# Really...I mean Really...LOL!



## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

Ok...so got a new, old issue with my wife...Over a hot dog...lol

(still playing it "cool" with her, to see if I can get her to heat up)

Yesterday, I worked a long day...went to the gym, she met me there. I could tell she was in a mood over something a friend did. She asked why I started my workout without waiting for her...I laughed it off...then she was short with me at home and told me she didn't like the way I cook hotdogs, so I simply said "ok, tell me how you want it cooked" She just basically said "do it right" (not the exact words) so I said "why don't you cook it the way you like"...nicely, and I was nice for the rest of the night, and she got frosty on me and reverted to old "no talk, no look"

I thought things calmed down this morning when she actually talked to me...then I get this email:

"I just want you to know that I think there is a big difference between you asserting yourself and you not caring to simply cook my food the way that I prefer to eat it. I would and do pay attention to your likes and dislikes. I was not asking for the world. Let me know if this is how things are now (you're way or no way). A very big reason I fell in love with you was because you were so considerate. Keep chipping away like you are and soon there well be nothing left but resentment. I am not a child and do not need to be taught petty lessons. I understand you want to speak up about things but be very careful for what and how. I don't even recognize the person I married. This is not a threat just a fact. I may not be able to bend as far as you think without breaking."

I didn't react to her last night, or this morning with anger over anything, I was really trying to be nice about everything...I was thankful, and appreciative of her and even, though she was angry, I asked if she needed any help with what she was doing, as if nothing big had happened.

So my first thought was to respond...

I nixed that, fast...

My next thought is to ignore for now...finish my day, go to the gym like I planned and simply talk to her when I get home...I really don't want to start a pissing contest via email.

I know she is mad right now, but the fact that she sent me this tells me that she is both concerned (and angry) but that she is also testing me...to see if I will cave again...

I look forward to hearing your thoughts...

Mike


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

you do realize that this has nothing to do with hot dogs, right? And you think you nixed a problem?

Oy, vey.

There is valuable information in that email. Go back and see if you can find it.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

Yeah something tells me there is so much more to this than she is telling or your willing to see...Not saying your the bad guy persay...I wouldn't ignore her she is screaming out for something.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MPD,

One of the more difficult things about this is the idea that those around you resist any change - including positive change.

But, don't assume that any resistance you encounter puts you in the "right". As tempting as it may be to "give some of what you've been getting back", that is counterproductive.

She is attempting to build a case that you don't care what she thinks or feels.

There is a direct honest way to deal with these issues without jumping at every bark and being a doormat.

It's called listening for meaning.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

lamaga said:


> you do realize that this has nothing to do with hot dogs, right? And you think you nixed a problem?
> 
> Oy, vey.
> 
> There is valuable information in that email. Go back and see if you can find it.


lamage...

(I posted about my situation here already...It's the "PLEASE!!! To Say I need HELP would be an Enourmous Understatemet!!!" in case you haven't seen it yet) I know this is a much larger problem than a hot dog...lol 

The comment about "nixing" was not about last night with my wife and the hot dog, it was about me not responding to her email, while I am at work...I realize now looking back at it stated that way, that it could be confusing, hope that clears it up a little...I would much prefer to talk to her face to face so that she can see I am not angry, and sincere in what I tell her.




sculley said:


> Yeah something tells me there is so much more to this than she is telling or your willing to see...Not saying your the bad guy persay...I wouldn't ignore her she is screaming out for something.


sculley...

Thanks...and I know I am not a "bad guy" I WAS a "Nice Guy" and have begun changing that about myself...And since I have only just begun this journey, I expect there will be some serious bumps in the road...I just didn't think a hot dog would be the first one. lol


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Boundaries are really key here. For what it’s worth in the 40 odd years we were together my wife contacted me at work just a couple of times. One of them because she thought there was a snake in the garden.

To be contacted at work for such a trivial reason, your wife is no respecter of your boundaries. I’d take that email that she was really trying to p!ss you off and get you mad while you’re working! That’s not nice behaviour. And that’s probably one of the big problems in your marriage.

How to assert a new boundary here? Just tell your wife you’re wiling to discuss any issue under the sun with her. But you would really appreciate it if she just contact you at work in the future for emergencies only.


I think your wife thinks you have entered into a power struggle. Maybe you have or maybe that’s just the way she sees it. It may be that she truly does want to dominate you and is in fear of losing her power over you, her dominance.

It may also be that the man you want to be is not the man your wife wants to be with. In these things it’s as Deejo says. You have to be prepared to end the marriage and walk away.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

AFEH said "To be contacted at work for such a trivial reason, your wife is no respecter of your boundaries. "

WHAT? Unless he's a heart surgeon or working around the clock to pull earthquake victims out of the rubble, he can get the occasional email from his wife, even if it's about something as "trivial" as his marriage.

Sheeesh.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> MPD,
> 
> One of the more difficult things about this is the idea that those around you resist any change - including positive change.
> 
> ...


Conrad...

I think this might stem from the fact that I have been trying to change my thermostat still...I have not been chasing after her like I have for a looooong time...I have kept things "cooler" you know not saying ILY first, not calling or texting first, etc...I know this is really hard for her because I ALWAYS did that stuff...And I think she is freaked out that I have changed that aspect of me. I still do everything a good husband and father should daily.

Let me give a little more backround about yesterday and what led to this. 

I was heading to the gym after work and my wife texted me asking if I would meet her at the store, (old me would have gone out of my way to meet her). New me responded that I was already past there (which I was) and that I would meet her at the gym, and that we could look at what she wanted this weekend. She responded ok and that she was checking out and would meet me there.

I get there and change and get into my workout...I check my phone and see that she called, so I call her back. She askes what I'm doing, and I tell her working out, she asks why didn't I wait...(should have been funny, but missed the opportunity) just said I don't know. let it go...She gets there and comes over to start her workout...I act like nothing happened and try to talk with her...I can tell she is in a mood, I tell her that I saw a pic a friend posted of her girls night...she was mad at her friend for posting the pic because she didn't like it and had asked her friend not too...

We finished our workouts and head home...she is already mad at me...but to this point I don't think I have done anything wrong.

It's late, and raining so I tell her we'll grill tomorrow and ask are hotdogs ok...she says yes...

She is already a bit frosty and I am just being normal...I start to cook and she asks me if I would take her hot dogs out of the pan. I say sure...and do so...she tells me that she doesn't like the way I cook them, that they are always a little burnt and then cold on the inside...so I say that fine...and try and get her to tell me how she would like them cooked...what temp, or better yet, ask her to set the temp on the pan so she is happy with it. She gets madder and starts to throw a bit of a tantrum...the old 'if you don't know how to cook them then I'll just cook them myself' bit...so I say "ok" and finish my cooking then tell her the pan is all hers....

You have already read the rest of what happened...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

lamaga said:


> AFEH said "To be contacted at work for such a trivial reason, your wife is no respecter of your boundaries. "
> 
> WHAT? Unless he's a heart surgeon or working around the clock to pull earthquake victims out of the rubble, he can get the occasional email from his wife, even if it's about something as "trivial" as his marriage.
> 
> Sheeesh.


You see you and I disagree. His wife is being stupid and very much like a little child, a little girl who didn’t get her cookie.

He cannot possibly do his wife’s concerns any justice whatsoever while he’s at work. But she may well defocus him and get him emotionally charged while he’s working to put bread on the table and a roof over his family’s head.

That is utterly stupid, selfish and totally self-centred behaviour. Much like a six year old girly. A Princess.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

Maybe she is used to the old you and the "new" you is a change that looks negative so she is acting out from that.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

AFEH said:


> You see you and I disagree. His wife is being stupid and very much like a little child, a little girl who didn’t get her cookie.
> 
> He cannot possibly do his wife’s concerns any justice whatsoever while he’s at work. But she may well defocus him and get him emotionally charged while he’s working to put bread on the table and a roof over his family’s head.
> 
> That is utterly stupid, selfish and totally self-centred behaviour. Much like a six year old girly. A Princess.


I hate to say this but he admiited to how he used to always do things for her lol technically he turned her into a "princess" as you call it..
sorry MPDBlues lol


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Boundaries are really key here.
> 
> To be contacted at work for such a trivial reason, your wife is no respecter of your boundaries. I’d take that email that she was really trying to p!ss you off and get you mad while you’re working! That’s not nice behaviour. And that’s probably one of the big problems in your marriage.
> 
> ...


AFEH...

That was exactly how I took the email...I hear what she is saying and I am glad that she has actually voiced her anger..but at the same time I really do feel this IS, from her perspective, a power struggle...and I am sure that it is also fear speaking...otherwise why threaten me...and even though she says it isn't a threat, it is. I don't mind that she contact me at work...I am always able to break off and talk for a minute, this felt more deliberate...more challenging.

The reason I chose not to respond to her email is that words on paper are very often misconstrued...and I don't like the idea of giving her a response that she will read more meaning into then what there is.

I want to talk things through, and don't feel that I have been in any way mean...just that I haven't been as easy going as she has been spoiled to think I am.

When she says she isn't a child...it's to me, a childish reaction...She was obviously mad about other things in her day and it seems she was looking to use me as a punching bag...but I didn't let her...now, like a child, she is lashing out at me. Do you think I am wrong to think that way? If I am in the wrong I will admit it...and own it as well. I just don't think I was.


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## geek down (May 10, 2012)

To OP.. She is playing you... I'd find a way to get out of the house and get out of the relationship..

its one thing to make someone a meal the way they want.. its quite another to not want to show the person how you like it, so that you can get a leg up in a future fight..


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

sculley said:


> I hate to say this but he admiited to how he used to always do things for her lol technically he turned her into a "princess" as you call it..
> sorry MPDBlues lol


sculley...

one thing I have learned here is that you don't have to say your sorry for saying how you feel. I appreciate your being honest, and yes..."I am completely responsible for making her into a princess on a pedestal." And I have said that right to her face...I am in the process of taking her off of that high perch where she has been and bringing her down to sit on her throne at my side as my queen, next to her king...equal in all things....to use the metaphor...LOL


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

SNORF. She already thinks you are superior and condescending, and now you are going to take her off her high perch?

Yeah. This'll end well.

Good luck.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

lamaga said:


> SNORF. She already thinks you are superior and condescending, and now you are going to take her off her high perch?
> 
> Yeah. This'll end well.
> 
> Good luck.


lamaga...

Honestly if you're here just to laugh and get your jolly's then you're in the wrong place...if you have something constuctive to add I am all for it otherwise...take your ball and go home please...lol


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

MPDBlues said:


> lamaga...
> 
> Honestly if you're here just to laugh and get your jolly's then you're in the wrong place...if you have something constuctive to add I am all for it otherwise...take your ball and go home please...lol


Me thinks something is hitting a bit close to home. But that is just conjecture which is the rule of the day on this site.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

geek down said:


> To OP.. She is playing you... I'd find a way to get out of the house and get out of the relationship..
> 
> its one thing to make someone a meal the way they want.. its quite another to not want to show the person how you like it, so that you can get a leg up in a future fight..


geek down...

We talked a lot this weekend and this week seemed to be ok...I think she is just facing her fears again because I am not reacting the way I have been. To me this wasn't and isn't about a hot dog...it's about how she treated me starting with the phone call...she was mad at a friend and I feel that she transfered that anger to me verses addressing her friend...Please don't jump right to get out because that is not what I am looking to do...I understand it may come to that some day...or it may not, but for now I am in this because I want to be.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

RClawson said:


> Me thinks something is hitting a bit close to home. But that is just conjecture which is the rule of the day on this site.


RClawson...

LOL...I love a good knock as well as the next, and can be just as sarcastic too...

But sadly, this isn't an open mic comedy night...this is real life and real people who are looking to voice concerns and have them heard and CONSTRUCTIVELY commented on.

But even with the seriousness....thanks for the laugh!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

MPDBlues said:


> Ok...so got a new, old issue with my wife...Over a hot dog...lol
> 
> (still playing it "cool" with her, to see if I can get her to heat up)
> 
> ...


how did she ask for you to cook the hot dog?

was her attitude poor ....crinkeled up nose whiny voice not showing any respect for you. or was she just asking you to cook it alittle different.

if her attitude was poor then tell her you would cook her hot dogs any way she like if she asked respectfully instead of asking like a bit*h.

if her attitude was cool just comunicating how she like her hot dog then apoligise and say I got a hot dog thats cooked just perfact for you then go make love after you could say sorry again and then thank her for being understanding.

back to the poor attitude. if she was snippy and pi$$y about the hot dog then stick to you guns and say that email you sent was bull. if you don't treat me with respect then I would prefer you leave.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> sculley...
> 
> one thing I have learned here is that you don't have to say your sorry for saying how you feel. I appreciate your being honest, and yes..."I am completely responsible for making her into a princess on a pedestal." And I have said that right to her face...I am in the process of taking her off of that high perch where she has been and bringing her down to sit on her throne at my side as my queen, next to her king...equal in all things....to use the metaphor...LOL


I understand that the comment was more for the other person calling her the princess not really a jab at you. lol

You admitted to being the good guy, do you think by acting like a different guy that she is cold to you because she sense your different I know sometimes the difference makes me wonder if a SO is being faithful etc. Just curious dear.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> how did she ask for you to cook the hot dog?
> 
> was her attitude poor ....crinkeled up nose whiny voice not showing any respect for you. or was she just asking you to cook it alittle different.
> 
> ...




chillymorn...

It was a bit whiny to start and became itchy as it continued...but regardless, this isn't about a hot dog...that's just the excuse she is using for being angry...My reason for backing off was the overall temperment she had from the start...I didn't do anything to cause her anger to begin with...and yet she felt it was ok to attack my cooking and get angry about something very trivial. She began the test with "why didn't you wait for me" from the call at the gym...she was already mad then...she is using the hotdog as the beginning, but for me that was the end of it...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MPDBlues said:


> I thought things calmed down this morning when she actually talked to me...then I get this email:
> 
> "I just want you to know that I think there is a big difference between you asserting yourself and you not caring to simply cook my food the way that I prefer to eat it. I would and do pay attention to your likes and dislikes. I was not asking for the world. Let me know if this is how things are now (you're way or no way). A very big reason I fell in love with you was because you were so considerate. Keep chipping away like you are and soon there well be nothing left but resentment. I am not a child and do not need to be taught petty lessons. I understand you want to speak up about things but be very careful for what and how. I don't even recognize the person I married. This is not a threat just a fact. I may not be able to bend as far as you think without breaking."


Question for you Mike. Do you know what is important in the email that she sent?

I'll bottom line it from my point of view. Yes, you should engage her. No ... you shouldn't bring up the hot dog.

Sit down. smile at her warmly, and say the following:
"I read your email. Wasn't ignoring you, I wanted to process what you were saying. And what I hear you saying is that you resent me ... would like to hear from you why that is and what we do about it."

If I were a betting man, she will likely tee off on what YOU can do about it ... with very little or nothing from her end of the court. 

Don't get into a debate. Listen to her, thank her for her input and say something like, "You've given me a lot to think about." And then be done. This isn't about what you have to say or do ... you already know what that is. And note ... if you try to explain, defend or rationalize that position to her ... she will slaughter you like a lamb. You won't possibly come out of that exchange well.

Let her say what she needs to say, you just pay attention. Don't agree or promise anything ... just get her to talk, and she will tell you why she's uncomfortable without telling you that she's uncomfortable.

Quite frankly, you are already at the point where the rubber meets the road. You want to make changes so that your wife regains respect and attraction for you. In the undertaking of that exercise you are patently going to exhibit behavior that she simply won't like ... because it isn't the status quo.

This is where it is very important that you maintain respect for her feelings ... but you MUST trust your own instincts regarding the changes you are making.

This isn't about belittling her ... it's about empowering you.


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## Confused42 (May 25, 2012)

Well I have this problem with my husband. I always know what he likes and dislikes, in everything food (how he likes it prepared) clothes his favorite music etc. 

But as the years went by I realized that he didnt pay attention to any of my likes or dislikes. I dont know our wife but I think I'm a little like her. She contacted you at work because shes hurting inside. She doesnt think she matters to you. 

She wants you to pay attention to the little things about her. Make a great effort.

Personally I think that a wife has the right to get in touch with you at anytime. She should be your number 1 priority. 

I realized that after 14 years of marriage that my husband never takes pictures of me. He had more pictures of this dogs and his Truck than anything. 

I think you need to call her. DOnt email her and just simply say I love you and I'm sorry that you think I dont pay attention to the way you like things done. 

if you dont answer then she will think she does not matter again. i always hate it when my husband ignores me all day. Even when we fight. 

i hope this helps. Good Luck.


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## Crazy8 (Jun 1, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Boundaries are really key here. For what it’s worth in the 40 odd years we were together my wife contacted me at work just a couple of times. One of them because she thought there was a snake in the garden.
> 
> To be contacted at work for such a trivial reason, your wife is no respecter of your boundaries. I’d take that email that she was really trying to p!ss you off and get you mad while you’re working! That’s not nice behaviour. And that’s probably one of the big problems in your marriage.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing as I see it AFEH. I can agree with you to a point, but only to a point. 

We have 1 of 2 things going on here.

1. It's a power struggle as you say. But why? Over hot dogs? What's really being communicated here. Fear? Anger? Confusion? All three?

2. Our boy could be going too far the other way too fast. So he goes from considerate do everything for his wife the way he likes it, to "don't bother me at work". I believe you need to pick your battles. For example, disrespect. He needs to be respected. Sending an email to work? Maybe that's a boundary that we save for later. Let's not lose the war just so we can win this battle. You don't want to send the message that work's more important, do you? Kind of hard to have a relationship where work rates above your wife. I mean, unless he's curing cancer here. Then she can wait.

A lot of times we as men tend to go overboard. That's a part of who we are. We need to consider that here.

The point isn't to stop doing things for the wife. The point is for him to start doing things for himself and not to be her doormat. Yes?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

This whole thing is bull****.

Why do women do this?

The hot dog is a microcosm of the way many women "communicate" (Far to generous a word)

She didn`t like the way he was doing it so he (as a male) directly asked her to tell him how she liked it and she (as a female) would rather not tell him because that might actually lead to a mutual understanding and then should wouldn`t get the pleasure of being a ***** to him for two days over a ****ing hot dog.

OP, I wouldn`t analyze a damn thing in that e-mail.
I`d blow the whole thing off and forget it ever happened.

When she wants to act like a rational grown up I might find some time to talk to her....maybe.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I just took a quick glance at your original thread and the rest of this one.

Your wife`s insecurities are a definitive sign the changes you`re making are working.

Don`t let up


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I don’t know if you got into system theory. Within a system if we make a change in one place unexpected changes can begin to occur in other places.

That’s what’s happening in your life, in your world. For example your wife may well talk to family and friends about your changes and as a result they may start treating you differently.

And you are making very big changes to your “system”.

What you are going through is a transition. Right now you are in a transition in your life. You are travelling from one “stable state” (the things that were) to a new “stable state” (things that will be).

These transitions are an absolutely essential part of a man’s life. Without these transitions we more or less remain as we were at a very young age. And without them we sure as heck are headed towards the long term sadness known as depression.


You can think of these transitions as a “regeneration”. Sometimes these regenerations go very smoothly, sometimes they’re an exceptionally bumpy ride for all concerned.


It’s pretty obvious to me that for you, the “status quo” (the things that were) was so very uncomfortable for you that you are highly unlikely to ever go back there again.


This is the thing that your wife cannot comprehend. She doesn’t get it. Your wife wants the past status quo. She was exceedingly comfortable there. She was comfortable and happy. Even though you were not. You might want to think about that. About how much your happiness means, or doesn’t mean, to her.


In some ways you haven’t got much of a wife. Part of being married is helping one another grow. Helping one another be happy (I’m not with those who say we are not responsible for our partner’s happiness ‘cause we sure as heck can p!ss them off, get them mad and make them very unhappy indeed!). What your wife doesn’t get yet is that this thing inside of you is very strong indeed.


Unfortunately there are times in our life when in order to continue on our path of individuation, in order to carry on with our personal growth and be the man we want to be, we have to leave even those we love deeply behind us.


Try and get your wife on that marriage course I gave you details of. It REALLY does take two of you to work together on these things. If your wife wont work with you and continues to obstruct you, it wont end well.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Crazy8 said:


> Here's the thing as I see it AFEH. I can agree with you to a point, but only to a point.
> 
> We have 1 of 2 things going on here.
> 
> ...


I think boundaries are really key. And setting a boundary about when to talk about their marriage problems is a good a place to start as any.


Mike’s wife is totally used to being able to manipulate the heck out of him. Either consciously or subconsciously, probably both. Women are masters at emotions, reading them, communicating them and manipulating them.


I’d think to date in their relationship Mike’s emotions have been totally under his wife’s control. Well he's taking that control away from her and she doesn’t like it and she wont like it one little bit.


This is all classic stuff. It’s what happens when a man puts up boundaries such that his wife can no longer get inside of him and manipulate his emotions.


In a very big sense Mike’s wife IS losing him. She probably feels that she’s already lost him as she can no longer manipulate him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MPDBlues said:


> AFEH...
> 
> That was exactly how I took the email...I hear what she is saying and I am glad that she has actually voiced her anger..but at the same time I really do feel this IS, from her perspective, a power struggle...and I am sure that it is also fear speaking...otherwise why threaten me...and even though she says it isn't a threat, it is. I don't mind that she contact me at work...I am always able to break off and talk for a minute, this felt more deliberate...more challenging.
> 
> ...


What’s happening is that you are seeing things a lot clearer. You are no longer being “reactive”, simply reacting to your wife. And because of that you are not so emotionally charged and so your blinkers are coming off.


And because of that “simple” change, not reacting to your wife, you have massively and dramatically changed the dynamics in your relationship.


In essence you have taken the remote control of your emotions out of your wife’s hands. Don’t ever give it back.

Emotional manipulators don’t like it at all when they lose their control. That loss of control may be enough for your wife to end your marriage. But I think she will talk about it rather than actually end it. If that’s the case it means you are far too good a guy to throw away.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

> *Originally Posted by MPDBlues*
> I have known for a while but ignored it and only just woke up to realize in just a few days that I am in serious trouble in my Marriage, and I want to repair it.
> 
> My wife has lost all respect for me, is completely resentful of me, berates me over almost everything, belittles me, treats me like a child, and just recently told me that she finds me utterly unattractive. I realize this sounds horrible to say about her...but amazingly after just reading a few posts here...albeit from a while ago, I find I am largely to blame for it...I am the epitome of the "NICE GUY" and as far from MANNING UP as you can get. I know she loves me...sounds weird to say that but I see it in her eyes...but then there are times when she looks at me and I can see disgust.
> ...


Mike made the choice to 'Man Up' based directly on input from his wife.

This isn't about a guy not doing enough for, or paying attention to his wife. This is about a guy whose wife simply is no longer into him ... and she wishes that wasn't the case.

But nonetheless, she is not going to go along quietly with ANY changes that he makes that directly impacts her.


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## Crazy8 (Jun 1, 2012)

AFEH said:


> I think boundaries are really key. And setting a boundary about when to talk about their marriage problems is a good a place to start as any.
> 
> 
> Mike’s wife is totally used to being able to manipulate the heck out of him. Either consciously or subconsciously, probably both. Women are masters at emotions, reading them, communicating them and manipulating them.
> ...


But the purpose isn't for a wife to lose her husband. The point is for the man to take the lead in the relationship. You don't have to be a jerk to make that happen. All that's needed is a firm hand, and knowing when to push back. It has to be focused. If it's not then it's just boundaries for the sake of boundaries just because we feel like it. That's not healthy.

I agree with you that there is a possibility of him being manipulated, but there's also a possibility that she's really feeling like she doesn't want to be in a relationship with this new guy, because he's gone overboard with the "my way or the highway" stuff.

There's a balance. You have to know that overcompensating is something that men specialize in. And what happens if the man overcompensates when setting boundaries? He isolates himself and doesn't let her have a say in the marriage. His attempts to not be a doormat make her a doormat or at the very least isolates him from his wife. That's not healthy either. 

Maybe you know more about the situation than I do. If so, cool. But there's 2 sides here. Both should be considered to give the best advice.


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## Crazy8 (Jun 1, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Mike made the choice to 'Man Up' based directly on input from his wife.
> 
> This isn't about a guy not doing enough for, or paying attention to his wife. This is about a guy whose wife simply is no longer into him ... and she wishes that wasn't the case.
> 
> But nonetheless, she is not going to go along quietly with ANY changes that he makes that directly impacts her.


I don't know, man.

I think with the attitude this way...yikes. 

I'd like to see the divorce stats of those who "man-up" this way. I'm betting they're pretty high. Things done with the best of intentions can go too far.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

tacoma said:


> This whole thing is bull****.
> 
> Why do women do this?
> 
> ...


I thoroughly agree with your asterisk laden assessment. But I also don't doubt that all of this resistance is a direct result that she KNOWS what he's doing. 

This is why I advocate NOT discussing any kind of 'Man Up' strategy whatsoever, with a spouse.

And moreover, this isn't new ... Mike can correct, but I believe this pattern of behavior is somewhat common. She's on the fence ... and I don't think she knows how to get off the fence.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Crazy8 said:


> I don't know, man.
> 
> I think with the attitude this way...yikes.
> 
> I'd like to see the divorce stats of those who "man-up" this way. I'm betting they're pretty high. Things done with the best of intentions can go too far.


Which is where I part company with many others. I don't believe for a moment that 'Manning Up' is a marriage saving strategy


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Crazy8 said:


> *But the purpose isn't for a wife to lose her husband.* The point is for the man to take the lead in the relationship. You don't have to be a jerk to make that happen. All that's needed is a firm hand, and knowing when to push back. It has to be focused. If it's not then it's just boundaries for the sake of boundaries just because we feel like it. That's not healthy.
> 
> I agree with you that there is a possibility of him being manipulated, but there's also a possibility that she's really feeling like she doesn't want to be in a relationship with this new guy, because he's gone overboard with the "my way or the highway" stuff.
> 
> ...


Of course Mrs Mike is losing her husband. Her husband (as she knew him) has already left the house!

Mike is transitioning through change. Lets say before the change he was MikeA and After the change he’s MikeB.

Mrs Mike has already lost MikeA. He’s gone and he’s probably gone forever.


Of course Mike could ask his wife to tell him exactly what she wants him to be. Let’s call that Mike MikeP. Guess what? If Mike ever became MikeP his wife will want him to change yet again. Not only that, instead of being his Own Man, he will be his Wife’s man!


As I see it Mike WILL grow. That’s simply not negotiable. It’s his wife’s choice as to whether she joins him in that growth or not.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> That was my point. Don't play a game unless you know the reality of the possible outcomes from playing it and are willing to accept them.
> 
> Mem, Deej, Hal, Conrad, Bob, Tac and all others might relate to this guy but they're not going to face the reality of possible outcomes as a result of their advice. They're in it for the sake of the man's pov and not necessarily the health of the relationship in general. (No offense Boyz)


None taken ... see previous post 

And that's coming from the guy that suggested engaging her and listening to what she has to say ... for the sake of her feelings, and to give him information.

She has already clearly stated ... she isn't attracted to him, and does not respect him. 

Therefore ... when he reciprocates those behaviors such as not waiting at the health club to start working out (seriously?) or not cooking a hot dog up to her expectation ... she interprets his behavior as a lack of respect.

Ironic, no?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Of course Mike could always be the man his wife wants him to be.

Or he can be the Man he wants to be.

Happiness, peace, contentment, self-respect and self-esteem do not necessarily reside in the former. In fact it seems for Mike that’s definitely NOT the case.

That latter is way worth letting even someone you love deeply go if that’s what it takes. Most especially if it means growth in self-respect and self-esteem and of course happiness, peace and contentment.


Mike’s wife really should TAKE NOTE that that man her husband is NOT a happy bunny!

She was making him UNHAPPY, SAD and MISERABLE.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Sounds to me like your wife is being dramatic because, to her, everything has become charged with some meaning that is relative to her situation. It feels like a power play, but not like a struggle for dominance, just like a struggle for stability -- at least from what I'm reading.

There's a lot that isn't being communicated between the two of you and you're going to have to talk to her to see what the actual significance of these interactions is for her, but I'm giving you an example of what could be under the surface, based on what I am reading on your thread. -- 

-- She wanted to meet you at the store, you declined. I'm guessing she felt a little rejected. 
-- She wanted to meet you to work-out at the gym, and probably thought of it as an activity you were doing together, and you started without her. I'm guessing she felt irrelevant or like she might if you had started a movie without that she thought you guys were watching together. That would feel both like rejection and like dismissal. 
-- Then, you brought up a photo that she's upset about. I'm guessing she felt poked in a vulnerable emotional space and like you were being insensitive. 
-- Then, when you decided to cook something and instead of taking into account her way of doing it when she voiced her concern, you walked away from it altogether. She was bothered about the other stuff and so she was being snippy about it instead of polite. I'm guessing she felt dismissed and unimportant and at this point like you were rejecting her because she didn't ask you in the right way, when you weren't trying to be like that but just handing her the reins. 

In my opinion, her behavior here is childish -- you offered to cook for her, she set conditions on it without being polite or gracious. You chose to step aside and let her do it herself rather than be micromanaged. She should have cooked it herself. Instead, she saw your actions -- relinquishing control to her so she can have her way without using you as a tool to get her way -- as a passive aggressive stunt. Instead of talking to you about it, she emailed you about it. Unfortunately, she's threatening and throwing a tantrum in the email instead of communicating her issue properly, probably because at this point, she doesn't feel quite safe enough to be vulnerable. Your change of behavior has her confused and feeling destabilized. Remember the goal of changing your behavior isn't to manipulate her, but change your dynamic and so if she has no idea why you are doing these things, you need to reinforce your actions with a calm and rational explanation -- that is, when she has a tantrum (which is how this seems), you explain that you're not taking snarky jabs at her, just that you don't feel mutually respected and aren't going to respond to her rudeness in that way. If she had called you at work to fight about a hot dog, that would be disrespectful of your work and would be rude. You could have just as easily emailed her back to say "I'm not sure I really understand why you're so upset about this, but we can talk about it at home." and leave it at that instead of getting upset in turn and scoffing that she had the audacity to be upset about something as trivial as a hot dog. You're escalating things. That isn't undoing Mr Nice Guy syndrome, that is being petty and dismissive of whatever it is her concern is. Yes, she's being stroppy and childish, but you don't have to do the same and ridicule her. You are also being a little childish. You could be the calm one to help create stability while you are changing your patterns, instead of reinforcing insecurity that she is feeling from being destabilized.

Do what you're doing, but read between the lines. Don't just destabilize her to manipulate her. Communicate so that what new stability emerges, is a balanced one for you both. Since you're the one trying to overhaul your interpersonal dynamic, you have to be careful that you're not just reversing things, but creating a balance.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> My husband and I wait for one another before we begin working out at the gym and neither one of us will go without the other. If I asked him to get something at the store he'd leave and get it regardless of whether he'd passed the store and would do so without any complaint. I'd wake him up in a heartbeat to fix the AC. I write several emails and call him several times while he's at work. I'd even likely complain about him not cooking my food properly or not cleaning the toilet properly.
> 
> Now...judge me on the above information alone and ask no more and what do you have?
> 
> ...


Sorry Trenton, you already killed speculation on this one in your earlier post. If we're getting blow-jobs, and having our needs met ... we will give you the world, and even cook your hot dog exactly how you like it.

What we know is she isn't happy with who he was happy being ... That's never a good place to start.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Trenton said:


> He could also be the man you all want him to be which is, in fact, what you're advocating for.


:sleeping:


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Trenton said:


> My point being that it's easy to make assumptions and offer blanket support but we know nothing about the actual dynamics of their relationship so we can't truly address it


Well, yeah, but if we all abided by that they'd have to shut the site down


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Mem, Deej, Hal, Conrad, Bob, Tac and all others might relate to this guy but they're not going to face the reality of possible outcomes as a result of their advice. They're in it for the sake of the man's pov and not necessarily the health of the relationship in general. (No offense Boyz)


Trenton,

I don't think it is fair to assume that our intention is to stand up for the sake of the man's POV, and not necessarily the relationship in general. There is often a disconnect in these types of discussions, but I usually agree that the POV you convey is a critical part of the equation. I wish I could've been clearer in the previous thread when reminding Mike that his relationship will flourish with changes, as long as his changes are those that will lead her to respect and admire him, instead of her previous cutting remarks.

Sorry, with this newest set of situations, I think that the vision of a better marriage is falling to the side, inferior to the changes that Mike is trying to make. Never, ever allow her to feel hurt or confused without offering clarity. Deejo's advice was perfect, in my opinion. As I said in the previous thread, Mike is trying to interject a new dynamic, but one that is attractive and masculine. She has seen years of behaviors that led her to hold a strongly negative view of him, based on her own words. Almost all of her words in this thread suggest confusion, testing. It is possible to value her feelings, and answer doubts, while still growing as a man. She wasn't born with a mature, evolved understanding of what makes a man an attractive husband. Mike admits that he struggled with being this before. While he is changing, he owns the whole process of change, along with making sure that she understands what he is doing, and even seeking her regular input on it.

I'm excited that he gave us an update. None of us have the perfect answers, but this is a great opportunity to use these new situations to regroup and learn.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

This is why I really think TAM is a good thing...there are so many perspectives and ideas about things that you really get to see many side to each situation.

Moxy...

I can definitely see where you are coming from when descibing your thoughts on where my wifes persective might be... and I can see that as a valid point...and calling me out for being a little childish might not be right though... hear me out.

- My not meeting her at the store was me not doing what I have in the past which is jump to please her...and I truly was closer to the gym then to her...Not unreasonable to say no, since it wasn't a very important thing that NEEDED to be done then...small boundary

- She wanted to workout with me...that could be...but I was there 20 minutes before her and would have looked kinda stupid just hanging out instead of getting going...on the other hand she didn't simply tell me that, she did what she often does, accused instead of stating...That to me was another boundary moment, but I didn't push I just held and went with it...

- My bringing up the photo was because I thought they were nice...I really find my wife beautiful...she felt differently about the photo and stated that she felt betrayed by her friend...my bringing it up was not a shot at her...it was to say something nice about it...she took it as a shot and transfered her anger at her friend to me...Old me would have taken that...New me felt it was crossing boundary # 3

- Last, (and honestly to me least), she decided to tell me that she doesn't like the hot dogs when I cook them because I don't cook hot dogs right...I attempted to find out the "right" way to cook them and she got mad...I attempted a second time to ask her to help me adjust the way they would be cooked, she got madder...at that point I chose to release control of her dinner back to her...so that she could cook them to her liking instead of me doing it and being told that I did them wrong again (She is fond of saying something to my daughter...but would be pissed if I said it to her "you get what you get, and you don't get upset.") I have always been very conscious of her likes and dislikes and have always taken them into account.

So even after she has pushed me and I have set boundaries...small ones, but I felt necessary ones...she chose to get pissed about a hot dog and email me at work...which again I feel is just a manipulation on her part to gain back her lost sense of control over me.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

MPDBlues said:


> ...then I get this email:
> 
> "I just want you to know that I think there is a big difference between you asserting yourself and you not caring to simply cook my food the way that I prefer to eat it. I would and do pay attention to your likes and dislikes. I was not asking for the world. Let me know if this is how things are now (you're way or no way). A very big reason I fell in love with you was because you were so considerate. Keep chipping away like you are and soon there well be nothing left but resentment. I am not a child and do not need to be taught petty lessons. I understand you want to speak up about things but be very careful for what and how. I don't even recognize the person I married. This is not a threat just a fact. I may not be able to bend as far as you think without breaking."


In my opinion, she is telling you some really valuable things in this email, representing far more time in thought than it took to email it. 

My take - she's telling you that she supports the need for you to express your individuality, but the actual changes that you need to make, in her opinion, are pretty minimal. She fell in love with you because of some of the characteristics that could dissapear if you take a hard line on your growth.

Not every exhange needs to be an issue that you exert the new you. Sometimes, its okay to be the guy you always have been. The key, I believe, is to pick the key examples that make you feel small, inferior, and unhappy. The thoughts that are running around in your head, in evaluating her comments in a way that you never did, are good, but what I'm saying is that this mental evaluation of her comments is what is the most important part of the recipe for a while. Being aware of the meaning of each exchange, instead of simply letting her tests or criticisms lead you on a leash. Right now, you might just be simply reacting to every one, whereas my opinion is that you need to be evaluating each one, and only moving on the ones that matter. Start trying to react to some of the exchanges that hurt, aand gauge her response. Affirm when necessary. She will start noticing, I believe. In training courses I have taken through work, we refer to this as "trimming the spikes", where you reshape the dynamics of the relationship over time into something that is smooth, and free of friction. These occasional changes will be noticed in a really big way. You'll learn what works (for both of you) and what doesn't.

I think that this is part of what she is telling you in this email. Don't change who you are. Just be constantly aware, evaluating, until it becomes who you are as a man.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Do we even know why she fell in love with him though?


When a person comes to a site like this, unfortunately, we only get their input. Here's what Mike said:

_She told me the other night with tears in her eyes that she finds me unattractive because of the way I laugh and giggle at times ..... and she wishes that I would change it so that she would be more attracted to me, that she desperately WANTS to be attracted to me, because she loves me. But...I'm beginning to see that this is about WAY more than just my laugh...
_

Something tells me that women in anger, like the OP's wife, might not understand how a husband will usually interpret this. For a man, this is usually a crushing blow to hear, because we assume that a wife wouldn't say that she is not attracted to us unless the comment means a whole lot more.

In the previous thread, it was obvious that Mike was hurting. It was pretty safe to assume that she wouldn't be saying such a thing at the moment she said "I do" also, so her opinion has evolved. It would have been balanced if he received a blend of information from people of both genders, but men will invariably speak about the qualities that we strive for. My opinion is that many men will focus so much on trying to avoid the cultural labels of controlling, unsupportive, and those that support a woman's right to self-actualization, we can forget about the positive things that we can bring to the marriage. A common modern teaching is this "manning up". Personally, I think that this largely individual traits, and not marriage-building traits.

When she begins to talk about traits within him that are unattractive, I think it is time to start focusing on attractive, masculine traits. But the only traits that should be focused on are the traits that build new life into the marriage. You can't get there without including her in every step of the process. From your comment earlier, I was afraid that your assumption is that every time a guy talks about being stronger, you might be assuming that it is talking about games and manning up. As part of my own premarital counseling, ending with a traditional Muskogee Creek engagement ceremony, the idea behind being a stronger, decisive man is to build a balanced, thriving marital spirit.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> Moxy...
> 
> I can definitely see where you are coming from when descibing your thoughts on where my wifes persective might be... and I can see that as a valid point...and calling me out for being a little childish might not be right though... hear me out.
> 
> ...


MPD, I don't think that everything you're doing is childish, just the response to the hot dog email; the emotionally reactionary aspect is still lingering there because this issue is just as charged for you as it is for her. You're trying to undo the dynamic you had before. It's creating instability. She's freaking out about it. That means it's working. However, your response to the email, in my opinion, loses sight of the purpose of the changes you're making and in that it is still a bit reactionary, it seems childish. I wasn't trying to slam you, just say that both of you are responding to deeper issues and just as you see her as clinging to petty issues, you could be doing a little of that, too. 

I think AFEH said some really awesome things in his post about systems theory and balancing the system and transition and would advocate looking at that post again a little more carefully. I think there is a lot of really good stuff in this thread, actually, about not being a doormat. I think you have to take care not to swing the other way about your behavior. You're undoing her belief in the status quo. That is good. But, you have to simultaneously reinforce a new dynamic to take the place of the old one. She's freaking out. Don't fall into the trap of gloating that your actions are working, just notice them and fill them with the right thing.

Analogy: Guy is used to eating junk food as his diet and wants to lose weight. Nutritionist takes away all the junk food. When Guy isn't eating junk food, Nutritionist celebrates that he has kicked the junk food habit. In the meantime, Nutritionist hasn't given Guy a healthy alternative, so Guy just freaks out because he's starving all the time and thinks it's never going to get better. It's like withdrawal and weak transition all at once. Nutritionist needs to give Guy something to hold on to, instead, to condition Guy to make healthier choices rather than freak out at the loss of the old options.

Now, you're not a resource or a Daddy, but, since you're the one changing the dynamic, part of taking charge is making sure she isn't drowning in withdrawal, right? As you initiated the change, the greater share of work facilitating that change should be yours because it serves your interests. I don't know if that helps, but I hope it helps clarify where I was going with what I said.


Let me comment on those same events with this in mind. Again, lots of conjecture and you'd have to actually talk to her to see if this was indeed was going on with her or not, but this is just what I'm seeing.


 Not meeting her at the store -- good for you, panicky for her. Glad you did it; serves your agenda and the relationship change agenda. This is good boundary setting by you, in my opinion. You caused her necessary discomfort.


 Working out without her -- good for you, panicky for her. You could have waited. Not a huge deal. Serves your agenda, but maybe not the relationship agenda. I don't think you did anything wrong here, but I think she is feeling insecure and doesn't know what to make of it and her feelings were hurt. She's used to you looking out for her feelings so this felt like a blow to her. Was the discomfort you caused her necessary? You be the judge of that.


 Bringing up photo -- Good for you, panicky for her. She probably got over panicky because the feelings were compounded. Nothing wrong with you bringing it up. You were just being nice and trying to connect with her, but she can't see that because she's insecure from all the changes and doesn't know how to interpret things and is on the defensive. This is meant to serve the relationship agenda, but she can't see it because she's trying to regain stability. What a nice thing you said about her here. Did you say that to her? She was insecure, doubly insecure because of the dynamic, and maybe didn't get it. When she got mad, you could have called her out on it, right? Like, "I know you're mad at your friend and getting a bit irritated, but, you're hot and l like that picture of you; be mad at your friend all you like, but just know that I was complimenting you and now you're making me not want to compliment you because you're being snippy." (in whatever words make sense to you).

Again, I'm not saying that you should cater to her and feed her ego, just trying to walk you through what could have been going on. Remember, you've upset the apple cart (with good reason) and you've got trust in your ability to restructure things, but she's lost control and hasn't yet accepted your control and she's just freaking out, so everything feels like a big deal to her. Recognize that AS you're making the changes. 


 I think your response to her in the cooking moment was good. You handled it calmly and rationally. I think she did not. I think she read into it and got stroppy. You didn't baby her. Good for you, good for the relationship. However, I think that you should keep in mind WHY she reacted the way she did, so that you can continue to guide this relationship to a better and more balanced place. Her reaction here was just coming from a place of instability/insecurity in the new dynamic (as evidenced by her email to you, a tantrum to try and regain control).


 However, I think you felt disappointed in her response here and when you got the email from her and were sorta scoffing at it, that was the thing I thought was childish. She had a tantrum when you did what you did because she is reacting to the instability in the relationship. Yes. Don't gloat that this is working to your advantage, don't scoff that she is being foolish, just recognize where it fits in the overall agenda of your goal. Your goal = relationship dynamic overhaul. 

This means you get more empowerment and the relationship is balanced. This does not mean you get more empowerment and allow her to feel belittled (someone else raised that on this thread earlier). I am not saying you're doing that, but I think there are two parts 1)you getting some power and 2) you recalibrating/dealing with the relationship. Your response to her email suggests losing sight of the bigger goal in favor of seeing the smaller one; and someone else said that here, too -- don't lose the war by putting your sights on just the battle. 

Yes, she's manipulating you because it's a power play to her and a little bit to you -- and you see it, so handle it without gloating or scoffing. You're trying to regain your power to balance the relationship in a new way; she's trying to take back that power because she felt stable in the old way and feels insecure during the transition to the new balance because she doesn't see where it's going. You know to see the instability; she's just reacting to the instability because she doesn't. Use that to BUILD trust, because if you destabilize things without giving her something to hold on to, then your plan might not work. Nutritionist needs to give Guy a salad to replace the cheeseburger because without either, Guy will starve in compliance and die or sabotage the diet in desperation.



You have set some boundaries. You should celebrate those victories! And be proud. But, remember not to do so at her expense or at the expense of the relationship you're trying to save, it's a subtle thing but an important one. Don't forget that she's a person with feelings and stuff, too. Your hot dog cooking moment totally rocked! However, it was wrapped up in all the other stuff and ignoring that and just reacting ("oh my god, can you believe the ridiculousness!" -- see the title of your post) is the thing that I referred to as childish, as in naive and short-sighted, and etc. Again, YOU are not childish, just that action is, imo. Is it a defense mechanism -- you're disappointed in her and now your guards are up, a little, too?

I am glad you're trying to balance the relationship a bit more evenly and I bet it will be good for you and good for your wife once you get through to the new thing. Just watch where you're going through the transition. 

Anyway, I hope that makes sense. I, too, am learning a lot about boundaries and power balances. So, I'm not trying to slam you, just sharing what I think might help. I've been a doormat in my marriage and in my family relationships and I'm trying to undo it, myself. The transition period is tough. It's resulted in estrangement in my case, but, I hope it doesn't in yours. 

Gain back some of your power! BUT, be wary of becoming the opposite of Mr Nice Guy. Don't sacrifice your compassion in favor of insensitivity because you want to be Mr Awesome, not Mr Awful. You can get what you want, balance of power and somewhat equal partnership without complete dominance, by keeping your eye on the bigger picture. I bet you like her strength. You don't want to kill it, you just want her not to be a tyrant, right? You don't want to knock her off the pedestal so you can stand on it, just so that neither of you are standing on it and both of you have equal footing...right? As you set your boundaries, just keep in mind what goal your serving, the small one (regaining power) or the big one (balancing relationship). That's kinda what I mean. 

I'm rambling & my structure sucks, so, I better end my post.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I can read and I did read it all, I promise. I also read that she did wonder where the man she fell in love with was. So how has he changed?
> 
> We only get one perspective if we limit our advice to what is before us...you begin to ask questions and you get a better picture. It may not be the whole picture but it is closer.


Sorry, I'm really not following. He did describe through the thread how he changed through the years, many times, at least through the lens of his own perception. You may be seeking to know more about the qualitative actions, and supportive behaviors, but many men will understand the similarities in how he describes his perceived role in the relationship as it evolved. It may be helpful to ask the questions you wish to ask, instead of training others in how to get the answers that you feel to be important. I promise, I will not assume that you have a gender-based agenda.

To explain some background on why I commented on the OPs evolving role, as he perceived it, in his marriage, my wife put it like this: In our culture, there is a uniform focus on the self-actualization of a woman in today's world. It is supported by the media, our schools, and our modern upbringing. This is completely positive, and needed, given our history as a culture. No criticism intended. Because of this cultural message, if a woman says that her husband is controlling, domineering, it evokes a visceral reaction from other women. She comes to a therapy session, or a group setting, and says this, other women will instinctively understand how she feels. A young, married woman can hopefully use this positive cultural foundation toward her own self-actualization in marriage. At best, the drumbeat of our culture tells her husband that he should support it. He should fear the negative labelling that comes from not supporting it. If he asks what cultural mantra he is supposed to march to for his own self-actualization in this paradigm, there isn't a consistent answer. In fact, most people will bring out the magnifying glass and do a second look, a third look, or more just to make sure he isn't really saying that he is trying to take advantage of her self-actualization journey. 

My wife said that it just never occurred to her that she and the culture were constantly sending mixed signals to me. She needs to be respected in her ability to lead, but I need to lead just enough to be attractive to her. She needs freedom to choose her own way in some situations, but she'll frown on me if I don't know when she needs me to be decisive. Be sensitive and caring concerning her sexual needs, but know when she needs aggressiveness. For good or ill, that is our culture. We can say that open communication should solve all of these issues, but I think that it should be possible to suggest ways that a man can find the right inner balance that benefits both his marriage, and himself. 

The great thing about a site like this is that if people wish to dig deeper in a thread, they can.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

wow...moxy...that was realy...wow in a good way. Thanks

I was in the process of typing up this long post about what happened when I got home, and ditched it because it was crappy. 

So I went back and read through everything again...It was...eye opening. From DEEJO, to AFEH, and especially the point/counter-point from Trenton and Halien...and then moxy, again wow...lol

Simply stated, I talked with my wife when I got home and when she got heated, I tried to stay calm...I just tried to be open and honest about things...I stuck to a lot of questions without mentioning feelings...tried to be logical, she was mostly emotional...still angry, but more hurt and scared. She felt I was trying to knock her down instead of level us off...

A lot of the comments from today, here, about both she and I were dead on...I'm feeling quite a bit humbled, by all, my wife included. She really got me with a few of the things she said about how she has been trying to be better too...looking back at yesterday I wasn't perfect, I could have been kinder, I made assumptions, and read into things and she admitted the same...When we both talked about the things that happened and really explained what we were each trying to do it started to cool down between us in a good way, and I think we both began to see each others points. I have been reading too much into some of the things she has done, because of my past experiences and how she has been before, and she has made assumptions based on how I am changing the way I respond to things differently.

Like has been stated by others before, she is a person with feelings and concerns, and I shouldn't forget that. I think I lost sight of that, in my attempts to set boundaries...I think I may be overcompensating, trying to be the ulti-man...instead of simply being a man.

We worked through it ok...both had our say, without apologies, from either side (I realize that I'm ok with that)...She admitted that she feels she has been in charge for years and is having a hard time giving up total control. She actually told me she didn't want me to apologize, she likes me being more assertive, even when she hates it...lol. She just felt I was going a bit overboard...and I can see that more clearly now. especially after re-reading this. We both agreed, going forward, to try and express things simply when they happen instead of going cold shoulder and letting things build. I'm hopeful...I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks again to everyone for sharing. I don't think I will be posting the same way again...

P.S. I kinda made an off hand comment here in an earlier post about having a big head...and now I see that I did. I think I may have let my ego have a little too much room and it got a litte too big. I just finished the Awareness book and started re-reading it...it's a lot of information to digest I may read it quite a few times I think, before it all sinks in. I am almost done with NMMNG...not everything there is hitting home, but some is, and just picked up MMSL which I will begin this week. I'm not the golden child I thought I was last week, lol...I may have done well in that situation, but didn't do so good in this one...learning the balance will be a challenge, I just hope we are both up to the task, because I know we both love each other very strongly.


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## OneLoveXo (Jun 5, 2012)

I think they are deeper issues at hand than just over the hot dog, did you read the email she is clearly telling you this is not just this time, and its probably no the only thing you have been doing, she says she doesn't recognize the person she married. Not to mention she said the word resentment, she is telling much more than just this hot dog fight.

You should sit down with your wife and apologize, tell her in your own word that you are sorry that you inconsiderate and that you didn't mean to be. Ask her if there are other things bothering her, if she says there is nothing, there is something, so don't stop there. Ask her again and tell her you know that there are other things that are making her unhappy and that you don't want her to be unhappy and that you are sorry you have over looked her emotions and perhaps even needs.

She is probably under stress of some sort, sometime a lady can get very irritated, but want thing you don't want is resentment. Bring her some flowers and apologize, thats a start and than talk to her, clearly there are things that are weighing her down and made her write that message.

However considering she said its not a threat, she is saying there is still chance for you to make up before she breaks, don't let it get that far, be nice to her and take some time to really talk.


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## OneLoveXo (Jun 5, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> I know we both love each other very strongly.


Very happy things all worked out!  Once in a while be sure to still have talks, sometime we forget things and its good to make sure you are both happy


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Glad to hear things are going good. Keep up the boundary work, just watch out for when it is and isn't in service of your goals. 

This is a great thread. I think I learned a lot from it. Lots of excellent discussion from lots of folks.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mike, I don’t believe wives just wake up one morning no longer having desire for their husband. There may well be something going on behind the scenes with your wife that you’re totally and absolutely unaware of. There may well be a toxic friend, an affair partner or a guy who wants to have your wife stirring up the sh!te.


If they exist they must be exposed or else you will most certainly find you are fighting a losing battle as any of these things are like a malignant cancer in a marriage.


It is far better NOT to directly confront your wife but to snoop and if you do find evidence expose it in your own time and when you are good and ready.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

OneLoveXo said:


> I think they are deeper issues at hand than just over the hot dog, did you read the email she is clearly telling you this is not just this time, and its probably no the only thing you have been doing, she says she doesn't recognize the person she married. Not to mention she said the word resentment, she is telling much more than just this hot dog fight.
> 
> You should sit down with your wife and apologize, tell her in your own word that you are sorry that you inconsiderate and that you didn't mean to be. Ask her if there are other things bothering her, if she says there is nothing, there is something, so don't stop there. Ask her again and tell her you know that there are other things that are making her unhappy and that you don't want her to be unhappy and that you are sorry you have over looked her emotions and perhaps even needs.
> 
> ...


I still think his wife is in the starting stages of a mid life crisis, the whole thing about the her being angry about the "Girls night out" Photo raises red flags for me, almost like she was worried about what might be in the pictures.

If she is going through MLC and the changes he makes are really going to piss her off, because in her mind it removes any excuse she might have to leave. At some point it won't matter, he'll get that the changes were 'Too little, too late" and that will be it. Some wives going through this realize something is wrong and roll back and forth trying to figure it out for a couple of years before dropping the bomb and leaving.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MPD,

You don't want to overdo it. I'm glad moxy helped you see this as it was the substance of my post as well.

AFEH recommends the Anthony DeMello book time and again. It's a superb book.

Within the book is this little tidbit of wisdom. DeMello talks of the ways to give pleasure. He numbers them:

1) Giving pleasure to yourself. This could include a purchase, a workout, time for you. Easy, right? (Except that for niceguys, we often forego this altogether, which is stupid)

2) Giving pleasure to others that makes you feel good about you. Charity, fixing a car, helping a friend, etc. This could even involve helping your child in crisis, etc. The key here is that the process makes you FEEL GOOD about you. When people called Mother Theresa selfish, I agreed with them. The reason she was so effective in her missionary/charity work is that it CLEARLY made her feel good about HER to do it. How it helped the other people? She wanted it to be effective, but her self image did not depend on their response.

3) Giving pleasure to others that makes you FEEL BAD about you.

Think about this one.

Think about it hard.

In your growth, the ONLY thing you are trying to do is to eliminate #3's from your interactions with your wife and the world.

The key here? If your pleasure in doing something DEPENDS on their gratitude or their response? Don't do it.

Because they may not be grateful.

If your pleasure depends on their response, then you are a co-dependent.

Not a good place to be.

BTW - cooking a hot dog the way she likes doesn't make you a co-dependent.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

allthegoodnamesaregone said:


> I still think his wife is in the starting stages of a mid life crisis, *the whole thing about the her being angry about the "Girls night out" Photo raises red flags for me, almost like she was worried about what might be in the pictures.
> *
> If she is going through MLC and the changes he makes are really going to piss her off, because in her mind it removes any excuse she might have to leave. At some point it won't matter, he'll get that the changes were 'Too little, too late" and that will be it. Some wives going through this realize something is wrong and roll back and forth trying to figure it out for a couple of years before dropping the bomb and leaving.


Yes. It was what prompted me to advise Mike to snoop on his wife.


Sometimes you've to start believing the impossible to really get to the truth of things.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

You know I am an ASS (awarenes, awareness, awareness! many of you will get that I'm sure lol) and really feeling schooled this morning...I stayed up late reading through both my posts and all the responses...My wife was, after our talk, kind and loving, no BS...She said we were good, and I could tell she meant it...we sat doing a few things together on the computer and it felt good. I know that it's not going to be like this always...hell it's only been a little while. I need to remember that more.

I am really upset with myself for being childish...and I was, thanks for the lessons all. I made this about a battle...I forgot that this isn't a quick fix, in essence it's a war (but fought with love)...I was swept up in thinking I have to the be the MAN and do it all tough, but I can be the man and still be gentle...THAT was the man my wife married...I don't want to be the man I let myself become...again...I want to modify the man I am becoming to be a mix of the best of both. I need to keep the connection to the kind, loving, gentle-hearted, compassionate man I was...without the 'Mr. Nice Guy' who was the constantly needy, dependant, annoyer. And I need to seamlessly blend in the strong, independant, trustworthy, alpha, who can rock my wifes world.

I think I became the classic example of the over compensator. I fell into the trap that was brought up here, about going to far the other way and over-thinking every situation. Last night my wife did something great...During our talk/ranting she brought up that the night of our argument when she wasn't talking to me I said "goodnight" to her...I thought I said it gently and sweetly, she heard mockingly and gloatingly (that even a word? lol), then yesterday morning I said "good morning" softly but upbeat...she heard it overly-sweetly. here's what followed:

ME "Was I smiling or showing anger, at either time?"
HER "Smiling I guess, but I thought that was you, being sarcastic"
ME "It was me just saying goodnight and good morning, again was I angry?"
HER "No I guess not, I don't know"
I just stood there and didn't say anything for a bit, no anger just waiting...
HER "Ok...can you do something for me then next time?"
ME "What would that be?"
HER "Even if I am being B!tchy and not talking, can you just say to me "I know your angry right now, but I'm not and just want to say goodnight" "

I was floored...she actually told me that she wanted me to tell her where I was, to talk to her, even if she wasn't talking to me and I realized I hadn't been doing that...I was trying to play it cool, be the tough guy. I saw from her perspective, at that point, that I was just being a hard ass with a smile...I wasn't standing my ground, I was digging in and lobbing grenades.

Our relationship in the past was vocal and open, and little by little it changed to something more emotional...her becoming controlling and resentful, and my becoming needy and over emotional. She fell in love with me for many things and found me attractive even though I was a very big guy, and I fell in love with her sweetness and kindness, her smile and her playfulness, her sexy little swagger. I forgot those things in my haze of anger, (the why me, wah-wah-wah thing).

I can already tell she is feeling more attracted to me after just a few weeks, she sees me changing myself physically and mentally and was having a hard time coming to grips with me doing so...she actually said I was looking really hot and that she didn't want a hot husband, because she was afraid she wouldn't be pretty enough to keep me...lol that felt good and bad at the same time...because I realized she is feeling really low right now and I was pushing so hard that she was feeling ground down. She wants to change for me too...even though she feels that might be an impossible task, I made it clear again that I am not asking her to do that that I want her to accept my changing me. 

I will keep reading and trying to learn to be "me" better, because that is what "I" need...but I want to keep the connection open with my wife and let her know what I'm doing and where I'm going with it, and how I want our relationship to evolve, and become the great one "we" know it can be. I know some of you will say don't give too much info to her, and I won't tell her everything, but I have seen that clamming up and acting tough isn't the same as being open but assertive. I think I like the second one much better as that can be clearly understood, it might still cause fights and anger on both sides but it's way better than the alternative which is not possible anymore.

I wanted to change the title of my post, but I think I will leave it 'as is' so that I have a reminder of what can happen when you forget there are 2 important people in each relationship. Plus I don't know if I can even do that here...lol


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's the thing.

Boys often relate conflict to anger.

"Standing up to bullies" usually means fisticuffs - or at least the willingness to engage in same.

Standing up for yourself with your wife isn't about anger.

It's about you.

It's as simple as, "I'm not ok with that"

Practice it.

It's the best response to the request/demand for a DeMello #3.


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Yes. It was what prompted me to advise Mike to snoop on his wife.
> 
> 
> Sometimes you've to start believing the impossible to really get to the truth of things.



Yep, rules of "Marriage Club", 

1- Remove all possibility of there being an OM/OW

2- Doing anything else until rule #1 has been followed is pointless.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> MPD,
> 
> You don't want to overdo it. I'm glad moxy helped you see this as it was the substance of my post as well.
> 
> ...


Love this one Conrad...bullseye!

I have read the book and, as stated earlier, I am reading it again, and probably again, because I obviously have not gleaned all that I need to...not by a long shot...lol

I know some of you are calling for me to 'snoop' but I really feel confident in saying there is not another 'anyone' in the mix...My wifes reaction to the photo's is a visceral reaction to how she looked in the photo's...she's a hairdresser...all of the girls she hangs with are younger and in her terms "beautiful skinny B!tches" she loves them dearly but knows she is jealous of them for being hot. My wife is a beautiful woman..curvy and full figured (the way I like it,) but a bit heavy right now. Since she had our daughter she has had a real hard time feeling comfortable in her own skin and has kept the weight on, and so did I until I started getting healthier...so, picture being an 40ish woman, in a service environment surrounded by attractive younger woman, with a husband who is suddenly getting thinner and stronger, mentally, and physically and having body issues on top of that. Get where I'm going?

I know it's easy to read into things here, I'm guilty of it too, but my wifes issues are very well known to me...and some of my behavior of late has absolutely exacerbated them. not for the better...and that is all part and parcel of the learning curve...which I even said to her last night...I am still learning how to be comfortable and assertive in my own skin and also how to do that without causing hurt or harm to her. I didn't focus on that as much as I should have, and have been called to task by many of you, and humbly I accept that advice, and I'll put it into practice.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Right Mike. So your wife wants to be a REAL B!TCH to you but doesn’t want you to be AFFECTED by it at all.

In fact she wants you to be REALLY REALLY NICE to her at one and the same time that she’s being REALLY REALLY NASTY to you.

She has you dancing very NICELY in tune with her music no matter how friggin dysfunctional it is.


And then YOU cap it all by ACCEPTING HER TERMS and CONDITIONS while getting her to accept NONE WHATSOEVER of yours.

She doesn’t even give you any HOPE whatsoever that she will change one little bit.



And then to TOP IT ALL OFF she wants to KEEP YOU 150 POUNDS over weight so that you DO NOT BECOME A MORE ATTRACTIVE GUY!!!


She gives NOT A DAMN about the MASSIVE HEALTH IMPLICATIONS relative to you being ALMOST TWICE THE WEIGHT you should be.


Good trade buddy. A REAL lesson to all the NICE GUYS out there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mike,

Wife gets in fight with friend and is upset. 

W: Calls Mike from store and asks if he will meet her there (subtext: this is a request for quality time - a request for quality time is a variation of "I love you, or when someone is distraught - an even more intense phrase: do you love me?")
Mike: No, I already passed the store (subtext: even though you are nicely asking for quality time, I am rejecting you)
......
W: Gets to the gym and Mike is working out. Is already feeling rejected and upset and asks why he didn't wait so they could do this activity "together" (I am getting more upset and feeling MORE rejected)
M: Your fine (subtext: I am happy, why are you acting so strangely)
W: (doesn't he even care that I am upset)

Mike,
You are going to have to better differentiate between fitness tests - which the store request was not, and a request for quality time. 

Also - hold on for a second buddy - letting your wife fully set the pace in the ILY/initiation department is a bit harsh. Zoinks Mike - if you are not initiating ANY of that - and you blow her off accidentally on this quality time stuff - ANY WOMAN - would flip out. TOTALLY flip out. 

The initiation thing should be managed yes. It is ok to let her mostly set the pace. But it is *healthy and necessary for you to initiate some amount - just guage her reaction - if she is responding enthusiastically you can safely do a little more - if she is a bit neutral do a bit less*





MPDBlues said:


> Conrad...
> 
> I think this might stem from the fact that I have been trying to change my thermostat still...I have not been chasing after her like I have for a looooong time...I have kept things "cooler" you know not saying ILY first, not calling or texting first, etc...I know this is really hard for her because I ALWAYS did that stuff...And I think she is freaked out that I have changed that aspect of me. I still do everything a good husband and father should daily.
> 
> ...


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Right Mike. So your wife wants to be a REAL B!TCH to you but doesn’t want you to be AFFECTED by it at all.
> 
> In fact she wants you to be REALLY REALLY NICE to her at one and the same time that she’s being REALLY REALLY NASTY to you.
> 
> ...


Here is a classic example of reading into things...lol (I say that with tongue firmly planted in cheek) AFEH I appreciate your zeal and passion!!

It may look that way, but I can tell you it's not. I didn't give in, or apologize, and my accepting her 'terms and condition' as you say was not me being a nice guy and not getting anything in return. To me it was HER 'accepting' my being assertive, but asking me to tell her exactly where I'm at at the moment. As was stated so succinctly by Conrad I can be strong and assertive without being mean or angry. I don't feel that was a demand, I think it was a sincere attempt to understand the process better.

As to giving me hope that she will change, "she" doesn't need to, I don't want or need her to change...I know that clearly about myself now..."I" need to change in how I am, and how I accept or don't accept certain treatment.

She has clearly stated to me that she knows that she is B!tchy a lot...I mean she KNOWS it...and she wants to change that about herself.

And as to the health thing, she is very supportive of that, even after we fought and made up, she asked why I had my jeans on still...I told her I didn't want to go to the gym and let this fight sit any longer than it had to. She told me the gym was open until 10...that I should go. And if she wasn't supportive why would she have joined as well? Just a thought...


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Wife gets in fight with friend and is upset.
> 
> ...


Thanks MEM...

I can see that very clearly now (I bolded the text)...and was able to a bit yesterday as well. After talking to my wife last night that is how she saw things, maybe not in those exact words but that was it in a nutshell. And after reading through everything I am realizing more and more just how over the edge I have been. I turned the thermostat off, not down, OFF...I thought I was just turning it down...but it was OFF...WAY too harsh...I cut her off cold turkey...and she did flip...when we talked I told her "I do truly love you" and she responded "I don't feel that right now" That hit me, in a good, 'wake up and look at what your doing' way.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MPDBlues said:


> Here is a classic example of reading into things...lol (I say that with tongue firmly planted in cheek) AFEH I appreciate your zeal and passion!!
> 
> It may look that way, but I can tell you it's not. I didn't give in, or apologize, and my accepting her 'terms and condition' as you say was not me being a nice guy and not getting anything in return. To me it was HER 'accepting' my being assertive, but asking me to tell her exactly where I'm at at the moment. As was stated so succinctly by Conrad I can be strong and assertive without being mean or angry. I don't feel that was a demand, I think it was a sincere attempt to understand the process better.
> 
> ...


Look next time your wife tells you things like “When I’m being a b!tch you will not only suck it up you will also be NICE to me” tell her it’s not going to happen that way. Tell her next time she’s deliberately and consciously provoking you, you WILL put her over your knee and give her a spanking”.


You are SUPPOSED to be establishing your boundaries. Not WORKING WITH YOUR WIFE to dismantle them.

The “contract” you’ve agreed to and signed your name to will have the very long term effect of your wife being a b!tch to you when and for whatever reason she wants. If a client p!ssed her, she’ll take it out on you. If a driver cut her up on the way to work, she’ll take it out on you. If one of her friends messes her off, she’ll take it out on you.


In fact your contract with her is to be her WHIPPING BOY.


AND YOU AGREED TO AND SIGNED UP FOR IT AND A VERY CONSCIOUS WAY!!!


No wonder she lost her ATTRACTION to you!


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

MDP, I thought she said the same thing Before you even started the "man up" stuff, so what's really changed other than her reading you the riot act after you attempted to give her what she wanted?


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

AFEH said:


> You see you and I disagree. His wife is being stupid and very much like a little child, a little girl who didn’t get her cookie.
> 
> He cannot possibly do his wife’s concerns any justice whatsoever while he’s at work. But she may well defocus him and get him emotionally charged while he’s working to put bread on the table and a roof over his family’s head.
> 
> That is utterly stupid, selfish and totally self-centred behaviour. Much like a six year old girly. A Princess.


I agree.


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Look next time your wife tells you things like “When I’m being a b!tch you will not only suck it up you will also be NICE to me” tell her it’s not going to happen that way. Tell her next time she’s deliberately and consciously provoking you, you WILL put her over your knee and give her a spanking”.
> 
> 
> You are SUPPOSED to be establishing your boundaries. Not WORKING WITH YOUR WIFE to dismantle them.
> ...



AFEH I usually enjoy your thoughts, but your last couple of responses have been truly venomous...

If you feel I've given up so much, explain it better than by just yelling about it.

Isn't the point to do just what you stated..."So your wife wants to be a REAL B!TCH to you but doesn’t want you to be AFFECTED by it at all." yes I will *not* be affected by it...I am changing me...not her...if she's going to be *****y about something she will be...the difference I am seeing is that I won't take it and be affected by it...that's not being a whipping boy...or maybe I'm wrong...it seems to happen now and then.

When she is being nice, I can be nice, when she is being *****y, I can not accept it but I can still do it without anger..I'm not capitulating to her, I'm just stating it's not acceptable behaviour, and moving on...the boundary will still be there, I just won't be getting angry about it any more.

I am now confused, From MEM's & Conrad's info I thought I was being overly aggressive in my responses, and now from AFEH I think I am pussing out...who's right, who's wrong? WTF!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Mike, you’ve agreed to let your wife take her anger out on you. No matter what the cause of her anger was! And you really think that’s ok. For me that is really weird.


Just how long do you think you are going to keep your wife’s respect for you, let alone your self-respect?


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## Crazy8 (Jun 1, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Of course Mrs Mike is losing her husband. Her husband (as she knew him) has already left the house!
> 
> Mike is transitioning through change. Lets say before the change he was MikeA and After the change he’s MikeB.
> 
> ...


Not all change is good, though.

And that crap about Mike not being his own man is just that. Crap. Asking your wife what she needs from you has nothing to do with being your own man, unless you're doing it for validation. Which that's manipulative crap if you are, and that's a problem with integrity. It's up to Mike to be his own man. 

What Mike's doing is not being a leader. It seems to me that's what you're advocating. Mike's woman doesn't trust him. How can you lead if who's being led doesn't trust you? 

This sounds like a cult rather than a viable way to save a marriage. The buzz words for this cult are to set boundaries, man-up, transitioning. What?!? Don't drink the kool-aid! It's poisoned!

It really sounds like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. This is a scorched earth strategy that in the end will leave everyone burned. It doesn't sound like Mike needs to change who he is at all. He just needs to improve a few things.

1. Don't be a doormat. Know when to push back and what's not acceptable.

2. Don't look to her for validation. Be confident enough in who you are that you don't need her validation. If you don't have confidence, get some. I'm not talking that swagger junk that everyone else is advocating. That's false bravado based on nothing. Confidence, real confidence, is born of a demonstrated ability. Get off the couch and demonstrate some ability. Then demonstrate more ability. Then more after that. Then more. After a while you have plenty of references and experiences that you're pretty sure you can handle most things. Then nothing flusters you.

3. Seek activities with other men to express yourself as a man. That will keep you in touch with your "inner dudeness". Guys who do nothing but hang out with their woman are asking for trouble. Get your crap done at home, then get out. Go be with the guys. 

4. Be a leader. Being a leader includes providing and looking after those you lead. The problem with this one is that you have to prove yourself as a leader before anyone follows you. You have to show that you can make sound decisions and have the well-being of those being led in mind with each decision.

So how is what Mike's doing showing he can lead his wife in the relationship? She doesn't trust him to have her best interest at heart. 

I'm not just talking out of my rear here. My wife was in a crappy mood for 2 days (she's pregnant) and we have a 15 month old running around. I could've beat my chest and said "I'm the man! I'm manning up! Look at me! Don't be in a bad mood when I'm around! That's my boundary!" That silly mess is trying to act like a man. Don't try to act like a man. Be a man. That's like one of those losers trying to act tough. You don't have to act tough if you already are tough.

I gave my wife a few days to work it out, then I went to her and asked her what's going on. I expected her to say "I don't know" and I would've given her my "you need to figure it out" speech. She said she wasn't feeling well, and that she was tired. I asked her if there was anything she needed, or if there was anything she needed from me. She said there wasn't. If you're married long enough, you know what's going on. I showed some initiative, and got things done she normally would've had to do. I gave her a few days off. I cooked, cleaned up, gave our baby baths for a few days, and when our baby woke up at 3 in the morning, I took care of her while my wife slept. 

During that time, we had a very bad storm. It was so bad it woke both of us up. I told my wife to stay in bed and try to go back to sleep. I ran around making sure everything was taken care of in case we took a lightning hit, got the baby, and rocked her back to sleep, made sure everything was good, and called the insurance agency the next morning to have someone look at our roof in case we had damage that only hail can cause. She didn't have to tell me a thing. Does that mean I'm whooped? Or does that mean I have a brain in my head and can take care of the needs of my wife and daughter? 

A few days later, she was a new woman. And you know what? Right now she's worshiping the ground I walk on. I don't need to do all of that anymore. All she needed was a break.

Notice anything? All of that was selfless. It showed initiative. I showed I could get it done. Do that enough. That's how a marriage changes. When I'd tell my wife what to do or what not to do, she'd do it, because she trusted me. I wasn't overbearing. I didn't need to be. And that's what I've done since she's known me. It makes it a lot easier for her to go along with decisions I make, because she trusts me with her life and the life of our 15 month old, and the life growing inside her. She knows I'm not going to do something stupid to put any of us in any danger.

I'm sure Mike will grow. But into what? Maybe a major-league selfish jerk. Nice job.


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## Crazy8 (Jun 1, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> AFEH I usually enjoy your thoughts, but your last couple of responses have been truly venomous...
> 
> If you feel I've given up so much, explain it better than by just yelling about it.
> 
> ...


What makes sense? I've expressed how some opinions just don't make sense to me, and I've said why. 

And what does your wife get out of being a *****y princess? Does it get her attention? Does it get her her way? 

There's a reason for it. What's that reason? I don't think ignoring it and not being "affected" by it is the answer. 

I mean if she's a *****y princess, that's who she is. You're not going to change it. If that's the case, then get out. The way you're going, you're losing her anyway. 

But if she's just acting like a *****y princess, you need to figure out why. Asking her would probably be too easy. But figuring out why, though a little harder, probably isn't too hard. You know her probably better than anyone. It wouldn't be difficult. 

So, which is it? Is she a *****y princess? Or is she just acting like one? If she's acting like one, call her on it. 

For example, ask her why she's angry. She'll say I want this. Tell her that she's not getting it because she's being *****y and unreasonable. You'd rather die than give her what she wants because she's being *****y and unreasonable. If that's attention, then it's attention. Walk away. If it's an object, take it with you so she can't have it. Screw her. But don't ignore it. Face it down.

I read another one of your posts where you kind of stayed even, but you faced it down. Do more of that!


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> ME "Was I smiling or showing anger, at either time?"
> HER "Smiling I guess, but I thought that was you, being sarcastic"
> ME "It was me just saying goodnight and good morning, again was I angry?"
> HER "No I guess not, I don't know"
> ...


This is good. I'm glad you guys are communicating. It looks to me like she does have a tendency to read between the lines rather than take things at face value. Maybe she isn't even aware that she is doing so. You could let her know that if you were angry you would have done xyz thing instead of sarcastically saying goodnight (which is what she assumed). She told you what would make her see your sincerity and if you tell her what would clue her in to passive aggressive behavior, then she can stop being guarded about that during the transition; of course, you're not being passive aggressive, so that is her negativity. 

The fact that she is so quick to assume the negative is a little troubling. Sounds like something is going on with her that is making her a little touchy. She's gotta learn how to communicate this and deal with it in a healthy way. That's her issue, not yours, but maybe you can just be aware of this tendency of hers -- not to tiptoe around it, but to call it when you see it (compassionately) instead of enabling it (enabling it sends you back to doormat land). 

Why is she so quick to see things negatively? Is it the instability she is feeling from the dynamic change? Is she going through something or feeling insecure? Does she have toxic friends or a poaching wanna-be OM lurking nearby? She's quick to assume the worst and that's something she needs to stop doing, too. You've dealt with your own assumptions. She also needs to deal with hers.

I'm not saying this because I think you need to do anything about it -- except for not walk on any eggshells, just saying that something is going on with her and I hope she is able to confide in you about whatever it is and I hope it isn't something destructive. Does she have a therapist/counselor or anything like that? Do you guys ever talk about personal development and stuff like that?


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Look next time your wife tells you things like “When I’m being a b!tch you will not only suck it up you will also be NICE to me” tell her it’s not going to happen that way.
> 
> You are SUPPOSED to be establishing your boundaries. Not WORKING WITH YOUR WIFE to dismantle them.


This part makes sense. At the end of the day, she assumed you were being snarky in your good-night statement. You were not. Instead of recognizing it when you clarified for her, she just gave you conditions on how to cater to her moods from then on. 

It's good that you guys communicated and didn't just jump to conclusions about things. However, she still tried to dictate terms to you, terms that I don't think you should accept entirely without question unless you want to go back to being a doormat. You can point out to her that she was in the wrong in assuming that you were being snarky. You can tell her that you appreciate her telling you how to handle her when she is in a bad mood, but rather than just trying to read her mind and act appropriately, you think that she should recognize that she is assuming and reading too much into things. You can tell her that it would help both of you if she would stop assuming you're being passive aggressive and reading into things. You can tell her that when you are angry, you will tell her outright and not do passive aggressive tings (which is what she is assuming you're doing), so she can quit making assumptions and take your words at face value instead of trying to control what your words will be. She should control herself, not you. She should find stability in trust, not in manipulation. You're changing the dynamic, so change it. Guy is asking Nutritionist for a doughnut; give her a carrot stick instead -- that is, respond to her need in a healthy way, one that is healthy for you both, rather than just responding to her need by giving her what she is used to.

I think you should be a little MORE assertive. Don't give in to her here. Don't fight about it, just communicate things from you're side so that you're on equal footing again. In this moment, you guys are on equal footing and she is saying, okay fine, I was wrong, but I'm special and instead of looking at the fact that I'm wrong, I'm going to set a condition on how you act in the future to ensure that I'm not wrong again. Um, nope. She should eat crow instead of dictating your future actions.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

MPDBlues said:


> I am now confused, From MEM's & Conrad's info I thought I was being overly aggressive in my responses, and now from AFEH I think I am pussing out...who's right, who's wrong? WTF!


You're swinging back and forth while trying to establish balance. She is still trying to be manipulative. By understanding her behavior, you can find the neutral ground. You don't have to cave in to her needs because you understand them. You should evaluate her needs to see how this fits into the spectrum of the new balance you're creating to see how you will respond. Just like you evaluate your own responses to see if it's in line with your overall goal, you have to evaluate how much you will concede to her when she starts overstepping her bounds.

You are clearly frustrated. This is a frustrating process. But, calm down and hear what's being said and take what makes sense to you. Just hear it.

Look at AFEH's response without the emphatic capitals. You talked to her about the issue and she recognized that she was being a little bit hypersensitive and snippy and assuming things; instead of saying sorry (which she should have done!), she tried to dictate what she wanted you to do for her so she wouldn't be upset. You're communicating more. This part is good. However, you have to also look at what you're communicating, what you're agreeing to. Saying good night and good morning was just fine. You did nothing wrong. She was in the wrong. She's blame shifting to avoid responsibility. Don't accept the blame she is putting on you. In response to her, you don't have to accept her version and erase yours; you can, instead, just tell her "yes, one way is me changing how I do things so you don't assume the wrong thing, but you're expecting me to read your mind with that; another way could be you not assuming so much, dear wife, and taking things at face value instead." At the end of the end of the communication, you can accept her terms, push your terms, or seek out a compromise. Mr Nice Guy always accepts The Princess's terms, Mr Assertive Guy accepts her terms when they don't compromise his dignity, sets his own when she is out of line, and compromises without compromising himself.

Don't be upset. You're doing great, but she is trying to push things back to where she has control. You've got to firmly (but not cruelly), guide things according to the balance you're seeking, which means being objective even in the face of your relief. Yes, you're relieved that you're not fighting now, but...at what cost. Necessary discomfort or needless discomfort? Necessary compromising or needless? Where does this fit in to the big picture?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Moxy,
This analysis is excellent. 





moxy said:


> You're swinging back and forth while trying to establish balance. She is still trying to be manipulative. By understanding her behavior, you can find the neutral ground. You don't have to cave in to her needs because you understand them. You should evaluate her needs to see how this fits into the spectrum of the new balance you're creating to see how you will respond. Just like you evaluate your own responses to see if it's in line with your overall goal, you have to evaluate how much you will concede to her when she starts overstepping her bounds.
> 
> You are clearly frustrated. This is a frustrating process. But, calm down and hear what's being said and take what makes sense to you. Just hear it.
> 
> ...


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

moxy said:


> This is good. I'm glad you guys are communicating. It looks to me like she does have a tendency to read between the lines rather than take things at face value. Maybe she isn't even aware that she is doing so. You could let her know that if you were angry you would have done xyz thing instead of sarcastically saying goodnight (which is what she assumed). She told you what would make her see your sincerity and if you tell her what would clue her in to passive aggressive behavior, then she can stop being guarded about that during the transition; of course, you're not being passive aggressive, so that is her negativity.
> 
> The fact that she is so quick to assume the negative is a little troubling. Sounds like something is going on with her that is making her a little touchy. She's gotta learn how to communicate this and deal with it in a healthy way. That's her issue, not yours, but maybe you can just be aware of this tendency of hers -- not to tiptoe around it, but to call it when you see it (compassionately) instead of enabling it (enabling it sends you back to doormat land).
> 
> ...


Moxy,

I'm really impressed by your replies, and the way you drill down on the unhealthy aspects of their exchanges.

When you ask why his wife is so quick to see the negative, my opinion is that you've touched on a dynamic that could easily become MPD's constant shadow throughout this process. In my relationship, my wife and I have talked about this frequently when we noticed that the relationship is veering in an unhealthy direction, and we want to address it and fix it. Seems like when there is this low level negativity, my wife is presented with a choice to interpret an unclear word or action on my part as a noble action, or a negative. She admits that being critical is a challenge that she always faces. So in cases like this, she'll so often choose to interpret my unclear action as a negative, assuming that I meant to insult or hurt her.

It took so long to address this in a way that moved us beyond blame. I think that MPD might have to call her out occasionally, if he notices that she is beginning to view him negatively as a default stance. The challenge is to shed light on this behavior, if it is there, in a way that heals, instead of bringing more conflict into the marriage. I would often encourage my wife to just ask me, and ask me often, promising that I'll be man enough to admit it if I'm being rude, and apologize.

I think that this is a cycle we all have to watch out for. What is our default interpretation of our spouse going to be, when their actions are unclear?


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## allthegoodnamesaregone (Nov 18, 2011)

Halien said:


> Moxy,
> 
> I'm really impressed by your replies, and the way you drill down on the unhealthy aspects of their exchanges.
> 
> ...


It's been my experience when ever someone makes a claim about your actions they view it as to how they would react in the same situation. EG., her claiming he was sneeringly saying good night is the reaction she would have given him if the situation were reversed. It says a great deal about her personality.....


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Seems you turned the thermostat too low. She's not filling in the blanks with affection, she's seeing your behavior as "d!ckish"...so she's also distant.

No bueno.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

This all could have been solved with a fitness test response during hot dog night.

With a smile on your face, turn to her and say...."well, dear...I know you like your wieners rock hard....but getting these ones just the way you like them is proving difficult. Come into the bedroom and I'll give you one just the way you like them.". 

Then just pick her up and carry her into the bedroom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

In all honesty, mpd.....

I think you need to notice how to detect the fitness test...and get practice on how to respond to them. The trick is to show that her mood just doesn't really bother you at all. Your in charge of your own emotional destiny. Not all "tests" from her have to be drawn out so dramatically.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MPDBlues (May 26, 2012)

moxy said:


> You're swinging back and forth while trying to establish balance. She is still trying to be manipulative. By understanding her behavior, you can find the neutral ground. You don't have to cave in to her needs because you understand them. You should evaluate her needs to see how this fits into the spectrum of the new balance you're creating to see how you will respond. Just like you evaluate your own responses to see if it's in line with your overall goal, you have to evaluate how much you will concede to her when she starts overstepping her bounds.
> 
> You are clearly frustrated. This is a frustrating process. But, calm down and hear what's being said and take what makes sense to you. Just hear it.
> 
> ...


Thanks moxy...

Your explanaition is really great...I am seeing that a lot of my frustration is steming from me not concentrating on dealing with my own issues...and not my wifes. I could see that I did revert to an extent.

So I did go back and read through the anger and see what he was trying to say, and when I looked between both his and your comments I see now where I was lacking. 

I took some time during the weekend and went to my wife. I simply told her that assuming everything from me is negative, or passive aggressive is wrong, and that the things I say are exactly how I say them. She tried to say I needed to watch that too, I didn't respond to her comment, I just continued mine and let her know that I will also be vocal from now on about when or if I am angry, that she will know it, and won't have to assume or read into anything. 

I'm starting to see the way this works much better, but sadly I am still a bonafide rookie here...As has been posted earlier in some of the responses, I am sorely lacking in my ability to recognize, differentiate and understand what is and isn't a fitness test. I am going to be re-reading that post and my own again to try and get a better grip on the process.


There is definitely an incredible learning curve on this issue for me. I obviously have some major work ahead of me...and confronting my inadequacies with the setting of the thermostat in our relationship as well as grasping the fitness tests is scaring the sh!t out of me right now...LOL I know if I can't face that fear and work through it I will be doomed to repeating the past. But honestly I am getting more comfortable with doing things that make me happier...I just need to find the balance with my wife, on my terms not hers. 

And as a response to Crazy8, thanks for the input regarding where I need improvement...As my posts have clearly proven I know I do, which is why I'm here...As to your example...If I had those tendancies naturally I wouldn't be here in the first place...lol I have had 40 years of being the "NiceGuy" and only about a month of trying to be me...I have no intention of becomming a jerk...and when called out for it, I have owned and accepted it...but cut me some slack on not being an Alpha, hell based on what I'm learning about myself I haven't even been a Delta! But I'm learning! so keep the thoughts and opinions coming, good or bad, they all make me think a little better about where I need to aim.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

she sounds unhealthy


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## joshbjoshb (Jul 11, 2011)

Holy cow. Mike - I read your posts, and saw my life story in front of me! I am going through EXACT same story. Me manning up, she being extra angry, except it seems you are farther ahead of me. I am still getting angry whenever she gets angry. I used to yell more and now some less, but still too much yelling at my side.

I can so understand how you felt when she asked you to tell her "I understand you are angry but I am not - good night." This is something my wife said few times. Basically, she is ready to surrender the fact that she is emotionally a mess, but wants you to love her anyways.

I used to think this is crazy - like AFEH thinks. I used to think - what's the hell, let her apologize, stop acting like that etc. Now I am thinking more and more that she got a real emotional mess, and perhaps I shouldn't expect so much of her... like if you wife lost legs heaven forbid you wont' expect her to do certain things... yes, it is very painful to think that your wife doesn't have the emotional legs, but this seems the case with your wife and mine to.

So yes, we can just say let's get divorce, or choose to live with her which is what we are doing.

I think that still you can never let yourself be yelled at, espcially not in public. I already walked away from her once and she got the message loud and clear.

Do understand that your wife isn't so emotionally stable like you. Most likely she needs major help. So she really doesn't understand the change you are going through. It's not that she is a bad person and is doing it on purpose - she just have no clue how to help herself!

My hope is that seeing a normal, assertive, emotionally healthy person next to her might give her the push to work on herself. Just understand this might never happen!

I am writing all of this as I am thinking. This is really new thoughts to me.


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