# Forgiving yourself



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Forgiving yourself

I had another thread about forgiveness titled "Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS". That thread mostly talked about the BS forgiving the WS.


With this thread I wanted to get information about how a WS can forgive himself/herself. It seems that even those WS that are sincerely remorseful really struggle with forgiving themselves even when the BS forgives them.

I found an article titled "10 Ways To Forgive Yourself & Let Go Of The Past" and am reprinting it below to get this discussion going. Just because I am reprinting this article does not mean that I agree with everything in it but am using it to kick start the discussion.

*What do you all think of this article and what information or experience can you add?*


10 Ways To Forgive Yourself & Let Go Of The Past
Have you ever noticed how you can hold on to past mistakes long after they occurred? Some of us hold on to things for years! 
Forgiveness is a process. It does not happen over night and the process will be different for everyone. But no matter how long it takes, there's hope! Here are some steps you can take toward that journey: 

*1. Become clear on your morals and values as they are right now. *
The reason most of us feel guilt or shame for actions done in the past is because those actions are not in line with our current morals and values. Our past wrongs can actually clue us in to what we hold important. By identifying our morals and values, we start to get a clearer picture as to “why” we're hurting over what we've done, or what others did to us. 

*2. Realize that the past is the past. *
This seems fairly straightforward, but when we can really wrap our head around the fact that we can’t undo the past, the past is done, those things happened, we open ourselves up to more acceptance. Increased acceptance can lead to the emotional healing we are all looking for. 

*3. Create a “re-do.” *
Never underestimate the power of a “re-do”. Write down how you would have done things differently if you could go back and do it again. In doing so, we affirm that we not only learned from our past mistake, but that if we had the skills we have now, back then, we would have done things differently. 

*4. Realize you did the best you could at the time. *
The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain. 

*5. Start acting in accordance with your morals and values. *The best thing you can do for yourself in order to forgive is start replacing the negative behavior and thoughts with more appropriate ones that are congruous with your morals and values. By so doing, you reaffirm to yourself that you can handle situations in the way you want to. This can lead to a sense of pride, which is a huge part of building self-esteem. 
*
6. Identify your biggest regrets. *
When I work with clients on moving on from their past, it can be very overwhelming for them because they see so many regrets. It's often helpful to categorize these things because people often only hold on to a handful of big categories/patterns. Working on patterns of behavior is often more helpful than working on individual regrets. 

*7. Tackle the big ones. *
There may be some regrets that don’t seem to improve, and they’re going to require some extra work. I call it “clearing your conscience.” This means it might take bringing this regret into the room and apologizing for your past mistake. 

*8. Turn the page*. 
At some point, you have to accept that the past has happened and you’ve done everything in your power to amend past mistakes. It’s now time to turn the page and accept those events as part of your story. They've all contributed to making you who you are. Being grateful for those experiences allows you to move on and truly forgive yourself. 
*
9. Cut yourself some slack. *
When we learned how to ride a bike, most of us realized it would probably take a few tries before achieving perfection. New behavior and thinking patterns are no different. They're both skills. Cut yourself some slack while you’re on a new learning curve. Realize that you’re going to make mistakes. We all do. 

*10. Move toward self-love. *
The last step in building self-esteem is moving toward loving yourself. Think kind thoughts toward yourself and show yourself some compassion. If we can learn to think of ourselves as our best friend, to speak to ourselves with love and kindness, and put ourselves as a priority, it reaffirms that we believe we are worth it. Engage in psychotherapy or coaching if you need some outside perspective in this area. Seek books on this subject. Surround yourself with supportive people. 

You are more than your past mistakes, and I promise you, you are so worth it!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That was such a nice article, Mr. Blunt. I agree with everything in it.

Making peace with the past is so important. And we can't do it if we are not as honest as possible with ourselves, even when it is painful. Especially when it is painful.

You are one of the lights on TAM, Mr. Blunt. You bring love and you show us the path to true healing. Thank you.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I think the article is quite good, detailed and useful.

I think it is in lack, or short, of one important component: making amends towards those you wronged.

I think it's important to do this to fully understand the magnitude of your actions.

This also makes it easier for the offended party to forgive you.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Accepting the past behaviour as part of your life story: does that mean being able to talk about it without being defensive? 

Which steps are missing when defensiveness still exists? 

From the outside, how can you tell if there was a change of heart and moral compass when defensiveness still exists?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> 2. Realize that the past is the past.
> This seems fairly straightforward, but when we can really wrap our head around the fact that we can’t undo the past, the past is done, those things happened, we open ourselves up to more acceptance. Increased acceptance can lead to the emotional healing we are all looking for.
> 
> 
> ...






The two above are the first that popped out to me. Thinking and taking ACTIONS that are in line with your morals and values seem to be HUGE to me!

Being defeated, guilty and having low self worth are usually the first stages of remorse. Taking actions that prove you are consistent with your values makes a huge difference.
I have done some things that I am ashamed of and I used that shame and guilt to propel me to turn 180 degrees from that shameful action. In addition, I decided to take actions that were in line with my valued and now I focus on the positive actions that I have done and that helps a LOT!

I have experienced the two above as being true and helpful. Hope that others find help in this post.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Clip Clop*
> Accepting the past behavior as part of your life story: does that mean being able to talk about it without being defensive?
> 
> Which steps are missing when defensiveness still exists?
> ...







> Accepting the past behavior as part of your life story: does that mean being able to talk about it without being defensive?


 I did something that hurt another individual that involved me being selfish and inconsiderate of the others person. Using my situation to answer your question would mean that I being defensive would mean that steps are missing. If I am going to talk about it then I am going to be humble and not be defensive such as trying to talk about the stuff that maybe or look like an excuse.


I try and get to the double As, actions and attitudes, that will help me and the offended party even if there are some things that are involved that led me or tempted me to the hurtful action.







> From the outside, how can you tell if there was a change of heart and moral compass when defensiveness still exists?


 The biggest indicator of a change of moral compass is when I see ACTIONS that tell me there is a change. What is that they say? “ACTIONS speak louder than words.”

However, actions are not the only part of positive change. The Attitude is also important and being defensive in my case would mean that I still have more work to do on me.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *4. Realize you did the best you could at the time. *
> The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain.


This is probably the only one that I disagree with for me.

I did not do the best that I could at the time. I did what I did because I wanted something for me and I knew it was wrong but selfishness was my choice over what I knew as right. There was no survival or protection mode in my case just pure selfishness.

The above number 4 probably could be helpful for others that did something that they need to forgive themselves for but the one I am talking about for me; well the number 4 above is little bit of a cop-out


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

> 4. Realize you did the best you could at the time.
> The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain.


I think this one is impossible to apply in many situations. The choices I made that devastated my family and myself were not my BEST, by far. I knew I was doing things that left me intensely emotionally conflicted and nothing that I ever thought I'd do, before I found myself in the middle of it. So I can't forgive myself that. I regret not being more self-aware, more disciplined, less selfish and shortsighted. I appreciate the purpose of the list, but I think that is a major reason why so many remorseful WS's can't self-forgive. We could have and should have done better. We failed at something that we previously thought we wouldn't. And deliberately made choices that caused that failure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> 4. Realize you did the best you could at the time.
> The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain.
> 
> *By Mrs. Mathias*
> I think this one is impossible to apply in many situations. The choices I made that devastated my family and myself were not my BEST, by far. I knew I was doing things that left me intensely emotionally conflicted and nothing that I ever thought I'd do, before I found myself in the middle of it. So I can't forgive myself that. I regret not being more self-aware, more disciplined, less selfish and shortsighted. I appreciate the purpose of the list, but *I think that is a major reason why so many remorseful WS's can't self-forgive. We could have and should have done better. We failed at something that we previously thought we wouldn't. And deliberately made choices that caused that failure.*



I really like what Mrs. Matthias said in the underlined above. However, when I read the bolded part of Mrs. Matthias’s post I thought of number 10 reprinted below:




> *10. Move toward self-love. *
> The last step in building self-esteem is moving toward loving yourself. Think kind thoughts toward yourself and show yourself some compassion. If we can learn to think of ourselves as our best friend, to speak to ourselves with love and kindness, and put ourselves as a priority, it reaffirms that we believe we are worth it. Engage in psychotherapy or coaching if you need some outside perspective in this area. Seek books on this subject. Surround yourself with supportive people.
> 
> You are more than your past mistakes, and I promise you, you are so worth it!!


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



Mr Blunt said:


> This is probably the only one that I disagree with for me.
> 
> I did not do the best that I could at the time. I did what I did because I wanted something for me and I knew it was wrong but selfishness was my choice over what I knew as right. There was no survival or protection mode in my case just pure selfishness.
> 
> The above number 4 probably could be helpful for others that did something that they need to forgive themselves for but the one I am talking about for me; well the number 4 above is little bit of a cop-out


I just reread The Four Agreements, and this is actually one of them; always do your best. This includes understanding and accepting that your best isn't always the same. You may be tired, ill, weak at one moment while up to the task at other times.
The book is btw worth a read in case you haven't already.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I think the article is quite good, detailed and useful.
> 
> I think it is in lack, or short, of one important component: making amends towards those you wronged.
> 
> ...


What kinds of amends would you want from your partner, cpacan?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> This is probably the only one that I disagree with for me.
> 
> I did not do the best that I could at the time. I did what I did because I wanted something for me and I knew it was wrong but selfishness was my choice over what I knew as right. There was no survival or protection mode in my case just pure selfishness.
> 
> The above number 4 probably could be helpful for others that did something that they need to forgive themselves for but the one I am talking about for me; well the number 4 above is little bit of a cop-out


Mr. Blunt, my mom told me once that I did the best I felt like doing. Would you consider that a more accurate statement, sometimes, than I did the best I could?


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Mr Blunt said:


> *4. Realize you did the best you could at the time. *
> The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain.


That one was critical for me as a BS. How could I be so dumb as to believe ‘that’? How could I not see what was going on? All that hindsight after DD ripping you down and making you distrust your own judgement. 

I had to ‘go back’ and recreate what I knew back then and why I made the choices I did and weigh it against my morals and ethics at the time. Once done, I could see there really wasn’t anything to forgive myself for. I did what I thought was right for the right reasons. Can’t ask any more of myself.

So those others come into play too; How would I do it different now? What lesson did I learn? And that is incorporated into whom I am now.


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## Hurtin_Still (Oct 3, 2011)

*Re: Re: Forgiving yourself*



jld said:


> What kinds of amends would you want from your partner, cpacan?


....well ...I know what I'd want from my wife.

....but it seems that she was able to forgive herself immediately after her ONS ...and as such, didn't have the motivation to show remorse, have empathy, or want to make amends. And ...why would she? ....all was right with the world in her head .... having forgiven herself ....had no motivation to act accordingly.

......she has often said that she wasn't going to allow one mistake to define her life. 

.....how convenient ....for her.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



jld said:


> What kinds of amends would you want from your partner, cpacan?


I would like a few things. First, a heart felt and specific apology. Second, empathy - a sincere attempt to truly understand how much damage she did. Third, being proactive in the healing process instead of rug sweeping. Fourth, self examination and exploration instead of looking for external justifications. Basically, don't take me for granted, because I'm not, and show me that she's worth the risk.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



cpacan said:


> I would like a few things. First, a heart felt and specific apology. Second, empathy - a sincere attempt to truly understand how much damage she did. Third, being proactive in the healing process instead of rug sweeping. Fourth, self examination and exploration instead of looking for external justifications. Basically, don't take me for granted, because I'm not, and show me that she's worth the risk.


You have not gotten any of this? How painful. How can you stay?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Hurtin_Still said:


> ....well ...I know what I'd want from my wife.
> 
> ....but it seems that she was able to forgive herself immediately after her ONS ...and as such, didn't have the motivation to show remorse, have empathy, or want to make amends. And ...why would she? ....all was right with the world in her head .... having forgiven herself ....had no motivation to act accordingly.
> 
> ...


She sounds very prideful, HS.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

cpacan said:


> I think the article is quite good, detailed and useful.
> 
> I think it is in lack, or short, of one important component: making amends towards those you wronged.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

and of course it means aplogizing to the one wronged. i think there are plenty of people that have no problem forgiving themselves. especially if they just get to ride off into the sunset and never face the other person again.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



jld said:


> You have not gotten any of this? How painful. How can you stay?


I got an 80% apology, at a time when she wanted a vacation on her own. The rest of it, no. I don't believe she's capable.
On a positive note, she has changed some problematic behaviors radically, so I believe she's trying. 

That combined with my acceptance of future risk, protecting myself, focusing on myself and enjoying the moments makes it possible for me to stay. At least until the kids have grown.
If it doesn't work out, I know I'll be ok anyway.

Other than that, I would say that she has forgiven herself, except for being caught, of course. I wasn't supposed to know, you know, so she regrets that very much. Especially since we had a very good life together, according to her. She would very much like to have it all back. Not possible though.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My gosh. So prideful. I am sure you feel disrespected.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



jld said:


> My gosh. So prideful. I am sure you feel disrespected.


Yes, I do. But that won't happen again. We have an understanding that if I sense just one more lie from her going forward, I'll forgive her and forget her just like that.

Pride and foo issues, raised to rug sweep. So was I, but then I found TAM


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

*Re: Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



cpacan said:


> I would like a few things. First, a heart felt and specific apology. Second, empathy - a sincere attempt to truly understand how much damage she did. Third, being proactive in the healing process instead of rug sweeping. Fourth, self examination and exploration instead of looking for external justifications. Basically, don't take me for granted, because I'm not, and show me that she's worth the risk.


This is why I divorced my wife, she just wanted to pretend like nothing happened and to get on with our lives. F that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

*Re: Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



nickgtg said:


> This is why I divorced my wife, she just wanted to pretend like nothing happened and to get on with our lives. F that.


But you said that she hated herself, right? Don't you think that shows remorse?


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

*Re: Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



jld said:


> But you said that she hated herself, right? Don't you think that shows remorse?


I believe in my heart that she says that so she can get sympathy from me. That doesn't work anymore. I know what true remorse is, and she has never shown it. It's easy to say you're sorry, it's another thing to show it by your actions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, actions do speak louder than words. 

It is good you liberated both of you. I hope you will each find happiness.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> 4. Realize you did the best you could at the time.
> 
> The way we respond depends on the skills we have, the frame of mind we’re in, and how we perceive the situation at that moment. Maybe we didn’t have as much objectivity, or acted out of survival or protection mode. Maybe we'd let stress build up, which put us at a higher risk of responding poorly. Whatever the factors, cut yourself a break. If you learn from it, it was never in vain.
> 
> ...



Again, using my situation described above, “I did the best I felt like doing”, is not a more accurate statement. I am very weary of using feelings as a barometer for making decisions. Feelings can be very fickle and cannot always be trusted.
*How many times have we read about the betrayer using feelings to decide to cheat or not?* Cheating often uses feelings as the catalyst for infidelity.

Now if you are talking about a different situation with your mother than my situation then I would have to hear the details to fully answer your question.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Again, using my situation described above, “I did the best I felt like doing”, is not a more accurate statement. I am very weary of using feelings as a barometer for making decisions. Feelings can be very fickle and cannot always be trusted.
> *How many times have we read about the betrayer using feelings to decide to cheat or not?* Cheating often uses feelings as the catalyst for infidelity.
> 
> Now if you are talking about a different situation with your mother than my situation then I would have to hear the details to fully answer your question.


Thanks, Mr. Blunt. It was just something silly with my mom, like how I had cleaned out the fridge or something. I don't even remember anymore. 

But that phrase just stuck in my head all these years. "I did the best I felt like doing," just resonated with me, I guess.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

I kind of find 2 and 3 contradicting each other. I agree with number 2. The past is the past and it cant be undone yet number 3 tells you to play the woulda/coulda game. We don't have the luxury of changing the past you can only work towards making a better future.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

*Sv: Re: Forgiving yourself*



honcho said:


> I kind of find 2 and 3 contradicting each other. I agree with number 2. The past is the past and it cant be undone yet number 3 tells you to play the woulda/coulda game. We don't have the luxury of changing the past you can only work towards making a better future.


I believe it's about reprogramming your brain and learning a new pattern.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I agree about rehearsing better responses, not so much pretending to have a do over.

And sometime week has cheated should not look for opportunities to not cheat... To find someone to turn down so the best they can do is rehearse better responses. 

A lot of time is put into cheating. It takes more planning because the logistics are trickier. The planning is reinforcing to the cheating.

But I think too much going over the events can also keep some of the excitement alive and that is a danger.

I don't buy that the person was doing the best they could. They knew what they were doing was wrong. That's why they hid it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Read this article a couple weeks ago regarding forgiveness and I thought some points interesting to this discussion. 

It’s well known that when a person takes steps to make amends for a wrongdoing, the victim is more inclined to forgive and forget. However, exactly why that happens is less obvious and poorly understood. In a recent study, scientists made substantial progress in explaining the psychological processes that make forgiveness happen.

Their findings show that peacemaking efforts such as apologies, offers of compensation and owning up to one’s responsibility increase forgiveness—and reduce anger—by making the aggressor seem more valuable as a relationship partner and by causing the victim to feel less at risk of getting hurt again by the transgressor.

“All of the things that people are motivated to do when they have harmed someone they care about really do appear to be effective at helping victims forgive and get over their anger,” said Michael McCullough, professor of psychology in the University of Miami College of Arts and Sciences and principal investigator of the study. “People often think that evolution designed people to be mean, violent, and selfish, but humans need relationship partners, so natural selection probably also gave us tools to help us restore important relationships after they have been damaged by conflict.”

“It's one of the largest, longest, and, we think, most definitive studies of the effects of conciliatory gestures on human conflict resolution ever conducted,” McCullough said. 

The findings show that the extent to which a transgressor offered conciliatory gestures to their victims was directly proportional to the extent to which those victims forgave over time. Conciliatory gestures also appeared to change the victim’s perceptions about the relationship and the aggressor. 

The study, “Conciliatory gestures promote human forgiveness and reduce anger,” is now published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Other authors are Eric J. Pedersen; from UM’s Department of Psychology; Evan Carter, from University of Minnesota, and Benjamin A. Tabak from University of California, Los Angeles. All the co-authors were graduate students at UM’s Department of Psychology at the time the work was conducted.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm surprised that that's considered groundbreaking. 

did they happen to mention anything about delaying sport did not response ability of person long term ability to forgive?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> With this thread I wanted to get information about how a WS can forgive himself/herself.







> *2. Realize that the past is the past. *


I'm sure this works well and is desired by the WS. Not so much the BS.

If someone that cheated told me that the past was in the past, my first reaction? "easy for you to say"




> *4. Realize you did the best you could at the time. *


Really?? The best that someone could do at the time is to F other people?

Sorry, but the best someone could do at the time, no matter what their justifications would be if they had cheated, is to not cheat and deal with it another way, That would be fixing things, or leaving if it was too much to bear.


Now the rest of your list I agree with.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I know I had to forgive *myself* for not being stronger after D-Day and getting myself into limbo. That took a long time for me to do. I was very very angry at myself for not doing a better job.

I was also so stunned and angered and shocked for days and weeks it was even hard for me to put the pain into words. I found a good description on the CWI Newbie thread and wished I had printed that out for our couples therapy, just to frame it. Our therapist had no real experience with this kind of thing. She was terrible in fact.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Staystrong
> I know I had to forgive *myself* for not being stronger after D-Day and getting myself into limbo. That took a long time for me to do. I was very very angry at myself for not doing a better job.
> 
> I was also so stunned and angered and shocked for days and weeks it was even hard for me to put the pain into words. I found a good description on the CWI Newbie thread and wished I had printed that out for our couples therapy, just to frame it. Our therapist had no real experience with this kind of thing. She was terrible in fact.



Many are weakened when the spouse surprises the BS with betrayal. I do not know the specifics of what “being stronger” means in your case. You stated that your wife had several betrayals before you married her so if you think that you being stronger would have saved her; well I do not think that you could have saved her and or your marriahe at all. *Betrayal is often an inside situation where the betrayer has a major internal integrity character breakdown. The fix it for that is usually only within the betrayer.*


My guess is that your wife has a very broken internal integrity character that was broken before you came along.





*StayStrong
What do you think about the “10 Ways To Forgive Yourself & Let Go Of The Past” that I posted on the first post?*


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Many are weakened when the spouse surprises the BS with betrayal. I do not know the specifics of what “being stronger” means in your case. You stated that your wife had several betrayals before you married her so if you think that you being stronger would have saved her; well I do not think that you could have saved her and or your marriahe at all. *Betrayal is often an inside situation where the betrayer has a major internal integrity character breakdown. The fix it for that is usually only within the betrayer.*
> 
> 
> My guess is that your wife has a very broken internal integrity character that was broken before you came along.
> ...



I had the moral high ground but I had the instinctual low ground. 

She was using man-eating instinct, and she knew I didn't want to lose her. So I lost a lot of my self-respect at times. No begging but some definite doormatting and embarrassing moments amongst taking stands. Ugh.. worst feeling. All the weight drop and inability to think straight. Not being able to articulate what I wanted to say at the right time. All the anxiety and depression, fear of losing her to OM. I felt like it was the fight of my life, to salvage the family. Going crazy at the idea of her having been with someone else and preferred it. It was mind games and terrible crap. I was in love with someone who didn't love me and that repulsed her. Wife turned enemy.. and I didn't want the kids to see me "lose". The self-doubt, felt I had failed or else why else would she have done this? All the standard stuff. Too physically weak to get stuff done. Too dazed and confused to man up, I suppose. I needed meds in a serious way. 

Some people don't apply morals to love lives and relationships.

Unfortunately.

I think your 10 Ways is good. Hope WS's are receptive to it, though we know those in full-on EA's and PA's usually aren't until later in the R process.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

StayStrong

*What do you think about you getting a plan of action to think ONLY about you and your children?* Your wife is history and you having her on your thoughts are very detrimental to you, IMO.

Perhaps you would consider adding the number 10 below, “moving toward self love” as one of your action plans. It has been around two years and I think that you are allotting too much time and thought about your ex-wife. You stated decently that you are still bitter toward her, and she most certainly deserves to be called a serial cheater, but you getting better is much more important than allowing this woman that ripped your heart out to continue to hurt you.




> *10. Move toward self-love. *
> The last step in building self-esteem is moving toward loving yourself. Think kind thoughts toward yourself and show yourself some compassion. If we can learn to think of ourselves as our best friend, to speak to ourselves with love and kindness, and put ourselves as a priority, it reaffirms that we believe we are worth it. Engage in psychotherapy or coaching if you need some outside perspective in this area. Seek books on this subject. Surround yourself with supportive people.
> 
> You are more than your past mistakes, and I promise you, you are so worth it!!



You also seem to be really down on yourself for “doormatting” and your failures in not being able to correct your wife or keep her from betraying the whole family and reconciling. Your wife is a serial cheater and your perceived or real failures had nothing to do with your wife being a serial cheater; she was one before she met you. I know you are upset because you wanted your wife to R with you and you may still want that. However, maybe the number 2 below. “Realize that the past is the past” could be something that you could incorporate into your plan of action for you getting better. *What do you think?*




> *2. Realize that the past is the past. *
> This seems fairly straightforward, but when we can really wrap our head around the fact that we can’t undo the past, the past is done, those things happened, we open ourselves up to more acceptance. Increased acceptance can lead to the emotional healing we are all looking for.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> StayStrong
> 
> *What do you think about you getting a plan of action to think ONLY about you and your children?* Your wife is history and you having her on your thoughts are very detrimental to you, IMO.
> 
> ...



No, I would never R with my XW. 

My situation is different, Mr. B. Yes, I suffered much more than I needed due to the lack of human and medical support here, and my isolation. I developed a very serious stress disorder that I didn't know how to treat, and which initial medical attempts failed to treat. Basically I lost a year and a half in my own personal hell, trying to reconstruct my life in a foreign land with no friends or family. It was the disorder that kept me trapped in a trauma loop and ineffective in my daily life. I knew I had it, but could do nothing about it. I was overwhelmed, had multiple nervous breakdowns, spent months on end with suicidal thoughts. Couldn't speak with the natives, etc etc. Here in a small town with triggers galore. Job prospects were reduced to freelance work. All of the ineffectiveness made me feel worse about myself, creating a vicious cycle. I lacked the normal social and financial stability most people are accustomed to. 

Coming out of that, I decided to go back to running my own virtual businesses, taking better care of my kids and socializing more. The kinds of things most people would do shorty after separation or divorce. That's been going okay and I would definitely date someone. My issue is that I don't speak the language fluently (takes years to learn) and a real social life would require I hang out in the bigger city about an hour from here. So I could be better about socializing, for sure. The meet up stuff I've looked at seems kind of lame, and I've taken a stab at the online dating profile but everyone seems to live too far away or I am not interested. 

If I was in my home country with my kids, I'd be fine. But that's not possible to achieve except during vacations.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think you'd have to be in my situation to understand how the past affected every area of my life. 

Not being able to speak the language of a country is a real barrier to growth and success. So if I seem bitter than most, I probably am. 

I don't want to move because I don't want to spend less time with my children. If the legal consequences had not been so dire, I would've taken them back to my own country. Maybe. I don't know. I feel like I am sacrificing a lot, but not trying to be a martyr. 

I would to not work alone, and I would prefer to meet someone. 

But of those things are very difficult in present circumstances. 

Hope you understand.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> Forgiving yourself
> 
> I had another thread about forgiveness titled "Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS". That thread mostly talked about the BS forgiving the WS.
> 
> ...


The above is probably what nmy old man did when he, a cheater, finally became the cheated-on and found religion and 'God'.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I resemble a lot of those remarks, staystrong. I'd love to read how you have handled it and made strides in reducing the anxiety and loneliness. I'd love to know how you got strong enough to trust just enough to have a little more life. Right now, I don't have one and don't really want a life, bad enough to do anything about it. 

I still love and hate x2. I still have horrible resentment and repressed anger. I won't ... too much for this thread and a hijack. I just want to let you know I'd be interested in your journey.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I resemble a lot of those remarks, staystrong. I'd love to read how you have handled it and made strides in reducing the anxiety and loneliness. I'd love to know how you got strong enough to trust just enough to have a little more life. Right now, I don't have one and don't really want a life, bad enough to do anything about it.
> 
> I still love and hate x2. I still have horrible resentment and repressed anger. I won't ... too much for this thread and a hijack. I just want to let you know I'd be interested in your journey.


Get on the proper medication.

I'm normally a very resourceful person and maybe that's what pushed me to try and "do it on my own". That and I had already entered chronic PTSD by the time I took my first meds. When you're in the chronic state, you don't think anything will help and therefore don't seek treatment. It's a symptom of the disorder. So that would be my first suggestion.

Part of my issue was that there was not a single person here who had known me for more than a year, and only barely so. So I was going out of my mind and people couldn't tell the changes enough to know it wasn't just grief. I was completely fixated.There were no English speaking psychs in the immediate area and I guess I didn't realize how badly I needed the meds. I just thought life was over, basically. Had I'd had meds early on, I'm sure I would be in much much better shape, as would my kids. So seek medical attention.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

It's sort of relevant to this thread. 

You have to be in the right emotional state to forgive your mistakes and not be killed by self-doubt, shame, guilt, etc. 

Rationally, you know it's the WS's poor choices, but your mind will still nag at "Why? How could she? Why wasn't I good enough". I mean, she gave her heart and body to someone else. She broke up her family for someone else. It's a giant FU to your manhood, your core, your past, your future. 

Think about it this way:
The WS and the AP have themselves to absolve them of their sins. They can hold each other in their arms and basically say "Yes, it was wrong, but our love was worth it." Don't forget that most WS do feel guilt and conflict. Many do try and 'fight' for their marriage but keep getting sucked back in. Or running back. It may not seem that way to us, but that's how they feel. Few WS's are truly being 'used' by a predatorial person, though we may feel AP's are intrusive. Which they are. 

You have no one's arms to run into. It's really only the WayWard who can TRULY heal the wounds of the betrayed. If they can't, the BS must reconstruct alone, which is a god-awful mess. If you normally had an open heart, you'll find it hardening. Some of that is good, too much will harm you. Don't let a lack of increased emotional stability drag you down into the depths. If you're too messed up to go to the gym, listen to music or read books, you should be on meds. IMO


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

I 'forgave' myself in a different way.
I divorced my wife, got my own apartment, got into great shape, got myself a Honda CBR600 and I've got a 31-yr old girlfriend.


Sure, still have problems...I go to therapy still...but I'm slowly forgiving mysef for those, too.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

are you the cheater?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> are you the cheater?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:slap:

I see that you saw what I did there! lol


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