# Wife takes vibrator on business trips



## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

I shared the initial vibrator story a few months ago. We finally managed to use it together but this only happened once over a month ago now. 

She's been using her vibrator in secret which I found out last night. I was really hurt by this. She's currently on a business trip and took it with her. A few days ago, I was away and she used it again.

We haven't had sex in over a month now but there's definitely an increase in usage.

I confronted her on the phone about and she was shocked that I knew about all this. She says she hadn't considered how I would feel about it. I find that hard to believe. 

Any ideas to help me see or understand what's going on here?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I guess she likes the vibrator more than you?

So you should find out why, and perhaps figure out a way to incorporate it into your love making. Asking us won't get you anything but guesses. Only one person knows the answer. 

I'm on week 2 of an overseas business trip. Don't fault your wife for bringing along a little entertainment. It gets right lonely in a strange town for days on end. Better than the alternative.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

,


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I guess she likes the vibrator more than you?
> 
> So you should find out why, and perhaps figure out a way to incorporate it into your love making. Asking us won't get you anything but guesses. Only one person knows the answer.
> 
> I'm on week 2 of an overseas business trip. Don't fault your wife for bringing along a little entertainment. It gets right lonely in a strange town for days on end. Better than the alternative.


*Yeah! My RSXW was notorious for planning rendezvous' on her out-of-town business trips for those "organic phalluses" that were coincidentally attached to her prior boyfriends!

Funny! She never said a damned word to me about it!*


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I haven't read your other threads, so I don't know anything of your story beyond this thread. Taking the vibrator on business trips, or using it while you are away from home, neither of these is a major concern. I take mine on trips, or use it when I am at my place alone (apart from my boyfriend, who has his own place). What is a concern is that the two of you haven't had sex in over a month, and I get the impression that she has been using the vibrator at home when she could have been having sex with her husband.

It's one thing if she's using the vibrator to warm herself up before you get home, or while waiting for you to join her in the bedroom. But using it as a replacement for sex with her partner is very problematic.

I fully expect my boyfriend to masturbate when he's on his own and he isn't going to see me that day. But when I come over for the weekend (or the evening), he knows that sex with me has priority over his masturbation. That is the law of the land, and that should really be the case in every healthy relationship.

If she's using the vibrator as a surrogate sex partner, I find it hard to believe that she hasn't thought of how you would feel about this. I think she's lying on that point.

We can't tell you what's going on with her, you need to talk to her and find out for yourself.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

FeministInPink said:


> I haven't read your other threads, so I don't know anything of your story beyond this thread. Taking the vibrator on business trips, or using it while you are away from home, neither of these is a major concern. I take mine on trips, or use it when I am at my place alone (apart from my boyfriend, who has his own place). What is a concern is that the two of you haven't had sex in over a month, and I get the impression that she has been using the vibrator at home when she could have been having sex with her husband.
> 
> It's one thing if she's using the vibrator to warm herself up before you get home, or while waiting for you to join her in the bedroom. But using it as a replacement for sex with her partner is very problematic.
> 
> ...


Yep.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I put vibrators in the same category as porn. If they are used when your partner isn't available, or with your partner, then they are fine. If they are used INSTEAD of sex with your partner, then there is a problem.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

She's still on the business trip at the moment still waiting for a response. Trust has been broken and I'm not sure what to do now.... 

However, thank you all for those comments and suggestions. Keep ém coming as I try to figure this out....


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

PatJourno said:


> I shared the initial vibrator story a few months ago. We finally managed to use it together but this only happened once over a month ago now.
> 
> She's been using her vibrator in secret which I found out last night. I was really hurt by this. She's currently on a business trip and took it with her. A few days ago, I was away and she used it again.
> 
> ...


She's shocked you knew because she thought she was hiding it so well? 

So, she intended for you to not find out. Which, to me, says she knew very well how you would feel about it.

She's a liar.


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## SoFlaGuy (Nov 28, 2014)

At first I was going to say it's not a big deal and could even be a turn on but being she's replacing you withit, well that's a problem.You need to have a talk.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

So, since no one has asked - have you masturbated over the past month? Does she know about this? I think you should be more concerned with not having sex for a month. The vibrator is just her substitute for it. Whether or not either of you realize it something is wrong. There is a much larger issue in your marriage than a vibrator on a business trip. So deal with that and stop making mountains out of mole hills.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

To answer your question: no I haven't. 

You're VERY right....there is something much wider happening in my relationship. Counselling sessions have been helping but obviously there's more work to do done going forward.




Ynot said:


> So, since no one has asked - have you masturbated over the past month? Does she know about this? I think you should be more concerned with not having sex for a month. The vibrator is just her substitute for it. Whether or not either of you realize it something is wrong. There is a much larger issue in your marriage than a vibrator on a business trip. So deal with that and stop making mountains out of mole hills.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> To answer your question: no I haven't.
> 
> You're VERY right....there is something much wider happening in my relationship. Counselling sessions have been helping but obviously there's more work to do done going forward.


Well then be glad it she is just using a vibrator instead of looking for the real thing. At least she isn't having an affair. Now start working on the real problem and stop worrying about small ones. 
I don't know what your marital problems are. You may or may not be able to resolve them. The vibrator usage may or may not be related to her resolution of the issues. Regardless, this is something to discuss in counseling with her. 
Personally I wouldn't be too concerned over a vibrator. I would be more concerned about not having sex for a month. The vibrator would add to that concern.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> She's still on the business trip at the moment still waiting for a response. Trust has been broken and I'm not sure what to do now....
> 
> However, thank you all for those comments and suggestions. Keep ém coming as I try to figure this out....


What trust has been broken??? She's on a business trip away from you, it's not like she can have sex with you while she's away. 

I think you are going to push her waaaay away about this subject, and generally, if you keep focusing on the fact that she is away on a business trip and brought her vibrator with her.

I'd leave out all discussion about the vibrator period, trip or no trip and focus solely on why you aren't having a more regular sex life. But, not right now while she is away for business.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

OK, I'll ask - how did you find out?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Ynot said:


> So, since no one has asked - have you masturbated over the past month?





PatJourno said:


> To answer your question: no I haven't.



You haven't masturbated in a month. Why not? Honestly, most of the guys - and a great many of the women - I know would be climbing out of their skin if they hadn't had a sexual release in a month. Do you hold a religious conviction that masturbation is sinful? When you say that trust has been broken, is that because you view masturbation as infidelity? 

So...why aren't you and your wife having sex? Is she not interested, are you not interested? Is it good for both of you when you do have sex?


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

I guess with running a business, being a Dad and family man, I just haven't had the urge to find a quiet corner and masturbate. It's not religious at all. I've been swamped with stuff.

Daughter's 4 and our sex life has slowed down a LOT over the years. Mrs says after the daughter was born she hasn't been interested in sex. Intimacy in our marriage has been an issue admittedly. We've spoken about it a great deal.

If intimacy wasn't an issue, this probably wouldn't be an issue TBH. Using a vibrator while I travel for work and she's home and she travels and takes it with her and not getting any is a bit hard to deal with. Naturally, I'm taking it personally which I think is understandable.



Rowan said:


> You haven't masturbated in a month. Why not? Honestly, most of the guys - and a great many of the women - I know would be climbing out of their skin if they hadn't had a sexual release in a month. Do you hold a religious conviction that masturbation is sinful? When you say that trust has been broken, is that because you view masturbation as infidelity?
> 
> So...why aren't you and your wife having sex? Is she not interested, are you not interested? Is it good for both of you when you do have sex?


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

When she bought it with her girlfriend in December, I expressed my feelings about a vibrator given our lack of sexual activity. She's passive aggressive so sometimes when she doesn't agree, she'll go ahead with it. At the time I figured I was just being insecure and that things would blow over and we would chat about it. 

She brought it home and put it in bedside drawer. Then she moved it to the walk in closet on my side. I suspect because of our 4 year old daughter who might stumble across this. I came back from a few days away with work and it was back by her beside drawer. I didn't think much of it until she left over the weekend.

We spoke on the phone and i asked her if she had it on her and if she had used it while I was away a few days ago. She said yes. I just asked her if she had considered how I might feel about this and she said no. 

She usually needs space to think and perhaps debrief with sisters etc before coming back to me. That's where we are right now. 

It's the secrecy and hiding around that bothers me + lack of intimacy. As it stands, the machine has seen more action than me in 2018....



Blondilocks said:


> OK, I'll ask - how did you find out?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

William brings up a good point about the word intimacy. And Pat does have a history of using the word intimacy to mean sexual intimacy.

What I am seeing here is a total breakdown of intimacy. When pat says "She usually needs space to think and perhaps debrief with sisters etc before coming back to me." I see that using the vibrator as a substitute for sexual intimacy, is only part of the intimacy problem, as she uses her sister as a substitute for intimate conversation. Pat uses business as a substitute for Quality time. And he uses Snooping as a substitute for the emotional intimacy that he is craving. In fact there is no intimacy left in this marriage. It has all been contracted out. I think Livvie's warning about pushing her away has come way too late.

Now you may not like what I am saying here. But there is certainly a problem here and your connections are getting weaker, because you share no intimacy.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

PatJourno said:


> To answer your question: no I haven't.
> 
> You're VERY right....there is something much wider happening in my relationship. Counselling sessions have been helping but obviously there's more work to do done going forward.


It's very simple, your wife needs to want to bang you.

Being in your feelings, observing her vibrator usage is only going to push her away, and thus the vicious cycle beginnings...

..and you're discussing it? I call BS on the fact that after all your talks, she doesn't know that her not banging you would not sit well with you.

Nothing wrong with taking the vibrator on the trip but of course that's fun she gets to have pressure free without you anywhere near her.

More than likely when she comes home she'll be satisfied... which sucks for you.

So what are you going to do about it?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You can't compete with 1200 r.p.m. 

Read Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay and work on upping your game. Stop dwelling on this and start treating yourself better. Be your own man and maybe, just maybe she will re-gain her attraction to you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> You can't compete with 1200 r.p.m.
> 
> Read Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay and work on upping your game. Stop dwelling on this and start treating yourself better. Be your own man and maybe, just maybe she will re-gain her attraction to you.


No human can compete with those rpms. However, in this world of accessible vibrators women still opt for sex with their partner if the partner is someone they are drawn to. A vibrator doesn't change that.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

PJ,

That's a tough blow to the ego to be pushed aside by a vibrator, does she give a reason why she doesn't want sex with YOU?

One major problem is that your W is lying about the most important aspect of your marriage, at least to a man.

Are you sure she's not have an affair on these trips? Has she had one in the past or has she said I love you but am not in love with you?

Time to keep quiet and go 007 with snooping.

Tamat


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So let me get this straight. You and your wife have been having trouble discussing sex. You haven't been having much sex. But when you asked her about the vibrator and using it she answered you honestly and the first thing you do is tell her your upset about the vibrator.

🙈

You think this will improve your discussions? Make her feel safe opening up to you sexually?

Perhaps a better response would have been thanks for letting me know. Maybe when you get back we can use it together, as you know I enjoy having sex with you and miss it. 

Or if your having trouble wait till the next counseling session. 

Obviously you don't want her replacing you with a vibrator but my read here is sex was absent before too.

Women need to feel safe and desired to enjoy sex. You've now taken safe away and probably made her wonder why didn't I tell him yeah I took it so our daughter wouldn't find it but no I haven't used it. Teach her to hide her sexuality instead of sharing it.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Up until now she says she hasn't felt like having sex as much. Having a baby changed that for her she says. I guess the vibrator is helping her find her mojo back which is great.



TAMAT said:


> PJ,
> 
> That's a tough blow to the ego to be pushed aside by a vibrator, does she give a reason why she doesn't want sex with YOU?
> 
> ...


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

PatJourno said:


> Up until now she says she hasn't felt like having sex as much. Having a baby changed that for her she says. I guess the vibrator is helping her find her mojo back which is great.


It's great if it includes you, but if it only includes a device....then not so much.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Wife brings the vibe on business trips.

I assume she also brings her laptop. 

Sounds like a Skype moment in the making. This could be all kinds of fun. Nothing wrong with this if she might be willing to share. Sounds like this may be a tough sell at this point, but it could be a possible way to turn this into a very intimate positive.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

When you do have sex, is it good? Do you bring her to orgasm one way or the other?

I’m pretty sure you mentioned earlier about being tired and finding the right time. That’s on you really. Your intimacy is a two way street...you both have to make time. It’s not just up to her. 

If I was sexually dissatisfied with my lover, needed release, AND discovered how wonderful a vibrator was, I would take that sucker with me too!

And I would be pretty pissed if my lover dictated to me when and where I could use it if he wasn’t helping row the boat 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Good point! 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Wife brings the vibe on business trips.
> 
> I assume she also brings her laptop.
> 
> Sounds like a Skype moment in the making. This could be all kinds of fun. Nothing wrong with this if she might be willing to share. Sounds like this may be a tough sell at this point, but it could be a possible way to turn this into a very intimate positive.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm not suggesting I dictate how it is used. I'm merely pointing out that an honest conversation about this is required. I don't think I'm asking for much. Let's be honest about sex that's all.




Elizabeth001 said:


> When you do have sex, is it good? Do you bring her to orgasm one way or the other?
> 
> I’m pretty sure you mentioned earlier about being tired and finding the right time. That’s on you really. Your intimacy is a two way street...you both have to make time. It’s not just up to her.
> 
> ...


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

PatJourno said:


> I'm not suggesting I dictate how it is used. I'm merely pointing out that an honest conversation about this is required. I don't think I'm asking for much. Let's be honest about sex that's all.




Ok. My bet would be that if you had been having honest conversation all along, you would know that she is not sexually satisfied. I don’t believe that most women would choose an object over a man if the sex and intimacy were healthy. On a regular basis anyway. There are times when I like mine just ‘cause  BUT...if it’s REPLACING your sexual relationship, there’s a reason. I think most of the posters have been trying to tell you this. 

So...your problem is not the vibrator...it’s communication and has been for some time evidently. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

To clarify, you are concentrating too hard on the SYMPTOM instead of the root cause. 


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks for that. Clearly that's one of the things I've picked up from this conversation...there are clearer other issues taking place altogether 



Elizabeth001 said:


> To clarify, you are concentrating too hard on the SYMPTOM instead of the root cause.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Livvie said:


> No human can compete with those rpms. However, in this world of accessible vibrators women still opt for sex with their partner if the partner is someone they are drawn to. A vibrator doesn't change that.


Yeah. Hence what I said. If he ups his game, _maybe _she might on the off-chance be attracted to him again. But he cannot hinge his hopes on that. Women only have sex with men they are attracted to. She's not attracted to him. The vibrator is not the problem, just a symptom. 

If it were me, I'd walk. I'm not one of those patient guys who is willing to jump through fiery hoops, tap dance and swim the English Channel to try to get a woman to desire me. A woman either desires her man or she doesn't, and in this case she doesn't.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> To clarify, you are concentrating too hard on the SYMPTOM instead of the root cause.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But that is often the case on TAM


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Elizabeth001 said:


> So...your problem is not the vibrator...it’s communication and has been for some time evidently.


It's not the communication. Go back and read what he wrote. He has been communicating his dissatisfaction with her behavior for some time now. He's been talking his ass off trying to get her to meet him halfway. She is the one with the communication problem: namely, she's too much of a chicken sh*t to come out and be honest with him about how she feels about him. She knows if she does he will be hurt and he'll walk...and her perfect little family life will come tumbling down. 

This isn't a new song. Same old tune.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*A vibrator is fantasy sex, and just a surrogate for the real deal!

If she's not getting what she needs through normal channels, then I'd greatly think that she'll quickly turn to her long, pulsating, plastic, "inorganic friend," or at least entertain finding herself an "organic friend" to go and play with!*


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

PatJourno said:


> To answer your question: no I haven't.
> 
> You're VERY right....there is something much wider happening in my relationship. Counselling sessions have been helping but obviously there's more work to do done going forward.


Are you certain she is alone on this trip?


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## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> Are you certain she is alone on this trip?


Yes, and are you sure she's not Skype-ing someone else and the vibrator is merely a "prop" for the show? Perhaps you should do some further investigative work.

Please don't rule anything out. Obviously there's a "problem" somewhere and this "problem" could be occurring out in Cyberspace.

Best of luck to you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OP, have you used the vibrator with her during sex? Is it possible its the only way she can O these days?

Also if here libido has changed, are there any medical issues, or long term medication including birth control?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Usually, it's the more sexual partner who's masturbating the most. His wife is clearly masturbating. The OP hasn't in a month or more. So, clearly his wife is interested in orgasms, in sex, and is a sexual person. She doesn't, however, seem interested in more sex _with her husband_. 

Hence the repeated, and still unanswered by the OP, questions regarding whether or not sex is good for her when they do have it. If she's the more sexual partner and isn't having orgasms when they're together, then I can totally see why she'd just DIY it rather than coming to him for sex. It's not a healthy marital dynamic, but I could definitely understand it. 

So, once again OP, is sex good for your wife when you do have it?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Don't jump to the conclusion that she is cheating. She may or may not be. Do some sleuthing but keep it discreet.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Interesting responses to this situation I find myself in. My natural reaction once she returns is to withdraw emotionally but I also know that doesn't help the situation. 

Appreciate the different perspectives re this.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

PatJourno said:


> Interesting responses to this situation I find myself in. My natural reaction once she returns is to withdraw emotionally but I also know that doesn't help the situation.
> 
> Appreciate the different perspectives re this.


FYI, as many women can't reach an orgasm by PIV only, for around $15, you can purchase a small vibrating toy to wear on the base of your unit. The combination of PIV with vibrating 'the man in the boat' has been very effective in my experience.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Livvie said:


> What trust has been broken??? She's on a business trip away from you, it's not like she can have sex with you while she's away.
> 
> I think you are going to push her waaaay away about this subject, and generally, if you keep focusing on the fact that she is away on a business trip and brought her vibrator with her.
> 
> I'd leave out all discussion about the vibrator period, trip or no trip and focus solely on why you aren't having a more regular sex life. But, not right now while she is away for business.


She can have sex with others. It wouldn’t be the first time a spouse has danced in the sheets on a business trip. The fact that she won’t have sex with her husband helps support this. She is obviously still very sexual.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> She is the one with the communication problem: namely, she's too much of a chicken sh*t to come out and be honest with him about how she feels about him. She knows if she does he will be hurt and he'll walk...and her perfect little family life will come tumbling down.
> 
> This isn't a new song. Same old tune.


QFTFT!

Now, insert whatever pronoun into the appropriate spots and you have the basis for most of the threads in this forum.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

anastasia6 said:


> So let me get this straight. You and your wife have been having trouble discussing sex. You haven't been having much sex. But when you asked her about the vibrator and using it she answered you honestly and the first thing you do is tell her your upset about the vibrator.
> 
> 🙈
> 
> ...


The problem with your assumption is the issue with no sex has been going on for four years. His wife just bought the vibrator in December. 

She is having sexual urges just not for her husband for four years now.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Rowan said:


> Usually, it's the more sexual partner who's masturbating the most. His wife is clearly masturbating. The OP hasn't in a month or more. So, clearly his wife is interested in orgasms, in sex, and is a sexual person. She doesn't, however, seem interested in more sex _with her husband_.
> 
> Hence the repeated, and still unanswered by the OP, questions regarding whether or not sex is good for her when they do have it. If she's the more sexual partner and isn't having orgasms when they're together, then I can totally see why she'd just DIY it rather than coming to him for sex. It's not a healthy marital dynamic, but I could definitely understand it.
> 
> So, once again OP, is sex good for your wife when you do have it?


Yabbut the obvious often goes unnoticed by those with an axe to grind.


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## colingrant (Nov 6, 2017)

I'd be somewhere between okay and ecstatic if my wife was a vibrator user. Depends whether she denied me due to the vibrator. Your wife lost a little bit of her libido after the birth. But the fact that she still wants to get off is huge, as it indicates some type of desire. I'd MUCH rather have a live sexual being of a wife than one that has lost interest altogether. But that's just me.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

My point exactly the vibrator isn't the problem. She lost her desire long ago. If he wants to have her enjoy sex WITH him he has to make her comfortable enough to be open about her sexuality. 

One suggestion was skype masterbating with his wife. That's a very vulnerable thing for her to do. Why would she do that when he is shutting down that avenue. 

It can be very difficult to say what you want or need sexually from your partner even when you trust them. It's impossible if you worry about judgement or disappointment.


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## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

ABHale said:


> The problem with your assumption is the issue with no sex has been going on for four years. His wife just bought the vibrator in December.


That's not that long ago really. In fact, she's still probably learning how to use it. If she comes home with a chipped tooth, you'll know.:lol:


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

It could be much worse. She could be using another man's penis instead of a vibrator. The only party of your sitch that would bother me is she's getting it on with a vibrator and you haven't gotten any in a month. That sucks. If she was curling your toes but still using her vibe to supplement then it would be ok.

How's your bedroom game? Do you need to step it up a notch? Have you sat her down and had a heart to heart talk? Will she be honest or withhold truths to spare your feelings?


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

We've had the chat many times and things are great when it happens.

This new toy is getting more action it seems.



VermiciousKnid said:


> It could be much worse. She could be using another man's penis instead of a vibrator. The only party of your sitch that would bother me is she's getting it on with a vibrator and you haven't gotten any in a month. That sucks. If she was curling your toes but still using her vibe to supplement then it would be ok.
> 
> How's your bedroom game? Do you need to step it up a notch? Have you sat her down and had a heart to heart talk? Will she be honest or withhold truths to spare your feelings?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

If you have to beg your wife for sex, that is not marriage. How much longer do you plan on putting up with this garbage?


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I will never, never, never be in a sexless relationship again. It's Hell and if your wife doesn't respect your feelings about intimacy, you have a lot of thinking to do brother. Take it from an expert who learned the hard, stupid, idiot way.


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## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

Here is what I would do, I would take a ballpein hammer and smash it to bits in front of her. Not say anything 


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

I wanted to add that my gf and I have been through a set of "D" batteries already and it's only been a couple of months. "Mr. V" is a part of almost every "encounter," but we have found a couple of positions where she climaxes without it (she normally has several "O's every time, and we've figured out how to get her there without Mr. V, something new to her). You and your wife are missing out if you don't embrace it together. If she wants to only solo with it at the expense of your sex life then you have a real problem. Believe me I know.


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## Cromer (Nov 25, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I haven't read your other threads, so I don't know anything of your story beyond this thread. Taking the vibrator on business trips, or using it while you are away from home, neither of these is a major concern. I take mine on trips, or use it when I am at my place alone (apart from my boyfriend, who has his own place). What is a concern is that the two of you haven't had sex in over a month, and I get the impression that she has been using the vibrator at home when she could have been having sex with her husband.
> 
> It's one thing if she's using the vibrator to warm herself up before you get home, or while waiting for you to join her in the bedroom. But using it as a replacement for sex with her partner is very problematic.
> 
> ...


Damn straight. FiP I love your posts. :smile2:


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Cromer said:


> Damn straight. FiP I love your posts. :smile2:


Thanks 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks for this.



Cromer said:


> I wanted to add that my gf and I have been through a set of "D" batteries already and it's only been a couple of months. "Mr. V" is a part of almost every "encounter," but we have found a couple of positions where she climaxes without it (she normally has several "O's every time, and we've figured out how to get her there without Mr. V, something new to her). You and your wife are missing out if you don't embrace it together. If she wants to only solo with it at the expense of your sex life then you have a real problem. Believe me I know.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

He hasn't really answered the question of does she O often prior to the vibe. Or if he has foreplay game.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I completely agree with you - but apparently some people don't. 

I know my wife sometimes uses her vibrator on days when she turns me down for sex. (Its a little rude of me to keep track, but I notice when its moved). I'm willing to do anything she wants in bed including just using the vibrator on her. (she denies masturbating if asked - I've never pushed the issue)


I don't know why some people feel this is OK, but they do. 

Like most people, I masturbate, but I almost never turn her down for sex. 




FeministInPink said:


> I haven't read your other threads, so I don't know anything of your story beyond this thread. Taking the vibrator on business trips, or using it while you are away from home, neither of these is a major concern. I take mine on trips, or use it when I am at my place alone (apart from my boyfriend, who has his own place). What is a concern is that the two of you haven't had sex in over a month, and I get the impression that she has been using the vibrator at home when she could have been having sex with her husband.
> 
> It's one thing if she's using the vibrator to warm herself up before you get home, or while waiting for you to join her in the bedroom. But using it as a replacement for sex with her partner is very problematic.
> 
> ...


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Pat what really is the underlining issue the vibrator or the lack of sex with you...if its the latter then the question becomes is the vibrator a substitution for not having sex with you? let not muddy the waters with taking it on a trip...
is she back from her trip and have you spoken about the underlining issue?


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

She's not into foreplay as much as I am. I love foreplay

I didn't even know or ask prior to the vibe. 



anastasia6 said:


> He hasn't really answered the question of does she O often prior to the vibe. Or if he has foreplay game.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

PatJourno said:


> She's not into foreplay as much as I am. I love foreplay
> 
> ***me thinks you must be doing it wrong
> 
> ...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> She's been using her vibrator in secret which I found out last night. I was really hurt by this. She's currently on a business trip and took it with her. A few days ago, I was away and she used it again.


Most people masturbate in their own time. The fact that your wife uses a vibrator during masturbation shouldn't surprise you, nor should it be considered a secret that she is keeping from you.

Being reasonable you should presume your wife masturbates. Likewise you should also presume she might use a masturbatory aid or aids with varying frequency when she masturbates.



PatJourno said:


> We haven't had sex in over a month now but there's definitely an increase in usage.


Why haven't you had sex in over a month?

How often have you initiated sex during that time?

What do you do that is sexually suggestive/flirting etc throughout any give day prior to initiating sex?

How do you initiate sex?

Do you initiate sex or are you avoiding initiating?

If you are avoiding initiating why?

How does your wife orgasm, in other words what gets her there?

What does foreplay look like, what do you do to her during foreplay and what is her response to what you do?



PatJourno said:


> I confronted her on the phone about and she was shocked that I knew about all this. She says she hadn't considered how I would feel about it. I find that hard to believe.


Of course she hasn't considered how you would feel. Her vibrator is just a tool that she uses as a masturbatory aid, masturbation is often a private thing. It is unfortunate that you find it hard to believe. 

It's a shame you confronted her about it, shaming your wife for masturbating will not improve your sex life with her or your marriage.



PatJourno said:


> Any ideas to help me see or understand what's going on here?


Do you want to keep protecting your ego or have better sex (you can't have both)?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> I guess with running a business, being a Dad and family man, I just haven't had the urge to find a quiet corner and masturbate. It's not religious at all. I've been swamped with stuff.


Your lack of desire for sexual release does not make for a good sexual partner.

When it comes to sex ignore your wife at your own peril, and that doesn't mean supplication to her or putting her on a pedestal.

Your wife is more than a hole for your ego, to fit into when you have a spare moment.



PatJourno said:


> Daughter's 4 and our sex life has slowed down a LOT over the years. Mrs says after the daughter was born she hasn't been interested in sex. Intimacy in our marriage has been an issue admittedly. We've spoken about it a great deal.


You are ego protective.

If I were your wife I would be inclined to tell you, I wasn't interested in sex after the child, instead of telling you I found sex with you to be disappointing.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> As it stands, the machine has seen more action than me in 2018....


That machine helps your wife to scratch the itch that you are not scratching.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> Yes.
> 
> And, purely hypothetically, if her partner makes himself available, and shows some degree of desire.
> 
> ...


Indeed.

His availability is questionable and that primal desire (absent sex he doesn't masturbate) also seems wanting as well.

All while shaming her for masturbating by proxy (the vibrator).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

PatJourno said:


> I didn't even know or ask prior to the vibe.


If that inadequate response is your answer about your wife's orgasm, you really shouldn't be surprised she's self serving while not sharing much sex with you.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

Personal said:


> That machine helps your wife to scratch the itch that you are not scratching.


Yes, and by all means, please make sure a fresh set of batteries are on hand. At the very least, you don't want her looking for an additional pleasure substitute in the form of a male.

Ramp up your game, its the fourth quarter now and you don't want to lose this one.

Best of luck to you with all of this.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

PatJourno said:


> I didn't even know or ask prior to the vibe.


You don't know whether or not your wife of many years has been having orgasms during sex with you?

So, that's a "no" then. 

Also, the fact that you didn't know and never asked says a great deal about you and the level of both awareness and engagement you have with your wife. None of it good. 

:slap:


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think you guys are being harsh with this guy., He has said he has tried to engage her multiple times and she will not talk to him in any productive way.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

...


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I know it may not seem fair but women (in general bash away) have trouble discussing sex. Many have never O ever so that don't even realize how good sex can be. Society, religion and culture often dictates that 'good' women aren't sexual and even if all that weren't true. Nobody wants to have a conversation that goes sex is meh for me and I really don't care if we have it or not. Another issue not even touched on here because the focus has been the vibrator. Beyond probably not fulfilling sexual needs does OP know what her other needs are and are they being met?

Children definitely slow things down but it often exacerbates unmet needs causing resentment.

I would suggest MC.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Anastasia, wrote....

*Many have never O ever so that don't even realize how good sex can be.*

I think this is why in some cases female infidelity is so devastating, the wife feels inhibited with her husband because she wants him to respect her, but has no such inhibitions with the OM and the sex is very very good. 

I think that's how my W viewed OM1, he was a throw away, and she saw no future with him, but she loved him intensely all the more. She went back to me, but I was always lacking in her eyes after that.

Tamat


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Pat is she finally home to have the talk with?


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

I would be happy if my wife brought along her vibrator when she was on a business trip. It means she is not contemplating cheater. My wife uses her vibrator all the time, even when we are having sex together. We still do all the emotional bonding stuff but she gets her best orgasms from her vibrator so that is all I care about. It does become a problem if she is using it to the extent that it interferes with your sex life or her life. I have been supplying vibrators to my wife and our girlfriend for 45 years. Sometimes they do not use them, sometimes they use them after I give them their first orgasm and sometimes they use to for their first orgasm and then I give them a few more.

Most women have their best orgasms by their vibrators and although that may be a blow to some male egos, their orgasm is my only concern, not how they got them. Women hide their vibrator use for fear of damaging the fragile egos of their husbands and boyfriends who equate the size of their penises and number of orgasms with how manly they are. I am very secure so if vibrators do it for them, great. We still have sex and find a way to incorporate a vibrator into it. If you watch enough porn you will see a vibrator laying a bed in some of the amateur porn videos. It is a fact that most girls do not get their orgasms from intercourse alone. They need clitoral stimulation and a vibrator is better than a finger or tongue. Some of the new vibrators made for use on the clitoris can get some girls off in a few seconds. I never met a girl who inserted a dildo shaped vibrator. They all rubbed it on their clitoris. I am sure that some women enjoy using it as a dildo but most do not.

Tell your wife that you would like more sex and to bring along her vibrator. I kiss and caress my wife as she uses hers, if she feels like using it. You can also tell your wife that you will like to give her the first orgasm and she can use the vibrator for her second. As women get older it becomes harder to orgasm. I am married 45 years and I saw the progression. I am not insulted or feel less of a man because my goal is to let my wife experience the best orgasm that she can. Our girlfriend took a half an hour of my wife tag teaming her to reach her orgasm. With her vibrator it only took 10 minutes. My wife orgasms in under 3 minutes by any type of stimulation on her clitoris. Sometimes if I warm her up good during foreplay she will start to orgasm as soon as my tongue touches her clitoris. She has a very good orgasm that way but her vibe leaves her exhausted from the sheer intensity of her orgasm. The goal is to both have great orgasms any way you can.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Apologies. I misunderstood your question around ''O''. Yes more often than not, she has an "O" when we have sex.




Rowan said:


> You don't know whether or not your wife of many years has been having orgasms during sex with you?
> 
> So, that's a "no" then.
> 
> ...


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## VodkaR1 (Jan 17, 2018)

Wow. Its all about perspectives I guess. Wife loves her toy. Loves a good bath too  We both look at porn sometimes when the other isnt around. It has never bothered me. Id prefere she take it on a trip than hook up with another person.

I cant wait for the day I catch her solo. Shes very sneaky about that though. Rofl


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Rowan said:


> You don't know whether or not your wife of many years has been having orgasms during sex with you?
> 
> So, that's a "no" then.


Lots of women are not comfortable discussing it. If she never volunteered that info, and he never asked, how would he know?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Lots of women are not comfortable discussing it. If she never volunteered that info, and he never asked, how would he know?


The OP has since clarified that he believes that his wife is having orgasms, at least for the most part. 

However, why wouldn't he ask? If you're not sure about something, asking is the way to find out. Not asking would convey the impression that you do not care. Not caring whether your partner is enjoying sex makes you a bad lover. 

Also, if you cannot tell whether or not your female partner is having orgasms when you are intimate, then chances are pretty good that she is not. Which is, again, why it would be prudent to ask rather than appear to simply not care. 

If a partner is faking orgasms, that's on them. But at least do your part and ask the question if you're not sure and aren't experienced enough to be able to tell without asking.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Rowan said:


> However, why wouldn't he ask? If you're not sure about something, asking is the way to find out. Not asking would convey the impression that you do not care. Not caring whether your partner is enjoying sex makes you a bad lover.


You wouldn't ask because it is an embarassing subject. Why make your wife feel bad about herself by asking whether or not her equipment is performing as it should? If it doesn't, she doesn't need you harping on that fact.

As for "bad lover", the old saying about "there is no bad pizza, there is no bad sex" applies. It's still sex.



> Also, if you cannot tell whether or not your female partner is having orgasms when you are intimate, then chances are pretty good that she is not.


Maybe you just aren't paying attention? You know, you're in your own little fantasy world and what is happening in the real world (outside of your penis, haha) is not really registering.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> You wouldn't ask because it is an embarassing subject. Why make your wife feel bad about herself by asking whether or not her equipment is performing as it should? If it doesn't, she doesn't need you harping on that fact.
> 
> As for "bad lover", the old saying about "there is no bad pizza, there is no bad sex" applies. It's still sex.
> 
> ...




Dude. I'm a woman. So, I'm not sure whether that last bit was an attempted swipe at me. But it appears you agree with me anyway. If someone doesn't know whether their partner is orgasming during sex, it's because they aren't paying attention. Paying attention to your partner during sex is a good thing. As is honest communication about sex. Both are necessary ingredients of a mutually fulfilling sex life for both partners. And, yes, there is such a thing as bad sex.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

if it were me, i would be happy that she took the vibrator instead of a 12 pack of condoms!

Sounds like you need to have more sex together....she is very horny, but not getting it from you. that is a eventual recipe for disaster.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Rowan said:


> If someone doesn't know whether their partner is orgasming during sex, it's because they aren't paying attention. Paying attention to your partner during sex is a good thing. As is honest communication about sex. Both are necessary ingredients of a mutually fulfilling sex life for both partners. And, yes, there is such a thing as bad sex.


Look, I don't know how women do it, but for men, a lot of energy and focus has to go towards the person you are imagining you are with, so you can remain aroused and eventually have an orgasm. It's why people have sex in the dark, less chance you'll get distracted and lose.... it.... ruining the whole thing.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Look, I don't know how women do it, but for men, *a lot of energy and focus has to go towards the person you are imagining you are with, so you can remain aroused and eventually have an orgasm*. It's why people have sex in the dark, less chance you'll get distracted and lose.... it.... ruining the whole thing.


If that's how you have sex, it's no wonder you're happier with pornography and masturbation. Wow.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Look, I don't know how women do it, but *for men, a lot of energy and focus has to go towards the person you are imagining you are with*, so you can remain aroused and eventually have an orgasm. It's why people have sex in the dark, less chance you'll get distracted and lose.... it.... ruining the whole thing.


Seriously? You'd be distracted and lose your erection if you had to see and/or interact with the person you're actually having sex with? :surprise:


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

minimalME said:


> Seriously? You'd be distracted and lose your erection if you had to see and/or interact with the person you're actually having sex with? :surprise:


Well we've been together for five years, at this point there is nothing left to keep my attention/attraction. But when I close my eyes, that woman is new and exciting.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Look, I don't know how women do it, but for men, a lot of energy and focus has to go towards the person you are imagining you are with, so you can remain aroused and eventually have an orgasm. *It's why people have sex in the dark, less chance you'll get distracted and lose.... it.... ruining the whole thing.*


Or why 'some' partners close their eyes while in the midst of intercourse. :frown2:

Remember, on the backside of those closed eyelids is a motion picture screen.
And one's mind projects whatever fantasy that takes them to a satisfying conclusion onto that vivid screen.

Total honesty [opening up] is not always a good thing. Have mercy on those you love. Bite your tongue.

SunCMars-


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Well we've been together for five years, at this point there is nothing left to keep my attention/attraction. But when I close my eyes, that woman is new and exciting.


Just five years and you can't respond to your SO? 

I'm not one to jump on the "porn is the cause" bandwagon, but egad, man! Your relationship is still a baby and you're acting like it's a wrinkled up octogenarian on oxygen. 

I've been married 30 years and my wife is still the most gorgeous woman on the planet; she is the only thing I want to think about when we make love, and looking at her in the throes of passion is far more likely to make me "lose it" in a way of overexcitement than losing excitement, if you know what I mean. If I close my eyes, it's to last longer for her. 

This is how it should be/how it can be, if you're putting the right focus on your marriage, your union, your life together, and your love for one another. Thinking about others during times of intimacy, means you're actually abandoning intimacy. It is a sure fire way to poor sex and a poor relationship. 

Again, I can see why you're happier with masturbation. You're just using your wife's vagina to masturbate you penis. You're not making any attempt at intimacy at all.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I've been married 30 years and my wife is still the most gorgeous woman on the planet; she is the only thing I want to think about when we make love, and looking at her in the throes of passion is far more likely to make me "lose it" in a way of overexcitement than losing excitement, if you know what I mean. If I close my eyes, it's to last longer for her.


Makes me _so_ happy to hear from the men who adore their wives.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Just five years and you can't respond to your SO?
> 
> I'm not one to jump on the "porn is the cause" bandwagon, but egad, man! Your relationship is still a baby and you're acting like it's a wrinkled up octogenarian on oxygen.


The porn usage began after the marriage, though. Never really had a use for it before then.



> I've been married 30 years and my wife is still the most gorgeous woman on the planet; she is the only thing I want to think about when we make love, and looking at her in the throes of passion is far more likely to make me "lose it" in a way of overexcitement than losing excitement, if you know what I mean. If I close my eyes, it's to last longer for her.


Glad to hear that. My wife was never "the most goregeous woman" or even physically/personally attractive to me. She was the one woman at the time willing to have sex with me and misled me about her birth control usage. Now we are married with two children.



> This is how it should be/how it can be, if you're putting the right focus on your marriage, your union, your life together, and your love for one another. Thinking about others during times of intimacy, means you're actually abandoning intimacy. It is a sure fire way to poor sex and a poor relationship.
> 
> Again, I can see why you're happier with masturbation. You're just using your wife's vagina to masturbate you penis. You're not making any attempt at intimacy at all.


The thought of being "intimate" with anybody in an emotional sense gives me nausea. I want to avoid that as much as possible.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> The porn usage began after the marriage, though. Never really had a use for it before then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, it seems you've dug yourself a serious hole here. 

The thing about holes is that, once you find yourself in one, maybe you ought to stop digging.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

What does that even mean?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Todd Haberdasher said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Just five years and you can't respond to your SO?
> ...


She "misled" you twice about birth control, or just one and it resulted in twins?

You don't sound like someone who should be married.


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## Todd Haberdasher (Apr 23, 2017)

Livvie said:


> She "misled" you twice about birth control, or just one and it resulted in twins?


It happened twice but the second time I don't really have anybody to blame for but me. "Fool me twice, won't get fooled again" as George W. Bush said.



> You don't sound like someone who should be married.


I am a person with two children. I don't want them to be homeless/hungry.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

PatJourno said:


> When she bought it with her girlfriend in December, I expressed my feelings about a vibrator given our lack of sexual activity. She's passive aggressive so sometimes when she doesn't agree, she'll go ahead with it.


She doesn't agree with you and does it anyway. So she's being passive aggressive because she has a mind of her own and doesn't obey you? 

You call her passive aggressive for not obeying you.
You tell her how YOU feel about her buying a vibrator.
You have the gall to ask her if she wondered how YOU felt about her using it.

You told us it was a month since you and she had sex, but you never answered the question of whether you tried to initiate. You never stated that she turned out down. I haven't read your other threads, but someone else mentioned you and she have had problems in the bedroom for four years. I don't understand you wondering why or complaining about it. You have an extremely strange way of viewing your wife. Kind of prehistoric archaic and beyond selfish. Your wife is not your possession. She's not a piece of furniture or your receptacle. She's probably tired of your closed mind and archaic way of thinking. She is sexually disatisfied because you don't or can't the way she needs to be satisfied and clearly don't try to learn. As someone else stated, women are shy and reluctant to formulate the idea that "you are not good in bed" by whatever terms might express it to be less hurtful. And what a lot of people don't realize is women don't even know what they need until someone (or something in this case) shows them. Even if you are not as well endowed as her substitute, you could have spent your marriage finding out how to satisfy her. You did some kind of searches to find this place. You could have been doing some searches to find out how to please your woman. You could have gone to a bookstore or library. You could have purchased some teaching videos. You could have done something/anything since it is obvious that "low libido" and "not in the mood" are clearly NOT her problem. She had to go and BUY something for that so-called non-existent libido for when she's never in the mood. But after four years and I don't know how many threads on this forum, you still have not figured it out. 

I do realize a lot of people project their own sadness regarding their own sex life, but I think you have allowed them to convince you that the problems in your bedroom are HER fault. I know you received responses teling you how "she doesn't love you" and "she doesn't respect you" and they "wouldn't put up with that" and all that jazz. But that's not always the case. It's not usually the case. If a woman doesn't want sex because she doesn't love or respect her husband, then she doesn't want a vibrator either. So you need to quit listening to them and start figuring out some other things.

It's been almost three weeks now since you began this thread. I'm not really wondering why you haven't updated on the talk. Did she put you in your place? Did you finally get the clue that you have to up your game for real and not just say it?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

@PatJourno how are things going between yourself and wife, have you both come to a meeting of the minds?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Hello Pat. I think you have had some good insights and advice so far (apart from Todd Haberdasher who is bitter about his life and marriage and very disrespectful to his wife). 

There are two main points here which I will take separately and then in combination.

So separately ...

Your wife uses a vibrator. Fantastic. She knows how to get herself off and enjoys it hopefully. You should be happy that she does not look for sexual satisfaction elsewhere when she is travelling and remains loyal to you. This should not be of concern to you in any way on its own.

The two of you are not having sex (or not having sex regularly enough). There has got to be a reason for this and I do not think you know the reason - yet. You really need to find out why. In order to do this, you will need to also take a good look at yourself. Is there something that you say or do (intentionally or not) that puts her off. Does she not enjoy the sex anymore? Is the situation one that makes it difficult for her to have sex with you (especially when you want to) e.g. is she a night person and you a day person etc. You really, really need to focus on this much more than the vibrator. This is what majority of people on this thread are trying to get you to do.

Now, in combination ...

Given that you are not having sex together, and she is having increased vibrator usage, I can see why you are hurt/concerned. I agree with those that say don't make her feel self-conscious about using the vibrator (you have kind of done this already to some extent and need to repair that). So first try and find out why you are not having sex. Period. Nothing to do with the vibrator. While working on that tell her how hot it is that she is using a vibrator and you would love to be part of that. Not for personal sexual satisfaction but in participating in her pleasure - unselfishly and genuinely. That is the first step in getting her to open up to the fact that she can use her vibrator, you can help in a meaningful way without expecting anything back in return and you genuinely getting off on that. It is one of the hottest experiences for me when I help my wife get off using toys etc. And I do not always expect or get PIV sex in return. Sometimes the look on her face is enough for me. You need to get there and more importantly, you need to convince your wife that you are there - that you really enjoy helping her use the vibrator. This should open the door to some of the wildest sex you will experience further down the line.

So in summary, don't focus on the vibrator, find out why you are not having sex, genuinely offer to help her get off with the vibrator because you enjoy doing so but do not expect anything in return. Tall order, I know but worth pursuing.

Hope this helps.


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## PatJourno (Dec 24, 2017)

Thank you for checking in....

In short: there are wider issues in our marriages that need working on, both on my side and her side. Her childhood was a difficult one. Some issues I know has been swept under the carpet for years. For us to move forward, we need to address those issues....



Lostinthought61 said:


> @PatJourno how are things going between yourself and wife, have you both come to a meeting of the minds?


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