the future. A few years later we went to a marriage counselor, not a sex theapist, as a "tune-up" prior to both of us retiring. Sort of like taking one's car into a shop for periodic maintenance and to check it out before a long summer road trip.

I honestly believe most people really don't understand what it is like to be a LD partner. I had to really put myself in my wife's shoes and she in mine. In an LD/HD marriage, the HD partner gets less sex than they want, but enough to find happiness and emotional bonding The LD partner has more sex than they would prefer, but understands how important sex is to emotional bonding and intimacy. The LD partner also has to learn to find joy in pleasuring their partner. This is where Sensat Focus exercises can provide insights. The HD partner also needs to understand that their partner may not want to orgasm but loves you so much they want to give you the gift of their body so they can feel close to you. Finding a sexual balance is about understanding each other and negotiation a compromise that strengthens the marriage..* 
*


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

romantic_dreamer said:


> It is great you were able to save your marriage but I am not sure you would be able or willing to do the same if I were in your position. *Sex to me is a natural desire of two loving people. It is not something you can or should negotiate.* And while you say you didn't threaten your wife with divorce you did in fact. Staying that we will divorce if we are not starting to have regular sex by certain date is a threat of a divorce.


I respectfully disagree. I would suggest you read some of David Scharch's books like The Passionate Marriage, The Crucible, and Intimacy and Desire. If "natural desire of two loving beings" is not negotiated, how do couples decide on the number of children? Do most leave it up to God? How do they decide on the sexual positions they will have? How do they decide on so many aspects of what we call marriage?


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I never understood how sex can be negotiated. I would never be able to negotiate sex with my wife. To me sex is an integral part of love. You cannot really negotiate love with your partner. If there is no love there is no relationship or marriage.
> 
> I understand when one or both partners want sexual intimacy but because of health, psychological or other reasons cannot engage in it then this can be addressed but general lack of sexual desire is a fundamental destroyer of a marriage just like lack of love.


Maybe a better way of thinking of it is negotiating effort, or making it clear to your spouse that effort is required in order to get out of a slump.

I tend to agree that most people would fare better by ending the relationship when desire starts to wane, but some people have managed to get their partner to recognize that some effort is required. Over the course of many decades sometimes desire and motivation can decline and it takes some effort to try to bring some of it back.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> I respectfully disagree. I would suggest you read some of David Scharch's books like The Passionate Marriage, The Crucible, and Intimacy and Desire. If "natural desire of two loving beings" is not negotiated, how do couples decide on the number of children? Do most leave it up to God? How do they decide on the sexual positions they will have? How do they decide on so many aspects of what we call marriage?


I don't understand how number of children has anything to do with desire to be intimate with your spouse? Again, I personally cannot see how sexual intimacy can be negotiated. Negotiating means there is some compromise and one partner in this process is willing to do something she or he otherwise does not want to do. I do not want my wife to do anything sexual she does not want. I want a partner who *wants *to be sexual with me. And if partner does not want to be sexual with me I do not want to negotiate this, it just means I cannot be with this partner. Sexual intimacy is part of love between two people. Can you negotiate love?

The same BTW applies to sexual positions. There are few positions I would love to do but my wife does not like them. I am not negotiating this with her. I do not want to do and would not enjoy them knowing my wife does not like them. I just accept we will never do them.

you can negotiate who will do dishes today or who will be paying bills. But you cannot negotiate sex or love.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

You can negotiate behavior, and sex is a behavior.



romantic_dreamer said:


> Again, I personally cannot see how sexual intimacy can be negotiated. Negotiating means there is some compromise and one partner in this process is willing to do something she or he otherwise does not want to do. I do not want my wife to do anything sexual she does not want. I want a partner who *wants *to be sexual with me.


I think people are more complicated than that. For instance, some people have responsive desire, and don't think about sex spontaneously, but might be willing to have sex on request, and then once they start sex they start getting into it after a few minutes and feel arousal and desire that wasn't there before.

There are people who genuinely want to be sexual with their spouse, and share the end goal of a better sexual relationship, but they have obstacles to overcome, and it takes effort to overcome those obstacles.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Firecat said:


> You can negotiate behavior, and sex is a behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I disagree that sex or love can be negotiated. And responsive desire is not a lack of sexual desire. It just assumes that a person needs to be sexually aroused to be ready for sex. it is the same that a man with ED needs Viagra to have sex. However in both cases people want to be sexual, it is just something needs to be done for them to be ready for sex. This is totally different than general lack of sexual desire to be intimate with your partner.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Firecat said:


> ....Can you see that in similar situations, serving your partner with divorce papers might have a similar effect and shock your partner into this realization?
> 
> I find it odd that you said you related to Glover's book yet were also very demanding. Part of the syndrome that he identified is the inability to be demanding, assert one's own needs, or initiate sex for one's own pleasure.
> 
> You also write that she viewed your demanding and pleading as unsexy. So the point that I was making earlier wasn't really about being seen as sexy, but getting duty sex. I was saying that in many cases someone who keeps insisting that this matters and they need it will at least get duty sex, which can sometimes get the ball rolling and become better sex.....


I recognize that my situation might not be typical, but it might provide others with a few insights to their own situation.

Again, I didn't bring up divorce to threaten my wife. I had changed myself, changed the way I treated her, apologized for the things I did wrong in the marriage and was moving forward with meeting my goals in life.

If I was at the point of serving her with divorce papers it would have been because I had given up on trying to save the marriage. Once I had served her with divorce papers, my mind would have been made up and I would not be able to be talked out of it. Yes, I can see where serving divorce papers can be a wake up call. But I think that it would be a horrible thing in a long term marriage, it it were not proceeded with an attempt to save the marriage and a clear understanding that the marriage could not be saved.

The demanding and pressuring my wife for sex either verbally or through covert contracts was all done prior to reading and understanding Glover's book. The realization that I was a Nice Guy, shocked me. I had no idea that I was codependent and needed my wife's emotional validation to feel good about myself and that it was sex that I looked to primarily for emotional validation from my wife. I changed a lot after reading many relationship books. I may have been selective in my reading list, but I found a lot of little bits and pieces in most of the relationship books I read.

I also think that the concept of duty sex is a topic with many different meanings. I had to learn that sometimes as the HD partner in and LD/HD marriage, my wife really wanted to give me the gift of her body so she could share the joy I felt in making love and emotionally bonding with her. In an LD/HD marriage, if there is a negotiated compromise regarding sex, one party will always have to stretch themself more than they would naturally want to meet the compromise. The stretching doesn't have to be "duty sex," in the sense of pity sex, another chore to do before you go to bed, or starfish sex. It can instead be something that even the LD partner finds meaning and joy in, such as giving the HD partner the gift of their body. I am sure birthday and Valentines Day sex has an element to giving your partner something special, perhaps over an above what you would normally do.

On a mechanical level, for my wife to orgasm, she needs to clear her head of all distractions and put herself in a xen like mental state. We have some rituals (strange foreplay) where we cuddle and I massage her neck and upper back to help her relax and clear her mind. What I have learned from my wife, is that if we then have foreplay and I arouse her and she does not orgasm, she will have a very hard time falling asleep at night, which is why she prefers sex in the morning. So we can both be into making love and should something distract her mind so she looses the ability to orgasm. When that happens she will have a hard time going to sleep and will be exhausted all the next day. She had a hard time not blaming me for her getting distracted.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

romantic_dreamer said:


> .... I do not want my wife to do anything sexual she does not want. I want a partner who *wants *to be sexual with me. And if partner does not want to be sexual with me I do not want to negotiate this, it just means I cannot be with this partner. Sexual intimacy is part of love between two people. Can you negotiate love?
> 
> The same BTW applies to sexual positions. There are few positions I would love to do but my wife does not like them. I am not negotiating this with her. I do not want to do and would not enjoy them knowing my wife does not like them. I just accept we will never do them.
> 
> you can negotiate who will do dishes today or who will be paying bills. But you cannot negotiate sex or love.


Sometimes I believe that as you and your partner in a long term relationship (marriage) age and grow, you find yourself in an HD/LD relationship. I have.

At that point under your perspective, the LD partner may totally control the frequency of and quality of sex in the marriage. This may cause great emotional pain on the part of the HD partner and even guilt on the part of the LD partner.

Since there is not a universal "correct" frequency of sex in a healthy marriage, and since the chances that two people with exactly the same levels of sexual desire will fall in love with each other and that those levels will remain in sync, throughout their marriage are very remote, some couples must have other ways of preserving a healthy loving marriage.

With the help of a Sex Therapist, I have found such a way of preserving my marriage to the woman I love and who loves me. It involved compromise and negotiation.

You are indeed a lucky person to have found a partner who has a libido fine tuned to your needs or a flexible libido you can adjust to the needs and desires of your partner. Perhaps your marriage is far superior emotionally to mine. I don't know, but I do know what works for my wife and myself.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

romantic_dreamer said:


> No, I disagree that sex or love can be negotiated. And responsive desire is not a lack of sexual desire. It just assumes that a person needs to be sexually aroused to be ready for sex. it is the same that a man with ED needs Viagra to have sex. However in both cases people want to be sexual, it is just something needs to be done for them to be ready for sex. This is totally different than general lack of sexual desire to be intimate with your partner.


You're confusing physical arousal with desire. 

Responsive desire means that sometimes people will not only be physically unaroused, but also have no mental interest in sex or desire for sex at the moment, until they start sexual activity, and then the desire comes.

If you're not someone with responsive desire, this might not make any sense to you, but it's a real thing. 

A lot of people, especially women, have this pattern where they don't experience sexual desire or interest until sexual activity starts.

Now I think you make a valid point that a complete lack of desire at all times is a big problem and a difficult thing to fight.

But what you're missing is that sometimes someone will have a lack of desire, but want to change that, and make an effort to change it. Sometimes it's possible to change that, sometimes it isn't.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Sometimes I believe that as you and your partner in a long term relationship (marriage) age and grow, you find yourself in an HD/LD relationship. I have.
> 
> At that point under your perspective, the LD partner may totally control the frequency of and quality of sex in the marriage. This may cause great emotional pain on the part of the HD partner and even guilt on the part of the LD partner.
> 
> ...


There is a difference between low libido and lack of desire to address it. Yes, a woman libido may drop due hormones, menopause, etc. But if the woman wants to change her libido and is ready to do something for this. Or the woman just throws at her husband, I do not want sex and that's it.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Firecat said:


> You're confusing physical arousal with desire.
> 
> Responsive desire means that sometimes people will not only be physically unaroused, but also have no mental interest in sex or desire for sex at the moment, until they start sexual activity, and then the desire comes.
> 
> ...


Responsible desire means dormant desire that needs to be awaken via arousal. It doesn't mean no desire at all.

It is not a lack of spontaneous desire that is a problem. For instance some men complain about their wives never initiating. I find it is not a problem. And it is not even lack of desire is a problem. The problem is lack of desire and failure to admit it, recognize it is a marriage killer and willingness to do something about it.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> You are indeed a lucky person to have found a partner who has a libido fine tuned to your needs or a flexible libido you can adjust to the needs and desires of your partner. Perhaps your marriage is far superior emotionally to mine. I don't know, but I do know what works for my wife and myself.


Yes, matching libidos and sexual compatibility is the fundamental requirement for a happy marriage. People with no desire for sex or low libido are not bad or immoral people. They may behave unethically if they hide it from their partners or forcing themselves to temporarily have sex or do something sexual they in general do not want then tricking them into marriage that is doomed to fail. These people just need to find asexual or low libido partners.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

romantic_dreamer said:


> *There is a difference between low libido and lack of desire to address it*. Yes, a woman libido may drop due hormones, menopause, etc. *But if the woman wants to change her libido and is ready to do something for this*. Or the woman just throws at her husband, I do not want sex and that's it.





romantic_dreamer said:


> *Responsible desire means dormant desire that needs to be awaken via arousal. It doesn't mean no desire at all.*
> 
> It is not a lack of spontaneous desire that is a problem. For instance some men complain about their wives never initiating. I find it is not a problem. And it is not even lack of desire is a problem. *The problem is lack of desire and failure to admit it, recognize it is a marriage killer and willingness to do something about it.*





romantic_dreamer said:


> *Yes, matching libidos and sexual compatibility is the fundamental requirement for a happy marriage. People with no desire for sex or low libido are not bad or immoral people. *They may behave unethically if they hide it from their partners or forcing themselves to temporarily have sex or do something sexual they in general do not want then tricking them into marriage that is doomed to fail. These people just need to find asexual or low libido partners.


I think that there is probably much we agree on. 

However, having been in a sex starved marriage, having seen and lived with a LD partner my understandings and beliefs are different than yours. I have seen my wife during our sex therapy sessions in emotional agony crying that the only thing she is a failure at is sex and that she views herself as a sexual failure and yet she loves me so much and it hurts her so much to know that she is not capable of pleasing me.

Is everyone capable of some degree of self change? Yes. Can an LD wife become a nymphomaniac with a magic pill or the use by her husband of the "right" sexual technique? Nope. David Schnarch's book Intimacy and Desire, and Esther Perle's book Mating in Captivity both discuss how long term couples can deal with desire and keeping it from collapsing. It is not easy to keep the embers of desire alive so that the flames of passion can reignite within a marriage. It is much more than arousal.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

Young at Heart said:


> I think that there is probably much we agree on.
> 
> However, having been in a sex starved marriage, having seen and lived with a LD partner my understandings and beliefs are different than yours. I have seen my wife during our sex therapy sessions in emotional agony crying that the only thing she is a failure at is sex and that she views herself as a sexual failure and yet she loves me so much and it hurts her so much to know that she is not capable of pleasing me.
> 
> Is everyone capable of some degree of self change? Yes. Can an LD wife become a nymphomaniac with a magic pill or the use by her husband of the "right" sexual technique? Nope. David Schnarch's book Intimacy and Desire, and Esther Perle's book Mating in Captivity both discuss how long term couples can deal with desire and keeping it from collapsing. It is not easy to keep the embers of desire alive so that the flames of passion can reignite within a marriage. It is much more than arousal.


If she's crying over it so much, why is letting you have one more quickie a week past her capacity? And why wouldn't she be willing to improve her capacity.

Let's return to your brussels sprouts example. If there were dozens of options that I could try to increase my capacity for brussel sprouts meals, and it was important to my spouse, shouldn't I try those options?

Well, there are tons and tons of things she could try that might work to increase her desire. You write as if a person's drive level is permanent and unchangeable, but there are all sorts of options. (testosterone pellets, estrogen supplementation, maca root, Vyleesi, Addyi, Adderall, weight lifting, cardio, erotic fiction, sensate exercises, alcohol, other drugs and medications, hypnosis, just to name a few)

Now it's possible that none of these things help. But my point was that a spouse who cares should want to increase his or her desire and should continue trying to improve things.


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## Firecat (5 d ago)

@Young at Heart 

and what actually stopped her from having sex that third time a week? since you were cuddling, making out, doing oral and manual stimulation and mutual masturbation the other days, right? why was a third act of sex too much for her? what actually happened when she tried?

seems like the focus here going forward should be 1. getting her to put effort into increasing her capacity for sex, and 2. getting her to WANT to put effort into it.

I think a lot of what happened was dictated by the viewpoint of the sex therapist, which seems very transactional and static (this is her drive, this is your drive, let's work out a compromise).

Other therapists might take a different perspective, either by having you make changes in yourself that might turn her on more, introducing some jealousy, or by having her try various things in an effort to increase her sex drive or capacity, or make it clear to her that she needs to step up if she wants to keep you, introducing some fear and putting some pressure on her.

Her approach reminds me of an evaluative meditator in a court case, a type of mediation where you push both sides to the middle by pointing out the weaknesses in their case and try to negoiate each side down so they can meet in the middle.

I just think you deserve more sex!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I don't understand how number of children has anything to do with desire to be intimate with your spouse? Again, I personally cannot see how sexual intimacy can be negotiated. Negotiating means there is some compromise and one partner in this process is willing to do something she or he otherwise does not want to do. I do not want my wife to do anything sexual she does not want. I want a partner who *wants *to be sexual with me. And if partner does not want to be sexual with me I do not want to negotiate this, it just means I cannot be with this partner. Sexual intimacy is part of love between two people. Can you negotiate love?
> 
> The same BTW applies to sexual positions. There are few positions I would love to do but my wife does not like them. I am not negotiating this with her. I do not want to do and would not enjoy them knowing my wife does not like them. I just accept we will never do them.
> 
> you can negotiate who will do dishes today or who will be paying bills. But you cannot negotiate sex or love.


Are you saying your wife wants sex everytime you want it and never turns you down? If that isn't true then you have been negotiating.


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Are you saying your wife wants sex everytime you want it and never turns you down? If that isn't true then you have been negotiating.


I never bug my wife for sex if I know she is legitimately not in the mood - had very stressful day or has headache or not feeling well. It happens rather rarely. However, absent of these conditions I do not recall a single time in our 26+ years together she rejected me when I initiate.

I never negotiated with her about sex and can't envision how it is possible. There are certain things sexually I would like us to do but she does want them. 69, she is not big fan of getting oral. So I just accept this as the fact. I am not negotiating with her if I can do oral to her if she doesn't like it.

At the same time there are certain things that are critical to me. If my wife refused do a BJ to me this would be a deal breaker for me without any negotiation.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

romantic_dreamer said:


> I never bug my wife for sex if I know she is legitimately not in the mood - had very stressful day or has headache or not feeling well. It happens rather rarely. However, absent of these conditions I do not recall a single time in our 26+ years together she rejected me when I initiate.
> 
> I never negotiated with her about sex and can't envision how it is possible. There are certain things sexually I would like us to do but she does want them. 69, she is not big fan of getting oral. So I just accept this as the fact. I am not negotiating with her if I can do oral to her if she doesn't like it.
> 
> At the same time there are certain things that are critical to me. If my wife refused do a BJ to me this would be a deal breaker for me without any negotiation.


You are still setting boundaries and having her choose to meet them or not. You just haven't had to negotiate anything, because your wife is compliant and willing to meet your needs and you hers. She doesn't want to lose her relationship to you (as you don't to her), so the negotiation is going on in your minds, not out loud.

It's good for you that you don't have to openly negotiate with her about sex since you have similar sexual desire, but many couples who love eachother but have different sexual needs would rather negotiate sex than have their partner just dump them and walk out without saying anything about what their sexual needs are, and giving them a chance to meet them.

Your way works for YOU...other people need to do things differently.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm glad this site has all types. I have to express appreciation for a poster I don't see eye to eye with about half the time.

@Young at Heart , you are a very patient man and I appreciate that about your posts.🤠


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## romantic_dreamer (Jun 15, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> You are still setting boundaries and having her choose to meet them or not. You just haven't had to negotiate anything, because your wife is compliant and willing to meet your needs and you hers. She doesn't want to lose her relationship to you (as you don't to her), so the negotiation is going on in your minds, not out loud.
> 
> It's good for you that you don't have to openly negotiate with her about sex since you have similar sexual desire, but many couples who love eachother but have different sexual needs would rather negotiate sex than have their partner just dump them and walk out without saying anything about what their sexual needs are, and giving them a chance to meet them.
> 
> Your way works for YOU...other people need to do things differently.


Honestly, I do not see how and where I am negotiating with my wife? And what kind of boundaries I am setting? I accept the fact she doesn't like something sexual. I am not negotiating with her as I absolutely do not want to do or coerce her to do what she doesn't want. But at the same time there are certain things I consider must haves. If she refused to do them I wouldn't negotiate with her. I would tell her we are sexually incompatible and cannot be together.

BTW, this equally applies to me. If she wants to do what I do not want I would not be negotiating.


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