# Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss forgiveness—all TAM is invited

Below in quotes is a discussion that Bfree and I have had on another thread about forgiveness. Because forgiveness is extremely important in infidelity and other areas of life I am inviting all to comment.




> *REPLY BY Bfree*
> I see acceptance and forgiveness as being close cousins. I can only speak from my point of view. For me acceptance was acknowledging that I was betrayed, that I was not at fault, that I would probably never fully understand what demons my ex was harboring that allowed her to do what she did to me and to herself. I accepted that this was an experience that I didn't ask for but could learn from. I couldn't choose what was done to me but I could choose how I let it affect me. But my ex showed absolutely no remorse. She was even glib and cruel about it. She didn't care that she hurt me or if she did she wouldn't give me the satisfaction of knowing. Bottom line is that she did not would not seek atonement. So I could accept the action, I could accept that she was broken, but I could not forgive her. Had she shown any remorse or asked for forgiveness at any point in the future I probably could have found it in myself to do so. As such she did not and I successfully dropped that bundle at the side of the road. Refusing to forgive someone doesn't have to mean you let it consume you. It simply means you move on and heal while completely disassociating from the one that hurt you. I don't hate my ex. I don't think anything of her at all. Acceptance allowed me to achieve apathy which in my book is just as good as forgiveness.
> 
> 
> ...








To Bfree

*It seems to me that you are making remorse and reconciliation as mandatory for forgiveness. That is not my understanding of forgiveness*.

Let me give you a real life example that I think is forgiveness that did not include remorse or reconciliation. Years ago I had one of my managers (I will call him Mr. W) get into a heated debate with a client. Mr. W came to me and wanted me to take severe action on the client because the client cussed him out. The action that Mr. W wanted me to take was way too severe so I took a much less severe action on the client. I tried several times to reason with Mr. W but Mr. Was a so full of revenge that he turned on me.

Without me knowing he got into my files and copied a bunch of documents that he thought he would get me fired and even have criminal charges against me. If he could be successful my career was over and I faced prison. H event to my board of Directors and I was called in t explain. My board f directors did not find that the documents that he presented were true and dismissed his allegations. Mr. W then went to the government agency that we do business with and they then had me provide documents on the allegations and my documents showed that his allegations wee not substantiated and his allegations were dismissed. Mr. W was persistent and contacted a U.S. Senator with more allegations that if proven would have put me in prison. Mr. W resigned from his position as one of my managers.


One morning a man came to my office and flashed a badge as he was from the Attorney general’s office of investigation. He had been sent by the Senator and then he asked me where certain files were kept. I showed him and he told me to leave my office and that I could come back at the end of the day. I came back at the end of the day and asked what he found and he said that I would be getting a certified letter in the future and did not discuss anything with me.


Now Mr. W’s allegations had been going on for months and the stress was really building in me as I lost weight and had trouble sleeping. I knew that I had not down what he claimed but I may have made some mistakes that were in my files that I was not aware of; your mind gets all paranoid and you worry like crazy.

Finally many weeks later a certified letter came and the bottom line was “…allegations not confirmed and this case is closed” That was a huge weight off my shoulders. However, Mr. W was not through. He hired a private attorney and his attorney contacted me wanting me to authorize the s corporation that I worked for to give him lots of money. I had to hire an attorney and after many more months Mr. W’s attorney withdrew from the case. For several years after Mr. W would send me letters telling me how I had cheated him out of money and appealed to my “decency” to give him money. Frankly, I think that the revenge and hatred he had finally made him little mentally ill. He actually started to believe some of the allegations that he made that were preposterous and no sane person would consider them as being rational.


After all those years this is what I did. I gave up all thoughts and plans of revenge, and resentments and am no longer angry with him. I will never forget or condone his actions of malice and will never hire him or be any kind of a friend with him. In fact I will never be in any social or private gathering with him. There will never be reconciliation between him and me. My feeling for him is total apathy.

My above actions and attitude, to me, continues forgiveness. I do not have any compassion or empathy for him. Conversely, I have no feeling of ill will towards him and to talk about him does not bring up disturbing emotions. As I have said I have no feeling one way or the other about him, just apathy.

*So Mr. W had no remorse and never asked for atonement and we have never reconciled.* However I am convinced that I have forgiven him and the bases for my forgiveness is described above.

*Bfree, my opinion on your position on forgiveness is that you have confused forgiveness with RECONCILIATION and RESTORATION. In my opinion Forgiveness does not require reconciliation and restoration*.


Because forgiveness is such huge issue that is critical in Infidelity I would invite all to comment


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss forgiveness—all TAM is invited
> 
> Below in quotes is a discussion that Bfree and I have had on another thread about forgiveness. Because forgiveness is extremely important in infidelity and other areas of life I am inviting all to comment.
> 
> ...


Actually that is not true. Case in point, a WS can show remorse, a WS can work to atone for the transgressions they have wrought. But a BS may not be able or may not desire reconciliation. So in your line of thinking if a WS shows remorse and atones MUST there be reconciliation? See I don't see forgiveness as only being part of a reconciliation. I do however see forgiveness only being true and proper if the WS is remorseful regardless of whether reconciliation takes place or not.

One of the time honored and true statements we often hear on TAM is that without full disclosure one cannot really forgive. This is because in order to forgive one must know exactly what you are forgiving. How then does a BS ever come to know everything? How does full disclosure take place? It must come from the only person who was actually there and who felt and experienced it all. It must come from the WS. And I dare say that only a remorseful WS would offer all the details. Only a WS that wished to atone would open up themselves in such a way. Only a WS that truly felt genuine guilt would become that transparent and leave themselves open to such embarrassment and scrutiny. Have you ever heard of a remorseless WS offering up the truth with all the details? So I maintain that in order for forgiveness to occur the BS must know what they are forgiving and the WS must show some remorse. The difference in what I am talking about and your example of Mr W is that you had all the details. You knew what you were forgiving him for. That does make a difference.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

I also wonder if you are confusing acceptance with forgiveness. Take a look at this article that speaks directly to the difference between acceptance and forgiveness.

Ten Steps of Acceptance – When Forgiveness Is Not An Option | Neuroscience and Relationships

_In response to being wronged or mistreated by a loved one, whether emotional or physical abuse, or betrayal and infidelity, forgiveness is often considered the most critical ingredient for healing to eventually take place.

Indeed, depending on the context, forgiveness is a powerfully healing agent. In fact, a refusal to forgive or let go often prolongs suffering for the person that was wronged.

But what happens when the hurtful actions are repetitive and ongoing? Or, when the person who has acted wrongly is not willing (or able) to make meaningful amends? Or when the wronged person is not ready to forgive?

In these circumstances, argues Dr. Janis Abrahms Spring, author of How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, The Freedom Not To, genuine forgiveness can only take place when the onus of responsibility rests on the person who acted wrongly to earn forgiveness, and that, in certain situations, the best option for the person who was mistreated or betrayed is to have the freedom to not forgive, and to instead turn to the healing power of acceptance, one of four approaches to forgiveness.

Drawing from her clinical work with couples dealing with infidelity, she notes there are at least ten interconnected steps for the betrayed person to take in self-directing their healing. These steps can also be universally applied to traumatic experiences and situations other than infidelity. Briefly summarized below, they are to:

1. Honor the full sweep of your emotions.

In this step you recognize the magnitude of the wrong that was done and seek to fully feel and express the emotions you feel in a way that allows you to more deeply understand the full impact of the trauma on you and your life. The secret to living an emotionally fulfilling life, or healing from hurtful experiences, in many ways, lies in how you respond, and the extent to which you have developed your ability to relate to yourself compassionately, seeking to understand your emotions, thoughts and other inner sensations, the painful ones in particular, so that you can embrace them as valuable feedback designed to inform your choices and responses.

2. Give up your need for revenge but continue to seek a just resolution.

A big part of healing is to let go of the natural instinct to hurt back or to take revenge when hurt. Remind yourself that, whereas entertaining retaliatory thoughts/plans may give you a false sense of power over another, such ‘cheap thrills’ can come at great cost to your peace of mind and health. Truth be told, to keep your mind in revenge mode is akin to leaving open wounds continuously exposed. Lasting peace and healing can only be found on a path that allows you to mindfully turn away from retaliation and turn toward instead to better understand yourself as a human being, to compassionately validate yourself for what you went through, what you learned or took from the situation that would possible empower, grow and strengthen you to create a preferred present and future.

3. Stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life.

For healing to take place, it’s essential to become aware of, to stop and to replace any repetitive toxic thinking patterns that may be causing you to obsessively think about the injury in ways that it continuously intrudes and interrupts your life. This causes ongoing distress, trauma and harm. Instead think about how you can fully reengage with your life and the persons and activities you love, and do so as fully as possible. Remember that toxic thinking patterns can trick your brain as they largely operate beneath the radar of your conscious mind. This is why a conscious awareness of these patterns is foundational to replacing them with life enriching thoughts instead.

4. Protect yourself from further abuse.

This step involves fully accepting the fullness of how wrong the other’s actions against you were in order to learn to distance and to protect yourself from such actions in the future. This conscious acceptance allows you to chose to use the pain of your experience as an asset that motivates you to learn how to better protect yourself from harm, and to take precautions to ensure your safety in the present and future, setting up physical barriers if necessary. Your success depends on how much you want the abusive pattern to stop, the extent to which you believe in yourself to make whatever changes necessary, and what you’re willing to do to realize change.

5. Frame the offender’s behaviors in terms of their own problems and personal struggles.

This step asks you to re-think and reframe the actions taken against you so that the wrongful actions are mostly about the person who acted wrongly, their neediness to feel important by tearing others down, for example, and not about you. This means taking the time to see the story of how this person was also wounded by experiencing or witnessing the same or similar actions themselves, perhaps in their childhood. The more you know about a person, the more this allows you to never take their behavior personally, and thus – to increasingly replace any feelings of shame you may feel about what happened to you – with empathy and compassion, at minimum, for one another as human beings. The purpose here is to learn to make it a rule you follow in life to never let another person’s actions dictate how you feel about yourself. You always have a choice, once you realize you do, that is, to take steps to free yourself from any mistaken notions that you deserved or caused the behaviors in any way.

6. Look honestly your own contribution to the injury.

In this step, you examine how your actions, approach and choices may have contributed to the injury you suffered. For most, this sounds more painful than it is because it is not about blaming yourself. It is rather about allowing yourself to authentically examine your own life and self and issues, perhaps to look at how your own fears, past experiences and beliefs, etc., prevented you from seeing that you deserved so much better than the mistreatment, and so on. The purpose here is to allow the pain of the experience to teach you that you were (and are!) much more than a victim, that you acted in misguided ways because, for example, your fears misled you to believe that disapproval or abandonment was far worse than abuse or infidelity. Another thing to learn from this step is that the person who most needs your forgiveness, especially at times when you’re feeling vulnerable because you’ve made a series of mistakes, is yourself.

7. Challenge your false assumptions about what happened.

This step asks you to identify and challenge any limiting beliefs (false assumptions) regarding how you explain what happened in your mind, or when you explain what happened to others. To identify any toxic or limiting patterns, let yourself get into your anger or hurt as you write down what happened without editing or rationalizing your ideas. Then, looking at each thought or belief separately, ask the following questions:

Is this true? What toxic thinking pattern does it fall under?
What limiting belief underlies this thinking? It is an empowering or a limiting belief?
It’s also helpful to ponder whether this is typical of your thinking or whether you need more information, and if so, where can you get it.

8. Look at the offender apart from his offense, weighing the good against the bad.

This step has you look more closely at the person who wronged you separate from their wrongful actions or even their benevolent ones. This permits you to see them and their behaviors more objectively, rather than shift from all-good to all-bad images of the person, which are difficult to reconcile. Acceptance doesn’t require you to feel any particular way toward the person that hurt you; it just asks you to look at the person and his behaviors for their impact on you and your life. You may have wondered, for example, how can a person who is so generous to others be so hurtful, and thus concluded that perhaps you were the one that was crazy to feel so hurt. The person may have been generous and helpful to others, however, if these kind actions were not extended to you, they were selectively both generous and withholding.

9. Decide carefully what kind of a relationship you want with the person who wronged you.

In this step you decide in advance how you will overall relate to this person – on the basis of their actions toward you thus far. Their actions up to this point, and not their words, tell you who they are, and what they plan to do in the future. If the person refuses or is unable to make amends, it is up to you to decide what kind of a relationship makes sense to you under the circumstances. If reconciliation is not possible, therefore, is it possible to even interact with the person? If so, what steps can you take to remain authentic to yourself and still interact in a constructive, and relatively calm and confident way? In the case of a person that is no longer living or accessible, is forgiveness an option, now or in the future? Be gentle with yourself, and take the time to carefully ponder and reflect upon these questions, not hurrying for answers, rather allowing your inner sense of wisdom and knowing to speak to you. If you do not already, learn to trust yourself.

10. Forgive yourself for your own failings.

Last but not least, the closing step is to fully forgive yourself for any of your own mistakes or failings related to the trauma. Keep in mind this does not mean to look for how you hurt the one who wronged you. It rather refers to how you may have trusted them blindly, believed their lies, blamed your self, minimized their wrongs, stopped believing in your magnificence as a human being or dismissed your own suffering, and so on! Maya Angelou puts it this way, “When you know better, you do better.” In many ways your mistakes or failings stem from ingrained old ways of getting your universally human need to matter met, which didn’t allow you to see alternative ways of responding to those you love. Forgiving yourself will make it easier to let go of obsessive thinking patterns, such as blaming yourself for what happened, which would only keep you from living your life fully engaged with the people and activities you love.

Acceptance, a form of forgiveness?

“Acceptance is not forgiveness,” Dr. Abrahms Spring points out. It is rather a critical choice that allows the person wronged to fully take the reins of their own healing – independent of the actions of the person that wronged them.

In a sense, acceptance is a form of forgiveness, however, as both are expressions of genuine love. Like forgiveness, at heart, acceptance is a letting go of instinctive response to hurt back or retaliate – and this letting go, when healthy, stems from a caring understanding that it is in the highest interest of the wronged person’s life to do so. Like compassion, both acceptance and forgiveness invite parties to see and understand self and other empathically, as human beings, in the context of natural life processes that, albeit painful, are ultimately designed for their highest good. It takes an enormous amount of courage to not forgive prematurely, to allow the other to step in and make amends, as it does to repair a relationship.

Forgiveness and acceptance are essential ingredients in learning to love wholeheartedly.

Whether you choose to live in acceptance, or fear in relation to a past betrayal or mistreatment, your response accordingly shapes both the present and future. It’s a choice between allowing automatic defense strategies to decide the course of your life, or consciously accessing the strength of both your courage and your compassion by choosing acceptance. Your choices are powerful emotional energies, fueled by your beliefs, wants, yearnings, thoughts and actions, etc., that powerfully determine the direction your life takes.

In all, acceptance is a transformative emotional stance in life that, in addition to being energy efficient, is a form of genuine love, infinitely more powerful than fear or shame, force or guilting one into forgiving too easily or prematurely._


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

OK you two. From now on you have to post your replies via Twitter.

I'll forgive some things, after a long time. Never infidelity or disrespect.

Hey Blunt. What's the story on the new avatar pic?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Forest said:


> OK you two. From now on you have to post your replies via Twitter.
> 
> I'll forgive some things, after a long time. Never infidelity or disrespect.
> 
> Hey Blunt. What's the story on the new avatar pic?


I thought we were just having a useful and spirited discussion. I have the utmost respect for Mr B. I hope I did not offend. If so, I apologize profusely.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

bfree said:


> I thought we were just having a useful and spirited discussion. I have the utmost respect for Mr B. I hope I did not offend. If so, I apologize profusely.


No, I'm the one that should be apologizing. I was trying to make a lame joke at the in-depthness of you posts. Stupid idea. So, you carry on, and I'll get the shoehorn.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Bfree*
> I thought we were just having a useful and spirited discussion. I have the utmost respect for Mr. B. I hope I did not offend. If so, I apologize profusely


.



We are having a useful and spirited discussion IMO. You have done nothing to offend me in the least; if you offended me you would have heard from me as they do not call me Mr. Blunt for no reason. BF, I have always enjoyed your posts even if we do not always agree but most of what I have read about you in the past we do agree on a LOT. Your post and link to “10 steps of acceptance….” Is one of the most articulate commentaries on forgiveness and acceptance that I have ever read. I am just going to reprint one section below that I think some need to hear often.





> 3. Stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life.
> 
> For healing to take place, it’s essential to become aware of, to stop and to replace any repetitive toxic thinking patterns that may be causing you to obsessively think about the injury in ways that it continuously intrudes and interrupts your life. This causes ongoing distress, trauma and harm. *Instead think about how you can fully reengage with your life and the persons and activities you love, and do so as fully as possible*. Remember that toxic thinking patterns can trick your brain as they largely operate beneath the radar of your conscious mind. This is why a conscious awareness of these patterns is foundational to replacing them with life enriching thoughts instead



Now back to our posts. Your understanding and my understanding of forgiveness have a LOT of the same agreed upon points. However, reprinted below are your posts that I think pinpoints the one difference that we have in our understanding of forgiveness.




> *By Bfree*
> Sometimes forgiveness is too difficult especially if there is *little or no remorse.*
> 
> I do however see *forgiveness only being true and proper if the WS is remorseful *regardless of whether reconciliation takes place or not.



*My understanding of forgiveness is that forgiveness can be true and proper even if the WS or offender IS NOT REMORSEFUL*. In other words forgiveness by the BS-offended can be true and proper even if the WS-offender is NOT REMORSEFUL.


*IF the WS-Offender has to be remorseful in order for the BS-offended to forgive then that puts the power to forgive in the WS-Offender’s power!* That just does not seem right to me. I do not want to be enslaved to the attitude of the offender-WS; that would be so dangerous!

Maybe I did not make my self clear when I said
*
"If you think that forgiveness always means to reconcile the marriage I do not believe that."*



> *By Bfree*
> So in your line of thinking if a WS shows remorse and atones MUST there be reconciliation?



ABSOLUTLY NOT!! If the WS shows remorse the BS has the OPTION to reconcile but is under absolutely no obligation in order for forgiveness to help the BS-offended.

If we wind up not agreeing that is OK because your method has worked for you and mine has worked for me. I enjoy good discussions because we can all see another point of view and learn. With such devastating affets from Infidleity we can use all the learning that we can get!


Thank you Bfree for that very informative article "...10 steps to Acceptance" That was very specific!!


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Forest
> Hey Blunt. What's the story on the new avatar pic?


The one with the 57 Chevy is my first car when I was a teenager and that is me standing next to the car. I cry every time see that 57 Chevy as I sold it for $500!

I go to the car shows and they want $50,000 + for a cherry 57 Chevy like I had.
Now you know why I cry! Besides I loved that car with a 327 motor and a BW-4-speed trany!

If you are talking about the picture in my profile page then that is me dressed up like Dog Chapman the Bounty Hunter for Halloween. I won first price.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Mr Blunt said:


> The one with the 57 Chevy is my first car when I was a teenager and that is me standing next to the car. I cry every time see that 57 Chevy as I sold it for $500!
> 
> I go to the car shows and they want $50,000 + for a cherry 57 Chevy like I had.
> 
> .


Yeah, I get the same way when I think about how as kids we juggled with our Russian granny's ornamental eggs!


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## turningthepage (Apr 11, 2014)

Cool discussion! I hope you both don't mind if I butt in with my 2 cents.
Forgiveness by the BS is for you(the BS) not the WAS. It helps you move forward. Once you start to forgive (even if you don't feel the WAS is deserving of this) your healing will start! 
I'll try saying this another way. Forgiveness is not about growth for the guilty party. It is about the betrayed one's growth.
It is NOT condoning, excusing, pardoning, forgetting or having anything to do with reconciliation.
It has nothing to do with being a doormat!
It empowers you to move ahead to be the special person you are meant to be. 
A tough concept to grasp when you have felt insult upon insult upon betrayal. However, there it is!
Bitterness will make you sick. Move beyond that!
There is tremendous growth opportunity in sadness and heartache.
This is your gift in all this heartache! Take it!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> .
> 
> *IF the WS-Offender has to be remorseful in order for the BS-offended to forgive then that puts the power to forgive in the WS-Offender’s power!* That just does not seem right to me. I do not want to be enslaved to the attitude of the offender-WS; that would be so dangerous!


See this is where our fundamental differences lie regarding forgiveness vs. acceptance. Acceptance allows you to heal and move on. The power shift inevitably and forever to the BS. It is not that the BS is enslaved to the attitude of the WS. On the contrary, the WS does not deserve forgiveness unless they are remorseful and seek atonement. I guess the main point of contention with forgiveness is that I need to know what it is exactly that I'm forgiving. I cannot and will not give out a blanket forgiveness. Maybe that makes me weak and petty. I don't know. But by achieving a level of acceptance I was able to more on and heal without having to put myself through a lot of unnecessary pain and confusion.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

turningthepage said:


> Cool discussion! I hope you both don't mind if I butt in with my 2 cents.
> Forgiveness by the BS is for you(the BS) not the WAS. It helps you move forward. Once you start to forgive (even if you don't feel the WAS is deserving of this) your healing will start!
> I'll try saying this another way. Forgiveness is not about growth for the guilty party. It is about the betrayed one's growth.
> It is NOT condoning, excusing, pardoning, forgetting or having anything to do with reconciliation.
> ...


See, I achieved all that with simple acceptance of my situation. When I think of forgiveness I think of me saying to my exW "it's alright I forgive you." Well, in the absence of remorse I don't forgive her. I accept what was done to me. I accept that I did not ask for it and had no control over it. I accept that she was selfish and weak, as am I by the way. I don't hate her. I don't think of her at all. I don't wish anything bad to happen to her. I don't need and do not wish to seek revenge. But I simply cannot forgive that level of betrayal in the absence of remorse. It doesn't eat me up inside. The only time I think of her or what she did is if I am engaged in this type of discussion. Some might say that I have forgiven her but in my heart I know the difference and I have not.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by Mr Blunt*
> .IF the WS-Offender has to be remorseful in order for the BS-offended to forgive then that puts the power to forgive in the WS-Offender’s power! That just does not seem right to me. I do not want to be enslaved to the attitude of the offender-WS; that would be so dangerous!
> 
> *By Bfree*
> BfreeSee this is where our fundamental differences lie regarding forgiveness vs. acceptance. Acceptance allows you to heal and move on. The power shift inevitably and forever to the BS. It is not that the BS is enslaved to the attitude of the WS. On the contrary, the WS does not deserve forgiveness unless they are remorseful and seek atonement. I guess the main point of contention with forgiveness is that I need to know what it is exactly that I'm forgiving. I cannot and will not give out a blanket forgiveness. Maybe that makes me weak and petty. I don't know. But by achieving a level of acceptance I was able to more on and heal without having to put myself through a lot of unnecessary pain and confusion.





> Acceptance allows you to heal and move on


*So does forgiveness*



> By Bfree
> It is not that the BS is enslaved to the attitude of the WS.
> 
> I do however see *forgiveness only being true and proper if the WS is remorseful* regardless of whether reconciliation takes place or not.


*If I have to wait until the WS is remorseful to forgive then my forgiveness is dependant on the WS*. That may never happen and that would mean under my understanding of your position that without a remorseful WS you are unable to forgive.







> the WS does not *deserve* forgiveness unless they are remorseful and seek atonement.


I have learned for me that forgiveness is not based on deserving but on your gift to them. That gift turns out to help you and release you from bitterness, hate and other negative emotions.





> I guess the main point of contention with forgiveness is that I need to know what it is *exactly* that I'm forgiving.


In my case of her infidelity I knew exactly what I was faced with in forgiving. She cheated out of selfishness and replaced me with another man. I do not need much more than that to know what she did.


Furthermore, under your way my forgiveness would be stopped because the WS would not or could not explain to me *exactly *what to forgive. In fact Bfree you gave a god description of what your wife did to you and it was very plain and without confusion.

Even that man JJ knows what his wife did, she cheated. That is the main thing that you need to forgive her for. I fully agree that it would be a lot better to have a lot of talks about the right things in order to facilitate and make forgiveness not so hard but many times you are not going t get that. *Now what? NO FORGIVENESS to help the BS!*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Turningthepage
> 
> Cool discussion! I hope you both don't mind if I butt in with my 2 cents.
> Forgiveness by the BS is for you(the BS) not the WAS. It helps you move forward. Once you start to forgive (even if you don't feel the WAS is deserving of this) your healing will start!
> ...



Turningthepage
you are not butting in and we are glad that you have joined us. By the way, NICE POST!


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

bfree said:


> See, I achieved all that with simple acceptance of my situation. When I think of forgiveness I think of me saying to my exW "it's alright I forgive you." Well, in the absence of remorse I don't forgive her. I accept what was done to me. I accept that I did not ask for it and had no control over it. I accept that she was selfish and weak, as am I by the way. I don't hate her. I don't think of her at all. I don't wish anything bad to happen to her. I don't need and do not wish to seek revenge. But I simply cannot forgive that level of betrayal in the absence of remorse. It doesn't eat me up inside. The only time I think of her or what she did is if I am engaged in this type of discussion. Some might say that I have forgiven her but in my heart I know the difference and I have not.


:iagree:

Some things are unforgivable, including some cases of infidelity IMO. Can't reconcile this belief with Christian teachings, but it is my view.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Some infrmatioin from a credible medial facility and an education facility on forgiveness. See below*

By Mayo Clinic
Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness - Mayo Clinic

Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness
When someone you care about hurts you, you can hold on to anger, resentment and thoughts of revenge — or embrace forgiveness and move forward. By Mayo Clinic Staff
Nearly everyone has been hurt by the actions or words of another. Perhaps your mother criticized your parenting skills, your colleague sabotaged a project or your partner had an affair. These wounds can leave you with lasting feelings of anger, bitterness or even vengeance — but if you don't practice forgiveness, you might be the one who pays most dearly. By embracing forgiveness, you can also embrace peace, hope, gratitude and joy. Consider how forgiveness can lead *you* down the path of physical, emotional and spiritual well-being. 

What is forgiveness?
Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you. 
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. *Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. *









By Berkely education web site
Forgiveness Definition | Greater Good

What Is Forgiveness?
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.
Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

“See this is where our fundamental differences lie regarding forgiveness vs. acceptance. Acceptance allows you to heal and move on. The power shift inevitably and forever to the BS. It is not that the BS is enslaved to the attitude of the WS. On the contrary, the WS does not deserve forgiveness unless they are remorseful and seek atonement. I guess the main point of contention with forgiveness is that I need to know what it is exactly that I'm forgiving. I cannot and will not give out a blanket forgiveness. Maybe that makes me weak and petty. I don't know. But by achieving a level of acceptance I was able to more on and heal without having to put myself through a lot of unnecessary pain and confusion.”

I have thought about this very topic off and on for a couple of months within myself actually and my situation. I tend to agree more with Bfree. I can accept my situation for what it is. I feel people have to give something in order to earn forgiveness whether that be remorse or the truth or accepting responsibility, there needs to be something. 

I have no desire to seek vengeance, not the type of guy who waits for the karma bus. Mr. Blunt stated that it was a gift yet I have no pressing desire to “forgive” since the gift would mean so little to the recipient to begin with. I no trouble accepting what has happened and what she has become, that was her choice. Forgiving her wouldn’t make me feel better, it wouldn’t aid me to move on. To me forgiving isn’t about release bitterness or negative emotions, I did that long ago when I took an honest look at my mess and accepted it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I think it should be stated here, that neither acceptance, nor forgiveness, implies reconciliation.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

Forgiveness is for the weak.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> Forgiveness is for the weak.


any action (including the forgiveness & acceptance) can be done in a way that shows your weakness or in a way that shows your strength.

Generalization like this would only start a fiery debate. maybe that was the whole point of your post.

I don't know. I'm starting to believe that sometimes ignorance is the bliss.


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## Pattiroxxi (May 3, 2014)

user_zero said:


> any action (including the forgiveness & acceptance) can be done in a way that shows your weakness or in a way that shows your strength.
> 
> Generalization like this would only start a fiery debate. maybe that was the whole point of your post.
> 
> I don't know. I'm starting to believe that sometimes ignorance is the bliss.


If i would have to forgive someone for something that caused me a lot of troubles, pain or anything devastating such as long term ( yes, long-term) infedility, i would have to die first. 

Some people are kind hearted and forgive people even if they hurt them very badly. Then there are people like me, who are rather cold, vindictive and believe people who made you suffer deserve to suffer the same if not more. 

I personaly don't believe in Kharma, and forgiving people for long term infedility or somethign similar makes me want to vomit sometimes.

Not everyone has a kind and loving personality, some people are strict and don't let their guard off.


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## user_zero (Aug 30, 2013)

Pattiroxxi said:


> If i would have to forgive someone for something that caused me a lot of troubles, pain or anything devastating such as long term ( yes, long-term) infedility, i would have to die first.
> 
> Some people are kind hearted and forgive people even if they hurt them very badly. Then there are people like me, who are rather cold, vindictive and believe people who made you suffer deserve to suffer the same if not more.
> 
> ...


Nobody here is saying you SHOULD forgive no matter what.
Again generalizations like "forgiveness is for the weak" is illogical.
it's how you forgive , what you're forgiving , why you're forgiving and what your forgiveness means to you and your partner that makes your forgiveness strong or weak.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

For all my experience forgiveness (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder

My forgiveness or definition of it will be different to someone else's 

I thought by getting through three ddays over 6 /7 years I 'forgave' my wife. Did we reconcile in the right way with her remorse heavy lifting full truths? No, we didn't because my 'forgiveness was based upon a pack of lies anyway, a perception of what I hoped was a situation that was not of course, the truth 

To a large extent every single reconciliation is based on this scenario, then one party the guilty one starts to understand quickly the need for real truth if they are to have any real chance and so the truth gets more important , the 'ability to forgive' from a betrayed spouse has to take on a wider berth. The ability to forgive is re assessed in real time as it evolves. 

I tend to agree that any forgiveness as such tends to be a weakness not a strength 

I know 'myself' and I know myself enough to know that should I accept unconditionally everything from a wayward and forge ahead forgiving everything to make them feel better and give 'them' more of a chance I will not, as I once thought, feel better myself stronger and "healthier". I will feel vulnerable and weak and open to more emotional abuse 

So forgiveness? different for everybody I guess


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Some infrmatioin from a credible medial facility and an education facility on forgiveness. See below*
> 
> By Mayo Clinic
> Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness - Mayo Clinic
> ...


Excellent information Mr B. Everything in these two articles I also achieved with acceptance. Some would say that in effect what I did was to forgive my exW. And that's why I said that acceptance and forgiveness are close cousins. The difference in my mind being what I feel in my heart. I accepted what was done and moved on. But I cannot forgive her without knowing the extent of her transgressions and without seeing genuine remorse. Neither of those things are likely so I am at peace.

One other thing. You mentioned that forgiveness is a gift. I agree. And as it is a gift I can choose whether to give it or not. I do not gift those that I do not feel deserve it. If I were to offer the gift of forgiveness to my exW she would spit it back in my face. Or worse, she would laugh. Now how does that make me feel better? How does that help me to move on? All that would do is to reopen old wounds. No, I'm content with acceptance. Forgiveness will not come in this case.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Pattiroxxi said:


> Forgiveness is for the weak.


Forgiveness is for the strong! In certain cases.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

The stupid neither forgive nor forget.
The naive forgive and forget.
The wise forgive but do not forget.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

An article I found very interesting and pertains to your thread.

_What is the cost of forgiveness? What does this have to do with forgiving infidelity? We’ll talk about that in a moment, but first let me tell a story. Seventeen years ago, within the first two years of marriage, Sandra had multiple affairs. Doubts of whether she’d married the right man plagued her even before the wedding. A better man than Campbell she’d never find, but the spark was missing. She feared he’d be a Steady Freddie who was dull and commonplace. His impeccable character and undying love had captured her attention, but where was that romance of man and maid she’d so longed for? Those feelings never came.

About a year into the marriage Sandra’s boss invited her to lunch. From an innocent beginning blossomed a growing conflagration of passion. He understood her womanly need of small attentions and seemed to get her in ways Campbell never imagined. Justifying her affair was all too easy. She’d never felt like this before, confirming in her mind that she’d married the wrong person, and now she’d found the love of her life. Besides this wasn’t some spur of the moment impulsive whim, they’d spent their days at work talking about music, philosophy, religion and life. Milton knew her better in a month than Campbell had in 2 years.

For the first time in her life she felt compelled to recklessly abandon herself to another. It was like nothing she’d ever experienced, until Milton’s wife discovered their affair and filed for divorce. Milton immediately resigned his job and moved his family to another state. She was shocked; they had planned their future together and now, just like that, he was gone? He even told her he wanted nothing to do with her and to quit bugging him. The pain was unbearable, and even she was surprised at her response. Rather than grieving the loss and moving on, she numbed the pain with three more short-term affairs. What was the difference; she didn’t envision Campbell as any part of her future.

However, about a month after affair number three ended, she and Campbell conceived and life suddenly changed. She loved life as a mom and admired the way Campbell stepped up and supported the family. Over time she even grew to love her life and recognized she had indeed married well.

Skip forward 17 years when Campbell received a call from Milton’s wife. “I told him if it happened again I would no longer keep his secrets, and I just discovered he’s doing it again,” she said. “I thought that you might want to know your wife isn’t who you think she is. Why don’t you ask her about Milton?” Milton’s wife was coping with infidelity in a flurry of anger.

Initially, Sandra lied. She had decided to take the secret of her infidelity to her grave, but eventually she came clean about all four affairs before their first child’s birth. She pleaded for forgiveness; after all, it was 17 years past. But for Campbell it wasn’t seventeen years ago, ground zero was just last month. Forgiving infidelity for him didn’t seem possible. Seventeen years of faithfulness did nothing to ease the pain of her betrayal. In fact, it made it worse. She had caused him to live a lie for 17 years. He no longer trusted his current reality, his past, his future, his wife or himself. How could he have been so blind? How could he just forgive and move on?

For the sake of our discussion let me point out that there are two elements to what we refer to as forgiveness. The first is an internal matter where we choose to forgive the wrong committed against us and no longer expect justice as a result of their offense. Even more, we wish them well. The second element of forgiveness is about reconciliation. It’s where we choose to continue in relationship with that person in spite of their offense. For the sake of this discussion I’m focused on the second element, reconciliation.

All too often we talk about the high price of NOT forgiving. That forgiveness is a gift you give yourself and how failing to forgive leaves you forever a victim. We extol forgiveness as a virtue and share examples of those saints who forgave much to show forgiveness as a possibility. (Even though the fact we even share such stories indicate those people may be the exception, not the rule.) But forgiveness isn’t natural, especially when it comes to forgiving infidelity. It flows against our basic human nature. For most, our initial response to coping with infidelity is justice, not forgiveness. We want restitution, not mercy. We want the scales of justice to be balanced.

An understanding of the high cost of forgiveness seems to go missing when an offense is committed. Far too often I see an entitlement mentality when it comes to receiving forgiveness from our mate or forgiveness from God. As humans we’re supposed to forgive, right? In Christendom we teach “as God forgave us so we’re to forgive.” Isn’t that the lesson we teach our children? But we forget that forgiveness comes at a price. Even the Christian tradition teaches that the price God has paid to forgive mankind’s offenses was the life of His own Son. In the same way, the price paid by the betrayed spouse, if there is to be reconciliation, is high indeed.

What was the price of forgiveness in Campbell and Sandra’s case? Campbell had been an exceptional husband and father, not perfect by any means, but he’d lived and loved well. For him, forgiveness meant violating his personal beliefs and values. He would never have chosen to be with someone who betrayed, lied, and deceived him. He believed in the sanctity of marriage, and to choose to stay with Sandra came at the price of settling for something he never wanted.

Forgiving infidelity would mean sacrificing his dreams of the type of marriage he’d wanted. He’d never have the opportunity to brag to his children about the fidelity of their marriage. To stay meant sacrificing a marriage that was free from doubts. How could he ever again believe a word that she said if she’d been able to deceive him for 17 years? Staying meant the sacrificing of his dignity. He personally knew two of these men, and he now imagined how they’d seen him as the fool. To stay he’d have to sacrifice his rights. Didn’t he have the right to leave and find another who would be faithful to him? Staying and coping with infidelity meant sacrificing the ability to be honest with family. He couldn’t share his struggles, for fear of more complications. To stay would cost him pride. He’d always believed people who stayed were too weak to leave. To stay would cost his self-respect. He couldn’t believe things he’d said and done in his fits of rage. It would be so much easier to be away from her and not be triggered by her presence. To forgive seemed to make a mockery of all he’d sacrificed for the sake of their marriage. Instead of being proud of what he and Sandra had built, he now felt he’d been played the fool and taken advantage of.

All Campbell ever wanted was to love unconditionally and to be loved by someone special, but now his heart was so full of pain and distrust he wasn’t sure whether he could give himself to Sandra or anyone else again. Could he walk through the pain of her betrayal and face the demons he’d encounter if he ever gave himself to her again? For him, choosing to stay would cost him dearly.

Grace isn’t cheap; it comes at a high price. Failure to appreciate the high price paid by those choosing to forgive minimizes the magnitude of their sacrifice. The currencies used by the betrayed spouse to pay off the debt incurred by their mate’s betrayal are pride, ego, and suffering. Forgiving infidelity costs their dignity when they choose to stay rather than leave. It costs them their just due when they choose to forgo justice for the sake of the relationship. It costs them their sanity because they don’t control the painful thoughts invading their mind. Their present-day reality is constantly interrupted with painful memories of the past. It costs them their dreams because this road isn’t one they’d ever planned on traveling. It costs them health because the pain of the offense consumes their life. And I’m only beginning to scratch the surface.

As one who believes in the value of forgiving, I never want to be guilty of cheap grace, where I think it’s something to which I’m entitled. If justice is the standard, then the consequence of betrayal is the loss of relationship. Anything short of that is mercy, indeed. Failing to consider the price paid by others for my sake causes me to be careless with my behavior. Forgiveness and reconciliation are expensive gifts purchased through great suffering and sacrifice on the part of the offended. Failure to understand that reality makes me blind to the love displayed by those who choose to continue on in relationship._


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Honcho
> Forgiving her wouldn’t make me feel better, it wouldn’t aid me to move on



*Honcho, I am not trying to upset you but how would you know if forgiving would not make you feel n better or aid you to move on if you have never forgiven?*


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

happyman64 said:


> An article I found very interesting and pertains to your thread.
> 
> _What is the cost of forgiveness? What does this have to do with forgiving infidelity? We’ll talk about that in a moment, but first let me tell a story. Seventeen years ago, within the first two years of marriage, Sandra had multiple affairs. Doubts of whether she’d married the right man plagued her even before the wedding. A better man than Campbell she’d never find, but the spark was missing. She feared he’d be a Steady Freddie who was dull and commonplace. His impeccable character and undying love had captured her attention, but where was that romance of man and maid she’d so longed for? Those feelings never came.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this HP. A very interesting article indeed. And it just proves that the cost of infidelity is incalculable.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> I think it should be stated here, that neither acceptance, nor forgiveness, implies reconciliation.


*Rookie, I think just about everybody agrees with that; I know I do*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Bfree
> 
> Excellent information Mr B. Everything in these two articles I also achieved with acceptance. Some would say that in effect what I did was to forgive my exW. And that's why I said that acceptance and forgiveness are close cousins. The difference in my mind being what I feel in my heart. I accepted what was done and moved on. But I cannot forgive her without knowing the extent of her transgressions and without seeing genuine remorse. Neither of those things are likely so I am at peace.
> 
> One other thing. You mentioned that forgiveness is a gift. I agree. And as it is a gift I can choose whether to give it or not. I do not gift those that I do not feel deserve it. If I were to offer the gift of forgiveness to my exW she would spit it back in my face. Or worse, she would laugh. Now how does that make me feel better? How does that help me to move on? All that would do is to reopen old wounds. No, I'm content with acceptance. Forgiveness will not come in this case.






> I do not gift those that I do not feel deserve it.


*Bfree, if they deserve it then it is not a gift is it?*








> If I were to offer the gift of forgiveness to my exW she would spit it back in my face. Or worse, she would laugh. Now how does that make me feel better? How does that help me to move on?




I am sure it will not make you feel better. Bfree, since in your case there will be no reconciliation then I have not suggested that you become a masochist. Forgiveness in your case means you giving up the negative emotions such as resentment and vengeance. I know you have given up resentment and vengeance but in your case I am not suggesting that you go see your wife and tell her that you are offering your gift of forgivness to her. You can forgive her but you do not have to go and offer her your gift of forgiveness in person in order to forgive.
Bfree, I think you and I are on the same page on most of this discussion but I do not feel that the person *must deserve* it in order for you to forgive so that YOU can benefit.

I know of a person whose father molester her when she was young and he died. She does not know all the reasons why he did that and he does not DESERVE forgiveness. *Is she to withhold forgiveness and suffer the resentments and bitterness and all the rest of the negative emotions? *Sometimes you have to decide on forgiveness without you being in contact with them and even if they do not deserve it.

I really enjoy your posts and hope you know that I am not going to strong arm you to try and get you to believe like I do. I enjoy the information even if we disagree and hope that the discussion continues. As far as I am concerned you add to this discussion with good information. The bottom line is that you said “…I am content with acceptance” That is good enough for me; we will agree to disagree on one point and continue to discuss as I think this is a good and informative discussion.


By Berkely education web site

What Is Forgiveness?
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, *regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *John Adams*
> An interesting discussion between two TAM folks that I very much respect.
> 
> I wrestled with "what is forgiveness" for years. In the biblical sense, forgiveness is as if the wrong doing never happened. I certainly never reached that point. One of the good things about this site is that it reinforced to me that you can forgive but not forget.
> ...







> *By John A*
> forgiveness is as if the wrong doing never happened. I certainly never reached that point



The same with me John. I have come to the conclusion that the biblical saying about 
“forgiveness is as if the wrong doing never happened” 
is only what God can do and not mankind. I get this understanding from the scripture in Isaiah (see below)

*Isaiah 43:26
"I--yes, I alone--will blot out your sins for my own sake and will never think of them again.*







> By John A
> I now look at acceptance as knowing you can not change what happened, not being ok with what happened, but acknowledging that it is now part of your history.


*Me TOO! GREAT POINT OF CLARITY JOHN!*


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Bfree, if they deserve it then it is not a gift is it?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. Maybe we are just debating semantics. All I know is what I feel in my heart. I have gone 9/10ths of the way there but I won't go the last bit simply because I don't see the need or the benefit to me.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

johnAdams said:


> An interesting discussion between two TAM folks that I very much respect.
> 
> I wrestled with "what is forgiveness" for years. In the biblical sense, forgiveness is as if the wrong doing never happened. I certainly never reached that point. One of the good things about this site is that it reinforced to me that you can forgive but not forget.
> 
> ...


As a Christian I too struggle with the concept of forgiveness in a biblical sense. I know that Christ died for our sins. God sacrificed his son for our forgiveness. But we still need to confess our sins don't we?

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” 1 John 1:9

If our forgiveness by God is dependent on our confessing our sins then my opinion is that the WS must confess their sins and ask the BS for forgiveness. Since I have never received a confession nor have I been asked for forgiveness I will not cheapen the concept by granting it without being earned.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr. Blunt
> Bfree, if they deserve it then it is not a gift is it?
> *By bfree*
> Sure it is. Even if someone deserves something I don't necessarily have to provide it do I?


I guess we have a different definition of gift. To me as gift is something that the person does not deserve, they have not done anything to deserve compensation or forgiveness.




> Full Definition of GIFT
> 1
> : a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
> 2
> : something voluntarily transferred by one person to another *without compensation *







> I Maybe we are just debating semantics.


I think you are right about the semantics





> I won't go the last bit simply because I don't see the need or the benefit to me.


*Fair enough!*


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Thank you both for this discussion - I think it has been really valuable. Especially I liked bfree's 10 steps to acceptance and HM's article.

I used to think of acceptance and forgiveness as one and the same, but I really like bfree's definition and separation of the two. It makes sense to me, since my wife never really asked for my forgiveness but prefer me to just get over it.

I believe I've accepted what happened (as in the past), but what I seem to struggle with is this:



bfree said:


> _
> 4. Protect yourself from further abuse.
> 
> This step involves fully accepting the fullness of how wrong the other’s actions against you were in order to learn to distance and to protect yourself from such actions in the future. This conscious acceptance allows you to chose to use the pain of your experience as an asset that motivates you to learn how to better protect yourself from harm, and to take precautions to ensure your safety in the present and future, setting up physical barriers if necessary. Your success depends on how much you want the abusive pattern to stop, the extent to which you believe in yourself to make whatever changes necessary, and what you’re willing to do to realize change.
> _


This; I don't think is really possible when we talk about infidelity. You can't protect yourself against further betrayal if you want to be in a relationship. The partner is in sole control of this (physical barriers... hmmm..) You have to accept the risk instead, and that's the scary part, I think. 
So; I haven't really accepted it, or... - what do you think?


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Bfree
> As a Christian I too struggle with the concept of forgiveness in a biblical sense. I know that Christ died for our sins. God sacrificed his son for our forgiveness. But we still need to confess our sins don't we?
> 
> “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” 1 John 1:9
> ...


You make a good point with scripture. However, I can show you scripture where forgiveness was granted without confession and asking for forgiveness; read the story of Joseph in Genesis chapters 43-50.

Forgive me Bfree but you do not seem to reconcile your statement and your actions or you have confused me. 

You said that:




> Everything in these two articles I also achieved with acceptance.
> (see articles below)
> 
> But I cannot forgive her without knowing the extent of her transgressions and without seeing genuine remorse.


Those articles define forgiveness and you said that you have achieved that with acceptance. That tells me that you forgave her

Then you say that “I cannot forgive her…”

*Can you un-confuse me?*

By Mayo Clinic
Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness - Mayo Clinic

Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness
When someone you care about hurts you, you can hold on to anger, resentment and thoughts of revenge — or embrace forgiveness and move forward. By Mayo Clinic Staff
Nearly everyone has been hurt by the actions or words of another. Perhaps your mother criticized your parenting skills, your colleague sabotaged a project or your partner had an affair. These wounds can leave you with lasting feelings of anger, bitterness or even vengeance — but if you don't practice forgiveness, you might be the one who pays most dearly. By embracing forgiveness, you can also embrace peace, hope, gratitude and joy. Consider how forgiveness can lead you down the path of physical, emotional and spiritual well-being. 

What is forgiveness?
Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you. 
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life.




By Berkely education web site
What Is Forgiveness?
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness.
Just as important as defining what forgiveness is, though, is understanding what forgiveness is not. Experts who study or teach forgiveness make clear that when you forgive, you do not gloss over or deny the seriousness of an offense against you. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses. Though forgiveness can help repair a damaged relationship, it doesn’t obligate you to reconcile with the person who harmed you, or release them from legal accountability.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

cpacan said:


> Thank you both for this discussion - I think it has been really valuable. Especially I liked bfree's 10 steps to acceptance and HM's article.
> 
> I used to think of acceptance and forgiveness as one and the same, but I really like bfree's definition and separation of the two. It makes sense to me, since my wife never really asked for my forgiveness but prefer me to just get over it.
> 
> ...


I believe that protecting yourself from further abuse is meant to reference the person in question. For instance if you are the BS the person you must protect yourself from is the WS that betrayed you. But your post does bring up an interesting topic that relates to what is being discussed. How can you protect yourself from further abuse from another person in the future. I think it is the same whether you are discussing reconciling with the abuser or protecting yourself from abuse from future partners. Experience. We have all been unfortunately indoctrinated into the club that nobody wants to join. But that membership, however painful it may be, does have some perks. Let me explain it by referencing my own life and relationships.

My exW did a horrible thing to me but it did teach me several things. I now am acutely aware of the red flags that I should have been paying attention to in my first marriage. I will never again ignore a feeling of distance or disconnect with my partner. Also, I will never again allow anyone to have that much control and sway in my life and emotional states. My life is my own and if I choose to share it with another it is still my life, not theirs. Furthermore, I am now very much aware of my own weaknesses and the fact that others are weak as well. I will never trust anyone 100% specifically because of this. Frankly, knowing how weak I am and can be I don't trust myself 100% so I make sure not to put myself in situations where my weakness can be exploited. So if I cannot trust myself 100% I'd be a fool to trust others that much. I also make sure to continually foster communications with my wife. I will never again be afraid of saying what I feel or calling her out if I think something is up. I'd rather be accused of prying than allow misunderstandings to fester untreated. I also insisted that we have complete and total transparency in our relationship. I will never again be gaslighted or feel anxiety without dealing with it then and there.

Those are some of the changes that I have made in myself and in my relationships. Does it prevent me from being betrayed again? No. But it does provide some insulation and I can guarantee that the life lessons I have learned taught me that everyone is capable of betrayal so one should never really be that surprised if/when it occurs.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> I believe that protecting yourself from further abuse is meant to reference the person in question. For instance if you are the BS the person you must protect yourself from is the WS that betrayed you. But your post does bring up an interesting topic that relates to what is being discussed. How can you protect yourself from further abuse from another person in the future. I think it is the same whether you are discussing reconciling with the abuser or protecting yourself from abuse from future partners. Experience. We have all been unfortunately indoctrinated into the club that nobody wants to join. But that membership, however painful it may be, does have some perks. Let me explain it by referencing my own life and relationships.
> 
> My exW did a horrible thing to me but it did teach me several things. I now am acutely aware of the red flags that I should have been paying attention to in my first marriage. I will never again ignore a feeling of distance or disconnect with my partner. Also, I will never again allow anyone to have that much control and sway in my life and emotional states. My life is my own and if I choose to share it with another it is still my life, not theirs. Furthermore, I am now very much aware of my own weaknesses and the fact that others are weak as well. I will never trust anyone 100% specifically because of this. Frankly, knowing how weak I am and can be I don't trust myself 100% so I make sure not to put myself in situations where my weakness can be exploited. So if I cannot trust myself 100% I'd be a fool to trust others that much. I also make sure to continually foster communications with my wife. I will never again be afraid of saying what I feel or calling her out if I think something is up. I'd rather be accused of prying than allow misunderstandings to fester untreated. I also insisted that we have complete and total transparency in our relationship. I will never again be gaslighted or feel anxiety without dealing with it then and there.
> 
> Those are some of the changes that I have made in myself and in my relationships. Does it prevent me from being betrayed again? No. But it does provide some insulation and I can guarantee that the life lessons I have learned taught me that everyone is capable of betrayal so one should never really be that surprised if/when it occurs.



Good point about one's own weakness about being vulnerable to 'attack' in the future. I'm really feeling that not 'forgiving' this last time is better for me in terms of self preservation even if it does mean I miss out on 'the one' My weakness is being codependent and it has got me into terrible situations and pain. Never again.

Interesting points about how you now have a different set of rules or 'timings' to follow I'd also have that if I were in a relationship again . We'll see! 

What a short but very interesting thread. For me people have put into words what I'd find difficult so well done all of you.

It does tell me personally that forgiveness is really a concept that is a bit like a dream - it just can't be in the real world. When things have been done to you good or bad that's it - nothing is going to change it. There is no wiping the slate clean in reality.

It's then a case of dealing with a slate that has an irreparable crack in it and most of us I think give up trying to repair it. Few of us seem to be able to put it aside and ignore and try to get something new from the old but it is really never the same.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> You make a good point with scripture. However, I can show you scripture where forgiveness was granted without confession and asking for forgiveness; read the story of Joseph in Genesis chapters 43-50.
> 
> 
> *Yes, we have all been granted unconditional forgiveness. But that is unilateral forgiveness that was purchased with the blood of Christ. That type of forgiveness does not occur within any other relationship.
> ...


I'll try. 

The two articles you mentioned do talk about forgiveness. But they can also be applied to what I believe is acceptance. If you look at what I pasted from Janis Abrahms Spring she is talking about acceptance being quite a bit like forgiveness offering the same healing and peace as forgiveness when the offender refuses to atone for their transgressions. I hold the same opinion as Dr. Spring, that true forgiveness can and should only be granted if the guilty party shows remorse or is willing to try to repair the damage they caused. I can let go of all the anger, all the anguish and all the negative emotions without granting full forgiveness. This I did with acceptance and the choice to turn a negative into a positive. See, by making the choice apart from my exW and any actions or inactions I was able to put it behind me and learn from one of the most painful periods of my life.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Headspin said:


> Good point about one's own weakness about being vulnerable to 'attack' in the future. I'm really feeling that not 'forgiving' this last time is better for me in terms of self preservation even if it does mean I miss out on 'the one' My weakness is being codependent and it has got me into terrible situations and pain. Never again.
> 
> Interesting points about how you now have a different set of rules or 'timings' to follow I'd also have that if I were in a relationship again . We'll see!
> 
> ...


You are correct. Once betrayal occurs then it will never be the same. But that isn't all bad. I have seen situation where relationships have become stronger and more loving after a betrayal. It takes a huge effort from both parties but I believe it is worth it. And both end up stronger individuals as well.

I don't think forgiveness is a dream. I do believe in forgiveness but only if the WS is remorseful and seeks to make right what they did wrong. And if the BS is capable and willing and feels it is in THEIR best interest to forgive.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> I know of a person whose father molester her when she was young and he died. She does not know all the reasons why he did that and he does not DESERVE forgiveness. *Is she to withhold forgiveness and suffer the resentments and bitterness and all the rest of the negative emotions?* Sometimes you have to decide on forgiveness without you being in contact with them and even if they do not deserve it.
> 
> 
> By Bfree
> She could simply accept what was done, heal and try to grow as a person without forgiving him. Not forgiving doesn't equate to holding onto resentment and negative emotions.


*I do not agree with that at all. Another one we will have to agree to disagree on*


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> You make a good point with scripture. However, I can show you scripture where forgiveness was granted without confession and asking for forgiveness; read the story of Joseph in Genesis chapters 43-50.
> By Bfree
> 
> ...


Bfree, I agree with you about divine forgiveness but the example of Joseph I gave you was mankind’s forgiveness that was granted without confession and asking for forgiveness; not devine.

Frankly, I think our difference on this issue is a moot point because based on what you have told me you have forgiven your x-wife even though she did not confess or ask you for forgiveness.










[


> COLOR="green"]Forgive me Bfree but you do not seem to reconcile your statement and your actions or you have confused me.
> 
> You said that:[/COLOR]
> 
> ...




Again, it appears that you have forgiven your ex-wife without her remorse or willing to repair the damage. If you have not forgiven her you have not specifically explained what that specifically means.* Do you have some negative emotion in you? How does your Un-forgiveness of her affect you?*

Regardless if we can ever fully understand this one issue I want you to know that your contribution is valuable and I really like that article that you linked us to
Ten Steps of Acceptance – When Forgiveness Is Not An Option | Neuroscience and Relationships

That works for you Bfree so thank you for explaining


*PS
I do not care what anyone says; it takes a strong man or woman to forgive or do what Bfree did!*


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr. B, I know I'm probably not explaining things very well. It's sometimes difficult to put into words what you only know and feel in your heart.

I guess you could say that acceptance is a form of forgiveness but in my mind it falls just a tad short. I think the way I would explain it is that I feel that true forgiveness would include at least in part a partial reparation of the relationship. Not a complete reconciliation mind you but at least a thread of restoration of the relationship must happen. I do not believe that full forgiveness can happen in the absence of the betrayer. And that would only take place if the betrayer shows remorse and/or seeks to right the wrong. In that case some might call it partial forgiveness. I call it acceptance. If I were to forgive my exW I would have an image of her in my mind's eye of a person that was not all bad, not all good. Someone that was weak and selfish at times but could be loving and caring. But that is not the image I have of her. I have no image of her. I think neither good nor bad of her. I have absolutely no feelings toward her at all. She is a complete and total blank slate to me. An empty shell. A shadow against a black wall. She is to me nothing more than a stranger that I have never and will never meet. I have completely separated her from the act she committed. I have chosen to take that act of betrayal and incorporate it into my experiences. I have chosen to learn from it, grow from it, and take it into my very being. But it was as if it was committed by a ghost, a formless entity, a disembodied empty space. Granted the fact that we had no children together helped a great deal. But this is what I call acceptance. I accept that this evil was done to me but as for her...zip...nadda...nothing. So in my mind I cannot forgive her because she exists apart from the act itself. I haven't forgiven her. I have erased her. When I think of her now I do so in completely objective terms. She is a woman that committed several acts of infidelity and hurt someone greatly. But I don't allow those thoughts to associate with what happened to me. There is a purposeful and definite disconnect. Maybe that's a self defense mechanism. I don't know. But it works for me and that's all that matters.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The relationship between forgiveness and grudge holding is close to me because I can hold a grudge with the best of them but don't have trouble forgiving. To me, forgiveness is letting go of anger and accepting that not everyone has the capacity to give the things you seek, and these things are out of your control anyway. 

To me it's obvious that my ex treated me very poorly, but I don't think he truly realizes it because he lacks the ability to self reflect. He's not evil, he's just not able to look in the mirror. Because of this I hold no anger toward him.

A grudge for me is a protective wall, and this is where I struggle. The big effect of my csa is that I don't trust people, because the adults that were supposed to protect me when I couldn't looked the other way. So when I perceive transgressions, I don't necessarily hold anger so much as I barricade myself emotionally. I'm trying to work on this by really examining motives; if someone truly means you harm you must protect yourself but, sometimes people don't, and that's where i'm trying to let go. If a relationship is toxic let it go but don't bother with anger. Also examine every possible way you contributed to get yourself where you are; true my ex was a jerk but I picked him and put up with it. That's on me.

Sorry, most of that was me rambling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Bfree
> I think the way I would explain it is that I feel that true forgiveness would include at least in part *a partial reparation of the relationship*


Bfee that was a very good explanation and I can now see the one difference that you and I have. Thank you


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By LITS
> if someone truly means you harm you must protect yourself but, sometimes people don't, and that's where i'm trying to let go. If a relationship is toxic let it go but don't bother with anger. Also examine every possible way you contributed to get yourself where you are; true my ex was a jerk but I picked him and put up with it. That's on me.


*Very good advice!

You do not have to apologize for your post*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Pattiroxxi said:


> Forgiveness is for the weak.


Quite the contrary. forgiveness is for the strong.....and the wise. To give in to hate and stubborness only hurts the BS.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Mr. Blunt you are not upsetting me in the least, as I said in my post of have been reflecting on this very topic to myself lately and this site is about learning different views/perspectives. 

I have forgiven in the past. My life experience have taught me that forgiving someone doesn’t release negative emotions as I had already done all that with acceptance. Maybe what I define as acceptance you would define as forgiveness. 

My experiences have taught me that if the party I have forgiven doesn’t “earn” at least some of my forgiveness it just comes back to hurt further or haunt me later. Maybe I have forgiven wrong, I don’t know. I don’t think forgiving is a weakness yet most times the person I forgive will view it that way and later try use it for their own gain later.

The whole topic is hard to formulate the words and have it make sense. I do think forgiveness does make a difference whether reconciling or not as the dynamics are much different situations. 

Whether it be acceptance or forgiveness I do think long term you must do one or the other for yourself. I found it quite interesting when my disaster first started I spoke at great lengths about it with my best friend whose marriage imploded many, many years ago because of infidelity. He was married for 3 years but has held the bitterness and anger for 14 years now. I never knew just how hurt he was as he never spoke of it and I really didn’t see how much it has changed him over the years because he “never let it go” until we started talking.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Honcho
> Maybe what I define as acceptance you would define as forgiveness


As Bfree stated acceptance and forgiveness are close cousins.

However I do see that you and I may have one difference. That difference is that you seem to require the offender to “earn” at least some of your forgiveness. I think that if the offender tried to make it up to you (earn) out of sincere remorse that would certainly make forgiveness easier but I do not believe that that “earn’ is a requirement. In some cases the offender will never try to earn your forgiveness and if earning is a requirement then the offended or BS will not be able to complete the forgiveness. 

*In the situations that I posted earlier, the woman who was molested by her father that died and my experience with Mr. W, there was NO EARNING done by the offender. If earning was a requirement then there would never be any forgiving.*

If I have not made it clear on my earlier post I want to make it clear now. Forgiveness is mostly for the forgiver, especially when there is the case of NO RECONCILIATION.

Honcho, thanks for your reply


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

I posted part of the mayo clinic article on forgiveness but not all. Just in case someone can benefit from all the information I am posting more of the article


From Mayo Clinic

Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness - Mayo Clinic

*Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness*
When someone you care about hurts you, you can hold on to anger, resentment and thoughts of revenge — or embrace forgiveness and move forward. By Mayo Clinic Staff
Nearly everyone has been hurt by the actions or words of another. Perhaps your mother criticized your parenting skills, your colleague sabotaged a project or your partner had an affair. These wounds can leave you with lasting feelings of anger, bitterness or even vengeance — but if you don't practice forgiveness, you might be the one who pays most dearly. By embracing forgiveness, you can also embrace peace, hope, gratitude and joy. Consider how forgiveness can lead you down the path of physical, emotional and spiritual well-being. 


*What is forgiveness?*
Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for the one who hurt you. 
Forgiveness doesn't mean that you deny the other person's responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. 



*What are the benefits of forgiving someone?*
Letting go of grudges and bitterness can make way for compassion, kindness and peace. Forgiveness can lead to: 
•	Healthier relationships 
•	Greater spiritual and psychological well-being 
•	Less anxiety, stress and hostility 
•	Lower blood pressure 
•	Fewer symptoms of depression 
•	Lower risk of alcohol and substance abuse 



*Why is it so easy to hold a grudge?*When you're hurt by someone you love and trust, you might become angry, sad or confused. If you dwell on hurtful events or situations, grudges filled with resentment, vengeance and hostility can take root. If you allow negative feelings to crowd out positive feelings, you might find yourself swallowed up by your own bitterness or sense of injustice. 

*What are the effects of holding a grudge? * 
If you're unforgiving, you might pay the price repeatedly by bringing anger and bitterness into every relationship and new experience. Your life might become so wrapped up in the wrong that you can't enjoy the present. You might become depressed or anxious. You might feel that your life lacks meaning or purpose, or that you're at odds with your spiritual beliefs. You might lose valuable and enriching connectedness with others. 


*How do I reach a state of forgiveness? *
Forgiveness is a commitment to a process of change. To begin, you might: 
•	Consider the value of forgiveness and its importance in your life at a given time
•	Reflect on the facts of the situation, how you've reacted, and how this combination has affected your life, health and well-being
•	When you're ready, actively choose to forgive the person who's offended you
•	Move away from your role as victim and release the control and power the offending person and situation have had in your life
As you let go of grudges, you'll no longer define your life by how you've been hurt. You might even find compassion and understanding.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Mr. Blunt and Bfree I have found the information you posted very interesting and insightful, thank you. 

The situation with my stbx is still an ongoing battle and maybe once the divorce ever gets done I might have a different perspective. I can also play devils advocate just for conjecture and say when I caught her starting an EA 5 years ago, I forgave her, maybe had I made her “earn” my forgiveness more I wouldn’t be in the mess I am in today. 

My mother is a long term alcoholic and the professional victim and has been since I was a small child. Im now 48 and wrestled with some the forgiveness/acceptance scenarios over the years with her. She really is one of the more destructive people you will ever meet. Lets just say in the great scope of things there is worse than infidelity. Once I accepted who she is, accepted she will never change because she has no intention to change my negative feelings, grudges, the peace you say I would get thru forgiveness I got thru acceptance. 

I by no means say I have a better way and I could be completely wrong. Everyone deals with different emotions differently.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> Mr. B, I know I'm probably not explaining things very well. It's sometimes difficult to put into words what you only know and feel in your heart.
> 
> I guess you could say that acceptance is a form of forgiveness but in my mind it falls just a tad short. I think the way I would explain it is that I feel that true forgiveness would include at least in part a partial reparation of the relationship. Not a complete reconciliation mind you but at least a thread of restoration of the relationship must happen. I do not believe that full forgiveness can happen in the absence of the betrayer. And that would only take place if the betrayer shows remorse and/or seeks to right the wrong. In that case some might call it partial forgiveness. I call it acceptance. If I were to forgive my exW I would have an image of her in my mind's eye of a person that was not all bad, not all good. Someone that was weak and selfish at times but could be loving and caring. But that is not the image I have of her. I have no image of her. I think neither good nor bad of her. I have absolutely no feelings toward her at all. She is a complete and total blank slate to me. An empty shell. A shadow against a black wall. She is to me nothing more than a stranger that I have never and will never meet. I have completely separated her from the act she committed. I have chosen to take that act of betrayal and incorporate it into my experiences. I have chosen to learn from it, grow from it, and take it into my very being. But it was as if it was committed by a ghost, a formless entity, a disembodied empty space. Granted the fact that we had no children together helped a great deal. But this is what I call acceptance. I accept that this evil was done to me but as for her...zip...nadda...nothing. So in my mind I cannot forgive her because she exists apart from the act itself. I haven't forgiven her. I have erased her. When I think of her now I do so in completely objective terms. She is a woman that committed several acts of infidelity and hurt someone greatly. But I don't allow those thoughts to associate with what happened to me. There is a purposeful and definite disconnect. Maybe that's a self defense mechanism. I don't know. But it works for me and that's all that matters.


I think you underestimate your ability to express yourself bfree

From your explanations I get it get where you're coming from especially the defence mechanism 

Interesting the kids situation which for you and I are different because but for that I too would have erased my vstbxw in all but as something, an experience that I should never accept or forgive, forget that will now protect me from anymore of the same.

Maybe it's my particular bad point 'unhealthiness' but my anger and lack of forgiveness really helps me. When I 'accepted' her weaknesses and her 'reasoning' even though affected by having 'issues' etc etc I was left vulnerable and open to more abuse more adultery more deceit. I often concede it's my 'fault' that I did not adequately enforce boundaries etc but Christ if somebody has a black heart and will take advantage of your love and support for them time and again how can that keep being your fault !?! That's why any form of acceptance of forgiveness of that behavior is now a weakness from my point of view.

Having anger or bitterness in my heart has not stopped me moving on. I don't mope around all day sticking needles into voodoo dolls. I have a good life, two great kids, who I work hard and look after for 50% of their lives, great friends full busy schedules etc etc. I enjoy my life more than when I had to worry about her cheating ass night after night week after week year after year. 

BUT I'm not ever gonna feel okay about her and what she did to us as a family to what she did to the other marriages she blew to smithereens. She'll never get a green light from me or any 'acceptance' about her behavior. Wtfk should she? Why should somebody like this ever get to feel they can forget their actions, their culpability in all these things? Part of me thinks handing out 'acceptance' 'forgiveness' gives that to a wayward spouse 

But I constantly see on TAM and all over the place that apparently my anger damages me , my bitterness is 'unhealthy' I apparently should be able to fully forgive her and it will make _me_ a 'better' person.!

I'm already a better person have a better life imo anyway. I don't allow my inner feeling about ws to infiltrate into all my life. I own that part and it stays inside for me, just to remind myself every now and then of how evil a person can be and to never let my guard down again 

In a sense apart from having to deal with kids and the left overs of financial settlement I have as you say, erased her from my life emotionally as much as I can 

One of the biggest things about my experiences with adultery infidelity is that I believe truly there is nothing wrong with having anger bitterness but of course to not let it, as a cancer, destroy your life. 

For me anger/bitterness has worked out to be a great tool in terms of relieving pressure that builds up when somebody is destroying your life especially after the event after all has come out (or almost all as you'll never ever get the whole lot from a wayward)


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

honcho said:


> Mr. Blunt you are not upsetting me in the least, as I said in my post of have been reflecting on this very topic to myself lately and this site is about learning different views/perspectives.
> 
> I have forgiven in the past. My life experience have taught me that forgiving someone doesn’t release negative emotions as I had already done all that with acceptance. Maybe what I define as acceptance you would define as forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Honcho, forgiveness cannot be "earned" it is a gift from the victim or wronged party to the perpetrator. What you "earn" is renewed trust and esteem. I forgave my ex wife, but I still divorced her. There is nothing she could have done to "earn" that forgiveness, but by her actions later, after the divorce, I began to be able to trust her again. See what I mean?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Allow me to expand on my earlier post.
Acceptance means that you accept and understand what happened, the reasons it happened and any future "scars" or other ramifications resulting from what happened.
Forgiveness means that you do not hold the adultery against the WS in your future interactions (if any).
These actions are taken for the benefit of the BS....not for the WS.
In point of fact, I forgave my ex wife many years before she was able to forgive herself. She still has not done so, completely.
NONE of this means that you will reconcile, or that the reconciliation will be successful. After almost three years of divorce, we tried to reconnect. Actually, I forgave my ex wife so completely, that I was able to reconnect with her sexually, but was unable to reconnect with her, emotionally or romantically. 
Regardless of what actions you attempt, acceptance, forgiveness, reconciliation or divorce, the best outcome will be closure . My marriage and her cheating are past history. I learned from it, but it is no longer part of my future.


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## badkarma2013 (Nov 9, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Allow me to expand on my earlier post.
> Acceptance means that you accept and understand what happened, the reasons it happened and any future "scars" or other ramifications resulting from what happened.
> Forgiveness means that you do not hold the adultery against the WS in your future interactions (if any).
> These actions are taken for the benefit of the BS....not for the WS.
> ...



A Major Factor is WE MUST NOT confuse Forgiveness with Reconcilaition For they ARE NOT THE SAME THING!


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Honcho*
> I can also play devils advocate just for conjecture and say when I caught her starting an EA 5 years ago, I forgave her, maybe had I made her “earn” my forgiveness more I wouldn’t be in the mess I am in today


. 

Honcho
From what I have read about your situation you could not make her earn anything. Your wife has been totally out of control for a long time and has some real mental issues. *You cannot think that you are responsible do you?*


Honcho, after I read a little bit of your story I am wondering why you wanted to R after so much damage your wife did repeatedly and for years?

Since I do not believe in “EARN” being criteria forgiveness then I cannot comment anymore on your conjecture.







> *By Honcho*
> My mother is a long term alcoholic and the professional victim and has been since I was a small child. Im now 48 and wrestled with some the forgiveness/acceptance scenarios over the years with her. She really is one of the more destructive people you will ever meet. Lets just say in the great scope of things there is worse than infidelity. Once I accepted who she is, accepted she will never change because she has no intention to change my negative feelings, grudges, the peace you say I would get thru forgiveness I got thru acceptance




*Honcho
Sounds like you forgave your mother without making her earning it a criteria. Congratulations!*




Frankly, I think some people blend in reconciliation as always a part of forgiveness because with reconciliation there is the criteria of earn. Forgiveness does not have earn as a criteria.

Following up on Rookie’s posts, Karma nailed it in one sentence with the below quote
*



A Major Factor is WE MUST NOT confuse Forgiveness with Reconciliation For they ARE NOT THE SAME THING

Click to expand...

*


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

I understand the difference between acceptance, forgiveness and forgetting, my problem is how do you know when you have forgiven? Is it a totally conscious decision, something that just happens, or a little of both?
I think I have forgiven, but how do I know for sure? I am no longer angry or hurt much, I think about it every day and some days it still bothers me that he did it and I am sometimes resentful. Does that mean I have not totally forgiven, I am holding something back.

I am not sure it is something you can say you have done and that's it, all is forgiven. I have forgiven enough to be able to live with him, enjoy his company work on rebuilding what we had, or I thought we had. 

And then it strikes me that it is unfair that I am the one who thinks about this, deals with this, debates myself over these thoughts and feelings while he seemingly is fine with everything now. He never brings it up, but why would he open that can or worms.

And then I feel a little resentful again and the forgiveness question remains.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Pam, I cannot say whether you have forgiven or not. That is something only you can decide. What I will say is that I know I haven't forgiven because I don't choose to and I know in my heart and mind that I haven't. I will also say that forgiveness is not a switch. It's not black and white. It's a gradual thing that occurs over time and with a lot of thought and patience. I do think that forgiveness is a choice. I don't think you can just decide one day to forgive. I think there is much more to it than that. But I do think you can consciously and/or unconsciously choose not to forgive. If you want to forgive but don't feel you have yet then I would suggest you might have accepted and partially forgiven but maybe are holding back just a little as protection from being hurt again. This is also very understandable considering the betrayal you have endured.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

*Pam you have not forgiven 100% IMO*
If fact I think that Bfree’s statement reprinted below has a lot of merit.


> By Bfree
> I would suggest you might have accepted and partially forgiven but maybe are holding back just a little as protection from being hurt again.




The reason that I do not think that you have forgiven 100% is because you said:



> I think about it every day
> Sometimes resentful
> It strikes me that it is unfair
> Resentful again


I do think that you are on the tract on forgiveness because you said:



> I have forgiven enough to be able to live with him, enjoy his company work on rebuilding what we had, or I thought we had.


You deserve to be congratulated for the progress that you have made




Pam, how long have you been in R?

I ask this because you said that *“I think about it every day” *My suggestion? FORCE yourself to put those thoughts out of your mind and FORCE yourself to think about how you can be more satisfied with who you are then take actions to be more satisfied.

Another suggestion for you is forget about what is fair. This life and world is unfair and it will serve you well to replace fair with you asking yourself the question of;* how can I make this situation better for me?*

Have you been shyt on? HELL YES!! Is anything going to erase that injustice done to you? HELL NO What does that leave you with? It leaves you with a choice of you concentrating and thinking about how unfair you have been treated or choosing to direct your thoughts and action towards you building yourself up in every way that you can.

In a marraige many people depend on their spouse for a lot of their life including their idealism and for such benevolent things such as 100% trust, your self worth, unconditional love, forgiveness, complete loyalty, always keeping their promises and having the strength to fulfill all of those things. Of course there is more but these are the ones I just thought of right now.


When you experience infidelity all those things above are shattered. Can you rebuild them? Of course you can start rebuilding and that is highly advisable when the two want to R. In fact if you are going to R you had better start rebuilding or the marriage will deteriorate.

If you have read a lot of my posts you will see that I often say to *“build yourself up to become more self sufficient.”* I am NOT talking about shutting off your emotions and becoming an Island. What I am saying is to *become stronger in your self worth and get more wisdom in understanding the human condition of yourself and your spouse and others.*

Here is my thinking. You cannot trust anyone 100%, there is no such thing as unconditional love in marriage, you will be one very lucky person if you have someone that will always be loyal to you, you cannot achieve a high degree of forgiveness on your own, and I do not believe that anyone can always have the strength to fulfill their promises to you.


Here s my thinking on R
You can achieve 90+% in trust, know that marriage love is conditional, being loyal and having someone be loyal to you most of the time is very strengthening, and even though people may have the best of intentions there will be times when they do not have the strength to always keep their promises. That is why forgiveness and wisdom is so important. In this world you are going to be Shyt on and one very important way to get out of negative emotions and especially resentments is to forgive so that you can move on.

*With the acceptance, you becoming stronger and more self sufficient, and with achieving a high degree of forgiveness, you can have a successful R and life*.


Isn’t that what most of us people want?


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

<<Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS
Pam you have not forgiven 100% IMO
If fact I think that Bfree’s statement reprinted below has a lot of merit.
Quote:
By Bfree
I would suggest you might have accepted and partially forgiven but maybe are holding back just a little as protection from being hurt again.


The reason that I do not think that you have forgiven 100% is because you said:

Quote:
I think about it every day
Sometimes resentful
It strikes me that it is unfair
Resentful again
I do think that you are on the tract on forgiveness because you said:

Quote:
I have forgiven enough to be able to live with him, enjoy his company work on rebuilding what we had, or I thought we had.
You deserve to be congratulated for the progress that you have made




Pam, how long have you been in R?

I ask this because you said that “I think about it every day” My suggestion? FORCE yourself to put those thoughts out of your mind and FORCE yourself to think about how you can be more satisfied with who you are then take actions to be more satisfied.>>

We have been in R for about 15 months or so. I think maybe I should take a break from TAM and see if that changes my mind-set, but then, as I am semi-addicted to reading here it will be a conscious effort to do so, which will make me think about it anyway.

When I think about the A, I don't get upset or angry, it's just there. I don't feel hatred for the OW and I don't think my self-worth is reliant on my H and therefore is injured by what he did.

Maybe I just need another hobby  

It does seem the forgiveness is a gradual thing in shades of gray and not the 'switch' decision that some make it sound like though, like "I have chosen to forgive' and boom it is done.
My H continues to uphold his word and I have no reason to believe he will cheat again, which does leave me in the upper 90s on the trust scale.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr. Blunt is correct. You have to forcefully push those thoughts away. I can vividly remember when thoughts of my ex wife's betrayal entered my mind I would vigorously shake my head and shout out loud NO NO NO!!! Whether one is trying to detach or trying to reconcile those thoughts that helped protect our emotional state in the immediate aftermath of betrayal instead become poison that hinders healing and rots the soul.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

I don't think forgiveness is a switch, I believe it's something you choose to do each and every day.
You may have days where it's more difficult than others.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

[


> SIZE="3"]Maybe I just need another hobby


A good hobby for me when I was in R for the first several years was that I went to Night College and took the courses that I was interested in. I also looked into my spirituality






> My H continues to uphold his word and I have no reason to believe he will cheat again, which does leave me in the upper 90s on the trust scale.


That is remarkable (upper 90s) for being in R under 2 years. Congratulations Pam![/SIZE]


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

This thread is like a breath of fresh air, thank you for demonstrating what proper discussion between adults looks like. The way that the vast majority of responders have thus far conducted themselves restores some of my faith that rational discussion can actually occur on this forum, even when the discussions touch on such sensitive and profoundly transformative issues.

The use of quotes from well cited and respected sources to support the arguments being presented is especially nice to see, and has actually led to a few people learning some things that they might not have previously been aware of. 

The detailed examination of the potential differences between "forgiveness" and "acceptance," has done a great job highlighting some extremely important concepts that are vital to every persons ability to willfully express their personal agency.

I wanted to throw this out there for discussion. If I removed the word "forgiveness" and the word "acceptance" from the dictionary, would there be a tangible way to discern the difference between a person who has reached the end goal of either of those concepts? 

To elaborate a bit, if you took a person who fully completed the concepts outlined in the definition for "acceptance" and another person who had done the same with "forgiveness" and put them both in a room together (mr blunt/bfree lol) would there be a way to know which one took which path if the words "acceptance" and "forgiveness" were not available to label either of them?


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> [
> 
> A good hobby for me when I was in R for the first several years was that I went to Night College and took the courses that I was interested in. I also looked into my spirituality
> 
> ...



Thanks, but if he weren't doing what he is doing I would not be here yet. 

We had a discussion last night, first time I have brought anything up in a while. Since I have been thinking about the forgiveness thing lately I asked him at dinner (we are recent empty-nesters) if he had ever actually forgiven someone, like purposefully forgiven anyone.

Now , he is a no nonsense conservative kind of guy so I was not surprised when he said, no, not that he could remember. I asked about his Ex-wife (many many years ago he married very young (he was 18 or 19 she was 16/17-pregnant , this whole past became his baggage for many years with me). He said he never really forgave her for her cheating, he just let it go. So, I said, "so, it's more like you accepted it and moved on" Yes, was his answer to that.

So, we talked for a while and he finally asked me why I had asked him that question. I told him I have been thinking about forgiveness, what it means and where I feel I am right now with all this. I asked him if he thought about his affair and he said yes, every day, or so. I was a little surprised as I thought he was going to tell me , no, it's in the past. He says he thinks more about how he hurt me and not the actual OW involved. He apologized again.

This is the only reason we are where we are. If he did not have this perspective and willingness to take the responsibility of it , he would not be here with me. He'd be gone, as I am not leaving my home and life here.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Paladin said:


> This thread is like a breath of fresh air, thank you for demonstrating what proper discussion between adults looks like. The way that the vast majority of responders have thus far conducted themselves restores some of my faith that rational discussion can actually occur on this forum, even when the discussions touch on such sensitive and profoundly transformative issues.
> 
> The use of quotes from well cited and respected sources to support the arguments being presented is especially nice to see, and has actually led to a few people learning some things that they might not have previously been aware of.
> 
> ...



I guess without those two actual words, 'Acceptance' would become something along the line of "Learned to live with it" but what would "Forgiveness" be? Is it "absolved them of their sin/guilt" ? no, I don't think so, it's not really that. How about "Decided not to harbor resentment".. no. 

I am not really sure, but I still think they are different and need their own words. And, if two people in the same room each took a different path in this regard, the only way you could tell was by talking to them for a bit, but I think it would be clear fairly soon.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Paladin said:


> This thread is like a breath of fresh air, thank you for demonstrating what proper discussion between adults looks like. The way that the vast majority of responders have thus far conducted themselves restores some of my faith that rational discussion can actually occur on this forum, even when the discussions touch on such sensitive and profoundly transformative issues.
> 
> The use of quotes from well cited and respected sources to support the arguments being presented is especially nice to see, and has actually led to a few people learning some things that they might not have previously been aware of.
> 
> ...


I've actually had trouble explaining my view of the concept of forgiveness and the differences between forgiveness and acceptance. I think to someone else Mr Blunt's idea and my perception would be almost identical. Currently, I could interact with my ex, hold a pleasant conversation with my ex, even joke and laugh with my ex, but in my heart of hearts I know I have not forgiven her. As I stated I think forgiveness includes some measure of reestablished of a relationship between the betrayed and the betrayer. But the relationship does not have to be external in nature. For instance, if my exW were to send me a letter apologizing for what she did I could find a way to forgive her without rekindling any relationship with her. The refurbishment of the relationship in that case would be in my mind only. I could internally acknowledge our relationship even though it was over and done. So, Paladin unless one was privy to my internal thoughts and feelings I would guess they would assume that I have indeed forgiven my exW. Like Pam I have traveled 99% of the way there but I choose to hold that last bit for myself as payment for her betrayal and subsequent remorseless behavior.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

bfree said:


> but I *choose* to hold that last bit for myself as payment for her betrayal and subsequent remorseless behavior.


This is an important distinction, you are doing that by choice, and that is perfectly fine in my book. I was abstractly wondering if there is any actual difference between the two concepts being discussed, or if in actuality the only difference was semantics. 

You answered my question, there is a difference to you, and that is good enough for me  I would be equally happy if the majority of people were capable of embodying/expressing either one of those two concepts, sadly, I usually find the opposite to be true.

The main point is the ability to let go of toxic thoughts and feelings, especially when they originate due to the behavior of others. So long as either one of the outlets is used (acceptance/forgiveness) the burden of carrying that toxicity is no longer on ones shoulders, and the risk of that toxicity poisoning ones heart/soul subsides.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Paladin*
> I wanted to throw this out there for discussion. If I removed the word "forgiveness" and the word "acceptance" from the dictionary, would there be a tangible way to discern the difference between a person who has reached the end goal of either of those concepts?
> 
> To elaborate a bit, if you took a person who fully completed the concepts outlined in the definition for "acceptance" and another person who had done the same with "forgiveness" and put them both *in a room together (mr blunt/bfree lol) would there be a way to know which one took which path if the words "acceptance" and "forgiveness" were not available to label either of them?*


There would be a way to see which one took which path in the *situation where there was no reconciliation or partial reparation of the relationship*. You can look at the real life experiences of me with Mr. W and Free with his ex-wife to see the one difference. In these cases Bfree has the criteria for forgiveness must include *“a partial reparation of the relationship” and “some measure of reestablished of a relations”*


> *BY Bfree *
> With my ex, but in my heart of hearts I know I have not forgiven her. As I stated I think *forgiveness includes some measure of reestablished of a relationship between the betrayed and the betrayer.*
> 
> 
> ...




*I do not have that criteria.* I have never had any partial reparation or reestablishment of the relationship that I had with Mr. W yet I have no feeling of resentment or vengeance for Mr. W. 






> By Berkeley education web site
> 
> What Is Forgiveness?
> 
> ...



Bfree and I have a lot of the same ways of dealing with betrayal but according to his words and post we do have that one difference when we discuss forgiveness. I am not even sure I understand specifically what Bfree is not completing in the forgiveness criteria above by Berkley. Sounds like to me that Bfree has forgiven his ex-wife because he does not have any resentment or vengeance he is holdings on too. Bfree is a good writer so he can get into more detail about what specific criteria of forgiveness he has not met. It looks like to me that *his words of 
“…in my heart of hearts I know I have not forgiven her”*
are just in words and not his actions. Bfree will correct me if I am wrong about my perception of his not forgiving being in words only and not actions.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

FWIW, I posted this thought a while back in another thread about forgiveness. It's about forgiveness as a form of acceptance, as johnAdams has said.

_I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about forgiveness recently, primarily as a result of conversations with a couple of very good TAM friends. There are many threads here touching on this theme, and I really don’t think we need another, so I’ll try to articulate these thoughts here.

Shirley Glass has a lot of insightful things to say about forgiveness, but mainly in the context of couples who reconcile. Our discussion here on TAM/CWI is broader than that. Forgiveness is a prerequisite for successful reconciliation, but what does it mean to forgive an infidelity even if the infidelity meant the end of the relationship? Most of us can agree that you can forgive without forgetting, so forgiveness must in essence be a change in the way you perceive, relate to or react to those events that you are not forgetting. Some might argue that forgiveness is not so much an active process as it is a gradual transition into indifference, but how does this happen? “Time heals all wounds” doesn’t cut it, as many of us who are still wounded years after the fact can attest.

I think that a financial analogy is apt here: Forgiveness means giving up trying to collect on a debt that can never be repaid. When a partner is unfaithful they rob you of something that cannot be replaced (Cloaked’s thread takes this issue on: What do WS lose from their BS's opinion of them?). My W cannot pay me back the years of her EA when her emotional loyalty was directed elsewhere; Mrs John Adams cannot make restitution for that day with Professor Evil; Granny7’s husband cannot compensate her for 25 years of devastation; Rdmu’s W cannot reimburse him for the sheer horror of her actions; sammy3’s H cannot make amends for his betrayal and the years of emotional limbo he put her through; Tears could not repay her H for that one afternoon of stupidity. Etc. I think forgiveness means reaching a point where you no longer yearn for some form of repayment for the debt of past infidelity. It is a sunk emotional cost. In this sense I agree with those who say that forgiveness is an action taken by the forgiver for his/her own benefit. It is not right or wrong to forgive or not—it is an individual thing. You can love someone without having forgiven them. Those who forgive in the sense I am proposing are not holier than those who don’t. But they are probably happier.

This does not necessarily mean the betrayer is absolved from guilt. It does not mean that the betrayer is starting over with a clean slate of trust (even if you forgive a debt you are going to think twice before lending that person more money). It does not mean that you understand or condone the betrayal. It does not mean that you even want to have anything more to do with the betrayer. And it certainly does not mean that you forget the betrayal and its impact. It means you are no longer going to expend thought and energy on what you feel you are owed by the betrayer.

When my W and I had our long-overdue crisis over her A and assorted other disrespectful (to me) relationships last fall, she said she hoped “somewhere down the road” I could forgive her. I think I have, and JohnAdams was my inspiration. I thought if he could forgive Mrs JA then who am I not to forgive my W? He saved himself 30 years of misery by forgiving. But he hasn’t forgotten, and neither have I. Antennae are up, eyes are open.

Maybe this is all trivially obvious; if so I apologize. But I feel I have made some progress along the road._


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Philat said:


> I think that a financial analogy is apt here: Forgiveness means giving up trying to collect on a debt that can never be repaid. When a partner is unfaithful they rob you of something that cannot be replaced (Cloaked’s thread takes this issue on: What do WS lose from their BS's opinion of them?). My W cannot pay me back the years of her EA when her emotional loyalty was directed elsewhere; Mrs John Adams cannot make restitution for that day with Professor Evil; Granny7’s husband cannot compensate her for 25 years of devastation; Rdmu’s W cannot reimburse him for the sheer horror of her actions; sammy3’s H cannot make amends for his betrayal and the years of emotional limbo he put her through; Tears could not repay her H for that one afternoon of stupidity. Etc. I think forgiveness means reaching a point where you no longer yearn for some form of repayment for the debt of past infidelity. It is a sunk emotional cost. In this sense I agree with those who say that forgiveness is an action taken by the forgiver for his/her own benefit. It is not right or wrong to forgive or not—it is an individual thing.


This right here explains much of what I believe the difference is between acceptance and forgiveness. I would amend the second sentence to read giving up on collecting a debt that cab never be paid "in full." I believe that in order to forgive entirely the betrayer must have remorse and atone for their transgressions. I realize that one can never fully atone for something as egregious as infidelity but a sincere attempt should be made. At the very least the betrayer must sincerely apologize for their actions. Barring that I do not believe full and complete forgiveness can be achieved, at least in my case abd in the cases of many I've worked with. That's why I have not forgiven my exW. It doesn't hold me back. It doesn't affect me negatively. I have moved on.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> There would be a way to see which one took which path in the *situation where there was no reconciliation or partial reparation of the relationship*. You can look at the real life experiences of me with Mr. W and Free with his ex-wife to see the one difference. In these cases Bfree has the criteria for forgiveness must include *“a partial reparation of the relationship” and “some measure of reestablished of a relations”*
> 
> *That reestablishment of the relationship is mostly internal, at least in my case. I cannot and will not open back up to the relationship that once existed in order to strive for some measure of forgiveness. I also believe that forgiveness is not true and complete without the betrayer apologizing at least for the offence.*
> 
> ...


The article you quote gives a very general definition of forgiveness. If I were to apply that definition to what I feel then yes I have forgiven my exW. But in stating that I would be lying. If forgiveness is for the one forgiving then it is an internal mechanism. As such I know internally what I think and feel. I can interact with my exW. I can joke with her. I can smile in her presence. But I do not forgive her. I have given up any thoughts of revenge. I hold no anger or resentment toward her. But...if something bad were to happen to her I would not feel sorry for her. I can't say I'd be pleased at her misfortune but I honestly do not see me reacting with any more emotion than if it had happened to a complete stranger. Furthermore, I must admit that I do feel a slight sense of satisfaction when I see karma taking a bite out of her now ample derriere. After our divorce she never was able to hold a relationship together for any length of time. She gained a lot of weight and aged very badly. Do I feel bad about this? Heck no! So tell me, have I forgiven her?

And as I have stated before I see acceptance as being a close cousin of forgiveness. Dr. Spring takes it a step further by saying that acceptance is a form of forgiveness. In either case both are covered by your definition above. Yet there are differences. In an article by Paula Martin the author talks about the "myth of forgiveness.

_It’s an article of faith that we must forgive, not for the other person, but for ourselves, or so the priests of forgiveness would have us believe. They are no doubt speaking of forgiveness in the Wikipedia sense of the word. Referencing the American Psychological Association (APA)’s ”Forgiveness: A Sampling of Research Results” and a random article on forgiveness that can no longer be accessed through their link, Wikipedia defines forgiveness as “the renunciation or cessation of resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, disagreement, or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.” But as the Wikipedia entry also points out, the Oxford English Dictionary defines forgiveness like this: “to grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offense or debt.” Forgiveness in that sense can be destructive for the person who, in forgiving acts that are not forgivable, committed by people who refuse to accept responsibility for their acts, denies the validity of their own suffering and the fact that they deserved better than they got. For these people, it might be a relief to know that forgiveness is not a necessary tool in attaining wholeness and that acceptance may be a better way to go._

The author concludes her article with _The truth, the truth none of us wants to face, is that lost things are lost. It’s a lesson we learn when we lose someone essential to death. In our dark hour of grief, all that remains is to accept. It is acceptance, not forgiveness, that sets us free._

Mrs. Martin also references another article by Emily Yoffe in which Yoffe writes:

_“Loved ones and friends—sometimes even therapists—who urge reconnecting with a parent often speak as if forgiveness will be a psychic aloe vera, a balm that will heal the wounds of the past. They warn of the guilt that will dog the victim if the perpetrator dies estranged. What these people fail to take into account is the potential psychological cost of reconnecting, of dredging up painful memories and reviving destructive patterns… “In a 2008 essay in the journal In Character,” Yoffe continues, “history professor Wilfred McClay writes that as a society we have twisted the meaning of forgiveness into a therapeutic act for the victim: ‘[F]orgiveness is in danger of being debased into a kind of cheap grace, a waiving of standards of justice without which such transactions have no meaning.’ [and] Jean Bethke Elshtain, a professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School writes that, ‘There is a watered-down but widespread form of ‘forgiveness’ best tagged preemptory or exculpatory forgiveness.That is, without any indication of regret or remorse from perpetrators of even the most heinous crimes, we are enjoined by many not to harden our hearts but rather to ‘forgive.’” Yoffe writes, “I agree with these more bracing views about what forgiveness should entail. Choosing not to forgive does not doom someone to being mired in the past forever. Accepting what happened and moving on is a good general principle.”_

I have no desire to grant cheap forgiveness nor do I relish dredging up past pain and destructive memories. I am perfectly comfortable with how I have accepted the past and moved on.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Bfree*
> I cannot and will not open back up to the relationship that once existed in order to strive for some measure of forgiveness


Bfree, you are stating “…open back up to the relationship…’ as if we disagree on that. WE AGREE ON THAT! I am not asking you to open back up to your relationship with your wife.







> *By Bfree*
> With all due respect your relationship with Mr. W was cursory and intermittent at best. As egregious as his behavior was toward you and as much stress and lost sleep you may have suffered it does not compare in the least to the betrayal of one spouse toward another. Since the two relationships existed on different levels you must acknowledge that forgiveness in each case will also come with some differentiation. Mr. W's actions toward you were terrible, my ex wife's betrayal cut me to the bone



You are correct Bfree, my situation with Mr. W and your situation with your Ex-wife are different. Your emotional attachment to your wife was deeper than mine was to Mr. W. However, my guess would be that the harm intended by Mr. W. was as intense if not more so than your wife. Mr. W wanted to annihilate me! He went for the juggler many times. First with my Board of Directors, then a government agency, then the Inspector general’s office, when all that failed he used a private attorney. His goal was to have me fired and prosecuted for a felony offence which would have me put in prison for years! If he succeeded he would have probable ruined my whole life or at least half my life. So your pain was more emotional and mine was more potentially physically harmful. Your wife hurt you to the bone but you have rebounded and you have not lost half your life. I did not lose half my life but the intention by Mr. W was without doubt and very determined to destroy me. *Bfree did your wife make diligently efforts 4 times with powerful authorities to destroy you?*

Having said the above I will concede that your emotions were probably raped and ravaged more than mine simply because you were more emotionally involved with your wife.






> From The myth of Forgiveness
> “to grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offense or debt.” Forgiveness in that sense can be destructive for the person who, in forgiving acts that are not forgivable, committed by people who refuse to accept responsibility for their acts, *denies the validity of their own suffering and the fact that they deserved better than they got*


With all due respect t you Bfree, I do not buy the bold part above.


IF a person denies the validity of their own suffering and the fact that they deserved better then that is an emotional and psychological error by the forgiver that tarnishes real forgiveness. By the forgiver using such physiological manipulations in order to get relief and forgive is a HUGE mistake that will hurt the forgiver.


I most certainly DO NOT deny the validity of my own suffering or the fact that I deserved better.








> Forgiveness in that sense can be destructive for the person who, in forgiving acts that is not forgivable, committed by *people who refuse to accept responsibility for their acts*


I have mentioned before that because the offender refuses to accept responsibility DOES NOT NEGATE forgiveness. There will be many times that the offender will not accept responsibility but that does not mean that you cannot forgive. If we waited until the person took responsibility we may have to wait our whole life and then die without getting some of our emotions better.





*



It is acceptance, not forgiveness, that sets us free.

Click to expand...

*
NOPE!
It is acceptance *PLUS* forgiveness that sets us free. I do not know why the author of that article wants to put acceptance against forgiveness. As you have stated “Forgiveness and acceptance are close cousins”








> Posted by Bfree
> … “In a 2008 essay in the journal In Character,” *Yoffe* continues, “history professor Wilfred McClay writes that as a society we have twisted the meaning of forgiveness into a therapeutic act for the victim: *‘[F]orgiveness is in danger of being debased into a kind of cheap grace, a waiving of standards of justice without which such transactions have no meaning.’*


*Bfree, forgiveness has almost nothing to do with justice!* In the Christian sense of forgiveness, grace is the ultimate goal not justice. Bfree, I gave references from the Mayo Clinic and Berkeley University and you are quoting Emily Yoffe and Yoffe takes a very defferent view of forgiveness than the Mayo Clinc and/or the Berkeley University. My guess would be that Yoffe does not use as many sources and does not have the medical and Psychological credibility that the Mayo Clinic does.





Because you used Paula Martin and Yoffe as a reference I looked up Emily Yoffe and Paula Martin and here is what I found so far




> The myth of forgiveness
> 1.	*Paula Martin* - *Romance Author*: Latest News
> paulamartinromances.webs.com/
> ‎
> ...



*Your references seem to be a Romance Novelist (Paula Martin) and a journalist (Emily Yoffe) . I think I will stick to my references of the Mayo Clinic and the Berkeley University*.


Bfree, because of your words below I am not trying to change your mind but this is a discussion where we can all post our thoughts and references. Therefore, I will present my points and references and let the reader decide.


Bfree, I have no doubt that you have recovered very nicely because you contribute to this TAM forum in a positive manner. I am sure you have helped some people.



> By Bfree
> I have no desire to grant cheap forgiveness nor do I relish dredging up past pain and destructive memories. I am perfectly comfortable with how I have accepted the past and moved on


. 


My definition of forgiveness does not grant cheap forgiveness nor does it dredge up past pain and destructive memories. I really think that you are including reconciliation to some degree in your definition of forgiveness but you are perfectly comfortable with your definition and I am perfectly comfortable with mine.

Bfree, I enjoy our discussion, thanks for your contributions. Hope we keep learning as we discuss.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Bfree, you are stating “…open back up to the relationship…’ as if we disagree on that. WE AGREE ON THAT! I am not asking you to open back up to your relationship with your wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll end with this. My point was not that Paula Martin and Emily Yoffe are experts in infidelity and/or forgiveness. Dr. Spring fulfills that role rather nicely. My point was that other people have other viewpoints and it works just as well for them. Forgiveness is not the beat all end all that it sometimes is made out to be. There is another path that reaches the same destination.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Bfree and Mr.Blunt,
Do either of you feel there is a time-line for forgivness?
Should it happening in - amount of months or years?
I fogave my wife because of her remorse,actions and deed but
it seemed to take me over two years to get to the point where I finally totally
did forgive her.
A year after the affair I felt I was sure that I'd forgiven her only to realize a few
weeks later that I had not.
Now I'm at a place where I know I have but once in awhile I find myself upseg for
what she put us through,these moments don't last long and are rare.
Get where I'm coming from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

I cant speak for Bfree or Blunt, but in my opinion, there is no time limit on forgiveness/acceptance. The actual length of time it takes a person to get there will vary depending on the circumstances, but more importantly, the amount of work a person puts in to actively getting to that point. Individual counseling, when approached seriously, can significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to achieve these goals.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Calvin*
> BFree and Mr.Blunt,
> Do either of you feel there is a time-line for forgivness?
> Should it happening in - amount of months or years?
> ...




Calvin
As Paladin said there is no time limit. However, and this is just my opinion, the sooner you decide to forgive the better. I think if you stew in your emotional upset for years then it tends to make it harder to forgive. You can build up quite a rational case as to how much injustice was done to you in a few years. The sooner you start forgiving, the sooner you have more ability to stop thinking about how unjust you were treated. *As I have said before, justice is not the main ingredient in forgiveness.*






> By Calvin
> Now I'm at a place where I know I have but once in awhile I find myself upset for
> what she put us through, these moments don't last long and are rare.
> Get where I'm coming from?



Yes, I get where you are coming from Calvin.
Thinking about the hurt that your wife put you through is probably going to bring up some pain even if you have forgiven her. Forgiveness does not mean that you totally forget or that the remembrance of the action will not bring about pain. The key is to put those thoughts out of your mind as quickly as possible. I know those thoughts are going to come but with discipline you can blot them out quickly. *It helped me to ask myself, what good will comes to me if I harbor those thoughts?*




> By Mayo Clinic
> Forgiveness: Letting go of grudges and bitterness - Mayo Clinic
> 
> What is forgiveness?
> Generally, forgiveness is a decision to let go of resentment and thoughts of revenge. *The act that hurt or offended you might always remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life.*




Actually Calvin, if I never came to TAM I would probably never think of my pain. Even by me coming to TAM the pain is very pain-lite and sometimes no pain at all. Remember that I have over 25 years of R and I could not say what I just said if it was just two years past the D-day act.




> By Paladin
> “The actual length of time it takes a person to get there will vary depending on the circumstances, but more importantly, the amount of work a person puts in to actively getting to that pain”


*That is very true.*


Calvin, I have read some of your posts and in some of those posts you are listening to the WS or BS and giving them your experience and positive advice in order to relief them and help them. To me that is a sign that you often choose to focus on the positive rather than show signs of grudges and bitterness. In other words those are signs of forgiveness.


One tip that maybe something that you would consider is this. If you are having too many episodes of being upset by the memories of the wrong done to you, you may want to consider not reading so many stories about betrayal. In other words back off or take a break from TAM. A good example of that is B1. He has backed off TAM and he seems to be way ahead on R for just having 2 years in R.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Calvin
> As Paladin said there is no time limit. However, and this is just my opinion, the sooner you decide to forgive the better. I think if you stew in your emotional upset for years then it tends to make it harder to forgive. You can build up quite a rational case as to how much injustice was done to you in a few years. The sooner you start forgiving, the sooner you have more ability to stop thinking about how unjust you were treated. *As I have said before, justice is not the main ingredient in forgiveness.*
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect. Couldn't agree more.

Calvin, forgiveness is not a switch. Its a gradual healing that takes place. There is no time limit. 5 months or 5 years doesn't matter. Its the destination that matters, not the road taken or how long it took. In one of my earlier posts I talked about how I literally shook my head and yelled NO NO NO whenever my exW's betrayal enter my consciousness. That was no bull. Its exactly what I did. Those thoughts are going to creep in. It's only natural. How you deal with them is the key.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Paladin said:


> I cant speak for Bfree or Blunt, but in my opinion, there is no time limit on forgiveness/acceptance. The actual length of time it takes a person to get there will vary depending on the circumstances, but more importantly, the amount of work a person puts in to actively getting to that point. Individual counseling, when approached seriously, can significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to achieve these goals.


 I'm back in IC again Paladin and it has helped.
You're right,fogivness depends on the person,the depth of the hurt and other factors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Bfree and Mr.Blunt...very well put,especially you Mr.Blunt.
You both are obviously wise men,pretty damn smart,that's why I seek out your advice.
God knows I've bugged bfree many times and he was pretty much right on every time with his advice.
I don't go to other threads anymore,especially the ones where someone is still fresh
from the pain,it just makes me sad.
I guess I'm trying to gauge myself on the forgiveness scale and I think I'm pretty much there.
I'm there because of how CSS acted and what she did and continues to do to help us.
The irony is still there but not bad at all.
Its been interesting reading both of your opinions on forgiveness and I feel I have taken
away quite a bit of knowledge from you both.
Everything seems like a sure bet to me,even though there is nothing as a sure bet.
Its hard to forgive is it not? It seems to depend on how sorry and remorseful the offender
is and I'm not just talking about CSS.
Mr.Blunt seems to think forgiveness is possible without the offender having zero remorse.
I think I get what he's saying but I feel its easier when the offender does feel bad about
what they did as bfree has implied.
I'm sure I have forgave...pretty much...almost 100%.
I think there is no thing as 100% trust anymore but 100% forgiving is very possible.
Thanks men,I wish I was as smart as you two.....your both pretty damn wise.
BTW....me and CSS are doing very well.
I want to be with her and I know she with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Acceptance I CAN'T do, because no matter what, I CANNOT and WILL not accept what was done to me was RIGHT. It will never be so, for ever and a day, the act itself was wrong.

Forgiveness I CAN do, because we are all frail human beings who stuff up and make mistakes for whatever reasons from our past, genetic make up, star sign we were born under blah, blah ad infinitum, "caused" it.

I've totally and successfully separated the act from the person and this I believe is why my H and I are in a good, but hardworking R. 

It's also why I have been able to forgive my father for sexually assaulting me throughout my childhood, even though he is now dead and he apparently thought there was nothing wrong in doing what he did to me, and for my mother who didn't protect me and thought that was okay too. 

I cry as much for THEIR human weakness and failings as I did for what was done to me. I still love them for their humanness and frailty, still have compassion for their own historical, familial patterns and sufferings and I always will. 

THAT is forgiveness, but what they DID to me will absolutely NEVER be worthy of "acceptance".


----------



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't accept it,I acknowledge it,I can't forget it but I have more important things
on my mind.
I can forgive but for me it does depend on how the betrayer makes amends.
For those who have little or zero remorse....well,I have a problem with that.
Hopefully one day I won't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Calvin*
> Mr.Blunt seems to think forgiveness is possible without the offender having zero remorse.
> I think I get what he's saying but I feel its easier when the offender does feel bad about what they did as bfree has implied


.


You are right Calvin it is easier to forgive when the offender does feel bad. 

What do you do when the offender does not feel bad and there is no chance of reconciliation? That was the case in the woman whose father molested her and then never showed any remorse, then he died. *There are lots of cases of no remorse; are we not to forgive?*







> By Calvin
> BTW....me and CSS are doing very well.
> I want to be with her and I know she with me


.


That tells me a lot about you and CSS! 
Congratulations you two!!!


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Betrayedagain7*
> Acceptance I CAN'T do, because no matter what, I CANNOT and WILL not accept what was done to me was RIGHT. It will never be so, for ever and a day, the act itself was wrong.
> 
> Forgiveness I CAN do, because we are all frail human beings who stuff up and make mistakes for whatever reasons from our past, genetic make up, star sign we were born under blah, blah ad infinitum, "caused" it.
> ...



In my post number 32 several days ago I mentioned a real life situation where a woman was molested by her father and he never showed any remorse.

I just want to clarify that the woman that I was talking about in my post 32 and the woman in my post 85 is not 
Betrayedagain7. I do not want anyone to think that I ousted Betrayedagain7

*Betrayedagain7, I have the upmost admiration for you as you are a very brave and strong woman*. What I did by forgiving Mr. W was one example but your real life experience is so very powerful and goes much further than forgiveness. *You have gone past the basic act of forgiveness and have embraced empathy and compassion for the offenders!*


My wife rejected and replaced me with another man but your pain is deeper. *I am in awe of you and think that you are such a great example of great forgiveness and for even going past the basics of forgiveness and into empathy and compassion for the ones that hurt you so bad.*

God bless you my dear!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Mr. Blunt is correct. You have to forcefully push those thoughts away. I can vividly remember when thoughts of my ex wife's betrayal entered my mind I would vigorously shake my head and shout out loud NO NO NO!!! Whether one is trying to detach or trying to reconcile those thoughts that helped protect our emotional state in the immediate aftermath of betrayal instead become poison that hinders healing and rots the soul.


Sorry , guys, but I think this is wrong. The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time. If you do this with reason and patience, eventually these thoughts will lose their sting. You can never keep them completely out of your head anyway, so why give yourself fits trying to keep them at bay? Refusing to face these thoughts won't make anything any easier or more lasting, and are only expressions of fear and weakness. Face the issues head on, and they will undoubtedly lose their force, and consequently, their power to hurt.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Forgiving can bring peace of mind.
For me it has to be under the right circumstances.
If the betrayer shows no remorse it means there is no self accountability.
I get what Blunt says but if you wrong me in a very bad way and you're a decent person
you will have real remorse that I can see,taste and feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> In my post number 32 several days ago I mentioned a real life situation where a woman was molested by her father and he never showed any remorse.
> 
> I just want to clarify that the woman that I was talking about in my post 32 and the woman in my post 85 is not
> Betrayedagain7. I do not want anyone to think that I ousted Betrayedagain7
> ...


Thank you so much Mr. Blunt for your post. 

The courage to forgive didn't come easy though and I was a very, very unhappy and destructive person for a long time. Very close to death actually. I had to reach some kind of a crossroads in my life to get to that point. The crossroads pointed to; 

DEATH = Unforgiveness-(Towards myself primarily and then towards my loved ones and others outside of my circle)

LIFE = Forgiveness (To work on myself to the point that I could forgive).

I chose Life. I didn't want to die, I had kids and grandkids that I wanted to love and cherish, a husband that I loved and an amazing and incredible life to live.

I still have a ways to go. For instance I can forgive those close to me that offended me in some way, but I have a still have huge problem regarding those that I don't have an emotional connection too. So I still have a lot of work to do. 

Actually you sound pretty special yourself to have forgiven the POSOM. You must have an amazing strength inside you that has precipitated itself forward to enable you to do that. 

In gratitude for your kind words


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Thank you so much for your complements BetrayedAgain7.

I have no vengeance or resentments against the POSOM nor do I have any love for him. He is just another weak person that sacrificed his character and the respect of his children to try and please his selfish desires.


I did this pretty much for the reasons that you did. I wanted to live, enjoy life, and enjoy my wife, children, and grandchildren.
I aslo believed that if I did the right thing then eventually I would be rewarded.

I am so glad that you have chosen to live and are enjoying your life, husband, children, and grandchildren. I think that you have a lot to offer people that have been devastated by those that have betrayed them

I could trust someone like you that has been through the fire and proved that you could do one of the most difficult things to do in this life; you forgave the seemly unforgivable!! As you know trust is a very valuable attribute to have especially when you have been betrayed in such as horrible way.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , guys, but I think this is wrong. The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time. If you do this with reason and patience, eventually these thoughts will lose their sting. You can never keep them completely out of your head anyway, so why give yourself fits trying to keep them at bay? Refusing to face these thoughts won't make anything any easier or more lasting, and are only expressions of fear and weakness. Face the issues head on, and they will undoubtedly lose their force, and consequently, their power to hurt.


Actively modifying how one reacts to intrusive, circular, and unwanted thoughts can take on many forms. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) can be a very useful tool for doing work that requires a person to change the way they think about something. CBT has lots of variations that allow people to achieve the goal of freeing themselves from intrusive/unwanted thoughts. The idea is to find what works best for you and stick with it. 

Shaking your head and saying "no," may be just as effective, or even more some, than the "exposure therapy" you allude to in your post. The hope is that he is not shaking his head in order to run away from those thoughts, but simply doing so to avoid being overwhelmed by them at that moment.

I think we can both agree that denial and not resolving the issues is not an effective approach, but I don't think anyone is actually advocating that in this thread.


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## Regret214 (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm gonna post and run for obvious reasons...

What Regret did to most everyone who takes a breath, is and should be unforgivable. I get that. Trust me, I've lived it for over 2 years. I can't put into perfect words or as eloquent as the thread owners, but I can say this: Forgiveness is totally up to the BS. It's totally about the BS. It is totally controlled by the BS.

At no point f'ng ever, is a wayward allowed to demand...hell, even ask depending on the sh-t storm endured, for forgiveness. Just the fact that a BS is gonna try to work things out is a f'ng gift enough for a wayward. Don't push yer luck!!

Ok. Drive by success. I'm going to take my former wayward out on the town for a few hours cuz I've worked my ass off to forgive her, but she's worked her ass off to prove herself.

Peace peeps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Paladin said:


> Actively modifying how one reacts to intrusive, circular, and unwanted thoughts can take on many forms. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) can be a very useful tool for doing work that requires a person to change the way they think about something. CBT has lots of variations that allow people to achieve the goal of freeing themselves from intrusive/unwanted thoughts. The idea is to find what works best for you and stick with it.
> 
> Shaking your head and saying "no," may be just as effective, or even more some, than the "exposure therapy" you allude to in your post. The hope is that he is not shaking his head in order to run away from those thoughts, but simply doing so to avoid being overwhelmed by them at that moment.
> 
> I think we can both agree that denial and not resolving the issues is not an effective approach, but I don't think anyone is actually advocating that in this thread.


I'm my case there was no reconciliation. All there was to do was detach. Thinking about what she did and dwelling on it almost destroyed me. Once I climbed out of the pit of despair I had allowed myself to fall into I purposely pushed those destructive thoughts away since there was no effective way of redressing them. I am all for bringing things out in the open and dealing with them but if there is no solution then those thoughts themselves are the problem.


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *Originally Posted by bfree *
> Mr. Blunt is correct. You have to forcefully push those thoughts away. I can vividly remember when thoughts of my ex wife's betrayal entered my mind I would vigorously shake my head and shout out loud NO NO NO!!! Whether one is trying to detach or trying to reconcile those thoughts that helped protect our emotional state in the immediate aftermath of betrayal instead become poison that hinders healing and rots the soul.
> 
> 
> ...







> *By Rookie*
> Refusing to face these thoughts won't make anything any easier or more lasting, and are only expressions of fear and weakness



Refusing to face the thoughts is not always expressions of fear and weakness. I refused to do what you recommended reprinted below and I have many years of successful R.



> *By Rookie*
> The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time.






Rookie, if you are successful with your D and your method worked for you then that is fine. However,* you do not give credit for others that use methods that have worked for them and then you judge them as fearful and weak.* I have over 25 years of R and I did the opposite of what you deemed as the right way for everyone. Bfree is doing just fine without doing it your way. 



You judging me as fearful and weak seems to indicate that you are narrow minded about these issues. Besides how would you know much about long term Reconciliation as you did not reconcile? I am not saying that you should have R that is your call. *What I am saying is that you have little credibility in determining how some one should reconcile.*


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I haven't read this thread yet. I do want to thank you two for discussing forgiveness openly. I have not forgiven, and doubt I ever will. 

Unfortunately, I believe I am fallible, since I am human. Some things can be forgiven and some cannot. We all have our things that we cannot forgive. Those vary as the individual.

This doesn't mean I don't believe in the forgiving power of God. It does mean that I will have to rely on God to forgive me, since I cannot.

I will read this thread at some time. I will not be on for a while, so please do not delete it. I know I can be convinced of changing my mind. It just depends on making a great argument against what I have thought and believed for so long.

I did see the word, "acceptance", above. I did not read the whole post. That's a word that means to me that I have given up trying to change things, because I know I never will. It also means I will not try to change myself. I'm not sure I care for that word. I do know it is a necessity for sanity when understanding will not come, or the necessary information will never be known. 

It can mean an acceptance that things will not get any better. It is a sad word for me. I don't like to think there is no choice. Choices bring opportunities for happiness. The more choices we have, the greater number of chances for happiness.

That can go against religious beliefs and many other hard won beliefs, when you really think about it. Choice can mean infidelity for the sake of sanity, and...happiness. 

Forgiveness...maybe best left to the Lord? I am not sure yet. Love to read your posts, Mr. Blunt and bfree. Thank you both, in advance.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Refusing to face the thoughts is not always expressions of fear and weakness. I refused to do what you recommended reprinted below and I have many years of successful R.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. Avoiding "bad" thoughts is indeed motivated by fear and weakness. The brave and strong OVERCOME their issues, they don't avoid them 2. I have just as much credibility about reconciliation as any other poster, because my ex wife and I have successfully reconciled. Our respect and affection for each other has increased and the aftermath of the affair is over. Our reconciliation did not include remaining married, but that does not make it any less viable. Are you saying that the only true reconciliations are those who continue the marriage? If so, who is the one being narrow minded? 
Blunt, you are a good poster, but this post is not one of your usually thoughtful ones.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Regret214 said:


> I'm gonna post and run for obvious reasons...
> 
> What Regret did to most everyone who takes a breath, is and should be unforgivable. I get that. Trust me, I've lived it for over 2 years. I can't put into perfect words or as eloquent as the thread owners, but I can say this: Forgiveness is totally up to the BS. It's totally about the BS. It is totally controlled by the BS.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Anyone is allowed to ask for forgiveness, if sincerely motivated.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> 1. Avoiding "bad" thoughts is indeed motivated by fear and weakness. The brave and strong OVERCOME their issues, they don't avoid them 2. I have just as much credibility about reconciliation as any other poster, because my ex wife and I have successfully reconciled. Our respect and affection for each other has increased and the aftermath of the affair is over. Our reconciliation did not include remaining married, but that does not make it any less viable. Are you saying that the only true reconciliations are those who continue the marriage? If so, who is the one being narrow minded?
> Blunt, you are a good poster, but this post is not one of your usually thoughtful ones.


Rookie, in my situation specifically how else would you have suggested I handle "bad" thoughts? There was really no way to overcome these issues since she was remorseless and dwelling on them just continually put me in a bad place. By dismissing these thoughts and working to accept what happened with no chance of resolution I was able to move on and start living my life. Would you have gone in another direction?

2ntnuf, acceptance does not mean you are ok with what happened. It means you acknowledge it did happen and there is no way to change it. Acceptance does not mean that things can't get better. On the contrary, it allows you to drop that baggage by the side of the road so that you can begin to work on changing things you actually have control over. Acceptance means you cannot change yesterday but you can live well today and plan for a better tomorrow.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Rookie, in my situation specifically how else would you have suggested I handle "bad" thoughts? There was really no way to overcome these issues since she was remorseless and dwelling on them just continually put me in a bad place. By dismissing these thoughts and working to accept what happened with no chance of resolution I was able to move on and start living my life. Would you have gone in another direction?
> 
> 2ntnuf, acceptance does not mean you are ok with what happened. It means you acknowledge it did happen and there is no way to change it. Acceptance does not mean that things can't get better. On the contrary, it allows you to drop that baggage by the side of the road so that you can begin to work on changing things you actually have control over. Acceptance means you cannot change yesterday but you can live well today and plan for a better tomorrow.


You are looking at the wrong end of the stick, Bfree. You were able to dismiss those thoughts BECAUSE you worked towards accepting what had happened, and that resolving those issues could not come from within the marriage structure.
Facing up to problems removes the intimidation factor.
Old joke. Man go to the doctor, and says , "Doc, it hurts when I do this". Doc says, "then don't do that". 
In all of this, it is a POSITIVE ACTION that resolves the issue, not avoidance.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Rookie*
> Are you saying that the only true reconciliations are those who continue the marriage? If so, who is the one being narrow minded?



*You are being narrowed minded because you set yourself up as the judge of how everyone should reconcile. You state that everyone should do as you judge and we should all think of the worst things in the betrayal; if we do not listen to you then we are "weak and fearful". You do not give credit to other ways and stated they are “wrong”*

You divorced around a year ago then you have reconciled your relationship with your wife. I understand that there are at least two ways to reconcile. There are those that reconcile and remain married then there are those like you that Divorce then reconcile the relationship. The two types of reconciliations is not the main issue that I posted about. The main issues are that you say our way is wrong and that it is based on fear and weakness.

You have around 1-2 years of reconciliation and your method worked for you.
I have over 25 years of R and my method (opposite of what you say) and my method worked for me.


Bottom Line:
*I give you credit for your method working for you but you go on saying that my method is “wrong” and based on “fear” and “weakness.”*

I got my 25 years+ of successful R without your method so I know that your way is not the only way. 

You remind me of the Rookie in sports that tries to tell the 25 year successful veteran that the veteran’s way is wrong.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

My R is going pretty well.
As a steelworker with long hours I know I am not weak or afraid,been on my own
Since I was 16.
My wifes A went extreamly light PA...kisses,no tongue but the EA was deep on her side,
the loser was just trying to get a piece of ass,remember they were high school bf and gf.
They didn't have sex back then.
I know I made the right decision based on how my wife has atoned (and still is)
for what she did,she actually gets what she put me through.
Infidelity is hell for the BS,I mean that literally.
R is not for the weak,it takes a lot of work but the WS really has to see the "light".
Mine did,just as some others here have.
A BS who see's fit to give their spouse one chance is not weak or afraid in a lot of
cases.
Some are,that's for sure.
Everyones situation is the same yet different Rookie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

On narrow minded.
I never go into anything without a plan and a back up plan also.
I take time to look at everything.....everything.
Mine came very close to being a deal breaker but I took time and did not jump
at my feeling that dogged me for two years.
I'm glad I did what I did.
R and forgivness go hand in hand to me but no matter what it is a gamble.
No regrets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *You are being narrowed minded because you set yourself up as the judge of how everyone should reconcile. You state that everyone should do as you judge and we should all think of the worst things in the betrayal; if we do not listen to you then we are "weak and fearful". You do not give credit to other ways and stated they are “wrong”*
> 
> You divorced around a year ago then you have reconciled your relationship with your wife. I understand that there are at least two ways to reconcile. There are those that reconcile and remain married then there are those like you that Divorce then reconcile the relationship. The two types of reconciliations is not the main issue that I posted about. The main issues are that you say our way is wrong and that it is based on fear and weakness.
> 
> ...


You are full of it. Never, in any of my posts have I offered my situation as the model of reconciliation, nor did I ever state that my way was the ONLY way. If you believe this, it is only in your mind. So.... show me where I stated that my way was the only correct way, or admit you made a mistake.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, if you are going to use my situation as a basis for your rant, at least get your facts straight. 
I divorced my ex wife immediately after the affair, then had little or no contact with her for 2 1/2 years, then attempted to reconnect romantically and decided that the spark was not there anymore. We currently have an excellent friendship and very positive co-parenting relationship.
I do not know what has happened to you, you used to be a better poster than this.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Oh boy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> You are full of it. Never, in any of my posts have I offered my situation as the model of reconciliation, nor did I ever state that my way was the ONLY way. If you believe this, it is only in your mind. So.... show me where I stated that my way was the only correct way, or admit you made a mistake.






> *By Rookie*
> “…show me where I stated that my way was the only correct way, or admit you made a mistake”




Rookie in your own words below you state that our way is “WRONG” then you give your way (Underlined words below) then say our way “ *are only expressions of fear and weakness."* You do not give credit to other ways and stated they are “wrong” 




> *By Rookie*
> Sorry , guys, but I think *this is wrong*. The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time. If you do this with reason and patience, eventually these thoughts will lose their sting. You can never keep them completely out of your head anyway, so why give yourself fits trying to keep them at bay? Refusing to face these thoughts won't make anything any easier or more lasting, and *are only expressions of fear and weakness*. Face the issues head on, and they will undoubtedly lose their force, and consequently, their power to hurt.



Do you still think that I am *"full of it"*?


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Rookie*
> BTW, if you are going to use my situation as a basis for your rant, at least get your facts straight.
> I divorced my ex wife immediately after the affair, then had little or no contact with her for 2 1/2 years, then attempted to reconnect romantically and decided that the spark was not there anymore. We currently have an excellent friendship and very positive co-parenting relationship.
> I do not know what has happened to you, you used to be a better poster than this.




Ok so my estimate was off by 6 months, I will change my guess from 1-2 years to 2-3 years. That 2-3 years is not the issue nor the basis for my statement about you below:

*



I give you credit for your method working for you but you go on saying that my method is “wrong” and based on “fear” and “weakness.”

Click to expand...

*
This statement above was not a "rant" of mine and does not make your statements about judging my method as based on “Fear and Weakness” more credible. Adding your judgment of my statement as a “Rant” does not diminish the fact that I used your own very words as my basis for my post.

*Do you still hold the position that my way is wrong and based on Fear and weakness?*


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Mr. Blunt is still an excellent poster Rookie,the man knows his stuff compared to us
newbies,his advice is sound 99.5% of the time as is bfree's advice.
You still hurt Rookie,there is no right way to do R.
Each person has to figure out what's right for them when something like this happens.
You tried after divorcing Rookie,I commend you for that,some would not try.
I can still assure you taking a chance and trying R with you WS is not a sign of weakness
nor is it being afraid.
For me it all depends on what my wife has done to make to make it right,she has
worked her tail off.
You still hurt man,I understand that,it was'nt your fault,you did'nt deserve what happend.
It's how we as a BS respond,the only right way is how a BS decides to respond,
a BS holds most of the cards in this crap.
What works for you may not work for another,same with me.
Hope you are feeling better bro.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

calvin said:


> Mr. Blunt is still an excellent poster Rookie,the man knows his stuff compared to us
> newbies,his advice is sound 99.5% of the time as is bfree's advice.
> You still hurt Rookie,there is no right way to do R.
> Each person has to figure out what's right for them when something like this happens.
> ...


Cal, you're a good guy, but that isn't the issue here. The issue is whether or not to avoid unpleasant thoughts.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Cal, you're a good guy, but that isn't the issue here. The issue is whether or not to avoid unpleasant thoughts.


 I get that.
I force them out,I've already accepted what is,nothing I can do to change it,
Nor CSS.
We can go forward...my choice,or stay stuck in the mud spinning my wheels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

There is something that's not letting you move on.
R didn't do it and D'ing did'nt do it.
That's something you'll have to fugure out.
I wish you luck bro.
You'll figure out what you need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Rookie*
> Is English not your first language? I did say that avoidance is wrong, yes. But I did NOT say my way was the only way, did I? Trying to blame me for your misinterpretation is lame.


You are right Rookie you did not say that your way was the only way. What you said is what my last post qoted you as saying:



> Rookie in your own words below you state that our way is “WRONG” then you give your way (Underlined words below) then say our way “ are only expressions of fear and weakness." You do not give credit to other ways and stated they are “wrong”
> 
> By Rookie
> 
> Sorry , guys, but I think this is *wrong*. The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time. If you do this with reason and patience, eventually these thoughts will lose their sting. You can never keep them completely out of your head anyway, so why give yourself fits trying to keep them at bay? Refusing to face these thoughts won't make anything any easier or more lasting, and *are only expressions of fear and weakness*. Face the issues head on, and they will undoubtedly lose their force, and consequently, their power to hurt.



Rookie

*Why can’t you accept that your way worked for you and our way will also work?

That would be easier than judging our way as wrong and “…only expressions of Fear and weakness” would it not?*

If not then we had better just agree to disagree, what do you say?


You seem to be getting so offended that you are using statements such as:
*You are full of it
Your rant
Is English not your first language?
your misinterpretation is lame*

*How about we get back to posting ways to help understand forgiveness?*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> You are right Rookie you did not say that your way was the only way. What you said is what my last post qoted you as saying:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, and calling me narrow minded is okay? If you want a truce, sokay by me, but if you don't want me to defend..... don't attack.
I am perfectly willing to listen to reason, but not to be accused.
As far as forgiveness goes, how can you forgive and practice avoidance at the same time? If you avoid bad thoughts, then how do you know what to forgive? See what I'm saying? How can you treat an illness, if you don't think about it? This sounds like rug sweeping. I think it would be better to know all of the symptoms, before I try to cure the illness. Don't you?
In reconciliation, the idea is to "clean the slate" so that by hard work, understanding and communication, you can view the past affair as exactly that, something bad that happened in the past. By doing this, you can lessen the power of these bad thoughts to hurt you and work on a new , future relationship, whatever it might be.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Well in my case I'm not forgiving and that's by choice. And that has worked out very well for me. Of course I didn't reconcile and do not desire any type of relationship with my ex. As far the affair thoughts are concerned. I dealt with them as best I could given the circumstances. I prefer to see it not as avoiding but a refusal to dwell on the negative thoughts after they had already been fleshed out and put to rest.

This is not directed at any one in particular. I just wanted to make the distinction between avoidance and refusal to rehash old hurts.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

bfree said:


> Well in my case I'm not forgiving and that's by choice. And that has worked out very well for me. Of course I didn't reconcile and do not desire any type of relationship with my ex. As far the affair thoughts are concerned. I dealt with them as best I could given the circumstances. I prefer to see it not as avoiding but a refusal to dwell on the negative thoughts after they had already been fleshed out and put to rest.
> 
> This is not directed at any one in particular. I just wanted to make the distinction between avoidance and refusal to rehash old hurts.


I can see your point, Bfree. But would ask you if the affair thoughts hurt you as much, AFTER you decided to do something positive, as they did before. It seems that those people who work from a positive perspective (regardless of whether they R or D) seem to suffer less than those who attempt to avoid "evil" thoughts and conflicts, and seem to have better post-affair lives.
I know that in my own case, once I had accumulated all of the info I was going to get, and had thought about all of the betrayal and sexual aspects, and finally reached my decision to divorce, it was like the weight of the world had been taken off my shoulders. And had the added bonus that I could forgive my ex, with a clear head and heart. I'm a very happy guy, now, and it's BECAUSE I faced my demons and disarmed them. Indeed, I would probably not have such a good friendship with my ex, if we had tried to stay married.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

An interesting book that sheds light upon the brain science behind obsessive thought patterns is Daniel Siegel's Mindsight. He shows that obsessive thought patterns actually set up neural pathways within our brain cells which once established are very difficult to unplug...He does suggest certain exercises to reduce these pathways and get off the repetitive negative thinking that holds us down. Worth a read.

IMO as regards acceptance vs. forgiveness? Acceptance(the understanding that the betrayal really happened, no more denial for the betrayed) is absolutely necessary to achieve forgiveness, and forgiveness without acceptance is simply cheap or false forgiveness. How one achieves acceptance is totally unique to the individual; their expectations, needs, personality, length and type of infidelity, and countless other factors. 

Once acceptance is achieved, the work on forgiveness can begin. One analogy that I like is that it is a process,like peeling an onion , one layer at a time until one day the resentment and pain associated with the betrayal is simply gone. The individual's understanding of the betrayal, what numerous transgressions make up that betrayal is different for every BS. Drunken ONS or long term P and E affair? Two very different things in my mind. Sex once in a car/office or bringing the AP home to the marital bed numerous times? Sex with a stranger or with BS's best friend/relative? Revealing the personal secrets of the BS, disrespecting the BS to the AP or complete discretion? The countless lies, deceptions, hours of affection stolen away from spouse and children are also transgressions to be forgiven. There are usually many levels of betrayal in committing infidelity which necessitates forgiveness over and over as each issue comes up for the betrayed and is dealt with one by one: it is not just one thing a BS must forgive but many.

Perhaps the author Amy Tan described the dilemma best in her book The Valley of Enchantment," ...but it started with her desires. I bore the consequences, and it was not just suffering of the heart. What was forgiveness anyway? Cleansing her of guilt? Giving myself the reward of heaven? What godlike power would enable me to gladly make her whole, while knowing I would never be? I wished I could forgive her and release the pain in me. But part of my heart was missing - where forgiveness and trust had once been. It was empty and there was nothing left to give."


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By Rookie
> 
> Oh, and calling me narrow minded is okay? If you want a truce, sokay by me, but if you don't want me to defend..... don't attack.
> 
> ...




*



If you avoid bad thoughts, then how do you know what to forgive?

Click to expand...

*Rookie
When a person finds out about infidelity and then has over a year in R, some have a good idea as to what to forgive. *Some do not need to deliberately think of all the bad and worst things all of the time.*



> By Rookie
> The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time






*Rookie I am going to put my comments in context about this issue.* What started all this was my response was to Pam when she stated:


*By Pam*
I think I have forgiven, but how do I know for sure? I am no longer angry or hurt much,* I think about it every day and some days it still bothers me that he did it and I am sometimes resentful.*


I responded with:



> Pam, how long have you been in R?
> 
> I ask this because you said that “I think about it every day” My suggestion? *FORCE yourself to put those thoughts out of your mind and FORCE yourself to think about how you can be more satisfied with who you are then take actions to be more satisfied.*


The context of my statement was to Pam who is over a year in R and was getting resentful because she was thinking about it EVERYDAY!  My suggestion was for her to FORCE herself to put these thoughts out of her mind and to change these thoughts to accept her self more. Pam was doing fine in her R until she thought about those thoughts every day.

Rookie, you come back with your posts where you tell us we are wrong then tell us that 



> The thing to do is deliberately think of all of the bad things you can. Think the worst, and think about it all of the time


Then you tell us that my suggestion to put those thoughts out of her mind that are causing her resentment are “wrong” and “…only expressions of fear and weakness”

I responded to your judgment of my suggestion as “…only expressions of fear and weakness” with a reprint of my post below:


> “You judging me as fearful and weak seem to indicate that you are narrow minded about these issues


”

Since my statement above is deemed by you as an attack do you think that your statement about my suggestion as being “wrong” and based on “weakness and fear “ as an attack? If these statements are attacks then you drew first blood.

However, I am going to withdraw my statement about you being narrow minded and will replace that statement with the crux of the matter. *The crux of the matter is outlined in my previous statement to you as listed below:*



*



I give you credit for your method working for you but you go on saying that my method is “wrong” and based on “fear” and “weakness.”

you do not give credit for others that use methods that have worked for them and then you judge them as fearful and weak[.

Why can’t you accept that your way worked for you and our way will also work?

Click to expand...

*


The three sentences above are the crux of the matter and if you want to answer those questions then I may continue to discuss this issue with you.

Some of our discussions are starting to get into a pissing contest and may take us away from the intention of my thread. I doubt that many on this thread give a crap about who kicks whose azz in this debate. Besides, I know that you can kick AZZ as I have read where you have done that. In fact you are a very serious azz kicker even if you have a toe or two missing! Rookie, do not take that as an insult it is meant as a compliment and I am trying to inject some humor as our discussion could probably use some humor!

Peace brother!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> Rookie
> When a person finds out about infidelity and then has over a year in R, some have a good idea as to what to forgive. *Some do not need to deliberately think of all the bad and worst things all of the time.*
> 
> 
> ...


Not a Prob. partner. Consider the issue closed.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Pam*
> So, we talked for a while and he finally asked me why I had asked him that question. I told him I have been thinking about forgiveness, what it means and where I feel I am right now with all this. *I asked him if he thought about his affair and he said yes, every day, or so*. I was a little surprised as I thought he was going to tell me , no, it's in the past. *He says he thinks more about how he hurt me and not the actual OW involved. He apologized again.*
> 
> 
> *This is the only reason we are where we are.* If he did not have this perspective and willingness to take the responsibility of it , he would not be here with me. He'd be gone, as I am not leaving my home and life here.



The bold above gave me reason for more thought. This is really a help to Pam as she said “This is the only reason we are where we are.” The part in bold above is very valuable in R. However, I think that the long term goal would be for him to think about the A only for the purpose of reminding him to cherish his wife and NOT to remind him of what a failure he is and how he is such a low life.


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Mr Blunt said:


> *The bold above gave me reason for more thought. This is really a help to Pam as she said “This is the only reason we are where we are.” The part in bold above is very valuable in R. However, I think that the long term goal would be for him to think about the A only for the purpose of reminding him to cherish his wife and NOT to remind him of what a failure he is and how he is such a low life*.


Well, I am not trying to make him feel like a low-life, so if he is, that is coming from within.

Speaking of which, last night we had a one step back kind of thing (2 steps forward, one step back etc.)'

I got a little miffed because I asked him a question about something he had jsut told me, and he blew me off, didn't answer, then said he didn't know. I knew he did, and this is a contention I have where he seems to get agitated if I ask more than one question. I was not grilling him, it was not an A issue, something innocuous. 

He got upset when I told him he does this a lot and then said "I haven't done anything like that in a year and a half and you are always bringing it up!" It took me a second to realize he was talking about how he acted during his A. I was not even thinking that way and told him so, it was just about the questions thing. And I don't bring up the affair much, haven't in a while except for that forgiveness discussion.

I asked him then, since he brought it up, is that how he really feels, that it's been a year and a half so I should just forget about it now? I shouldn't tell him if something reminds me of his affair MO? He refused to talk about it any more, he was done.

So, who knows, maybe it was just not a good night, maybe he's tired of feeling guilty all the time.

So, 2 steps forward....


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

PamJ said:


> Well, I am not trying to make him feel like a low-life, so if he is, that is coming from within.
> 
> Speaking of which, last night we had a one step back kind of thing (2 steps forward, one step back etc.)'
> 
> ...


Not meaning to thread jack, but this does relate to forgiveness. I would consider those responses problematic. Are you two in couples counseling? Are either one of you in individual counseling? 

As a functional adult, you should be able to openly discuss any topic you want to discuss with your spouse. If this is being done in a civil and adult manner, your spouse should have no problems discussing issues with you. No matter how sensitive they might be. The way you two communicate needs to improve significantly, I am tempted to lay all the blame at his feet, but only your version of events is being presented, so I will suggest you both attend IC and then CC together to focus on communication. 

It is certainly possible that he was having a bad day, but he *needs to understand* how fundamentally important it is for him to nurture trust and a feeling of safety within you, and how detrimental his actions can be to that process when he acts the way he does. Do your best to explain to him exactly how you felt when he shut down like that and refused to talk to you. Include the bit about you seeing that as a set back, he needs to know the truth.

To bring this back to forgiveness, this is exactly why it is so vital to separate forgiveness from reconciliation. It is possible to forgive without reconciling, it is not possible to reconcile without forgiveness.


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## nickgtg (Jan 11, 2013)

You know, I had told my ex she was forgiven for everything and I was ready to move on with my life. It has occurred to me over the last few days that perhaps I forgave to easily and quickly.

I feel like I've taken that forgiveness back from her, that she never deserved to have it in the first place. What's the point of forgiving someone if in the end you feel like they haven't earned it? 

She tells me all the time what a ****ty person she is, how she doesn't deserve to have my friendship, and basically what an overall horrible person she is. I just tell her to stop with the pity party because I don't want to hear it.

I don't know, maybe in time I'll feel different.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

It took me almost two and a half years to forgive and my wife didn't get physical....much.
For me it takes time,a lot apparently.
The questions,my moods and everything else got to my wife and I could see it pushing
her own sanity,not because she felt I was *****ing but she hated to see the hurt,hated what
she had done,hated herself,hated herself pretty bad.
I got to the point where I could not stand to see her beat her self up over and over.
I got tired of holding on to the pain.
I knew I did'nt have a reason to anymore.
Forgiviness is hard but its better when you let your WS be part of the progress.
Its not easy.
There are levels of remorse for me and that's how I knew I did the right thing.
Now there is even a good amount of trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Pam*
> Well, I am not trying to make him feel like a low-life, so if he is, that is coming from within.





> BY* BLUNT*
> However, I think that the long term goal *would be for him* to think about the A only for the purpose of reminding him to cherish his wife and NOT to remind him of what a failure he is and how he is such a low life.



*Pam, my post above was directed at your husband not you.* He thinks about his betrayal every day or two so I am trying to suggest to him and others that are in his condtion that the best way to react to his thoughts. The good way is for him to use those thoughts to remind him to CHERISH YOU. The negative way is for him to allow these failures to remind him that he was once a low life.

*My previous post reprinted above was only for your husband* since he is the one thinking about those thoughts every day or two


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Calvin*
> It took me almost two and a half years to forgive and my wife didn't get physical....much.
> For me it takes time,a lot apparently.
> The questions,my moods and everything else got to my wife and I could see it pushing
> ...




*Calvin
Two and a half years to get a high degree of forgiveness is pretty good!*



> I got to the point where I could not stand to see her beat her self up over and over.


*That is a sign of empathy for the offender and a result of advanced forgiveness*.


*Congradulations Calvin!*


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I have a few comments from page 1.

First of all, Mr. Blunt, you are to be commended. You went through a living nightmare with your colleague and did not crack. 

You wrote:



> Frankly, I think that the revenge and hatred he had finally made him little mentally ill. He actually started to believe some of the allegations that he made that were preposterous and no sane person would consider them as being rational.
> 
> 
> After all those years this is what I did. I gave up all thoughts and plans of revenge, and resentments and am no longer angry with him. I will never forget or condone his actions of malice and will never hire him or be any kind of a friend with him. In fact I will never be in any social or private gathering with him. There will never be reconciliation between him and me. My feeling for him is total apathy.
> ...


My thoughts about this are that you found pity for Mr. W. It is a manner of finding a reason to forgive.

You see, that's what I think it takes for us to forgive. We must find a reason. It may be different for each of us, but there must be a reason that is worthy of what we believe is the price of the cost to us to forgive the WS.

Even acceptance requires us to convince ourselves that we cannot win. We cannot make a difference, no matter what we do. 

Whether what we are looking for is revenge in an evil sense or just finding a way to prove what we know is true, and what was said and done was in no way close to what we deserved. 


As far as the Christian way of thinking, I have to say that there was a cost for our forgiveness. It was the price of a lamb going to the slaughter without complaining or doing anything to stop what had to happen. It was acceptance at it's utmost possibility. This lamb did not deserve the slaughter. He deserved to be treated as a king. 

Yes, there is a price for forgiveness. 

We cannot be forgiven unless we ask for it and repent in a humble and remorseful manner. Change our evil ways and live as good a life as we are humanly capable. This is the price of forgiveness. 

We are encouraged to confess to one another, what we hold against our neighbor. Is that not a price in itself? We must find our own faults to do so. We must humble ourselves with the understanding that we are not perfect.

So, I think we each have our part. We may not consider what we did as worthy of the evils done. We don't get to make that decision, though. That's all on the WS to decide. It may have been worth it to them. It may have been a weak moment. It may have been planned. It may have been any number of reasons that made the WS feel justified in their actions. It may have been a deficiency in understanding, or ability to reason. 

Whatever the reason, even to find the ability to accept what happened, we must at least acknowledge that there was a problem. We must find ourselves to be human and humble, or we must find pity for the WS. 

That's what I have gotten out of what I have read and lived. 

Not all of this was based on what you alone wrote, Mr. Blunt. It was a based on all that I read on page one. 

Great thoughts from you two, they have made me think once again.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Headspin said:


> For all my experience forgiveness (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder
> 
> *My forgiveness or definition of it will be different to someone else's *
> 
> ...



In the bold sentences, I think it is different for everyone, and the price or cost to each doing the forgiving is different. Some will forgive more easily than others, requiring less in return from the WS. Some will require more. 

Each of us assigns a cost and an expected return.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *2ntnuf*
> You see, that's what I think it takes for us to forgive. *We must find a reason*. It may be different for each of us, but there must be a reason that is worthy of what we believe is the price of the cost to us to forgive the WS.




My reasons for forgiving my WS (Wife)


1	I wanted to get better

2	I had fear that my children would suffer more

3	I believed that God would help me if I forgave

4	I believe that if I forgive then I will be forgiven

5	I did not want to add to my wife’s devastation

6	I remembered all the good times that my wife and I had

7	My wife is a woman that chose to violate herself, her children, me, and her God but she still has a lot of good in her.

8	I still had a tender spot in my heart for her


*The above proved to be true for the last 25+ years*


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Mr Blunt said:


> My reasons for forgiving my WS (Wife)
> 
> Bfree - Just for comparison's sake:
> 
> ...


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> My reasons for forgiving my WS (Wife)
> Bfree - Just for comparison's sake:
> 
> 1I wanted to get better
> ...


*Two different situations and two different ways to get a LOT better
Different stokes for different folks!




Anyone else have reasons for forgiving?*


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I realized the other day, that my difficulty in forgiving my FWH is due to the fact that there were countless betrayals over 23 years...from the moment he rejected me as wife and replaced an OW in my role. 

I am very aware of my own responsibility in making our marriage dysfunctional and I own up to them, apologized for them and am working hard to behave in a more compassionate way. I can try to understand his resorting to an affair as escape, entitlement, etc and perhaps forgive him for thinking he could carry on without hurting me... 

But I cannot look at his 2 affairs as just one s**t sandwich to forgive, but rather as a continued diet of small and large betrayals forced down my throat: the lack of disclosure of the first, the years between when he lived a lie and hid his secret life from me, the failure to learn anything about himself from the ending of the first, the willingness to enter a second because he was intrigued when asked "if he wanted to fool around", the withdrawal of love and affection, the looking into my eyes and lying to my face when I asked if he was having an affair both times, using my trust and love to manipulate his excuses and lies and navigate his affairs, the 6 year duration of the second affair, his inviting the OW into my home and our bed, playing house when I was out of town, his refusal to grant me any sex while involved with OW, the private personal things he told OW about me, the exaggerations and negative spin he put on our marriage and me, all the dreams and expectations I held which he forever destroyed, the TTing after DDay, the lies, the continued contact, the false R and on and on.

Each betrayal has its corresponding trigger that I must work through on a daily basis. And yes! each one he has to own, and explain and ask for forgiveness for as they occur. He threw 23 years of our marriage away in his selfishness and lies and I'll be d****d if I can forgive all that in one Godlike moment. I am trying, I am desperately searching for that magic formula of forgiveness, but until I have that AHA! moment, I intend to deal with forgiveness bit by bit, layer by layer. I sincerely hope I can achieve full forgiveness before I die. 

We have had 4 good months now of true R and are in MC finally even though Dday #1 was 3 years ago. I try to dwell on the good moments we had in the past, the ones we are creating now, the return of love, my blessings, our opportunities, both our attempts at self understanding and growth while searching for a way to identify the good person he was and could return to and separate that from the devastating things he did.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

allwillbewell said:


> ...He threw 23 years of our marriage away in his selfishness and lies and I'll be d****d if I can forgive all that in one Godlike moment. I am trying, I am desperately searching for that magic formula of forgiveness, but until I have that AHA! moment, I intend to deal with forgiveness bit by bit, layer by layer. I sincerely hope I can achieve full forgiveness before I die.
> 
> We have had 4 good months now of true R and are *in MC* finally...


I am sorry for your pain, as a fBS I understand some of what you are going through. There is no normative time period for healing or forgiveness, it certainly does not happen over night, and does not need to happen all at once. Your approach is perfectly fine, especially if it is working for you.

Couples counseling is an essential component, and I'm glad you two are utilizing it.

I would recommend adding individual counseling for yourself, and having him do the same. Individual counseling will help you identify issues and help you make discoveries about yourself. You can then bring what you learn/discover in IC to couples counseling.

You are choosing the difficult, but very rewarding, path of R. If both of you fully commit to the process, the end result will be worth while.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *BY allwillbewell*
> 
> I realized the other day, that my difficulty in forgiving my FWH is due to the fact that there were countless betrayals over 23 years...from the moment he rejected me as wife and replaced an OW in my role.
> 
> ...






Allwillbewell

*I first want to commend you for your outstanding actions in trying to forgive and reconcile!* You have certainly been given a mountain to climb.


To back up Paladin’s statement, in my experiences, it does take time to gain (forgiveness) in betrayal and most certainly does not occur in a moment, days, or weeks. 

Your husband is a very wounded man but I am sure you know this and I hope that he does also. Now this knowledge should propel him to diligently seek every opportunity to build himself up and when possible to build you up. Being a weak man he will probably not be able to build you up as much as you need. *As Paladin has stated it would be wise for you to get IC because IC is very important.*



What your husband has done is very damaging to you and it just may not be possible that you both rebuild the marriage to a real high degree of love and trust. However, I have seen a few cases that a high degree was achieved. What I think is critical for you is that you keep working on forgiveness so that your emotions can be freed from such pain. *Even though you have been hit very hard you can forgive if you use the correct methods. That forgiveness is for you mostly.*



In my case I became more self reliant and no longer put a majority of my emotional needs in my WS. This took years but I am contented and much more secure now. I want my WS and me to remain together and supply some of each other’s needs but I know that she can no longer devastate me like she did years ago. This is mostly due to my years of building me up. *My wife and I have a good relationship but it is not like you read in the romance books nor is it great; it is just good to very good at times. I have a good life and am thankful to God and others*.


For right now I would recommend that you concentrate mostly on building yourself up and your children. If you have extra strength left over you can try and help your husband but his character flaw is mostly up to him to fix.



I want to say again that you are really a very strong woman and your decision to try and forgive is to be admired. *Keep building yourself up body, mind, and spirit! 
May God be with you!*


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

forgiveness is an exceptance, almost condoning what happened...making it easier sometimes for the offender to reoffend

some things are unforgivable...infidelity is definitely one imo...THAT betrayal is not a momentary slip or a mistake, its an on purpose that takes a lot of planning, manipulation, deception to carry out (im talking affairs, not a one night stand)...lies, lying to the kids, family, friends...this goes so beyond just infidelity, it is an extreme character flaw, a flaw that has to affect other aspects of life...i dont want to grow old with THAT sort of flawed character, and I certainly dont want to raise kids with that either

just my 0.02


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: Mr. Blunt and Bfree discuss FORGIVENESS*



Mr Blunt said:


> Allwillbewell
> 
> *I first want to commend you for your outstanding actions in trying to forgive and reconcile!* You have certainly been given a mountain to climb.
> 
> ...


I'd like to echo what Mr Blunt said here and add this. Even though I chose not to fully forgive I did have to work toward that goal to finally accept what happened, realize that it was not my doing and out of my control and forgive myself for my own shortcomings. Even if you feel you can never fully forgive what your husband did you need to work toward forgiveness in order to get beyond the pain of betrayal. And you may surprise yourself at how much inner strength you really have.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Yes, breaking the bond of emotional dependency and self forgiveness are crucial first step to forgiveness. I do not believe forgiving him depends on condoning what he did but accepting that our past had these horrible events. Acceptance does not make them right, but does allow the BS to finally discard the fairy tales and see the WS as he truely is and not as we had built them up to be.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *BY allwillbewell*
> Yes, breaking the bond of emotional dependency and self forgiveness are crucial first step to forgiveness. I do not believe forgiving him depends on condoning what he did but accepting that our past had these horrible events. Acceptance does not make them right, but does allow the BS to finally discard the fairy tales and see the WS as he truly is and not as we had built them up to be.




*Very good post allwillbewell!*


*I would like to add that breaking the unbalanced emotional dependency is HUGE!* I am not saying that you do not ever have emotional dependency on your spouse but to strive for the right balance.

For me my fairy tale was that I thought that she would die for me. She seemed crazy about me and at times I could see that I lifted her life to the sky. However, slowly the day to day of life went into years and years of responsibility and conflicts. I see now that the great adoration that she had for me was partly her living her low self esteem through me. When she found out that I was not the great white knight in shinning armor and had my share of short coming things stated changing. Infidelity occurred and I adjusted my emotional dependency on her to a better balance. We have been in R for over 25 years.


I have observed my parents marriage; one that sure was no love fest at all. They had plenty of hard conflicts and pain. The lesson that has learned from them is that there is a lot to be said for the WWII generation that Tom Brokaw called the Greatest Generation. Why? Well one reason is that *they were committed and valued perseverance and faith.* They also knew that life was not full of excitement and good feelings and was not dejected when life was painful and boring. They came from the depression of the 1930s and the poverty of the 1940s.They did not expect anyone to give them anything and no one did but they worked their way through the 1950s-60s, 70s, and 80s. Mom and dad both worked and dad had two jobs most of his life. They showed me that fairy tales is not what marriage is about. *I am so grateful for them showing me the balance that I needed; the balance of not forgetting that life is mostly about marriage, children, work, and God not feelings and fairy tales.*


Lest you think that they had a morose life then consider this. Dad and Mom live in an apartment in our city where we can all go see them everyday. Yes we all are:
Me and my brother and sister, their 7 grandchildren and 6 great-grandchildren. 

In my case my dad and mom have worked with me and have for over 40 years. I see them at least 4-5 times a week and we go out to eat together at lest 3 time a week. The now own two homes in addition to living in the apartment. They finally do not have to worry about money and appreciate a home that has indoor plumbing and air conditioning.



*Yes they employed the commitment and perseverance and shared tand applied he same spiritual faith along with great admiration for family.* This was the glue that kept them married for 68 years. Sadly my father’s funeral was last Saturday. He was 88 years old and mom would not leave his side until he passed away at home. She held his hand for hours as he went into a coma, took him to the bathroom when he could walk, and would not allow us to hire help to care for him even though mom is 89!!!

They showed me what the old values were that also included family and faith. So when I expect to always be the white knight in shinning armor and always have my emotions and feeling fed, I just remember dad and mom and that helps me to get a better balance about fairy tales and real life.


I remember what my mom said may years ago when I was disappointed in life. She said “son learn to settle for less”. Even though she had great expectations in life yet she learned about reality and wanted me to get a better balance. She knew about fairy tales because she was a farm girl from Iowa and went to live with her aunts in San Francisco in the 1940s and she thought that she was in heaven. Then she met my dad, a swavy swabby sailor that took her to the big band dances and her fairy tales sky rocketed.



When you have been unmarried for 68 years I am sure you see the GOOD, THE BAD, and THE UGLY of human nature. However they were a HUGE success in family and faith and I am very fortunate to have them as my parents.


Mom just told me two days ago that she is just going to think about the good in my dad and not remember the bad. That sounds like something akin to forgiveness don’t you think?


PS
I realize that there are some marriages that just cannot be saved but in my dad and mom’s case they did not have too many fairy tales and when the ones they had blew up they found a way to be very successful later in life!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Thought this would be appropriate for some.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

For me, that's not forgiveness. It's letting go of the pain. True forgiveness is wiping the slate clean of all that occurred before. It is like meeting the person who hurt or harmed you for the first time, once again. All is new. What was in the past is left there, never to be remembered. Like it never happened. To me, that's forgiveness in it's purest form. 

I can't do that. I hurt too much. I was actually harmed. When you are harmed, you cannot be the person who you were before. It's like going to war and coming back with one less leg, being blinded by an explosion or deafened by the percussion of a bomb. You can't be the person you once were. How do you let go when you have one less leg? 

How do you not think of the trauma when you watch a favorite sport that you can no longer play? How do you truly forgive if you cannot say to yourself, "it was an accident"?


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Mr Blunt so very sorry for the loss of your dad...his spirit remains with you always in your memories and in what he taught you about life. And your mom is so right: remember the good, discard the bad.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Mr Blunt said:


> *Very good post allwillbewell!*
> 
> 
> *I would like to add that breaking the unbalanced emotional dependency is HUGE!* I am not saying that you do not ever have emotional dependency on your spouse but to strive for the right balance.
> ...


Excellent,just excellent
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I think forgiveness is great if you can do it. 

There must be some baseline for it, though. I think if you have a completely remorseless cheater who has devastated you, there's not much to forgive. You just have to learn how to ACCEPT that it happened the way it happened.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

staystrong said:


> I think forgiveness is great if you can do it.
> 
> There must be some baseline for it, though. I think if you have a completely remorseless cheater who has devastated you, there's not much to forgive. You just have to learn how to ACCEPT that it happened the way it happened.


This is true. It's a horribly difficult process, though. When there is no closure and what info is out there is not quite the truth, you live with folks treating you like a leper and at times letting your guard down and wondering why, until you remember what was said and realize you are living consequences you didn't quite earn, but were bequeathed. 

Well, that's my issue and it's tough to work on because the guilty party won't come forward with the truth and help my counselor to help me. My counselor just thinks I am a complete liar or have buried some truths for self-preservation. So, I can't even get the correct help to heal. 

I'm trying, though. I am still, unbelievably, trying.


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