# Who here has divorced due to lack of sex?



## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

I ask because a friend of mine who I thought was in a happy marriage sat his wife down and told her that she was not meeting his sexual needs. She balked and called him a "sex addict" and he stood up and told her "i'm done". I thought he was full of crap but he spoke to a lawyer and got papers drawn up. She found out and apologized and tried to have sex to which he told her "too late, i'm done." Did he man up? Ladies?


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I ask because a friend of mine who I thought was in a happy marriage sat his wife down and told her that she was not meeting his sexual needs. She balked and called him a "sex addict" and he stood up and told her "i'm done". I thought he was full of crap but he spoke to a lawyer and got papers drawn up. She found out and apologized and tried to have sex to which he told her "too late, i'm done." Did he man up? Ladies?


I guess he "manned" up. Too bad he didn't give her a chance, but I don't have the whole story.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Me.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

My final hearing is Sept 26th...can't wait!


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> My final hearing is Sept 26th...can't wait!


Was there any affection at all, or was it just sex?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Thound said:


> I guess he "manned" up. Too bad he didn't give her a chance, but I don't have the whole story.


I'm betting he gave her LOTS of chances. That conversation was his last straw.

He manned up.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Was this the first she had heard of this or was it an ongoing issue in their marriage that she kept pushing the snooze button on?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If this was the one and only time he talked to her about wanting more sex then he's not a very good guy.

But my bet is that this was a long time coming.

Lack of sex was one of the factors in both of my marriages. I'd rather be alone then live with a cold fish of a man.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

If my wife had acted like she has in the past 5 years during the first 5 years of our marriage, I could see filing for divorce.
But after 28 years, 5 children and all the ups and downs we have already pushed thru, it has become uncomfortably comfortable and I don't know if I could start all over.

I can also understand the divorced man not giving his wife a second chance. 
You have heard numerous times on TAM about people giving their partners a second chance, only to be very disappointed later when their partner backslides into the old habits.

You shouldn't have to fight that hard to be happy and find somebody that you can share yourself with both physically, and emotionally without having to jump thru their ridiculous hoops and mind games.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Yes, I did. But only after exploring every possible avenue available to me before doing so.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thound said:


> I guess he "manned" up. Too bad he didn't give her a chance, but I don't have the whole story.


He did give her a chance. He told her it was an issue (and by the time he finally did so bluntly, the chance she was in the dark about this is null). Her response was to insult him.

That shows how she really felt about either him or sex itself. Why did she not say "sweetie, I've known you aren't happy. Just let me know what you need and I'm there for you?" Why did she wait until he saw the lawyer before changing her tune?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

I did, although indirectly.

The lack of sex was the most obvious sign of her lack of regard for and attraction to me. She genuinely thought I should be happy for whatever I got - like it was a bonus and not deserved.

As soon as it was feasible, I didn't walk out on her, but I did my own thing and minimized her role in my life. She tried to do better but realized getting over her hangups would be hard work (that she was not willing to put in), and it was a matter of time.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes I did but it is a much bigger, longer answer than that.

I have since re partnered with a man that I am sexually compatible with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Yes, I did. But only after exploring every possible avenue available to me before doing so.


Me too. Sex wasn't the only factor, but it was a huge issue for the duration of our marriage....rationed out, vanilla, boring, no head, no experimentation, selfish lay on your back while I do all the work sex. What a horrible lay...which is why I think people who get married without every having sex are insane, as are people who get married too young.

Any issues you have with a LD sex partner only get worse with time. They tend to get lazier each year. If you have a normal, health sex drive, this is no way to live.


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## CB121 (Jan 10, 2012)

fav quote 
sex in a good marriage is only 10% of the relationship
sex (or lack thereof) is 110% of a bad marriage


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

Ya, I think he did man up. Sex is important to him, him told his wife the problem and she blamed it on him. Good for him to have the stones to follow through. 

I went through this with my wife except I didn't follow through. At the time I couldn't afford a divorce. We were heavily in debt, to the tune of 80 grand, and at the time I couldn't imagine a scenario where this didn't lead to financial ruin. We've been through a lot of counseling and things are better somewhat in every other area of our marriage now.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

I did, When your constantly rejected over and over again it gets to you after a while. I cheated. Divorced and married my ap. Would I do it again? You bet I would. We just had mismatched drives I guess. Was a sh*tty way of going about it. I would probably do things differently. I tried for years and years, being someone I'm not, tried everything I could to salvage it, but after so long and repeat rejection, just didnt care anymore.


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## adburk25 (Aug 8, 2013)

It sounds to me like this has been an ongoing problem and rather there was a communication issue or not I don't think they were on the same page for whatever reason.Me and my husband had the same problem with the lack of sex but lately we have been working together to change that. He has a very high sex drive and mine is not but we have been trying different things and lately we seem to be on a really good page together. I think sometimes people get so comfortable in there life they get into a rut so to speak. All it takes is each person stepping out the comfort zone and making a change even if its a small one. Change isn't always good but sometimes it can make a difference in a relationship.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I didn't, but if my wife reacted like that I probably would have. We fixed our marriage instead.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Lordhavok said:


> I did, When your constantly rejected over and over again it gets to you after a while. I cheated. Divorced and married my ap. Would I do it again? You bet I would. We just had mismatched drives I guess. Was a sh*tty way of going about it. I would probably do things differently. I tried for years and years, being someone I'm not, tried everything I could to salvage it, but after so long and repeat rejection, just didnt care anymore.


It kinda blackens that spot that was love in your heart, huh? Just too many repetitions...


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

DTO said:


> He did give her a chance. He told her it was an issue (and by the time he finally did so bluntly, the chance she was in the dark about this is null). Her response was to insult him.
> 
> That shows how she really felt about either him or sex itself. Why did she not say "sweetie, I've known you aren't happy. Just let me know what you need and I'm there for you?" Why did she wait until he saw the lawyer before changing her tune?


Way too little information in that story to take a position.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Thound said:


> Was there any affection at all, or was it just sex?


Mostly just sex...she didn't really participate, other than lay there long enough for me to finish. 
The routine was she would lay there while I get her off, then I took care of myself either inside her or rubbing between her buns. Never did she make effort to ensure I was satisfied.

I got tired of doing it corps style...the passion had been gone for several years.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

IndyTMI said:


> Mostly just sex...she didn't really participate, other than lay there long enough for me to finish.
> The routine was she would lay there while I get her off, then I took care of myself either inside her or rubbing between her buns. Never did she make effort to ensure I was satisfied.
> 
> I got tired of doing it corps style...the passion had been gone for several years.


Where did the term "corps style" come from? Marines?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Indy, shoulda just told her "I'm not into necrophelia".


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Indy, shoulda just told her "I'm not into necrophelia".


I had someone who would do that too. It literally was a dead body, not one bit of help or any positive guesture which may give me a good impression.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

sigh...that is just sad.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> sigh...that is just sad.


Well... This one had turned on me by then, but was still doing some sex. When she did the necrophilia, it was because she did not want to help or support me, through body language, tone of voice, guestures, or giving a vote which may help me.

It sucked. A soul drainer.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

treyvion said:


> Where did the term "corps style" come from? Marines?



Lol...I misspell on occasion.


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

*Re: Re: Who here has divorced due to lack of sex?*



DTO said:


> I did, although indirectly.
> 
> The lack of sex was the most obvious sign of her lack of regard for and attraction to me. She genuinely thought I should be happy for whatever I got - like it was a bonus and not deserved.
> 
> As soon as it was feasible, I didn't walk out on her, but I did my own thing and minimized her role in my life. She tried to do better but realized getting over her hangups would be hard work (that she was not willing to put in), and it was a matter of time.


How did you minimize her role in your life exactly?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Hurra said:


> How did you minimize her role in your life exactly?


I guess so. If a same sex buddy did it to us, we'd do the right thing and minimize their role, unless you enjoy being taken advantage of.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Sanity said:


> She found out and apologized and tried to have sex to which he told her "too late, i'm done." Did he man up? Ladies?


I don't know the whole story, but I'm actually kinda surprised she tried to get him to have sex after he told her he was done. Most people if they are that checked out that they don't want to have sex with their spouse might find some kind of relief that its over. My guess is, he is probably relieved that its over so he can move on , and she may be too, after its all sunk in.


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

trey69 said:


> I don't know the whole story, but I'm actually kinda surprised she tried to get him to have sex after he told her he was done. Most people if they are that checked out that they don't want to have sex with their spouse might find some kind of relief that its over. My guess is, he is probably relieved that its over so he can move on , and she may be too, after its all sunk in.


Mine finally tried to have and offer sex up after I moved out and had already started down the divorce process. 

She said she didn't think I was serious about divorce and I never gave her a real chance to change.

I showed her an email I had sent to an online counselor over a year ago about how unhappy I was and wanted to find out what I needed to do to improve my love life. She has had a year to change but instead chose to resist it and ignore all of my suggestions to improve our relationship.
She said the counselor I picked out locally wasn't doing us any good, so I suggested she pick one for us to attend instead. She never did look for one.

My thinking is that you shouldn't have to threaten divorce to get a change in your sex life. If your spouse loves you and wants the relationship to remain healthy, they will do their part to ensure the other is continually satisfied in the bedroom.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

trey69 said:


> I don't know the whole story, but I'm actually kinda surprised she tried to get him to have sex after he told her he was done. Most people if they are that checked out that they don't want to have sex with their spouse might find some kind of relief that its over. My guess is, he is probably relieved that its over so he can move on , and she may be too, after its all sunk in.


Not surprising at all. It's the "oh s**t, maybe the sweet deal of getting and paying for all I want for a minimum of effort on my part is in danger of walking out the door for real this time" reaction. Too little, too late, and more importantly the motivation is not that she wants to repair the relationship and have more intimacy with her husband, but that she doesn't want to lose her meal ticket. It happens all to often when the fed up spouse finally man's up (or woman's up), and is kind of insulting actually.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Anubis said:


> Not surprising at all. It's the "oh s**t, maybe the sweet deal of getting and paying for all I want for a minimum of effort on my part is in danger of walking out the door for real this time" reaction. Too little, too late, and more importantly the motivation is not that she wants to repair the relationship and have more intimacy with her husband, but that she doesn't want to lose her meal ticket. It happens all to often when the fed up spouse finally man's up (or woman's up), and is kind of insulting actually.


This makes sense and sad at the same time that folks do this. Personally I think if you are with somebody just to feed off of them and provide little to no benefit to them, you are esentially a parasite.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

I had lunch with the guy I wrote this post about and asked him how where things going and he said she's a mess and has been sending him emails and texts and telling him how much she loves him.

I also asked him how long its been this bad because it wasn't very apparent that he was unhappy and he hid it well. I asked him how long has he been in a "sexless marriage" and he said that as soon as the ring went on the finger sex was pretty much reserved for when he spent money on expensive dinners, major holidays, birthdays and when the planets would line up. Everything in between was sexless. 

His wife is quite attractive (I didn't say that to him) and from my own experience it must be torture to desire your hot wife and she blatantly denies you time and time again. It really does break your spirit as it did mine years ago. 

Out of curiousity I asked him what was the straw that broke the camels back, and he said "The moment I realized I was masturbating in the shower and thinking about my wife". Holy crap. Thats just sad all around.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

I didn't divorce over sex. I divorced because she said she wanted out, I said theres the door and she left. 

That being said. Our finale catalyst argument was when she looked at me and said. "I wish you had sex with other people." 

At that moment, I only had sex with her when she felt like it. Barely initiated because I was a "sex addict" and then finally when I say "i'm done all the control is yours" I got "you lost your passion and drive". 

That comment, was the nail in the coffin.


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## Oldmatelot (Mar 28, 2011)

I'm afraid I did. But I was a lot younger and way more immature. 
Knowing what I do now things may have been different. There was no communication ref sex. I had higher expectations of what sex would be like I a marriage. 
Here I am at 50, 20 odd years since the first attempt and having the best sex ever.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Oldmatelot said:


> I'm afraid I did. But I was a lot younger and way more immature.
> Knowing what I do now things may have been different. There was no communication ref sex. I had higher expectations of what sex would be like I a marriage.
> Here I am at 50, 20 odd years since the first attempt and having the best sex ever.


What a success story.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

IndyTMI said:


> Mostly just sex...she didn't really participate, other than lay there long enough for me to finish.
> The routine was she would lay there while I get her off, then I took care of myself either inside her or rubbing between her buns. Never did she make effort to ensure I was satisfied.


 thing are so bad for me that I'd find this perfectly acceptable and exciting



IndyTMI said:


> My thinking is that you shouldn't have to threaten divorce to get a change in your sex life. If your spouse loves you and wants the relationship to remain healthy, they will do their part to ensure the other is continually satisfied in the bedroom.


 x1000 !!!!



Sanity said:


> I asked him how long has he been in a "sexless marriage" and he said that as soon as the ring went on the finger sex was pretty much reserved for when he spent money on expensive dinners, major holidays, birthdays and when the planets would line up. Everything in between was sexless.* I don't even get it then ! *
> 
> His wife is quite attractive (I didn't say that to him) and from my own experience it must be torture to desire your hot wife and she blatantly denies you time and time again. It really does break your spirit as it did mine years ago. *yes, I'm in the same boat*
> 
> Out of curiousity I asked him what was the straw that broke the camels back, and he said "The moment I realized I was masturbating in the shower and thinking about my wife". Holy crap. Thats just sad all around.


 this is me right now.

thanks for starting this thread and all the awesome replies. It has given me courage to stand up and move on.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

Sanity said:


> *His wife is quite attractive (I didn't say that to him) and from my own experience it must be torture to desire your hot wife and she blatantly denies you time and time again. *It really does break your spirit as it did mine years ago.
> 
> Out of curiousity I asked him what was the straw that broke the camels back, and he said "The moment *I realized I was masturbating in the shower and thinking about my wife*". Holy crap. Thats just sad all around.


I can say a big DITTO to this post, and that's what makes it even harder for me that my wife is LD with me.

My wife is even more beautiful today than she was 25 years ago. She did some pin-up girl modeling work when she was in her early 20's and had an offer to do test shots for Playboy Magazine. 
She has grown from a cute, perky and bubbly 20 yr. old to a drop dead gorgeous women in her mid 40's. True she has put on a little extra weight over the last 20 years, but she added them in all the right places, making her already hour glass figure even more so. Most people would peg her age to be nearer 35 than 45.
I would love to post a pic of her on my profile here, but discretion is the better part of valor. Just think of Kelly Preston and that is a fair assessment of who my wife looks like.

It just kills me that I am married to one of the most beautiful woman on earth and I can only get to look at her most of the time.
For the men here suffering with similar problems, it really can feel like your dying inside with each rejection and turn-down. :banghead:


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Batman4691 said:


> I can say a big DITTO to this post, and that's what makes it even harder for me that my wife is LD with me.
> 
> My wife is even more beautiful today than she was 25 years ago. She did some pin-up girl modeling work when she was in her early 20's and had an offer to do test shots for Playboy Magazine.
> She has grown from a cute, perky and bubbly 20 yr. old to a drop dead gorgeous women in her mid 40's. True she has put on a little extra weight over the last 20 years, but she added them in all the right places, making her already hour glass figure even more so. Most people would peg her age to be nearer 35 than 45.
> ...


And for the women here suffering similar problems, it really can feel like you are dying inside with each rejection and turn-down. 

You are not ugly and unlovable as no doubt your rejecting husband makes you feel. Trust me there is a life outside a sexless marriage, I know that first hand. In the last two days I have had more sex with my partner than ex and I had in a year.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

I nearly left my husband over the lack of sex.

However he promised to work on it, and is doing so.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Holland said:


> And for the women here suffering similar problems, it really can feel like you are dying inside with each rejection and turn-down.
> 
> You are not ugly and unlovable as no doubt your rejecting husband makes you feel. Trust me there is a life outside a sexless marriage, I know that first hand. In the last two days I have had more sex with my partner than ex and I had in a year.


I agree and barring any medical or mental issues, any man that turns down his wife for sex is just not a man in my eyes. If my ex was horny at 3:30 AM and got frisky my soldier would salute and be ready for duty. Its just not normal for a man(healthy) to turn down his woman.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> I nearly left my husband over the lack of sex.
> 
> However he promised to work on it, and is doing so.


As I mentioned in my previous post, a man that rejects his wifes desire for sex is just failing as a husband.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> I can say a big DITTO to this post, and that's what makes it even harder for me that my wife is LD with me.
> 
> My wife is even more beautiful today than she was 25 years ago. She did some pin-up girl modeling work when she was in her early 20's and had an offer to do test shots for Playboy Magazine.
> She has grown from a cute, perky and bubbly 20 yr. old to a drop dead gorgeous women in her mid 40's. True she has put on a little extra weight over the last 20 years, but she added them in all the right places, making her already hour glass figure even more so. Most people would peg her age to be nearer 35 than 45.
> ...



Sorry to hear you brother. As a lover of "mature" women I can testify that there is just nothing sexier than a woman who has matured emotionally, sexually, intellectually and everything else and but still has a sex drive for her man. This is especially true as the kids as they get older don't require constant 24/7 supervision and mom and dad can go out and have some fun.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

I should have filed years ago, but didn't want to put the kids through a D. I don't see things getting better, so it's a matter of time.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

uncool said:


> thing are so bad for me that I'd find this perfectly acceptable and exciting
> 
> x1000 !!!!
> 
> ...


I pray things work out for you. Sometimes sitting in front of a mediator helps to helps dislodge and clear bad behaviors that one spouse thought were ok because they were not called on it for whatever reason. Some folks see it as a slap in the face and dig in their heels even deeper to which you just have to follow through and dump. 

The last part of what he said about being in the shower and thinking about sex with the woman he loves really struck a cord with me because I did that and to add insult to injury my ex once caught me and told me I was a pervert. LOL Whatever.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> I should have filed years ago, but didn't want to put the kids through a D. I don't see things getting better, so it's a matter of time.


I completely understand your thinking and it was the same for me. The problem is that your kids start seeing your self esteem crumble and your role as a leader, which children need to feel secure is compromised leading to poor behavior and problems down the road. Sexless marriages due to one partner habitually rejecting has a cancerous effect on the other because they are saying "I do not like/love you enough to be intimate". This has a devasting effect amplified by the fact that you are "legally" stuck with a person that consistantly rejects you and makes you feel "less" of a person with each rejection. 

The other day I took my son to the park and I love watching him go up and down the playground and politely ask kids if they would play with him. He's a social butterfly. On occasion you will have some rude peckerhead kid from peckerhead parents be rude to my son and I can almost feel his heart break and he comes to me crying. I hold him and tell him its ok and to find other friends to which he does and finds other playmates. 

The problem with being HD with an LD spouse is that if you allow me to use the playground analogy, we ask our partners to "play" and they constantly tell us NO but due to our commitment to only one playmate, we sit there and suffer while we watch others "play" and be happy. On top of that, our playmate keeps making excuses and doesn't want to play and gives you grief if you start looking at the other playgrounds.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

I dont want to demonize other spouses who say they dont want/need more sex. I think we need to be adults and avoid that part of the conversation. As the HD's, intimacy or lack thereof, is likely going to be our problem. Not the other spouse. That's OK. 

I remember discussing with my ex-wife my need for more sex. Not just wanting a live in roommate. I told her flat out, "I married you with an expectation of intimacy. If you just wanted to be married cause were good friends with occasional benefits. I would have never married you. Those friends come easy."

I'm single now. I have female friends now that I am OK with and offers I've turned down because I don't want the first couple that come along.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Sanity said:


> I completely understand your thinking and it was the same for me. The problem is that your kids start seeing your self esteem crumble and your role as a leader, which children need to feel secure is compromised leading to poor behavior and problems down the road. Sxless marriages due to one partner habitually rejecting has a cancerous effect on the other because they are saying "I do not like/love you enough to be intimate".


It's easy to head down that low self-esteem path, and I was going that way. I then got into NMMNG/MMSL stuff and realized that my worth can't be measured by my W's attitude towards s*x with me. I know I'm attractive and a good person, no matter what is happening in my marriage. My self-esteem is good and I lead my family, and I believe my kids see that. My marriage isn't s*xless. If it was, I'd file today. Instead, I get (and foolishly accept) duty/zombie s*x 1-2 times/week. For now...I stay.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

If you've read NMMNG then you would understand that duty/zombie sex, is a terrible thing to accept. 

Perhaps you should go on a sex hiatus? Worse case she accepts it, best case she wants to break it. 

Personally, I think it's a very telling sign of where the marriage is at. That you would need to consider a sex hiatus as the book recommends to get away from "duty" sex.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

hope4family said:


> If you've read NMMNG then you would understand that duty/zombie sx, is a terrible thing to accept.
> 
> Perhaps you should go on a sx hiatus? Worse case she accepts it, best case she wants to break it.


I've done the moratorium before. Her anxiety/insecurity kicks in after a few weeks, she promises change and things get slightly better for a short time. Then we get back to the duty stuff.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Sanity said:


> I had lunch with the guy I wrote this post about and asked him how where things going and he said she's a mess and has been sending him emails and texts and telling him how much she loves him.
> 
> I also asked him how long its been this bad because it wasn't very apparent that he was unhappy and he hid it well. I asked him how long has he been in a "sexless marriage" and he said that as soon as the ring went on the finger sex was pretty much reserved for when he spent money on expensive dinners, major holidays, birthdays and when the planets would line up. Everything in between was sexless.
> 
> ...


I was this guy. This was me except I never "manned up". Just tried harder and harder to give her what she wanted. In the end she left me.

This was over a year ago now. I am actually happy that things ended up the way they did. I'm completely detached thanks to friends, family, IC and TAM. I have a new girlfriend that wants me more than I can handle and I love it.

Yet, reading this was extremely painful. Hell, I won't lie, I teared up a little. 

Being in a sexless marriage is nothing short of torture.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

For17 some odd years, I relieved myself while my wife was downstairs or in the other room with fuul knowledge of what I was doing. 3 years ago, I said no more and became more assertive with sex. For a little over three years, I didn't relieve myself...not even once. 

During that time, she was never into it and for the most part would just lay there..."zombie sex". Then I pushed the frequency of sex even more until she opened up verbally to how she felt about sex.

She doesn't like sex, never has, not with me, not with Brad Pit, Not with anybody. Never has, never will. She doesn't even like getting herself off.

I am done. I no longer rush home like before to make my wife dinner like before. I stopped washing her clothes. She makes her own lunch now.


My daughter is in the middle of all this and that hurts.

My wife even said I can have a mistress. She would rather me have an affair than have sex with me! So now I want to prove that a woman would actually want to have sex with me. Is it me or is it her?

Yes, I will end the marriage because of no sex.

My wife will have sex with me if I wanted to. I just know she doesn't like it or want it. So Why bother? I am tire of the hoops.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Trickster said:


> For17 some odd years, I relieved myself while my wife was downstairs or in the other room with fuul knowledge of what I was doing. 3 years ago, I said no more and became more assertive with sex. For a little over three years, I didn't relieve myself...not even once.
> 
> During that time, she was never into it and for the most part would just lay there..."zombie sex". Then I pushed the frequency of sex even more until she opened up verbally to how she felt about sex.
> 
> ...


That is utterly appalling. I can't think of anything more hurtful than being told that...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Trickster said:


> For17 some odd years, I relieved myself while my wife was downstairs or in the other room with fuul knowledge of what I was doing. 3 years ago, I said no more and became more assertive with sex. For a little over three years, I didn't relieve myself...not even once.
> 
> During that time, she was never into it and for the most part would just lay there..."zombie sex". Then I pushed the frequency of sex even more until she opened up verbally to how she felt about sex.
> 
> ...


That is so sad to read.

I am 3.5 years post separation, now divorced and 2 years into a new relationship.

Back then in my past life I thought that it was me, I was ugly, unlovable, undesirable and that no one would want to be with me. I had over time become totally ****ed up mentally while living in a sexless marriage.

I just want to tell you that after the divorce and some IC my life is pure bliss. I discovered it was not me that was the issue (I knew that deep down but had lost myself).
Today I am in a loving relationship with a very compatible man, the sex is mind blowing and frequent. 

There is life after divorce from a sexless marriage, it takes a lot of personal growth and work to get there but it is worth it. I look back now and cringe at what I endured. I live today feeling happy and alive. I look forward to the future with excitement.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Trickster said:


> For17 some odd years, I relieved myself while my wife was downstairs or in the other room with fuul knowledge of what I was doing. 3 years ago, I said no more and became more assertive with sex. For a little over three years, I didn't relieve myself...not even once.
> 
> During that time, she was never into it and for the most part would just lay there..."zombie sex". Then I pushed the frequency of sex even more until she opened up verbally to how she felt about sex.
> 
> ...


A few wives got kicked into gear from the husband taking her up on this particular challenge. And of course many people move on.

You may take her up on it proving she's serious and she seriously is not going to open her legs for you. Then I'd go get someone she would consider of sufficient stature.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Not having read every post here, it seems to me that more often than not, lack of sex, intimacy and/or affection is simply a symptom of deeper issues. Sometimes those issues are with one or both of the partners or how they interrelate to each other. There is no question that sometimes the answer truly is sexual incompatibility but my guess is that what we like to call sexual incompatibility is frequently just a convenient label that may accurately reflect the current state of your marriage but isn't the real problem.

It is difficult to say if OPs friend "manned up". If there was an opportunity to dig deeper and try to identify the underlying reasons for the lack of sex in their marriage and did not do so then no, I would say he didn't "man" up. If he had exhausted all potential causes then I would say yes ... at the end of the day the marriage is sexless and with little hope of resolving it, he "manned up" and took control of his happiness.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Holland said:


> That is so sad to read.
> 
> I am 3.5 years post separation, now divorced and 2 years into a new relationship.
> 
> ...



I know I need some IC soon. My wife is fine if I date. For the life of of me, I don;t understand this. I would NEVER want her to go/out and try to hook up. That is exactly what she wants me to do.

My wife would say that I am/cute, sweet, funny (comedian-trickster) she just doesnt have sexual desire. She doesnt see anything wrong with that.


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## MarriedGuyBlues (Jul 31, 2013)

Batman4691 said:


> I can say a big DITTO to this post, and that's what makes it even harder for me that my wife is LD with me.
> 
> My wife is even more beautiful today than she was 25 years ago. She did some pin-up girl modeling work when she was in her early 20's and had an offer to do test shots for Playboy Magazine.
> She has grown from a cute, perky and bubbly 20 yr. old to a drop dead gorgeous women in her mid 40's. True she has put on a little extra weight over the last 20 years, but she added them in all the right places, making her already hour glass figure even more so. Most people would peg her age to be nearer 35 than 45.
> ...


I hear you, brother. I think my wife is an absolute stunner--and I tell her so on a regular basis. Of course, the fact I find her so smoking hot makes her non-existent libido all the more frustrating. I told her the other night I've spent the past two years in a state of extreme sexual frustration, and it just led to an argument . . .


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jaharthur said:


> Way too little information in that story to take a position.


That's not true. An insult like is, for all practical purposes, never deserved.

I suppose it is theoretically possible he was asking her to do something extreme like have sex with other guys while he watched. I'm willing to bet that did not happen. And, again, short of something like that he's not a pervert and did not deserve having that label applied to him.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Sanity said:


> ... Sexless marriages due to one partner habitually rejecting has a cancerous effect on the other because they are saying "I do not like/love you enough to be intimate". ...


The more I read on the subject the more I believe that this is more or less the case. I think there might be _love_ in the relationship, but the rejecting party is no longer attracted to or _in love_ with their partner... I don't believe that someone suddenly becomes LD (unless it's due to hormones or a medical condition). IMO, they've either been faking it all along (one of the worst kinds of fraud, IMO) or they've simply lost attraction for their partner. 

As for pity sex, this notion is also lost on me. I could no sooner have sex with a man I was no longer attracted to than have sex with a man who wasn't attracted to me. I'd find that _physically_ impossible.


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## jd08 (Nov 20, 2012)

I would do it except for the little kids and ensuing financial nightmare. She gets her needs met, i am a thougtful and caring partner and in return i get a bone thrown my way once every two weeks or maybe once a week if i drag us into a fight over it. Its not fair or equitable. Tired of playing this game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hurra said:


> How did you minimize her role in your life exactly?


It was a general detachment and pulling away. I was not rude. I did not stop paying the bills or keeping the house. I paid almost all bills, while she worked but spent her money on herself.

But I had taken an alternate work schedule (one weekday every other week off, 9 hours every other weekday) as it was offered around the same time. So I was at work more during the week. The day off was spent with my young daughter (not in school). I spent more time with extended family. Stopped pumping gas in her car and making special dinners and runs to the store for her.

That kind of removal was of things you hope would make a person feel special and want to give something back.

Even though I was paying the bills and doing the most for our daughter (while being refused sex), my ex felt I shortchanged her. She had later said that she was miserable as I pulled away, yet did nothing to address her sexual hangups that prevented good performance. That is just so people here know how intractable some of these sexual refusers can be.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It took many, many years to finally decide to leave. Sex had always been a problem - "I do" became "I don't" almost immediately. However, there were plenty of other issues that grew over time, fueled no doubt by the lack of affection, respect, and intimacy. So, lack of sex was definitely a factor, as the basis for overall unhappiness.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

lots of men empathizing with each other, but not a lot of ladies...

As one of the ladies this thread was directed to, I'll tell it from the LD wife's perspective. Granted, our early years of sexlessness was further complicated by a history of childhood sexual molestation but the dynamics of what you men are describing remain the same.

After our first child was born, I could not cope with the changes and H was working 10-12 hour days, 6 days a week. When he was home, he was watching TV or sleeping. For the entire year post partum, we did NOTHING together and our only interaction involved the needs/demands of the baby, or arguments about me not acting to have sex. I hated my post child birth body. I never heard a complimentary word from him except after I would complain about the left over flabby tummy he would say, "you look fine." Not a compliment.

We had sex maybe 2-3 times a month, but it was me relenting, I never wanted to have sex, just gave in. He would touch me, I would touch him, then PIV, then he rolled over. This was the way it stayed for about 10 years. No together time. No intimate conversations. He never asked what he could to to help and frankly if he had I probably wouldn't have known how to answer. At the time, I believed there was something wrong with me because I never had orgasms. Sex wasn't terrible or traumatic, just unfulfilling. He never asked if I was having orgasms, and I didn't know I was supposed to tell him. I* just assumed there was something wrong with me.*

After about 10 years, he began to distance himself even more. Although he wasn't working such long hours, his pattern remained, work, TV or sleep. He would fix things sometimes. But his version of helping around the house was washing the cars. He did not take much hands on with the kids, never put them to bed or bathed them or dressed them. He would sometimes assist me with the nightly toy clean up, but he did it from the couch while I was on the floor doing hands on sorting and direction.

I shopped for all his clothing because he hates to shop. I would over buy, bring things home for him to select, then return what he rejected. We rarely ever went out to dinner, to the movies a few times a year... to plays, or dancing NEVER! We would entertain at home, meaning I cleaned up, cooked meals and was hostess for our guests. On those night he always wanted sex and on those nights I began to hate him.

I *believed my lack of sexual desire was entirely my fault*. That I had an otherwise nice husband who didn't drink and didn't beat me, came home every night, paid the bills on time...what did I have to complain about? I had no idea that I didn't orgasm because he didn't touch me the way I needed him to. I had no idea that I didn't seek sex with him because I felt so utterly exhausted and used up. I didn't want sex with him because I didn't feel like he wanted ME, he just wanted to get off and I was the available orifice. I never heard compliments, just frustrated sighs that I looked fine. I never got cards or gifts or flowers. he always noticed a clean house and always complimented a good meal, the right wine... *This communicated he appreciated the maid service but not the woman who provided the service.*

During this time I pretty much kept my figure, except the flabby tummy, which really wasn't much more than what it was before two babies. He, however, had already gained 50 pounds and other than weekly golf (which isn't exercise!!!) did nothing to make himself attractive. On weekends he showered before golf, but never shaved. He never wore cologne, he never made any attempt to be attractive, but willingly dressed how I asked if we were entertaining at home or joining his or my family for dinner.

By this time I was so conflicted. On one hand I hated him. On the other hand I felt ungrateful because he did provide for me and our kids.

Divorce never occurred to me. *My unhappiness was my fault,* if I had a sex drive, we wouldn't fight about sex. If I had orgasms, we wouldn't fight about sex. If I wasn't so demanding about him being more involved, we wouldn't fight about that either. My unhappiness was my own doing. If I wasn't so insecure I would embrace sex and not need romance, or nice words, or flowers, or quality alone time. This was all my fault and yet I couldn't stop myself from feeling so damn mad at him all the time! Because this was my fault, I couldn't bring myself to actually communicate this to him. "Honey I don't want to have sex because I feel fat, unattractive, unappreciated and downright exhausted and when we do have sex I don't get off and it is frustrating." Is a lot harder to say then, "just leave me alone please..."

I went into a deep depression during our 13th year of marriage. 2 years later I came out of it and OMG was I pissed off! At that point sex was OFF the table. He learned I didn't have orgasms. he learned I needed compliments, and romance and quality alone time. He learned I wasn't attracted to the 50 pound heavier version of him. He learned I wasn't interested in being his maid, his cook, his personal shopper, his child keeper. Some of these thing he learned in a nice way and some of them were shouted at him. We became room mates, I moved into the guest room where the maid sleeps.

So, during those years if he made an ultimatum, "more and better sex or I'm out of here..." I would have showed him the door then had a psychotic break. How can you HATE someone so much, but also need them desperately? 



I simply do not believe that every man who posts about an LD wife is really, actually doing "everything" he can until he has listed HER needs and how he has met them. Until he has with confidence sworn that his wife does have orgasms during sex, and considering how many wives fake it in order to avoid painful and difficult conversations.... Many husband members here have done just that and I totally sympathize with them. But having been in LD wives shoes, my sympathy automatically goes toward the likeliness of a huge amount of unmet needs on her part, that he unfortunately remains clueless about. Maybe, like me, she didn't know she was allowed to have those needs and seek to have them met, so she can't communicate them. Or maybe she really is just a *****...?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> I simply do not believe that every man who posts about an LD wife is really, actually doing "everything" he can until he has listed HER needs and how he has met them.


I have a LD friend and this fits her situation. Her husband must be the stupidest man on the planet. He complained about lack of sex but this behaviors were awful. Not picking up after himself ever, not showering often enough, not shaving unless he had to work, not helping with kids, drinking too much, his mood was negative/angry, and he appeared to be deaf when she voiced her needs. Seemed surprised when she left him. :scratchhead:

Another friend of my husbands (male) also presently complains about lack of sex but OMG while I like the guy I could not live with him. He's a nice guy but he is annoying to the nth degree and he is blind to it. He's an attractive man, hard worker, BUT his people skills are atrocious. He however thinks he's the greatest guy ever. :lol:


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## tryingtoenjoylife (Mar 30, 2012)

First, in answer to the original poster, I give him all the credit. He manned up. 

Someone further down the line was posting how being constantly turned down by your wife kills your self esteem, kills your confidence, keeps you from in essence being manly. I couldn't agree more.

I have posted this before and I will post it again. If you are in this situation you have a few choices:

1) Deal with it and masturbate all the time. My wife is NOT a pinup model and has gained weight, but I still find her attractive an sexually attractive. I, like one poster, found myself actually masturbating while thinking of my wife. How sad is that?

2) Man up and get divorced. I saw a lot of people in this room who have done so and some who haven't for various reasons (personal, financial). Again, I give the original poster (his friend that is) for seeing that things weren't going to change and changing them.

3) Have an affair. There will be women (and men) who jump on me for this, but this is a valid solution. The one poster compared it to being at a playground and not being allowed to play. How cruel is that? 

Me personally, I wish I were strong enough to man up, but I chose route 3 after years of living with route 1. I may get to route 2, but most likely it will be after the kids are grown.

Think of me what you will, but if your SO won't let you play on the his/her playground, you have every right to go play elsewhere. If a guy repeatedly turned down his wife for sex....well, you have heard it already on this board. So why is it ok for a women to do it?

One poster commented on what the husband does. Well, like the men, I go to work, I pay the bills, I don't drink, don't hit. I shower every morning and though I have a business job (I don't sweat at work) I shower every night practically to. I am overweight, but still proportionate and not nearly as overweight as my wife. I also do the dishes, change the kids, bathe them every night. 

The sex life continued to decrease from what was once the "wake you up at 3:30 in the morning" thing to "Really?" In the last 5 years my wife has not once tried to seduce me. Her idea of initiating sex is if she leaves the room and goes upstairs and hollers from upstairs, "Are you going to come up." Once in the bedroom she lays on her back, never gets on top, rarely initiates oral, never shares fantasies, never talks dirty, never gets into it. This was a girl who used to be multi-orgasmic, initiated sex, and would go down on me in a coat closet just for kicks.

She acts like she has grown out of it, that I am immature to want to have sex more than 2 x per month. That I am immature to think about it a lot. The worst part is that she had started saying that she only had a lot of sex with me because she had low self esteem and did that (had sex) so guys would like her. Now that she is mature and confident in herself, she doesn't need it - my feelings be damned. I feel like the entire marriage was based on a fraud. 

But, I have 3 young kids who I love very much. I don't want to be a part of their lives. My physical needs are not being met and it affects my emotional ones. So, without looking for it, I began an affair. Another married woman was also not getting her needs met. I was awesome for me to have a woman desire me, crave me, want me. For her it was awesome to have someone who reciprocated, found her attractive. My wife refuses to wear lingerie and this lady was getting a kick out of dressing up for me - FOR ME!! Every time it was like unwrapping a brand new present at Christmas instead of a brown paper bag. The affair ran its course as emotionally we were feeling better about ourselves and both decided to allow our spouses a chance. It was funny because in the middle of the affair, my wife said something to the extent of "things seem to be going a lot better lately." I agreed, but took that to mean that I was happier at home and I wasn't pestering her for sex. During that time my wife and I had no sex, but if you ask her, we had it "just last week."

So, now for 2 months I have been out of the affair and feel miserable again. I make a suggestion about sex and I am put off for one reason or another. I make a sexual comment or innuendo in privacy and I am being a perve or immature. How is saying something like "That shirt really makes your breasts look good" immature or perverted? If we are lying in bed together and I start to rub her leg or side I get "I am trying to sleep" or "Get that thing away from me" or "I suppose you are going to keep me up all night if I don't" Yeah, that is what a guy likes to hear.

So, admittedly, I need to "man up." But should I


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

adburk25 said:


> It sounds to me like this has been an ongoing problem and rather there was a communication issue or not I don't think they were on the same page for whatever reason.Me and my husband had the same problem with the lack of sex but lately we have been working together to change that. He has a very high sex drive and mine is not but we have been trying different things and lately we seem to be on a really good page together. I think sometimes people get so comfortable in there life they get into a rut so to speak. All it takes is each person stepping out the comfort zone and making a change even if its a small one. Change isn't always good but sometimes it can make a difference in a relationship.


May I ask what worked vs. what didn't work?


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

thunderstruck said:


> I've done the moratorium before. Her anxiety/insecurity kicks in after a few weeks, she promises change and things get slightly better for a short time. Then we get back to the duty stuff.


With my LD partner, I absolutely do not want her to merely comport her behavior (i.e. acquiesce to sex). Behavior modifications are VERY temporary, I want her to confront those intimacy barriers Deejov extols. Things may get better, or they may get worse, but at least I am getting an honest & authentic sense of my partner, perhaps less encumbered by long term emotional wounds. IC for everyone


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Trickster said:


> My wife even said I can have a mistress. She would rather me have an affair than have sex with me! So now I want to prove that a woman would actually want to have sex with me. Is it me or is it her?


Fook me .. I am so sorry. You don't have to prove sh|t to anyone; least of all someone who only cares about herself.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Maybe, like me, she didn't know she was allowed to have those needs and seek to have them met, so she can't communicate them. Or maybe she really is just a *****...?


Or maybe her fear of rejection or abandonment was so great she just could not trust anyone with the deepest expression of her needs. 

Ultimately, you either hit bottom or found the ego strength to act on your needs. Being vulnerable enough to say, "I have these needs and I need your help to meet them" is a huge statement of trust. 

You grabbed the bull by the horns and held on for the ride. Would it be disingenuous to tell you how happy I am for you? Kindest Regards-


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> lots of men empathizing with each other, but not a lot of ladies...
> 
> As one of the ladies this thread was directed to, I'll tell it from the LD wife's perspective. Granted, our early years of sexlessness was further complicated by a history of childhood sexual molestation but the dynamics of what you men are describing remain the same.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you went through this but if I follow this correctly it really comes down to communicating your needs. Unfortunately men are not mind readers so if you "need" ten things done to be happy then tell your man. What I'm referring to in the case of my friend he was always trying to please her and she turned sex into currency. Men eventually get tired of being manipulated with sex and find lower mountain to climb. 

I think that women need to be brutally blunt and set expectations. Like to be wined and dined for days before the legs open? Well find a very patient man or find a man that's 100% ok with that. Unfortunately I've see way to many cases where the woman will "trap" a man with copious amounts of sex and once the ring goes on they don't have to work so hard because they got the man by the balls legally especially when kids are involved. The mistake we men make is putting up with this bait and switch.

I don't condemn you for not wanting to have sex for whatever reason, but at the same time if your reject your husband you should divorce him so he can find a loving partner. 

My best friend just got remarried and he told his wife that he will not tolerate a sexless marriage. She agreed wholeheartedly and they seem very happy. Expectations and honesty folks. Lets just be honest with each other and make adult decisions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notjustfriendsithink (Jul 19, 2013)

I had resolved to not go down that route as our children are still quite small, but I'm finding it more and more difficult. I had decided to make the best of it because my life is pretty good outside of the romantic relationship with my wife. I of course want to feel passion, desire, and enthusiasm from her, but I never do. I could live with that I suppose if I have to and I think I could do a good just of finding ways to be happy. However, recently she has made it clear that she doesn't respect me either. I suppose they all go together. If you don't desire your husband or get excited at all at the prospect of being with him, then you are not attracted to him, and then you can't respect him.

I can't find the courage to do what I think needs to be done though. I keep thinking about my children. I'm not happy and I'm not respected. I haven't felt wanted or loved in years, but I can't 'man up' so to speak. It's a struggle.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Tryingtoenjoylife said:


> Me personally, I wish I were strong enough to man up, but I chose route 3 after years of living with route 1. I may get to route 2, but most likely it will be after the kids are grown.


I don't blame you for going to door # 3 at all. However, taking that route is like a parachute that never touches ground. And only from the ground can you get back up again.




Tryingtoenjoylife said:


> So, now for 2 months I have been out of the affair and feel miserable again. I make a suggestion about sex and I am put off for one reason or another. I make a sexual comment or innuendo in privacy and I am being a perve or immature. How is saying something like "That shirt really makes your breasts look good" immature or perverted? If we are lying in bed together and I start to rub her leg or side I get "I am trying to sleep" or "Get that thing away from me" or "I suppose you are going to keep me up all night if I don't" Yeah, that is what a guy likes to hear.
> 
> So, admittedly, I need to "man up." But should I


You can call it man up if you want. I prefer to call it scary ass sh!t! You deserve to have your needs met, as does your wife. Pretending (which is what she's doing) and avoiding (which is what you're doing) is not good for your kids. They deserve to see parents who are loving and affectionate with each other. How the hell else will they know what a good marriage looks like? Next time your wife invalidates your need for physical love and affection, ask her why her life doesnt included great sex? if she insists she's normal, ask her if you can take a poll with her family and friends about role great sex plays among married couples.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Or maybe her fear of rejection or abandonment was so great she just could not trust anyone with the deepest expression of her needs.
> 
> Ultimately, you either hit bottom or found the ego strength to act on your needs. Being vulnerable enough to say, "I have these needs and I need your help to meet them" is a huge statement of trust.
> 
> ...


It's a work in progress, but I thank you for your kind sentiments!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I'm sorry you went through this but if I follow this correctly it really comes down to communicating your needs. Unfortunately men are not mind readers so if you "need" ten things done to be happy then tell your man. What I'm referring to in the case of my friend he was always trying to please her and she turned sex into currency. Men eventually get tired of being manipulated with sex and find lower mountain to climb.
> 
> I think that women need to be brutally blunt and set expectations. Like to be wined and dined for days before the legs open? Well find a very patient man or find a man that's 100% ok with that. Unfortunately I've see way to many cases where the woman will "trap" a man with copious amounts of sex and once the ring goes on they don't have to work so hard because they got the man by the balls legally especially when kids are involved. The mistake we men make is putting up with this bait and switch.
> 
> ...


My husband and I are still together, having FABULOUS and FREQUENT sex and working on the rest.

Everyone has needs, some more than others. I know there are women who demand special treatment before they spread their legs, but that isn't a need, that is manipulation and avoidance. 

I'm sorry women are so complicated, compared to men. There just is no single easy answer. Except for this: You get what you settle for.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trickster said:


> For17 some odd years, I relieved myself while my wife was downstairs or in the other room with fuul knowledge of what I was doing. 3 years ago, I said no more and became more assertive with sex. For a little over three years, I didn't relieve myself...not even once.
> 
> During that time, she was never into it and for the most part would just lay there..."zombie sex". Then I pushed the frequency of sex even more until she opened up verbally to how she felt about sex.
> 
> ...


It's cruel what she says to you, how she treats you. You don't deserve that. This woman has no respect for you and she's trying to destroy what little self respect you have left. Hold on, stand up, you're worth more, much more, than what she gives you credit for.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life.


Mr B. So if a spouse was sexually shut down you believe it would be better to take on a lover?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


Great ... so they can grow up and have marriages just like their parents. I'm sure they'll be happy :scratchhead:

In the meantime, their parents can look forward to a future without affection and intimacy for the rest of their lives. How wonderful.


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## xrsm002 (May 23, 2013)

I'm having the same thoughts about my wife we are both 32, been married 4 yrs as of today August 15. She has a sore throat tonight so I am not getting any tonight and am going out of town this weekend. My wife is slightly overweight, she has NEVER showered with me, nor given me oral even after I have hinted and even requested several times. She has told me she doesn't want to give me oral because her friends told her it was gross. I'm contemplating divorce, but I can't find a full time job right now. She usually just lays on her back when when having sex, rarely wants to yet something new. I'm very confused. I've even gone back to looking at porn to help satisfy what I'm not getting at home yet she wants kids. Yea she knowsI look at it. Should I type up a letter and leave it when I leave to go out of town?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I would wager that MOST divorces have a sexual aspect to them. People simply don't discuss it. Sex is the canary in the coal mine where a healthy marriage is concerned. If it goes, then eventually the marriage is going to choke and die as well.

Mine did.


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## Batman4691 (Jun 24, 2013)

I've said this before and whole-heartedly believe this. A satisfying sexual relationship between spouses shouldn't be this difficult. 

You shouldn't have to consciously work so hard to meet the needs of someone you should love the most in this world. It should come naturally. It know it did at one time for me and my wife. 

It wasn't a question about who should initiate this time, it just happened with desire pouring out from both of us. 
I love doing things for her, not to get sex, but because I honestly love making her happy. 
I love complimenting her on everything from how she looks, to thanking her for all the things she went out of the way to do for me.
I love watching her smile, the hugs, the kissing, the warmth that comes from being a couple.

It seemed so easy and effortless back then, and I don't know what *WE* did wrong, or what exactly it was that started the downward spiral, but I miss that part of our lives together. 
I miss the woman I married.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I simply do not believe that every man who posts about an LD wife is really, actually doing "everything" he can until he has listed HER needs and how he has met them. Until he has with confidence sworn that his wife does have orgasms during sex, and considering how many wives fake it in order to avoid painful and difficult conversations.... Many husband members here have done just that and I totally sympathize with them. But having been in LD wives shoes, my sympathy automatically goes toward the likeliness of a huge amount of unmet needs on her part, that he unfortunately remains clueless about. Maybe, like me, she didn't know she was allowed to have those needs and seek to have them met, so she can't communicate them. Or maybe she really is just a *****...?


I hear what you're saying. But, one thing you are missing is that sometimes the needs the wife expresses are not reasonable.

Sometimes you get women who resent having to work, resent that they don't live nice lifestyles, expect their husbands to treat them well every day even while sexless simply because the wife does not feel like it, etc. I see these type of interactions quite often, so I don't think they are uncommon.

So, at some point you have to straight-out tell the wife "you're out of control and need to just suck it up and provide" (with more tact, of course).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Batman4691 said:


> I've said this before and whole-heartedly believe this. A satisfying sexual relationship between spouses shouldn't be this difficult.
> 
> You shouldn't have to consciously work so hard to meet the needs of someone you should love the most in this world. It should come naturally. It know it did at one time for me and my wife.


Agree with this. I will go a step further and say that nearly everyone is capable of providing a satisfying sex life. We all are born with the equipment we need to do so. All you need is a healthy mindset.

Now, if someone is unfortunate enough to not have a healthy mindset, you might have more issues getting to that point. But in that case the solution is to get the help you need to change that mindset up front, not continuously struggle with phobias, flashbacks, or whatever.

An analogy: I think we would agree that, except in rare cases, any adult in the U.S. can make enough money to support himself or herself without too much trouble. Sure some folks might struggle a bit in the beginning. But you keep at it and in fairly short order you get reasonably good at doing so.

The key: if you continually struggle to support yourself, the advice you will receive is to go out, invest in yourself, and acquire the necessary skills so that you can do for yourself. For those folks who refuse to do so, the consensus is that you reap what you sow to a great extent.

IMO, a sex life is no different. It may take work and be difficult at first. You might have to invest in yourself and learn some skills or overcome some baggage. And, if you have not done so, you need to look inward rather than blame those around you for your situation.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


So you are ok with your children growing up in a sexless marriage and be miserable? Would you really choose that for your kids?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Anon Pink View Post
> I simply do not believe that every man who posts about an LD wife is really, actually doing "everything" he can until he has listed HER needs and how he has met them.


AP, I'm so sorry to hear about your early abuse and how bad your marriage used to be... 

I also don't believe that every one of these wives are necessarily LD (even if some may well be), as there's possibly a lot more going on than we're being told.

Men and women's sex drives are dependent on different factors, and a woman's drive is more fluid and influenced by a number of things... A woman whose needs are not being met outside of the bedroom cannot automatically be categorized as LD because she's not interested in having sex with her partner...

Openness, communication, honesty and sensitivity are key in resolving these issues, IMO.


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## tryingtoenjoylife (Mar 30, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


I disagree entirely. Why should you be miserable? Sex is a natural desire, urge and need. It is part of being a mammal. A loving close affectionate & sexual relationship is part of being human. 

We have a very short window where we can have an active sex life. The first appx 20 years we shouldn't be having it because we are kids. The next 20 years should be active and is part of procreation. The next 20 years should be active and carefree because there is no risk of pregnancy. At age 60 (appx) our bodies begin to fall apart and complications arise. At age 80 (appx) we die). That gives us 40 years of an active healthy sex life - hopefully more. You are saying we should live in misery???


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Concerning LD, perhaps there needs to be an entire separate category for partners (Male and Female!), who are simply too afraid to share their needs with a partner. My experience has been been that childhood physical or emotional abuse leaves scars that require serious intervention. Deejov spoke of emotional boundaries in that they should not be crossed casually. I would suggest that when these emotional boundaries are created as a result of early childhood trauma, the partner may have a tough time articulating them. You will only know you crossed a boundary when you get an extreme reaction (fights, ourbursts, complete withdrawal etc.).

In this light, I have placed some of my needs on the back burner. I haven't stopped expressing them, but I am no longer so outraged and frustrated when my partner cannot help me to meet all my needs. You do need to see change though, call it growth (as the pop-psych books do). I used to see an LD as a poor reflection of me. I now see LD as a pure representation of my partner, a natural expression of her own fears, longings and desires. I love her dearly and I hope she continues to work on her side of the street so we can grow closer. Thanks for listening...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jung_admirer said:


> Concerning LD, perhaps there needs to be an entire separate category for partners (Male and Female!), who are simply too afraid to share their needs with a partner. My experience has been been that childhood physical or emotional abuse leaves scars that require serious intervention. Deejov spoke of emotional boundaries in that they should not be crossed casually. I would suggest that when these emotional boundaries are created as a result of early childhood trauma, the partner may have a tough time articulating them. You will only know you crossed a boundary when you get an extreme reaction (fights, ourbursts, complete withdrawal etc.).
> 
> In this light, I have placed some of my needs on the back burner. I haven't stopped expressing them, but I am no longer so outraged and frustrated when my partner cannot help me to meet all my needs. You do need to see change though, call it growth (as the pop-psych books do). I used to see an LD as a poor reflection of me. I now see LD as a pure representation of my partner, a natural expression of her own fears, longings and desires. I love her dearly and I hope she continues to work on her side of the street so we can grow closer. Thanks for listening...


Considering the stats on CSA and sexual assault, one would not be too far off the mark to see an LD spouse as one who is dealing with demons and unable to articulate exactly how those demons affect them.

I've seen posts by wive's in which they describe a detached husband and other aspects that lead me to suspect he is dealing with his youth as an alter boy... 

Considering the stats, I don't think it can be easily ruled out.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I also wanted to mention that there have been a few LD spouses who came here to gain insight and advice, but they had to wade through the multitude of posts by angry husbands who simply wanted to tell them how selfish and uncaring they were. This isn't always the safe place it should be...which is why I stick around and post what I do. I can take some of the heat, I deserve some of the heat.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband was LD and the reasons ran the gamut from I was too angry to low T and everything in between.

My friend who tried to tell her husband what she needed was sexually assaulted when she was 13 by a boyfriend.

In both of these scenarios the problem wasn't just ONE thing it was MANY things. That's what makes this problem so hard to fix.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

xrsm002 said:


> I'm having the same thoughts about my wife we are both 32, been married 4 yrs as of today August 15. She has a sore throat tonight so I am not getting any tonight and am going out of town this weekend. My wife is slightly overweight, she has NEVER showered with me, nor given me oral even after I have hinted and even requested several times. She has told me she doesn't want to give me oral because her friends told her it was gross. I'm contemplating divorce, but I can't find a full time job right now. She usually just lays on her back when when having sex, rarely wants to yet something new. I'm very confused. I've even gone back to looking at porn to help satisfy what I'm not getting at home yet she wants kids. Yea she knowsI look at it. Should I type up a letter and leave it when I leave to go out of town?



No, don't leave an angry letter. But do tell her what you want in your marriage and include what you want in your sex life. Encourage her to visit a few websites to learn more about sexuality. I hate to admit but I never knew that my husband wanted me to approach him for sex until about year 13. he assumed I knew but I didn't have a clue!

We keep our daughters ignorant of sexuality while our sons get a wink and a nod about porn watching.

Dont assume she knows healthy sexuality, or that what you want is also healthy and right.


Christian Nymphos | Married Sex: Spicy, the way God intended it to be!
ScarletTeen.com


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DTO said:


> I hear what you're saying. But, one thing you are missing is that sometimes the needs the wife expresses are not reasonable.
> 
> Sometimes you get women who resent having to work, resent that they don't live nice lifestyles, expect their husbands to treat them well every day even while sexless simply because the wife does not feel like it, etc. I see these type of interactions quite often, so I don't think they are uncommon.
> 
> So, at some point you have to straight-out tell the wife "you're out of control and need to just suck it up and provide" (with more tact, of course).


You touch on a common emotional need for women, that their husband be able to care for them, financially support them. The basic need is what must be addressed, but when it is taken to extremes, then it's time for straight talk.

My oldest daughter is 26. She went to high school in a very affluent school with girls who I called little princesses in training. I pity their future husbands for having to be the adult who teaches them that every precious little thing they want, they don't automatically get, nor deserve, so wipe that pout off your face and grow up! We made our daughters get a job at 15, pay for their cars, pay for their gas and they were financially cut off at 23. My middle daughter is 23 and has several friends living in lovely condo purchased by Daddy, who also takes care of her car and cell phone...

If you want a grown up wife, don't marry a Princess! If you do marry a Princess...then you get what you settle for.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


Beautifully spoken by someone that really has NFI.

If more people had the guts to end a dysfunctional marriage instead of staying and showing a poor example to their kids, then some of this cycle would be broken.

My ex is the result of the crappy, loveless marriage his parents had till death. He has been totally ****ed up and traumatised for life due to his parents intact but seriously dysfunctional marriage.

Bravo, let's kick people when they are down and suggest they sacrifice themselves for all eternity. Let's suggest they put up with a life that can in many cases cause them serious ill health.

Let's suggest that people are not worthy of love and passion in their lives. That it is OK for one spouse to be cruel and remove the passion from a marriage while the other has to simply shut up.

Let's tell people that they have to stay for the kids, all the while the kids know full well that their parents do not love or like each other. Yeah now that is a great way to raise kids, in a hollow house without love.

People do not divorce because they aren't getting laid. They get divorced after an often long drawn out period of cruelty and hurt by the rejecting spouse. If you think this is just about sex then you truly have no clue.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> It's cruel what she says to you, how she treats you. You don't deserve that. This woman has no respect for you and she's trying to destroy what little self respect you have left. Hold on, stand up, you're worth more, much more, than what she gives you credit for.



It makes me sad when she would put our 9 year old to bed and she would fall asleep first and it seemed like she would do all she could to stay in our daughters room until it was way late just hoping that I would be too tired for sex. I never was.

I don't know how respect plays in all of this...

I read alot of your threads Anon and what if I don't do enough for her. I think that I do so much. Maybe it's all the wrong things...I don't know because she never communicates what she wants me to do. Believe me, I would do it.


"Stand up" My confidence is pretty shot. I am getting a little better recently. I know I'll be choosing that option soon.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Holland said:


> Beautifully spoken by someone that really has NFI.
> 
> If more people had the guts to end a dysfunctional marriage instead of staying and showing a poor example to their kids, then some of this cycle would be broken.
> 
> ...


What scares me most is that our daughter will see a marriage with little to no affection and think that is normal.

To be in the same house with a woman who doesn't think about hugs, kisses, toughing, sex? The thought never crosses her mind to even say I Love You. That is the part that hurts me to my core.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Holland said:


> Beautifully spoken by someone that really has NFI.
> 
> If more people had the guts to end a dysfunctional marriage instead of staying and showing a poor example to their kids, then some of this cycle would be broken.
> 
> ...


Wish I could like this 10 times. 

15 years in a sexless marriage. So many resentments. I stayed and it eventually ended anyway. 

Used to think like Mr B. I was foolish and ignorant. Not passing judgement on him. His heart's in the right place I'm sure. We learn from experience. 

It's not about getting your rocks off. It's about the lack of connection, the rejection, the humiliation, the subsequent lack of confidence. All these things affect your relationship on so many levels that it can be next to impossible to have any relationship whatsoever.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Trickster said:


> It makes me sad when she would put our 9 year old to bed and she would fall asleep first and it seemed like she would do all she could to stay in our daughters room until it was way late just hoping that I would be too tired for sex. I never was.
> 
> I don't know how respect plays in all of this...
> 
> ...


I believe you and I have engaged before about your marriage. I don't know what to tell you except that your heartfelt desire to be the kind of man she wants is there, she just won't tell you what she wants.which leads me to believe she might only respond to an ultimatum, the kind that you can only give when you really are ready to leave...and by then it may well be too late for her.

As I said, I would have showed Mr. pink the door had he given me an ultimatum and obviously we have since come a LONG way. If I can get better so can other people.

How do you make some one hit rock bottom...? You pick it up and hit them with it! 

This is clearly eating you to pieces so it's time to get out! It will be hard at first but you'll make it through, then kick yourself for waiting so long!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I respectfully disagree about the marrying a princess part. My girls have everything as long as they succeed academically. Do they feel entitled? Yes, but neither has let it get into their head...

My wife was the entitled princess type also and few of her issues are related to that.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I respectfully disagree about the marrying a princess part. My girls have everything as long as they succeed academically. Do they feel entitled? Yes, but neither has let it get into their head...
> 
> My wife was the entitled princess type also and few of her issues are related to that.


Are either of them married or in a committed relationship? How do they define a husband's role in their lives. Other than sex, how is Daddy's love and affection different from a husbands? Most telling of all, how do they treat you? Do they seek your thoughts and opinions, do they seek your approval of their decisions? Or do they come to you with problems or with needs/wants for which a credit card would solve?

You can deny all you want, but when parents provide everything they creat children who expect that from their spouse. Some kids do out grow that and learn to be more giving, other kids assume life is always likes this.

Look at your own situation. They see that you have no relationship with the lovely Mrs. Dr. LD. They don't see affection, they don't see love, they don't see conversation. They do see your continued support for both Mom and daughters even though you get nothing back. They think that's what all husband and men are supposed to be like, long suffering sources of endless support that give and give and have zero expectations for getting.

Frankly John, your daughters are going to be in for a rude awakening.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actually, no.

The older one kept a 3 year relationship going thru high school and college. The relationship was put on hiatus when the guy's focus on college sports, Xbox, and hanging out resulted in sub par grades. Ironically, she is a magna cum laude student in a very tough design major that requires very long studio hours and little time for dating. He was recalled to the local college by his parents who got tired of paying for sub par results. As her friends joke, they should put a billboard ad with her newly available sort of single status. Her view is that as long as he gets his academic and future plans in order she's available, otherwise, sayonara.

The younger one, sad to say, is too intimidating intellectually for most kids her age. She's too focused on school and her stuff to worry about relationships. She is incredibly mature for her age, far more than her old sister. 

They both know what is in store for them, 10+ years of college each, and hard work. They are easy to please. They know their boundaries very well and know what they can and can't get away with. 

They're also fully aware of the situation at home. The older one knows that we almost split because of her college and career choice and has done her best to show me she is deserving of the sacrifice. The younger one probably does not appreciate being railroaded into life sciences but with her skills it would be a disgrace if she did not.

Above all, both girls are super independent and were not significantly influenced by the events at home. This was the opinion of professionals, not just mine. The only bummer in all this is that both lost a a part of their childhood in essence but they are very resilient and resourceful

Ultimately any choice of partners will have to meet their critical eye, trained for years on what not to choose and what is important. They have high standards and expectations (if you think Estée Lauder is expensive  think again) but also deliver results. I don't expect either one to marry young; both have perseverance / wits / persistence / resourcefulness that is light years ahead of their peers. A side effect of the Rapture I guess.

The relationship they have with me is considerably better than most kids their age have with their fathers. Heck, I raised them. They know they can't BS me so it is always "here we are, here is where we want to go, how do we get there". They trust me and I trust them and they know that. Mom, sad to say, is the incubator that walks, talks, and works. Her loss. They know they need to compromise at times and they accept it. 

To get back to the original thread... Both know what is going on at home and while both would like a split they both know what implications (financial mostly) that would have on their future. And they accept it, compartmentalizing as well as can be expected, and are all the better for it. 

Incidentally, no suffering in my behalf. Resentment won't cure my wife's BPD or change her way of thinking. Detachment is a far better way to deal with it.


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## uncool (Dec 12, 2010)

Anon Pink said:


> I simply do not believe that every man who posts about an LD wife is really, actually doing "everything" he can until he has listed HER needs and how he has met them.


Anon you seem like a decent woman. The problem is that you can't comprend why some women do this to their husbands because you're not like these women. You don't have to believe it... but it's true. 
How many things must a husband do? is there a number? will his wife give him even a little hint? Is there a checklist? I've done everything possible to be attractive to my wife. I meet the short list of needs she's voiced... provider, good listener, hold things confidentially about our marriage and don't share them with others etc.... Then I guess on what the rest of her needs are (since she's a crappy communicator) by keeping myself neat and tidy, romancing her to the "T", bring her roses, giving her space when I sense she needs it, helping w/the kids, house, cleaning etc.... I don't touch her any of the week nights to show respect to her... (she likes this) and every other weekend I try to nudge her towards some type of intimacy; flirting, talking, tickling, drawing her a nice private bubblebath alone the night before . 

ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST WHATSOEVER. ABSOLUTE AND COMPLETE REJECTION EVERY SINGLE TIME. WHY TRY ANY MORE? THIS IS CALLED BEING A "SELFISH" WIFE. KNOWING ABOUT YOUR HUSBANDS NEEDS TO ONLY RECEIVE AND NEVER GIVE. THIS IS A GOOD WAY TO LOOSE YOUR DEVOTED HUSBAND. THIS IS A GOOD WAY TO QUICKLY BECOME A SINGLE MOM! 
IS A LITTLE TINY BIT OF EFFORT SO MUCH TO ASK?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

No, it's not at all too much to ask. I'm sorry your wife is treating you this way. 

have you read the 5 Love Languages yet? have to done the emotional needs questionnaire yet? Mariagebuilders.com and print out two Emotional Needs questionnaires. That should really help her identify what her needs are, so that she can communicate them to you. It should also help her to understand that sex for you is an emotional need, not just a physical need.

If you have already done them, or if she refuses to cooperate for whatever reason in reading the book or taking the questionnaire, you have your answer. 

You don't deserve to be treated this way, particularly since you have clearly worked so hard to meet her need...as best as you can guess at what they are.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sex is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life. Unless there is emotional or physical violence, simply having a rotten sex life is a poor excuse to leave a marriage when children are involved.


A non-existent sex life makes people unhappy. Unhappy parents can create a highly negative and destructive environment for their children, and this can traumatize them far worse than parents who choose to divorce one another.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon, the 5LL's may make sense for people just embarking into a relationship but if a couple has been at it for a decade or so it's all redundant at best. They know what makes the other tick or not tick.

If they don't know each others language after all this time they have more serious issues to deal with...


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Mr B said:


> Anyone who has children at home and who breaks up a family because they are not getting enough sx is, at best, extremely selfish and at worst inflicting cruelty upon their children and in some cases traumatizing them for life.





Cosmos said:


> A non-existent sx life makes people unhappy. Unhappy parents can create a highly negative and destructive environment for their children,


I see both of these possibly being correct, which leaves me stuck. This would be a no brainer if there was zero s*x, but that's not the case. At the same time, I know it's not healthy for me to be settling for scraps. And I know that my marriage is not a good example for my kids.

F**K.


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## ManOhMan2013 (Aug 1, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I ask because a friend of mine who I thought was in a happy marriage sat his wife down and told her that she was not meeting his sexual needs. She balked and called him a "sex addict" and he stood up and told her "i'm done". I thought he was full of crap but he spoke to a lawyer and got papers drawn up. She found out and apologized and tried to have sex to which he told her "too late, i'm done." Did he man up? Ladies?


*WOW!!! I KIND OF ADMIRE YOUR FRIEND! I wish I was in the place where I could make this decision. Sadly, I'm trapped due to chronic unemployment.*


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## ManOhMan2013 (Aug 1, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I'm betting he gave her LOTS of chances. That conversation was his last straw.
> 
> He manned up.


It's time for me to man up!!!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon, the 5LL's may make sense for people just embarking into a relationship but if a couple has been at it for a decade or so it's all redundant at best. They know what makes the other tick or not tick.

If they don't know each others language after all this time they have more serious issues to deal with...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Anon, the 5LL's may make sense for people just embarking into a relationship but if a couple has been at it for a decade or so it's all redundant at best. They know what makes the other tick or not tick.
> 
> If they don't know each others language after all this time they have more serious issues to deal with...


Uh Oh.... I got Mr. Pink to read that book in May of this year. The very first ever self help or marriage help book ever. 28 years here. 

yes...more serious issues here....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have a better rapport with my team at work than I do with my wife. After a decade we can pretty much can complete each others sentences, criticize each other openly without concern, and still have a beer after work. 

I can do all those at home as well. My wife is very easy to read. I am also. But she's led little effort towards reading me or, in chess terminology, playing a few moves ahead. 

Great communication is not about reading your partner now. It's about predicting what his or her reaction will be and finding a way to address concerns and arrive at a mutually agreeable solution. 

You need to think ahead and the current will take care of itself. Not think about the current and expect the future will take care of itself.

Like chess, there are also multiple planes or dimensions. You need to explore them all. It's easy to focus on one issue while missing the boat altogether.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> I have a better rapport with my team at work than I do with my wife. After a decade we can pretty much can complete each others sentences, criticize each other openly without concern, and still have a beer after work.
> 
> I can do all those at home as well. My wife is very easy to read. I am also. But she's led little effort towards reading me or, in chess terminology, playing a few moves ahead.
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

Could you put that in laymen's terms for me?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'll try.

Humans are goal seeking and communicate as part of the process of seeking their goals. In some cases the goal is defined, i.e. me and the lab rats at work trying to run a study or something. We all have a part in it and as we talk we think not only about our current part but about the goal which is to complete the study. To do so we must think of possible screw ups ahead of time and plan for them.

Talking between spouses is not too different. There is usually a goal or two, hopefully the same between them. If one spouse has great romantic plans for the night and the other partner would like nothing more than watch football on TV a conversation or communication process should consider not just the current goal (nookie or gridiron for tonight) but the longer term implications, i.e. its thanksgiving and no nookie since aug 25 when college football started and at some point my partner will be getting upset about it all and do on and so forth. It's a very natural process to think only about today; a better way is to think about the possible outcomes, project your decision forward and see what comes out.

In the above case if it is Aug 25 the gridiron fan can be excused with a rain check and some nice words, but if its Oct 25 the fan ought to think hard about the consequences of watching Alabama crushing some unsuspecting wannabe.

It may be obvious to many people that what worked on aug 25 won't work on oct 25 but humans are creatures of habit (i.e. short term). In our example here the shared goal is a happy evening - regardless of action - so the focus should not be 'oh great Alabama vs OSU' or 'oh great the kids are at grandmas time for action get the Astroglide ready' but rather on keeping the relationship running.

So both partners have to "play out" their scenarios and arrive at a solution that works well for today (nookie and TiVo) and for the future... Otherwise one will be happy and one will not be. Not because of the present one time event of football vs nookie but for the future of the relationship overall.

That is where the problem occurs, too much focus on today rather than tomorrow. I hope it makes sense, I have been thinking this way forever.


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## Craig49 (Jul 17, 2013)

This is a great thread, just finished reading the whole thing.
Some things are just so familiar that it is like I was writing some of the comments.
Been married 24 years, sexless for the past 3 1/2 years. No interest on either part to even go there. Communication sucks, thats the biggest issue from what I have learned over the past several months.
My wifes infidelity of 12 years ago has never been addressed and am in the process of doing this. She says she is sorry but it does not sound sincere. Is she sorry really or just worried about a meal ticket. I did mention that I was not happy with our relationship and am looking at getting out. Her first comment was that she did not want to live in a cardboard box. I would have thought and I love you would have been an appropriate answer. I am not the type to leave her high and dry, I would have thought she knew me better than that.

She has some big resentment issues towards me for things I am not even aware of. Thats not fair in my eyes. Resenting me for issues that I was not privy too. Kind of sad as she is my wife but yet did not convey these to me, and she blames me for not being approachable, so stuff just festers. I have also endured some of the simular things posted. 
Her heading to bed early, pretending she is a sleep so we would not have sex. Her telling me thats why I have a right hand. I mentioned to her a few weeks ago that when we did have sex, it seemed to me that I had sex with her, but she does not have sex with me. After a 3 year absence of sex, we tried about two months ago, and it was the same. I pleased her, she just laid there, then after she was done, I did my business as usual, then it was over. She has never actively seeked me out, and it has aways been me, doing the initiation. It just gets tiring, one sided, and the attraction is gone for that. I keep myslef clean, well groomed, and in good shape. I remember years ago her asking me not to grow any facial hair, or i would get nothing. I have not had facial hair due to this. Still does not matter, not getting any anyways. I am at my wits end with a sexless marriage. 
So many issues arise form this. Self confidence just goes down the toilet, feeling of being desired is gone, so I have become the bank, gardner, house cleaner, etc, and have realized that I am an enabler, do alot around the house while she sleeps in everyday, and never has time to do things around the house. It feels as if I have lost myself in all of this. My relationship is of no benefit to me, there is no affection, nothing its gone.
I will admit I am not the most perfect guy, none of us are, but it brings another question up, whats in this for me.
My daughters are grown, still living at home, I am concerned that they will get a poor image of what a relationship should look like. It is a concern I also have.
She has childhood issues that she has never dealt with, and I am so tired of excuse after excuse. We are in councelling, and she has an offer of 10 individual sessions available to her from my work, the phone number is on the fridge, but she has yet to even call.
I have found I am beginning to do things on my own for myself. Back to the sex topic, its huge for me. I dont want to remain like this. Its not healthy of satisfying to me in anyway. She knows I want sex, but have yet to draw a line in the sand. If I do draw a line in the sand, there is another issue with this. 
Is she having sex out of fear, or because she loves me??

It should not have to be like this but it is. Sex is a big part of a relationship, and it should not be this hard to get some action, but that just shows the current state of our relationship.

I could go on for a while but will end this for now.

Craig


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hard as it may seem to believe, try to detach self confidence from sex. You are who you are whether your wife, Selma Hayek, and whoever all converge on you at night or not.

If you have no overbearing issues at home detach the same way she is. If you're good in mind games do that as well. Do not sulk or take the lost puppy role. If you trust your emotions to not get you carried away vent your frustration to her often enough - not daily - and leave it at that. A war zone house becomes very non conducive to sleep ins.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One thing people often don't realize is that how people experience a sex drive can be vastly different. For some people it is like a hunger--something which just comes along on its own and must be satisfied. For others, it is more like a casual desire. When the situation is right, there is desire. Otherwise, there could be no desire.

Think about the HD spouse. Are they HD because of anything the spouse is doing? Likely not. Their drive is there regardless of how the spouse looks, acts, if the house is messy, if their job is going well, etc, etc. It has nothing to do with outside influences.

The LD spouse does not have the same innate need for sex. If they are on vacation or in a new relationship, they may want tons of sex. But if it's a random Tuesday, they don't have any desire and couldn't care less for it.

So the situation for the HD spouse is then to either create situations which create desire in the LD spouse or else leave to find a more compatible person. The LD spouse won't magically have desire.

Couples can make it work when the LD spouse realizes they need make an effort. They need to realize that they can't wait until they happen to feel like sex. They need to take steps to create environments where they feel like it or at least try to accommodate their partner. It can't be all up the HD partner to jump through hoops to entice the LD partner to have desire. The wife in the OP was not interested in doing any work, so I think he's better off moving on.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Craig49 said:


> This is a great thread, just finished reading the whole thing.
> Some things are just so familiar that it is like I was writing some of the comments.
> Been married 24 years, sexless for the past 3 1/2 years. No interest on either part to even go there. Communication sucks, thats the biggest issue from what I have learned over the past several months.
> My wifes infidelity of 12 years ago has never been addressed and am in the process of doing this. She says she is sorry but it does not sound sincere. Is she sorry really or just worried about a meal ticket. I did mention that I was not happy with our relationship and am looking at getting out. *Her first comment was that she did not want to live in a cardboard box*. I would have thought and I love you would have been an appropriate answer. I am not the type to leave her high and dry, I would have thought she knew me better than that.
> ...


Brother really sorry you are in this situation but that is just a dead giveaway(in red) that you are living with somebody that is using you for financial and physical security and IMHO one of most selfish things to do to another human being. I just can't imagine taking another person's resources while at the same time not wanting anything to do with them. 

Time to make some decisions.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Sanity said:


> Brother really sorry you are in this situation but that is just a dead giveaway(in red) that you are living with somebody that is using you for financial and physical security and IMHO one of most selfish things to do to another human being. I just can't imagine taking another person's resources while at the same time not wanting anything to do with them.
> 
> Time to make some decisions.


People who are comfortable having their partner in this position get tons of support.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

my wife fits in the category of using me for financial support, and just said recently she has no desire for sex. sigh...........


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> That is utterly appalling. I can't think of anything more hurtful than being told that...


It really is. I second that being the most hurtful thing ever said. My wife not only asked me if I'd be happier having an affair, but she also told me she didn't find me attractive. I don't offend easily or get my feelings hurt, but those two things were the most damning thing a husband can hear aside from "I'm cheating on you." I'll never forget it. Things are better now, though. I threatened to walk in January. She finally realized the magnitude of the problem, and after a lot of communication, she is more receptive and initiates more.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maybe I'm paranoid here but how genuine would intimacy be under the fear of walking?


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## hoju74 (May 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Maybe I'm paranoid here but how genuine would intimacy be under the fear of walking?


This is a concern of mine too. I recently had the courage to talk to my wife about our lackluster sex life . I didn't give the ultimatum of 'sex or I'm gone' but I made it known I'm unhappy and I can't go on like this.

It gets frustrating when it seems like you're the only one making any effort to change things.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
This is an incredibly eye opening post. Thank you for being so transparent.





Anon Pink said:


> lots of men empathizing with each other, but not a lot of ladies...
> 
> As one of the ladies this thread was directed to, I'll tell it from the LD wife's perspective. Granted, our early years of sexlessness was further complicated by a history of childhood sexual molestation but the dynamics of what you men are describing remain the same.
> 
> ...


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## constantlywaiting (Aug 28, 2013)

Ok so what about the flip side to this?? I am a woman. I have been married for 22 years and I am the one who is in what I feel like is a sexless marriage. Once every 3 weeks and only when I have to throw a fit is not what I signed up for.

Both of our children have left home, gone off to college. It is me and him in the house. No reason we shouldn't be having sex everywhere and very often.

He doesn't understand that being turned down REALLY hurts me. The rejection kills me every time. 

So tell me, why would a man be like this? What are reasons behind this? I am ready to hear the truth because I know I am not getting the answers from him.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

constantlywaiting said:


> Ok so what about the flip side to this?? I am a woman. I have been married for 22 years and I am the one who is in what I feel like is a sexless marriage. Once every 3 weeks and only when I have to throw a fit is not what I signed up for.
> 
> Both of our children have left home, gone off to college. It is me and him in the house. No reason we shouldn't be having sex everywhere and very often.
> 
> ...


The truth is that it could be a lot of different things. Simply Amorous recently posted a pretty good list of the 10 most common. It included things like medical issues (low T), he's bored, he's no longer attracted to you, past rejections, resentments and some other things. Could also be something like porn/masturbation overuse or cheating and getting his needs met elsewhere. There's no way to know without getting into a whole lot of details of your situation.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It is hard to think about unmet needs when yet he LD spouse does not even begin to acknowledge the overall issue or existence of needs, met or unmet.

I'm quite positive my wife's idea of intimacy frequency is right up there with cruising the high seas and attending graduation ceremonies. Happen from time to time, enjoyable when they happen, but nobody ever died from not cruising to Aruba...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

constantlywaiting said:


> Ok so what about the flip side to this?? I am a woman. I have been married for 22 years and I am the one who is in what I feel like is a sexless marriage. Once every 3 weeks and only when I have to throw a fit is not what I signed up for.
> 
> Both of our children have left home, gone off to college. It is me and him in the house. No reason we shouldn't be having sex everywhere and very often.
> 
> ...


That must be incredibly hurtful!

How is your relationship otherwise? 

Hopefully Working On Me can post a link to the thread. SA has a lot of great information.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

hoju74 said:


> This is a concern of mine too. I recently had the courage to talk to my wife about our lackluster sex life . I didn't give the ultimatum of 'sex or I'm gone' but I made it known I'm unhappy and I can't go on like this.
> 
> It gets frustrating when it seems like you're the only one making any effort to change things.


What holds you back from pushing your wife to be more open about why she isn't interested in sex?


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## constantlywaiting (Aug 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> That must be incredibly hurtful!
> 
> How is your relationship otherwise?
> 
> Hopefully Working On Me can post a link to the thread. SA has a lot of great information.


Otherwise things are ok. And I mean, ok. There are a lot of things that I have learned to live with and without over the years. This just seems to be the icing on the cake.

I have a million and one reasons to divorce him. I just cant cut the cord. But at this point if I cant even have a satisfying sex life, I don't know what else is left.

I actually asked him what he thought I got out of this relationship? I cook, I clean, I work. Cook, clean, work. That is my life. So I am sure he is happy he found a "good" wife but damn I want a lover too.

He says he just doesn't want it as much as I do. (once every 2 to 3 weeks is when I get it) and I told him just this past Sunday, this marriage is not just about you and when you want it. It's about me too!

Here it is Wednesday, still nothing. Headed into 3 weeks again.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

constantlywaiting said:


> Otherwise things are ok. And I mean, ok. There are a lot of things that I have learned to live with and without over the years. This just seems to be the icing on the cake.
> 
> I have a million and one reasons to divorce him. I just cant cut the cord. But at this point if I cant even have a satisfying sex life, I don't know what else is left.
> 
> ...


Damn you are so right!

Would you characterize your husband as being selfish or clueless?

My H was the same way but luckily he is not selfish, just hopelessly clueless. Work, cook, clean, kids... That is NOT a life! Like you I reached the age where I had been there and done that and he either came with me or I left him at home. And at home he sat when I made plans with friends. At home he sat when I went with the girls for the weekend. That took about a year and then he started to get off his ass. When he learned I had plans with friend on Friday, he would make plans for us on Saturday. When I continued with my twice yearly girls weekend, he started to do every other month hotel nights in town or weekends out of town.

Maybe your husband is like mine and he needs to see you out there and enjoying life before he comes to terms with how serious you are about enjoying life? Maybe, once he starts to enjoy life, he'll start to get that old sex drive back.

I'd still make sure his testosterone levels get checked. Get him to exercise regularly, ( my H talks a good game but in the end he walks about once every 9 days)

Maybe your guy is just stuck in a rut and since it's such a comfy rut he has no reason to leave his little rut?


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## lfortender (Sep 18, 2012)

Sometimes i think in divorce too due to lack of sex.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

lfortender said:


> Sometimes i think in divorce too due to lack of sex.


Your wife is a sheltered, ignorant -as in lacks appropriate information, 19 year old girl! *

How dare you contemplate divorce when you haven't even taught your wife the joys of uninhibited sex free from religious constriction and overbearing pare*nts!

Disgusting!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Damn you are so right!
> 
> Would you characterize your husband as being selfish or clueless?


The two terms are euphemisms for my corresponding terms of "evil" and "stupid" respectively 

Regardless, does he want to do anything about it?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> The two terms are euphemisms for my corresponding terms of "evil" and "stupid" respectively
> 
> Regardless, does he want to do anything about it?


Sometimes you go right over my head, other times...straight to the funny bone!


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## constantlywaiting (Aug 28, 2013)

As I said, when we argue about it he always says I am just addicted to sex. Great. Once again the problem is all mine.

We are schedule to go on vacay in a couple of weeks. I have determined that how this vacay goes will determine just how much more effort I am willing to put into this marriage.

Past vacays have left me shaking my head about why because of lack of sex, lack of him wanting to do what I want, any interest in anything but himself.

He doesn't see himself as having the problem. It is just me being overly active!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If my trip to Alaska last year was any indication I got to see many bears and whales but not 1st base


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Can I suggest you let him know exactly what you expect from him before vaca starts. 

I gave my H a similar ultimatum, sort of, several years ago. Shot myself in the foot because it just shut him down ever further. You know your husband best and you know what the truth is in your heart. If you really really are ready to end this, then just end it. Otherwise take steps to reawaken him, reassure him, and show him love enough that he can make those difficult changes. It's a long hard road to build over rubble. But building over rubble is better than living on the fence!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Poor John. I think you should start interviewing for the next lovely Mrs. Dr. LD. Just interviewing mind you, no internships!


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## constantlywaiting (Aug 28, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Can I suggest you let him know exactly what you expect from him before vaca starts.
> 
> I gave my H a similar ultimatum, sort of, several years ago. Shot myself in the foot because it just shut him down ever further. You know your husband best and you know what the truth is in your heart. If you really really are ready to end this, then just end it. Otherwise take steps to reawaken him, reassure him, and show him love enough that he can make those difficult changes. It's a long hard road to build over rubble. But building over rubble is better than living on the fence!


I have let him know my expectations several times. There is no excuse for him to not know what I want. I have never been a woman who needed to come with an instruction manual. I am very vocal about what I want/don't want in regards to everything!

BTW, to add he is an alcoholic, so there are more than just sex problems here. But as I posted above, there is only so much I can take before I have to just give up!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh, alcohol abuse is a whole different ball game. It doesn't sound promising for you to find happiness with this man without some drastic measures on both your parts.

Have you joined Alanon?


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

My wife told me she has no desire for sex, which to me means she does not find me attractive, It has been 2 weeks now which is a lot to me. I refuse to beg this time, I should not have to beg for sex!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

edbopc said:


> My wife told me she has no desire for sex, which to me means she does not find me attractive, It has been 2 weeks now which is a lot to me. I refuse to beg this time, I should not have to beg for sex!


Don't let it stop there. She said she has no desire for sex...you ask why? You ask what has happened to make you loose interest in our relationship? You also ask if she expects you to be okay with not having sex? You then let her know you are NOT okay with this and you are not okay with being in a loveless sexless marriage. You keep asking and keep talking because your needs are important too.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Before you embark in ultimatums and attempts to rebuild first assess whether the relationship is fixable in the first place, what are the odds, what will it take to fix assuming the fairy sprinkles ample amounts of dust your way, and whether it is worth it. 

Do not assume everything is fixable or worth fixing. If you're not willing to bail, stop expecting anything and do a 180.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Like talking to a tree....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Poor John. I think you should start interviewing for the next lovely Mrs. Dr. LD. Just interviewing mind you, no internships!


The odds of finding a single, available, and willing, preferably Asian, high earner in her late 40's to 50's that is preferably a PhD and is also an unabashed HD that has no skeletons in her closet are about as those of me running a 4 minute mile....

Interns are not my cup of tea. Co-ops on the other hand


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

edbopc said:


> My wife told me she has no desire for sex, which to me means she does not find me attractive, It has been 2 weeks now which is a lot to me. I refuse to beg this time, I should not have to beg for sex!


2 weeks. Wait till 2 months and then 2 years. It may be some "empowerment" crap, just cause she's married to you doesn't mean she has to do anything for you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> The odds of finding a single, available, and willing, preferably Asian, high earner in her late 40's to 50's that is preferably a PhD and is also an unabashed HD that has no skeletons in her closet are about as those of me running a 4 minute mile....
> 
> Interns are not my cup of tea. Co-ops on the other hand


This is true if those are your must haves. But stranger things have happened. I do wish you happiness though.

Co-ops? Would that be like borrowing?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

edbopc said:


> Like talking to a tree....


The strange Dr. Mrs. LD has been known to talk to her trees while watering them. The code phrase "mom is having sex with her trees" indicates mom is watering her precious chlorophyll based life forms...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> This is true if those are your must haves. But stranger things have happened. I do wish you happiness though.
> 
> Co-ops? Would that be like borrowing?


Not all are must haves, but the odds of finding someone that has most of those and is available are not in my favor... 

But, stranger things have happened.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

edbopc said:


> Like talking to a tree....


What does that mean? She remains silent or her responses don't make sense?


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

its pretty silent here, she always has the nook in her lap...and she has the attitude she is never wrong....I am just feeling like I am shutting down...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The typical responses I receive when the issue is brought up include:

- emotional connection is for 15 year olds not 55 year olds.
- my body cannot handle more than once every {interval}. This from a healthy, size 6 130 lb ho can walk 5-7 miles at 100F or work 18 hours a day for months on end.
- PDA is for teenagers
- all you think of is xxxxx
- I am too stressed out from work (perhaps if she did not play the Bionic Woman at work...)

I'll take my chances talking to the tree.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Shutting down... This is like raving a red flag in my face. 

This is your life! You can't just shut down because it won't solve anything...at all!

Keeep asking, keep talking, take the nook away and ask her to look at you.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

I am off work after tomorrow, I will wait till then and the kids will be at school, also thinkin bout the books, sex starved marriage and his needs her needs.....cant hurt...


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

john117, heard all that before too....


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I always see the same 3 choices given to people who have physically healthy spouses starving them of sex:
1. Learn to accept sexual starvation and chronic rejection 
2. Divorce
3. Cheat 

All ugly choices. Even more so if everything else is good. 

Far better to have this conversation. 

- I love you and am committed to you and our family. 
- Other than sex we have a solid marriage. 
- I have decided on an approach to that issue that removes all the pressure of doing something you don't want to do. 
- For the forseeable future we simply wont have sex. i wont initiate and ask that you accept that I don't want you to initiate either. This should reduce the tension and conflict we both feel. It will allow us to hug or spoon while watching a movie without you worrying if it will lead to me wanting sex. 
- I know that you sometimes feel anxious and worried that I am going to 'initiate' sex. And that because you love and care about me you feel guilty when you reject me. This fixes that. 
- I believe that you love and care about me. And that you know me well enough to understand that long term forced celibacy would continue to be chronically stressful and unhealthy for ME. 
- And being a decent person I also know that you would not try to demand or force me to be celibate as that is miserable, unhealthy - and frankly not acceptable to me. 
- Most men in this situation have affairs and hope nothing bad happens. And hope that if they do get caught - it won't become public knowledge and humiliate their wives. 
- I am not going to do anything like that - risk embarrassing you in front of all our friends and family. Because the way that plays out is everyone always asks - why would he do such a thing. I don't want to tell everyone in our family and friends that you have been basically starving me of my most important need for such a long time. I don't want them to think you're a bad wife. 
- Starting next week, twice a week I am going to go out for a few hours. I am going to get a full body massage with some sort of happy ending. This way there is no risk of me falling in love, or a girlfriend turning into a stalker. 

And then be silent and let her respond. 

My view of this is very simple. If your spouse believes they can:
- Demand your celibacy and 
- They are willing to try to enforce that demand at gunpoint via threat of divorce over this type of discrete arrangement - then your marriage is parasitic and not symbiotic

If you wish to stay with a parasite, that is your choice. You should simply do so with your eyes wide open. 



QUOTE=john117;3917562]Maybe I'm paranoid here but how genuine would intimacy be under the fear of walking?[/QUOTE]


QUOTE=john117;3917562]Maybe I'm paranoid here but how genuine would intimacy be under the fear of walking?[/QUOTE]


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I couldn't agree more! Thinking back to when things were at their worst, if my husband laid it all out like this, I would have started to fix me a LOT sooner.

Bravo MEM!


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

honestly I don't think that would go over well here, not the massage part, honestly in my small town there is no "massage parlor"


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It won't go over well. Thats the whole point! This expresses your need for sex, for satisfying sexual experiences with your wife. The part about a wife expecting her husband to be celibate is I think particularly insightful. Of course she will dismiss it at first. But you've planted the seeds and watered them. So staying the course, on this new course, is going to be impactful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not quite this simple, I am afraid.

It might work with someone that is more "stupid" than "evil" or more clueless than selfish, but such people are not Stage IV LD's. 

A Stage IV LD will make a huge issue out of the whole idea, simply because they do not want to change the status quo. Any change or threat of change may be catastrophic. Unless the non LD is prepared to walk, on the spot, it ain't happening.

As a recent former US President found out, a woman scorned etc etc. the objective is not for THEM to not have sex again, but for their PARTNERS to not have it. 

As I said it may work for vanilla LD fixable by the usual aphorisms like NMMNG or MMSL but one does not reach Stage IV overnight. It's all about control, and by letting the partner have a free for all card they lose all the control. Why would I care about home LD when I have Hannah the Co-Op from the instrumentation lab all buttered up?

Remember what I wrote in another thread. Play out outcomes and odds in your head and see.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I disagree John, you are describing a wife with some sort of personality disorder. That is not what most men are dealing with. MEM's idea won't work for such a wife as you describe...in fact nothing will so walking is your only choice. But with otherwise healthy women, MEM's speech will trigger some serious angst which will also trigger so,e serious honest thinking and hopefully talking.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I disagree John, you are describing a wife with some sort of personality disorder. That is not what most men are dealing with. MEM's idea won't work for such a wife as you describe....


Well, as a matter of fact I am describing a wife with the mother of all personality disorders, resentments galore, stress a plenty, ad infinitum ad nauseaum, and it works out nookie wise considerably better than many "normal" LD wives who need to be nudged into more nookie by the miracles of NMMNG or MMSL. I.e. the "5 times a year for 10 years etc" crowd...

Once you get past a few key metrics in both quantity and quality you're in Stage III LD at least, and at that point double dating with Athol Key and Dr. Ruth won't fix anything.

Maybe I should apply for a NIH grant to go thru TAM SIM and classify all the LD threads as Stage I thru IV then follow up and see what the efficacy of conventional suggestions such as MMSL etc or more radical ones like walking out is by severity (Stage), etc. was...

I would not assume that just because a marriage is self reporting as "great except for sex" is free of toxicity or has not degenerated to the point of no return. It probably has, and it could well be that the partners don't know it yet. Most people's optimism seems to eclipse reality.

I feel there are some time and quality metric thresholds that once reached, it's game over for DIY marriage treatments. Just a guess, but this could be in the order of under 10 a year, for 3-4 years, after such and such years of marriage... Just a guess... A normal marriage does not degenerate to that level because of simple reasons...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Well, as a matter of fact I am describing a wife with the mother of all personality disorders, resentments galore, stress a plenty, ad infinitum ad nauseaum, and it works out nookie wise considerably better than many "normal" LD wives who need to be nudged into more nookie by the miracles of NMMNG or MMSL. I.e. the "5 times a year for 10 years etc" crowd...
> 
> Once you get past a few key metrics in both quantity and quality you're in Stage III LD at least, and at that point double dating with Athol Key and Dr. Ruth won't fix anything.
> 
> ...


I think you're on to something there. having those metrics at a glance sure would improve the lives of many fence sitters!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I think you're on to something there. having those metrics at a glance sure would improve the lives of many fence sitters!


I could even ask Dr. Mrs. LD to run the numbers. I'm quite sure she would not mind... :rofl:

Humans have problems with numbers in general. They don't see obvious patterns, or they create patterns (of behavior) and think others don't see them. I recall a coworker who got fired when HR finally figured out that there was a significant correlation between sick days taken when our boss was out of town. Like, huge correlation. 

It's not any different with LD's somehow, magically, finding an active excuse to avoid nookie. By nature, and by training, I notice details and patterns quickly. When the Rapture with the good Dr. occurred, it was not really a 'no nookie for you from now on' thing. Relatively slowly, mystery ailments began to appear, fights would be instigated as by clockwork, and so on. Didn't take me long to toss the numbers into Excel and see for myself... 

That's where communication comes into play. If a partner switches to LD mode for a decade, or half that, he or she knows what they're doing. They're pretty good at it. The non LD has to raise the issue in a non-accusatory, more an exploratory tone, as in, "we are here, what would it take to get there". Maybe there's no path. Be upfront and say so.

What is really hurting is not the issue of withholding intimacy. It's the matter by which it is done, as if to assume the other partner's needs don't exist, or if they do, that he or she can be fooled by the weekly appearances of Aunt Allergy and Uncle Overtime. 

People fall into their comfort zone and refuse to believe that there's a way out. They grab the power that withholding provides and run with it. To them, losing this power is unthinkable. It's incredible, but it's common as fruit flies.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

At 50, I can see the truth in what you write. But as I look back, which I really hate to do, I would not have agreed at all. I felt totally powerless. The hiding and headaches and snarky arguments where my pathetic attempt to protect myself from having to confront something I didn't want to confront. I didn't see it as power, but a complete lack of power.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Most, not all, people are so adamant to jump up and say, read this or read that. Most of these tactics have been tried one way or another in some form or fashion. After years of rejection and trying everything there is to try you get to a point to where, just dont give a a damn. I cant speak for the ladies with an ld husband. As a guy though its probably alot different. I think for most, after repeated rejection and jumping through hoops and not getting any results, just gets old after a while. Why jump though hoops to begin with? Cant speak for all guys either and I dont intend on doing so. After so long and trying everything, attitudes get heated and views change to a point to where you get tired of having a roomate instead of a wife. It shakes a mans ego to the core when he's jerking off in the shower and thinking "8th graders have more sex than I do". By this time, whats the point?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Those tactics are recommended because enough people used them successfully.

I just hate to see anyone give up on happiness, real heartfelt happiness. Life is too short. Life is a gift we only get once. No do overs. When I look back I HATE the time I wasted! How I wish my husband would have kicked my ass when I was 30 instead of me kicking his ass at 40 and demanding an excellent sex life!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> At 50, I can see the truth in what you write. But as I look back, which I really hate to do, I would not have agreed at all. I felt totally powerless. The hiding and headaches and snarky arguments where my pathetic attempt to protect myself from having to confront something I didn't want to confront. I didn't see it as power, but a complete lack of power.


The perceived complete lack of power leads to withholding which in itself is about the only power they feel they have. That's the whole power struggle of it.

I don't feel powerless in general. I am extremely resourceful and can solve most anything coming my way or even better, avoid issues ahead of time by planning for contingencies. My wife, on the other hand, freaks out over the smallest thing (yet handles complex analytics problems effortlessly...) so it is no surprise that she has to resort to such antics to feel she has something to control.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Those tactics are recommended because enough people used them successfully.


When the situation is applicable, 100% agreement. Unfortunately many of the people on TAM appear to have high tolerance for misery hence by the time they come here it may be too late for DIY solutions or any solutions.



> Ijust hate to see anyone give up on happiness, real heartfelt happiness. Life is too short. Life is a gift we only get once. No do overs. When I look back I HATE the time I wasted! How I wish my husband would have kicked my ass when I was 30 instead of me kicking his ass at 40 and demanding an excellent sex life!


For many people bring in "control" is far more important than being happy. They see happiness as a temporal blip in the recording chart while control to them is a 24/7/365 necessity.

Start thinking of happiness seeking vs sex seeking and you see it's all the same.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I have read your stuff and consider you a very bright guy. I'm asking you to momentarily suspend disbelief and objectively assess the analysis below.

A few years ago I successfully used the 'massage envy' strategy described in my prior post. By 'successfully' I mean that it produced a positive outcome for my marriage. Before doing so, I compared 'massage envy' to the aspects of 'affairs' that make them so ugly. 

Affairs are primarily ugly because they expose your spouse to the following risks without their knowledge:
Disease (unless you and your spouse have absolutely zero sexual contact - not even a French kiss - you are exposing them to risk of disease).
Destabilization of the of the marriage up to and including divorce
Extreme emotional distress - when for instance your affair partners husband calls her out of the blue and exposes the affair. Or your AP shows up on your doorstep visibly pregnant to tell your wife that ummmm - you are the father. 
While rare - affairs sometimes lead to stalking or aggression towards a sexual rival. If your affair partner falls completely in love with you, all bets are off. 
Massive loss of trust if/when discovered. 

The candid, direct conversation about an erotic massage with a happy ending eliminates these issues. 

And the discussion of this plan produces an MRI of the current state of your marriage. Like a real MRI the process is typically loud, intense and overlaid with anxiety about whether the resulting image will show stage 4 metastatic cancer, or a very manageable, localized tumor. 

Analyzing the results:
W tells you she is divorcing you and then does so because:
- She absolutely believes in her right to demand your celibacy 
- She has no interest in remaining married to a man with no morals
- She is outraged that you would even question her ownership of your body

This response is the result of a toxic power/control dynamic. Your W sees you as a possession/servant. You don't have the right to challenge her behavior/neglect. Her fury at being challenged blocks her ability to consider your needs, the impact of divorce on your kids, etc. 

Treatment option: Let the cancer in your life 'self excise'

2. W plays a calculated game of chicken with you. This is typically done by:
- Threatening to divorce you IF you follow through on your plan
- While simultaneously telling you she is now so hurt and angry by your planned betrayal that she has even less interest in having sex with you

This is not much different than (1). She wants the marriage to continue - and sees this as an opportunity to tilt the give/take of marriage even more in her favor by claiming 'extreme victim' status. 

Given this diagnosis there are two treatment options that will improve your situation:
Go 'all in' just like in a poker game - where you push ALL your chips into the pot and say 'I call'. Proceed with your plan and let her show her 'real hand'. 
For the more risk averse: Tell her that you understand her position and have adjusted your plans accordingly. 
- You ARE going to get twice weekly full body massages - for the moment you will skip the happy ending AND
- Since she is so certain that it is her right to demand your celibacy - she won't mind that you fully intend to EXPOSE the truth of your sexless marriage to your friends, family and in a somewhat vague PG manner - to your adult children. This reverses the victim dynamic completely. 

3. W flips out and attempts a tactical intimidation without mentioning divorce. You stay firm on your plan. She then overtly or covertly signals acceptance. 

Diagnosis: She has some level of sexual aversion towards you. 

Treatment option: Proceed with ME as that is actually best for both of you. Be low key about it - do NOT come home from your massage singing some happy song like 'whistle while you work' from Snow White. 

Potential side effects of treatment: 
Wife decides this is an open license for her to have a 'real affair'. Treat ANY inappropriate behavior on her part the exact same as if you were not doing the ME thing. This is NOT an affair and not like an affair. This is simply a sanity preservation step - short of divorce. 
Wife sees this as a license to be even more difficult/unreasonable because you 'owe' her for letting you do this. Sorry - no. This is a half measure for minimizing the harm of her neglect. She does not get to punish you or reward herself because you are working around her neglect. 

4. W flips out - and then quickly becomes hyper sexual and engages in intense hysterical bonding for a while. 

Diagnosis: She was being a power/sadist and using sex to exert control AND punish you. The control freak/power sadist is VERY common - MUCH more common than people like to believe. She does love you and does want to stay married. And given a choice - she would rather retain control of your sex life - since she is being forced to give up the sadism either way.   

Treatment option: Use this window of time to get better at making sex as enjoyable as possible for her. Do NOT take advantage of her anxiety. 



QUOTE=john117;3928138]Not quite this simple, I am afraid.

It might work with someone that is more "stupid" than "evil" or more clueless than selfish, but such people are not Stage IV LD's. 

A Stage IV LD will make a huge issue out of the whole idea, simply because they do not want to change the status quo. Any change or threat of change may be catastrophic. Unless the non LD is prepared to walk, on the spot, it ain't happening.

As a recent former US President found out, a woman scorned etc etc. the objective is not for THEM to not have sex again, but for their PARTNERS to not have it. 

As I said it may work for vanilla LD fixable by the usual aphorisms like NMMNG or MMSL but one does not reach Stage IV overnight. It's all about control, and by letting the partner have a free for all card they lose all the control. Why would I care about home LD when I have Hannah the Co-Op from the instrumentation lab all buttered up?

Remember what I wrote in another thread. Play out outcomes and odds in your head and see.[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Anon,
Your post and Johns reply resonated with me in a kind of scary way. 

When we met my W had a strong career going. But she wanted to be a SAHM after we married. Fine by me. 

I was hardworking and lucky - she was good at managing money. 

She was always controlling. As she aged she got more so. At a certain point, on a couple of things that I really cared about I said:
- this is a BIG deal to me - you need to stop. 

And she wouldn't or couldn't. So one day - in despair - I ask myself why the 'go to guy' at work for nasty math problems and difficult client problems has a wife who is becoming unbearably controlling. 

Anon - I get why you withheld sex. Because at the bottom of the trough I had this 'ah ha' moment. And I quit my job. And I eventually screwed up the courage (took a while) to say this to my wife: you have gotten so controlling about everything - including money - that I am done working to support you. At best I will meet you halfway in terms of working. This is the result of fighting with me over $20 or $200 things that I wanted in the same year where I fully supported $20,000 in discretionary spending for things you wanted. 

For certain my W did not intend to kill my desire to provide for her unconditionally, she simply couldn't or wouldn't manage her need to micro manage everything. 



---------------
Originally Posted by Anon Pink 
At 50, I can see the truth in what you write. But as I look back, which I really hate to do, I would not have agreed at all. I felt totally powerless. The hiding and headaches and snarky arguments where my pathetic attempt to protect myself from having to confront something I didn't want to confront. I didn't see it as power, but a complete lack of power.
----------------

The perceived complete lack of power leads to withholding which in itself is about the only power they feel they have. That's the whole power struggle of it.

I don't feel powerless in general. I am extremely resourceful and can solve most anything coming my way or even better, avoid issues ahead of time by planning for contingencies. My wife, on the other hand, freaks out over the smallest thing (yet handles complex analytics problems effortlessly...) so it is no surprise that she has to resort to such antics to feel she has something to control.




QUOTE=john117;3936122]The perceived complete lack of power leads to withholding which in itself is about the only power they feel they have. That's the whole power struggle of it.

I don't feel powerless in general. I am extremely resourceful and can solve most anything coming my way or even better, avoid issues ahead of time by planning for contingencies. My wife, on the other hand, freaks out over the smallest thing (yet handles complex analytics problems effortlessly...) so it is no surprise that she has to resort to such antics to feel she has something to control.[/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Anon,
> And she wouldn't or couldn't. So one day - in despair - I ask myself why the 'go to guy' at work for nasty math problems and difficult client problems has a wife who is becoming unbearably controlling.
> 
> Anon - I get why you withheld sex. Because at the bottom of the trough I had this 'ah ha' moment. And I quit my job. And I eventually screwed up the courage (took a while) to say this to my wife: you have gotten so controlling about everything - including money - that I am done working to support you. At best I will meet you halfway in terms of working. This is the result of fighting with me over $20 or $200 things that I wanted in the same year where I fully supported $20,000 in discretionary spending for things you wanted.


A couple of comments on this. The control in general I have no problem with. I'm very good at framing issues such that the decisions are self evident. I'm also good at reading people so it is not difficult to, how to put it, get them to decide what I want. Works well. The one time I threatened to walk was over my older girls choice of college and field. While her subsequent stellar academic success and ample demonstration of talent needed in her field are obvious the good Dr. seems to have forgotten all about the rift she caused...

For the second paragraph I do have a problem with the money part. With two 10-year tuitions to pay, we're talking several hundred thousand dollars. I make good money but not THAT good . So the good Dr.'s financial contributions are needed... So it's a trade off of divorce and seek nookie elsewhere versus tuition... Since I'm the one the girls notify when they get scholarships or awards or good grades etc I value that more than nookie, so it's not a difficult decision for me.

Maybe there should be nookie FAFSA?


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Tonight is the night for my wife talk after the kids go to bed, hope this goes the right direction......


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I was in no way implying you should quit your job. 

As for framing issues in a way that is fair and gets a good result - well I am very comfortable and practiced at doing so. 

The job quitting won't impact our childrens college budgets - already fully funded. We have saved a lot - over the years. 

It came after a few rounds that were a bit similar to what you described just before getting on an Alaskan cruise. 

Funny thing - my wife has now realized that the kids and I have 'control fatigue' and has recently made a major effort to let go of stuff she previously seemed unable to. 

You and I definitely frame the sex issue differently. You describe it as: 

I won't disrupt our lives for a little bit of nookie. 

I describe it as: 
I would not object to being divorced by someone who blatantly deprioritized me by giving me the choice of forced celibacy or divorce. It would feel like total emotinal castration to me. 

No offense intended John but you have gone to great lengths to emphasize that your wife needs you way more than you need her. But your actions are those of someone in quite the opposite situation. 





john117 said:


> A couple of comments on this. The control in general I have no problem with. I'm very good at framing issues such that the decisions are self evident. I'm also good at reading people so it is not difficult to, how to put it, get them to decide what I want. Works well. The one time I threatened to walk was over my older girls choice of college and field. While her subsequent stellar academic success and ample demonstration of talent needed in her field are obvious the good Dr. seems to have forgotten all about the rift she caused...
> 
> For the second paragraph I do have a problem with the money part. With two 10-year tuitions to pay, we're talking several hundred thousand dollars. I make good money but not THAT good . So the good Dr.'s financial contributions are needed... So it's a trade off of divorce and seek nookie elsewhere versus tuition... Since I'm the one the girls notify when they get scholarships or awards or good grades etc I value that more than nookie, so it's not a difficult decision for me.
> 
> Maybe there should be nookie FAFSA?


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

The last couple posts were simply amazing and very well thought out. 

Probably do not apply for every situation, but you have to appreciate all the thought put into it. 

Constantly trying to meet the needs of a LD spouse, is the craziest thing any person can do. That much I am sure of. 

They response slightly better, when they start to realize, they aren't needed. Then you just need to apply assurance.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

edbopc said:


> Tonight is the night for my wife talk after the kids go to bed, hope this goes the right direction......


Good luck Ed, I'm crossing my fingers for you. reminding you that you have every right to have your sexual needs met. needing and wanting sex with your wife doesn't make you a sex freak or a pervert, it makes you a human!

Can I just say I had the word pervert like 10 times before auto correct would let me write the damn word my way!


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Good luck Ed, I'm crossing my fingers for you. reminding you that you have every right to have your sexual needs met. needing and wanting sex with your wife doesn't make you a sex freak or a pervert, it makes you a human!
> 
> Can I just say I had the word pervert like 10 times before auto correct would let me write the damn word my way!


Thanx, will need it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> As for framing issues in a way that is fair and gets a good result - well I am very comfortable and practiced at doing so.


My objective is not fairness .It's doing whatever is needed to make it to retirement...



MEM11363 said:


> The job quitting won't impact our childrens college budgets - already fully funded. We have saved a lot - over the years.


There's no such thing as fully funded, believe me. Not when the plan is for probably 20 years between two children.



MEM11363 said:


> You and I definitely frame the sex issue differently. You describe it as:
> 
> I won't disrupt our lives for a little bit of nookie.
> 
> ...


As a matter of fact, our lives have been disrupted by quite a bit. That's not my intention. I have my priorities, she has hers. If I'm deprioritized, so is she. If emotions have gone bye bye from her, they have from me. She knows that, I know that. 

Rapture #2 is approaching in a couple years, where we should be selling our humongous house and downsize. Not retire, as I'm having way too much fun at work, but downsize, probably close to one or both girls. Unfortunately their choice of college towns leaves a bit to be desired for retirement except for a couple choice spots... At Rapture #2 day it's basically an either-or situation. Just like it was during Rapture #1. Reality prevailed during #1, I don't see anything different in #2. 

I don't let a single thing define me. I have a huge ego, commensurate with my education and accomplishments, so I'm not going to let some random lady from Farawaystan rain on my parade. 



MEM11363 said:


> No offense intended John but you have gone to great lengths to emphasize that your wife needs you way more than you need her. But your actions are those of someone in quite the opposite situation.


We'll disagree on this one. The difference is really what the word 'needs' means. On my income, which is higher than hers, I'm still way ahead of the game. I can pay for a good state university, not a private, plus there's always scholarships and the like, or loans, especially when one of the two is going for medical school. Not the first, not the last. So, need here is relative. 

In her case, need is exactly what it means, she's likely toast without me. I'm not just saying this, if you ever lived with someone with BPD, there are things they can do, things they can't do, and if they're 'abandoned', there's very little they can do. Her family in the old country has pretty much abandoned her. Living here would not be a good choice for her either, not in such a state of mind. So, I'm quite certain that the word 'need' means quite different things between us.

Besides, she did not choose to get BPD. She did not choose to have a whole bunch of unfortunate events happen to her. She can choose to continue to behave like this, and I can choose to ignore her. She did not choose to be abandoned by her parents, emotionally, financially, and so on. 

Don't confuse superficial power struggles for 'control' with more serious issues. I wish it was all lovey dovey but it will not be. Maybe if it is, someday, you'll read about it in Nature


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> The candid, direct conversation about an erotic massage with a happy ending eliminates these issues.


That takes care of physical needs at a raw level. I'm sure I could do better than that by returning to my birth country where hookers are a dime a dozen :smthumbup:

But all those are validations that I'm a sex-seeking maniac (they're not, of course, but to her they are). 

If I had to guess, her reaction would be spending a few thousand dollars to add to her collectibles, jewelry, and the like. She would pout. complain, etc. but nothing more than that. 

Not everyone is guided by hormones, I guess.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Well after my conservation with my wife last night about no sex, I am figuring this is the beginning of the end. After I heard the usual things as sex is all I ever think about she finally blurted out sex with me does nothing for her. At this time all we are is 2 people sharing a house with me hurting the worst.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Ed, I'm so sorry. I can imagine you may feel devastated and very personally rejected. Take some time today and just let your thoughts wander. Post more if you want. Don't make any decisions until you have given yourself a week or more to go through all the emotions...

{{{{Hug}}}}


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

thanks anon, my real name is mike


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The only emotion worth having at this point would be revenge. If she does not want to play along, how not so comfy can you make her life in one or more fronts?

I'm not saying this lightly. People of other cultures have a thing or two to teach us. 

In my view that is the real NMMNG.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

devastation is what I am feeling


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Ed/Mike...lol.. I have written many posts about LD wives, where they come from, how they got there, and how to get out of it and there is one essential truth that I want you to think about. A woman who finds no pleasure with her husband is a woman who doesn't participate in finding that pleasure. Women aren't mind readers and neither are men. If your wife has truly closed the door of making her sex life wonderful, you are wasting your time. There are plenty of women out there who do know how to participate in finding their pleasure and there are plenty of women who are willing to try as long as they can feel loved and cherished and cared for.

I agree with John's sentiments, although the word revenge doesn't feel right. Step back from this relationship and start focusing completely on what makes you happy, what makes you excited, what peaked your interest and what makes you feel good about you.

The next Mrs Ed/Mike is out there.


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## Running Mom (Aug 13, 2013)

I didn't even get to the bottom of page 2 of this thread before jumping on my husband. So much of what was said are things that my husband and I have talked about over the years. Now where's that LD Intervention thread.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I agree with John's sentiments, although the word revenge doesn't feel right.


Darn my undergraduate English as a Second Language class (where, ironically, I met Dr. Mrs. LD )...

Revenge is too strong of a word, true that. Payback maybe?


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Am reading book his needs her needs now, give it a try and see if wife will read it. I am an old dad at almost 55 who is getting old for divorce and dating game and part of this bad situation I am sure is mine. I have to atleast give it a try with 2 boys still at home. By the way edbopc means something, "erectile dysfunction because of prostate cancer". Yes I have ED but am using injections which work for me, but as my wife told me last night "that's all I think about is sex!"


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

edbopc said:


> Am reading book his needs her needs now, give it a try and see if wife will read it. I am an old dad at almost 55 who is getting old for divorce and dating game and part of this bad situation I am sure is mine. I have to atleast give it a try with 2 boys still at home. By the way edbopc means something, "erectile dysfunction because of prostate cancer". Yes I have ED but am using injections which work for me, but as my wife told me last night "that's all I think about is sex!"


You know...I had disfiguring cancer, got reconstruction. Just like during pregnancy, it was obvious to me that my husband wasn't turned on by a pregnant wife. But after cancer, he left me space. So much space that it seemed he didn't want this woman with the disfigured chest. I talked about reconstruction, joked about getting bionic boobies...these were all his cues to reassure me. Nope Effing silent as usual. "I didn't know you wanted reassurance. What could I have said that would change your mind about being disfigured?" What a clueless d!ckhead! How did I marry a man who was beyond stupid!

Why I can give a pass to man for being clueless, yet not to a woman who MUST know that after prostate cancer, you would NEED reassurance beyond the norm...and she withholds!

Inexcusable! Leave her!

Listen to me...hah! Like I could take my own advice!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Darn my undergraduate English as a Second Language class (where, ironically, I met Dr. Mrs. LD )...
> 
> Revenge is too strong of a word, true that. Payback maybe?


I like "comeuppance" less vengeance and more natural consequence!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Mike then ask her if it's ok to get your needs taken care of with someone else. I would love to see her reaction
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

I wouldn't ask that unless you're prepared for the answer to be "yes" and she means it. Though I support the idea that it will provide a clear insight into her thinking. Just be sure you're ready for it being a real possibility.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

Have to think this through.....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

DaytoDay said:


> I wouldn't ask that unless you're prepared for the answer to be "yes" and she means it. Though I support the idea that it will provide a clear insight into her thinking. Just be sure you're ready for it being a real possibility.


And if it is a real possibility? What then? It means she has zero thoughts of how this affects him. I find that an appalling possibility. What if he came home one day and said I quit work and bought into a bar, gonna be working nights and weekends and the money won't be as good, but damn I am so sick of getting up early!


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> It means she has zero thoughts of how this affects him.


 I'm not saying don't do it, just be prepared for the response. It's one thing to imagine it, another thing entirely to hear it confirmed. Painful at best.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

edbopc said:


> Am reading book his needs her needs now, give it a try and see if wife will read it. I am an old dad at almost 55 who is getting old for divorce and dating game and part of this bad situation I am sure is mine. I have to atleast give it a try with 2 boys still at home. By the way edbopc means something, "erectile dysfunction because of prostate cancer". Yes I have ED but am using injections which work for me, but as my wife told me last night "that's all I think about is sex!"


My brother finally left his psycho b!tch wife at 50. he met a beautiful stunning lovely woman who loved him. he told me, You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me. he died from ALS at 55. He NEVER regretting leaving his wife even though that B!TCH did her level best to make his last days as miserable as she could.

"You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me."


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## IndyTMI (Oct 26, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> "You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me."


There are no truer words...as this is exactly where I am at now!

Finding someone that actually reciprocates everything I put forth...it's like waking up one morning and realizing there actually are Utopian type relationships out there!


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

I was thru 1 divorce years ago, wife cheated on me, go figure. I was raising 1 daughter on my own and the other daughter went to live with the x. I was dateless and no sex for around 10 years then. I still feel like a teen in the sex department after the cancer crap even. Now wife has no sex ideas. She needs to go to the doctor and see if they can do anything about the low drive problem she has. That is my first thoughts.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> My brother finally left his psycho b!tch wife at 50. he met a beautiful stunning lovely woman who loved him. he told me, You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me. he died from ALS at 55. He NEVER regretting leaving his wife even though that B!TCH did her level best to make his last days as miserable as she could.
> 
> "You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me."


I wish he made it a lot longer than 55
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> My brother finally left his psycho b!tch wife at 50. he met a beautiful stunning lovely woman who loved him. he told me, You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me. he died from ALS at 55. He NEVER regretting leaving his wife even though that B!TCH did her level best to make his last days as miserable as she could.
> 
> "You can't believe how good it feels to be with someone who likes me."


My condolences Anon. People like your brother's EXW deserve a special place in hell to burn for all eternity.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

sorry tooo bout your brother anon...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Thank you. I believe she will get hers in due time. Oh the stories I could tell... She sent him emails, at the time he was unable to move and making arrangements to have a feeding tube installed, demanding he get his tools out of the garage. It was almost laughable. But what she was really doing was egging him into giving her the tools so she could sell them.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

sounds like my x-wife


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Sanity said:


> My condolences Anon. People like your brother's EXW deserve a special place in hell to burn for all eternity.


:iagree::lol: I give this a big AMEIN!


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

Haven't heard from my friend for a few days now. Once things calm down for him I'll send him a link to this. He's kinda in "tunnel vision" mode on this divorce and doesn't want any distractions. I invited him to go shoot some hoops the other day and he said he was busy looking for apartments and other financial matters.


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## rush (Mar 29, 2013)

After a talk with wife and she read the book his needs and her needs, we are good for now.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

:smthumbup:



edbopc said:


> After a talk with wife and she read the book his needs and her needs, we are good for now.


:smthumbup:

Happy for you Ed/mike!


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Thank you. I believe she will get hers in due time. Oh the stories I could tell... She sent him emails, at the time he was unable to move and making arrangements to have a feeding tube installed, demanding he get his tools out of the garage. It was almost laughable. But what she was really doing was egging him into giving her the tools so she could sell them.


ALS is such a horrifying disease. Your exSIL is living proof that evil exists in the world. 

I'm so sorry you lost your brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinema79 (Aug 30, 2013)

I would say that lack of sex was HUGE factor in my divorce. I was officially married for a little over 3 years and I think we had sex maybe 10-15 times while married. IT WAS AWFUL. No wonder I was so aggressive in the rec soccer league I was playing in!

It wasn't always this way. 

We dated 9 months prior to marriage and had sex almost everyday. Then, after we got engaged, my wife decided to instill this no sex prior to marriage to honor her religion. :scratchhead: So, yeah, it destroyed our chemistry. We did have sex on our wedding night and several times on our honeymoon, and then it went to crap soon after that. 

She got fat, got depressed. 

I tried to initiate sex and she'd just give a dirty look. Valentines Day? No Sex. Anniversary? No Sex. My Birthday? No Sex. New year's eve? No sex. We went to counseling. Nothing helped.

We divorce and she starts screwing this fat guy at her job - yeah, not a good feeling.

It's good thing I got laid several times this summer by a hotter woman, otherwise I'm pretty sure I would have thrown myself off a bridge.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow, Cinema79, that sounds like pure manipulation. She was willing to have sex to bait the hook, but getting engaged reeled you in so all of a sudden religious beliefs became important. You know, that right there should have been your warning siren. Unless she had some full body spiritual epiphany that affected every single area of her life, she was full of sh!t and daring you to challenge the sacredness of religion.

Ugh.

Thats okay, cause now she's the couple called Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dumb. And you are free to find a woman who is not manipulative. I still suggest you read No More Mr. Nice Guy just to ensure you don't fall into another trap.


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## Aldrin (Aug 25, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I also asked him how long its been this bad because it wasn't very apparent that he was unhappy and he hid it well. I asked him how long has he been in a "sexless marriage" and he said that as soon as the ring went on the finger sex was pretty much reserved for when he spent money on expensive dinners, major holidays, birthdays and when the planets would line up. Everything in between was sexless.
> 
> His wife is quite attractive (I didn't say that to him) and from my own experience it must be torture to desire your hot wife and she blatantly denies you time and time again.


Sorry to quote an ancient piece of this thread, it's just such a gem. The above situation is exactly my marriage. It's hell.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Sanity said:


> As I mentioned in my previous post, a man that rejects his wifes desire for sex is just failing as a husband.


And the reverse is true as well NO ?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Not having read every post here, it seems to me that more often than not, lack of sex, intimacy and/or affection is simply a symptom of deeper issues. Sometimes those issues are with one or both of the partners or how they interrelate to each other. There is no question that sometimes the answer truly is sexual incompatibility but my guess is that what we like to call sexual incompatibility is frequently just a convenient label that may accurately reflect the current state of your marriage but isn't the real problem.
> 
> It is difficult to say if OPs friend "manned up". If there was an opportunity to dig deeper and try to identify the underlying reasons for the lack of sex in their marriage and did not do so then no, I would say he didn't "man" up. If he had exhausted all potential causes then I would say yes ... at the end of the day the marriage is sexless and with little hope of resolving it, he "manned up" and took control of his happiness.


I am overwhelmingly in agreement here

I lost that connection with my wife for years and worked all aspects of our relationship to get it back.

And it all worked out The sex is better and more frequent and she iniatiates often

Although the failures of our marriage were mostly of my doing, If my wife had not responded as she did I think I would have left


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> lots of men empathizing with each other, but not a lot of ladies...
> 
> As one of the ladies this thread was directed to, I'll tell it from the LD wife's perspective. Granted, our early years of sexlessness was further complicated by a history of childhood sexual molestation but the dynamics of what you men are describing remain the same.
> 
> ...


Thanks Anon That sums it up for those's of us that did not get it

I finally did and if you posted that years ago I would have gotten it alot sooner You know my story


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You touch on a common emotional need for women, that their husband be able to care for them, financially support them. The basic need is what must be addressed, but when it is taken to extremes, then it's time for straight talk.
> 
> My oldest daughter is 26. She went to high school in a very affluent school with girls who I called little princesses in training. I pity their future husbands for having to be the adult who teaches them that every precious little thing they want, they don't automatically get, nor deserve, so wipe that pout off your face and grow up! We made our daughters get a job at 15, pay for their cars, pay for their gas and they were financially cut off at 23. My middle daughter is 23 and has several friends living in lovely condo purchased by Daddy, who also takes care of her car and cell phone...
> 
> If you want a grown up wife, don't marry a Princess! If you do marry a Princess...then you get what you settle for.


OH Sh!t my future son in law already gives me sh!t for this:scratchhead:


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

just got it 55 said:


> OH Sh!t my future son in law already gives me sh!t for this:scratchhead:


Well then I guess someone's gonna hafta have a talk with her and let her know not to withhold sex when she can't get whatever new bangle she wants. You up for that 55?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Well then I guess someone's gonna hafta have a talk with her and let her know not to withhold sex when she can't get whatever new bangle she wants. You up for that 55?


I guess I'll let my wife handle that Call me chicken
I could never say no to my girls WTF did I do ?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Oh Sheeshe, always ready to beat yourself up.

Put the bat down and step away....

Leave it up to your wife, but push your wife to have the talk. better your daughter learn from her family than from here in 15 years...right?


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Oh Sheeshe, always ready to beat yourself up.
> 
> Put the bat down and step away....
> 
> Leave it up to your wife, but push your wife to have the talk. better your daughter learn from her family than from here in 15 years...right?


Yes Dear


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

just got it 55 said:


> And the reverse is true as well NO ?


I would say yes but I was speaking strictly from a *healthy* man's perspective. A man with even normal levels of testosterone should never deny his wife's advances. Heck I remember being woken up at 3 AM for some loving and the answer was always yes. 

It's just not normal for a man to say no to sex with the woman he loves again barring any illness or other crippling condition.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I would say yes but I was speaking strictly from a *healthy* man's perspective. A man with even normal levels of testosterone should never deny his wife's advances. Heck I remember being woken up at 3 AM for some loving and the answer was always yes.
> 
> It's just not normal for a man to say no to sex with the woman he loves again barring any illness or other crippling condition.


No argument here


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Thanks for the insight @Anon Pink. 

When I was going through the divorce process I read several books, the two I got the most from was Love Languages, and What Wives Need from Their husbands. 

Look back at my brief marriage, I see all the ways I failed and I am sad. 

That being said, most of what you "secretly" asked from your husband I attempted to do. Admittedly blindly, took it way to personal when it failed. 

When you ask your wife, "What can I do to help this." You repeatedly accomplish the task, and it barely if at all get's better. It builds a lot of resentment. 

Ironically, the best sex we had in 2 years resulted I think in part because she would see me getting hit on a lot, and that in her crazy mind made me appear more attractive. 

I say this because she claimed never to be a jealous person, yet kicked me once for "accepting getting hit on," and then another time accused me of an emotional affair after one girl told me how a relationship was going. 

This was after going through a period of time in our marriage where she openly said she loved someone else. 

I couldn't stand that hypocrisy, so my answer was to stop going out in that circle. Soon after she wanted no sex at all. I went back to the endless pursuit of helping her be "happy" so we could find time for intimacy. Literally a few months later, we started the divorce.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hope4family, I'm very glad you found some insight through my rantings, though it seems our situations were a bit different. However, what does appear to be similar is that like me at the time, your wife was unable to articulate exactly what she needed and wanted from you. So you jumped through hoops trying to make her happy and when that didn't happen resentments entered. I always assumed my husband threw up his hands and simply didn't try because it was hopeless, he married a demanding crazy ass b!tch so why bother trying. 

He knows how ineffectively he "supported me" during those years and jokes about going to wash the cars on chore day. The kind of husband he is today, in terms of day to day interaction and household support is vastly different than he was back then.

Sorry to toot my own horn here but I think the only reason he's been able to step up and become more involved is because I made the change first. I got a sex drive and the man never goes without. When a man gets laid regularly, has confidence that his advances will always be successful, it sure helps him become more attuned and more easily adaptable.

So what comes first...chicken or egg? Be more in tuned with your wife's emotional needs and get laid more often, or get laid more often so you'll be emotionally available to be more in tuned with your wife's needs? 

I suggest husbands try it one way for several months, then the other way for several months.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

My marriage was going no place fast and in the tank. Thought sure she would leave when the children were out of school.

I had to be the one to step up .She would not or could not.She may have stayed like that until death do us part.

Don't get me wrong she never turned me down, but things were just of I carried guilt(such a wasted emotion)preventing me from moving forward.

But eventually I did I had to make the move. Anon you are correct. With the intimacy back in our lives, I am more in tune with her needs all around


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> . When a man gets laid regularly, has confidence that his advances will always be successful, it sure helps him become more attuned and more easily adaptable.


QFT.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> QFT.


QFT?

Quit Fvcking Talking?


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Quoted for truth. = QFT.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

See? I naturally go to the "I did something wrong" idea...


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

I'm much better equipped to handle it now then I was then. 

To be honest, it was just a bad marriage period. My feelings were genuine, my desire to be a good husband was genuine. But, it's all in the past and I enjoy my current life.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> See? I naturally go to the "I did something wrong" idea...


No you were right. 

Lol. Kidding.


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## P51Geo1980 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sanity said:


> I ask because a friend of mine who I thought was in a happy marriage sat his wife down and told her that she was not meeting his sexual needs. She balked and called him a "sex addict" and he stood up and told her "i'm done". I thought he was full of crap but he spoke to a lawyer and got papers drawn up. She found out and apologized and tried to have sex to which he told her "too late, i'm done." Did he man up? Ladies?


I think he did what was right by him. I'm in the same boat - knew it was over when I started fantasizing about my wife instead of actually having sex with her. Over the last couple months I have completely checked out of the marriage and she doesn't seem to care on bit...or she does and isn't showing it. At the moment I'm not in a financial situation to be able to divorce her - I'm a student and work 20 hours a week, she's a teacher and works about 25 hours a week. As soon as I find a job after graduating I'll be serving her with divorce papers. And the main issue in our marriage is the lack of sex and all the resentment and anger that comes with it.


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## Oldrandwisr (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree with the OP, assuming he gave it a reasonable chance. After 12 years in a genuinely sexless marriage, I've resolved to divorce. 

Our marriage is a fraud. During the engagement period, H told me he wanted to save sex for marriage to keep it special. In retrospect, H had an agenda, primarily to have someone he could depend on. Intentionally or subconsciously, I don't know. Yeah, I was a codependent. Emphasis on "was".

The first couple of years into the marriage I made all the moves, only to be rejected. Read any LD thread here and pick an excuse. He used them all. I tried every tactic, gave up and accepted it, doing nothing as a last resort. Wish I knew about TAM back then.

Over the years, I intiated discussions for ideas on other types of intimacy that we could be content with. No desire on his part. Quite rapidly, even the affectionate kissing, hugging, and "I Love You" dwindled. I assume to build a wall so I would give up. He won't say if he feels guilt or dissapointment. I've been open with how it makes me feel. He would never provide me with an explanation. 

For the first six or seven years, I completely blamed myself, thinking if I could change something about me, things would turn around. I consider myself average sex drive and never had sex issues in prior relationships. Until a couple of years ago, I thought no other marriage was like this, feeling like a castaway. Sadly, it's a huge club we belong to. 

We've slept in separate rooms the last few years which helps my frustration. It is sheer torment to live with constant rejection and destruction of self esteem. 

I've come out stronger in so many ways, but still worry if there will be residual damage blindsiding me in the future. I'm logical minded and don't feel any different, but that's one of my biggest fears right now.

It helps to now know I'm not alone.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

Craig49 said:


> This is a great thread, just finished reading the whole thing.
> Some things are just so familiar that it is like I was writing some of the comments.
> Been married 24 years, sexless for the past 3 1/2 years. No interest on either part to even go there. Communication sucks, thats the biggest issue from what I have learned over the past several months.
> My wifes infidelity of 12 years ago has never been addressed and am in the process of doing this. She says she is sorry but it does not sound sincere. Is she sorry really or just worried about a meal ticket. I did mention that I was not happy with our relationship and am looking at getting out. Her first comment was that she did not want to live in a cardboard box. I would have thought and I love you would have been an appropriate answer. I am not the type to leave her high and dry, I would have thought she knew me better than that.
> ...


If this were me, id tell her she had better get her ass in school and learn something to make a living as I am all but done with her...then I would grow a goate...and then do a complete 180...

start wearing t-shirts that say "the free ride is over" or "meal ticket go bye-bye"..


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## aeasty (Jun 5, 2013)

I left my wife because there was no sex and she was lazy and is still! to any parent who is there for the kids you aren't doing them any favours apart from showing them what a dysfunctional relationship looks like. I was working 70 hours a week in a high stress level environment plus doing all the house work for someone who wouldn't get off their ass to put a dish in the sink 3 seconds away so she would just leave it on the couch or on the floor I always made sure I keep myself in shape but it didn't do anything for her all she wanted to do was sit/lay down and watch tv or be on Facebook and other social media now fast foreword almost 6 months since I ended it I have cut my work back down to 40 hrs a week because I don't mind coming home my home is always clean because I clean up after myself and I also have primary custody of our son, she signed the papers for the custody in less then a week of having him full time on her own. Life isn't that bad after you divorce you would be surprised how quickly you adjust and how much time you have to actually enjoy life and all it has to offer!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

AnonPink said:


> When a man gets laid regularly, has confidence that his advances will always be successful, it sure helps him become more attuned and more easily adaptable.


So simple but true. This is a successful man.


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## moco82 (Jul 16, 2012)

aeasty said:


> fast foreword almost 6 months since I ended it I have cut my work back down to 40 hrs a week because I don't mind coming home my home is always clean because I clean up after myself and I also have primary custody of our son, she signed the papers for the custody in less then a week of having him full time on her own. Life isn't that bad after you divorce you would be surprised how quickly you adjust and how much time you have to actually enjoy life and all it has to offer!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would it have been more difficult to leave if she were a great mom and it wouldn't have been reasonable to fight for primary custody? What would you recommend to dads in this situation?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

"Originally Posted by Anon Pink

*When a man gets laid regularly, has confidence that his advances will always be successful, it sure helps him become more attuned and more easily adaptable."*

So true:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

aeasty said:


> I left my wife because there was no sex and she was lazy and is still!


Either is a deal breaker. It greatly improves your quality of life to upgrade. And it like trading trucks. With a little shopping around and using common sense you will be riding in a better model.
But I will have to say my sex life greatly improved when me and my first ex wife got separate beds. Her's was on the east side of town and mine was on the north side.


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> "Originally Posted by Anon Pink
> 
> *When a man gets laid regularly, has confidence that his advances will always be successful, it sure helps him become more attuned and more easily adaptable."*
> 
> So true:smthumbup::smthumbup:


I remember a two year stretch where I rarely got turned down and my SO was after me so much her "mind was in the gutter" (her words). She couldn't help but want sex, think about sex, crave me badly. She was nearly climbing the walls.

I was on such a roll in life then. I could do no wrong. I had my best years at work. I felt like each day had 40 hours and I was focused and strong for all 40 of those hours.

I wish I could get even a quarter of that back.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

kingsfan said:


> I remember a two year stretch where I rarely got turned down and my SO was after me so much her "mind was in the gutter" (her words). She couldn't help but want sex, think about sex, crave me badly. She was nearly climbing the walls.
> 
> I was on such a roll in life then. I could do no wrong. I had my best years at work. I felt like each day had 40 hours and I was focused and strong for all 40 of those hours.
> 
> I wish I could get even a quarter of that back.


I had the same thing and it lasted for 17 years. The sex and being able to obtain the level of intimacy I desire almost when I want it, really helped my mind - it truly is an advantage.


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