# LGBT-Nature vs Nurture



## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

So strange question..not sure where it belongs. I recently had a conversation with a friend whose wife is concerned about her daughter who exhibits very masculine traits. She was concerned that he playing a masculine sport would "make her a lesbian". I truly had to hold back laughing as I tend to follow the commonly held belief that this is more or less determined at birth. On the other hand I wondered if there COULD be external, sociological factors that could come into play in the development of ones sexuality in this regard.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It depends on what you think sexuality IS. Who you screw and who you love are two different things.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Different people, different causes. Some people have a wider spectrum, such as bisexuals. Aspergers seems to be associated with bisexuality or homosexuality sometimes. There is also a correlation between child sex abuse and homosexuality.

Some people certainly seem to be born homosexual. Other people have some kind of childhood trauma.

But I am certain that playing sports or being in theater does not make a person become homosexual!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=homosexuality+and+epigenetics&btnG=&as_sdt=1,5&as_sdtp=


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## JukeboxHero (Mar 3, 2015)

Thor said:


> Different people, different causes. Some people have a wider spectrum, such as bisexuals. Aspergers seems to be associated with bisexuality or homosexuality sometimes. There is also a correlation between child sex abuse and homosexuality.
> 
> Some people certainly seem to be born homosexual. Other people have some kind of childhood trauma.
> 
> But I am certain that playing sports or being in theater does not make a person become homosexual!



Lol, that reminds me of a funny story. One of my wife's relatives had their second son when they really wanted a daughter. While he was growing up, they dressed him in girl's clothes and he spent most of toddler years being coddled by the woman of the family and was more involved with feminine activities (like dolls, shopping, dressing like a girl, etc). Well, guess what? He turned out to be gay, and dresses looks a lot like a girl. In fact, if you saw pics of him, he/she looks pretty damn convincing (even hot!). I'm not sure if there was any surgery involved or if he's just really good at make-up.

ironically his father and older brother weren't happy about it initially (they're Filipino & Catholic) but it seems they've grown to accept him and refer to him as a her/their sister.

I'm not sure if he was born that way or if he was affected by how he was raised. I just find the Irony to be hilarious; they got exactly what they wanted.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Tomboys who like climbing trees and playing ball with the boys have existed forever. All those girls did not become lesbians after puberty.

There are also lesbians who never liked any of those sporty things, and dress very feminine complete with make-up and heels as adults.

Sports don't make people gay. If they did, there would be a lot more lesbians out there considering how many girls grew up playing soccer in school.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

When my son was little his sister would dress him up with her frilly dresses and put make up on his face. I would paint his nails. He also, chewed all her Barbie's feet off. 

A few weeks ago he was acting very queer and keeping to himself. Not eating, not smiling and we got worried. So I asked him constantly what was going on. I ask him if it was a girl, he said no. I asked if he was bullied, he said no. I told him if you like boys its ok and he laughs so hard. He was just tired from too many summer activities and going back to school. 

But what I like about all of this, is I heard my husband telling him very quietly, that if he liked boys he was going to be good with it. He would still love him. And my son must have been shocked because who would expect his father to be so open.

And of course, my daughter choose to go to an all girls college, where about 1/3 or more of the population is gay.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm a big proponent of single sex schooling. And if your daughter is going to a women's college that's 1/3rd gay that's probably below average. LUGs.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Runs like Dog said:


> I'm a big proponent of single sex schooling. And if your daughter is going to a women's college that's 1/3rd gay that's probably below average. LUGs.


Do you think so? Maybe, it more. Because I swear I have never seen so many handsome girls anywhere else. You have to like do a double take and reset your mind, every time you see one. :grin2:

It's nature and nurture. Some people are born and some people were made. It's not only LGTB alone, it's criminals, smart people, lazy people. We are all a product of both nature and our environment.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> Do you think so? Maybe, it more. Because I swear I have never seen so many handsome girls anywhere else. You have to like do a double take and reset your mind, every time you see one. :grin2:
> 
> *It's nature and nurture. Some people are born and some people were made. It's not only LGTB alone, it's criminals, smart people, lazy people. We are all a product of both nature and our environment*.


Agree completely.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Childhood trauma does NOT correlate with homosexuality. Nurture does NOT affect a person's sexual orientation nor their sexual identity. A boy who nurtures his trucks and wraps his action figures in a blanket to cradle them is not a budding homosexual any more than a girl who plays very aggressively and refuses to have her hair brushed.

How a person is nurtured can, however, modify how that child eventually comes to learn their particular orientation or identity. Some kids know very early they are very different, while other kids don't figure it out until they reach adulthood.

My daughter was a girly girl if every there was one, though she did like sports. She liked quite cooperative games and toys, she liked art stuff and craft stuff, she loved having her hair brushed or curled or braided...just loved someone playing with her hair. She never liked boy, never liked playing with boys and could never tolerate their rough and tumble ways. Her favorite color was and still is pink. She recognized in college she felt different from other girls because she wanted nothing to do with boys and by this time she knew her lack of crushes on boys was not due to hating how rough and tumble Nd boisterous boys are. But still ...she didn't have crushes on girls. She thought she was unable to feel romantic love since she never felt a romantic crush. Finally she met the woman who would become her wife and she recognized that her past best best friends were actually crushes. Meeting her wife made her heart go pitter patter and affection with this woman woke up other parts that had never been activated before.

If nurturing actually COULD affect a person's sexual identity, there wouldn't be very many homosexuals in most cultures with strict expectations on masculinity and femininity. Right?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Does it really matter though? Does it matter if it's nature or nurture? Does one make it more valid and acceptable to be gay than the other? I don't think so.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Does it really matter though? Does it matter if it's nature or nurture? Does one make it more valid and acceptable to be gay than the other? I don't think so.


Apparently, it matters to the OP's friend's wife who is "concerned" that playing sports will turn her daughter into a lesbian.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Only Softball, 

Actually that is just another stereotype. In fact being boyish, tomboy or trans-gendered is no indicator of sexual orientation. That is a common misconception. But to answer Fozzy. If it can be cured, changed, then they call it a disease or disorder. And then it is not accepted because it can be mainstreamed. Whether or not the patient desires it. But if it just is part of that person, then it becomes legally protected. Except for going into a bathroom.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Does it really matter though? Does it matter if it's nature or nurture? Does one make it more valid and acceptable to be gay than the other? I don't think so.


Yes it matters a great deal!

There once was a time when left handed students were punished for being left handed because it was seen as wrong. We know know that it is the way that person's brain is wired.

There once was a time when people with epilepsy were thought to be possessed. 

Once idiots stop thinking they can pray the gay away we might be able to say it doesn't matter. Once idiots like the OP's friend learn that they can't make their child gay nor nurture the gay away, it won't matter.

Until then, stupidity, falsehood, and ignorance must be confronted at each turn and at each opportunity.

"Well I just don't believe that gays are born that way." Okay you can believe however you want, but you can't take away or keep me from my right based on your ignorance! M'kay hon?


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Its both. Otherwise the correlation among identical twins both being gay or not would be 100%. Its not.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> Its both. Otherwise the correlation among identical twins both being gay or not would be 100%. Its not.



Epigenetic expressions are variants found even among identical twins.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I've always found it interesting that the majority of gay people say they've always felt that way, the majority of people who say it's chosen or caused by environment are straight.

I'm straight, but I like girls sometimes. I remember having a crush on my female second grade teacher, and at that age I was living with a stepmother who encouraged me to look feminine and act like a lady. Make of that what you will.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

weightlifter said:


> Its both. Otherwise the correlation among identical twins both being gay or not would be 100%. Its not.


Some identical twins are known as mirror twins. Statistically, where one twin is gay only 52% of cases where that the other twin is also gay. If the twins are fraternal and one is gay, 22%. That is a really strong argument that nurture has NOTHING at all to do with sexual orientation.

All science is now pointing to the fact that sexual orientation is based in the biology of the person, not the home or environment.

Nurturing has ZERO impact on sexual orientation. None! Zilch! Nada! Zip!

Orientation is an innate biological wiring that nurturing can't over ride, nor cause.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Childhood trauma does NOT correlate with homosexuality.


That ^^^ is quite a bold assertion. So, out of curiosity, I googled ''does childhood trauma correlate to homosexuality''. 

After quickly sampling the top ten or so links, it seems it's still an open question. I employed my "Olympic Figure Skating Scoring Theorem" model of distilling truth (where I dismiss the most pro and anti proponents) and looked for the least biased sources. Plenty of area for nuance with this question.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

OnTheFly said:


> That ^^^ is quite a bold assertion. So, out of curiosity, I googled ''does childhood trauma correlate to homosexuality''.
> 
> 
> 
> After quickly sampling the top ten or so links, it seems it's still an open question. I employed my "Olympic Figure Skating Scoring Theorem" model of distilling truth (where I dismiss the most pro and anti proponents) and looked for the least biased sources. Plenty of area for nuance with this question.



Rather than just plain google, which will give you a plethora of information, some with validly and some bias toward blatant falsehood. Read some actual peer reviewed research on the topic.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> Rather than just plain google, which will give you a plethora of information, some with validly and some bias toward blatant falsehood. Read some actual peer reviewed research on the topic.


One of the links I looked at was a research paper, and truth be told, I'm woefully ill-trained to read and decipher the language and statistics. 

As some background…..this issue is a non-issue for me. I haven't put a lot of thought into it and if someone randomly asked me about it, much like the original poster of this thread did, I'd say it's a little of both (nature & nurture). When the poster I quoted said definitively that it was NOT correlated to nurture (childhood trauma), I thought that claim needed to be examined. I did it, rudimentarily, and believe it is an open question and nuanced. 

If the totality of peer reviewed research supports the claim that childhood trauma does NOT correlate to homosexuality, then I'll gladly amend my opinion. Does it?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

OnTheFly said:


> One of the links I looked at was a research paper, and truth be told, I'm woefully ill-trained to read and decipher the language and statistics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What most psychology data suggests is that childhood trauma would rarely be a cause (science is never a 100%, there is always levels of uncertainty in any research) for homosexuality but has strong correlation to hyper or hypo sexuality.



There are several papers (I posted a link above) that suggest that expression levels of non-SNP genes are likely the cause and effect of sexual expressiveness. We know that methylation and acetylation of nucleotides of the DNA (epigenetics) can cause variation of expressions. And, yes too much or too little of a protein can have effects on many levels. Even those of how we function neurologically. 



Thus the medical and psychology fields have long since stopped categorizing homosexuality as deviant or pathological behavior.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> What most psychology data suggests is that childhood trauma would rarely be a cause (science is never a 100%, there is always levels of uncertainty in any research) for homosexuality but has strong correlation to hyper or hypo sexuality.
> 
> There are several papers (I posted a link above) that suggest that expression levels of non-SNP genes are likely the cause and effect of sexual expressiveness. We know that methylation and acetylation of DNA moities (epigenetics) can cause variation of expressions. And, yes too much or too little of a protein can have effects on many levels. Even those of how we function neurologically.
> 
> Thus the medical and psychology fields have long since stopped categorizing homosexuality as deviant or pathological behavior.


Like I said, I don't have a dog in this race, I'll bow out.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Human sexuality covers a very wide range. From discussions here, its clear that to many people HD and LD are every bit as important as orientation. Vanilla / kinky is another dimension. Some people change behaviors during life - it is difficult to say if their orientation changed, or if they already had a variety of interests and chose to follow one more than the others. 

I don't think there are either clear genetic markers, or a known set of environmental conditions that determine orientation. It does seem that making someone act in a way that differs from they fell is a bad idea. 

I think the only important issue about orientation or other sexual interests or behaviors is that people find compatible partners, and not try to convince themselves to marry someone of the wrong gender or behaviors.

My only advice to parents would be to make sure that your children are aware of the importance of sexual compatibility - something that goes beyond gender. Those who fail will end up writing endless posts here......


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> That ^^^ is quite a bold assertion. So, out of curiosity, I googled ''does childhood trauma correlate to homosexuality''.
> 
> After quickly sampling the top ten or so links, it seems it's still an open question. I employed my "Olympic Figure Skating Scoring Theorem" model of distilling truth (where I dismiss the most pro and anti proponents) and looked for the least biased sources. Plenty of area for nuance with this question.


I don't think so. 

In order for there to be a statistical correlation you would have to compare boys molested by men and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation to girls molested by women and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation and since so few molestation incidents involve a female perpetrator you cannot extrapolate any sort of correlation.

Children molested by a trusted adult are most prone to hyper sexualized behavior as adults. Those adults skew results and need to be factored for any sort of honest results based theory to be accepted.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think so.


To what do you disagree? That I said it's an open question and/or the answer can be nuanced?



Anon Pink said:


> In order for there to be a statistical correlation you would have to compare boys molested by men and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation to girls molested by women and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation and since so few molestation incidents involve a female perpetrator you cannot extrapolate any sort of correlation.


Not to be argumentative, but you changed the definition of ''childhood trauma'' on me. 

Also why ''must'' the boys be compared to the girls to determine correlation? Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn't it be better to compare rates of homosexuality between boys who were and were not traumatized as children? (And the same for girls?).

When they do studies of men in prison and find that a large percentage of them come from fatherless homes…is that a correlation? 



Anon Pink said:


> Children molested by a trusted adult are most prone to hyper sexualized behavior as adults. Those adults skew results and need to be factored for any sort of honest results based theory to be accepted.


Who are ''those adults''? The children who grew up or the people who molested initially? I'm a tad confused.

Either way, if as you say, that molested children are prone to hyper sexualized behaviour…..and that behaviour also includes homosexuality…..then aren't we agreeing?

Perhaps, we are mixing up the definitions of 'correlation' and 'causation'?

(Standard disclaimer: This is an area of curiosity for me and not ideological)


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes it matters a great deal!
> 
> There once was a time when left handed students were punished for being left handed because it was seen as wrong. We know know that it is the way that person's brain is wired.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, but at a personal level for me--it just doesn't matter. Whether a person is born that way or not does not matter to me. I don't view them any differently either way.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> In order for there to be a statistical correlation you would have to compare boys molested by men and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation to girls molested by women and the rate of eventual homosexual orientation and since so few molestation incidents involve a female perpetrator you cannot extrapolate any sort of correlation.
> 
> Children molested by a trusted adult are most prone to hyper sexualized behavior as adults. Those adults skew results and need to be factored for any sort of honest results based theory to be accepted.



Which brings up a tangental question--what makes molesters the way they are? Are they born that way?

What about people who are into animals? Japanese tentacle porn? Feet? Transsexual porn?

Is there NO room for nurture to play into anything when you have such an huge variety of what gets people going beyond simply male/female?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

OnTheFly said:


> To what do you disagree? That I said it's an open question and/or the answer can be nuanced?
> 
> That my statement was a bold assertion.
> 
> ...



Perhaps we are. Here are some links so you can do some reading on your own since you are so curious about this.

Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay - US News

Homosexuality is Genetic: Strongest Evidence Yet : Biology : Nature World News


And while we're on the subject...

Biological Factors ? LGBT Science



> Anti-gay activists routinely claim that abuse, neglect, or bad parenting causes homosexuality. The scientific literature, however, does not support these obsolete views. According to Dr. Eric Vilain, Professor of Human Genetics, Pediatrics and Urology at UCLA, and the Director of the Institute for Society and Genetics:



Let me know if you'd like some more links....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Which brings up a tangental question--what makes molesters the way they are? Are they born that way?
> 
> What about people who are into animals? Japanese tentacle porn? Feet? Transsexual porn?
> 
> Is there NO room for nurture to play into anything when you have such an huge variety of what gets people going beyond simply male/female?


Pedophiles, adults who have a fetish about sex with children have two major characteristics in common.

Low inhibition to act on something that clearly is wrong. Wrong in the sense that it is not consensual and it does victimize. Combined with a sexual fetish about children.

We know what causes low inhibition to victimize but we don't know what causes a person to develop a sexual fetish for children.

Yes there are adults who have a fetish for sex with children but they do not act on it because they haven't lowered their inhibition to victimize. Those are people who have mountains of kiddie porn but no victims, other than the kids featured in the porn.

We don't know what causes any sexual fetish.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Japanese tentacle porn?


Ok have to share a hysterical story (sorry for mini thread jack)...was playing Cards Against Humanity with several members of my family, including my 75 y/o mother. She drew an answer card that said "Tentacle Porn". She looked puzzled at it for a minute and then flipped it around for all of us to see and said "whaaaaa??"

We all laughed, and I said "yeah, well, it is literally exactly what it says...there is a genre of porn that is all about these random tentacles which are all over naked women's bodies...don't ask me why this is a thing, but it is".

On the next question, she proudly played her "tentacle porn" card and won that round, as well as a round of laughter, applause, and drinks.


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

@anonPink, thanks for the links and taking the time to respond.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
because of the extreme illegality of child porn, only pedophiles with fairly low inhibition will have any. Its very difficult to know how many pedophiles exist who do have self control - admission of being a pedophile can have disastrous results, even if someone has never acted on that interest. 





Anon Pink said:


> snip
> Yes there are adults who have a fetish for sex with children but they do not act on it because they haven't lowered their inhibition to victimize. Those are people who have mountains of kiddie porn but no victims, other than the kids featured in the porn.
> 
> We don't know what causes any sexual fetish.


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

It would seem that the "evidence/science" is inconclusive. I ask the forum because there seems to be instances where people's collective experiences and their observation of collective CORRELATIONS are often apparent before science can conclusively prove or disprove a CAUSATION. For example we may be able to see a correlation between greenhouse gas emissions/global warming or smoking/cancer rates before science can prove or disprove the Causation. (perhaps there are better examples) 

I Do feel that there are people who are undeniably are born with a very strong disposition toward one orientation or another. I wonder however, in instances where a child is a 5 on the proverbial 1-10 scale of being gay/straight for example, if external factors come into play.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

It's an interesting question. Brings to mind guys in prison who are "gay for the stay", but then go back to their wives/gf's on the outside.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Ikaika said:


> https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=homosexuality+and+epigenetics&btnG=&as_sdt=1,5&as_sdtp=






lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> It would seem that the "evidence/science" is inconclusive. I ask the forum because there seems to be instances where people's collective experiences and their observation of collective CORRELATIONS are often apparent before science can conclusively prove or disprove a CAUSATION. For example we may be able to see a correlation between greenhouse gas emissions/global warming or smoking/cancer rates before science can prove or disprove the Causation. (perhaps there are better examples)
> 
> 
> 
> I Do feel that there are people who are undeniably are born with a very strong disposition toward one orientation or another. I wonder however, in instances where a child is a 5 on the proverbial 1-10 scale of being gay/straight for example, if external factors come into play.



Feel free to read the current research we understand on the topic. Science will always come with levels of uncertainty.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I clicked that link and my brain vapor locked.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I clicked that link and my brain vapor locked.



Makes complete sense to me


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## lifeisbetterthanalternat (Apr 24, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> It's an interesting question. Brings to mind guys in prison who are "gay for the stay", but then go back to their wives/gf's on the outside.


Fozzy, 

Great point!! I had not thought of the prison thing. I recently learned that there is a significant of self-reported "straight" men who have sex with other men on the "down low". As I understand it, it originated from ex-prisoners who continued having relations with men even once they left prison. 

I can't say I know the numbers...but, this would a perfect example of how "nurture" could influence people's orientation. This assumes however that a man who professes to be "straight" even though he has sex with a man...is not at the very least bi on any scale.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

lifeisbetterthanalternat said:


> Fozzy,
> 
> Great point!! I had not thought of the prison thing. I recently learned that there is a significant of self-reported "straight" men who have sex with other men on the "down low". As I understand it, it originated from ex-prisoners who continued having relations with men even once they left prison.
> 
> I can't say I know the numbers...but, this would a perfect example of how "nurture" could influence people's orientation. This assumes however that a man who professes to be "straight" even though he has sex with a man...is not at the very least bi on any scale.


I really wouldn't call what goes on in prison as "nurture." I believe it's called RAPE.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

While rape does happen, not every sexual encounter in prison is rape. And in the cases where it IS rape, something's motivating those rapists.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

norajane said:


> I really wouldn't call what goes on in prison as "nurture." I believe it's called RAPE.



My thoughts exactly which is not a sexual response, rape.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> While rape does happen, not every sexual encounter in prison is rape. And in the cases where it IS rape, something's motivating those rapists.



While I'm sure consensual sex happens in prison, even though such activity is forbidden, my guess it happens at the same frequency as it does in the general, non-penal, population. This would hardly provide evidence in reclassifying ones sexual orientation due to external circumstances. This is a current assumption by one Dr. Ben Carson, presidential candidate and not an opinion shared by any of the professional medical associations.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I would never suggest that a person's state of cognitive thinking is automatically hard wired. Nor would I assume more limbic/behavioral attitudes cannot assume variations throughout ones life, stages. There are certain aspects of some behaviors and some cognition which have a powerful propensity based on something as simple as critical concentrations of intracellular proteins. As some some proteins are promiscuous in their partnership with other proteins which in turn can be affected by these critical concentrations, it is not hard to see where genetic expression can have some inferred effects on something as interesting as ones sexual attraction. Such studies have actually been done on other mammal species with interesting results. 

It is true, the evidence is not overwhelming conclusive, but we have a much clearer understanding than we did even 10 years ago. Levels of genetic expression, not some gay gene, may be what explains most (p<0.05) homosexual or other sexual tendencies other than heterosexual. 

That's all I have to say... This is not my area of expertise, but I do understand the studies done thus far.


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