# Marraige builders



## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

I'm not spamming the other forum. But the Harley's play seems insane to me. The poor BS on that site are pretty much doormats. It literally fails 99.99% of the time. 

If your not familiar the 1st part of the plan calls for being a doormat. To try and act like your WS best friend and meet their needs. You are supposed to tell them to end the affair but really there is no consequence for not doing so. 

Are the Harley's really doctors? I'm so confused as to how they can promote their plan as being successful 20% of the time in the initial stage. Stage 2 is a modified 180, which is also worse than the 180 plan most posters here support.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Marriage at all cost is a prison.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

Hmm... I’ll go have a look and then maybe I will know what you mean.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Marriage at all cost is a prison.


That is their mentality.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Yup, Harley's "Plan A" is basically a "pick me dance". Which is foolish IMO.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thedope said:


> I'm not spamming the other forum. But the Harley's play seems insane to me. The poor BS on that site are pretty much doormats. It literally fails 99.99% of the time.
> 
> If your not familiar the 1st part of the plan calls for being a doormat. To try and act like your WS best friend and meet their needs. You are supposed to tell them to end the affair but really there is no consequence for not doing so.
> 
> Are the Harley's really doctors? I'm so confused as to how they can promote their plan as being successful 20% of the time in the initial stage. Stage 2 is a modified 180, which is also worse than the 180 plan most posters here support.


I used to post on the Marriage Builders forum years ago and was very active there. I quite. Not because there is a problem with the process as suggested by Dr. Harley but because the MB Forum does not really follow what the MB material (and Dr. Harley) suggests. It's been run for some time by some self appointed experts that have no clue.

Dr. Harley does suggest Plan A if the BS really wants to try for reconciliation. For women he says that Plan A should last for about 2 weeks and then to move on to Plan B. He does suggest that for men who really want to reconcile with the BW, that they do Plan A for up to 6 months if they can take it for that long. He says 6 months for men because in his experience men are more able to handle Plan A than women. Though I'm not sure I believe that. He does say that most people, men and women an only do Plan A for 2 weeks.

The MB forums are not following those guidelines. I don't know why Harley does not have someone who knows what they are doing monitoring the forum and keeping people in check. Maybe it's a liability issue for him. Don't know.

Before MB forums become what they are now, it helped a LOT of people recover their marriages after discovering an affair.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Red Sonja said:


> Yup, Harley's "Plan A" is basically a "pick me dance". Which is foolish IMO.


It works if done right and not for too long. It's basically the idea that the BS should turn their focus on improving themself. Then if their WS end the affair, the BS might agree to reconciliation. 

We tell BS's here all the time to focus on themself, on becoming a better person in every way.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> thedope said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not spamming the other forum. But the Harley's play seems insane to me. The poor BS on that site are pretty much doormats. It literally fails 99.99% of the time.
> ...


Plan A almost never works for anyone on that site. Like it just doesn't happen. We may disagree, and that's fine we can respect different opinions. However, I believe the pick me dance dies not work which is their "Plan A".


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

I think Dr Harley talks a lot of sense with the love bank concept and strategies on keeping marriages safe and healthy, and helping those who wish to improve their marriage. Of all the material on marital recovery I have found his to be the best.

As for the controversial plan A, it is for those BS who want to at least try R. The affair obviously first has to end. So plan A is a bit like a game, a carrot dangling for the waywards to see the best of their betrayed spouse. Because most wayswards don't really know what they want and what they are doing. If they don't snap out of it and don't end the affair, the BS is then advised to go dark until the wayward ends the affair, or makes it clear they are not coming back. The BS gets to protect himself by cutting off all communication and making plans for the future. 

I did the plan A and it worked like magic. My husband saw the best of me and then freaked out when I bought the one way plane tickets for me and the kids. He dumped his AP immediately. 

Now, I did the plan A because I wanted his affair to end, and knew I wanted to try R. I had no clue what the future would bring but I knew I wanted to give our marriage a chance to recover. And it did work. I did not feel humiliated by putting on a show during plan A, because the affair itself is as humiliating as something can be. But I knew what I wanted. I inderstand others may feel differently and will kick out their WS and not look back. I respect their choice but also don't give a d*mn about those people who advocate divorce as the only option and look down on us who want to try R. 

Having said this, the forum has been occupied by a bunch of nutters. I advise people to stay away. I would go as far to say that some people there are bullies.


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## SentHereForAReason (Oct 25, 2017)

I thought I read on here somewhere that the program has a high success rate but the things I guess you would have to consider ... at what cost to yourself and like mentioned here, I think you have to follow through with the Dr's advice exactly and not necessarily the people giving the advice on the boards? His exposure plan is a tough one for many to follow through with so I think it's not all roses. You do the ruthless exposure and then you follow it up with the love building.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

Aletta said:


> I think Dr Harley talks a lot of sense with the love bank concept and strategies on keeping marriages safe and healthy, and helping those who wish to improve their marriage. Of all the material on marital recovery I have found his to be the best.
> 
> As for the controversial plan A, it is for those BS who want to at least try R. The affair obviously first has to end. So plan A is a bit like a game, a carrot dangling for the waywards to see the best of their betrayed spouse. Because most wayswards don't really know what they want and what they are doing. If they don't snap out of it and don't end the affair, the BS is then advised to go dark until the wayward ends the affair, or makes it clear they are not coming back. The BS gets to protect himself by cutting off all communication and making plans for the future.
> 
> ...


I am glad you got what you wanted out of fixing your marraige.

Getting a one way ticket with your kids isn't plan A. Plan A calls for negotiation with your spouse separate from the Affair partner. In fact threatening to leave is the exact opposite of Plan A.

There is also the question of if your husband really wanted to R. Or did he just do so because you threatened to take his kids away on a plane?


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

In the MB world ... Reconciled = Not Divorced.

It's all about the $$$ ... as long as you're "not divorced", then you're still a potential customer for books, counselling and seminars. He's a snake oil salesman selling false hope ... nothing more. For men ... follow his advice at the cost of your self respect.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

This lady seems Plan A the same as I do.

https://www.chumplady.com/2014/02/m...lace-to-be-and-other-reconciliation-nonsense/


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Unless you've actually read all the materials in the program and really understood them and/or have spoken directly with Dr. Harley or one of his children (who have been taking over the day-to-day as he's aging) then I think it's ill-advised to judge his recommendations based on what is essentially other people's interpretation of it. I wouldn't rely on the MB forums for much of anything, especially not direction when attempting to break up an affair and begin R. For one thing, none of the Harleys are at all supportive of marriage at any cost. The forums over there are run by a small number of self-declared experts, and they tend to recommend things that Dr. Harley does not espouse. If you want some real help, read the books, speak to Dr. Harley directly, or get some coaching from Dr. Chalmers or Steve Harley. 

Plan A: Expose the affair to everyone all at once so that there's no way the WS and AP can hide it. Tell the WS that if they want any chance as salvaging the marriage, they have to agree (and actually follow through) with a permanent no-contact with the AP, and permanent changes to their lifestyle that will make a continuation of this affair or the beginning of another one impossible. Spend a few days/weeks cleaning up your own side of the street and working on yourself so that you feel strong and confident in your choices and know that you're a catch that any spouse would be proud to have. Also use the time to prepare for a possible Plan B by opening separate accounts, copying important papers, potentially finding a new place to live, consulting with an attorney, etc. If the WS doesn't go no-contact or seems unwilling to end the affair or work on a sustainable R and better marriage, move to Plan B.

Plan B: Separate from the WS and go completely dark. If that wakes your WS up, and they go no-contact and agree to working to R, wonderful. If not, then you're already independent, you've done your self-improvement, you're on the road to healing, and are in a much better place than you would have been if you were still with the WS and hadn't done any prep work for leaving. File for divorce and get on with your life.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thedope said:


> I'm not spamming the other forum. But the Harley's play seems insane to me. The poor BS on that site are pretty much doormats. It literally fails 99.99% of the time.
> 
> If your not familiar the 1st part of the plan calls for being a doormat. To try and act like your WS best friend and meet their needs. You are supposed to tell them to end the affair but really there is no consequence for not doing so.
> 
> Are the Harley's really doctors? I'm so confused as to how they can promote their plan as being successful 20% of the time in the initial stage. Stage 2 is a modified 180, which is also worse than the 180 plan most posters here support.


It should be called “Wealth Builders”.

Because that’s _exactly_ what it does for the Harleys.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

I think MB works for people who think of marriage as a sacred bond and should be preserved at all costs. That's quite often a strongly religious view, but not necessarily just with religious people. You see this not only with how it views reconciliation, but also with how the spouses should act within the marriage. They are encouraged to only do things that both spouses are wildly enthusiastic about. So if you like Mexican food but your spouse doesn't, then you shouldn't ever go to a Mexican restaurant. Instead, you should only go to restaurants which you are both enthusiastic about.

It seems that philosophy works for people who view the needs of the marriage as greater than their own. It's similar to how you might make great sacrifices for your children. But not everyone views marriage like that, so MB principles wouldn't be good in all cases.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes - the post below is absolutely on the money.

And in that spirit, the BS addresses this as a type of temporary insanity. 




wilson said:


> I think MB works for people who think of marriage as a sacred bond and should be preserved at all costs. That's quite often a strongly religious view, but not necessarily just with religious people. You see this not only with how it views reconciliation, but also with how the spouses should act within the marriage. They are encouraged to only do things that both spouses are wildly enthusiastic about. So if you like Mexican food but your spouse doesn't, then you shouldn't ever go to a Mexican restaurant. Instead, you should only go to restaurants which you are both enthusiastic about.
> 
> It seems that philosophy works for people who view the needs of the marriage as greater than their own. It's similar to how you might make great sacrifices for your children. But not everyone views marriage like that, so MB principles wouldn't be good in all cases.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Aletta said:


> I think Dr Harley talks a lot of sense with the love bank concept and strategies on keeping marriages safe and healthy, and helping those who wish to improve their marriage. Of all the material on marital recovery I have found his to be the best.
> 
> As for the controversial plan A, it is for those BS who want to at least try R. The affair obviously first has to end. So plan A is a bit like a game, a carrot dangling for the waywards to see the best of their betrayed spouse. Because most wayswards don't really know what they want and what they are doing. If they don't snap out of it and don't end the affair, the BS is then advised to go dark until the wayward ends the affair, or makes it clear they are not coming back. The BS gets to protect himself by cutting off all communication and making plans for the future.
> 
> ...


Isn't the threat of buying a one way ticket effectively switching to plan B?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

MB is too much reading material for me. Infidelity=deal breaker for me. No reading required.


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## Aletta (Aug 7, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Isn't the threat of buying a one way ticket effectively switching to plan B?


Yes. I got a lawyer and started working on a separation agreement, and I bought the tickets. I exposed to a colleague he closely worked with, and other people started to talk. Reality really hit him. Fantasy was crumbling very fast. He saw what he would lose.

Thing is, I wasn't bluffing. He knew I was ready to walk away. I became in control of the situation.

A pretty typical scenario according to Dr Harley.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Marriage Builders was very good at one time.

Melody Lane snuffed out all the quality posts on that site.

Tamat


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

MB is a great program. To quell the myth being perpetuated by some on this thread, Dr. Harley himself says he would not do Plan A if his spouse cheated on him. He would divorce. But he has had many men come to him who want to reconcile and will not divorce, so he developed a plan. 

I followed it myself. When my wife cheated I made her leave the house. Some on their forum said a man in Plan A should not make the woman leave. Well, she wasn't going to stay while she was bonking another man. Forget that. So I ignored their advice as far as not kicking her out goes. However, I also wrote her a tender love letter letting her know the door was open. Without begging, crying, or acting desperate I made a loving appeal. On rare occasions after she left I would send a text or do something to demonstrate my care for her like dropping off soup to her when she was sick. We wound up divorcing. A few months after the divorce her affair crumbled, and she came back remorseful. She missed me and the family. We reconciled. Plans A and B worked...for the moment.

I have read some stories in the MB forums where reconciliation took place and men who did a strong Plan A prevailed and there was lasting success. But most threads end in divorce. Still, for those who believe that marriage is sacred and vows are promises that should be kept, the program offers a plan that works if the wayward spouse snaps out of the fog. Ultimately it takes two to make it work, but those who try come out better for having tried..

Sadly, my wife went back to her cheating ways after a really ecstatic three-year recovery. When I shared with Dr. Harley that I was divorcing my wife again, he said on his radio program that I based on what she did I should divorce her, and he also mentioned that my wife had put me through hell. So that shows that he does not believe in marriage at all costs. But he does believe that marriages can last a lifetime when spouses meet each other's needs. 

Though I no longer love my exwife and will never have a relationship of any kind with her again, I am glad that the MB Program gave me tools to use for recovery after our first divorce. I believe that a short Plan A where the spouse doesn't compromise his or dignity and appear weak or needy can be effective n some situations. But that needs to be followed up with a strong Plan B that has many elements of the celebrated 180.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

Rick Blaine said:


> MB is a great program. To quell the myth being perpetuated by some on this thread, Dr. Harley himself says he would not do Plan A if his spouse cheated on him. He would divorce. But he has had many men come to him who want to reconcile and will not divorce, so he developed a plan.
> 
> I followed it myself. When my wife cheated I made her leave the house. Some on their forum said a man in Plan A should not make the woman leave. Well, she wasn't going to stay while she was bonking another man. Forget that. So I ignored their advice as far as not kicking her out goes. However, I also wrote her a tender love letter letting her know the door was open. Without begging, crying, or acting desperate I made a loving appeal. On rare occasions after she left I would send a text or do something to demonstrate my care for her like dropping off soup to her when she was sick. We wound up divorcing. A few months after the divorce her affair crumbled, and she came back remorseful. She missed me and the family. We reconciled. Plans A and B worked...for the moment.
> 
> ...


So plan A didn't work for you either. It just delayed divorce for a couple years. 

All I am saying is 99% the post I've seen from people over there who try Plan A fail.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

thedope said:


> So plan A didn't work for you either. It just delayed divorce for a couple years.
> 
> All I am saying is 99% the post I've seen from people over there who try Plan A fail.


And what's the percentage of recovery rate here at TAM on the advice given?

Probably even lower.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

3putt said:


> And what's the percentage of recovery rate here at TAM on the advice given?
> 
> Probably even lower.


This is probably correct.

However, the TAM advice is less about the marriage and more about helping a BS find their self respect, their power, to find healing, and become a better person, while simultaneously crushing the affair through extreme measures.

This puts them in a better position to evaluate whether their cheating spouse is actually demonstrating the right things to even consider reconciliation.

I would say that I have an incredibly narrow path by which I would consider reconciliation. This makes the TAM approach ideal in my view.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> This is probably correct.
> 
> However, the TAM advice is less about the marriage and more about helping a BS find their self respect, their power, to find healing, and become a better person, while simultaneously crushing the affair through extreme measures.
> 
> ...


And this is really different than MB.....how? Even Dr. H says there is a narrow path to recovery. But is can be done. Just look at LH for an example of that. He took decisive and immediate actions that MB endorses, without the knowledge of MB, and look at the results.

That being said I would never recommend the full length of Plan A for men. Just the stick, work on myself (which is in itself the carrot) and see what happens.

There's very little difference if you think about it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I would never plan A, either. 

TAM is like MB plan B on steroids. 

And yes, LH was the first to pop in my mind as well.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Melody Lane's attitude/advice is why I quit reading MB. Also mention any other books other than the Harley books and your post get deleted, as if no one else has any good relationship advice.

I still think the "questionnaires" are good tools for many relationship mismatches.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

What is "The TAM approach"? 

I mean, really it just seems to me it's like any public discussion forum === a conglomeration of experiences, ideas and concepts, dependent entirely on the perspective(s) and opinions of the {first} persons to show up on any given thread.

Commonly =

Exposure is pretty universal here {thankfully} but I've seen people advise against it.

The 180 is often mentioned here but I think the 180, as typically presented, is terrible advice for betrayed husbands. It doesn't work for men like it can work for women. Wayward wives LOVE the 180. I think the advice is just trying to trick betrayed husbands into a plan that will help them heal after the {inevitable} divorce. It doesn't really offer any chance to "save" the marriage which is the advice that is being asked for = so it's dishonest. It also puts them in limbo waiting for the affair to end, while passive-aggressively pretending to be happy about the situation and moving on in a detached manner. When it fails {and it will}, the betrayed husbands feel like a complete fool but he's cornered himself into a permanent corner of having to ACT happy about the whole situation. Seen way too many unhappy divorced men that ended up regretting failing to fight for their marriages when they had the chance. If nothing more, fighting gives them agency and helps makes any divorce more acceptable {they gave it their best fight and can always claim they actually tried versus the 180 where no one knows they tried at all}.

It's just odd that Dr. Harly gets bashed here regularly despite providing a huge amount of his information, experience, articles, ideas, and concepts up on his website free. There is just so much there and no need to buy anything. It's pretty much exactly the program my church has utilized to save marriages successfully for years == fight for as long as you can, then go dark, and honor your vows until, if it happens, you are released from them. Whereas just about every other author gets a free pass here despite not sharing anything but teaser articles, bogus hyperbole and fake testimonials about the wonderful help you'll receive if you just buy their book, CD or other materials. Even Chumpcheater and Dr. Glover get recommended here regularly, without criticism for their profit motives or their obvious 100% martial recovery failure rates; nor is it mentioned to anyone that both of them were divorced multiple times and both wayward spouses in their first marriages.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

When my marriage was in crisis, I read MB and studied some of Dr. H's ideas. No affair, but lots of problems. His love bank concept for me was good, but I preferred Chapman's 5 LL approach to making my wife feel loved and cherished.

I believe there is no "one size fits all silver bullet approach" to saving a marriage. I believe that everyone needs to learn as much as they can about relationships and figure out through 180's what works in their marriage. Seeing different approaches may give you an insight into your specific problem.

As far as Plan A Plan B, some affairs burn themself out rather quickly, and if you are willing for that to happen and you want to pick up the aftermath ashes, it may be good advice.

I think Dr, H and MB has some good ideas insight, it just does't work in every situation.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

thedope said:


> So plan A didn't work for you either. It just delayed divorce for a couple years.
> 
> All I am saying is 99% the post I've seen from people over there who try Plan A fail.


Two things: 
1) Yes, ultimately it dalayed the inevitable. But I believe that vows are sacred, and I believe in forgiveness and reconciliation so long as the offending party atones. Had I not given my exwife a second chance I feel I would have foresaken my vows. Many here will disagree, and that's fine. In my heart I tried my best to save my marriage and honor the promise I made. In both cases I was decisive, and I didn't waffle or pander to my exWife's gaslighting. In fact, I didn't give her the opportunity to gaslight. My approach was "It's either him or me. And if it's him, then you have to leave. End of discussion."

2) Though my situation ended in divorce there are success stories on MB where Plan A has worked and the marriages have happily recovered. Had some of those betrayed spouses posted here and taken advice they would be divorced. 

I agree with everyone here that marital recovery from infidelity requires a narrow path. I also believe that the betrayed spouse must act decisively and enforce the barriers every marriage should have. Squirming on a hook like a worm while ones spouse cheats is a bad strategy. Instead, without disrespectful judgments, selfish demands, and angry outbursts enforce the barriers but gently leave open the door to reconciliation if you choose to honor your vows.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Marriage to me is completely optional, and seldom desirable apart from some artificial, legislatively provided incentives. Cheating would make marriage no longer be an option for me.


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## Primrose (Mar 4, 2015)

I used to read that forum faithfully. A few months back, a betrayed wife came to the forum asking for advice regarding her WH who has a 2 year old child with his affair partner (the child was conceived during the affair).. and the moderators said that the WH should have zero contact/"parentage" with the child (with support from Dr. Harley himself). That was when I decided I could no longer support the program.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

The only thing I agree with Dr. Harley on is to expose the affair to the entire world. Other than that his "plan A" basically makes the BS a facilitator of an affair. It's just dumb.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Primrose said:


> I used to read that forum faithfully. A few months back, a betrayed wife came to the forum asking for advice regarding her WH who has a 2 year old child with his affair partner (the child was conceived during the affair).. and the moderators said that the WH should have zero contact/"parentage" with the child (with support from Dr. Harley himself). That was when I decided I could no longer support the program.



That's a no-brainer. Marriage is a commitment forsaking all others. Why does a kid needing a dad require the destruction of two families? The betrayed wife isn't obligated to share and shouldn't be shamed into doing so.

A good friend of mine firmly believes the OW mother should always put the child up for adoption in these circumstances. It's the ONLY opportunity the child has of obtaining a stable home with both a mom and dad that want that child specifically {doesn't always work out that way, divorce can happen anywhere, but it's still a chance}. 

There's no chance MM and OW will ever have a stable relationship even if he divorces his betrayed wife.

Typically, the OW keeps the baby and her MM goes back to his wife and family {as they always do} and, very often, Dad has little to no constructive contact with the child because OW mom doesn't trust or like the OM's wife around her child {why would she?}. OW continues to be a destructive presence in the marriage of MM and his betrayed wife and NO CONTACT is never actually achieved which results in that marriage, percentage-wise, being pretty much doomed and then the betrayed wife's kids end up getting a absent father that their mom doesn't like them being around as well.


The kid is best off with adopted parents. Next best alternative FOR THE KID would be for bio-mom OW to respects the marriage she wrongly interfered with and choose simply to raise the baby as a single mom, preferably, without even seeking financial assistance through extortive child support or anything. Any other choice is on the OW bio-mom. Dad's already beholden to someone else, sorry. 

Hopefully the child will understand someday when they are an adult and they can respectively and on their own seek out their bio-dad for a conversation or two. Until then bio-mom should speak respectively of the choices the child's father {and her} were faced with, take responsibility for the poor choices she made and both should be grateful for the life provided, their health and the fact abortion wasn't a route considered or taken. 

Practically speaking - if the married man's wife is given the respect and right to choose/seek some kind of workable alternative {which, like I said above, the OW is typically not capable of such but MAYBE when the love for her child kicks in down the road she'll be able to be less self-centered and entitled and such could be arranged when the child reaches school age at best}. Any such "workable alternative" would require all communication to occur between the OW and the Betrayed wife - "no contact for life" between the FORMER affair partners would be absolute. This might work best if the bio-dad lives 100's of miles away and maybe the child spends a week or even a month with bio-dad and the betrayed wife in the summers and/or the betrayed wife can facilitate a montly afternoon visit, dinner and drop off {hopefully betrayed wife doesn't have to interact much with bio-mom either}. A relationship can be maintained between father and child but day to day parenting isn't an option. However, the betrayed wife should never be required to share her husband or expose her children to the other child - it needs to be her choice.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Primrose said:


> I used to read that forum faithfully. A few months back, a betrayed wife came to the forum asking for advice regarding her WH who has a 2 year old child with his affair partner (the child was conceived during the affair).. and the moderators said that the WH should have zero contact/"parentage" with the child (with support from Dr. Harley himself). That was when I decided I could no longer support the program.


Yup. The way Harley approaches that issue is one of the areas where I strongly disagree with him. He looking after the marriage and playing the percentages but it is wrong.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

thedope said:


> I'm not spamming the other forum. But the Harley's play seems insane to me. The poor BS on that site are pretty much doormats. It literally fails 99.99% of the time.
> 
> If your not familiar the 1st part of the plan calls for being a doormat. To try and act like your WS best friend and meet their needs. You are supposed to tell them to end the affair but really there is no consequence for not doing so.
> 
> Are the Harley's really doctors? I'm so confused as to how they can promote their plan as being successful 20% of the time in the initial stage. Stage 2 is a modified 180, which is also worse than the 180 plan most posters here support.


I like his exposure element but pretty much hate the rest of his infidelity advice. Like a lot of his basis marriage advice though.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> Yup. The way Harley approaches that issue is one of the areas where I strongly disagree with him. He looking after the marriage and playing the percentages but it is wrong.


Wrong how? and to whom?? 

Certainly, the betrayed spouse and his/her kids probably prefer such advice.

You've got to remember, a marriage counselor, like Dr. Harley or marriage coaches, like me, are faced by these issues while dealing with real couples sitting in front of us saying "we {to some extent for each of them} MIGHT want to stay married and we need help figuring this situation out". Why wouldn't an advisor "play the percentages"? Why would we charge them money or take their time {I'm not charging for my help and Dr. Harley is retired so he isn't charging anyone either} if we are going to tell them - "well it's my opinion you have to take care of that child and integrate the bastard into your lives". We don't get to make that call. Instead, we are being asked whether their marriage is salvageable and, if so, how. 


Have you really read this article?  What To Do With The Child of an Affair


He doesn't appear to just be playing the percentage, but, rather, saying absent "no contact for life", based on his many years of experience, the marriage {should the couple choose to reconcile - a 'choice' that really continues for years} just won't survive AND thrive {actually recover a loving marriage of, in his terms, extraordinary care}. Notice, also, the subtext of such conversations and advice. The subext is a direct message to the betrayed spouse that they shouldn't bother recovering with their wayward spouse if the wayward won't commit to "no contact" with the OP and the OC. In real life, what that means is that the betrayed spouse is then left with {or given} the choice to decide the extent contact, if any, that will or might be actually undertaken. The wayward, should THEY want to recover, gives up that control over the situation {they are FREE to leave and spend as much time as they want with the bastard should they want to}. I've personally witnessed some extraordinary betrayed wives go to great lengths to make SOME visitation occur while maintaining "no contact" but such effort still involve a huge cost to the primary marriage and family. I agree any contact is MORE wrong than destructive contact {the kid is really better off with no parent than a 1% parent}. 

A bonus I didn't see discussed in the article = I think it's better for OW too. Not only does her health and happiness depend on getting away from the destructive relationship with the MM {that was built upon lies and deceit and would/will never work out for her} but her kid will be spared a relationship with the cheating jerk too. Mom will then be free to date and, hopefully, procure for herself a legitimate boyfriend and husband that could be a great step-dad. She'll actually be more marketable on the dating scene this way. I, for one, wouldn't want one of my sons dating a single mom raising a child with someone else's husband. 

Here's the words of an actual betrayed wife dealing with an OC and offering advice to other betrayed wives similarly situated. A voice of experience. Would you tell this betrayed wife she "is wrong"?



LynnG on Marriage Builder sometime before 2010 said:


> LINK TO THREAD.  Hiding assets, or creative accounting to save family funds from leaving the family is important to many. I'm sure each state is different, so a good laywer will be able to help you here.
> 
> Separate on paper, quit claim deeds (as below),etc. They are all legal. Don't ever allow emotions to control your finances.
> 
> ...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

IMO the MB forum has evolved into "full exposure and then kiss their ass".

It's funny if exposure doesn't work out well the advice stops.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Any advice to abandon your child, no matter how ill conceived, is evil in my sight.

Speaking as a child whose father didn't stick around.

My mom was pretty much a skank back then but I think I deserved to at least have him in my life.

I never got to even meet him and it left a permanent hole in my life.

People who abandon their bastard children can shove it up their ass sideways.
Enjoy.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Any advice to abandon your child, no matter how ill conceived, is evil in my sight.
> 
> Speaking as a child whose father didn't stick around.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you endured that. 

Did you even read the links?

It's answering the question regarding the best {and only} way to save a marital relationship when an OC is involved.

It's NOT answering the question should I abandon my child other than to say, "if you value your family/marriage more than having a relationship with the OC, you'll need to make that choice"

The article also points out that in situations where there are no children in the legitimate marriage, the bio-wayward spouse typically won't give up contact with their one and only first bio-child, so the marriage ends {as all of us would surely advise time and time again} and the wayward can do whatever they want {which will typically result in them eventually being a deadbeat wayward dad anyway}.

The article also points out that a wayward bio-mom shouldn't involve the OM bio-dad and just let her betrayed husband be the full legal father of the OC. Marriage saved and the OC gets a great father {much better than bio-dad and the guys that stick around in these situations are often some of the kindest loving men I've ever met}. Most men think raising another man's child in this situations would be awful. While it's certainly not idea, what I've learned and witnessed over the years is that, like adopted children, not sharing DNA often makes the relationship even more unique and special. Often as adults these children speak and feel wonderfully about their legal dad {the betrayed husband non-bio father} when they find out exactly what happened and realize what their dad did for them {especially after meeting the loser bio-dads years later}. These aren't "step-dads" ~ these men put their names on the birth certificate knowingly {perhaps foolishly - but, as dads go they're fantastic}

So the situations where the OW has an OC and the wayward husband also has a child or children in the primary legitimate marriage is basically the situations where waywards are being presented with the absolute choice. Neither I, nor Dr. Harley want anyone to face these horrible choices but that's the reality here. Such choice, based upon years of experience, is either abandon the OC or go be the OC and lose your marriage, family and legitimate children. Cheating wayward husband's by definition are horrible fathers and, if and when they divorce, they're even worse. They are the least likely to repent and the divorcing betrayed wife should do everything in her power to protect the children from contact with their father to the fullest extent possible {wayward dad doesn't usually fight for anything but 'his' money}. Child support to multiple women eats them up and they're much more likely to be like your father and abandon ALL the kids. 

For an advisor this is kind of like the Trolley Dilemma


Trolly Dilemma said:


> Imagine you are standing beside some tram tracks. In the distance, you spot a runaway trolley hurtling down the tracks towards five workers who cannot hear it coming. Even if they do spot it, they won’t be able to move out of the way in time.
> 
> As this disaster looms, you glance down and see a lever connected to the tracks. You realise that if you pull the lever, the tram will be diverted down a second set of tracks away from the five unsuspecting workers.
> 
> ...



In the end, someone's gonna lose. There's know room for an alternative and wayward husband's that knock up an OW and then refuse to choose their betrayed wives {and children} over the OC can also shove it out their butts sideways. IMO, it sucks telling anyone they NEED to make that choice but it's even more evil to tell a betrayed wife in these situations that the OC and it's feelings and need for a parent are more important than her and her biological children, especially after her wayward husband just crushed her putting his sexual urges and selfishness before her and their entire family. 

and, really, does the vow "forsaking all others" have an OC caveat? No, it doesn't.


Again, the OW should put the bastard up for adoption. Kids deserve a mom and a dad and it's evil for the OW not to give her child the best shot at that with carefully selected adoptive parents {open adoption is a thing now adays where adopted kids spend day(s) visiting their bio-mom over the years}. The OW is not entitled to the married bio-dad and, by extension, neither is her kid.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@Quality

You are spouting some rainbow and unicorn bs.

Abandoned, bastard kids like me have it very rough in general.

I don't give a **** that some asshat's marriage is going to suffer because he knocked up his mistress.

He is a villain and did the damage but ignoring his illegitimate child is furthering the wrong.

The reality of single mom's with bastard children is mostly dark. The men who mostly come around them are the underbelly of society.

I lived it and witnessed it for decades with other single moms with bastard kids.

Having a real father, even part time, makes a huge difference.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

thedope said:


> All I am saying is 99% the post I've seen from people over there who try Plan A fail.


That would have to be because their lame Plan A theory - becoming a doormat for your cheater in the hopes of getting him/her to 'come back to you' - is* such *an utterly ridiculous concept. Only the completely prideless would even *consider *disrespecting themselves to that level. Sadly, there are a ton of them out there.

And I have to say, if my husband and I had to actually use their terminology about 'love banks' and all that other silly stuff, we'd probably have to perform a mercy killing on each other behind the barn.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Quality said:


> What is "The TAM approach"?


Yeah, that was a question I'd wondered about. Is there one?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> @Quality
> 
> You are spouting some rainbow and unicorn bs.
> 
> ...



So we're agreeing in part. You're saying a dad would make all the difference so you promote adoption as the best, if not only, opportunity for the illegitimate child to get a good father {as well as mother, probably}.

Studies support this. Adoption isn't always perfect but it's certainly much more likely to be a better life than a "skank" mom and an absent, more likely than not, wayward father.



> The study, by sociologists at Indiana University Bloomington and the University of Connecticut, found that two-parent adoptive parents not only spend more money on their children, but they invest more time, such as reading to them, talking with their children about their problems or eating meals together.
> Link to Study


A bonus. If every OW knew that just about without a doubt her MM was going to abandon her and her child if she got pregnant in favor of his family and children, maybe she wouldn't have sex with married men, or she'd be more like to use protection. She might not conceive of trapping him with an "unwanted" pregnancy and she certainly might think twice about trying to use the kid as a wedge to eventually get her cheating man one way or another.

There's no middle ground here. Either the bastard kid gets shafted or ALL the kids get shafted. All of them have a wayward cheating father which is strike one already. There's no compromise that will work for everyone unless the betrayed wife makes an accommodation of her own free will. The betrayed wife {and her kids} matter too.

It just occurred to me. Telling the wayward they need to choose between the two worlds MAY actually result in the illegitimate child getting the father 100% when, faced with such choice, he chooses the OW and the baby over his betrayed wife and family. A "win" for the bastard and all the other kids get stuck with the underbelly of step dad market.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That would have to be because their lame Plan A theory - becoming a doormat for your cheater in the hopes of getting him/her to 'come back to you' - is* such *an utterly ridiculous concept. Only the completely prideless would even *consider *disrespecting themselves to that level. Sadly, there are a ton of them out there.



I don't think you've read Plan A. The guy trying to save his marriage that hasn't already kicked his wife to the curb is already getting walked all over. Left to his own "plan" he'll just accept responsibility and blame and continue down the path of conflict avoidance. At least Plan A has a timeline and he puts up a fight. The 180 plan is much more doormat for a man, acting like your happy for the wayward wife, just letting her go and do whatever she wants and pretending you're even thinking about dating yourself is completely disingenuous when your hearts been ripped out completely and you want nothing more than to fix your marriage.

Here's an old explanation I found by someone named Zorweb:smile2: that described Plan A and why it wasn't a doormat plan.



Zorweb Oct 27 said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------
> *PLAN A, Doormats and Lovebusters
> *
> The major mistakes I see in Plan A are:
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Laurentium said:


> Yeah, that was a question I'd wondered about. Is there one?


Not in any official capacity, but certainly a significant number of posters share the same opinion on approach.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> He does suggest that for men who really want to reconcile with the BW, that they do Plan A for up to 6 months if they can take it for that long.


 For those that do not know what the Doctor Harley’s Plan A is, it basically has the cheated on husband doing the pick me dance for up to 6 months, as the cheating wife openly dates and sleeps with the other man on a regular basis. This is insane advice and a soul killer. 



EleGirl said:


> The MB forums are not following those guidelines.


 The mods on MB forums say that in Plan A the cheated on husband should do the pick me dance for up to 2 years, as the cheating wife openly dates and sleeps with the other man on a regular basis. This advice is even more insane and even more of a soul killer. 

Although there is good advice to be had in the Doctor’s book (“His Needs, Her Needs”) and it is well worth reading, his Plan A is not one of them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@Quality

Your views are popular in many churches.

My wife had her virginity taken from her by a deacon that had authority over youth groups.

He was old enough to be her father and she was only 18.

No one protected her or looked out for her and when it came out, they blamed her as an adulteress and home wrecker.

He was married with 3 children.

If she had become pregnant, the church would have reacted the same.

Get her and her little bastard out of the way so the *******'s family will have a better chance.

They treated an 18 year old girl like crap, because, like you have said, she was a wicked and stupid OW right?

If she had his bastard, they both could bite rocks because in your view, it would be best to totally reject and alienate the 18 year old girl and her bastard than inconvenience the bastards siblings?

I'm probably going to have to ignore you from now on as you remind me of the religious men in my past that advised forgiveness by victims of molestation while the perpetrators were still sitting a couple of feet away from them and even still serving in the church.

Are OW and their bastards welcome in church with the asshats family? Or would that be too much of a drain on the poor dear's family?


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> @Quality
> 
> Your views are popular in many churches.
> 
> ...


Now you're arguing hypotheticals to bash Christianity.


If your wife, at age 18, had consensual sex with the pastor then she was an adulteress. Welcome to adulthood young lady. If I was her father, I'd be upset with my daughter and furious that such an older man in authority abused his position. I'd be pressing my daughter to pursue criminal charges and we'd be pushing for church discipline against the Pastor {for abusing his position of authority and|or being an adulterer himself}. The Pastor would be removed from his position in any church I've attended, for sure. 

If I were just a witness to this scenario and asked by the pregnant 18 year old {and likely her father - I'm not meeting with an 18 year girl alone} what she should do NOW that this situation has presented itself, I can't say exactly what I'd tell them. Through prayer and consultation with my mentor and, quite likely, professional counselor we'd come up with what we felt was the best advice for the young girl, her fetus/baby and the young girls family. I can't control the church and how it decides to deal with the pastor but no matter what occurs, the young girl and her baby, IMO, would likely be best off FAR FAR away from the Pastor and his family and any church he ever works at. She should consider adoption as a alternative that might be best for the baby {and her}. I'm never made or pressured anyone to actually give up their baby for adoption but an 18 year old carrying the baby of the town's now defrocked Pastor might oughta consider it. Absent adoption, she {and her family} might just want to move away and just raise the kid on their own and pray for the blessing of a step-dad willing to take on the child, and maybe even adopt it one day. I would NOT be suggesting adoption or moving away to save the Pastor's marriage or save him embarrassment. My focus and concern would be on the young girl, her baby and her family. 

If the 18 year old was adulterous in heart, she'd need to repent of such too. 

IF the cheating 'raping' Pastor came to me, in private, trying to discuss this matter secretly I would not participate in a cover up. I'd recommend he go home and confess to his wife {or have his wife come to us} and push him to resign, effectively immediately, with full exposure to everyone and that he better go talk to a lawyer. If he refused, I'd expose him.

If LATER, the Pastor's wife came to my wife and I for advice, we'd explore her biblical rights to divorce and probably encourage her to follow through with that. Essentially raping 18 year old parishioners isn't my idea of a wayward husband I can work with. If the wife insisted, and pressed for the best way to move forward with her wayward husband, who seems to be repenting, then I'd advise them of the importance of "no contact for life" and probably suggest he look for a new job OUT of the ministry somewhere far, far away. 

If the Pastor insisted that he was not going to abandon his fetus now residing in the OW, I'd simply inform the betrayed wife that, in my opinion and experience, outside of 'no contact for life' that their marriage would be doomed to resentment and ultimately failure. She might choose to make a go of it anyway but not with my participation. I'd give them some pointers - let the betrayed wife handle all contact, and try to make the contact more like a vacation visitation like a month over the summers versus a weekly thing. The less exchanges, the less burden on the betrayed wife. Then I'd move on to more productive situations. I'm just a volunteer and I don't have to get on the train to despair, bitterness, anger and divorce. 


Sorry I'm upsetting and triggering you so much. One of the biggest downfalls of your situation is a healthy marriage was never modeled for you. Marriage is the glue of our society much more so than children. Marriage is important. That said, I want all kids to have fathers and mothers and be loved, cherished and safe. Reality is that life is hard and tough choices sometimes have to made and priorities maintained. The views I'm expressing are figurative whereas your views are personal. I'm glad you were born. You deserved a father and if I could shake the world or wave a magic wand I'd do my best to make that a reality for every child. No child should have to endure what you did. I try to give advice that minimizes the risk of that to the greatest extent possible. As you and I both know, unrepentant wayward fathers tend to leave everyone eventually.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> @Quality
> 
> Your views are popular in many churches.
> 
> ...


I did want to reiterate, the OW and her child could go to any church they wanted other than the church somewhere far far away where the FORMER now removed from his position as Pastor and his betrayed wife decide to attend services. 

Any OW that stalks her former married man and his wife, continually showing up uninvited trying to force an unwanted relationship with her child {or otherwise interfere in his marriage}, needs psychological help AND eventually, a restraining order should be filed.

This goes both ways. A stalking OM likely needs to be dealt with the same even if he might be a bio-dad.

Also, if the Pastor wasn't removed and/or didn't resign, given your fact pattern above, I'd be leaving that UnGodly church.

I'm not Catholic and nothing I've said indicates in any way I'd participate in covering up anything or making victims roll over and give empty forgiveness {forgiving is important but I respect it's a choice and try to help them work through it}. I'm totally about exposure and sharing my/our testimony with others if it might help them. If you were molested by the priesthood, I hope you were compensated and obtained some form of public acknowledgment, apology and justice. Absolutely terrible situations. My church is stocked full of former Catholics who were aghast over those situations and are now so excited to actually learn about the Bible - Guy Fauwkes be danged.


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

When I first went thru this mess with my first wife (2004), MarriageBuilders was only website I found (at least what I knew at the time) that was discussing infidelity. I read the website, got the books...Learned a lot about relationships, albeit a little too late at the time. Anyway, I tried Plan A for a few weeks & then finally pulled the trigger & started the divorce proceedings. She was deep into her new relationship & nothing I did could pull her out. Never heard from or saw her since then. She ended up marrying her OM & is still with him today.

I met someone new & got married again in 2006. Six years later, caught this spouse on line having an emotional affair with a guy several hundred miles away...someone she knew on facebook. I immediately tried Plan A again for about 6 weeks....I moved out, lived in a hotel, only had contact with her via text & talked about divorce. She initiated that I come back home...mainly because she couldnt pay the mortgage by herself...but she did end it with the OM (There is more to this story though....)

Anyway, I tried Plan A twice....I guess it worked partially the second time around. 
In defense of Dr Harley, he has said on his radio program that Plan A isnt for everyone. I think he even mentioned that he doubted if he could even implement it. 
(Btw, highly recommend the radio program)
I guess if someone really thought their marriage was worth saving (small children,health reasons, etc) then this Plan A is about the best approach to take.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jrjr said:


> When I first went thru this mess with my first wife (2004), MarriageBuilders was only website I found (at least what I knew at the time) that was discussing infidelity. I read the website, got the books...Learned a lot about relationships, albeit a little too late at the time. Anyway, I tried Plan A for a few weeks & then finally pulled the trigger & started the divorce proceedings. She was deep into her new relationship & nothing I did could pull her out. Never heard from or saw her since then. She ended up marrying her OM & is still with him today.
> 
> I met someone new & got married again in 2006. Six years later, caught this spouse on line having an emotional affair with a guy several hundred miles away...someone she knew on facebook. I immediately tried Plan A again for about 6 weeks....I moved out, lived in a hotel, only had contact with her via text & talked about divorce. She initiated that I come back home...mainly because she couldnt pay the mortgage by herself...but she did end it with the OM (There is more to this story though....)
> 
> ...


Plan A is suicide.

Aside from his exposure strategy, I disagree heavily with his take on infidelity. He mostly blames men when women cheat which is extremely unhealthy, untrue and destructive.

The best way to snap a stupid wayward awake is definitely to expose but take everything the betrayed spouse has to offer away while allowing their selfish behavior to reap the destruction it deserves.

Confident power always comes out ahead.


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Plan A is suicide.
> 
> Aside from his exposure strategy, I disagree heavily with his take on infidelity. He mostly blames men when women cheat which is extremely unhealthy, untrue and destructive.
> The best way to snap a stupid wayward awake is definitely to expose but take everything the betrayed spouse has to offer away while allowing their selfish behavior to reap the destruction it deserves.
> Confident power always comes out ahead.


I never got the impression that he blames men at all for women cheating. 
Just the oppposite, on his radio program, he regularly slams cheaters, saying that no one made them do what they did....that there is no excuse for cheating.
I've never heard him say anything about advocating any sort of doormat behavior. 
I will admit, what he says & talks about isnt nearly in the realm of the alpha male writers of the 'married man sex life primer or no more mr nice guy'....but I think it is just as effective.
I think these other books are good too....there are a lot of **** men out there that need a kick in the butt...I was one...(maybe I still am).


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jrjr said:


> I never got the impression that he blames men at all for women cheating.
> Just the oppposite, on his radio program, he regularly slams cheaters, saying that no one made them do what they did....that there is no excuse for cheating.
> I've never heard him say anything about advocating any sort of doormat behavior.
> I will admit, what he says & talks about isnt nearly in the realm of the alpha male writers of the 'married man sex life primer or no more mr nice guy'....but I think it is just as effective.
> I think these other books are good too....there are a lot of **** men out there that need a kick in the butt...I was one...(maybe I still am).


His books paint a far different image. I have never listened to his radio program.

I have animosity towards him though. I lost a close friend who took his own life while attempting plan A as his slimy skank of a wife kept stabbing him and ripping his heart out.

I knew 3 other men who also killed themselves attempting plan A.

Advising anyone to continue to have sex and romantic commitment to a person that is having sex with a scumbag is truly unhealthy and destructive on physical and emotional levels.


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> His books paint a far different image. I have never listened to his radio program.
> I have animosity towards him though. I lost a close friend who took his own life while attempting plan A as his slimy skank of a wife kept stabbing him and ripping his heart out.
> I knew 3 other men who also killed themselves attempting plan A.
> Advising anyone to continue to have sex and romantic commitment to a person that is having sex with a scumbag is truly unhealthy and destructive on physical and emotional levels.


Does Plan A really say to continue having sex with the AP? I didnt think it did.
Dr Harley does admit that he couldnt attempt Plan A himself. I believe Ive heard him on the program say it usually wont work....that most people can't do it....its too painful.
But that it is a way to wait out the affair...IF..the BS wanted to do this. Having any sort of remorse is horrible thing to live with.

Waiting out an affair is hard to do...I should know. Its a horrible feeling., it was agony..I wanted to kill myself.... but I wanted to be with my wife no matter what she did.
I realized afterward that she wasnt worth an ounce of pain. Harley has agreed with this notion on several occasions, that it is best to walk away.

I just dont want people to think that Harley has nothing to offer...he does. He taught me a lot....more than I wanted to know about myself, relationships & about infidelity.

I agree and the best advice I can give...if your spouse is cheating on you....walk away. Work it out in your mind so you have no remorse...and then just walk away.
End it in your mind. Do whatever it takes (counseling, friends, etc) to work it out in your mind.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@jrjr

I wouldn't own his books if he had nothing to offer.

Aside from bold exposure, I think his infidelity concepts and advice are pure bull ****.

He does, however, have very valuable advice that helps regular marital issues and helps build stronger marriages.


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> @jrjr
> 
> I wouldn't own his books if he had nothing to offer.
> Aside from bold exposure, I think his infidelity concepts and advice are pure bull ****.
> He does, however, have very valuable advice that helps regular marital issues and helps build stronger marriages.


I could see the argument that his Plan A approach is....too soft & gives the AP a lot of power. He warns against that & that it isnt for everyone.
I understand that it puts the BS in a weak position...a humilating one at that.

But Im uncertain what any other approach would take (?)

I do agree that the strong exposure is a must..at least for the BS mind set. 
The reality is that it made my exwife extremely mad when I told her coworkers what was going on...she convinced them I was crazy & her parents that I was trying to hurt them.
I didnt know it at the time, but it did extinguish any hopes of her coming back to me. 
I believe in her mind, she would never let it go & that reconciliation was forever off the table.

When I exposed my current wife...she also convinced her parents that I was only trying to hurt them. That it was me who made her do what she did. That I was a horrible husband.
I still think they feel that way to this day...although I can't fathom how they can be so delusional. I guess blood really is thicker than water.

So Im not really sure what the correct way is. So advocate walking away as soon as you've worked out any remorse in your mind.
That is a hard thing to do though. Not everyone can do this....I couldnt twice.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Quality said:


> Point 1
> The article also points out that a wayward bio-mom shouldn't involve the OM bio-dad and just let her betrayed husband be the full legal father of the OC. Marriage saved and the OC gets a great father {much better than bio-dad and the guys that stick around in these situations are often some of the kindest loving men I've ever met}. Most men think raising another man's child in this situations would be awful. While it's certainly not idea, what I've learned and witnessed over the years is that, like adopted children, not sharing DNA often makes the relationship even more unique and special. Often as adults these children speak and feel wonderfully about their legal dad {the betrayed husband non-bio father} when they find out exactly what happened and realize what their dad did for them {especially after meeting the loser bio-dads years later}. These aren't "step-dads" ~ these men put their names on the birth certificate knowingly {perhaps foolishly - but, as dads go they're fantastic}
> 
> 
> ...



Point 1 is quite simply the single worst thing I have ever heard or seen in my limited time on this planet. Talk about a reason to want to eat a bullet every time you looked at the damn kid. SMFH. No, not an awful situation, the 9th ring of hell and torment is a far more accurate description. Awful does not even begin to describe it. That's so generous of the lying, cheating skank of a woman to selflessly allow the **** to raise the bastard child of her affair partner.

Point 2. Why can't the skank cheating WW do the same and give the bastard child up for adoption? Why the hell would anyone in their right mind put up with that garbage?

Got to stop before I'm banned.......


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I have animosity towards him though.


You are a far nicer man than I. I want to puke every time I hear Hardly's name.

Yes, the spelling was intentional!


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

How many cheating spouses that are NOT getting THEIR god Given Needs/Rights met- as Humans-
Have Non- Cheating spouses who are NOT getting THEIR God Given Needs/ rights met as humans-

Dr. Whomevah just wants to sell books and have his radio show tuned into.

Anyone a fly on the wall in HIS bedroom?


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

sandcastle said:


> How many cheating spouses that are NOT getting THEIR god Given Needs/Rights met- as Humans-
> Have Non- Cheating spouses who are NOT getting THEIR God Given Needs/ rights met as humans-
> 
> Dr. Whomevah just wants to sell books and have his radio show tuned into.
> ...


Follow the money


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jrjr said:


> Does Plan A really say to continue having sex with the AP? .


Yes. He wants cuckold husbands to compete with the pos their faithless wives are still fing.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

I was very much helped by the MB discussion forum back in 2008, the MB discussion forum is no longer what it once was and is much less of a resource to help betrayed and wayward spouses. I view it as a great loss. 

It has lost it's relevance I believe because an inflexible orthodoxy has settled on that site and there is no longer the wide variety of experiences and view points to draw from.

Dr Harley is a practicing marriage counselor and has worked with many many couples directly, he may have a biased population since he is a born again christian, but he does have more experience than most of us. His radio show is not dogmatic like the people who dominate the MB forum. 

You should perhaps take what is worthwhile and modify it for your own use from what is written there. 

My interpretation of plan A was to make yourself a better person the kind of person the next woman would want if your marriage does not make it. Another part of my interpretation was that in parallel with plan A the OM is completely, ruthlessly and relentlessly attacked with exposure confrontation and whatever means are available. I've never seen plan A as a weakening of the betrayed spouse but rather as a strengthening. 

Tamat


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Yes. He wants cuckold husbands to compete with the pos their faithless wives are still fing.


Well, I would have to disagree with him on that issue. Maybe he argues that it is an effective way for a BS to win over the WS.
I personally don't recommend it though. I know Ive heard from his talks that he thinks it is something he couldnt do himself.

Yes I can see where it puts the BS in a humiliating position. Not only for men, but this would also be for women if they were the BS as well.
Im the first one to admit that our culture is gender biased...and has put men in a lowly position. 
No one would expect women to put up with the situations they expect men to.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> I was very much helped by the MB discussion forum back in 2008, the MB discussion forum is no longer what it once was and is much less of a resource to help betrayed and wayward spouses. I view it as a great loss.
> 
> It has lost it's relevance I believe because an inflexible orthodoxy has settled on that site and there is no longer the wide variety of experiences and view points to draw from.
> 
> ...


Sticking your penis in OM's leftovers is not strength.

I know of 4 men personally who killed themselves attempting this asshats pick me dance. Be big of him to advertise the devastating results that plan A often results in.

Like I said, his basic marital advice is pretty solid, advising anyone to compete sexually for a cheating skank against a scumbag should have legal ramifications.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Conan,

I would never recommend that anyone even kisses their wife until some time has passed for whatever virus she has to clear out. This would be long after the OM was neutralized or perhaps castrated. 

Tamat


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

I have done Plan A, and I have no regrets because at the time, I felt by fighting for my marriage I was honoring my vows. You can agree to disagree with that, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

My Plan A was not weak though. I made my wife leave the house when she wouldn't end her affair. I didn't financially support her, and I had very little interaction with her. I did let her know I still cared and left the door open to reconciliation. It worked. We remarried and had a great 3 year run until she cheated again.

But now after having a few years to reflect, I can say with certainty that I would not do Plan A again. If you read Surviving an Affair, Dr. Harley recounts the story of Sue and Jon. Sue leaves Jon for Greg. Their affair lasts for over a year, and Jon almost divorces Sue. But Dr. Harley encourages him to hold out. Sue's affair with Greg fizzles and Sue comes back to Jon unrepentant but willing to reconcile because she wants the financial support. Supposedly they reunite and their marriage is better than ever. Here's my problem with the story: I would have never taken Sue back. Clearly she is an entitled princess only out for herself. Why the heck would Jon want to stay married to her? I'd rather live the life of a celibate monk than partner with unrepentant Sue. 

Like many here, I have a fundamental problem with the double standard that applies to men with respect to Marriage Builders principles. Men are expected to Plan A for up to two years while their wives are in affairs. Women are expected to do Plan A for a four to six weeks (I may be slightly off on the number of weeks). This is because men can handle the stress better according to Dr. Harley. As Conan has demonstrated, men really can't. Nor should they. If a spouse is unwilling to end the affair, the result should be separation and divorce, not simply exposing the affair and then showing that spouse that you are a better alternative and courting a cheating spouse. To do that for 2 years is absurd and ridiculous. Pandering to a cheater for any amount of time is fundamentally wrong, and the unintended consequences of Plan A is to enable an entitled princess or a rogue who can't keep his d1ck in his pants. 

When a spouse has an affair, the approach imo should be to express one's love, ask them to end to affair, and if they don't divorce them and go dark. One can, if one wishes, leave the door to reconciliation open, but to court the cheating spouse for months and months while they are cheating is a$$ backwards. The message that the cheater gets is that he or she can always fall back on Plan B for financial support or the comfort of having the family. But how does that set up the relationship moving forward, especially given the fact that there is a very high rate of recidivism among cheaters?

I used to post on the MB site, but they have a very narrow, rigid mindset. I was banned for giving advice outside of their orthodoxy. That's their right and privilege. No hard feelings. But I must say that it's a little creepy and cultish the way they think about some things.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Rick Blaine said:


> I did let her know I still cared and left the door open to reconciliation. * It worked.* We remarried and had a great 3 year run until she cheated again.


It worked? 

Respectfully, if my WW had continued her A and I let her know I would be available as her plan B; then she eventually came back, but cheated again - I wouldn't say that "worked". I would say that it was an epic fail. Instead of reminiscing about a "great" 3 year run; I would be regretting wasting 3 more years of my life by allowing myself to be her backup plan.

Look, I admit that I think plan A is a crock of feces. I think it's a sad and pathetic form of self degradation. I know others disagree and I respect their point of view. But I don't believe your example is a plan A success story.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

badmemory said:


> It worked?
> 
> Respectfully, if my WW had continued her A and I let her know I would be available as her plan B; then she eventually came back, but cheated again - I wouldn't say that "worked". I would say that it was an epic fail. Instead of reminiscing about a "great" 3 year run; I would be regretting wasting 3 more years of my life by allowing myself to be her backup plan.
> 
> Look, I admit that I think plan A is a crock of feces. I think it's a sad and pathetic form of self degradation. I know others disagree and I respect their point of view. But I don't believe your example is a plan A success story.


You must have only read some of my post as you have missed the main thrust of it. You are focusing on one word, "worked." Way to cherry pick my post. 

Yes, I could regret the 3 year run, but you are missing the point. Plan A wasn't an epic fail. My wife was the failure for giving up on the marriage and her family. Let's put the blame where it belongs. She could have saw the recovery through but she chose not to. The bigger point is that marriage is a covenant, an unbreakable seal. Plan A did work in terms of giving our marriage a second chance. Utimately, our marriage was doomed because my ex wife's serial infidelity, not Plan A. But of course I didn't know that she was serial cheater at the time. So I gave it my best and tried to save the marriage and live up to my vows. So many people have told me that I did my part, and I have been able to move forward knowing I fought the good fight.

But in the final analysis, for the reasons I stated in the post above, I would not do Plan A again if I were to remarry and my spouse were to have an affair.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Sticking your penis in OM's leftovers is not strength.
> 
> I know of 4 men personally who killed themselves attempting this asshats pick me dance. Be big of him to advertise the devastating results that plan A often results in.
> 
> Like I said, his basic marital advice is pretty solid, advising anyone to compete sexually for a cheating skank against a scumbag should have legal ramifications.


Omg yes, that plan A garbage is totally emasculating and humiliating, I don't get why would he even suggest that as an option, ever, it is truly suicide on your soul and sad to hear men have taken their life because of it, smh



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

jrjr said:


> When I exposed my current wife...she also convinced her parents that I was only trying to hurt them. That it was me who made her do what she did. That I was a horrible husband.
> I still think they feel that way to this day...although I can't fathom how they can be so delusional. I guess blood really is thicker than water.


What is it with inlaws? Mine totally sided w her too and bought her BS, only to have to admit to them later on she was full of crap. I was very cool w them, now I only talk to them when and if absolutely necessary.... I get the whole blood thicker than water thing, is their kid, but dam don't put blinders on.
If I ever find out my daughters have an affair on a future husband I would be livid w them for a while... 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Rock_Singer (Apr 23, 2016)

CantBelieveThis said:


> What is it with inlaws? Mine totally sided w her too and bought her BS, only to have to admit to them later on she was full of crap. I was very cool w them, now I only talk to them when and if absolutely necessary.... I get the whole blood thicker than water thing, is their kid, but dam don't put blinders on.
> If I ever find out my daughters have an affair on a future husband I would be livid w them for a while...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I actually exposed to my mother-in-law.....showed her proof. She was horrified at first....but I guess after her daughter set her straight, she had a different opinion. My father-in-law though had no clue what was going on. I didnt expose to him...I thought his wife would tell him. But she didnt.... I think because the fear of him having a heart attack or something. I believe that my mother-in-law just told him that we were getting a divorce for some reason or another.

I guess one could say that my WS & I kind of worked things out....and we didnt say anything of the issues in front of my in-laws afterwards. My father-in-law passed away about 2 years later. I know my mother-in-law & my wife let him pass never knowing the real truth. Im sure to his dying day, he thought I was to blame for us almost divorcing. Blood is thicker than water.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> His books paint a far different image. I have never listened to his radio program.
> 
> I have animosity towards him though. I lost a close friend who took his own life while attempting plan A as his slimy skank of a wife kept stabbing him and ripping his heart out.
> 
> ...


You were banned from his forum, weren't you? Now you're just making stuff up. I could maybe see knowing one but you personally know 4 men that killed themselves specifically doing Plan A ~~~ surrrrrrreeee. 

You don't even seem to have read or understand Plan A at all so how would you know if any such men were truly undertaking it. Is it your claim these men were all personally being advised by Dr. Harley or were they just betrayed husband's that didn't kick their wives to the curb therefore they must be doing Plan A {eyeroll}.


I've also listened to him on his radio app a lot lately. He's got archives of searchable topics and the app works great and I've never heard him tell a betrayed spouse he had to Plan A, have sex with his wayward wife or compete with OM. Nobody HAS TO reconcile at all but if you come to him {or me} begging or simply requesting help saving your marriage then a Plan A type advice will certainly be odds on better "help" to achieve such result.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

jrjr said:


> Does Plan A really say to continue having sex with the AP?
> 
> Waiting out an affair is hard to do...I should know. Its a horrible feeling., it was agony..I wanted to kill myself.... but I wanted to be with my wife no matter what she did.


I think you answered your own question here. Dr. Harley doesn't make anyone do anything and neither do I. My experience tells me that many betrayed husbands {at least the ones seeking reconciliations} "want to be with their wives no matter what she did" and will continue to have sex with her if she's willing and wanting.

All that can be done is encouraging them to refrain until fully tested and to use condoms {to the extent they protect}. The ship has often sailed by the time I come along.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Windwalker said:


> Point 1 is quite simply the single worst thing I have ever heard or seen in my limited time on this planet. Talk about a reason to want to eat a bullet every time you looked at the damn kid. SMFH. No, not an awful situation, the 9th ring of hell and torment is a far more accurate description. Awful does not even begin to describe it. That's so generous of the lying, cheating skank of a woman to selflessly allow the **** to raise the bastard child of her affair partner.
> 
> Point 2. Why can't the skank cheating WW do the same and give the bastard child up for adoption? Why the hell would anyone in their right mind put up with that garbage?
> 
> Got to stop before I'm banned.......



Nobody is promoting the betrayed husband unknowingly raise the affair conceived child. Such suggestion would only be made to a married couple jointly seeking instruction and advise. The betrayed husband would be free to divorce, should he decide to take his biblical out, but if he stays, being the child's sole father would be a lot better than having to share custody of the child with an interloping OM. Sure it might sound nice to make the OM support the kid financially but those kind of strings to OM will eventually destroy the very tenuous marriage. Betrayed husband knowingly raising the child as his own is just better than staying married and raising the child WITH the OM.

I like the adoption choice in all such predicaments but the blank incredulous stares I get back don't go unnoticed. These are, at that time, typically the most selfish entitled persons among the human population so giving up their babies goes against their character. It's still all about them. The betrayed husband's, wanting their wives back no matter what, will typically be willing to keep the baby too and support the wayward wives decision to keep it. Unfortunately, it's only with time that adoption clearly becomes the most obvious initial best choice for the child. Immediately after the child's birth, MAYBE, such solution for the baby they can now see, love and have empathy for, could the adoption argument become more persuasive. 

Remember, we're typically being asked for help from couples that want to stay married. Nobody MAKES these people do anything.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Quality said:


> You were banned from his forum, weren't you? Now you're just making stuff up. I could maybe see knowing one but you personally know 4 men that killed themselves specifically doing Plan A ~~~ surrrrrrreeee.
> 
> You don't even seem to have read or understand Plan A at all so how would you know if any such men were truly undertaking it. Is it your claim these men were all personally being advised by Dr. Harley or were they just betrayed husband's that didn't kick their wives to the curb therefore they must be doing Plan A {eyeroll}.
> 
> ...


Take a hike. I've been involved in ministry for over 20 years and am quite familiar with plan A.


I have also known over 40 cases of infidelity. I knew the couples and witnessed what went wrong and what worked.

One of the men who killed himself was my close friend and I was a proponent of Harley's methods concerning infidelity at the time.

I seriously started questioning his methods and doing my own research and in the next 10 years after my friend killed himself, I saw 3 other men kill themselves attempting plan A while many others developed severe mental and emotional problems.

Those are the facts Jack.

I helped a good friend of mine do elements of Harley's plan with many other factors, eliminating the cuckold wimp aspects and they have been reconciling for over 10 years and have a little boy and girl now.

I speak mostly from experience. It is anecdotal but absolutely real.

Happy new year.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

sandcastle said:


> How many cheating spouses that are NOT getting THEIR god Given Needs/Rights met- as Humans-
> Have Non- Cheating spouses who are NOT getting THEIR God Given Needs/ rights met as humans-
> 
> Dr. Whomevah just wants to sell books and have his radio show tuned into.
> ...



He's retired and been married to the same woman over 50 years. They're radio show is more of a podcast that he records and produces himself, I'm guessing in his own home, with his wife and they probably pay for out of their own pocket. He's not some nationally syndicated radio host though I wish family life radio would pick him up {if he'd indeed work with Dennis Rainey????}. 

I have no idea what goes on in his bedroom but I think he's in his late 70's or 80's so probably not something I'm looking to do {be a fly on his wall}. I'm pretty sure from listening to them, unlike a lot of other famous marriage experts {Gottman and his "love lab", David Olson from Prepare & Enrich, Dr. Glover from No More Mr. Nice Guy, Tracy what's her name over at Chumplady, etc, etc) that he's never been an adulterer. 

I don't know why a Christian man that has provided FREE professional marital advice online for, it appears 20 years or so, catches much more flake than all the wayward counselors, authors and psuedo-experts that lack credibility, training, experience and only provide help online for exorbitant fees. If he were charging I don't know what would be wrong with that {other than we wouldn't all have access to debate his advice, maybe???}


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Take a hike.


Indeed!!!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I have also known over 40 cases of infidelity. I knew the couples and witnessed what went wrong and what worked.


How do you know 40 cases of infidelity so intimately?!? Can you describe your situation such that you have so much personal experience? Over my life, I can maybe think of a handful of cases where I personally knew someone that was having an affair, and in most of those cases it was a friend-of-a-friend or acquaintance. Only 2 of those cases were where I knew the couple and saw how it played out.

Or is knowing about 40 cases normal? Am I living an overly sheltered life?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Rick Blaine said:


> 2) Though my situation ended in divorce there are success stories on MB where Plan A has worked and the marriages have happily recovered. Had some of those betrayed spouses posted here and taken advice they would be divorced.


I think that's mostly because we tend to have more self respect and would never recommend to anyone to swallow their pride in order to 'win' back some lying cheater at all costs. 

But let's be honest here. Plan A is every cheater's *dream*. They get to go out and have their fun on the side, lie to their spouse and kids on a daily basis and have the thrill of romance and sexual variety and all the excitement of an illicit affair.

Then when they're caught, instead of being kicked out of the house, their betrayed spouse is bending over backward for them and acting like they're the best thing since sliced bread. They can't give them enough sex and can't tend to them enough in order to kiss the cheater's ass every single day. 

If you're a cheater, what's not not to like about _*that*_??? And if it's true, as you claim, that most marriages that used Plan A are supposedly 'happily reconciled,' it really wouldn't surprise me at all when you look at the elements of the supposed 'happy reconciliation.' You've got the BS who actually employed this pitiful farce of a plan so it's already established that they're willing to swallow their pride and self respect just to hold onto their cheater like grim death. So of course the BS is going to be happy if their cheater stayed. Lucky them!

And as far as the cheater is concerned, they're as happy as a pig in **** because they got away with their affair and their BS even rewarded them for it when they were caught! So yeah, I can certainly see why both are 'happily' reconciled - for different reasons. 

That's not 'reconciliation.' That's just the BS desperately agreeing to eat a **** sandwich (along with their self respect) every day for the rest of their lives in order to keep their cheater at home with them at all costs. Yuck.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

wilson said:


> How do you know 40 cases of infidelity so intimately?!? Can you describe your situation such that you have so much personal experience? Over my life, I can maybe think of a handful of cases where I personally knew someone that was having an affair, and in most of those cases it was a friend-of-a-friend or acquaintance. Only 2 of those cases were where I knew the couple and saw how it played out.
> 
> Or is knowing about 40 cases normal? Am I living an overly sheltered life?


Being involved in ministry has some very ugly work.

I've seen just as much crap as cops and been involved in far more of the aftermath.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Being involved in ministry has some very ugly work.
> 
> I've seen just as much crap as cops and been involved in far more of the aftermath.


That makes sense. A church is a small community and the members often turn to the leaders for advice and counseling.


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Quality said:


> I think you answered your own question here. Dr. Harley doesn't make anyone do anything and neither do I. My experience tells me that many betrayed husbands {at least the ones seeking reconciliations} "want to be with their wives no matter what she did" and will continue to have sex with her if she's willing and wanting.
> 
> All that can be done is encouraging them to refrain until fully tested and to use condoms {to the extent they protect}. The ship has often sailed by the time I come along.


Plan A is not effective most of the time because the betrayed spouse has checked out and moved on. He or she was too lazy to work on the marriage and do the work required to make it better. Instead an affair was chosen. It takes two and so very often the wayward spouse isn't interested in saving the marriage. 

I used to believe in Plan A. Up until very recently, in fact. But I have changed my position on this after deep reflection. Having followed enumerable threads at MB and here Plan A success is the exception not the rule. I don't think a betrayed spouse should enable a wayward spouse under any circumstances. Set firm boundaries and stick to them. 

That is not to say that reconciliation and recovery isn't possible after infidelity. It is and there are testimonials to prove it. But I believe the most loving and dignified way for a betrayed spouse to deal with infidelity is to quickly divorce the cheating spouse and end contact. If the betrayed spouse is willing to reconcile he or she can always leave that door open by sending a tenderly expressed letter that demonstrates love and affection and a hope for reconciliation, but that also enforces boundaries for the safety and mental health of the betrayed spouse. Going dark allows the betrayed spouse space and time to heal. If the affair crumbles and the wayward spouse comes out of the fog, the wayward spouse can reach out to the betrayed spouse. It is up to the betrayed spouse to accept or deny the betrayed spouse's offer to reconcile. 

Dr. Harley's Plan A method might work better in some cases, but I would not choose that path. Sometimes the ends don't justify the means.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Rick Blaine said:


> Dr. Harley's Plan A method might work better in some cases, but I would not choose that path. Sometimes the ends don't justify the means.


I think most people would not choose Plan A. Even if it somehow was proven to be the best way, most people wouldn't be able to go through with it. The Plan A success story would need a person who:

1. Could put on a perfect-spouse show and
2. Follow through with total nuclear exposure and 
3. Keep from going mad while their spouse continues to cheat

I don't think many people would be able to do that. Most people would be too filled with anger and hate to act like a perfect spouse. And most people who could put aside their anger enough to do it probably wouldn't have the personality to do nuclear exposure. So it seems like it takes a person with some conflicting personality types to be able to follow through with it.

So any Plan A success stories came from a self-selected group of people who decided that was the best way forward. If that worked for them, Great!, but I don't think that it would work for most people because most people don't have the personality to make it work.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I tried Plan A in 2002. My wife had 3 more affairs after that....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Take a hike. I've been involved in ministry for over 20 years and am quite familiar with plan A.
> 
> 
> I have also known over 40 cases of infidelity. I knew the couples and witnessed what went wrong and what worked.
> ...


4 suicides out of 40 couples is a HUGE failure rate. Why would you ever speak to anyone about infidelity ever again??? You're killing your supposed congregation {complete disbelieving eye-roll again}


So these were all men YOU were advising and helping, not Dr. Harley and you just supposedly supplied them the advice to do Plan A despite having little to no idea about Plan A until you supposedly went to the website a few years ago to check it out the last time you started a thread bashing marriage building. 


You've been posting here for years and nothing you've ever said gives any indication you've been the type of guy to even suggest a Dr. Harley book or program to anyone, let alone research it compared to other programs {like what?}. You've never been a betrayed husband so you would have zero reasons to understand the concepts and philosophies even had you looked over the materials over 10 years ago. Further, on 10/17/2017 you posted this advice to someone which hardly sounds like pastoral advice and I don't think you've ever mentioned being "ordained" before {you've been completely adverse to religion since you got here}.



ConanHub said:


> Have you considered learning domination? Maybe some spanking could help?
> 
> I'm actually serious. It works for some folks.


I sometimes wonder if you're that stalker guy from Arizona discussed in wired magazine and you're just carrying out your vendetta against dr harley for exposing your {"non"}-affair????


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I don't think "plan A" is simply a "pick-me dance". As I understand it, it is (emphases mine)



Marriagebuilders said:


> for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse *to totally separate from the lover* without angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments ...


In other words, demand an immediate end to the affair, *including the use of exposure*, but without getting out of control. It needs to send a message that reconciliation is _possible_, if that's what the BS wants. (As several have said, all of this only applies if the BS wants R). It needs to convey "if we do get back together, you have to promise NC, and I promise not to keep bringing this up for ever." 



> if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the *cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair* is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.
> 
> In these negotiations for total separation, *the causes of the affair should be addressed*.


*I totally respect the position of those who say that Reconciliation is simply not an option for them. 
*
For those WS who want to attempt R, I don't really see an alternative to plan A - demand no contact, but convey that the relationship is not irretrievably damaged, that mutually respectful communication is still possible. 
You can't approach a WS with a proposition of "you can come back, but you have to accept that from now on for the rest of our lives, you are the 'bad one'"


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

wilson said:


> How do you know 40 cases of infidelity so intimately?


That would not be a large number for someone who counsels couples. Unfortunately.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think Dr. Harleys strategies can work but there have to be some understood prerequisites already in action. 

The man has to be willing and able to put in more of the "heavy lifting" up front. Harley has high expectations of men and their levels of patience, IMO. 

The couple both need to be invested 100% in repair mode. If one of them is not all-in for trying, it will fail. 

The couple already have to be in agreement with and actively practicing some of his other concepts (i.e., Policy of Joint Agreement).

So I think his "plans" should only be employed when the necessary groundwork has been done sufficiently. Unfortunately, this can be the most challenging part to get past for many damaged marriages.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

CH ... it would appear that you're the latest victim of Quality (not), the cyber stalker/creeper, who continues to push his agenda to justify a terrible decision he made years ago and can't bring himself to acknowledge.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Satya said:


> I think Dr. Harleys strategies can work but there have to be some understood prerequisites already in action.
> 
> The man has to be willing and able to put in more of the "heavy lifting" up front. Harley has high expectations of men and their levels of patience, IMO.


Many betrayed husbands are Nice Guys. At least the ones who are trying to win back their cheating wife vs the men who are ready to take strong action immediately. Plan A is absolute death to the Nice Guy. Plan A is an alternate idea to a more "tough love" sort of approach which would included moving firmly towards divorce. Filing for divorce is not the same as deciding to *not* attempt R, and I think that is a point many miss about the TAM tough love approach. People seem to interpret filing for D as abandoning the marriage and family, when in fact it can be a very strong move to recover the marriage and family.

A man who is tough enough to do Harley's Plan A would be tough enough to employ Plan TAM. A Nice Guy is going to get destroyed by Plan A.



Satya said:


> The couple both need to be invested 100% in repair mode. If one of them is not all-in for trying, it will fail.


And therein lies the main problem with Plan A, which is the BS is almost never committed to true R until they are figuratively speaking dangled off the edge of the cliff to peer into the abyss they've created by their affair. Why should a WS who is having all the excitement of an affair suddenly have a complete change of heart if they aren't facing severe consequences?

I pity any BS who seeks help on the MB forums.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Thor said:


> Many betrayed husbands are Nice Guys. At least the ones who are trying to win back their cheating wife vs the men who are ready to take strong action immediately. Plan A is absolute death to the Nice Guy. Plan A is an alternate idea to a more "tough love" sort of approach which would included moving firmly towards divorce.


You've ALMOST got it, but I'd restate your sentiment like this:



revised said:


> Many betrayed husbands are nice guys. At least the ones who are trying to win back their cheating wife and show up on forums vs the men who are ready to take strong action immediately. Many are in shock, paralyzed in fear and|or begging, pleading and bargaining with their wayward wives while remaining stuck in limbo. Limbo is absolute death to the nice guy. Plan A is an alternate idea to LIMBO and attempts to get the 'nice guy' betrayed husbands that want to save their marriage to do the SINGLE MOST EFFECTIVE THING they can possibly do to actually save their marriage {EXPOSURE} while moving them gently from fear and inaction to civilly asserting themselves with boundaries to more "tough love" sort of approach which will eventually include separation {and Plan B, I guess} followed by eventual divorce.





Thor said:


> Filing for divorce is not the same as deciding to *not* attempt R, and I think that is a point many miss about the TAM tough love approach. People seem to interpret filing for D as abandoning the marriage and family, when in fact it can be a very strong move to recover the marriage and family.


It can be and while many couples do recover within or even after the divorce process it's not the only way and, IMO, it's clearly not the most effective way to save a marriage. Filing for divorce is more likely just going to result in divorce. Besides 'nice guys' rarely do this and won't be talked into it. 75% of divorces are filed by women and of the 25% filed by men, I bet half of those are because some "other woman" skank MADE him file it. 

Also, divorce isn't the biggest weapon or consequence for many a wayward wife. They think they WANT to be divorced and with their assoulmate. Filing for divorce hoping to manipulate them with such consequence is usually pretty transparent and often just makes things easier seeming for the wayward wife. You're just helping them destroy the family. Exposure is the first and best weapon. Let that sink it and then it's on to separation and, in time, divorce if they won't end their affair. Guys that come to me for help I attempt to get them to set a timeline for such events up front so when the time comes we have a guidepost of what ACTIONS should be happening {otherwise, left to their own devices they'll just keep conflict-avoiding and kicking the can down the boulevard}.




Thor said:


> A man who is tough enough to do Harley's Plan A would be tough enough to employ Plan TAM. A Nice Guy is going to get destroyed by Plan A.


First off, there is no "Plan TAM", unless you call chasing every recently betrayed husband off the forums with a barrage of insults to his manhood, telling him his situation is hopeless and disparagement of his wayward wife "Plan Tam".

Second, the 'nice guys' are getting destroyed already BY THEIR WIVES and MOST OF THEM don't tell anyone or turn to the internet or anyone for assistance. Most just play it by ear and suffer in silence. Some just wait out the affair or they succumb to conflict avoidance advice the likes of the waywards at SI or michele davis's divorce busting website where exposure is completely discouraged and the betrayed spouses are further advised not to talk to their family or friends about it either {talk about complete isolation, despair and LIMBO}. Seeking help on the internet IS progress {though I'm getting less and less confident of that being true}. 

Third, I agree Plan A type advice takes a pretty tough guy who is willing to go against his already manifested instincts and fears and expose his wife's affair to family, friends and everyone completely willing to withstand her immediate rage and seemingly hopelessness. Once the initial anger dissipates they become empowered and encouraged to take MORE actions. The limbo paralysis "seal" is broken and, after witnessing the results of exposure, the betrayed husband {and his encirclement of friends and family holding both him and hopefully his wayward wife accountable} is more able, willing, and certain to continue the fight for himself, his kids and his wife, divorce or not. The alternative is isolation, hopelessness and death. 




Thor said:


> And therein lies the main problem with Plan A, which is the BS is almost never committed to true R until they are figuratively speaking dangled off the edge of the cliff to peer into the abyss they've created by their affair. Why should a WS who is having all the excitement of an affair suddenly have a complete change of heart if they aren't facing severe consequences?


Wayward wives aren't typically committed to anything but another day of indecision UNTIL the affair ends and "no contact" is established. The won't have a "complete change of heart" until the affair is over and some time in 'no contact' has passed. Plan A doesn't require "commitment to true R", just end the affair and then be patient as the wayward wife processes through her irrational rationalizations and justifications and moves towards repentance {which takes months}. Exposure is often the only potent and "severe' consequence that can really be imposed as the most common "rationalization and justification" is that the betrayed husband is a controlling possessive neglectful jerk. An unsteady 'nice guy' betrayed husband trying to NOW impose his will with demands and lines in the sand just ends up feeding into such rationalizations and justifications and making divorce MORE likely. {divorce always remains his option but, at this point, he's still hoping or trying to save it or, at least get a shot at saving it so though many here may think he's wasting his time, it's important he figure that out for himself - but in a timely manner = which is Plan A offers a slower more doable pace somewhere between doing nothing and burning down the house}.



Thor said:


> I pity any BS who seeks help on the MB forums.


So you were banned too?? 

What I like about their guidance forum is the consistent message new unsure and unsteady 'nice guy' betrayed husbands get about exposure. Instead of hammering on their fears, their wife and their manliness they hammer productive and scriptural exposure. Plus, many of the posters appear to be happily recovered or happily divorced but glad they tried. I'm now often texting couples and other team leaders we work with at our church articles from the website and, if a betrayed spouse or leader isn't sure about our advice to expose I text them a link to this thread. EXPOSURE 101 

On top of that and very important, Dr. Harley seems to be the only professional marriage counselor and|or author that provides a huge amount of free resources and content to guide a recovering couple into and through recovery towards building a great renewed and sanctified marriage. You can even call him, get on his radio show, solicit free advice and get a free book for your time. I just don't seem to understand how that can compare at all to a discussion forum full of unique singular anecdotal experiences that seems full up with either divorced guys that 'recovered' for a while or former betrayed husbands that remain in miserable marriages that NOW, in hindsight, regret their choices. Not exactly the "experiences" or advisors a betrayed husband looking for real hope and advice to save his marriage and family ought to be listening to. As Chris H says, "Affairs are very destructive. But relationships can, and do recover from them. Be supportive of those choosing to make that effort." TAM used to be better, might could do so again. It's what Chris H wanted. That's the thing with discussion forums, the population changes and on any given day, hour or minute, good or bad advice can be given and received, just depends on who's available and online ready and willing to post.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Quality said:


> You've ALMOST got it, but I'd restate your sentiment like this:


Plan A is what traps the Nice Guy in limbo! It doesn't ease him out of it, rather it gives him an excuse to remain there. The Nice Guy doesn't want to offend or distress his wife, which is why he won't file for divorce or take other strong action. Plan A is an endorsement by a credentialed professional psychologist to stay the Nice Guy course. Plan A validates his very dysfunctional belief system that he is ultimately at fault for her cheating and that she is worthy of being chased. His paradigm of Covert Contracts is reinforced, whereby he erroneously interprets Plan A as "I act nicely towards her and she will become nice towards me".

I don't think you understand the Nice Guy Syndrome.




Quality said:


> It can be and while many couples do recover within or even after the divorce process it's not the only way and, IMO, it's clearly not the most effective way to save a marriage. Filing for divorce is more likely just going to result in divorce. Besides 'nice guys' rarely do this and won't be talked into it. 75% of divorces are filed by women and of the 25% filed by men, I bet half of those are because some "other woman" skank MADE him file it.
> 
> Also, divorce isn't the biggest weapon or consequence for many a wayward wife. They think they WANT to be divorced and with their assoulmate. Filing for divorce hoping to manipulate them with such consequence is usually pretty transparent and often just makes things easier seeming for the wayward wife. You're just helping them destroy the family. Exposure is the first and best weapon. Let that sink it and then it's on to separation and, in time, divorce if they won't end their affair. Guys that come to me for help I attempt to get them to set a timeline for such events up front so when the time comes we have a guidepost of what ACTIONS should be happening {otherwise, left to their own devices they'll just keep conflict-avoiding and kicking the can down the boulevard}.


Filing for divorce is one option. Another is to demand actions such as transparency and No Contact immediately, with the consequences being D if not complied with. This requires the BH be ready and willing to file, which means meeting with a lawyer and getting the preliminary arrangements organized. Exposure is always a valid option when R is the goal, with the breadth of exposure subject to individual circumstances.

If a cheater is so far into the fog that they think they want D, *they are not going to be committed to working on the marriage*. This is where False R happens. The BH plays Nice with Plan A, while the WW continues her fling. Filing for D tells the WS they must choose which side of the fence they are on. Filing may also scare the OM/OW into breaking off the affair even if exposure didn't. The OM/OW probably doesn't want the cheater full time! 

Let it be said that Plan A executed over the course of one week maximum may have merit. But this is not what most BHs do, whether Nice Guy or just a scared father looking at financial ruin and losing access to his children. They see Plan A as license to remain passive, _most especially if they go to the forums at MB_.




Quality said:


> First off, there is no "Plan TAM", unless you call chasing every recently betrayed husband off the forums with a barrage of insults to his manhood, telling him his situation is hopeless and disparagement of his wayward wife "Plan Tam".


You're welcome to leave the forum if you dislike the strategy generally presented to new BS.



Quality said:


> Second, the 'nice guys' are getting destroyed already BY THEIR WIVES and MOST OF THEM don't tell anyone or turn to the internet or anyone for assistance. Most just play it by ear and suffer in silence. Some just wait out the affair or they succumb to conflict avoidance advice the likes of the waywards at SI or michele davis's divorce busting website where exposure is completely discouraged and the betrayed spouses are further advised not to talk to their family or friends about it either {talk about complete isolation, despair and LIMBO}. Seeking help on the internet IS progress {though I'm getting less and less confident of that being true}.


I think most Nice Guys end up being dumped by their cheating wives eventually if they don't do something strong as soon as they discover the cheating. Seeking help is not necessarily beneficial if the advice is bad, to include many therapists who have no idea how to deal with infidelity. In many cases, the Nice Guy's marriage is doomed already by the infidelity. The strong man who can confidently execute Plan A over a very short period of time and then move to Plan B might have a fighting chance, but the Nice Guy just gets trapped by the bad advice to continue being passive.




Quality said:


> Third, I agree Plan A type advice takes a pretty tough guy who is willing to go against his already manifested instincts and fears and expose his wife's affair to family, friends and everyone completely willing to withstand her immediate rage and seemingly hopelessness. Once the initial anger dissipates they become empowered and encouraged to take MORE actions. The limbo paralysis "seal" is broken and, after witnessing the results of exposure, the betrayed husband {and his encirclement of friends and family holding both him and hopefully his wayward wife accountable} is more able, willing, and certain to continue the fight for himself, his kids and his wife, divorce or not. The alternative is isolation, hopelessness and death.


Exposure is one part of a good strategy. Plan A where the man essentially sucks up to his wife is a horrible idea for most men, especially the Nice Guy. So many of our younger generation are now in that category, too.



Quality said:


> Wayward wives aren't typically committed to anything but another day of indecision UNTIL the affair ends and "no contact" is established. The won't have a "complete change of heart" until the affair is over and some time in 'no contact' has passed. Plan A doesn't require "commitment to true R", just end the affair and then be patient as the wayward wife processes through her irrational rationalizations and justifications and moves towards repentance {which takes months}. Exposure is often the only potent and "severe' consequence that can really be imposed as the most common "rationalization and justification" is that the betrayed husband is a controlling possessive neglectful jerk. An unsteady 'nice guy' betrayed husband trying to NOW impose his will with demands and lines in the sand just ends up feeding into such rationalizations and justifications and making divorce MORE likely. {divorce always remains his option but, at this point, he's still hoping or trying to save it or, at least get a shot at saving it so though many here may think he's wasting his time, it's important he figure that out for himself - but in a timely manner = which is Plan A offers a slower more doable pace somewhere between doing nothing and burning down the house}.


Again, I don't think you understand the Nice Guy Syndrome. Plan A sucks him in, grinds him up, and spits him out an even more broken soul.




Quality said:


> So you were banned too??


I don't recall being banned, but maybe. I remember being quite sickened by the advice on the forums there.




Quality said:


> What I like about their guidance forum is the consistent message new unsure and unsteady 'nice guy' betrayed husbands get about exposure. Instead of hammering on their fears, their wife and their manliness they hammer productive and scriptural exposure. Plus, many of the posters appear to be happily recovered or happily divorced but glad they tried. I'm now often texting couples and other team leaders we work with at our church articles from the website and, if a betrayed spouse or leader isn't sure about our advice to expose I text them a link to this thread. EXPOSURE 101
> 
> On top of that and very important, Dr. Harley seems to be the only professional marriage counselor and|or author that provides a huge amount of free resources and content to guide a recovering couple into and through recovery towards building a great renewed and sanctified marriage. You can even call him, get on his radio show, solicit free advice and get a free book for your time. I just don't seem to understand how that can compare at all to a discussion forum full of unique singular anecdotal experiences that seems full up with either divorced guys that 'recovered' for a while or former betrayed husbands that remain in miserable marriages that NOW, in hindsight, regret their choices. Not exactly the "experiences" or advisors a betrayed husband looking for real hope and advice to save his marriage and family ought to be listening to. As Chris H says, "Affairs are very destructive. But relationships can, and do recover from them. Be supportive of those choosing to make that effort." TAM used to be better, might could do so again. It's what Chris H wanted. That's the thing with discussion forums, the population changes and on any given day, hour or minute, good or bad advice can be given and received, just depends on who's available and online ready and willing to post.


Exposure is part and parcel to the initial steps of Plan TAM. You make it sound like this forum disapproves of exposure, or thinks exposure should happen later on in the process. When R is the goal, surprise exposure followed immediately with setting firm boundaries is what happens on the first day.

I think Dr. Laura used to entertain a lot of cheaters on her radio show for free. Her advice was pretty horrible too, telling people to never admit to their spouse that they cheated, and never expose someone else who is cheating.

Sometimes we do get some pretty harsh comments. Tbh, I believe a large portion of those are Trolls. Seriously trolls, not just betrayed spouses who have a bad attitude, but true trouble makers. Same with some of the stories about being betrayed (or just treated poorly), where the person becomes argumentative or never takes any of the advice. 

When we do get an established member who is perhaps too harsh early on with a new member, the others here generally balance out the discussion.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Quality, what is your screen name on the Marriage Builder's forum?


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Handy said:


> Quality, what is your screen name on the Marriage Builder's forum?


One of the male regulars is Marcos. Like quality he is very thoughtful and articulate. He is also a very kind and compassionate dude.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Handy said:


> Quality, what is your screen name on the Marriage Builder's forum?


I have not posted on the MB forum. My situation occurred before discussion forums. I've been familiar with the forums for a long time, but much more now about the whole MB website than before. I recommend the mb articles and the radio app. Just listen to them for a few days and you'll be pretty convinced Dr. Harley knows a lot about marriage. Might be too traditional for some but traditional works for me and it's nice to counter the hopefulness of his messages with all the negativity you read here recently. I feel the attacks are completely unwarranted and, quite obviously made up out of thin air. My church marriage team is over 100 facilitators strong in multiple campuses operating for over 10 years and not ONE betrayed or wayward spouse has killed themselves yet{thank God}. But if it did happen, especially FOUR TIMES in 40 couples, I can't fathom not taking responsibility myself or blaming the weak men that took their own lives instead of dealing with their realities {which is a sin} instead of trying to blame my team or some author(s) of materials we provided and discussed with such individuals/couples. 

What if one of us offers advice here on TAM and later finds out the guy killed himself after doing something you suggested like exposure or even "give her strong consequences and kick her to the curb", are you really going to feel guilty for your post. Infidelity is a war and humans are highly emotional, highly agitated and unpredictable. Ultimately the person seeking and taking the advice is responsible for their own behavior and actions. I don't make anyone do anything and neither does Dr. Phil, Dr. Glover, Dr. Oz or Dr. Harley. 

To get back to your question, my wife and I have friends that posted there and really everywhere and I've read a ton of cataloged historical notes on all these forums and many of it's posters dating back to 2001 or so. It's tremendously interesting {to me} and sometimes I copy/paste/edit such information and data into my posts so I may sound like one poster one day and another poster the next.


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## Kobold (Dec 5, 2015)

Quality said:


> 4 suicides out of 40 couples is a HUGE failure rate. Why would you ever speak to anyone about infidelity ever again??? You're killing your supposed congregation {complete disbelieving eye-roll again}





Quality said:


> My church marriage team is over 100 facilitators strong in multiple campuses operating for over 10 years and not ONE betrayed or wayward spouse has killed themselves yet{thank God}. But if it did happen, especially FOUR TIMES in 40 couples, I can't fathom not taking responsibility myself or blaming the weak men that took their own lives instead of dealing with their realities {which is a sin} instead of trying to blame my team or some author(s) of materials we provided and discussed with such individuals/couples.



How desperate must a person be to look to you for any sort of advice? Your every word drips with derision while simultaneously feigning some form of biblical understanding. You've repeatedly mocked another person for having lost people he cared about to suicide. That's the behavior of a deeply troubled individual. You may have "head knowledge" of the bible, but I can see nothing in any of your words that would indicate that you've been transformed in any meaningful way. A haughty attitude repels people away from Christ. People can quote bible verses as much as they desire, but until they have been truly humbled by the reality of their own sinfulness/unworthiness in the presence of a perfect and holy God it's just a bunch of words being regurgitated. You label others "weak" for having killed themselves, does it irk you when you think about how some of the people in your own life consider you to be "weak" for remaining married to the woman who betrayed you? That these same people might snicker behind your back or make jokes at your expense when you're not around? Could that be why you like to belittle others as "weak" so you can imagine yourself as being "strong" in comparison. In much the same way an abused child might bully another child in school so he can feel like he's in control of his own chaotic situation. Is it possible you have a great deal of unresolved resentment towards your wife and this is your way of blowing off some of that steam on anonymous strangers instead of completely exploding at her? If so that's no way to go through life, holding in so much anger and bitterness, while masking it under a veneer of condescension and hubris. That can't be much fun for her either, I hope that you'll seek out somebody in your own life that will help steer you on a more hopeful and fulfilling path.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Quality, I used to post on Marriage Builders and I used to like the forum member's advice. The key phrase is "used to."

I also posted on other forums where some people suggested reading books by authors other than the forum's main author, and those people got banned. It wasn't that way when i first posted on MB but that is the way it ended up. The general tone was, only use Harley's books-advice, anything else resulted in my posts being deleted or I was advised to leave.

It was as if Harley was the ONLY person that had any insight on marriage issues. This wasn't instigated by Harley but some of the forum heavy weights that seem to control the forums.

I bought and read "His-Her Needs, Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders, and Love Busters. i even joined one thread about one of the books.

After a while it got to feel like every other relationship book author was verboten to mention and if I didn't buy into Harley's methods and advice and discount everything out side the Marriage Builders advice, I was doing things all wrong. Nothing that John Gottman, David Schnarch, or the 5 love Languages had to offer counted. So according to the forum heavy's, I had 10 to 15 books that didn't count for much, even though many people saw they had some benefit and ideas that might be helpful to solving marital issues.

I and other people were ridiculed for saying things about our spouse and what I had in mind was made to sound like I was so wrong to say or think that way. I said my W had a shopping addiction (fact=spent 60% of her income buying things from TV shopping channels and had deliveries 3 to 5 days a week) I was told I was judgemental towards my W. I was dis respectable towards my W and on and on.

Abut his books, just my take:
His-Her Needs; Generally true but fairly simple.
Love Busters; Right on, it takes 10 good things to cancel out 1 bad thing. With some people it takes 25+ good things to cancel out 1 bad thing.
Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders; Showed me where I stand in my marriage.

The Questionnaires; I tried to do them with my W but she didn't see any benefit. I still say the Questionnaires are one of the best things about MB

I listened to several radio broadcasts. The sad thing is it takes two people to make his stuff work and if only one person is on board and one person thinks his stuff is not worth while, even Harley's stuff doesn't work for the couple.

I liked the idea of the "Love Bank" but with some people what i thought would be "Love Bank" deposits, for my W it just was more I should be doing these things and she could keep doing her crappy behavior because too many women have been subservient to men for too many centuries.

I quit doing the plan "A" (look I am a good guy dance) when i saw I was kissing butt and not getting any pay off. I couldn't give what I didn't have because I exhausted my supply for too long. My W even said I was being co-dependent and decided she shuldn't have to do things she didn't enthusiastically want to do. 

Me, I do things that are expected of me as a husband, father, employee, citizen, and etc. Now I take care of me and give what I can.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Handy said:


> Quality, I used to post on Marriage Builders and I used to like the forum member's advice. The key phrase is "used to."
> 
> I also posted on other forums where some people suggested reading books by authors other than the forum's main author, and those people got banned. It wasn't that way when i first posted on MB but that is the way it ended up. The general tone was, only use Harley's books-advice, anything else resulted in my posts being deleted or I was advised to leave.
> 
> ...


I read your threads and many of your posts on Marriage Building last night and today. I located and found Thor's threads too. They all mostly sounded pretty good to me. {I did not read any of your posts at divorcebusting or NMMNG}. Everyone sounded pretty hopeful and encouraging. They seemed to try to hold you accountable {since you were the only one posting}. It's not their fault you were unable to get your wife onboard}. 



> After a while it got to feel like every other relationship book author was verboten to mention and if I didn't buy into Harley's methods and advice and discount everything out side the Marriage Builders advice, I was doing things all wrong. Nothing that John Gottman, David Schnarch, or the 5 love Languages had to offer counted. So according to the forum heavy's, I had 10 to 15 books that didn't count for much, even though many people saw they had some benefit and ideas that might be helpful to solving marital issues.


That MAY BE because when you first registered at MB in 2004 it was a wide open discussion forum and you could post and talk about any book|author you wanted. Sometime around 2010|2011 it became a "guidance" forum after which the "discussion" and|or promotion of other books|authors appears to have become agaist board rules.
. 

_I went and found it = it's board rule #10. If you are offering advice to person asking a question, you agree to refrain from posting material that is counter to the Marriage Builders program, whether that be in the form of a book reference or a personal philosophy

The purpose of this forum is to help others find solutions using Marriage Builders concepts. We ask that you keep this in mind when posting to others._​
It's really not that inconceivable that Dr. Harley thinks his program is the best or he'd change it I imagine. It's not a public square but a private property. If John Gottman {an adulterer}, David Schnarch {not horrible but very technical and "validation" isn't really biblical}, and Chapman {a summary of His Needs, Her Needs for Christians} want their materials and books talked about online maybe you or they should set up their own guidance and|or discussion forums instead of piggy-backing on Dr. Harley's dime. 



> I and other people were ridiculed for saying things about our spouse and what I had in mind was made to sound like I was so wrong to say or think that way. I said my W had a shopping addiction (fact=spent 60% of her income buying things from TV shopping channels and had deliveries 3 to 5 days a week) I was told I was judgemental towards my W. I was dis respectable towards my W and on and on.


I didn't see this. Link??{only if you want}. I mean it's not like had you posted here or elsewhere for 14 years everyone would have been kind to you. 



> The Questionnaires; I tried to do them with my W but she didn't see any benefit. I still say the Questionnaires are one of the best things about MB
> 
> I listened to several radio broadcasts. The sad thing is it takes two people to make his stuff work and if only one person is on board and one person thinks his stuff is not worth while, even Harley's stuff doesn't work for the couple.


This is where we are alike. We're "fix it ourselves" guys. Rebuild, repurpose and spend 6 hours trying to find the exact required DIY youtube video. We're also neither of us salesmen {just look how popular I am here?}. Reading your threads you were encouraged time and time again to TRY and get your wife to talk with Dr. Harley or Dr. Chalmers in his office or do a seminar somewhere. I'm all for using the free MB materials, tools and articles and trying to do it all myself|ourselves; but, like you say when YOU are unable to convince your spouse that ANY marital recovery resources are worthwhile, maybe it's time to let a professional salesperson|counselor give it a try. It's a huge part of their job. I don't know if Dr. Harley or Chalmers could have "sold" your wife on trying MB or not and I don't know how much that might have cost you $$$ or if the alternative of calling the radio show free was available back then but did you ever give that a shot? You had considered it a time or two. Maybe you couldn't get your wife to even talk to one of them.



> I liked the idea of the "Love Bank" but with some people what i thought would be "Love Bank" deposits, for my W it just was more I should be doing these things and she could keep doing her crappy behavior because too many women have been subservient to men for too many centuries.


Again, I didn't see that on the threads|posts I read. Are you talking about your wife when you say "some people" because it's not like the posters on any public forum won't make mistakes, misunderstand, misread and|or say all sorts of crazy things. 



> I quit doing the plan "A" (look I am a good guy dance) when i saw I was kissing butt and not getting any pay off. I couldn't give what I didn't have because I exhausted my supply for too long. My W even said I was being co-dependent and decided she shuldn't have to do things she didn't enthusiastically want to do.


Wouldn't that be something like a "'nice guy' with a covert contract"??????

So did you ever end up separating or Plan B'ing?

I'm sure you read this === When to Call it Quits at some point or another over your 10 years at marriage building. 

It's the path I would have suggested.




> Me, I do things that are expected of me as a husband, father, employee, citizen, and etc. Now I take care of me and give what I can.


You seem like a really nice guy who put in a lot of time and effort reading every manual, book, program, forum you could get your hands on trying to improve your situation. Sometimes, maybe in hindsight, you can acknowledge a little information overload while setting yourself up for added resentment while your wife did nothing to "work" on the relationship. I'd guess she also, at some point, mocked you for thinking you're some kind of expert {your efforts unfairly making her feel inadequate}. Maybe that's just easy for me to say having just read over about 14 years of your life in a few hours while already having a general idea of where you are today. I am not and can't knock the choices or decisions you made for you, your wife and your family. You stood by your vows, exercised the patience of Job and you generally didn't complain {and found an outlet for your complaints online = not the worst coping mechanism}. I was a conflict avoider myself and had God seen fit to match me up with a wife like yours I may have done the exact same thing. I wish your wife would have responded to your massive efforts to make things better and not treated you the way she had/has.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Quality said:


> Also, divorce isn't the biggest weapon or consequence for many a wayward wife. They think they WANT to be divorced and with their assoulmate.


This ^^^^^, or they are in a fog and trying to "decide". 



> Filing for divorce ... often just makes things easier seeming for the wayward wife.


Exactly. Now it's "not their fault" any more: he went and filed. It may seem weird but they can feel let off the hook once the BH files.

Edited to add: where I am coming from.
- I am probably something of a "nice guy"
- I have never (so far as I know!) been cheated on by a wife or partner
- I am not a Christian; I am interested in what is ethical, but don't base it on biblical wording
- I have counselled quite a lot of affair couples, although by the sound of it maybe not as many as @Quality (and I have what I consider appropriate professional training in doing that)

It is however rare for me to see a couple where the affair is ongoing *after discovery*. In such a case they usually won't come to marriage counselling together, in my experience. And if the wayward is a woman, and continues after discovery, it generally means she (thinks she) wants to be with the AP. Recovery is unlikely unless the AP ends the affair upon discovery - but this quite often happens.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> This ^^^^^, or they are in a fog and trying to "decide".
> 
> Exactly. Now it's "not their fault" any more: he went and filed. It may seem weird but they can feel let off the hook once the BH files.
> 
> ...


Yes. The wayward wife is relieved because "it's not her fault" *AND* they get to also say to OM, their friends and family - "see, I told you he didn't care === and all that upset, begging, and overwhelming unbelievable {and too late} offers to change things the past few weeks or month is confirmed to have been nothing more than a manipulative act put on by the betrayed husband to try to control her and 'OWN" her. She was nothing more than property to him, obviously." 

Besides - most of the true "consequences" of divorce don't really take shape until MONTHS later when the real terms of the divorce start getting put to paper, tens of thousands have already been sunk on the vultures and the betrayed husband, more often than not, is already out at the divorce bars or trolling his high school friend groups trying to falsely reclaim his "self-esteem" in the bed of some other struggling lonely woman {women that sleep with the 'still married but divorcing' men aren't exactly the healthiest, brightest and best}. 

Also, where wayward husband's getting served with divorce petitions often looks like the aftermath of a ALS Cold Water Challenge video, the wayward wife counterpart just flips through the paperwork and says "that SOB, I'm so going to screw him in this divorce, he has NO IDEA, I wasn't sure this is what I wanted but now he's made my decision so clear - buuuutttttt, look here, I've got 30 days to respond and I still need to get my nails done and to the mall before Victoria Secret closes - I'll just forward the documents to my divorced wayward supporting girlfriends and my dad this weekend and they'll figure it out - I've got a date tonight and now I've got a great topic of conversation and I need to really make sure to keep my priorities straight - because it looks like I'm 'all-in' with OM now and I need to lock him up or I'll look really foolish". 

Such 'all-in' is often the kiss of death for affairs. As Dr. Harley and others point out, it makes the affair partners then completely responsible for meeting all the needs of each other. OM's aren't often prepared for or capable of that level of "got to make this worth it" psycho-selfish-entitled-desperate wayward woman need meeting. HOWEVER, Plan B and/or a strategicly timed separation can achieve the same effect without making divorce easier for the wayward wife and just more likely {divorce petitions are the leading cause of divorce}.



> It is however rare for me to see a couple where the affair is ongoing *after discovery*. In such a case they usually won't come to marriage counselling together, in my experience. And if the wayward is a woman, and continues after discovery, it generally means she (thinks she) wants to be with the AP. Recovery is unlikely unless the AP ends the affair upon discovery - but this quite often happens.


As far as counseling or coaching couples where 'no contact' has not yet been put in place, I agree it's rare and based upon my experience last night, might not even be advisable at all. Most waywards still in contact won't step foot in a Christian counselor or lay ministry's office. Why would they other than to try to gaslight and blameshift upon their spouse? But --- sometimes they stumble in and do so anyway. We just have to trust God. In hindsight, we're not sure if it was just too harsh on both the betrayed spouse and wayward spouse to have an initial meeting with all 4 of us present while TRYING to negotiate and come to any kind of firm resolution about 'no contact'. Although the wayward wife maintains it was just a drunken one night stand with a coworker {another one of those anti-family Corporate holiday parties without spouses} and we can imagine she is likely just trying to selfishly manage her own consequences at work {don't rock the raft and nobody finds out anything - OM put in his two week notice and will soon fade away quietly from the workplace = she really really promises and it's JUST 2 weeks} but it fully appears to her betrayed husband that she's just trying to protect the OM while, to us, suggesting additionally she's very possibly a still active wayward negotiating a couple more weeks of contact while she {never} figures out what she wants to do. My wife could try to empathize and identify with her all she wanted, it's still tough to really try to hold an active wayward wife accountable 15 minutes after shaking their hand. My wife was able to eventually convince her {at least last night} that she has already made enough mistakes doing it her way and it was time to stop, trust God and her husband and accept whatever consequences resulted from His||his||their leadership and, one way or another, "No contact" will officially start after 5 or 6 pm today {crossing fingers}. We have no idea if we helped at all or if the wife will ever speak with my wife again despite all the tears and hugs at the end. Time will tell.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Thor said:


> Plan A is what traps the Nice Guy in limbo! It doesn't ease him out of it, rather it gives him an excuse to remain there. The Nice Guy doesn't want to offend or distress his wife, which is why he won't file for divorce or take other strong action. Plan A is an endorsement by a credentialed professional psychologist to stay the Nice Guy course. Plan A validates his very dysfunctional belief system that he is ultimately at fault for her cheating and that she is worthy of being chased. His paradigm of Covert Contracts is reinforced, whereby he erroneously interprets Plan A as "I act nicely towards her and she will become nice towards me".


Jesus was a nice guy. One time he scolded some money changers in the Temple but considering how violent that period of human history was, that was hardly consequential seeming {to them at the time}. I'm a nice guy and none of that rant applied to me. I was perfectly fine with filing for divorce ---- eventually. I didn't hold off filing because I was scared of offending or distressing my then fully wayward wife. I just wasn't certain divorce was the route God wanted me to take yet. Never occurred to me to attempt to manipulate my wife by filing or hinting that I was secretly preparing for divorce behind the scenes to put myself and our children in the best possible position to protect us all, to the fullest extent, from her then duplicitous lifestyle. I prayed for us and I even prayed for my enemies. I rebuked satan. I snooped without anyone telling me. I think most men are much more afraid of paying lawyers and losing all their stuff along with, at a minimum, at least 50% of their time with their children than being "afraid of their wife" but there some that do simple roll over and divorce but I wouldn't suggest that to them nor do I see anywhere that Plan A says never file for divorce or fight for your legal rights. The kids thing had me a bit. I didn't want them to have a broken home NOR a broken mother. If there was a possibility of reconciliation {and I had faith and hope there was = this wasn't any kind of consistent pattern with my wife - she was a better person than me in most regards throughout our courtship and early marriage}. I felt our kids deserved me giving it our family it's best shot. 

Also, lots of betrayed husbands initially presume themselves to be at fault for her cheating and I'm sure our caveman minds still trigger out because "our" {as in "our property"} betrayed us and gets us feeling that somehow says something about us as men. It doesn't but I can see how it might feel that way at the time, especially a betrayed husband that's already been through a lot of tough times in their lives. But a good many betrayed husbands are, to some degree or another, guilty of marital neglect {intentionally or not} and they are SORRY about that and actually reaping the consequences of their behavior as well {not that anyone deserved it but it is pretty awful to know you BILATERALLY participated in creating the conditions ripe for it}. It's not a mortal sin to "neglect" your spouse anything like adultery but taking ownership of it while simultaneously demanding {respectfully} that your wayward wife take ownership of her unilateral sinful decision to commit adultery isn't a terrible thing. Being sorry is OK. It's what men are supposed to do. it's leadership. It's scriptural. Unfortunately, this DOES cause a good many to take too much initial responsibility for their wife's choices to have an affair, but that's not what Plan A says they are to do at all but I'd much rather work with a betrayed husband that's "too sorry" {for his behavior} than one that's not sorry at all. 

To your next point, any wayward wife's worthiness to be chased, to whatever level, isn't an assessment made anywhere by Dr. Harley or me or anyone. That is the betrayed spouse's call. My wife was certainly worth it to me. I like her. You guys disparaging and not liking my wife here is fine - understandable even for the ones that have never witnessed repentance. 

I don't see how Plan A can be charaacterized as covert contract. It's an affair busting technique. There's not supposed to be expectations other than, my wife is out of her mind and living a life of sin, she's making the big mistake and I'm her husband who's vowed to love her in "good times and bad", the OM is interfering in my marriage and I'm NOT just going to stand aside and let him destroy my family without putting up a fight and if that doesn't work let God's will be done and may he give me to power to accept either outcome. Besides, just about every betrayed husband I've talked to is already acutely aware their wife isn't really all that capable of being nice, honest or trustworthy at all while the affair continues. Sometimes they might HOPE for nice but I don't think they aren't expecting "nice" back and IF I catch wind of an active wayward being super nice to you - you're actually probably doing something wrong. I think active wayward wives hate Plan A, they'd much rather see a divorce petition or even the 180 than be made to feel like the bad guy all the time, dealing with someone interfering with their affair partner, having to now run around and hide in shame due to exposure and looking for an escape from feeling guilty {if she doesn't like it maybe she'll just move out}. I actually think the 180 plan is much more the "acting nice and happy hoping she notices how sexy and aloof I am becoming" is the stupidest PUA covert contract theory ever {as in "If I act like I don't care and "get a life" she'll sense I'm distancing and start to pursue me and want me back}. To everyone else, you just look like you're condoning the affair. The fight for your marriage Plan A approach, to me, is a counterbalance to all that because with exposure and messing with the affair any way you can versus the truly limbo plan of non-exposure whilst simply awaiting the end of the affair you'll end up either recovered or divorced in a much shorter period of time {recalling I said, the betrayed spouse can always fast track divorce any time he wants to so I'm not telling anyone that's decided to divorce to wait}. 



> I don't think you understand the Nice Guy Syndrome.


Nice Guy Syndrome doesn't exist. It's nothing more than the mystical revelations and regurgitations of a deluded adulterer (Dr. Glover} as he was literally inspired by his own rationalizing and justifying while cheating upon and divorcing his first wife.

I don't recall all the exact details {I read this elsewhere} but apparently, he cheated on the 1st wife he chose to marry and took vows with. I'm pretty sure that nobody held a gun to his head and made him marry her but apparently he later figured out the marriage was a mistake. When she failed to meet all his needs and cute young red-headed co-worker did he endeavor to have an affair with her. He struggles to reconcile with his wife but instead of actually accepting responsibility and repenting, he starts writing a book about how HE is the victim of this Nice Guy Syndrom and that's why he's became such a jerk. But he continues - BECAUSE he WAS a jerk and he's trying to learn to become a real fully integrated man or NOT a jerk or whatever, he just had to discard the 1st wife he covertly contracted in married mistakenly thinking it was the nice thing to do. So he gets back together with his coworker young affair partner {I'm guessing they never went 'no contact'}, finishes of the divorce from 1st wife, for her own good {they were never meant to be}, and soon marries his affair partner {and appropriately dedicates the ultimate wayward book about being a NoMoreMrNiceGuy to her and her children}. Pretty soon thereafter he realized he married a loon affair partner and, rationalizes it again, determining he hadn't fully developed or finished eliminating ALL his {not really} nice guy ways. Divorce wife #2 and it's on to dating all the divorced woman a 60 year old bald doctor can pay for and, magically, he is finally integrated {with a wake of destruction behind him including the men he hooked into this nice guy syndrome crap.



> Filing for divorce is one option. Another is to demand actions such as transparency and No Contact immediately, with the consequences being D if not complied with. This requires the BH be ready and willing to file, which means meeting with a lawyer and getting the preliminary arrangements organized. Exposure is always a valid option when R is the goal, with the breadth of exposure subject to individual circumstances.


Filing for divorce is always an option for infidelity and I agree with calmly and respectfully demanding transparency and no contact immediately, upon discovery and thereafter. Good idea. I'm OK with confronting OM too {just try not to get thrown in jail or otherwise do something that might negatively impact your custody case}. We just disagree that the immediate consequences of "D if not complied with immediately" is necessary or the best or only path for the betrayed husband who is still considering whether he wants to divorce his wayward wife or not {if he wants to save his marriage}. I agree a betrayed husband in Plan A should consult with an attorney or two and get his preliminary arrangements organized, if for nothing else, to be ready for a blindside restraining order or other typical entitled wayward wife legal maneuver. And he should snoop on his adversaries so he can adjust and modify his battle plans with as much foreknowledge as possible. As far as exposure, I prefer they go large and fast especially with a wayward wife continuing her affair after confrontation day. 




> If a cheater is so far into the fog that they think they want D, *they are not going to be committed to working on the marriage*. This is where False R happens. The BH plays Nice with Plan A, while the WW continues her fling. Filing for D tells the WS they must choose which side of the fence they are on. Filing may also scare the OM/OW into breaking off the affair even if exposure didn't. The OM/OW probably doesn't want the cheater full time!


Filing might do those things. It might not. You think it's the "best shot" the betrayed husband that wants to save his marriage and family has and I disagree or think that shot, to the extent it's effective at all for anything other than actually becoming divorced can be played sometime later. 



> Let it be said that Plan A executed over the course of one week maximum may have merit. But this is not what most BHs do, whether Nice Guy or just a scared father looking at financial ruin and losing access to his children. They see Plan A as license to remain passive, _most especially if they go to the forums at MB_.


In August 2011 you posted on MB and pennylane told you to stop confronting your wife without solid evidence of impropriety and recommended you get a VAR to verify your suspicions; and, you responded that it was a good idea. I see here on TAM that it wasn't until July 2012 that you finally got around to buying and trying the VAR out. Your sister is a marriage counselor and your wife is a Ph.D., I don't know what you were thinking or waiting for.

Then holdingontoit, who is a respected poster here now posted to you on MB:



holdingontoit said:


> Take it from a guy with no balls and backbone. You need to grow a set. Hmm, no actually, you need to go grab the case on the shelf where your wife has locked away your balls, smash the case open, and take your balls back.


You didn't appear to get any coddling for your "do-it-yourself" passive approach on MB I so I find it odd you would make such blanket statements about the overall marriage building plan or it's forum. I'm not trying to mock you. I have great sympathy for what you endured with your wife/ex-wife. You're another engineer type musician like me that wanted to figure out the exact configuration and diagram to solve the equation. I think Plan A appeals to me in that sense and maybe you, however briefly, because it is formulaic; but, I didn't have that information when I recovered my marriage. It's really just biblical advice and the story of the Gospel so my pastor at the time knew all about it and I did a few things right along the way. 


Also, you think Plan A has merit for one week???? Wow, you're capitulating already. Considering snooping, confrontation, exposure and getting your legal ducks in a line all combined add up to an additional few weeks it looks kind of like you're becoming a real Plan A supporter. 



> I think most Nice Guys end up being dumped by their cheating wives eventually if they don't do something strong as soon as they discover the cheating. Seeking help is not necessarily beneficial if the advice is bad, to include many therapists who have no idea how to deal with infidelity. In many cases, the Nice Guy's marriage is doomed already by the infidelity. The strong man who can confidently execute Plan A over a very short period of time and then move to Plan B might have a fighting chance, but the Nice Guy just gets trapped by the bad advice to continue being passive.


And maybe Jesus should have came down from the cross, smite the Roman soldiers and proven to all the Jews present that He actually was their true Messiah and God. But He didn't do that. He endured and held strong despite having the unbounded power and ability to do otherwise for me and for my wife. If he could do that for me, I felt I could have the strength to at least hold off giving up on my wife and throwing her away for little while to give Him time to work on her. 

There is power in quiet strength. In loving someone. In forgiveness. I wish EVERY betrayed spouse's wayward spouse immediately ceased their sinful ways upon discovery {or long before even that}; but that's not how it always works. Doesn't mean they can't repent. Doesn't mean they can't demonstrate strength and leadership later on. Most men are completely blindsided and just want to FIX IT. They're strong because they take responsibility for their own mistakes and for their wives and I don't blame them for wanting to put faith, trust and love into their unappreciative and unresponsive wives. The guys that "do something strong" immediately seem to have just as much trouble with their marriages down the road as anyone else might have. Recovery for both spouses is a huge problem and way too many just want to rugsweep the whole thing. THAT is the time a betrayed husband really needs to speak up and the marriage needs to become better or it's not worth it. Perhaps the time to truly be prepared for and ready to threaten divorce is after the 3rd party alternative has been eliminated and it's just the two you and she wants to avoid repenting and just blame you. I believe the betrayed husband continues to have his "get out of marriage card" indefinitely and needs to use it as a leadership tool for the good of the relationship to get her to submit to mutual accountability. If she doesn't want a better marriage after forgiveness, or to give new respect and honor to her husband, might be time to finally let the unbeliever go.



> Exposure is one part of a good strategy. Plan A where the man essentially sucks up to his wife is a horrible idea for most men, especially the Nice Guy. So many of our younger generation are now in that category, too.


Oh the good old days when women didn't cheat for fear their men would beat them up.



> Again, I don't think you understand the Nice Guy Syndrome. Plan A sucks him in, grinds him up, and spits him out an even more broken soul.


And the poster himself bears no responsibility for his choices? The forum and Plan A does it to them? Instead, he needs to come here or SI or DB or even loveshack and it'll surely work out better for him. Like this supposed Plan Tam is a guaranteed lifesaver? I mean, you had 20 posts on MB and they were advising you to take specific actions to change your circumstances and you insisted on doing it your own way. They didn't chat you up about your music or discuss atheism or your bikes. They suggested things like actively snooping and a polygraph while you were merely suspicious your wife was cheating. Then you found an odd suspicious looking email account somewhere and you still didn't get the VAR for a year. 2 months later you register here at TAM {October 2011}, you've had 9000+ posts to date and 5 years later {Sept 2016} your truly neglectful and cruel seeming ex-wife finally decided it's time for a divorce tried to get you to roll over on the terms like you wouldn't need an attorney. Glad the folks here helped you out with that injustice but it doesn't appear any of these forums provided you the answers or empowered you to take control of your own life and difficult marriage. 

Further, isn't it the cheating wife that is actually the one "grinding him up" and paralyzing the "Nice Guys" with fear. Plan A type plans are just one path out and I've now read lots of threads over there {just picked out a few old long ones} and nobody seems to be going easy on anyone or encouraging passivity and the longer they went the more 'non-passive" the advice became until they either left the forum ormake it to Plan B and peace {even more peace than having to deal with an ongoing divorce case which requires a lot of interaction and upset between the spouses}. I couldn't find a thread or poster where there was actual LIMBO for over a year, let alone 3-5 years. I've seen that on divorce busting. 25years is getting divorced now after about a decade of not dealing with her wayward husband. 

Sometimes I think it's actually a heck of a lot easier to push a man boldly from behind a computer screen anonymously than in real life. Making too many friends on a forum might hinder that. Today I actually sent that betrayed husband my wife and I sat with last night a link to the MB Exposure 101 thread just in case his wife decides to not follow specifically the "no contact" plan we outlined last night. That thread makes so many points that I could never say to a guy face to face in a ministry setting. At one point last night he looked at my wife and said his wife just wouldn't agree with him calling OM's girlfriend and my wife asked him if his wayward wife was his mama. We aren't in the business or ministry of coddling waywards. Sin no more is the directive, but none of us can MAKE the sinner abide. 



> I don't recall being banned, but maybe. I remember being quite sickened by the advice on the forums there.


I suppose 20 posts 6.5 years ago makes you an expert. It actually appears you might have been banned for referencing "non-mb materials". Let me guess - were you reading the No More Mr Nice Dude Syndrome crap prior to 2011?? I don't doubt that a lot of Glover "Nice Guys" get divorced because he flat out promotes independence and selfish demands as a potential solution for men struggling in their relationships as though their vapid wives will surely respond to this new and improved guy that won't take no crap from a woman {and if they don't who needs them anyway you were trapped into marrying them anyway before you were intergrated}. Then he suggests you find a guy banging lots of women now, like Dr Glover, to emulate and get your manly validation from = families, wives ^^^ who needs them.




> Exposure is part and parcel to the initial steps of Plan TAM. You make it sound like this forum disapproves of exposure, or thinks exposure should happen later on in the process. When R is the goal, surprise exposure followed immediately with setting firm boundaries is what happens on the first day.


This forum isn't a singular voice anywhere. There are posters that come in discouraging exposure all the time. Any given day the advice and mood changes. There are some things somewhat consistent but year to year all forums make significant changes.




> Sometimes we do get some pretty harsh comments. Tbh, I believe a large portion of those are Trolls. Seriously trolls, not just betrayed spouses who have a bad attitude, but true trouble makers. Same with some of the stories about being betrayed (or just treated poorly), where the person becomes argumentative or never takes any of the advice.


I agree. Gus is my guy for sniffing them out and snarking them up and bringing the popcorn. It's the internet after all. 



> When we do get an established member who is perhaps too harsh early on with a new member, the others here generally balance out the discussion.


No forum is magic. We're all just humans doing our best. Sometimes the constant discouragement, negativity and agenda of hopelessness can be a bit annoying to me. I know I'm just a singular anecdotal experience of a great recovery but we've helped and met many many others in real life. Nearly every couple on our team has a story of overcoming immense interpersonal struggles. Your wife was wretched towards you and you maintained hope and kept trying for 30 some years. I don't agree with your conclusions and ideas about helping betrayed husband but after reading your threads a bit I applaud your effort and faithfulness to your vows until the end. She's released you now so I sincerely hope you find a better life for yourself, nice guy or not :grin2:


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## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

@Quality
No matter how it is spun, Plan A has elements that enable the affair because proper bounderies are not enforced.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Quality said:


> Jesus was a nice guy.


But he wasn't a Nice Guy. Big huge difference.




Quality said:


> Nice Guy Syndrome doesn't exist. It's nothing more than the mystical revelations and regurgitations of a deluded adulterer (Dr. Glover} as he was literally inspired by his own rationalizing and justifying while cheating upon and divorcing his first wife.


Since you completely reject the concept of NGS you are completely unqualified to comment on how men with those characteristics are affected by Plan A.


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