# Is an EA an "all or nothing" event



## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i just ocurred to me, reading the "Wife Texting Old Friend" thread about an EA: if you catch your spouse in an EA, does that mean the end to your marriage or they have to end the EA immediately?

In other words, is is techinically possible to have an EA as well as being married, and have both continue on for a significant period of time? (yes it is wrong for the marriage, but it happens so much, and is reported here so many times...is there some alternative to divorce?)

I guess another way of thinking about it, Can you love more than one person at a time? Can you seek support from someone outside of your marriage?

There CAN be uses for an EA. Such as your marriage is weak, but instead of divorcing or actual physical cheating, you find a friend for emotional support? Or you have a relative sexless marriage, find someone who turns you on, which then you used to increase your horniness for your actual spouse hoping to get the sex life back again?

it seems the mantra here is usually "you have discovered an EA, you have to divorce your spouse as they are cheating!". but is that actually the case. is there any wiggle room at all? Is there some way to use discovery of an EA to fix things that are slipping in the marriage...kind of like a wake-up call.


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## Fly With Me (Jul 11, 2021)

Is there some way to use discovery of an EA to fix things that are slipping in the marriage...kind of like a wake-up call.
[/QUOTE]

That's what we did. I think a lot depends on how the affair is discovered and how the spouse in the affair then acts afterwards.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Fly With Me said:


> That's what we did. I think a lot depends on how the affair is discovered and how the spouse in the affair then acts afterwards.


exactly the sort of thing i was wondering. finding the EA out, especially if nothing physical happened, can just be like warning light going on on your car's dashboard.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Well it's not like an actual (physical) affair though. I mean in this era when so many people want to identify as victims, I can see why people will cry "emotional affair". Yet really it's pretty much just a euphamism for someone having a friend or friends (that the victim may not like).

That said I guess some people place a lot of stock in what people may or may not think or feel, so given that I guess they worry about illusory things like that.

As for myself I care about what people actually do, rather than what they think. Since until actual actions occur. What someone thinks is moot.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

I believe that if you love your spouse deeply and truly, you should never have “friends” outside of your marriage at that level of intimacy even if nothing physical occurs. For instance, throughout my 27 year marriage there have been occasions where men would try to get close to me in that way through more intimate conversations and my immediate and strong reaction was always to shut that down because I am a married person. It wasn’t ever anything I had to think about.

If your marriage is rocky, the worst thing you can do is give your emotional energy to someone else because that will simply make your marriage even rockier. That is like having a dying, brown, and wilted garden which you ignore to go water someone else’s garden. There is never a “use” for an EA.

In addition, EA’s turn in to PA’s without much of a jump.

If you need support outside of your marriage, that is what your friends of the same sex are for. I have many friends who help me through the bad stuff. None of them are male.

My STBX had an EA and then a years-long PA with a co-worker. He saw no problem at the beginning confiding in her about the problems in our marriage, and now here we are.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

I don’t think of an EA differently than a PA.
I know it is different but the impact on a relationship is the same. Severity is different and it makes the next step harder, but I don’t think of them differently.

Yes, you can come back from it under the right conditions.
Yes you can keep doing it if partners agree
Yes you can love more than one person at a time, however, you can only be fully devoted to one.
Yes you can have a cuckold scenario and let it continue as something that helps (so f weird to me)

Im pro-marriage so I never jump to divorce in EA or PA situations. But I do always jump to getting out of the infidelity, which often involves separation so that BS can think clearly about the situation.

If your WS has the right heart about what has happened, what it did to the relationship, and BS pain, then I think R can be successful.

I’ve been burned by false R so I know the conditions for success are pretty tight and chances for success are small. But it can be done.

People have value, marriages have value, if there’s a way forward it should be considered.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> i just ocurred to me, reading the "Wife Texting Old Friend" thread about an EA: if you catch your spouse in an EA, does that mean the end to your marriage or they have to end the EA immediately?
> 
> In other words, is is techinically possible to have an EA as well as being married, and have both continue on for a significant period of time? (yes it is wrong for the marriage, but it happens so much, and is reported here so many times...is there some alternative to divorce?)
> 
> ...


I 'm assuming you are talking about some kind of emotional attachments between males and females. 

How long do you think it is just going to remain emotional? And since it is usually some kind of physical or sexual attraction that draws people together in the first place, you have to factor that in as well anytime someone says, "he's just a friend." 

I think what you are really asking here is something more along the lines of polyamory. You are more less asking if polyamory can work where someone is basically in an ongoing relationship that is consensual by all parties. 

The answer to that is obviously yes it can work because there are lots of people out there in poly relationships. 

The question is will it work in YOUR specific situation and will your partner agree to it. 

For most people, outsourcing either emotional time and energy or sexual time and energy with other people is simply a no-go. 

Adults are like little kids with toys. They are also fascinated by and want to play with another kid's toys,, but they never want anyone messing with their own. We think we grow out of that but we never do.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> Well it's not like an actual (physical) affair though. I mean in this era when so many people want to identify as victims, I can see why people will cry "emotional affair". Yet really it's pretty much just a euphamism for someone having a friend or friends (that the victim may not like).
> 
> That said I guess some people place a lot of stock in what people may or may not think or feel, so given that I guess they worry about illusory things like that.
> 
> As for myself I care about what people actually do, rather than what they think. Since until actual actions occur. What someone thinks is moot.


In the case of an EA the actions are the intimate conversations. Intimate conversations that often have a romantic tone if not outright love and sex. I don't think these are cases of just having "friends". The EA is just step one going into a PA. 

@Talker67 I think you can come back from any affair, EA or otherwise. The question is what can you put up with and forgive. How deep the EA got matters. Were they throwing around I love you and I wish I could be with you type stuff? That would be a dealbreaker for me if my wife told another man she loved him.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

If what you are asking about is polyamory, that is different but only if ALL PARTIES know about and approve of it. In that case, it would not be an affair because it wouldn’t have to be hidden. If you are hiding something from your spouse, for instance text messages that you would not be comfortable sharing with them, then you are undermining the basic foundation of trust in your marriage. There are different types of infidelity. You could also go buy a new motorcycle thinking that it will make you happy and thus improve your outlook on life, which might then improve your marriage. But if you didn’t TELL your wife you were spending 30k on a new motorcycle then that is also infidelity of a financial sort but with the same effect on the foundation of your marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Coloratura said:


> If what you are asking about is polyamory, that is different but only if ALL PARTIES know about and approve of it. In that case, it would not be an affair because it wouldn’t have to be hidden. If you are hiding something from your spouse, for instance text messages that you would not be comfortable sharing with them, then you are undermining the basic foundation of trust in your marriage. There are different types of infidelity. You could also go buy a new motorcycle thinking that it will make you happy and thus improve your outlook on life, which might then improve your marriage. But if you didn’t TELL your wife you were spending 30k on a new motorcycle then that is also infidelity of a financial sort but with the same effect on the foundation of your marriage.


This is a key point. If it were just talk between friends there should be no fear in showing those conversations to your spouse. Hiding pretty much anything from your spouse in a breakdown in the marriage.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> How long do you think it is just going to remain emotional? And since it is usually some kind of physical or sexual attraction that draws people together in the first place, you have to factor that in as well anytime someone says, "he's just a friend."


i could see a situation with a coworker going on for years with no physical contact.
it is almost natural, you work solving problems in teams all day long at work. then you have a problem with your marriage, or your self esteem, or whatever, and naturally you start talking about it on coffee breaks...

In some ways modern office politics almost demand you have some sort of mentor. If the mentor, and mentoree are different sexes.....is that an EA? Where do you draw the line.

I am not asking if it is right or wrong. I am wondering if we should be advising people who just discovered an EA that they should immediately divorce, or if instead there are better paths to follow in fixing the EA--I think we all can assume that if there is an EA going on, something is broken in the marriage.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This is a key point. If it were just talk between friends there should be no fear in showing those conversations to your spouse. Hiding pretty much anything from your spouse in a breakdown in the marriage.


i like that definition.
If you are hiding it, you know (possibly only subconsciously) that it is actually an EA.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Everyone is different. 

I wouldn't tolerate an EA and the marriage would probably be over for me. 

Other people tolerate EAs and also physical affairs. 

Everyone is different.


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## D0nnivain (Mar 13, 2021)

Nothing about human interactions is black & white 

I don't think EAs are that bad. They aren't good but for me they would not be automatic divorce. I would want more transparency & I would expect my spouse to pull away from the other person but I wouldn't demand a complete severence.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Talker67 said:


> I am not asking if it is right or wrong. I am wondering if we should be advising people who just discovered an EA that they should immediately divorce, or if instead there are better paths to follow in fixing the EA--I think we all can assume that if there is an EA going on, something is broken in the marriage.


Divorce is a complex issue and there are many factors that each individual will need to weigh before deciding whether divorce will be the best course of action for them or not. 

But the take away here is if any kind of EA is uncovered, the BS is going to need to take immediate definitive action whether it is divorce or something else.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> i just ocurred to me, reading the "Wife Texting Old Friend" thread about an EA: if you catch your spouse in an EA, does that mean the end to your marriage or they have to end the EA immediately?
> 
> In other words, is is techinically possible to have an EA as well as being married, and have both continue on for a significant period of time? (yes it is wrong for the marriage, but it happens so much, and is reported here so many times...is there some alternative to divorce?)
> 
> ...


It probably depends on the individuals involved and the extent of the betrayal.

Only speaking for myself, if Mrs. C got into an EA without bad mouthing me or blatantly disrespecting me or letting her affair partner in on my private details, I would be willing to continue the marriage after spanking her soundly and getting some follow up counseling.

She could also have nothing to do with the idiot ever again and he would want to make himself scarce around me as well.

A physical affair is a one shot kill for this barbarian with the caveat that I might still talk with my wife if it was determined to be extraordinary circumstances such as an unexpectedly intoxicating beverage and a subsequent momentary lapse of judgement.

There would still be some very serious repercussions and necessary changes for even a chance at reconciliation.

I know some folks who could forgive a momentary lapse but not an emotional entanglement.

Everyone has slightly different boundaries.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, an EA can be like a warning light if caught in time, and repair is possible (and this is even possible with a physical affair, as some have learned). Sometimes, the EA has gone too far to salvage a relationship - it's all in how much damage has been done, and if the person in the EA can pull out and work on the marriage (and the spouse wants that as well). Now, sometimes a suspected EA _isn't_ one, and it's just chatting innocently with someone, whether or not they're an old lover. You _can_ be platonic friends with a former lover, and both my wife and I have such friends. Context is needed then, usually by actually reading the exchanges.

You also ask: "*I guess another way of thinking about it, Can you love more than one person at a time? Can you seek support from someone outside of your marriage?"*

Yes, you can love more than one person at a time; that's polyamory. *BUT*, it's only okay if the spouse _knows and approves_, otherwise it is EA and may be cheating. And yes, you can get support from outside the marriage, and many people go to long-time friends, family, or therapists. However, if the person isn't one of those, or there is an inappropriate emotional bond forming, then it's usually a serious problem.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Personal said:


> Well it's not like an actual (physical) affair though. I mean in this era when so many people want to identify as victims, I can see why people will cry "emotional affair". *Yet really it's pretty much just a euphamism for someone having a friend or friends (that the victim may not like).*
> 
> That said I guess some people place a lot of stock in what people may or may not think or feel, so given that I guess they worry about illusory things like that.
> *
> As for myself I care about what people actually do, rather than what they think*. Since until actual actions occur. What someone thinks is moot.


I pretty much totally disagree.
people in emotional affairs aren’t “friends”. They’re romantic partners that haven’t consummated the relationship YET.
And people act on what they think about, it’s just a matter of time and opportunity.

An emotional affair gives emotions to the AP and ruins the emotions for the spouse.
It might as well be a physical affair as well, because the result is the same: a loss of feeling for their spouse.

JMO.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Evinrude58 said:


> An emotional affair gives emotions to the AP and* ruins the emotions for the spouse.*
> It might as well be a physical affair as well, because the result is the same: *a loss of feeling for their spouse.*


that is an assumption, not necessarily a fact.

what if a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife for lack of meaningful sex over the last 3 years.
his EA "partner" helps him figure his wife out, why she is witholding sex, what he can do to spark love making at home.....

that would be a case where the EA partner is actually HELPING the marriage, and encouraging feeling for the spouse!

Why would she do that? maybe she is just a friend. maybe she gets a vicarious thrill from suggesting sexual things he could do to his wife, and eagerly wait to hear what happened last night. Maybe she is biding her time, and waiting for him to divorce his sexless marriage, and she wants to keep him on the hook emotionally AND figure out if he is marriage material after the divorce?

who knows the reason. you can not just assume the EA subtracts from something the marriage partner would have gotten


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

What you describe is a friend and not an emotional affair. It’s a friendship that is inappropriate and possibly on its way to an EA, because it’s foolish to discuss marital problems with an opposite sex “friend”, but as described, not an EA.
Again, JMO


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> that is an assumption, not necessarily a fact.
> 
> what if a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife for lack of meaningful sex over the last 3 years.
> his EA "partner" helps him figure his wife out, why she is witholding sex, what he can do to spark love making at home.....
> ...


If a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife due to lack of sex or for whatever reason - maybe she didn’t load the dishwasher the right way - that is what a marriage counselor is for. Or even impartial individual counselors so that the guy and his wife can try to find some ways to improve themselves. In addition, if the guy is talking to this “friend” about his sex life, you can almost bet that he would paint himself in a good light and his wife as a sexless unfeeling cold person who no longer loves him, even if that is completely untrue. This guy is not going to be honest about his shortcomings with his special friend. This friend only sees one side of the story, thus any marital advice the friend gives the guy is not based on complete information and should probably not be followed.

Maybe the guy in question is a narcissist who does not believe he has any issues of his own to address. Maybe this guy has been cruel to his wife for years and that is why she doesn’t want to have sex with him. Maybe she senses he is no longer her partner in life and can feel a shift in the way he treats her, and thus is simply trying to protect her own heart.

Ask me how I know.

As someone who has heard all of this exact BS - (Here is a direct quote from my STBX: “She did you a FAVOR by being in an affair with me. She was just trying to help me understand why you are so frigid”) - from a man who promised to love me and only me until death, perhaps I am too biased to be responding to this discussion.


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## jk1223 (11 mo ago)

I think it's an interesting discussion. I think emotional affairs are definitely harder to quantify than physical ones.  The red line for what turns a friend into an EA partner can vary from couple to couple. I do think you can love more than one person at a time but, coming from experience, you cannot give yourself to both of them and remain sane and happy. We are complex creatures and I do think it is unfair to a degree to expect one person to meet all our needs. That's where friends come in. Everyone gets outdone with their spouse and needs to vent to someone other than them from time to time. Maybe you are in different field of work and it's difficult for your spouse to understand the highs of lows of it. The people you work with do. I guess it would be smarter for these people to be of a gender that you are not attracted to but that is not always feasible.

I guess the crossover would be when you rely on the other person more than your significant other to meet your emotional needs. Speaking as someone who has danced all over this line, crossed it, then danced on it some more because of a myriad of circumstances and choices, and tried to come back, EAs can be much harder to get past (and forgive yourself for) than PAs. EAs are usually born of a connection you do not have with the other person and it is hard to give that up. They are a great way to hide from the problems in your marriage. Other than possibly serving as a wakeup call, I don't see how they are helpful. Not to be crass, but you can replace the physical component with the right size batteries, it is exceedingly difficult to walk away from someone you feel you have a soul connection to. It is beyond complicated and heartbreaking for everyone involved. Whether complete severing of that relationship is required or not is going to vary although conventional wisdom says cut and run. EAs that continue will almost always go physical. Trust me on that one.

I used to believe that any kind of affair would be an "all or nothing" proposition for me. I did not think I was capable of it myself. I always thought that I would leave my husband in the dirt without question if he had one. I was wrong on all accounts. If you have been married or together for any length of time, there is so much more that factors in. Affairs of any kind rarely happen in a vacuum. I kind of equate it to saying "my kids will never..." and then they never like they have never nevered before. Saying you would definitely do/not do XYZ in your marriage, well that's just about like daring the universe to try you.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i could see a situation with a coworker going on for years with no physical contact.
> it is almost natural, you work solving problems in teams all day long at work. then you have a problem with your marriage, or your self esteem, or whatever, and naturally you start talking about it on coffee breaks...
> 
> In some ways modern office politics almost demand you have some sort of mentor. If the mentor, and mentoree are different sexes.....is that an EA? Where do you draw the line.
> ...


I have been in team work situations for almost 25 years and have never “naturally” discussed problems with my marriage with any co-workers over a coffee break. Because they are your co-workers, that is the actual boundary you should not cross. The line is - if you are paid to be there to work and so is the other person, you should not be talking with them about your intimate personal life other than perhaps “Hey my kid won the tournament” or “So we got a new dog.” At least, not if you are a true professional person. Do you go to your boss every time you have a bad day and talk about your sex life? If so, that is a very casual workplace.

I have never been at work and said to a co-worker, “Hey, did you get that email I sent about the project due next week? Also, by the way, my husband hasn’t had sex with me in 3 years. Do you have any advice about that?”

I am not saying divorce is always the default answer, but if you call your spouse out on their EA and they do not take steps to change their dynamic with that person, then they are clearly not respecting your marriage or your boundaries.


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## Coloratura (Sep 28, 2021)

jk1223 said:


> I think it's an interesting discussion. I think emotional affairs are definitely harder to quantify than physical ones. The red line for what turns a friend into an EA partner can vary from couple to couple. I do think you can love more than one person at a time but, coming from experience, you cannot give yourself to both of them and remain sane and happy. We are complex creatures and I do think it is unfair to a degree to expect one person to meet all our needs. That's where friends come in. Everyone gets outdone with their spouse and needs to vent to someone other than them from time to time. Maybe you are in different field of work and it's difficult for your spouse to understand the highs of lows of it. The people you work with do. I guess it would be smarter for these people to be of a gender that you are not attracted to but that is not always feasible.
> 
> I guess the crossover would be when you rely on the other person more than your significant other to meet your emotional needs. Speaking as someone who has danced all over this line, crossed it, then danced on it some more because of a myriad of circumstances and choices, and tried to come back, EAs can be much harder to get past (and forgive yourself for) than PAs. EAs are usually born of a connection you do not have with the other person and it is hard to give that up. They are a great way to hide from the problems in your marriage. Other than possibly serving as a wakeup call, I don't see how they are helpful. Not to be crass, but you can replace the physical component with the right size batteries, it is exceedingly difficult to walk away from someone you feel you have a soul connection to. It is beyond complicated and heartbreaking for everyone involved. Whether complete severing of that relationship is required or not is going to vary although conventional wisdom says cut and run. EAs that continue will almost always go physical. Trust me on that one.
> 
> I used to believe that any kind of affair would be an "all or nothing" proposition for me. I did not think I was capable of it myself. I always thought that I would leave my husband in the dirt without question if he had one. I was wrong on all accounts. If you have been married or together for any length of time, there is so much more that factors in. Affairs of any kind rarely happen in a vacuum. I kind of equate it to saying "my kids will never..." and then they never like they have never nevered before. Saying you would definitely do/not do XYZ in your marriage, well that's just about like daring the universe to try you.


I get what you are saying about how the people who work with you are the only ones who really can understand what you go through on a daily basis. But I wholly disagree with the “affairs rarely happen in a vacuum” statement. To me, that is just an excuse for the person who had the affair to not feel as bad about what they did. I have been unhappy in my marriage for many years but never crossed the line into an affair, EA or PA, with anyone because I respected my husband too much for that. I would never have allowed myself to go there with anyone. And even though now I know he has betrayed me for years, I still will not see anyone else until the divorce is final because I respect the institution of marriage.


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## hairyhead (Oct 30, 2015)

An Emotional Affair is in the mind. It involves an expected emotional attachment, anticipated excitement and a, future, mutual gratification. It's mostly based on the future.

A Physical Affair involves some of the above but not all. The "offended" party is left interpretating how much of the heart is involved.

Then you have the issue of protected or unprotected copulation.

Therein lies the problem.

Is separation of the heart different from participation in PIV and does internal ejaculation make it worse.

What can you live with or forgive?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

....


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

EAs at a minimum expose a marriage to a higher risk of infidelity than most people would knowingly accept or be comfortable with.

Human beings are wired to bond emotionally and physically with other human beings. Therefore secret or private and/or flirty relationships are very high risk to escalate to adultery. And experience shows it goes from "I don't find them attractive at all in that way" to a physical relationship where they believe (likely falsely) that they are in love.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

In some cases an EA can be even harder to break than a PA. 
My boundary is not to get close to someone of the opposite sex physically or emotionally. Discussing personal things like marriage problems with another guy(or girl come to that) seems really disrespectful. Surely that's what things like MC and marriage courses are for? 
If an EA is discovered, then for me if the marriage was to continue the EA would have to stop completely and work would need to be done on trying to rebuild the trust. Probably MC as well. 

Also understanding how important wise boundaries are with the opposite sex. 
If you can't say or type something in front of your spouse shows that the relationship has already gone too far.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

It kinda sounds like step one is to define terms absolutely. What does at “EA” entail? I’d need to know what it means. I tell my best friend stuff I don’t tell my husband. She does the same. My husband has a close male friend and colleague who finally came out of the closet (bless his heart, it was so hard for him). Is that an EA? Define it for me in clear terms and I can state whether it’s tolerable for me.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

hairyhead said:


> An Emotional Affair is in the mind. It involves an expected emotional attachment, anticipated excitement and a, future, mutual gratification. It's mostly based on the future.
> 
> A Physical Affair involves some of the above but not all. The "offended" party is left interpretating how much of the heart is involved.
> 
> ...


i wonder if the amount of "emotional attachment" in an EA is the same, or different depending on if you are male or female? 
I bet the guys are less emotionally involved....


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It kinda sounds like step one is to define terms absolutely. What does at “EA” entail? I’d need to know what it means. I tell my best friend stuff I don’t tell my husband. She does the same. My husband has a close male friend and colleague who finally came out of the closet (bless his heart, it was so hard for him). Is that an EA? Define it for me in clear terms and I can state whether it’s tolerable for me.


isn't this a little like a supreme court justice said once trying to describe illegal pornography, "i am not sure how to define it, but i KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT"


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> that is an assumption, not necessarily a fact.
> 
> what if a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife for lack of meaningful sex over the last 3 years.
> his EA "partner" helps him figure his wife out, why she is witholding sex, what he can do to spark love making at home.....


That is what counselors are for. Married individuals should not be discussing such things like this with friends.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> isn't this a little like a supreme court justice said once trying to describe illegal pornography, "i am not sure how to define it, but i KNOW IT WHEN I SEE IT"


That’s a valid comparison. Does it make a difference if I say “For the purposes of this thread, how would you define an EA?” Or does it truly depend on the specific situation? Or on the affect it has on the marriage? Those latter two scenarios are completely valid and help me define what you all mean, BTW. I’m trying to understand what the parameters are.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> then you have a problem with your marriage, or your self esteem, or whatever, and naturally you start talking about it on coffee breaks...



I disagree, naturally one should NOT begin discussing such problems like this with a person outside of their partner. If they can't work it out with their partner, that's what counseling is for.

One should never take it to a friend, a coworker etc.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

As to your question, no it isn't an all or nothing event, life is rarely that black and white.

For many, quite a few actually, an EA is as bad or worse as a PA. I can't say if that's true for you or others on here as we all get to speak for ourselves.

As for me, they're equally bad, that's just how I see it and that's the way it is for me.

Both are a breach, a breaking of trust.

I'm also quite liberal with my definition of an EA as to me, ANY communication or contact with the opposite sex that needs to be hidden or kept from their partner means they're having an EA, end of story to me.

Any and all contact from either partner with a person outside of their marriage/relationship should not need to be hidden or kept from their partner.

If either is partner it talking or texting or emailing or communicating via any other kind of app or meeting up to talk without their partner knowing, it's wrong and that constitutes an EA.

Again, to me, an EA and a PA are equally as bad, both contain the word AFFAIR.

Here is another way to think of it. There are many different kinds of abuse but all kinds of abuse are still ABUSE and abuse is wrong, bad etc. The same holds true, for me, in terms of affairs, they're all bad, whether they're emotional or physical, they're still affairs and bad just like all forms of abuse are still abuse and bad and wrong.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> I disagree, naturally one should NOT begin discussing such problems like this with a person outside of their partner. If they can't work it out with their partner, that's what counseling is for.
> 
> One should never take it to a friend, a coworker etc.


you keep saying "should". like this is a moral issue

that is not the point. People come on every day and tell us about their partner being caught in an EA. *its already happened,* those horses are out of the barn.

Putin_ should not have invaded the Ukraine._ but he did, so what do we do about it now????

i am trying to get some consensous about what we should be telling the betrayed spouse what to do about the EA.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> i am trying to get some consensous about what we should be telling the betrayed spouse what to do about the EA.


My best friend, whom I love unconditionally even though I do not always love her actions, had an emotional affair. She was texting/sexting with a man at her work. 

They stayed together because they are Catholic, but really because her husband didn’t think he could find a new wife (he’d been through some health stuff, I was pretty disappointed in her behavior, it took us a while to get ok again). He never misses an opportunity to beat her over the head with it. The emotional abuse that had always been there is much, much worse now. His family treats her like garbage. 

It wasn’t a friendship that was a little too close. She was sexting that guy. It was way over the line and they should have divorced.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> you keep saying "should". like this is a moral issue
> 
> that is not the point. People come on every day and tell us about their partner being caught in an EA. *its already happened,* those horses are out of the barn.
> 
> ...



I was talking about YOUR quote and your quote did not mention something AFTER the fact, it mentioned a hypothetical.

Again, here is YOUR quote my response was made for.



Talker67 said:


> i could see a situation with a coworker going on for years with no physical contact.
> it is almost natural, you work solving problems in teams all day long at work. then you have a problem with your marriage, or your self esteem, or whatever, and naturally you start talking about it on coffee breaks...
> 
> In some ways modern office politics almost demand you have some sort of mentor. If the mentor, and mentoree are different sexes.....is that an EA? Where do you draw the line.



You said you could see... not that you did see, as in the past, but in the future.

You also said that you think it's natural for a person to starting talking about a marriage problem to a coworker and I disagree with that.

Partners who love, respect, admire and cherish their partner do not just naturally begin talking about their marriage issues with a coworker, even with one they've worked with for years and years. Partners with self-respect and morals do not begin blabbing about their marriage issues to someone outside of their marriage.

Sadly, many people do this, but just because they do that doesn't make it right.

I'm a really emotional lady and my first husband wasn't emotional at all but even with me being a talker, having many friends, many good girlfriends, I never blabbed about marriage issues to them and I didn't want to hear about their troubles either. It told them to talk to their husband about it, not me or with a counselor.

It's disrespectful to talk about issues with one's partners with people outside of their marriage.

We are supposed to stand up for and back up and defend our partners. Yeah, I get it, not all do, many cheat etc. but that's not good, it's not right just as it's not good or right to discuss one's marriage problems with a coworker.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> My best friend, whom I love unconditionally even though I do not always love her actions, had an emotional affair. She was texting/sexting with a man at her work.
> 
> They stayed together because they are Catholic, but really because her husband didn’t think he could find a new wife (he’d been through some health stuff, I was pretty disappointed in her behavior, it took us a while to get ok again). He never misses an opportunity to beat her over the head with it. The emotional abuse that had always been there is much, much worse now. His family treats her like garbage.
> 
> It wasn’t a friendship that was a little too close. She was sexting that guy. It was way over the line and they should have divorced.


I see sexting as the crossing over between an EA and a PA.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> I see sexting as the crossing over between an EA and a PA.


It’s definitely a step past an inappropriately close friendship that isn’t physical. I was really upset with her. She knows better than to do something like that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> i wonder if the amount of "emotional attachment" in an EA is the same, or different depending on if you are male or female?
> I bet the guys are less emotionally involved....


And if the men DO get emotionally involved, is it harder for them to give up, because it's more powerful for them?


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> And if the men DO get emotionally involved, is it harder for them to give up, because it's more powerful for them?


I bet men DO get more long term invested in an EA, long after the female has walked away from it.....they keep hoping to start it up again.

i wonder what the stats are.....
women just wanting an EA
men wanting an EA, expecting it to become a PA, and it never happening


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Talker67 said:


> I bet men DO get more long term invested in an EA, long after the female has walked away from it.....they keep hoping to start it up again.
> 
> i wonder what the stats are.....
> women just wanting an EA
> men wanting an EA, expecting it to become a PA, and it never happening


Well, I also wonder about the fact that (many) men are not primarily emotional the way (many) women are...so when they DO have an emotional attachment, does it affect them differently than it would for women?

I believe emotional feelings have more power than physical feelings. 
I was explaining this to someone recently -- I believe physical feelings are like lighting paper on fire - it lights fast, burns huge and bright, and goes out quickly. It's very exciting!
But emotional feelings are like the coals at the bottom of an established fire - they take a long time to create, they burn with no flashy flame but are so very hot, and they last for a very very long time.

And I wonder if because of the fact that most men don't experience their world emotionally the way most women do, are they more at the mercy of them when they do get emotionally involved...??


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

Possible? Technically yes. 
Desirable? Even acceptable? Not for me.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> that is an assumption, not necessarily a fact.
> 
> what if a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife for lack of meaningful sex over the last 3 years.
> his EA "partner" helps him figure his wife out, why she is witholding sex, what he can do to spark love making at home.....
> ...


You may be right considering each individual.
The problem is that a mainly individual perspective makes abstract the core of the team thing that defines the kind of couple I would accept.


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## crashdawg (11 mo ago)

My wife and I have an incredibly close bond. She is my everything. We literally finish each others sentences. Entire conversations can happen that are half words, hand gestures and facial expressions. We've been that way since day 1. Her grandma is the one who cornered me asking if I was going to marry or not. 20+ years and still going strong.

I say all of this because the only other person I ever bonded like that with was my HS sweetheart. In all these years we ran into her and her husband only once. It became VERY clear, like wife and I feeling eyes on us from across the room clear, that some of that old bond was still in tact. We were polite. We made introductions. And my wife and I left the event at the first opportunity. It was an honest conversation. It is the only woman my wife has ever felt threatened by. Based on the small talk with the Ex it was very obvious the old bond was there. My wife was already aware but it was "awkward" when wife and Ex both finished my sentence. The Ex clearly felt the "new to her" bond between my wife and I. It's hard to explain, those who bond like that will understand. I didn't get that sense of bonding between Ex and husband.

I do believe in soul mates but due to my experience I don't believe it's only one. I believe we chose love, and if lucky are chosen by the same person to be loved in return. Ties were never established and remain severed with the Ex (with any ex but especially that one). We have friends in common, and sadly her marriage fell apart several years ago. It was long after our chance encounter but I still felt guilty. Life keeps moving. I love my wife and have no desire to open closed doors.

The one thing my wife said is that she lived in that Ex's shadow for many years. She'd heard so much from family and friends that she never realized her bond was stronger. To her the Ex was this mystery woman who might resurface. Meeting her, seeing that difference, that's when she realized she'd long out shined that shadow.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I believe a marriage can survive a physical affair or an EA. I think it all depends on the couple themselves. I believe these two types of events can be a serious wake up call for the couple to actively work on fixing the problems in their marriage. 

Kind of like when a person hits rock bottom and finally understands that they need to make changes.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Talker67 said:


> i just ocurred to me, reading the "Wife Texting Old Friend" thread about an EA: if you catch your spouse in an EA, does that mean the end to your marriage or they have to end the EA immediately?
> 
> In other words, is is techinically possible to have an EA as well as being married, and have both continue on for a significant period of time? (yes it is wrong for the marriage, but it happens so much, and is reported here so many times...is there some alternative to divorce?)
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think what a lot of people call an EA is often no more than a friendship at work or elsewhere that isn't sexual. It seems hard for men to understand that women can "just be friends" with guys all day long. It's true some of those guys may not feel the same way, but it's also true a lot of them, especially at work, may have no other interest other than work buddy, too. I've had so many men friends back when I was working all the time (old now). They certainly did not all come on to me. I wouldn't call it an emotional affair but just a friend. 

Now, if someone starts to crush on someone but nothing ever happens, it's emotional but if nothing happened, it's still not an affair. It's a crush, but it is a vulnerability one might worry some about. You have to realize that just because some woman gets a crush on a guy doesn't mean he has ANY attraction whatever to her. I mean, women tend to crush on guys who are above their attraction level, so the guy may be completely indifferent and just polite at work or casual with no other intentions. 

People make way too much of this stuff. 

Dr. Phil frequently says the number one tool of an abuser is isolation, discouraging their mate from having friendships or close family ties. So I would never tell someone to divorce because their social wife talked to someone who happened to be a man somewhere, because if she's not isolating at home, how could she not?


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly, I think what a lot of people call an EA is often no more than a friendship at work or elsewhere that isn't sexual. It seems hard for men to understand that women can "just be friends" with guys all day long. It's true some of those guys may not feel the same way, but it's also true a lot of them, especially at work, may have no other interest other than work buddy, too. I've had so many men friends back when I was working all the time (old now). They certainly did not all come on to me. I wouldn't call it an emotional affair but just a friend.


This is so true. I have friends at work, people I like and respect, and I work with mostly men so some of them are men. Only in one scenario was the guy single, but I was married the whole time so it was never going to be more than friendship. My married guy work friends gush constantly about their wives and I gush constantly about my husband, there’s no pretense of anything more than friendship and zero flirting. But we are close friends and I like and respect them. I’m also friends with a couple of my husband’s friends, we don’t talk on the phone or anything but if they’re physically around I talk to them. None of these are emotional affairs. They are friends. Mature adults can be friends without there being any sex involved. If we were all single, maybe it would be different. But it’s not. 

If my husband ever made the slightest comment that any of this bugged him, it would stop completely on whatever terms made him comfortable. He would do the same for me. I care about them as friends and would be sad to lose them but I’m not risking my bond with my husband for any of them.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is so true. I have friends at work, people I like and respect, and I work with mostly men so some of them are men. Only in one scenario was the guy single, but I was married the whole time so it was never going to be more than friendship. My married guy work friends gush constantly about their wives and I gush constantly about my husband, there’s no pretense of anything more than friendship and zero flirting. But we are close friends and I like and respect them. I’m also friends with a couple of my husband’s friends, we don’t talk on the phone or anything but if they’re physically around I talk to them. None of these are emotional affairs. They are friends. Mature adults can be friends without there being any sex involved. If we were all single, maybe it would be different. But it’s not.
> 
> If my husband ever made the slightest comment that any of this bugged him, it would stop completely on whatever terms made him comfortable. He would do the same for me. I care about them as friends and would be sad to lose them but I’m not risking my bond with my husband for any of them.


I don't think it's fair for spouses to ask spouses to give up friends, though. Not unless there is a real red flag, like the friend is an old gf or bf or known that the "friend" has some onto the person. I would hope your husband would care enough not to keep you from having casual work friends. It can affect your career.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't think it's fair for spouses to ask spouses to give up friends, though. Not unless there is a real red flag, like the friend is an old gf or bf or known that the "friend" has some onto the person. I would hope your husband would care enough not to keep you from having casual work friends. It can affect your career.


He wouldn’t ask over a casual work friend. There would have to be a HUGE red flag. Neither he nor I would ask anything unfair. That’s why I’m so confident in saying that if he asked me to give them up I would; I know he would never ask that unless there were a really good reason. 

There won’t be, anyway, my H is SUPER cute and really good at, ya know, stuff. ☺


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## sideways (Apr 12, 2016)

Personal said:


> Well it's not like an actual (physical) affair though. I mean in this era when so many people want to identify as victims, I can see why people will cry "emotional affair". Yet really it's pretty much just a euphamism for someone having a friend or friends (that the victim may not like).
> 
> That said I guess some people place a lot of stock in what people may or may not think or feel, so given that I guess they worry about illusory things like that.
> 
> As for myself I care about what people actually do, rather than what they think. Since until actual actions occur. What someone thinks is moot.


What about what they say?

You cool finding out your wife is telling some other man she loves him?


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It kinda sounds like step one is to define terms absolutely. What does at “EA” entail? I’d need to know what it means. I tell my best friend stuff I don’t tell my husband. She does the same. My husband has a close male friend and colleague who finally came out of the closet (bless his heart, it was so hard for him). Is that an EA? Define it for me in clear terms and I can state whether it’s tolerable for me.


I can´t give a definition such that would fit everyone´s agreement. Probably, not even from most.
So, just IMO...
My "frame" is by choice the mutually choosen partnership of two in love. A team with some freely and enthusiastically given exclusive privileges.
The ones they fiercly wish to share between them and with no other.
To choose the scope of this is part of what defines the "kind" of couple.
To choose with whom, the one, is what defines the couple itself.
If two do not share that "scope" they are probably not enough compatible.
If they don´t choose each other they are not a couple but as a marble of what is not.
If the choice of the scope is for someone an only individual thing, may be that someone is not prepaired to be in a relationship, not at least a one as I would choose to be and stay.

If it is of any relevance, I may share what I would choose to be such said "scope".


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> She knows better than to do something like that.


Uh... evidently not.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Only if you are a ****


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> And if the men DO get emotionally involved, is it harder for them to give up, because it's more powerful for them?


Emotionally mature men are used to being rejected, so I don't it phases them much if a momentary EA burns out.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> Emotionally mature men are used to being rejected, so I don't it phases them much if a momentary EA burns out.


But if they were emotionally mature, would they be as susceptible to an EA and a more immature man (person) might be?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> But if they were emotionally mature, would they be as susceptible to an EA and a more immature man (person) might be?


I think everybody is vulnerable to an EA and that can happen to anybody.
If you have overshared with somebody anything that really only should be shared with your spouse, you got involved with an EA.
However, I think because men get rejected more than women, they are more prone to getting over it than women.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> Uh... evidently not.


Oh she knew. She hid it from me too, she knew what I would say. She knew it was wrong and did it anyway. That makes it worse, honestly, than if she just hadn’t known any better. None of us are perfect but that was such a shock to me. I never would have believed she could lie like that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

jonty30 said:


> I think everybody is vulnerable to an EA and that can happen to anybody.
> *If you have overshared with somebody anything that really only should be shared with your spouse, you got involved with an EA.*
> However, I think because men get rejected more than women, they are more prone to getting over it than women.


I wonder about this definition though...to ME, an emotional affair is characterized by a feeling of attachment and intimate connection with someone other than your spouse. I don't believe that sharing too much necessarily constitutes an EA...maybe it's more of the reason for sharing.

To ME, anyway.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Emotional affair:
When a married person starts looking forward to talking to a person of the opposite sex more than their spouse, then becomes romantically interested in the new “friend”, and continues talking/texting constantly (and hides it from their spouse because they know it is wrong) until they are pretty much loving the attention. Then it escalates into sexual talk, then kissing and sex.

Its a pretty common progression that anyone should recognize. A loyal spouse catches it, nixes it, and avoids the “friend” before it ever gets to the point of them looking forward to conversing all the time. An entitled, disloyal, selfish spouse who doesn’t truly have strong feelings for their spouse, they enjoy and continue the EA until the opportunity arises and they start cheating.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

one thing that is def helpful to marriages nowadays: the threat of a sexual harassment claim at work. we have seen over and over how even top executives get shown the door if they are caught boffing someone at work.

i bring this up here because it has a definate damper on EA's at work. In the past workers were relatively free to flirt at work, and even pursue a reluctant co-worker....trying to get them into some sort of relationship. But today, unless the female in the equation makes it really REALLY clear that they want some sexual attention....the male had really better keep it in his pants. Company Management just does not want the potential headache of a sexual harassment lawsuit, and will dump the person who has a complaint against them.

this also gives a betrayed spouse a new arrow in their quiver: call up management in the company and report that something funny is going on between their spouse and this coworker. One of them will end up being transfered across the country, and or fired.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

Talker67 said:


> this also gives a betrayed spouse a new arrow in their quiver: call up management in the company and report that something funny is going on between their spouse and this coworker. One of them will end up being transfered across the country, and or fired.


Divorce may get better results.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TexasMom1216 said:


> If my husband ever made the slightest comment that any of this bugged him, it would stop completely on whatever terms made him comfortable. He would do the same for me. I care about them as friends and would be sad to lose them but I’m not risking my bond with my husband for any of them.


This right here is such a core theme to a successful marriage.

Mrs. C is the same and I believe the attitude of never putting your spouse second and always having them as a priority really accounts for all the trust in a marriage.

I've only ever been concerned for my wife's safety when she was out with friends or interacting with people at work and I've never worried about her faithfulness because she has never placed me as anything but first in her life.


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## Jeffsmith35 (Apr 8, 2021)

My W had a suspiciously close friendship (EA) with a married man. She went to lunch many times with him, and never told me. Some of those lunches were 2 hours long. She invited him over while I was out of the country on business to "help her hang pictures". And there were many calls and texts between them. I discovered this years later, and am still in the process of finding out the details. A betrayal of trust is very difficult to recover from. Our marriage will most likely not survive. All because she purposely concealed what she was doing while I was at work.


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Honestly, I think what a lot of people call an EA is often no more than a friendship at work or elsewhere that isn't sexual. It seems hard for men to understand that women can "just be friends" with guys all day long. It's true some of those guys may not feel the same way, but it's also true a lot of them, especially at work, may have no other interest other than work buddy, too. I've had so many men friends back when I was working all the time (old now). They certainly did not all come on to me. I wouldn't call it an emotional affair but just a friend.


I completely agree.



DownByTheRiver said:


> Now, if someone starts to crush on someone but nothing ever happens, it's emotional but if nothing happened, it's still not an affair. It's a crush, but it is a vulnerability one might worry some about. You have to realize that just because some woman gets a crush on a guy doesn't mean he has ANY attraction whatever to her. I mean, women tend to crush on guys who are above their attraction level, so the guy may be completely indifferent and just polite at work or casual with no other intentions.


I completely disagree.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I disagree with all of it. Women and men aren’t so different. I’ve had plenty of friendships with coworkers of the opposite sex. They were all totally unattractive to me. And I avoided the lookers like they had leprosy, just in case one of them decided she enjoyed my conversation and it became a temptation.

I never texted them unless I needed something for work.

I an “offended” every time I read this bs about women being better at being “friends” with men than men are with women. It’s nonsense.
I’m 49. I’ve seen it happen over and over and over with women.
That’s 99% how a healthy relationship starts for goodness sake. A lady and a man become friends through work or other regular interaction and bang, suddenly they both start noticing how nice they look in jeans or how tasty the others lips look.

oh, we are just friends……. Says a thousand million cheaters. 
good grief. Women better at being friends. Rubbish! In my best annoyed British accent.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't believe that sharing too much necessarily constitutes an EA...



I don't define it by how much one shares. I define an EA by whether what they share, say, text, email etc. to another person can be shared with their spouse.

I don't care if they share a little or a lot as long as they have no problems opening up all communication to their partner.

If they would not share what they are saying to a person if their spouse was standing there with both of them, THAT is when it becomes an EA, whether it's a few words or a long winded discussion.

When a person acts, says or does things with someone else that they wouldn't do or say if their spouse was right there, it's a problem.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> exactly the sort of thing i was wondering. finding the EA out, especially if nothing physical happened, can just be like warning light going on on your car's dashboard.


Unless the cheating spouse is telling the affair partner that they love them


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

A18S37K14H18 said:


> When a person acts, says or does things with someone else that they wouldn't do or say if their spouse was right there, it's a problem.


Whenever someone wonders if any behavior or conversation is a good idea, if they're wondering if something is "cheating" or not, this right here is an excellent metric.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> i just ocurred to me, reading the "Wife Texting Old Friend" thread about an EA: if you catch your spouse in an EA, does that mean the end to your marriage or they have to end the EA immediately?
> 
> In other words, is is techinically possible to have an EA as well as being married, and have both continue on for a significant period of time? (yes it is wrong for the marriage, but it happens so much, and is reported here so many times...is there some alternative to divorce?)
> 
> ...


I don't share.


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

D0nnivain said:


> Nothing about human interactions is black & white
> 
> I don't think EAs are that bad. They aren't good but for me they would not be automatic divorce. I would want more transparency & I would expect my spouse to pull away from the other person but I wouldn't demand a complete severence.


I took that route and now have doubts. The EA started when I was pregnant and continued for at least 8 years. I caught him by looking at the phone bill. He still denies it and basically denies the concept of an EA. I have sufficient proof and I have reviewed events and info about EAs and I have no doubts that it was an EA. I feel that I tried to work on myself- being attractive and fit, keeping up house and taking care of kids and later pursuing a career to add income, but that he never appreciated anything I did and was getting his needs met from her. I tried really hard to make it work and I feel he offered no emotional support to me… nothing for years and years. with the kids grown, I feel we have no foundation of a good marriage to look back on. When the EA goes on for years it kills the relationship. Even though it seems he reduced the length of the conversations with her as per our phone bill after confronting him, he defended his relationship with her. He was still leaning on her for emotional support and probably calling her from his work land line, texting her, and having long conversations with her. I am 90% certain that he talked I’ll of me to her when we had an argument and even when we didn’t.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

JLCP said:


> I took that route and now have doubts. The EA started when I was pregnant and continued for at least 8 years. I caught him by looking at the phone bill. He still denies it and basically denies the concept of an EA. I have sufficient proof and I have reviewed events and info about EAs and I have no doubts that it was an EA. I feel that I tried to work on myself- being attractive and fit, keeping up house and taking care of kids and later pursuing a career to add income, but that he never appreciated anything I did and was getting his needs met from her. I tried really hard to make it work and I feel he offered no emotional support to me… nothing for years and years. with the kids grown, I feel we have no foundation of a good marriage to look back on. When the EA goes on for years it kills the relationship. Even though it seems he reduced the length of the conversations with her as per our phone bill after confronting him, he defended his relationship with her. He was still leaning on her for emotional support and probably calling her from his work land line, texting her, and having long conversations with her. I am 90% certain that he talked I’ll of me to her when we had an argument and even when we didn’t.


Are you still married to him?


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Are you still married to him?


Yes. I wish I was not. I stayed for my children’s sakes and because he gaslighted me into (somewhat) believing him. She no longer works for him and the EA ended about 2018. about a year ago, I saw some behaviors from him that I saw as red flags that he is looking for another EA. No way was I going to put up with another opposite sex friendship. I did not know what an EA was, but started researching some of his behaviors and stumbled onto articles about EAs. I recently added up all the behaviors he had aligned with research articles and concluded he definitely had an EA. The clincher was an article explaining the difference between a platonic friendship at work and an EA at work. One thing that identifies it as an EA is that if a work friendship ends it has little effect on the two parties productivity. However, when an EA ends, there are usually hard feelings and one party usually ends up having attendance issues just like when a PA ends. This would explain the weird history of how this woman went from being his most valuable employee to one who had an attendance problem and my husband fired her for attendance issues. I thought it odd that he avoided talking about her until she started having attendance issues. It was like he made a point of telling me that. Odd. this went on for approx one year. He then said he thought she had a drinking problem- a story I did not believe fit with how he described her in the past. She seemed like a no-nonsense person and I did not think she would have fallen into a drinking problem. Then he sort of warns me that he is going to have to fire her. It came across to me that he was telling me to head off any info I might find out about her. Like, maybe if she contacted me? Anyway, he definitely had an EA. It might have also been a PA. 

I believe he loves me (in his own way) and is desperate to re-build our relationship. I would consider that if it were not for the fact that the EA went on for most of our marriage. It was a shell of a marriage- very superficial. I don’t see what there is to save. I have deep-seated anger about what we could have had and how lonely I was for years and years. My children made me happy, but now they are grown and we just have this superficial marriage that he is finally trying to deepen, but I think it is too little too late.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

JLCP said:


> I believe he loves me (in his own way) and is desperate to re-build our relationship. I would consider that if it were not for the fact that the EA went on for most of our marriage. It was a shell of a marriage- very superficial. I don’t see what there is to save. I have deep-seated anger about what we could have had and how lonely I was for years and years. My children made me happy, but now they are grown and we just have this superficial marriage that he is finally trying to deepen, but I think it is too little too late.


I'm so sorry. Only you can know what is really best. What I hear from your post is you've settled for being "Plan B" for a long, long time. Some things are worse than being alone. I don't think he deserves another chance, and I have a hard time believing he's trying to save your marriage, it sounds more like he's trying to save the status quo. But I'm hearing so much pain in your post I could be lashing out at him because he's hurt you so. I'd hate for you to waste even more years on someone who only cares about himself.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

JLCP said:


> Yes. I wish I was not. I stayed for my children’s sakes and because he gaslighted me into (somewhat) believing him. She no longer works for him and the EA ended about 2018. about a year ago, I saw some behaviors from him that I saw as red flags that he is looking for another EA. No way was I going to put up with another opposite sex friendship. I did not know what an EA was, but started researching some of his behaviors and stumbled onto articles about EAs. I recently added up all the behaviors he had aligned with research articles and concluded he definitely had an EA. The clincher was an article explaining the difference between a platonic friendship at work and an EA at work. One thing that identifies it as an EA is that if a work friendship ends it has little effect on the two parties productivity. However, when an EA ends, there are usually hard feelings and one party usually ends up having attendance issues just like when a PA ends. This would explain the weird history of how this woman went from being his most valuable employee to one who had an attendance problem and my husband fired her for attendance issues. I thought it odd that he avoided talking about her until she started having attendance issues. It was like he made a point of telling me that. Odd. this went on for approx one year. He then said he thought she had a drinking problem- a story I did not believe fit with how he described her in the past. She seemed like a no-nonsense person and I did not think she would have fallen into a drinking problem. Then he sort of warns me that he is going to have to fire her. It came across to me that he was telling me to head off any info I might find out about her. Like, maybe if she contacted me? Anyway, he definitely had an EA. It might have also been a PA.
> 
> I believe he loves me (in his own way) and is desperate to re-build our relationship. I would consider that if it were not for the fact that the EA went on for most of our marriage. It was a shell of a marriage- very superficial. I don’t see what there is to save. I have deep-seated anger about what we could have had and how lonely I was for years and years. My children made me happy, but now they are grown and we just have this superficial marriage that he is finally trying to deepen, but I think it is too little too late.
> [/QUOTE
> ...


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

Jeffsmith35 said:


> My W had a suspiciously close friendship (EA) with a married man. She went to lunch many times with him, and never told me. Some of those lunches were 2 hours long. She invited him over while I was out of the country on business to "help her hang pictures". And there were many calls and texts between them. I discovered this years later, and am still in the process of finding out the details. A betrayal of trust is very difficult to recover from. Our marriage will most likely not survive. All because she purposely concealed what she was doing while I was at work.


I feel the exact same way about my husband’s EA. A betrayal. focusing their efforts to deepen a relationship with someone else. Being ignored/ consideration is cast aside. Hiding the true nature of the relationship- lying about it and denying it. Gaslighting me for years is such an extreme level of btrayal. How can you trust this person to be by your side on your deathbed. Last person I would want with me is him. I would prefer a nurse hold my hand if I was dying.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TexasMom1216 said:


> It kinda sounds like step one is to define terms absolutely. What does at “EA” entail? I’d need to know what it means. I tell my best friend stuff I don’t tell my husband. She does the same. My husband has a close male friend and colleague who finally came out of the closet (bless his heart, it was so hard for him). Is that an EA? Define it for me in clear terms and I can state whether it’s tolerable for me.


Yes, but....

Your husband's friend came out of _his_ closet, not yours...

That fact makes it tolerable, I would think. 🙃


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

SunCMars said:


> Yes, but....
> 
> Your husband's friend came out of _his_ closet, not yours...
> 
> That fact makes it tolerable, I would think. 🙃


😁 That is absolutely what makes it tolerable.

You are so DEEP!!! 😍 I love the way you word things.


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Emotional affair:
> When a married person starts looking forward to talking to a person of the opposite sex more than their spouse, then becomes romantically interested in the new “friend”, and continues talking/texting constantly (and hides it from their spouse because they know it is wrong) until they are pretty much loving the attention. Then it escalates into sexual talk, then kissing and sex.
> 
> Its a pretty common progression that anyone should recognize. A loyal spouse catches it, nixes it, and avoids the “friend” before it ever gets to the point of them looking forward to conversing all the time. An entitled, disloyal, selfish spouse who doesn’t truly have strong feelings for their spouse, they enjoy and continue the EA until the opportunity arises and they start cheating.


The most important word of your post is “entitled”. This morally bankrupt concept is what all cheaters have as they believe they are special and their desires are more important than anyone else. More important than their SO, more important than their kids, more important than the work they do, more important than breaking extended family and friendship bonds.


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

Coloratura said:


> If a guy is thinking of divorcing his wife due to lack of sex or for whatever reason - maybe she didn’t load the dishwasher the right way - that is what a marriage counselor is for. Or even impartial individual counselors so that the guy and his wife can try to find some ways to improve themselves. In addition, if the guy is talking to this “friend” about his sex life, you can almost bet that he would paint himself in a good light and his wife as a sexless unfeeling cold person who no longer loves him, even if that is completely untrue. This guy is not going to be honest about his shortcomings with his special friend. This friend only sees one side of the story, thus any marital advice the friend gives the guy is not based on complete information and should probably not be followed.
> 
> Maybe the guy in question is a narcissist who does not believe he has any issues of his own to address. Maybe this guy has been cruel to his wife for years and that is why she doesn’t want to have sex with him. Maybe she senses he is no longer her partner in life and can feel a shift in the way he treats her, and thus is simply trying to protect her own heart.
> 
> ...


We have much in common.


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I'm so sorry. Only you can know what is really best. What I hear from your post is you've settled for being "Plan B" for a long, long time. Some things are worse than being alone. I don't think he deserves another chance, and I have a hard time believing he's trying to save your marriage, it sounds more like he's trying to save the status quo. But I'm hearing so much pain in your post I could be lashing out at him because he's hurt you so. I'd hate for you to waste even more years on someone who only cares about himself.


Thank you for your kind words.


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

A18S37K14H18-
“You stayed for the children... and now they're grown.

So why do you now stay when it's no longer for the children?

If you were staying for the children, you had a good decade or more (based upon your post) to work on and make an exit plan so when your children left the nest, you could have taken flight right behind them out of that nest too.

Based on you still being in the marriage, me thinks you didn't just stay for the children, but for some other reason or reasons.”

I just realized what an EA was about a year ago. Prior to that, I was unhappy but bought into his gaslighting about “nothing happened” because “there was no sex”.

Unfortunately, I am still staying for my child. my adult child moved back home during COVID and COVID put a big damper on her career path. Her plan to get into a top med school was crushed by her clinical job for needy being postponed due to COVID for 1.5 years. It is a government sponsored job and she took her name out of the pool because she was tired of waiting. She is now studying for MCAT and will have to leave behind her previous goal as it is unattainable without the charitable clinical job she would have had. She worked very hard ( graduated 4.0, research jobs all 4 years, nursing home volunteer, dance team, etc) and her goal is not attainable now. She has started the application process and will have to re-adjust her goal to mid- tier med school. Taking the MCAT test and the application cycle means she will not be accepted and start until fall 2023. It may be hard for some to understand as many work hard and they don’t get what they deserve. In this instance, she got about 2 hours of sleep most weeknights from the time she was in high school all through college because of a demanding schedule.

I am afraid if I file for divorce, everything will blow up at a very bad time and change the trajectory of her life. My parents got divorced when I was in college and my dad refused to help me with tuition. It took me a long time to work and finish college while paying my own tuition. It is very common for people to become bitter, vengeful, and shortsighted during divorce. I put up with this for a long time… just a little bit longer Is OK if that’s what it takes to get my child on the right path. I wish she had chosen a career path that did not take so long.

And you are right that I am putting up a not very good effort at reconciliation. In another post, someone told me you have to be willing to lose it to save it. That is now my mantra. I am throwing stuff at him to make him understand how I feel. If he accepts responsibility and shows remorse I will consider reconciliation. In the meantime, I am planning out all the details that need to be addressed in a divorce. There is a good chance he will be nasty in divorce and I have no living family to help me, so I need to be prepared. My end date for attempts to fix this is October 2023. I wish it were sooner.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I don’t understand. Are you a he or a she? Is your spouse a he or a she?


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## JLCP (Aug 18, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t understand. Are you a he or a she? Is your spouse a he or a she?


i Was talking about my husband having an EA. I stayed for the kids and unfortunately that is being dragged out time wise because my daughter is going to med school and I do not want her father to hide money during divorce while we are trying to get her started in med school.


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