# Marriage for Men



## wxman3441

What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?


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## Tasorundo

What benefit does marriage offer women that isn't based on some sort of sexist, historical stereotype?


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## Tilted 1

wxman3441 said:


> What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?


A personal sense of completion in a traditional role of married life. You can get love, sex, companionship, and almost everything else from another but the life long commitment from another soul, " if you tend to it " love and cherish and is reciripated from your partner in the same fashion it can and will complete a couple beyond the norm of self gradfication only to please one self. But if the latter serves the individual better than the former then eliminates the need for marriage.


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## wxman3441

My post wasn't mean to stir up controversy. I am just curious and wanted to gauge the married men out there.


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## Tasorundo

To me, my marriage gives me a solid committed relationship, where I can count on the other person. Sure, sometimes marriages fail or people are not always dependable, but there is an expectation of consistent support.

It is a declaration that she and I are on the same team, come whatever obstacle. That she is for me and I am for her even when things are difficult. We are devoted to serving each other and unified in a common goal.


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## DoesItGetBetter?

Hello, wxman3441 - 

I married because I wanted a committed, exclusive relationship for life, and I hope to attain this goal. My family trained me to eventually marry, so that was my background, expectation, conditioning. I see the mutual benefit of exclusivity and stability for both husbands and wives. Both benefit from sex, communication, and meeting some of each other's emotional needs, hopefully enriching each other's lives, sharing life together. In a traditional marriage, the husband benefits from his wife's cleaning, cooking, childcare, etc. In traditional marriage, the wife benefits from the husband earning income to pay for the household's expenses. However, I understand that many husbands and wives both work, so roles are no longer strictly defined. While roles might have changed, the committed and exclusive nature of marriage remains.


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## SadSamIAm

I got nothing.

Often think that things might have been better if we had not been married. Maybe we wouldn't take each other for granted as often if it was easier to walk.


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## Girl_power

Does marriage benefit the wealthier person? 


In a marriage one can walk away any time. In a committed relationship one can walk away anytime. The good and bad thing about marriage is that it’s a legal union, and it’s expensive to “walk” away. Knowing this, your actions should be altered so to speak. 

Just speaking for myself...if I was in a relationship that I wouldn’t ever get married... I would be very selfish and so what’s best for me. For example, I would work full time all the time. I wouldn’t feel comfortable dropping my hours for the greater good of the family, If that makes sense. In marriage, you sacrifice things for the greater good of the unit. And this is beneficial for the family unit.


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## SadSamIAm

Girl_power said:


> Does marriage benefit the wealthier person?
> 
> 
> In a marriage one can walk away any time. In a committed relationship one can walk away anytime. The good and bad thing about marriage is that it’s a legal union, and it’s expensive to “walk” away. Knowing this, your actions should be altered so to speak.
> 
> Just speaking for myself...if I was in a relationship that I wouldn’t ever get married... I would be very selfish and so what’s best for me. For example, I would work full time all the time. I wouldn’t feel comfortable dropping my hours for the greater good of the family, If that makes sense. In marriage, you sacrifice things for the greater good of the unit. And this is beneficial for the family unit.


This isn't about marriage. It is about commitment. You can have a family without getting married. You don't want to make a commitment to anyone.


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## uhtred

All the usual legal protections about shared property ownership, power of attorney etc. It benefits both because it legally ties two people together, reducing the work each has to do. Just as a trivial example, I do the bills, my wife does the taxes. We both have the legal right to do both.

It provides a strong social statement of the permanence of the relationship.

It provides a legal framework for any children.


All these can be achieved without marriage but its a convenient way to do it.


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## Yeswecan

Well, my beer ain't gonna fill itself. There's that.


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## Spicy

wxman3441 said:


> What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?


The benefit of a wife like me. Nobody would get me without the full commitment of marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

A committed relationship with a great person and a solid foundation for having children.


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## wilson

Marriage is supposed to be a life-long relationship. Getting married makes it clear that both partners have the same expectation about that. Certainly it doesn't always work out that way, but the act of getting married makes it clear that the intention of the couple is to have a life-long relationship. If the couple is not married, there may not be that understanding or commitment. Certainly some non-married couples stay together for a lifetime, but the level of commitment may be different since either person could just leave at anytime.

If a man is primarily worried about keeping his wealth and having sex X times per week, being unmarried would probably be the best option. He can keep all his money and can move on as soon as the relationship no longer meets his need. But the flipside is that he may not have a partner who sticks with him during downtimes in his life with his finances, health, emotional state, etc. His partner may leave when he needs her the most (just the same as he can to her).


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## Mybabysgotit

If you cohabitate with someone for a period of time and have a child with that person, you are legally married. You have to get a divorce just like anyone else, pay alimony, child support...all that good stuff.

For me, I would only get married if I wanted a family. Other than that, there's no need for marriage.


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## uhtred

But then what do you get out of it? 



Spicy said:


> The benefit of a wife like me. Nobody would get me without the full commitment of marriage.


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## EleGirl

Mybabysgotit said:


> If you cohabitate with someone for a period of time and have a child with that person, you are legally married. You have to get a divorce just like anyone else, pay alimony, child support...all that good stuff.
> 
> For me, I would only get married if I wanted a family. Other than that, there's no need for marriage.


Only 10 states recognize common law marriage today. Florida is not one of them.

Alabama
Colorado
District of Columbia
Iowa
Kansas
Montana
Rhode Island
South Carolina
Texas
Utah


Georgia (if created before 1/1/97)
Idaho (if created before 1/1/96)
New Hampshire (for inheritance purposes only)
Ohio (if created before 10/10/91)
Oklahoma (possibly only if created before 11/1/98. Oklahoma’s laws and court decisions may be in conflict about whether common law marriages formed in that state after 11/1/98 will be recognized.)
Pennsylvania (if created before 1/1/05)


https://talkaboutmarriage.com/admincp/index.php?loc=user.php?do=edit&u=338605

For Florida

Common Law Marriage in Florida? Fact or Myth - Moon Law Group | Tampa Divorce Attorney | Personal Injury LawyerMoon Law Group | Tampa Divorce Attorney | Personal Injury Lawyer


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## leftfield

wxman3441 said:


> What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?


Historically, access to sex.

In modern times, if you are willing to have sex outside marriage, not much.


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## leftfield

You can have commitment and family and everything else without marriage. It is clear that many people like the stamp of marriage on these things.

The legal rights are the only things that has been brought up that you actually need marriage to get.


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## BruceBanner

Tasorundo said:


> What benefit does marriage offer women that isn't based on some sort of sexist, historical stereotype?


If marriage doesn't benefit women why do so many demand to be married but also initiate divorce disproportionately more than men?


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## wxman3441

Because they receive most of the alimony and child support.


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## Mr. Nail

It depends a lot on where you live.
In the US marriage legally is promising to pay your taxes together. Also some power of attorney, and access to medical information.
It depends a lot on your religious beliefs.
Some religions rule sex outside of marriage as a serious sin. So permission to have sex, not access to sex. Some religions apply other vows at marriage (other than taxes). 
It depends a lot on your partner. 
See @Spicy . Also this is the bit where access to sex sometimes works out.
@wxman3441 , I do not consent to gauging.


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## Tasorundo

BruceBanner said:


> If marriage doesn't benefit women why do so many demand to be married but also initiate divorce disproportionately more than men?


I would guess because all women are awful people out to screw over every man they can. They will try to snare as many into marriage as possible, steal all their money, then bang their best friends in the same bed they are too tired to sleep with their super amazing devoted husband. That sum it up?


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## Tasorundo

wxman3441 said:


> Because they receive most of the alimony and child support.


There goes that honest intention of not looking to start controversy...how did we not see through that camouflage? Oh, we did, never mind.


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## BruceBanner

Tasorundo said:


> I would guess because all women are awful people out to screw over every man they can. They will try to snare as many into marriage as possible, steal all their money, then bang their best friends in the same bed they are too tired to sleep with their super amazing devoted husband. That sum it up?


No. I would like you to actually try properly answering my question without becoming miffed and exaggerating.


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## Tasorundo

BruceBanner said:


> No. I would like you to actually try properly answering my question without becoming miffed and exaggerating.


Because most women want to be married? Because many husbands are ****ty? Because women get tired of doting on husbands? Because many husbands have affairs?

Here is a source that supports some of that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...omen-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why

Men are just fine in the marriages, they are upset that the wife is unhappy, but are not unhappy, so why would they file?

You are asking for a single answer to a question with about 11,000,000,000 variables.


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## BruceBanner

Tasorundo said:


> Because most women want to be married? Because many husbands are ****ty? Because women get tired of doting on husbands? Because many husbands have affairs?
> 
> Here is a source that supports some of that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...omen-initiate-divorce-much-more-men-heres-why
> 
> Men are just fine in the marriages, they are upset that the wife is unhappy, but are not unhappy, so why would they file?
> 
> You are asking for a single answer to a question with about 11,000,000,000 variables.


So you mean to tell me that men are so **** that 80% of marriage divorces are initiated by women? Why do women continue getting married then? Shouldn't common sense kick in some time eventually? Why not just find a partner and not get married? It's not necessary anyways. That way if things go south they can part ways much easier without all of the extra baggage that comes along with divorce. What is it that keeps women coming back for more? Masochism?



> Men are just fine in the marriages, they are upset that the wife is unhappy, but are not unhappy, so why would they file?


I don't think I understand. Could you please elaborate? There's a stereotype about men that they have a hard time committing so I figured it would be men who are most likely to initiate divorce than women. Although who initiates divorce doesn't always tell the full story.


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## RebuildingMe

You want to red pill answer or the feminist answer? You will get both on here as you already did.


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## Tasorundo

BruceBanner said:


> So you mean to tell me that men are so **** that 80% of marriage divorces are initiated by women? Why do women continue getting married then? Shouldn't common sense kick in some time eventually? Why not just find a partner and not get married? It's not necessary anyways. That way if things go south they can part ways much easier without all of the extra baggage that comes along with divorce. What is it that keeps women coming back for more? Masochism?


It's actually 70%, or 68.something rounded to 69, rounded to 70. But sure, 80 is good.

Like I said, they want to get married, because they want to get married. They want to have life long relationship with a husband.

Why do you not want to get married? Why do you get to be right and they are wrong?

Why don't men stay home and raise kids? Why don't you ask men to stop working, or stop progressing in their careers so the family can function better? Why don't you ask men why so many of them think they should both work full time and she has to do the house work?





BruceBanner said:


> I don't think I understand. Could you please elaborate? There's a stereotype about men that they have a hard time committing so I figured it would be men who are most likely to initiate divorce than women. Although who initiates divorce doesn't always tell the full story.


Men are not unhappy in the ****ty marriages most of the time. They are fine working, coming home, watching tv, jerking off to porn, and going to bed. The wives are not happy with that, so they ask for change. Men don't change, women ask for divorce. That happens a lot. Hell, just look at this forum, it has tons of guys that didn't change until the wife finally filed, or threatened to.


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## Cynthia

There are inheritance and retirement benefits to being married which are not available to those who don't get married.


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## wxman3441

You are correct about men not changing. They dont. Women marry men with the hopes he will change. That slob you married.... he will still be a slob after you get married. Women need to understand this. 

Accuse me to stirring up controversy if you want but there are financial incentives for women to divorce. That is a fact.


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## wilson

Aside from any legal or financial issues, marriage is a unique institution and environment from an emotional and lifestyle perspective. If someone doesn't want to live in a marriage-like environment, they shouldn't get married regardless of the legal or financial benefits.

I got married because I like being married and wanted a marriage-like lifestyle. It had nothing to do with legal protections or financial stability. I like being in a relationship where I have a relationship with my partner that's as close as an actual blood relation. I like the internal happiness that comes from knowing my partner will be with me forever (hopefully). I like not having to be on all the time from the fear that my partner will dump me if I'm not entertaining enough.

It's kind of like joining the military. If someone joins the military just based on the salary, they are not going to be happy. Being in the military is a whole lifestyle in itself. If someone isn't compatible with the military lifestyle, the pay and benefits are irrelevant. It's the same with marriage. If someone gets married just for the sex, legal and financial reasons, they probably won't be happy being married unless they actually like living the married lifestyle as well.


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## Diana7

Mybabysgotit said:


> If you cohabitate with someone for a period of time and have a child with that person, you are legally married. You have to get a divorce just like anyone else, pay alimony, child support...all that good stuff.
> 
> For me, I would only get married if I wanted a family. Other than that, there's no need for marriage.


No you are not married just because you have a child.


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## Diana7

Speaking for my husband, he wouldn't live with a woman anyway, so for him the commitment of marriage is what he desires and enjoys. Marriage is far far more stable and secure and has a far stronger foundation than just living together. Its a known fact that children do better in a marriage situation and that men are healthier and live longer if they are married. 
Marriage is a covenant where the two become one, and everything becomes ours and not yours or mine. Its a very special thing.


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## StillSearching

Well, there's TAM. 
Without marriage, I would not have been so betrayed to find TAM.

Other than that, this thread is filled with rainbows and blue pill pipe dreams.

But kids...I get it.


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## BruceBanner

Tasorundo said:


> It's actually 70%, or 68.something rounded to 69, rounded to 70. But sure, 80 is good.
> 
> Like I said, they want to get married, because they want to get married. They want to have life long relationship with a husband.
> 
> Why do you not want to get married? Why do you get to be right and they are wrong?
> 
> Why don't men stay home and raise kids? Why don't you ask men to stop working, or stop progressing in their careers so the family can function better? Why don't you ask men why so many of them think they should both work full time and she has to do the house work?


Men don't gain much of anything from marriage for the most part. Whatever little men gain from marriage is offset by all the disadvantages that come along with it. 



> Why do you get to be right and they are wrong?


When did I ever say or imply something like this? If that was the implication you took out of my posts you are mistaken. At worst I'm playing devil's advocate.



> Why don't men stay home and raise kids? Why don't you ask men to stop working, or stop progressing in their careers so the family can function better? Why don't you ask men why so many of them think they should both work full time and she has to do the house work?


Men evolved to be active and to work together so as to secure resources and stave off other men. But obviously too much of anything can be bad for you.



CynthiaDe said:


> There are inheritance and retirement benefits to being married which are not available to those who don't get married.


Thank you for your contribution. In your opinion how much would the marriage rate go down if we took away these benefits?


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## Tasorundo

BruceBanner said:


> Men don't gain much of anything from marriage for the most part. Whatever little men gain from marriage is offset by all the disadvantages that come along with it.


That is your opinion. You could say that no one gains anything from marriage, or you could say that people gain something. To you, or your devil's advocate, a life long pledge to be together is worthless, so I guess the answer is nothing. If you remove the things that it provides out side of legal documents, then I guess you win?




BruceBanner said:


> When did I ever say or imply something like this? If that was the implication you took out of my posts you are mistaken. At worst I'm playing devil's advocate.


Do you think you are wrong then? Clearly you think that men shouldn't get married as you have jumped in guns blazing on that side of the argument. Your signature is an example of some of the worst things that wives could ever say. So don't give me this devils advocate crap, you are a hurt dude and you think women are awful.



BruceBanner said:


> Men evolved to be active and to work together so as to secure resources and stave off other men. But obviously too much of anything can be bad for you.


If we are going to go with an evolutionary perspective on this, then men gain the ability to procreate. In today's society, there is no way a woman should willingly have and raise a child with an unmarried partner. They are asking to get screwed over in the end. It is the opposite side if your argument. Men would want to have children without marriage, so they could walk away.


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## Mr. Nail

BruceBanner said:


> If marriage doesn't benefit women why do so many demand to be married but also initiate divorce disproportionately more than men?


Buyers regret.


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## Diana7

BruceBanner said:


> Men don't gain much of anything from marriage for the most part. Whatever little men gain from marriage is offset by all the disadvantages that come along with it.
> 
> 
> 
> When did I ever say or imply something like this? If that was the implication you took out of my posts you are mistaken. At worst I'm playing devil's advocate.
> 
> 
> 
> Men evolved to be active and to work together so as to secure resources and stave off other men. But obviously too much of anything can be bad for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your contribution. In your opinion how much would the marriage rate go down if we took away these benefits?


I think that countless men would disagree with you. Many gain great things from marriage, being healthier and living longer for a start.


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## Numb26

Can't think of any for either the man or the woman


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## Diana7

StillSearching said:


> Well, there's TAM.
> Without marriage, I would not have been so betrayed to find TAM.
> 
> Other than that, this thread is filled with rainbows and blue pill pipe dreams.
> 
> But kids...I get it.


Rainbows and blue pill pipe dreams such as???


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## Personal

Well aside from things like an ability to make decisions regarding medical treatment for a spouse in some critical conditions. Plus rights in the event of death and being able to get divorced and the legal protections for all that is inherent in that process. All of which matter to me.

I like being married, I like sharing my life with my wife. I am also fortunate in being lucky enough to have my wife share her life with me. I like being in a relationship with a woman who cares for me and supports me in so many different ways.

I like that I have shared and continue to share a tremendously rich, frequent, enthusiastic and varied sex life with my wife for more than two decades.

I also like that through my marriage with my wife, we have been able to raise two wonderful children together while being married.

I like that we declared our love for one another publicly and formally, while having grown closer together through all of the time after our wedding day that we have shared.


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## leftfield

Diana7 said:


> I think that countless men would disagree with you. Many gain great things from marriage, being healthier and living longer for a start.


There are also a lot of men who have contemplated/attempted/committed suicide because of marriage. There will be some men who disagree no matter what point one is trying to make.

My marriage has brought me great things and I am getting what I wanted from it. I also got the spouse I wanted and love having her in my life. But, the concept of marriage does not provide those things. It is me and my partner that make the marriage, not the other way around.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Didn't read any responses I'll just tell you mine. I've been a great big child my whole life. Some big ol baby running and hiding. Lurking in the shadows. Hell bent on destroying his life. For some God only knows reason, he put this angel in my life. No matter how stupid I am. No matter how far I fall, my angel has been there. Oh, she left once when we were kids. I was in a major drug crazed spiral. Meth, coke, weed, and alcohol were my pleasures. I pissed away everything. Dropped out of high school senior year. Right after 9/11 actually. Banging coke and coked up women. Just being an absolute moron. 

Yet somehow, for no logical reason at all, she took me back when I came running back into her arms. She was there with arms open. 

Then later, I went and left for another woman. After all that other bull**** I put her through, I caught the feels and wormed my way out of things so I could go bang this meaningless chick. Of course I knew what I was doing. I'm terrified little boy. Frightened by any sort of consistency. I neeeeeeeed to be alone. I'm terrified of everyone. Scared to look at myself. Scared to do anything but keep on running. 

Eventually I noticed she was always there. No matter how far and how fast I could run from everything, she always kept up with me. Stride for stride. She was with me, always. She's the first thing I had reason to stop running for ever in my life. The first thing that made me feel like I am worth being alive. The first thing that made me feel like I'm allowed to be loved and cared for. How the f**k am I supposed to keep running from my angel? How could I possibly keep running from that? Shes so beautiful, everything about her. She is everything. I would absolutley be dead without her. 

I will NEVER let her go! NEVER! What option did I have? She wanted to get married. As the dread pirate Robert's would say to his buttercup. "As you wish"


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## StillSearching

BruceBanner said:


> If marriage doesn't benefit women why do so many demand to be married but also initiate divorce disproportionately more than men?


Because hypergamy doesn't care, overtly and covertly it's about opportunity.


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## Diana7

leftfield said:


> There are also a lot of men who have contemplated/attempted/committed suicide because of marriage. There will be some men who disagree no matter what point one is trying to make.
> 
> My marriage has brought me great things and I am getting what I wanted from it. I also got the spouse I wanted and love having her in my life. But, the concept of marriage does not provide those things. It is me and my partner that make the marriage, not the other way around.


So how many men do you know who have killed themselves purely because of marriage.


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## leftfield

Diana7 said:


> So how many men do you know who have killed themselves purely because of marriage.


Well we really never know if it was 'purely because of marriage'. Anyways, I know a few.


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## Marduk

wxman3441 said:


> You are correct about men not changing. They dont. Women marry men with the hopes he will change. That slob you married.... he will still be a slob after you get married. Women need to understand this.
> 
> Accuse me to stirring up controversy if you want but there are financial incentives for women to divorce. That is a fact.


I know more than one guy that got married to a very wealthy woman and divorced them as soon as they realized they could get alimony or a large settlement.

One guy hasn't worked in more than five years, and will likely never work again and just live off her income for the rest of his life. He's in his mid 40's.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Hmmmm...
From a Judeo-Christian standpoint, sex is no longer forbidden as fornication. However, you may not receive sex anymore after marriage.

From a sociological standpoint, its viewed as offering a more stable environment to raise children. However, with divorce rates and infidelity rates as they are, I'm not entirely sure how much more stable it really is as opposed to just shacking up.

It does offer a tax break I guess... thats something, right?


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## Diana7

leftfield said:


> Well we really never know if it was 'purely because of marriage'. Anyways, I know a few.


So specifically what part of the marriage led them to do that, or was it maybe to do with something else entirely and they just happened to be married when they did it.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Diana7 said:


> leftfield said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are also a lot of men who have contemplated/attempted/committed suicide because of marriage. There will be some men who disagree no matter what point one is trying to make.
> 
> My marriage has brought me great things and I am getting what I wanted from it. I also got the spouse I wanted and love having her in my life. But, the concept of marriage does not provide those things. It is me and my partner that make the marriage, not the other way around.
> 
> 
> 
> So how many men do you know who have killed themselves purely because of marriage.
Click to expand...

More likely over divorce...


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## leftfield

Diana7 said:


> So specifically what part of the marriage led them to do that, or was it maybe to do with something else entirely and they just happened to be married when they did it.


We can't specifically ask this question unless you know how to speak with dead people.

Also see post #51.


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## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> I know more than one guy that got married to a very wealthy woman and divorced them as soon as they realized they could get alimony or a large settlement.
> 
> One guy hasn't worked in more than five years, and will likely never work again and just live off her income for the rest of his life. He's in his mid 40's.


Becoming more and more common. I have always said neither sex holds some sort of moral high ground. Gold diggers are mostly women because of the circumstances alone. If women were the bread winners throughout all of history, there would be almost no gold digging women and a bunch of gold digging men. 

Sort of the same concept that makes me chuckle at this idea that if women ran the world, everything would be peachy, sunshine and roses. No wars or anything! Yep. Never seen a woman hold a grudge before. :laugh:


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## minimalME

Really??? I missed that Bible verse. Quote it for me, please. 



UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> From a Judeo-Christian standpoint, sex is no longer forbidden as fornication.


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## TheDudeLebowski

minimalME said:


> Really??? I missed that Bible verse. Quote it for me, please.


It came from the upside down. I think a Demogorgan wrote it.


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## RebuildingMe

“I know a guy that took his wife to the cleaners...”

Come on guy, it always the other way around a MAJORITY of the time. 

“It’s become more common place...”

No, it hasn’t. If you are a man in Family Court, your nuts are cut off and shoved down your throat.


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## Spicy

uhtred said:


> But then what do you get out of it?


A husband that is worthy of me, and I him. 

No relationship or marriage is perfect. I think we are all looking for very specific things. I knew what I wanted and needed. 

I was only interested in marriage. Dating people who feel marriage is unnecessary would be pointless to me. I was never interested in changing someone’s mind, or waiting forever for an engagement or worse yet _in an engagement. _ I’m all grown up, love being a wife and mom. Not interested in anything other than the full commitment and vows of a marriage. 

Either you want to be a husband or you don’t. If you just want to shack up, I’m not your girl, and you are not my guy. Simple as that.


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## 2ntnuf

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Hello, wxman3441 -
> 
> I married because I wanted a committed, exclusive relationship for life, and I hope to attain this goal. My family trained me to eventually marry, so that was my background, expectation, conditioning. I see the mutual benefit of exclusivity and stability for both husbands and wives. Both benefit from sex, communication, and meeting some of each other's emotional needs, hopefully enriching each other's lives, sharing life together. In a traditional marriage, the husband benefits from his wife's cleaning, cooking, childcare, etc. In traditional marriage, the wife benefits from the husband earning income to pay for the household's expenses. However, I understand that many husbands and wives both work, so roles are no longer strictly defined. While roles might have changed, *the committed and exclusive nature of marriage remains*.


hmm... thinking... error 404

lol


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## RebuildingMe

I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.


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## Diana7

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> More likely over divorce...


Well yes divorce is awful, I and my husband have both been through it, but that could be just as upsetting if a long relationship ended. So the marriage didn't cause the suicide.


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## TheDudeLebowski

RebuildingMe said:


> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.


Maybe instead of being mad at others finding peace in their lives, you can search for your own. 0

Your name suggests you are. I hope you get there. Lots of lost souls here. You are in the right place I think.


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## Diana7

RebuildingMe said:


> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.


My husband has, and it didn't stop him getting married again.


----------



## Diana7

leftfield said:


> We can't specifically ask this question unless you know how to speak with dead people.
> 
> Also see post #51.


So you clearly dont know any who did this very well.


----------



## Marduk

RebuildingMe said:


> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.




Married, cheated on, left, divorced, dated a lot, married, had kids, ran into trouble, swallowed the red pill, ran into more trouble, puked it back up, ran into more trouble, and now see the world in a brand new way. 

What do you want to know?


----------



## Diana7

minimalME said:


> Really??? I missed that Bible verse. Quote it for me, please.


Yes I would like to know as well. In my Bible its still wrong.


----------



## Diana7

Spicy said:


> A husband that is worthy of me, and I him.
> 
> No relationship or marriage is perfect. I think we are all looking for very specific things. I knew what I wanted and needed.
> 
> I was only interested in marriage. Dating people who feel marriage is unnecessary would be pointless to me. I was never interested in changing someone’s mind, or waiting forever for an engagement or worse yet _in an engagement. _ I’m all grown up, love being a wife and mom. Not interested in anything other than the full commitment and vows of a marriage.
> 
> Either you want to be a husband or you don’t. If you just want to shack up, I’m not your girl, and you are not my guy. Simple as that.


I am the same as is my husband. A man who wants to shack up is of no interest to me. 
I cant understand these couples who get engaged but never get married. I know couples who have been engaged for 10 or more years yet who clearly have no intention of marrying. If you don't want marriage then don't get engaged. 

I too love being married, as does my husband, and we are fortunate to know many people or both sexes who have good and happy marriages.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

minimalME said:


> Really??? I missed that Bible verse. Quote it for me, please.
> 
> 
> 
> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From a Judeo-Christian standpoint, sex is no longer forbidden as fornication.
Click to expand...


1 Corinthians 7-9 New International Version (NIV)

7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.


----------



## Diana7

Its sad when a few men who are bitter and angry try and make out that marriage has no benefits for men. It does and it always will. 
My husband was divorced by his first wife of 23 years after she had an affair. He didn't let it make him bitter or angry or put him off marriage. He knows when he is well off believe me.


----------



## Diana7

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> 1 Corinthians 7-9 New International Version (NIV)
> 
> 7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
> 
> 8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
> 
> 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.


Where does that say sex before marriage(fornication) is ok?


----------



## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> Its sad when a few men who are bitter and angry try and make out that marriage has no benefits for men. It does and it always will.
> My husband was divorced by his first wife of 23 years after she had an affair. He didn't let it make him bitter or angry or put him off marriage. He knows when he is well off believe me.


Cool!

But weren't you the one telling me that the best marriages only happen with virgins?


----------



## Marduk

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> 1 Corinthians 7-9 New International Version (NIV)
> 
> 7 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
> 
> 8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
> 
> 10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.


Stupid question from this secular humanist, that isn't an atheist:

Why do people argue about bible passages when pieces have been mistranslated, retranslated, edited, forged, and even if it was right, was written for a culture that's thousands of years old?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Diana7 said:


> I am the same as is my husband. A man who wants to shack up is of no interest to me.
> I cant understand these couples who get engaged but never get married. I know couples who have been engaged for 10 or more years yet who clearly have no intention of marrying. If you don't want marriage then don't get engaged.
> 
> I too love being married, as does my husband, and we are fortunate to know many people or both sexes who have good and happy marriages.


Diana, you don't need to undersrand them and they don't really need to understand you either. Being a Christian, surely you have seen first hand how God truly does work in mysterious ways. Just think of it that way.


----------



## RebuildingMe

TheDudeLebowski said:


> RebuildingMe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe instead of being mad at others finding peace in their lives, you can search for your own. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_angel.png" border="0" alt="" title="Angel" ></a>
> 
> Your name suggests you are. I hope you get there. Lots of lost souls here. You are in the right place I think.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your response. I’ve been cheated on in both marriages. Part of the “rebuilding” is to quit being a doormat and seeing the world for what it really is.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Marduk said:


> RebuildingMe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Married, cheated on, left, divorced, dated a lot, married, had kids, ran into trouble, swallowed the red pill, ran into more trouble, puked it back up, ran into more trouble, and now see the world in a brand new way.
> 
> What do you want to know?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your honest response. It sounds like you have also been through a lot of crap. Life experiences and relationships shape people in different ways.


----------



## leftfield

Diana7 said:


> So you clearly dont know any who did this very well.


They were acquaintances, not someone close enough to confide in me. I did not indicate otherwise.


----------



## Marduk

RebuildingMe said:


> Thanks for your honest response. It sounds like you have also been through a lot of crap. Life experiences and relationships shape people in different ways.



Part of what it got me to see is that the red pill is misandrist and that women are not the enemy.


----------



## leftfield

Diana7 said:


> Its sad when a few men who are bitter and angry try and make out that marriage has no benefits for men. It does and it always will.
> My husband was divorced by his first wife of 23 years after she had an affair. He didn't let it make him bitter or angry or put him off marriage. He knows when he is well off believe me.


It is good that your husband understands himself. It does not mean that everyone benefits as your husband does. Things are not that black and white.

This is coming from a man that is neither bitter or angry. Empathy and understanding can often help those who are bitter and angry.


----------



## MJJEAN

wxman3441 said:


> My post wasn't mean to stir up controversy. I am just curious and wanted to gauge the married men out there.


I asked my husband. This is what I got.

"Insurance, not being nagged about getting married, the relationship being taken seriously socially and legally, and some wriggle room because it's harder for you to leave."


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Marduk said:


> Stupid question from this secular humanist, that isn't an atheist:
> 
> Why do people argue about bible passages when pieces have been mistranslated, retranslated, edited, forged, and even if it was right, was written for a culture that's thousands of years old?


Why does the US still govern by a document hundreds of years old? Just because its not applicable in every way to modern life, people's hearts never really change over time. That isn't even touching on the religious side that it is God's Word handed down to us and how better to know and try to understand God and what He expects from his followers?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

MJJEAN said:


> wxman3441 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My post wasn't mean to stir up controversy. I am just curious and wanted to gauge the married men out there.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked my husband. This is what I got.
> 
> "Insurance, not being nagged about getting married, the relationship being taken seriously socially and legally, and some wriggle room because it's harder for you to leave."
Click to expand...

Haha. Sounds about right.


----------



## MJJEAN

Mybabysgotit said:


> If you cohabitate with someone for a period of time and have a child with that person, you are legally married. You have to get a divorce just like anyone else, pay alimony, child support...all that good stuff.
> 
> For me, I would only get married if I wanted a family. Other than that, there's no need for marriage.


Other than the facts @EleGirl posted re: Common Law Marriage, it's about more than simply living together and having a child or children together. To qualify the couple must also use the same surname, present themselves personally and professionally as Mr and Mrs, file taxes as married, share a residence, and must do all of the above for several years before having a Common Law marriage recognized.

In Canada, at least, it seems easy to fall into a Common law marriage. Here in the U.S., not so much. It's a very deliberate act that takes longer and is more of a bother than actually just getting married.



BruceBanner said:


> If marriage doesn't benefit women why do so many demand to be married but also initiate divorce disproportionately more than men?


Because, turns out, in most relationships the women handles the paperwork. I'm sure the numbers will change, though, because same sex marriage has become legal.

Personally, my exH and I were separated for over 2 years when I was finally able to file for divorce. By that time, I was living in a rental with my DH and kids while exH was living at his parents house with GF #28 (I exaggerate. She was probably #11. Too bad they didn't work. I liked that one.)

Why was I the one to file? Because he wouldn't. Apparently, it cost money and he didn't want to have to pay.



wxman3441 said:


> Accuse me to stirring up controversy if you want but there are financial incentives for women to divorce. That is a fact.


The reality is that there are incentives for the lower earning spouse to divorce. The law is gender neutral. Traditionally, it's been the woman who is the lower earner and so the idea of a bias was born.



leftfield said:


> There are also a lot of men who have contemplated/attempted/committed suicide because of marriage.


Absolutely not. No sane and mentally healthy person commits suicide with the exception of those who are terminally ill and suffering. Physically sound individuals who commit suicide do so because they are not mentally sound and not capable of sustaining their own lives. 

In other words, the marriage, divorce, affair, whatever didn't cause the men you speak of to kill themselves. Mental illness did.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

RebuildingMe said:


> Thank you for your response. I’ve been cheated on in both marriages. Part of the “rebuilding” is to quit being a doormat and seeing the world for what it really is.


You can look at the world two ways. Either everyone is good or everyone is crap. In the end, it doesn't really matter which path you choose. Just remember you are part of that "everyone" word.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Diana7 said:


> Its sad when a few men who are bitter and angry try and make out that marriage has no benefits for men. It does and it always will.
> My husband was divorced by his first wife of 23 years after she had an affair. He didn't let it make him bitter or angry or put him off marriage. *He knows when he is well off believe me*.


He damn well better know. 

:laugh:

Oh, that made me laugh. My stomach hurts. Just teasing you Diana7.


----------



## Marduk

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why does the US still govern by a document hundreds of years old? Just because its not applicable in every way to modern life, people's hearts never really change over time. That isn't even touching on the religious side that it is God's Word handed down to us and how better to know and try to understand God and what He expects from his followers?




How do you reconcile it though when people throw out a passage that’s been edited, mistranslated, or whatever and it just doesn’t make sense in a modern context?

I mean, I see people arguing about this passage vs that passage all the time. I get the whole “I’m going to glean whatever I can from this wisdom” thing. I’ve done that myself. 

I just don’t get how people can honestly point at it like it hasn’t been messed with over the years. Or maybe made sense at the time, but not now.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> Stupid question from this secular humanist, that isn't an atheist:
> 
> Why do people argue about bible passages when pieces have been mistranslated, retranslated, edited, forged, and even if it was right, was written for a culture that's thousands of years old?


I've gotten into arguments, not heated or anything, but arguments about song lyric meanings. Different interpretations based on world views and experiences. Firm believer in God no longer a question at all. Not so much the bible necessarily. I mean, yes and no. It's more like there's undeniable lessons in the bible that I believe are God inspired writing. Lessons anyone can practice that will lead to a more fulfilling life. Could simply be interpreted differently by different people. To your point, basically the main reason I dont take it literally. It's still a great book to read.


----------



## Marduk

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I've gotten into arguments, not heated or anything, but arguments about song lyric meanings. Different interpretations based on world views and experiences. Firm believer in God no longer a question at all. Not so much the bible necessarily. I mean, yes and no. It's more like there's undeniable lessons in the bible that I believe are God inspired writing. Lessons anyone can practice that will lead to a more fulfilling life. Could simply be interpreted differently by different people. To your point, basically the main reason I dont take it literally. It's still a great book to read.



Totally different example - I got into a heated argument with an “astrologer” once because she didn’t understand that due to precession, all the signs were wrong.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> How do you reconcile it though when people throw out a passage that’s been edited, mistranslated, or whatever and it just doesn’t make sense in a modern context?
> 
> I mean, I see people arguing about this passage vs that passage all the time. I get the whole “I’m going to glean whatever I can from this wisdom” thing. I’ve done that myself.
> 
> I just don’t get how people can honestly point at it like it hasn’t been messed with over the years. Or maybe made sense at the time, but not now.


Took my son to church youth group yesterday. I wanted to sneak in and say a quick prayer in the chapel. Duh, its wednesday. I dont know why I thought nobody would be there. So I'm trying to sneak out unnoticed and this guy named Mark comes out of a door and spots me. In Texas, we have strict manner codes. He said hello and I had to stop. He sucked me right into a conversation by saying his name and that he's a former heroin addict. Apparently Wednesday night is recovery group meeting night. So he drags me back to this group and I get into a conversation with them. Some of it was my interpretations on the bible because they asked. We didn't agree on very much :laugh: but both our hearts were in the right place. That's all that matters.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

To be honest, a little later I realized he said something and it made me think. He said "I had to say something, you had that look" and my insecurities are going "what look?" How do people know I do drugs? In my thread in private I shared the story of a new hire I was training. Not 5 minutes into the start of the day, we dont even know each other's names yet, this guy whips out some concentrates. A dab pen basically, and offered it to me. I was like wtf? How do people know? I guess I just have a look, idk what it is.


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> Cool!
> 
> But weren't you the one telling me that the best marriages only happen with virgins?


Yes, and those who wait for marriage before having sex which we did.


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> How do you reconcile it though when people throw out a passage that’s been edited, mistranslated, or whatever and it just doesn’t make sense in a modern context?
> 
> I mean, I see people arguing about this passage vs that passage all the time. I get the whole “I’m going to glean whatever I can from this wisdom” thing. I’ve done that myself.
> 
> I just don’t get how people can honestly point at it like it hasn’t been messed with over the years. Or maybe made sense at the time, but not now.


My view is that God is perfectly able to have made sure that what he wanted in the Bible is in there, and also the Bible is still very relevant.


----------



## Diana7

leftfield said:


> They were acquaintances, not someone close enough to confide in me. I did not indicate otherwise.


Therefore you can't randomly blame marriage for their suicides. I know of several people who committed suicide, some of them very close to me, none of them were more than the fact that they were very ill with depression. Nothing to do with their marriage/singleness but an illness. 

However many sources have shown that married men live longer and are healthier than those who are not married.


----------



## Diana7

RebuildingMe said:


> Thanks for your honest response. It sounds like you have also been through a lot of crap. Life experiences and relationships shape people in different ways.


Yes but its up to us how we let it affect us long term, and what we do about it. We can choose not to let it make us bitter and angry.


----------



## Diana7

leftfield said:


> It is good that your husband understands himself. It does not mean that everyone benefits as your husband does. Things are not that black and white.
> 
> This is coming from a man that is neither bitter or angry. Empathy and understanding can often help those who are bitter and angry.


Forgiveness and letting go of the past and giving up on wanting vengance towards the people who hurt us are what got my husband and I through really hard times. In the end its a decision and its not easy but so worth it.

If we go through an awful painful marriage break up, we can surely accept that marriage is still good and beneficial for countless people and for society in general, or we can attack marriage and says well there is nothing in it for men/women. Its like those who are hurt by one or two people of the opposite sex and who then blame all men or all women for what one or two did.


----------



## Personal

RebuildingMe said:


> I’m wondering how many of the liberal, feminists, blue pill men on here have actually been through a divorce? If you had, you can really see how vindictive some women you “cherish” can be.


I'm on my second marriage, and I went through a bitter divorce. Yet being responsible for my own happiness, from the beginning I chose not to wallow in misery.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Most men want children. Marriage is the best situation for your children.

Married men live longer, probably in part due to women being more likely to go to a doctor when there’s a problem and encouraging you to go.

A second wage earner makes your financial unit more stable. If one person is unemployed, there is still an income coming in (plus UE compensation) to take the edge off.

Sure, if a man and a woman act as if they are married, they can get most of the benefits. But realistically, you can’t have as secure of a bond without marriage. About 80% of marriages to college educated women last at least 20 years. Most marriages last a lifetime.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Women who divorce usually end up sitting alone in an apartment raising their kids and watching Netflix. The divorced men pay a large chunk to child support but have the time to date and have fun.

Divorce is not a good prospect for most women. It’s a last resort, not a first resort. I’ve yet to meet a women who wants to marry Joe Sixpack, have kids, divorce when the youngest is in first grade, then collect child support and alimony.


----------



## Betrayedone

Marriage for men sucks, statistically and in reality. Very few men that I know have married happily over time. Didn't used to be that way


----------



## Livvie

Betrayedone said:


> Marriage for men sucks, statistically and in reality. Very few men that I know have married happily over time. Didn't used to be that way


It's not MARRIAGE that sucks, it's the choice of partner that sucks. Marriage hasn't "changed".


----------



## Betrayedone

OK....I stand corrected.......still sucks


----------



## Diana7

Betrayedone said:


> Marriage for men sucks, statistically and in reality. Very few men that I know have married happily over time. Didn't used to be that way


I know countless men who are in very happy marriages. Mostly first marriages as well. Many who have been married for 40 or more years. 
Your statement is just wrong. I am afraid that you seem very bitter. No, statistics don't show that marriage sucks for men, it shows that men do better in marriage than out of it. Most men know when they are well off, and that's in a good marriage with a good woman.


----------



## BruceBanner

Tasorundo said:


> That is your opinion. You could say that no one gains anything from marriage, or you could say that people gain something. To you, or your devil's advocate, a life long pledge to be together is worthless, so I guess the answer is nothing. If you remove the things that it provides out side of legal documents, then I guess you win?
> 
> Do you think you are wrong then? Clearly you think that men shouldn't get married as you have jumped in guns blazing on that side of the argument. Your signature is an example of some of the worst things that wives could ever say.  So don't give me this devils advocate crap, you are a hurt dude and you think women are awful.
> 
> If we are going to go with an evolutionary perspective on this, then men gain the ability to procreate. In today's society, there is no way a woman should willingly have and raise a child with an unmarried partner. They are asking to get screwed over in the end. It is the opposite side if your argument. Men would want to have children without marriage, so they could walk away.


Yes a lifelong pledge to be together is worthless due to how malleable people are. My signature is just a wake up call.



Diana7 said:


> Its sad when a few men who are bitter and angry try and make out that marriage has no benefits for men. It does and it always will.
> My husband was divorced by his first wife of 23 years after she had an affair. He didn't let it make him bitter or angry or put him off marriage. He knows when he is well off believe me.


The pros of marriage for men do not outweigh the cons.



Diana7 said:


> I think that countless men would disagree with you. Many gain great things from marriage, being healthier and living longer for a start.


You don't need marriage for any of these things. 



Diana7 said:


> Forgiveness and letting go of the past and giving up on wanting vengance towards the people who hurt us are what got my husband and I through really hard times. In the end its a decision and its not easy but so worth it.
> 
> If we go through an awful painful marriage break up, we can surely accept that marriage is still good and beneficial for countless people and for society in general, or we can attack marriage and says well there is nothing in it for men/women. Its like those who are hurt by one or two people of the opposite sex and who then blame all men or all women for what one or two did.


All you need is a few minutes of reading to know that marriage is ****.



Livvie said:


> It's not MARRIAGE that sucks, it's the choice of partner that sucks. Marriage hasn't "changed".


Marriage has definitely changed.


----------



## dadstartingover

Most men shouldn't be in long-term relationships, let alone marriage. It takes a certain mental framework, disposition and set of skills to navigate a relationship with one person for the rest of your life AND be content at the same time. Show me 10 guys who say they are happily married, and eventually 7 of them will admit that they had WAY more money and WAY more sex prior to saying "I do". But, they convince themselves it's a "good enough" life.

The problem is that society has told most men that remaining single is a god-awful horrible idea. So, men will settle for a cute woman that tolerates him, giving very little thought of vetting for a proper wife candidate. Their eventual divorce, lack of kid time, wiped out 410k and zero savings shows them that maybe staying single wasn't such a bad idea after all. Then they do it all over again. 

People don't like being alone... They fill the void with marriage and kids. Most shouldn't.


----------



## Bibi1031

Diana7 said:


> I think that countless men would disagree with you. Many gain great things from marriage, being healthier and living longer for a start.


We partner to not go at life all alone. When we are born, we get a better chance of becoming a well rounded adult if we are brought up in a loving, healthy environment. The best example of that for humans is marriage and the family unit.

We are no different than the rest of the animal species. They partner to procreate and many mate with one partner for life. No legalities in animals just the instinct to perpetuate the species. Their natural instinct to protect their young in a safe, loving environment too.

Like with humans, animals have hurdles to conquer in their lifetimes too. Not getting eaten by a bigger animal is a biggie to many.:grin2:


----------



## Diana7

BruceBanner said:


> Yes a lifelong pledge to be together is worthless due to how malleable people are. My signature is just a wake up call.
> 
> 
> 
> The pros of marriage for men do not outweigh the cons.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need marriage for any of these things.
> 
> 
> 
> All you need is a few minutes of reading to know that marriage is ****.
> 
> 
> 
> Marriage has definitely changed.


Sorry but you are wrong.Why do you think that so many men get married again so quickly after their spouse has either died or the marriage has ended? Because they like being married. Married men are happier and healthier(not single men or those who live together). If they hated it so much they wouldn't get married again. 

I know so many men who love their wives and love being married. Many in my own family. 

Your views have been formed by your own bitterness and resentment , so much so that you cant see that marriage for many is very beneficial and good. 

I had a very painful and traumatic time caused by my first husband, so do I then hate and blame all men and marriage in general? Or do I be realistic and understand that not all men are like him, and that marriage is inheritantly good and beneficial for men women and children alike? I chose the latter.


----------



## Numb26

This is the truest description I have ever heard




dadstartingover said:


> Most men shouldn't be in long-term relationships, let alone marriage. It takes a certain mental framework, disposition and set of skills to navigate a relationship with one person for the rest of your life AND be content at the same time. Show me 10 guys who say they are happily married, and eventually 7 of them will admit that they had WAY more money and WAY more sex prior to saying "I do". But, they convince themselves it's a "good enough" life.
> 
> The problem is that society has told most men that remaining single is a god-awful horrible idea. So, men will settle for a cute woman that tolerates him, giving very little thought of vetting for a proper wife candidate. Their eventual divorce, lack of kid time, wiped out 410k and zero savings shows them that maybe staying single wasn't such a bad idea after all. Then they do it all over again.
> 
> People don't like being alone... They fill the void with marriage and kids. Most shouldn't.


----------



## minimalME

This is all fine and good _as long as_ you're upfront and honest about your intentions when you ask someone out on a 'date'.

You don't want any sort of commitment? None at all? Then don't pretend like you're open to these options. And as sooo many are fond of saying on this site, lying by omission is still lying. Right? 

Will men act with integrity and communicate in a forthright manner with the women they want to use (basically as less than prostitutes)?

I think it's almost laughable to have that expectation.




Numb26 said:


> This is the truest description I have ever heard





dadstartingover said:


> Most men shouldn't be in long-term relationships, let alone marriage. It takes a certain mental framework, disposition and set of skills to navigate a relationship with one person for the rest of your life AND be content at the same time. Show me 10 guys who say they are happily married, and eventually 7 of them will admit that they had WAY more money and WAY more sex prior to saying "I do". But, they convince themselves it's a "good enough" life.
> 
> The problem is that society has told most men that remaining single is a god-awful horrible idea. So, men will settle for a cute woman that tolerates him, giving very little thought of vetting for a proper wife candidate. Their eventual divorce, lack of kid time, wiped out 410k and zero savings shows them that maybe staying single wasn't such a bad idea after all. Then they do it all over again.
> 
> People don't like being alone... They fill the void with marriage and kids. Most shouldn't.


----------



## dadstartingover

minimalME said:


> This is all fine and good _as long as_ you're upfront and honest about your intentions when you ask someone out on a 'date'.
> 
> You don't want any sort of commitment? None at all? Then don't pretend like you're open to these options. And as sooo many are fond of saying on this site, lying by omission is still lying. Right?
> 
> Will men act with integrity and communicate in a forthright manner with the women they want to use (basically as less than prostitutes)?
> 
> I think it's almost laughable to have that expectation.


I tell men that aren't interested in a LTR to be honest and upfront. _*"I'm not the type of guy that is good at a monogamous LTR. Just not something I'm looking for at the moment."*_ I think that's perfectly healthy, normal and adult. What's he saying? He's saying he realizes he enjoys the company and the romantic/fun side of the relationship, but he doesn't have the tools to make it as a successful monogamous long-term thing. The problem is that most of society shames him for that mindset. Much like you just did by equating such a man with a guy as a "user" and a man looking for a prostitute.

I think most of the men you describe want to give it a shot with a woman, but they see all of the red flags and pulls the eject button on the relationship quickly. This is also something I suggest to guys. Don't waste anybody's time. Yes, she may call you a scumbag for having sex and then dumping her, but it saves you the years of headaches and worse that come from a mismatched relationship.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> My view is that God is perfectly able to have made sure that what he wanted in the Bible is in there, and also the Bible is still very relevant.



What I don’t understand is: since he was obviously able to make all this amazing stuff, including the world, people, quantum mechanics and Chuck E. Cheese why couldn’t he make a pen for himself and write the bible himself or at least get more competent people to write it for him more clearly, so that there weren’t any contradictions that people continue to argue and have wars over for centuries?

I think marriage is important from financial/tax point of view: it protects both parties, especially if there are children. Though I would rename it to ‘civil partnership’ and leave the religious aspects out of it.

If it’s more of a philosophical question, then I don’t know how to answer it...

To be fair, I got married because I found a very cool location to have a ‘wedding of a century’. It was an amazing party that people still talk about, 10 years later 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wilson

dadstartingover said:


> Show me 10 guys who say they are happily married, and eventually 7 of them will admit that they had WAY more money and WAY more sex prior to saying "I do". But, they convince themselves it's a "good enough" life.


Any man who is looking at marriage just for money and sex should not get married. It would be like having kids just to get great Father's Day gifts and not caring about actually being a parent. I absolutely agree that a man just concerned with his wealth and sex life will be happier single than married.

If a man is worried about his wealth, there are so many ways to ensure that won't be an issue. Get a prenup which states what happens in a divorce. Ensure that the W's income and assets are similar so that a 50/50 split won't really matter and there won't be alimony. If the W says she wants to quit work to stay at home for the kids, divorce right then so that her existing income means it will be an equal 50/50 split without alimony. Get 50/50 child custody so that child support is not an issue. There are so many ways for a man to protect his wealth that if he thinks he got burned, likely he didn't take steps that could have protected it.

I think a lot of people--both men and women--don't have the right personality or temperament marriage. The guy posting a thread on TAM like "My W had a kid 2 months ago and sex hasn't resumed to pre-kid level" shouldn't be married. If threads like these cause guys like that to think twice, Yiippie! The world will be a better place.


----------



## Diana7

dadstartingover said:


> I tell men that aren't interested in a LTR to be honest and upfront. _*"I'm not the type of guy that is good at a monogamous LTR. Just not something I'm looking for at the moment."*_ I think that's perfectly healthy, normal and adult. What's he saying? He's saying he realizes he enjoys the company and the romantic/fun side of the relationship, but he doesn't have the tools to make it as a successful monogamous long-term thing. The problem is that most of society shames him for that mindset. Much like you just did by equating such a man with a guy as a "user" and a man looking for a prostitute.
> 
> I think most of the men you describe want to give it a shot with a woman, but they see all of the red flags and pulls the eject button on the relationship quickly. This is also something I suggest to guys. Don't waste anybody's time. Yes, she may call you a scumbag for having sex and then dumping her, but it saves you the years of headaches and worse that come from a mismatched relationship.


She would be right to call a man a scum bag for having sex with her and then dumping her.


----------



## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> What I don’t understand is: since he was obviously able to make all this amazing stuff, including the world, people, quantum mechanics and Chuck E. Cheese why couldn’t he make a pen for himself and write the bible himself or at least get more competent people to write it for him more clearly, so that there weren’t any contradictions that people continue to argue and have wars over for centuries?
> 
> I think marriage is important from financial/tax point of view: it protects both parties, especially if there are children. Though I would rename it to ‘civil partnership’ and leave the religious aspects out of it.
> 
> If it’s more of a philosophical question, then I don’t know how to answer it...
> 
> To be fair, I got married because I found a very cool location to have a ‘wedding of a century’. It was an amazing party that people still talk about, 10 years later
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




That's one of the many amazing things about God, that He uses men to be part of His work. 
The basics in the Bible are not contradictory, its men who add things and ignore other things and decide for themselves rather than follow Gods word. 

Marriage in the Bible is far more than just a civil partnership, its a covenant relationship between 2 people.


----------



## notmyjamie

wxman3441 said:


> You are correct about men not changing. They dont. Women marry men with the hopes he will change. That slob you married.... he will still be a slob after you get married. Women need to understand this.
> 
> Accuse me to stirring up controversy if you want but there are financial incentives for women to divorce. That is a fact.


Not for me...and many like me. I make more than my STBX. I could very easily end up having to pay him alimony and child support. I work with a secretary. She makes $15/hr. She pays both to her ex. 

Also, go take a peek in any divorced women's forum and you'll find it's filled with women whose standard of living went way down after divorcing. I think the take away is that both parties suffer financially in a divorce.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> That's one of the many amazing things about God, that He uses men to be part of His work.



Why did He never use women for His work? I bet if He used women, then it probably would have been much clearer! Is He still hiring people? With the whole equal pay thing, maybe it’s something to consider for his future endeavours.
Is there a suggestion box? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheDudeLebowski

notmyjamie said:


> Not for me...and many like me. I make more than my STBX. I could very easily end up having to pay him alimony and child support. I work with a secretary. She makes $15/hr. She pays both to her ex.
> 
> Also, go take a peek in any divorced women's forum and you'll find it's filled with women whose standard of living went way down after divorcing. I think the take away is that both parties suffer financially in a divorce.


Yep. I dont think the standard of living thing has anything to do with the spouses who are splitting. It might be trying to maintain a stable environment for the kids. When I lost my job. We did everything in our power, including take on some debt and I drained my 401k to make sure our kids didn't feel the impact. 

With laws like these, you really cant build in a million and one exceptions and variables to apply to each different situation. The state just has to set the laws and apply them evenly. Someone's always going to get shafted. Someone's always going to exploit the system. It just is what it is.


----------



## Bibi1031

InMyPrime said:


> Why did He never use women for His work? I bet if He used women, then it probably would have been much clearer! Is He still hiring people? With the whole equal pay thing, maybe it’s something to consider for his future endeavours.
> Is there a suggestion box?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh come on dude, she meant men as in mankind/ humans/ **** sapiens. 0


----------



## 269370

Bibi1031 said:


> Oh come on dude, she meant men as in mankind/ humans/ **** sapiens. 0



Then that should also include ***** sapiens, to be pan inclusive...
Still...they were all male homos in practice, no? None of he 12 Apostels had boobs as far as I can tell. Which I think is a shame. There are so many wonderful female writers nowadays. Maybe it should be rewritten, after so many years? And include more details, with all the amazing sciency stuff we have learnt - I mean that God taught us - over the years...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> Why did He never use women for His work? I bet if He used women, then it probably would have been much clearer! Is He still hiring people? With the whole equal pay thing, maybe it’s something to consider for his future endeavours.
> Is there a suggestion box?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are many women in the Bible who God used in amazing and highly important ways. Deborah was leader and judge of the whole of Israel for a time. He uses women today as much as men. 
Of course I meant mankind, not just men.

The Bible doesn't need rewriting, all that we need is in there.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> There are many women in the Bible who God used in amazing and highly important ways. Deborah was leader and judge of the whole of Israel for a time. He uses women today as much as men.
> Of course I meant mankind, not just men.
> 
> The Bible doesn't need rewriting, all that we need is in there.




But it doesn’t say much about DNA  or what we should do with the ****ing Brexit...


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## TheDudeLebowski

InMyPrime said:


> But it doesn’t say much about DNA  or what we should do with the ****ing Brexit...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think Christians are supposed to be involved in politics. That goes completely against the concept of trusting God. As far as DNA, something about going forth and being fruitful and multiplying. A good understanding of genetic code will help with that. 

There's so much i want to say, but I don't want to burn my material on this post. :grin2:


----------



## 269370

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't think Christians are supposed to be involved in politics. That goes completely against the concept of trusting God. As far as DNA, something about going forth and being fruitful and multiplying. A good understanding of genetic code will help with that.
> 
> There's so much i want to say, but I don't want to burn my material on this post. :grin2:


I am just bantering...I like Diane and her values. They feel....familiar. I just am unable to arrive at them via the same road.


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## TheDudeLebowski

InMyPrime said:


> I am just bantering...I like Diane and her values. They feel....familiar. I just am unable to arrive at them via the same road.


Omg! Soooooooo much to say. I have the most hippy zen theory but you will have to wait to roll your eyes at it another day. :grin2:


----------



## Bibi1031

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't think Christians are supposed to be involved in politics...


Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. :smile2:

A good example of the quote above would be the mess created with Henry Vlll and the church in not so modern times, yet it still impacts many today who worship God not in the first church Jesus built, but one created by a later "Caesar," so to speak.

...and as not to derail this thread to a politics and religion issue, the division was caused by a man that wanted to divorce his wife.


----------



## PreRaph

What does a man get out of it? I'm not sure. I can tell you why I got married.

I married because I wanted to be with the woman I married. She and I shared things and I felt good about continuing to share our lives.

Sex is good when it's good. I didn't care whether she was a sexual dynamo who could please me without end. It was something we could share. I am no sexual olympian myself--far from it--and from time to time I do fantasize over a pair of fabulous breasts, but they aren't mine and won't be, and if she who owns them were mine, I'm not foolish enough to believe it would be the the greatest sex of my life.

Chasing girls around for the rest of my life didn't appeal to me.

She loved me and still does. That makes all the difference in the world.

I'm probably better for being with her. I am much more aware of my shortcomings and faults, as I am of things I do well.

I am not going to live forever, and to be with her is one thing that gives some meaning to my life.

It could all go wrong tomorrow, but what in life is certain anyway?

I'm not looking for a result, like saying these are the perks of marriage. Either it works or it doesn't, either the two of you find a way or you don't.


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## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> Yes, and those who wait for marriage before having sex which we did.




Ah. So someone not being a virgin is ok, but they had to have been married before to have sex before?

Kind of like the “Marriage hotels” in the middle east where you can get married and divorced in one night to have sex without sin?


----------



## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> My view is that God is perfectly able to have made sure that what he wanted in the Bible is in there, and also the Bible is still very relevant.



Wasn’t at all what I asked.


----------



## Marduk

CraigBesuden said:


> Women who divorce usually end up sitting alone in an apartment raising their kids and watching Netflix. The divorced men pay a large chunk to child support but have the time to date and have fun.
> 
> Divorce is not a good prospect for most women. It’s a last resort, not a first resort. I’ve yet to meet a women who wants to marry Joe Sixpack, have kids, divorce when the youngest is in first grade, then collect child support and alimony.



I know plenty of divorced women with kids that are very happy and well-off on their own... enjoy raising their kids when they have custody, and enjoy a fun dating life when they don’t.


----------



## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> I am just bantering...I like Diane and her values. They feel....familiar. I just am unable to arrive at them via the same road.


Fair enough.:smile2:


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> Ah. So someone not being a virgin is ok, but they had to have been married before to have sex before?
> 
> Kind of like the “Marriage hotels” in the middle east where you can get married and divorced in one night to have sex without sin?


No nothing like those marriage hotels. We don't live like that.


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> I know plenty of divorced women with kids that are very happy and well-off on their own... enjoy raising their kids when they have custody, and enjoy a fun dating life when they don’t.


Really? When I was a divorced mum of three I was very hard up, and so were most women I knew in my position.


----------



## Faithful Wife

CraigBesuden said:


> Women who divorce usually end up sitting alone in an apartment raising their kids and watching Netflix. The divorced men pay a large chunk to child support but have the time to date and have fun.
> 
> Divorce is not a good prospect for most women. It’s a last resort, not a first resort. I’ve yet to meet a women who wants to marry Joe Sixpack, have kids, divorce when the youngest is in first grade, then collect child support and alimony.


Of course most women do not go into marriage thinking they will be divorced, neither do men. 

But what you seem to be saying here is “just stay with him forever regardless of how bad the marriage is because you will be alone and rejected by men forever if you leave”.

This is nonsense. Just a weird sort of scare tactic.

All situations are different and some divorced men and women have a rough time after divorce. But most divorces I know of were ultimately good for both parties because they were miserable together and not miserable when they get free. 

Most divorced moms I know date divorced dads. They aren’t sitting at home whining about oh why oh why did I leave my husband. Nope, they are glad they are free and now have the chance to find someone better for them. This applies to the divorced dads, too.

Divorce sucks but not in the way you seem to think.


----------



## Livvie

Diana7 said:


> Marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know plenty of divorced women with kids that are very happy and well-off on their own... enjoy raising their kids when they have custody, and enjoy a fun dating life when they don’t.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? When I was a divorced mum of three I was very hard up, and so were many women like me.
Click to expand...

Uhhh huh. But are they, and are you perpetually "sitting alone in an apartment watching Netflix" as the poster CraigB stated? 

Obviously you arey. You dated and met your SECOND husband. 

The "alone-apartment-Netflix" comment was insulting and generalising. YOU Diana managed to date and find a SECOND husband, why don't you think other divorced women are able to do that???!


----------



## Diana7

Livvie said:


> Uhhh huh. But are they, and are you perpetually "sitting alone in an apartment watching Netflix" as the poster CraigB stated?
> 
> Obviously you arey. You dated and met your SECOND husband.
> 
> The "alone-apartment-Netflix" comment was insulting and generalising. YOU Diana managed to date and find a SECOND husband, why don't you think other divorced women are able to do that???!


Yes I did, on line dating. I was referring more to women who have financial issues after divorce.


----------



## Diana7

I was asking my husband about this thread earlier. He said that he cant think of one negative thing about marriage and being married.


----------



## Bluesclues

Faithful Wife said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> 
> Women who divorce usually end up sitting alone in an apartment raising their kids and watching Netflix. The divorced men pay a large chunk to child support but have the time to date and have fun.
> 
> Divorce is not a good prospect for most women. It’s a last resort, not a first resort. I’ve yet to meet a women who wants to marry Joe Sixpack, have kids, divorce when the youngest is in first grade, then collect child support and alimony.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course most women do not go into marriage thinking they will be divorced, neither do men.
> 
> But what you seem to be saying here is “just stay with him forever regardless of how bad the marriage is because you will be alone and rejected by men forever if you leave”.
> 
> This is nonsense. Just a weird sort of scare tactic.
> 
> All situations are different and some divorced men and women have a rough time after divorce. But most divorces I know of were ultimately good for both parties because they were miserable together and not miserable when they get free.
> 
> Most divorced moms I know date divorced dads. They aren’t sitting at home whining about oh why oh why did I leave my husband. Nope, they are glad they are free and now have the chance to find someone better for them. This applies to the divorced dads, too.
> 
> Divorce sucks but not in the way you seem to think.
Click to expand...

I didn’t read his comment as insulting to divorced women or a scare tactic that they will always be alone. I read it as sarcasm to men who are whining about having to pay child support and seem to think they are financing some lavish lifestyle where the ex wife is out clubbing all the time on their dime, which of course was their dubious plot all along. Obviously custody differs from family to family, but the traditional EOW scenario with dad gives the mom 4 days per month to easily socialize and gives the dad 26. The parent with majority custody is not doomed to be sad and alone but they face more challenges to get out than the parent with minority time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Bluesclues said:


> I didn’t read his comment as insulting to divorced women or a scare tactic that they will always be alone. I read it as sarcasm to men who are whining about having to pay child support and seem to think they are financing some lavish lifestyle where the ex wife is out clubbing all the time on their dime, which of course was their dubious plot all along. Obviously custody differs from family to family, but the traditional EOW scenario with dad gives the mom 4 days per month to easily socialize and gives the dad 26. The parent with majority custody is not doomed to be sad and alone but they face more challenges to get out than the parent with minority time.


Almost all of the divorced parents I know have joint custody, which means they both only have some free time, but enough to still have a life.

In my state joint custody is the norm and is assumed by the courts. Parents have to fight pretty hard to get full custody and most here don’t have cause to do that. 

So I don’t know divorced dads who are out carousing all the time while mom is home all the time. When I think of divorced parents I don’t assume one parent has more custody because that’s just not what I see happening.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I was asking my husband about this thread earlier. He said that he cant think of one negative thing about marriage and being married.


Likely wasn’t emotionally/physically abused or financially raked over the coals in divorce, and good for him if he wasn’t. I am pro marriage but i can think of plenty of negatives and risks associated with it.


----------



## Sukisue1234

Not always cynthia, there are cases where women marry men who are not wealthy because they love them.and there is not any real benefit s like you mentioned


----------



## BruceBanner

Diana7 said:


> Sorry but you are wrong.Why do you think that so many men get married again so quickly after their spouse has either died or the marriage has ended? Because they like being married. Married men are happier and healthier(not single men or those who live together). If they hated it so much they wouldn't get married again.
> 
> I know so many men who love their wives and love being married. Many in my own family.
> 
> Your views have been formed by your own bitterness and resentment , so much so that you cant see that marriage for many is very beneficial and good.
> 
> I had a very painful and traumatic time caused by my first husband, so do I then hate and blame all men and marriage in general? Or do I be realistic and understand that not all men are like him, and that marriage is inheritantly good and beneficial for men women and children alike? I chose the latter.


When you look at the facts there is little beneficial. If more men took a step back, stopped being emotional, and actually looked at the **** they're signing up for when they decide they're stupidly going to get married we'd see a lot less married men and possibly a lot less suicidal men.



Diana7 said:


> I was asking my husband about this thread earlier. He said that he cant think of one negative thing about marriage and being married.


Your husband is naive and woefully uninformed.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Likely wasn’t emotionally/physically abused or financially raked over the coals in divorce, and good for him if he wasn’t. I am pro marriage but i can think of plenty of negatives and risks associated with it.


 You are talking about divorce not marriage. Yes he was cheated on and being the man he is he felt it was wrong to fight in court so he let his wife have their home. Didn't put him off marrying again and he loves being married. 
There are risks in all that we do, so what? There are risks in getting married for men and women, it would never put us off marriage. Far more couples who live together break up anyway, so its not marriage that causes that.


----------



## Diana7

BruceBanner said:


> When you look at the facts there is little beneficial. If more men took a step back, stopped being emotional, and actually looked at the **** they're signing up for when they decide they're stupidly going to get married we'd see a lot less married men and possibly a lot less suicidal men.
> 
> 
> 
> Your husband is naive and woefully uninformed.


No, he just values marriage highly and enjoys being married. 
A man who was divorced and cheated on by his ex after 23 years of marriage is hardly woefully informed. Didnt put him off marriage and we married 14 years ago. Neither of us have any regrets at all. 

BTW many single/divorced and widowed men take their lives, probably far more often than married ones. 

Again you are projecting you own bitterness onto all men and all marriages. We know countless men and women in long and very happy marriages. 

Dont get married if you dont want to, but remember that most men do not feel as you do.


----------



## RebuildingMe

Diana, you say you are happily married 14 years. You mention your husband in just about every post. He’s the ultimate husband it sounds. Got burnt, didn’t fight, lost almost everything and dove right back in to another M. So what brought you to a marriage site 3 years ago? I’m curious.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

RebuildingMe said:


> Diana, you say you are happily married 14 years. You mention your husband in just about every post. He’s the ultimate husband it sounds. Got burnt, didn’t fight, lost almost everything and dove right back in to another M. So what brought you to a marriage site 3 years ago? I’m curious.


Not an answer for Diana, just myself. 

My marriage is great. Your user name describes why I ended up here. I don't know why this place, but when you are on a path in life that isn't bringing you happiness, its easy to question everything about the path you are on. Including your M. Personally, instead of rebuilding me, I was still looking to run from my own issues. Question everything and everyone else instead of the things I was doing that are/were bringing me unhappiness. Keeping me depressed. All my fears and insecurities that were driving me insane and ruling my life, my decisions, my actions, my internal dialogue. All the past trauma I had never dealt with. All the guilt I carry. All the trust and abandonment issues. I was running away when I came here. Running from myself. 

I've seen some others who I believe were in a similar situation when they first signed up at TAM as well. Their M as strong as anyone's. Why did they come here? I asked that same question myself sometimes. I'm sure some had an issue in their M that they needed to think through and seeked out perspective from others. Then found out they like the people here they were talking to. So they stuck around. Now there's a bunch of friends here who just enjoy chatting with each other. I don't really look much at people's old threads to find out all of their backstory. Not that I don't care, but because people change and grow. If an issue is worth repeating for them, I figure I'll see it sooner or later as they continue to work through it.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> You are talking about divorce not marriage. Yes he was cheated on and being the man he is he felt it was wrong to fight in court so he let his wife have their home. Didn't put him off marrying again and he loves being married.
> There are risks in all that we do, so what? There are risks in getting married for men and women, it would never put us off marriage. Far more couples who live together break up anyway, so its not marriage that causes that.


i spoke of both. And it didn’t put me off of marriage either. I was simply stating that both men and women have pause to be concerned entering into such an arrangement.


----------



## Diana7

RebuildingMe said:


> Diana, you say you are happily married 14 years. You mention your husband in just about every post. He’s the ultimate husband it sounds. Got burnt, didn’t fight, lost almost everything and dove right back in to another M. So what brought you to a marriage site 3 years ago? I’m curious.


Firstly I only mention him when its relevant, as in this thread about men and marriage, secondly I am passionate about marriage hence me being here. I love to get thoughts and ideas and different views about life in general and marriage especially. I also love discussions generally and I also hope that in some small way I may occasionally be able to help someone or give some insight into their situation partly due to the things I have been though in life.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> i spoke of both. And it didn’t put me off of marriage either. I was simply stating that both men and women have pause to be concerned entering into such an arrangement.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> i spoke of both. And it didn’t put me off of marriage either. I was simply stating that both men and women have pause to be concerned entering into such an arrangement.


Of course, and we are both previously divorced after long first marriages, but I would rather go on with life, let go of the past and not let what has happened make me bitter and angry about men and marriage in general or stop me from marrying again.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> Of course, and we are both previously divorced after long first marriages, but I would rather go on with life and not let what has happened make me bitter and angry about men and marriage in general.


As did I but I enter my coming marriage eyes wide open and with some protections in place. 

The only real mistake is to not learn from our past


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> As did I but I enter my coming marriage eyes wide open and with some protections in place.
> 
> The only real mistake is to not learn from our past


I don't believe in prenups if that's what you mean, neither of us do, that's not what marriage is about to us. All that either had coming into the marriage is ours and not his or mine. 
We have both learnt such a lot from the things we have faced in life, and were far more mature in our late 40's than when we both married initially. However neither of us believes in divorce except for the most serious of reasons. Sadly I had no real choice, and he was divorced against his will by his ex. He would never have ended his marriage despite not being very happy as he believes that if you make promises you keep them.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I don't believe in prenups if that's what you mean, neither of us do, that's not what marriage is about to us. All that either had coming into the marriage is ours and not his or mine.
> We have both learnt such a lot from the things we have faced in life, and were far more mature in our late 40's than when we both married initially. However neither of us believes in divorce except for the most serious of reasons. Sadly I had no real choice, and he was divorced against his will by his ex. He would never have ended his marriage despite not being very happy as he believes that if you make promises you keep them.


I don’t think anyone expects divorce but the truth is you can do everything right and still end up there. Was one of the hardest lessons of my life. 

And that’s cool of you don’t believe in prenups. I would never again marry without one but to each their own. I won’t jeopardize my kids security by decisions I make in this regard.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> I don’t think anyone expects divorce but the truth is you can do everything right and still end up there. Was one of the hardest lessons of my life.
> 
> And that’s cool of you don’t believe in prenups. I would never again marry without one but to each their own. I won’t jeopardize my kids security by decisions I make in this regard.


We are both Christians and would never divorce except the most serious reasons such as if the spouse and children were in danger or there was repeated cheating. 
I wouldn't risk my childrens inheritance either.We both have wills, and having seen how decently and kindly hedealt with his former wife in their divorce(he didn't even have a solicitor),I know that he would always be like that with me although neither of us would divorce the other anyway. We are both in our 60's and are together for life. 
If I couldn't trust him in that way I wouldn't have married him.


----------



## dadstartingover

Diana7 said:


> She would be right to call a man a scum bag for having sex with her and then dumping her.


Man and woman meet. They really like each other. They quickly have sex. Woman starts exhibiting really concerning and unhealthy behavior. Man bails out. Man is scum?


----------



## Numb26

dadstartingover said:


> Diana7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She would be right to call a man a scum bag for having sex with her and then dumping her.
> 
> 
> 
> Man and woman meet. They really like each other. They quickly have sex. Woman starts exhibiting really concerning and unhealthy behavior. Man bails out. Man is scum?
Click to expand...

That about sums up what is being taught to everyone


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> We are both Christians and would never divorce except the most serious reasons such as if the spouse and children were in danger or there was repeated cheating.
> I wouldn't risk *my childrens inheritance either*.We both have wills, and having seen how decently and kindly hedealt with his former wife in their divorce(he didn't even have a solicitor),I know that he would always be like that with me although neither of us would divorce the other anyway. We are both in our 60's and are together for life.
> If I couldn't trust him in that way I wouldn't have married him.


Will have to agree to disagree then. That’s exactly what you are doing without some protections in place. Hope that works out for you...seen many times where it hasn’t


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Will have to agree to disagree then. That’s exactly what you are doing without some protections in place. Hope that works out for you...seen many times where it hasn’t


I married a man who I trust 100%. I have been married for 14 years and know that he is a man of great integrity and decency. He loves my children and hasn't got it in him to treat them badly. So no, I am not risking anything. 

Prenups are for those who are already thinking of divorce before they even marry. Who don't trust their spouses.


----------



## Marduk

Diana7 said:


> No nothing like those marriage hotels. We don't live like that.


What's the difference?

Where exactly does sex become a sin or not? Where exactly does it become harmful to your future marriage and when does it not?


----------



## *Deidre*

I think it depends on how people define marriage. If you're getting married to have a series of ''needs met,'' and for someone to fix all of the things in your life, and ''make you happy,'' then you shouldn't get married. It's no surprise why most second marriages that result from affairs (leaving their first marriages) have an even higher divorce rate than first marriages. If you are looking for someone to just be like a genie in a bottle, and they're there to grant your every wish without fail, marriage might not be for you.

Marriage is about commiting to someone, through good and bad times. That doesn't mean you accept any and all behaviors, but it means that you are seeking to help each other, serve the other. But, many people go into it thinking that it's designed to make them happy and as soon as the spouse falls short, they're off looking to see if the grass is greener elsewhere.

Water and take care of your own grass when married, and the grass will be green enough for you. Just how I've come to view marriage, anyway.


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> Where exactly does sex become a sin or not? Where exactly does it become harmful to your future marriage and when does it not?


For Christians sex is for a committed marriage between a man and a woman. Anything outside that is a sin.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Diana7 said:


> Marduk said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the difference?
> 
> Where exactly does sex become a sin or not? Where exactly does it become harmful to your future marriage and when does it not?
> 
> 
> 
> For Christians sex is for a committed marriage between a man and a woman. Anything outside that is a sin.
Click to expand...

Fornication is a sin. Fornication includes sexual intercourse with someone not your spouse, consorting with prostitutes, and incest.

Oral sex is not fornication and is Biblically permitted for single Christians.


----------



## Faithful Wife

dadstartingover said:


> Man and woman meet. They really like each other. They quickly have sex. Woman starts exhibiting really concerning and unhealthy behavior. Man bails out. Man is scum?


The problem with this is that the man should know better than to stick it in crazy, and if he doesn't bother to find out if she is crazy BEFORE he sticks it in her, what would he expect? So then crazy is going to boil his bunnies, and he's sitting there going "why do I deserve this?" 

Well....because you don't stick it in crazy, remember?

Oh, but I didn't know!

That's right, you didn't, because you went for it immediately before knowing her a bit. Your problem.

Same happens to women who don't suss out the crazies first. Sleep together too soon, you are taking your chances by not knowing this person at all.


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> For Christians sex is for a committed marriage between a man and a woman. Anything outside that is a sin.



Could there have been a misprint perhaps? Maybe it should have read: ...between a man and a wow-man*!

*it’s a man where you go, like, WOW! 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

CraigBesuden said:


> Oral sex is not fornication and is Biblically permitted for single Christians.



How are you supposed to engage in oral as a single Christian, or single anything for that matter? 
Prince-style? (Where you take out one of your rib cages in order to reach, you know, the little red corvette 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Wolf1974 said:


> I don’t think anyone expects divorce but the truth is you can do everything right and still end up there. Was one of the hardest lessons of my life.
> 
> And that’s cool of you don’t believe in prenups. I would never again marry without one but to each their own. I won’t jeopardize my kids security by decisions I make in this regard.


Nobody does everything right. Thats an arrogant statement without any hint of introspection.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> Where exactly does sex become a sin or not? Where exactly does it become harmful to your future marriage and when does it not?


1) when you sacrifice your beliefs or silence your own morals for the physical pleasures in life. Similar to an addict. 

2) guilt and self loathing for your bad decisions you made stick with you and you carry those into your M. Perhaps even project your own sins on to your spouse. Consciously or subconsciously. It won't impact your M if you come to terms with your sins, and forgive yourself for your past transgressions. Then recognize everyone as an individual and not some perverted vicariously viewed and jaded reflection of yourself.

Diana's own code works for her. It works so well in fact, that she believes it can work for everyone the same. A different kind of jaded view, albeit one from a place of love and genuinely wanting to help other people.


----------



## Wolf1974

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Nobody does everything right. Thats an arrogant statement without any hint of introspection.


So you were there. You know huh

you CAN do things right but when dealing with a spouse with mental illness it doesn’t matter 

But I get some people have to justify things to fit their world view


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I married a man who I trust 100%. I have been married for 14 years and know that he is a man of great integrity and decency. He loves my children and hasn't got it in him to treat them badly. So no, I am not *risking anything.
> 
> Prenups are for those who are already thinking of divorce before they even marry. Who don't trust their spouses.*




So many things wrong with this but like I said different strokes for different folks. Hope that works out for you...not meant as snarky I always hope things work in marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> The problem with this is that the man should know better than to stick it in crazy, and if he doesn't bother to find out if she is crazy BEFORE he sticks it in her, what would he expect? So then crazy is going to boil his bunnies, and he's sitting there going "why do I deserve this?"
> 
> Well....because you don't stick it in crazy, remember?
> 
> Oh, but I didn't know!
> 
> That's right, you didn't, because you went for it immediately before knowing her a bit. Your problem.
> 
> Same happens to women who don't suss out the crazies first. Sleep together too soon, you are taking your chances by not knowing this person at all.


Great sentiment and agree so long as it’s present BEFORE sticking it in. Not always the case. Mental illness can come after the wedding in some cases years later. 

Depends on the crazy I suppose


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Wolf1974 said:


> So you were there. You know huh
> 
> you CAN do things right but when dealing with a spouse with mental illness it doesn’t matter
> 
> But I get some people have to justify things to fit their world view


Well call yourself Jesus and die for our sins oh mr perfect one. Why don't you save us?


----------



## Wolf1974

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well call yourself Jesus and die for our sins oh mr perfect one. Why don't you save us?


Hey you’re the all knowing so will leave the walking on water to you Dude :grin2:


----------



## Marduk

TheDudeLebowski said:


> 1) when you sacrifice your beliefs or silence your own morals for the physical pleasures in life. Similar to an addict.
> 
> 2) guilt and self loathing for your bad decisions you made stick with you and you carry those into your M. Perhaps even project your own sins on to your spouse. Consciously or subconsciously. It won't impact your M if you come to terms with your sins, and forgive yourself for your past transgressions. Then recognize everyone as an individual and not some perverted vicariously viewed and jaded reflection of yourself.
> 
> Diana's own code works for her. It works so well in fact, that she believes it can work for everyone the same. A different kind of jaded view, albeit one from a place of love and genuinely wanting to help other people.


I’m just playing. 

I found it interesting that Diane went on about the best marriages being between virgins, and yet that wasn’t the case in her marriage. So I was fascinated by the sanctimonious tone. 

What I got instead was both her and Craig both speaking for Christians, saying different things. 

And I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say BJs before marriage are ok in the bible. I’m fascinated by people being so very sure, and yet so very unsubstantiated. I find it fascinating.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Marduk said:


> I’m just playing.
> 
> I found it interesting that Diane went on about the best marriages being between virgins, and yet that wasn’t the case in her marriage. So I was fascinated by the sanctimonious tone.
> 
> What I got instead was both her and Craig both speaking for Christians, saying different things.
> 
> And I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say BJs before marriage are ok in the bible. I’m fascinated by people being so very sure, and yet so very unsubstantiated. I find it fascinating.


I'm 100% positive there is a God and I have no way to give you proof. I just know what I felt and I know what I experienced. So count me in with that group. :wink2:


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

Just ignore me wolf. I've been drinking. My apologies. I dont know you, even still, I'm sure you are a far better man than I am.


----------



## Diana7

CraigBesuden said:


> Fornication is a sin. Fornication includes sexual intercourse with someone not your spouse, consorting with prostitutes, and incest.
> 
> Oral sex is not fornication and is Biblically permitted for single Christians.


Oral sex isn't permitted for single Christians. Its sex under a different guise. There are no loopholes here.


----------



## Diana7

Marduk said:


> I’m just playing.
> 
> I found it interesting that Diane went on about the best marriages being between virgins, and yet that wasn’t the case in her marriage. So I was fascinated by the sanctimonious tone.
> 
> What I got instead was both her and Craig both speaking for Christians, saying different things.
> 
> And I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say BJs before marriage are ok in the bible. I’m fascinated by people being so very sure, and yet so very unsubstantiated. I find it fascinating.


Oral sex isn't permitted till marriage. Its still sex. 
The best marriages I know are between those who waited till marriage for sex. 
While we weren't virgins due to previous marriages we didn't have sex till we married. 
I think that Craig is looking for loopholes.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> [/U][/B]
> 
> So many things wrong with this but like I said different strokes for different folks. Hope that works out for you...not meant as snarky I always hope things work in marriage.


Marriage for us is for life barring serious abuse or other very serious things. Being he isn't abusive and cheating isn't in his dna nor mine, divorce is highly unlikely. We don't believe in divorce otherwise and thanks but I am not risking anything by not planning for a divorce before I even got married.
I trust him. He trusts me, its not an issue. I would not have married against if I wasn't sure that he was a man of integrity.


----------



## Diana7

InMyPrime said:


> How are you supposed to engage in oral as a single Christian, or single anything for that matter?
> Prince-style? (Where you take out one of your rib cages in order to reach, you know, the little red corvette
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its sex and isn't permitted for Christians outside marriage.


----------



## Personal

Diana7 said:


> The best marriages I know are between those who waited till marriage for sex.


Likewise the best marriages I know are between those who fornicated with lustful abandon without waiting for marriage.


----------



## Diana7

Personal said:


> Likewise the best marriages I know are between those who fornicated with lustful abandon without waiting for marriage.


Marriages where they waited for marriage before sex and didn't live together are more likely to last.


----------



## Personal

@Diana7 yours didn't last. So keeping your virginity until marriage didn't stop you getting divorced.

As to the claim that they're more likely to last. It is nonsense having come from a flawed study. With an unrepresentative sample group, by Busby who is a Mormon Professor of a Mormon University.

On marriages lasting it is worth noting that divorce spiked upwards significantly in the UK, Australia and the US etc, when it became easier to divorce legally. in an era where most marriages were virginal ones. While divorce has been on a downward trend, since the late 1990s, where most married people have had sex before marriage.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wolf1974 said:


> Great sentiment and agree so long as it’s present BEFORE sticking it in. Not always the case. Mental illness can come after the wedding in some cases years later.
> 
> Depends on the crazy I suppose


Well sure. Mental illness can be masked for a very long time or be essentially dormant for years or decades.

But the quote I was responding to was about a quick hookup, not an eventual marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

Faithful Wife said:


> Well sure. Mental illness can be masked for a very long time or be essentially dormant for years or decades.
> 
> But the quote I was responding to was about a quick hookup, not an eventual marriage.


I know I got that. But sometimes those quick hookups turn into marriages lol. I was only making the point that you don’t always know what your getting is all

Yes sometimes it’s painfully and thankfully obvious. It’s like the people who date,engage, then marry someone who isn’t into sex then years later come here asking why their spouse never wants sex. Come one now someone wasn’t paying attention


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> Marriage for us is for life barring serious abuse or other very serious things. Being he isn't abusive and cheating isn't in his dna nor mine, divorce is highly unlikely. We don't believe in divorce otherwise and thanks but I am not risking anything by not planning for a divorce before I even got married.
> I trust him. He trusts me, its not an issue. I would not have married against if I wasn't sure that he was a man of integrity.


Yeah you said all this, few times now. I *believe you*, just don’t agree with you. Not sure who you’re trying to convince anymore me or you.


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Yeah you said all this, few times now. I *believe you*, just don’t agree with you. Not sure who you’re trying to convince anymore me or you.


I am trying to understand why anyone would think that thinking about and preparing for a divorce before you even get married is a good idea.
Prenups are just that. As I see it its doing something out of fear, the fear of loosing money. Also as I see it when we marry what we both had becomes ours anyway so a pre-nup is irrelevant. 

My children are all above 30, so their security isn't with us any more. They will get their inheritance when I die. As I said its about whether we trust our spouse or not.


----------



## Diana7

Personal said:


> @Diana7 yours didn't last. So keeping your virginity until marriage didn't stop you getting divorced.
> 
> As to the claim that they're more likely to last. It is nonsense having come from a flawed study. With an unrepresentative sample group, by Busby who is a Mormon Professor of a Mormon University.
> 
> On marriages lasting it is worth noting that divorce spiked upwards significantly in the UK, Australia and the US etc, when it became easier to divorce legally. in an era where most marriages were virginal ones. While divorce has been on a downward trend, since the late 1990s, where most married people have had sex before marriage.


I never said all marriages where they wait till marriage for sex last for life, I said that far more do than where they don't. Alost all of the long marriages that I know of were in the former category. The happiest as well.


----------



## MattMatt

MODERATOR NOTE: The religious posts belong in the religion section.

No more off topic posts here, please?


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I am trying to understand why anyone would think that thinking about and preparing for a divorce before you even get married is a good idea.
> Prenups are just that. As I see it its doing something out of fear, the fear of loosing money. Also as I see it when we marry what we both had becomes ours anyway so a pre-nup is irrelevant.
> 
> My children are all above 30, so their security isn't with us any more. They will get their inheritance when I die. As I said its about whether we trust our spouse or not.


Simple because marriages end all the time especially for Second marriages. And yes 100% prenups are for protections in place for that. No clue how divorce courts work in UK but in US they are insane. Real world example is that a guy owned his home and raised is his kids in it, think they were 14/15 at the time. This was his home he had with his previous wife and mother of his kids. It his home, in his name, paid off. He meets woman, falls in love, gets married. 4 years in she decides she needs to not be married and wants to “find herself” whatever that means. The judge awards her the house and he is forced to move himself and his kids out. I have other crazy examples this is just one.

You look at prenups as a notion of planning for divorce. I see them as insurance in case divorce happens. I don’t plan to have a car accident today but I damn sure have insurance because while I control what I do while driving I’m not the only one on the road. I never plan to divorce, but then again I never planned to divorce my first marriage either. Never wanted it to happen but it did anyway. Don’t want it to happen this time either but since you don’t need consent to divorce it is what it is. My kids are 9/13, my x wife left when my youngest was 8months. They rely on me for stability because I am the only one giving it to them.

I am willing to take a chance with my heart again, I think my finance is worth it. But I will never take a chance with my kids financial future or home security. I have a responsibility to them beyond my own wants and desires. If you can’t understand that then we are clearly different parents.

Prenups get a bad wrap ( mostly because people don’t seem to understand what they are, how they work, what their limitations are )but for anyone coming in with assets they are needed. Anyone who have kids they have to look after they are needed. I would argue they should be required as part of the marriage process. 

So again glad you trust your spouse, trust mine as well. I suspect you trusted your first spouse like I trusted mine and yet we are both divorced. Life happens sometimes.


----------



## badsanta

wxman3441 said:


> What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?


Citizenship to your spouse's country (if different from your own)


----------



## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Simple because marriages end all the time especially for Second marriages. And yes 100% prenups are for protections in place for that. No clue how divorce courts work in UK but in US they are insane. Real world example is that a guy owned his home and raised is his kids in it, think they were 14/15 at the time. This was his home he had with his previous wife and mother of his kids. It his home, in his name, paid off. He meets woman, falls in love, gets married. 4 years in she decides she needs to not be married and wants to “find herself” whatever that means. The judge awards her the house and he is forced to move himself and his kids out. I have other crazy examples this is just one.
> 
> You look at prenups as a notion of planning for divorce. I see them as insurance in case divorce happens. I don’t plan to have a car accident today but I damn sure have insurance because while I control what I do while driving I’m not the only one on the road. I never plan to divorce, but then again I never planned to divorce my first marriage either. Never wanted it to happen but it did anyway. Don’t want it to happen this time either but since you don’t need consent to divorce it is what it is. My kids are 9/13, my x wife left when my youngest was 8months. They rely on me for stability because I am the only one giving it to them.
> 
> I am willing to take a chance with my heart again, I think my finance is worth it. But I will never take a chance with my kids financial future or home security. I have a responsibility to them beyond my own wants and desires. If you can’t understand that then we are clearly different parents.
> 
> Prenups get a bad wrap ( mostly because people don’t seem to understand what they are, how they work, what their limitations are )but for anyone coming in with assets they are needed. Anyone who have kids they have to look after they are needed. I would argue they should be required as part of the marriage process.
> 
> So again glad you trust your spouse, trust mine as well. I suspect you trusted your first spouse like I trusted mine and yet we are both divorced. Life happens sometimes.


Your children were much younger, my youngest was 18 when I married my husband. They had all left home by their early 20's so had no need for me to give them any security in that sense, and besides that he is the best step dad and step granddad ever. So no I doubt we are different parents, me being with him has enriched their lives immensely. My children wouldn't get pre-nups either, the ones who are married didn't. Its pretty rare for couples to get them here, I don't know a single couple who has one. 

My first husband and I more or less sorted out the arrangements of the divorce ourselves. I had the house and he had the equivalent amount in things like his good pension. 
My now husband actually gave his former wife their house to avoid fighting in the courts, that's the sort of man he is. God very soon blessed him with a wife and a new home. 
Many assume that the reason I refuse to even think about a prenup is because I came into the marriage with little and my husband had lots of money and assets. No I had a house and he had very little. 

This time I was 30 years older, much wiser and knew the sort of man I wanted. A man of real integrity, strong moral values and honesty. A man who shared my strong faith. I know that whatever happens he would treat me with respect and decency as he did his ex who cheated on him and divorced him. Neither of us are greedy, neither of us is bothered about being rich, we both treated our former spouses with fairness and decency despite what they did, and we would do the same to each other if anything happened this time.

I am not even sure if they are entirely legal in any case here. 


So I don't need a prenup, and I would never marry a man who wanted one. We see marriage as everything being joint anyway.If I didn't know my husband well enough or trusted him completely I would not have married him.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

I understand but hate the idea of a prenup. Marriage should be more than "hope it works, but just in case..." Its very sad that its come to that. I would rather people just not marry if that is how meaningless it is to them.


----------



## Girl_power

I hate the idea of a prenup as well. However, because I am the higher earner, I want a prenup that says he will not be able to accept alimony in case of divorce. The idea of paying a man alimony that doesn’t stay home with the kids is crazy to me.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11

Girl_power said:


> I hate the idea of a prenup as well. However, because I am the higher earner, I want a prenup that says he will not be able to accept alimony in case of divorce. The idea of paying a man alimony that doesn’t stay home with the kids is crazy to me.


Agree, the courts have made marriage a get rich fast scheme for many.


----------



## OnTheFly

Girl_power said:


> The idea of paying a man alimony that doesn’t stay home with the kids is crazy to me.


Not arguing with you, but alimony and child support are decided upon by different criteria. 

I'm of the opinion alimony, in most cases, is unnecessary. Child support, however, is very important.

Prenups, in general, are just a sign of the times, sad to say.


----------



## Girl_power

OnTheFly said:


> Not arguing with you, but alimony and child support are decided upon by different criteria.
> 
> I'm of the opinion alimony, in most cases, is unnecessary. Child support, however, is very important.
> 
> Prenups, in general, are just a sign of the times, sad to say.




I understand child support. The only time I believe in alimony is when a spouse gives up a career to stay home with the children.


----------



## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> Your children were much younger, my youngest was 18 when I married my husband. They had all left home by their early 20's so had no need for me to give them any security in that sense, and besides that he is the best step dad and step granddad ever. So no I doubt we are different parents, me being with him has enriched their lives immensely. My children wouldn't get pre-nups either, the ones who are married didn't. Its pretty rare for couples to get them here, I don't know a single couple who has one.
> 
> My first husband and I more or less sorted out the arrangements of the divorce ourselves. I had the house and he had the equivalent amount in things like his good pension.
> My now husband actually gave his former wife their house to avoid fighting in the courts, that's the sort of man he is. God very soon blessed him with a wife and a new home.
> Many assume that the reason I refuse to even think about a prenup is because I came into the marriage with little and my husband had lots of money and assets. No I had a house and he had very little.
> 
> This time I was 30 years older, much wiser and knew the sort of man I wanted. A man of real integrity, strong moral values and honesty. A man who shared my strong faith. I know that whatever happens he would treat me with respect and decency as he did his ex who cheated on him and divorced him. Neither of us are greedy, neither of us is bothered about being rich, we both treated our former spouses with fairness and decency despite what they did, and we would do the same to each other if anything happened this time.
> 
> I am not even sure if they are entirely legal in any case here.
> 
> 
> So I don't need a prenup, and I would *never marry a man who wanted one*. We see marriage as everything being joint anyway.If I didn't know my husband well enough or trusted him completely I would not have married him.


Like I said we are very different people who look at this totally different. I would never marry a woman without one in this country. Was never an issue. She gets it. None of my friends who are with their original partner have them. All my remarried friends do. Different stages of life


----------



## Wolf1974

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I understand but hate the idea of a prenup. Marriage should be more than "hope it works, but just in case..." Its very sad that its come to that. I would rather people just not marry if that is how meaningless it is to them.


I would actually prefer that family Courts ruled with sanity making them unneeded. But I don’t see that ever happening sadly


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Wolf1974 said:


> Like I said we are very different people who look at this totally different. I would never marry a woman without one in this country. Was never an issue. She gets it. None of my friends who are with their original partner have them. All my remarried friends do. Different stages of life


Why even marry, then? What's the benefit for you?


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## Wolf1974

Girl_power said:


> I hate the idea of a prenup as well. However, because I am the higher earner, I want a prenup that says he will not be able to accept alimony in case of divorce. The idea of paying a man alimony that doesn’t stay home with the kids is crazy to me.


I agree with but be certain that you can protect this (alimony) with a prenup. Alimony can’t be administered through a prenup here. Only certain assets and certain accounts. My STBW makes what I do so I wouldn’t suspect I would have to pay alimony but the courts being what they are I realize it could be a possibility


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## Wolf1974

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why even marry, then? What's the benefit for you?


Really you see marriage as only a financial endeavor? I certainly don’t


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## Girl_power

Wolf1974 said:


> I agree with but be certain that you can protect this (alimony) with a prenup. Alimony can’t be administered through a prenup here. Only certain assets and certain accounts. My STBW makes what I do so I wouldn’t suspect I would have to pay alimony but the courts being what they are I realize it could be a possibility




Yea I’ll have to look into it when the time comes. I’m pretty sure celebrities do it all the time.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Wolf1974 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why even marry, then? What's the benefit for you?
> 
> 
> 
> Really you see marriage as only a financial endeavor? I certainly don’t
Click to expand...

No. I mean if you want to have kids and stuff, I get it. Otherwise, why do it?


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## Wolf1974

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> No. I mean if you want to have kids and stuff, I get it. Otherwise, why do it?


No kids done with that.

Why?

Love 
honor 
commitment 
To stand before people you love and make a promise before them
To have someone to share life with as we go through the back half of life
Someone to share goals with and the celebration of accomplishing those goals

And ironically some financial protections so that when I die she gets things I worked hard my entire life for and want her to have

Seems like a lot of benefit to me but as I said I am pro marriage so I get not everyone feels this way or they think I could date and get all this as well


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Wolf1974 said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No. I mean if you want to have kids and stuff, I get it. Otherwise, why do it?
> 
> 
> 
> No kids done with that.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Love
> honor
> commitment
> To stand before people you love and make a promise before them
> To have someone to share life with as we go through the back half of life
> Someone to share goals with and the celebration of accomplishing those goals
> 
> And ironically some financial protections so that when I die she gets things I worked hard my entire life for and want her to have
> 
> Seems like a lot of benefit to me but as I said I am pro marriage so I get not everyone feels this way or they think I could date and get all this as well
Click to expand...

You forgot 'someone to wipe your ass in old age'


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## Wolf1974

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> You forgot 'someone to wipe your ass in old age'


Don’t suspect I’ll be alive long enough to not be able to do that for myself but ok if that’s something you prefer to hang your hat on


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## Betrayedone

Diana7 said:


> I married a man who I trust 100%. I have been married for 14 years and know that he is a man of great integrity and decency. He loves my children and hasn't got it in him to treat them badly. So no, I am not risking anything.
> 
> Prenups are for those who are already thinking of divorce before they even marry. Who don't trust their spouses.


You are so wrong.....It's for those that don't trust the institution.......


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## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Like I said we are very different people who look at this totally different. I would never marry a woman without one in this country. Was never an issue. She gets it. None of my friends who are with their original partner have them. All my remarried friends do. Different stages of life


Maybe its an American thing, but here they seem to be rare even for those who like us are in their second marriage. I would rather not be married than have to resort to such a thing.


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## Diana7

Betrayedone said:


> You are so wrong.....It's for those that don't trust the institution.......


Then don't get married. 
If you trust your spouse they are not needed. Its like saying well ok, I love you but I don't think you are to be trusted so just in case I will protect my money.


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## Diana7

Girl_power said:


> Yea I’ll have to look into it when the time comes. I’m pretty sure celebrities do it all the time.


Yes and one thing I would never do is copy the celebrities, on principle.


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## Diana7

OnTheFly said:


> Not arguing with you, but alimony and child support are decided upon by different criteria.
> 
> I'm of the opinion alimony, in most cases, is unnecessary. Child support, however, is very important.
> 
> Prenups, in general, are just a sign of the times, sad to say.


They don't need to be though. 

I think that it depends on what you see marriage as. I don't see marriage as somethings being yours and some mine, but as being ours. All my worldly goods I thee endow etc. If I couldn't do that then I would rather be single.


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## Livvie

Diana you say that, yet your yourself had a failed marriage. You are divorced.


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## Diana7

Livvie said:


> Diana you say that, yet your yourself had a failed marriage. You are divorced.


yes I am divorced after a previous 25 year marriage. As I said a few posts ago I married this time at 30 years older, much wiser, much more sure of the sort of man I wanted. Being divorced doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in pre-nups. Its just made me be far more careful and far more fussy this time as to who I married. If I couldn't have found a man who I trusted 100%, I wouldn't have got married. 
I also think it depends on what you value most in life. Money or family. Money or marriage. One very important aspect is that I trust God for my future no matter what happens, rather than some legal agreement that the courts here may or may not take any notice of anyway.


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## 2&out

All I know is what I have now is mine and will remain mine - and my kids will get/inherit. Going forward after I am negotiable. 

I am one who thinks marriage for older, established men has little value or benefit. If "trust" or commitment is why to do, "document" then I'll pass. Both of those are a given to me or why would I be in this relationship ? A prelim is no different then a marriage certificate IMHO.


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## Diana7

2&out said:


> All I know is what I have now is mine and will remain mine - and my kids will get/inherit. Going forward after I am negotiable.
> 
> I am one who thinks marriage for older, established men has little value or benefit. If "trust" or commitment is why to do, "document" then I'll pass. Both of those are a given to me or why would I be in this relationship ? A prelim is no different then a marriage certificate IMHO.


Its completely different from a marriage certificate, and that's why you make a will, so that your children will inherit. We both have wills. 

Thankfully many older established men don't see things as you do and go on to have good second marriages with love and trust.


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## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> Maybe its an American thing, but here they seem to be rare even for those who like us are in their second marriage. I would rather not be married than have to resort to such a thing.


Also a perfectly acceptable thing if you choose not to be married. I understand the younger generation, for this and other reasons, are deciding to forgo it

I wouldn't be surprised if one day only the very religious still participate in this


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## Diana7

Wolf1974 said:


> Also a perfectly acceptable thing if you choose not to be married. I understand the younger generation, for this and other reasons, are deciding to forgo it
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if one day only the very religious still participate in this


I love being married, but only to the right man. 

I doubt that only the religious will participate. I know so many young couples who have married in the last few years, and we have another wedding soon for another young family member getting married. Most of my wider family aren't Christians BTW. 
I don't see marriage loosing its popularity here to any great extent, even if they live together for a few years first.Most will end up getting married at some point and the single ones I know want to get married.


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## Wolf1974

Diana7 said:


> I love being married, but only to the right man.
> 
> I doubt that only the religious will participate. I know so many young couples who have married in the last few years, and we have another wedding soon for another young family member getting married. Most of my wider family aren't Christians BTW.
> I don't see marriage loosing its popularity here to any great extent, even if they live together for a few years first.Most will end up getting married at some point and the single ones I know want to get married.


Guess we will see. Hope your right. Most of the young people I am around are all for cohabitation but not marriage. Time will tell if it’s an outdated practice or not.


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## Livvie

Diana7 said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diana you say that, yet your yourself had a failed marriage. You are divorced.
> 
> 
> 
> yes I am divorced after a previous 25 year marriage. As I said a few posts ago I married this time at 30 years older, much wiser, much more sure of the sort of man I wanted. Being divorced doesn't change the fact that I don't believe in pre-nups. Its just made me be far more careful and far more fussy this time as to who I married. If I couldn't have found a man who I trusted 100%, I wouldn't have got married.
> I also think it depends on what you value most in life. Money or family. Money or marriage. One very important aspect is that I trust God for my future no matter what happens, rather than some legal agreement that the courts here may or may not take any notice of anyway.
Click to expand...

What I'm saving is, obviously you COULDN'T trust 100% the first man you married... as you ended up divorced. This stuff does happen. It even happened to YOU.


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## Diana7

Livvie said:


> What I'm saving is, obviously you COULDN'T trust 100% the first man you married... as you ended up divorced. This stuff does happen. It even happened to YOU.


Yes it happened, but as I said I was 19 then, 30 years younger than when I met and married my second husband who is a very different man from my first. 
Makes no difference to the fact that for us prenups are part of planning for a divorce not planning for a marriage. They also go against the fact that for us all that we had before marriage is now ours, because marriage is about two becoming one.

I refuse to let fear rule my life.


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## Anastasia6

wxman3441 said:


> What benefits does marriage offer men that they couldn't get being unmarried?




I think the whole premise is wrong. Marriage is a commitment. While in theory you could do that without marriage, in reality it's few and far between. About 50% of marriages make it. I've never personally known a couple who just shack up to make it past 13 years. I'm happily married but of course life has its ups and downs. I've never questioned if my husband will be there because we are committed through marriage. It has a meaning beyond just I love you for both of us.

But to each his own. Men certainly are finding it easier to shack up without marriage but most women I know who are in these 7 year relationships start to resent their partner for not thinking they are good enough to marry. Some that resentment stays even after they get married because the marriage usually happens after the second child and they are stuck wondering if they are only married because they got pregnant again.

I'll never be faced with this issue but I'd never stick around for that kind of relationship. I tend to go all in. And if you are not in you are out. See ya next please.

So I'd say one of the benefits is keeping a woman you love, making her feel loved, and having the highest level of commitment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RandomDude

Never wanted marriage, now I do... if things continue at its current pace.

Reason -> I found someone I actually want to spend the rest of my life with. Sure I already enjoy all the perks of companionship and I am committed to my girlfriend but there's still one thing left, legal and social recognition as husband and wife. I always wondered why gays fought for such recognition, legally and socially. Now I understand.

The whole idea of marriage always hated it, can't believe I fell into it's trap but now it's just a natural step for our future. If you have doubts about it though, don't marry. Don't make my mistake. It's only worth it with the right person.


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## Wolf1974

RandomDude said:


> Never wanted marriage, now I do... if things continue at its current pace.
> 
> Reason -> I found someone I actually want to spend the rest of my life with. Sure I already enjoy all the perks of companionship and I am committed to my girlfriend but there's still one thing left, legal and social recognition as husband and wife. I always wondered why gays fought for such recognition, legally and socially. Now I understand.
> 
> The whole idea of marriage always hated it, can't believe I fell into it's trap but now it's just a natural step for our future. If you have doubts about it though, don't marry. Don't make my mistake. It's only worth it with the right person.


Agreed. Sometimes right person comes along and changes so much of your world view on things


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