# Not sure what to do--marital rut or serious problem?



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Hi all, I'm brand new here so please bear with me if this topic has been covered already.

I met my husband in college; we have been together for 5 years and married for 2 of them. I am 25 and he is 26. I had just gotten out of a 5 year relationship (High school sweethearts, oi...) when we met, and he had been fairly..promiscuous up until then. This threw up a small red flag for me, but I overlooked it since I've made some mistakes myself. We had a lot in common, especially our love of the outdoors, and things were great. 

About 2 months after we started dating, he had to go to Australia for his brother's wedding. I later discovered that he had visited a strip club there, alone, at least twice to see the same dancer. He also tried to get in touch with her via email while he was there. It was a major speed bump, but we worked through it, though I can't honestly say I have forgiven him. Almost a year later we moved in together, and a while after that I discovered he'd been leaving early to visit a lingerie coffee-shop on his way to class every morning. This might not have gotten to me so much if not for the prior incident. Our fight escalated to the point that I got up to leave the room and he grabbed me—the first time he’d ever been physical with me in that way.

At this point we'd been together for 1 1/2 years and were already engaged. He was extremely apologetic, as he had been before, and I did my best to let it go. I still found him physically attractive, but I had lost a lot of trust in him. He was often distant and closed-off about his feelings, and could be extremely cold when he felt insulted. He blamed this on having been cheated on before and his need to keep his "walls" up. Needless to say, I had some doubts when the wedding came around, but I went through with it as I was mostly happy and figured we were just young and would work things out. 

Fast forward to now--we're still young, and most of those issues have turned into new ones. First, I found I was becoming less attracted to him physically. He is a very good-looking and fit man, but we have never connected intellectually. He is a smart guy in most ways, but rather shallow and can be frustratingly narrow-minded. He has a regular tendency to misinterpret things that I tell him, twisting them until they become insults and I often end up feeling like I should be apologizing for sharing my feelings. I've dealt with emotional manipulation before, but I'm not sure if what he's doing is intentional--I suspect his severe insecurity is the cause. 

As I began feeling less interested in him physically, things began getting worse. I did, and still do, make an effort to be intimate with him at least twice a week (which is far less often than he would like). However, one of the first times I turned down his advances he reacted by basically throwing a tantrum--immediately getting upset and storming out of the bedroom. This behavior still continues, though now he is more likely to turn away from me and lay there for a few minutes before starting an argument. At this point I'm often anxious about going to bed with him when I know he's expecting sex, because I am usually so occupied with deciding whether I want to deal with the sullen mood and fighting or just go along with it and get it over with. 

Our fights have frequently gotten physical—he has grabbed me and blocked me from leaving the room several times. A few months ago we attended his military dining out, and he was so upset with me for drinking too much (we both had) and falling asleep without “putting out” that he woke me up early the next morning by holding me down and screaming at me, then he yanked my dress up and said he could have had me anyway if he’d wanted to, since I had passed out. I gave my ring back to him right then; of course he later apologized and we haven’t had any fights that became physical since.

I don't feel like I've ever "cut him off," in fact I doubt we've ever gone a week without having sex at least once. And I've always tried to boost his ego as much as possible, but he seems to think the success of our relationship is measured by the physical aspect of it. I explained to him that I thought his negative reactions added pressure to the situation and were making me want to avoid it altogether. He immediately took this to mean that I wasn't attracted to him, and became hurt. Later on he seemed more understanding and pledged to work on his reactions, which seem to have improved but I have yet to feel like it is okay for me to say no. 

At this point, I am very concerned about our future and not even sure that I want to continue working on this. I have no problem admitting that half of this is probably my fault—I can be selfish at times, and I can be insensitive when I feel like he is trying to use his emotions to manipulate me. I’ve also been guilty of striking him when he has grabbed me, and having seen my parents beat the heck out of each other for years it terrifies me to think I’m mimicking their toxic relationship. He also really wants to have children, but it’s never been a priority for me and I’m wondering if he is looking for a way to tighten his grasp. 

After all that, I do love him and at this point I don’t feel like he would ever cheat on me. Then again, I’m not sure if I would care as much as I would have before. He is extremely hard-working and motivated, and has done a complete 180 from being cold and distant (now he is downright clingy and overly sensitive half the time.) He is always the first to offer help, even to strangers, and he does a lot of chores while I’m at work so that I don’t always have to deal with them when I get home. Yet I still feel like there is a huge disconnect between us—half of my life is based on the outdoors (hunting, fishing, horseback riding, etc) and he’s a perfect partner, but the other half of me loves art, literature, and embracing diversity, and we will never connect on that level. For example, he acted disgusted when I dyed my hair with a few subtle blue streaks, something I used to do fairly often before we met. Unfortunately, he has become very dependent on my attention and I’m concerned about what he might do if I left. He is leaving for training in a few days and will only be home on weekends until mid-August, and I’m afraid his absence is going to lead to an even wider gap between us, at best.

There is a lot more to it, but this has gotten much longer than I expected already. I guess I’m just looking for a different perspective on the situation and would like to know if my expectations are completely unrealistic. Should I keep trying to work this out, even though I’m not sure that I want to anymore?


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Any input would be much appreciated--I've told him we needed counseling but we really can't afford it and now he is going to be gone for 5 months. Should I stay married to someone who will never be on the same page as me or stimulate me intellectually?


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Honestly, your relationship sounds toxic, and without commitment from both of you and input from professional outsiders, I don't see much of a future for you. 

Doesn't the military provide counseling services? Seems you could take advantage of some individual counseling while he's gone. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Sorry, I might have misread... Is he in the military?

And for the love of god, don't have kids with him! They will NOT make things better/easier!

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CafeRed (Mar 26, 2012)

Do you both have pretty open communication with one another? Is this something you could sit down and honestly talk with your husband about? I would think that a calm discussion about your feelings (without heated emotion) might be a good start. It might also be worth your while to sit down together with a counselor - or even individual counseling - to help you sort through your thoughts and emotions. 

It's evident that you love each other very much, even though things are difficult right now. I'll be praying for you.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

I'm not sure what to advise you. I would say like everyone else, you and him need to be in marriage councilling yesterday. I can tell you that if you actually work on it, I think you two can find an answer together. I would say get into IC on your own. If you two do nothing you will surely get divorced. You have to make him understand and you need to understand that this needs to be the number one priority for you two for awhile. There is resentment that both of you have and it is poison to a marriage. 

Over time you have found reasons to leave him. I am also not entirely sure that you are correct on some of your assumptions on saying he is emotionally minipulating you. A good councillor can teach you both a lot. The key is working what they give you. Your statement "Stimulating you intellectually" is something that worries me. My stbxw said this. Again I think its your perception. He's not dumb. You two just know each other extremely well and unless he's going to school learning something that interests you he is probably not going to be able to give you anything that is stimulating. Talk to a councillor. I think one would help you a lot. If you think about it, stimulating conversation comes when two people are learning about each other, like on a date. 
There are several books out there. The 5 love languages will help you too. You need to speak his language and he needs to speak yours. I really do think you can rediscover him and be just in love with him as you were when you first married. Marriage is hard work and I applaud your effort by posting here. Keep digging don't throw it away yet. Best of Luck. I am pulling for both of you 

Also the kids thing is very important to address. He wants kids. If you don't you need to be honest with him about it. If it's the issue of not wanting to have kids with him, now but you did before, then you really need to figure out what caused you to change your mind and get that addressed in councilling. That is a huge deal to him if you don't want kids.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

PBear: He is in the National Guard--I'm not sure what they might offer as far as counseling, but I will look into it. I completely agree with you as far as not having kids with him--I'm not interested in having kids whatsoever at this point, and especially not with him after the lack of maturity he continues to exhibit. I cannot imagine putting a child through what we have been dealing with.

Cafe: Thank you for your concern. I have always tried to be very straightforward yet kind with him about my feelings, but he takes things very personally and even the gentlest approach tends to put him on the defensive. He simply doesn't hear me. By the end of our "talks" I'm usually crying out of frustration and would rather forget about the problem than continue trying to get through to him. It's led me to where I am now, giving into his physical desires without wanting to simply because it is easier. 

Thanks so much for the suggestion, I will definitely try the free counseling after he leaves.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for your advice Gonnabealright. I agree that we will need counseling if we are going to even begin fixing this. And you're right, I don't think he is consciously trying to be manipulate me--he's not the type to think that far into his actions, but his kneejerk reaction to anything approaching what he considers criticism is to become very hurt and defensive, leaving me feeling guilty. 

I'm not sure I agree as far as the mental part--there's a disconnect between us that I have felt from the beginning, even when things were all sunshine and rainbows. I get what you're saying, but maybe the term "intellectually stimulating" wasn't exactly the right way to put it. He simply won't try to engage with me on anything conversationally, unless it is about hunting, fishing or something like that. We've never been able to discuss anything deep or philosophical--he just doesn't seem to think that way.

I have told him several times that I don't see myself ever wanting children, and he usually either brushes it off as if I will change my mind later, or he gets upset with me for it.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mango_17 said:


> We've never been able to discuss anything deep or philosophical--*he just doesn't seem to think that way*.


Mango, does your H exhibit a lot of black-white thinking, wherein he tends to categorize everyone as "all good" (i.e., "with me") or "all bad" (i.e., "against me")? If so, you also would see him recategorizing someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just a few seconds -- based solely on some minor comment or infraction. This type of behavior also would be apparent in the frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "you ALWAYS..." and "you NEVER...." 

At issue is whether he shoehorns everyone (including himself) into a white or black box to avoid having to deal with ambiguities, dualities, strong mixed feelings, and the other grey areas for interpersonal relationships. A second question I would like to ask is did your H have a difficult early childhood, e.g., being emotionally abused or abandoned by a parent -- or having an emotionally unavailable mother? I am asking these two questions because you seem to be describing a man who is good hearted and well intentioned but may be very emotionally immature.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Uptown: Yes, he uses the "you never" and "you always" statements constantly when we are disagreeing. It's extremely frustrating, because I'm usually able to point out a recent incident which he seems to have forgotten that disproves his statement. For example, I do make an effort to initiate sex at least once a week despite my feelings about it. It's literally been a day or two later that he will accuse me of "never" coming on to him. 

He did have a difficult childhood, and he has issues with both his parents. I don't blame him for that; he has grown into a very respectable and motivated man despite it. His parents are both alcoholics who divorced when he was around 12, and he has little respect for either of them--however he looks out for both of them at this point, and his mother especially relies on him to do things for her. I've considered his relationship with her when thinking about the way he reacts to things, and I think "emotionally immature" is a good way to describe him.

I'm not sure if his black and white thinking is the cause of our disconnect, however. As I said, I won't say he's not intelligent...but I often feel like I have to dumb myself down in order to communicate with him. I'm not sure I truly respect him, intellectually. Considering that, I feel like he deserves someone who is more on the same page as him and will be more giving, physically.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Mango_17 said:


> Thanks for your advice Gonnabealright. I agree that we will need counseling if we are going to even begin fixing this. And you're right, I don't think he is consciously trying to be manipulate me--he's not the type to think that far into his actions, but his kneejerk reaction to anything approaching what he considers criticism is to become very hurt and defensive, leaving me feeling guilty.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree as far as the mental part--there's a disconnect between us that I have felt from the beginning, even when things were all sunshine and rainbows. I get what you're saying, but maybe the term "intellectually stimulating" wasn't exactly the right way to put it. He simply won't try to engage with me on anything conversationally, unless it is about hunting, fishing or something like that. We've never been able to discuss anything deep or philosophical--he just doesn't seem to think that way.
> *You two speak different languages and if you take it seriously I think you can connect to him again. My bet is that he has termendous pride in providing for you. It's his way of telling you he loves you. He is a man of few words. Not that he's perfect he needs to be able to communicate to you in a way that you understand it, it literally is a different language. Get this and work with him, have him read it too, do the tests together: Home | The 5 Love Languages®*
> I have told him several times that I don't see myself ever wanting children, and he usually either brushes it off as if I will change my mind later, or he gets upset with me for it.


I have personal experience with this problem addressing having children. My first question is did you marry him under the pretense that you will have children one day? It is a yes or no question. 

If you married him under the pretense of what you say "I don't ever see myself having kids" then this is a no. 

I assume it is very important to him that you have children one day. I'm afraid (just a hunch) that you never really told him that you did not want children, that you lead him along believing that you will come around to the idea. If for any reason he is under the impression you want to have children one day he will be truly hurt everytime you tell him you don't want kids. 

To me this is a deal breaker. If he does want kids and you don't its not a match unless you can get him to truly be ok with not having kids and never mention it again. He probably checks up on you to see if you've changed your mind occassionally. 

He gets upset with you about it because he does want kids. You two need to decide if you really want children or not or rather you need to decide if you want children. If the answer is no, I think it would be best for both of you if you divorce and find another person that fits what each of want. The biological drive for children in men is just as strong as women. It's just not as popular. Believe me this is a big deal.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

I've heard a lot of people recommend the 5 Love Languages, I will definitely look into it and ask him to do so as well. 

I do take responsibility for not making my feelings about having children clear to him from the beginning--whenever we discussed it I would tell him that I couldn't see myself ever wanting to, but I never have said "I don't want to have kids, ever." To be honest, I feel like I'm still too young to make that decision--but I think his goal is to settle down, buy a house and start a family a.s.a.p. Mine is to pursue my career and travel as much as possible. Since we were married right out of college and I have moved several times for him, I feel like I owe it to both of us to do those things, rather than become resentful toward him for feeling trapped.

A big issue is that he doesn't seem to have many friends. Even when we were dating and in college, he was seldom invited to go anywhere--I feel like he is relying on me more and more to boost his self-esteem. He also constantly makes crude, offensive, and sometimes racist jokes to me which I find increasingly irritating--but perhaps if he had guy friends to hang out with he would be able to express those things to them instead. However, his demeanor often rubs people the wrong way. He could also benefit from some guidance from a more mature man, as I think that's something he missed out on as a child. I would love for him to go do things with his own friends, but his world revolves around me at this point. It's suffocating, and I feel terrible for wanting to push him away but right now I can't help but wish he would leave me alone more often.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mango, the behaviors you describe -- e.g., dysfunctional childhood, black-white thinking, lack of any close friends, emotional immaturity, severe insecurity, physical and verbal abuse, and rapid flips between Jekyll (being clingy while adoring you) and Hyde (sullen withdrawals while devaluing you) -- are some of the warning signs for a well-known personality disorder. Importantly, I'm not suggesting that he has a full-blown disorder but, rather, that he might have moderate to strong traits of one. I therefore suggest you take a look at my list of 18 Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would be glad to discuss them with you.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Mango_17 said:


> I've heard a lot of people recommend the 5 Love Languages, I will definitely look into it and ask him to do so as well.
> 
> I do take responsibility for not making my feelings about having children clear to him from the beginning--whenever we discussed it I would tell him that I couldn't see myself ever wanting to, but I never have said "I don't want to have kids, ever." To be honest, I feel like I'm still too young to make that decision--but I think his goal is to settle down, buy a house and start a family a.s.a.p. Mine is to pursue my career and travel as much as possible. Since we were married right out of college and I have moved several times for him, I feel like I owe it to both of us to do those things, rather than become resentful toward him for feeling trapped.
> 
> A big issue is that he doesn't seem to have many friends. Even when we were dating and in college, he was seldom invited to go anywhere--I feel like he is relying on me more and more to boost his self-esteem. He also constantly makes crude, offensive, and sometimes racist jokes to me which I find increasingly irritating--but perhaps if he had guy friends to hang out with he would be able to express those things to them instead. However, his demeanor often rubs people the wrong way. He could also benefit from some guidance from a more mature man, as I think that's something he missed out on as a child. I would love for him to go do things with his own friends, but his world revolves around me at this point. It's suffocating, and I feel terrible for wanting to push him away but right now I can't help but wish he would leave me alone more often.


I really think you two need to discuss what you really want. Preferably with a councilor but you should clear the air with him as soon as possible, get to the bottom of your problem with each other. You don't want kids. You want to travel and you feel that he owes you this. You feel if you have children before you get to do all these things that you will resent him. Tell him that and let him answer. See if you two can come to some sort of an agreement. A time table to get vacations in and have children. Something like that. It's also ok to tell him you want your personal space, just do it nicely. I don't think that he knows you have been unhappy for a long time now. You need to tell him this.

I guess if you have tried all this I don't know what to say? Get into councilling.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Uptown: I reviewed your list and have replied to each point. I'm not sure he fits the profile for this personality disorder, but it brought up some other points that have caused conflict between us. My apologies--I'm not sure how to include a link to your list in this post.

1. Not often—when it does happen, these judgments usually involve me in some way, though. For instance, if I mention that someone annoyed me or if a man compliments me he often takes an instant disliking to them.

2. Constantly. As I mentioned, and like SoulMeetsBody said in his reply to this question, I can almost always disprove the “always” or “never” with recent examples, but he won’t acknowledge them and I will hear the same statement brought up in another argument. 

3. He has never really directly discouraged me from being with family and certain friends, but he has a favorite one or two of my female friends who he tries to encourage me to hang out with. That said, he convinced me to move back to his hometown immediately after we were married—about 5 hours away from my nearest friends or family, telling me that it would be a temporary move. Later, it was clear that he actually wanted to buy a house here, and he would get upset when I said I didn’t want to. I had to basically give him an ultimatum about a year ago to get through to him on this, and at this point he says he will be happy to live anywhere as long as he’s with me.

4. Definitely. When he is out of town I will barely hear from him as long as he knows I am home, but on the rare occasions that I do go out he has to check in with me several times throughout the night and will call the business if I don’t respond to his text or call quickly enough. 

5. In some instances, yes. He will be deliriously happy with me as long as I keep up with his sexual desires, regardless of whether I seem happy. Yet, if I resist his advances he often becomes hurt, and will accuse me of not appreciating him enough, or find something else to pick a fight about. 

6. Yes. One day I sat down on the couch next to him as he was watching TV, but I sat forward on the edge of it instead of sitting back, close to him. I had a glass of water on the coffee table that I was drinking, so it’s just a habit for me to sit that way. He immediately got unbelievably upset with me for “not wanting to be close to him” and gave me no other reason for it than the fact that I was sitting that way. There have been other instances like this which have prompted me to think he was somewhat unstable. I often have trouble keeping track of what started our fights, because he internalizes everything and uses it as ammunition later. Therefore, he will jump from one issue to another with absolutely no connection—our arguments become so pointless and circular that I feel numb by the end of them.

7. No doubt about it.

8. On the occasions that he has been like this, it has always seemed to come out of nowhere. This goes along with my answer to number 6, also. I can’t think of an instance that he has brought up an issue with me when it happened, he tends to stow these things away and use them as ammunition if he feels like I’m criticizing him. 

9. I believe so. I think this may be tied in with his insecurity and his increasingly clingy behavior.

10. He doesn’t necessarily play the victim unless I have brought up something that he’s done that bothers me and he becomes defensive. 

11. Spending has been a serious issue. He often buys things impulsively and often doesn’t tell me about it until after he has bought something. It’s extremely upsetting, as he has racked up a considerable amount of debt by indulging his impulses while I continue to wear second-hand clothes and things I’ve had since high school in order to save money.

12. He doesn’t like to discuss his prior partners—he has only had one or two committed relationships before me, neither of which lasted over a year. He has brought up the fact that one of them cheated on him with one of his friends (in high school) and used it to rationalize the way he treats me. However he doesn’t address the fact that he made a point of sleeping with her again to get back at his friend, which I found out when they brought it up and laughed about it in front of me.

13. Yes, in fact I felt like I had basically met the male version of myself. 

14. Not completely. He has always had a one-track mind as far as his own goals, and he actually has a very hard time coping with anything that interferes with them. 

15. I rarely know when he is stressed. He doesn’t exhibit signs of stress or mention feeling that way unless I tell him that I am feeling anxious about something. It’s almost like a contest with him. Most often this comes up if I tell him I am preoccupied with family or work issues and am not in the mood for sex. His reaction is to list all the things he has to worry about, many of which he has never told me about before.

16. He has one or two casual friends, and maybe two close friends he has had since high school and who live several hours away. He doesn’t make friends easily.

17. Not really, because he doesn’t really engage with many different kinds of people. He isn’t really wishy-washy like that; he is fairly judgmental and likes to express his opinion. 

18. Yes. If he feels slighted by something I’ve done, even if it is something minimal, there is nothing I can do to change his mind. This is where the “always” and “never” statements usually crop up, and no amount of evidence to the contrary will make him see things differently.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Gonnabealright said:


> I really think you two need to discuss what you really want. Preferably with a councilor but you should clear the air with him as soon as possible, get to the bottom of your problem with each other. You don't want kids. You want to travel and you feel that he owes you this. You feel if you have children before you get to do all these things that you will resent him. Tell him that and let him answer. See if you two can come to some sort of an agreement. A time table to get vacations in and have children. Something like that. It's also ok to tell him you want your personal space, just do it nicely. I don't think that he knows you have been unhappy for a long time now. You need to tell him this.
> 
> I guess if you have tried all this I don't know what to say? Get into councilling.


Thank you Gonna. I agree that we need counseling. I actually told him a few nights ago that I feel like we want very different things in life and that I don't see children in my future. He wouldn't respond to me, as usual, and at this point it is pointless to bring up any issues since he is leaving for training in 2 days. He gets very upset if he can't "leave on a good note" and blames me for adding to his stress while he's away by bringing up issues like this. Honestly, I'm sure I have contributed a lot to our issues but I feel like I'm the only one trying to get to the bottom of them.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mango, the 18 traits I listed are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW exhibits. I am not suggesting that your H has the full-blown disorder but, rather, that he may have moderate-to-strong traits. Those 18 warning signs are my expansions on the basic 9 BPD traits. To exhibit a "pattern" of BPD traits, one must exhibit most of the traits at a strong level.

Not all traits are equal, however. The most fundamental BPD trait is emotional instability, i.e., the inability to regulate one's emotions very well. If that trait is missing, the person definitely does NOT exhibit a strong pattern of BPD traits. That is the trait that warning signs 5 and 6 are targeted at -- and your responses to those two signs are quite weak, with you concluding that he may be "somewhat unstable."

If you would like to read more about these warning signs, you may want to take a look at my more detailed description of them in http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. Again, if you are not seeing emotional instability, you are not seeing a pattern of warning signs for having strong BPD traits.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

You know I will tell that you can pursue your career while having kids. Most companies these days will work with a pregnant women. Also this philsophical conversation you mentioned, unless he has in fact studied philosphy he won't understand what your talking about. In my opinion philsophy is a good classroom discussion and really doesn't have much of an impact in the real world. Actually most of it is debatable, which probably makes him mad too. 

I just don't think you want the same things as him. I don't know his opinion exactly. I don't think he has BP or any other mood disorder. I really think his and yours opinions differ on what marriage actually is. You both married young and without seeming offensive, I think you sound a wee bit immature yourself on how marriage works as well. Marriage is a lot of things. It is not usually done without children. Traveling the world and pursuing a career are usually done before you get married. I'm not saying there isn't someone out there like that for you but I just think you or him changed along the way, didn't really know what was involved in being married or had a false idea of what marriage is. Good luck to you. Please keep posting. I'd really like to see you two make it through this.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Uptown: Some of the comments listed in that post really struck a chord with me. Particlularly the following:

"She seems to see things as right or wrong with no ability to give leeway or explain away a mistake."

"99 good things in the week are overshadowed by the 1 mistake I have made."

"She quotes me incorrectly, I try to tell her that’s not what I said, she doesn't argue about it but she will always come back to the quote and it goes in a huge circle again. It seems as if she is stuck in a loop."

"I can't criticise her in any way no matter how I sugar coat it "

"No real empathy for others."

"I think am starting to struggle to cope, my ability to keep my mind straight has reduced, I some times can't remember my drive to work, its as if I have the entire drive missing from my memory,"

And especially:

"There’s a chance that maybe I am totally insane and this is a very warped view of what is really going on. I really do hope it is me going mad because I know that I can fix that! " 

This last statement is a thought that has been running through my mind for the last couple of years. This is why I felt the need to get an outside perspective--between the incorrect quotes, wild assumptions, circular arguments and memory lapses I have wondered if I'm losing it.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

In fact, if I had a dollar for every time I have said "You make me ****ing crazy!" during an argument, I could definitely afford therapy. This is probably part of why I'm hesitant to accuse him of being more than "somewhat" unstable.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Gonnabealright said:


> You know I will tell that you can pursue your career while having kids. Most companies these days will work with a pregnant women. Also this philsophical conversation you mentioned, unless he has in fact studied philosphy he won't understand what your talking about. In my opinion philsophy is a good classroom discussion and really doesn't have much of an impact in the real world. Actually most of it is debatable, which probably makes him mad too.
> 
> I just don't think you want the same things as him. I don't know his opinion exactly. I don't think he has BP or any other mood disorder. I really think his and yours opinions differ on what marriage actually is. You both married young and without seeming offensive, I think you sound a wee bit immature yourself on how marriage works as well. Marriage is a lot of things. It is not usually done without children. Traveling the world and pursuing a career are usually done before you get married. I'm not saying there isn't someone out there like that for you but I just think you or him changed along the way, didn't really know what was involved in being married or had a false idea of what marriage is. Good luck to you. Please keep posting. I'd really like to see you two make it through this.


 You're absolutely right; the job I have now has excellent benefits and the company I work for is very accommodating. I'm not trying to use my pursuit of a career as an excuse for not having children--in fact, I don't feel obliged to justify my reasons for that to anyone but my husband. 

Regarding my use of the term "philosophical," I must apologize as I don't think I've done a very good job of making my point clear. What I'm referring to is having a natural curiosity and a drive to learn about the world, its places, its people and why they do the things they do. It isn't something a person needs to take a class for, nor does it determine a person's level of intelligence in my opinion--it's simply a quality I admire and find frustratingly lacking in my relationship. 

I agree that I am fairly immature when it comes to relationships; I mentioned in an earlier post that we married young and had unresolved issues. I don't think he has any kind of disorder, either--I'm sure he could point out several items on the list I responded to that describe me, as well. But you've hit the nail on the head, we do want different things and that's the core issue here.

My husband left yesterday for 5 months of training in preparation for a job that he's been working toward for three years. When he finishes this training, he could be placed anywhere in the state for an undetermined amount of time. We have a long way to go before we could consider starting a family. I brought up my concerns with him before he left, and we had a rather heartbreaking discussion. Neither of us wants to consider divorce, but I'm afraid that I may never want children. If that's the case, I will have to let him go and find someone who can give him the family he deserves.

Thank you, and everyone else who has responded to this. Your feedback has been very helpful--there were some things that I didn't want to hear, but needed to, and I truly appreciate it.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Mango_17 said:


> You're absolutely right; the job I have now has excellent benefits and the company I work for is very accommodating. I'm not trying to use my pursuit of a career as an excuse for not having children--in fact, I don't feel obliged to justify my reasons for that to anyone but my husband.
> 
> Regarding my use of the term "philosophical," I must apologize as I don't think I've done a very good job of making my point clear. What I'm referring to is having a natural curiosity and a drive to learn about the world, its places, its people and why they do the things they do. It isn't something a person needs to take a class for, nor does it determine a person's level of intelligence in my opinion--it's simply a quality I admire and find frustratingly lacking in my relationship.
> 
> ...


I commend you on talking to him about it. It's very hard to realize and even harder to dissolve a marriage because you two have or gone in different directions. 

I'm sorry you are here. I hope you find the courage to leave him or he finds the courage to leave you. When two people stay married unhappily it leads to more hurt trying to fullfil needs elsewhere and more resentment. It is better to end it sooner then later. It's a very hard to do but I think in the near future you will be happier and so will he. Good Luck.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks Gonna. Well, a bit of an update after a discussion we had over the phone last night.

Wednesday evening I decided to go have a glass of wine and visit with some friends at the bar. I also bought a pack of cigarettes, even though I don't normally smoke that often. I was feeling pretty down and self-destructive and wanted to be around people and forget about this whole thing for a few hours. Probably not the best choice, but I couldn't bear the thought of sitting at home alone and dwelling on it another night. 

Anyway, it worked--time flew by and by the time I left it was almost 1:30 a.m. I made the mistake of telling my H that I would probably be home earlier as I hadn't planned on being there that long. Needless to say, he was pretty upset--he called the bar as I was about to leave and was not impressed with me. The next day, he told me that with the new job he is taking there will have to be some changes--he won't go out like that socially any more, he will accompany me if I do and we will not stay out that late again. He says he is afraid that our behavior will affect his reputation as a police officer. He accused me of "losing control" and often uses this term if we are out socially in situations that I want to stay and he wants to leave.

I know I probably should have gone home earlier, and it was a mistake not to tell him I was going to be out later. This isn't something I do frequently, maybe once a week or less, and our town is so small that we both know all the staff, owners, and regular customers at all the businesses. Also, I am always mindful of my intake--I can stretch a glass of wine out for an hour or so and I never drink liquor, so his assumption that I was "out of control" really irked me. 

I'm not saying that he’s wrong, but I feel like this is another sign that we might not be right for each other. When we started dating, he always enjoyed going out and socializing like this and we had a lot of fun together. The idea that he thinks I'm going to embarrass him and he feels the need to "rein me in" now really bothers me. We talked about how I don't want kids again, and he told me that maybe I should consider that the reason I'm not satisfied with my situation is because I don't have a baby. He actually insinuated that it might not be a career I really need, and a child could "fill that hole." I was stunned. When I told him how crazy that sounded, he became defensive and started throwing what-ifs at me. "What would you do if I said I’d pay for you to get your tubes tied tomorrow? What if I got a vasectomy? What if we split up and I see you ten years from now and you have a whole cabbage patch of kids?!"

I told him those were ridiculous questions, but that I wouldn't let him get a vasectomy that he clearly doesn’t want because he deserves to have a family of his own, even if it's not with me. He brought up the fact that he hasn't been happy with me for a while either. I can't blame him, he wants/needs more affection and to be feel loved and appreciated. I know this is something I should be doing for him, but most of the time I don't feel that way anymore and when I do try to act like I'm attracted to or feel loving toward him, it leaves me feeling cheap and guilty. I love him and care about him very much, but I feel indifferent toward him when it comes to intimacy and affection and have been struggling with this for over a year. Right now I feel like a terrible person who's probably not ready for marriage. He texted me a minute ago to say he's looking forward to seeing me when he gets home next week, and I can hardly bring myself to lie and say I miss him, too. Both of us are afraid to leave, but I don’t see how we can continue limping along like this when we both want different things.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

There are many men that will react like that when their wife goes out drinking. To me you minimized it by saying you only did it once a week. Thats a lot. You spending time with other men. A women alone in a bar is an invitation. It tells the men at the bar you are available. I don't want to preach because you know this. It's just not for you. Happy married couples dont do this and if they do they generally do it together. 

He wants you at home raising babies. Not living an independent lifestyle going to bars. He tells you he thinks that it would fill the hole that is missing because it is missing in him too. He wants to be a man that supports his family. He wants his wife to be taking care of kids and raising the family while he has a career and supports the family financially. I would be embarrassed too especially if I was a cop. You know this as well. I know its hard for you to see pride in what he wants. It's like asking a polar bear if he is comfortable in the desert. It's just not you. 

Like you said your limping along pretending to be happy. Please let him go. I know you feel like sh!t. I sympathize with you. You don't want what he wants. He doesn't want you want. Your never going to get along if one of you doesn't give up on trying to change the other. It's not gonna happen. You want independence. Go get it. Once your divorced find a guy that doesn't want kids. Your not wrong for wanting that. Your wrong if you want him to be like that. He's wrong for wanting you to want what he wants. One of you would have to have a complete reversal in what they want in order for that to happen. The cards are on the table. You can see it as plan as day. Trust your gut and do what is right and you'll be better off for it. Your old enough to know being a mother is not want you want. If you don't know now you probably will never want it. Yes, there is a good probability that you will regret it but I don't think youll see that for a long time from now if you ever do, you might not. I don't know how to tell you how to make you want to have kids. Your not alone and your not wierd. There are numerous women on this site that feel the same way. My stbxw is just like you. You have a good heart and your not a cheater. Get divorced before that changes too.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Brief update:

Two weeks ago we decided to meet up and spend a weekend together at a hotel rather than have him drive all the way home. We also thought it would be a good idea to spend some time together out of the house and try to relax a little while we discussed things. 

First night went okay, we had a serious talk and shed some tears but I felt much better for getting everything out in the open. We ended up sleeping together--in hindsight, this was a bad decision on my part.
The second night, we met some of his family who happened to be in town and had a couple drinks with them at the hotel bar. Throughout the evening, he kept making subtle suggestions and innuendos, which I brushed off. When we went back to the room, he tried to initiate sex. Feeling tired, I tried to gently decline. Immediately the tantrum started again. He kept asking me why I "wanted it earlier" but didn't now. I told him I hadn't given him any reason to think I was interested in that earlier, and that even if I had the answer was no now.
He jumped up and started getting dressed, telling me that he was leaving (in the middle of the night). We argued, and he finally gave up the act and stopped packing. I moved to the other bed, and after a while he crawled in next to me and tried to hold me, but made it clear that he was still frustrated with me and felt that I was in the wrong.

I wish I could say this incident surprised me. That very day I had told him how those reactions made me feel and that it was a large part of my falling out of love with him. He'd agreed and apologized and promised to work on it, then proceeded to pull the same sh*t hours later.

Now, he is posting all sorts of broken heart songs on his social media account and telling me how easy it seems for me to want to leave--making me feel guilty again. I've asked him not to contact me unless it's necessary, and am working on getting a job in a town closer to my family as soon as possible. He is coming home tomorrow for the weekend, and I am practically dreading it. I guess it's time for me to rip off the band-aid and get this overwith, it's just very difficult to do while I'm living in the midst of his family and I'm probably going to be made out as the bad guy. Any support would be much appreciated right now.


----------



## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mango, thanks so much for giving us an update. If he has moderate to strong BPD traits as you suspected, the temper tantrum on night #2 at the hotel is to be expected. Are you still thinking he is only "somewhat unstable"? I ask because, as I noted earlier, anyone having strong BPD traits will be emotionally unstable -- which typically is most evident in the rapid flips from adoring you to devaluing you (and back again). Hence, if you are not seeing instability, you're not seeing a strong pattern of BPD warning signs.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Hello Uptown,

I'm not sure that I'm in a position to judge his mental stability, just because I'm so close to him. He is definitely very emotionally immature--he continues to post songs and articles on social media that are obviously directed at me, yet won't attempt to actually talk to me about the way he is feeling. It makes me wonder whether he is truly trying to express his emotions or if he is trying to make me feel guilty about wanting to leave. He seems preoccupied with the idea of me finding someone else--all of our talks about seperation have ended with him bringing this up as his major concern.
This seems shallow and possessive to me. I'm not sure if I mentioned this yet, but when I asked him if he thought we would have stayed together this long if not for our shared interest in hunting, his response was, "Well, besides that, you're pretty hot..." This was all he could come up with, and I've grown so sick of being valued for this that I feel very uncomfortable when anyone compliments me on my appearance.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

BPD or not he's not very immature. Having tantrums over not getting any is an immature reaction. I stopped doing that around twenty. That was all his fault. Don't feel bad about that. You didn't do anything wrong. Being in your situation is already messy and uncomfortable. 

I can tell you from a guys point of view he was assuming he was getting some because he got some a couple of days earlier. I too can completely over look a serious discussion hurtful as it can be and still want to have sex. 

For a man to want children and raise a family, he's not ready for that. I think he might be in love with the idea of doing it but no way is ready to actually do it. Be glad your getting out now. Hang in there.


----------



## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

First off do not have children with this man, at least not until you are 100% sure things have changed, im not talking month or even a year of good behavior and emotional connection, im talking like half a decade, you are still young, no need to rush on having children. Most military men do have that barefoot and pregnant view of women so it would come as no surprise if he pressures you on having children. Some can change and go through rough patches in their life. Also being newly married everyone refers to it as a “honeymoon” period I can vouch that name is completely inaccurate, the first two years of my marriage were miserable, but that’s too long of a story to tell here.

You need to stop the physical arguing, someone is going to get hurt or end up in jail, its just not worth it. If it reaches that level you just need to stop and leave the area and tell him you will be happy to continue the conversation once we cool down.

As far as sex goes it is an integral part of marriage, while its not requires it is certainly expected. I think by being intimate at least twice a week, even when youre not always interested means you are trying your best to make him happy and keep the relationship positive. Sex is the glue that holds a marriage together. Considering the average marriage couple has sex about 100 times a year I would say he should not be complaining.

As far as the Australia event goes leave it in the past, try not to think about it and never bring it up again. You were dating only 2 months and were both young, don’t dwell on something that insignificant. In regards to the lingerie coffee shop I would let that go too. Everyone’s opinion on “cheating” is different. My wife says if I look porn that’s cheating, but I have a friend whose wife doesn’t care if he goes to strip clubs. What if it was a regular coffee shop but they had dirty magazine for people to look at, would that have bothered you? Its basically the same thing, looking but not touching.

In regards to having things in common you wont have everything thing, but as link as you have a couple key things that’s all you need. Maybe you both like to run, ride bikes, garden, etc…but you don’t need to spend every minute of everyday talking and doing things together, its actually health to have some time apart in participate in other activities with people outside of the marriage and your immediate family. If you don’t have much in common try and find something.

He has some decent qualities, such as being hard working, motivated, does chores, etc… those are all valuable traits many women can only dream of their husbands having, just read the forums on this website, countless posts of husbands addicted to drugs and gambling, alcoholics, abusive parents, guys who cheat (and not at a coffee shop), men with secrets lives, hidden bank accounts and even more insane things than that. I myself get so frustrated when I work my butt off around the house, cooking dinner, doing dishes, at the same time running a load of laundry, cleaning up, feeding the dog, etc… and my wife comes home late from work and doesn’t say a thing, not “thanks for dinner” nothing! She acts like motivated, caring, thoughtful and attractive husbands are a dime a dozen.

But in the end wanting to continue on with the marriage and continue to put more effort into it is all up to you. If you have had enough and your guts is saying its over then now is the time to move on as you are young and still have plenty of time to meet someone else and his upcoming deployments will be a good timing to end it. But at the same time be careful not to fall for “the grass being greener on the other side of the fence” Honestly I think the two of you would benefit from marriage counseling, sadly many people see marriage counseling as a bad thing, as if they have failed at their marriage, when in all reality it’s the opposite, it means you are taking your marriage seriously and want to be as successful as possible and on way to do that is to go to a counselor who will teach you better communication techniques, non-verbal and verbal communication, how to express feelings, how to properly listen not just nod your head (a good one for men) and help guide you through tough arguments. A lot of married couple go to therapy on a regular basis just as preventative maintenance. Its kind of like a car, you can replace the oil every 3000 miles no matter what or you can wait till it runs out of oil and the engine explodes and then try and fix it. Deal with the small issues before they become BIG issues.

EDIT: I posted this having only read your first post. It appears the quality of the marriage has declined since then and he is handling the issue very immaturely. Keep us updated on how things are going.

~T


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Personally, you're only 25. You shouldn't be in this much of a mess at that age. TRUST me, it will only get worse, not better. Move out. If he really wants you back, he can listen to what you need in a marriage and figure out how to fix what's keeping him from being that person - therapy, soul searching, addressing his parents...

And if he's not willing to do those things, you're better off knowing NOW.

Bottom line, he won't take you seriously as long as you're accepting it.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It's been very helpful. Turnera, I think you put into words what I've recently come to realize--he has to work on himself before a healthy relationship is possible for him.

I had an epiphany the other day after I spent several minutes on the phone encouraging him to talk to someone else, friend or family, about what is going on and how he is feeling. I told him that I've talked to a few close family members about it, and he was a little upset. He was worried about them finding out about his behavior, and what they would think of him. It made me realize that I'm really not in the wrong here, and thinking back on the instances where he has gotten physical--it has escalated over the years. It really took telling someone about it for me to realize how wrong it is.

As far as him seeking help, I don't really think he will do it. As you've no doubt noticed, he has not learned to express his emotions in a healthy way and seems incapable of introspection. 

I am applying for jobs closer to my family, and planning to move as soon as possible. It's still hard for me to want to be completely done, though I can't explain why other than a general fear of the unknown--but moving out will be a huge step.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm proud of you. And don't be scared. We're safer today than ever, so moving and getting new jobs has never been safer.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mango_17 said:


> Any input would be much appreciated--I've told him we needed counseling but we really can't afford it and now he is going to be gone for 5 months. Should I stay married to someone who will never be on the same page as me or stimulate me intellectually?


I find it interesting that you phrase your question the way you do as different interests are hardly the major problem in your marriage.

Few couples like 100% of the same things. You both connect on the out activities. You like the arts. If this was the only issue with the marriage, then there is nothing wrong with you having other friends who fill the artsy/intellectual part of your interests.

There are some major problems in your marriage.....

Your husband has been physically abusive of you to some extent. And it sounds like you are sometimes physically abusive back. 

You are not really physically attracted to your husband and he knows it. This is a major issue. If he were he I would advise him to leave you on this issue alone. It's horribly emotionally painful to be with someone who is not attract to you. This might account for why he seems to be clinging to you. He's emotionally attached to you, goes to you for emotional intimacy (sex is emotional intimacy) and he gets either rejected or duty sex. This would hurt anyone (male or female).

Between the physical violence and your lack of attraction to your husband, I just don't see this marriage working.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

If you ever get a chance listen to Dr Laura's show. Shes on siriusXM radio. channel 88. 2pm to 5pm Eastern time.


----------



## Mango_17 (Mar 25, 2014)

So, looks like it's really over. Last night he called me and we talked for an hour or so. He told me he had changed his mind about having kids, and that he didn't care if we ever did. He wants to start over, travel, do things I'm interested in and generally bend over backwards to make me happy. He also swore to never lay a hand on me again or throw the tantrums, etc. 

I know how much he really wants children someday, and as far as the other promises..I don't really believe them either. I'm not sure I could love him again even if he did follow through, and I don't think it's right for me to ask him to change so much. I pointed out my lack of physical attraction for him, and our lack of mutual respect for each other--then asked him to think about what he was truly trying to save. He couldn't come up with anything specific, just that he doesn't want to lose me. He basically tried to give me control of the entire situation, saying he would do anything I wanted as long as I told him there was still a chance for us. 

Long story short, I told him he deserved someone who loves him for who he is, not someone who needs him to jump through hoops. I won't do that to him, and I felt like I had dragged this out long enough. He suggested we could seperate until he finishes his schooling and was able to get a position in the town that I am moving to, with the stipulation that we would remain committed to each other. At this point I knew we had come to the end of things. This time period could be anywhere from 9 months to over a year, and all I could think about was him being alone, faithfully waiting for me to magically change my mind. And, as awful as it sounds, I had to be honest and tell him that although I am not looking for or interested in anyone else, I can't agree to committing to another year of feeling this alone and unhappy--particularly when I don't feel like there's anything left to save. 

He is going to come and pack a few things up this weekend. I am feeling pretty sad and still a little conflicted today. It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel right now, but I know this is for the best for both of us.


----------



## Gonnabealright (Oct 24, 2013)

Good for you. Now go file and make it real. I support your decision. He is desperate not to lose you. I am truly sorry for both of you. It's sad to see you comtributing to the body count of all the dead marriages, but like you said, you both will be better off. He just doesn't see it yet as well as you do. 

He's lost focused on himself and what he wants and it hasn't settled with him yet, so be aware of that. Don't be alone walking to the car, maybe get some mace, just in case. Hang in there kiddo.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You never know the future, ok? This may be the 'thing' that changes his life. He may come back in 3 or 4 years, a changed man. Or you may find someone else. But at least you won't be stuck in a harmful situation.


----------



## pakmenu (May 24, 2014)

Of all marriages going wrong, this one seems to be savable to me. He works hard at the relationship, he needs to get less sensitive about his sexdrive being bigger then yours, but.. i do think it's best for marriage to try to always please eachother. if this were the experienceproject website someone would have already advised you to maybe try out an open relationship and let him get some of that drive worked out elsewhere. Some seem to be very happy with the results. The other advise is that i think he shouln't work in the army as it'll make his psychological problems worse for sure, especially when going on duty. you should certainly find some of the couse for harsh and racistic jokes there. I would also think about what turns you on. I know certain attitudes men have or don't have are important to women, (his body is already attractive) so think of it and help him be more attractive by telling him what behaviour will turn you on. He's obviously (you said he became more clingy) capable of changing his behaviour, which is a good thing (when it was intentional). I think your lack of attraction is just because of that: his clingy behaviour point to emotional dependancy on you, and that's not good. I think it'll be very good for hiom to have a more social life, having more friends, anything that will boost his self esteem. 

You on the other hand might benefit from some relationships with people that CAN match your interests, again up to you if that includes intimacy, on the long run open relationships have small success rates, but: STAYING in a situation you feel UNHAPPY in also has a low success rate in ending happily! in any case the more happier you make yourself, and take care of your needs, the better position you have to be a loving giving partner, and same counts for him.

PS: i'm yelous in a way, my marriage: twice a month we have sex, and in the last 3 years she never initiated nor had an orgasm... it's really sad, and she can't explain to me why.


----------



## Whome? (May 17, 2014)

Please leave for your own sake. Sooner than later. Your story has many red flags. Nothing love languages or counseling will fix. His temper will get worse and I am scared for you.


----------



## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Just between me and you, I think that this is the perfect time to execute your retrograde strategy. Do it before he returns from school. He is not going to be happy, but what you have described is no way to live.


----------

