# She claims to not remember. No closure for me.



## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Yes. I really am whining about this again. I had an "episode" this weekend and I need to unload. 

Quick recap. My wife had a bit of a post partem party spree at nightclubs and bars with her married wingwoman a while back. Always just the two of them. Always told me at the last minute so we couldn't talk about it. Leaving me with the toddler and infant with no warning. Home at 2:30 AM. Never knew where she went. Any question beyond "did you have fun?" the next day was viewed as an interrogation. But what kind of paranoid Neanderthal husband would have a problem with his wife going out for a little innocent dancing every now and then, right?

Problem is, it happened a long time ago. If there were forums like this back then I didn't know about them. I didn't know it would be appropriate for a modern, together husband to question this activity, so I just sucked it up. The partying ended with a fight (long story, I'll spare you), but I was the insecure bad guy that stopped this innocent activity because I couldn't handle it. No closure for me then.

Her actions screamed infidelity, but I was in denial. Kept that denial going for years. It popped back up into my head about 6 months ago, so I went looking for help on the internet. I came on this and other forums and realized that it was surely pretty bad back then. After a few weeks of posting and reading old posts on the subject, I "confronted" her. She claims to not even remember. After a few fights I realized the subject was closed. I'm now even more of a bad guy. No closure for me now.

I've been obsessed about it for 6 months now. I keep looking for a smoking gun. This weekend I had the great idea to look at old credit card records to see if she ever put a cover charge on the card (for some reason they never seemed to have to spend money on drinks while out). No charges from a nightclub, but there were weekly Weight Watchers charges (yes. believe it or not that is the "episode"). She's had 2 successful runs at Weight Watchers since I've known her, and I'd totally blocked out that this clubbing spree coincided with one. She was looking good after her second kid, so what does she do? Goes out and seeks attention from other men at meat markets. 

I just set myself back 4 months on this healing process. The hardest part is to make it look like nothing is wrong when I'm with her now. I hate it. I'm never going to get over this.


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## MarriedinVegas (Apr 8, 2010)

My suggestion would be to start today to get over it. 
Let it go. 
But from today forward stand up for yourself and dont be afraid to ask the questions.
If you keep harping on the past it will come back and haunt you in some way. Either you will find something out that is over and done with that will cause new trouble for you today or tomorrow or you will annoy her so much about the past that your relationship will never move forward.
Pay attention to her today like yesterday never happened, and your life should always move forward in a positive manner. 
Throwing old garbage in ones face never does any good.
Its baggage you need to drop or you will forever live in self pity.
Thats my opinion.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Great advice Vegas. I just wish I could do it.


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Here comes the lie detector nuts.....


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

martino said:


> Here comes the lie detector nuts.....


As I mentioned above, the hardest part is making it look like it's not bothering me. A close second, however, is trying NOT to threaten her w/ a LD test. Man, would THAT fook things up!


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## scarletblue (May 20, 2009)

Hey Cody,

Sorry you are still having problems with this. I just have a couple thoughts, don't know if they will be helpful or not....

I hope you can find some way for you and your wife to communicate better. I think if you two are both "in sync" with each other and more open, then maybe you can open that conversation back up and finally put it behind you. I also think you two both need to be very secure in your relationship for that to happen.

If these nights out have stopped, are you two getting along better (aside from the persistant questions in your mind)?

The one thing that worries me is this: What do you want for your future? Do you want a happy future with your wife, or do you want to know every detail about her nights out in the past? I worry that you may be risking one to get the other.

Hang in there.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

As a betrayed spouse, I can tell you that things are best when I live in the present. I only found out in December, but have suffered, considerably, and find that living in the now is the most freeing....unless you want retribution, punishment, apologies, etc. In this case, doesn't look like you're going to get that since she claims not to remember. She may well remember. but be embarrassed. In any case, she is still with you and I would make the most of it by being her friend and suitor, now. Court her and build your relationship.

I've lived a good deal of my life not getting apologies I deserved from others (family members) and was hung up on it for a while. At some point, I decided that their apologies didn't matter, I wasn't at their mercy and could make my life what I wanted it to be.

I hope things go well for you and you can get to a happy, contented place.

Best,

Lyn


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

As a betrayed spouse, I can tell you that things are best when I live in the present. I only found out in December, but have suffered, considerably, and find that living in the now is the most freeing....unless you want retribution, punishment, apologies, etc. In this case, doesn't look like you're going to get that since she claims not to remember. She may well remember. but be embarrassed. In any case, she is still with you and I would make the most of it by being her friend and suitor, now. Court her and build your relationship.

I've lived a good deal of my life not getting apologies I deserved from others (family members) and was hung up on it for a while. At some point, I decided that their apologies didn't matter, I wasn't at their mercy and could make my life what I wanted it to be.

I hope things go well for you and you can get to a happy, contented place.

Best,

Lyn


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Cody, this is all about YOU and has nothing to do with her or her behavior. You have some major issues that you are not facing. She can never give you the closure you seek b/c this isn't at all about her. Your obsessiveness in recent months is basically the evidence--you probably have some other issue in your life and are obsessing about this as a way of avoiding that, or you subconsciously feel the marriage isn't working for you, so you obsess about this b/c you aren't really aware of what's going on to make you feel threatened. 

Time for some professional help, I'd say--and that isn't meant snidely at all. You've done your best to get past this, but it isn't working. Don't destroy your marriage--accept that you need some help, then get it. At some point, marriage counseling may be in order. But you need to get a grip on why you are letting the past haunt you, b/c that is what this is about. 

Good luck!


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Cody, There are problems here you are not seeing. First. God made us (guys) with a certain "Respect" expectation. So when our pride or respect is challenged with the person that is supposed to complete us, it will just continue to eat at us. Then there is certain "Selfishness" between the both of you. But I have a feeling most of it is within you. But there is a way to get to the bottom of it. PM me to discuss further.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

Communication is a big part of the problem. For both of us. I don't know how and she won't. The big problem started with "confronting her". I won't go into details, but it wasn't "I have this problem from many years ago and I'd like you to help me out it". It was more like "why did you cheat on me you lying *****". Not good. Since then I have pleaded with her to help and she continues to clam up.

What's made it harder is that in all of the talking we've tried to do over the past 6 months, things just keep getting worse. There's always been a lack of intimacy in our relationship, and a few years ago sex just stopped. I made it out in my head to be a big part of the same problem (she didn't like intimacy with me but searched for it in bars, get it?). So I brought THAT problem up with her during all of this. She agreed to start fixing that, so now I have a blow-up doll that breathes. The only difference is that a blow-up doll wouldn't hate sex with me as much. 

She claims she doesn't remember the partying. She claims that she DOES like sex with me, it's just my imagination. Fine, the former is MY problem (I let her go out, after all). The latter is OUR problem, but she won't talk to me about that either. 

My wife claims to want to forget it all and start over. Fine. I might be able to get over the partying if she would start acting like she wants to actually commit to the marriage. Loveless sex I'm OK with. A wife who'd rather sit in front of the TV than spend time with me I'm used to. The images of her practically running away from her family with no notice, no explanation and no respect to go and party with strange men will be harder. These images of her in a pounding nightclub, flirting with men, dancing with men and god knows what else with men disgust and hurt me. I can't forgive her. I can't get over it. 

And I'm trying. I've been going it individual counseling for 4 months now. Seems like a waste of time, but I'm sticking with it. My wife won't get on board. I just think think about things too much, so she says. Forget and move on. If she'll get on board with some if it, maybe I will be able to deal with the rest.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Definitely, your communication is suffering. Is she says she enjoys sex with you and you don't believe what she tells you, that's troubling to me, because it seems to me that no matter what she says about anything, there is a good chance you won't believe it.

There's a lot of hostility and resentment towards her and that doesn't go away with someone else apology or someone else's behavior. The only one who can manage the anger you have is you, so if it were me, I would really delve into all of the sources of your fury, even before your marriage and if this counselor isn't doing it for you, find another. Ultimately, the decision to heal or be crippled is yours, but a good guide (counselor) can be very helpful.

You can try to hold her feet to the fire about all manner of things, but this will suffocate any love she feels for you and can ultimately become abusive, emotionally. Demanding justice doesn't make it happen, so you have to work on you.

Lyn


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

sisters359 said:


> Cody, this is all about YOU and has nothing to do with her or her behavior. You have some major issues that you are not facing. She can never give you the closure you seek b/c this isn't at all about her. *Your obsessiveness in recent months is basically the evidence--you probably have some other issue in your life and are obsessing about this as a way of avoiding that, or you subconsciously feel the marriage isn't working for you*, so you obsess about this b/c you aren't really aware of what's going on to make you feel threatened.
> 
> *Time for some professional help*, I'd say--and that isn't meant snidely at all. You've done your best to get past this, but it isn't working. Don't destroy your marriage--accept that you need some help, then get it. At some point, marriage counseling may be in order. But you need to get a grip on why you are letting the past haunt you, b/c that is what this is about.
> 
> Good luck!


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

You have been obsessing about this for literally MONTHS NOW, there's never been any evidence of any wrong doing, and no matter what she may or may not do, it's never "fixed" or over. This is not about her or her behavior--it's about you. 

I also strongly encourage you to seek out an individual counselor for your obsessive behavior and wish you well.


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

During our discussions over the past 6 months, my wife gave me some reasons why she hasn't loved me as much as she wanted to over the years. Many years. She was right, and it devistated me to know that our lack of intimacy was something that, if not my fault, was mine to control. I've lost many years of love with a woman I adore, and I could have changed it. 

During therollercoaster ride that has been the past 6 months of my life, we experimented with loving each other again. It was great, but I f'd it up (see above posts by cody5). I can control getting it back and I'm going to start now. I started this morning, as a matter of fact. Just a little, but it was nice. It can be nicer with work.

It's rare that you get all responder in almost perfect agreement. It's what I've always paid lip-service to anyhow, but it's time to do something now. I don't like the general advice of "go to a therapist". The other half of that is you need to go for the right reasons. I have a plan for making myself a better person and I've already started to implement it.

Scarlet, you asked me if I want a happy future with my wife. The answer is yes, I do. And I know I can control it. It will be hard, but I'm going to do it.

Thank you all,
cody


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cody5 said:


> Communication is a big part of the problem. For both of us. I don't know how and she won't. The big problem started with "confronting her". I won't go into details, but it wasn't "I have this problem from many years ago and I'd like you to help me out it". It was more like "why did you cheat on me you lying *****". Not good. Since then I have pleaded with her to help and she continues to clam up.


Uh, gee...I wonder why.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

cody5 said:


> I don't like the general advice of "go to a therapist". The other half of that is you need to go for the right reasons. I have a plan for making myself a better person and I've already started to implement it.


Honestly, you do have serious control/insecurity issues.

How on earth do you think you can overcome them by yourself?

Go to a person who went to _at least_ 5 years of college to learn _exactly how_ to help you overcome them, ok?

We don't expect our vet to be able to fix our plumbing, do we?


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

turnera said:


> Uh, gee...I wonder why.



Maybe 1500 posts since Jan is too many. You can't really give enough thought to each one to make it worth while. Some just come off snide and ignorant. For example, not only do you make it obvious that you didn't read my admission of past mistakes in the post directly above yours, but even the one you quoted is an admission of a huge mistake of mine. So you're either lazy or just felt like rubbing it in, and I don't see you as being that insensitive.

Hmmm... :scratchhead:


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

turnera said:


> Honestly, you do have serious control/insecurity issues.
> 
> How on earth do you think you can overcome them by yourself?
> 
> ...


Yeah. You sound like a guy with 5 years experience helping people. I'm having enough trouble with the one I chose 4 months ago. Do me a favor and don't help me any more. Thanks anyhow.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry if I came across as harsh, but really, are you even looking at yourself?

Fine with me to let you get professional help, as long as you are going to get someone to help you with the issues YOU have that helped your relationship reach its current condition.

There was a guy on another forum who found out his wife made three _phone calls_ with her old flame. He had control issues, too. He DEMANDED that she apologize and recant and ADMIT she had had an affair. In effect he wanted her to paint a scarlet letter on her forehead. She refused. They then went down this tortuous death spiral, neither of them willing to give in, until they were about a day away from her leaving him in disgust.

Now, if he had gone to her in humility and said, 'it's killing me to think you don't love me. what have I done? can I fix it?' she would have admitted the three phone calls immediately.

But instead, he attacked her. So she pulled back. Plain and simple. And he went into this 50-page diatribe on the forum to try to get everyone to agree with him that she had had an affair. With three phone calls. That she ended by saying 'I'm married and I shouldn't be talking to you.' And those of us who suggested that HE had had a part in the problem...I'll just say he was a heck of a lot nastier than you are now thinking I am. Just because we dared question his 50%.

Instead of asking for advice, all he wanted was to be vindicated. He didn't care about fixing his marriage, or looking at himself, or ever making his wife happy again. All he wanted was for her to admit an affair and beg forgiveness (his words). And he nearly lost her for it. Maybe he eventually did.

Not saying that's your situation, but the ferocity you described in attacking her reminded me of that guy - and his outcome. And I do think your wife did more than that. However...the _solution_ is totally in your hands. You're the one here asking for advice, so it's gotta be you learning right now, how to fix your 50%. I'm a huge believer - and BTDT - in fixing your side so that your spouse WANTS to fix theirs, even if you don't feel like it or feel wronged. It does work.

Best of luck.

PS, he did the exact same thing you did. He went back and looked at my number of posts, and made a comment about my worthiness. To discredit me, or shame me, or just to 'win'? IDK. But I thought it was interesting to mention.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

Yeah, the therapist thing always annoys me, too, and we are still waiting to get into one, however, it's taking so long that things are progressing without the therapist. It can be done. I think you are pretty open about your responsibility and behavior and that, most of all, is what is necessary. In our case, obstacles popped up which convinced me that we needed a third party, however, my husband was highly motivated to change his behavior (communication style.) His commitment and dedication to making things better has been the force behind our progress, so it can definitely be done, and, as with anything else? It begins in your head, which you are doing. Congratulations.

Lyn


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

If you have been going for 4 months w/o progress, it's time to talk to your doctor. You are obsessing, and that is not normal. 

I agree that you do not seem to trust anything she says. You are convinced she "cheated" and your self-image is so wounded that you have lashed out in anger to her and on here. It's ok to vent here; no one is going to be hurt by it. BUT the bigger issue is, you seem incapable of letting go at this point, so medication may be necessary. 

You are treading on very dangerous ground. You were ok with a lousy marriage until it crossed a line you didn't like--and you do not have one shred of evidence that any cheating took place. It's pretty obvious you've created a "no win" situation for her--no matter what she does, she's a cheating w*ore and you are letting that decision--the one you have made--destroy whatever chance you have for improving things or at least becoming happier. 

There are medications that can help people like you. You need to be honest in explaining it to a doctor--that you made a conclusion but don't have any solid evidence, and now you are obsessing about it and this obsession threatens to destroy your marriage. A medical professional--preferably a psychiatrist who has much greater familiarity with medications for these sorts of things--will likely be able to help. If you do not accept that there is something seriously wrong with the way you are seeing and reacting to things, you'll never feel any better. Do you really want to live with these thoughts the rest of your life, or at least the rest of your marriage?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just one more comment and I'll shut up. You say that you basically called her a *****. You may not be aware of it, but AFAIK, there is only one other word in the English language that hurts a woman to the core more than that, and I won't repeat it. To a woman, calling her a ***** is essentialy the same, I would think, as calling a man a worthless, disappointing failure of a provider. A man's essence, from what I've been told and read, is tied up in his ability to provide. A woman's is tied up in her respectability to NOT be considered a *****.

So basically, you struck at her in one of the worst ways possible. I wasn't upset that you yelled, I expect that when someone is exasperated. It's HOW they yell, the words they choose, that make the difference.

My H, in his early angry years, called me the other word, the 'c' word, ONCE. I looked him the eye and told him that if he ever used that word on me again so long as we lived, it would be the last time he ever saw me. Ever.

That's how much of an effect words can have.

I want you to express yourself to her. You need to. But do it with dignity, ok?


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## cody5 (Sep 2, 2009)

I admitted to myself a long time ago (and maybe didn't make it clear enough earlier in this thread), that of all of the MANY mistakes I made in the last 8 months (2 months of obsessing on my own before I brought her into it) initially approaching her the way I did was BY FAR the biggest one. First of all, she is the love of my life. The greatest thing that ever happened to me, and I shouldn't treat her that way. Secondly, it ended forever any chance I ever had of discussing it with her rationally. I KNOW what I did and I'm now committed to fixing it. With help. And with medications (I'm already there sisters. I follow-up with him next week). 

I have an appointment today. This will be the first one where I will be trying to fix myself instead of searching for vindication. The one good thing that will come out of this mess is that my wife and I WILL come out of this stronger, and we will have the rest of our lives to enjoy each other the way we should have all along. She's been willing to give me a second chance for 6 months now (like I said, the greatest thing that's ever happened to me). I will take it now and run with it.


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## Lyn (Mar 10, 2010)

A friend of mine has worked with married couples for years and says that the marriages which survive are the strongest of all.

Best to you,

Lyn


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

> You say that you basically called her a *****. You may not be aware of it, but AFAIK, there is only one other word in the English language that hurts a woman to the core more than that, and I won't repeat it. To a woman, calling her a ***** is essentialy the same, I would think, as calling a man a worthless, disappointing failure of a provider. A man's essence, from what I've been told and read, is tied up in his ability to provide. A woman's is tied up in her respectability to NOT be considered a *****.


Just for the record, I do not believe this is true anymore, at least not for many women. You could call me a w*ore all you wanted and I would not care one little bit. 

Of course, I cannot think of anything off the top of my head that would bother me, because I would know it isn't true (of the usual things said to people). As we develop self-esteem, our tendency to be injured by the words of others declines dramatically. If you value yourself, no one can "make" you feel demeaned or worthless.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not what YOU feel when someone says that, I would think; it's what you have to assume the person who SAYS it feels about you.


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