# What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view?



## Curious_Guy

I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.

Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.

What do you guys think?


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## jld

I agree with you. 

Have you read any of Lorna Byrne's books? She is a Catholic woman in Ireland who sees angels. She says that homosexuality is part of God's creation, and that she sees angels wrapping cords of love around homosexual couples just like they do heterosexual couples.

I don't get all the hatred of gays, either. I don't know what people are scared of.


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## zildjian_4

Curious_Guy said:


> I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
> However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.
> 
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?


I respect everyone, and I do not look down on gay people. 

However, if you're looking for Gods(Jesus Christ, from the bible) perspective, its pretty clear in the bible, and any post otherwise is talking about a different God. The bible is clear that it is an 'abomination' and sinful. God created man and woman to be together. 

Before the haters come out, just realize that I'm simply replying to the question in hand and not spewing religious dogma everywhere when people didn't ask for it. 

Cheers


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## jld

zildjian_4 said:


> The bible is clear that it is an 'abomination' and sinful. God created man and woman to be together.


Zildjian, do you know any gay people? Do you really think they want to be with the opposite sex? 

They are who they are, and they are attracted to their same sex. You can't change that. It is what it is.


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## Married but Happy

I think there's no god, and people should do as they wish, as long as it doesn't harm others unnecessarily.


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## ConanHub

To the OP. It depends on what religion you're talking about.
In the Judeo Christian Bible, Homosexuality is a sin. 
But honestly It is nothing more special Then any other sexual sin.
I don't think it's any bigger of a deal then all the nutjobs out they're screwing up there heterosexual relationships.
BTW, I know several gays And my best friend was gay Just out of high school.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enginerd

Negative religious views on homosexuality are about the preservation of the religion and nothing else. Why would an all powerful God create a class of humans that were dammed from birth? What purpose could that serve?


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## ConanHub

Hey Just write your own Bible. You sound convinced of what you know. 
Or just find a god you like.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enginerd

ConanHub said:


> Hey Just write your own Bible. You sound convinced of what you know.
> Or just find a god you like.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I guess you were offended by my statement. How loving of you!


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## ConanHub

Nope. Just trying to be helpful. Religions are born almost everyday. And if you don't like what one God says find another. Why would you worry about a god you disagree with?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerSelf

If we are talking about Christians, some are very open to homosexuals, some are tolerant in love, and some openly dislike them. Several denominations are making room for gays to worship and serve in church...while other denominations are intent to show them love, but still believe it is sinful...and other groups are the ones we see on tv holding signs about how God hates them. The issue is mainly based on how they traditionally interpret Biblical Scripture regarding homosexuality...and there is no clear-cut agreement. There is presently a lot of research into looking into the meaning of those passages (exegesis) then and properly applying them today (hermeneutics). One has to study and weigh the issues for him and herself...as religious conviction is a very personal matter and should never be compulsory...but at the same time, times are a' changin', for as homosexuality has been taken up as a civil rights issue...it will likely change the church landscape.


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## Fozzy

I agree with Conan. The bible does call it out, but no more so than any other sin. It also makes it crystal clear that EVERYONE is a sinner. So IMO hetero sinner Bob has about as much room to bag on gay sinner Frank as the other way around.

TLDR: unless someone's hurting you, mind your own business and let God sort it out.


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## daSaint

I do not condemn them. However, the lifestyle contradicts the one major purpose of marriage - procreation. The day sex between two men or two women can produce offspring, then the gay lifestyle will be deemed right & natural. Till then, no one was born to be gay...people just chose that (twisted) lifestlyle!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> I do not condemn them. However, the lifestyle contradicts the one major purpose of marriage - procreation. The day sex between two men or two women can produce offspring, then the gay lifestyle will be deemed right & natural. Till then, no one was born to be gay...people just chose that (twisted) lifestlyle!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My marriage is about much more than procreation.


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## Runs like Dog

Strictly speaking, Torah does not comment at all on Lesbianism.


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## daSaint

Wazza said:


> My marriage is about much more than procreation.


Sure...no 'unrighteousness' in feeling that way. However, such a marriage CANNOT EVER produce offspring! Why do homosexuals want (and fight for rights) to adopt the offspring of heterosexuals?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> Sure...no 'unrighteousness' in feeling that way. However, such a marriage CANNOT EVER produce offspring! Why do homosexuals want (and fight for rights) to adopt the offspring of heterosexuals?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Should infertile heterosexual couples be forbidden to marry since they cannot produce offspring?


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## arbitrator

*While the Bible certainly does not condone it(both Old and New Testament) I will defer and adhere to my Churches stance on it because I do care greatly for my Church. And if it is indeed sinful, then that's something that they, in time, can talk to God about and sort out! And while the Heavenly Father has shown Himself to be a most loving God, I would feel remiss if he were to condemn them for their actions, given His deep abiding love for all of his children.

But from a strict personal standpoint, I think that gays are entitled to the same basic rights, as well as legal pitfalls, that heterosexual couples are. In any event, it's just not something that I would ever condone in either my or my family's presence.*


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## mablenc

I was raised in a chruch that condemned being gay, believing prayer could cure it. The as an adult I worked with a few gay people. They have been the nicest, compassionate individuals I have met. They are now close friends, that have been there for me in the hardest times of my life. Ironically, this is when the church that I attended and served all my life, turned its back on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

I think they are sinners like everyone else.


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## mablenc

By the way, the state of New Mexico legalized gay marriage yesterday. Congratulations to my home state!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

unbelievable said:


> I think they are sinners like everyone else.












*"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." - Romans 3:23*


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## daSaint

Wazza said:


> Should infertile heterosexual couples be forbidden to marry since they cannot produce offspring?


Wazza...fertile or not, homosexuals cannot ever produce offspring - it is not in their nature. Why do they want to enjoy the fruits from a heterosexual union?
God loves everyone, yes, so i have to. However, God in His infinite wisdom made man male & female and ordained/blessed the union between them. Humans, playing god, have got it all twisted, and are so looking for every way/argument/legislation to make that which is abnormal to be normal.
The only reason people argue about it is because it is strange/weird, and it was not the way God intended.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

All of you who are against gay marriage, or disapproving of gays in general . . .do you have children?

If you do, and they turn out to be gay, don't you want them to have the same rights and protections as anyone else in society?


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## daSaint

jld said:


> All of you who are against gay marriage, or disapproving of gays in general . . .do you have children?
> 
> If you do, and they turn out to be gay, don't you want them to have the same rights and protections as anyone else in society?



On which side are you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> Wazza...fertile or not, homosexuals cannot ever produce offspring - it is not in their nature. Why do they want to enjoy the fruits from a heterosexual union?
> God loves everyone, yes, so i have to. However, God in His infinite wisdom made man male & female and ordained/blessed the union between them. Humans, playing god, have got it all twisted, and are so looking for every way/argument/legislation to make that which is abnormal to be normal.
> The only reason people argue about it is because it is strange/weird, and it was not the way God intended.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When did you decide to be straight? At what age? Was it an easy or hard decision to make?

Point being, it is very easy for you and I since we are wired that way. But could you be celibate for the rest of your life? Or could you convert to be happily gay just because society deemed that desirable? Because that is the equivalent of what you are asking them to do. I am not denying the biblical teaching, but I am recognising what a far reaching impact it has if you are gay.

They don't want to twist things, they just want to feel normal and accepted. 

Or should we feel happy about someone like Tyler Clementi, so ashamed of his sexuality that public knowledge of a single kiss was enough for the tragic end. Is that what you want for your kids?


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> On which side are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am on the side of God, who gives us free will, and who loves us whatever sins we struggle with.


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## Sandfly

Curious_Guy said:


> I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
> However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.
> 
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?


That's fine, but if you believe the bible is the word of God, then the old testament clearly forbids it, no matter what jesus said about tolerance, this is a pretty massive hurdle.

I'm not partisan by the way, but this sounds like picking and choosing.

Better not to source one's morality from books, maybe


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## Sandfly

mablenc said:


> I was raised in a chruch that condemned being gay, believing prayer could cure it. The as an adult I worked with a few gay people. They have been the nicest, compassionate individuals I have met. They are now close friends, that have been there for me in the hardest times of my life. Ironically, this is when the church that I attended and served all my life, turned its back on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You feel betrayed, they feel betrayed. It doesn't mean either of you are bad or wrong, just incompatible.


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## Fozzy

mablenc said:


> I was raised in a chruch that condemned being gay, believing prayer could cure it. The as an adult I worked with a few gay people. They have been the nicest, compassionate individuals I have met. They are now close friends, that have been there for me in the hardest times of my life. Ironically, this is when the church that I attended and served all my life, turned its back on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is the problem with serving an institution vs serving God. Churches will let you down.


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## jld

daSaint said:


> On which side are you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe in accepting gay people as they are, a part of God's creation just like straight people.

I am a mother, which is probably part of why I feel the way I do. If one of my kids turns out to be gay, I want him to be able to live a healthy, happy life.


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## Sandfly

jld said:


> I believe in accepting gay people as they are, a part of God's creation just like straight people.
> 
> I am a mother, which is probably part of why I feel the way I do. If one of my kids turns out to be gay, I want him to be able to live a healthy, happy life.


Which particular God of which particular religion agrees with this? 

You seem to be an atheist, but I understand why you are forced to hide it - it's not safe to admit to being an unbeliever in the land of the free.


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## Wazza

Sandfly said:


> Which particular God of which particular religion agrees with this?


Start with Christianity.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

If gays are going to hell because of Gods commands, who else? How many divorced heterosexual Christians? How many who have had more than one sexual partner? Or lied, or...... 

We are all sinful.



> John 8:7-11 NIV
> [7] When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” [8] Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. [9] At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. [10] Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” [11] “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”


Love the sinner, hate the sin, and call the Pharisees on their hypocrisy. That is the model Jesus set with the woman caught in adultery.


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## jld

Sandfly said:


> Which particular God of which particular religion agrees with this?
> 
> You seem to be an atheist, but I understand why you are forced to hide it - it's not safe to admit to being an unbeliever in the land of the free.


Lol! Where do you get atheist from on my posts? And what does that last sentence mean?

I grew up Catholic, but we do not go to church. Dh and I do believe in God and pray. I think God is pure love, the spirit of love and truth.


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## mablenc

Sandfly said:


> You feel betrayed, they feel betrayed. It doesn't mean either of you are bad or wrong, just incompatible.


No really, they just didn't want a child with autism as part of the congregation. They are wrong way wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

mablenc said:


> No really, they just didn't want a child with autism as part of the congregation. They are wrong way wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I remember my mom telling me one time about leaving a church because a homeless guy came in for a service one sunday and they threw him out. 

Some folks are more interested in the trappings of religion than the spirit behind it.


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## Sandfly

jld said:


> Lol! Where do you get atheist from on my posts? And what does that last sentence mean?
> 
> I grew up Catholic, but we do not go to church. Dh and I do believe in God and pray. I think God is pure love, the spirit of love and truth.


You think God is thus, and believe there is a God... but you don't know.

That's not faith, it's wishful thinking !

I met God once, and he told me that what most annoys him is all the Presidents who keep putting words in his mouth.


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## jld

Sandfly said:


> You think God is thus, and believe there is a God... but you don't know.
> 
> That's not faith, it's wishful thinking !
> 
> I met God once, and he told me that what most annoys him is all the Presidents who keep putting words in his mouth.


Are you an atheist? 

And how is what I believe not faith?


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## Sandfly

jld said:


> Are you an atheist?
> 
> And how is what I believe not faith?


I would give you an answer but only a person with faith would understand it. Catch-22

As for love the sinner... there is sin in a moment of weakness or ignorance ('for they know not what they do') and there is sin in which a person revels and has no intention of giving up.


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## Fozzy

LOL Sandfly, you remind me of the late Steve Irwin. Seems like your idea of a great afternoon is to find a crocodile and poke it with a stick.


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## jld

Fozzy said:


> LOL Sandfly, you remind me of the late Steve Irwin. Seems like your idea of a great afternoon is to find a crocodile and poke it with a stick.


He is funny, isn't he? He is hilarious over on that date rape thread . . .


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## Sandfly

Fozzy said:


> LOL Sandfly, you remind me of the late Steve Irwin. Seems like your idea of a great afternoon is to find a crocodile and poke it with a stick.


Blame not the man who pokes with the stick,

Ask instead why there are so many crocodiles to poke!


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## Sandfly

jld said:


> He is funny, isn't he? He is hilarious over on that date rape thread . . .


You should join us!

The woman who started started off saying that this musical was all about rape

Then this guy said he was bullied into sex he didn't want, which happens, so I try to sympathise

Then she says "you should have enforced your boundaries"

And I'm like

"No way did you just say that. Would you say that to a woman?"

And she dodges it, she's like "Rape is wrong" which doesn't really add much to the collective knowledge of the world

Then she disappeared!

Bring your stick!


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## Wazza

Sandfly said:


> As for love the sinner... there is sin in a moment of weakness or ignorance ('for they know not what they do') and there is sin in which a person revels and has no intention of giving up.


Well yes....and there are sins committed during the week vs weekend. Wearing jeans or a suit. In public, in private. It's all sin. And it you accept the Christian message, God knows about it. That is a bit embarrassing!!!


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## SimplyAmorous

Our oldest is a christian, me & him disagree on Homosexuality..in one aspect anyway...in how they handle it... He believes they are born this way... but he feels it is wrong behavior so therefor these men should hold their lusts and struggle to be sexless.. I do not agree with this... if it is not hurting anyone..they are consenting adults... I feel only a cruel God would expect them to live like that, if they were born this way...

That'd be like us trying to lay down our Romantic passions towards the opposite sex, we are wired that way....some things are just too powerful !! ...Might as well hang that one up...it's going to have it's expression in us. 

....A child molester is different (he is wired to lust after young children for some reason) some things need restrained.. of course.. 

As far as sin, if we want to go there.... we all sin... what of gluttony...boy is some of us guilty of that one! 

I do not understand many things...why God allows children to be born "Intersexed" (Physically neither male nor female OR both & Doctor plays God & corrects) Intersex - Wikipedia , WHY Children are born with down syndrome (seems so unfair)...

I know nothing about what some claim about DNA strands, etc. I lean towards alot of grace towards these people. (unless they are willing spreading Aids with careless behavior... but I would feel that way with anyone, drug abuser, heterosexuals, I would see them all in the same light. 

Also I QUESTION the original words & translations in the Sodom & Gomorrah story pointing exclusively to "Homosexuality", it definitely was other sins also....which rarely get pointed out for some reason..... 

In Ezekiel 16:49-50, it says ....."Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." 
It was also .... 1) *Pride* 2) *Gluttony* 3) *Laziness *& 4) *Not caring for the Poor * . 

The New Testament also speaks of "the sins" of Sodom and Gomarrah in Matthew 10:12-15; Mark 6:10-11 & Luke 10:10-12.


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## Sandfly

SimplyAmorous said:


> Our oldest is a christian, me & him disagree on Homosexuality..in one aspect anyway...in how they handle it... He believes they are born this way... but he feels it is wrong behavior so therefor these men should hold their lusts and *struggle to be sexless*.


You mean like catholic priests struggle to be sexless?

I'm afraid they may just find a new target for said sexuality, and woe betide when they lose the struggle, which they will lose.

Even St. Augustine was still visited by 'Succubi' in his dreams.


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## daSaint

no one is born gay! like begets like. Straight begets straight. Gay begets...oh sorry - nothing. Why do you feel homosexuality is ok but not bestiality & paedophilia? A person will feel strange passion/desires at one/many times, but does that mean you should fulfill them? If a 12yr old seduces you, will you have sex with him/her? Or if you love your dog and it has a big/thick erect ****, will you have sex with your dog? Instill in a child to KNOW that being gay is NOT an option, so that when s/he feels those passions, s/he knows not to entertain them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## over20

Curious_Guy said:


> I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
> However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.
> 
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Actually it's not about what we THINK or FEEL but what God says in His Holy Scripture.

I would want all to marry and be in love but it is not about MY opinion, but what GOD has designed as HIS perfect union, husband and wife. Whose to argue with God?

Holy Scripture is without sin, therefore homosexuality which God condemns in Holy Scripture IS sin. 

That being said I do feel that a lot of Christians hate on homosexuals, which is very wrong, they are actually then sinning. There is a big difference between hating the sin and hating the sinner. 

This is not a popular opinion, but who can argue with the Holy Word of God?


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of Simply Amorous*
> I do not understand many things...why God allows children to be born "Intersexed" (Physically neither male nor female OR both & Doctor plays God & corrects) Intersex - Wikipedia , WHY Children are born with down syndrome (seems so unfair)...



SA (My Internet buddy)
These are the kinds of things that I do not understand that challenge me. Frankly, from my judgment it is just flat unfair.

*The challenge comes in when I use my judgment and then consider what the scriptures say.* SA your words above give me enough trouble but then I am more troubled because I know about the book of Job in the Old Testament. Here is this guy Job doing everything right and he gets hammered with God allowing the evil one to take from Job his health, wealth and children! God did restore him but what about the first set of dead children?


If God made homosexuals to desire sex with the same sex then what do you expect? God makes a dog and it is no surprise that it barks! I do not understand the homosexual thing!

I was helped by a man called Kirby on these type issues. His son had run into his burning house to save his 1 year old son. The firemen tried to get him to come out but he was frantically looking for his son. He died looking for his 1 year old son who was taken out by his wife earlier.

Kirby was asked about God right after his son’s death. Kirby said *“God is sovereign”* and said no more. Kirby was not trying to be spiritually correct in front of people he was dead pan serious. I watched Kirby for the next 15-20- years as he worked me from time to time and he never changed his mind; he maintained that God is sovereign.


Kirby did not understand and it all seemed so unfair but he said “God is Sovereign” *That to me is faith under fire and also demonstrates that Kirby takes faith over his emotions and his own ability to understand.*

Kirby is not an eloquent man and is slow of speech and is not deemed as one of the brighter men in sociality. *However, he is a mountain of a man to me. I hope that I can past a test like that if it ever comes my way.*


As to what the Kirby story and this thread have in common I would say this. I do not understand homosexuality and I am going to try and be like Kirby and just say that God is Sovereign. *I have faith that God is just and have also concluded that our life is more about glorifying God than it is our pleasures. I am still working on living my life to match my conclusions.*

One thing that I do understand about God. *He wants me to love my neighbor as myself and that is what I am working on*. That is also my approach to homosexuality

I love SAs posts because she always challenges me with substance! In addition she adds knowledge to my scripture understanding like her quote below

*In Ezekiel 16:49-50, it says ....."Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit." 
It was also.... 1) Pride 2) Gluttony 3) Laziness & 4) Not caring for the Poor .*


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> no one is born gay! like begets like. Straight begets straight. Gay begets...oh sorry - nothing. Why do you feel homosexuality is ok but not bestiality & paedophilia? A person will feel strange passion/desires at one/many times, but does that mean you should fulfill them? If a 12yr old seduces you, will you have sex with him/her? Or if you love your dog and it has a big/thick erect ****, will you have sex with your dog? Instill in a child to KNOW that being gay is NOT an option, so that when s/he feels those passions, s/he knows not to entertain them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Like begets like.....prove it. Every gay person I know was created by a heterosexual reproductive process. I have not seen a shred of proof for any specific cause of homosexuality. Therefore I have to conclude it just happens sometimes.....ie people are born that way.

When did you decide to feel heterosexual attraction? I didn't. It just happened. I was born this way.

Pedophilia and beastiality violate the rights of the sexual partner. Homosexual practice between consenting adults doesn't.

The notion of installing in your child......I have seen it tried. It doesn't work, not in every case, anyway.


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## over20

Wazza said:


> Like begets like.....prove it. Every gay person I know was created by a heterosexual reproductive process. I have not seen a shred of proof for any specific cause of homosexuality. Therefore I have to conclude it just happens sometimes.....ie people are born that way.
> 
> When did you decide to feel heterosexual attraction? I didn't. It just happened. I was born this way.
> 
> Pedophilia and beastiality violate the rights of the sexual partner. Homosexual practice between consenting adults doesn't.
> 
> The notion of installing in your child......I have seen it tried. It doesn't work, not in every case, anyway.


If homosexual's are born predisposed to their sexuality, why hasn't the gene been found? 

All humans are created with either a penis or vagina. It's common sense that a penis goes into a vagina not an anus, used for waste. 

It only within the last 30 yrs or so that society has adopted this do what you feel mentality that people use to justify their ignorance.

America was built on Holy Scripture. I still can't believe how many Americans dismiss this:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## over20

Sandfly said:


> Which particular God of which particular religion agrees with this?
> 
> You seem to be an atheist, but I understand why you are forced to hide it - it's not safe to admit to being an unbeliever in the land of the free.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::

Why do so many Americans not know that the founding father's were Christians?????? :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## over20

mablenc said:


> I was raised in a chruch that condemned being gay, believing prayer could cure it. The as an adult I worked with a few gay people. They have been the nicest, compassionate individuals I have met. They are now close friends, that have been there for me in the hardest times of my life. Ironically, this is when the church that I attended and served all my life, turned its back on me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is very sad but all to common.  I have been a member of congregations like this too. Try not to generalize. I am a Christian but I also know Christian's, especially some of the women, can be very, very mean. That is the work of the Enemy trying to divide God's kingdom for the better good.

Continue to find a church to support you, not all Christian are full of judgement....

Good Luck


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## Coffee Amore

over20 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::
> 
> Why do so many Americans not know that the founding father's were Christians?????? :scratchhead::scratchhead:


Because they all weren't. Take for example Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and a founding father, he was more a Deist than Christian. He left behind many writings that show while he believed in a god, he didn't believe in the Christian God. He didn't believe in the Trinity either or the birth of Jesus by a virgin. You can read his writings if you don't believe me.


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## Wazza

over20 said:


> If homosexual's are born predisposed to their sexuality, why hasn't the gene been found?
> 
> All humans are created with either a penis or vagina. It's common sense that a penis goes into a vagina not an anus, used for waste.
> 
> It only within the last 30 yrs or so that society has adopted this do what you feel mentality that people use to justify their ignorance.
> 
> America was built on Holy Scripture. I still can't believe how many Americans dismiss this:banghead::banghead::banghead:


If homosexuality is so easy to change, why do people struggle with their sexuality to the point of suicide?


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## over20

Coffee Amore said:


> Because they all weren't. Take for example Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and a founding father, he was more a Deist than Christian. He left behind many writings that show while he believed in a god, he didn't believe in the Christian God. He didn't believe in the Trinity either or the birth of Jesus by a virgin. You can read his writings if you don't believe me.



You are correct, Thomas Jefferson was not the only signature on the Declaration of Independence.What do you know of President Lincoln and Washington? Why does our paper and coin money glorify God?

I do not want to debate with you. All of your responses on TAM have been very, very wise. I just don't understand why you have responded on this thread if you are not a Christian:scratchhead::scratchhead:


----------



## over20

Wazza said:


> If homosexuality is so easy to change, why do people struggle with their sexuality to the point of suicide?


Wow, that's a really good point. I don't know the answer. My heart breaks for any one struggling with thoughts of suicide.

I can only say that we all need to help one another...I have very strong convictions according to Scripture, but I am NOT heartless. 

To anyone who is struggling with any sin, my self included, gossip, gluttony, alcoholism.......my heart bleeds to show mercy and grace and encouragement to any one who is hurting.

Homosexuality is not so easy to change.....we all struggle with sins, and demons that cripple us from glorifying God. Thank the Almighty he sent his Son, Jesus, to die for us on behalf of our ugly sins......I am so thankful I have Jesus as my Savior because I am very sinful.......


----------



## ConanHub

jld said:


> All of you who are against gay marriage, or disapproving of gays in general . . .do you have children?
> 
> If you do, and they turn out to be gay, don't you want them to have the same rights and protections as anyone else in society?


Of course.
I don't think being gay is any worse a sin than premarital sex.
Honestly I don't think it is that special or deserving of all the attention, good and bad.
I don't think I am any less a sinner than someone who is gay.
Their are more health risks for gay men than women however.
But at least you won't have an unplanned pregnancy.


----------



## daSaint

Wazza said:


> If homosexuality is so easy to change, why do people struggle with their sexuality to the point of suicide?



I heard of a straight man who cut off his penis. Why? Because he kept falling into the sin of fornication. His reasoning was scriptures said if ur hand causes you to sin, cut it off. He raised alarm when he saw he could die from the resulting bleeding, and that was how he was rescued (after receiving medical attention). My point is, not only homosexuals suffer to the point of contemplating suicide.

Homosexuality is NOT easy to change (same with every addiction). This might give you an idea...James 1:15 says 'Lust gets pregnant, and has a baby: sin! Sin grows up to adulthood, and becomes a real killer.' when the devil holds anyone captive with sin, he is after the destruction of the individual's soul and yes physical death too, because he can truncate the person's life and s/he won't fulfill the purpose for which they were created.
God loves sinners but does he love the sin? If you take out disciplinary measures on your children when they're out of line, does it mean you don't love them?
As christians, we're called to live an indiscriminate life of love to everyone, but not to condone 'wrongness'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daSaint

Wazza said:


> Like begets like.....prove it. Every gay person I know was created by a heterosexual reproductive process. *I have not seen a shred of proof for any specific cause of homosexuality.*


You just answered youself




> Pedophilia and beastiality violate the rights of the sexual partner. Homosexual practice between consenting adults doesn't.


Paedophiles are not all rapists, they're just sexually attracted to children. And sometimes, these children too 'consent' to sex.



> The notion of installing in your child......I have seen it tried. It doesn't work, not in every case, anyway.


Prov 22:6 should answer you.

God in His infinite perfect wisdom created marital union between only a man & a woman (Gen 2:24). Anything outside of this, is perfect foolishness (in an attempt to be wise)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imtamnew

daSaint said:


> Paedophiles are not all rapists, they're just sexually attracted to children. And sometimes, these children too 'consent' to


do you really mean that?


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## Wazza

Da Saint, proverbs 22:6 is supposed to be a cure for homosexuality? Wow, things are simple in your world.


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## over20

im_tam said:


> do you really mean that?


DaSaint, I think you better clarify your sentence before it gets misconstrued..........

Any child under 18 is a minor and even if they consent, it doesn't matter. The law protects them, hence there is no consensual sex and it is rape.

This is in the States, are you in another country?:scratchhead:


----------



## daSaint

over20 said:


> DaSaint, I think you better clarify your sentence before it gets misconstrued..........
> 
> Any child under 18 is a minor and *even if they consent, it doesn't matter. The law protects them*, hence there is no consensual sex and it is rape.
> 
> This is in the States, are you in another country?:scratchhead:



I hope not to be misconstrued.

As you rightly said, the law protects them (does not permit such r/ships)...even if the 'offender' claims that his/her sexual orientation is paedophilia or the minor claims to consent/be responsible for the act. Using the same tactics used by "gay" rights
activists, pedophiles have begun to seek 
similar status, arguing their desire for children 
is a sexual orientation no different than 
heterosexuals or homosexuals. They have thesame logic as homosexuals, so should they be given legal rights too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daSaint

Wazza said:


> Da Saint, proverbs 22:6 is supposed to be a cure for homosexuality? Wow, things are simple in your world.



Yes Wazza!
Things can be that simple. Train a child in the way of the truth & life. If you don't the society, media, etc will do the training in a perverse way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> Yes Wazza!
> Things can be that simple. Train a child in the way of the truth & life. If you don't the society, media, etc will do the training in a perverse way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How many gay people do you actually know well enough to know their stories. I know many examples that refute what you are saying.

Theological question here. Taking your slant on the proverbs verse, is it possible to train someone never to sin?


----------



## norajane

daSaint said:


> Yes Wazza!
> Things can be that simple. Train a child in the way of the truth & life. If you don't the society, media, etc will do the training in a perverse way.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Didn't the Mormons try to "reprogram" their gay members through therapy (I don't think they do that anymore, but I'm not sure)? I assume the Mormons "trained" their children not to be gay, yet it happened anyway. Was that the media training their children?


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> I hope not to be misconstrued.
> 
> As you rightly said, the law protects them (does not permit such r/ships)...even if the 'offender' claims that his/her sexual orientation is paedophilia or the minor claims to consent/be responsible for the act. Using the same tactics used by "gay" rights
> activists, pedophiles have begun to seek
> similar status, arguing their desire for children
> is a sexual orientation no different than
> heterosexuals or homosexuals. They have thesame logic as homosexuals, so should they be given legal rights too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not the same logic, the notion of consent is different. This is why, for example, I regard rape as wrong, even when it is heterosexual. And why sex with a thirteen year old girl is one matter if the partner is her fourteen year old boyfriend and another if the parter is her teacher, or her uncle...


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## Wazza

norajane said:


> Didn't the Mormons try to "reprogram" their gay members through therapy (I don't think they do that anymore, but I'm not sure)? I assume the Mormons "trained" their children not to be gay, yet it happened anyway. Was that the media training their children?


Exodus International - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not Mormon, but same idea.


----------



## daSaint

Wazza said:


> Theological question here. Taking your slant on the proverbs verse, is it possible to train someone never to sin?



The Message bible puts it this way...

'point your kids in the right direction-when they're old, they won't be lost.'

As an adult, have you ever lied? My modest guess is yes. It was probably a tight situation, a little lie and it didn't hurt anyone. Did your conscience prick you saying ''wazza, you lied'', and did you wish things had turned out in such a way that telling the absolute truth would have been easier? If yes, it means that you were taught that it is wrong to tell lies and you should always be truthful no matter what. However, as we journey through life, every good virtue we hold to be true is constantly being challenged by situations & circumstances. If those virtues are not deeply rooted in an individual through repentance and God's word, they're easily blown away when they're challenged by the 'world's system.
IMO prov 22:6 is saying after training a child in the way he should go, when he gets old, no matter the challenges he faces, or what is the popular belief, he knows right from wrong...he is not lost/confused. Now its up to him to DO what he knows to be right or do what he knows to be wrong (because it is easier or everyone's doing it or it 'feels' right or its legalised).
In the context of this thread, if a CHILD is taught that ONLY male-female unions were instituted and made perfect by God, and that homosexuality is deemed as detestable/abhorrent by God, when s/he grows up, even if s/he feels/indulges such strange passions, s/he KNOWS it is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## daSaint

Wazza said:


> It is not the same logic, the notion of consent is different. This is why, for example, I regard rape as wrong, even when it is heterosexual. And why sex with a thirteen year old girl is one matter if the partner is her fourteen year old boyfriend and another if the parter is her teacher, or her uncle...



Of course wazza, rape is totally wrong!

Talking about consented sex where one party is a minor, how will you react to the adult's claim to being born 'that way' (having a sexual preference for children)?
While a sexual r/ship between a 19yr old and a 45yr old might not be 'wrong' in and of itself, doesn't it make you say 'eewwww'? Remind me why these terms exist - sugar daddy, cougar, toyboy, etc.
Don't get me wrong wazza, i'm not advocating for paedophiles in anyway. I am only pointing out to you that paedophilia is as equally twisted as homosexuality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

daSaint said:


> Of course wazza, rape is totally wrong!
> 
> Talking about consented sex where one party is a minor, how will you react to the adult's claim to being born 'that way' (having a sexual preference for children)?
> While a sexual r/ship between a 19yr old and a 45yr old might not be 'wrong' in and of itself, doesn't it make you say 'eewwww'? Remind me why these terms exist - sugar daddy, cougar, toyboy, etc.
> Don't get me wrong wazza, i'm not advocating for paedophiles in anyway. I am only pointing out to you that paedophilia is as equally twisted as homosexuality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The line I draw is that God gave people free will. Western society is essentially secular, with separation between church and state.

So, with pedophiles, I will argue the state has a duty to intercede. I feel sorry for then pedophiles, but the greater good is to stop them.

Homosexuality is different. If I see in need to do other than allow personal choice.


----------



## daSaint

Wazza said:


> The line I draw is that *God gave people free will.* Western society is essentially secular, with separation between church and state.




Once again i agree with you that God gave us free will, BUT our choices have consequences (God's judgement). And despite the free will, God WILL NOT change his standards.




> So, with pedophiles, *I will argue the state has a duty to intercede.* I feel sorry for then pedophiles, but *the greater good is to stop them.*


Once again, i agree with you. I could as well say thesame thing regarding homosexuals. I also wonder why the outcry and blacklisting of sovereign states (countries) that have legislation against homosexuals. Must the eastern, nothern & southern soceities (lol) accept homosexuality simply because our western society accepts it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> Once again i agree with you that God gave us free will, BUT our choices have consequences (God's judgement). And despite the free will, God WILL NOT change his standards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, i agree with you. I could as well say thesame thing regarding homosexuals. I also wonder why the outcry and blacklisting of sovereign states (countries) that have legislation against homosexuals. Must the eastern, nothern & southern soceities (lol) accept homosexuality simply because our western society accepts it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you put pedophiles on the same plane as gays, then we do not agree at all. The comparison is obscene by my standards.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

over20 said:


> Actually it's not about what we THINK or FEEL but what God says in His Holy Scripture.
> 
> ...who can argue with the Holy Word of God?



Uh, would that be the KJV? or the Roman Catholic Bible? or the Talmud? or the Qu'uron? or one of the HUNDREDS of translations of the Christian Bible into English alone (not to mention all the other world languages)?

The original question is 'What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view' and my answer would have to be that I try very hard NOT to hold 'religious' views!

There could be a God, or gods, or a race of gods...I don't know. Unless s/he/they tap me on the shoulder and start speaking DIRECTLY TO ME, I'm going to continue to believe that everything written down on his/her/their behalf is errant human interpretation or what some errant human(s) believe(s).

I am going to continue to exercise my human intellect (which is what is supposed to put us above other 'animals') and decide for myself what makes sense logically and lovingly. If it turns out I'm wrong, God will, no doubt, have free reign to smite me as s/he/they see fit!

My belief is that I should use my own intelligence, inquisitiveness, humanness to try to understand, support, increase the good in myself and others. If that means I do not follow the dictates of others, then so be it.

Others are, OF COURSE, free as well to do as they see fit!


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser

over20 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::
> 
> Why do so many Americans not know that the founding father's were Christians?????? :scratchhead::scratchhead:


*Because they WEREN'T!!!! Do some HISTORICAL reading, PLEASE!!!*

They believed in God, but THAT WAS IT!

Not necessarily that Jesus was God's son.
Not in a particular religion: Puritan vs. Anglican vs. Presbyterian vs. Roman Catholicism vs. Episcopalian vs. Jewish vs. Baptist vs...vs...vs...
Not in religious texts that were 'written down' on God's behalf
Many were DEISTS...look it up.

George Washington (1st President)
Thomas Jefferson (3rd President)
James Madis0n (4th President)
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine
Abraham Lincoln (16th President)
...if these weren't our Founding Fathers, I'd like to know who were!?!


----------



## Fozzy

I do believe in God, and I am a Christian. I also have a mind of my own and I believe God gave me a conscience for a reason. Each sect/denomination of Christianity has a slightly (sometimes radically) different take on scripture. Scripture may be infallible, but man's interpretation of it is not. I believe God gave me a conscience to help me sort out the difference.

My conscience says if two consenting adults want to engage in some activity that doesn't harm anyone else, that's between them.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Mr Blunt said:


> SA (My Internet buddy)
> These are the kinds of things that I do not understand that challenge me. Frankly, from my judgment it is just flat unfair.
> 
> *The challenge comes in when I use my judgment and then consider what the scriptures say.* SA your words above give me enough trouble but then I am more troubled because I know about the book of Job in the Old Testament. Here is this guy Job doing everything right and he gets hammered with God allowing the evil one to take from Job his health, wealth and children! God did restore him but what about the first set of dead children?
> 
> 
> If God made homosexuals to desire sex with the same sex then what do you expect? God makes a dog and it is no surprise that it barks! I do not understand the homosexual thing!
> 
> I was helped by a man called Kirby on these type issues. His son had run into his burning house to save his 1 year old son. The firemen tried to get him to come out but he was frantically looking for his son. He died looking for his 1 year old son who was taken out by his wife earlier.
> 
> Kirby was asked about God right after his son’s death. Kirby said *“God is sovereign”* and said no more. Kirby was not trying to be spiritually correct in front of people he was dead pan serious. I watched Kirby for the next 15-20- years as he worked me from time to time and he never changed his mind; he maintained that God is sovereign.
> 
> 
> Kirby did not understand and it all seemed so unfair but he said “God is Sovereign” *That to me is faith under fire and also demonstrates that Kirby takes faith over his emotions and his own ability to understand.*
> 
> Kirby is not an eloquent man and is slow of speech and is not deemed as one of the brighter men in sociality. *However, he is a mountain of a man to me. I hope that I can past a test like that if it ever comes my way.*
> 
> 
> As to what the Kirby story and this thread have in common I would say this. I do not understand homosexuality and I am going to try and be like Kirby and just say that God is Sovereign. *I have faith that God is just and have also concluded that our life is more about glorifying God than it is our pleasures. I am still working on living my life to match my conclusions.*
> 
> One thing that I do understand about God. *He wants me to love my neighbor as myself and that is what I am working on*. That is also my approach to homosexuality
> 
> I love SAs posts because she always challenges me with substance! In addition she adds knowledge to my scripture understanding like her quote below
> 
> *In Ezekiel 16:49-50, it says ....."Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit."
> It was also.... 1) Pride 2) Gluttony 3) Laziness & 4) Not caring for the Poor .[/SIZE]*


Hey Blunt, you are a Humble Christian who invites a spiritual challenge, LOVE YOUR TYPE....you listen, you don't immediately resort to scripture defense....you do your best to find understanding when things don't make a whole lot of sense... show mercy, A loving God would want this...

Your friend Kirby... it's hard for me to understand...although his spiritual beliefs brought him comfort, I can't see me reacting like that under those same circumstances at least not at 1st...I'd be very Angry that my son was lost...the WHY WHY WHY would be on my lips for some time.....the waste of that event, or blaming what led up to it, learning from it anyway...what his son did was out of pure love, why did he have to be taken, it is so very cruel... when others escape drunk driving & things where they brought the near death upon themselves. 

For someone like me.....it is even more comforting to believe there is no God over believing He cares about us....then allowing stuff like THAT TO HAPPEN... it's too hard to swallow... 

When I read Job the 1st time, probably in my teens, I remember understanding his wife...what was her words *>>* "Curse God and die" ....honestly I think this would be a normal 1st reaction to most people... Angry with God for unfair pain & catastrophes coming upon them..and not letting up....It takes a very grounded believer to have the Faith & resolve as your friend... to expect this from all of us.. it's not going to happen....we have to work through it ...and this is NOT easy at all. 

I don't have the answers to these questions... but I am happy about one thing... that I am not a homosexual -because frankly I would want nothing at all to do with christians/ the Bible... feeling I couldn't enjoy my sexuality, that would really tick me off. If my moral base was to be with one person and not spread infections... live & let be... 

I purposely made our oldest son sit & watch this movie...

 Prayers for Bobby: Movies & TV True story... this Mother sure learned the hard way... which person do you think had more Compassion.. the Mother who brow beat her son with scripture & shamed him -told him God can help him change... or the one she became , after he killed himself to speak for these homosexuales.. who were -as I still see it... born this way... Gotta agree with Lady Ga ga on that one...



> Sigourney Weaver stars in this emotional true story about a deeply religious suburban housewife and mother who struggles to accept her son’s homosexuality. Mary Griffith (Weaver) is a devout Christian who has raised her children with a conservative religious perspective. When her son, Bobby (Ryan Kelley), reveals that he is gay to his older brother, the entire family dynamic is forever shifted. While Bobby’s father and siblings slowly come to terms with his homosexuality, Mary turns to her steadfast beliefs in an attempt to “cure” her son.
> 
> Alienated and quickly becoming more detached from the safety of his close-knit family, Bobby’s depression drives him to take drastic – and tragic – actions. PRAYERS FOR BOBBY is the multiple Emmy Award and Golden Globe Award nominated true story of a mother torn between her loyalties, challenged by her faith, and moved by a tragedy that would change her life, and the lives of others, forever. Based on the book Prayers for Bobby by Leroy Aarons.














Sandfly said:


> *You mean like catholic priests struggle to be sexless?
> 
> I'm afraid they may just find a new target for said sexuality, and woe betide when they lose the struggle, which they will lose.
> 
> Even St. Augustine was still visited by 'Succubi' in his dreams.*


People are GOING to express their sexuality... this is what we are made of... My mother likes to read non fiction books- she has read a couple on the horrendous coverups of corruption in the Catholic Church....Priests getting Nuns pregnant...babies buried bones underneath churchs back in those days... what goes on behind the stained Glass windows... and this is who come confess [email protected]#$ It's totally absurd...what goes on in darkness will be exposed to the light... I don't think our sexuality should have restrains on it -when we are healthy normal breathing souls who enjoy physical touch & emotional bonding.... .. Monks ..and all these...taking vows they can not keep, which is pure torture.. I was reading how many "hail marys" a Monk has to do for masturbation, etc... Oh my goodness..... I see no point in this ...LIKE AT ALL.... but that's just my personal opinion. I am pretty conservative in many ways .. but some things go beyond reason..... 

The whole celibacy vow thing had much to do with transferring of land...



> Catholic Priests, Celibacy, and Marriage: Should Catholic Priests Marry or Remain Celibate?Another factor in the push for clerical celibacy was the problematic relationship the Catholic Church had with real estate and inherited land. Priests and bishops were not just religious leaders, they also had political power based on the land they controlled. When they died, the land might go to church or the man's heirs — and naturally the church wanted to keep the land in order to retain political power.
> 
> The best way to keep the land was to ensure that no rivals could claim it; keeping the clergy celibate and unmarried was the easiest way to accomplish this. Making celibacy a religious obligation was also the best way to ensure that the clergy obeyed. Catholic apologists deny that such worldly concerns were part of the decision to impose celibacy on priests, but it can't be a coincidence that the final push towards celibacy occurred when conflict over land were increasing.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> *Because they WEREN'T!!!! Do some HISTORICAL reading, PLEASE!!!*
> 
> They believed in God, but THAT WAS IT!
> 
> Not necessarily that Jesus was God's son.
> Not in a particular religion: Puritan vs. Anglican vs. Presbyterian vs. Roman Catholicism vs. Episcopalian vs. Jewish vs. Baptist vs...vs...vs...
> Not in religious texts that were 'written down' on God's behalf
> *Many were DEISTS...look it up.*
> 
> George Washington (1st President)
> Thomas Jefferson (3rd President)
> James Madis0n (4th President)
> Benjamin Franklin
> Thomas Paine
> Abraham Lincoln (16th President)
> ...if these weren't our Founding Fathers, I'd like to know who were!?!


I just did a lengthy post on this subject last night , with some facts/ quotes - *Post #3 *http://talkaboutmarriage.com/relationships-spirituality/152465-christianity-andd-america.html


----------



## over20

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> *Because they WEREN'T!!!! Do some HISTORICAL reading, PLEASE!!!*
> 
> They believed in God, but THAT WAS IT!
> 
> Not necessarily that Jesus was God's son.
> Not in a particular religion: Puritan vs. Anglican vs. Presbyterian vs. Roman Catholicism vs. Episcopalian vs. Jewish vs. Baptist vs...vs...vs...
> Not in religious texts that were 'written down' on God's behalf
> Many were DEISTS...look it up.
> 
> George Washington (1st President)
> Thomas Jefferson (3rd President)
> James Madis0n (4th President)
> Benjamin Franklin
> Thomas Paine
> Abraham Lincoln (16th President)
> ...if these weren't our Founding Fathers, I'd like to know who were!?!



George Washington 
1st U.S. President

"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." 
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams 
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." 
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System." 
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." 
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776
Thomas Jefferson 
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." 
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." 
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Han**** 
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." 
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.
Benjamin Franklin 
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

"That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

"But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure." 
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.
James Monroe 
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good." 
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)." 
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.


My error is that because they speak of the Divine and the Almighty and support Christian teachings that I assumed they were Christians. One knows one should never assume.


----------



## over20

Abraham Lincoln's quotes
The subject presented in the memorial is one upon which I have thought much for weeks past, and I may even say for months. I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and that by religious men, who are equally certain that they represent the Divine will. I am sure that either the one or the other class is mistaken in the belief, and perhaps in some respects both. I hope it will not be irreverent for me to say that if it is probable that God would reveal his will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed he would reveal it directly to me; for, unless I am more deceived in myself than I often am, it is my earnest desire to know the will of Providence in this matter. And if I can learn what it is I will do it! These are not, however, the days of miracles, and I suppose it will be granted that I am not to expect a direct revelation. I must study the plain physical facts of the case, ascertain what is possible and learn what appears to be wise and right. The subject is difficult, and good men do not agree.
Reply to Chicago Christians on September 13, 1862 (CWAL V:420)

I am glad of this interview, and glad to know that I have your sympathy and prayers. We are indeed going through a great trial -- a fiery trial. In the very responsible position in which I happen to be placed, being a humble instrument in the hands of our Heavenly Father, as I am, and as we all are, to work out his great purposes, I have desired that all my works and acts may be according to his will, and that it might be so, I have sought his aid -- but if after endeavoring to do my best in the light which he affords me, I find my efforts fail, I must believe that for some purpose unknown to me, He wills it otherwise. If I had had my way, this war would never have been commenced; If I had been allowed my way this war would have been ended before this, but we find it still continues; and we must believe that He permits it for some wise purpose of his own, mysterious and unknown to us; and though with our limited understandings we may not be able to comprehend it, yet we cannot but believe, that he who made the world still governs it.
Reply to Eliza Gurney on October 26, 1862 (CWAL V:478)

And while it has not pleased the Almighty to bless us with a return of peace, we can but press on, guided by the best light He gives, trusting that in His own good time, and wise way, all will yet be well.
Annual Message to Congress on December 1, 1862 (CWAL V:518)

Slowly getting wiser because we do not share the same beliefs please don't insult me by assuming I do not read. I am a very educated woman.


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## daSaint

Irrespective of our conscience, orientation, beliefs, etc, God is sovreign. He does whatever, whenever, however & wherever. And no one can question or judge Him. He is the 'I AM THAT I AM'
He has made known His ways and commands in His word. He knows we are humans, that we have weaknesses, make mistakes, strive for perfection. However, He will NOT lower His standards for us. That's why He saved us through grace and gave us His spirit, so that we might be able to do as He requires of us.
God is love. If we have God in us, we must live a life of unconditional love towards everyone, straight, gays, christians, islamists, atheists, etc. However, showing them the love of God does not imply that we should condone/encourage whatever things are wrong.
We should also not forget that after we have lived, we will all give account when we stand before the judgement throne.

hope none is offended


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## daSaint

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> Uh, would that be the KJV? or the Roman Catholic Bible? or the Talmud? or the Qu'uron? or one of the HUNDREDS of translations of the Christian Bible into English alone (not to mention all the other world languages)?
> 
> The original question is 'What do you feel about homosexuality in a religious view' and my answer would have to be that I try very hard NOT to hold 'religious' views!
> 
> There could be a God, or gods, or a race of gods...I don't know. Unless s/he/they tap me on the shoulder and start speaking DIRECTLY TO ME, I'm going to continue to believe that everything written down on his/her/their behalf is errant human interpretation or what some errant human(s) believe(s).
> 
> I am going to continue to exercise my human intellect (which is what is supposed to put us above other 'animals') and decide for myself what makes sense logically and lovingly. If it turns out I'm wrong, God will, no doubt, have free reign to smite me as s/he/they see fit!
> 
> My belief is that I should use my own intelligence, inquisitiveness, humanness to try to understand, support, increase the good in myself and others. If that means I do not follow the dictates of others, then so be it.
> 
> Others are, OF COURSE, free as well to do as they see fit!



First of all, i am not trying to 'impose' God or any idea on you.

*1 Corinthians 1:20, 25 New Living Translation (NLT)
20.'So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 25.This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger
than the greatest of human strength.'*

Whether or not you believe in God, He is who He is. He does not answer to you and He is a mysterious God. Though He has never changed, humans can never fully comprehend Him. If that happened, He won't be God anymore. He has ordained His laws & statutes and won't lower the standards for anyone, irrespective of our strenghts or weaknesses, race or orientation, whether we acknowledge Him or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

daSaint said:


> Irrespective of our conscience, orientation, beliefs, etc, God is sovreign. He does whatever, whenever, however & wherever. And no one can question or judge Him. He is the 'I AM THAT I AM'
> He has made known His ways and commands in His word. He knows we are humans, that we have weaknesses, make mistakes, strive for perfection. However, He will NOT lower His standards for us. That's why He saved us through grace and gave us His spirit, so that we might be able to do as He requires of us.
> God is love. If we have God in us, we must live a life of unconditional love towards everyone, straight, gays, christians, islamists, atheists, etc. However, showing them the love of God does not imply that we should condone/encourage whatever things are wrong.
> We should also not forget that after we have lived, we will all give account when we stand before the judgement throne.
> 
> hope none is offended


I'm not going to pretend to know whether there is a ranking order to sin in God's eyes. If there is, however, I'd take a guess that being gay isn't at the top of the list. More lives are destroyed by greed, rage, murder, etc. and I think that as mortals with a finite term on earth, we have to prioritize what we choose to go after when we're screaming at people.

As a matter of potential impact on lives, a jaywalker has more chance of wrecking my day than what someone does behind closed doors. I still don't stop the car to yell at jaywalkers.

If it's a sin, God will sort it out in His own time with that person. My calling on earth isn't to be God's policeman, it's to show as much grace and mercy as I can.


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## over20

Fozzy said:


> I do believe in God, and I am a Christian. I also have a mind of my own and I believe God gave me a conscience for a reason. Each sect/denomination of Christianity has a slightly (sometimes radically) different take on scripture. Scripture may be infallible, but man's interpretation of it is not. I believe God gave me a conscience to help me sort out the difference.
> 
> My conscience says if two consenting adults want to engage in some activity that doesn't harm anyone else, that's between them.


Yes God did give us a conscience. On that note the conscience is not the guide in our lives. God's instruction manual to his beloved creation is His love story to His mankind, the Holy Bible.


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## Fozzy

over20 said:


> Yes God did give us a conscience. On that note the conscience is not the guide in our lives. God's instruction manual to his beloved creation is His love story to His mankind, the Holy Bible.


I tend to agree. The problem is that depending on what church you go to, you get completely different interpretations of what the bible means.


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## over20

You know you are very right....didn't think of it like that...maybe that's why we should go to the Bible first and then search for a church.....We are Lutherans and have had to change congregations 3 times in 15 years.....Dh and I have finally resolved ourselves to the fact that we need to be in Scripture daily despite what our church might try to teach us.....I think that's what Christ want's anyway...

The funny thing is sometimes we get lazy and want to listen or read a Bible study rather than take the effort to dive in ourselves to Scripture.....


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## over20

daSaint said:


> Irrespective of our conscience, orientation, beliefs, etc, God is sovreign. He does whatever, whenever, however & wherever. And no one can question or judge Him. He is the 'I AM THAT I AM'
> He has made known His ways and commands in His word. He knows we are humans, that we have weaknesses, make mistakes, strive for perfection. However, He will NOT lower His standards for us. That's why He saved us through grace and gave us His spirit, so that we might be able to do as He requires of us.
> God is love. If we have God in us, we must live a life of unconditional love towards everyone, straight, gays, christians, islamists, atheists, etc. However, showing them the love of God does not imply that we should condone/encourage whatever things are wrong.
> We should also not forget that after we have lived, we will all give account when we stand before the judgement throne.
> 
> hope none is offended


Why do you end your message that you hope no one is offended? Colossians 3:1-2


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## As'laDain

if somebody asks me if it is a sin to have homosexual sex, i would say yes because i let the bible define what sin is to me, and it clearly defines all extramarital sex as sin. since marriage in the bible is a union between man and woman, homosexual sex cannot qualify.

if somebody can convince me the bible says something different, im open to different interpretation. 

that doesnt mean i judge them. the way i look at it....
i smoke, i drink, i sometimes lie, i have stolen before, i have had sex before marriage, i have forsaken the gathering together of the saints, i often forget to pray. i have called my brother a fool, i have put things ahead of God. so, im an idolater. 

i still try, and i struggle with some things a lot less than i used to, but i have come to peace with the fact that i will never be perfect. but, at the same time, i am incredibly grateful that i am not expected to be perfect. i really love people, and the more i am willing to admit that i suck at being a christian, the more i feel like i have nothing to hide from others. 

and that makes it so much easier for me to step out and try to help them. the fear of having my faults exposed is nulled, because i expose them myself.

i view homosexuality in the same way. its not my thing because its not my thing. i have my own **** to worry about. 


my conversations with christians usually start out with...
"i suck at being a christian..."


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## Wazza

daSaint said:


> First of all, i am not trying to 'impose' God or any idea on you.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 1:20, 25 New Living Translation (NLT)
> 20.'So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 25.This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger
> than the greatest of human strength.'*
> 
> Whether or not you believe in God, He is who He is. He does not answer to you and He is a mysterious God. Though He has never changed, humans can never fully comprehend Him. If that happened, He won't be God anymore. He has ordained His laws & statutes and won't lower the standards for anyone, irrespective of our strenghts or weaknesses, race or orientation, whether we acknowledge Him or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Does the bible represent the word of God? Are we bound by its teachings?

If so, what does it mean when different rules are applied to different people in different circumstance? See for example Matthew 19:7-8 and Acts 15:1-21.

I am not arguing about what the bible says, I am differing from you in how we should handle it.

If someone use gay and wonders if they can be a gay Christian, I would say to them. Become a Christian, pray, read your bible, and see what happens. And heterosexuals struggle to live up to the biblical standard too.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

*Written strictly with a view to underpinning my assertion that the Founding Fathers of America were NOT all Christians.​*Washington:
"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction." [responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ]

"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists...." [to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon]

Adams:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." [The Treaty of Tripoli: submitted to the Senate by President John Adams, receiving ratification unanimously from the U.S. Senate on June 7, 1797, and signed by Adams, taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797]

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" [letter to Thomas Jefferson] 

Jefferson:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." [Notes on Virginia, 1782]

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." [letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787]

Madis0n: 
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774]

Franklin:
“...some books against Deism fell into my hands; . . . The arguments of the Deists . . . appeared to me much stronger than the refutation; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” [autobiography]

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." [Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion 1728] 

Paine:
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." 

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." 

Lincoln:
"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession." [Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis]

"It was everywhere contended that no Christian ought to vote for me because I belonged to no church, and was suspected of being a Deist." [writing to his supporters after he lost a campaign for Congress, 1843]


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## Mr Blunt

> *Quote by Simply Amorous (SA)*
> Hey Blunt, you are a Humble Christian who invites a spiritual challenge, LOVE YOUR TYPE....you listen, you don't immediately resort to scripture defense....you do your best to find understanding when things don't make a whole lot of sense... show mercy, A loving God would want this...


Thank you SA, that is a very high compliment and I try to live up to that persona but I do not always succeed. 





> Your friend Kirby... it's hard for me to understand...although his spiritual beliefs brought him comfort, I can't see me reacting like that under those same circumstances at least not at 1st


I feel the same as you SA, just cannot see me being that spiritual, God would have to help me.






> ....It takes a very grounded believer to have the Faith & resolve as your friend... to expect this from all of us.. it's not going to happen....we have to work through it ...and this is NOT easy at all.


I do not expect that from all in fact I doubt that I would be that grounded. However, what Kirby did impressed me!! *Frankly I do not believe that mankind can react that way unless God’s spirit comes to him in an unusual way.* As a man Kirby is not very impressive but how he has lived his life the last 15-20 years is something that takes the spirit of God to be involved and is very powerful, IMO. What Kirby has demonstrated with his life has built my faith more than hundreds of discussions on spirituality. Don’t get me wrong, I like to have good discussions on spirituality but talk just does not it for me like the long term actions of someone living the spiritual life!





> Prayers for Bobby: Movies & TV True story... this Mother sure learned the hard way... which person do you think had more Compassion.. the Mother who brow beat her son with scripture & shamed him -told him God can help him change... or the one she became , after he killed himself to speak for these homosexuales..


This part really helped to clarify my position on the homosexual question (Thanks again SA!). The main message of God-Jesus is COMPASSION. Yes we have to make decisions on positions of homosexuality and other issues but I feel that the teachings of Jesus are overwhelming promoting true compassion. Not mushy or fake compassion but the kind of compassion that Jesus demonstrated.


It has been hard for me in the past to stay away from being the defender of my faith. What I mean is that I have been energized in the past by proclaiming what is sin. I still do that on rare occasions if I think that it will do some good. But I also like to remember the picture that I have hanging on my wall that has the words of:
*“ I prayed for justice, then I examined myself and then I prayed for mercy”


Life and God has moved me off the judgment seat on several occasions!*

However, I know that Christ’s call for compassion-Love is dominate. Christ summed it up very nicely when He said 
*Matthew 22
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”*

I am not the authority on what is sin but it is my desire to strive to fulfill the greatest commandments of God that is stated in Matthew 22 above.

*My main responsibility in the homosexual issue is to leave out my judgment of the homosexual’s soul and insert the compassion that Jesus demonstrated.* If I get too involved with pointing out other people’s sins I will snuff out Christ’s compassion. That would derail my actions in strive to please God and get closer to His greatest commandments.


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## SimplyAmorous

Fozzy said:


> *I'm not going to pretend to know whether there is a ranking order to sin in God's eyes. If there is, however, I'd take a guess that being gay isn't at the top of the list. More lives are destroyed by greed, rage, murder, etc. and I think that as mortals with a finite term on earth, we have to prioritize what we choose to go after when we're screaming at people.*












When I was starting to "loose my religion" I was studying things like this....this EQUAL sin business has bothered me for a lifetime.... I remember reading a ton on both sides of this.. if all sins are equal (which I can't find any reason in whatsoever, might as well throw it out the window)... that lets say... a Mother steals a loaf of bread to feed her starving child....vs a Ted Bundy serial killer.... I had Christians arguing with me they are the same, both worthy of hell..(To me, this makes God a Monster, I can't swallow it)...but I get where they are coming from, that we ALL SIN...Ok... 

And obviously on earth, with our reason, we deal with the consequences very differently... In my view GOD is reasonable also ....

LIke.... how do we just throw "motivation and intention out the window" here... I can't do that...... I wanted so bad to prove them wrong, I took it upon myself to study these 2 sides...and guess what... scripture appears to support BOTH... that all sins are the same... and that indeed some sins are weighter....so what does one do with that ! 

To support my view....Jesus suggested that some sins are worse than others when he told the Pharisees they were straining at a gnat (something little, but still bad) but swallowed a camel (something bigger and worse). “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel” (Matthew 23: 23 – 24).

Then there was Jesus’ words to Pilate? He said, *“The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin”* (John 19:11).

That was pretty clear !



> *Fozzy said*: As a matter of potential impact on lives, a jaywalker has more chance of wrecking my day than what someone does behind closed doors. I still don't stop the car to yell at jaywalkers.
> 
> *If it's a sin, God will sort it out in His own time with that person. My calling on earth isn't to be God's policeman, it's to show as much grace and mercy as I can.*


My feelings also.

Matthew 11:23-24 says, “If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” Because these people refused to soften their hearts, Jesus tells them that they will have an even harsher judgment and punishment than two towns destroyed for their wickedness.

As I understand ...Pride is THE SIN that is the worst...it taints every virtue.... Humility, Generosity, Meekness, Kindness, Temperance...etc 



> *Mr Blunt said:* This part really helped to clarify my position on the homosexual question (Thanks again SA!). *The main message of God-Jesus is COMPASSION. Yes we have to make decisions on positions of homosexuality and other issues but I feel that the teachings of Jesus are overwhelming promoting true compassion. Not mushy or fake compassion but the kind of compassion that Jesus demonstrated*.


 That's right... it's about putting yourself in another shoes and having compassion. No matter our beliefs... just being inspired by Jesus Teachings, or others in our own lives (Like your friend Kirby)...and knowing how WE would want to be treated ourselves -somehow gives us the Power -the will to give back like that... 

I like this quote.. but pretty much how I look upon these things...


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## jld

SA, have you read any Lorna Byrne books? She is an Irish mystic who sees angels. 

She said the angels have told her that we have free will and are creating our future. A different position than, "God is in control."


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## frusdil

daSaint said:


> ...no one was born to be gay...people just chose that (twisted) lifestlyle!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't really believe that do you? That people choose to be gay?

Seriously??? :scratchhead:


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## Anon Pink

daSaint said:


> no one is born gay! like begets like. Straight begets straight. Gay begets...oh sorry - nothing. Why do you feel homosexuality is ok but not bestiality & paedophilia? A person will feel strange passion/desires at one/many times, but does that mean you should fulfill them? If a 12yr old seduces you, will you have sex with him/her? Or if you love your dog and it has a big/thick erect ****, will you have sex with your dog? Instill in a child to KNOW that being gay is NOT an option, so that when s/he feels those passions, s/he knows not to entertain them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like you might be struggling with an unnatural love for dogs. If you pray hard enough..Oooh sorry scratch the word HARD, if you pray reverently enough, your unnatural doggy lust will be taken away be Jesus! Amen.


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## DTO

I went online and read up on the relevant Bible verses. I read several scriptures prohibiting homosexual acts, but none condemning a homosexual mindset.

Either way, it seems that a homosexual marriage is against God's word. I'll agree that it makes no sense to create someone with an urge they cannot properly fulfill. But if you accept the Bible as divine, you really cannot reach another conclusion.

That being said I don't agree with these various religious figures arguing that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry. I believe that Christians are called to be kind and compassionate as an example to others. Forbidding such marriages legislatively, IMO, is essentially state-sponsored discrimination.

Historically, people were treated badly when the government says you are not entitled to the same rights as most other people (see our pre-Civil Rights movement history). Banning gay marriage will only legitimize to an extent the current bias many people have against homosexuals, which is neither kind nor compassionate. It's not reasonable to think that you can ban gay marriage and gay people will be treated the same as any other person in non-sexual situations.


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## tryingtobebetter

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd be very Angry that my son was lost...the WHY WHY WHY would be on my lips for some time.....the waste of that event, or blaming what led up to it, learning from it anyway...what his son did was out of pure love, why did he have to be taken, it is so very cruel... when others escape drunk driving & things where they brought the near death upon themselves.
> 
> For someone like me.....it is even more comforting to believe there is no God over believing He cares about us....then allowing stuff like THAT TO HAPPEN... it's too hard to swallow...
> 
> When I read Job the 1st time, probably in my teens, I remember understanding his wife...what was her words *>>* "Curse God and die" ....honestly I think this would be a normal 1st reaction to most people... Angry with God for unfair pain & catastrophes coming upon them..and not letting up....It takes a very grounded believer to have the Faith & resolve as your friend... to expect this from all of us.. it's not going to happen....we have to work through it ...and this is NOT easy at all.
> 
> I don't have the answers to these questions...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Monks ..and all these...taking vows they can not keep, which is pure torture.. I was reading how many "hail marys" a Monk has to do for masturbation, etc... Oh my goodness..... I see no point in this ...LIKE AT ALL.... but that's just my personal opinion. I am pretty conservative in many ways .. but some things go beyond reason..... END QUOTE
> 
> 
> My uncle, the Catholic bishop, when asked why God permitted suffering, would say 'I/We do not know'. I find religion much more impressive when it does not pretend to have all the answers. One can of course argue that it ennobles us (which it may do but not always) or that Christ on the Cross shares our suffering but these do not fully answer the question.
> 
> As for chastity, I, a Catholic, agree that land use was a factor in past decisions (does that mean I am not an apologist?).
> 
> Monasticism has a rather different origin, as it emerged before the Church became allied, rather unfortunately I think, with the Roman state. Men (and women) went off into the desert to practice their (sometimes persecuted) faith. Some found that being unmarried enabled them to concentrate more successfully on the main commandments (love God and love your neighbour (i.e. everyone)) and that they could pursue their vocation most effectively subject to a rule (like St Benedict's) and therefore formed monasteries.
> 
> The origin of the word monk is monos - Greek for sole or alone - so it would be a contradiction in terms for a monk to be part of a couple. Celibacy is part of the calling, and of course it is meant to be voluntary (did not always work that way in the past) and monasteries are generally advised to make it difficult for novices to join, to test their resolve.
> 
> Which is not say that monastic life is easy - I rather think it is more easily led by those with LD.
> 
> As for the original point of the OP, I look to the Scriptures where it says 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice'. I think that is what Christ considered most important.


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## SadSamIAm

I often wonder who wrote the bible?

Some person (or people) interpreted God's message.

I am pretty sure they made a number of mistakes.


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## over20

SadSamIAm said:


> I often wonder who wrote the bible?
> 
> Some person (or people) interpreted God's message.
> 
> I am pretty sure they made a number of mistakes.


I have gone to Christian schools my whole life... a good and sometimes bad thing....Holy Scripture was written by men who are inspired by God, Christ, Holy Spirit... the 3 in1. To be inspired by God means to be God-breathed, which is different than interpreting God's Word

There are NO mistakes in the Holy Scriptures because the Trinity, while yes using men, his greatest creation, wrote HIS Love Book to Humanity.

It's such a hard concept for us all to grasp. :scratchhead:


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## Curious_Guy

I feel like even if it's good to read the Bible, one can't deem it as very accurate.

God says something, the Disciples say their version, the prophets say their version, people say their version, and Bible continues to be watered down.


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## Mr Blunt

The Bible has influenced the whole western world for over 1500 years. It has been attacked and examined by some of the greatest minds in the entire western world for over 1500 years. Some of the greatest scientist the world has ever known has attested to the greatness of the Bible.

People on the internet can give their 1-2 paragraph opinions (mostly void of any facts) but the bible will continue to have great influence, value, and be the greatest book ever written.

*In case anyone wants a few facts (instead of opinions) that the Bible is great and unique, you can read several below:[/*SIZE]

The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible 


I	Written over a 1500 year time span and in many different countries

II	Written by more than 40 authors from all walks of life:
Political Leader-Moses
King-David
Herdsman-Amos
Military General-Joshua
Prime Minister-Daniel
Philosopher- Solomon
Physician-Luke
Fisherman-Peter
Rabbi-Paul

III	Written in three languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek

IV	Written in a variety of literary styles:
Poetry, historical narrative, song, romance, biography, autobiography, 
Law, prophecy


V	Addressed hot topics:	With an amazing degree of harmony
Marriage, divorce, remarriage, homosexuality, adultery, obedience to 
Authority, Character development, parenting, nature and revelation of God.

CONCIDER;
Take just 10 authors (Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Hume Kant, Darwin, etc) from the Great Books of the Western World with one generation, one time, one language and all addressing one controversial subject. Would the authors agree with one another?

If a person were sincerely seeking the truth would they not consider seriously the Bible’s unique quality in terms of its continuity?


*VI	The Bible has sold more than a BILLION copies over a 2000-year period. No 
other book in history comes close to this reality.

VII	The Bible has been translated into more than 2,200 languages. No 
other book in history comes close to this reality.


VIII	Compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence to support it than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.*

CONSIDER:
Jews preserved the Bible as no other manuscript has been preserved. With their massora (parva, magna, and finalis) they kept tabs on every letter, syllable, word and paragraph. They had special classes of men within their culture whose sole duty was to preserve and transmit these documents with practically perfect fidelity----scribes, lawyers, and massoretes. 
Who ever counted the letters and syllables and words of Homer, Plato, Aristotle, Shakespeare, Hume, and Darwin?


IX	The Bible has withstood persecution. Many powerful countries have tried to ban and outlaw the bible from the Roman Empire to modern day communism.

CONSIDER:
In AD 303, the Roman Emperor Dioclectian issued an edict to stop Christians from worshipping and to destroy their scriptures. Twenty-five years later the Roman Emperor Constantine issued an edict ordering those fifty copies of the Scriptures should be prepared at the government’s expense

The French infidel Voltaire’s prediction of the extinction of Christianity and the Bible in a hundred years Geisler and Nix point out that “only 50 years after his death the Geneva Bible Society used Voltaire’s printing press and house to produce stacks of Bibles”
*The Bible’s enemies come and go but the Bible remains.
If the Bible had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago.* 

The Assured Results of Higher Criticism developed the “documentary hypothesis” that the Pentateuch could not have been written by Moses, as the “assured results of higher criticism” had proven that writing was not in existence at the time of Moses or, if in existence, was used sparingly. Therefore, it was concluded that it had to be of later authorship.
Then some fellows discovered the “black stele.” It had wedged shape characters on it and contained the detail of Hammurabi which post dated Moses writings buy at least three centuries.



X	Prophecy

CONSIDER
Other books claim divine inspiration, such as the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and parts of the (Hindu) Veda. But none of these books contains predictive prophecy.
Mohammedanism cannot point to any prophecies of the coming of Mohammed uttered hundreds of years before his birth.

XI	Character

The bible deals very frankly with the sins of its characters, even when those sins reflect badly on God’s chosen people, leaders, and the biblical writers themselves.

For Example:

The sins of the patriarchs are mentioned in Genesis chapter 12 and 49.
The sins of the people are denounced in Deaut. 9
King David’s adultery with Bathsheba in 2nd Samuel 11-12
The Gospel’s Evangelist paint their own faults and those of the apostles
The disorder in the church is exposed in 1 Corinthians 1 and 15 also in 2nd Corinth 2


----------



## hawkeye

over20 said:


> I have gone to Christian schools my whole life... a good and sometimes bad thing....Holy Scripture was written by men who are inspired by God, Christ, Holy Spirit... the 3 in1. To be inspired by God means to be God-breathed, which is different than interpreting God's Word
> 
> 
> 
> There are NO mistakes in the Holy Scriptures because the Trinity, while yes using men, his greatest creation, wrote HIS Love Book to Humanity.
> 
> 
> 
> It's such a hard concept for us all to grasp. :scratchhead:



No mistakes in there? Not even one?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> No mistakes in there? Not even one?


*No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE*


----------



## hawkeye

Mr Blunt said:


> *No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE*


Ah yes, a great dodge. Any error is just "not part of the main message." LOL


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Ah yes, a great dodge. Any error is just "not part of the main message." LOL


Fair comment, but on the other hand there is a whole lot of thought that needs to go into an intelligent reading of the bible. 

I can point you to examples of what Blunt is talking about. The two accounts of the death of Judas is a good example.

Can you point out an error that destroys the main message? Ie can you prove Blunt wrong?


----------



## hawkeye

No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.


What he was saying is if you understand the background and literary forms of the bible the main message is consistent. On the other hand, if you want to nit pick, you can find things to nit pick about.

Is it simple? Heck no. But life is complicated, God is complicated. You want to wrap ultimate truth up in a thirty second sound bite. Good luck with that.

Religion is a matter of faith. Choosing to believe the message about a God whose existence you cannot categorically prove is a matter of faith. Choosing not to believe in a God whose existence you cannot categorically disprove is likewise a matter of faith.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> What he was saying is if you understand the background and literary forms of the bible the main message is consistent. On the other hand, if you want to nit pick, you can find things to nit pick about.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it simple? Heck no. But life is complicated, God is complicated. You want to wrap ultimate truth up in a thirty second sound bite. Good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Religion is a matter of faith. Choosing to believe the message about a God whose existence you cannot categorically prove is a matter of faith. Choosing not to believe in a God whose existence you cannot categorically disprove is likewise a matter of faith.



Why couldn't the almighty god come up with a better holy book? Is this really the best he could do? Something so convoluted that there are a zillion different denominations who all have different interpretations? Oh wait, don't bother, that's just us fallen, sinful humans - too stupid to figure out gods perfect holy book.

And not believing in a god does not require faith. If you think so you don't understand the word.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Why couldn't the almighty god come up with a better holy book? Is this really the best he could do? Something so convoluted that there are a zillion different denominations who all have different interpretations? Oh wait, don't bother, that's just us fallen, sinful humans - too stupid to figure out gods perfect holy book.
> 
> And not believing in a god does not require faith. If you think so you don't understand the word.


Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.


Burden of proof. Who has it? Hint: it ain't me.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Burden of proof. Who has it? Hint: it ain't me.


You made statements, I questioned them. You have been unable to prove them. Of course you don't need to, but then if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously. 

There is a whole world out there. Some parts can be proven, some can be reasonably hypothesised about scientifically, and then there is a whole realm of truth about beauty, philosophy, spirituality and so on, for which the scientific method has been as ham fisted a tool as using a lump hammer to drive screws.

I can tell you its worth checking out. Whether you do it is up to you.


----------



## Coffee Amore

Wazza said:


> Prove to me God doesn't exist. If you can't prove it, explain to me why you regard it as something other than a step of faith to be sure God does not exist.


It's actually not that hard. Pick any god besides your own (i.e Zeus or Odin). Give reasons why you don't believe in that god. Now apply those reasons to your own god. 

Most people are atheists for the vast majority of gods that have ever existed in the world, but some of us have gone one god further.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> You made statements, I questioned them. You have been unable to prove them. Of course you don't need to, but then if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously.
> 
> There is a whole world out there. Some parts can be proven, some can be reasonably hypothesised about scientifically, and then there is a whole realm of truth about beauty, philosophy, spirituality and so on, for which the scientific method has been as ham fisted a tool as using a lump hammer to drive screws.
> 
> I can tell you its worth checking out. Whether you do it is up to you.


This isn't difficult at all. If I made the claim that a god DOES NOT EXIST, I would have to be able to prove that. I'm NOT making that claim. I simply do not believe any god claims I've heard thus far.

Like Coffee Amore astutely points out, what's your view on Zeus? Does it take FAITH do not believe in Zeus? No. Because there's no evidence that such a being exists.


----------



## Wazza

I believe in God. I approach God through the Christian teaching and tradition. There are two separate decisions there.

If someone pursues God through another tradition I respect that. I admit to not having discussed spiritual matters with a follower of Zeus or Odin lately.

I guess I could focus more on comparative religious experience. Would I be better off in Muslim or Shinto? I just think it is a better use of my time to pick a path and follow it.

By faith. I can argue for the reasonableness of it and why I believe it. I can't prove it though.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> No mistakes in there? Not even one?
> No mistakes in the MAIN message, NONE
> 
> *By Wazza*
> Can you point out an error that destroys the main message? Ie can you prove Blunt wrong?
> 
> *By Hawkeye*
> No, because his standard is so vague it's essentially meaningless.


*A main message*
Mankind has fallen into selfishness
Mankind has separated himself from God
God wants to forgive and redeem mankind
God paid the price to give mankind a chance to be reconciled back to Him

Now I have been very specific about two issues. They are:
1	The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible
2	A main message of the Bible


Hawkeye, so far you have made the judgment that I am dogging, vague, and that my position is meaningless.
In addition to you being judgmental, have you been vague? 

*Hawkeye, so far all you have just told us is what you do not believe (see your quote below). What meaning does that have?*



> *Quote of Hawkeye*
> I'm NOT making that claim. I simply do not believe any god claims I've heard thus far.


*Hawkeye, How about you tell us what you believe instead of being judgmental and vague?* Of course you do not have to tell us anything you can just keep taking shots at the Bible and the Christian faith without taking a stand but I think Wazza has already addressed that with his quote below



> *By Wazza*
> “…if you can't back up what you say, none needs to take your opinions seriously”


----------



## hawkeye

Mr Blunt said:


> *A main message*
> Mankind has fallen into selfishness
> Mankind has separated himself from God
> God wants to forgive and redeem mankind
> God paid the price to give mankind a chance to be reconciled back to Him
> 
> Now I have been very specific about two issues. They are:
> 1	The uniqueness and greatness of the Bible
> 2	A main message of the Bible
> 
> 
> Hawkeye, so far you have made the judgment that I am dogging, vague, and that my position is meaningless.
> In addition to you being judgmental, have you been vague?
> 
> *Hawkeye, so far all you have just told us is what you do not believe (see your quote below). What meaning does that have?*
> 
> 
> 
> *Hawkeye, How about you tell us what you believe instead of being judgmental and vague?* Of course you do not have to tell us anything you can just keep taking shots at the Bible and the Christian faith without taking a stand but I think Wazza has already addressed that with his quote below


There seems to a basic misunderstanding of what atheism is, what burden of proof is, and who the burden of proof falls upon. This was explained earlier, but I guess I'll go through it again.

- I am not making any claim about a god, ie: whether one exists or not
- I simply say I don't believe the claims that have been made
- those who claim there is a god have the burden of proof to provide evidence of that claim
- if you can't provide that evidence, there is no good reason to believe it (and you yourselves admit there is no evidence because you say you have to have faith)

The other way to look at it was also laid out earlier.... Do you believe in Zeus? I guarantee you approach and answer that question the same way I do about your god. Now, does it take "faith" to not believe in Zeus? Are you making some kind of claim about the world by not believing in Zeus?

As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> There seems to a basic misunderstanding of what atheism is, what burden of proof is, and who the burden of proof falls upon. This was explained earlier, but I guess I'll go through it again.
> 
> - I am not making any claim about a god, ie: whether one exists or not
> - I simply say I don't believe the claims that have been made
> - those who claim there is a god have the burden of proof to provide evidence of that claim
> - if you can't provide that evidence, there is no good reason to believe it (and you yourselves admit there is no evidence because you say you have to have faith)
> 
> The other way to look at it was also laid out earlier.... Do you believe in Zeus? I guarantee you approach and answer that question the same way I do about your god. Now, does it take "faith" to not believe in Zeus? Are you making some kind of claim about the world by not believing in Zeus?
> 
> As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?


"I can't prove it, faith is required" is not the same as "there is no evidence".

The evidence I see is not mathematically conclusive in the same way that some scientific evidence is. To me the creation does provide evidence of the creator, though. 

I'd like to know, are you atheist (does not believe there is a God) or agnostic (doesn't know).


----------



## Mr Blunt

> By Hawkeye
> As far as what I do believe...what specifically do you want to know?


Can’t you state your main beliefs like I did?

Ok I will ask you a few specific questions about beliefs


*Do you believe that mankind has fallen into selfishness?

Do you believe there is such a thing as sin?

Do you believe in any superior being which also includes being morally superior?

Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?

Do you believe that a person has an eternal soul?

Do you believe that after death that a person can live in a life that is better than this life?

Do you believe that mankind has all the answers to life and death?*


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> "I can't prove it, faith is required" is not the same as "there is no evidence".
> 
> The evidence I see is not mathematically conclusive in the same way that some scientific evidence is. To me the creation does provide evidence of the creator, though.
> 
> I'd like to know, are you atheist (does not believe there is a God) or agnostic (doesn't know).


Again, your terms are wrong. Agnosticism/gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism/Atheism is about belief. Everybody is one of each. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't KNOW there is no god, but I don't believe in one. I'd venture a guess that most atheists are agnostic atheists. Hell, I'd venture most religious folks are agnostic theists if they'd be honest with themselves.

If your only proof is god is "creation", you really have no proof. I can claim anything "created" it all and have just as much proof as you.


----------



## hawkeye

Mr Blunt said:


> Can’t you state your main beliefs like I did?
> 
> Ok I will ask you a few specific questions about beliefs


Well, atheism is a lack of belief in a single solitary claim. What my "main beliefs" are is incredibly vague. I believe Dodge makes the best trucks. I believe Old Milwaukee is an underrated beer. I believe it's really cold outside right now.



> Do you believe that mankind has fallen into selfishness?


Mankind has always been selfish. Hell, just your Old Testament as a guide. The Israelites roamed around raping and pillaging everything, by their god's divine decree, of course. Are we worse than that? I'd say no.



> Do you believe there is such a thing as sin?


As defined as some violation of a supernatural being's law? No.



> Do you believe in any superior being which also includes being morally superior?


No.



> Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?


Fallen from what? Christ this stuff is weird. The only people I would need forgiveness from are the ones I've harmed in some way.



> Do you believe that a person has an eternal soul?


No. 



> Do you believe that after death that a person can live in a life that is better than this life?


No.



> Do you believe that mankind has all the answers to life and death?


Again, weird question. I guess obviously not since we still die.


And for what it's worth, I was a Christian for the first 25 years or so of my life. I get how it works.


----------



## Mr Blunt

Hawkeye
You DO NOT believe in:

Sin
A superior being
Mankind has an eternal soul
life after death



> *Quote of Hawkeye
> What my "main beliefs" are is incredibly vague.*


*You are the person that said vague beliefs are meaningless. Your own judgments are coming back to bite you!*

You told us what you do not believe in and that your beliefs are vague. You never did tell us what you DO believe in.
You did tell us what your non-spiritual beliefs are in a reprint of your words below. I don’t know if you are trying to be funny or be cute but your beliefs have nothing to do with my questions that you solicited or relationships and spirituality. Makes me wonder why you post on this Spirituality and Relationship forum.

*



Quote of Hawkeye
I believe Dodge makes the best trucks. I believe Old Milwaukee is an underrated beer. I believe it's really cold outside right now.

Click to expand...

*


> Do you believe that you have fallen morally and need someone other than yourself to get forgiveness?
> 
> Quote of Hawkeye
> Fallen from what? *Christ this stuff is weird*.
> And for what it's worth, I was a Christian for the first 25 years or so of my life. I get how it works.


My question is not weird stuff at all. You tell us that you have been a Christian for 25 years and know how it works.  Then you know exactly what I am talking about and your attempt to judge my question as weird stuff tells me a lot about you.

You have given nothing but a bunch of no answers and nothing about spiritual beliefs. * In addition, you seem to be compelled to make a lot of negative judgments and attempt to mock inquiries about the Christian faith.*

*Your attempt at mocking Christianity is obvious. I have no interest in discussing spirituality with you so stop responding to me. Your game is up.*


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Again, your terms are wrong. Agnosticism/gnosticism is about knowledge. Theism/Atheism is about belief. Everybody is one of each. I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't KNOW there is no god, but I don't believe in one. I'd venture a guess that most atheists are agnostic atheists. Hell, I'd venture most religious folks are agnostic theists if they'd be honest with themselves.
> 
> If your only proof is god is "creation", you really have no proof. I can claim anything "created" it all and have just as much proof as you.


Right or wrong terms.....well I am not really interested in splitting hairs over semantics. I think I used the words as they are commonly used in modern English. I think the concepts of knowledge and belief are related. So you are saying you cannot disprove God, but you haven't found a notion of God that leads you to belief, I can respect that. 

Creation....well I see evidence of God in things, you don't, that's ok. No proof? Well I started by talking about faith taking over when proof leaves off. You can indeed claim something else created the universe, or nothing did. Anyone reading this can look at all we have and ask whether this amazingness "just happened".


----------



## hawkeye

Mr Blunt said:


> Hawkeye
> You DO NOT believe in:
> 
> Sin
> A superior being
> Mankind has an eternal soul
> life after death
> 
> 
> *You are the person that said vague beliefs are meaningless. Your own judgments are coming back to bite you!*
> 
> You told us what you do not believe in and that your beliefs are vague. You never did tell us what you DO believe in.
> You did tell us what your non-spiritual beliefs are in a reprint of your words below. I don’t know if you are trying to be funny or be cute but your beliefs have nothing to do with my questions that you solicited or relationships and spirituality. Makes me wonder why you post on this Spirituality and Relationship forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My question is not weird stuff at all. You tell us that you have been a Christian for 25 years and know how it works.  Then you know exactly what I am talking about and your attempt to judge my question as weird stuff tells me a lot about you.
> 
> You have given nothing but a bunch of no answers and nothing about spiritual beliefs. * In addition, you seem to be compelled to make a lot of negative judgments and attempt to mock inquiries about the Christian faith.*
> 
> *Your attempt at mocking Christianity is obvious. I have no interest in discussing spirituality with you so stop responding to me. Your game is up.*


I don't understand what you're so wound up about. I answered ever single question you asked truthfully.

Believe it or not, NO is a valid answer. And not only that, I don't have any spiritual beliefs. What am I supposed to tell you about beliefs I don't possess?

EDIT: Also, I appreciate your thinly-veiled threat of hell. Classic Christian move. Judge not, and stuff.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> Right or wrong terms.....well I am not really interested in splitting hairs over semantics. I think I used the words as they are commonly used in modern English. I think the concepts of knowledge and belief are related. So you are saying you cannot disprove God, but you haven't found a notion of God that leads you to belief, I can respect that.
> 
> Creation....well I see evidence of God in things, you don't, that's ok. No proof? Well I started by talking about faith taking over when proof leaves off. You can indeed claim something else created the universe, or nothing did. Anyone reading this can look at all we have and ask whether this amazingness "just happened".


It's not splitting hairs. Words have meanings for a reason. Yes, everybody uses them wrong, but I think it's worth trying to explain the correct usage because I think it's a very important distinction. 

Yes, belief and knowledge are related. But they are not the same. I belief the sun won't blow up in my life time. I do not KNOW that. Those are two entirely different statements, not two sides of the same coin.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> It's not splitting hairs. Words have meanings for a reason. Yes, everybody uses them wrong, but I think it's worth trying to explain the correct usage because I think it's a very important distinction.
> 
> Yes, belief and knowledge are related. But they are not the same. I belief the sun won't blow up in my life time. I do not KNOW that. Those are two entirely different statements, not two sides of the same coin.


"Everybody uses them wrong". "Wrongly"sir. Poor grammar in such a phrase weakens your case. 

Common usage is what establishes the meaning of words in my view. Actually I could have referred to the OED and argued that it supports my usage (look it up) but I am not interested in that. If you are, it's been nice chatting. You seemed to concede implicitly that my usage was that which most people understand, so I will go with that.

We understand (I hope) what each other mean by the words and by common usage I view your position as agnosticism. We are not that far apart.

Both of us, I think, acknowledge that there is not sufficient proof to know for sure that God does or does not exist. We both choose to back our belief while recognising what I called the leap of faith involved. (What you called the agnostic aspect of our respective positions).

Look more closely at creation, my friend. Look at the meticulous work of the creator.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> "Everybody uses them wrong". "Wrongly"sir. Poor grammar in such a phrase weakens your case.
> 
> Common usage is what establishes the meaning of words in my view. Actually I could have referred to the OED and argued that it supports my usage (look it up) but I am not interested in that. If you are, it's been nice chatting. You seemed to concede implicitly that my usage was that which most people understand, so I will go with that.
> 
> We understand (I hope) what each other mean by the words and by common usage I view your position as agnosticism. We are not that far apart.
> 
> Both of us, I think, acknowledge that there is not sufficient proof to know for sure that God does or does not exist. We both choose to back our belief while recognising what I called the leap of faith involved. (What you called the agnostic aspect of our respective positions).
> 
> Look more closely at creation, my friend. Look at the meticulous work of the creator.


Well, moving on to the work of this creator then....what about it? Was it he who designed us to breath and eat through the same pipe? What of all the humans who existed before the time of bible? What about them? 

Also, for fun, I'll agree for the sake of argument that the "creation" does in fact prove a god exists. Great. Now what? You're still a million miles away from being able to know anything about it, whether it has any preferences, likes or dislikes, it's attitude, it's attributes....anything. 

Actually, just watch this video, only 4 minutes of it...the first two and then 8:00 until the end. Hitchens does a better job of attacking these points than I do. Christopher Hitchens vs God (god loses by the way) - YouTube


----------



## Wazza

At work, will watch video later. Have seen some Hitchens.....at least he's not as bad as that arrogant windbag Dawkins.

Not sure about the significance of humans who existed before the bible. Nor why having one throat is so amazingly bad. Please explain?

You are right...conceding the existence of a God doesn't necessarily prove it is the Christian God. So play along a bit further. If you concluded there was a God and you should know about that God, how would you start?


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> At work, will watch video later. Have seen some Hitchens.....at least he's not as bad as that arrogant windbag Dawkins.


That's surprising. I always thought Hitchens was far more arrogant, although I loved him for it.



> Not sure about the significance of humans who existed before the bible. Nor why having one throat is so amazingly bad. Please explain?


Just that it's crappy design.



> You are right...conceding the existence of a God doesn't necessarily prove it is the Christian God. So play along a bit further. If you concluded there was a God and you should know about that God, how would you start?


Scientific method and look for evidence.


----------



## Wazza

One throat.....how amazing is the intricacy of the machinery that makes it work? What sort of "engineering" implications would arise from a different design? I need to be convinced there is something better out there. I don't think it's crappy. I think it's amazing.

Scientific method can't solve every problem. There is a place for other types of reasoning. You are like a person who decides the only tool in his kit will be wrenches, then finds he cannot cut wood or drive screws. We both agree that we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore this is a question that, today, we cannot answer via scientific method.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> One throat.....how amazing is the intricacy of the machinery that makes it work? What sort of "engineering" implications would arise from a different design? I need to be convinced there is something better out there. I don't think it's crappy. I think it's amazing.


A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.



> Scientific method can't solve every problem. There is a place for other types of reasoning. You are like a person who decides the only tool in his kit will be wrenches, then finds he cannot cut wood or drive screws. We both agree that we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore this is a question that, today, we cannot answer via scientific method.


How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.


----------



## Aspydad

hawkeye said:


> A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.
> 
> *You make a bold statement here. I assume you have done a design evaluation. Or, are you just making a comment to try and make fun of those who believe in Jesus? *
> 
> How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.


*So how were we created? There is only two methods to choose from 1) we evolved or we were created via luck and chance or 2) some force designed and created this world we live in including all Life.

If you choose number #1, I will tell you that it can be proven that evolution does not hold water at all. If one understands the physical laws of the universe, it is impossible to have happened*

*Or, more simply, you can examine in detail all living systems on earth - look at the brilliance of the design and how all life is intermingled and know that life on earth was created by a brilliant creator. Even a child can see this - and has no problem in believing in God.*

*I have read your posts - you are either just bored and want to make fun of those who believe that there is a God who created us - I mean the one that left evidence of His existence as found in the Christian Bible (which is the inspired word of this God) - or you are just desperate to find someone who can physically prove where God is so you can physically say hello.

Obviously if the God I just referred to exists, and we are in the state that we are in because it is His will, you really don't expect someone here to be able to physically show you God do you??*


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> A perfect god couldn't come up with one tube for food and one for air? C'mon. It's an awful design.
> 
> 
> 
> How else would you propose to find an answer? As far as I'm concerned the scientific method is the single best method we have for discovering how things work. It's the single best tool in the toolbox. You're like a person who decides that instead of saw, you're going to pray for the wood to cut itself.


Why is two tubes not over engineering? How would the design of the neck change to accommodate two tubes? What else would have to change? Sounds to me like you are a fan of engineering bloat.

Your single best method is an incredibly useful method, but it can't answer this question. I am not praying, I am looking at other tools. You are the one insisting there can only be one. There are many, many problems the scientific method cannot solve.


----------



## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> So how were we created? There is only two methods to choose from 1) we evolved or we were created via luck and chance or 2) some force designed and created this world we live in including all Life.


Abiogensis followed by evolution. 



> If you choose number #1, I will tell you that it can be proven that evolution does not hold water at all. If one understands the physical laws of the universe, it is impossible to have happened


If you can disprove evolution, please do so and collect your Nobel Prize. You'd be one of the most famous people of all time. Good luck!



> Or, more simply, you can examine in detail all living systems on earth - look at the brilliance of the design and how all life is intermingled and know that life on earth was created by a brilliant creator. Even a child can see this - and has no problem in believing in God.


Yes, yes, the tired old "just look at the trees" defense. Here's the thing, YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I could literally say Elvis created it all and have exactly the same amount of PROOF as you do.



> I have read your posts - you are either just bored and want to make fun of those who believe that there is a God who created us - I mean the one that left evidence of His existence as found in the Christian Bible (which is the inspired word of this God) - or you are just desperate to find someone who can physically prove where God is so you can physically say hello.


God physically revealed himself before, why can't he do so to us now? If he wants us to know and love him, he should do a better job of showing up every now and then.



> Obviously if the God I just referred to exists, and we are in the state that we are in because it is His will, you really don't expect someone here to be able to physically show you God do you??


Physically show me god? Meh, not really. Maybe just some evidence besides "just look at stuff around you" and appeals to the bible.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Abiogensis followed by evolution.
> 
> 
> 
> If you can disprove evolution, please do so and collect your Nobel Prize. You'd be one of the most famous people of all time. Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, yes, the tired old "just look at the trees" defense. Here's the thing, YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I could literally say Elvis created it all and have exactly the same amount of PROOF as you do.
> 
> 
> 
> God physically revealed himself before, why can't he do so to us now? If he wants us to know and love him, he should do a better job of showing up every now and then.
> 
> 
> 
> Physically show me god? Meh, not really. Maybe just some evidence besides "just look at stuff around you" and appeals to the bible.


Perhaps Elvis is God  this is why it is important to separate whether God exists from who God is.

And I am I unaware of any proof for a biogenesis. Statement of faith?


----------



## Aspydad

hawkeye said:


> Abiogensis followed by evolution.
> 
> *You mean to tell me that you understand Abiogenesis? Is this another THEORY or is this accepted throughout the scientific community as fact??*
> 
> If you can disprove evolution, please do so and collect your Nobel Prize. You'd be one of the most famous people of all time. Good luck!
> 
> 
> *Evolution is a Theory that has NEVER - EVER been proven. It is spearheaded by Athiests by definition who get PAID to research and / or Teach it.
> 
> How many years have they been trying to prove it?? Hell, even a child given that information could determine that Evolotion is the biggest lie of all time!*
> 
> Yes, yes, the tired old "just look at the trees" defense. Here's the thing, YOU HAVE NO PROOF. I could literally say Elvis created it all and have exactly the same amount of PROOF as you do.
> 
> *Elvis Who??*
> 
> 
> God physically revealed himself before, why can't he do so to us now? If he wants us to know and love him, he should do a better job of showing up every now and then.
> 
> *Again, you’re questioning the creator of the universe?? You are upset with him?? I can relate – but, it is futile. *
> Physically show me god? Meh, not really. Maybe just some evidence besides "just look at stuff around you" and appeals to the bible.


_*First you must accept that God exists and that he loves you. Then, you can see evidence of him. If you have been blinded to Him, then you cannot see His work by definition.*_


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> Perhaps Elvis is God  this is why it is important to separate whether God exists from who God is.
> 
> And I am I unaware of any proof for a biogenesis. Statement of faith?


I figured I should have more thoroughly explained that. Evolution - fact, with tons of evidence. Abiogensis - not fact, as far as I know, frankly I don't know were the science is on this so I guess my official stance would be "i don't know".


----------



## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> You mean to tell me that you understand Abiogenesis? Is this another THEORY or is this accepted throughout the scientific community as fact??


Answered above. There are hypotheses, but no definitive answer as far as I know. Of course, the difference here between me and you is that I'm willing to admit I don't know, whereas you insert a god and claim knowledge.



> Evolution is a Theory that has NEVER - EVER been proven. It is spearheaded by Athiests by definition who get PAID to research and / or Teach it.
> 
> How many years have they been trying to prove it?? Hell, even a child given that information could determine that Evolotion is the biggest lie of all time!


You're so far removed from mainstream science here that I don't even know where to begin. If you're one of those people who thinks everything is a big conspiracy then there's no point in even discussing this.



> Elvis Who??


The Almighty Creator of the Universe. Prove me wrong.



> Again, you’re questioning the creator of the universe?? You are upset with him?? I can relate – but, it is futile.


I'm not upset with him at all. I don't believe he exists. I'm as mad at him as I am at Zeus or Thor. 

But seriously, why doesn't he just reveal himself to us? Show up in the sky, make it clear he's god, and that way we at least all know. He's revealed himself to people before, right? Does he not want me to love and serve him and accept him into my heart?



> First you must accept that God exists and that he loves you. Then, you can see evidence of him. If you have been blinded to Him, then you cannot see His work by definition.


I was a Christian for 25 years. What was I doing wrong that whole time? When I first started doubting I spent many nights pleading with him to change my heart. Pleading. I wanted nothing more than to be able to believe. I got silence. What did I do wrong?


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> I was a Christian for 25 years. What was I doing wrong that whole time? When I first started doubting I spent many nights pleading with him to change my heart. Pleading. I wanted nothing more than to be able to believe. I got silence. What did I do wrong?


I faced crises of faith, with many similar questions to what you asked. I found a deeper understanding of my faith, admittedly with some aspects that the mainstream church would regard as heresy. Who cares. Gotta be true to oneself.

I am not dissing the mainstream church here. I am a regular church goer, but not afraid to think critically. "When I was a child I thought as a child.."

You did nothing wrong in your crisis of faith, and once you got into the meat of our discussions I found your opinions reasoned and and the discussion interesting. Fwiw. 

I am in an engineering related field. I was talking to a close friend who is medical. I mentioned your comment about the one throat to them. They just laughed and came out with a long description of how it all works, and how amazing it is. It is easy to take the amazing complexity of the human body for granted when we live with it every day.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> I faced crises of faith, with many similar questions to what you asked. I found a deeper understanding of my faith, admittedly with some aspects that the mainstream church would regard as heresy. Who cares. Gotta be true to oneself.
> 
> I am not dissing the mainstream church here. I am a regular church goer, but not afraid to think critically. "When I was a child I thought as a child.."
> 
> You did nothing wrong in your crisis of faith, and once you got into the meat of our discussions I found your opinions reasoned and and the discussion interesting. Fwiw.
> 
> I am in an engineering related field. I was talking to a close friend who is medical. I mentioned your comment about the one throat to them. They just laughed and came out with a long description of how it all works, and how amazing it is. It is easy to take the amazing complexity of the human body for granted when we live with it every day.


I enjoyed it all as well. Sorry if I came off like an *******. 

I still think sharing a tube for breathing and eating is a terrible design.


----------



## Aspydad

Orihinally posted by *hawkey*
But seriously, why doesn't he just reveal himself to us? Show up in the sky, make it clear he's god, and that way we at least all know. He's revealed himself to people before, right? Does he not want me to love and serve him and accept him into my heart?

_If you asked Jesus into your heart earler in life - then he will never leave - even if you deny him._


I was a Christian for 25 years. What was I doing wrong that whole time? When I first started doubting I spent many nights pleading with him to change my heart. Pleading. I wanted nothing more than to be able to believe. I got silence. What did I do wrong?[/QUOTE]


There is nothing wrong with what you are going through. I think everyone eventually has this crisis of faith (as Waza said) sooner or later. Heck, I read that Mother Theresa had crisis of faith for much of her life – but, she would not stop her mission – she would just push through it. 

Here is an excerpt of what she was told by a man named Neuner - he gave her three pieces of counsel – first, there was no human cure for what she had (no feeling of Gods presence), so she shouldn’t feel personally guilty about it; second, feeling Jesus is not the only evidence of His presence, and the fact that she longed for God is a “sure sign” of His “hidden presence” in her life; and last, the feeling of absence was part of the “spiritual side” of her work for Jesus.

Mother Teresa responded to Neuner in 1961: “I can’t express in words – the gratitude I owe you for your kindness to me – for the first time in ….years – I have come to love the darkness – for I believe now that it is part of a very, very small part of Jesus’ darkness & pain on earth.”

She later wrote to Neuner, “I accept not in my feelings – but with my will, the Will of God – I accept his will,” according to TIME.

I am similar to WAZA with regards to Church. For me, I tried for years to find the perfect Church / denomination and have discovered that this does not exist. There was always something that bothered me – very long list that I won’t go into. Probably went a year one time where we never set foot in a Church because of this. But, I discovered that I missed hearing the Gospel preached, missed the fellowship, and missed the worship. I tried to just study the Bible on my own, but it just was not the same. So, we started visiting many Churches until we found the one where we felt most comfortable – for me, the Pastor had to be a great communicator – really good at explaining the Gospel, I wanted good music that was not boring, and a good Children’s programs. We did find a good Church – but, I will say, I do not agree with some of what the pastor teaches – I will take what he says in – but, if I don’t agree then so be it – I will lean my own interpretations in the end. I have come to except, Churches are comprised of leadership personnel that sin and struggle, just like me and that the other members are sinners and struggle just like me – as long as I know this, then who am I to judge these people?


PS: About the double throat design, I just don't see your point here - since we have one mouth that is dual or even triple purpose and connects to the "one tube" - unless you have a double throat (which to me would have serious design complications as well) you can't have the two tubes. To me, simple dual purpose single tube is the answer. Going to have to go with WAZA on this one.


----------



## Wazza

Two throats would mean relocating so things don't go through the neck, smaller tubes, collapsible tubes, or bigger neck, which might then be less flexible. It might complicate redundancy between mouth and nostrils when breathing. 

Some of these variations are clearly possible....consider the dolphin. Therefore an evolutionist might ponder why land mammals are configured differently from water mammals. Does it imply that natural selection determined the single throat as the superior design?


----------



## Aspydad

Wazza said:


> Two throats would mean relocating so things don't go through the neck, smaller tubes, collapsible tubes, or bigger neck, which might then be less flexible. It might complicate redundancy between mouth and nostrils when breathing.
> 
> Some of these variations are clearly possible....consider the dolphin. Therefore an evolutionist might ponder why land mammals are configured differently from water mammals. Does it imply that natural selection determined the single throat as the superior design?


Design requirements for mammals that go under water differ from that of land mammals. The breathing tube must be closed while underwater while at the same time the mammal must be able to use its mouth to feed underwater. Actually I don't think the designer had a choice here for the underwater mammals. Intersting that these water mammals create sound through their blow holes and can communicate. I give the designer an A+ on this design feature.


----------



## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> _If you asked Jesus into your heart earler in life - then he will never leave - even if you deny him._


Once saved, always saved. Suwheeeeeet. I'm in either way.



> PS: About the double throat design, I just don't see your point here - since we have one mouth that is dual or even triple purpose and connects to the "one tube" - unless you have a double throat (which to me would have serious design complications as well) you can't have the two tubes. To me, simple dual purpose single tube is the answer. Going to have to go with WAZA on this one.


While I would rather not turn this into a discussion about throats, you guys love the design because you have to. It HAS to be the best design, because it's what god came up with. You don't really have wiggle room. You can't admit that some other design that didn't involve us eating and breathing through the same tube would probably be better. I don't see how a perfect god couldn't come up with a solution to this. Like he made it and was thought "hmm, that's kind of a crappy deal but it's just the best I can think of."


----------



## norajane

Aspydad said:


> PS: About the double throat design, I just don't see your point here - since we have one mouth that is dual or even triple purpose and connects to the "one tube" - unless you have a double throat (which to me would have serious design complications as well) you can't have the two tubes. To me, simple dual purpose single tube is the answer. Going to have to go with WAZA on this one.


Dual purpose tube is what allows people to choke to death while eating.

What I want to know is what was the purpose of the appendix?!


----------



## Aspydad

hawkeye said:


> Once saved, always saved. Suwheeeeeet. I'm in either way.
> 
> Yes. However, that does not mean your life on earth will be what God wanted or that you will be given your reward in Heaven. I am not sure what the reward is - but, given the fact that we will be in Heaven forever, I am one who would like to shoot for the reward - but that’s just me. I mean we are only here maybe 70-80-90-100 years on earth if we are blessed - just a very minute period of time when compared to eternity.
> 
> While I would rather not turn this into a discussion about throats, you guys love the design because you have to. It HAS to be the best design, because it's what god came up with. You don't really have wiggle room. You can't admit that some other design that didn't involve us eating and breathing through the same tube would probably be better. I don't see how a perfect god couldn't come up with a solution to this. Like he made it and was thought "hmm, that's kind of a crappy deal but it's just the best I can think of."


So does it really matter about the optimal design anyway? If this is the design that the creator wanted, who are we to judge? We can have an opinion, but that opinion really doesn’t matter now does it? Unless you think you are a God of course, then in your own mind maybe it matters. You know what that's called? Yes, that's called PRIDE.


----------



## Aspydad

norajane said:


> Dual purpose tube is what allows people to choke to death while eating.
> 
> That's not a design flaw, that's called User Error.
> 
> What I want to know is what was the purpose of the appendix?!


Not a Doctor so I have no idea.


----------



## norajane

Aspydad said:


> Not a Doctor so I have no idea.


It has exactly zero purpose. None that they've ever found, and no impact if it is removed. But it can kill you if it bursts.


----------



## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> So does it really matter about the optimal design anyway? If this is the design that the creator wanted, who are we to judge? We can have an opinion, but that opinion really doesn’t matter now does it? Unless you think you are a God of course, then in your own mind maybe it matters. You know what that's called? Yes, that's called PRIDE.


It matters because of all the christians who talk about how their god so perfectly and intricately designed every thing, right down to the atoms. The throat just happens to be one easy area to point to and say "yeah, this could be a whole helluva lot better." The appendix is another issue. There are many other ones. 

Like I said earlier, you guys are stuck in a position where you HAVE to justify and rationalize it. You can't admit that anything is a crappy design. It HAS to be perfect. You're forced to abandon your thinking in order to make it all fit.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> It matters because of all the christians who talk about how their god so perfectly and intricately designed every thing, right down to the atoms. The throat just happens to be one easy area to point to and say "yeah, this could be a whole helluva lot better." The appendix is another issue. There are many other ones.
> 
> Like I said earlier, you guys are stuck in a position where you HAVE to justify and rationalize it. You can't admit that anything is a crappy design. It HAS to be perfect. You're forced to abandon your thinking in order to make it all fit.


No. 

I am in a position where I design things and I know that any design is a trade off. You change something in the design, it introduces improvements and weaknesses. 

I also know that when designers get together they might disagree on the tradeoffs. 

Obvious example, which is better designed, a Porsche or a Toyota? Depends what your design goals were.

So who as the better breathing apparatus, a human or a fish? Depends what your design goals were. 

Anyway, done to death I think. If you believe it's so bad, you have that right.


----------



## Aspydad

norajane said:


> It has exactly zero purpose. None that they've ever found, and no impact if it is removed. But it can kill you if it bursts.


Oh wait, how about medical science does not have a complete understanding of the human body. I mean if they did, they could cure any disease right? Hmmm, do you suppose it has not been high priority to understand this?

Oh wait, I just Googled this and found that the University of Duke Medical School found that YES there is a function of the Appendix.

I guess Darwin didn't have access to such a facility back in his day.


----------



## norajane

Aspydad said:


> Oh wait, how about medical science does not have a complete understanding of the human body. I mean if they did, they could cure any disease right? Hmmm, do you suppose it has not been high priority to understand this?
> 
> Oh wait, I just Googled this and found that the University of Duke Medical School found that YES there is a function of the Appendix.
> 
> I guess Darwin didn't have access to such a facility back in his day.


Well, that's the difference between medical science and creationism. One does not purport to have all the answers, while the other does: God did it!


----------



## Aspydad

norajane said:


> Well, that's the difference between medical science and creationism. One does not purport to have all the answers, while the other does: God did it!


People (Humans) do not have the mental capacity to understand all things. God / Jesus does have the capacity to understand all things. Jesus is above us - and thus, every knee shall bow before him at his/her given time.

Creationism is the only explanation for our existence. We humans do have the capacity to conclude this. Scientists have been trying to prove the THEORY of evolution for a Long - Long -Time. No proof. Engineers have been able to prove through the LAWs of Thermodynamics that our existence is impossible without an outside force to put everything in the right place in order for this Universe to exist as it does today and there can be-_ *No Life Without This Outside Force*._Scientists will argue this forever - they always change the subject and never address how the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was broken for the Universe to have a beginning. They will however come up with more THEORIES - but again - NO PROOF!! EVER!!!

In order for a scientist to concede this - he would have to declare that evolution is impossible and therefore would be ostracized by the entire scientific community that derives money from employers to study and teach the principles of the THEORY. And this money - is what keeps the biggest LIE to Ever Be Placed in the Scientific Community and Taught to our Children (as it a fact by the way) Alive Today. If this ever went to Court - a Judge would throw this Evolution Theory out on its ARS.


----------



## hawkeye

Aspydad said:


> People (Humans) do not have the mental capacity to understand all things. God / Jesus does have the capacity to understand all things. Jesus is above us - and thus, every knee shall bow before him at his/her given time.


God, it's going to be hard for me to not sound like an ass here, but.....you simply have no understanding for how science works. None. That screed is full of so much nonsense I don't even know where to start. I guess let's start wading through this....



> Creationism is the only explanation for our existence.


No. No it's not. It's a hypothesis. A hypothesis with not a single shred of positive evidence to support it. Religious folks just look at things and "god dun it" and then stop thinking.



> We humans do have the capacity to conclude this.


Based on what evidence?



> Scientists have been trying to prove the THEORY of evolution for a Long - Long -Time. No proof.


You don't understand the difference between the colloquial use of the word "theory" and the scientific use of the word. Huge difference. Also, no proof? Where, exactly, did the fossil record come from? We have the bones. We can look at them and date them and watch evolution over time. How do you just explain that all away? 



> Engineers have been able to prove through the LAWs of Thermodynamics that our existence is impossible without an outside force to put everything in the right place in order for this universe to exist as it does today and there can be-_ *No Life Without This Outside Force*._Scientists will argue this forever - they always change the subject and never address how the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was broken for the universe to have a beginning. They will however come up with more THEORIES - but again - NO PROOF!! EVER!!!


Now you're not talking about evolution anymore. Now you're venturing into the big bang. Does science have every answer for this? No. I'll admit it. And I'm free to do so because my worldview doesn't force me to make up answers like your's does. If you can prove your god did it, then prove it. Otherwise you have nothing more than a wild ass guess that you can't even start trying to prove.



> In order for a scientist to concede this - he would have to declare that evolution is impossible and therefore would be ostracized by the entire scientific community that derives money from employers to study and teach the principles of the THEORY. And this money - is what keeps the biggest LIE to Ever Be Placed in the Scientific Community and Taught to our Children (as it a fact by the way) Alive Today. If this ever went to Court - a Judge would throw this Evolution Theory out on its ARS.


Oh great, typical conspiracy theory bull****. I have no idea how you people have convinced yourselves that people getting paid means they can't be trusted...but only when it comes to evolution and climate change. You get cancer, you go to an oncologist. Guess what, HE GETS PAID TOO. Is cancer a conspiracy?


----------



## Aspydad

Here are the rules for a debate:

There are only TWO intellectually honest debate tactics;

1. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

However ,
There are many intellectually dishonest debate tactics.
Here's a few;

1] Name calling [ ad hominem ]
2]Changing the subject
3]Questioning the motives of the opponent
4]False premise
5]Hearsay
6]Cult of personality
7]Playing on widely held fantasies or fears
8]Accusation of taking a quote out of context
9]Rejecting facts or logic as opinion / stating an opinion as fact.
10]Insinuation
11]Assertion of non-existent ‘rights.'
12]Mockery
13]Dismissing your failure to abandon your position because you “just don’t get it.”



hawkeye said:


> God, it's going to be hard for me to not sound like an ass here, but.....you simply have no understanding for how science works. None. That screed is full of so much nonsense I don't even know where to start. I guess let's start wading through this....
> 
> *This paragraph shouts that you really don't want to address what was stated - Name Calling - questioning the opponents intelligence, experience to set the stage. I see this allot from you by the way.*
> 
> No. No it's not. It's a hypothesis. A hypothesis with not a single shred of positive evidence to support it. Religious folks just look at things and "god dun it" and then stop thinking.
> 
> *You just tried to change the subject here...*
> 
> *I stated that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics has been broken just for the Universe to exist - I did not talk about the Big Bang - although, scientists will point to this Theory when trying to expalin where we came from. Expalin to me how the Law was broken if an outside - unexplainable force did not exist. By the way - no beggining of Universe, No Evolution*
> 
> Based on what evidence? *See above - 2nd Law Broken*.
> 
> You don't understand the difference between the colloquial use of the word "theory" and the scientific use of the word. Huge difference. Also, no proof? Where, exactly, did the fossil record come from? We have the bones. We can look at them and date them and watch evolution over time. How do you just explain that all away?
> 
> *No Difference - no your trying to use a play on words. Evolution is a Theory - period - end of discussion. Tell me who has ever proven the Theory.
> 
> I did not even talk about falicies of the Theory - now your bringing in other topics and trying to present them as proof that Evolution is Fact. Is there some reason you cannot take what I stated and tell me what was unfactual about what I said? Of course with something to back it up!!
> 
> I will apease you and talk about carbon dating and bones.
> 
> Fossel Record dates derived from Carbon Dating.
> 
> Carbin dating is not an exact science - and by the way it is immposible to prove that any carbon dating tecnique is accurate!! We can have an entire debate just about this one side subject that you broght up - Carbon Dating proves nothing by the way about Evolution.
> 
> To Date: Never Ever has there been proof that we evolved from anther type of animal (Monkey) - Never a Link. Hell, you cannot even prove that an old skelltin ever produced offspring!! So what does bones have to do with anything??*
> 
> Now you're not talking about evolution anymore. Now you're venturing into the big bang. Does science have every answer for this? No. I'll admit it. And I'm free to do so because my worldview doesn't force me to make up answers like your's does. If you can prove your god did it, then prove it. Otherwise you have nothing more than a wild ass guess that you can't even start trying to prove.
> 
> *Now your puttingwords in my mouth - I said an outside force - not God. Again, we can have an entire debate about this. But, I will tell you this - the conclusion will be that one only can claim God as this outside force as a result of FAITH.*
> 
> Oh great, typical conspiracy theory bull****. I have no idea how you people have convinced yourselves that people getting paid means they can't be trusted...but only when it comes to evolution and climate change. You get cancer, you go to an oncologist. Guess what, HE GETS PAID TOO. Is cancer a conspiracy?


*Now you questioning Motives of Your Opponent!!

Really, do I need to address this?? 

I have every right to judge - my judgement is - yes, money and a culture of brainwashing (with lies - assumptions as fact) plays a key role in the propogation of this False Theory. If you think it does not - tell me why.

Climate Control - Global Warming? Do you really want to go there??  Again, you like to go off topic.*


----------



## hawkeye

I'm not even going to bother. You don't understand, or purposely misinterpret, basic scientific terms. You simply do not understand how science works. And that's not an attack or an ad hominem, btw. It's the truth. I don't even know how to address this anymore. Plus I'm sick of having to reformat everything when I reply to you.


----------



## Wazza

norajane said:


> Well, that's the difference between medical science and creationism. One does not purport to have all the answers, while the other does: God did it!


Ok, that is an important point, and what you say is absolutely correct when applied to fundamentalists.

I am not a creationist. I agree that the fossil records seem to support some notion of evolution, and I am not troubled by gaps in the record, areas where scientists got it wrong and so on. To me creationists who nitpick are refusing to see the big picture. 

I do understand that the evidence for evolution rests in part on things we see as reasonable, but don't know. So for example, we assume that one layer of sediment and fossils gets laid down on top of another, so those below were older. We assume the rate of sedimentation is predictable, therefore we can infer age to an extent from it. And so on.

To me these sort of working assumptions are entirely reasonable, but you need to keep in mind they may be wrong. They are just the best we have to go on. 

Perhaps when I talk about faith, what I am really doing is a form of assumption. Perhaps the scientific method is less pure than Hawkeye may admit.

The other thing is, sometimes we have scientific oddities that serve no useful purpose, and then later they suddenly take on huge significance. Euckid's parallel postulate is an example that made sense for planar geometry as needed by the Greeks, but varying it enables global navigation. Euclid was honest enough to call it a postulate, not an axiom. Another example is the square root of -1. A cute intellectual game with no pracital use when first defined, it became an important design tool in the twentieth century. Point being, the fact that I don't know everything now, the fact that there are gaps in and limits to, my knowledge, does not make me wrong. The fact that I don't know what an appendix is for does not invalidate the miracle of God's creation, any more than Nebraska Man invalidates the theory of evolution. Both are valid examples to consider, but we need to be careful not to make too much of them.

A side observation...there are rabid fundamentalist Christians out there, but I think there are also rabid fundamentalist atheists too. (Yes I am looking at you Mr D!)


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Quote of Curious Guy---OP
> 
> Me, *I believe God wants *everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?



*Your question establishes that you are asking us to comment on your BELIEF.* I have already commented about the homosexual issue so I am going to address a different topic that you alluded to.

You can believe that God approves things based upon if they love something and it makes them happy but I think that criteria can be faulty. I can fall in love with your girlfriend and it would make me happy to take her on a 10 day cruise vacation. Would God approve that? Would you approve of that? If no then why not? I love her and your girlfriend would make me happy.


I am not telling you that you have to believe like me but for me *I have to have some unique tested guide, something that has been tested and is not just someone's opinion or their own thinking.* I do not go for the method of everyone make up their own standards to fit their thinking. One of the reasons that I posted that information about the Bible was to show that the Bible is a standard that has been tested for over 1500 years by people a lot smarter than you and I and everyone one else on this thread. Some people attack the Bible by trying to put the debate into a “Prove it” debate. *Once they get you into the “prove it” debate they start telling you all their great knowledge in science while they hurl “Prove it” questions at faith.* They seem like eternal skeptics to me. *They offer no hope or cmpfort for the people that have lost loved ones to death*. They want to get into the scientific evidence position but cannot even use their scientific evidence to explain so many important questions.

The Bible IS NOT a scientific text books it is a book that has faith/belief as one of its main topics. Although the modern scientific field of archeology has produced evidence that the Bible is accurate in some of its writing of 2000 years ago, *the topic discussion of spirituality and faith should not be suckered into a debate about science where the science debaters try to discredit the bible with their own opinions and knowledge of science*. Science is very valuable in some areas but not dominate when it omes to faith.

So in conclusion I world say that if you are going to ask a question about belief then you may want to consider the Bible more than an individual’s opinions based on their own thinking or their knowledge of science. *Science is not the foundation of faith*. Faith has been around and very strong for thousands of years and even when there was very little science.


----------



## Machiavelli

Runs like Dog said:


> Strictly speaking, Torah does not comment at all on Lesbianism.


Bingo.


----------



## Starstarfish

> So how were we created? There is only two methods to choose from 1) we evolved or we were created via luck and chance or 2) some force designed and created this world we live in including all Life.


Actually, there's a third method, you could believe both. 

I mean, maybe you watched Prometheus and decided that's your idea of the creation story. Divine being (or weird alien) injects "life" onto Earth, and over time we just happened to be one of the things that evolved indeed, via luck and chance. 

Maybe we were created by mice to help run a giant mathematical equation like The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy tells us.



> Bible is a standard that has been tested for over 1500 years by people a lot smarter than you and I


People so smart they used to believe bathing left you to the influence of bad spirits? Who thought that drilling holes into your head was a way to release demons? 

And tested in what manner? To my knowledge, no one has come back from the dead and left a non-religious historical record of what happened in order to provide "the final answer." So - what exactly has been tested? 



> They offer no hope or [sic] comfort for the people that have lost loved ones to death.


And that's ultimately the main purpose of religion, and always has been, to attempt to answer questions that humanity doesn't know the answer to. To attempt to discern answers for questions beyond what we can see, hear, or understand. 

The only thing that has changed is what we understand (*gasp* with science!) and thus our old religions have seemed silly in coordination with what we know. 



> Science is very valuable in some areas but not dominate when it [sic] comes to faith.


Faith is very valuable in some areas but not to dominate when it comes to science. Muslims seem to have figured that to a degree that Christians are still wrangling with. Though, I guess we did agree to stop burning people at the stake because they don't believe the Earth is the center of the universe, right?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Bible is a standard that has been tested for over 1500 years by people a lot smarter than you and I
> *Reply by StarStarfish*
> People so smart they used to believe bathing left you to the influence of bad spirits? Who thought that drilling holes into your head was a way to release demons?


*If you are going to make statement about the bible why didn’t you give a biblical reference?* You did not hesitate to ask me to provide how the Bible was tested even though I already posted some information about that; how about you back up your statement with some Biblical references?







> * By Starstarfish
> And tested in what manner?* To my knowledge, no one has come back from the dead and left a non-religious historical record of what happened in order to provide "the final answer." So - what exactly has been tested?



*



By Mr Blunt
The Bible has sold more than a BILLION copies over a 2000-year period. No other book in history comes close to this reality.

The Bible has been translated into more than 2,200 languages. No other book in history comes close to this reality.


Compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence to support it than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.

Click to expand...

*Of those billions of people over a 2000 year period do you think that some of them would have tested the Bible? The Bible addresses issues far too important for it not be test. Even some great scientist have examined the Bible and found it to be very valuble









> Science is very valuable in some areas but not dominate when it [sic] comes to faith.
> 
> By Starstarfish
> Faith is very valuable in some areas but not to dominate when it comes to science. Muslims seem to have figured that to a degree that Christians are still wrangling with. Though, I guess we did agree to stop *burning people at the stake because they don't believe the Earth is the center of the universe*, right?


*We are talking about the Bible so stay on the subject.* The Bible says absolutely nothing about “…burning people at the stake because they don't believe the Earth is the center of the universe”


Have you read this thread? This forum is about spirituality not science. Here is a reference for this thread 



> Quote of Curious Guy---OP
> 
> Me, *I believe God wants* everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?



*If you want to promote your idea about science why post on a spirituality forum that asks a question about what God wants?*


----------



## Starstarfish

> If you are going to make statement about the bible why didn’t you give a biblical reference? You did not hesitate to ask me to provide how the Bible was tested even though I already posted some information about that; how about you back up your statement with some Biblical references?


Because my point wasn't about a biblical reference, it was a point of historical fact. People used to believe these things, whether or not it came from the Bible. People who saw witches as the reason for illness or a poor planting season still supposedly believed in the Bible's message. 

My point wasn't about referencing the Bible, it was about pointing out the flaw in the comment that the Bible has been tested by "people more intelligent than you or I." Who are these people? 



> Compared with other ancient writings, the Bible has more manuscript evidence to support it than any ten pieces of classical literature combined.


Manuscript evidence of ... ? That it existed? That it's old? That it's popular?

There's evidence for the Epic of Gilgamesh that also involved an angry god destroying the world in a flood and a single man rescuing all the animals now found on earth. Does the fact that it has ancient manuscripts make that story more or less credible than the bible? Why or why not?



> The Bible has sold more than a BILLION copies over a 2000-year period. No other book in history comes close to this reality.
> 
> The Bible has been translated into more than 2,200 languages. No other book in history comes close to this reality.


So the Bible is more credible simply because it's popular?



> Of those billions of people over a 2000 year period do you think that some of them would have tested the Bible? The Bible addresses issues far too important for it not be test. Even some great scientist have examined the Bible and found it to be very valuble


Again, tested in what way? The Constitution arguably addresses issues far too important for it not to be tested, and in some ways it has succeeded and in some ways it has failed. An instructional manual is only as good as the willingness and ability for people to implement it.

And yes, I've read apologetics like "Case for a Creator" which are very interesting books. But faith isn't about what everyone else thinks or what everyone else believes. 



> If you want to promote your idea about science why post on a spirituality forum that asks a question about what God wants?


Why do you imagine that God gave us deductive power and reasoning (the basic foundations of science)? Are these traits only of "fallen Men?" Or were these traits always inherent in our nature? Wasn't Adam the first biologist when he was able to differentiate the animal species and given them all their proper names, according to Genesis? 

I believe God gave us that ability to learn more about ourselves, our world, and our universe to enjoy their majesty and improve them. I believe that's what God wants. 

You can differ in that opinion. But it doesn't detract from the ability or fairness of me to express my thoughts as much as you can express yours. To my knowledge, the TAM religious sub-forum hasn't been set aside only for members of one faith, or one interpretation of that faith.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *Quote of StarStarfish*
> My point wasn't about referencing the Bible; it was about pointing out the flaw in the comment that the Bible has been tested by *"people more intelligent than you or I.
> " Who are these people*?




*Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)*
Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts



*Michael Faraday (1791-1867)*
Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity. 


*These people above are smarter than you or I.*


Starstarfish,
*I am not going to play your game where you keep asking me to prove that the Bible has been tested.* 


The OP asked the question reprinted below




> *Quote of Curious Guy---OP*
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Starstarfish, whether you not believe in the bible or that it has not been tested is not going to change the fact that millions of people for centuries believe the Bible and that it have been tested. Some of those people are smarter than you or I and have examined the Bible in greater depth than you or I.
> 
> 
> The OP is asking what we believe that God wants. BILLIONS of people trust the Bible to guide them in knowing what God wants and no one is telling you to believe in the Bible so *why don’t you address the OP rather than try to discredit the Bible*. Your post about drilling holes in people’s heads is saying nothing about what you believe what God wants.


----------



## Wazza

If you play the game of believing what the smartest guy in the room believes, it's a dead end IMO. There are people of many faiths far smarter than me. Who is smarter, Dawkins or CS Lewis for example? 

I think you also need to recognise that people disagree about exactly what the bible, or other religious texts, teach. 

For myself it's a journey. I understand more than I did but I have a lot more to learn. The important thing is to get started.


----------



## Mr Blunt

*Wazza
Who is your post directed to?
Are you directing your post to me or someone else?*


----------



## sh987

To answer the original question of the thread, I don't have an opinion about homosexuality within a religious context, and have as much respect for them as I do anybody else.


----------



## Wazza

Mr Blunt said:


> *Wazza
> Who is your post directed to?
> Are you directing your post to me or someone else?*


Not aimed at any one person. Just a comment that seemed relevant to the discussion.


----------



## hawkeye

Mr Blunt said:


> *Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)*
> Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts
> 
> 
> 
> *Michael Faraday (1791-1867)*
> Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity.
> 
> 
> *These people above are smarter than you or I.*
> 
> 
> Starstarfish,
> *I am not going to play your game where you keep asking me to prove that the Bible has been tested.*
> 
> 
> The OP asked the question reprinted below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Quote of Curious Guy---OP*
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Starstarfish, whether you not believe in the bible or that it has not been tested is not going to change the fact that millions of people for centuries believe the Bible and that it have been tested. Some of those people are smarter than you or I and have examined the Bible in greater depth than you or I.
> 
> 
> The OP is asking what we believe that God wants. BILLIONS of people trust the Bible to guide them in knowing what God wants and no one is telling you to believe in the Bible so *why don’t you address the OP rather than try to discredit the Bible*. Your post about drilling holes in people’s heads is saying nothing about what you believe what God wants.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all one huge appeal to authority fallacy. Whether some smart people are Christians doesn't prove anything about the veracity of the bible.
> 
> The last part is an appeal to popularity fallacy.
> 
> Nothing you've said does anything to prove your point. And i'm still not even sure what "tested" means.
Click to expand...


----------



## Wazza

Tested.

As a horny but Christian teenager I wondered if the biblical teachings on sexuality were old fashioned. The sexual revolution of the sixties, the pill, modern ideas.....

Now I read the stories on TAM of people who thought they could separate sex and emotion, people who thought infidelity doesn't matter as long as my partner doesn't find out......

I look at all the pain that causes and I realise maybe the bible teaching on sex is not as dumb as I thought. 

That is an example of "tested" to me. In my life, it works.

I stil have questions, but imo the best thing is to make a start now, and accept I will be learning as I go. That is why I think a faith-based decision is necessary. Make the best choice you can, then evolve it. It's the old military axion...a good plan now is often better than a great plan later.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> This is all one huge appeal to authority fallacy. Whether some smart people are Christians doesn't prove anything about the veracity of the bible.


There is one point about smart Christians. People of Dawkins ilk would have you believe that Christianity and reason are mutually exclusive. Smart Christians who grapple with matters of faith in a deep and meaningful way provide a reminder that faith and intellect can coexist. Reassuring for us religious types, and a reminder for atheists who are too prepared to dismiss the mental processes of those who have a faith.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> There is one point about smart Christians. People of Dawkins ilk would have you believe that Christianity and reason are mutually exclusive. Smart Christians who grapple with matters of faith in a deep and meaningful way provide a reminder that faith and intellect can coexist. Reassuring for us religious types, and a reminder for atheists who are too prepared to dismiss the mental processes of those who have a faith.


I'd agree that too many think they're mutually exclusive. Although I think a lot of atheists make the distinction that Christians are perfectly capable of using reason.....it's just they make an exception when it comes to a god. Basically that there's a god-shaped hole in their reasoning, which, I think many Christians might even admit to. Or not, i don't really know.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> I'd agree that too many think they're mutually exclusive. Although I think a lot of atheists make the distinction that Christians are perfectly capable of using reason.....it's just they make an exception when it comes to a god. Basically that there's a god-shaped hole in their reasoning, which, I think many Christians might even admit to. Or not, i don't really know.


And my earlier point was that many atheists make the same mistake. Since God has never been proven not disproven, all anyone can to is look at what we have and make the best conclusions we can for the bits we don't know.

Whether that is a hole in the reasoning, or a recognition that more is needed, probably depends on your perspective.


----------



## hawkeye

Wazza said:


> And my earlier point was that many atheists make the same mistake. Since God has never been proven not disproven, all anyone can to is look at what we have and make the best conclusions we can for the bits we don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> Whether that is a hole in the reasoning, or a recognition that more is needed, probably depends on your perspective.



Sure, but I think your making the common mistake, whether you mean to or not, that the existence of a god is some kind of 50/50 coin flip. Yes, god hasn't been disproven, but there are endless number of claims that you could say that about. Thor hasn't been disproven either. Nor has Zeus. Or universe-creating Fat Elvis. 

And Christians don't believe any of those things. Why? They use their reason. Until it comes to their own god. Hence the god shaped hole.


----------



## Wazza

hawkeye said:


> Sure, but I think your making the common mistake, whether you mean to or not, that the existence of a god is some kind of 50/50 coin flip. Yes, god hasn't been disproven, but there are endless number of claims that you could say that about. Thor hasn't been disproven either. Nor has Zeus. Or universe-creating Fat Elvis.
> 
> And Christians don't believe any of those things. Why? They use their reason. Until it comes to their own god. Hence the god shaped hole.


I don't think it is 50 50. The fact I am a Christian surely says I see the odds differently. 

We already covered the Thor / Zeus thing a while back. Do we need to visit it again?


----------



## lovelyblue

As a Christian who was raise in a church going family all of my life. Homosexuality never really seemed to be a problem with me.

As a Christian I try my very best not to judge God's children-(My view).To me if you're a good person if you don't hurt other people and you're nice to me who am I to judge what you do behind closed doors.

I also don't believe that homosexuality is a choice.


----------



## hartvalve

Curious_Guy said:


> I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
> However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.
> 
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?


I think about what holds true according to my Faith. That all sin was seen wrong in the eyes of God eons ago, long before anyone here was born. Again, according to my Faith. 

Every sin, including homosexuality was and still is as sinful as it ever was, but forgiven in the eyes of God. In the eyes of many, homosexuality is not seen as sinful. That belief makes no difference to those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. I am one of those who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

I choose to love the sinner, no matter the sin, instead.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

zildjian_4 said:


> I respect everyone, and I do not look down on gay people.
> 
> However, if you're looking for Gods(Jesus Christ, from the bible) perspective, its pretty clear in the bible, and any post otherwise is talking about a different God. The bible is clear that it is an 'abomination' and sinful. God created man and woman to be together.
> 
> Before the haters come out, just realize that I'm simply replying to the question in hand and not spewing religious dogma everywhere when people didn't ask for it.
> 
> Cheers


No hate here, but I'd kindly point out that the bible also has talking snakes. It is by no means a work that can be taken literally.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Wazza said:


> There is one point about smart Christians. People of Dawkins ilk would have you believe that Christianity and reason are mutually exclusive. Smart Christians who grapple with matters of faith in a deep and meaningful way provide a reminder that faith and intellect can coexist. Reassuring for us religious types, and a reminder for atheists who are too prepared to dismiss the mental processes of those who have a faith.


Faith and Christianity are not synonymous. Acknowledge this fact and you will go a long way toward unity rather than ostracism. Moreover, referring to Darwin and people of his "ilk" dismisses fact. Evolution exists. Anyone who has a dog knows that there are many breeds. Each was breed by mating dogs of different traits to form a new breed. We are able to create new breeds because all living things evolve. Think of it as another miracle from God that this can and does happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Regardless of whether or not a higher power exists, which none of us will know until we die, I feel there are a few things we can say with relative certainty:
1. One's original sexual preference is inborn - it is not chosen.
2. If God exists, based on 1., we can surmise God made homosexuality
3. If God exists and made homosexuality and knows it is not a choice, I don't see how God can condemn a homosexual.
4. If the argument to #3 comes from quotes from the Bible, the bible was written by man. God did not create the Bible. It was written during a time when man thought the world was flat. Many assumptions have been made through the centuries due to ignorance. I find the same can be said for the men who wrote the Bible.

This is not a pro- or anti-Christian/God post. I find the possibility of a supreme being fascinating and see how it could be or not. I'm more agnostic or curious than making a finite determination for myself. But often morals and religion are co-mingled and I take offense to that. People can be good, loyal, loving, hard working, humanitarians without religion just as religious figures can (and have been on occasion) selfish, power hungry, manipulative and careless.

So religious does not = right any more than atheist = wrong. Both can exist. So for humans to make a determination that a particular act is sinful is being judgmental - something the Bible teaches against. If one believes in God, one must acknowledge that only God can make that determination. So see 1-3.

Note that "sin" and "immoral" are two different things. Sin implies admittance to heaven and/or salvation is somehow not to be extended to that person. A society can call the act immoral, but that does not make it a sin. The bible does not say adults should not have sex with children but as a society we know that is immoral. Yet according to the Bible it is not a sin.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters by bringing pedophilia, but rather saying homosexuality is sinful based on Biblical content is a slippery slope of righteousness.


----------



## Fozzy

ebp123 said:


> Faith and Christianity are not synonymous. Acknowledge this fact and you will go a long way toward unity rather than ostracism. Moreover, referring to Darwin and people of his "ilk" dismisses fact. Evolution exists. Anyone who has a dog knows that there are many breeds. Each was breed by mating dogs of different traits to form a new breed. We are able to create new breeds because all living things evolve. Think of it as another miracle from God that this can and does happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wazza referenced Dawkins, not Darwin.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Fozzy said:


> Wazza referenced Dawkins, not Darwin.


Ah... Thanks. Although he should be free to be an unabashed Atheist if he wants. If we are about free speech and all that. Just because someone disagrees with your religious views doesn't make them a lesser person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Aspydad

EnjoliWoman said:


> Regardless of whether or not a higher power exists, which none of us will know until we die, I feel there are a few things we can say with relative certainty:
> 1. One's original sexual preference is inborn - it is not chosen.
> 2. If God exists, based on 1., we can surmise God made homosexuality
> 3. If God exists and made homosexuality and knows it is not a choice, I don't see how God can condemn a homosexual.
> 4. If the argument to #3 comes from quotes from the Bible, the bible was written by man. God did not create the Bible. It was written during a time when man thought the world was flat. Many assumptions have been made through the centuries due to ignorance. I find the same can be said for the men who wrote the Bible.
> 
> This is not a pro- or anti-Christian/God post. I find the possibility of a supreme being fascinating and see how it could be or not. I'm more agnostic or curious than making a finite determination for myself. But often morals and religion are co-mingled and I take offense to that. People can be good, loyal, loving, hard working, humanitarians without religion just as religious figures can (and have been on occasion) selfish, power hungry, manipulative and careless.
> 
> So religious does not = right any more than atheist = wrong. Both can exist. So for humans to make a determination that a particular act is sinful is being judgmental - something the Bible teaches against. If one believes in God, one must acknowledge that only God can make that determination. So see 1-3.
> 
> Note that "sin" and "immoral" are two different things. Sin implies admittance to heaven and/or salvation is somehow not to be extended to that person. A society can call the act immoral, but that does not make it a sin. The bible does not say adults should not have sex with children but as a society we know that is immoral. Yet according to the Bible it is not a sin.
> 
> I'm not trying to muddy the waters by bringing pedophilia, but rather saying homosexuality is sinful based on Biblical content is a slippery slope of righteousness.


Not sure what authority you are speaking from to make the statement that all believe that homosexuals are born that way?? Actually this statement is quite humorous to me!! Maybe you were joking?? 

I for one do not believe that one is born a homosexual! Any more than one is born an alcoholic. Or that sociopath killer last week was born to be murderer. Sin is a choice that all people have and yes we all have this in common.

The only common thread that ALL homosexuals have is that they for some reason chose to try sex with a person of the same sex – why would they ever try this?? My guess is that it is related to the same inner drive that one must have to try cocaine or try heroin – why?? I will tell you – sin!! Complete and utter disrespect for the body that God gave them.

As for the rest of your post about the Bible not against pedophilia - I would really like to no what Bible you are looking at? Or - have you ever even read it?

With regards to God creating these sins so it must be alright - what an absolute rediculous statement!! If you have not heard - God created man with freedon to chose to sin or not to sin - man chose sin!! Thats the entire point of what sin is!


----------



## SurpriseMyself

Aspydad said:


> Not sure what authority you are speaking from to make the statement that all believe that homosexuals are born that way?? Actually this statement is quite humorous to me!! Maybe you were joking??
> 
> I for one do not believe that one is born a homosexual! Any more than one is born an alcoholic. Or that sociopath killer last week was born to be murderer. Sin is a choice that all people have and yes we all have this in common.
> 
> The only common thread that ALL homosexuals have is that they for some reason chose to try sex with a person of the same sex – why would they ever try this?? My guess is that it is related to the same inner drive that one must have to try cocaine or try heroin – why?? I will tell you – sin!! Complete and utter disrespect for the body that God gave them.
> 
> As for the rest of your post about the Bible not against pedophilia - I would really like to no what Bible you are looking at? Or - have you ever even read it?
> 
> With regards to God creating these sins so it must be alright - what an absolute rediculous statement!! If you have not heard - God created man with freedon to chose to sin or not to sin - man chose sin!! Thats the entire point of what sin is!


Actually, God created man with the freedom to choose and, because of Adam and Eve, original sin. So you and I and everyone on the planet is a sinner from the moment of conception to the moment of death. Remember he who is without sin may cast the first stone? I think you have a lot to learn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aspydad

ebp123 said:


> Actually, God created man with the freedom to choose and, because of Adam and Eve, original sin. So you and I and everyone on the planet is a sinner from the moment of conception to the moment of death. Remember he who is without sin may cast the first stone? I think you have a lot to learn.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I think you have allot to learn!

Jesus was born a man - just like you and me. As a baby, he was not capable of sinning - just like you and me. When he became of age where he could choose to sin or not to - he chose not to. You and I chose to sin at the age of accountability- and from that moment on - we were certainly sinners. The point I made above is still true whether you like it or not - man choses to sin or not to everyday - we were given that free will. We do not sin because God made a mistake in our creation. Adam and Eve chose sin and from that point on all of their decedents have had to pay the price - we live in a world that is broken – our bodies are broken because of sin (Sin has consequence) - the only hope we have is to accept God's grace and accept Jesus Christ as savior so that all of your sin's will be washed away. This does not mean that our earthy bodies are repaired to as perfect – it means that when we die, we will be given Heavenly bodies are perfect – and that’s the promise of Jesus.


I think you may want to check your facts.


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## lovelyblue

I for one do not believe that one is born a homosexual! 
______

So I guess you weren't born heterosexual?

You choose to be attracted to woman and not to men?


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## Personal

ebp123 said:


> Actually, God created man with the freedom to choose and, because of Adam and Eve, original sin. So you and I and everyone on the planet is a sinner from the moment of conception to the moment of death.


An unlikely story!

On the subject of religion and homosexuality, homosexuality is usually considered poor form within a number of religions. So if one is a homosexual they would probably be best served by not being religious, although having said that all of us would be best served by not being religious.


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## arbitrator

*Let's start off by saying that I am a religious born-again Christian who simply loves God beyond measure! I believe in the scripture and know that the words of the prophets and the disciples largely spoke against homosexuality as a social norm, all too often intoning that it was reviled by our Creator.

From a personal standpoint, I cannot identify with homosexuality from both an ecclesiastical and a social line of advocacy. Personally, I think that it is wrong and while I can somewhat understand its social rationale as such, I don't really want to subject myself or my family to it.

Just as all of us have been given mortal bodies with souls, so is the same with homosexuals. God created them in his likeness just as he created heterosexuals. Ergo, God loves all creatures of his creation and wants all to come to worship Him.

It is not my duty nor my intention to ostracize or discriminate against them for who they are. All too often, far too many people want to try to play God in this great debate. Why?

Live and let live, love our brother and our neighbor as our selves, and if there is something inherently or remotely condemnational regarding their beliefs and practice, contingent that they are not either killing people to promote its furtherance, why not just let God be God!

If what they are doing is such an abomination, it would certainly stand to reason that our Heavenly Father will deal with them on an individual basis just as He will with all of us for our many sins perpetrated against Him. *


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## GettingIt_2

Hmmm, interesting thread. 

I think Christianity is so malleable as to be rendered meaningless. That is, anyone can call themselves a Christian, and point to their reasons why using selectively chosen scripture and various interpretations of it. 

There is nothing wrong with choosing your personal relationship with a god. It puzzles me as to why that relationship needs to fit a certain mold that can be validated and labeled by others. 

I don't even know how to begin to describe my spiritual being and my faith, but I think some self-identified Christians would consider my behavior, if not my views, to be Christian. Other self-identified Christians would call me a satanist. Fortunately, I don't feel the need to put a label on myself, or on others. 

As for the question of gays, they absolutely should have their civil rights protected, which means legally recognized marriage with all the same rights and privileges of hetero marriage. 

You don't have to like it, and neither institutional believe systems have to approve, but the US isn't a theocracy, and the Christian founders were clear and deliberate about this. 

Americans are fleeing religious institutions in droves because they see them as inflexible on matters of doctrine. I don't necessarily think this means that those folks do not develop a personal relationship with god, based on their observations and experiences with their self and with humanity and with the natural world around them. This is as it should be, I think.


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## mablenc

To me religion as about faith, in what you believe. I not sure where intelligence comes to play. One can be religious or an atheist and be both intelligent or a simple minded person. I would think that many in the Christian faith would have more love and compassion as Jesus came to teach that. For people to love thy neighbor not only the people you agree with. That's the hard part of his teaching, it's not easy. 
I'm not homosexual so I could not just say that they choose to be gay, I don't feel what they feel. The people I know have told me they were born that way and always knew. Again, I can't argue with something I don't know or feel. 

What I do treat people fairly and with respect. I mind my own business and let others live their life as they please.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself

arbitrator said:


> *Let's start off by saying that I am a religious born-again Christian who simply loves God beyond measure! I believe in the scripture and know that the words of the prophets and the disciples largely spoke against homosexuality as a social norm, all too often intoning that it was reviled by our Creator.
> 
> From a personal standpoint, I cannot identify with homosexuality from both an ecclesiastical and a social line of advocacy. Personally, I think that it is wrong and while I can somewhat understand its social rationale as such, I don't really want to subject myself or my family to it.
> 
> Just as all of us have been given mortal bodies with souls, so is the same with homosexuals. God created them in his likeness just as he created heterosexuals. Ergo, God loves all creatures of his creation and wants all to come to worship Him.
> 
> It is not my duty nor my intention to ostracize or discriminate against them for who they are. All too often, far too many people want to try to play God in this great debate. Why?
> 
> Live and let live, love our brother and our neighbor as our selves, and if there is something inherently or remotely condemnational regarding their beliefs and practice, contingent that they are not either killing people to promote its furtherance, why not just let God be God!
> 
> If what they are doing is such an abomination, it would certainly stand to reason that our Heavenly Father will deal with them on an individual basis just as He will with all of us for our many sins perpetrated against Him. *


Indeed! So many things are listed as sins in the bible. If you focus on one action you consider a sin, you should ask yourself why. Why do you take such issue with this particular sin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ariel_angel77

While I am not against homosexuals (I have a homosexual best friend) I am completely against homosexuality. 

The reason is that there are several bible verses against it. Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:8-10; and Jude 7. It is very clearly a sin. When God talks about who will suffer in the eternal fire and will not inherit the kingdom of God, homosexuals are of that group, along with fornicators, drunks, liars, abusive, thieves, cheaters, etc.

However, I will not judge any one homosexual person. I will only love them. It is up to God to judge.


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## Starstarfish

ariel_angel77 said:


> While I am not against homosexuals (I have a homosexual best friend) I am completely against homosexuality.
> 
> The reason is that there are several bible verses against it. Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:8-10; and Jude 7. It is very clearly a sin. When God talks about who will suffer in the eternal fire and will not inherit the kingdom of God, homosexuals are of that group, along with fornicators, drunks, liars, abusive, thieves, cheaters, etc.
> 
> However, I will not judge any one homosexual person. I will only love them. It is up to God to judge.


Are you honest with your friend that you feel this way?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75

Starstarfish said:


> Are you honest with your friend that you feel this way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am. And my friend is not a Christian, and not even religious at all. He understands why I feel the way I do, and is fine with it.


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## ariel_angel77

Starstarfish said:


> Are you honest with your friend that you feel this way?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. He is understanding. I don't know why he wouldn't be. I'm not discriminating against gays; I just don't agree with homosexuality because it's against the Bible and that's it.


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## Starstarfish

So is cooking dinner when you have your period or wearing cotton-linen blend clothing. It just seems odd to me that's the only part of Leviticus anyone seems to remember or take seriously.


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## ariel_angel77

Starstarfish said:


> So is cooking dinner when you have your period or wearing cotton-linen blend clothing. It just seems odd to me that's the only part of Leviticus anyone seems to remember or take seriously.


I did not mention Leviticus in my list of verses. A lot of people try to use that argument.

Those laws were appropriate for those people at that time. Jesus came to fulfill many laws, and not being with someone of the same sex was one of them. In fact, it is mentioned several times. There is no doubt that it is sinful as stated in the bible.


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## Starstarfish

I just wish I saw more people who are comfortable posting here about what a sin is would get more involved in some of the rampant porn discussions that float around TAM every day. 

Something about sinning, adultery, and lustful looking would be at least a refreshing change to the usual "red pill" "blue pill" rhetoric.

It just seems that commenting on certain sexual sins as indeed, sins, mentioned in the Bible is no longer socially acceptable and thus no longer done. But as homosexuality and anything really that isn't stereotypical hetero-normative sex behavior is in the minority it still remains the thing. And I find that kind of hypocritical.


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## Maricha75

Some of us do, Starstarfish. I've gotten into those kinds of discussions and my beliefs have gotten mentioned as well. I also talk about promiscuity, adultery, etc. I cannot force someone to share my beliefs on any subject. And I say that, too. All I can do is tell what I believe and why... it's up to whomever reads it whether they choose to agree or not.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## hawkeye

ariel_angel77 said:


> I did not mention Leviticus in my list of verses. A lot of people try to use that argument.
> 
> Those laws were appropriate for those people at that time. Jesus came to fulfill many laws, and not being with someone of the same sex was one of them. In fact, it is mentioned several times. There is no doubt that it is sinful as stated in the bible.


OT laws aren't appropriate for anyone. Ever. Much less coming from a supposedly perfect god.


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## Sbrown

I'm not pro gay marriage or anti gay marriage (that seems to be the only two choices we are given) I'm a mind my own damn business kinda guy. It neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket. (Can't recall who said that first) 

I actually went to a "pride fest" in Minneapolis a few weeks ago while on vacation with some friends (non of us are gay btw) it was great fun and totally not what I expected. Just a bunch of vendors trying to sell stuff. I only had one concern/thought while I was there. If being gay is not a choice then why have a festival for it? That would be like having a blonde fest or maybe even a ginger fest. But what ever. Just remember every religion to ever exist was developed and written by MEN!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

> If being gay is not a choice then why have a festival for it? That would be like having a blonde fest or maybe even a ginger fest.


You also have German Fest, Polish Fest, and Irish Fest (and any other ethnic fest one can think of) is that saying being German is a choice?


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## CrazyCora

The only disagreement I have with homosexuality is when children are brought into the picture. I believe that only a male and female human (or donation from each) can create another human. I believe that we have been designed that way for a reason. Be it God or evolution, that's the way we are designed. As for whom you love, I wouldn't begin to tell someone they can't love someone else even if I don't agree with it.


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## SurpriseMyself

CrazyCora said:


> The only disagreement I have with homosexuality is when children are brought into the picture. I believe that only a male and female human (or donation from each) can create another human. I believe that we have been designed that way for a reason. Be it God or evolution, that's the way we are designed. As for whom you love, I wouldn't begin to tell someone they can't love someone else even if I don't agree with it.


Uh.... only a man and a woman can create another human. So strike that as "belief" since it's a fact. 

It's also a fact that married couples can and do use artificial insemination or adopt when they can't have a child on their own. Some adopt just because they think it's the right thing to give a child in need a loving home to grow up in. I assume you have no problem with these choices, just with the gender of the couple making that choice?


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## CantePe

I have no problem all the way around with the LGBT community. I'd be a hypocrite seeing as I'm bisexual.


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## Flying_Dutchman

LOVE, and people who practice it, never hurt anybody.

People who practice and/or advocate HATE are the ones who spoil things for others - whether in the home, in their communities or globally.


Professing any kind of faith is irrelevant. Bad/intolerant/deceitful types will aquire ANY 'badge' to fool others and hide their true selves. Rogue cops, well-dressed con men, paedophile priests. Dressing as a pilot doesn't make somebody capable of flying a plane.

You assess people by their behaviour and other qualities, not the badges, uniforms and faiths they wear.

Any individual or faith preaching intolerance should be condemned - especially if what they're attacking is love. Love makes the world a happier place. Hate and haters don't.

I can't say it often enough - If something doesn't hurt us physically or financially there's no need to concern ourselves with it. We have laws to deal with things we all find abhorrant. 

Beyond that, we all have different morals, and the moment you decide yours are better than somebody elses and seek to condemn them, it's YOU that becomes the intolerant threat to somebody elses security, not the other way around..

Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Buddist, hippy, goth, lawyer, fireman, secretary, cleaner, gay, straight. The label is irrelevant. Whether you're a lover or a hater is what matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anonymous07

"Being an atheist is okay.

Being an atheist and shaming religion and spirituality as silly or not real is not okay.

Being a Christian is okay.

Being a homophobic, misogynistic, racist, or otherwise hateful person in the name of Christianity is not okay.

Being a reindeer is okay.

Bullying and excluding another reindeer because he has a shiny red nose is not okay."

As a Christian, people should follow the Golden Rule. It doesn't matter what the other person has done or who they are, you treat them kindly. It is not your place to judge. Only God can do that.


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## kindnessrules

The question could be interpreted in various ways - what do I feel, how do I feel, what do I think, what do I understand? And what is the reason for the question: to argue and challenge, to respectfully exchange views, to have an interesting discussion, or to help the OP clarify their own opinions?

The Bible says homosexuality is not pleasing to God, and as a Christian I accept what the Bible says. If I did not, I would not be a Christian. God wants procreation - the Bible says he is looking for Godly offspring - and gays cannot procreate naturally. 

Now, as far as what I think personally: I don't much care how gay people live their lives. I believe there is intentionally extreme rebellious acting-out behavior, as in Romans 1. I also realize there are gay people who sincerely want to be Christians and follow Christ (by the way, church attendance and following rituals does not mean one is a Christian; having given one's heart to Christ and being born again spiritually and sincerely wanting to follow Him out of love makes one a Christian).

How can a person be a homosexual, which the Bible says is wrong, and still be a Christian? I have no idea and do not intend to twist my brain into spaghetti trying to figure it out, nor do I wish to get into a debate. The Bible says his ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. I am not God and I certainly don't know the answer to every question. I just know how I choose to live and must give others the right to do the same.


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## Mike6211

[


kindnessrules said:


> How can a person be a homosexual, which the Bible says is [not pleasing to God], and still be a Christian? I have no idea ....I am not God and I certainly don't know the answer to every question


Indeed so. Something that a lot of self-professed Christians would do well to remember, particularly bearing in mind that



kindnessrules said:


> the Bible says His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts are higher than my thoughts


and that 



kindnessrules said:


> having given one's heart to Christ and being born again spiritually and sincerely wanting to follow Him out of love makes one a Christian - church attendance and following rituals does not mean one is a Christian.


So, it is indeed not necessary for you to take on the burden of 



kindnessrules said:


> twist[ing] my brain into spaghetti trying to figure it out.


But that does not mean that the question cannot be considered, with a hope of achieving at least some insight, if not resolution.

It seems to me that a lot of it comes down to what it actually means to be "a Christian". And I think there is food for thought by comparison with the modern Western (neo-)shamanic community. Being sensitive to the criticism of "cultural imperialism" - more "resource grabbing" from the colonies, in this case "copy-pasting" indigenous shamanism from traditional cultures into contemporary Western culture - the practice has grown of self-describing as "shamanic practitioner" rather than as "shaman". The idea here being that some modicum of deference is given to the source, that the practitioner is practising in good faith, but it is not up to the practitioner to self-describe with the label "shaman".

Similarly it seems to me that the label "Christian" is - whether self-professed "Christians" like it or not - simply a shorthand for "Christianity practitioner". That is, someone, including 



kindnessrules said:


> gay people who sincerely want to ... follow Christ


who is making an effort to do so.

The authority to bestow the label "[true] Christian" (as in definite, no-doubt-about-it, "passed the threshhold", join the Club), if that label is ever to be applied at all, is not in the hands of mankind at all, least of all in the hands of self-opinionated bible-bashers. So it must follow that whether a gay Christianity practitioner's unpreparedness to abandon same-gender sexual relationships is so offensive to God that s/he cannot ever be labelled a "true Christian" is a matter for God, not mankind. And those who are luxuriating in their self-proclaimed "holy wrapper" of being Christian, and who feel discomforted by this realisation, might do well to reflect on their preparedness (or lack thereof) to show some modicum of deference, in this case to God. Maybe even throw some humility into the mix as well. Judge not, that ye be not judged.


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## Malpheous

I'm a heathen. So my feeling about homosexuality from a religious point of view is, "live and let live". Fun reading the "Christian" debate though.


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## CuddleBug

zildjian_4 said:


> I respect everyone, and I do not look down on gay people.
> 
> However, if you're looking for Gods(Jesus Christ, from the bible) perspective, its pretty clear in the bible, and any post otherwise is talking about a different God. The bible is clear that it is an 'abomination' and sinful. God created man and woman to be together.
> 
> Before the haters come out, just realize that I'm simply replying to the question in hand and not spewing religious dogma everywhere when people didn't ask for it.
> 
> Cheers



Perfectly said.:smthumbup:


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## CuddleBug

Anonymous07 said:


> "Being an atheist is okay.
> 
> Being an atheist and shaming religion and spirituality as silly or not real is not okay.
> 
> Being a Christian is okay.
> 
> Being a homophobic, misogynistic, racist, or otherwise hateful person in the name of Christianity is not okay.
> 
> Being a reindeer is okay.
> 
> Bullying and excluding another reindeer because he has a shiny red nose is not okay."
> 
> As a Christian, people should follow the Golden Rule. It doesn't matter what the other person has done or who they are, you treat them kindly. It is not your place to judge. Only God can do that.



Very well put.:smthumbup:


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## askari

I agree with Anonymous.....'Only God can do that (judge)'.

God created man and woman...we were each designed so that we could re-produce together. She was given a vagina and ovaries, he was given a penis and testicles. The vagina was designed to accept the penis for the penis to 'intoduce' sperm to the egg.
Fact.

If God had meant for men to have sex with men (or women with women) he would have given them the necessary equipment.
Homosexual relationships are 'un-natural'.

That is my 'basis', HOWEVER, I fully accept that people of the same sex can and do fall in love and have very happy and loving relationships.

Whilst I believe that there is a time and place for everything in life, I don't mind seeing a male and female in an intimate embrace under a tree in a park etc but I wouldn't be happy seeing a man & man or woman & woman doing it.

I am against same sex couples having children.....as I believe children need to grow up in an environment that has a woman and a man in it.

I know with my own children that (on the whole) if they are frightened and feel they need protecting they will come to me....if they are sad or poorly and need TLC they will go to their mother.
Its natural.

In closing...do I accept homosexuality? Yes. Do I approve of it? No.


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## WilliamMoney

I have a few friends that work in the mental health field.
From what they've told me, 99% of homosexuals were sexually abused. 

The one friend of mine, who's been a psychiatrist for over 12 years, has told me that every single homosexual he's counselled has been sexually abused.
Another acquaintance, who has been involved with counselling alcoholics and drug abusers has said the same thing.
He has yet to meet a homosexual who wasn't abused.

So if this is true, then I think it's even more important that Christians put down their pitchforks and rocks and accept these people.
One could make the argument that homosexuality isn't a choice then. It was basically forced upon them.

But in the end, Jesus's entire message was to love and accept.
Putting people down, telling them their evil or sinners, isn't helping anyone.


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## Anonymous07

kindnessrules said:


> How can a person be a homosexual, which the Bible says is wrong, and still be a Christian? I have no idea and do not intend to twist my brain into spaghetti trying to figure it out, nor do I wish to get into a debate. The Bible says his ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. I am not God and I certainly don't know the answer to every question. I just know how I choose to live and must give others the right to do the same.


A Christian is someone who believes in Christ, so it's fairly easy for a homosexual to be a Christian. 



WilliamMoney said:


> I have a few friends that work in the mental health field.
> From what they've told me, 99% of homosexuals were sexually abused.
> 
> The one friend of mine, who's been a psychiatrist for over 12 years, has told me that every single homosexual he's counselled has been sexually abused.
> Another acquaintance, who has been involved with counselling alcoholics and drug abusers has said the same thing.
> He has yet to meet a homosexual who wasn't abused.
> 
> So if this is true, then I think it's even more important that Christians put down their pitchforks and rocks and accept these people.
> One could make the argument that homosexuality isn't a choice then. It was basically forced upon them.
> 
> But in the end, Jesus's entire message was to love and accept.
> Putting people down, telling them their evil or sinners, isn't helping anyone.


So your friends have made up a statistic? I have never heard of such a statistic and don't follow it at all. I know quite a few homosexuals and none of them were sexually abused. 

There are 2 men who are homosexual and are extremely involved in the church I go to(more so than most heterosexual couples). They are more Christian than many who go to that church, as they are much less judgmental, rude, disrespectful, etc. They do a lot of volunteer work, truly walking in Jesus's footsteps. I am sometimes amazed at those who call themselves "Christian" and then act holier than thou, as if they can do no wrong. As it said it the Bible, "those without sin can throw the first stone".


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## CuddleBug

Jesus tells us that homosexuality is a grave sin.

I also agree it is obviously un natural.

Do I judge those who practice homosexuality? No.

I've had gay and lesbian co workers and got along great with them. My experience in life are those who don't believe that judge and say horrible things about homosexuals and that is fact.

When you become a Christian, you become a new creature. That means, you now turn away from what God tells us are sins. You can't purposely do something, don't see it as a sin or wrong, even when God says it is a sin and wrong and then think you're a Christian??? No, you are not a Christian and are fooling yourself.

If you love to drink and get drunk, then claim you are a Christian, you are not. You get the idea.

Homosexuality is nothing new and only from modern times. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning and cannot be primarily genetic due to theoretical gay genes never merging and getting passed on.

Penis goes in vagina. Sperm merges with egg. Genetic traits from male and female are passed. Very simple to understand.

Male and Male or Female and Female = dead end and nothing gets merged and passed on naturally.

You need a male and female not just for physical reasons but for emotional ones as well.

A hand goes in a glove, and not in another hand.

I think its very sad that today's society is teaching our kids that gay, lesbian is okay just like male and female. Kids don't know what is natural and un natural anymore.

Human beings are not asexual either.

Jesus's message is love and forgiveness. So very true.

But Jesus also talked to prostitutes and told them to turn from their sinful ways. Jesus told a rich man to leave his wealth and follow him and same with tax collectors. Jesus didn't say, continue to sin and don;t turn from your ways and you're still saved.....no, you must turn from your sinful ways and then you are saved. Doesn't mean you won't desire them, I do all the time but I am admitting that I am a sinner and what I do is sin. That's the difference.

If Jesus says doing drugs is a sin. Then over time, most of the world does drugs for recreational use and no longer sees it as wrong. Is it still a sin? Yes.


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## hawkeye

Jesus Christ, this thread just keeps getting worse.


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## arbitrator

It is quite obvious that all sins should be left to be judged by God ~ not by man. The Bible makes it plain that we, in time, will all be judged by the Heavenly Father according to what we have done, and for what we have left undone. In His eyes, sin is sin ~ none is any more egregious than another.

The homosexual will be compelled to account for his eartly actions, just as the adulterer, the thief, the drunkard, the liar, the murderer, the child abuser, the idoliter, the money hoarder; you name it. It will not be done before an earthly jury of your peers ~ the evidence will already be there for them to be judged solely by the Heavenly Father. 

It is so sad to see how cavalier some folks are when it comes to their personal perception and ultimate commission of sin and fully expecting to be instantaneously absolved!

I would greatly suspect that God is not a God of hate or vengeance, but much rather a God of love. But upon confession to the Father of our many earthly sins, it is all too obvious that those sins will be forgiven!

Wow! Think I've already prepared my outline for Sunday School Class!


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## SurpriseMyself

arbitrator said:


> It is quite obvious that all sins should be left to be judged by God ~ not by man. The Bible makes it plain that we, in time, will all be judged by the Heavenly Father according to what we have done, and for what we have left undone. In His eyes, sin is sin ~ none is any more egregious than another.
> 
> The homosexual will be compelled to account for his eartly actions, just as the adulterer, the thief, the drunkard, the liar, the murderer, the child abuser, the idoliter, the money hoarder; you name it. It will not be done before an earthly jury of your peers ~ the evidence will already be there for them to be judged solely by the Heavenly Father.
> 
> It is so sad to see how cavalier some folks are when it comes to their personal perception and ultimate commission of sin and fully expecting to be instantaneously absolved!
> 
> I would greatly suspect that God is not a God of hate or vengeance, but much rather a God of love. But upon confession to the Father of our many earthly sins, it is all too obvious that those sins will be forgiven!
> 
> Wow! Think I've already prepared my outline for Sunday School Class!


This might help: A Bible study on Sin (Part-6A)


----------



## Bruticus

Curious_Guy said:


> I totally have 100% respect for gay people and married gay couples.
> However, growing up in a catholic high school, I've been told that if a gay couple is married, then that is not exactly the correct thing.
> 
> Me, I believe God wants everyone to be with whoever they love and makes them happy, whether it's the same sex or different sex.
> 
> What do you guys think?


shouldn't matter to the government a hill of beans if someone is gay or they want to get married. God, of course, is a different matter. As much as some people wish it weren't so, I think it's pretty clear He is not a fan of it.


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## CuddleBug

Bruticus said:


> shouldn't matter to the government a hill of beans if someone is gay or they want to get married. God, of course, is a different matter. As much as some people wish it weren't so, I think it's pretty clear He is not a fan of it.



Very true.

As the worlds turns away from God more and more, sins we knew were wrong become acceptable and okay and then the whole world thinks its okay when it is not.

God loves everyone equally. God loves gays and lesbians.

God doesn't love the sins we all commit.

If God tells us homosexuality is a grave sin, then a grave sin it is.

Everyone has their burden, sin to deal with in life. Mine is porn because I'm married to a LD vanilla wife. I admit I am in sin, it is wrong and I try, fail, ask for forgiveness over and over. I am weak. Being gay or lesbian is similar for them. That is their burden to bare in this life.

When we all physically die, we all are brought up before God, in the 3rd heaven in a twinkling of an eye. If we believed in Jesus, admitted we are sinners, repent and try......Jesus has washed us of all our sins so God doesn't judge us. We are washed as white as snow. But if we continued to sin, didn't admit what we do is wrong, Jesus will not save us from our sins and God judges us all for all our sins at that point. It comes down to our own personal choices in life, and we have moral free will. I am guilty so many times over, its not even funny.


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