# I think it's over.



## FirstNightOfBreakup (May 22, 2016)

It's 5am. I haven't slept all night. I didn't eat yesterday. I literally feel sick. My fiance and I broke up yesterday. I'm 34 years old and I've been through my share of breakups, but this one...I've never hurt this way. When it's good, it's perfect. We have this amazing chemistry and we have these ridiculous jokes that only we would understand. We have a bank account together, we share everything. Nothing is hidden. I just love what we have. I was even with him when his dad (who he was very close with) passed last year. I absolutely love his family. I've grown close with each and every one of them. My family loves him. Everything is amazing UNTIL we bump heads and he becomes my worst enemy at that moment. 

Long story short -- Yesterday, we got into an argument about my fiance undermining me right in front of my teenage son, so afterwards, I told him it bothered me. I asked him if he could please refrain from debating with me in front of my son and at least wait until afterwards to say something to me and I'd be more than willing to hear him out. He has this issue where he just gets defensive any time he feels that someone is blaming him or accusing him of doing something wrong. So the argument gets escalated and we're just going back and forth. He abruptly yelled, "Just shut up!" with an angry look on his face and I immediately said, "Don't tell me to shut up!" The fight then continued to escalate and he started walking out of the room to go into another room to calm down, but on the way out the bedroom door, he mumbles, "****ing *****". He stayed in the other room for about an hour and a half and then came back in the bedroom and sat next to me. We calmly started discussing the issue again and I told him that I would not tolerate him telling me to shut up or calling me names. I asked him for an apology. Well, I got one, but a half-assed one. He didn't look me in the eye and he said it in an annoyed tone and then continued to defend his behavior and blame everything on me, even though he was saying "I'm sorry" in the same sentence! So I called him out on it and it again got escalated. This time he went nuts. He was yelling really loud and called me every name under the sun, including *****, idiot, *****, ****, dumbass, etc. I just shut down when he does this. This has happened about 4 times in our relationship, where he went completely ape ****. I never fear he will hit me. He just has such a bad temper and he says some really really mean things once he's at a certain point of his anger. 

I'm an outspoken person. I wear my heart on my sleeve and love hard and unconditionally. I speak my mind and my emotions because I feel that I should be able to. Anytime I tell him that something is bothering me, he calls it nagging or whining and he says that I never "shut up"...but we argue back and forth so how am I the only culprit? I know I'm not being the bigger person either in these arguments, but it's not me alone. He deflects a lot. He tells me that he calls me names because I push him to do so. We haven't argued in the past 6 months and he basically left me today because of our really bad fight. 

Basically, I'm pretty sure my fiance does this because his dad used to talk to his mom that way until she divorced him. He has four brothers and I think they all kind of have an issue with accepting blame for some reason. This is the only reason I can't hate him, even though I know he is displaying harmful behavior. I know it's just how he was conditioned, but I also know the amazing heart he has and how perfect he can be for me when things are good (which is a large portion of the time). The problem is the 5-6 knock-down drag on fights we've had. 

Please help me. This is the love of my life. He's staying at his moms and will most likely call me in a day or two to talk about the fate of our relationship. I told him I won't reach out and I'll wait for him to call. It may take a few days as he holds the anger for awhile when it's a bad argument. Even if he is willing to try to make it work (which I'm not so sure he will), I would want to get into counseling with him to see if we can salvage our relationship. I don't even know if I should still try to attempt this relationship, regardless if he wants to or not. I really need advice. He basically thinks it's all my fault. He's convinced himself of that. I feel like he hates me right now.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

"I will always love you. But we cannot be together. It is just not working. Goodbye. " _(hang up)_


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Yep that chemistry is amazing. Like acid. 

Why would you marry? I don't get it.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Both of you need to learn techniques to keep your occasional conflicts from escalating to such an extreme.

Both of you.

Your relationship is perfectly salvageable, as long as both of you are willing to learn.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Both of you behaved badly. 
You cannot get an respectful apology when you demand it, he needed time to calm down but sounds like enough time wasn't given. 
If you want to continue in this relationship, you're going to have to give each other time & space. 
At the end of the day, what does it matter who's right or wrong in a silly debate. 
Sometimes I have to let go things for the sake of a peaceful marriage. 
Life's too short. Focus on being happy together. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Many times a person picks up on a tone in ones voice and that alone can set off the other person and then bickering starts and it escalates, typical actually. It would be my guess your finances either did not like being told to not address you infront of your son or he picked up on a voice tone that set him off. If he did not like being told by you that he needed to wait til you could talk privately I think he has an issue with control. If this was a voice tone issue, that might be something that you can work on but he has to work on that too, not reacting. You are right that he should not be putting you down to your son, that he needs to stop. Do not excuse his behavior by saying this was possibly his example growing up....it might be but he needs to learn that you can express yourself without all the name calling. What eitehr one of you could have done was said, "this is getting out of hand, let's talk about this when we have calmed down." Things might be amazing between you in many ways but this will kill your relationship eventually.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

FirstNightOfBreakup said:


> Everything is amazing UNTIL we bump heads and he becomes my worst enemy at that moment.... I feel like he hates me right now.


FirstNight, welcome to the TAM forum. What you are describing is called "black-white thinking." It occurs whenever we experience very intense feelings because, for self protection, our brains are hardwired to shift into "all-or-nothing" thinking mode when our feelings (e.g., anger) are intense. 

For example, when you are in a crosswalk and look up to see a truck bearing down on you, your brain suddenly becomes incapable of doing any high level reasoning. Instead, it is capable of thinking only "jump left" or "jump right." Similarly, when we are very angry with someone, we tend to start perceiving of them as "all bad" and lose touch with our good feelings toward that individual. 

In this way, intense feelings create "thought distortions" in all people, including even the adults. By the time we are in high school, we have experienced these thought distortions so many hundreds of times that we know our judgment goes out the window whenever we experience intense feelings. This is why, when we are angry, we try to keep our mouths shut until we have time to cool off. And, when we are infatuated, we try to wait a year or two before buying a ring.

I mention B-W thinking to you because some adults are so emotionally immature that they heavily rely on it -- throughout adulthood -- to avoid having to deal with strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of interpersonal relationships. They are simply too immature to be comfortable dealing with strong conflicting feelings. 

They therefore will flip between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (hating you). This flip typically can occur in less than a minute, oftentimes in only ten seconds. It will be triggered by some minor thing you say that poses a perceived threat to the person's fear of abandonment or engulfment. A few hours or days later, the person can flip back just as quickly.

Significantly, the B-W thinking and other behaviors you describe -- i.e., controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, periods of low empathy, and always being "The Victim" during disagreements -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your fiance has full-blown BPD but, rather, that he might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

Another possibility is strong traits of IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder). Significantly, BPD and IED are not considered to be diseases but, rather, simply two different patterns of behavioral traits. The primary difference between the two is that, whereas BPD rages typically are triggered only by a spouse or other loved one, IED rages usually are triggered by anyone (and, hence, is just as likely to occur outside the family, e.g., in road rages when driving). Because you mention nothing about outbursts to strangers in public, I will focus my description of behavioral symptoms on BPD.

I caution that BPD traits are not something a person "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, they are behavioral traits that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your fiance exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim" (blaming every misfortune on you), lack of impulse control, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.



> He has four brothers and I think they all kind of have an issue with accepting blame for some reason.


If your fiance really does exhibit strong and persistent BPD traits, it would not be surprising for some other siblings to do so as well. Although the cause of strong BPD traits is not yet known, the most widely accepted theory is that it seems to arise from hereditary factors and/or early childhood abuse/abandonment by a parent. 



> He basically thinks it's all my fault. He's convinced himself of that.


If he really does have strong BPD traits, he has such low self esteem that his subconscious works 24/7 protecting his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all hurtful thoughts and feelings onto you. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, he is totally unaware -- at the conscious level -- that this projection is occurring. He therefore truly believes that you are somehow responsible for these bad thoughts and feelings. And, when he is claiming the exact opposite a week later, he will believe that to be true also.



> I would want to get into counseling with him to see if we can salvage our relationship.


If your fiance exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits, a MC may be helpful. If you decide his traits are strong, however, MC likely would be a waste of time until he has had several years of individual therapy to address the underlying issues. Moreover, if he does see a psychologist for IT, you cannot rely on that therapist to tell you about BPD if it is relevant. To protect the client, therapists routinely withhold the name of the behavioral traits. For high functioning BPDers, their diagnosis typically will include only the name of co-occurring issues such as anxiety, depression, PTSD, or bipolar.

I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a look at my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to discuss them with you. 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your fiance's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you decide whether your situation is sufficiently serious to warrant spending money on professional guidance. And they may help you decide whether it would be prudent to reconcile with your fiance. Moreover, they may help you avoid running right into the arms of another man just like him. Take care, FirstNight.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He needs to visit the Doctor and get a new prescription for his Grow the f**k up tablets.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Until he both acknowledges AND apologizes for his sh*tty behavior (AND commits to correcting/changing it going forward), let the mama's boy stay at his mama's house.

If he comes back at all, and he isn't on his knees (at least figuratively), tell him to a) GTFO and b) stay gone.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Only real shot you have is for both of you to learn respectful communication toward one another. You both had ownership in this spiraling argument. You should not get married until you both can learn to communicate. Can you go to pre martial counseling? When is the wedding? Is he willing to come back at all?


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

@Uptown's post is spot on. There's a lot of my h in that, he who has BPD. But I will note that if you were having a conversation with your son, something in that conversation must have triggered your fiance. My h had/has a horrible mother, and they do a little dance of "here's a nice sweet email from Mama, so now knee jerk and call me, because if you don't, a nasty accusatory or victim-based whiney email is coming, so then he DOES call his mama." Their relationship is complicated. Part of the reason my h is with OW is to "protect" her son from him. His MLC sent him looking for a purpose in life, and he glommed on to a single-mother welfare who0re who is like his mama, and he can protect the son, in whom he sees himself. 

There may be deep-seated patterns your fiance is working from unconsciously. And it is really sad that most things, almost all things, can be going so well and yet this one thing can be so destructive that it destroys the relationship. I agree with the earlier poster who said the relationship may be salvageable, but this thing has to be corrected, and long standing issues of communication and dysfunction take a LONG time to resolve.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

It's good that you think you understand the 'whys' of his behaviour, because it helps find closure. But if HE is not willing to change his behaviour, he's still not someone you need in your life.

Sure, it's great during the good times, but the bad times, those are when someone's true character comes out. Those are the raw and honest moments. Someone who can insult you like that during the worst moments, those are from his true self, when his inhibitions are down. So at his core, he does not respect you. During the good times, he's just faking being respectful. You love the veneer of respectability he carries on the outside when he's not under stress. But below that lies a man who you barely know, who insults you on purpose to cause you emotional pain that has you crying, sick and sleepless. You don't love that man, and that's who he truly is.

It's hard to accept, but you don't love the man he really is, deep down inside. You love the potential you see in him, you love the man he could be if he really wanted to try hard enough, but he's busy showing you he is unwilling to try. Let him go, mourn the life you thought you almost had, and find a man who remains respectful even during the worst times.

Have you ever seen the movie True Lies? Schwarzenegger and Tom Arnold. It's pretty old now. Tom's character is Arnie's sidekick, and every time Arnie's about to do something ridiculous, Tom points it out and tries to convince him out of it. But if Arnie sets out to do it anyways, Tom still HAS HIS BACK. He doesn't insult him, walk off and abandon him. He gives 110% support to help Arnie succeed, even if he thinks the idea is the dumbest thing ever. That's what partnership is.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

One fight in 6 months? Great almost all the time? 

Sounds like there are problems on both sides. 

You want to argue and make your point, then call foul if he's not happy and shut the discussion down because it's "in front if your son". 

You're both in the wrong. Both of you are disrespecting the other. The tone of your voice affects all understanding. I agree with that post above on the tone thing. You could say I love you in the right tone and he'd be furious.

I suspect that his thoughts get no validation from you, hence the escalation. Both of you are escalating things. It's not just him. But in your mind, it's all his fault. 

Either go to an expert at helping you both handle your temper and see the other's perspective, or look for someone new. 
This stuff doesn't sound Right to me. Example-- you tried to force him to apologize. No feeaking way could I ever get my ex to apologize. It wouldn't happen. But if I asked for one, I sure as hell wouldn't get it.

Try to remember, sometimes it's a case of "do you want to be right, or be happy?". Took me a while to learn that. 

I think you both need help. Then again, he may be a total asshat. Your call.
Don't call him, though. Bad idea. Of he doesn't want you, let him go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Just a goofy example in my life/

My fiancée and future mother-in-law and fia's two kids spent the night at my house- I spent the night T my friend's. Came home early and myself and the oldest made pancakes. She made the pancakes (she's ten), as usual. She spoils drops of batter everywhere and I mentioned it to her. Gf says "she's a child, xxxxx". Later, when kids were outside fishing in pond, I told her I'd like to always be training them and see them improving. Gf didn't get mad, but in a reasonable tone, says" I want then to learn to be happy on the kitchen and that she was having fun (she and I always do). I got the point, and felt better about her perspective. The ex would have used a *****y tone and been angry when she said it, in a way that would make me furious.

You just have to learn how to explain differences on a loving tone. I think you will see a difference. He also needs to respect you and use the right tone-- I think he will see a diff too
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TooNice (Nov 26, 2013)

It's only one aspect of an obviously much bigger issue, but I would never tolerate being called names, especially such brutal ones. You may not fear for your safety, which is good, but that is emotional abuse and in my opinion, unacceptable. 

I don't care how angry I am, I would never use words like that for someone I claim to love.


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## FirstNightOfBreakup (May 22, 2016)

I am absolutely overwhelmed by all of the great advice. Trust me, I know I play a part in our arguments. I'm an emotional person and I know I can be overbearing at times. I don't intentionally do it. I just get passionate about my feelings and spill them out. For instance, when I was really stressed out last year and the household responsibilities were all on me, we had about 3 fights regarding this. He just wasn't helping me enough. Maybe I just approach things the wrong way, but I honestly don't think I'm that bad. I always try to speak calm and tell him how I feel without being accusatory but it seems he still takes it that way. 

He won't speak to me. I spoke with him and texted him yesterday (we were nice), but he still didn't respond to my text from yesterday. I have to leave him alone until he's ready. Who knows when that will be. He may never come back. He thinks I'm making him unhappy. I wish you guys knew the dynamics and how good I've always tried to be to him. I took good care of him and love him unconditionally. It's just sad. I wish I was stronger. Thank you, everyone, for all of the detailed feedback. Ive taken it all in.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

FirstNightOfBreakup said:


> I am absolutely overwhelmed by all of the great advice. Trust me, I know I play a part in our arguments. I'm an emotional person and I know I can be overbearing at times. I don't intentionally do it. I just get passionate about my feelings and spill them out. For instance, when I was really stressed out last year and the household responsibilities were all on me, we had about 3 fights regarding this. He just wasn't helping me enough. Maybe I just approach things the wrong way, but I honestly don't think I'm that bad. I always try to speak calm and tell him how I feel without being accusatory but it seems he still takes it that way.
> 
> He won't speak to me. I spoke with him and texted him yesterday (we were nice), but he still didn't respond to my text from yesterday. I have to leave him alone until he's ready. Who knows when that will be. He may never come back. He thinks I'm making him unhappy. I wish you guys knew the dynamics and how good I've always tried to be to him. I took good care of him and love him unconditionally. It's just sad. I wish I was stronger. Thank you, everyone, for all of the detailed feedback. Ive taken it all in.


And I'm sure from his perspective he has tried all as well. It's too bad he won't try and get some help with communication. You may just need to let him go. You can't be in a one sided relationship.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

3leafclover said:


> Don't get too sidetracked with the whys. Understanding why he undermines you in front of your son and explodes verbally and calls you names won't really change that he _does_ do those things. It won't change the effects.
> 
> Yes, he was probably conditioned to be this way, and yes, that is sad. I'd hazard a guess that most people with personality disorders or who have traits (like propensity for verbal abuse) making them totally inappropriate for marriage material were conditioned i.e broken in some way. Simply recognizing this does nothing to make them more appropriate as marriage material.
> 
> ...


Yes, who cares about the "Whys". The question is "Why associate and deal with wounded minds." OP needs to distance herself from him and protect her future. OP is NOT equipped to reprogram this man.

Love, really is blind. The bonding chemicals attach good people to mad men and vice-versa. 

As individuals, we cannot "fix anybody", nor should we try.

Our government(?).....try to fix the locals. Eliminate the precursor conditions and triggers that lead Americans down Alice's rabbit hole.
A tall order, for sure. 

To maintain a good life [and pass it on to the children], a good American will first build a strong and nurturing foundation in the home. OP's fiance has demonstrated that he is not capable of doing this.

OP's fiance is too old to act this way. He surely has his reasons from a psychological viewpoint, but running to his mother's house and not facing his bogeyman is beyond the pale.

Let the poor guy go. Live on and prosper without him, OP.



With respect to @3leafclover 's remark:

*This is so true *and can be applied to broken men and women all over the world. I see this in the Geopolitical context where terrorists are "broken"....brainwashed into doing terrible things, for spurious reasons.

There are a lot of Manchurian Candidates "Out There" !!

We cannot "fix them". We must isolate them and our dealings with them. We cannot "Nice Them" into being productive members in the collective world order. 

Our education, the family structure, family interactions, and "The Village" that we were raised in, can also reprogram people into basket cases, that years of psychotherapy can never undo.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

He needs to man up and take responsibility for his actions. A healthy relationship doesn't have time for his delicate sensibilities. If he did something wrong, he needs to be able to accept that and try to do better. Especially since it seems that you didn't beat him over the head with it, but asked in a calm and respectful manner. You didn't do anything wrong.

You're relationship doesn't sound as though it's over to me. But, he has problems. And he needs to stop being a little boy, and start controlling himself. I don't care what happened, he has no excuse for flying off the handle like that.

You should accept no excuse either, no "I just get so mad", or "I really hate it when you suggest I do things wrong". I've got news for your fiance: he does things wrong sometimes. And if he can't deal with that, then he should probably move back in with mommy.


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