# Would you trade-up your spouse



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder". 

Would you trade up? Why or why not?


----------



## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

No. I gave my vows to my husband. Just because someone appears to better, doesn’t mean they actually are. I would have stayed single if I was still searching for someone else.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


What does better mean? We are not talking about a car here. We are talking about a relationship, emotionally healthy people would put a lot of value in history and loyalty. If they are thinking someone is better because they are "More Attractive" they are not emotionally healthy people and have no business being in a relationship. If you think you could be made happier then I would have to assume you are not happy. Then you are not in a good marriage, and you should have and still should deal with your spouse on that.

I am with my wife because I love her and I choose to want to give myself. It's true that I get a ton of value from being with her, and it's also true that I have certain expectations that are a requirement for that relationship. But she is not a stock or a hand at poker, she is a person I have a relationship with. 

If someone thinks this way you are an awful choice to be in a relationship with and the only person who would be trading up would be the person who they leave. 

All of that is assuming one could think this way and be in a "good" marriage, which in my mind is not possible. They may be able to fake it but if you think this way then they are incapable of understanding and giving love. Because at it't core love is unselfish. This kind of thinking is only selfish. 

So the true answer to this question is, this could never happen. If it does happens to you then what you were to that person was a trophy much like a sports car. You were certainly NOT in a good marriage.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Nope.

I could not stand such a violation of my integrity. That alone prevents me from not only doing something like that, but even from thinking along those lines.

Integrity aside, most would also be wise to consider what seems "better" in the heat of the moment often turns out to be anything but in the end.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

. . . and this is why handguns are better than wives. You actually can trade in your 44 for two 22's.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> . . . and this is why handguns are better than wives. You actually can trade in your 44 for two 22's.


If I'm getting my head blown off, I'll pick the wife.>


----------



## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

What an odd question. I guess that's why people have affairs, they think they're "trading up"
My answer would be no. Frankly a married person should never let the scenario developed where they start wondering if this new person is better than their spouse. That level of friendlyness is already crossing a line.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Cooper said:


> What an odd question. I guess that's why people have affairs, they think they're "trading up"
> My answer would be no. Frankly a married person should never let the scenario developed where they start wondering if this new person is better than their spouse. That level of friendlyness is already crossing a line.


I think though if your marriage is bad, assuming you meet someone who you click with it's only natural to wonder, did I marry the wrong person, would I be happier with this person?

The healthy way to deal with this is to be mindful of your marriage and be honest if you are not happy, and at worse leave before you have these feelings.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

This is exactly affair thinking. The concept of "trading up" is ever present in the cheater's mind, however the reality of the situation is generally them "affairing down". Funny story; A former client left his wife for his AP. His brother was coming to visit for Christmas, and my client was excited for him to meet the new girlfriend. Well brother meets the new GF, smiles nice and is generally convivial. Later, he takes my client aside and says to him, "You left W (the EXW) for that? What the f is wrong with you, you left a beautiful person in body and spirit for that objectionable little troll. What? She better in the sack? She rich? She smarter? What?" My client had his moment of epiphany. He suddenly realized that he was looking at the AP through "Affair goggles". He traded down, big-time. The realization was a kick in the ass with a cold boot. He ruminated over the holidays. Put out feelers to the ex W. His brother got involved, and talked to the ex. She was amenable to dating and seeing where it went. He kicked out his AP, and began dating his wife all over again. The exW was no dummy, she short leashed him, and made him go to IC. She would have none of him trying to move back, or acting like husband and wife again. No, he had to court her, and make her fall in love with him all over again. She made him work, and work. Then work some more. She put a timeframe on matters. By the following income tax season, we did two returns as a separated couple. By middle of the next year, we were informing the government of an address change, and a change of marital status back to married. He admits the affair was a major stupid error. Affairs do not mean you are trading up, you are giving away the good stuff for crap.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm asking because in another thread people seemed to be suggesting that it was OK to trade to a different spouse. 



Cooper said:


> What an odd question. I guess that's why people have affairs, they think they're "trading up"
> My answer would be no. Frankly a married person should never let the scenario developed where they start wondering if this new person is better than their spouse. That level of friendlyness is already crossing a line.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I'm asking because in another thread people seemed to be suggesting that it was OK to trade to a different spouse.


I can't be sure to which thread you're referring, but I suspected that was the case when you started this thread. 

If it's the one I'm thinking of, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, at least as I read things. I didn't get the impression that folks were generally suggesting to "trade up" so much as they were asserting that if the current spouse isn't meeting a basic required minimum for a marriage, that mean's it's okay to dissolve the union and seek someone who meets all required minimums.

I can see who that may be interpreted as "trading up," but the motivation is key here. There's a difference between looking to hit the next rung on a ladder and simply removing yourself from an untenable situation.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I'm asking because in another thread people seemed to be suggesting that it was OK to trade to a different spouse.


You know, if you are talking about the thread that I think you are, and maybe I am wrong, the no that is not way anyone said. 

What we are and have been saying to you is that 1) Your wife does not love you like a husband 2) She is not sexually attracted to you 3) That you are being foolish to stay with a woman that sees you as a roommate and a provider and not as a lover. 

We say this because we understand the difference between roommate love and romantic love and the sexual relationship that goes along with each...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Taxman said:


> This is exactly affair thinking. The concept of "trading up" is ever present in the cheater's mind, however the reality of the situation is generally them "affairing down". Funny story; A former client left his wife for his AP. His brother was coming to visit for Christmas, and my client was excited for him to meet the new girlfriend. Well brother meets the new GF, smiles nice and is generally convivial. Later, he takes my client aside and says to him, "You left W (the EXW) for that? What the f is wrong with you, you left a beautiful person in body and spirit for that objectionable little troll. What? She better in the sack? She rich? She smarter? What?" My client had his moment of epiphany. He suddenly realized that he was looking at the AP through "Affair goggles". He traded down, big-time. The realization was a kick in the ass with a cold boot. He ruminated over the holidays. Put out feelers to the ex W. His brother got involved, and talked to the ex. She was amenable to dating and seeing where it went. He kicked out his AP, and began dating his wife all over again. The exW was no dummy, she short leashed him, and made him go to IC. She would have none of him trying to move back, or acting like husband and wife again. No, he had to court her, and make her fall in love with him all over again. She made him work, and work. Then work some more. She put a timeframe on matters. By the following income tax season, we did two returns as a separated couple. By middle of the next year, we were informing the government of an address change, and a change of marital status back to married. He admits the affair was a major stupid error. Affairs do not mean you are trading up, you are giving away the good stuff for crap.


So the wife traded down then.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I can't be sure to which thread you're referring, but I suspected that was the case when you started this thread.
> 
> If it's the one I'm thinking of, I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, at least as I read things. I didn't get the impression that folks were generally suggesting to "trade up" so much as they were asserting that if the current spouse isn't meeting a basic required minimum for a marriage, that mean's it's okay to dissolve the union and seek someone who meets all required minimums.
> 
> I can see who that may be interpreted as "trading up," but the motivation is key here. There's a difference between looking to hit the next rung on a ladder and simply removing yourself from an untenable situation.


Is that thread here? If so let me know so I can go pound it.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> You know, if you are talking about the thread that I think you are, and maybe I am wrong, the no that is not way anyone said.
> 
> What we are and have been saying to you is that 1) Your wife does not love you like a husband 2) She is not sexually attracted to you 3) That you are being foolish to stay with a woman that sees you as a roommate and a provider and not as a lover.
> 
> We say this because we understand the difference between roommate love and romantic love and the sexual relationship that goes along with each...


OK, I knew it couldn't be on here. 

I should know you guys got this.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But people are suggesting that I trade my wife for a better one, despite her being generally a good partner. They are suggesting that I get a new wife who will have sex more often, and that its ok to get rid of the old one if I have better options.

Isn't sexual interest just one of the ways that a person can be desirable? So it seems this fits. 



BluesPower said:


> You know, if you are talking about the thread that I think you are, and maybe I am wrong, the no that is not way anyone said.
> 
> What we are and have been saying to you is that 1) Your wife does not love you like a husband 2) She is not sexually attracted to you 3) That you are being foolish to stay with a woman that sees you as a roommate and a provider and not as a lover.
> 
> We say this because we understand the difference between roommate love and romantic love and the sexual relationship that goes along with each...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But people are suggesting that I trade my wife for a better one, despite her being generally a good partner. They are suggesting that I get a new wife who will have sex more often, and that its ok to get rid of the old one if I have better options.
> 
> Isn't sexual interest just one of the ways that a person can be desirable? So it seems this fits.


My friend if you are not having intimacy most of us feel you are not even really in a marriage to begin with. You just have a platonic friendship that works like a business partnership. 

So it's less like getting a NEW wife, and more like getting a WIFE.

Wife implies intimacy and sexual intimacy unless medically impossible.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


of course almost all sane people are going to say "no way".

but if you think about it...this is whats going on everyday, everywhere. if we weren't "trading up" there would hardly ever be divorce.

people just don't think about it as trading up. I can hear all the excuses and justification...…."i'm not happy" or "they changed" blah blah blah.

trading up is almost the norm in everything now. Society doesn't repair/rebuild anything anymore, you just dispose of it and get a new one ( I call that trading up) regardless of it's a car or a home or appliances or whatever and sometimes even when there is nothing worng with what they have and just desire something newer, more exciting and flashier.


sadly I see "trading up" as the EXACT way people handle marriages in today's world. everyone can just lie to themselves and justify so as not to think if it that way.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Uh, no.

Speaking in hypotheticals, if one had a horrible marriage that was already tried to fix repeatedly, a no go, and a different good loving person was met then one may take that chance. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Uh, no.
> 
> Speaking in hypotheticals, if one had a horrible marriage that was already tried to fix repeatedly, a no go, and a different good loving person was met then one may take that chance.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


while I understand what you are saying...the trouble is....WHO defines having a "horrible" marriage? often times peoples perceptions are FAR from reality.

seen it here many times where an unhappy spouse comes here looking for answers/solutions to questions only to have others point out their unhappiness is not the other persons fault and the issue lies within themselves. And in too many instances, they simply don't want to hear that. They claim do have done "anything and everything" to get their spouse to see or act the way THEY want them to and no amount of logic will help them to understand the true nature of the issue. rather then putting in the real effort of changing themselves, the spouse gets labeled as horrible and the divorce is forthcoming.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

uhtred said:


> But people are suggesting that I trade my wife for a better one, despite her being generally a good partner. They are suggesting that I get a new wife who will have sex more often, and that its ok to get rid of the old one if I have better options.
> 
> Isn't sexual interest just one of the ways that a person can be desirable? So it seems this fits.


No no no... OMG. 

Brother, it is about finding someone that loves you like you deserve. "Trading her in" for a woman that actually loves you. A woman that desires you, and yes a woman that wants to have sex with you. 

Listen, maybe you have never had a relationship like I am describing, I don't know. What is going on in your marriage is not the norm, is just is not. 

Let me use my current GF as an example. We are deeply in love, for me and her, it is like no other relationship that I have ever had. 

Yes I have had sex with a lot of women, but it is so much better with a woman that you are in love with and a woman that loves you. 

This woman would do just about anything to please me sexually. As I would her. And just so you understand, I am 54 and she is 60. We have sex everyday that we are together. And we are together most day, but not everyone. 

The desire that we have for each other is never ending. The love and desire that we have for each other even with my experience and age is just like nothing I have ever experienced. 

I guess you cannot explain this stuff to people who never have experienced it. 

What I am trying to tell you is that your wife's behavior is not the behavior of a woman that love you the way that a wife SHOULD love her husband. 

How do I know that, because when you threatened divorce because of lack of sex, it got better, but then it stopped. You see that is not the way that a woman that loves her husband acts. Not a woman that romantically loves her husband. I am not saying that she does not care for you, or love you like a brother, I am just saying that she does not love you like a LOVER, because you are not her lover. Sex with you is an annoyance to her and she will continue to close the spigot until NO sex is happening at all. 

I hope that some of that helps you understand reality, if not, I got nothing else...


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

x598 said:


> while I understand what you are saying...the trouble is....WHO defines having a "horrible" marriage? often times peoples perceptions are FAR from reality.
> 
> seen it here many times where an unhappy spouse comes here looking for answers/solutions to questions only to have others point out their unhappiness is not the other persons fault and the issue lies within themselves. And in too many instances, they simply don't want to hear that. They claim do have done "anything and everything" to get their spouse to see or act the way THEY want them to and no amount of logic will help them to understand the true nature of the issue. rather then putting in the real effort of changing themselves, the spouse gets labeled as horrible and the divorce is forthcoming.


Hey, I can dig that answer. 

Much deals with who's perspective and subjective opinions.

So much that horrible can be swapped with (among other circumstances; final realizations of incompatibility and limits reached regarding how much work is involved and perceived as too much for limited rewards.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


If my marriage is "generally good" I can't imagine being attracted to someone else enough to even begin to consider it.

If someone is considering "trading up" either:

1. They have a character flaw and will never be truly satisfied with any one person. 
or, more likely:
2. Their marriage is NOT "generally good." Their needs are not getting met by their spouse and there is a hole that they are trying to fill and other "more attractive" alternatives seem appealing.

For example, you mention wealthier -- If I'm living a modest life with a hard working man that I love and feel loved by, a billionaire would not seem like a "trade up" to me.

But when I was married to a man who spent compulsively and didn't have a job, any reasonably nice man with a job who was not drowning in debt seemed like a trade up. I tried telling myself our marriage was "generally good" because I loved him and we got along just fine. But it wasn't good. It was killing me. Ultimately, I "traded up" by choosing MYSELF and just getting out of a comfortable but unhealthy for me marriage.

I think sometimes people are deeply unhappy and unfulfilled in their marriage and start fantasizing about someone else being better, and that fantasy may be what it takes to help motivate them out of the bad situation. But like the others have said, when they have an affair, they're hardly ever actually trading up.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@uhtred I’ve never been in your shoes so I can’t imagine it. Meaning, where sex was the only thing missing and everything else was good. I don’t know what I would do. I think I may do what you are doing and just try to stuff my sex drive and desires and accept it.

And like you I would possibly just focus mainly on the good stuff....but would intermittently get frustrated and need to sort it out again. This is because I just don’t think I really could ever totally stuff my desires. 

I don’t know that’s what I would do but when I honestly try to imagine a happy marriage in all respects minus sex, I might. 

I just know I would be trading away a certain type of happiness to stay in the marriage and it would hurt a lot.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred I’ve never been in your shoes so I can’t imagine it. Meaning, where sex was the only thing missing and everything else was good. I don’t know what I would do. I think I may do what you are doing and just try to stuff my sex drive and desires and accept it.
> 
> And like you I would possibly just focus mainly on the good stuff....but would intermittently get frustrated and need to sort it out again. This is because I just don’t think I really could ever totally stuff my desires.
> 
> ...


I know you are being nice. 

But tell the truth, could you actually be in a marriage without sex and good sex at that. 

Would you ever really be able to do that, I know that I could not. 

I personally reject the premise of the statement... With out great sex, I don't think there can be a romantic relationship. 

I am sure that is just me though...


----------



## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

I ladder is too simplistic, one needs to look at the hot/crazy matrix. I think she’s good on that, so a keeper.


----------



## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

uhtred said:


> But people are suggesting that I trade my wife for a better one, despite her being generally a good partner. They are suggesting that I get a new wife who will have sex more often, and that its ok to get rid of the old one if I have better options.
> 
> Isn't sexual interest just one of the ways that a person can be desirable? So it seems this fits.


Not a better wife. One with whom you are more compatible in the sex department. Right now, you have a buddy and cherish those qualities in her that make her a good buddy but resent that she is also not a lover. Some people can be a buddy or a lover but not both. Decide if you want a live-in buddy or a wife. You can try to back off the buddy vibe and see if she will respond as a lover. It's worth a shot.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Where on earth is that place where a person can "trade" their spouse, and not have to spend some time alone first?

There is no such thing as "trading" a spouse except in affairland. A person in an affair overlaps having a relationship with two people, making it seem like a trade.

As another person said, the only trade is to trade misery (in an unfulfilling, lonely, or sexless marriage) for happiess by living alone and taking care of yourself.

The new relationship part comes after the learning to live alone with yourself part.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


No. Marriage is suppose to be about commitment. 

On the other hand, if my wife did something that totally showed no commitment to the marriage and did not wish to recommit to it, then I would not hesitate in divorcing her. I came close once when we were in marriage counseling with a sex therapist because my wife refused to have sex with me. We resolved those issues and now have a much better life together.

Once the divorce was final, I would use the life lessons I had to find an even better life partner or at least play partner depending on what the next lady wanted.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a tricky question of balancing priorities. 

But there is a different side. I couldn't leave my wife unless she did something really off the curve. I could justify leaving IF we originally had a sex life and it ended (for other than medical reasons), but since it hasn't changed, I don't see how I could leave honorably even if I wanted to - which all things considered I don't. 




Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred I’ve never been in your shoes so I can’t imagine it. Meaning, where sex was the only thing missing and everything else was good. I don’t know what I would do. I think I may do what you are doing and just try to stuff my sex drive and desires and accept it.
> 
> And like you I would possibly just focus mainly on the good stuff....but would intermittently get frustrated and need to sort it out again. This is because I just don’t think I really could ever totally stuff my desires.
> 
> ...


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?






















Oh! THere is a difference between marriage and used car lots!


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I'm asking because in another thread people seemed to be suggesting that it was OK to trade to a different spouse.


That needs to be understood with the strong caveat that if the spouse is not fulfilling their job as a spouse it is within the other person's right to dissolve the marriage. 

I think most everyone including most major religions will condone divorce in cases of abuse, adultery, addiction, abandonment etc etc


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I could justify leaving IF we originally had a sex life and it ended (for other than medical reasons), but since it hasn't changed, I don't see how I could leave honorably even if I wanted to - which all things considered I don't.


I see it the exact opposite. 

If you had had a hot, passionate, satisfying relationship in the past, then that would show there was some attraction and perhaps there may be a way it can be restored to at least some degree.

But the fact you have never had a vigorous sex life shows that she either has no sexual desire for you or is simply a dud in bed. That most likely indicates nothing short of either you or her transforming into a completely different person (that she happens to be attracted to) that anything will substantially help. 

I see that as a valid towel-throw moment. 

It's just cutting losses.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But, assuming I wanted to leave, it would be cutting *my* losses are her expense. Doesn't that violate the spirit of the marriage vows. 






oldshirt said:


> I see it the exact opposite.
> 
> If you had had a hot, passionate, satisfying relationship in the past, then that would show there was some attraction and perhaps there may be a way it can be restored to at least some degree.
> 
> ...


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


*Supposedly I traded up; RSXW traded down!

I was told by her that she loved my genuineness and honesty! I knew that she had geeda$, but it didn't really matter to me! And my lack of monetary wealth didn't seem to bother her either! That fact screamed "honesty" to me! To me, we were made for each other!

Well, just 7 years into the marriage, she was covertly hooking up with old boyfriends from her high school/college past!

Moral of this story: Guess that I just wasn't quite "genuine" enough!*


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

uhtred said:


> But, assuming I wanted to leave, it would be cutting *my* losses are her expense. Doesn't that violate the spirit of the marriage vows.


How much "expense" do you really think she will have??

Honest question. She's an educated, gainfully employed, adult women without minor children that has no desire for you, how much is you moving on with your own life really going to hurt her? 

For all practical purposes you are just friends and roommates now. How hard will it be for her to get a another roommate and someone else to go on outings with?

For all we know, she may be able to find love and desire in someone else herself. 

As far as vows, in polite society and church venues, the vows rarely explicitly state 'sexuality' but marital sexuality is inferred in all cultures and all religions as part of the love, cherish etc etc. 

She has never upheld that end of the bargain, at least in the sense of sincere desire.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

No way, I made promises to Him and would never leave or cheat.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> You know, if you are talking about the thread that I think you are, and maybe I am wrong, the no that is not way anyone said.
> 
> What we are and have been saying to you is that 1) Your wife does not love you like a husband 2) She is not sexually attracted to you 3) That you are being foolish to stay with a woman that sees you as a roommate and a provider and not as a lover.
> 
> We say this because we understand the difference between roommate love and romantic love and the sexual relationship that goes along with each...


None of those things take away from the fact he made vows to her, and especially if there are children he has responsibilities to not run off because things may not be perfect.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But, assuming I wanted to leave, it would be cutting *my* losses are her expense. Doesn't that violate the spirit of the marriage vows.


yes I think it does. Surely its for better and for worse? Also its devastating for children and wider family.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> None of those things take away from the fact he made vows to her, and especially if there are children he has responsibilities to not run off because things may not be perfect.


I am fairly adament about not walking out of a marriage just becuase it gets a little tough or you aren't happy. You really should think of your family first and address the problems before you throw in the towel.

But I think there is fair comparison to being in a sexless marriage and one stained by adultery. No one would dare say to anyone whose spouse cheats that they owe it to their kids and such and such vows (which cheater already broke), that he has to suck it up and stay. 

I sometimes wonder if women understand that sex is parmount for a man to maintain emotional intimacy in a marriage. I think vows relate to intimacy as much as not fking other people.

A wife is not suppose to be a roommate that you share hobbies with. Its nice to have shared interests, but if you make your need known and she refuses them, then why fall on your sword for someone that selfish?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She may not want sex with me, but she loves me. Practicalities are not the issue. 

(and I love her - I wish we had more sex, but that doesn't mean I don't love her)



oldshirt said:


> How much "expense" do you really think she will have??
> 
> Honest question. She's an educated, gainfully employed, adult women without minor children that has no desire for you, how much is you moving on with your own life really going to hurt her?
> 
> ...


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> She may not want sex with me, but she loves me. Practicalities are not the issue.
> 
> (and I love her - I wish we had more sex, but that doesn't mean I don't love her)


Is there a reason she can't have sex?

Are you religious?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Sex is the glue that holds marriages together. There is no wonder you are frustrated. Its natural and nothing to be ashamed of.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> None of those things take away from the fact he made vows to her, and especially if there are children he has responsibilities to not run off because things may not be perfect.


They don't have sex at all. She is not sick accept in the head. 

She has broken the vows already and always has. I can quote you verse for verse, so don't even start. 

She does not in any way love him, this is not what God even intended...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> I know you are being nice.
> 
> But tell the truth, could you actually be in a marriage without sex and good sex at that.
> 
> ...


I’m not being “nice”. I’m being authentic.

I will be “nice” to you right now in my response however (and still authentic).

Do you understand what empathy means? In order to truly contemplate what I would do in Untred’s shoes, I have to imagine being married to someone I love deeply but who essentially is asexual (or some variation close on that spectrum). I have to imagine that I have gone through my adult life with them for 30 years with happiness in all areas except sexual (and some moments of happiness there, as Uhtred has described). I have to imagine actually being in HIS shoes, not just imagine what I would do today in my own shoes.

When I do that, I can see many reasons for trying to accept it. And I can see (from his perspective) that there are not very many reasons that seem worth upsetting the apple cart. I’m also trying to factor in Uhtred’s personality which is different than mine (and which I’ve noted as he has shared over the years). 

That’s empathy (in one very simple form, certainly not the entirety of the topic). Trying to actually put yourself in the other persons shoes. Their shoes, not yours.

If I had everything I ever wanted except sex, I may decide that was good enough. It would require that I love this person deeply and that my other needs were met. And that’s how Uhtred’s marriage sounds.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m not being “nice”. I’m being authentic.
> 
> I will be “nice” to you right now in my response however (and still authentic).
> 
> ...


Well you are a better person that me. I could never do it, can never would. 

I will say this, his wife does not love him as anything but a friend and never has. 

He cannot really understand that, and probably never will. 

This is not what marriage is supposed to be....


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Araucaria said:


> Where on earth is that place where a person can "trade" their spouse, and not have to spend some time alone first?.


I'd love to know, too.

....I'm asking for a friend, of course.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

sokillme said:


> So the wife traded down then.


TBH, absolutely. There are some days that I can sit across a desk from a client and silently repeat my mantra over and over, "WTF?, WTF?, WTF?":grin2:


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


No. That is pretty much to me the definition of marriage vows. "I'm not leaving even if someone better turns up"!

That's quite a different matter from the fact that it's OK to end the marriage if it has become unsustainable, for example if the partner has an affair or addiction *and is unwilling to address it.* Leaving for someone else, and leaving because it can't be fixed, are two different things.

And to that I would add, if someone is telling themselves it's too bad and it can't be fixed, but there just happens to be someone else in the offing, then I look at that with grave suspicion. Often, they are convincing themselves how bad the marriage is so that they can "trade up". They might say they would be ending the marriage anyway even if the "better alternative" wasn't there. I am sceptical. 



Cooper said:


> What an odd question. I guess that's why people have affairs, they think they're "trading up"


I would say not usually. Usually they want both. 



BluesPower said:


> But tell the truth, could you actually be in a marriage without sex and good sex at that. Would you ever really be able to do that, I know that I could not.


We're all different. I could. It may be an age thing, I am in my 60s, and was never super highly sexed. I'd like it once a week, now, but I could manage without. Indeed, I am currently managing without. 

The big issue is actually if sex is not happening *and the unwilling spouse is trying to shame the one that wants sex.* It's one thing if it's "I'm sorry" but it's another if it's "ooh, you and your _entitlement _to sex, you perv, me too" etc etc.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Taxman said:


> TBH, absolutely. There are some days that I can sit across a desk from a client and silently repeat my mantra over and over, "WTF?, WTF?, WTF?":grin2:


That's *every* working day for me. "Hang on, can I stop you there, can you just talk me through that again more slowly?"


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who *seems* "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


The important word to consider here, is "seems." When you have a known, sure, good thing with your present relationship, it "seems" stupid to risk that for an unproven, unknown person.

Anyway, no, I wouldn't trade because I know I have someone wonderful now, and wouldn't risk that for someone who merely "seems" better. I _might_ date them, and if they are _also_ a great match, eventually even ask if they want to move in with us, if _everyone_ is in agreement. That's one advantage of an open, poly relationship - you don't have to make a choice, and risk getting it wrong.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Laurentium said:


> We're all different. I could. It may be an age thing, I am in my 60s, and was never super highly sexed. I'd like it once a week, now, but I could manage without. Indeed, I am currently managing without.
> 
> The big issue is actually if sex is not happening *and the unwilling spouse is trying to shame the one that wants sex.* It's one thing if it's "I'm sorry" but it's another if it's "ooh, you and your _entitlement _to sex, you perv, me too" etc etc.


Well that is the difference with people. My GF is 60 and I am 54. 

I will say that since meeting me, her drive is through the roof. And she says as much. 

But evidently I am some type of perv according to some the people in these sexless situations. 

For me, for better or worse, sex and love go together. No sex, no desire, no love, no relationship. 

That is just how I am wired...


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> That's *every* working day for me. "Hang on, can I stop you there, can you just talk me through that again more slowly?"


As a function of my age, I am suffering fools less gladly than I did in my youth. I was capable of sitting in a room with a moron and was able to nod and smile, letting whatever issued forth from their pitiful brain-pans go in one ear and out the other. Now, not so much.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


I don't depend on my spouse to make me happy. The question is then null and void.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No physical reason - will until this last year or so when it became so rare that its no longer comfortable for her at all. Basically she is asexual - she does not have normal sexual desire. Its not talked about much, but its a few percent of the population - and as immutable as other sexual orientations. 

I could go into the long sad story of why it took so long to recognize this, but basically I didn't realize asexuality even existed until a couple of years ago. 



sokillme said:


> Is there a reason she can't have sex?
> 
> Are you religious?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I believe that for her (not me), love and sex are disconnected. In all other ways she gives every indication of deeply loving me - she just as no sexual desire, and worse doesn't understand sexual desire. 







BluesPower said:


> Well you are a better person that me. I could never do it, can never would.
> 
> I will say this, his wife does not love him as anything but a friend and never has.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Yeswecan said:


> I don't depend on my spouse to make me happy. The question is then null and void.


If something does not contribute to your happiness what is it doing in your life?


----------



## daMan (Dec 18, 2012)

The grass is always greener on the other side.



uhtred said:


> .... then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier...


Marriage is a long journey, unless you live with someone for many years, you won't know if a person can make you happier long term.

I have a reasonably good marriage, there are some rocky times just like all marriages, but overall it's good. So I would not trade it up for anything because I know for certain that my marriage will continue to be good for many years, but a new marriage with someone new? how good is the marriage down the road is an uncertainty.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well I think all that is left for you is a choice.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> 
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?



No, my wife is top of the chain. The only way is down, baby!  
Especially now that her clit is ‘working’ again and we are having sex daily, it would seem impossible to trade up! (joking! There’s more to a woman than her clit: the breasts are amazing too!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> But people are suggesting that I trade my wife for a better one, despite her being generally a good partner. They are suggesting that I get a new wife who will have sex more often, and that its ok to get rid of the old one if I have better options.
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't sexual interest just one of the ways that a person can be desirable? So it seems this fits.



I think people (used to?) get a mistress in your situations. Btw I wouldn’t necessarily listen to anyone: only you know best what’s best for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yeswecan said:


> I don't depend on my spouse to make me happy. The question is then null and void.


Your spouse may not make you happy - as you say, that's largely in your control. However, it's often the case that your spouse can make your life miserable!


----------



## Dusk (Oct 29, 2018)

I couldn't be happy if I were in a relationship with no physical intimacy and no sex. So I would a) never put myself in that position by marrying into it and b) if I somehow ended up there I would leave because I'd rather be alone than in a relationship like that. Nothing to do with "trading up" and I think you've phrased it like that to make everyone say oh no, of course I wouldn't do that, because for some reason you seem to be seeking validation and agreement. I haven't been here long and I've still managed to pick that up from your posts.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

No. My husband is and always will be, my greatest blessing. Wouldn't swap him for anything.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred I’ve never been in your shoes so I can’t imagine it. Meaning, where sex was the only thing missing and everything else was good. I don’t know what I would do. I think I may do what you are doing and just try to stuff my sex drive and desires and accept it.
> 
> And like you I would possibly just focus mainly on the good stuff....but would intermittently get frustrated and need to sort it out again. This is because I just don’t think I really could ever totally stuff my desires.
> 
> ...


That is a really good point. It makes me think of someone who is gay but doesn't admit it then marries the opposite sex and TRIES to be happy. They love the person they married but that person can never meet their TRUE needs/desires. Ultimately they just aren't happy no matter how hard they try. Or how "generally good" everything else is. Without romance/sexual desire what IS marriage? It's like roommates/siblings I guess. If that works for both people there is no problem. But otherwise I imagine the rejection/lack of interest/passion from the spouse gets very painful and you wonder how could the relationship be generally good?


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

I am sitting across from my wife at our partners' desk. Her computer and monitor on one side, my stuff opposite it. 

She got out of detox two days ago after five days under medical supervision. She refused the other 25 days of therapy/counseling that were part of the program. 

She's writing a journal of all the various personal slights, etc., that she had to endure in the coocoo's nest.

And, she has been a gold-plated b!tch today. Sullen, short tempered, entitled. 

I have been understanding, thankful that she agreed to go, solicitous. At least, she hasn't fallen off the wagon and into a bottle. 

But, Goddamn it, I am tired of this "the world turns because I'm on it" attitude. 

Put up with her drunken hallucinations, anger, wanderings, and moping. 

I'm setting a deadline of July 1. Things will get better...no more deadbedroom, no more alcohol, no more *****, or I'm filing for divorce and getting on with what's left of my life.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

23cm said:


> I am sitting across from my wife at our partners' desk. Her computer and monitor on one side, my stuff opposite it.
> 
> She got out of detox two days ago after five days under medical supervision. She refused the other 25 days of therapy/counseling that were part of the program.
> 
> ...


July is a long way off. Why wait? Do you have any intermediate goals or baby step requirements along the way?


----------



## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> July is a long way off. Why wait? Do you have any intermediate goals or baby step requirements along the way?


Baby steps? Willing to see if she makes the effort to stay clean. My hope (yeah, I know "hope") is that when she's thinking straight, many of the problems will be resolved with outpatient therapy. I'm willing to hang in for that.

You're right though. As an old sailor will tell you, sometimes the only way to save yourself is to cut away the rigging. I'm close to the tipping point. 

And, then you're damned right I'll be trading up...


----------



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


Happiness could never come from someone else. It always comes from within. If you don't know how to be happy it is you that has a problem, not your spouse. 

I definitely could never find anyone who is better than my spouse. We have known each other for 38 years and married for 13. Grew up together. Our mums were best friends when they were alive. our dads were fairly close too. 

no I would not trade him in. If we divorce for whatever reason, that's me done with men.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I suggest YOU do a journal. Brief note on how you're feeling each day. When July rolls around if things still feel complicated, you'll have a clear record of why you do or don't want to stay in this marriage. 



23cm said:


> I am sitting across from my wife at our partners' desk. Her computer and monitor on one side, my stuff opposite it.
> 
> She got out of detox two days ago after five days under medical supervision. She refused the other 25 days of therapy/counseling that were part of the program.
> 
> ...


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MaiChi said:


> Happiness could never come from someone else. It always comes from within. If you don't know how to be happy it is you that has a problem, not your spouse.


People say this all the time but I really have to disagree with it.

True that a person who does not know how to be happy, will never be happy no matter how great their spouse. But a person who would otherwise be very happy and good natured can be laid low and miserable being married to the wrong person.

Maybe happiness can't come from someone else, but UNhappiness sure can!

Also, If someone else can't enhance your happiness, why ever be in a relationship?


----------



## SarcasticRed (Feb 21, 2018)

If, as is my case, the marriage is "good" then there is no reason (or desire!) to find someone else. When I got married, I gave up the prospect of "better" in favor of commitment and the understanding that we are in this together. Everyone has flaws and my husband's flaws are the ones I want to deal with in exchange for all the positives he has. 

Everyone (I hope) gets married with the idea that their spouse is the best for them. Marriage isn't something most people take lightly as it is a legally binding contract that is expensive and time-consuming, not to mention emotionally draining, to break. But sometimes being together is no longer best for both parties. When the marriage becomes "bad" or unfixable or toxic, then why stay? In that case, divorce is probably the best answer for both parties. After a divorce, each would be free to find someone "better". 

So, no. In a good marriage, I would not trade up.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

uhtred said:


> Imagine your marriage is generally good, and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever - someone who you believe would make you happier. If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".
> 
> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


You know, @uhtred, this is a most interesting question. Let's review it, shall we?



> Imagine your marriage is generally good...


Based on the way you state this, I assume what you mean is that the marriage is good...but it's not great (for whatever reason). I am satisfied to some degree, but in some ways that are important, it's not "outstanding" and I'm not "ecstatic"...and from what I can tell, neither is my spouse. It hasn't slipped into sexlessness or roommates, but maybe a nice, warm, okayish rut. 

If that were the situation I found myself in, I would do two things: 
1) I would look at myself. How did I contribute to the condition of the marriage (aka "good but not great")? What do I need to do differently to make it great? How would I do those new, different things--being practical, what's my plan? In other words, have I done ALL I CAN in order to make this a fabulously great marriage? If not, be honest and figure out what I need to do...then DO IT!! I may very well need to be a better person or grow or mature in some way!
2) I would look at my spouse--not for "blame" but for what they need to be happier. Do we need to do a Love Languages checkup? Do we need to talk about needs or those little habits/resentments that kill love? Do we need to make the time to be lovers again? I'd also look at my spouse and tell them what I need to be happier. Maybe we need to focus on just having some fun and putting work down. Maybe I need to talk about something that really hurt me. Whatever the deal, if I were good but not great, I would look to my spouse and nowhere else. 



> ...and then you meet someone who seems "better" than your spouse - more attractive, wealthier, whatever


I meet men every day who might seem "better" by some form of measurement or other...and he meets women every day who might seem "better" by some form of measurement or other. I'm sure there are younger, more attractive, wealthier, more athletic, more thrill seeking, more ambitious, more spiritual, more mature, deeper, smarter, funnier men out there in the world than my spouse. Likewise, I am just as positive there are younger, prettier, richer women with great tits and firm bodies, who climb cliffs and climb the corporate ladder, or feed the homeless, counsel others wisely, think of political philosophies, invent new disease-curing drugs, and make their audiences laugh! Hey, Hollywood is FULL of the rich and shiny, and Washington is full of the powerful and wealthy!

But that is not the one to whom I have made a promise. So if I do meet someone who is more handsome or richer or whatever, I shake their hand, say "How do you do?" and I don't give them another thought because they don't mean anything to me. I have a moral and legal duty to protect our relationship, and I do that by giving to the ONE, what is due. NO ONE ELSE GETS THAT, because I promise to forsake all others, and my word is my bond. 

So when I meet someone "better" I am courteous and mannerly, and make it extremely clear that the one and only person I love is the one to whom it's been promised. Thus, there really IS no one "better" ... is there?



> ...someone who you believe would make you happier...


If I were in the situation of believing that someone else would make me happier, then the problem would not be my spouse or the other person...the problem would be me. I am the one who determines my own happiness. I choose my emotional response. Now, life does happen, and not all of life is joyful...but I have lived through the death of spouse and discovered that when there is suffering and great sorrow, joy does not stop. Joy and sorrow are a continuous mixture in life. Sooo...I can choose to focus on the sorrow and missing the past that I no longer have, and thus suffer and be unhappy...OR I can choose to focus on the joy that is still existing in the present and the joy that will be existing in the future, and thus be happy. 

There is no "someone" who would make me happy. If I am by myself, I am happy. If I am with another, I am happy. If I share my life with someone, I am happy. If I live my life on my own, I am happy. And if someone were to come along who was "smarter, richer, and prettier" they are not relevant to my happiness. What makes me happy is if I am in harmony with my inner self, and my inner core value is to honor my promises. Now, let's suppose I make a promise to someone I love, and they have something occur that just breaks them. I mean, a great tragedy of some sort, or their mind snaps, etc. For me, life would be difficult because I'd be with someone who was no longer "who they were"--right? Well...I would still be the kind of person who made a promise and would honor it to the best of my ability, and that would be what makes me happy...not whether someone does this or that. Know what I mean? No other person "makes" me happy. 



> ...If you believe in ladders (which I don't), someone who is higher on the "ladder".


I don't believe in this one iota. Period. So this is not relevant.



> Would you trade up? Why or why not?


I believe my answer is evident, but in case it's not, NOPE! I don't care if the other person was Prince Charming, I'd be trading down for the mere fact that the Prince would be someone who would not only be there while I broke promises, but encourage it! That's not a person of the kind of character I would associate with. 

And if were someone who would encourage me to NOT break my promises, then they'd be a true friend of myself and the marriage and encourage me to go to my spouse and make things GREAT with the one to whom I did make promises! See? 

Either way, I'm headed back to my spouse, I'm looking at myself and "at us", and I'm putting in some overtime to make what is good into something that is ecstatic and great.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

No, but I want my premenopause wife back


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Nah we just hit 12 years on the 21st. I don't see it ending, but I would be trading down from her no question. She's got a lot of room to trade up from me though :grin2:


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Your spouse may not make you happy - as you say, that's largely in your control. However, it's often the case that your spouse can make your life miserable!


I did not say my spouse does not make me happy. I do not depend on my spouse for my happiness. Certainly a spouse can make life miserable.


----------

