# Why are middle aged men such players?



## southern wife

Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


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## Married but Happy

Marriage?


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## Married but Happy

To elaborate, when I got back into the dating scene in my mid-40s, a great many women were jaded, liars, desperate, players, or users as well. Many were cynical and out to have fun at any cost, and perhaps hoped to meet someone decent along the way. It's a numbers game - there are a lot of frogs of both genders who must be tossed back in the pond before finding one worth kissing. The good ones are out there, just hidden by the decoys.


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## Amplexor

I'm one and I resent your statement. I'd like to stay and argue but I've got to figure out a way to finance this Vette without my wife figuring out how much I spent on it.


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## Deejo

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


We meet on Wednesday nights via NetMeeting and set the agenda for the weekend.

Perspective.

If you are a man coming out of a marriage where you were taken for granted, rationed sex, and lost your self respect ... and then find yourself in the 40+ dating pool where if you don't have a huge beer gut, and are gainfully employed you find yourself surprisingly getting attention all over the place, some men ... some ... may become 'bad actors' when it comes to dating and sex.

For the record, same applies to women.

To be successful, you need to have a plan, know what you want, and be able to get the right 'read' on someone relatively early on if you don't think they are being entirely forthcoming.

So let's be clear here, are you the victim of outright chicanery and lying, or have you thought your dating relationships were going in one direction while your date was going in another or had no such expectation?


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## toonaive

Deejo said:


> We meet on Wednesday nights via NetMeeting and set the agenda for the weekend.
> 
> Perspective.
> 
> If you are a man coming out of a marriage where you were taken for granted, rationed sex, and lost your self respect ... and then find yourself in the 40+ dating pool where if you don't have a huge beer gut, and are gainfully employed you find yourself surprisingly getting attention all over the place, some men ... some ... may become 'bad actors' when it comes to dating and sex.
> 
> For the record, same applies to women.
> 
> To be successful, you need to have a plan, know what you want, and be able to get the right 'read' on someone relatively early on if you don't think they are being entirely forthcoming.
> 
> So let's be clear here, are you the victim of outright chicanery and lying, or have you thought your dating relationships were going in one direction while your date was going in another or had no such expectation?


Absolutely! :iagree:


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## richardsharpe

Good evening southern wife
Where are you finding these men? Maybe you should look somewhere else. 

Many "good" middle-aged men are happily married, so there is some real selection effect. Still there should be some good men who have left "bad" wives. 




southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


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## DvlsAdvc8

Not sure about the lying and cheating, but I'll offer why some have thought me a player: Their expectations are not my reality.

A key difference between my life now versus when I was married, is that I'm not catering to someone else's wants. I'm pursuing my wants and let her pursue hers. I don't spend my time deciphering her wants or trying to comply. So some have thought me a player when what she expected is not what I did, as if I must divine her expectations and conform to them.

I'm not lying or cheating or playing. I'm doing what I want. If what I'm doing isn't what she wants, it's up to her to walk. If she wants to talk about what she wants, and it's not what I want, I'm walking.

The bulk of my experience with women who have hostility against me, thinking I'm a player or deceptive, has been the result of their own unfounded assumptions. Their expectations, whatever they are, are not my reality. I didn't agree to them.


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## Ikaika

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:



Whoa now SW, anyway to talk you off of that ledge. Granted, I'm older so I believe I'm exempt. Us old men are clueless. 

So talk to us what's going on?


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## askari

I am middle aged.....half century + a few days!

Sexless marriage but stay because my children mean more to me but when they leave home in 4-6 years time so will I and I too will be on the dating scene again.

I'll be looking for an 'honest' lady who, like me has done the marriage + children bit. Someone who is interested in me and my needs (enjoys giving BJ's!) , accepts me for who I am, presses all the right buttons etc.....and in return she will get a man who will do anything for her, respect her, love her...etc.

So Southern Wife....fancy a date in 2021?!!


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## NextTimeAround

Can have some examples of "playerish" behavior?

When I was single, I got a few dates..... but never a deluge.


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## ChristianGrey

Everybody is playing, not just the middle aged.

You'd be surprised to know what the younglings get up to.


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## SamuraiJack

I enjoyed the attention of MANY women when I became divorced.
I was always straight with them that I was sleeping with them because I wanted to.
One of the benefits of being the partner of a WAW is that you arent generally viewed as defective. 
If you can show them that you have done ANY psych work, that makes you very attractive.

I DID play for a bit, but I caught myself and decided to make a set of rules around it to make sure expectations were agreed upon.
...Then I met my GF.

Sorry folks...playtime is over.


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## alexm

SamuraiJack said:


> I enjoyed the attention of MANY women when I became divorced.
> I was always straight with them that I was sleeping with them because I wanted to.
> One of the benefits of being the partner of a WAW is that you arent generally viewed as defective.
> If you can show them that you have done ANY psych work, that makes you very attractive.
> 
> I DID play for a bit, but I caught myself and decided to make a set of rules around it to make sure expectations were agreed upon.
> ...Then I met my GF.
> 
> Sorry folks...playtime is over.


Same here, though I was in my mid-30's when I got divorced. I didn't expect or imagine the amount of women who came calling, many of whom I didn't expect would. But I was in a good position, as far as divorced men go - the marriage breakup wasn't my fault, I had no kids, the ex wife moved out of the country. Boom. 34 year old single employed male with no dependants, his own house and 2 cars.

The thing is, I wasn't interested in playing around. Go figure. I also wasn't looking for a second marriage, either. I was working on myself, my business, and clearing up any loose ends I had laying around. Went on a couple of dates where nothing happened, and just settled into an existence where I had an active social life, but also enjoyed just being on my own for a while.

I think, had I been 45+, I would have handled it all very differently. I don't think I would have been a player, per se, but I definitely would have had my fun, with no expectations of settling down again.

Now, I'm reluctant to suggest that it has nothing to do with one's age or gender, as per OP's suggestion, but the likelihood that I, at least, would have fit that mould is high. There was no particular reason that I, as a 34 year old single divorced male, had no interest in playing the field. I just didn't. Perhaps because I felt I was still young and was in no rush. Had I been a bit older, then maybe I would have had that ominous clock ticking over my shoulder and have been slightly more jaded.

But it's also very much a personality thing. My current wife was single for close to a year before we met, having come out of a ~4 year LTR. In the time that she was single, she went on many dates, and WAS looking. Her personality is such that she didn't want to be alone, or work on herself, etc. whereas I was content to not be on the hunt after coming out of a 14 year LTR/marriage. She didn't want to be alone, I embraced it. Very different personalities.


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## Jellybeans

What age is considered "middle-aged?"

SW - not sure if you are doing any online shopping (I mean, dating, lol) but maybe try a few different ones out. There may be a lot of duds you encounter but you have remember, you won't gel with everyone.

Keep on with the keep on.

You're a hot mama so I've no doubt you'll meet someone great in due time.


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## Jellybeans

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage?


Ha!


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## Wolf1974

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage?


:iagree:


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## Wolf1974

I would add that when I became single again I was amazed at how different things are in the dating world compared when I was in my 20's. For a time period I was trying to make myself whole again by being with as many women as I could. Online dating makes that easy to accomplish. After I moved out of that phase and got back to myself I saw what you saw except in the women I was dating online. Liars cheaters and users. 

All you can do is move slow. It only has to be right once but you will likely have to jump through a lot of hoops to find that one. Online dating isn't for the faint of heart. As you do it more you get better at recognizing the players. I fell for some crap early on that I would never fall for now but I was still learning. You will too


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## Healer

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage?


And he wraps the thread with one simple word.


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## Healer

After being cheated on by my now ex-wife (I'm 39 btw), I have unwittingly become a player of sorts. I haven't cheated...but I've dated multiple women at once, and moved from one to the next.

I was NEVER like that before marriage.


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## Healer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not sure about the lying and cheating, but I'll offer why some have thought me a player: Their expectations are not my reality.
> 
> A key difference between my life now versus when I was married, is that I'm not catering to someone else's wants. I'm pursuing my wants and let her pursue hers. I don't spend my time deciphering her wants or trying to comply. So some have thought me a player when what she expected is not what I did, as if I must divine her expectations and conform to them.
> 
> I'm not lying or cheating or playing. I'm doing what I want. If what I'm doing isn't what she wants, it's up to her to walk. If she wants to talk about what she wants, and it's not what I want, I'm walking.
> 
> The bulk of my experience with women who have hostility against me, thinking I'm a player or deceptive, has been the result of their own unfounded assumptions. Their expectations, whatever they are, are not my reality. I didn't agree to them.


Gotta say, I like this and it rings true for me.


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## Ikaika

Jellybeans said:


> What age is considered "middle-aged?"
> 
> SW - not sure if you are doing any online shopping (I mean, dating, lol) but maybe try a few different ones out. There may be a lot of duds you encounter but you have remember, you won't gel with everyone.
> 
> Keep on with the keep on.
> 
> You're a hot mama so I've no doubt you'll meet someone great in due time.



Not me I'm old


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## Deejo

Ikaika said:


> Not me I'm old


But you have a youthful spirit ... and you surf ... which makes you a playa by proxy.


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## Jellybeans

What age is considered middle-age? 50?

30?

:rofl:


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## Deejo

Jellybeans said:


> What age is considered middle-age? 50?
> 
> 30?
> 
> :rofl:


38 to 55, it's a curve.


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## tulsy

askari said:


> I am middle aged.....half century + a few days!
> 
> *Sexless marriage but stay because my children mean more to me* but when they leave home in 4-6 years time so will I and I too will be on the dating scene again.
> 
> I'll be looking for an 'honest' lady who, like me has done the marriage + children bit. Someone who is interested in me and my needs (enjoys giving BJ's!) , accepts me for who I am, presses all the right buttons etc.....and in return she will get a man who will do anything for her, respect her, love her...etc.
> 
> So Southern Wife....fancy a date in 2021?!!


Mean more to you than what?

Anyways...
I hear lots of women complain that guys are players. Some of those complaining are players themselves. Others have no/low morals, and will fool around with married men (I see a lot of this in the financial district). Middle-aged men who have experienced this, maybe been married and divorced, are jaded and many of them no longer give a damn.

A lot of these guys would love to find the right girl but until she comes along, they'll take whats available. Women do the same thing.

It seems to be the new normal, for men and women.


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## Healer

Deejo said:


> 38 to 55, it's a curve.


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## Rowan

I don't know what sorts of things SW has been running into, but a biggie that I've encountered lately has been 30-something guys describing themselves as "single". Apparently, "single" is now code for "unhappily married". Now, I consider myself fairly up to speed on basic vocabulary - reasonable IQ, college education, fairly erudite, English as a first language, all of that. But I really never would have guessed that the word single could mean either "recently separated on a trial basis" or "married and still living with my wife".


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## Almostrecovered

why do middle aged women attract players?


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## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> 38 to 55, it's a curve.



I just got in within the official TAM curve. I guess I have two years left, whew.


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## SimplyAmorous

I find this thread very disheartening ... not at all surprised by the responses though..... Every so often I tell my H he *can't* die on me .. I am a realist.. I wouldn't expect anything good to come along BECAUSE people simply have too much baggage after painful relationships, being betrayed, etc.. 

Even if they were hopeful/ loving ..even Romantic at one time...Lived to give their best.. intentions honorable... after being beat down for years..... they LEARN , for self preservation ...*how to NOT CARE ANYMORE.*.. some never allow themselves to OPEN UP again to anything vulnerable.. they despise it...and living becomes "What's in it for me?"... and if the woman isn't on board with that...."Adios sweetheart !"....



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not sure about the lying and cheating, but I'll offer why some have thought me a player: *Their expectations are not my reality.*
> 
> A key difference between my life now versus when I was married, is that *I'm not catering to someone else's wants*. *I'm pursuing my wants *and let her pursue hers.* I don't spend my time deciphering her wants or trying to comply.* So some have thought me a player when what she expected is not what I did, as if I must divine her expectations and conform to them.
> 
> I'm not lying or cheating or playing. *I'm doing what I want*. If what I'm doing isn't what she wants, it's up to her to walk. *If she wants to talk about what she wants, and it's not what I want, I'm walking.*
> 
> The bulk of my experience with women who have hostility against me, thinking I'm a player or deceptive, has been the result of their own unfounded assumptions. *Their expectations, whatever they are, are not my reality. *I didn't agree to them.


Case in point ^^^ ...another Independent seeking his own.. does this sound like someone with relationship potential... Life is about WHAT I WANT AT EVERY MOMENT... I will use you, and toss you aside...time for new.. feelings don't matter, they are relative, and subjective, I am not my Brother keeper and I sure as hell ain't your BF... how stupid of you to have a romantic notion just because I stuck my di** in you.. that's what I get from this post...

Oh women.. why can't we see those who can so easily separate Feelings, emotions, Love .. and sex are JUST NOT relationship "give & take" material.. unfortunately .. this is what our Hooking up culture has bred.. and will continue to breed in droves...



> *Healer said*: *After being cheated on by my now ex-wife (I'm 39 btw), I have unwittingly become a player of sorts. I haven't cheated...but I've dated multiple women at once, and moved from one to the next.
> 
> I was NEVER like that before marriage.*


Ya know..there was a time when people actually cared about other people.. Just a story... our neighbors across the field.... Farmer wife.. her H became an alcoholic & took off, they had 5 kids.. would you believe HIS BROTHER stepped in that family, he raised those 5 kids AS HIS OWN till he died tragically earlier this year ....I never even knew this wasn't their biological father....till one of the daughter in laws told me... I was very touched to how this man stepped up like that.. of course he must have cared enough about her too... just saying. ..

Some are just wonderful men.. but they are few & far between.. if a woman has one of these.. she better hang on to him with all her might and treat him like a King.


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## Amplexor

Deejo said:


> 38 to 55, it's a curve.


Crap, I am over the hill.

Oh well, at least I have the Vette. And my youngest wasn't overly upset when I told him a college education is overrated anyway.


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## Wolf1974

SimplyAmorous said:


> I find this thread very disheartening ... not at all surprised by the responses though..... Every so often I tell my H he *can't* die on me .. I am a realist.. I wouldn't expect anything good to come along BECAUSE people simply have too much baggage after painful relationships, being betrayed, etc..
> 
> Even if they were hopeful, loving even Romantic at one time...try to give their best.... after being beat down... they LEARN , for self preservation ...how to NOT CARE ANYMORE... some never allow themselves to OPEN UP again to anything vulnerable.. they despise it...and living becomes "What's in it for me?"... and if the woman isn't on board with that...."Adios sweetheart !"....
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point ^^^ ...another Independent seeking his own.. does this sound like someone with relationship potential... Life is about WHAT I WANT AT EVERY MOMENT... I will use you, and toss you away , feelings don't matter, they are relative, and subjective, I am not my Brother keeper and I sure as hell ain't your BF... how stupid of you to have a romantic notion just because I stuck my di** in you.. that's what I get from this post...
> 
> Oh women.. why can't we see those who can so easily separate Feelings, emotions, Love .. and sex are JUST NOT relationship "give & take" material.. unfortunately .. this is what our Hooking up culture has bred.. and will continue to breed in droves...
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know..there was a time when people actually cared about other people.. Just a story... our neighbors across the field.... Farmer wife.. her H became an alcoholic & took off, they had 5 kids.. would you believe HIS BROTHER stepped in that family, he raised those 5 kids AS HIS OWN till he died tragically earlier this year ....I never even knew this wasn't their biological father....till one of the daughter in laws told me... I was very touched to how this man stepped up like that.. of course he must have cared enough about her too... just saying. ..
> 
> *Some are just wonderful men.. but they are few & far between.. if a woman has one of these.. she better hang on to him with all her might and treat him like a King.*


unfortunately with the me first culture that's just not going to happen. I do have a handful of male friends who have wonderful wives. I mean I would have given anything for my x to be like they are but when you choose badly you get bad results 

Good men and women are married to one another
Good men thrown back by bad women are now in self protection mode
Good women thrown back by bad men are either in self protection mode or struggling with the good men thrown back
Bad men and bad women....we'll they just deserve one another so no issue with that


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## ConanHub

Testosterone poisoning?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous,

TAM is a small and likely bias sample of men in the world. One has to consider why people come here. This of course is hoping you and your H have many more years together. And more importantly there is the "cyber me v. the real me", I think you would find many of these folks to be very different IRL. 

I am of course the odd ball on TAM and often wonder why I'm here. However, if I found myself single, I would date again but not consider anyone serious enough for marriage. The reason is less about them. It is more about considering how unfair it would be to expect a non-biological partner to suddenly have to deal with the needs of my oldest son. Plus, at my age, I'm not exactly a catch, but I'm very comfortable with myself.


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## Rowan

Amplexor said:


> Crap, I am over the hill.


Imagine how I feel. I hadn't really considered myself middle aged. I just turned 38!


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## vellocet

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


Since I'm not a cheater, and far from a player, I can only give you a guess. 

I'm probably what you consider middle aged. Never cheated on a woman, never been the player type. I'm divorced.

My guess is these men have been in similar situations than I and decided to handle their new found freedom on the dating scene differently from myself.

Could be they have been royally screwed over with divorce, custody, etc, and decided to say to themselves, "F it, I'm done being nice".

Me, I simply chose not to engage in commitment. I'm not a player, don't really go looking for dates, and when the situation arises, anyone that wants to see me will know up front that I'm not looking for a relationship.

So as far as these other men, could be, but not a guarantee, that they had bad experiences and decided to be selfish now.


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## SamuraiJack

Wolf1974 said:


> unfortunately with the me first culture that's just not going to happen. I do have a handful of male friends who have wonderful wives. I mean I would have given anything for my x to be like they are but when you choose badly you get bad results
> 
> Good men and women are married to one another
> Good men thrown back by bad women are now in self protection mode
> Good women thrown back by bad men are either in self protection mode or struggling with the good men thrown back
> Bad men and bad women....we'll they just deserve one another so no issue with that


Sometimes you make the right choice, but the person changes on you in a "not so good way".


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## DvlsAdvc8

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ya know..there was a time when people actually cared about other people.. Just a story... our neighbors across the field.... Farmer wife.. her H became an alcoholic & took off, they had 5 kids.. would you believe HIS BROTHER stepped in that family, he raised those 5 kids AS HIS OWN till he died tragically earlier this year ....I never even knew this wasn't their biological father....till one of the daughter in laws told me... I was very touched to how this man stepped up like that.. of course he must have cared enough about her too... just saying. ..
> 
> Some are just wonderful men.. but they are few & far between.. if a woman has one of these.. she better hang on to him with all her might and treat him like a King.


That is one perspective. When I analyze it however, I don't see "caring" vs "not caring". I see two people, with the most basic right of pursuing their interests. There is absolutely nothing wrong with pursuing one's interests, whatever they may be. That this is undeniably true and essential to liberty exposes a problem with your context: the perception that a male pursuing his wants is bad and implies dishonesty, while a female pursuing her wants is good, with no such implication. It's assumed he must be dishonest and careless, while she is honest and caring. It's all crap.

While surely bad men do exist, actively lying and stealing - that is not what I'm referring to. What I find is what women often characterize as a "bad man" is simply a man who is not complying with a woman's wants. A man who pursues wants that differ from hers. Why do we give her interests greater weight and automatically presume his wants to be evil? We are equally entitled to seek our happiness in the manner we see fit. I do not exist solely to serve some woman's interest. You mistake "want" or "interests" as inherently evil or lesser to altruism - yet unwanted altruism is simply forced servitude - want must take priority. I may want or have a strong interest in the well being of my sister's children should she pass. I may want to take care of my mother if she became ill. Wants can be altruistic. I do not reference it solely in terms of self-gain. I may want to stay and work out differences in a poor relationship... then again, I may not. What no man ought do, is allow a woman's wants to subvert his own wants. It is a recipe for disaster and dissatisfaction. If you don't WANT to do a thing, you ought not do it simply because someone else wants a thing. It is for this simple reason of differing wants, and my refusal to obey her expectations if they conflict with my wants, that some women have thought me a "bad man". I'm no worse for pursuing my wants, than they are for pursuing theirs, and I'm certainly not "bad" because they do not align. 

The majority of women who believe me a player, do so because I didn't comply with their expectation - their wants. I have no moral duty to. I have no moral duty to determine what they're expectations are even. I only have a duty to be true. Her assumptions are hers.

I don't want to be treated like a King, or to treat her as a Queen. I want no ruling or subservient context at all. It is not my moral duty to make sure she gets what she wants at the expense of my wants. I made that mistake already, and thankfully woke up from that nightmare.


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## Deejo

Rowan said:


> Imagine how I feel. I hadn't really considered myself middle aged. I just turned 38!


Only threw that age in there so I don't feel guilty about going after women a decade younger than me. If I think of them as middle aged, it's all good.

But it's a totally scientific range ... totally.


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## 2ntnuf

How many men look at their SIL in a sexual manner? Yuk. Makes me wonder if some of those children might have been his and that's why their supposed biological father left? Sorry for bringing up a negative alternative view. It had to be said.


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## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> Only threw that age in there so I don't feel guilty about going after women a decade younger than me. If I think of them as middle aged, it's all good.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's a totally scientific range ... totally.



If I were into the dating scene, my metric for a date - can they recall any Gilligan's island episodes or do they recall when Dolly Madi$on bakery advertised on TV (that last one, tis the season). Yes, I have low bar, not a scientific one.


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## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> I find this thread very disheartening ... not at all surprised by the responses though..... Every so often I tell my H he *can't* die on me .. I am a realist.. I wouldn't expect anything good to come along BECAUSE people simply have too much baggage after painful relationships, being betrayed, etc..
> 
> Even if they were hopeful/ loving ..even Romantic at one time...Lived to give their best.. intentions honorable... after being beat down for years..... they LEARN , for self preservation ...*how to NOT CARE ANYMORE.*.. some never allow themselves to OPEN UP again to anything vulnerable.. they despise it...and living becomes "What's in it for me?"... and if the woman isn't on board with that...."Adios sweetheart !"....
> 
> 
> 
> Case in point ^^^ ...another Independent seeking his own.. does this sound like someone with relationship potential... Life is about WHAT I WANT AT EVERY MOMENT... I will use you, and toss you aside...time for new.. feelings don't matter, they are relative, and subjective, I am not my Brother keeper and I sure as hell ain't your BF... how stupid of you to have a romantic notion just because I stuck my di** in you.. that's what I get from this post...
> 
> Oh women.. why can't we see those who can so easily separate Feelings, emotions, Love .. and sex are JUST NOT relationship "give & take" material.. unfortunately .. this is what our Hooking up culture has bred.. and will continue to breed in droves...
> 
> 
> 
> Ya know..there was a time when people actually cared about other people.. Just a story... our neighbors across the field.... Farmer wife.. her H became an alcoholic & took off, they had 5 kids.. would you believe HIS BROTHER stepped in that family, he raised those 5 kids AS HIS OWN till he died tragically earlier this year ....I never even knew this wasn't their biological father....till one of the daughter in laws told me... I was very touched to how this man stepped up like that.. of course he must have cared enough about her too... just saying. ..
> 
> Some are just wonderful men.. but they are few & far between.. if a woman has one of these.. she better hang on to him with all her might and treat him like a King.


I realize that it may sound horrible to you SA, but treating people poorly, or like objects never has been my goal. Treating myself and what I want from my life as a priority, has been.

If someone wants the best of me, they need to earn it. Doesn't change the fact that I remain open, honest, and forthright with anyone I am involved with.
It is absolutely about getting what I want, but not at someone elses expense.

I've written about it before, being a good man, sometimes means you look like a sh!t heel. I have broken up with some wonderful women, we had fulfilling consensual relationships, intimate relationships, but the relationships ran their course. 

Although it is my hope that neither you nor your husband ever find yourselves single, by nature of who you are, you would invariably attract that RIGHT person. Consequently you would probably also attract plenty of others who are simply less right. And as long as everyone is honest about that, then no harm no foul.


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## happy as a clam

SimplyAmorous said:


> Every so often I tell my H he *can't* die on me .. I am a realist..




SA... I tell my man the same thing almost daily. There simply is NO replacement for him. Not in any way, shape or form.  I simply cannot EVEN imagine searching, looking, trying to meet someone else to take his place. At that point, that's when I think I'd head out to Dogtown and spend the rest of my life volunteering for rescue animals!! (GREAT organization -- Best Friends Dogtown | Best Friends Animal Society)

I would be devastated without him. But I would go on. But I would be devastated without him. But I would go on... (lather, rinse, repeat, etc.)

I agree with the rest of your entire post, btw. Just had to address this point :smthumbup:.


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## happy as a clam

Amplexor said:


> Crap, I am over the hill.
> 
> Oh well, at least I have the Vette. And my youngest wasn't overly upset when I told him a college education is overrated anyway.


No worries Amp. You're all set:


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## SpinDaddy

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


Howdy Ms. Southern:

A couple running theories I’ve had are:

Anti-selection. It’s a statistical and actuarial notion but the idea is by middle age you will have more people on the market with “issues” because the “bad apples” have effectively been thrown back in the pot but the good ones have not.

By middle age and going forward, the law of supply and demand begins to favor men.

The mid-life crisis tends to hit men with a “this is your last chance to get what you’ve always dreamed of” mindset while women tend to be more of that mindset earlier in life.

It is easier for a middle aged man to date down in age than a comparably aged woman and many men do – whether that is right or not is another matter.

In their earlier years, aside from physical attractiveness and personality, men are primarily judged upon their potential. Men who’ve moved up the “attractiveness” bell curve and find themselves on the open market in middle age are often prone to cynicism by the turn of circumstances. More than a few choose to capitalize on that.

In terms of male v. female attractiveness factors e.g., “hotness” v. “overall package”, time favors men.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Ikaika said:


> SimplyAmorous,
> 
> *TAM is a small and likely bias sample of men in the world. One has to consider why people come here. This of course is hoping you and your H have many more years together. And more importantly there is the "cyber me v. the real me", I think you would find many of these folks to be very different IRL*.


 Of course it is biased.. but we see it in real life too....I have single friends who haven't been able to find something sustainable either in mid life.. though they too have their baggage, I had one of the BF's calling me up to tell me he couldn't deal with my friend anymore , he was worried about her... ...he had to break it off or he'd have another heart attack (seriously).. oh since then they were back on, back off X 10.... what a roller coaster! 

Her marrying a philandering A-hole in her youth screwed with her mind so bad.. she's can't trust.....she was/ is suspicious of every little thing a man says -then turns around & builds a case against him ..... doesn't matter how much I talk to her, reason with her (it's exhausting for me even)... 

On his end...he feels..."I don't need this sh** -it's too much stress"...and all she sees is ... "If he loved me, he'd stick around, we'l work it out....why did he tell me he loved me??".. 

I assume most regular posters give a true view of what they are made of here.. The way I speak, reason, feel is all the authentic me.. I am sensitive, I believe in tough love, I have weaknesses, I have a temper...I am probably a hypocrite for liking porn. whatever..it's all authentic. 



> *I am of course the odd ball on TAM and often wonder why I'm here. However, if I found myself single, I would date again but not consider anyone serious enough for marriage. The reason is less about them. It is more about considering how unfair it would be to expect a non-biological partner to suddenly have to deal with the needs of my oldest son. Plus, at my ag*e, I'm not exactly a catch, but I'm very comfortable with myself.


 I have resolved the fact (as I feel stupid being here sometimes too -do I have nothing better to do with my time !).....I am here because I LIKE to talk about marriage, all it's emotional anything/ everything ...... I hold torch for it... I have a more Traditional view...which doesn't win me any brownie points with posters here..... but there is still a place for this way of being / living..even in modern society. 

The ones that don't think they are catches probably make better catches ..



> *happy as a clam said:*
> 
> *SA... I tell my man the same thing almost daily. There simply is NO replacement for him. Not in any way, shape or form. I simply cannot EVEN imagine searching, looking, trying to meet someone else to take his place*.


 Hey that's cool.. almost daily !! I might say it once or twice a month ... When I feel alienated with my views here..... I think "OMG I have nothing in common with the human race anymore.. I have been living under a rock!"...then he comes home, I'll grab him & ask "how in the hell did I find you !"'.. ...I've analyzed further...asking if he thinks we just rubbed off on each other -because we think so much alike....(could be some truth to that)..... then I've asked if he is just pacifying me -like







would think men do... to keep the woman happy.. he lays that one to rest.. it's not that. .. 

I wouldn't be happy if that were the case anyway.. that wouldn't spell a 'giving" love to me but something "coerced" /pressured...it would taint it all.


----------



## michzz

Deejo said:


> We meet on Wednesday nights via NetM
> If you are a man coming out of a marriage where you were taken for granted, rationed sex, and lost your self respect ... and then find yourself in the 40+ dating pool where *if you don't have a huge beer gut,* and are gainfully employed you find yourself surprisingly getting attention all over the place, some men ... some ... may become 'bad actors' when it comes to dating and sex.
> 
> For the record, same applies to women.


Hey, even without rippling abbs I did alright!


----------



## Deejo

michzz said:


> Hey, even without rippling abbs I did alright!


Michzz, if anyone is a case for recovering from being totally f*cked over by a spouse, and then finding their feet, and love again, it's gotta be you.


----------



## Trickster

Hey Happy-

My life has already gone to the dogs. I am a "nice guy" with lots of baggage. I don't think I will open my heart to another woman again. I spend a lot of my free time at the animal shelter. 

I have a long way to go until I divorce. 

Funny story... 

The shelter has people doing their community service with the county. The other day, I saw this amazingly beautiful young woman wearing the "red" vest. So as went up to her and asked her....

What did a young beautiful woman like you do to be lucky enough to wear that red vest?

With a little smile, she told me she got a DWI...So I told her I has one when I was her age.. She then proceeded to tell me her life story. Her alcoholic siblings, parents, what happen the night of her DWI, as well as many other drunk stories...

Don't know why she told me all that. If I was 25 years younger, she would be my disfunctional soulmate...


----------



## MaritimeGuy

I would say we have to be clear on what we consider a player. By my definition a man who dates a lot of woman and chooses not to commit is not necessarily a player. If he's lying to all these women telling them he feels a certain way towards them when he doesn't to try to get something out of them then I would say he is a player. 

Men in middle age do have more experience and generally more confidence so should they choose to be a player their game is probably better than that of a younger man. That may make it more difficult to separate the two types of men.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

MaritimeGuy said:


> I would say we have to be clear on what we consider a player. By my definition a man who dates a lot of woman and chooses not to commit is not necessarily a player. If he's lying to all these women telling them he feels a certain way towards them when he doesn't to try to get something out of them then I would say he is a player.
> 
> Men in middle age do have more experience and generally more confidence so should they choose to be a player their game is probably better than that of a younger man. That may make it more difficult to separate the two types of men.


The problem is many of these things aren't based in objective fact that is definable. Sometimes they just didn't like the outcome and it's an emotional response or rationalization.

You move on, she didn't want you to, so she's hurt and vents it at you for being a "player" or "using" her.

Emotions are weird things. I sh*t you not, I actually had a girl break up with ME and then get pissed that I went out with someone later that week. She called me a player and an azzhole. Blows my mind.


----------



## heartsbeating

Rowan said:


> Imagine how I feel. I hadn't really considered myself middle aged. I just turned 38!


Someone recently said to me, 'Another middle-aged woman...' in conversation with me and I played it cool but inside I was freaking out a smidgen. 
It was hard to hear the rest of what was being said with the internal dialogue of _They consider me middle-aged. I knew I was middle-aged. But wait, when did this happen?!_

To my husband: I think we're middle-aged now.
Him: pfft... no, we're not!

Soon to be 38.


----------



## heartsbeating

Southern_Wife....what's going on and how do we help you navigate to restore your faith in the middle-aged men?


----------



## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> But you have a youthful spirit ... and you surf ... which makes you a playa by proxy.


bass playa to be precise.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> *If someone wants the best of me, they need to earn it. Doesn't change the fact that I remain open, honest, and forthright with anyone I am involved with.
> It is absolutely about getting what I want, but not at someone elses expense*.


 I'd feel the same way... BE the same way. I'm not a suck up and too honest for my own good. 



> *I've written about it before, being a good man, sometimes means you look like a sh!t heel. I have broken up with some wonderful women, we had fulfilling consensual relationships, intimate relationships, but the relationships ran their course*.


 It can't be easy out there.... I was most impressed with HOW you go about handling a break up... as I recall you are one who wouldn't just leave someone hanging...in silence / not showing up....but have enough dignity / respect for some sort of "goodbye" and wish them well...Seems the majority lack even this courtesy today...



> Although it is my hope that neither you nor your husband ever find yourselves single, by nature of who you are, you would invariably attract that RIGHT person. Consequently you would probably also attract plenty of others who are simply less right. *And as long as everyone is honest about that, then no harm no foul.*


This is where I see the JOKE.. *"Honesty"*... Billy Joel's words come to mind.... wading through that with a sea of disgruntled "given up on romance" mid life men looking to get laid.. the reality is pretty bleak, isn't it.. 

One friend shared a # of her meetings..AND THE LIES...it was like pouring water to some... she said the Christian dating sites weren't as bad...she did find a man on there she is still seeing today...




> *DvlsAdvc8 said*:I don't want to be treated like a King, or to treat her as a Queen. *I want no ruling or subservient context at all. It is not my moral duty to make sure she gets what she wants at the expense of my wants. I made that mistake already, and thankfully woke up from that nightmare*.


 I feel the undercurrent in many posts of those who have been greatly betrayed with this way of thinking... "at the expense" .. downing the high treatment of another.. 

Isn't it possible.. or maybe I am just crazy....too hopeless.... but I would think we all want to be intensely loved / passionately ' "all in" by another....it's deep, encompassing.. it's a shared feeling... 

But what happens and I've seen it with friends... due to prior experiences , being hurt....or feeling ruled... or sucking up ...that you now see any form of "*giving*" of yourself ...the wanting to do that.. to be in some vein in either Lording over (your ex telling you what to do, what she expected- with no care to how you felt )...or sucking up (you trying to please to no avail, while your needs go ignored - to frustration / resentment - your Hell)...

I'm not really the subservient type...my H would laugh at that even.. I question ~ I openly speak of what I desire/ but ask of him at the same times... he cares to listen & wants to give...as do I.... I want equality..I want mine too! 








... yet.. there is some welling up inside that you just want to give back.. when you are treated with such care, knowing he wants the best for you , that this BRINGS HIM HAPPINESS......it's really a gratitude thing - completely on the other side of a "sucking up" or "Lording over" subservient situation... we want to give the Best of our Love"....shouldn't it work this way, there is no compulsion , no pressure, no conformity...it's our JOY...this is from where I speak...




> *MaritimeGuy said*: I would say we have to be clear on what we consider a player.* By my definition a man who dates a lot of woman and chooses not to commit is not necessarily a player*. If he's lying to all these women telling them he feels a certain way towards them when he doesn't to try to get something out of them then I would say he is a player.


 they may not be Players but they would clearly be a let down to the woman seeking something long lasting...who wasn't on dating sites just looking to sleep with a slew of men...Too bad there isn't a better way to weed these types out... what are they... the honorable Philanderer ....

I feel their intentions are far more concealed over not....they know it has to be.. or their pool of women would go down..they like the game. 

I wish I copied & pasted this one Online dating profile....a friend of mine was at my house using the computer looking one day... this man laid it out in all it's glory....his intentions were LISTED...He was looking to BED beautiful woman, nothing more, a night of passion he sought...he told them if they were x amount of weight, click away.. if they crazy, click away...if they expected a phone call the next day, click away. ... the list was like 10 things to WEED OUT.. my friend thought "what an *******" reading that... I felt a little different over her....I laughed... at least you knew what to expect ! No games with that one !!...He was weeding them out before a contact...


----------



## Mr The Other

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


When we were in our teens, our sex drive was beserk but we value was very low. In our twenties, most had low confidence and lwo income, by the thirties everything is on the up. By the forties, we still have the confidence based on our thirties (and, if on the scene, a cynicism based on failed relationships).


----------



## Methuselah

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I sh*t you not, I actually had a girl break up with ME and then get pissed that I went out with someone later that week. She called me a player and an azzhole. Blows my mind.


You didn't get the memo. You were supposed to go crawling back to her, begging her to take you back. The fact you were able to date later that week meant you were never committed to her and were an azzhole/player from the get-go. Otherwise, when she dumped you, you would have been on suicide watch.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Exactly. Expections vs reality.


----------



## happy as a clam

Hmmm... just wondering why SW hasn't returned to her thread.


----------



## Mr The Other

Mr The Other said:


> When we were in our teens, our sex drive was beserk but we value was very low. In our twenties, most had low confidence and lwo income, by the thirties everything is on the up. By the forties, we still have the confidence based on our thirties (and, if on the scene, a cynicism based on failed relationships).


I will add a further thing to this. When you are young, you might not be sure of yourself, but have plenty of time. When you are older, you are sure but have no time. Is the younger or older me going to um and ah about getting into a relationship or getting you into bed? I used to be far less direct, I have less time now and while I would like to have a close meaningful relationship (if I am not too embittered) I do get to have more sex now with more attractive women than ten years ago (I was rather good looking back then too).


----------



## RandomDude

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


I'm not middle aged... yet 

Though I have noticed patterns among the more mature generation as well, many have been in and out of relationships/marriage/divorce, some are also very disillusioned (myself included). Many do maintain their morality, others seem to have been so shattered that their moral system has seen some wear and tear. However these patterns are not exclusive to men.

In two words; Innocence lost.


----------



## WandaJ

If I get divorced now, in my forties, I would take it easy too. DEfinitely would not look to get into another too serious relationship.


----------



## Jellybeans

RandomDude said:


> Though I have noticed patterns among the more mature generation as well, many have been in and out of relationships/marriage/divorce, some are also very disillusioned (myself included). Many do maintain their morality, others seem to have been so shattered that their moral system has seen some wear and tear. However these patterns are not exclusive to men.


On the opposite end, some people jump from relationships to relationships. We all know someone who has separated/is still married and already dating new/various people and not wasting time.

I guess it depends on the person.

But one thing I will say about divorce is that RD is right - there is a level of innocence lost.


----------



## SamuraiJack

RandomDude said:


> I'm not middle aged... yet
> 
> Though I have noticed patterns among the more mature generation as well, many have been in and out of relationships/marriage/divorce, some are also very disillusioned (myself included). Many do maintain their morality, others seem to have been so shattered that their moral system has seen some wear and tear. However these patterns are not exclusive to men.
> 
> In two words; Innocence lost.


We call it "Scratch and Ding"....


----------



## southern wife

happy as a clam said:


> Hmmm... just wondering why SW hasn't returned to her thread.


Been busy with work.....and life. But I'm here.


As for me, I was approached months ago by a man that I knew when we were kids (I was 7; he was 12). He played little league baseball with my brother. Thought he was cute....crush type thing. Even today, I still like older men. Anyway, fast forward 37 years, this man is contacting me on FB. I remembered him. Things got flirty rather quickly. We're both single (well, I'm separated). I wasn't looking to date, and told him so. He kept pursuing. Eventually I agreed to meet him for a beer after work one day. We talked and had a few drinks. Exchanged life stories. I'm a single Mom; he does not have kids. Afterwards, he walked me to my car. Said our goodbyes, and he kissed me!! Totally wasn't expecting that. It was just a quick lips kiss...nothing more. 

More time spent chatting on FB. At that time, he lived an hr away from me. He told me he was renting a house with another guy, but was looking to move back to the area soon. Well, soon didn't come for a long time. I also found out he was living with his EX/GF in her house. In the timeframe that he found me, he was also in the process of breaking up with the now EX/GF. 

Over the months that followed, I discovered a web of lies, several "booty call" type FB "friends" he had (he's now taken them off his FB and deleted them from his phone). While in the relationship with me, he's contacted them. I have the dates, the timestamps, and the reason he contacted them. I ended up breaking up with him. Within a week, he was at my doorstep upset because I had been on a date (just a date) with someone else, and he saw that person's car in my driveway. I sent him away, but he kept texting me that he wanted to talk to me, needed me, loves me, etc. He came back later that night, crying and shaking, saying his sorrys for everything. Wanted to be the man I wanted him to be, wanted to change, etc. I can tell that he is trying. He professes his love for me everyday. I do love him, but not at the level I did. 

Anyway, I have ended up seeing him again, still am, but I do verify things he says, glance at his phone which he's given me right to anytime I want/ask....which I don't ask. It's so hard to build the trust again.

At the same time, I'm also dating the other person. We've been on less than a dozen dates, but I don't want to stop seeing him at this point. He's cute, successful, a father to 3 sons and we have a lot in common. We also have a lot of fun together. With that said, I'm having a hard time cutting it off with the one that's lied so much to me and has really hurt my heart. Although there's been some healing, there's still hurt. There's still little to no trust. On a positive note, when the black cloud isn't over us we do have fun together as well. He's very affectionate (well they both are) and being with him just feels natural. 

Also keep in mind that the new guy has his own EX/GF issues that he's been dealing with. I found out about her before he even said anything to me about her. But he did call me one afternoon recently, and told me about her. I told him that I already knew about her, knew her name, and what she drives. I told him how I know, too. I'm quite resourceful when it comes to protecting myself and my daughter from ppl that may meet her at some point.

Obviously a lot of details are missing, pieces of time, but it's all too long to tell right now. The pieces are just more of the same anyway. I know a crossroads is soon to come and I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

I do sometimes feel used by Mr. Lie. He does not have his own place (long story but he's staying at his Dad's house which is 5 min. from my house), so he's at my house a lot, I buy most of the groceries, etc. Truth be told he doesn't make that much money, his truck payment/insurance is high, and he has medical bills. He does help me at my house; he's hung new light fixtures and other handyman type stuff. 

Anyway, that's all I have for now.

Oh, if some of you remember my thread from a few months ago about men professing love to get what they want, Mr. Lie is that same guy.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Seems like some blurred lines between your definitions of dating, relationships and boundaries. If you are seeing another man while still involved with Mr. Lie, seems like a conflict of interests. I think you are saying you don't like him doing that? If you don't take these situations that serious, were you ever really in a relationship? What's your definition of a relationship? If not, does it matter who either of you sees or whether it's while you are dating each other? 

Sort of reads like you want to be able to date others while dating him, but you don't want him doing similarly. Maybe I got the wrong impression? Hope you can figure out what you want and find someone who shares the same beliefs.


----------



## southern wife

Yes we were in a relationship. I discovered his mess. I broke up with him. During that time, I met new guy and we've been on a few dates. Mr. Lie saw new guys' car at my house, so he knows I'm dating him. No it doesn't feel right to see both. I have to take care of this one way or the other soon.

The no trust issues cause me anxiety from time to time. I know it's not healthy for me to be in the relationship. I just need to figure this out. It's been hard on me.


----------



## ConanHub

I was surprised to hear of your split. didn't realize that your marriage was in that much trouble.

Are you proceeding with divorce or is that on hold?

Sorry, I am too lazy to review other threads.


----------



## southern wife

ConanHub said:


> I was surprised to hear of your split. didn't realize that your marriage was in that much trouble.
> 
> Are you proceeding with divorce or is that on hold?
> 
> Sorry, I am too lazy to review other threads.


My marriage ended in May. I'm not married to Mr. Lie; just in a relationship (off and on again) with him. Not 100% happy as I was at first. Building trust is hard, and not sure it can be done in this situation as there was just too much of it. Daily.


----------



## Deejo

Wait wait wait ... so one man child equals all middle aged men?

Not that you need me to tell you SW, but Mr. Lie is a sh!t heel.

Why pursue the very kind of man that women, including yourself, come here and rail about?


----------



## ConanHub

Deejo said:


> Wait wait wait ... so one man child equals all middle aged men?
> 
> Not that you need me to tell you SW, but Mr. Lie is a sh!t heel.
> 
> Why pursue the very kind of man that women, including yourself, come here and rail about?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

SW, you strike me as a classy gal and worth a very good man. Take your sweet time and a good one will rise to the top. You really don't need to waste your time with Mr. Lie or any other runner up to Mr. Goodbar. Funny thing is when you are just living life and working on yourself and enjoying everything, good mates seem to appear with little effort on your part.

Not all of us middle aged dudes are players.


----------



## 2ntnuf

southern wife said:


> Yes we were in a relationship. I discovered his mess. I broke up with him. During that time, I met new guy and we've been on a few dates. Mr. Lie saw new guys' car at my house, so he knows I'm dating him. No it doesn't feel right to see both. I have to take care of this one way or the other soon.
> 
> The no trust issues cause me anxiety from time to time. I know it's not healthy for me to be in the relationship. I just need to figure this out. It's been hard on me.


Seems like maybe you need to work on making a break up more clear? He somehow didn't get the message. Sounds like he has plenty of problems with relationships. Glad you are rid of him. Hope he stays away.

Maybe you can step back and find a way to see the man you are out with before it gets further than you are comfortable with? Maybe you can train yourself to see these signs earlier, if you make a list of what you really want and find strength in knowing you are a worthy catch, to put a halt to anything that shows red flags that you cannot accept? 

Have you ever read, "Boundaries"? I hope you can find yourself soon. You are worth more than this.


----------



## southern wife

Deejo said:


> Wait wait wait ... so one man child equals all middle aged men?
> 
> Not that you need me to tell you SW, but Mr. Lie is a sh!t heel.
> 
> Why pursue the very kind of man that women, including yourself, come here and rail about?


I know, I Know, I KNOW!!!! I could just kick myself! I don't pursue him; he pursues me. I just have a hard time making the break off stick once he comes back around.


----------



## 2ntnuf

You don't have to let him catch you.


----------



## southern wife

2ntnuf said:


> You don't have to let him catch you.


Despite everything, he does have a place in my *too kind* heart.


----------



## Deejo

Hey waitaminnit ... aren't you dating 2 dudes???

PLAYA!


----------



## JCD

southern wife said:


> Since being on the dating scene again, I'm finding that men in my age group are such players, liars, and cheaters. What has happened to all these men? :scratchhead:


Okay. I hit middle age. (Let me weep privately over that fact for a while...thanks...I'm done)

I started to take care of myself physically. I started to not give a sh!t any more about what women thought of me. I started to be very confident in my skin. I have also 'aged' into an attractive package. I wouldn't have dated young me...but old me is shaping up pretty well.

And women are coming out of the woodwork!

One of the first conversations I have with all of them is 'I'm married'. Then I get one of two reactions: "Here is my card anyway" or "Being true to your marriage is sexy. Let me hang around you a lot more..."

Blink blink.

Right now, I am sad to say, in your age bracket, there is a sellers market for men. Many of your fellow ladies are dealing with the fact that they partied all summer....and the leaves are falling down now...

A lot of men are responding accordingly.

Urbane, semi witty, attractive men who are in the top 20% earning potential with all their hair...very much a sellers market.

And it's just going to get worse.


----------



## RandomDude

JCD said:


> A lot of men are responding accordingly.
> 
> Urbane, semi witty, attractive men who are in the top 20% earning potential with all their hair...very much a sellers market.
> 
> And it's just going to get worse.


I'm still 3/4 of my way to middle age but, I have noticed this in my city as well. They call it the "man drought" here, and as you mentioned, many men are responding in kind.

I have also noticed after seperation going back into the dating game the amount of interested women quadripled from when I was much younger.


----------



## JCD

SW,

Great guys are married if they want to be. If they don't want to be, they aren't married.

There are very few people in the 'transition phase' due to death or divorce.

Which is why I will encourage my girls to find a great guy early and marry him. The most matches will be available early in life.

Here is a little skit I found funny.

29/31 Tends to be a bit loud. A few words involved.


----------



## Mr The Other

I think women really do have it worse. 

I remember my wife having supreme confidence in being able to get jobs she was not qualified for. She was not arrogant, but it had been like that throughout her twenties and like most ladies in her twenties, it never occurred to her that she was getting preferential treatment. 

I am in my late thirties. As long as I am quiet and earnest looking, people assume I am wise and intelligent. When I was in my twenties, I had the ****ty end of the stick. It does mean I can enjoy it and see it for it is.


----------



## lordmayhem

southern wife said:


> Anyway, I have ended up seeing him again, still am, but I do verify things he says, glance at his phone which he's given me right to anytime I want/ask....which I don't ask. It's so hard to build the trust again.
> 
> *At the same time, I'm also dating the other person.* We've been on less than a dozen dates, but I don't want to stop seeing him at this point.


And middle aged men are such players?


----------



## Methuselah

JCD said:


> Urbane, semi witty, attractive men who are in the top 20% earning potential with all their hair...very much a sellers market.
> 
> And it's just going to get worse.


My son is in this demographic (I've been married longer than most of you have been alive )

According to what he tells me, his friends in this age range who are single and have never been married are not likely to ever get married at this point, they are too set in their ways and enjoy the benefits of single manhood.

His male friends who are single and have been married in the past are not likely to do it again - they will live with a woman, but will not get married - because after going through divorce once and losing 50% of their assets and finally climbing back on their feet and becoming financially stable/independent again, they do not want to repeat the experience over. (What was it Einstein said about doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result?)

The pool of marriage-minded middle-aged men is extremely, extremely limited.


----------



## Wolf1974

Methuselah said:


> My son is in this demographic (I've been married longer than most of you have been alive )
> 
> According to what he tells me, his friends in this age range who are single and have never been married are not likely to ever get married at this point, they are too set in their ways and enjoy the benefits of single manhood.
> 
> His male friends who are single and have been married in the past are not likely to do it again - they will live with a woman, but will not get married - because after going through divorce once and losing 50% of their assets and finally climbing back on their feet and becoming financially stable/independent again, they do not want to repeat the experience over. (What was it Einstein said about doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result?)
> 
> The pool of marriage-minded middle-aged men is extremely, extremely limited.



Can't disagree. The thought of marriage and again exposing myself emotionally, mentally and financially is a hard pill to swallow or even consider. I mean I skated out of my x marriage perfectly intact financially. But I have seen others royally screwed.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> How many men look at their SIL in a sexual manner? Yuk. .



What?

My brother's wife's sister is a 9+ and very nice. We were very good friends. A couple years older than me, very classy lady. Wish the opportunity arose...

My wife's sister was a 10+++, everything my wife has looks wise but very sensual. Never met her in real life, tho. Eventually her sensuality caught up with her...


----------



## john117

JCD said:


> Urbane, semi witty, attractive men who are in the top 20% earning potential with all their hair...very much a sellers market



Depends on your standards. I'm 55, urbane, very (too) witty, top earning - not potential -, hair in great shape (thank you Propecia) and unless I start hitting the dating sites I can't begin to think of someone I would date because of my likely dating preferences. 

It's basically some variation of "if she's this good how is she single"???


----------



## Openminded

SW, as I recall, you discovered your crush was still partially living with another woman in a long-term relationship, at least in the beginning of your relationship, and that's when you ended it? 

When I saw this thread my first thought was that he was back in your life. I hoped not. I think he really IS a player. Not middle aged men. HIM.

ETA: Even if they were breaking up, he lied. What I think? He wants someone to help support him.


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> What?
> 
> My brother's wife's sister is a 9+ and very nice. We were very good friends. A couple years older than me, very classy lady. Wish the opportunity arose...
> 
> My wife's sister was a 10+++, everything my wife has looks wise but very sensual. Never met her in real life, tho. Eventually her sensuality caught up with her...


I guess I had in mind my brothers wives. For some reason, my brain reads that differently than it reads a sister of my wife. The sister of my wife would read a little less intensely. When a woman marries my brother, she somehow becomes my sister in my mind. It then seems gross. I don't know why I am like that, but I am.


----------



## john117

Aha. In the same logic I would probably jump off a VERY tall building if I had to deal with my brother's wife in that way. Major league NPD but my brother never complained. Good looker, too. I would be too if I never once bought ready made clothes.... 

Likewise the lady that married my wife's brother would be ideal in food commercials (a bit on the well fed side)... But unremarkable otherwise. Hit the jackpot marrying an MD...

Sorry for the SIL confusion. Things are different in Paducah :rofl: but no, I don't see the sister-y look.


----------



## JCD

john117 said:


> Depends on your standards. I'm 55, urbane, very (too) witty, top earning - not potential -, hair in great shape (thank you Propecia) and unless I start hitting the dating sites I can't begin to think of someone I would date because of my likely dating preferences.
> 
> It's basically some variation of "if she's this good how is she single"???


I am not asking you who you want to date. I am saying that you are likely to have some attraction from others.


----------



## john117

JCD said:


> I am not asking you who you want to date. I am saying that you are likely to have some attraction from others.



What practical purpose would this serve? Self validation maybe but not much else.


----------



## heartsbeating

southern wife said:


> My marriage ended in May. I'm not married to Mr. Lie; just in a relationship (off and on again) with him. Not 100% happy as I was at first. Building trust is hard, and not sure it can be done in this situation as there was just too much of it. Daily.


I'm surprised to hear you took Mr Lie back. From a place of caring, rather than judgement, I must ask where your head is at for that to happen?


----------



## Openminded

I agree. 

The other guy sounds much better. He was honest with you. And that's as important as it gets. 

Trusting this guy would be a mistake.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

southern wife said:


> Yes we were in a relationship. I discovered his mess. I broke up with him. During that time, I met new guy and we've been on a few dates. Mr. Lie saw new guys' car at my house, so he knows I'm dating him. No it doesn't feel right to see both. I have to take care of this one way or the other soon.
> 
> The no trust issues cause me anxiety from time to time. I know it's not healthy for me to be in the relationship. I just need to figure this out. It's been hard on me.


It sounds like the bad boy said enough of the right things to capture you, and now the double allure of the bad boy who might just change into your knight in shining armor, thanks to you, has got you in its spell. Your posts tend to betray doubts about man #2, and that you don't see much in him because he just doesn't have that "you know what" for you right now.


----------



## WandaJ

Methuselah said:


> My son is in this demographic (I've been married longer than most of you have been alive )
> 
> According to what he tells me, his friends in this age range who are single and have never been married are not likely to ever get married at this point, they are too set in their ways and enjoy the benefits of single manhood.
> 
> His male friends who are single and have been married in the past are not likely to do it again - they will live with a woman, but will not get married - because after going through divorce once and losing 50% of their assets and finally climbing back on their feet and becoming financially stable/independent again, they do not want to repeat the experience over. (What was it Einstein said about doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result?)
> 
> The pool of marriage-minded middle-aged men is extremely, extremely limited.


although I am a woman, I would not want to re-marry if I was to divorce now. Get in relationship? sure. but woudl keep it simple. you keep your place, I keep my place, get some together time, and some alone time, whatever would work best for us. I do not really understand people who leave trouble marriages only to go right into next one. don't you learn?


----------



## GusPolinski

Deejo said:


> We meet on Wednesday nights via *NetMeeting* and set the agenda for the weekend.
> 
> Perspective.
> 
> If you are a man coming out of a marriage where you were taken for granted, rationed sex, and lost your self respect ... and then find yourself in the 40+ dating pool where if you don't have a huge beer gut, and are gainfully employed you find yourself surprisingly getting attention all over the place, some men ... some ... may become 'bad actors' when it comes to dating and sex.
> 
> For the record, same applies to women.
> 
> To be successful, you need to have a plan, know what you want, and be able to get the right 'read' on someone relatively early on if you don't think they are being entirely forthcoming.
> 
> So let's be clear here, are you the victim of outright chicanery and lying, or have you thought your dating relationships were going in one direction while your date was going in another or had no such expectation?


Ah... NetMeeting. LOL. 

So what's on the agenda, Gramps... optimum mothball placement strategies? Community center bingo hacks? Reviews of the 10 best/worst hearing aid batteries?

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## Deejo

GusPolinski said:


> Ah... NetMeeting. LOL.
> 
> So what's on the agenda, Gramps... optimum mothball placement strategies? Community center bingo hacks? Reviews of the 10 best/worst hearing aid batteries?
> 
> :lol: :rofl:


What is the kids are using these days? Lync?


----------



## john117

Not Facebook Messenger.


----------



## Racer

I am still thoroughly baffled by this. So, Mr. Liar was cheating on his GF, unstable emotionally (stalking, jealous, etc.), now living with his parents, and who knows how much more. And you are hung up on him while there is a honest guy, living on his own, being a father in the wings?

This sort of sounds more like a good argument for those guys who insist women are shallow and go for the bad boys and nice guys finish last. We keep being told isn't true; Yet here you are, a smart, attractive woman falling for this bull.

I like you SW. This seems like a no-brainer. You are dealing with a cheater who is doing the same stuff he always has: Spinning the reality and omitting to keep you perplexed and making excuses for him because he knows you like him. Don't get in too deep with this guy. It's already dysfunctional... that will get toxic. You need to go NC to break that fog.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> Hey waitaminnit ... aren't you dating 2 dudes???
> 
> PLAYA!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Deejo said:


> What is the kids are using these days? Lync?


Google hangouts.


----------



## 2ntnuf

He's a serial dater who does not want to commit to any one person so as to protect himself from being hurt again. He had one really rough one that closed him off to a real relationship. He further insulates himself by dating more than one woman and he may have been with a wife who did not offer sex very often. In which case, he justifies having several women at the same time so that he is not hurt by rejection again. He's been hurt badly.

Also, she has a "soft heart", I think she said, for him and his situation. She knew him years ago and had a crush on him and thought he might just be the same guy she knew then. He isn't. She isn't the same woman, either. 

She verbally stated to him in her own words, she was no longer interested. She still cares for him, so she could not break it off with him while she pursued another man who showed interest. Even though this man is better it seems, she now has new neurological connections associated with past good memories and strengthened by new ones. What those memories are is not our business, but in general they support her fondness for him and continue to release dopamine when she talks with him or whatever. She has found herself addicted to her feelings and disconnected from common sense. 

This is not uncommon in both men and women. It is a product of any relationship that is decent. It can fade with time, but the new neural pathways never disconnect without brain damage. So, each time he comes around or connects with her, she'll get a hit of dopamine and serotonin and be drawn quite naturally toward him. Only her logical brain and perspective will break this, if she wants them to. 

That was long winded and I feel bad for SW, by the way.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

Methuselah said:


> My son is in this demographic (I've been married longer than most of you have been alive )
> 
> According to what he tells me, his friends in this age range who are single and have never been married are not likely to ever get married at this point, they are too set in their ways and enjoy the benefits of single manhood.
> 
> His male friends who are single and have been married in the past are not likely to do it again - they will live with a woman, but will not get married - because after going through divorce once and losing 50% of their assets and finally climbing back on their feet and becoming financially stable/independent again, they do not want to repeat the experience over. (What was it Einstein said about doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result?)
> 
> The pool of marriage-minded middle-aged men is extremely, extremely limited.


I'm not interested in remarrying again not so much because of the financial implications. You can put legal agreements in place to protect yourself there. In fact any time one or both partners are bringing any material amount of assets into the relationship you would be crazy not to. 

I was married once...got the t-shirt...pretty much all I walked away with as a matter of fact. I have no need to do it again. It's not because I'm afraid of it. It's just that I've learned that the marriage vows are only as good as the word of the person giving them. For some they have tremendous weight. For others they are just something you say to make the family happy and haul in a few gifts. 

At this stage of my life I'm enjoying being in a relationship with a woman. If at any point I become dissatisfied with her I can simply call it a day. She can do the same on her side. It means we both have to work at the relationship if we want to stay in it. We can't become complacent and just expect the other person to stay simply because it would be inconvenient to leave. 

How many people we see here whose spouse is obviously relying on the marriage vows to keep the marriage together rather than actually working on the relationship?


----------



## GusPolinski

Just curious... Mr. Lie knows about the new guy, but does the new guy know about Mr. Lie?


----------



## vellocet

GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... Mr. Lie knows about the new guy, but does the new guy know about Mr. Lie?


Doubt it. Unless new guy is a doormat.

Back in the day when I was dating, if I found out someone multidated me, then it was "nice knowin' ya"


----------



## In_The_Wind

SW don't hate the Playa hate the Game. Kick it girl 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southern wife

Openminded said:


> SW, as I recall, you discovered your crush was still partially living with another woman in a long-term relationship, at least in the beginning of your relationship, and that's when you ended it?
> 
> When I saw this thread my first thought was that he was back in your life. I hoped not. I think he really IS a player. Not middle aged men. HIM.
> 
> ETA: Even if they were breaking up, he lied. What I think? He wants someone to help support him.


You, my friend, have hit the nail on the head. :iagree:


----------



## southern wife

PreRaphaelite said:


> It sounds like the bad boy said enough of the right things to capture you, and now the double allure of the bad boy who might just change into your knight in shining armor, thanks to you, has got you in its spell. Your posts tend to betray doubts about man #2, and that you don't see much in him because he just doesn't have that "you know what" for you right now.


Oh but he does, he totally does. have that and more. He is a great guy! 

Your right about the bad boy. I need a spell breaker! :whip:


----------



## Jellybeans

southern wife said:


> More time spent chatting on FB. At that time, he lived an hr away from me. He told me he was renting a house with another guy, but was looking to move back to the area soon. Well, soon didn't come for a long time. I also found out he was living with his EX/GF in her house. In the timeframe that he found me, he was also in the process of breaking up with the now EX/GF.
> 
> Over the months that followed, I discovered a web of lies, several "booty call" type FB "friends" he had (he's now taken them off his FB and deleted them from his phone). While in the relationship with me, he's contacted them. I have the dates, the timestamps, and the reason he contacted them. I ended up breaking up with him. Within a week, he was at my doorstep upset because I had been on a date (just a date) with someone else, and he saw that person's car in my driveway.
> 
> Anyway, I have ended up seeing him again, still am, but I do verify things he says, glance at his phone which he's given me right to anytime I want/ask....which I don't ask. It's so hard to build the trust again.


I think you should have ended with him the moment you found out he was still living with his girlfriend, ex, stbx, whatever version he told you. There's no trust here, which means it's a waste of time, especially so soon in.

With that said: 



southern wife said:


> At the same time, I'm also dating the other person. We've been on less than a dozen dates, but I don't want to stop seeing him at this point. He's cute, successful, a father to 3 sons and we have a lot in common. .


You already know what I am going to say. Does he know you are still dating Mr. Lie? And do you really want to keep seeing someone you call "Mr. Lie?" Truly, SW?



southern wife said:


> I do sometimes feel used by Mr. Lie. He does not have his own place (long story but he's staying at his Dad's house which is 5 min. from my house), so he's at my house a lot, I buy most of the groceries, etc. Truth be told he doesn't make that much money, his truck payment/insurance is high, and he has medical bills.
> 
> Oh, if some of you remember my thread from a few months ago about men professing love to get what they want, Mr. Lie is that same guy.


SW.... you are my girl and I am gonna be very clear with you: 

:slap:

Just no. Axe this guy. Yesterday.


----------



## southern wife

Racer said:


> I am still thoroughly baffled by this. So, Mr. Liar was cheating on his GF, unstable emotionally (stalking, jealous, etc.), now living with his parents, and who knows how much more. And you are hung up on him while there is a honest guy, living on his own, being a father in the wings?
> 
> This sort of sounds more like a good argument for those guys who insist women are shallow and go for the bad boys and nice guys finish last. We keep being told isn't true; Yet here you are, a smart, attractive woman falling for this bull.
> 
> I like you SW. This seems like a no-brainer. You are dealing with a cheater who is doing the same stuff he always has: Spinning the reality and omitting to keep you perplexed and making excuses for him because he knows you like him. Don't get in too deep with this guy. It's already dysfunctional... that will get toxic. You need to go NC to break that fog.


Thanks, I needed this as well. I already know it's dysfunctional AND toxic. I already feel the stress and anxiety over it.


----------



## Jellybeans

southern wife said:


> I need a spell breaker! :whip:


I got you.


----------



## Deejo

You've got it good, for the wrong guy.

You're frustrated.

Mr. Lie isn't the guy for you. You know this. But ... if heart's were logical this place would be dull.

If I had to guess, New Guy, isn't nearly as aggressive, passionate, emphatic as Weepy Lie Guy, which while making him appear more stable, dependable, and grounded, makes him look a little less exciting.

Close? Not even in the ball park?

A dozen dates with guy number 2? 

So just pick whoever is better in bed, that's what all us playa's do. 

And relax. All 3 of you are grown ups. Make your decision and execute.

Although I still find it creepy that Weepy Lie guy does drive bys on your address.


----------



## sidney2718

vellocet said:


> Doubt it. Unless new guy is a doormat.
> 
> Back in the day when I was dating, if I found out someone multidated me, then it was "nice knowin' ya"


I'm an old guy amazed at how things have changed. Back in the day "dating" was not the same as "exclusive".

I gather that this has changed nowadays. Is there no equivalent of what used to be called "dating"?


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> I'm an old guy amazed at how things have changed. Back in the day "dating" was not the same as "exclusive".
> 
> I gather that this has changed nowadays. Is there no equivalent of what used to be called "dating"?


No, its not the same, you are right.

But to me, I found it disrespectful if I am giving my considerations to someone else and they are, IMO, playing me with another guy. Sorry, not happening.

Like I told one girl who said I shouldn't be mad because we were not exclusive. I told her, paraphrasing, "You are right, I'm not mad. But if you wanted a serious relationship with me, you just went about it the wrong way"


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> I'm an old guy amazed at how things have changed. Back in the day "dating" was not the same as "exclusive".
> 
> I gather that this has changed nowadays. Is there no equivalent of what used to be called "dating"?


Nothing at all.......dating around and playing the field can be one aspect of dating. Hell I've done it. But when looking for a realtionship then your priorities change to wanting to meet like minded people and pursuing them. Someone looking for a commitment isn't going to be ok with someone wanting to play the field and so on


----------



## southern wife

2ntnuf said:


> He's a serial dater who does not want to commit to any one person so as to protect himself from being hurt again. He had one really rough one that closed him off to a real relationship. He further insulates himself by dating more than one woman and he may have been with a wife who did not offer sex very often. In which case, he justifies having several women at the same time so that he is not hurt by rejection again. He's been hurt badly.
> 
> Also, she has a "soft heart", I think she said, for him and his situation. She knew him years ago and had a crush on him and thought he might just be the same guy she knew then. He isn't. She isn't the same woman, either.
> 
> She verbally stated to him in her own words, she was no longer interested. She still cares for him, so she could not break it off with him while she pursued another man who showed interest. Even though this man is better it seems, she now has new neurological connections associated with past good memories and strengthened by new ones. What those memories are is not our business, but in general they support her fondness for him and continue to release dopamine when she talks with him or whatever. She has found herself addicted to her feelings and disconnected from common sense.
> 
> This is not uncommon in both men and women. It is a product of any relationship that is decent. It can fade with time, but the new neural pathways never disconnect without brain damage. So, each time he comes around or connects with her, she'll get a hit of dopamine and serotonin and be drawn quite naturally toward him. Only her logical brain and perspective will break this, if she wants them to.
> 
> That was long winded and I feel bad for SW, by the way.


I have come back this morning to re-read this post. There is a lot of insight to it and it makes sense as to what is going on with me. Some, not all, but some of my relationship with Mr. Lie IS good, otherwise I wouldn't be in it at all. But with that comes a dark cloud over it. There are things about it that I cannot live with ....very much longer. I know the end, YES THE END, is near and I'm trying to process in my mind how to go about it. My mind has taken over as of lately, overriding my heart. I have to do what's healthy for me and my mind knows this. Yes there will always be a part of me that loves him and wishes things could be different, but they're just not. 

This time of year isn't making any of it any easier to deal with.


----------



## southern wife

Racer said:


> I am still thoroughly baffled by this. So, Mr. Liar was cheating on his GF, unstable emotionally (stalking, jealous, etc.), now living with his parents, and who knows how much more. And you are hung up on him while there is a honest guy, living on his own, being a father in the wings?
> 
> This sort of sounds more like a good argument for those guys who insist women are shallow and go for the bad boys and nice guys finish last. We keep being told isn't true; Yet here you are, a smart, attractive woman falling for this bull.
> 
> I like you SW. This seems like a no-brainer. You are dealing with a cheater who is doing the same stuff he always has: Spinning the reality and omitting to keep you perplexed and making excuses for him because he knows you like him. Don't get in too deep with this guy. It's already dysfunctional... that will get toxic. You need to go NC to break that fog.


Racer, I appreciate your post. I can only say that for me, it's not about "good guy/bad guy". It's where my heart has been the past several months, although it's been stomped on. Mr. Lie has not set out to hurt me on purpose; it's just that I've discovered his lies and the way he's been living and called him out on all of it. All of that is on him and since it's out in the open, he says he doesn't want to live that way anymore and wants to be a better person. Is that a lie? Or truth? Only he can determine that, but I can say that he's made some necessary changes to prove it to me. But I know a man doesn't change overnight. I know he can say anything he wants to "try" to make me feel better. At his point, it's not working.


----------



## southern wife

Deejo said:


> You've got it good, for the wrong guy.
> 
> You're frustrated.
> 
> Mr. Lie isn't the guy for you. You know this. But ... if heart's were logical this place would be dull.
> 
> If I had to guess, New Guy, isn't nearly as aggressive, passionate, emphatic as Weepy Lie Guy, which while making him appear more stable, dependable, and grounded, makes him look a little less exciting.
> 
> Close? Not even in the ball park?
> 
> A dozen dates with guy number 2?
> 
> So just pick whoever is better in bed, that's what all us playa's do.
> 
> And relax. All 3 of you are grown ups. Make your decision and execute.
> 
> Although I still find it creepy that Weepy Lie guy does drive bys on your address.


Yes I am very frustrated at this point.

New guy isn't as aggressive, and I'm ok with that. When we are out together at dinner or whatever, he chooses to sit beside me, instead of across the table from me. No man has ever done that. I think it's cute. He also constantly has his hand one me, whether it's my leg or holding my hand. I love that about him. He let's me know by his actions that he does like me. He also tells me he misses me when we've not seen each other for several days. So there's definitely chemistry between us, and he is passionate.

Yes I need to make my decision and execute. I'm still processing everything in my mind of how to go about it all.


----------



## 2ntnuf

southern wife said:


> I have come back this morning to re-read this post. There is a lot of insight to it and it makes sense as to what is going on with me. Some, not all, but some of my relationship with Mr. Lie IS good, otherwise I wouldn't be in it at all. But with that comes a dark cloud over it. There are things about it that I cannot live with ....very much longer. I know the end, YES THE END, is near and I'm trying to process in my mind how to go about it. My mind has taken over as of lately, overriding my heart. I have to do what's healthy for me and my mind knows this. Yes there will always be a part of me that loves him and wishes things could be different, but they're just not.
> 
> This time of year isn't making any of it any easier to deal with.



Hopefully, some men who have been dumped and didn't feel like they were seriously hurt by it, will give some insight on what happened and why they didn't get hurt as deeply. There was only one relationship I had that ended in that manner. Another, I believe I hurt the woman's feelings. Another, I was hurt, but knew it was right to get out of, even though I didn't want that. This last one...it was all wrong. I was incorrectly made out to be an extremely bad person and that was just untrue and way over-exaggerated. I loved her more deeply than any woman I've ever known. 

There is no proven way to avoid hurting someone. There are ways to limit that.

The one I got through best was my decision and she was hurt, but understood, I think. I loved her, but logic, reason and common sense prevailed. Maybe because I was being so realistic about our lives and the importance of raising children. She had several. I was growing to love them, too. I could not place their, the whole of them, mother and children, happiness in jeopardy. I did not believe I could be a father to them. I did not believe I was good enough to take care of them and so, I just admitted that to her. That's it really. I loved them all.


----------



## southern wife

2ntnuf said:


> Hopefully, some men who have been dumped and didn't feel like they were seriously hurt by it, will give some insight on what happened and why they didn't get hurt as deeply. There was only one relationship I had that ended in that manner. Another, I believe I hurt the woman's feelings. Another, I was hurt, but knew it was right to get out of, even though I didn't want that. This last one...it was all wrong. I was incorrectly made out to be an extremely bad person and that was just untrue and way over-exaggerated. I loved her more deeply than any woman I've ever known.
> 
> There is no proven way to avoid hurting someone. There are ways to limit that.
> 
> The one I got through best was my decision and she was hurt, but understood, I think. I loved her, but logic, reason and common sense prevailed. Maybe because I was being so realistic about our lives and the importance of raising children. She had several. I was growing to love them, too. I could not place their, the whole of them, mother and children, happiness in jeopardy. I did not believe I could be a father to them. I did not believe I was good enough to take care of them and so, I just admitted that to her. That's it really. I loved them all.


Mr. Lie tells me all the time that he loves me, and how much he loves me, etc. One time he told me that I was the love of his life....that was before I found out about his web of lies and the relationship was great....in my mind/heart. I feel that he does love me, and my daughter, but also feel he's just not the one for me anymore.


----------



## southern wife

Jellybeans said:


> I think you should have ended with him the moment you found out he was still living with his girlfriend, ex, stbx, whatever version he told you. There's no trust here, which means it's a waste of time, especially so soon in.
> 
> With that said:
> 
> 
> 
> You already know what I am going to say. Does he know you are still dating Mr. Lie? And do you really want to keep seeing someone you call "Mr. Lie?" Truly, SW?
> 
> 
> 
> SW.... you are my girl and I am gonna be very clear with you:
> 
> :slap:
> 
> Just no. Axe this guy. Yesterday.


Yes I should have ended it with him a long time ago. And I tried to end it with him weeks ago....caught him in a flat out lie! Left a note on his truck that said "DONE!" Then a week later he came back to my doorstep crying and wanting to work it out. Ugghhhhh I hate when a man cries! :wtf:

Also, NO, I do not want to be with a man I call, and we call, Mr. Lie. Gotta be honest, but this comment did make me laugh. 

It's also hard to be with someone that my family cannot stand!!


----------



## Jellybeans

Glad I could make you laugh. 

The quicker you rip off the band-aid, the better. Then you can begin to focus on other positive things instead of having this dude weighing you down with his shenanigans.


----------



## Wolf1974

Jellybeans said:


> Glad I could make you laugh.
> 
> The quicker you rip off the band-aid, the better. Then you can begin to focus on other positive things instead of having this dude weighing you down with his *shenanigans*.


one of my favorite words. Shenanigans !!

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Openminded

southern wife said:


> Yes I should have ended it with him a long time ago. And I tried to end it with him weeks ago....caught him in a flat out lie! Left a note on his truck that said "DONE!" Then a week later he came back to my doorstep crying and wanting to work it out. Ugghhhhh I hate when a man cries! :wtf:
> 
> Also, NO, I do not want to be with a man I call, and we call, Mr. Lie. Gotta be honest, but this comment did make me laugh.
> 
> It's also hard to be with someone that my family cannot stand!!


He uses tears to manipulate. He knows what he's doing. Don't open the door. Tell him to leave. And mean it.


----------



## southern wife

All of you guys are great. I really needed this :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip: :whip:


----------



## Jellybeans

You need to be like Justin and tell him:










Then close the door in his face. Adios, amigo.


----------



## southern wife

vellocet said:


>


Isn't a "playa" heartless and noncaring about their 'victims'?




Yeah, I'm far from that. My heart is TOO big in this situation. If I didn't care so much, I wouldn't be posting the story/issues here. I'd go on about my merry way not caring who got hurt in the process. Say what you/y'all want. No skin off my back. I know my heart, and in this situation, my head really needs to take over. I knew my friends here would set me straight :whip: and help point out the key elements of what's going on with ME!!! 

:


----------



## vellocet

southern wife said:


> Isn't a "playa" heartless and noncaring about their 'victims'?


Not necessarily. I also consider a player as someone who multidates and doesn't tell the others that they aren't the only ones.


----------



## doubletrouble

Whatever happens out there, I wish you well, EssDub!


----------



## Deejo

Here's what you do the next time he tries the 'boo hoo' routine:










Immediately followed by:


----------



## chillymorn

I don't think men have cornerd the market on middle aged players.

Just as many jaded women saying I gave my all and now its me time!


----------



## Jellybeans

doubletrouble said:


> Whatever happens out there, I wish you well,* EssDub*!


:smthumbup:


----------



## Methuselah

vellocet said:


> I also consider a player as someone who multidates and doesn't tell the others that they aren't the only ones.


This is an unreasonable expectation, unless you communicate in advance that you are looking for an exclusive dating relationship. In absence of that boundary being communicated, anyone you have a "date" or "dates" with doesn't owe you exclusivity, nor can you conjure up in your mind a restriction without having it agreed to by someone you go on a date with. Some people find serially-dating better suited to their needs, others find multi-dating better. 

All IMHO of course.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Methuselah said:


> This is an unreasonable expectation, unless you communicate in advance that you are looking for an exclusive dating relationship. In absence of that boundary being communicated, anyone you have a "date" or "dates" with doesn't owe you exclusivity, nor can you conjure up in your mind a restriction without having it agreed to by someone you go on a date with. Some people find serially-dating better suited to their needs, others find multi-dating better.
> 
> All IMHO of course.


I agreed with vellocet. I also agree that this idea has to be communicated. In most cases, the women just agreed and did as they pleased. I found out before even asking them out. Partly why I didn't really date much back between marriages. If I could not trust them with something as simple as that, where they can easily dump me at any time, why would I bother to spend a bunch of time with them? I guess for the sex that others told me I could get? Thanks, but...


----------



## heartsbeating

southern wife said:


> Racer, I appreciate your post. I can only say that for me, it's not about "good guy/bad guy". It's where my heart has been the past several months, although it's been stomped on. Mr. Lie has not set out to hurt me on purpose; it's just that I've discovered his lies and the way he's been living and called him out on all of it. All of that is on him and since it's out in the open, he says he doesn't want to live that way anymore and wants to be a better person. Is that a lie? Or truth? Only he can determine that, but I can say that he's made some necessary changes to prove it to me. But I know a man doesn't change overnight. I know he can say anything he wants to "try" to make me feel better. At his point, it's not working.


It sounds like he needs to be single for a while to figure himself out first. All the tears, the emotions, the deception, even the professions of love and yearning to be loved... I'd question if any of that was from a grounded place. 

Sure, we can be in relationships and still be figuring ourselves out, aren't we all? But for your benefit, I think you're best leaving him to sort himself out. Move on.


----------



## vellocet

Methuselah said:


> This is an unreasonable expectation, unless you communicate in advance that you are looking for an exclusive dating relationship.


Not to me its not. If I go on one date with someone and its obvious I am not going to consider them relationship material, then if I give her my considerations and go on other dates, especially paying for them, and she is playing me with other men, then she can take a sh!t and fall back in it.

There doesn't have to be a talk of exclusivity to realize that courting is the process of seeing if it will lead somewhere.

And if there is nothing wrong with multidating, then there wouldn't be any reason not to let the others know they aren't the only ones. But that rarely happens does it, and there is a reason for it. Don't want to scare off their options.

If there is no exclusivity talk, then I still deserve to know if I'm wasting my considerations on someone.

Call me crazy, but I don't like spending money on someone and giving her my respect thinking I could really develop something with them, when they are getting theirs with another guy as well.

But its a moot point for me anymore. I don't commit. My current FWB, if she wants to see other guys, have at it. Been a sweet ride.



> Some people find serially-dating better suited to their needs, others find multi-dating better.


And IMO, multidaters/serial daters do not exude a lot of confidence that they will be very faithful partners. Therefore others find dating one person and giving them a fair chance better suited to their needs.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> I agreed with vellocet. I also agree that this idea has to be communicated. In most cases, the women just agreed and did as they pleased. I found out before even asking them out. Partly why I didn't really date much back between marriages. If I could not trust them with something as simple as that, where they can easily dump me at any time, why would I bother to spend a bunch of time with them? I guess for the sex that others told me I could get? Thanks, but...


Exactly.

Like I told earlier, a girl I dated way back even before I got married, we saw each other went on quite a few dates...about a month long thing. It was OBIVOUS we liked each other, at least from my end, and I wouldn't have been able to tell the way she didn't mind me taking her out, having nice romantic evenings, etc.

She goes off one weekend to see an old boyfriend.

She gets back, I tell her I don't think we need to see each other again. She was put off because we hadn't had that "exclusivity talk" yet. Well you know what, some things just don't need to be said or explained all the time. 

I told her that while that is true, which is why I wasn't to awful mad at her, I told her if she wanted a relationship with me, she just went about it the wrong way, and I am no longer interested.

The ones that don't see a problem with multidating are the ones that want to keep their options open and expect everyone to be ok with it while they make up their mind.

Just my opinion, but any man, or a woman in the reverse situation, that lets someone they are dating pit other men against him and "fight" for her, is a fool. The other fools can have her.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I sort of figure that if she was dating others, she wasn't really interested in finding out who I am. She wasn't as interested in me as she was interested in having something to do with someone, anyone. If she ran across someone that piqued her interest, she would only drop others if he proved himself. Similar I guess, to what you are conveying vellocet. 

I guess I figure I have a better chance at finding a match, even if we don't want marriage, by eliminating those who don't want to be with only me. Somehow, I'm not what she really wants. I don't want her to settle, so I get out before she fools me into believing I am important to her.


----------



## Married but Happy

I multi-dated when I had the option, and if I'm ever in the dating game again, I'll do the same. I'm not talking about doing so for weeks or months, just the first few dates. It's efficient and effective, as I'm not going to pass up meeting someone who may be a better match than someone else I'm meeting or have just met. A couple of dates is usually sufficient to decide who's worth getting to know better, and then focusing on that one.

I also expect that anyone I meet is probably doing the same, and wisely so. Most women I've met were not sufficienty good matches to see more than a couple of times (long enough to figure that out), and no doubt many of the women I met felt the same about me. I don't want someone who isn't sure about their wants, and may just be settling for me because I'm not half bad - but may not be quite what they really want, even if _I_ feel they are ideal for me.


----------



## Deejo

vellocet said:


> Just my opinion, but any man, or a woman in the reverse situation, that lets someone they are dating pit other men against him and "fight" for her, is a fool. The other fools can have her.


Nope. Just immensely confident that I'm better than any of the other men she's dating. It isn't a fight ... it's a massacre.


----------



## chaos

vellocet said:


> Not necessarily. I also consider a player as someone who multidates and doesn't tell the others that they aren't the only ones.


The onus is not just on the player but on the others as well. They should ask if they are the only ones they are dating. At that point is up to them whether they want to continue dating the player or not.


----------



## Jellybeans

Deejo said:


> Nope. Just immensely confident that I'm better than any of the other men she's dating. It isn't a fight ... it's a massacre.


:smthumbup:


----------



## 2ntnuf

chaos said:


> The onus is not just on the player but on the others as well. They should ask if they are the only ones they are dating.


I found that many would say I was the only one until I wasn't. In other words, I never was, they just wanted to date me while they kept looking elsewhere. It looks bad when a woman isn't dating. People wonder what's wrong with her. At least, that's what I was told years ago. Either way, part of it, I imagine, is that they figure if they turn someone down, they will lose that chance to find out if they were the one, forever.


----------



## chaos

2ntnuf said:


> I found that many would say I was the only one until I wasn't. In other words, I never was, they just wanted to date me while they kept looking elsewhere. It looks bad when a woman isn't dating. People wonder what's wrong with her. At least, that's what I was told years ago. Either way, part of it, I imagine, is that they figure if they turn someone down, they will lose that chance to find out if they were the one, forever.


That is why it is important to inform the undiscovered player that he/she is not the only one that you are dating. Most players don't like this.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> Nope. Just immensely confident that I'm better than any of the other men she's dating. It isn't a fight ... it's a massacre.


Oh, I'm also confident. I'm just not going to be played like a puppet. I would feel I'm better than the men she'd be dating also.

But then she would be someone not better than someone out there that won't disrespect me in such a way.

Guess some of us here just will have to agree to see it differently. For me, I simply become uninterested if I'm spending my time and money on someone only to find out they are getting their kicks elsewhere too. Someone else can play the fool.


----------



## 2ntnuf

chaos said:


> That is why it is important to inform the undiscovered player that he/she is not the only one that you are dating. Most players don't like this.


So, you are saying you need to lie to them so you can find out the truth? I'm really...:scratchhead:

I would be what I hate. Nah...that's the start of what I don't want in my life. If I start it by being the first to lie, it makes it even worse. 

As far as confidence, I'm confident I am good enough to deserve the truth, to have a woman that will date only me, to risk her heart with, to be faithful with, and to be friends on top of lovers.

Finding a woman who believes in herself as much and is attracted to me, and I to her, is where the issue is. Starting on a deceptive footing seems like building on sand.


----------



## GusPolinski

Married but Happy said:


> I multi-dated when I had the option, and if I'm ever in the dating game again, I'll do the same. I'm not talking about doing so for weeks or months, just the first few dates. It's efficient and effective, as I'm not going to pass up meeting someone who may be a better match than someone else I'm meeting or have just met. A couple of dates is usually sufficient to decide who's worth getting to know better, and then focusing on that one.


Makes sense.



Married but Happy said:


> I also expect that anyone I meet is probably doing the same, and wisely so. Most women I've met were not sufficienty good matches to see more than a couple of times (long enough to figure that out), and no doubt many of the women I met felt the same about me. *I don't want someone who isn't sure about their wants, and may just be settling for me because I'm not half bad - but may not be quite what they really want, even if I feel they are ideal for me.*


Word.


----------



## Methuselah

When I was young, many decades ago, there was never a question whether someone I went on a date with was multi-dating or not. Unless I asked for exclusivity, I had no reason to expect it.

I would assess anyone I went on a date with who instantly expects exclusivity is overly possessive and creepy in a stalker-like way -- especially in absence of her making that boundary readily clear on our first date.

I was never worried about winning a contest for Edna's heart, she admittedly dumped numerous men courting her once my intentions became clear.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I'll ask my dentist tomorrow when I see him. He just bought a Ferrari.


----------



## GusPolinski

Deejo said:


> Nope. Just immensely confident that I'm better than any of the other men she's dating. It isn't a fight ... it's a massacre.


No dis but, if that were true (at least in her eyes), then why would she bother with dating other men?


----------



## GusPolinski

And, just out of curiosity, did SW ever provide an answer for this...?



GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... Mr. Lie knows about the new guy, but does the new guy know about Mr. Lie?


----------



## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> Oh, I'm also confident. I'm just not going to be played like a puppet. I would feel I'm better than the men she'd be dating also.
> 
> But then she would be someone not better than someone out there that won't disrespect me in such a way.
> 
> Guess some of us here just will have to agree to see it differently. For me, I simply become uninterested if I'm spending my time and money on someone only to find out they are getting their kicks elsewhere too. Someone else can play the fool.


And, it's not wrong either way. It's just a matter of where each of us places the most importance in a relationship. Is it on that person and who they are in total or is it on something else? The meaning of variety is the spice of life does not stop with sex. It also encompasses the whole of being individuals with different perspectives, beliefs, desires and needs.


----------



## Ikaika

I guess I was different than what I'm hearing on here, so don't judge me. Before I got married, I multi-dated all the time. In my defense, I never considered anyone I dated a gf and I made it clear I was not looking for a relationship of any type. If she was not "down" with those terms then there was no pleading on my part for her to stick around. So, thus I never considered myself a player, given I was up front with everything. 

Southern_Wife, I think you need to assess the situation and figure out what you are looking for and be honest with both men about each other. Let them decide what they can deal with but also be weary of trusting either till trust can be earned.


----------



## southern wife

GusPolinski said:


> And, just out of curiosity, did SW ever provide an answer for this...?


GP, I have not talked to the new guy in a few days, and I want to talk to him face to face about it. When he told me about a very recent crazy EX GF, he told me over the phone. Imma FTF kind of person.


----------



## GusPolinski

southern wife said:


> GP, I have not talked to the new guy in a few days, and I want to talk to him face to face about it. When he told me about a very recent crazy EX GF, he told me over the phone. Imma FTF kind of person.


Understood.

Is he still involved w/ the ex at all?


----------



## Married but Happy

GusPolinski said:


> No dis but, if that were true (at least in her eyes), then why would she bother with dating other men?


Let's face it - you can be the best, but not the best for her. And vice versa.

I've certainly met and dated some extraordinary women that some men would happily date and marry - but they just weren't compatible with me. It's good that we realized it before getting serious and making a huge mistake.


----------



## GusPolinski

Married but Happy said:


> Let's face it - you can be the best, but not the best for her. And vice versa.
> 
> I've certainly met and dated some extraordinary women that some men would happily date and marry - but they just weren't compatible with me. It's good that we realized it before getting serious and making a huge mistake.


I don't disagree w/ this, hence my "at least in her eyes" qualifying statement.


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> The funny thing based on this conversation is that multidaters tend to find mulitdaters and monodaters tend to find monodaters.
> 
> Success is found both ways and both strategies are just one of those indicators about personality.
> 
> In my experience, anyway.


I can agree with all of that.

But once in a while it does happen that the multidater finds a jewel of a person, that person finds out they are played, and they lose a good person.


----------



## southern wife

GusPolinski said:


> Understood.
> 
> Is he still involved w/ the ex at all?


I am not sure if she is still in the picture or not. As far as I can tell, no. But only he knows for sure.


----------



## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> And, it's not wrong either way. It's just a matter of where each of us places the most importance in a relationship.


I completely agree. If someone wants to multidate, more power to them. Just don't be an ass and let the others know your intentions and be fair to all involved. If you are spending a good amount of time with someone, but have not had that exclusivity talk, that doesn't mean the intention working toward it is there.

Just let them know you are dating others. Just sayin'

And no, the onus is not on the non multidater to get it out of the "playa"


----------



## Jellybeans

EssDub, what you really need to do is end it with Mr. Lie. 

He is dragging you down.


----------



## Deejo

GusPolinski said:


> No dis but, if that were true (at least in her eyes), then why would she bother with dating other men?


Most men suck at dating. Full stop.

You absolutely get to decide how you want your dating, or love life to operate, I'm not going to argue there.

When I date, when most people date, 1 of 3 things happens;

1. there is absolutely zero chemistry and interest. It's a one and done.

2. There is crazy chemistry, both of you feel it, and you recognize that you are going to see one another again, and likely will try to start building an exclusive relationship.

3. There simply isn't enough information yet. You met, you didn't turn your nose up at one another, and you want to learn more. So, you 'date' until such time it becomes evident there is or is not a connection.

Goals in dating may differ. When I started, I dated for no other reason than to meet people and get comfortable talking to different women after being out of the loop 2 and a half decades.

Some people may be looking for a roll in the hay, others may be looking for their next soul-mate.

I'm currently in an exclusive, loving relationship. 

I had a date a few days before and the day following meeting my GF for the first time. I had also been casually dating someone I had been in a relationship with previously. We went out together for fun, little else.

She had 3 dates scheduled and told me so on our second date. At this point it was pretty clear that we were very attracted to one another. She was up-front. So ... I was too. Made it clear that if we continued to move in a direction towards intimacy, then we needed to be exclusive. Needless to say, we are. But had I gotten my back up over her sharing that information on our second date, when it's obvious we have something, then I just threw away something wonderful. 

I don't know if we are talking about 2 different things. I guess I just find it odd that anyone is vexed or confused by this.

I want what I want. So ... I'm going to look for it. Which means I'm not going to date one person at a time, I'm going to date lots and eliminate potentials in the dating process ... that is the purpose of the date.

Her dates were pre-scheduled, as had been mine, including the date we were on. Again, as adults that tends to be how it works.

I can acknowledge that you or Vel, are entitled to what you want too, and I don't disagree with the idea of exclusivity, I just disagree with the timing in which you want to enforce it, which seems to be, immediately.

I can understand wanting to find someone with whom you align. I just sense more than a bit of defensiveness from the overall tone, especially given that a LTR isn't the desired outcome anyways.


----------



## southern wife

Jellybeans said:


> EssDub, what you really need to do is end it with Mr. Lie.
> 
> He is dragging you down.


JB, check your PM. 





I do want to add here, to all of you, that Mr. Lie and I have had and still do have a lot of good times together. When we go out, we have a blast! We enjoy the same types of things, same life style, etc. So a lot does mesh. But sometimes when I think long-term, I'm like :scratchhead: and sometimes like :nono:


----------



## vellocet

southern wife said:


> GP, I have not talked to the new guy in a few days, and I want to talk to him face to face about it. When he told me about a very recent crazy EX GF, he told me over the phone. Imma FTF kind of person.


But he told you over the phone about a crazy EX gf. So unless he is still seeing her, its not quite the same thing.


----------



## SamuraiJack

FrenchFry said:


> The funny thing based on this conversation is that multidaters tend to find mulitdaters and monodaters tend to find monodaters.
> 
> Success is found both ways and both strategies are just one of those indicators about personality.
> 
> In my experience, anyway.


Not unlike chooping lettuce for a salad from left to right versus from right to left.

In the end..it's still salad.

:toast:


----------



## Deejo

SamuraiJack said:


> Not unlike chooping lettuce for a salad from left to right versus from right to left.
> 
> In the end..it's still salad.
> 
> :toast:


Aside from the fact that chopping it left to right is plum crazy, I agree with you.


----------



## 2ntnuf

You're more closed minded than I am, if I read you right. I at least said no way is wrong or better, as long as we are honest with each other.


----------



## southern wife

FrenchFry said:


> Haha, cheers.
> 
> I'm sure I got dropped and dropped excellent people. It was just one of my own filters for compatibility--and as illuminated in this thread you can see why it's a good one!
> 
> It's all salad! SW, eat a tasty one, chopped right not with extra beets and funky corn.


I like salad!


----------



## Jellybeans

Deejo said:


> I want what I want. So ... I'm going to look for it. Which means I'm not going to date one person at a time, I'm going to date lots and eliminate potentials in the dating process ... that is the purpose of the date.


While I am not a good multi-dater, I can appreciate this point of view.



Deejo said:


> I can understand wanting to find someone with whom you align.


And this is what it is all about with dating.


----------



## Methuselah

Deejo said:


> I don't know if we are talking about 2 different things. I guess I just find it odd that anyone is vexed or confused by this.


My guess is those who (in this thread at least, seem to be men, which is not surprising for several sociological reasons, most notably men's tendencies to want to "possess" a woman) find multi-dating objectionable equate dating = intimate with.


----------



## vellocet

Methuselah said:


> My guess is those who (in this thread at least, seem to be men, which is not surprising for several sociological reasons, *most notably men's tendencies to want to "possess" a woman*) find multi-dating objectionable equate dating = intimate with.


The bolded part is completely ridiculous. But nice try.

I find multi-dating objectionable because I am not a toy to be played with and pit against other men.

I also do not like wasting my affections on someone getting it from someone else. Simple as that.

Now if we are talking about just a couple dates, ok, I'm fine with that. If I put in a few dates and find out I'm not the only one, hey, its been fun, no hard feelings.

If I have been seeing someone for some time and she didn't bother to tell me she has been going out with other men when its obvious after more than just a few dates and a few weeks that working towards a relationship is obvious, then I feel played, and I lose interest in a player. Again....simple as that.

So I take it you think expecting fairness, honesty, and respect for someone's considerations as "possessing a woman". And how is it I want to possess a woman when I've already made the decision to never enter a committed relationship ever again?


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> Oop, the bolded is my jist. I'm also pro honesty!
> 
> The rest of the sentence is if I got dropped for being a multidater it's like "Probably a good person, probably not right for me." So it was never hard feelings for being dropped for multi-dating.


So how long would you see multiple men behind the others' backs? If you are talking about maybe just a few weeks, ok, I can see that.

But what would you consider your time frame to start making a decision?


----------



## Married but Happy

If you're never going to have a committed relationship again, why would you expect someone to commit to only dating you?


----------



## GusPolinski

Deejo said:


> Most men suck at dating. Full stop.
> 
> You absolutely get to decide how you want your dating, or love life to operate, I'm not going to argue there.
> 
> When I date, when most people date, 1 of 3 things happens;
> 
> 1. there is absolutely zero chemistry and interest. It's a one and done.
> 
> 2. There is crazy chemistry, both of you feel it, and you recognize that you are going to see one another again, and likely will try to start building an exclusive relationship.
> 
> 3. There simply isn't enough information yet. You met, you didn't turn your nose up at one another, and you want to learn more. So, you 'date' until such time it becomes evident there is or is not a connection.
> 
> Goals in dating may differ. When I started, I dated for no other reason than to meet people and get comfortable talking to different women after being out of the loop 2 and a half decades.
> 
> Some people may be looking for a roll in the hay, others may be looking for their next soul-mate.
> 
> I'm currently in an exclusive, loving relationship.
> 
> I had a date a few days before and the day following meeting my GF for the first time. I had also been casually dating someone I had been in a relationship with previously. We went out together for fun, little else.
> 
> She had 3 dates scheduled and told me so on our second date. At this point it was pretty clear that we were very attracted to one another. She was up-front. So ... I was too. Made it clear that if we continued to move in a direction towards intimacy, then we needed to be exclusive. Needless to say, we are. But had I gotten my back up over her sharing that information on our second date, when it's obvious we have something, then I just threw away something wonderful.
> 
> I don't know if we are talking about 2 different things. I guess I just find it odd that anyone is vexed or confused by this.
> 
> I want what I want. So ... I'm going to look for it. Which means I'm not going to date one person at a time, I'm going to date lots and eliminate potentials in the dating process ... that is the purpose of the date.
> 
> Her dates were pre-scheduled, as had been mine, including the date we were on. Again, as adults that tends to be how it works.
> 
> I can acknowledge that you or Vel, are entitled to what you want too, and I don't disagree with the idea of exclusivity, I just disagree with the timing in which you want to enforce it, which seems to be, immediately.
> 
> I can understand wanting to find someone with whom you align. I just sense more than a bit of defensiveness from the overall tone, especially given that a LTR isn't the desired outcome anyways.


No, I actually think that we're pretty close to being on the same page.


----------



## Methuselah

vellocet said:


> So I take it you think expecting fairness, honesty, and respect for someone's considerations as "possessing a woman". And how is it I want to possess a woman when I've already made the decision to never enter a committed relationship ever again?


I fail to see how you can equate multi-dating as a lack of "fairness", "honesty" and "respect" for you, if your expectation of exclusivity is not communicated at some point to the person you're dating.

Perhaps the women are telepathic where you live, so they instantly know your expectations of singularity without you actually verbalizing them. Here outside Chicago, they're not.

If I date a woman, I have no expectations I'm the only person she's dating (nor vice-versa). If I determine after a period of time the woman is someone I wish to enter into exclusive relationship with the goal of marriage, then its up to me to vocalize that desire and obtain her agreement.

If at that point, she agrees, yet continues to multi-date, then clearly she is a "player".

You cannot label a woman a player merely because you've constructed in your own mind the fallacy of an exclusive relationship which she never agreed to.

Could be a useful tactic though, I think I will start creating the expectation in my own mind that every woman I interact with owes me her paycheck.


----------



## chaos

2ntnuf said:


> So, you are saying you need to lie to them so you can find out the truth? I'm really...:scratchhead:


On first dates, many people do state that their goal is to meet and get to know others and not necessarily for the purpose of becoming involved in a romantic relationship. How can that be construed as lying?

If one of these dates is a player, then he/she will know, that you are not a clingy and desperate person, and subject to be easily be strung along. Chances are good that you won't see him/her after that initial date.


----------



## 2ntnuf

chaos said:


> On first dates, many people do state that their goal is to meet and get to know others and not necessarily for the purpose of becoming involved in a romantic relationship. How can that be construed as lying?
> 
> If one of these dates is a player, then he/she will know, that you are not a clingy and desperate person, and subject to be easily be strung along. Chances are good that you won't see him/her after that initial date.


I took it that you were telling them you were dating others when you weren't. I probably misunderstood.


----------



## Deejo

I remember messaging with a woman on Match. We swapped a few emails, never arranged a date.

I then sent her an email and informed her out of courtesy that I wouldn't be reaching out to anymore because I was going to see where an existing dating relationship was going. In other words, I was moving into dating exclusively.

The woman to whom I thought I was being courteous, responded with a rather colorful and vitriolic email.

I kindly responded back, that she would be well served by altering her notion of dating, in that it was highly unlikely that anyone she was corresponding with, was corresponding only with her.

Perspective is everything. She felt like she was duped by a 'player', and I felt like I dodged a bunny boiler.

Vel, I can get behind the idea of you've been seeing someone over the course of 3 months, had a significant number of dates, have played tonsil hockey and find the candy in my trousers, only to find out that your date has been doing the same with a handful of other guys.

I guess my thinking is, that there are series of benchmarks or conversations that you have based upon chemistry that help illuminate the terrain that you are on. 

In my case both I and my GF literally had other dates scheduled prior to acknowledging that we were very into each other. And truth be told, having the other dates actually reinforced that fact. MY GF cancelled her last outstanding date. We acknowledged that we are into each other, agreed on exclusivity and have rapidly fallen into those common behaviors that one would expect from an exclusive, loving relationship.

Feeling duped, sucks.

However I'm also a big believer in that I don't owe anyone I'm seeing anything other than what I expect from myself. If I'm just getting to know you to determine if I like you and want to get to know you better, I don't owe you my life story, commitment, or exclusivity. 
I don't offer up that I'm dating other people. And to be clear, by 'date' I mean meeting up with and getting to know. Sex isn't involved. I have had sexual dating relationships, but again, it was pretty clear that was exactly what was going on, and again, clear that we were only sleeping with each other.

I'm not going to argue that honesty remains the best policy. It's necessary, especially if you want the relationship to grow into something more. But, to me that doesn't mean that you vomit up every potential concern on a first or second date.

I wouldn't expect anyone to offer up that they are seeing other people on a first date, any more than I expect you offer up that you have no interest in a committed LTR or marriage on a first date.


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> What is "behind each others backs" in your mind?


You are dating a few men, each of them want to continue seeing you, working towards a possible relationship, but none of them know about each other.

How long is too long to let that go on in your opinion?




> Because I never start out with the assumption of exclusivity. If you start out with that assumption when you are dating, dating me will be a heartbreak


That's why I'm asking. You don't start out with exclusivity, but how long is it before you think you should let the others know about each other?


----------



## Trickster

When the time comes for to start dating, I would totally expect the woman to be in other relationships. If she is single and hasn't dated in over six months, I would wonder why. 

Also agree with Deejo, if she had several dates lined up and chose me over one or two other men, that would show that she was really into me vs me ming her only option.

It works both ways too.
you need money to make money. You need to be dating to attract more dates... or better dates...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Trickster said:


> When the time comes for to start dating, I would totally expect the woman to be in other relationships.


Well I wouldn't "expect" her to be in other relationships, but I wouldn't look unfavorably upon it either.

But sometimes after dating a while, sometimes there is no "talk" of exclusivity, but its a shared feeling that a relationship might be going somewhere. I simply believe that's the time to be honest.

If I have dated someone for a month, and we go out all the time, intimacy, and its fairly obvious we like each other and want it to continue, even though there is no exclusivity "talk", I expect the respect and courtesy of knowing whether I'm the only one or not. I shouldn't have to come right out and say, "WE SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVE NOW".

Its not rocket science. Just be honest. Let all parties involved know what the deal is. If I dated someone for a few weeks, find out she is dating a few other guys, or just one other guy, well, I wouldn't be mad at her. Because as people here are saying, there is no "exclusivity" yet. But I want to know if I'm the only one. Or do yall think I don't get that respect of knowing?


----------



## Jellybeans

To me, The Talk is necessary for exclusivity. Without it, neither of you can really say it's a bona fide thing.


----------



## Deejo

Where SW is concerned, I'm presuming steady guy doesn't know about Lie Guy. And the only reason Lie Guy knows about steady guy is because he does drive-bys.

Also likely that Lie Guy went into exclusivity overdrive when he realized he wasn't the only rooster in the hen house.

But I still think he's a clucking idiot. 

Attraction is a crazy thing.


----------



## vellocet

Jellybeans said:


> To me, The Talk is necessary for exclusivity. Without it, neither of you can really say it's a bona fide thing.


No, not a bonafide thing. You are correct.

Maybe the reason I'm soured on it is my experience that one time with it. I never dated anyone that was dating "others". It was just the luck of the draw I suppose.

What puts me off about it all is the fact that the girl I dated went off for a weekend to spend with her ex boyfriend.

No exclusivity talk yet, but it was obvious we were working towards that. So she goes off for a weekend with him, comes back to try to act like everything is ok. 

The day she came back I expressed my concerns about her running off with an old boyfriend. She gave me the schpiel of "but we are not exclusive", paraphrasing of course, and that I can't be mad if we weren't and exclusive "item".

But then she also said that she did want to build something with me. And I asked her, "and you think running off with another man for the weekend was the way to go about it?"

Funny thing is, she never wanted to ever consider her boyfriend for long term ever again. She just wanted to get some bad boy fun. So I guess that just put me off on the whole idea here.

Perhaps my experience with that is what put me off. Maybe if she had handled it differently, I might think differently.


----------



## Jellybeans

vellocet said:


> The day she came back I expressed my concerns about her running off with an old boyfriend. She gave me the schpiel of "but we are not exclusive", paraphrasing of course, and that I can't be mad if we weren't and exclusive "item".


And this, to me, is why The Talk is important if you want exclusivity.



vellocet said:


> Perhaps my experience with that is what put me off. Maybe if she had handled it differently, I might think differently.


Why didn't you tell her you wanted exclusivity and have The Talk? If that's what you wanted.


----------



## Jellybeans

Deejo said:


> Where SW is concerned, I'm presuming steady guy doesn't know about Lie Guy. And the only reason Lie Guy knows about steady guy is because *he does drive-bys.*


:rofl:



Deejo said:


> Also likely that Lie Guy went into exclusivity overdrive when he realized he wasn't the only rooster in the hen house.
> 
> But I still think he's a clucking idiot.
> 
> Attraction is a crazy thing.


I 100% agree. Seems he wanted his toy when he wanted them but didn't want anyone else playing with them when he found someone might like them, too. 

He just generally sounds like an a$$hat (sorry, SW, but these are my feelings).


----------



## vellocet

Jellybeans said:


> Why didn't you tell her you wanted exclusivity and have The Talk? If that's what you wanted.


To me, some things don't really have to be said.

Call me crazy, but if there is no talk of exclusivity, and I really like a woman, why the hell would I go off with some other woman, or date others? I just feel like it wouldn't be fair to the one I like if she is giving me the respect of her time and affections.

But for me personally, its a moot point. I no longer engage in exclusivity. I still don't multi-date, because for me it would be a hassle, but anyone I'm with knows I'm not looking for a relationship right off the bat.


----------



## Jellybeans

Guess the bottom line is just finding someone who shares similar views.

Sorry for the thread-jacking SW.


----------



## GusPolinski

Jellybeans said:


> And this, to me, is why The Talk is important if you want exclusivity.
> 
> 
> 
> Why didn't you tell her you wanted exclusivity and have The Talk? If that's what you wanted.


I read it like this -- they were moving toward exclusivity (or, at the very least, Vel was) and were in a sort of brief lull between realization and the actual discussion.

But still... if she took off w/ her ex for the weekend, that says a lot about where her head was at. It's one thing for her to _say_ that she wanted exclusivity w/ Vel and then spend the weekend w/ the ex solely because they hadn't had the talk yet, but it's another thing entirely to realize that, if her ex had wanted anything beyond a weekend of fun w/ her, Vel may have never heard from her again.

Honestly, I think that a lot of us are pretty much on the same page at this point... especially w/ respect to the notion that Mr. Lie is a d**chebag. 

No, seriously, though... Some of my earlier comments (one in particular) were based on a misconception that I'd apparently gotten from (mis)reading one of Deejo's replies. He's since cleared that up.

Personally, should I find myself single again, I don't really see myself multi-dating, but I can't really see a problem w/ it just so long as all parties are informed. So I guess that the only remaining "issue" (if you could call it that) w/ the concept is the assumption that everyone is doing it these days and, based on that, there's no need to explicitly volunteer that information...? Maybe I'm a bit old-fashioned, but that does seem a bit odd to me. 

But, honestly, it does make sense, and I can definitely see the benefit for those w/ a career, kids, etc. It's just more _efficient_.


----------



## Deejo

FrenchFry said:


> Also, multidating vs monodating we can totally start a thread and talk about it later!


Good idea. Will give 'The Singles of TAM another thread to post several hundred replies per hour in.

I'll put it up.


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> Also, multidating vs monodating we can totally start a thread and talk about it later!


Sure, we could. But its sort of on topic.

Because the question is of middle aged men being players.

But isn't SW playing Steady Guy by still being involved with Lie Guy? I think she needs to have that "talk" with him sooner rather than later.


----------



## Jellybeans

Unless the reason for not having the talk is because she's not sold on being exclusive yet.


----------



## Jellybeans

Oh, girl, you just NAILED IT!


----------



## vellocet

Jellybeans said:


> Unless the reason for not having the talk is because she's not sold on being exclusive yet.


Well I'm going on Deejo's description as being "steady guy". To me steady means exclusive.

But not sure where he got that from.


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> Too many red flags with one and not enough feelings for the other!


Long thread, and maybe I missed it.

But what is the red flag with "Steady Guy"? Or "New Guy", whichever is more accurate.


----------



## Deejo

vellocet said:


> Well I'm going on Deejo's description as being "steady guy". To me steady means exclusive.
> 
> But not sure where he got that from.


He isn't either. I meant that he seems rather steady than the emotional frappe that is Mr. Lie.

Regular guy or Mr. Vanilla may have also sufficed.


----------



## vellocet

FrenchFry said:


> Oh no, Mr. Lie has too many red flags.
> 
> Steady/New guy from my limited perspective looks like a cool enough dude (as in, he isn't nicknamed Mr. Lie) but cool enough isn't provoking any sort of lockdown talks.
> 
> *This is probably why so many middle aged people are "players," to be honest*.


Oh I agree with you there, and can help answer the question of the thread.

I'm not a player, but because of all the games people play when courting, I'm done. I've had enough of it.

I don't commit any longer, but difference between a player and myself, anyone I'm with knows right up front that I'm not looking for a relationship. And if someone I'm seeing casually wants to see someone else, no problems there. It isn't going to hurt my feelings like it would have in my early days when searching for a companion.


----------



## vellocet

Deejo said:


> He isn't either. I meant that he seems rather steady than the emotional frappe that is Mr. Lie.
> 
> Regular guy or Mr. Vanilla may have also sufficed.


Gotcha!


----------



## Methuselah

Deejo said:


> ---snip---I wouldn't expect anyone to offer up that they are seeing other people on a first date, any more than I expect you offer up that you have no interest in a committed LTR or marriage on a first date.


This is perhaps one of the best posts I've ever read on this subject. If I could like it twice, I would.


----------



## southern wife

Deejo said:


> Where SW is concerned, I'm presuming steady guy doesn't know about Lie Guy. And the only reason Lie Guy knows about steady guy is because he does drive-bys.
> 
> Also likely that Lie Guy went into exclusivity overdrive when he realized he wasn't the only rooster in the hen house.
> 
> But I still think he's a clucking idiot.
> 
> Attraction is a crazy thing.


I'm not sure how many times he drove by my house, but this one time that he drove by and told me about it, he did see another man's car in my driveway. That's when he showed up the next morning ringing my doorbell. The car was still in my driveway. Mr. Lie was storing his drums in my spare room and wanted them back pronto. I told him right now is not a good time for me. After saying that to him a few times, he finally left.....knowing I was not going to let him in. I let him know when he could come back to get them. By that evening, he was wanting to talk to me and work things out with me. Yes THAT evening! So perhaps he did go into overdrive and felt desperate to win me back and change his ways. 

*My thoughts NOW though, are can he change for good? Does the right woman coming along make a man want to change himself to be a better man? That's my question!*

That's what I'm wondering and trying to find out....why I'm giving him this final chance. I do love him. If I didn't, he'd be long gone.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

What an interesting thread. SW, I hope you choose in whatever way brings you the most happiness.

I find this thread interesting because we start with "middle aged men being players, cheats etc." and it's simply because the OP is multidating 2 guys and the guy she is more emotionally drawn too is a player and cheat which means she can't have what she wants.

If Mr. Lie just wasn't....well...Mr.. Lie...he'd be perfect and there would be no issues LOL.

The only thing I'd add to this discussion about multi-dating and should you tell the people involved etc.

Well there's going on dates...and there's dating...and they are very different. If you're just going on dates with someone and there's no emotional investment yet....all's fair if you will.

But if you've been dating someone, where there's an emotional investment by both parties, you don't owe exclusivity, but you do owe openness. Just my opinion.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

southern wife said:


> I'm not sure how many times he drove by my house, but this one time that he drove by and told me about it, he did see another man's car in my driveway. That's when he showed up the next morning ringing my doorbell. The car was still in my driveway. Mr. Lie was storing his drums in my spare room and wanted them back pronto. I told him right now is not a good time for me. After saying that to him a few times, he finally left.....knowing I was not going to let him in. I let him know when he could come back to get them. By that evening, he was wanting to talk to me and work things out with me. Yes THAT evening! So perhaps he did go into overdrive and felt desperate to win me back and change his ways.
> 
> *My thoughts NOW though, are can he change for good? Does the right woman coming along make a man want to change himself to be a better man? That's my question!*
> 
> That's what I'm wondering and trying to find out....why I'm giving him this final chance. I do love him. If I didn't, he'd be long gone.


Human's can change behaviors, but if it's in the core of who they are...it'll never change.

PS why don't you let Mr. Stable go though? He's obviously not a first choice guy for you. Which means even if you dump Mr. Lie, you're still settling for him.


----------



## GusPolinski

southern wife said:


> I'm not sure how many times he drove by my house, but this one time that he drove by and told me about it, he did see another man's car in my driveway. That's when he showed up the next morning ringing my doorbell. The car was still in my driveway. *Mr. Lie was storing his drums in my spare room and wanted them back pronto.* I told him right now is not a good time for me. After saying that to him a few times, he finally left.....knowing I was not going to let him in. I let him know when he could come back to get them. By that evening, he was wanting to talk to me and work things out with me. Yes THAT evening! So perhaps he did go into overdrive and felt desperate to win me back and change his ways.
> 
> *My thoughts NOW though, are can he change for good? Does the right woman coming along make a man want to change himself to be a better man? That's my question!*
> 
> That's what I'm wondering and trying to find out....why I'm giving him this final chance. I do love him. If I didn't, he'd be long gone.


And there it is.


----------



## Jellybeans

There what is? Why did you highlight the drums?


----------



## southern wife

vellocet said:


> Sure, we could. But its sort of on topic.
> 
> Because the question is of middle aged men being players.
> 
> But isn't SW playing Steady Guy by still being involved with Lie Guy? I think she needs to have that "talk" with him sooner rather than later.


The one you're calling "steady guy" is not "steady". We've been on less than a baker's dozen dates. :scratchhead:

So he is "New Guy". Mr. Lie has been in my life since August, off for 2 solid weeks in Oct...due to his lies. (This is the time that met New Guy and had a few dates (no kisses, no sex, just meeting for dinner and hug afterwards). Back on with Mr. Lie at the end of Oct. His b'day was toward end of Nov. At that time, I did spend his b'day weekend with him, took him out, gave him a gift, HOWEVER I was having a very hard time dealing *internally* with everything I found out about him and his lies. At that point, he made no attempt to show me was very serious about making the necessary changes to prove himself worthy of me. Guess what? I broke up with him. I went on some more dates with New Guy and he told me about his "crazy EX GF" as he stated. Was she really? I have no idea. I only know his side. Anyway, this is the timeframe New Buys car was at my house, and Mr. Lie drove by and saw it. This is when Mr. Lie totally broke down and said things like "I love you, I want you, I need you.........ONLY YOU!" And LOTS of other things. This is when he deleted ppl off his FB and out of his phone contacts. This is when he took the password protection off of his phone. He knows I periodically look at his phone, and he also shows it to me. He's trying. He knows he has ONE last chance with me and that's it. So far, he's doing/saying all the right things. His actions are matching his words, and vice versa.


----------



## southern wife

Dad&Hubby said:


> What an interesting thread. SW, I hope you choose in whatever way brings you the most happiness.
> 
> 
> If Mr. Lie just wasn't....well...Mr.. Lie...he'd be perfect and there would be no issues LOL.


D&H, I will choose what makes me happy, trust me. 

And you're right, if Mr. Lie didn't do all of those things, yes he'd be about perfect .........for me. So who's to say he can't change, on his own will, to be that man?


----------



## vellocet

southern wife said:


> The one you're calling "steady guy" is not "steady". We've been on less than a baker's dozen dates. :scratchhead:


I quoted "steady guy" because someone else called him that. I just took it to mean that he was considered to be in a relationship with you.

And if you are close to a baker's dozen, then that aint nothing to sneeze at.




> So he is "New Guy". Mr. Lie has been in my life since August, off for 2 solid weeks in Oct...due to his lies. (This is the time that met New Guy and had a few dates (no kisses, no sex, just meeting for dinner and hug afterwards). Back on with Mr. Lie at the end of Oct. His b'day was toward end of Nov. At that time, I did spend his b'day weekend with him, took him out, gave him a gift, HOWEVER I was having a very hard time dealing *internally* with everything I found out about him and his lies. At that point, he made no attempt to show me was very serious about making the necessary changes to prove himself worthy of me. Guess what? I broke up with him. I went on some more dates with New Guy and he told me about his "crazy EX GF" as he stated. Was she really? I have no idea. I only know his side. Anyway, this is the timeframe New Buys car was at my house, and Mr. Lie drove by and saw it. This is when Mr. Lie totally broke down and said things like "I love you, I want you, I need you.........ONLY YOU!" And LOTS of other things. This is when he deleted ppl off his FB and out of his phone contacts. This is when he took the password protection off of his phone. He knows I periodically look at his phone, and he also shows it to me. He's trying. He knows he has ONE last chance with me and that's it. So far, he's doing/saying all the right things. His actions are matching his words, and vice versa.


So if I am getting ALL of that right....."new guy" seems to be a pretty decent guy.....but looks like he is losing to Mr. Jackass.

So looks like you are working towards a relationship with Mr. Jackass. So isn't it time to let "new guy" go? This isn't really fair to him. Or tell him and let him decide what is fair or if he wants to stay.


----------



## southern wife

Dad&Hubby said:


> Human's can change behaviors, but if it's in the core of who they are...it'll never change.
> 
> PS why don't you let Mr. Stable go though? He's obviously not a first choice guy for you. Which means even if you dump Mr. Lie, you're still settling for him.


New Guy (or Mr. Stable) and I have not been in contact all week. If he contacts me, he will know my situation and he will know that I'm not going to see him anymore.

By hearing nothing from him, which is odd after everyday contact since Oct, I'm thinking his crazy EX GF is back in the picture. Either way, matter none to me at this point.

I've made my choice, and I'm living with it. I'm processing it all, and trying to move forward HOPING Mr. Lie can really become Mr. Wonderful. If not, I'll accept that and keep moving forward. I was ok before he came along, and I'll be ok....otherwise, if it comes to that.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

southern wife said:


> D&H, I will choose what makes me happy, trust me.
> 
> And you're right, if Mr. Lie didn't do all of those things, yes he'd be about perfect .........for me. So who's to say he can't change, on his own will, to be that man?


I truly wish this were true but here are the 2 biggest mistakes made in marriage/relationships.

Women hope their men will change
Men hope their women won't change

Unfortunately.....well we know track records.

PS that phrase is obviously vague and incomplete...but you get the idea.


----------



## vellocet

southern wife said:


> New Guy (or Mr. Stable) and I have not been in contact all week. If he contacts me, he will know my situation and he will know that I'm not going to see him anymore.


Very well :smthumbup:


----------



## Ikaika

Dad&Hubby said:


> I truly wish this were true but here are the 2 biggest mistakes made in marriage/relationships.
> 
> 
> 
> Women hope their men will change
> 
> Men hope their women won't change
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately.....well we know track records.
> 
> 
> 
> PS that phrase is obviously vague and incomplete...but you get the idea.



Sometimes, albeit much more the rare situation, changes happen for the better. But, as we all know:

Change has to be what that person wants to do 
And
As I think has already been mentioned true change comes from the inherent understanding of "the right things to do".


----------



## Methuselah

southern wife said:


> and trying to move forward HOPING Mr. Lie can really become Mr. Wonderful.


I'm guessing you'll be back here in a few months telling us what an anal orifice Mr. Lie is.

A zebra can't change its stripes.


----------



## Deejo

Solution seems pretty obvious to me. 

You need to keep dating dudes so Mr. Lie stays on his toes.


----------



## PreRaphaelite

southern wife said:


> I went on some more dates with New Guy and he told me about his "crazy EX GF" as he stated. Was she really? I have no idea. I only know his side. Anyway, this is the timeframe New Buys car was at my house, and Mr. Lie drove by and saw it. This is when Mr. Lie totally broke down and said things like "I love you, I want you, I need you.........ONLY YOU!" And LOTS of other things. This is when he deleted ppl off his FB and out of his phone contacts. This is when he took the password protection off of his phone. He knows I periodically look at his phone, and he also shows it to me. He's trying. He knows he has ONE last chance with me and that's it. So far, he's doing/saying all the right things. His actions are matching his words, and vice versa.


Dunno what to say SW, but color me skeptical. Of course he's saying all the right things, his victory is getting away from him. Time to bury the competition and prove who's the man around.

I sincerely hope he never gets bored. 

Meanwhile, boring Mr. New Guy may be sensing your lack of enthusiasm, which is why he hasn't contacted you in weeks? The gig is finished because it never got started. Just a thought.


----------



## southern wife

Dad&Hubby said:


> I truly wish this were true but here are the 2 biggest mistakes made in marriage/relationships.
> 
> Women hope their men will change
> Men hope their women won't change
> 
> Unfortunately.....well we know track records.
> 
> PS that phrase is obviously vague and incomplete...but you get the idea.


I get the idea, but here's the difference: *I* am not trying to change him. He's wanting to change himself to be a better man. I can only hope he means that and sticks with it. Otherwise he's a goner!


----------



## southern wife

Methuselah said:


> I'm guessing you'll be back here in a few months telling us what an anal orifice Mr. Lie is.
> 
> A zebra can't change its stripes.


No love, I'm here NOW telling y'all that NOW. 

I'm hoping to update in a few months that Mr. Lie has transformed himself into Mr. Wonderful. He's a human being, not a zebra. 

But I'm not putting a lot of stock into that. I'm watching the process, trying to trust, but verify.


----------



## southern wife

Ikaika said:


> Sometimes, albeit much more the rare situation, changes happen for the better. But, as we all know:
> 
> Change has to be what that person wants to do
> And
> As I think has already been mentioned true change comes from the inherent understanding of "the right things to do".


I do see every day that he is trying. He says it's what he wants to do....to change to be a better man.


----------



## southern wife

Deejo said:


> Solution seems pretty obvious to me.
> 
> You need to keep dating dudes so Mr. Lie stays on his toes.


Perhaps I can create that illusion without actually going that route. :scratchhead:


----------



## southern wife

FrenchFry said:


> Too many red flags with one and not enough feelings for the other!


Tons of red flags, yes. We're trying to put those in the past, and move forward with the transformed man he wants, and is trying to be. He is making strides in this, and his actions are showing it. One wrong turn, he's gone.


*As for New guy, his crazy EX GF is back in his picture* (and I'm ok with that; I had no emotional investment in him at this point). *That has been confirmed. *


----------



## southern wife

PreRaphaelite said:


> Dunno what to say SW, but color me skeptical. Of course he's saying all the right things, his victory is getting away from him. Time to bury the competition and prove who's the man around.
> 
> I sincerely hope he never gets bored.
> 
> Meanwhile, boring Mr. New Guy may be sensing your lack of enthusiasm, which is why he hasn't contacted you in weeks? The gig is finished because it never got started. Just a thought.


I never said New guy was boring.  We did have a lot of fun on our dates. Lots to talk about, laugh about, etc.


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## Deejo

Maybe it's me, but the site seems awfully judgmental over the last year or so. I mean there have always been the pits of vitriol and despair to be found in CWI, but hell, it just seems everywhere now ... even in the parenting forum.

Just want to pause a moment and say I like your style SW.

Hope it works out with one of these jamokes. If it doesn't, on to the next.


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## Ikaika

Deejo said:


> Maybe it's me, but the site seems awfully judgmental over the last year or so. I mean there have always been the pits of vitriol and despair to be found in CWI, but hell, it just seems everywhere now ... even in the parenting forum.
> 
> Just want to pause a moment and say I like your style SW.
> 
> Hope it works out with one of these jamokes. If it doesn't, on to the next.



Agree. We don't know all the IRL aspects of what southern is dealing with and one should not judge without knowledge.

ETA: I was never a player


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## southern wife

Deejo said:


> Maybe it's me, but the site seems awfully judgmental over the last year or so. I mean there have always been the pits of vitriol and despair to be found in CWI, but hell, it just seems everywhere now ... even in the parenting forum.
> 
> Just want to pause a moment and say I like your style SW.
> 
> Hope it works out with one of these jamokes. If it doesn't, on to the next.


Thanks, Deej! 

My focus is on one right now. When/if it's time for me to make a change (kick 'em to the curb), I'll certainly do that. For now, I feel it in my heart to give this ONE last shot. If it fails, it won't be on my end. It'll be on his and he'll just have to live with the consequences of his actions. Believe me, it's not been an easy road for him either. He knows the pain I've been through because of his actions, lies, and deceit. He knows I'm verifying. 

He made the comment the other night about this being our first Christmas together, and hopes for many more. Weeks ago, he helped me get everything out of the attic, and helped my daughter and me decorate the tree/house. He saw our stockings hung by the fireplace, including my dog's, and I'm sure he wanted one, too. Some of my tree decorations are about my daughter and me, whether it's our initial, an ornament with our names on them, etc.

I went shopping yesterday after work and bought a few ornaments with his first name initial, and 2 with his first name on them. I also bought a stocking for him and hot glued the letters of his first name on it. I hung the stocking before he came over. I put his ornaments in a gift bag and gave it to him when he arrived. He opened the gift and it brought tears to his eyes. He hugged me tightly and said this is the best Christmas present and said he needed nothing else for Christmas. He went into the living room to hang them on the tree, and noticed his new stocking hanging with ours. More tears, more hugs. I could tell my gesture really touched his heart. I told him our first Christmas tree together wasn't complete with something of his on it.


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## southern wife

Ikaika said:


> Agree. We don't know all the IRL aspects of what southern is dealing with and one should not judge without knowledge.
> 
> ETA: I was never a player


I don't consider myself a player. I've just been processing everything that I've been through with this man, and that process included meeting another man while broken up with the first. I never considered dating 2 men at the same time. I've always been a 1-man gal. So this has certainly been awkward for me.

I just can't help that my heart and emotions are with "Mr. Lie wannabe Mr. Wonderful".


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## PreRaphaelite

southern wife said:


> I never said New guy was boring.  We did have a lot of fun on our dates. Lots to talk about, laugh about, etc.


The part I missed was that Mr. New Guy's ex-gf is back in the picture. That definitely changes things and I wouldn't fault you a bit for not seeing him anymore. 

As for Mr. Lie. He may be sincere right now, but the bird doesn't change it's feathers that easily unless something in him has changed. You understand you're taking a risk and that the moment he's sure he's got you and won the Dating Game, other thoughts may enter his head. Wish ya luck.


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## CuddleBug

Married but Happy said:


> Marriage?


:rofl::rofl::rofl::iagree::iagree::iagree:


I am getting older now and I am not a player. Mrs.CuddleBug has lost a lot of weight, braces, hairstyles new clothes, starting to get a sex drive and comfortable with me telling her she's sexy, soft, etc. Before she started doing all this, taking care of herself, I did do the chatting and flirting with the ladies, yes, I admit this and I was very bad too. I gave it all up many years ago though and this year 2014, was the transformation year of Mrs.CuddleBug. The only reason I chatted and flirted with the lades years ago, was because Mrs.CuddleBug only wanted sex 1x month, needed to lose a lot of weight, not sexy, never dressed sexy, and I was starved and miserable. Once she started taking care of herself and my main needs, things changed fast and I've never looked back.:smthumbup:

To eliminate the temptations of the sexy ladies out there, I don't go to the beaches, don't go to the malls, and my wifee cuts my hair. I only occasionally view porn as my release but that too will disappear as her transformation continues and her sex drive increases.

Ladies today are sexually liberated and equal to us men. They can do sexually whatever and whenever they want to and that's about time. I've also noticed the ladies take the initiative more today and age isn't a major factor like it was in high school for me. I've had ladies in their teens, 20's, 30, to 50's flirting with me, starting up conversation and checking me out trying not to be obvious. When I was in high school, guys and gals were about the same age. Today, that is not the case and ages range wildly. Guy could date and marry a girl 5, 10, 15+ years older and vise versa. Guy is around 45 and his wifee is about 30. Guy could be 5+ years younger than his girlfriend. It doesn't matter anymore and the way I see it, its how mentally mature we all are versus more the age.

When I was in my teens, I only wanted 30+ year old ladies because I liked mature women and not young women. Today, I like younger women because it makes me feel young again. Ladies are no different in this regard.


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## southern wife

PreRaphaelite said:


> The part I missed was that Mr. New Guy's ex-gf is back in the picture. That definitely changes things and I wouldn't fault you a bit for not seeing him anymore.
> 
> As for Mr. Lie. He may be sincere right now, but the bird doesn't change it's feathers that easily unless something in him has changed. You understand you're taking a risk and that the moment he's sure he's got you and won the Dating Game, other thoughts may enter his head. Wish ya luck.


Yes, I know the risk and I'm fully aware. I still verify. So far he's being truthful about things. Last night he told me that he loves me more and more every day. 

Last week he played and sang this song to me (he use to be in a band). It touched me and brought tears to my eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWcs1GmJRQs


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## Ikaika

southern wife said:


> Yes, I know the risk and I'm fully aware. I still verify. So far he's being truthful about things. Last night he told me that he loves me more and more every day.
> 
> 
> 
> Last week he played and sang this song to me (he use to be in a band). It touched me and brought tears to my eyes:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWcs1GmJRQs



I'm kind of curious, SW, how long into the relationship, did "he" (not Mr. New guy) use the words I love you? I'm not saying this is a concern necessarily, I'm just wondering. I'm also not assuming he is toying with your emotions, but if it were me I would be concern of this happened early into the relationship. But, as always there may be things most of us may not understand, not being there in your situation.


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## southern wife

Ikaika said:


> I'm kind of curious, SW, how long into the relationship, did "he" (not Mr. New guy) use the words I love you? I'm not saying this is a concern necessarily, I'm just wondering. I'm also not assuming he is toying with your emotions, but if it were me I would be concern of this happened early into the relationship. But, as always there may be things most of us may not understand, not being there in your situation.


About 3 weeks after we started seeing each other. And we had not been intimate either.


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## Ikaika

southern wife said:


> About 3 weeks after we started seeing each other. And we had not been intimate either.



Ok, just wondering. As always I trust you will continue to test those words with actions.


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## southern wife

Ikaika said:


> Ok, just wondering. As always I trust you will continue to test those words with actions.


Despite him having outpatient knee surgery yesterday, which I took him to (had bone spurs removed), he did make my breakfast and coffee this morning. I was going to make his breakfast, but he was already up. I think the meds are messing him up. He was up watching TV in the middle of the night, and then got up again after 5 AM. Of course he's sleeping now. :sleeping:


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## doubletrouble

Deejo said:


> Most men suck at dating. Full stop.
> 
> You absolutely get to decide how you want your dating, or love life to operate, I'm not going to argue there.
> 
> When I date, when most people date, 1 of 3 things happens;
> 
> 1. there is absolutely zero chemistry and interest. It's a one and done.
> 
> 2. There is crazy chemistry, both of you feel it, and you recognize that you are going to see one another again, and likely will try to start building an exclusive relationship.
> 
> 3. There simply isn't enough information yet. You met, you didn't turn your nose up at one another, and you want to learn more. So, you 'date' until such time it becomes evident there is or is not a connection.
> 
> Goals in dating may differ. When I started, I dated for no other reason than to meet people and get comfortable talking to different women after being out of the loop 2 and a half decades.
> 
> Some people may be looking for a roll in the hay, others may be looking for their next soul-mate.
> 
> I'm currently in an exclusive, loving relationship.
> 
> I had a date a few days before and the day following meeting my GF for the first time. I had also been casually dating someone I had been in a relationship with previously. We went out together for fun, little else.
> 
> She had 3 dates scheduled and told me so on our second date. At this point it was pretty clear that we were very attracted to one another. She was up-front. So ... I was too. Made it clear that if we continued to move in a direction towards intimacy, then we needed to be exclusive. Needless to say, we are. But had I gotten my back up over her sharing that information on our second date, when it's obvious we have something, then I just threw away something wonderful.
> 
> I don't know if we are talking about 2 different things. I guess I just find it odd that anyone is vexed or confused by this.
> 
> *I want what I want. So ... I'm going to look for it. Which means I'm not going to date one person at a time, I'm going to date lots and eliminate potentials in the dating process ... that is the purpose of the date.
> *
> Her dates were pre-scheduled, as had been mine, including the date we were on. Again, as adults that tends to be how it works.
> 
> I can acknowledge that you or Vel, are entitled to what you want too, and I don't disagree with the idea of exclusivity, I just disagree with the timing in which you want to enforce it, which seems to be, immediately.
> 
> I can understand wanting to find someone with whom you align. I just sense more than a bit of defensiveness from the overall tone, especially given that a LTR isn't the desired outcome anyways.


I think some confusion is "dating" means having sex. I've dated and not had sex... and dated and had sex. But those are two entirely different kinds of dates. 

Meeting someone for dinner to get to know them is a date. 

Meeting someone in a hot tub with champagne will probably have a different outcome. 

The main thing seems to be communication, which is something all of us suck at now and then.


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## southern wife

I just wanted to update that the Christmas holiday went very well. Mr. Improved (dude formerly known as Mr. Lie) went above and beyond my expectations for Christmas. I'm a simple low maintenance gal, but he bought me diamond earrings and a heart-shaped diamond necklace for Christmas. He also bought a commercial style patio heater for my screened in porch! Very nice of him!! Very thoughtful and very sweet. We spent a lot of time together and all great with us. 

He's been talking about the New Year and how he has a positive outlook on the upcoming year with me. We both want to have a great year.....together. We shall see.

I hope everyone had a very merry Christmas, and HAPPY NEW YEAR!


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## Deejo

Well, Mr. Improved sounds wonderful.

Wish you both much happiness in the coming year.


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## Methuselah

southern wife said:


> he bought me diamond earrings and a heart-shaped diamond necklace for Christmas.


Did you check to see if they were real, or CZ?

I'm guessing CZ.


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## Strawberry Shortcake

Because a lot (not all) but a lot of women now days allow men to be so disrespectful and get away with it. They actually embrace being the side woman. Really sad.


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## doubletrouble

Diamonds are better than flowers after a major fvckup.


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## Ikaika

Good to hear... A side note (SW this is not to make you feel bad). We don't do diamonds in our household especially in light of the industry in its totality. Needless to say, he made some great strides forward.


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