# Help with midlife crisis spouse



## Propwash72

First time on this forum. I know that the marital problem I’m going to describe isn’t uncommon, but it has a couple of aspects that I haven’t heard addressed elsewhere. I’d like to hear some perspectives on the situation.

Wife and I have been together 21 years, married 19. Two girls, ages 15 and 10. A few weeks ago, she confessed to me that she had developed feelings for someone she knows through her work. She works at a hotel that caters to a lot of business travelers. They get a lot of regulars, and she gets to be friends with some of them, gets to know about their families, etc. Nothing unusual there. Wes (I have other unprintable names for him) has been coming in for about a year, and he’s been nothing other than a regular guest that she enjoys talking to, but she started developing feelings for him. She is sure (and I tend to agree) that the attraction is mutual. This man is also married, with two boys, but says that his marriage has been unhappy. He knows that we are going through a rocky time but doesn’t know the details.

I know that they haven’t been physical. He only comes in for a couple of days every few weeks, and during those times she hasn’t been out of my sight other than for work, so I know that any physical contact is extremely unlikely. He lives over 800 miles away. Their communication has been sometimes chatting in the lobby and mostly via text. The text conversations have often been flirty, with him complimenting her outfits (she is very beautiful IMHO) , both saying things like "I miss you”, "been thinking about you", etc. Inappropriate for married people to be doing, but not quite to the level of “sexting”. There were a couple of times that he made what I consider to be sexual innuendo, i.e. saying he needed a snuggle buddy and offering her a backrub when she mentioned wrenching a muscle at the gym. To her credit she recognized those and didn’t respond, steering the conversation back to more mundane things. Other conversations have been very mundane; if they had been with anyone else I wouldn’t have cared. Up until now, jealousy and insecurity with her has not been on my list of personal flaws.

I’ve been focused on this guy as an immediate threat, but I know that he didn’t cause our root problems, which have been going back to the beginning of our marriage. I’m fully aware that I helped drive the car towards the cliff. We have been talking a lot and identified some core issues. It’s these festering issues, combined with the fact that two people busy with life have let their marriage go on autopilot for a few years, that allowed the intimacy to die in our relationship. She was emotionally vulnerable, even more than she herself realized, and he just showed up at the right time.

Here’s what I find unusual about this and I haven’t heard it addressed anywhere else. She’s been anything but secretive. She has been extremely up front and honest about her feelings towards him and her feelings towards me. She shows me their text conversations, and we’ve had whole discussions trying to analyze what this guy really wants. Does he want a legitimate relationship, an affair, or does he just want a cute female friend to talk to? I know it’s entirely possible that she’s editing what she shows, me, but knowing her personality and knowing that she shows and tells me things that are pretty painful, makes me think that’s unlikely. It’s almost as if I’m married to a pathological truth-teller.

The good: We get along beautifully for the most part. She and I spend a lot of time together and enjoy each other’s company. We’re still affectionate. We’ve identified the core issues in our marriage that led us to where we are. In the course of talking, she has told me that a couple of the issues we had identified have not ended up being quite the stumbling blocks she originally thought. She called me up the other day and apologized for something she did to me early in our marriage that put a wedge between us. She acknowledges that we are closer now than we were a couple of months ago. 

We made love the other night for the first time since she dropped the bomb. The sex didn’t fix our problems, but she admits that it demolished one of her original claims. When she first dropped the bomb and said that she was considering divorce, she said that she had lost her sexual attraction for me and wasn’t sure she could get it back. The other night proved her wrong at least on that count. Her terminology has changed somewhat too. She at point told me she was in love with the other guy. She’s backed off that, and now says that he has some strange hold over her that she doesn’t understand.

The bad: despite the fact that she has regained her sexual attraction for me, and recognizes that we are the closest we have been in years, she is still preoccupied with Wes. She says that she is confused and needs to figure him out. Her feelings for him are intense enough that she openly wonders if he’s the man she’s meant to be with, despite the fact that he’s married, and to be with him she would have to pack up her entire life and move 800 miles to a state she’s never even been to. She does say that she has definite boundaries; she refuses to be a mistress or a friend with benefits with a married man. She only wants a relationship with him if it’s open and legitimate, i.e. after she and he are both divorced from their current spouses. On the other hand, she says that it’s entirely possible that she doesn’t need to be with either one of us. She also holds out the possibility that she and I are meant to stay together. She freely admits that she’s pretty much a confused mess. 

She insists that she needs to meet with him face-to-face to clear the air and help her sort out her feelings. He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. I’ve agreed to this. I know conventional wisdom says that people in emotional entanglements should cut off all contact. Knowing her personality, for me to demand that would make her dig in and intensify her feelings for him. I made the judgment call to agree to give her space to communicate with him, subject to a few rules. She never initiates the conversation, and when they do text she lets me read them afterwards. He does not know that I’m aware of their relationship, although he will find that out when they meet. I’m not too worried about her cheating on me during their meeting; I suppose if she does cheat on me that evening then I’ll be pretty clear about what needs to happen next. Even if he confesses his love for her and promises to leave his wife, she’s going to demand a 6-month cooling off period to give her a chance to work on our relationship and see if he puts his money where his mouth is. She knows better than to make a life decision based on the promises of a married man.

I’ve been applying a modified 180 with her. I wasn’t sure that the whole thing was appropriate in this case because all things considered we’re getting along so well. I stopped the begging, pleading and reasoning with her since those don’t work. I’ve concentrated on improving myself, physically and emotionally. I concentrate on being a strong, positive, cheerful masculine presence in the house. I lost some weight during the shock and panic phase of this whole thing and I took advantage of it by hitting the gym again. I’m now seeing my abs for the first time in twenty years. I’ve gotten involved in a new church (that started before the bomb drop) and been working on my side business. I’m looking for a new job (career dissatisfaction was one of the things that caused my moodiness and irritability and caused her to pull away). I made it clear to her that while I am 100% committed to saving our marriage as long as she’s willing to try, that I do not “need” her. If she decides after all is said and done to walk away, I’ll take the new life she hands me and run with it. I am planning to take a long weekend next month to go off to Texas without her, just to get some time away, think, and reconnect with old friends. She’s completely on board with that. She has noticed and commented on my improvements in the last couple of months.

Thoughts? What does this whole situation sound like? Any suggestions on how I can handle this whole mess? Is the 180 appropriate or should I try something else? I’m Mr Patience and I’m ready for the long haul, but feedback is appreciated.


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## tom67

My opinion...
You find a way to contact his wife asap.
If it was the other way around you would want to know.


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## bandit.45

You talk a good game. But your behavior?

Weak....in every respect.

Your wife is playing you like a fiddle. Why have you so little respect for yourself that you would allow this to go on? Do you not understand that the reason she plays you against this other man is for her own ego boost? She's getting off having two men compete for her. What are you getting out of this fvckrd up deal? Heartache. Humiliation. Pain. 

Refuse to be a member of her harem. Show her you respect yourself. Tell her you have changed your mind and you are initiating divorce proceedings as soon as possible. Cut your own path. Don't follow hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BWBill

_She insists that she needs to meet with him face-to-face to clear the air and help her sort out her feelings. He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. I’ve agreed to this. _

You're letting your wife go on dates? What kind of marriage is that? 

Of course, it's an open marriage! It's not cheating anymore; you've agreed that she can pursue other relationships.


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## turnera

Hire a PI to find his wife's contact information. Best money you'll ever spend. Call her and tell her what her husband is doing. THEN tell your wife that you did it.

And then tell her that you will be attending this 'dinner' with her and her 'friend.' And if she's not ok with that, you'll accept her decision to divorce.

She WANTS you to be strong, please believe this. Even if she doesn't know that, herself.


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## Forest

BWBill said:


> _She insists that she needs to meet with him face-to-face to clear the air and help her sort out her feelings. He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. I’ve agreed to this. _
> 
> You're letting your wife go on dates? What kind of marriage is that?
> 
> Of course, it's an open marriage! It's not cheating anymore; you've agreed that she can pursue other relationships.


Agree. You're letting her play the victim role to the hilt, actually reinforcing it.

She's your wife, not some client you're counseling.

If she's this lovestruck, works at a hotel and see him there, I would not believe they hadn't gotten physical. She's just too dramatic about the whole deal, too suspicious.

Also, she's probably actually resents you for not demanding she end things, and coming after her more forcefully. Have to get one of the females to add thoughts on that.

If something seems logical to you, its probably the opposite of what she really wants you to do.:scratchhead:


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## bfree

Are you kidding me? She confesses feelings for another man and you help her to analyze his feelings and intentions? Why don't you help him analyze your fury? You're letting her go on a date with him? Friend, you've just made yourself her bff and girlfriend. You've just completely taken yourself out of the role as her husband. Maybe she's attracted to him because he has a pulse.


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## ReidWright

"I know that they haven’t been physical. He only comes in for a couple of days every few weeks, and during those times she hasn’t been out of my sight other than for work..."

...at a HOTEL


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## ButtPunch

I agree with everyone else. You are handling this all wrong. Glad you came to TAM for help. Now....before you make any other decisions say to yourself "What would a caveman do?" If a caveman wouldn't do it then you don't do it.


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## honcho

As much as you don’t want to hear it you are getting played by her now. You question why she has been so “honest” with you. She is controlling all the info that you have seen and your only response really has been to change to what she wants.

What incentive does she have to change her behavior right now? She has two men chasing her giving her an ego boost, she knows you aren’t going anywhere because you are letting fantasyland continue. You cant compete with fantasyland man. He is perfect in her eyes and the longer she is in contact with him the more she will want him. 

Fantasyland is such a controlled environment, they never have problems…the world is always great. She will just find more things wrong with you as this continues. She doesn’t want this to end, you must make her end it. Either she commits to trying to work on the marriage or not. It is that simple. You are fighting a losing battle the longer the OM is still in the picture.
She is encouraging to you to away for the long weekend, remember to check her phone logs, text message activity when you get home. She is viewing you being gone as an entire weekend of freedom to talk to him. She claims to be a confused mess, you are letting be a confused mess. How hard of a decision is this really? 

Is she really silly enough to believe the OM is going to dump his wife and he is her “soulmate”? If she is willing to throw away her current life and family this easily let her go and file for divorce. You cant allow yourself to be plan B. You have.


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## Buddy400

Propwash72 said:


> First time on this forum. I know that the marital problem I’m going to describe isn’t uncommon, but it has a couple of aspects that I haven’t heard addressed elsewhere. I’d like to hear some perspectives on the situation.


Well.... that didn't go well.

I'm not an embittered, betrayed spouse. I can kind of see where you're coming from (I think a lot like you do). You're thinking to yourself "I want her to freely chose me, if she doesn't I'm not interested". You want her to figure out for herself what she wants.....

The problem is, she doesn't know what she wants. You have to chose for her. She needs you to chose for her. I know that you'd like to think that she's got more free will than that, but..... she doesn't.

Tell her you changed your mind. She needs to send the OM a NC letter. He has to stay at another hotel next time. If she sees him or communicates with him again, you'll file for divorce. 
I know this isn't the way you want to behave, but it's the only option. Time to man up. I know it's a pain in the ass sometimes, but it has to be done.


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## X-B

Your wife is NOT having a mid life crises. She has found someone she likes better than you at this moment. I was in your shoes and it sucks. Just keep reading and you will get some good advise. I am sorry you are here in this. ^&^^$%#^%$#^% club


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## Satya

She's telling you everything because (subconsciously or other) she wants to see if you'll really do something about it. Since you're letting her go out with this guy for drinks (?!) she has her answer.


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## HarryDoyle

Maybe, just maybe, if you're real nice she'll let you be best man at her wedding.:scratchhead:

She has no respect for you or your girls. Soul mates are a myth, like unicorns. Soul mates are created, not found.


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## turnera

X-Betaman said:


> Your wife is NOT having a mid life crises. She has found someone *STRONG* she likes better than you at this moment.


If you want to keep your wife, you have to appear stronger. It sucks, but it's true. It's human nature.


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## RV9

ReidWright said:


> "I know that they haven’t been physical. He only comes in for a couple of days every few weeks, and during those times she hasn’t been out of my sight other than for work..."
> 
> ...at a HOTEL


:iagree:

No one thinks about making a switch without sampling the goods.


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## LongWalk

Your wife's honest is a so-called shyte test. You are failing the test. Stop being her best female friend. If she is going on this date to discuss whether or not Wes has the gonads to divorce his wife for a woman he hasn't even had sex with, you have to make certain that she knows you are not into the cuckold fantasy scene.

Before she goes tell her that if she does go, you'll divorce her. A man with balls has a chance. If you agree to let her explore her attraction, your sex ranking will plummet. Instead of Wes, someone else will come along.


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## badmemory

Propwash72 said:


> I’ve been focused on this guy as an immediate threat, but I know that he didn’t cause our *root problems,* which have been going back to the beginning of our marriage. I’m fully aware that I helped drive the car towards the cliff. We have been talking a lot and *identified some core issues.*


*Root problem?* - She wants to explore another relationship while married to you. That's called cheating.

*Core issue?* - You are willingly facilitating her. 

A very weak and beta reaction on your part. A reaction that decreases her attraction for you all the more. How would a strong and decisive husband handle this?

You tell her she can chose; him or a 100% commitment to the man she made wedding vows with. If she chooses the latter, she stops contact with him immediately, sends him a no contact letter, and quits her job to avoid that contact. Then you expose him to his wife - with her assistance.

If she refuses any of the above, you implement the 180, talk to an attorney and start the divorce process.

Wake up friend.


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## the guy

Stop sharing your wife!


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## thummper

You're permitting your wife to go on a date with another man?!!!! I wouldn't put up with that nonsense for a nanosecond. So she gets upset! So what? She's only looking for an excuse to leave you for him. You might as well give up now, brother. She's on her way out, not thinking how this will impact the lives of her family members. I'm sooo sorry for you.


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## italianjob

How does the situation sound like?
It sounds like you're ready to learn how to be a cuckhold...

You KNOW it hasn't gone physical? She works at an hotel, and sees the man there, she's had plenty of chances to get physical with him, unless you work in the same hotel and can keep an eye on her even when she's at work...

Do you really think she would be talking about living with the guy if they had just talked? Either you are very naive or she is really really far out...


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## bfree

Make no mistake, they already had sex. Now she's exploring her options at cake eating. Why is she being semi honest? She's sure you'll make a wonderful dutiful cuckold. Is she right?


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## Propwash72

Yeah, these answers aren't what I expected, but that's why I posted. I'm looking forward to hearing from some women too.


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## Forest

Propwash72 said:


> Yeah, these answers aren't what I expected, but that's why I posted. I'm looking forward to hearing from some women too.


Think of that Seinfeld episode when George does the exact opposite of what he normally would. That's when he gets a reaction from the women.

I've read it here a thousand times, but here's 1001:
You can't "nice" her back.


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## mablenc

Female here, I know you want to be level headed with her. But, the more you give in the more she's going to take. Set yourself appart from the situation, you are her second choice. She's seeing how far he is willing to go, if she likes the goods she leaves with him. If he is not willing to commit to her, she had her fun and she has a nice guy waiting at home.

My cousin did this, she blamed it on getting married too young, she was not sure how she felt. Her husband did what you are doing, guess what? She's on boyfriend number 3, she currently dumped the kids including a 7 year old to live with this guy out of state. 

Her husband is still waiting for her to come back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soccermom2three

Satya said:


> She's telling you everything because (subconsciously or other) she wants to see if you'll really do something about it. Since you're letting her go out with this guy for drinks (?!) she has her answer.


This is what I think my SIL wanted. If my BIL had been strong, I bet they would still be together but he has been so weak trying to nice her back. I think she lost respect for him. It's like a big, fat **** test and he failed miserably. 

OP, your story is eerily similar to my BIL and SIL and she moved out just before Christmas last year.


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## Propwash72

Great replies so far. A reality sandwich is what I need right now. I know that my response has been pretty f***ed up. My thought right now is that if she wants to continue "exploring" this guy, she does it alone. I'll give her the choice of either ending all contact with him or I go find an apartment.


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## italianjob

Propwash72 said:


> Great replies so far. A reality sandwich is what I need right now. I know that my response has been pretty f***ed up. My thought right now is that if she wants to continue "exploring" this guy, she does it alone. I'll give her the choice of either ending all contact with him or I go find an apartment.


uhm, well, SHE's leaving (or thinking of leaving) the marriage, SHE finds an apartment...

You need to change your mindset...


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## Propwash72

Someone mentioned making me her "girlfriend". Ironically enough, she's stopped talking to her best friend of 38 years because she's not "supportive" enough. My guess is that her friend wouldnt cheerlead her fantasy.


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## rustytheboyrobot

Propwash72 said:


> Yeah, these answers aren't what I expected, but that's why I posted. I'm looking forward to hearing from some women too.


Several women have posted here and given you the exact same advice as the men.

Do you want to save your marriage? Be a man. Accept that she's has physical and sexual contact with him and lay down the line. Tell her that you are not going to be anyone's second choice. Go full 180 right then. You stop talking to her for a few days. You be you and do new things. Start making weird changes in your life and don't tell her about them.

Expose this affair to the other man's wife. Don't talk about doing this. This is none of your wife's business. This is you protecting an innocent from some of the worst harm that could ever befall her.

Then after a few days you sit down with her and you show her divorce papers and you tell her you either are my wife or you are not my wife. You decide right now. If you are my wife then we write a letter together to your work letting them know that this married man has been making sexual advances towards your wife and he needs to stay somewhere else. Together you write him a NO CONTACT text. Send it and erase his number.

From this point on you investigate everything she does. You check the phone bill for texts and phone calls. You check her phone and read her texts. And you do not tell her about this.

Or sit back and watch your family be destroyed.


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## rustytheboyrobot

If you really want to drive her crazy go stop at a department store and buy yourself new fancy underwear. Don't mention it and blow her off if she asks. While you're there spray a spritz of women's perfume on your neck and head straight home. Also refuse to talk to her about this.


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## NumNum

Hello. I understand all the responses telling you need to man up and start making demands, but I'm not sure one size fits all in every infidelity case. You sound like a very decent man, you've had a long and happy marriage, and actually, the communication between you sounds excellent.
I think it may be worth exploring, together, what this stranger is offering her that she feels she's not getting at home. 
You can't just start throwing ultimatums at her, or telling her you're furious when you aren't (well, you certainly don't sound it).
Seeing as you can talk so easily with each other, and she's up for being very honest with you, ask her to really think about what it is the other chap looks like he has that you don't. 
It seems to me, and I don't profess to know anything about you both, that your marriage is lovely and safe and warm. And predictable. 
Maybe the other chap is just exciting, and she misses feeling desirable and she misses feeling excited about the what ifs.
I wouldn't advise getting really angry and telling her to make a decision.
However, saying it's fine for her to meet and chat with him is surely pushing some uncomfortable boundaries for you? Are you really ok about it? If you aren't, then you must speak up and say so. 
Boundaries. They're very important. She's taking the piss there.


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## rustytheboyrobot

You spin the hamster before you give an ultimatum. Brand new poster you are advising OP to just go along and see what his wife likes about ****ing another man?

You have any experience to back up your horrible advice?


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## NumNum

I also wouldn't advocate playing games like pretending to be having an affair, or spraying perfume about the place. She'll see through it. It's passive aggressive, immature and pointless. You can't be indignant if you also behaving unreasonably. Always act with respect. Your dignity is very important, and drama is just going to inflame the situation. 
Maybe you're too cool. But if you've been married for so long, your coolness and your ability to be considerate and loving, and communicative has worked well for you. 
But, like I said, you have a right to be angry and you certainly have a right to demand better treatment now.


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## NumNum

I'm a woman, robot. I am 45 years old, and I've been with my partner for 15 years. This is an advice forum. The poster can read and consider any advice he wishes.


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## ConanHub

I have a really hard time believing you are real.....

but if you are, reach down between your legs and feel for your testicles. If they are still there, remember how to use them!!!

If they are gone, that explains everything.


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## NumNum

rustytheboyrobot said:


> Brand new poster you are advising OP to just go along and see what his wife likes about ****ing another man?


Hardly. What if spraying perfume and pretending to be interested in another woman fails? What do you suggest next? 
It's not real and it's not particularly constructive is it? What do you think it will achieve, in all honesty?


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## honcho

Propwash72 said:


> Great replies so far. A reality sandwich is what I need right now. I know that my response has been pretty f***ed up. My thought right now is that if she wants to continue "exploring" this guy, she does it alone. I'll give her the choice of either ending all contact with him or I go find an apartment.


Why would you move out? You didn't ask for this, she can become less "confused" sitting in a place by herself without your or the kids.

Her cheating is not your fault. She must own that decision completely. Don't punish yourself further by letting her have the comforts of home.


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## NumNum

I am sorry for just appearing on here before introducing myself though. I read the thread and felt an urge to help. I have seen plenty of marriages go to pieces. Infidelity is a huge deal. It rarely happens out of nowhere though, and certainly not after so many years together.
There will be reasons. The poster's wife will know what they are, maybe not consciously yet, but now's the time to get closer together, not further apart. Emotional withdrawal is not going to help, and neither will passive aggressive attempts for attention.


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## rustytheboyrobot

NumNum said:


> Hardly. What if spraying perfume and pretending to be interested in another woman fails? What do you suggest next?
> It's not real and it's not particularly constructive is it? What do you think it will achieve, in all honesty?


You don't pretend to be another woman. You just show up with that scent. If you'd prefer you can go to a strip club and get a lap dance. Using testers in a department store is just cheaper and quicker. Also I don't like strip clubs. No matter what happens doing things like this will introduce some mystery back into OP. You can't act rational when someone is in the fog. Her fantasy relationship with OM is a fantasy and her life with OP is reality. Reality is hard and dirty. Fantasy is anything and everything you've always wanted.

Your advice is terrible. Don't listen to it OP! Don't go along with letting your wife date other men! How is she ever going to respect you if you do that?


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## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> Hardly. What if spraying perfume and pretending to be interested in another woman fails? What do you suggest next?
> It's not real and it's not particularly constructive is it? What do you think it will achieve, in all honesty?


He had a serious question Num. You advocate him possibly letting another man fvck his wife. Should he hold her head on a pillow while she gets laid?

Back on point. I don't think you should give advice that you won't follow. So how did fvcking another man help your marriage?

Maybe you let your husband have sex with someone else? How did that strengthen your marriage?


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## rustytheboyrobot

NumNum said:


> I am sorry for just appearing on here before introducing myself though. I read the thread and felt an urge to help. I have seen plenty of marriages go to pieces. Infidelity is a huge deal. It rarely happens out of nowhere though, and certainly not after so many years together.
> There will be reasons. The poster's wife will know what they are, maybe not consciously yet, but now's the time to get closer together, not further apart. Emotional withdrawal is not going to help, and neither will passive aggressive attempts for attention.


The thing is that withdrawal and mystery actually do help. Going along with it is like setting yourself on fire. We try to save marriages here not encourage married people to help their spouses "figure out" what they "really need".


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## Sports Fan

The Beta is strong with this one. Sorry to say but there is plenty wrong with your situation.

Your wife has manipulated a situation where you have effectively given her the ok to meet up with him.

Her behavour is most unacceptable. What is she doing giving out her number to Customers from work. And throwing it in your face to boot.

This situation needs to be blown up quickly. Tell his wife expose, and sit back and watch as he throws your wife under the bus to save his marriage.

How do you know they havent been physical? She works in a hotel he is a client there, she does have lunch or dinner breaks. 20 minutes is all they need and considering he already has a room, i cant believe you wouldn't be concerned about this.

If you dont take decisive action now you will forever regret this as she will hook up with him, and possibly leave you.

As for the December meeting tell her thats not happening and you changed your mind. 

If your wife doesn't cease all contact with him, then she needs to be aware that her bags will packed and she can live at the Hotel where she works permenantly!


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## NumNum

I'm not advocating 'letting' his wife sleep with anyone else!
His wife gets to make her own decisions anyway. 
How do you suggest he stops it? By throwing his weight around, going to a strip club, making her jealous? After so many years together, after experiencing so much life together, you really think that she doesn't know her husband?
What the poster does have on his side is love, understanding, compassion, desire, honesty and dependability. A stranger can only offer potential. His wife will be attracted to the most-desirable picture here. If he bursts the bubble of the illusion of the attractive stranger, he may well reach his wife.


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## Ikaika

Propwash72 said:


> Great replies so far. A reality sandwich is what I need right now. I know that my response has been pretty f***ed up. My thought right now is that if she wants to continue "exploring" this guy, she does it alone. I'll give her the choice of either ending all contact with him or I go find an apartment.



Better yet, tell she can meet with the guy alone. Show her to the door with a packed bag, let her know all future communication can be done through your attorney. 

If she takes you up on your offer continue to be composed and cordial, but all emotional and physical contact is over between the two of you. This will be an experiment gone bad on her part, but since you have children, it needs to be all business from that point on. 

Sometimes ultimatums are necessary, but it is your life not mine or anyone else. Simply my opinion.


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## NumNum

rustytheboyrobot said:


> The thing is that withdrawal and mystery actually do help. Going along with it is like setting yourself on fire. We try to save marriages here not encourage married people to help their spouses "figure out" what they "really need".


How can emotional withdrawal help exactly? And how much mystery is really possible after so many years of marriage? 
They're not teenagers who've been dating for a few months.
Also, does the poor man have to keep upping the mystery every time his wife gets restless? How good will that feel for him do you think? How realistic is it?
Surely, his wife needs to realise what's at stake here. Maybe she's forgotten how wonderful her man is, how well he knows her, how really intimate their marriage is, and how loved she is. How bloody fortunate she is.
She needs to see that an unfaithful stranger at work is a terrible choice for a partner, and that she'd be throwing away something incredible by jeapordising an otherwise very happy marriage. 
If her now husband starts going to strip clubs and acting like a twat, she's going to think the stranger is more attractive.


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## bfree

NumNum said:


> How can emotional withdrawal help exactly? And how much mystery is really possible after so many years of marriage?
> They're not teenagers who've been dating for a few months.
> Also, does the poor man have to keep upping the mystery every time his wife gets restless? How good will that feel for him do you think? How realistic is it?
> Surely, his wife needs to realise what's at stake here. Maybe she's forgotten how wonderful her man is, how well he knows her, how really intimate their marriage is, and how loved she is. How bloody fortunate she is.
> She needs to see that an unfaithful stranger at work is a terrible choice for a partner, and that she'd be throwing away something incredible by jeapordising an otherwise very happy marriage.
> If her now husband starts going to strip clubs and acting like a twat, she's going to think the stranger is more attractive.


You're a woman right? Women hate boredom. I've been happily married for almost 30 years. Yes, I keep upping the mystery as you so call it. I make sure that periodically I change things up. I upset the balance if you will. I make sure I am never too predictable. I can give you specific examples if you'd like but suffice it to say that my wife is VERRRRY happy.


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## rustytheboyrobot

NumNum said:


> Also, does the poor man have to keep upping the mystery every time his wife gets restless?


Yes. Until he gets sick of his wife dating other men and just leaves her. Since they have been married for so long and this hasn't happened very often, they have children together, and she had the decency to communicate about it with him it sounds worth saving.

I'd just file for divorce and see if she starts doing the heavy lifting to repair the relationship but I'm trying to give OP real options to save his marriage. Not telling him to be her rock while she goes out and sleeps with other men. She is not behaving like a spouse should. This is the reality we are confronted with here.

What is your advice, exactly? Support her to do whatever she wants? So far what I'm seeing from you is exactly that. That he ignores his own soul, his marriage, his children, his family, and his sanity to support his WS doing whatever she wants to do.


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## NumNum

Yes, I'm a woman. No one likes boredom do they? 
I'm very happy that your marriage is good and your wife is verrrry happy. 
But what if his wife isn't so much bored as feeling taken for granted, or her needs aren't being met? What if she longs for more intimate conversation, more physical touch, to be asked how she is, to be noticed for who she is, to be taken out, or cooked for, or she misses dating, feeling apprecaited for her uniqueness? I understand what you're saying, but the poster's issue is specific to him and his wife. 
And my point is exactly that – he needs to explore why she is attracted to a stranger – not just react to it. The problem, the issue, that caused this sudden change in their otherwise happy marriage is there somewhere. 
His wife hasn't suddenly become a selfish person. She may be acting very selfishly, yes, but there will be a reason for it. She's looking for something. She is looking for something she thinks she can't have at home. 
I don't think it's about sex, it's something else. But the poster needs to ask his wife what it is. Or at least ask her to think about it.


----------



## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> I'm not advocating 'letting' his wife sleep with anyone else!
> His wife gets to make her own decisions anyway.
> How do you suggest he stops it? By throwing his weight around, going to a strip club, making her jealous? After so many years together, after experiencing so much life together, you really think that she doesn't know her husband?
> What the poster does have on his side is love, understanding, compassion, desire, honesty and dependability. A stranger can only offer potential. His wife will be attracted to the most-desirable picture here. If he bursts the bubble of the illusion of the attractive stranger, he may well reach his wife.


You have little to no understanding of infidelity. The stranger has some strange d!ck that will soon be in her. She is a cake eater. Look it up.

Again. Tell us your success story of allowing your husband to cheat or your husband allowing you, or maybe you could stfu?

I am dead serious. Start offering your own experience with the advice you have given or you will just be a joke to everyone on this board who has lived through the damage of infidelity.


----------



## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> Yes, I'm a woman. No one likes boredom do they?
> I'm very happy that your marriage is good and your wife is verrrry happy.
> But what if his wife isn't so much bored as feeling taken for granted, or her needs aren't being met? What if she longs for more intimate conversation, more physical touch, to be asked how she is, to be noticed for who she is, to be taken out, or cooked for, or she misses dating, feeling apprecaited for her uniqueness? I understand what you're saying, but the poster's issue is specific to him and his wife.
> And my point is exactly that – he needs to explore why she is attracted to a stranger – not just react to it. The problem, the issue, that caused this sudden change in their otherwise happy marriage is there somewhere.
> His wife hasn't suddenly become a selfish person. She may be acting very selfishly, yes, but there will be a reason for it. She's looking for something. She is looking for something she thinks she can't have at home.
> I don't think it's about sex, it's something else. But the poster needs to ask his wife what it is. Or at least ask her to think about it.


Your advice is good marriage advice and HORRIBLE infidelity advice. Again.... What is your experience with infidelity?


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## NumNum

A marriage is made up of two human beings. 
Sometimes, we act like a ****, and sometimes we are driven to do very stupid things because of all sorts of reasons. 
Infidelity isn't always about sex, it's about feeling desirable, having something we aren't used to, reliving some fantasy from the days before our life became so mundane, so full of responsibility and predictability. It may be an attempt to get a need met, to talk more, to have someone interested in you.
We get older, less attractive, fatter. 
Some of us become parents, and our lives are defined by the roles we adopt. 
It's more complex than just laying down the law and demanding things. For me, marriage is about being part of a team, having someone support me, know who I am, the messy me, the happy me, the miserable as **** me, everything that I am, even when I act like a horrible, coldhearted *****. And it means that I have to do the same. 
It's about sacrifice, about compromise, about true itimacy and about understanding. 
You can't just walk out with your pride whenever your life partner does something unreasonable. 
Marriage may push us to understand what is is to be human, what mistakes can teach us, what our boundaries really are.
But the deal was to do it together.
Yes, his wife is treading a very fine line and she's risking destroying something massive here. The poster knows this and that's why he asked for advice.


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## NumNum

Why are you so aggressive, Conan?


----------



## bfree

NumNum said:


> Yes, I'm a woman. No one likes boredom do they?
> I'm very happy that your marriage is good and your wife is verrrry happy.
> But what if his wife isn't so much bored as feeling taken for granted, or her needs aren't being met? What if she longs for more intimate conversation, more physical touch, to be asked how she is, to be noticed for who she is, to be taken out, or cooked for, or she misses dating, feeling apprecaited for her uniqueness? I understand what you're saying, but the poster's issue is specific to him and his wife.
> And my point is exactly that – he needs to explore why she is attracted to a stranger – not just react to it. The problem, the issue, that caused this sudden change in their otherwise happy marriage is there somewhere.
> His wife hasn't suddenly become a selfish person. She may be acting very selfishly, yes, but there will be a reason for it. She's looking for something. She is looking for something she thinks she can't have at home.
> I don't think it's about sex, it's something else. But the poster needs to ask his wife what it is. Or at least ask her to think about it.


But that's exactly my point. The OP is not going to get these answers so long as his wife is fixated on another man. What she has is exciting, new and NOT BORING. But it's a fantasy. As long as she is living the fantasy she is not going to hear one word he says. He needs to break the fantasy by standing up for himself as a spouse and a human being. Only then will he be able to discover what she feels she has been missing in their marriage. He may have made the mistake of being Mr. Reliable but she made the bigger mistake by pursuing another man.


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## 3putt

Again, NumNum, offer up your experience with infidelity. To anyone reading here that has been through betrayal it sure sounds like you have NO idea what you are talking about or dealing with.


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## turnera

Propwash72 said:


> Yeah, these answers aren't what I expected, but that's why I posted. I'm looking forward to hearing from some women too.


lol, I AM a woman. And I'm telling you that she lost 95% of her respect - AND DESIRE - for you when you agreed to let her see him again.

Think back to caveman days. It's in our DNA to want the stronger man.

Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP yet?


----------



## thummper

Propwash72 said:


> Someone mentioned making me her "girlfriend". Ironically enough, she's stopped talking to her best friend of 38 years because she's not "supportive" enough. * My guess is that her friend wouldnt cheerlead her fantasy*.


Like I said: She's already gone. End it on your terms.


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## turnera

italianjob said:


> uhm, well, SHE's leaving (or thinking of leaving) the marriage, SHE finds an apartment...
> 
> You need to change your mindset...


Yeah, no way YOU move out, unless you're going to a bigger better place.


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## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> Why are you so aggressive, Conan?


My nature. When I sense BS that can and does hurt people, I am on it hard. I have a lot of experience with infidelity. I have, literally, lost friends. Dead.

I do marriage counseling, pre-marital counseling and I officiate weddings. 

I had to study infidelity to help the far too many people that are affected by it.

Again. I think your advice is generally good marriage advice and horrible infidelity advice.

You need to put up or shut up.

Where is your proof, case studies or personal experience that backs up your approach to helping this man with his cheating wife?


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## turnera

Propwash72 said:


> Someone mentioned making me her "girlfriend". Ironically enough, she's stopped talking to her best friend of 38 years because she's not "supportive" enough. My guess is that her friend wouldnt cheerlead her fantasy.


Prop, this is exactly why if you want to stay married, and she refuses to stop seeing him, the NEXT step is to expose the affair to her parents, siblings, and best friends. You tell her you are NOT ok with this and she has a choice to make - him or you. When she says you can't do that (wait til you see the mad side of her when you stop being her girlfriend), you say fine - and go sit down and start making all those phone calls.


----------



## turnera

rustytheboyrobot said:


> If you really want to drive her crazy go stop at a department store and buy yourself new fancy underwear. Don't mention it and blow her off if she asks. While you're there spray a spritz of women's perfume on your neck and head straight home. Also refuse to talk to her about this.


I so agree with this. She doesn't see you as a man anymore. You're that ambiguous thing in her home who keeps her safe and does stuff for her. 

Seeing you able to be a MAN again who will attract women will really make a difference.


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## 3putt

turnera said:


> lol, I AM a woman. And I'm telling you that she lost 95% of her respect - AND DESIRE - for you when you agreed to let her see him again.
> 
> Think back to caveman days. It's in our DNA to want the stronger man.
> 
> Have you read NMMNG and MMSLP yet?


The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Get and read all of this. Seriously. Tonight.


----------



## turnera

NumNum said:


> Hardly. What if spraying perfume and pretending to be interested in another woman fails? What do you suggest next?
> It's not real and it's not particularly constructive is it? What do you think it will achieve, in all honesty?


Who said anything about pretending to interested in another woman? All he's doing is once again caring about his appearance, now that his wife has pointed out he's safe and benign. He can USE that perfume and newfound sexiness to sweep his wife off her feet again.


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## NoChoice

OP, look, you are taking the rational, logical approach with someone who is acting totally irrationally. She is confused?? Confused about being a mother and the effect this will have on her children? Confused about being in a family and the bomb she's about to drop on it? Confused about the vows she took, giving her solemn oath not to do what she is proposing doing? I see absolutely nothing here for her to be confused about.

She is being selfish, uncaring, inconsiderate, dishonorable and cheap and she doesn't seem at all confused about any of that. And she is proposing doing this with a man totally lacking in character who is doing the same thing to his wife that she is doing to you only his wife probably doesn't know about it (maybe they are soulmates). A situation I would remedy A.S.A.P. if I were you.

Then I would ask her what, exactly, she is confused about and I would explain to her how you can clear up her confusion for her by having your attorney relate your proposal. Look man, there is nothing for her to figure out here, she is a wife and a mother not some woman out to meet a guy for drinks at a hotel.

She doesn't need a meeting with this OM to clear up the fact that she *is* a wife, mother and already part of a family, surely you see that. So then what is the meeting really for? I would advise you not let it happen. I am all for advising doing what is best for the family to any on here that I respond to and if I thought that this would be good for your family I would wholeheartedly agree but this has no good ending if she meets this guy. Your choice of course but that's my 2 cents worth.


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## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> A marriage is made up of two human beings.
> Sometimes, we act like a ****, and sometimes we are driven to do very stupid things because of all sorts of reasons.
> Infidelity isn't always about sex, it's about feeling desirable, having something we aren't used to, reliving some fantasy from the days before our life became so mundane, so full of responsibility and predictability. It may be an attempt to get a need met, to talk more, to have someone interested in you.
> We get older, less attractive, fatter.
> Some of us become parents, and our lives are defined by the roles we adopt.
> It's more complex than just laying down the law and demanding things. For me, marriage is about being part of a team, having someone support me, know who I am, the messy me, the happy me, the miserable as **** me, everything that I am, even when I act like a horrible, coldhearted *****. And it means that I have to do the same.
> It's about sacrifice, about compromise, about true itimacy and about understanding.
> You can't just walk out with your pride whenever your life partner does something unreasonable.
> Marriage may push us to understand what is is to be human, what mistakes can teach us, what our boundaries really are.
> But the deal was to do it together.
> Yes, his wife is treading a very fine line and she's risking destroying something massive here. The poster knows this and that's why he asked for advice.


Marriage is also as simple as not having another mans d!ck in you.

You say it takes two and you are right. OPs wife is actively involved with another man. She has just shot her marriage in the heart. You don't talk about eating healthy and exercising when a homicidal b!tch just shot someone in the heart!

You get the damn gun out of her hand and subdue her so she can't inflict more harm. You then get the victim to the E.R. to see if they can be saved.

You are advocating letting the victim bleed out while you ask the cold hearted skank what led her to "such unfortunate life choices".


----------



## NumNum

And do you think that your experience of infidelity means you have the answers to everyone else's? Do you think that every marriage is the same? 
My experinece with infidelity started when I was 10. My mother left my dad, after 30 years of marriage, for an alcoholic.
My dad lost his mind, he was heartbroken and devastated. He threw her out and they never spoke again. It blew our entire family apart. They both still love each other (now in their 80s) and have never come to terms with it. My brother's 13 year marriage fell apart soon after when he left his wife for a colleague. 
I was in a relationship when I was a young adult for 4 years, when my boyfriend admitted to me that he had been using prostitues for most of our relationship. I left him after having a breakdown, and thinking I'd never get over it. I'm abbreviating a lot of this, you understand. 
I married after that, but my husband was very controlling, jealous and abusive. I had an affair. He found out, and we divorced. 
He has never remarried.
I have been with my current partner since. I have been in therapy for quite a few years, and I've spent many years coming to terms with how my life has panned out. I have had serious problems learning how to trust men, and how to behave in relationships. I am surrounded by people my age who are victims of infidelity, and I've watched in horror as people I admire and trust have cheated and lied through their teeth. 
Infidelity has defined my life in many ways.


----------



## turnera

NumNum said:


> Yes, I'm a woman. No one likes boredom do they?
> I'm very happy that your marriage is good and your wife is verrrry happy.
> But what if his wife isn't so much bored as feeling taken for granted, or her needs aren't being met? What if she longs for more intimate conversation, more physical touch, to be asked how she is, to be noticed for who she is, to be taken out, or cooked for, or she misses dating, feeling apprecaited for her uniqueness? I understand what you're saying, but the poster's issue is specific to him and his wife.
> And my point is exactly that – he needs to explore why she is attracted to a stranger – not just react to it. The problem, the issue, that caused this sudden change in their otherwise happy marriage is there somewhere.
> His wife hasn't suddenly become a selfish person. She may be acting very selfishly, yes, but there will be a reason for it. She's looking for something. She is looking for something she thinks she can't have at home.
> I don't think it's about sex, it's something else. But the poster needs to ask his wife what it is. Or at least ask her to think about it.


You make good points. They DO have unusually good communication - except for the part where she's been secretly developing feelings for another man and flirting with him. Oh, and texting him.

That said, I agree that he needs to keep up the communication and find out how she really feels about the marriage. The problem is that, now, the fog has set in and she'll have already started rewriting the history of her marriage and will have convinced herself that there are all KINDS of problems in the marriage. So anything she tells him - as long as the OM is in the picture. 

Once he's gone, once she's accepted she can never see him again, go for it - get into MC and see if there are any problems with the marriage. For now? They won't hear anything helpful.


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## turnera

ConanHub said:


> You have little to no understanding of infidelity. The stranger has some strange d!ck that will soon be in her. She is a cake eater. Look it up.
> 
> Again. Tell us your success story of allowing your husband to cheat or your husband allowing you, or maybe you could stfu?
> 
> I am dead serious. Start offering your own experience with the advice you have given or you will just be a joke to everyone on this board who has lived through the damage of infidelity.


Come on, no reason to be so rude. She has valid points - in a normal marriage. She just isn't experienced enough with infidelity to realize there is more to this than just talking. She'll get there, with experience here. If you haven't driven her off.


----------



## turnera

NumNum said:


> And do you think that your experience of infidelity means you have the answers to everyone else's? Do you think that every marriage is the same?


No, but nearly every affair is the same. That's why there is a 'script' that we can predict cheaters follow. That's why most cheaters give the ILYBINILWY speech. That's why most cheaters rewrite the history of their marriage and spout off ridiculous things that simply aren't true about the marriage. 

It's because cheaters ARE nearly all the same and that's why the advice we give is so effective at stopping affairs.


----------



## ConanHub

NumNum said:


> And do you think that your experience of infidelity means you have the answers to everyone else's? Do you think that every marriage is the same?
> My experinece with infidelity started when I was 10. My mother left my dad, after 30 years of marriage, for an alcoholic.
> My dad lost his mind, he was heartbroken and devastated. He threw her out and they never spoke again. It blew our entire family apart. They both still love each other (now in their 80s) and have never come to terms with it. My brother's 13 year marriage fell apart soon after when he left his wife for a colleague.
> I was in a relationship when I was a young adult for 4 years, when my boyfriend admitted to me that he had been using prostitues for most of our relationship. I left him after having a breakdown, and thinking I'd never get over it. I'm abbreviating a lot of this, you understand.
> I married after that, but my husband was very controlling, jealous and abusive. I had an affair. He found out, and we divorced.
> He has never remarried.
> I have been with my current partner since. I have been in therapy for quite a few years, and I've spent many years coming to terms with how my life has panned out. I have had serious problems learning how to trust men, and how to behave in relationships. I am surrounded by people my age who are victims of infidelity, and I've watched in horror as people I admire and trust have cheated and lied through their teeth.
> Infidelity has defined my life in many ways.


Good. So you have been cheated on and cheated yourself.

I see nothing but broken lives and relationships from your examples. How again did the advice you gave OP help you with your cheating and when you were cheated on?

BTW. I am very sorry you were cheated on and then lowered yourself to the same vile act. I am also sorry your mother did that to her family.

You are giving advice from a mindset as if cheating had not occurred. It has and the advice given here has worked for many. Not all advice given works for all individuals, but there are some basics that always work. We have viewed and/or experienced the advice you are giving and 99% of the time, it is the worst thing a man can do when his wife is fvcking around on him.

God bless.


----------



## NumNum

Hi turnera. Do you think that all cheaters are the same then, and that they cheat for the same reasons? 
If someone cheats 5 years into a marriage, is it as bad, or worse, than someone who cheats after 20 years? 
What if, after 30 of marriage, someone cheats? Do you just write them off? 
I hope you don't read this as me being sarcastic, I promise i'm not. I'm genuinely interested in how you think.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> Come on, no reason to be so rude. She has valid points - in a normal marriage. She just isn't experienced enough with infidelity to realize there is more to this than just talking. She'll get there, with experience here. If you haven't driven her off.


That is like saying "Come on, no reason to be so rude. She knows how to eat healthy and exercise, she just isn't experienced with open heart surgery".

Maybe she should just put down the scalpel and observe.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

All cheaters have very similar characteristics.

I get it better now. You're a wayward and you're using the rationalizations for why you cheated on your ex-boyfriend for what OP should do.

How about you go make your own thread and we can ask you if you would have not cheated if your boyfriend had only communicated better. Or maybe you could have said to him, "I'm out if you don't do X."

You see how you could have had your own agency instead of committing infidelity? We are advocating that OP *show* AND *say* his own agency to his wife. By the time you reach this point you can't just say it. You have to show it. And you have to get the real consequences of these actions into the waywards head. AND FAST.

The actions we suggest are designed to do just that. You can't nicely talk someone out of an affair. Many have tried and now they post here to help others.


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## NumNum

I cheated, I think, not because I wanted to have sex with someone else, but because I wanted to be with someone who talked to me, and who seemed to want to be with me for who I am. I wanted a loving companion, instead of one who worked all the time, and didn't have time for me. I felt very lonely, and I was young. 
Before I cheated, I used to sit indoors and cry a lot. I tried very hard to talk to my husband and we went to see a therapist. But my husband didn't want to talk to me, and in the end we had nothing to say to each other. I wasn't particularly interested in sex, I wanted a connection.
I wouldn't cheat now. I am older. I understand myself much better and I know how to ask for what I want. Only because I have learned to. It didn't come naturally.
I understand how much hurt there is on these boards. I get it. My dad, at 83, still cries about my mum. It kills me to see it. My mum really regrets how she behaved. She left him for a man who was so ridiculous and unable to be a good partner, it's shocking that she just couldn't see it.
She says it was because she felt like she just cooked and cleaned all day long. 
My dad got angry. He hit her actually. He pushed her up against the wall and throttled her the day he found out. I witnessed it.
So she left. Right into the arms of a ****head. 
I'm sorry if I've made anyone angry here. It wasn't my intention, I promise.


----------



## rustytheboyrobot

We are trying to help OP not become your dad.

His wife isn't going to tell him what she needs when she thinks she can get it from another man. When she is probably getting it from him right now (emotionally speaking). We are here to support him and his family and his children. To save his marriage.

The OM needs to be gone yesterday. To ensure that WW get's rid of OM and doesn't just go underground OP needs to show real consequences. WW also needs to being seeing that attraction in OP. These things need to happen FAST.

I stand by my advice.


----------



## BWBill

_when my boyfriend admitted to me that he had been using prostitues for most of our relationship. I left him after having a breakdown_

I'm confused. Based on your earlier advice why didn't you stay with him and try to be more open, understanding and communicative?


----------



## Forest

NumNum, you seem to need lots of attention. Do you like compliments, too? If you'd kindly start you own thread for your attention needs, I'll give you a compliment.

A nice shiny compliment.


----------



## ConanHub

Hey Num. I do not have anything against you, just your advice to OP. I believe your advice to be very harmful in his situation.

Like you, I have seen too much destruction from infidelity, even death.

I believe you made a mistake about how to deal with infidelity. Your advice is good for marriage and possibly avoiding infidelity but bad for dealing with it when it rears its ugly head.


----------



## Roselyn

I am a woman. I've never cheated nor been cheated; married ongoing 35 years. Your wife is having a physical affair. A woman and a mother does not stake their marriage for an unsure relationship; especially to a man who is already married.
You are a second choice; plan B is more appropriate.

You are putting her on a pedestal. She is not an angel. Open your eyes before you are severely hurt emotionally and financially. She is playing you like a cat with a little mouse. Divorce her!


----------



## MattMatt

NumNum said:


> I cheated,* I think, not because I wanted to have sex with someone else, but because I wanted to be with someone who talked to me, *and who seemed to want to be with me for who I am. I wanted a loving companion, instead of one who worked all the time, and didn't have time for me. I felt very lonely, and I was young.
> Before I cheated, I used to sit indoors and cry a lot. I tried very hard to talk to my husband and we went to see a therapist. But my husband didn't want to talk to me, and in the end we had nothing to say to each other. I wasn't particularly interested in sex, I wanted a connection.
> I wouldn't cheat now. I am older. I understand myself much better and I know how to ask for what I want. Only because I have learned to. It didn't come naturally.
> I understand how much hurt there is on these boards. I get it. My dad, at 83, still cries about my mum. It kills me to see it. My mum really regrets how she behaved. She left him for a man who was so ridiculous and unable to be a good partner, it's shocking that she just couldn't see it.
> She says it was because she felt like she just cooked and cleaned all day long.
> My dad got angry. He hit her actually. He pushed her up against the wall and throttled her the day he found out. I witnessed it.
> So she left. Right into the arms of a ****head.
> I'm sorry if I've made anyone angry here. It wasn't my intention, I promise.


Yeah, I had a RA (revenge affair) for pretty much the same reason.


----------



## carolinadreams

Never asks fish how to catch them.

Fish: "well you dump all the fishfood off the side of the boat and then you go back to the dock, 3 hours later fish just start jumping in your boat like magic!"

Num maybe you mean well, but if this man follows your advice hes going to end up divorced or a cuckold.

A partner who is breaking the agreements of marriage isn't a desirable partner, and you don't reward betrayal. 

After (if they can be) firm boundaries are put into place and observed, then you can address and take ownership of any relationship failures.

If his wife was missing any aspect of a fulfilling marriage it was and is her responsibility to articulate that to her husband and work within the boundaries of the marriage to achieve it, failing that she's free to ask him for a divorce. The first option isn't to go get some cut-rate validation from a stranger's penis.

Num just because you say something politely, nicely, or with warmly doesn't mean it isn't horribly inappropriate advice, that's why people are reacting to you with contempt. Time after time we've seen here that any attempt to nice your way out of infidelity just leads to more pain and damage, and that's what your advice would create.


----------



## turnera

NumNum said:


> It blew our entire family apart.
> 
> my boyfriend admitted to me that he had been using prostitutes for most of our relationship
> 
> my husband was very controlling, jealous and abusive. I had an affair.


Ah, how did I miss that? You want us to be touchy feely with the cheater because you WERE a cheater. After you were devastated more than once BY a cheater.

btw, my H of 35 years has never cheated on me. So I'm no vindictive or hurt or any other BS.

There's a time and place for talking and understanding - and that's AFTER the OM is gone.


----------



## carolinadreams

S


> he insists that she needs to meet with him face-to-face to clear the air and help her sort out her feelings. He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. I’ve agreed to this. I know conventional wisdom says that people in emotional entanglements should cut off all contact. Knowing her personality, for me to demand that would make her dig in and intensify her feelings for him. I made the judgment call to agree to give her space to communicate with him, subject to a few rules.


Propwash stop!

Was your understanding of marriage to be physical and emotional monogamy?

What more clarification do you need to understand this man wants to put his penis in your wife? Is there any scenario where you are okay with this man having sex with your wife? If you want to continue to be married, and married in such a way why you aren't waking up every-morning with self-hatred and disgust for your wife, you need to enforce some boundaries with your wife.

If you still insist on this you should first insist that you have the right to talk to his wife, if nothing else you could find out his sexual and emotional preferences from his wife and then share them with your wife, so she can be better prepared.

Why do you not respect yourself enough, to say you know what I'm not going to do the "pick me dance", if you don't want to choose me I'll help you pack tonight and you can find another place to live. Period. Then you can explore all you want to on your own dime, on your time, with no emotional support from this family.


----------



## IIJokerII

carolinadreams said:


> S
> 
> Propwash stop!
> 
> Was your understanding of marriage to be physical and emotional monogamy?
> 
> What more clarification do you need to understand this man wants to put his penis in your wife?


I cannot say that I have ever met anyone, especially a man who was willing and helpful in support the sexual relationship of their spouse and another person, again, especially a man. If your thread is real than you are or have been a victim of emotional abuse and simply do not have the ability to deal with this situation as you seem to be disconnected from the natural, or if others prefer, standard feelings of being betrayed. Immeasurable anger and hurt should be what you feel and express, not sympathy and understanding, if these are what you truly feel then you were never emotionally connected with her to begin with.

Honestly, you have what most people would've given a toe for; The unbridled truth of the matter, she is/wants to step outside the marriage and she has willingly given you information about it and asked you for help regarding it as well. Her rationale is that she either knew you were weak and feared no consequence or felt the same level of disconnection and figured whatever consequences, if any, were worth the risk of her coming clean, or honest about the affair.

You've already accepted it, another milestone for betrayed spouses, now you have to find out why you did so and why so willingly? You seriously need to do a quick reflection about what you are in life and if you can identify your feelings. You have the power to fight this off with ease, find your inner fight and do what must be done, for yourself at least.


----------



## mablenc

Nothing, and I mean nothing gets a cheater out of the fog than to show them the door. Thats the only way reality sinks in. Everything else like being nice, trying to understand them, begging, pleading, dressing up the kids and having them behave, dragging them to counseling, telling them how good they have it, nothing else works.

Many of us spent our time trying everything but, standing firm, and we wasted our time and sanity. You only get hurt further as you are encouraging their behavior.


----------



## turnera

btw, prop, you ARE allowed to go to your wife and say "I was shocked by what you said. But now I've had a lot of time to think about it and I have to take back what I said. I can NOT accept you seeing him 'one last time'. If you love me, you won't do it. And if you do go through with it, I'll have to consider our marriage over. I can't share you with another man."


----------



## turnera

mablenc said:


> Nothing, and I mean nothing gets a cheater out of the fog than to show them the door. Thats the only way reality sinks in.


 And the SECOND most effective thing is to show the cheater that YOU will go out and live a great life WITHOUT her, and be sexy and have fun and be attractive to other women, if she goes.


----------



## carolinadreams

I'll double down on Turnera and say nothing will remove your wife's attraction for you faster than go along and be a willing partner in the destruction of your own marriage. Your willingly enabling her infidelity should be enough to put the last nails in the coffin of your marriage and her respect for you.


----------



## X-B

nm wrong post


----------



## bandit.45

Folks...I'm thinking a pimple faced, fat scrub is sitting down in front of a computer in his mom's basement eating Cheetos, swilling Mountain Dew, and jerking our chains....


----------



## tom67

bandit.45 said:


> Folks...I'm thinking a pimple faced, fat scrub is sitting down in front of a computer in his mom's basement eating Cheetos, swilling Mountain Dew, and jerking our chains....


Eh can you say literotica?:lol:


----------



## X-B

bandit.45 said:


> Folks...I'm thinking a pimple faced, fat scrub is sitting down in front of a computer in his mom's basement eating Cheetos, swilling Mountain Dew, and jerking our chains....


Don't put down swilling Mt Dew. that is my life's blood


----------



## tom67

X-Betaman said:


> Don't put down swilling Mt Dew. that is my life's blood


I drank that stuff while golfing I got the shakes.
Juuuust a little too much caffeine.


----------



## ThePheonix

Propwash72 said:


> He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. * I’ve agreed to this.*


Once again a picture is worth a thousand words.


----------



## ThePheonix

bandit.45 said:


> Folks...I'm thinking a pimple faced, fat scrub is sitting down in front of a computer in his mom's basement eating Cheetos, swilling Mountain Dew, and jerking our chains....


Are you suggesting old Hogwash errrrr.... Propwash is not on the level?


----------



## warlock07

Propwash72 said:


> Great replies so far. A reality sandwich is what I need right now. I know that my response has been pretty f***ed up. My thought right now is that if she wants to continue "exploring" this guy, she does it alone. I'll give her the choice of either ending all contact with him or I go find an apartment.


Nope, she should go, regardless. She already crossed the line. If she wants you back, let her earn you back.

She is also lying a lot. Like, 99% you've heard about her affair is a lie.



> Someone mentioned making me her "girlfriend". Ironically enough, she's stopped talking to her best friend of 38 years because she's not "supportive" enough. My guess is that her friend wouldnt cheerlead her fantasy.


call herfriend


----------



## warlock07

Just noticed one more thing. Not just the affair, everything you believe in or should believe in, your opinions about stuff - everything is managed by your wife.

When did you become so dependant on her for validation ?


----------



## Q tip

ThePheonix said:


> Once again a picture is worth a thousand words.


Wrong end...


----------



## OldWolf57

Num, read some threads. You will see these folks know what they are talking about.

As to your question to Turnera,, yes all cheaters are the same.
They cheat because they can. The why is just as simple, they can.

No MC or R is possible as long as there is a third in the marriage.

Cheaters have the option, just as you did, to D before lowering yourself to cheat. You saw there was nothing to save in your marriage, but you chose to cheat, before ending it. Which just added more emotional damage to yourself as well as the marriage.

Like has been said, your advice is good for a marriage, NOT for cheating.

OP, you really really need to find out why you are accepting this.
Her 38 yr friend is more respectful of your marriage than you are. You're saying you don't need her, but your actions show different.
there comes a time when good old fashioned manliness is the only way to get the point across.
Put your foot down, and set boundries


----------



## Thound

tom67 said:


> I drank that stuff while golfing I got the shakes.
> Juuuust a little too much caffeine.


That's what the Copenhagen is for. It takes the edge off.


----------



## azteca1986

NumNum said:


> They're not teenagers who've been dating for a few months.


Good point.



> She needs to see that an unfaithful stranger at work is a terrible choice for a partner...


Umm. She's not a teenager. She's been married for years. She shouldn't be even contemplating having a boyfriend whilst she's married. She should know that already.



NumNum said:


> Hi turnera. Do you think that all cheaters are the same then, and that they cheat for the same reasons?


They all value their own integrity less than they ought. They have that in common.


> If someone cheats 5 years into a marriage, is it as bad, or worse, than someone who cheats after 20 years?


It's all bad. 


> What if, after 30 of marriage, someone cheats? Do you just write them off?


Why not? They've already written you off. It is a perfectly legitimate response to being back-stabbed to have nothing more to do with your spouse if they betray you. 

Perhaps it's because I've never cheated, that I expect my wife to be ruthless with me, to protect herself from further betrayal if I ever did choose to cheat. We both have a low tolerance to being back-stabbed. I don't feel _entitled_ to second chances.

I realise, how easy it is to fall into an affair. A series of bad choices and there you are. "It just happened". On the other hand, it's worth considering it's even easier not to cheat. No special skills. You just say "No" every time you're supposed to.


----------



## NoChoice

Another troll??? I simply do not understand what they get from this.


----------



## dkphap13

Let me give you my take on this.

First off all your story is 95% just like mine. Only major diffrence is that my wife got involved with her boss. Not some customer at the hotel. Don't Listion to a few people here Your wife is not a bad women. And you don't have to give her a divorce it has not got that bad yet. She is just in a fog stage and really really messed up. It all depends on what you do from now on. 


Comparing your story to mine this what I can assume so far I could wrong about many thing 

You both never fight maybe a few arguments here and there but nothing major 
All off your friends and family look at both off you as the model couple 
You both consider your selfs best friends and can confide in each other about everything
She probly hit the gym about two years ago as she lost weight and started looking even better. You became a little self conscious and pushed her away in every way possible. Probably started to tell her she looks good all the time. 
You both probably have a few close friends. And are always around each other. Your wife gym activity is probably the only thing you both do separately. 
You are a good guy but I am 99% positive you had a EA or a PA your self at one point in your marriage. You being so open and understanding about your wife's situation gives that away. You probably feel that if I did it how can I blame her for doing it. 
In your mind 

If I let her do somewhat of what she wants she will see that we are meant to be 
Wrong !!! If you let her have dinner with this guy you will lose her If I can show that I can love her more than anyone else that she will love me back 
Wrong !!! She already knows she can find someone else to love her even though we know he is just trying to get in her pants ( trust me she knows that too). 
If I stay calm and just be her best friend ... 
Wrong !!! Your are not her best girlfriend you are her husband and her lover so start acting like one. 
If I lose a little extra pounds she'll find me attractive again. 
Wrong !!!! If this was about looks she would have found some one from the gym with a lot of muscles. Most likely OM is a average looking guy no better or worse than you. 
It's all my fault for this to get this far it must've been something I did. 
Wrong!!! It takes two to tango
Let me not make her up set she might leave
Wrong again !!!! She is going to leave you. If you don't stand up for your marriage. 

In her mind 

There was nothing wrong with our relationship I just found some one better
I have never felt like this about anyone in my life 
This is the first time I actually love them back 
I think off you as a brother 
You are my best friend but I don't think off you that way
All he has to do is look at me and I get turned on down there no one has ever made me feel that way 
I did not mean for it to happen it just happened.


----------



## ThePheonix

dkphap13 said:


> In her mind
> 
> There was nothing wrong with our relationship I just found some one better
> I have never felt like this about anyone in my life
> This is the first time I actually love them back
> I think off you as a brother
> You are my best friend but I don't think off you that way
> All he has to do is look at me and I get turned on down there no one has ever made me feel that way
> I did not mean for it to happen it just happened.


Additionally, in her mind:

_"I'm telling him this new guy makes me wet my pants. What I'm I going to do before he gets the friggin message"_

To translate from womanese:

_"I now realize I don't dig you anymore so please, for gawds sake, get lost". _


----------



## RV9

ThePheonix said:


> To translate from womanese:
> 
> _"I now realize I don't dig you anymore so please, for gawds sake, get lost". _


Women are such complicated creatures.


----------



## dkphap13

ThePheonix said:


> Additionally, in her mind:
> 
> _"I'm telling him this new guy makes me wet my pants. What I'm I going to do before he gets the friggin message"_
> 
> To translate from womanese:
> 
> _"I now realize I don't dig you anymore so please, for gawds sake, get lost". _



Hahahahahahahahaha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Propwash72

Update. Believe it or not I'm not a troll. My situation was just that insane. She's cut things off with him, gave me access to all her electronics...no going out for drinks. She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (preexisting issues, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation. She's also open to counseling, which is a turnaround from before. Read NMMNG about 5 times this week, putting it into practice. We'll see what happens next.


----------



## TurtleRun

Well..... I am glad she isn't going out on dates with your permission now. I was about to say that was a pretty stupid thing to do.


----------



## honcho

Propwash72 said:


> Update. Believe it or not I'm not a troll. My situation was just that insane. She's cut things off with him, gave me access to all her electronics...no going out for drinks. She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (preexisting issues, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation. She's also open to counseling, which is a turnaround from before. Read NMMNG about 5 times this week, putting it into practice. We'll see what happens next.


So the OM dumped her and now you have become plan B. She didn't have the sudden turn of feelings in a week.


----------



## turnera

Propwash72 said:


> Update. Believe it or not I'm not a troll. My situation was just that insane. She's cut things off with him, gave me access to all her electronics...no going out for drinks. She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (preexisting issues, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation. She's also open to counseling, which is a turnaround from before. Read NMMNG about 5 times this week, putting it into practice. We'll see what happens next.


You showed strength.

She responded.

'nuff said.


----------



## Sports Fan

Intresting to note that the other man probably bailed just as the shi..t was going to hit the fan.

She got dumped alright. This sudden change of heart was no sudden Epiphany from her.


----------



## BobSimmons

Propwash72 said:


> *She insists that she needs to meet with him face-to-face to clear the air and help her sort out her feelings. He’s coming back into town in December and they plan to meet for drinks. I’ve agreed to this.*


What!? No!

Seriously dude?


----------



## BobSimmons

Propwash72 said:


> Update. Believe it or not I'm not a troll. My situation was just that insane. She's cut things off with him, gave me access to all her electronics...no going out for drinks. She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (preexisting issues, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation. She's also open to counseling, which is a turnaround from before. Read NMMNG about 5 times this week, putting it into practice. We'll see what happens next.


Still seems like she's driving where this goes and you're just hanging on. If it's not this guy then it will be someone else.
Good luck hanging on.


----------



## Q tip

OP.

Lose weight, work out. Read Married Man Sex Life Primer.


----------



## Arven

If my man let me go on a date with some guy, I would take it as hint that he doesn't give a **** about me. 
That is woman's perspective.
My husband is a very kind man and not at all jealous (since I have never given him a cause to be jealous). Sometimes this pisses me of and i intentionally try to make him a little bit jealous. If he would not react to me having a boyfried, well he is not my husband anymore - maybe brother, son, friend, but no husband if he doesn't care about other males visiting his teritory.


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Propwash 

So far all your attitudes, responses, words, actions are irrelevant. 

Even if you dodge a bullet in your current relationship you will forever be easy prey for cheaters unless you man up. 

It's just that simple.

But then again that's a good strategy for keeping us under your bridge.


----------



## Graywolf2

Propwash72 said:


> She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (preexisting issues, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation.


She put you on probation. Congratulations! I hope you measure up.


----------



## NoChoice

Prop,

Did you inform the OM's wife? Maybe she castrated him and solved this one for you...However, you need a game plan for next time.


----------



## Propwash72

Nope, she bailed on him. On the phone, me listening in. I mailed the NC letter myself this morning. If it's a big put-on, I'll know soon enough. This didn't fix our issues by a long shot, but it took care (hopefully) of a big complication. Actually at this point saving the marriage is secondary. I'm putting NMMNG into effect, have already lost 30 pounds and updated my wardrobe. Looking for a better job. If she gets her head on straight and recommits to me for real, then awesome. If she doesn't, then the next Mrs is going to get herself a hell of a husband. In 21 years she has never given me a reason to mistrust her. Not once. When she did screw up I was just winging it. The result was the insanity I wrote about in my OP. I'd rather give my marriage the best shot I can, knowing that it might not work out, than approach it pessimistically and set up a self-fulfilling prophecy. She does know that if this guy or any other pops up in the future, then I'll pull the trigger on our marriage myself. She also knows that if she were to leave me for someone else, he'd better be everything she wants, because I will no longer be an option if she realizes she made a mistake. Time will tell.


----------



## Propwash72

One other thing. She did cut it off with OM, but is very depressed right now. I expected it, she's going through withdrawal. Is the 180 still appropriate here?


----------



## azteca1986

Propwash72 said:


> She's still pessimistic about the state of our marriage, (*preexisting issues*, nothing to do with other guy) but agreed to at least six months before we'd even consider a trial separation.


Yes, we've heard this before. It's typical cheater speak. I'll hazard a guess that all of the "pre-existing conditions' when added together weren't as detrimental to the marriage has her having a boyfriend. 

See, in the process of getting ready to cheat on you, which she knew full well was wrong, she had to blow up every little thing that you didn't get perfectly right. She had to give herself permission to cheat by denigrating and disrespecting you. This kind of thinking will take time to unlearn on her part...



> Read NMMNG about 5 times this week, putting it into practice. We'll see what happens next.


...And yours. Though it's great to see from your update that you're heading in the right direction, remember Nice Guy behaviour must be ingrained in you (I only read the first page of NMMNG and couldn't relate).

Why the sudden change of heart from your wife, prop?


----------



## Propwash72

I wouldn't call it a change of heart so much as the cracks started to show in her fantasy. She finally started feeling remorse for his wife, and also realized that he's not really an option. A conversation she had with her best friend sealed the deal, and she finally realized there was no future with him. She doesn't see me as an option either, but that could be the withdrawal talking. I know better than to put too much stock in what she says in the midst of depression on any given day. Maybe she'll see her way clear to me again, maybe not.


----------



## Chaparral

There is no guarantee this is over, beware.

How did she decide to to drop him? Did you threaten to divorce her?


----------



## commonsenseisn't

Propwash72 said:


> have already lost 30 pounds and updated my wardrobe. .


So, in your original post you said dd was a "few weeks" ago and now you've already lost 30 lbs? 

Good one.


----------



## bandit.45

commonsenseisn't said:


> So, in your original post you said dd was a "few weeks" ago and now you've already lost 30 lbs?
> 
> Good one.


Um...very possible. I dropped 40 pounds in one month when I was going through my hell. I lived on Red Bull and vitamins. Couldn't hold down food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Remorse for his wife? WTF...


----------



## NoChoice

Propwash72 said:


> Nope, she bailed on him. On the phone, me listening in. I mailed the NC letter myself this morning. If it's a big put-on, I'll know soon enough. This didn't fix our issues by a long shot, but it took care (hopefully) of a big complication. Actually at this point saving the marriage is secondary. I'm putting NMMNG into effect, have already lost 30 pounds and updated my wardrobe. Looking for a better job. If she gets her head on straight and recommits to me for real, then awesome. If she doesn't, then the next Mrs is going to get herself a hell of a husband. In 21 years she has never given me a reason to mistrust her. Not once. When she did screw up I was just winging it. The result was the insanity I wrote about in my OP. I'd rather give my marriage the best shot I can, knowing that it might not work out, than approach it pessimistically and set up a self-fulfilling prophecy. She does know that if this guy or any other pops up in the future, then I'll pull the trigger on our marriage myself. She also knows that if she were to leave me for someone else, he'd better be everything she wants, because I will no longer be an option if she realizes she made a mistake. Time will tell.


And stick to it! And I vote to continue the 180, don't go soft on her now. Let her see the new you.


----------



## Propwash72

Sorry, no, I didn't lose 30 pounds since bomb drop. I had already lost 15 since the first of the year, my loving wife helped with the rest . and no, I don't believe this is at all over. That's why I insisted on full access to her electronics. Even IF it's over with this guy, she's still in a dark hole when it comes to our future. Hopefully that's just the withdrawal talking. I talked with one of her best girlfriends today at lunch. Even she thinks my wife's out of her mind. My wife denies it, but I know she's blown up our problems. They're no worse than what any couple has to deal with. Either she's blowing up our problems to justify her misbehavior, or her addiction (I likened it to heroin) to this guy is screwing with her perception of, well, everything. 180 continues as planned.


----------



## Propwash72

Q tip said:


> Remorse for his wife? WTF...


One of the cracks in her fantasy started when she figured out that his wife had NO CLUE that he was unhappy in his marriage. That made him either 1) a liar who was just trying to get in her pants (which was my opinion) or 2) a coward who would rather look outside his marriage for comfort than face his problems in his own marriage. Either way, he started to look a lot less attractive after that.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Hey prop. What exactly are the reasons given by your wife for why she feels that you two are no longer compatible? If you're going to get thru this to figure out what you and she ultimately wants, you need to figure out where exactly do you stand. 

Are we talking about stupid things like her being angry because you yelled at her about something 5 years ago? Are we talking about you spending 90% of your time away from home hanging out with friends while she's home by herself? What level of accusations is she leveling against you? Are they legit or are they bullsh!t? Answers to these questions will give further clues about how you can move forward with this - if you want to remain with her that is.


----------



## TRy

azteca1986 said:


> Yes, we've heard this before. It's typical cheater speak. I'll hazard a guess that all of the "pre-existing conditions' when added together weren't as detrimental to the marriage has her having a boyfriend.
> 
> See, in the process of getting ready to cheat on you, which she knew full well was wrong, she had to blow up every little thing that you didn't get perfectly right. She had to give herself permission to cheat by denigrating and disrespecting you.


 :iagree::iagree::iagree:

This in a nutshell is what is going on with your wife. If you get nothing else from this thread, read what Azeta1986 wrote above again and again, until you fully understand, and act based on this advice. You should especially pay attention to "See, in the process of getting ready to cheat on you, which she knew full well was wrong, she had to blow up every little thing that you didn't get perfectly right." Cheaters always try to hold their spouse to a standard of perfection that they know as a human that you will fail, because they want you to fail. It is a game that you cannot win, because as the sole judge she will always rule that you failed.


----------



## RV9

TRy said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> This in a nutshell is what is going on with your wife. If you get nothing else from this thread, read what Azeta1986 wrote above again and again, until you fully understand, and act based on this advice. You should especially pay attention to "See, in the process of getting ready to cheat on you, which she knew full well was wrong, she had to blow up every little thing that you didn't get perfectly right." Cheaters always try to hold their spouse to a standard of perfection that they know as a human that you will fail, because they want you to fail. It is a game that you cannot win, because as the sole judge she will always rule that you failed.


The game is always rigged against the BS.


----------



## turnera

Ask her to read Not Just Friends.


----------



## TRy

BTW, stop making excuses for your wife by calling it a "midlife crisis". Cheaters always make excuses to minimize their actions. When they cheat when they are young, they say that they married before they were ready. When they cheat in midlife, they say that they are in a midlife crisis. When they cheat when they are old, they say that now that the children are adults and on their own, they are finally free to focus on living a life that allows them to be happy. With the above, cheaters have an excuse for cheating for every year of their marriage. Never mind that spouses that are true to their vows live every year of their marriages with the same issues, but never felt that those issue gave them an excuse to cheat.


----------



## Propwash72

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Hey prop. What exactly are the reasons given by your wife for why she feels that you two are no longer compatible? If you're going to get thru this to figure out what you and she ultimately wants, you need to figure out where exactly do you stand.
> 
> Are we talking about stupid things like her being angry because you yelled at her about something 5 years ago? Are we talking about you spending 90% of your time away from home hanging out with friends while she's home by herself? What level of accusations is she leveling against you? Are they legit or are they bullsh!t? Answers to these questions will give further clues about how you can move forward with this - if you want to remain with her that is.


Here they are. 

We got married too young; I was in my last semester of college (this one's BS, a lot of couples get married right out of college)

My parents tended to meddle in our relationship. Of all our issues, this one has the most legitimacy. I did lack backbone when dealing with my parents, especially early on. This is one of the "nice guy" behaviors I'm addressing. They dropped a huge grenade in our marriage a few years ago where they initimated that my wife was being harmful to our children. I knew they were full of it; up until September she's been a great mom. She lost trust in me because in her mind I failed to defend her adequately and later on pressured her to forgive my parents. I never agreed with my parents for one minute, but I didn't shut down their meddling quickly enough.

I spent a lot of our marriage depressive, moody, short tempered, whined about my job a lot (I did do that. I dislike my job and I'm looking for a new one.) Basically I acted like Billy Crystal in the beginning of City Slickers. This one's a half truth. I will cop to being that way on occasion. I've had to do some serious addressing of my attitudes about life and career, part of my own midlife soul-searching. It's just that now to her I was that way for most of our marriage, which is a total exaggeration.

When she's lucid, she acknowledges some of the things she did.

Early in our marriage, she refused to move from our area and it ended up torpedoing my career plans. Her father died about a year before we got married, and she went from being a spontaneous girl who was up for a little adventure to being terrified to move more than 90 miles away from her mother. I took a few years to work through that resentment.

She poured all of her energy into motherhood, to the point where all she cared about was being a mother rather than a wife. It took me forever to get her to leave the kids long enough for us to go away for a weekend. I suggested we take them to my parents for Spring Break one year, so we could have some couple time and she nearly blew her stack. This was before the grenade mentioned above.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can think of. Basically what I did was own up to my mistakes where warranted. I told her there's nothing either one of us can do to erase the past, we can only move on and learn from it. She just can't seem to get past it. I told her I didn't blame her for her feelings but she was completely responsible for her actions. With all my flaws as a husband, the one thing I never did was turn to another woman.


----------



## Sports Fan

Props wife has spun this round nicely. She cheats he finds out and the consequence is he gets put on probation.

Good way to set yourself up for future misery. Sorry to be so harsh. 

A 180 and some firms conditions on her is still called for on your behalf.


----------



## Propwash72

Sports Fan said:


> Props wife has spun this round nicely. She cheats he finds out and the consequence is he gets put on probation.
> 
> Good way to set yourself up for future misery. Sorry to be so harsh.
> 
> A 180 and some firms conditions on her is still called for on your behalf.


Don't quite see it that way. I still don't believe she physically cheated but it was only a matter of time. I'm not on probation; if she can't get her head on straight in the next 6 months then I'm pulling the trigger myself. I've owned up to my mistakes. I'll learn from them going forward, either in this marriage or my next relationship. The 180 is still in effect and continued NC with the other guy is non-negotiable. Counseling is also mandatory


----------



## ReidWright

Propwash72 said:


> Nope, she bailed on him. On the phone, me listening in. I mailed the NC letter myself this morning. If it's a big put-on, I'll know soon enough.


NC letter to the husband only? you need to inform the wife too At bare minimum she can make sure he won't book his next trip to the Hankypanky Hotel that your wife works at...

and, as a BS, she deserves to know that her hubby has been actively trying to get in the pants of your wife (or probably has already)

maybe a follow up call would make sure she's keeping an eye on him.


----------



## turnera

You haven't told his wife yet?


----------



## just got it 55

Propwash72 said:


> One other thing. She did cut it off with OM, but is very depressed right now. I expected it, she's going through withdrawal. Is the 180 still appropriate here?


Just step back and watch her actions

55


----------



## honcho

You do need to remember that the affair is a completely separate problem from whatever may or may not have pre-existed. You have been together a long time and just like EVERY couple that has been together a long time you can find problems. You said it yourself she can blow things out of proportion, make a mountain out of a molehill. They will convince themselves and spin things to justify what they want to do

She will do a great deal of that now, blame deflection is an easy tool to use to take the focus of the problem today. The affair. You should work and improve yourself no matter how this all works out. Most of the issues you wrote about have existed for a long time. If these issues were that huge to her why didn’t she leave say a year ago?

Take your 6 month and see how things are and toss that out the window now. You cant put timelines on this, it doesn’t work that way. You most likely haven’t even gotten the whole truth yet in this mess so your working day to day. She isn’t depressed because she is going thru withdrawal. She is depressed because her “master plan” blew up.


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## TRy

Propwash72 said:


> We got married too young; I was in my last semester of college (this one's BS, a lot of couples get married right out of college)


 Based on your title calling it a midlife crisis, and having no way of knowing that your wife was going use the "married too young" excuse because you had not yet posted it, I posted "BTW, stop making excuses for your wife by calling it a "midlife crisis". Cheaters always make excuses to minimize their actions. When they cheat when they are young, they say that they married before they were ready. When they cheat in midlife, they say that they are in a midlife crisis. When they cheat when they are old, they say that now that the children are adults and on their own, they are finally free to focus on living a life that allows them to be happy. With the above, cheaters have an excuse for cheating for every year of their marriage." How did I know almost an hour before you posted that this was one of the three options for an excuse that she would use? Simple, she is following the standard cheaters script. If I could get royalties every time a cheater quotes from the cheaters script, I would be rich.


----------



## honcho

TRy said:


> Based on your title calling it a midlife crisis, and having no way of knowing that your wife was going use the "married too young" excuse because you had not yet posted it, I posted "BTW, stop making excuses for your wife by calling it a "midlife crisis". Cheaters always make excuses to minimize their actions. When they cheat when they are young, they say that they married before they were ready. When they cheat in midlife, they say that they are in a midlife crisis. When they cheat when they are old, they say that now that the children are adults and on their own, they are finally free to focus on living a life that allows them to be happy. With the above, cheaters have an excuse for cheating for every year of their marriage." How did I know almost an hour before you posted that this was one of the three options for an excuse that she would use? Simple, she is following the standard cheaters script. If I could get royalties every time a cheater quotes from the cheaters script, I would be rich.


It is an oldie but a goodie......

My stbx used it too, we didn't meet until we were 30.


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## Chaparral

How has your sex life been in the last year? Has it increased, decreased, stayed the same? Was it good before this happened?

Have you checked closely for a burner phone? The om is probably experienced at this.


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## ThePheonix

QUOTE=Propwash72;10798914] She lost trust in me because in her mind I failed to defend her adequately and later on pressured her to forgive my parents. I never agreed with my parents for one minute, but I didn't shut down their meddling quickly enough.
[/QUOTE]

Let's see PW, you pressured her to kiss your parent's a....errrr.... forgive your parents and probably apologize , but you never agreed with them? Just when I thought I’d heard it all, it turns out you’re making totally incredible statement. You may have better sense than to believe your wife was harming the kids but you didn't have the guts to defend her and instead, sided with mommie and daddy. 
How could she possibly develop feelings for another man when she has a big strong brute of a man who will stand by her side, put her first, and defend her like you do? She should know your the type man she can depend on when things really come at her. Like my FIL, CSM (Ret) 5th Special Forces Vietnam (Delta Force) would say, "that soldier deserves a medal for valor". I'll be damned if I'll ever understand woman.


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## badmemory

Sorry prop, but my take is this six month trial is just her way of staying in control of the situation and using your fear of divorce against you. That way she can avoid having to face consequences and making efforts to pretend she's remorseful. 

She's wants you to think that you better behave and not bother her with this. She wants you to believe that you are on a 6 month trial instead of her.


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## Working1

NumNum said:


> I also wouldn't advocate playing games like pretending to be having an affair, or spraying perfume about the place. She'll see through it. It's passive aggressive, immature and pointless. You can't be indignant if you also behaving unreasonably. Always act with respect. Your dignity is very important, and drama is just going to inflame the situation.
> Maybe you're too cool. But if you've been married for so long, your coolness and your ability to be considerate and loving, and communicative has worked well for you.
> But, like I said, you have a right to be angry and you certainly have a right to demand better treatment now.


Nothing works better than at a certain time in the beginning of this sort of state, where he has just recently found out and they are discussing what is going on, nothing works better than him telling his wife" I can see how happy and energized you are with this new found relationship in your life, you look so forward to seeing him soon" " I want to feel like you! I want to meet somebody new too!"

This will send her reeling and she will suddenly be putting her thoughts back on her husband....where they should be. 

Well, thoughts should only be there if he wants to work it out with his wife...

You see the problem is that she is thinking about the OM, all her husband needs to get her to do is start thinking about him, and then they can work this deal out.


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## IIJokerII

badmemory said:


> Sorry prop, but my take is this six month trial is just her way of staying in control of the situation and using your fear of divorce against you. That way she can avoid having to face consequences and making efforts to pretend she's remorseful.
> 
> She's wants you to think that you better behave and not bother her with this. She wants you to believe that you are on a 6 month trial instead of her.


True dat, I have never seen an employer reward a employee who got caught embezzling with a raise all the while making the employer bend to his/her demands as well as telling them that they better treat him/her better or else the embezzling will not only continue but get worse.

You are being had sir, time to detach this realm of thinking and introduce something that will invoke a very angry response called unacceptability of the truth. Proceed accordingly.


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## Roselyn

Propwash72 said:


> Don't quite see it that way. I still don't believe she physically cheated but it was only a matter of time. I'm not on probation; if she can't get her head on straight in the next 6 months then I'm pulling the trigger myself. I've owned up to my mistakes. I'll learn from them going forward, either in this marriage or my next relationship. The 180 is still in effect and continued NC with the other guy is non-negotiable. Counseling is also mandatory


You don't believe that she physically cheated? I'm a woman. To take this relationship as far as she has and tells you that you are on probation, my God man, open your eyes! How much pain do you need? You gave her six months to get her head on straight? I'll give my husband a minute. I don't say these words to you lightly as I've been married for ongoing 35 years and I love my husband dearly.


----------



## IIJokerII

Roselyn said:


> You don't believe that she physically cheated? I'm a woman. To take this relationship as far as she has and tells you that you are on probation, my God man, open your eyes! How much pain do you need? You gave her six months to get her head on straight? I'll give my husband a minute. I don't say these words to you lightly as I've been married for ongoing 35 years and I love my husband dearly.


Double true!!!!


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## helolover

Deadlines, threats, poly, monitoring electronics, etc. = compliance. 

compliance is not arousing or attractive (these are 2 different things). People want to be in relationships because of desire. You cannot negotiate genuine desire. It's there or it is not. Once the desire is gone, people go looking for it - and in some cases destroy perfectly good relationships, families, histories in order to get it from somewhere. Don't forget that sexual arousal and attraction is the reason that you and several billion of our closest compadres are walking the planet and have for eons. It's a powerful force for humans - we're just smart mammals. She had her fling. You/she can't change the past, but you can change the way you deal with it. If she wants to chase after her dream stud, then you cannot stop her. The door is open, lady. Be on your way. 

Continue to work on YOU. Get counseling. Envision where you want to be. Watch what your wife does - not what she says. Her actions tell you who she is. Actions > words. It's cliche because it's true. 

Increase your arousal and attraction capacities:

What's arousing is if you have some edge or some masculine mettle. Participate in sports, flying, music band, Krav Maga, jujitsu, etc. You were born with a set of stones. Use them. You must hang out with other men. I cannot emphasize this enough. Other dudes will keep you straight - just like I am trying to do.

What's attractive is if you keep losing weight, but make sure you are getting fit. That means lifting some weights and some cardio. Dress as well as you can afford. Be active and get out there. If your grill is jacked, get it fixed. If you still have hair, get a new style. Do NOT ask permission or for feedback. Seeking validation is beta (omega) male behaviour. You can make your own decisions.

Become a man that women want to fu$%. Your sexual market value increases. Women want their guy to be desired by other women. If you're acting/dressing/being a hapless loser, then you are easily kicked to the curb. Display the high value male that you are. Your STBXW will not enjoy this. Your change in behavior will drive her nuts and she will let you know it. It means it is working. Some call it the 180 and I suppose it is, but really you are simply improving yourself and moving away from being co-D and controlled. You don't have to ignore her, but you need to get a life (GAL). If YOU choose to R, then it's on your terms. 

And stop worrying about OM. He was just looking for a piece of a$$ (POA). He's a doosh canoe and got busted. I bet he's not around anymore. STBXW is now more trouble than the POA is worth. Simple business case analysis. If he is still around, he can have the beautiful snowflake. 

Get your a$$ in gear, Hoss. Take a break from affairland and her problems. You don't have to participate in her probationary period. That's for her anyways. You do things on your own terms. You are the prize - not her. Knock her off the pedestal you've put her on. Focus on fixing your own emotional issues and taking care of your own needs. 

Here to support - 

HL


----------



## Propwash72

Best advice I've heard yet, helo

Situation as it stands. No contact with OM since NC sent a week ago. She went through a deep depression for a couple of days and then started to climb out of it. I likened it to withdrawal. This weekend she told me that she wants to stay and work on our marriage. No 6 months, no trial separation talk. She's now insisting on going to counseling, so she can get to the bottom of why she fell down this rabbit hole. Given her resistance to counseling in the past, this is a pretty big turnaround. It's amazing that ever since she got unentangled from this guy, our "insurmountable" problems suddenly became surmountable.

Is this over? Not by a long shot. I'm continuing to monitor her communications for the forseeable future. While I still cannot find any evidence of a PA, it was sure heading that way and probably would have already happened had he actually lived in our area. I know, I know, it's entirely possible that something's already happened, but eventually I'm going to have to go on the evidence I have. As many posters have said here, actions, not words. I have to watch her like a hawk for any changes in her story, trickle truthing, etc. So far so good, but it hasn't been that long. Time will tell.

Helo's advice is spot on. The turning point for me was when saving the marriage became a secondary goal. The primary goal became improving me. Once I accepted that nothing I could do or say would change her mind, I stopped trying and started working on me. I got off her emotional roller coaster and detached. I started getting in better shape and updating my wardrobe. Started living life without her (interesting you mentioned flying, helo. I surmised you might have been a fellow aviator based on your nick). It didn't change her rhetoric immediately, but she started noticing immediately that I was pulling back. It didn't diminish my desire to repair our marriage, but it became clear to her quickly that I was ready to move on without her, if that's the way things turned out.

I set explicit boundaries with her and started taking away her safety net. No contact with OM, period if she wanted to stay married to me. If I caught her contacting him, I would file for divorce myself. I made it clear that if she left me for him, then he'd better be everything she wanted. I would no longer be an option for her if she realized she made a mistake 6 months down the road. 

NMMNG is now my favorite book. If I ever meet Dr. Glover in person, he won't have to buy his own beers. I needed that book for all areas of my life, not just my marriage. I was a classic Nice Guy in so many ways.

Once I finally learned to approach this from a position of strength, things started to turn around. The 180 is real, folks. We're nowhere near out of the woods, but in a far better place than a couple of weeks ago. Time will tell.


----------



## bandit.45

Agreed. you are nowhere near out of the woods. If the OM called her tomorrow telling her he would pay to fly her out to see him, the vacuum caused by her quick exit from the residence would implode your house. 

Continue working on you. Don't stop becoming the new man you want to be. Keep getting in shape and keep striving towards emotional independence. 

She saddled this bronc, and now she needs to ride it to the ground. You need to hold her feet to the fire and make her understand this problem she caused in the marriage is hers to fix. If she won't take the initiative, if she won't do the heavy lifting, then everything she says to you is pacification.


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## lordmayhem

Watch for any fishing. It could be anything from looking up his pictures or facebook page, or a simple "how are you?" text or email. NC means NC means NC.


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## Propwash72

I check up on her as best I can. I have her iPhone passcode, check her browser history, check the billing records, etc. Again, so far, so good, but I'd like a way to intercept her iMessage traffic without running the risk of her catching me with her phone. Any way I can do that?


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## stunned

Propwash72 said:


> I check up on her as best I can. I have her iPhone passcode, check her browser history, check the billing records, etc. Again, so far, so good, but I'd like a way to intercept her iMessage traffic without running the risk of her catching me with her phone. Any way I can do that?


Does she have an iPad also? If so, you can set them up to sync all messages (both iMessage and SMS), to it. Then if she's out with her phone, all her messages will appear on the iPad in real time.


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## Propwash72

stunned said:


> Does she have an iPad also? If so, you can set them up to sync all messages (both iMessage and SMS), to it. Then if she's out with her phone, all her messages will appear on the iPad in real time.


I have an iPad. I don't know if I could set up synch without tipping her off, though


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## Yeswecan

Propwash72 said:


> I have an iPad. I don't know if I could set up synch without tipping her off, though


There is a way to do this without the other knowing. It is set up within the desktop ipod/ipad/itunes program. It is some sort of parental feature. I have seen it work with a co-worker and their kids iphone. She sees all the texts as it happens. Her kid does not know.


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## shellgames

But I think each device gets an alert when a new device is adde to the Apple ID used. Just need to intercept that alert to clear it.


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## stunned

Yes, it will alert the phone when the sync is set up. If they are both running IOS8, then you can get non-iMessage texts also. 
The best time to do this might sometime late at night when she's asleep. You'll need her appleid and password also. 
The "catch" is that if she looks at the iPad, and looks at the messages there, she will know they are replicating. My wife has an iphone and ipad and i set up replication between them. She kinda asked about it, but since she knows nothing about technology, i told her that since they are both hers, using the same appleid, that's what it defaults to.


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## Propwash72

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. Quick update. I've stopped monitoring her texts and hassling her about OM. I was driving myself crazy with that, and I'm sure my focusing on OM was causing her to dig in. If she decides she wants to have a full-blown affair, I can't really do much to stop it. It'll make my decision on whether to stay with her a lot easier, though. The OM is not the root problem anyway, he's a symptom.

We started MC this week. We both like the therapist, and to her credit the W is engaged and enthusiastic about the process.

I have an appointment with an attorney tomorrow, just to consult on my rights and responsibilities, and the legal and financial ramifications if we do end up divorcing.

Still working on myself, getting ripped at the gym. I started to grow a beard. I've been clean-shaven all my life, but I looked in the mirror the other day and liked how I looked with some scruff. Didn't ask my wife first, just told her I was doing it. She likes the beard.

Anxiety is almost gone, thank God. I used to say I would never be the one to file for D. I don't mind being patient and giving her space to work through things, but now I can see a time where I'll decide enough limbo is enough and make the decision for her. I'd like to put her on notice that I won't put up with things the way they are indefinitely. Should I tell her that directly, or maybe bring it up in therapy if asked?

It's amazing. Even as hellish as this whole thing has been, I like myself a lot more than I dd a few months ago.


----------



## happyman64

Glad you are starting to like yourself propwash.

That is the key to being happy.

Hopefully you will see good things happen around you as a result of your new attitude and life changes.

And just maybe your wife will wakeup and realize just what she has in front of her.

You!

PS
Keep up the tough love and consequences for her crappy actions. Some spouses cannot let the past go even when it is for their own good.

I am married 23 years and understand meddling parents and inlaws. But if my wife ever held onto crappy feelings of injustice that long I would have taken off my belt and given her something else to think about as I treated her like the child she is.....


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## Propwash72

happyman64 said:


> Glad you are starting to like yourself propwash.
> 
> That is the key to being happy.
> 
> Hopefully you will see good things happen around you as a result of your new attitude and life changes.
> 
> And just maybe your wife will wakeup and realize just what she has in front of her.
> 
> You!
> 
> PS
> Keep up the tough love and consequences for her crappy actions. Some spouses cannot let the past go even when it is for their own good.
> 
> I am married 23 years and understand meddling parents and inlaws. But if my wife ever held onto crappy feelings of injustice that long I would have taken off my belt and given her something else to think about as I treated her like the child she is.....


Well said. I DO think she's being a total victim here vis a vis my parents. Of course, I can't really say that to her at the moment. My parents are toxic and I know that. Ironically my W and I are pretty much on the same page regarding them. I didn't handle them very well during our marriage, and I own that. But she's going to have to grow up and realize that a critical part of a long and happy marriage is forgiving your spouse of their inevitable failings.


----------



## Q tip

Still, keep an eye out for burner phone and behavioral changes.


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## turnera

Propwash72 said:


> I'd like to put her on notice that I won't put up with things the way they are indefinitely. Should I tell her that directly, or maybe bring it up in therapy if asked?


Most definitely bring this up in MC. They both need to know you're not just a doormat and there IS a timeline for her to get her act together.


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## happyman64

You mean you did not handle your parents early on in your marriage.

But you both realize they are toxic and handle them appropriately at this time????

When a spouse wants to find excuses to cheat or enter into some type of affair they make the issues in the marriage worse in their own minds to justify their affair.

It is as simple as that.

Do not let your wife use those "excuses" to excuse her own behavior.

What you see now is your wife is not only depressed because she lost her affair partner but she is most likely starting to realize that she made the marriage issues to be a lot worse than they really are.

Keep working on you Prop.

No matter what happens your will come out the other side of this mess a better man.

And just maybe your wife will have enough integrity to do the same, look at herself and correct the issues she finds lacking.

HM


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## Propwash72

Well said and thanks.

One of the biggest lessons I've learned over the last couple of months is that I'm not responsible for anyone's emotional state or choices but my own. I screwed up things in our marriage just as she did, but she was the one who chose to get entangled with OM and start wondering if she should walk away from the marriage. Once I took that lesson to heart, her attacks on my worth as a husband had a lot less effect.

I'm hoping during therapy she'll come to realize that our marriage issues are no worse than any other couples' and better than many.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. you are nowhere near out of the woods. If the OM called her tomorrow telling her he would pay to fly her out to see him, the vacuum caused by her quick exit from the residence would implode your house.
> 
> Continue working on you. Don't stop becoming the new man you want to be. Keep getting in shape and keep striving towards emotional independence.
> 
> She saddled this bronc, and now she needs to ride it to the ground. You need to hold her feet to the fire and make her understand this problem she caused in the marriage is hers to fix. If she won't take the initiative, if she won't do the heavy lifting, then everything she says to you is pacification.


C'mon Bandit. It isn't that bad. In fact I'd bet that if the OM called tomorrow she'd not agree to meet him. HE is no longer attractive to her.

I think that this has been an emotional affair, which I regard as less serious in this case. Yes, she'll have to deal with accepting the blame for the EA, but right now, thanks to the advice from you and others here the the OP followed she's hit a brick wall and is trying to figure out how she got into this awful mess in the first place.

Of course things may yet go belly up. But they have been breaking well for the OP. He's aware that bad things can happen (BTCH?) I think that what he needs from us in addition to warnings is a good bit of encouragement.


----------



## sidney2718

Propwash72 said:


> Well said and thanks.
> 
> One of the biggest lessons I've learned over the last couple of months is that I'm not responsible for anyone's emotional state or choices but my own. I screwed up things in our marriage just as she did, but she was the one who chose to get entangled with OM and start wondering if she should walk away from the marriage. Once I took that lesson to heart, her attacks on my worth as a husband had a lot less effect.
> 
> I'm hoping during therapy she'll come to realize that our marriage issues are no worse than any other couples' and better than many.


I understand what you are saying, but I think you said it wrong. You are right when you imply that she is 100% responsible for the OM, the emotional affair, and the garbage that came with it.

But you are to some extent responsible for her emotional state where that state has nothing to do with the affair. For instance, my wife was mistreated by my parents (not as badly as yours and your wife) and she has never forgotten it. We've been married for over 50 years and it will never go away. And yes, I should have done something about it back then, but I didn't.


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## manfromlamancha

So exactly how far had this EA gone ? What sort of things were being said by both of them ? Expressions of true and undying love? Sexual? Spouse bashing? Plans to hook up?

And in terms of timeline, how long did it take from initial meeting to first flirting? Expression of love? Sexual stuff? etc.


----------



## FYFY

not read the feedback to the end but am sure you are an extremely WEAK husband that feeds off your wife. The only reason u can condone this whole crap. You got an income? if not ,gird up for one and man up ASAP to the best advice of letting her know she is either IN or OUT with you.


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## Propwash72

manfromlamancha said:


> So exactly how far had this EA gone ? What sort of things were being said by both of them ? Expressions of true and undying love? Sexual? Spouse bashing? Plans to hook up?
> 
> And in terms of timeline, how long did it take from initial meeting to first flirting? Expression of love? Sexual stuff? etc.


From everything I can tell, the EA has really been pretty PG-rated. Their texting is flirty, but not overtly sexual, and most of that comes from him. No expressions of love, no spouse talk at all, no sexting, plans to hook up, etc. He lives 800 miles away, so it's not like they can just sneak off to a motel any time they want.

She's known him (through work) for almost a year. According to her the feelings for him appeared in the summer.

The damage this has done to our marriage is that he made her feel good, happy, sexy, etc. which I haven't done in a long time apparently. Now she wonders if she should run off and find someone more compatible for her than me, while she's still young. Our issues started long before OM showed up.


----------



## Propwash72

sidney2718 said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I think you said it wrong. You are right when you imply that she is 100% responsible for the OM, the emotional affair, and the garbage that came with it.
> 
> But you are to some extent responsible for her emotional state where that state has nothing to do with the affair. For instance, my wife was mistreated by my parents (not as badly as yours and your wife) and she has never forgotten it. We've been married for over 50 years and it will never go away. And yes, I should have done something about it back then, but I didn't.


That's true. I did set the stage for what she's feeling, but the choices she makes with those feelings are her responsibility alone.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Propwash72 said:


> From everything I can tell, the EA has really been pretty PG-rated. Their texting is flirty, but not overtly sexual, and most of that comes from him. No expressions of love, no spouse talk at all, no sexting, plans to hook up, etc. He lives 800 miles away, so it's not like they can just sneak off to a motel any time they want.
> 
> She's known him (through work) for almost a year. According to her the feelings for him appeared in the summer.
> 
> The damage this has done to our marriage is that he made her feel good, happy, sexy, etc. which I haven't done in a long time apparently. Now she wonders if she should run off and find someone more compatible for her than me, while she's still young. Our issues started long before OM showed up.


Understood. So while this appears tamer than I thought, what feelings for him did she have exactly ? She didn't love him or find him sexually attractive - he made her "feel good" about herself - friends can do this for you - not necessarily romantic friends. So what feelings did she confess to ?

I understand that the "problems" started before this and this kind of got her thinking about bailing on you - but that would be swapping one set of "normalish" marriage problems for another set. But this is not the same as cheating on you - is it ?


----------



## Propwash72

manfromlamancha said:


> Understood. So while this appears tamer than I thought, what feelings for him did she have exactly ? She didn't love him or find him sexually attractive - he made her "feel good" about herself - friends can do this for you - not necessarily romantic friends. So what feelings did she confess to ?
> 
> I understand that the "problems" started before this and this kind of got her thinking about bailing on you - but that would be swapping one set of "normalish" marriage problems for another set. But this is not the same as cheating on you - is it ?


She does admit to sexual attraction. She used to say that she was in love with him, but she's backed off on that. According to her, she now considers him just a friend, but one that she has a lot of chemistry with and she enjoys talking to. I don't necessarily believe this, but I just can't find any evidence otherwise. I know how quickly "just a friend' can turn into something else, so I still keep an eye on things.

It's a gray area. So far as I'm concerned, she hasn't done anything that I can't get past. To me it doesn't really cross the line into "cheating" until it gets physical or the talk gets overtly sexual or romantic. So by my definition, I have no evidence that she's cheated on me. I know that other people's definitions may vary.

The big problem I have with this whole thing is that it takes emotional energy away from our relationship. His marriage is apparently not that healthy either. While he is not the primary issue in our marriage, and she is not the primary issue in his, they are both contributing to each other's marriage issues. 

I've been 180ing with her, so I have not been challenging her much about this issue lately. I found that doing that just makes her dig in more. Marriage counseling is fair game, though, and it will be brought up in session.


----------



## ReidWright

Propwash72 said:


> She does admit to sexual attraction. She used to say that she was in love with him, but she's backed off on that.


yeah, I don't think that's something you can ever take back. 

"I'm in love with this sexy man who visits me at a hotel every few weeks!...never mind, I meant he's just a friend!"

ok.


----------



## lordmayhem

Propwash72 said:


> She does admit to sexual attraction. She used to say that she was in love with him, but she's backed off on that. According to her, she now considers him just a friend, but one that she has a lot of chemistry with and she enjoys talking to. I don't necessarily believe this, but I just can't find any evidence otherwise. I know how quickly "just a friend' can turn into something else, so I still keep an eye on things.
> 
> It's a gray area. So far as I'm concerned, she hasn't done anything that I can't get past. To me it doesn't really cross the line into "cheating" until it gets physical or the talk gets overtly sexual or romantic. So by my definition, I have no evidence that she's cheated on me. I know that other people's definitions may vary.
> 
> The big problem I have with this whole thing is that it takes emotional energy away from our relationship. His marriage is apparently not that healthy either. While he is not the primary issue in our marriage, and she is not the primary issue in his, they are both contributing to each other's marriage issues.
> 
> I've been 180ing with her, so I have not been challenging her much about this issue lately. *I found that doing that just makes her dig in more*. Marriage counseling is fair game, though, and it will be brought up in session.


In other words you won't be doing anything until she gets prego by the OM or worse. And she continues to disrespect the marriage and you setting boundaries and protecting your marriage makes her dig in more?

Absolutely no remorse or guilt for what she's doing and you're basically being passive about this. You're another one who thinks that MC is the magic bullet, well, it's not. MC is completely useless while an affair is still on. MC is only useful when the WS is truly remorseful and wants to save the marriage at all costs. She obviously isn't there at all. 

This is a slow motion train wreck. Not going to end well at all. Oh well, some people always have to learn the hard way. People here have been in your shoes and worse. 

But its your choice. I'm outtie.


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## Propwash72

ReidWright said:


> yeah, I don't think that's something you can ever take back.
> 
> "I'm in love this sexy man who visits me at a hotel every few weeks!...never mind, I meant he's just a friend!"
> 
> ok.


I didn't say I believed her, it's just that I can't find any evidence to the contrary.

Strange as this sounds, my primary concern any more is NOT to prevent or stop an affair. I'm past the "I want to work it out no matter what" stage. If she's the kind of person who's willing to cheat on me, then I no longer want her. I can't monitor her 24/7. She has ample opportunity to cheat if she wants. She always has and always will. She's just never given me reason to mistrust her before now. Not once in 19 years.

If she cheats on me, I will file for divorce myself.

If she does this fence-sitting of hers ("I don't know where I belong in life") too long, then I'll make the decision for her and pull the trigger myself. The only thing I haven't decided is how long I'm willing to wait. It may be that when I get to the end of my rope, I'll know it.

Outside of those two conditions, if she wants to continue MC and continue working on our marriage, then I'll continue with her.


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## Propwash72

lordmayhem said:


> In other words you won't be doing anything until she gets prego by the OM or worse. /QUOTE]
> 
> Well, if she turns up pregnant, that'll pretty much be a smoking gun, seeing as how I had a vasectomy 10 years ago.
> 
> There's clear boundaries, she just hasn't quite reached them. Yet.


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## bandit.45

sidney2718 said:


> C'mon Bandit. It isn't that bad. In fact I'd bet that if the OM called tomorrow she'd not agree to meet him. HE is no longer attractive to her.
> 
> I think that this has been an emotional affair, which I regard as less serious in this case. Yes, she'll have to deal with accepting the blame for the EA, but right now, thanks to the advice from you and others here the the OP followed she's hit a brick wall and is trying to figure out how she got into this awful mess in the first place.
> 
> Of course things may yet go belly up. But they have been breaking well for the OP. He's aware that bad things can happen (BTCH?) I think that what he needs from us in addition to warnings is a good bit of encouragement.


Well, I don't agree. You would be surprised how fast these EAs escalate into PA, and then how LONG it takes for the WS to get over the affair. 

My concern is that she will attempt to take the affair underground. We've seen it many many times.


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## manfromlamancha

If she was in love with him and was sexually attracted to him, the chances are high that she still is. I agree with Bandit in that she could just as easily take this underground and you would never know.

I, like you, don't completely believe that she has "suddenly" fallen out of love with him and has lost her sexual attraction to him.

The fact that she still sees him as a "friend" is a huge red flag so beware! So is the fact that she says he is a friend with whom she has "a lot of chemistry" and enjoys being with, talking to etc. Anyway, opposite sex friends don't really exist unless one of them is gay.

So you still have much to be careful about and to also investigate in stealth mode further. This may be far from over. The fact that she still thinks things are broken down in your marriage may be her way of justifying to herself a decision to continue with the affair and take it underground. Be very careful and alert here.


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## shellgames

Same thing was said to me about remaining friends, chemistry, etc. affair is underground and continuing.


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## Q tip

Propwash72 said:


> lordmayhem said:
> 
> 
> 
> In other words you won't be doing anything until she gets prego by the OM or worse. /QUOTE]
> 
> Well, if she turns up pregnant, that'll pretty much be a smoking gun, seeing as how I had a vasectomy 10 years ago.
> 
> There's clear boundaries, she just hasn't quite reached them. Yet.
> 
> 
> 
> She has boundaries? Oh. Why are your here then. All is well.
> 
> /snark off
Click to expand...


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

Q tip said:


> Propwash72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> She has boundaries? Oh. Why are your here then. All is well.
> 
> /snark off
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe they're on a Canadian football field.
> 
> They're a little bigger then the grid-irons here in the states.
Click to expand...


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## happyman64

You know what is really sad Prop.

Not only are your wife's actions denying you a happy, loving, monogamous relationship but her actions are short changing herself from that same happy, loving, monogamous relationship.

If my wife ever came home and told me "I have feelings for another man" I would pack her a bag, open the door, kiss her goodbye and wish her good luck."

Why?

Because no matter how you look at it two things have happened.

1. Your wife opened herself up to that OM. She could have kept the relationship business like or friendly. Not intimate. She put herself out there.

2. She could have come to you and said I love you but I am not happy. Happy with herself or with the marriage does not really matter.

She could have come to you to work on the marriage. She did not. Instead she did number 1.

That is a selfish act. She disregards all of your feelings to feed hers.
That is hurtful but worse disrespectful.

She could be happy. Happy with herself. Happy with you. But instead she chose the selfish options to be happy with someone else.

She needs a good kick. I hope you give it to her.

HM


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## Propwash72

happyman64 said:


> You know what is really sad Prop.
> 
> Not only are your wife's actions denying you a happy, loving, monogamous relationship but her actions are short changing herself from that same happy, loving, monogamous relationship.
> 
> If my wife ever came home and told me "I have feelings for another man" I would pack her a bag, open the door, kiss her goodbye and wish her good luck."
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because no matter how you look at it two things have happened.
> 
> 1. Your wife opened herself up to that OM. She could have kept the relationship business like or friendly. Not intimate. She put herself out there.
> 
> 2. She could have come to you and said I love you but I am not happy. Happy with herself or with the marriage does not really matter.
> 
> She could have come to you to work on the marriage. She did not. Instead she did number 1.
> 
> That is a selfish act. She disregards all of your feelings to feed hers.
> That is hurtful but worse disrespectful.
> 
> She could be happy. Happy with herself. Happy with you. But instead she chose the selfish options to be happy with someone else.
> 
> She needs a good kick. I hope you give it to her.
> 
> HM


You're right. She IS being selfish now. No matter the mistakes I've made in the past, she's the one who ultimately decided to get entangled with OM.

Here's why I haven't sent her packing yet.

1. I have zero evidence that whatever "relationship" they had is more than a few flirty texts. I don't blame someone for their feelings, I only hold them responsible for their actions. So far as I can divine, she hasn't done anything that I can't get past. I realize that everyone has different boundaries where this is concerned. The OM did NOT cause our core issues. 

2. She DID come to me and tell me that she loves me but is unhappy. That story has not changed since day 1. 

3. She is actively and enthusiastically participating in MC and working with me on our relationship. 

4. When all is said and done, if our marriage does ultimately fail, the only thing I want is to be able to look myself and my children in the eye and say I did everything I could (within the bounds of my self-respect).

Obviously if I run across any information that contradicts item 1, that'll change the game immensely. There's at least a couple of scenarios where I'll pull the trigger on the marriage, she just hasn't reached them yet.


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## NoChoice

Prop,
Feelings are only pertinent when acted upon. We all have feelings that ebb and flow throughout our lives. We "feel" this way or that way about various circumstances and people as we traverse this path of life. It's how we handle and deal with those feelings that can be the problem. Some have to be squelched and overcome by logic and reason and when they are not they become problematic. She is not dealing with her feelings in a rational manner and is allowing her feelings to control her instead of the other way around. it really is a simple matter of self control. She has too little.


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## Propwash72

NoChoice said:


> Prop,
> Feelings are only pertinent when acted upon. We all have feelings that ebb and flow throughout our lives. We "feel" this way or that way about various circumstances and people as we traverse this path of life. It's how we handle and deal with those feelings that can be the problem. Some have to be squelched and overcome by logic and reason and when they are not they become problematic. She is not dealing with her feelings in a rational manner and is allowing her feelings to control her instead of the other way around. it really is a simple matter of self control. She has too little.


My point exactly. She is a very emotionally-driven person; always has been. I've said several times over the course of our marriage that she allows her feelings to rule over her head. As I said in my previous posts, I don't hold her repsonsible for her feelings, but I do hold her repsonsible for her actions. Her actions with OM, as disrespectful and selfish as they are, have not yet risen to the point that I consider it unrecoverable. There's been plenty of times I've been disrespectful and selfish to her too, those times just didn't involve an outside person.


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