# Love life dead. Marriage in Jeopardy.



## MarriageInJeopardy

Been reading a lot of these threads, so I cannot say I am a lot in my situation. However, mine is a bit unique. Things changed about a year ago. Wife and I had an amazingly close relationship until then. There were a lot of downsizing and admin changes at her job, so this had added to her stress. In addition, we've been planning for a baby since 2013. Unfortunately, life got in the way. I lost a parent the first year, and 2014 I lost an aunt. My wife was very supportive during this time and agreed that I had to be there for my blood family as it was in disarray. During this time, I had to also be admitted to the hospital quite a few times due to some prior injuries I sustained in my teens and young adult life. Again, my wife was supportive and helped me through everything. When life was really hard for me, she really supported me like a rock. Most would had probably ran away. Unfortunately, this delayed us for trying until mid to late 2014. Please take note, she was now her late thirties. All her friends and co-workers are either now pregnant or already have children. She says, others are/were questioning when she will be popping out a child or two. Our sex life wasn't great, maybe once a week or once every two weeks, but I didn't fuss. Her body, not going to push for more. During her ovulation times, we tried for about six months, and then she gave up because she wasn't getting pregnant. She then started to become mean and distant. First to me, then others have noticed it as well. Sex stopped around the late spring of 2015. She says she has zero interest, sorry. Got her a counselor, but didn't like the first one. We then both saw the second one, but now that is on hold. The counselor is on leave because of her maternity leave. She may be back in February, but has been off since December and she gave us no one to see in the meantime. I asked my wife several times to contact her or let's find another counselor. At first she agreed, but now, six weeks later, she's yet to contact the counselor, nor look for another one. Apparently, she's not crazy with the first two that I found, and she will find another one. Her moods/personality are all over the place. Sometimes she's happy, then sad, but mostly mad. Blames me constantly for her not becoming pregnant at 38, 39, and now 40. It's all my fault because of my family and medical issues. I offered IVF, but she's afraid of the tests and health risks. She now says, she's probably too old to conceive anyway, thanks again hubby for this. She then said, I am sorry I cannot meet you sexual needs. If you want to have sex with another woman, you have my permission. I got very offended and looked at her like she had 18 eyes. I said do you know what marriage is (it's her second)? For better or for worse. Good times or bad. I would NEVER in my world do something like that. Intimacy is important for a marriage, but that is between the two people who are married, not flings. She then said. Fine. Do you want me to leave then? I said no. I want to bring us back to where we were. I cannot see myself with anyone but you. 

I really have no idea what to do here. I am grasping at straws hoping things will turn around. It's been a year or so, and nothing has changed. We sleep in separate rooms (she is a tosser/turner), but I wanted us to try to sleep again in the same bed. No she said. I said we're basically roommates, this is not a marriage. Sorry she said. I wish things were different, but I do not know what to tell you.

Help.


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## Marduk

You guys don't really have a marriage.

Why are you trying to save it?


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## 225985

She is obviously angry about not conceiving. Without talking to a specialist you will never know what is/was the problem. Take the initiate and schedule an appointment with a specialist. Don't ask her first but calmly tell her you are going and you want her to come with you. The doctor will tell you the risks of any pregnancy at 40+. Also, forget sleeping in separate bed due to tossing and turning. It is extremely important you sleep in same bed. Step up and return to your bed. 

Now, she might not go to doctor with you. She might walk out of room when you get into the bed. Either or both will tell you that your marriage may be over or not fixable. 

But don't believe if you manage to conceive in the next year that all your problems will go away.


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## Buddy400

With no kids, why put up with this?


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## Quigster

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I really have no idea what to do here. I am grasping at straws hoping things will turn around.


Hmm. No offense, but I don't like your username. You should not let your current problems define your identity here. (Unless you do turn things around and you can continue to use the name ironically, I suppose.)

First off: Was sleeping in different beds her idea, or yours? You mentioned she tosses and turns a lot. For over-the-counter solutions, I find that Advil PM works very well (either for her, to put her in a deeper sleep with less movement, or for you, to enable you to sleep through it soundly).

You cannot continue to allow personal tragedy to interrupt your long-term goals. I guarantee that every single year you're together, something will get in the way. Maybe not a death in the family, but something. My wife have dealt with problems seemingly non-stop. One year the condo caught on fire. The next, our fridge died and all our food was spoiled. Somebody totaled our van. We had a flood in the storage room. If we'd kept waiting for there to be no outstanding issues before we had kids, then we'd still be waiting to this day.

Talk to her about what's going on and get her feelings out in the open. She doesn't get to support you, to be there for your during times of hardship, and then blame you for it afterwards. No woman is too old to have kids unless she's stopped ovulating. Yes, there are health risks associated with having a baby later in life, but there are plenty of early detection methods for potential problems. 

Ignore the people who are telling you to just drop everything and leave her. I seriously don't even know why people are doling out destructive advice like that.


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## OpenWindows

Have any of these counselors evaluated her for depression?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

She's been to two therapists. The first one by herself, the second with me. The first one she said was a whack job. The second one was good, but is on mat. leave right now. She was going to reach out to her and see when she was resuming her sessions, however, she's yet to do this yet.

I am in the master bedroom, she's in the guest bedroom. She has trouble sleeping and she refuses to be in the same bed. Mine or the guest bed.

I've been trying for the last year and a half to try and conceive. She is the one who's avoiding intercourse, not me. She blames me because she tested her cervix or something at 37-38, and the dr said she had perfect numbers. Unfortunately, I was in the hospital and dealing with deaths in the family. She blames me of delaying children due to this. Not sure how she came to this conclusion, but she does blame me for this. Then she went around saying to me that I never wanted kids and that is why I delayed things. Again, not sure how she got this in her head, as I've been chasing her around for intimacy, especially around her ovulation dates. It is not my fault that there were deaths in the fam, nor that I was admitted into the hospital and given powerful meds to handle pain. When I got home from the hospital, she avoided sex, because she didn't want a kid with issues due to the pain killer IVs they gave to me.

I put up with this as she said, and I honestly believe, that she's depressed. Marriage is for better or worse. I do love her deeply. This is the depression talking, not the woman I married. She keeps on saying she doesn't understand why her life is the way it is. "Her marriage is a wreck, no children, and now her job is in jeopardy as well. What did I do to deserve this." Now, she says, we can have sex, but with a condom. She has offered BJs in the past, and I've declined them as well. I said, since you have no interest, then what is the point. Sex is for two people, not one to enjoy. On one side of things, she says all I ever wanted in life is a child, now, on each opportunity, she doesn't want to try or do IVF. In addition, she was married in her 20's and early 30's, why did she never try then? I am confused. Is it social pressure? Family pressure? She said she loves me deeply as well. I just do not know what to do. I do not want to give up on her, or us.

She says we have problems, but she will not elaborate. I just do not know what to do.


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## OpenWindows

Could she be afraid to start raising a child at 40? The thought is a bit daunting. She might still be physically able to conceive with help, but not emotionally willing to be raising a teenager while in her late 50's or early 60's. I can see the potential for a lot of conflicting emotions there.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Quigster said:


> Hmm. No offense, but I don't like your username. You should not let your current problems define your identity here. (Unless you do turn things around and you can continue to use the name ironically, I suppose.)
> 
> First off: Was sleeping in different beds her idea, or yours? You mentioned she tosses and turns a lot. For over-the-counter solutions, I find that Advil PM works very well (either for her, to put her in a deeper sleep with less movement, or for you, to enable you to sleep through it soundly).
> 
> You cannot continue to allow personal tragedy to interrupt your long-term goals. I guarantee that every single year you're together, something will get in the way. Maybe not a death in the family, but something. My wife have dealt with problems seemingly non-stop. One year the condo caught on fire. The next, our fridge died and all our food was spoiled. Somebody totaled our van. We had a flood in the storage room. If we'd kept waiting for there to be no outstanding issues before we had kids, then we'd still be waiting to this day.
> 
> Talk to her about what's going on and get her feelings out in the open. She doesn't get to support you, to be there for your during times of hardship, and then blame you for it afterwards. No woman is too old to have kids unless she's stopped ovulating. Yes, there are health risks associated with having a baby later in life, but there are plenty of early detection methods for potential problems.
> 
> Ignore the people who are telling you to just drop everything and leave her. I seriously don't even know why people are doling out destructive advice like that.



Initially, it was mine because none of us were getting any sleep and she has a tendency to sometimes punch and kick. I've already been punched and kicked, so it's a problem. I offered to buy a larger bed or two beds, she will not have it. I offered for her to pick out a bed and I will pay for it, no luck there either. I've tried to tell her about a sleep aid, nope, she will not take drugs.

The waiting was a combination of meds and deaths. Since I was unable to move, she refused to have intercourse. I did say let's go, but she refused. Other days, she wouldn't due to the meds in my system. This was only 6 - 8 months. After I was better and got through the grief, I was chasing her, and after a few months, she had no interest.

I've tried, she either says sorry, or she doesn't know what to tell me. She can be cold at times. If she doesn't want to do something, she just won't do it. This is something new. 

I am trying to work things out, but I feel I am the only one trying in the relationship. She disagrees, but she cannot say what she does, aside from buy dinner from time to time.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Have any of these counselors evaluated her for depression?


Not yet, but we both know she's depressed. When she's home, she's usually sleeping. She refuses to go to an MD. Not any time from work she says.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Could she be afraid to start raising a child at 40? The thought is a bit daunting. She might still be physically able to conceive with help, but not emotionally willing to be raising a teenager while in her late 50's or early 60's. I can see the potential for a lot of conflicting emotions there.


Not sure. She says the marriage is having issues. Depending on the day, the cause changes. Sometimes, its the work. No kids. Me. The world, etc. Maybe she thinks I will leave. I've said, if I was going to give up, I would have already. I am trying to work this out for both of us. We met when she was 36, I am not sure what I could had done before this. She has become a very negative person, whereas I've become more positive over time. When my crisis's happened, it was the other way around. She was very supportive now. However, nowadays, if I ask her for anything or do anything, it's a struggle. My friend says, it sounds like she's a perfect wife; as long as you do not need or bother her for anything. Please note, she was NEVER like this. She was the most giving and kind person around. Since 2015, she's quite the opposite. Whereas, I need to clean up after her, dishes, clothes, etc. It's been trying to say the least.


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## BetrayedDad

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> *Sex stopped around the late spring of 2015. * She says she has zero interest, sorry. Got her a counselor, but didn't like the first one. We then both saw the second one, but now that is on hold. The counselor is on leave because of her maternity leave. She may be back in February, but has been off since December and she gave us no one to see in the meantime. I asked my wife several times to contact her or let's find another counselor. At first she agreed, but now, six weeks later, she's yet to contact the counselor, nor look for another one. Apparently, she's not crazy with the first two that I found, and she will find another one. *Her moods/personality are all over the place. Sometimes she's happy, then sad, but mostly mad.* Blames me constantly for her not becoming pregnant at 38, 39, and now 40. It's all my fault because of my family and medical issues. I offered IVF, but she's afraid of the tests and health risks. She now says, she's probably too old to conceive anyway, thanks again hubby for this. *She then said, I am sorry I cannot meet you sexual needs. If you want to have sex with another woman, you have my permission.* I got very offended and looked at her like she had 18 eyes. I said do you know what marriage is (it's her second)? For better or for worse. Good times or bad. I would NEVER in my world do something like that. Intimacy is important for a marriage, but that is between the two people who are married, not flings. *She then said. Fine. Do you want me to leave then?*


She's cheating on you... 

Start investigating IMMEDIATELY. 

You're being played for a fool.


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## TheTruthHurts

Several things...

Eggs can be extracted and frozen. I'd advise that. We did and subsequently had 5 kids via IVF. The eggs are aged according to when they were cryogenically frozen so they stay at age 39 or 40 etc.

This will give you breathing room. My wife went through a simple process but gave herself shots in the hip if I recall, then the eggs were harvested via laparoscopic procedure. That was 18 years ago so I assume there got this down cold now (pun intended)

With regard to the tossing and turning - could be dry skin - maybe more water. Maybe less sugar. W had that problem but above and losing a few pounds addressed it.

Third - yes same bed!

Fourth - yes, take charge! You'll lose her anyway if you don't so what have you got to lose? She gets pissed off? That's ok. Everything - MC, IC, doc for the restlessness, etc. You need to lead here

Maybe a grief counselor or something. Like it if not she is grieving and feels she missed her window to have kids. If she doesn't blame herself, she has to blame you. She realizes she made foolish choices and is now letting it all ball up in an emotional ball of sh*t and guess who's collateral damage - you


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## TheTruthHurts

What I said AND betrayed dads comments. I'd be investigating like a hawk for other predators


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## Marc878

Wanting a child could be a large problem.

However, just to be on the safe side check yor phone bill. At least eliminate that.

Look for a lot of calls/texts to a specific number. It doesn't sound like it but rule it out.

Go online and check it out. Takes 30 minutes.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

BetrayedDad said:


> She's cheating on you...
> 
> Start investigating IMMEDIATELY.
> 
> You're being played for a fool.


She's not. I am with her on the weekends, and she comes home like clockwork around the same time. However, I initially thought the same, so I asked her point blank. She said no, I do not cheat. I am not in to adultery.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Several things...
> 
> Eggs can be extracted and frozen. I'd advise that. We did and subsequently had 5 kids via IVF. The eggs are aged according to when they were cryogenically frozen so they stay at age 39 or 40 etc.
> 
> This will give you breathing room. My wife went through a simple process but gave herself shots in the hip if I recall, then the eggs were harvested via laparoscopic procedure. That was 18 years ago so I assume there got this down cold now (pun intended)
> 
> With regard to the tossing and turning - could be dry skin - maybe more water. Maybe less sugar. W had that problem but above and losing a few pounds addressed it.
> 
> Third - yes same bed!
> 
> Fourth - yes, take charge! You'll lose her anyway if you don't so what have you got to lose? She gets pissed off? That's ok. Everything - MC, IC, doc for the restlessness, etc. You need to lead here
> 
> Maybe a grief counselor or something. Like it if not she is grieving and feels she missed her window to have kids. If she doesn't blame herself, she has to blame you. She realizes she made foolish choices and is now letting it all ball up in an emotional ball of sh*t and guess who's collateral damage - you



Offered the egg freezing several times, as well as to pay for it. She said no. She's afraid of the egg tests as well as the drugs that they will make her take.

I've tried to get her back into the master bedroom, we've had arguments on it. She refuses. Says she cannot get a good nights sleep.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Marc878 said:


> Wanting a child could be a large problem.
> 
> However, just to be on the safe side check yor phone bill. At least eliminate that.
> 
> Look for a lot of calls/texts to a specific number. It doesn't sound like it but rule it out.
> 
> Go online and check it out. Takes 30 minutes.


I've reviewed her cell several times, with her permission. She doesn't use any other phone. No, she doesn't have a burner phone either.


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## MJJEAN

My guess? When she was married in her 20's and 30's, she thought she had plenty of time to have a baby. Then the marriage failed. She married you at 36, has little time left to conceive without medical intervention, and then there are delays. Add in the marriage having problems, her feeling her job is in jeopardy, and of course she's depressed! She needs to get back to counseling, so make that a priority.

If you are both still interested in trying to conceive, I suggest going to a reproductive specialist. The tests and treatment the average OB/GYN runs aren't sufficient when you're talking about trying to conceive at 35+.


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## frusdil

I'd say she's resentful at not being able to conceive. I can't say I blame her either...I don't understand why, apart from your injury you delayed it? I know there were deaths in the family but really? My dad died in 2012 and apart from the first few weeks of really raw grief, we continued with our plans. Are you sure there's not more going on here? With you putting it off I mean...do you genuinely want children?


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## OpenWindows

Remember, having kids isn't just about getting pregnant. You spend the next 20 years or so raising them. She sees her window for that closing, and she's not handling it well. So she strikes out and blames you, because people feel better when they have people to blame.

Don't wait for her to find a therapist herself... start finding one for her. She is depressed and will not self-motivate. She supported you, and now she needs you to step up and support her.


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## Marc878

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've reviewed her cell several times, with her permission. She doesn't use any other phone. No, she doesn't have a burner phone either.


Her phone or the bill? Calls and texts can be deleted. Looking at a phone tells you nothing. Unless you recover the deleted text messages/calls.


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## BetrayedDad

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> so I asked her point blank. She said no, I do not cheat. I am not in to adultery.


And this satisfies you?

Oh boy.......
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt

This sounds like early menopause.

It should be checked out by a doctor and the sooner the better.


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## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> She's cheating on you...
> 
> Start investigating IMMEDIATELY.
> 
> You're being played for a fool.


Or has a zero sex drive.


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## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She's not. I am with her on the weekends, and she comes home like clockwork around the same time. However, I initially thought the same, so I asked her point blank. She said no, I do not cheat. I am not in to adultery.


Then that settles it! After all, everyone who cheats and lies tells the truth when asked! 

Seriously, though, that means absolutely nothing.

If you want to know the truth, see the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html and start playing James Bond.

But if I were in your situation, I would just file for divorce. Who cares if she's cheating? She certainly isn't doing anything for you!


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## BetrayedDad

@MattMatt Doubtful... if that was the case she still wouldn't be telling him to go fvck other chicks.

The wife is completely checkout and his head is deep in the sand.

Only one reason I can think of why she's being ice cold.

Investigate thoroughly OP. Don't be a chump.


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## MJJEAN

MattMatt said:


> This sounds like early menopause.
> 
> It should be checked out by a doctor and the sooner the better.


Perimenopause wrecks just as much hormonal havoc as pregnancy and menopause do and it's not uncommon for women to begin perimenopause in their mid 30's to early 40's. 

OP, are you familiar with your wife's menstrual cycle? Is she irregular? Does her cycle vary month to month in terms of length?

If her menstrual cycles are off, chances are she is in perimenopause and should have it verified by her doctor.

If it is perimenopause, her sex drive could be tanking and it would explain moodiness, too.


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## MJJEAN

BetrayedDad said:


> @MattMatt Doubtful... if that was the case she still wouldn't be telling him to go fvck other chicks.


If she is in menopause or perimenopause, it's entirely possible her sex drive tanked. Add in an unrealized desire to have a child, she might even feel the act of sex is completely pointless since it would yield no fruit.

It's not that uncommon for women who have lost their sex drives to offer to allow their husbands outside sexual release in order to keep them. To their minds, their sexually unsatisfied husbands will either cheat or leave looking for sex. By allowing them to find sexual release outside the marriage, the wives think their husbands will be content and have no reason to leave.


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## MattMatt

BetrayedDad said:


> @MattMatt Doubtful... if that was the case she still wouldn't be telling him to go fvck other chicks.
> 
> The wife is completely checkout and his head is deep in the sand.
> 
> Only one reason I can think of why she's being ice cold.
> 
> Investigate thoroughly OP. Don't be a chump.


Not doubtful at all! That is exactly the offer my wife made me when she began going through the menapause. I declined it as gracefully as I could.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OpenWindows

BetrayedDad said:


> Only one reason I can think of why she's being ice cold.


C'mon now... She's depressed and struggling with the fact that she might never have a child, and cheating is the ONLY reason you can think of? Not everything is about infidelity. Some women struggle with things other than who to have sex with.


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## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She's not. I am with her on the weekends, and she comes home like clockwork around the same time. However, I initially thought the same, so I asked her point blank. She said no, I do not cheat. I am not in to adultery.


Seriously? I wish betrayed husbands would quit saying this.


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## Chaparral

​


MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've reviewed her cell several times, with her permission. She doesn't use any other phone. No, she doesn't have a burner phone either.


Good lord, this is approaching a record for being naïve.

Do you think private eyes just go up and ask people if they are cheating?


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## BetrayedDad

OpenWindows said:


> C'mon now... She's depressed and struggling with the fact that she might never have a child, and cheating is the ONLY reason you can think of? Not everything is about infidelity. Some women struggle with things other than who to have sex with.


Or it's an excuse she uses to justify her cheating. EVERY WS has a sob story. If she's in an affair, she will demonize OP as best as she can. Lack of conception is as good an excuse as any.


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## Chaparral

frusdil said:


> I'd say she's resentful at not being able to conceive. I can't say I blame her either...I don't understand why, apart from your injury you delayed it? I know there were deaths in the family but really? My dad died in 2012 and apart from the first few weeks of really raw grief, we continued with our plans. Are you sure there's not more going on here? With you putting it off I mean...do you genuinely want children?


People trying to have a baby have sex........a lot. Not just trying to poke when the moon is right. Six months of trying and then she quit? Please.

She is okay with him banging someone else? She wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire.

His story has been seen here so many times its a cliché. She may not be cheating but there are as many red flags flying here as you will ever see.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

frusdil said:


> I'd say she's resentful at not being able to conceive. I can't say I blame her either...I don't understand why, apart from your injury you delayed it? I know there were deaths in the family but really? My dad died in 2012 and apart from the first few weeks of really raw grief, we continued with our plans. Are you sure there's not more going on here? With you putting it off I mean...do you genuinely want children?


Guess you maybe misread my OP. I will try to be a bit clearer.

I've been trying to get her to try with me for more than 1.5 years She has no interest in any type of intercourse.

As for my medical issues, usually there's little a person can do when their back goes out and entertains the fun filled event of surgery.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Remember, having kids isn't just about getting pregnant. You spend the next 20 years or so raising them. She sees her window for that closing, and she's not handling it well. So she strikes out and blames you, because people feel better when they have people to blame.
> 
> Don't wait for her to find a therapist herself... start finding one for her. She is depressed and will not self-motivate. She supported you, and now she needs you to step up and support her.


I plan to do this.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

MattMatt said:


> Or has a zero sex drive.


She says she has no sex drive.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

technovelist said:


> Then that settles it! After all, everyone who cheats and lies tells the truth when asked!
> 
> Seriously, though, that means absolutely nothing.
> 
> If you want to know the truth, see the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html and start playing James Bond.
> 
> But if I were in your situation, I would just file for divorce. Who cares if she's cheating? She certainly isn't doing anything for you!


Very hard to do. I care and love her. I believe in being with someone through the best and worst times in our lives. I am not too keen in abandoning her in her time of need.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> Perimenopause wrecks just as much hormonal havoc as pregnancy and menopause do and it's not uncommon for women to begin perimenopause in their mid 30's to early 40's.
> 
> OP, are you familiar with your wife's menstrual cycle? Is she irregular? Does her cycle vary month to month in terms of length?
> 
> If her menstrual cycles are off, chances are she is in perimenopause and should have it verified by her doctor.
> 
> If it is perimenopause, her sex drive could be tanking and it would explain moodiness, too.



Her menstrual cycle can be a day to a few days late at times. I think about six times or so this past year.


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## MattMatt

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She says she has no sex drive.


Welcome to my world. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> If she is in menopause or perimenopause, it's entirely possible her sex drive tanked. Add in an unrealized desire to have a child, she might even feel the act of sex is completely pointless since it would yield no fruit.
> 
> It's not that uncommon for women who have lost their sex drives to offer to allow their husbands outside sexual release in order to keep them. To their minds, their sexually unsatisfied husbands will either cheat or leave looking for sex. By allowing them to find sexual release outside the marriage, the wives think their husbands will be content and have no reason to leave.


I could never do that. It's not in me. If it were to come to that, as hard as it would be, I'd just leave. There's no point in marriage if any spouse was going to do that. I am hoping to reverse that.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

MattMatt said:


> Not doubtful at all! That is exactly the offer my wife made me when she began going through the menapause. I declined it as gracefully as I could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Were you able to work things out?


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## OpenWindows

You can want something very much, and still be afraid. 

If she's worried about the effect having a child will have at her age, or she's afraid of finding out for sure that she can't have one, she might avoid sex. And depression is a serious libido killer (would also explain her lack of motivation and not doing chores). Find her a good therapist that she's comfortable with before you make any major decisions.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> C'mon now... She's depressed and struggling with the fact that she might never have a child, and cheating is the ONLY reason you can think of? Not everything is about infidelity. Some women struggle with things other than who to have sex with.


I've been offering to try all the time for the last 1.5 years or so. Pay for egg harvesting and testing as well as IVF. What else can I do?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> ​
> Good lord, this is approaching a record for being naïve.
> 
> Do you think private eyes just go up and ask people if they are cheating?


I have access to her bills. There are no unidentified numbers on the phone.


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## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> Not doubtful at all! That is exactly the offer my wife made me when she began going through the menapause. I declined it as gracefully as I could.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know using your wife as an example is wrong. She actually told you she was going to have an affair and expected you to be ok with it.

If depression is the problem and she is so bad she doesn't care who her husband f*cks, she needs to be admitted before she hurts herself.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> People trying to have a baby have sex........a lot. Not just trying to poke when the moon is right. Six months of trying and then she quit? Please.
> 
> She is okay with him banging someone else? She wouldn't spit on him if he was on fire.
> 
> His story has been seen here so many times its a cliché. She may not be cheating but there are as many red flags flying here as you will ever see.


That is what I do not understand. If she had been so baby crazy, she'd be like me and want to have sex all the time. She's NEVER, been sex crazy. Once a week, maybe twice, if I am lucky. Once on the day of ovulation, even though drs suggest otherwise. Her claim was more sex weakens the sperm or something. Made no sense, but I cannot force her. That's rape. If she was cheating, like some say, she'd be pregnant already. She's not shaved her vaginal area in months. It looks like a forest. She's not cheating.

If you can tell me what flags I am missing, and what I can do to try and repair this marriage, I would be grateful.

As for frusdil, she's the first to ever even suggest that there was something else going on for why I was unable to have sex for those few months. Even the therapists do not think that.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She says she has no sex drive.





MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Her menstrual cycle can be a day to a few days late at times. I think about six times or so this past year.


If she's normally regular and this is a relatively new change since her mid-30's, she may be experiencing perimenopause or early menopause. Her lack of sex drive and emotional upset could be a combination of life and hormones making coping with life that much more difficult.

Not to mention, when we know our fertile years are coming to an end, we females tend to have some feelings about that. I could imagine it would be very difficult to face the natural waning of fertility as a woman who wanted a child and never had one.


----------



## MattMatt

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Were you able to work things out?


Yeah. Things are good. As for 'the no sec thing? Well I handle that myself. 

And for anyone who says: "No way would I accept that!" all I can say is that bus a very limited and limiting way of looking at marriage.

If you want something to have sex with 24/7 you need a sex doll not a human compaa real human partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> That is what I do not understand. If she had been so baby crazy, she'd be like me and want to have sex all the time. She's NEVER, been sex crazy. Once a week, maybe twice, if I am lucky. Once on the day of ovulation, even though drs suggest otherwise. Her claim was more sex weakens the sperm or something.


Some women who wanted to conceive and couldn't reject sexuality because they associate sex with the pain and disappointment of the failure to conceive.

I hesitate to mention it, but.. Your wife was newly divorced and her biological clock was ticking. Is it possible that she settled for you in order to remarry and have a baby? If she wasn't really into you and married you primarily to have a mate and start a family, that would also explain her lack of desire for you now.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> You can want something very much, and still be afraid.
> 
> If she's worried about the effect having a child will have at her age, or she's afraid of finding out for sure that she can't have one, she might avoid sex. And depression is a serious libido killer (would also explain her lack of motivation and not doing chores). Find her a good therapist that she's comfortable with before you make any major decisions.


I will start again to look for another therapist. Again, never did anything to hurt her nor delay anything in her life. When I was going through my medical issues, I did say she she leave so I do not burden her with my issues. She said, I am with you through thick and thin. Granted, years later, she did say she didn't realize it would prevent her from having a kid. I responded stating it was less than a year, around 8 months, and was ready willing and able. I also offered the alternative treatments. Her response was you do not have to do them, I do. Then started going off on me again about ruining her dream. She knew about my medical issues from the get go. Nothing was hidden. Not sure what else I could had done to inform her of the situation. We all know medical treatments and surgery are/were not that far off.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> You know using your wife as an example is wrong. She actually told you she was going to have an affair and expected you to be ok with it.
> 
> If depression is the problem and she is so bad she doesn't care who her husband f*cks, she needs to be admitted before she hurts herself.


Now you are scaring me. What do you mean, hurt's herself?


----------



## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. Things are good. As for 'the no sec thing? Well I handle that myself.
> 
> And for anyone who says: "No way would I accept that!" all I can say is that bus a very limited and limiting way of looking at marriage.
> 
> If you want something to have sex with 24/7 you need a sex doll not a human compaa real human partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your wife cheated and now she's cut you off? I sure don't like the sound of that!


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> If she's normally regular and this is a relatively new change since her mid-30's, she may be experiencing perimenopause or early menopause. Her lack of sex drive and emotional upset could be a combination of life and hormones making coping with life that much more difficult.
> 
> Not to mention, when we know our fertile years are coming to an end, we females tend to have some feelings about that. I could imagine it would be very difficult to face the natural waning of fertility as a woman who wanted a child and never had one.


I understand, but it's not like I have not tried to get her and us back on the same path. I offered to do whatever it takes. I am told, there is nothing you can do. I just do not know what else to say. I see she's depressed, and she's either a, doesn't care. B, waiting for the dr to come back from mat. leave. C, doesn't want help.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MattMatt said:


> Yeah. Things are good. As for 'the no sec thing? Well I handle that myself.
> 
> And for anyone who says: "No way would I accept that!" all I can say is that bus a very limited and limiting way of looking at marriage.
> 
> If you want something to have sex with 24/7 you need a sex doll not a human compaa real human partner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Was only looking for once or twice a week. Not 24/7.


----------



## OpenWindows

How long until her doctor comes back?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> Some women who wanted to conceive and couldn't reject sexuality because they associate sex with the pain and disappointment of the failure to conceive.
> 
> I hesitate to mention it, but.. Your wife was newly divorced and her biological clock was ticking. Is it possible that she settled for you in order to remarry and have a baby? If she wasn't really into you and married you primarily to have a mate and start a family, that would also explain her lack of desire for you now.


You are not the first to say this. However, while we were dating and into the first year or so of marriage, she was an amazing partner. It's only the last half that she's changed. She said she still deeply loves me. I asked if she wanted a divorce since she's not happy with the marriage. She said no. In a separate communication, she often said who else would want a 40 + year old? I said she's crazy. She attractive, smart, a great personality. If you are staying just because of that, please don't. She said I misunderstood. Not sure how I could misunderstand that.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> How long until her doctor comes back?


About a month to six weeks.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I understand, but it's not like I have not tried to get her and us back on the same path. I offered to do whatever it takes. I am told, there is nothing you can do. I just do not know what else to say. I see she's depressed, and she's either a, doesn't care. B, waiting for the dr to come back from mat. leave. C, doesn't want help.


This is where you support her by forcing the issue. She needs to get back in therapy. She needs to see a dr about possible physical causes. If she won't do the referrals and appointment setting, you do it for her. Let her know in advance, but don't take no for an answer. Tell her flat out that she needs help, she owes it to you, herself, and the marriage to get help, and that you'll set it up for her if she can't/won't.


----------



## AVR1962

She is overwhelmed emotionally by not being able to get pregnant and that itself can cause so many issues. Women are emotional creature, I am one as well, and when our emotions get the best of us they really get the best of us!!!! Your wife needs LOTS of support at this time. It sounds like she really wants to be a mom, really wants that family she had been dreaming of. Sometimes these women need to relax so e can become pg. Has she had tests done to make sure there is nothing holding her back from becoming pg?


----------



## OpenWindows

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> About a month to six weeks.


Maybe you could convince her to work with you, to look around for another doctor. If you don't find one she likes, you know when this one will be back. That way you have a plan and a clear timeline for getting her some help. It sounds like she's kind of stuck in this, and needs you to help her take the first steps out.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> This is where you support her by forcing the issue. She needs to get back in therapy. She needs to see a dr about possible physical causes. If she won't do the referrals and appointment setting, you do it for her. Let her know in advance, but don't take no for an answer. Tell her flat out that she needs help, she owes it to you, herself, and the marriage to get help, and that you'll set it up for her if she can't/won't.


I can set it up, but there is no way to force her to go.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> When my wife decided it was time to get pregnant. It was sex all the time. It took two or three months and she wore ME out. When it was time for the second one, it was hit or miss. She went to the doctor, had tests etc. , nothing. By the time she told six years later she was pregnant, my first thought was that it couldn't be mine.
> 
> I don't know what's up, but she's either bull sh!ting herself or you about wanting to have a child.


I would think the same. For a woman so crazy about getting pregnant, it's like pushing against a mountain for the last 1.5 years or so. Now, she said again, we can try to have sex, but I must wear a condom. I just do not understand.


----------



## Chaparral

By the way, the most common affairs are work affairs. They can be nearly impossible to catch. Only twenty percent of affairs are caught.

Look at Noc's thread. His wife has been in a fifteen year work affair.

At the very least I would use a couple of VARs to verify that she is telling the truth. Does she have close female friends or family?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

AVR1962 said:


> She is overwhelmed emotionally by not being able to get pregnant and that itself can cause so many issues. Women are emotional creature, I am one as well, and when our emotions get the best of us they really get the best of us!!!! Your wife needs LOTS of support at this time. It sounds like she really wants to be a mom, really wants that family she had been dreaming of. Sometimes these women need to relax so e can become pg. Has she had tests done to make sure there is nothing holding her back from becoming pg?


She refuses to have any tests on her eggs or fertility because she's afraid of the results. She said, if it comes back that I cannot have a child, I do not think I could handle that. My life would be just over. I've accomplished nothing, and it's your fault.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe you could convince her to work with you, to look around for another doctor. If you don't find one she likes, you know when this one will be back. That way you have a plan and a clear timeline for getting her some help. It sounds like she's kind of stuck in this, and needs you to help her take the first steps out.


I will look up another doctor and see if she will go. I have a feeling it will be a fight and a half.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> By the way, the most common affairs are work affairs. They can be nearly impossible to catch. Only twenty percent of affairs are caught.
> 
> Look at Noc's thread. His wife has been in a fifteen year work affair.
> 
> At the very least I would use a couple of VARs to verify that she is telling the truth. Does she have close female friends or family?


Not in her field. It would be near impossible. She works in infectious diseases. She deals with MRSA, HIV, STAPH, they had one of those Ebola people last year. All that crazy lethal stuff. 

She's close with her Mom, that is about it. She has work friends, but sees them every now and again. She has some other friends where she grew up, but they are also all childless and she doesn't see them very often. She had a sibling, but she died about 15 years ago.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I would think the same. For a woman so crazy about getting pregnant, it's like pushing against a mountain for the last 1.5 years or so. Now, she said again, we can try to have sex, but I must wear a condom. I just do not understand.


And you asked her why she no longer wanted to get pregnant?

I would have also asked her if she was trying to keep me from getting an std. This also reeks of being faithful to someone else that will not commit to her.


----------



## AVR1962

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She refuses to have any tests on her eggs or fertility because she's afraid of the results. She said, if it comes back that I cannot have a child, I do not think I could handle that. My life would be just over. I've accomplished nothing, and it's your fault.


It's a stage of denial that she fears facing.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> And you asked her why she no longer wanted to get pregnant?
> 
> I would have also asked her if she was trying to keep me from getting an std. This also reeks of being faithful to someone else that will not commit to her.


She also said I could just pull out. My choice. :|

Kind of defeats the possibility of becoming pregnant. No?


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She refuses to have any tests on her eggs or fertility because she's afraid of the results. She said, if it comes back that I cannot have a child, I do not think I could handle that. My life would be just over. I've accomplished nothing, and it's your fault.


But she wants you to wear a condom? Who is she saving it for then?

You need to read the MMSLP book below. You can download it at amazon and follow the MAP plan.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

AVR1962 said:


> It's a stage of denial that she fears facing.


I cannot force her to take any tests. But, we're stuck in limbo here and it's placing a lot of strain on the marriage.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Not in her field. It would be near impossible. She works in infectious diseases. She deals with MRSA, HIV, STAPH, they had one of those Ebola people last year. All that crazy lethal stuff.
> 
> She's close with her Mom, that is about it. She has work friends, but sees them every now and again. She has some other friends where she grew up, but they are also all childless and she doesn't see them very often. She had a sibling, but she died about 15 years ago.


She works in a hospital or with Doctors?

Why did she get divorced?


----------



## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> You are not the first to say this. However, while we were dating and into the first year or so of marriage, she was an amazing partner. It's only the last half that she's changed. She said she still deeply loves me. I asked if she wanted a divorce since she's not happy with the marriage. She said no. In a separate communication, she often said who else would want a 40 + year old? I said she's crazy. She attractive, smart, a great personality. If you are staying just because of that, please don't. She said I misunderstood. Not sure how I could misunderstand that.


The problem with her finding another partner is not that she is 40+. The problem is that if she really has no sex drive, then it is true that no normal man would want her. 

At least if she bothered to tell him that before marriage. Some women "forget" to mention that until after marriage.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> But she wants you to wear a condom? Who is she saving it for then?
> 
> You need to read the MMSLP book below. You can download it at amazon and follow the MAP plan.


Just picked up No More Mr Nice Guy. I will also get this book too.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> She works in a hospital or with Doctors?
> 
> Why did she get divorced?


Infectious Disease lab.

She said the ex was unstable and bi-polar. He didn't care much about her and spent her money and his money like it was nothing. Caused financial issues, emotional issues, etc.


----------



## OpenWindows

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will look up another doctor and see if she will go. I have a feeling it will be a fight and a half.


It might be a fight, but maybe she needs you to fight for her right now. 

Maybe you should just sit her down and tell her that you think she's seriously depressed and its affecting your marriage. Leave the baby and sex parts out of this discussion. Tell her that you want to help her, so she needs a therapist. See if she's at least willing to go.

If she gets some treatment for depression, a lot of the blame issues may take care of themselves. When she's less of an emotional mess, she won't feel the need to strike out as badly. And once she gets her head straight, she'll be better able to face the fertility issues, and may be more willing to have sex as well.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

technovelist said:


> The problem with her finding another partner is not that she is 40+. The problem is that if she really has no sex drive, then it is true that no normal man would want her.
> 
> At least if she bothered to tell him that before marriage. Some women "forget" to mention that until after marriage.


I guess I am not a normal man then.. Thanks for that tidbit. The lack of not just sex, but love/intimacy is killing me. I've thought of divorce more than once, but I still am in love as well as deeply love her. She was there in my time of need, it's only fair I do the same. I just hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, that she's depressed, I'd be afraid to consider anything, as I do not know what she'd do to herself (one of the posters put that in my head to consider).

During our dating era, we had sex one to two times a week. When we moved in together, it started to go down from there slowly to like once one the weekend. She blames the commute and that she cannot get a good nights sleep because she has nightmares. I will agree, she was much better when she was living in her own apt., compared to us living in one together. She moved farther away from her job, which causes some delay in commuting time. It's about 45 mins - 1 hr each way. Similar to mine. She's not used to it. She was well aware of this before she moved. I told her she should try it before moving in, however, she didn't listen. She'd adapt. She did, but most of the time she's home, she's either exhausted and watching TV or sleeping.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> It might be a fight, but maybe she needs you to fight for her right now.
> 
> Maybe you should just sit her down and tell her that you think she's seriously depressed and its affecting your marriage. Leave the baby and sex parts out of this discussion. Tell her that you want to help her, so she needs a therapist. See if she's at least willing to go.
> 
> If she gets some treatment for depression, a lot of the blame issues may take care of themselves. When she's less of an emotional mess, she won't feel the need to strike out as badly. And once she gets her head straight, she'll be better able to face the fertility issues, and may be more willing to have sex as well.


I've pulled back on the sex. I will not bring it up moving forward. It's like beating a dead horse anyway. I will research some names for her and pick out one for her to go to. I just want to make sure she will actually go. I will even cover the cost of the visit if they do not take the insurance.


----------



## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> Your wife cheated and now she's cut you off? I sure don't like the sound of that!


The cheating was a long time ago. The zero sex drive would have happened any way, given her health conditions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

So I found another a therapist very close to us and I wanted to setup a session for my wife. I brought it up to her this morning, and I was really surprised at the reaction. She was very cold and dismissive. Said I do not know, and we'll see. Then told me to leave her alone and give her privacy. 

I just do not know what to do or how to handle this. It's like she's giving up on everything. Or maybe she just thought I'd leave it up to her to find another therapist and never thought I'd take it over again. Please keep in mind, it was me who suggested a therapist in the first place, not her. I found the first two, now the third. For a woman who wants to make this work, it seems she's trying to do nothing at all. Unless, her endgame is for me to leave her. Therefore, she can tell herself and others he left me and the relationship, I did not leave him.


----------



## farsidejunky

Tell her no. Tell her that since she is unwilling to help herself, you are obligated as her husband to help her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## OpenWindows

Please don't give up until she's gotten through a decent number of sessions. Giving up on everything is exactly what depressed people do. She won't walk toward the light at the end of the tunnel, until she starts to believe it's really there.

If she gets on meds for a while, and she remains cold and dismissive, then you can proceed from there. But it's very possible that a lot of her problems come from a common source. She sounds a lot like my mother when she was stuck very deep in depression.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Certainly trying here. I can try to setup an appt with the dr, but the most drs usually want to speak to the potential patient first, not the spouse. I had to do this previously with one of the therapists. 

In addition, there is no guarantee she will even show up.

She's stated she will never take any meds. Ever. I have a tough time having her take Tylonolol, let alone something like an Rx.


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## OpenWindows

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She's stated she will never take any meds. Ever. I have a tough time having her take Tylonolol, let alone something like an Rx.


Well that explains why she's not willing to try any kind of fertility treatment!


----------



## tom67

I think you have done what you could.

I mean she doesn't want to put in any effort there is nothing else you can do.


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## MJJEAN

I don't blame her for refusing meds. Frankly, when I was going througha rough time, I took antidepressants and had serious physical and emotional side effects. The first med gave me terrible stomach and back pain as well as making me almost incapable of any feelings at all. The second one also made it almost impossible to feel anything and made me unable to orgasm. The third med made orgasm impossible and made me want to sleep a LOT. It was actually easier to cope with the problem than to cope with the problem AND the additonal problemd caused by the meds.

Don't push her toward meds, but encourage her...firmly, if necessary...to see a therapist.


----------



## OpenWindows

How does she feel about herbal supplements? St. John's Wort is supposed to help with depression sometimes. And, depending on your state and your beliefs, sometimes marijuana helps with that.


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Certainly trying here. I can try to setup an appt with the dr, but the most drs usually want to speak to the potential patient first, not the spouse. I had to do this previously with one of the therapists.
> 
> In addition, there is no guarantee she will even show up.
> 
> She's stated she will never take any meds. Ever. I have a tough time having her take Tylonolol, let alone something like an Rx.


You tell her you are going to get something to eat, then you drive her to the appointment.

Dude.

SHE NEEDS YOUR LEADERSHIP.

I know you feel like an @$$ when you tell her what to do. But really, man. You love this woman. So f***ing fight!

Look. If you don't get creative and get her in front of a therapist, your marriage will die on the vine. Not might; WILL.

If you do get creative, your marriage might still end. She may initially resent you. But at least your marriage has a chance.

Stop talking and start DOING.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

While it looks and seems I am doing all the fighting to keep the marriage alive, I just keep telling myself this is the depression talking, not the woman I married. I just do not, cannot understand, how a close, warm, caring and compassionate woman can just turn to a Ms. Hyde (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) personality. 

I still and trying to believe that if she has someone professional to talk to, it might help her realize her goals and dreams are still within grasp. If it is not with me, I will find it hard, but I will live with it. I just want to make sure she is stable and okay. That is my first priority. Her, then us. I figure, if and when she is okay, then we'd be okay. If not, it will end anyway. 

She was there for me at the lowest point in my life. When everyone (outside of fam) stopped talking to me, she stood by me through thick and thin. I just cannot believe this is happening. It's like a never ending nightmare coming to reality.


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## Chaparral

The most likely answer that fits your situation is an affair. I say that because what she says she wants and what she does totally contradicts each other.

I would say you have been friend zoned except she doesn't even treat you as a friend. She treats you as the enemy and cause of all her problems...............yet another sign of an affair.

Can you at least go to bestbuy and get a couple of VARs? You HAVE to put that possibility to rest.

How can a person that works in the medical field refuse medicine?

Do you have any of her older phones available to you?

It is imperative for you to know what you are dealing with. Trying to respect a person that is depressed or cheating to their detriment, is simply not protecting your family. Your number one job as a husband.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> I don't blame her for refusing meds. Frankly, when I was going througha rough time, I took antidepressants and had serious physical and emotional side effects. The first med gave me terrible stomach and back pain as well as making me almost incapable of any feelings at all. The second one also made it almost impossible to feel anything and made me unable to orgasm. The third med made orgasm impossible and made me want to sleep a LOT. It was actually easier to cope with the problem than to cope with the problem AND the additonal problemd caused by the meds.
> 
> Don't push her toward meds, but encourage her...firmly, if necessary...to see a therapist.


I've only been pushing for a therapist, nothing more. She was going to find one, but she hasn't done it. She said, she'd do it when she's ready, not when I tell her too. Again, it's like I fighting against a brick wall.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> How does she feel about herbal supplements? St. John's Wort is supposed to help with depression sometimes. And, depending on your state and your beliefs, sometimes marijuana helps with that.


She doesn't like pills period. She'd never go for the pot.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> While it looks and seems I am doing all the fighting to keep the marriage alive, I just keep telling myself this is the depression talking, not the woman I married. I just do not, cannot understand, how a close, warm, caring and compassionate woman can just turn to a Ms. Hyde (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) personality.
> 
> I still and trying to believe that if she has someone professional to talk to, it might help her realize her goals and dreams are still within grasp. If it is not with me, I will find it hard, but I will live with it. I just want to make sure she is stable and okay. That is my first priority. Her, then us. I figure, if and when she is okay, then we'd be okay. If not, it will end anyway.
> 
> She was there for me at the lowest point in my life. When everyone (outside of fam) stopped talking to me, she stood by me through thick and thin. I just cannot believe this is happening. It's like a never ending nightmare coming to reality.


But you are not there for her now. Your wallowing in self pity while the train flies off the tracks.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've only been pushing for a therapist, nothing more. She was going to find one, but she hasn't done it. She said, she'd do it when she's ready, not when I tell her too. Again, it's like I fighting against a brick wall.


Just another way to tell you to kiss her a$$.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> You tell her you are going to get something to eat, then you drive her to the appointment.
> 
> Dude.
> 
> SHE NEEDS YOUR LEADERSHIP.
> 
> I know you feel like an @$$ when you tell her what to do. But really, man. You love this woman. So f***ing fight!
> 
> Look. If you don't get creative and get her in front of a therapist, your marriage will die on the vine. Not might; WILL.
> 
> If you do get creative, your marriage might still end. She may initially resent you. But at least your marriage has a chance.
> 
> Stop talking and start DOING.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


She already resents me. This is clear. I am fighting and not sitting still. The woman is not stupid, she knows the deal. This woman cannot be outsmarted like that. She works 9 - 5 M-F. The appt., would need to be somewhere in that time frame, as most drs. do not have after hours. No fooling her on that front.


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> While it looks and seems I am doing all the fighting to keep the marriage alive, I just keep telling myself this is the depression talking, not the woman I married. I just do not, cannot understand, how a close, warm, caring and compassionate woman can just turn to a Ms. Hyde (Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde) personality.
> 
> I still and trying to believe that if she has someone professional to talk to, it might help her realize her goals and dreams are still within grasp. If it is not with me, I will find it hard, but I will live with it. I just want to make sure she is stable and okay. That is my first priority. Her, then us. I figure, if and when she is okay, then we'd be okay. If not, it will end anyway.
> 
> She was there for me at the lowest point in my life. When everyone (outside of fam) stopped talking to me, she stood by me through thick and thin. I just cannot believe this is happening. It's like a never ending nightmare coming to reality.


You keep telling yourself? 

Do you have to analyze this thing to death before you take action?

You can't understand how the switch flipped? So what. 

If you suspected your wife had cancer, and she was resisting seeing an oncologist, would you really need to know the type of cancer it was and how she became afflicted with it before you took her to visit him or her?

You have paralysis by analysis. Watch your marriage wither and die at your own peril.

The fact that she stood by you through thick and thin makes it even worse that you're not taking the bull by the horns here.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> The most likely answer that fits your situation is an affair. I say that because what she says she wants and what she does totally contradicts each other.
> 
> I would say you have been friend zoned except she doesn't even treat you as a friend. She treats you as the enemy and cause of all her problems...............yet another sign of an affair.
> 
> Can you at least go to bestbuy and get a couple of VARs? You HAVE to put that possibility to rest.
> 
> How can a person that works in the medical field refuse medicine?
> 
> Do you have any of her older phones available to you?
> 
> It is imperative for you to know what you are dealing with. Trying to respect a person that is depressed or cheating to their detriment, is simply not protecting your family. Your number one job as a husband.



She has the same iPhone 4s from four years ago. I checked her messages through the online billing system, nothing out of the ordinary. What is a VAR?


----------



## Chaparral

The biggest red flag of all is how many experienced posters here think there is a good chance someone else is involved. Their record is ridiculously accurate.

Check this thread out:http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> But you are not there for her now. Your wallowing in self pity while the train flies off the tracks.


How am I not there for her now?


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She already resents me. This is clear. I am fighting and not sitting still. The woman is not stupid, she knows the deal. This woman cannot be outsmarted like that. She works 9 - 5 M-F. The appt., would need to be somewhere in that time frame, as most drs. do not have after hours. No fooling her on that front.


Then let her go. If you can't lead her, then she needs more than you can provide. 

Or pull your head out of your @$$, stop making excuses, and figure out a way.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## 41362

Look, you need to get more involved and stop getting her input because for whatever reason she's checking out. Make an appointment with a therapist (or two) for both of you, tell her when they are, and then go...and if you end up going by yourself...so what? That may prove beneficial, too.

Do you know her PCP? Have you attended appointments with her? If so, get the PCP involved. I'm starting to wonder if she may really need a psych referral. Seriously, the chronic nightmares and depression give me pause. Is she suppressing something? Better yet, was she suppressing something... possibly in order to have a baby?

Please disregard the pharmaceutical naysayers. Are meds over prescribed? Hell yes...and, yeah, sometimes there are adverse reactions (those can usually be treated, too), but sometimes they are needed. 

Take over and lead this ship...or get off. She's not going to help herself


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> You keep telling yourself?
> 
> Do you have to analyze this thing to death before you take action?
> 
> You can't understand how the switch flipped? So what.
> 
> If you suspected your wife had cancer, and she was resisting seeing an oncologist, would you really need to know the type of cancer it was and how she became afflicted with it before you took her to visit him or her?
> 
> You have paralysis by analysis. Watch your marriage wither and die at your own peril.
> 
> The fact that she stood by you through thick and thin makes it even worse that you're not taking the bull by the horns here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Doing the best I can.


----------



## farsidejunky

Chaparral said:


> The biggest red flag of all is how many experienced posters here think there is a good chance someone else is involved. Their record is ridiculously accurate.
> 
> Check this thread out:http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html


For the record, I do not.

I know depression. My wife and I both have problems with it, her much more so than me.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

Voice activated recorder. One in her car and one in the home where she is likely to talk when you are not there. 

She may have a burner phone. She may know something you don't. She may be confiding in a friend or relative what her problem is.

Have you simply asked her why she no longer wants to get pregnant?

She knows she is depressed but refuses treatment? And she is in the medical field? That sounds like she thinks you are the problem and a doctor wont help. Does she normally avoid doctors?


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Doing the best I can.


No.

You are talking the best you can.

You are actually doing very little.

Do you struggle with taking action?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> How am I not there for her now?


Because your marriage and maybe she is circling the drain and neither of you is doing anything but going down with it.


----------



## 41362

farsidejunky said:


> For the record, I do not.
> 
> I know depression. My wife and I both have problems with it, her much more so than me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Depression is like following Alice down the rabbit hole. After a while you can't find your way out...and after that you don't care. I know that *****, too...somehow I found my way out, but not everybody can.


----------



## Chaparral

farsidejunky said:


> For the record, I do not.
> 
> I know depression. My wife and I both have problems with it, her much more so than me.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


So, you think its realistic for a depressed wife to tell a husband to go elsewhere for sex, i.e. find your self another woman? If its that bad I would be worried she might harm herself as I have already alluded to.

I have to assume depression is a possibility. I also have to assume, because of all the redflags, including depression, that an affair is likely. The thing is both have to be ruled out or confirmed to save this family. Watching her will do nothing.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

41362 said:


> Look, you need to get more involved and stop getting her input because for whatever reason she's checking out. Make an appointment with a therapist (or two) for both of you, tell her when they are, and then go...and if you end up going by yourself...so what? That may prove beneficial, too.
> 
> Do you know her PCP? Have you attended appointments with her? If so, get the PCP involved. I'm starting to wonder if she may really need a psych referral. Seriously, the chronic nightmares and depression give me pause. Is she suppressing something? Better yet, was she suppressing something... possibly in order to have a baby?
> 
> Please disregard the pharmaceutical naysayers. Are meds over prescribed? Hell yes...and, yeah, sometimes there are adverse reactions (those can usually be treated, too), but sometimes they are needed.
> 
> Take over and lead this ship...or get off. She's not going to help herself



She refuses to speak about this to her PCP. PCP will not talk to me due to privacy reasons.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She refuses to speak about this to her PCP. PCP will not talk to me due to privacy reasons.


Has she ever mentioned harming herself? Does she actually have good days with you?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> Voice activated recorder. One in her car and one in the home where she is likely to talk when you are not there.
> 
> She may have a burner phone. She may know something you don't. She may be confiding in a friend or relative what her problem is.
> 
> Have you simply asked her why she no longer wants to get pregnant?
> 
> She knows she is depressed but refuses treatment? And she is in the medical field? That sounds like she thinks you are the problem and a doctor wont help. Does she normally avoid doctors?


Yes, as she said we have problems in the relationship. However, she will not go into them. She just says, why, you are not a therapist. I will pick up the VARS just to confirm she's not cheating, which I know she's not. No, she doesn't avoid doctors. Goes to her annual PCP and OBGYN religiously. I am sure she thinks I am the problem. I do not doubt that. I've asked her point blank, do you want a divorce, no she says.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> No.
> 
> You are talking the best you can.
> 
> You are actually doing very little.
> 
> Do you struggle with taking action?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


No, not at all, I take action in life on a daily basis. I've already called the new therapist and awaiting a call back to setup an appointment. What else am I not doing that I should?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> Because your marriage and maybe she is circling the drain and neither of you is doing anything but going down with it.


She said she wanted to pick one out, so I gave her a couple of weeks to find one. She's not done it, so I've now done it.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> So, you think its realistic for a depressed wife to tell a husband to go elsewhere for sex, i.e. find your self another woman? If its that bad I would be worried she might harm herself as I have already alluded to.
> 
> I have to assume depression is a possibility. I also have to assume, because of all the redflags, including depression, that an affair is likely. The thing is both have to be ruled out or confirmed to save this family. Watching her will do nothing.


I will pick up the VARS to confirm no affair. I've called the therapist and will make an appt. However, the new therapist is going to want to speak to her first before meeting her. I just know it. I will have to hound my wife to call her, which in the end, can take days to do cause she doesn't have a minute at work to make a personal call.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> Has she ever mentioned harming herself? Does she actually have good days with you?


No, she's never mentioned harming herself. Yes, there are good days when she's smiling and happy. Usually when she's not at work, or have work the next day.


----------



## OpenWindows

Chaparral said:


> So, you think its realistic for a depressed wife to tell a husband to go elsewhere for sex, i.e. find your self another woman?


Yeah, that would be pretty normal for depression. It's not just being really sad... it's being so numb and empty that you just don't care anymore.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Yeah, that would be pretty normal for depression. It's not just being really sad... it's being so numb and empty that you just don't care anymore.


I would concur with that observation. It feels like she's just existing and doesn't really have a care in the world.


----------



## 41362

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She refuses to speak about this to her PCP. PCP will not talk to me due to privacy reasons.


You can speak to the PCP....and, yeah, it may be a one sided conversation (state and disclosures), but get them involved


----------



## 41362

OpenWindows said:


> Yeah, that would be pretty normal for depression. It's not just being really sad... it's being so numb and empty that you just don't care anymore.


Apathy on steroids.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will pick up the VARS to confirm no affair. I've called the therapist and will make an appt. However, the new therapist is going to want to speak to her first before meeting her. I just know it. I will have to hound my wife to call her, which in the end, can take days to do cause she doesn't have a minute at work to make a personal call.


She doesn't have a minute at work to make a call? How is that?

How stressful is her job? Has anything changed at work? Do you ever meet her for lunch? Do you take her out on dates? Do you romance her?


----------



## Chaparral

I thought the thing now was for a man and wife to sign forms for the care providers to be able to discuss things with the spouse. As far as I know, my wife and I have access to each other records.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> She doesn't have a minute at work to make a call? How is that?
> 
> How stressful is her job? Has anything changed at work? Do you ever meet her for lunch? Do you take her out on dates? Do you romance her?


Yes, her work life has been parabolic. New bosses and admin heads, packed case load on her schedule. She eats lunch at her desk as she doesn't have time to eat considering they cut her lunch break from 1 hr to 20 mins about a year ago. Yes, we go out to dinner, movies, etc. I've tried to setup a vacation, but she doesn't want to go. She says, she doesn't want to have to pay for any of it and would rather save money. I then say, I will pay for all of it, still no. She was just off last week. The whole week, she was sleeping and barely went anywhere.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> I thought the thing now was for a man and wife to sign forms for the care providers to be able to discuss things with the spouse. As far as I know, my wife and I have access to each other records.


She wouldn't do that. Her emergency contact is still her mom, not me. Whereas, mine is her.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yes, her work life has been parabolic. New bosses and admin heads, packed case load on her schedule. She eats lunch at her desk as she doesn't have time to eat considering they cut her lunch break from 1 hr to 20 mins about a year ago. Yes, we go out to dinner, movies, etc. I've tried to setup a vacation, but she doesn't want to go. She says, she doesn't want to have to pay for any of it and would rather save money. I then say, I will pay for all of it, still no. She was just off last week. The whole week, she was sleeping and barely went anywhere.


How do you know what she did on her vacation? Were you off too?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> How do you know what she did on her vacation? Were you off too?


Yes, I was off. Originally, we were supposed to go somewhere, so I took the time off. She decided against it, saying she's tired and wanted to stay home instead. That week, I was able to work from home, so I was home.


----------



## 41362

This will get worse, not better, the longer it goes on. You both had a whole week together, with very little to no work responsibilities, and you couldn't get any sort of movement towards the therapist or doc? That's a fail, man. You've got to sack up and take charge on this. She's not going to do a damn thing to help herself.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

41362 said:


> This will get worse, not better, the longer it goes on. You both had a whole week together, with very little to no work responsibilities, and you couldn't get any sort of movement towards the therapist or doc? That's a fail, man. You've got to sack up and take charge on this. She's not going to do a damn thing to help herself.


I was working from home, I'm in sales, so I still work, just from my home office. Nonetheless, I've called and left a message for another therapist. Just trying to prove that the chances of her having an affair are highly unlikely.


----------



## 41362

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I was working from home, I'm in sales, so I still work, just from my home office. Nonetheless, I've called and left a message for another therapist. Just trying to prove that the chances of her having an affair are highly unlikely.


So, with an entire work week (120 hours total) for you to try and get some traction for her...you made a phone call and left a message? That's not leading, MIJ...that's wishing.


----------



## happy as a clam

If she won't go see a doctor, won't have sex with you, and basically won't do anything to help herself or the situation, you're going to have some difficult decisions to make. Like how long are you willing to put up with this?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

41362 said:


> So, with an entire work week (120 hours total) for you to try and get some traction for her...you made a phone call and left a message? That's not leading, MIJ...that's wishing.



Also tried to talk and make some headway in our relationship. What else can I do? Maybe I am missing something. Please tell me. Open to feedback and options.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

happy as a clam said:


> If she won't go see a doctor, won't have sex with you, and basically won't do anything to help herself or the situation, you're going to have some difficult decisions to make. Like how long are you willing to put up with this?


I am hoping the therapist will help alleviate things next week. If this continues, and no progress is made, then as much I do not want to, divorce would need to be considered. I am hoping this decision does not have to be made.


----------



## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I guess I am not a normal man then.. Thanks for that tidbit. The lack of not just sex, but love/intimacy is killing me. I've thought of divorce more than once, but I still am in love as well as deeply love her. She was there in my time of need, it's only fair I do the same. I just hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Now, that she's depressed, I'd be afraid to consider anything, as I do not know what she'd do to herself (one of the posters put that in my head to consider).


Of course some men will stay with their wives even when there is no sex (and vice versa as well); we have several cases of that here.

But I can't imagine why a man would *get* married when he knew there was not going to be any sex. What is the point, other than possibly getting a green card or the like?


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I am hoping the therapist will help alleviate things next week. If this continues, and no progress is made, then as much I do not want to, divorce would need to be considered. I am hoping this decision does not have to be made.


OP, I know this is a very difficult situation for you. You and the one you love are hurting. Some of the posts seem harsh but TAM does have your best interest at heart. You have been presented with several theories and it is time for progress. Planning or action alone is not sufficient. Progress needs to be made and TAM is here to help. 

Focus now only on what YOU can control. YOU go see the therapist. Any qualified one at this point. Stop speculating that she/he won't see you first without wife. Unless you know that for sure, stop any speculation. If this is depression, the therapist will have seen this before and are the experts. If your wife is depressed, she will not be the first person to decline/resist seeking help. Even if wife does not go, the therapist will give YOU advice on what to do and develop a plan of action. 

Do same for PCP. Better if you both have same PCP, but still make appt and go. As another poster said, it may be one sided. You can talk and PCP can give advice, but PCP cannot give out any confidential medical information. You have to pursue all channels and not have pre-conceived expectation of outcome. Again, no speculation. Worse case is you pay the doctor fee and no progress. 

Both of the above you can control. Take action and get soonest appointments. To avoid over-stress and split attention on your part, treat this the same way as a doctor would in diagnosing a disease. Which may be the case. Start with the assumption that this is depression. Work on that and if that gets eliminated, then you can start the investigation for affair. 

If it is depression you owe it to your wife to try to help her. In the end this might not work but if you tried all avenues, that is only thing you can do. This does not mean you failed. You cannot FORCE her to get help.

Good luck


----------



## MRR

My take? She is just not that into you. Seriously. She is doing everything she can to make your life difficult. Is she clinicially depressed? Could be, but my guess is she resents you severely and...for that reason doesnt enjoy being around you.


----------



## MattMatt

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I could never do that. It's not in me. If it were to come to that, as hard as it would be, I'd just leave. There's no point in marriage if any spouse was going to do that. I am hoping to reverse that.


Just thank her -kindly- for the offer and say: "I'd rather go without, rather than have second best from some other woman."


----------



## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> Voice activated recorder. One in her car and one in the home where she is likely to talk when you are not there.
> 
> She may have a burner phone. She may know something you don't. She may be confiding in a friend or relative what her problem is.
> 
> Have you simply asked her why she no longer wants to get pregnant?
> 
> She knows she is depressed but refuses treatment? And she is in the medical field? That sounds like she thinks you are the problem and a doctor wont help. Does she normally avoid doctors?


Some people in the medical field just will not seek the help of fellow professionals. I do not know why. They just won't.


----------



## OpenWindows

MattMatt said:


> Some people in the medical field just will not seek the help of fellow professionals. I do not know why. They just won't.


I always thought it was because they know first-hand how human and imperfect they really are. It would be hard to look at doctors the same way, after you spend years seeing all their flaws, quirks, and mistakes in the workplace.


----------



## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> So, you think its realistic for a depressed wife to tell a husband to go elsewhere for sex, i.e. find your self another woman? If its that bad I would be worried she might harm herself as I have already alluded to.
> 
> I have to assume depression is a possibility. I also have to assume, because of all the redflags, including depression, that an affair is likely. The thing is both have to be ruled out or confirmed to save this family. Watching her will do nothing.


My wife said: "I feel guilty about not having sex with you. But I have zero interest in sex. So if you wanted to have sex with another woman, I wouldn't object. By the way, my friend Sarah has the opposite problem. Her boyfriend can't perform sexually at all, due to the medications he is on..."

I thought: "Oh, s**t! She is offering me the chance to have consequence free sex with our friend Sarah?"

Sarah is really very sexy and it took me an effort to turn my wife's idea down as gently as I could.

The next night my wife had one of her very rare nights when she was interested in making love and it happened three times in an hour.

Sadly her hips were in agony for several days later, which was the downside, of course.


----------



## Popcorn2015

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Blames me constantly for her not becoming pregnant at 38, 39, and now 40.


She's delusional. She had 20 years to get pregnant before she met you. Her fault she didn't.

A woman expecting to be able to get pregnant after 35 is like a man expecting to be able to still be able to get it up in his 70s. Sure, some can, some can't, but it's nothing to rely on.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Popcorn2015 said:


> MarriageInJeopardy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Blames me constantly for her not becoming pregnant at 38, 39, and now 40.
> 
> 
> 
> She's delusional. She had 20 years to get pregnant before she met you. Her fault she didn't.
> 
> A woman expecting to be able to get pregnant after 35 is like a man expecting to be able to still be able to get it up in his 70s. Sure, some can, some can't, but it's nothing to rely on.
Click to expand...

We had 5 kids starting at age 36. We couldn't prior to that and tried a variety of things. But medical help is essential. Oldest are 17 now


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

technovelist said:


> Of course some men will stay with their wives even when there is no sex (and vice versa as well); we have several cases of that here.
> 
> But I can't imagine why a man would *get* married when he knew there was not going to be any sex. What is the point, other than possibly getting a green card or the like?


Once to twice a week is not no sex. I thought that was pretty decent. during our dating and engagement years.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> OP, I know this is a very difficult situation for you. You and the one you love are hurting. Some of the posts seem harsh but TAM does have your best interest at heart. You have been presented with several theories and it is time for progress. Planning or action alone is not sufficient. Progress needs to be made and TAM is here to help.
> 
> Focus now only on what YOU can control. YOU go see the therapist. Any qualified one at this point. Stop speculating that she/he won't see you first without wife. Unless you know that for sure, stop any speculation. If this is depression, the therapist will have seen this before and are the experts. If your wife is depressed, she will not be the first person to decline/resist seeking help. Even if wife does not go, the therapist will give YOU advice on what to do and develop a plan of action.
> 
> Do same for PCP. Better if you both have same PCP, but still make appt and go. As another poster said, it may be one sided. You can talk and PCP can give advice, but PCP cannot give out any confidential medical information. You have to pursue all channels and not have pre-conceived expectation of outcome. Again, no speculation. Worse case is you pay the doctor fee and no progress.
> 
> Both of the above you can control. Take action and get soonest appointments. To avoid over-stress and split attention on your part, treat this the same way as a doctor would in diagnosing a disease. Which may be the case. Start with the assumption that this is depression. Work on that and if that gets eliminated, then you can start the investigation for affair.
> 
> If it is depression you owe it to your wife to try to help her. In the end this might not work but if you tried all avenues, that is only thing you can do. This does not mean you failed. You cannot FORCE her to get help.
> 
> Good luck


There is good news, I guess, to report. I made the appt. for her today for a visit after work on Tuesday. Surprisingly, she agreed to go with no fuss. Here's hoping we're on the start of her, then our, recovery. It's a long road, but, we all have to start some where. Just I am not sure how long I can afford to pay for the therapist. She's $300 a visit and doesn't take insurance.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MRR said:


> My take? She is just not that into you. Seriously. She is doing everything she can to make your life difficult. Is she clinicially depressed? Could be, but my guess is she resents you severely and...for that reason doesnt enjoy being around you.


Thanks. But, she does ask me several times during the week to watch TV and we go to the movies and dinner. Therefore, I am not sure that she doesn't enjoy being around me hold much water. I could be wrong though.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MattMatt said:


> My wife said: "I feel guilty about not having sex with you. But I have zero interest in sex. So if you wanted to have sex with another woman, I wouldn't object. ."


This, was, very strangely offered and I declined. I could not understand her reasoning; emotional or logical. Both, with that statement, were out of whack.


----------



## MattMatt

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> This, was, very strangely offered and I declined. I could not understand her reasoning; emotional or logical. Both, with that statement, were out of whack.


My wife is a very logical person. The logic is coupled with High Functioning Asperger's so makes for an interesting life.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good job on scheduling the appoitnment.

Expect some push back; some waffling.

Get her to that appointment come hell or high water.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MattMatt

Popcorn2015 said:


> She's delusional. She had 20 years to get pregnant before she met you. Her fault she didn't.
> 
> A woman expecting to be able to get pregnant after 35 is like a man expecting to be able to still be able to get it up in his 70s. Sure, some can, some can't, but it's nothing to rely on.


The problem is that the drive to breed is hormone-based and there is absolutely NO room for logic!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

MattMatt said:


> My wife is a very logical person. The logic is coupled with High Functioning Asperger's so makes for an interesting life.


It isn't at all logical to conclude you can cheat on your husband and he will stay married to you. It isn't logical to stay either. She sees sex with someone else as more important than her husband. Just like any other cheater.

Does she need hip replacement?


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She's $300 a visit and doesn't take insurance.


Does your or your wife's employer offer an EAP employee assistance program? Typically with that you can get a few sessions at no additional cost to you. You would have to use one of the therapists on the EAP's list.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Does your or your wife's employer offer an EAP employee assistance program? Typically with that you can get a few sessions at no additional cost to you. You would have to use one of the therapists on the EAP's list.


Unfortunately they do not. No out of pocket therapists. Another option would be to us this new one once a week until the other one is back from maternity leave, then switch back to her. Thus, at least she's seeing someone in the meantime to help decompress and figure things out.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> Good job on scheduling the appoitnment.
> 
> Expect some push back; some waffling.
> 
> Get her to that appointment come hell or high water.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I will remind her again on the day of the event. She'll go. She knows it for her benefit. She asked if I was coming, I said no. This is for you right now, and I will be happy to join once you and the therapist want me there.


----------



## farsidejunky

One other thing. You mentioned you were in sales. I, too, was in sales and recruiting for the better part of 13 years.

The biggest mistake I made during that time was thinking I could influence my wife the same way I did a prospect. I lost...every...single...time.

I realized that it was not about influence when it really mattered, but putting my foot down for what was right, even if it made her feel bad while doing something that was best for her.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## OpenWindows

OP, I can't help but notice how much time and energy you spend justifying why things just won't work. You immediately start composing your list of all the reasons you're guaranteed to fail, and that's not healthy.

Do you think sometimes you set yourself up for failure?


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## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Once to twice a week is not no sex. I thought that was pretty decent. during our dating and engagement years.


That sounds like a very low frequency during dating and engagement.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

technovelist said:


> That sounds like a very low frequency during dating and engagement.


Since we saw each other once during the week and the entire weekend, I thought it was okay. She didn't move in until we were married.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> OP, I can't help but notice how much time and energy you spend justifying why things just won't work. You immediately start composing your list of all the reasons you're guaranteed to fail, and that's not healthy.
> 
> Do you think sometimes you set yourself up for failure?


I am an analysis by trade for my profession. I always way the positives and negatives. I do not set myself up for failure. I always try my best to do things the best way I can.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will remind her again on the day of the event. She'll go. She knows it for her benefit. She asked if I was coming, I said no. This is for you right now, and I will be happy to join once you and the therapist want me there.


OP, Forgive me if I seem harsh, but this seems a passive response from you. It is great that you made the appointment but do not stop there. Treat this as a problem for BOTH of you. The “this is for you” says you think this is HER problem only. Your wife asked if you were coming. Restart that conversation with her and strongly offer that you prefer to go with her, that you and she are in this together, but you would not participate only if she says she STRONGLY does not want you there. Forget about what the therapist wants. You are paying her $300 per session and if you and your wife want to be together for the session, then that is your choice. 

You have many variations on this:

1)	Offer to drive her, and even stay in the waiting room. After the session, assuming you do not participate, go out to lunch or coffee shop just to talk. She is more likely to debrief you then than later at home. Do not force the conversation or interrogate her, but give her the opportunity to share with you. 

2)	Join for part of the session, at least for the introductory talk. Then if needed leave so that wife and therapist can talk in private. I have personally done this. More often than not, it is my wife that insists that I stay when I offer to step out. 

Read over several times what @farsidejunky and @OpenWindows just posted. Stop with the analysis, speculation and passivity. I used to be somewhat like you until my wife had serious medical issues. My wife would not say much to the doctors and nothing much got done. I started being active and go with her to all appointments. I made sure she got the best d*** care possible and that has worked for us. It can work for you. Good luck.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> One other thing. You mentioned you were in sales. I, too, was in sales and recruiting for the better part of 13 years.
> 
> The biggest mistake I made during that time was thinking I could influence my wife the same way I did a prospect. I lost...every...single...time.
> 
> I realized that it was not about influence when it really mattered, but putting my foot down for what was right, even if it made her feel bad while doing something that was best for her.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Well, we are in sales, but more we have to analyze the situation and then come up with solutions on how to rectify the issue the client is facing. In essence, we're selling ourselves and our services.

She's has a tough Irish/Greek personality. Since her life has gone to sh!t (her words), this strong personality, her first mentality, everyone aside from my parents are against me, has come out. While we were dating, it wasn't here. She claims it was always there, it just never needed to come out.

Putting my foot down just makes it worse. I've tried that before, it doesn't work. Her saying "I will do things when I want it, not when you tell me to do it", is a common response even though what I am saying is as true as the Sun coming up tomorrow. Then she would say, you are right, I should had listen to you. It goes around and around. Same game, different scenario.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Popcorn2015 said:


> She's delusional. She had 20 years to get pregnant before she met you. Her fault she didn't.
> 
> A woman expecting to be able to get pregnant after 35 is like a man expecting to be able to still be able to get it up in his 70s. Sure, some can, some can't, but it's nothing to rely on.


She wants to believe what she wants to believe. I just try not to take what she says personally.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> OP, Forgive me if I seem harsh, but this seems a passive response from you. It is great that you made the appointment but do not stop there. Treat this as a problem for BOTH of you. The “this is for you” says you think this is HER problem only. Your wife asked if you were coming. Restart that conversation with her and strongly offer that you prefer to go with her, that you and she are in this together, but you would not participate only if she says she STRONGLY does not want you there. Forget about what the therapist wants. You are paying her $300 per session and if you and your wife want to be together for the session, then that is your choice.
> 
> You have many variations on this:
> 
> 1)	Offer to drive her, and even stay in the waiting room. After the session, assuming you do not participate, go out to lunch or coffee shop just to talk. She is more likely to debrief you then than later at home. Do not force the conversation or interrogate her, but give her the opportunity to share with you.
> 
> 2)	Join for part of the session, at least for the introductory talk. Then if needed leave so that wife and therapist can talk in private. I have personally done this. More often than not, it is my wife that insists that I stay when I offer to step out.
> 
> Read over several times what @farsidejunky and @OpenWindows just posted. Stop with the analysis, speculation and passivity. I used to be somewhat like you until my wife had serious medical issues. My wife would not say much to the doctors and nothing much got done. I started being active and go with her to all appointments. I made sure she got the best d*** care possible and that has worked for us. It can work for you. Good luck.


I will join in after the first session or so. This is our problem, however, the issues are in her head. This has been made clear by her previous therapists. She doesn't really know what she wants, and that is the issue at hand. She is also affraid of the future (who isn't). As per the previous therapy, she had better results doing one on one, and then us joining in. I am not close to the therapists office from where I work. I am a good 1.5 hours away from the job site. I can do what I can do. In such short notice, this is what I can do.


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## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Well, we are in sales, but more we have to analyze the situation and then come up with solutions on how to rectify the issue the client is facing. In essence, we're selling ourselves and our services.
> 
> She's has a tough Irish/Greek personality. Since her life has gone to sh!t (her words), this strong personality, her first mentality, everyone aside from my parents are against me, has come out. While we were dating, it wasn't here. She claims it was always there, it just never needed to come out.
> 
> Putting my foot down just makes it worse. I've tried that before, it doesn't work. Her saying "I will do things when I want it, not when you tell me to do it", is a common response even though what I am saying is as true as the Sun coming up tomorrow. Then she would say, you are right, I should had listen to you. It goes around and around. Same game, different scenario.


Her will is stronger than yours.

Your first step is to acknowledge that, which it sounds like you already have.

Your second step is to either submit to that idea, and accept it as your situation continues to devolve. Or you can not accept it and take it one step farther than she is willing to go herself.

OP, don't take this the wrong way, but the quoted post reinforces what we are trying to tell you.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## manfromlamancha

Hello MarriageInJeopardy and sorry to hear of your problem.

I, for one, do not think she is having an affair (she could be - anything's possible, but I don't believe so from what you have said).

However, here is what I do think:


She is depressed and disappointed with the way her life has turned out. This is also due to a combination of decisions that she made getting here as well as her current situation. Blaming herself completely for this would kill her so she needs to apportion a good amount of the blame to others - mainly you!


She resents you. Because of the above and probably other things - maybe some valid and some fabricated in her mind.


She is afraid. Both of having a kid and not being able to cope and also of what the future brings for her. Of being with you and feeling unsupported and resentful.


She is stubborn. Resistant to any kind of treatment. In case it fails. In case it works and she realises you are not to blame. No win here.


All in all, I have seen a lot of this before and it takes time and patience to see her through this. Mostly (and unfortunately) she has to realise stuff for herself in some kind of "safe" (or what she perceives to be safe) environment. And while this is going on, you have to put up with hell. Believe me I have been there.

Take care my friend and stay strong and true.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> Her will is stronger than yours.
> 
> Your first step is to acknowledge that, which it sounds like you already have.
> 
> Your second step is to either submit to that idea, and accept it as your situation continues to devolve. Or you can not accept it and take it one step farther than she is willing to go herself.
> 
> OP, don't take this the wrong way, but the quoted post reinforces what we are trying to tell you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Not sure that her will is stronger than mine. We're either equal, or I am slightly more resilient. Many have asked why I put up with the issues. Many people say, you have yourself to worry about, now you have to worry about her too. Well yes, I do. That is marriage. She's my responsibility. I will try my best to do what is right for us and her. Giving up and giving in is usually not the right choice to make; at least until all other possible avenues have been explored. Many in the past had given up on me, I do not do what others have done to me in the past. I treat all how I would want to be treated in my time of need. That is what I am trying to do. Do I make mistakes, yes, of course. I am human. However, I only have good intentions.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

manfromlamancha said:


> Hello MarriageInJeopardy and sorry to hear of your problem.
> 
> I, for one, do not think she is having an affair (she could be - anything's possible, but I don't believe so from what you have said).
> 
> However, here is what I do think:
> 
> 
> She is depressed and disappointed with the way her life has turned out. This is also due to a combination of decisions that she made getting here as well as her current situation. Blaming herself completely for this would kill her so she needs to apportion a good amount of the blame to others - mainly you!
> 
> 
> She resents you. Because of the above and probably other things - maybe some valid and some fabricated in her mind.
> 
> 
> She is afraid. Both of having a kid and not being able to cope and also of what the future brings for her. Of being with you and feeling unsupported and resentful.
> 
> 
> She is stubborn. Resistant to any kind of treatment. In case it fails. In case it works and she realises you are not to blame. No win here.
> 
> 
> All in all, I have seen a lot of this before and it takes time and patience to see her through this. Mostly (and unfortunately) she has to realise stuff for herself in some kind of "safe" (or what she perceives to be safe) environment. And while this is going on, you have to put up with hell. Believe me I have been there.
> 
> Take care my friend and stay strong and true.


I agree on most of this. I feel she made a mistake with the first marriage, and was going to right it with the first. Unfortunately, life got in the way and derailed it a bit. She blames me for a lot, however, I think deep down she knows it isn't true. I try to avoid the noise and tell myself that the depression is speaking, not her heart and mind. I hope that the therapist will help her with the issues in her head, and then we can work on each other. She also has a problem with trust. Even though I never gave her a reason not to trust me, she still doesn't 100% trust me. She will not tell me why, but she says it's just how she is. Hopefully, we can work through this as well. She is incredibly stubborn, and it seems to get worse as she gets older. I hope this improves over time. 

I recall hearing on two occasions in the last month or two when she was talking to her mom on the telephone that she was happy to get home, but home is not a safe place for her either. In another case she said to her mom that I was in one of my moods again, but doesn't tell her mom about the reasoning. It was about intimacy and the continued rejection from her. It wasn't a mood, I just walked away saying I do not understand why we're married if we're never intimate. I do not think I am asking for anything irregular. She agreed and then I left the room. She said, I am sorry you are angry, I said, I am not angry, just upset I cannot be intimate with my wife as I walked away. Ever since, I've just stopped bring up intimacy. However, there is only so long we will last with no intimacy.

It's just very hard to deal with her at times. She is under tremendous stress at work (some concocted in her head), and I hear it when she gets home. She asks my opinion, and then if she doesn't like my response, then I am criticizing her and the situation. It's a lose / lose situation at times. If I do not listen, then I am avoiding her. If I do listen, and she asks my opinion and feedback, she gets upset if she doesn't like what I have to say. It's just very trying at times.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She is under tremendous stress at work (some concocted in her head), and I hear it when she gets home. She asks my opinion, and then if she doesn't like my response, then I am criticizing her and the situation. It's a lose / lose situation at times. If I do not listen, then I am avoiding her. If I do listen, and she asks my opinion and feedback, she gets upset if she doesn't like what I have to say. It's just very trying at times.


As an analytical person myself I can really relate to this. My wife would tell me about work - I would hear but not "listen". I would offer advice and that was worst outcome. *You know* what your wife wants. She wants you to validate what she is saying and feeling. When you offer your opinion, she is expecting that it d*** better match with what she is feeling and not be a typical man's fix-it solution. Yes, it is very trying for you. But her purpose for talking to you is for her to feel better. Yes, you are probably tired of hearing it but she needs to vent. When she asks you for your opinion she is asking/needing you to agree with her and validate her. 

What are her stresses at work? Too much work or stresses in dealing with people?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> As an analytical person myself I can really relate to this. My wife would tell me about work - I would hear but not "listen". I would offer advice and that was worst outcome. *You know* what your wife wants. She wants you to validate what she is saying and feeling. When you offer your opinion, she is expecting that it d*** better match with what she is feeling and not be a typical man's fix-it solution. Yes, it is very trying for you. But her purpose for talking to you is for her to feel better. Yes, you are probably tired of hearing it but she needs to vent. When she asks you for your opinion she is asking/needing you to agree with her and validate her.
> 
> What are her stresses at work? Too much work or stresses in dealing with people?


Very big case load with a lot of issues with the change of supervisors and head doctors contracting each other. While I agree with her on most of the items, some of them are just her mind playing tricks on her. Whereas others are against her, when they are not. A lot of he said she said. As the person going through it, it is hard to look at it objectively, thus, when you ask another person (such like your spouse), it can give a different perspective on things Low and behold, she comes and tells me I was right and she was thinking illogically. She tells me, sometimes, that I have helped her with the work stress and working things out in her head. Other times, she gets argumentative on my position, but then, after a few days, said I was correct and she was in error. She was always sure of herself up until the work headaches. After that, she became insecure and aloft. Even her colleagues she tells me are noticing it. Myself, her Mom and friends have been seen this for months. She often says the stress is from home life, but it's really from work life. Her work life stress is bleeding in and taking over her personal life. I think she starts to see it, but not 100%. She is in an angry mood from work and the commute, I am home, and she starts picking on me. It turns into an argument about nothing, mostly her attitude and the way she's treating me. I then leave to decompress. Again, I try and tell myself it's her work life stress and depression, but I can only take so much. It's rare she asks about my day. It's always her day, her stress. When she's in a good mood, she'd ask how my day went. It's a very one sided relationship, however, she doesn't see it. It really wasn't like this since about a year into marriage. 

I think her living on her own, in her own apt, and living her own life she misses. She's said several times, she doesn't always feel like she's marriage material. I just say we're going through a rough patch, and life has thrown us a few curve balls. She says, she's made too many concessions in this marriage, I said what concessions? Moving in with me was one. Delaying baby was the other. I said, I suggested for you to try the commute for a few months before deciding to move in. You said not necessary, you'd adapt. As for the baby, I've been running after you like a hound dog for nearly 2 years. You just are harping on the 8 months we didn't try because of the death and my hospital admissions. There is nothing I could had done with those issues. I didn't cause them, and I had no control. I offered you on both occasions an option to leave if affected your life too much or to freeze your eggs. You declined both. I do not know what you want me to do with that situation. She just says whatever and goes back to watching TV. It sometimes feel I am the scapegoat for her life's negative actions.


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## TheTruthHurts

Then stop being passive and call bull****. Get angry and let her see your anger. Ultimately most women lose respect for men they can yell at and get away with - even if it pisses them off at the time to get called out.

I did not say argue. I would not argue but I would let out a bit of anger and rage in her direction if she did that to me. She needs to see you are strong enough to carry the two of you. If she turned her back on me you bet I would unleash a bit "Don't you DARE turn your back on me and try to dump your issues on me! I've done this and that but dam it I'm not a punching bag and I won't put up with that kind of passive aggressive sh1t from you anymore!"

Man up and call her BS


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## TheTruthHurts

And I wound most definitely call her out on the no sex at this point and I would use appropriate language to convey my point. "Any man who isn't allowed to f]ck his wife because she feels a right to lock down her vagina is a man who is on his way out the door to someone who understands what it means to be a woman and a wife. I'll put up with some chit because of your issues but you're pushing me too far." And I'd walk away and let her think about it. And the next time I saw her I'd ask "so when's the next time you planning on f]icking me?" And I wouldn't engage in any other problem solving or help with any other issues until she answered.

The language - a bit raw - conveys your masculinity and at the end of the day - most women actually want that but slightly covered up for them. It's important to express yourself as a man sometimes.


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## TheTruthHurts

You've expressed to us this could end the marriage. I made my case as a way to convey that so she knows it and doesn't argue with it. She needs to be jolted out of this pity party a bit before you're emotionally gone


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Then stop being passive and call bull****. Get angry and let her see your anger. Ultimately most women lose respect for men they can yell at and get away with - even if it pisses them off at the time to get called out.
> 
> I did not say argue. I would not argue but I would let out a bit of anger and rage in her direction if she did that to me. She needs to see you are strong enough to carry the two of you. If she turned her back on me you bet I would unleash a bit "Don't you DARE turn your back on me and try to dump your issues on me! I've done this and that but dam it I'm not a punching bag and I won't put up with that kind of passive aggressive sh1t from you anymore!"
> 
> Man up and call her BS


This has been said countless times before. She's good for a little bit, then back to the attitude. Her new saying is if you want me to leave, just tell me.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> And I wound most definitely call her out on the no sex at this point and I would use appropriate language to convey my point. "Any man who isn't allowed to f]ck his wife because she feels a right to lock down her vagina is a man who is on his way out the door to someone who understands what it means to be a woman and a wife. I'll put up with some chit because of your issues but you're pushing me too far." And I'd walk away and let her think about it. And the next time I saw her I'd ask "so when's the next time you planning on f]icking me?" And I wouldn't engage in any other problem solving or help with any other issues until she answered.
> 
> The language - a bit raw - conveys your masculinity and at the end of the day - most women actually want that but slightly covered up for them. It's important to express yourself as a man sometimes.


Her answer is she doesn't know and wishes she could. She feels bad about the situation, but doesn't know what to do. She also says she knows I am hanging on by a thread. I said I will not and cannot stay in a sexless marriage. She understands, but doesn't do anything about it. That is when she came up with the idea of giving me the option to have sex with another woman. Which, I found disgraceful and demeaning to myself and the relationship. 

I realize she has a lot of issues at work and is depressed. I am trying to support her, but it seems like it's always the wife's show. Whereas, we're only dealing with her issues, not OUR issues. She doesn't realize the lack of closeness and intimacy is causing the issues. So avoiding the sex all together is her solution. I am just trying to hang in here. I honestly do not want to leave, but I can actually see this happening. What is the point of being together and married with not intimacy? I understand she's depressed, and we're trying to work through that as well. But it is big uphill battle here. 

What makes it even worse is that our families are close. They talk and entertain all the time. This makes it even harder. It's a lot of pressure to bare on myself. I also sometimes second guess and do not know if I am overthinking thinks or not.


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## LongWalk

Your wife's depression could be her lover. She thinks about her unhappiness and will not allow you into her troubles. Telling you to go bang other women, which would have made your situation more complicated, was a wall to keep you out. She would have blamed you for being unfaithful had you taken her up on it.

Does your wife exercise at all?

Do you?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

LongWalk said:


> Your wife's depression could be her lover. She thinks about her unhappiness and will not allow you into her troubles. Telling you to go bang other women, which would have made your situation more complicated, was a wall to keep you out. She would have blamed you for being unfaithful had you taken her up on it.
> 
> Does your wife exercise at all?
> 
> Do you?


She used too, however, she now says she's too tired from work and the commute (45 mins on average) to exercise. Yes, I exercise daily. It's one of the the only things that have kept me sane. Yes, I've tried to get her to workout with me, no, she refuses.

I have no intention of ever being unfaithful. However, I will not stay in a sexless marriage.


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## john117

I'm sure you can find other people. It's not worth the hassle...

Dealing with depressed, bitter people in your 40s and beyond is not fun. I am there for a little bit longer... Thankfully.


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## TheTruthHurts

Do her parents know this is a sexless marriage? Idk before bailing you could consider exposing this - like is recommended in an affair. The idea is to cause intervention and judgement from people who matter in her life - since your words go nowhere.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

john117 said:


> I'm sure you can find other people. It's not worth the hassle...
> 
> Dealing with depressed, bitter people in your 40s and beyond is not fun. I am there for a little bit longer... Thankfully.


Took my vows serious, better or worse. However, these vows are now waning as well. I am just purely miserable in my relationship. I do not think I can last much longer.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Do her parents know this is a sexless marriage? Idk before bailing you could consider exposing this - like is recommended in an affair. The idea is to cause intervention and judgement from people who matter in her life - since your words go nowhere.



Nope. Wife just says to her mom he's in one of his angry moods again. However, she doesn't say why. The reason is or was rejection of intimacy and connecting as a husband and wife. 

For example, I got home today after we went out for dinner. I said I have to go and exercise now. She said now? I said yes. I need my exercise daily. Why? It helps with stress. Can you do anything else? I said, I can, but you refuse to be intimate with your husband. She then said again, then find someone on the side to get your jollies off. I do not know what I can say or do. I then said, listen, this is not healthy. She said, let's see what the therapist says. I said listen, why did you marry me? No answer. You are either not a good fit for marriage, or at least not a good fit for marriage with me. You always want to be alone and aside from dinner and tv never want to do anything together. You are just flat out mean and nasty to me, and I am at my point here. After nearly two years of this, I just cannot take it any more. You have no respect for me. No respect for our marriage, and zero respect for our relationship. I cannot do this any more. If something doesn't change soon, I cannot stay in this marriage. It's just too much of an emotional toll for me to bare. I am tired of hating to come home to place where my wife hates and resents me. I am sorry that you are unhappy with your life. I am sorry for what is happening at work. However, neither gives you the right to treat me like garbage. If things are not changing for the better soon, and we are actually working on this relationship, I will be leaving this relationship. I will do anything for you, however, I just cannot take the bashing any longer. I am human. I need love and affection just like anyone else. 

She then said I understand and I know. You are right. Things will change.

I do not think they will. Just in case, I am preparing myself to present her from divorce papers. I hope to G-d I do not have to, but I will. I feel if I stay, I will end up in a depression. 

I just do not know what happened. I thought I did everything right. I sit down every night, listen to her issues and calm her down. I take her to nice places. I treat her with respect. I go to her family events. I see her parents weekly. I just do not know what I did wrong. It will kill me to leave, but I just cannot stay in this relationship.


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## LongWalk

Read about the 180. 

If you have no children to consider, why drag it out?


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## Mnemesis

She's developed resentment for you. Having to be your rock while you put your family first... Your wife and her needs should always be priority (provided they aren't unrealistic).

To get back on track you need to become a leader (not authoritarian) in the relationship.

If she wants children and you don't provide for that need then she will end up very bitter and hate you.


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## MattMatt

Chaparral said:


> It isn't at all logical to conclude you can cheat on your husband and he will stay married to you. It isn't logical to stay either. She sees sex with someone else as more important than her husband. Just like any other cheater.
> 
> Does she need hip replacement?


Not yet, thankfully. That's about 5 to 10 years down the line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriageInJeopardy

LongWalk said:


> Read about the 180.
> 
> If you have no children to consider, why drag it out?


Looked for the 180, but there is no sticky. Threads talking about 180, but not actually what it is. Can you share a link?

Was truly hoping to fix the situation, but it seems like that may not be happening. We can see what the therapist says, but at 300 a pop, I cannot afford many visits.

I am considering divorce, but really do not want to do so.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Mnemesis said:


> She's developed resentment for you. Having to be your rock while you put your family first... Your wife and her needs should always be priority (provided they aren't unrealistic).
> 
> To get back on track you need to become a leader (not authoritarian) in the relationship.
> 
> If she wants children and you don't provide for that need then she will end up very bitter and hate you.


I partly agree and disagree. She was with me when everything transpired. She supported me with helping my mom through the tough times. There is no one else who could. What am I supposed to do, leave an elderly mom on her own without any help or compassion from her son? That's a no go. And anyone who supports a theory like that needs to rethink their priorities. A child does not abandon a parent in their time of need. As for my medical procedures. Well, I guess I could had put her first and just went into PT or just jump off a bridge due to the pain. Would that be a wise decision? I do not think so. She supported me there as well. I told her this can be several months, and you are welcomed to leave if this is too much or interferes with your life too much. She decided to stay. I cannot force her to go to a doctor. She keeps on telling me she'll go when she's ready. What am I supposed to do? Kidnap her to the fertility clinic? Come on. Your response is not realistic. Besides, we need to work on the marriage first. Every time we take one step forward, she takes two steps back. Her steps back are impeding her ability for a child, not helping. So her actions make little to no sense.


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## Tobyboy

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I agree on most of this. I feel she made a mistake with the first marriage, and was going to right it with the first. Unfortunately, life got in the way and derailed it a bit. She blames me for a lot, however, I think deep down she knows it isn't true. I try to avoid the noise and tell myself that the depression is speaking, not her heart and mind. I hope that the therapist will help her with the issues in her head, and then we can work on each other. She also has a problem with trust. Even though I never gave her a reason not to trust me, she still doesn't 100% trust me. She will not tell me why, but she says it's just how she is. Hopefully, we can work through this as well. She is incredibly stubborn, and it seems to get worse as she gets older. I hope this improves over time.
> 
> I recall hearing on two occasions in the last month or two when she was talking to her mom on the telephone that she was happy to get home, but home is not a safe place for her either. In another case she said to her mom that I was in one of my moods again, but doesn't tell her mom about the reasoning. It was about intimacy and the continued rejection from her. It wasn't a mood, I just walked away saying I do not understand why we're married if we're never intimate. I do not think I am asking for anything irregular. She agreed and then I left the room. She said, I am sorry you are angry, I said, I am not angry, just upset I cannot be intimate with my wife as I walked away. Ever since, I've just stopped bring up intimacy. However, there is only so long we will last with no intimacy.
> 
> It's just very hard to deal with her at times. She is under tremendous stress at work (some concocted in her head), and I hear it when she gets home. She asks my opinion, and then if she doesn't like my response, then I am criticizing her and the situation. It's a lose / lose situation at times. If I do not listen, then I am avoiding her. If I do listen, and she asks my opinion and feedback, she gets upset if she doesn't like what I have to say. It's just very trying at times.


My wife came to me one day and asked if I was alright if she quit her job because it was getting to stressful, management was to demanding, missing out on raising our young kids etc....
I agreed and she took a leave for a few weeks before making it final. 
Two days later I busted her calling her EA from our home phone line, which I had bugged with a VAR for 6 months!!! This was back in 2000, we didn't have cell phones at that time. Thing is, not once did she call her EA from our landline beforehand. The EA had been going on for a year!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Looked for the 180, but there is no sticky. Threads talking about 180, but not actually what it is. Can you share a link?


You can google "180 marriage rules". Here is one list. They normally are recommended for the betrayed spouse during an affair but you may benefit from most of this. 

The 180

1. Don’t pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Don’t point out “good points” in marriage.

4. Don’t follow her/him around the house.

5. Don’t encourage or initiate discussion about the future.

6. Don’t ask for help from the family members of your wayward partner.

7. Don’t ask for reassurances.

8. Don’t buy or give gifts.

9. Don’t schedule dates together.

10. Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!” Because if you really think about it, he/she is, at this particular moment, not very loveable.

11. Do more than act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!

12. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.

13. Don’t sit around waiting on your spouse – get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!

14. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!

15. If you’re in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.

16. Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that “they (the wayward partner)” are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life…without them!

17. Don’t be nasty, angry or even cold – Just pull yourself back. Don’t always be so available…for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you’re missing.

18. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around, not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self-assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.

19. All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!

20. Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control. YOURSELF!

21. Don’t be overly enthusiastic.

22. Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!

23. Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Hear what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!

24. Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.

25. Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.

26. Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.

27. Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.

28. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.

29. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It’s not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don’t care.

30. Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.

31. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It “ain’t over till it’s over!”

32. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.

33. When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don’t work out with the affair partner.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Tobyboy said:


> My wife came to me one day and asked if I was alright if she quit her job because it was getting to stressful, management was to demanding, missing out on raising our young kids etc....
> I agreed and she took a leave for a few weeks before making it final.
> Two days later I busted her calling her EA from our home phone line, which I had bugged with a VAR for 6 months!!! This was back in 2000, we didn't have cell phones at that time. Thing is, not once did she call her EA from our landline beforehand. The EA had been going on for a year!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've already setup the VARs. I do not think there will be anything on them aside from her talking to her mom. If there is, which I doubt (she barely has any energy to go to dinner, let alone have an affair), I will serve her with divorce papers immediately. I do not condone adultery. 

I am sorry to hear that you had to go through that. I would go nuts if I found that out. I'd probably do three things. One, prepare the no fault divorce papers and ask her to sign saying neither are happy and there staying in this relationship is not helping either one of us. Two, call a mover and take all her crap (she's in my apt bought before marriage, and she pays for nothing) and move everything to a storage facility. Then give her the keys to the unit. I would help with the expense of moving just to get her out of my life. Yes, she knows how I feel about adultery. I do not think she'd risk it. It's not worth it nor would it help with her needs in life. She'd also be pregnant already.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Thank you for posting the 180 rules blueinbr. In terms of not going out. We always go out to dinner a few nights a week (or I cook). On the weekends we go to a movie as well as spend time with family. Not sure what to do in those situations.

With VD coming up, we do not go out (she was actually going to take me out for a change)? What about a VD gift. None?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

So, I think I found one of the issues. I am an affectionate person, she isn't. She's very much like her father. Nothing wrong with that, however, it's not working for me. As I've already stated to her, if things doing change, I am out. I started yesterday stating I had a great day and hoped she had a great day too when she got home. She started to say no, I just said, anyway, my day was fantastic and told her why. We're going to take a break in listening to her work issues. I tried that before, it never was very productive on the relationship. Then left the room smiling and whistling. Surprisingly, today she was very nice in the morning to me, however, I just nodded and continue to walk out the door to work this morning. I decided for VD, I will get her a card, and just right Happy VD or something. Nothing else. If she says I got you something, you didn't get me anything. I'll just say sorry, I thought the card would be enough. It's about the effort and thought, not the actual material aspect of the gift. She will be in shock, as I usually get her nice gifts for VD (her favorite holiday), BD, WA and X-Mas. If she doesn't want to go out for VD, that is fine too. Heck if I am paying.

I am sure this will be a shock (hopefully a good shock) to her system that her husband (if that is what you want to call me) is nearly out the door. She is stressed and depressed about work. I am sorry, so am I. So are most people. She doesn't put our relationship first. 

I also gained access to her Facebook account. Nothing out of the ordinary in posts or messages. I do find it very upsetting that all of her recent pics (over the last two years) are of her family and friends. For X-mas and her birthday, she has all pics of her family posted, but none of me and her. And yes, we took pics of us. None of my family either. This was very hurtful, but I swallowed the hurt and just kept moving on.

Interestingly enough, when I was more distant to her over two + years ago (mostly due to pain and managing medical issues), she was much more affectionate and intimate with me. When I started to become closer and show interest into her, she became more distant. That is very weird. 

I do not like doing this, but I need to know where we are here and what we are doing. Reversing everything I do may have an effect here. Happy instead of said. Far and distant instead of close. Focusing on my and my life instead of caring about what's going around in her work life. We shall see.


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## AVR1962

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> So, I think I found one of the issues. I am an affectionate person, she isn't. She's very much like her father. Nothing wrong with that, however, it's not working for me. As I've already stated to her, if things doing change, I am out. I started yesterday stating I had a great day and hoped she had a great day too when she got home. She started to say no, I just said, anyway, my day was fantastic and told her why. We're going to take a break in listening to her work issues. I tried that before, it never was very productive on the relationship. Then left the room smiling and whistling. Surprisingly, today she was very nice in the morning to me, however, I just nodded and continue to walk out the door to work this morning. I decided for VD, I will get her a card, and just right Happy VD or something. Nothing else. If she says I got you something, you didn't get me anything. I'll just say sorry, I thought the card would be enough. It's about the effort and thought, not the actual material aspect of the gift. She will be in shock, as I usually get her nice gifts for VD (her favorite holiday), BD, WA and X-Mas. If she doesn't want to go out for VD, that is fine too. Heck if I am paying.
> 
> I am sure this will be a shock (hopefully a good shock) to her system that her husband (if that is what you want to call me) is nearly out the door. She is stressed and depressed about work. I am sorry, so am I. So are most people. She doesn't put our relationship first.
> 
> I also gained access to her Facebook account. Nothing out of the ordinary in posts or messages. I do find it very upsetting that all of her recent pics (over the last two years) are of her family and friends. For X-mas and her birthday, she has all pics of her family posted, but none of me and her. And yes, we took pics of us. None of my family either. This was very hurtful, but I swallowed the hurt and just kept moving on.
> 
> Interestingly enough, when I was more distant to her over two + years ago (mostly due to pain and managing medical issues), she was much more affectionate and intimate with me. When I started to become closer and show interest into her, she became more distant. That is very weird.
> 
> I do not like doing this, but I need to know where we are here and what we are doing. Reversing everything I do may have an effect here. Happy instead of said. Far and distant instead of close. Focusing on my and my life instead of caring about what's going around in her work life. We shall see.


Your wife sounds like my husband, he likes sex but there is no intimacy and without intimacy I have a hard time wanting to be with him. Everything that happens outside of bedroom doors effects what happens behind closed doors.


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## farsidejunky

"Wife, I looked at your facebook timeline last night and noticed that for the last two years the only photos on there are of you and your family; none of us or me. When I saw that, it hurt...a lot. But it also made sense. It reinforcd to me the feeling that I have not been in a mutually fulfilling relationship for that entire time."

No more showing her your anger. Anger is simply a mask for fear or hurt, and in this instance I would say it's a little of both, but mostly hurt. Show it to her.

Then shut up, and let her talk. If she has nothing to say, shrug your shoulders and walk away. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

AVR1962 said:


> Your wife sounds like my husband, he likes sex but there is no intimacy and without intimacy I have a hard time wanting to be with him. Everything that happens outside of bedroom doors effects what happens behind closed doors.


Sorry you have to go through this as well. How do you survive in the marriage?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> "Wife, I looked at your facebook timeline last night and noticed that for the last two years the only photos on there are of you and your family; none of us or me. When I saw that, it hurt...a lot. But it also made sense. It reinforcd to me the feeling that I have not been in a mutually fulfilling relationship for that entire time."
> 
> No more showing her your anger. Anger is simply a mask for fear or hurt, and in this instance I would say it's a little of both, but mostly hurt. Show it to her.
> 
> Then shut up, and let her talk. If she has nothing to say, shrug your shoulders and walk away.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Been there, done that a few weeks ago. She says she hasn't uploaded any pictures recently. Like I've said before, she's numb to the relationship. She's just existing in the relationship and in life.


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## Tobyboy

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've already setup the VARs. I do not think there will be anything on them aside from her talking to her mom. If there is, which I doubt (she barely has any energy to go to dinner, let alone have an affair), I will serve her with divorce papers immediately. I do not condone adultery.
> 
> *I am sorry to hear that you had to go through that. I would go nuts if I found that out.* I'd probably do three things. One, prepare the no fault divorce papers and ask her to sign saying neither are happy and there staying in this relationship is not helping either one of us. Two, call a mover and take all her crap (she's in my apt bought before marriage, and she pays for nothing) and move everything to a storage facility. Then give her the keys to the unit. I would help with the expense of moving just to get her out of my life. Yes, she knows how I feel about adultery. I do not think she'd risk it. It's not worth it nor would it help with her needs in life. She'd also be pregnant already.


Thanks. We're good now, but took a lot of work and time on both sides. 

Anyway, turned out that the reason my wife was so "stressed out" at work and her boss so "demanding" was because she wasn't doing her job!! She was so damn busy talking on the phone with her "friend" that her job performance started to decline. And before you ask, she worked in a hospital.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> What about a VD gift.


As an animal lover I hesitate to say this, but have you considered getting her (and you) a dog? Certainly a dog is not a replacement for a child she desires, but having something to love and care for that returns nothing but unconditional love back might be something that helps your wife.

Make sure though that you have a Plan B in case she does not want the dog. You would have to take care of it or find it a forever home.

Consider being a foster parent for a rescue or shelter dog. That would allow you to test out the situation. But make sure the dog is well cared for.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> As an animal lover I hesitate to say this, but have you considered getting her (and you) a dog? Certainly a dog is not a replacement for a child she desires, but having something to love and care for that returns nothing but unconditional love back might be something that helps your wife.
> 
> Make sure though that you have a Plan B in case she does not want the dog. You would have to take care of it or find it a forever home.
> 
> Consider being a foster parent for a rescue or shelter dog. That would allow you to test out the situation. But make sure the dog is well cared for.


We're both animal lovers as well. I had been considering that for awhile, however, since things are topsy tervey, I am hesitant to adopt a dog with her until I know where we're headed. I am hoping that we're able to heal our relationship in the coming weeks to months so we can move forward with life together. That's my goal. At that time, I'd be happy to adopt a dog and other things. I just need some stability and know she actually loves and cares about me. A little affection and intimacy would help too. I really do not think I am going overboard with my requests in this "relationship".


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## MarriageInJeopardy

So I listened to one of the recordings and it was an interesting conversation between my wife and her mom. I wish I placed the VAR in about two years ago. Wow. I never would had realized her Mom spoke the way she did. It's amazing that her Mom puts on one act in front of me, and then, when I am not there, completely different person. Basically, the wife and the mother are attacking me back and forth. Both attacking me on claiming that I delaying her on having a baby. Then, the wife gave me credit stating I "now" want to try for our first child. She kept out that I've been wanting to try for a kid for at least 2 years. Then, the wife said I gave her an ultimatum a couple of weeks ago that she needs to be a wife or it's not going to work. I didn't say that. Then, the mother attacked me stating that I should ask anything of the wife due to my medical problems due to the accident. Then the wife is wavering where to stay with me or not. All in all, she has a lot of disdain against me, and the mother is not far either. They were both attacking me nonstop for 30 + minutes. I am shocked. She says she doesn't want to go anywhere with me, the mom agrees. She can't travel with me. She doesn't want to move back in to the main bedroom because I will complain that she's kicking or hitting me. Or that she's snoring. Then she makes things up about things I do and are feeling. I said I didn't want to go out to dinner tonight, so she was upset she went herself. She tells her mom I was not feeling well. WTF? Is the woman delusional? When she walked in from work, I was in the other room working out.

I never heard the mother talk about me like that before. I am just shocked. I do not know what to do. Do I try and go to marriage counseling? Do I just tell her I feel your hatred towards me and I just do not think I can reverse your feelings, so we should go our separate ways? We have a family event next weekend. This is going to be very hard to go. Each week we go see our parents (parent for me). She hasn't come in a while to mine due to her busy work schedule, but we both go near weekly to hers. I'm going to stop doing that I think. What's the point since it appears the parents, or at least the mom, doesn't really like me. 

Does anyone think she married me for the children and that is all? Then, because of my medical issues / parental death, that threw things out of whack for her, so she see's no reason for our marriage? She said to her mom that she wants to be a better wife, but she just cannot. The mom then said you do what's best for you. Who knows how much longer he will be in the picture. I really do not know what she is saying about the delaying of the baby. Right after marriage, we started trying for a couple of months. Then I was in and out of the hospital, so that delayed things for about 8 months. There were a few times that she told me no because I had pain killers in my blood, so we didn't try. I then had to push her to try and we started again for a few months, then she stopped. Since then, I've literally begged her to start trying again since the beginning of last year, she would not have it. How come she doesn't share this information?

I just cannot believe this happened. I cannot believe I am facing divorce. I cannot believe this is how my wife and my mother-in-law view me. As a screwed up medically challenged person who has to prove to the wife that this marriage is worth saving, not both of us. Just me. The mother even said, who would take him? He has a major medical issue and his poor pain (sarcastically). Only you are compassionate enough to keep him. Whatever happens, the mom says, you'd be better off.

To say I am lost is an understatement. In real life, I have no one to talk to about this. I do not know which way to turn. I do not know if I am making a good decision or bad if I ask for a divorce. I was just shocked at what the mom said to me. She seems to always be on my said. She claims to "like" me, but wow. I just do not know. It seems things are over.

Things were going over in my head again, and she claimed that I have mental issues. Interestingly enough, she didn't tell me why she divorced her previous husband, however, she did say he was bi-polar and didn't take his meds. I however am not bi-polar or have any mental issues. Yes, I do have a little OCD, but that was it. She's brought this up before, and I did ask my neurologist. He did several scans and other tests. There was nothing abnormal or mental about me.

In addition, she claimed to her mom that I caused issues and problems to her. Her mom said that my wife told her that I said that she'd never find anyone else after me, I threatened a divorce, and other things. One, I never said divorce, I said if it isn't working, it isn't working. I want to work on why it is not working and try to fix it. If you want a divorce and if you are not happy, then it should be considered. I do not want you to be in an unhappy relationship or marriage. I said you are smart, attractive and have a great personality. You would NOT have issues finding another man or husband. She then retorted and said, your the last for me. Maybe marriage is just not for me. I said, let work on this. This is our third therapist. First one she didn't like. Second on is on mat. leave. Third one, we'll see how it progresses. So far, so good today. However, that was before I heard this conversation. If I didn't care, why would I go through all of this? 

Did she tell her mom that there's been no intimacy in nearly a year? No. Did she tell her mom why I asked her to move into the next room? No. It was because she was kicking and punching me hard in her sleep. I woke up in severe pain and bruises. It goes on an on. Am I perfect. Did I make mistakes. I am sure. But, I just cannot believe what I heard. On one end, I feel horrible that she feels this way. On the other end, I feel betrayed by her and her mom with the talks about me. She only gives one side of the story. Instead of siding with her, she should come down with no opinion. Similar to what my mom did. When I asked her thoughts. She was quite neutral and told me to work it out. While her mom did say she said the marriage may be able to be saved, and that the new therapist may help her. She also said, if it doesn't oh well. He caused these issues. It's his fault. I am just stunned. Notice, my wife never said well he did offer several times to try, but I declined because he was in pain or he was on pain meds. I offered egg freezing, anything under the sun. Then, now, she tells her mom that NOW, I want to try for a baby. I've been after her for nearly two years.. She doesn't mention that either. Yet, I am being dubbed the bad guy. I just don't get it. I honestly tried my best. I never stalled. I never put my needs ahead of hers or anyone else's unless I was in tremendous pain and had to go to the doc or ER. Which, I went myself. Never bothered her to go with me to the doc nor drive me. However, she was upset with that as well. It seems I cannot do anything right. 

She also said to work up the courage, but then said I want to make this marriage work. What does that mean? I asked her last week if you are so upset, and you resent me so much, do you want a divorce? She said no. So, what is the courage aspect?

Sorry for the long post. I am just so lost I just don't know how to comprehend this. It's very upsetting to be painted in this light to her mom and to see how she really feels about me.


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## farsidejunky

MIJ:

Did the VAR really tell you anything that your gut didn't already know?

Whatever you do, do not have children with this woman.

Appearances are that you are being kept around because you are the last hope for her to have children even though she does not love you. She blames you for the delay. What a nasty cycle of resentment.

I would 180, start separating finances if applicable, and file.

If during the 180 she asks about it, I would simply say:

"Wife, your actions tell me you do not love me. I will not remain married or have children with a woman who does not love me."

Then shut up and let her talk. If she has nothing, shrug and walk away. If she does, let her speak, then remind her that love is a verb.

While handy, many times a VAR will tell us things we don't want to hear.

The only thing worse than living alone is living with an @$$hole.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## LongWalk

Read Neuklas


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## MJJEAN

She is with you because she's reached the end or near end of her fertility and you are the only chance she has to reproduce. She very clearly has no love, respect, or loyalty for you. She'd rather simmer in her resentment than take responsibility for her choice not to have a child when it was more feasible.

At this point, you're a sad combination of sperm donor and scapegoat/doormat.

If it were me, I'd take the VAR to the family event, play it for all, and then explain that you're going to be moving on with your life as a single man without the pit viper you married and the pit viper that hatched her.

BTW, you can find someone else who will love and care for you despite your medical condition. My mother was disabled from birth, only her head and torso normal, along with other health issues. My dad loved and cared for her for 18 years until her death. She never, not once, went to the ER alone.

I have a bad heart and chronic back pain from scoliosis. It's bad enough to cause pain daily to varying degrees, but not bad enough to justify surgery. I don't take pain meds because the ones that don't dummy me out, don't work. The pain meds that do work make me a zombie. So, I cope. My DH knew this when we married and during the ceremony, he squeezed my hand when the JP said "in sickness and in health". 

I had the flu recently, couldn't keep my meds down. Between the vomiting, erratic heartbeat, and lack of meds in my system, DH was worried. He literally stayed up for 2 days straight watching over me during the worst of it.

My friend, S, has 9 children and a husband who has a degenerative spinal condition. Some days, she has to go into the bathroom and pull him out of the shower or off the commode because he becomes unable to move. They've been married for over a decade and she's never once complained. She's just happy he's able to do what he can when he can. 

Love is a verb. My dad showed my mom his love by caring for her and supporting her during their entire life together. My DH shows me daily and has for the last 16 years. S has been showing her H for nearly as long. What's your wife showed you? Hint: It's not love.


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## EVG39

Begin to implement the 180.
Do not tip your hand about the VAR yet. Keep listening you may learn a lot more.


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## Tobyboy

MJJEAN said:


> If it were me, I'd take the VAR to the family event, play it for all, and then explain that you're going to be moving on with your life as a single man without the pit viper you married and the pit viper that hatched her.


That would be tempting, but now is not the time. Keep Var'ing and you'll get to the real reason why your wife is demonizing you to her mom. There's a reason why she lying to her mom, and you. 

Remember, stay cool and don't bring your mil up. Do not ask about any phone calls and such. 

Funny, did she even mentioned her job stressed to her mom?

Think about that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

Tobyboy said:


> That would be tempting, but now is not the time. Keep Var'ing and you'll get to the real reason why your wife is demonizing you to her mom. There's a reason why she lying to her mom, and you.
> 
> Remember, stay cool and don't bring your mil up. Do not ask about any phone calls and such.
> 
> Funny, did she even mentioned her job stressed to her mom?
> 
> Think about that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares why? She doesn't love him, which she has clearly demonstrated by word and deed over time, and she also clearly feels no loyalty for him. She likes to tell lies and half truths. She likes to blame him for her choice not to have a child years ago and clearly resents the hell out of him.

The marriage is, and perhaps always was, a sham. At this point, looking for all of the "why's" is a futile waste of time similar to a dog chasing it's tail.

Why does she lie? Why is she blaming everyone but herself for her choice not to have children until the last minute? Why does she let her husband go to the ER alone and in pain? Why does she... 

Umm, maybe because she's simply a selfish, heartless, disloyal b*tch doing what selfish, heartless, disloyal b*tches do?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> MIJ:
> 
> Did the VAR really tell you anything that your gut didn't already know?
> 
> Whatever you do, do not have children with this woman.
> 
> Appearances are that you are being kept around because you are the last hope for her to have children even though she does not love you. She blames you for the delay. What a nasty cycle of resentment.
> 
> I would 180, start separating finances if applicable, and file.
> 
> If during the 180 she asks about it, I would simply say:
> 
> "Wife, your actions tell me you do not love me. I will not remain married or have children with a woman who does not love me."
> 
> Then shut up and let her talk. If she has nothing, shrug and walk away. If she does, let her speak, then remind her that love is a verb.
> 
> While handy, many times a VAR will tell us things we don't want to hear.
> 
> The only thing worse than living alone is living with an @$$hole.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yea, I had a feeling in my stomach that something wasn't right, but I didn't know to this extent. The 180 has already started. If I spend more than a minute a day around her, that's a lot. It would be tough this weekend as we have a blizzard coming in the area. Not good timing for me.

Finances are separate. Everything is in my name. We do not even have a joint checking account. Divorce shouldn't be that too financially trying since everything has been separate since the entire length of the marriage. The monies she gives me goes into a separate account and had never been co-mingled. Only removed it to pay for her med issues; when they arose. 

I do not mind living alone. I've done it for years before the wife. I just didn't want to live the rest of my life alone due to some indiscretion of a drunk driver (not me). I guess, my medical issues, major back issues, are even too cumbersome even for her.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> She is with you because she's reached the end or near end of her fertility and you are the only chance she has to reproduce. She very clearly has no love, respect, or loyalty for you. She'd rather simmer in her resentment than take responsibility for her choice not to have a child when it was more feasible.
> 
> At this point, you're a sad combination of sperm donor and scapegoat/doormat.
> 
> If it were me, I'd take the VAR to the family event, play it for all, and then explain that you're going to be moving on with your life as a single man without the pit viper you married and the pit viper that hatched her.
> 
> BTW, you can find someone else who will love and care for you despite your medical condition. My mother was disabled from birth, only her head and torso normal, along with other health issues. My dad loved and cared for her for 18 years until her death. She never, not once, went to the ER alone.
> 
> I have a bad heart and chronic back pain from scoliosis. It's bad enough to cause pain daily to varying degrees, but not bad enough to justify surgery. I don't take pain meds because the ones that don't dummy me out, don't work. The pain meds that do work make me a zombie. So, I cope. My DH knew this when we married and during the ceremony, he squeezed my hand when the JP said "in sickness and in health".
> 
> I had the flu recently, couldn't keep my meds down. Between the vomiting, erratic heartbeat, and lack of meds in my system, DH was worried. He literally stayed up for 2 days straight watching over me during the worst of it.
> 
> My friend, S, has 9 children and a husband who has a degenerative spinal condition. Some days, she has to go into the bathroom and pull him out of the shower or off the commode because he becomes unable to move. They've been married for over a decade and she's never once complained. She's just happy he's able to do what he can when he can.
> 
> Love is a verb. My dad showed my mom his love by caring for her and supporting her during their entire life together. My DH shows me daily and has for the last 16 years. S has been showing her H for nearly as long. What's your wife showed you? Hint: It's not love.


I feel that maybe my medical issues and the care I needed had a huge weight on her and the marriage. I am sure, on the days I was screaming out in excruciating pain or could not literally move didn't help things. While during our dating phase, she was upset that I never invited her to a doc visit or come with me to the ER. Since she works far from where I go, I just thought it would be best not to trouble her with my issues. I've done injections, Rx's, outpatient surgery on my back to try and correct the issue. The pain is now manageable, however, it's no walk in the park. What I am told, you think you have pain. People I see have cancer, MS (I have this too, but a mild form, so it doesn't count), etc. She says I do not know pain and discomfort. Yet, all the docs I see are amazed that I'm not hooked on pain killers and that I live daily with the pain. With great sorrow, if and when I go through surgery, no, I do not think she will be here. She'd say it's too much. The last therapist said my wife is kind of like my caregiver then. Surprisingly, she said no. He handles everything on his own. 

I envy your relationship with your husband and your parents relationship. I wish I had that relationship. I do and have done the same with my wife when she had the flu and had her issues flare up years ago. She will give me credit for that. I do believe that she cared for me at one point. I just feel that her work stress and her dreams of becoming a mom had overtaken her real self.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

EVG39 said:


> Begin to implement the 180.
> Do not tip your hand about the VAR yet. Keep listening you may learn a lot more.


I know. It's just hurts very much. I really cannot even look at her. I saw her coming down the hall this morning, I just turned around and went into the bathroom.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Tobyboy said:


> That would be tempting, but now is not the time. Keep Var'ing and you'll get to the real reason why your wife is demonizing you to her mom. There's a reason why she lying to her mom, and you.
> 
> Remember, stay cool and don't bring your mil up. Do not ask about any phone calls and such.
> 
> Funny, did she even mentioned her job stressed to her mom?
> 
> Think about that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will keep on with the VARs. However, it hurts just to listen to them. I feel like I've failed the relationship. I feel it is mostly my fault. 

She mentions bits and pieces to her mom about work. However, not the nitty gritty stuff. Interestingly enough, she didn't mention to her mom that she told me to find intimacy outside the relationship if I need it that bad. As you see, she tells the effect of my actions, granted, more aggressive than they actually are/were. Yet, she refuses to actually tell the cause to her mom. One would think her mom would asked, well, what caused this type of response from him? Nothing like that on the VARs. It's only been a couple of days, but I think she blames it automatically on my medical pain. Since I barely seen her this week, I do not know how she can say that.

What is she upset about now? Food. Yes, this whole ordeal was about dinner. I said I wasn't hungry when she got home, so she had to go out and get something herself. I was supposed to tell her in advance that I wasn't hungry. Apparently, me not telling her that I wasn't hungry makes me a big a$$h0le and a jerk. All I said was I am not really hungry tonight. That was it. One the phone to her mom, she said after a long day at work, she is what she needs. Yes, she has long days, I will give her that. However, I do not know why that is my fault. Just because she has a longer day than me means that I have to do somersaults for everything she needs?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> Who cares why? She doesn't love him, which she has clearly demonstrated by word and deed over time, and she also clearly feels no loyalty for him. She likes to tell lies and half truths. She likes to blame him for her choice not to have a child years ago and clearly resents the hell out of him.
> 
> The marriage is, and perhaps always was, a sham. At this point, looking for all of the "why's" is a futile waste of time similar to a dog chasing it's tail.
> 
> Why does she lie? Why is she blaming everyone but herself for her choice not to have children until the last minute? Why does she let her husband go to the ER alone and in pain? Why does she...
> 
> Umm, maybe because she's simply a selfish, heartless, disloyal b*tch doing what selfish, heartless, disloyal b*tches do?


Could she be lying to herself to make herself feel better? How can such a good woman turn into this? I mean she supported me through thick and thin during our dating years and through the death of my dad. The woman now is not the same woman. Another example. After New Years I got some cold. She didn't see me for three days. I was in my room the whole time. I couldn't move or I was sleeping. After day three, I had to text her to tell her that I am sick and need a few things. If you do not see your spouse in a few days when you are living in the same apt, isn't it reasonable to check on them to see if they need anything. She did open the door a few times, but nothing else. She was never like that. 

I do have some questions, maybe you or someone else can chime in on. If she cannot / will not have intercourse, how does she plan on getting pregnant? I offered IVF, she said no. Both these options for us are dead now, so it is mute. What is she working on the courage to do? Then, in another sentence, I really want this marriage to work. What am I missing?


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I feel that maybe my medical issues and the care I needed had a huge weight on her and the marriage.


MIJ, 

Do NOT EVER feel guilty about your medical issues. Most of us at one time in our life will have a major medical issue. My W has a chronic life threatening condition. We deal with it the best we can.

For your wife to say that you do not know pain and discomfort, that makes me sick. What a cold and heartless (and wrong) thing to say.

I hope you do not get snowbound with her this weekend. Stay strong.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ,
> 
> Do NOT EVER feel guilty about your medical issues. Most of us at one time in our life will have a major medical issue. My W has a chronic life threatening condition. We deal with it the best we can.
> 
> For your wife to say that you do not know pain and discomfort, that makes me sick. What a cold and heartless (and wrong) thing to say.
> 
> I hope you do not get snowbound with her this weekend. Stay strong.


I am sure things would be different if I didn't have them. They cause a lot of stress on any relationship. Others have said in passing, how bad can the pain really be, just not to my face. First the relationship leaves, then the friends, then everything else. Yes, I was holding on hard to this relationship because I feel my medical problems had placed additional stress on both of us. Please also note, these were disclosed to her during dating, so nothing was hidden. No, she wasn't right in what she said, but I guess in that industry, you get numb to the pain of others. Yet, wait a minute, she actually has sympathy for them. Who knows. 

I have a feeling we will have it. I'll just stay in my room. Then again, I will be criticized for that as well. There is no right move here for me. Any way I turn, I am either screwed or lost something.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Sorry. Keep up the var but you may not really need it. It's just a good idea to be thorough because this is important.

She changed and not for the better. Doesn't really matter how or why. You might think she can change back - maybe she can - but I think she will always blame you for being childless.

I'm a pretty direct guy. I loath liars, including those who lie by omission. So I personally would probably send an email to her parents saying 

"I'm really sorry that after two years of attempting to get W pregnant; attempts to get IVF so she can be a mom; attempts to get her eggs frozen to extend the window for her to get pregnant; attempts to get IC and MC to help her get the medical help necessary to get pregnant, that I've run out of options. I can't help her achieve her dreams of being a mom. She hasn't had sex with me in ______ (time period) and really for the past _____ before that we barely had sex. She moved out of our bedroom. I can't do it all alone and W is not interested in doing anything about this except resent me for her choices. If you can help her emotionally without being a negative influence in our marriage that would be good for her."

I believe in getting it out in the open. The ****roaches scurry away in the light, and manipulators find they are exposed and I don't have time for that sh1t.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry. Keep up the var but you may not really need it. It's just a good idea to be thorough because this is important.
> 
> She changed and not for the better. Doesn't really matter how or why. You might think she can change back - maybe she can - but I think she will always blame you for being childless.
> 
> I'm a pretty direct guy. I loath liars, including those who lie by omission. So I personally would probably send an email to her parents saying
> 
> "I'm really sorry that after two years of attempting to get W pregnant; attempts to get IVF so she can be a mom; attempts to get her eggs frozen to extend the window for her to get pregnant; attempts to get IC and MC to help her get the medical help necessary to get pregnant, that I've run out of options. I can't help her achieve her dreams of being a mom. She hasn't had sex with me in ______ (time period) and really for the past _____ before that we barely had sex. She moved out of our bedroom. I can't do it all alone and W is not interested in doing anything about this except resent me for her choices. If you can help her emotionally without being a negative influence in our marriage that would be good for her."
> 
> I believe in getting it out in the open. The ****roaches scurry away in the light, and manipulators find they are exposed and I don't have time for that sh1t.


I'm a pretty direct person too. However, I do not know if I could send that to her parents. It would cause a war. Plus, it's clear her parents are 100% on her side and it's my fault that I couldn't apparently force her to get pregnant at 38 no less. Guess it was supposed to be easy peasy. Not when a woman refuses to fornicate because we have problems in our relationship.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I agree with you which is why I would send it. I would not let those lies stand. Of course they will side with her but maybe a few facts will make it harder for them to continue the lie. They already made you the bad guy - you can't make that worse.

And regarding war - so what? It just says the truth and what you believe to be true. It doesn't even address how you feel about it. If the truth causes a war, what do you think the war is about? It's a war to bury the truth. Which side are you on? Why would you care if someone won't accept the truth and blames you for exposing it.

Don't let a fear of aggressive emotional bullying make you sweep the truth under the rug. This general fear "something bad will happen" is exactly how manipulators exert control.

The only question you should answer is do you want to be controlled?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I get your point, however, there is no reason to stir the pot. I am not a person who wants to humiliate her. It's not worth the effort. She'd just make something up or say I was lying (which even she admits in counseling that she's never found me in a lie. Reason being, I don't lie. It's not worth the risk). I value my relationships, I try not to put them in jeopardy. Obviously, in this case, she may not value the relationship as much as I.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I feel like we're not talking about the same relationship.

I'm suggesting you be honest and stand up for ourself to someone who resents you and isn't in love with you. Let her and her family know why your marriage sucks

I figure you're toast right now

If you stand up for yourself maybe she'll realize you are leaving and may actually fight to save your marriage. Either that or say meh who cares. Either of these seems better than the status quo.

I think your desire to avoid stirring the pot will only result in a continuation of the same with you allowing it to continue.

Just my personal preference to put it out there - others will say forget her and them


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

You have a point. No doubt. I just think it's wrong of me to interlude and send a letter like that to her parents. Again, how am I supposed to know this without releasing the VORs for her to listen?

I'd like to get some additional evidence through the VORs and file our taxes for this year first. I can see it could be a challenge filing taxes when we start the divorce before. 

Possibly bring these issues up in counseling. I am sure she's priming the counselor up to where I am the bad guy who stole her dream. I will then unload everything I posted here. I will then say, in front of the therapist that I think we should go our separate ways. I am not happy. Your are not happy, and She asked today I seem distant via text. Just replied, you wanted space and to be left alone, I am giving you what you wanted. Space and to be left alone.

Again, I am not a vindictive person. Yes, it seems she is.


----------



## Popcorn2015

OP, never reveal the VARs. Not now, not after all this is resolved, not ever.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Popcorn2015 said:


> OP, never reveal the VARs. Not now, not after all this is resolved, not ever.


Then how do I confront her with these delusions of hers either directly or with a therapist? The woman is not stupid. She'll know the only way for me to know of what she said to her mom is if I was listening in or something else.


----------



## Livvie

Why confront? Why not just be done?


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I feel that maybe my medical issues and the care I needed had a huge weight on her and the marriage.
> 
> 
> I envy your relationship with your husband and your parents relationship. I wish I had that relationship. I do and have done the same with my wife when she had the flu and had her issues flare up years ago. She will give me credit for that. I do believe that she cared for me at one point. I just feel that her work stress and her dreams of becoming a mom had overtaken her real self.


Medical issues can be a strain on any marriage, but what's telling is how the couple handles it. 

If you want that kind of relationship, you aren't getting it with your wife. She may give you credit where it's due, but she isn't reciprocating with loving *actions* in return. 

Maybe she thought you were good enough at a time where she felt she needed to find a fertile man, quick, so she faked it. Maybe she felt deeply for you years ago and just no longer does. Maybe you were so into her she liked the attention and limerence kept things going for a bit before it wore off for her. Maybe, maybe ,maybe. 

None of it matters. Deal with the here and now. In the here and now, she has clearly stated and shown that she does not love you. What more do you need to walk?





MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will keep on with the VARs. However, it hurts just to listen to them. I feel like I've failed the relationship. I feel it is mostly my fault.
> 
> She mentions bits and pieces to her mom about work. However, not the nitty gritty stuff. Interestingly enough, she didn't mention to her mom that she told me to find intimacy outside the relationship if I need it that bad. As you see, she tells the effect of my actions, granted, more aggressive than they actually are/were. Yet, she refuses to actually tell the cause to her mom. One would think her mom would asked, well, what caused this type of response from him? Nothing like that on the VARs. It's only been a couple of days, but I think she blames it automatically on my medical pain. Since I barely seen her this week, I do not know how she can say that.
> 
> What is she upset about now? Food. Yes, this whole ordeal was about dinner. I said I wasn't hungry when she got home, so she had to go out and get something herself. I was supposed to tell her in advance that I wasn't hungry. Apparently, me not telling her that I wasn't hungry makes me a big a$$h0le and a jerk. All I said was I am not really hungry tonight. That was it. One the phone to her mom, she said after a long day at work, she is what she needs. Yes, she has long days, I will give her that. However, I do not know why that is my fault. Just because she has a longer day than me means that I have to do somersaults for everything she needs?


Why keep on with the VARS? you know what you need to know between her actions and what you've already heard.

Who cares why she lies and omits to her mother? She probably lies and omits the same way to everybody.



MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Could she be lying to herself to make herself feel better? How can such a good woman turn into this? I mean she supported me through thick and thin during our dating years and through the death of my dad. The woman now is not the same woman. Another example. After New Years I got some cold. She didn't see me for three days. I was in my room the whole time. I couldn't move or I was sleeping. After day three, I had to text her to tell her that I am sick and need a few things. If you do not see your spouse in a few days when you are living in the same apt, isn't it reasonable to check on them to see if they need anything. She did open the door a few times, but nothing else. She was never like that.
> 
> I do have some questions, maybe you or someone else can chime in on. If she cannot / will not have intercourse, how does she plan on getting pregnant? I offered IVF, she said no. Both these options for us are dead now, so it is mute. What is she working on the courage to do? Then, in another sentence, I really want this marriage to work. What am I missing?


I think she's always been like this, faked/covered it up in the beginning (bait and switch), and now you're seeing the real her. 

And what you're missing is that she has either been lying to herself and/or others about her desire for a child, or she desperately wants one, just not with you.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Regarding the vars and proof. Think like her for a minute. She knows what she has said and thinks, right?

If you call her out - accurately - and refuse to tell her how you know - sure she'll argue but she'll KNOW you know.

Dude haven't you ever played poker? When you show - with confidence and with out a doubt - with you eyes - that you know - and you KNOW her lies are BS and you wave them away like flies - she'll know you know.

You don't have to PROVE anything. Don't you get it? If you say the jigs up, and stand by it - you're good

It's only if you wimper away - feeling like she win because you cant prove it - then she actually did win.

Confidence and being pissed and having the balls to say I'm not taking this BS anymore. If you have that, she'll know you mean businesd


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I agree with all. However, I am thinking taking the issue to her parents and discussing it with them and see where it gets me. Similar to what TTH said, just in person, not via a message. Then, if it leads no where, I guess the inevitable will happen.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> I think she's always been like this, faked/covered it up in the beginning (bait and switch), and now you're seeing the real her.
> 
> And what you're missing is that she has either been lying to herself and/or others about her desire for a child, or she desperately wants one, just not with you.


Funny. That's what my sister said when I explained the situation. She was in shock, but I had to tell someone after hearing that VAR. It was so painful to listen too. Today's, ironically, we clear about me.


----------



## Lilac23

This is an interesting one! I was leaning toward major depressive disorder or possibly late onset of bipolar disorder in your wife until the VAR conversation. I am sure it was very hurtful to hear some of things she said to her mother but remember that she's venting there and that may not be her true feelings. My sister calls me all the time to b!tch about her husband and I think he's a great guy. But! Everyone wants someone to unload on who will take their side and see their point of view. Could you actually hear what her mother was saying or just your wife's side of the conversation? 

I think your wife needs to see a psychiatrist, not your run of the mill clinician. Someone with more than just 'mental' knowledge who can also treat anything that may be going on with her physiologically. Maybe she is going through menopause or maybe she just wants to blame you for everything that is wrong with her life and not take any action to fix it herself. I do think she's definitely depressed and probably needs some medication but if she works in infectious disease she's going to be paranoid about everything, including commonly used drugs.


----------



## MJJEAN

Lilac23 said:


> This is an interesting one! I was leaning toward major depressive disorder or possibly late onset of bipolar disorder in your wife until the VAR conversation. I am sure it was very hurtful to hear some of things she said to her mother* but remember that she's venting there and that may not be her true feelings.* My sister calls me all the time to b!tch about her husband and I think he's a great guy. But! Everyone wants someone to unload on who will take their side and see their point of view. Could you actually hear what her mother was saying or just your wife's side of the conversation?
> 
> I think your wife needs to see a psychiatrist, not your run of the mill clinician. Someone with more than just 'mental' knowledge who can also treat anything that may be going on with her physiologically. Maybe she is going through menopause or maybe she just wants to blame you for everything that is wrong with her life and not take any action to fix it herself. I do think she's definitely depressed and probably needs some medication but if she works in infectious disease she's going to be paranoid about everything, including commonly used drugs.


I disagree. Venting is one thing. But this woman backs up what she is saying with action and inaction. Remember, she is also denying her H normal affection.

A psychologist could be a solution, but for that to work the OP's wife would have to A) admit she has a problem B) be willing to work on said problem and C) be completely honest with her shrink.

Considering the entirety of what the OP has posted, I don't think the odds of that are good.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Funny. That's what my sister said when I explained the situation. She was in shock, but I had to tell someone after hearing that VAR. It was so painful to listen too. Today's, ironically, we clear about me.


You know how guys act all...guy...when there aren't women around? Women do that, too. 

As women, we see and hear things other women do by chatting or listening to them talk on their phones or with others at work, etc. etc. 

I couldn't tell you how many times I've watched or heard about women doing the bait and switch or having a Hail Mary marriage to some guy they felt "meh" about for security or a baby or simply to say they got married.

After a while, you learn to recognize it.

I've watched female friends demeanors completely change when the guy they were dating walked in the room and then instantly change back when he left. 

I've had a LOT of long time female friends say things like "Don't tell him about XYZ, because he thinks I..."

I know no less than 3 women right now who are in the 35-43 year old age group, got married within the last 5 years, and who married men they weren't into just to be married and maybe have a(nother) baby.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Lilac23 said:


> This is an interesting one! I was leaning toward major depressive disorder or possibly late onset of bipolar disorder in your wife until the VAR conversation. I am sure it was very hurtful to hear some of things she said to her mother but remember that she's venting there and that may not be her true feelings. My sister calls me all the time to b!tch about her husband and I think he's a great guy. But! Everyone wants someone to unload on who will take their side and see their point of view. Could you actually hear what her mother was saying or just your wife's side of the conversation?
> 
> I think your wife needs to see a psychiatrist, not your run of the mill clinician. Someone with more than just 'mental' knowledge who can also treat anything that may be going on with her physiologically. Maybe she is going through menopause or maybe she just wants to blame you for everything that is wrong with her life and not take any action to fix it herself. I do think she's definitely depressed and probably needs some medication but if she works in infectious disease she's going to be paranoid about everything, including commonly used drugs.


I will tell you, I was trying to hold this in and just let it pass, but it was just too painful. When I told my sister, they were shocked as well. I gave specific examples of what the wife and the mother said, which I know are not true, as does my sister. Why? Because we were talking about said some of the said issues in front of my sister and Mom. Example, she claims that I kicked her out of the my room. Well, it's a half truth. She manages to omit the fact she was punching me in the face as well as kicking me in the back. Not on purpose, in her sleep. We then BOTH decided it would be best to be in separate sleeping rooms for safety. She claims I will not let her decorate the apt. False. My sister was there when I said we can go to Macys and pick NEW things out that we both like. I will even pay for it. She said, no. I want my things where I want them. That is just not going to work. My sister are surprised I did not file yet. It is clear she's lying to her parents, or at least telling them what she believes, thus, making me look like a big a$$hole. When in fact, I am really trying to help us. Another interesting tidbit. She told her mom that I gave her an ultimatum to either ship up or ship out and become a better wife. False. I said we go no where any more. We have no relationship. We rarely do things. You are sleeping most of the time you are home. I will do anything to help you. Just tell me what you need. The relationship just cannot continue like this. Let's work on this together and fix whatever needs to be fixing. I am here for you 150%. See, she twists my words around to what she is feeling inside it seems. Very weird. 

Not sure, but is it possible that the bi-polar or extreme mood swings are coming out due to stress? It's really hard to hide this type of behavior for 3 - 4 years. 

Yes, I heard both her and her mom's voice on the VAR. She refuses to see a psychiatrist, insists to me it's her work. Her mom thinks it is me. Since I do not know how many 300.00 visits I can afford at the new therapist, I need to nip this in the butt soon. So, here's my plan. I am going to go to either the mom or dad, or both and explain that I need their help with their daughter. Not going into anything on the VAR, just and overview and pick there brain. If it works, we can all get through the wife. If it doesn't, I will have no choice but to regretfully and with a heavy heart file for divorce.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> I disagree. Venting is one thing. But this woman backs up what she is saying with action and inaction. Remember, she is also denying her H normal affection.
> 
> A psychologist could be a solution, but for that to work the OP's wife would have to A) admit she has a problem B) be willing to work on said problem and C) be completely honest with her shrink.
> 
> Considering the entirety of what the OP has posted, I don't think the odds of that are good.


Yes, on the first two therapists, she painted her view of me and then the first one she didn't like. The second one said we both have issues with each other. However, the husband has made changes, the wife, still on the sidelines and needs to make up her mind on what to do. She tells her mom the therapist agreed with everything she said against me. Not true. The therapist ONLY agreed that I was wrong to not include her with my medical issues. Which, I agree, I should had. I changed that last summer, and include her with all I do with my medical problems. She didn't seem to want to be bothered, so I just thought I'd be an weight on her, so I didn't include her. The therapist did say we are not seeing eye to eye on a lot of things and we BOTH have to change. I was told I made a lot of progress, but the wife is stuck on the tracks. She cannot get the delay of the pregnancy out of her mind. However, the therapist did understand about the parental death and my medical issues that flared up during that time.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> You know how guys act all...guy...when there aren't women around? Women do that, too.
> 
> As women, we see and hear things other women do by chatting or listening to them talk on their phones or with others at work, etc. etc.
> 
> I couldn't tell you how many times I've watched or heard about women doing the bait and switch or having a Hail Mary marriage to some guy they felt "meh" about for security or a baby or simply to say they got married.
> 
> After a while, you learn to recognize it.
> 
> I've watched female friends demeanors completely change when the guy they were dating walked in the room and then instantly change back when he left.
> 
> I've had a LOT of long time female friends say things like "Don't tell him about XYZ, because he thinks I..."
> 
> I know no less than 3 women right now who are in the 35-43 year old age group, got married within the last 5 years, and who married men they weren't into just to be married and maybe have a(nother) baby.


That is truly a shame to hear. It's sad to see what some people go to just to get their way. My sister and even mom would agree to most of what you say. My sister is firmly in the camp, now with this information that I told her, that she may had been playing you. All kind and sweet, then marriage, then baby (or not) and then she'd have control over me. She said a lot of women with strong personalities do this. She then get me to sell the apt with the leverage of the baby. She also stated marriages only work in two ways. One, on a close 50/50 relationship which each are contributing to the marriage. Two, when the guy gives in and does whatever the wife wants for peace between them. You, dear brother, have neither. Since we know you will not do the later and give in, I am sad to say, this will probably not work out. She is either too far gone in feelings for you. Never really loved you in the first place, just saw you as a ticket to get what she wants in life. Figured you'd be pretty stable and not leave because of your medical issues and limited options due to them. Or three, if she actually wanted a baby, which she may be tricking herself into, then you didn't facilitate this need, thus she's done with you. All in all, if this is going to work, she needs to be in the game. Right now, she's on the sidelines waiting for a clue and direction. Two out of three therapists didn't seem to help much. Your last ditch effort is with the parents. It may work, but if she cannot get over the resentment, and she just covers it up, you'd be in the same position in the very near future. It's in her personality to be the way she is. She's really a cold, tough as nails person. She pretended to be this nice caring person to reel you in. She doesn't think you will go through with the divorce, so she knows she can do basically whatever she wants. I am telling you brother, if this going through the parents doesn't work, you will need to file for divorce. If not, your life with her will just get worse.

She wasn't crazy about the bugging with the VARs though. She thought that was wrong. Then again, how would I have learned about her feelings towards me?


----------



## MJJEAN

The only thing I disagree with your sister on is taking it any further. I think it's a futile waste of time and energy you could be using to end the sham, heal, and move on. But I get it if you just have to try. Remember, though, that those are the people who made your ex who she is. You probably won't get much help beyond lip service.

And, yes, VARing is kind of wrong. But I think you had real cause for concern and that makes it justifiable in my eyes.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yes, on the first two therapists, she painted her view of me and then the first one she didn't like. The second one said we both have issues with each other. However, the husband has made changes, the wife, still on the sidelines and needs to make up her mind on what to do. She tells her mom the therapist agreed with everything she said against me. Not true. The therapist ONLY agreed that I was wrong to not include her with my medical issues. Which, I agree, I should had. I changed that last summer, and include her with all I do with my medical problems. She didn't seem to want to be bothered, so I just thought I'd be an weight on her, so I didn't include her. The therapist did say we are not seeing eye to eye on a lot of things and we BOTH have to change. I was told I made a lot of progress, but the wife is stuck on the tracks. She cannot get the delay of the pregnancy out of her mind. However, the therapist did understand about the parental death and my medical issues that flared up during that time.


She's on the fence and not doing anything because she simply doesn't want to. It's not that she can't, it's that she won't.

And stop even thinking of being her scapegoat because she didn't get pregnant. She could have gotten pregnant at any time before she met you and after you were together. SHE CHOSE NOT TO.

Women and men make babies during family tragedies all the time. In fact, it's actually quite common for families that have suffered a loss to have a few babies born within a year or so. During funerals and grieving, people are driven to mate and reaffirm life.

I have spent more than my fair share of time in hospitals between my mothers disability, my own health issues, my kids, and other close family members. I was my mothers caregiver because my dad worked. I knew pain management and post surgical wound care before I knew how to write in cursive. In my time, I've watched people who had cancer, kidney failure, paralysis, neurological disorders, and serious long term injuries from traffic or industrial accidents create babies while the injured or disabled partner was having flare ups. This is especially true where the injured/disabled party was the male. Frankly, his job is easy. All he really needs to do is be able to achieve orgasm and wait while his wife's body handles gestation and the rigors of pregnancy.

I'm telling you, if she really wanted a baby with you there would have been an all out effort to have one long before now.

The lack of pregnancy is her way of laying blame on you for the fact that she doesn't have a child and it's her excuse for being cold and detached from you.


----------



## Tobyboy

Your wife is doing everything in her power for YOU to leave her and her coming out looking like the victim!

Why is that? Third party involvement! I bet money on it!!

Keep Var'ing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I just do not know what happened. I thought I did everything right.* I sit down every night, listen to her issues and calm her down. I take her to nice places. I treat her with respect. * I go to her family events. I see her parents weekly. I just do not know what I did wrong. It will kill me to leave, but I just cannot stay in this relationship.


I know it is hard to accept, but *this *is what you have been doing wrong. As long as you give her what she wants, why should she change?


----------



## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Interestingly enough, when I was more distant to her over two + years ago (mostly due to pain and managing medical issues), she was much more affectionate and intimate with me. When I started to become closer and show interest into her, she became more distant. That is very weird.
> 
> I do not like doing this, but I need to know where we are here and what we are doing. Reversing everything I do may have an effect here. Happy instead of said. Far and distant instead of close. Focusing on my and my life instead of caring about what's going around in her work life. We shall see.


Read "Married Man's Sex Life". That explains exactly why this is happening.

I don't like it either, but it's reality.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Regarding the ethics of the VAR, remember the phrase "all's fair in love and war". It's there for a reason.

Absolutely continue with the VAR. you don't have to listen, but now that you have confirmation you're married to a serial liar, you have to use the tools at your disposal to get to the truth you deserve. Is it ethical for her to spread lies about you?

There is a second reason - you have an obligation to ensure that toxic outside influences aren't damaging your marriage. All of us do. Even if W isn't lying... you need to find out if there are any other enemies if your marriage out there.

If you don't know what you're fighting, you'll surely lose.

Keep us posted - this sounds horrific.


----------



## MJJEAN

Oh, that push-pull thing where she acts affectionate until you start being closer and warmer to her? Classic. She doesn't want you unless she can't have you. That kind of thing has nothing to do with you and everything to do with her ability to keep you where she wants you for her own gain.

Evidence? She faced losing you, started showing affection only until she felt you were securely her property again, and then went right back to being cold. Besides, a few years ago she still thought she needed you for the creation of a baby. Now, if she believes she won't get pregnant, you have much less value.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I have a feeling we will have it. I'll just stay in my room.


MIJ,

I hope you are not snowbound with her, but if so stay strong and ignore her comments. And when she asks you to dig her car out of the snow, send her a text to let her know where she can find the snow shovel.


----------



## Divinely Favored

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Chaparral said:
> 
> 
> 
> When my wife decided it was time to get pregnant. It was sex all the time. It took two or three months and she wore ME out. When it was time for the second one, it was hit or miss. She went to the doctor, had tests etc. , nothing. By the time she told six years later she was pregnant, my first thought was that it couldn't be mine.
> 
> I don't know what's up, but she's either bull sh!ting herself or you about wanting to have a child.
> 
> 
> 
> I would think the same. For a woman so crazy about getting pregnant, it's like pushing against a mountain for the last 1.5 years or so. Now, she said again, we can try to have sex, but I must wear a condom. I just do not understand.
Click to expand...

Very very suspicious. She is not in love with you any more and does not want to be tied to you. You are security.

Believe her actions........not what she says.

Sounds like she is trying to be faithful for some one else.


----------



## Divinely Favored

She's has a tough Irish/Greek personality. Since her life has gone to sh!t (her words), this strong personality, her first mentality, everyone aside from my parents are against me, has come out. While we were dating, it wasn't here. She claims it was always there, it just never needed to come out.

Putting my foot down just makes it worse. I've tried that before, it doesn't work. Her saying "I will do things when I want it, not when you tell me to do it", is a common response even though what I am saying is as true as the Sun coming up tomorrow. Then she would say, you are right, I should had listen to you. It goes around and around. Same game, different scenario.[/QUOTE]

Its not attractive to women that they can back you down by getting upset. It makes you look WEAK in her eyes. When you try to change the status quo she is going to get pissy at first. When she knows you are a stone and not weak...she will start being more attracted to you. 

Get her hormone panet tested. She may be low on testosterone, that will kill libido and brain function.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Regarding the ethics of the VAR, remember the phrase "all's fair in love and war". It's there for a reason.
> 
> Absolutely continue with the VAR. you don't have to listen, but now that you have confirmation you're married to a serial liar, you have to use the tools at your disposal to get to the truth you deserve. Is it ethical for her to spread lies about you?
> 
> There is a second reason - you have an obligation to ensure that toxic outside influences aren't damaging your marriage. All of us do. Even if W isn't lying... you need to find out if there are any other enemies if your marriage out there.
> 
> If you don't know what you're fighting, you'll surely lose.
> 
> Keep us posted - this sounds horrific.


Well, the lost recent VARs are clear of me. Though, she didn't talk to her mom yesterday. I will keep VARing as I want to know what's going on in her head. While unfortunate, I feel she vents to her mom, and her mom acts like mother hen to protect her. Even if the relationship improves, which it had in recent months, then went down again. It seems the mom, unwittingly, brings up old issues (from 2 + years ago) and reignites the flame. I feel, again unwittingly, her mom is the catalyst. I would bring this up in therapy, however, the wife would then wonder why I am saying this as well as report back to the mom. Therefore, it's a fruitless task.



MJJEAN said:


> Oh, that push-pull thing where she acts affectionate until you start being closer and warmer to her? Classic. She doesn't want you unless she can't have you. That kind of thing has nothing to do with you and everything to do with her ability to keep you where she wants you for her own gain.
> 
> Evidence? She faced losing you, started showing affection only until she felt you were securely her property again, and then went right back to being cold. Besides, a few years ago she still thought she needed you for the creation of a baby. Now, if she believes she won't get pregnant, you have much less value.


Very true. This week, since I stayed mostly away from her, she's been a plus; as weird as that sounds. She went three times to the market, took out and put in the garbage, and put the plates away in the dishwasher. I showed appreciation and noticed the change, she smiled and then I left the room. She's now asking how I am and how I am doing the last few days. Which, she's not asked for a while now. Very strange. Last night, she brought a surprise dinner home, and we talked for about five minutes. She wanted to gear it about her work, I changed it around to about me and my day. She didn't try to change it back. Again, very strange.



blueinbr said:


> MIJ,
> 
> I hope you are not snowbound with her, but if so stay strong and ignore her comments. And when she asks you to dig her car out of the snow, send her a text to let her know where she can find the snow shovel.





Divinely Favored said:


> Very very suspicious. She is not in love with you any more and does not want to be tied to you. You are security.
> 
> Believe her actions........not what she says.
> 
> Sounds like she is trying to be faithful for some one else.


I agree, I am looking into her actions, not what she says. Words mean little. Yes, we're in the apt together. She actually came into my bed this morning, which was different. All I said is come here, and she came into bed. Though, I didn't try anything. I assumed she would expect me too. I think, in terms of love, she saw me as safe and I wouldn't leave. Thus, she settled for me. She may have had some love interest, but it was more the beta kind, instead of the alpha kind. Safeness, not hornyness.




Divinely Favored said:


> She's has a tough Irish/Greek personality. Since her life has gone to sh!t (her words), this strong personality, her first mentality, everyone aside from my parents are against me, has come out. While we were dating, it wasn't here. She claims it was always there, it just never needed to come out.
> 
> Putting my foot down just makes it worse. I've tried that before, it doesn't work. Her saying "I will do things when I want it, not when you tell me to do it", is a common response even though what I am saying is as true as the Sun coming up tomorrow. Then she would say, you are right, I should had listen to you. It goes around and around. Same game, different scenario.


Its not attractive to women that they can back you down by getting upset. It makes you look WEAK in her eyes. When you try to change the status quo she is going to get pissy at first. When she knows you are a stone and not weak...she will start being more attracted to you. 

Get her hormone panet tested. She may be low on testosterone, that will kill libido and brain function.[/QUOTE]

I show no emotion now aside from happiness and aggressiveness. No arguing. Small chit chat, then I leave the room. Basically, doing everything that I've done before, just opposite. I actually feel better too.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

technovelist said:


> Read "Married Man's Sex Life". That explains exactly why this is happening.
> 
> I don't like it either, but it's reality.


Yes, I have started to read the book and about 50% through it. I see what the author means. However, when he mentions the types of marriages, and then goes to when the wife tells you to get your sex from another woman, that is bad.

However, I still feel there is a big issue with depression here. Example. She came home last night and ate dinner, fell asleep in about an hour after dinner. This morning, she woke up, had brunch, then fell asleep again (still sleeping). I think it may be a mixture of hormone imbalance, depression and/or some other psych. issue.

I was going to call the parents this week and see if we can setup a time to meet and explain how she is acting and how we, as a family, can help her. Maybe start with the dad first and then bring in the mom. However, what is the success rate of this? This is like a mini intervention of sorts. No? Going to her parents when she's almost 41? I really would like to give one last try, but not sure if this will help or hurt the situation. She will probably get really upset and make things worse. Or, they can act like mama and papa bear and shoot me down to protect their only adult child.

Suggestions?


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I was going to call the parents this week and see if we can setup a time to meet and explain how she is acting and how we, as a family, can help her. Maybe start with the dad first and then bring in the mom. However, what is the success rate of this? This is like a mini intervention of sorts. No? Going to her parents when she's almost 41? I really would like to give one last try, but not sure if this will help or hurt the situation. She will probably get really upset and make things worse. ..... Suggestions?


MIJ, I certainly understand how you feel. I did the mini intervention of sorts in 2014. At the time I had NOTHING left to lose. She was 43 at the time. I involved her extended family. Mixed results short term but longer term more positives than negatives. She was angry about what I did. Very angry. But it was the right thing to do. I had to stop a spiral of self destruction. We are still together and marriage is much better now than two years ago. You probably know yours will get really upset. DO NOT let that stop you from doing what you KNOW is right. I would do what I did again in a heartbeat. As time passes, my wife gradually grew to accept more and more that what I did was necessary and right. Of course she would never openly admit that to me. Good luck.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You are jumping to conclusions about the mom negative influence and your inability to bring it up without proof. Remember you said doing the opposite of what you think works. So realize you are defeating ideas because of a defeatist mindset.

You can ABSOLUTELY address the bad mom influence even directly. Just say what you know she's interfering and hashing up a bad past and say it's what you believe. You will be challenged but she will know you are dead on correct. All you have to do is say "I don't know why but that's definitely the sense I get" and she will assume they've slipped up and their duplicity is showing. That's how all lies are exposed.

Just say when things get on a good track then suddenly the past comes up and you turn negative like the past is happening now. But it's not and when things change for the better you reset the clock and turn things bad. I think it's your mom dragging up the past and screwing with your head. Then challenge her - tell her it's her job to protect her marriage and not let this happen. If you are a bit angry, assertive, show you won't be convinced otherwise and KNOW this in your gut / it will be on her to prove you wrong.

Know what power you have - over your own convictions. If you assert them as unassailable, they will be


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Torn about how to proceed. Reason being, the parents, interestingly enough, had written off other people, for some weird things. They wrote off and never spoke to the mother's brother and his family because they didn't come to our wedding. They believe the brother made up a reason stating he and his family didn't come because they didn't want to. Not sure, but they cut communication off completely with them. In another case, a neighbor friend, that't they've know for 45 years had a small fence dispute that went over on their land. While I understand the issue, it was stopped and reversed. They've cut off contact with the neighbor and his wife, and three kids. The mother still talks once and a while to them, but they no longer doing anything together. You see the extremes they go to. I am thinking maybe the wife is trying to be more neutral, but perhaps the mother is rehashing the history. Thus causing the problems. Not intentionally, but perhaps she feels by what the wife is telling her, I am hurting her daughter. Thus, this requires an extreme response.

I can only imagine what their response would be I need your help with your daughter, my wife. She has no energy, sleeps all the time, and depressed about life. They will blame me, and give me the 3rd degree. Who are they going to believe, their own flesh and blood or their son-in-law? Naturally, they will run to protect their daughter at all costs. I am really screwed here it seems.. Plus, this could really have a large negative effect on her as being embarrassed in front of her parents. Of course, then it will turn into a he said she said game.


----------



## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yes, I have started to read the book and about 50% through it. I see what the author means. However, when he mentions the types of marriages, and then goes to when the wife tells you to get your sex from another woman, that is bad.


Yes, of course that is bad. However, now at least you know what she responds to, which is a big help.

Athol makes it clear that you may not get her to act properly no matter what you do, but at least you know what to try.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I can only imagine what their response would be *I need your help with your daughter, my wife. * She has no energy, sleeps all the time, and depressed about life. They will blame me, and give me the 3rd degree. Who are they going to believe, their own flesh and blood or their son-in-law?


Stop imagining and do. If you absolutely know for sure what they will say, then don't bother. But you do not know for sure. 

How you approach them will be key. Make sure you emphasize that YOU need their help, THEIR DAUGHTER needs their help and that your MARRIAGE needs their help. Explain that the symptoms - no energy, sleeps all the time etc. Do not offer causes. Listen to them. Tell them you only want what's best for your wife, their daughter and discuss that if it something physical you would like their help in getting her to see a doctor. Even offer that if the problem is marriage and wife is unhappy, offer to do what is needed to make wife happy - even separation - and again repeat that you would like their help in making their daughter happy again. 

I am sure the above needs some modification but just one possible approach. Make sure that you just do not state that their daughter has a problem. Generously use words "us" and "we" during that talk so as to pull them in.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Dude good eye. I retract my recommendation - do not talk to her parents.

Bring your observations about p&m to the MC. You have the perfect transition to your concerns about your MIL's involvement in your marriage.

Say you're concerned they've already written you off and are poisoning your wife's view of you.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

This is like walking a tight rope. Listened to yesterdays VAR. Nothing negative. Actually, possibly a bit positive on me. They only spent 2 mins talking about me. Let's see what she says after the therapist meet on Tuesday. I bet on Monday, she'll be a bit on edge due to the meet with the therapist.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

So, today was interesting. She was different today, so I sat down to chat with her. She said she read something about fertility treatments and she doesn't like them. Again, my fault. You did this to me. Blah blah blah. I said, you knew the situation, you were given an out, you chose to stay. I offered to freeze your eggs as well offer all other options on the table. You declined. It's not my fault. Yes, it is. You knew I was running out of time, and you purposely delayed. I said you are serious? You keep on changing your mind on what the issue was. Was it your medical issues? Was it your daddy's death? You keep on changing. You cannot keep your story straight. I think you actually believe what you are telling yourself as well. I said. Wow. Really? Couldn't it had been both at the same time since they happened within months of each other? Let's see how well you react when you dad eventually passes away. It's part of life she said. In terms trying, we started immediately after marriage. Do you agree. She said yes, but then my medical issues got in the way. I said, what did you want me to do. I was held over at the hospital multiple times. Then, you refused to have sex because it wasn't fair to me in my condition. Or, there were opioid pain killers in my blood, which would hurt the kid. Then she moved on to moods. When you were in pain, you were horrible. Sorry I said, you seemed to be okay with it at the time. After all, you told me you didn't want me to take opioids, so they gave me weaker meds. Well, we weren't trying, so you should had gone back on them. I was like, this is de ja vu. This cannot be happening again. I then said, do you still want to be with me. She doesn't know, she's thinking. Here's the shocker... she says she's nearly 41 without baby. Being twice divorced at 41 really doesn't work. It's not in my best interest in being divorced at 41. For you, it would be fine, me, not so much. I said, well, so much for true love then. You seem to want it, but you cannot give it. Different rules for different for each of us then.

She says, I took that the wrong way. How else should I take it? You have no love for me... No she said, I love you very very much.. I then said, and you are only staying here because you are afraid of being alone or the unknown of your future. You feel safe. No no no she says.. Hmm, well, this doesn't really work for me. Why am I here? Just because it doesn't bold well for you to be divorced at 41 for a second time? I have a lot of thinking to do then.. I walked away as she says you blow things out of proportion. I cannot even talk to you.. Whatever.

What am I missing here? How did I blow this out of proportion?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Uhhhh I think you just listened to her is all.

In my book it would be over. I would file.

Then wait to see if she chased me. But even then major changes would have to occur.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Here's the kicker. I come back out to get dinner, and she's all nice again. How she loves me, etc. I said, okay. I am not angry, just realized I have a lot to think about here. You say way want total unconditional love, but it has to be on your conditions. In really, I take care of you, you allow me to be married to you. I do not think I can live like this. For you to harbor all this resentment towards me when I was at the lowest point of my life, rock bottom, is unreal. As a person who's been in the medical field for as you as you have been, you knew what I was going through. Or, at least an inkling. Then, for you to now continuously say it's my fault and it was deliberately done to sabotage your chances? What is wrong with you? You were given an out, you should had taken it if you didn't feel you can handle someone with chronic medical issues. This was ALL explained to you in great detail. There were no surprises. I am sorry, but this is not right. 

I am very close to giving her the papers. It's just so incredibly hard to do. I second guess myself and feel I am doing the wrong thing. Turning my back on my "wife" who's "depressed". She was there in my time of need, I should rightfully be there in her time of need. But the bashing and the little to no show of love, compassion, affection and intimacy is not what any spouse should do. She has said she has deep resentment towards me and doesn't know if she can get past it. I do not deserve this hell. Nothing was done on purpose. On numerous times, I told her to come on let's get to baby making. Yes, I was in the bed and was in pain, but I wanted her dream to come true. She said no. You are in no condition for sex. Don't worry about me, just come on. She said it's not a good time. Then, when I was better, I was chasing her with the ovulation app on best times to get pregnant. Again, it was like moving molasses. Interesting when she tells me it takes consistent trying to make a baby, but she would only have intercourse, if I am lucky, once a week. Just amazing. She says I am confused. Who's confused now? She's talking out two sides of her mouth. And, I cannot believe I feel that her mom, the one I've always thought I had a good relationship with, is egging her on. It's just so unfortunate. I really have no idea how my wife turned into a woman like this. And, as for the mother. Wow. I am so surprised. It's all just heartbreaking.


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## Spotthedeaddog

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> What am I missing here? How did I blow this out of proportion?


She doesn't know what she really wants - apart from not to have things unpleasant. In not knowing the best way to deal with this is to reflect it all back at you.

Old technique. Even used by those who should know better. Yes I am talking to you.

Often there will be quotes and facts, then it will all blamed back on you. You'll be so busy dealing with the facts, trying to make sense of linear relevance, that you are unlikely you realise what's happening - this is -not- deliberate. It is an emotional knee-jerk.
She's annoyed so she strikes out at you.

then blames you for being the bad guy.

since the "discussion"/"argument" is now entirely on an emotional foundation there is nothing you can do to improve the situation.
In many ways that's what that learned behavior counts on. Adult Person has left the room and closed the door and you're left with the Child Person to deal with. Act like they are a child - they will hate you for the patronisation and condescension. Attempt familarity, and you'll pretty much trigger the whole "stranger danger" subroutine. The hope is you'll feel remorse for "causing" the upset (or even better "guilt" at being socially/relationshipfully in the wrong) and you will start to give freely and seek permission/appeasement. Remember, this is an emotional game, and child-level anger is what you're interacting with. Do things wrong and you'll have a full blown tantrum to deal with.
Most "civilised" people have evolved a coping mechanism of social lies to keep the Child protected. When you're a home/in a safe environment/with a partner it is easy to let things slip passed those filters... or overwhelm them with constant day-to-day exposure. Trust and expectations can also lead to the Child being upset because the dreams and not the same as the reality they have grown up with. Makes for very difficult reconcilation.

About the best thing you can really do is re-exam the conversation for tipping points and triggers. See if there's anything that you did that was unnecessary or could be handled better next time. Once a person has shut-down on the Adult level, there really isn't anything to work with in regards to adult-relationship behaviors.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

So basically, I am screwed. She's restored to a tantrum and is just unleashing her distain on me. My sister and mother feel that her parents baby her. You know, she speaks to her mom daily, texts daily, visits them weekly on the weekend, etc. I see the texts, are you okay, how's my cookie? Etc. At near 41, it seems a bit childish at times. However, I never said anything. She can hold her cool, usually, and doesn't really act like this unless she doesn't get what she wants. I never saw this before. She cannot handle an extended family party at the apt, how the hell would she be able to handle a a toddler running around the place? Maybe that is why her room is very messy. Maybe she was too coddled as a child and it continued into young adulthood. Now, instead of her mom saying, okay, what caused this argument with your husband, she eggs her on at tells her I should be trying to make up to her for ruining her chance to have children. When the wife says he's angry and giving me an ultimatum to be a better wife (never said that). Why not tell the truth and say, well mom, I've been withholding intimacy from my husband for a year now. I also told him to find sex elsewhere, because I cannot (will not) meet his sexual needs. In addition, when I am home from work or on the weekend, I am usually either watching TV or sleeping. In addition, I do not like to clean, cook, help with around the apt chores. I rather leave it up to my husband to do. After all, I am only here to sleep and on the weekends. It's his apt., he can do it.

Sorry for the rant, but things are spinning in my head. In the end, it seems a nature vs nurture issue here. This was basically how she was raised. She feels she's independent, but in reality, she isn't. When she doesn't get her way, then she has a tantrum. In addition, she will only do something if there is something in the end for her. Or, if she hits a nerve with me, then she'll try to be nice and stuff to regain some ground. 

I am reading that right?


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## farsidejunky

First, brother, I need you to Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. You cannot navigate this situation without understanding the roles.

That is step one in your new future, whether it be with or without her. Please let me know when you have done this 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

Sounds pretty horrible. Unfortunately others here have experienced various parts - or all - of what you are experiencing. So listen, reflect, try to get to 50,000 and catch your breath, and make the best decision you can.

Spot is correct - emotionally driven rants simply aren't logical. BUT they also may not reflect how someone truly feels. 

I was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago. When I googled I found a life expectancy of 8 years. How do you deal with that at 49 with 5 kids and a wonderful spouse? Alcohol and pushing them away is how, hoping they stop relying on you because you can't be there. I had some emotional times and I was shocked and didn't believe my own thoughts. I saw a sex therapist because I am rational 25/7 but was rewriting history in my emotional panic and what I was thinking was not actually true. Hard to describe. I'm a kind of alpha guy I guess and I got a brief glimpse of what it's like to think emotionally and it's crazy.

So if W is always or mostly emotionally driven and won't take responsibility to "fix" that by working on rational thinking, then there's not much you can do.

IDK - I would immediately insist on MC as a condition of staying married and try to break her away from her history revisionist world. If she won't go - tell her exactly why she is breaking up the marriage - her refusal to accept help to start behaving rationally.

I get the second guessing because you want to love her and you want to reciprocate the support. But she has to be able to move past this panicked thinking if she intends to be a spouse.

BTW - the discussion where she admitted you are better than being single at 41 actually killed it for me. I think that was honest and horrific. I would be hanging my head in sorrow as I packed. Sorry.


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## aine

I am going to go against the common flow of posters here. I have read all of your comments and my take on this is that your wife is really resentful and hurting. She feels she has sacrificed so much (inability to have kids) is already 41, you have put your mother and yourself first all along and not stopped to think about her . She was the good wife and helped you she loves you. However, there is always a limit, she is now mourning and grieving and depressed but your response is very unloving. She is right to tell her mother that your response (though not in so many words) is for her to ' shape up or else" Is that how you treat someone who is grieving?

You and many of the posters here are looking at this scenario through a male lens. Instead of justifying that you are right, you said this and that, your response should be to tell her you know she is grieving and hold her in your arms and tell her you will both get through this. She is blaming you , not because of history but because you are not showing her the love and support she needs right now as a woman and your wife, you are still only interested in your being right and solving the problem. Instead you are being an obtuse fool and others are egging you on and making claims of affairs and teaching her who is boss, etc. However, your bravado and posturing will only result in a walk away wife and no wonder.

Your main problem is you do not know how to show your wife you love her, there is a huge communication problem. You may already have done too much damage. She was there for you but you have shown yourself as being incapable of being there for her and how dare she be depressed, talk to her mum about you, etc. Boy, you are a catch.

I suspect you haven't treated her honorably for quite some time, how you dealt with the bedroom issue shows. Asking your wife to leave because it inconvenience you, another example of lack of showing love, yes you came up with practical solutions, how dare she not be logical and accept them. Women do not think the way men do. What you do as a H has many implications for it may be interpreted by your W very differently. 
It appears to me, she still loves you but is tired and has given up and what are you doing about it? 
Making excuses for why you are right and she is wrong.


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## TheTruthHurts

Thanks aine I usually really enjoy your posts.

So OP reach out and try this first. You clearly want to anyway.

I'd love it to work and as I pointed out with my brief emotionally driven tirades, people don't always believe what they're saying when panicked.

So aine please sit in the directors chair and explain - to us Neanderthals - in a way we understand. And I'm not being condescending - I am a wonderfully supportive (to my wife and kids only) guy who is driven by testosterone. I honestly don't know how I could approach a woman who shows such disrespect and distain. These emotions blind us guys with rage and defense so please help us move past it and tell OP exactly how you would get W out of her delusional and hurtful state.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> First, brother, I need you to Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. You cannot navigate this situation without understanding the roles.
> 
> That is step one in your new future, whether it be with or without her. Please let me know when you have done this
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I read the Karpman Drama Triangle on Wikipedia. I can seem some correlation between that and our situation. Not necessarily in a codependent light, but I see where I, the wife and the mother-in-law fit into this triangle.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sounds pretty horrible. Unfortunately others here have experienced various parts - or all - of what you are experiencing. So listen, reflect, try to get to 50,000 and catch your breath, and make the best decision you can.
> 
> Spot is correct - emotionally driven rants simply aren't logical. BUT they also may not reflect how someone truly feels.
> 
> I was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago. When I googled I found a life expectancy of 8 years. How do you deal with that at 49 with 5 kids and a wonderful spouse? Alcohol and pushing them away is how, hoping they stop relying on you because you can't be there. I had some emotional times and I was shocked and didn't believe my own thoughts. I saw a sex therapist because I am rational 25/7 but was rewriting history in my emotional panic and what I was thinking was not actually true. Hard to describe. I'm a kind of alpha guy I guess and I got a brief glimpse of what it's like to think emotionally and it's crazy.
> 
> So if W is always or mostly emotionally driven and won't take responsibility to "fix" that by working on rational thinking, then there's not much you can do.
> 
> IDK - I would immediately insist on MC as a condition of staying married and try to break her away from her history revisionist world. If she won't go - tell her exactly why she is breaking up the marriage - her refusal to accept help to start behaving rationally.
> 
> I get the second guessing because you want to love her and you want to reciprocate the support. But she has to be able to move past this panicked thinking if she intends to be a spouse.
> 
> BTW - the discussion where she admitted you are better than being single at 41 actually killed it for me. I think that was honest and horrific. I would be hanging my head in sorrow as I packed. Sorry.


I am sorry you were diagnosed with cancer. I cannot even imagine what you are going through. I hope things are progressing into remission for you.

As for my wife, she was more logically driven than emotional. This changed about 1.5 - 2 years ago. It's been nearly entirely emotional since then for both work and personal life. She says she wants the marriage to work, however, it seems she does nothing to improve it and only sabotage it so it degrades further. I do not think she does this knowingly, or maybe she does. Whatever she is doing is actually hurting her chances for a child, not increasing it; as we are moving farther and farther away as a couple. She always tells me we must look forward, not back. Yet, she cannot follow her own recommendations.

Yes, the single at near 41 was really a heart stopper. I do not know if she even knows how much that hurt. Basically, it makes me feel like, since she feels in her depressed state, she cannot do better, I will settle. However, once she's out of her depressed state, I am telling you, she'll move on like nothing ever happened. I can see that. Since she moved into my apt, she would be the one who needs to leave, not me. Ironically, she offered to leave out of the blue a couple of weeks ago. I guess I should had taken her up on her offer.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

aine said:


> I am going to go against the common flow of posters here. I have read all of your comments and my take on this is that your wife is really resentful and hurting. She feels she has sacrificed so much (inability to have kids) is already 41, you have put your mother and yourself first all along and not stopped to think about her . She was the good wife and helped you she loves you. However, there is always a limit, she is now mourning and grieving and depressed but your response is very unloving. She is right to tell her mother that your response (though not in so many words) is for her to ' shape up or else" Is that how you treat someone who is grieving?
> 
> You and many of the posters here are looking at this scenario through a male lens. Instead of justifying that you are right, you said this and that, your response should be to tell her you know she is grieving and hold her in your arms and tell her you will both get through this. She is blaming you , not because of history but because you are not showing her the love and support she needs right now as a woman and your wife, you are still only interested in your being right and solving the problem. Instead you are being an obtuse fool and others are egging you on and making claims of affairs and teaching her who is boss, etc. However, your bravado and posturing will only result in a walk away wife and no wonder.
> 
> Your main problem is you do not know how to show your wife you love her, there is a huge communication problem. You may already have done too much damage. She was there for you but you have shown yourself as being incapable of being there for her and how dare she be depressed, talk to her mum about you, etc. Boy, you are a catch.
> 
> I suspect you haven't treated her honorably for quite some time, how you dealt with the bedroom issue shows. Asking your wife to leave because it inconvenience you, another example of lack of showing love, yes you came up with practical solutions, how dare she not be logical and accept them. Women do not think the way men do. What you do as a H has many implications for it may be interpreted by your W very differently.
> It appears to me, she still loves you but is tired and has given up and what are you doing about it?
> Making excuses for why you are right and she is wrong.


Well Aine, I will respond to your statements one by one to show that you may be mistaken in your feelings towards me. First off, I know she is resentful and hurting, but she put herself in this position. She also continues to dig herself deeper and deeper. Instead of being part of the solution, she continues to be part of the problem. Well, my father died, and I was the only one able to assist in making sure my mother was okay. She's in her 70's and I had my wife's support. As for as myself, I am sorry for putting myself ahead of my wife. After all, I am sure any spouse would risk being immobilized for life, stroke or aneurysm just to make their wife # 1 priority. I am being sarcastic. Yes, OF COURSE I am going to put myself ahead of her if my life is in danger of being severely compromised or possible death. Please also note, my wife, during our dating phase had female medical issues. Guess who was with her during the whole ordeal. Guess who went to doctors with her. Guess who found the one doctor who was able to cure her misery and hell for almost a year. ME. What do I get, oh, well that was five or six years ago. As for her mourning and grieving, again, she put herself in to that position. We tried right after marriage for a couple of months, and then I was hospitalized. SHE decided it wasn't a good time due to my medical situation. Then, a few months later, we started to try again. She got discouraged and gave up. For the last year there has been no intimacy. For a woman who wants a kid, this shouldn't be this hard. For the last six months she is saying she doesn't know if she wants a child with me. Then why are you here? She is sabotaging herself, I am not doing it. Would you like to know what else I did to make her feel "unloved" as you put it:

Modified my meds to ensure there was no damage to the sperm. Thus causing more discomfort and extreme pain during that time period.
Listen to her 2 + hour daily work rants.
Help her calm down after work and on the weekend
Cook dinner near nightly
Clean up after her
Got her on a budget with her money
Helped her negotiate her car less
Helped her negotiate her insurance and cell contracts
Fixed her car when she got into two accidents so she didn't have to pay a dime for nor go on her insurance.
Go food shopping.
Drive her to her parents weekly.
Picked out three therapists for us. She was going to find one, but never actually looked.


That is what I am doing. What is she doing for us, nothing. Just standing there complaining but not helping the situation. 

I never said I was right and she was wrong. I said, we need to work together in order to heal. This she cannot do. Before putting your two cents in and placing me as the sole big bad guy, why not check the facts first. You will see, you may not know or understand everything.


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## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I read the Karpman Drama Triangle on Wikipedia. I can seem some correlation between that and our situation. Not necessarily in a codependent light, but I see where I, the wife and the mother-in-law fit into this triangle.


Good. You will also find that you may switch roles, sometimes in mid conversation There is a sweet spot in the middle of that triangle, where you maintain civility because you proactively avoid each of the chairs. That is what is commonly referred to around here as 50,000 feet. It allows you to separate your emotions from the situation to see it clearly.

So, getting to 50,000 feet, what is it you really want? Give me the ideal version, please.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> Good. You will also find that you may switch roles, sometimes in mid conversation There is a sweet spot in the middle of that triangle, where you maintain civility because you proactively avoid each of the chairs. That is what is commonly referred to around here as 50,000 feet. It allows you to separate your emotions from the situation to see it clearly.
> 
> So, getting to 50,000 feet, what is it you really want? Give me the ideal version, please.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Happiness and being with the woman I married. Each providing the support, compassion, love, admiration, intimacy and affection a couple needs to prosper in life.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

The latest VAR, she was talking to her mom about moving out and living closer to where she works. Said I was hard to live with this weekend during the snowstorm. Yet, I didn't say anything but good morning and how are you feeling on Saturday. We even watched a movie and she was laughing. On Sunday, we talked a little bit about IVF, and she told her mom he now wants to do IVF, but I do not trust it. Even though, I mentioned this nearly two years ago.

So very said. Guess I VAR'd too late. I think the relationship is dead. We have a family gathering coming up in a week. I guess I will discuss divorce after the gathering so there is no awkwardness there. However, we she talking to her mom and I am talking to my sister and mom, it's like we all know some go it. I guess her dad will be the last to know. She even said I and her previous husband are similar, or I am a bit worse. Couldn't it be her? Even her mom said, do you think you are overreacting a bit. She laughed it off. What a disaster. I am so ashamed of how I allowed this relationship to end up in shambles. Honest to G-d, I've tried my best. This is going to hurt for sometime.. However, maybe it's a blessing in disguise. If I am having issues now with her before a kid, after would be world war III. Still, it doesn't make it feel any better.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sucks.

Please stick around TAM. Many guys resist the VAR, insisting it os a break of trust and their spouse wouldn't say anything bad about them.

I'm sorry but you are now a poster child in the benefits of the VAR. Sucks but the truth is better than continued betrayal behind your back.

Small consolation.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've tried my best.


Yes, you have. You should not feel guilty. Sad, yes. Guilty, no. Sometimes doing all the right things does not lead to the desired outcome.

If your wife does not want to stay married, or won't work on the marriage, or won't seek outside help, then the marriage will not last. 

Good luck my friend. Your future short term will be tough and sad at times, but it will get better. 

Life is too short, you deserve to be happy. Stay strong.


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## aine

TheTruthHurts said:


> Thanks aine I usually really enjoy your posts.
> 
> So OP reach out and try this first. You clearly want to anyway.
> 
> I'd love it to work and as I pointed out with my brief emotionally driven tirades, people don't always believe what they're saying when panicked.
> 
> So aine please sit in the directors chair and explain - to us Neanderthals - in a way we understand. And I'm not being condescending - I am a wonderfully supportive (to my wife and kids only) guy who is driven by testosterone. I honestly don't know how I could approach a woman who shows such disrespect and distain. These emotions blind us guys with rage and defense so please help us move past it and tell OP exactly how you would get W out of her delusional and hurtful state.


There is obviously love on both sides but in frustration both are talking about divorce, living alone, separation etc. It is the crazy cycle. She feels unloved (because lets face it some of his actions appear to be unloving, e.g. the bedroom, the shape up shift out, demand for intimacy, etc). He feels disrespected with her emotional outbursts, talking behind his back etc. A man feeling disrespected has no intention of showing love and a woman feeling unloved has no intention of giving her husband the respect he so craves. This is based on the work of Dr Eggerichs. Too often we make the assumption that our spouse is trying to make us miserable or is our enemy, if we change our opinion of them assume they are goodwilled it can change he dynamic of the relationship. 
Here is a link explaining the crazy cycle and i think OP and his wife is on it

Is Living On The Crazy Cycle Killing Your Marriage? -


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Just confused. On Sunday, she says to her mom that I am similar to her previous husband, maybe worse. Thinking about moving out and even tells me it's not in her best interest to be second time divorced at 41. Yesterday and today she's been incredibly nice, initiated sex and happy. In addition, texting me "happy thoughts". I am soo confused here...


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## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Just confused. On Sunday, she says to her mom that I am similar to her previous husband, maybe worse. Thinking about moving out and even tells me it's not in her best interest to be second time divorced at 41. Yesterday and today she's been incredibly nice, initiated sex and happy. In addition, texting me "happy thoughts". I am soo confused here...


She's either confused, or sensing she will be single at 41, so is drawing you back in with a few crumbs of affection so she can leave on HER timeline. The VAR...


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## TheTruthHurts

Here's the bottom line - either she becomes a good, sincere, loving wife who defends her husband and marriage always 

Or

She remains emotionally distant, looks out for herself, talks badly about her husband and marriage, takes you for granted, throws crumbs and occasional attention at you to string you along so she's not alone and has financial security.

W #1 I would want; W #2 I would NEVER accept.

Which is she?

If her crumbs are keeping you confused, which they are designed to do, and you can't pull the trigger because you want to believe she can become W #1, then go ahead, refer to Sunday's time, and stipulate all the things I said. Tell her that's all you'll accept going forward.

Then listen to the VAR. she'll either

1-say nothing (doubtful)
2-get worried and express that she wants to be a better wife or she'll lose you (doubtful)
3-mock and ridicule you, say you're pressuring her, and are a drama queen (likely)

Test this if you want


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## 225985

Bipolar? Below from healthline.com. Get her to agree to see doctor with you when she is in one of the better moods, like now. Same advice, different day. 

"Bipolar disorder is challenging to diagnose because mood swings can vary. Studies show about one in three people diagnosed with major depression may actually have bipolar disorder. Also, 40 percent of people with bipolar disorder receive another diagnosis first. They could go several years before being correctly diagnosed."


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## aine

Yes your wife has many issues, we have heard all of them from you. However, it would be very interesting to hear her take on the issue of you.
I am not buying this scenario at all, you have made yourself out to be perfect and the poor mistreated H in all of this, but you have swept under the rug your history, the past can do a lot of damage to a marriage and in this instance I believe it has to your W. 
She is protecting herself now, she remains emotionally distant, she has no reason to trust you with her heart, and the best way to do that is to see you in a bad light and convince herself you are not her friend anymore, not someone she can rely on, in her mind this is true as your actions have shown this to her. 

So are you going to be a man and stop blaming her, stop making excuses, stop saying she did this, she did that. Step up take control and 'lead' in your marriage, show your woman some love and go from there. Sadly I do not see you being this man, from your earlier posts it was all about you, how you feel, etc. These are exactly the type of men, women walk away from when they reach the point of no return.

To my mind, you should get some IC, become a better man, suggest she do the same thing, then see where it goes, as it is you are both on a roller coaster trying to one up each other and its going nowhere.


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## aine

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry. Keep up the var but you may not really need it. It's just a good idea to be thorough because this is important.
> 
> She changed and not for the better. Doesn't really matter how or why. You might think she can change back - maybe she can - but I think she will always blame you for being childless.
> 
> I'm a pretty direct guy. I loath liars, including those who lie by omission. So I personally would probably send an email to her parents saying
> 
> "I'm really sorry that after two years of attempting to get W pregnant; attempts to get IVF so she can be a mom; attempts to get her eggs frozen to extend the window for her to get pregnant; attempts to get IC and MC to help her get the medical help necessary to get pregnant, that I've run out of options. I can't help her achieve her dreams of being a mom. She hasn't had sex with me in ______ (time period) and really for the past _____ before that we barely had sex. She moved out of our bedroom. I can't do it all alone and W is not interested in doing anything about this except resent me for her choices. If you can help her emotionally without being a negative influence in our marriage that would be good for her."
> 
> I believe in getting it out in the open. The ****roaches scurry away in the light, and manipulators find they are exposed and I don't have time for that sh1t.


OMG, I want to comment on this post because it is typical of a man to approach something like this with a sledgehammer!
The poor woman is facing the realisation she may never have children, as you are not a woman you do not understand what is can do to a woman emotionally. Then you approach it with this directness (patting yourself on the back for being so 'honest') :scratchhead:

Imagine yourself and your W, time is running out to have kids and you cannot get it up. She is constantly putting you under pressure to perform at the right time and it leads to many fails. Then she tells you you had better shape up, you had better do this and that, go see a specialist, etc. Meanwhile you are dealing with the emotional aspects of your ahem failing member. Wouldn't you witdraw emotionally, would you see your 'bossy' wife as disrespectful, uncaring, etc. Then on top of that she writes a letter to let your parents know you cannot have kids because you are such a failure, etc etc. :surprise::slap:

That really is the way to go, none o you have the first clue about the heart of a woman.


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## TheTruthHurts

Aine you misunderstand me. We tried 10 years to have kids, did all manner of infirtility, induced menopause, did daily shots (w did on herself) of drugs probably not even approved anymore, did laparoscopic extraction of eggs, cryogenic freezing of eggs, sperm testing, invetro, IVF.

All this takes commitment from both spouses. Instead W blames OP and does none of these things.

So don't assume I don't know what a woman goes through when she can't have kids.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> She's either confused, or sensing she will be single at 41, so is drawing you back in with a few crumbs of affection so she can leave on HER timeline. The VAR...


Certainly a possibility. The VARs have been empty since the weekend.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Here's the bottom line - either she becomes a good, sincere, loving wife who defends her husband and marriage always
> 
> Or
> 
> She remains emotionally distant, looks out for herself, talks badly about her husband and marriage, takes you for granted, throws crumbs and occasional attention at you to string you along so she's not alone and has financial security.
> 
> W #1 I would want; W #2 I would NEVER accept.
> 
> Which is she?
> 
> If her crumbs are keeping you confused, which they are designed to do, and you can't pull the trigger because you want to believe she can become W #1, then go ahead, refer to Sunday's time, and stipulate all the things I said. Tell her that's all you'll accept going forward.
> 
> Then listen to the VAR. she'll either
> 
> 1-say nothing (doubtful)
> 2-get worried and express that she wants to be a better wife or she'll lose you (doubtful)
> 3-mock and ridicule you, say you're pressuring her, and are a drama queen (likely)
> 
> Test this if you want


I'd prefer option # 1. I guess, for the time being, I just will have to see how this plays out.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Bipolar? Below from healthline.com. Get her to agree to see doctor with you when she is in one of the better moods, like now. Same advice, different day.
> 
> "Bipolar disorder is challenging to diagnose because mood swings can vary. Studies show about one in three people diagnosed with major depression may actually have bipolar disorder. Also, 40 percent of people with bipolar disorder receive another diagnosis first. They could go several years before being correctly diagnosed."


She seems to go from side to side from day to day. However, she's under a lot of stress at work, and I get that. Ironically, this woman hates doctors. She has trust issues and has said several times, she only trusts herself and her parents to me and others. Very weird way of looking at the world, but that is what she believes.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

aine said:


> Yes your wife has many issues, we have heard all of them from you. However, it would be very interesting to hear her take on the issue of you.
> I am not buying this scenario at all, you have made yourself out to be perfect and the poor mistreated H in all of this, but you have swept under the rug your history, the past can do a lot of damage to a marriage and in this instance I believe it has to your W.
> She is protecting herself now, she remains emotionally distant, she has no reason to trust you with her heart, and the best way to do that is to see you in a bad light and convince herself you are not her friend anymore, not someone she can rely on, in her mind this is true as your actions have shown this to her.
> 
> So are you going to be a man and stop blaming her, stop making excuses, stop saying she did this, she did that. Step up take control and 'lead' in your marriage, show your woman some love and go from there. Sadly I do not see you being this man, from your earlier posts it was all about you, how you feel, etc. These are exactly the type of men, women walk away from when they reach the point of no return.
> 
> To my mind, you should get some IC, become a better man, suggest she do the same thing, then see where it goes, as it is you are both on a roller coaster trying to one up each other and its going nowhere.


You can chose to believe what you want. All three therapists have said I give a pretty good neutral view of what each other's roles have been. This is how it is. You may want to defend her just because that your hunch or feeling, and that is okay. You have a right to interpret my detailed posts however you may wish. I've noted my faults and I've noted hers. Interpret them as you wish, it still doesn't change the facts. It has nothing to be with being a man or stop blaming her. I can only list the actions done by each party. Again, these are the facts and the VARS state that she changes words around to fit her feelings for that moment. I never said I was a perfect husband. I doubt any spouse is a perfect spouse. We can only try to be the best we can be to each other. 
I am not trying to get "one up" on no one, but I appreciate your insight.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

aine said:


> OMG, I want to comment on this post because it is typical of a man to approach something like this with a sledgehammer!
> The poor woman is facing the realisation she may never have children, as you are not a woman you do not understand what is can do to a woman emotionally. Then you approach it with this directness (patting yourself on the back for being so 'honest') :scratchhead:
> 
> Imagine yourself and your W, time is running out to have kids and you cannot get it up. She is constantly putting you under pressure to perform at the right time and it leads to many fails. Then she tells you you had better shape up, you had better do this and that, go see a specialist, etc. Meanwhile you are dealing with the emotional aspects of your ahem failing member. Wouldn't you witdraw emotionally, would you see your 'bossy' wife as disrespectful, uncaring, etc. Then on top of that she writes a letter to let your parents know you cannot have kids because you are such a failure, etc etc. :surprise::slap:
> 
> That really is the way to go, none o you have the first clue about the heart of a woman.


Once again, I wasn't the one who kept her from trying before she met me. We met when she was around 36, she was three or four years out of her last marriage. Interestingly enough, her pervious husband now has two kids of his own with a new wife. Nonetheless, after marriage, we started trying like agreed. Unfortunately, after two or three months I was hospitalized multiple times and thus we had to stop trying for around 8 months or so. In the Fall, I was all ready to go and we started trying again. We were trying for several months, then she had given up hope. Her trying, is once during ovulation, where as I suggested we try more than once. She said once is enough. Then, she pulled away from trying in early 2015. Then, she pulled away from intercourse completely in the Summer 2015. I, not her, got her in to see the best OB-GYNs in the metro area. Each time, she refused to allow me to come with her. I honestly do not know what else you want me to do. I am not going to force intercourse on her. A woman says no, it's no. However, one cannot then turn the tables around and then say, well you delayed. I am sorry that I put myself first due to medical needs. I didn't really feel like being a vegetable or dying right now. She asked me to get off opioid pain killers so it wouldn't stop us from trying, I did so. It made pain very bad during the episodes. Nothing I can do about it. I honored her request. I was ready and willing several times where she said you're not in any shape to have sex. 

So, please, do sit there on your computer telling me that I didn't try hard enough for her, me or the relationship. To try and bring her and our dreams true. That is complete horsesh!t. I did the best I could. Let's see how you act when you lost your father. When your in constant chronic pain 24/7 and going to doctors two or three days a week as well as the local hospital because the pain is unbearable. This is not just a bad back. This is several busted discs in the cervical and lumber regions of the spinal cord. Movement is extremely limited. Pain is horrendous. Days I am immobile and cannot even move. In addition, blood pressure from the pain was so great, I was at risk several times for an aneurysm. I told her she should have to wait through this and I do not want to hold you up with your dreams or life. She should move on without me. She said no, I am here with you. 

I am grateful for her on that aspect. However, for it to be turned around on me now, when I can function normally and trying hard to get her to pickup with the child where we left off, is unreal. I am sorry for how life played out. However, we deal with the cards life plays on us. That is how life is. You can choose to understand my posts, take the contrarian view and act like a devils advocate. Regardless, two people in a marriage need to work together. There are ups and there are downs. Holding distain and resentment towards me during a time where I was basically incapacitated during treatment and recovery is just not right.


----------



## OpenWindows

Just a question that's been nagging me throughout your thread...

You keep saying that you offered to make a baby while you had medical issues, and she declined, so it's her fault.

But if you were in that much pain and having that many issues, would you have been capable of helping care for that child?

Of course it wasn't your fault you were hurting... but was having a baby at that time really a feasible option for your wife? Or would she have been caring for you AND an infant?


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> She seems to go from side to side from day to day. However, she's under a lot of stress at work, and I get that. Ironically, this woman hates doctors.


There are far more issues in play here than just job stress. From your posts, here are some of items I see:

Your wife is getting / feeling "old". Turning 40 is a BIG deal for many people and she may feel her best years are behind her.
She was divorced once already. She feels divorced twice will make her undesirable to any new partner.
She waited long time to conceive.
She may doubt she is physically able to now. Did she try to have kids in first marriage? 
Her ex husband remarried AND HAS KIDS. That is probably hurting her a lot. 
Probably hates the commute to work. She wants to move closer to the job she hates?? Don't get that one.
Job stress at work. Why not get another job or transfer within her current employer?
She does not have a child. (yes, probably guys cannot understand that part.)

I am not trying to paint a bad picture of her. She has good qualities and I am sure like everyone else you are no saint.

Have you just talked to her parents, causally with no expectations, about your wife's happiness?? No intervention, but just a talk. Like "______ is not happy. Do you know why and how can we help her...?"

BTW, your sister and mom are not on YOUR SIDE. They are supporting you in your time of difficulty. There is no her side or his side here. Until you separate or divorce, there is only "OUR SIDE", one side. 

Good luck.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

intheory said:


> MIJ,
> 
> When I read the post where you revealed the mother-daughter VAR conversations :surprise: Boy, you must have felt sick. I think I would have been so shocked, physically, that I might have been sick to my stomach.
> 
> I've read the whole thread. You have made it clear that you did everything possible to impregnate your wife. Don't feel that you have to keep defending yourself. I don't see how you could have done more.
> 
> Regarding your wife's two-facedness. I can't help but wonder if her family sort-of knows she is like this. I wouldn't be surprised if there are family members and ex-friends; who caught on to her "Jekyll-Hyde" personality?? Not that that is particularly important to you at this point. But you'd be surprised how many other folks may have had similar experiences with her. This type of behavior can seldom be confined or controlled for long.
> 
> So glad that you've got a sister and mom on your side. Hate to think of you having to tackle this all alone.
> 
> I noted you still have separate bank accounts from each other. My H and I had separate accounts the first 10 years of our relationship. And, I have to confess, it was hard to completely trust at first. That's why I wanted it that way. Easier to head for the exit sign, if things don't work out, you know?
> 
> Once again, that's water under the bridge for you now. But how money is handled by a couple is very revealing of the dynamics of a relationship. It pretty accurately reflects how they feel about the relationship; and each other.
> 
> And I noticed you kept saying that you would offer to pay for things; ie. the IVF treatments, if she had wanted them.
> 
> Why didn't she offer to pay for them? Or offer to contribute?
> 
> Same with the redecorating of the apartment. Why does it all come out of your account?
> 
> I know things can't always be 50/50 exactly; that would be silly. But, you know, both people chip in if you are keeping the finances in separate accounts.
> 
> I'm a woman who never planned to have kids. And nothing ever happened to change my mind. I realize I am not "normal". So, take that into consideration while reading the following:
> 
> This planet has +/- 7 billion people. The population is doubling at shorter and shorter intervals. Long story short; there is no scarcity of humans - very much the opposite. If there were a plague, or a war, where a couple of billion people were killed: then the survivors might consider it their duty to make a lot more people. There is no such urgency right now in history.
> 
> Your wife delayed having children until it was too late. That is too bad. But, actions have consequences. She is squirming, this way and that, to avoid facing the cold truth that she brought this about by her delay. Her feeling grief and sadness would be understandable. Her taking it out on you is completely unacceptable.
> 
> I'm 50. I will never have children. I will die and no-one will carry on my genes or remember me. I reflected on this when younger. And in the last couple of years, as it seems that I'm starting to get nearer menopause; I've reflected on it more often. It doesn't make me feel fantastic. But I still feel that I made the right decision I could, for me, in my life circumstances. I don't have kids; the sun will continue to rise, day-to-day life will go on, no-one outside my husband and I will care or be affected.
> 
> Your wife (and you maybe) will be in the same situation; but for different reasons. Just like millions and millions of other human beings who, for whatever reason, didn't physically reproduce: they were infertile, they never found a mate, they died in childhood or teenage years. Whatever the reason;much of humanity dies without issue. Your wife has not been singled out by the universe to be the only one to ever meet this fate.
> 
> If she really, really loved children; she (you guys) could try adopting. That said, by your description of her, I think she'd make a subpar parent.
> 
> Volunteer at organizations which look out for the welfare of children. Be a great, loving aunt (I had such a childless aunt and uncle myself) There are ways to care for and nurture children if you are childless. After digesting the fact that you are not going to have your own.
> 
> I hope I don't sound heartless to her plight. I'm thinking of being constructive.
> 
> Most of what I have written, I wrote with the aim of supporting you. I really was shocked by that VAR post. I don't really write any of this thinking that you should stay with your wife. I tend to agree with everyone else on the thread, that she needed a kind, decent guy to donate his sperm, and pick up a lot of the financial obligations. And, apparently, do most of the cleaning and cooking?? Is that right.
> 
> Being your partner and lover did not seem to be part of the equation.
> 
> ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> @MJJEAN
> 
> Thanks for those wonderful posts, describing how people with disability and illness, stand by each other. Especially appreciated after hearing OP's wife and mother's VAR conversation.
> 
> And @MarriageInJeopardy , they say eavesdroppers never hear good about themselves. All the more reason to eavesdrop, I say. In such cases as these, ignorance is NOT bliss.
> 
> All the best to you.


Yes, I was sick to my stomach when I heard those conversations. I wasn't going to inform my blood family, but they saw me a few days later and knew something was up. I felt better after getting it off my chest, but it still is a very hard pill to swallow. Honestly, she tells me one thing, and she tells her mom there other. Example. She said to her mom she thinks I had a mental disorder. So, just to cover all bases, I went to my neurologist and asked them to test me for all different types of mental disorders. It came back clean. Doc said I was only in chronic pain, and that is not a disorder. I told my wife, this, and she backs off stating I never said or thought you had a mental disorder while smiling and laughing. Weird.

I honestly wanted to have a child with her, however, it seems we take one step forward and two steps back. Every time I feel we're making progress, she changes direction. Claims to her mom she has a lot of time to think. I offered adoption and a surrogate, she yelled and screamed if I am having a baby, it's coming out of me! I really do not know what else I could have done then or now.

Not sure about the dad, but the mom seems to always support the daughter, regardless. Doesn't really offer any reasoning most of the time. The mom did ask if my wife was overreacting a bit towards the past 1.5 years of me "delaying" her for having a child; which I thought was an interesting turn. She laughed it off. This came about when she said to her mom that he things it's all in my head.

Yes, my sister and mom calmed me down a lot after I listed to the first VAR. I was very upset and in shock. I kept going over in my head what did I do wrong to make her feel that I honestly and on purpose delayed her? It makes no sense whatsoever. However, that is not how she plays it to her mom and possibly dad. I also think that the mom and possibly the dad are grand-baby crazy and placing additional pressure on her for having an offspring. No offspring for the wife, no continuation of their genes. 

She said her previous husband emptied out all the money in their joint bank account, thus she wants to keep it separate. I agreed initially, but then pushed for a joint bank account, it fell on faint ears. We, to this day, have yet to pick up the wedding video nor the pictures. She wanted to create a nice mantle piece of both of us from our wedding day. As recently as yesterday, she rolls her eyes. As things got more and more rocky, separate everything was the norm. I also know, since we've kept everything separate, a divorce is much easier. We have equal amounts of savings, however, she makes more than me. On the flip side, my retirement accounts are larger than her's since she just started a few years ago. I do not know why, but yes, she delayed contributing to retirement until 35. She has a pension, so that was her excuse. I figure, if it goes down the divorce route, I suggest we leave things as prior to marriage, so neither retirement plan is affected negatively

She was never good with money. She never had much debt, but I thought her better ways in managing money. I was kind of forced into better ways in managing my money, as I had crazy medical bills to pay off. She's offered to help at times, but I've never taken her money. 

Yes, I've been saving for a child with her since we started talking about a child during our engagement. It's not much, but it is enough for one or two treatments of IVF, if needed. I was hoping to use it for the child's initial expenses (cloths, food, diapers, medical, etc.), but I do not think that there would be anything left. She's stated several times, you do not have to pay for the IVF, my parents will pay for it. I then said, why are we married and why am I here? She brushed it off as I again, misunderstood her statement.

I believe, on one count, she feels it's my fault and I should pay. On the other account, I believe she can lean on her parents to help pay for it. After all, this is what she said to me earlier. She says she's independent, but in reality, she really isn't. 

She wants to use her old stuff that she had around her apt, and get rid of all my stuff. I said we can use some of mine and some of yours. She's wants it all. I couldn't agree with that, so I used the stuff of her's we both liked. As for the stuff of mine she didn't like, I moved to the den. She didn't like it there either, but since I am the only one in the room always, I just said, please, just don't come in and you won't see the decorations. 

I told my parents this (mom and dad were still alive), and they suggested we get new stuff together. She didn't care of it because we have some different tastes. Her claim is she's the wife, and the wife decorates the home. Again, I disagree. BOTH live her, therefore, both can decorate the home. She refuses to pay for a lot. After all, she claims she made a huge sacrifice in moving into my place 45 minutes away from all of her friends and family.

She does help a little with utilities, cable, insurance and food. Every month she transfers some money into my checking account (opened a separate one so there are no claims of commingling separate and marital funds). I do not need her money, I need her love, affection and intimacy. These things she no longer gives. Or, if she does, it's at low spirits.

I know things can't always be 50/50 exactly; that would be silly. But, you know, both people chip in if you are keeping the finances in separate accounts.

I would like to have a child some day when I can find the right woman. I thought it was her, but she doesn't seem stable. I still do not know if she's with me just for an offspring and possible child support, or because she actually loves me. This last few months has certainly added questions in my mind. However, I do not know if I am rushing to judgement and not giving the relationship enough time to "reboot". She blames me because she was running out of time, and she became my wife to have a child. I guess, she thinks/thought I was lucky enough to find someone to marry due to my "conditions". I am not an invalid. However, there are times my issues come out of remission and act up. Since she was so vocal about NO OPIATES or PAIN KILLERS cause they will hurt the sperm, you get a spouse who's in pain and a bit moody during the struggle in controlling pain. 

I just feel, she unloads after work about issues, she cannot handle entertaining with family. How is she going to raise a child? I just feel she wants something that her personality may not support. No, you do not sound heartless at all. You sound very down to earth and logical. 

I appreciate the support and your time you took for writing this post. I guess, the lesson for me, is you really do not know what a person thinks about you without listening to what they say when you're not around. I try to be fair, I do not know if I am a typical no more mr. nice guy as described in the book. I have some of those traits, however, I always feel that I am at a disadvantage in life due to my medical condition. Yes, I can sometimes hide it, but when you live with someone, it's not easy to hide or conceal. She saw me at my worst, stood by me, but now realizes it was the wrong decision. She's said several times to her mom, I should had left. Yet, to me, she doesn't want to leave. Remember, it's not in her best interest to be divorced for a second time and childless at 41. She can be very cold at times. 

She my partner, but only at her convenience. The lover part is sporadic at best. Yes, I do ALL the cleaning and cooking. Due to my limitations, we have a cleaner come twice a month. Another added expense that is not needed, but she's too tired from work to help.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Just a question that's been nagging me throughout your thread...
> 
> You keep saying that you offered to make a baby while you had medical issues, and she declined, so it's her fault.
> 
> But if you were in that much pain and having that many issues, would you have been capable of helping care for that child?
> 
> Of course it wasn't your fault you were hurting... but was having a baby at that time really a feasible option for your wife? Or would she have been caring for you AND an infant?


I've brought that up too. She claimed her mom and my mom and sister could help. Both from my side said no issues. However, her mom doesn't drive far, so that could be an issue. I can see us getting into a argument after a kid is born stating she's too far from her parents, and we must move. However, since the apt is not in her name, she cannot force me to move. If I sell the apt, then that money become community property and could become part of her's if we divorce. I hate thinking this way, but it's the unfortunate truth.

She just wanted/wants a child. I do not think she was thinking about my feelings. Or, she was using this as an escape goat. Then, when I was cleared by the docs and ready to try, she *****footed around. Now, she doesn't even know if she wants a kid with me she said. So, I do not understand her rationale.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> There are far more issues in play here than just job stress. From your posts, here are some of items I see:
> 
> Your wife is getting / feeling "old". Turning 40 is a BIG deal for many people and she may feel her best years are behind her.
> She was divorced once already. She feels divorced twice will make her undesirable to any new partner.
> She waited long time to conceive.
> She may doubt she is physically able to now. Did she try to have kids in first marriage?
> Her ex husband remarried AND HAS KIDS. That is probably hurting her a lot.
> Probably hates the commute to work. She wants to move closer to the job she hates?? Don't get that one.
> Job stress at work. Why not get another job or transfer within her current employer?
> She does not have a child. (yes, probably guys cannot understand that part.)
> 
> I am not trying to paint a bad picture of her. She has good qualities and I am sure like everyone else you are no saint.
> 
> Have you just talked to her parents, causally with no expectations, about your wife's happiness?? No intervention, but just a talk. Like "______ is not happy. Do you know why and how can we help her...?"
> 
> BTW, your sister and mom are not on YOUR SIDE. They are supporting you in your time of difficulty. There is no her side or his side here. Until you separate or divorce, there is only "OUR SIDE", one side.
> 
> Good luck.


Yes, she's said multiple times she wishes she can turn back the clock. I know the turning 40 is an issue for her. It may or may not be an issue. I certainly do not want a divorce, thus I am trying everything and anything to keep this shattered union together. I am not sure it will work though. I think she has too much resentment towards me and cannot move past it. She or someone else, has convinced her that her husband caused this, not her. She was the loyal supportive wife. The last part, during my issues, yes, she was a loyal, supportive wife. However, I did not cause anything else.

Yes, I am sure, on a subliminal level, the ex having kids is bothering her. However, again, once medical issues were stable, I tried all over again to get her back in the mood. She declined me, not the other way around. Yes, she hates the commute, I agree. Most people hate their commutes. This is a part of life in NJ. She refuses to get another job. Says new jobs are limited because of her skill level and training. Plus, she likes the job, just hates the politics. Yes, she has good qualities. She's very supportive of other people in need. Normally, a great personality, smart and attractive. Am I a saint? No, not by a long shot. Never said I was. No, I haven't. The mother will just give me the riot act on me. I am sure of that. Maybe right on the sis and mom. However, it's what I got, and I appreciate their support in my time of strife.


----------



## OpenWindows

Maybe she wants kids, but she's afraid to have them with you, because she's afraid you won't be very supportive if she struggles. She may have seen some red flags in you that made her reconsider. So she grieves the fact that she wants a kid that she feels she shouldn't have.

You're so analytical, so busy determining cause and effect, right and wrong... That you may come across as cold and rigid, not a soft place she can turn to in a time of need or emotional distress.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

OpenWindows said:


> Maybe she wants kids, but she's afraid to have them with you, because she's afraid you won't be very supportive if she struggles. She may have seen some red flags in you that made her reconsider. So she grieves the fact that she wants a kid that she feels she shouldn't have.
> 
> You're so analytical, so busy determining cause and effect, right and wrong... That you may come across as cold and rigid, not a soft place she can turn to in a time of need or emotional distress.


Nothing wrong with being analytical. Besides, I've always been this way. It's never been an issue before. Not sure. If she had doubts, then she should just say she wants out. I do have emotion aside from pain. I am not an android. When she was in need during any of her times, I was by her side 1000%. When she has issues at work, I do listen, and when asked my opinion, I do give it. For birthdays, anniversaries and special events, I've always tried to do something nice. So, I do have a compassionate side.


----------



## 225985

OpenWindows said:


> You're so analytical, so busy determining cause and effect, right and wrong... That you may come across as cold and rigid, not a soft place she can turn to in a time of need or emotional distress.


This ^^^ I agree. Me, same way, which is why I joined TAM last month. I can relate well with OP. But enough about me. 

Now, back to OP. "The mother will just give me the riot act on me. I am sure of that. " Is this an excuse not to try? You will know if worth the time, but your CERTAINTY of this gives me pause for thought. If you cannot just talk to MIL, then mini-intervention will not work. You asked for advice and found nothing that has helped progress towards your goal. You may never find the answer and separation is the only option, maybe. Just stop declining options based on misplaced "sure of that". 

Consider this question. Do you think you will save this marriage? Think hard but only answer it with yes or no. 

You give a very logical / analytical argument for ending the marriage. Heck, after reading all this, we have to ask why are you still married. She wants you to pay for IVF? You offered to give her, many free IVF (via PIV) but she turned them down. IVF does not work with a condom. And she wants her parents to pay for IVF? What's up with that?

One last attempt. If you tried everything you think is right, but she does not respond, then try the OPPOSITE of what you think is right. If you are certain MIL will give you the riot act, do it anyway. At this point, who cares if she does that. If MIL says you are the cause of everything, that wife does not love you and that wife is leaving, then you will have found your answer/solution and can move on.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

It's not an easy yes or no question. There is an effect of emotion to this relationship. Thus, it's not a simple yes or no. If we both work at the relationship, then yes, it can be saved. If one of us continues to work at the relationship and the other complains, but does nothing, then no, it will fail. The MIL, in my opinion, hasn't helped her daughter or our relationship by egging her on for what has happened in the past. The past is the past, the present is now. This is why I feel it would be a fruitless task. I am hoping the MC can give us some clarity.


----------



## Popcorn2015

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Her trying, is once during ovulation, where as I suggested we try more than once. She said once is enough. Then, she pulled away from trying in early 2015. Then, she pulled away from intercourse completely in the Summer 2015. I, not her, got her in to see the best OB-GYNs in the metro area. *Each time, she refused to allow me to come with her. *


Is it possible they've told her, "Sorry honey, the test results say you just can't have kids any more."

Do you know for sure if she's even still ovulating?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

She has a period monthly. I know that much. She said all her numbers are in line. She's yet to take any tests on her eggs as she's afraid of the results. She also doesn't like IVF because of the risks and side effects.


----------



## AVR1962

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Sorry you have to go through this as well. How do you survive in the marriage?


23 years now....I have focused on our children, on my career, on the house, the yard, socializing with friends, everything that makes me happy. It has been a hard and very lonely road. I have never sought other men or had an affair as I believe that is wrong but I also have come to a point that I realize my needs are not being met and I feel I have to move on.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

AVR1962 said:


> 23 years now....I have focused on our children, on my career, on the house, the yard, socializing with friends, everything that makes me happy. It has been a hard and very lonely road. I have never sought other men or had an affair as I believe that is wrong but I also have come to a point that I realize my needs are not being met and I feel I have to move on.


I feel you. I unfortunately see the same thing coming down the pike. I just wish I could fix this, alas, I do not think I can. It may be too late.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Just a small update, I do feel the MIL is not helping things. Wife has had a bad few days at work. I tried to listen and give some advice, which was nearly the same advice as her mom. She's blowing it out of proportion. It will blow over, etc. Tells her mom, I feel so alone. No one to confide to at work. No one to confide to at home. MIL says, you have her and your husband. She says, I am too extreme (even though it's the same thing her mom says in terms of advice), and I do not trust him. She then brought up a time where she was sleeping and eating at night. She told me and we looked around and found a snack under her bed. The next day her mom, dad and her thought about it and said since there was no residue in her mouth, that I put it there. ??? I said we found it together. What are you talking about. There had been times before she was sleep walking and other things as well, but this is the first time there was food under her bed. It was Doritos, and she was worried that that she would choke on them. Anyway, she told her mom, since then, she doesn't trust me. The mom concurred. I just do not know. She pulled me into her room to look around, and yet, it's my fault. Both of them think I am mental, yet when I bring it up to her, she has a completely different opinion towards me. She also complains that I am home a lot, and I only work in shifts and on call. Thus, she doesn't like to be home. That is what on-call means. It has nothing to do with bringing money in, it's that she doesn't like to be home with me apparently. I feel, she has one way of talking and appearing towards me, and another towards her mom. I am trying to get an IC with the therapist to give her my version, and then move towards a MC solution. I just do not know if this will work. The resentment is just very very high towards me. And she constantly tells me she hates her life and what has become of it. I feel horrible, as I feel helpless and just do not know what to do to help her or us.


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## 225985

IMO Your wife has a mental illness that only a medical doctor or psychologist will be able to treat. IMO I doubt this is a MC or IC issue. 

She is not responding to any rational or logical argument and probably never will without treatment. Her situation at work is just mirroring the problem at home, not the cause of the problem at home. You will kill yourself trying to analyze the situation. Stop worrying about getting an IC with the therapist to give her your version. That whole part about the Doritos? Wow. 

You have limited options at this point. You can demand that she seeks treatment or else she moves out. I think more likely she will move out but if I was in your position, I would take the risk. You really have NOTHING to lose. This is beyond your ability to fix by yourself.


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## MJJEAN

The more I read, the more I wonder why you haven't packed this chick up and sent her back to momma hen.


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## TheTruthHurts

Disrespect has to be a boundary and a deal breaker.

Take a step back and think - do I even want to stay with someone who doesn't respect me? What's the best relationship I could possibly hope for with that type of attitude?

I think you have your answer and the best you can hope for is what you currently have.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I just feel very guilty that I've allowed the relationship to come to this. I honestly thought I've been doing the best I could and try to give us what I believed we needed in order to have a successful marriage. I also know she is in a depressive state, so I've been just taking it as it's not the woman I've married, it's just the depression talking. However, when I hear the way she speaks about me to her mom, it just kills me inside. Especially, when considering, how supportive she was of me when I was in my time of need. She was there to help me left and right, and this was for a couple of years. It just feels, in my head, that I am turning my back to her in her time of need. That is what I am working on getting over. I feel I may be making a mistake or acting too quickly to rush to judgement. I just feel a lot of guilt and uncertainty in filing for divorce. Logically, it makes little sense to stay in this relationship where neither of us are happy. Emotionally, however, I feel like I've failed as a person, husband, partner and spouse. I just keep on going around and around in my head what the heck did I do wrong?

On one instance, she's said I'm a good guy and very supportive this past year. On another instance (and to her mom), I've been a terrible, unbearable person to live with. She goes back and forth. Yet, other people I speak and interact with on a daily basis do not agree with her later statement. She then says, they don't live with you. I just do not know her way of thinking.

I know it sounds like I am a bit wishy washy, but something that touches so close to my heart, makes it hard for me to make the decision. I hate feeling this way, as I feel I am going to regret the decision one way or another. Basically, a catch-22. I stay unhappy in this relationship, or I regret asking for a divorce and giving her the papers. I just do not see where I can win. It's basically deciding between the lesser of the two evils.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I stay unhappy in this relationship, or I regret asking for a divorce and giving her the papers.


Those are not your only two options, but as long as you continue to feel guilt and think that you are responsible for her mental state, nothing will change and you* and her* will continue to be unhappy. 

Take this to the extreme. If you knew for sure that your wife would be happy and no longer depressed if you divorced her, would you do it?

If you want to feel guilty, feel guilty about not taking extreme actions to change this situation. Did you try the mini-intervention? Did you demand she get treatment or have her move out (separate, not divorce. The plan would be for separation with eventual reconciliation)? If she refuses treatment but chooses separation then it is her choice, not you giving her divorce papers. 

I am so sorry you are in this position.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Those are not your only two options, but as long as you continue to feel guilt and think that you are responsible for her mental state, nothing will change and you* and her* will continue to be unhappy.
> 
> Take this to the extreme. If you knew for sure that your wife would be happy and no longer depressed if you divorced her, would you do it?
> 
> If you want to feel guilty, feel guilty about not taking extreme actions to change this situation. Did you try the mini-intervention? Did you demand she get treatment or have her move out (separate, not divorce. The plan would be for separation with eventual reconciliation)? If she refuses treatment but chooses separation then it is her choice, not you giving her divorce papers.
> 
> I am so sorry you are in this position.


If it would make her happy, then yes, I will start or agree to the divorce, no question. Yes, she is receiving treatment via the IC. So, technically, she is trying to correct herself. However, I do not think it is working. Or, since it is only a few weeks, it takes more time. I didn't go through the mini-intervention route due to the reasons why I described a couple of weeks ago. I do not feel that would be a fruitful endeavor. It would make things worse, not better. 

I do find it weird that she talks differently to me about me, and to her mom about me. It's very strange. If anything, that may be the straw that breaks the camel's proverbial back for me; so to speak. Sadly and regretfully, it seems it may, in her head, gone too far and cannot be repaired. Hence, less connection, help with chores, intimacy, travel, etc. 

I do not think separation would work, as she doesn't like where she lives now, nor the commute to work. My logical side just says she's done, and she may just be either looking for me to make the move, or eventually build up enough courage to ask for it. Usually, when you ask a spouse if they want to still be in a marriage or if they still want to be married, and they say I don't know, that is considered a no. 

Therefore, as much as I do not want to admit it, it seems like she's done with me and the relationship. Telling her mom that she doesn't trust me, because of Doritos found under her bed is a bit much I think. Once the trust is gone, so is the respect for both the person and relationship. It's just hard to come to terms with. Plus, she's picking on things that make little to no sense. Reason being, in reality, I've never lied to her, thus, she cannot give a real example as to why she doesn't trust me. 

Finally, I do think the fear of the unknown for her is playing a big role. She's 41, possibly will be divorced twice, no family, no siblings, she's scared about her future. I guess, in her mind, I am better than nothing at all. I am not that grim on my future. However, after this whirlwind of a relationship, my trust in another person will be severely challenged. I just wanted to live up to my vows, for better or worse. It seems, I cannot live up to this either. That bothers me. I know it may sound corny, but my word is my bond. Thus, I will go back on my word and vow. Again, this bothers me a lot.


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## TheTruthHurts

MIJ of course you'll have trust issues. Just don't let her unhealthy outlook infect your world view.

With time and distance you'll see more clearly. I suppose things might work out but it's not looking that way now that you see her.

Just keep this in mind. Phrases like "I just wanted to live up to my vows" indicate your having to try too hard. When you finally meet that woman who just adores you, your trust issues will fade.

Keep working on yourself and read up on these threads about what other women are seeking from their H but not getting. It's kind of like a set of cheat codes for operating women. If you can keep working on your insight, empathy, verbal communication, conviction, inner strength, joy, smile, warmth, etc. you will be able to find a woman who does adore you.

I got lucky 30+ years ago - W and I were coupled at a college party for games. I was hooked on her and she on me at that point. I never would have picked her but it would have been my loss. Sometimes the sweet kind souls aren't visible to testosterone drenched males.

This site is full of BS who come to believe all spouses will break your heart. It's just not true. There are lots of good people out there.

Keep us posted


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## 225985

MIJ, Do you think W would be willing to watch a movie with you? Rent (stream online) the movie "Fireproof" from Amazon for $3.99 or buy the DVD for $4.99. Watch it with your wife when you have no distractions and when she is one of her better moods. You need to break the cycle of unhappiness. The movie will not cure your problems but may start a discussion from her. You can search TAM for "Fireproof" and read some threads from past years about this movie and the Love Dare.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Doubt it highly. She's not a religious person at all. In addition, she doesn't like mushy movies. I've tried to take her to other love or romantic movies, no luck. I like them, however. I saw the trailer, and ironically, I already do that stuff. Make special dinners, send flowers or chocolates to her work, etc. It's never reciprocated. When we were first dating, and even in our first year or so of marriage, she did some things, but that has ceased. She's too tired to cook any day of the week. She had a week off, too tired to cook. So, as normal, I cooked. I do not mind cooking, it is just it would be nice if someone would cook for me once in a while. She asked last year, where would I like to go for my birthday dinner, I said, I'd rather have her cook me a meal instead. It's made with love, so it's worth so much more to me. She declined, she offered to take me to a steakhouse, I just passed and went to my den. A year earlier, she would had done this for me. I was hurt by that, that is all. It just feels she puts ZERO effort in the relationship. Of course, if you ask her, she says she puts in a lot. What's a lot? She moved into my home and has a 45 min - hour commute (she knew this ahead of time.). 

She had a really bad Monday at work this week. On Tuesday, I texted her at around 11am to see if she's okay. No response. She came home and asked if she got my text. She said yes, but was so busy, she couldn't reply. You couldn't reply at the end of work? Before you got into the car and drove home? She said sorry, and then texted me when she sat down at table for dinner. Seriously, it's like no respect. I just walked away.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Doubt it highly. * She's not a religious person at all. * In addition, she doesn't like mushy movies. I've tried to take her to other love or romantic movies, no luck. I like them, however. I saw the trailer, and ironically,* I already do that stuff. Make special dinners, send flowers or chocolates to her work, etc. It's never reciprocated. When we were first dating, and even in our first year or so of marriage, she did some things, but that has ceased. She's too tired to cook any day of the week. She had a week off, too tired to cook. So, as normal, I cooked. I do not mind cooking, it is just it would be nice if someone would cook for me once in a while. She asked last year, where would I like to go for my birthday dinner, I said, I'd rather have her cook me a meal instead. It's made with love, so it's worth so much more to me. She declined, she offered to take me to a steakhouse,* I just passed and went to my den. *A year earlier, she would had done this for me. I was hurt by that, that is all. It just feels she puts ZERO effort in the relationship. Of course, if you ask her, she says she puts in a lot. *
> (


I could have written this word for word, which is why I have posted so much to your thread. I can really really sympathize with your situation. I know exactly (well, fairly close) how your feel!! Stay strong my friend.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Sorry to hear. I assumed I was in a unique situation. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but I do appreciate all the people who've added to this thread. It means a lot. I am really not a needy person. I am just trying to figure out the best way to rectify the situation. As strange as it sounds, I find it hard to imagine my life without her. However, I also believe, it will be a trying task to have a child with her. Hence, I am torn as to what to do. Obviously, if just talking about me, I would need to protect myself and file for divorce. However, there is still a part of me who wants this to correct and work out. I just do not know if that is possible.


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## MJJEAN

What you did wrong was marry someone incompatible with you.

What you're doing wrong is letting your emotions cloud your thinking. Go by what you're seeing and hearing from her when she doesn't know you're looking. That's who she is. It may not be who you want her to be, but it's who she is. What she's showing you when on good behavior is nothing more than the bare minimum required to get what she wants. Which is to be married to SOMEONE.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Not sure MJJean, apparently, she wants to leave, just she wants to do it when she's comfortable to do so. I heard the VAR from yesterday today when she was speaking to her mom. The therapist recommended for my wife to leave me and ask for a separation. However, she wants to do in in her time which can be weeks or months from now. Her and the therapist, as well as her mom, think I will take it badly and should be told calmly about this. I guess they all, once again, misread me, as I already completed the divorce papers on Wednesday. I will be sitting her down and giving her the papers in a nice calm demeanor. Stating, we're just not working out. You are not happy, I am not happy, so we should go our separate ways. Apparently, we're two different people the therapist says, and it just will not work out. In addition, the therapist said she thought it was odd for ME to call and make the appointment for the therapist, not her. It shows I am controlling. Keep in mind, she never made the appointments for any of them. She just kept on stalling and stalling. In addition, apparently, I wasn't doing enough to meet her needs in terms of her moving into my place. This was her idea, not mine. Of course, I was supposed to sell my apt., take a huge loss, and buy a new place with her. She, of course, has no money to put down, so again, we'd buy a NEW place with my money (per-marriage), so it would had become a marital property. I do not know. That was weird to say the least. She also said she told the therapist that I thought I was smarter than her, which I never said. In addition, the therapist stated that she was expecting a nervous wreck, not the strong female she see's upon her. Yet, the mom even stated she had been a nervous wreck for the past few months in yesterday's conversation .

I will tell you one thing, they read me wrong. I do not know how a therapist can read another person without even meeting them. I also asked my wife if you told her about me. She said yes. Did you tell her about my medicial issues? No. Did you tell her about accident? No. Did you tell her that you told me to find sex outside the marriage. No. So basically, she told her what she wanted to tell her. Not the complete truth. Just gaslighting and what see wants her to hear. 

This is very said, however, I guess inevitable. Hopefully, she will not put up a fight in the divorce and just sign the no fault divorce papers so I can file them on Monday. I'd prefer to keep lawyers out of this. They are $$$, and I just noted that she will keep what's hers, and I will keep what's mine. I will offer to help pay for her move, but I would really like her to move out in a few days. Any ideas on how to get this done? I really do not want to look at her. Valentine's Day will be really tough as well. What a time to divorce. So very sad. I am in shock. I think it will be a while if ever I would date again. NEVER marry again. It's just not worth the time or effort. Look at what all the time and effort this has cost. For what? I wasted seven years of my life, went through most my savings for us, paid for just about everything. I do not see how any of this has been a good experience. It's just not worth it. No, I am not depressed. Yes, I am upset. However, it is what it is. I guess I should had seen the signs coming since she really never wants to go out. Never wants to travel. Never wants to do anything. Prob. another reason why she never does anything with me with her friends or co-workers. I assure you, she will rebound very fast. Me, I am done. Sometimes, reality just hits you like a brick.

I believe that she will be very surprised when we talk on Sunday. It's really best for both of us for her to just sign the papers and move on. I guess this shows me what good deeds and support mean. I guess for better or worse means nothing these days. Sorry for rambling. I honestly thought we had a chance. I guess I was wrong. 

Regardless, thank you all for your support and guidance. I hope I didn't sound too much like a whiny baby.


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## farsidejunky

It is hard, brother.

But ultimately, as you know, it will be for the best.

Stay strong.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Tobyboy

Don't do anything yet!! 

Verify that your wife is actually attending her session first. 

There's something really wrong going on with your wife. 

Whatever it is, she gave herself away when she put a timeline on when she's going to "pull the trigger". 

Keep VARing. It's coming!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriageInJeopardy

She's attended four sessions already. Called this morning to see if I can start coming to the sessions, and the therapist acted very weird. Saying that I should find another therapist for "marriage counseling", and that she has a bond already with my wife. It would be "unfair" for you to come in to the sessions now as it would be a 2 vs 1 type of deal due to her "alliance" with my wife. Very strange conversation. She's said several times that she's unhappy. I'm miserable as well. Even more so that I actually have to have the talk with her. Life is lonely with or without her. At least, if she's not here anymore, at least I will not have to be bashed constantly by her and her wonderful mom. I still think she instigated a lot of this and turned my wife more negative towards me. Just a horrible fake person.


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## farsidejunky

All of us make our own choices, brother.

You know what you have to do. 

Sorry, brother.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

Sucks but you seem to be on track just fine. Record your meeting with her and maybe even have a witness. She will spin it like you were out of control and threw the papers at her. Be very, very careful from this point on. MIL will pull out all stops once you show her the D papers because the two of them want to control this.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I know. Already have that covered. I do not know why, but I feel extremely guilty in doing this. If I didn't hear the mom and her talking, I would had never believed that they thought and acted this way. I swear, they both talk and text one way to me, but behind my back, do the complete opposite. Why? What's the purpose? The mom, yesterday, was actually encouraging her to divorce me and find someone else to be happy. The wife was the one who then said she'll take her time, offer a separation period, then see what happens. I think she'll be in a bit of shock and will not see this coming. I just do not like doing any of this. However, it feels like it's part of a survival here for me, not her. It's just so sad how this has transpired. 

I plan to break it down by saying we both had the best of intentions, but we just grew apart. Neither of us are happy, and we should just part ways. State the divorce papers are on the counter, and I'd like to go and have them signed/notarized tomorrow.

Question is. What if she says no? I guess then I have to go to an attorney to take it from there? I really want to do this in a civil, peaceful manner. I really do not want it to become adversarial. I feel if attorneys get involved, it will become adversarial. That is never a good thing.

Suggestions? Ideas?


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## tech-novelist

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, Do you think W would be willing to watch a movie with you? Rent (stream online) the movie "Fireproof" from Amazon for $3.99 or buy the DVD for $4.99. Watch it with your wife when you have no distractions and when she is one of her better moods. You need to break the cycle of unhappiness. The movie will not cure your problems but may start a discussion from her. You can search TAM for "Fireproof" and read some threads from past years about this movie and the Love Dare.


I think that is terrible advice. That movie is well known for its plot line, in which the husband has to win the wife back from an EA by prostrating himself to her. I wouldn't be surprised if jld recommended it, but from anyone else I am a bit surprised.


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## jld

_Fireproof?_ Did someone mention _Fireproof?_

Great film. I have been on @farsidejunky to watch it for at least a year now, if not more. I think that kind of humility in a man can work miracles in a marriage.

That does assume the man has a strong presence in his marriage to start with, though.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> _Fireproof?_ Did someone mention _Fireproof?_
> 
> Great film. I have been on @farsidejunky to watch it for at least a year now, if not more. I think that kind of humility in a man can work miracles in a marriage.
> 
> That does assume the man has a strong presence in his marriage to start with, though.


I watched it and tried and done most of these things from the get go when she moved into my apt. At first, she was appreciative. Then, not so much. For example, she, many times, would say, I really do not like waiting for dinner after she comes comes home. I also work a full day, then come home to cook. I stopped cooking a couple of weeks ago. I tried doing it three or four nights a week to save us money from ordering in food. Since it wasn't appreciated, but expected, there was little need to continue it. Her claim is, well you were cooking anyway, what's the difference. Thing is, she only eats certain foods. I eat them too, however, before her, not as much. It's the same three or four meals week, by week. If I made something I liked, she'd usually pass or order out and say thanks for trying. Thus, I had to change everything over to please her food likes. I even did the wine and candle thing. Nothing worked. It was like I was the majority bread winner (even though she earns more than me), cook, and part time housekeeper. This was because it's my apt., so she shouldn't have to help, or she's too tired. Or, she'll do it when she's ready (I.E. she forgets or go to sleep, and the task doesn't get done.). 

A movie is just a movie. Real life doesn't happen that way. At least, in my situation it doesn't.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I watched it and tried and done most of these things from the get go when she moved into my apt. At first, she was appreciative. Then, not so much. For example, she, many times, would say, I really do not like waiting for dinner after she comes comes home. I also work a full day, then come home to cook. I stopped cooking a couple of weeks ago. I tried doing it three or four nights a week to save us money from ordering in food. Since it wasn't appreciated, but expected, there was little need to continue it. Her claim is, well you were cooking anyway, what's the difference. Thing is, she only eats certain foods. I eat them too, however, before her, not as much. It's the same three or four meals week, by week. If I made something I liked, she'd usually pass or order out and say thanks for trying. Thus, I had to change everything over to please her food likes. I even did the wine and candle thing. Nothing worked. It was like I was the majority bread winner (even though she earns more than me), cook, and part time housekeeper. This was because it's my apt., so she shouldn't have to help, or she's too tired. Or, she'll do it when she's ready (I.E. she forgets or go to sleep, and the task doesn't get done.).
> 
> A movie is just a movie. Real life doesn't happen that way. At least, in my situation it doesn't.


I've only read the first and last pages of your thread, but it does not sound like you have ever had a strong presence in your marriage. The sexlessness and your reactivity (evidenced by walking away when your feelings got hurt) are evidence of that, imo.

Your idea to divorce sounds good. Sometimes it just does not work out. No need to feel guilty. Feel like you are doing each of you a favor, instead.

Your next love interest should be a strong, self-confident, nurturing woman. You need someone who can offer love as well as receive it. She will get the bonus of your cooking skills, too.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I've only read the first and last pages of your thread, but it does not sound like you have ever had a strong presence in your marriage. The sexlessness and your reactivity (evidenced by walking away when your feelings got hurt) are evidence of that, imo.
> 
> Your idea to divorce sounds good. Sometimes it just does not work out. No need to feel guilty. Feel like you are doing each of you a favor, instead.
> 
> Your next love interest should be a strong, self-confident, nurturing woman. You need someone who can offer love as well as receive it. She will get the bonus of your cooking skills, too.


Actually, the walking away part is new. I got that from the married sex life book. Just to not argue, and just leave. Before I would let the things she says and does get to me and I'd show a reaction. Now, I show no reaction and just walk away. When we first met, she was a strong, self-confident, nurturing woman. 1.5 years in marriage, she changed. 

I am going through with the unfortunate divorce, however, I am not happy about it. It's something I've tried to avoid at all costs. However, when something is broken and the other spouse really is not trying to fix the issues, I am not sure what else I could do.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Actually, the walking away part is new. I got that from the married sex life book. Just to not argue, and just leave. Before I would let the things she says and does get to me and I'd show a reaction. Now, I show no reaction and just walk away. When we first met, she was a strong, self-confident, nurturing woman. 1.5 years in marriage, she changed.
> 
> I am going through with the unfortunate divorce, however, I am not happy about it. It's something I've tried to avoid at all costs. However, when something is broken and the other spouse really is not trying to fix the issues, I am not sure what else I could do.


It is tough to start the work unilaterally. And it sounds like the counselor is advising divorce, anyway.

I think walking away is reactive. It says she is getting to you. It is not being able to take the heat, and therefore leaving the kitchen.

The alternative is to seek to understand why she is upset. Active listening is helpful in this.


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## 225985

jld said:


> _Fireproof?_ Did someone mention _Fireproof?_
> 
> Great film. I have been on @farsidejunky to watch it for at least a year now, if not more. *I think that kind of humility in a man can work miracles in a marriage.*
> 
> That does assume the man has a strong presence in his marriage to start with, though.


As we learned at the end of the movie, it was main character's MOM that did the love dare with his DAD. So the movie was not only about the man taking action.

My reason for suggesting it to OP was really the plot about breaking the negativity cycle in a marriage. It was a emotional movie and I though perhaps OP's wife might have emotional reaction to it and say something. I did not mean to imply OP needs to do more. Just the opposite. His WIFE needs to do more. Same reason I watched the movie with my W. 

Anyway, OP you are doing the right thing with the divorce. Do not feel guilty. It's what you both want and need. The VAR clearly confirms that. And if you are paying $300 per session for the therapist to tell your wife to divorce you, stop paying for that.


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## jld

blueinbr said:


> As we learned at the end of the movie, it was main character's MOM that did the love dare with his DAD. So the movie was not only about the man taking action.
> 
> My reason for suggesting it to OP was really the plot about breaking the negativity cycle in a marriage. It was a emotional movie and I though perhaps OP's wife might have emotional reaction to it and say something. I did not mean to imply OP needs to do more. Just the opposite. His WIFE needs to do more. *Same reason I watched the movie with my W*.
> 
> Anyway, OP you are doing the right thing with the divorce. Do not feel guilty. It's what you both want and need. The VAR clearly confirms that. And if you are paying $300 per session for the therapist to tell your wife to divorce you, stop paying for that.


You watched it to get your wife to do more? How did she respond?


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## MJJEAN

jld said:


> It is tough to start the work unilaterally. And it sounds like the counselor is advising divorce, anyway.
> *
> I think walking away is reactive. It says she is getting to you. It is not being able to take the heat, and therefore leaving the kitchen.*
> 
> The alternative is to seek to understand why she is upset. Active listening is helpful in this.



I don't see it that way at all. When someone is being a total c*nt, you do NOT engage. That's just feeding the drama monster. You simply silently state "I'm not putting up with this behavior." by walking away.

MIJ, I am sorry you're hurting. 

Have you presented her with the papers yet? If so, how did she take it? 

Hang in there.


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## jld

MJJEAN said:


> I don't see it that way at all. When someone is being a total c*nt, you do NOT engage. That's just feeding the drama monster. You simply silently state "I'm not putting up with this behavior." by walking away.


I understand there are different ways of seeing this, and I think it is useful for sincerely held views to be presented.

It takes great leadership, imo, and great love, to stand in the midst of a storm and be calm and understanding, while not compromising on principles that are in everyone's best interest. It takes great strength on the part of "the rock." And not everyone can be, nor wishes to be, that rock.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I guess, jld, it's hard to fix a marriage if only one is really trying hard. It is also hard to communicate when one says she doesn't know what to do or what she wants. I definitely believe that we're both to blame for the failure of the marriage. Granted, I went through a tough time with my dad's passing as well as all the pain and other meds they put me on during that time about two years ago. The wife says I didn't listen to what the previous therapist said for me to do. I was told to open up and tell her everything that I am doing in my personal life. This I have done. I was also told to sit down and listen to her. Just LISTEN and not be critical. I've done this as well. I do not know what she was told to do. However, according to the VAR, both therapists have told her to leave as we're just on two completely different planets in the way we think. She tells her mom that she's hoping and holding out that there is a glimmer of hope that the marriage can be saved. If not, she'll have to leave on her own time. The therapist called her and agreed that I should not be brought into the sessions. The therapist also stated and re-enforced my wife's actions. In a way, the therapist is trying to give her courage to leave I guess. I find it kind of weird that a therapist is being so one sided and making a judgement call on decisions without hearing the other side. I have not given her the papers or the talk yet as she left for her parent's house this morning. I will give it to her prob. tomorrow. 

I find it very odd that the wife still tells her mom and the therapist about the sleeping situation / living situation, as well as the issues with decorating the apt. I've tried several times to ask her to move back into the master bedroom, she declined. I asked to go shopping with her to redecorate the apt to both of our tastes, she declined. Yet, she tells both her mom and the therapist these are two big issues she cannot understand. I do not know what else I can do.

As for the therapist again, I feel this was a bad idea on my part. I am being blamed for "forcing" my wife to go to therapy, whereas, the therapist, mom and wife believe she should had made the effort to go to therapy without my pushing. The therapist states this is me trying to "control the situation". Yet, the wife was the one who asked me to find a therapist. The therapist also stated that me trying to come to the sessions, was another way for me to find out what's going on, and only for my benefit. Once again, I have no idea how a therapist can make a determination on a couple when she's only heard one side of the story. I asked my wife about this, she was shocked that I called the therapist, but then said I could come. She called back the therapist and said she doesn't want me to come to the sessions at this time. In addition, I mentioned to the wife that I thought the therapists attitude and demeanor was much different to me now when compared to the original times we talked. I asked her what did you say to her? You must had said something to get her against me. Hence, the reason why the therapist stated she already has an allegiance towards my wife, and it would be 2 vs 1 at the sessions. My wife then goes back and tells the therapist kind of what I said as well as her mom. I tell you, there is no confidentiality between my wife and me. I cannot say anything without her at least telling her mom (and now the therapist) about us.

I love the woman very much, however, I will frame the conversation, that because I love her so much, I want what's best for her. Thus, the divorce, since I am no longer capable of making her happy and content in life. I am sure she will spin it a bit differently to her mom and therapist, however, it is what it is. From what I heard on the VARs, and the way she presents herself to me directly are two different people. I do not know if I could trust her again. I know from what she's told her mom, she doesn't trust me. Thus, it's a breakdown in our relationship. Ironically, on Friday, we were discussing something and I showed her proof, and she said, it's okay, I trust you. I said, please, you do not have any trust in me. We both know this. She paused, and I walked away.

Yes, I agree blueinbr, I will no longer pay for sessions with her therapist. She's an "independent" woman who pays "all of her own expenses", she can now add this one to it at 1200.00 a month. 

I never expected this to end this way. I've not been able to sleep for days. It's very upsetting to have to do all of this. However, the old saying, sometimes, Love is just not enough rings true. She may love me, but she's not in love with me. She does somewhat care for me. She has little respect for me, nor does she trust me. This is proof from the VARs. I've never talked negatively about my wife to anyone. I've stated the facts the way I see it, never added anything else. Yet, some how, I am the bad guy. I am the marriage wrecker, etc. I just do not know. It's very upsetting.


----------



## MJJEAN

I rarely recommend counseling. Partially because there are some truly terribad counselors out there and partially because the therapist usually gets a very one sided view before offering advice. But such is life. Your wife's therapist job is to be there for her, not you. 

I find it tragically comedic that a therapist claims you're "controlling" because you saw a serious problem and "pushed" your wife into seeking help. Had you not, would you have then been seen as neglectful?


I wouldn't frame the discussion in terms of "I can't make you happy and I want what's best for you, so...". Too biased. Too much potential for drama. I think you'd be better off going totally neutral. More "The marriage has degraded past the point of no return and it's time to move forward with a divorce."

You can be "the bad guy" and a "homewrecker" for a few months until the divorce is final or you can be married to a woman you don't trust because she is two faced, who sleeps in a separate room, and blames you for her life decisions, thus being "the bad guy" for the rest of your life or until she decides to leave, whichever happens first.


----------



## jld

Yes, if you do not feel it, it is best not to say it. Just saying that the marriage is not working is honest.

It could be that seeing the papers will bring about a change in your wife. It could be that any change may or may not be sustainable. Women sometimes try to hold things together due to fear.

I think your wife's saying she needs to walk away in her own time is revealing. She is not ready to go . . . yet.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Here's what happened today. She asked me if I'd go on a separate session with the therapist, I said no. I wanted couple therapy, not individual therapy. She cannot help me personally. Then, she said, so it's all in my head. I said, listen, you are having personal issues, which include our relationship and work issues. Isn't that the truth? She said yes. Well, the therapist painted a different picture. I said, I swear on my dad's grave I told her you have some personal issues that you need to work out. I've tried to advise, however, we thought a therapist would be of better value. She said the therapist thought she was going to see a woman on the verge of a nervous beakdown. I said, I just told her what I just told you. The call was less than 2 minutes. She said I feel you are losing patience with me. She doesn't know what I want. I said, I want a husband and wife relationship. Instead, I have a friendship, she agreed. I said it may be impossible for us to change the way you are viewing our relationship. She then said, so it is all me, not you. I didn't say that. I made mistakes, however, everything the previous therapist told me to do, I have done. Nothing has changed. She said Rome wasn't built in a day. I said, I do not know if I can make you happy. I asked you if you wanted a divorce, you said you don't know what you want. Usually, when someone doesn't want a divorce, they say no, not I don't know, which means yes. She then says, I am trying to figure things out. I am trying by going to the therapist to help. I do not know what else I can do. I do not know either. However, I do not think the therapist will help. I think you need to look internally to see what you actually want to do here. She then said, I want to continue to see the therapist. She will pay for it moving forward. Chances are, you are going to leave me, and I will grow old, by myself, living with cats and dogs. 

I feel even worse now. 

She talks one way to me, then she's all tough and mighty with her mom and the therapist. Do I owe us more time? Am I pulling the trigger too soon?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> I rarely recommend counseling. Partially because there are some truly terribad counselors out there and partially because the therapist usually gets a very one sided view before offering advice. But such is life. Your wife's therapist job is to be there for her, not you.
> 
> I find it tragically comedic that a therapist claims you're "controlling" because you saw a serious problem and "pushed" your wife into seeking help. Had you not, would you have then been seen as neglectful?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't frame the discussion in terms of "I can't make you happy and I want what's best for you, so...". Too biased. Too much potential for drama. I think you'd be better off going totally neutral. More "The marriage has degraded past the point of no return and it's time to move forward with a divorce."
> 
> You can be "the bad guy" and a "homewrecker" for a few months until the divorce is final or you can be married to a woman you don't trust because she is two faced, who sleeps in a separate room, and blames you for her life decisions, thus being "the bad guy" for the rest of your life or until she decides to leave, whichever happens first.


This woman, cannot be controlled. I honestly only tried to help her. I do not have a control issue. If I had a control issue, believe me, I would had left already. I can't get her to help clean the apt with me, let alone, be intimate. My wife says she likes this one, however, it seems she may like her because she's agreeing with everything my wife is telling her. She's not being objective it seems from what I am hearing and the tidbits my wife tells me. 

Granted, I suggested she move into the other room, but again, that when I was in extreme pain and she was inadvertently kicking and hitting me during sleep. I've must had asked a hundred times to try again, she keeps on refusing. Yet, she complains about it to her mom and the therapist. Same thing with the baby. I now, between me and her, get credit for trying to get her to do the baby thing for the 1.5 years +. However, she refuses. Yet, she complains about that as well to each of them. She blames me for the IVF now. I said, listen, you were 38. Chances are, you would had needed IVF anyway. I offered IVF then, and I offered it now. She then said, well the docs said I was perfect. I just do not know what to do.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Yes, if you do not feel it, it is best not to say it. Just saying that the marriage is not working is honest.
> 
> It could be that seeing the papers will bring about a change in your wife. It could be that any change may or may not be sustainable. Women sometimes try to hold things together due to fear.
> 
> I think your wife's saying she needs to walk away in her own time is revealing. She is not ready to go . . . yet.


Maybe, maybe not. She tells her mom and the therapist, as we know, that she'll leave when she's ready (Posted this on a previous page). Actually, she wants to offer separation then divorce she told her mom. Yet, I have the divorce papers ready. I just do not know if I am making the right decision. For some strange reason, I still love and want to be with this woman. However, I cannot say, by listening to the VARs, that those feelings are 100% the same. Usually, a wife wants to have sex with their husband. Usually, a wife wants to get pregnant, and the husband doesn't have to chase her around.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Here's what happened today. She asked me if I'd go on a separate session with the therapist, I said no. I wanted couple therapy, not individual therapy. She cannot help me personally. Then, she said, so it's all in my head. I said, listen, you are having personal issues, which include our relationship and work issues. Isn't that the truth? She said yes. Well, the therapist painted a different picture. I said, I swear on my dad's grave I told her you have some personal issues that you need to work out. I've tried to advise, however, we thought a therapist would be of better value. She said the therapist thought she was going to see a woman on the verge of a nervous beakdown. I said, I just told her what I just told you. The call was less than 2 minutes. She said I feel you are losing patience with me. She doesn't know what I want. I said, I want a husband and wife relationship. Instead, I have a friendship, she agreed. I said it may be impossible for us to change the way you are viewing our relationship. She then said, so it is all me, not you. I didn't say that. I made mistakes, however, everything the previous therapist told me to do, I have done. Nothing has changed. She said Rome wasn't built in a day. I said, I do not know if I can make you happy. I asked you if you wanted a divorce, you said you don't know what you want. Usually, when someone doesn't want a divorce, they say no, not I don't know, which means yes. She then says, I am trying to figure things out. I am trying by going to the therapist to help. I do not know what else I can do. I do not know either. However, I do not think the therapist will help. I think you need to look internally to see what you actually want to do here. She then said, I want to continue to see the therapist. She will pay for it moving forward. Chances are, you are going to leave me, and I will grow old, by myself, living with cats and dogs.
> 
> I feel even worse now.
> 
> She talks one way to me, then she's all tough and mighty with her mom and the therapist. Do I owe us more time? Am I pulling the trigger too soon?


She talks to her mother and therapist and probably a host of other people one way and to you another way because if she told you to your face, you'd leave and she'd be single and twice divorced. She's currently deciding if being single and twice divorced is more or less miserable than the sham of a marriage she has going with you.

What, exactly, will it take to make you realize she is two faced and a manipulator? The way that whole thing went down today is fairly classic. She got to make you feel bad and now you'll stay exactly where she wants you unless/or until she decides she wants to move on. She plays the poor pitiful me, you lack conviction, and she gets to stay in the drivers seat because you lack the will to actually do something beyond have wishy-washy and pointless conversations.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Maybe, maybe not. She tells her mom and the therapist, as we know, that she'll leave when she's ready (Posted this on a previous page). Actually, she wants to offer separation then divorce she told her mom. Yet, I have the divorce papers ready. I just do not know if I am making the right decision. For some strange reason, I still love and want to be with this woman. However, I cannot say, by listening to the VARs, that those feelings are 100% the same. *Usually, a wife wants to have sex with their husband. Usually, a wife wants to get pregnant, and the husband doesn't have to chase her around.*


Yep, I agree with the bolded. 

Are you sure you are not controlling at all? Isn't planting VARs controlling?


----------



## jld

MJJEAN said:


> She talks to her mother and therapist and probably a host of other people one way and to you another way because if she told you to your face, you'd leave and she'd be single and twice divorced. She's currently deciding if being single and twice divorced is more or less miserable than the sham of a marriage she has going with you.
> 
> What, exactly, will it take to make you realize she is two faced and a manipulator? The way that whole thing went down today is fairly classic. She got to make you feel bad and now you'll stay exactly where she wants you unless/or until she decides she wants to move on. She plays the poor pitiful me, you lack conviction, and she gets to stay in the drivers seat because you lack the will to actually do something beyond have wishy-washy and pointless conversations.


I don't think she is trying to upset him. She just sounds kind of lost, at least to me.


----------



## MJJEAN

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> This woman, cannot be controlled. I honestly only tried to help her. I do not have a control issue. If I had a control issue, believe me, I would had left already. I can't get her to help clean the apt with me, let alone, be intimate. My wife says she likes this one, however, it seems she may like her because she's agreeing with everything my wife is telling her. She's not being objective it seems from what I am hearing and the tidbits my wife tells me.
> 
> Granted, I suggested she move into the other room, but again, that when I was in extreme pain and she was inadvertently kicking and hitting me during sleep. I've must had asked a hundred times to try again, she keeps on refusing. Yet, she complains about it to her mom and the therapist. Same thing with the baby. I now, between me and her, get credit for trying to get her to do the baby thing for the 1.5 years +. However, she refuses. Yet, she complains about that as well to each of them. She blames me for the IVF now. I said, listen, you were 38. Chances are, you would had needed IVF anyway. I offered IVF then, and I offered it now. She then said, well the docs said I was perfect. I just do not know what to do.



HINT: She's full of shyte.

Want to know how I know? The evidence of her actions, not words.

Women who want to get pregnant have a LOT of sex with their husbands. To the point where a lot of men complain that they feel like sex slave sperm donors and they're actually sick of screwing for procreation.

Head over to any infertility/TTC forum and see what women who actually want children do in order to have children. Women who want to get pregnant for real go to great lengths in an attempt to make that happen.

Just like your wife tells lies and partial truths to people about you and your relationship, I highly suspect she's doing the same to you regarding TTC and having a baby.

If she actually wanted a baby as much as she claims to, she'd have been seriously doing something about it the whole time.

Yeah, yeah, I know. She has her excuses and all that, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words. She can claim she really wants a child until she's blue in the face, but every time you have tried to make that happen she has had some excuse as to why it couldn't.

Actions, not words.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> Isn't planting VARs controlling?


No, not at all. If OP used the VAR information to modify her behavior or attack her then yes, but he is using the VAR to modify HIS behavior.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It's time.

If there is anything left to save, it is on HER to save it.

I don't think you're pulling the trigger to fast given her lack of respect.

Show her and file IMO. Sucks but I see no other alternatives.


Personally if I had doubts I would be 100% direct. "I know you talk negatively about me to your mother and therapist behind my back. I won't stay married to someone who doesn't respect and admire me." And no matter what the argument from her was, I'd never reveal my sources, and I'd never back down, saying "you can stop lying - we both know it's true". Complete wall of certainty and resolve. If there's anything left she would have to come completely clean.

But at this point I would be so pissed at her and her mom that I would file and not be concerned with her feelings.


----------



## Chaparral

You were angry the therapist was taking her side without ever talking to you. Now you forego the opportunity to go see her. This makes no sense if you actually would like to save the marriage. It would also let you see if the therapist is really saying what your wife is telling her mother.

If your wife is gaslighting the therapist, you should go see her. Simply state your case and stand firm.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> HINT: She's full of shyte.
> 
> Want to know how I know? The evidence of her actions, not words.
> 
> Women who want to get pregnant have a LOT of sex with their husbands. To the point where a lot of men complain that they feel like sex slave sperm donors and they're actually sick of screwing for procreation.
> 
> Head over to any infertility/TTC forum and see what women who actually want children do in order to have children. Women who want to get pregnant for real go to great lengths in an attempt to make that happen.
> 
> Just like your wife tells lies and partial truths to people about you and your relationship, I highly suspect she's doing the same to you regarding TTC and having a baby.
> 
> If she actually wanted a baby as much as she claims to, she'd have been seriously doing something about it the whole time.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, I know. She has her excuses and all that, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words. She can claim she really wants a child until she's blue in the face, but every time you have tried to make that happen she has had some excuse as to why it couldn't.
> 
> Actions, not words.


You have a point here. She says, yes, we dd start trying, but then, she says we stopped because of my medical issues and timing or something. I said that makes no sense. She then gets heated when I asked for an example, and starts getting upset and angry. 



Chaparral said:


> You were angry the therapist was taking her side without ever talking to you. Now you forego the opportunity to go see her. This makes no sense if you actually would like to save the marriage. It would also let you see if the therapist is really saying what your wife is telling her mother.
> 
> If your wife is gaslighting the therapist, you should go see her. Simply state your case and stand firm.


The therapist stated to me that we CANNOT see her together. She said she'd see me separately, however, there would be NO confidentiality. In addition, she would share everything I said to her with my wife, which I am fine with. However, she will NOT share anything that my wife has told her about anything. Therefore, the point of seeing her is useless aside from draining funds from my bank account.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> She talks to her mother and therapist and probably a host of other people one way and to you another way because if she told you to your face, you'd leave and she'd be single and twice divorced. She's currently deciding if being single and twice divorced is more or less miserable than the sham of a marriage she has going with you.
> 
> What, exactly, will it take to make you realize she is two faced and a manipulator? The way that whole thing went down today is fairly classic. She got to make you feel bad and now you'll stay exactly where she wants you unless/or until she decides she wants to move on. She plays the poor pitiful me, you lack conviction, and she gets to stay in the drivers seat because you lack the will to actually do something beyond have wishy-washy and pointless conversations.


I am seeing that, as I ask questions to see how she responds when I know what she already said about the question to her mom and the therapist (VAR). It's a completely different answer. Example. She says she doesn't trust me. To her mom, she uses the Doritos incident. However, to me, she said I didn't tell her when I was going to a doctor until after I went. My reasoning, was since she wasn't going, I didn't see the need to tell her. Thus, I told her when I came back what happened. She considers that withholding information, thus a form of lying. I do not get that, but, I then asked, anything else? She said no. Just an example. 



jld said:


> Yep, I agree with the bolded.
> 
> Are you sure you are not controlling at all? Isn't planting VARs controlling?





jld said:


> I don't think she is trying to upset him. She just sounds kind of lost, at least to me.


I used the VARs to see what she's really thinking. Originally, confirming that she's not cheating on me. Now, to actually get to know what she really thinks about me and us. I do not see how I am controlling by trying to figure out what the issues are. Yet, all the issues she brings up were old issues when I was going through the family death and my medical issues. Nothing new. I said, aren't I doing what the previous therapist that we went to said to do? She says yes. Is there anything I am doing wrong or something you do not like that currently that I should address? She said no. I then said, I am flying blind here. You do not like to talk to me about things like this. How are we going to fix them if we do not address them together? She then said that is what the therapist is for. However, she tells a different story to her mom and the therapist. I'd bet you on that. We'll find out on the next VAR, but I am telling you, it will be gaslighted into her favorable light.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> It's time.
> 
> If there is anything left to save, it is on HER to save it.
> 
> I don't think you're pulling the trigger to fast given her lack of respect.
> 
> Show her and file IMO. Sucks but I see no other alternatives.
> 
> 
> Personally if I had doubts I would be 100% direct. "I know you talk negatively about me to your mother and therapist behind my back. I won't stay married to someone who doesn't respect and admire me." And no matter what the argument from her was, I'd never reveal my sources, and I'd never back down, saying "you can stop lying - we both know it's true". Complete wall of certainty and resolve. If there's anything left she would have to come completely clean.
> 
> But at this point I would be so pissed at her and her mom that I would file and not be concerned with her feelings.


Building up to it. I just feel bad about it, and part of me feels like I am being too hard on her. She even said today after our conversation, your very logical and direct, no emotion. I said seriously? I am trying to get you to tell me what you see is wrong and how we can fix our relationship. How is that unemotional? She just walked out of room and asked to be alone.. Again, I feel like it is only me trying to find a solution here, aside from divorce. Sadly, I do not think there is one. I may be delaying the inevitable. She used the term again to consider finding another woman to meet your sexual needs. I said do you want me to? She said no, but I do not know what you want me to do.


----------



## jld

OP, if the only way you can find out what she is thinking is through a VAR, I think it is time to give her the divorce papers. 

If your positions were switched, would you not agree?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Forgot to mention, I asked my wife if I can join her on her sessions on Thursday, she said no problem. Therapist called her, she then said no, not at this time, maybe down the road. Very strange. In addition, she doesn't think she can continue seeing her since the therapist is so expensive. She said I shouldn't pay anymore, so she will instead. However, she also stated that she doesn't think she can afford much more of her either (yet, she's not paid for any sessions yet).


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> OP, if the only way you can find out what she is thinking is through a VAR, I think it is time to give her the divorce papers.
> 
> If your positions were switched, would you not agree?


Yes, just feel like I am giving up on her and us. I know it is corny. We've been through so much. It seemed before this, everything was working. Then, it just blew out of proportion in the middle of 2015. It hasn't been the same since. I just feel, since she was by my side in my time of need, that I am turning my back on her time of need. 

Does that make sense? Or am I just hanging on to something that has left a long long time ago, and will never return?


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yes, just feel like I am giving up on her and us. I know it is corny. We've been through so much. It seemed before this, everything was working. Then, it just blew out of proportion in the middle of 2015. It hasn't been the same since. I just feel, since she was by my side in my time of need, that I am turning my back on her time of need.
> 
> Does that make sense? Or am I just hanging on to something that has left a long long time ago, and will never return?


Well, to me, relationships should be completely honest. If the only way I could get honesty from my partner would be to VAR him, I would hang it up.


----------



## Chaparral

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> You have a point here. She says, yes, we dd start trying, but then, she says we stopped because of my medical issues and timing or something. I said that makes no sense. She then gets heated when I asked for an example, and starts getting upset and angry.
> 
> 
> 
> The therapist stated to me that we CANNOT see her together. She said she'd see me separately, however, there would be NO confidentiality. In addition, she would share everything I said to her with my wife, which I am fine with. However, she will NOT share anything that my wife has told her about anything. Therefore, the point of seeing her is useless aside from draining funds from my bank account.


I disagree. Go see her then listen to see what you get on the VAR.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> The therapist stated to me that we CANNOT see her together. She said she'd see me separately, however, *there would be NO confidentiality.*


That is a violation of state law and this therapist should be reported to the state licensing board. There are exceptions if abuse, or threat to self or other person. But that does not apply to your case.

This therapist is terrible and appears to have a personal agenda. You will not get anywhere with her and you should stop paying for your wife's therapy. This therapist is toxic to you and your marriage.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> That is a violation of state law and this therapist should be reported to the state licensing board. There are exceptions if abuse, or threat to self or other person. But that does not apply to your case.
> 
> This therapist is terrible and appears to have a personal agenda. You will not get anywhere with her and you should stop paying for your wife's therapy. This therapist is toxic to you and your marriage.


I concur. I do not know how a therapist can say she will see you, but then offer no confidentiality towards you. Whereas, she'd share everything say to my wife. Then again, why not change this to couples therapy? Seems like an idea to me. But, no, she and the wife agreed to keep it one on one with her. I do not think she's helping her at all. On one side, she says, the wife says she doesn't give her feedback, just listens. Then, on the VARs, she tells her mom that we're too different. He'll never have a baby with you. He'll never leave. Thus, you should divorce him. Then, explain how she should talk to me about it. Hmm, very weird. So much for being neutral. I was told, after the fact, that I should had insisted on couples counselling first. However, the therapist stated this was the best way to start it off. Then, I would come in during the later sessions with my wife. Which, again, my wife declined for me to join on Friday when she called the therapist. Again, very weird. I see how the therapist is trying to build confidence in my wife, however, I do not see how it's helping us. Nonetheless, I said I cannot keep on paying 300.00 a session. Especially since I do not even get to go. But, I can spend 300 per two sessions, and have no confidentiality??? Who does she think I am? Bill Gates? Geez, I swear, I think she's hustling my wife. If I said that, she'd then report that back to the mom and the therapist. Which both, would say, I do not like her seeing the therapist because lack of control. No. I do not like this because it is not helping us. The wife said she will take the payments over, however, doesn't know how much she can afford to keep her either. The wife requested more time before I consider divorce. As she see's "I am very frustrated with the situation". I know it was not the logical thing to do. However, she seems utterly confused about the whole situation. As a good Christian, I want to give us all the opportunities to repair our relationship. However, if I was a betting man, I wouldn't like the odds. It's such a shame though. Such a shame. On a good note, she's not said anything bad about me since Friday to her mom. 0


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> The wife requested more time before I consider divorce.


You already are considering divorce. Did your wife mean she needs more time (to make her exit under her terms) before you file for divorce? When she requested more time, did she say why she wanted more time or give any indication that something will happen to change your mind. Most other people who really wanted to remain married would have said something more. 

I know this all hurts badly. But be honest with yourself. Do you think waiting to file will change the outcome? Do you see any scenario that will change what you know needs to be done?

Remember that filing for divorce means only that you intend to divorce. You can always withdraw the petition later if you decide.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

She's said she's working through things in her head and wants to be a better wife. She's trying to figure things out. An uncontested divorce is usually granted within 30 days here in NJ. There would be little time to withdraw it. I am just trying to give the relationship what it needs. A few weeks wouldn't matter. If things are still at a stand still, then I will follow through with the divorce papers. I just feel she is trying and let's just see how this plays out over the next few weeks. If there's no improvement by mid-March, then I will present the papers and file.


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## TheTruthHurts

How long is a contested D in NJ?

In many places where TAM members live it can take months or even a year if I've read the threads correctly. That's why people file in those places - it starts a clock running and shows you're serious.

I'm very surprised by the 30 day window


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## MarriageInJeopardy

An uncontested divorce in NJ is 30 - 60 days. A contested divorce can be however long until there a settlement or if it goes to trial.


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## TheTruthHurts

Out of curiosity - why do you think she'd walk away and not contest it?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I need her to go with me to a notary to get each page signed. If we go through the normal route with attorneys and such, that's a lot of $$$. In terms of assets, aside from retirement, she has more than me. In retirement, I have more than her only because I started earlier. She, however, has a juicy vested pension. We have no joint accounts, and everything has been separate. Nothing at the apt was in her name. Any money she gave me was placed in a new separate bank account. I wrote out the uncontested divorce where we keep with what we each had before we got into the marriage. Not messy or stressful. Sign and be done. It cannot get anymore simple than that. Since her and her mom were talking about divorce, and how she, when she's ready, will sit me down and suggest separation. Therefore, I do not think, but am not sure, she'd fight me on it. She may. It's doubtful though. The marriage is under 3 years. Traditionally, should it go to trial or mediation, they tend to bring the couple back to where they were before the marriage financially. The apt was never in her name. The value has gone down, not up. So there is not community property there. The only thing, maybe, would be the retirement account. Thus, I listed in the documents we're keeping them separate. Since she has a pension, it's worth much more than my 401k. I do not think, if it got to that, she'd make it difficult. It would make little sense to do so.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

So, I just finished listening to today's VAR. The wife said to the mom that I've been very nice and wants to work things out. She seems to be on the fence. The mom says he needs to know what he's done wrong and admit to it. She didn't respond. However, I asked her on Saturday, what am I doing currently that is wrong, she says nothing. I just do not get it. I must be missing something. 

I can also say, she talks all nice and sweet to me, but much harder and bolder with her mom about me.

I swear, I think she handles each person differently. It's very strange. I even planned a nice VD dinner, but she didn't like the location of the place. Her mom told her to tell me, if you want to take me out, I want to go here, not there. ??? Am I missing something? I try to be romantic and do something nice, but because she has to work the next day, and because VD is on a Sunday, she doesn't want to go too far away. 

Is it normal that a 41 year old talks about us (everything except sex) to her 71 year old mom? Maybe some women can respond to this. I always thought a couple is between the two in the relationship, not their parents as well. Maybe I am wrong.


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## TheTruthHurts

Wrong. When we dated my W then GF called her dad three times a day and her mom probably the same. 30 years later at least daily. Now both deceased RIP.

It's normal for a daughter to always be the little girl.

Problem is - mom is toxic and DD is two faced.

I don't know what borderline personality is... but I've heard others mention it... could she just be like that and "be" whoever she has to be depending on the audience??


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wrong. When we dated my W then GF called her dad three times a day and her mom probably the same. 30 years later at least daily. Now both deceased RIP.
> 
> It's normal for a daughter to always be the little girl.
> 
> Problem is - mom is toxic and DD is two faced.
> 
> I don't know what borderline personality is... but I've heard others mention it... could she just be like that and "be" whoever she has to be depending on the audience??


Wow. Didn't know that. I agree, the mom is toxic and wishy-washy. She even asked my wife, if you guys divorce, do we still celebrate birthday's together? I mean, geez. The kicker is, now my mom thinks divorcing the wife is a bit extreme and I maybe I am overreacting to what I heard. Reason being, they got her both a nice thoughtful gift for her birthday two weeks ago. She states, how could two people go all out and get these two thoughtful things and still talk the way you said.

I guess they act like chameleons in a way. Change their colors to fit the person, mood and situation? That is something I really am concerned with. Which woman do I have as my wife? The one presented to me, or the one presented to her mom? Maybe I am too naive.


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## 225985

MIJ, FWIW it is common for someone to talk bolder on the phone with a friend of family versus what she tells you. You are right, MIL is toxic to your marriage. 

Did you start the divorce discussion with W recently? You said that "The wife requested more time before I consider divorce". Did she bring the subject up or did you? I hope you did. 

In any case, you both should agree on some timeline. If for example, nothing changes in 60 days or if no progress is made in 60 days, then you both will agree to separation and amicable divorce. Without some timing or "deadline", this situation can continue indefinitely. And you should agree on what constitutes "progress". 

And please please stop paying for her $300 therapist visits during which the "therapist" keeps telling your wife to leave you. If DW wants the therapy, she can pay for it from her larger assets.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Yes, I brought it up. Reason being, I said you are not happy, I am not happy. I want you to be happy, however, I am not sure if I can make you happy. You are a smart, beautiful woman with a great personality. You will have no problem finding someone more suitable to you. She said, no I am not. I will be alone with cats for the rest of my life (not sure why she said cats, as she hates cats). No one would want me. I am willing to work with you on us, but we need to actually work on it. She said, it goes both ways. I said I am. What am I not doing to your approval? She said I don't know. She then said she's trying too. I see. I was about to say, you're not doing anything but going to therapy. When I wanted to go as well with you, you called the therapist and said NO. But I didn't. I then said we need to be in the master bedroom together. Be intimate. Etc. She doesn't know. She says we'll see. She says it seems you are getting frustrated with me. I am sorry I cannot meet your sexual needs, maybe you should find another woman who can. I said, do you want me to? She turned white and screamed NO. Then why did you say that. Listen, do you want me to move out. I paused and then said, I'd rather try to repair the relationship. However, you have so much resentment towards me, for something I really had little control over, I do not know if this is possible. She said, you had control. You chose to not take action. I said how? Did I cause my dad's death? Did I cause my hospital and ER stays? No answer.

If, within a month, she isn't able to come around and treat this like a marriage, I will, unfortunately, have to say we should divorce (no separation. Trust me when I say I feel separated already). I will say, listen, you will not sleep in the same bed as me. You will not be intimate with me. You will not have a child with me. There really isn't a reason to still be married. I'd like to get these papers signed by both of us ASAP so I can file and you will then be a free woman.

I stopped paying for this therapist last week. She offered to take over the payments, however, she doesn't know if she will still go due to the price. 

Yes, my mom and my sister said the same thing as you have with the talking to friends and family. I, however, do not do that to my spouse. I would hope the same. I guess, I was wrong. They do not get the VARs either. They do not think it is right for me to VAR her. They also both suggest a little more time and working it out. Saying, it cannot be that bad. No, I've not told them we've not been intimate for so long, nor did I tell them she told me to find sex somewhere else. That's a bit weird to talk to female members of the family about. Just too embarrassed.


----------



## jld

You need to learn active listening.


----------



## jld

She needs to feel safe to be honest with you. 

Think of how safe she feels with her mom. Try to provide that same level of safety.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> You need to learn active listening.


I listen fine. Am I perfect, no, but I am a pretty good listener. However, my crap meter is overflowing right now.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I listen fine. Am I perfect, no, but I am a pretty good listener. However, my crap meter is overflowing right now.


And this attitude is part of your problem.

Look up Active Listening.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I assure you, I've been trying this. She keeps on telling me, I do not trust anyone. Only myself and my parents. That is all. I've always been like that. 

With that said, I do not know what else I can say, do or try. I've been working on the trust thing with her for years. There's been no breakthrough. I share everything, she shares only what she wants to share. Not exactly equal playing field.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> And this attitude is part of your problem.
> 
> Look up Active Listening.


Already did that. Yes, I can see at one time, over two years ago, I wasn't an active listener. I've been an active listener for a while now. I do actually think before I talk.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Already did that. Yes, I can see at one time, over two years ago, I wasn't an active listener. I've been an active listener for a while now. I do actually think before I talk.


Look at your last few posts on your responses to her. Did you listen actively?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I paraphrase on TAM.


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## jld

Just think about it.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Just think about it.


I honestly always think very carefully on what I say to my wife. Over the past few months, even more than ever. I really want to be that support blanket for her when she needs it, however, she refuses to let me in. She doesn't even let her father in. The mother/daughter relationship is extremely close.

Example. About a year ago it she was turning 40. I wanted to throw a party for her. I told her mom, and we'd run the party together. She then told me she doesn't want a party. Then, she changed her mind a few weeks later. I was kicked out of the planning of the party and the MIL took over the entire planning and hosting. Who does that? It's just very weird.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I honestly always think very carefully on what I say to my wife. Over the past few months, even more than ever. I really want to be that support blanket for her when she needs it, however, she refuses to let me in. She doesn't even let her father in. The mother/daughter relationship is extremely close.
> 
> Example. About a year ago it she was turning 40. I wanted to throw a party for her. I told her mom, and we'd run the party together. She then told me she doesn't want a party. Then, she changed her mind a few weeks later. I was kicked out of the planning of the party and the MIL took over the entire planning and hosting. Who does that? It's just very weird.


I feel like you have not even read my last few posts to you.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I feel like you have not even read my last few posts to you.


I tried to respond to all of them the best as possible. I get what you are saying, however, I've tried it all.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've tried it all.


I doubt it.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I doubt it.


Sorry I've given you that impression.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Sorry I've given you that impression.


I am sorry your marriage is in the state it is in.

And I am trying to help you change that.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I am sorry your marriage is in the state it is in.
> 
> And I am trying to help you change that.


And I appreciate your posts as well as everyone elses. I've tried everything that's been posted. In the end, if only one person is putting in effort into the relationship, it will end up a failure. I will agree, she probably checked out a while ago. I noticed it and had been working on it since then. However, all she says is I DON'T KNOW. It's hard to work off I DON'T KNOW:

what I I want
have a child with you
have a relationship with you
live with you
spend the rest of my life with you
divorce you
love you
be with you
Etc.

All she says is she's trying. What's she trying, is I do not know what. But, in her head, she's trying and I am doing everything wrong. I ask, what am I doing wrong. Nothing. Therefore, I now do not know what to do.


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## jld

Active listening.

Go back to your last post describing your conversation and rewrite your responses in active listening mode.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Active listening.
> 
> Go back to your last post describing your conversation and rewrite your responses in active listening mode.


The convo was near an hour long and it was like pulling teeth. Everything I asked, I mostly received one of two answers. I am trying the best I can or I do not know. Some examples. I really want you to be happy, and I do not make you happy. What can I do to make you happy and repair the relationship? I do not know. That is why I am seeing a therapist to figure out what is going on. Is there anything I am doing wrong or upsetting you right now? No. You've been really good for the last few months. Can we try to sleep in the same bed? Ehh, umm, I do not know. We'll see. It takes time for me to comfortable. What can I do to help you? I don't know. Can we start trying for a baby? I don't know. Can we at least start being intimate? Sorry, I just don't feel it. If you need sex so bad, you may want to find it some where else. Do you want me to? No. Why say that then? I don't know what to say or do. I am trying. She asks, do you want me to leave? I really have no place to go. I said, I'd rather work on our relationship. No answer. She asks, do I want a divorce? No, however, if we are unable to act like husband and wife, there really is no point in being married. No answer. We're basically acting like friends, not husband and wife. She agrees. How do we fix this and get us back to acting like husband and wife? I don't know.

That's about the sum of it.


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## jld

Try repeating her words back to her, listening carefully and without pressure to her responses.

For most people, hearing their own words repeated back to them makes them feel heard, and maybe even understood. It is validation of their feelings, and can make them feel safer going deeper into those feelings.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Try repeating her words back to her, listening carefully and without pressure to her responses.
> 
> For most people, hearing their own words repeated back to them makes them feel heard, and maybe even understood. It is validation of their feelings, and can make them feel safer going deeper into those feelings.


I've tried asked why don't you know? She then replies, I do not know why I do not know. That is why I am seeing the therapist. See what I mean? It's a loop. I am no saint, however, I've tried everything. Then she tells the therapist/mom her version, albeit a gaslighted version, so they feel she's the innocent victim and I have to change. Yet, she will not tell me what she doesn't like. Again, she says, I've been great, excellent and wonderful. Then, other days, she says you've been horrible to deal with for the last year. So, which is it? I don't know what to say. That's what I get.


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## jld

You have not tried everything.

Repeat her words back to her, in a genuinely interested, patient manner.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yes, I brought it up. Reason being, I said you are not happy, I am not happy. I want you to be happy, however, I am not sure if I can make you happy. You are a smart, beautiful woman with a great personality. You will have no problem finding someone more suitable to you. She said, no I am not. I will be alone with cats for the rest of my life (not sure why she said cats, as she hates cats). No one would want me. I am willing to work with you on us, but we need to actually work on it. She said, it goes both ways. I said I am. What am I not doing to your approval? She said I don't know. She then said she's trying too. I see. I was about to say, you're not doing anything but going to therapy. When I wanted to go as well with you, you called the therapist and said NO. But I didn't. I then said we need to be in the master bedroom together. Be intimate. Etc. She doesn't know. She says we'll see. She says it seems you are getting frustrated with me. I am sorry I cannot meet your sexual needs, maybe you should find another woman who can. I said, do you want me to? She turned white and screamed NO. Then why did you say that. Listen, do you want me to move out. I paused and then said, I'd rather try to repair the relationship. However, you have so much resentment towards me, for something I really had little control over, I do not know if this is possible. She said, you had control. You chose to not take action. I said how? Did I cause my dad's death? Did I cause my hospital and ER stays? No answer.
> 
> If, within a month, she isn't able to come around and treat this like a marriage, I will, unfortunately, have to say we should divorce (no separation. Trust me when I say I feel separated already). I will say, listen, you will not sleep in the same bed as me. You will not be intimate with me. You will not have a child with me. There really isn't a reason to still be married. I'd like to get these papers signed by both of us ASAP so I can file and you will then be a free woman.
> 
> I stopped paying for this therapist last week. She offered to take over the payments, however, she doesn't know if she will still go due to the price.
> 
> Yes, my mom and my sister said the same thing as you have with the talking to friends and family. I, however, do not do that to my spouse. I would hope the same. I guess, I was wrong. They do not get the VARs either. They do not think it is right for me to VAR her. They also both suggest a little more time and working it out. Saying, it cannot be that bad. No, I've not told them we've not been intimate for so long, nor did I tell them she told me to find sex somewhere else. That's a bit weird to talk to female members of the family about. Just too embarrassed.


MIJ, You did good about bringing up divorce. You got a positive response from her. Congratulations. :grin2:

Now you should not be so quick to expect her to "come around" in only one month. That is an unmeasurable thing. Your goal here to make continual and measurable progress. Make a list of 5-10 things that you want her to do. They MUST be specific and actionable. Examples are 1) return to main bed, 2) date night with you 1-2 / week etc. For week one, have her do one item on the list. Do not show her the list. Just tell her one item you want her to do. #1 she returns to bed. Next week, another item or two is added so that she is doing more and more. And she will do same for you, tell you each week what new thing she wants. They are additive so for week 4 you do all the items done the previous weeks. That is how you make and measure progress. 

For week one, she returns to bed and you DO NOT pressure her for sex. Got that? Week 1 is just to get her back to same bed to sleep or cuddle. Sex is another list item of week 3 or later.


----------



## 225985

You have a copy of Married Man's Sex Life Primer 2011, right? Read it or read it again. While wife is "coming around" you are going to work on improving you and your sex market value. You are going to work out, dress better, better grooming etc to build your confidence. By doing this , you will not be making work, fixing her and VARs as the only things in your life. Once you reduce your need to be with her or fix her, she will notice and respond, maybe subtlety, but she will notice. 

I am doing MMSLP now and I am older than you. If I can do it, you can. 

And for at least the next two weeks you will not mention to her your hospital stays. Quit being guilty about that.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I will be amazed, if not floored if she stays one night in the master bedroom. Remember, she said we'll see. She's said this before. As for the changes, I exercise daily, she sees. I've gotten new clothes, her mom and her have noticed. They asked why, I looked at my wife and said, for new beginnings and then smiled and looked away. That's where we are now. However, like I said, I do not think she will do anything AT ALL. It's all talk, no substance. I thought I'd surprise her with a nice VD dinner, she didn't like the place, and wanted to go somewhere else. I am not crazy about it, so she said we can go dutch. She said after all, we act more like friends and husband / wife you say. So, I do not know how to take that. Guess where we're spending time on actual VD? HER PARENTS!!! She doesn't like celebrating VD on a Sunday, only Friday or Saturday.


----------



## 225985

She should have just accepted your VD plans, even if not her preferred restaurant. Next time (and we will get this to a next time  ) just tell her your will surprise her with dinner and don't tell her the location. 

Kind of $ucks to be at her parents' house for VD, especially since mom is so toxic. Suffer through it with a smile. 

And take her out for dinner on this Friday or Saturday. By golly, the actual date does not really matter to you, does it? Take her to her choice restaurant if you can get in at this late time. And you pay. Pretend it's VD without telling her so. Pretend it's your first date.

So, have you and her agreed to a timetable to work this out? Two months? And have you agreed on what will constitute progress? If this all does not work out, then file. During the time, try to control the negative emotions and stop being reactive. With all that you have been put through, that will be difficult. If she does something you do not like or it is not working, you know that this will all be over in 2 months.

During this time, follow @jld advice and use every opportunity to ask her questions. No more "I do not know how to take that." You will find out then and there that she means and do not accept her "i don't know" as an answer. If she says you are more like friends, calmly and earnestly ask her what she means by that, does she like it that way and does she want that to continue or does she want to move towards being a couple again. Pretend you are dating her instead of divorcing her. You have two months to decide if she is a keeper or someone to release. 

Great job on the new and improved you !


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will be amazed, if not floored if she stays one night in the master bedroom. Remember, she said we'll see. She's said this before. As for the changes, I exercise daily, she sees. I've gotten new clothes, her mom and her have noticed. They asked why, I looked at my wife and said, for new beginnings and then smiled and looked away. That's where we are now. However, like I said, I do not think she will do anything AT ALL. It's all talk, no substance. I thought I'd surprise her with a nice VD dinner, she didn't like the place, and wanted to go somewhere else. * I am not crazy about it, so she said we can go dutch. * She said after all, we act more like friends and husband / wife you say. So, I do not know how to take that. Guess where we're spending time on actual VD? HER PARENTS!!! She doesn't like celebrating VD on a Sunday, only Friday or Saturday.


The bolded is problematic. Makes you sound babyish. And she responded by appeasing you. Does not make you attractive to her.

VD is usually for the woman, MIJ.


----------



## RoseAglow

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> The convo was near an hour long and it was like pulling teeth. Everything I asked, I mostly received one of two answers. I am trying the best I can or I do not know. Some examples. I really want you to be happy, and I do not make you happy. What can I do to make you happy and repair the relationship? I do not know. That is why I am seeing a therapist to figure out what is going on. Is there anything I am doing wrong or upsetting you right now? No. You've been really good for the last few months. Can we try to sleep in the same bed? Ehh, umm, I do not know. We'll see. It takes time for me to comfortable. What can I do to help you? I don't know. Can we start trying for a baby? I don't know. Can we at least start being intimate? Sorry, I just don't feel it. If you need sex so bad, you may want to find it some where else. Do you want me to? No. Why say that then? I don't know what to say or do. I am trying. She asks, do you want me to leave? I really have no place to go. I said, I'd rather work on our relationship. No answer. She asks, do I want a divorce? No, however, if we are unable to act like husband and wife, there really is no point in being married. No answer. We're basically acting like friends, not husband and wife. She agrees. How do we fix this and get us back to acting like husband and wife? I don't know.
> 
> That's about the sum of it.


None of this conversation, as written, is you doing any kind of active listening, as far as I understand it.

It looks like your goal was to get information. You kept pushing her to get the information you want to know. You keep asking Why? What can I do? Can we try this or that?

Active listening is trying to understand the person. It's not asking "why this" or "will you try that?" 

It's "I am trying to understand your perspective. If I am understanding you, you are not comfortable with the idea of coming back into bed with me. Can you tell me your concerns about coming back?"

Then, whatever she says, repeat it back to make sure you understand it from her perspective.

It's not about whether you agree with her- it's just getting to a place where you understand her perspective, where she's coming from. 

You have to be willing to hear her and calmly accept that whatever you're hearing is her viewpoint, even if you don't like it, even if you strongly disagree. If you can't keep control of yourself, your temper, you aren't safe for her and you are not likely to get her true take on things. 
@jld is this about right? I defer to I you as the TAM pro regarding active listening.


----------



## jld

RoseAglow said:


> None of this conversation, as written, is you doing any kind of active listening, as far as I understand it.
> 
> It looks like your goal was to get information. You kept pushing her to get the information you want to know. You keep asking Why? What can I do? Can we try this or that?
> 
> Active listening is trying to understand the person. It's not asking "why this" or "will you try that?"
> 
> It's "I am trying to understand your perspective. If I am understanding you, you are not comfortable with the idea of coming back into bed with me. Can you tell me your concerns about coming back?"
> 
> Then, whatever she says, repeat it back to make sure you understand it from her perspective.
> 
> It's not about whether you agree with her- it's just getting to a place where you understand her perspective, where she's coming from.
> 
> You have to be willing to hear her and calmly accept that whatever you're hearing is her viewpoint, even if you don't like it, even if you strongly disagree. If you can't keep control of yourself, your temper, you aren't safe for her and you are not likely to get her true take on things.
> 
> @jld is this about right? I defer to I you as the TAM pro regarding active listening.


I think you are better at it than I am, Rose! I am hereby handing the TAM Active Listening Authority Badge over to you!


----------



## RoseAglow

MIJ, 

I think you two need a real marital program. I think IC is great for individual growth, but it terrible for a marriage that is in trouble. Most therapists focus on removing areas of conflict in the patient's life and often it means the marriage gets dissolved. I'm not really a big fan of most MCs either, to be honest. They just don't have a great success rate. You have to be really careful- your experience shows how unhelpful some can be! 

People are recomending books for you, but I think what would be really helpful is His Needs, Her Needs, and working their plan. You can get a start reviewing the information here: Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts Many marriages on TAM, including mine, have been helped by the ideas promoted in his book. 

I think your marriage is savable. It's in a really tough place right now, but there's none of the Big problems (infidelity, abuse, addiction.) Don't get me wrong, sexless news is a huge problem!! But as a woman, I can see why it's happening. Right now the two of you are adversarial. I am not saying that it's your fault- I am just saying that most of us females shut down sexually much easier than men do. We get stressed, or depressed, anxious, feeling ill, etc. and sex is one of the earlier things to go, in general, for many women. She has several of these going on, and they aren't going away any time soon. But they can be resolved with time, and if your marriage improves I think you're likely to get your sex life back. It certainly won't get back without a marital improvement. 

The Marriage Builders stuff will very likely help you both get re-aligned so that you are back to being in this together, rather than in a fighting position against each other.


----------



## RoseAglow

jld said:


> I think you are better at it than I am, Rose! I am hereby handing the TAM Active Listening Authority Badge over to you!


Lol! I am no so sure that's a good idea, Wife Whisperer! But thanks, I'm learning the ropes.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Personally I would NOT go to the MIL for VD. That makes you as duplicitous as her. She is toxic. I don't see how things will do anything except push you away and make you more resentful.

I would pick a place you like and ask your wife to come but expect her to say no and go anyway. Get a burger, throw darts or play pool, whatever.

It's a big fake sham to spend VD with MIL. It is a day for lovers. Never in a million years would I go.

I have to ask - why in the world did you agree to go there if all places?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> The bolded is problematic. Makes you sound babyish. And she responded by appeasing you. Does not make you attractive to her.
> 
> VD is usually for the woman, MIJ.


You do realize a you bolded her response, not mine.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> She should have just accepted your VD plans, even if not her preferred restaurant. Next time (and we will get this to a next time  ) just tell her your will surprise her with dinner and don't tell her the location.
> 
> Kind of $ucks to be at her parents' house for VD, especially since mom is so toxic. Suffer through it with a smile.
> 
> And take her out for dinner on this Friday or Saturday. By golly, the actual date does not really matter to you, does it? Take her to her choice restaurant if you can get in at this late time. And you pay. Pretend it's VD without telling her so. Pretend it's your first date.
> 
> So, have you and her agreed to a timetable to work this out? Two months? And have you agreed on what will constitute progress? If this all does not work out, then file. During the time, try to control the negative emotions and stop being reactive. With all that you have been put through, that will be difficult. If she does something you do not like or it is not working, you know that this will all be over in 2 months.
> 
> During this time, follow @jld advice and use every opportunity to ask her questions. No more "I do not know how to take that." You will find out then and there that she means and do not accept her "i don't know" as an answer. If she says you are more like friends, calmly and earnestly ask her what she means by that, does she like it that way and does she want that to continue or does she want to move towards being a couple again. Pretend you are dating her instead of divorcing her. You have two months to decide if she is a keeper or someone to release.
> 
> Great job on the new and improved you !


Taking it step by step. She will not nail down anything aside from we'll see. I've tried to get her to expand on her we'll see and I don't know responses. She just gets flustered when I request additional information or clarification on what she means.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> None of this conversation, as written, is you doing any kind of active listening, as far as I understand it.
> 
> It looks like your goal was to get information. You kept pushing her to get the information you want to know. You keep asking Why? What can I do? Can we try this or that?
> 
> Active listening is trying to understand the person. It's not asking "why this" or "will you try that?"
> 
> It's "I am trying to understand your perspective. If I am understanding you, you are not comfortable with the idea of coming back into bed with me. Can you tell me your concerns about coming back?"
> 
> Then, whatever she says, repeat it back to make sure you understand it from her perspective.
> 
> It's not about whether you agree with her- it's just getting to a place where you understand her perspective, where she's coming from.
> 
> You have to be willing to hear her and calmly accept that whatever you're hearing is her viewpoint, even if you don't like it, even if you strongly disagree. If you can't keep control of yourself, your temper, you aren't safe for her and you are not likely to get her true take on things.
> 
> @jld is this about right? I defer to I you as the TAM pro regarding active listening.


When someone gives you little to no information, it's hard, if not impossible to truly actively listen and try to ascertain what she's getting at. It equates to a 2 year old having a temper tantrum. It's not as cut and dry as you or JLD may believe.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Personally I would NOT go to the MIL for VD. That makes you as duplicitous as her. She is toxic. I don't see how things will do anything except push you away and make you more resentful.
> 
> I would pick a place you like and ask your wife to come but expect her to say no and go anyway. Get a burger, throw darts or play pool, whatever.
> 
> It's a big fake sham to spend VD with MIL. It is a day for lovers. Never in a million years would I go.
> 
> I have to ask - why in the world did you agree to go there if all places?


Every week, she goes to her parents on either Saturday or Sunday. It's incredibly frustrating as it kills the weekend. I am trying to be supportive and go, but it is what it is. In person, the MIL puts on a front, so it's not terrible. The traffic can be a pain though.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would NOT go to the MIL for VD. That makes you as duplicitous as her. She is toxic. I don't see how things will do anything except push you away and make you more resentful.
> 
> I would pick a place you like and ask your wife to come but expect her to say no and go anyway. Get a burger, throw darts or play pool, whatever.
> 
> It's a big fake sham to spend VD with MIL. It is a day for lovers. Never in a million years would I go.
> 
> I have to ask - why in the world did you agree to go there if all places?
> 
> 
> 
> Every week, she goes to her parents on either Saturday or Sunday. It's incredibly frustrating as it kills the weekend. I am trying to be supportive and go, but it is what it is. In person, the MIL puts on a front, so it's not terrible. The traffic can be a pain though.
Click to expand...

No I mean YOU are being duplicitous by going. I understand you believe it's being supportive, but I would skip this particular one - it is not supportive its capitulating.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> MIJ,
> 
> I think you two need a real marital program. I think IC is great for individual growth, but it terrible for a marriage that is in trouble. Most therapists focus on removing areas of conflict in the patient's life and often it means the marriage gets dissolved. I'm not really a big fan of most MCs either, to be honest. They just don't have a great success rate. You have to be really careful- your experience shows how unhelpful some can be!
> 
> People are recomending books for you, but I think what would be really helpful is His Needs, Her Needs, and working their plan. You can get a start reviewing the information here: Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts Many marriages on TAM, including mine, have been helped by the ideas promoted in his book.
> 
> I think your marriage is savable. It's in a really tough place right now, but there's none of the Big problems (infidelity, abuse, addiction.) Don't get me wrong, sexless news is a huge problem!! But as a woman, I can see why it's happening. Right now the two of you are adversarial. I am not saying that it's your fault- I am just saying that most of us females shut down sexually much easier than men do. We get stressed, or depressed, anxious, feeling ill, etc. and sex is one of the earlier things to go, in general, for many women. She has several of these going on, and they aren't going away any time soon. But they can be resolved with time, and if your marriage improves I think you're likely to get your sex life back. It certainly won't get back without a marital improvement.
> 
> The Marriage Builders stuff will very likely help you both get re-aligned so that you are back to being in this together, rather than in a fighting position against each other.


I hear you Rose. I've been reading a lot of books and making changes on how to approach her. It's very difficult. The reason is, her huge resentment towards me for something that was out of my control. She cannot get past that time period, and that is the biggest issue. I agree, MC can be difficult, as well as IC. However, she's been in IC before (wasn't told this until recently), and she says it's helping her. The counselor has told her we're not a good mach in terms of personality. The counselor told her she really needs someone who is less opinionated, will do whatever she wants at a moments notice (I assume that's what the counselor has in her marriage). We never really had a strong sex life. However, once or twice a week and I am okay. Since last year, it's been zero. While I can read whatever I need to read, I've asked her to read things about marriage and how to help us, she refuses. I am going to counseling to help me, that is it. Therefore, what you and JLD may be missing is it's a once sided relationship. I can do backflips and dance a gig to make her happy, but it doesn't get us anywhere. I can only control and make changes on my being, I cannot do anything to change the way she thinks.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> No I mean YOU are being duplicitous by going. I understand you believe it's being supportive, but I would skip this particular one - it is not supportive its capitulating.


I was thinking about it, but it would start a huge argument. It's not worth the additional stress. I was going to go because she likes to go. I do not mind being around the father, but, yes, being around the mom isn't that great for me. Regardless, this may end very soon, so it's not a big deal. One way or another, I either get my wife back or my Sunday's back.


----------



## RoseAglow

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> When someone gives you little to no information, it's hard, if not impossible to truly actively listen and try to ascertain what she's getting at. It equates to a 2 year old having a temper tantrum. It's not as cut and dry as you or JLD may believe.


You told jld earlier that you have been active listening for the past few years, yet above, you say that it's hard, if not impossible, to truly actively listen. So how much do you think you've done, really? 

You gave your description of your conversation and none of it was active listening. It was you, understandably trying to get information, but she isn't willing to give it to you. You were trying to find out how she feels, but you need a different tactic to find out her perspective.

I completely believe you that it IS hard. Your wife doesn't trust you enough to open up to you. She's not going to just tell you her inner thoughts. You're not going to get them by continuously trying to push on her. 

Go check out the link in my other post. I think it will give you some ideas on where to go from here.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> You told jld earlier that you have been active listening for the past few years, yet above, you say that it's hard, if not impossible, to truly actively listen. So how much do you think you've done, really?
> 
> You gave your description of your conversation and none of it was active listening. It was you, understandably trying to get information, but she isn't willing to give it to you. You were trying to find out how she feels, but you need a different tactic to find out her perspective.
> 
> I completely believe you that it IS hard. Your wife doesn't trust you enough to open up to you. She's not going to just tell you her inner thoughts. You're not going to get them by continuously trying to push on her.
> 
> Go check out the link in my other post. I think it will give you some ideas on where to go from here.


I will definately look into that link. I like to absorb as much information as possible to help make me a better person. This has been going on for nearly 2 years. Before that, during my extreme pain episodes, I wasn't the greatest listener. Since the last 1.5 years or so, I've been reading up on books and other ways to be a better communicator and listener. Am I perfect, no, of course not. However, there is no secret agenda her. I am truly trying to get to the bottom of what's bothering her. She tells me one thing, and her mom and the counselor another. Until they are on the same page (what she's saying), we will never be on the same page. However, I do not see it working out. She had this big wall up (she's had it since we got married), and it just get's higher and higher. Once a person gets to that level, it doesn't seem like it can be repaired without both people working on it. She's not working on it. She's just telling, to all that will listen, what's in her head (except her husband).


----------



## RoseAglow

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I hear you Rose. I've been reading a lot of books and making changes on how to approach her. It's very difficult. The reason is, her huge resentment towards me for something that was out of my control. She cannot get past that time period, and that is the biggest issue. I agree, MC can be difficult, as well as IC. However, she's been in IC before (wasn't told this until recently), and she says it's helping her. The counselor has told her we're not a good mach in terms of personality. The counselor told her she really needs someone who is less opinionated, will do whatever she wants at a moments notice (I assume that's what the counselor has in her marriage).


Argh, sounds just like an IC! Your wife doesn't need a different spouse, she needs to learn how to operate in a good marriage! This just adds to her confusion on what to do. It might help her feel better about getting
divorced, but that is not what will actually help in the long run! :banghead:



> We never really had a strong sex life. However, once or twice a week and I am okay. Since last year, it's been zero. While I can read whatever I need to read, I've asked her to read things about marriage and how to help us, she refuses. I am going to counseling to help me, that is it. Therefore, what you and JLD may be missing is it's a once sided relationship. I can do backflips and dance a gig to make her happy, but it doesn't get us anywhere. I can only control and make changes on my being, I cannot do anything to change the way she thinks.


I fully get that you're in a one-sided marriage at this time. This is actually pretty common, sadly. It has a term: people seeking marital help usually have a "reluctant spouse". If you follow the link I sent you, you might read and see that you're wife is in withdrawal, and you're on your way there as well. It's possible for one person to bring the reluctant spouse out of withdrawal, into conflict, then back into intimacy. 

I don't know what flipped your wife's switch. It might have been that she exhausted her giving ability during your illness and now resents you, it might have been something else. Again, not saying that any of it is your fault; if anything, it's hers for not communicating. But sadly, none of us know this stuff intuitively. 

The HNHN book and MB website are often suggested on TAM because it gives a great framework on how the whole marital love thing works. 
A lot of it is free on the website. Most people are able to make huge improvements in their marriages, even with a reluctant or withdrawn spouse, just from the website.

If you are so far gone now that you don't have the emotional strength or energy left, it's understandable. But if you still want to try to save your marriage, I think it's your best bet.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> Argh, sounds just like an IC! Your wife doesn't need a different spouse, she needs to learn how to operate in a good marriage! This just adds to her confusion on what to do. It might help her feel better about getting
> divorced, but that is not what will actually help in the long run! :banghead:
> 
> 
> 
> I fully get that you're in a one-sided marriage at this time. This is actually pretty common, sadly. It has a term: people seeking marital help usually have a "reluctant spouse". If you follow the link I sent you, you might read and see that you're wife is in withdrawal, and you're on your way there as well. It's possible for one person to bring the reluctant spouse out of withdrawal, into conflict, then back into intimacy.
> 
> I don't know what flipped your wife's switch. It might have been that she exhausted her giving ability during your illness and now resents you, it might have been something else. Again, not saying that any of it is your fault; if anything, it's hers for not communicating. But sadly, none of us know this stuff intuitively.
> 
> The HNHN book and MB website are often suggested on TAM because it gives a great framework on how the whole marital love thing works.
> A lot of it is free on the website. Most people are able to make huge improvements in their marriages, even with a reluctant or withdrawn spouse, just from the website.
> 
> If you are so far gone now that you don't have the emotional strength or energy left, it's understandable. But if you still want to try to save your marriage, I think it's your best bet.


It's an uphill battle where the IC and the mom are just reassuring the wife that she'll be fine after we divorce. That part I heard on the VAR, not from the wife. The part where the counselor said she needs a weak doormat of a spouse she told me directly. She even said that would be a very boring marriage. I will certainly continue to try, but it's really hard when there is no light at the end of the tunnel. She's told me, since dating, that she had a hard time communicating. If there is no progress in the coming month or two, I will have to throw in the towel. Not that I am giving up, but it makes no sense to continue beating a dead horse. She's stated several times that the resentment towards me is very high and she doesn't know if this marriage can survive. The mother and the counselor aren't helping matters either.


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> You do realize a you bolded her response, not mine.


Help me understand why this makes a difference.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## RoseAglow

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I will definately look into that link. I like to absorb as much information as possible to help make me a better person. This has been going on for nearly 2 years. Before that, during my extreme pain episodes, I wasn't the greatest listener. Since the last 1.5 years or so, I've been reading up on books and other ways to be a better communicator and listener. Am I perfect, no, of course not. However, there is no secret agenda her. I am truly trying to get to the bottom of what's bothering her. She tells me one thing, and her mom and the counselor another. Until they are on the same page (what she's saying), we will never be on the same page. However, I do not see it working out. She had this big wall up (she's had it since we got married), and it just get's higher and higher. Once a person gets to that level, it doesn't seem like it can be repaired without both people working on it. She's not working on it. She's just telling, to all that will listen, what's in her head (except her husband).


I think your only agenda is to try and improve yourself and your marriage. 

Your wife may never take down her walls. I doubt she's being entirely truthful with her therapist or her mom, to be honest. She's afraid to really let you in. I sincerely doubt she's let them truly in, either.

But out of everyone in her life, she probably wishes she could let you in most of all. That's the way most of us females work. 

I really wonder if just seeing you in that much pain scared her emotionally. Was there a possibility that you could die? I wonder if it triggered some kind of abandonment issue where she's afraid to let you in and she's afraid to let you go. She's afraid of something! 

Anyway, I am just rambling now. I hope the links are helpful. If nothing else, you'll have more information for your next relationship. But hopefully your "next" relationship will be a new chapter with your wife.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> Help me understand why this makes a difference.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Just stated for clarification.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> I think your only agenda is to try and improve yourself and your marriage.
> 
> Your wife may never take down her walls. I doubt she's being entirely truthful with her therapist or her mom, to be honest. She's afraid to really let you in. I sincerely doubt she's let them truly in, either.
> 
> But out of everyone in her life, she probably wishes she could let you in most of all. That's the way most of us females work.
> 
> I really wonder if just seeing you in that much pain scared her emotionally. Was there a possibility that you could die? I wonder if it triggered some kind of abandonment issue where she's afraid to let you in and she's afraid to let you go. She's afraid of something!
> 
> Anyway, I am just rambling now. I hope the links are helpful. If nothing else, you'll have more information for your next relationship. But hopefully your "next" relationship will be a new chapter with your wife.


Not really sure why she will not let me know. She's stated to me that she doesn't trust me because I didn't tell her I was going to the doctor or ER until after the fact. I do not see the problem there. However, since she brought that to my attention months ago, I've told her in advance that I was going and backed it up with doctors notes/scripts as proof, just in case. She tells her mom and the counselor that it's because of the Doritos incident. I also believe, that she feels in her head that I really caused delayed her for trying to conceive. Which cannot be farther from the truth. During that time, since I was unable to do much, I offered for her to leave if I am delaying her life's choices, IVF and to freeze her eggs. She declined all options. Aside from that, I just do not know. I've continued to offer IVF for the last 1.5 years. No luck. She still doesn't know if she wants to have a baby with me. Which, one would think, since she (and we) are wanting a baby, that she'd be a bit more receptive. Doesn't make any sense aside from blaming me for something that I didn't do. Unless she's using me a s scapegoat for her parents, counselor and friends. Not sure.


----------



## RoseAglow

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> It's an uphill battle where the IC and the mom are just reassuring the wife that she'll be fine after we divorce. That part I heard on the VAR, not from the wife. The part where the counselor said she needs a weak doormat of a spouse she told me directly. She even said that would be a very boring marriage. I will certainly continue to try, but it's really hard when there is no light at the end of the tunnel. She's told me, since dating, that she had a hard time communicating. If there is no progress in the coming month or two, I will have to throw in the towel. Not that I am giving up, but it makes no sense to continue beating a dead horse. She's stated several times that the resentment towards me is very high and she doesn't know if this marriage can survive. The mother and the counselor aren't helping matters either.


The mother and the counselor are definitely your marital adversaries. 

Your wife's resentment is high. Bringing up divorce very likely made it higher. Don't get me wrong- you're close to divorce and I think it's imperative that she knows it. But, that knowledge has a cost. It made you *less* safe for her. 

Her support group are all going to come in and say, "you're going to be OK." That's normal. 

But it doesn't mean the game is over yet. Go read the link. This is the end game for you two. She might agree to try the program if it's the last shot she has at staying married. 

If she agrees to even the first part- spending at least 20 hours a week alone with you, doing fun and enjoyable things- you will already have won a major battle. If she actually does spend it with you, it will very likely make her feel like you're on the same side. This small thing alone is extremely powerful.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> You do realize a you bolded her response, not mine.


I just reread it. It sounds like you are talking. You did not like the alternative she proposed and she offered to pay her own way to be able to go. That is how I understood it, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 225985

RoseAglow said:


> *I think your marriage is savable.*


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

RoseAglow said:


> The mother and the counselor are definitely your marital adversaries.
> 
> Your wife's resentment is high. Bringing up divorce very likely made it higher. Don't get me wrong- you're close to divorce and I think it's imperative that she knows it. But, that knowledge has a cost. It made you *less* safe for her.
> 
> Her support group are all going to come in and say, "you're going to be OK." That's normal.
> 
> But it doesn't mean the game is over yet. Go read the link. This is the end game for you two. She might agree to try the program if it's the last shot she has at staying married.
> 
> If she agrees to even the first part- spending at least 20 hours a week alone with you, doing fun and enjoyable things- you will already have won a major battle. If she actually does spend it with you, it will very likely make her feel like you're on the same side. This small thing alone is extremely powerful.


No doubt. I do not get the mom's or even the therapist's POV. Instead of telling her that you will be fine and move on. One would think they would both say we should work TOGETHER on US and see where it leads. I've started to read the pages on the site. I will use them, however, I am not too sure my wife will. She will think I am suggesting for her to do something, thus do nothing at all. Remember, she consistently says, I will do things when I want, not when you tell me too. We spend some time together, but she's too tired to do much. When she gets home, she eats dinner, watches some TV, then goes to sleep on the couch. Then, wakes up in a few hours to go to her bed and sleep til morning. Sundays are off because she (and sometimes me) go see her parents in southern NJ (hour drive each way. my fault, as she moved into my apt - what she and her mom say. Apparently, the original plan was for her to get me to sell my apt and WE buy a new place. Two problems, well three. I will lose a lot of money. Two, the proceeds would be community property. Three, she has no money to help with a new purchase. Good stuff). As you can see, there is little time for us to spend together. 

I will try my best to get the ship turned around, but I feel it may be a fruitless task in the end. After all, I have a lot against me it seems:

She doesn't like the place we live (why move here?).
She's not sure on me.
She feels it's mostly or all my fault.
Her mom seems to be against me.
Her therapist seems to be against me.

Talk about an uphill battle. If I knew a relationship would be this hard, I would had passed on it.


----------



## jld

Respectfully, @RoseAglow, I do not see either the therapist or the mom as adversaries of the marriage. I think they want the best for the wife. 

My mom and any therapist I have ever had have been very positive towards my husband.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Not entirely sure how someone can compare their experiences with someone else's, JLD. Different people. Different therapist. Different results.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Not entirely sure how someone can compare their experiences with someone else's, JLD. Different people. Different therapist. Different results.


True. But the therapist is a professional with experience. More objective than her mother, anyway.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> True. But the therapist is a professional with experience. More objective than her mother, anyway.


One can assume this, but it is not always the case. Nonetheless, we can at least agree to disagree.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I simply don't understand why you would fight for this unsatisfying, unfulfilling, distain-filled life. The VARs tell the truth. I'm sorry.


----------



## jld

TheTruthHurts said:


> I simply don't understand why you would fight for this unsatisfying, unfulfilling, distain-filled life. The VARs tell the truth. I'm sorry.


I think he still loves her. And I think if he could change, he could reignite her love, too.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> I simply don't understand why you would fight for this unsatisfying, unfulfilling, distain-filled life. The VARs tell the truth. I'm sorry.


I have a time table. If there is no improvement, then I will pull the trigger. 




jld said:


> I think he still loves her. And I think if he could change, he could reignite her love, too.


There's nothing else for me to change. A marriage, last time I checked, is a two way street. A relationship cannot progress unless both work at it. Nonetheless, I appreciate someone taking the other side. Jenna would surely appreciate your perspectives you've brought to this thread. I will note, I have agreed with some, however, the most recent ones, I respectfully do not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and observations.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> There's nothing else for me to change. A marriage, last time I checked, is a two way street. A relationship cannot progress unless both work at it. Nonetheless, I appreciate someone taking the other side. Jenna would surely appreciate your perspectives you've brought to this thread. I will note, I have agreed with some, however, the most recent ones, I respectfully do not. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and observations.


Would she be willing to participate here?

Yes, marriage is a two way street. But often one partner gets things going, or takes the lead in conflict resolution. 

Of course we are all going to disagree at some point. @RoseAglow is a very good friend of mine, someone for whom I have great respect. But sometimes we disagree. We can grow from looking at how we disagree.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Would she be willing to participate here?


Sadly, no. I asked and sent the link, I got a LOL reply.

In terms of the counselor, my wife has even told me she doesn't trust her either. Over the past few days she's been complaining about work. I said, have you considered discussing this with the counselor to get her perspective? She said no chance. I do not trust her. I know we have a confidentiality agreement, however, who knows if she holds up to it or not. You know, I do not trust anyone. I said, you cannot keep living like this. It's worked for me thus far, so I (she) can't be wrong.

It's hard to deal with someone with a view on life and relationships like this. She has walls up for everyone. There are some things she's too embarrassed to tell her mom, but she tells me. The only thing it seems she doesn't/won't talk to me about, is well, US. Therein lies the problem. The woman has trust issues with EVERYONE.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Also, in terms of leaving. It's very hard to give up on someone that you love and care about. Every I try to psych myself up for it, I bring myself back to earth stating that even though my needs are not being met, I take responsibility for my actions. I need to find a way to fix this. However, I do not know if I can. I feel if I divorce her, then, I am letting US down. If I was based on logic only, and no emotions, then yes, I should had been out the door already. However, a marriage or even a relationship is not based on logic, it's primary based on emotions. When I think of her, I think of the song by Billy Joel, She's Always a Woman. Pretty pathetic, no?


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Sadly, no. I asked and sent the link, I got a LOL reply.
> 
> In terms of the counselor, my wife has even told me she doesn't trust her either. Over the past few days she's been complaining about work. I said, have you considered discussing this with the counselor to get her perspective? She said no chance. I do not trust her. I know we have a confidentiality agreement, however, who knows if she holds up to it or not. You know, I do not trust anyone. I said, you cannot keep living like this. It's worked for me thus far, so I (she) can't be wrong.
> 
> It's hard to deal with someone with a view on life and relationships like this. She has walls up for everyone. There are some things she's too embarrassed to tell her mom, but she tells me. The only thing it seems she doesn't/won't talk to me about, is well, US. Therein lies the problem. The woman has trust issues with EVERYONE.


I am sure that is frustrating, OP. It would take more patience than I have to deal with someone like that.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Also, in terms of leaving. It's very hard to give up on someone that you love and care about. Every I try to psych myself up for it, I bring myself back to earth stating that even though my needs are not being met, I take responsibility for my actions. I need to find a way to fix this. However, I do not know if I can. I feel if I divorce her, then, I am letting US down. If I was based on logic only, and no emotions, then yes, I should had been out the door already. However, a marriage or even a relationship is not based on logic, it's primary based on emotions. When I think of her, I think of the song by Billy Joel, She's Always a Woman. Pretty pathetic, no?


It is really what is worth it to you. To me, it would not be worth staying with someone whose trust I could not earn. 

But I am not a man. Maybe it is different for you.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Ideally, I just want the woman I married back. However, I am not sure if that is possible. Or, she's been through such hell at work (and in her mind), that this is really her when pushed to the limit. I really have no idea on what to do. To be honest, people (outside this forum) all told me that I should file and be done with this. This is basically friendship and people living together, not marriage. 

I see divorce on the horizon, as I do not think she will meet me part way. I cannot force her to trust me. I cannot force her to share the same bed. I cannot force her to be intimate. I cannot force her to start a family with me. For a woman who, apparently has had a dream to be a mom since she was a kid, is doing the complete opposite in terms of having a child. I just do not understand her rationale on anything.

All in all, I guess maybe I am wishing upon a star or divine intervention to help us. As of right now, it's just not working.


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## jld

I would not suggest forcing anyone, anyway. How satisfying could that even be?

She said once she was not quite ready to divorce *yet*. If I were you, and did not feel I could earn her trust, I would just do both of us a favor and end it. Someone more compatible for each of you is surely out there.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Yea, I get what you are saying. 

Another thing, I just happened to listen to a VAR, and it was just amazing what she said to her mom. It was in multiple parts. One, the counselor told her to be strong, hang out with friends, and get her own apt. Then, leaving me would be easier. Wife said it's easier said than done. She'll do it if and when she is ready to do so. She then said to her mom, I do not know which I would more unhappy with, living alone or living with my husband. Either way, I will be unhappy.

Then she's complaining to her mom about saying that I wasn't feeling well one night, so I went upstairs and put the TV and fell asleep. She claims that she asked me to watch TV (which she did), but I closed and locked my door and was laughing hysterically. So her and the mom were negative on me for that. This is not true of course. Then, I told her about a medical thing the docs were monitoring, and she tells her mom. She also claims I'm on meds (pain,blood,etc), that I've not told her about, which I haven't been giving anything new. They go back and forth attacking me on these things. This is just crazy. Why say these things? There were worse things, she said too. What is the point of saying all these things to her mom? Especially when they are not true? She comes in to the apt all happy and nice. I just do not understand. What person gets a thrill by telling a person of exaggerated things to another person? 

On another note, when we first started dating, she claimed she MAY had an STI, after we were intimate. I got a test, showed I was positive for the STI. Showed her the test results from the doctor, and then she felt bad and sorry. I've been getting retested yearly, and they have all been negative. I guess it was a false positive. I was only going by the doctor's test. Since I am preparing to leave, I got tested again, and it was, yet again, negative (a good thing). I told her and she said, so you made me feel bad all these years for nothing? She told this to her mom, and her mom ripped me a part. Saying that I probably never got tested in the first place, and I just did it for sympathy. I showed my wife ALL the tests. What is she talking about? The mom even called me a fvcken piece of sh!t for do this when all a long I never had this STI which SHE told me SHE had AFTER we were intimate. She said all her doctors, by visual inspection said she was negative. Yet, she never took a blood test. So, of course, it's my fault reading and showing her what the initial blood test report said. 

See what happens when I try to be honest and keep her informed? I get slapped in the face. She also said I've been driving her crazy on this test for the last three weeks. The test was taken on Monday, results were given on Wednesday. Again, what is she talking about?

Then they both went on and attacked my medical issues, saying I have so many issues, who knows what's wrong with meat times. The previous counselor told me to give my wife a list of all my meds and bank information in case something happens to me. I gave it to her the next day. Her mom asked my wife if I gave her this list, she said no. ???

I also have a small little room I work in for clients when I am not at the office. Some are government contracts, which are classified. I was told I need to lock the room when I am not in it since I work offsite. I told my wife where the key is to open the door. Well, it seems she told her mom she checked and see if I locked the door, which I did. I do every time I leave the apt. I told her where the key is. Her mom and the therapist said this isn't good. Two questions, why did you need to enter the room, or "check" the room? Two, you know where the key is, just use it if you need to. Three, why say these lies to her mom and the therapist?

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING she said is opposite of what happened aside from me not wanting to watch TV with her one night this week. Which, of course, I should be vilified for. Her mom then asks, did you talk to him about any of these "issues", she said no. If all these things are true and are bothering you, then why not talk to me about it? Reason being, because they aren't. She's just looking for an excuse to berate me in front of her mom. 

Oh, apparently, I am a master manipulator because of the TV incident, and the mom agrees. What did I manipulate? I tell the truth, I get reamed. If I do not say anything, I get reamed as being moody. How does one win here?

Here's a good kicker. She then complains that she cannot keep on going to the therapist anymore or as much because it is too expensive. That is true, however, she only paid for one visit. I paid for all the other visits. In addition, before this week's session, I asked her to see if the therapist would go down on her rates. She didn't. She was afraid to upset her. I said, if you want, I will go 50/50 with you moving forward. Why does she make up these lies? She paid for one session. I paid for all the others. The mom says, such and independent woman. I am so pleased on the daughter I raised. Also, the therapist said I and my whole family have a genetic flaw in our makeup, and I cannot help my actions. ??? She's never even met me. She's not an MD. She's not checked my DNA or blood. How can someone make a statement like this?


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## TheTruthHurts

So just two questions. 

Are you going to MIL for V day? You'd be beyond foolish to do so at this point - it would show you have no self respect.

Second. Is there any possible way you can NOT start the D process with this latest VAR? She is unhappy with you, wants to leave, lies about you, mocks you... What EXACTLY would it take to make you act?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I am preparing to give her the papers in two weeks after we file for taxes. She's on my tax return, and owes a lot of $$$ due to some bonus she received. If I give it to her before, I have a feeling it will be like hell to get the check from her. I will try to get it sooner, but the earliest would be the 21st. Thus, file and then give her the speech and papers. I was considering going for the next two weeks so that nothing looks out of the obvious before the deed is done. I do not want to change things up, be distant and then give her the papers. I want her to be in agreement, not an adversary so I can get the papers signed and done. I did some research online about this, and it's in line with what I read.


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## jld

Thanks for adding the latest, OP. Gives more perspective on your situation.

I hope the divorce goes smoothly. It will be worth it to be free from a person you do not trust.

Trust is so important in marriage, OP. Please be more careful next time around.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I am preparing to give her the papers in two weeks after we file for taxes. She's on my tax return, and owes a lot of $$$ due to some bonus she received. If I give it to her before, I have a feeling it will be like hell to get the check from her.


She is not on YOUR tax return. You must be filing married joint. So the return is both of yours. If she owes lots due to bonus check, then her employer did not withhold sufficient tax from the check. She owes the money, not you.

Consider filing married separate rather than married joint for 2015. In that way she handles her taxes, you handle yours. And you won't have to fight like hell to get the check from her. So you can give her the papers now. She needs to start learning how to live on her own, doing taxes can be the first thing she does.

Do not go to MIL tomorrow!!!


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I am giving her what she says she wants, just too afraid or unsure of the future to ask. I do not see why she would fight it. She's offered a few times already asking me if I want her to leave. Well, now I do. If she stalls on the tax payment, no problem. I will file married, filing separately, however, I will have to recall my ROTH IRA contribution. Since it is negative now, I really do not want to do that. I am hoping, if I keep up this happy and pleasant routine, I'd be able to get the tax payment so I can e-file and then have the talk. Do it in reverse, there will certainly be a struggle. 

I never saw this coming JLD. She was the sweetest, nicest most supportive woman I've ever met. From the passing in my fam., to my medical, to being a great spouse. Then, BAM, out of no where, she turned into this. I am not sure if there will be a next time. Too many uncertainties. In addition, once bitten, twice shy. It seems all is good when the honeymoon phase is in. However, once the rose colored glasses come off, and reality sets in, no one knows how someone will react. I guess, THIS is is my true wife. As long as one does everything her way and you ask nothing of her, then it will be a perfect relationship it seems. I do not think that is how relationships are supposed to work.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> She is not on YOUR tax return. You must be filing married joint. So the return is both of yours. If she owes lots due to bonus check, then her employer did not withhold sufficient tax from the check. She owes the money, not you.
> 
> Consider filing married separate rather than married joint for 2015. In that way she handles her taxes, you handle yours. And you won't have to fight like hell to get the check from her. So you can give her the papers now. She needs to start learning how to live on her own, doing taxes can be the first thing she does.
> 
> Do not go to MIL tomorrow!!!


I will lose about half my ROTH IRA contribution (like 2200) if I have to recall the Roth IRA contribution. Married, filing jointly one cannot have a ROTH IRA if they earn over 10k. I really cannot afford to lose that money. She said she'll have it on the 20th. It's only a week away.

I was going to go tomorrow because I want everything to look like it is now. Plus, I do not want her talking to both her parents on ideas and strategies. This woman is two faced.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I am giving her what she says she wants, just too afraid or unsure of the future to ask. I do not see why she would fight it. She's offered a few times already asking me if I want her to leave. Well, now I do. If she stalls on the tax payment, no problem. I will file married, filing separately, however, I will have to recall my ROTH IRA contribution. Since it is negative now, I really do not want to do that. I am hoping, if I keep up this happy and pleasant routine, I'd be able to get the tax payment so I can e-file and then have the talk. Do it in reverse, there will certainly be a struggle.
> 
> I never saw this coming JLD. She was the sweetest, nicest most supportive woman I've ever met. From the passing in my fam., to my medical, to being a great spouse. Then, BAM, out of no where, she turned into this. I am not sure if there will be a next time. Too many uncertainties. In addition, once bitten, twice shy. It seems all is good when the honeymoon phase is in. However, once the rose colored glasses come off, and reality sets in, no one knows how someone will react. I guess, THIS is is my true wife. As long as one does everything her way and you ask nothing of her, then it will be a perfect relationship it seems. I do not think that is how relationships are supposed to work.


Taking some time before dating again might be helpful, OP. 

For myself, I was transparent from the beginning with my husband. I had come out of a bad relationship, and I was not going to be anything but completely honest going forward, no matter the cost.

At first he was surprised at how direct I was. He felt angry, even.

But then he said he started listening to what I was saying, instead of getting irritated by how I said it. He said he found himself learning a lot. He said that my directness made living with me easy, because he never had to guess what I was thinking or feeling.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Taking some time before dating again might be helpful, OP.
> 
> For myself, I was transparent from the beginning with my husband. I had come out of a bad relationship, and I was not going to be anything but completely honest going forward, no matter the cost.
> 
> At first he was surprised at how direct I was. He felt angry, even.
> 
> But then he said he started listening to what I was saying, instead of getting irritated by how I said it. He said he found himself learning a lot. He said that my directness made living with me easy, because he never had to guess what I was thinking or feeling.


No doubt. It's just hard as not many friends around where I live. I'll just start taking up a hobby or something. I've always tried to be upfront when I dated with everything. I am quite direct as well. Over the past few years, with my wife's encouragement, I've softened a bit. However, there is no doubt I will be in a once bitten, twice shy frame of mind. It's just a shame, that is all.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sounds like you have a plan. Personally I'd walk away from a pile of $$$$$ if it meant one less day living with toxic people. Your threshold for pain and stink must be considerably higher than mine.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> No doubt. It's just hard as not many friends around where I live. I'll just start taking up a hobby or something. I've always tried to be upfront when I dated with everything. I am quite direct as well. Over the past few years, with my wife's encouragement, I've softened a bit. However, there is no doubt I will be in a once bitten, twice shy frame of mind. It's just a shame, that is all.


No rush, OP. Look for honesty. Insist on it, even if it hurts your feelings to hear it.


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## tech-novelist

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sounds like you have a plan. Personally I'd walk away from a pile of $$$$$ if it meant one less day living with toxic people. Your threshold for pain and stink must be considerably higher than mine.


Yes, that reminds me of the old joke: "Why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it."


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## 225985

MIJ, How was Valentine's Day at the in-laws?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Boring and very non-eventful. MIL bought us some Valentine's candy. When we got home, I gave it to my wife and told her she can have both. I did try one more time on the way home to get her to communicate. She was mum. She doesn't know what to say or do she says. She's "trying" she said. I said what are you trying to do? You are putting zero effort into the relationship, and it will fail. Do you want me to leave? Perhaps. It may be good for you to be alone and on your own for a while. This arrangement we have just is not working. She's quiet. Then says, I do not mean to make you angry. I said, I am not angry, just have a lot of thinking to do and decisions I have to make. Turned the radio up and continued on with the drive. She touched my arm and looked at a me several times, but, it's just a shame. She NEEDS to talk to me. Not to her therapist. Not to her mom. TO ME. What is so hard to understand and comprehend? I just do not get her game plan.

We got home and I went to do my exercise and relaxation technique. I needed her help to lay something out, she said she's too tired and went to sleep. I tell you, this one is for the books. I've never seen a person put so little into a relationship, but expect it to magically work itself out w/o talking to each other. I literally cannot get her to talk about anything about the relationship. Anything else is fair game. She has to think after my suggestions of her moving out for a time being what may be coming down the pike. Plan is to move forward with my timeline I laid out a few days ago. 

Such a disappointment; in myself and her. I do not know how a woman who was so supportive and helpful a few years ago turned into this. It is what it is, but it still breaks my heart to have to go through with something that should be easily fixable if she would actually talk and tell me what's on her mind, instead of twisting the truth to her mom and the therapist. Crazy.

How was your Valentine's Day? Hopefully better than mine.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sounds like she didn't want to say "yes, I want to move out". So she just touched your arm and said nothing, hoping that would be easier on you. IDK


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Forgot to add, she did say, where would I go? I responded, not sure. Your parents? Then she was silent.


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## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Forgot to add, she did say, where would I go? I responded, not sure. Your parents? Then she was silent.


Wow. Just wow.

So she knows the jigs up... and it's just down to where?

That's sad. But at least you know the answer, right?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Down to divorce. I was hoping that would get her to at least open up and work with me. So far, no change. I came home from work today and she was on the phone with her mom. I heard her mom say oh he's there, did you need to hang up with me? She said it's okay. I guess she forgot my hearing is pretty good. Tonight's VAR should be a good one.

I honestly believe I tried every avenue here. I suggested another therapist for both of us, she wasn't in to it. She just wants her own. I said just talk to me and tell me what you and us need? I don't know is the response I get. I do not see any other solution here that I can take aside from the dreaded divorce.


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## TheTruthHurts

Maybe it's time to talk about the fears of divorce then. Maybe say I know you think I can't make you happy and want to leave but are afraid of divorce.

You know I don't want divorce but am not afraid of it.

Tell me your biggest fear. Why are you paralyzed and unable to say you want a divorce? What are you most afraid of?

IDK maybe if you can get that conversation started you can at least work toward a divorce where you don't get totally screwed and she realizes you aren't a china doll that will crack if she's honest


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I did start talking about winding us down and saying have you thought of places to move to? She looked in utter shock. She said stop saying that, you're making me feel upset. I said, I am just dealing with reality here in the fact that I lost my spouse, my partner, and I've come to terms with this. It's not nice what you are saying. What did I say that is not nice? We're not a real good fit, and I've tried everything, but nothing seems to work. Silence again. She then went back to watching her movie.

I am slowly building into this. Hoping that maybe she'll turn and tell me what WE can do to turn this around. I'm not into ultimatums, despite what she says to her mom and therapist. She has choices. We can either work on this TOGETHER, or we file for divorce. She can choose. I, for some crazy reason, still love her deeply. However, I just cannot go on this way. It's not fair for me, it's not fair for her.

However, I will say, she's all high, mighty and tough on the VARs with her mom and the therapist about leaving when SHE wants. However, when brought to her attention head on, she pauses and takes a step back. 

Which is it? Just a few days ago, she said (VAR) the therapist said she should hang with her friends and get away from me as much as possible. In addition, the therapist said she should get her own place. She said, it's easier said than done, and she's not sure or ready. Yet, several times to her mom (VAR) she has said she should had left or she should move into an apt. Why the change of heart?

I see she's confused, but not talking to me just pushes her away even more. She complained again, that my personal cabinet was locked. I said, I told you where the key is, it's in the side draw. Every time she's looking for a dig, there is an answer; which is the truth. So, I have no idea where her mind is going with things. Makes little sense what she is saying to her mom and the therapist.


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## TheTruthHurts

It's crystal clear but you're not getting it.


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## TheTruthHurts

Sometimes people sh1t all over stuff in their life - but when confronted with losing it - wake the fack up.

That's why she is acting this way. She thinks it's up to her.

Let her know it's up to YOU.

Then she might take it seriously and try to win you back.

If not, let her go


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## farsidejunky

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sometimes people sh1t all over stuff in their life - but when confronted with losing it - wake the fack up.
> 
> That's why she is acting this way. She thinks it's up to her.
> 
> Let her know it's up to YOU.
> 
> Then she might take it seriously and try to win you back.
> 
> If not, let her go


Can you elaborate on this, please?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Well, an interesting VAR today. Apparently, my wife was in an accident this morning, but didn't bother to tell me. Told her mom, but not me. There was some bad weather, and she was upset I didn't contact her see if she was okay. I thought she was over-reacting a bit just because I didn't call her to see if she was okay in some sleet (she has a brand new car, didn't think I needed too.) She tells her mom she was in an accident, but okay. The car was hit and needs some bodywork and paint. The mom says, did you tell your husband? She said, I do not want to ask him for anything. Nonetheless, I walked to the car and it was pretty bad. I asked her why she didn't tell me, she said, well, you said the weather wasn't that bad. WTF? 

The wife and mom were talking, not the greatest about me. The mom said I have to change, and the wife agreed. Yet, again, they do not say what. All that she will not move back into the bedroom because I like one side, and she likes the other. Or that she moves and snores, etc. Then she said I told her she was sleepwalking once or something. She and her mom think I am crazy (I never said that, she was eating in her sleep, apparently with the food right under her bed.) She then tells the mom about our conversation the other day about moving out for a time being, the mom agreed with me. The wife is unsure, but had started to look for apts., as she feels that I will be throwing her out soon. The mom started cursing me and calling me all bad names. Tells her to speak up to me and tell me what's the problem. She says, she tries but no luck with me. So, tonight, I went to her and said, three times a charm. What am I doing that is upsetting you or ruining the marriage and making you unhappy? Nothing darling. You are good. Tried again. There has to be something that I am doing or saying or acting that is making you upset. No, nothing honey. You are all good.

So, I ask all, this is the third time I've asked her, and she gives me the same old response as nothing. Yet she keeps on ranting and raving to her mom, and over-embellishing things that happened in the past, nothing in the present. She's like stuck in neutral.

Also, the mom thinks she'd be better off with out me, however, she doesn't want to "encourage" her to leave me. The mom and the therapist apparently also say they do not know why she's stayed so long with me. She's apparently upset still, nearly seven years later that I didn't tell her I was Christian until the THIRD date. :surprise: I do not see what the big deal was. Apparently, since my sister's husband had some legal issues, I was supposed to tell her about them in greater detail than I actually know because I see him so often (twice a year). I swear, it's like guilt by association with this one. I do not understand what someone else's actions in life have to do with me. I didn't do it, why am I being held to the cross?

I still think her daily talks with her mom is doing more hurting than helping.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sometimes people sh1t all over stuff in their life - but when confronted with losing it - wake the fack up.
> 
> That's why she is acting this way. She thinks it's up to her.
> 
> Let her know it's up to YOU.
> 
> Then she might take it seriously and try to win you back.
> 
> If not, let her go


Certainly possible. However, if I go through with giving her the papers, one I will feel the whata, coulda, shoulda feelings in my head. In addition, if she just stops talking to her mom about us, I think that would be of great help. One thing I tell you is that I will not be going to that house of her parents again. The mom is planning to ambush me on something in terms of the commute. It seems I just have too many things against me here. It's hard to fight a MIL who seems to be stabbing you in the back when you are not in front of her, and "kind and sweet" when you are. If the wife has a problem, she should talk to me directly, and not through the mom and therapist.


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## TheTruthHurts

I just don't understand.

I would never accept this - even for a single night.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda what???? Been more of a door mat? Been disrespected more? Had a more pathetic spouse for longer?

I've got to be honest. Based on what you've told us about her VAR comments, followed by your weak and spineless reactions to them, I wonder if you're not the problem after all.

Seriously, anyone sho had this much s$it flung at them this long and yet insists all is ok must be a huge part of the problem.

You must be conveying something very different to W than you convey to us.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Umm, no, just was trying to keep the marriage together. Remember the vows, for better or worse. That is what I've been trying to do. In addition, these are the things she saying to her mom, not to me via the VARs. I am not supposed to even know about what crap she's throwing against me with her mom. This is one of the reasons why I then took that information, and then asked her about it to her face to see if I can get the same response. The response, as posted before, is nothing, you're fine. With that information said, what else can I do. I hear the conversations, I approach her on them, and then she denies it. What am I supposed to do, play the VARs in front of her and say, then why did you say this, this and that to your mom on Feb. 15?

I mean, come on. Be realistic here in terms of how I can handle things. I am not a doormat. On the contrary, ask my wife, and she thinks I am an a$$hole who cannot change (I've posted this several times already).


----------



## tech-novelist

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Umm, no, just was trying to keep the marriage together. Remember the vows, for better or worse. That is what I've been trying to do.


I think it should be obvious, but apparently isn't to everyone, that "for better or worse" refers to problems arising outside the couple, not abuse of one by the other (or both by each other, I suppose).

You can't have a marriage where only one person is willing to work on it and the other blames that one for all the problems, even if indirectly.

But even more relevant in this case is that you can't fix her problems. Only she can do that, and only if she is willing to put in the work to do it, which she isn't.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Forgot to add, she did say, where would I go? I responded, not sure. Your parents? Then she was silent.


I may be wrong, but the "where would I go?" comment does NOT AT ALL sound like she WANTS to move out.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

blueinbr said:


> MarriageInJeopardy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Forgot to add, she did say, where would I go? I responded, not sure. Your parents? Then she was silent.
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong, but the "where would I go?" comment does NOT AT ALL sound like she WANTS to move out.
Click to expand...

Agree but it also sounds like she is WAY more interested in having a roof over her head than being with this particular housemate under the roof. It makes OP sound like "plan housing" rather than plan a or plan b - which is frankly possibly the worst spousal response I've heard yet on TAM from a spouse that pretends to be ok with the marriage.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Umm, no, just was trying to keep the marriage together. Remember the vows, for better or worse. That is what I've been trying to do. In addition, these are the things she saying to her mom, not to me via the VARs. I am not supposed to even know about what crap she's throwing against me with her mom. This is one of the reasons why I then took that information, and then asked her about it to her face to see if I can get the same response. The response, as posted before, is nothing, you're fine. With that information said, what else can I do. I hear the conversations, I approach her on them, and then she denies it. What am I supposed to do, play the VARs in front of her and say, then why did you say this, this and that to your mom on Feb. 15?
> 
> I mean, come on. Be realistic here in terms of how I can handle things. I am not a doormat. On the contrary, ask my wife, and she thinks I am an a$$hole who cannot change (I've posted this several times already).


MIJ, Your actions with the VAR are leading your right to divorce. You are *reacting* to the information, not being proactive. That will lead only to divorce. 

Have you not noticed that your wife is lying to BOTH you and her mom? Use that to your advantage.

This weekend, YOU suggest to wife that both of you go visit MIL. Then with MIL present, you have the talk. You tell wife, and MIL, that you are having serious marriage problems, that divorce is possible, that you do not want divorce, that you want to know what you can do better, how to change etc, what is bothering her. Very calmly. Then, ask MOM (her mom) for her help. The point here is to force wife to lie to you or her mom but she cannot tell two sides of the story at the same time. If she says no problem, MOM will know it is a lie. You want her to open up, that is your best and only option.

You have nothing to lose but I fear you will not do this because you avoid conflict with MIL and therapist. You talk bold "mini intervention for example" but then talk yourself out of it with excuses. Now you fear MIL will "ambush" you about the commute. WTF man! You have nothing to lose and if it goes badly at least you will not be stuck with the "whata, coulda, shoulda" feelings.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Tells her to speak up to me and tell me what's the problem. She says, she tries but no luck with me.


This is why are you are going to have that talk with wife IN FRONT OF MIL THIS WEEKEND.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, Your actions with the VAR are leading your right to divorce. You are *reacting* to the information, not being proactive. That will lead only to divorce.
> 
> Have you not noticed that your wife is lying to BOTH you and her mom? Use that to your advantage.
> 
> This weekend, YOU suggest to wife that both of you go visit MIL. Then with MIL present, you have the talk. You tell wife, and MIL, that you are having serious marriage problems, that divorce is possible, that you do not want divorce, that you want to know what you can do better, how to change etc, what is bothering her. Very calmly. Then, ask MOM (her mom) for her help. The point here is to force wife to lie to you or her mom but she cannot tell two sides of the story at the same time. If she says no problem, MOM will know it is a lie. You want her to open up, that is your best and only option.
> 
> You have nothing to lose but I fear you will not do this because you avoid conflict with MIL and therapist. You talk bold "mini intervention for example" but then talk yourself out of it with excuses. Now you fear MIL will "ambush" you about the commute. WTF man! You have nothing to lose and if it goes badly at least you will not be stuck with the "whata, coulda, shoulda" feelings.


Easier said than done as you know. Walking into the parent's home in Newark, NJ, sitting down at the table and telling the mom and the dad their daughter is a liar is probably not the smartest thing. If you heard the cursing out of the mom's mouth about me over the VAR, you'd be surprised. This is from a woman who, in front of me, doesn't curse at all. It will be a bit too worrisome for me to go alone. I have no problem confronting my wife one on one. However, three on one, yea, there's an issue there. I do not need it turning into a fist fight or something else. And yes, with her dad, it can go that way. Knowing my luck, the wife or the MIL will get hurt, then I'd get sued. 

I can only be reactive in terms of what I am hearing. I cannot be proactive as she will not talk to me directly. However, everything she said on the most recent VAR I addressed, and defeated each one of her claims. She was speechless. I said, you always assume the worst, when in fact, it is not the entire picture. It seems like she doesn't trust anyone. In fact, I even said, you cannot go around trusting no one aside from your parents. She said, well, I trust my best friend. Yes, but not your spouse. You do not find an issue with that? You keep secrets. What about your locked cabinet? She was harping on my locked cabinet. I showed her where the key was. It's been in the same place it has been for months when I showed her previously. Then she says, how do I know you didn't just put it there ? In 5 seconds? I really do not think anything will make her happy. Nonetheless, everything was addressed, and then found that she was, again, mistaken. I know it was probably a fruitless task, but I felt it had to be done. 

I guess, in my mind, if I defuse each BS issue, maybe it will change the way she thinks. More and more, I just do not think it will. Thus, the closer we get to D-Day.


----------



## 225985

MIJ, What I suggested will not be easy, but it is easier than divorce. Your prior talks with W have been in YOUR home turf - YOUR apartment or YOUR car on way home from MIL. Now you are going to give her home turf at the place she trusts most with the people she trusts most - her parents.

I never suggested you accuse her of lying during the talk. You got that all wrong. Quite the opposite, you are going to thoroughly open yourself and ask what you can do to change (even if you do not mean it. You want her to talk). This battle will not be fought with logic. If you do, you will not win. It needs to be an emotional battle. Your objective is to get her to talk and you are to active listen only, without bringing up the Doritos incident. Read again what I suggested. 

I get it. You are conflict avoiding. You are ok with confronting wife when you have upper hand of logic and it's just one on one. Well, my friend, that has not worked despite your repeated attempts and it will not work in the future. Don't you see that. Even the playing field. Otherwise all this VAR crap is just wasting your time. Turn off the VAR and give her the papers once taxes are done because your path is leading nowhere but to divorce.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I completely agree with blue!

Mij you are a passive spectator in all this - "I can't possibly do anything but ask and when she says nothing is wrong there is nothing else I can do"

Sorry but I call bs. I am sorry to say it but you are weak, weak, weak. You don't even see it. You think that by reflecting and asking a few questions you are DOING something. But you're NOT.

Why won't you act? I don't understand. I completely agree YOU are driving this marriage to divorce.

As I stated many times I would have left her a long time ago because I have no tolerance for liars... but you want to stay married. If that's the case DO SOMETHING!

"Easier said than done". Is a bs cop out.

No it's easier to live your life than let others make decisions and then you drive right into the lake using their directions.

You have 2 GREAT options - you could implement them immediately!

1- confront! Say I know you are lying about me with your mom behind my back. Your reluctance to do this for fear of exposure of your VAR us only FEAR on your part. Look - this happens EVERY DAY. People talk about others everywhere - when I encounter it about Me at work - I confront! I NEVER reveal my sources and have no qualms about saying it's none of your business. People who are duplicitous know they are exposed - so you only have to say "you're pretty transparent" and they go into defensive mode. There is no reason NOT to use the VAR information at this point unless you WANT divorce. And never reveal it.

2 - do as blue says. This is similar to a skewer in chess or a pin. You are attacking the piece (W) using 2 different pieces (you and MIL) so she has no room to move. Very very common move in games but also in real life.

Both are completely ethical - you are only forcing your W to come clean.

Your attitude that you can not act is perhaps why your marriage has ended up here I am afraid.

I really hope you think about this and choose to act to save your marriage - because you seem to want to work this out.

And don't say easier said then done, and don't offer a long defense as to why you can not possibly act.

Just say I'm too scared to act and too uncomfortable with conflict. I'd rather lose my marriage than deal with conflict.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> *Help.*


MIJ, Look at your last word from your first post.

Other than the VAR or divorce, have you tried any advice offered to you? This is honest question. I am not being facetious.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Blue, you are right, so I went over to my wife this morning and said I think we should bring your mom into this conversation. She looked at me with two heads. She said, you want to talk to my mom about us? Yes. NO NO NO NO NO!!!! I cannot talk to my mom about our sex lives. Since you will not talk to me, with you mom there, maybe you will feel more comfortable. I will even take both of you out to dinner. NO!!! You cannot force me do this. It has to be a joint decision. I will go alone then. Don't you dare. You CANNOT do this. I do not feel comfortable. I can discuss it with your father present if you prefer. NO! I will never agree to this. I won't let you do this. You are really annoying about this. Stop annoying me with this.

Then she left for work.

I cannot get by with anything with her support.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> I completely agree with blue!
> 
> Mij you are a passive spectator in all this - "I can't possibly do anything but ask and when she says nothing is wrong there is nothing else I can do"
> 
> Sorry but I call bs. I am sorry to say it but you are weak, weak, weak. You don't even see it. You think that by reflecting and asking a few questions you are DOING something. But you're NOT.
> 
> Why won't you act? I don't understand. I completely agree YOU are driving this marriage to divorce.
> 
> As I stated many times I would have left her a long time ago because I have no tolerance for liars... but you want to stay married. If that's the case DO SOMETHING!
> 
> "Easier said than done". Is a bs cop out.
> 
> No it's easier to live your life than let others make decisions and then you drive right into the lake using their directions.
> 
> You have 2 GREAT options - you could implement them immediately!
> 
> 1- confront! Say I know you are lying about me with your mom behind my back. Your reluctance to do this for fear of exposure of your VAR us only FEAR on your part. Look - this happens EVERY DAY. People talk about others everywhere - when I encounter it about Me at work - I confront! I NEVER reveal my sources and have no qualms about saying it's none of your business. People who are duplicitous know they are exposed - so you only have to say "you're pretty transparent" and they go into defensive mode. There is no reason NOT to use the VAR information at this point unless you WANT divorce. And never reveal it.
> 
> 2 - do as blue says. This is similar to a skewer in chess or a pin. You are attacking the piece (W) using 2 different pieces (you and MIL) so she has no room to move. Very very common move in games but also in real life.
> 
> Both are completely ethical - you are only forcing your W to come clean.
> 
> Your attitude that you can not act is perhaps why your marriage has ended up here I am afraid.
> 
> I really hope you think about this and choose to act to save your marriage - because you seem to want to work this out.
> 
> And don't say easier said then done, and don't offer a long defense as to why you can not possibly act.
> 
> Just say I'm too scared to act and too uncomfortable with conflict. I'd rather lose my marriage than deal with conflict.


I believe I am acting the best I can. Cannot really go with the VARs, as since she doesn't know about them, that is kinda against the state laws. Would be pretty dumb to show that to her. It could get me into a lot of legal trouble. Her father is a cop for Pete sake. How am I not acting. I believe I've taken a lot of advice here and ran with it. Granted, ran into a brick wall, but ran with it nonetheless. What haven't I done?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Why do you need her support? Why are you giving her all the power? She is responding exactly like blue and I suspected. So now go and talk. Be the man in the relationship. You don't need her permission to live your life.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

It's not against the law. You don't have any recordings, do you? No


----------



## farsidejunky

Her charade is about to come tumbling down.

I suggest you follow their advice, MIJ.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, Look at your last word from your first post.
> 
> Other than the VAR or divorce, have you tried any advice offered to you? This is honest question. I am not being facetious.


Wanted to get another therapist for MC, she said no, she will not go. Tried to go to her counseling sessions, no I cannot go. Tried to talk and listen to her, no, she will not share. Tried to talk about it with her and her mom, she went crazy. Read all the books, or in process of the books to better myself. Started the 180 to better myself. If I missed something, and it is possible, this thread is several pages, please tell me.

If I am the problem, tell me how.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> It's not against the law. You don't have any recordings, do you? No


I assure you, in NJ, it is. They are erased daily.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Why do you need her support? Why are you giving her all the power? She is responding exactly like blue and I suspected. So now go and talk. Be the man in the relationship. You don't need her permission to live your life.


If she will not come, how am I supposed to do this? Go myself?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

What brick wall????? What brick wall?????? Does she make all the decisions in the family? Don't you make any of your own decisions?

You will never change your marriage unless you DO something. Physically go to MIL. Tell W I am going over at xxx time one xxxx day.

She will scream I won't let you. Say I am going with or without you. She will panic and have to go to keep the truth from coming out.

She should not "let" you do anything ever. You do and she does


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> Her charade is about to come tumbling down.
> 
> I suggest you follow their advice, MIJ.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Certainly trying.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not against the law. You don't have any recordings, do you? No
> 
> 
> 
> I assure you, in NJ, it is. They are erased daily.
Click to expand...

You've got to be kidding me


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you need her support? Why are you giving her all the power? She is responding exactly like blue and I suspected. So now go and talk. Be the man in the relationship. You don't need her permission to live your life.
> 
> 
> 
> If she will not come, how am I supposed to do this? Go myself?
Click to expand...

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes was this not clear????????? She will go to try to bully you to shut up. So far you have allowed her to bully you. Why don't you stop taking orders from your bully?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> You've got to be kidding me


About what?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes was this not clear????????? She will go to try to bully you to shut up. So far you have allowed her to bully you. Why don't you stop taking orders from your bully?


Trying for things to be joint, not one sided.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> 
> Her charade is about to come tumbling down.
> 
> I suggest you follow their advice, MIJ.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly trying.
Click to expand...

No you are trying to get W to agree with you and trying to get W to do things. Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop

Do something yourself. Go tell MIL the truth. What are you afraid of???? Don't you want to save your marriage?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes was this not clear????????? She will go to try to bully you to shut up. So far you have allowed her to bully you. Why don't you stop taking orders from your bully?
> 
> 
> 
> Trying for things to be joint, not one sided.
Click to expand...


Why????? Oh god why??????

Aren't they one sided already??????

What do you think is going on in your marriage?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> No you are trying to get W to agree with you and trying to get W to do things. Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop
> 
> Do something yourself. Go tell MIL the truth. What are you afraid of???? Don't you want to save your marriage?


I already told her I was going to and she wasn't too happy. I guess, I should just go for broke and go over next Wednesday (the mom has Wednesdays off). Hopefully, she'll be at home.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Why????? Oh god why??????
> 
> Aren't they one sided already??????
> 
> What do you think is going on in your marriage?


Very true.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> No you are trying to get W to agree with you and trying to get W to do things. Stop stop stop stop stop stop stop
> 
> Do something yourself. Go tell MIL the truth. What are you afraid of???? Don't you want to save your marriage?
> 
> 
> 
> I already told her I was going to and she wasn't too happy. I guess, I should just go for broke and go over next Wednesday (the mom has Wednesdays off). Hopefully, she'll be at home.
Click to expand...

Yes! And tell W you are going.

And stop erasing the VAR for gods sake. Just hide them.

You seem to be a very fearful person.

Were you traumatized by an authority figure? I can't imagine anyone so scared as to erase a VAR. No one can prove you have it, can they?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

In all fairness, the last many many posts were a bunch of people telling you to take action and you were talking but not acting.

However, you seemed to think you were acting - though we didn't see it that way.

It makes me wonder if the issues your wife has had with you - where you say you've tried to do several things for her pregnancy - but she claims you haven't... makes me wonder if those discussions were as painful and fruitless as these on TAM have been.

Think about that.

I don't doubt W is off her rocket, but I think you have extreme difficulties acting as well


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Yes! And tell W you are going.
> 
> And stop erasing the VAR for gods sake. Just hide them.
> 
> You seem to be a very fearful person.
> 
> Were you traumatized by an authority figure? I can't imagine anyone so scared as to erase a VAR. No one can prove you have it, can they?


Oh, I have a backup on my thumb drive. The VAR itself is erased daily. Nope. Just if you heard what this MIL said about me and the way she described me, you would know it will be a battle that will not be won. It's a fruitless endeavor. She's team Jenna all the way. She can do no wrong. The mom is 100% sure it's all my fault. She will NOT believe me, and without her there, it will be worse. It looks like I am going behind her back, and the mom will not like that either. This will not be successful. Either way, this will come to an end it seems. It's obvious to my wife that she knows that I know something is up. It has to be. I mean, why not let me come to her therapy sessions or meet with her mom? She knows she's telling her side of the story, and not the truth. Thus, she doesn't want me there.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> In all fairness, the last many many posts were a bunch of people telling you to take action and you were talking but not acting.
> 
> However, you seemed to think you were acting - though we didn't see it that way.
> 
> It makes me wonder if the issues your wife has had with you - where you say you've tried to do several things for her pregnancy - but she claims you haven't... makes me wonder if those discussions were as painful and fruitless as these on TAM have been.
> 
> Think about that.
> 
> I don't doubt W is off her rocket, but I think you have extreme difficulties acting as well



Well, if you consider making calls to OB-GYNs and appointments for us to go see them not effective enough, then I am not sure what else to do. I sent the information to her, she never did anything about it. I then contacted the docs and made the apts, she cancelled them. Then, I was no longer allowed to go to her OB-GYNs with her. I do not see what else I could had done. I do try the non-aggressive approach first. Then, I slowly get more and more aggressive. I just don't jump into high gear instantaneously. Every one moves differently.


----------



## turnera

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, Your actions with the VAR are leading your right to divorce. You are *reacting* to the information, not being proactive. That will lead only to divorce.
> 
> Have you not noticed that your wife is lying to BOTH you and her mom? Use that to your advantage.
> 
> This weekend, YOU suggest to wife that both of you go visit MIL. Then with MIL present, you have the talk. You tell wife, and MIL, that you are having serious marriage problems, that divorce is possible, that you do not want divorce, that you want to know what you can do better, how to change etc, what is bothering her. Very calmly. Then, ask MOM (her mom) for her help. The point here is to force wife to lie to you or her mom but she cannot tell two sides of the story at the same time. If she says no problem, MOM will know it is a lie. You want her to open up, that is your best and only option.
> 
> You have nothing to lose but I fear you will not do this because you avoid conflict with MIL and therapist. You talk bold "mini intervention for example" but then talk yourself out of it with excuses. Now you fear MIL will "ambush" you about the commute. WTF man! You have nothing to lose and if it goes badly at least you will not be stuck with the "whata, coulda, shoulda" feelings.


This is what I would do.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Can't do it Sunday's, the father is there. This will NOT go over well with the father. Plus, he has guns. This is Newark, NJ we're talking about. I really do not feeling like getting shot or pistol whipped. If that makes me a p*zzy, fine, at least I will be in one piece. I'll take my chances with the mom by just stopping by. I will say, listen, I wanted myself, you and Jenna to talk about us together, however, she will not come. May we talk for a few minutes. I just need help with our relationship as well as direction, and go on from there.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Wow you are very fearful and have more excuses than I can believe. You are completely defeatist.

The goal is not to convince MIL of anything and it is not to make your wife do anything.

The goal is to air the truth.

I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what MIL says - your goal is to tell the whole truth, then say "this is why we are probably going to get divorced"

They can spin this anyway they want. You will say it is a sexless marriage. You made appointments with this dr on this date, etc. facts, facts, facts.

Don't allow yourself to be bullied or browbeat.

Your implication that FIL will shoot you for this is beyond ludicrous


----------



## TheTruthHurts

After airing the whole truth, then and only then, you can ask her to help your marriage - but frankly I would never do that.

I'd just say that was the real story. If W wants to stay in this marriage she may need your support to correct some of her issues. Otherwise we'll just end up parting ways


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow you are very fearful and have more excuses than I can believe. You are completely defeatist.
> 
> The goal is not to convince MIL of anything and it is not to make your wife do anything.
> 
> The goal is to air the truth.
> 
> I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what MIL says - your goal is to tell the whole truth, then say "this is why we are probably going to get divorced"
> 
> They can spin this anyway they want. You will say it is a sexless marriage. You made appointments with this dr on this date, etc. facts, facts, facts.
> 
> Don't allow yourself to be bullied or browbeat.
> 
> Your implication that FIL will shoot you for this is beyond ludicrous


You'd be amazed with the shenanigans from these two. I am not a defeatist, just a realist.


----------



## turnera

Some mothers and daughters are just like that - NO bond is tighter than theirs.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

turnera said:


> Some mothers and daughters are just like that - NO bond is tighter than theirs.


No doubt. It's a very strong bond, and that is good for them. However, when the MIL says mean cursive things about me to the wife, it's kinda hard to see here jumping from her daughter's side to neutral. Let's just say, the stuff she said to the wife about me, I cannot repeat here. I figure the wife is using the therapist and the mom as a soundboard. Since I pushing to see either, she feels threatened, thus, her negative reaction to both me seeing with her the therapist and her mom.


----------



## 225985

TheTruthHurts said:


> Wow you are very fearful and have more excuses than I can believe.
> 
> Your implication that FIL will shoot you for this is beyond ludicrous


Well said.


----------



## turnera

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> No doubt. It's a very strong bond, and that is good for them. However, when the MIL says mean cursive things about me to the wife, it's kinda hard to see here jumping from her daughter's side to neutral. Let's just say, the stuff she said to the wife about me, I cannot repeat here. I figure the wife is using the therapist and the mom as a soundboard. Since I pushing to see either, she feels threatened, thus, her negative reaction to both me seeing with her the therapist and her mom.


Oh, I'm not defending them, trust me.

Just warning you that in some cases, even if she WANTED to be on your side, she may not be able to pull away from that draw her mom has on her. I've seen plenty of marriages dissolve because one spouse can't let go of the fear of disappointing that parent.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Interestingly enough, a weird thing happened. She came home and said she spoke to her therapist and her mom and we (all three of them -wife-mom-therapist) feel it is best that we do not have a discussion with her mom and that we separate for a time. I see was my response. She then stated, not legal separation, but just I get my own place and we each have our own space and play it day by day. I said, yea, that's not going to work for me. I then said, I think we should just pull the trigger and divorce if we're going to separate. The chance of this relationship recovering is not very good. This was not how I was told it was to go down. There's no middle with you she said. 

Well, listen, I want you to be happy, I said. I also want to be happy as well. I do not make you happy. You can move out any time you wish. Sooner, rather than later would be best. I will have the papers for you by Friday signed off and notarized. All I need is the same for you, and I will file the papers with the county court. We'll be done within 30 - 60 days. She was a bit bewildered it seems. A bit extreme no? she said. No I said. It's what needs to be done.

- end chat.


I do feel a bit better now. It seems she's still in a bit of shock. Not sure why. I assumed she was trying to call my bluff or something. Not sure. After the initial talk, I was upset, however, it's been a few hours and I know it's best for both of us. It's just not working now, and it's been deteriorating for months, if not a year. If I continue to let it go on, and on, and on, it will get worse. 

I do want to thank all here who've helped me through this whole ordeal. Believe it or not, it was a hard thing for me to do. Part of me is still against this, but, I do not see it repairing anytime soon.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Can you edit that post so we know who said what


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Done.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Well that was perfect. Very simple and direct. good job. 

Stick to your plan. If she tries to undo it, just say "let's stick with this plan. After its all filed there will be time to cancel if we want to but we need to make positive changes in our life and this accomplishes that" or something to distract her.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I am sticking to the plan. I am done with this. I feel my kindness and patience has been used against me. Plus, in the back of my head, I have what she's been saying to her mom about me, and vice versa. It's just not a good mix.

The truth really does hurt, but we all have to face reality. Unfortunately, this is mine (ours).


----------



## 225985

MIJ, I am sorry that you marriage is ending but you know this is for the best. I wish you good luck moving forward. You will be happier I am sure.

You are right that this was weird. Seems like the three of them had an agenda and nothing you did would have changed that. To conclude that talking to you and mom is not for the best is ridiculous. Also what is up with "This was not how I was told it was to go down."? Who told her that? Probably the therapist.

You tried your best and gave her every conceivable option to help fix the marriage and she declined every one. Her loss and she will realize that once the divorce is final.


----------



## jld

I think this is good, MIJ. I especially liked how you said you could not make her happy. You want her to be happy. It cannot be with you, it seems. But because you love her, you are freeing her to be with someone who can.

I certainly could not be married to someone whose trust I could not earn. If I had done everything I could think of to earn that trust, and still could not succeed, I would hang it up, too. And be grateful I lived in a country where divorce is legal.

Wishing you every happiness moving forward.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, I am sorry that you marriage is ending but you know this is for the best. I wish you good luck moving forward. You will be happier I am sure.
> 
> You are right that this was weird. Seems like the three of them had an agenda and nothing you did would have changed that. To conclude that talking to you and mom is not for the best is ridiculous. Also what is up with "This was not how I was told it was to go down."? Who told her that? Probably the therapist.
> 
> You tried your best and gave her every conceivable option to help fix the marriage and she declined every one. Her loss and she will realize that once the divorce is final.


It's just a shame. I mean, why she thought it was not how I was told it was to go down was what her mom and therapist told her how I'd probably react I think. Not sure how two people can tell another person how a different person will react, but it's okay. The good one she said was that she doesn't consider that she's aggressive as I am. Yet, week after week, she tells me the therapist said we're too aggressive personalities which cannot mesh together. WTF? Make up your mind on what you are telling me. Honestly, I just think she's at a point in her life that she's confused. After all, what happened to that child she was so crazy for? Won't separation delay this even more? Do you see what I mean? Everything that should be done, logically or material instinct wise is being avoided/delayed. Her decisions do not match up with her goals. All in all, I feel she wants every one to believe she wants a child or two, but in reality, she doesn't. Now she has a fall guy to blame for no children "yet", me. Life is hard enough. Why continue to complicate it with these riddles??

Very strange.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I think this is good, MIJ. I especially liked how you said you could not make her happy. You want her to be happy. It cannot be with you, it seems. But because you love her, you are freeing her to be with someone who can.
> 
> I certainly could not be married to someone whose trust I could not earn. If I had done everything I could think of to earn that trust, and still could not succeed, I would hang it up, too. And be grateful I lived in a country where divorce is legal.
> 
> Wishing you every happiness moving forward.


Appreciate the support JLD. I do still very much love and care for her, and I feel that she, on some level, loves and cares for me. However, the in-love part has been fading fast. Possibly faster on her end than mine. I've tried everything to "earn" her trust. Every thing she said I did to damage the trust in me from her was incorrect on how she interpreted it. On each issue, I showed her and proved to her I wasn't lying or hiding anything. I've never lied to her. In fact, she says, that is true. If I (she) asks the right questions, I (me) will not lie. Apparently, it's a one way street. I should tell her everything, but she can be selective in what she says to me. In addition, I am supposed to know in advance and tell her before the fact instead of after. WTF??? How is that even possible? She's said several times to me in person as well as to her mom that she trusts no one aside from her parents and her best friend. There alone tells me that this marriage cannot work. No trust = no marriage. Simple as that. Thus, I feel the main issues are in her head. I am told all the issues are mine, not hers and she's right, I am 100% wrong. 

I need a vacation after she moves out... I am going to try hypnotism to try and forget about her. Anyone know if this works?


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Appreciate the support JLD. I do still very much love and care for her, and I feel that she, on some level, loves and cares for me. However, the in-love part has been fading fast. Possibly faster on her end than mine. I've tried everything to "earn" her trust. Every thing she said I did to damage the trust in me from her was incorrect on how she interpreted it. On each issue, I showed her and proved to her I wasn't lying or hiding anything. I've never lied to her. In fact, she says, that is true. If I (she) asks the right questions, I (me) will not lie. Apparently, it's a one way street. I should tell her everything, but she can be selective in what she says to me. In addition, I am supposed to know in advance and tell her before the fact instead of after. WTF??? How is that even possible? She's said several times to me in person as well as to her mom that she trusts no one aside from her parents and her best friend. There alone tells me that this marriage cannot work. No trust = no marriage. Simple as that. Thus, I feel the main issues are in her head. I am told all the issues are mine, not hers and she's right, I am 100% wrong.
> 
> I need a vacation after she moves out... I am going to try hypnotism to try and forget about her. Anyone know if this works?


How about IC and a vacation to someplace warm?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I do like the warm part. I do not feel I need IC. I am not depressed or stressed out. I feel a bit of relief. However, I will not lie and say it doesn't bother me that the marriage, that seemed to start up well and strong ended up as a failure. I've been reading a lot over the past few weeks (thanks to you guys). I can see, and I already should have known, give an inch, they learn to expect a yard. Give a foot, they expect a mile. Going to fix that a bit. See, when she moved in, she helped. As she settled in, she stopped going food shopping, help cleaning up, going out. Since someone was always going to do it anyway (me), why should she over exert herself. That is not fair. If I am living with someone, they need to do their fair share unless they are sick or disabled. She's neither. I guess, she thought I didn't have the balls to follow through. Well, we know how that played out. Penny wise, pound foolish.

I just need to stop giving people the continuous benefit of the doubt and place my needs ahead of others. I know it is cliche, but I am more a giver than a taker. I guess, I need to even that out more. I consider this a learning event.

I can see though, I will be a bit lonely for a good while. Since I am in a place not close to friends, social life will be near non-existent. It's okay. Perhaps that is what I need for the time being. Peace and solitude. Hopefully, something will change down the line. I will start taking Yoga and other exercising classes. Perhaps I will meet people that way. Meeting people in your late 30's is not very easy. Jenna has friends and has above-average looks. She'll probably pickup up faster than me. She feels the opposite, but I know she will be better off without me, and ultimately vice-versa. While I do want a child, I want a family too. I do not want to have a baby mama. I feel that is what this would had eventually turned into. Am I right, I am not sure.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I am going to try hypnotism to try and forget about her. Anyone know if this works?


MIJ, I have been and still am trying to forget someone. In Dec I downloaded a few hypno sesssions at cost of $10-14 each (5-6 on different topics, all related to what you are seeking) from Hypnosis Downloads | Online Self Hypnosis MP3 Audio & Scripts Center . Mixed results for me. I am very analytical, running non stop scenarios in my head, so in general hypnosis is more difficult for me. I have not really followed through with listening to the sessions daily. I joined TAM instead to address my situation and that has helped but still not enough for me. I need to restart the hyno sessions this weekend. Thanks for the reminder.

I also have been reading lots of ebooks. I got a very good kindle download from Amazon called "How To Fall Out Of Love" by Dr. Debora Phillips that teaches thought stopping. Like the hypnos, I need to revisit that. It will work if I follow it. Well worth the $10 IMO. I joined Amazon's $9.99/month unlimited ebook plan so I have read many. Not every ebook is part of that plan however. 

You won't forget about her short term, but the ebook I referenced can help you think about her less often, which really is what you want.


----------



## 225985

Are you still doing the VARs or are you now done with her so that VARs no longer matter?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Please reread post 495 of yours and single out the covert contracts you have engaged in.

You're blaming basically everyone else in advance for not meeting your needs by reciprocating your efforts in a relationship.

This sounds very passive aggressive.

I hope you can spot this - if not, ask.

You will need to address this before you can have a healthy relationship.

I'll give you a hint: the phrase "putting my needs above others". You don't know this to be true. You may choose to do things for others, but 1) you assume this meets others needs which is probably not the case and 2) the inference is that others will deduce your needs and do things for you.

I know you will tend to read this defensively - that's natural. But please explore this.

A healthy version might look like this: "if I live with someone, I have certain needs and expectations about x, y, z (NOT "helping out" - that's way too vague). I realize, based on past relationships, that others aren't as concerned about these things. So I will be sure to say I need these things to feel x, y, z and do z (feel comfortable in a clean house; eat healthy food; save money versus eating out all the time). I'll also ask for help in these areas, and if my significant other isn't helping enough to meet my needs, I'll keep working on my communication to convey to them that this is a real need and if it's not met I will get resentful"

We all assume others "get us" but sadly we're always wrong unless we are specific and keep trying to communicate. Something I'm working on too

Good luck


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Are you still doing the VARs or are you now done with her so that VARs no longer matter?


For now, yes. When she signs the papers, I will cease.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Please reread post 495 of yours and single out the covert contracts you have engaged in.
> 
> You're blaming basically everyone else in advance for not meeting your needs by reciprocating your efforts in a relationship.
> 
> This sounds very passive aggressive.
> 
> I hope you can spot this - if not, ask.
> 
> You will need to address this before you can have a healthy relationship.
> 
> I'll give you a hint: the phrase "putting my needs above others". You don't know this to be true. You may choose to do things for others, but 1) you assume this meets others needs which is probably not the case and 2) the inference is that others will deduce your needs and do things for you.
> 
> I know you will tend to read this defensively - that's natural. But please explore this.
> 
> A healthy version might look like this: "if I live with someone, I have certain needs and expectations about x, y, z (NOT "helping out" - that's way too vague). I realize, based on past relationships, that others aren't as concerned about these things. So I will be sure to say I need these things to feel x, y, z and do z (feel comfortable in a clean house; eat healthy food; save money versus eating out all the time). I'll also ask for help in these areas, and if my significant other isn't helping enough to meet my needs, I'll keep working on my communication to convey to them that this is a real need and if it's not met I will get resentful"
> 
> We all assume others "get us" but sadly we're always wrong unless we are specific and keep trying to communicate. Something I'm working on too
> 
> Good luck


Going to have to disagree with you on that. Leaving a room an utter mess. Not cleaning up after finishing lunch/dinner. Leaving plates in the dishwasher for days on end. These are not things that someone else should have to do. I left for three days once, and the dishes were piled up in the sink. We have a perfectly good dishwasher that works very well. It's about a foot away from the sink. I do not think is it abnormal to see that the plates, utensils, cups, etc. get into there. They are not going to move themselves. I asked why couldn't you put this stuff in the dishwasher, oh, I didn't notice. You didn't notice for three days? Yea, I walked right past it. How did it get here? She says she put it there. Magazines and mail all over the place. Come on. This is basic stuff. I should had known when her apt was an utter pig sty. Often, I would clean her place because it was a mess. There was no where to sit, boxes everywhere, mail everywhere. Sink filed to the brim with pots and pans. 

As for taking care of her needs in front of mine? Hmm, where to start. She's too tired, so I order food just for her AND she asks me to pick it up. She's too tired to go to the dry cleaners. She has no time to get the car fixed, can I do it. I am so tired, I do not want to drive to my parents, can you drive for me? I do not know how to get a prior-approval from the doc, can you do it? I do not like dealing with insurance companies (she's in the medical field for crying out loud).

I am asking for SIMPLE things here. When she first moved in, these where much better. Slowly, they've gotten worse and worse. Yet, herself, body, clean as a whistle. Shows twice a day. I do not think I am honestly asking for too much. Perhaps I should had taken her messiness as a clue at her apt. However, she said she'd not do that at my apt. Alas, this was a falsity. I am not passive-aggressive. I've brought this to her attention numerous times. I just did it myself as it wasn't worth the effort in discussing it with her. Goes in one ear, out the other.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, I have been and still am trying to forget someone. In Dec I downloaded a few hypno sesssions at cost of $10-14 each (5-6 on different topics, all related to what you are seeking) from Hypnosis Downloads | Online Self Hypnosis MP3 Audio & Scripts Center . Mixed results for me. I am very analytical, running non stop scenarios in my head, so in general hypnosis is more difficult for me. I have not really followed through with listening to the sessions daily. I joined TAM instead to address my situation and that has helped but still not enough for me. I need to restart the hyno sessions this weekend. Thanks for the reminder.
> 
> I also have been reading lots of ebooks. I got a very good kindle download from Amazon called "How To Fall Out Of Love" by Dr. Debora Phillips that teaches thought stopping. Like the hypnos, I need to revisit that. It will work if I follow it. Well worth the $10 IMO. I joined Amazon's $9.99/month unlimited ebook plan so I have read many. Not every ebook is part of that plan however.
> 
> You won't forget about her short term, but the ebook I referenced can help you think about her less often, which really is what you want.


Picked up the book from Amazon. Thank you. It looks like a short read. I will check out the other links as well.


----------



## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Going to have to disagree with you on that. Leaving a room an utter mess. Not cleaning up after finishing lunch/dinner. Leaving plates in the dishwasher for days on end. These are not things that someone else should have to do. I left for three days once, and the dishes were piled up in the sink. We have a perfectly good dishwasher that works very well. It's about a foot away from the sink. I do not think is it abnormal to see that the plates, utensils, cups, etc. get into there. They are not going to move themselves. I asked why couldn't you put this stuff in the dishwasher, oh, I didn't notice. You didn't notice for three days? Yea, I walked right past it. How did it get here? She says she put it there. Magazines and mail all over the place. Come on. This is basic stuff. I should had known when her apt was an utter pig sty. Often, I would clean her place because it was a mess. There was no where to sit, boxes everywhere, mail everywhere. Sink filed to the brim with pots and pans.
> 
> As for taking care of her needs in front of mine? Hmm, where to start. She's too tired, so I order food just for her AND she asks me to pick it up. She's too tired to go to the dry cleaners. She has no time to get the car fixed, can I do it. I am so tired, I do not want to drive to my parents, can you drive for me? I do not know how to get a prior-approval from the doc, can you do it? I do not like dealing with insurance companies


Do you know who is to blame for all of this? We are. (By we, I mean that I do the same as you.) We do not know how to say no, then we resent having to do these acts of service. We trained out wives to be this way, or they trained us. Does not matter. Same result. 

Don't make the same mistake next time. Learn to say "No" when appropriate. It is healthy. Your needs and next GF/wife needs should be of equal importance. No more rescuing. No more just giving. And no more cleaning the GF's apartment :smile2:


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

No doubt, I take blame for this. I made it too comfortable for her. The old saying, no good deed goes unpunished, but often unnoticed. I think I have mild OCD, where I like things clean and organized. I know, I should be burned at the stake.

I do not resent her as much as a little appreciation and help would all I would like. After all, I do/did the same for her when she, once in a blue moon, did the same.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

I just disagree but I don't think you see my point so I'll try again.

Leaving dishes and clothes piled everywhere - this is VERY COMMON! No - it is NOT true that everyone sees this as wrong.

I've lived with very nice considerate people who were this way. They honestly don't notice this stuff - IT LITERALLY DOESNT BOTHER THEM! Believe that,

In my own home I am that way A LOT!!! I have a lot on my mind and my wife is a codependent care taker like you, so she just takes care of it. Personally I would absolutely live with that crap and have a happy fun house with kids intellectually stimulated, be relaxing in front of Netflix with a kid or two and ideally the wife - BUT SHE IS MORE BOTHERED BY TGE CRAP AND CLEANS INSTEAD!

So your assumptions are categorically wrong - that is the whole point of learning what is important to someone else.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

So let's talk solutions... If you want a clean house but your other puts that at a low priority, you can

1) clean and caretaker alone and build resentment

2) successfully work with the other to express your needs and continually remind them to help - but this will have to be continual

3) try and fail to work with your other because they value something more and barely have time for their needs

4) identify areas where you and other have mismatched needs, and hire out help to address the out of balance effort / reward problem

But you must see this as a problem first.


----------



## 225985

TheTruthHurts said:


> I just disagree but I don't think you see my point so I'll try again.
> 
> Leaving dishes and clothes piled everywhere - this is VERY COMMON! No - it is NOT true that everyone sees this as wrong.
> 
> I've lived with very nice considerate people who were this way. They honestly don't notice this stuff - IT LITERALLY DOESNT BOTHER THEM! Believe that,
> 
> In my own home I am that way A LOT!!! I have a lot on my mind and my wife is a codependent care taker like you, so she just takes care of it. Personally I would absolutely live with that crap and have a happy fun house with kids intellectually stimulated, be relaxing in front of Netflix with a kid or two and ideally the wife - BUT SHE IS MORE BOTHERED BY TGE CRAP AND CLEANS INSTEAD!
> 
> So your assumptions are categorically wrong - that is the whole point of learning what is important to someone else.


Your wife doesn't have time for Netflix as she is too busy cleaning up your mess. You know the mess you leave bothers her but you continue to do it? That does not show respect for her. Haven't YOU learned what is important to YOUR wife?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> I just disagree but I don't think you see my point so I'll try again.
> 
> Leaving dishes and clothes piled everywhere - this is VERY COMMON! No - it is NOT true that everyone sees this as wrong.
> 
> I've lived with very nice considerate people who were this way. They honestly don't notice this stuff - IT LITERALLY DOESNT BOTHER THEM! Believe that,
> 
> In my own home I am that way A LOT!!! I have a lot on my mind and my wife is a codependent care taker like you, so she just takes care of it. Personally I would absolutely live with that crap and have a happy fun house with kids intellectually stimulated, be relaxing in front of Netflix with a kid or two and ideally the wife - BUT SHE IS MORE BOTHERED BY TGE CRAP AND CLEANS INSTEAD!
> 
> So your assumptions are categorically wrong - that is the whole point of learning what is important to someone else.



Respectfully, I disagree. As an example, most people do not leave dishes and things in the sink for three days. I wouldn't say we're in a codependent relationship either. As of right now, and in the last few months, it's more like roommates taking care of themselves, not necessarily together.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

So let's talk solutions... If you want a clean house but your other puts that at a low priority, you can

1) clean and caretaker alone and build resentment 

_*- partially agree.
*_
2) successfully work with the other to express your needs and continually remind them to help - but this will have to be continua

_*- Fully agree.
*_
3) try and fail to work with your other because they value something more and barely have time for their needs

_*- She has time for what SHE dictates is important to her. Her needs are always covered, my needs are not. Whereas, I've tried to always cover her needs first, then focus on mine. Probably should reverse the way I look at things with this one and follow what she's doing.
*_
4) identify areas where you and other have mismatched needs, and hire out help to address the out of balance effort / reward problem

_*- Agreed and this was implemented at an additional cost, which was unnecessary before she moved in.*_


----------



## turnera

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> As for taking care of her needs in front of mine? Hmm, where to start. She's too tired, so I order food just for her AND she asks me to pick it up. She's too tired to go to the dry cleaners. She has no time to get the car fixed, can I do it. I am so tired, I do not want to drive to my parents, can you drive for me? I do not know how to get a prior-approval from the doc, can you do it? I do not like dealing with insurance companies (she's in the medical field for crying out loud).


Well, whose fault is it that you're stuck doing all this?

Clue: not HER!


----------



## TheTruthHurts

blueinbr said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just disagree but I don't think you see my point so I'll try again.
> 
> Leaving dishes and clothes piled everywhere - this is VERY COMMON! No - it is NOT true that everyone sees this as wrong.
> 
> I've lived with very nice considerate people who were this way. They honestly don't notice this stuff - IT LITERALLY DOESNT BOTHER THEM! Believe that,
> 
> In my own home I am that way A LOT!!! I have a lot on my mind and my wife is a codependent care taker like you, so she just takes care of it. Personally I would absolutely live with that crap and have a happy fun house with kids intellectually stimulated, be relaxing in front of Netflix with a kid or two and ideally the wife - BUT SHE IS MORE BOTHERED BY TGE CRAP AND CLEANS INSTEAD!
> 
> So your assumptions are categorically wrong - that is the whole point of learning what is important to someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> Your wife doesn't have time for Netflix as she is too busy cleaning up your mess. You know the mess you leave bothers her but you continue to do it? That does not show respect for her. Haven't YOU learned what is important to YOUR wife?
Click to expand...

Not true but I see how you have reached this conclusion based on the snip it I posted.

She is a caretaker. It's what she does. She doesn't evaluate it and claims she likes it.

"My mess" isn't a mess at all, actually, with 7 people in the house there is always going to be work if you choose to live that way. Alternately, you could ask for help, enjoy the family, leave things alone for a period of time, etc. there are many solutions OTHER than spending 100% of your energy as a maid.

She works on this but it is get program. She always wants to get 1 more thing done. When others are waiting for you or relying on you for something, and instead you decide to do 6 more small tasks that are very low value, then maybe your program is a bit off.

If you are familiar with this pattern you will also be aware that it creates a wake and no one can interject and help. It makes the kids leave because mom is busy and they aren't asked to help and don't know how.

But we're making progress. And where the stuff is not high value or helpful I try to point that out.


----------



## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I do like the warm part. I do not feel I need IC. I am not depressed or stressed out. I feel a bit of relief. However, I will not lie and say it doesn't bother me that the marriage, that seemed to start up well and strong ended up as a failure. I've been reading a lot over the past few weeks (thanks to you guys). I can see, and I already should have known, give an inch, they learn to expect a yard. Give a foot, they expect a mile. Going to fix that a bit. See, when she moved in, she helped. As she settled in, she stopped going food shopping, help cleaning up, going out. Since someone was always going to do it anyway (me), why should she over exert herself. That is not fair. If I am living with someone, they need to do their fair share unless they are sick or disabled. She's neither. I guess, she thought I didn't have the balls to follow through. Well, we know how that played out. Penny wise, pound foolish.
> 
> I just need to stop giving people the continuous benefit of the doubt and place my needs ahead of others. I know it is cliche, but I am more a giver than a taker. I guess, I need to even that out more. I consider this a learning event.
> 
> I can see though, I will be a bit lonely for a good while. Since I am in a place not close to friends, social life will be near non-existent. It's okay. Perhaps that is what I need for the time being. Peace and solitude. Hopefully, something will change down the line. I will start taking Yoga and other exercising classes. Perhaps I will meet people that way. Meeting people in your late 30's is not very easy. Jenna has friends and has above-average looks. She'll probably pickup up faster than me. She feels the opposite, but I know she will be better off without me, and ultimately vice-versa. While I do want a child, I want a family too. I do not want to have a baby mama. I feel that is what this would had eventually turned into. Am I right, I am not sure.


If you feel you need to forget this ever happened through hypnosis just to move on, then you NEED IC.

Sheesh. 

Wipe your memory? Cherish this memory, and all you learned from it.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

turnera said:


> Well, whose fault is it that you're stuck doing all this?
> 
> Clue: not HER!


Of course it's my fault. I was trying to help. I thought it was the right thing to do. I guess I was wrong, more than once apparently..


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> If you feel you need to forget this ever happened through hypnosis just to move on, then you NEED IC.
> 
> Sheesh.
> 
> Wipe your memory? Cherish this memory, and all you learned from it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Partially true. The first four years were great. The last two or so, just a pure disaster.


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## 225985

IC is $300/session. I think OP just wants to think less of J, not wipe her from his mind like you see in the movies. Hypnosis could have a calming effect at a lot lower cost.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Partially true. The first four years were great. The last two or so, just a pure disaster.


Any idea what was the triggering event that made it a pure disaster?

Any chance you wife was sexually assaulted or some similar event? Coworker etc?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

During our dating phase, about a year in, my med stuff popped out of control. The docs placed me on a variety of different meds to control the pain. Unfortunately, the pain was so great, that most times I was secluded in a dark room with silence. I am told, the meds made me less emotionally there due to the pain. In addition, I was angry and disgusted a lot as my life was like groundhogs day nearly every day. In addition I was at doc offices once or twice a week as well as the ER. As strange as it sounds, she stuck by me instead of leaving. Very supportive. However, there was no care giving, I was still able to take care of myself. She was upset, I found out last year, that I was not including her on all medical decisions, and that bothered her. I would tell her after the fact, just not before. Partly because I didn't know yet. Other part, I didn't want to drag her into my medical mess. She also claims "delaying for the baby around this time was also an issue". However, it was kinda hard to focus on a baby when this was transpiring. She started holding this against me in the middle t end of 2014. That was the time the issues subsided, and we started to try for a kid. After six months or so of no success, she got very angry. Also, her stress at work jumped to an all time high. Then, just about all of her friends and or co-workers had children or were prego. She says, many people were bothering her daily on what's happening with our family. In early to mid 2015, she started withdrawing from trying, then in the Summer of 2015, sex stopped completely. So, that's what seems to had been the timeline. Things started to fail when I got better and wanted to try for us. It makes little sense, but if you follow the timeline, it goes hand in hand.

Her only excuse was she has no interest in sex with me or anyone else. Not to my knowledge in terms of sexual assault. I've asked multiple times trying to find out additional information. Her response, you are not a doctor, stop trying to diagnose me.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> During our dating phase, about a year in, my med stuff popped out of control. The docs placed me on a variety of different meds to control the pain. Unfortunately, the pain was so great, that most times I was secluded in a dark room with silence. I am told, the meds made me less emotionally there due to the pain. In addition, I was angry and disgusted a lot as my life was like groundhogs day nearly every day. In addition I was at doc offices once or twice a week as well as the ER. As strange as it sounds, she stuck by me instead of leaving. Very supportive. However, there was no care giving, I was still able to take care of myself. She was upset, I found out last year, that I was not including her on all medical decisions, and that bothered her. I would tell her after the fact, just not before. Partly because I didn't know yet. * Other part, I didn't want to drag her into my medical mess. *She also claims "delaying for the baby around this time was also an issue". However, it was kinda hard to focus on a baby when this was transpiring. She started holding this against me in the middle t end of 2014. That was the time the issues subsided, and we started to try for a kid. After six months or so of no success, she got very angry. Also, her stress at work jumped to an all time high. Then, just about all of her friends and or co-workers had children or were prego. She says, many people were bothering her daily on what's happening with our family. In early to mid 2015, she started withdrawing from trying, then in the Summer of 2015, sex stopped completely. So, that's what seems to had been the timeline. Things started to fail when I got better and wanted to try for us. It makes little sense, but if you follow the timeline, it goes hand in hand.
> 
> Her only excuse was she has no interest in sex with me or anyone else. Not to my knowledge in terms of sexual assault. I've asked multiple times trying to find out additional information. Her response, you are not a doctor, stop trying to diagnose me.


OK, next time you need medical care, let your future wife help. Your spouse should be the one person you can count on to care about your "medical mess".


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## 225985

MIJ, how are you doing? Has J started to come around or is D inevitable at this point?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Yep, papers were given, however, she doesn't want to leave. She says she wants to live with me, together. I said, it's not working and we need time apart. She's been nicer to my face, but when she talks to her mom, it's the same. Says she as no interest in coming back to the master bedroom. She has no interest in being communicative or intimate, and she doesn't trust me to tell me anything. So, I have no idea what she's doing here. I may have to go to a lawyer to and go through the old fashioned way of a separation and divorce, since she does not leave.

Very strange. Though, she was shocked it seems. I am not sure why, I've been talking to her about packing up and leaving for a while now.

Honestly, I do not think she knows what she wants and is very much confused. Mostly in part because of her mom and the therapist.


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## turnera

Men are supposed to financially support women. Times may have changed, but women haven't caught up to it yet. You're a man; it's your job to make sure she's financially taken care of; thus no leaving.

And it's quite possible she's just being brainwashed. Happens all the time. I watched a young woman completely transform after talking to a church therapist - quit her job, divorced her husband, turned into a mean person. Said she had to care about herself for a change.

Question is, since she's not leaving, what do YOU want?


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yep, papers were given, however, she doesn't want to leave. She says she wants to live with me, together. I said, it's not working and we need time apart. She's been nicer to my face, but when she talks to her mom, it's the same. * Says she as no interest in coming back to the master bedroom. She has no interest in being communicative or intimate, and she doesn't trust me to tell me anything. * So, I have no idea what she's doing here. I may have to go to a lawyer to and go through the old fashioned way of a separation and divorce, since she does not leave.
> 
> Very strange. Though, she was shocked it seems. I am not sure why, I've been talking to her about packing up and leaving for a while now.
> 
> Honestly, I do not think she knows what she wants and is very much confused. Mostly in part because of her mom and the therapist.


Did she say this to you or was this VAR to mom?

When she said she does not want to leave, did you ask her why not? Did you ask her does she still want to be YOUR WIFE? 

Tell her the papers have been filed and the only way to stop this are the following conditions (you set your own, these are my examples.
1) She returns to bed. (You will not pester her for sex, you just want her back in bed. )
2) Every day for 30 minutes you both talk about the path forward on your marriage. If she says "IDK" or is quiet or vague, she breaks the agreement and the divorce continues. 

The point is to convey that the divorce is happening and will happen unless she changes or makes even the slightest attempt to be your wife. Tell her that if she does not agree to these "marriage saving" conditions (and be reasonable with them) that you will start the process to have her evicted from your apartment. If she is not your wife and will not work to be your wife, then she is just a roommate who is not paying rent and therefore has to go. 

MIJ, I may be an idiot but I still think this marriage can work for you and her. It is possible that you are being driven too much by the VAR. It is a great tool, but it can become the end-all to your marriage if you let it. Turn off the VAR. Who cares what she says to mom at this point. You have started the process for divorce and she either changes by action or you get divorced.

It will be very hard for you to stop the VAR, just think about it.


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## TheTruthHurts

At some point it is to your advantage to be honest. You can type up a snip it of what was said and email it to you and her from an anon email account with an intro sentence saying "this is what was said on 1/21". Imply there is much, much more.

As I said - they will have no idea how you know this. You can wipe any prints off the VARs, hide 2 with one easy to find. Even have it turned off so there is nothing incriminating on it.

The gig will be up and she will be forced to come clean. You can deny it was you - could have been a PI.

You might get the truth.


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## TheTruthHurts

I'm saying you need to break her one way or another - through divorce or through the truth. I would try the latter first. Once she is broken - no longer controlling everything (in her mind) - I think she could change. Like rock bottom for an addict. Holding these two extreme positions so long has to be stressful - part of hitting rock bottom is crying uncle, releasing control, and seeking any change for the better.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Since I pay just about everything already, I think I've supported her/us quite well financially, even though she earns more than me. That said, she will leave, there is no question about that. What do I want? 

1. Better communication from her.
2. Intimacy & Affection.
3. Trust & Respect.
4. Her to be nice.
5. Help around the apt / Everyday errands.

I really do not think I am asking for much. However, you may be right. Her mom may had brainwashed her since they've been talking to her for so long, she doesn't know what she wants. I swear, it seems her mom and the therapist, from what I hear, are pushing her to leave. Yet, when I give her the papers, it's like utter shock and surprise. 

If you cannot stand me, why stay? Because it is not on your time table? Sorry.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Did she say this to you or was this VAR to mom?
> 
> When she said she does not want to leave, did you ask her why not? Did you ask her does she still want to be YOUR WIFE?
> 
> Tell her the papers have been filed and the only way to stop this are the following conditions (you set your own, these are my examples.
> 1) She returns to bed. (You will not pester her for sex, you just want her back in bed. )
> 2) Every day for 30 minutes you both talk about the path forward on your marriage. If she says "IDK" or is quiet or vague, she breaks the agreement and the divorce continues.
> 
> The point is to convey that the divorce is happening and will happen unless she changes or makes even the slightest attempt to be your wife. Tell her that if she does not agree to these "marriage saving" conditions (and be reasonable with them) that you will start the process to have her evicted from your apartment. If she is not your wife and will not work to be your wife, then she is just a roommate who is not paying rent and therefore has to go.
> 
> MIJ, I may be an idiot but I still think this marriage can work for you and her. It is possible that you are being driven too much by the VAR. It is a great tool, but it can become the end-all to your marriage if you let it. Turn off the VAR. Who cares what she says to mom at this point. You have started the process for divorce and she either changes by action or you get divorced.
> 
> It will be very hard for you to stop the VAR, just think about it.


She has "hope" that we can work things out. This was to the VAR, not to me. I would love to stop the VAR, however, that is the only way I can get the truth. I've asked several questions to which she discussed with her mom, and she still gives me completely different answers.

Even before the papers, I did # 1 (with no mention of sex, just sleeping in the same bed), NO, not ready she says. We've been doing # 2 by my instance, but she gets frustrated immediately and stops talking.

The only other thing I would consider, and obviously I need her help is for her to read His Needs, Her Needs and complete the workbook with me. Then, maybe, if she see's that, it could save the marriage. I just do not think that she will do this, because it seems like I am telling her to do this. In addition, her mom is poisoning her against me by re-enforcing her feelings. It is important to share, the mom agrees that she should try to move back into the master bedroom. She also agrees that a good part of this is in HER HEAD. Lastly, she feels "bad" for me sometimes as I really am trying. After that being said, Jenna turns back and says something to get her mom to curse me again. 

I wouldn't be surprised that her mom may had also helped push her to file for divorce on the first husband. Again, they have a very strong bond. I tried talking to the mom about me and her daughter recently, she wanted no part of it. She felt "out of place". I find that a bit weird, as they talk about us nearly every day.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> I'm saying you need to break her one way or another - through divorce or through the truth. I would try the latter first. Once she is broken - no longer controlling everything (in her mind) - I think she could change. Like rock bottom for an addict. Holding these two extreme positions so long has to be stressful - part of hitting rock bottom is crying uncle, releasing control, and seeking any change for the better.


Already hinted on several things. Her and her mom think I am tracking her phone and reading it when she's sleeping. They do not know how I know of certain things or why I bring something up. I usually wait a few days and then bring it up. In addition, it seems that the father is against me as well now in the most recent VAR.

I would love for this to work out, but she needs to STOP talking about us to her parents. Also, telling the truth would help immensely as well. I think, she's thinks she's telling the truth they way she registers it in her head; as weird as it sounds.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> The only other thing I would consider, and obviously I need her help is for her to read His Needs, Her Needs and complete the workbook with me. Then, maybe, if she see's that, it could save the marriage. *I just do not think that she will do this, because it seems like I am telling her to do this.*


Ask her then what does SHE want to do to make this marriage work. Put her on the spot and if she says "IDK' then tell to you that means she wants the marriage to end. 

At this point, you do not need the truth of the VAR. It's actions or this ends, right? 

You could be right about mom. Is mom unhappy in her marriage or does she hate her husband and therefore you get the spillover? Maybe. Hopefully the trips to therapist have ended now that J is paying 100% of the costs out of her paycheck, right?


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Already hinted on several things. Her and her mom think I am tracking her phone and reading it when she's sleeping. They do not know how I know of certain things or why I bring something up. I usually wait a few days and then bring it up. In addition, it seems that the father is against me as well now in the most recent VAR.


I have never done the VAR. Just curious, does the VAR pick up mom's voice on the phone? Must be a very sensitive microphone.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Ask her then what does SHE want to do to make this marriage work. Put her on the spot and if she says "IDK' then tell to you that means she wants the marriage to end.
> 
> At this point, you do not need the truth of the VAR. It's actions or this ends, right?
> 
> You could be right about mom. Is mom unhappy in her marriage or does she hate her husband and therefore you get the spillover? Maybe. Hopefully the trips to therapist have ended now that J is paying 100% of the costs out of her paycheck, right?


I've tried that and get the IDK. Or, she wants more time. It takes time to fix things she says. Her mom and dad have an interesting relationship. For the past few years, the mom has worked during the day, and the dad works during the night. On Friday's and Saturday's, the dad is usually with his friends, not with the mom. If Jenna goes to their home on Sunday, then the father is there. If she goes over Saturday, then Sunday the parents MAY go out together or order in. Very strange.

I asked if we can go over every other weekend so we can spend time together, she said no. Every week we or she has gone there. If she works on one day of the weekend, then we have NO time together. When she comes home, she has dinner, then naps. We used to meet them half way for dinner, but that stopped as one of those three didn't like that anymore. They say she's an independent woman, but in reality, she isn't. Her parents, mostly the mom, is directing her actions in my opinion.

She's still going the the therapist, however, she's spacing out the visits as it's pretty expensive. Apparently, the therapist told my wife what does the price matter, your husband is paying for it. The therapist and mom where shocked to learn that I stopped paying for the sessions. The mom secretly gave her some money, but Jenna gave it back to her. Mom said, stop being so independent.

I would love to stop the VARs, but until she her statements match what she's telling me and her mom, I cannot be sure of the truth. I do not listen to the whole conversations, I skip past what doesn't concern me. It might not matter, however, I am just concerned about US.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> I have never done the VAR. Just curious, does the VAR pick up mom's voice on the phone? Must be a very sensitive microphone.


Yes, the best part of it is getting them both. My sister didn't believe me what Jenna's mom said about me until I played her the one part where she was cursing me out, calling me all names and said I was a lousy nonsupporting person. It was a 5 min. conversation, and I only played that part. As she didn't believe that Jenna's mom cursed or talked that way. Pure lies through and through. 

For instance, to re-enforce Jenna's reasoning for not moving back into the master bedroom, she said when we used to travel, I would either get a room with two beds or a bed and a couch. I would then either sleep in the separate bed or on the couch. This is 100% completely false. One, I've always gotten one king bed. Two, I would never sleep on those couches because of my neck and back issues.

Another instance is Jenna tells the mom and therapist we saw two therapists together, and they both agree with her assessment. False again. We only saw one together. She didn't like the first therapist after a few visits, so she stopped going. The second one I went with her, and the third one, she didn't allow me to come with her. Keep in mind, Jenna tells all that it was my idea, and my insistence for her to seek therapy. In fact, she was the one who first brought it up and asked me to pick a therapist and make the apts for her/us.

Lastly, she asked me why won't I go to see this new therapist separately. I said, very simple, I do not need too. In addition, the therapist told me she didn't want to see me, as she already has a bond with Jenna. It would be a 2 vs 1 match, whereas the therapist and Jenna are on one side, and I am on the other. Who would go through a situation like that? I asked for a new therapist for MC, she declined.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've tried that and get the IDK. Or, she wants more time. It takes time to fix things she says.


The sad part of all this is that you are not asking for the problems to be fixed overnight. You just want progress made and she is unwilling to try. 

Believe me, I know very well the "IDK" response. Heard that many many times from my W. Frustrating as heck. I told my wife that IDK=No. 

Well, J has a deadline now and hope she realizes by now that "IDK" is the same as a "No" when communicating to you about her desire to stay married or work on marriage. 

Put up a calendar with the date of divorce circled (did you say 60 days if not contested). Let her know that you are disappointed that she is allowing (or wanting!) this to happen (put it back on her as it is HER decision, not yours). Tell her you love her, will miss her greatly, and that you wish she had not made this decision to end the marriage.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Forgot to add, she did tell me the issues she has is that she doesn't feel like the apt is hers, since she wants to decorate the entire apt. I said, since she moved in, lets go to a home store, or any store of your choosing and we can both pick out things we both like. She said no. She's the wife, and she should have 100% choice and freedom to design the decor of the apt any way she likes. I said, I am happy to go and pick things out with you, but I want to have an input as well. She said, she didn't agree with it.

She also is upset with the commute. It takes about 45 - 1 hour to get to work for her, and about the same to get home. I feel for her, but she knew this before moving. She initially wanted me to sell the apt. or at least put her on the deed, I declined. I then said a few weeks ago, I am considering selling the apt, and now she tells me I do not want you to sell the apt. (was trying again to make her happy) Her parents also blasted me for considering selling the apt. and calling a realtor without Jenna's input. Again,


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> For instance, to re-enforce Jenna's reasoning for not moving back into the master bedroom, *she said when we used to travel, I would either get a room with two beds or a bed and a couch. *I would then either sleep in the separate bed or on the couch. This is 100% completely false. One, I've always gotten one king bed. Two, I would never sleep on those couches because of my neck and back issues.
> 
> Another instance is *Jenna tells the mom and therapist we saw two therapists together, *and they both agree with her assessment. False again. We only saw one together. She didn't like the first therapist after a few visits, so she stopped going. The second one I went with her, and the third one, she didn't allow me to come with her. Keep in mind, Jenna tells all that it was my idea, and my insistence for her to seek therapy. In fact, she was the one who first brought it up and asked me to pick a therapist and make the apts for her/us.


This is all crazy. She is disconnected from reality. 

You have a deadline now when all this ends, right?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> The sad part of all this is that you are not asking for the problems to be fixed overnight. You just want progress made and she is unwilling to try.
> 
> Believe me, I know very well the "IDK" response. Heard that many many times from my W. Frustrating as heck. I told my wife that IDK=No.
> 
> Well, J has a deadline now and hope she realizes by now that "IDK" is the same as a "No" when communicating to you about her desire to stay married or work on marriage.
> 
> Put up a calendar with the date of divorce circled (did you say 60 days if not contested). Let her know that you are disappointed that she is allowing (or wanting!) this to happen (put it back on her as it is HER decision, not yours). Tell her you love her, will miss her greatly, and that you wish she had not made this decision to end the marriage.


I've said this already. I told her I do not want a divorce, but I do not want a live in roommate either. I've told her IDK = No, she rolls her eyes. I said we do not need MC, we need to TALK and COMMUNICATE. She refuses. It's a shame she allows her mom to influence her. Her mom initially suggested to her separation for a time period like Jenna's parents did not far after being married. I was originally pushing for that as well, however, she told her mom, she's not ready. She doesn't have the courage to leave. She told me she doesn't want a separation either. So, again, 

I honestly do not believe she knows what she wants.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> This is all crazy. She is disconnected from reality.
> 
> You have a deadline now when all this ends, right?


I gave her two weeks to find a place or move into her parents. If she refuses to sign the papers, I will meet with a lawyer and have her served. I wanted to do it through DIY, as it's cheaper and faster, however, I have a feeling she's going to fight the urge to move.

Not to mention, just a few days ago, she told me again to find someone else to meet your sexual needs. Last week, if you want me to move out, just tell me. So I am telling you now, and she's not following through with her offer of moving out.


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## TheTruthHurts

Hmmm this last stuff is interesting. It's starting to sound like she always assumed she would be in charge of things - you'll come around - but is confused why you haven't. The decorating examine is very telling.

Sorry I don't see her believing ever that a marriage is a partnership.

Does her mom boss her dad around?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> Sorry I don't see her believing ever that a marriage is a partnership.
> 
> Does her mom boss her dad around?


Interesting you say that. She's told me and others that I do not understand the meaning of marriage. I am convinced that the parents put on an act in front of me and sister/mom. My sister has told me several times, how can these people be so nice and happy? I guess I was in a cloud before the VARs. Hence the reason why the VARs were so important to learn the truth. 

It seems the mom is usually in charge with the dad, however, the dad can get testy at times too.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Interesting tidbit. Last week, she asked me what I wanted out of the marriage. I said for you to be nice, treat me with respect and for us to be intimate and affectionate again. No answer received.

I guess maybe the intimacy when dating should had been a hit about her low or no sex drive. Around X-mast 2014, I picked up a game which I thought would be fun. It's called XXXopoly. It's like an adult version of Monopoly. Let's just say, it wasn't a fun game with her. She was very uncomfortable and really didn't want to play or do anything. We quit midterm at her request. Very strange reaction, as I thought it would put some fun and adventure into our relationship.


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## turnera

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> The only other thing I would consider, and obviously I need her help is for her to read His Needs, Her Needs and complete the workbook with me. Then, maybe, if she see's that, it could save the marriage. I just do not think that she will do this, because it seems like I am telling her to do this.


You could try finding snippets of HNHN that are appropriate to your marriage and emailing her one here and there. Like I told my H about the Love Bucket concept, and ever since then he's just 'understood' that you can meet your spouse's ENs and you can LB them as well, and that balancing act is key.

"I heard this the other day, and I wish we would have known about this five years ago. ..." and then discuss a concept from the book.

That way you're not telling her to change, you're showing regret that the two of you couldn't have implemented such a change. But she's still learning just by reading the email.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

turnera said:


> You could try finding snippets of HNHN that are appropriate to your marriage and emailing her one here and there. Like I told my H about the Love Bucket concept, and ever since then he's just 'understood' that you can meet your spouse's ENs and you can LB them as well, and that balancing act is key.
> 
> "I heard this the other day, and I wish we would have known about this five years ago. ..." and then discuss a concept from the book.
> 
> That way you're not telling her to change, you're showing regret that the two of you couldn't have implemented such a change. But she's still learning just by reading the email.


I've actually sent her links and quotes from divorce busters and other sites. She tells me I am not a therapist, so stop trying to diagnose and fix me.

I purchased a separate copy of the HNHN's set for her as well as Love Busters and the workshop. I will also try, and say, if you are not wanting a divorce, work with me and read these two books (I've already read the HNHN, and currently reading Love Busters), the we can both work on the workshop together. This is my last ditch effort. After this, I just do not know what else to do. I believe I've pulled out all the stops and tried everything. My sister and mom think I am beating a dead horse and should of left a while ago. However, I am really trying to right the ship. However, I cannot right the ship all by myself. Her "trying" by going to a therapist doesn't really mean she's actually "trying" to fix the marriage. Her mom telling her not to worry, she'll find someone else, doesn't help matters either. It's really an uphill battle here.


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## turnera

The only way to right your ship at this point is to go 180 on her and let her see what life without you is like.


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## 225985

MIJ, I agree with you than your wife is being manipulated by MIL, who is unhappy with her own life. Your wife has been poisoned against you, almost cult-like. She will not make ANY effort to fix her marriage. 

When she said "this is not the way I was told it would go down" (my paraphrase) when you mentioned divorce clearly indicates someone else is pulling the strings of your wife.

At this point, I agree fully with @tunera. Do the 180. You can do it as an attempt to get her back. Or you can do it, as TAM most often recommends, for YOU and help you get past this and move on. Either way, it's worth trying. This would be the opposite of everything else you have tried. And you tried everything anyone can think of - except this.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I've started the 180 a few weeks ago. Wife and MIL noticed, but they said I was only exercising because my doc said so.??? I've started to dress better and focus more on work and new ventures.

I was re-reading the HNHN book, and I was thinking maybe showing more affection, such as hugs and kisses would help. Not sure, as it's nearly impossible to get anything but a peck on the lips from her. I can try with the hugs to see if this makes any difference. I know she doesn't want to leave, as she's stated this quite clearly. However, I need her to work with me. It seems, when she doesn't speak to her mom, she's much better. The days she does speak to her mom are the days when they are discussing me more than anything else. Is this standard with MILs? Do they normally not like their daughters or sons spouse?


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I've started the 180 a few weeks ago. Wife and MIL noticed, but they said I was only exercising because my doc said so.??? I've started to dress better and focus more on work and new ventures.
> 
> I was re-reading the HNHN book, and I was thinking maybe showing more affection, such as hugs and kisses would help. Not sure, as it's nearly impossible to get anything but a peck on the lips from her. I can try with the hugs to see if this makes any difference. I know she doesn't want to leave, as she's stated this quite clearly. However, I need her to work with me. It seems, when she doesn't speak to her mom, she's much better. The days she does speak to her mom are the days when they are discussing me more than anything else. Is this standard with MILs? Do they normally not like their daughters or sons spouse?


My mom adored my husband. He was easily her favorite son-in-law.

I think your plan to divorce is fine. But if you still want to work on things, then just focus on improving yourself. Take the attitude of, "If it has to be, it is up to me." That will keep you focused and less inclined to develop resentment if she does not meet your expectations.


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## turnera

Has it always been this way? Has MIL always disliked you or did something happen?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Not sure. I never heard her speak of me like this before the VARs. I think she was putting on an act. My mom and sis thought it was weird that they were always so nice and happy. Very fake they said. I just assumed they were just happy people. I guess I may had been the one with the rose colored glasses on. Who knows how long Jenna has been talking about me to her mom. She takes one event and twists and turns it with added effects to make it look like the ones listed above. There are other ones, however, she embellishes a bit; to say the least, and not in a good way. Then the mother plays off of that and runs with it. Regurgitates the past, also embellished, and makes everything all doom and gloom. Not sure why they do this. Very strange.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> My mom adored my husband. He was easily her favorite son-in-law.
> 
> I think your plan to divorce is fine. But if you still want to work on things, then just focus on improving yourself. Take the attitude of, "If it has to be, it is up to me." That will keep you focused and less inclined to develop resentment if she does not meet your expectations.


I am mainly focusing on myself. I am just going to try the HNHN program with her as my last option. If she refuses to read the books and do the program with me, I know, in my heart, I've done everything to try and right the relationship. However, it takes two to tango. If I have no partner, then there is nothing to save and we'll move forward with the separation and divorce plans already implemented.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I gave her the books and asked her to read them. She looked at me and said am was crazy. The books would not help anything. She wanted me to go back to her therapist, the one that is telling her to leave, and the one who told me if she sees me, it's a 2 vs 1 session where she's automatically on the side of my wife. Then the wife tells her mom, and the mom agrees I need to see this crazy therapist. If not, you two will get divorced, and that's that. The mom says I hope it doesn't come down to this, but it may. Afterall, he is not taking any responsibility and putting everything on you.  When we went to the last therapist together, everything he said to do, I've done. I asked the wife. Haven't I? She said yes. Am I doing anything wrong now that you do not like or upsets you in any way? She said, no, you're fine. With that said, what the heck am I supposed to do here aside from move forward with the separation and divorce?

I already read the books. All I asked her to do is read the books so we can go over the questions and learn about what each other's needs are. She twists and turns words around like she's a victim here. It's really just crazy. Then, when she comes back home, she talks to me all nice and calm. I feel like I am missing out on something else here, but I do not know what.


----------



## turnera

You could go to that therapist BY YOURSELF. See what happens. Tell her YOUR side of what's going on. And if she still tells you you're wrong, walk away knowing you tried everything.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

turnera said:


> You could go to that therapist BY YOURSELF. See what happens. Tell her YOUR side of what's going on. And if she still tells you you're wrong, walk away knowing you tried everything.


Actually, I tried that before the therapist gave me the line that she doesn't recommend it. She already has sided with my wife, thus it would not be good to see me (the therapist). I already have formed an opinion of the situation, so I do not recommend this. Then she said, well, if you want to still come, you can, but everything you tell me will not be held in any confidence to anyone whatsoever. I then asked if we can see her together, she said it is up to my wife. The wife then called the therapist the next day and said I do *NOT* want my husband to join me in my sessions at this time. Please keep in mind, the therapist called me a master manipulator without even talking to me more than a few minutes to schedule an appt. for my wife (her request). How does someone form an opinion like that?

I just think there is no turning back, and divorce is going to continue. I just feel like I failed the relationship, her and myself.


----------



## Chaparral

Its because she's lying to her therapist just like she lies to you and her mother.

Go to the therapist and point out to her the lies she tells her mother and ask her therapist which version she is telling her. At this point you have nothing else to lose. My opinion is your wife can't be helped any time soon. How could she since she lies to all invoved every one is trying to help with false assumptions.

Try to keep the var secret but time has run out anyway.

You're not beating a dead horse, you're dragging on around thinking it can be brought back to life.

I have known people to lie and not know they are doing it. I've seen peopl tell different stories to different people knowing I was there and they have no idea their stories have changed.


----------



## 225985

MIJ, In the past you wanted to go see the therapist. Now you have your chance. Ignore how you finally got this option. DO IT. 

You should follow @turnera 's advice and go see the therapist first. You need to get a to a suitable comfort level with therapist before you and J see the therapist together. @Chaparral is right in that your wife most likely did not tell the therapist the truth, or is spinning a different story to her mom during the phone calls. I sometimes listen to my wife talk to her best friend and I cannot believe her version of the events, like totally different from what happened, like WTH? So I understand this. 

Why do you think now they want you to see the therapist with J? This is the first positive sign of both J and mom actually doing something to save the marriage. 

You can also test this further (although risky) by telling J that you will pay for the single session with you and therapist but that J will pay for the next session in which both of you goes. If she is willing to put HER money up for this, it is another encouraging sign.

During the single session with therapist, discuss the confidentiality issue. Keep an open mind on the therapist because you might not have gotten the real story of what the therapist actually said. Discuss with therapist what YOU want, not just attacking your wife. You have nothing to prove to the therapist about you being right and J being wrong. This is not a debate team. 

Either the marriage is over or it is not. "I just think there is no turning back" means you still have hope, even if useless hope. If you said "There is no turning back" I would not have written this post. 

If for nothing else, do this ONE LAST thing, just so that you will not continue to feel that you "failed the relationship, her and myself."


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I just think there is no turning back, and divorce is going to continue. I just feel like I failed the relationship, her and myself.


Then why not pursue IC?

I think once you tell her counselor you have been VARing her, the "master manipulator" idea is going to be firmer in her head. 

I understand you did it to get to the truth. And the truth can set us free. But there is also the concern about the ends justifying the means.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Chaparral said:


> Its because she's lying to her therapist just like she lies to you and her mother.
> 
> Go to the therapist and point out to her the lies she tells her mother and ask her therapist which version she is telling her. At this point you have nothing else to lose. My opinion is your wife can't be helped any time soon. How could she since she lies to all invoved every one is trying to help with false assumptions.
> 
> Try to keep the var secret but time has run out anyway.
> 
> You're not beating a dead horse, you're dragging on around thinking it can be brought back to life.
> 
> I have known people to lie and not know they are doing it. I've seen peopl tell different stories to different people knowing I was there and they have no idea their stories have changed.


Certainly sounds that way. I did request from the therapist, if I came in, would you share anything with me that my wife told you, she said no. However, she will share everything that I say to her with my wife. It seems like if I go that route, the only thing I will gain is 300.00 less in my bank account. She will not divulge anything, so aside from the VARs, I technically, according to these three, I know nothing, and Jenna is just building up courage to leave me. Not sure if that is still the plan since I already gave her papers, however, she's not leaving so soon it seems.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> MIJ, In the past you wanted to go see the therapist. Now you have your chance. Ignore how you finally got this option. DO IT.
> 
> You should follow @turnera 's advice and go see the therapist first. You need to get a to a suitable comfort level with therapist before you and J see the therapist together. @Chaparral is right in that your wife most likely did not tell the therapist the truth, or is spinning a different story to her mom during the phone calls. I sometimes listen to my wife talk to her best friend and I cannot believe her version of the events, like totally different from what happened, like WTH? So I understand this.
> 
> Why do you think now they want you to see the therapist with J? This is the first positive sign of both J and mom actually doing something to save the marriage.
> 
> You can also test this further (although risky) by telling J that you will pay for the single session with you and therapist but that J will pay for the next session in which both of you goes. If she is willing to put HER money up for this, it is another encouraging sign.
> 
> During the single session with therapist, discuss the confidentiality issue. Keep an open mind on the therapist because you might not have gotten the real story of what the therapist actually said. Discuss with therapist what YOU want, not just attacking your wife. You have nothing to prove to the therapist about you being right and J being wrong. This is not a debate team.
> 
> Either the marriage is over or it is not. "I just think there is no turning back" means you still have hope, even if useless hope. If you said "There is no turning back" I would not have written this post.
> 
> If for nothing else, do this ONE LAST thing, just so that you will not continue to feel that you "failed the relationship, her and myself."


She will not come with me. I have to alone to this piece of garbage "therapist" that will not tell me one thing Jenna told me. She will NOT, under any circumstances, do a joint with her. In addition, the therapist said she wouldn't do a joint either. She's already told me she's already formed an opinion on me. I do not see what driving myself into a brick wall will do. She will not believe me, nor will she tell me anything about what Jenna said to her. It's a bit of a waste of time and money, since nothing will be gained nor learned from the ordeal.


----------



## farsidejunky

MIJ:

Your wife is shown herself to be a liar. What makes you think she's telling you the truth about the therapist? For all you know, the therapist may be telling her something completely different.

Set the appointment with the therapist. Go alone. Find out if what your wife is telling you is actually happening with this therapist. The results may surprise you.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Then why not pursue IC?
> 
> I think once you tell her counselor you have been VARing her, the "master manipulator" idea is going to be firmer in her head.
> 
> I understand you did it to get to the truth. And the truth can set us free. But there is also the concern about the ends justifying the means.


Since the therapist is already against me, as she's stated twice already, I do not feel comfortable I will get a fair judgement from her. She's even eluded to this fact quite specifically. The VARs I would not tell them, as they were only for my own confirmations in learning the truth. Since there is no more need for the VARs, I've stopped them. I have what I intended to learn. The truth.

We need MC, but with a new therapist. She twists and turns stories to make her look like the victim. When, in fact, there is/was no victim at all. This is something she needs to work on in her head, as me going to IC doesn't solve the problem of her re-engineering stories in her head. Aside from my wife, my life is pretty good. Work fine. Medical issues stable. Finances stable. Wife unstable.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> MIJ:
> 
> Your wife is shown herself to be a liar. What makes you think she's telling you the truth about the therapist? For all you know, the therapist may be telling her something completely different.
> 
> Set the appointment with the therapist. Go alone. Find out if what your wife is telling you is actually happening with this therapist. The results may surprise you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Heard one of the convos on the VAR.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Heard one of the convos on the VAR.


A convo between her and the therapist?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

VARs have been stopped. However, the trust has been broken. I always will have to wonder if she's telling me the truth, or is she just placating me like before? Could this be healed? Possibly. But for her not to even read the books, that just ridiculous. She can knock the first one out in a couple of hours. I believe the exercises in the back of each chapter would help a lot. She laughed at me. Shows you right there she wants to leave, but doesn't want to be the bad girl to do it. Which, again, I do not understand, since the papers were already given. Very confusing.


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## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Since the therapist is already against me, as she's stated twice already, I do not feel comfortable I will get a fair judgement from her. She's even eluded to this fact quite specifically. The VARs I would not tell them, as they were only for my own confirmations in learning the truth. Since there is no more need for the VARs, I've stopped them. I have what I intended to learn. The truth.
> 
> We need MC, but with a new therapist. She twists and turns stories to make her look like the victim. When, in fact, there is/was no victim at all. This is something she needs to work on in her head, as me going to IC doesn't solve the problem of her re-engineering stories in her head. Aside from my wife, my life is pretty good. Work fine. Medical issues stable. Finances stable. Wife unstable.


You think the basic problem is that she lies to herself?


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> VARs have been stopped. However, the trust has been broken. I always will have to wonder if she's telling me the truth, or is she just placating me like before? Could this be healed? Possibly. But for her not to even read the books, that just ridiculous. She can knock the first one out in a couple of hours. I believe the exercises in the back of each chapter would help a lot. She laughed at me. Shows you right there she wants to leave, but doesn't want to be the bad girl to do it. Which, again, I do not understand, since the papers were already given. Very confusing.


She is just not quite ready . . . like she told you.


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## farsidejunky

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Since the therapist is already against me, as she's stated twice already, I do not feel comfortable I will get a fair judgement from her. She's even eluded to this fact quite specifically. The VARs I would not tell them, as they were only for my own confirmations in learning the truth. Since there is no more need for the VARs, I've stopped them. I have what I intended to learn. The truth.
> 
> We need MC, but with a new therapist. She twists and turns stories to make her look like the victim. When, in fact, there is/was no victim at all. This is something she needs to work on in her head, as me going to IC doesn't solve the problem of her re-engineering stories in her head. Aside from my wife, my life is pretty good. Work fine. Medical issues stable. Finances stable. Wife unstable.


How do you know?

Because your wife told you?

How has taking her at her word worked for you?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> A convo between her and the therapist?


Yes. The day after I asked her if I can join her at one of her sessions. She told me yes, but then called the therapist and told her no. She then called the wife back and they had a little convo. Said not to trust me. You are making the right decision. You should move out and be on your own soon. You need to leave him.

Does this make any sense to go see her? I'd have a better chance at getting a fair hearing in North Korea. (Pun)


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> You think the basic problem is that she lies to herself?


I really do not know. I've tried to talk to her. Talk to her mom. Bring her parents in. Take her out on date nights. Do things she wants to do. Spend time with her, nothing works. When you have a mom and a therapist tell you want you want to hear, why tell them the brass tax? She would look foolish. Thus, lose trust with both her mom and the therapist. Since she's effectively blocked me from joint sessions, she knows that's a safe place for her. Naturally, her parents will always be team Jenna, so that is safe too. I cannot see her ever coming clean, as that would make her tell all that she lied; or at least stretched the truth. The mom and daughter are like best friends. Talk and text daily. Now she deletes her texts because she doesn't want me to read them. Not that I've ever done that.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> She is just not quite ready . . . like she told you.


We're not going to use her timetable. Especially when things are just getting worse and we're getting farther and farther away from each other. I even asked her, am I asking for anything unreasonable? She says, no. Then why can't we talk? I just don't want too. It stresses me out. How are we supposed to fix this? Don't know.

These are the answers I receive.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

farsidejunky said:


> How do you know?
> 
> Because your wife told you?
> 
> How has taking her at her word worked for you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


I spoke to the therapist and those are her words to me.


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## 225985

Tell her Joint therapist session or the divorce continues and she better be looking for an apartment before you have her evicted. 

She has one decision to make: Joint session or divorce. No debate, no alternative options to be considered. But I think you already did that, right.


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## jld

I just don't understand why you stay in this marriage.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> Tell her Joint therapist session or the divorce continues and she better be looking for an apartment before you have her evicted.
> 
> She has one decision to make: Joint session or divorce. No debate, no alternative options to be considered. But I think you already did that, right.


Already did this. Blank stare. I guess the writing is on the wall. I just really did not want it to end like this. It's just said. But, I guess, with a mom backing her 100% and not saying hold-up, what can you expect.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> I just don't understand why you stay in this marriage.


It just turned really bad, really fast. It seems the more I listened to the therapist we both went to and inform her of things, spend time with her, show affection, etc., she got worse. I've tried the hug and kiss each morning and evening. It lasted not very long. She blew me off for a kiss yesterday and the hug this morning, saying she had to leave for work.

I guess, I am not staying in for much longer.


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## 225985

jld said:


> I just don't understand why you stay in this marriage.


:iagree:


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## turnera

I would be reporting the therapist to the state agency overseeing therapists.


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## jld

turnera said:


> I would be reporting the therapist to the state agency overseeing therapists.


Why?


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## Nucking Futs

jld said:


> Why?


From the website of the American Psychological Association:


American Psychological Association said:


> Will the things I discuss in therapy be kept private?
> Confidentiality is a respected part of psychology's code of ethics. Psychologists understand that for people to feel comfortable talking about private and revealing information, they need a safe place to talk about anything they'd like, without fear of that information leaving the room. They take your privacy very seriously.
> Laws are also in place to protect your privacy. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) contains a privacy rule that creates national standards to protect individuals' medical records and personal health information, including information about psychotherapy and mental health.
> The HIPAA Privacy Rule is designed to be a minimum level of protection. Some states have even stricter laws in place to protect your personal health information. You can contact your state's board of psychology to find out its laws and protections.
> At your first visit, a psychologist should give you written information explaining privacy policies and how your personal information will be handled. This information will explain that in some cases, there are exceptions to the privacy rule, as described below.


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## 225985

jld said:


> Why?


Therapist told OP that anything he tells her she will reveal to wife. That is violation of NJ state law.

OP can file grievance with NJ's State Board of Marriage and Family Therapy Examiners. He did not incur any actual damage, but he can still file.

OP has tried everything he thought and what TAM suggested to save his marriage. The fact that J refuses to have a joint therapy session, even with the one-sided toxic therapist, is all revealing. She seems now to be doing this therapy suggestion as a stall tactic or to blame OP on marriage ending. What a shame. :frown2::frown2:


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## jld

Hmm. I suppose the therapist would say since she made her boundaries clear, as in she is not willing to take him on as a patient, it is okay? An exception to the privacy rule, as noted?

Did she actually say she would tell Jenna everything? Or is that your understanding of it?

I think OP has done what OP is capable of doing, at least at this time. That is why it would be a favor to both of them to end the marriage.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Hmm. I suppose the therapist would say since she made her boundaries clear, as in she is not willing to take him on as a patient, it is okay? An exception to the privacy rule, as noted?
> 
> Did she actually say she would tell Jenna everything? Or is that your understanding of it?
> 
> I think OP has done what OP is capable of doing, at least at this time. That is why it would be a favor to both of them to end the marriage.


She stated that since she started seeing Jenna, then she has a confidentiality agreement with her. The wife CAN waive this, however, she refuses. However, if I waive my confidentiality to everything and anyone, then she'd see me. That's crazy. If we saw her together, then nothing would have to be waived. Jenna, declined this second week in. Even though, that was OUR original plan. Funny how things change..

I do not see any other option. I cannot even get Jenna to read a book, let alone do a joint therapy session. Watch. After I push further for the papers to be signed, that is when she wakes up. At that point, it makes no sense, and it would be too late.

I tried to stay and fix the marriage as I was told, through all the books I read, marriages have periods of ups and downs. However, if the spouse will not have an intimate conversation about us, I am dealing with it myself. Ironically, she tells her mom (and possibly this therapist) that I will not work on it together. Yet, she conveniently forgets to tell at least her mom that I've tried to sit down with her and talk about us. It doesn't do any use, as she closes up and doesn't talk. I've never felt so helpless in my life.


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## Chaparral

Well I would divorce her. I would at least see the therapist and confront her about recommending your wife to leave you. Your wife is telling three different stories to you her mother and the therapist. She doesn't want a joint session because she will be confronted with her lies. The therapist needs to know she is doing this. Tell her you were advised to use a VAR because you were advised she was cheating.

You have nothing to lose at this point but the truth may help your wife get the help she needs.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> After I push further for the papers to be signed, that is when she wakes up. At that point, it makes no sense, and it would be too late.


This is what is going to happen. ^^^


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Just an update. She read one page of the book HNHN, and said it was stupid and threw it on the floor. Offered another therapist, she said no. There is a therapy session at my Church, she declined that as well. She should be moving out in a couple of weeks it seems. She then asks me if I want to join her and her maiden family for Easter this year. Said not sure. It will prob. be too difficult for me. Who knows what you've said to your parents about us. Later on in the evening, she tells her dear old mom, that I do not know if I will be going. Then proceeds to tell her, because I (her) make him (me) uncomfortable. Mother asked why, and seemed concerned. Then asked if she wanted me to come. She said, I couldn't care less. Come, don't come, doesn't matter to her. Even the mother seemed taken back on that. 

Next, her mom asks what's going on between both of us. She said, nothing different. He (me) just keeps on asking what can he (me) do differently to help right the relationship. Mom asks, you tell him, she says, what's the point. We cannot agree on anything. Then, ask true Jenna fashion, she changes the next sentence as stating, yes, I've told him several times, but he just doesn't listen. If she told me, then I wouldn't keep on asking. Yet, she tells me she doesn't want to separate. What bugs me even more is that she tells me one thing, and her parents the other on the same issue. She happy go lucky sometimes, then, hell to be with on the other. 

In addition, in terms of communication, apparently, she has a get together for a friend this weekend's b-day party. They were discussing it. Funny thing, she's yet to mention this to me. Anyone else thinks this is a bit strange?


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## TheTruthHurts

Yes


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## TheTruthHurts

For the love of god I don't know why you don't expose this. If the marriage is over anyway, why don't you tell MIL the truth? It actually sounds like her MIL would be surprised by Ws duplicity and may get her to get help.

Who gives a sh*t if you found out with a VAR. quit being chicken sh*t and just dump in back in their lap.

I just don't get why you stay on the one hand, but won't fix this on the other.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

Not staying, she's moving out. Tried to ask the MIL to talk to me about us, she had no interest in talking to me about it. Said she didn't want to get involved. I chuckled after that remark.


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## TheTruthHurts

I forgot - does moving out mean divorce? Or just married but - I don't know - just married?


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## MarriageInJeopardy

I get the joke, TTH. Nonetheless, papers were given, she has to go to the notary public to sign them. That's the trying part.


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## TheTruthHurts

So she is still pretending you guys are going to stay married? Why the invites to family gatherings, etc?

Sorry I just don't get it...


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## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> So she is still pretending you guys are going to stay married? Why the invites to family gatherings, etc?
> 
> Sorry I just don't get it...


Makes two of us. I would had thought it would had been a forgone conclusion before asking that question. Maybe to gauge my response?


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## farsidejunky

Your wife has an integrity problem.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## TheTruthHurts

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> 
> So she is still pretending you guys are going to stay married? Why the invites to family gatherings, etc?
> 
> Sorry I just don't get it...
> 
> 
> 
> Makes two of us. I would had thought it would had been a forgone conclusion before asking that question. Maybe to gauge my response?
Click to expand...

But you're contributing to this disfunction and are sending mixed signals. Why did you say "not sure" to the invite? Shouldn't you have said "no of course not - we're getting divorced" or "no - but if I go I'll go as the kids dad and you and I won't go together - we're getting divorced"


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## TheTruthHurts

Sorry no kids yes that was a part of the problem. Nix that part of my post


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## oneMOreguy

She has no interest in being married to you. She just wants a soft landing on the other side. End this asap and quit worrying about how she lands. Make yourself the priority now cause she sure isn't going too.


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## karole

Just read this thread today, Op, GET OUT!! END THE TORMENT YOU ARE IN - PERMANENTLY!! Your wife is a fruit loop. Get on with your life man!


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## Relationship Teacher

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Unfortunately, this delayed us for trying until mid to late 2014. Please take note, she was now her late thirties. All her friends and co-workers are either now pregnant or already have children. She says, others are/were questioning when she will be popping out a child or two. Our sex life wasn't great, maybe once a week or once every two weeks, but I didn't fuss. Her body, not going to push for more.


There is a lot of peer pressure here, in addition to the pressure of age (fear of miscarriage, etc)




> During her ovulation times, we tried for about six months, and then she gave up because she wasn't getting pregnant. She then started to become mean and distant.


Most say it is completely normal for perfectly fertile individuals to take a year or so, not recommending fertility testing until after two years. Again, a lot of expectations here.



> First to me, then others have noticed it as well. Sex stopped around the late spring of 2015. She says she has zero interest, sorry.


Sex became about getting pregnant and not about fulfilling an intimate relationship's needs.



> Got her a counselor, but didn't like the first one. We then both saw the second one, but now that is on hold. The counselor is on leave because of her maternity leave. She may be back in February, but has been off since December and she gave us no one to see in the meantime.


Her counselor on *maternity* leave didn't help, did it?



> I asked my wife several times to contact her or let's find another counselor. At first she agreed, but now, six weeks later, she's yet to contact the counselor, nor look for another one. Apparently, she's not crazy with the first two that I found, and she will find another one.


The problem is that the endeavor is proving itself fruitless.



> Her moods/personality are all over the place. Sometimes she's happy, then sad, but mostly mad. Blames me constantly for her not becoming pregnant at 38, 39, and now 40. It's all my fault because of my family and medical issues.


There are a lot of issues at heart here. The victim mentality is to blame for most of it. In that mindset, the victim likes to shift blame to others so as to alleviate themselves of that uncomfortability.




> I offered IVF, but she's afraid of the tests and health risks. She now says, she's probably too old to conceive anyway, thanks again hubby for this.


The problem isn't fertility, so offering solutions like that is not working towards the underlying problem.



> She then said, I am sorry I cannot meet you sexual needs. If you want to have sex with another woman, you have my permission.


You are no longer talking to your wife, but speaking to her inner voice - her pride.



> I got very offended and looked at her like she had 18 eyes. I said do you know what marriage is (it's her second)? For better or for worse. Good times or bad. I would NEVER in my world do something like that.


Good of you to not take it seriously as allowance. Bad of you to take it personally, keep reading.


> Intimacy is important for a marriage, but that is between the two people who are married, not flings. She then said. Fine. Do you want me to leave then? I said no. I want to bring us back to where we were. I cannot see myself with anyone but you.


Not bad.





> We sleep in separate rooms (she is a tosser/turner), but I wanted us to try to sleep again in the same bed. No she said. I said we're basically roommates, this is not a marriage. Sorry she said. I wish things were different, but I do not know what to tell you.


This won't change overnight. The desire to be intimate has to now precede the moving back into the same bed. which brings us to:




> I really have no idea what to do here. I am grasping at straws hoping things will turn around. It's been a year or so, and nothing has changed.


1. The marriage might not be saved, no matter what you do. Understanding and appreciating this is the most important step.
2. You have to bolster yourself. This involves not only self-reflection but self-correction. You don't need anything from her, necessarily. Your efforts here will yield positive results whether she agrees to work towards saving the marriage or not.
3. You have to give up the fantasy that you can just spark a flame and everything is instantly or quickly back to normal. When marriages degrade like this, you have to approach reconciliation in a different manner. You have to use a bottom-up approach, as you did when you were dating. With acceptance comes power. Realizing that you have no control, gives you more control (desirable outcomes).
4. Turn expectations into invitations.
5. Stop reasoning with her.
6. Be nice and loving, no matter what.
7. Someone has to lead the way. You enter the gauntlet, accepting the blows that come your way. When/if you make it through the gauntlet, you let the blows reside in the past.
8. Master forgiveness.

I think that is a good intro. Is it saveable? Of course it is.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Thank you all for your most recent comments. Many have echoed the same things others have said, and things I've said to myself. RT, thank you again for breaking down individual sections of my posts and giving me some additional clarity on the the relationship.


----------



## MJJEAN

How long does she have to get the papers signed and notarized before the court just goes ahead and proceeds with the divorce?


----------



## MJJEAN

Relationship Teacher said:


> There is a lot of peer pressure here, in addition to the pressure of age (fear of miscarriage, etc)
> 
> 
> 
> Most say it is completely normal for perfectly fertile individuals to take a year or so, not recommending fertility testing until after two years. Again, a lot of expectations here.
> 
> 
> Sex became about getting pregnant and not about fulfilling an intimate relationship's needs.
> 
> 
> Her counselor on *maternity* leave didn't help, did it?
> 
> 
> The problem is that the endeavor is proving itself fruitless.
> 
> 
> There are a lot of issues at heart here. The victim mentality is to blame for most of it. In that mindset, the victim likes to shift blame to others so as to alleviate themselves of that uncomfortability.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem isn't fertility, so offering solutions like that is not working towards the underlying problem.
> 
> 
> You are no longer talking to your wife, but speaking to her inner voice - her pride.
> 
> 
> Good of you to not take it seriously as allowance. Bad of you to take it personally, keep reading.
> 
> Not bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This won't change overnight. The desire to be intimate has to now precede the moving back into the same bed. which brings us to:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The marriage might not be saved, no matter what you do. Understanding and appreciating this is the most important step.
> 2. You have to bolster yourself. This involves not only self-reflection but self-correction. You don't need anything from her, necessarily. Your efforts here will yield positive results whether she agrees to work towards saving the marriage or not.
> 3. You have to give up the fantasy that you can just spark a flame and everything is instantly or quickly back to normal. When marriages degrade like this, you have to approach reconciliation in a different manner. You have to use a bottom-up approach, as you did when you were dating. With acceptance comes power. Realizing that you have no control, gives you more control (desirable outcomes).
> 4. Turn expectations into invitations.
> 5. Stop reasoning with her.
> 6. Be nice and loving, no matter what.
> 7. Someone has to lead the way. You enter the gauntlet, accepting the blows that come your way. When/if you make it through the gauntlet, you let the blows reside in the past.
> 8. Master forgiveness.
> 
> I think that is a good intro. Is it saveable? Of course it is.


Did we read the same thread? The one where the wife is a chronic liar, manipulative, selfish, and generally acts like a c*nt? 

I could summarize this advice in just a few sentences. "Let her treat you like sh*t and take it with a smile until she gets bored treating you like sh*t and moves on with her life. Unless, of course, she decides to keep treating you like sh*t until _you _die..." 

The way this woman has behaved, the very idea of following the advice given in your post makes me nauseous. It's like Spineless Doormat 101.


----------



## citygirl4344

I've read this thread and just kept shaking my head.
She clearly needs help. Obviously depression at the very least going on.
I think someone mentioned a psychiatrist. They are different than therapists and physiologists. I think she needs one if not all three.
There is only so much a human can take before they break. She is in a free fall and is unwilling to even acknowledge it. Like an alcoholic, they first just be open to help.
If it were me..I think I would be out the door long ago. If she were an alcoholic you wouldn't still be with her. 
Tell her you are leaving. Get this over with.
If you decide in the future after she gets help to try again..good for you. 

Good luck. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## turnera

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Just an update. She read one page of the book HNHN, and *said it was stupid and threw it on the floor*. Offered another therapist, *she said no*. There is a therapy session at my Church, *she declined that as well*. She should be moving out in a couple of weeks it seems. She then asks me if I want to join her and her maiden family for Easter this year. *Said not sure.* It will prob. be too difficult for me. Who knows what you've said to your parents about us. Later on in the evening, she tells her dear old mom, that I do not know if I will be going. Then proceeds to tell her, because I (her) make him (me) uncomfortable. Mother asked why, and seemed concerned. Then asked if she wanted me to come. *She said, I couldn't care less*. Come, don't come, doesn't matter to her. Even the mother seemed taken back on that.
> 
> Next, her mom asks what's going on between both of us. She said, nothing different. He (me) just keeps on asking what can he (me) do differently to help right the relationship. Mom asks, you tell him, she says, what's the point. We cannot agree on anything. Then, ask true Jenna fashion, she changes the next sentence as stating, yes, *I've told him several times, but he just doesn't listen.* If she told me, then I wouldn't keep on asking. Yet, she tells me she doesn't want to separate. What bugs me even more is that she tells me one thing, and her parents the other on the same issue. She happy go lucky sometimes, then, hell to be with on the other.
> 
> In addition, in terms of communication, apparently, she has a get together for a friend this weekend's b-day party. They were discussing it. Funny thing, she's *yet to mention this to me*. Anyone else thinks this is a bit strange?


No.

You're being a perfect doormat. Why would she expect anything different?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> How long does she have to get the papers signed and notarized before the court just goes ahead and proceeds with the divorce?


Since it was a DIY I am not sure there is a time limit. Problem is, now she wants someone to look over it for her. So, she may bring lawyers in. Thus, pushing the issue for legal rep. for both sides.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

citygirl4344 said:


> I've read this thread and just kept shaking my head.
> She clearly needs help. Obviously depression at the very least going on.
> I think someone mentioned a psychiatrist. They are different than therapists and physiologists. I think she needs one if not all three.
> There is only so much a human can take before they break. She is in a free fall and is unwilling to even acknowledge it. Like an alcoholic, they first just be open to help.
> If it were me..I think I would be out the door long ago. If she were an alcoholic you wouldn't still be with her.
> Tell her you are leaving. Get this over with.
> If you decide in the future after she gets help to try again..good for you.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


I agree, but she needs to accept that she has blame and faults too. She's not at this point, and things were at a stand still. That is why I (finally) moved with the papers. I wish I could physically leave. However, she's in my apt. She's looking for a place, but getting her to sign the papers is becoming a trying task. I told to consider a psychiatrist too, however, she laughed at me.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

turnera said:


> No.
> 
> You're being a perfect doormat. Why would she expect anything different?


Was trying to be supportive at first. I assumed that is what a spouse does. Not being a doormat. Nonetheless, I needed to put my needs first. Thus the serving of the papers. I believe, if she doesn't answer them in 30 days, it defaults.


----------



## 225985

What deadline did you give her to get out of your apartment?


----------



## citygirl4344

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I agree, but she needs to accept that she has blame and faults too. She's not at this point, and things were at a stand still. That is why I (finally) moved with the papers. I wish I could physically leave. However, she's in my apt. She's looking for a place, but getting her to sign the papers is becoming a trying task. I told to consider a psychiatrist too, however, she laughed at me.



Don't you live close to her family? If you own the apartment...tell her to go live with her mom. If they are so close they should both love that option. 


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> What deadline did you give her to get out of your apartment?


30 days. However, now she wants an attorney to look over the papers. I said fine, however, that doesn't prevent you from moving out. 




citygirl4344 said:


> Don't you live close to her family? If you own the apartment...tell her to go live with her mom. If they are so close they should both love that option.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


I did. She's ashamed to move back into her parent's place at 41. I said, sorry, not my problem. You need to find a place, and find a place soon. They live about an hour a way with traffic. Though, they are closer to where she works.


----------



## Tobyboy

It's going to be interesting if she's does(or not) bring up the plans she has for the weekend. I still say that there's a third party involved!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

What are the laws in NJ for evicting a spouse from the common dwelling?


----------



## 225985

She will be EX wife in 30 days. What is NJ law about evicting ex wife?

She threw the book on the floor? Jeez. 

So now she will be a 41 year old double divorced woman living with her parents. All by her choice.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> What are the laws in NJ for evicting a spouse from the common dwelling?


Cannot do it. She has to leave voluntarily or I have to have the court order it. Regardless, another fight, so she "says" it's too intense at the apt, so she's leaving tomorrow. I'll believe it when I see it.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> She will be EX wife in 30 days. What is NJ law about evicting ex wife?
> 
> She threw the book on the floor? Jeez.
> 
> So now she will be a 41 year old double divorced woman living with her parents. All by her choice.



According to her, she's been a good model wife to me. Bless her heart for her to think that way. No only that, but she even refused a few weeks ago to go see a priest with me to help us through our issues. She doesn't trust them. Another thing I learned is she told me she's never trusted anyone in her life. I do not recall that being told to me before we were getting married. If I knew that, I wouldn't of married her. It's clear she has issues from her previous marriage and other trust issues. 

I am sure she's going to get a lawyer and slow things down a bit. Jenna is never one to do anything on anyone else's turn aside from her own. She's said this a few times to me. No one will tell me (her) what to do and when to do it. Weird to say the least.

Yep, she's going to move into her parents place for a bit. I guess she's going to eventually look for her own pad.


----------



## 225985

MIJ,

It is going to be hard on you when your wife moves out, even though you know that is best for you. You have spent so much energy trying to save your marriage and help your wife. Now that the efforts have stopped, you will have a void in your time, energy, and emotional state. Stay strong. Keep posting. We will never meet but you have people here at TAM that care about you.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I thank you and everyone else for the support and guidance blueinbr. I have a feeling, bad feeling, that this is not going to go away so quickly. She didn't pack and leave like she promised. In addition, the papers I gave her she refused to sign and ripped them up. Therefore, I now have to hire a lawyer and go through the legal channels for a divorce due to Irretrievable Breakdown. She then started yelling and I said you always have to do things the hard way. I do not know why you always choose the hard way, then end result is the same. It's like this nightmare will never end.


----------



## jld

Wow, she ripped up the papers? 

It will be more expensive to divorce through a lawyer, but worth it. My goodness, I hope you don't end up having to take out a restraining order.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

I think she talked to her mom again and told her not to sign it. As soon as I walked into the apt, I said hi and what's up. Said she spoke to her mom and I then said so are you finished packing? You said yesterday you were packing your stuff up and leaving today. She changed her mind. Then she said, oh yea, these papers, I am not signing them. 

I do not think a restraining order is necessary. I just want her to leave the place and we start the legal process already. I do not understand why she is going to make us go through a legal process. I also have to have her served at her place of work. That's not going to go over well for her. Then, I have to see her later on, as SHE'S STILL HERE! Talk about awkward. I thought this way would be much cleaner and easier. Not having to get others involved. Just sign the damn papers, and we go our separate ways. I just do not get it.


----------



## jld

Did you explain all that to her?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Yep, no response. I just am receiving the silent treatment. I will ask again in the morning, if she still will not budge, I will go to an attorney on Monday or Tuesday. I thought I was very fair in the DIY MSA and Divorce Agreement. We both go with what we came into the relationship with. We had no joint accounts. Never co-mingled funds, etc. I do not know what the big deal is. Perhaps she thought I wasn't going to through with it? Perhaps, she was stalling so she can file instead of me (not that it matters). I really do not know her logic. Rest assured it was her mom who built her up on this, as she was talking to the witch when I walked in. They were probably going over agreement. It's as fair as they come. Now, to bring in attorneys for a short marriage? Just a waste of money for both of us. Although, it should be complete within 90 days. I just have to see if the attorney can help get her out of the apt. It's not marital (I purchased it with my parents, and they are on the deed, not me.). She also knows this. So again, I have no idea what game she's playing.


----------



## TheTruthHurts

You're not really listening. You are trying to be logical and passive and are assuming she will miraculously succumb to your logic, sign and move out.

You do realize that is delusional thinking, right?

That's exactly why I told you to EXPOSE the VAR and dialog with her mom. What will happen? She will freak! BUT - this is the part you seem incapable of understanding - she will be CONFRONTED DIRECTLY with her conflicting thoughts.

YES It is illogical. Of course! She isn't thinking - she's reacting - to you and her mom. She's saying what each of you wants to hear! So if you EXPOSE this - she will have to confront it.

She might even form her OWN opinion!

If you expose - then the gigs up. You give her the proof. Make HER explain why you should stay married to someone who trash talks their spouse!

I would transcribe some and give her the transcription. Don't say how you know but say there's hours of this and you can "get it". Leave it vague like a PI got it for you. If she presses and says it's a lie, say BS you've heard it with your own ears.

Sorry it won't be easy regardless. But those are my thoughts.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Yep, no response. I just am receiving the silent treatment. I will ask again in the morning, if she still will not budge, I will go to an attorney on Monday or Tuesday. I thought I was very fair in the DIY MSA and Divorce Agreement. We both go with what we came into the relationship with. We had no joint accounts. Never co-mingled funds, etc. I do not know what the big deal is. Perhaps she thought I wasn't going to through with it? Perhaps, she was stalling so she can file instead of me (not that it matters). I really do not know her logic. Rest assured it was her mom who built her up on this, as she was talking to the witch when I walked in. They were probably going over agreement. It's as fair as they come. Now, to bring in attorneys for a short marriage? Just a waste of money for both of us. Although, it should be complete within 90 days. I just have to see if the attorney can help get her out of the apt. It's not marital (I purchased it with my parents, and they are on the deed, not me.). She also knows this. So again, I have no idea what game she's playing.


I think she may get a better deal financially if she goes with a lawyer. I think you have to split everything 50/50, not just leave with what you started with. Have you checked the NJ laws on that?


----------



## 225985

MIJ, do you know any of the details of you wife's first divorce? Did she get a lawyer? Was it a long divorce process?

Do you know the true reasons why her first marriage ended?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

TheTruthHurts said:


> You're not really listening. You are trying to be logical and passive and are assuming she will miraculously succumb to your logic, sign and move out.
> 
> You do realize that is delusional thinking, right?
> 
> That's exactly why I told you to EXPOSE the VAR and dialog with her mom. What will happen? She will freak! BUT - this is the part you seem incapable of understanding - she will be CONFRONTED DIRECTLY with her conflicting thoughts.
> 
> YES It is illogical. Of course! She isn't thinking - she's reacting - to you and her mom. She's saying what each of you wants to hear! So if you EXPOSE this - she will have to confront it.
> 
> She might even form her OWN opinion!
> 
> If you expose - then the gigs up. You give her the proof. Make HER explain why you should stay married to someone who trash talks their spouse!
> 
> I would transcribe some and give her the transcription. Don't say how you know but say there's hours of this and you can "get it". Leave it vague like a PI got it for you. If she presses and says it's a lie, say BS you've heard it with your own ears.
> 
> Sorry it won't be easy regardless. But those are my thoughts.


You make some valid points. However, playing the VARs to her is a crime within NJ. I do not want this to turn ugly like that. I




jld said:


> I think she may get a better deal financially if she goes with a lawyer. I think you have to split everything 50/50, not just leave with what you started with. Have you checked the NJ laws on that?


Certainly possible, but she earns more than me. NJ is an equitable property state. I do not want anything of hers, however, my retirement account is larger. She doesn't contribute as she has a pension. That's the only sticky point.

She told me this morning she wanted to try a trial separation for six months instead of a divorce. She will not sign any divorce papers at this time. She won't even sign legal separation papers. Very difficult situation. She is moving out though.



blueinbr said:


> MIJ, do you know any of the details of you wife's first divorce? Did she get a lawyer? Was it a long divorce process?
> 
> Do you know the true reasons why her first marriage ended?


I do not know much. I have a copy of the decree, but never read it. It doesn't state what the cause was aside from adultery on his part. She also said he was crazy. She did have a lawyer, but they walked away with mostly what they came with. They had a home together which they purchased, so he bought her out. They had a trial separation, then legal separation for a year, then divorce. About 2 year process it seems by the numbers.


----------



## jld

You are talking with a lawyer Monday, right? Read up on the legal points yourself this weekend. You can divorce if you want, correct? It does not matter what she says, right? 

I would go for that divorce. There may be a waiting period, but you surely cannot be held in a marriage you no longer want.

My gosh, how stressful.

And be ready to sacrifice some of that retirement. There are some costs to divorce. But freedom is surely worth it.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

Yes. I am seeing one on Monday. Hope she's good. I just didn't want to go through the retainer and fees. It can take 90 days if she doesn't fight it. Most lawyers tell you to put a separation agreement in place so that becomes effective immediately. She will not sign either. I cannot have a separation agreement unless she signs. Thus, she can hold up the process for a while. She even said I will probably go the legal route. I did all the papers and form DIY to save money. Therefore, we'd just have to sign the papers and we'd be done. Nope, she will not. I said what don't you like? It can be changed, everything. Can't win.


----------



## jld

How long will it take without her agreement?


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> How long will it take without her agreement?


Goes to trial w/o both parties agreeing. It's a long time.


----------



## jld

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> Goes to trial w/o both parties agreeing. It's a long time.


Oh, dear. I hope your attorney, and hers, can shorten it.

She is probably looking at that retirement, though.

When you say long time, what does that mean?


----------



## 225985

Read her prior divorce decree.

The adultery may explain her inability to trust anyone. If that is what happened. 

As for her saying her ex was crazy, you know from the VARs that she normally says the opposite of what really happened. 

I suspect she will want to follow the same divorce process as last time since that is what she knows. 

Did you ever get her check for the taxes?

Any chance to call her ex and get the real story so that you know what she might pull during the divorce. That guy might be very willing to help you if she screwed him during the divorce. 

If your wife has a pension, go after that.


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

jld said:


> Oh, dear. I hope your attorney, and hers, can shorten it.
> 
> She is probably looking at that retirement, though.
> 
> When you say long time, what does that mean?


All she needs is to agree. I already said I will edit it to her liking. She said, she doesn't want to be forced or bullied into signing anything. WTF? Hence the reason why she wants to now do a "trial" separation w/o a legal document. I disagree. Hence, now we need lawyers. Makes no sense to incur excess expenses when it is unneeded for both of us. It was a short marriage, the courts have always attempted to make each party back to where they were financially before marriage. Since she earns more than me, she has nothing to gain. Yes, she can go after my 401k, however, she has a pension AND 401k as well. Her pension is vested and the 401k was setup during our marriage at my insistence. 



blueinbr said:


> Read her prior divorce decree.
> 
> The adultery may explain her inability to trust anyone. If that is what happened.
> 
> As for her saying her ex was crazy, you know from the VARs that she normally says the opposite of what really happened.
> 
> I suspect she will want to follow the same divorce process as last time since that is what she knows.
> 
> Did you ever get her check for the taxes?
> 
> Any chance to call her ex and get the real story so that you know what she might pull during the divorce. That guy might be very willing to help you if she screwed him during the divorce.
> 
> If your wife has a pension, go after that.


I understand that her past relationship causes her pause in terms of trust and money. However, that is not me. She agrees. I am sorry that the guy emptied her bank account, but again, that is/was not me. I am really being judged because of someone else's behavior. Nonetheless, that is why we're splitting. If that is so, why act like this? It's like we're stuck in neutral and she refuses to get into gear. Any gear. Very strange on a emotional and logical level.

Yes, I will review the divorce decree and see what it says. Perhaps bring it with me to the lawyer. She doesn't know I have the copy. I guess that's one good reason for me that she's unorganized. Yes, she gave me the check for the taxes w/o much fuss. She's not going to mess with the IRS or NJ taxation department. She knows, no one wants to be on either department's radar. 

I tried once before we got married, never returned my call. I could FB him and see if he responds. I just do not get what she said about him though. Her mom and dad also reconfirmed said statements (not saying that matters or not). If he was so bad, and so "crazy and unstable", then why is he remarried with two kids already?

Not really looking to go after anything. I just want her to keep what she has and I keep what I have. Nice and easy. Simple. No fuss.

The divorce process was what I was always afraid of in marriage. I should had listened to my gut and NOT gotten married. It's just too easy to get married and too complicated to get divorced. The system is not a good system.


----------



## jld

Yes, probably an unnecessary expense, but where you are now.


----------



## 225985

My suggestion was that if she goes after your larger retirement then you go after her pension. That might make her rethink. 

I know you don't want it. P


----------



## MarriageInJeopardy

blueinbr said:


> My suggestion was that if she goes after your larger retirement then you go after her pension. That might make her rethink.
> 
> I know you don't want it. P


I am sure, when she cools down, things may be more amicable. However, she sure has a weird way of venting her frustrations. She and her mom were talking, on speaker, and I was cooking in the kitchen. Apparently, they were both bickering in what I do for her. Apparently nothing. I cook, clean, pay most of the bills, go food shopping, fix her things, etc; alas, I do nothing. Also, back when we were married, she asked to go on my medical plan. Her's at work is horrible she says. I said, okay, you need to help pay for it though. It's about 752 a month. She said no prob. I need a comprehensive plan due to my medical issues. I can pay mine with no problem, but adding her to the mix made the plan very expensive. Apparently, to the mom and the therapist, I should had paid for that. In fact, she should not have to pay or help pay for anything. She earns more than me. I cover taxes and everything else it seems. I could not afford to pay for both. She asked me to go on my plan. Am I missing something? Her expenses before her moving in to my place were:

1250 - rent
300 - utilities
300 - food
175 - cable/phone/internet
250 - health insurance
100 - cell
400 - car
100 - car insurance
200 - fuel
200 - tolls
400 - restaurants/drinks
300 - misc.
=========================
3975


After moving in:
752 - health insurance
100 - cell
400 - car
100 - car insurance
300 - fuel
250 - tolls
300 - restaurants/drinks
550 - misc.
=========================
2752


How did she, moving in with me, not help her financially? How have I not helped her with her budget? Why should I, especially when I do not have the means to do so, have to pay for her health insurance when she could had stayed on her own plan? She asked me, not the reverse? If we had a kid, then yes, I would had paid for him/her. I just feel that my value was not appreciated at all.

There were some other things they talked about, however, when she heard her mom questioning her about them (complaining about me), she changed direction to where it made her look better. Apparently, I am impossible to live with (they why are you still here). I am a horrible husband to her and to any other woman (ironically, two days ago, I was a good husband). She complained that she didn't want a divorce nor separation, and she doesn't understand my hesitancy in kicking her out. 

This one is good too. She needs to get ready to joint for the door when I tell my mom that we're divorcing and we'll never do anything again together as a complete family. Apparently, I will not be able to handle my mom's response, and I will get angry and take it out on her.:surprise: I then interjected and said, oh, told mom, she's sad to hear about our divorce, but is not getting involved. It would be nice if another in-law would do the same. She then said, oh, mom, I gotta go.

I just do not understand the constant lying and trying to keep up a front. How do you say one thing to me, but then, turn it around and say it completely different to her mom? I know I shouldn't concern myself about it anymore, but I just wonder sometimes, am I doing/did something wrong, or did I not handle myself as a proper spouse? I wonder maybe I did something to cause this. Something to look out for in future relationships.


----------



## MJJEAN

If you want my guess, I'd say she was likely very similar in her first marriage. Which would explain the affair. Men in miserable marriages who don't leave sometimes resort to cheating instead.

Anyways, none of it matters. Not how she behaves or why she behaves that way or what her and her Pit Viper mother talk about. All that matters now is that she moves out and you get the divorce papers filed.


----------



## 225985

MJJEAN said:


> *If you want my guess, I'd say she was likely very similar in her first marriage. Which would explain the affair. Men in miserable marriages who don't leave sometimes resort to cheating instead.*


I was thinking exactly this when I read OP's comments about her first marriage.


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## jld

MJJEAN said:


> Men and women in miserable marriages who don't leave sometimes resort to cheating instead.


Editorial comment.


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## 225985

jld said:


> Editorial comment.


That is irrelevant to this thread and the OP, unless you are implying OP's wife is cheating.


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## 225985

MarriageInJeopardy said:


> I just wonder sometimes, am I doing/did something wrong, or did I not handle myself as a proper spouse? I wonder maybe I did something to cause this. Something to look out for in future relationships.


MIJ, you did nothing wrong. You tried everything you and others could think of and you had near universal agreement on TAM for you to separate from your wife. Sometimes there is NOTHING ANYONE can do to fix a situation.

You can only control you, not J. For what you describe and have done, you love your wife dearly. Regardless, that is not enough. She may be in perpetual "victim mode" and exists only that way. You are still young and can find other person to love and who can love you the way you want. It will be hard but try not to bring the baggage from this marriage forward into your future relationships. You have been in "analysis mode" and "fix it" mode for so long you run risk of analyzing everything a future partner will say or do. 

YOU DID NOT CAUSE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MarriageInJeopardy

MJJEAN said:


> If you want my guess, I'd say she was likely very similar in her first marriage. Which would explain the affair. Men in miserable marriages who don't leave sometimes resort to cheating instead.
> 
> Anyways, none of it matters. Not how she behaves or why she behaves that way or what her and her Pit Viper mother talk about. All that matters now is that she moves out and you get the divorce papers filed.


I know and I figured that as well. I'd state this numerous times, she told me I was paranoid. Just sticking to her facts, she claims he cheated, but could not prove it; not that it matters. Just disclosing everything. She's slowly moving out. She spent the weekend at her parents. Came back today, and I said, what happened? She's doing it in stages... She was very said and seemed upset. 




blueinbr said:


> MIJ, you did nothing wrong. You tried everything you and others could think of and you had near universal agreement on TAM for you to separate from your wife. Sometimes there is NOTHING ANYONE can do to fix a situation.
> 
> You can only control you, not J. For what you describe and have done, you love your wife dearly. Regardless, that is not enough. She may be in perpetual "victim mode" and exists only that way. You are still young and can find other person to love and who can love you the way you want. It will be hard but try not to bring the baggage from this marriage forward into your future relationships. You have been in "analysis mode" and "fix it" mode for so long you run risk of analyzing everything a future partner will say or do.
> 
> YOU DID NOT CAUSE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



We were both wrong in the relationship, if you want to call it that. Granted my was based off of grief and hospitalization, it really doesn't matter. What's done is done. I guess, I am trying to rationalize her actions, where, since they are all based off of resentment, there really isn't any rationalization. I did speak to the lawyer, as I requested an immediate call back, and she did state, it may be easier to officially serve her when she's out of the apt and on her own (within a week or two). She doesn't want an argument (or worse) to break out when she comes home after being served at work. I just have to be patient and go with the punches. 

I believe I've tried everything to rectify the situation; she didn't bulge or care. As we now know, and she continues to say to her mom, she doesn't care anymore. My question then, why is she making it so hard to move on and leave? Obviously, deep down, she has to know that her actions are making things worse, not better. However, again, as to her own admissions, she cannot help it. Fair enough. At least this all came out before any children. Can you imagine how this would be if there were kids involved? 

It's just a shame. How such a apparently strong relationship broke down to nothing. I guess, it was a ruse all along. Or, it was fine as long as I went along with her game plan. Wish I saw this during our dating years. Much easier to break a relationship without the state of NJ being involved. 


I appreciate your help and comments, as well as all of the other people who've posted in a 40 + page long thread.


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## JohnA

How long can she stay on your insurance though your work once the divorce goes though? Usually it ends rght away but can be extended though a corba. 

Unless the laws have changed since my divorce (in Jerseys) property own free and clear is not joint and is not included in a split of assets. Bye the way if you separate and she moves out you might be able to prevent her from moving back in since she has no ownership stake.


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## MarriageInJeopardy

JohnA said:


> How long can she stay on your insurance though your work once the divorce goes though? Usually it ends rght away but can be extended though a corba.
> 
> Unless the laws have changed since my divorce (in Jerseys) property own free and clear is not joint and is not included in a split of assets. Bye the way if you separate and she moves out you might be able to prevent her from moving back in since she has no ownership stake.


The work plan is crap, so I am on ACA. I added my wife to my plan at her request. She recently told me she can go back on her companies plan at anytime, even outside of open enrollment. Therefore, after she moves out, I was going to request for her to go back on her company's health plan to cut costs for me. With ACA, I am not sure if I am required to keep her on until the official divorce decree. I will check with the lawyer on that. All in all, the lawyer says be amicable and continue to encourage her to move out into her parents house or her own place as quickly as possible. I can always request a court ordered eviction, but I rather not go that route. It would be really uncool to have a Sheriff come and escort her out with her crap. I hope it doesn't come to that. That would also make negotiations very hard. I do not foresee myself doing that to her. I am not as "evil" or "mean" as she claims. 

I am more concerned about the retirement and my side business. I was told, in terms of the retirement, since her pension and 403b have been active for 9 years compared to my 401k which is active only about 3 years, it's likely she'd agree to keep that separate, as in the financial sense, her pension is worth more than my 401k alone. I have a side business that I am also concerned about. It's not much, but it is a concern. Again, I was told since she really didn't have any involvement in the business, and really stuck to herself (not helping with domestic or medical things for me), chances are that will be okay as well. She can ask for the moon and go after everything, but since it was such a short marriage, chances are she will made to be like she was before the marriage financially.

We'll see if that happens or not. Regardless, it's not going to be a fun time the next few months.


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