# First dates - who pays?



## PAgirl

Is it still typically the man that pays for dinner? Or do you go dutch? Last couple dates (all first dates) For an $80 dollar dinner bill...I offered to pay the tip. But I felt a little bad about it like that wasn't enough. Maybe men feel weird asking the woman to pay their half. I am starting to think I should offer to pay my half.. or not offer but literally insist on it. What is typical nowadays?


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## PBear

When I had a few first dates before, I always planned on paying for it all. If the woman offered to pay (or even go Dutch), I'd refuse, but appreciate the offer. If she offered to pay the tip, I'd probably accept that if she really wanted to. If she INSISTED on paying (or doing Dutch) I guess I'd accept if she was making a big stink about it, but there likely wouldn't be a second date. Maybe I'm too old-fashioned (or chauvinistic). I would, however, accept an offer to pay "next time". 

Just IMHO... 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

if I were single, the woman should pay for the whole date cause I'm just that awesome


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## pragmaster

I think it's socially expected that men pay the first date. Feminists would hate to hear that but it's true.

I always pay for the first date but ONLY the first date. Chick usually tips.

If during the date you find out she is a feminist, go dutch. 

Just don't hesitate and make it weird come bill time. Lead. As long as it's not awkward I think anything goes. 

When you don't pay for the bill and you are upfront about it, that creates emotional tension. Not a bad thing from everything I have read from Dr.Glover. It shows gusta.


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## PAgirl

What about when a man invites the woman out "for a drink" but you are meeting at more of a bar/restaurant at 7pm...which is dinnertime and I am most likely going to be hungry? Should I specify right off the bat that hey, Im gonna get a burger and I will pay for it or say lets order some food and split the bill?


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## PBear

PAgirl said:


> What about when a man invites the woman out "for a drink" but you are meeting at more of a bar/restaurant at 7pm...which is dinnertime and I am most likely going to be hungry? Should I specify right off the bat that hey, Im gonna get a burger and I will pay for it or say lets order some food and split the bill?


That was my first date with my SO... Started with a drink, ended up with an expensive steak dinner, followed by a make-out session in her car after... I still smile every time I walk past that restaurant! . And I paid for the date. 

Btw, all bets would be off if my date was richer than God. I would have been happy to be a kept man. . But I make more money than anyone I ever dated, so there you go...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar

PAgirl said:


> *Is it still typically the man that pays for dinner*? Or do you go dutch? Last couple dates (all first dates) For an $80 dollar dinner bill...I offered to pay the tip. But I felt a little bad about it like that wasn't enough. Maybe men feel weird asking the woman to pay their half. I am starting to think I should offer to pay my half.. or not offer but literally insist on it. What is typical nowadays?


There are women in the online realm that practically make a living off the assumption that the man is going to pay the whole thing...free meals out most of the week...what a deal...for her


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## PAgirl

Well I have this date tonight so any advice?  We both have good established careers. The only difference is that I am a single parent of two, and he has no children. So I assume that he has more money than me. But for a first date, I really don't want to give the impression that I "expect" him to pay. So should I offer to before the date starts? Or wait till the bill arrives? Like I said, he invited me out for a drink. So I just don't know what to do about the food bill.


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## Almostrecovered

offer at check time or if ordering food, don't push, if he insists tell him you'll get the next time (that is if you want a second date, this also has the addition of letting him you're interested in him)


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## PBear

Almostrecovered said:


> offer at check time or if ordering food, don't push, if he insists tell him you'll get the next time (that is if you want a second date, this also has the addition of letting him you're interested in him)


This. Offering is good, insisting is bad. In my books, at least. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toonaive

If I invite, I automatically assume im paying, but I am old fashioned that way. I am sure when the bill comes, it will become clearer to you, don't over think it.


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## firebelly1

Thanks for asking this question. I've wondered the same thing. But the guys still haven't answered your question - does she offer to pay for her own food up front? If it were me, I'd probably eat beforehand and not have to deal with whether or not to ask him to pay for that since he just invited for drinks.


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## PBear

Well, what about letting him know that you won't have time to eat before the date, so you'll be getting a bite there. That way, HE won't be sitting there watching you eat because he scarfed downs Big Mac in the parking lot. 

Communication. Does wonders. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

make sure to order the most expensive dish on the menu and hardly touch your food


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## PAgirl

PBear said:


> Well, what about letting him know that you won't have time to eat before the date, so you'll be getting a bite there. That way, HE won't be sitting there watching you eat because he scarfed downs Big Mac in the parking lot.
> 
> Communication. Does wonders.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually wont have time to eat beforehand... So should I text him this? But then Im suddenly turning his invite from drinks to dinner and drinks. How does this sound "hey I may be ordering something to eat while there just to let you know.. and I will cover whatever I get, no worries" 

Oh and yes, I do tend to over think things lol! That's just me


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## PAgirl

Almostrecovered said:


> make sure to order the most expensive dish on the menu and hardly touch your food


You're a riot!


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## PBear

PA, I'd drop the last part. Talking about money at this point is gauche. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## firebelly1

See...you're not overthinking it. Otherwise there wouldn't be all this advice.


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## PAgirl

PBear said:


> Well, what about letting him know that you won't have time to eat before the date, so you'll be getting a bite there. That way, HE won't be sitting there watching you eat because he scarfed downs Big Mac in the parking lot.
> 
> Communication. Does wonders.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really good advice! Last date with someone else was with someone who had eaten dinner already, and I did not eat. So he had some chips while I ate a burger. and he paid, and I felt a little awkward. So this time around, I think its a good idea to specify whether we are eating or not


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## Dollystanford

I don't see a problem at all with a guy paying for the full date. However, I would always offer something (and agree that offering is fine but not to push it as that's rude) and I would feel uncomfortable if there were more dates and he always insisted on paying

God am such a feminazi


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## Almostrecovered

Dollystanford said:


> God am such a feminazi


You are hereby arrested in conjunction with the murder of Sex


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## 4x4

When my wife and I dated, the person who asked the other out paid.


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## Dollystanford

Oh did I murder sex? I'd quite like to have it again so I do hope not


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## PAgirl

4x4 said:


> When my wife and I dated, the person who asked the other out paid.


Now that can be confusing for this situation! We were talking about our occupations and I jokingly said to him "So you are a Buyer? How about buying me a beer sometime?" and he said "That made me laugh. You're on!" 

So did I ask him out!?


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## Almostrecovered

well you asked him out but you also asked him to pay for your beer


this is awfully confusing- where's Miss Manners these days?


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## Relationship

The man pays unless the woman insists and feels uncomfortable. You do not however, have to take her to an 80.00 dollar dinner, and if she orders the most expensive item, that may also tell you everything you need to know.


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## PAgirl

Almostrecovered said:


> well you asked him out but you also asked him to pay for your beer
> 
> 
> this is awfully confusing- where's Miss Manners these days?


Ugh I know! Well that comment was over a week ago. And there has been lots of texting back and forth since in which I didn't say anything about going out. A few nights ago, he asked if I still wanted to get a beer one night later in the week.. Thursday or Friday. 

So I think he asked me out too? lol


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## Almostrecovered




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## PAgirl

Ok funny! So what should I do? Does this change things?


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## Almostrecovered

PAgirl's predate concerns- should I pay?

Guy's predate concern- Trojan or Durex?


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## Almostrecovered

PAgirl said:


> Ok funny! So what should I do? Does this change things?



I stand by my original answr


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## PAgirl

:rofl: Im cracking up!


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## PAgirl

Ok I will let him know that I will pay because he is just so awesome! Just kidding! I guess I will text him to let him know im gonna be getting something to eat tonight. Then offer to pay for food when check comes. That's what I got out of the advice


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## firebelly1

That's how I'm understanding it PA. Text him in advance to let him know you're going to eat something (FOOD) and then offer (but don't insist) to pay when the bill comes.


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## firebelly1

Let us know how it goes!


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## PBear

firebelly1 said:


> Let us know how it goes!


Especially if you get lucky! 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Q tip

Almostrecovered said:


> if I were single, the woman should pay for the whole date cause I'm just that awesome


Tru dat


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## PAgirl

So because I texted him earlier letting him know I was going to eat there, he purposely didn't eat (he told me this) so that was good! Im glad I communicated there! So we both looked at the menu and decided together to share a lobster pizza and crabfries  It was SO good! And when the bill came he took it and put his credit card down on it. I immediately said, Oh I don't mind helping with the bill! And he was all smiles and said "No, no, I got it" I said "Are you sure? I was the one that pretty much asked you out (smiling)" and he laughed and said "No really! I got it". So that part was all good. 

We had great chemistry. Constant flow of conversation and lots of laughs! He is very attractive. We have a lot in common too. After dinner, he said "want to go to ___ ___?" (name of upscale bar that is down the street). I said sure. So we went in his car there and had a beer and more laughs. Then he drove me back to my car at the previous place and got out and walked me over to my car. Then we both looked at each other with big smiles and he grabbed my face and French kissed me for a good 20 seconds! Ohhhh that was AWESOME. Then he pulled back and said "I had a great time. Talk to you tomorrow" 

So overall, a success! My only concern is that he was in a relationship with a girl that lasted one year and they broke up Labor day weekend (one month ago). And he told me why (this girl had a crazy short temper and he witnessed one too many outbursts from her) and I do believe that is over. But he said he was brokenhearted and now he is "transitioning" from that. Hmmm. Well, we will see. I am hoping to hear from him again but I am letting him make the first contact.


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## PBear

Nice writeup! . Hope we helped!

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon

pragmaster said:


> I think it's socially expected that men pay the first date. Feminists would hate to hear that but it's true.
> 
> *I always pay for the first date but ONLY the first date. Chick usually tips*.
> 
> If during the date you find out she is a feminist, go dutch.
> 
> Just don't hesitate and make it weird come bill time. Lead. As long as it's not awkward I think anything goes.
> 
> When you don't pay for the bill and you are upfront about it, that creates emotional tension. Not a bad thing from everything I have read from Dr.Glover. It shows gusta.


A lot of young women subsist on having first dates lined up many days of the week. If the table were turned, I would too if I had women I barely knew at all lined up to give me free meals, drinks and gifts.


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## ILuvTheDesserts

PAgirl said:


> Is it still typically the man that pays for dinner? Or do you go dutch? Last couple dates (all first dates) For an $80 dollar dinner bill...I offered to pay the tip. But I felt a little bad about it like that wasn't enough. Maybe men feel weird asking the woman to pay their half. I am starting to think I should offer to pay my half.. or not offer but literally insist on it. What is typical nowadays?


Im old school or perhaps just old ........... 

The male should pay for the 1st date ..... the entire bill including the tip. No ands , ifs , buts about it. Just my opinion.


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## tulsy

ILuvTheDesserts said:


> Im old school or perhaps just old ...........
> 
> The male should pay for the 1st date ..... the entire bill including the tip. No ands , ifs , buts about it. Just my opinion.


Only if you're dating an "old-school" chick.

BTW, that old school burnt down in the 1950's. Women work and can pay their share these days.

If the date is going good enough that you know there will be a second date with her, then sure, be a "gentleman" and pay for the date.

If the date is mediocre, and she's into "weird chit" that just doesn't jive with your lifestyle, fawk it, go Dutch and split the bill.

It's 2014. Guys need to wake up to reality.
Google the term "dinner wh0re".


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## Wolf1974

firebelly1 said:


> Thanks for asking this question. I've wondered the same thing. But the guys still haven't answered your question - does she offer to pay for her own food up front? If it were me, I'd probably eat beforehand and not have to deal with whether or not to ask him to pay for that since he just invited for drinks.


The short and sad version of th story is that I have personally, and also know a few friends, who were used for free meals. I kid 
You not. I was told some women make a game of this and didn't believe it till I had it happen twice. Would have a third time but I had new established rules for dating so she refused to go out unless I bought her dinners lol.

First date is either coffee or a couple beers maybe over happy hour. Try to keep things short as it's just an introduction to see if they are as genuine as I hope they are. I always pay for this or split it if she asks but either way it's never much even if I am seeing multiple people that weekend.

Second date is outside. I love to hike. Many online profiles state they are in shape and love to hike...so I make them prove it lol. No money just a long hike. Since nothing to do but walk and talk it's a great great way to get to know one another.

If I'm still digging her third date is dinner. I'm paying.


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## Wolf1974

PAgirl said:


> So because I texted him earlier letting him know I was going to eat there, he purposely didn't eat (he told me this) so that was good! Im glad I communicated there! So we both looked at the menu and decided together to share a lobster pizza and crabfries  It was SO good! And when the bill came he took it and put his credit card down on it. I immediately said, Oh I don't mind helping with the bill! And he was all smiles and said "No, no, I got it" I said "Are you sure? I was the one that pretty much asked you out (smiling)" and he laughed and said "No really! I got it". So that part was all good.
> 
> We had great chemistry. Constant flow of conversation and lots of laughs! He is very attractive. We have a lot in common too. After dinner, he said "want to go to ___ ___?" (name of upscale bar that is down the street). I said sure. So we went in his car there and had a beer and more laughs. Then he drove me back to my car at the previous place and got out and walked me over to my car. Then we both looked at each other with big smiles and he grabbed my face and French kissed me for a good 20 seconds! Ohhhh that was AWESOME. Then he pulled back and said "I had a great time. Talk to you tomorrow"
> 
> *So overall, a success! My only concern is that he was in a relationship with a girl that lasted one year and they broke up Labor day weekend (one month ago). And he told me why (this girl had a crazy short temper and he witnessed one too many outbursts from her) and I do believe that is over. But he said he was brokenhearted and now he is "transitioning" from that. Hmmm. Well, we will see. I am hoping to hear from him again but I am letting him make the first contact.*




why the concern? Is it the length of time? One month of being broken up is like 7 months In guy world. No worries :smthumbup:


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## Wolf1974

ILuvTheDesserts said:


> Im old school or perhaps just old ...........
> 
> The male should pay for the 1st date ..... the entire bill including the tip. No ands , ifs , buts about it. Just my opinion.


That's all fine and dandy if you have the money or don't care....just be aware some will use you for your generosity and then have another date lined up after or ditch you to go party with their friends.


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## ellaenchanted

I'm one of those girls that feel reaaaaly uncomfortable when a guy pays for me, I think that the girl should offer. If the guy insists, then at least the girl tried. 
It's 2014, not all guys make better money women these days. And I, as a women am secure so I don't think that the man should be the only one to pay. It has to be fair but ofcourse some men want to pay all the tine which is fair enough.


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## firebelly1

Wolf1974 said:


> The short and sad version of th story is that I have personally, and also know a few friends, who were used for free meals. I kid
> You not. I was told some women make a game of this and didn't believe it till I had it happen twice. Would have a third time but I had new established rules for dating so she refused to go out unless I bought her dinners lol.
> 
> First date is either coffee or a couple beers maybe over happy hour. Try to keep things short as it's just an introduction to see if they are as genuine as I hope they are. I always pay for this or split it if she asks but either way it's never much even if I am seeing multiple people that weekend.
> 
> Second date is outside. I love to hike. Many online profiles state they are in shape and love to hike...so I make them prove it lol. No money just a long hike. Since nothing to do but walk and talk it's a great great way to get to know one another.
> 
> If I'm still digging her third date is dinner. I'm paying.


This is a good dating strategy!

Not sure how those girls looking for free meals sleep at night.


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## PAgirl

firebelly1 said:


> This is a good dating strategy!
> 
> Not sure how those girls looking for free meals sleep at night.


They sleep well with nice full bellies along with a full wallet  I agree, I think its a low thing of anyone to do.


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## PAgirl

Update: So the next day after our date, he told me that he didn't want to jump into anything serious since he was still a little upset from his last relationship but he wanted us to take things casually since he had a really great time with me. So I agreed that casual is best. Then Saturday, I heard from him again and we texted each other a lot back and forth which was making me think that he was more interested in me than I had thought. Sunday, no word. But I didn't get discouraged. This morning, he texts me and asks me if I would like to go out Saturday night with his good friend and his wife. So now Im thinking, wow a double date! But then I just checked the online dating site that we met on and happened to notice he updated his profile. He changed the headline and added more things to his "interests". Now I feel discouraged again. What does this mean?


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## PBear

It means hes not seeing you exclusively. He hasn't said you are, so he's not doing anything wrong. But if that's not what you're looking for, at least you know. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PAgirl

You are right. Its another lesson in the dating world. Once you find that click or chemistry with someone, which is pretty hard to find I think, its easy to let yourself fantasize about this becoming the ever promising romance. LOL! I think I just need to keep my expectations low and I think I will be better off.


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## unbelievable

Hard for me to imagine any non-homeless guy expecting his female date to pay or split the check.


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## Hardtohandle

unbelievable said:


> Hard for me to imagine any non-homeless guy expecting his female date to pay or split the check.


I have a friend who is pretty up front about that.. 

Actually he tells women upfront that basically he wants to know them before doing anything crazy or expensive.. His point is if a women is gonna look at him and judge him for where they go out and not the company, then they are not worth dating..

In many ways he makes sense.. 

But he pretty much tells them. I pay a lot in child support and I can afford spending 300 dollars on a date.. 

Me on the other hand I don't go out if I am tight for money.. 

Sadly in NYC just about every dinner and drinks/nightclub afterwards is a 300 dollar night.. At the end of a month even I wonder sometimes.. I'm having a good time though, which is what counts.. 

The GF has started to pay a bit as she starting to notice the bills for dinner and drinks.. I don't make her pay as much as she offers. But once in a while I let her pay.. I just hate that she wants sex afterwards... Makes me feel cheap..


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## lonelyhusband321

Totally old fashioned - and I know that - but the guy pays....period!

If the lady is in it for a quick meal, it's a very small investment to find that out.....and to move on!


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## bravenewworld

unbelievable said:


> Hard for me to imagine any non-homeless guy expecting his female date to pay or split the check.


Agreed. Down the road I will offer "you got this dinner, I got the next" but never on a first date. I don't even do the fake wallet reach. 

That said, I've been on first dates to $$$$ restaurants and also first dates where the guy put a blanket down in the park and we enjoyed a $5 bottle of wine. It's not how much he spends - it's the feeling of being a bit pampered and taken care of. For me personally, it's a major component to seduction. 

I'd like to add - it is so crass to split the bill like you're two co-workers having a business meeting. Either make it obvious you will trade off with paying ("This time it's on me.") OR choose a place/activity where paying is not a hardship.


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## Jellybeans

I always offer to split the bill on a first date. 9 out of 10 times (probably closer to 95%), the date tells me no, that they will pay for it. This is what happened on my last first date.


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## Jellybeans

tulsy said:


> Only if you're dating an "old-school" chick.
> 
> BTW, that old school burnt down in the 1950's. Women work and can pay their share these days.
> 
> If the date is going good enough that you know there will be a second date with her, then sure, be a "gentleman" and pay for the date.
> 
> If the date is mediocre, and she's into "weird chit" that just doesn't jive with your lifestyle, fawk it, go Dutch and split the bill.
> 
> It's 2014. Guys need to wake up to reality.
> *Google the term "dinner wh0re"*.


What a pleasant way to describe women. I am not old by any means and do not use people for "meals." Yes, many women work and can "pay their share" as you say, but I hardly think it's a crime if someone offers to pay on the first date if they have invited you out. I always always offer to split the bill. 



PAgirl said:


> So the next day after our date, he told me that he didn't want to jump into anything serious since he was still a little upset from his last relationship but he wanted us to take things casually since he had a really great time with me. So I agreed that casual is best.
> 
> This morning, he texts me and asks me if I would like to go out Saturday night with his good friend and his wife. So now Im thinking, wow a double date! But then I just checked the online dating site that we met on and happened to notice he updated his profile. He changed the headline and added more things to his "interests". Now I feel discouraged again. What does this mean?


It means you are seeing him casually. Don't expect a serious relationship from this. Enjoy it, have fun and know you are likely a rebound dating relationship for him since he's so fresh out of his last relationship. If you aren't looking for that, then don't bother with him. If you want to just have fun and go out, go for it.



PAgirl said:


> I think I just need to keep my expectations low and I think I will be better off.


:iagree:

As for when to bring up paying on a first date: personally I find it rude to discuss this before you've even sat down. Just my own etiquette rules. This should be discussed when the bill arrives (or right before).


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## Healer

So the conclusion we've come to on this subject matter is...no conclusion at all.

I had a date with a really cool gal a few weeks back. We met and had a few drinks and shared some food. Bill came, I paid (no hesitation - it was my intention). She didn't say thanks. Have to admit, that put me off a bit. Maybe she forgot, but to me, it's common courtesy. It was a $70 tab. I pay child support...I'm not rolling in it.

My first thought was "she's feels entitled". She contacted me a few times after, I didn't see her again.


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## PAgirl

Healer said:


> So the conclusion we've come to on this subject matter is...no conclusion at all.
> 
> I had a date with a really cool gal a few weeks back. We met and had a few drinks and shared some food. Bill came, I paid (no hesitation - it was my intention). She didn't say thanks. Have to admit, that put me off a bit. Maybe she forgot, but to me, it's common courtesy. It was a $70 tab. I pay child support...I'm not rolling in it.
> 
> My first thought was "she's feels entitled". She contacted me a few times after, I didn't see her again.


Good call! I always say thank you. Tonight is the sixth date with the same guy I started this thread about :smthumbup: We are getting pizza and just hanging out at his place. So for all our dates, he paid except once I paid for one round of drinks at a bar. But I always offer. and after six dates now, I am gonna start suggesting we split the bill. That's my idea.

Oh and just to follow up, I said a little earlier that I was not gonna keep seeing him because he didn't want a relationship. But I kept seeing him because he continued to ask me out and he keeps initiating conversations over text ...which are now daily and are getting into more personal conversations. Im not pushing anything.. just letting things flow and it seems to be working. He definitely is showing interest, its no question. I think I believe that by not pushing anyone into a relationship, it can just happen naturally.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: First dates - who pays?*



Healer said:


> So the conclusion we've come to on this subject matter is...no conclusion at all.
> 
> I had a date with a really cool gal a few weeks back. We met and had a few drinks and shared some food. Bill came, I paid (no hesitation - it was my intention). She didn't say thanks. Have to admit, that put me off a bit. Maybe she forgot, but to me, it's common courtesy. It was a $70 tab. I pay child support...I'm not rolling in it.
> 
> My first thought was "she's feels entitled". She contacted me a few times after, I didn't see her again.


I haven't been in the situation very often, only have had about 4 or 5 first dates in my life, the times they never reached for wallet, and the many times in my imagination that they never paid, I felt it was a sign that they were interested in having me pursue them, in which case it's been easier to be a little more assertive. If they offer to pay, then I expect 1) they really are a fair and reasonable partner 2)I have been friendzoned.


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## Lon

*Re: Re: First dates - who pays?*



Jellybeans said:


> I always offer to split the bill on a first date. 9 out of 10 times (probably closer to 95%), the date tells me no, that they will pay for it. This is what happened on my last first date.


Using the logic in my last comment, maybe if you are interested in the guy, hold off on offering to pay and see if you can get him to invite you to dinner again and give him a little preview of what he is investing in 😊.

The saying really is true: no such thing as a free meal. But if all you want is a meal partner keep paying your share.


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## SamuraiJack

My GF paid the first date. She whipped out the CC and flashed me a smile and told I could get the next one...

Best.
Girlfriend.
Ever.


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## Healer

Lon said:


> I haven't been in the situation very often, only have had about 4 or 5 first dates in my life, the times they never reached for wallet, and the many times in my imagination that they never paid, I felt it was a sign that they were interested in having me pursue them, in which case it's been easier to be a little more assertive. If they offer to pay, then I expect 1) they really are a fair and reasonable partner 2)I have been friendzoned.


Interesting. Maybe I should give that gal a call back. I'm sure it's too late now.


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## dajam

For me... I know a mother of two, and I am going to ask her out this upcoming week, Since I am asking and picking the venue, I will pay. Part of being a man in my eyes, if she offers so assist awesome if not, so be it.

Not going to pay much attention to the money part. That really doesn't matter, it is what is in the heart that does.

Live in the moment on the date, and discussing money is not one of my favorite topics, although it can lead to emotional tension for some


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## Jellybeans

Lon said:


> the times they never reached for wallet, and the many times in my imagination that they never paid, I felt it was a sign that they were interested in having me pursue them, in which case it's been easier to be a little more assertive.





Lon said:


> Using the logic in my last comment, maybe if you are interested in the guy, hold off on offering to pay and see if you can get him to invite you to dinner again and give him a little preview of what he is investing in &#55357;&#56842;.
> 
> The saying really is true: no such thing as a free meal. But if all you want is a meal partner keep paying your share.


Eh, I disagree. I wouldn't NOT offer to pay to show that I am more interested than not. That makes no sense to me. Plus, I just think it's bad form. With that said, it is very rare the first date I've been on where my date said he wanted to split the bill with me. 



Lon said:


> If they offer to pay, then I expect 1) they really are a fair and reasonable partner 2)I have been friendzoned.


Polar opposites.


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## EnjoliWoman

All of the dating sites suggest that they guy ought to pay because it demonstrates the woman's value. Maybe there is a difference in dating in 40s vs. 30s (60s/70s vs. 70s/80s born?) but I have found it to be absolutely true. I started off offering to pay and those always ended. When I offered to pay for movies because he got dinner, same thing. But when I only offer to leave the tip while he gets the bill, it does seem to increase my value - as if it says right from the beginning "I'm worth it".


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## Lon

*Re: Re: First dates - who pays?*



EnjoliWoman said:


> All of the dating sites suggest that they guy ought to pay because it demonstrates the woman's value. Maybe there is a difference in dating in 40s vs. 30s (60s/70s vs. 70s/80s born?) but I have found it to be absolutely true. I started off offering to pay and those always ended. When I offered to pay for movies because he got dinner, same thing. But when I only offer to leave the tip while he gets the bill, it does seem to increase my value - as if it says right from the beginning "I'm worth it".


Yep, it seems whether or not we like to admit it, courting is very much a game...


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## Healer

EnjoliWoman said:


> All of the dating sites suggest that they guy ought to pay because it demonstrates the woman's value. Maybe there is a difference in dating in 40s vs. 30s (60s/70s vs. 70s/80s born?) but I have found it to be absolutely true. I started off offering to pay and those always ended. When I offered to pay for movies because he got dinner, same thing. But when I only offer to leave the tip while he gets the bill, it does seem to increase my value - as if it says right from the beginning "I'm worth it".


I certainly don't see it that way. I see it as entitled and I don't like that.

I had a first date last night. When the bill came, we both pulled our wallets. I said "I got it". She said "are you sure??". I said "certainly". She was very appreciative and thanked me again via text this morning for the meal/drinks. That to me is classy, not a projection of low self-worth.


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## Wolf1974

EnjoliWoman said:


> All of the dating sites suggest that they guy ought to pay because it demonstrates the woman's value. Maybe there is a difference in dating in 40s vs. 30s (60s/70s vs. 70s/80s born?) but I have found it to be absolutely true. I started off offering to pay and those always ended. When I offered to pay for movies because he got dinner, same thing. But when I only offer to leave the tip while he gets the bill, it does seem to increase my value - as if it says right from the beginning "I'm worth it".


I have no issue paying. I just don't put much into first dates because you don't really even know if you like the person yet. Couple of beers and conversation is where it's at to get to know someone. If you get the rare, "what no dinner" then you already know what you need to know and honestly that has only ever happend to me once


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## EnjoliWoman

Healer, I've had that happen and I do express appreciation. I know dating isn't cheap. I'm happy with meeting for just a drink or coffee, a walk in the park, etc. When I meet at a restaurant and I get there first I order a drink and pay for it because I don't want him to arrive with me expecting him to pay my tab before we are seated. 

Such a tricky situation. I'm the farthest from a gold digger. I like my job and plan to keep at it until I retire in 20 years. I'm not a big spender/high maintenance. But that was my personal experience which I found interesting. I started off dating thinking I needed to be a 'modern woman' and pay my way but it seems to be a turn off. 

Then again, I would never order the most expensive thing and am otherwise considerate of my date, too. And I take into consideration his lifestyle and ability to pay.

This was so much easier when I was 20.


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## unsure78

EnjoliWoman said:


> Healer, I've had that happen and I do express appreciation. I know dating isn't cheap. I'm happy with meeting for just a drink or coffee, a walk in the park, etc. When I meet at a restaurant and I get there first I order a drink and pay for it because I don't want him to arrive with me expecting him to pay my tab before we are seated.
> 
> Such a tricky situation. I'm the farthest from a gold digger. I like my job and plan to keep at it until I retire in 20 years. I'm not a big spender/high maintenance. But that was my personal experience which I found interesting. I started off dating thinking I needed to be a 'modern woman' and pay my way but it seems to be a turn off.
> 
> Then again, I would never order the most expensive thing and am otherwise considerate of my date, too. And I take into consideration his lifestyle and ability to pay.
> 
> This was so much easier when I was 20.


Got to say I agree with Enjoli on this... when i first started dating post D, I tried to be all modern woman really insisting and expecting on splitting... I have actually had guys tell me to let them be the man and pay, that its insulting for them not to pay...after a few dates, I realized the game.

I tend to let the guy pick the first date venue, so they decide how much they will be spending... I also have no problem with just meeting for coffee or drinks. I do always still offer to split, however it is more of me being polite and I always thank them.
I have never had a man take me up on an offer to split on a first date, only once did I buy my own cup of coffee, and I have had a significant number of first dates in the last few yrs and a high percentage ask me on second dates.


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## Jellybeans

Wolf1974 said:


> Couple of beers and conversation is where it's at to get to know someone. If you get the rare, "what no dinner" then you already know what you need to know and honestly that has only ever happend to me once


Just goes to show everyone is different. I personally have no qualms whatsoever about conversing with someone and getting to know them over a bite to eat/breaking bread together. Plus, I love food. Some people don't drink alcohol or want to on the first outing anyway.


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## Jellybeans

unsure78 said:


> do always still offer to split
> 
> I have never had a man take me up on an offer to split on a first date, only once did I buy my own cup of coffee, and I have had a significant number of first dates in the last few yrs and a high percentage ask me on second dates.


This is similar to my dating experiences.


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## Healer

EnjoliWoman said:


> Healer, I've had that happen and I do express appreciation. I know dating isn't cheap. I'm happy with meeting for just a drink or coffee, a walk in the park, etc. When I meet at a restaurant and I get there first I order a drink and pay for it because I don't want him to arrive with me expecting him to pay my tab before we are seated.
> 
> Such a tricky situation. I'm the farthest from a gold digger. I like my job and plan to keep at it until I retire in 20 years. I'm not a big spender/high maintenance. But that was my personal experience which I found interesting. I started off dating thinking I needed to be a 'modern woman' and pay my way but it seems to be a turn off.
> 
> Then again, I would never order the most expensive thing and am otherwise considerate of my date, too. And I take into consideration his lifestyle and ability to pay.
> 
> This was so much easier when I was 20.


It is a tricky situation! Especially in this day and age. And yes, so expensive.


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## Wolf1974

Jellybeans said:


> Just goes to show everyone is different. I personally have no qualms whatsoever about conversing with someone and getting to know them over a bite to eat/breaking bread together. Plus, I love food. Some people don't drink alcohol or want to on the first outing anyway.



Coffee is always an acceptable alternative For a quick first date during the day though. Did that a couple of times.


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## Dread Pirate Roberts

My sample size recently is admittedly small, being married for so long. But I've always paid on the first date. My current girlfriend wanted to pick up the tip after our first date, and I had no problem with that. It wasn't an actual first date - we'd met at my buddy's girlfriend's house a couple of times - they set us up - but it was our first time on our own, as it were.

DPR


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## whitehawk

Nope , she pays now ,equality and all that you know. Def ' :smthumbup:


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## Healer

I have a first date Friday for lunch and I still don't know the answer to the question.

I always pay, but it gets expensive. I feel weird about going dutch. But I feel broke when I always pay. :scratchhead:


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## COguy

Sorry I'm late to the party. After my divorce I stopped paying for dates unless it was a special occasion. When you're seeing a few girls this adds up quickly, and it's not the image I want to convey, that I am the wallet of the relationship. Some guys are comfortable with offering to pay the first and then they pay the second bla blah blah, but that just assumes you're going to see her again.

Paying for girls to me sets up this expectation that their time and presence is more valuable than mine and that she is going to benefit immediately from the interaction just by her presence.

In saying this, know that most females get really angry and mad when you bring this up. Mostly because they have been conditioned to accept that they have the goods, and that they need to be rewarded for it. Interesting to watch the equal rights feminists still ask for "chivalry" when it comes to who pays for dinner. It's ok though, by sticking to your guns you show that your principled and not going to be swayed by emotional appeals because you believe in what you say. If a woman has a problem with this, she is making the statement that she is with you for what you are going to provide for her, and you don't want that anyway.

Also, don't be cheap. There's a difference between not paying for women and being a tight a$$. Tip generously, give generously.


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## firebelly1

As a woman, I wouldn't mind at all if my date said "Shall we split it?" I'd be kind of relieved actually. I hate the check moment. But, I do appreciate it when he grabs the check. I always ask if he'd like to split it. 99% of the time he says "no."


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## COguy

firebelly1 said:


> As a woman, I wouldn't mind at all if my date said "Shall we split it?" I'd be kind of relieved actually. I hate the check moment. But, I do appreciate it when he grabs the check. I always ask if he'd like to split it. 99% of the time he says "no."


Any rational sane person would appreciate it if someone else paid for them. I don't doubt your sincerity but the fake check grab or fake ask for a split is a pretty common tactic, it's a form of saying thank you. I don't think anyone actually does it expecting to have to pay though. You said yourself 99% of the time if you do it it gets paid for, so it's really not that big of a risk.


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## Jellybeans

COguy said:


> In saying this, know that most females get really angry and mad when you bring this up. Mostly because they have been conditioned to accept that they have the goods, and that they need to be rewarded for it.


Really? Like a dog or something? 



COguy said:


> Interesting to watch the equal rights feminists still ask for "chivalry" when it comes to who pays for dinner.


Oh, my.



COguy said:


> I don't doubt your sincerity but *the fake check grab or fake ask for a split* is a pretty common tactic, it's a form of saying thank you. I don't think anyone actually does it expecting to have to pay though.


Man. I could not disagree more. Please do not group all people together based on your experiences.


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## COguy

Jellybeans said:


> Really? Like a dog or something?


I love puppies and women.



> Oh, my.


That's how I feel.


> Man. I could not disagree more. Please do not group all people together based on your experiences.


The woman that bucks from this trend is a true rarity in my experience, I've only met one. I would never say that all women do this, but certainly enough from my experience to expect the behavior. I LOVE being proved wrong on this, so feel free to make an a$$ out of me.

Also understand that I don't hold any resentment towards it. If guys could get away with this we would do it too. You'd have to be a fool to give up free stuff.

But you are saying you could not disagree with me more, so you are saying that you support that men and women pay for their own share on dates? If the guy asks you to dinner or drinks you insist on paying for yourself even if he is adamant?


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## Lon

If my GF makes a grab for the tab, whether it's a fake grab or not is irrelavent to me, if I want to buy then I pay, and if I recognize that she readily wants to treat me or if I've been paying more than my share long enough, I thank her and let her pick it up. I think terms of paying for dates its about 55/45 me paying, just the way I like to have it.

But this is within a steady relationship. When it comes to first dates, that's a game I have no idea the rules, line Aussie football but less men shoving each other from behind (or maybe that happens too, IDK.)


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## Jellybeans

COguy said:


> But you are saying you could not disagree with me more, so you are saying that you support that men and women pay for their own share on dates? If the guy asks you to dinner or drinks you insist on paying for yourself even if he is adamant?


No. I was disagreeing with the fact that you said it's a 



COguy said:


> fake check grab or fake ask for a split


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## COguy

Jellybeans said:


> No. I was disagreeing with the fact that you said it's a


I still love you even when you contradict yourself


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## Healer

COguy said:


> I still love you even when you contradict yourself


Wow, that was condescending. And inaccurate.


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## Wolf1974

COguy said:


> I love puppies and women.
> 
> 
> That's how I feel.
> 
> *The woman that bucks from this trend is a true rarity in my experience, I've only met one. *I would never say that all women do this, but certainly enough from my experience to expect the behavior. I LOVE being proved wrong on this, so feel free to make an a$$ out of me.
> 
> Also understand that I don't hold any resentment towards it. If guys could get away with this we would do it too. You'd have to be a fool to give up free stuff.
> 
> But you are saying you could not disagree with me more, so you are saying that you support that men and women pay for their own share on dates? If the guy asks you to dinner or drinks you insist on paying for yourself even if he is adamant?


I'm surprised this is your experience especially since we are I the same state and must have at least a similar dating pool. I have only ever caught one woman using me, and other men, for free meals. Then I implimented the no first date dinners just drinks to get to know one another policy. From that I only met one woman who put up a stink and declined to go out because I wouldn't buy her dinner.

So the vast majority I have gone out with were ok with a very cheap first and second date.


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## COguy

Wolf1974 said:


> I'm surprised this is your experience especially since we are I the same state and must have at least a similar dating pool. I have only ever caught one woman using me, and other men, for free meals. Then I implimented the no first date dinners just drinks to get to know one another policy. From that I only met one woman who put up a stink and declined to go out because I wouldn't buy her dinner.
> 
> So the vast majority I have gone out with were ok with a very cheap first and second date.


We're not in the same state, and I am not a fan of doing dinner on a first date either (dinner for me would be like 3rd or 4th date material). I am lumping my experience all together as any outing involving something to be paid for, before there is a commitment to exclusivity.

To clarify, I am not saying that most women expect you to buy them dinner. I am saying that if you are out with a woman, and there is something to be bought and paid for during the date, the go to expectation is that you will pay for it. They may make a show of appreciation by offering to chip in, but it is largely for show.

My experience is that when this comes up, women will complain, try to make me sound cheap, or try to change my mind.

Your experience with drinks first, are you buying? What's their reaction? How does 3rd date and beyond look?


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## Wolf1974

COguy said:


> We're not in the same state, and I am not a fan of doing dinner on a first date either (dinner for me would be like 3rd or 4th date material). I am lumping my experience all together as any outing involving something to be paid for, before there is a commitment to exclusivity.
> 
> To clarify, I am not saying that most women expect you to buy them dinner. I am saying that if you are out with a woman, and there is something to be bought and paid for during the date, the go to expectation is that you will pay for it. They may make a show of appreciation by offering to chip in, but it is largely for show.
> 
> My experience is that when this comes up, women will complain, try to make me sound cheap, or try to change my mind.
> 
> Your experience with drinks first, are you buying? What's their reaction? How does 3rd date and beyond look?


Ohh sorry I thought you maybe were in Colorado

So yes I have mostly always bought drinks on first dates. It's less than 20$ even with craft beers and if dating multiple women I can afford that way more than 100$ dinner.

If I really like the girl I always try and plan something physical. I love to hike and always try and do that for a second date for two reasons. 

First every profile here in Colorado says "love to hike". Then you get them out there and they can't keep up. So this is a good indicator if this is something we actually both enjoy doing or did she just say that for her profile.

Second reason is hikes are generall from 1.5-3 hours long. Other than look at scenery thier is nothing to do but talk. If you can't have interesting and stimulating conversations for a couple hours then a relationship would never work. I have found this to be the best get to know someone.

If I am still interested then third date maybe like dinner and movie. I always offer to pay for one and let her get the other. If we are going out on a third date I am defintely intersted at this point and likely see potential for a realtionship. 

Even now with my live in GF we share date expenses. I don't want her to pay 1/2. I rather hey I will get the movie this time and you get dinner then next time switch. Works for us.


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## Rowan

COguy said:


> My experience is that when this comes up, women will complain, try to make me sound cheap, or try to change my mind.


It sounds like you need to find better women to date.....


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## COguy

Wolf1974 said:


> Ohh sorry I thought you maybe were in Colorado
> 
> So yes I have mostly always bought drinks on first dates. It's less than 20$ even with craft beers and if dating multiple women I can afford that way more than 100$ dinner.
> 
> If I really like the girl I always try and plan something physical. I love to hike and always try and do that for a second date for two reasons.
> 
> First every profile here in Colorado says "love to hike". Then you get them out there and they can't keep up. So this is a good indicator if this is something we actually both enjoy doing or did she just say that for her profile.
> 
> Second reason is hikes are generall from 1.5-3 hours long. Other than look at scenery thier is nothing to do but talk. If you can't have interesting and stimulating conversations for a couple hours then a relationship would never work. I have found this to be the best get to know someone.
> 
> If I am still interested then third date maybe like dinner and movie. I always offer to pay for one and let her get the other. If we are going out on a third date I am defintely intersted at this point and likely see potential for a realtionship.
> 
> Even now with my live in GF we share date expenses. I don't want her to pay 1/2. I rather hey I will get the movie this time and you get dinner then next time switch. Works for us.


We're not disagreeing on the approach. You're style though you're still paying for drinks on dates. I'm opposed to that. I don't feel like I should have to buy time with a woman. In my opinion, if a woman wants to go out for drinks with me, she shouldn't be doing it with the expectation that she's gaining financially from it.

It's not about the cost for me, it's about the paradigm. This is a mutually beneficial interaction, so there should be no assumption that I'm paying.


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## Healer

COguy said:


> We're not disagreeing on the approach. You're style though you're still paying for drinks on dates. I'm opposed to that. I don't feel like I should have to buy time with a woman. In my opinion, if a woman wants to go out for drinks with me, she shouldn't be doing it with the expectation that she's gaining financially from it.
> 
> It's not about the cost for me, it's about the paradigm. This is a mutually beneficial interaction, so there should be no assumption that I'm paying.


David DeAngelo?


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## firebelly1

One thing I struggle with as a woman is not insulting the guy's ego. I have found that most guys think of it as "manly" to pay and that not doing that makes them less of a man. So, when he reaches for the check, I do always ask "Would you like to split it?" out of politeness but when he says "Oh no," which most do, I don't push it because I don't want to insult his manhood. Am I perceiving that correctly? I may be using weird words but I'm realizing that's what makes the check question so uncomfortable for me. I know he'd like me to offer but he doesn't want me to insist. 

Now, when two guys are together, it seems completely different. When I would go out with my husband and his father, it would be this epic battle between them as to who was going to pay for dinner. Each would insist that he would pay. To me that's part of the male ego thing too.


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## Healer

I had a first date yesterday and I paid. She said "Nooo, are you sure??". I said "yup, you get the next one". She said "deal".

Cool with me.


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## Healer

firebelly1 said:


> One thing I struggle with as a woman is not insulting the guy's ego. I have found that most guys think of it as "manly" to pay and that not doing that makes them less of a man. So, when he reaches for the check, I do always ask "Would you like to split it?" out of politeness but when he says "Oh no," which most do, I don't push it because I don't want to insult his manhood. Am I perceiving that correctly? I may be using weird words but I'm realizing that's what makes the check question so uncomfortable for me. I know he'd like me to offer but he doesn't want me to insist.
> 
> Now, when two guys are together, it seems completely different. When I would go out with my husband and his father, it would be this epic battle between them as to who was going to pay for dinner. Each would insist that he would pay. To me that's part of the male ego thing too.


Definitely wouldn't insult my ego.


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## DTO

PAgirl said:


> Well I have this date tonight so any advice?  We both have good established careers. The only difference is that I am a single parent of two, and he has no children. So I assume that he has more money than me. But for a first date, I really don't want to give the impression that I "expect" him to pay. So should I offer to before the date starts? Or wait till the bill arrives? Like I said, he invited me out for a drink. So I just don't know what to do about the food bill.


I know this is late, but for anyone else who might be reading...

I don't drink, but it seems that a couple of drinks approximates the cost of a dinner at a moderately priced place. How about offering "I'm up for drinks, but I'm hungry so let's go to <your choice> first and I'll catch it"?


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## bravenewworld

COguy said:


> We're not disagreeing on the approach. You're style though you're still paying for drinks on dates. I'm opposed to that. I don't feel like I should have to buy time with a woman. In my opinion, if a woman wants to go out for drinks with me, she shouldn't be doing it with the expectation that she's gaining financially from it.
> 
> It's not about the cost for me, it's about the paradigm. This is a mutually beneficial interaction, so there should be no assumption that I'm paying.


Well if the guy is the one to ask me out, I would be really surprised if he didn't plan the date and pay. I definitely don't do the fake check grab. 

Now, if that ticks him off that's fine by me because I'd rather know sooner we aren't compatible. Same thing if he asks me to split the check. I wouldn't be rude about it, but wouldn't be interested in seeing him again either. 

To me the man paying, opening the car door, etc. is a part of seduction. I'm only really attracted to men who have an aura of power and chivalry. It's not about "gaining financially." I am a financially independent woman who always carries cash and I can afford to pay for my own meal. 

Now, if you won't pay because you're "protesting paradigms" that are unfairly targeting men of the world - that's like me saying the following on a date: "Sorry dude, you need to pay 25% more on all date activities than I do. Men in general make 1/4 more salary than women do in the same field, even if the competency level is similar. I realize this interaction is a bit awkward and goes against convention, but I'm protesting paradigms. So, when are we going out again?"

The first date "who pays" conundrum is actually a good compatibility test. If you and your date are on the same page - awesome! If you're not, plenty of other fish in the sea.


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