# A question on Gifts.



## imtamnew

I got married in 2004. It was an arranged marriage and we had a rocky start that is still a little crazy to this day.

My wife was forced into marriage by her parents. 
I did not know this at that time. So we were more like friends than an actual couple for the first few years. I was in a lot of confusion because I had not signed up for this and I still carry resentment. Had IC last year and that helped me cope with my own feelings.

Despite getting back (IMHO) very little from my wife, I stuck around and I thought she fell in love with me. She assures me as such but given a very different of emotional and physical needs. I don't think she understands what she is talking about. She loves her husband who is a solid secure man. She does not really love me. I hope you are able to understand what I am saying.

We now have two kids.

While I am the sole breadwinner, my wife has a small independent source of income and also has my credit card. Something which has a good credit limit and I have never ever stopped her from spending on anything.

Yesterday while we were discussing about something the topic of gifts came up.If you were to open my wife's wardrobe they would find over 70% of the clothes in there were bought by me as surprise gifts. I get her everything from jewelry to even cosmetics and stuff. Not only do I buy her good stuff but she herself comments that she gets more compliments on the clothes I buy for her than the ones she buys herself.

Some 4 months after we got married, my wife bought some clothes for me. A couple of trousers and shirts.

At that time I did not take it well. Considering I was newly married to someone who clearly was not ready to be married to me, I took it as a very insulting move. That what I had was not good enough. I had told her clearly that this was bad and condescending on her part. One shirt or trouser would have been great. But attempting to change my wardrobe itself was not good. Having said that I still did accept the clothes and even used them.

She never got me another gift.

So yesterday when I told her that she has bought me nothing in over ten years. She reminded me of that 2004 incident.

What do I make of this?


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## thefam

She was trying in a marriage she wanted no part of. She got out of her comfort zone and tried to do something nice for you and you shot her down. Did you ever apologize?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## imtamnew

No, I did not apologize. And don't plan to apologize for something I did in 2004.


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## Satya

Then don't expect her to get over something you did to hurt her in 2004.


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## imtamnew

Well in that case I guess I should do what she does. 

With my connect to her at its all time lowest, I guess its all for the best.


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## Satya

There's a reason you say the connection is at its lowest. 

And my last post wasn't facetious on purpose. The open dialogue has to start somewhere and this is not about clothes. 

You rejected her attempt to care, she just did it in an incompatible way to the method you like to receive. 

Read the 5 Love languages, it's a start.

Eta: Resentment is a relationship killer. If you are truly incompatible then nothing will help, but if you are both willing to do some work, it may start to build the bond you currently lack.


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## imtamnew

Satya said:


> Read the 5 Love languages, it's a start.
> 
> Eta: Resentment is a relationship killer. If you are truly incompatible then nothing will help, but if you are both willing to do some work, it may start to build the bond you currently lack.


Me


> 9	Physical Touch
> 7	Quality Time
> 5	Acts of Service
> 5	Words of Affirmation
> 4	Receiving Gifts


Her


> 9	Words of Affirmation
> 8	Quality Time
> 7	Acts of Service
> 5	Physical Touch
> 1	Receiving Gifts



I started reading the book. She never bothered. I stopped.

You are right. Its something both have to work on. I was the one doing the heavy work. Now I have said, enough. You do it.


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## PhillyGuy13

Just curious as to how you didn't realize it was an arranged marriage.
Thefam and satya hit the nail on the head.

She wasn't in love with you, attempted to buy you some clothes, making considerable effort to connect with you, and you tore her efforts down. Right then and there she resigned herself to her lot in life- less partnership, more subservience. Why would she buy you another gift? Just to get scolded again?

Satya asked if you had read 5 Love Languages. You replied you started too, but she wasn't into it so you gave up. Keep reading.

As an aside, a good rule of thumb for husbands, always let your wife take care of your wardrobe. She knows what she is doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy

im_tam said:


> No, I did not apologize. And don't plan to apologize for something I did in 2004.


Why? Tell her what you told us. That you understand now that it was her trying to make a connection with you and that you're sorry that you didn't see that then. 

You'd be amazed at how much a honest apology and feeling like they understand the reason behind it can help to heal old wounds.


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## Mr. Nail

So she does not buy you gifts. This is because she does not know how. gifting is less important to her than to you but is is of little importance to you . Based on that analysis, there is little motivation for her to improve her gifting skills. Also you are wasting your time shopping for her when she wants better words.


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## imtamnew

I think I have just stopped caring. What I find surprising is the fact that she has held on to a grudge for over a decade.


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## imtamnew

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=244482

My older thread may help with context


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## pidge70

I'm trying to understand how you think your wife buying you clothes is insulting? Does she think it is insulting that you buy her clothes?


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## imtamnew

Back then it had felt that it was one more for her to tell me that I was not good enough for her.


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## soccermom2three

im_tam said:


> I think I have just stopped caring. What I find surprising is the fact that she has held on to a grudge for over a decade.



So have you. You just complained to her that she never bought you a gift. That's holding a grudge and resentment.


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## imtamnew

No she was talking about someone else not liking a gift given by her husband. One thing led to another and I realized ten years had passed.


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## soccermom2three

im_tam said:


> Back then it had felt that it was one more for her to tell me that I was not good enough for her.



And you were wrong so you should apologize. It doesn't matter how many years it's been, you should always apologize if you were wrong.


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## Satya

im_tam said:


> Back then it had felt that it was one more for her to tell me that I was not good enough for her.


If it felt that way to you, you should have had a heart-to-heart talk with her. Like I said earlier, you were interpreting her gift in one way in the receiving and she was interpreting her gift in another way in the giving. 

This is an example of many misunderstandings couples can have. As a woman, what I buy for another, particularly my SO, is never without a kind thought. I don't buy him things to send the message that he can't possibly take care of himself or he's incapable of buying his own things. In the case of clothing for instance, I know what my SO wears and likes, however I also know what he'd look good in, even if it's not something he currently prefers to wear. 

I'm just taking a stab here, but perhaps she bought you clothes thinking you would look attractive in them... so maybe it was a little bit selfish on her part. Maybe she thought seeing you in them would spark some attraction. These are just maybe's, I have no real idea. The only way you'd know for sure is to talk about it.


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## NextTimeAround

> Some 4 months after we got married, my wife bought some clothes for me. A couple of trousers and shirts.
> 
> At that time I did not take it well. Considering I was newly married to someone who clearly was not ready to be married to me, I took it as a very insulting move.


So you want to be Big Daddy in the relationship. There are a lot of western women who would love to take your money and just give you a smile and thanks.

What ethnicity are you? I am always amazed at these customs that are intended to control women but then have unwanted side effects.


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## imtamnew

I don't intend to apologise for something I did over a decade back. Frankly my confusion is how can someone hold on to something so petty for so long. 

Btw my ethnicity is Indian.


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## john117

As my Indian colleague said, the red dot (Bindi) indicates women are always recording what you say/do and can cue it up at will. 

In other words, expected...


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## soccermom2three

im_tam said:


> I don't intend to apologise for something I did over a decade back. Frankly my confusion is how can someone hold on to something so petty for so long.


Okay, keep on keeping on and see how things turn out.


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## BlueWoman

im_tam said:


> I don't intend to apologise for something I did over a decade back. Frankly my confusion is how can someone hold on to something so petty for so long.
> 
> Btw my ethnicity is Indian.


Well with that kind of attitude, I wouldn't want to try very hard either. You sound like a jerk and she's stuck with you, you are never happy, and don't apologize when you are wrong. 

You resent her for not being in the marriage when she was forced into it. 
You resent her for trying but it not being what you want.
You resent her for not being willing to stick her hand in the fire again after being burned 10 years ago. 


My guess is she resents you for being an arrogant, entitled a$$hole.


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## john117

Not so fast - it seems you're using Western standards to evaluate a non Western arrangement.

Western cultures tend to resolve grudges after a decade. Non Western, not as much. Likewise the "forced" part. Yea, I've seen 50+ Indian friends and one (ugly) divorce but 49 good marriages. Compromise will go a long way.


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## imtamnew

Bluewoman, you read one small chapter in my life and figured out so much about me.


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## BlueWoman

im_tam said:


> Bluewoman, you read one small chapter in my life and figured out so much about me.


Well I guessed that this would be your response. So, so far so good. 

Culture or not, feelings are feeling. The chapter you decided to show is the chapter that indicates you have little sympathy or empathy. 

If you think you are the good guy in this scenario, how bad does it have to get before you realize your the bad guy. 

But honestly, this what I also have figured out...You have had multiple posts in this thread that have suggested you try a different approach. You continue to reject them. What you really wanted was someone to say you are right and your wife is wrong. 

Nobody is telling you that, and instead of looking at the situation differently based on the feedback you have recieved. I figured out that you are going to ignore all the feedback, because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. 

Prove me wrong.


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## imtamnew

I have provided a link to an older thread, request you to please read that as well.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=244482

I am in tapatalk. So not able to link to the thread starting. Please read that fully.
Reading fully will be better than reading first post and berating me for domestic violence.


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## BlueWoman

Who's berating you for domestic violence? Was that even mentioned in this thread? I thought we were talking about dealing differently with your wife to get your emotional needs met. If there is domestic violence in your marriage...well that's a completely different issue. And much more important to deal with than gift giving.


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## imtamnew

Blue woman please read that thread.


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## BlueWoman

Okay, I can only make it through pages. So fine, you slapped her. If I were talking to her I would tell her to leave you. 
Actually, I would probably suggest that you leave her, if she can and does enrage you enough to bring you to hit her. 

But assuming that is a one time incident and you know better not to rise to the debate. 

My thoughts are still the same. You are like the petulant little boy who is taking his ball home because people aren't nice. 

Maybe there is no fix to your situation. I don't know. But I do that your current attitude is a definite non fix. And can only make things worse. 

I can tell you that a non entitled princess would not stand for your behavior, and would be very turned off by your refusal to apologize when you are wrong. 

If she is how you describe then you are not going to change her. No matter what you do. But if there is any kindness and compassion in her, this is not how to bring it out.


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## imtamnew

BlueWoman,

I got married in 2004. I was full of hope and expectation at the start of my marriage.
A week later my wife tells me that she was forced into this.

I did not go complaining to anyone. I took it and said she has a choice. Either stay and work with me or go.
She stayed.

I lived with a woman who was my wife but lived as a friend.

I was quite hurt with what was for me a huge betrayal. Not just from her but from life itself. But I took it kept up a life that looked and felt happy.

I started changing various parts of my life and she says she fell in love with me. Then she went and got me a full makeover for my wardrobe.

For me it hurt so bad. That I was being shown to be not good enough for her and if only I change my outer appearance she would be ok with me.

Now I think it was a foolish reaction. But I was in a hugely vulnerable state at that time.

But I stuck around with her.

We would occasionally try and get intimate. I would walk with extreme frustration as she would start it but once her orgasm is done, I would be left in the cold. It still hurts when I think about it.

In 2006 her doctor advised a medial procedure to snip her hymen. Even the doctor advised counselling for me. The counselor who had both sides of the story told me that the only way I can have a more sexually satisfying life for myself is to let go and walk away. My wife had or has too much baggage against enjoying sex. No child abuse or anything but just stigma.
It was also around this time that I got to know my wife has PCOS. It goes along with a general lack of sexual enjoyment. It also meant multiple visits to doctors. While I don't deny that she had to really undergo a lot of pain from those injections, I was there for her every single time.

Many times that would eat into my office time but I never complained. In fact many days I would rush back to office skipping lunch etc simply because I had no time.

My current counselor summed it up well when she said:
"Your wife does not know how to give, you dont know that you can ask."

I might appear as a very emotionally disconnected person. But I have cried so many nights that my heart has gone dry.


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## Kristisha

im_tam said:


> BlueWoman,
> 
> I got married in 2004. I was full of hope and expectation at the start of my marriage.
> A week later my wife tells me that she was forced into this.
> 
> I did not go complaining to anyone. I took it and said she has a choice. Either stay and work with me or go.
> She stayed.
> 
> I lived with a woman who was my wife but lived as a friend.
> 
> I was quite hurt with what was for me a huge betrayal. Not just from her but from life itself. But I took it kept up a life that looked and felt happy.
> 
> I started changing various parts of my life and she says she fell in love with me. Then she went and got me a full makeover for my wardrobe.
> 
> For me it hurt so bad. That I was being shown to be not good enough for her and if only I change my outer appearance she would be ok with me.
> 
> Now I think it was a foolish reaction. But I was in a hugely vulnerable state at that time.
> 
> But I stuck around with her.
> 
> We would occasionally try and get intimate. I would walk with extreme frustration as she would start it but once her orgasm is done, I would be left in the cold. It still hurts when I think about it.
> 
> In 2006 her doctor advised a medial procedure to snip her hymen. Even the doctor advised counselling for me. The counselor who had both sides of the story told me that the only way I can have a more sexually satisfying life for myself is to let go and walk away. My wife had or has too much baggage against enjoying sex. No child abuse or anything but just stigma.
> It was also around this time that I got to know my wife has PCOS. It goes along with a general lack of sexual enjoyment. It also meant multiple visits to doctors. While I don't deny that she had to really[/B] undergo a lot of pain from those injections, I was there for her every single time.
> 
> Many times that would eat into my office time but I never complained. In fact many days I would rush back to office skipping lunch etc simply because I had no time.
> 
> My current counselor summed it up well when she said:
> "Your wife does not know how to give, you dont know that you can ask."
> 
> I might appear as a very emotionally disconnected person. But I have cried so many nights that my heart has gone dry.


 I'm so sorry for you situation , but in my opinion you Know how to ask but she doesn't want to give you anything .
She is resentful because she was forced to marry you, and because she doesn't want to have any intimacy with you or when she want to have is only on her terms.

So I believe she is very selfish and narcissist. She is disconnected of you....


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## john117

Forced? I think the way the system works is hardly "forced" on anyone...


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## Kristisha

john117 said:


> Forced? I think the way the system works is hardly "forced" on anyone...


 Spot on!


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## imtamnew

john117 said:


> Forced? I think the way the system works is hardly "forced" on anyone...


I agree.

She stayed. She Stayed.

There is no way either one of us can force each other.

In fact we are both to blame for this situation. I wish I had had this clarity of thought before. But by the time the fog lifted from my head a decade had passed and two kids came in.

Now I have no hopes for change in her attitude. But the way I look at it, I owe her nothing just as she owes me nothing.

I will find ways to make myself happy. Its funny that a guy like me who has never even cheated on my taxes, is now open to any woman who is willing to be with me.

The greatest loss for me in this marriage has been my moral compass. But I frankly don't care anymore.


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## Kristisha

I think it's time to take care of yourself and dedicate time for your hobbies and even you should ask for a divorce because you have the right to be happy with somebody else


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## arbitrator

im_tam said:


> BlueWoman,
> 
> I got married in 2004. I was full of hope and expectation at the start of my marriage.
> A week later my wife tells me that she was forced into this.
> 
> I did not go complaining to anyone. I took it and said she has a choice. Either stay and work with me or go.
> She stayed.
> 
> I lived with a woman who was my wife but lived as a friend.
> 
> I was quite hurt with what was for me a huge betrayal. Not just from her but from life itself. But I took it kept up a life that looked and felt happy.
> 
> I started changing various parts of my life and she says she fell in love with me. Then she went and got me a full makeover for my wardrobe.
> 
> For me it hurt so bad. That I was being shown to be not good enough for her and if only I change my outer appearance she would be ok with me.
> 
> Now I think it was a foolish reaction. But I was in a hugely vulnerable state at that time.
> 
> But I stuck around with her.
> 
> We would occasionally try and get intimate. I would walk with extreme frustration as she would start it but once her orgasm is done, I would be left in the cold. It still hurts when I think about it.
> 
> In 2006 her doctor advised a medial procedure to snip her hymen. Even the doctor advised counselling for me. The counselor who had both sides of the story told me that the only way I can have a more sexually satisfying life for myself is to let go and walk away. My wife had or has too much baggage against enjoying sex. No child abuse or anything but just stigma.
> It was also around this time that I got to know my wife has PCOS. It goes along with a general lack of sexual enjoyment. It also meant multiple visits to doctors. While I don't deny that she had to really undergo a lot of pain from those injections, I was there for her every single time.
> 
> Many times that would eat into my office time but I never complained. In fact many days I would rush back to office skipping lunch etc simply because I had no time.
> 
> My current counselor summed it up well when she said:
> "Your wife does not know how to give, you dont know that you can ask."
> 
> I might appear as a very emotionally disconnected person. But I have cried so many nights that my heart has gone dry.


* im_tam: You are not abnormal, but perfectly and masculinely human!

You W's treatment and disrespect of you at your marriage should have been nothing more than sheer fodder for an annulment ~ but now that the marriage has run well beyond the statute of limitations, it greatly appears that a D is preemptively your only way out!

Get the D and give her "the gift" of letting her be miserable all by herself! You deserve far better!*


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## john117

To us westerners the system is indeed strange but as I said in 30 years Indian matchmakers for my friends are batting 49 and 1... And the 1 is a very good friend that makes J2 look like my kitten. Good looker too...

One of my guys is Indian and went to India got married etc. His wife works at our place too. I was blown away by the chemistry these two have built up in a year. But it's easy to build chemistry when you have two salaries flowing and not a care in the world. His parents stayed with them for six months. How many newlywed westerner TAM folk could park their parents like that? 

It took me decades to understand Indian culture to this level - but it's a great culture and worth the effort. A good 1/3 of my Facebook friends are Indian ... 

The couple is now in India for a wedding and we are eagerly awaiting the sweets they bring on the way back. That and a bottle or two of Old Monk...


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## Blondilocks

"Yesterday while we were discussing about something the topic of gifts came up.If you were to open my wife's wardrobe they would find over 70% of the clothes in there were bought by me as surprise gifts. I get her everything from jewelry to even cosmetics and stuff. Not only do I buy her good stuff but she herself comments that she gets more compliments on the clothes I buy for her than the ones she buys herself."

Receiving gifts is the least of her love languages. What's up with the above? Try concentrating on her #1 - Words of Affirmation. This is the way to her heart if you're still interested.

There is no statute of limitations on apologies. Your attitude on this and your dismissal of her love language indicate that your pride is getting in your way of successful communication.


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## imtamnew

@Blondilocks: I should maybe apologize and hope things better. But I can't find it in my heart to do it.


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## Blondilocks

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your wife's self-esteem seems to be centered around her beauty. You have stated you do not find beauty to be an admirable (?) quality. Is it fair to say that you do not praise her for her beauty? If not, and words of affirmation are her love language, then by denying this praise she feels that you do not find her attractive and possibly don't care about her and hence the reason you do not orgasm as quickly as she. 

Whew, that was a long way of saying that neither of you are meeting each other's needs and neither wants to, apparently. Personally, I'd lose the condom for more sensation.

Talk with her (not to her).


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## imtamnew

I will think about your post. Thanks


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## john117

Praising wifey for her self important beauty may result in her taking it as an effort to get into her pants . 

NotNormalPeople (tm) tidbit. If I praise her looks it's wasted on her but if a colleague makes a complement she croons about it for days...


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## imtamnew

So I tried a small experiment today.

She had to visit her parents house which is like 45 mins of heavy traffic away. She would have to use a cab as she does not drive. The kids would have to accompany her.
She would have to return after 10 PM.

My kids are used to sleeping early and I was sure my daughter will go super cranky.

SO I went to my office in the morning. Thats about 30 mins away. Then returned home at 4PM and picked her up. Spent time at her parents house till 10 and drove them back. BTW I also have a lot of office calls piled up which will go one for at least another 4 hours from now.

While at it, I would like to remind you that my city is currently under a heavy summer heat wave and temperatures are over 110+ Fahrenheit.

So while sitting at her parents house I asked her to get me some water. I was closer to the refrigerator by maybe 2 feet compared to her.

She told me to get it myself as I am closer.


My wife is imho an entitled princess. She is also blind if she does not realize that I am so disconnected with her that I did not even bother to respond.


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## Blondilocks

Why wouldn't she feel like an entitled princess when you just treated her like one? You didn't have to take off of work & chauffeur her around. Is their a reason she doesn't drive?


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## imtamnew

Blondilocks said:


> Why wouldn't she feel like an entitled princess when you just treated her like one? You didn't have to take off of work & chauffeur her around. Is their a reason she doesn't drive?


Indian traffic is a nightmare. 
She has a driving license but even I find it difficult to drive with the kids.

If my kids were not along she would have easily taken a cab. The kids despite being strapped inside a child seat can be a handful. 

I don't mind treating her well. She does have a lot of tough time with a very demanding set of kids.

But I know the only way to change her is to be rude and more aggressive. But I find it very difficult to behave like that.


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## imtamnew

So I pay her no compliments. I still do a lot of stuff for her but if she messes up, I tell her clearly that it was not nice and I don't appreciate it.

If she is even a little rude, I tell her very clearly I did not like it.

and what happens.

I get sex which she initiates. At least once a week.
She initiated on Saturday, my kid woke up so she went to take care of him.
So she again initiates on Sunday and we do it.

I give up. Treat a woman like a queen, be dry.
Treat her like you don't give a damn. Get lucky.


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## Satya

No, you don't just treat her badly, what you did was assert your boundaries, stating that you will not tolerate disrespect, then you follow through. Many women see it as an attractive sign of strength. If you stand up to them, you'll likely stand up FOR them.


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## Satya

But she is also deserving of respect, so putting her down repeatedly will cause this to backfire. It's not a one-way street, ok?


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## manfromlamancha

OK all I can say without revealing too much about myself is I have an above average understanding of the IndoPak subcontinent and its ways, so I am going to offer my tuppence worth of observations:


It is hard enough for any bride to come into an arranged marriage and it is up to the groom to make her feel safe, loved and above all, respected. I do not believe that you have done this - as many Indian males in the past have failed to do.


Let me say that there are many women who would take offence at you picking out their clothes and then being arrogant enough to say that others appreciate your taste in women's clothes more than hers (trust me I speak from personal experience - I made these very same mistakes as a younger man but have learnt much from this).


You come across as a bully and controlling - I completely understand where your wife is coming from in not buying you anything more.


You normally should apologise when you realise you have done something wrong. Your problem is still that you do not see the wrong you have done - it has nothing to do with how long ago this took place.


And I am baffled that you married someone you did not court originally yourself and who did not really know you, and did not know that this might be arranged. Did your parents not go through the usual ritual of meeting the other parents, introducing you and the usual sweetening of the mouth etc ?


And were you a virgin before you met your wife ? Probably not- but your wife was! So you need to understand two things - she is missing out on what much of the west will describe as a young life to figure out who she is and what she likes (she has accepted this but will always wonder and this applies to sex too) - AND - she was coping with her own inexperience and demons when it came to sleeping with you (and you need to show empathy and compassion).

Bottom line is she has given up much to marry you - now you need to show that this was not in vain if you plan on spending your life with her.

So my real question to you is - do you really love her ? If so, why ? And if it is a good reason and valid, then tell her.

Next you need to find out if she really loves you after all this. Don't bother with the languages of love etc for now as you are well beyond that at this moment. Be prepared to offer he a safe environment whatever she says and (as our good friend JLD would say) actively listen to what she says. There will be clues as to what you need to do (remember the humility part here).

Go and apologise to your wife even if you do not love her - its the right thing to do and will make you a better person. 

Next, I would strongly advise that you practice some humility when it comes to your wife - treat her as you would want to be treated (not a possession, employee or colleague).

I wish you luck so go make your wife (and in so doing, your self) happy!


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## imtamnew

manfromlamancha said:


> OK all I can say without revealing too much about myself is I have an above average understanding of the IndoPak subcontinent and its ways, so I am going to offer my tuppence worth of observations:


Thanks.



> It is hard enough for any bride to come into an arranged marriage and it is up to the groom to make her feel safe, loved and above all, respected. I do not believe that you have done this - as many Indian males in the past have failed to do.
> 
> 
> Let me say that there are many women who would take offence at you picking out their clothes and then being arrogant enough to say that others appreciate your taste in women's clothes more than hers (trust me I speak from personal experience - I made these very same mistakes as a younger man but have learnt much from this).


I don't pick out all her clothes. I do however buy her a lot of clothes. I love buying clothes for me. She actively seeks my inputs when buying clothes.
I go to a mall for anything. I see something that catches my eye. I buy it for her.
It usually happens that the clothes I buy tend to match her very well. In both size and texture and color.

It is she who says that the compliments she gets when wearing clothes I bought are way more than the one's she has bought on her own.




> You come across as a bully and controlling - I completely understand where your wife is coming from in not buying you anything more.


Ok.




> You normally should apologise when you realise you have done something wrong. Your problem is still that you do not see the wrong you have done - it has nothing to do with how long ago this took place.


An apology unless it means something has no value. My wife is not a fool.



> And I am baffled that you married someone you did not court originally yourself and who did not really know you, and did not know that this might be arranged. Did your parents not go through the usual ritual of meeting the other parents, introducing you and the usual sweetening of the mouth etc ?


Yes. A proper arranged marriage but no engagement ceremony per say as we don't follow that tradition.
We got Engaged in January and married a couple of months later.
We started speaking to each other on the phone a few weeks before marriage.
Her sisters had told me that she is always busy and rarely likes to talk on the phone. I hence did not call up often and nor did I try to talk a lot.




> And were you a virgin before you met your wife ? Probably not- but your wife was! So you need to understand two things - she is missing out on what much of the west will describe as a young life to figure out who she is and what she likes (she has accepted this but will always wonder and this applies to sex too) - AND - she was coping with her own inexperience and demons when it came to sleeping with you (and you need to show empathy and compassion).


Both virgins. I never pursued girls because I had a lot more interests than pre-marital sex and my views then were that its wrong.




> Bottom line is she has given up much to marry you - now you need to show that this was not in vain if you plan on spending your life with her.
> 
> So my real question to you is - do you really love her ? If so, why ? And if it is a good reason and valid, then tell her.
> 
> Next you need to find out if she really loves you after all this. Don't bother with the languages of love etc for now as you are well beyond that at this moment. Be prepared to offer he a safe environment whatever she says and (as our good friend JLD would say) actively listen to what she says. There will be clues as to what you need to do (remember the humility part here).
> 
> Go and apologise to your wife even if you do not love her - its the right thing to do and will make you a better person.
> 
> Next, I would strongly advise that you practice some humility when it comes to your wife - treat her as you would want to be treated (not a possession, employee or colleague).
> 
> I wish you luck so go make your wife (and in so doing, your self) happy!


I care a lot for her.
But love is something I had felt very deeply and passionately for her.
Where the hell its gone and hidden, I have no clue.


----------



## EleGirl

john117 said:


> Forced? I think the way the system works is hardly "forced" on anyone...


I'm pretty familiar with arranged marriages as I've lived in places where they are the norm and there are arranged marriages in my family.

The system appears to work because the couples stay together for life. Mostly the ones who are unhappy are resigned to their fate and put on a good front. There are many unhappy marriages behind those facades.

In these cultures, people in unhappy/bad marriages do not leave and divorce because they cannot. The stigma against it is so high that they dare not. 


.


----------



## imtamnew

EleGirl said:


> I'm pretty familiar with arranged marriages as I've lived in places where they are the norm and there are arranged marriages in my family.
> 
> The system appears to work because the couples stay together for life. Mostly the ones who are unhappy are resigned to their fate and put on a good front. There are many unhappy marriages behind those facades.
> 
> In these cultures, people in unhappy/bad marriages do not leave and divorce because they cannot. The stigma against it is so high that they dare not.
> 
> 
> .



Not quite the case where I live.

My family has a lot of inter religious marriage with one cousin abandoning Islam and getting married for love. He does have a really cute kid and is very much a part of the extended family.
My wife's family (first cousins) has a couple of divorces and remarriages.


----------



## EleGirl

im_tam said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I don't pick out all her clothes. I do however buy her a lot of clothes. I love buying clothes for me. She actively seeks my inputs when buying clothes.
> 
> I go to a mall for anything. I see something that catches my eye. I buy it for her.
> 
> It usually happens that the clothes I buy tend to match her very well. In both size and texture and color.
> 
> It is she who says that the compliments she gets when wearing clothes I bought are way more than the one's she has bought on her own.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> An apology unless it means something has no value. My wife is not a fool.
> 
> Yes. A proper arranged marriage but no engagement ceremony per say as we don't follow that tradition.
> 
> We got Engaged in January and married a couple of months later.
> We started speaking to each other on the phone a few weeks before marriage.
> 
> Her sisters had told me that she is always busy and rarely likes to talk on the phone. I hence did not call up often and nor did I try to talk a lot.
> 
> Both virgins. I never pursued girls because I had a lot more interests than pre-marital sex and my views then were that its wrong.
> 
> I care a lot for her.
> 
> But love is something I had felt very deeply and passionately for her.
> 
> Where the hell its gone and hidden, I have no clue.


I say this as kindly as is possible... you are bull headed and that is a huge part of the problem.

manfromlamancha gave you excellent input and you rejected most, if not all of it outright.

"An apology unless it means something has no value. My wife is not a fool."

That's right. Your stating this proves manfromlamancha's point. You still do not realize, or even allow yourself to contemplate, that you were wrong. Not just about her buying clothing but bout anything else.

I find it interesting that you were so offended when your wife bought you some clothing as a gift. But you buy her clothes all the time. You perceive that her message to you in her buying you clothing was a never message. I postulate that you think this because it's transference. Your buying her clothing is not as sweet an act as it appears on the surface. You do it because you think that your tastes are superior to hers and so you buy her clothing to make this point over and over. The gifts of clothing are not about your love for her as much as they are about your love for your own superiority demonstrated by your better taste in clothing.

For me, nothing else explains why you would interpret your loving act of buying clothing as an insult.

I think that you are mostly a good man. But I also think that you are all tied up in being right, being superior when it comes to your relationship with your wife.

I think that your wife is also a good woman and not as selfish as you portray her. She's a lost as you are. Believe me, in her head, she is as right as you think you are. She is as much of a victim as you see yourself as being.

There are always three sides to every story: His side, her side and the truth. 

This would drive away any 99% of women. If you would back off this, look into yourself, find your own problems and fix your own problems I think you would be in a much better place. And I think that you would find your wife's attitude completely changes.

You are your wife are caught in an act/react loop. One of you acted a long time a go and since then you have both been reactive to each other. In order to stop this loop, only one of you has to stop it. 

A reactive behavioral loop cannot continue if one person stops reacting. Change how you behave and interact with your wife and she will be forced to change. You cannot control how she changes but she will. At first she might be upset even at good changes because it will feel uncomfortable to her. But in time she stop being upset and a new behavioral pattern will be in place.. hopefully not a reactive one.

One spouse can unilaterally change the relationship. the trick is to do it by that spouse fixing themself. Since no one can change another person, you might was well concentrate on the one person you can change.. yourself.

Not one of us is perfect. Working on ourselves, instead of trying to change our spouse and/or demand things from them, is the major key to fixing a marriage. Few people will even allow themselves to contemplate this much less do it.

You might feel that it's unfair that you have to change. After all she's contributed greatly to the bad state of your marriage.

But you see, you are the one who is here talking to us. You are the one who is seeking help.You are the only one we can talk to. So you are the one we are going to talk to about what changes YOU can make that will change your marriage in a positive way.

It's not that you are the bad buy. It's that one of you has to get off the marry-go-round (reactive loop) to change your marriage.


----------



## EleGirl

im_tam said:


> Not quite the case where I live.
> 
> My family has a lot of inter religious marriage with one cousin abandoning Islam and getting married for love. He does have a really cute kid and is very much a part of the extended family.
> 
> My wife's family (first cousins) has a couple of divorces and remarriages.


Does your wife work outside the home? Does she earn enough money to support herself and the children? Does she personally own any house/land?

Or is she completely dependent on you financially?


----------



## imtamnew

EleGirl said:


> Does your wife work outside the home? Does she earn enough money to support herself and the children? Does she personally own any house/land?
> 
> Or is she completely dependent on you financially?


In terms of property.
The current apartment we live in was purchased using her inheritance and my savings.
Together that amount came to about 20% of the cost.
I have another 10 years of the mortgage left and its paid from my salary.
We are equal owners of this apartment.

She also got another inheritance which has her own a apartment in the city.
And one more we recently bought outright.
That has 80% of her money and 20% of mine.
This apartment is in her name.

So she owns property worth quite a bit in her name.
The rental incomes are handled by me and go into her account.
They went down to zero now because they were part of the money used to pay for the two apartments we bought.

Indian marriages involve a decent amount of gold. All of this is in a bank locker that has only her listed in the ownership.

She has access to all my bank usernames and passwords.
Her accounts are not internet enabled and only she can control them. I do however balance the books for her.

She has my credit card with her all the time. A card she uses to buy gifts for other family members. 

In fact even the car we own is in her name. I pay the emi's. 

She did not ask for her name to be on any of these. I did. I insisted.

Does someone who gives his wife so much financial independence sound like a controlling guy to you?


----------



## EleGirl

im_tam said:


> In terms of property.
> 
> The current apartment we live in was purchased using her inheritance and my savings.
> 
> Together that amount came to about 20% of the cost.
> 
> I have another 10 years of the mortgage left and its paid from my salary.
> 
> We are equal owners of this apartment.
> 
> She also got another inheritance which has her own a apartment in the city.
> 
> And one more we recently bought outright.
> 
> That has 80% of her money and 20% of mine.
> 
> This apartment is in her name.
> 
> So she owns property worth quite a bit in her name.
> 
> The rental incomes are handled by me and go into her account. They went down to zero now because they were part of the money used to pay for the two apartments we bought.
> 
> Indian marriages involve a decent amount of gold. All of this is in a bank locker that has only her listed in the ownership.
> 
> She has access to all my bank usernames and passwords.
> Her accounts are not internet enabled and only she can control them. I do however balance the books for her.
> 
> She has my credit card with her all the time. A card she uses to buy gifts for other family members.
> 
> In fact even the car we own is in her name. I pay the emi's.
> 
> She did not ask for her name to be on any of these. I did. I insisted.


Thanks for answering the question. It helps to round out the picture. I was curious as to whether or not she might be staying mostly for financial reasons.

Most of the people reading here are from the USA and other western cultures. So they will interpret what you wrote through the filter of our laws… things like martial property that exist here. So it is important to have some insight into what the laws are in other cultures and countries. The idea that there not one law for all people and that each religious group has their own laws is very foreign to most in the West. It makes a difference when looking at what you wrote. So I’m going to go into that a bit here.

In India and in Islam a woman has the right to hold things as sole property: her inheritance, any income from any source, and any property she owns. Her husband has no legal right to these things. Also under Islam, the husband is required to take care of his wife's and his children's normal living expenses. But not her extras.. like if she wants to take a trip she might have to pay for that out of her own money. 

Under Islam there is a bride gift which the husband is required to give his bride. For the Muslims I know of, about $40,000 is about the norm for a bride gift. Of course in rich families this can be a lot higher and in poor families a lot lower. Some ‘modern’ Muslims are calling the engagement ring the bride gift. (or so they have told me) It’s meant to give her some financial independence and for her to take care of herself if her husband dies or he divorces her for no fault of hers. (I do not see the mention of a bride gift in your post. Perhaps the 50% ownership of the apartment was the bride gift? Just thinking aloud.)

The gold and other property given to a women by her family in India is her dowry. It’s her sole property. Under Islam it’s also her sole property. (Some groups in India have perverted this due to British influence so the dowry is paid to the groom and is family. I think it’s mostly Hindus who do this. It’s illegal no to pay money to the groom and his family, but it goes on behind closed doors… completely different topic.)

There is no such thing as marital property which is common in the West now. Each spouse holds their property as sole property. 

Inheritance is also very different from what it is here in the west.


 When a permanent wife dies and she does not leave any children, her husband inherits half of the property and the others (her parents and relatives) inherit the remaining (half). When she has children from that husband or from another husband, the husband inherits a quarter of the property and the remainder is for the remaining heirs.
 When the husband dies and he does not leave any children, his permanent wife will inherit a quarter of the property and the remainder is for the remaining heirs. When he has children from this wife or from another wife, his wife will inherit an eighth of the property and the remainder is for the remaining heirs. (If there is more than one permanent wife, they will all share the 1/8 equally).
 The wife inherits from all of the transferable property of her husband, she does not inherit from land or its value, whether it be a house or a garden or agricultural land or whatever is similar to that. Likewise, she does not inherit from real estate itself, like a building or trees. It is obligatory to appraise the real estate or trees, then, give her from its value.
 Decorative clothing, jewelry and whatever is similar to that from what (the deceased has) acquired. The man, it is for his wife and she for her husband. It is not considered as part of the estate, except when it is established that he had not intended for her to take possession of it, rather, she was wearing it in a manner like borrowing.

In divorce a wife in entitled to alimony only during the period of iddah, three months after a divorce and four months and ten days after the death of a spouse. Iddah is calculated on the number of menses that a woman has. During that time a woman cannot remarry or be in a relationship with another man. The idea is so that if she is pregnant, they know who the father is.

In India, the courts have allowed for Muslim women with little income and a lot less in assets than their husbands to get alimony for a longer period of time it's still not across the board. There have also been cases in which women have been ordered to pay their husbands alimony because the wife had more assets and income and the husband’s income/assets were not enough to cover his needs.. like high medical bills.


It sounds like she does not work outside the home so she might have cash flow issues in the long run were she to divorce.

You don’t list any other assets, investments, etc that are your sole property.



im_tam said:


> She did not ask for her name to be on any of these. I did. I insisted.
> 
> Does someone who gives his wife so much financial independence sound like a controlling guy to you?


Since most of what you listed as her assets (her inheritance used as down payment on your apartment, an apartment that she inherited, an apartment paid mostly from her rental income, her dowry (the gold in the bank locker)… all were from her family and in her name to start with.

You say that she downs 50% of the apartment you all live in. She put down part of the down payment from her inheritance. Was it generous of you to ‘give’ her 50% ownership of a property that she sunk her inheritance into? What would her inheritance look like today and in 20-30 years if she had instead invested it wisely? It would probably have grown to be about the same as 50% ownership in your apartment. She has forfeited the interest and equity income by putting her inheritance into the apartment. When you pass away (if you do before her) she will get 1/8 of the value of your 50%... or 1/16th the value of that apartment. So the fact that you pay the mortgage.. in the end 50% of what you are paying in mortgage are assets you are building up for your parents, your children and your extended family .. not your wife. The way different cultures handle things like family law, divorce and inheritance can make things look different.

If she did not ask that they be put in her name only, then yes it was very good of you to not be a greedy man and grab control of her sole assets that are rightly hers.

It is also good that you take your obligation to support your wife and children seriously and allow her access to a credit card so that she can have some spending money.

But the bottom line is that you do not give your wife financial independence. She has it by law. For the most part, her assets come from her family. 

You say that where you live it would not be much of a social stigma were she to divorce. Ok.. I’ll take you at your word. You are the first person from India that I have heard this from. Most talk about how the stigma is so great that they would be ostracized form society and family. 

It’s not clear from what you have written if your wife can survive long financially on her own were she to divorce you. Assets tend to dwindle quickly when that’s all a person has to live on.


----------



## imtamnew

I would like to add that she is a qualified engineer and was working. When treatment for pcos got intensive we decided that she can quit as it was very draining on her emotionally and physically. 

I would have gladly given her full ownership of the house we live in but for the purpose of tax saving. 

So all together assets wise she owns two and half apartments. I own half. 

All these are in the same price range. 


One apartment is fully her inheritance. 
One apartment which is in her name was bought with 80% of her inheritance and rental savings. I put in the remaining 20%.
One apartment which we own together had 10% her rental saved income, 10%my savings and the rest a bank mortgage which I pay in full. 

She divorces me then the rental income from the two apartments and the fact that I will move out instead of her and also provide full child support means that she will have no issues with money. 

There is also the matter of my life insurance which lists her as my sole beneficery and it is quite substantial.. 

Why do I do this? 

My grand dad died young and my grand mother suffered a lot because of no safety net. 

................ 

I honestly don't care about money.. 

I am however a bull headed guy and want love and acceptance in terms I decide on. 

I am seriously thinking on the cycle of stupidity that I am stuck in. 

Well that explains why I am answering this at 220 am.


The gold I mentioned about includes what my family gave. It's almost equal to what she received from her family. I stake no claim on that either. It was given to the bride, it remains with her.


----------



## EleGirl

im_tam said:


> I would like to add that she is a qualified engineer and was working. When treatment for pcos got intensive we decided that she can quit as it was very draining on her emotionally and physically.
> 
> I would have gladly given her full ownership of the house we live in but for the purpose of tax saving.
> 
> So all together assets wise she owns two and half apartments. I own half.
> 
> All these are in the same price range.
> 
> 
> One apartment is fully her inheritance.
> One apartment which is in her name was bought with 80% of her inheritance and rental savings. I put in the remaining 20%.
> One apartment which we own together had 10% her rental saved income, 10%my savings and the rest a bank mortgage which I pay in full.
> 
> She divorces me then the rental income from the two apartments and the fact that I will move out instead of her and also provide full child support means that she will have no issues with money.
> 
> There is also the matter of my life insurance which lists her as my sole beneficery and it is quite substantial..
> 
> Why do I do this?
> 
> My grand dad died young and my grand mother suffered a lot because of no safety net.
> 
> ................
> 
> I honestly don't care about money..
> 
> I am however a bull headed guy and want love and acceptance in terms I decide on.
> 
> I am seriously thinking on the cycle of stupidity that I am stuck in.
> 
> Well that explains why I am answering this at 220 am.
> 
> 
> The gold I mentioned about includes what my family gave. It's almost equal to what she received from her family. I stake no claim on that either. It was given to the bride, it remains with her.


Well with all that info, I think you can be sure that she is not staying with you just for money and security. That's a good thing. It was what I was trying to figure out.

It sounds like she's with you because she wants to be.

So it's just figuring out the puzzle. And I know that is frustrating.


----------



## imtamnew

This conversation I had earlier today may help.

A cousin got engaged and she is getting married very soon. She is about 21 years old and has a Bachelors degree in arts. Her groom is about 28 years old. Its an arranged marriage.
She recently shared the pictures of her engagement.

My wife's reaction was (IMO) condescending. A very negative view that getting married at 21 is a BAD thing. Now this girl is very happy she is getting married. Do I think she is too young. YES.
But would anyone say that going to a funeral would be better than to such an underage girls wedding. Which is what my wife said.

The other day a kid I know attained puberty. This kid is about 12 years old. My wife has a similar reaction. That the kid did not deserve it now. That it should happen later. All this with incredible pride that she and her sisters had attained puberty when they were around 16.
I no longer have any wtf moments. I don't argue as there is no point.

But since I did not want to create a separate thread and all...Just wanted to say..I deal with a woman who curses the normal biology of being a woman.
Who considers marriage as one of the worst things that can be done.

Elegirl. I am sure the reason my wife will not leave is not her financial dependence. But rather the fact that no one else will put up with her (imo ABSURD) opinions on this.


----------



## imtamnew

no advice for me.


----------



## john117

You're dealing with someone in a woman's body that does not know how to be a woman. Maybe in her native culture there's enough leeway built in but not in a western culture so it appears a bit odd.

If she's open to counseling then find a therapist - preferably an Indian one - and see how you can work western reality into Indian reality and vice versa.


----------



## imtamnew

Sometime in May, we started to have sex. Well not exactly coitus but messing around. While in the midst of doing the foreplay, she had an orgasm. 

This orgasm was somehow of a standard lower than what she wanted or had planned to achieve for that night. She got pissed and went away leaving me as I was. 

Since then father's day cane and went. My birthday cane and went. But she has been busy with life and I have long forgotten about interrupting it with my needs. 

I would rather climb down my moral high horse and have an affair than try to be intimate with my wife. 

Sorry if the post is insulting or whatever but I needed to get this out of my head.


----------



## imtamnew

I am at a crossroad in my relationship.

While I am good friends with the mother of my children, I have lost any feelings of love or intimacy for her.

We had a chat the other day when she lay down on my leg while watching TV and asked why I don't try and be intimate with her.
I told her that I am tired of the way we manage intimacy and I am happier with it completely off the table. Its simpler and I don't have to waste my time on hope.

She asked me if I would sleep with someone else. I said its a stupid question which I cannot answer.
She asked me if I love her. I told her that the only way we can salvage our relationship is with counselling. She refuses to do that. She will not confront our issues and would rather rug sweep them.

I am in a rather vulnerable position. I don't know if I end up developing feelings for someone else, what I will do.


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> She asked me if I would sleep with someone else. I said its a stupid question which I cannot answer.


Dude. 

I don't find this to be a stupid question. You completely deflected and in not so many words called her stupid.

You simply did not want to answer truthfully. Why not?

The truth is "I don't think I love you any more, I don't want to have sex with you and I am thinking seriously about sharing that part of me with someone else." 

Be a man about it. Give it to her straight and see what she does with it.


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> I would rather climb down my moral high horse and have an affair than try to be intimate with my wife.


Having an affair is not 'climbing down your moral high horse.' In fact, it's digging a hole in the ground so you can muck around in the septic tank.

If you're unhappy, at least show some integrity and LEAVE your wife, and THEN find another woman.

But guess what? Until you fix YOUR problems, you're just going to end up picking the same type of woman over and over. How many women are you going to leave until you discover it was YOU who needed to learn and grow all along?


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> I told her that I am tired of the way we manage intimacy and I am happier with it completely off the table. Its simpler and I don't have to waste my time on hope.


Good that you did that.



im_tam said:


> She asked me if I would sleep with someone else. I said its a stupid question which I cannot answer.


Bad that you did that, and exactly my point.

She ASKED you how to fix the marriage. You had a chance to say 'you are not meeting my needs and you're treating me like garbage, so yes, I probably WOULD end up sleeping with someone else. Hopefully, we'll have divorced first, but I can't promise anything at this point, I'm so unhappy.'


----------



## imtamnew

Tron said:


> Dude.
> 
> I don't find this to be a stupid question. You completely deflected and in not so many words called her stupid.
> You simply did not want to answer truthfully. Why not?
> The truth is "I don't think I love you any more, I don't want to have sex with you and I am thinking seriously about sharing that part of me with someone else."
> Be a man about it. Give it to her straight and see what she does with it.


She has asked me enough times if I want to sleep with someone else. I look at a car a woman is getting down from because I love cars. My wife would want to know if I was thinking of sleeping with that woman.

So forgive me for calling it a stupid question, but this is a question which imho has no correct or wrong answer.
I look at a woman does my body scream it wants to do a lot of things to her. YES.
Do I go ahead and do it....I have not done it in the past. I cannot answer for the future. No one honestly can.



turnera said:


> Having an affair is not 'climbing down your moral high horse.' In fact, it's digging a hole in the ground so you can muck around in the septic tank.
> 
> If you're unhappy, at least show some integrity and LEAVE your wife, and THEN find another woman.
> But guess what? Until you fix YOUR problems, you're just going to end up picking the same type of woman over and over. How many women are you going to leave until you discover it was YOU who needed to learn and grow all along?


As cliched as it sounds, KIDS. I have two wonderful kids and as important as sex is, I am not able to bring it to the level where I break up everything.
Now its only one person who is sad and dejected.

Also to clarify. While I have taken intimacy off the table, I doubt if there as many husbands as I who despite having a full time job, go way more than necessary to make the wife's life easy.





turnera said:


> Good that you did that.
> 
> Bad that you did that, and exactly my point.
> 
> She ASKED you how to fix the marriage. You had a chance to say 'you are not meeting my needs and you're treating me like garbage, so yes, I probably WOULD end up sleeping with someone else. Hopefully, we'll have divorced first, but I can't promise anything at this point, I'm so unhappy.'


I don't believe in empty threats.
Maybe I should find someone. Get everything set up. Then call my wife and tell her...Lady this is what I am going to do because of my messed up mind.
Just kidding. I won't call her. No I am just joking.
I never thought losing my mind would be so much fun.


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> She has asked me enough times if I want to sleep with someone else.


Barring a medical issue, women who do that are telling their men that they no longer see them as sexual creatures, that their job has become to give them stuff, keep them safe, and stay out of their way.



im_tam said:


> Also to clarify. While I have taken intimacy off the table, I doubt if there as many husbands as I who despite having a full time job, *do way more than necessary to make the wife's life easy.*


In all the years I've been on forums, guess what the #1 reason women stop respecting their men? Cheat on them? Leave them?

You'd think it was neglecting them. But it's not. It's making their lives easy. Men who put their wives on pedestals, who agree to let them stay at home and not work, or who do all the housework, or let the wives spend all their money...THOSE men end up with wives who won't have sex, who cheat, who leave them. Or just live with them and let the man continue to continue to give them everything, since the man won't leave.


----------



## imtamnew

Turnera,

Thanks.

I have some heavy lifting to do in this. The trouble is finding the motivation to do it.

Where I am placed right now, I see only two options.

Live like a monk or find something on the side.
I have a feeling she would not care which way I go.


----------



## john117

So, I should return to the way of my ancestors where men went to war and women tended the fields. No pedestals required...

While I agree with the premise, trying to place the blame on men for "making it easier" on women is a not of a no starter. 

Instead of blaming men for being selfless giver morons, why not cast some of the blame on women for being selfish taker beaches?


----------



## imtamnew

John, with all due respect I don't think turnera was blaming me. 

My wife keeps bringing up my change in attitude a lot. She will go on and on about how compatible we are in everything except sex. How we both have similar tastes in food and furniture and so on. 

I listen along and nod my head to all this. 

She knows I no longer argue or debate anything with her. 

The other day she was a little angry and said if I did not love her why do I do things for her. 
I just smiled and said I do this stuff for everyone in the family including her parents. I don't do things for others expecting a reward or reciprocating actions from them. 
It's how my mom brought me up. If you can make someone's life easy... You do it.


----------



## turnera

I wasn't blaming him. Just correcting his thought process when he said "I gave her everything, so she shouldn't be doing this."


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> My wife keeps bringing up my change in attitude a lot. She will go on and on about how compatible we are in everything except sex. How we both have similar tastes in food and furniture and so on.
> 
> I listen along and nod my head to all this.


Translation: you're my gay male friend now. I can have oodles of fun with you because sex is off the table now.

And nodding your head is at least half of the problem.

Either decide to LEARN from the people here on how to get your wife re-invested with you, or be decent and just leave her. 

STAYING with her and 'getting some on the side' is in no way honorable, despite anything she says.


----------



## john117

turnera said:


> I wasn't blaming him. Just correcting his thought process when he said "I gave her everything, so she shouldn't be doing this."



I'm talking about the general approach of blaming men who are nice guys. Both sides are to blame.


----------



## imtamnew

What is indecent about me just living with her and cutting out all my intimacy needs from her. Wait for another 15 years when kids are grown and I leave off. 

Also telling her this is my plan and not keeping her in the dark about it at all.


----------



## aine

Im-tam, we women like buying clothes and stuff for our husbands, sometimes to spruce them up a bit, nothing wrong with that. My husband has t shorts from 15 years ago and will wear them unless I intervene 

You sound stubborn. You wounded your wife by what you did in 2004 and now you wont apologize, then suffer the consequences and stop complaining. Woman are easily wounded ( we are not like men) and those small and seemingly insignificant incidents can wound and mount up over the years until your have a big ball of resentment which is the precursor to a walkaway wife. From just this thread i can tell that you have done this over and over to your wife and now act all self righteous. You are reaping what you sowed. You should be thankful that she is still with your and fell in love with you. Stop being so pompous and be a real man. A real man is not afraid to treat his woman with tenderness and think the best of her.


----------



## imtamnew

Thanks aine. 

Just a humble doubt. Did you read the intervening posts between the first and that last one.


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> What is indecent about me just living with her and cutting out all my intimacy needs from her. Wait for another 15 years when kids are grown and I leave off.
> 
> Also telling her this is my plan and not keeping her in the dark about it at all.


Ok, I'll bite.

IF - IF - you actually tell the truth, sit her down, look her in the eyes, and say "I want to stay with you until the kids graduate high school. I don't want to have sex with you or pretend we are anything but roommates. But I expect you to continue to contribute to my life financially, and vice versa. And I will be having sex as I see fit, with whomever I see fit. We'll be in separate rooms, of course, so I won't be inconveniencing you when I bring them home. What do you think?" - if you say that, and she then agrees, then more power to you.

I doubt you'll actually SAY that; I suspect you're going to kinda sorta not really say that, and just continue to shine her on.


----------



## imtamnew

I have no plans at this point of time is sleeping with anyone else. 
I also don't need her finances to sort anything at all. I earn rather well and any earning related advice I give her is to pursue some thing that can help others. Like social services. 

Rest I have told her in pretty much the way you describe.


----------



## turnera

Then why are you here?


----------



## WorkingWife

im_tam said:


> No, I did not apologize. And don't plan to apologize for something I did in 2004.


Why not? She tried to do something nice for you, you interpreted it in a way that is very insulting to her motives, and you hurt her feelings and made her afraid to try to buy anything for you.

You apparently didn't know at the time that you hurt her feelings. But now you do know. If you care about her, why wouldn't you be sorry? Why wouldn't you apologize?

I also don't understand why you considered her buying you "a couple" shirts and trousers an insult and her trying to change your whole wardrobe? Why is that bad if she does it, but it's not insulting to her for you to have bought 70% of her clothes and openly say that you do a better job picking them out than she does?

I am totally baffled by your attitude.

I apologize if I sound harsh but I suspect your wife is trying to make the best of it but if she were honest she would tell us she is very lonely and unhappy in your marriage.


----------



## imtamnew

turnera said:


> Then why are you here?


Venting. I honestly dont have anyone else to sound out my thoughts.


----------



## imtamnew

WorkingWife said:


> Why not? She tried to do something nice for you, you interpreted it in a way that is very insulting to her motives, and you hurt her feelings and made her afraid to try to buy anything for you.
> 
> You apparently didn't know at the time that you hurt her feelings. But now you do know. If you care about her, why wouldn't you be sorry? Why wouldn't you apologize?
> 
> I also don't understand why you considered her buying you "a couple" shirts and trousers an insult and her trying to change your whole wardrobe? Why is that bad if she does it, but it's not insulting to her for you to have bought 70% of her clothes and openly say that you do a better job picking them out than she does?
> 
> I am totally baffled by your attitude.
> 
> I apologize if I sound harsh but I suspect your wife is trying to make the best of it but if she were honest she would tell us she is very lonely and unhappy in your marriage.


Will it make her happy, maybe it will.

Is that alone good enough for me. NO.

This in no way will improve my needs for intimacy. My wife will not suddenly become a HD from the LD that she is. This apology will not suddenly make her more accepting for her own sexuality. It will not make her suddenly decide, I want my husband to be sexually fulfilled.

I don't see why I should apologize.


----------



## turnera

Uh, because it's a decent thing to do? Your lack of respect for her and your resentment shows through. Severely. 

You have a marriage you don't want, with a woman you don't care about, where neither of you is getting your needs met, and I don't know about her, but it's clear YOU could barely care less if she feels good or bad.

I know it was an arranged marriage, but I can only hope, at least for the sake of the kids, that you two will consider just separating, so the two of you can go look for people you'll be happy to spend time with. So your kids can finally see what love is supposed to look like.


----------



## imtamnew

She does not want to separate. She says that I am going thru a phase and will eventually fall back in line.


----------



## WorkingWife

im_tam said:


> Will it make her happy, maybe it will.
> 
> Is that alone good enough for me. NO.
> 
> This in no way will improve my needs for intimacy. My wife will not suddenly become a HD from the LD that she is. This apology will not suddenly make her more accepting for her own sexuality. It will not make her suddenly decide, I want my husband to be sexually fulfilled.
> 
> I don't see why I should apologize.


You would apologize because you misunderstood her intent and unnecessarily hurt her feelings and you're sorry.

But apparently you're not sorry. So I guess you would not apologize.

If the only time you apologize to your wife for mistakes you make is when you think there is something in it for you, and not because you care about her feelings, then she will see through that and be even more adverse to having sex with you.

Having read more of this thread I am confused. I don't know if she bought you a "couple" pair of pants and shirts, or if she tried to remake your entire wardrobe. And if she did try to furnish your wardrobe was it really an insult, or because she thought that was what she was supposed to do as a wife.

But then I read how you went out of your way to take her to visit family and she wouldn't even get you a glass of water. That does sound very rude on her part. Maybe she felt embarrassed, like you were ordering her around in front of family when you were both seated and you were closer. Or maybe she is just an entitled princess in her mind.

I am sorry for your situation, it must be very frustrating to both of you. I will tell you this: Women don't want sex for the same reasons men do. Women want sex more when they feel loved, cared for, understood, and close to their husband. And typically women are more LD than most men regardless.

I don't know if you two can be in love. Maybe with more communication. How much time do you spend with her, just the two of you doing something fun? If not very much, you might try spending more time with her, just being close, and she may develop more romantic love for you.


----------



## imtamnew

I took small baby steps. Asked my wife about clothes and just like that asked why she does not buy me any. 

She said I had rejected get twice in 2004, for buying me clothes. 
Once is this incident and the other when she got me a shirt with floral patterns. 
Then she said the reason she does not buy for me is because I don't wear clothes that she thinks would look good. 
She brought up another incident of a shirt she helped me choose. I had not reacted badly but I hardly ever wrote that shirt. 
How ever she also got me one shirt in2012. Turns out that I do wear it often but it's a shirt that she did not like but bought because she knew I will like it. 

I reminded her that she has at times not liked what I buy for her and I have gone back to the store to exchange it.

When I asked her why it was ok for her to have an issue and its a problem only when I have one, she remembered she had a lot of pending work.
In her hurry to go to away she hit her elbow on the wall. Blamed me for that and went away.

The tirade continued for a little longer, when she realized the water for my son's bath had gone cold (sicne I took away 5 mins of her time) she of course blamed for that as well.

She can find time to talk as long as the topic is not asking her to look into our relationship. I sometimes feel that this is just so she does not have to acknowledge that there are issues.
She wants to keep herself in an ostrich mode.


----------



## imtamnew

Should I continue trying to engage her in this topic?


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> Should I continue trying to engage her in this topic?


Why? What is your end game?

The clothes discussion seems so trivial in the big scheme of things. You have a lot more pressing issues than "my wife won't buy me clothes any more".


----------



## imtamnew

I think of this as getting a foothold into changing the next 30 or 40 years we live together. 

If I am able to get her to see things my way. AND I am able to see things her way. We might have a future together.


----------



## imtamnew

So repeating my question.

Should I continue trying to engage her in this topic?


----------



## turnera

Continue trying usually means whatever 'trying' looks like isn't working.

Find another way. Like the HNHN route, to make her amenable to listening to you.


----------



## imtamnew

Thanks. But the trouble with hnhn... She will not read any book not meet any therapist to change the situation. 

Whatever has to be done, I have to do myself.


----------



## turnera

And if you'd read HNHN, you'd already know she doesn't HAVE to read it. YOU do. You read it, understand it, and implement it. It works.


----------



## imtamnew

Thanks I will give it a shot as soon as my current book is done. Love my best friend... The kindle.


----------



## imtamnew

The more I think about this and the less inclined I am to salvage this situation. 

I want to end it. I am stuck in some sort of yoyo mode and not able to decide.


----------



## turnera

Trial separation?


----------



## imtamnew

I don't know. I have barely been sleeping and this is driving me mad. 

I have never been so messed up in my head for so long on one decision. 

My wife is going on as if there is nothing wrong and here I am unable to decide what I want to do. 

She is convinced in her head that this is a normal phase for every one. It does not matter to her that her husband never even asks anything from her. 

She knows or maybe senses that I have become very detached but takes not even one step towards asking what is wrong. 

One thing I know for sure. Even if I do divorce and move on.... I am never getting married again. I am not cut out for this.


----------



## imtamnew

I think one of my biggest challenges is running thru the multiple scenarios. 

I don't do anything and remain like this. 
I walk out now without a divorce and cause a big mess in our collective families. 
I divorce and cause a bigger mess. 

I find someone and get cosy. Keep it hidden for as long as I want. When I get caught and I know I will get caught. Let things work themselves out.


----------



## turnera

When I said separation, I meant separate to be ALONE. With NO woman in your life. To learn to be ok by yourself, not need anything else, and to figure out what's important in your life. It would be good for you.


----------



## imtamnew

Why are you so sure that the issues are with me. 

I am not saying I don't have issues. But why are you so sure.


----------



## imtamnew

There is a lot that is not raised here simply because I can't bad mouth my wife who is not here to defend our justify herself. 

But as a brief glimpse how do you think a guy must deal with when his wife stands at the edge of a balcony threatening to jump off because she woke up and saw you were watching TV. 

This happened after a medical treatment for her infertility thing. A day when I was beside her the whole day and only after she slept did I put on TV with no volume as I was too tired to sleep.


----------



## turnera

Why are you so defensive? You think I'm blaming you for something?

I'm trying to help you find a way to achieve peace. If your current situation isn't working, logic dictates changing your situation. Since you can't change your spouse, you can try changing your side of the street. If that's not enough to give you peace, I suggested a separation. Your next response was to get another woman.

Thus my suggestion that, instead of looking for another woman to make you happy, learn to be happy with yourself, by allowing yourself to find happiness being alone, and THEN look outward for other things (women, etc.) to COMPLEMENT your life, instead of looking for the women to make you happy.


----------



## imtamnew

I really appreciate your helping me.

I am just in a very bad place mentally and at some breaking point. I don't know what to do.

I kick myself for not having taken help from family in the early days. Now I just feel that being held up as a model couple is where the issue really becomes crappy for me.


----------



## turnera

The biggest problem many people have is worrying about what other people think of them.

They aren't living your life. Why not schedule a therapy session?


----------



## imtamnew

Me: Dear we have a problem. We need therapy.
The Wife: We have no problems. You are making things up.
Me: We need to talk.
The Wife: Ok. But I am not talking the same nonsense again and again about how we have a problem.

I have given up asking her to come with me to therapy.

In her perfect world, we are the ideal couple.


----------



## turnera

I was talking about YOU going.


----------



## imtamnew

It's ramzan time so we both wake up at 330 am to eat. Usually go back to sleep at 430.

Today it got into a heated discussion. Thankfully not loud. 

I got an interesting insight into my wife. She is the youngest of four sisters. Her sisters are much older than her. Every one was married against their will. While one of those has survived for so long. Two are in big trouble. One sister is separated and another is very unhappy and lives with her parents. Her husband is not exactly out of the scene but is almost invisible and gets no respect from anyone. 

So from the time she was ten years old the only impression my wife has had of a married life is a negative one. Frequent arguments at home because of her sisters failed marraiges. 

Something my Wife mentioned today rambled for a long time. Calling all marraiges a sham that can only cause pain and despair. 

I will break out turnera. I am just trying to find my self and be very sure before I do something.


----------



## Tron

So, in the past year, 

1. You nipped an EA in the bud

2. She consistently complains about you to her friends, and she still feels that way even when her friends tell her she has it pretty good,

3. She consistently rejects you

4. She demeans you

5. She accuses you of being gay

6. She dismisses your desire for intimacy and verbally castrates you when you can't perform for her in 2 or 3 minutes like she wants

7. She tells you that she has had a negative image of marriage and you, since day one...and in fact learned that as a small child because of her family problems 

8. She has little to no empathy for you and has little desire to meet your needs, 

9. She doesn't appreciate you for more than what you provide for her economically

10. She is an entitled princess

AND

Your frustration over the years has resulted in you getting physical with her.

I won't tell you that I think this marriage is finished, but I think you two definitely need to separate.

The threat of separation has obviously been insufficient to get the complete reset on the marriage that you need to make this work long term OR inspire her to work on her own issues.

It is time to follow through.


----------



## imtamnew

Thanks Tron.

All points except #2 is true. She has never complained about me to any of her friends. What she does is she does say is that no one will agree with her if she were to complain about me.

Between the two of us, we have killed our marriage or at least rendered it comatose. 

Unless I follow thru and leave, I don't see how I can salvage my life.
Makes me feel horrible about it but we both deserve better.

I am more worried about how my mother will take this. I have kept all this away from family for so long that it will be a big shock for everyone.


----------



## Tron

How are you going to approach it? And when?


----------



## imtamnew

I think it simpler to go find some girl. Make my own sex tape. Get caught and thrown out easier and simpler than confronting my entire family.

Just kidding.

I have never considered myself a coward till now. This inability to decide is so damn killing me.

Sex is VERY important to me. But the problem is when I repeat it as if I am telling it to someone else, it sounds like Sex is very important TO ME.
This fight to be taking a selfish decision is so bewildering.


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> I think it simpler to go find some girl. Make my own sex tape. Get caught and thrown out easier and simpler than confronting my entire family.
> 
> Just kidding.


No offense, but this is the coward's way out and may put a torch to any desire on her part to make changes or work to have a better marriage and sex life with you. AND, if you actually care about what people think of you, this route isn't going to make them say "That im_tam is such a GREAT guy". People you know aren't going to be trying to set you up with their daughters or cousins down the road when you spend all your time with prostitutes, etc.

Of course, if you simply want the divorce and the ability to fvck whatever you want, whenever you want, then just get the divorce done. 

At least for me, sex without connection isn't much worth having.



im_tam said:


> I have never considered myself a coward till now. This inability to decide is so damn killing me.
> 
> Sex is VERY important to me. But the problem is when I repeat it as if I am telling it to someone else, it sounds like Sex is very important TO ME.
> This fight to be taking a selfish decision is so bewildering.


Step up and be the best moral and respectable man you can be.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? It's a pretty quick read and free. https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## imtamnew

Tron. I am also saying the same thing as you are.
Finding a girl is the cowardly way. Maybe I could have framed it better. But that was my intention as maybe a second reading of my post will make clear to you.

I have read the NMMNG and did not really find it very helpful.


----------



## Tron

Are you normally a "take charge kind of man" at the office?


----------



## imtamnew

I have handled quite a few different roles in my office. Been in the same industry for over 13 years and a large part of it in the same company.

My preferred roles involve monitoring compliance to standards. I enjoy this job a lot.
I am however not very comfortable in a manager kind of role, because I prefer doing things myself rather than delegate.

But having said that, my role frequently needs me to delegate and I do it and pull it to completion.


----------



## Tron

She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her or that there is such a thing as a good marriage.

You won't be able to delegate this responsibility.


----------



## imtamnew

Tron said:


> She doesn't think there is anything wrong with her or that there is such a thing as a good marriage.
> 
> You won't be able to delegate this responsibility.



I agree with this. Completely.

In my wife's mind there is nothing wrong with the marriage. We are just going thru a phase.

She can't understand why I am suddenly not ok with this when I was ok with it till yesterday.
Yesterday. That is what she thinks. Her sense of time is that we were in bliss till yesterday and I am now suddenly bringing up stuff that has never been an issue.

Also Tron about the EA thing. I am very sure that my wife was not pursuing it at all.
She was stuck in a bad spot and only being polite. I am very confident on this.


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> I agree with this. Completely.
> 
> In my wife's mind there is nothing wrong with the marriage. We are just going thru a phase.
> 
> She can't understand why I am suddenly not ok with this when I was ok with it till yesterday.
> Yesterday. That is what she thinks. Her sense of time is that we were in bliss till yesterday and I am now suddenly bringing up stuff that has never been an issue.


You have been here on TAM for almost a year, trying to figure this $hit out. Going to counseling, suggesting MC, etc. 

She cannot possibly be that obtuse. 

And if she is, then maybe a separation is the wake-up call she needs.



im_tam said:


> Also Tron about the EA thing. I am very sure that my wife was not pursuing it at all.
> She was stuck in a bad spot and only being polite. I am very confident on this.


Understood. Be that as it may, it is a slippery slope. She is attractive. Guys want to fvck attractive women. Human nature. Things start out innocent...then one thing leads to another.


----------



## turnera

It doesn't matter if she's ok with you wanting more, as long as you're willing to walk. If you're willing to walk, then you just say 'this isn't working, so I'm moving on, unless you're interested in meeting me halfway.'


----------



## imtamnew

Not so good an update.

A couple of days back my wife had some girls night out with her old school girl friends. This is the first time in more than a decade that it was being done and she would be out of the house for the night. No issues at all and she had a fun time. Glad about that.

The next day something nasty blew up in my work and I had to leave town for 3 days.
My wife returned and I immediately left.

My d4 was already a little down and she had been crying in sleep calling her mom. She went down with fever that night.
The next night my s2 is down with really severe fever and according to my wife was spending all his time looking at the door.

He was getting his medicine and stuff but the fever kept persisting. I returned 3 days later and both kids hugged me so tight. My son's fever was all gone within the next 3 hours.

Missing his mother and then me on consecutive nights proved to strong for that little guy.

I will not be able to leave these kids and keep them away from either of us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

My wife has started sleeping with me in the same room. She wants to initiate but I have no spirit in me to do it. My body gets hard and willing but I cannot do it. The walls are tooo strong.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I was watching some videos on youtube and I realize that I am suffering some serious depression.
I have upped my exercise and stuff. Taking special care to tire myself with exercise. Eating very carefully.

Not in a good place and I am just venting it out.
I know easy step is to just walk out and throw it all behind. But the fact that I walked away from my kids................


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> I was watching some videos on youtube and I realize that I am suffering some serious depression.
> I have upped my exercise and stuff. Taking special care to tire myself with exercise. Eating very carefully.
> 
> Not in a good place and I am just venting it out.
> I know easy step is to just walk out and throw it all behind. But the fact that I walked away from my kids................


Your wife is initiating...hmmm.

Understand that if you are seriously depressed it skews your interpretation of everything around you. Exercise and diet may not be enough to pull you out of it.

Have you considered going on anti-depressants for a time?


----------



## BillytheKid

I'm in agreement with your wife on this one. I don't blame her after being traumatized by your reaction in 2004. It sounds like she was really trying --- at the very least, you could have acknowledged that.


----------



## imtamnew

No. I don't want to go on anti depressants. In fact I don't even take pain killers to deal with sports injuries. That also includes a fracture when I discontinued pain killers after just two days.

She initiates, tries to kiss me. I respond but I am just hitting a very cold spot in my heart. I don't know what to do .


----------



## turnera

im_tam said:


> No. I don't want to go on anti depressants. In fact I don't even take pain killers to deal with sports injuries. That also includes a fracture when I discontinued pain killers after just two days.
> 
> She initiates, tries to kiss me. I respond but I am just hitting a very cold spot in my heart. I don't know what to do .


You may not WANT to, but you're an adult now, and you have responsibilities to your children, if not your wife. Depression can easily lead to very wrong decisions that 'seem' right to the depressed person, including suicide. Talk to your doctor.


----------



## imtamnew

I don't consider myself at risk of suicide or even hurting anyone.

This entire situation sucks a lot for me. It hurts big time. But my belief in God is way stronger and it helps me put things in perspective.

One of the main if not the only reason I am unable to cheat on my wife is because its difficult to take the God out of my daily existence.


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> I don't consider myself at risk of suicide or _*even hurting anyone*_.
> 
> This entire situation sucks a lot for me. It hurts big time. But my belief in God is way stronger and it helps me put things in perspective.
> 
> One of the main if not the only reason I am unable to cheat on my wife is because its difficult to take the God out of my daily existence.


You are hurting your marriage and your children by not looking into this and going to see a doctor or psychiatrist about it.


----------



## sapientia

thefam said:


> She was trying in a marriage she wanted no part of. She got out of her comfort zone and tried to do something nice for you and you shot her down. Did you ever apologize?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





im_tam said:


> No, I did not apologize. And don't plan to apologize for something I did in 2004.


Did you ever speak with her about this? Small hurtful deeds can become big marriage-killing cancers, unaddressed.

Don't allow your pride to become larger than your love for your family. Pride is a monster that eats happiness.


----------



## imtamnew

I did talk with her. Did not apologize but told her that I am older and the way I look at things today is different than how I did 12 years back.

There are a lot of things we could have done differently. More importantly I know that I can't nice my way into anyone's heart.

Also I had an epiphany today. Interesting that it happened today and someone (thankfully) quoted this post and hence got me to write it down here.
My epiphany is that my wife is a sheep and I am her shepherd. I have to lead her on for everything. On her own she will keep thinking in loops and loops over things that are not at all there.

In fact just this weekend have planned on a holiday for all of us. Driving down to a beautiful place. As usual she did start with her hhmmmm and hmmmmms but I still relying on my epiphany, put my foot down and said this is not exactly a discussion.

I think I have to deal with her as a leader or almost a dictator. She seems much happier this way. I think all the talk on women's lib went by her and she wants and 18th century marriage.

I hope I am making sense. Its not as horrible as I might have made it sound.


----------



## Tron

im_tam said:


> In fact just this weekend have planned on a holiday for all of us. Driving down to a beautiful place. As usual she did start with her hhmmmm and hmmmmms but I still relying on my epiphany, put my foot down and said this is not exactly a discussion.


How did she react to that?


----------



## imtamnew

She is looking forward to the trip.


----------



## Tron

Nice.

Continue to captain the ship and see where that leads you.


----------



## sapientia

im_tam said:


> My epiphany is that my wife is a sheep and I am her shepherd. I have to lead her on for everything. On her own she will keep thinking in loops and loops over things that are not at all there.
> 
> I hope I am making sense. Its not as horrible as I might have made it sound.


Big shrug from me. One thing I've learned from experience is there is no single right answer for relationships--of any kind. The harmony is found in the blend, not the individual components. I wonder if she agrees with your assessment, tho. That would be interesting.

If it works for you both, then carry on.


----------



## john117

You can lead all you want - it does not mean you can lead her to an improved intimate life. I've planned many elaborate vacations and while my planning ability is never in doubt it did not do anything at the end. So I stopped doing it.


----------



## imtamnew

Last night after we spent some time talking, she went to sleep with the kids as I had some office call.

I was of course a little pissed at this "take charge thing I am doing".
I want an equal and not a sheep.
Which might explain why I was posting here at 3:30 AM local time.

Then in the morning I saw she had left a message on my whatsapp.
Before sleeping I had changed my message into something like never give more than you take.

In bold is stuff I have changed.



> Your status message is apt and very true. Just saw it. Sometimes walking alone is good than in company. It's a little time for introspection as well.I am diligent for few days after every talk you give and then I become sluggish.. It's always been the case. I came home after walking .. Started dusting the house and kind of realised in the kitchen that I wasn't able to remove the grime on the sugar salt tea shelf. So thought maybe you would be able to do it. I can just do the basic Dusting while you could polish it up using your power is what i thought. Then i remembered that you had said it is very easy if you use mr.muscle*(A cleaning spray)*. so i thought why should i always just do the basic needful dusting and leave the polishing part to you. Why can't I polish it. So I used the cleaner and it is so easy.Likewise,I should start polishing on my relationship with you rather than think that it is your job.i came to the room.. Cuddled u.. But you seemed disinterested. That very moment. Heard *S2 *crying. Opened the door to see that he was standing in the corner in tears. Lay down with him and thought would at least drop a message to you when I chanced upon your status message. Updated hardly four hours ago. So you sleep at least till your daughter wakes up. Please go ahead With vacation plan.


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## AliceA

I take it as you made a completely d*ck move and you never apologised for it. 10 years later I'm guessing you still haven't made a genuine apology. I wouldn't buy you anything either.


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## imtamnew

Hi breeze,

Did you read the full thread or at least my posts apart from the one's on the first page?

Thanks,


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## Tron

Somewhat encouraging.

What do you think im_tam?


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## turnera

Did you share your epiphany with HER? Ask HER if that's the way she'd like it? If not, you're just living a different lie than you had before. You STARTED to increase communication, by talking about the past. Could you have done a LOT more of it? Yes. But at least you started. Now's the time to start asking her what HER version of a good marriage looks like and see if it jives with your dictatorship model.

And did you notice in her message to you that you rejected her (again)? Did you respond to that by saying I'm sorry you felt rejected; it wasn't my intention? To show that you actually LISTEN to her? That would go a long way on improving your relationship.


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## imtamnew

Yes I shared and she actually said thanks because deciding things tire her a lot.

I did not reject her. I had slept at 4 am.
She was cuddling me at 530 am.
I was in such deep sleep that I have zero recollection of this.

And what do I think. Well am still trying. Have not abandoned either my morals or my family.

She is also trying but I think her ability is much lesser than mine in putting up with patience.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> I was of course a little pissed at this "take charge thing I am doing".
> I want an equal and not a sheep.


Unfortunately, OP your beta tendencies go against human female biology and thousands of years of societal conditioning.

She has just told you that she wants and likes for you to take charge and be the alpha male. I don't think it is a stretch to say that that is what she is attracted to, because that's perfectly normal. 

I would suggest that you begin reconditioning yourself to do that in whatever areas you feel have an impact on her emotionally. 

Your W wants a more take charge kind of guy. Maybe she wants to be submissive and would get off on that. 



turnera said:


> Now's the time to start asking her what HER version of a good marriage looks like and see if it jives with your dictatorship model.


I agree.



turnera said:


> And did you notice in her message to you that you rejected her (again)? Did you respond to that by saying I'm sorry you felt rejected; it wasn't my intention? To show that you actually LISTEN to her? That would go a long way on improving your relationship.


I agree with this too.


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## imtamnew

Thanks guys. Will work on it.

Its funny isnt'it that I find it so easy to be the mad alpha outside the house but have issues in dominating it out with close family.
Most people outside of my home consider me a total mad thrill seeking nut case. At home I have difficulty raising my voice beyond a reasonable limit simply because I grew up in an environment that restricted such open display of anger.

My childhood had my dad absent for really long periods of time as he worked in a different country. So I grew up in a house that had only women. Makes me an absolute sweetheart to women since I can cook,clean,mop and do every single chore. But my wife wants me to be an ashole who only orders and does nothing at all.

And I am not ok with anyone else doing chores while I sit and watch TV.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> Thanks guys. Will work on it.
> 
> Its funny isnt'it that I find it so easy to be the mad alpha outside the house but have issues in dominating it out with close family.
> Most people outside of my home consider me a total mad thrill seeking nut case. At home I have difficulty raising my voice beyond a reasonable limit simply because I grew up in an environment that restricted such open display of anger.
> 
> My childhood had my *dad absent* for really long periods of time as he worked in a different country. So I *grew up in a house that had only women*. Makes me an *absolute sweetheart to women* since I can *cook,clean,mop and do every single chore*. But my *wife wants me to be an ashole* who only orders and does nothing at all.
> 
> And I am not ok with anyone else doing chores while I sit and watch TV.


It is counter-intuitive...for sure. If you read No More Mister Nice Guy and MMSLP, the topics in bold above are discussed in some detail.

And you don't honestly have to be a complete Ahole. Just more assertive. Not necessarily a dictator, but a person in charge of his family and his life. A man with a plan. And one that doesn't take a bunch $hit from people (especially W), doesn't react to a bunch of $hit and who is prepared to do what he wants, when he wants. 

If you've read Married Man Sex Life Primer and got nothing out of it, read it again now.

Maybe your perspective has changed.


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> But my wife wants me to be an ashole who only orders and does nothing at all.


No, your wife wants you to be an alpha male. 

Which is a man who knows how to run a household in confidence and calm. Who is NEVER an *******. Who loves his wife yet has no fear of her leaving because he knows he's valuable and can replace her - yet who will move heaven and earth to ensure she feels loved, cherished, and cared for.

And if you're saying she doesn't want you to do chores, many women are like that because, just as men get their identity through their work, many women get their identity through their ability to cook, clean, and care for a man. You can find a happy medium for that.


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## imtamnew

Well the holiday is going really nice so far. Since we drove down like six hours, it gave a chance to talk while the kids slept.

Neither of us could raise our voices nor run away.

Will post again with more details. Its dinner time now.


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## imtamnew

My wife had the following things she kept repeating.

1. There is nothing more that I (im_tam) can do.
2. She wants to spend more time and be a lot more intimate with me.
3. She feels that the entire onus is now on her to improve.
4. I am way too kind to her and take care of everything.
5. She has told many times that she will improve but knows she has not held up to her side of the deal.
6. She does not want us to divorce or live alone.
7. She cannot understand WHY SEX IS IMPORTANT.
8. She does not want me to have an affair and it will be the one reason why she will leave me. She cannot share me.  (I loved this answer)

Sometime around this I told her something I had read here and always wanted to tell her:
"You are married to me and hence sworn to a monogamous relation but I don't feel like having sex"

She was silent for a long time after I said that. And after that kept repeating that she will work on it.


Let me see....



She did have one funny complaint:
When we sit together and there is no one else...or if she smiles at me and I look her, or any moment I am with her.
I get erect.
She says that its very irritating that I am thinking of sex. I told her its not like that. It just gets erect like its trying to tell her a hello or something. But I really have no answer to her about this.
We been married 12 years. I find her very attractive and desirable. There is no way I can control this and then told her to go an complain to any gf of hers. To just know its very normal for a husband to always desire his wife.


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## turnera

First, so she wants you to be an alpha male, just like I told you (numbers 1 through 5). If you can't figure this out on your own, read a couple books: Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. and No More Mr Nice Guy. They will teach you how to be the 'man' she wants you to be - strong, confident, unwilling to take sh*t from her.

Second, she is naive and ignorant about male anatomy and sexuality. I suggest that you take her to the MC - I assume you have one?! - and discuss this issue - where she doesn't 'get' why you, a male, are so into sex. She needs to learn that MEN ARE INTO SEX, it's biological, you have the stronger sex drive, and she just needs to accept it. That said, you also need to understand that women have to be EMOTIONALLY connected to you, into you, turned on by you, before they want to have sex with you. So you DO have some responsibility here to learn what DOES turn her on, and provide that.


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## imtamnew

We had sex last night. It was good. The same old missionary but it was good.

Help me understand something. When I put my foot down and tell her that she is pushing it, she gives me either an angry outburst or tells me I am driving her mad.

What is a good response for these situations. I will get on to reading all the books but something big just blew up at work and I am stuck on that stupid but nasty issue.

And a big thanks to everyone who has been helping me cope with this.


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## turnera

What do you mean by pushing it? What's the circumstance?


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## imtamnew

She was cooking and grumbling and telling me that she cannot be like my mom and sister who put their respective spouses as more the most prioritized people in their lives.
I have heard this rant many times.

I told her to move on and stop comparing herself with everyone in the world. Then she went on about why I need to contradict her and some more ranting. 

I just said that its good that she aint my mom or sister because that would be very confusing.

She got angry at that and kept on for some more time. I had by then finished my dinner and went to another room.

Later she came over and said sorry, that she did not mean to keep ranting while I was eating. I said its ok to rant but moving on to better rants is better as this particular one has become worn out.
She laughed and went back.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> Help me understand something. When I put my foot down and tell her that she is pushing it, she gives me either an angry outburst or tells me I am driving her mad.
> 
> What is a good response for these situations. I will get on to reading all the books but something big just blew up at work and I am stuck on that stupid but nasty issue.


If you haven't figured it out already...do not respond with your own rants, don't get angry. Respond with...HUMOR!

She left the room last night with a smile on her face. You did good.


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## imtamnew

I would like some advice on another situation as well.

I swear that I don't really talk beyond the occasional Hi or Hello with the other women in my apartment complex.

But everyone sees me out there with my kids. Most of them know that I get groceries and stuff. Almost everyone knows that I take care of my family in a very special way.
So when these women meet my wife they go on and on about how lucky my wife is.

My wife makes it a point to tell me this over and over again and most times in a rather sarcastic tone. I almost always laugh it off but it gets to me that she will feel this way.
She knows I don't even talk with anyone and mind my own business.


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## Tron

She's insecure. She knows she doesn't reciprocate or take good enough care of you.

Also take note that the stuff you are doing that those women are talking about is a lot of beta. 

Like Turnera says, your W wants/likes an alpha male. 




im_tam said:


> So when these women meet my wife they go on and on about how lucky my wife is.
> 
> My wife makes it a point to tell me this over and over again and most times in a rather sarcastic tone. I almost always laugh it off but it gets to me that she will feel this way.
> She knows I don't even talk with anyone and mind my own business.


As an experiment, just for fun, maybe you should talk with some of them over the next couple of weeks. That is what an alpha would do. See what happens at home.


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## imtamnew

hmm Maybe I should do that. But then I will have to keep answering so many many questions.
I don't answer them, but she will NOT shut up.

While I agree that I need to be more Alpha at home. I doubt if anyone outside the four walls of my house see me that way.
I just have to adopt the same approach at home.

Will get around to reading all these books you guys have so suggested. I need that stuff to make my home better.


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> So when these women meet my wife they go on and on about how lucky my wife is.
> 
> My wife makes it a point to tell me this over and over again and most times in a rather sarcastic tone. I almost always laugh it off but it gets to me that she will feel this way.
> She knows I don't even talk with anyone and mind my own business.


Next time just say 'hey, it's not my fault they recognize a great husband when they see one; maybe you should be more grateful you WERE the lucky one to get me instead of ragging on my ass for it. It DOES get old.'


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> hmm Maybe I should do that. But then I will have to keep answering so many many questions.
> I don't answer them, but she will NOT shut up.
> 
> While I agree that I need to be more Alpha at home. I doubt if anyone outside the four walls of my house see me that way.
> I just have to adopt the same approach at home.
> 
> Will get around to reading all these books you guys have so suggested. I need that stuff to make my home better.


You will learn in NMMNG that when she rants on and on, your job is to turn to her and say 'this is getting old and if you're not willing to have a civil conversation, I'm not willing to sit here and be harangued by you. Either talk to me with respect, or I'm going to leave the room.' 

And the LEAVE THE ROOM if she won't stop.

And go get the book. Now. Today.


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## Tron

turnera said:


> You will learn in NMMNG that when she rants on and on, your job is to turn to her and say 'this is getting old and if you're not willing to have a civil conversation, I'm not willing to sit here and be harangued by you. Either talk to me with respect, or I'm going to leave the room.'
> 
> And the LEAVE THE ROOM if she won't stop.
> 
> And go get the book. Now. Today.


Agree with this.

Now, here's the first one...and it's free! 

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## imtamnew

Thanks for the link.

Will read the book and right now listening to youtube 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8s_jkFi2Uk

I get what this whole thing is about.
No black and white or even greys in the GOOD Guy or A'Hole.

Will read thru and hopefully build a good platform for both of us. Thanks again.


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## imtamnew

@YellowSunfan07: I read your post ONCE.

I will read it a hundred more times and everytime I read it I bless you with all my heart.

Thanks a LOT.
I wanted to write what I feel based on my first reading so that I can come back again after I have read it a couple more times. This will help me see the way I understand things. 


My wife's parents are very cold to each other. They have been married over 50 years. And in the many years I have seen them not once have I seen anything beyond the care and compassion you see between longtime partners. I don't think I have seen any evidence of passion the way I have seen between my parents.

I love to tell my wife all those things you mentioned abut how much I desire her. I read a lot of poetry and I tell her all that stuff only to be shut down as being a fool.

I was very fit in college. Lifting weight and running a lot but the years of marriage leading into depression added a lot of weight. It was a chance picture of myself that I saw in 2008 that kicked me very hard.
I picked up a lot of habits including cycling and walking. I got back to my 34 inch jeans and I feel very good about that. The past 2-3 years I have started to invest in better clothes and take care on my appearance. Especially since my daughter does not like me dress sloppy. So that helps as well.

I will read your post a lot more times. I am very thankful for your kindness.


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## imtamnew

Thanks.

2. Did you two get any premarital counseling/ advice from elders?
No we did not get anything of that sort.
Two of her three sisters are separated from their husbands. I don't blame them because in both cases the marriages failed of their own accord.
They don't even divorce and get done with it but continue separate lives in different cities.

Common interests are our kids and food. We both work very well together in the kitchen. We can literally dance around each other when we prepare food for the family.
I do have a couple of other interests which I pursue including travel and a very popular blog.
She has none.

She always knows I am there for her and would do anything.

For today evening she already has asked me and I agreed to help her with some sewing. Curtains and stuff which need two people to cut and alter. 
I have no problems in doing such stuff for her.

I know this will get a kick as a beta trait. But my alternate at home is to then sit and watch TV. Something that I don't really like especially when there is some work available to do.


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> I know this will get a kick as a beta trait. But my alternate at home is to then sit and watch TV. Something that I don't really like especially when there is some work available to do.


The key im_tam is that if you don't particularly like doing something (like sit and watch tv) then don't do it. Do things you like to do...that make you feel good about yourself. And don't feel guilty about that.

Conversely, don't do things that make you feel bad about yourself or someone else (i.e. cause resentment). 

You don't have to be a dictator or an a'hole. Just firm and resolute. A leader.


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> For today evening she already has asked me and I agreed to help her with some sewing. Curtains and stuff which need two people to cut and alter.
> I have no problems in doing such stuff for her.
> 
> I know this will get a kick as a beta trait. But my alternate at home is to then sit and watch TV. Something that I don't really like especially when there is some work available to do.


There's nothing beta in helping your partner get something done. That is manly and responsible. Now, if you were to go to her every day when you get home and say 'honey, what can I do for you today?' - and ensure that YOU have no life, THAT would be beta. Do you see the difference? 

Another great book on this is Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. Basically, it says love your wife, put your family first, BUT always ensure that YOU are being nourished as well. The example, IIRC, is a man who has played Saturday morning basketball with 'the boys' for the past 5 years, every Saturday. He marries and she instantly tells him he has to stop playing basketball, it's disrespectful to her, she should be all he needs, blah blah blah. And he caves and gives up the basketball, and sinks into misery and resentment. What he SHOULD have done is said 'I love you with all my heart, but my happiness matters, too. My playing basketball is important to me, and I need it; and I need you to understand that. I'm giving myself to you and the kids in every other aspect of my life, and I'm keeping the basketball.'

Amazingly, what happens next is that the woman - unless she's mentally unstable - instantly feels respect and admiration for him for standing up for himself. AS LONG AS he is truly there for her in all other ways.


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## imtamnew

I do that.

My hobbies or rather my passion in a particular thing absolutely not connected to my work is something that has not diminished and will never go away.
It defines who I am and she knows better than to interfere there.

I cannot go into details of that because it will take away some of the anonymity that I want here. But I made it very clear early in our marriage that there are some parts of my time that are NOT negotiable.




> What was your relationship with your parents like? did they praise you? how many children are there in your family? Which child are you? i.e. eldest/ middle What role did you play? Have you always cared for others? Is there now a touch of resentment about that? Are you projecting?


The eldest of two kids. My mom and dad love and appreciate almost everything I do. Never felt I was judged or ever on a slightly less than most valued by either of them. They love me and my sister almost unconditionally.
Our relationship is very close and my parents love eachother a lot. They also love eachother a lot and I speak to them on an almost daily basis. My dad asks and gives advice.
I think I am one of my mom's closest friends and confidantes.

My wife on the other hand lives in the same city as her parents and they have a rough relationship. Sometimes I feel that I am the reason why they all don't end up fighting with eachother. 

They are very good people. But they have a very nutty sense of relationship that is constantly questioning each other.

I know my wife resents how close I am to my mom and is very jealous of this. My mom and sister live in a different city.
My mom makes my sisters life very easy. Baby sitting and even preparing food for her.
My mother in law does nothing of this sort for my kids. But then again my in-laws are much older than my parents and I don't think its actually possible for them to do it all.
My wife understands that its difficult for her much older parents and resents them anyways.


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## imtamnew

hmmm..

Deep down I don't really believe that I have what it takes to turn things around and make them better.
I am not used to screaming and shouting and being mean on purpose.

TAM helped me understand a lot of things about relationships. It helps me understand myself a lot better.

We both did go to IC last year after the slapping incident. I will never try and rationalize or justify myself. What I did was wrong. There is no hiding from that and I will regret it till the last day of my life.
My wife even after that incident refused MC. So at the IC we both met different therapists.
I met a lady who was known to my sister in law. The only sister in law who is still living with her husband.
The day after I slapped my wife, I called up my sister in law and told her everything. It was her advice to go and meet this therapist. My wife refused to meet the same therapist because she was friends with her sister.

My therapist helped me understand why I had blown up and made me recognize the amount of pent up resentment that had built up over the years.
My wife therapist later asked to meet me. Without my wife's knowledge. He frankly told me that people like my wife cannot be helped. She lives in her own world. Lacks the ability to put herself in others shoes. No empathy.

--------------------------------------------

Remember the curtains I had promised to help her with. She did not like the way I was holding the curtain while she was cutting it. Started the usual screaming and shouting. I let go of the curtain and sat down. This is something I do when I don't know what needs to be done.
Told her that once she can speak and not shout, to come back and get her work completed.
She kept screaming and screaming.
I no longer raise my voice.

Just kept softly telling her that once she is done with her ranting to apologize and return.

She did not apologize but cooled off after sometime. Then asked me to help her with the sewing machine as it was not working.
Since she was not screaming or being mean. I took a look and figured a belt had snapped inside it.

Anyways. She comes to my room after sometime and apologizes for the screaming and shouting.

But its not a full apology. Because along with it is a rant that either she will die soon or I will as a result of pressure from her screaming and ranting.

I no longer acknowledge or accept her apologies.
--------------------------------

She was so happy during dinner and then this.

----------------------------------


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## imtamnew

YellowSunfan07 said:


> EDIT.



I am not a troll. I can see why would say that but I am not one.
My consistent story since 2013 and my ip which I am sure the mods can see will prove it to them that I am definitely not trolling.

Between her flare up and her cooling of was all of 5 mins.
That was the amount of time it lasts nowadays.

And its not a regular daily feature but the clouds are always around.


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> hmmm..
> 
> Deep down I don't really believe that I have what it takes to turn things around and make them better.
> I am not used to screaming and shouting and being mean on purpose.


Huh? Who told you to scream and shout?

When someone screams at you, there is ONE response: LEAVE THE ROOM.

Period. It is VERY effective. You can't scream at someone who's no longer in the room. GREAT education for her. Watch this video; it's your wife: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-OfmmRaqs

Do NOT just sit down when she starts. That is giving her permission to abuse you. LEAVE THE ROOM.

IF you two stay together, these are the kinds of changes you have to start making, to change the balance in the relationship.


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## imtamnew

I am leaving. That much is sure.

Its the timeline which I am unable to figure out.
I would love to be around with her while my kids grow up. My young son is just 2 years old. My daughter is 4 and a half.

They will never understand. The last time we were not home consecutively both kids fell ill. Only to bounce back to full health within hours of both of us being home.

In old Indian movies a life sentence used to be shown as a 14 year incarceration. I kid myself that its just a life sentence I have to cross for no crime of mine. My Shawshank redemption.


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## imtamnew

Turnera, thanks for that video.

I sat down and she left the room still screaming and shouting. 
She was expecting me to come behind her. But I no longer do that.
We were not in the same room.

That video is so close to what my wife would do. Attention seeking at its finest.


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## YellowSunfan07

Edit


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## imtamnew

She never grew up. I honestly find it easier to deal with my kids than with her.


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## imtamnew

After last nights flare up on the curtains, my wife has been like super super sweet the whole day today.

I came back from office to some sort of a grand reception. A lot of fawning over and touching me when talking and so on.
I DID NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST WAY REJECT HER.

But engaged her in normal conversation and listened and played along.

Earlier in the day she had asked me to list reasons on what I like and dislike about her.

I texted her in the afternoon that there are no such reason.
The only reason I been with her is because I love her. The only reason I want to move on is because I MUST love myself more than I love her.

She did not reply to that text. Though she asked me to pick up some pastries and stuff on the way home. SO I came in to an almost party mode at home with the kids and her.
We all sat and ate the stuff I brought and the kids were so happy about it.

One thing I strongly believe in and I may be very wrong and a fool as well.
But she loves me a lot more than I love her.


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## turnera

She became nice because you stopped acting like a Nice Guy; and women respond to strong men, not Nice Guys. 

Now, when she asks you what you like about her, she really wants to know what it is about her that that impresses you. One thing about women...they don't want to be wanted just because they cook, clean, or give sex. They have personalities, too. And feelings. And beliefs. And opinions. Women very often feel they are overlooked as humans and seen only as what women can PROVIDE. And that does NOT make us happy.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> Earlier in the day she had asked me to list reasons on what I like and dislike about her.


The version I get is "what is it about me that made you want to marry me over all your other girlfriends...?"

And im_tam, even though she mentioned it, she doesn't particularly want to hear about all the things you don't like about her, or that she has a nice a$$, or that she's pretty. 

Just sayin. 

You might want to think about it, look a little deeper and write about a dozen things down somewhere or keep them handy on your phone as a reference. Throw a few of them out there each time, because this question isn't going to be asked just once.

The things you don't like are better left for some other conversation, given in small doses and carefully worded.


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## imtamnew

I been going thru so many videos on youtube about the Nice Guy stuff. I have a feeling that my wife may also be having the same issue.

I hope I am not reflecting but when I evaluate how she would agree to change, avoid confronting issues and try to make me feel bad about stuff because "She put in so much effort".

My fight needs to be on both fronts. Not only do I have to overcome my Mr Nice Guy, but also slay the same monster eating away at my wife.


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## YellowSunfan07

I feel that any points at reconciliation at this point are a fruitless task. As is always the case both parties are not on the same page. If the accounts in this thread are to be believed and in fact does represent a balanced view, then why are you here repeatedly asking for help.

If your wife really is as described in this thread then you're both acting in ways that are dysfunctional. Because ultimately allowing yourself to be treated in this way also indicates to me that you have work to do. No one puts up with this treatment and level of mind f*ckery. To do so is tantamount to self harm.

Good luck in any case.


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> I been going thru so many videos on youtube about the Nice Guy stuff. I have a feeling that my wife may also be having the same issue.
> 
> I hope I am not reflecting but when I evaluate how she would agree to change, avoid confronting issues and try to make me feel bad about stuff because "She put in so much effort".
> 
> My fight needs to be on both fronts. Not only do I have to overcome my Mr Nice Guy, but also slay the same monster eating away at my wife.


You can't change her. You can't even make her want to change. What you can do is change yourself so that you become so irresistible that she really really wants to keep you and starts questioning herself on how to do that. 

Stop paying attention to what she does. Work on your Nice Guy crap, and do a lot of thinking about WHAT YOU NEED out of life, and if you come across instances in your marriage (or elsewhere) that do not correspond to what you want in life (respect, honesty, etc.), you enact a consequence that YOU take to remove yourself from that toxic situation. Period.

Come here with examples when you feel bad and we will show you how to do it better. Work on it enough and she will be drawn to you like a moth to a flame.


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## imtamnew

Have started my first attempts at not tolerating crap.

She woke up ill today and I helped her with getting comfortable. She was very drained and tired. No clue why.
Almost lost consciousness in the bathroom. I think it might be a diabetic issue as she has had this issue when pregnant the second time.

Anyways I took care of breakfast for everyone and also cleaned up the house. For lunch we already had adequate leftover and she prepared some. She fed my son and I fed my daughter. By this time itself I knew there was something brewing in her head. She was grumbling that she is worthless as I can take of the household with her.

As I settled to eat, she was the in the kitchen. I asked her to pass me something and she did not. Instead told me that she is not liek me to do stuff for others.

I said fine. Got it myself. She wanted me to do the dishes. I said in sometime as I just finished lunch. She started her screaming and ranting.

I went to the bathroom, changed my clothes. Am now sitting in an empty office watching a movie.
As I left the house she tried to physically block and implored me to stay. I said too late. You don't get to shout at me no more.

I don't know if I did right or wrong.
Feel guilty that I left the house. But and this is the question that keeps ringing in my head.

Would I let anyone treat me like this?
NO!

Then why do I let her do it and get away. So no more taking crap has started. I will go back home when I want toooo.
Luckily have youtube access and my office has a nice pantry.


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## turnera

You did the right thing. Explain when you get back why you left - she might need to hear it a few times to understand it - and why you will leave again. Remind her that she can control her temper with everyone else, so you expect her to control it with you. She needs to hear that; it doesn't occur to many people.

And just be consistent from now on.


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## imtamnew

Last night she initiated sex. After her orgasm, we moved on to the missionary position.

In two three minutes she is very wet and orgasming again.
While I am still doing the old in and out.
I try to change position and she asks if I am still inside her.

In the heart of the moment I tell her...
You are not that big and I am not that small.

She takes big offence that I called her vagina small.

It takes me quite a few seconds to go from wtef to are u kidding me.

I tell her that if anything I just said that she is still so young down there and it's incredible for me.

She is still angry that her orgasms are thru but mine is not.

By then I am all flaccid and no longer in the mood.

To stop feeling her guilt she tells me she will make me haver an orgasm.
But the first thing she says if she will not do anything oral.

I said leave. Go. I was not expecting oral or anything. But to make be feel bad about my body is not acceptable to me any more.
If her offer is to sit and let me mastrubate then I have no reason to do anything.

She left to sleep with her kids.

I wake to her hugging me tight and saying she is very sorry about last night and that she will have sex tonight.

She keeps on messaging me now that she will never leave me. That our kids need us.

I finally get it there no more Mr Nice guy is more about being honest to your feelings than anything else.

I know in my post there would be a lot of things I did wrong. But I am learning and learning.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> I finally get it there no more Mr Nice guy is more about being honest to your feelings than anything else.


Yes.

And you did just fine.


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## imtamnew

So morning time she is cuddling me and of course I am horny.
She is on her period.

So she suggests that maybe I should mastrubate if it's so important.

I am in two minds to leave her a couple of condoms with evidence on the bathroom later today.

That would in my opinion be a horrible thing for her self esteem and that is why I don't want to do it.

Just ranting. She knows I am pissed and I can't wait for my kids to be a little older so I can leave.

Edit: I disengaged the cuddling and left the room but my kids woke up in a few mins and we could not discuss this anymore.

Anyways I don't discuss it ask her for anything anymore.


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## Tron

Get a towel and take her. Women get horny on their period too.

If you get a hard 'no' then get up, pretend that it is totally cool (Outcome Independence or OI) and go about your business for the day.


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## turnera

im_tam said:


> I am in two minds to leave her a couple of condoms with evidence on the bathroom later today.
> 
> That would in my opinion be a horrible thing for her self esteem and that is why I don't want to do it.


First, leaving condoms is passive aggressive Nice Guy bullsh*t, and very unbecoming - and of course, doomed to fail.

Instead, just go for what you want. Women want you to take their breath away - think of the old adage about sweeping the pots and pans off the counter and taking her right there on the counter. Period schmeriod. Take a shower afterward. NO words, just take her. In a breathtaking, romantic way.

And if you don't understand what I'm talking about, go to the local bookstore, and ask for a couple romance novels and read them. They're easy reads, a few hours, and they're all the same. But they hook directly into what women secretly dream about, to be swept off their feet.


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## imtamnew

I am making a conscious effort to not be a Douch-Bag or passive aggressive. I ask myself before I do anything if I am doing this to belittle or insult her. If I feel I am doing it because I am afraid of something else. Then I do that something else instead.

So yesterday I actually did the opposite of everything else. I let her have a grand day at a salon and took care of the kids as well. She was so happy at the end of it all. She knew I was doing a lot for her and she kept on saying that she will make up for it by end of the day. She was holding my hand and kept sitting very close to me.

After the kids slept she came over and kept snuggling a lot. But since the day had been very hectic for the kids as well my son(2 years old) got very fussy and kept crying out for her.

I could sense she was very sad at leaving me and going over to him.

I am gonna need a lot of patience and a hell of a lot more self control. But I think this "THINK BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING" is working in making her get very close.

I don't think she has it in her to fake her feelings. She is too hot blooded to do anything of that sort.

Also sexual intercourse during menstruation and anal sex are the only two things forbidden in our religion. Have no plans on doing either. She also gets very sensitive during her periods and even touching her breasts is painful. So I am....hmmm...dealing with it.


And Honestly I cant thank you guys enough for helping me out and letting me rant as well.


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## turnera

Just to get you thinking outside the box, there are many other things you two can be doing other than intercourse that can be satisfying for both of you...


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## imtamnew

Well that is a little bit of a challenge.

The only thing apart from the kids that has both of us in the same page is cooking. We work very beautifully as a team and some of the stuff we cook together is awesome.

Her hobbies apart from this is fashion. By hobby I mean she likes to stay abreast with all the latest trends and designs in clothing and things like that.

I am more into travel and books.

In these things our overlap is less than a 1%.


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## turnera

Um, I was talking about bedroom time.


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## imtamnew

I am feeling so lost here.

The bedroom is where we sleep, cuddle and occasionally have sex.
Never though of it as a place for anything else.


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## turnera

This is more of what I was talking about; these things usually make a woman really happy and, if you let yourself, you can enjoy them, too:

Bedroom alternatives - AskMen

Intimacy Without Intercourse | HealthyWomen

How to Get More Intimate Without Having Sex (with Pictures)

What are some fun sexual things to do, without actually having sex? - GirlsAskGuys

Not exactly the same thing, but also interesting:
11 Non-Sexual Ways To Increase The Intimacy In Your Relationship | Thought Catalog


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## imtamnew

Well I don't know what I am doing right or how but things are changing for sure.

On Monday I get a lot of loving and my wife who was on her period still makes me get a "happy ending" 

Last night she comes over as I am preparing for my office meeting at home (teleconference) and we do a quickie. I could not finish in time...but it was good and am sure she had a good time too.
She was a lil angry that I did not complete but I was very positive about it and absolutely kept tellng her that its all fine. We have a lot of time later to complete it up.

Thanks a lot guys. I will keep you all posted. I am taking it easy and just having fun.


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## imtamnew

So I am back and need some advice / help in understanding.

I have never ever in my life been called thin. Since my early twenties my weight has been over 210 pounds.
When I got married my jeans used to be 36 inches. IN 2008 I went to 38.
Now I comfortably wear size 34.

I do have belly fat but my shoulders are wider than my waist.

I cycle about 40 kms every week. Can easily walk over 10 miles in 2 hours.
I have no diabetics or cholesterol issues. Never fall sick expect maybe a stomach upset. Very rare to be down with a fever.

My wife sometimes tries to fat shame me. Today was one such day.
She wanted to get me to agree that I need to lose weight. That I am fat.
Then she moved from my weight issues to her own. Said I should be making her feel bad about putting on weight.

She said its weird that I am comfortable with my body image.

To be really truthful I can lose about 15 kilos and get a very lean stomach. But I have no interest nor the time to invest in it.
I eat healthy and depend on my cycling and walking for health.

I did not know what or how to react to this.
Isnt health and fitness a lot more important than what a weighing scale shows.

And its not like I carry all my weight on my tummy. My thighs are by her own admission very firm and they are the ones preventing me from slipping into size 32.


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## turnera

She - like many women - hates her own looks. She wants you to fix it somehow. She's illogical. But she wants you to join in the issue.

Do you ever tell her that you like the way she looks? Women usually need that from their men.


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## Woodchuck

If I hurt my wife's feelings and never apologized, people would call me an A$$hat....It is never a good idea to hurt the feelings of a person you expect to have sex with....


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## imtamnew

Turnera,

Illogical?

She was telling me she is pissed that I don't get angry at her for having put on weight.
Well in my stupid head I see that extra weight and stretch marks and scars from child birth and I love them
She is very illogical.


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## turnera

No, just a female.


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## Tron

How are things on the home front im_tam?


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## imtamnew

People don't change. She is an LD who acts like a kid. After being married a decade all I can say is that I can either live on scraps or be a celibate.
I have chosen the latter.

The more I go down the path, strangely the more at peace I am.

She's taken my rejection to heart. Works out at a gym for the first time in her life. Takes special care of herself. Tries to always snuggle up and be closer to me.

Some switch inside me has turned off.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> She's taken my rejection to heart. Works out at a gym for the first time in her life.


No, she probably wrongly assumes that you are rejecting her because you don't find her physically attractive. 



im_tam said:


> Takes special care of herself.


Not sure what this means.



im_tam said:


> Tries to always snuggle up and be closer to me.


Sounds a lot like Copper Top. 



im_tam said:


> Some switch inside me has turned off.


It happened with BostonBruins32. Not unusual. Sad though.


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## imtamnew

I am sorry am unable to update as I was traveling.

She KNOWS I find her attractive.

My last trip earlier in January had a funny moment.
I asked her if she wanted something. She said NO.
I saw some nice stuff and sent her pics on WhatsApp. She's said no.
I come back home with stuff for kids. The next day she says I don't love her because I dont get her gifts anymore.
I could not help but start laughing. As she realized that even the clothes and sun glasses she was wearing were things I had surprised her with less than two months back.

Tron, I will reread those threads again. Maybe I can learn something new again. Thanks for your interest in my life. Appreciate it.


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## Tron

FTR, Neither one of those two threads has a happy ending.

BB32 only remains in the marriage for his young daughter.

CT, if he is to be believed, will be starting the divorce process this Summer.

Hell, your W may just be BSC.


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## john117

Tron said:


> FTR, Neither one of those two threads has a happy ending.
> 
> BB32 only remains in the marriage for his young daughter.
> 
> CT, if he is to be believed, will be starting the divorce process this Summer.
> 
> Hell, your W may just be BSC.


I feel ignored


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## Tron

john117 said:


> I feel ignored


Oops. My bad! :grin2:

Then there is of course John's nuclear option. We will all hear about it on the news when it happens. 

Just so we can be ready, when does the daughter graduate from uni?


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## john117

May 2017....


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## imtamnew

Tron said:


> FTR, Neither one of those two threads has a happy ending.
> 
> BB32 only remains in the marriage for his young daughter.
> 
> CT, if he is to be believed, will be starting the divorce process this Summer.
> 
> Hell, your W may just be BSC.



I have thought very long and hard about this.
I remain in my marriage for my kids and my wife.

What is BSC?


Thanks again.

And John, your thread has been very helpful in my journey as well. So thanks a lot for having shared it so clearly.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> What is BSC?


Bat $hit Crazy


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## imtamnew

That seriously made me laugh out.

I don't think of my wife as a BSC. For a long time I thought she was BPD. When we both went for IC, her counselor told me that while there is a bit of narcissism in her...its not the crazy kind. My wife has always lived a semi-sheltered life. Very emotionally unavailable father. A clueless mother who to follows every thing her husband says.

I sometimes feel sad for my wife who is otherwise a very intelligent woman get so lost in understanding what a marriage is meant to be. But then again she has never ever seen any semblance of a loving wedded life.

Her parents and her sisters all have a horrible married life.
Mother is completely subservient to the Father.
Two sisters on the brink of divorce. Both don't live with their husbands. One has a divorce in progress. The other is just dragging on something that has no respect or love or anything at all.
One sister and her husband, while living together have not much in common and lead almost separate lives.


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## john117

Role models are critical. Without them we do not build healthy expectations of marriage and things can get quite difficult.

It's one of the many things to watch out for during dating but of course few people do it.


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## Tron

john117 said:


> Role models are critical. Without them we do not build healthy expectations of marriage and things can get quite difficult.
> 
> It's one of the many things to watch out for during dating but of course few people do it.


Ain't that the truth!

im_tam, is there any way to talk your W into some counseling?


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## imtamnew

I have told her that we will never be intimate unless we go thru therapy. 

Told that in August last year. Have not initiated sex since then. She tried. I rejected any efforts to make me have intercourse.
I did make her orgasm.

But said and meant it that I don't want anything from her.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> I have told her that we will never be intimate unless we go thru therapy.
> 
> Told that in August last year. Have not initiated sex since then. She tried. I rejected any efforts to make me have intercourse.
> I did make her orgasm.
> 
> But said and meant it that I don't want anything from her.


If you do everything else, give her orgasms etc. then you are being intimate with her, so what's the point of not having intercourse? She continues to have her needs met and you continue to flounder around getting...nothing. 

Stop accommodating her. If this is the path you have chosen then she needs to feel the pain of your rejection. Otherwise she has no motivation to change and you are self-flagillating yourself. 

The same consistent message delivered over and over..."no counseling, no intimacy!" And follow through. 

My $0.02.


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## imtamnew

I must do this. It's hard but it must be done.


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## Tron

im_tam said:


> I must do this. It's hard but it must be done.


I venture that it will be one of the most difficult things you ever do.


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## imtamnew

Life goes on.


Kinda confused on one thing. I surprised my wife with a new phone. It's much smaller than what she had and fits her palm perfectly.
In fact thatwas the reason I chose it for her.

She of course loves it and it's very happy.

She met her sister for lunch today. Was showing off the new expensive phone. Her sister knows it's a gift from me to her.
In her excitement my wife was telling her how she (my wife) selected this phone because of the size being perfect.

When alone I asked my wife why she said that and she has no recollection of this at all.
But then she said she got carried away.
I just let it go saying it was cute that she felt that she had chosen it herself as that means my choice was good.

Any thoughts on what this means....
Beats me.

For the record my wife had said first that it was a gift so there was no point of saying otherwise later...


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## turnera

Just an ego thing. She wanted her sister to admire her for her craftiness rather than for having a husband who did good.


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## imtamnew

I asked again why she did that.

Her sister has the same phone as my wife's old one. So my wife was making this up as a way to sell this phone to her. So she can also buy the same model as it's perfect.

I don't buy this reason.
I think my wife does this because she did not want her sister feel bad that her husband does not do things like this.
Her sister husband is not a good gifter and so for a few years now, my sister in law bus her gifts on her own and bills then to him. I mean things like birthday gifts etc.


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## turnera

Yeah, it could be that, too. Women are very sensitive usually to not upstaging someone else.


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## imtamnew

I come back to you guys for some guidance and advice...again. 

For the past few weeks my wife has been trying to engage me into why we don't have sex. These conversations go on a predictable script.
She will ask me why I don't try to have sex even when my body is ready and I am visibly aroused.
I have told her that sex with her has no guarantee that I will be satisfied. That it only ends up making me feel worse than before. That unless I am feeling a strong possibility that my orgasm matter to her...I will not do it.

Then she will get a little angry and ask if it means I will not have sex with anyone or not have sex with her.
I remind her that as a committed monogamist this is a pointless argument. That since the only person I can have sex with, is her and since I have decided to not have sex with her...it means that I will most probably be celibate for a long long time.

I am surprised at my own level of dissociation with arousal. While everything in my body is ready...my mind/heart/ego are a wall I bang into.
Unless I see the change I want, I am not going to do anything for my sexual gratification with her.


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## turnera

That's the right path to be on at this point. Maybe, just maybe, it will start to sink in that SHE is the problem.


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## imtamnew

But frankly its not an easy path. But the fact that she is pushing this topic on a very frequent basis, like at least once a day, is a good sign.

I really hope that someday she has that epiphany that all I am asking for is a relationship that is more equal in terms of affection.


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## turnera

We teach people how to respect us. So if you continue to respect yourself and enact boundaries/consequences, she'll have no choice but to start learning to respect you, too.


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