# How do you know when you love someone?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

And not just pity love, not sexual love, not lust, not your loneliness talking, not your need for intimacy talking... real love...

How do you know if you love someone? And not just missing someone?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think it something you have to make your own mind up about. Something you have to define for yourself in your own unique way.

Even the greatest of philosophers struggled to define and describe love.


Saying that I believe we can be in love and know it. We don't have much choice. The choice we do have is if and how we enact the love we feel.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

If you have to ask, then you are not in love with that person...


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> How do you know if you love someone?


The morning after, I don't feel like calling the police.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Yeah you guys are right, guess when you put it that way then... nope, I don't love her. Hurts though, when you have a woman who says she loves you but you can't return it. Yet for some reason I still want her back, but that's probably just familiarity and strong sexual chemistry that hasn't changed.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> And not just pity love, not sexual love, not lust, not your loneliness talking, not your need for intimacy talking... real love...
> 
> How do you know if you love someone? And not just missing someone?


Good question. I have been married 3 times. In retrospect my 1st was purely lust.

My second I believe was 'love' at first, then it became more of a friendship.

My last one I thought was love but I didn't really get anything in return..


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## 45188 (Sep 13, 2012)

Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


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## Ostera (Nov 1, 2012)

kipani said:


> Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


If that's the definition then I was in love with my 2nd and 3rd wife. After divorcing the 2nd we stayed friends(close) until she got a new BF who wasn't comfortable with me in the picture as a friend.. that's when I actually had emotional pain.. 

My current stbxw left me in Sept. It hurt when she left.. and news that she is currently dating someone made the wound wider.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

When you want to comfort them before thinking of or taking care of your own pain. What you would do for your children - if you love your spouse, you should want to do the same.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

kipani said:


> Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


Is that really a good test?
Like if I do that, I CAN'T STAND THE THOUGHT... =/
But that's perhaps due to us being still married perhaps? And lust? And having been with her for 7 years? Not true love? Maybe? I dunno lol

Then when I test myself similarly picturing her gone
I CAN'T STAND IT EITHER =/
But that is just fondness and care for her no?



> Good question. I have been married 3 times. In retrospect my 1st was purely lust.
> 
> My second I believe was 'love' at first, then it became more of a friendship.
> 
> My last one I thought was love but I didn't really get anything in return..


Ouch, now that's gotta suck =/



> When you want to comfort them before thinking of or taking care of your own pain. What you would do for your children - if you love your spouse, you should want to do the same.


Then by that definition, nope I don't love her. If I did, I wouldn't have done the sh-t I've done =/

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH So confused!!! As you guys can see lol


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

kipani said:


> Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


Wow - I said this to my hubs once in so many words (I was angry and ready to walk) - "if it doesn't bother you thinking of me s*ing another mans *ick, then you don't love me. You decide." He said he couldn't think about that and had a look of fear and disguest in his eyes. I thought he was going to vomit.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

kipani said:


> Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


I disagree with using this as a way to tell if you love someone or not. In the past, I would be very upset to see certain ex's with someone else, but I didn't love them. It was more about comfort level/familiarity. 

When you love someone, you put them first above yourself and they will do the same for you.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

When I know that they greatly feel the very same way toward me by their thoughts, words, and deeds, putting me first just as I had done for them; when my first thought in the morning and my last thought in the evening is of them; or whenever I'm away from them and absolutely can't wait to see them as soon as I possibly can~ then I know that I'm totally in love and would have no equivocation in finally verbalizing my love and commitment to them!


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## Venusina (May 13, 2012)

A lot of times love gets mixed up with routine. If you are not sure you love her, maybe it's the routine??? For being together 7 years and all the stuff you did, etc.

And as much as I dislike "Time will tell" it's very very true.

Maybe you need time to realize whether you lover her or not, because you are the only one who has the answer and no one else.

Love is different for every single person. I said


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Is that really a good test?
> Like if I do that, I CAN'T STAND THE THOUGHT... =/
> But that's perhaps due to us being still married perhaps? And lust? And having been with her for 7 years? Not true love? Maybe? I dunno lol


Even if you did find out that you do 'love her', sometimes love is not enough. You also have to make sure that you are compatible and will bring out the best in each other. The 2 of you have had numerous problems for quite some time and honestly, I think it's best if you just continue to go your separate ways. Yes, it's hard to break up and move on, as you are experiencing now and questioning everything, but know that you are doing things for the best.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's in you. It's in you to not hurt them, to be you, for them to be themselves. To accept and not want to change them.

But I'm talking about Love. I love many people. Right now I'm going through something with 2 friends. one is good, one is horrible. And even though one is lashing out because she's sad and angry and messed up, I let her lash out and don't lash back. That's Love. I'd gladly take that verbal beating that has NOTHING to do with me, but needs to come out of her.

And the other friend ....it's emotional and spiritually charged. Pure Love isn't about sex or anything of that sort. Just energy and light.


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## ranaz2 (Oct 30, 2012)

kipani said:


> Picture them with someone else and if it hurts, you love em.


That seems more like attachment, not love. And unfortunately, there are many, many people confusing those things on their way down the aisle.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

ranaz2 said:


> That seems more like attachment, not love. And unfortunately, there are many, many people confusing those things on their way down the aisle.


I agree. I loved someone very much but situation was we couldn't be together.

He got married and my heart was happy that he is happy 

When he divorced, my heart hurt because he was hurt.

I still love him. But god forbid I say that! People will stone me to death. I don't speak of Love like most people do. It's beyond anything physical.

(For years before and during his marriage and divorce, we didn't speak...I only heard from mutual friends.)


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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

Anonymous07 said:


> I disagree with using this as a way to tell if you love someone or not. In the past, I would be very upset to see certain ex's with someone else, but I didn't love them. It was more about comfort level/familiarity.
> 
> When you love someone, you put them first above yourself and they will do the same for you.


I just wonder about this. Some people are just plain selfish, egocentric. They work from their needs and perspectives first, then go from there. Does that mean they are not capable of love? I dont really have an answer or opinion, just a hmmm.

I think love is defined differently by everyone. For me, it involves things like respect and care. Do I care about what the other wants, do I want to be a better person because of my feelings for xxx. I don't want to hurt them. I don't disrespect them. It doesn't mean I never screw up. Sometimes I think those issues have more to do with us than them. 
For me the best love comes from friendship (which has all the above) with a nice dose of attraction. I don't buy the in love v. love thing. That in love feeling is dynamic, it comes and goes. Love is contant. It's what keeps you grounded in your relationship even when you want to throw something at your spouse.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

When my husband told me "I'm moving out", my first reaction was to say, "Ok! I mean, if you are moving out, this is important...do what you need to do...I support it."

And it shocked the shet out of him.

But i love him. I love him completely. If he had to move out, clearly there was a problem.

Of course then I cried and asked him to stay but he left and I called my friend and my friend talked me back to my initial state of "go if you have to because I love you".

That proved to my husband and I both that I did truly love him (which he doubted).


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Anonymous07 said:


> Even if you did find out that you do 'love her', sometimes love is not enough. You also have to make sure that you are compatible and will bring out the best in each other. The 2 of you have had numerous problems for quite some time and honestly, I think it's best if you just continue to go your separate ways. Yes, it's hard to break up and move on, as you are experiencing now and questioning everything, but know that you are doing things for the best.


Yes that is true. If things continue as they are though (both of us doing counselling, on the road to recovery), I feel like I would be a fool to throw her away. But if we slip, if things don't change, then you're right, it's just not worth it.

I still don't know whether I can say I love her or not, she reminds me whenever she has a chance and it hurts that I can't recipocate. A part of me just wants to say those words so I can prevent her pain but at the same time I want it to have meaning. I don't take the word love lightly, though... I admit, I'm feeling it now, more each passing day.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Love is something that's impossible to put into words although that girl comes pretty darn close.

To me love is yes being willing to let them go. To let them be them, to let them be free, to love them AS IS without feeling the need to change them, or control them. Love means it's no longer about you. However I do believe you must love yourself FIRST otherwise its impossible to truly love another. Without a strong sense of self you will lose yourself in a relationship.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes. Love of Self. For me, when I Love someone, I truly want only the best for them and sometimes that means they won't be in my life. But I am still fulfilled, knowing I love them and they me.

But, I love many people passionately. Not sexually....just with fierce Love.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And also, with mah fierce Love (haha that makes me laugh), I don't feel pain for long from these people. There is no fighting, there is no arguing. It just is. The 6 or so people in my life where it's pure Love, we have never fought. My husband and I do not fight. Ever. Whatever people do in life is their Path and I am not about to try to control it. If they have to leave, then they have to leave...sure it stings, but I know it's what they need to do. I'm learning to just flow and it's making it easier to Love.

But it's also been my experience that when I Love someone fiercely, it is mutual...so they take care of me too. Right now in my life, I am truly blessed with people who truly Love me. 

Too much? LOL!
To me, that's Love.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry...I'm just totally going through something with someone right now. So this hit close to home.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Whatever people do in life is their Path and I am not about to try to control it.


Love is free so no need to control. Yes it does hurt like hell if they do something you don't like but yes you realize it's not up to you to make them DO anything. They are free and so are you. 

I just recently figured out this kind of love and I have to say it feels GREAT!!!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

When It's Love

I Don't Want To Miss A Thing

And I Love Her

Tighter And Tighter

Good stuff. It is all the above for me.

But true love is when you put their well being above all else. Unselfish. The only caveat is that my wife deserves me to be a man and not a doormat. But indeed, I would give my life for her in a heartbeat. Even better is to give her my life and live it with her.

To me married love also requires the willingness to not only love them with all of your heart but to meet their needs and be the best lover you can be. To create the In Love feelings as well. Those In Love feelings come and go. But they should be renewed continuously because it is another expression of your love.

My wife and I were at dinner last night. She asks me if she was a nice person. We talked about niceness ... Anyway I said you have to be nice to your self. And then half jokingly I said and be nice to your husband. She immediately said that being nice to herslef included me because we were one.

So umteen years ago when I was in an EA and was in denial my wife called out to me as a voice in the fog and I heard her. She pulled me from the abyss. She could have let me fall ... She cared enough to lovingly but firmly tell me I was messing up. I did not understand and I was convinced that it was just a close friendship. But I love my wife above all else. So I trusted my wife. I changed jobs and after withdrawal I knew she was right. But whether she was or was not I was going to listen to her because I truly love her.

So my wife expressed her love by looking out for us. And I listened. That is true love my friend. I wish it for all of us.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Sorry...I'm just totally going through something with someone right now. So this hit close to home.


I don't care what the rest of them say ... you are awesome that girl.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Aw thanks 

I wanted to also say that when we remove Ego from Love, it becomes true Love. The Ego can cause so many issues. I'm not saying be a doormat, but...to feel that type of Love, you have to be raw and vulnerable and without Ego. It's hard ...but doable.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Man, I just spilled all over this thread :rofl:

I am seriously going through some shet. Some amazing spiritual awakenings and having to lose someone for a while. It is difficult. But there's Love...so....it's good.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

For me at least these are things that I think about my wife and I know I love her. 

- I imagine spending my life with her, growing old together, and taking care of her and it makes me happy. 
- I don't care that she's the only person I will have sex with. If someone has to be my last I'm glad it's her. Wish she was my first.
- I think she is genuinely good.
- I'm proud for people to see her with me and even more proud that people she knows see her on my arm.
- I truly believe she is loyal and will always be faithful.
- She's respectful and good to me.

Now there's a long list of bonus things like I think she's hot, funny, etc.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Interesting responses... 



> To me love is yes being willing to let them go.


If she turned around and said that she wants to move on, I wouldn't hold onto her. In fact, during our seperation I took the lead when she was hesitant. Is this love? Or am I just cold-hearted?



> To let them be them, to let them be free, to love them AS IS without feeling the need to change them, or control them. Love means it's no longer about you. However I do believe you must love yourself FIRST otherwise its impossible to truly love another. Without a strong sense of self you will lose yourself in a relationship.


Ok, so would you call the below love?

The only thing I want to change about my wife is her excessive need for sex and her abusive/manipulative ways. She has alot of good qualities but it's just those that I decided I can no longer live with. Since I want to change her and couldn't accept her as she was, I don't love her yes?

I don't know, I'm confuddled


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Interesting responses...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No you can certainly love her. You may not be compatible with her. This happens. 

I think you have been trying to work it out. Not all the people who we love are good for us.

Do you think she has tried to work this out?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well she's most definitely doing everything in her power to work this out, inspiring really, hence I'm pretty much forced to do the same. We're meeting up on Friday and we're planning to work on our dynamics weekly - Codependency in particular we are planning to study together.

I don't know, I still think about her, still miss her, still masturbate over her since D-day  ... shocking! So is it safe to tell her I love her? I just don't want to be cruel and tell her that when it may not be true, but it's just that she keeps reminding me that she loves me (apparently) and everytime I don't recipocate her words it hurts because I can see that it hurts her.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> The only thing I want to change about my wife is her excessive need for sex and her abusive/manipulative ways. She has alot of good qualities but it's just those that I decided I can no longer live with. Since I want to change her and couldn't accept her as she was, I don't love her yes?
> 
> I don't know, I'm confuddled


You have to love and respect yourself and not be treated poorly. So whether you love her or not may be irrelevant. The dynamics are such that you can't be with her and let her treat you in ways the damage your self respect or her respect for you.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I do, and I wouldn't even be thinking about this if my wife didn't pull a 180 on me and decided she wants to fix our marriage... since she did, she's soften up my heart so I'm no longer a harda$$. Hard to be when someone is THAT in your face that she loves you and wants to make it work and has so far done everything right... I dunno =/


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I do, and I wouldn't even be thinking about this if my wife didn't pull a 180 on me and decided she wants to fix our marriage... since she did, she's soften up my heart so I'm no longer a harda$$. Hard to be when someone is THAT in your face that she loves you and wants to make it work and has so far done everything right... I dunno =/


If she's really determined to make it work then she should be open to doing the things that will make it work. But make no mistake that you have to do your part by taking up for yourself. It's not fair to require respectful treatment but then not stand up for yourself when it doesn't happen. The very nature of letting someone treat you bad tears down thier respect for you.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Agreed, I do believe that respect is the foundation of love, and don't worry I'm not about to let us go back to how it was for 4 years. We're working through it, if we turn out to be completely incompatible, then there's no point. But even if it comes to that she's been so much a part of my life and I can never truly hate her - well, unless she steps out on me while I'm being all celibate over here - that would really p-ss me off

I do hope we can persevere. But she's human, and she needs support, her reminding me with her lovey doveys and me not recipocating -> not exactly much support is it?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Well she's most definitely doing everything in her power to work this out, inspiring really, hence I'm pretty much forced to do the same. We're meeting up on Friday and we're planning to work on our dynamics weekly - Codependency in particular we are planning to study together.
> 
> I don't know, I still think about her, still miss her, still masturbate over her since D-day  ... shocking! *So is it safe to tell her I love her?* I just don't want to be cruel and tell her that when it may not be true, but it's just that she keeps reminding me that she loves me (apparently) and everytime I don't recipocate her words it hurts because I can see that it hurts her.


Sorry, I have not kept up. Are you dealing with infidelity? That probably matters in how you approach this. But you indeed do love her. I get why you are confused about it though.

I would think if she says she loves you that you concur you will always love her no matter how things turn out. I would only add that extra information if you are trying to decide whether to work it all out.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Sorry, I have not kept up. Are you dealing with infidelity?


Nope, I mean I hope not lol
She's earned my trust though sometimes I get paranoid...
She would indeed be hurt if I doubted her to her face though, she's earned it over 7 years.



> That probably matters in how you approach this. But you indeed do love her. I get why you are confused about it though.
> 
> I would think if she says she loves you that you concur you will always love her no matter how things turn out. I would only add that extra information if you are trying to decide whether to work it all out.


:scratchhead:
That's what she said, that she will always love me, even if I move on. If that is true... then I feel the same way, even if by that time if we do go our seperate ways the love would be changed to something else - a more platonic form of love. But regardless, she's made too much of an impact on my life for me to just dismiss her out of my life - not to mention I'm stuck with her as she's the mother of my little foot.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Yes that is true. If things continue as they are though (both of us doing counselling, on the road to recovery), I feel like I would be a fool to throw her away. But if we slip, if things don't change, then you're right, it's just not worth it.
> 
> I still don't know whether I can say I love her or not, she reminds me whenever she has a chance and it hurts that I can't recipocate. A part of me just wants to say those words so I can prevent her pain but at the same time I want it to have meaning. I don't take the word love lightly, though... I admit, I'm feeling it now, more each passing day.


You've had quite the history of problems with your 'ex' and I don't see them ever completely going away. You wrote "The only thing I want to change about my wife is her excessive need for sex and her abusive/manipulative ways. She has a lot of good qualities but it's just those that I decided I can no longer live with." The way you write this makes it seem like 'not a big deal', but this is a huge red flag. Being manipulative and abusive is not okay, under any circumstance. You have been toxic for each other for a while and have co-dependency issues. I don't think you love her, but I do think you miss the familiarity of having her around. Change is hard, but you have to make the best decision for yourself.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:iagree: 100%


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> Nope, I mean I hope not lol
> She's earned my trust though sometimes I get paranoid...
> She would indeed be hurt if I doubted her to her face though, she's earned it over 7 years.
> 
> ...


Right. I like the way you let those dominos fall so nicely. 

At some point you may need to move on. It sounds like to me though that you want to give this another shot but need to be careful as this is likely the last chance.

I confess I do not have a good enough feel for what you have been through and I am seeing some very caring people caution you. This makes me wary of encouraging you to re-engage.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

@Anonymous

Yes I thought about that, and that's what is so confusing... =/

@Entropy3000

Yes this is our last chance, we both know this. It's ALOT of work, and even if we do finally come to terms with our toxic dynamics, whether we can prove to each other that we've both changed is going to be difficult. But she wants this chance, told me that if things don't work out at least she can be content that we've both tried.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> @Anonymous
> 
> Yes I thought about that, and that's what is so confusing... =/


I don't get what is confusing about it? Seems pretty simple to me.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Nope, I mean I hope not lol
> She's earned my trust though sometimes I get paranoid...
> She would indeed be hurt if I doubted her to her face though, she's earned it over 7 years.
> 
> ...


This sounds like the ramblings of future recovery but you have issues to iron out for sure.
1. Respect and trust are the foundation for last love. You seem to have those for her. She has to not be abusive/manipulative and you have to call her out when she is. That way she will also respect you.
2. HD/LD is a real problem. If she needs sex more often than you do then you guys need to figure something out. Maybe you go downtown whenever she wants even if you're not in the mood. Anyway it's a real problem not to be dismissed lightly.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well, if my wife didn't pull the 180 on me I would have let her go by now. It's just that she's been doing everything right, and in doing so she actually reminded me of the things that I do love about her. And to tell you the truth, is also inspiring me to fix myself!

Also maybe because most seperated women I've seen turn out to be utter nightmares to their husbands and family and that probably makes me appreciate my wife as well, she could really fk up my life if she wanted to. But just like a spouse who cheated and repented and wants to do whatever it takes to save his/her marriage, my wife is doing the same, even though she didn't cheat on me. It's hard to tell someone to ****** off like this, it's hard to throw away such love.

I already decided that my wife is going to be the last person I will allow myself to love as well, also to be my first and last marriage. I can no longer see the point of loving someone if things don't work out between my wife and I. At one time we were perfect, well... almost. We had a 2 year honeymoon and this was before marriage. Those two years we both remember fondly but could not see how we could have it back as we've both changed and grown for the last 7 years. We are working on it however.

Those 2 years have scarred me for life, I seriously doubt any other woman could have done what she did for me. My wife seriously has no real competition to this day.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> This sounds like the ramblings of future recovery but you have issues to iron out for sure.
> 1. Respect and trust are the foundation for last love. You seem to have those for her. She has to not be abusive/manipulative and you have to call her out when she is. That way she will also respect you.


Yup, that is what I'm working on at the moment - Awareness/Codependency so I CAN call her out without playing a part in her games. For codependency we are meeting up on friday to discuss it, it's going to be a team effort when it comes to that.



> 2. HD/LD is a real problem. If she needs sex more often than you do then you guys need to figure something out. Maybe you go downtown whenever she wants even if you're not in the mood. Anyway it's a real problem not to be dismissed lightly.


Well, we're both HD, hers is just not natural (still waiting for someone to tell me it is) - 3x a day otherwise she gets moody/b-tchy. It's a sex addiction. Surprisingly however she has not cheated on me once, no - instead she has driven me nuts to the point I whined about her sex drive for years.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Well, we're both HD, hers is just not natural (still waiting for someone to tell me it is) - 3x a day otherwise she gets moody/b-tchy. It's a sex addiction.


that....is....AWESOME.

Just kidding Dude. It's her responsibility to realize normal men cannot perform 21 times per week. That's reality whether she thinks it's fair or not. That's even high for HD guys. Seems like her goodies would callus and lose sensation from that often. Anyway, that's what toys are for.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

To me love is comfort a feeling of home and even through the fights there is no place you would rather be or be with. 

I wouldn't trade all the bad for a million dollars. 

I agree with TG, when we split, I just let him go. I wanted to throw my self against the door and beg him to stay, but I couldn't. I love him so I had to let him go. 

Love is thinking of them and it revs your engine. Love is missing the other part of you and wanting to talk to them about a good day, bad day, an indifferent day. Love is no longer being annoyed by their strange habits, it's a part of them. Love is needing that other person. 

It's not a single thing. It's a combo of a lot of little things. It could be as grand as having kids, or as simple as they make some dog ass toast.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thundarr said:


> that....is....AWESOME.
> 
> Just kidding Dude. It's her responsibility to realize normal men cannot perform 21 times per week. That's reality whether she thinks it's fair or not. That's even high for HD guys. Seems like her goodies would callus and lose sensation from that often. Anyway, that's what toys are for.


Tell me about it, worse when she still wanted it when she's sore, still wanted it during those times of the month, and even when we compromised with 1x a day, she still b-tched about it. Even told me that I shouldn't even touch her if I don't want sex, so I don't even get to have affection unless I put out. Wanted to talk to her about having a wedding that we never had because of the rush and panic due to baby bells, nope, just wanted sex, didn't care. Those two things in particular just spelled it out to me as if I just didn't mean SH-T ALL to her. But I had my part to play in all this as well, which I'm doing IC for at the moment, when things go bad I tend to go on self-destructive mode, also have problems with vulnerability... oh hell I should stop before I go on and on and on lol

It was nuts. This seperation has helped us see both of our flaws I guess.

Now I have escaped the beast for a month, yet I've lived with her for 4 years, known her for 7... Hell why do I feel like the donkey from shrek?


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

I think you know you love that person a lot when you are not interested in other people. 

In my case, I know clearly that no other men can make me happy except my husband.

There are men who are wealthy, who have power, who are more handsome, but none of them can get my attention. Because I know I am not interested in them.


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## manonfire (Nov 29, 2012)

I let her drive my car.


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## WillPrez (Dec 8, 2012)

Love is when u take away the passions and the feelings and u find out u still care about the person.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Love is stable. It does not change every week or month. Once established, it is hard to extinguish. 

It is resilient - it can take hits and bumps and be shaken but not broken. It is a feeling that persist even when it were better if it did not. 

If love were weak and mutable, it would not stand the test of time and the thousands of insults that accumulate between two people.

If you are not sure one month and then sure the next, it is not love. 

I am very disturbed when i read your post. 

It always comes back to keeping her off- balance. First it was "teasing" her then making her jealous, then telling her you do not love her because she was weak enough to love you. 

Please let her go. You have no reason to pity her. I pity you because i think what you are doing is cowardly. You beat her down and now you feel sorry for her? 

I try to avoid posting on your threads but I can't help it. The level of cruelty amazes me. 

Horrible.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:scratchhead:

What you mean keeping her off balance? Teasing/making her jealous? WTF? Since when? Where the fk did that come from? 

As for falling out of love however I didn't fall out of love because she was "weak", I just lost respect for her when she broke down - and what makes you think I wanted that? And I sure as hell didn't say "I don't love you because you're weak enough to love me" WTF? Now that's a tripout

Sheez some people have a really warped impression of my marriage it seems. Is it the way I type/come across? What is it? What's with all these strange assumptions when I know I didn't do it let alone post about it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Anonymous07 said:


> If you have to ask, then you are not in love with that person...


Some of us do question our love. It happens when we’re seemingly so deeply attached and intensely bonded with a person who is not treating us well.


We want to know why our attachments and bonds to our partner exist. It’s mainly a question for philosophers, scientists and psychologists. But believe me the lay person will ask himself the question and seek help from wherever he can get it.

The time we mostly question and ask if we love our wife is when our relationship is in deep trouble, as RD’s is. So for me his question is normal, not abnormal and as such is the right thing to be doing.



What I believe RD is struggling with is his attachment to his wife. What sensible person doesn’t ask these questions of themselves? Lets face it, as the sole provider he makes an exceptionally big commitment if he does get back with his wife. He really does need to know why he makes that commitment if indeed he does.

A Brief Overview of Adult Attachment Theory and Research | R. Chris Fraley


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Thanks AFEH, at the moment deep inside I wonder if the codependency stuff contributes to this confusion. For example, I've become extremely used to her games and her manipulations over the last 4 years to the point I may actually be depended on it. Even love her for it?

Breaking the habit and dynamics - I am actually quite happy that my wife is onboard with me about it. I don't think our marriage would stand a chance if she didn't decide that we should be a team and work together again - like we did for 2 years 7 years ago.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

ranaz2 said:


> That seems more like attachment, not love. And unfortunately, there are many, many people confusing those things on their way down the aisle.


I got into attachment theory for a bit. Basically I wanted to know what it was that was keeping me super-glued to my wife.

What actually happens after you've been “down the aisle” is that you get more and more attached. So you become in love with AND attached to your partner. And the longer you've been married the more attached you become.

After a certain number of years or decades together you have an exact replica of your partner living inside of you as though the two of you are one. The attachments form in the deepest parts of our heart, psyche and soul.

It’s what broken hearts are all about when a deeply loved one is lost in an accident. It’s only when they are no longer there, that we cannot touch and feel them, can’t love them, support them anymore that we actually realise how exceptionally deeply attached to them we were.

But the attachments are not just through thoughts and feelings, not just through emotions they are also there with the history there is between the couple.

All those memories from the day they first met, their wedding day, the birth of their children, holidays, all the problems they’ve shared and over come. These memories are probably the deepest form of attachment that a couple will have. Those memories are right there inside our mind ready to be recalled in an instant. They are like full colour videos we can replay at any time and those feelings, emotions we had at the time readily come back.

So anybody here who thinks they aren’t attached to their loved one should think again. You will be deeply attached (and yes “in love”) but like most you will never know how deeply you are attached until you become unattached. With some it never happens because one partner passes away, but the one remaining will come to understand just how deeply they were attached to their partner.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

:scratchhead:

I'm starting to wonder if I'm ever going to figure out if I do truly love her or not, it's so many factors! I wonder how she finds it so easy, I'm almost smothered with ILUs and it sh-ts me I can't recipocate because I'm unsure. Also, I wonder if it's just the attachment as well for her, not real love. Did she prove that she loved me all these years?

In some ways sure in other ways oh hell no... hell I really don't know.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> Thanks AFEH, at the moment deep inside I wonder if the codependency stuff contributes to this confusion. For example, I've become extremely used to her games and her manipulations over the last 4 years to the point I may actually be depended on it. Even love her for it?
> 
> Breaking the habit and dynamics - I am actually quite happy that my wife is onboard with me about it. I don't think our marriage would stand a chance if she didn't decide that we should be a team and work together again - like we did for 2 years 7 years ago.


For the most part my marriage was interdependent. I didn’t have the daily drama/craziness your marriage had. Our drama came along every now and then. But for me it was devastating. So devastating that it took a lot of my time and energy to “recover”. Bit like a guy who’s been hit by a car and needs six months to get to walk again. Sure I could function during that time but most things were on hold.

What actually happens with these “dramas” is that they take time away from your main course in life. They distract and divert you from things you should be doing for the short, medium and long term future.

With yourself the energy and time you should be putting into your business was/is being taken by your marriage. Sure all marriages need energy and time but as the sole breadwinner and a guy who’s not out for a free ride from a woman you need as much time and energy for your business as you can muster and there’s only so much to go around.

That’s where I was with my wife. We’d started out on a totally new lifestyle. I agred to buy the house she wanted in the place she wanted. I was comfortable with it but I’d compromised because that’s how I am. And ****** me she goes and starts another “drama” from which I had to spend time and energy recovering from. I just thought “never again”. It’s just too much time and too much energy spent in the “negative”. Spent in trying to overcome the incompatibilities between the two of us.



How on earth you maintained it, stayed in your drama for five years 24x7 is way beyond me and I’m a reasonably patient and tolerant man who deeply loved and was massively attached to his wife. I’m frging glad the drama is behind me.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Interesting, I guess it's two things really, thinking about it:

1) Holding onto the past
The first two years of our relationship was memorable to say the least for both of us, I was working part-time, didn't have a career back then, she didn't care, and back then she was a spiritual sort (non religious), yet we got along rather famously. We were always a pair and did everything together, we had minor disagreements sure but always compromised for each other - always a team. We grew very close as we both had dark pasts, and we confided in each other.

The problems began with her bible college, I supported her at first, but when she started exhibiting changes which I didn't like, we started arguing, and found for once - we could not compromise. We fought and blamed each other for our relationship breaking down. That was 5 years ago. She broke my heart but I still held on, and I broke hers yet she still held on as well, and it seems to come back to us holding on because of what we had, even during our toxic marriage it seems.

2) Got used to it

I guess unlike your marriage, our problems were consistent. It wasn't like we solved something and then it crept up again out of the blue, it's always something we swept under the rug and then tried to get used to it instead. Instead of sticking up for myself I guess I tried to deal with it, 3x a day, ok whatever, I shouldn't complain as a man etc etc that's what I thought. It started when I began working 84 hours a week when I got married trying to support my pregnant wife without any help from her family (who hated me - and I wanted to prove to them that I can be a provider - and I have succeeded in that), at first I thought of her demands as fair - as we hardly had time together. Obviously that bit me in the a$$.

As for her manipulations, just a part of life, I accepted it, swept it under the rug, and got so used to it I didn't know any other way. Even came to admire her for it - which I do. However I would rather appreciate it if she uses her talents FOR me instead of AGAINST me. Still, I figured "well I can't ask for everything can I?", as she proved herself very useful. So hence - I failed to establish boundaries.

Now after 4 years of marriage, it reached the breaking point when enough is enough I guess.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

ranaz2 said:


> That seems more like attachment, not love. And unfortunately, there are many, many people confusing those things on their way down the aisle.


Some husbands are as attached to their wives as mothers are to their children.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> What you mean keeping her off balance? Teasing/making her jealous? WTF? Since when? Where the fk did that come from?
> 
> ...


No you come across as loving your wife and having a lot of respect for her especially respect of how she's handling her end of your troubles.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well I'm still unsure about the loving wife part lol

But yes, I do respect her especially how she's handling this seperation, she and I went smoothly into co-parenting and our daughter is still herself, smiling and of course, acting out with my wife but not with me (lol) - but that's because the two spend more time together I guess.

After D-day I felt indifferent but with her recent developments I never thought I would say it but - I admire her and I'm actually inspired by her recently. I just hope she doesn't screw it up nor me because this IS our last chance to make it work.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I promise you, she will eff up. I promise that you will too. Just a time or two....don't be disappointed if it happens, watch and see how she recovers and makes it right again. THAT is the gravy there.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well... I do kinda expect her to be trying to play games with me eventually and vice versa - the toxic dynamics is still a habit that we both need to break, hence that's why I made it imperative that we study codependency ASAP on our next meetup which she has agreed to. 

Hopefully we can establish new boundaries in the process, and maybe she has fresh ideas of her own. Who knows, maybe we'll mess it up, but maybe we'll surprise each other 
As my wife says, it's in God's hands now, and we can only do our best.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's a constant choice, when relating to people, how you react or behave. 

God's hands or not, its your choice.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

True, the problem also exists when one feels that one doesn't have a choice. For example, during such games, one may feel cornered and playing the same game back may seem to be the only solution. Even though there are choices, the parties involved in particular might not be able to see it.

Hence I'm glad that I found this book on codependency, and abit excited about discussing it with my wife. As Darlene the author also mentioned, it might even be fun!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

If one feels cornered...there is still choice. You can get yourself out calming but firmly.

But to get to that state of self-awareness will help you guys.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Most definitely!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> And not just pity love, not sexual love, not lust, not your loneliness talking, not your need for intimacy talking... real love...
> 
> How do you know if you love someone? And not just missing someone?


Missing someone goes away with time or lessens with time.Loving someone sticks with you.You remember the good times and the bad times but you still smile when you think of the person and wish for them to have all the happiness in the world.If you just miss them you'll only focus on the good things and rewrite/forget about the bad times...you'll hope they're thinking of you and pining for you rather than hoping they are fulfilled and happy even if it's not with you.

I knew I was in love when I was able to be happy and fulfilled on my own but things simply weren't as sweet for me.It wasnt that I was missing anything within myself,it was that having my SO adds to my happiness and fulfillment.

Real love for me is knowing having him in my life as a friend is better than not having him in my life at all.Real love is knowing I will give him all that I can but I won't sacrifice my own mental health for his sake or the sake of the relationship.

Real love is needing him and desiring him to this day even though I've known him since we were kids.needing,and desiring him even though I got to have his warm beautiful body next to me,on top of me,under me..every single night for over a year. I've never been that way with anyone.

There are so many other ways to tell when you're in love and when you truly love someone.

I don't think you can really love someone until you know yourself through and through.I also don't think you can truly love anyone until you respect yourself,can stand alone and be happy,and are capable of stepping outside yourself to understand another person's feelings and needs.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I just wrote a lengthy post then my power went off... BAH! Ne ways, small update... long story short -> wife and I managed to get through our discussion and study into codependency without much drama. It felt like we were surrendering our guns to each other, but we're coming to understand each other and the games alot more. The one thing I AM worried about however, is that we finally broke when it comes to celibacy.

She said to let her deal with her issues with her counsellor instead of me trying to play expert (good point, me playing 'expert' started all of this), and that she rejected me the last time because she just didn't feel ready, but now she feels more centered. Well, I couldn't resist the opportunity... surprisingly she didn't attach any strings on it.

If anything though she's confusing me all the more because now I feel that I may in fact, still love her. But hell I don't know what love is, this is just emotions going all over the place yes? =/


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> I just wrote a lengthy post then my power went off... BAH! Ne ways, small update... long story short -> wife and I managed to get through our discussion and study into codependency without much drama. It felt like we were surrendering our guns to each other, but we're coming to understand each other and the games alot more. The one thing I AM worried about however, is that we finally broke when it comes to celibacy.
> 
> She said to let her deal with her issues with her counsellor instead of me trying to play expert (good point, me playing 'expert' started all of this), and that she rejected me the last time because she just didn't feel ready, but now she feels more centered. Well, I couldn't resist the opportunity... surprisingly she didn't attach any strings on it.
> 
> *If anything though she's confusing me all the more because now I feel that I may in fact, still love her*. But hell I don't know what love is, this is just emotions going all over the place yes? =/


Dude, my lovedar has been going off based on how you talk about her. Seems like compatibility is the hurdle.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Lovedar? :rofl:
Perhaps, I don't know... seems like it though

She did ask for reassurance, I told her my feelings but didn't tell her the lovey doveys just yet, not until I'm sure. She seems content with it, maybe her lovedar went off as well so I didn't really need to tell her the ILUs - for now. I dunno

Have to admit it though, I feel like singing this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQlIhraqL7o

 lol


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

I think the difference is whether you would rather endure your own unhappiness than theirs. I used to tell my exH that I wanted to die first because I couldn't bear the thought of being without him. Now I am remarried and when our time comes I hope I outlive my husband so I can always be there for him.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Merry xmas folks btw 

Just an update...

My wife just gave me the time of my life last night for my birthday, she really brought the party, told her I want a quiet birthday/xmas but instead she brought in an fking army to trash it. Heh, guess she knew when I said I want a quiet birthday I actually meant "I want a fking party with music and lights and booze and going fking wild (within limits of course, there were kids lol)... but I'm just depressed, so leave me alone!" 

Strange really, we have yet to be in disagreement since seperation and even when we are, we both been managed to find common ground. For FOUR years we couldn't when we were under the same roof, and now since seperation she's been fking awesome again, and talk about timing, it's xmas! So of course she's going to be awesome right? I just have to wait until next year heh

Feelings are coming back it seems, slowly, but that's not love I don't think. I dunno, there's so many definitions of love now I think I've confused myself even more lol

Anyways folks, merry xmas!


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Oh ffs, there's a thread for you guys here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...on/63499-where-do-these-accusations-come.html

If you have a beef with me, lay it out there, stop hijacking every thread I make. I'm not going to change what I say on this forum, this is a FORUM, I express my thoughts here, my decisions in RL are my own. If you wish to judge me for whatever crosses my mind, that's your prerogative.

I'm sorry that I am not suffering your pathetic ideals of "justice". Do you see me following people around using their personal stories to attack them on their own threads? Let alone yours?
Get a grip, you're all mature enough to be my mothers. Act like it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Trenton said:


> There is no "we" or "us" vs. "you" mentality here, at least not for me. The sooner you understand that I write to you based upon my sole perception, the more likely you are to understand that it is sincere and based upon all of your writings...both deleted and otherwise.
> 
> So I don't need to read/respond to your other thread. I don't dislike you essentially. I find you very immature in regards to experience and unable to consider any advice that is not specifically pro you, but that's beside the point.
> 
> ...


Of course you don't want to post on that thread which I have made specifically to deal with these misconceptions -> You're solely interested in following me around posting on my threads where you can hijack and insult me. It's frankly pathetic.

You are entitled to your own opinion, and I disagree. You have repeatedly ignored my request for you to leave me alone, continued to judge me as what now? "Immature", "pompous", "self-righteous", "views wife as pawn on my chessboard" :rofl:

Pompous and self-righteous eh? Talk about projection, do you see me coming onto people's threads, following them around, using their personal stories/thoughts to insult and JUDGE them - especially when they have already informed me that their opinion is unhelpful and missing the point? Projection at it's finest!

Immature eh? Do you ever see me name-calling, personally insulting them or disrespecting any member here for their opinions, their experiences, or their thoughts in any particular manner? Projection once again, this is comical! I'm in my 20s and you're what? Grow up!

As for the games with my wife, it's our dynamics that we are trying to change now. You think this is a one-sided affair? We're working on it, and the last thing I need while I'm working with my wife through this is more repeated jabs when I come on this forum asking for advice. And of course I don't listen to YOUR "advice", it sounds like it comes from a 6-yr old with all the name-calling, I have told you repeatedly I'm not interested in your childish insults, but you persist... pffft.

And for the record, I've already stopped drinking AGES ago, of course I'm feeling better now and my posts are more stable -> I haven't just walked out of a divorce-fight completely confused and wondering what the f--k just happened like what happened 1 month ago... sheez. I needed to vent, and I make no apologies for my thoughts. This is a FORUM FFS!

If you don't like what you read, change the thread. If you have differing opinions, sure, post them. If your opinions are nothing but personal attacks, insults and judgements - and the poster has repeatedly told you that you're anything but helpful, respect them as per forum rules. No, instead you want to satisfy your little vendetta. Get a life will ya?

Don't presume to know anything about what goes on in my marriage, I've made a thread to deal with misconceptions, yours however should be visible for all to see if that is truly what you wish.


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