# 4 years in and no ring... what now?



## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

This is my first post.

I have been with my BF for over 4 years and yet he hasn't proposed. I made it very clear to him a couple years ago that I wasn't going to be that woman that waits 5 years to get married to someone and now I find myself in that place. 

He and I have both been married before so this isn't our first time around. We don't have any other issues, but I personally need that lifelong commitment from him. I am starting to get to the point of whether or not I should stay in this relationship if my needs aren't being met.

Any solid advice is very much appreciated.
Thanks


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you know the answer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are the two of you living together?

How old are both of you?

I agree with JLD. You know the answer. It's time to move on. Don't give him the marry me or I'm leaving ultimatum. Just move on.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

I wouldn't be on this site if I knew the answer.

When you spend this much time together you build a life together. Our kids are very connected, he has two and I have two. We have an entire household that we have built together. If I leave it would almost be like getting a divorce, division of property, etc.

Do I just remain happy but without a commitment?


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

If it is a deal breaker to you, then you know what to do. 

You can't force him to marry you and if you guilt him into it, the marriage will more than likely end in divorce anyway. 

Do what YOU need to do to be happy. He will do what HE needs to do to be happy.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

He is 50 and I am 38.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

What is his view on marriage? Was he screwed over in divorce? What is his reaction when you bring it up?


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

He says he wants to marry me but doesn't act on his words. His divorce was hell but that was back in 2009, and I always remind him that I am not her. 

I am the only family he has. He has one brother that is 15 years older than him that lives in Europe and that is it. I am all he has in states besides his two teenage children that barely share a relationship with him anyway.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ok so he says he wants to but doesn't follow through. So what does he say his concerns are..you'll change, sharing financial, different outlooks on life? Unless your saying he is a liar then if he says he wants marriage but isn't following through he must be scared of something


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I think that part of the issue is that you have given him mixed messages. 

On the one hand you told him that marriage is so important to you that you require that you be married within x years.

On the other hand you have formed what looks like a permanent relationship without the commitment of marriage.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

Well he talks about how his ex changed over time... but again I remind him I am not her.

Financially we have both agreed that a prenup is essential.

We seem to be on the same path. We are both very supportive of each others careers (surgeon&attorney), we enjoy the same hobbies, we like being in each others company..... it is just this one step that I need him to take and yet he hasn't taken it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

The change over time thing is a big concern I can relate to. Their is a famous saying that I have found to be true...you don't divorce the person you married. My x wife doesn't even resemble the sweet girl I met at 16. Like a totally different person. So I can relate 100%. This is the one thing that MAY hold me back from ever getting married again.

Ok so he has a concern about you changing. Is he willing to go to premarital counseling? It can help and comfort to verbally get on the same page about all aspects of the marriage.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

I agree with Elegirl. You have given him the benefit of marriage without the commitment. Why should he commit when he's already getting everything he wants in the permanent relationship?

Also, do you really want to wait around for someone who won't even put a ring on it after 4 years? If so, that's your cup of tea. My first proposal was after a year & a half. With my husband, we had dated a year on & off in school, then when we got back together after high school, it was 2 weeks later.

Men will let you know if they're crazy about you and want to be with you forever pretty quickly.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

He calls counselors "quacks" lol

Just stuck in whether to jump ship and rebuild or keep things the way they are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

truthitis2u said:


> *He calls counselors "quacks" *lol
> 
> Just stuck in whether to jump ship and rebuild or keep things the way they are.


Red flag.

Have you asked him why?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I agree with Elegirl. You have given him the benefit of marriage without the commitment. Why should he commit when he's already getting everything he wants in the permanent relationship?
> 
> Also, do you really want to wait around for someone who won't even put a ring on it after 4 years? If so, that's your cup of tea. My first proposal was after a year & a half. With my husband, we had dated a year on & off in school, then when we got back together after high school, it was 2 weeks later.
> 
> Men will let you know if they're crazy about you and want to be with you forever pretty quickly.


Not always that easy depending on your past experiences


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

truthitis2u said:


> He calls counselors "quacks" lol
> 
> Just stuck in whether to jump ship and rebuild or keep things the way they are.


Well then seems like you have done all you can to this point. Only thing left to do is tell him this is a deal breaker for you and he will have to make a decision in, insert whatever number of days weeks or months you choose, and then let him make his decision. Then you have to make yours. I hope he will come around but doesn't look good when he dismisses counselors like that


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

He is a doctor himself so thinks counselors don't have a clue what they are talking about. It is very common in the medical field that certain fields are considered subpar (psychiatrist, pediatricians, etc). I don't feel that way but its something he feels very strongly about.

I am not the kind of woman that thinks a man "should just know what I am thinking" so I tell him how I feel and he listens. It just doesn't seem to strike the right cord with him that I am serious.


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## Buildingblocks (Apr 22, 2012)

@OP please don't take this the wrong way but men i general who have been burned by divorce before are more likely to never forget.

Also in today's legal environment a prenup would be thrown out by the judge especially as more laws favor women today over a man. 

He might be skeptical of all these things running through his head. But lastly talk to him and allay his fears and in the end its love & compassion between you two that will eventually be the deciding factor for your future marriage.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

How important is it to you? 

If you want marriage tell him that. And ask him to marry YOU. It seems you're waiting on him to pop the question. If this is what you want, go after it. Make a date for a fall wedding.

If he says no, are you prepared to walk away? 38 is pretty young to be stuck not getting what you want out of life.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Buildingblocks said:


> @OP please don't take this the wrong way but men i general who have been burned by divorce before are more likely to never forget.
> 
> Also in today's legal environment a prenup would be thrown out by the judge especially as more laws favor women today over a man.
> 
> He might be skeptical of all these things running through his head. But lastly talk to him and allay his fears and in the end its love & compassion between you two that will eventually be the deciding factor for your future marriage.


Laws today do not favor women over men. The laws are writing to be gender neutral. The provide support for the lower earning spouse in a long term marriage. More and more this support is rehabilitative, not long term. They also are written to preserve the status quo for children. So if one parent has always been the primary care taker for the children, that parent is more likely to get a higher % of physical custody. Child support is based on % of physical custody and % of each spouse's income.

For all we know the OP earns more than her husband. They have no children together so child support is not an issue. At their ages it probably never will be.

He’s 50. So him paying her spousal support is highly unlikely since by the time they have a long term marriage, he’ll be retired.


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## Buildingblocks (Apr 22, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Laws today do not favor women over men. The laws are writing to be gender neutral.
> *Nope they aren't. Child custody goes mostly to women. There are changes being made to make it more equal now though. It will take time.*
> 
> The provide support for the lower earning spouse in a long term marriage. More and more this support is rehabilitative, not long term.
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Buildingblocks said:


> Nope they aren't. Child custody goes mostly to women. There are changes being made to make it more equal now though. It will take time.


Mothers usually get more custody because mothers are usually the primary care giver before the divorce. 



Buildingblocks said:


> They are archaic and you see more and more states are throwing out alimony. I can understand division of half the property but spousal support is ridiculous.


Really? You think that it’s ok for a woman (or man) to spent decades as a SAHM/W/H with their spouse's agreement.. then they can just dump the SAH with no way to support herself/himself?




Buildingblocks said:


> Tell that to all the good men you have been burned hoping for equality. Specially OP's boyfriend who had been burned before.


When I divorced my son’s father he made out like a fat cat because I was the primary income earner. The laws are gender natural. 


EleGirl said:


> For all we know the OP earns more than her husband.





Buildingblocks said:


> Then i wonder why she said,"she needs a long term commitment".


Wow… you interpret a long term commitment to equal money to women?

She’s an attorney. He’s a doctor. There is a possibility that she earns as much or more than he does. 

A life-long commitment is an emotional need for some people so that they feel emotionally safe.




Buildingblocks said:


> I'm not here to argue. I'm just telling what might be going in his head and they have a marriage in the future then i'm all for it.


 My reply was to point out that every situation is unique. Just throwing out arguments that do not even apply in this case is not all that helpful.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

ariel_angel77 said:


> I agree with Elegirl. You have given him the benefit of marriage without the commitment. Why should he commit when he's already getting everything he wants in the permanent relationship?


I really hate this kind of thinking, because it sounds straight out of the 1800s. First of all, they do have a commitment, just not on a legal piece of paper. And she's also been getting all the benefits of it without the marriage license. In a healthy relationship, the train doesn't only travel one way. 

truthitis2u,

This might sound like strange advice on a marriage site (and coming from a happily married guy) but ask yourself what do you need the legal commitment for, anyway? Financial security? 

From his point of view, financial security for you through marriage could be financial insecurity for him. There should be another compromise available, here, such as a trust fund or setting up life insurance. 

I think many women focus a bit too much on the ring, when it's not really going to change their situation. And men simply don't think it's that important. Many girls dream about their wedding day since they were very young, but I guarantee you that scant few boys do so. If you give him a marriage ultimatum, he might go through with it, but his heart might not be truly in it. 

If you need marriage for religious or social reasons, I can understand that to a certain extent. But my point is that before you make ultimatums or walk away from this relationship, you should evaluate what are your real reasons for wanting marriage in the first place.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

truthitis2u said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I have been with my BF for over 4 years and yet he hasn't proposed. I made it very clear to him a couple years ago that I wasn't going to be that woman that waits 5 years to get married to someone and now I find myself in that place.


My advice would be to tell him that you don't feel comfortable continuing the relationship without marriage. You can remind him that you made it clear at the start of the relationship that you wanted to be married. 

If I understand correctly, you live together? This was your first mistake. It is not too late to correct it, however.

If he really loves you and doesn't want to lose you, he will agree and set a date. If not, I really think you should move on, or at least start living in separate houses. You want a man to be totally head over heels about you and ready to do ANYTHING to keep you. Otherwise, frankly, it's just not worth it. Everyone deserves to be "the one".


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

You both have been divorced. You both have kids. You both have careers. You say you've built a house together. You have been together 4 years. Neither of you are kids at this point.

It sounds like other than this issue things are good.

Why then is this so important to you ? Why is having a marriage contract issued by the govt. necessary at this point in your lives. How will this prove he loves / cares about you more ?


Why is what you already have not enough ?


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

Ok, first off I make more than him so the financial side of the house is fine. Prenups have evolved over time and I will tell you that I would be at more of a risk than he is but that is not what this is about. 

I am past the age of wanting some ridiculous wedding or fairy tale ending. I simply want the commitment that I was raised to believe whole heartedly in. 

And to those who think all laws are gender biased, let me just say I got royally screwed in my divorce and I pay my ex alimony and child support. So if anyone should be bitter, it is me.

Yet through it all I still believe in the sanctity of marriage.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> I am not the kind of woman that thinks a man "should just know what I am thinking" so I tell him how I feel and he listens. It just doesn't seem to strike the right cord with him that I am serious.


I don't believe he will think you are serious unless you back up what you say with action. Apparently he knows you want to get married. He agrees with you, in theory. But there is no follow through.

Forget talking. Look at his actions. And, if you really want to get married, follow through with YOUR own actions.

Making a statement as to what you want with no consequences is empty.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Buildingblocks said:


> @OP please don't take this the wrong way but men i general who have been burned by divorce before are more likely to never forget.
> 
> *Also in today's legal environment a prenup would be thrown out by the judge especially as more laws favor women today over a man.
> *
> He might be skeptical of all these things running through his head. But lastly talk to him and allay his fears and in the end its love & compassion between you two that will eventually be the deciding factor for your future marriage.


This really can be varied from state to state and jurisdiction to jursidiction. Prenups in colorado are pretty iron clad unless you can prove intoxication or duress in signing, this is why having it done by a third party lawyer is advised. I recognize some places are far less fair than this and had a good friend of mine totally get railed in divorce court in another state.

Custody can lean slightly toward mothers here but fathers are rarely denied any custody. Least here.. So their are ways to protect yourself from ridiculuious alimony payment and your financial assets here.....it's your heart that has no protection. 

Men and women who got screwed in their first marriage emotionally will have to at some point take a leap of faith for a second go around. Some can make the leap others can't. Still don't have the answer on that one for myself.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that part of the issue is that you have given him mixed messages.
> 
> On the one hand you told him that marriage is so important to you that you require that you be married within x years.
> 
> On the other hand you have formed what looks like a permanent relationship without the commitment of marriage.


I agree with this.
You are already _his wife_ , without the legal commitment.

I see it as a dishonest move on his part. Seems like you fulfilled your part and he didn't fulfill his.

I think the relevant question is ,what are you going to do about it?

You sound as if you think you don't have options , but it's time to think differently , and to let him know that you're examining your options.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

I think after seeing some of the opinions on here that I basically just need to look at it differently. Maybe its time to go on a vacation by myself. Then he will get the time to think things over without me. Maybe a little space for both of us will make him rethink things.


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## Cooper (Apr 18, 2008)

Space and time apart are not going to solve this issue, you two need to sit down and hash this out. 

If after four years you are still just hoping he is going to pop the question you may be waiting forever. You two have been living together and have built a life together. I bet to him it's a perfectly comfortable life, a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to him. 

But it does to you, and it sounds like it means a great deal to you. I think out of respect for you and the life you have together if you need to be married he should be willing to do that. 

If you have talked the marriage idea to death and he's just being lazy about it take the initiative and tell him you are going to start planning the wedding, he's either on board or not. And if he starts putting the brakes on then you need to make a decision.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I dunno... If he wanted to be married to you, he would have made it happen already. Why would you want to "force" him into something like that? 

Decide if it's a deal breaker for you or not. If it is, then start preparing yourself to move on. Separate bank accounts, line up a place to leave, whatever. If he clues in and wants to change, then you can decide if that's acceptable.

If it's not a deal breaker, look at individual counselling to help you deal with your disappointment, if you can't get over it yourself. 

C


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Since we were all bickering about the so called gender neutrality in laws and divorce, and who should feel bitter and the old fashion gender crap, here is a thought:

Why don't you propose to him? 

It has been 4 years. Propose.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Would you rather live without him in your life if he doesn't want to get married? How would you feel about breaking up with him? Because that's what you're talking about if marriage is a deal-breaker for you. You would break up and you would then probably want to find someone else to be the man in your life. Are you ok with moving on from him?


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## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

1.) Marriage laws ARE NOT neutral. They are designed to favor woman. There are some exceptions with the woman being more dominant, but generally speaking, it is more than 50% of women who are the primary care taker and making the lesser amount of money. Majority = women win, minority = men win. There is no middle ground. Just because as a woman, you were burned before, doesn't mean 50/50. You are 1 out 10000000000000000000

2.) Ask yourself this question; "how long did it take him to propose to his ex." That will answer your question. If it was anything less than 4 years, then he felt something for her more than he feels for you.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> Since we were all bickering about the so called gender neutrality in laws and divorce, and who should feel bitter and the old fashion gender crap, here is a thought:
> 
> Why don't you propose to him?
> 
> It has been 4 years. Propose.


Certainly hadn't considered that......not the worse idea in the world. What do you think about giving this a try OP?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> Well he talks about how his ex changed over time... but again I remind him I am not her.
> 
> Financially we have both agreed that a prenup is essential.
> 
> We seem to be on the same path. We are both very supportive of each others careers (surgeon&attorney), we enjoy the same hobbies, we like being in each others company..... it is just this one step that I need him to take and yet he hasn't taken it.


My wife and I lived together for over 7 years. We got along great in all areas except sex... I was OK with that because everything else was fine. 

Soon after we married, things did change. We both got lazy. She decided to take a job in another city, so we moved... We grew so far apart and we will never be like we were when we first met...

My wife and I were monogamous and committed to each other when we were just living together. We didn't need to be married... My wife never pushed marriage. It wasn't a deal breaker.


Is a ring that important to you? 

Do you feel a ring is necessary to stay committed?

with the age difference, as a man, i would be concerned that a woman your age would lose the desire for a man that much older...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Why don't you propose to him?
> 
> It has been 4 years. Propose.


Never looked at it that way. 
Buy I might be a good idea.

Propose to him and see what he will say.

It might be a good way non confrontational way to open up the conversation.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

Is he a good man? Does he treat you well? Do you feel loved? Can you picture your life without him? How would the kids feel if he was no longer a part of their lives?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> Maybe its time to go on a vacation by myself. Then he will get the time to think things over without me. Maybe a little space for both of us will make him rethink things.


Uh, nope ... don't think so. You are avoidant. Numerous posters have asked you directly why you want to be legally married. But you don't answer directly.

Okay, you were raised to believe in commitment and the sanctity of marriage.

That's all well and good, but you have been waiting for the commitment you desire for FOUR years. 

You bring it up, and he gives you a response that makes you back off for awhile. If hashing this over ad nauseum is not working, I don't think a vacation alone is going to change things either.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> Ok, first off I make more than him so the financial side of the house is fine. Prenups have evolved over time and I will tell you that I would be at more of a risk than he is but that is not what this is about.
> 
> I am past the age of wanting some ridiculous wedding or fairy tale ending. I simply want the commitment that I was raised to believe whole heartedly in.
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying about wanting the commitment of marriage.

To be honest I'm more than surprised at the comments you're getting here that are basically saying that marriage means nothing as though your desire for a commitment trough marriage is unreasonable. There are many benefits to being married from the knowledge that the person you love making a strong, public commitment to all kinds of laws/benefits that are only given to married people.

If marriage has no social and legal benefits, why are the GL community so adamant about gaining the right to same sex marriage? Take a look at the list of benefits of marriage that they use in their arguments for their right to marriage. Do those things mean anything to you, for him and for you?

For example, if he gets ill, who will be advocating for him? Will it be the children who he does not have good relationships with? Will it be you, the woman who loves him and will be taking care of him when he's ill? From what I've seen, it's not hard for his children to get a medical power of attorney thrown out because you are not a real relative. This is just one item.

If you fall ill, who do you want to advocate for you?

Marriage binds you two together as one legal entity. It makes a real difference.


.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Since we were all bickering about the so called gender neutrality in laws and divorce, and who should feel bitter and the old fashion gender crap, here is a thought:
> 
> Why don't you propose to him?
> 
> It has been 4 years. Propose.


:iagree:

If you truly want the marriage, then propose to him yourself. 

Going on a vacation alone isn't going to magically make him propose. If he hasn't done it by now, I doubt it will happen any time soon, if ever.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The only choice you have is to decide what day you will leave him if he hasn't proposed. And then you must leave.

If he begs you to return you have another problem. A ring after leaving is a reaction, not an action. You will not have a man who asked you to marry on his own steam. You would have forced it.

My feeling is you leave and stay gone.

I agree that most therapists and not very talented. But there are a few that are great. Same for psychiatrists. Many just do med checks and take in the bucks. Others are excellent DOCTORS who understand much more about pharmaceuticals than the average practicing doctor, though they both prescribe them.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

Well I obviously stirred the pot with a few of you. Since I am an attorney I do understand all the benefits that come from marriage on the legal front, but I am looking at this in no matter what anyone says, we all have our essential needs in life. We don't have to answer anyone to why they are our needs, just that it is what is expected. Marriage is a need for me when it comes to being in a committed relationship. 

I am not going to propose to him because I think that also will make him feel forced into marriage. He knows what I want and he will either get his act together or lose out.

I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely will have to give this a lot of further thought. Right now, I am thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I completely understand how you feel about marriage. I too had that requirement once I'd decided I wanted to settle down. I didn't even bother dating a guy for two years because I didn't feel that real and tangible connection with anyone. Then DH came along and we were married in a year. It wasn't about the marriage so much as the idea of a lifelong partner. I was looking for someone who would be with me forever. That marriage certificate was the only way I knew how separate the chaff from the wheat at that stage of my life. You have grown beyond this now.

You both had that once and you both chose the wrong partners or didn't work on that commitment enough to keep it. Marriage is no longer a 'forever' thing for people who have thrown in the towel, in reality, it's just a piece of paper. Don't take this as an attack or a criticism, because I really feel that everyone makes mistakes and that is part of life, but holding onto the idea that you need a marriage to have lifelong commitment is no longer relevant here. I think you need to move on from this idea because I would bet that he has. I can't hold that against him, and I really don't think you should.

If you really felt the sort of love for him that meant he was the man to marry, a piece of paper wouldn't rip you apart.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> Well I obviously stirred the pot with a few of you.


Nah. I've seen the pot go beyond the boiling point on TAM. You brought up your reasons for wanting marriage. People gave their opinions. Take what you need and leave the rest. 



truthitis2u said:


> ... no matter what anyone says, we all have our essential needs in life. We don't have to answer anyone to why they are our needs ...


Then why ask the question, "what now?" People are asking why you need to get married, beyond your basic belief in the sanctity, because you posted. Nothing more than trying to get more background as to why you think you may feel more of a need for marriage than him.



truthitis2u said:


> Marriage is a need for me when it comes to being in a committed relationship.


That's fine. Did you feel from the get-go that you wanted marriage with this man. I don't mean the first few months of passion, but I mean after you two had been together for longer than one year? 



truthitis2u said:


> I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.


Yes, love is a powerful force. But I want you to understand that this is the internet. Nobody is giving you the third degree. They merely want answers to their questions. And if you don't like the answers, don't ask the questions. 

Do you have an idea as to what ultimatum you may give yourself?

Seriously.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

truthitis2u said:


> Marriage is a need for me when it comes to being in a committed relationship.


You realize that marriage is just a piece of paper right? Meaning pretty much nothing in terms of how he conducts his life. 
I know someone at school who is married. To a loser. That lives in SC. That does nothing. And pays her nothing. 
Marriage doesn't promise anything. 
Except the promise of large legal bills and lawyers to kill it. 


> I am not going to propose to him because I think that also will make him feel forced into marriage. He knows what I want and he will either get his act together or lose out.


So you won't propose to him because you don't want to force him. 
But you want to force him to propose to you on an exact date, otherwise, you'll leave? 

How the HELL is that any different?!?


> I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely will have to give this a lot of further thought. Right now, I am thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.


Again, I fail to see the difference about what I pointed out above. 

You know, you're a lawyer. You know that women want to be treated equally everywhere they go. 
Except when it comes to romance. They expect men to ask them out, men to pay for their dates, men to freaking propose and buy the thousand dollar hunk of carbon that sits on your finger. 
Where is your equality in that? 

Why can't you propose? Because you were raised in the 'sanctity of marriage' and 100% believe that only men can propose? 

It doesn't sound like he wants to get married. He is just happy as a clam with the status quo. 

You have two options at this point. Propose, or get out, because he sure isn't going to.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Men not marrying? How deep does "the problem" go? - YouTube

Circumcision, Divorce and Male Disposability - Paul Elam on Freedomain Radio - YouTube


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Another great one
Divorce: What They Aren't Telling You! - YouTube


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Marriage is far more than "just a piece of paper". 

Marriage was very important to me too OP, so I completely understand where you're coming from. I think there's always 2 camps in this argument, we'll never 'get' their point of view and they'll never 'get' ours. And that's ok.

My husband mentioned 5 years as a timeline to marriage when we were dating. I told him there was no way I was waiting 5 years, and I was not going to be a 5 year girlfriend. Over the next few weeks he rethought things on his own volition, and came back to me with 2 years - fair enough I thought. Just over 2 years after our first date we were married 

I think all you can do is have a heart to heart with him, without giving ultimatums...and simply lay it all out there. Tell him how important being married to HIM is to you and that his ambivalence to it has caused you to feel uncertain about your future together. Then shut up and let him speak. 

This is too important to ignore, speak to him - soon.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

I don't understand why people try to push their belief system on someone else. For all of you who think marriage is just a piece of paper, there are just as many who don't feel that way. OP has said she believes in the sanctity of marriage. So do I. I believe in it for religious and secular reasons. I actually think it is important for the fabric of oru society and that living together weakens that fabric considerably. The "liberal" view is now marriage is not necessary. But some of you are just as narrow minded in your "liberal" views as conservatives, because you try to convince someone who WANTS marriage that it means nothing. Obviously it means something to her.


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

truthitis2u said:


> Well I obviously stirred the pot with a few of you. Since I am an attorney I do understand all the benefits that come from marriage on the legal front, but I am looking at this in no matter what anyone says, we all have our essential needs in life. We don't have to answer anyone to why they are our needs, just that it is what is expected. Marriage is a need for me when it comes to being in a committed relationship.
> 
> I am not going to propose to him because I think that also will make him feel forced into marriage. He knows what I want and he will either get his act together or lose out.
> 
> I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely will have to give this a lot of further thought. Right now, I am thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.


"Get his act together"?
It sounds to me like he already has is "act togehter" by knowing that getting married again is not something he wants to subject himself to again.......and you are not the exception.

He will not be "losing out" - there is an endless supply of middle aged, divorced, professionaly employed women out there seeking another Mr Right for him to be with.

This man does not want to marry you - if he did he already would have asked. 

Get over it and move on.


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## Counterfit (Feb 2, 2014)

truthitis2u said:


> Well I obviously stirred the pot with a few of you. Since I am an attorney I do understand all the benefits that come from marriage on the legal front, but I am looking at this in no matter what anyone says, we all have our essential needs in life. We don't have to answer anyone to why they are our needs, just that it is what is expected. Marriage is a need for me when it comes to being in a committed relationship.
> 
> I am not going to propose to him because I think that also will make him feel forced into marriage. He knows what I want and he will either get his act together or lose out.
> 
> I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely will have to give this a lot of further thought. Right now, I am thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.





committed4ever said:


> I don't understand why people try to push their belief system on someone else. For all of you who think marriage is just a piece of paper, there are just as many who don't feel that way. OP has said she believes in the sanctity of marriage. So do I. I believe in it for religious and secular reasons. I actually think it is important for the fabric of oru society and that living together weakens that fabric considerably. The "liberal" view is now marriage is not necessary. But some of you are just as narrow minded in your "liberal" views as conservatives, because you try to convince someone who WANTS marriage that it means nothing. Obviously it means something to her.


OH Please....The original poster is divorced as is the man she is trying to get to marry her.......so much for her belief in the "Sanctity of Marriage". They both come from FAILED Marriages. 

He does not want to get burned again.......good for him.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> He says he wants to marry me but doesn't act on his words. His divorce was hell but that was back in 2009, and I always remind him that I am not her.
> 
> I am the only family he has. He has one brother that is 15 years older than him that lives in Europe and that is it. I am all he has in states besides his two teenage children that barely share a relationship with him anyway.





EleGirl said:


> I get what you are saying about wanting the commitment of marriage.
> 
> To be honest I'm more than surprised at the comments you're getting here that are basically saying that marriage means nothing as though your desire for a commitment trough marriage is unreasonable. There are many benefits to being married from the knowledge that the person you love making a strong, public commitment to all kinds of laws/benefits that are only given to married people.
> 
> ...


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Truth-

I know eventually I will be D myself... I am not to far away from 50 myself... Even if I hooked up with a hot 38 year old proffessional indepdndant woman, I don't think I would marry... I don't even know if I would want to live together...

I would be committed though if she was... I wouldn't have to be married and I wouldn't have to live with her...

Marriage doesn't guarantee faithfullness and a commitment.....Marriage is about control. People change once the ring goes on.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Trickster said:


> Truth-
> 
> I know eventually I will be D myself... I am not to far away from 50 myself... Even if I hooked up with a hot 38 year old proffessional indepdndant woman, I don't think I would marry... I don't even know if I would want to live together...
> 
> ...


This is interesting
Home | Divorce Corp


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think what people are missing here is the point that yes, a marriage certificate really is just a piece of paper. We developed marriage as a way of encompassing an 'ideal'. That ideal of two people who have/will mate for life. When they say that two animals, for example wolves, have mated for life, we do not doubt their commitment to each other because they lacked a ceremony and a white dress and a signature on a piece of paper. For people, we develop and throw away relationships easily, but 'marriage' is meant to say, "this is my life mate".

As young people we use marriage as a tool to help us choose the mate we want for life. If he/she doesn't want to marry, we therefore see the relationship as a temporary thing, "oh, we will have to continue looking". But it's not the marriage that keeps two people together, it's the people who do this, through thick and thin, they made a commitment and they stick to it. It's the commitment to each other that is what makes it real.

If a person truly wants to mate for life to one person, and uses marriage as a tool to gauge their own and their partners commitment to each other, that is fine, but when they've used this tool and it didn't help them the first time in making the right choice, it is not necessarily going to work a 2nd or 3rd time, or however many times they try to use it. It's time to stop fumbling in the dark and hoping the word will help you make the right choice. It's time to look deeper.

Look beyond the word, look beyond everyone else's idea of what it means and focus on what it was created or developed to achieve. We didn't and don't always need that ceremony to tell us what we should already know deep down. Is this the person who I want to spend the rest of my life with? Can I see us growing old together, loving and enjoying our lives together? Is it the people or the ceremony that make a life match work?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

truthitis2u said:


> Ok, first off* I make more than him *so the financial side of the house is fine. Prenups have evolved over time and I will tell you that I would be at more of a risk than he is but that is not what this is about.



Perhaps the bold is a problem for him.

Or, the professions involved here (doctor/lawyer) may indicate an issue. A doctor heals/cares whereas a lawyer is always involved with conflict.


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> On the one hand you told him that marriage is so important to you that you require that you be married within x years.
> 
> On the other hand you have formed what looks like a permanent relationship without the commitment of marriage.


I was wondering the same thing. Why did you move your whole family in with him? that is a pretty major commitment without being married?

it may be that, despite having the prenup, he does not want to formally acknowledge a marriage with you for estate reasons? 50 is older, he may be thinking he wants his estate to go to his kids to finally "mend" any hard feelings, and he is worried that with you being a a lawyer that you might derail that somehow if married to him? I wonder this because I had a good friend that did exactly that....did not want to marry his current GF due to his properties and money. He was happy to sleep with her though.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

tom67 said:


> This is interesting
> Home | Divorce Corp


Being that the OP is an attorney.... Probably not a Divorce attorney, she understand the financial disaster of a divorce. She has been through it herself.

If there were young kids involved, I can see marriage as an option to be good role models...

Another thing a marriage would do would be to keep a couple together long enough to work out the bad times.... maybe see a marriage councler... I can see where it would be easy to just leave a co-habitive relationship.


Elegirl talked of the gl community and they are fighting so hard to be married.

I can't find a good source, but I would like to know the success rate of an unmarried gay couple...Now that they are legally married in some states, I am sure they will have the same fate like the rest of us... Be careful what you wish for...

I agree with another poster...

Why did you bring your children into this relationship if marriage is so important?

You hare financially independent....I assume...

Why not live apart until you married?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I have an older neighbor friend who's husband passed away about 6 years ago... Great husband, great couple...

She met a new man a few years ago who was divorced... She wanted and expected to get married to him BEFORE sex.... This woman is in her 60's.the guy was mid- 50's...

She is a good girl though...She wanted both if them to wait until they were married before sex... He didn't hang around too long...


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Trickster said:


> I have an older neighbor friend..... He didn't hang around too long...


well yeah....guy wants to date...have some sex. Not going to marry a woman 10 years older than him if she is acting all prissy on him. Why take that risk? What if, like SOOOOO many other posts on here, the sex turns out to be abysmal AFTER they marry??? 

A man, in todays litigious and modern times, would be absolutely nutz to not sample the goods first before marrying.

if you were buying a new car, would you simply order one on-line and have UPS deliver it, or would you go to a dealership and do a test drive first??? maybe try different models out to see which one fits your butt best??


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

murphy5 said:


> well yeah....guy wants to date...have some sex. Not going to marry a woman 10 years older than him if she is acting all prissy on him. Why take that risk? What if, like SOOOOO many other posts on here, the sex turns out to be abysmal AFTER they marry???
> 
> A man, in todays litigious and modern times, would be absolutely nutz to not sample the goods first before marrying.
> 
> if you were buying a new car, would you simply order one on-line and have UPS deliver it, or would you go to a dealership and do a test drive first??? maybe try different models out to see which one fits your butt best??


I drive a lot for my career and needed a inexpensive very reliable car. I chose a brand new Honda Fit. I went to the dealership, saw the car I wanted, which there was just one on the lot so I bought it without even test driving it.... Why...However.... If I were to buy a used car, I would test drive it, take it to my mechanic to look to see the defects first... I would want to know what I was getting myself in to...Even with my brand new Honda, there was a recall and had to get it fixed...

Maybe living together is like leasing a car instead of buying or leasing a home with the option to buy....Probably not the best comparison...

If we would of lived in our home a year before we bought it... I don't know if we would of bought...Like a marriage, it takes a while before we notice the defects. The defects usually appear after the purchase....

OP-

With a failed marriage, your bf may not trust marriage.

As a side note, my SIL is an attorney... Nothing against attorney's, but I fear divorce because I feel I would be raked over the coals, dragged over broken glass and then thrown in a pool of lemon juice. 

I don't know what your bf went through with his D. I am sure it wasn't pretty. What divorce is?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If marriage is a piece of paper to someone then don't bother. How many of those who say this actually have the paper though? Plenty.

I think an internal date is sensible. It will be difficult not to want to let that date creep so be strong!


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Since she moved everything/one for him that explains a lot of the need for him to show he is equally committed. I get it.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

truthitis2u said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I have been with my BF for over 4 years and yet he hasn't proposed. I made it very clear to him a couple years ago that I wasn't going to be that woman that waits 5 years to get married to someone and now I find myself in that place.
> 
> ...



That sentence right there says it all. If needs aren't being met, then it's time to move on and find someone who will meet your needs, IMO. It's a two-way street.

Also, a vacation by yourself isn't going to make him do something he doesn't want to do. It seems rather manipulative to me. Plus, it could backfire and make him realize that he may NOT want to continue with you because he then he won't be under pressure to marry you.

You've made it clear that you need marriage. I think he's made it clear that he most likely does not.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

truthitis2u, I'm not trying to be mean, but marrying a female attorney is only slightly less risky than playing Russian Roulette with a Colt automatic. I've seen it happen three times to friends and they all ended in bloodbaths; the marriages, that is, ended in legal bloodbaths. Some things are just suicidal by nature.

And as we all know, second marriages fail at an even greater rate than first marriages; possibly as high as 67%. So, that's a second solid reason to just say no.

Furthermore, once a woman is married to a man her attitude and behavior toward him changes; she is more concerned with him pleasing her and less interested in pleasing him. He's in the cage, so she can relax; the pressure is off. 

Marriage came into existence for some very simple fundamental reasons, the male wanted exclusive sex on demand and legitimate children and the female needed protection, with a side order of the man's excess labor production. You don't need protection, you're a predator yourself by trade. You make more, so you don't need his excess kill. Men no longer need to marry for sex; if a guy works out and eats right, has a rap, and can look a girl in the eye, he can get more diseases in a month than he can cure.

In fact, there is only one sensible reason for an irreligious man, such as you BF, to marry in the present legal environment and that is to produce legitimate male heirs, which he has already achieved. Do you want to bear him more children? 

So, from his perspective, you're offering him the opportunity of a reduced volume of sex, along with a whole lot of potential legal fees and headaches for absolutely nothing in return. Cost benefit analysis: why buy the cow if you can get milk through the fence for free?

Plan B: talk him into moving to Texas, then introduce him to somebody as you husband; I now pronounce you man and wife. Lots of people get surprised by that in family court when they didn't know they were even married under common law.


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> truthitis2u, I'm not trying to be mean, but marrying a female attorney is only slightly less risky than playing Russian Roulette with a Colt automatic. I've seen it happen three times to friends and they all ended in bloodbaths; the marriages, that is, ended in legal bloodbaths. Some things are just suicidal by nature.
> 
> And as we all know, second marriages fail at an even greater rate than first marriages; possibly as high as 67%. So, that's a second solid reason to just say no.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with your analogy of why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. However, you don't know OP and you don't know if her ways would change after marriage. It sounds like you're telling her "Just don't even get married." It's her decision. Furthermore, it's rude for you to say that her profession is a reason for him not to marry her. Just because you say "not to be mean" doesn't mean it isn't mean. Maybe you could be a little more sensitive to the issue. Listing her profession as a reason for him to not marry her is not really helpful.

OP, it seems like at this point people are debating on whether they think you should get married. YOU want to get married. That's great and wonderful. Marriage is amazing. Pursue that. Your SO does not want to get married. You're probably not going to get marriage by being with him. There's really only one option in this circumstance.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

truthitis2u said:


> Just stuck in whether to jump ship and rebuild or keep things the way they are.


If it was me, I'd keep it the way it is (if it is satisfying). 

In 10 years when he's 60, you're 48, and the kids are out, you might want to reconsider anyway. If you marry him "forever" you're likely to be in for a long stretch of caregiving...

Just sayin'


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Counterfit said:


> OH Please....The original poster is divorced as is the man she is trying to get to marry her.......so much for her belief in the "Sanctity of Marriage". They both come from FAILED Marriages.
> 
> He does not want to get burned again.......good for him.


And this is why it's very important to assess compatibility on these issues BEFORE moving in with someone.. A person who cares about Marriage should never date someone who feels it's frivolous and just a piece of paper. Even after being burnt. if one doesn't feel love can be found again...with the intention to make it legal if this be the case, with those papered strings of commitment .. I would consider their baggage too heavy of a load...

These things should always be a great concern when dating...Unpack the baggage and assess it well... these are 2 very differing mindsets. 

It's just a sad thing, I've seen many threads come & go on this ...the woman is left waiting and waiting.. she is beside herself.. the man is happy, he is content, he is getting all the benefits HE needs from their living together...there is little incentive for him to walk down the aisle and put a ring on it....

You may have to step out the door on this one.. to see how much he loves you.. If it means THAT much to you.. otherwise.. you'll have to accept what is..


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Completely agree with your analogy of why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. However, you don't know OP and you don't know if her ways would change after marriage.


Obviously, I'm speaking about a generality that is almost universally observed. It's basic psychobiology. Sure, there will be many, many women who are the exceptions, but OP's BF is playing with the mathematics in mind. You always play the odds when the money is on the table. Unless you're insane.



ariel_angel77 said:


> It sounds like you're telling her "Just don't even get married." It's her decision.


No, it's HIS decision. She's already decided from her end to get married; I'm just giving her some thoughts on what his reasoning is.



ariel_angel77 said:


> Furthermore, it's rude for you to say that her profession is a reason for him not to marry her. Just because you say "not to be mean" doesn't mean it isn't mean. Maybe you could be a little more sensitive to the issue.


No, it's not one bit rude.



ariel_angel77 said:


> Listing her profession as a reason for him to not marry her is not really helpful.


Ignoring one of the elephants in the room is what is not helpful.



ariel_angel77 said:


> OP, it seems like at this point people are debating on whether they think you should get married. YOU want to get married. That's great and wonderful. Marriage is amazing. Pursue that. Your SO does not want to get married. You're probably not going to get marriage by being with him. There's really only one option in this circumstance.


Probably not. OP has some level of attraction to this guy, he is most likely in the top 10% of male earners (even though she makes more), she's been shacked up with him for years, so they have history, and she's not getting any younger. The older a divorcée gets, the less likely she is to remarry. This is further complicated by her high earnings, which stereotypically confound a woman's attraction to potential mates.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Has her boyfriend said he does not want to marry her because she is a lawyer? If not then you are being rude.

The prejudice against lawyers is ridiculous... And yet the first thing we say is to get a good lawyer when D is on the horizon.

A good lawyer is worth his weight in gold and that is either as a hired gun or for protection.

People get greedy. Those people pick up bad lawyers and fire, hoping to hit pray dirt.

Machiavelli, you are being an ass.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Blonde said:


> In 10 years when he's 60, you're 48, and the kids are out, you might want to reconsider anyway.
> Just sayin'


Can also work the other way around. He may want some 30 year old arm candy then, and not a 50 year old lady.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm thinking about some age prejudice here. 60 is not geriatric.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Has her boyfriend said he does not want to marry her because she is a lawyer? If not then you are being rude.
> 
> The prejudice against lawyers is ridiculous... And yet the first thing we say is to get a good lawyer when D is on the horizon.
> 
> ...


I'm saying that this may be part of the BF's weighing and measuring process. She should find out. I personally would never marry a woman who was an attorney. I've never seen it succeed _unless the H was also an attorney_. This is true even when the non-lawyer H was the higher earner.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

truthitis2u said:


> I am starting to get to the point of whether or not I should stay in this relationship if my needs aren't being met.


The above is the root of the matter.

Your needs aren't being met.

If marriage is what you want to meet your needs, then sadly, he is not the man for you. You are still very young, have a good career & can find a man willing to marry you. Why sit around for years "hoping" that he will marry you.

Hope is not a plan.

My late Father was 50 with a live-in girlfriend who wanted to get married. He did not, but strung her along with vague statements & no actions toward marriage so she left him. After 6 months he realized that he wanted her in his life & married her. A good marriage that lasted over 20 yrs. until his death.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

barbados said:


> Can also work the other way around. He may want some 30 year old arm candy then, and not a 50 year old lady.


OTH I was imagining her post menopause with a cougar sex drive, no danger of pregnancy, and still working her high powered attorney job.

The present BF will be collecting SS and having ED from his meds. 

She might prefer a nice healthy younger hard body 40something career man.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Mach, this isn't about you. You are afraid of regular women. Of course you couldn't handle one who would make your arguments into mince meat.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Blonde said:


> OTH I was imagining her post menopause with a cougar sex drive, no danger of pregnancy, and still working her high powered attorney job.
> 
> The present BF will be collecting SS and having ED from his meds.
> 
> She might prefer a nice healthy younger hard body 40something career man.


This could happen as well...In 10 years, she may be the one coming back here complaining of her older ed husband.

An older successful confident independent agressive attorney? A younger man may go for that... Just not long term...Unless they want a sugar mamma... It could easily happen...

I see the age difference as an issue... Maybe we is thinking the same thing...in 10 years or so, she may want a man her own age.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Mach, this isn't about you. You are afraid of regular women. Of course you couldn't handle one who would make your arguments into mince meat.


Feel free to try. The MD is most likely a reasonably intelligent man, so he can see the facts for himself. How do we know this? He's not bought a ring, yet. Now, if presented with a change in circumstances, even an ultimatum, he may decide to risk it and marry. Presently, there is no need for him to do anything other than a quick cost-benefit analysis, which he has clearly done. To get him to move toward the OP, she has to lower the cost or increase the benefit.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> truthitis2u, I'm not trying to be mean, but marrying a female attorney is only slightly less risky than playing Russian Roulette with a Colt automatic. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Can you explain why?


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> Mach, this isn't about you. You are afraid of regular women. Of course you couldn't handle one who would make your arguments into mince meat.


Shaming tactic alert! Code Yellow. Charge of Cowardice.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree with Mach...

Like I said, my SIL is an attorney... Over the past 22 years or so, she always has the last word, she is always right, she presents her statements or states her case and follows up with some facts. I have always been the defendant... She is very sweet, generous, smart, and a lot of other good qualities. I like her... 

However, I would never want to go against her in court.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

spinsterdurga said:


> Machiavelli said:
> 
> 
> > truthitis2u, I'm not trying to be mean, but marrying a female attorney is only slightly less risky than playing Russian Roulette with a Colt automatic. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> spinsterdurga said:
> 
> 
> > if she's one of the lucky few who find a job, and that's a problem for long term attraction.
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Blonde said:


> OTH I was imagining her post menopause with a cougar sex drive, no danger of pregnancy, and still working her high powered attorney job.
> 
> The present BF will be collecting SS and having ED from his meds.
> 
> She might prefer a nice healthy younger hard body 40something career man.


I was thinking the same thing & almost posted something along these lines -but you stole my thunder !


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

"Marry a lawyer?proceed with caution."

Don't know what type of Lawyer the op is...Most Lawyers are Alpha and want control. The attributes that make them a good Lawyer, is just the opposite for a successful marriage...

Most Lawyers have the same cut throat attitude...

Marry a Lawyer? Proceed With Caution » Lawyer Avenue


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Marriage is a huge risk for a guy, but marriage to a female lawyer is just downright daredevil.


Marriage is a huge risk for a woman, esp to an older man like this.

Older men tend to want caretaking and nursing from their wives.

And her substantial income and any assets and/or future inheritance will be at risk in any divorce.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Some traits of a Lawyer...

Sorry Truth....None of these traits may apply to you...

Honestly, I am projecting here... These traits describe her perfectly... I knew her 22 years ago before she was a Lawyer... She was the same back then... My wife said she was like that back in H.S. She was on the debate team and always won...

She did work her butt off and put herself through Law School... She is definitely ambitious and without a doubt, works hard. She has earned her income and is great at what she does...

10 Telling Traits Of Lawyers | Thought Catalog


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Marriage is a huge risk for a woman, esp to an older man like this.
> 
> Older men tend to want caretaking and nursing from their wives.
> 
> And her substantial income and any assets and/or future inheritance will be at risk in any divorce.


Which returns us to the question: why do it in the first place?


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

Blonde said:


> OTH I was imagining her post menopause with a cougar sex drive, no danger of pregnancy, and still working her high powered attorney job.
> 
> The present BF will be collecting SS and having ED from his meds.
> 
> She might prefer a nice healthy younger hard body 40something career man.


So what then would be the incentive for the H to marry her, and for her to marry him ?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well, now that the OP has been insulted and torn apart for a few pages, do we really expect her to come back here and post again?

Geez


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Well, now that the OP has been insulted and torn apart for a few pages, do we really expect her to come back here and post again?
> 
> Geez


I'd say the OP's H as been ripped pretty good as well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

barbados said:


> I'd say the OP's H as been ripped pretty good as well.


Not really. I don't see post after post saying that anyone would be nuts to marry him because he's a "fill in the blank". Most posts are telling her to basically shut up and take whatever he's willing to give because at her age she's like a used car, etc etc.

Further, her bf (it's not her husband, hence the title of the thread) is not here. Nothing anyone says on here will drive him away from TAM.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Well maybe he has read this...

A Voice for Men – Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry

It would make me think twice about marriage.
Just sayin.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tom67 said:


> Well maybe he has read this...
> 
> A Voice for Men â€“ Humanist Counter-Theory in the Age of Misandry
> 
> ...


Then don't marry. 

The radical men's movement is just as nutty as the radical feminists movement. (note the word "radical")


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The don't marry.
> 
> The radical men's movement is just as nutty as the radical feminists movement. (note the word "radical")


Yeah radical
Here is an actual court case madam
Judge orders sailor deployed at sea to attend a hearing in her Michigan courtroom
Put that in your pipe!
I rest my case.

Please just read the black parts.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Family law is nothing but a money maker for the judges and the shysters.
And yes for the most part breadwinning men do get screwed in the US
Divorce Corp: Why the American Family-Court System is Broken - YouTube


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tom67 said:


> Yeah radical
> 
> Here is an actual court case madam
> 
> ...


I'm not sure why you are resorting to calling me names... pretty hostile.

I guess you are not aware that this is an ongoing problem with military members. During the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict female military members often lost custody and even visitation rights to their children under similar circumstances.

This is an issue that is faced by all unmarried military members who have custody of their child(ren). It's not a male military member only issue.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tom67 said:


> Family law is nothing but a money maker for the judges and the shysters.
> And yes for the most part breadwinning men do get screwed in the US
> 
> Divorce Corp: Why the American Family-Court System is Broken - YouTube


I'm not going to fight gender wars on this thread. This OP has no children with her bf. She makes more than he does. 

Your angry tirade has no bearing on their relationship.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not going to fight gender wars on this thread. This OP has no children with her bf. She makes more than he does.
> 
> Your angry tirade has no bearing on their relationship.


Actually this movie shows what a chirade family law is it is sad.
On both ends.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Here is the movie
Watch Divorce Corp Online Free - Alluc Streaming Links


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

back to topic...

OP needs to figure out why he is not willing to propose.

Being a successful lawyer and out-earning may or not be the reason.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

this thread is a prime example of why some men are pussies.

it's also why women don't respect them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

OP,some people need marriage and some people don't. Your BF appears to be one who no longer needs it to be happy. You need it and that's ok. 
If you pressure him or keep bringing it up til he gives in and marries you I can tell you that you still won't be happy. The reason is because you absolutely cannot be happy knowing while he may love you the only reason he married you is because you wanted it. 

I think I'd leave and find someone who was more into the idea of marriage. It doesn't have to be a malicious break up or anything horrible. You're two adults with different life goals. Neither is better or worse.Just different.


----------



## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> OP,some people need marriage and some people don't. Your BF appears to be one who no longer needs it to be happy. You need it and that's ok.
> If you pressure him or keep bringing it up til he gives in and marries you I can tell you that you still won't be happy. The reason is because you absolutely cannot be happy knowing while he may love you the only reason he married you is because you wanted it.
> 
> I think I'd leave and find someone who was more into the idea of marriage. It doesn't have to be a malicious break up or anything horrible. You're two adults with different life goals. Neither is better or worse.Just different.


If everything else is fine in the relationship, why break that up? The men attacking...myself included are not telling the op to break up the relationship. 

My thought... If that even matters is if marriage is so important, why did she move in with him to begin with? I believe she moved in with him... She did say that if she leaves....

They are a family. Her kids, i assums are still young. Why break that up? The bf doesn't need marriage to have that commitment... 

Hope the OP comes back...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Which returns us to the question: why do it in the first place?


After menopause ITA. If my M fails, I don't intend to enter another M. I wouldn't be living with him either like she is (d/t "caretaking" strings which come with that). I want to be able to go home to my own place at night an him go to his own place.

However, she's 38. She could get pregnant. A father should take responsibility for his children. Not as much legal leverage to force that if they aren't married.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trickster said:


> If everything else is fine in the relationship, why break that up? The men attacking...myself included are not telling the op to break up the relationship.
> 
> My thought... If that even matters is if marriage is so important, why did she move in with him to begin with? I believe she moved in with him... She did say that if she leaves....
> 
> ...


Why not break that up if he isn't meeting her need for a marital commitment? Some people can go without certain needs being met but this is a major need of hers. She isn't going to be ok with this ever.Why wait til year 8 or longer to break up over it? It's going to happen sooner or later bc this need to be married isn't going to just disappear.

The BF doesn't need marriage to have that commitment but OP needs it. Their needs are very different and that will ultimately tear them apart anyway.

ETA To many people,the unwillingness to say vows and get married shows a lack of faith in the future of the relationship. Maybe to OP,an unwilling attitude toward marriage makes her feel replaceable and uncertain of the future of the relationship...as though her BF is holding out in case something better comes along.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Which returns us to the question: why do it in the first place?





barbados said:


> So what then would be the incentive for the H to marry her, and for her to marry him ?



It amuses me that men apparently feel that they are so exploited by M. IME it's the other way around. A W risks her health and body childbearing, and pours herself out in unpaid service to the family.

The only plus is M provides legal leverage to force the H to take care of his responsibilities such as child support in the event of a D (without the legal teeth, how many would walk away and abandon their children and expect taxpayers to foot the bill?)

But for a woman who is past menopause and in no danger of having children to M? :crazy:

MIL has been a widow for 13y. She says "why on earth would I remarry? These old men just want someone to take care of them!"

Not only that, she has children and their potential inheritance would be exposed by a M. 

LOL that men think M is so unfair to THEM :rofl:


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I personally think marriage is perfectly fair for both parties provided both parties give 100%.

It's divorce that's unfair. Divorce gives marriage a bad rep


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> this thread is a prime example of why some men are pussies.
> 
> it's also why women don't respect them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No it's because men who are smart enough not to enter a contract that f^cks them over and is of NO benefit to them.
But to each their own.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I personally think marriage is perfectly fair for both parties provided both parties give 100%.
> 
> It's divorce that's unfair. Divorce gives marriage a bad rep


I watched that movie divorcecorp it was truly sad.
50 billion dollar a year business.
Judges and lawyers making money off one another.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

tom67 said:


> No it's because men who are smart enough not to enter a contract that f^cks them over and is of NO benefit to them.
> But to each their own.


How can you say there is NO benefit to the man? Every situation is different.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Omego said:


> How can you say there is NO benefit to the man? Every situation is different.


Okay, when the man is the breadwinner mainly.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

tom67 said:


> No it's because men who are smart enough not to enter a contract that f^cks them over and is of NO benefit to them.
> But to each their own.


Eh,it depends on the situation. In my case,Dh wouldn't get f*cked at all. We don't have children together and while I do make more than him,our income is now close enough that our divorce would be pretty clean. We'd split assets and liabilities,sell our house and move on with life. 

The sticky situations are the ones with children, huge income gap/ SAHP households,and when people are so angry they're just out to f**k each other over for life.


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Okay, when the man is the breadwinner mainly.


I see your line of thinking, but what would the alternative be? These upwardly mobile, educated, career men should just go from one girlfriend to the next without building anything? What about children?

There is no black and white answer.

I've seen the opposite quite often. The woman gives up her career, raises the children, then the man runs off with his secretary when the children get older... Yes, it sounds like a cliche out of a 1950s movie, but there you have it.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Watch the movie divorcecorp.
Like the guy who made the film Scandinavia does it right they keep the courts out of it.
split the assets 50/50 there is a set table for child support and alimony is for 6 months that's it and the judges and shysters don't make a dime off you.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Blonde said:


> It amuses me that men apparently feel that they are so exploited by M. IME it's the other way around. A W risks her health and body childbearing, and pours herself out in unpaid service to the family.
> 
> The only plus is M provides legal leverage to force the H to take care of his responsibilities such as child support in the event of a D (without the legal teeth, how many would walk away and abandon their children and expect taxpayers to foot the bill?)
> 
> ...


----------



## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Watch the movie divorcecorp.
> Like the guy who made the film Scandinavia does it right they keep the courts out of it.
> split the assets 50/50 there is a set table for child support and alimony is for 6 months that's it and the judges and shysters don't make a dime off you.


I think this definitely makes sense. Would solve a lot of problems for sure. There was a thread recently about someone who got ridiculously taken for a ride in his divorce settlement: didn't even have enough to live on...

Anyway, I guess we're thread-jacking here.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> this thread is a prime example of why some men are pussies.
> 
> it's also why women don't respect them.


If OP doesn't respect BF because he's a *****, why does she want to marry him?


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Okay, when the man is the breadwinner mainly.


H was the breadwinner mainly.

We have 8 children, 4 are adults.

I bore them, nursed them, homeschooled them some, mothered them, did home improvement projects with them. 

Our average income for 25years was <50K. I sold some property I inherited from my grampa (58K), put it into home equity, and ran an extremely tight ship financially so that we paid off our 15y mortgage in 11 years and by then after buying and selling 2 homes with increasing equity (SWEAT equity) we owned two houses outright- one is a rental.

I grew up in a real estate family. I found a foreclosure in 2008 which we bought for 25K with a loan from my mom and his mom. That is fixed up now and rents for 950/mo. We invested in a duplex with adult son who learned his renovation skills doing home renovation projects in youth. That is fixed now and grosses 1500/mo which is split with him.

So H brought in <50K average for 25 years for a family of 10 and we have accumulated close to a million dollars in assets. 

That was not H's doing. And should we D I don't even think half is fair. I wish I had a prenup protecting the inheritance I brought into the M. The inheritance from my mom's estate is not going into joint acct.

AND he has highly successful, well educated, professional children who were well nurtured in childhood. ALL of our adult children make more money just starting out than we made for a family of 10 for 25 years. They are MD, PA's, business (harvard grad).

Yep, wives and M are useless and exploit men


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Blonde said:


> She could get pregnant. A father should take responsibility for his children. *Not as much legal leverage to force that if they aren't married.*


Marriage is only a requirement to force child support from a man when he has been cuckolded by his wife, due to retention of the old pre-DNA assumption of paternity. If a man IS the father, the marital status doesn't matter.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, that is impressive, Blonde.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Divorce can exploit any spouse that has something to lose. If the amount one might lose is disproportional to their potential marital partner, it is a wise precaution to at least consider and prepare for the fallout should one get married.

Men or women. Not sure why gender wars are involved.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Machiavelli said:
> 
> 
> > Which returns us to the question: why do it in the first place?
> ...


 The question is, if it's such a risk to the OP, why does she want to marry BF? I'm agreeing with your contention that OPs finances may be at risk, especially since courts have been throwing out longstanding prenups lately.



Blonde said:


> IME it's the other way around. A W risks her health and body childbearing, and pours herself out in unpaid service to the family.


I didn't see where BF asked OP to have kids. Aren't BFs kids all out of the house? It's not like these people don't have servants



Blonde said:


> The only plus is M provides legal leverage to force the H to take care of his responsibilities such as child support in the event of a D (without the legal teeth, how many would walk away and abandon their children and expect taxpayers to foot the bill?)


That's only true in a cuckold situation where the husband has to be forced to pay CS for kids he didn't father. 



Blonde said:


> But for a woman who is past menopause and in no danger of having children to M? :crazy:


Some people believe that Christianity stipulates that sex is reserved for marriage; so for those Christians, there's nothing crazy about it.



Blonde said:


> LOL that men think M is so unfair to THEM :rofl:


Life's unfair. So what?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

OP - either he will marry you or he will not. If he does not want to get married, then you need to decide whether you want to remain in a relationship with him or not.

This is one of those: can you live with it or not-things.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> OP,s*ome people need marriage and some people don't. Your BF appears to be one who no longer needs it to be happy. You need it and that's ok. *
> If you pressure him or keep bringing it up til he gives in and marries you I can tell you that you still won't be happy. The reason is because* you absolutely cannot be happy knowing while he may love you the only reason he married you is because you wanted it.
> *
> *I think I'd leave and find someone who was more into the idea of marriage.* It doesn't have to be a malicious break up or anything horrible. You're two adults with different life goals. Neither is better or worse.Just different.


Nailed it.

:iagree:


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Machiavelli said:


> Some people believe that Christianity stipulates that sex is reserved for marriage; so for those Christians, there's nothing crazy about it.


Apparently not OP as she is living with BF (and having sex with him outside of M).

Unless one of them is sterilized there is a risk of pregnancy (which is the only argument for M that makes sense to ME in her shoes)


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## PAgirl (Sep 10, 2013)

What is more important: staying in a great and stable relationship (which is what you have told us) or that piece of paper? Its up to you. Please give us an update what you decide.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mach,
I believe there is a lot that's unsaid here.

The OP has been very determined not to discuss her motives. She wants what she wants and does not have to justify it. In my experience, the refusal to disclose motive is based on the motive being unflattering. 

She mentions income but says nothing about assets. 

My guess:
- He is high and growing net worth 
- They are living in his house

As for the 'marriage effect', all I will say is that I experienced very little of it. But if anything happened to M2, I'd find a non marital way to provide financially for an SO. I would not remarry. 





Machiavelli said:


> spinsterdurga said:
> 
> 
> > In the case of a regular guy who puts his wife through law school (that's just asking for it), she may end up earning more than he does, if she's one of the lucky few who find a job, and that's a problem for long term attraction. Many women cannot maintain attraction for a guy who earns less than they do. That's not a problem for OP, at least not now, because she's trying to work toward that shiny ring up there.
> ...


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Omego said:


> I see your line of thinking, but what would the alternative be? These upwardly mobile, educated, career men should just go from one girlfriend to the next without building anything? What about children?


If a guy doesn't want kids, there is zero reason for him to marry.



Omego said:


> I've seen the opposite quite often. The woman gives up her career, raises the children, then the man runs off with his secretary when the children get older... Yes, it sounds like a cliche out of a 1950s movie, but there you have it.


75% of divorces are filed by the woman and that's not a new development.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good afternoon all
I think a person is free to decide that they want marriage and to leave a relationship if their partner doesn't want to get married. Whether this is for religious, social, or financial reasons doesn't matter. 

I think all that matters is that a couple is honest with each other about what they want out of a relationship and about their future plans.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Machiavelli said:
> 
> 
> > Some people believe that Christianity stipulates that sex is reserved for marriage; so for those Christians, there's nothing crazy about it.
> ...


The comment about Christianity above was made in reference to your general comment below, which is not limited to OP:



Blonde said:


> But for a woman who is past menopause and in no danger of having children to M? :crazy:
> 
> MIL has been a widow for 13y. She says "why on earth would I remarry? These old men just want someone to take care of them!"


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Mach,
> I believe there is a lot that's unsaid here.
> 
> The OP has been very determined not to discuss her motives. She wants what she wants and does not have to justify it. In my experience, the refusal to disclose motive is based on the motive being unflattering.
> ...


They are living in a house that they built together.




MEM11363 said:


> As for the 'marriage effect', all I will say is that I experienced very little of it. But if anything happened to M2, I'd find a non marital way to provide financially for an SO. I would not remarry.


If this is the way he feels, he needs to tell her. The fact that he leads her on by saying that he does want to marry some day is a huge part of the problem. He is not being honest.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Or some women would have just jumped ship a long time ago.

"Marriage is not in the cards for us/you're still on the fence about it/don't know? This relationship isn't going to work for me" and then roll out.

She has stayed these 4 years, sans marriage, because she has chosen to.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> They are living in a house that they built together.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the way he feels, he needs to tell her. The fact that he leads her on by saying that he does want to marry some day is a huge part of the problem. He is not being honest.


hes been telling her for 4 yrs now. or she would have a ring. 

she needs to decide if its a deal breaker and if so then SHE need to move on.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn said:


> hes been telling her for 4 yrs now. or she would have a ring.
> 
> she needs to decide if its a deal breaker and if so then SHE need to move on.


It's the difference between words and actions.

His words say one thing. His actions something else.

Like many people, the OP is trying to believe the words because that's what she wants. And she's trying to ignore his actions. But actions always speak louder than words. this is why she's confused, her gut is telling her to listen to his actions.


----------



## Peachie (Jul 10, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> It's the difference between words and actions.
> 
> His words say one thing. His actions something else.
> 
> Like many people, the OP is trying to believe the words because that's what she wants. And she's trying to ignore his actions. But actions always speak louder than words. this is why she's confused, her gut is telling her to listen to his actions.


You just had to go and post something that makes perfect sense, didn't ya?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ele,

I freely concede that the OP hasn't provided us much in the way of specifics. So my reaction to this thread is based more on my view of human nature and specifically lawyers. 

So I may be completely wrong about this specific situation. 

-------

I know that I have a bias where lawyers are concerned. Largely because a successful lawyer has a very powerful drive to advocate for their client. They tend to focus almost exclusively on winning. 

That same mindset at home can be rather problematic. 

Note: the OP says they created a household together. 

Doesn't mean they bought a house together. And frankly this type of ambiguity is why I lack trust in lawyers. They make statements that a reasonable person would interpret to mean 'X' at a glance, and then later act surprised that anyone imparted such a meaning to their statement. 





EleGirl said:


> They are living in a house that they built together.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the way he feels, he needs to tell her. The fact that he leads her on by saying that he does want to marry some day is a huge part of the problem. He is not being honest.


----------



## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> this thread is a prime example of why some men are pussies.
> 
> it's also why women don't respect them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is this really necessary? Always playing the gender card.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

The bottom line is she wants marriage and it seems he doesn't.

It is a fundamental difference, no matter what careers they have, where they live, who is taller, smaller, makes more money, age differences, vacation preferences. 

She has been waiting for something that may never happened. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Maybe someone already said this, but can't YOU ask HIM to marry you?

That's really the only way to get what you want. It would be unwise to give him an ultimatum. If he says "no" to your proposal, and being married is something you must have, then you know to move on.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> this thread is a prime example of why some men are pussies.
> 
> it's also why women don't respect them.


:scratchhead:

How is a man a p*ssy for not asking a woman to marry him, if he doesn't want to get married?


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Maybe someone already said this, but can't YOU ask HIM to marry you?


Yes, that has already been suggested and she said she would not do that.



Anonymous07 said:


> If you truly want the marriage, then propose to him yourself.





truthitis2u said:


> I am not going to propose to him because I think that also will make him feel forced into marriage. He knows what I want and he will either get his act together or lose out.
> 
> I am not an idiot but love does play with the brain sometimes. I definitely will have to give this a lot of further thought. Right now, I am thinking I need to come up with an internal deadline. I will not give him an ultimatum but I will give myself one.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

This is just my opinion after being married for a long time.



If this marriage fails I would never get married again no way no how never never never.

this dosen't mean That I won't love or cohabitate but never married again. and any woman who says its a deal breaker then they are not the one for me.

as a matter of fact I will teach my sons that marriage is a lose lose situation.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

If you are in a long term relationship, legal marriage won't change that AT ALL.

I don't understand what the big deal is to OP (or women) when it comes to marriage. I mean I know our society has forced that down your throat and all but is it REALLY necessary? 

Fact that legal balance is swayed towards women doesn't help the cause either.

OP's boyfriend has every reason not do proceed, if OP for a second put himself into his shoes. Probably wouldn't proceed with it herself in that case.

Marriage itself is over rated. It does NOTHING for relationship. It's a legal stamp....checkbox if you will.....


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

DH wanted marriage for a lot of reasons and he's certainly not female and it was never shoved down his throat  It's a big deal for him. 

Most of his reasons were romance based. He loves the idea of being Mr and Mrs,having his wife take his last name,referring to me as his wife,etc. It was a right of passage to him...something amazing that signified he is a grown man with responsibilities. To him marriage means so much more than a piece of paper or a tax benefits. Saying our vows really hit home for him and if I'm not being a hard ass I'll admit they hit home for me too.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

:iagree: with Chillymorn and DoF.

I won't remarry. If someone needs marriage to prove commitment, I'm going to mention how that worked out for my previous marriage. Marriage doesn't guarantee anything. Working for each other each day does.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I've read too many bad stories.

Folks doing stuff that they would never have dared to do before the magic ring. Stuff they know an untethered partner wouldn't tolerate in a million years. 

The more aggressive someone is about marriage, the more confident I would be that their intention was to change - whatever the existing pattern is. 





chillymorn said:


> This is just my opinion after being married for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Scarlet,
And I'm glad I AM married, just wouldn't roll the dice again.





ScarletBegonias said:


> DH wanted marriage for a lot of reasons and he's certainly not female and it was never shoved down his throat  It's a big deal for him.
> 
> Most of his reasons were romance based. He loves the idea of being Mr and Mrs,having his wife take his last name,referring to me as his wife,etc. It was a right of passage to him...something amazing that signified he is a grown man with responsibilities. To him marriage means so much more than a piece of paper or a tax benefits. Saying our vows really hit home for him and if I'm not being a hard ass I'll admit they hit home for me too.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

disclaimer.

if she was really rich ......first time love second time ...........

yuck. Don't even think I could do it then.


----------



## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Scarlet,
> And I'm glad I AM married, just wouldn't roll the dice again.


This is my second and his first.I shouldn't have rolled the dice the first time but I'm pleased as punch I did it this time


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is my second and his first.I shouldn't have rolled the dice the first time but I'm pleased as punch I did it this time


Marriage is like anything, not perfect.

Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

NOTHING is guaranteed. 

I wouldn't go as far as saying I will never marry again, but I also have a great track record and a long/successful marriage.

Would I say the same thing if I didn't? Probably not


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This is my second and his first.I shouldn't have rolled the dice the first time but I'm pleased as punch I did it this time


time will tell. you didn't sound to please in your post about him not intinating sex.

long term relationships are a living breathing thing. the people grow (or not) and whats important to you change. sometimes spending the rest of your life with someone who hasn't grown or who has grown to be very different is just impossible.

I also think not being married keeps you honest to some degree. when you can split up without all the rubish that comes with divorce and losing half of everything then both partners might be more inclined to meet eachothers needs. and maybe even grow together instead of apart.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Wow really chilly morn? Did you not read the whole thread? Also there's a difference between a vent and being miserable w your marriage. I'm VERY pleased w my choice to marry DH. "Time will tell" is kind of a jack ass thing to say to someone about their marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peachie (Jul 10, 2014)

I had a crappy first very long marriage. But I definitely want to get married again. It wasn't the institution of marriage that was bad in my case, it was the person I married.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I'll remember not to vent here or ask for perspective from now on lest it be thrown in my face later to insinuate I'm not happy w being married to my DH. Smh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Wow really chilly morn? Did you not read the whole thread? Also there's a difference between a vent and being miserable w your marriage. I'm VERY pleased w my choice to marry DH. "Time will tell" is kind of a jack ass thing to say to someone about their marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wasn't trying to throw anything in your face. Sorry it came off that way.

I was just discussing marriage.

and yes time will tell for all marriages.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Alright you're entitled to your opinion so I apologize for getting sore about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> If this marriage fails I would never get married again no way no how never never never.
> 
> this dosen't mean That I won't love or cohabitate but never married again. and any woman who says its a deal breaker then they are not the one for me.





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I won't remarry. If someone needs marriage to prove commitment, I'm going to mention how that worked out for my previous marriage.





MEM11363 said:


> And I'm glad I AM married, just wouldn't roll the dice again.





DoF said:


> I wouldn't go as far as saying I will never marry again, but I also have a great track record and a long/successful marriage.


And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again? And if so, would you tell her upfront, or after she's already fallen in love and created a life with you?

Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nora,

That is a very fair question. 

I wouldn't lead with it, but if would pull the crap that the OP's guy has. 

BTW: this is the worst type of male cake eating - promising, delaying, rinse repeat. 

And I'll revise my statement: 

I would not put myself in a situation where I have to write someone a big check because they've decided to behave very differently/much worse than they did while dating. 

So to clarify:
- A financial equal
- A tight pre nup

But the whole - total trust thing - never again. 







norajane said:


> And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again? And if so, would you tell her upfront, or after she's already fallen in love and created a life with you?
> 
> Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

The marriage is a funny thing, if it was feelings only, and not legal why not have ceremony in the forest?

I had to get married with my H to be able to be with him (immigration policies) If we had our way we would just live together for years and when the time come to have a nice party for both families, we would get officially hitched. 

I referred to him as my H even before we were married, I call my sister and gf long term bf their husbands, even though they are not legally married, it is what they are to them. 

I think government got involved in the whole marriage so there is someone who is responsible for the kids. 

I agree, Scandinavians are on to something.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

norajane said:


> And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again? And if so, would you tell her upfront, or after she's already fallen in love and created a life with you?
> 
> Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


I can't say I've deliberately brought it up, but in the few relationships I've had since divorce that have lasted long enough to not consciously avoid the M word, it does come up. I've never concealed it.

I've tended to date more progressive minded women I think though. The couple times its come up, they've agreed and related that marriage doesn't really mean anything. They kinda like the romantic element - dreamt of the wedding as a little girl and changing their name (scrawling a guy's last name behind theirs to see what it looks/sounds like)... but as a legal thing they haven't cared. I'm all for ceremony and celebrating being together. It doesn't mean alimony if we break up 10 years later.

Since I'm snipped and don't want anymore children, that's usually the bigger issue and something I point out early deliberately. It doesn't seem to help. I've dated mostly 20-somethings and practically every one of them nods how they don't want to have/care for kids. I suspect this is rarely actually true, but that might be because I already experienced that change of mind with my ex. As soon as their friends start having kids, I bet they'll want kids. But whatever, I made myself known.

I don't think OP's hubby is doing a bait and switch. Its not a thing to him. Its her concern, she should bring it up. It sounds like she has, but my reading wasn't that he's opposed to marriage. I read that he just hasn't asked. If you're going to rely on him asking... I guess you just have to wait till he feels like it.

Its 2014. If you want him to marry you, ask him. Regardless of the answer there's no more waiting.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't think OP's hubby is doing a bait and switch. Its not a thing to him. Its her concern, she should bring it up. It sounds like she has, but my reading wasn't that he's opposed to marriage. I read that he just hasn't asked. If you're going to rely on him asking... I guess you just have to wait till he feels like it.
> 
> Its 2014. If you want him to marry you, ask him. Regardless of the answer there's no more waiting.


I agree she should bring it up again before taking some kind of action like leaving him. 

It's not clear from her posts when the last time they talked about marriage was. He said he wanted to marry her, but I think (from her posts) that might have been two years ago. If so, then it's time for a "have you given more thought to marriage" conversation. And she needs to be explicitly clear that their current status, while wonderful enough to want to marry him, is not sufficient to stay with him indefinitely.

Or she can propose, but I suspect she wants him to do that spontaneously so she can believe he really does want to marry her and isn't just feeling pressured into it. He already knows she wants to marry him, or did 2 years ago.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> The fact that he leads her on by saying that he does want to marry some day is a huge part of the problem. He is not being honest.


An excellent point.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Doesn't mean they bought a house together. And frankly this type of ambiguity is why I lack trust in lawyers. They make statements that a reasonable person would interpret to mean 'X' at a glance, and then later act surprised that anyone imparted such a meaning to their statement.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.

If the OP's BF doesnt want to marry, I'm fine with that. 

He is obviously not afraid of her position or he wouldn't be living with her... And she makes more than him. So that's not too shabby either.

Bunch of scared little boys running around here. Sad.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Feeling-Lonely said:


> I think government got involved in the whole marriage so there is someone who is responsible for the kids.


Government got involved because Luther wanted the RCC out of regulating who could and could not get married. When Canon Law went out witnessing and registration moved to the local German government. That was the beginning.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Ele,
> 
> Note: the OP says they created a household together.
> 
> Doesn't mean they bought a house together. And frankly this type of ambiguity is why I lack trust in lawyers. They make statements that a reasonable person would interpret to mean 'X' at a glance, and then later act surprised that anyone imparted such a meaning to their statement.


I went back and check. The OP said that they built a household together. Then someone else later picked up on that and said that they built a house together.

So I stand corrected. It's not clear if she meant that they had actually built a house together. I would take what she said as not.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Maybe someone already said this, but can't YOU ask HIM to marry you?
> 
> That's really the only way to get what you want. It would be unwise to give him an ultimatum. If he says "no" to your proposal, and being married is something you must have, then you know to move on.


My impression on why she will not come out and ask him to marry her now is that she already has let him know her desire to marry him.. She told him that she wants to be married within some time frame. He's ignored what she said.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

norajane said:


> And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again? And if so, would you tell her upfront, or after she's already fallen in love and created a life with you?
> 
> Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


Yep, apparently marriage is not a prerequisite to someone pulling the bait and switch. But we already knew that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Government got involved because Luther wanted the RCC out of regulating who could and could not get married. When Canon Law went out witnessing and registration moved to the local German government. That was the beginning.


In almost every society since that we have recorded records for has regulated marriage and required that marriages be recorded.

In some cases it was a religious authority who regulated marriage. In others it was the gov.

I see marriage as a legal/financial contract just like the ones we use to from businesses. There is no requirement for love in marriage. That should be a big clue that marriage is about merging families and finances into a legal entity.

Just like I would never be in business with someone without forming and registering a business entity, I would never combine by finances and family without the same sort of structure.

But that's me. I'm not a lawyer. But I can see the wisdom of being very careful how I combine my life with someone else.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.


Who said she was powerful? She said she was the high earner and a lawyer.



clipclop2 said:


> If the OP's BF doesnt want to marry, I'm fine with that.


Yeah, but OP is not fine with it. She's asking for insight into what her BF may, or may not, be thinking. 



clipclop2 said:


> He is obviously not afraid of her position or he wouldn't be living with her...


Assets aren't commingled yet, unless they live in a common law, community property marriage state, so there is not much way she can get her hands on his assets in most jurisdictions. One of my bandmates was once sued by a GF for breach of contract related to an alleged marriage promise, but it was thrown out.



clipclop2 said:


> And she makes more than him. So that's not too shabby either.


Guys don't shiv a get about what women make, so long as the woman isn't spending him into the ground.



clipclop2 said:


> Bunch of scared little boys running around here. Sad.


Waaaah!


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> In almost every society since that we have recorded records for has regulated marriage and required that marriages be recorded.
> 
> In some cases it was a religious authority who regulated marriage. In others it was the gov.
> 
> ...


The RCC got in the marriage business in 1215 AD, as a result of the 4th Council of Somethingorother; prior to that local customs of marriage with the appropriate marriage contracts were followed. The Roman State wasn't involved except for various Caesars' divorce pronouncements, like Augustine requiring an instant divorce in all cases of the wife's adultery.

Oddly enough, family law as it has evolved in the USA, is one area in which contracts pertaining to marriage have no validity. Look at the checkered recent history of prenups. They're all over the place. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.
> 
> If the OP's BF doesnt want to marry, I'm fine with that.
> 
> ...


Sounds like someone needs a cookie and a nap.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.


Psshh. lol 

Yeah, it's fear of powerful women... that's it. 

I'm wont remarry because I can't imagine any advantage to doing so. I couldn't care less whether a woman is "powerful" or not, whatever the hell that even means. Are you a "powerful woman"? What do you care whether someone else wants to get married again or not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Ripper said:


> Sounds like someone needs a cookie and a nap.


:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

norajane said:


> And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again?


I have. 



norajane said:


> Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


If he told her "it was an option" that doesn't mean that it's also "not" an option. Meaning, it could not happen. She did say he said he wants to marry her but it's been nearly 5 years and that has not happened. So she can either keep waiting or say Bye. She has also had a choice in the matter. 



clipclop2 said:


> The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.


I don't see it as that. Granted, there have been some remarks about how bad it would be to marry a lawyer and etc which I don't really care for but the fact is: many people do not want to get married. It isn't for everyone. And that's ok.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I can accept the desire to stay single. It's just these crockpot reasons ...

one issue with that you'll never get married again is it a kind of negative message to people you areo not open to the possibilities. 

the other thing is that when you end up meeting someone that you fall in love with sometimes those pronouncements just melt away into nothing. 

I think it's more important for people who are really screwed up can never get marry than four relatively normal people to decide that's the downside of marriage are stronger than the upside. someone mentioned the other day on one of the topics about the life expectancy of a man being reduced if he's not married. I mean if you're married to a shrew than having a longer life isn't a benefit for sure. but if we accept that most people go through life on autopilot then being on autopilot and being married seems to have a physical benefits for men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

norajane said:


> And would you tell your prospective dates that you will not marry again? And if so, would you tell her upfront, or after she's already fallen in love and created a life with you?
> 
> Because the OP is in a situation where her bf has _not _said he will never marry again, and has told her marriage _is _an option. It's like bait and switch, since he won't actually propose or want to marry, but he hasn't said that at all.


yes I would tell up front!


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> I can accept the desire to stay single. It's just these crockpot reasons ...
> 
> one issue with that you'll never get married again is it a kind of negative message to people you areo not open to the possibilities.
> 
> ...


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

two people meet later in life maybe both have had failed marriages.

What would be the reason to get married? what are the advantages to getting married as opposed to not getting married?

is it the peice of paper that says your married?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

clipclop2 said:


> I can accept the desire to stay single. It's just these crockpot reasons ...


Why does the fact that someone doesn't want to get married have to be labelled with "crockpot?" Not everyone thinks the same or wants to be married. I don't understand why some people cannot understand this at all. It's strange to me. if we were all the same and wanted the same things/thought the same, life sure would be boring. Also, its better for someone to know they don't want to marry and stay not married instead of going through motions/getting married when they really don't want to. That's not cool at all.



clipclop2 said:


> one issue with that you'll never get married again is it a kind of negative message to people you areo not open to the possibilities.


So the other option would be to lie to them and say you do want to get married when you totally don't? That's not ok in my book.

I have no problem at all with two people deciding to get married. But it irks me when people suggest that everyone should get married, that it's the only way, that anything less is not right. This planet is full of all kinds of people/relationships and that is what makes it so nice.


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## PAgirl (Sep 10, 2013)

Some of you are saying why she wants it so bad. Well, that's her prerogative. After going through a divorce, getting remarried is not important to me. But everyone is different so I don't think we should question why she wants it. On another note.. This topic brings up a question... if you are in a long term relationship and there is no ring, what do you call that person? I just think "boyfriend" sounds so juvenile!


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## Elane (Jul 15, 2014)

yes it sounds juvenile, but man friend sounds like my butler


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

"My lover" 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ariel_angel77 (May 23, 2014)

Why are we still debating on whether she would want to get married? She WANTS to get married. She did not ask us if we want to get married so that she can decide whether she really wants to. SHE wants to and came for advice on what to do when her partner does not want to. That's the issue. Not whether marriage is good or not.

And for those of you who think marriage is so bad or worthless, I'm sorry that you had such a bad first marriage, I really am, but some people like me and OP see how amazing and wonderful marriage is and the fact that it's joining two people together in "holy matrimony". You become one with that person. You are not one if you are not married. It's something God himself joins together. It's the most important thing you can do and it's the closest you can be to someone. If your marriage was so bad, then you obviously did not marry the right person and if you don't marry the right person, of course it's going to go bad. You joined yourself with someone who didn't truly love you or who you didn't truly love.

If you don't like marriage, fine, that's your choice, but OP does and that's the point here. That she does and her boyfriend is promising but not following through and that bothers her.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> "My lover"


And the traditional counterpart to that term is "My mistress."


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

PAgirl said:


> This topic brings up a question... if you are in a long term relationship and there is no ring, what do you call that person? I just think "boyfriend" sounds so juvenile!


Life partner????? That sounds gay that wouldn't work...



Elane said:


> yes it sounds juvenile, but man friend sounds like my butler






Machiavelli said:


> And the traditional counterpart to that term is "My mistress."



To think I wanted to get married because I didn't want to introduce my wife as my gf....

My lover/mistress sounds much better. Would of saved me from lots of headaches....:banghead::banghead:


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Aren't mismatches in expectations very common? At all ages and in lots of different circumstances?

I agree completely with those who say that this is OP's choice, just as what the SO thinks is best for him is his choice. If she really wants to get married, her choices are to 1) stick with the relationship and hope that he eventually agrees with her, and 2) leave the relationship in hopes of finding someone else who will want marriage.

The alternative is to stay with the SO and just go with the flow, accepting that marriage isn't on the horizon and may never be. This last doesn't seem to sit too well with OP.

(And don't we all mean 'crackpot' here? LOL)


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

Machiavelli said:


> truthitis2u, I'm not trying to be mean, but marrying a female attorney is only slightly less risky than playing Russian Roulette with a Colt automatic..


I see what you did there :rofl:


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## murphy5 (May 1, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> The men on this thread who believe they are so used and abused by marriage and who can't face the idea of marrying a powerful woman are wussies and impossible to respect.



on the other hand, maybe they just don't like the feeling of their balls being crushed by a disrespectful woman, or maybe a better characterization, by a woman _incapable_ of respect for their husband?


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## Omego (Apr 17, 2013)

Question for the men on this thread who say that marriage is just a contract and does not mean that the man is more committed to the relationship:

What would your reaction be if your daughter told you that she was planning on moving in with her boyfriend but that no plans for marriage had been discussed?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ariel_angel77 said:


> Why are we still debating on whether she would want to get married? She WANTS to get married. She did not ask us if we want to get married so that she can decide whether she really wants to. SHE wants to and came for advice on what to do when her partner does not want to. That's the issue. Not whether marriage is good or not.


I'm with you here.



ariel_angel77 said:


> And for those of you who think marriage is so bad or worthless, I'm sorry that you had such a bad first marriage, I really am,


You're starting to lose me here, with the presumptive first marriage assertions.



ariel_angel77 said:


> but some people like me and OP see how amazing and wonderful marriage is and the fact that it's joining two people together


That's a nice sentiment, you're getting me back.



ariel_angel77 said:


> in "holy matrimony".


You've lost me here, where is that unicorn.



ariel_angel77 said:


> You become one with that person. You are not one if you are not married.


I hope that doesn't happen, although it's nice to share ones life with your love. I would hate to become one with someone. That whole wearing matching shirts and all the rest seems a little creepy to me.



ariel_angel77 said:


> It's something God himself joins together.


That can't possibly be true.



ariel_angel77 said:


> It's the most important thing you can do and it's the closest you can be to someone.


It isn't necessarily the most important, and there is no guarantee that it will make you the closest you can be to someone.



ariel_angel77 said:


> If your marriage was so bad, then you obviously did not marry the right person and if you don't marry the right person, of course it's going to go bad. You joined yourself with someone who didn't truly love you or who you didn't truly love.


Lost me again, real life isn't that simple.



ariel_angel77 said:


> If you don't like marriage, fine, that's your choice, but OP does and that's the point here. That she does and her boyfriend is promising but not following through and that bothers her.


Well said.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Personal said:


> Although I'm not one of the men on this thread that is suggesting what you mention above.
> 
> As a man I can assure you, I would be fine if my daughters moved in with a boyfriend as long as they're consenting adults. I would be a hypocrite if I thought differently.


The OP is not a child. She is a grown woman, professional, mother. I am sure her dad has accepted the fact that she is shacking up with a man... Maybe even having sex...

When my daughter, now 10 graduates H.S. and goes to college, sex will be a part of that...


When my wife and I first moved in together we were 26. She didn't want me to answer the phone because it could have been her family...must of been before caller id...About a year later, she finally told them we were living together....They said they knew... When she asked them how they knew, they told her "easy.... You stopped asking for money. Plus your old enough to make your own decisions". Then her dad looked at me and said something like she's yours now... Married or not...


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Trickster said:


> The OP is not a child. She is a grown woman, professional, mother. I am sure her dad has accepted the fact that she is shacking up with a man... Maybe even having sex...
> 
> When my daughter, now 10 graduates H.S. and goes to college, sex will be a part of that...
> 
> ...


It's nice to know you agree with me.



Personal said:


> Although I'm not one of the men on this thread that is suggesting what you mention above.


That shown above was simply stating the fact that to date on this thread, I hadn't argued against marriage. I couldn't care less if people get married or don't, have polygamous, polyamorous, swinging, open heterosexual, homosexual, transgender and or asexual relationships. If someone finds something they are happy with and works, I say good on them.

That shown below was simply answering Omega's specific question as posted here.



Personal said:


> As a man I can assure you, I would be fine if my daughters moved in with a boyfriend as long as they're consenting adults. I would be a hypocrite if I thought differently.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Crockpot is crackpot through speech to text.

I am capable of respecting men. I do not respect men who operate on fear.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

When a couple gets a prenup before marriage, doesn't that mean that they don't have the confidence that the marriage will last?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trickster said:


> When a couple gets a prenup before marriage, doesn't that mean that they don't have the confidence that the marriage will last?


no,it means they are living in the real world and recognize that sometimes it's better to be prepared for anything.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trickster said:


> When a couple gets a prenup before marriage, doesn't that mean that they don't have the confidence that the marriage will last?


Not necessarily. It can mean that they want to stipulate some things that they have agreed upon. It's a modification to the standard marriage contract that the state uses.

Upon separation *by death *or divorce, the court will separate all of the marital property evenly. In order to avoid a court deciding what happens to your property attained during your marriage, you can use a prenuptial agreement.


Protect one spouse from the other's debts

Provide for children from previous relationships
Keep family property in the family


Protect your estate plan

Define property distribution upon divorce

Detail what responsibilities you have during the marriage 
There are numerous reasons for a prenuptial agreement. Below is a list of items commonly included in prenuptial agreements: 

Separate business 
Retirement benefits 
Income, deductions, and claims for filing your tax returns 
Management of household bills and expenses 
Management of joint bank accounts, if any 
Arrangement regarding investing in certain purchases or projects, like a house or business 
Management of credit card spending and payments 
Savings contributions 
Property distribution to the survivor, including life insurance, in the event of death 
Arranging putting one or the other through school 
Settlement of potential disagreements, such as using mediation or arbitration

See more at: What Can and Cannot be Included in Prenuptial Agreements - FindLaw


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Trickster said:


> When a couple gets a prenup before marriage, doesn't that mean that they don't have the confidence that the marriage will last?


Si vis pacem, para bellum


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Si vis pacem, para bellum


Expect the best but prepare for the worst?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Si vis pacem, para bellum


If you seek peace, prepare for war.


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## truthitis2u (Jul 12, 2014)

Well I didn't make it through all the posts but I did see a lot of judgemental people. Yes I will take care of him in his older age and who knows something could happen to me and he would have to take care of me. I think judging an attorney as a vile individual is dead wrong. There are some sharks out there but I pride myself on not being one. 

I did sit down with my BF and had a long discussion concerning my needs. We have agreed to have a commitment ceremony in March so we have no need to work on our prenups just yet. It will also keep our ex spouses from trying to take us to court for more money. I think this will solve our problems for our current situation. Since we both have money grubbing ex spouses that make our lives hell.

Thanks for all your post. Take care.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Not necessarily. It can mean that they want to stipulate some things that they have agreed upon. It's a modification to the standard marriage contract that the state uses.
> 
> Upon separation *by death *or divorce, the court will separate all of the marital property evenly. In order to avoid a court deciding what happens to your property attained during your marriage, you can use a prenuptial agreement.
> 
> ...




All the more reason to not get married.just keep everything separate to begin with...


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

truthitis2u said:


> Well I didn't make it through all the posts but I did see a lot of judgemental people. Yes I will take care of him in his older age and who knows something could happen to me and he would have to take care of me. I think judging an attorney as a vile individual is dead wrong. There are some sharks out there but I pride myself on not being one.


Just wanted to pop in and express that I am always shocked about how quickly and easily the general populace depersonalizes lawyers. A lot of lawyers are really, truly great people. Not all doctors are saints. Etc. 

Glad you were able to sit down and discuss this thoroughly with your BF and come to a kind of compromise! Good luck


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Has Mach been banned?

A prenup is not necessarily a bad thing. Realistically, marriages often fail. A prenup is simply realism from the beginning.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Omego said:


> Question for the men on this thread who say that marriage is just a contract and does not mean that the man is more committed to the relationship:
> 
> What would your reaction be if your daughter told you that she was planning on moving in with her boyfriend but that no plans for marriage had been discussed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This would have bothered me at one time when I was married yes. I no longer believe in marriage so if they choose this I would support them.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Omego said:


> Question for the men on this thread who say that marriage is just a contract and does not mean that the man is more committed to the relationship:
> 
> What would your reaction be if your daughter told you that she was planning on moving in with her boyfriend but that no plans for marriage had been discussed?


Should I have a reaction? I don't think I would.

The closest thing I might think is "smart move". You can't truly know a person until you've lived with them imo, so why marry them first?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> This would have bothered me at one time when I was married yes. I no longer believe in marriage so if they choose this I would support them.


I would not. Not for two young people. 

To me marriage is about raising children and accumulating assets. Yes, it is so much more, but those two are its very practical functions.


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Omego said:


> Question for the men on this thread who say that marriage is just a contract and does not mean that the man is more committed to the relationship:
> 
> What would your reaction be if your daughter told you that she was planning on moving in with her boyfriend but that no plans for marriage had been discussed?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd breathe a sigh of relief!

I'd be happy I raised an intelligent young woman, wise enough to understand that marriage is a different beast in 2014.

Personally, I don't think anyone should get married before having plenty of sex and living with the person. Statistically, the odds are against you...stack the deck where you can.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Why demand a government sanctioned marriage? You can get married without involving the government.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

How can your exes go after more?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Should I have a reaction? I don't think I would.
> 
> The closest thing I might think is "smart move". You can't truly know a person until you've lived with them imo, so why marry them first?


x2

I would be happy for her. Always LIVE with the person FIRST, before marriage (think of it as a test drive).

Until you live with someone, you simply don't know them (is what I believe)


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

jld said:


> I would not. Not for two young people.
> 
> To me marriage is about raising children and accumulating assets. Yes, it is so much more, but those two are its very practical functions.


And people need a marriage to do that?

Years ago before my wife and I married, we split up... When that happened, I actually had spending money. So I put money down on a home BY MYSELF...

After 6 months my wife wanted to get back together... After about a year, She convinced me to sell to improve our standard of living. We have been in debt ever since...

Marriage only works when goals are aligned...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

jld said:


> I would not. Not for two young people.
> 
> To me marriage is about raising children and accumulating assets. Yes, it is so much more, but those two are its very practical functions.


Well I thought so to till my x left me and our kids for another dude. 1/2 the assets along with her. so no I won't be encouraging them to get married but I will attend it and keep my mouth shut if that's what's they decide to do


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> She’s an attorney. He’s a doctor. There is a possibility that she earns as much or more than he does.
> 
> A life-long commitment is an emotional need for some people so that they feel emotionally safe.


Marriage is a legal contract with respect to the State. Commitment is a matter of character. No legal contract can ever create character, it can only spell out the repercussions of the failure to apply it. 

OP ... Why do you need the legal contract and why does your partner oppose it? You may as well address this honestly and openly. 
<Seems like you have already done this ... a Commitment Ceremony sounds nice> Kindest Regards!


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## lonelyhusband321 (Feb 18, 2014)

Just tell him that you've spent (not wasted) enough of YOUR life playing the "Will he - Won't he" game, and that it's just not acceptable.

Then leave!


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## cuchulain36 (Jul 8, 2014)

If you're both together, building a life and happy why ruin a perfectly good thing by getting married?

Seriously though, for a 50 year old man to get married again he really has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by getting married. He already has everything he wants, by marrying you he's now entitling you to half of everything he's built in his life, half of all future earnings, possibly his retirement and/or pension, and his property or business.

If you're happy why the need for a contract basically stating you have him over the barrel in the event you want to end the marriage? (which is what marriage really is today, I don't know why any man would marry today, really no reason to).


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

cuchulain36 said:


> If you're both together, building a life and happy why ruin a perfectly good thing by getting married?
> 
> Seriously though, for a 50 year old man to get married again he really has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by getting married. He already has everything he wants, by marrying you he's now entitling you to half of everything he's built in his life, half of all future earnings, possibly his retirement and/or pension, and his property or business.
> 
> If you're happy why the need for a contract basically stating you have him over the barrel in the event you want to end the marriage (which is what marriage really is today, I don't know why any man would marry today, really no reason to).


Why are you spouting off this nonsense? It has nothing to do with the OP and her bf. 

She's the one who earns more. She's younger so if there were a divorce she is the one who would be paying alimony for a long time.

He would also have a right to half of her pension, her retirement and her property and business.

Geezzzz


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## cuchulain36 (Jul 8, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Why are you spouting off this nonsense? It has nothing to do with the OP and her bf.
> 
> She's the one who earns more. She's younger so if there were a divorce she is the one who would be paying alimony for a long time.
> 
> ...


Women very very rarely have to pay alimony and typically get the marital home and assets. You're ignoring the enormous bias against men in the courts. It's real and it exists, a man typically has a lot more to lose in a divorce than a woman.

My post had a lot to do with the OP, if they're together and happy why the need for the marital contract?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

cuchulain36 said:


> Women very very rarely have to pay alimony and typically get the marital home and assets. You're ignoring the enormous bias against men in the courts. It's real and it exists, a man typically has a lot more to lose in a divorce than a woman.




This thread is NOT about WOMEN. It's one woman asking about something in her life. Your post had no relevance to her life at all.

The fact is that if she marries him, she's probably the one who would have most liability.



cuchulain36 said:


> My post had a lot to do with the OP, if they're together and happy why the need for the marital contract?


No your post had no relevance to the OP because it negated her reasonable desire to be married and it used an argument for why your bf would be stupid to get married.. an argument that was not relevant to her and her bf.

While marriage means nothing to you, it apparently means something to the OP. She has the right to her beliefs and feelings. 

Actually marriage means a lot to a lot of people, both men and women. That's why people get married.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

cuchulain36 said:


> Women very very rarely have to pay alimony and typically get the marital home and assets. You're ignoring the enormous bias against men in the courts. It's real and it exists, a man typically has a lot more to lose in a divorce than a woman.


Most people are low earners and even poor. Most people rent so no one gets the house that they do not own. Most people live paycheck to paycheck so most people have no assets.

Now for couples who are in an income bracket where they have a home and some assets, it's untrue that the woman usually get the home and the marital assets. they are split 50/50. That's the law. If she gets the house it's usually because of a few things: there is equity in the house and in the settlement he agrees that she gets the house with no equity, she buys him out by letting him take the more of the rest of the assets, or there is a clause that she gets to stay in the house until the children are grown and then it has to be sold and they split the differenced.


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## bjchristian (Jul 23, 2014)

truthitis2u said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I have been with my BF for over 4 years and yet he hasn't proposed. I made it very clear to him a couple years ago that I wasn't going to be that woman that waits 5 years to get married to someone and now I find myself in that place.
> 
> ...


Depends on how committed you guys are. He may feel as many have stated (I only read the OP) that things get worse after you are married or he's concerned with that. He probably has baggage from his first divorce.

If you guys are committed, I think then it depends how important the rites of passage are to you? a piece of paper or a vow is only as strong as the two participants and the relationship they share. However, I'm aware that most do not share this open concept view that I am open to. In the end it's a very personal decision that you need to decide or talk with a professional who can guide you. Free advice could hurt you more than help you, b/c we don't really see the entire picture of what is going on (even an op can only convey part of it).


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