# Is there hope?



## hurtnohio

I've posted in other parts of this forum, but I need the perspective of other believers. I respect everyone on this forum, but I want to discuss things with people who share the same spiritual background I do. I'm sorry if I'm going over old material again, and I'm sorry this is so long.

My wife and I are both protestant Christians. We saved ourselves for marriage, but our honeymoon was a disaster. She had been so traumatized by her parents' negative views of sex that she couldn't open up and be sexual with me. In fact, we ended up going to a sex therapist. It was almost a year into our marriage before we could actually enjoy sex, without it being painful for her. Sadly, that sort of set the precedent for the rest of our marriage. It's an exceptionally hot time for us if we have sex a couple of times every 6 weeks. As a man with what I would consider "normal" sex urges, that never seems to be enough. Sometimes I've asked God, "Why did I wait for THIS?"

For many years, we thought we couldn't have children. After 15 years, God blessed us with our son. He's been the joy of our lives.

My wife also has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. For a while, her symptoms were well controlled by taking Cymbalta. After about 3 years, the Cymbalta began losing its effectiveness and we eventually discontinued treatment. About that same time, her parents recommended she see a "naturopathic" doctor who guaranteed she could cure fibro. But she also preached at us about the evils of vaccines for our son (which I am a big believer in). I had some deep misgivings about this naturopath, and asked my wife to not make any decisions about whether we would go to her until I had prayed and felt more clear about it. I believe this was the beginning of some deep resentment. My wife felt that I wasn't taking her pain seriously enough because I wasn't enthusiastically pursuing every possible avenue for healing. This caused us a lot of heartburn. Finally, we did travel halfway across the country to see this naturopath. We ended up spending over $1500 on treatments and supplements, but there was no improvement.

Around this same time, my wife started complaining that I didn't help out enough around the house. Now I have always done about half the cooking, dishwashing and nearly all the laundry. I'm not the neatest person in the world, but I at least make sure the dishes are clean and the laundry is pressed. I try to do more, but she has forbidden me to do her laundry because I always put things in the wrong drawers and whatnot.

One night, she met me at the door and said things needed to change. She needed me to do more. When I told her I was doing the best I could, she said she didn't believe that I was or else our house would be in better shape. At one point, she even said if I didn't improve, we might as well split up.

With both of us being conservative Christians, one of the things we had always agreed on was that we would never even mention the possibility of divorce (except for infidelity or abuse). That night was possibly the lowest point of our marriage. I have never admitted this to anyone, but the thought of suicide actually entered my mind that night. It was no more than a thought, and thankfully God helped me fight my way past that thought, but I was floored.

Nevertheless, I tried. But I somehow I never could please her. I could clean the diaper pail, wash a load of laundry and premix the formula bottle for the next day. But if I forgot to wipe the tablecloth off after dinner, I would get scolded. Usually with great sarcasm.

Somewhere in all this, her uncle murdered his wife in a heinous act of domestic violence. Nearly everyone in the family had an anecdote to tell about all the red flags that had led up to this act; consequently, many family members were called to testify against him. As it turned out, he pled out at the last minute and there was no trial. During this time of turmoil, my wife and I got marginally closer, possibly because we had a common crusade to engage in. Once the uncle went to prison, it seemed to me that our unity eroded.

She started blaming me for things that to me seem silly. One night we were on a trip and as I was about to go to bed, she asked me to close the bedroom window before I went to sleep. But I got into a conversation with my dad, she ended up going to bed before me, and I figured she had done it. It ended up turning cold overnight, and our son - who was also in the room - and I caught a cold. All the next week, she was fuming at me for being so irresponsible as to make our son sick. Every time he coughed or just felt pathetic, she scolded me again for not closing that window.

As he was learning to crawl, he would frequently crawl behind my feet without me knowing it. I sometimes would back up and trip over him. No serious injuries ever occurred, but it would frequently scare him and make him cry. She would then scold me and tell me I didn't care enough about him.

We also began arguing about discipline. I'll admit that there were a couple of times that I disciplined him for issues that I took to be willful defiance, but which in reality were probably just a toddler being a toddler. I have never been abusive in my discipline, but I admit there have been times I was probably unfair. My dad was strong, silent type so I'm having to figure out how to be a Christian dad as I go along. But in my wife's mind, she sees being unfair and abusive as one and the same. Before long, she's telling family members I'm abusive.

She's accused me of being verbally abusive to her. I've never called her names, ever. I do raise my voice on occasion when we're in a heated argument and she's already raised her voice to me. On the other hand, she's called me things like, "Bi-polar, arrogant, not a real man, crazy, lazy, and hateful." I once told her something she had done hurt my feelings, and she sarcastically said "Oh, boo-hoo-hoo about your precious little feelings." One day when I wasn't quick enough to open the car door for her, she stood stamping her foot in our driveway yelling, "Has it occurred to you that I'm sick?!?!?"

She's had a hard time accepting limitations on what she can do physically as a result of her condition. She'll try to prove that she can still do things like cut the grass on a 100-degree heat index day. She'll then be practically bedridden for the next several days. So occasionally, I feel the need to firmly remind her that she needs to take it easy. She tells her family members that I'm being verbally abusive by telling her she can't do anything. Sometimes, the way I hear our conversations characterized, I almost wonder if she's talking about the same event! Where my intentions were to help her remember not to hurt herself, she tells everyone that I was out to demoralize and belittle her.

She read somewhere on the Internet that dry climates can help fibromyalgia. Now she is all excited about moving to Arizona, Utah or Idaho. The problem is, I don't have a job in Arizona, Utah or Idaho, and I'm the sole provider. Unfortunately, I'm in an industry where it's not easy to drop everything and change employers. I want to go where God wants us to go, but I just don't feel that quitting my job and moving to Idaho is the best move for us right now. She accuses me of putting money before her health.

Recently, some things she has said made me think she was again contemplating divorce. In desperation, I checked her e-mail since I knew if she was planning that, she would probably e-mail her family about it. What I found was a bunch of e-mails between her and her twin sister's ex-husband. It's a long and dysfunctional story, but her sister has been ostracized by the family, but the ex-husband has remained close. The e-mails were very one-sided, but disturbing. He would send things like "You and (our son) have a piece of my heart." Or "Hey sweetie, how's your day going?" When we took our son to our local fire department's open house, I found an e-mail from him saying, "I wish it were me taking you two to the fire house." He offered to take some time off work and drive down some day when I was out of town and take the two of them out for ice cream. He sent her a "happy sweetest day" e-mail and said, "What kind of brownie points do I get? I know what I have in mind, but I'll see what you come up with." 

She never responded inappropriately, but she never shut him down either. Worst of all, she never told me about these e-mails. When I asked her about them, she said the thought of having an affair with him was "gross" and that he was like a brother, no more. I said I suspected he had a different view of things. She told me I had no right to spy on her and she promptly changed her e-mail address so I couldn't see anything else. Then she forwarded me an e-mail from him that basically was taunting me through an e-mail to her. So rather than taking my concerns seriously, she immediately ran to him and told him what I had done and then they both taunted me.

Now I really don't think she's had an affair with him. But I'm disturbed at how she responded to my concerns. 

She's kicked me out of our bedroom, and insisted that I not sleep in the master room, even when she's out of town. She's declared it her "sanctuary," her one chance to get away from me and have peace. We haven't had sex since February. She says she's resigned herself to being my roommate and staying together even in misery for our son's sake. She's even considering quitting our Christian counselor because she feels like all the sessions are "bash the wife" night.

I'm writing because I'm truly hurting. I have become stronger and more certain of myself through all this. I used to internalize her complaints, but I've now realized that the issues are hers and hers alone. I'm not claiming to be a perfect husband or father - far from it. But I love them both and want to do what's best. I'm a bit dense at times and don't always know the right things to say, but my heart is always in the right place. (Her response is that it doesn't matter what my intent was, the result is that I did something wrong, so my intentions are irrelevant. She's actually said that with a straight face more than once!)

So, fellow believers, is there hope? In my humanity, I've got to admit that I miss being close to her. I miss sex. I want someone to love. I had hoped it would be her. Divorce is not an option, so I can't fall in love with someone else. But I had hoped God had so much more in store for us than just a bland sense of misery for the sake of our vows.

There are many on this forum who have told me it's time to cut her loose. If it were not for my Christian upbringing in the belief that divorce is a sin unless there's adultery or abuse, I might agree. On the other hand, I don't want to continue with things like they are.

I miss having a real marriage. I feel as if there's no hope; I can't move on, but what I have is just the illusion of a marriage. There is no emotional or physical intimacy. For now, the marriage is a farce. I really miss being able to talk to her about what's important to the both of us. Did I mention that I miss what little sex we used to have?

Does God care what I'm going through? Is there hope that this can ever change? How can two Christians who supposedly want to obey God end up like this?


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## Shaggy

Hurt, I really think there is loving in a Christian marriage, thrn there is being used and abused. Your wife is a bit of a bully, the bring kicked out of her sanctuary for instance. That is not the act of a woman living in a Christian marriage. That is the act of selfish possibly lslightoy crazy abusive person. As a Christian she should be working to build a strong marriage with her husband, not pushing him as far away, just short of diviorce as she can.

I not know there are huge red flags that either she is cheating, or she is going over the deep end. I'm sorry, but either way, Christian or not divorce and getting you away fom her abuse and weird gmes maybe the best course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

HurtInOhio: Read the following three books and some of the posts in the Infidelity section of this board.

1 - No More Mr Nice Guy
2 - Hold on to your Nutz
3 - Married Mans Sex Life Primer

I understand your background (I have a similar one), yet I found these books very valuable to "manning up". I hate to say this, but the best thing you'll ever do in this relationship is "man up". 

And one other thing - you wife is having an emotional affair, based on your story. 

Now think about this: You have nothing to lose anymore. Its time to establish your boundaries in the marriage and let her know what you are going to do. 

You sleep in your bed in your house. Do NOT do the chores for her anymore. If she wants to chat with her twin sisters Ex - she does it on her own dime, in her own place at her OWN EXPENSE.

Tell her you won't tolerate disrespect anymore and won't live in an open marriage (emotional or physical) and that you'll be happy to help her pack and call her a cab.

Take our word - you have to get strong to recover from this. Don't be mean or violent - just stick to the facts. I understand your belief system and hold a similar one myself. There is nothing in our belief systems that forces us to be door mats to our beloved spouses.

There is hope. It also wouldn't hurt to explain to her that her relationship with her sisters X is cheating - even if there hasn't been any physical (what is his proximity to your home?) - she's clearly disrespecting you by associating with him (he's a predator!) and you are letting her DISRESPECT you. 

Find your NU*S and put them back on. Christian leadership demands a confident man who knows when to let them go. Maybe she needs a dose of reality (life).

Do NOT be needy with her, or show emotion (like crying, moping) - just state your boundaries and if she violates them - drop the "hammer" and enforce the consequences for violating those boundaries.


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## hurtnohio

It may not sound like it, but I have become a stronger man through all of this. I used to internalize all the bad things she said about me and I saw myself as the failure she thinks I am. But lately, I've found myself saying things like: "I know you think I should have gotten more chores done last night, but I feel good about what I did do and I don't need you to scold me as if I were a child." 

It hasn't exactly made our love life return, but it has cut down the arguing. I think she's actually taken aback when I stand up for myself. 

I have a long history myself. I have an emotionally abusive mom who was overstaying her welcome for quite a while until my wife and I took a stand to establish some boundaries with her. She went off the deep end and threatened to either kill herself or sue us for mandated grandparent's visits (we had never threatened to terminate her visits; we just ask her to respect our house rules when she was here). So we cut off all contact with her for a year. We are slowly working to rebuild the relationship with my mom after she spent several sessions with a counselor (our condition to re-establish contact), but it'll be a long road there.

So now that I've established boundaries with my mom, I guess it's time to do so with my wife. It's weird how my wife can so clearly see my mom's inappropriate behavior for what it is, but has such a difficult time recognizing it in herself.

I'm not claiming to be perfect. Like most men, I don't listen as well as I should. I don't always pick up on subtle cues from our son as quickly as she does with her "mommy sense." I can sometimes be sarcastic, even when I don't mean to be. But I honestly don't think any of my faults are so bad that they justify the way she has behaved the past two years. And for the first time in our marriage, I'm starting to tell her exactly that.

I posted last night because I am just tired of never being allowed to be intimate (either physically or just to have a normal conversation) with her, and yet because of my vows I can't go be intimate with anyone else either (I don't have anyone particular in mind - I actively guard against flirting or other lead-ins to EAs). I feel as if I'm living in a no-man's land where my marriage is not really a marriage, and yet my vows keep me locked into a place where I can never seek what my soul craves. I think God meant it when he said it wasn't good for man to be alone, and I sure feel alone. If it weren't for our son, there would be absolutely zero joy in this house.

But I do sense that I need to ratchet up my Christian leadership a notch. I always thought leadership meant you took the family to church every Sunday, said prayers with the little guy every night, and made sure our spending patterns honored God. I'm starting to realize that leadership also means demanding that there be no disrespect in our house.

Stay tuned. It could be an interesting year....


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## Bartimaus

Wow....I am in Ohio and I am hurt too but brother,though I have put up with things that other men may not put up with. Your woman and I wouldn't get along for even one day. 
Maybe this is a little out of line but she sounds like she is either not interested in you and married for other reasons or she is cheating. You tell of two things about her that I couldn't cope with at all 1. The nagging 2. Not wanting sex.
Get christain counciling and all the help you can get because there is always a chance everything can greatly improve. But I think she needs to work on herself first,then work on the marriage.


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## anx

I agree. WOW.

Your wife has a lot she is doing wrong. Resigning to living as a roommate is pretty horrible. She very well might come out of it and realize her mistake, but that might take a lot of time. 

She didn't start out very stable and the issues with health have beat her down and she is making bad and unhealthy decisions emotionally. 

Pray hard and keep fighting the good fight. 

This can be fixed, but not by you. Its up to her and God. You pushing hard might help or hurt. Stay on the side of whats right, biblical, and realize how hurt/messed up your wife is right now. Empathize with that, but at the same time DO NOT BE OK WITH HER SIN. 

Be a loving husband to a wife who is totally lost. 

Blessings.


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## hurtnohio

anx said:


> She didn't start out very stable and the issues with health have beat her down and she is making bad and unhealthy decisions emotionally.


In a way, I blame myself. Looking back, I don't think she did start out very stable. She has some real hurts in her past. I saw some very subtle hints of this when we were dating, but we always worked it out and came out stronger. Little things like her coming completely undone if I got lost driving to a fancy restaurant for a date. She would nag me about not caring enough about her to plan properly. But it would be a once in a 6 month thing, so I thought it was something we could work through. I was young and ignorant (I was 25, she was 20 when we got married). But she was also fun-loving, care-free, compassionate toward those in need, and thought the world of me so I overlooked what now seem like pretty obvious warning signs.

For a while, she blamed me for making her sick. Fibromyalgia is exaggerated with stress, and she said the stress I put her under made her sick. She also blames me because I don't want to move out west right away (I'm willing to consider it if God provides a job or other way to pay for relocation, but think it unwise to just move without any means of financial support). 

I believe that the anger and hostility she's harboring in her heart toward me is doing far more to cause stress (even sickness) than me forgetting to put the milk away after breakfast.


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## anx

My story is in my profile and we have some similarities. I really hope things go well for you. I honestly think you are in for a very long road. 

The best encouragement I can give is to do what's right because it's right. 

Blessings.


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## metta

Hi,

I'll just comment quickly on your wife's condition.



hurtnohio said:


> My wife also has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia.


Fibromyalgia is a "new illness". It didn't exist up to recent times. The cause is extremly likely to be heavy metal poisonning (esp. mercury). Get informed about it, it also probably explains part of your wife's moods. Has your wife metallic tooth fillings? These are the main source of mercury poisoning.
I am not kidding here, heavy metal poisonning is real. Different people have different metabolic abilities to detoxify their bodies. A whole family (relatives of mine) have been affected had cured from that. The ONLY way to cure that is through chelation.



hurtnohio said:


> But she also preached at us about the evils of vaccines for our son (which I am a big believer in).


She has reasonable grounds to say such a thing. Mercury derivatives are used as a preservative in various drugs and vaccines.
Thiomersal controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This happened to a friend of my wife. She got her son vaccined, and a week later she clearly saw a difference in his behaviour; her son turned autist very quickly.



hurtnohio said:


> I had some deep misgivings about this naturopath, and asked my wife to not make any decisions about whether we would go to her until I had prayed and felt more clear about it. I believe this was the beginning of some deep resentment. My wife felt that I wasn't taking her pain seriously enough because I wasn't enthusiastically pursuing every possible avenue for healing. This caused us a lot of heartburn. Finally, we did travel halfway across the country to see this naturopath. We ended up spending over $1500 on treatments and supplements, but there was no improvement.


A diet entirely excluding diary products and certain carbohydrate (like bread, pasta, etc.) might bring some improvements in the symptoms, but that will not cure the illness. Only proper chelation can heal that. 

Please note that I am not qualified to say anything I said in this post! Please take professional advice!

Good luck!


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Wow! Your wife is unbelievably selfish and mean! I broke my neck 3 years ago and I still live in severe chronic pain. With the help of the pain clinic, I'm able to live a somewhat normal life. My husband and I never expect anything from one another. We do the things we do for each other out of love. I do not ever deny him sex either...ever. We have never in our 12 year marriage called each other a name. Actually, we never argue. I have never asked my husband to do any extra work around the house since my injury. He works very hard and brings all the money home. That in itself is enough.

Your wife is the one abusing you. She's also belittling and undermining you in the process. You need to stand up for yourself and not let her do this to you. Denying you sex is just plain wrong. It appears your wife no longer loves you. Your wife needs to change as well. She needs to start respecting, admiring, and praise you for all the hard work you put into your marriage and household. Also, both my husband and I have each others passwords for everything on the computer. Neither of us have anything to hide. If your wife was a good Christian, she wouldn't be so selfish and rude to you. Religion should not be a deciding factor in regards of staying in abusive marriage in my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio

As I've mentioned before, I feel that I am making progress at fixing my own issues. I don't know if my life changes are too little too late to turn things around in my marriage, but I'm at least taking responsibility for me.

Today was a typical interaction. A little background is in order; we own a rental property and suddenly the water usage there has spiked. Could be a water leak, could be a new girlfriend with 16 kids moved in. I've talked to the tenant (he says no one else has move in) and had one of the toilets fixed, but usage is still too high. 

Also, to help keep track of our discretionary expenses, I've limited myself to a monthly cash allowance to blow on myself any way I want. She also has similar discretion over a certain percentage of our monthly income. Any large expenditures outside of my "blow it" money must be discussed between the two of us.

That's the background. Today, she's opening the bills and notices our water bill at our rental is still too high. She asked if I would call the tenant this weekend. Now it's Thanksgiving weekend, we've got family in town, we're probably going to the mall at least once this weekend, and deer season in Ohio starts Monday (!). I doubt if I'll have time to pick up the phone. Obviously, if the tenant called and the roof was leaking, I would move quicker. But the water usage has been high for three months now, so it's not exactly an issue that needs to be addressed in 24 hours. So I said, "No, but I'll call him sometime this week." 

She blew her stack!! She said, "If the water bill stays high because of your procrastination, I'm taking it out of your allowance!" I told her that would be an unfair way to handle the issue. She continued to egg it on. I simply told her we weren't having this argument, I would call our tenant within the week, and to let the matter drop. 

It may not seem like a big deal to anyone else here, but this is a huge sea change for me. In the past, I would have promised the impossible phone call on a holiday weekend. I would have probably given in to her demands to dock my allowance (what am I? 14?!?!). I can't even believe my wife would threaten my allowance if I didn't make a phone call within a certain amount of time, as if she were my mother, but at least I stood firm this time. In the past, I would have probably descended to her level and kept arguing about silly stuff. Then I would have moped around all weekend internalizing all the bad stuff she would have said about her perception of my level of responsibility. 

I kept it calm, told her how it was going to be, and then told her to move on. It's amazing, but she was actually in a pretty good mood most of the rest of the day. 

Her mood has improved ever so slightly. Now instead of being constantly miserable, our relationship is merely very bad. Sad to say, but this is a huge improvement.

Maybe there's something to this "No More Mr. Nice Guy" stuff.


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## hurtnohio

metta said:


> The cause is extremly likely to be heavy metal poisonning (esp. mercury). Get informed about it, it also probably explains part of your wife's moods. Has your wife metallic tooth fillings? These are the main source of mercury poisoning.
> The ONLY way to cure that is through chelation.
> 
> 
> She has reasonable grounds to say such a thing. Mercury derivatives are used as a preservative in various drugs and vaccines.
> Thiomersal controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> This happened to a friend of my wife. She got her son vaccined, and a week later she clearly saw a difference in his behaviour; her son turned autist very quickly.


Didn't really mean to start a vaccine thread here. That's a debate that has not possible end, so let's save it for another forum.

My wife's health is an issue that indirectly relates to our relationship. I haven't been completely unwilling to try alternate treatments. I estimate that we've probably spent $10,000 on various "sure thing" alternative treatments in the last decade. 

We've tried chiropractic, enzyme therapy, some kind of neurotransmitter therapy(gave her migraines so bad she had double vision), low carb diet modification, low fat diet modification, avoiding milk and eggs, digestive supplement therapy, food allergy bloodwork and subsequent diet modification, magnet therapy, and probably some others I can't remember. To speak directly to metta's concerns, she's had blood work, urine analysis and hair analysis that all show mercury is not issue.

That's one of the reasons it gets under my skin so much when she claims I don't care whether she lives or dies. Given my history of being willing to try almost anything, it really hurts me to have her say that. It's almost as if anything I've tried to do the last 18 years to be supportive didn't even count.


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## Shaggy

While heavy metal poisoning is real - it doesn't come from fillings or shots. Sorry folks, but the science and facts simply don't back up the paranoid ramblings of the paranoid.

Black cats don't cause bad luck, birds on the roof don't bring death, and cats don't steal babies breath.

The so called doctor/scientist in the UK who started whole mercury in shots causes autism has been fully discredited by the scientific community when he couldn't actually show any evidence for his crap claim. In fact he has since recanted his claim, admitting he made it up. The sad thing is how many people are jumping on the bandwagon of this self admitted charlatan.

the amount of mercury in shots does not cause autism. In fact the latest research (weeks old) seems to show that autism is caused by too many connections being formed in the brain of sufferers. They are basically too heavily wired - and this is cause by genetics - not a shot preservative.


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## hurtnohio

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Wow! Your wife is unbelievably selfish and mean! I broke my neck 3 years ago and I still live in severe chronic pain. With the help of the pain clinic, I'm able to live a somewhat normal life. My husband and I never expect anything from one another. We do the things we do for each other out of love. I do not ever deny him sex either...ever. We have never in our 12 year marriage called each other a name. Actually, we never argue. I have never asked my husband to do any extra work around the house since my injury. He works very hard and brings all the money home. That in itself is enough.
> 
> Your wife is the one abusing you. She's also belittling and undermining you in the process. You need to stand up for yourself and not let her do this to you. Denying you sex is just plain wrong. It appears your wife no longer loves you. Your wife needs to change as well. She needs to start respecting, admiring, and praise you for all the hard work you put into your marriage and household. Also, both my husband and I have each others passwords for everything on the computer. Neither of us have anything to hide. If your wife was a good Christian, she wouldn't be so selfish and rude to you. Religion should not be a deciding factor in regards of staying in abusive marriage in my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for your comments. I'm not trying to claim that I'm a martyr of that I'm perfect. There are plenty of times that I'm sure I've slacked a little bit. I do try to take a little time for me occasionally, so I hope it doesn't appear that I was trying to portray myself as more heroic than I am. 

It's just that after a 10-hour work day, cooking, cleaning, playing with and bathing our son, putting him to bed and cutting the grass, I don't feel like I need to argue with her to justify the need to go to bed by 10:30 PM. That's when she frequently used to call me lazy (now, I just tell her I'm going to bed and I do it).

As to the lack of sex, she's made it clear that she is not engaging in sex because of our relationship issues. She's never claimed that her fibromyalgia is stopping her from having sex. It's 100% about the fact that she doesn't love me anymore.

I won't judge her relationship with God, even though she frequently judges mine. I honestly believe she has a distorted view of reality, where my every flaw is magnified 1,000 times and any good that I do is completely negated. That's what's frustrating, because trying to talk it out in a reasonable way usually leads no where but to more arguing.


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## metta

Shaggy said:


> While heavy metal poisoning is real - it doesn't come from fillings or shots. Sorry folks, but the science and facts simply don't back up the paranoid ramblings of the paranoid.
> 
> Black cats don't cause bad luck, birds on the roof don't bring death, and cats don't steal babies breath.
> 
> The so called doctor/scientist in the UK who started whole mercury in shots causes autism has been fully discredited by the scientific community when he couldn't actually show any evidence for his crap claim. In fact he has since recanted his claim, admitting he made it up. The sad thing is how many people are jumping on the bandwagon of this self admitted charlatan.
> 
> the amount of mercury in shots does not cause autism. In fact the latest research (weeks old) seems to show that autism is caused by too many connections being formed in the brain of sufferers. They are basically too heavily wired - and this is cause by genetics - not a shot preservative.


Hi Shaggy,

Everyone as to make his/her own opinion based on available facts.
I have 2 pieces of advice though:
- Be careful of the source of information; if you ask the scientific community "do you think that the vaccines and tooth fillings that you used for the past 50 years are causing autism and fibromyalgia?", the answer will receive is likely "no".
- Different people have different abilities to eliminate heavy metals depending on their genetical backgrounds; only a minority is unable to properly eliminate them; I have not seen a epidemiological study taking that into account (I would be happy if you could point me to one).



hurtnohio said:


> Didn't really mean to start a vaccine thread here.


That was not my intention and I made it clear in my previous post. You can at least let your wife know about it, and she can get informed and/or take action if she so wishes.

Best regards


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## RandomDude

> This can be fixed, but not by you. Its up to her and God.


It will be a challenge if she considers her "God" her CHURCH. That's my criticism of christianity, they speak so much about a relationship with God, yet why do they dictate so hard on how an individual's relationship with God should or should not be?

It's a spiritual journey for INDIVIDUALS. Bah!
"Never look to men for God"... oh the irony!


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## 2sick

hurtnohio said:


> Thanks for your comments. I'm not trying to claim that I'm a martyr of that I'm perfect. There are plenty of times that I'm sure I've slacked a little bit. I do try to take a little time for me occasionally, so I hope it doesn't appear that I was trying to portray myself as more heroic than I am.
> 
> It's just that after a 10-hour work day, cooking, cleaning, playing with and bathing our son, putting him to bed and cutting the grass, I don't feel like I need to argue with her to justify the need to go to bed by 10:30 PM. That's when she frequently used to call me lazy (now, I just tell her I'm going to bed and I do it).
> 
> As to the lack of sex, she's made it clear that she is not engaging in sex because of our relationship issues. She's never claimed that her fibromyalgia is stopping her from having sex. It's 100% about the fact that she doesn't love me anymore.
> 
> I won't judge her relationship with God, even though she frequently judges mine. I honestly believe she has a distorted view of reality, where my every flaw is magnified 1,000 times and any good that I do is completely negated. That's what's frustrating, because trying to talk it out in a reasonable way usually leads no where but to more arguing.


 I am astonished from the complete devotion that you have shown your w. I am brought to tears reading all that you are doing for your family. Your wife should be ashamed of herself for not acknowledging the extreme efforts you have made for her. I have MS and I would kill to have my h do just a portion of what you do! Although you say that you are not perfect nor a martyr, in my book you are damn close to it!! It's sad that she can't appreciate you as the "nice guy" ( it makes it even harder on us w's who truly need one). From what I've read, she seems to be the type of woman who needs to have boundaries, so great job with putting your foot down. However, also from reading your post, it seems like you are the type of person that naturally wants to help and wants to make the lives of those around you better....a true christian!!! I can't imagine how torn you are feeling. It has to be quite tiring to give and not receive.

As a Christian, I too understand the distaste in even thinking about a divorce, however you have to think about YOUR health and happiness. It was mentioned earlier about counseling, (sorry if I missed your response), if your w doesn't want to do it, you should definitely try yourself for just a little peace of mind.

Good luck and God Bless... and tell your w to be thankful for the UNBELIEVABLY devoted, supportive and loving h she has in you...she doesn't know how good she really has it!!!!!


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## Almostrecovered

metta said:


> Hi Shaggy,
> 
> Everyone as to make his/her own opinion based on available facts.
> I have 2 pieces of advice though:
> - Be careful of the source of information; if you ask the scientific community "do you think that the vaccines and tooth fillings that you used for the past 50 years are causing autism and fibromyalgia?", the answer will receive is likely "no".
> - Different people have different abilities to eliminate heavy metals depending on their genetical backgrounds; only a minority is unable to properly eliminate them; I have not seen a epidemiological study taking that into account (I would be happy if you could point me to one).
> 
> 
> That was not my intention and I made it clear in my previous post. You can at least let your wife know about it, and she can get informed and/or take action if she so wishes.
> 
> Best regards



well if the scientific community says no then that's fine with me, or will you start with conspiracy theory of drug companies?


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## COguy

Hurt, I made an account just to respond to your topic. Me and my wife were both christians (I waited until our wedding day). Your story has so many similarities to mine. As I was reading your story I really connected with both you and her. Before you even mentioned the man in the email I was thinking, "She's found someone else and he hasn't realized it yet."

I haven't shared my story on here yet, I will probably do it soon. I can tell you with 100% certainty that your wife is either cheating on you, or is going to very shortly. That may mean an emotional affair or physical or both. I just went through everything you are and was in complete denial that my wife could do something that crazy, and after I found out, could not believe how naive and stupid I was. I can tell you that if my wife would cheat, yours can too. Everyone is fallible, especially when they are hurting.

From everything you are telling me I can tell that you are a good guy, a good husband, and a good father. You are doing so many things right. Your heart is in the right place. Where you need work is not in your heart, it’s learning to apply your energy differently. Your wife is not satisfied, she has made this clear. It doesn’t matter how hard you are working or what you are doing, if you want to stay married you need to find out what she REALLY needs to feel supported. It doesn’t matter if you come home and clean the whole entire house and spit-polish all the furniture with a diaper. If she is telling you you don’t do enough around the house, it means that what you’re doing isn’t hitting her buttons. What really helped me with this is the 5 Love Language book. When I realized that my energy was being spent in the wrong place, making the change was ENJOYABLE.

Another thing that it looks like you struggle with, as did I, is stepping up and being the leader in the house. You’ll see a lot of talk on the forums about alpha and beta traits and what not. What I can tell you is that being the spiritual head of the house is very Alpha and very sexy. If you have seen Courageous, the last speech in the movie exudes the spirit of being Alpha, it’s just directed in a Christian way. Saving yourself for marriage, being a man of integrity, knowing your spiritual values, these are all very attractive to a woman and is probably why she was so attracted to you initially. You need to make sure you stand up for your values and integrity in the house just the same. You’ve started to do that and seen a positive impact, don’t stop. Know who you are.

As far as the other guy, you need to take action quickly. The biggest mistake I made is that I didn’t trust my gut, and that I tried to appease my wife instead of standing up for what I knew was right. Your wife is already in lying, rationalization mode. She didn’t admit anything was going on or say she was sorry, she denied and she got super defensive. She knows you can read her emails now so she is going to communicate in other venues. As you work to better yourself and your marriage, you need to be extremely cautious of your wife. Do not tell her you know ANYTHING yet. Keep it all to yourself. Any source of information you reveal will be deemed useless after that. If I was in your shoes, I would install keyloggers, check emails, phone records, text messages, and even install GPS in her car or purse. Your wife is vulnerable, this guy is running game on her, and she is not stopping it. That means she is either all aboard or she is thinking about it. What I recommended may sound extremely paranoid, but it needs to be done. I lived in denial for 6 weeks about my wife, even texted the guy (who was a Christian and an old friend of hers) about emailing my wife to make sure he wasn’t trying to disrespect her. I found out later that they were sex messaging eachother and planning for a trip so they could have a sexfest over a long weekend. I found this out AFTER she had a one-night stand with someone on a girls night out, while I was at home watching the kids cleaning the house so she would feel special when she got home. My Christian wife, who I saved myself for. Don’t be as naïve as I was. ALL of the warning signs are there. Do not ignore them.

I, like you, began to realize something wasn’t right before **** hit the fan so I had some time to prepare myself and was in a good position to spot what was going on. Had I not realized what was going on my wife might have ended up cheating for months without me knowing it.

I can't tell you exactly what to do at this point, I can only tell you what I did and how it helped. Counseling at this point is a must. Sounds like you guys need marriage and individual counseling. I also picked up the Love Dare. It helped me get in the right state of mind from trying to be rationalized that my wife was crazy, to realizing that I had my own part to play and was 50% responsible for our marriage problems. And I believe that 100% for myself and for you. Up to the point where your wife is unfaithful to you, you own your marriage problems 50%. You are a standup guy, I can tell, but don’t be so proud that you can’t see your own failures. Recognizing your part to play is a huge step, one that many guys can’t make, and I’m glad that you are man enough to spot that and act on it.

Second, while I did the Love dare I read the 5 Love Language book. This really helped me to focus on loving my wife in a way that meant something to her. It also helped me be vocal about what I needed from her.

Last, when I started to sense that something wasn’t right and suspected an emotional affair, I picked up Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson. This is what gave me the courage to walk out on my wife after she continued to be deceptive, and is what lead to her being honest with me about the situation and our reconciliation. I wish I would have read the book earlier. When I suspected my wife was having an emotional affair I started getting “clingy” and I think this drove her away. Conversely, I was trying to give her space so I let her text her “friends” and go out on girls nights. So I was giving her space where I should have given her none and being clingy where I should have been confident and assured.

My wife and I talk about this now, she’s not really sure I could have done anything at the time to stop it from happening (if I would have stopped her from going out that night she would have resented me and driven her away more), but it would have been nice for me to have ALL the facts on my own terms and allow her to come clean and tell me everything and see if she was really being honest. If nothing else, if your marriage doesn’t work out you have the evidence for a nice court case.

I can tell you that through all the bull****, our marriage is a million times stronger and in many ways better. There is real hope here. If you get through this your marriage will not be the same, you will know your wife in a deeper way. Once you know what pleases your wife, you will want to satisfy her every day. Think of it as an emotional orgasm.

It has also given us a real godly desire to help other people in the same boat. We have 2 friends in almost the exact same situation, and our mistakes are allowing us to be there for them in ways that few people can. It gives me an intense desire to help people such as yourself from experiencing what is probably the worst pain in the world (I think it must be greater than death, which is a loss of person but not in trust. An affair is experiencing the same loss, but in addition, you question that your relationship even existed at all).


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## hurtnohio

Wow COGuy. Thanks so much for that insight.

Here's another clue that things are getting worse. After my decision to not be a doormat any more, things have been calmer for a while. However, tonight we were making Christmas plans. Another subject came up that I've known was going to be touchy this year; our anniversary is a week before Christmas. I asked her what she wanted to do for it. She said, "Well we've got church duties that day, and I really don't want to go on a date with you, so....." and her voice trailed off. I asked her, "So do you want to pretend our wedding never happened?" Probably the wrong thing to say, but it tells me things are very, very dead in her mind. She didn't respond one way or another. 

We ended up arguing over the dumbest things tonight. I had opened a couple of windows at her request earlier in the night. Before going to bed, I said, "Do you want me to close the windows for you?" She went off on me, asking me if I was implying it was the woman's job to close windows and if I was trying to make myself sound noble or something for doing "a woman's job." I just sat there dumbfounded. How can such an innocent question get twisted so badly?

I keep wondering if the family history she's had may be part of this. Both her mom and dad have some extremely manipulative, deceitful family members in their extended family. One uncle is actually in prison for murdering his wife. There have been suicides, accusations of other murders (unproven), sexual abuse of minors and satanism. Fortunately, the family has broken off all contact with the worst offenders. 

Just to give you a little glimpse of how bad all this can be, her mom and dad have ceased all contact with my wife's twin sister because of some extremely poor life choices the sister made. I can understand that, because boundaries need to occasionally be enforced. What's troubling is they introduce my wife to new friends by saying, "This is our angel daughter. We also have a demon daughter, but you'll never meet her because we don't talk to her any more." Her mom made an off-handed comment once that the whole family would be better off if my wife's sister were just dead. She immediately apologized, but how did something like that come out of someone's mouth in the first place? What sane parent says that about their own child?

I wonder if they're starting to see me now as someone else to avoid. In other words, when I make an innocent mistake or do something thoughtless, are they interpreting my actions through the lens of their previous experiences with family members. And since she tells her mom and dad everything about any of our disagreements (even though I've repeatedly told her that's a very bad idea), they are probably filling her head with all sorts of evil images of me. Hard to fight something like that.

Not sure what to do. A lot of my Christian friends are starting to wonder aloud if I've reached the point of either considering a divorce or just accepting that I'll be miserable until the day I die. I can't quite mentally cross the divorce bridge, but I would also like to think that God's got bigger things in mind for me than enduring a miserable marriage until I die.

I guess what I need more than anything right now is for my brother and sister Christians to pray that God will give me wisdom as to what my next move should be.


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## hurtnohio

2sick said:


> I am astonished from the complete devotion that you have shown your w. I am brought to tears reading all that you are doing for your family. Your wife should be ashamed of herself for not acknowledging the extreme efforts you have made for her. I have MS and I would kill to have my h do just a portion of what you do! Although you say that you are not perfect nor a martyr, in my book you are damn close to it!! It's sad that she can't appreciate you as the "nice guy" ( it makes it even harder on us w's who truly need one). From what I've read, she seems to be the type of woman who needs to have boundaries, so great job with putting your foot down. However, also from reading your post, it seems like you are the type of person that naturally wants to help and wants to make the lives of those around you better....a true christian!!! I can't imagine how torn you are feeling. It has to be quite tiring to give and not receive.
> 
> As a Christian, I too understand the distaste in even thinking about a divorce, however you have to think about YOUR health and happiness. It was mentioned earlier about counseling, (sorry if I missed your response), if your w doesn't want to do it, you should definitely try yourself for just a little peace of mind.
> 
> Good luck and God Bless... and tell your w to be thankful for the UNBELIEVABLY devoted, supportive and loving h she has in you...she doesn't know how good she really has it!!!!!


Thanks for your kind words. But really, I do know there are times I haven't been as thoughtful as I should have been. It's just hard to be thoughtful the day after you've been called some of the terrible things she's called me. 

And I appreciate the thoughts at the end, but I doubt if me passing along your message will help things much. She'll probably see it as further proof that I am a self-centered jerk who only cares about how others see me. But I do appreciate your kind words.


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## COguy

Getting extremely touchy over silly things, where this is a departure from normal behavior, is another big warning sign that she's involved with someone else. It's a way of justifying her going outside of the relationship. If you were captain sweetheart she'd be a huge jerk for cheating, if she can make you into a thoughtless butthead, then she can rationalize involvement with someone else without feeling guilty.

It's going to be hard going for you, and I pray for wisdom for you during this time. It's going to test your character, and you're going to walk away from this changed. No matter what happens with your marriage, you're going to grow closer to God (you will need to rely on him), and you're life will not be the same. It will take time, but in time you will see the good that will come from this through all the hurt.

No matter what happens with your wife, remember that she is the mother of your son and she'll be involved in your life forever. Even though the human in me wanted to destroy my wife's life and reputation, I made the choice to love her and respect her as a person no matter where our relationship went. I am so thankful that God had been working in my heart in the weeks that lead up to me finding out. If I had not known the mercy of God and his love even through OUR unfaithfulness to him, I would not have had the ability to love my wife through this. You must CHOOSE to love, even through the highest level of betrayal. If you can do that, you will have true peace and your decisions will be effortless because your heart will be in the right place. You will still experience pain, but there will be hope behind it.

Please keep us informed of what's going on. I will be praying for you.


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## hurtnohio

I am curious about how I should handle the whole anniversary issue. Should I just let the day pass without even a mention of it? The "No More Mr. Nice Guys" out there would probably say "Absolutely." She's the one acting like we're already emotionally divorced, so let her live with the consequences.

But that still seems a little cold. She's already said she doesn't want to go out with me on our anniversary. And I know that the chances of actually being intimate that day are about equal with Herman Cain's chances with his wife (except I wasn't unfaithful).

Do I at least get her a card? Flowers? Say "Happy Anniversary?" Or should I just pretend it's any other day in December because she has effectively shut me out?

What's a good way to handle a situation like this without appearing weak one hand, but also without appearing to be a snot on the other?

I'm still learning how to apply this "No More Nice Guy" stuff.


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## COguy

I definitely wouldn't do anything to appear desperate or clingy. At the least I would give her a card letting her know that you respect her and value her as a person and as a good mother. If you want to "do something" I would plan activity you could do, something that doesn't require full concentration on the other person (like Dinner would be out but maybe painting or go-karts). You can let her know that you made fun plans for the anniversary and you'd enjoy her company but if she doesn't want to come you are still going to go.

If she says no, go out and have a fun time. Don't answer the phone while you're out. Make sure you do something you're sure to enjoy so you'll actually come back with a smile on your face.


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## hurtnohio

RandomDude said:


> It will be a challenge if she considers her "God" her CHURCH. That's my criticism of christianity, they speak so much about a relationship with God, yet why do they dictate so hard on how an individual's relationship with God should or should not be?
> 
> It's a spiritual journey for INDIVIDUALS. Bah!
> "Never look to men for God"... oh the irony!


We're not particularly tied to one church. We are members and regular attenders of a specific church and we have many Godly friends at this church to whom we are both looking for advice. But we would not hesitate to worship somewhere else if we felt God were directing us to leave our current body of believers.

While your relationship with God is ultimately between you and Him, it's not good to try to work out that relationship in a vacuum. You need other believers to help you gain perspective. Yes, the church as a whole has had problems with trying to control people over the last two centuries. But I believe that overall, the contribution of churches to helping people out far outweighs the occasions when they fall short of God's glory.

I was a full-time pastor for about two years when I was much younger. I can tell you all kinds of behind-the-scenes stories about the church missing the mark. But I still believe overall the church is a good thing.

That being said, my wife and I have never hesitated to leave a church where we did not feel God was the focus. Years ago, we moved to Tennessee and were checking out churches in the area. We attended one that looked very modern and squared away on the outside, but inside it made us feel so creepy that we actually stood up and walked out in the middle of the pastor's sermon. I can't explain it, but it just seemed that there was almost a cult-like dedication to the pastor. 

For example, no one in the church would say "Amen" unless he did; the moment he said "Amen," the whole crowd broke into this chant of "Amen, Amen, Amen" until the pastor said something else and then the amens immediately stopped. We also noticed that anytime someone got up to go the restroom or whatever, an usher would appear and escort them out the back door and wait until they came back and then escort them back to their pews. Very odd. Even had a couple of ushers chase us to the parking lot to ask what was wrong.

Later on, we discovered this place was rumored to be a snake-handling church. No wonder we felt creeped out by the place!


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## cb45

*the ironies & the hypocrisiescan be overwhelming at times, especially when u hear so called pastors putting down other pastors be they little or big time "names". u cut yer preachers
some slack at first, the christian thing to do of course, but u get tired of seeing no repentence, no humbleness, just arrogance and other satanic characteristics (when u get down to it). 

we all error, but leaders have to lead by example, and by having a servant mentality as our saviour did, not SEEKING to 
be served.

yet, God in his wisdom uses them still to do help us who are seeking HIM diligently, by either confronting these pastors or
teaching desperate for fellowship believers to just get up/pack up and leave by obeying the H>S> voice/prompting/unction(s).

I am still looking, still hoping, still praying, as i teeter back n forth with being confrontational &/or timid.

better still, to be an instrument for the H>S> to work any way
H>S> chooses to use me. Praise God for HIS patience, Grace &
Mercy with me & others like me.

shalom *


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## hurtnohio

COguy said:


> I definitely wouldn't do anything to appear desperate or clingy. At the least I would give her a card letting her know that you respect her and value her as a person and as a good mother. If you want to "do something" I would plan activity you could do, something that doesn't require full concentration on the other person (like Dinner would be out but maybe painting or go-karts). You can let her know that you made fun plans for the anniversary and you'd enjoy her company but if she doesn't want to come you are still going to go.
> 
> If she says no, go out and have a fun time. Don't answer the phone while you're out. Make sure you do something you're sure to enjoy so you'll actually come back with a smile on your face.


That sounds like pretty reasonable advice! I just might do it that way. Thanks!


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## hurtnohio

Been feeling kind of stuck this week. My wife has actually been acting nicer toward me, which is kind of messing with my head. Until tonight, that is. She was having a good day physically, so she spent several hours reorganizing our panty and kitchen cabinets. Then when I got home she lectured me about how messy I was and how she wanted me to promise to do a better job of keeping the pantry straight.

I kept my anger in check, but stuff like this really grates on me. The reason I don't always put the peanut butter back on the "right" shelf is because when I made the last peanut butter sandwich, I was also mopping the floor, changing our toddler's diaper, and serving her supper on the couch (because she hurts too much to sit up at the table at the end of the day). 

So I spend 6 weeks trying to help meet her needs and then she feels energetic for one day and suddenly I'm the problem? Again, not trying to play martyr here. She does do as much around the house during the day (when I'm at work) as someone with her condition could be expected to. It's just that I do a lot, too, and then to be lectured as if I'm some kind of irresponsible teen just really irritates me!

Also, the "virtual divorce" thing is getting old. I may sound selfish, but I feel as if I'm trapped. She refuses to have sex with me, but I'm bound by my morals and vows to not seek it elsewhere. What's the point of staying married if we're just going to be co-babysitters? I'm still not contemplating divorce, but I just feel so stuck; it's like someone died, and yet I'm not allowed to move on.

Continue to pray for me to have wisdom.


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## Bartimaus

Hurt...I havn't read every word in this thread ( I am too fidgitty and caffinated,lol,coffee and pepsi) but man oh man,this thread sounds too terrible to be true. If you are being honest with all this I do feel sorry for you brother but...I also admire you and kinda envy you for your patience and care. IF you are being honest then man you have qualities that very few men have. 
My lord!!!! The effort you have put forth should make you a candidate for every councilor and every marriage help to be free that is available. If I were a professional therapist or councilor I would offer you totally free help of any and all I could do. Your situation,in my opinion warrants you to any free book you would want to write or any television program to pay all expenses to have you and your story brought to national attention to get you and your wife good free help!
Don't know if you have said or not...but is there any chance that your wife might be a closet alcoholic or be hooked on drugs bad? I don't mean that mean or harsh at all but she does sound to me like someone that could have a terrible addiction,I hope not. Maybe it is from the family issures that her family has had. If so...I would to God that every real and genuine christain that knows how to really get ahold of God would start a fast and prayer chain for you and your wife. I would love to see God do a real,literal,visible miracle for you and her. 
I am sorry to say but my upcoming divorce in two days has caused me to backslide and run from God. But I do know he still does work miracles just like he did in the bible. I have seen real,visible,un-deniable miralces of visable healings that couldn't be faked and I have seen God do the impossible many times. Your wife and marriage seem to need the deliverance power of God to work a miracle. Her family had a demonic influence it sounds like and needs a strong miracle from God to get rid of it. Guess I don't care to seek that for my marriage anymore but I do hope that miracle for yours.
About you anniversay date and how you are coping with her...don't be mean to her but maybe you might want to try to be neutral about somethings and see if she may come to realize that you have been too good to lose. Don't know,but I wish you all the best!


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## COguy

You're feelings of being trapped are completely normal for your situation. Hurt, there's a good chance your wife is involved with someone else, if that's true it means that right now YOU are the one working to save your marriage. That's very taxing. A marriage by nature requires two people that are dedicated to making it work.

I remember in the time of my wife's cheating, I had a lot of the same feelings. "Why am I trying so hard to make this work when she is so hateful and callus towards me??"

Assuming she is cheating, it's not going to get better until she's remorseful. Up until that point, you can only act like the better person to try and convince her that you are the man for her. Continue working to meet her needs as much as possible and be as calm as you can. It makes it harder and harder for her to lie to herself about how bad she has it (which makes it easier to rationalize cheating).

Has anything turned up on the snooping front? Did you install a keylogger? VAR in the car? GPS? Check texting? CC bills? Phone records?


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## cb45

if u dont get any "word" then i u have to stick with what u've been "taught" & can live/sleep with i guess.

in short, u'll have to make yer own decision, or wait it out as 
believe it or not "feelings" do pass.

they just (seem to)... take... soooo... darrrrrrn... laaaaawwwwng (long, that is)!

shalom


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## hurtnohio

Bartimaus said:


> Don't know if you have said or not...but is there any chance that your wife might be a closet alcoholic or be hooked on drugs bad? I don't mean that mean or harsh at all but she does sound to me like someone that could have a terrible addiction,I hope not. Maybe it is from the family issures that her family has had. If so...I would to God that every real and genuine christain that knows how to really get ahold of God would start a fast and prayer chain for you and your wife. I would love to see God do a real,literal,visible miracle for you and her.


Please don't make me a hero. I blame myself because I saw a lot of early signs about this kind of stuff way back when we dated. It just never got this bad. And we always talked our way through things. And I was young, stupid and in love. My biggest problem is that I've had pretty low self-esteem all my life, so when she said bad things about me, I just internalized them and believed they were true. Until recently, I actually believed I deserved to be treated the way I was being treated. No heroism there. Just my own dysfunction being co-dependent with hers. But I'm growing and learning how to be assertive, so there is some good coming out of the bad. 

I've gotten to be less dependent on how others see me; when the love of your life sees you as nothing but bad, somehow what the guy in the cubicle at work thinks about you doesn't matter any more. That's more good coming out of the bad. But please don't make me out to be a hero. I was just a broken guy who didn't know to expect any better.

I don't think she's into mind-altering substances. In addition to her other physical issues, she has a liver disease (unrelated to alcohol), and she's been told that even moderate drinking could be deadly for her. She's not even allowed to take acetominophen. And she does take that pretty seriously, so I just don't see it happening.

I honestly believe her brokenness is caused by all the family stuff she's endured. An early example; her parents wouldn't let her join her school's choir because they were afraid she might get a solo, she might actually be good at said solo, and if she was good at singing she might get conceited and selfish. Rather than let her do something she might enjoy or be good at, they immediately assumed the worst would happen so never let her participate in anything. They grudgingly allowed her to be inducted into Honor Society in her senior year (her grades had always been good), but were very worried about it. They were afraid she'd get a big-head and "city-fied" if she spent too much time around other academic achievers. 

She just barely made it to college (once there, she excelled) due to her parents' lack of support. They saw a college degree as something else to brag about. Fortunately, she had a teacher her senior year who saw her potential and took it as a mission to talk her parents into letting her apply to college. Her dad's preferred method of punishing her as a teen was to refuse to talk to her for as long as a week at a time. (Funny thing; now he's refusing to talk to me! His methods haven't changed much over the years) Having that kind of upbringing can't have been good for someone's psyche.

As I've been a part of her family for two decades, I've observed that they have more than their share of drama. And I'm starting to realize that maybe they bring a lot of that drama on themselves. Refusing to talk to people over imagined slights is not normal. I've heard them publicly accuse people of murder without proof and when the police had already ruled the death a suicide. Those kinds of things definitely don't lead to a drama-free life.

So our problem is that two broken people got married to each other and brought our baggage with us. I'm responsible for at least half of our problems. I haven't been a perfect husband; when I'm tired my sarcasm comes out when I least expect it and I know I've hurt people's feelings. But I've always tried to help out around the house, be responsible, and support her dreams. I apologize a lot, even when I don't think I've done anything wrong. But until this past year, we've still said "I love you" and had sex, even when times were tough. Now that she has told me there's no love left and actually moved me to another room is new territory for us.

In my opinion, she has let her anger over all the disappointments she's felt with me rule her life. Her bitterness toward me is a palpable thing. And that's so sad to me.


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## COguy

So many similarities to my story.

You're wife has been hurting for a long time. People that are hurting do crazy things. Unthinkable things.

If your wife is cheating, she's going to try and make you look horrible. Meanwhile, she's going to be duelling her own nature in her brain. That kind of brain warfare takes a toll on a person, and in external appearances makes someone seem legitimately crazy.

Imagine the stress of knowing you're a decent person but being extremely deceitful to your spouse and betraying your marriage vows. The more positively you treat her, the more guilt and shame she will feel and the crazier it will make her. Until she hits the point where her pleasure is greater than pain though, she'll continue.

That's why I think it's a good idea to get some "proof". If you can get proof she's cheating, you can kick her out, and that will change her idea to the whole thing quite rapidly. With the actions your wife is taking, it's clear to me that something else is going on. It might just be an EA, but it's still cheating nonetheless.

I'd start reading books about infidelity and recovering from an affair so you can spot the signs and develop a game plan before you find out for sure. I'm so glad that I had the information and had a plan before I found out.


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## hurtnohio

Today's our 18 year anniversary. Given her strong reaction a few weeks back when I asked her how (and if) she wanted to celebrate it this year, I decided to keep things cool and see if she acknowledged it. So far, I haven't even gotten a "Good morning," much less "happy anniversary."

I wrote her a card last night that basically says thanks for being a good mother to our son. I'm going to give it to her tonight. But it still stinks that things have gotten so toxic that she doesn't even want to acknowledge the day. Most years, she's been all over this and has actually pushed me to plan bigger and better dates every year. She's always insisted that we do something even if it was difficult because of the holiday a week away.

This year, it's just another day. When a relationship is so dead that the WIFE doesn't want to celebrate the anniversary, is there any hope left?

It's so sad, but then not that surprising.


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## COguy

hurtnohio said:


> Today's our 18 year anniversary. Given her strong reaction a few weeks back when I asked her how (and if) she wanted to celebrate it this year, I decided to keep things cool and see if she acknowledged it. So far, I haven't even gotten a "Good morning," much less "happy anniversary."
> 
> I wrote her a card last night that basically says thanks for being a good mother to our son. I'm going to give it to her tonight. But it still stinks that things have gotten so toxic that she doesn't even want to acknowledge the day. Most years, she's been all over this and has actually pushed me to plan bigger and better dates every year. She's always insisted that we do something even if it was difficult because of the holiday a week away.
> 
> This year, it's just another day. When a relationship is so dead that the WIFE doesn't want to celebrate the anniversary, is there any hope left?
> 
> It's so sad, but then not that surprising.


There's hope, but not while she's still involved with an EA or PA. You'll keep hearing us bring it up because it's so obvious to those of us that have been in your shoes. Have you done any snooping yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio

COguy said:


> There's hope, but not while she's still involved with an EA or PA. You'll keep hearing us bring it up because it's so obvious to those of us that have been in your shoes. Have you done any snooping yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't have the resources to do any serious snooping. She handles the finances, and things are so tight she'd notice if I purchased a key logger or hired a detective.

However, the things she tells me about how she spends her day check out. For example, when she says she hasn't felt well and that she and our son just had a lazy day at home, I can tell (from the odometer and how it was parked) that the car really hasn't moved. When she says she spent the whole day at Sam's Club, there really is a trunk full of groceries for me to unload. Other than her disrespect toward me, I have never caught her in an inconsistencies that would indicate an affair.

Her response to my confrontation was to take on a very paranoid worldview. She accused me of bugging our house phone, even up to the point of having our local phone company come out and run diagnostic tests on our phone lines to ensure there weren't any phone taps.

Through a lot of other things in her life and her family's, I really believe she doesn't have the ability to see people as anything other than black and white. The fact that she lives with me and sees my faults means that I must be bad since I'm not perfect. Once she sees me as bad, everything I do must be bad. Our marriage counselor even suggested (privately) that I read "No More Walking on Eggshells," which is about Borderline Personality Disorder. Our counselor didn't make any diagnosis or say anything else other than that I should read the book. But I wonder if she was hinting at something.

I've watched her mom and dad make friends with complete strangers and share all the family secrets within the first week of knowing someone. After about 6 months, they'll learn something unpleasant about that person and then write them off and tell everyone else how bad they are. Frequently, they'll end up moving and/or changing phone numbers to get away from that person because now that person knows an awful lot of family dirty laundry. I've seen this happen time and time and time again. 

They can also flip the other way; they used to badmouth my ex-brother-in-law (yeah, that one) to me non-stop. These days, he's the best thing that ever happened to the family, and I'm guessing her mom and dad would love it if my wife did leave me for him. Jerry Springer knows nothing about drama compared to this stuff!

Her mom is in poor health, and the family is frequently citing stress as a cause. And there certainly is cause for stress. Between some sexual abuse, murders and suicides, there is certainly a lot of stress. But a lot of the stress is self-induced. And for some reason I seem to be the only one who can see this.

Sometimes, I wish there were an affair. At least then I'd know what I'm up against and could deal with it appropriately.


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## accept

Coming late into this. I have basically only read the long first post. Your problem is really not with your wife but with your religion. Most religions believe in divorce. Or at least that the husband is entitled to. They realise that some people just dont get on together and there is no need to suffer for life. I dont know if you have done counselling or if your religion allows it. But without it just waiting and I suppose youre praying hard as well for improvement just doesnt work. You first have to sort your religion out, I wouldnt wonder if that wasnt part of your marriage problems and then your wife.


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## COguy

hurtnohio said:


> I don't have the resources to do any serious snooping. She handles the finances, and things are so tight she'd notice if I purchased a key logger or hired a detective.
> 
> However, the things she tells me about how she spends her day check out. For example, when she says she hasn't felt well and that she and our son just had a lazy day at home, I can tell (from the odometer and how it was parked) that the car really hasn't moved. When she says she spent the whole day at Sam's Club, there really is a trunk full of groceries for me to unload. Other than her disrespect toward me, I have never caught her in an inconsistencies that would indicate an affair.
> 
> Her response to my confrontation was to take on a very paranoid worldview. She accused me of bugging our house phone, even up to the point of having our local phone company come out and run diagnostic tests on our phone lines to ensure there weren't any phone taps.


She may not be involved in a physical affair, it could be through emails, phone, texts, etc. That's often how most of them start, and since your first evidence was via email, that's where I'd start. A keylogger is a good idea, there's many free ones on the internet (google free keylogger).

Can you check her phone records online or from a paper bill? Or get physical access to her phone? Is she deleting phone text messages or call logs?


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## 2sick

COguy said:


> I definitely wouldn't do anything to appear desperate or clingy. At the least I would give her a card letting her know that you respect her and value her as a person and as a good mother. If you want to "do something" I would plan activity you could do, something that doesn't require full concentration on the other person (like Dinner would be out but maybe painting or go-karts). You can let her know that you made fun plans for the anniversary and you'd enjoy her company but if she doesn't want to come you are still going to go.
> 
> If she says no, go out and have a fun time. Don't answer the phone while you're out. Make sure you do something you're sure to enjoy so you'll actually come back with a smile on your face.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
It's sad to play games but sadly sometimes that's what is needed. I still don't think she's cheating (could be wrong though)... maybe going through some sort of chemical imbalance do to illness??


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## 2sick

hurtnohio said:


> I honestly believe her brokenness is caused by all the family stuff she's endured. An early example; her parents wouldn't let her join her school's choir because they were afraid she might get a solo, she might actually be good at said solo, and if she was good at singing she might get conceited and selfish. Rather than let her do something she might enjoy or be good at, they immediately assumed the worst would happen so never let her participate in anything. They grudgingly allowed her to be inducted into Honor Society in her senior year (her grades had always been good), but were very worried about it. They were afraid she'd get a big-head and "city-fied" if she spent too much time around other academic achievers.
> 
> She just barely made it to college (once there, she excelled) due to her parents' lack of support. They saw a college degree as something else to brag about. Fortunately, she had a teacher her senior year who saw her potential and took it as a mission to talk her parents into letting her apply to college. Her dad's preferred method of punishing her as a teen was to refuse to talk to her for as long as a week at a time. (Funny thing; now he's refusing to talk to me! His methods haven't changed much over the years) Having that kind of upbringing can't have been good for someone's psyche.
> 
> As I've been a part of her family for two decades, I've observed that they have more than their share of drama. And I'm starting to realize that maybe they bring a lot of that drama on themselves. Refusing to talk to people over imagined slights is not normal. I've heard them publicly accuse people of murder without proof and when the police had already ruled the death a suicide. Those kinds of things definitely don't lead to a drama-free life.
> 
> So our problem is that two broken people got married to each other and brought our baggage with us. I'm responsible for at least half of our problems. I haven't been a perfect husband; when I'm tired my sarcasm comes out when I least expect it and I know I've hurt people's feelings. But I've always tried to help out around the house, be responsible, and support her dreams. I apologize a lot, even when I don't think I've done anything wrong. But until this past year, we've still said "I love you" and had sex, even when times were tough. Now that she has told me there's no love left and actually moved me to another room is new territory for us.
> 
> In my opinion, she has let her anger over all the disappointments she's felt with me rule her life. Her bitterness toward me is a palpable thing. And that's so sad to me.


It sounds like you've already figured out the problem!!! Resentment and low self esteem goes a long way at hurting a marriage...for BOTH of you. However communication can go further in healing it!!! 

I change my vote regarding your Anniversary...I say ask her to join you in counseling so that you can have a positive forum to open lines of communication. IMO she is feeling hurt and no amount of housework will heal that...especially if you said things just drastically changed only this year.


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## hurtnohio

2sick said:


> It sounds like you've already figured out the problem!!! Resentment and low self esteem goes a long way at hurting a marriage...for BOTH of you. However communication can go further in healing it!!!
> 
> I change my vote regarding your Anniversary...I say ask her to join you in counseling so that you can have a positive forum to open lines of communication. IMO she is feeling hurt and no amount of housework will heal that...especially if you said things just drastically changed only this year.


We've done counseling. It was in a counseling session that I confronted her about the e-mails. She's since said that the only thing we ever do in counseling is argue and then pray (it's a Christian counselor), and we can do that at home for free. So she's pretty much made it clear she thinks the counseling is a waste of time.

Our counselor told me she sees that reaction a lot when things start to go a little deeper. She says it's not an uncommon reaction for one spouse to pull back for a while when the counseling touches on a sensitive area. She's encouraging me to continue coming in for individual counseling and at the the worst I'll be gaining additional insight that will help me cope. At best, maybe my wife will see that I'm still making an effort and will want to come back.

So one of my New Year's resolutions is to resume counseling, with or without my wife.


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## hurtnohio

She woke me up at 1:30 this morning because she finally opened my card. She said, "Thanks. That was sweet," and then retreated back to her room.


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## accept

That is the problem with counselors there arent many good ones around. Praying doesnt sort problems out.
You have to get a counselor who agree to be a judge when you argue and its best not a religious one.


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## 2sick

hurtnohio said:


> We've done counseling. It was in a counseling session that I confronted her about the e-mails. She's since said that the only thing we ever do in counseling is argue and then pray (it's a Christian counselor), and we can do that at home for free. So she's pretty much made it clear she thinks the counseling is a waste of time.
> 
> Our counselor told me she sees that reaction a lot when things start to go a little deeper. She says it's not an uncommon reaction for one spouse to pull back for a while when the counseling touches on a sensitive area. She's encouraging me to continue coming in for individual counseling and at the the worst I'll be gaining additional insight that will help me cope. At best, maybe my wife will see that I'm still making an effort and will want to come back.
> 
> So one of my New Year's resolutions is to resume counseling, with or without my wife.


First of all I apologize, I some how missed your post that yesterday was your anniversary, so sorry for the anniversary reference.

Second, did you read the book that your counselor suggested? 
I agree with you that I think she was trying to imply something. Although I still don't think your wife is cheating, I do think that she probably has been sharing her thoughts with the sister's ex and he is probably getting the wrong idea about you (since you've said she has called you all sorts of things).

Definitely stick to the New Year's resolution!!!! It can only help...with or without her.


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## hurtnohio

Admittedly, it is a little strange for the man to be the one lamenting that the wife didn't celebrate the anniversary. However, since she's made such a big deal about it in the past, that makes this year's lack of even a greeting that much more glaring.


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## hurtnohio

From what I'm hearing, the ex brother-in-law is now dating someone else and is bringing her to the family Christmas. So did I misread those e-mails, or did they really have as many red flags in them as I thought? I did ask for advice from several trusted male friends before I confronted, and every one of them agreed that there was a problem there.

Or is it possible that he has moved on to someone else after finding out that I wouldn't stand for his opening moves?

I wish communication weren't so toxic with my wife right now. I really would like to talk this out, but any time I bring the subject up she goes ballistic. She still thinks I'm bugging the phones in the house. Really wish we could talk things out without the conversation always deteriorating into bizarre conspiracies and accusations.


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## COguy

hurtnohio said:


> From what I'm hearing, the ex brother-in-law is now dating someone else and is bringing her to the family Christmas. So did I misread those e-mails, or did they really have as many red flags in them as I thought? I did ask for advice from several trusted male friends before I confronted, and every one of them agreed that there was a problem there.
> 
> Or is it possible that he has moved on to someone else after finding out that I wouldn't stand for his opening moves?
> 
> I wish communication weren't so toxic with my wife right now. I really would like to talk this out, but any time I bring the subject up she goes ballistic. She still thinks I'm bugging the phones in the house. Really wish we could talk things out without the conversation always deteriorating into bizarre conspiracies and accusations.


Yes, you have all of the red flags. Here's a good list.

Top 9 Signs Your Spouse Is Cheating

Can't explain the paranoia about the bugging, but getting upset and defensive when you bring it up is another warning sign. My wife flipped out when I mentioned that she was being really protective of her phone and asked her if something was going on. She came at me so hard and was so adamant nothing was going on that I thought I was being crazy.

The ex's girlfriend though, unless it's your wife, would not have any bearing on your situation. He may have something on the side on top of your wife, cheaters cheat on eachother too. My wife was involved in an EA, sending naked pictures to another guy, and slept with another guy on top of that. Ironically, she had talked to EA guy about making sure he "waited" for her till we were divorced. So she was cheating on me, and this other guy who she was really good friends with.

What would be suspicious is if you find out when he was with his family, and try to recall where she was at that time. If she was on vacation or something, you pretty much just had your confirmation.

Reading your posts objectively though, you already have enough evidence. The things he was saying to her were things that you would say after a strong connection was already formed. You wouldn't seek to usurp the spouse of a woman that you were just flirting with, he was acting like your wife's boyfriend. It shows they've discussed intimate details and she's allowed him to be close. Wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that there was sex talk involved or that she even is having a PA with the guy.


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## 2sick

hurtnohio said:


> From what I'm hearing, the ex brother-in-law is now dating someone else and is bringing her to the family Christmas. So did I misread those e-mails, or did they really have as many red flags in them as I thought? I did ask for advice from several trusted male friends before I confronted, and every one of them agreed that there was a problem there.
> 
> Or is it possible that he has moved on to someone else after finding out that I wouldn't stand for his opening moves?
> 
> I wish communication weren't so toxic with my wife right now. I really would like to talk this out, but any time I bring the subject up she goes ballistic. She still thinks I'm bugging the phones in the house. Really wish we could talk things out without the conversation always deteriorating into bizarre conspiracies and accusations.


Only you can really understand the family dynamics. Is the family close in general? I guess you can always wait until Christmas when everyone is around to see how your w as well as the rest of family reacts to the girlfriend. Again, not to sound like a broken record....but....I still don't think she is cheating (JMO...and could be wrong) Sadly, IMO I think she is chemically imbalanced and probably needs to see a professional....again JMO and could be wrong!

You were able to talk with her earlier. Try to replicate what you did then that worked... the tone of voice, the wording, even the gestures/eye contact. It worked before it's bound to work again!!!! Because in actuality, the ONLY way any relationship works is through communications!!!! You got to get her talking again!!!

Good luck and hope your Christmas is joyful!!!!


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## hurtnohio

2sick said:


> Only you can really understand the family dynamics. Is the family close in general? I guess you can always wait until Christmas when everyone is around to see how your w as well as the rest of family reacts to the girlfriend. Again, not to sound like a broken record....but....I still don't think she is cheating (JMO...and could be wrong) Sadly, IMO I think she is chemically imbalanced and probably needs to see a professional....again JMO and could be wrong!
> 
> You were able to talk with her earlier. Try to replicate what you did then that worked... the tone of voice, the wording, even the gestures/eye contact. It worked before it's bound to work again!!!! Because in actuality, the ONLY way any relationship works is through communications!!!! You got to get her talking again!!!
> 
> Good luck and hope your Christmas is joyful!!!!


I am completely unwelcome at family gatherings. Her mom and dad reluctantly invited me to come so they could get my wife and son there the whole day. When I wasn't invited, I requested that I at least get to spend Christmas morning with my son before my wife went tearing off to her mom and dad's with him. So now I'm invited, but not welcome, if you catch what I mean.

I try to talk to her about it. But things go downhill so quickly any more. She starts freaking out and calling me a snoop, saying outlandish things about me, and becoming so unreasonable that I need to walk away. Or when I do suck it up and try to listen to her, it becomes a one-way lecture instead of a conversation. As in she spends hours on end non-stop haranguing me about every little mistake I've ever made and wondering aloud why I hate her so much. When I so much as comment between her breaths that I don't hate her, she starts yelling at me for disrespecting her by interrupting. 

Our counselor commented once when we were discussing something that she (my wife) seemed like a mother scolding a wayward child (me). My wife actually agreed! She was proud of the fact that she was acting like my mother, saying she felt like she lived with two children and she needed to stay on top of me all the time or nothing in our household would ever go right.

I don't think she's cheating, but I do think there's some serious head issues going on here. I would love to be able to communicate openly and deeply about tough subjects. Indeed, I do this frequently in my job and am considered good at addressing issues directly and yet compassionately. However, the one person I would love to communicate with most is the one person I can't. 

I've tried doing the "I feel...." thing with her. As in, "My feelings were hurt when you....." Her response? "Oh boo-hoo! I'm so sorry I hurt your precious little feelings!!!"

When I confronted her about the e-mails, I brought it up by saying, "I have some concerns about his intentions..." She said later I had accused her of cheating. 

Incidents like this make me avoid controversial subjects. I know it's wrong, but the risk of having her misinterpret what I'm trying to say is just too great. Communication would be great if I could actually communicate with her without starting World War III.


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## 2sick

hurtnohio said:


> I am completely unwelcome at family gatherings. Her mom and dad reluctantly invited me to come so they could get my wife and son there the whole day. When I wasn't invited, I requested that I at least get to spend Christmas morning with my son before my wife went tearing off to her mom and dad's with him. So now I'm invited, but not welcome, if you catch what I mean.
> 
> I try to talk to her about it. But things go downhill so quickly any more. She starts freaking out and calling me a snoop, saying outlandish things about me, and becoming so unreasonable that I need to walk away. Or when I do suck it up and try to listen to her, it becomes a one-way lecture instead of a conversation. As in she spends hours on end non-stop haranguing me about every little mistake I've ever made and wondering aloud why I hate her so much. When I so much as comment between her breaths that I don't hate her, she starts yelling at me for disrespecting her by interrupting.
> 
> Our counselor commented once when we were discussing something that she (my wife) seemed like a mother scolding a wayward child (me). My wife actually agreed! She was proud of the fact that she was acting like my mother, saying she felt like she lived with two children and she needed to stay on top of me all the time or nothing in our household would ever go right.
> 
> I don't think she's cheating, but I do think there's some serious head issues going on here. I would love to be able to communicate openly and deeply about tough subjects. Indeed, I do this frequently in my job and am considered good at addressing issues directly and yet compassionately. However, the one person I would love to communicate with most is the one person I can't.
> 
> I've tried doing the "I feel...." thing with her. As in, "My feelings were hurt when you....." Her response? "Oh boo-hoo! I'm so sorry I hurt your precious little feelings!!!"
> 
> When I confronted her about the e-mails, I brought it up by saying, "I have some concerns about his intentions..." She said later I had accused her of cheating.
> 
> Incidents like this make me avoid controversial subjects. I know it's wrong, but the risk of having her misinterpret what I'm trying to say is just too great. Communication would be great if I could actually communicate with her without starting World War III.


Wow!!! That really sucks! I'm so sorry to hear about your situation with her family.  Just rejoice in having your son for the WHOLE day and blow off everyone else...as much as you can...gotta love the in-laws!!!!!! 

Hey, on the bright side she still going to counseling with you!!! Be strong and keep the faith (for at least you and your son)!!! Prayers are with you!


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## hurtnohio

It was the same story at Thanksgiving. Her dad talked to me a total of three times that day. Not even a hi or goodbye. They were loving, tender moments like: "Don't let him drink his juice in that room or he'll mess the carpet up." I made it through by playing with my son and basically having a positive attitude but otherwise keeping to myself. Not exactly a Norman Rockwell holiday, but you do what you can to get by.


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## hurtnohio

I'll admit I'm a little bit depressed tonight. Christmas used to be a special time for us. Since we got married around Christmas time and my birthday is the first week of the new year, the three weeks between our anniversary and my birthday were like one big long holiday. She used to have so much fun with Christmas, and we'd act like little kids. Getting each other up before the crack of dawn even before we had our son. But it's not the same this year. How do you put on a happy face and act joyful for your son when inside you feel so dead? I don't want to steal the joy that he's discovering about Christmas, but I just feel so emotionally empty this year. In my heart as a Christian, I appreciate what the birth of Jesus really means. But I miss the family connections that used to be a part of this time of year. I miss having a friend and lover as well as a wife. I'm holding it together in front of her because I don't want to appear weak, but I'm not feeling strong right now.


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## COguy

Hang in there buddy. I know your pain, you'll get through this.


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## hurtnohio

Christmas wasn't as painful as expected. Everyone seemed a little more festive than normal. I didn't even get scolded by her family and a couple of people actually initiated conversation with me.

Wouldn't exactly call it a happy family gathering, but it wasn't quite as chilly as I expected it either. Maybe that's the key. If you expect the worse, you might be pleasantly surprised.

Not exactly a very victorious way of living, though.


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## anx

I wanted to write again and give you some encouragement. Do what's right even when your wife is acting like a terrible spouse and treating you like garbage. It will pay off and it does matter. However, you won't see the effect for months or years depending. 

I know it seems hopeless and that nothing you do matters. It does matter. She is too hurt and messed up right now to respond in a healthy way. She is overwhelmed. That can and will change, but only with time and by herself. Talking about issues right now is almost worthless. You would probably be better waiting if you can. 

It's going to be hard for a long time. Invest in the future of your marriage. Two years from now when things could be great what you did now will matter. In the mean time, become the best spouse, father, Christian you can be and wait as patiently as possible(take it day by day) for her head to straighten out.

Never stop doing what's right and good. Do it because it's right. 

Also, if you haven't read the book codependant no more, you probably should. 

Blessings


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## hurtnohio

Thanks for the encouragement.


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## hurtnohio

I just need to vent tonight. I am so frustrated I can't think straight. I know I complain a lot, so please bear with me. This is a "same stuff, different day" rant, so if I'm being too whiny, please disregard this post. 

I took a few vacation days this week to maximize the home time with the holidays. Our 3-year old son has insisted on sleeping with his mattress on the floor lately (who can fathom a 3-year old's logic?), so we decided to take his bed apart and store it away for now so he'll at least have more floor space in his room. I decided to use a new nut-driver set that she got me for Christmas. 

So I started taking the bed apart. One of the slats fell on top of the plastic case that the nut drive set came in and cracked it (the case). It's one of those flimsy cases they sell tools in these days; you know, it looks like it's meant to be a carrying case, but the plastic is paper thin so it's not really all that robust. So anyway, I'm using my new tools and taking the bed apart, but the carrying case is now cracked.

Then, when I had everything taken apart, I duct tape a couple of the boards to each other. In retrospect, that wasn't the smartest move because I know duct tape isn't great on painted surfaces. 

My wife went ballistic on me. She started screaming at me at the top of her lungs about "What were you thinking using duct tape on a painted surface? Why don't you just leave this alone and let me do it if you can't do it right?" and on and on and on.

Then, just when I thought that tirade was over, she discovered the cracked carrying case for the nut driver set and started screaming all over again, in the "You never appreciate anything I ever buy for you, did you intentionally want to destroy my new gift to you because you hate me...." vein. I tried to explain to her that the nut driver set itself was OK, that it was just the flimsy plastic case that broke, she launched into orbit again saying I thought her gift was "flimsy."

She sent me out this morning to get breakfast at a local diner. They didn't get her hash browns crispy enough. I did a quick once-over of the order before I walked out the door, but I'll admit I didn't check the hash browns for crispiness. She had a few choice words to say about the fact that I didn't make sure her potatoes were crispy enough. 

She constantly uses things like food as a test of whether I care enough about her to get it right. If I don't check the carry-out order closely enough, or if I forget a side, or if I don't cook her food right, she lets me know about it. She takes it as an insult that I didn't care enough to make sure it was done right. I don't think there's been a meal in the past two years that I've done to her satisfaction. One poster when I mentioned this in another forum told me that if I were a wife married to a husband who always complained about how his food was cooked, they'd be advising me to move into an abused woman's shelter. Interesting perspective, to say the least. 

At one point this week, she decided to make a big deal about who had flipped the thermostat from heat to A/C (or was it A/C to heat? Ohio has had some real up and down weather this month). At one point she actually said, "Don't tell me you have so few brain cells that you don't know the difference between heat and air conditioning." In that case, I told her I refused to continue a conversation when my intelligence was being mockingly questioned, and I walked away.

I was also amused at her constant questioning me about some texting I was doing back and forth with my boss. My job is the kind of job that I'm never really away from, and my boss had a few loose ends he needed my help tying up. Nothing huge really, but I did occasionally answer an e-mail or text on my Blackberry. Every time I did so, she was all full of questions; "Who are you talking to now? What's wrong? Why can't they leave you alone? Is there a problem? Are you in trouble?" I thought it was rather humorous, since she has cut me off from seeing any of her e-mails ever since I confronted her about the e-mails she was getting from the XBIL. I wanted to tell her she gave up any right to know about my electronic communications when she cut me off from seeing hers. But I decided not to go down that road. Maybe I should have. I don't know sometimes the best way to handle these things.

In the entire week I've spent at home, I've been insulted, ridiculed or harangued on a daily basis over some stupidity. And I'll admit, I have done some dumb things (the duct tape being one of them). But isn't marriage supposed to be a place where even your dumb mistakes are pointed out to you in a loving tone? A "I know you're trying to help, but I don't think duct tape in this application is a good choice," in a normal voice would have made me feel much better than "What are you thinking?" screamed at the top of her lungs.

She told me the other night that she had just accepted the fact that we were going to be miserable but she was committed to staying together for our son. I asked her is she didn't think maybe God had higher plans for us than mutual misery. She told me she didn't think I was in any place to talk about God (she thinks I'm far removed from God or else I would be a better husband).

The past two weeks, she has berated me daily for some failing or another. In the entire time I've taken off for the holidays, she hasn't thanked me or complimented me for a single thing (other than the anniversary card I gave her on that day she refused to acknowledge). Am I really such a screw-up that I didn't do a single thing right in the last 2 weeks? Is it too much to ask that I occasionally be recognized for getting something - ANYTHING - right?

I'm really sorry I took the time off work. If I wanted to get yelled at non-stop, at least I could be getting paid for it.

I apologize if I seem to just be always complaining. I try to limit the negativity I dump on my face-to-face friends, but I really need to get this stuff off my chest occasionally.


----------



## COguy

A lot of the stuff you said I could take word for word from my marriage. I know how you feel.

No it is not normal for your conversations to all turn sour and bitter. Disagreements are OK, disrespect is not.

Just know you're a good husband, and that you're working on your marriage. That alone should be enough for her to treat you respectfully.

I'll say it again just because your posts remind me so much of my situation, your wife is probably having an EA if not more. If she didn't have anything to hide she'd let you see the emails. Her lack of wanting to talk about God is because she's feeling guilty. My wife went into a tirade when I told her I was praying for her one time, "Don't you DARE talk about God to me, you have no right!!"

A hurting wife would take your extra effort and find some good in it, she's antagonistic to you about everything. It shows she's trying to justify that you aren't the right one. She's looking for excuses to kick you out or leave.

The coparenting thing isn't a good sign either. That's what my wife suggested when she realized I wasn't going to put up with the hostility any longer. It means she doesn't want to put anything into the relationship but she wants the security of your paycheck and comfort of your home.

As I'd give anyone else the same advice, she's using you for your wallet now. Don't allow yourself to be put in that situation. For starters, you deserve the right to live with someone who is committed to you and wants their marriage to work. Second, it is a horrible situation to put your son in. You in essence, are modeling to him how his future wife should treat him.

The "let's stay together for the kids" is a lie that selfish spouses say to have their cake and eat it too. If she wants to stay with you, she needs to be committed to a healthy, positive, loving relationship with you. If she can't take active steps towards that, she needs to go. Do not move out either, she is the one that doesn't want to work on your marriage, she should have to leave.

"I apologize if I seem to just be always complaining. I try to limit the negativity I dump on my face-to-face friends, but I really need to get this stuff off my chest occasionally."

You're never complaining here. I remember staying up all hours of the night crying, just wishing I had someone to talk to. That's what we're here for. What you're going through (and probably about to go through), is some of the hardest stuff you can deal with. The one who committed their life to you is no longer interested. That kind of rejection is a hard pill to swallow.


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## Shaggy

One thing - one the tool box breaking. You messed up by not taking responsibility for the accident that broke it.

Yeah it was a stupid accident, but you were the guy in charge, so accidents that happened really are your fault. You could have done things different than you did and it would have turned out different.

For things like that next time - just up front accept the responsibility instead of shifting the blame to it being flimsy etc.

Try "Yeah, I sat it the wrong spot and I dropped a rail on it and it broke. I'm upset that I did that since it was a nice gift and good carry case too."


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> Our marriage counselor even suggested (privately) that I read "No More Walking on Eggshells," which is about Borderline Personality Disorder.


Hurt, this is the fifth time someone suggested you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells, _the #1 best selling BPD book targeted to the non-BPD spouses.I suggested you read it last July 23 in your "She Doesn't Trust Me" thread. I suggested it three more times on August 16, 21, and 22 in that same thread. Perhaps God is trying to send you a message.


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## hurtnohio

Uptown said:


> Hurt, this is the fifth time someone suggested you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells, _the #1 best selling BPD book targeted to the non-BPD spouses.I suggested you read it last July 23 in your "She Doesn't Trust Me" thread. I suggested it three more times on August 16, 21, and 22 in that same thread. Perhaps God is trying to send you a message.


I've read it and am reading it again. So I'm not ignoring you.


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> Hurt, this is the fifth time someone suggested you read _Stop Walking on Eggshells, _the #1 best selling BPD book targeted to the non-BPD spouses.I suggested you read it last July 23 in your "She Doesn't Trust Me" thread. I suggested it three more times on August 16, 21, and 22 in that same thread. Perhaps God is trying to send you a message.


I'm pretty sure I've told him something along the same lines. I recognize a LOT of my behavior in his wife's.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

You are failing sh*t tests left and right.


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## hurtnohio

Dadof3 said:


> You are failing sh*t tests left and right.


I don't even have a clue what this means.


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## Dadof3

hurtnohio said:


> I don't even have a clue what this means.


Look up the threads about fitness tests in the men's club area. That's what sh*t tests are. 

They are testing your manhood.


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## hurtnohio

pidge70 said:


> I'm pretty sure I've told him something along the same lines. I recognize a LOT of my behavior in his wife's.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I've read the book. I'm reading it again. And about the time I have an "aha" moment and post my insight here, someone comes along and says, "Wait a minute. Until you have an official diagnosis, you can't know for sure that BPD is what you're dealing with...." 

Also, I don't want to blame my wife for everything. I am a work in progress as well. For example, the tool kit thing. I could have taken responsibility for it (and I did today, not that my wife cared), but I was already in defensive mode.

It's just that the daily grind wears me down. I'll read Stop Walking on Eggshells, get some new insight, and put it into practice for a couple of months. But after the day in and day out grind of being told I'm wrong in everything I do, my resolve weakens and I backpedal. Hence, I'm reading the book again. And posting here again. 

It's not that I'm not trying. It's just that even when I'm standing up for myself, I get tired after a while.


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> About the time I have an "aha" moment and post my insight here, someone comes along and says, "Wait a minute. Until you have an official diagnosis, you can't know for sure that BPD is what you're dealing with...."


Having a recommendation from your MC to read the best selling BPD book (targeted to the spouses) is about as close as you likely will come to getting a formal BPD diagnosis from a therapist who is treating her or treating both of you. This is why I suggested that, to obtain a candid professional opinion, you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two -- _on your own._ Therapists are ethically bound to protect the sick client. It therefore is as foolish to rely on your W's therapist for advice during the marriage as it is to rely on her attorney's advice during the divorce.

When BPDers are high functioning, therapists are loath to tell the client -- much less her H -- the name of the disorder. Instead, the "diagnosis" will often be given as one of the side effects, e.g., PTSD, depression, or anxiety. One reason is that the social stigma for BPD is so awful that the high functioning clients usually terminate therapy immediately on hearing such a diagnosis. Another reason is that BPD takes so many years to treat that insurance companies usually refuse to cover BPD treatments or cover only a small portion of such costs. They claim (falsely) that BPD is untreatable. Yet, if the treatments are listed instead for "depression" or "anxiety," insurance will cover them.

A third reason is that telling a BPDer the name of her disorder can make her symptoms become worse, not better. That can happen because, having only a fragile sense of who she is, a BPDer is constantly searching for a strong identity. Hence, when that identity is provided in the form of a BPD diagnosis, a BPDer who had been exhibiting 5 strong traits may suddenly start showing 8 or 9 traits.

Finally, I note that strong BPD traits can undermine your marriage and make your life miserable even when they fall well short of the diagnostic level. You will be almost as miserable living with a person who satisfies only 80% or 90% of the diagnostic criteria as with a person satisfying 100%. Under the current diagnostic manual, however, anyone failing to meet 100% is considered to "not have BPD." 

Of course, that binary approach (i.e., yes or no) to PD diagnosis is ludicrous because BPD traits are not a disease that you have or don't have. Rather, they are simply a set of behavioral symptoms that vary in strength from person to person. As a result, this diagnostic methodology has been an embarrassment to the APA for over 30 years. It therefore is being gutted and replaced by a graduated approach when the new diagnostic manual is released next year.


> It's not that I'm not trying. It's just that even when I'm standing up for myself, I get tired after a while.


If your W has strong BPD traits, your reading the book will only help a little if you remain living with her. Granted, it will teach you how to do more validation, which is very important to her. And it will teach you that, despite what she is claiming, you are not going crazy. 

But you still will be left with trying to live with a woman who is unable to regulate her emotions, unable to appreciate your sacrifices, unable to trust, and unable to love you in a mature way. If she has strong traits and is untreated, she likely has the emotional development of a four year old. So, yes, no matter how perfect you behave, you are going to get tired. You will get tired _a lot_. It is exhausting to live with a BPDer. I know because I did it for 15 years myself.

The reason I suggested you read the book is to be able to spot the classic traits of BPD. At issue is whether -- with this new-found knowledge -- you now realize that you were seeing such traits all through your marriage, starting after the honeymoon period ended. This is an important issue because BPD traits do not lie hidden for 15 years and then suddenly appear. Hence, if you've seen such dysfunctional behavior only during the last year or two, it is extremely unlikely your W has a strong pattern of BPD traits.


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## COguy

Not to hijack the thread, but Uptown, what was your result? Did you leave after 15 years or are you still married? Did it ever improve?

How is it treated?


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## Uptown

COguy said:


> Uptown, what was your result? Did you leave after 15 years or are you still married?


COguy, for partners with strong personal boundaries, the usual outcome is that they will enjoy the passionate sex and adoration for 3 to 6 months until the BPDer's infatuation evaporates. Then that nonBPD partner will spend perhaps an additional 12 months trying to restore the wonderful person they saw at the beginning. Then they bail.

For caregivers like Hurt and me, however, we hang on indefinitely. The notion of walking away from a sicked loved one is anathema to us, even though the marriage is harmful to both partners. So we typically hold on -- mistakenly thinking we can fix things if we only figure out what we are doing wrong -- until the BPDer abandons us, which I understand typically happens at about 12-15 years. The BPDer spouse grows increasingly resentful each year that we are unable to make her happy or fix that emptiness she has inside. Also, her great fear of abandonment may increase as she sees her body aging. Hence, it is not surprising that my W left me after 15 years. 

By "left me," I mean she had me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her so, while I was in jail, she could obtain a restraining order barring me from my own home. That allowed her to live rent free for the 18 months it takes to get a divorce in this State. The "brutalization" took the form of me pushing her away from my bedroom door, which she was in the process of trying to destroy -- while her sister and our grand daughter were sitting only 20 feet away in the next bedroom. 

This temper tantrum, wherein she chased me from room to room until I retreated behind the bedroom door, arose only because I refused to drive her and the sister and grand daughter to the beach that day. In this State, however, merely shoving someone is a misdemenor so the cops will haul you into jail and let the judge figure out what to do with it.


> Did it ever improve?


No, I spent a small fortune on weekly visits to many psychologists for 15 years -- all to no avail. During the first half of my marriage, I figured things would have to get worse before getting better because therapy was putting my W in touch with painful feelings of being violated by her father. During the last half, I deceived myself into thinking that she seemed to be improving a little. 

But how could I possibly know that improvement was occurring? With an emotionally unstable woman, she is alternately getting worse and getting better nearly every two weeks. So it is easy to become over-optimistic during the good times.

So I ended up spending over $200,000 taking my wife to six different psychologists and 2 MCs. None of them told me she had BPD. Never mind that she strongly exhibited all nine BPD traits and had been abused and sexually molested for years by her dad. Never mind that BPD books like _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ read like a biography of her life.

Indeed, the psych that we used for the last five years refused to give me a diagnosis, always claiming that labels were not useful. At the very last meeting when I was very insistent, she grudgingly conceded that my exW suffers from a "thought disorder," which of course is what BPD is. This is why I encourage all nonBPD partners in such relationships to read about the traits and to consult their own therapist who is not treating the BPDer spouse.


> How is it treated?


The person on this forum who seems to know the most about BPD treatments is Pidge. I therefore am hopeful she will respond to your question, COguy. Although excellent treatment programs are available, it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to take advantage of such programs. Moreover, because BPDers are unable to trust other people, it is rare for a BPDer to be able to trust the therapist who is trying to guide her. Pidge is one of those rare individuals.

I cannot tell you much about successful treatments because, as I said, my exW never really improved. I have read that Dialectical Behavior Therapy is very useful if the BPDer is strongly committed to learning how to regulate her emotions, how to intellectually challenge the intense feelings, and how to rely less heavily on black-white thinking.


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## hurtnohio

You're not exactly painting a hopeful picture here. Guess that's the harsh reality of the situation.

I do realize that I am part of the problem. There are times that I am not as validating as I should be. My problem is that there have been times in the past when she has been so unreasonable, that as soon as I detect that "tone" in her voice, I begin to get defensive. Since she's accused me of mental abuse for merely disagreeing with her, I get very edgy any time I hear that tone. So even when she has a valid point to make (and she often does), the way she presents it can put me on edge because I'm always waiting for the next shoe to drop.

The night I realized we had a full-blown problem was the night she demanded to know when I had ever sacrificed for her. That question alone was absurd enough, but I was stupid enough to engage. When I did come up with examples (stupid, stupid, stupid!) she would one by one belittle them and make them seem to be no big deal. That night was the night my perception of what I was dealing with changed forever.

So I will own up to the fact that some of the issues are mine. I don't want to sound self-serving here, but when a spouse's unreasonable behavior reaches a certain level of absurdity, I think it's at least understandable when I enter defensive mode over mere vocal inflections. My New Year's plan is to become, not offensive, but more assertive. To take control of unreasonable behavior and refuse to become defensive.

Pray for me. Something tells me 2012 is going to be a decisive year for us.


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## Uptown

Hurt, I will pray for both of you. I wish the best for you and your W during this new year.


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## anx

I sent you a PM. I really do hope 2012 goes well. Don't give up.


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## Noel1987

yeah i agree with Shaggy there's no divorce in Christian marriage and majority living happily... try to talk on this issue again


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## Shaggy

Noel1987 said:


> yeah i agree with Shaggy there's no divorce in Christian marriage and majority living happily... try to talk on this issue again


Wait, I never said there's no divorce. There certainly is if the spouse cheats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio

Another stellar weekend of bad communication. My wife hurt her wrist and our 3-year old son said he wanted a new mommy. When we asked what he meant, he said he wanted a mommy that didn't get hurt. I think what he was trying to say was that he's starting to pick up on her frequent aches and pains from the fibromyalgia and in his awkward way was saying he wished it could stop. But I could tell it at least stung her a little bit.

After bed time, I asked her if she wanted to talk about it. She asked me if he had heard anything about looking for a new mommy from me. I told her absolutely not. I did say we should talk about awkward statements that he's going to make from time to time as he gets older so we can present a united response. I told her we needed to walk a fine line between teaching him to respect other people's feelings on the one hand, and yet making sure he feels he can talk to us about anything that's bothering him on the other hand. She launched into a tirade about how I was accusing her of mishandling the situation, etc.

I think I did better this time. I calmly stood my ground, and told her that I was not accusing, but only trying to converse. She asked me to give her the bottom line rule. "What are you trying to get from me here?" she kept saying. I said I had no agenda other than to discuss his awkward statement and make sure we responded appropriately. Which then made her again defend how she had handled it, etc, etc. Then she actually called me a dictator! She said I was trying to impose my way of handling things on her! 

I told her that if she couldn't see the difference between a calm, reasoned discussion on child rearing to a dictatorship, then the conversation was over.

She has this annoying method of arguing that I've never been able to figure out. She'll always go straight for some kind of bottom line solution. "Just tell me the rules you want out of me...." or "What is it you want out of this conversation?...." I'll tell her my concerns. Then she'll repeatedly keep asking what my real agenda is. When I tell her, she'll say "That's stupid. You've got to have some deeper agenda here. What is it?" It's like some kind of demented "Who's on First" routine where I give her an honest answer, she dismisses it, and then demands that I tell her what I'm really thinking. I've seen this go on for hours. After hours of this kind of madness, if she still hasn't gotten an answer that matches her expectation of what she thought I was going to talk about, she then accuses me of trying to pick a fight just to make her miserable. She won't accept my honest answers as to whatever concerns I had that caused the argument in the first place, so she just assumes I must have brought them up just to start a fight.

I'm not completely inexperienced at dealing with difficult people. I'm a mid-level manager in a highly unionized environment, so I've had my share of uncomfortable conversations with people at work. I've been complimented by my boss on handling potentially explosive labor-management disagreements. 

I'm not trying to brag. I say all that to say that I'm not exactly an expert on human behavior, but I get along OK in most areas. Except at home. When my wife starts in with the "So what is it you're really trying to accomplish here...." line of crap, I am at a total loss to understand it. I have learned that when she goes there, it's best to shut the conversation down and walk away. But that doesn't solve anything.

Has anyone else here ever experienced such an unreasonable line of questioning during conversations with anyone (spouses or not)? I told her quite candidly last night that I felt I was under a courtroom cross-examination instead of a conversation about child-rearing. She honestly had no idea what I meant. In her mind, she thinks she's being well-intentioned and completely rational. But I can literally tell you she has scolded me non-stop for at least 20 minutes at a clip ( I watched the clock), barely taking a breath, and then has the audacity to call me a dictator!

Is repeatedly asking "What do you really mean?" a sign of borderline personality disorder, or some other pathology? I can literally say that I've never met anyone else in my life who can twist an argument as adroitly as she can, the whole time honestly believing themselves to be the victim.

At least now, instead of just watching the clock, I have the assertiveness to excuse myself and walk away. It's useless to reason with her, because she doesn't see anything at all wrong with her approach.

Frustrating!


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## Unhappy2011

^^Perhaps she is projecting her own use of hidden agendas on you.

She does it, therefore she thinks you must do it also.


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## COguy

I'd say if both Pidge and Uptown thinks she's got the signs, and you read the book and think she has the signs, you should treat the situation as if she has it. Sounds like you're dealing with someone with a PD. There's a lot of resources online for it: support groups, forums, etc.

I'm sorry you're going through all this. Hope it gets easier for you.


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## anx

There really is no point in fighting like that. If it gets that bad, walk out far sooner. After 3 strait minutes of her talking,being disrespectful, and not getting anywhere I would have left. Zero good can come from that. When she is yelling, she is only reinforcing her own bad fighting habits and thoughts about you. You are doing the right thing in keeping your calm. It will matter, but just not now or a few months. Do many people give up because they see no change. Being very calm and fair and good in a fight teaches the other person how to treat you, but old habits stay long and die hard. 

You can do this and keep it up. Keep reading and learning. 

How is counseling going? I thought you guys were in it? This should be very much talked about in there and killed now.


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> She has this annoying method of arguing that I've never been able to figure out.... she'll repeatedly keep asking what my real agenda is. When I tell her, she'll say "That's stupid. You've got to have some deeper agenda here. What is it?"


Hurt, if your W has strong BPD traits -- as Pidge and I suspect -- she grew up believing that everyone has a hidden agenda. That's the way a person thinks when their ability to trust was completely destroyed at the age of 3 or 4.

Also keep in mind that, if she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally unstable that she has never been able to trust HERSELF -- not knowing from day to day what she will really want, or feel like, a week from now. (You likely have bought her many things that she was thrilled with for two weeks and then never used again.) Because she cannot trust herself, she has no idea as to how she can start trusting others.

This is why strong BPD traits are said to constitute a "thought disorder." They distort her perceptions of your motivations and intentions. This makes her very suspicious and unwilling to take your explanations at face value. She therefore is often looking for your hidden agenda.

Finally, because BPDers are so fearful of abandonment, they are extremely controlling of every aspect of a loved one's life. Significantly, it is far easier to control and manipulate a spouse when your agenda is kept hidden. This tendency, together with a BPDer's heavy reliance on projection to protect her fragile ego, is why she will often be convinced that YOU are the one who is scheming and plotting with a hidden agenda.


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## hurtnohio

Uptown said:


> Hurt, if your W has strong BPD traits -- as Pidge and I suspect -- she grew up believing that everyone has a hidden agenda. That's the way a person thinks when their ability to trust was completely destroyed at the age of 3 or 4.
> 
> Also keep in mind that, if she is a BPDer, she is so emotionally unstable that she has never been able to trust HERSELF -- not knowing from day to day what she will really want, or feel like, a week from now. (You likely have bought her many things that she was thrilled with for two weeks and then never used again.) Because she cannot trust herself, she has no idea as to how she can start trusting others.
> 
> This is why strong BPD traits are said to constitute a "thought disorder." They distort her perceptions of your motivations and intentions. This makes her very suspicious and unwilling to take your explanations at face value. She therefore is often looking for your hidden agenda.
> 
> Finally, because BPDers are so fearful of abandonment, they are extremely controlling of every aspect of a loved one's life. Significantly, it is far easier to control and manipulate a spouse when your agenda is kept hidden. This tendency, together with a BPDer's heavy reliance on projection to protect her fragile ego, is why she will often be convinced that YOU are the one who is scheming and plotting with a hidden agenda.


Kinda what I thought might be going on.

There's certainly a family history of this kind of stuff. I've watched her parents hang up the phone after talking to some relative and spend the next 2 hours debating every word and pause of the conversation to try to decipher what the other person "really" meant. Sometimes I wanted to scream "Why don't you people just say what you mean and mean what you say?" It was really maddening to watch.

The worst offender was her abusive (and ultimately murderous) uncle. For about a year before he killed his wife, he kept saying things like, "She's just getting so forgetful. I hope this isn't an early sign of Alzheimer's....." She was 44 at the time. Then one day, he dropped a comment about, "We've both decided that if either one of us gets Alzheimer's we won't allow the other one to suffer...." After she ended up dead with a bullet through her eye socket - literally - we all realized he had been trying to cook up some type of "mercy killing" defense. Fortunately, the justice system saw right through that masquerade, but it's a clear example of the agendas that are rampant among the people she grew up with. Guess it's natural for her to project that kind of stuff onto me.

Truth be told, I'm not smart enough to have a hidden agenda. It just takes too much mental work to try to be that manipulative.


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## anx

At least don't take it personally. She has a messed up past and learned this horrible behavior. 

Also, she really is a broken woman and try to remember that. She didn't ask to grow up with this garbage and will need someone strong to get past it. 

Learn as much as you can about this and don't play into the stupid games and irrational thoughts.


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> Truth be told, I'm not smart enough to have a hidden agenda.


No, truth be told, you are _too trusting_ to ever need a hidden agenda.


> It just takes too much mental work to try to be that manipulative.


Yes, that's why BPDers -- though they try very hard to be manipulative -- are usually terrible at it. Although they typically are very intelligent, they are far too reactive to the intense feelings of the moment. To be successful, manipulation requires careful preparation and flawless execution. This is why you can usually see a BPDer's hidden agenda from a mile away.


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## pidge70

Uptown said:


> No, truth be told, you are _too trusting_ to ever need a hidden agenda.Yes, that's why BPDers -- though they try very hard to be manipulative -- are usually terrible at it. Although they typically are very intelligent, they are far too reactive to the intense feelings of the moment. To be successful, manipulation requires careful preparation and flawless execution. This is why you can usually see a BPDer's hidden agenda from a mile away.


Unfortunately there are always exceptions to the rules. Some of us are VERY good at manipulation. Yet another trait of mine that I am most certainly NOT proud of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amyrae

hurtnohio said:


> I've posted in other parts of this forum, but I need the perspective of other believers. I respect everyone on this forum, but I want to discuss things with people who share the same spiritual background I do. I'm sorry if I'm going over old material again, and I'm sorry this is so long.
> 
> My wife and I are both protestant Christians. We saved ourselves for marriage, but our honeymoon was a disaster. She had been so traumatized by her parents' negative views of sex that she couldn't open up and be sexual with me. In fact, we ended up going to a sex therapist. It was almost a year into our marriage before we could actually enjoy sex, without it being painful for her. Sadly, that sort of set the precedent for the rest of our marriage. It's an exceptionally hot time for us if we have sex a couple of times every 6 weeks. As a man with what I would consider "normal" sex urges, that never seems to be enough. Sometimes I've asked God, "Why did I wait for THIS?"
> 
> For many years, we thought we couldn't have children. After 15 years, God blessed us with our son. He's been the joy of our lives.
> 
> My wife also has been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. For a while, her symptoms were well controlled by taking Cymbalta. After about 3 years, the Cymbalta began losing its effectiveness and we eventually discontinued treatment. About that same time, her parents recommended she see a "naturopathic" doctor who guaranteed she could cure fibro. But she also preached at us about the evils of vaccines for our son (which I am a big believer in). I had some deep misgivings about this naturopath, and asked my wife to not make any decisions about whether we would go to her until I had prayed and felt more clear about it. I believe this was the beginning of some deep resentment. My wife felt that I wasn't taking her pain seriously enough because I wasn't enthusiastically pursuing every possible avenue for healing. This caused us a lot of heartburn. Finally, we did travel halfway across the country to see this naturopath. We ended up spending over $1500 on treatments and supplements, but there was no improvement.
> 
> Around this same time, my wife started complaining that I didn't help out enough around the house. Now I have always done about half the cooking, dishwashing and nearly all the laundry. I'm not the neatest person in the world, but I at least make sure the dishes are clean and the laundry is pressed. I try to do more, but she has forbidden me to do her laundry because I always put things in the wrong drawers and whatnot.
> 
> One night, she met me at the door and said things needed to change. She needed me to do more. When I told her I was doing the best I could, she said she didn't believe that I was or else our house would be in better shape. At one point, she even said if I didn't improve, we might as well split up.
> 
> With both of us being conservative Christians, one of the things we had always agreed on was that we would never even mention the possibility of divorce (except for infidelity or abuse). That night was possibly the lowest point of our marriage. I have never admitted this to anyone, but the thought of suicide actually entered my mind that night. It was no more than a thought, and thankfully God helped me fight my way past that thought, but I was floored.
> 
> Nevertheless, I tried. But I somehow I never could please her. I could clean the diaper pail, wash a load of laundry and premix the formula bottle for the next day. But if I forgot to wipe the tablecloth off after dinner, I would get scolded. Usually with great sarcasm.
> 
> Somewhere in all this, her uncle murdered his wife in a heinous act of domestic violence. Nearly everyone in the family had an anecdote to tell about all the red flags that had led up to this act; consequently, many family members were called to testify against him. As it turned out, he pled out at the last minute and there was no trial. During this time of turmoil, my wife and I got marginally closer, possibly because we had a common crusade to engage in. Once the uncle went to prison, it seemed to me that our unity eroded.
> 
> She started blaming me for things that to me seem silly. One night we were on a trip and as I was about to go to bed, she asked me to close the bedroom window before I went to sleep. But I got into a conversation with my dad, she ended up going to bed before me, and I figured she had done it. It ended up turning cold overnight, and our son - who was also in the room - and I caught a cold. All the next week, she was fuming at me for being so irresponsible as to make our son sick. Every time he coughed or just felt pathetic, she scolded me again for not closing that window.
> 
> As he was learning to crawl, he would frequently crawl behind my feet without me knowing it. I sometimes would back up and trip over him. No serious injuries ever occurred, but it would frequently scare him and make him cry. She would then scold me and tell me I didn't care enough about him.
> 
> We also began arguing about discipline. I'll admit that there were a couple of times that I disciplined him for issues that I took to be willful defiance, but which in reality were probably just a toddler being a toddler. I have never been abusive in my discipline, but I admit there have been times I was probably unfair. My dad was strong, silent type so I'm having to figure out how to be a Christian dad as I go along. But in my wife's mind, she sees being unfair and abusive as one and the same. Before long, she's telling family members I'm abusive.
> 
> She's accused me of being verbally abusive to her. I've never called her names, ever. I do raise my voice on occasion when we're in a heated argument and she's already raised her voice to me. On the other hand, she's called me things like, "Bi-polar, arrogant, not a real man, crazy, lazy, and hateful." I once told her something she had done hurt my feelings, and she sarcastically said "Oh, boo-hoo-hoo about your precious little feelings." One day when I wasn't quick enough to open the car door for her, she stood stamping her foot in our driveway yelling, "Has it occurred to you that I'm sick?!?!?"
> 
> She's had a hard time accepting limitations on what she can do physically as a result of her condition. She'll try to prove that she can still do things like cut the grass on a 100-degree heat index day. She'll then be practically bedridden for the next several days. So occasionally, I feel the need to firmly remind her that she needs to take it easy. She tells her family members that I'm being verbally abusive by telling her she can't do anything. Sometimes, the way I hear our conversations characterized, I almost wonder if she's talking about the same event! Where my intentions were to help her remember not to hurt herself, she tells everyone that I was out to demoralize and belittle her.
> 
> She read somewhere on the Internet that dry climates can help fibromyalgia. Now she is all excited about moving to Arizona, Utah or Idaho. The problem is, I don't have a job in Arizona, Utah or Idaho, and I'm the sole provider. Unfortunately, I'm in an industry where it's not easy to drop everything and change employers. I want to go where God wants us to go, but I just don't feel that quitting my job and moving to Idaho is the best move for us right now. She accuses me of putting money before her health.
> 
> Recently, some things she has said made me think she was again contemplating divorce. In desperation, I checked her e-mail since I knew if she was planning that, she would probably e-mail her family about it. What I found was a bunch of e-mails between her and her twin sister's ex-husband. It's a long and dysfunctional story, but her sister has been ostracized by the family, but the ex-husband has remained close. The e-mails were very one-sided, but disturbing. He would send things like "You and (our son) have a piece of my heart." Or "Hey sweetie, how's your day going?" When we took our son to our local fire department's open house, I found an e-mail from him saying, "I wish it were me taking you two to the fire house." He offered to take some time off work and drive down some day when I was out of town and take the two of them out for ice cream. He sent her a "happy sweetest day" e-mail and said, "What kind of brownie points do I get? I know what I have in mind, but I'll see what you come up with."
> 
> She never responded inappropriately, but she never shut him down either. Worst of all, she never told me about these e-mails. When I asked her about them, she said the thought of having an affair with him was "gross" and that he was like a brother, no more. I said I suspected he had a different view of things. She told me I had no right to spy on her and she promptly changed her e-mail address so I couldn't see anything else. Then she forwarded me an e-mail from him that basically was taunting me through an e-mail to her. So rather than taking my concerns seriously, she immediately ran to him and told him what I had done and then they both taunted me.
> 
> Now I really don't think she's had an affair with him. But I'm disturbed at how she responded to my concerns.
> 
> She's kicked me out of our bedroom, and insisted that I not sleep in the master room, even when she's out of town. She's declared it her "sanctuary," her one chance to get away from me and have peace. We haven't had sex since February. She says she's resigned herself to being my roommate and staying together even in misery for our son's sake. She's even considering quitting our Christian counselor because she feels like all the sessions are "bash the wife" night.
> 
> I'm writing because I'm truly hurting. I have become stronger and more certain of myself through all this. I used to internalize her complaints, but I've now realized that the issues are hers and hers alone. I'm not claiming to be a perfect husband or father - far from it. But I love them both and want to do what's best. I'm a bit dense at times and don't always know the right things to say, but my heart is always in the right place. (Her response is that it doesn't matter what my intent was, the result is that I did something wrong, so my intentions are irrelevant. She's actually said that with a straight face more than once!)
> 
> So, fellow believers, is there hope? In my humanity, I've got to admit that I miss being close to her. I miss sex. I want someone to love. I had hoped it would be her. Divorce is not an option, so I can't fall in love with someone else. But I had hoped God had so much more in store for us than just a bland sense of misery for the sake of our vows.
> 
> There are many on this forum who have told me it's time to cut her loose. If it were not for my Christian upbringing in the belief that divorce is a sin unless there's adultery or abuse, I might agree. On the other hand, I don't want to continue with things like they are.
> 
> I miss having a real marriage. I feel as if there's no hope; I can't move on, but what I have is just the illusion of a marriage. There is no emotional or physical intimacy. For now, the marriage is a farce. I really miss being able to talk to her about what's important to the both of us. Did I mention that I miss what little sex we used to have?
> 
> Does God care what I'm going through? Is there hope that this can ever change? How can two Christians who supposedly want to obey God end up like this?


I'm in the same moral dilemma as you, on the one hand...God hates divorce. On the other hand...if I stay, his abuse will push me toward another mental-nervous breakdown. [I'm manic-depressive, I had a SEVERE manic spell in 2007 after Kenny's abuse went too far. I recognize the signs...I'm right back on the brink of losing my sanity again]. At what point do we decide God's will for us is for us to *survive*??? I honestly feel I am dying a slow death here in this glass cage. I'm not able to have contact with other people. How can I possibly serve God this way? Is my staying in this marriage because God hates divorce going to bring about the best of all possible worlds? Not likely, as it is now. After 20 years of praying...at what point do I acquiesce to my own instincts of survival....AND my passionate desire to reach the lost for Christ?  I'm useless to the Lord, like "this". a r m 4 4 netins . net

How are you doing, and what is your predicament, as of late?


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## SweetSJ

All the incidents you have described are regrettable and horrifying set of behaviours to most readers but they are also important symptoms to something deeper. 

You are imprisoned by belief. Even if you wanted to leave and decided to leave, your religious belief in the marriage contract will leave you with feelings of guilt and shame.

Your wife is also imprisoned by belief. Her upbringing has left her with a deep shame surrounding sexuality. You are, unfortunately someone in her life that has expected a sexual relationship with her. If her shame is entrenched by an abusive background (which it sounds like the way you have described) and reinforced by her religious beliefs, she will always project blame and mistrust on to whoever is in her life in the role of husband/sexual partner. I really don’t think she is having an affair as others have mentioned. 

Are you strong enough to be her man? That is the message that I am hearing from all your accounts.

We are all pre programmed to avoid pain and seek pleasure. To your wife, sex is associated with shame and shame is the lowest vibrating emotion known to man. 
It is the closest emotion to death. In some cultures to be shamed by your family/tribe is a prescription to die. In Australian aboriginal culture if you have brought shame to your tribe the elder will point the bone at you. Pointing the bone begins the fatal process of autosuggestion. 

Blaming you for everything is a byproduct of her shame of sexuality. Your wife has been abused and is now abusing you. 
It will take a very strong inspirational person to help her reframe her ‘thought disorder’. While any shame is associated with sex, a person can never experience emotional and physical intimacy and beauty that lovemaking can bring. 

While your wife holds on to the beliefs causing shame around sexuality, she will never be able to trust sex or intimacy or the person seeking them from her. Trust is the foundation of a relationship. With out trust you have no relationship. 
The foundation of your relationship, trust and respect is not there. While there is criticism, contempt, blame and defensiveness in your household, it is damaging each other more and damaging your son. 

No matter how damaged your wife is or what disorders she may have, diagnosable or not, what is going on in your marriage is unacceptable. It is not the behaviour of a loving mother or wife. This ‘damage’ will be passed on to the next generation through your son. Can I say this any clearer. The behaviour you are describing is abusive to you and your son. Is this not breaking the sacred contract of marriage? 

You say you love her and your son. If you do love her and your son as you say, you need incredible strength to firstly protect your son from any more exposure to the abuse in your relationship. Secondly, the decision to honour your marriage contract means being there for your wife no matter what. Helping her see her damaging behaviour, helping her understand where it is coming from and helping her reframe the shame. 

That is going to take a lot of personal growth from you both. It all comes down to having the courage to examine your deepest beliefs.


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## hurtnohio

There's another aspect of all this that I haven't shared here yet. The layers of our issues seem to be more numerous than the layers of an onion. Here's another source of ongoing conflict:

She's convinced the entire economy and government are about to melt down soon. For my part, I believe that there is a distinct possibility that we are in for some tough times ahead, and that it pays to be prepared. We grow a garden and can the surplus. I have a generator in the garage. We have camping gear and the like. We're better prepared than a lot of people are. I just don't believe in becoming too obsessed about possible riots, societal breakdown and economic collapse. Do what you can reasonably do and then live your life.

Part of the reason she and her family wanted us all to move to Idaho was so we could build a survivalist compound. Not only does my job not permit me to drop everything and move across the country, but I also wasn't sure I wanted to live in a fallout shelter with her mom and dad far away in the mountains. So not only has she accused me of not caring about whether her fibromyalgia gets better, she also accuses me of not caring whether our son lives or dies because I'm not ready to head for the hills and prepare for an insurrection.

We were driving along one day talking about the upcoming deer hunting season where we live (I'm a hunter). She said she couldn't wait to buy a farm so I could hunt any time we needed food. I told her that even if we owned our own farm, I still couldn't hunt deer out of season. She became very upset with me. "You mean if we were starving to death, and we had land where there were plenty of deer, you wouldn't kill one out of season even if that meant our son went hungry?" And things kinda went downhill from there.

I mean really? She's getting mad at me over something like that? Yes, if everyone in the family was about to die of starvation, I guess I would consider poaching. But if the entire governmental - economic - societal structure breaks down, I think the game wardens themselves will probably be poaching to save their families. I was just having a normal conversation about hunting regulations as they exist today, and before long she's berating me because I'm not already planning for how I'll hunt when the apocalypse comes.

We had a similar argument this summer when gas prices were touching $4 a gallon. She was convinced that if they hit $4 a gallon, gas riots were going to break out. She asked me one night what price gas would have to reach before we loaded up and bugged out to her grandma's farm in southern Missouri. I told her if massive rioting ever did consume the country, hopping in a family car and driving 10 hours with a 3-year old and an adult with limited mobility was probably not the safest move we could make. She became very irate and said, "So what are you gonna do? Sit here and wait for the rioters to burn our house down and kill us all? I can't believe you would risk our son's life like that...." Again, she was angry with me for days over that. 

It's as if the real problems we have aren't bad enough. She also gets angry with me over my hypothetical responses to hypothetical problems.

I really want to make her feel that her opinions matter. I really do try to validate her. But she seems to think that unless I join her in conspiracy-land, I don't love her. Makes it a little hard to maintain a validating atmosphere.

I guess that's my biggest challenge. I want her to feel validated and important, and yet I don't want to enable what seems to me to be thinking that borders on irrational. That's a tough line to walk.


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## nicky1

did you discuss the love making in any detail before you were married, well done for waiting both of you, did you ask each other questions, talk flirty with each other,this would have created a sense of excitement and desire that will never die....but for now start to keep the commands of moses and lead your son in them, and if she follows you in them she will slowly get better, if she doesnt get another wife...


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> It's as if the real problems we have aren't bad enough. She also gets angry with me over my hypothetical responses to hypothetical problems. ... I really want to make her feel that her opinions matter. I really do try to validate her.


Hurt, as I discussed above, the primary belief that BPDers want validated -- on a daily basis -- is their false image of always being "the victim." That's why they often invent one scenario after another to "explain" why their spouse is "the perpetrator," i.e., the cause of all their problems. Hence, in the absence of a real problem to complain about, a BPDer will create imagined problems that portray her in that role of "victim."

As a perpetual victim, the BPDer feels she never has to step forward and take responsibility for any of her own actions (or inactions). Until she is willing to do that -- which likely will never happen -- she cannot heal because she will not confront her own issues.

As to her "getting angry" with you, keep in mind that you don't have to do a thing to create that anger. If your W is a BPDer, she has been carrying intense anger and shame inside since early childhood. Hence, you only have to say some trivial thing that triggers the anger that is already there. Further, even if you don't provide the trigger, the anger often will be released anyway in response to irrational thoughts she is experiencing.


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## hurtnohio

I just want to tell everyone on this board, "Thanks." I will still check in here periodically. I'm not going anywhere. However, I believe that my online time will be better spent at "bpdfamily.com." I honestly believe I am dealing with a wife who suffers from borderline personality disorder. I know that no website can offer a definitive diagnosis, but all the pieces of the puzzle make more sense with this explanation than any other.

Since I seem to be dealing with BPD, I will be spending more time on a website dedicated to dealing with this sad thinking disorder. I value the input everyone has given me here, and I will still check in from time to time. I just won't be as active as I have been.

Thanks again for all the advice. I may be slow to accept some of the advice offered here, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.


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## COguy

Good decision! I hope it turns out well for you, and if nothing else, that you grow from it and seek the best for your life.


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## Uptown

hurtnohio said:


> I may be slow to accept some of the advice offered here, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it.


Hurt, there was nothing slow about it. You've made remarkable progress since last July, reaching a level of understanding that took me 15 years to achieve with my BPDer exW. I applaud your accomplishments and I'm very pleased to hear that you are taking advantage of the wonderful resources at BPDfamily.com. Five years ago, the folks at that site were of enormous help to me too.


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## pidge70

If she is one of "my" people, my heart hurts for you. PLEASE, take care of yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio

Here is an update on my situation:

Things have continued to deteriorate. After a lot of research about BPD and reading stories at bpdfamily.com, I have come to the sad conclusion that my wife probably has BPD, and that the long-term prognosis is not good. In addition, my wife started making some wildly paranoid accusations against me, including that I was bugging our house phone to spy on her. My mother-in-law became so "concerned" about my alleged "bugging" that she even called the local police and asked them to come over to our house and do a welfare check. I guess she assumed I had also tied up my wife and child in addition to the non-existent phone bugs. The poor cop who came to the door to check on us looked as confused as I was. But the cops at my door - especially at the behest of my dysfunctional mother-in-law, who hates my guts - was something I couldn't take lightly.

After much prayer and a lot of consultation with close, trusted friends, I finally laid down an ultimatum for my wife about two weeks ago; she either return to counseling with me or I consider divorcing her. I think the whole ultimatum caught her off-guard, but the more I talked it over with her, the more I realized she had been thinking the same thing. She even admitted to me after about an hour of talking that if she had felt that she could have gotten full custody of our son, she would have been long gone. That told me a lot about where we are. 

I said something during this conversation that was probably ill-advised. During the context of a discussion about what kind of marriage we were modeling for our son, my wife asked me what kind of model we would be giving if we split up. I told her that a model of being happy in divorce was probably a better model than the current one; constant anger and tension, him never seeing mommy and daddy kissing or holding hands. Mommy and daddy sleeping in separate rooms. No sex (although I'm pretty sure he hasn't figured that one out!). I think I also mentioned in passing that maybe at some point in the future, each of us might get into a relationship that was healthy, and that could also be a good model for him.

Word to the wise: Never, ever, ever mention the possibility of a future relationship - how ever remote it is - to a spouse with BPD when you're having the divorce talk.

I'm afraid I've mixed things up a little bit. In my bid to make sure I leave no stone unturned in my attempt to get good counsel, I'm afraid I've muddied the waters. I went back and visited our previous marriage counselor, who is now apparently my personal therapist due to my wife's refusal to return. But I also talked to the pastor of our local church about it.

My therapist (who is also a Christian) says that divorce is completely understandable in my situation. She says the (untrue) allegations of physical and emotional abuse alone have put me in a very precarious situation. She advised me to seek legal counsel immediately. I did so; more on that in a minute.

However, I also wanted to talk things over with my pastor. As it turns out, my wife had also talked to him and told him her side of the story - basically that I'd gone "off the deep end" and wanted to go find someone else to marry. For the record, there is no someone else. She took that one comment I made about some hypothetical future relationship if we do divorce, and made it sound as if that were the reason I wanted out. 

The truth of the matter is, I do want to be married to my soul-mate. I was hoping it was her. I still do at times. 

But the issues are much deeper than this. She has falsely accused me of being mentally and physically abusive. Not to the authorities, because she knows she can't prove it. But to her family, and our friends. People I've known for a decade or more are now questioning whether I'm stable enough to be around my own son. This not only has implications for my family, but also for my job. I have a job which has a fairly high level of responsibility attached to it. Allegations of mental instability could be enough to threaten my career.

We met together with our pastor this week, and I must say that I was extremely frustrated and hurt by his advice. He told me that I needed to banish all thoughts of leaving from my head. He said that God would honor me if I became a "human punching bag" (his words) and decided that I wasn't going to fight for my rights. He ended up telling us we needed to hug each other again.

My gosh, I felt as if I had been punched in the gut. I was physically ill and didn't sleep a wink that night. Was he for real? How do you hug a spouse who unjustly believes you to be physically abusive? I'm afraid to touch her right now, because I don't know how it will be misinterpreted. 

I also completely disagree with his "human punching bag" advice. Laying down and being a doormat is what I've done for far too long, and it's gotten me nowhere. Was he really suggesting that just giving in to my wife's unreasonable behavior what God would want me to do? I just can't express my disbelief at how naive this man was. Here's a man who has been my pastor for almost a decade, and now when I need his advice the most, that's what I get? I was flabbergasted!

On another front, I went to my family doctor for a routine physical. It was that time of year again any way, and I wanted to make sure he ruled out anything that could be ruled out that way (high or low thyroid, etc.). My bloodwork came back completely normal. I'm as healthy as any 44-year old man has a right to expect. The doctor did suggest that if I really wanted to prove my mental health, he could refer me to a couple of psychiatrists who could give me a personality profile. But his take was that given the nature of my job (among other things), he figured any pathological mental issues would have been discovered long ago.

I did get a consultation with an attorney. For now, she's not too concerned about the abuse allegations, because they have not involved the authorities. She cautioned me that doing anything about it at this point to protect myself might call more attention to the allegations than they deserved. She also gave me my full range of options regarding divorce or dissolution.

I'm going to take all of this - my attorney's advice, my pastor's advice, and my doctor's recommendations - to my therapist this week and try to come up with a game plan.

My biggest concern here is my son; whatever I do, I don't want him to be hurt. If Mommy and Daddy always fighting and Mommy calling Daddy abusive, stupid, lazy, etc. is the best model we can give him, I'm ready to call it quits. I think being a part-time Daddy who's emotionally healthy beats being a full-time Daddy who's too drained to care.

I also need to consider what future outrages can occur. If she honestly believes that I've been abusive to her and our son, and that I'm really bugging my own phone lines, who knows what weird things she'll accuse me of in the future. As my understanding of BPD grows, it's becoming more and more clear to me that my wife just doesn't see reality the way I do. While most of us have certain "filters" through which we see the world, a person with BPD has filters that are much more vivid and distorted. To put it bluntly, she can't always separate what's really happened versus her internal biases of what is likely to happen. When she looks at me, she sees her abusive uncle, or her abusive grandfather, or her dysfunctional sisters. She doesn't see me for who I am.

I know this decision is mine alone. But I would appreciate any feedback and perspective. Is it better to leave, become more emotionally healthy, and interact with my son on a part-time basis? Or is it better to stay in this living hell, try my best to paint on a happy face, and become a "human punching bag," so my son can have an "intact" home?

Also, prayers for me to have wisdom in this decision are much appreciated.


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## COguy

Wow, sorry to hear what's going on. Thanks for giving us the update, been thinking about you lately.

Your a human, there's only so much you can take. Knowing that it's not just going to get better, no matter how much effort you put in, that would really wear on me.

I think you are on the right path, and I think the decisions you make will be the right ones. You are coming from a place of love. You're not looking to get out because you're an a**hole, you're doing it because it is affecting your quality of life and mental health. You're thinking of your son first.

As I read more of Uptown's posts throughout the board, the prognosis is grim. Your wife either has to work towards the change you need, or your marriage will keep declining. The likelihood of this is small, but you still need to give her a chance. I think you are doing that, as evidenced by your discussions. How she responds is up to her. If she instead looks to blaming you and badmouthing you to friends and family, it isn't going to make her whole.

Keep giving us updates...


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