# My Dear Journal - By Onzo



## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Dear board members.

I am Onzo, male and married since 5 years, the relationship is in the 9th year. I have been a silent reader for some time now and appreciate a lot of the posts and information I have gained thanks to many of you.

My problem is as usual in this thread: lack of sex.

I come to the understanding that this is such a complex matter that actually I have lost faith in most of the advices I have dealt with or read about.

To my situation:

Sex is down. When it comes up, it is like once in 3 months, always me initiating. Also I sometimes not only want sex, I fantasize about my wife in hot lingerie or us doing dirty stuff. I often find myself watching porn, just because of the frustration.. It somehow sucks.
In the beginning as we got to know each other, sex was hot. She is not the very open tipe, but she once a while would wear hot stuff, just for sex.
I cant tell when all started going down, I just remember that somewhere in the third year, it was only me initiating sex and in I guess over 90% of the time beieng turned down. She is a great woman and we love each other and when she turns me down, it is usually rather polite. But rejection somehow pains on the long run..

We have talked several times about the issue and I wish we would have as much sex as we talk about it. It is always me talking and I now really feel stupid. She usually listens and then begs for understanding for her rather lower drive than mine. Sometimes we will have sex a few days after the talk, but in the recent years also that stopped. I have to admit that inspite of my love for her, I really have gotten into recenting her badly.
I have tried many advises around here. I work out, I help at home, I contribute to the bills, take care of our two litte´le kids..

Now my question is: have you guys ever tried sth that instantly turned your women on out of the blue?

I would at this moment try anything, just in order to have the feeling she wants sex. Now!

This is going to be my journal where I will post the following weeks of my sexual life. I am planing to move out and later (next year) probably divorce my wife in spite of our young kids. The moving out should be in 2 months time. It is a pitty it is going to be christmas soon, but when I think of having just another christmas where my wife will just laugh when I wish she came to bed in red christams lingerie, and then she would when the day finally came come to bed in her wide pajamas telling me I couldnt have everything I wanted, I really feel I am not taken serious and even feel insulted.

So. Feel free to comment on my journey and add your advises when you want.

Thank you.

*Day 1:*

I live in europe, it is 2 am right now. I am going to bed, wife and kids are sleeping. Last time we has sex is 7 weeks ago.

My plan for tomorrow or better say today when the sun rises is to talk to a friend about my problem. He is in a marriage too and I hope he might have some advise for me where to start.

It is actually quiet stupid from me to set such a close time frame in shich I expect change or I will leave, but I consider myself as so desperate, that it actually does not matter anymore.. Better start afresh if I cannot be satisfied here.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Hi Onzo, nice to meet you.

You say you and your wife discuss sex a lot. Is she aware of how close you are to ending the marriage over this? You say 2 months, which is pretty quick. Is she aware how close she is standing to the edge?


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Hello Miss S.

Thank you



MissScarlett said:


> Hi Onzo, nice to meet you.
> 
> You say you and your wife discuss sex a lot. Is she aware of how close you are to ending the marriage over this? You say 2 months, which is pretty quick. Is she aware how close she is standing to the edge?


No. She is not.

I once years ago and then months ago told her I would end the relationship due to the sex issue. The thing is that the first two times I wanted to leave, sex came up for lets say 3 time a week for 2 weeks. Then it subsided to once, then it was back to "normal", meaning to actually no sex.

The 2nd time I wanted to leave after this, were rather taken with indifference from her side. it was like, well you are so mean to leave me alone with the kids and so on, but go if you dont want me anymore. She complained about lack of intimacy in our marriage, which I admitted because I had stopped beieng active in touching and romance. But I also found it ridiculous because the reason I stopped was that she never seemd to react to me at all. Sometimes she would, but rather randomly.

So for me, I have lost faith that actually talking about anything will change anything. So when changes arent coming, I will open her in into my plans 2-3 weeks before I move.


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## tracyishere (Dec 2, 2012)

What a awful start for a journal. I do hope it has a happy ending.


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## Kari (Feb 17, 2012)

The only thing I can think of is to go with her regularly to a marriage counselor that specializes in sexual issues. Also buy her the book 'His Needs Her Needs'. 

I think you should talk with a lawyer right away to prepare your finances for a possible divorce. Try a separation first, move out before asking for a divorce to see if she asks for a reconciliation with a regular sex life. Don't move back in until at least six months of a good sex life if you start dating her again. If she isn't serious about changing permanently, she probably won't pretend for six whole months.


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## accept1 (Sep 23, 2013)

'''''It is always me talking and I now really feel stupid. She usually listens and then begs for understanding for her rather lower drive than mine. '''''

So that is her excuse. I suppose you are sure there is no one else. You dont say how many kids or how old.

You are no different to other men but for some reason she has gone 'off' you. 

'''' She complained about lack of intimacy in our marriage,'''''

Do you think that was just an excuse as well. She seems to need you and uses the kids for that to hold on to you but wont give you what you want.

I am sorry to have to tell you that it is unlikely to get better unless you find out the real reason for her reluctance. You dont mention counselling which could help here and should be tried before your other drastic measures.


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Kari said:


> The only thing I can think of is to go with her regularly to a marriage counselor that specializes in sexual issues. Also buy her the book 'His Needs Her Needs'.


Well, I am done with that. We went regulary for two years now. Have you read the book "What Shamu Taught Me About Life, Love, and Marriage" - it opened my eyes to the fact that running to counseling was rather fueling her behavior of turning me down. Believe me, I have gotten advice and councelling I could write several books about. The fact is, the only thing that has been changing is my growth in recentment. She just seems untouched after we are back home and life goes on. Goodness, she even reminds me of the next appointment.



> I think you should talk with a lawyer right away to prepare your finances for a possible divorce. Try a separation first, move out before asking for a divorce to see if she asks for a reconciliation with a regular sex life. Don't move back in until at least six months of a good sex life if you start dating her again. If she isn't serious about changing permanently, she probably won't pretend for six whole months.


Exactly what is goin on now. Thanks.
I already moved out two years ago, then she was willing to do her best in getting back our sex life up, she did when I moved back in.. She did for 3 weeks.



accept1 said:


> '''''It is always me talking and I now really feel stupid. She usually listens and then begs for understanding for her rather lower drive than mine. '''''
> 
> So that is her excuse. I suppose you are sure there is no one else. You dont say how many kids or how old.
> 
> ...


She is 34, I am 36. two kids, 6 and 4 years old. Let me name my wife Hella.
After reading so many posts about this issue on TAM, I dont think that finding the real issue solves the problem. I cant remember any author mentioning that sex went up, after the reason was found. the only thing I remember is that new reasons came up.
I have been through that too.

*Morning - still day 1*

I just had a coffee with the friend I mentioned earlier. Let us call him Steve.
Steve is my age, has three kids and is in his marriage since I believe 7-8 years.

Actually, we arent best freinds or sort. It is just, that his marriage seems to work out well. I mean my wife and I go along really awesome together, apart from the sex issue.. But Steve, aeveryone in our circle admires his marriage because it somehow seem that sex is working.
I hate to have asked for advice from him, because he use to be a whimp back in former days. At the beginning of his relationship to let me call her Sandra, his wife, everyone awaited the end of his relationship very soon. Most of those with us those day are already separated, but not Steve and Sandra.

So what did he say to my story. Well, I am rather disappointed. He said that each relationship is different but each relationship follows certain patterns. You have to find out to which pattern yours belongs. And that once you find the chain of patterns that are getting you the results you are getting now, it is up to you to find the core pattern and start changing it from there.

Well rather very metaphoriacal. What do you guys and ladies think?

This somehow just sounds like me having to find the mistake on my end again, which I am done with I think.. I was rather a bit angry and even didnt care for him to explain what he ment. You know it sucks that my problem is huge and then someone gives me a solution that sounds so easy. It makes me feel stupid.

Anyway, we have planned to dinner together this week. Hella, me, Steve and Sandra. He offered to have an eye on me for the next week in order to see how "we function together". Well let him. I asked for help in sex and he is dealing with it as if I asked for help in my marriage.

The other reason I went to him, is that my cousin also seeked his advice to the same issue years ago. And since a long time I havent heard from my cousin complaining, so I was hoping the same..
My cousin moved to the US, so it is currently almost impossible to seek his advice now. Maybe I ll just ask Steve to tell me what he told my cousin.

So what else has happend today. I woke up before Hella, made breakfast for our 6 year old and later she took him to Kindergarten.
After my meeting with Steve I came to my office. I ll keep you tuned.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

start sleeping naked in the marital bed and make sure you are in that bed every night when she goes to bed. When she asks why tell her you want to get laid. do it every day. tell her to get naked or sleep elsewhere.


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> start sleeping naked in the marital bed and make sure you are in that bed every night when she goes to bed. When she asks why tell her you want to get laid. do it every day. tell her to get naked or sleep elsewhere.


I am half of the nights naked, the other I wear boxers . Sometimes we cuddle, but that is not a guarantee for sex these days.

And once she really asked me why I was naked in bed, I said I was hot to have sex. She smiled gave me a kiss and said she had had a rough day, needed to sleep and that we could see about tomorrow. As far as I remember she rather woke up like every other day and was eager to take our son to KG. 
That evening after she turned me down again, I asked her why she said we would have sex today and why she was now turning me down. She said she was just still tired and hadent forgotten me etc etc..

The next sex came 2 weeks later.

Anyone can give his opinion to this:


> So what did he say to my story. Well, I am rather disappointed. He said that each relationship is different but each relationship follows certain patterns. You have to find out to which pattern yours belongs. And that once you find the chain of patterns that are getting you the results you are getting now, it is up to you to find the core pattern and start changing it from there.
> 
> Well rather very metaphoriacal. What do you guys and ladies think?


It is somehow still bugging me.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

> Well let him. I asked for help in sex and he is dealing with it as if I asked for help in my marriage.


That to me says a lot. Sex with your wife and marriage with your wife are the same thing. You cannot say I don't want to work on my marriage I want to work on sex. They don't exist without each other.

I think what your 'friend' says is true. It may seem simple, but often truth is. You have followed a pattern that has gotten you here, you continue to follow the same pattern and it continues to end up in the same place.

If you want it to change, you have to find out what needs to be changed. It doesn't mean you are making a mistake, but it could be a part of it.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> Well, I am done with that. We went regulary for two years now. Have you read the book "What Shamu Taught Me About Life, Love, and Marriage" - it opened my eyes to the fact that running to counseling was rather fueling her behavior of turning me down. Believe me, I have gotten advice and councelling I could write several books about. The fact is, the only thing that has been changing is my growth in recentment. She just seems untouched after we are back home and life goes on. Goodness, she even reminds me of the next appointment.


Very true point. It is good you noticed this. Over the years I have noticed that puting a lot of energy in convincing your partner to give more sex or to give you more of sth else, actually fuels the current situation. No matter how nice you try to ask or convince someone to do sth, when repeated it just feels like you pressuring them.
That is why I dont advice couples to talk about the Not-Having-Sex-Matter anymore. It keeps the ideas that fuel recentment and abandonnement in their heads. One feels he/she is not getting sth, the other feels he/she is beieng pushed to the wall to agree to sth they (currently) arent interested in.



> So what did he say to my story. Well, I am rather disappointed. He said that each relationship is different but each relationship follows certain patterns. You have to find out to which pattern yours belongs. And that once you find the chain of patterns that are getting you the results you are getting now, it is up to you to find the core pattern and start changing it from there.
> 
> Well rather very metaphoriacal. What do you guys and ladies think?


This is truly metaforiacal. In my opinion it means you have to change sth in your life that significantly shoes that your core-personality has really changed.
Now, many might say, how is it my fault that she is LD? Why is it me to change? It aint your fault if she is LD when she was LD in the first months you met her. It is if she turned out to be months later.

Why is this so?
Everyone in a relationship takes over a certain role by time. Even if a relationship is about giving and taking, there is always a niche where each party has the most to offer than the other. Depending on how you are wired, you either land in the role of the one giving sex or the one getting sex for example.

The role of who is the giver and who the reciever of sex has its fundamentals in the first times one partner was not into sex and how the other partner reacted to it. Mostly, if the partner who did not get sex still always initiates and agrees to sex, it becomes a habbit which both arent aware of. It only comes up when the other partner has so often been turned down, that grief starts to come up. It is a matter of the point of view.

My ex-girlfreind for example always use to say that women give men sex and that men always want sex. Those days that seemed true for me because I had never heard it different. I even remember that I believed it was natural for her to turn me down when she wasnt into it. Then one day her friend said that she couldnt support her statement because her boyfreind was not so much into sex and it felt as if HE was the one giving sex.

So in order for you Onzo to break free out of the victim role of the reciever, you need to find ways that make you the giver or at least equal in this. It starts in small things you do for her, the things you give as a giver have the potential to make you the giver too in sex.
It may help you to not view sex as the act alone. Because if you do, you truly have no possibility to contribute because she controls the act itself. So split it up and find out which elements that have turned her on in the past are still available.

This is where I come to the point where men overdo approval or arent able to handle their wives behaviours.

So if compliments used to do her good, if touching used to do her good, if dinners used to do her good etc etc.. And you finally stopped doing this things because they werent working, then you misunderstood the concept. The concept is about YOU beieng in control of these little things. Meaning that you decide weather you will compliment her, touch her or take her out for dinner without considering her current sexual attitude.

You beieng consitent in giving and withdrawing by own will is significant to her. She wont say it or outwardly aknowledge it, because things that dont happen frequently are not significant for the big picture.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I feel somewhat pessimistic about being able to change another person. This couple has been to 2 years of counseling and has had numerous conversations about sex being important.

Being a woman, I know many women who don't care to ever have sex again. How this comes to happen I'm not sure. Certainly they were not this way when they were dating or the marriage wouldn't have happened. The two reasons j hear most often

1) Man doesn't know much about female anatomy or female orgasm. Perhaps earlier in the relationship she felt he could be taught or would catch on. If these things did not happen she may have reached a point of giving up. 

2) Resentments over the man not carrying his share of the household responsibilities. With young children at home some women see the mans life as an easy one full of adult interaction. This is enviable to some women. The man getting sex whenever he wants feels even more unfair. To a woman this is not something they do together but rather one more thing she must provide for her family.

In a perfect world a woman would continue to want sex. It would not be something she had to make herself do. 

In a perfect world a woman would be able to be assertive about her sexual needs and also her needs dealing with household responsibilities. Ideally a couple would be able to get through the childhood years as a team, not as two individuals who have started to turn on each other. However, current divorce rates prove that we don't live in an ideal world.

As a disclaimer - I am speaking in very general terms here. On this board.as a whole I see a sampling of men who ARE knowledgeable about sex and ARE doing their fair share or more around the house. I makes me quite sad to hear the heartache of men who love their wives and want nothing more to stay married and be a husband (not a roommate) and father. 

Why these women can go about the rest of their lives doing things they might not love (like changing diapers and feeding children and going to work and paying bills) and ignore their spouse - you know, that person who is supposed to be ge most important) is beyond me.


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

@ MissS.



> I feel somewhat pessimistic about being able to change another person. This couple has been to 2 years of counseling and has had numerous conversations about sex being important.


Me too, that is why I am leaving..



> In a perfect world a woman would continue to want sex. It would not be something she had to make herself do.


This is exactly what I told Steve today morning. He just answered that in his marriage sex is more of sth they want and rarely sth they have to do. He mentioned that some years ago he and his wifey planned a vacation full of sex and ended up only having sex twice in those two weeks because they had put themselves under pressure to perform, he said he was so happy that his wife had felt the same way and therefore both had only had spontaneous sex. What a lucky guy.

Anyway. Steve told me to make a plan of how to provoke Hella thrice a day for at least 3 days a week. This should be a way out of the so called paterns that get me no sex.. I just was doing some sports and somehow feel energetic and will give it a try.

This is the text he just sent me:

1. Smack her b*tt roughly
2. When going to bed, lie on her side (Hella and I have our own sides in bed)
3. Forget to do one of my duties. I usually clean the dishes on tuesdays and thursdays, so I have planned to take the trash out and go for an hor walk before doing the dishes.

I ll keep you tuned about the outcome tomorrow.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

> This is exactly what I told Steve today morning. He just answered that in his marriage sex is more of sth they want and rarely sth they have to do.


This is sth you only start to notice when you get your mind from she giving you sex amd when you are able to say yes or no to sex regardless of how often you are getting it.



> Anyway. Steve told me to make a plan of how to provoke Hella thrice a day for at least 3 days a week. This should be a way out of the so called paterns that get me no sex.. I just was doing some sports and somehow feel energetic and will give it a try.
> 
> This is the text he just sent me:
> 
> ...


Yes. Keep us tuned. Just dont overdo anything. Already that you are positive right now will get you a positive outcome. Dont get guitl tripped if she makes trouble.


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## aeasty (Jun 5, 2013)

I think you also need to at least give the impression of impartial to sex (a impression of its ok I suppose) to release the grip of sex is power over you, even turn her down a few times when she offers as hard as that sounds. To me it sounds similar to what I was in before we split. She still didn't increase but she knew she had nothing holding me then. She is using sex to try and control you it started as you got it when you did what she wanted until they get everything they want and then they stop and nothing you do is enough they are always "too tired, busy, not in the mood, had a rough day" and so on my ex did this until she wanted a second child (no second child) and I was already wise enough to see this and we split.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

_*Day 2*_

Good morning, i m back.

So let me tell you how me beieng a "bad boy" went yesterday.



> 1. Smack her b*tt roughly


When I did this, she froze for about 2 seconds and turned rather in rage towards me asking what the hell that was, that it pained her. By this time I was already out of the laundry room and had to resist to stop and listen. I had planed a place I was aiming to when I did this and stuck to it, this is sth Psy had refered to in the 9 reasons post.
What happened is that she didnt follow me but brought the topic up later while we prepared the table for dinner. Steve had told me to obviously ne nice but not to take her serious when guilt tripped, so I just carressed her cheek and said it was rather a reflex that my hand sometimes does.
She still said sth I didnt get because I was back in the kitchen and I used this to change the topic.



> 3. Forget to do one of my duties. I usually clean the dishes on tuesdays and thursdays, so I have planned to take the trash out and go for an hor walk before doing the dishes.


This was the hardest for me and I was expecting a fight when I came back after 45min.
Hella wanted to know where the hell I had gone because I hadnt told anyone where I was. I said I needed a short walk. She shrugged and pulled a face but didnt comment further.. To my surprise dishes were already done. I thanked her for that and she mentioned our son had helped, he was already in bed so I quietly went up, thanked him too then came back downstairs for a beer.
The rest of the evening was as usual, we watched news, she on her seat, me on mine.



> 2. When going to bed, lie on her side (Hella and I have our own sides in bed)


When I did this she orderd me to sleep on my side and when I didnt react she stood rather helpless there with her hand on her waist (just like in a comic book). I continued surfing on my phone and said I just was into knowing if it feels different on her side. She ment I was beieng childish, but after I didnt still move, she just took some of her stuff from her side and transferred it to my side then without a word she laid herself asleep.

So today morning, to my surprise, Hella asked me how I wanted my egg, soft or hard. I was almost going to say my d*ck is hard too but resisted because Steve told me not to jump too fast in beieng verbaly sexual.
Hella hasnt asked me in years how I want my Egg, it has always been either I eat what is there or nothing. Maybe it is just a coincidence.


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Day 3

My provocations :

1. So yesterday, I gave Hella a short call and said I wasn't coming for dinner. She wanted to know where I was going, I said I needed some fresh air and would drive out a bit. She didn't comment.
My plan was to gi to the movies but I didn't feel it was her business to know right now.

2. During the day I didn't reply her calls as fast as I could yesterday. This was tough because I feel it could be concerning the kids, but Steve told me I should resist because if it was urgent, she would text if I wasn't available.
She didn't react to this.

3. I left the lights on in the living room and in the stairway.
She called me on this tiday morning and I appologized but didn't give her speech further attention. She seemed a bit angry about my rather calm reaction : While I appologized I offered her some coffee then listened and then changed the topic.

Steve had mentioned handling tension from a position where u are in control means that u are always pushimg and pulling the other one. I understand the push was my valm ignorance and my pull wss offering the coffee.

Till now no signs if sexual interest, but its just day 3.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I'm interested in how this is all going.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Hi Onzo

Thumbs up how you are doing this. I adore your attitude that you are somehow pushing your own moral boarders just in order to see if it works. That is sth many men arent able to do, they are too much focussing in how to play the game without pricking their wives.

I won't be surprised if you have success and start to notice where you went wrong. 
I believe the MAP is really helpfull, but solong as your partner isnt shaken by the changes you have made, it is only good in keeping the relationship stable but sexless.

You have to compare it to having two kids, one is always a good example and always fullfills his work and expectations, while the other is a kid full of trouble.
Now, when both kids write an exam at school, you are actually worried about the troublesome more than the good-kid. So when the good kid suddenly scores good marks out of the blue, your happiness and pride for it is much higher than for the good-kid.. 
Sure as a parent you always try to treat both kids equal and fair.. But inside yourself, you have to admit the feeling of pride will differ more to the advantage of the troublesome kid.. 

*..AND this is the point that men doing MAP dont get. *Getting more "attractive" for your wife is not a logical process she will go through! It is far deeper and irrational.. And often when you have been together for a long time, your partner knows you in and out and therefore is in the comfort zone. So whatever you do never matters so long their part of the equation is not under threat (*and for the guyz saying their wives mind a ****, thats is because they always lose there strengh for beieng assertive and strong when she complains or gives them a bit of sex!!*).
So in order to make changes seen, you need to push the partner slightly out of the comfort zone! And that is only by interfering with it on rather manipulative ways. Sorry for the ones trying to be correct, but that doesn't work..

You beieng a perfect man the whole time (MAP, good body, nice job, good father etc..) but not beieng consistent in getting your partner out of the comfort zone once a while just ends in the partner not taking significant notice of your changes! Dont be the good kid too long! It is a matter of balance.

So, good job!


> My provocations :
> 
> 1. So yesterday, I gave Hella a short call and said I wasn't coming for dinner. She wanted to know where I was going, I said I needed some fresh air and would drive out a bit. She didn't comment.
> My plan was to gi to the movies but I didn't feel it was her business to know right now.
> ...


Dont expect her to react outwardly. Whether s.o. reacts to sth or not depends on so many factors (mood, education etc..). The only thing I can guarantee you is that the more consistent you are, the more she will be thinking of the stuff you are doing.. sooner or later this forces a reaction.

Just know that any reaction to your changes *is a positive reaction*, so dont take them back or withdraw from your position for the sake of peace. So whether you suddenly are surprised by her giving you a treat or sex or whether you are called on it, deal with it calmly and keep your track!! 

Dont treat her complains as a big deal and also don't behave like a kid at christmas when you get sex!! If you get this right, you take away the fuel that fuels her to be in power of sex and your emotions.

I just want to warn you that your wife might not be direct in initiating sex or trying to get approval from you. So watch out for:

Her dressing more revealing

Her walking in a towel in front of you for no reason, e.g. pretending to be searching for sth

Her using word that could be misunderstood to be sexual, e.g. "it is so wet outside", "you want your egg hard or soft" (she did that already, did she?) etc..

At the same time watch out for her calling you on different mistakes you make or things that dont make sence etc.. This is rather her beieng passive aggressive because she has no clue how to deal with your changes. Especially when she has been feeling moments of horniness because of you and she rather found it difficult to comminicate that she wanted intimacy or sex, THEN she will be passive aggresive.

Solution: Dont take all she says for gold!

Good luck


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## jay1365 (May 22, 2013)

Lol all these mind games. You know what worked for me? I sent my wife a text one morning after our 1000001th sex fight and told her just tell me how much square footage of house you need, make and model of new car, and number of shoes she needs to f&?$ me like she did before we were married and I would decide if I I felt like providing it or leaving. Have not had a problem since, but you have to be ready to back up any threats you make.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

jay1365 said:


> Lol all these mind games. You know what worked for me? I sent my wife a text one morning after our 1000001th sex fight and told her just tell me how much square footage of house you need, make and model of new car, and number of shoes she needs to f&?$ me like she did before we were married and I would decide if I I felt like providing it or leaving. Have not had a problem since, but you have to be ready to back up any threats you make.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was hell of a move out her comfort zone. Good job. At least there are a few men here with gutts LOL


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Day 4 Friday 27th Sept.

So I am back.

On Friday I took off from any provocation in order not to destroy the tension. Steve had advised me to do this. In fact he told me to be more active and relaxed when it comes to be nice. So on Friday evening afteer the Kids were in bed we downloaded a movie and watched it. I cuddled her and she once a while cuddled back but it was more me doing the cuddling. Yesterday morning Steve said it was fine like that, it is about me doing what I want. Do as long as she wasnt rejecting me he said that the connection will be back after I push her out her out of the comfort zone, but that this was sth I had to do in steps.

Always push two steps, and pull one step. As MissScarlett said, I am wondering where this will go. I aint yet seeing any results. Right now it is still me doing this and that.


---


Day 5 Sarturday 28th Sept.

Apart from me and the Kids having a summer bike tour, nothing really special happened.
Steve and his wife came for dinner, we had a rather good time. I was a bit tense at the beginning because I thought Sandra, Steves wife, was aware of our sexual problem. to my surprise Steve told me that he never tells Sandra how he deals with the sex matters in their marriage. He said he could not guarantee himself that she could handle it to their advantage if she knew that sometimes he manipulated small things just to spice things up. 

I was a bit surprised because Steve and Sandra share many secrets. He just said that when I want to keep sex interesting and spiced up, the best way for your partner to keep spicing things up on their side, is when they believe it is their own idea and not because you wished for more spice.

I said that it was impossible for the partner with LD to ever get the idea to spice things up. Steve just said, that I just have to say what I find exiting without asking for it. The key is not to give to much approval to everything your spouce does that is sexy. With your patients in pulling and pushing them in and out of comfort zones they push their own borders by themselves till they start working into your direction.

I have started a small note book in which I am writing small remarks Steve makes:

yesterday I wrote: 

_
No one keeps still when the comfort zone seems unstable. It forces action, regardless of the action beieng positive or negative, that is always a chance for setting up new cards. The key is never to guilt trip anyone about their ignorance of your needs in the past once you have successfully pushed them out of their comfort zone, because that just gives them power over you. The reason they are out of the comfort zone is because they unconciously percieve you with a new strength. Dont destroy this because of hurt feelings if you really are seeking change! You have to forgive and forget otherwise you cant get out of the spiral._

I asked Steve what feeling he had about Hella and me, he said we were a good team. This actually should be a compliment, but Steve said that it is only good when both partners really are comfortable with their roles, but when there is an imbalance somewhere, teaming up too well just fuels the imbalance.

Right now I am rather clueless how to provoke Hella today. I ll just relax and enjoy the sunday, in case one of you has an idea. Let me know.

Greetz

O


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

@ Psy



> Dont expect her to react outwardly. Whether s.o. reacts to sth or not depends on so many factors (mood, education etc..). The only thing I can guarantee you is that the more consistent you are, the more she will be thinking of the stuff you are doing.. sooner or later this forces a reaction.
> 
> Just know that any reaction to your changes is a positive reaction, so dont take them back or withdraw from your position for the sake of peace. So whether you suddenly are surprised by her giving you a treat or sex or whether you are called on it, deal with it calmly and keep your track!!


Thanks for this, I will be working on keeping this mindset.


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

I've been silently browsing this forum for a few weeks now and never felt the need/want to comment on any of the posts made even though I'm going through what most on this forum are going through. That was until I saw this thread. This is really something different. This thread even got me to register just so that I could tell you (Onzo) that I'm rooting for you.:smthumbup: 
Best of luck man... I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread and then see what I can incorporate into my life!


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

wannabe said:


> I've been silently browsing this forum for a few weeks now and never felt the need/want to comment on any of the posts made even though I'm going through what most on this forum are going through. That was until I saw this thread. This is really something different. This thread even got me to register just so that I could tell you (Onzo) that I'm rooting for you.:smthumbup:
> Best of luck man... I'll be keeping a close eye on this thread and then see what I can incorporate into my life!


Thanks a lot wannabe. Your encouragement has made me have to update :smthumbup:

I am doing so great since days like I havent in the past years! Sex hasent yet turned up but I ve been more confident of myself. I also am noticing what went wrong during my MAP and why it hasent been working out though I did it for almost 2 years.

So lets Update (I ll only post significant stuff that has happened):

*Monday 30th Sept. 2013*

It was Hellas turn to bring our son to Kindergarten. So I ate my Corn-Flakes and called Steve if he had a few minutes to discuss my following actions for the Week.

This is what he said.

1. Pushing Hella out of the comfort zone by provocations was supposed to remain first priority, because that was the only thing that I could influence in order for her to notice changes.

2. I was supposed to focus on one of my hobbies and put it on such high priority that everything that Hella wanted or anything that I wanted had to wait. The only time I was allowe to break my determination to my hobby was supposed to be when the kids needed me (because I believe they need my, not because Hella believes that)

3. I was supposed to focus on manly duties and be very relactant to doing any house work unless there was no manly work around ( I showes Steve Psy Masos post dealing with this matter and he said I could proceed as written in his thread.)

4. I was supposed to choose 3 nice things I would do for Hella (as long as she was respectful to me) on 3 days of the week as a sort of balance to my provocations. The important thing about my so called gift or nice things was suppoed to be that I am giving them because I want to and feel like and not because I felt obligued to. So Steve said I should always have a reason in case I am giving material gifts (he explained why, but I forgot, I ll post it incase I remember).

5. The second highest priority was that I should give Hella tasks to do which I can later verbaly and physically (by a tap on the shoulder, kiss etc..) thank her for. 

6. I was supposed to focus on having a good mood in order for everything to work as near to plan as possible. He warned me that guilt feeling and involvement in arguement were the things that make the MAP useless no matter how good you perform it. That was due to the low value you convey to people around you once you start to buy each word they say and feel obligued to act on it.

So this how monday went.

I bought Hella some of her favorite flowers when I came home. I said I had a wonderful day at work and didnt wait for her to ask questions (because she usually doesnt anymore).
The funny thing she at first just said thanks and didnt really give them the attention I expected, but I was supposed to not take her serious as Steve said and first always focus on positic stuff and feeling good. So I went running a bit while listening to my newest tunes.
Our neighbour brought our son home and met me at the door. I never usually talk to her because she is more Hellas friend, but Steve had mentioned that I needed to train some small talk with the ladies. So I showes some interest, to my surprise we had a like 10 minutes chat. I have to admit since I started the MAP I am more of a trained guy, so my body isnt godly but onits best shape since my whole life. I believe Our neighbour gave me some evil-thought glances while we chatted.

Back in the house I focused on the assignment give Hella a small task to do for you. She was upstairs so I asked her to fill the tab with water for me. Though she sounded busy with the laundry, she gave I complain I didnt hear, but I was sure it was one.. But went on with the assignment.
Well so when I went to take my bath I gave her a kiss and thank you and tried not to over do it because Psy Maso mentioned that a partners reflexes to any sexual moves are still up though they actually might be wanting you. So I am still waitng for Hella s sensitivity to decrease (I have to admit it has decreased since in the past days.. She doesnt jump out of my arms for the first best distrustion she can use as an excuse anymore.. This feel good :lol.

Thanks a lot Psy Maso, I never thought of the reflex stuff.

So till now I had done 1 provocation and to nice things. So remaing 2 provocations. I had run out of ideas, but then I decided to not clean up the bathroom, but then I was afraid the kids might slip on the the wet ground sow I cleaned up but didnt open the window.
Hella didnt react to this, but Steve had mentioned that some stuff needs to be repeated in order to cause as noticable reaction.

My last provocation was reading news on my Ipad and always reacting to her after 5 seconds when she talked to me. This freaked her out!
It was a bit horrible feeling because I felt like a real d*ck.
So I remained calm but didnt argue, which weemed to freak her out even more.
The more she wanted to put me down on the carpet the more I played relaxed (which I wasnt). So, finally when she paused to take a breath, I apologized and said I wasnt aware of her talking to me (what a lie). She complained a bit more but Steve had begged me to always play inocent and that me trying to justify anything wont help. So I sat there like a small boy listening at first, but the more I sat there, the more I felt like a father listening to her teenie daughter and not taking her serious.

IT FELT GOOD! SORRY, but it really felt good. It is so damn wrong that I enjoyed feeling superiour, but I hadent felt like that for years. Now I get what is ment by equal right in all matters in a relationship dont work. I am convinced now that everyone has to have his corner of dominance. And as a man it has to be not buying all of your wives words.

So, actually I later stood up to get a beer and when I came back she asked me if I had nothing to say to that. I stuck to my short story of innocence, drank my beer and then went to bed.

I didnt fullfil the 3rd nice thing because I forgot about it and somehow Hella didnt seem to be in a mood to recieve (Steve told me later this week that that wasnt a reason to not do someone good. Doing good was about pushing own borders of creativity so far that almost any situation could turn out with sth good for the other one.. I ll try better next time)

*Tuesday 1st Oct. 2013*

I was up early because it was my turn to take our son to Kindergarten.
My only task today was to chat some few words with the lady at the counter at our Lidl-Shopping-Store. I decided to be confident and talk 1 or 2 sentences with her. It felt natural because she has been there like for years. I was amazed she new exactly which milk and vegiables I prefer because she gave the coment that I always bought the same stuff every tuesday.

Well that is a type of peac*cking, isnt it :-D ?

*Thursday, 3rd Oct. 2013*

I decided to repeat some provocations from last week, because of what Steve had mentioned about repetition.

So by coincidence, Hella had a bit of headache, so I offered a neck massage (nice thing)BUT said that I could only give it for 5 minutes because I was of for running before it became dark (my hobby!). This was important because Steve mentioned that the only way to turn off the reflexes against my physical approaches was to turn down the expectations that anything more was going to happen.
He remeinded me of our time at high school where we used to invite the girls home to look at pictures or drink a beer but we always checked up for their bus back home first, so they believed it wasnt going to be late and in the end they usually were more relaxed and therefore even were relactant in going home which often usually had lead to sex with them.

*He said it was the same mechanism.*

And he is right. Ever wanted to turn down someone who needed help from you, but he turned you down before you did because he had found another way to fix the problem or some else? 
Though you actually didnt want to help, you felt weird and bad that they didnt need you!
Sometime you even thought of now really helping them.

As expected, Hella tried to win 5 min more of my neck massage. In the past, she has always jumped out of my hands after 5 minutes and decided to do something else. Today, she remained sitted between my legs (she sitting on the carpet, me in the sofa). She even carressed my lowr leg slightly 2 or 3 times.

It felt like jackpot. As Psy said, the changes are in the smallest things. I just have to asume they are for me!

So, this night I repeated the provocation of sleeping on her side. As she wanted me to hand her over her stuff to the other side, I decided to be c*cky and threw only one piece at a time. Then she somehow freaked out a little, but I laughed and hit her with my pillow. I had hoped for a pillow fight (which can lead to sex), but I think it is still too early for that..

So, today I hadent succeeded to complete 3 provocations, but I succeeded had in 3 nice things. The 2 othe were: I made dinner for all of us. I did the laundry though it wasnt my turn.
I believe that it isnt a must to always complete all 3, but it is important to build the cofidence to be able to provoke ANY TIME.

Stay tuned!

PS: I forgot to mention what acually happened to the flowers. Hella has been taking good care of them and has thanked me like 4 time for them this week. In the past I would have guilt tripped her right away on day one if she didnt appreciate, but to my surprise the gratification came 2 days later and still holds on.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Keep it up


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## Onzo (Sep 23, 2013)

Psy.D. C. Maso said:


> Keep it up


Thank you!


So, let me update.


So steve is on his late summer vacation, so I am currently left alone to deal with the sexual matters.

As usual, my focus is pushing her out of the comfort zone and at the same time beieng of a bit vlauable use at home, for both her and the kids. It is a difficult balance.

Because nothing really special happened I ll just summarize what has been going on in the past few days.

This week I have already provoked her once and been nice twice. Either way I havent been waitning for any approval or reaction from her side.

But this is what seems new currently.

- She has been walking around in her towel after her shower for the past few days. Maso had refered to this earlier:



> Her walking in a towel in front of you for no reason, e.g. pretending to be searching for sth


Also I have noticed that she usually like waits for me to come to bed before she turns off her lights. Then she has also been doing some small talk with me once we are in bed adn the lights are off. To me it always feels like she is trying to keep me awake. So yesterday night I gave in a bit and decides to cuddle with her. I was rather dissapointed because when I carressed her a little she actually became more than passive.. Seems like her reflexes are still on a rather hight level. So I turned back to my side and am still a bit angry because now it seems as I had approached her for sex, which actually wasnt the case.

Then another positive thing is that she has now twice texted me while I was out with friends or at work. There was actually nothing special she wanted it was like "how is work going" and "ok. have fun" etc..

@ Maso
I dont know if this is just me seeing it this way, but our ways in the house cross each other more often currently. And often she has body contact with me while she is busy doing stuff. So I cant really figure out if it is her intention or not. I just know this is sth that hasnt been happening for years.

Maybe she too uses this strategy you have been talking about:


> 2. When you want to heat her up, whatever sexual stuff you are doing needs to sound like a 2nd or even 3rd priority compared to whatever else you are currently busy with.


I mean she isnt beieng overt, but in your post mention that sexual moves whatever kind will trigger a sexual response sooner or later.
She is triggering me sexualy by doing this stuff. 

The only reason I am holding back and staying calm and unshaken is because I am afraid to trigger one of her reflexes like the other night. It hurt so much because I felt like all the work I had done in the past weeks had suddenly been for nothing. It is like an agent who has worked hard and suddenly blows his own damn cover!


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

Onzo said:


> @ Maso
> I dont know if this is just me seeing it this way, but our ways in the house cross each other more often currently. And often she has body contact with me while she is busy doing stuff. So I cant really figure out if it is her intention or not. I just know this is sth that hasnt been happening for years.
> 
> Maybe she too uses this strategy you have been talking about:
> ...


No it isnt your illusion. You are seeing things right. You only have to aware that if you approach her at a time that seems right for sex, her moves will turn out to be baits. So make sure you arent falling for them without having sth greater to do.

This is a good sign and shows that you are on the right track. Keep it up.



> So yesterday night I gave in a bit and decides to cuddle with her. I was rather dissapointed because when I carressed her a little she actually became more than passive.. Seems like her reflexes are still on a rather hight level. So I turned back to my side and am still a bit angry because now it seems as I had approached her for sex, which actually wasnt the case.


You turning back to your side of the bed was a passive agressive move. Avoid that in the future. When you decide to cuddle and she is fine with it, you have to remember that you are already getting sth you want now. So if you push a bit harder and it gets you no where, you have to withdraw back to the cuddling and not withdraw back completely. *Withdrawing back completely only proves she has turned you down!* Remaining on the same spot though leaves your true intention rather very open for interpretation, which can be used to your advantage to show how cool you are with things and especially how cool you are about yourself.


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