# Help! My W said ‘ILYBINILWY!’



## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Apologies beforehand for the lengthy narrative…..I have been lurking the last week or so and feel I want to share my story for help/assistance:

Married to my beautiful wife (almost) 9 years this June with 3 amazing kids (7, 5, 1.5). About a month ago, my W hit me with the bombshell to which I was completely devastated and shocked! My first response during the next few days was (like most men I assume) trying to solve the problem and suggesting that it was just a phase. Little did I know that it would evolve into much more than a phase….

Her reasoning for ‘ILYBINILWY’ is that I haven’t really changed the last few years and during many of our heated arguments I tend to classically withdraw or paint my W in such a way that I feel she is trying to control me. My inability to change thus far has led her to require less and less of me over time and she just stopped asked for stuff. Stopped asking me to change or do anything. Let me say that I try to be very active around the house, cleaning when necessary, helping with the kids, etc…, so it’s not that. I provide financially and consider myself a pretty active dad. Her needs are more attention, listening, understanding how she feels, and for me to not withdraw during arguments or always solve her problems.

Around the same time she said ‘ILYBINILWY’ she also made an ‘emotional connection’ with someone. One seemed to trigger the other. It was one 2-3 hr. conversation and a few emails/texts over the period of 2.5 weeks. After I found out, W told me that the OM listened, was attentive, etc…the things that I had not done the last 2 years. There was no PA. I do not know if this qualifies as an EA or not, but she felt (feels) a connection. I discovered all of this by snooping….she had changed her email/FB passwords and I eventually uncovered everything almost 3 weeks ago. She had scheduled a time to meet with OM on April 1st for 2 hrs. I found out beforehand and confronted her about it and during a heated argument asked that she leave the house, not come back, and that I was done with our relationship. I can’t be sure, but this could have been an awakening of sorts for her. She returned later that night and we talked and she said she would sever communication with the OM, give me her email/FB passwords to reestablish trust, and make an effort to work on the relationship. Since then she’s said (as early as a week ago) that she still thinks about OM (how he’s doing, etc..), even indicated that she was slightly depressed about it, but insists she will not act on it.

She tells me that she loves me (almost like she loves our kids), but as of now, is NOT in love with me. I have made all of the classic blunders these last few weeks: snooping, lying about the snooping and getting caught, told her parents about the EA and what was going on (only b/c I didn’t have anyone else to talk to about it), confronting, pleading, I’ve suffocated her with articles, website, books I’m reading, found out the OMs cell/home #, email, home address, etc… and told wife what I know about him, almost every classic blunder, yes, I’ve done them all during this brief period;\

I purchased Divorce Busters this week and have given her space these last 3-4 days, started yoga yesterday, and have joined this board today in the hopes of getting my wife back! We’ve gone to MC (1 couples session so far, 2 individual for me, and we have couples session scheduled for next week). She doesn’t think the MC sessions will help her feel any different. I had planned on taking her out to dinner after the session and she has agreed. Is it too soon for that if she agreed?

I’m so lost and am unsure of what to do at this point. There’s been no contact with the OM in almost two weeks, which I assume is a good thing. Do I continue to ask her about this? Is she thinking about him/EA and not telling me? She said it was more of what he did than anything….She’s NOT A WAW, still wearing our rings, doesn’t want to leave the house, we sleep in the same bed, there’s no real hostility towards one another, but there’s also little conversation. She has an excellent moral code, but made a bad decision during her weakened state….I get that. Rather than husband/wife, we appear to be roommates or friends at this point….

I’m just so confused on how to approach this and would sincerely appreciate any guidance or direction at this point. The last few weeks I did what I thought was appropriate and that has had the opposite effect. She has the ‘I don’t know’ syndrome at the moment when I ask her what she wants. She wants happiness but can’t define it, she doesn’t know if happiness=staying together or separation/divorce. Every question ends in an ‘I don’t know’ answer….She’s suggested that she doesn’t know (at her present state) if staying together for the sake of the kids is enough, but doesn’t want to be the one who breaks up the family. She must be wrestling with so much that it hurts me too.

Individual space seems to be working at the moment, but is there such a thing as too much space??? Will she see that as my not wanting to engage her? Is the ILYBINILWY something that can be overcome with time and patience? Is it a decision based on my past inabilities to change, and if so, can she make the decision to love again as she sees positive changes??? I’ve made a number of observable changes that I think she’s noticed but has not said anything, which I expect her not to.

I’m just such a different person now (in the way I think, feel, and speak)….the person I think she’s always wanted (and deserved) all along, but is it too late? Am I too late??? She wants to give it a try to see if our marriage can work, but for how long??? How long do I have??? As you can see, I have so much going on in my head right now and would be much obliged for some help


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

If the day that you confronted her was the day she was supposed to meet up with the OM, then you have to assume that it possibly went physical. 

You are not going to get your wife back if she remains in contact with the OM. Do not trust what she tells you, she lost that right. AND do not feel guilty about snooping. You have EVERY RIGHT to know what's going on in your marriage. If you want to trust. Then trust, but verify.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Ok here's your other post. As I said same thing happend with hubby and I.. Do nothing for her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

First of all, do not act clingy, needy, mopey, sad, around her. That's not attractive to her. I'm thinking you might need to enact at least a mild 180 with her.

Right now you and your wife are in limbo. Something needs to be done to knock it one way or the other.

And don't blame yourself too much for this. While it's always healthy to take an honest inventory of yourself, I'm betting you're being too critical of yourself. Her "not being in love with you" thoughts are probably due to the exciting chemical (dopamine) rush she's getting from the OM. She feels "in love" with him. You're old news to her and not exciting in comparison to the feelings she's getting from Mr. Wonderful. In other words, it's not you, it's her.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

spying and exposure are not classic blunders, in fact I see that you did many things right so far

read the newbie link in my signature


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

i got the same speech. You need to not blame yourself, she has made this choice. My H, now, says in MC that he isn't sure why he said those words but that at the time he was confused. The same "I don't know" response. One week isn't very long...

Read Newbies post if you haven't already. How you act IS important and I think you need to understand what she is feeling now "fog" and how you need to react.

**sorry you are here BTW


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

do know that going NC and verifying NC (yes spying) is the best course

affairs create high amounts of dopamine and serotonin that make them addictive in nature, the WS needs to go through withdraw of sorts to start coming around. You need to stick your consequences and start showing that you are protecting the marriage


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Sorry, thought I was up on the abbreviations What's NC?

Thank you all so far. So it looks like my supposed 'blunders' were in fact the appropriate course of action:

1. I did my own detective work and uncovered and confronted W about the EA.

2. I exposed it for what it was and did so to her parents.

I'm waiting for the tipping point of when this will sway back in being able to salvage the marriage. I may need to be patient. When doing the 180, is it about going completely dark while maintaining civility at the same time?

Other pertinent details: me (34) and w (30). I support financially though my wife does have a work from home job. She enjoys being able to stay at home with kids and has also thought what a D would mean for her. I'm sure that's a motivator for her, but it shouldn't be the driver to reconcile.


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

You talk about making individual changes. The changes you need to make are the type of changes that make it obvious to her that you would be fine with life without her. Even though you're feeling desparate inside don't let that feeling show to her. Start working out, buy new clothes, get immersed in a hobby, be cheerful, confident, strong. There's a lot more info about all of this on this forum. Just don't be a pathetic wimp pining for the return of your wife!


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

NC = no contact


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

NC= no contact

read the newbie link and you will find the abbreviations and terms used here as well of lots of helpful info

I'm not positive what divorce busters is but if it's the same thing as that "plan A" thing I read then it I believe it's truly worthless and only serves to put a BS in limbo


the usual course of action that most of us here recommend-

1) get proof- 
check

2) confront and present consequences
a) present divorce if it will not end
b) expose to family and OMW or even work if necessary
-check

3) if R is an option then..
a) WS goes completely NC (we also recommend a NC letter)
b) WS is completely transparent and gives up passwords and allows you to snoop all you want
c) WS shows complete remorse and accept 100% of the blame for the affair, does the heavy lifting necessary and then afterwards you work on the marital problems together as that is 50/50
d) spend 10-15 hours a week of one on one time to rebond, hopefully you get some hysterical bonding as well

-partially there


look at the newbie thread for more details on remorse and such


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## Ingalls (Mar 7, 2012)

another thing (it just hit me) I did ALL THE CHANGES your talking about and it wasn't what my H needed. Not until I started being independent and so forth did he start changing his tune! Meaning you "think" your wife wants to hear all the feelings of I need you, want you, I will change, etc isn't good. It's weird how that works???? **What Cubby just said!!


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

afm0455 said:


> Sorry, thought I was up on the abbreviations What's NC?
> 
> Thank you all so far. So it looks like my supposed 'blunders' were in fact the appropriate course of action:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do a full 180 and go completely dark on this. Completely dark is too extreme at this point. Just a mild 180. I would just take the elements that make you appear attractive to her. Others here know more about this than I do.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

the 180 is for when you don't have a responsive spouse or a spouse who is not going NC etc

I think you need to lay down what you need first before doing the 180 and proceed from there


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks all! As of late, I've done a few things:

1. Ironically, lost so much weight from this that I'm down 2 pant sizes (34 to 32)
2. Started wearing the cologne again that I used to wear in college. She loved it.
3. Started yoga classes, which has been very helpful
4. Wait for her to call/chat me while I'm at work
5. No 'I love you' in almost a week

If you have other mild-180 recommendations that I can implement they are much appreciated.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

the weight loss is due to stress, seeing your doctor should be a good idea


a few more things to note-

many WS's will engage in trickle truth

IOW- they will only admit to what you can prove and lie about the rest and sometimes the truth comes out in drips and drabs

you need to tell her that you need all of the truth about the affair there and now even if she thinks it will hurt you or cause you to leave because if you find something else down the line then it's definitely over


I say this because right now you are basing the fact they had no PA on what she's told you about where she was on DDay, and the fact is you should get a STD test since you can't trust her right now


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Just a question on the nature of an EA....Whether it was for my benefit or hers, I've been rather dismissive about the whole thing. I told her that it was like a trip to disneyworld....when the trip is over, it's back to reality. 

She has said that the EA is perhaps deeper than I am willing to admit. Is there something to that and is there anything I can do? Again, there's been no contact in almost two weeks as I have monitored cellphone records, email, computer, etc...and at this point, she's more or less 'wondering' what the OM is up to.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Sigma is a poster here that can help with that, he is fWS that was balls deep in an EA and he said it took some time for those feelings to stop


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

My WS had a 4.5 year EA. I got the ILYBINILWY 3 years ago after DD#1. We entered MC for 6+ mos and he was secretly back with her the whole time.

This is a long haul task. She didn't get there overnight and she won't get out that fast either. (Edited to say, not that the affair will go on, but how long until she returns emotionally.) She was in the EA when she gave you that speech or I'll eat my socks.

She must end all contact to break the addiction. 
Have her take a his needs / her needs and love busters and 5 love languages questionnaires. This will show her you're serious about changing but most importantly help prevent from pushing her away.

But the main thing is, cold tough strong on the issue of having 2 men. It's divorce or nothing.

NC letter and expose the affair; sorry I'm on my mobile; have you researched the AP? Expose to his family it kills the fantasy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes, I know name, cell/home #, email, home address, even drove to his house, which my W thought I was crazy for doing.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

afm0455 said:


> Yes, I know name, cell/home #, email, home address, even drove to his house, which my W thought I was crazy for doing.


they are very protective of their APs. Don't tell her what you're doing. Don't tip your hand. It will help her keep the EA going. She is not herself; she is accustomed to lying.

Do you have texts or emails to show his wife or gf if he has one? Again sorry I can't read all that's been posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Remember, no crying, no begging, no pleading, she will find it repulsive. Take charge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Yes, I do have an email chain that spans two days. No idea if the OM has a gf/wife though.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

The longer your wife has no contact the more she will come out of the fog and be able to see things more clearly..in the meantime you should not be doing any of those nice little things for her that you would normally do. Pray that she sees that she realy is in love with you, not sure how long it will take..it's different for everyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

afm0455 said:


> Just a question on the nature of an EA....Whether it was for my benefit or hers, I've been rather dismissive about the whole thing. I told her that it was like a trip to disneyworld....when the trip is over, it's back to reality.
> 
> She has said that the EA is perhaps deeper than I am willing to admit. Is there something to that and is there anything I can do? Again, there's been no contact in almost two weeks as I have monitored cellphone records, email, computer, etc...and at this point, she's more or less 'wondering' what the OM is up to.


She's going through withdrawal. She experienced dopamine, a chemical. It affects the brain the same way a drug does.

I'll bet that she met the EA partner before she gave you the ILYBNILWY words. She didn't meet this guy after she gave you the speech.

You need to do some research about this stuff. Google Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life book and blog. It might save your marriage. Knowledge is your friend.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

afm0455 said:


> Just a question on the nature of an EA....Whether it was for my benefit or hers, I've been rather dismissive about the whole thing. I told her that it was like a trip to disneyworld....when the trip is over, it's back to reality.
> 
> She has said that the EA is perhaps deeper than I am willing to admit. Is there something to that and is there anything I can do? Again, there's been no contact in almost two weeks as I have monitored cellphone records, email, computer, etc...and at this point, she's more or less 'wondering' what the OM is up to.


EA can be so very much more than you think. Hopefully you caught your wife early. But the connection she felt with OM is real for her. That is why you got the ILYBNILY speech. She was becoming emotionally invested in him. He was starting to replace you, your marriage, and even your children in her mind. That is also why he is still on her mind. 

So, yeah, do not make light of an EA. They can develop quickly and get intense in a hurry. Most EAs lead to a PA given the opportunity. 

You need to keep your guard up as far as watching all her communication. It is very common for a WS to fall off the wagon and communicate with OM even after promising not to. And most often, the reason given when caught is "I just wanted to see how he was doing - nothing more" - which is BS. They want to feed the addiction to OM.


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

I believe I did catch it early on before it was allowed to persist over time, and I think she's in a period of withdrawal and limbo at this point. The more I found out, the guiltier she was about the whole thing. My thinking on this is that she was more embarrassed about being caught than feeling guilty. It was only when I threw her out after uncovering a scheduled meeting did she come to her senses and fess up all the details. 

Since that time (3/31 to be exact), there's been no incoming/outgoing contact that I am aware of. She's adamant that there are no other details besides a 2hr conversation and a few text/emails. I told her if any additional details come up, I'm gone. 

Thanks again to everyone, and please keep the suggestions/insight/comments coming! They are incredibly helpful.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I don't believe you know the truth. She has only admitted to what you've found out so far. For her to be as deep in the emotional affair as you describe, there had to be more than one 2-hour conversation and a couple of texts/emails. Facebook messages? Using a friend's phone? Using a phone/app that doesn't have a call log? Not saying she was in the emotional affair all that deep, but still deeper than would be normal given the very limited contact you describe.

Also, unless you are with her 24/7, there is no way you can 100% know she is not still in contact. She could have a prepaid phone or even visit a friend's house and call him from there.

You have to judge her by her actions until she proves herself. Don't pay too much attention to her words unless they ring true with her actions.

You have to fix what you did wrong in the relationship, but there is much truth to people being attracted to what they fear they may lose. The more she feels you are confident and can move on without her and don't care about losing her, the more she will fear losing you.

Financial considerations and the fact that you caught the emotional affair before she felt the other man was committed to her probably are the biggest reasons for her deciding to work on the marriage. In her mind, she would love the opportunity to explore what could be with the other man while still keeping you just in case. She doesn't want to be left without financial support and without a man.

Be vigilant, monitor the communication devices and accounts you know about, but don't ask anymore about the other man, just do it. Act confident, happy and show no weakness. Be fun to be around. Confident and funny. Like you want to share a life with her, but you'll be fine moving on without her, too. Look your best at all times. Keep an eye out for other ways she may try to contact him.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I personally believe she is still in contact with him. How did they meet? Do they work together or see each other on a regular basis? TDSC60 is right. They were already in an affair before she gave you the ILYBINILWY speech. You also don't know it didn't get physical, especially if he's local.

The best way to make sure that the affair is over is to find out if the OM has a gf or a wife and expose it. Most of the time they will throw their AP under the bus to save their relationship. If he does that your wife will probably not see him in a positive light. You should find out this information if you can.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

My thought is she's going thru a midlife crisis and will eventually come back to reality but like I said you must stop doing those nice things u usually do...also she needs consequences
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> My thought is she's going thru a midlife crisis and will eventually come back to reality but like I said you must stop doing those nice things u usually do...also she needs consequences
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband kept telling me I needed to have consequences when I was falling off the wagon with the whole NC thing. I felt like the inner torture was consequence enough! What would you consider consequences?


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

I'd leave, no questions if I found something out at this point. Something where she tried to make contact again. No bluff about it, and I think she realizes it. I threw her out last time when she initially lied 2.5 weeks ago and I have no problems with doing it again.

I've done things these last two years to get us to this point...that I realize. I'm awake now and am working on remedying past transgressions....going to MC, reading self-help, but I'm no doormat. I will do anything to keep my family in tact.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Well mine was stop contacting him or get out..I refused to stop talking to the OM and left with nothing..When I came in to get my things he was not nice to me, told the kids I left all of them for the OM..pretty much made me feel unwelcome here at home. Gotta do what you gotta do so that she don't get her cake and eat it too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> Well mine was stop contacting him or get out..I refused to stop talking to the OM and left with nothing..When I came in to get my things he was not nice to me, told the kids I left all of them for the OM..pretty much made me feel unwelcome here at home. Gotta do what you gotta do so that she don't get her cake and eat it too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah my husband never did that because he wanted me to stay to comfort him but that didnt really work well either. :/


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## Hunger (Mar 26, 2012)

My apologies for getting off track.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Afm..good but have her leave..she's the WS
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

*Around the same time she said ‘ILYBINILWY’ she also made an ‘emotional connection’ with someone. *

ILYBINILWY almost always comes after the emotional affair is well under way. Many times after it's gone physical.

Many women, I think most, are one-man women. They focus on one guy at a time. When they make a connection with one guy, they turn it off for the other guy. Right now, you may be in the role of the other guy, the one who she's turned it off for.

*I'd leave, no questions if I found something out at this point. Something where she tried to make contact again. No bluff about it, and I think she realizes it. I threw her out last time when she initially lied 2.5 weeks ago and I have no problems with doing it again.

I've done things these last two years to get us to this point...that I realize. I'm awake now and am working on remedying past transgressions....going to MC, reading self-help, but I'm no doormat.*

This is the right attitude to have. Let her know you are fixing yourself and working on the marriage, but you won't tolerate infidelity.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This is all good, but why should you leave? Your not the cheater. Tell her if she goes underground and contacts him again, she will pack her bags and leave for good. No more mulligans. You already showed her grace once. 

If I were you I would make it my mission in life to find out if the OM is married and tell his wife or girlfriend what a sleazeballhe is. Make this your hobby for the next two weeks, and of course do not tell the sweet little wifey what you are doing. She might cry and say your being mean...sniff, sniff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Its the perfect time for postnuptial agreement.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

AFM,

Try not to freak out over this. Just read it without emotion and think about it.



afm0455 said:


> Let me say that I try to be very active around the house, cleaning when necessary, helping with the kids, etc…, so it’s not that.


It never is.



afm0455 said:


> Her needs are more attention, listening, understanding how she feels...


Right. However, this is only appealing from a new guy. She has a biological agenda. If it's just you providing it, the appeal is limited.



afm0455 said:


> Around the same time she said ‘ILYBINILWY’ she also made an ‘emotional connection’ with someone.


As has been pointed out above, the connection (emotional and/or physical) preceded ILYBINILWY.



afm0455 said:


> There was no PA.


Says who?



afm0455 said:


> I found out beforehand and confronted her about it and during a heated argument asked that she leave the house, not come back, and that I was done with our relationship.


This was a stroke of brilliance on your part. Very well done.



afm0455 said:


> I have made all of the classic blunders these last few weeks: snooping, lying about the snooping and getting caught, told her parents about the EA and what was going on (only b/c I didn’t have anyone else to talk to about it),


No blunders there, brother. All those are direct hits. Just don't lie about your intelligence operations, don't advertise them either. Continue black ops. VAR her car and your bedroom. She may have an affair phone.



afm0455 said:


> confronting, pleading, I’ve suffocated her with articles, website, books I’m reading,


These above are are truly the classic blunders. That's about this best way to repel a woman I know of. Seducers don't use these tactics to build attraction with married women.



afm0455 said:


> found out the OMs cell/home #, email, home address, etc… and told wife what I know about him


This week's mission is to find his woman and expose the OM. Beowulf already asked how they know each other. What's the answer? Did they meet on AM?



afm0455 said:


> I purchased Divorce Busters this week and have given her space these last 3-4 days, started yoga yesterday, and have joined this board today in the hopes of getting my wife back!


The last one was a good move. Quit the yoga, tomorrow. Yoga's original purpose was foreplay to prepare women for tantric sex by increasing blood flow to the vagina and pudenda. I'm not joking. You're a man, you need to start bodybuilding. Heavy leg press and squats will raise your testosterone through the roof. Other women will start giving you the eye right in front of your wife. She needs to see that. Your goal is to be the living clone of Michaelangelo's David. Yoga? This may be part of your problem.



afm0455 said:


> She doesn’t think the MC sessions will help her feel any different.


She's correct.



afm0455 said:


> Rather than husband/wife, we appear to be roommates or friends at this point….


You eased up too much on the pressure after booting her. She should be on all fours trying to get your attention.



afm0455 said:


> I’m just so confused on how to approach this ... She has the ‘I don’t know’ syndrome at the moment when I ask her what she wants. She wants happiness but can’t define it,


Her testosterone is ramping up at age 30. She's programmed to be receptive and even aggressive toward new men so that all her genes aren't in your basket. As somebody already said, go to Athol Kay's site and buy his book and read it tonight. After that, if you're up to taking the red pill undiluted, got to Chateau Hartiste and drink it straight.



afm0455 said:


> Is it a decision based on my past inabilities to change, and if so, can she make the decision to love again as she sees positive changes???


She said *she loves you*, almost as much as she loves her kids. Is that not good enough? "IN LOVE" is sexual attraction and that's not a decision. You are sexually repellent to her, because she's turned you off due to the lack of tingle she associates with old boring you and she's turned on to the prospect of getting some fresh essence from another guy. This is limbic, not cortex. She'll deny it, as they all do.



afm0455 said:


> I’ve made a number of observable changes that I think she’s noticed but has not said anything, which I expect her not to. I’m just such a different person now (in the way I think, feel, and speak)….the person I think she’s always wanted (and deserved) all along, but is it too late?


What she wants right now is the kind of man who's willing to seduce and bed another man's wife. You're not a worthy sexual partner, in her opinion. She's looking for new sperm and morals smashing, quim quivering excitement. You can't get that from a husband. Even the Bible says marriage sex is okay. Just understand that she will swear up and down it's not like this. It's limbic, not cortex.



afm0455 said:


> Other pertinent details: me (34) and w (30).


Age 30. She's a real stereotype. You might want to look for a book called "Women's Infidelity." 

Cubby, I think, already said to drop some coin on a new very up to date wardrobe, change your haircut, etc. Get around the web and educate yourself on current male fashion. Alternatively, get a hog and a black leather jacket.

I'm not joking about the bodybuilding. Do all that. 3X a week, 30-60 minutes in a rational program will completely change your physique in 3-6 months, with visible improvements in 4 weeks. Look for a book on Amazon called "The New High Intensity Training." A less effective measure, but much more profound than yoga, is to take up martial arts. That sends its own message to your wife. 

Seriously, ditch the yoga. Don't tell your wife why or even that you're doing any of this.

Why are you doing it? Women are attracted to men who are aloof, men who have options, men who have their pick of the women. Your wife sees you as none of the above. Start acting like a guy with options.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Good stuff Machiavelli. Good stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You might try spokeo.com for more info on POSOM. Good luck

More books "His Needs Her Needs", "Married Man Sex Life"

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.

No More Mr. Nice Guy

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


What kind of phone does she use, you may be able to read deleted texts.


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks all for the continued support. After poking and prodding last night, W mentioned the possibility that she 'could' love him, having regular thoughts about him, but is still adamant about not acting on it. Is the fact that she hasn't acted on it (or so she tells me) enough at this point? She says she's trying and that I'm being impractical and not patient about this???? WTF??? This is still infidelity isn't it??? 

With W's feelings the way that are at present, I cannot see anyway back to reconciliation....am I wrong here? 

Purchased new clothes today, purchased a weight set, purchased Athol Kaye book....all of which felt great btw!!! and am considering meeting with an attorney next week. Any thoughts on this? Too soon to do so? Do I do it discreetly and not share the meeting or use it as possible leverage. She's a SAHM who (at present) is financially dependent on me.

Is the preferred approach 'business as usual' as far as life goes for me.....don't approach her with indifference, be polite, but not an chump.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I think there are outlines in the book to follow.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Time will tell, by her actions she should be feeling remorseful about it..yes cheating is cheating, so it didnt go physical..I think I said the same thing at first but now that I've had no contact with the other man for almost 3 months, my thinking is clearer, it was an emotional affair but that is still an affair and still hurt my hubby very bad. Your wife should be showing u her love and support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

If she depends on you and isn't even sure about the OM she's in for a rough ride. Affair's almost always don't survive, it'll still be hard for her even with alimony. She needs to understand this but seems like she's in deep fog.

Getting legal advice asap is always good, technically you're not starting the divorce but her being served might be the last wake up call for her.

I would say ignoring her would push her more towards the OM. Start working out, wearing new clothes, always having smile on your face(fake it if you have to), but show her you can make it easily without her, even find better upgrades then her, etc.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

As of yesterday, you said your wife told you she is not in love with you. That is not going to change overnight. She has to deal with the regular problems of real life with you. She only sees "happily ever after" and a fairy tale ending when she thinks of the other man. Right now, she still has feelings for the other man, she thinks it's love, and somewhere inside her she is thinking that they may yet have a chance to someday be together and live happily ever after. Wives in emotional affairs believe in "happily ever after" with the other man.

Continued no contact will snap her out of her feelings for the other man.

It will help to have her send a handwritten no contact letter to the other man saying how horribly ashamed she is of her behavior, how terrible she feels about risking her husand and her family, which she values above all else, and if he ever tries to contact her again, she will file harassment charges against him. She writes it, you approve and mail it. This act will have a psychological effect on both you and your wife. It will help you heal if she is willing to do this. It will help her to get past her feelings for the other man and put him in the past. 

It would help for her to see the other man as a very flawed person. The kind of person who would engage in an adulterous affair with a married woman with children is a very flawed person. Why can't your wife see that? It's one of the great mysteries of cheaters. You can bring this up to her and ask her what she thinks of your assessment. It will give you some insight into where she stands right now and maybe could plant a seed in her mind that other man really is not what she thinks he is.

To her, they are star-crossed lovers who were destined to be together, if only they had met earlier in life and not made the mistake of settling for someone who is not "the one." Now, you very well may be "the one," she may have seen you that way at one time and may see you that way again, but you've been temporarily replaced by Mr. Other Man Star-Crossed Soulmate Who Has No Flaws.

One thing that will really help your wife snap out of it and see the other man for the POS he really is if he throws her under the bus. You should if at all possible expose the affair to his wife or girlfriend. Do not tell your wife you are doing this. You will find out fast if your wife still is in contact as she will find out from the other man quickly and be very angry with you.

If she is committing to the marriage and maintaining no contact, you should try to work on the marriage with her. This means resuming normal sexual relations and spending time together. If you do this, and she remains in no contact with the other man, her feelings for the other man will fade.

No contact includes no looking at his profile on facebook or other social media sites.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

_W mentioned the possibility that she 'could' love him, *having regular thoughts about him*, but is still adamant about not acting on it. Is the fact that she hasn't acted on it (or so she tells me) enough at this point? She says she's trying and that I'm being impractical and not patient about this???? WTF??? This is still infidelity isn't it??? _

This is not infidelity, this is trying to get over infidelity and work on the marriage (if true about maintaining no contact). She should be trying not to think about the other man. She must discipline herself to not think about the other man, when she starts to, she must try to switch her thoughts to something else.

She also should be actively working on the marriage with you, spending time together, having sex, resuming a normal married life. She should be apologizing to you for the affair, telling you how sorry she is for it and how willing she is to try to work on the marriage with you. If she can't do this, then she is not committed to the marriage and you should continue to pursue divorce.

It is possible that she has agreed to try to work it out with you because she is afraid of losing her financial stability but still secretly is thinking she can have a future with the other man. That's why writing the no contact letter and exposing to the other man's wife/girlfriend are important.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I would do a light 180 on her (see the link below if you have not already seen it) and stay frosty with her. No I love yous or touchy feely stuff. That's like garlic to a vampire with a wayward. Just ask CantSitStill or Hunger. Your wife has to know clearly that she is teetering on the edge of expulsion from the home. Its awful to say, but you almost have to treat her like a convict for a while. You should give her no marital priveleges until she starts to show true remorse, and that could take weeks or even months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Posse (Jan 30, 2012)

I just posted this in another thread, but it is appropriate here along with all the other advice:

Blog | Married Man Sex Life 

Read it in its entirety. Study Oneitis hard. It will seem alien to you at first but it will eventually sink in.

Prior to the affair (and that is what it is), you were Beta. A Nice Guy. That is not a good thing.

When you found out about the affair, you went Alpha on her. That was good.

A marriage is two people. She tried to make it three. That is a nonstarter.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Are you ok? Need an update please
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Update from the last few days as I have been dealing with stuff on the home front....

BOMBSHELL hit yesterday....found wife at a park with OM (along with my 1.5 year old daughter). I'm crushed, betrayed, devastating, and more importantly, appalled that my youngest child was brought into this. Confronted OM and told him to stay the F**K away from my family Mother F**cker. Took everything not to beat him with a crowbar. 

Couldn't gauge complete reaction, but W didn't seem remorseful or filled with grief. Seemed more shocked at getting caught. Perhaps it was shock and that will all set in today. 

I'm tempted to blow the roof off of this thing and am looking for suggestions. I called her parents yesterday, which W already knows I did this. Do I call OM parents? Work #? Don't have it, but wish I did. Are my reactions justified? Exactly how far to I go with this and is it only to fulfill my own need for retribution? She had a 'friend' facilitate the meetup on Sunday. Does she feel my wrath as well? W should live in basement until we figure things out, correct?

I have an individual MC session tonight that W wants to attend....for what? I really like my therapist...he was supportive of my feelings and endorsed calling OM, etc....Nice guy and he's been through a similar situation and could empathize.

Advice on how to move forward is appreciated.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

well it explains why she hasn't come out of the fog, she's still knee deep in the affair

get your lawyer moving on the papers


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

afm0455 said:


> BOMBSHELL hit yesterday....found wife at a park with OM (along with my 1.5 year old daughter). I'm crushed, betrayed, devastating, and more importantly, appalled that my youngest child was brought into this.


So now she broke NC. This EA is far deeper than you realize, and NOT just the result of some 2-3 hour phone conversation and a few emails/texts. This is has probably gone on longer than you know of and probably even a PA if she's willing to do this and bring your kid into this. You've been Trickle Truthed buddy. Like iHeart said, she didn't get this far overnight. Remember when on DDay you told her to leave, then she came back later that night? Very often on DDay, a WW will run immediately to her OM and bang him for emotional comfort. Sorry to put that in your head, but that is the normal reaction.










Yes, you may have her KNOWN passwords, but she may have secret email accounts, maybe even a secret affair phone that you don't know of. Did you have keyloggers installed? How about a VAR in her car?



afm0455 said:


> Confronted OM and told him to stay the F**K away from my family Mother F**cker. Took everything not to beat him with a crowbar.


Good thing that you didn't assault him. But most of your anger should be reserved for your WW. She is the one who broke NC. She is the one who brought your young child into this. She is the one who secretly met up with him.



afm0455 said:


> Couldn't gauge complete reaction, but W didn't seem remorseful or filled with grief. Seemed more shocked at getting caught. Perhaps it was shock and that will all set in today.


No remorse, she's nowhere even near ready to end the affair, much less R. 



afm0455 said:


> I'm tempted to blow the roof off of this thing and am looking for suggestions. I called her parents yesterday, which W already knows I did this. Do I call OM parents? Work #? Don't have it, but wish I did. Are my reactions justified? Exactly how far to I go with this and is it only to fulfill my own need for retribution?


Its not about revenge. It's about exposing the affair and making it as uncomfortable for the APs as possible. Affairs rarely survive under the light of day. IF the OM as a GF or W, you need to expose it to her. Find out.



afm0455 said:


> She had a 'friend' facilitate the meetup on Sunday. Does she feel my wrath as well? W should live in basement until we figure things out, correct?


Yes, very often, the WW has a Toxic Friend (TF) that facilitates, and/or enables the affair. NC must extend to this TF as well, and must be out of your lives totally if R is to happen. Your WW should definitely stay in the basement at the very least. That way she cannot manipulate you with sex or anything remotely like that.



afm0455 said:


> I have an individual MC session tonight that W wants to attend....for what?


Yes, for what? She has no business going to your IC session. In fact, if you're in MC, cancel all the appointments. MC is basically useless while she's in the fog. The affair has to be over and she has to be willing to work on the marriage 100 percent for MC to be effective.

You want to kick her out of the fog? Then she MUST feel the repercussions about the affair. Do the 180. Continue to investigate how far this has gone. Lawyer up and file for D. D takes so long in most states that you can ALWAYS postpone or halt the process if your WW shows true remorse. She needs to feel the reality of her decision. Destroy the fantasy of the affair!


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Issue her with D papers, let the OM take care of her.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Go read lordmayhem's latest post 10 times before you make any more decisions.



Cheaters lie. It should be memorialized in bronze somewhere. It is a mind-blowing concept when you first stumble upon it. It flies in the face of why you would EVER get married to ANYONE. But there it is.

Of course your reaction was totally natural, especially concerning your child. My WS also used our kids (ages 2 and 3 at the time) as a "cover" to spend time with his AP. She had a son their age and he took our kids to his birthday party, tried to get her to go to a monster truck show, and probably some other times (that I really should ask him about...note to self). This was all pre-DD#1. I've posted this before, if I want to go instantly to a white-hot rage I think about her existing within a mile of my kids.

So yes, it's natural to be furious at this. But when it comes to breaking up an affair, you have to be cold, not hot. You cannot let your emotions take over even though they are so powerful at this time. You must use your brain and exercise full restraint.

The fact that she is not begging for the marriage right now is a very bad sign. I can only speak from my experience; my WS got down on his knees and said I was the only one for him despite a years-long EA. If he had not done that, I still would have exposed the affair to the OWH, told my H's parents, and then sadly started divorce proceedings.


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## naperken (Feb 21, 2012)

I agree with most everything said here.

First, when you get the 'ILYBINILWY' speech, what she's actually saying is she oxytocins you but doesn't dopamine you. She will rewrite history to rationalize why these horrible things she's doing to you and her family are totally acceptable. She's deep in an addiction and the only thing that will eventually bring her out is true no contact 

There is no harm in lawyer-in up and starting divorce proceedings. That will often shake them back to reality, which she needs often. Be aware that the majority of divorce filings never go to conclusion.

It's a pretty forgone that this is a PA and her bringing the daughter along is a fine example of the rationalization hamster running at ludicrous speed. It's already been said twice, but I can't stress it enough... read Athol's Married Man Sex Life Primer and visit his blog. It quite literally saved my marriage.


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

An update that I'd like to share and see if I perhaps pushed her in this direction all along.

The subject of "I think I could love him' came up last weekend as I mentioned. Upon hearing this, I told her between Saturday/Sunday that I thought I was done and didn't feel I could work on the R anymore. I backtracked Sunday night telling her that it was hearing the word 'could love' that hurt and prompted my response. She tells me she closed herself off at hearing that I was done and a situation presented itself on Sunday to meet with OM yesterday and she took it. 

Am I at fault for the W's transgressions? Her choice, her decision, right, or did my words push her that way?


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

No, your wife crossed the line, sickening she had your child with her, this is all on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

NO, you didn't push her to OM, if you said you are done, then if she wanted the marriage to survive and she need a family then she should have shown you remorse and done everything to gain your trust back, not taking this as an opportunity to fuc*k OM.

Show her the door and send her out of your family. Issue her with D papers as soon as possible. Expose the affair to all the peoples concerned.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

afm0455 said:


> An update that I'd like to share and see if I perhaps pushed her in this direction all along.
> 
> The subject of "I think I could love him' came up last weekend as I mentioned. Upon hearing this, I told her between Saturday/Sunday that I thought I was done and didn't feel I could work on the R anymore. I backtracked Sunday night telling her that it was hearing the word 'could love' that hurt and prompted my response. She tells me she closed herself off at hearing that I was done and a situation presented itself on Sunday to meet with OM yesterday and she took it.
> 
> Am I at fault for the W's transgressions? Her choice, her decision, right, or did my words push her that way?


You're going to hear this all day today: No, you're NOT responsible for this. She used that to justify her meeting him. You did NOT push her. This is an indicator of how truly deep she's in the affair. *A truly remorseful spouse will do ANYTHING to help save the marriage, especially upon hearing those words from you*. No remorse, only guilt from getting caught. 

*So STOP taking responsibility for her affair*.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

so whenever something bad happens she will run to OM?

nope, not your fault


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

And *STOP* talking about the affair with her, *do the 180 *already. You're just going to hear more blameshifting at this point in time.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

afm0455, seeing a MC is a waste of precious funds in your case. You'll need that money to pay child support and maybe even alimony in order to keep you soon to be ex and her stud comfortable until your child is of age.
If you want someplace to go where you will be agreed with concerning her treatment of you, you'll find no better place than here.
Good luck


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

afm0455, you cannot think this way. It is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Again, all I can tell you is my perspective. To expand on my post from the last page, my husband didn't go down on his knees and beg for his marriage at first. I had to catch him twice before that happened, and a lot of time went by in between. He was in a powerful hormonal infatuation with his AP. To see how he hardly thinks about his lifelong 'soulmate' now would make you gasp in disbelief at the change. Only physical / chemical changes in the brain can adequately explain all of this behavior.

Both partners are responsible for what they bring to, and put in, the marriage. Both partners are responsible for adequately communicating their needs (did she do this--the answer seems like a big no). But adults are responsible for ALL of their choices--you TOLD her how hurt you were, and what did she do? She took your precious child and met up with the guy again. This is called a STAB IN THE BACK.

She will have to have no contact with this man for a very long time before she will not be bonded / drawn to him as strongly as she is now. That's the bottom line. And then, as has already been said several times, she has to show that she is truly sorry and comprehending the pain she has caused you and that she is working on whatever motivated her to seek such a poor choice to HER problems. 

I'm not saying that eventually you won't need to examine whatever you put in the marriage and re-evaluate yourself. But right NOW, she has EXITED your marriage; there IS no marriage to work on as long as she is in this affair.

We don't see any signs, yet, that she is serious about your marriage. We're talking ACTIONS here. Words are just tools for WSs to carry on their affairs, so ignore EVERYTHING that she says. At the stage she is at, LYING has become a way of life. And that includes blaming you for her childish choices.

OK, ready for this lesson again?

it came out of her mouth = it is a lie

and one more homework assignment. Have you been reading threads here on TAM? You need to understand that the reason vets here can predict what she will do is NOT because they have magical powers of ESP. It's because cheaters follow highly predictable courses of action. You need to use that to your advantage. That's the power of being human: LEARN FROM THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS!!


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Thank you all, and yes....I've spent some time reading the TAM threads and am appreciative of the advice. 

-Brief update on my path to implode the EA....I contacted the OMs parents today and spoke to the father. Felt vindictive, but good. I'll may try back again later today.


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

-another update to share...adrenaline juices are still flowing from this!!!!

Had the chance to finally pick up where I left off and called OM today. Felt liberating and that a heavy weight has been lifted from my shoulders. Asked OM if his father gave him my message...answered yes. Told him to stay the f**k away from my family and that i would stay away from his. Told him that i learned more about him than he cared to know. Told f**cker not to test my resolve and that if he attempted contact in any way, I'd hunt him down at work and split his GD head open. Going to my therapist to share in the good news...for me, this is considered a good day.

Any other thoughts/suggestions on how to continue 180'ing, please send my way. Thanks all for the support!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Questions?

-do I tell the W about this or let it unravel naturally?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

afm0455 said:


> Questions?
> 
> -do I tell the W about this or let it unravel naturally?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, sooner or later the OM will throw your wife under the bus. Just wait for your wife to be angry at you soon.

Also never send threatening texts/emails, maybe in person but avoid it at all costs.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I would recommend not contacting him again because he can get a police report against you for harassment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

afm0455 said:


> An update that I'd like to share and see if I perhaps pushed her in this direction all along.
> 
> The subject of "I think I could love him' came up last weekend as I mentioned. Upon hearing this, I told her between Saturday/Sunday that I thought I was done and didn't feel I could work on the R anymore. I backtracked Sunday night telling her that it was hearing the word 'could love' that hurt and prompted my response. She tells me she closed herself off at hearing that I was done and a situation presented itself on Sunday to meet with OM yesterday and she took it.
> 
> Am I at fault for the W's transgressions? Her choice, her decision, right, or did my words push her that way?


But what is she acting like now


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow you remind me so much of my husband. He did have words with the OM and still talks about wanting to smash his skull in.. even tho it is my fault too he has soo much anger twords the OM built up I hope he never sees him face to face because I know for sure he'd beat the crap outa him. He's not thinking about the consequences at all...jail, court costs, loss of work..it's not worth it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you got a god on her car and a var in it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

I got one real STRONG suggestion for you---STAY THE F*CK AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE'S LOVER

He could have you jailed for assault right now------I don't give a sh*t that he is messing with your wife----YOUR BEEF IS WITH YOUR WIFE

For starters, I would be all over her, for taking a small child, your child to see some guy---that she in all honesty KNOW'S NOTHING ABOUT, and who probably really only wants to get in her pants---this guy could be who knows what---she really doesn't know what he is into/about!!!!!

You need to go very HARSH right now

Take away her CC's, all money goes in an acct., with your name only on it---put GPS in car, but make sure she can only take car, for family business, and errands---AND NOTHING ELSE

Give her no money----you buy the groceries, you buy whatever is needed for the kids----and you tell her straight out (if you wanna R)--this ends YESTERDAY

I understand you need her to take care of the kids, and that you have to work---but you let her no in no uncertain terms---IF SHE EVER PUTS YOUR KIDS IN HARMS WAY AGAIN---she is gone for good, right then and there

Tell her this---since she is so hot for her lover, tell her fine---you want him--get the he*l out and go to him---but if you do, you will not be allowed back in the family, and you will consider her to have left the family, and will act accordingly, as to her now having left the home---make sure she understands to take her belongings with her.

SHE DOESN'T LOVE THIS GUY---SHE IS INFATUATED---

Let her know in no uncertain terms-----that if she leaves you will not provide ONE PENNY for her life support---until a judge orders it, at a D. hearing

You need to yank her out of her trip to DISNEYLAND!!!!!!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

*I told her if any additional details come up, I'm gone. *

I guess she was correct in her assumption that, by seeing the other man, there would be no consequences.

Do not issue any more ultimatums unless you intend to act on them.

The reason your wife was so "foggy" after three weeks of supposed no-contact was that your wife was in contact with the other man all along, either directly, or indirectly through her toxic friend.

*Now your wife has to get rid of the toxic friend forever and have no contact with her, too.*
Your wife lied about how often she had been in contact with the other man when you first found out. She admitted only to what you found.

She lied about no contact. She omitted telling you that her toxic friend was involved in this with her. That is a lie of omission. At this point, you can't believe anything she says. You can only trust her actions.

*Where did she go when she left after you first confronted her? * Is it possible she went to see the other man. Almost all initial confrontations end with an argument and the cheater storming out of the house to go see their affair partner. *Can you rule out that your wife had sex with the other man?*
You are stumbling through this, mostly doing the right things, but the one big mistake you are making is putting too much stock in thinking that you "nipped it in the bud." It is apparent now that you did not nip it in the bud. Start assuming that your wife has been in contact with the other man for much longer than you think, that it has become physical and, most of all, that your wife is maintaining contact with the other man.

Your exposing the affair to the other man's family was good. Did you go back to your wife's parents and let them know that your wife was so enamored of the other man that she even put her child, their grandchild, at risk by bringing the child to see the other man?

*Do not tell your wife about the exposure to the other man. Let her know you told her parents where she brought their grandchild*. If she is in contact with the other man, she will find out and you will know when she does.

Do not put up with her "I don't now what i want" for long. The usual cheater's script, which your wife has followed so far to a T, is that they won't recommit to the marriage until the affair is blown up and the faithful spouse has taken steps to divorce. You threatened it if anything else happened, but you did not follow through on your threat.

The fact that she did not come crying and blubbering back to you on the initial confrontation is not a good sign. The "I don't know what I want" state that she is in now could go on for months or even years. You must accept that your marriage may end anyway, no matter what you do. That being the case, do not let the current limbo state last more than a few days. *Tell her if she can't make up her mind after all your years together, what you've been through, your vows, then you will file for divorce*. Then, if she does not recommit, do it. You can always stop it later if she decides to work on the marriage.

The happiness she seeks is sex and romance with the other man, and money and a stable baby daddy from you. Her plan was to have both by cheating on you behind your back.

*Have you asked her to handwrite a "no contact" letter to the other man*, stating that she is ashamed of her behavior, sorry for risking her marriage and her family and the love of her wonderful husband, and telling him not to contact her or she will file charges against him for harassment? She gives it to you and you mail it. This will make you feel better and help her to get out of the fog.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

did she say how they arranged to meet if they was NC ?? Come on man you on a roll, tell her you want her to take a polygraph, and mental health exam too see if she is crazy, cause why else would she endanger your child for someone she only talked to for 2 or 3 hrs. and say she could love him. do you see how fk that sounds. You only have a small part of the truth.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> *I told her if any additional details come up, I'm gone. *
> 
> I guess she was correct in her assumption that, by seeing the other man, there would be no consequences.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

You came to the forum for a reason. You wanted to hear from other people who have gone through this. You wanted a sympathetic ear.

You have that here.

Now don't make the stupid mistake of thinking you can re-invent the wheel on how to break up an affair. 

I sense from your recent posts that you're only half-listening, that what you really want is validation from this forum of what YOU are choosing to do as you run off half-****ed. If you are ignoring the advice here, which has been HARD-EARNED, you are not going to get what you came for.


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## afm0455 (Apr 13, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> *I told her if any additional details come up, I'm gone. *
> 
> I guess she was correct in her assumption that, by seeing the other man, there would be no consequences.
> 
> ...


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

The reason I was so hard on you is because of mistakes I made myself. I didn't know about this forum. I had to blunder about in the dark for years. So it's painful to watch someone who actually has a shot of cutting that out not listening to the advice that is pretty cut and dried.

There are various reasons you want to cling to the 'old' way of doing things.

One is that you cannot believe that the person who swore to forever be your life partner could be bonded to someone else.

That the person who lovingly carried your child, could turn around and endanger that child.

So now you see, with your own two eyes, that her brain has physically changed. This is hard science that has been brought to bear on the chemical / hormonal reward system that affects the brains of cheaters.

It is biological, and that explains behavior that you could never have imagined in 1000 years.

It is a fantasy. It is escapist. So first you DESTROY the fantasy. Not destroy her, or her affair partner. The FANTASY.

Then you see what is left: either a remorseful spouse who wants to return to the marriage and work on it like an adult, or a spouse who, for whatever reason, wants to leave her old life entirely behind. But either way, you are doing the right thing: laying the groundwork for setting the best example for your child of how GROWNUPS behave. And living your life in truth.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

*I asked her to do this....Is it a normal response for the W to object and state that she would be doing it for just me and they would be my words and not hers? I want to have to letters drafted.....one for the OM and one for the TF.*

It is normal for the cheater to angrily refuse to write the no contact letter if they still want to continue the affair. It is normal for the cheater to eagerly and enthusiastically write the no contact letter if they want to save the marriage. Your wife is sitting on the fence. She would love to explore the romantic possibilities with this new man she has a connection with who give her butterflies in the stomach, but she she needs you financially and she doesn't want to be known as a cheater, she doesn't see herself that way. The latter is why she's blaming you, because in her mind you had to be really bad for someone as loyal and devoted to marriage as her to cheat.

You have to be willing to lose your marriage in order to save it. My advice if you want to save your marriage:

Have a talk with your wife. Tell her how she reacts in the next 30 minutes may decide whether or not you will be divorced. Tell her you love her, you have always loved her, you want to improve as a husband and you want to improve your marriage. Tell her you are willing to work on your problems and the marriage if she is willing to work on hers. Tell her that she had faults and you had faults and you're not going to figure out whose faults were more the cause of your bad marriage. Tell her having an affair is not the correct way to work on your marital problems and that she should have enough respect for you after all you've done and been through together to at least be honest with you, and, if she wants a divorce, fine, but cheating and lying is unacceptable. She should respect her vows and wait until you're divorced before starting up with another man.

Tell her you do not plan to continue one more hour in the current situation. Tell her she must immediately choose you over the other man and commit to the marriage in the next 30 minutes or you will file for divorce. Tell her you absolutely demand her fidelity in the marriage or you do not want to be married. Tell her she must tell you the entire truth of her affair with the other man, that all contact with other man must cease immediately and forever, no one last message or meeting for closure, and that if the other man attempts to contact her in any way in the future she must tell you about it immediately, if you find out before she tells you, you will file for divorce, if you find out she lied in any way about the details of her affair with the other man in the future, you will file for divorce, this is her one last chance to come clean.

Tell her she must give you access to all her communication devices, accounts, and passwords, and account for her whereabouts 24/7 until trust can be re-established.

Tell her she needs to handwrite a no contact letter to the other man and the toxic friend stating that she is horribly ashamed of her behavior, that she is terribly sorry for risking the loss of her marriage, family, and husband, and that the other man/toxic friend should never contact her again, if they do she will file charges against them for harassment. 

If she does not want to write the letter because she feels it is not true, ask her what part of it is not true? She is not ashamed of cheating? She is not sorry for risking losing her marriage? She does not want to end contact with the other man/toxic friend? If the answer is yes to any of these questions, file for divorce. In this case, your wife prefers the other man to you. She would leave you for him immediately except for one or more of the following reasons: She has a self-image of herself as someone who is not a cheater, she doesn't want to be known as a divorced cheater, she needs you financially, she's afraid the other man will dump her and she will be left with no one.

Your marriage cannot be saved until your wife is willing to write the no contact letter. If she is not willing to write it after you confront her, only the actual filing of divorce will snap her out of the fog. You must accept that your marriage may end no matter what you do. Letting her go on living with you, paying the bills, supporting her and providing a home for her, while she makes up her mind, will not bring her back to you.

If you file for divorce, you can stop the process later if your wife later agrees to meet your conditions. She will respect you a thousand times more later for being a strong man and standing up firmly for your marriage now, or she will decide that your marriage is not worth saving, but still she will respect how you handled it.

Apparently, the other man is not married and does not have a serious girlfriend. He probably won't mind his parents being mad at him for screwing around with a married woman. Your wife is just sex to him anyway and he can stop after he finishes having his fun with her. If the other man was married and you exposed to his wife, he would have thrown your wife under the bus immediately and your wife would be able to see him for what he really is.

*Most of my hesitation in all of this is the belief (perhaps too far fetched at this point) that I can still salvage and somehow get through to her.* 

Your wife does not care about your marriage as much as you do. She is willing to throw it all away while you are prepared to do anything to save it. You just look weak and needy to her. She knows she is walking all over you by putting you in this situation and will lose respect for you for being a doormat.

*Please don't chastise as I suppose I'm being naive given everything? She continues to blameshift on me for the numerous lies that I've told (lied about parents, lied about spying, lied about keylogger last night, lied about calling OMs parents). There's been no remorseful breakdown of any sort....not for the affair, not for catching her...twice, not for bringing my daughter to the park, she's only now focused on the wrongs that I've committed instead of the one's that she has. She accepts what she did as being wrong, but not to the level that I had hoped for. 

I guess this isn't a buffet of tactics to end an affair where I can pick/choose what I want....instead its series of them based on your collective experiences that are tried/proven to illicit a result. *

She has already checked out of your marriage. She is trying to figure out how to get out of the marriage with the best result for her, both financially and image-wise. The fact that other man is single does not bode well for you either. Do not be surprised if you threaten to file for divorce that she takes you up on it.

In her mind, she has a fantasy of living a perfect fairy-tale life with the other man. She may have an unrealistic expectation of what her life will be like with the other man and without you - she might think she'll get a lot of alimony, child support, and her life will not change much except she will be with the other man instead of you.

Sometimes, only when the cheater's fantasy becomes reality, can they see their affair partner's flaws. Right now she is living with you and sees all your flaws, but she does not see any of the other man's flaws. Sometimes it takes the filing for divorce and starting to make concrete plans for future living arrangements to snap the cheater out of it. Sometimes the cheater would rather be divorced anyway. But staying in the arrangement where you let her sit on the fence until she makes up her mind never works. Just prolongs the inevitable divorce process and possible wakeup call for her to snap out of it.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

:iagree:

The longer you vacillate, the weaker you look, the more she is repelled by you, the more studly OM looks; after all, he's such a stud he goes after other men's wives and she's the lucky girl. It's a feedback loop that you have to break. The soft approach was an epic fail, time to break out Thor's hammer. In the meantime, continue with your improvement program. It didn't work on your wife, but it will pay off in your upcoming single parent days.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Be strong and firm when you confront. Do not cry or show weakness.

You want your attitude to convey that you love her and want to stay married, but that you would rather move on without her than tolerate infidelity or her choosing her relationship with another man, a relative stranger, over you, her husband of many years (which is what she is doing by refusing to end contact with the other man; if she still claims she has ended contact and never wants to see him again, then why wouldn't she want to write the no contact letter?).

Do not apoligize for any of the actions you've taken to save your marriage. Tell her all of your actions have been done out of love for her and to protect your marriage and your family.

It is normal for her to fight to continue the affair, so she can have both him and you, especially if you've always backed down and given in to her in the past. If that's the case, she will be expecting you to back down and not follow through with filing for divorce, just like you didn't follow through on your ultimatum the other day when she secretly met up with the other man after you told her you'd leave if anything else came up.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

By the way, *do not leave your house under any circumstances*. She is the cheater, she can leave if she wants.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I agee with everything Will Kane just said..He is soo right!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skip76 (Aug 30, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> Wow you remind me so much of my husband. He did have words with the OM and still talks about wanting to smash his skull in.. even tho it is my fault too he has soo much anger twords the OM built up I hope he never sees him face to face because I know for sure he'd beat the crap outa him. He's not thinking about the consequences at all...jail, court costs, loss of work..it's not worth it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As i am sure your husband would say was your affair worth it. Now you are worried about consequences? Why. You seem like a nice lady but that is why i could never take a cheater back. I would critique everything you said or did because it doesnt jive with what happened during affair. And i hate all that fog nonsense, just an excuse in my opinion. A wife would have been in a dopamine fog with her husband at one time as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

skip76 said:


> As i am sure your husband would say was your affair worth it. Now you are worried about consequences? Why. You seem like a nice lady but that is why i could never take a cheater back. I would critique everything you said or did because it doesnt jive with what happened during affair. And i hate all that fog nonsense, just an excuse in my opinion. A wife would have been in a dopamine fog with her husband at one time as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Skip, you need to do some research. Dopamine is only released at the beginning of a relationship to cement the relationship for breeding purposes. The effects of dopamine feel like the effects of cocaine. Lack of sleep, constant excitement, talking till the wee hours of the morning. The chemical that takes over as the dopamine fades is oxytocin. This bonds the pair as a couple. The feeling you get after having sex is the chemical oxytocin. It makes you want to cuddle. If the levels of dopamine build up to a great enough level they overwhelm the presence of oxytocin to an extent. This is why the cheater doesn't think of the betrayed spouse while with the AP but often feels guilty after the fact. Unfortunately the craving for a dopamine rush keeps the cheating spouse from ending the affair.

I'm sorry you don't believe in science but facts are facts. The fog does not excuse a person for cheating but it can explain much of the behavior while in the affair.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm a betrayed spouse, just so you know where I'm coming from.

I don't think the fog is an excuse. It's an explanation. It is a logical reason for why normal, mentally healthy people behave irrationally in affairs. Some examples:

--affair sex is nearly always unprotected, resulting in pregnancies and STDs. Rather a strange way to act, for something you're trying to keep a secret. Having a baby or an STD is a pretty dramatic way to have that secret revealed--but affair partners aren't thinking logically enough to avoid this obvious issue

--affair partners often declare undying love for each other; they view each other as soulmates, star crossed lovers, separated in a former life, best friends in the whole world, the only person who understands them, etc etc. Yet strangely they often don't bother to learn basic things about each other, like financial status, arrest records, birthdays, names of relatives, religious beliefs, values, etc. Again, a total contradiction

--after affair partners are separated for some period of time, many develop a more objective view of their situation. They realize that what they've done is wrong (many contemplate suicide, or refuse to return to their spouses out of shame); and many abandon the affair partner as rapidly as they entered into the affair. Again, bizarre behavior for someone who was a 'soulemate'

If I had not witnessed this up-close and personally, I'd probably never believe it either. But when you read the scientific literature, it all makes more sense.

And, you are right about dopamine bonding with the spouse originally, it is part of how people fall in love and eventually get married. But all you've proved by bringing that up is that it's the hormone that's released in the initial stages of infatuation. If you're MARRIED and dopamine bonded to someone outside the marriage, well, that's a problem, isn't it?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

back off skippy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Skip I understand what you mean...the pain that the WS causes is horrible..it haunts me now that I realize how much my hubby's head is all messed up because of what I did, I created this mess and wish I could fix it..sucks but sucks even worse for him...btw all that good dopamine feeling has gone tword hubby now because I feel like I just can't get enough of him..We are bonding like crazy! Yes I am very thankful for his undeserving forgiveness and love.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Btw Skip to answer your question heck no it was definately not worth it. I hate myself for it. Did I think about the consequences?? No and man I wish I did! UGGG Now I've ruined not only hubby but my relationship with my children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

CSS is not some kind of party girl,never has been.Ths was way out of character for her and no skippy it didnt go physical,no matter what you think.I know,You dont.
And do me a favor,dont say what I should be thinking.You are closed minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> Btw Skip to answer your question heck no it was definately not worth it. I hate myself for it. Did I think about the consequences?? No and man I wish I did! UGGG Now I've ruined not only hubby but my relationship with my children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its not ruined CSS. Its going to get better if you and calvin want it to. I'm going to be blunt (argh, Morrigan is going to kill me). Regret is good. Remorse is good. Throwing yourself a never ending pity party will not help calvin. You need to accept that good people do bad things. You did a bad thing and now you are atoning for it. Calvin is not stupid and he's not blind. He didn't marry an evil woman and he certainly wouldn't reconcile with one. He needs your support but if your head is always down you can't see when he needs you. Raise your head and look him in the eye. If you don't see love...look again because its there.

Sorry for the thread jack afm.


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