# Sexual assault against men



## Cletus

This is a nod to Anon Pink who asked a question in another thread that probably deserves its own title.

Any men out there who feel that they were sexually assaulted by a woman? I'm referring to the modern definition that we typically apply (mostly) to women today - sex, touching, rape, physical harm, any unwanted sexual act where you were coerced into the act or were too incapacitated to consent.

I'll go first. 

First year of college, a friend and I have an apartment together. I'm in school full time, so I work as the assistant manager of a local fast food restaurant at night. Roommate throws a party one weekend, and lots of folks from the restaurant show. I'm not a particularly heavy drinker, but this night I have a once-in-a-lifetime experience.

I don't really remember the party, but I remember getting so loaded that a bunch of the night is in black-out land. A large chunk of time is completely missing. What I remember was the exact moment my consciousness returned - it was like someone snapped on a light bulb. No fuzzy slow crawl out of a dark pit - just BAM!, and I'm right in the middle of the sex act with one of my coworkers, fully aware of my surroundings. 

Now to be clear, I don't remember how we got there, but I do know that I wasn't even remotely interested in this girl intellectually, sexually, or casually. We were on good terms, and I was aware that she had at least some interest in me, but it was absolutely not reciprocated. We weren't even friends, just acquaintances. So my assumption is that she took the opportunity to take advantage of my profoundly drunken state, but I never actually asked any witnesses what happened.

Anyway, when I came too, I was pretty amazed. I put an end to our copulation immediately, trying to be tactful, all the while thinking "How in the hell did I wind up here?".

Embarrassment was what I felt more than anything. I had to work with this girl the next day, so I took the coward's way out. I was well and truly hung over, and since I had blacked out for at least part of the night, I pretended to not remember any of it. I overheard her talking with a friend in whispers, but she never confronted me about it, I never brought it up, and it faded into history. 

It left no permanent damage, but I think that was the last time I over-imbibed to the point of blacking out. I think by today's standards this would count as a sexual assault, even if I never viewed it in those terms.


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## Wolf1974

I have either been blessed or cursed with the ability to get it up no matter how drunk I am. Seriously my little guy will stand tall even if I can't physically stand.

One night years ago at my then GF house I passed out in the bed and she had sex with me. I found out about it the next morning as she was giggling. I was pissed. Not because of the violation but because she didn't use a condom and at the time I wasn't cut so I was concerned. 

Was not cool at all but yes by definition I was assaulted I guess


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## Anon Pink

I bet there are other men, probably a lot, who have had a similar experience. Maybe the came to and thought "awesome! Gonna hafta get blind drunk again!" Or maybe they hung their head and admitted to the coyote rule of drinking too much.

I'm glad this experience never made you feel ashamed, or disgusted. I'm glad it didn't send you into a tail spin of self loathing mixed with rage. I'm glad you came out of this experience not really any worse for the wear. I'm not saying that as a means of distinguishing the relativity of how we view whatever experiences we have.

I truly am glad because there is another male TAMer who had a similar experience, without the booze, but felt violated. He had a double whammy because he felt violated and used and battered but being a man he had no support, no frame of reference on how to cope. Maybe he will post here too?

There are several male TAMer who have sexual assault type experiences. Men are even less willing to discuss it than women.

I hope they will though. 

Brave brave Cletus!


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## SimplyAmorous

To Cletus....Good thing she wasn't trying to get pregnant ...then you'd be responsible for it....or would you?.... Do they have laws in place for this?


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## Ripper

SimplyAmorous said:


> To Cletus....Good thing she wasn't trying to get pregnant ...then you'd be responsible for it....or would you?.... Do they have laws in place for this?


Nope, he would have been on the hook. They even make male statutory rape victims pay up. The patriarchy!!

Statutory rape victim forced to pay child support


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## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> Nope, he would have been on the hook. They even make male statutory rape victims pay up. The patriarchy!!
> 
> Statutory rape victim forced to pay child support


Every time I read about this case I get more angry about it.

Why does this woman even have the child? She should not be raising any child at all. Shoot she should be in prison.

My understanding is that he's being required to pay child support all the way back to when this child was born. I think he was 14 at that time. 

He sounds like a good guy. He says he does not mind paying current child support and he wants a relationship with his daughter. Maybe he should have custody.


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## ConanHub

I was mainly assaulted as a child. A couple were women but I was more confused and sick feeling from them. Men were the primary culprits. I felt degraded, terrified, seriously hurt and....rage...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> I have either been blessed or cursed with the ability to get it up no matter how drunk I am. Seriously my little guy will stand tall even if I can't physically stand.
> 
> One night years ago at my then GF house I passed out in the bed and she had sex with me. I found out about it the next morning as she was giggling. I was pissed. Not because of the violation but because she didn't use a condom and at the time I wasn't cut so I was concerned.
> 
> Was not cool at all but yes by definition I was assaulted I guess


How drunk was she?


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Every time I read about this case I get more angry about it.
> 
> Why does this woman even have the child? She should not be raising any child at all. Shoot she should be in prison.
> 
> My understanding is that he's being required to pay child support all the way back to when this child was born. I think he was 14 at that time.
> 
> He sounds like a good guy. He says he does not mind paying current child support and he wants a relationship with his daughter. Maybe he should have custody.


Exactly! Making the victim pay the rapist. I think she just needs dropped in a pit somewhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lenzi

Cletus said:


> that was the last time I over-imbibed to the point of blacking out. I think by today's standards this would count as a sexual assault, even if I never viewed it in those terms.


All you know is you got piss drunk and had sex with a chick you weren't attracted to. You have no memory of the events immediately preceding the act, you don't mention anything about being drugged, and I don't think you've got anything to go on when you suggest you were assaulted.


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## NobodySpecial

lenzi said:


> All you know is you got piss drunk and had sex with a chick you weren't attracted to. You have no memory of the events immediately preceding the act, you don't mention anything about being drugged, and I don't think you've got anything to go on when you suggest you were assaulted.


I disagree 550%. Any woman in that situation would have a rightful claim to rape. I knew a guy who was convicted of this exact thing when I was a younger lass. And rightly so.


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> Exactly! Making the victim pay the rapist. I think she just needs dropped in a pit somewhere.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The other side of this coin happens to women as well. 

I've read of cases in which the rapist sued for partial custody and /or visitation. And they often win. I'm talking about guys who violently raped the woman and were convicted of the rape.

Why on earth would any court give a rapist custody and/or visitation with a child they fathered as the result of a rape?


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## lenzi

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree 550%.


How is that possible?

You can either agree or disagree, which means you either agree 100% or you disagree 100%.

I suppose there are situations where you could agree with certain limitations or under certain conditions, but at any rate the total agreement or disagreement would be something less than 100%, never more.


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## EleGirl

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree 550%. Any woman in that situation would have a rightful claim to rape. I knew a guy who was convicted of this exact thing when I was a younger lass. And rightly so.


So what happens when they are both so drunk that they have no idea what they are doing. This happens. 

Inability to consent when drunk holds for both men and women. With no witnesses and neither knowing what happened, they both raped each other. Should they both be prosecuted?


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## lenzi

EleGirl said:


> So what happens when they are both so drunk that they have no idea what they are doing. This happens.
> 
> Inability to consent when drunk holds for both men and women. With no witnesses and neither knowing what happened, they both raped each other. Should they both be prosecuted?


Yes and they should share a cell.


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## NobodySpecial

lenzi said:


> How is that possible?
> 
> You can either agree or disagree, which means you either agree 100% or you disagree 100%.
> 
> I suppose there are situations where you could agree with certain limitations or under certain conditions, but at any rate the total agreement or disagreement would be something less than 100%, never more.


Hey! I am usually the robot! No taking my job.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> The other side of this coin happens to women as well.
> 
> I've read of cases in which the rapist sued for partial custody and /or visitation. And they often win. I'm talking about guys who violently raped the woman and were convicted of the rape.
> 
> Why on earth would any court give a rapist custody and/or visitation with a child they fathered as the result of a rape?


No way. I would like to see those cases.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

lenzi said:


> All you know is you got piss drunk and had sex with a chick you weren't attracted to. You have no memory of the events immediately preceding the act, you don't mention anything about being drugged, and I don't think you've got anything to go on when you suggest you were assaulted.


You're right, I don't know. Which is why I think it would have been silly to try to assign some sort of rape status to either one of us. How about instead of "we raped each other" we say no lo contendre, "I raped myself"?

Now were I a woman in this situation, would your opinion be different or the same?


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## lenzi

Cletus said:


> You're right, I don't know. Which is why I think it would have been silly to try to assign some sort of rape status to either one of us. How about instead of "we raped each other" we say no lo contendre, "I raped myself"?
> 
> Now were I a woman in this situation, would your opinion be different or the same?


If a woman said "I got so drunk that I can't remember anything except that I woke up and he was f&*king me and I told him to stop and he did" I'd assign exactly 50% of the responsibility of the act to her and I'd try to get her number.


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## Fozzy

3850 men in the US military victims of penetrative sexual assault last year.

Pentagon: Sexual assault claims drop among military women - Washington Times


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## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> How drunk was she?


Between tipsy and drunk I would guess why do you ask?


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## Faithful Wife

A good friend of mine had a long term relationship with a man whose mother had raped him throughout his childhood. They eventually broke up because the damage to him was too great, he couldn't have any romantic relationship with anyone.

Here's another incest story:

http://goodmenproject.com/on-rape-a...good-life-what-my-sister-did-surviving-inces/


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## Faithful Wife

Here's a cool documentary trailer, the project is about male victims of domestic and sexual abuse:

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/what-happens-to-men-affects-women-wcz/

And this is the filmmaker's blog about the same topic:

https://forcedintosilence.wordpress.com/


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## EleGirl

Wolf1974 said:


> Between tipsy and drunk I would guess why do you ask?


I'm just confused about situations when both people are dunk... so I was wondering.


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## EleGirl

There is a more resent study in which American men report being raped and/or sexually assault at about the same rate as women are. 

They say that the men say that about 60% of the assailants are men, and about 40% are women. 

But few men will talk about it, much less say report the incidents.


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## Faithful Wife

I'm positive those numbers are correct, Ele. I have always figured the cases were about the same for each gender, and I have always known women will abuse power and can and do rape.

The reality of prison is a clear example. Everyone seems to know that men in prison will rape each other. (Still not saying that joking about it is good, but everyone knows it happens and it does happen). But people don't point out the other obvious side to that...women in prison rape each other, too.

Rape is a human problem. It is in us. I don't care to place it all on one gender's head, why would we do that? I argue repeatedly that women are just as sexual as men are. I also believe women are just as violent as men are and that they rape as much as men do (including sexual assault, sex-without-consent, abuse of power, sex while partner is drugged or drunk, and all the murky boundaries stuff we've discussed in other threads).


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## 2ntnuf

I was asleep at about 8:30 pm. I was tired. I worked an odd shift and was feeling stressed about my second marriage, work and other things. I don't remember exactly what, but I was exhausted. The kind where, when you lie down, you are asleep shortly after your head hits the pillow. At the time, I didn't wear any sleepwear. TMI? Sorry, I think it will help to understand. Then wife came home from work around 9:15 pm? I think. Anyway, I was awakened when she came into the bedroom and yanked the covers off me. I was startled and not yet coherent as she climbed on top of my legs at or near the knees, pressing them down and backward into the soft pillow mattress. It hurt terribly and I let out a loud groan and partially sat up. I could not get up completely because her weight was holding me down. I lied back quickly and told her to get off. She said, "No". She put her mouth down there and worked on me. I could not stand the pain. I told her again to get off. She would not stop. I was nearly in tears, but tightly closed my eyes. I thought of ways to get her off me. I thought I would have to hit her in the head and then move quickly to get away. I could not do that. She kept going and even got mad when I could not get it up as quickly as she wanted. I pushed out the pain shooting through my knees and concentrated on what she was doing. I forced myself to get there and over the edge. She got up and walked to the bathroom. I rolled onto my right side and brought my knees up toward my stomach, shaking and sobbing. I heard the bathroom door open and she came into the room. With tears streaming down my face, I stopped shaking the bed and crying almost immediately. I eventually fell asleep from exhaustion. Not fun. I told no one until some time after she left.


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## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> A good friend of mine had a long term relationship with a man whose mother had raped him throughout his childhood. They eventually broke up because the damage to him was too great, he couldn't have any romantic relationship with anyone.
> 
> Here's another incest story:
> 
> What My Sister Did: Surviving Incest -


^^see this is the thing, so many men think rape of men in most cases equates to a woman getting him drunk and taking advantage of the situation. While this obviously DOES happen, it's important to note that a lot of male rape is violent and very damaging.


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## Fozzy

I think there's probably a good measurable amount of female/female rape as well. My wife was sexually attacked by a female once. I don't believe it went too far, but it makes me wonder how often that happens in the bi/lesbian community.


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> I was asleep at about 8:30 pm. I was tired. I worked an odd shift and was feeling stressed about my second marriage, work and other things. I don't remember exactly what, but I was exhausted. The kind where, when you lie down, you are asleep shortly after your head hits the pillow. At the time, I didn't wear any sleepwear. TMI? Sorry, I think it will help to understand. Then wife came home from work around 9:15 pm? I think. Anyway, I was awakened when she came into the bedroom and yanked the covers off me. I was startled and not yet coherent as she climbed on top of my legs at or near the knees, pressing them down and backward into the soft pillow mattress. It hurt terribly and I let out a loud groan and partially sat up. I could not get up completely because her weight was holding me down. I lied back quickly and told her to get off. She said, "No". She put her mouth down there and worked on me. I could not stand the pain. I told her again to get off. She would not stop. I was nearly in tears, but tightly closed my eyes. I thought of ways to get her off me. I thought I would have to hit her in the head and then move quickly to get away. I could not do that. She kept going and even got mad when I could not get it up as quickly as she wanted. I pushed out the pain shooting through my knees and concentrated on what she was doing. I forced myself to get there and over the edge. She got up and walked to the bathroom. I rolled onto my right side and brought my knees up toward my stomach, shaking and sobbing. I heard the bathroom door open and she came into the room. With tears streaming down my face, I stopped shaking the bed and crying almost immediately. I eventually fell asleep from exhaustion. Not fun. I told no one until some time after she left.


Yikes! that was cruel.

Did you make it clear to her that she was hurting you?

Was she physically abusive in other ways?


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## Cletus

I also had a dude try to give me a foot rub at a party once. I felt bad for him when my friend tossed him out the door. Doesn't qualify as sexual assault, but I'm pretty sure my eyes got REALLY wide.


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## 2ntnuf

EleGirl said:


> Yikes! that was cruel.
> 
> Did you make it clear to her that she was hurting you?
> 
> Was she physically abusive in other ways?


I said in a medium loud voice, "You're hurting my knees"!

No, not that I remember. There were a couple times I got hurt when we were having sex. The others seemed like she was just too excited or something and didn't realize what she was doing.

ETA: She was 5'7" and around 200 lbs. She wasn't obese, but she was a bigger woman. I guess like some of those plus size models. Not a lot of obvious fat hanging, just a little bigger.


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## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> I said in a medium loud voice, "You're hurting my knees"!
> 
> No, not that I remember. There were a couple times I got hurt when we were having sex. The others seemed like she was just too excited or something and didn't realize what she was doing.


Well that's a clear statement. Sounds pretty sadistic.


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## Faithful Wife

Here's an example of forced-to-penetrate without consent type rape.

A friend of mine had been chasing a guy. He wasn't that into her but she wouldn't stop chasing him. He finally went out with her a few times, and had sex with her one of those times. Then he never called her again.

After a few weeks she stalked him at his job and convinced him to go for a ride with her after he got off work. He didn't want to, but she promised him dinner or something like that.

This friend is highly sexual and lacks boundaries. She also used to believe such nonsense as "all guys want sex all the time with anyone" (she learned after this incident and others that this is not the case). So in her mind, once she got him in the car, he would enthusiastically engage in sex with her (that's all she was after).

So he finally agreed and she took him for a drive after work. 

The next day I asked "so what happened?"

She said "Ugh...we went for a drive and had sex".

I asked "how was it?"

She said "Horrible...I basically force f*cked him".

I knew what this meant was that he totally didn't want to have sex with her but she pushed it and pushed it and somehow got it and then of course the sex was horrible, because ew, who wants to f*ck someone who is scrambling to get away from you.

She never saw or heard from him again, and she did realized she raped him. She also began to learn from that point forward that she had many faulty assumptions about men and sex. This was quite awhile ago before we had the help of the information that is available now. But still, she completely understood that she essentially raped him.

If he had pressed charges (and these days, he might have, and if he really felt he didn't give consent he SHOULD have) she would have been found guilty for sure.


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## ConanHub

I believe anyone who has some advantage over someone can rape them.

I only remember one close call, from a female, after reaching adolescence. Note: I became extremely physically powerful at adolescence and started puberty at 10. It was impossible to force me past a point.

I was 14 or 15 and asleep. I woke up with a woman with her hand on my penis trying to get me hard. She was a friend of my mother. She had snuck into my bedroom in the middle of the night.

I sat up and said her name like a question. She wanted to give me oral sex and said she was really good at it. I stopped her and told her friends did not do this. She seemed a little sad and surprised. She told me no one had ever turned her down before.

I have no memory of unwanted female attention after that instance.


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## EleGirl

Here is something that happened that has always confused me.

I was in a serious relationship with a guy in my late 20’s. We were semi living together. One night I woke up t him on top of me having full out sex. My reaction was that this was good and joined him. 

Now keep in mind that his is a 6’4” big guy. I’m 5’3”.

Suddenly he startled and jumped up saying something like “what are you doing?” Now I’ve heard of “sleep walking”, but “sleep sex”. 

I told what do you mean me? I woke up with you going at it full force. Well he was convinced that I was having sex with him in his sleep. Now how on earth I could have picked up a 6’4” big guy and done this is beyond me. But he was so convinced that I had done this. He was really upset. He ended the relationship over this. I was very upset that he flat out did not believe what happened.

This is shows how confusing some of this can get.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Here is something that happened that has always confused me.
> 
> I was in a serious relationship with a guy in my late 20’s. We were semi living together. One night I woke up t him on top of me having full out sex. My reaction was that this was good and joined him.
> 
> Now keep in mind that his is a 6’4” big guy. I’m 5’3”.
> 
> Suddenly he startled and jumped up saying something like “what are you doing?” Now I’ve heard of “sleep walking”, but “sleep sex”.
> 
> I told what do you mean me? I woke up with you going at it full force. Well he was convinced that I was having sex with him in his sleep. Now how on earth I could have picked up a 6’4” big guy and done this is beyond me. But he was so convinced that I had done this. He was really upset. He ended the relationship over this. I was very upset that he flat out did not believe what happened.
> 
> This is shows how confusing some of this can get.


Just weird? Too bad. Sounds like some mental issue. Possible CSA?

I have full on initiated, great foreplay and then penetration while asleep and woke fully up towards the mid point. We both loved it however, it appears I am significantly better at foreplay while asleep.


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## tacoma

-Woke up 4:00AM drunk and dazed in my own bed with my best friends wife going down on me.
Actually this has happened numerous times with a few women, the whole sleeping/molestation thing.
-15-18 years old most of my lovers were 10-15 years older than me (Statutory?)Definite power imbalance in all those relationships.
-I've had complete strangers grinding me in clubs, grabbing.

None of this stuff particularly bothered me but it's interesting to think of reversing the sexes in these "assaults" and imaging the outcry for the "victim".

Never been physically forced to have sex, so I can't even comprehend it. 
-


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## Anon Pink

tacoma said:


> -Woke up 4:00AM drunk and dazed in my own bed with my best friends wife going down on me.
> Actually this has happened numerous times with a few women, the whole sleeping/molestation thing.
> -15-18 years old most of my lovers were 10-15 years older than me (Statutory?)Definite power imbalance in all those relationships.
> -I've had complete strangers grinding me in clubs, grabbing.
> 
> *None of this stuff particularly bothered me* but it's interesting to think of reversing the sexes in these "assaults" and imaging the outcry for the "victim".
> 
> Never been physically forced to have sex, so I can't even comprehend it.
> -


Not to pick on you Tacoma but I think the operative word to keep in mind is 'unwanted' and maybe I'm missing your message but it doesn't seem like any of these incidences were unwanted considering it didn't bother you.

It's not like what 2NT posted. Not only did he not want what his wife was doing he was being harmed. The constraint against hurting a woman kept him shackled as surely as handcuffs, for him. 

I think 2NT was goddammed brave to post what he did. 

2NT, hope you're doing okay today!


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## 2ntnuf

I'm okay. I think I understand why it happened and I don't wish her harm because of it. I just hope she realizes it was wrong and it affected how I now feel about things. Every bad thing that happens messes with a person's head. 

The other two things I remember were not nice either. The one I posted before with the finger thing, was after this incident and I wonder now if there was correlation and why she didn't talk about what she wanted to try first. 

The other was just a cowgirl that went awry when she thought I was an actual mechanical bull or something. You can only slide around so much and then it can come out and hit a part on a woman that doesn't move so well. Pubic bone? 

I just remembered another that dealt with a fantasy of mine. I was almost suffocated. I mentioned this before it was attempted, but I was let down. She wondered why I didn't want to go there again, for a while, even in a male dominant position. 

Never really understood, but it may have been her and a me, me, me thinking(her thinking of herself only)? I don't know. Glad it's over. 

Thank you Anon.


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## CuddleBug

Cletus said:


> This is a nod to Anon Pink who asked a question in another thread that probably deserves its own title.
> 
> Any men out there who feel that they were sexually assaulted by a woman? I'm referring to the modern definition that we typically apply (mostly) to women today - sex, touching, rape, physical harm, any unwanted sexual act where you were coerced into the act or were too incapacitated to consent.
> 
> I'll go first.
> 
> First year of college, a friend and I have an apartment together. I'm in school full time, so I work as the assistant manager of a local fast food restaurant at night. Roommate throws a party one weekend, and lots of folks from the restaurant show. I'm not a particularly heavy drinker, but this night I have a once-in-a-lifetime experience.
> 
> I don't really remember the party, but I remember getting so loaded that a bunch of the night is in black-out land. A large chunk of time is completely missing. What I remember was the exact moment my consciousness returned - it was like someone snapped on a light bulb. No fuzzy slow crawl out of a dark pit - just BAM!, and I'm right in the middle of the sex act with one of my coworkers, fully aware of my surroundings.
> 
> Now to be clear, I don't remember how we got there, but I do know that I wasn't even remotely interested in this girl intellectually, sexually, or casually. We were on good terms, and I was aware that she had at least some interest in me, but it was absolutely not reciprocated. We weren't even friends, just acquaintances. So my assumption is that she took the opportunity to take advantage of my profoundly drunken state, but I never actually asked any witnesses what happened.
> 
> Anyway, when I came too, I was pretty amazed. I put an end to our copulation immediately, trying to be tactful, all the while thinking "How in the hell did I wind up here?".
> 
> Embarrassment was what I felt more than anything. I had to work with this girl the next day, so I took the coward's way out. I was well and truly hung over, and since I had blacked out for at least part of the night, I pretended to not remember any of it. I overheard her talking with a friend in whispers, but she never confronted me about it, I never brought it up, and it faded into history.
> 
> It left no permanent damage, but I think that was the last time I over-imbibed to the point of blacking out. I think by today's standards this would count as a sexual assault, even if I never viewed it in those terms.



If I was single and this happened to me.......awesome. 

If a woman is interested in me, wants sex at a party.......i'm single......hmmmmmmm

I would love it if the ladies were all over me.......paradise. That's just me.:smthumbup:

I remember on a few occasions, bars, two young women dancing together, motioning me to dance with them.........if I was only 20 today.......


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## As'laDain

male on male sexual assault is too common in the military... 
but not always viewed as assault by the person assaulted.

its funny how we give ourselves double standards without even thinking about it. if a man takes his genitals out and places them on a womans face while she is sleeping, there is no question about what to call it.

but, when men do it to each other in basic training, it usually just ends in a fight and nobody thinks to press charges for sexual assault.


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## larry.gray

EleGirl said:


> I'm just confused about situations when both people are dunk... so I was wondering.


Morally, they are equally culpable.

The reality of the legal system is that if she presses charges, he most likely goes to jail. If the reverse was true, she doesn't.


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## Broken at 20

Something I wanted to clear up. 

Women, today in the US, can't rape a man. Without assistance (in the form of a sex toy for example)
That is why all those cases about female teachers sleeping with male students aren't charged with rape. Or statutory rape. 

Current definition of rape to the US government is:
“Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or
anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without
the consent of the victim.”


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## ocotillo

Broken at 20 said:


> Something I wanted to clear up.


With deep respect, the crime of statutory rape is not defined only at the Federal level.

It is also defined on a state by state basis in each state's criminal code. Unless the crime has been committed across state lines, this is what matters. 

In my state (AZ) it is defined thus:

"A person commits sexual conduct with a minor by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person who is under eighteen years of age." (ARS 13-1405)​
For a woman, simply fellating a minor is statutory rape.


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## southbound

CuddleBug said:


> If I was single and this happened to me.......awesome.
> 
> If a woman is interested in me, wants sex at a party.......i'm single......hmmmmmmm
> 
> I would love it if the ladies were all over me.......paradise. That's just me.:smthumbup:


I'm a conservative guy, I'm probably pushing a Mr. Rogers status, but I've heard guys discuss this before, and i will have to say that under the right situation, a guy wouldn't care.

I heard a guy say once: Suppose a guy is an adult and physically fit, and he has a first date with a hot woman. When he goes to her apartment, 6 other women overpower and tie him up. Let's just say they take turns giving him a hand job, nothing more, and release him about an hour later. He said he didn't know too may men who would have nightmares over that. Although it seems strange, I didn't really have a counter argument for him.


----------



## ConanHub

southbound said:


> I'm a conservative guy, I'm probably pushing a Mr. Rogers status, but I've heard guys discuss this before, and i will have to say that under the right situation, a guy wouldn't care.
> 
> I heard a guy say once: Suppose a guy is an adult and physically fit, and he has a first date with a hot woman. When he goes to her apartment, 6 other women overpower and tie him up. Let's just say they take turns giving him a hand job, nothing more, and release him about an hour later. He said he didn't know too may men who would have nightmares over that. Although it seems strange, I didn't really have a counter argument for him.


It was unexpected but not unwanted.

Now. Same scenario except when the hot woman gets you back to her apartment, a bunch of rough smelly women tackle you tie you up and let Rosanne Bar, at her heaviest, slurp and slobber all over you while the others cheer her on and help occasionally also doing things that don't feel good or even hurt you.

The guy you mentioned was talking about a fantasy he might enjoy. Maybe a lot of men might enjoy.

There are women with fantasies like that as well, where nothing really bad happens and a certain man or many men, do things to them that are actually pleasurable.


----------



## EleGirl

southbound said:


> I'm a conservative guy, I'm probably pushing a Mr. Rogers status, but I've heard guys discuss this before, and i will have to say that under the right situation, a guy wouldn't care.
> 
> I heard a guy say once: Suppose a guy is an adult and physically fit, and he has a first date with a hot woman. When he goes to her apartment, 6 other women overpower and tie him up. Let's just say they take turns giving him a hand job, nothing more, and release him about an hour later. He said he didn't know too may men who would have nightmares over that. Although it seems strange, I didn't really have a counter argument for him.


I can of course only answer from my own thought process....

To me it's not the 6 women giving him hand jobs that is the issue (if he's enjoying the hand jobs).

It's being tied up. If anyone where to ever tie me up, I would go into a panic. So what if for the moment something pleasurable was going on ... what comes next. Why the need to tie you up? 

I am sure that there are men who would have the same reaction.


----------



## larry.gray

Broken at 20 said:


> Something I wanted to clear up.
> 
> Women, today in the US, can't rape a man. Without assistance (in the form of a sex toy for example)
> That is why all those cases about female teachers sleeping with male students aren't charged with rape. Or statutory rape.
> 
> Current definition of rape to the US government is:
> “Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or
> anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without
> the consent of the victim.”


I think you fail to understand the structure of the US legal system.

Each state has its own laws on rape. Nearly all rapes are prosecuted by the state. So when trying to talk about US rape laws, you're talking about 50 states and 7 protectorates with 57 sets of laws.

The federal laws on rape are very narrow. The biggest applicability is the uniform military code of justice. It only applies to members of the military. The federal system can prosecute under state laws if the crime happened on federal property - quite common if the case was on a military installation and the perp was a civilian. The other example is if the accused is a federal employee on the job.

The definition you're talking about is what the FBI uses for uniform crime reporting. Under the FBI tracking of crime, forceable intercourse isn't recorded as rape when the victim is a man.

That's not the case in nearly every state. Most states, including my own state makes no distinction in the gender. Women can and are incarcerated for rape. In my state only PIV is rape, regardless of gender. If it's not PIV, they can be prosecuted for unlawful sexual penetration, with the same punishment - again, regardless of gender.


----------



## Anon Pink

ocotillo said:


> With deep respect, the crime of statutory rape is not defined only at the Federal level.
> 
> It is also defined on a state by state basis in each state's criminal code. Unless the crime has been committed across state lines, this is what matters.
> 
> In my state (AZ) it is defined thus:
> 
> "A person commits sexual conduct with a minor by intentionally or knowingly engaging in sexual intercourse or oral sexual contact with any person who is under eighteen years of age." (ARS 13-1405)​
> *For a woman, simply fellating a minor is statutory rape.*


It's also felony sexual child abuse, and/or continuous child sexual abuse.


----------



## larry.gray

ConanHub said:


> It was unexpected but not unwanted.
> 
> Now. Same scenario except when the hot woman gets you back to her apartment, a bunch of rough smelly women tackle you tie you up and let Rosanne Bar, at her heaviest, slurp and slobber all over you while the others cheer her on and help occasionally also doing things that don't feel good or even hurt you.


Many other scenarios you could throw in - not only is she physically repugnant, she has herpies... and sits on his face.

Now you're getting closer to what many women go through in rape. Something they really don't want to do and is done against their will. Conan's description is also closer to reality. A beautiful woman (or women) are less likely to need to do this because they'd have no problem getting slvtty men to willingly do it.


----------



## larry.gray

Anon Pink said:


> It's also felony sexual child abuse, and/or continuous child sexual abuse.


This too is open to 57 versions of interpretations, with 57 variations on what crime is named. As an example, my state doesn't recognize statutory rape. It's the same crime if the victim is underage or if force is used.

I don't know if Idaho has fixed it yet, but for a dang long time sex abuse of adolescent boys by grown women wasn't illegal. The exceptions are rare though, with most states being gender neutral.


----------



## southbound

EleGirl said:


> I can of course only answer from my own thought process....
> 
> To me it's not the 6 women giving him hand jobs that is the issue (if he's enjoying the hand jobs).
> 
> It's being tied up. If anyone where to ever tie me up, I would go into a panic. So what if for the moment something pleasurable was going on ... what comes next. Why the need to tie you up?
> 
> I am sure that there are men who would have the same reaction.


I don't know why he threw in the "tied up" part, just part of his scenario I suppose. I'm sure that "during" this, a guy would no doubt be nervous about what was going to happen next. But let's say hand jobs was all he got, and no physical harm was caused at all, he would probably just breathe a sigh of relief and go on once it was over.


----------



## ConanHub

southbound said:


> I don't know why he threw in the "tied up" part, just part of his scenario I suppose. I'm sure that "during" this, a guy would no doubt be nervous about what was going to happen next. But let's say hand jobs was all he got, and no physical harm was caused at all, he would probably just breathe a sigh of relief and go on once it was over.


If a scenario like what I and Larry said happened to me, I would be sick, suicidal and homicidal afterwards.

Being forced is being forced. Something unwanted is traumatic to be forced through.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> If a scenario like what I and Larry said happened to me, I would be sick, suicidal and homicidal afterwards.
> 
> Being forced is being forced. Something unwanted is traumatic to be forced through.


This is my point. I would react the same way, I think most people would. It's not a game.. someone has taken your free will and ability to protect yourself away.


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> This is my point. I would react the same way, I think most people would. It's not a game.. someone has taken your free will and ability to protect yourself away.


I really shouldn't be too upset that guys like the one that thought up that scenario are out there in numbers. It means they have not had something happen to them and that is good.

No one can talk like that if they actually have been forced or seen someone they loved forced.


----------



## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I really shouldn't be too upset that guys like the one that thought up that scenario are out there in numbers. It means they have not had something happen to them and that is good.
> 
> No one can talk like that if they actually have been forced or seen someone they loved forced.


You are right. For most people they have to experience the loss of control over what happens to them before they realize what it means.


----------



## Faithful Wife

As'laDain said:


> male on male sexual assault is too common in the military...
> but not always viewed as assault by the person assaulted.
> 
> its funny how we give ourselves double standards without even thinking about it. if a man takes his genitals out and places them on a womans face while she is sleeping, there is no question about what to call it.
> 
> but, when men do it to each other in basic training, it usually just ends in a fight and *nobody thinks to press charges for sexual assault.*


This is changing. These things will continue to be reported in higher and higher numbers.

Here is an example of the same thing, just not in the military:

Kallas: The Victims In The Sayreville Football Mess Are Endless « CBS New York

These types of cases will keep rocking the news until everyone admits that this crap is going on all around us. As more people routinely report these crimes and fight back against the silence that makes them possible, this sickness will be flushed out of our institutions and systems at least. Individual crimes will always still occur probably, but we can at least make sure it isn't happening at your kid's SCHOOL or in his bunker where he is serving your country.


----------



## EleGirl

2ntnuf said:


> My knees hurt so bad. She wouldn't stop and I couldn't get there because of the pain. Do you have any idea what it is like to force yourself to enjoy something when the one you love is making you feel terrible? I can't talk about this anymore. It makes me nauseated. I didn't want to think about this that deeply. it's ****ed up. Never thought I could be made to feel that way, never. See you guys later. I feel bad for anyone who went through something lke that.


I'm so sorry you were made to endure that. it's unthinkable.


----------



## ocotillo

Anon Pink said:


> It's also felony sexual child abuse, and/or continuous child sexual abuse.


Good point. The word, "Rape" is very often not contained in the formal charge or even in the law itself anymore. "Statutory rape" is the theoretical underpinning behind all age specific sexual offenses though.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Anon Pink said:


> It's also felony sexual child abuse, and/or continuous child sexual abuse.


For Texas it is sexual assault of a child. I had a young teacher who was on an ankle monitor for having sex with two 16 year old students.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JCD

lenzi said:


> How is that possible?
> 
> You can either agree or disagree, which means you either agree 100% or you disagree 100%.
> 
> I suppose there are situations where you could agree with certain limitations or under certain conditions, but at any rate the total agreement or disagreement would be something less than 100%, never more.


This link will help identify the problem. Unfortunately, there are no support groups because they can't agree on the rules.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> So what happens when they are both so drunk that they have no idea what they are doing. This happens.
> 
> Inability to consent when drunk holds for both men and women. With no witnesses and neither knowing what happened, they both raped each other. Should they both be prosecuted?


This is the crux. A person is NOT about equality if a girl in this situation gets to prosecute but a guy is just told to suck it up or is more likely ignored.

So using the absolute strict definition of 'Affirmative Consent' YES! She should be looking at not a day less of jail time than he is or whatever discipline would be imposed on him.

So as a mental exercise, just imagine your darling daughter 'politely asked to leave' a school, being brutally investigated by a school council or the police for hours, and maybe put on a sex offenders list as a result of her getting drunk and screwing some guy she doesn't even know.

If that seems a tad...harsh...well...Ron Moody said it best.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Not to pick on you Tacoma but I think the operative word to keep in mind is 'unwanted' and maybe I'm missing your message but it doesn't seem like any of these incidences were unwanted considering it didn't bother you.
> 
> It's not like what 2NT posted. Not only did he not want what his wife was doing he was being harmed. The constraint against hurting a woman kept him shackled as surely as handcuffs, for him.
> 
> I think 2NT was goddammed brave to post what he did.
> 
> 2NT, hope you're doing okay today!


The difference is that 'unwanted sex' even if not forced, is culturally regarded as rape if it happens to a woman, and 'unwanted sex' if it happened to a man.

No one would say what happened to 2NT wasn't rape because of the force, pain and clearly stated lack of consent. Likewise in a male on female way. But it is this gray area of 'I found a drunken (gender removed) and had sex with them.' Because frankly, it seems most of these women were stone cold sober when they did this stuff. If I stated that George found a drunken girl and started licking her, what is the visceral reaction you get in your head? Mine is hardly flattering.

But that is 'wrong'...'uncomfortable'...'inappropriate' when a woman does it. It isn't called rape...which it would be if it were a man doing it to a woman.

This is not about defending a sober man who inflicts himself on a drunken passed out woman. This is about injecting clarity in what these women are doing. They are rapists.

And yes. It was brave of him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

IMO, go ahead and lock up women and girls who rape and assault and molest, too. There is no difference.


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> If I stated that George found a drunken girl and started licking her, what is the visceral reaction you get in your head? Mine is hardly flattering.
> 
> But that is 'wrong'...'uncomfortable'...'inappropriate' when a woman does it. It isn't called rape...which it would be if it were a man doing it to a woman.


Actually, I was thinking George was a golden retriever and my visceral reaction is remembering my dogs following the babies around for spit up and drool duty.

Stop putting words in people's mouths. Unwanted nonconsentual sex is wrong, no matter who the aggressor is. It is difficult to come up with a comparable term other than rape, for when the woman is the aggressor. Rape has always mean forced penetration by the rapist to the victim. It's difficult to come up with a more appropriate gender neutral term. How about sexual predation?


----------



## EleGirl

Faithful Wife said:


> IMO, go ahead and lock up women and girls who rape and assault and molest, too. There is no difference.


97% or more of rapists who are reported to the police never spend even 1 day in jail... So that's not going to happen.


----------



## Wolf1974

EleGirl said:


> 97% or more of rapists who are reported to the police never spend even 1 day in jail... So that's not going to happen.


Link?


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Stop putting words in people's mouths. Unwanted nonconsentual sex is wrong, no matter who the aggressor is. *It is difficult to come up with a comparable term other than rape, for when the woman is the aggressor*. Rape has always mean forced penetration by the rapist to the victim. It's difficult to come up with a more appropriate gender neutral term. How about sexual predation?



I would like you to please explain what you mean by 'another term' for women. Because I am not liking what you seem to be implying. What I am understanding is 'oh...if a woman does this, it is 'unwanted nonconsensual sexual contact'...but we CERTAINLY don't want to call it rape when a woman does it. So we need another term.'

I hope I am getting that wrong.

I am not putting words in anyone's mouths. Elegirl is sitting here wondering 'how...oh how do we treat a drunken couple who have sex without the ability of consent on both sides?'

I assumed that was a serious question.

And the answer is: you call the woman what you call the man. You jail the woman the way you would jail the man. Equality.

My mental exercise stands. If you are not comfortable with your daughter being tossed out of school or prosecuted because she had a drunken hook up, then we should not be comfortable doing it to boys either. 

And to be clear. I am talking about two drunk kids having at it. She does not get a pass because she's a girl. Jail them both or shut up about it. There should be no double standard.

A man having sex with a drunk or sleeping woman without consent or a woman having sex with a drunk or sleeping man without consent...that's rape. For both genders.


----------



## Faithful Wife

EleGirl said:


> 97% or more of rapists who are reported to the police never spend even 1 day in jail... So that's not going to happen.


Well I meant it in the sense that if it happens, then a man should press charges and push hard for a jail sentence, just like any victim of rape should do. JCD's point was that he thinks women would mysteriously stand behind female rapists and predators and claim they shouldn't be punished but men should. Yet I don't know any woman anywhere who wouldn't agree that *female predators and rapists* *should be punished exactly like males would*...why the hell would anyone not agree with that? :scratchhead:

I remember seeing a case once of a woman who had her young niece in her custody to babysit her...and then she drugged her and told her boyfriend to violently rape the child while she filmed it. This whole thing was so horrible. The film got out and eventually into police hands, and the child and rapist's face were easily identifiable in the film, that's how they were caught. Before the film got out, apparently no one in their family knew this had occurred, and also apparently, it was entirely her idea. The guy was apparently reluctant and remorseful (though clearly still a child rapist). She is in jail now where she should be. So is the guy. Her sentence was the same as his. For some reason I can't fathom, JCD thinks women would not be all about considering the woman in my story a straight up sexual predator and sickening criminal...but of course, no woman would excuse this sh*t.


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> I would like you to please explain what you mean by 'another term' for women. Because I am not liking what you seem to be implying. What I am understanding is 'oh...if a woman does this, it is 'unwanted nonconsensual sexual contact'...but we CERTAINLY don't want to call it rape when a woman does it. So we need another term.'
> 
> I hope I am getting that wrong.
> 
> I am not putting words in anyone's mouths. Elegirl is sitting here wondering 'how...oh how do we treat a drunken couple who have sex without the ability of consent on both sides?'
> 
> I assumed that was a serious question.
> 
> And the answer is: you call the woman what you call the man. You jail the woman the way you would jail the man. Equality.
> 
> My mental exercise stands. If you are not comfortable with your daughter being tossed out of school or prosecuted because she had a drunken hook up, then we should not be comfortable doing it to boys either.
> 
> And to be clear. I am talking about two drunk kids having at it. She does not get a pass because she's a girl. Jail them both or shut up about it. There should be no double standard.
> 
> A man having sex with a drunk or sleeping woman without consent or a woman having sex with a drunk or sleeping man without consent...that's rape. For both genders.


Allow me to put you mind at ease, you did misinterpret what I said. I am not at all saying men can't be victims of sexual force. "Rape" implies penetration. So if a man is raped he has been penetrated...anally I guess. Sexual contact without penetration is not called rape, but sexual assault, I'm 90% sure. I don't know if force fellatio is called rape, in a legal sense, or not.

Hence, a man forced to copulate a woman isn't being 'penetrated' even though he is being horribly violated.

I am not at all, in any way shape or form, discounting or invalidating the violation of a man by a woman! I'm simply saying a term used for forced penetration doesn't exactly fit is the victim isn't penetrated. Make sense?

ETA, and of course I wouldn't be comfortable if my daughter got kicked out of school for forcing someone to copulate with her or for having a drunken ONS in which the boy felt violated. I'd kick her ass!! She would be damn lucky if getting kicked out was all that happened!


----------



## larry.gray

AP - in my state it's defined as "intercourse without consent" so it is indeed rape if the perp is a woman here.

Under that definition, man on man or woman on woman isn't rape - but since the punishment for the crime matches exactly it's only sematntics..


----------



## tacoma

Anon Pink said:


> Not to pick on you Tacoma but I think the operative word to keep in mind is 'unwanted' and maybe I'm missing your message but it doesn't seem like any of these incidences were unwanted considering it didn't bother you.
> 
> It's not like what 2NT posted. Not only did he not want what his wife was doing he was being harmed. The constraint against hurting a woman kept him shackled as surely as handcuffs, for him.
> 
> I think 2NT was goddammed brave to post what he did.
> 
> 2NT, hope you're doing okay today!


I'm pretty sure I didn't want my best friends wife giving me head and if I remember correctly I immediately let her know.

In fact most of the women who did this knew it was unwanted but they were drunk, I was passed out, and y'know once it's already started what guy is going to say no?
He's just a guy, they all want it.

You seem to feel "unwanted" and "unbothered" are mutually exclusive.

The fact that I'm apparently not traumatized by an unwanted womans mouth on my genitals doesn't mean I desired it or enjoyed it or allowed her to continue.

Much bigger things in this world to worry about without allowing some crazy chick to rent space in my head over some body parts touching.

Pretty sure the tale of a 25 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl would have most complaining about control issues and exploitation regardless of whether or not the girl was "bothered" by it.

Odd how the rules change when genders change.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> Allow me to put you mind at ease, you did misinterpret what I said. I am not at all saying men can't be victims of sexual force. "Rape" implies penetration. So if a man is raped he has been penetrated...anally I guess. Sexual contact without penetration is not called rape, but sexual assault, I'm 90% sure. I don't know if force fellatio is called rape, in a legal sense, or not.
> 
> Hence, a man forced to copulate a woman isn't being 'penetrated' even though he is being horribly violated.
> 
> I am not at all, in any way shape or form, discounting or invalidating the violation of a man by a woman! I'm simply saying a term used for forced penetration doesn't exactly fit is the victim isn't penetrated. Make sense?
> 
> ETA, and of course I wouldn't be comfortable if my daughter got kicked out of school for forcing someone to copulate with her or for having a drunken ONS in which the boy felt violated. I'd kick her ass!! She would be damn lucky if getting kicked out was all that happened!


The legal definition of rape seems to be 'unwanted or nonconsensual sexual intrusion or *sexual intercourse*. So you seem to be incorrect. Link



> Rape is the commission of unlawful sexual intercourse or unlawful sexual intrusion. Rape laws in the United States have been revised over the years, and they vary from state to state.


Now, being a realist...Cletus waking up to find some strange woman screwing him does not seem as emotionally devastated as a woman waking up to find herself in the same position. Then again, I was on a Grand Jury and how women respond to rape varied quite a bit as well. One woman was not soppy and did not seem emotionally damaged. She was biting nails angry! And she was held at knife point.

I have this aversion to casting this as 'the offense against women is worse than the offense against men' which seems to be that semantic quibble of 'penetration'. Women can't penetrate. Men can.

And yet...I really want to say it is different. But as a principle of equality...I am very conflicted about this.

I think I prefer the 'unwanted sexual intercourse' instead. Yeah, it may be less emotionally devastating to a man, but it is also much RARER for a man, so however you might think it is 'unfair' it is also seldom. Consider it a sop to gender equality.

The 'intrusion aspect is if a person shoves some non-bodily item into a person sexually. So going to the UVA case, Jackie being violated by a beer bottle made the man who did it just as much a rapist as one who used a penis. It also covers a hypothetical if a woman used a 'toy' on a man.


I think many supporters of the 'affirmative consent' law are more than happy to concede that 'the law will be fair' but understand that culturally there is not a chance in hell their daughters, screwing some men when drunk, will get treated like a boy in the same position.


And 'if the man feels violated'...that isn't how that regulation reads. If a boy has sex with a girl who does NOT feel violated, the boy is just as guilty if he does not get consent if he is discovered by a third party. The same should apply equally in both cases.

And please bear in mind, I am so tedious on this point because I want to highlight the absurdity of this law. If a girl can't be put on a sexual predator watch list or bear getting tossed out of school, it should not be done to boys for the exact same offense.


----------



## EleGirl

This discussion has been 100% about sexual assault and rape of men by women.

Let's not forget that about 60% of the sexual assault and rape of men is carried out my other men. Shouldn't that be discussed as well?


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> This discussion has been 100% about sexual assault and rape of men by women.
> 
> Let's not forget that about 60% of the sexual assault and rape of men is carried out my other men. Shouldn't that be discussed as well?


Sure. Treat them like you treat men who rape women. Same sentences. Same burden of proof. 

I have no problem with harsh penalties for rapists. I only want two things.

1) that it be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law, not a university exploratory committee.

2) that the crimes are judged and punished EQUALLY for both genders. Girls don't get a slap on the wrist because they can't penetrate. Boys don't face a 'guilty until proven innocent' burden of proof.

In fact, a lot of male rape is the work of pedophiles. Since I am not sure they can be rehabilitated, I have no problems putting them away for life. Stick them on a nice island somewhere with decorative fences, mild living conditions and not a chance in hell they will ever leave or see anyone under the age of 21 ever again.

Please do not feel this is dismissive. I am horrified at the prospect of being raped by a man! However, because of how our culture is set up, there is far less 'gray' in male on male rape. I think we as a society have passed that cultural hurdle since 'Deliverance'.

So there is less to talk about with male on male rape.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> In fact, a lot of male rape is the work of pedophiles. Since I am not sure they can be rehabilitated, I have no problems putting them away for life. Stick them on a nice island somewhere with decorative fences, mild living conditions and not a chance in hell they will ever leave or see anyone under the age of 21 ever again.


paedophilia is a psychiatric disorder in which an adult or older adolescent experiences a primary or exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children, younger than the age of 12. Not all pedophiles molest children.

A lot of people who molest children are what we call child molesters, they do not are a sexual attraction to children but to adults. But when they want to sexually assault and/or rape they chose children because children readily available and easy targets.

There are different terms for those who sexually assault or rape males between the ages of 12 and 17. 

Statistics on male sexual assault and rape victims 

41% are under the age of 12 

28% are between the ages of 12 and 17 

31% are 18 and over 



JCD said:


> Please do not feel this is dismissive. I am horrified at the prospect of being raped by a man! However, because of how our culture is set up, there is far less 'gray' in male on male rape. I think we as a society have passed that cultural hurdle since 'Deliverance'.
> 
> So there is less to talk about with male on male rape.


I’m not sure why you think that there is less gray when it comes to the rape of men by men. It’s very much as gray as it is for female victims.

A college guy goes to a frat party, gets drunk and passes out or is too drunk to really know what’s going on. One more of the guys there rapes him. This is not any less gray than if the victim is a female. How is the male victim going to prove that he was not into the male on male sex?

A lot of the rape of men by men is between gay men as well. That’s just as murky as with a man rapist and a female victim. 

The vast majority of the adult male on male rape is prison rape. These numbers are not included in the above percentages and are higher than all the other male stats for sexual assault and rape of men. Most of the perpetrators of male rape in prison are the prison guards. How is any guy in prison going to prove that he did not want to have sex with the other guy? Unless he’s hurt badly, there is no way to prove it was rape and/or sexual assault.

Furthermore, males of all ages are even less likely to report sexual assault and/or rape then women are. 

Seems to me that all of this is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.


----------



## EleGirl

JCD said:


> 2) that the crimes are judged and punished EQUALLY for both genders. Girls don't get a slap on the wrist because they can't penetrate. Boys don't face a 'guilty until proven innocent' burden of proof.


Rape requires penetration (vagina, anus or mouth).

So a female can rape a male using an object. I'm not sure if forced penetration by a female is considered rape. But it way past my bedtime so I don't have time to look it up right now.


unwanted sexual touch of unclothed intimate parts of another is not rape. It's sexual assault, but not rape.

Here in New Mexico the law distinguishes between the two.

Criminal sexual penetration = rape

Criminal sexual contact = other sexual assault of touching sex organs under the clothing or with no clothing on the victim.

Section 30-9-11 — Criminal sexual penetration. :: Article 9 — Sexual Offenses, 30-9-1 through 30-9-19. :: Chapter 30 — Criminal Offenses. :: 2006 New Mexico Statutes :: New Mexico Statutes :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> I’m not sure why you think that there is less gray when it comes to the rape of men by men. It’s very much as gray as it is for female victims.
> 
> A college guy goes to a frat party, gets drunk and passes out or is too drunk to really know what’s going on. One more of the guys there rapes him. This is not any less gray than if the victim is a female. How is the male victim going to prove that he was not into the male on male sex?
> 
> A lot of the rape of men by men is between gay men as well. That’s just as murky as with a man rapist and a female victim.
> 
> The vast majority of the adult male on male rape is prison rape. These numbers are not included in the above percentages and are higher than all the other male stats for sexual assault and rape of men. Most of the perpetrators of male rape in prison are the prison guards. How is any guy in prison going to prove that he did not want to have sex with the other guy? Unless he’s hurt badly, there is no way to prove it was rape and/or sexual assault.
> 
> Furthermore, males of all ages are even less likely to report sexual assault and/or rape then women are.
> 
> Seems to me that all of this is a huge issue that needs to be addressed.


A couple of things.

First, if we assume that homosexuality is around 5% (could be 2...could be 10...but we are quibbling), essentially we are conceding that in a way which is not true in a male/female heterosexual incident, there is only a 1 in 20 chance that the man is 'into that'. His burden of proof is much lower.

A jury will ask itself these two questions:

1) Is there proof of sexual assault?

2) is he demonstrably gay or bisexual?

If the answers are yes and no accordingly, than they will essentially rubber stamp this as a rape where they would not do so for a male/female rape. I am not saying this is right. I am saying this is pretty true.

And note that I get that this works against 'gay rape' accusations. Now the gay victim faces just as much of a burden or proof as a female victim, if not more so because of all the stereotypes about homosexual men and promiscuity. 

Prison? How is prison an interesting conversation at all? The sheer power disparity means that, even if Inmate #423 is ASKING for it, it is a crime for a *prison guard* to have any kind of sex with him...just as it would be just as wrong for a prison guard to engage in consensual sexual activity with a female inmate.

It is wrong on it's face according to regulation and law and consent plays zero role. There is no gray area in prison guard rape. I won't even bother to look up the CFR. It is obvious.

This then is not a question of 'rape' as much as it is in the proper administration of the inmate population and the faculty.

Lastly, there is a male way of looking at things. A guy who is multiply raped...we can't fix a problem we don't know about. If you appreciate your privacy over justice, who are we to gainsay you? (There is a certain bleed over into female silence on rape. I only speak for myself here.)

There is also, as you imply, a shocking silence on the matter. Where men fear being derided and emasculated by confessing. Culture is hard to change. 

But also looking at your children and sex assault stats, a LOT of these rapes occur at a very young age! The way we should address that is one of power disparity. A boy is not a man. He should not feel shame at being overpowered at that age (at any age really. Anyone can be held down and assaulted by enough people, even Mr. Universe)

How to teach that? Very difficult and victim rape shield laws should be vigorously applied. That is gender neutral for underage boys and girls.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Rape requires penetration (vagina, anus or mouth).
> 
> So a female can rape a male using an object. I'm not sure if forced penetration by a female is considered rape. But it way past my bedtime so I don't have time to look it up right now.
> 
> 
> unwanted sexual touch of unclothed intimate parts of another is not rape. It's sexual assault, but not rape.
> 
> Here in New Mexico the law distinguishes between the two.
> 
> Criminal sexual penetration = rape
> 
> Criminal sexual contact = other sexual assault of touching sex organs under the clothing or with no clothing on the victim.
> 
> Section 30-9-11 â€” Criminal sexual penetration. :: Article 9 â€” Sexual Offenses, 30-9-1 through 30-9-19. :: Chapter 30 â€” Criminal Offenses. :: 2006 New Mexico Statutes :: New Mexico Statutes :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia


New Mexico has it's own statutes. 

There are two choices here: 

Women, by the penetration definition, CANNOT EVER be as guilty as a man (saving beer bottles) due to their biological equipment, therefore any sexual contact she has is far less heinous in punishment than what a man can do. The very nature of his 'tool of rape' automatically makes it deserving of harsher punishment...because it is designed to penetrate.

OR

Forced sexual intercourse is forced sexual intercourse. Someone fvcking someone else is engaging in the exact same level of violation to a person's autonomy, self respect and free will, no matter the gender.

Which option do you feel is more just?


----------



## Anon Pink

tacoma said:


> I'm pretty sure I didn't want my best friends wife giving me head and if I remember correctly I immediately let her know.
> 
> In fact most of the women who did this knew it was unwanted but they were drunk, I was passed out, and y'know once it's already started what guy is going to say no?
> He's just a guy, they all want it.
> 
> You seem to feel "unwanted" and "unbothered" are mutually exclusive.
> 
> The fact that I'm apparently not traumatized by an unwanted womans mouth on my genitals doesn't mean I desired it or enjoyed it or allowed her to continue.
> 
> Much bigger things in this world to worry about without allowing some crazy chick to rent space in my head over some body parts touching.
> 
> Pretty sure the tale of a 25 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl would have most complaining about control issues and exploitation regardless of whether or not the girl was "bothered" by it.
> 
> Odd how the rules change when genders change.


I'm genuinely confused. Were you bothered by these events or not?

And this statement also confuses me because I have no idea what meaning you ascribe to these events?
"and y'know once it's already started what guy is going to say no?
He's just a guy, they all want it."

I don't want a mosquito bite, I am bothered by mosquito bites but I would not deem a mosquito bite an injury, even though technically, I guess, a mosquito bite is a tiny bit of an injury.

*The rules DO NOT change because genders change and I have NEVER suggested otherwise.* However I hope you aren't comparing your experiences about which you weren't particularly bothered to the experiences of other women who were sexually touched and were greatly bothered?

Are you suggesting that your experiences of having these women (I don't even know what to call your experiences because without the associated emotional trauma I have a very difficult time calling it anything other than sexual aggression) do this to you, and you "not being particularly bothered" mean that women who have had this happen to them are over reacting?


----------



## Anon Pink

JCD said:


> I think many supporters of the 'affirmative consent' law are more than happy to concede that 'the law will be fair' but understand that culturally there is not a chance in hell their daughters, screwing some men when drunk, will get treated like a boy in the same position.
> 
> 
> And 'if the man feels violated'...that isn't how that regulation reads. If a boy has sex with a girl who does NOT feel violated, the boy is just as guilty if he does not get consent if he is discovered by a third party. The same should apply equally in both cases.
> 
> And please bear in mind, I am so tedious on this point because I want to highlight the absurdity of this law. If a girl can't be put on a sexual predator watch list or bear getting tossed out of school, it should not be done to boys for the exact same offense.


If, after any sort of nonconsenting sexual contact, either party does NOT FEEL violated, then by definition, that party was NOT violated.

JCD, I'm not going to argue the require affirmative consent on college campuses with you. I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.


----------



## ChristianGrey

Cletus said:


> BAM!, and I'm right in the middle of the sex act with one of my coworkers, fully aware of my surroundings.
> 
> 
> Now to be clear, I don't remember how we got there, but I do know that I wasn't even remotely interested in this girl intellectually, sexually, or casually...
> 
> 
> Anyway, when I came too, I was pretty amazed. I put an end to our copulation immediately, trying to be tactful, all the while thinking "How in the hell did I wind up here?"...
> 
> 
> Embarrassment was what I felt more than anything..



"_Drinking provides a beautiful excuse to pursue the one activity that truly gives me pleasure, hooking up with fat, hairy girls." _— Ross Levy


----------



## 2ntnuf

It wasn't the act itself for me. It was the fact I did not want it, but more importantly, I was in pain. So much so, that it took a change in my thinking, my mind, my ... I can't seem to find the words. It made me feel sick. It made me feel violated in a sense that I never thought possible. It was sickening. Would I have liked it if I was penetrated more than the mental thing I just wrote? No. She tried that on another occasion, but fortunately, I was on top and about climbed up the head board of the bed. I was angry and confused. Yes, I felt like I was nearly violated without consent and it was horrible. The mental aspect would likely have been quite similar. It's so difficult to explain. Unless you have been through it, I don't know how you can understand fully.


----------



## always_alone

EleGirl said:


> Rape requires penetration (vagina, anus or mouth).
> 
> So a female can rape a male using an object. I'm not sure if forced penetration by a female is considered rape. But it way past my bedtime so I don't have time to look it up right now.


The CDC now includes being "made to penetrate" as one of its categories in their national survey of intimate and sexual violence. 

With this category, it becomes clear that women can indeed rape men, although as far as I know it still remains to be seen whether this will also be accepted as part of the legal definition.


----------



## ChristianGrey

always_alone said:


> The CDC now includes being "made to penetrate" as one of its categories in their national survey of intimate and sexual violence.


Tearing you apart and snatching your heart out does not count, I guess?


----------



## always_alone

southbound said:


> I heard a guy say once: Suppose a guy is an adult and physically fit, and he has a first date with a hot woman. When he goes to her apartment, 6 other women overpower and tie him up. Let's just say they take turns giving him a hand job, nothing more, and release him about an hour later. He said he didn't know too may men who would have nightmares over that. Although it seems strange, I didn't really have a counter argument for him.


If you paint it as a Dear Penthouse fantasy, then of course it will a bit difficult to see how it is rape. However, notice that he assumes that he would not be harmed *and* that he would get off.

Contrast this with a more realistic picture: he is being handled roughly with zero regard for his pleasure or dignity, and so the whole event is painful and humiliating.


----------



## ChristianGrey

always_alone said:


> Contrast this with a more realistic picture: he is being handled roughly with zero regard for his pleasure or dignity, and so the whole event is painful and humiliating.


Some people actually get turned on by that kind of stuff.


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> I'm genuinely confused. Were you bothered by these events or not?
> 
> And this statement also confuses me because I have no idea what meaning you ascribe to these events?
> "and y'know once it's already started what guy is going to say no?
> He's just a guy, they all want it."
> 
> I don't want a mosquito bite, I am bothered by mosquito bites but I would not deem a mosquito bite an injury, even though technically, I guess, a mosquito bite is a tiny bit of an injury.
> 
> *The rules DO NOT change because genders change and I have NEVER suggested otherwise.* However I hope you aren't comparing your experiences about which you weren't particularly bothered to the experiences of other women who were sexually touched and were greatly bothered?
> 
> Are you suggesting that your experiences of having these women (I don't even know what to call your experiences because without the associated emotional trauma I have a very difficult time calling it anything other than sexual aggression) do this to you, and you "not being particularly bothered" mean that women who have had this happen to them are over reacting?


This is how I am reading what he is saying.

The drunken women were engaging in some disgusting sexist stereotyping of their own: to wit, any man with a mouth around his penis is by rights, a happy man! Men don't care about consent...or morality. As long as the little head is happy, the man should automatically be happy.

I.E. Men are pigs.

Tacoma was being sarcastic about the attitudes of all these *female* witnesses of him being drunkenly violated.

Now, while he is not about to crawl up into a little ball and cry on his best friends shoulder for a month, that does not change the fact that he was being sexually assaulted in a way that would have many, if not most, women screaming bloody murder no matter how 'bothered' she actually was.

"Violation' does not mean 'emotionally scarred'. Violation means your boundaries have been crossed no matter the injury.

The act itself, quite apart from how bothered he was, is a violation. It is this principle that women are holding to. A man running his hand over a woman's rear end without dealing any injury is 'violating her'. The principle is 'no touchie'.

Let me put it another way. 

Madrigal is a very self aware and confident woman. She has a good head on her shoulders in general and understands personal responsibility, ethics, and has a very good and centered self image.

She goes to a party and perhaps imbibes too much alcohol. She wakes up to find the wimpy and contemptible Weazley pumping away on top of her. She is disgusted. She is slightly shocked. But she is not scared. She is not emotionally scarred. This is 98 pound Weazley whom no one takes seriously. Essentially, she has the same reaction as Tacoma. 

Does her lack of emotional reaction mean that no rape has occurred? What is the legal standing of Weazley? Could the defense of Weazely say 'hey...she didn't SEEM bothered'? Would you buy it? 

See the definition I posted before you answer.


----------



## Anon Pink

You know JCD, this was something I contemplated during my own healing.

"If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound?"

Absent of physical pain, do we ascribe false meaning to sexual touch? If while walking busy street corner someone nudged me aside and in passing touched my hand or elbow why would I brush that off so easily yet if they touched my breast or ass I would be highly offended? Why? Why do we ascribe such reverent respect for one body part over another?

Do you remember that TV show from the early 70's (don't know how old you are) Love American Style? Two of the skits explored this theme with a couple after a date at her apartment. In one skit, the man was slowly unbuttoning her blouse trying to talk her into sex as she quickly refastened her buttons explaining good girls don't. Then she coughs. He, a doctor, gets his bag while explaining her cough sounded horrible and says "take off your blouse," as he pulls out his stethoscope. She does, he listens to her breathing with a highly dispassionate and professional look on his face. He tells her he's through and she can get dressed now as he puts away his stethoscope and writes her a prescription. She does. And then they resume their game of seduction.

The other skit was about a woman who was a centerfold and nudist and she is trying to convince him to take off their clothes together. But she is wearing gloves and refuses to take them off. She talks about how special her hands are and she refuses to show them to anyone but her doctor and her future husband. They guy goes nuts because he now MUST see her hands all the while she's begging him to please unzip her as she refuses to remove her gloves.

It was just an exercise in trying to find deeper meaning behind and cope with feeling violated. 

So I have to stick to my POV, that absent feeling violated/traumatized, there was no violation.

In the case of Madrigal, if she didn't feel violated then she wasn't. For her it felt like a rude SOB who nudged her out of his way on a busy street corner.

You want rules applied equally. I don't disagree with you. Rules should be applied equally. If someone feels violated by the actions of another, they should have the right to seek legal redress.


----------



## Lionelhutz

It was by an older cousin when I was 12. In all honesty I can't remember if she was 17 or 18 at the time. Our families spent a lot of time together and I grew up seeing this cousin as a defacto older sister. At that age I think she could be best described as sexually focused. Even in comparison to my peers, I was pretty dumb and naive about sex and girls at the age. She was babysitting for my younger sister and we were alone. 

It wasn't the equivalent of rape but given the definitions of "sexual assault" or "sexual abuse" that is currently being used I think it qualifies. 

In short, over the course of the evening she persisted in talking to me about sex in increasingly graphic terms. I was into it at first as a bit of illicit fun, but then she wouldn't shut up. 

I don't want to go into too much detail since it will inevitably sound like child or incest porn or more erotic than it was. I viewed her as a older relative and quasi authority figure so while I had an increasing interest in sex at that age I had no sexual interest in her. Also I grew up in a religious household so feelings of guilt and shame quickly intruded and took the fun away. 

In the end, she has applied considerable pressure on me to take off my pants, some fondling ensued by her and an extended attempt to get me to masturbate in front of her. She ended up talking off her pants at one point seemingly to educate me about girl parts. I had grown up with lots of females in my life so while curious about sex, girl parts in themselves weren't news to me. 


As cliched as this may sound, she eventually became a born again Christian.


How I feel about this incident has changed many times. 12 year old me was mostly filled with shame, guilt and even anger. As a male, particularly in my teens and 20s it is not really possible to accept a notion of sexual victimhood at the hands of a female, so I mostly just ignored it, laughed it off or felt contempt for the younger me who was too much of a whimp to sit back and enjoy the experience.

I can say that I don't really feel anger towards her. However, I can say that if my son was put into the same situation I would be intensely pissed off.


----------



## Anon Pink

Lionelhutz said:


> How I feel about this incident has changed many times. 12 year old me was mostly filled with shame, guilt and even anger. *As a male, particularly in my teens and 20s it is not really possible to accept a notion of sexual victimhood at the hands of a female*, so I mostly just ignored it, laughed it off or felt contempt for the younger me who was too much of a whimp to sit back and enjoy the experience.
> 
> I can say that I don't really feel anger towards her. However, I can say that if my son was put into the same situation *I would be intensely pissed off.*


Im sorry you went through that because it was clearly abusive.

The first bolded part has me intensely curious and I was wondering if you could talk a little more about that. You say it was not really possible to "accept the notion of sexual victimhood at the hands of a female." Does this mean you felt like you had been violated but because you were male and she was female you rejected those feelings? Or was it the other way around? That you didn't feel violated but the situation was clearly a violation?

The second bolded part. If this happened to your son you'd be intensely pissed off, and so would I as a mother to a son. But what exactly would have angered you? The fact that your son would have to wade through the emotional mind fields trying to put this experience in perspective? The fact that your son would indeed have been violated by a person of power and trust? What this experience might mean to him?


----------



## JCD

Anon Pink said:


> You know JCD, this was something I contemplated during my own healing.
> 
> "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound?"
> 
> Absent of physical pain, do we ascribe false meaning to sexual touch? If while walking busy street corner someone nudged me aside and in passing touched my hand or elbow why would I brush that off so easily yet if they touched my breast or ass I would be highly offended? Why? Why do we ascribe such reverent respect for one body part over another?
> 
> Do you remember that TV show from the early 70's (don't know how old you are) Love American Style? Two of the skits explored this theme with a couple after a date at her apartment. In one skit, the man was slowly unbuttoning her blouse trying to talk her into sex as she quickly refastened her buttons explaining good girls don't. Then she coughs. He, a doctor, gets his bag while explaining her cough sounded horrible and says "take off your blouse," as he pulls out his stethoscope. She does, he listens to her breathing with a highly dispassionate and professional look on his face. He tells her he's through and she can get dressed now as he puts away his stethoscope and writes her a prescription. She does. And then they resume their game of seduction.
> 
> The other skit was about a woman who was a centerfold and nudist and she is trying to convince him to take off their clothes together. But she is wearing gloves and refuses to take them off. She talks about how special her hands are and she refuses to show them to anyone but her doctor and her future husband. They guy goes nuts because he now MUST see her hands all the while she's begging him to please unzip her as she refuses to remove her gloves.
> 
> It was just an exercise in trying to find deeper meaning behind and cope with feeling violated.
> 
> So I have to stick to my POV, that absent feeling violated/traumatized, there was no violation.
> 
> In the case of Madrigal, if she didn't feel violated then she wasn't. For her it felt like a rude SOB who nudged her out of his way on a busy street corner.
> 
> You want rules applied equally. I don't disagree with you. Rules should be applied equally. If someone feels violated by the actions of another, they should have the right to seek legal redress.


I recall that program. It had it's amusing moments.

Okay. Let me ask a follow up question.

Is 'feeling violated' and 'traumatized' the same thing?

Because in Madrigal's case, *he had his frigging penis inside of her*. This is clearly a violation. That she experiences nothing more crippling than a sense of outrage doesn't change the principle of the violation.

And while I don't mind your definition in some ways (if a woman doesn't care about a stranger putting his penis inside of her, why should I?), as a legal principle, you are wrong. If a DA came in while some guy was putting his penis inside of an unconscious girl, he could prosecute.

Would he? Depends on her reaction. He has a budget. But as a principle, it would be a crime.

That Tacoma mentioned, he felt violated...but not so violated he wanted to get prosecutorial. (though frankly, I'd get new friends)


----------



## Runs like Dog

Again though, it's very tricky to assign moral agency for your behavior to someone else. Being a blackout drunk carries with it its own risks. Being 'raped' by a woman as a result? What about running over someone with your car? And so incapacitation may void your immediate responsibility for your own actions second by second it doesn't remove how you wound up at that point in the first place.


----------



## Cletus

Anon Pink said:


> Are you suggesting that your experiences of having these women (I don't even know what to call your experiences because without the associated emotional trauma I have a very difficult time calling it anything other than sexual aggression) do this to you, and you "not being particularly bothered" mean that women who have had this happen to them are over reacting?


Speaking for myself - 

I would never say that a woman should view these incidents as less horrific to her than it clearly is. Nor would I say that a man should be more horrified than he is. We each get to decide how a violation of our person affects us.

What I would say, and have said all along to the tune of considerable outrage here, is that you will probably find that the average woman finds the event more disturbing than the average man. Not that there is "an average man" or "an average woman", but the mean of the responses over a large population. 

I often get a "it's not the same" response because it wasn't unwanted, or at least, not unwanted to the same degree - well yes, that's *exactly* the point.


----------



## 2ntnuf

It's more because the man has not been put in the position to feel like he could not get out of the situation. When that happens, there is a difference. Most men are larger than their mate. My ex and I were around the same weight. I was stronger, but she had me at a disadvantage, which may or may not, likely didn't occur to her via the soft matress and her weight and positioning. The other major factor is, could I even have gotten out from under her had I hit her in the head? I doubt it. I needed to move her body and there was no way to do that. This all factors into the trauma. By the time you decide you can do nothing to help yourself to get away, you then have to make, force, yourself to feel something that is not normal, natural, desired, enjoyable in a different way. You realize you must alter your thinking about what is pleasurable or you will endure the suffering longer. This takes a literal near immediate change in brain chemistry and thought patterns, as well as conclusions drawn with reason and logic. These changes, in my opinion, are what cause the trauma. WhY? They are induced by allowing the very basic animal brain, where the desire to live is more important than anything else takes over. There are many things a person can endure and live through when these areas are accessed. However, these new connections are made and wanted to be used by the brain for all future decisions. Also, the chemicals associated with pleasure, must be released at a time when the brain and logical reasoning are telling our bodies. nope this should not be. Yes, these feelings, these decisions, these conclusions must be present to get through it and force the trauma.


----------



## Lionelhutz

Anon Pink said:


> Im sorry you went through that because it was clearly abusive.
> 
> The first bolded part has me intensely curious and I was wondering if you could talk a little more about that. You say it was not really possible to "accept the notion of sexual victimhood at the hands of a female." Does this mean you felt like you had been violated but because you were male and she was female you rejected those feelings? Or was it the other way around? That you didn't feel violated but the situation was clearly a violation?
> 
> The second bolded part. If this happened to your son you'd be intensely pissed off, and so would I as a mother to a son. But what exactly would have angered you? The fact that your son would have to wade through the emotional mind fields trying to put this experience in perspective? The fact that your son would indeed have been violated by a person of power and trust? What this experience might mean to him?


As a male there is a sense that you should simply be able to "deal" with sexual interaction with females. Men are often derided as being "Horndogs" but on the other hand there is a sense that a real man should generally want sex anytime anywhere. In addition, a man should be able to see sex as "just sex" and not whine about it. Finally, there is the notion of powerlessness. When you are a young male you revel in your growing sense of personal power. I was athletic and seen as mature for my age. However, my maturity did not extend to accepting any form of personal weakness

I would be angry if it happened to my son because I can see myself in him at his age and it reminds me of just how innocent I was and how easily I could have been manipulated. Just like I was, he is easily embarassed by romance let alone sexuality and anyting like what happened to me would be a violation.


----------



## ocotillo

EleGirl said:


> Rape requires penetration (vagina, anus or mouth).


Some states (Like California) still explicitly define, "Rape." 

Some states (Like yours, as you point out) differentiate between "Criminal Sexual Contact" and "Criminal Sexual Penetration" so for all intents and purposes, "Rape" is still a separate crime. 

Some states (Like mine) have almost completely taken this gender specificity out of the criminal code. 

It strikes me as funny in a way, because I would have thought conservative AZ would have been one of the last states to do this.


----------



## vellocet

Cletus said:


> This is a nod to Anon Pink who asked a question in another thread that probably deserves its own title.
> 
> Any men out there who feel that they were sexually assaulted by a woman?


Well, not really. But there was one time in high school on the way back from an event on the bus a new gf of mine could not keep her hands off my junk. Embarrassingly I had to tell her to wait til we are alone, but she was line a jungle cat.

Then we get back to my house, we get hot and heavy into it, I touch her breast for the first time, and she pulls back and says, "Is this all you want me for?"

I pulled back and said, "You're kidding right?" She left, I was relieved.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
One tricky thing about rape / sexual assault is that its seriousness can vary greatly with the victim. 

What is a life-ruining event for one person could be merely a bad experience for another. 

I suspect the range in men is even larger than for women. I'm sure there are men who would not particularly mind being coerced into sex by a women, while for others is is really devastating. 

I think the only reasonably approach is to treat rape and sexual asssault as serious crimes, regardless of how badly it affects the victim, and regardless of the gender of the gender of the victim or attacker.


----------



## tacoma

JCD explained my perspective about the events I posted better than I did Anon.



Anon Pink said:


> Absent of physical pain, do we ascribe false meaning to sexual touch? If while walking busy street corner someone nudged me aside and in passing touched my hand or elbow why would I brush that off so easily yet if they touched my breast or ass I would be highly offended? Why? Why do we ascribe such reverent respect for one body part over another?


I've thought about this a lot and my conclusion while probably not popular seems rational to me.

I think we do people (women in particular) a disservice when we raise them to feel that their sexuality is some precious gem that can't be touched or seen by any but the most exclusive of people.

The reason I wasn't so upset about the molestations I endured while most women would have been deeply emotionally scarred is because I (as a male) was never taught that my penis was to be saved for special purposes...it's just a penis.

If most women were raised the way most men are about their sexuality I think they'd be much stronger emotionally where all sexual acts are concerned.
Both the wanted and unwanted.


----------



## 2ntnuf

The other side of that coin is women may think less of themselves and then choose sexual partners poorly. The emotional bonds created may cause them to stay in these "relationships" thinking the problem is theirs. It is, it's just that they didn't value themselves enough to know what they offered was worth a better man.

ETA: However, this thread was about sexual assault on men by women. How do you propose to tie that in with the theme of the topic? I suppose women who believe their sexuality is common would not consider sex as any type of assault no matter what their partner thinks? That would make sense as to why they would do such a thing. All men desire is sex. Sex can be gotten anywhere. I better give him my sex, even if he says he doesn't want it, he really does because all men ever want is sex. Something is wrong with my premise, but at least I know it. In general, I think it can be interesting.


----------



## BrockLanders

There's really no end to people looking for new ways to be a victim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shoto1984

Something tells me the percentage of unreported sexaul assualts against men is even higher than the percantage of unreported sexual assualts against women. Just a wild guess.


----------



## WandaJ

ChristianGrey said:


> Some people actually get turned on by that kind of stuff.[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes, but they made a choice of a person that will do that kind of stuff to them and they decide their soft and hard boundaries before they start PLAYING. Not the same as real rape.


----------



## larry.gray

EleGirl said:


> This discussion has been 100% about sexual assault and rape of men by women.
> 
> Let's not forget that about 60% of the sexual assault and rape of men is carried out my other men. Shouldn't that be discussed as well?


What's to discus? There isn't much controversy. Just compare man on man vs. opposite gender rape:

False allegations of rape by another man are vanishingly rare. Not so with women claiming rape. I buy the claims that it is around 5% to 10% of women claiming rape are made up, either for attention seeking, revenge, evading slvt shaming, regret or mental illness.

Nobody says "you can't rape a man because they all want it" when it's man on man. Not so when a man is raped by a woman. Plenty of folks of both genders don't think women rape men.

If I advocate due process prior to incarceration about a man accused of raping another man, I'm not slandered by a litany of straw men. Not so when discussing men raping women. I've been accused right here on this forum of "Standing for the rights of men to rape young drunk women."

The only thing that is a parallel is that men raped by men are equally unwilling to report as raped women are because of the shame and further trauma a trial brings.


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## richardsharpe

Completely agree
Consensual BDSM is as different from rape as sport is from war. It is a game that both players agree to. There are (or SHOULD BE), agreed upon limits, and more often than not it is done to satisfy the fantasies of the sub more than the fantasies of the dominant person. 

It is true that I've heard of BDSM used as an excuse for real abuse, but that is a deviation from the basic concept.



WandaJ said:


> ChristianGrey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some people actually get turned on by that kind of stuff.[/QUOTE
> 
> Yes, but they made a choice of a person that will do that kind of stuff to them and they decide their soft and hard boundaries before they start PLAYING. Not the same as real rape.
Click to expand...


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## ocotillo

richardsharpe said:


> ....as different from rape as sport is from war.


Good analogy!


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## Pollo

lenzi said:


> All you know is you got piss drunk and had sex with a chick you weren't attracted to. You have no memory of the events immediately preceding the act, you don't mention anything about being drugged, and I don't think you've got anything to go on when you suggest you were assaulted.


lol, if you reverse the genders in the situation I wonder what your opinion would be.


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## alexm

Back to the original topic:

When I was 17, I was out with some friends (guys and girls) and we all had a little too much to drink. My girlfriend at the time wasn't with us. Her "friend" was, however, and was notorious for getting around.

At the end of the evening, riding the public limo back to our neighborhood, she starts getting flirty with me. I brushed her off, probably laughed, generally tried to ignore her. We come to our stop, and me, her and another dude got off. I was going to crash at his house, and she lived like 2 blocks away. Anyway, she says something to him like she's too drunk to go home, her parents are still up, so she's going to stay at his place.

We get to his house, he tells us we can have the basement, he's going up to bed. I try frantically to let me sleep on his floor or somewhere else. He says nope, his parents are home, just stay in the basement. So now I'm alone with this girl, we're both mildly drunk, and she had been hitting on me 20 minutes earlier. Great.

Long story short, she tries again. I tell her nope, not going to happen, girlfriend or not. I tell her to take the couch, I'm going to find a blanket and sleep on the laundry room floor (which was carpeted for some reason! The things you remember...)

Not 5 minutes later, she's in the laundry room and trying to get under the blanket with me, hands everywhere. She tries to kiss me, is grabbing my crotch, and then straddles me.

I didn't want to physically hurt her by throwing her off me, or pushing her or anything, so the only thing I can think of is to tell her that I'll tell my girlfriend what she's trying to do if she doesn't stop right then and there. Her response - immediately - was to say "if you don't **** me right now, I'll tell everybody you did, anyway."

Every possible scenario ran through my head in about 5 seconds, and none of them were good. I was 17 and stupid, I was drunk, all my buddies saw her hitting on me earlier in the evening, and I was now alone with her in our friends basement. Despite her reputation, things didn't look good for me. Actually, given her reputation, it probably made things worse. So I made what seemed to be the safest choice at the time, but I made it very clear I wasn't into this. She didn't care, apparently.

I haven't told anyone this story except for my wife. I feel more shame about it now because I made the wrong choice, even though it seemed the safest and smartest at the time. I don't count this person among any of the women I've slept with, either.


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## 2ntnuf

Sorry you had that happen. That sucks.


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## JCD

alexm said:


> Her response - immediately - was to say "if you don't **** me right now, I'll tell everybody you did, anyway."


But but but but but...I have it on the HIGHEST authority on TAM that women don't lie about stuff like that!

It is as vanishingly small as hen's teeth.


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## alexm

JCD said:


> But but but but but...I have it on the HIGHEST authority on TAM that women don't lie about stuff like that!
> 
> It is as vanishingly small as hen's teeth.


lol, yeah...

The irony is that she probably wouldn't have said anything if I refused her and told her to relax, but I wasn't going to take that chance. If that happened to me now, at my age, I'd call her bluff.

Also, had I been rational and calm with her, and discussed with her exactly why this wasn't going to happen, she probably wouldn't have been so pissed off that she'd make stuff up. Again, wasn't going to take that chance.. THEN.

The worst part about it was that she remained in our circle for several more years, and even popped up again a few years back. She's now gone for good, I hope. She never amounted to much, broken marriage, was still partying it up, almost definitely an alcoholic. I felt sorry for her, she's obviously got some major major issues. I just wish she hadn't imposed them on me.


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