# for better or worse... until death do we part



## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Twelve months ago my wife of 12 years informed me that while she was employed as a flight attendant, she would have "relations" with pilots. With her job, she would fly to Hong Kong, and stay three nights at the crew hotel. During these layovers she would have sex with pilots that were also staying at the hotel. She confessed that over a two year period, she had "relations" with 7 different men, dozens of times. It has been a year now since I was told the news. I went through many stages, rage, hate, hurt, humiliation. She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is. I have almost forgiven her as Christ instructed us to forgive, but the memories still linger, the pain is still present. I have read many threads here, and none of them refer to the vows we all took. "For better or worse... until death do we part". I did not vow to stay together as long as she did nothing that hurt me, but it is very very difficult.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

1). Clarify. She was married to you at this time?
2). She had 7 men? 7 men at once? Dozens of men 7 at a time?
Retreading 7 boyfriends besides you?
If I am reading this right you are far more tolerant than me. I would be out at one. I am a Christian but once I am betrayed my trust is zero. I can forgive but a marriage with no trust will inevitably crash.

I will share a lot of things. My woman ain't one of them.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Sorry I have never posted before... 
yes were were married at the time, years 7-9 with two children.
7 different men, only one at a time. she had two "favorites" one man for 7 months, the other man for 2 years. Yes the men overlapped. These were sexual relationships, not emotional affairs.


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## hotsthrnmess (Dec 5, 2012)

When she says that she hopes that you will love 'who she truly is,' what does she mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## life.is.pain (Aug 28, 2012)

God does not want for people to divorce but if adultery has been committed (which in her case she did cheat and admitted it to you) then you have a right to divorce her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Isn't adultery one of the biblical outs? I could forgive the adultery as in I will no longer hate after a time but I would be long gone.

Serial cheater. I won't stand for it once. 

Did she quit her job? I rather doubt the long term viability. Seen too many threads that read like. She cheated on me once. Then stopped. The banged some other dude(s). Now I am 45 and my dating value is much lower.

How old are you two?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So what else has she done besides just up and tell you all this?? Has she gone to counseling? Been STD tested? Proven she's stopped? Been severely apologetic? Become completely transparent to you?

Please read the newbie link in my signature. This is serious stuff to get over. I know.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm a catholic and I'm sorry but there is no way I can be that forgiving. 7 men in in two years and had sex with them more times than she can count? I'd be gone so fast that all she would see is a blur. This is not a good person nor wife material. Did she give you a reason for why she did it?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

catholicman said:


> Twelve months ago my wife of 12 years informed me that while she was employed as a flight attendant, she would have "relations" with pilots. With her job, she would fly to Hong Kong, and stay three nights at the crew hotel. During these layovers she would have sex with pilots that were also staying at the hotel. She confessed that over a two year period, she had "relations" with 7 different men, dozens of times. It has been a year now since I was told the news. I went through many stages, rage, hate, hurt, humiliation. She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is. I have almost forgiven her as Christ instructed us to forgive, but the memories still linger, the pain is still present. I have read many threads here, and none of them refer to the vows we all took. "For better or worse... until death do we part". I did not vow to stay together as long as she did nothing that hurt me, but it is very very difficult.


Here are a couple of random thoughts that might help you sort this out.

1. "Love her for *who she is*?" What does that mean? Love an adulterer? Does she intend for you to love her "as is" or is she truly repentant and does she vow to change her ways?

2. Forgiving doesn't mean condoning. Forgiving doesn't mean that there are no consequences. You can forgive a criminal, but there still is a penalty that must be paid. You know this.

3. She broke her vows to you. You are not required to stay with an adulterer. Or an abuser. What I'm trying to tell you is that not *all *marriages are forever. It's okay to walk away from this as she broke her vows to you first. Speak to a religious counselor, someone you trust. They will tell you.

4. As to your wedding vows themselves, did you both not vow to "forsake all others"? Did she not break that vow? More than once? You have very right to feel betrayed. You were. You have every right to feel hurt. She hurt you. 

5. And in your heart of heart, do you really believe she had a true conversion?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

If I am correct this happened 3-5 years ago?

Married twelve years, affair during years 7,8 and 9.

This is bad, but there are cases here that are worse, even much worse where the marriage has worked out.

So she has had a religous conversion and is coming clean? That's powerful stuff. How is she as a wife and mom? 
Still working as a flight attendant? How has your sex life been then and now?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Yet another long distance relationship gone bad.

Steps to Recover from an affair/infidelity in marriage


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

DNA test the kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

I understand this is common in flight-crew lifestyles.

One reason I'm concerned that my son want's to be a commercial airline pilot. Not a healthy environment, IMO.

Sorry you're here, CatholicMan


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

So in January 2011 she told you she was cheating on you in 2007, 2008, and 2009? Just because she was bored in Hong Kong, having sex with pilots was kind of a recreational activity, sort of like playing tennis? She had two favorites she liked to play with, but she played with seven guys altogether?

No emotion, just sex? No "I love yous"?

Did they communicate with each other or see each other when they were not in Hong Kong? My guess is that these guys would seek it out at home as well.

Did she say what she was thinking of while she was doing it? How did she rationalize it? Did she try to justify it based on anything you did or weren't doing to/for her?

Did she deny you sex during that period of time?

Did she do stuff with them that she didn't do with you?

How many other people know?

Why did it stop in 2009?

What are your triggers?


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

First, I do not believe you have gotten all the truth as bad as it is. People tend to limit the facts to put them in the best light possible even if it is terrible, Trickle Truth.

Need her to write down her time line so you can see it and ask the questions on it, if you really want to know.

Second, so she has had a conversion, what caused this at this time? Is it because she is hiding something else, or was someone else going to reveal it to you and she wanted to do damage control as well as she could?

Third, what stopped her from continuing these activites over the past 3 years? Since she just revealed it to you something must have happened?

I believe you have just seen the Tip of the Iceberg.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Also an ongoing Sexual Affair is also Emotional.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

catholicman said:


> Twelve months ago my wife of 12 years informed me that while she was employed as a flight attendant, she would have "relations" with pilots. With her job, she would fly to Hong Kong, and stay three nights at the crew hotel. During these layovers she would have sex with pilots that were also staying at the hotel. She confessed that over a two year period, she had "relations" with 7 different men, dozens of times. It has been a year now since I was told the news. I went through many stages, rage, hate, hurt, humiliation. She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is. I have almost forgiven her as Christ instructed us to forgive, but the memories still linger, the pain is still present. I have read many threads here, and none of them refer to the vows we all took. "For better or worse... until death do we part". I did not vow to stay together as long as she did nothing that hurt me, but it is very very difficult.


Before I can give any particularly concrete advice, and I assume you attend the Latin rite, on which part of the Catholic spectrum do you fall? Liberal _Novus Ordo_, Conservative _Novus Ordo_, FSSP, SSPX, independent, or _sedevacantist_?

In so far as the dogma of the Church is concerned, the Council of Trent infallibly pronounced that the Church did not error in permitting the separation of dwelling and marital bed for a definite or even indefinite period. Moreover, the discipline of the Church permits, without prejudice or pain of sin, for the innocent party of a marriage wounded by infidelity to enact the complete and immediate cessation of common household and conjugal affection if:

1.) The adultery be proven.
2.) The non-offending spouse is not an accomplice (voluntary cuckoldry)
3.) The non-offending spouse did not give prior consent (open marriage)
4.) The infidelity has not be matched by non-offending spouse

It goes without being said that, as a Catholic, should you divorce at any future time you would not be free to take another wife or engage in sexual congress while your wife remains alive.

Best of luck.

-JM


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Also an ongoing Sexual Affair is also Emotional.


Sure is, otherwise the one would not have lasted 2 years.


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## Media_girl24 (Aug 19, 2012)

When my husband of 13 years starting having affairs, the biggest hurtle I personally faced was struggling with the vows I took. Although I wasn't especially happy within the marriage, I took the vows seriously and had never considered divorce.

I researched and spoke to my pastor, and kept getting the same answer: if your spouse commits adultery, that is a biblically stated reason to divorce in the eyes of God. 

Of course, what you do is up to you. I realize that the Catholic Church has some expectations that are hard for most to think about. The idea that you can never marry again if you divorce is really quite unfair in my opinion; but I'm not a fan of any organized religion.

If your wife is truly sorry, I can certainly understand why you would be compelled to stay; but I hope you insist that she looks within herself to determine why she engaged in such behavior. It is a personality trait that needs to be explored so that she doesn't hurt you again.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Media_girl24 said:


> Of course, what you do is up to you. I realize that the Catholic Church has some expectations that are hard for most to think about. The idea that you can never marry again if you divorce is really quite unfair in my opinion; but I'm not a fan of any organized religion.


It's not a matter of fairness. When a Catholic marries, the commitment is that two are made indissolubly one. Circumstances, such as adultery or heresy, permit the legal dissolution of the common life, especially where the continuance is a danger to the non-offending spouse's temperance or charity, or the proper formation of children in the faith. It's difficult, but choices have consequences.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

catholicman said:


> Twelve months ago my wife of 12 years informed me that while she was employed as a flight attendant, she would have "relations" with pilots. With her job, she would fly to Hong Kong, and stay three nights at the crew hotel. During these layovers she would have sex with pilots that were also staying at the hotel. She confessed that over a two year period, she had "relations" with 7 different men, dozens of times. It has been a year now since I was told the news. I went through many stages, rage, hate, hurt, humiliation. *She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is. * I have almost forgiven her as Christ instructed us to forgive, but the memories still linger, the pain is still present. I have read many threads here, and none of them refer to the vows we all took. "For better or worse... until death do we part". I did not vow to stay together as long as she did nothing that hurt me, but it is very very difficult.


This sound like a $lut becoming a born again virgin. I find it hard to believe, sorry


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Is she remorseful?

Love her for who she is... That's an odd phrase to use in this scenario.

You cannot forgive unless she is remorseful.

Another story of a person misusing religion for their own seflish means????


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

what really annoys me is her manipulation of _your _religious views. sounds like she _knew _you were/are a staunch believer, so she went out for some fun _knowing _you'd most likely forgive her "sins". in other words, she had "nothing to lose."

how callous of a person to play on anothers' beliefs like that..... _how ghastly is that?!_


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## Media_girl24 (Aug 19, 2012)

JMGrey said:


> It's not a matter of fairness. When a Catholic marries, the commitment is that two are made indissolubly one. Circumstances, such as adultery or heresy, permit the legal dissolution of the common life, especially where the continuance is a danger to the non-offending spouse's temperance or charity, or the proper formation of children in the faith. It's difficult, but choices have consequences.


I did state that this was my opinion. It seems unfair to me; and that's my opinion. We all have a right to one.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

That one of her coworkers, or a BW, threatened to reveal her playtime activities to you never crssed your mind?

It's almost a given that her activities were well known by dozens.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

What did she say herself to start towards that path.
What did she say herself to keep doing it for 2-3 years.
What happened to her for stopping it?

Did she confess, hoped forgiveness and that's all? Is it all forgiven and forgotten? 
How is she helping you throught this? Can you express your pain freely? Is she defensive? Is she empathetic to your pain? Do you have the sense she's for the long time of healing you need? Any visible effort to compensate somehow?


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Read Cletus, Hicks and Walkon 's above statements you are being played because of your beliefs.

You need to deal with this and get the facts, all the facts, only then can you make a decsion using your moral values.

Do not let your moral values be used as a prison that does not allow you to find out what did occur.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

catholicman said:


> Twelve months ago my wife of 12 years informed me that while she was employed as a flight attendant, she would have "relations" with pilots. With her job, she would fly to Hong Kong, and stay three nights at the crew hotel. During these layovers she would have sex with pilots that were also staying at the hotel. She confessed that over a two year period, she had "relations" with 7 different men, dozens of times. It has been a year now since I was told the news. I went through many stages, rage, hate, hurt, humiliation. She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is. I have almost forgiven her as Christ instructed us to forgive, but the memories still linger, the pain is still present. I have read many threads here, and none of them refer to the vows we all took. "For better or worse... until death do we part". I did not vow to stay together as long as she did nothing that hurt me, but it is very very difficult.


Where you married in the Catholic Church? If you were not married in the Church, who performed your marriage? 

Have you spoken to a priest about all of this?

Is your wife Catholic?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Two of my sisters and a brothers went through "divorce" as a civil matter and "annulment" as a catholic matter. All are remarried in the church. One of the sisters is a volunteer minister at a state prison.

Don't let the issue of divorce in the catholic church cloud your judgement.
I'm not saying reconcilliation and forgiveness should be off the table. But they are not the only options for devout catholics.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There are different issues here in so far as if you do not want to stay in this marriage. There is the civil matter of divorce and the Catholic Church (CC) matter of religious marriage, annulment and dispensation. 

As a Catholic you are free to divorce your wife. Divorce is a civil matter. You are free to divorce your wife to protect you and your children from her, financially, and otherwise. The Catholic Church does not care if you divorce her since it’s a civil matter.

However, the CC would consider it adultery if you remarry without first getting an annulment or dispensation.

If you were not married in the CC and/or your wife is not Catholic then you can petition the Church for a dispensation. The CC does not recognize a marriage that is not performed by the CC or that is between a Catholic and a non-Catholic. But they do require a dispensation, if you ever want to re-marry in the CC. Dispensations are pretty easy to get from my understanding.

The CC does give annulments under some circumstances for people who were married in the CC. The annulment basically means that the marriage was not a valid marriage.

“1 On what grounds does the Church declare nullity for some failed marriages?

In technical language, the most common reasons are insufficiency or inadequacy of judgment (also known as lack of due discretion, due to some factor such as young age, pressure to marry in haste, etc.), psychological incapacity, and absence of a proper intention to have children, be faithful, or remain together until death.”

Catholic Update October©2002-10 Questions About Annulment by Father Joseph M. Champlin

Your wife’s adultery was so wanton that I think it could be very easily argued that she married you with no intent to be faithful to you. I would not be surprised if she has cheated on you in situations other than with the pilots. It just all seemed way too easy for her.

You really do need to discuss this with your Parish.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is no requirement in the Catholic Church for you to stay in an abusive marriage... adulty is abuse.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Your wife’s adultery was so wanton that I think it could be very easily argued that she married you with no intent to be faithful to you.


Eh, if the marriage was properly celebrated, then that's doubtful. Understanding that within the Latin rite, while marriage normatively requires the blessing of a priest, it is understood that the actual conferral of the sacrament of marriage comes from the mutual, expressed consent of the spouses to one another. Within the realm of sacramental theology, wherein a sacrament has the proper minister (spouses for sacrament, priest for sacramental), form (sacramental prayer) and matter (those physical actions which express outwardly the volition to contract marriage), the presumption is always that the sacrament is valid unless it may be proved conclusively otherwise. It would probably be next to impossible to do that, unless she happened to write in a diary that she was going into the marriage with the intent to forego fidelity.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

Don't let your wife use your faith as a way to manipulate you for her selfish/whorish actions.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JMGrey said:


> Eh, if the marriage was properly celebrated, then that's doubtful. Understanding that within the Latin rite, while marriage normatively requires the blessing of a priest, it is understood that the actual conferral of the sacrament of marriage comes from the mutual, expressed consent of the spouses to one another. Within the realm of sacramental theology, wherein a sacrament has the proper minister (spouses for sacrament, priest for sacramental), form (sacramental prayer) and matter (those physical actions which express outwardly the volition to contract marriage), the presumption is always that the sacrament is valid unless it may be proved conclusively otherwise. It would probably be next to impossible to do that, unless she happened to write in a diary that she was going into the marriage with the intent to forego fidelity.


I know people who were successful in getting annulments with this very argument. That is why I suggested that the OP discuss it with his parish priest.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Thank you for all your input. I just read more that 30 of your replies. I have to reflect. You all gave me so much to think about. I will do my best to answer your questions asking for details soon. In the meantime, I left out something important... she is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. She told me that a "weird uncle" taught her how to "please herself" while she was 5-7 years old. I believe in free will, but there is strong evidence that the abuse rendered her psychologically "different" from most other people.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

hotsthrnmess said:


> When she says that she hopes that you will love 'who she truly is,' what does she mean?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it means that she hopes I can and will love her even though she is a grave sinner.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

The only thing for you would be could you ever trust her after all this. Does she still work the same job? I hope not.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Isn't adultery one of the biblical outs? I could forgive the adultery as in I will no longer hate after a time but I would be long gone.
> 
> Serial cheater. I won't stand for it once.
> 
> ...


Yes she quit her job just before Christmas 2009. She tells me now that she did not want to spend her Holy Christmas as a shore for the pilots.

She is 42 and and a little chubby by very attractive.
I am 57 and a fading hunk.


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I know people who were successful in getting annulments with this very argument. That is why I suggested that the OP discuss it with his parish priest.


Oh, I'm sure there were and are. The average diocesan annulment tribunal has become so liberal that they'd probably grant an annulment if you forgot to buy your spouse a present for your anniversary. In fact, I (and many in the more conservative parts of the Church) doubt the validity of many if not most of them. My point was, as far as actually theology is concerned, that argument doesn't hold much weight.

- JM


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> So what else has she done besides just up and tell you all this?? Has she gone to counseling? Been STD tested? Proven she's stopped? Been severely apologetic? Become completely transparent to you?
> 
> Please read the newbie link in my signature. This is serious stuff to get over. I know.


counseling? yes
tested? yes
she rarely strays from home, never overnight.
apologetic? at first no, but now yes, very.
completely transparent? of course not, is anyone? even to God?


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

survivorwife said:


> Here are a couple of random thoughts that might help you sort this out.
> 
> 1. "Love her for *who she is*?" What does that mean? Love an adulterer? Does she intend for you to love her "as is" or is she truly repentant and does she vow to change her ways?
> 
> ...


1. I think to love her even though she has been a grave sinner.

2. Yes, she knows that, she knew that I might have killed her when she told me.

3. If it was just she and I, I would have been gone, but we have two of the best children in the world. They deserve a loving home with both mom and dad.

I found out 13 months ago, and the sting/pain/hurt is beginning to subside.


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## teedee (Jan 4, 2013)

Only just read your post.

I could consider forgiving someone who got caught in the moment and made a mad selfish decision based on lust. Ir would be hard but I could think about it. 

I do not think I could forgive serial planned cheating for up to 2 years.

Religion or not.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

catholicman said:


> 1. I think to love her even though she has been a grave sinner.
> 
> 2. Yes, she knows that, she knew that I might have killed her when she told me.
> 
> ...


How old are the kids? Given how much sex she had for those three years, is it (gulp) possible one of your kids isn't yours?

It's a horrible thing to think about, but if the ages line up, I think you should.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

catholicman said:


> Yes she quit her job just before Christmas 2009. She tells me now that she did not want to spend her Holy Christmas as a shore for the pilots.
> 
> She is 42 and and a little chubby by very attractive.
> I am 57 and a fading hunk.


I'm 61. Afew years ago I noticed I was not as strong as I used to be. I actually have a barbell set I got for Christmas in the seventh grade. I have used it off and on over the years. I pulled that set out and have been working out with it ever since. One of the best things I have ever done. 

Physically you can double your strenth in no time. It burns massive calories, no more love handles though. I don't know the chemistry of it but those pains that come with age have diminished to nearly nothing. A work out is like getting high. I know, I went to college in the seventies.

Wife loves muscles.

Mentally, agin I don't know the chemistry but after a work out life just seems a lot better. Less worries, problems appear more in perspective, life is good. As opposed to some exercises, your brain goes in to neutral concerning mind games. You can't thinkk of something else when you are counting, gasping, balancing and making sure you don't drop something and tear everything all to hell.

Like I said, if you think its worthwhile to try, many here and many more that have moved on, have gone through much worse and have been successful in recovering their lives and families. It all depends on the two people invloved and their motivation/outlook on life.

In other words you can fade, we all do, but you can still be a hunk if you want it.

God bless your family and prayers for you

Chap


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Isn't adultery one of the biblical outs?


*The Three Biblical "Outs" Are: *

*Abandonment*
*Infidelity(Physical or Emotional)*
*Abuse of Spouse or Child(Physical or Emotional)*


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

catholicman said:


> counseling? yes
> tested? yes
> she rarely strays from home, never overnight.
> apologetic? at first no, but now yes, very.
> completely transparent? of course not, is anyone? even to God?


Transparent here means giving you access to all means of communication ie. cell phone, texts, emails etc. and all passwords. Of course this goes both ways, except for your acct here.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

Are you sure that she didnt had any A before this?

Did she done things she didnt done with you.

Two yrs, seven men. two long term Affairs.

She was a free ***** for piolots for two yrs, I can forgive her but can never be with such a callous person who did it without a wink of an eye.

Get a paternity test done. Dont say you are sure the children are yours 12 months ago you also believed that you married an angel, but you didnt realized your angel turned to a free *****. so do the paternity test.

Catholics can get a D for adultery. Dont try to find excuses for staying with her as you took vows. Vows are only valid when both follow it, it will become void if anyone use it to wipe their sh!t with it.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

She dint told you because she had an epiphany but may be there was someone who knew about her transgression was about to out her.

Is she trying to blame shift. Did she own up her sh1t?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

teedee said:


> Only just read your post.
> 
> I could consider forgiving someone who got caught in the moment and made a mad selfish decision based on lust. Ir would be hard but I could think about it.
> 
> ...


Did you see this at the top of the page?

*Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.*


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

chapparal said:


> If I am correct this happened 3-5 years ago?
> 
> Married twelve years, affair during years 7,8 and 9.
> 
> ...


conversion and clean? yes!

She has always been a wonderful mom, and is turning into a very good wife.

No she quick (her choice completely) December 2009.

Our sex life years 1-3 pretty hot.
years 4-7 just OK.
while she was flying and cheating, pretty good.
the last year, sometimes hot and angry, then I stopped having sex with her.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> So in January 2011 she told you she was cheating on you in 2007, 2008, and 2009? Just because she was bored in Hong Kong, having sex with pilots was kind of a recreational activity, sort of like playing tennis? She had two favorites she liked to play with, but she played with seven guys altogether?
> 
> No emotion, just sex? No "I love yous"?
> 
> ...


All the boys (10 to 15 years younger than her) are stationed in Hong Kong we live in California. So the fun was limited to HK.

Yes she reports no emotions, just recreational sex.

I asked her about what she was thinking while "doing it". she reports concentrating on her having an orgasm.

Nope no justification, beyond just wanting to have sex.

We would have sex everytime she would return from her trips.

Infrequently, but yes. I am too humiliated to offer details.

How many other people know, besides priests/counselors... at least 12, and then anyone they talked to.


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## Summer4744 (Oct 15, 2012)

Catholicman. God does not want his most faithful followers to be duped and used by those who don't follow him. There would be no reason at all to feel guilty with breaking your wedding vows.

The kind of piety you show is admirable. Why waste it on someone who will not appreciate the gift you gave her? Somewhere out there there is a Christian god fearing woman out there that would love to meet someone like you. Why deny that woman the chance to marry you while reward your wife for turning her back on god.

Here is an important question to consider. If she had to do it all over again would she still have cheated on you? It will be easy for her to say she regrets it and would give the world to take it back in hindsight, but how genuine would that statement be? What if those affairs were the most exciting experiences of her life and deep down she cherishes these experiences just like she cherishes her experiences with you?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

I don't know how you're accepting this but you are. Please understand that there are many women who have been cheated on or been in abusive relationships who, would like nothing more than to have a committed and honest relationship with a committed and honest man. You're denying these women and others a chance to have a wonderful relationship with you. 

And your stance also sends a message to your wife and other men and women who know about your situation that you are completely and utterly under her control. Men will use this opportunity to throw out feelers at your wife. You will not appear attractive in the eyes of women including your wife if you remain passive.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

You need to get the book Surviving An Affair by Dr Harley today.

You need to tell the OMWs, WW parents and her siblings. If WW still works for the airline she must leave that job.

You and WW need to get tedted for STD's.

You need to get DNA paternity tests done.

How's that for a start.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

In my marriage, I took those vows ever-seriously to show the utmost depth of my love for her. 

It is, regretably, too bad that my STBXW's connotation of those very same vows were far different than those of my own!


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Also an ongoing Sexual Affair is also Emotional.


Yes, that's what I think too. That is how I am made.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

chapparal said:


> Transparent here means giving you access to all means of communication ie. cell phone, texts, emails etc. and all passwords. Of course this goes both ways, except for your acct here.


Yes I have them all, but everyone is free to sneak a new email account.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think you are confused by your own religion.

What is forgiveness? It is to stop holding on to hate.

It is not about being trod upon.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> That one of her coworkers, or a BW, threatened to reveal her playtime activities to you never crssed your mind?
> 
> It's almost a given that her activities were well known by dozens.


I considered this, but her playmates, are stationed in Hong Kong 8,000 miles away. They are all younger than her, and are probably active with other women too. I don't think they men she was with, think about me and our family at all!


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

AlphaHalf said:


> Don't let your wife use your faith as a way to manipulate you for her selfish/whorish actions.


But what "if" her selfish/whorish actions are in the past?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Look you can do whatever you want to do.

But you cannot move on until you understand the truth. And the truth includes the part about the anger and resentment and desire to hurt you that she felt when engaging in this. 

You know that it's not just about orgasms. If she cared about orgasms she would have been masturbating. She either needed these men's approval or she has resentment for you.. And until she is more revealing, not saying "Get over it.. God wants you to forgive", you will have trouble movingon.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Hicks said:


> Look you can do whatever you want to do.
> 
> But you cannot move on until you understand the truth. And the truth includes the part about the anger and resentment and desire to hurt you that she felt when engaging in this.
> 
> You know that it's not just about orgasms. If she cared about orgasms she would have been masturbating. She either needed these men's approval or she has resentment for you.. And until she is more revealing, not saying "Get over it.. God wants you to forgive", you will have trouble movingon.


You are right! there is more to it. She loved the attention she received from these hot young pilots. She was just entering her 40's and was very good at looking much sexier/hotter than her younger flight attendant friends. Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

catholicman said:


> But what "if" her selfish/whorish actions are in the past?


I know a couple of people who were able to really forgive their spouse for a period of infidelity much like what your wife had. They have gone on to repair their marriages and live a good life together.

One of these couples is now 18 years past the period of serial infidelities. They have had a very good, happy marriage now for years. 

My point is that you have to make up your mind if you are able to forgive her and love her enough to accept that you married a very broken woman. She has to be willing to do things that affair proof your marriage.

The book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley is a very good suggestion for you and her to read. AFter that the books linked to in my signature block for building a passionate marriage are the follow-on books. One of the major themes of these books is how to rebuild your marriage in a way to affair proof it.

You two are already doing some of what is needed. She quit her job. She is a home body mostly now. And you would never leave her alone in a place like a bar now.

You are right that childhood sexual abuse breaks people. The victims often do not view sex in the same way as others. Many survivors of childhood abuse go through a period of wanton promiscuity. 

Since your wife is now talking about all of this and is doing things like quiting her job, being a home body... it seems that she has reached a stage where she is getting a handle on her problems.

If you choose to divorce her, that's your choice and a reasonable one.

If you choose to stay with her and love her, that's your choice and also a reasonable one.

But if you stay with her you need to find a way to re-connect, restart your sex life, and be truely in your marriage. Staying in a sexless marriage will only turn you into a bitter old man and drive her to seek more sex outside the marriage.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

In my opinion it boils down to 2 things.

1) can you get past what she has done?

if not, divorce and move on. if yes, move on to #2

2) do you think she could possibly cheat again?

if not, work on your marriage. if yes, you will end up living a life of constant monitoring and suspicion - your sanity will dictate whether you stick it out or let her go.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

I have a couple of points to make if you don't mind.

1. She made this statement to you: "Even today she admits that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen.... For your wife to make such a statement to you after everything she has put you through shows that she is only as faithful as her opportunities. It also shows that she has no empathy for your pain. A statement like this shows down deeps she has very little respect for you and enjoys twisting the knife in you claiming it is only a joke. 

2. Depending on the time frame you should get your children tested for paternity.

3. The fact that she would engage in countless sexual encounters and be used as a mere sex toy by these pilots who themselves had numerous other sexual encounters with others is very very sad. She is a mother who had no problem putting her health at risk for numerous STD's and fly home afterwards to have sex with you her husband and put your at great risk for STD's as well. What does that say about her attitude toward you? She tells you she never thought of you while she was screwing around but only concerned with an orgasm. What is wrong with this picture?

I would really think you would have to be somewhat masochistic to remain in such a relationship. You deserve so much better my friend.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

bryanp said:


> I have a couple of points to make if you don't mind.
> 
> 1. She made this statement to you: "Even today she admits that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen.... For your wife to make such a statement to you after everything she has put you through shows that she is only as faithful as her opportunities. It also shows that she has no empathy for your pain. A statement like this shows down deeps she has very little respect for you and enjoys twisting the knife in you claiming it is only a joke.
> 
> ...


 macoshistic?


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

catholicman said:


> Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...


You are crazy if you stay in a marriage where you know you are not safe. No religious principle that I am aware of requires this.


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> In my opinion it boils down to 2 things.
> 
> 1) can you get past what she has done?
> 
> ...


1) I think so..

2) Of course she could, but not likely if I am vigilant. Semper Fi


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

catholicman said:


> But what "if" her selfish/whorish actions are in the past?


The damage is already done. You will never be able to say you have a faithful wife again (but she can say that about you as a husband).

It sounds like the guilt finally caught up with her so she went all “born again” so she can use your religious beliefs to manipulate you and keep you from leaving her. She got away with adultery for years and expects you to just suck it up. She doesn’t want to suffer any negative consequences for her actions.

Regardless of whether she becomes the perfect wife for now on or not, can you live with yourself for letting her do this to you? How much of your self-respect are you willing to sacrifice to stay with a woman that had no problem sleeping with other men while married to you?

While the pain and anger fade, you will never see her in the same way again and never forget what she has done. That’s something you have to live with.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

_ Originally Posted by catholicman View Post
Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen..._

So do you really want to have to keep her under wraps till the day she dies??

No freaking way would I be with my husband if I wasn't able to trust him again. If I felt like I had to keep him from cheating on me all the time, we would NOT be together. He doesn't want to cheat again, for HIMSELF. Not just for me. He actively lets me know this. He actively works on our relationship with me. He actively works on bettering himself. And he does all this because he wants to. HE wants to. If I had to force him to do all this, what kind of marriage would that be??


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ArmyofJuan said:


> Regardless of whether she becomes the perfect wife for now on or not, can you live with yourself for letting her do this to you? How much of your self-respect are you willing to sacrifice to stay with a woman that had no problem sleeping with other men while married to you?


It isn't a matter of lack of self respect. It's a matter of being able to make the choice, because it's what you want to do. BS's who reconcile for the kids, or because they think there's no one else for them, or because they don't want to be alone, or for whatever other reasons that are desperate, yes. But a few of us have let the WS go (or kicked them out) and discovered that the WS has changed, and the person we married is still there, and decided that we actually can be in love, truly in love, with that person, and that we want to be. Of course, that assumes the WS has done a whole heck of a lot of hard work. Willingly. Voluntarily.


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## cabin fever (Feb 9, 2012)

catholicman said:


> even today she admitts that if i left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...


this speaks volumes!


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

catholicman said:


> Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...


Red Flag to me. She is changed, yet she says something could still happen if she is put in the right environment?


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## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> It isn't a matter of lack of self respect.


Of course it is. He really needs to have respect for himself because his wife certainly doesn't respect him. By staying with her she actually loses more respect for him, and that is fact! You can't respect someone who would allow you to do this to them without consequence...that is where she's at. 




Hope1964 said:


> It's a matter of being able to make the choice, because it's what you want to do. BS's who reconcile for the kids, or because they think there's no one else for them, or because they don't want to be alone, or for whatever other reasons that are desperate, yes. But a few of us have let the WS go (or kicked them out) and discovered that the WS has changed, and the person we married is still there, and decided that we actually can be in love, truly in love, with that person, and that we want to be. Of course, that assumes the WS has done a whole heck of a lot of hard work. Willingly. Voluntarily.


3 years, at least 7 different men, more times than she can count? Come on!...She does NOT respect her husband.

At some point you have to realize a serial cheater of this extent is so completely selfish that they can never be trusted. By leaving her he would gain self respect and send a message that he cannot live with someone who would do that to him.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

tulsy said:


> Of course it is. He really needs to have respect for himself because his wife certainly doesn't respect him. By staying with her she actually loses more respect for him, and that is fact! You can't respect someone who would allow you to do this to them without consequence...that is where she's at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point was that, if he truly examines his situation, he will discover that he does not want to be with her. She very well may have stopped cheating now, and be a different person. The chances are very slim, but he is the only one who can figure that out. And I think that if he's honest with himself, he'll figure it out. Honesty, not self respect, at least not only self respect.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

catholicman said:


> You are right! there is more to it. She loved the attention she received from these hot young pilots. She was just entering her 40's and was very good at looking much sexier/hotter than her younger flight attendant friends. *Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...*


Isn't this your answer right there? If she can't tell you she would turn them down, then I don't see how you can be confident that her behavior is in the past.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Isn't this your answer right there? If she can't tell you she would turn them down, then I don't see how you can be confident that her behavior is in the past.


:iagree:You got your answer, sorry


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

As I read through this thread and the OP's responses, something doesn't sound right here. There has to be more to this story than we are getting. Either his cheater isn't telling him everything or he isn't sharing everything.

Catholicman: what is the purpose of your posting here? Are you just trying to tell us your horrific story or are you seeking advice. You seem to know exactly what you want to do, so I don't understand the purpose of your posting. How can we help you?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

catholicman said:


> macoshistic?


Perhaps not masochistic, but perhaps a strain of martyrdom. Common in the Catholic dogma.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

catholicman said:


> 2) Of course she could, but not likely if I am vigilant. Semper Fi


Is this the life you want to live? A wife that you have to be constantly vigilant over, to keep under lock and key? What does this say about her conversion?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

JCD said:


> Perhaps not masochistic, but perhaps a strain of martyrdom. Common in the Catholic dogma.


Yes it is went to catholic grade school high school:iagree:


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> As I read through this thread and the OP's responses, something doesn't sound right here. There has to be more to this story than we are getting. Either his cheater isn't telling him everything or he isn't sharing everything.
> 
> Catholicman: what is the purpose of your posting here? Are you just trying to tell us your horrific story or are you seeking advice. You seem to know exactly what you want to do, so I don't understand the purpose of your posting. How can we help you?


Middleman, of course I am not sharing everything, how can I? My wife and I have been through 14 years together. 

What I want to do is turn back the hands of time, and make all this mute. It is very apparent that I cannot get what I want.

So how can you help me? 

Tell me how to forgive. 

Nobody here seems to have experience with forgiveness. They think when someone forgives a cheater they show weakness and lack of self-respect (even stupidity).

Do any of the posters here know how to forgive?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

catholicman said:


> Middleman, of course I am not sharing everything, how can I? My wife and I have been through 14 years together.
> 
> What I want to do is turn back the hands of time, and make all this mute. It is very apparent that I cannot get what I want.
> 
> ...


Being able to forgive is not weakness; it’s a strength that few have.
Give me a few minutes and then check your PMs.


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## theroad (Feb 20, 2012)

SaltInWound said:


> Red Flag to me. She is changed, yet she says something could still happen if she is put in the right environment?


This is not a red flag it is an honest statement.

As a member of AA knows that they can no longer hang out in bars. The temptation is too strong.

The addiction from an affair is the same. This is why it is best to move far away from the OM after an affair.

This is why over night jobs need to be avoided before there is an affair and eliminated after an affair.

This is why there is to be no girls night outs.

No co ed sports teams, no going to gyms alone, no training for running with members of the opposite sex.

Why recreational activites must be done together.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

What is your definition of forgiveness?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

catholicman said:


> Do any of the posters here know how to forgive?


My advice for learning how to forgive is that you get the Marriage Builder Material and you and your wife work through them. 

You could also call Dr. Harley and make an appointment with him. I think he would be a big help to you.

The material is.... "Surviving an Affair", "His Needs, Her Needs", and "Love Busters". They are all written by Dr. Harley.

There are more books in the series that could help you.

There is also a marriage weekend that might help.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

theroad said:


> This is not a red flag it is an honest statement.
> 
> As a member of AA knows that they can no longer hang out in bars. The temptation is too strong.
> 
> ...


You are right. It' a statement that she knows her own weaknesses. To affair proof a marriage this is the first step.. to know the weaknesses and then to protect from them.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Okay...has she earned her forgiveness? Now, grace is NEVER earned. There is almost nothing she can do to make up for her multiple infidelities.

But she can at least make an attempt. So the question which comes to mind is are you having a hard time forgiveing because you can't get over this, or has she been...diffident in her attempts to be worthy of grace.

I am refering specfically to her assertion: 'love me for whom I am' as well as her assertion that being alone in a crew lounge would have a high possibility for her to back slide.

Now, I don't have the context. Maybe she was trying to be funny with the second comment. And the first sounds a bit like moral blackmail in some regards. "If you are any kind of real (man/Christian/Ethical Carbon Based Oxygen Breather), you'll accept me for what I am (with the added implication of 'without leaving this hang over my head')

This might be a mental hesitation you are having. And honestly, her comments don't exactly settle the mind even if it was 'a joke'.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

catholicman said:


> You are right! there is more to it. She loved the attention she received from these hot young pilots. She was just entering her 40's and was very good at looking much sexier/hotter than her younger flight attendant friends. Even today she admitts that if I left her alone in the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what would happen...


Then how does it have anything to do with her religion? This is what you have to work with? Unless I am misunderstanding this, she is saying she can only be trusted when you are watching her.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

> she knew that *I might have killed her *when she told me.


i highly doubt it. just from your replies, i don't get the sense that you're the "scorned-turned-violent husband" type. she knows you better than i, and she pounced on the chance to get her jollies at your expense.


what you are asking of us is NOT forgiveness of your wife's actions. you're asking us if it's ok to "rugsweep" the affair, in the guise of forgiveness. you're not gonna get _that _here. 

your wife explains away her behavior in a "matter of fact" way- a very nonchalant way..... no feeling..... no emotion. basically just telling you she was wh0ring around, and now wants to come back to being the good catholic wife you _thought _you had.


INSANE!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

theroad said:


> This is not a red flag it is an honest statement.
> 
> As a member of AA knows that they can no longer hang out in bars. The temptation is too strong.
> 
> ...


If what you say is relevant, she is a sex addict and needs treatment.

OP, you are trickling the story out here and expecting us to give you help. How is that possible. For example you have given almost no details. It took five pages for yu to tell us she can't trust herself around men.

What kind of conversion is that? Yes we can all be tempted, but the way you describe it, she is not all in.

Has she begged for you not to leave her? Does she break down crying and slinging snot? At his point I can not tell if she gives a damn. 

More details about why you stopped having sex with her. Most people trying to recover go at it more than ever. This establishes the couple trying to retake what is theirs and rebonding. The chemical/hormone exchanged during sex is crucial. Being with out you is what caused this in the first place. The last thing you want is an unfulfilled wife runnng around with her horns out.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

This is an annonymous forum. You can unload on us and we will try to help. You need to let loose. I feel you are afraid to give us the information we need to consider. 

Can you forgive her, of course you can. Is it easy, no and it takes time. Other issues come first however , especially what she needs to provide you and that depends on what she has done and is doing.

You seem to be suggesting if you were to give her a one way ticket to Hong Kong she would be gone. I doubt if anything is further from the truth.

You also haven't given us any info as to what you are doing except cutting her off, which is the wrong thing to do.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You first have to define forgiveness.

The fear I have is that you are confUsing forgiveness with pretending it never happened.

You should be focused on what exactly you need to have a functioning marriage with your wife given the reality of her past behavior and who she is.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Has she done ANYTHING to help you move past this?

You haven't answered this question...so the hang up might not be YOUR mind, it might be that you don't feel she's really sorry.


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## NewM (Apr 11, 2012)

So she told you that if you leave her alone in the bar she will cheat on you again,and probably anywhere else she gets opportunity and you are ok with that.

Good luck with not being cheated on again:smthumbup:


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## catholicman (Jan 3, 2013)

JCD said:


> Has she done ANYTHING to help you move past this?
> 
> You haven't answered this question...so the hang up might not be YOUR mind, it might be that you don't feel she's really sorry.


I do not think she is really sorry. "It was not really her fault".

On D-Day and on the subsequent days that I was interogating and investigating her EAs, she was not embarrassed or moritfied, sometimes she even smiled when giving the details I asked for.

There have been some late nights when she has been down on her knees sobbing, begging for forgiveness, but in general I feel she believes that she is not to blame. She still does not own responsibility for her actions. She sites her attachment disorders (not diagnosed but quite evident) and her hypersexuality caused by childhood sexual abuse.

In her mind she is the "victim" here. At one point she told me that all those men took advantage of her, molested her. And that I did not protect her (from herself).


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## committedwife (Dec 12, 2011)

catholicman said:


> I do not think she is really sorry. "It was not really her fault".


 Huh. I wonder whose fault it is? Did she tell you? Did she not enter into these relations of her own free will? 




catholicman said:


> She sites her attachment disorders (not diagnosed but quite evident) and her hypersexuality caused by childhood sexual abuse


Baloney. She might get that to fly by you, but she would never get it past me. I could tell you some things that happened to me as a child that would flip your lid. I recently told my adult brothers about just a few things that happened to me, and they collapsed, weeping. 

But I _never went out on my husband_. Sorry. That excuse doesn't work.



catholicman said:


> In her mind she is the "victim" here.


Well, then, my goodness, man - get on it! If your wife thinks she was a 'victim' then evidently she feels a 'crime' was committed. The two of you need to go to the police and file a report, post-haste. 

Somehow I think she's going to refuse to do that... 

Please tell me that she is no longer flying. Her flying days need to be OVER. Nights spent apart from you need to be OVER. 

That is IF you want to salvage this mess. I wouldn't hold it against you if you decide to end the marriage. Her own conscience didn't persuade her to suddenly confide in you; I suspect a pilot's wife found out and was ready to bust her. 

And I second the OP who suggested that you DNA test your kids to confirm that they are actually yours. That may be another reason she's suddenly so faux remorseful.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

So if she's the perpetual victim of men and she's not to blame... how this add up with the following..


> She told me about it because she had gone through a "true conversion" and hoped that I would/could love her for who she truly is.


Why any victim would need a conversion and a confession (to start the redemption)?
How did she manage to be faithfull for years before? After all she was a victim back then too?
Do she realize she's an abuser, your abuser?
Why doesn't she need to make amends to you?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

It is hard to believe she was this way there but no where else including home.

I would get DNA tests on kids.

Check every phone/text/emai/social website etc. to see what I could find up until now.

She would not be smiling if you were conveying to her that her marriage is hanging by a thread.


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

chapparal said:


> *It is hard to believe she was this way there but no where else including home.*
> 
> *I would get DNA tests on kids.*
> 
> ...




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

but he is not going to do this. Even after one yr he is still in the fog and hoping for a magic.

She is not truly remorseful enough for a true meaningful R. That is the real reason for her still acting like a victim. Her not owning her sh1t (she is not truly remorseful for tis to happen) is the reason for OPs increasing pain and resenment daily little by little.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Catholicman,

I am sorry you are here. I am a late entrant to this thread.

You are asking how to forgive.
You know your wife CHEATED on you for 3 long years, with multiple men.

1. I dont know how she came to confess that she had PA for a long time.

2. I was in a similar situation some months ago. All I knew (she told) was her EA. I had no evidence. I went into hurt, humiliation, begging and anger. It was only when I went into that anger mode, things started better for the marriage. But, when I went into anger, I lost my peace of mind. Anger hurts you more than others.
You say you are in anger and hurt. Quite natural.

3. How to forgive? Forgiveness is to be earned is it? How will you love someone? It just happens, yeah? In your case, you say she does not seem to be remorseful. That is a danger for your marriage. She cant say "she is not at fault". She chose consciously to have sex with different men and she still says she is attractive.

In summary, there is a risk that she will find ways to go astray, unless she earns forgiveness. For this, she should first, as a God fearing human being, seek it. 

Next, why are you in a hurry to forgive her? Do you think "your forgiving" is going to change things for you and for her? Nope.

Take time. Infidelity takes long to stomach. Forgiveness starts after this stomaching.

I have kids. I dont want them to suffer. So do you.

Stay strong for yourself. She did not respect you, and the marriage, and kids. She is not worth it now. If she earns it, maybe in future. Until then, she should work on this.


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## Numbersixxx (Oct 10, 2012)

catholicman said:


> I do not think she is really sorry. "It was not really her fault".
> 
> On D-Day and on the subsequent days that I was interogating and investigating her EAs, she was not embarrassed or moritfied, sometimes she even smiled when giving the details I asked for.
> 
> ...


She cannot even be consistent . Looks like she isn't trying to earn your forgiveness, she just expects it automatically. This indicates her lack of respect and low opinion of you. You are there just for her convenience, nothing more. Whatever your needs and desires are, they are of secondary importance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

catholicman said:


> I do not think she is really sorry. "It was not really her fault".........she even smiled when giving the details I asked for..........but in general I feel she believes that she is not to blame....... In her mind she is the "victim" here. At one point she told me that all those men took advantage of her, molested her. And that I did not protect her (from herself).


I think that this sums it up. You request to the forum was advice on how to turn back the hands of time and learn to forgive. Here is where we are different from God, we can forgive the act of betrayal, but we can't forget. You appear to be perfectly willing to forgive, but her lack sincerity is quite telling. 

Her speak of past events may have been contributing factors in why she would consider cheating, but does not excuse her behavior. This is a person that knows right from wrong and chose for her own selfish reasons to defile the marriage. 

While the old relationship is gone, that does not mean you can't have a new relationship. However, her lack of commitment makes faithfulness unlikely. She says if I am alone at the bar at the crew hotel, who knows what could happen? Well you know what could and probably would happen. She explains it away as somehow being your fault for not protecting her from herself (oh, please what a load of horseshhhhht). 

She has been punking you for years and makes you think that you deserve no better. She would run off for a little afternoon delight at the first opportunity she got, if she thought she could get away with the event. I don't see her liaisons as highly emotional to the other individual, but as a means to satisfy her desire to prove to herself that she is the hottest little thing in a jumper. 

She is a freebird and this bird you cannot change. You cannot begin to forgive, until she begins to repent. You cannot change her, that is something that she has to do herself. She is the one who has committed the problem, she has to fix it, don't accept responsibility for this problem. 

I believe you need to consider a separation to give each of you a little perspective and then consider if you want to create a new relationship. This should be for a defined time and initially involve limited contact and seeking legal advise if push comes to shove. This should then move to dating, which needs to be arranged by both people, not you pursuing her again. She needs to learn you are a person of value and you need to learn you can live without her. Lastly you need to reintroduce intimacy in various forms including sex. I wish you and your family the best.


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