# By the way, that EA you had last summer...



## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

First, thanks for being here. I’ve done a lot of reading and learning on this site and it’s helped to preserve my sanity. This forum in particular has shown me what my gut was telling me. Stats: Married 15 years (both 44), 3 kids (10, 12 and 14). She’s a stay at home mom. I’ve done startups to Fortune 500, currently building my own business.

Last summer, after a few tumultuous years in our marriage my wife said she is done with me and wants me out. I’ll take the hit for prior poor communication and not manning up. 
…too long for now but will elaborate if necessary. Sibling death, career ups and downs, move away from family/friends (to her home state / family), starting new business and financial instability while attempting to keep everyone happy resulted in my beta way overpowering my alpha.

I didn’t leave. We started counseling but didn’t really get anywhere. The whole time I’m trying to reconcile with her and my own observations. She’s getting in great shape, dressing sexier, out with friends, shunning me, guarding phone, criticizing…yeah I know, I get it now. My instincts were correct and a budding EA was cut off. By this I mean that I confronted the OM and it did stop. But my [email protected]$$ did not confront her. Monitored and checked on every front I can conceive of and absolutely nothing since.

Now to the present. Saturday night we have a sit down and whole bunch of stuff get brought up. Deciding that there’s no better time than the present I confront the EA. She defended, targeted me, rationalized and then accepted responsibility. No real remorse was shown. What I got was, “I see that it was wrong and it will never happen again”.

So what now? Do I push buttons till I get a satisfactory remorse response? Chalk it up to a near-miss? Continue to work on me and our marriage to further prevent similar issues? Your feedback to the situation, these questions and any other advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Married in VA (Jan 6, 2012)

Her lack of remorse expresses her willingness to do it again. She didn't have any consequences for her behavior. She may have "learned her lesson" and this may be a near miss but without any reaction on her part you will never know. I would keep monitoring her but the trust would not be there. ALWAYS continue working on you, especially to get your alpha back. You may find that with some alpha and confidence you may attract your wife back. How do you know that physical adultery did not happen?


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

A word for starters - your spouse's EA or PA is/was never your fault.

Don't push the buttons for what you want to hear - namely some true remorse in your case. Do it with 180, do the man up properly this time and show her consequences, what's at stake.

She created that famous void that which SHE chose to fill with someone else's emotions or I don't know which body parts, so it's HER job to get out of its event horizon. Show her what you're made of.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

No remorse = no marriage. D is the only option. Maybe - MAYBE - once you file for D she will get that you mean business.


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## fishfast41 (Dec 12, 2010)

I think you should file for divorce,then explain to her why. If/when she freaks and shows the remorse you need to see, then you can decide to reconcile or not. If you don't show that you are perfectly ok with dumping her,I'd bet my left nut she'll do it again.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

If she doesn't understand that what she did was wrong then there's your problem, right there...


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Married in VA said:


> Her lack of remorse expresses her willingness to do it again. She didn't have any consequences for her behavior. She may have "learned her lesson" and this may be a near miss but without any reaction on her part you will never know. I would keep monitoring her but the trust would not be there. ALWAYS continue working on you, especially to get your alpha back. You may find that with some alpha and confidence you may attract your wife back. How do you know that physical adultery did not happen?


She learned her lesson-the lesson being: "Admit nothing, deny everything, blame everyone else and DON'T GET CAUGHT NEXT TIME."


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

yea I'd be willing to bet the affair never ended it just went underground. EA partners tend to weasel their way back into WS's lives. You probably got complacent as well. I am willing to bet that if you go back into fact finding mode you will find more stuff. You need to back off and find out more information. you also may have tipped your WW off that the reason he stopped coming around was something you did. Therefore she may go running right back to the other man. You need to pay attention and start monitoring everything you can get your hands on. go to the thread in my sig. It has all kinds of tips and tricks on how the get dirt. Right now is time to start getting info and if you do find anything keep your mouth shut until you have proof that is irrefutable, and damning.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Last summer, after a few tumultuous years in our marriage my wife said she is done with me and wants me out. I’ll take the hit for prior poor communication and not manning up.


It is very likely that the "EA" (more likely PA - more in a sec) helped precipitate this. 



Idyit said:


> I didn’t leave. We started counseling but didn’t really get anywhere. The whole time I’m trying to reconcile with her and my own observations. * She’s getting in great shape, dressing sexier, out with friends, shunning me, guarding phone, criticizing…yeah I know, I get it now.* My instincts were correct and a budding EA was cut off. By this I mean that I confronted the OM and it did stop. But my [email protected]$$ did not confront her. Monitored and checked on every front I can conceive of and absolutely nothing since.


The bold ^^ is some evidence it was a PA - and don't think that just because the AP didn't live nearby it didn't happen. 
Where and how did they meet? She's a SAHM. How did you track him down? What makes you think he didn't get on the horn and warn her? Unless you gave him something to really "think about" you didn't really scare him off - just drove him underground. 




Idyit said:


> *She defended, targeted me, rationalized *and then accepted responsibility. No real remorse was shown. What I got was, “I see that it was wrong and it will never happen again”.


But she never EXPLAINED the attraction right? She never apologized did she? 

I get the impression she just wanted to 'shut you up' or get you to quit talking about it. The fact that she initially rationalized should tell you her thought process about the whole affair. She thought it was fine. She was not remorseful. She thought she was within her rights as an individual. 

After you scared off the OM (or thought you did) - what was her demeanor? Still continued with 'ms body beautiful' campaign? Still giving you the cold shoulder? 

Has she reconnected with long lost female friends? If so, there may well be a few toxic "you go girl" types that encouraged her. 

Ask her to write out a narrative of what happened. How it started, how she justified it, why it ended (if you didn't already reveal), who else knew. 

It's not over. l


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Alrighty that’s a bunch of stuff to start with.

I’ll start with the EA itself. The OM is someone who has done work for me that necessitated some interaction with my wife. A majority of the contact was via text and almost all of it was strictly business. Phone contact was always brief, less than 5 minutes. The inappropriate bits were mild by most standards. (How’s your ankle healing? Did you do well in the race? Wish I could have seen that finish…) The kicker for me was when she invited him on a bike ride that I was definitely not included on. He declined before I ever got involved.

Why do I have reason to believe this ended? First I don’t think he was at all reciprocating. OM was a few months into a relationship with a hardbody, knockout homewrecker of his own. Not much upside to the whole thing for him. Second, I confronted and in no uncertain terms informed him that there would be no more communication with my wife. If he chose to do so I would wreck him financially and physically.

I know about the communication because I’m a sneaky [email protected]$$turd. And continue to be because I have a vested interest in knowing.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

As to the changes in her, it seems she was doing a 180. Got my attention. She has not continued. During her 180 I would give her MMSL rank even or maybe a point above me. Since then she has gone backward and me forward. The appeal thing can sound arrogant but I am confidant of myself and what I can offer.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi *Idyit*. The OP is a bit too jumbled for me to sort out the timing, which matters in my ever humble but infallible opinion.

It started with her saying she was through with you, and you took responsibility for that. If we begin from that framing, then her saying so and practicing the 180 for her needs not being met in the marriage would not be out of line. We would say it took that much to get you to pay attention and be a good husband.

But if we frame it as her starting this emotional affair first, getting in shape and being distant, telling you to get out of the house so she can have better opportunity to bang this guy then we have a very different story.

One of the difficulties here is that having tipped off the other guy it certainly got back to her and gave the opportunity to drive him or any other AP deep underground. 

So I have a story that is not so clear to me and a data problem afterwards - but what remains is lack of remorse. That tells me she still has not regained empathy for her husband. This is troubling.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

_It started with her saying she was through with you, and you took responsibility for that. If we begin from that framing, then her saying so and practicing the 180 for her needs not being met in the marriage would not be out of line. We would say it took that much to get you to pay attention and be a good husband._

Wiseforit... Your statement above is accurate. I do think she was trying to get my attention and succeeded. Buuuut...I still have the prickly problem of remorse and as you put it, "regained empathy".

I would not change the tip off as you put it. I had enough info for me to take action and to wait around for it to get more involved seems foolish. 

Clear boundaries on ANY relationship that specifically excludes either of us have been re-established. This includes opposite sex, toxic friends, even porn. My response to a repeat of her actions is also clear, that I would file for divorce.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> Hi *Idyit*. The OP is a bit too jumbled for me to sort out the timing, which matters in my ever humble but infallible opinion.
> 
> It started with her saying she was through with you, and you took responsibility for that. If we begin from that framing, then her saying so and practicing the 180 for her needs not being met in the marriage would not be out of line. We would say it took that much to get you to pay attention and be a good husband.
> 
> ...


wait up how does OP even know that the worst of his situation was cause by the affair lasting a lot longer than he thought. He just knows there is a rabbit hole and not how deep or long it is. I'd hold of on calling yourself infallible. Loyal spouses don't just up and say "I am done with you and get out" maybe a " we need to talk" or we need therapy. But get out is a big hint that the EA is a lot futher along than the OP has a clue about. And I doubt that it was a cry for attention. Since the EA and the "get out" were not that far apart. If you want attention you don't go shag the neighbor. I want to know OP what else you have done to try and find out what exactly happened, when it happened, and why you sound like every other guy who hasn't figured out that the EA probably did a lot more damage than being distant. 
You are at fault 50 / 50 in a marriage until you WS decided to go out side the marriage. Once she did that she compromised your marriage and there isn't much you can do to save a marriage with a big fat hole in it cause by infidelity.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Idyit said:


> I would not change the tip off as you put it. I had enough info for me to take action and to wait around for it to get more involved seems foolish.
> 
> Clear boundaries on ANY relationship that specifically excludes either of us have been re-established. This includes opposite sex, toxic friends, even porn. My response to a repeat of her actions is also clear, that I would file for divorce.


Absolutely. I wasn't faulting you. 

It's more that this residual lack of remorse makes us wonder if there was either more you didn't know, or it got driven deep underground, or the potential still lingers...

You are right to be concerned.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

OP i really don't want to use your handle because you are not an idiot. I strongly suggest you look for more evidence. You only know what you know because you got lucky. You need to start digging. You need to find out if this was just and EA. 
Until you know more you are going to be stuck in the type of emotional limbo where you don't know whether to trust your wife (bad idea) or to draw a line the in sand and say I won't be cheated on. For your sake you need to start looking at the cell phone bill. Email, and other methods to give you a clearer picture of what you are dealing with. You don't have enough to know whether or not it was just an EA. I mean most EA's don't have the WS trying to kick their BS out of the house.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

@Bane. Thanks for thinking of me higher than my handle but I wear it well sometimes. I appreciate and value your input as I've seen it on many threads here. 

I have scoured all phone records, text, email etc. and have continued with less frequency. No GNOs, unexplained trips/absences or odd behavior. There is no evidence of anything suspicious past this summer. Check my post at 7:49 for more detail. 

Yes the timing of this thing was conspicuous which is why I responded the way I did. If I even suspected this were anything more than described, our conversation would be completely different. The huge flaw in all this was not confronting her immediately.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

After re-reading the responses and further conversation I'm looking back at the same question. Why no remorse? I do not think the summer thing is ongoing but this does not mean her statements about being her done are resolved.

Ramble --> Discussion about why she took off engagement ring. She was pissed at me. Clearly told her that this needs to get fixed...hour or so of discussion. Two days later still not wearing it. Call me an Idyit but that's a flag with some red on it! Her - "I didn't think about it.." "You could have made it right by giving it back/returning... doing it right this time..." **it's my fault**

More ramble --> Her - "Can't we just move on and forget about this stuff?" Huh? No!

More Ramble --> Brings up stuff from 15 years ago (see above). Her - "You looked at porn. That's cheating with another woman." (I've seen nekkid boobies about 5 times in 9 months / not hers)

Divorce suggestions seem more logical as the days pass. Kids 10, 12 and 14 make this a very difficult step to consider. Not sure what to do.

Eh, I'm done...


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

Idyit said:


> After re-reading the responses and further conversation I'm looking back at the same question. Why no remorse? I do not think the summer thing is ongoing but this does not mean her statements about being her done are resolved.
> 
> Ramble --> Discussion about why she took off engagement ring. She was pissed at me. Clearly told her that this needs to get fixed...hour or so of discussion. Two days later still not wearing it. Call me an Idyit but that's a flag with some red on it! Her - "I didn't think about it.." "You could have made it right by giving it back/returning... doing it right this time..." **it's my fault**
> 
> ...


It's possible that divorce papers may be the wake up call that is needed, but you should exhaust all your other options before considering this. Your situation is not as bad as some might make it sound and I think it's completely possible to turn it around and fix your marriage. 

Your kids will probably be *DEVASTATED* if you and your wife D and it will ruin their childhood. If you still *love your wife* then I would suggest you keep working on your marriage. 

I believe that you can always win a woman back and sometimes that requires putting your foot down and taking charge. Others can guide you in this direction much better than I can so I will let them take over.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Barcafan, thank you. DEVASTATED... That is a powerful word and it strikes home.


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

Thank you for reading. I truly do believe that you can repair your marriage and live a happy and healthy life with your wife and children. Have you considered doing the "180" and reading the books No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man Sex Life?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

180 = Six to nine months in progress (6' 180 / work out / run sub 9min miles at altitude / former college athlete)

NMMNG = Read It (This is probably my biggest focus)
- Looking back and even said to her that I just got tired of being *****ed at with no resolution. Attitude was, "meh, she'll be better tomorrow." Let too much stuff go and tried to keep the piece. (<--Heh! You see what I did there?!?)

MMSL = Read It (This works a whole lot better when applying NMMNG)
- Without she and I communicating I would look like a swinging d*ck dropping corny lines....

I guess this is part of the frustration. I've done many things, including the above and not getting response. :scratchhead:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Let's see- , you look great, you have a successful business, you confront her with confidence and resolution. You stopped being a pushover. 

What is missing. Why is she still disrespectful towards you? Someone asked if you love her. It seems obvious to me that you do. My question is does she love you? 

I can't tell if she does but I think she is showing you very little respect. 

Does she know you are monitoring her communications? Have you searched for a burner phone? 

Of course you can waste endless time looking for cheating that may not exist but, I think you should check again. it won't take a lot of time. 

Then try to figure out why she is so sure of you that she is disrespectful. Is she employed? How secure are you finacially at this point? Women usually have a plan if they are ready to check out. When she mentioned D how did she plan to support herself? Where did she plan to live and who would pay for it! 

Does she have confidence in your abilities? I am certain this has not escaped you. Starting a business and making it run takes a lot of hard work and self-confidence. Does she appreciate that you are doing this for your family. 

Did you let her know that her lack of appreciation adds to your stress while you are working so hard to please her and take care of your kids? It might be worth having this conversation with her if you feel comfortable. 

I suppose you need to be careful about seeming to whine. Maybe put it to her in a way that is boundary setting, something you expect her to do. 

She may fold in time though. She is probably being proud and stubborn. Try giving her a face-saving way to show remorse, if you feel comfortable. 

I think you should make it clear that you will not move past this at her pace but your own. Also she must show true remorse and atone for her misdeed. 

If you had not stepped in and this guy was interested, she may very well have had an affair. Given her attitude now, she may have one in the future, if the oppurtunity presents itself. You can't prevent it with your words, she has to prevent it by what she does and says.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Discussion about why she took off engagement ring. She was pissed at me. Clearly told her that this needs to get fixed...hour or so of discussion. Two days later still not wearing it. Call me an Idyit but that's a flag with some red on it! Her - "I didn't think about it.." "You could have made it right by giving it back/returning... doing it right this time..." **it's my fault**
> 
> More ramble --> Her - "Can't we just move on and forget about this stuff?" Huh? No!
> 
> More Ramble --> Brings up stuff from 15 years ago (see above). Her - "You looked at porn. That's cheating with another woman." (I've seen nekkid boobies about 5 times in 9 months / not hers)


Taking off the ring is an overt act of war on a relationship and these other acts of hostility look like a punishment regime, not a marriage. She's cool with just having you super frustrated. 

The business about "moving on" - yeah, classic move by an abusive spouse. Moving on would be fixing things or divorce. "Status Quo" of making you miserable is the actuality. 

I'd be laying that out with calm resolution. Look hon, I either need you on board with fixing this or we're parting.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> Let's see- , you look great, you have a successful business, you confront her with confidence and resolution. You stopped being a pushover.
> ** Woo Hoo! I look great... Thanks Catherine
> What is missing. Why is she still disrespectful towards you? Someone asked if you love her. It seems obvious to me that you do. My question is does she love you?
> ** She does not show (verb) love. Extremely rare that she says it.
> ...


** Yup. Can't agree more. This is why I am adamant that we need to get this resolved
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Taking off the ring is an overt act of war on a relationship and these other acts of hostility look like a punishment regime, not a marriage. She's cool with just having you super frustrated.
> ** Indeed!!
> The business about "moving on" - yeah, classic move by an abusive spouse. Moving on would be fixing things or divorce. "Status Quo" of making you miserable is the actuality.
> ** I see this all more and more as abusive. Trick is getting her to see, admit and change this.
> ...


** This is pretty much where we are. As I said before, the D card has not come out. Kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> After you scared off the OM (or thought you did) - what was her demeanor? Still continued with 'ms body beautiful' campaign? Still giving you the cold shoulder?


DID SHE CHANGE WHEN YOU SCARED OFF MR WRONG?

Im hoping Im wrong but if she didnt change after the chase off something is rotten in Denmark.

Naked boobies? Living soft boobies or internet boobies? Living ones may be a problem on your part.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Idyit said:


> After re-reading the responses and further conversation I'm looking back at the same question. Why no remorse? I do not think the summer thing is ongoing but this does not mean her statements about being her done are resolved.
> 
> Ramble --> Discussion about why she took off engagement ring. She was pissed at me. Clearly told her that this needs to get fixed...hour or so of discussion. Two days later still not wearing it. Call me an Idyit but that's a flag with some red on it! Her - "I didn't think about it.." "You could have made it right by giving it back/returning... doing it right this time..." **it's my fault**
> 
> ...


Does this mean you haven't seen her boobs? How is your sex life since allthis happened? Any hysterical bonding?


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

As another member has pointed out, you certainly are not an idiot. 

So you are wealthy, successful, in great shape, and this woman does not show you respect? hmm....

I am a firm believer in consequences. From what I have read, she has not suffered the consequences of her actions.

I have a feeling that your wife takes you for granted. It's clear that she does not respect you and this needs to change immediately. She needs to acknowledge her wrong doings and show remorse. But how?

That is the question that only you can answer, because I cannot tell you how to punish your wife. What can you do that will give her a reality check besides throwing divorce papers in her face? She needs to understand that her actions have *consequences*. As I stated in my first post, you need to be firm and take action. When she tries to sell you her bullshi!t, you need to make her understand that you ain't buying it. That whole deal about you watching porn...blah blah...bunch of garbage.

I still don't think that your wife is currently cheating but it seems that she has disconnected from the marriage.

So what options do you have besides threatening D at this point?

Do not make threats, unless you're willing to follow through with them. This includes divorce.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> DID SHE CHANGE WHEN YOU SCARED OFF MR WRONG?
> 
> Im hoping Im wrong but if she didnt change after the chase off something is rotten in Denmark.
> 
> Naked boobies? Living soft boobies or internet boobies? Living ones may be a problem on your part.


Yes definite change. There was minimal then no text/phone contact all related to business. I do believe he honored our 'agreement'. Also, her 180 slacked off. 

Had to reread your boobie question. No. No real, honest to goodness hooters have been viewed by me. I miss them. :smthumbup:


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

@Chap. I have to revise the boob thing. We have had sex once and boobs were involved. 

Hysterical bonding??? No


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Barcafan. Some would label this a conundrum. 

Rules of negotiation: 
Never enter a negotiation that you can't walk away from or it will become an exercise in how much you're willing to get screwed. 

Overplaying your hand will lose your position of advantage.


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## barcafan (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't know what hand you are playing with, only you do.

It would be easy for me to sit here and say get a divorce if you were 35 years old with no kids involved or if she was your girlfriend, I'd say DTB as I do in other posts. 

You have a lot to lose and a lot gain, so it is in fact a conundrum. But one worth losing sleep over. People will mainly tell you to dig for more evidence to catch some sort of cheating, but your efforts will be futile IMO. 

I have to think about this more. I can't encourage you to get a divorce because I don't believe it's the best solution to your problem.

I suppose the way I would handle the situation is to just lay down the law. 

I would express to her that her behavior is unacceptable and needs to change starting now. She would be required to own up to her mistakes, show remorse, and work hard to repair the marriage. If she shrugged me off, I'd file for divorce immediately to give her a reality check. This may of course lead to divorce. Note that this paragraph makes heavy use of the word *I*. I'd have to be okay with losing my marriage to gain it back. Yes this seems contradictory to my no divorce policy, I know.

No guts no glory as they say? eh

I keep editing this post. I'm trying to give you different perspectives to make you think about it rather than tell you what to do.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You need to make her sign a POST NUP---with a DURESS clause

You need to let her know that since she really doesn't seem to give much of a sh*t about you, and she is probably staying in this mge, just to keep her cushy lifestyle---that as of now she is responsible for paying half of all the bills, that includes, house, car, insurances, necessities of living---if that means getting a job, or two---so be it

If you intend to stay in this mge---then this whole EA, situation needs to be treated harshly by you-----she needs to be held accountable, and boundaries need to go in place----she can do all the 180 she wants---but in return, she gets a dose of REALITY, as to what life will be like if she is a D, single mother of 3 trying to make it on her own, with out her cushy lifestyle and bank---(bank being you)


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Had to reread your boobie question. No. No real, honest to goodness hooters have been viewed by me. I miss them. :smthumbup:


Uh cheating? strip clubs? Possibly not good. UH might be she knows about extracurricular activities.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Uh cheating? strip clubs? Possibly not good. UH might be she knows about extracurricular activities.


:scratchhead: No! No cheating, strip clubs or extracurricular activities.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

jnj express said:


> If you intend to stay in this mge---then this whole EA, situation needs to be treated harshly by you-----she needs to be held accountable, and boundaries need to go in place----she can do all the 180 she wants---but in return, she gets a dose of REALITY, as to what life will be like if she is a D, single mother of 3 trying to make it on her own, with out her cushy lifestyle and bank---(bank being you)


Completely agree on the EA. She still seems to think this was fairly benign. Get this! She said "Do you think I would try to replace you with him? He's 30 and acts like 18. I just wanted a friend" -- Hamster Alert Anyone!! I am not backing down and she's getting shaken up a bit. Boundaries have been clearly laid out.

Bank and cushy lifestyle stuff is not a threat really. As an intelligent, degreed woman who is a TFB she has fallback. The reality check for her would be my absence from my kids' lives. This leaves me with a threat that would harm my children most. At this point I'm not willing to do that.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

You should really consider having her sign a post-nuptial agreement, if its valid in your state.


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## snap (Oct 3, 2011)

Not saying you *should* divorce, but divorce shouldn't be off the table. Present her with two options (getting her sh** together and full disclosure, or parting ways), and be prepared to follow up.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Idyit said:


> :scratchhead: No! No cheating, strip clubs or extracurricular activities.


ER ok how Im confuzzled.

If you dont get to see the wifes equipment, strip clubs or cheating. Where are boobies you are seeing?

Damn now im the idiot?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Pixelated on a screen. 

And there was that one time where we did have sex.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Doing an update here but not sure If this should continue in CWI or new thread in different section would be better. 

After confronting in the EA there is still no real remorse. She admits to it being wrong, harmful to marriage and won't happen again. But no "oh ****e I really messed up!" Emotion to it. 

A few more things that have emerged in the last week:
- "I got married because my bio clock was ticking and you were there" this may be a bit of a paraphrase.
- She was raped in her mid 20s followed by abortion. Extreme remorse and self loathing as a result. Note, I did not know this until this weekend
- Sex is off the table.
- No change in behavior towards me. Has not spoken to me since Friday. 

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Ladies I would especially value your input at this time.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

? ewww rough one. I wonder if it is true if you were just a convenient sperm provider or if its an excuse.

Just a warning. It sounds like she is fully detaching. Emphasis on the word FULLY.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

WL, yes this is a rough one. I did hear the 'convenience' once before when she was quite drunk a few years ago. Maybe stress and alcohol are good truth serum.

I hear your warning.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Ladies please provide me with some input on my post #42. Rape is a huge issue and I have no notion of how or why she would not reveal this to me till now. Obviously this secret and sex with me will clash. Maybe help me understand how you or someone you know has dealt with this. Anything will help because I'd like to understand this better.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Lanie Lanie Lanie... thank you for your response. I started a note 3 times and here's number four. 

I do love my wife, compliment her, thank her for things she does, kiss her on the cheek to show "I love you", tell her she's an awesome mom... I try to show her and tell her that she is appreciated and loved. Not enough or just being a Nice Guy?? With so little in return I would opt that I have advanced far down the Nice Guy road to ruin. 

Is she underground with the EA, lost that loving feeling or depressed? Most likely the latter two. She has agreed to IC and is seeking that out on her own. MC has been tried and failed probably due to EA AT THAT TIME, not addressing depression, focusing all of our issues on me and et ceteraaaa... I have declined MC until she has had some time to work through some stuff in IC.

Which brings me to the painful part. Lanie, how have you lived X years with this secret?? I was gobsmacked by my wife's revelation. Hearing yours tells me this may be more common than I could have imagined. In my own paternal protective way i grieve for both of you. 

Now that this is somewhat open between she and I there is something more to work on and with. It's sort of like the missing puzzle pieces that BSs feel they need to understand. In a way I'm grateful that I now know. Vulnerability may not be high on your agenda with a 2x WS. At some point it may help your husband truly see how an affair hurts you. Body image, self image, sex, intimacy, trust and vulnerability all get filtered through a horrendous event(s) that he has no idea are even there. 

...20 minute pause and my mind is reeling. This changes things a lot.

I'll stop now. Thank you. Feel free to PM if that's more comfortable..


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## The bishop (Aug 19, 2012)

Your W is very depressed. This needs to be taken seriously... She needs to see a therapist pronto.

She also doesn't love you, and maybe never has. Sorry you are going through this and I understand staying together for the children, but kids are survivors and have two happy homes is better then having none. Not saying your home isn't a happy one, but your marriage sure isn't.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Ugh trapped by her bio-clock. I have a feeling a lot if men get screwed over with that. Anyway im not saying you have to divorce her but if she knows you arent going to lay down any hard or permanent consequences she has no real incentive to change. Thats the number one thing here that seems to work in these situations. Consequences.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

The bishop said:


> She also doesn't love you, and maybe never has.


And sometimes your name chooses you. I am an Idiot!!!~!!


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Idyit, what's the latest? Talk to us. Hope you're OK.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I was going to inquire if you flirt with other women? But the rape thing opens a whole new kettle of fish. Have you had more talks about it?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Sorry for the long absence. A lot has happened but we are pretty much in the same place. We have talked openly about our issues but hers are still hers. She is not willing to confide in me. 

My biggest struggle is that what is wrong in us I can do very little about. She is depressed. I outright demanded that she needs to get IC. She went once. I asked, "How did it go?" and "Did you like her?". About two hours later, defending my questions as cursory and attempting to show concern/involvement, it was conceded that IC was still a good idea. It seems that she does not want to be the one with a problem or have any problem. This goes for any past issues outside of me, her owning responsibility for marital issues or the EA last summer. Maybe she is truly scared of what she might find if she starts to look critically at herself. And she has not gone to counseling since this discussion!!

I want her to get better and be better for her. Right now is the "worse" in "for better of worse". I love my wife and pray for all of us every day. Should we get through this I will have my integrity in check and be proud of how I lead my family by serving them. The other side of this statement is a big "what if" that I can't answer right now.

So I will assume this is my last post in the CWI section as my questions of need have nothing to do with it. 

If any of you have dealt with this or have some advice please feel free to respond.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I hope that's not your last post. Your recovery is a long process, it won't happen quickly, or in a linear progression.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

SadandAngry

Not my last post, just think where I am right now is more appropriate for a different section of TAM. Eventually we will have to more fully address the EA and I may be right back in CWI. At the moment I believe depression and whatever else is lurking in her prevents fully addressing the EA.

The thing that really sucks is that I don't have a nice place to stow the thoughts and concerns. Why I posted yesterday is that I woke up at 3am to a bad dream about the whole thing. In it they're both taunting me. Kind of smirking at my inability to do anything about it. Honestly it's not the person or what transpired that really pisses me off. It's the "why" and "what if". Why did she choose this direction when I'm right there willing to engage and she admits this? What if I did not see it happening as soon as I did? Where would it have progressed or if not with this person who would be the next? As I said above, I'm kinda stuck with this for a bit.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Yes, I understand. Our minds are excellent at torturing ourselves with possibilities and what ifs. I think you have to try not to dwell on them, harder to do than say, but maybe write down the goal, and come up with just the first step towards it, and write that down too, then do it.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks Sad. I appreciate your responses and advice.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Update:
Right at a year since this came to a head and pretty much right back where we started. Not with the EA specifically but similar stuff, pushing me away. 

Two days ago she came into my home office and accused me of looking at porn. This was an issue we addressed a year ago and I have been 99% free for a year and 100% for 6 months. How do you respond to that? I didn't do well. Stared her dead in the eyes and said there is nothing like that going on and 'what the hell?!?' Her response was that I must be guilty because I 'got defensive'.

This I could deal with on it's own but kids and schedule would not give us time to sit down and talk. One of these scheduled events was yesterday. Very large gathering, her and daughters hobby/interest, her circle of friends. Not one introduction, snubbed me and had a couple of 'flirty' conversations with other men right in front of me. (Body language, overdone laughing etc) At this point it's annoying but I blew it off and did my own thing. Tension is obvious but we go to bed without talking.

Huge blow up today with the kids home. I am seriously ashamed of the way I acted. At first it was the wrong look I gave her. Escalated into everything at mach 3. I really got set off when she said I'm not normal and that "nothing happened with him last summer" and there's nothing for her to apologize about. 

No respect. No love. This really looks like it's heading to divorce. I really don't know what to expect in response, just hoping for a nugget of hope I guess.

~Passio


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Even if she's not in an affair right now, per se, she is VERY DISRESPECTFUL toward you. Sort of like the little kid that you tell to stay away from the cookie jar, but they keep inching closer and closer to it to see your reaction.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Does she want to engineer the situation so she can make you look like the bad guy? "My hubby might, conceivably, be looking at porn so I can go get me an affair!"


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

@F-102 - Not sure how to read this really. I agree with your no respect comment but not sure about the cookie jar. If anything it seems more like she's waving the cookie jar around.

@Matt - I am most definitely being painted as the bad guy. At this point it seems more like a reason to D than A.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

The way she treated you the last few days:

*baseless accusation re porn viewing 
*openly flirting with other men in your presence
*snubbing you publicly
*putting you down in your own home

Additionally, she has not made any progress re last summer's shenanigans. 

Friend, you don't have a wife. Not at all. How long are you willing to put with this? 

In your shoes, I'd see a lawyer and determine what your responsibilities and rights are. Also, don't be goaded into leaving either your bedroom or the marital home. 

Initiate the 180 for yourself. But tell her in a calm way that you are seriously considering divorce. You've done what you can as the head of your family to hold the family together. But you won't put up with either hostility or disrespect.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

She may be trying to get a jealous reaction out of you in front of her friends ("See what a jealous control freak I'm married to!").

Or she may be trying to show them what crap you'll put up with ("See what an indecisive wimp I'm married to? He won't even fight for me!").


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> The way she treated you the last few days:
> 
> *baseless accusation re porn viewing
> She would assert that 1+1=5. Puts things together that don't go. In an earlier post I described a time where she thought I was cheating because I had a receipt for a chicken caesar salad, receipt for "Smack my Ass and Call me Sally" (a hotsauce) and cooler. Apparently I took sally to the beach with said cooler, smacked her ass and then had lunch
> ...


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Idyit

Do yourself a favor and keep a VAR in your pocket at all times if she is threatening you, accusing you of misdeeds or actively provoking you.

I think seeing an attorney is a good idea.

Sadly, your wife has issues.

And do not let her disrespect you or make a scene in front of the kids.

Stay calm.

I think your actions all this time have been exemplary.

HM64


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Happy Man thank you for the note and compliment.

I have the Iphone prepped. Didn't think about it before but could prove valuable. This most recent episode was like non-affair gaslighting. "You're crazy!" No!, You're crazy. Might be fun to play the next one back. 

~Passio


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I would have packed up the kids in the car and left her there. You are still letting her control the situation.

Tell her you are looking for a realtor. Remind her she will have to pass a psych exam for the custody hearings.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

*04-2012, 09:58 AM #257 (permalink) 
morituri 
Member


Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,473 Default Re: Not sure what to do 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It think the following story is the Holy Grail of man-up, INMNSHO 


Quote:
Originally Posted by marduk View Post 
I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.

A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.

Thanks in part to the folks on this forum, life is much better now. My wife only goes out with her friends maybe once a month, and the last time she did, she came home early, threw her arms around me, and told me she’s so happy she gets to come home to me. She goes to the gym maybe once or twice a week for an hour or so in the early evening. When she does leave on races out of town the whole family will go on a camping trip together so we can be there for her at the finish line. The stress level in the house is much lower, and our happiness and respect for each other is much higher. Are things perfect? No – we still fight, have conflict, and disagree. But they’re shorter-lived, not has hostile, and just plain don’t seem to hurt so much. What’s changed? Me. Here’s what I learned:

1. Let her go. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. But I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.

2. Set boundaries, and then stick to them. I found in my marriage that it wasn’t ok to say “I don’t want you to do that” but it was ok to say “would you be ok with me doing that?” And then hold her to it. 9 times out of 10 the behaviour would go away on its own if I stuck to it. For example: if it was ok for her to be gone 2-3 nights a week so would I. After a couple of weeks she was dying to sit on the couch and watch a movie after we spent the evening with the kids together. Conversely, if it's within your boundaries, be cool with it. I started to let her off the hook for minor annoyances a lot more which cooled the stress levels.

3. Be ok with losing her. Seriously. After one of our last bad fights before things got better, I reconciled myself to thinking this might be it. The end of our marriage and little family. I thought out how things would be living on my own, sharing custody of the kids, etc. And as tough as it would be, made peace with it. It wouldn’t kill me, it wouldn’t kill my kids. Very negative experience and one I’d like to avoid at all costs, but we would survive. This changed my attitude and clinginess significantly… and to be blunt scared the hell out of my wife. Just last month she told me “I think you’d be more ok without me than I’d be without you.” And for our marriage, that balance of neediness works. I think it’s an alpha male thing, not sure but it seems to work.

4. Do my own thing. I’m out at least once or twice a week doing martial arts, yoga, weights, cross-fit, trail running, hanging with buddies… you name it. Gives me perspective and gives my wife time to miss me. And I’m in kick ass shape compared to last year, and now instead of me worrying about my wife getting hit on I’m having to deal with having her be upset because other women check me out when we go out. I’m going on a weekend martial arts training camp… and my wife couldn’t say a word after going to Vegas last year. Another thing: I make sure I either do something fun with the kids when she goes out (she’ll have to decide if it’s more important to miss out on family fun or friend fun) or I have fun while she’s out. Even something stupid like a scotch and cigar in the back yard when the kids go to bed so I can kick back and listen to the complete lack of complaining about the cigar stink. Ahh…

5. Be a father to our children. Not just “quality” time but real time. Conversations, walks in the park, helping with homework, taking them to soccer, etc. all seemed to help big time. Not just with my wife, but with all of us. And I also found my “father voice,” the voice of discipline and reason in the family. My kids listen to me a lot more, not in fear, but they know they have to listen. Now my wife comes to me when the kids don’t listen to her, not the other way around.

6. Get some buddies. Guys need close guy friends to do guy stuff. Complain about their wives. Be stupid and macho. Whatever that means to you, it worked wonders for me.

7. Fight different. Walk away rather than blow up. Mean what you say and stand up to it. For example, if I threaten that if she keeps doing x that means I'll do y, then I bloody well do y if she does x. This had two effects: I thought about what I said more, and so did my wife. I think my wife has a need to be able to hold me at my word, even if that’s a bad thing. Not sure why. Using few words in a fight, slowly and quietly while looking her directly in the eye seems to also work. Once it’s said, don’t repeat it. It is what it is.

8. Act from a place of strength. I don’t think my wife wants a weakling. She may say that she’ll want me to be more intimate, vulnerable, etc… I think that’s actually BS. Or at least that she doesn’t mean weak or actually vulnerable. If you have flaws or weaknesses either accept it and move on or fix it. I don’t let my wife try to fix my flaws any more. If she brings something up and tries to fix it I’ll ask her to mind her own business (gently). Not a behaviour that impacts her, those I’ll always try to listen to her on. But I don't let her judge me or try to live up to her expectations any more. I define myself, I don't let her do that for me.

9. Be decisive. Again I think this is an alpha male thing. Make plans. I planned a few date nights, and didn’t ask what she wanted to do. Instead I planned stuff I thought might be fun for us, and asked if she was having a good time. She was, especially if it was stuff she didn’t normally like to do (one time we went to a tattoo expo – I have one small tattoo and she has none – but got us out of our element and we had a blast!) Now if she asks me “what do you want to do” I answer with what I want. Works in bed too – I just made sure she felt comfortable in saying “no.” Don’t bully, be decisive and adaptable.

10. Know what I want from life. This is hard in today’s world. I had to pull my head out of my ass and figure out that I don’t want to sit on the couch every night and watch TV. So now I don’t. At least not every night.

11. Do more macho stuff. Fix something around the house. Dig a big hole in the back yard and plant a tree. Fixing her car, for example, seemed to turn a light bulb on in my wife’s head that reminded me that I’m a man and not one of her girlfriends.

So that’s my list. Hope it helps some of the guys out there. Your mileage may vary, and my marriage may still fail, but I’m in a much better spot in the past year than I have been in a long, long time.

Thanks for everything!*


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear Idyit (boy, do I dislike your user name), she checked out of your marriage a year ago and so far, despite all your efforts, has not checked back in. I know you want to save your marriage but it's time to reconsider your unwillingness to put D on the table. At the very least, consult a good divorce attorney and learn what divorce would cost you financially and w/r/t to access to your children. Armed with that information, you can better decide when "enough is enough." My guess is that, unless you send her a really big wake-up call, that's where you're headed anyway.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Once a cheater, always a cheater. A person rationalized it once, they will again. This is a moral choice made by one person, and one person only. Their compass allowed them to do it, and that compass doesn't change, ever. I've been cheated on so many times it's pathetic, and the one constant I always found is that no matter how much you want to believe it won't happen again, you will be wrong. I can't say it enough times in enough different ways.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Kaboom said:


> Once a cheater, always a cheater.


Once someone cheats they will always have cheated, but to say that everyone who cheats will always do so again is false. That's like saying that all alcoholics will relapse, which simply isn't the case. Blanket statements like this just can't be made with accuracy, and certainly not based on one persons experience.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Tell her you are looking for a realtor. Remind her she will have to pass a psych exam for the custody hearings.


Fire is a good test of a thing. We have had some conversations (confrontations) recently and I did bring up some legal issues related to division of assets. It was kind of a pre-nuke of her thought processes. She did not even consider that I would have legal right to even half! Assumed that she would keep the residence etc and I would just go away. Some fog definitely lifted after this conversation.

As to the psych exam, this would be full on nuke. If it should ever come down to this sort of nasty I'm not sure I could do it. She is truly an incredible mother and honestly I see our issues exacerbated more by emotional immaturity than 'unfitness'.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> *04-2012, 09:58 AM #257 (permalink)
> morituri
> Member
> 
> ...


I thought I responded to this but now see nothing. This is a fantastic approach and reasoned response to a flailing marriage. Much of this has been implemented and still working on a lot of it. 

Numbers 1, 2 and 3 resonate really strong for me. It astounds me to look at what a nice guy I've been with her. It's like a Mr. Hyde / Mr. Rogers existence with my work and home life. Working on balancing this out with myself and making her aware.

Thank you for the note.

~Passio


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Once someone cheats they will always have cheated, but to say that everyone who cheats will always do so again is false. That's like saying that all alcoholics will relapse, which simply isn't the case. Blanket statements like this just can't be made with accuracy, and certainly not based on one persons experience.


Hope, you beat me to it. I do see cheating as a major moral line that has been crossed and doing so without consequence makes it easier in the future. BUT there are a ton of former waywards on this site that seem to have changed. There are also many stories by BSs that relate true reconciliation.

To Kaboom. You said, "I've been cheated on so many times it's pathetic". Yes, I would agree that if after a couple of times striking oneself on the thumb with a hammer it's time to change things up. My challenge is not whether my wife will go down a road of cheating again. This I have assured myself and her that under no circumstances will I allow myself or her to get emotional and/or physical needs(wants, desires) met by an OSF.

The issue before me is, can we have a full and fulfilling marriage. Does she have the capacity to see beyond the disappointment of ours and the sub-par marriages she sees around us? And will to make her, me and us better.

Finally, I have to translate 'always a cheater' into always a _________ (nice guy, poor communicator, weak leader at home etc) If inclination to cheat is somehow more ingrained or deeper then Kaboom may be right. It's certainly more hurtful but is real change any harder in the other things we do?

People do occasionally change for the better. They see what they've already lost, what they will lose, desire for something bigger or better, take meds, lift from depression or as I've said elsewhere they realize they're already dead and have nothing to lose. My thoughts are that no one does what they don't want to do. Even if it sucks they've found it better, easier, more convenient, gave up, whatever - than to do the opposite. Maybe it's one or both of identifying the suck or an alternative but that is what creates motivation to change. Without motivation you're just following a recipe and your cake will a tin full of dog crap.

I feel better. Thanks

~Passio


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

How does her being a trust fund baby play into all of this?

Was one of her parents also a trust fund baby? Did either of her parents work? What was her upbringing like? What was her home like as a child?

There is a wide range of wealth and leisure with trust fund families, but at the extreme end it can be quite dysfunctional.

Past rape ultimately resulting in abortion also will leave quite an impact, and not in a good way, on relationships with the opposite sex. What type of therapy did she have after this happened to her? She would have needed some type of counseling. The fact that she kept it secret from you either means it's very important or not important at all. I'm thinking the former.

Even before her emotional affair, you were getting close to zero sex. Did you ever get much sexual passion or ENTHUSIASM from her?

If your marriage was at one time in the past what you would consider "normal" as far as sex and affection go, at what point did it change and could you venture a guess as to why?

I understand how busy you can get in life and how kids can interfere with finding a chunk of time to communicate, but have you ever straight-out asked your wife why she doesn't want to fvck you? Have you asked her if she feels sex is a basic obligation spouses have to each other as part of the marriage contract? Have you flat out asked her if she loves you? "I love you, but I never hear you say you love me. Do you love me?"

I am assuming that this has nothing to do with an emotional affair at this point and everything to do with you, your past, her, her past, her upbringing.

Back off on the remorse for the emotional affair for a while. Back off on the lack of introductions. Back off on the flirting with other men. Just stop bringing them up for a few days, for a week. You can always bring them up later. Focus on your current relationship, the one you have when you are alone in the house after the kids are in bed, and talk to your wife about that relationship. Start there. What do you think it should be? Watching TV together? Talking? Sex? Working out? What does she think it should be? What should your marriage look like? Try to stay calm and leave divorce and threats out of it for the time being. Try to get to know her and what she wants out of life. Bring up her comments about you just being there at a time when her clock was ticking and ask her if she really meant that.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Also, you mentioned looking at porn and her referring to it as cheating, and you seem to have pooh-poohed it as not a legitimate complaint.

It doesn't seem like you've spent a lot of time with porn, but what does your wife honestly feel about it.

A lot of women have a real big problem with it and many do, in fact, look at it as a form of cheating.

What does your wife feel about this?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Will Kane you are an evil genius. There is a lot of insight and correct thinking in what you've said. I'll have to take some time to digest your post and give you a good response.

Thank you.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Ramble --> *Discussion about why she took off engagement ring. She was pissed at me.*  Clearly told her that this needs to get fixed...hour or so of discussion. *Two days later still not wearing it. * Call me an Idyit but that's a flag with some red on it! Her - "I didn't think about it.." "You could have made it right by giving it back/returning... doing it right this time..." **it's my fault**
> 
> More ramble --> Her - *"Can't we just move on and forget about this stuff?"* Huh? No!
> 
> More Ramble --> Brings up stuff from 15 years ago (see above). Her - "You looked at porn. That's cheating with another woman." (I've seen nekkid boobies about 5 times in 9 months / not hers)


The wedding ring thing is pretty significant to most women. It shows that she no longer considers herself married to you.

"I'm pissed at you" doesn't explain it, not at all. We all get pissed at our spouses, we still consider ourselves married and have no intention of ending the marriage over it. For a woman to do this is a very significant sign, it's her telling herself she's completely done with you. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the ring thing means about 10 times more to women than men, at least in my experience.

I don't think most cheating women even take off their wedding rings, it would be too big a giveaway to their husbands. There are women who don't care about wedding rings very much and find it gets in the way of doing household tasks, but these women would never use "I'm pissed" as a reason.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> How does her being a trust fund baby play into all of this?
> 
> Was one of her parents also a trust fund baby? Did either of her parents work? What was her upbringing like? What was her home like as a child?
> 
> ...


I have backed off the details and relatively small things. This is in keeping with the 180 as described in the post above. I'm working on getting comfortable with me again. Being a better version of me regardless of how my marriage pans out. What I want out of marriage and what she wants seem to be at odds with each other. 

I want a lover, confidante, best friend. I want to care for her, adore her and feel it back. I want to show my kids what marriage should look like. I want to meet her wants needs and desires and have it returned. Her actions and words are that she wants something that looks like a roommate. 

But when I take my hurt and pride out of it I see that she just does not want to confront the negatives. Negatives is a mild term for all of the terrible things she's harbored and good she's given up on. I do love my wife and am willing to put aside my wants and desires to serve her.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> Also, you mentioned looking at porn and her referring to it as cheating, and you seem to have pooh-poohed it as not a legitimate complaint.
> 
> It doesn't seem like you've spent a lot of time with porn, but what does your wife honestly feel about it.
> 
> ...


Not sure that I pooh poohed it as illegitimate. Until a year go I never committed to completely eradicating it. Was it a legitimate complaint of hers, yes. I justified my actions based on a lack of affection and sex. It was selfish and it produced a lot of distrust. Like I said, it's not where I am now and know I have a lot of work to do in this area. And I have completely backed off on all but a soft hug and a short kiss


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> The wedding ring thing is pretty significant to most women. It shows that she no longer considers herself married to you.
> 
> "I'm pissed at you" doesn't explain it, not at all. We all get pissed at our spouses, we still consider ourselves married and have no intention of ending the marriage over it. For a woman to do this is a very significant sign, it's her telling herself she's completely done with you. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the ring thing means about 10 times more to women than men, at least in my experience.
> 
> I don't think most cheating women even take off their wedding rings, it would be too big a giveaway to their husbands. There are women who don't care about wedding rings very much and find it gets in the way of doing household tasks, but these women would never use "I'm pissed" as a reason.


Honestly I'd like to dig into this one but won't for now. A couple of things do soften the blow. First, she never took off the wedding band, just the engagement band. For a time this was reasonable because the setting was damaged. Maybe I'm an idiot and missing more but it seems there are bigger fish to fry.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Thank you for taking the time to ask such penetrating questions and making me think. You're a good man Will Kane. 

~Passio


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You need to seriously reconsider being willing to set aside your needs and desires to serve hers. To do so sets up an unhealthy relationship that will likely breed resentment. passive aggression and frustration all around.

Do you find yourself subverting or denying your needs often already? Do you think that if you can manage to keep things smooth, life should be good?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Idyit said:


> Honestly I'd like to dig into this one but won't for now. A couple of things do soften the blow. First, she never took off the wedding band, just the engagement band. For a time this was reasonable because the setting was damaged. Maybe I'm an idiot and missing more but it seems there are bigger fish to fry.


There will always be other fish and other demands upon you, especially from her as she puts herself as the top priority in the relationship.

Be careful not to use these other demands as an excuse to put off your own personally valuable tasks.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

You said she doesn't want anyone to tell her what to do, rely on anyone, or let you do anything for her. If this mindset doesn't change you won't have a successful marriage. Imo, this is your biggest problem.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> There will always be other fish and other demands upon you, especially from her as she puts herself as the top priority in the relationship.
> 
> Be careful not to use these other demands as an excuse to put off your own personally valuable tasks.


This, I fear she will move the target or put it on another set of excuses. Let's wait.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

All good points above. I will serve my wife in these areas for a time. An indefinite or lifestyle change would be akin to chastity and servitude. That's not what I signed up for.

Bfree nailed it. Selfishness. We are all selfish in some way by our nature. What I haven't done is really pin that tag on my wife. She's amazingly selfless with the kids and is constantly volunteering for all kinds of stuff with school, community and activities. The ****e end of the stick belongs to me.

We had a pretty sobering conversation last night. No threats of loud anger. The trigger of the fight never really is what "it" is about. When I refused to sucked into the vortex and focused on what she was saying, her responses, she ran out of excuses. It was interesting to see her wheels spin.

I never called her selfish. What she did was identify that she does not see us as equals. We are not co-partner/parent, captain and co-captain or whatever. She IDd it, addressed it and seems willing to work on it. I'll be interested to see if there is any action to follow.

I'm a patient man and will give appropriate time to see if we are really going anywhere.

Let's wait and see.

~Passio


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm still interested to hear more from the ladies on this. Your perspective and insight would be greatly appreciated.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Idyit said:


> First, thanks for being here. I’ve done a lot of reading and learning on this site and it’s helped to preserve my sanity. This forum in particular has shown me what my gut was telling me. Stats: Married 15 years (both 44), 3 kids (10, 12 and 14). She’s a stay at home mom. I’ve done startups to Fortune 500, currently building my own business.
> 
> Last summer, after a few tumultuous years in our marriage my wife said she is done with me and wants me out. I’ll take the hit for prior poor communication and not manning up.
> …too long for now but will elaborate if necessary. Sibling death, career ups and downs, move away from family/friends (to her home state / family), starting new business and financial instability while attempting to keep everyone happy resulted in my beta way overpowering my alpha.
> ...


Ok, will read the rest of your thread but I think either her lover told her about you and ended it/dumped her or they took it underground. Not confronting wasn't a very smart move


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Once someone cheats they will always have cheated, but to say that everyone who cheats will always do so again is false. That's like saying that all alcoholics will relapse, which simply isn't the case. Blanket statements like this just can't be made with accuracy, and certainly not based on one persons experience.


I disagree. I don't think you can compare an addictive behavior to a immoral one. Think about the cheater.. What goes through their mind that propels them from one side of the line to the other?

What makes them cheat? The answer is simple: Justification. They find a way to mentally justify it. Alcoholics are entirely different in that matter- it's not a matter of right and wrong to them, but a matter of personal choice and self destruction (which does collateral damage, but still, it's entirely different).

But anyways- Cheating is wrong. We all know it. Justification is the art of creating a reason to justify an action. A person can justify breaking the law and speeding to rush a critically injured person to the ER. There's a justified reason to do something "wrong". Most things can fall into that category, including alcoholism. I will spare myself and everyone here the long explanation on that. 

The problem with cheating, is that there is NO honest justification for it. There are certainly more compelling, and even understandable, excuses; but never a true-blue reason. But there's most certainly justifications, that are derrived from those former excuses.

The most obvious would be "he cheated on me first".. well then dump him and move on. Why cheat?
I've actually been accused of this one: "You drove me into his arms" AYFKM?
"He beats me", "he ignores me", "She doesn't put out", "Im bored"..

Depending on the moral compass of the individual, each person who justifies cheating may need a minor excuse, or a strong one. *But they are all separated from one thing:* _The person who doesn't cheat_. Never has, never will.  Because they refuse to cross that line. They know it's wrong. They won't compromise their integrity and values. They would dump you first.

The cheater however.. different mindset. They would cheat, under the _*right*_ circumstances. They have before.. they will again.

It's sound logic, not experience. But go ahead and find someone who cheated.. how many times have they cheated? 

Now, there may be a handful of exceptions (there's always exceptions! Always) who cheated and regret it so much that they truly will not do it again, but even they are predisposed to that line of thinking, which makes them suspect at best. I most certainly wouldn't want to be feeling the need to check up on my SO the rest of my life.. it's too exhausting.. and still, were talking about the exceptions.. The general rule doesn't change because of exceptions. So it stands:

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

It's not that they will go out looking for it- it's that when given the choice, their moral compass didn't stop them. Their brain found a convenient detour around the compass and can/will whenever that roadblock comes again.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Still stands: you are wrong, Kaboom.
Moral compass aplies to every single destructive behavior you wrote here too.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I don't understand something. I know this could be a touchy thing to ask and I know that rape is a unforgivable thing to do to anyone, but you said that you, her and your daughters were at a social gathering and she was openly flirting with some other men in front of you. That doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Like I said, I don't know and maybe someone can fill me in on this but I would think that after something as tragic as being raped has happened to a woman, why would she act in such a manner? I would think that after a traumatic event like rape, you would be a little more on the conservative side and not flaunt yourself in that way. I could be totally wrong by asking this and if I offended you or anyone else, then please forgive me. That wasn't my intention.

By the way, if she isn't willing to give you the information you need for peace of mind, tell her your setting up a polygraph test. If she balks at it then you might see that maybe there's more than she's holding back. 

As far as the porn thing goes. That's a lot of crap. If she brings it up again, I would tell her that is she acted a little more like a wife and lover like married people are supposed to do, you wouldn't be looking up "Boobies R Us" on the computer. Everyone at one time will sneak a peek and if they say the haven't, their only lying to themselves


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm not going to even pretend to understand rape from either end. In this case it was more than twenty years ago, before I met my wife. Obviously some recovery took place from that event or she wouldn't have flirted with me. As the one man who has freely committed himself to her I would like us to be able to talk about what this realy did to her, how it effects her and how I can help.

The flirting that took place I take as a sh!t test, fvck you I mad sort of thing. Appropriate, no. But I don't see it as somehow related to or contradictory to events long past. 

As to porn it's not important enough for me to take some sort of stand for. I really don't care as it was infrequent and mostly boredom based. She feels strongly about it to the point of considering it an infidelity. There are too many other more important things for me to focus on to try to repair this marriage. 

Again, ladies I would like to understand the issue of rape better. Your perspective would be most appreciated. How do or did you get back to a healthy view of consensual intimacy? Or did you ever? Did you keep it a secret and what negative effects did this have with your husband? Or were you able to let him in and take part in really caring for you? I'm just asking the questions that come to me. Thanks for anything you feel comfortable sharing. 

~Passio


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Acabado said:


> Still stands: you are wrong, Kaboom.
> Moral compass aplies to every single destructive behavior you wrote here too.


I'm not convinced. I wrote a logical, compelling, well thought out, and reasonable argument to make a viable point. You can't just say "you're wrong" without writing at least a reason why I'm wrong. Moral compass applies to everything? Gosh, well in that case.... (sarcasm). C'mon this isn't rocket science. At least make a counter-argument if you are going to disagree- I took the time, so should you.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Kaboom said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Once a cheater, always a cheater.
> 
> It's not that they will go out looking for it- it's that when given the choice, their moral compass didn't stop them. Their brain found a convenient detour around the compass *and can/will whenever that roadblock comes again*.


I wish I had the time to put together a logical argument to this, but I'm time-limited this afternoon. I reject the notion that cheating is an addictive trait, same as "sex addiction" which has been bantered around popular culture lately. 

ALL things that we do are choices. There are no bottles of booze jumping off the shelves, wrestling you to the ground and forcing you to drink, no drug, same way, etc etc. We all make choices, and we can all stop them. 

One who has cheated knows how to. That's all. But to say once a cheater always a cheater is a sweeping generalization that those of us who have taken logic courses know is a false premise. 

You cite your own experience as part of the argument, as anyone here can. But labels are easy to place, and hard to take off. Moral compass aside, those who choose to do cruel things like set cats on fire or put firecrackers in a frog's butt lean towards doing those things because they don't care about the pain they inflict or the social hit they take. Cheaters of different social strata cheat differently, as well. People who drive too slow and people who drive too fast have that tendency. 

But all make a *choice *to do it. And you can choose poorly or wisely.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kaboom said:


> self back patting


Sometimes the best answer is one that is contrite. It rarely works, but sometimes it saves the thread from a ridiculous derail based on logical fallacies and anger.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

Idyit said:


> Now to the present. Saturday night we have a sit down and whole bunch of stuff get brought up. Deciding that there’s no better time than the present I confront the EA. She defended, targeted me, rationalized and then accepted responsibility. No real remorse was shown. What I got was, “I see that it was wrong and it will never happen again”.
> 
> So what now? Do I push buttons till I get a satisfactory remorse response?


Dr Harley, says that many a WW never show remorse. They can and have recovered and have a good marriage post affair.

I think this affair went physical. I would tell WW time for a polygraph.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

theroad said:


> Dr Harley, says that many a WW never show remorse. They can and have recovered and have a good marriage post affair.


This is why I simply ignore this guys advice regarding infidelity. To me it's mutualy exclusive and ludicrus.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Acabado said:


> This is why I simply ignore this guys advice regarding infidelity. To me it's mutualy exclusive and ludicrus.


QFT
I think he's a quack. All he's doing is telling the betrayed to eat sh1t and get over it.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Perfect song for taking back your stones and moving on. Could be a TAM anthem. 

"Ain't nobody's problem but my own"
"Ain't Nobody's Problem" Sawmill Joe - YouTube


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> I wish I had the time to put together a logical argument to this, but I'm time-limited this afternoon. I reject the notion that cheating is an addictive trait, same as "sex addiction" which has been bantered around popular culture lately.
> 
> ALL things that we do are choices. There are no bottles of booze jumping off the shelves, wrestling you to the ground and forcing you to drink, no drug, same way, etc etc. We all make choices, and we can all stop them.
> 
> ...


But choice is the illusion. You believe I'm drawing conclusions simply from my limited personal experience. That is not accurate. My personal experience, as well as witnessing family and friends experiences only brought the patterns to my attention.

The rest is simply a leap of psychology- I've always said a similar phrase (after deep thought), that once an a-hole, always an a-hole. Have you ever known an massive a-hole to somehow change who they are? No. Generally people are "wired", and every tiny bit of wiring (personality traits) adds to the overall individual. 

We ARE wired for change, but those changes we accept in our lives are simply environmental. Which is why someone can beat an addiction like alcohol or gambling, but not necessarily change the fact that they are susceptible to the addictions themselves.

The same wiring defines our moral code, in the sense of overall empathy, temperament, and entirely affects the end result so that when we are placed with a moral decision, we, as a person, are going to be inclined to make that decision, based on that wiring, which in each of our lives, is a very consistent mean to measure against.

Therefore, once someone makes the decision that cheating is okay because of "X" justification, that the justification itself can be inhibited in the future is certainly feasible, but the fact that the person had used a justification (to give an excuse to make a decision they knew to be immoral) speaks strictly to their wiring, and such a person (who is wired that way) will consistently find a "justification" each time they are presented with something they want, but that is immoral, in their own minds, changing it to a "just" decision instead of "immoral". 

Like I said, an A-hole is wired that way, and always will be. So is a cheater. More often than not the fear of loss or punishment is the only thing stopping them.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Kaboom said:


> But choice is the illusion. You believe I'm drawing conclusions simply from my limited personal experience. That is not accurate. My personal experience, as well as witnessing family and friends experiences only brought the patterns to my attention.
> 
> The rest is simply a leap of psychology- I've always said a similar phrase (after deep thought), that once an a-hole, always an a-hole. Have you ever known an massive a-hole to somehow change who they are? No. Generally people are "wired", and every tiny bit of wiring (personality traits) adds to the overall individual.
> 
> ...


. I've seen people, through circumstances, go from very nice people to complete A-holes and vice versa. We will disagree.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

You can rewire your brain. Science had proven that you can forcefully create new neural pathways for certain behaviors and once those pathways become the primary signal carriers the old pathways shrink and die off. So can the leopard change it's spots. No. But he can change how he thinks of those spots.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

OK. I tried to re-jack my own thread by putting up the song link above but it didn't work. 

Here's my spin on the "always a cheater" debate. People deal with crappy things in good ways or bad. Cheating is always a bad way to deal with whatever the WS wants to blame it on. Are they flawed? YES! Is this the unchangeable trait/characteristic/habit...whatever? I don't really know. People do show remorse and if they're fortunate that they and their partner both see a value greater in their union than in dissolution they have a chance at re-building.

I am choosing to not look at my wife as THE problem. She has many things that have been buried and more that are apparent to us both that make make our marriage difficult. But I cannot make her change and won't try. I will love her with all that I have with the exception of coddling, pedestalizing, bowing, kissing butt or otherwise being a punching bag excuse for her own shortcomings.

I will look at myself, where I have fallen short of my own standards. My problems are my own and as the song goes, "I ain't nobody's problem but my own." If in our marriage does not last the test of time it's my face that will be in the mirror and I intend to smile back.

As to the song and band, they were kind of cathartic. For a long time my love of live music, the atmosphere and passion of performers has been stalled because my wife doesn't share the love. I took my son to a concert recently and then to a music festival. It was a great time to be me and do what I want. Son is a music lover too and had a great time. Anyway the music of this band was heartfelt, some of it just heart wrenching. Exactly what the blues should be. I loved it.

The song "Ain't Nobody's Problem" is about letting go. It hurts because of the investment of time, money, heart, body and soul but in the end I'm my own problem. Here's the line that seemed to scream at me.

"In my heart I know it's true that I can't go on loving you. That's a truth that don't feel good but hunny it feels right"

I can't go on 'loving' her the way that I did. It hurts to let the illusion go, like waking up from a bad dream and realizing it's true. Reality is that right now I work on me, my problems as my own. 

She may see the value in our union and me. If she doesn't?? I'm preparing for whatever is next. Thank you Sawmill Joe for putting the 180 to song.

Sawmill Joe - Ain't Nobody's Problem (Single) - YouTube

~Passio


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

bfree said:


> You can rewire your brain. Science had proven that you can forcefully create new neural pathways for certain behaviors and once those pathways become the primary signal carriers the old pathways shrink and die off. So can the leopard change it's spots. No. But he can change how he thinks of those spots.


Never meant to imply that there aren't exceptions to the rules- Look hard enough at any rule, and you will always find a varying percentage of exceptions. My thoughts on the a-holes and cheaters are that by the very means of the thought process and narcissism that is clearly part of the overall character, these people generally don't see a problem with themselves, thus can't or won't change because of that. 

The one exception I see most often would be the guy or girl who cheats, gets caught, and under the threat of permanent loss, will not cheat again, but even in that case, can you really back up the claim that they "changed"? I don't think so; they may be remorseful, they may never actually cheat again, but the personality traits that led them to initially justify it will still be there, so maybe a handful won't, but I suspect an equal amount do cheat again and just are more careful not to be caught.

Who can say? My whole point is that the person who violated your trust cannot be trusted not to ever do it again. And who wants to spend the rest of their lives worrying about it and constantly stressing over red flags? Not this guy.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

*Re: Re: By the way, that EA you had last summer...*



Kaboom said:


> Never meant to imply that there aren't exceptions to the rules- Look hard enough at any rule, and you will always find a varying percentage of exceptions. My thoughts on the a-holes and cheaters are that by the very means of the thought process and narcissism that is clearly part of the overall character, these people generally don't see a problem with themselves, thus can't or won't change because of that.
> 
> The one exception I see most often would be the guy or girl who cheats, gets caught, and under the threat of permanent loss, will not cheat again, but even in that case, can you really back up the claim that they "changed"? I don't think so; they may be remorseful, they may never actually cheat again, but the personality traits that led them to initially justify it will still be there, so maybe a handful won't, but I suspect an equal amount do cheat again and just are more careful not to be caught.
> 
> Who can say? My whole point is that the person who violated your trust cannot be trusted not to ever do it again. And who wants to spend the rest of their lives worrying about it and constantly stressing over red flags? Not this guy.


My background is in dealing with not only those that have experienced infidelity but all manner of relationship problems as well as dealing with substance abuse and mental emotional issues. I can tell you first hand that people do change and its not as uncommon as you might think. As far as trust issues go I can tell you some stories but what I learned is that someone who has previously violated your trust is really no more likely to violate it again than someone who hasn't. As humans we are flawed and breaking someone's trust is all too easy. However I think you might be referring to blind trust and to that I'll say this. Anyone who blindly trusts anyone else is a fool. Keep in mind that there is always the possibility of being betrayed by anyone. Some may call that cynical. I simply see it as prudent.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

bfree said:


> My background is in dealing with not only those that have experienced infidelity but all manner of relationship problems as well as dealing with substance abuse and mental emotional issues. I can tell you first hand that people do change and its not as uncommon as you might think. *As far as trust issues go I can tell you some stories but what I learned is that someone who has previously violated your trust is really no more likely to violate it again than someone who hasn't.* As humans we are flawed and breaking someone's trust is all too easy. However I think you might be referring to blind trust and to that I'll say this. Anyone who blindly trusts anyone else is a fool. Keep in mind that there is always the possibility of being betrayed by anyone. Some may call that cynical. I simply see it as prudent.


bfree,

If what you say were true, why would we have words like "trustworthy" and "untrustworthy"? How could society function if everybody were equally trustworthy (or untrustworthy)? Were Jesus and Buddha no more to be trusted than Genghis Khan and Adolph Hitler? Would you have no more trust in your mother than someone who robbed you house?

Sorry, but that statement is patently absurd and I can't imagine that you really believe it.

Did you mean perhaps something else?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> bfree,
> Sorry, but that statement is patently absurd and I can't imagine that you really believe it.


No, it really isn't that absurd. IMO, he's basically saying there is no hard and fast rule on who will or will not betray you nor, is there a rule that says the betrayer will do it again. 



> Gowdwin's Law


I'm not touching this one.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> bfree,
> 
> If what you say were true, why would we have words like "trustworthy" and "untrustworthy"? How could society function if everybody were equally trustworthy (or untrustworthy)? Were Jesus and Buddha no more to be trusted than Genghis Khan and Adolph Hitler? Would you have no more trust in your mother than someone who robbed you house?
> 
> ...


There are scumbags in the world. Low lifes. People of poor moral character. Azzholes. Would you trust any of them? Of course not. Because they are not trustworthy. Therefore you would never be betrayed by any of them because you wouldn't trust them in the first place.

Then there are people of good moral character. People who are generally decent folks. People who would give you the shirt off their backs and help you out in a pinch. But sometimes they screw up. Sometimes they can let you down. Sometimes they betray your trust. These people are generally hurt by their behavior. These people are ashamed. These people want to atone for their mistakes and poor decisions. They are no more likely to betray you than someone of similar character that hasn't betrayed you.....yet. They might have betrayed you but they are still trustworthy.

I have seen this play out over and over again. People who screw up being given a second chance and proving to be reliable, dependable, ethical, honest and yes trustworthy.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

bfree said:


> There are scumbags in the world. Low lifes. People of poor moral character. Azzholes. Would you trust any of them? Of course not. Because they are not trustworthy. Therefore you would never be betrayed by any of them because you wouldn't trust them in the first place.
> 
> Then there are people of good moral character. People who are generally decent folks. People who would give you the shirt off their backs and help you out in a pinch. But sometimes they screw up. Sometimes they can let you down. Sometimes they betray your trust. *These people are generally hurt by their behavior. These people are ashamed. These people want to atone for their mistakes and poor decisions. *They are no more likely to betray you than someone of similar character that hasn't betrayed you.....yet. They might have betrayed you but they are still trustworthy.
> 
> I have seen this play out over and over again. People who screw up being given a second chance and proving to be reliable, dependable, ethical, honest and yes trustworthy.


The bolded part is the key, isn't it?


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

bfree,

I agree with you completely.

The only caveat I would add to that, however, is that there are indeed some things a person might do to me that are so bad they are truly unforgivable.

The amount of remorse, penance, or 'heavy lifting' the offender did in such a situation would be meaningless.

They will never, ever receive another chance, and the injury they have done will never be forgiven and placed in the past.

Some people (and I count myself among them) see infidelity as one of these 'bridge too far' actions/situations.

It sucks for the truly remorseful WS in those cases, because they will never earn the chance to make amends and rebuild what they shattered.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> bfree,
> 
> I agree with you completely.
> 
> ...


I agree totally. If a betrayal was so egregious to the betrayed that it is a deal breaker than that, as they say, is that. Nobody has a right to a second chance. If it is offered it is a tremendous gift. My original point was not whether their original transgression was forgivable but whether they were more likely to betray again. I don't believe that is the case and my personal experiences back that up.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

The sails of my marriage continue to flutter on a glassy sea. No breeze to move us forward and no swell to rock the boat. Until I came across a note written by my wife to our daughter. It was more of journal entry than something intended to be delivered but pretty revealing anyway.

“Daughter (13). Here’s my advice to you – whatever you do DO NOT EVER get married! It will ruin your life! My mom was a fun happy person before she got married and then angry and resentful for 25 years… Me too! I used to be fun and enjoy life – now I’m not! 

I can’t do or say anything –” Wife

My thoughts:

-	This is not advice. This is a rant where marriage, specifically to me (maybe any man?) is the cause.
-	Daughter will not benefit from ever hearing this. It will make her feel that she was not a product of love but rather convenience and misery.
-	Many people have had miserable marriages for many reasons. 
o	Not emotionally mature. 
o	Did not communicate well
o	Never really loved partner
o	Social, financial, spiritual changes
o	Infidelity
o	Married for convenience

-	Many people have long fulfilling marriages because they either did not have the above obstacles or they learned together how to overcome them.
-	It’s not marriage that will ruin your life. Going in with unobtainable expectations or unprepared to actually be a partner will make for some grueling years.
-	Your mom may have been happy prior to marriage. I have no way to prove or disprove this.
-	Your mom conceived a child out of wedlock. This was not your fathers child. He may or may not have known this but he did raise her and love her as his own.
-	Your mom chose your dad out of convenience because he would be a good father to her children, which he was. She did not marry him as a partner, friend, lover or even husband. 
-	Your mom most likely felt a great deal of guilt over the deception to her parents and family, this might even extend to your dad. Concealing this profound of a deception would harmful to her and the marriage. Bad combo.
-	Your mom is still angry and resentful. She’s on husband #3 who for all appearances is a stand in for the initial sperm donor. She is irrational with all of her children, has no real relationship with them, alienated from your brother for years, accuses your sister of theft in her house when it’s most likely the pos husband, defends pos husband when he physically abused our child and on and on. 
-	You too. Yes you are resentful and angry. At me for where we are today. This without any look in the mirror to evaluate your role in our marriage. Even repeating the statement that you "have done nothing wrong to cause any problem in our marriage". More importantly you do not even look at yourself as a factor in your unhappiness. I can’t make you happy! It is beyond my capability or anyone’s for that matter.
-	You used to enjoy life. True your were a vibrant, beautiful, warm, mysterious, engaging, funny, smart, talented, ambitious woman when I met you. Many of these are still with you today. You are not happy. You are resentful.

You did not un-learn the negative teachings about marriage and relationships from your mother. Now you, your children and I suffer the consequences of both hers and your behavior. Without professional help there doesn't seem to be a remedy. I will move forward for myself and do everything I can to shield my sons and daughter. I do love you but both of us need to work an change if our marriage is to continue.

I apologize for the random, lengthy post but needed to vent a bit myself. More and more I feel myself in the position of AWAKE. (minus the serial cheating) Moving more toward the acceptance that my marriage will not heal and making plans to move on. Despite the overwhelming pain of seeing my life without my children I do not want them to repeat this poor example.

The feedback I could use: Have you been here and recovered? Have you been here and moved on? How did you push past the letting go of your kids? If you haven't been here yourself do you see this as a 'done' marriage or can it be salvaged? Anyone, insight into what my wife is going through, how to approach it? Heck, any feedback at all would be appreciated.

~Passio


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Idyit said:


> A few more things that have emerged in the last week:
> - "I got married because my bio clock was ticking and you were there" this may be a bit of a paraphrase..


This is what you posted a few months back..

You too were a sperm donor?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

@Warlock. The reference to sperm donor above is the father of my wife's oldest sister. Don't know if he ever knew the situation or has yet to acknowledge. Can't fault or call him a POS because I just don't know. HE is definitely a sperm donor in context. 

I get what you're trying to say about me as well. The more I face all this stuff the more it looks like I was nothing more than sperm, comfort, protection, paycheck, physical labor and handyman donor.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Do not let go of your kids. Try to win custody, don't settle for less than 50/50. Be the best father you can, by being the best person you can. Do not fall into the trap of bitterness and anger. Your kids will see the reality.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

If my wife ever wrote a note like that I would go see an attorney, get d papers, go to the bank and take my half of the money.

I would have her served and when she came home all her clothes would be in trash bags on the front lawn.

I would put the note on them that she gave your daughter.

"Good luck on your new life.

No need to come in and say good bye."


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

The idea that someone who has betrayed you is as likely to do it again, as someone who has not, is ridiculous. It also depends on the consequences the wayward faces.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

bfree said:


> Keep in mind that there is always the possibility of being betrayed by anyone. Some may call that cynical. I simply see it as prudent.


On this, we wholly agree.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Idyit said:


> The sails of my marriage continue to flutter on a glassy sea. No breeze to move us forward and no swell to rock the boat. Until I came across a note written by my wife to our daughter. It was more of journal entry than something intended to be delivered but pretty revealing anyway.
> 
> “Daughter (13). Here’s my advice to you – whatever you do DO NOT EVER get married! It will ruin your life! My mom was a fun happy person before she got married and then angry and resentful for 25 years… Me too! I used to be fun and enjoy life – now I’m not!
> 
> ...


I think marriage as a whole is a sham. I agree with the woman on this one. While maybe it was in poor taste to write it as such in a note, I wouldn't have any issue if she discussed it with the daughter in a calm, rational, and open format- and gave enough room for the teen to make up her own mind. 

Living is all about being armed with good information, and using critical thinking skills to make the best decisions. IMHO marriage is a poor conclusion to a badly made decision. 

I know most here will call me a whole list of names, question my character, etc.. I've most certainly not done myself any favors by being honest about my feelings on such topics. But isn't that the rub? Everyone is so dishonest about their true feelings because society tells them it's wrong to think those thoughts or feel that way, when really- there's nothing wrong with feeling this way. If nothing else, accepting your (my) feelings, voicing them, and even acting on them, has been nothing short of liberating. But most still live in their pretend-worlds.

Back to the point- Marriage is a bad deal. It's like being 8 years old again. You go from being a complete individual- independent, free to live your daily life as you see fit. You make your own decisions about everything, and live with the consequences of those decisions, with nobody else to blame but yourself. 

But you get married, and suddenly, you have to check in with mom. You need permission to go to billy's house. You have to do your chores on someone else's time-frames. Every single decision you ever make again in your life will not be your decision, but a compromised decision through your "better half", oftentimes, it will be their decision that was rammed down your throat.

It's like taking everything that made you an individual, your personal freedom, and hand-cuffing it to the radiator in the basement. You will be corrected when you speak. You will be nagged about your fashion sense, musical taste, artistic taste. That picture with dogs playing poker will be removed from your wall, have no doubt.. and it will never see the light of day again, until you sell it at the yard sale, of course. The same yard sale will also include everything else you used to possess when you had your own opinion and decision making capabilities. That now belongs to someone else. 

Might as well buy the plot and arrange the funeral for the entity that was once you. You are now compromised, and the tool of another. Retain too much of your individuality, and you find yourself in divorce court, having your clock cleaned by the person who supposedly loved you- you were their one and only, but since they couldn't change you enough to their liking, they decided that love equals hard cash, and you don't deserve it. None of it. Have kids? You don't deserve them either, even though you will most certainly pay enough money to completely shelter, clothe, and feed them. But you are only allowed to mingle with them based on a schedule that is deemed most convenient to your former 'one and only'.

Marriage has no point. It's a bad investment. More than half of all marriages fail, and you are doubling-down a bet. Would you cash out every liquid asset you own, go to the casino, and play a roulette table where you bet on red, and if you lose, you really lose it all, and if you win, you really gain nothing but being mentally chained to a radiator? Imagine if marriage was on the stock market.. it would make sub-prime mortgages look like a great investment..in 2009, by comparison.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

Idyit said:


> The sails of my marriage continue to flutter on a glassy sea. No breeze to move us forward and no swell to rock the boat. Until I came across a note written by my wife to our daughter. It was more of journal entry than something intended to be delivered but pretty revealing anyway.
> 
> “Daughter (13). Here’s my advice to you – whatever you do DO NOT EVER get married! It will ruin your life! My mom was a fun happy person before she got married and then angry and resentful for 25 years… Me too! I used to be fun and enjoy life – now I’m not!
> 
> ...


How can you stay married to a woman like this.

1. She's a terribly misguided mother. I was originally going to say bad mother, but I won't go that far. A parent's job is to raise a child with the minimum number of mental issues by the time they leave the house. Everyone is going to have SOMETHING wrong LOL. But the parent shouldn't be adding to it unnecessarily. Your wife is messing with your daughter's head.

2. What does this say about you and your vows to her?

I couldn't be married to a woman who was SO INCREDIBLY resentful of me and at the same time screwing up my daughter.

I'd walk in the room with the note and say, "I'm sorry you're so miserable, let's not pretend any longer. You don't like this marriage, and I really don't like you any longer."


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> How can you stay married to a woman like this.
> 
> 1. She's a terribly misguided mother. I was originally going to say bad mother, but I won't go that far. A parent's job is to raise a child with the minimum number of mental issues by the time they leave the house. Everyone is going to have SOMETHING wrong LOL. But the parent shouldn't be adding to it unnecessarily. Your wife is messing with your daughter's head.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't stay married to a woman like that. 

I apologize for using your situation to propel me onto a soapbox- I was generalizing, not speaking of your situation specifically. I can sympathize with a parent who wants to warn their child, although in your case, I can see her obvious desire to hurt you.

On your second point- what does that say about me, by voicing those thoughts? I took the vows seriously, and in good faith. I considered those vows broken once it became apparent that she did not respect me, and treated me like a jerk. When she said things to me that nobody would ever say to someone they truly loved, I realized that she had already abandoned those vows. Why cling to a dead horse and hope it will ride you off into the sunset? That's impossible.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read Bagdon and GutPunch

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Idyit said:


> - "I got married because my bio clock was ticking and you were there" .


Would be a deal breaker for me. She hoped she might fall in love but never did. No man who pursued her was ever good enough. Sadly, some woman author wrote a book on the need to settle for Mr Good Enough. 

Society has created enormous expectations. In the meanwhile rich, handsome, educated men are in short supply

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

For clarification, not defense, I want it to be clear that the note to D was not delivered and seemed to be a venting journal entry. This does not change the message though. She's angry, frustrated and full of self pity. And I am the targeted cause. None of this is logical. 

Like every other spouse in a far less than ideal marriage I carry my own blame but it does not add up to the venom received. Pack her bags, throw her out, list out grievances etc can be an answer that I've considered. One of the major issues that complicate the ditch the ***** strategy is finances. 

The cause of our money woes is that I ditched corporate life in an attempt to save my marriage and family. How's that for doubling down? But as this is getting better it puts me in a stronger position to D. 

Here's the problem. None of this makes sense. Staying in a loveless, sexless turbulent marriage doesn't work. Getting out and believing that the harm to my kids would be worse seems cowardly. And I really don't know what the cause of all this is. 

I've made a career of information gathering, diagnosis and problem solving. Many times I've had to walk away because it couldn't be fixed, I couldn't fix it or the other party was more comfortable in the broken state. My problem in marriage is that I don't know exactly why it's broke. I have clues but as I said the info doesn't make sense. This is why at this moment I'm not prepared to walk away.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

You are not alone. Sometimes all answers stink.

No EA PA activity?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> You are not alone. Sometimes all answers stink.
> 
> No EA PA activity?


Yes, sometimes all answers do stink. No answers or clues just SUCKS!

EA / PA activity - none. Still have my radar up but nothing that hints at A. But I came across a bit of information that may help me understand where her head is.

Clicked a link on a thread in TAM that lead to Marriage Restoration Project. I'm a reader and open to advice so I downloaded their free sample chapters. Good stuff with a nugget near the end of the "Sealing Exits" chapter:

_"I almost always know that there is “infidelity” (whether an actual affair or an energy leak) happening when there is absolutely no interest in working on the relationship. I often am prompted to ask in such a case if there is an affair. If there isn’t, there is usually a therapist or another “advice-giver” involved. I can always hear when there is the voice or influence of another. It is particularly sad because the relation
ship is usually salvageable."_

YES! For years her bff, a 'counselor' with no real degree, has always been a touchy subject. We have been friends with the couple for nearly our whole married life. This womans input has always been pro-wife (which = neg-Idyit) and often shaky at best to support marriage. Kind of a "it's all about W health/well-being etc and F the Idyit. 

A year or so ago when this thread started bff got involved. Full support for wife, "Idyits the bad guy, do what you need to do to feel better about you... blah blah blah". Conveniently W forgot to tell bff about the budding EA. Not one phone call or conversation between myself and the other couple took place. I did call, no response. Told wife I have no interest in continuing any relationship with them as clearly they had no interest in us as a couple. Idyit = bad for this one

About six months later she mentions the EA and the feedback to me from W was, "she says that kind of thing can happen" Huh, wtf, gmadb and any other expletive?!?!? 

Holy sheep **** batman! I think I understand the energy leak, infidelity, toxicity or whateverthehellelse you want to call it. Problem now is how do I get her to see this bff pillar of understanding as a major problem in our marriage? Seriously, as clearly as I can see this person as a problem it would most likely come quickly back to bite me on the a$$ for saying it. "Look how controlling Idyit is. You need to get out"

Any input at all would be GREATLY appreciated here.

~ Passio


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Almost sounds like her BFF is a wierd EA.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Yes, that's kind of what I'm thinking too. Weird is an adequate descriptor. The whole relationship is a wedge between my wife and I. 

So what am I supposed to do about it? I'd like to get some response from anyone who has had this sort of thing in their marriage. Any help at all is appreciated. Feel free to criticize, correct or hit me over the head with a 2x4. Thanks

~ Passio


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How can she keep being friends with someone who cannot even respect you ?

The bff can say what she wants about you because your wife allows it in the first place and because she knows that is what your wife wants to hear.

What does the W say about this ?


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

warlock07 said:


> How can she keep being friends with someone who cannot even respect you ?
> 
> The bff can say what she wants about you because your wife allows it in the first place and *because she knows that is what your wife wants to hear.*
> 
> What does the W say about this ?


Bolded above is the operative statement. Honestly I don't get a lot of feedback on what is actually said. The results of the conversation are universally crappy though.

It's a strange dynamic that I don't know how to address. Fun to ***** about though. 

~ Passio


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

It's a strange dynamic that many women today seem to take great pleasure in denigrating their husbands. My wife has experienced some of her friends doing this. She has told them flat out that she doesn't want to hear it and if they continue she won't associate with them. Her feeling is that it creates a bad environment and perpetuates negative thought patterns. I find myself doing the same thing. If guys that I hang out with start putting down their wives I will either excuse myself and leave or I will tell them I'm not comfortable with that discussion. Toxic thinking is contagious and my wife and I refuse to expose ourselves to it unnecessarily.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Kids in a dysfunctional family don't benefit from having the two waring parents in the same house. Even if there are no verbal battles kids pick up on tension and incorporate that into the way they will deal with relationships of their own:

1. Cold shoulder treatment instead of honest communications
2. Vindictive and hurtful actions and attitudes instead of honest communications

Neither of you is helping your kids grow into adults that are responsible for their own actions. 

Your kids are going to need counseling if there's no resoulution and quickly. I assume they're not getting some now.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Ask your wife if she wouldn't be happier staying with her pessimistic bff ?

It doesn't sound like you have read the book MMSLP, linked to below. It is a relationsip guide based on physiology even more so than psychology, a must read for men on how to atract and then keep a wife.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Kids in a dysfunctional family don't benefit from having the two waring parents in the same house. Even if there are no verbal battles kids pick up on tension and incorporate that into the way they will deal with relationships of their own
> 
> 1. Cold shoulder treatment instead of honest communications
> 2. Vindictive and hurtful actions and attitudes instead of honest communications
> ...


With respect I think you're missing many details and arriving at a sloppy conclusion. 

As stated recently above, a decision to leave my family would be more hurtful and teach more negatively than seeking help and working on my challenges. That is part of why I am here. Actual advice or helpful input from others is welcome.

As to the bolded. Which actions are you referring to? Honoring my vows, being open with my wife, being humble enough to seek advice and take it, being open and honest with my kids, seeking resolution rather than dissolution, loving my wife despite the issues we have, concerted effort at becoming a better man, husband and father? Among others these are actions that I will take responsibility for. My wife and children see and experience all of this from me. This is also a valuable lesson.

Passio Mr. Walkonmars....


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Ask your wife if she wouldn't be happier staying with her pessimistic bff ?
> 
> - Kinda been done in a poorly thought out fashion. Didn't go over well. Interesting though that there has been little contact recently. Progress maybe??
> 
> It doesn't sound like you have read the book MMSLP, linked to below. It is a relationsip guide based on physiology even more so than psychology, a must read for men on how to atract and then keep a wife.


Read it as well as just about every other recommending book on TAM. I have hiked up my skirt and made many changes and there has been some response. 

Like eating an elephant - One bite at a time..

~Passio


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

@Chap Why do you assume I haven't read the book?


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