# Girlfriend Drinks In Other Guy's Hotel Room



## SidLeShane

My girlfriend of 5 years (we share a home together) was away on business and started conversing and regularly going for drinks with a male (married) co-worker in our age group. 

After several hangouts, she agrees to an invitation from him to have some drinks, alone with him, down the hall in his hotel room. 

She mentions it to me casually, after the fact, as if expecting me to consider it normal behavior. I disregard the fact that we've been having troubles communicating calmly and effectively lately. Oh, and that the communication issue has led to less frequent physical intimacy. 

It's something that I wouldn't have done were roles reversed, personally, just because I have boundaries and wouldn't see as it appropriate...mainly because of 1. what other co-workers might extrapolate if they knew about it, and 2. how it would get my girlfriend's mind racing unnecessarily. 

When she told me, I expressed concern, calmly, carefully in the form of a question, so as not to be condescending or antagonistic, about number 1 first. Before I could even bring up number 2, she started to get loudly defensive, saying I should trust her judgement, trust that guy I've never met, et cetera. 

The discussion ended in a loud argument, though I tried to keep my cool as long as I could. She just kept yelling until I hung up on her so that I wouldn't lose control and start tearing back into her verbally. 

Kinda lost. I feel disrespected. Don't know if I'm being unreasonable.


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## toonaive

She is your girlfriend and did this? This my friend is your way out!. End this! and move on with your life. This girl has no boundaries, and will eventually be causing alot of problems for you. You do not want to be on the end of another 20 years, with children, to have finally had enough of your wifes cheating.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening
This depends on a lot of things. There are some people for whom it would be OK, but I expect most people would not be comfortable with this situation. 

It would not bother me if it were my wife, but I'm quite unusual.


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## Maneo

based on what you've described it sounds like she is overly defensive about this. That could be for a couple reasons. One, she knows it really may not be appropriate behavior either personally or professionally so compensates by getting defensive. Two, something did happen which is another reason to act overly defensive. A third possibility is your two have other relationship stresses and this was just another blow up symptomatic of those other problems.
I've had a drink in my room or someone else's room when on a business trip but there have always been 3 or more people present so there was no hint of anything else going on. I don't know what profession she is in, but a man and woman having drinks in one of their hotel rooms is the sort of thing that can get tongues wagging at work and possibly lead to more dire consequences.


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## SARAHMCD

Having drinks alone in a hotel room with an opposite sex co-worker? Not cool. She's either very naive or something else is going on. Either way, you are not being unreasonable at all.


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## Rowan

So, apparently you're not okay with your partner spending time alone in other men's hotel rooms. Good to know. 

Your girlfriend is apparently down with spending time alone in other men's hotel rooms. Also good to know.

This is your girlfriend, not your wife. Excellent to know!

You're not crazy, you're not over-reacting. Your girlfriend has, at minimum, _very_ poor boundaries with men. If you're not okay with her doing stuff like that, then she's not the girl for you. 

Dating is like a job interview for the position of spouse. Your girlfriend just failed the job interview.


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## BetrayedDad

Not married, no kids. BAIL! She has horrible boundaries.

It's only a matter of time before some guy gets his Johnson past the goal line. 

At best she was testing the waters and looking for an ego boot. 

At worst, she already slept with him. Either one are strong possibilities.

She mentioned it casually out of guilt. So she could clear HER conscious. 

Guilty people typically become VERY defensive. It's a huge red flag.

You were disrespected and you are being completely reasonable.

She's NOT wife material..... Don't ruin your life by settling for this slvt.


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## ConanHub

She is riding the sausage train to skanktown my friend.

Have all of her stuff packed in garbage bags ready out front for when she gets back.

Be glad you didn't marry this lizard woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yeswecan

Time to throw in the towel. Your GF appears to be the good girl at home. At work 'conferences' she is someone entirely different. At this point, for me, I would call it quits as she has no boundaries, goes to work and hangs out like it a sorority/frat party. This activity never ends well.


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## Yeswecan

ConanHub said:


> She is riding the sausage train to skanktown my friend.
> 
> Have all of her stuff packed in garbage bags ready out front for when she gets back.
> 
> Be glad you didn't marry this lizard woman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep....


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## Lostinthought61

i think its time to find a new girl friend, whether it was innocent or not, its about boundaries and she apparently suffers from lack of them and if this is not addressed by her alone, will only display worse issues in the future for the both of you. I strongly suggest you sell the house and move on. you may disregard this warning now or live with the consequences in the future. the choice is yours


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## Clay2013

Time to move on. She probably got defensive because there is more to the story and she doesn't want you questioning her. 

I would tell her good luck and you wish her the best with him.

C


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## SadSamIAm

I agree that this can be troublesome, but I also think it can be nothing.

In my line of business I see this happen fairly often. It all depends on the circumstance. 

While at a conference, it is fairly normal for people to meet in each others rooms before an event at the conference. For example, nothing going on for a couple of hours in the conference, so you have a drink before the 'Ice Breaker' starts. I can easily see a couple of opposite sex co-workers doing this. Yes, alone in one of their hotel rooms.

But if this was to happen after the 'Ice Breaker' when everyone is heading home for the night, then it would be a different story. The invitation for a drink at that time would have most likely been an invitation for much more than a drink.

So when did this happen. Was it late at night? Was it just to kill time before supper? Was it very late at night after drinks at a bar?


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## ReidWright

telling you was either a 'fitness test' or a 'boiling the frog' disclosure. She either wanted to see if you'd mind (you do!), and/or see what she can pass by you. Or maybe she knows other coworkers will start talking about them, em, 'having drinks', and she wanted to dilute it before it hit your ears.

I bet this Married coworker's wife would be real interested in why her husband was inviting pretty young girls back to his hotel room for some late night drinks.

Call her and tell her, asap.


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## bandit.45

Dump her.


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## GusPolinski

SidLeShane said:


> My girlfriend of 5 years (we share a home together) was away on business and started conversing and regularly going for drinks with a male (married) co-worker in our age group.
> 
> After several hangouts, she agrees to an invitation from him to have some drinks, alone with him, down the hall in his hotel room.
> 
> She mentions it to me casually, after the fact, as if expecting me to consider it normal behavior. I disregard the fact that we've been having troubles communicating calmly and effectively lately. Oh, and that the communication issue has led to less frequent physical intimacy.
> 
> It's something that I wouldn't have done were roles reversed, personally, just because I have boundaries and wouldn't see as it appropriate...mainly because of 1. what other co-workers might extrapolate if they knew about it, and 2. how it would get my girlfriend's mind racing unnecessarily.
> 
> When she told me, I expressed concern, calmly, carefully in the form of a question, so as not to be condescending or antagonistic, about number 1 first. Before I could even bring up number 2, she started to get loudly defensive, saying I should trust her judgement, trust that guy I've never met, et cetera.
> 
> The discussion ended in a loud argument, though I tried to keep my cool as long as I could. She just kept yelling until I hung up on her so that I wouldn't lose control and start tearing back into her verbally.
> 
> Kinda lost. I feel disrespected.


That's because you've been disrespected.



SidLeShane said:


> Don't know if I'm being unreasonable.


You're not.


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## SidLeShane

Thank you all for your input. It's hard to give up hope on someone you love. I'm glad to have the support toward the end I'm leaning to.


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## morituri

No successful relationship is possible under the circumstances you describe in your present situation.


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## zillard

Nope. Kick rocks, babe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA

That could be her pushing you to break up with her. You're both unhappy at the moment, she goes into a man's hotel room, baits you with it then blows up at you for not being okay about it. Sounds like sabotage to me. Probably a good idea to give her what she wants imo, and move on.


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## arbitrator

Rowan said:


> So, apparently you're not okay with your partner spending time alone in other men's hotel rooms. Good to know.
> 
> Your girlfriend is apparently down with spending time alone in other men's hotel rooms. Also good to know.
> 
> This is your girlfriend, not your wife. Excellent to know!
> 
> You're not crazy, you're not over-reacting. Your girlfriend has, at minimum, _very_ poor boundaries with men. If you're not okay with her doing stuff like that, then she's not the girl for you.
> 
> *Dating is like a job interview for the position of spouse. Your girlfriend just failed the job interview.*


* Rowan has summarized it more than beautifully! 

If this woman can't honor a simple boundary within the due course of a "trusted" pre-marital relationship, then what even remotely makes you think that marriage is going go make it any better? ~ In essence, she has failed "this test" miserably; and because she is so vociferously defending her actions, she has so aptly demonstrated why she should not be considered as marriage material!

If you were actually shallow enough to fall for this and then subsequently go ahead and follow through and marry her, you'd be jumping out of the proverbial frying pan and into the fire!

She needs to be lost like a bad habit!
You deserve far, far better!*


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## life_huppens

I think it is a time to say good by to this relationship. Dump her. This is how she behaves when you not around. Imagine her when you have kids and house and real responsibilities. Married life is not only fun there are real day to day monatomic tasks. Can you trust her on been faithful. Apparently she was boarded on business trip...and needed extra fun... How convenient. I could understand if she had drink at the hotel bar, but in his room? You are done with her. Move on.


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## LonelyinLove

People I work with routinely have meetings in their hotel suites.

Could be something, could be nothing at all.


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## seasalt

She's wrong and her getting loud doesn't make her right it probably makes her guilty.

Just sayin',

Seasalt


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## bandit.45

breeze said:


> That could be her pushing you to break up with her. You're both unhappy at the moment, she goes into a man's hotel room, baits you with it then blows up at you for not being okay about it. Sounds like sabotage to me. Probably a good idea to give her what she wants imo, and move on.


:iagree:

Breeze, you nailed it. 

I had an ex-girlfriend who did this exact same thing. She wanted to break up, but she did not want to be the bad guy so she started doing a bunch of passive aggressive acting out b.s. to make me mad so that I would be the villain and break up with her. Of course, she then told everyone that I was the one who dissolved the relationship, when in reality she was seeing another guy secretly behind my back. It worked out perfectly for her.


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## bandit.45

LonelyinLove said:


> People I work with routinely have meetings in their hotel suites.
> 
> Could be something, could be nothing at all.


Yeah...

And the people you work with may be shagging each other rotten too...and you would never know for sure.


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## LonelyinLove

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah...
> 
> And the people you work with may be fvcking each other like bunnies too...and you would never know for sure.


Oh. give me a break.

These are meetings with multiple attendees around a table in a suite.

And I know because sometimes I am there too.

What two consenting adults do after the meeting is not my concern.


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## bandit.45

SidLeShane said:


> Thank you all for your input. It's hard to give up hope on someone you love. I'm glad to have the support toward the end I'm leaning to.


Sid, ask your precious GF how she would feel if she found out a female coworker went with you to have a drink in your hotel room alone.

The fact that she blew up on you is all you need to know. That's the defensive behavior of someone who has something to hide.


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## bandit.45

LonelyinLove said:


> Oh. give me a break.
> 
> These are meetings with multiple attendees around a table in a suite.
> 
> And I know because sometimes I am there too.
> 
> What two consenting adults do after the meeting is not my concern.


Yeah, but that's not what happened here is it?


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## LonelyinLove

bandit.45 said:


> Yeah, but that's not what happened here is it?


Just playing the devils advocate...

No one knows for sure what happened, no one knows the OP or the GF or the coworker.

It is all speculation at best.

I'm just offering what I know from traveling for business.


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## Rowan

SidLeShane said:


> My girlfriend of 5 years (we share a home together) was away on business and started conversing *and regularly going for drinks *with a male (married) co-worker in our age group.
> 
> *After several hangouts*, she agrees to an invitation from him *to have some drinks, alone with him, down the hall in his hotel room*.





LonelyinLove said:


> Just playing the devils advocate...
> 
> No one knows for sure what happened, no one knows the OP or the GF or the coworker.
> 
> It is all speculation at best.
> 
> I'm just offering what I know from traveling for business.


With respect, LonelyinLove, this is not a few coworkers around a conference table in a hotel suite. Yes, sometimes business groups do meet in hotel suites. Hey, there might even be a legitimate reason for a pair of opposite-sex co-workers to meet in a hotel suite to go over something during the course of the business day at a conference. But there's pretty much no reason for a married man and his unmarried female co-worker to have drinks at the bar and then take it back to his room for more "drinks".


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## LonelyinLove

maybe I should be less business minded cause that's all I think about on trips, and I assume everyone else is the same....LOL


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## GusPolinski

LonelyinLove said:


> *People I work with routinely have meetings in their hotel suites.*
> 
> Could be something, could be nothing at all.


LOL.


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## GusPolinski

LonelyinLove said:


> Oh. give me a break.
> 
> These are meetings with multiple attendees around a table in a suite.
> 
> And I know because sometimes I am there too.
> 
> *What two consenting adults do after the meeting is not my concern.*


Unless one of them happens to be your spouse or SO.


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## bandit.45

LonelyinLove said:


> Just playing the devils advocate...
> 
> No one knows for sure what happened, no one knows the OP or the GF or the coworker.
> 
> It is all speculation at best.
> 
> I'm just offering what I know from traveling for business.


Exactly... I'm not saying you are wrong. All I am saying is that it was very disrespectful of her to go to another man's room and drink with him when she has a committed boyfriend waiting back home for her. 

If you were my girlfriend I would expect you to be furious with me if I pulled a stunt like that.


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## AliceA

I have to wonder if *anyone* would actually (I mean honest to goodness really okay with it and not just bs'ing) be totally cool with their spouse starting to regularly meet up with a co-worker (of whatever sex they are attracted to) for drinks and then one night going up to their co-workers *hotel room* for more drinks, just them, for no other reason than to be spending time together.


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## Lordhavok

Dump her, and make sure his wife finds out about it. Bet she wont be to pleased about it either.


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## naiveonedave

breeze said:


> I have to wonder if *anyone* would actually (I mean honest to goodness really okay with it and not just bs'ing) be totally cool with their spouse starting to regularly meet up with a co-worker (of whatever sex they are attracted to) for drinks and then one night going up to their co-workers *hotel room* for more drinks, just them, for no other reason than to be spending time together.


Even if there is 'no' PA, it is still a date. I firmly believed that married folks and those committed to be monogamous should not be going on a date with someone other than their spouse/significant other.


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## Wolf1974

LonelyinLove said:


> Just playing the devils advocate...
> 
> No one knows for sure what happened, no one knows the OP or the GF or the coworker.
> 
> It is all speculation at best.
> 
> I'm just offering what I know from traveling for business.


But we do know that he had a concern, she dismissed it and became confrontational about it. If you can't even have a calm discussion with a SO about something that concerns you then you aren't going to get on the same page about it. Communication is way too important in a relationship and if you can't share your concerns then you're with the wrong person .


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## F-102

10-to-1, she was "trickle truthing" you. She only admitted to drinks with this guy. 10-to-1, there is more, much MUCH MORE, than she is admitting.


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## farsidejunky

"GF, would you be okay with me drinking in a motel room with a female, alone?"

"No? Then why should I tolerate it from you?"

"Yes? Then clearly our values are not compatible. Good bye."


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## RoseAglow

It could be nothing. I've done it before, often. My OS co-worker and I would meet in the hotel room, with drinks, to go over presentations, brain-storm, de-brief, etc. A hotel room meant that no one else in the lobby/bar/restaurant would see our work stuff. We did this regularly for years. We also hung out at bars outside of work, and went to see shows together. He was actually a friend first- he recommended me for a job later on. Nothing sexual ever happened between us- we are still friends, he and his now wife were at my wedding. 

BUT- it's been many years since I've worked in that job. I was single back then. I do know that it is quite possible to have OS friendships where nothing ever happens to cross the line. However, my husband would not be comfortable with it, I wouldn't do it. 

This friend and I both travel sometimes for work. On rare occasion (maybe once every 4-5 years) we end up being nearby. The last time, he was in our neck of the woods, so Husband and I met him for dinner. Sometimes, Friend and I are without our spouses, and we will meet up for dinner. Even though we know each other spouses and are friends, we don't go to each other's hotel rooms anymore. 

So- this is a long way of saying, it's possible that nothing happened. But, if you're not comfortable with it (and you have every right to feel that way), it's a very reasonable boundary to set.


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## nirvana

I would just tell her that I am not comfortable with it and she should talk to him outside in the lobby, not in his room over drinks. You have to draw the line and not worry about her drama. Be firm. If she crosses the link again, break up. Better now than after you are married and she sleeps around.

It could very well be nothing at all, but if she does not care about your feelings, then you don't need to be with her. She can consider this to be a shyt test.


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## Marduk

Let's break it down rationally, shall we?

Option 1: it was purely business and nothing happened. So, best-case scenario. Except that it isn't -- the way she disclosed it was as a **** test. She didn't call you up to say "honey, I'm going back to Dave's hotel room to chat about X and Y, call you in a half hour when we're done" which would have been respectful. She didn't say "babe, I met up with Dave to chat about X and Y in his room, I know that might sound weird but I promise it was all on the up and up." Or any other of a million respectful things. It was a shot across the bow to see how you'd respond. You failed because you lost your cool.

Option 2: it was a flirtatious event, but nothing major happened, and she wants to de-guilt and normalize her behaviour. A not quite worst case scenario but still shows the state of decay in your relationship. 

Option 3: she boned him.

Either option, to me, has the same strategy now: let her go.

"girlfriend, I'm just not the kind of guy that rolls with this kind of thing, and I don't want us to be the kind of couple where we each hang out drinking in other people's hotel rooms alone. I don't think we fit, and it's time I moved forward in my life to find someone that does."


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## tom67

marduk said:


> Let's break it down rationally, shall we?
> 
> Option 1: it was purely business and nothing happened. So, best-case scenario. Except that it isn't -- the way she disclosed it was as a **** test. She didn't call you up to say "honey, I'm going back to Dave's hotel room to chat about X and Y, call you in a half hour when we're done" which would have been respectful. She didn't say "babe, I met up with Dave to chat about X and Y in his room, I know that might sound weird but I promise it was all on the up and up." Or any other of a million respectful things. It was a shot across the bow to see how you'd respond. You failed because you lost your cool.
> 
> Option 2: it was a flirtatious event, but nothing major happened, and she wants to de-guilt and normalize her behaviour. A not quite worst case scenario but still shows the state of decay in your relationship.
> 
> Option 3: she boned him.
> 
> Either option, to me, has the same strategy now: let her go.
> 
> "girlfriend, I'm just not the kind of guy that rolls with this kind of thing, and I don't want us to be the kind of couple where we each hang out drinking in other people's hotel rooms alone. I don't think we fit, and it's time I moved forward in my life to find someone that does."


Yes it was a shyt test and a life lesson but you will look back and consider yourself lucky.
I forgot who said it earlier but find a way to contact his wife it is the right thing to do imo.


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## nirvana

marduk said:


> Let's break it down rationally, shall we?
> 
> Option 1: it was purely business and nothing happened. So, best-case scenario. Except that it isn't -- the way she disclosed it was as a **** test. She didn't call you up to say "honey, I'm going back to Dave's hotel room to chat about X and Y, call you in a half hour when we're done" which would have been respectful. She didn't say "babe, I met up with Dave to chat about X and Y in his room, I know that might sound weird but I promise it was all on the up and up." Or any other of a million respectful things. It was a shot across the bow to see how you'd respond. You failed because you lost your cool.
> 
> Option 2: it was a flirtatious event, but nothing major happened, and she wants to de-guilt and normalize her behaviour. A not quite worst case scenario but still shows the state of decay in your relationship.
> 
> Option 3: she boned him.
> 
> Either option, to me, has the same strategy now: let her go.
> 
> "girlfriend, I'm just not the kind of guy that rolls with this kind of thing, and I don't want us to be the kind of couple where we each hang out drinking in other people's hotel rooms alone. I don't think we fit, and it's time I moved forward in my life to find someone that does."


Great analysis!

I still think he should give her ONE more chance. Draw the red line, make it very clear that this is the last chance. If it happens again, he calmly breaks up and no one can complain.


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## zillard

RoseAglow said:


> It could be nothing. I've done it before, often. My OS co-worker and I would meet in the hotel room, with drinks, to go over presentations, brain-storm, de-brief, etc. A hotel room meant that no one else in the lobby/bar/restaurant would see our work stuff. We did this regularly for years. We also hung out at bars outside of work, and went to see shows together. He was actually a friend first- he recommended me for a job later on. Nothing sexual ever happened between us- we are still friends, he and his now wife were at my wedding.
> 
> BUT- it's been many years since I've worked in that job. I was single back then. I do know that it is quite possible to have OS friendships where nothing ever happens to cross the line. However, my husband would not be comfortable with it, I wouldn't do it.
> 
> This friend and I both travel sometimes for work. On rare occasion (maybe once every 4-5 years) we end up being nearby. The last time, he was in our neck of the woods, so Husband and I met him for dinner. Sometimes, Friend and I are without our spouses, and we will meet up for dinner. Even though we know each other spouses and are friends, we don't go to each other's hotel rooms anymore.
> 
> So- this is a long way of saying, it's possible that nothing happened. But, if you're not comfortable with it (and you have every right to feel that way), it's a very reasonable boundary to set.


I hear ya, and you have some good points. 

However, what he described is 

a. Drinks in and out of room, multiple locations so not due to any sensitive data etc

And b. Escalation from frequent drinks out and about possibly with others to an invite to drink alone in hotel room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

nirvana said:


> Great analysis!
> 
> I still think he should give her ONE more chance. Draw the red line, make it very clear that this is the last chance. If it happens again, he calmly breaks up and no one can complain.


This conversation is her chance.

If she responds in a respectful way that is about boundaries and respect, you give it a shot.

If she doesn't, you thank her for the past 5 years and move on.


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## Yeswecan

At the end of the day...a bar is the place to meet coworkers for a few drinks. The room is a place to meet a coworker for a few drinks and possibly more. 

Stop kidding ourselves here. Test the water as it were. 


It just happened.....yadda, BS...sure thing...
It was not my intentions. Just a drink. It was all very innocent work related. I pulled out my pie chart. He pulled his pen. It was a successful merger.


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## ConanHub

LonelyinLove said:


> Oh. give me a break.
> 
> These are meetings with multiple attendees around a table in a suite.
> 
> And I know because sometimes I am there too.
> 
> What two consenting adults do after the meeting is not my concern.


The situation you are describing is somewhat different than what has been described in the OP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

ConanHub said:


> The situation you are describing is somewhat different than what has been described in the OP.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Hey meet me at my room before breakfast" or before X session... Fine. 

"Meet me to go over our strategy before lunch"...Fine. 

"Let's go back to my room for a drink or two"... danger Will Robinson.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WonkyNinja

SidLeShane said:


> My girlfriend of 5 years (we share a home together) was away on business and started conversing and regularly going for drinks with a male (married) co-worker in our age group.
> 
> After several hangouts, she agrees to an invitation from him to have some drinks, alone with him, down the hall in his hotel room.
> 
> She mentions it to me casually, after the fact, as if expecting me to consider it normal behavior. I disregard the fact that we've been having troubles communicating calmly and effectively lately. Oh, and that the communication issue has led to less frequent physical intimacy.
> 
> It's something that I wouldn't have done were roles reversed, personally, just because I have boundaries and wouldn't see as it appropriate...mainly because of 1. what other co-workers might extrapolate if they knew about it, and 2. how it would get my girlfriend's mind racing unnecessarily.
> 
> When she told me, I expressed concern, calmly, carefully in the form of a question, so as not to be condescending or antagonistic, about number 1 first. Before I could even bring up number 2, she started to get loudly defensive, saying I should trust her judgement, trust that guy I've never met, et cetera.
> 
> The discussion ended in a loud argument, though I tried to keep my cool as long as I could. She just kept yelling until I hung up on her so that I wouldn't lose control and start tearing back into her verbally.
> 
> Kinda lost. I feel disrespected. Don't know if I'm being unreasonable.


Normally I'm almost alone in this group having no problem with other sex friends in a relationship and this wouldn't be an issue for me.

If she's away on business then it's normal to socialize with your colleagues after work. There are some who think that their SO should go back to their room and stay there but that's BS in my book.

However I'd probably wonder why they didn't sit in the hotel bar or lounge and have drinks and why they had to go to his room. After saying that in my case I trust my fiancee and I would still have no problem with it.

I think the problem here is that you are already having relationship issues and the angry response that you got. The fact that you don't trust her is the bigger issue for me.


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## Rowan

WonkyNinja said:


> The fact that you don't trust her is the bigger issue for me.


I don't trust anyone with verifiably crappy boundaries.....


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## tom67

OP when she comes back IF you want to give her a chance act like you forgot what she said and don't bring it up.

Get two voice activated recorders leave one in her car and one in the house and a pen var for her purse.

You must have had some gut feelings before this.
Check her undies.


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## WonkyNinja

breeze said:


> I have to wonder if *anyone* would actually (I mean honest to goodness really okay with it and not just bs'ing) be totally cool with their spouse starting to regularly meet up with a co-worker (of whatever sex they are attracted to) for drinks and then one night going up to their co-workers *hotel room* for more drinks, just them, for no other reason than to be spending time together.


I would. 

My fiancee has many OSFs some that she works with and some that she doesn't. If she's away at a conference or business trip I would far rather she hang out with someone that she's friends with and enjoys their company than sit alone in her room. 

But then I trust her that nothing out of friendship would happen, if that is likely then our relationship would be in a bad way anyway.

I'm certainly not going to tell her who she can and cannot hang out with she's a fully grown adult and I am not her keeper.


----------



## zillard

Rowan said:


> I don't trust anyone with verifiably crappy boundaries.....


I don't trust OS humans, drinking, in hotel rooms, with nobody else around. 

So very few good reasons for that to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

WonkyNinja said:


> Normally I'm almost alone in this group having no problem with other sex friends in a relationship and this wouldn't be an issue for me.
> 
> If she's away on business then it's normal to socialize with your colleagues after work. There are some who think that their SO should go back to their room and stay there but that's BS in my book.
> 
> However I'd probably wonder why they didn't sit in the hotel bar or lounge and have drinks and why they had to go to his room. After saying that in my case I trust my fiancee and I would still have no problem with it.
> 
> I think the problem here is that you are already having relationship issues and the angry response that you got. The fact that you don't trust her is the bigger issue for me.


Either it's an anomalous behaviour that he's seen in the past 5 years, which threw a red flag for him...

Or he's not the kind of guy that has this level of implicit trust in a partner (like me).

Either way is bad, for different reasons.


----------



## GusPolinski

WonkyNinja said:


> Normally I'm almost alone in this group having no problem with other sex friends in a relationship and this wouldn't be an issue for me.
> 
> If she's away on business then it's normal to socialize with your colleagues after work. There are some who think that their SO should go back to their room and stay there but that's BS in my book.
> 
> However I'd probably wonder why they didn't sit in the hotel bar or lounge and have drinks and why they had to go to his room. After saying that in my case I trust my fiancee and I would still have no problem with it.
> 
> I think the problem here is that you are already having relationship issues and the angry response that you got. The fact that you don't trust her is the bigger issue for me.


Trust is earned, and primarily by refraining from doing the types of things that would cause any reasonable person to not trust you.


----------



## nirvana

My wife/gf going to another guy's room for drinks is a big NO NO for me. That makes it a date in my mind. And my woman cannot appreciate my view on this, then she does not have to be my woman.
In the same way, if I spend time chilling with a 22 year old hottie from work in a bar or in her apartment, she has all cause to be mad at me or even kick my ass to the curb.

I am amazed some women here think it is okay and twist the circumstances the OP is describing to make it benign. How would they feel if their husband/bf was out with a 20 year old in her room? They would go postal and the other ladies would cheer her on.

Still, in this case, ONE more chance is what I would give. OP should not fight with her, but draw the line and tell her what will happen if she does it again. If she does, then she is out, no argument.


----------



## zillard

The problem with one more chance, Nirvana, is his knowing if it happened again. 

She likely wouldn't tell him again, nor tell him more if this was downplayed, without being caught. 

To save a marriage, might be worth it to investigate. For a GF? 

Well, that's up to him. But with her reaction already I'd stick a pin in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

perly said:


> It's so easy for people to advise ending a 5 year relationship over what could be nothing.
> 
> If it was nothing, then she was offended by his lack of trust for good reason.
> 
> If it was something, when why would she even tell him she was alone with a guy in a hotel room?
> 
> Learn to trust your relationship partner and not take such strong advice from people that don't know you at all. Things will go better for you.


Man do I ever miss my 20's.

So young. So naive.

So dumb.


----------



## zillard

perly said:


> It's so easy for people to advise ending a 5 year relationship over what could be nothing.
> 
> If it was nothing, then she was offended by his lack of trust for good reason.
> 
> If it was something, when why would she even tell him she was alone with a guy in a hotel room?
> 
> Learn to trust your relationship partner and not take such strong advice from people that don't know you at all. Things will go better for you.


Maybe nothing happened. That's certainly possible. 

But he has every right to NOT be OK with what did happen. If he isn't completely OK with it, and she expects him to be, they are likely incompatible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

perly said:


> It's so easy for people to advise ending a 5 year relationship over what could be nothing.


It's so easy to say "just trust me" even as someone puts your relationship into question for a reason that is fundamentally ungrounded.

What did she get out of having a drink in his hotel room alone? Why is that important to her? Why now? Why him?

There are lots of people that wouldn't be fussed by this kind of thing at all. Those kinds of people should either find ways to limit their behaviour unless it's really important, or find like minded people that won't have a problem with it. It's obvious that the OP isn't one of those people.



> If it was nothing, then she was offended by his lack of trust for good reason.


If it was nothing, then she also had no reason to do it, and exhibit behaviour that was likely new in their 5 year relationship.

See, that line of reasoning goes both ways. 



> If it was something, when why would she even tell him she was alone with a guy in a hotel room?


It's called "normalization" and "guilt displacement."

I once had a buddy come to me very distraught when I was younger. He sat me down and told me he ****ed up and slept with a girl that had a boyfriend.

He didn't know it before they had sex. He found out after, when she freaked out, called her boyfriend to tell her that she went back to his place but they were just friends and nothing happened and it was just to talk.

It's quite common in the literature if you care to read it. It's also been called "tickle truth."

Even the CIA does it:


> A limited hangout or partial hangout is, according to Victor Marchetti, former special assistant to the Deputy Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, "spy jargon for a favorite and frequently used gimmick of the clandestine professionals. *When their veil of secrecy is shredded and they can no longer rely on a phony cover story to misinform the public, they resort to admitting—sometimes even volunteering—some of the truth while still managing to withhold the key and damaging facts in the case. The public, however, is usually so intrigued by the new information that it never thinks to pursue the matter further.*"


- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout

It's an interesting facet of human psychology.



> Learn to trust your relationship partner and not take such strong advice from people that don't know you at all. Things will go better for you.


Trust is earned. Red flag behaviours limit trust, and the one throwing the red flag knows it.

And you can usually tell by how much they get upset about the 'accusation' and how much they overlook their own behaviour.



> "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"


- Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III Scene II

If she would have said "oh, I didn't realize that would upset you, and I think this is acceptable behaviour, and wouldn't be upset with you if you did this. Is there some way that I can make you feel better about this if it happens again, like calling you before or after I do?"

That would be a vastly different, and innocent, response.


----------



## SidLeShane

I guess to clarify here:

This guy she works with... They don't have a common project, there are no numbers goals to work on together. They are both from the same company with drastically different jobs/divisions, there regularly for different reasons. I don't know the guy, will never meet him (lives in a different state), and as her trips to this location will be ongoing month to month, they will be and have been in proximity often. 

On this particular night, she said they were getting ready to go to a jazz club to meet "someone else". One thing I noticed, EVERY other time she's gone out, she's sent me a picture of her and some of the other people she was out with at the table. This time, all I got was a picture of the jazz group. Maybe I'm crazy or paranoid, but it really stands out to me. 

But I've caught her in trickle-truths and flat out lies before on things where she knew her boundary decisions were iffy and might cause me to become jealous or cause a fight. I've been trying to remain forgiving and trusting, but obviously this does not help. 

I'm tired of this game five years into the relationship. It is almost like she just doesn't learn anything about how to avoid these situations. Nothing changes, and sonetimes her decisions cause her interpersonal drama at work. Then I have ended up supporting her through it, emotionally. 

I have had girls be forward with me, proffer invitations for things, and I don't respond or accept because I believe it would be disrespectful to my girl to put myself in potentially flirty situations. I won't play the game back--I could start hanging out at bars, tell her I went back to a girl's place for "drinks only, I swear", when she is away, and making sure she knows about it, and I'm sure it would make her antsy, but I'd like to be bigger than that--not act like I'm so superior as to "teach her a lesson" and show her what it is to doubt and question. 

Maybe I'm just too patient. I feel like I am caught up in not trying to give up on someone I love just because they aren't perfect.


----------



## GusPolinski

SidLeShane said:


> Maybe I'm just too patient. I feel like I am caught up in not trying to give up on someone I love just because they aren't perfect.


FWIW, there is a pretty wide berth between "not perfect" and what you've presented here.


----------



## bandit.45

No you are not too patient. You are too nice to her, and that is part and parcel of why she does not respect you. 

Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover, and then apply what you have learned. It will open your eyes.


----------



## Marduk

She's not ready to settle down.

Let her go and be single.


----------



## Rowan

SidLeShane said:


> But I've caught her in trickle-truths and flat out lies before on things where she knew her boundary decisions were iffy and might cause me to become jealous or cause a fight. I've been trying to remain forgiving and trusting, but obviously this does not help.
> 
> I'm tired of this game five years into the relationship. It is almost like she just doesn't learn anything about how to avoid these situations. Nothing changes, and sonetimes her decisions cause her interpersonal drama at work. Then I have ended up supporting her through it, emotionally.
> 
> ...
> 
> Maybe I'm just too patient. I feel like I am caught up in not trying to give up on someone I love just because they aren't perfect.


It sounds like you may be afraid to set boundaries regarding what you will an will not accept in a relationship. It really _is_ okay to decide that you won't be in a relationship with someone who repeatedly puts herself in questionable situations, makes choices that jeopardize her career, and lies to you about things.

By the way, the reason it seems like she 'just doesn't learn' is because there are no consequences for her when she behaves badly. She's actually learned what you've taught her just fine. But what you've taught her is that she can absolutely get away with things and all you'll do is scold then simmer back down and accept it. Is that the lesson you intended? If not, you might - again - look into establishing some boundaries for yourself on what you're willing to put up with.


----------



## zillard

If you are seeing a pattern of boundary issues, inconsistencies, and half truths... I wouldn't expect things to improve later on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> *No you are not too patient.* You are too nice to her, and that is part and parcel of why she does not respect you.
> 
> Read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Glover, and then apply what you have learned. It will open your eyes.


Uhhh... I'd argue that.


----------



## nirvana

zillard said:


> The problem with one more chance, Nirvana, is his knowing if it happened again.
> 
> She likely wouldn't tell him again, nor tell him more if this was downplayed, without being caught.
> 
> To save a marriage, might be worth it to investigate. For a GF?
> 
> Well, that's up to him. But with her reaction already I'd stick a pin in it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree with you but it looks like the OP was not watching her closely. I am sure he will be more vigilant for signs. I don't know their dynamics, but if she has lasted 5 years, she must be a good match for him. It isn't easy to find someone else that fits very well with you. As you say, he has to decide. I believe in 2nd chances and if she still thinks she did no wrong, then he should just move on. If she apologizes and promises not to do it again, then she stays.

Reading some more posts on her behavior makes me think that she needs to be kicked out.


----------



## Cynthia

nirvana said:


> I agree with you but it looks like the OP was not watching her closely. I am sure he will be more vigilant for signs. I don't know their dynamics, but if she has lasted 5 years, she must be a good match for him. It isn't easy to find someone else that fits very well with you. As you say, he has to decide. I believe in 2nd chances and if she still thinks she did no wrong, then he should just move on. If she apologizes and promises not to do it again, then she stays.
> 
> Reading some more posts on her behavior makes me think that she needs to be kicked out.


She has a pattern that already has him concerned. This is another issue now. She has now exceeded her second chance and it appears she is onto her 100th or so chance.
You have to ask yourself if you want to live like this for the rest of your life and parent with someone like this. If not, cut your loses and say goodbye.


----------



## TRy

SidLeShane said:


> This guy she works with... They don't have a common project, there are no numbers goals to work on together. They are both from the same company with drastically different jobs/divisions, there regularly for different reasons. I don't know the guy, will never meet him (lives in a different state), and as her trips to this location will be ongoing month to month, they will be and have been in proximity often.


 This means that their relationship is not for work, but because they enjoy each others company and want to get to know each other better.



SidLeShane said:


> On this particular night, she said they were getting ready to go to a jazz club to meet "someone else". One thing I noticed, EVERY other time she's gone out, she's sent me a picture of her and some of the other people she was out with at the table. This time, all I got was a picture of the jazz group. Maybe I'm crazy or paranoid, but it really stands out to me.


 Dating is to allow you and a viable member of the opposite sex the opportunity to see if you are comparable and to develop a relationship. Most dates do not involve sex. She can try to spin it all that she wants, but hanging out and drinking alone in his hotel room at night prior to going to a club with him is called a date.


----------



## leon1

Have you talked to her today ,has her attitude changed .


----------



## bandit.45

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... I'd argue that.


Oh...you would argue about the color of sh!t.


----------



## Marduk

leon1 said:


> Have you talked to her today ,has her attitude changed .


Expect some combination of:

- rug sweeping (acting like nothing happened)
- accusations
- declarations of privacy
- shaming
- new passwords on devices
- deleting email/text/call history


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> Oh...you would argue about the color of sh!t.


Hey now... poop can be lots of different colors.


----------



## weightlifter

No way to tell what happened.

RTBP's wife started with that.

"It happened" after about ?2? months of this stuff.


----------



## ReidWright

is your girl trying to hook up with this guy? maybe, maybe not. 

is this guy trying to hook up with your girl? Oh, hell yes!

is there any communication between them when she's home? check phones, email, etc.

I'd imagine he'd be trying to coordinate their next meeting a few days before her trip, etc.

find out his name, hometown, wife's name (google, radaris, spokeo, marriage records). If nothing has happened yet, prepare to do some mate guarding. Any coworkers with her you can pump for information?

how far is this business trip? can you 'surprise' her one night? or heck, if you need some definite proof, have a PI see what's they are up to.


----------



## arbitrator

LonelyinLove said:


> People I work with routinely have meetings in their hotel suites.
> 
> Could be something, could be nothing at all.


*But a married man and a married woman should never, ever be meeting alone together inside the confines of a hotel suite, unless of course, they are married to each other!

And while perhaps being physically and sexualy satisfying to both, in the long run, it's not really all that good for either of them personally or for their respective families!

And it damn well ain't all that beneficial for the business that they represent unless, of course, it's the porn industry! *


----------



## Hardtohandle

I've dealt with GF having guy boundary issues.. She would say the same thing.. I can say I loved her and I loved her kids but I dealt with that so much that it just broke my trust in her.. 

After almost 2 years I had to PAINFULLY let her go.. I run into bouts of depression every few days that send me to tears.. 

I posted about in my thread labeled mymistake in my signature.. 

It just is really unacceptable and it's a shame you think that way about not hurting her and she doesn't.. Which is pretty much again the issues I had.. I could swear she said these things to hurt me and control me.. Who knows.. 

That was one of the key things I told my ExGF.. I would NEVER do anything to make you think less of me to put you in a place to feel hurt.. But you do that to me all the time.. Its like you want me to feel insecure and hurt.. I don't get it.. What does that get you ? But get me upset with you? Is this what you want ? To fight ?

Trust me I'm 48 and hate that I wasted almost 2 years of my life dealing with this and I hate that I have feelings for her as well..

And I really do miss her kids as well.


----------



## RoseAglow

zillard said:


> I hear ya, and you have some good points.
> 
> However, what he described is
> 
> a. Drinks in and out of room, multiple locations so not due to any sensitive data etc
> 
> And b. *Escalation from frequent drinks out and about possibly with others to an invite to drink alone in hotel room.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent point. The escalation is a major item. 



marduk said:


> She's not ready to settle down.
> 
> Let her go and be single.


Yes. Don't take her acts personally, it's just where she is currently. It's nothing to do with you and everything to do with her.


----------



## alte Dame

I think she's being disingenuous when she says she doesn't see anything wrong with it. This isn't a co-worker that she has to huddle with for her work. She knows that.

When I was very young I was guilty of doing stupid things like this. I naively thought, 'We're just friends. He doesn't have any romantic/sexual intent. I trust him.'

I learned very quickly that what I was innocently assuming wasn't at all what the man in question was assuming & I would get myself into awkward situations.

I'm assuming she is old enough to know better. I bet she does.

I wouldn't accept this if I were you. I think you've been too understanding.


----------



## ConanHub

Could she at least Skype from the room with you so you could watch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator

ConanHub said:


> Could she at least Skype from the room with you so you could watch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Now that wouldn't really be any fun for the two in the room, would it?*


----------



## alexm

WonkyNinja said:


> Normally I'm almost alone in this group having no problem with other sex friends in a relationship and this wouldn't be an issue for me.
> 
> If she's away on business then it's normal to socialize with your colleagues after work. There are some who think that their SO should go back to their room and stay there but that's BS in my book.
> 
> However I'd probably wonder why they didn't sit in the hotel bar or lounge and have drinks and why they had to go to his room. After saying that in my case I trust my fiancee and I would still have no problem with it.
> 
> I think the problem here is that you are already having relationship issues and the angry response that you got. The fact that you don't trust her is the bigger issue for me.


I'm with you on this, for the most part, however I'm still not comfortable with it.

I trust my wife. She's bended some boundaries in the past, but not broken them (this, I have to trust). I talked to her about what my boundaries are, and she (eventually) understood.

So the issues that I had, mainly, were that it wasn't necessarily a lack of trust in my wife, but the optics of it all, and what it said to the other person/people, as well as what that makes ME look like. I believe this is what got through to my wife, as she hadn't really considered what something may LOOK like, as her mind wasn't really viewing these situations in that way.

What she heard when I said "that's not cool" was: "are you cheating on me?" Provided she wasn't, and provided her own view of said situation wasn't even remotely in that space, of course she'd be defensive, and even upset. FYI, I didn't let that get to me or influence me in any way - I didn't back down or allow her to minimize my feelings. These are my boundaries, this is what it looks like to me and others, knock it off.

Only your girlfriend and her co-worker knows what happened for sure, but don't jump to the lowest common denominator immediately. And don't be completely naive, either. In other words, don't talk yourself into thinking she cheated on you, or that she definitely didn't. Arrive at your own conclusions. I did. I'm confident nothing majorly untoward happened in my case, and I'm confident my wife understands and respects my boundaries (now). If I'm being naive, oh well. I don't have nearly enough reasonable doubt to believe otherwise, so I'm happy with the outcome.

For context, my issue was with how my wife handled attention from some male co-workers (she is literally the only woman in a very blue-collar environment). Now, I am not one to think that just because somebody is married that they have to tell somebody of the opposite sex to f-off if they get a little flirty with them. Everybody needs an ego boost once in a while, including married people. But she allowed some of them to cross the line (those are her words, not mine), to more sexual comments and flirtations. As in, long past the point of where she should have shut them down. I can't say that she particularly enjoyed what amounted to sexual harassment in the workplace, but she didn't exactly put a stop to it when they approached that area with her. Given that she's a rather non-sexual person to begin with, a compliment is a compliment as far as she is concerned, and she readily admits that she was naive about it. When I explained to her that people (men) don't make comments on a woman's breasts just for fun (ie. they wanna nail her), she didn't believe me. She knew those types of comments were sexual in nature, sure, but not that they necessarily meant that Joe Blow was fishing.

I have seen, first hand, her newfound ability to shut people down, and not just when I'm around, either. Facebook messages I've seen, like "only my husband gets to say that to me", for example, that she didn't type in front of me, or tell me about. Some guy "accidentally" sent a **** pic to her, which arrived when we were both sitting next to each other with the computer open. Good timing. She asked me to handle it, from her account, with her right in front of me, and no dictation of what to say. I'd have been concerned if she just deleted it without addressing it. Or if she said she'd handle it later. Or if I offered to handle it and she said no, she'd do it. None of that. She passed me the laptop and said "deal with this please". And I did. And I sent a message to his girlfriend (who's first name starts with the same letter as my wife's, so it WAS possible it was an accident, but still. Unlikely. I don't care. Be more careful.) Guy wasn't a co-worker, by the way, and no possibility they'll see each other, either.

So what I said about boundaries and what "fishing" is, and what's appropriate and inappropriate within a relationship, have sunk in, it seems.

Sometimes boundaries have to, unfortunately, be explicitly given. It's what your partner does with them that's the important thing in the long run.


----------



## TRy

ReidWright said:


> if you need some definite proof, have a PI see what's they are up to.


 A PI seeking for his client definite proof of infidelity (that would be good enough to be used in court for states that let infidelity impact alimony), would try to document them going into hotel rooms alone together at night, and of them clubbing and drinking together; rarely would a PI be able to get anything more definitive than that. Since the OP already definitively knows this already, what is the point of hiring a PI in this case?


----------



## zillard

TRy said:


> A PI seeking for his client definite proof of infidelity (that would be good enough to be used in court for states that let infidelity impact alimony), would try to document them going into hotel rooms alone together at night, and of them clubbing and drinking together; rarely would a PI be able to get anything more definitive than that. Since the OP already definitively knows this already, what is the point of hiring a PI in this case?


Why? Because everyone knows what happens in hotel rooms. 

Hanging out/drinking in a hotel room, absent a group situation, is akin to inviting someone to your bedroom. 

The kitchen, where most people gather, is the hotel bar. The lobby is the living room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sparrow555

SidLeShane said:


> I guess to clarify here:
> 
> This guy she works with... They don't have a common project, there are no numbers goals to work on together. They are both from the same company with drastically different jobs/divisions, there regularly for different reasons. I don't know the guy, will never meet him (lives in a different state), and as her trips to this location will be ongoing month to month, they will be and have been in proximity often.
> 
> On this particular night, she said they were getting ready to go to a jazz club to meet "someone else". One thing I noticed, EVERY other time she's gone out, she's sent me a picture of her and some of the other people she was out with at the table. This time, all I got was a picture of the jazz group. Maybe I'm crazy or paranoid, but it really stands out to me.
> 
> But I've caught her in trickle-truths and flat out lies before on things where she knew her boundary decisions were iffy and might cause me to become jealous or cause a fight. I've been trying to remain forgiving and trusting, but obviously this does not help.
> 
> I'm tired of this game five years into the relationship. It is almost like she just doesn't learn anything about how to avoid these situations. Nothing changes, and sonetimes her decisions cause her interpersonal drama at work. Then I have ended up supporting her through it, emotionally.
> 
> I have had girls be forward with me, proffer invitations for things, and I don't respond or accept because I believe it would be disrespectful to my girl to put myself in potentially flirty situations. I won't play the game back--I could start hanging out at bars, tell her I went back to a girl's place for "drinks only, I swear", when she is away, and making sure she knows about it, and I'm sure it would make her antsy, but I'd like to be bigger than that--not act like I'm so superior as to "teach her a lesson" and show her what it is to doubt and question.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too patient. I feel like I am caught up in not trying to give up on someone I love just because they aren't perfect.



based on how you described the situation, I wouldn't be surprised if she is cheating... She picked up the fight for a reason.


----------



## alexm

sparrow555 said:


> based on how you described the situation, I wouldn't be surprised if she is cheating... She picked up the fight for a reason.


I dunno, that's debatable at the very least.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but I don't quite see why somebody would openly mention to their partner that they (in this case) had a drink in some guys hotel room if there was actually more to it than that.

Guilt? Perhaps, but I don't see that as likely. If there was a chance of OP hearing about it from somebody else, then maybe she wanted to get out ahead of it, but OP would have to chime in here and tell us if that would have been a possibility in the first place.

To me, the only valid reason she would have told him about this (if something more happened) is that she's angling for a breakup and she doesn't want to be the bad guy.

Otherwise, I'm tending to lean towards her not thinking she did anything wrong, and was only making conversation.

As I said in my post above, some people just don't see the boundaries until they're explicitly told. If, for example, she doesn't see this co-worker of hers as being attractive AT ALL, and she's confident he has zero interest in her in that way, then her mind isn't going to go there.

To those of us who know that's not an excuse to bend boundaries, we see situations like this for what they LOOK like. For some others, they don't see, or think of, the optics involved.


----------



## ReidWright

TRy said:


> A PI seeking for his client definite proof of infidelity (that would be good enough to be used in court for states that let infidelity impact alimony), would try to document them going into hotel rooms alone together at night, and of them clubbing and drinking together; rarely would a PI be able to get anything more definitive than that. Since the OP already definitively knows this already, what is the point of hiring a PI in this case?


PI could report back IF they are holding hands, kissing, acting like a romantic couple, not just friendly coworkers having a drink after a long day of work.


----------



## TRy

alexm said:


> I don't quite see why somebody would openly mention to their partner that they (in this case) had a drink in some guys hotel room if there was actually more to it than that.


 I am guessing that at this point others at her work saw them together and they are worried that the OP might hear about it from the office rumor mill. In such situations, cheaters often drop such bombs in conversations with their significant other pretending as if such actions are normal.


----------



## TRy

ReidWright said:


> PI could report back IF they are holding hands, kissing, acting like a romantic couple, not just friendly coworkers having a drink after a long day of work.


 If they were bold enough to do this in public yes, but they could do all of those things and more in the hotel room, and unless they left the door of the hotel room open, the PI would have no proof to show. From my point of view, clubbing and hanging out drinking alone in a hotel room with another man at night would be enough for me. Remember she does not work on any projects, or even in the same office with this guy (different state even), so she is not seeing him as a coworker, but as a date.


----------



## Hardtohandle

alexm said:


> I'm with you on this, for the most part, however I'm still not comfortable with it.
> 
> I trust my wife. She's bended some boundaries in the past, but not broken them (this, I have to trust). I talked to her about what my boundaries are, and she (eventually) understood.
> 
> So the issues that I had, mainly, were that it wasn't necessarily a lack of trust in my wife, but the optics of it all, and what it said to the other person/people, as well as what that makes ME look like. I believe this is what got through to my wife, as she hadn't really considered what something may LOOK like, as her mind wasn't really viewing these situations in that way.
> 
> What she heard when I said "that's not cool" was: "are you cheating on me?" Provided she wasn't, and provided her own view of said situation wasn't even remotely in that space, of course she'd be defensive, and even upset. FYI, I didn't let that get to me or influence me in any way - I didn't back down or allow her to minimize my feelings. These are my boundaries, this is what it looks like to me and others, knock it off.
> 
> Only your girlfriend and her co-worker knows what happened for sure, but don't jump to the lowest common denominator immediately. And don't be completely naive, either. In other words, don't talk yourself into thinking she cheated on you, or that she definitely didn't. Arrive at your own conclusions. I did. I'm confident nothing majorly untoward happened in my case, and I'm confident my wife understands and respects my boundaries (now). If I'm being naive, oh well. I don't have nearly enough reasonable doubt to believe otherwise, so I'm happy with the outcome.
> 
> For context, my issue was with how my wife handled attention from some male co-workers (she is literally the only woman in a very blue-collar environment). Now, I am not one to think that just because somebody is married that they have to tell somebody of the opposite sex to f-off if they get a little flirty with them. Everybody needs an ego boost once in a while, including married people. But she allowed some of them to cross the line (those are her words, not mine), to more sexual comments and flirtations. As in, long past the point of where she should have shut them down. I can't say that she particularly enjoyed what amounted to sexual harassment in the workplace, but she didn't exactly put a stop to it when they approached that area with her. Given that she's a rather non-sexual person to begin with, a compliment is a compliment as far as she is concerned, and she readily admits that she was naive about it. When I explained to her that people (men) don't make comments on a woman's breasts just for fun (ie. they wanna nail her), she didn't believe me. She knew those types of comments were sexual in nature, sure, but not that they necessarily meant that Joe Blow was fishing.
> 
> I have seen, first hand, her newfound ability to shut people down, and not just when I'm around, either. Facebook messages I've seen, like "only my husband gets to say that to me", for example, that she didn't type in front of me, or tell me about. Some guy "accidentally" sent a **** pic to her, which arrived when we were both sitting next to each other with the computer open. Good timing. She asked me to handle it, from her account, with her right in front of me, and no dictation of what to say. I'd have been concerned if she just deleted it without addressing it. Or if she said she'd handle it later. Or if I offered to handle it and she said no, she'd do it. None of that. She passed me the laptop and said "deal with this please". And I did. And I sent a message to his girlfriend (who's first name starts with the same letter as my wife's, so it WAS possible it was an accident, but still. Unlikely. I don't care. Be more careful.) Guy wasn't a co-worker, by the way, and no possibility they'll see each other, either.
> 
> So what I said about boundaries and what "fishing" is, and what's appropriate and inappropriate within a relationship, have sunk in, it seems.
> 
> Sometimes boundaries have to, unfortunately, be explicitly given. It's what your partner does with them that's the important thing in the long run.


All I will say about all of this is, it is as if you're trying to convince yourself some of this stuff is okay by telling us the story..

Granted I can be square when it comes to dating and GF and such.. But I cannot grasp a D!ck pic as an accident when sending a message on FB.. I have FB and many do here.. I know how it works.. Plus I am sending a pic of my D!ck.. I am gonna make dam sure it goes to the right person.. 

My other thoughts are how does it get to that point that this person thinks its okay to send her a pic like that.. But if that is what you want to believe then do so.. But to me its like telling me its raining while your pissing on my leg.. 

Again my ExGF was not shy.. She loved the attention and she had no issue telling me about it.. 

To me, again it just might be me... I get it..
BUT to me it is as if they (whomever they might be) want you/us to believe its okay... Its normal... That they want you allow the wolf in the hen house, so to speak.. Its as if they want to be able to fool around and not have the effort of trying to do it behind your back.. They just want to assault your senses with this sort of stuff so much that you eventually become dull to it.. 

A very simple example.. I have seen so many dead and dismembered people in my life that I can deal with it now.. Its still Ug, that sucks.. But I wouldn't be in a panic if I had ( as I have dozens of times ) move a dead body or pick up a body part... 

Some women want the attention and pretty much admit it, until you call them out on it and paint a not so nice picture for them.. Then there are others that say they don't but really do and pretend not to know why they do get the attention..

My ExGF played both those parts during several times in the relationship and I was so warped and brainwashed that I actually needed validation that I WASN'T nuts that I WASN'T thinking crazy.. That I WASN'T being overly insecure.. 

The therapist even sent me a part of a book he was reading to show me and to back up his statements about my ExGF.. 

So my simple point is everyone in a relationship has a simple job.. 
You love this person your with ? Yes..

Okay, then you protect them.. Even from yourself.. You protect your relationship.. You don't do thing to hurt the other person.. You don't do thing that make the other person feel insecure or question you.. 

This sh!t isn't fvcking rocket science.. It's goddam common sense.. 

I've been away for MANY business trips and hacker conventions.. 
I have had women offer me sex.. I have never, ever, never accepted it.. No matter how drunk I was.. 
My spouse was at home with my kids and I would never do anything to hurt that person even if she wouldn't know.. Because I would know.. 

Again not rocket science.. Common sense.. It takes you 2 seconds.. *What if I SEEN MY* significant other doing this right now.. What would I think ?

What would your wife think if she seen YOU going into a hotel room with a female co-worker.. 
What would your wife think if she seen you get a pic of a vagina from a female that you knew.. 

This sh!t just does not happen.. Its not a common everyday occurrence UNLESS you're a *TRAVELING GYNECOLOGIST
*..

Its everyone's job to protect their relationship.. IF THEY WANT IT...


----------



## Marduk

Man, don't take this the wrong way, but she's _just_ a girlfriend.

You don't hire PIs for girlfriends. If you're at the place where you think you need one, you don't need a PI, you need a new girlfriend, because this one doesn't work for you.


----------



## jb02157

Since she is only your girlfriend she may think of your relationship as non-commital and that gives her the right to do things like this. But in addtion to this, the things that would come up at work could very well damage if not end her career. She definitely likes to play dangerously and thinks nothing of the possible outcomes of her actions. I would seriously consider whether you want to continue to be with her, it's a good thing you weren't married, she would end up with your house.


----------



## leetjay

toonaive said:


> She is your girlfriend and did this? This my friend is your way out!. End this! and move on with your life. This girl has no boundaries, and will eventually be causing alot of problems for you. You do not want to be on the end of another 20 years, with children, to have finally had enough of your wifes cheating.


Yep...I am 23 years married, my wife continues to want other guys, we have five kids, and I am pretty much stuck. Get out


----------



## SidLeShane

Thanks to everyone for your input. 

I sent her a long email explaining my reasons for leaving the relationship, followed it up with a phone call, and said that I would be gone when she gets back from her trip in two weeks. 

She is absolutely losing her shyt. Says I am not giving her a chance and I never have. She is begging me to see a counselor but I think I am past the point of even wanting to save it. 

I am overwhelmed by feelings of guilt at causing her pain now. I am reading the "no more mr nice guy" pdf and trying to be more concerned with the pain I've allowed myself to swallow over the last couple of years, but it is so hard. I want to ease her pain so bad by taking her back. I love her and can't take her hurting like this. She is begging me to give her a chance to try to learn how to listen better to me and not just reactively jump my shyt when I have concerns.


----------



## ricky15100

But has she acknowledged what she did was wrong? 

Has she told you she's sorry for trampling on your feelings?

Does she think you're over reacting?

Don't fall for the crocodile tears pal?

She's either got p!ss poor boundaries or she's trying to control you by making you jealous.

And now she's pulling the old poor me card.

You did the right thing, now remember you MUST follow through with this or she will know that she can get away with this sh!t by following up with the old boo hoos!


----------



## zillard

Being the "dumper" comes with those feelings. Some are natural, some are due to codependency. Stick to your guns. You're not on with it. That's perfectly fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ricky15100

Unless she's prepared to own her crap and do some serious work on herself, and try to find out why she thought it was fine to treat you like this, women like this are usually entitled princess's who think they've done nothing wrong


----------



## Yeswecan

SidLeShane said:


> Thanks to everyone for your input.
> 
> I sent her a long email explaining my reasons for leaving the relationship, followed it up with a phone call, and said that I would be gone when she gets back from her trip in two weeks.
> 
> She is absolutely losing her shyt. Says I am not giving her a chance and I never have. She is begging me to see a counselor but I think I am past the point of even wanting to save it.
> 
> I am overwhelmed by feelings of guilt at causing her pain now. I am reading the "no more mr nice guy" pdf and trying to be more concerned with the pain I've allowed myself to swallow over the last couple of years, but it is so hard. I want to ease her pain so bad by taking her back. I love her and can't take her hurting like this. She is begging me to give her a chance to try to learn how to listen better to me and not just reactively jump my shyt when I have concerns.


It sucks brother but I think you are saving yourself a bunch of heartache down the road. Just my opinion on the matter.


----------



## Clay2013

I think your doing the right thing. You can't force people to change there behavior. They have to come to that conclusion on there own when they are ready. I would limit how much you talk to her. 

Im sorry your hurting. 

C


----------



## Hardtohandle

ricky15100 said:


> Unless she's prepared to own her crap and do some serious work on herself, and try to find out why she thought it was fine to treat you like this, women like this are usually entitled princess's who think they've done nothing wrong


I needed to fvcking quote this.. 

You know some women just know they are good looking and use it..

They want you to be like all the rest of the guys but just maybe you get to sit in that special seat next to them.. But mind you... All those other guys in the seat next to you can TAKE YOUR SEAT at any moment.. So don't you fvck up.. OR ELSE....


----------



## zillard

Clay2013 said:


> I think your doing the right thing. You can't force people to change there behavior. They have to come to that conclusion on there own when they are ready. I would limit how much you talk to her.
> 
> Im sorry your hurting.
> 
> C


And often it takes something like this for them to see that. In that way, you truly are doing her a favor by refusing to put up with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan

zillard said:


> And often it takes something like this for them to see that. In that way, you truly are doing her a favor by refusing to put up with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sort of like allowing an alcoholic to hit bottom, rather than continuing to enable their addiction by covering for them and excusing bad behavior.


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## Marduk

I would have waited for her return and done it face to face... otherwise, all is good.

Please don't waffle now. What do you think she's doing with her tears while she's on this trip? What kind of behaviour do you think it will drive her to now that she's single and in pain? We all know what people tend to do when that happens. So settle yourself.

Let this one go, man.


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## synthetic

You don't trust her. Love can't exist other than in short-bursts when there is no trust.

You don't love this girl (because you can't). 

End of story.

Stick to your decision and end it. Only change it if you fully trust her at some point in the future (not next week, but a more distant future).


----------



## alexm

Hardtohandle said:


> All I will say about all of this is, it is as if you're trying to convince yourself some of this stuff is okay by telling us the story..
> 
> *Not sure if this is directed at me or the OP, but if it's me, there's no such convincing going on. I'm not okay with it, and my wife now knows it. Maybe it was a s*** test on her part, maybe she likes/liked the attention. Not my concern.*
> 
> Granted I can be square when it comes to dating and GF and such.. But I cannot grasp a D!ck pic as an accident when sending a message on FB.. I have FB and many do here.. I know how it works.. Plus I am sending a pic of my D!ck.. I am gonna make dam sure it goes to the right person..
> 
> *Trust me, I don't think it was an accident, either. But, accidents do happen. I've texted the wrong person before, with personal information or wording (no pics though!)*
> 
> My other thoughts are how does it get to that point that this person thinks its okay to send her a pic like that.. But if that is what you want to believe then do so.. But to me its like telling me its raining while your pissing on my leg..
> 
> *Well, I'm not sure how to answer this in 2015... If you're insinuating she must have done something or acted a certain way in order for this guy to think it was okay, then I think we all generally agree that this mindset is not quite PC. Perhaps it was a case of her not shutting him down when she should have. Perhaps he's just a d-bag.
> 
> But, this guy worked with my wife several years ago, not currently, is a good 10+ years younger than her, is married himself (with an infant at the time), and my wife's facebook profile and cover page are photos of us, and us and the kids. My wife doesn't own a cell phone, doesn't work with this guy, hasn't spoken to him via email or FB or anything else (she leaves hers open at all times, and yes, I did a little snooping soon after this incident). In a nutshell, I am 99.999% confident this was unwanted and unwarranted. As I said, it was either an accident or he's an exhibitionist.*
> 
> Some women want the attention and pretty much admit it, until you call them out on it and paint a not so nice picture for them.. Then there are others that say they don't but really do and pretend not to know why they do get the attention..
> 
> *My wife falls into the first category. I generally had no issue with it - until we were married. I did voice my displeasure prior to then, but I put my foot down after we said our vows. And to be fair, she wasn't running wild, anyway. It's a byproduct of being the sole woman working with 100 men in a blue collar environment. As you said in your example about dead bodies, eventually you don't even notice it any more. Until you see something you haven't seen yet. Like a **** pic.*
> 
> The therapist even sent me a part of a book he was reading to show me and to back up his statements about my ExGF..
> 
> *I'd like to hear more about this, please!*


----------



## alexm

On a semi-related note (boundaries), and at the possibility that I'm thread-jacking (still talking about boundaries, though), I found this picture posted on my wife's Facebook wall, literally 2 minutes ago. It's from a co-worker of hers, married, kids, 10 years older.

It wasn't shared to anybody else's facebook wall but hers, and she hasn't liked it or acknowledged it.

As I am obviously sensitive in regards to her co-workers and how they speak to her, I don't know how to take this. Fishing? 2 people sharing a joke that happens to have a sexual overtone? Something this guy found funny and thought she would, too? And if so, why would he? (and fwiw, I know my wife HATES, with a passion, having her boobs grabbed (unless it's during sex) It's a "thing" of hers... sigh)


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## Marduk

Fishing, Alex. And clearly inappropriate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

marduk said:


> Man, don't take this the wrong way, but she's _just_ a girlfriend.
> 
> You don't hire PIs for girlfriends. If you're at the place where you think you need one, you don't need a PI, you need a new girlfriend, because this one doesn't work for you.


Fvcking beautiful. 

I agree 100%. No way I would continue on with a girlfriend who was putting me through this kind of emotional b.s. I just had one like this last year and I ended it. Best thing I could have done. 

Dump her and go on to the next candidate.


----------



## zillard

alexm said:


> On a semi-related note (boundaries), and at the possibility that I'm thread-jacking (still talking about boundaries, though), I found this picture posted on my wife's Facebook wall, literally 2 minutes ago. It's from a co-worker of hers, married, kids, 10 years older.


Not OK for him to post this on her wall.

OTOH - I totally, 100%, completely, without a doubt, agree with the meme. 

I heart boobs.>


----------



## morituri

As I told my kids long ago, no relationship is worth it if it destroys you peace of mind.


----------



## bandit.45

alexm said:


> On a semi-related note (boundaries), and at the possibility that I'm thread-jacking (still talking about boundaries, though), I found this picture posted on my wife's Facebook wall, literally 2 minutes ago. It's from a co-worker of hers, married, kids, 10 years older.
> 
> It wasn't shared to anybody else's facebook wall but hers, and she hasn't liked it or acknowledged it.
> 
> As I am obviously sensitive in regards to her co-workers and how they speak to her, I don't know how to take this. Fishing? 2 people sharing a joke that happens to have a sexual overtone? Something this guy found funny and thought she would, too? And if so, why would he? (and fwiw, I know my wife HATES, with a passion, having her boobs grabbed (unless it's during sex) It's a "thing" of hers... sigh)



If your wife is such low sex drive and never wants to be intimate with you, what kind of telegraphing is she doing to her male co-workers to make them think she finds this stuff cool?


----------



## Yeswecan

alexm said:


> On a semi-related note (boundaries), and at the possibility that I'm thread-jacking (still talking about boundaries, though), I found this picture posted on my wife's Facebook wall, literally 2 minutes ago. It's from a co-worker of hers, married, kids, 10 years older.
> 
> It wasn't shared to anybody else's facebook wall but hers, and she hasn't liked it or acknowledged it.
> 
> As I am obviously sensitive in regards to her co-workers and how they speak to her, I don't know how to take this. Fishing? 2 people sharing a joke that happens to have a sexual overtone? Something this guy found funny and thought she would, too? And if so, why would he? (and fwiw, I know my wife HATES, with a passion, having her boobs grabbed (unless it's during sex) It's a "thing" of hers... sigh)


Out of line sir. She should advise the co-worker that it is FB and not smut book.


----------



## alte Dame

To OP:

I suspect that she will be so contrite and humble that you will want to take her back. If so, don't rugsweep the hotel room issue. You've gotten her attention and insisted that she respect you, but that's only a first step.

I've had LT relationships where the bf did cr*p like this, and I caved in to the pleas in the beginning. The heart wants what it wants. After a while, though, my level of trust and love diminished and the relationships died their own deaths.

You may well be at that point already, but, if not, try to get the truth about the hotel room drinks. That could get you to the breakup mindset much faster.

To alexm:

The boob pic is way out of line for a co-worker.


----------



## SidLeShane

I would have waited until we were face to face to break up with her. I wanted to. After she refused to hear me out on my feelings on issue number 1, the professional optics (see OP), and it blew up into a fight with her yelling at me and cutting me off on every word over number 2, the appearance of infidelity, I started feeling despondent. I told her that I needed some space, and that I didn't want to talk until she got home, mostly because I didn't want to do any more damage. But also because it started me down the road thinking that it might be time to just give up (I was being distant). After about 10 days, we had only spoken two times, very brief hellos/goodnights (purposely, on my part) because I just didn't want to fight again about her not hearing me out. 

Finally, a few days ago, she started pressing me for an answer as to what I was thinking, so I gave it to her, in a long email. I never *specifically* told her in exact words that I was breaking up with her. I just listed my reasoning on how my needs for respect and understanding have been ignored and summed it up to her: "I don't feel very good at all about Us anymore", and that I didn't think we could go on doing the same thing over and over with nothing changing. 

She kind of ran with it from there. When she started losing her shyt at me, I kind of realized something. If she wants to pull this crap half a world away when I have no power to do anything about it... if that's how she is willing to be, maybe I should just break it off while she's far away too. I had gotten pretty angry thinking about it all by that point. 

I'm not thinking of getting a PI or anything (she is on another continent). I don't need proof of any shenanigans. I'm starting to figure out that the real problem is that if she has unusual boundaries and she wants to be with me, she had also be willing to do the work toward patient communication, reassurance and accountability towards me (a person with conventional boundaries). And if I want to be with her, I need to accept her loose boundaries with married men, and really trust the shyt out of her like I'm the blind patron saint of trusting blindly. I've been patient for 5 years. The problem here is that her communications skills and willingness to be reassuring and accountable are just not getting better.


----------



## Marduk

This behaviour, to me, is indicative of a bruised ego in being dumped, incredulity at being called out, and an inability to face her own behaviour. 

Upgrade your mate selection thinking for next time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Fishing, Alex. And clearly inappropriate.


Hmm. I'd be very tempted to curbstomb the [email protected]#$ of this.

That said, it's probably best for you to leave it to your wife for now.

_For *now*._


----------



## Marduk

GusPolinski said:


> Hmm. I'd be very tempted to curbstomb the [email protected]#$ of this.
> 
> That said, it's probably best for you to leave it to your wife for now.
> 
> _For *now*._


Now it has been said that I'm an *******. 

But I would be on the phone with this schmuck telling him to meet me at the nearest watering hole to buy me a beer and explain his behaviour, apologize to my wife, or face the wrath of me going ballistic with hr, his wife, and probably after that I'd get angry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> Hmm. I'd be very tempted to curbstomb the [email protected]#$ of this.
> 
> That said, it's probably best for you to leave it to your wife for now.
> 
> _For *now*._


This stuff has been happening for a while, has it not Alex?


----------



## GusPolinski

marduk said:


> Now it has been said that I'm an *******.
> 
> But I would be on the phone with this schmuck telling him to meet me at the nearest watering hole to buy me a beer and explain his behaviour, apologize to my wife, or face the wrath of me going ballistic with hr, his wife, and probably after that I'd get angry.


Dude, I'm right there w/ you, but I'd HAVE to give my wife the benefit of the doubt here, along w/ the opportunity to handle it herself first.

And if she hadn't taken care of it by the time that we were both home from work that afternoon, I'd have screenshots, his home address, and directions to his front f*cking door ready to go.


----------



## bandit.45

SidLeShane said:


> I would have waited until we were face to face to break up with her. I wanted to. After she refused to hear me out on my feelings on issue number 1, the professional optics (see OP), and i*t blew up into a fight with her yelling at me* and cutting me off on every word over number 2, the appearance of infidelity, I started feeling despondent. I told her that I needed some space, and that I didn't want to talk until she got home, mostly because I didn't want to do any more damage. But also because it started me down the road thinking that it might be time to just give up (I was being distant). After about 10 days, we had only spoken two times, very brief hellos/goodnights (purposely, on my part) because I just didn't want to fight again about her not hearing me out.
> 
> Finally, a few days ago, she started pressing me for an answer as to what I was thinking, so I gave it to her, in a long email. I never *specifically* told her in exact words that I was breaking up with her. I just listed my reasoning on how my needs for respect and understanding have been ignored and summed it up to her: "I don't feel very good at all about Us anymore", and that I didn't think we could go on doing the same thing over and over with nothing changing.
> 
> *She kind of ran with it from there. When she started losing her shyt at me,* I kind of realized something. If she wants to pull this crap half a world away when I have no power to do anything about it... if that's how she is willing to be, maybe I should just break it off while she's far away too. I had gotten pretty angry thinking about it all by that point.
> 
> I'm not thinking of getting a PI or anything (she is on another continent). I don't need proof of any shenanigans. I'm starting to figure out that the real problem is that if she has unusual boundaries and she wants to be with me, she had also be willing to do the work toward patient communication, reassurance and accountability towards me (a person with conventional boundaries). And if I want to be with her, I need to accept her loose boundaries with married men, and really trust the shyt out of her like I'm the blind patron saint of trusting blindly. I've been patient for 5 years. The problem here is that *her communications skills and willingness to be reassuring and accountable are just not getting better.*


Sounds like abuse to me bro.


----------



## alte Dame

SidLeShane said:


> And if I want to be with her, I need to accept her loose boundaries with married men, and really trust the shyt out of her like I'm the blind patron saint of trusting blindly.


I'm assuming there are implied sarcasm tags around this.

In my opinion, conventional boundaries are established for good social reasons. She has a right, of course, to her looser boundaries, but you don't have to accept them.

Remember that you offer her peace of mind by adhering to conventions, while she declares the right to unsettle you at any time with her unconventional boundaries.

I also think your reasoning re telling her via e-mail is perfectly understandable.


----------



## bandit.45

Sid, if you were a chick, and I was one of the TAM ladies, and your BF was blowing up and screaming at you every time you brought up his poor boundaries, as a conscientious TAM chick I and the other ladies (tee-hee) would be circling the wagons and telling you that he is an abusive prick and you should get away from him as fast as possible.


----------



## morituri

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like abuse to me bro.


Indeed hermano bandit. This woman feels no need to explain herself, to be an open book to any man she is in a committed relationship. Her mindset is *"I don't give a rat's @$$ how you feel if I am alone with another man in a hotel room. Deal with it"*. This type of woman is often a hypocrite because if the OP was doing the same thing with another woman, you can bet your sweet assets that she would cry bloody murder. Good riddance to an uncaring and disrespectful excuse of a person.


----------



## chris007

I read the Op and thought this should be moved to Coping with Infidelity. Was there ever any doubt?


----------



## alexm

Yeswecan said:


> Out of line sir. She should advise the co-worker that it is FB and not smut book.


She actually did  I brought it up when she got home this afternoon, and she said she actually had asked him what the hell that was and why he posted it on her facebook wall. He thought it was funny, she said, and thought she would, too. She begged to differ and asked him not to do that any more.

:laugh:


----------



## alexm

bandit.45 said:


> If your wife is such low sex drive and never wants to be intimate with you, what kind of telegraphing is she doing to her male co-workers to make them think she finds this stuff cool?


Again, this type of topic usually comes back to the "she wanted it because of what she was wearing" or "she smiled at me" or "she didn't tell me to f*** off".

Women don't have to walk around anywhere, especially at work, with a scowl on their face or a nasty retort to any guy that looks at her sideways or talks to her.

Given that she is literally one woman in a sea of ~100 men in her workplace, she simply can't do that. She won't be employed long, gender equality regardless. As many women know, it's not enough to be damn good at your job. Now imagine being completely and utterly surrounded by men, and men only.

So please, don't blame the victim, making the assumption that she is "telegraphing" anything, not simply being pleasant and friendly.

Unfortunately, to many men out there, "pleasant and friendly" MUST mean a woman is available... Hell, I've made that mistake before.


----------



## morituri

bandit.45 said:


> Sid, if you were a chick, and I was one of the TAM ladies, and your BF was blowing up and screaming at you every time you brought up his poor boundaries, as a conscientious TAM chick I and the other ladies (tee-hee) would be circling the wagons and telling you that he is an abusive prick and you should get away from him as fast as possible.


Did I mentioned that the highlights in your hair match your eyes beautifully? :grin2:


----------



## alexm

farsidejunky said:


> This stuff has been happening for a while, has it not Alex?


We had our issues when we first started dating, ~7 years ago. It was taken care of in due time, prior to marriage, and it has ceased, and she has adopted similar boundaries to mine.

Every now and again, however, things like this pop up - that have nothing to do with HER, it's them. She is not receptive to it. For what it's worth, she never was, she just had difficulty in dealing with it in the past. Now, she does not, and I have witnessed it first hand (she absolutely tore a strip off a guy at a pre-wedding event of ours, with his own girlfriend right in front of him). I was 10 feet away when this went down, and I smiled and winked at him when he glanced my way.

So, to set the record straight - my wife is the lone woman in a heavily male-dominated, blue collar profession. She has heard of one other woman who does this job in our entire country - a profession that employs many people, yet there are only a few larger companies employing them, so women in this field are so rare, they're known to others.

She is most definitely a gorgeous and naturally sexy woman. And she's outgoing, pleasant, funny, the whole nine.

You put these two things together, and you're going to get attention whether you like it or not. She's used to it. It'll keep happening. She just has to keep putting little fires out here and there.

She only has two options at this point - walk around with a scowl on her face and wear a mumu, or continue to be herself. And whether we like it or not, not all sexy women are fishing for men.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Just wanted to make sure I have all the facts right:




Girlfriend of 5 years (share a home together) was away on business and started conversing and regularly going for drinks with a male (married) co-worker in your age group. 



This sort of behaviour has been going on 5 years into this relationship and she is not changing her behaviour. Also, you've been having troubles communicating calmly and effectively lately and the communication issue has led to less frequent physical intimacy. 



They don't have a common project, there are no numbers goals to work on together. They are both from the same company with drastically different jobs/divisions, there regularly for different reasons.



You don't know the guy, will never meet him (he lives in a different state), and as her trips to this location will be ongoing month to month, they will be and have been in proximity often.



After several hangouts, she agrees to an invitation from him to have some drinks, alone with him, down the hall in his hotel room. She mentions it to you casually, after the fact, as if expecting you to consider it normal behaviour.



On this particular night, she said they were getting ready to go to a jazz club to meet "someone else". Every other time she's gone out, she's sent you a picture of her and some of the other people she was out with at the table. This time, all you got was a picture of the jazz group.



You've caught her in trickle-truths and flat out lies before on things where she knew her boundary decisions were iffy and might cause you to become jealous or cause a fight.



When she told you, you expressed concern, calmly, carefully in the form of a question, so as not to be condescending or antagonistic, about what other coworkers might infer from her behaviour and before you could get round to what she thinks you might feel about this, she started to get loudly defensive, saying you should trust her judgement, trust the guy you've never met, et cetera. 



The discussion turned into a loud argument and then blew up into a fight with her yelling and cutting you off on every word. You hung up on her so that you would not lose it and tear into her.



You told her that you needed some space, and didn't want to talk until she got home, mostly because you didn't want to do any more damage. But also because you started thinking that it might be time to just give up. After about 10 days, you two had only spoken two times, very brief hellos/goodnights, purposely, because you didn't want to fight again about her not hearing you out. 



A few days ago, she started pressing you for an answer as to what you were thinking, so you sent her a long email. You listed your reasoning on how your needs for respect and understanding have been ignored and that you don't feel very good at all about the two of you anymore. 



You wrote this:* "I never *specifically* told her in exact words that I was breaking up with her. I just listed my reasoning on how my needs for respect and understanding have been ignored and summed it up to her: "I don't feel very good at all about ss anymore", and that I didn't think we could go on doing the same thing over and over with nothing changing."*



But then you also wrote this (confusing to me): *"I sent her a long email explaining my reasons for leaving the relationship, followed it up with a phone call, and said that I would be gone when she gets back from her trip in two weeks."*


And you also wrote (confusion continued - you did break up with her remotely?): *"If she wants to pull this crap half a world away when I have no power to do anything about it... if that's how she is willing to be, maybe I should just break it off while she's far away too." *



And now she is absolutely losing her sh!t and says that you are not giving her a chance and never have. She is also begging you to see a counselor but you think that you are past the point of wanting to save your relationship.



She is also begging you to give her a chance to try to learn how to listen better to you and not just reactively "jump your shut" when you have concerns.



And finally you wrote:* "I am overwhelmed by feelings of guilt at causing her pain now. I am reading the "no more mr nice guy" pdf and trying to be more concerned with the pain I've allowed myself to swallow over the last couple of years, but it is so hard. I want to ease her pain so bad by taking her back. I love her and can't take her hurting like this."*


OK it sounds like she has boundary and communications issues at the very least. At the other end she may be enjoying herself while she is away and not married. In any case it might be that she genuinely loves you and this could be worked out. But not before you establish that she has not cheated on you - and this may need her to take a poly. If she agrees and she passes, then work on the relationship is a possibility. She would need to genuinely acknowledge her errors of judgement.

Ask her to take a poly to prove no cheating has happened and then, since the two of you love each other, maybe its worth a shot at counselling. If she refuses or has cheated, then this is moot and get the hell out of there real fast.


----------



## ConanHub

A man sends the boob pic to my wife and I would put the squeeze on him.

On a side note. Why are two women doing that so HOT! &#55357;&#56844;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

morituri said:


> Did I mentioned that the highlights in your hair match your eyes beautifully? :grin2:


I'm just dying to whip out the ol' carpet/drapes joke.


----------



## bandit.45

alexm said:


> Again, this type of topic usually comes back to the "she wanted it because of what she was wearing" or "she smiled at me" or "she didn't tell me to f*** off".
> 
> Women don't have to walk around anywhere, especially at work, with a scowl on their face or a nasty retort to any guy that looks at her sideways or talks to her.
> 
> Given that she is literally one woman in a sea of ~100 men in her workplace, she simply can't do that. She won't be employed long, gender equality regardless. As many women know, it's not enough to be damn good at your job. Now imagine being completely and utterly surrounded by men, and men only.
> 
> So please, don't blame the victim, making the assumption that she is "telegraphing" anything, not simply being pleasant and friendly.
> 
> Unfortunately, to many men out there, "pleasant and friendly" MUST mean a woman is available... Hell, I've made that mistake before.


I don't agree. And I will leave it at that.


----------



## arbitrator

GusPolinski said:


> I'm just dying to whip out the ol' carpet/drapes joke.



* Hell, don't you dare die on us, Gus! Just whip it on out!*


----------



## alexm

bandit.45 said:


> I don't agree. And I will leave it at that.


Hey, I agree with you - my wife was at fault. Past tense. While I don't believe she angled anybody to boost her ego, she definitely didn't put a stop to it (and enjoyed it) while it was happening. At one point, she had poor boundaries, and it has been taken care of. I have my full faith in her. I didn't just meekly ask her to please respect me. Foot down, this won't happen again, there will be repercussions. She rather liked it. I had a thread about this a while back.

But that doesn't mean that they (other men) respect my/her/our boundaries. She's pretty. She's friendly. She's the only damn woman in that office. It's gonna happen. Why? Because far too many men confuse niceness with being open for business. Throw in the fact that she's hot (and I'm not biased!), and look out.

Beautiful, approachable, and a bit of a novelty being the only woman there. And I'm not even allowed in the building due to sensitive operations, so I can't even mark my territory.


----------



## alte Dame

This thread is like something out of Chinatown...


----------



## alexm

So for what it's worth, OP, I didn't mean to highjack this thread. I wanted to show that I had a similar (though not the same) issue in my relationship at one point, too, and it is possible to establish boundaries with those who don't have great ones to begin with.

My wife (girlfriend at the time) had poor boundaries, like yours seems to have. Mine also reacted in a similar manner when I brought the topic up.

The obvious difference here is that your girlfriend took part in something that, to many, indicates cheating. Whether she did or not, they only know, but the optics certainly lean that way.

But, my issue was worked out, and it took me doing some proper mate-guarding to get to that point, not just asking her or even threatening a break up. That's generally weak. In my case, as many here suggest, or say they would do if given the chance, I had to get my point across to people other than my wife.

As I said earlier, it's not necessarily the difference in opinion about boundaries that's the immediate issue, it's how one reacts when the other establishes them. And unfortunately, they need establishing sometimes.

The only issue I have with any of the above posts (which I definitely agree with for the most part) is the consensus to kick somebody to the curb at the first sign of trouble. Your case IS different, though... Alone in a hotel room with another man and alcohol. It's hard to give the benefit of the doubt in that case, as even the most innocent of people should surely see how that looks.

But in less extreme cases, it can be chalked up to a s*** test, for example. I'm not a fan of those, but from your girlfriends perspective, it could be an effective way of figuring out where you stand and what you're willing to do.

And it can also be chalked up to one never learning actual boundaries for a variety of reasons. If one truly does have an innocent mind, or they're naive, then situations like yours don't tend to register with them the same way they do with you or I.

Listen, it's not making excuses. What your girlfriend did - even if she is not guilty of anything but being naive - is not cool. My wife knows she ****ed up, even though she didn't see it that way at the time. It took me not only having to explain to her how it looked and how it made ME feel, but I had to get off my *** and take matters into my own hands, as well.

So if you're willing at this point, you have to do the same. First things first, you have to arrive at some sort of conclusion - did they, or didn't they? Once that is out of the way (depending on your findings), you have to establish your boundaries with her. Then you have to gauge how she reacts to them, and whether she's willing and able to maintain them.

To many people here, things are very black and white, which is fine. A lot of us have been burned before, some more than once. This tends to create a "zero tolerance" policy going forward, in order to protect themselves. It's not a stupid policy at all.

But I get it. My wife ****ed up early on, I/we worked it out, boundaries were established, etc etc etc. But the fallout from that is that it will always be in the back of my mind that more could have gone on than I thought. I don't believe so, but I don't know, and never will. If you choose to work this out with your fiancee, then you, too, will never truly know what she did or didn't do.

Sometimes you just have to trust. Even if it's not 100%, which is largely unattainable, anyway. Putting 100% trust into someone - anyone - is more naive than being accepting of whatever they tell you, or forgiving them for stupidity. From where I stand, my wife has received her one chance, whether she knows it or not. If she reverts back to earlier behaviour, then I'll know where I stand, and that's that, as far as I'm concerned. To some, they feel that this is giving a second chance, but I don't see it that way. How my wife reacts going forward is indicative of how she feels about me, the relationship, and the respect she has for it, and me (and herself). It's almost a better gauge this way, imo.


----------



## farsidejunky

alexm said:


> So for what it's worth, OP, I didn't mean to highjack this thread. I wanted to show that I had a similar (though not the same) issue in my relationship at one point, too, and it is possible to establish boundaries with those who don't have great ones to begin with.
> 
> My wife (girlfriend at the time) had poor boundaries, like yours seems to have. Mine also reacted in a similar manner when I brought the topic up.
> 
> The obvious difference here is that your girlfriend took part in something that, to many, indicates cheating. Whether she did or not, they only know, but the optics certainly lean that way.
> 
> But, my issue was worked out, and it took me doing some proper mate-guarding to get to that point, not just asking her or even threatening a break up. That's generally weak. In my case, as many here suggest, or say they would do if given the chance, I had to get my point across to people other than my wife.
> 
> As I said earlier, it's not necessarily the difference in opinion about boundaries that's the immediate issue, it's how one reacts when the other establishes them. And unfortunately, they need establishing sometimes.
> 
> The only issue I have with any of the above posts (which I definitely agree with for the most part) is the consensus to kick somebody to the curb at the first sign of trouble. Your case IS different, though... Alone in a hotel room with another man and alcohol. It's hard to give the benefit of the doubt in that case, as even the most innocent of people should surely see how that looks.
> 
> But in less extreme cases, it can be chalked up to a s*** test, for example. I'm not a fan of those, but from your girlfriends perspective, it could be an effective way of figuring out where you stand and what you're willing to do.
> 
> And it can also be chalked up to one never learning actual boundaries for a variety of reasons. If one truly does have an innocent mind, or they're naive, then situations like yours don't tend to register with them the same way they do with you or I.
> 
> Listen, it's not making excuses. What your girlfriend did - even if she is not guilty of anything but being naive - is not cool. My wife knows she ****ed up, even though she didn't see it that way at the time. It took me not only having to explain to her how it looked and how it made ME feel, but I had to get off my *** and take matters into my own hands, as well.
> 
> So if you're willing at this point, you have to do the same. First things first, you have to arrive at some sort of conclusion - did they, or didn't they? Once that is out of the way (depending on your findings), you have to establish your boundaries with her. Then you have to gauge how she reacts to them, and whether she's willing and able to maintain them.
> 
> To many people here, things are very black and white, which is fine. A lot of us have been burned before, some more than once. This tends to create a "zero tolerance" policy going forward, in order to protect themselves. It's not a stupid policy at all.
> 
> But I get it. My wife ****ed up early on, I/we worked it out, boundaries were established, etc etc etc. But the fallout from that is that it will always be in the back of my mind that more could have gone on than I thought. I don't believe so, but I don't know, and never will. If you choose to work this out with your fiancee, then you, too, will never truly know what she did or didn't do.
> 
> Sometimes you just have to trust. Even if it's not 100%, which is largely unattainable, anyway. Putting 100% trust into someone - anyone - is more naive than being accepting of whatever they tell you, or forgiving them for stupidity. From where I stand, my wife has received her one chance, whether she knows it or not. If she reverts back to earlier behaviour, then I'll know where I stand, and that's that, as far as I'm concerned. To some, they feel that this is giving a second chance, but I don't see it that way. How my wife reacts going forward is indicative of how she feels about me, the relationship, and the respect she has for it, and me (and herself). It's almost a better gauge this way, imo.


Who are you and what have you done with Alex???


----------



## Marduk

GusPolinski said:


> Dude, I'm right there w/ you, but I'd HAVE to give my wife the benefit of the doubt here, along w/ the opportunity to handle it herself first.
> 
> And if she hadn't taken care of it by the time that we were both home from work that afternoon, I'd have screenshots, his home address, and directions to his front f*cking door ready to go.


Same.

But then I'd do what I said anyway, no matter how she handled it.

Because that particular post isn't about trusting my wife. It's about putting *********s in their place.


----------



## ConanHub

marduk said:


> Same.
> 
> But then I'd do what I said anyway, no matter how she handled it.
> 
> Because that particular post isn't about trusting my wife. It's about putting *********s in their place.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Midnight_cowboy

Hardtohandle said:


> I have seen so many dead and dismembered people in my life that I can deal with it now..


I sure hope you're in the military, law enforcement or medical forensics otherwise I'm going to have to report you.


----------



## arbitrator

Midnight_cowboy said:


> Hardtohandle said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen so many dead and dismembered people in my life that I can deal with it now..
> 
> 
> 
> I sure hope you're in the military, law enforcement or medical forensics otherwise I'm going to have to report you.
Click to expand...

* Jason Voorhies lives!*


----------



## bandit.45

alexm said:


> Hey, I agree with you - my wife was at fault. Past tense. While I don't believe she angled anybody to boost her ego, she definitely didn't put a stop to it (and enjoyed it) while it was happening. At one point, she had poor boundaries, and it has been taken care of. I have my full faith in her. I didn't just meekly ask her to please respect me. Foot down, this won't happen again, there will be repercussions. She rather liked it. I had a thread about this a while back.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that they (other men) respect my/her/our boundaries. She's pretty. She's friendly. She's the only damn woman in that office. It's gonna happen. Why? Because far too many men confuse niceness with being open for business. Throw in the fact that she's hot (and I'm not biased!), and look out.
> 
> Beautiful, approachable, and a bit of a novelty being the only woman there. And I'm not even allowed in the building due to sensitive operations, so I can't even mark my territory.


Maybe if they all knew what you know about what a LD she is...

Anyway...doesn't matter. As long as she is spurning them then good for her.


----------



## bandit.45

Midnight_cowboy said:


> I sure hope you're in the military, law enforcement or medical forensics otherwise I'm going to have to report you.


I hasd a good friend who was an Arizona DPS officer (hwy patrolman) and one night he got called out on an I-10 accident where a tractor trailer made a sudden stop and the guy behind him didn't...

The guy's car went under the back end of the trailer and when the bumber hit the guys head it peeled his face back off and crumpled it up on top of his skull. So when my friend got there the guy was just a skull and eyeballs with no skin...but he was alive and talking.

Yeah...

They airlifted him to Tucson, pulled his face back down over his skull, reattached everything and the guy went home a couple weeks later. 

Honest to God that's a true story.


----------



## morituri

Sid, are you still with us?


----------



## Hardtohandle

Alexm 

For what its worth, I don't think you hijacked this thread.. I think you expanded it.. 

I think you express points for the other side of this as well..

Suffice to say I think I dealt with a very extreme case of what the OP is going through.. 

In the almost 2 years we were together I knew about every guy she fvcked ( or at least the ones she told me about or wanted me to know about ).. I knew about the rockstar, the movie star, the guy with the big d!ck she just had to date.. The guy she dated because he looked like a rock star she liked.. 

I didn't get why... I asked her not to tell me.

She was the typical I have guy friends because I get along with them best.. 

Then she proceeds to tell me she doesn't go out with the girls anymore because one of them who used to arrange the nights going out would complain that she ( the ExGF ) would get all the attention and take the men away from others.. So they stopped inviting her.. 

Sadly I can see it.. I can clearly see she didn't like to be outshined.. Pretty much fading beauty queen syndrome.. 

The reason she hung with guys is because she liked the attention and they all factually wanted to fvck her.. And she wanted me to be okay with that.. She wanted ME to be friends and hang out with a guy who deep down only reason was friends with her was to date and/or fvck her.. 

She denied it for a long time and then admitted it because I caught her off base.. Nonetheless you can understand the frustration and anger I had for just not being honest about it in the first place..

Look I work in Law Enforcement.. Which is pretty much the same ratio of 100 to 1 men to women.. My car partner for 4 years was a female.. I never hit on her and we drank together and worked together more than I was with my GF or wife at the time.. 

People thought we had something going on and I had people even ask me if we did and if not, could they ask her out.. Of course my answer was no we don't we are work partners. By all means do, good luck..

My point with that was I never did anything out of line to give anyone the impression I was dating my work partner because I never, ever wanted anything to get back to my then GF and future wife.. 

I never wanted to put my GF/wife that I loved so much in a position to feel hurt by me.. But I also never told my Exwife, hey I have this case with this woman who I interviewed and then hours later wanted me to come over her house to talk.. Again what's the point ? To make her feel insecure ? 

What your suppose to do with those moments put up an imaginary chalk line on the scoreboard as one for team AlexM and move on with your life..

But its definitely not something you talk about during dinner with your wife or GF.. This holds no value in a relationship.. This does nothing to strengthen or foster anything good from it.. 

For those that don't know I will address this as a PSA.. 

Guys, woman can walk into any place and shout I need a date and EVERY MAN, married, divorced, single, blind,cripple, crazy will get in line for a date.. Women can get ALL the D!ck they want.. 

Women, We get you have the above powers.. You don't need to throw it in our faces.. We get it.. 

Again not rocket science, common sense.. You look over at your partner and you say, I love this person to death.. I will not harm them or do anything that would make them feel hurt.. 

If you cannot do that, then honestly you're an A$$HOLE.. 

There is no, look you need to trust me.. I'm not stupid or gonna do anything stupid.. Who do you think I am.. What kind of person do you think I am.. Oh my god I hate that you can't trust me.. 

Because you/we should have the goddam common sense not to put another person in that situation.. 

Maybe its the cop in me.. I just don't want to get caught off base.. I just don't want to look like a fool. 

My exwife did such things during our divorce and in the end she couldn't handle it, so she just decided to cut out everyone who would or could say something negative to her.. That included our 12 year old son.. She has not talk to anyone, mom, dad, aunts, uncles, relatives, cousins, friends and now OUR 15 year old son for almost 3 years.. 

Again extreme circumstances but why put yourself in those situations.. Isn't a relationship sometimes hard on its own ? Isn't life itself sometimes hard on its own ? Why inject more bullsh!t and nonsense into your life ?

*BTW this is what the therapist sent me..*

*Dependency/Envy (Psychodynamics): The Case of Mike and Ann 
This case illustrates the importance of psychodynamics, distinguishing envy from jealousy. 

Mike’s vulnerable self provides a perfect backdrop for Ann’s display of negativity as she projects onto Mike that it is “bad” to feel jealous and want exclusivity in their relationship. Mike and Ann have been together on and off for 7 years. He wants her to give up her old boyfriends and make a final commitment to move in with him. Ann appears bewildered and shocked that he could make such a request of her. 

Mike: How can you keep doing this to me? Why don’t you give up your old boyfriends? Ann: [Appears surprised] How can you ask me to give up my friends? I don’t ask you to give up your friends. Of course, you don’t have any anyway. Mike: [Pleadingly] How can you keep doing this to me? Why don’t you give them up? How can you expect to be in a relationship with me and still flirt with your old boyfriends? Ann: Is it normal for him to want me to give up everything for him? Therapist: [To Ann] Do Mike’s needs seem strange to you? Ann: These friends make me feel good, whereas with Mike I always feel guilty, as if I’ve done something wrong. Mike: [Blurts out] This makes me feel that I’m not good enough for you, Ann, as if I don’t exist. You seem to need all the guys even when things are going well. [Silence]

Mike: I know her alimony is running out, and that’s the only reason she will consider moving in with me. Th: Isn’t your loving Ann enough? Mike: Well, I want to know that she loves me. Isn’t that something that anyone would want to know? Look, though, what she does to me! Ann: There he goes again. He’s always so jealous! Mike: Well, how can I stop feeling so jealous when you have all these guys? Th: Just as you are entitled to have others appreciate, admire, and value you, as these “friends” do, then so does Mike have the right to his feelings. In this instance, Mike has the right to feel jealous..*


----------



## Marduk

H2H, you're getting twisted up in knots about your ex when there's no knot there at all.

It's quite simple once you wrap your head around 'the dark triad': 


> As mating strategy[edit]
> It has been suggested that the dark triad traits appear to predispose individuals to short-term rewards and relationships over long-term rewards and benefits. Although advanced societies attempt to promote long-term thinking (environmental protection, saving money for retirement), there are reproductive benefits for the individual for thinking and acting on a shorter time-course. Also, men exhibiting these traits appear to be more successful at generating sexual attraction in women.[37][38]
> 
> Consistent with this perspective, studies have suggested that on average, those who exhibit the dark triad of personality traits have an accelerated mating strategy, reporting more sex partners, more favorable attitudes towards casual sex,[37] lowered standards in their short-term mates,[39] a tendency to steal or poach mates from others,[40] more risk-taking in the form of substance abuse,[41] a tendency to prefer immediate but smaller amounts of money over delayed but larger amounts of money,[42] limited self-control and greater incidence of ADHD symptoms[43] and a pragmatic and game-playing love style.[44] These traits have been identified as part of a fast life strategy that appears to be enacted by an exploitative, opportunistic, and protean approach to life in general[45] and at work.[46]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

I'm not diagnosing your ex, I'm recognizing a pattern of behaviour.


----------



## alexm

Hardtohandle said:


> Alexm
> 
> For what its worth, I don't think you hijacked this thread.. I think you expanded it..
> 
> I think you express points for the other side of this as well..
> 
> Suffice to say I think I dealt with a very extreme case of what the OP is going through..
> 
> In the almost 2 years we were together I knew about every guy she fvcked ( or at least the ones she told me about or wanted me to know about ).. I knew about the rockstar, the movie star, the guy with the big d!ck she just had to date.. The guy she dated because he looked like a rock star she liked..
> 
> I didn't get why... I asked her not to tell me.
> 
> She was the typical I have guy friends because I get along with them best..
> [/I][/B]


This accurately described my ex wife during the first couple of years we were together. I had a lot of those "why are you telling me this???" moments, too.

My wife wasn't like this, however. She recognized that this is none of my business, nor would I be interested in hearing about her escapades, nor her mine. Common sense. But the complete opposite end of the spectrum from my ex wife. Not sure either is better, to be honest. I think we'd all like to get some idea of where our partners are coming from, but within reason of course. In one case, I knew everything (like you, HtH, things like penis size... sheesh). In the other, nothing.

Working with a blank slate is certainly preferable, but a general, basic idea of things is helpful as well.

Listen, people here think I'm naive in regards to my wife, her sexuality, her past (and sometimes present) behaviour, and that's fine. I read what I write, and I understand why/how some folks aren't on board with it. Perhaps there is some naiveté in my approach and understanding of it all, but not as much as may come across.

When I talk with my wife about these subjects, I don't talk to her the way I write things here. TAM is my outlet, and it's almost an alter-ego at this point. I'm not as beta-male in real life as I come across here. Here is where I let that side of me out, which isn't a bad thing.

So in real life, if my wife was away for work and let it slip that she spent an evening drinking with a co-worker alone in his hotel room, I would react like most people who responded to this would - zero tolerance, wtf, heeelllll no. I would find out who this guy is and have a chat with him, and I likely wouldn't waste a whole lot of breath discussing this with my wife. She'd know, in one sentence, that she f***ed up, and it'd be up to her to make it right between us. I'd be busy dealing with buddy.

This is how I've handled the odd thing that has popped up in the last few years (with the difference being that, ostensibly, my wife did not actually DO anything, such as drink alone in somebody's hotel room). When guys have crossed a line - my line - I haven't wasted my breath discussing it ad nauseum with my wife. She knows quickly that I am not pleased (not with her, usually. She's not responsible for how others talk to her - to a point).

So in the past 6 months or so, there have been two such "incidents" (two too many...) in which dudes have crossed MY line.

The "accidental" **** pic came through while both of us were on the computer. She told (not asked) me to handle it, right there in front of her. I did.

The picture that buddy shared on her Facebook wall recently, I handled as well. I found a similar photo (something about how BJ's are good for a woman's health), and posted it under buddy's photo, and said "Hey ____, what's your wife's name? I want to post this on her page. Have some class, would ya?"

In cases like this, my wife doesn't respond to discussion, she responds to action. In the long past, when I'd say, "you know, I don't like how this guy is talking to you", she'd get somewhat defensive, like I was accusing her of something. Or worse, that my way of handling it was to talk to her, so she could talk to them and say her husband doesn't appreciate how you talk to me. Now these things weren't major, and weren't "obvious". For example, one guy would constantly call her "beautiful". Like "hey beautiful" "how's it going beautiful?" This from a single guy around our age. My wife wouldn't respond in kind (like: "Hey handsome!"), but she didn't address it, either. He called all the women beautiful, or cutie, or whatever. I said "Are you sure? ALL of them? Not just the ones around his age that are moderately attractive? Does he address older women like this, too? Pay attention to WHO he uses this on."

I told her I wasn't okay with that. She called me jealous. When I told her it had zero to do with my trust for her, but that rather it had everything to do with men fishing, she started to understand. Because it had always gone on, she was more or less oblivious to it, and that's actually understandable. To her, men weren't hitting on her until they were blunt and obvious. This isn't uncommon.

And as far as the fishing goes, she was oblivious to that, too. When you're not looking, or on the prowl, that sort of thing can go right over your head. It does mine, that's for sure. My wife has pointed out numerous times over the years when a woman was flirting with me and I was oblivious to it. My response is usually just "she was being nice to me". But she knows better. She's a woman.

She now trusts that I know better, too. I'm a man. This is not something she recognized before. So when I told her that when a man uses language like that ("hey beautiful"), or goes out of his way to compliment the way she looks ("wow, you look great today!" or "That shirt looks really good on you!") it's not as innocent as it may seem. The flirtation game is full of tiny little things like this - fishing. Seeing what kind of reaction one can generate from the person. It's recognizing these things for what they (usually) are and reacting according to one's situation that is key.

When buddy posted that picture about how grabbing boobs is good for one's health, he's not sharing it because he thinks my wife will find it funny (fyi, she didn't) - he's fishing for a reaction. He's hoping she'll respond positively to it in some way. Like agreement, for one. He's also surreptitiously, perhaps even subconsciously, making a comment on my wife's boobs, and that they're the type he might like to grab. But more than that, he's trying to judge her comfort zone with subjects like that, to see what he can get away with, how far he can go.

All this to say that, perhaps it is possible that OP's fiancee did not, or was not, judging the hotel room/drinks situation for what it probably was - an invitation, fishing. I maintain that this is more possible than most of you would believe.

If she has zero interest in this guy, in that way, and she views him solely as a co-worker and work-related acquaintance, then it is most definitely possible she did not judge that invitation in the way it was probably intended. Does this make her naive? Most definitely. Does it speak to her character? Not at all.

So, provided this is what happened, then why did she feel it necessary to say something to OP? Quite possibly because she realized, on her own, that the situation did not look good, perhaps after it had already happened.

Maybe the guy made a move on her in the hotel room, and she was like "oh ****, how did I miss that?".

Maybe she was spotted leaving his hotel room later that evening by a co-worker who gave her a look, or a wink or something, and she recognized the optics of it. Maybe a co-worker saw her the next day and asked her "What's up? Saw you coming out of Joe's room last night... what's going on? Don't you have a fiance back home?"

The guilt she may feel (given her reaction to OP) may not be because she was unfaithful, but more because she is ashamed/embarrassed of being in a situation she did not recognize until it was too late.

Honestly, the odds are not skewed in this favour, however, these scenarios are entirely possible, and one has to keep that in mind lest you throw away something potentially good over a misunderstanding. Yes, she has the responsibility (especially now) to be aware of these situations, and she ****ed up, but she has to own that, too. Being accusatory will set a precedent going forward, and she may not want to be in a relationship like that, anyway, so tread carefully.

My wife has owned her share of these incidents that have occurred over our time together, and I trust and believe her. It does not completely excuse her for it, but she owns that, too.


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## Hardtohandle

alexm said:


> This accurately described my ex wife during the first couple of years we were together. I had a lot of those "why are you telling me this???" moments, too.
> 
> My wife wasn't like this, however. She recognized that this is none of my business, nor would I be interested in hearing about her escapades, nor her mine. Common sense. But the complete opposite end of the spectrum from my ex wife. Not sure either is better, to be honest. I think we'd all like to get some idea of where our partners are coming from, but within reason of course. In one case, I knew everything (like you, HtH, things like penis size... sheesh). In the other, nothing.
> 
> Working with a blank slate is certainly preferable, but a general, basic idea of things is helpful as well.
> 
> Listen, people here think I'm naive in regards to my wife, her sexuality, her past (and sometimes present) behaviour, and that's fine. I read what I write, and I understand why/how some folks aren't on board with it. Perhaps there is some naiveté in my approach and understanding of it all, but not as much as may come across.
> 
> When I talk with my wife about these subjects, I don't talk to her the way I write things here. TAM is my outlet, and it's almost an alter-ego at this point. I'm not as beta-male in real life as I come across here. Here is where I let that side of me out, which isn't a bad thing.
> 
> So in real life, if my wife was away for work and let it slip that she spent an evening drinking with a co-worker alone in his hotel room, I would react like most people who responded to this would - zero tolerance, wtf, heeelllll no. I would find out who this guy is and have a chat with him, and I likely wouldn't waste a whole lot of breath discussing this with my wife. She'd know, in one sentence, that she f***ed up, and it'd be up to her to make it right between us. I'd be busy dealing with buddy.
> 
> This is how I've handled the odd thing that has popped up in the last few years (with the difference being that, ostensibly, my wife did not actually DO anything, such as drink alone in somebody's hotel room). When guys have crossed a line - my line - I haven't wasted my breath discussing it ad nauseum with my wife. She knows quickly that I am not pleased (not with her, usually. She's not responsible for how others talk to her - to a point).
> 
> So in the past 6 months or so, there have been two such "incidents" (two too many...) in which dudes have crossed MY line.
> 
> The "accidental" **** pic came through while both of us were on the computer. She told (not asked) me to handle it, right there in front of her. I did.
> 
> The picture that buddy shared on her Facebook wall recently, I handled as well. I found a similar photo (something about how BJ's are good for a woman's health), and posted it under buddy's photo, and said "Hey ____, what's your wife's name? I want to post this on her page. Have some class, would ya?"
> 
> In cases like this, my wife doesn't respond to discussion, she responds to action. In the long past, when I'd say, "you know, I don't like how this guy is talking to you", she'd get somewhat defensive, like I was accusing her of something. Or worse, that my way of handling it was to talk to her, so she could talk to them and say her husband doesn't appreciate how you talk to me. Now these things weren't major, and weren't "obvious". For example, one guy would constantly call her "beautiful". Like "hey beautiful" "how's it going beautiful?" This from a single guy around our age. My wife wouldn't respond in kind (like: "Hey handsome!"), but she didn't address it, either. He called all the women beautiful, or cutie, or whatever. I said "Are you sure? ALL of them? Not just the ones around his age that are moderately attractive? Does he address older women like this, too? Pay attention to WHO he uses this on."
> 
> I told her I wasn't okay with that. She called me jealous. When I told her it had zero to do with my trust for her, but that rather it had everything to do with men fishing, she started to understand. Because it had always gone on, she was more or less oblivious to it, and that's actually understandable. To her, men weren't hitting on her until they were blunt and obvious. This isn't uncommon.
> 
> And as far as the fishing goes, she was oblivious to that, too. When you're not looking, or on the prowl, that sort of thing can go right over your head. It does mine, that's for sure. My wife has pointed out numerous times over the years when a woman was flirting with me and I was oblivious to it. My response is usually just "she was being nice to me". But she knows better. She's a woman.
> 
> She now trusts that I know better, too. I'm a man. This is not something she recognized before. So when I told her that when a man uses language like that ("hey beautiful"), or goes out of his way to compliment the way she looks ("wow, you look great today!" or "That shirt looks really good on you!") it's not as innocent as it may seem. The flirtation game is full of tiny little things like this - fishing. Seeing what kind of reaction one can generate from the person. It's recognizing these things for what they (usually) are and reacting according to one's situation that is key.
> 
> When buddy posted that picture about how grabbing boobs is good for one's health, he's not sharing it because he thinks my wife will find it funny (fyi, she didn't) - he's fishing for a reaction. He's hoping she'll respond positively to it in some way. Like agreement, for one. He's also surreptitiously, perhaps even subconsciously, making a comment on my wife's boobs, and that they're the type he might like to grab. But more than that, he's trying to judge her comfort zone with subjects like that, to see what he can get away with, how far he can go.
> 
> All this to say that, perhaps it is possible that OP's fiancee did not, or was not, judging the hotel room/drinks situation for what it probably was - an invitation, fishing. I maintain that this is more possible than most of you would believe.
> 
> If she has zero interest in this guy, in that way, and she views him solely as a co-worker and work-related acquaintance, then it is most definitely possible she did not judge that invitation in the way it was probably intended. Does this make her naive? Most definitely. Does it speak to her character? Not at all.
> 
> So, provided this is what happened, then why did she feel it necessary to say something to OP? Quite possibly because she realized, on her own, that the situation did not look good, perhaps after it had already happened.
> 
> Maybe the guy made a move on her in the hotel room, and she was like "oh ****, how did I miss that?".
> 
> Maybe she was spotted leaving his hotel room later that evening by a co-worker who gave her a look, or a wink or something, and she recognized the optics of it. Maybe a co-worker saw her the next day and asked her "What's up? Saw you coming out of Joe's room last night... what's going on? Don't you have a fiance back home?"
> 
> The guilt she may feel (given her reaction to OP) may not be because she was unfaithful, but more because she is ashamed/embarrassed of being in a situation she did not recognize until it was too late.
> 
> Honestly, the odds are not skewed in this favour, however, these scenarios are entirely possible, and one has to keep that in mind lest you throw away something potentially good over a misunderstanding. Yes, she has the responsibility (especially now) to be aware of these situations, and she ****ed up, but she has to own that, too. Being accusatory will set a precedent going forward, and she may not want to be in a relationship like that, anyway, so tread carefully.
> 
> My wife has owned her share of these incidents that have occurred over our time together, and I trust and believe her. It does not completely excuse her for it, but she owns that, too.


Quoted because it MUST BE QUOTED...

I think this is key



> however, these scenarios are entirely possible, and one has to keep that in mind lest you throw away something potentially good over a misunderstanding. Yes, she has the responsibility (especially now) to be aware of these situations, and she ****ed up, but she has to own that, too. Being accusatory will set a precedent going forward, and she may not want to be in a relationship like that, anyway, so tread carefully.


Its not that you fvcked up.. Its that you have the courage/pair of balls/fortitude to admit the fvck up and take your lumps and act accordingly afterwards..

If I did anything wrong I would expect to get yelled at and verbally beaten down.. I expect to apologise for a day or two.. I expect the other person just not to get over it in 5 minutes.. I expect to maybe bring flowers if needed.. MY guilt is such that I would feel the need to make amends for being so stupid.. But again that is ME.. 

But I can tell you the ExGF would get offended.. She would not want me to talk to this other man. She would not want to talk to this other man.. She would threaten to break it off with me if I did.. Many of times I felt it was because I would not like what he said.. I even expressed that.. 

I think marduk dark triad fits the ExGF very, very well..
I would have to say she was a shark and way out of dating game.. But because we were playing by 2 different rules.. I just didn't see it and refused to see it..

But these are what these threads should be about.. Hearing a story.. Giving advice.. Explaining how it affected you.. How you fixed it or tried to fix it and when its time to let go when you can't fix it.. 

I can tell you over the past several years between here and therapy with a good therapist I am learning that there is really only so much to a person.. Only so many traits and characteristics that people possess. 

Mind you I am not looking to learn so I can fix.. I am looking to learn so I can spot them and stay away from them..

A friend of mine just told me, next time around you need to learn NOT to wait so long before you let someone go.. Next time realize and accept the person for what they are and cut them loose after months and not years if it isn't good for you and your kids..


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