# Dating in late 20s + How hard is it to find a good guy?



## MaBi123

Single/Separated/Divorced Ladies over 25:

What is your experience "getting back out there?" I ask because my relationship isn't going well, and I'm wondering what it would be like to date again (I AM NOT CHEATING OR DATING NOW BTW). I'm going to be 28 soon, and I haven't dated since I was barely 23.

My cousin (who is now 33) started dating her ex husband when she was 22. They divorced when she was 31. I never thought dating in your late 20s or early 30s would be that much different than your early 20s, but she says it's impossible to find a good guy in her age range (30-40). She says they are all creeps/jerks just looking for a ONS or they have major commitment issues. Her theory is all the good guys are scooped up by the time they are 30. Apparently she has some single and divorced friends around the same age as her who have had the same observations.

Looking back, I remember hearing men say stuff like "Women start to 'rot' when they are in their late 20s" and "Women in their early 20s are the hottest." But I thought those were just the jerks and I didn't pay too much attention. 

Now I'm reading all these studies saying that men in their 30s and older prefer and pursue women under 25. 

So is it hard to find a good guy in your late 20s and beyond? Or are my cousin and her friends doing something wrong?


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## Jellybeans

MaBi123 said:


> My cousin (who is now 33) started dating her ex husband when she was 22. They divorced when she was 31. I never thought dating in your late 20s or early 30s would be that much different than your early 20s, but she says it's impossible to find a good guy in her age range (30-40). She says they are all creeps/jerks just looking for a ONS or they have major commitment issues. Her theory is all the good guys are scooped up by the time they are 30.


Ah, I love when people lump everyone in the same category, such as what your cousin is doing.

I met my EX husband in my early 20s and we divorced when I was 30. I am thirty-two now and have zero desire to remarry. A companion/lover--sure that sounds great. I think no matter what point you are at in your life you will meet people with baggage--those who do n't want to commit, those who are creeps, but to say there are no good men out there and they are all "jerks/creeps" is ridiculous.

Dating is odd to me, it always has k ind of been. I am older now and will say I put up with a lot less now. For instance, if I am not feeling a relationship, I simply do not go there or stay in it to drag it out. I am much more sexually aware of myself now, more self-aware, too. I feel like a woman now and that is the advantage to when I was in my early 20s when looking back, I seemed like such a kid.

But finding a good partner -- at any age, I think is a bit like finding a needle in a haystack. If we were meant to fall in love with each person we met/went on a date with, well then, it wouldn't be as special, would it?

To say there are no good men is a stupid concept though. And it's insulting to men.


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## MaBi123

Jellybeans said:


> To say there are no good men is a stupid concept though. And it's insulting to men.


It is, but I have heard it over and over again, and not just from her. I have even heard it from men.


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## PHTlump

I'm not a lady. But, as a man, I think I can speak to what men find attractive.

Are young women more attractive than older women? Yes. Sorry. Wrinkles happen. Things sag. Fertility declines. Physically, it is what it is.

However, physical beauty is only part of the equation. For men looking for marriage, older women aren't great bets. Why is the older woman single? A divorce? I would be worried about making a lifetime commitment to a woman who has already divorced one, or more, husband(s). Did the older woman not marry, but spend 10-15 years serially dating before deciding to look for a husband? Again, most men don't really want reformed party girls mothering their children.

The logical response for men is to either court women for sex, rather than marriage, or to look to marriage-minded younger women. A woman in her early twenties claiming to be serious about finding a husband is much more believable than a woman in her thirties claiming the same thing.

However, these observations are general. There are lots of men out there. And, while most of them may be looking for sex with you, or marriage with younger women, the law of large numbers dictates that several of them will be looking for marriage with you. As a 28 year-old, you will be far better off than a 38 year-old, or a 48 year-old.

Good luck.


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## thunderstruck

MaBi123 said:


> Looking back, I remember hearing men say stuff like "Women start to 'rot' when they are in their late 20s"
> 
> Now I'm reading all these studies saying that men in their 30s and older prefer and pursue women under 25.


Guy here...I'd say to stop reading "all these studies." At 28, you are way too young to think you're rotting and/or need to be put on a shelf. Plenty of guys out there looking in your age range.


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## MaBi123

PHTlump said:


> I'm not a lady. But, as a man, I think I can speak to what men find attractive.
> 
> Are young women more attractive than older women? Yes. Sorry. Wrinkles happen. Things sag. Fertility declines. Physically, it is what it is.
> 
> However, physical beauty is only part of the equation. For men looking for marriage, older women aren't great bets. Why is the older woman single? A divorce? I would be worried about making a lifetime commitment to a woman who has already divorced one, or more, husband(s). Did the older woman not marry, but spend 10-15 years serially dating before deciding to look for a husband? Again, most men don't really want reformed party girls mothering their children.
> 
> The logical response for men is to either court women for sex, rather than marriage, or to look to marriage-minded younger women. A woman in her early twenties claiming to be serious about finding a husband is much more believable than a woman in her thirties claiming the same thing.
> 
> However, these observations are general. There are lots of men out there. And, while most of them may be looking for sex with you, or marriage with younger women, the law of large numbers dictates that several of them will be looking for marriage with you. As a 28 year-old, you will be far better off than a 38 year-old, or a 48 year-old.
> 
> Good luck.


Couldn't you say the same about men in that age range though? Men get saggy and wrinkly too. 

And couldn't women have the same concerns about a man in his 30s who was serially dating for 10-15 years. Women don't want a has-been frat guy, either.


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## TiggyBlue

MaBi123 said:


> Couldn't you say the same about men in that age range though? Men get saggy and wrinkly too.
> 
> And couldn't women have the same concerns about a man in his 30s who was serially dating for 10-15 years. Women don't want a has-been frat guy, either.


Pretty much PHTlump said is the same concerns/thoughts women have about men imo.
But my mum was 42 when she got with her husband (who was 29) so at 28 really don't let others opinions worry you, a attitude that all are creeps/jerks will put off anyone (might explain why you cousin and her friends aren't doing so great in the dating world).
Positivity and confidence is attractive.


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## thunderstruck

MaBi123 said:


> It is, but I have heard it over and over again, and not just from her. I have even heard it from men.


You hear men saying there are no good men?:scratchhead:

Maybe the men and women who are telling you this can't attract good partners, so they just go with this "there are no good men/women" crap.


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## Jellybeans

MaBi123 said:


> It is, but I have heard it over and over again, and not just from her. I have even heard it from men.


Well, if you have resigned to this way of thinking and believe it to be true, then what does it matter?

You are going to get older, unless you die young. It's a fact of life. People grow and age.


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## always_alone

MaBi123 said:


> Looking back, I remember hearing men say stuff like "Women start to 'rot' when they are in their late 20s" and "Women in their early 20s are the hottest." But I thought those were just the jerks and I didn't pay too much attention.
> 
> Now I'm reading all these studies saying that men in their 30s and older prefer and pursue women under 25.
> 
> So is it hard to find a good guy in your late 20s and beyond? Or are my cousin and her friends doing something wrong?


There are lots of good men out there. Just stick with your original plan of dismissing guys who think women in their late 20s and beyond are "rotting" as jerks. They are.

If they can't see any value in a woman with experience, intelligence, and maturity, this is their failing, not yours, and you're undoubtedly better off without them.

I used to think all the good ones were snapped up early too, but the truth is sometimes they've been overlooked, or like you have had a false start. I met my SO at age 30, when I had all but given up hope.


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## always_alone

TiggyBlue said:


> a attitude that all are creeps/jerks will put off anyone (might explain why you cousin and her friends aren't doing so great in the dating world).
> Positivity and confidence is attractive.


Well, seems to me there really are a lot of creeps and jerks out there. The trick is not to pretend they don't exist but to learn to spot them quickly and look elsewhere.


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## MaBi123

thunderstruck said:


> You hear men saying there are no good men?:scratchhead:
> 
> Maybe the men and women who are telling you this can't attract good partners, so they just go with this "there are no good men/women" crap.


Yep, men have told me: "guys decide if they want to get married by 30 and then they get married." and "The ones who are over 30 are usually just looking for fun" Literally just heard that from a guy a couple months ago.


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## Jellybeans

always_alone said:


> Well, seems to me there really are a lot of creeps and jerks out there. The trick is not to pretend they don't exist but to learn to spot them quickly and look elsewhere.


Well it sounds like you already know what to do.


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## TiggyBlue

always_alone said:


> Well, seems to me there really are a lot of creeps and jerks out there. The trick is not to pretend they don't exist but to learn to spot them quickly and look elsewhere.


Yh there definitely is, but the attitude that all men creeps/jerks are will keep the decent guys away.


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## PHTlump

MaBi123 said:


> Couldn't you say the same about men in that age range though? Men get saggy and wrinkly too.
> 
> And couldn't women have the same concerns about a man in his 30s who was serially dating for 10-15 years. Women don't want a has-been frat guy, either.


If you believe that men and women think the same way, are motivated by the same things, want the same things, and are attracted to the same things in mates, then yes, everything I wrote would apply equally to men and women.

If you believe that there are differences between the sexes that extend beyond genitalia, then no, what I wrote doesn't apply equally to men and women.


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## 3Xnocharm

I'm 43. Good men are really not hard to find, BUT...finding one that you are seriously INTERESTED in who is also interested in YOU..? MUCH more difficult!!


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## samyeagar

PHTlump said:


> If you believe that men and women think the same way, are motivated by the same things, want the same things, and are attracted to the same things in mates, then yes, everything I wrote would apply equally to men and women.
> 
> If you believe that there are differences between the sexes that extend beyond genitalia, then no, what I wrote doesn't apply equally to men and women.


Women generally are looking for among other things, hysical and finacial security. Men generally aren't. Older men generally do not need or care that a woman is financially independant because he already is. A 20 something woman is generally not in a financial position to support a family, so the older man is more attractive.

I am not saying this is the greatest blueprint for a long happy marriage, but it the path that a lot of people go down.


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## badcompany

3Xnocharm said:


> I'm 43. Good men are really not hard to find, BUT...finding one that you are seriously INTERESTED in who is also interested in YOU..? MUCH more difficult!!


That's so true 3X, you can find someone with similar interests, a personality and appearance that you find attractive, and it's still nothing if the feelings don't go both ways.


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## Jellybeans

3Xnocharm said:


> I'm 43. Good men are really not hard to find, BUT...finding one that you are seriously INTERESTED in who is also interested in YOU..? MUCH more difficult!!


Indeed. Needle. Haystack.


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## Faithful Wife

sam said: "A 20 something woman is generally not in a financial position to support a family, so the older man is more attractive.

I am not saying this is the greatest blueprint for a long happy marriage, but it the path that a lot of people go down."



Do you have ANY figures to support this? Or is this just something that men keep telling each other?

Because the average age difference between married spouses is 4 years.

So where do you get "a lot of people" from? Give a percentage, and then back it up with data maybe?

Or if you are just saying you "believe this" to be true with no data, could you say that?


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> sam said: "A 20 something woman is generally not in a financial position to support a family, so the older man is more attractive.
> 
> I am not saying this is the greatest blueprint for a long happy marriage, but it the path that a lot of people go down."
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have ANY figures to support this? Or is this just something that men keep telling each other?
> 
> Because the average age difference between married spouses is 4 years.
> 
> So where do you get "a lot of people" from? Give a percentage, and then back it up with data maybe?
> 
> Or if you are just saying you "believe this" to be true with no data, could you say that?


The point I was addressing was older men and the attraction of younger women, and younger women being attracted to older men. In no way did I say any of this was the norm, or most. 

It was a very valid explanaion of how women and men look for different things in a partner. Not saying it doesn't happen, but men generally aren't as concerned with a womans ability to provide him financial security, as a woman is with a mans. A mans ability to provide financially IS an attraction factor for many if not most women. It's certainly not the only factor, and may not be enough of a factor to attract her for keeps, but a man having money and the ability to earn money is generally more of a turn on for women than the reverse is for men.


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## Faithful Wife

But there doesn't seem to be any statistical data that supports the theory that "older men marry younger women".

All you are saying then is "older men may WANT to marry younger women"....right?

And then all the older men in the world also tell themselves that those younger women WANT to marry them, as well.

Yet there is no data.

Why do you guys keep telling yourselves this?

And please, no individual cases of "well my friend/brother/uncle was 15 years older than his wife" yada yada. The statistics do not support it.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> But there doesn't seem to be any statistical data that supports the theory that "older men marry younger women".
> 
> *All you are saying then is "older men may WANT to marry younger women"....right?*
> 
> And then all the older men in the world also tell themselves that those younger women WANT to marry them, as well.
> 
> Yet there is no data.
> 
> Why do you guys keep telling yourselves this?
> 
> And please, no individual cases of "well my friend/brother/uncle was 15 years older than his wife" yada yada. The statistics do not support it.


I'm not saying anything about actually marrying at all, in fact, I kind of clumsily said the opposite. My meaning for it not being a good blueprint for a long happy marriage, but a lot of people try or actually think just that.

I was simply talking about attraction factors and what would explain a 20 something's interest in an older man. It is pretty obvious that an older man could be interested in a 20 something woman because of her looks, but the reason I SPECIFICALLY picked financial and physical security is that it IS an attraction factor that a younger woman often feels towards an older man, as it is unlikely that LOOKS are going to be a primary factor, or more important than money. I was also pointing out that men and women DO think differently at different ages, that a 20 something woman, and 40 something man aren't very likely to end up together because they BOTH find the other PHYSICALLY hot.


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## Thebes

I think all men do want younger women, I know my husband does but does a younger woman really want to look at his old butt. I bet not


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## treyvion

MaBi123 said:


> Single/Separated/Divorced Ladies over 25:
> 
> What is your experience "getting back out there?" I ask because my relationship isn't going well, and I'm wondering what it would be like to date again (I AM NOT CHEATING OR DATING NOW BTW). I'm going to be 28 soon, and I haven't dated since I was barely 23.
> 
> My cousin (who is now 33) started dating her ex husband when she was 22. They divorced when she was 31. I never thought dating in your late 20s or early 30s would be that much different than your early 20s, but she says it's impossible to find a good guy in her age range (30-40). She says they are all creeps/jerks just looking for a ONS or they have major commitment issues. Her theory is all the good guys are scooped up by the time they are 30. Apparently she has some single and divorced friends around the same age as her who have had the same observations.
> 
> Looking back, I remember hearing men say stuff like "Women start to 'rot' when they are in their late 20s" and "Women in their early 20s are the hottest." But I thought those were just the jerks and I didn't pay too much attention.
> 
> Now I'm reading all these studies saying that men in their 30s and older prefer and pursue women under 25.
> 
> So is it hard to find a good guy in your late 20s and beyond? Or are my cousin and her friends doing something wrong?


Are you wishing to date a profile which has been cheated on and left, hence "divorced"? Those are out there, and used to being married and just want a stable and supportive relationship, which doesn't appear very often in single land.


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## Faithful Wife

Ok sam, right.

So it is the same as saying that many women *WISH* they could marry a man like Tom Brady...ie: tall, rich, hot, famous, and maybe or maybe not older than she is, (that part isn't what she "wishes for", the tall, hot and rich part are).

See, the thing is...there is an agenda going around that is trying to convince women that if they leave their husbands, no man is going to want them...because she is damaged goods, she's older now, and men only want young virginal wives.

So I was worried you were on THAT agenda, based on the "like" and quotes you had done on this post. See what I'm saying?

And my point is only...yeah so many older men WISH they could marry younger women...yet since the statistics don't show that this happens "a lot", I'd say this shows that those young women DO NOT want to marry those old men, or else they would be doing it.

It is totally fair to say "men wish this" and "women with that"...it doesn't really mean anything though.


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## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> If you believe that there are differences between the sexes that extend beyond genitalia, then no, what I wrote doesn't apply equally to men and women.


I have to agree with Mabi123 here. Doubt there are very many women who are at all interested in a has-been frat boy or a wrinkly old fart.


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok sam, right.
> 
> So it is the same as saying that many women *WISH* they could marry a man like Tom Brady...ie: tall, rich, hot, famous, and maybe or maybe not older than she is, (that part isn't what she "wishes for", the tall, hot and rich part are).
> 
> *See, the thing is...there is an agenda going around that is trying to convince women that if they leave their husbands, no man is going to want them...because she is damaged goods, she's older now, and men only want young virginal wives.
> 
> So I was worried you were on THAT agenda, based on the "like" and quotes you had done on this post. See what I'm saying?*
> 
> And my point is only...yeah so many older men WISH they could marry younger women...yet since the statistics don't show that this happens "a lot", I'd say this shows that those young women DO NOT want to marry those old men, or else they would be doing it.
> 
> It is totally fair to say "men wish this" and "women with that"...it doesn't really mean anything though.


First off, you really should know better than to think I was on that side of things given my relationship with a woman who is far from virginal, and the fact that she has completely swept me off my feet.

My 'Likes" and quotes were only to support the idea that men and women do look at things differently. We have differing attraction factors, and as a woman, to think about future dating at an older age and apply a womans thought process to what men in the same dating pool are thinking, is going to cause problems because men and women DON'T think the same way.

I understand that I am a pure anecdote, a single data point, but since my seperation and divorce, I found dating to be much easier and straight forward. The quality of women, at least the qualities I was looking for, were much higher than when I was younger. That is because both me, and the women were older, had more life experience, knew what we were looking for, and had grown up enough to not play games trying to find it. For me, though I didn't always date within these criteria, for another relationship, I wanted a woman divorced from a long term marriage with older kids, not a cheater, and believed sex should be a priority in a relationship.


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## Faithful Wife

sam said: "First off, you really should know better than to think I was on that side of things given my relationship with a woman who is far from virginal, and the fact that she has completely swept me off my feet."

That is why I was surprised you liked and quoted those particular posts, sam...because THOSE posts are part of the agenda I mentioned, and I did not think that was who you are.

I don't actually think men and women DO look at things differently, though. I think women would want rich, young, hot men if there were enough of them to go around, but since there are not, then a few women who are focused on money will have to "give up" their desire for "hot and young" in order to go for the rich old man. BUT if there were more young hot men with money, do you think any young woman wouldn't pick that over a old wrinkly man with money?


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> sam said: "First off, you really should know better than to think I was on that side of things given my relationship with a woman who is far from virginal, and the fact that she has completely swept me off my feet."
> 
> That is why I was surprised you liked and quoted those particular posts, sam...because THOSE posts are part of the agenda I mentioned, and I did not think that was who you are.
> 
> I don't actually think men and women DO look at things differently, though. *I think women would want rich, young, hot men if there were enough of them to go around, but since there are not, then a few women who are focused on money will have to "give up" their desire for "hot and young" in order to go for the rich old man. BUT if there were more young hot men with money, do you think any young woman wouldn't pick that over a old wrinkly man with money*?


Of course the young hot and rich would win out every time if all else were equal. And you are right, there are not enough men who fit the dreams of all the women, just as there are not enough women to fill the dream demand among men. At that point, things have to be prioritized, and men and women do prioritize differently.


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## Faithful Wife

Exactly, sam.

It is one thing to talk about what men or women would LIKE to do IF they actually could attract and convince that ideal to marry them.

Yet since statistics would show us that younger women *do not* regularly marry older men, I find it annoying that there is an agenda and campaign which tries to say that these younger women DO marry those older men.

Old men want to marry young women? Sure.

Do they? Nope.

I know you aren't promoting "that agenda"...but it shows up around here a lot and it gets fuzzy for people when we talk about what "men want" without also pointing out "what actually happens".


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## ntamph

OP, I'm 29 and my GF is a 26 year old. And she's a single mom! 

And she's almost too hot to handle. I think that I've lucked out but she thinks she's lucked out. Your friends might just not be as attractive as they think they are. My GF has a whole bunch of apparent "negatives" and "deal breakers" but they really aren't because she is just magnetic. Women don't have expiration dates.


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## MaBi123

Thebes said:


> I think all men do want younger women, I know my husband does but does a younger woman really want to look at his old butt. I bet not


That makes me really sad. I really don't want to get married to someone and then when I'm older notice that he is staring at every young woman that walks by and has no interest in me anymore.


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## MaBi123

Faithful Wife said:


> Exactly, sam.
> 
> It is one thing to talk about what men or women would LIKE to do IF they actually could attract and convince that ideal to marry them.
> 
> Old men want to marry young women? Sure.
> 
> Do they? Nope.


The thing is, I don't want to be the one he settles for. I want to be the one he actually wants to be with, or I would rather just be single. I don't want him to think, "I can't get that hot XX year old, so I guess I'll settle for you."


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## Faithful Wife

Of course, Mabi. No one wants to be settled for.

But...are you settling in your marriage right now? Is your husband?

If not, that's all you need to worry about, right?

I'm 46 and my husband is 50...neither of us settled. We are madly in love and are HOT for each other and don't wish we had someone else. Read my blog for more!


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## samyeagar

Getting back to the OP, from what you've heard, is it a case of unles the man fits every bit of fantasy ideal in every way, he is not a good man?

From my experiences, when it comes to women, good women are a dime a dozen. Hot women are a dime a dozen. Good hot women are every where. I imagine the same is true about men.

If you are going by scripted Hollywood Romantic Comedies with the made up man character whose every word is carefully written for maximum effect, then you are going to be sorely disappointed in the good men around you.

I have also found that the women who complain about there being no good men left are not really doing a whole lot to attract the kinds of men they say they want. They put the blame for their own issues on the men they can't attract because it's easier than working for it. It's also plain lazy.


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## samyeagar

MaBi123 said:


> The thing is, I don't want to be the one he settles for. I want to be the one he actually wants to be with, or I would rather just be single. I don't want him to think, "I can't get that hot XX year old, so I guess I'll settle for you."


I'm 42, my STBW is 38. I didn't settle at all. She's even hotter than Faithful Wife 

Sure, we do have some issues, but they are not major ones, and we are working through them. Part of it is the commitment to your partner and relationship. You are not going to start out with absolute perfection. There is going to be some growing together needed as your wants and needs are better understood.

What makes my STBW and I so hot together and for each other is our ability to communicate and our willingness to WORK together to fulfill our needs together.

Are there objectively better looking women out there than my STBW? Sure. I have been with some. But what I can say with absolute certainty is that I have NEVER been so completely attracted to any woman the way I am her. Not even close. The attraction comes from the positive feedback loop...she is objectively pretty damn hot, but throw in the emotional and mental aspects? Off the charts attraction!


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## MaBi123

PHTlump said:


> If you believe that men and women think the same way, are motivated by the same things, want the same things, and are attracted to the same things in mates, then yes, everything I wrote would apply equally to men and women.
> 
> If you believe that there are differences between the sexes that extend beyond genitalia, then no, what I wrote doesn't apply equally to men and women.


Looks aren't as important to me as they are to some people.

But I DEFINITELY don't want a guy with the frat boy mentality that he never grew out of. I've met a lot of those and it got old fast.


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## MaBi123

samyeagar said:


> Getting back to the OP, from what you've heard, is it a case of unles the man fits every bit of fantasy ideal in every way, he is not a good man?
> 
> From my experiences, when it comes to women, good women are a dime a dozen. Hot women are a dime a dozen. Good hot women are every where. I imagine the same is true about men.
> 
> If you are going by scripted Hollywood Romantic Comedies with the made up man character whose every word is carefully written for maximum effect, then you are going to be sorely disappointed in the good men around you.
> 
> I have also found that the women who complain about there being no good men left are not really doing a whole lot to attract the kinds of men they say they want. They put the blame for their own issues on the men they can't attract because it's easier than working for it. It's also plain lazy.


I'm not doing anything to attract any men at all right now. I'm not even looking because my relationship isn't technically over yet. Even if it ended, I would probably stay single for a while to heal. There have been a lot of problems, but that's a whole different story. Still trying to decide where to go with it.

It's just something I'm concerned about because I've heard the complaints from so many other women.


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## RogerLove

The average age for marriage for men and women is 31 and 29 respectively and on average first date to wedding is 5 years. 

But statistics are only an average and doesn't reflect the true interpretation of how the relationship has progressed. From my experience, I've only encountered a couple of success stories where couple met at a bar/club and more success stories when couples meet through mutual friends.

But on average on half the population of males are married so that means nearly every other guy you see are "eligible". In my opinion it doesn't matter what age you are at when looking for the right partner because it's about establishing the connection on an emotional and intellectual level. I'm a 31 guy and a 21 girl might be nice to look at for 5 seconds but that's as far the attraction goes. For me, a 28 - 33 year old woman will be more appealing to me because the "chances" of connecting on the emotional and intellectual level is assumed to be higher...

The good guys and girls are out there whatever the age, the hard part is finding them and if it was that easy then well divorces wouldn't be so high profile in our modern world with an average of 42% of marriages ending in divorce...


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## samyeagar

MaBi123 said:


> I'm not doing anything to attract any men at all right now. I'm not even looking because my relationship isn't technically over yet. Even if it ended, I would probably stay single for a while to heal. There have been a lot of problems, but that's a whole different story. Still trying to decide where to go with it.
> 
> *It's just something I'm concerned about because I've heard the complaints from so many other women*.


Don't listen to them. Good guys are out there all over the place.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> See, the thing is...there is an agenda going around that is trying to convince women that if they leave their husbands, no man is going to want them...because she is damaged goods, she's older now, and men only want young virginal wives.


As usual, you're misinterpreting my agenda. I'm not arguing that no man will want an older, divorced woman. That kind of straw man would be a ridiculous assertion.

But I am trying to counter the agenda going around that is trying to convince women that, if they leave their husbands, finding another, high quality man will be a snap. Women can easily spend as much time as they want having casual sex with as many men as possible. Then, once they decide they're ready to settle down (again), a billionaire, vampire, pirate captain will be ready and waiting in the wings to whisk her away to a life of effortless bliss.

The data just doesn't bear that out. Women who divorce, especially those who divorce after 40, have a relatively harder time dating and remarrying than men. According to AARP, 31% of women who divorce after 40 remarry, compared to 47% of men. So, perhaps, just perhaps, life after divorce won't be all champagne wishes and caviar dreams.



> It is totally fair to say "men wish this" and "women with that"...it doesn't really mean anything though.


Well, given that the original post was asking about attracting a 30-50 year-old man, I don't really think that the preferences of men can be classified as meaningless. I think men's preferences can be pretty damn important for a single gal looking to attract men.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't actually think men and women DO look at things differently, though.


Science is misogynistic.


----------



## PHTlump

MaBi123 said:


> I really don't want to get married to someone and then when I'm older notice that he is staring at every young woman that walks by ...


If you want to marry someone who doesn't notice young, attractive women, then I suggest you marry a woman. Men are designed, biologically, to notice attractive women.

Sorry to be the one to break the news.


----------



## samyeagar

PHTlump said:


> *If you want to marry someone who doesn't notice young, attractive women, then I suggest you marry a woman*. Men are designed, biologically, to notice attractive women.
> 
> Sorry to be the one to break the news.


Well, if that woman would marry her, then chances are she'd also notice the other young attractive women too, so she's kind of screwed either way


----------



## TiggyBlue

PHTlump said:


> The data just doesn't bear that out. Women who divorce, especially those who divorce after 40, have a relatively harder time dating and remarrying than men. According to AARP, 31% of women who divorce after 40 remarry, compared to 47% of men. So, perhaps, just perhaps, life after divorce won't be all champagne wishes and caviar dreams.


Is that from can't get remarried or don't remarry by choice?
Those statistics don't really say anything about the reason less women remarry after 40 than men.





> Well, given that the original post was asking about attracting a 30-50 year-old man, I don't really think that the preferences of men can be classified as meaningless. I think men's preferences can be pretty damn important for a single gal looking to attract men.


Again a bit of a assumption, she didn't say anything about attracting a man near 50.


----------



## RogerLove

PHTlump said:


> If you want to marry someone who doesn't notice young, attractive women, then I suggest you marry a woman. Men are designed, biologically, to notice attractive women.
> 
> Sorry to be the one to break the news.


For a man or a woman, people will also notice other people. We can be cruel and say they are fugly or we can be nice and say they are pretty/handsome. The circle of friends I'm in have no hesitation to comment when someone is pretty/handsome, it's a compliment and awareness of others. I'm a guy and when one of my girly friends says he's handsome, I would look and see whether or not I agree... and I do the same when we notice girls... I personally don't see anything wrong with noticing things when there's no intent to pursue an affair...


----------



## TiggyBlue

OP the only thing I would say is don't let others experiences/studies put a tainted view on dating in you're late 20's before you've even started dating.


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## Jellybeans

... or she could stay in a bad relationship because she is scared to venture out alone single and believes all the scary stories people are telling her about never being able to meet another man eventhough there are 7 billion people on the planet.


----------



## PHTlump

TiggyBlue said:


> Is that from can't get remarried or don't remarry by choice?
> Those statistics don't really say anything about the reason less women remarry after 40 than men.


You are correct. Reasons are ignored. There is no way to prove that most women who never remarry have turned down the opportunity to remarry. And there is no way to prove that most women who never remarry would remarry if the option were available.

But, for those looking to divorce, the statistics are pertinent. Those who push the agenda of arguing that older, divorced women are in high demand must acknowledge the reality that most women who divorce after 40 never remarry, for whatever reason. Now, if a 40+ woman has decided that she is tired of her husband and wants to pursue a life of solitude, then she will be well pleased with post-divorce life. However, if a 40+ woman believes that she can dump her zero and easily find herself a hero, she might be in for a rude awakening.



> Again a bit of a assumption, she didn't say anything about attracting a man near 50.


Correct. The OP stated "late twenties and beyond". I incorrectly remembered that as 30-50. Mea culpa.

My statement should have read, "Well, given that the original post was asking about attracting a man in his late twenties, or beyond, I don't really think that the preferences of men can be classified as meaningless. I think men's preferences can be pretty damn important for a single gal looking to attract men."

Yes. Much better.


----------



## Jellybeans

...So the takeaway from that, OP, is to hurry up and get married to your current boyfriend NOW because you will never find someone ever! The numbers aren't in women's favors and if you ever want to lock something down, do it now because women suck when they get older and nobody wants them.

Got it?


----------



## BeachGuy

As a 51 year old guy...this thread cracked me up.

Oh to be young again.


----------



## PHTlump

Jellybeans said:


> ...So the takeaway from that, OP, is to hurry up and get married to your current boyfriend NOW because you will never find someone ever! The numbers aren't in women's favors and if you ever want to lock something down, do it now because women suck when they get older and nobody wants them.
> 
> Got it?


That's not at all my message. I simply want to give the OP a realistic idea of dating life in her late twenties and beyond.

If the OP fears for her life from her current boyfriend, then she should absolutely leave him regardless of the risk of finding another man. I dare say finding a better man will probably be easy, as the bar is currently set very low for her.

However, if the OP is bored with her Nice Guy boyfriend and is considering dumping him and looking for a billionaire, vampire, pirate captain, then I think it would be extremely irresponsible to advise her to just jump right into the dating pool because everything will turn out great. She already knows friends and family who are finding it very difficult to find heroes after they dumped their zeros.

I think it is much more responsible, and better for the OP, for her to be aware of the risk she faces in reentering the dating scene. She might find a better man than her current boyfriend. She might not. Is she unhappy enough now that it is worth the risk? Only she can say. But the risk exists and it is unhelpful to insist that it doesn't.

This isn't a Disney movie where every girl is a princess that is guaranteed a happily ever after.


----------



## Jellybeans

PHTlump said:


> That's not at all my message. I simply want to give the OP a realistic idea of dating life in her late twenties and beyond.
> 
> However, if the OP is bored with her Nice Guy boyfriend and is considering dumping him and looking for a billionaire, vampire, pirate captain, then I think it would be extremely irresponsible to advise her to just jump right into the dating pool because everything will turn out great.


Eh, your posts totally come across that way. About women being doomed! DOOMED! And she did not say anything about dumping a "Nice Guy." She said she was having problems in her relationship and thinking she wanted out. But kinda sounds afraid to make the move because people are telling her the things you are as well as her cousin who says all men are bad and only want to be with young women. 

Sidenote: I wish I could date "billionaire, vampire, pirate captain" --it would make for a great book. Starting with the vampire.



PHTlump said:


> She already knows friends and family who are finding it very difficult to find heroes after they dumped their zeros.


So staying with a zero is better than anything? :scratchhead:



PHTlump said:


> This isn't a Disney movie where every girl is a princess that is guaranteed a happily ever after.


Real life isn't a Disney movie. Ain't no such thing as a fairytale.


----------



## PHTlump

Jellybeans said:


> Eh, your posts totally come across that way. About women being doomed! DOOMED!


I'm only trying to convey an accurate picture of the risk she faces by looking for a new relationship. There are three possibilities. First, she could find a man better than her current boyfriend. Second, she could only find men worse than her current boyfriend. Third, she could not find any men willing to be in a relationship with her. Each of those three possibilities could happen. We shouldn't dismiss two of them and insist that, despite what her friends and family say, she will easily upgrade her mate.



> And she did not say anything about dumping a "Nice Guy." She said she was having problems in her relationship and thinking she wanted out. But kinda sounds afraid to make the move because people are telling her the things you are as well as her cousin who says all men are bad and only want to be with young women.


Right. We don't know what her problems are. If she is facing life-threatening abuse, or a boyfriend that refuses to be faithful to her, then I can easily recommend leaving him. She can easily find a better man when the bar is set so low.

However, if she's just hit the seven year itch and is thinking that, despite having it pretty good with her current boyfriend, maybe another man out there could knock her socks off, well, that might not be realistic.



> Sidenote: I wish I could date "billionaire, vampire, pirate captain" --it would make for a great book. Starting with the vampire.


Exactly. Vampires spawned a whole series of books and movies. The billionaire from 50 Shades is hugely popular. And the pirate captain is a recurring romance novel hero. Combining all three into one mythical hero is guaranteed gold for generating tingles. I just haven't written the book yet. Don't steal my idea.



> So staying with a zero is better than anything? :scratchhead:


It might be. Studies have shown that unhappily married couples tend to be happier in the long term if they stay married than if they divorce. Sometimes, working through a rough patch is the best course of action.



> Real life isn't a Disney movie. Ain't no such thing as a fairytale.


Right. That's why the fairytale agenda encouraging women to divorce and easily upgrade their men can be so harmful. There is risk. Women should recognize that risk when deciding what to do.


----------



## Holland

A good woman will always be able to find a good man and visa versa. Forget the age rubbish.

I am 20 years older than you and really enjoyed dating as an older woman, no problem at all finding plenty of decent men out there. The issue is more about finding the right man.


----------



## treyvion

BeachGuy said:


> As a 51 year old guy...this thread cracked me up.
> 
> Oh to be young again.


Hows the reality for a 51 years old man?


----------



## bagdon

Mabi123,

I'm glad to see this thread considering your other thread about snooping. Looks to me that you are exploring the possibility of relieving yourself from your current "relationship".

According to the "snooping" thread you thankfully have not married your fiancée yet. I recommend, as others have, that you flee the relationship. 

As far as dating is concerned, I think it depends on what kind of lifestyle you lead that will put you in the company of other like minded people wanting a long term relationship...someone compatible to you. Age is a secondary factor.

However, I believe you need to get right within yourself before you connect with someone else.


----------



## COguy

MaBi, you need to be working on yourself and getting your own internal issues worked out before you go jump into another toxic relationship.

The fact that you are still in your current relationship and already thinking about dating someone else is a recipe for disaster.

If you remain in a toxic relationship, it means that you have something in your brain that is not firing correctly. Until you get that worked out, you will wind up in the same situation again and again. A person with a healthy self esteem and boundaries does not allow themselves to be abused.

Get healthy before you start getting attached to someone else.


----------



## lucy mulholland

Agreed on the spend time with yourself before dating again advice.

Agreed that there are plenty of good guys out there.

Agreed that it is still a task to find someone right for you. 

A big task, as I'm realizing.

I'm personally still trying to figure out what part age plays in it, as far as maturity, readiness for committment vs. casual sex, baggage, etc. I figure we all have some (baggage that is) and I am definitely interested in an emotional connection as well as good sex, along with the complications that come with life.

My ex was 24 and I was 27 when we got married. Now I'm 34. My first foray into dating was with a 31 year old, who I (mistakenly) though was a mature enough age to start with. Perhaps we didn't get very far for other reasons (baggage, etc). 

But I think playing the age game is tricky and I'm trying not to get caught up in it.

Be clear on what you want, why you're leaving your current relationship, and what you don't want. It's really the only way you'll find it. 


Good luck (for all of us ripe old women dating!)


----------



## lucy mulholland

Agreed on the spend time with yourself before dating again advice.

Agreed that there are plenty of good guys out there.

Agreed that it is still a task to find someone right for you. 

A big task, as I'm realizing.

I'm personally still trying to figure out what part age plays in it, as far as maturity, readiness for committment vs. casual sex, baggage, etc. I figure we all have some (baggage that is) and I am definitely interested in an emotional connection as well as good sex, along with the complications that come with life.

My ex was 24 and I was 27 when we got married. Now I'm 34. My first foray into dating was with a 31 year old, who I (mistakenly) though was a mature enough age to start with. Perhaps we didn't get very far for other reasons (baggage, etc). 

But I think playing the age game is tricky and I'm trying not to get caught up in it.

Be clear on what you want, why you're leaving your current relationship, and what you don't want. It's really the only way you'll find it. 


Good luck (for all of us ripe old women dating!)


----------



## lifeisbetterthanalternat

OP, 

I will not argue the point that some men may prefer younger women as there is merit to it. However, there are MANY exceptions and men that are not as concerned with age. They are concerned (in most instances) about how you look. To me someone who is confident, fun and to some extent fit and well dressed, groomed etc. is more important then the number on the license. 

As I get older i realize that looks/age are not as important as other factors that you have control over. Your best bet is to be the best YOU that you can be. Be confident and love life and be happy. Do the opposite and you will repel men. I have not aware how bad things are in your relationship and not sure if you are looking to " trade up " or if your BF is a total turd. If it is the latter, leave and look for someone and you will find them. 

Good luck and God Bless.


----------



## RandomDude

OMG ur still a baby!


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## whowouldhavethought

What you do is rob the cradle. Thirty four years, my then 34 year old girlfriend accepted my proposal of marriage. I was 27. I still cannot believe how lucky I was that she accepted. I am still married to her. In my eyes, she is the most beautiful and sexiest woman in the whole wide world.

WWHT


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## JustSomeGuyWho

I would not make generalizations like that. Be the person you want to be. There are plenty of options out there.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## loving1

My husband was 28 when he found himself newly single and he went younger (I was 22). He told me that all the women closer to his age that he tried dating turned out to be freshly out of ugly divorces or long term relationships that went nowhere, and seemed very bitter about their recent experiences and not really ready for a new relationship. His same-age single friends had similar complaints.

In conclusion... I think the late 20s/early 30s dating difficulties are on both sides!  As long as you're ready to date and enter a healthy relationship, I think you'll do fine.


----------



## broomgirl

PHTlump said:


> Right. We don't know what her problems are. If she is facing life-threatening abuse, or a boyfriend that refuses to be faithful to her, then I can easily recommend leaving him. She can easily find a better man when the bar is set so low.
> 
> However, if she's just hit the seven year itch and is thinking that, despite having it pretty good with her current boyfriend, maybe another man out there could knock her socks off, well, that might not be realistic.


I get where the OP is coming from. I'm in my early 30s and having the same thoughts - at my age, if I break up, will I ever find a decent guy?

My fiance is very overweight, LD, and a high-functioning alcoholic. I could find a "better man" in the sense that there are plenty of men out there who are a healthy weight, enjoy frequent sex, and only drink in moderation (or not at all). 

But on the flipside, my fiance is incredibly kind, caring, generous, and faithful. We share many of the same interests. He loves me 100% and wants to spend the rest of his life with me. In that sense, the bar is set very high, and I'm honestly not sure whether I'll be able to find another man who is as kind, loyal, and committed as my fiance. 

It's a real tough dilemma...


----------



## Feeling-Lonely

Faithful Wife said:


> But there doesn't seem to be any statistical data that supports the theory that "older men marry younger women".
> 
> All you are saying then is "older men may WANT to marry younger women"....right?
> 
> And then all the older men in the world also tell themselves that those younger women WANT to marry them, as well.
> 
> Yet there is no data.
> 
> Why do you guys keep telling yourselves this?
> 
> And please, no individual cases of "well my friend/brother/uncle was 15 years older than his wife" yada yada. The statistics do not support it.


There is lie there is big lie and then there is the statistics. 

I also tend to agree that younger women are more attracted to older more mature men (few to 10 years) In my personal experience. My husband is 9 years older, ALL my girlfriends, sisters boyfriends/ husbands are 4 to 15 years older.. I am a part of the statistics too, aren't I? 

I is a good thread idea, what is your age difference in your relationship? 

I could not imagine dating a guy my age, I have not met a mature and serious enough guy my age. Financial security is important too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Feeling-lonely....there is an agenda of men who want to make women believe that they have less value than men do on the market. One of the ways they attempt to push this agenda is by trying to convince women that when they are older no man will want them. This agenda is meant to scare women into staying in unhappy marriages because they want these women to fear that they can't do any better than their current husband on the open market. This agenda also claims that women "frequently" marry men MUCH older than they are.

Statistics do not support that this happens frequently. The average age between married spouses is 4 years. The bell curve around that age gap would be up to 8 years. Beyond that and we are not in "frequently" territory as the agenda would try to pretend is true. It simply isn't.

Yes you are in the statistics, but so are my 3 female friends who are married to or in long term relationships with men who are 8 years or more YOUNGER than they are.

The agenda of men who wish it was true that "older" women are not attractive is simply a bunch of crap dreamed up by men who are insecure.

I am NOT saying that an older man isn't attractive to MANY women, including younger women.

I am just saying that the agenda where these particular men want to make women FEAR their worth on the market is a bunch of crap.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> Feeling-lonely....there is an agenda of men who want to make women believe that they have less value than men do on the market.


Younger women also push that agenda as well. My fiancé is 10 years younger than I am and was 11 years older than his (erstwhile) EA. 

At the age of 29, she did everything to compare herself favourably to me. At the same time, she was dating other men and then mentioned to my EA about the new guy she was dating, one downer here, he's 40 years old, the same age that my fiancé was at the time. And the other guy was married too, possibly already separated at the time. 

I don't know what the stats are about younger men with older women. But what's important is what is happening to you. What do you have to offer? Are you in the right environment that likes what you have to offer, as in the right city? Does you lifestyle bring you into contact with elgible men? these are the things that you can control. so do them.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> Feeling-lonely....there is an agenda of men who want to make women believe that they have less value than men do on the market. One of the ways they attempt to push this agenda is by trying to convince women that when they are older no man will want them. This agenda is meant to scare women into staying in unhappy marriages because they want these women to fear that they can't do any better than their current husband on the open market. This agenda also claims that women "frequently" marry men MUCH older than they are.


In other words the OP's female family and friends voicing their displeasure with the dating market are actually covert agents planted by the patriarchy to spread disinformation. They could easily date billionaire, vampire, pirate captains if they wanted. They simply prefer their work scaring their friends and family.



> Statistics do not support that this happens frequently. The average age between married spouses is 4 years. The bell curve around that age gap would be up to 8 years. Beyond that and we are not in "frequently" territory as the agenda would try to pretend is true. It simply isn't.


I've seen the 4-year mean. I haven't seen any distributions around the mean. Please link to your source.



> The agenda of men who wish it was true that "older" women are not attractive is simply a bunch of crap dreamed up by men who are insecure.


Exactly. That's why all the advertisers and photographers who put women in print and billboard ads use older models, or photoshop younger models to appear older with more wrinkles. Everybody knows that men find 40 year-old women more attractive than 20 year-old women. It's just common sense.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> Exactly. That's why all the advertisers and photographers who put women in print and billboard ads use older models, or photoshop younger models to appear older with more wrinkles. Everybody knows that men find 40 year-old women more attractive than 20 year-old women. It's just common sense.


Those modeling ads are about fantasy both for men and women. Just like porn is about fantasy. Do you really want to have sex with a woman who can take on 5 guys at a time? Probably not, but you don't mind watching it.

I think we all know that life is multi dimensional so the importance of one's looks is set side by side with other important aspects of someone that you plan to spend a lot of time with.

But from what I do hear, there are SOME men who spend a lot of time with those photographs (and with a box tissues too).


----------



## PHTlump

NextTimeAround said:


> Those modeling ads are about fantasy both for men and women. Just like porn is about fantasy. Do you really want to have sex with a woman who can take on 5 guys at a time? Probably not, but you don't mind watching it.


That's true. But, if modeling and porn is about sexual fantasy, and men are equally attracted to women of all ages, then why does most of the material feature young women? Are the pornographers and advertisers too stupid to understand their market?



> I think we all know that life is multi dimensional so the importance of one's looks is set side by side with other important aspects of someone that you plan to spend a lot of time with.


Sure. I'm not trying to say that looks are the only thing men care about. But men also don't dismiss looks, either. Looks are important. And when looks are the main consideration, like in print ads, television, and film, younger women dominate the market.

As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm not trying to discourage a woman from leaving an awful boyfriend, despite what some posters think. But I think it would be a disservice for this board to push an agenda that encourages women to leave good men for frivolous reasons and give them false reassurance that most men will gladly overlook any and all possible faults of hers in order to have a chance to be her next boyfriend, or husband.

Let's just acknowledge the risk inherent in leaving one man to strike out in search of another and let women make an informed decision. I think they might be capable enough to handle it.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> That's true. But, if modeling and porn is about sexual fantasy, and men are equally attracted to women of all ages, then why does most of the material feature young women? Are the pornographers and advertisers too stupid to understand their market?


Let's face it, humans are visually seduced. Think about store chains that cater to fat women. While the models for those catalogues look a bit meatier than a supermodel, they don't come close to the majority of women that those clothes are sized for.


----------



## always_alone

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's face it, humans are visually seduced. Think about store chains that cater to fat women. While the models for those catalogues look a bit meatier than a supermodel, they don't come close to the majority of women that those clothes are sized for.


A huge part of this is, IMHO, this current society's fixation on worshipping thin. A lot of people are so imbued with this training that they believe it to be part of their biological wiring, but the fact is that fat plays a much different role and has a much different interpretation in other cultures.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm not trying to discourage a woman from leaving an awful boyfriend, despite what some posters think. But I think it would be a disservice for this board to push an agenda that encourages women to leave good men for frivolous reasons and give them false reassurance that most men will gladly overlook any and all possible faults of hers in order to have a chance to be her next boyfriend, or husband.


Your obvious concern for the well being of women is touching. I wonder if you might also share some of that wisdom with the men here on TAM? Perhaps remind them of the risks inherent in leaving their devoted wives for a life of bachelor freedom and endless willing women? 

Or do you imagine that somehow that hot young things actually will be lining up to give it away to any average schmoe that comes along? Or perhaps that it doesn't matter because those guys can just purchase whatever goods they're interested in?


----------



## NextTimeAround

PHTlump said:


> As I wrote in an earlier post, I'm not trying to discourage a woman from leaving an awful boyfriend, despite what some posters think. But I think it would be a disservice for this board to push an agenda that encourages women to leave good men for frivolous reasons and give them false reassurance that most men will gladly overlook any and all possible faults of hers in order to have a chance to be her next boyfriend, or husband.
> 
> Let's just acknowledge the risk inherent in leaving one man to strike out in search of another and let women make an informed decision. I think they might be capable enough to handle it.



I should start a thread to help men to navigate from these shark like 20 and 30 something women who flip back and forth between being just friends or having a mutually exclusive and loving relationship. 

These women will be happy to take all the advantages from of a guy for being a girlfriend while enjoying the freedom of being just friends. 

And some men, even some older men, fall for it.


----------



## PHTlump

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's face it, humans are visually seduced. Think about store chains that cater to fat women. While the models for those catalogues look a bit meatier than a supermodel, they don't come close to the majority of women that those clothes are sized for.


That's true. But it seems obvious to me that the reason the models are thinner than the average woman in the target market is that thinner women are viewed as more attractive than heavier women.


----------



## NextTimeAround

PHTlump said:


> That's true. But it seems obvious to me that the reason the models are thinner than the average woman in the target market is that thinner women are viewed as more attractive than heavier women.


I would not agree with that in a totally linear way. And There are some women who are way too thin to be attractive.

And women who manage to keep the hourglass shape even with the extra dollops of weight can be very attractive to a lot of men.

But I also believe that personality, circumstance (ie one's social circles) and maybe other aspects can up or down shift a woman's appeal. 

Even with my fiancé, I think the fact that his EA was (self-described as) 50 pounds overweight was minor to her overall behaviour and her insistence that all relationships with her were "just friends." I saw pictures of her and some of them showed a pretty face and that feisty in your face attitude that some people like.

A woman of any age should learn the right behaviour and attitude (I guess that would be another thread). I'm convinced that at last call, that's what really matters in a relationship.

How else do you explain all these average looking women who are married? Some of them happily married.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Your obvious concern for the well being of women is touching.


Thanks.



> I wonder if you might also share some of that wisdom with the men here on TAM? Perhaps remind them of the risks inherent in leaving their devoted wives for a life of bachelor freedom and endless willing women?


Way ahead of you. Earlier on the thread, I posted the statistics for both men and women remarrying after divorcing after 40. To go further, 26% of the men and 53% of the women who divorce after 40 not only don't remarry, but they become celibate after divorce.

While that picture paints a better picture for men than women, it's not exactly rosy for either sex. I certainly wouldn't want to toy around with a 1 in 4 chance of never having sex again.

But, given that women initiate the great majority of divorces, I suspect that women having a false impression of the post-divorce dating scene is a bigger problem than men having the same.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> That's true. But it seems obvious to me that the reason the models are thinner than the average woman in the target market is that thinner women are viewed as more attractive than heavier women.


Gee, do you think this also might explain why male models are never posed holding onto their fat wallets, but always as tall 20-something, square-jawed, muscle bound, 6-pack flexing heroes?


----------



## PHTlump

NextTimeAround said:


> I would not agree with that in a totally linear way. And There are some women who are way too thin to be attractive.


Of course.



> And women who manage to keep the hourglass shape even with the extra dollops of weight can be very attractive to a lot of men.


Of course.



> But I also believe that personality, circumstance (ie one's social circles) and maybe other aspects can up or down shift a woman's appeal.


Of course.



> A woman of any age should learn the right behaviour and attitude (I guess that would be another thread). I'm convinced that at last call, that's what really matters in a relationship.
> 
> How else do you explain all these average looking women who are married? Some of them happily married.


As I said earlier, looks are simply one very important factor that men consider when evaluating women. There are others.

However, if one could have a hypothetical scenario where two women are equivalent in all ways except for looks, do you really think that men would randomly pick which one appealed more to them? Of course not. They would choose the more beautiful woman.

And one proxy for that experiment is the women who are in media. A woman on a billboard has no personality, no background, no education, no political affiliations, and no religious beliefs. Often, we don't even know her name. The only thing we can evaluate about her is her looks. And most of the women on billboards are young and beautiful. That must mean something.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Gee, do you think this also might explain why male models are never posed holding onto their fat wallets, but always as tall 20-something, square-jawed, muscle bound, 6-pack flexing heroes?


Of course male models are attractive. Women aren't blind. But I've also never seen a print ad starring a male model where the model was dressed in a fast food uniform. Usually, he's wearing a tailored suit, or a pair of $500 jeans.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Thanks.
> Way ahead of you. Earlier on the thread, I posted the statistics for both men and women remarrying after divorcing after 40. To go further, 26% of the men and 53% of the women who divorce after 40 not only don't remarry, but they become celibate after divorce.
> 
> While that picture paints a better picture for men than women, it's not exactly rosy for either sex.


But as was pointed out to you right after you posted that, these stats are entirely lacking in meaningful context. In fact, without more context, they say very little about either men's or women's options after 40.

Men, for example, have much less compunction about paying for services, rather than mucking about with actual relationships, and many women actually choose celibacy as their preferred state of being.

Add to that, it is quite well known that men don't do anywhere near as well as women with living alone, and so would be more inclined to "settle" at a later age. Not to mention, men usually die much earlier, which would also skew the stats. 

I mean who do you suppose all these post-40 guys are hooking up with? If you think it's their porn-fantasy girlfriends, you are sadly mistaken.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Of course male models are attractive. Women aren't blind. But I've also never seen a print ad starring a male model where the model was dressed in a fast food uniform. Usually, he's wearing a tailored suit, or a pair of $500 jeans.


Or in his underwear.

And the same is true for women, BTW. When was the last time you saw sexy Hilda in a fast food uniform?


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> And one proxy for that experiment is the women who are in media. A woman on a billboard has no personality, no background, no education, no political affiliations, and no religious beliefs. Often, we don't even know her name. The only thing we can evaluate about her is her looks. And most of the women on billboards are young and beautiful. That must mean something.


Yeah, you've convinced me. Men don't care about any of that personality stuff. Indeed, they probably prefer a woman who isn't marred by silly and unnecessary things like brains and character. Flat, 2-dimensional, but sexually available = the perfect woman.

But why can't you see that women must also feel the same way? 
I mean, all those boys on billboards are beautiful too. And women find them so, without knowing anything at all about them. That must mean something.


----------



## treyvion

always_alone said:


> But as was pointed out to you right after you posted that, these stats are entirely lacking in meaningful context. In fact, without more context, they say very little about either men's or women's options after 40.
> 
> Men, for example, have much less compunction about paying for services, rather than mucking about with actual relationships, and many women actually choose celibacy as their preferred state of being.
> 
> Add to that, it is quite well known that men don't do anywhere near as well as women with living alone, and so would be more inclined to "settle" at a later age. Not to mention, men usually die much earlier, which would also skew the stats.





always_alone said:


> I mean who do you suppose all these post-40 guys are hooking up with? If you think it's their porn-fantasy girlfriends, you are sadly mistaken.


 Some do, not all, but some do. I don't understand why you can't get it through your head that some people prefer attractive older people.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Men, for example, have much less compunction about paying for services, rather than mucking about with actual relationships, and many women actually choose celibacy as their preferred state of being.


53% of women surveyed who divorced after 40 were celibate. You think that all, or most of them are happy about it? If most women who divorce are simply tired of all men, then why all the mental gymnastics insisting that, despite any and all evidence to the contrary, the sexual marketplace is full of men dying to have a chance at an older woman?



> Add to that, it is quite well known that men don't do anywhere near as well as women with living alone, and so would be more inclined to "settle" at a later age. Not to mention, men usually die much earlier, which would also skew the stats.


Even if you are correct that men, post 40, are more desperate to remarry, wouldn't these men be marrying post 40, divorced women? If so, that should be reflected in the statistics. Also, I don't think they count dead men as being sexually active. So I don't see how men's shorter expected life span would significantly skew the stats.



> I mean who do you suppose all these post-40 guys are hooking up with? If you think it's their porn-fantasy girlfriends, you are sadly mistaken.


Exactly my point. The men seem to be having more sex than the women. Perhaps the men are having sex with younger women? Nah, couldn't be.


----------



## always_alone

treyvion said:


> Some do, not all, but some do. I don't understand why you can't get it through your head that some people prefer attractive older people.


????? Are you talking to me? Because I've always allowed that looks aren't everything - and often count for very little. I've said right from the beginning that OP will likely have plentynof choices of good men whether she is in her late 20s or late 40s.

It's someone else who believes that every year and very pound is yet another flaw that will severely cripple a woman's ability to find a suitable mate.

Not me!


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Yeah, you've convinced me. Men don't care about any of that personality stuff.


That's what you're taking from my posts? Hokay...



> Indeed, they probably prefer a woman who isn't marred by silly and unnecessary things like brains and character. Flat, 2-dimensional, but sexually available = the perfect woman.


Don't forget man-hating feminist. We love those. 



> But why can't you see that women must also feel the same way?
> I mean, all those boys on billboards are beautiful too. And women find them so, without knowing anything at all about them. That must mean something.


Exactly. I'm not the one trying to convince everybody that the world is a Disney cartoon where happily ever after is guaranteed, until you get bored. In that case, you can just trade in Prince Charming for a better model. Guaranteed. Because you've got moxie, and that's all men care about.


----------



## NextTimeAround

PHTlump said:


> However, if one could have a hypothetical scenario where two women are equivalent in all ways except for looks, do you really think that men would randomly pick which one appealed more to them? Of course not. They would choose the more beautiful woman.
> 
> .


But we all know that there it is VERY rare that one is evaluating two or more choices where all the other variables are equal except for one, looks in this case.

Also, I have found myself in situations in which my partner was happy to sacrifice something to be with me (the problem, at least at one time with interracial dating and marrying).

Did my partner have other and or better options? In high school, my boyfriend could have dated the class sweetheart, but he chose not to. 
In grad school, my boyfriend gave the finger to his racist grandparents. I was one year older than he.

My (ex)H had some words with his father who was worried that he marrying too young. he was 27 when I was 32. He was/ still is white.

My fiance now could have chosen a woman 21 years younger than I am. I don't know how long that relationship would have lasted since she was big on having it her way by doing the friend thing with him and other men; but when I was raised the issue with him, he immediately made the effort to get her out of his life. 

I think behavior counts for a lot. My dating life came alive during the 80s when we were told that we were empowered to ask a man out and to pay for him as well. Now I accept that maybe us women have changed, but men have not. 

When I look back at photos of myself in my 20s, I realise I was really hot. I met my bf and (ex)H because they made the effort to approach me. Imagine if I had approached them first. I might have communicated to them that I was desperate and they could pursue someone else for a while.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Exactly my point. The men seem to be having more sex than the women. Perhaps the men are having sex with younger women? Nah, couldn't be.


For all your criticisms of feminists and their lack of reasoning skills, you sure do set a pretty poor model. Assuming your intent isn't just to spread your preconceived notions and hatred of women, and you actually do wish to put some thought into the issues, here are a few factors you might consider:

1. if men die sooner, there are fewer of them, relative to women, which will have an effect on the stats when talking about over-40s.
2. Of course men sleep with younger women. And they often pay dearly for this privilege because it's not like there's line-ups of women volunteering to do it for free.
3. No one is saying that older women are the sex symbols of current society or the fantasy that is being sold to men on a daily basis. They are suggesting that not all men are quite as shallow as you seem to be, and are also attracted by brains, character, and attitude. And they might actually want to be with someone they can talk and relate to.
4. Most post-40 men who actually re-marry do so with someone within about 4 years of their age range.
5. Most, if not all, of the evidence you cite that "proves" that men only want young attractive women is also true if you reverse the genders. Male sex symbols *can* get a bit older than female ones, but it's not that common, and there are limits.
6. If you really believe that sugar daddies prove that men are more desirable than women, then let me point you to the ever-growing sugar momma communities. True, it's still nowhere near as prevalent, but more and more women are fulfilling their needs with a rent-a-stud.
7. For every woman complaining that there are no good men, there is a man complaining that there are no good women. This happens at all ages. I've heard 18-year olds worry about this, 20-something year olds worrying about this, 30-something year-olds worrying about this. And so on. And let me say it again: both men and women express these same worries.

I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to make women feel terrible about themselves for not being 20, compliant, and looking like a billboard, but to me it just smells like resentment that you yourself failed to get your own compliant, billboard-ready 20 year old. Remember, though, you can always buy the services of one (if you have the cash that is).


----------



## Faithful Wife

Always said: "I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to make women feel terrible about themselves for not being 20, compliant, and looking like a billboard, but to me it just smells like resentment that you yourself failed to get your own compliant, billboard-ready 20 year old. Remember, though, you can always buy the services of one (if you have the cash that is)."

Yes, this poster tells us nothing about his own life or relationships. That makes me suspicious of his actual message, or why anyone should take his posts as "advice". What is the life experience behind this type of misogyny?


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> For all your criticisms of feminists and their lack of reasoning skills, you sure do set a pretty poor model. Assuming your intent isn't just to spread your preconceived notions and hatred of women, and you actually do wish to put some thought into the issues, here are a few factors you might consider:
> 
> *1. if men die sooner, there are fewer of them, relative to women, which will have an effect on the stats when talking about over-40s*.
> 2. Of course men sleep with younger women. And they often pay dearly for this privilege because it's not like there's line-ups of women volunteering to do it for free.
> 3. No one is saying that older women are the sex symbols of current society or the fantasy that is being sold to men on a daily basis. They are suggesting that not all men are quite as shallow as you seem to be, and are also attracted by brains, character, and attitude. And they might actually want to be with someone they can talk and relate to.
> 4. Most post-40 men who actually re-marry do so with someone within about 4 years of their age range.
> 5. Most, if not all, of the evidence you cite that "proves" that men only want young attractive women is also true if you reverse the genders. Male sex symbols *can* get a bit older than female ones, but it's not that common, and there are limits.
> 6. If you really believe that sugar daddies prove that men are more desirable than women, then let me point you to the ever-growing sugar momma communities. True, it's still nowhere near as prevalent, but more and more women are fulfilling their needs with a rent-a-stud.
> 7. For every woman complaining that there are no good men, there is a man complaining that there are no good women. This happens at all ages. I've heard 18-year olds worry about this, 20-something year olds worrying about this, 30-something year-olds worrying about this. And so on. And let me say it again: both men and women express these same worries.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to make women feel terrible about themselves for not being 20, compliant, and looking like a billboard, but to me it just smells like resentment that you yourself failed to get your own compliant, billboard-ready 20 year old. Remember, though, you can always buy the services of one (if you have the cash that is).


Minor statistical nitpick here...the original stats were male-female independant and were percentage of the independant populations, so absolute numbers are meaningless.

Carry on...


----------



## Feeling-Lonely

Wouldn't you agree that stereotypes come from somewhere. In this case the stereotype is Older men + younger women, and it does indeed come from somewhere ..

I bet that if someone made a poll in this site the results would just confirm this "stereotype". 

These are the reasons why older men prefer younger women and vice verse: 

Women are ready to start a family earlier than men, the best age for a baby is in their 20's. Not so important for men to have a baby early, in fact, men in a typical relationship model prefer to have something to show for (college, career, property) before having kids. 

Exact reason why I chose my husband and he chose me, I was 20, he was 29, He still wanted to spend some alone time with me before having kids, a woman his age would be under pressure to start a family right away. 5 years later, we are ready to have kids.

I know it sounds material, but it is what it is, I want my future kids to have a secure family , financially and otherwise, guy my age could possibly make it happen but I wasn't ready to wait around to see.


----------



## PHTlump

samyeagar said:


> Minor statistical nitpick here...the original stats were male-female independant and were percentage of the independant populations, so absolute numbers are meaningless.
> 
> Carry on...


Math is misogynistic.


----------



## samyeagar

PHTlump said:


> Math is misogynistic.



Does that make me a mathemisogynist?


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> 1. if men die sooner, there are fewer of them, relative to women, which will have an effect on the stats when talking about over-40s.


Samyeager addressed this.



> 2. Of course men sleep with younger women. And they often pay dearly for this privilege because it's not like there's line-ups of women volunteering to do it for free.


You claim that men who have sex with younger women are simply johns paying for prostitutes, and that I'm the one spreading sex hatred? Hokay.



> 3. No one is saying that older women are the sex symbols of current society or the fantasy that is being sold to men on a daily basis. They are suggesting that not all men are quite as shallow as you seem to be, and are also attracted by brains, character, and attitude. And they might actually want to be with someone they can talk and relate to.


Are you sure about that? Because my statement that younger women were generally more physically attractive than older women met with a LOT of objections. And why do you insist on ignoring my statements that men evaluate women by multiple criteria? It seems that you have a lot invested in portraying my position as falsely shallow. Curious.



> 4. Most post-40 men who actually re-marry do so with someone within about 4 years of their age range.


I've seen the 4 year difference as a mean across the entire population of married people. I haven't seen the age difference for the over 40 crowd. Can you link to a source?

It seems that, if the over 40 men are marrying the over 40 women, the percentages that remarry (47% and 31%, respectively) would be closer.



> 5. Most, if not all, of the evidence you cite that "proves" that men only want young attractive women is also true if you reverse the genders. Male sex symbols *can* get a bit older than female ones, but it's not that common, and there are limits.


Not exactly. Here's a couple of charts showing the messaging habits of ******* users. First, the men showing, by age, their stated maximum and minimum ages of potential matches, and the colors showing that men actually send a good deal of messages to women younger than their stated minimum age.









Then, the same chart for the women.









As you can see, women don't pursue young men as much as men pursue young women. And they spend more time than men pursuing matches that are older than they are.



> 6. If you really believe that sugar daddies prove that men are more desirable than women, then let me point you to the ever-growing sugar momma communities. True, it's still nowhere near as prevalent, but more and more women are fulfilling their needs with a rent-a-stud.


I haven't attributed women's preference for older men to any one particular trait. I'm sure income is one of them. Oh oh. Now that I've said income is one, I'm sure you'll insist that I claim it's the only one. Nevermind. Forget it.



> 7. For every woman complaining that there are no good men, there is a man complaining that there are no good women. This happens at all ages. I've heard 18-year olds worry about this, 20-something year olds worrying about this, 30-something year-olds worrying about this. And so on. And let me say it again: both men and women express these same worries.


Right. Women are just men with breasts. I'm with you sister. Of course, the statistics don't exactly agree with your point, but statistics are misogynistic, right?



> I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to make women feel terrible about themselves for not being 20, compliant, and looking like a billboard, but to me it just smells like resentment that you yourself failed to get your own compliant, billboard-ready 20 year old. Remember, though, you can always buy the services of one (if you have the cash that is).


I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to give women unrealistic expectations about the dating scene and insist that men would just as soon date a 40 year-old, overweight, divorced woman than a 20 year-old model. But, to me, it just smells like resentment that you yourself failed to get your share of dates when you were younger. Remember, though, you can always buy some cats (if you have the cash, that is).


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> I'm not exactly sure why you're on this mission to give women unrealistic expectations about the dating scene and insist that men would just as soon date a 40 year-old, overweight, divorced woman than a 20 year-old model.


I'm not on a mission to give women unrealistic expectations. I'm on a mission to point out the ridiculousness of your claims. You are not "warning women of risks", you are making special effort to tell women they are no longer attractive to men as they age because men want 20-year old models. 

Why not go on other threads where men themselves are saying that they *prefer* women who are closer to their own ages? Maybe you could share your "stats" with them, and show them how wrong they are? I'm sure they'll be convinced they must want younger women by a few figures about who people send messages to from a dating site (one that is notorious for its high percentage of fake accounts set up by working girls, no less).

But no. You need to come here to a thread started by a woman *in her 20s*, and make sure she's aware that her clock is ticking, and if she doesn't want to die alone she should stick with whoever she's got. And if not, she must be living some ridiculous fantasy.

Seriously?

I don't suppose you've ever heard of the fallacy of the false dichotomy? It's a basic logical fallacy that renders arguments like yours utterly invalid. If you really do believe that men "evaluate women on multiple criteria", why do you feel the need to show up in every thread with a distraught woman only to tell her she's going to bomb in the dating world?

And honestly, is it really so hard to understand that there are differences in real numbers of men and women, and that this affects the percentages of who is married? In the US there are 157 million women and 151 million men. Do your "stats" correct for that? Do they also correct for the widening gap that occurs with aging? Do they recognize that some half of women over 65 are widowed, and most of them live alone?

And no, I didn't say that all older men with younger women were johns or sugar daddies. I merely pointed out that this accounts for a sizable proportion, at least when talking about the 20+ year age differences that you seem to think so common. Note that the evidence you provided actually supports this observation.

But I don't suppose you're actually interested in facts and reason?


----------



## WayUpNorth

For the statistics record....I am currently dating a beautiful, sweet woman who happens to be 9 years younger than me. My last LTR was 14 years younger.
My XW was 4 years younger. She dumped me and ended up with a guy 12 years older than herself.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> I'm not on a mission to give women unrealistic expectations. I'm on a mission to point out the ridiculousness of your claims. You are not "warning women of risks", you are making special effort to tell women they are no longer attractive to men as they age because men want 20-year old models.


I haven't argued any absolutes. I have given statistics from two different sources. Neither of those sources say that a certain scenario is hopeless. But you react with increasing hostility to any suggestion that every woman alive doesn't have a billionaire, vampire, pirate-captain waiting in the wings who is destined to provide her with a life of effortless bliss. And you really think that's realistic?

Again, it's not my posts that caused the OP to start this thread. It was her family and friends who told her that they are struggling on the dating scene in their early thirties. Are her family and friends spreading disinformation at the behest of the patriarchy?



> Why not go on other threads where men themselves are saying that they *prefer* women who are closer to their own ages? Maybe you could share your "stats" with them, and show them how wrong they are?


Again, you don't understand statistics. Statistics only show general trends. There can always be exceptions. If 99% of people behave a certain way, that means that 1% don't.

So, if a man has a preference that is contrary to general trends (preferring overweight women, for example), I'm not going to try to convince him to abandon his preferences in order to conform to social norms. It wouldn't be my place.

However, if a man posted that his 40 year-old wife's elbows are too pointy, so he's considering dumping her and shacking up with a harem of cheerleaders, I would certainly point out that his expectations are unrealistic. I certainly wouldn't be leading the "you go girl" brigade and suggest that he should just be true to himself, damn the consequences.



> I'm sure they'll be convinced they must want younger women by a few figures about who people send messages to from a dating site (one that is notorious for its high percentage of fake accounts set up by working girls, no less).


You're suggesting that working girls set up fake accounts pretending to be men, and then send messages to girls to skew the statistics I used? That patriarchy sure is diabolical. They've even got hookers as agents now.



> But no. You need to come here to a thread started by a woman *in her 20s*, and make sure she's aware that her clock is ticking, and if she doesn't want to die alone she should stick with whoever she's got. And if not, she must be living some ridiculous fantasy.


I had no agenda. I honestly answered a question from the OP in her first post. She asked if men prefer younger women. Physically, younger women are more attractive than older women.

I regret that this knowledge causes you so much pain. I can see the lengths your rationalization hamster is going to to try to shoe horn your cognitive dissonance into real world observations and statistics. Of course, statistics can't be rationalized, so those must be dismissed out of hand. But I suggest you just give your hamster a rest.



> I don't suppose you've ever heard of the fallacy of the false dichotomy? It's a basic logical fallacy that renders arguments like yours utterly invalid.


You think that the fact that men prefer flawless skin, firm T&A, and thin, highly fertile women to wrinkles, sagging flesh, and overweight, infertile women is a logical fallacy? Hokay...



> If you really do believe that men "evaluate women on multiple criteria", why do you feel the need to show up in every thread with a distraught woman only to tell her she's going to bomb in the dating world?


I explained my rationale. I think it hurts women for them to believe that, if they dump their boyfriend, a billionaire, vampire, pirate-captain is guaranteed to find them and give them a life of effortless bliss. I think that kind of irrational expectation may result in a woman leaving a good man, or rejecting a good man because she's waiting for her Mr. Perfect.

I think that, if a woman has a clear understanding of the preferences of men, she might be able to meet some of those preferences. And that would increase her chances of success on the dating scene. And, if she understands the risks of the dating scene, she can make an informed decision on what she wants to do.

I don't know why you're so hostile to the idea of women making informed decisions like adults. Do we really want to encourage adult women to have the Disney fantasy that Prince Charming will find them, slip their glass slippers on, and whisk them away to their castles for "happily ever after?" Why can't we just treat women like adults? Unlike you, I think they can handle it.



> And honestly, is it really so hard to understand that there are differences in real numbers of men and women, and that this affects the percentages of who is married?


I know math is hard, but just give this line of reasoning up. The population split of male/female in 2010 for adults over 65 was 49.2/50.8. That's not enough to explain the percentage differences in my posts. Give your hamster something else to chase.



> Do they recognize that some half of women over 65 are widowed, and most of them live alone?


Older women living alone? Surely you jest. Surely you meant to say that most women over 65 are living with 25 year-old male model billionaires. Perhaps the percentages are skewed in this country because most of the older women move to Monaco with their boy toys.



> And no, I didn't say that all older men with younger women were johns or sugar daddies. I merely pointed out that this accounts for a sizable proportion, at least when talking about the 20+ year age differences that you seem to think so common. Note that the evidence you provided actually supports this observation.


Not all, but most? Do tell. I would LOVE to see some numbers. I know you're not good at math, but don't tell me that you're just spitballing some ideas that your hamster cooked up. You've got SOME basis in reality for what you're claiming, right?

And, no, none of the evidence I've provided has anything to do with prostitution. Try again.



> But I don't suppose you're actually interested in facts and reason?


Oh, that one deserves a gif.


----------



## lisab0105

I was told by a gentleman here on TAM that at 34 I need to resign myself to a late 40's/50ish gentleman if I want a relationship, because no one within my age range is going to want me if they can get a 25 year old.


----------



## always_alone

lisab0105 said:


> I was told by a gentleman here on TAM that at 34 I need to resign myself to a late 40's/50ish gentleman if I want a relationship, because no one within my age range is going to want me if they can get a 25 year old.


Well, the hostility of some men here against women is palpable. They seem to thrive on condescension, insults, and attacking ridiculous straw men. An old stereotype says that men are the rational ones, but I have to say, I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary here.


----------



## PHTlump

lisab0105 said:


> I was told by a gentleman here on TAM that at 34 I need to resign myself to a late 40's/50ish gentleman if I want a relationship, because no one within my age range is going to want me if they can get a 25 year old.


I wouldn't go that far. Competing on the dating scene with women 10 years younger than you are obviously puts you at a bit of a disadvantage. However, you shouldn't automatically give up hope of finding a man your age to date.

My entire point is that women should be realistic. If a 34 year-old thinks that she can enter the dating scene and have her pick of the choicest men, the way she did when she was 24, then she will be surprised and disappointed. If she understands that 24 year-olds are still out there taking choice men, she will have a better chance of getting a man she's happy with.

Good luck.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Do we really want to encourage adult women to have the Disney fantasy that Prince Charming will find them, slip their glass slippers on, and whisk them away to their castles for "happily ever after?" Why can't we just treat women like adults? Unlike you, I think they can handle it.


I do treat women like adults. I listen to what they say, offer input, and encourage them to do what they think best for themselves, given their circumstances.

I don't patronize them, twist their words around to suit my agenda, insult them, or pretend that I can predict their future because a dating site finds that men on their sites message a lot of young women.

My stats, BTW, came from the US Census Bureau. You might try looking at more reliable sources before you start spewing insults.

You've assumed that women have trouble in the dating scene because they are undesirable. I don't suppose you've considered just how hard it can be to find a good man?


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> I do treat women like adults. I listen to what they say, offer input, and encourage them to do what they think best for themselves, given their circumstances.


As long as they don't know the risks, right? We should just point women toward the cliff, wish them luck. give them a hearty, "You go girl," and shout down anyone who suggests that they might need to know about the risks of their path. That sounds fair.



> I don't patronize them, twist their words around to suit my agenda, insult them, or pretend that I can predict their future because a dating site finds that men on their sites message a lot of young women.


Of course you're patronizing them. Selling an adult woman a Disney fantasy is patronizing. Suggesting that adult women should believe that men find middle-aged, divorced soccer moms just as physically beautiful as women in their twenties is patronizing. You're suggesting that we should just treat women like Veruca Salt, from Willy Wonka. They want what they want, and they want it now. Men wouldn't dare not cooperate, would they? Of course not.



> My stats, BTW, came from the US Census Bureau. You might try looking at more reliable sources before you start spewing insults.


Good idea. According to the Census Bureau, the percent splits of men and women in the over 40 population is 46.3%/53.7%. Please explain how that population makeup results in men who are twice as likely as women to have sex after divorce, and 50% more likely to remarry.



> You've assumed that women have trouble in the dating scene because they are undesirable. I don't suppose you've considered just how hard it can be to find a good man?


Careful. Any farther down that train of thought and you'll arrive at the misogynistic point of view that women in the dating scene might risk not finding Mr. Perfect.


----------



## NextTimeAround

always_alone said:


> Well, *the hostility of some men here against women is palpable. *They seem to thrive on condescension, insults, and attacking ridiculous straw men. An old stereotype says that men are the rational ones, but I have to say, I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary here.


There are a couple of ironies here.

1. One of the usual complaints against older women is that we have "baggage." Well, if a man is generally hostile to women, I guess it's the pot calling the kettle black.

2. It seems to me that it's the younger that pose a (not good) challenge to men. that is, most 20 something women are not ready to settle down, that means that they can afford to have a more take it or leave it attitude towards relationships. Not to mention, that they would be less likely to have negotiating skills to navigate through a relationship; have the wisdom to recognise a relationship worth working for. 

And also, this crop of young women like to pursue the dreaded "just friends" avenue of relationships. Whereby, they expect all the advantages of being a girlfriend, while they only commit up to the level of "just friends" and go find other men to f*ck......

I have thought about my own situation in which my fiance (before he became my fiance) had unfinished business with someone 21 years younger than I (10 years younger than he) From all the messages that I saw between them and info sources that filled in some of the blanks, it does not appear that this woman was anywhere near interested in an LTR with my fiance. she just wanted to have fun. And the more he pulled out his credit card, the more she made herself available.

these days, if I were to see my fiance / husband getting chummy with a woman, I would be more concerned if she were 40+ than someone younger. As I see the 40+ crowd ready to settle down; accepting that the right guy just may not have a 6 pack and a full head of hair; and the older woman comes equipped with a few more relationship skills that we all lacked in our 20s.


----------



## PHTlump

NextTimeAround said:


> There are a couple of ironies here.
> 
> 1. One of the usual complaints against older women is that we have "baggage." Well, if a man is generally hostile to women, I guess it's the pot calling the kettle black.


I think it depends on one's definition of hostility. If the belief that younger women are generally more beautiful than older women is defined as hostility, then one would be hard-pressed to find men who aren't hostile to women.

If one is defining hostility as a man's own baggage, then I think men are just as susceptible to emotional baggage as women.



> these days, if I were to see my fiance / husband getting chummy with a woman, I would be more concerned if she were 40+ than someone younger. As I see the 40+ crowd ready to settle down; accepting that the right guy just may not have a 6 pack and a full head of hair; and the older woman comes equipped with a few more relationship skills that we all lacked in our 20s.


I think it would depend on the particular older woman hitting on your fiance. Generally, I agree with you that younger women are more in demand, and more choosy about their partners. However, there are some who believe that older women are just as in-demand as younger women, and can therefore afford to be just as choosy as younger women. We've seen that mindset on this thread. Such a woman likely wouldn't be a threat to your relationship. Unless your fiance is a billionaire, vampire, pirate-captain with a 6-pack.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Of course you're patronizing them. Selling an adult woman a Disney fantasy is patronizing. Suggesting that adult women should believe that men find middle-aged, divorced soccer moms just as physically beautiful as women in their twenties is patronizing.


The Disney fantasy thing comes entirely from your imagination. No one here tried to sell a Disney fantasy. No one. They said that there are good men out there.

Why would you want to argue with this?



PHTlump said:


> Good idea. According to the Census Bureau, the percent splits of men and women in the over 40 population is 46.3%/53.7%. Please explain how that population makeup results in men who are twice as likely as women to have sex after divorce, and 50% more likely to remarry.


We've been through this already. I've offered several possible considerations, and you rejected all of them out of hand because they don't fit with your predetermined assumption that all women have Disney fantasies, rationalization hamsters, and are constantly on a downward spiral of desirability.

If that's your view of women, there's no way you'll ever hear anything I have to say. 

That's okay though. These men you describe, the ones out chasing women half their age or less, aren't exactly the "choice" pickings themselves, so it hardly matters who they're after. A woman looking for a quality man would never settle for such immaturity unless she was too young to know better -- and then she'll grow up.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> The Disney fantasy thing comes entirely from your imagination. No one here tried to sell a Disney fantasy. No one. They said that there are good men out there.
> 
> Why would you want to argue with this?


You have taken issue, repeatedly, with the fact that older women have more trouble attracting men in the dating market than younger women. You have insisted that all of the statistics I have posted are lies, or are the result of a huge number of men who utilize prostitutes. You completely ignore the experience of the OP's family and friends.

You are heavily invested in selling the idea that, even (or perhaps especially) for older women, men will gladly line up for a chance to date them. Anyone who suggests that men might prefer younger women to older women is just a misogynist who hates women and wants to condemn them to a life of misery.

You're spreading your own version of the false dilemma. Either women are miserable with subpar men that they're too scared to jettison, or they ditch the zeros and quickly and effortlessly find themselves some heroes. That's the Disney fantasy. An effortless upgrade of your man isn't always available. Especially for older women.



> We've been through this already. I've offered several possible considerations, and you rejected all of them out of hand because they don't fit with your predetermined assumption that all women have Disney fantasies, rationalization hamsters, and are constantly on a downward spiral of desirability.


You've offered one possibility (more women) that doesn't solve the equation. There are slightly more women than men. The difference isn't enough to explain the different results for people who divorce after 40. The math just doesn't work.



> That's okay though. These men you describe, the ones out chasing women half their age or less, aren't exactly the "choice" pickings themselves, so it hardly matters who they're after. A woman looking for a quality man would never settle for such immaturity unless she was too young to know better -- and then she'll grow up.


Now, this is a different issue. If your definition of a subpar man is one who dates younger women, that is obviously a subjective measure that can't really be argued. And, if true, then you can certainly offer comfort for older women who find dating difficult.

However, I don't know if it's accurate. Robert Kraft is the billionaire owner of the New England Patriots NFL franchise. He was married for 48 years. After his wife died, Kraft, who was 70, started dating a 30 year-old woman. I don't know if he fits your definition of a subpar man, or not. But I very much doubt he was on ******* looking for 70 year-old women and accidentally clicked a 30 year-old.

Even if you discount the example of Kraft, the ******* data shows that a large portion of men pursue younger women. Are they all subpar? Is that the reason the dating discrepancy exists? 97% of older women are high quality, but only 15% of older men are? I don't think you can draw that conclusion.

The ******* data doesn't appear to show that the different outcomes for men and women are based on women rejecting men too often. It appears the men are concentrating their attention on younger women.


----------



## TiggyBlue

OP don't stay in a relationship out of fear of what's out there.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I have three single divorced mom girlfriends who are all pursued by older men quite frequently, and who all are like "no thanks". They enjoy dating men their own age or even a little younger.

One of them just recently got serious with a guy she is dating. She is 46. It looks like he is about to ask her for marriage, but she never plans to marry again so she'll have to explain that to him and see where it goes. If he insists on marriage, they will have to break up. Which is sad, but that's just how it goes....if it is a deal breaker for him, that will be too bad.

By the way, he is also wealthy, handsome and 2 years younger than she is.

One of the other 2 single mom friends I have is 36 and "old" guys (her description of guys who are over 40) hit on her and ask her out all the time. She isn't into any of them, because some really hot younger dudes are first in line for her dating preferences.

The 3rd single mom friend I know has been in a few relationships since her divorce and is enjoying just casual dating right now. She says she realized that she doesn't actually crave a relationship, she just craves dating, conversation and light romance. She is pursued by and dates men both older and younger than herself.

When I got divorced, I had to really be picky about who to date...because so many guys wanted a chance and most of them were all about getting married. I didn't want that at the time. I gave up my fight though when the man of my dreams - 4 years older than me - showed up and wouldn't let up his pursuit until he had me. Never looked back.

I could go on by the way....I have many similar stories.

What I do NOT have stories of is friends who are sad, lonely, divorced women who don't get dates. Nope, don't know a one like that. I know women in their 40's, 50's and 60's who are happily dating men their own age or just a bit older. Many of these women have turned down marriage proposals.


----------



## treyvion

lisab0105 said:


> I was told by a gentleman here on TAM that at 34 I need to resign myself to a late 40's/50ish gentleman if I want a relationship, because no one within my age range is going to want me if they can get a 25 year old.


30's is a great age. Still around 25 years old, women haven't settled into who they are and too many games.

Don't discount that an older man might be a better match for you.


----------



## ne9907

lisab0105 said:


> I was told by a gentleman here on TAM that at 34 I need to resign myself to a late 40's/50ish gentleman if I want a relationship, because no one within my age range is going to want me if they can get a 25 year old.


Rubbish and what a blinded man. I started reading this thread with optimism. 
OP you are only 28!!! and even if you were 65 or older, the only one you have to please is yourself!!

Age this, age that, men only want younger women blah blah blah blah.... rubbish! rubbish! 
I am 36 years old, I have been hit on by men as young as 21 year old. 
Could they have mommy issues? maybe. 
The truth is:
I am learning to love myself, I know I am hot, but I don't truly love the way I am yet. However, I KNOW any man who I pick will be one lucky motherfvcker because there is nobody in the world quite like me.


----------



## always_alone

I never said dating was easy, and I never said that there would be line-ups. Indeed, I said quite explicitly, as did others, that dating is difficult, and it doesn't matter if you are young or old. It's very tough to find a good partner!

This does not mean, as you would have it, that women are doomed to a life of decreasing appeal and increasing desperation, while men saunter around untouched by the ravages of age.

Yes, it's true that there are a lot of men that would prefer to date younger women. No doubt. 

But the 70-year old chasing the 30-year old doesn't even begin to approach a statistical norm. So why is it what you trot out when someone challenges your statistics?

******* data is barely worth considering as data. It is based on a subset of the population, with a certain mindset, so some demographics are heavily favored while others are ignored. Because it is a free site, one of the subsets most heavily favored are the spammers and scammers. Do you really think we can gain useful information about the population at large from this?

I have given many reasons why there is a difference in the re-marrying statistics, including, but not limited to the fact that women report that they're happy to have independence and freedom, and are not seeking a new relationship, and because of this, are less likely to settle. (Men are more likely to report wanting another relationship, BTW). I've pointed to the gap in numbers that only grows with age because women tend to live longer. I've pointed out that most of your "evidence" that supports your conclusions is equally true for both sexes. 

But you won't hear any of it ever because your only message is that women are all going downhill, and should be grateful for what little attention they can get. And if they dare be unhappy in a relationship, well they must be living in Disney fantasy land.

Uh, no. 

Let me approach it from a different angle: If a man were unhappy in his relationship, would you (a) assume it was for a frivolous reason, and (b) remind him that he isn't getting any younger, and should be grateful for what he has?

Thought not.


----------



## always_alone

TiggyBlue said:


> OP don't stay in a relationship out of fear of what's out there.


Bottom line!!!


----------



## Faithful Wife

I guess if OK cupid is considered "science", so is match.com.

Why more women over 50 say they donâ€™t want to get married | Happen Magazine

*Reason #1: They’ve got plenty of company* 

Perhaps the first reason women are happier to stay single is because they’re hardly the pariahs they were in the past. Today, a whopping 16 million boomers — more than 25 percent of men and women in this age group — are single. That means unattached women this age are rarely lacking in a little company, whether that’s a night out with some single pals or a hot date on a Saturday night. *Internet dating has also helped turn the world into their oyster, presenting them with tons of prospects, many of whom are much younger and very interested in wooing an older woman*. 

All in all, it’s easier than ever for women this age to get the same emotional perks that their married counterparts do, whether that be affection, intimacy, shared fun or laughter. In fact, some of these singles might argue that their love lives are even more exciting by comparison, since their relationships aren’t weighed down by the draining domestic concerns that marriage entails. *“You’d be surprised,” says Carol Ford, a fifty-something widow for ten years and online dater for two years, “how easy it is to find someone who is warm and interesting to be with. I’ve been out with a lot of charming men my age. Then after a romantic evening, I can go back to my little retreat and he goes to his, and there’s no squabbling over ‘Why didn’t you fold my laundry the way I like it?’”*


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> This does not mean, as you would have it, that women are doomed to a life of decreasing appeal and increasing desperation, while men saunter around untouched by the ravages of age.


I haven't stated that men are well off. I simply stated that they are relatively better off than women when trying to date while older. While over half of women who divorce over age 40 wind up celibate, _only_(?!?) a quarter of men do. I would rather face a man's odds than a woman's at that age. But neither sex has a rosy picture.



> But the 70-year old chasing the 30-year old doesn't even begin to approach a statistical norm. So why is it what you trot out when someone challenges your statistics?


That example wasn't to buttress statistics. It was to challenge your argument that men who date younger women aren't high quality men. I think a billionaire qualifies as high quality.



> ******* data is barely worth considering as data.


Of course not. It doesn't support your suppositions. We should immediately throw it out. For similar reasons, we should also throw out the census data. Obviously.



> It is based on a subset of the population, with a certain mindset, so some demographics are heavily favored while others are ignored. Because it is a free site, one of the subsets most heavily favored are the spammers and scammers. Do you really think we can gain useful information about the population at large from this?


Your belief is that people who are interested in dating will be reluctant to use a free site that facilitates dating? Hokay...

Which site would you prefer to use? Youtube? www.mypoortiredhamster.com?

And, again, I understand your argument that some percentage of the women's profiles were fake and intended to steer interest of men toward scammers or prostitutes. But why would these scammers create fake male profiles and focus their attention on younger women? If they were simply after money, wouldn't it make more sense to concentrate on older women? Are these scammers just tools of the patriarchy with no other purpose than making it LOOK like men prefer younger women? That patriarchy is so diabolical!!!



> I have given many reasons why there is a difference in the re-marrying statistics, including, but not limited to the fact that women report that they're happy to have independence and freedom, and are not seeking a new relationship, and because of this, are less likely to settle. (Men are more likely to report wanting another relationship, BTW).


Can you post a link?



> I've pointed to the gap in numbers that only grows with age because women tend to live longer.


I will agree that, if we were discussing the 90+ age demographic, the difference in the numbers of men and women who are alive in that cohort would skew the percentages. But we're not. We're talking about the 40+ group. And the difference in real numbers just aren't that significant.



> I've pointed out that most of your "evidence" that supports your conclusions is equally true for both sexes.


And you're still wrong.



> But you won't hear any of it ever because your only message is that women are all going downhill, and should be grateful for what little attention they can get. And if they dare be unhappy in a relationship, well they must be living in Disney fantasy land.


No. My position is that women leaving one relationship in anticipation of entering another are taking a risk. They may find it difficult to find a man who wants to have a relationship. They may not find the caliber of man they desire. But you refuse to accept that.

To you, every woman is guaranteed a Disney fairytale. Any man who suggests that life isn't guaranteed to end happily ever after is just a misogynist who uses tools of the patriarchy, like hookers and math, to confuse and dishearten womyn who deserve the billionaire, vampire, pirate-captains they've always wanted.



> Let me approach it from a different angle: If a man were unhappy in his relationship, would you (a) assume it was for a frivolous reason, and (b) remind him that he isn't getting any younger, and should be grateful for what he has?
> 
> Thought not.


Let me put it this way. If the man posted a thread and asked the question, "Do women think younger men are more physically attractive than older men?" My answer certainly wouldn't be, "Perish the thought. It's well established that the more wrinkles and less hair a man has, the more women love it. Any woman who tries to tell you that women like handsome men with good jobs is just a man-hating misandrist. And you should definitely ignore such a woman if she starts quoting math. Math is just meant to confuse us when we should be paying attention to our feewings."

I would have the courtesy to treat a man who was apprehensive about leaving a relationship like an adult. And I imagine that you wouldn't be so insistent that we treat said hypothetical man as child-like as you insist we treat women who ask similar questions.


----------



## NextTimeAround

> ******* data is barely worth considering as data.


Either that, or online dating is not always efficient.

I finally decided that certain facts about me like my advanced age and race (since black women get collectively the least amount of attention online) that I should simply stick to real life.

I am afraid those search engine parameters oversimplify the essence of an individual.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Spain's Duchess of Alba gives away fortune to marry commoner | Mail Online

It happens the other way around, too.

Trying to argue this is "common" (for men or women) is just ridiculous.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> think a billionaire qualifies as high quality.


:rofl: ahh. So a few bucks is enough to make a person high quality? Clearly we have very different values and will never agree on anything.

Funny, too, as men keep telling me that status and money don't mean anything to them -- but I guess they do! It's just that men should have it.



PHTlump said:


> Of course not. It doesn't support your suppositions. We should immediately throw it out. For similar reasons, we should also throw out the census data. Obviously.


Again, you make me laugh. It's not because it doesn't support my presupposition that I reject your data. I do so because the sample is skewed, and even if we take it at face value, the only thing it says is that horny men will send lots of messages to 18-year old girls. And so?

Oh, and I never said women are pretending to be men. That was another figment of your imagination. I said a lot of the profiles are fake, and so the behaviours therein are not necessarily representative of IRL. Again, just because horny men are sending messages to young girls who are trying to lure them in, and who could be anyone, doesn't mean a whole lot. 

A friend of mine, for example, had a very hot young woman pursuing and proclaiming her love for him -- and asking for money at the same time. Do you really think she was hot and young? Or do you think "she" was maybe using a stock photo and phishing?

Turns out it was the latter.



PHTlump said:


> To you, every woman is guaranteed a Disney fairytale. Any man who suggests that life isn't guaranteed to end happily ever after is just a misogynist who uses tools of the patriarchy, like hookers and math, to confuse and dishearten womyn who deserve the billionaire, vampire, pirate-captains they've always wanted.


Another figment of your imagination. It really is to laugh.

I don't call you a misogynist because you dare to suggest that not everyone will have a Disney fantasy. I couldn't agree more!

It's your interpretation of feminism that really makes it clear.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> :rofl: ahh. So a few bucks is enough to make a person high quality? Clearly we have very different values and will never agree on anything.


Apparently not. It seems your definition of quality is the reverse of Groucho Marx's. Only a man who is interested in you is a quality man. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.



> Funny, too, as men keep telling me that status and money don't mean anything to them -- but I guess they do! It's just that men should have it.


Yes. If you believe that women are just men with breasts, and men and women are attracted to exactly the same things in exactly the same ways, then it would probably seem surprising that men don't pay much attention to wealth, but believe that women do.

Curiously, since men and women are attracted to exactly the same things, why do you think so few women are terribly attracted to boobs? Another conspiracy by the patriarchy?



> Again, you make me laugh. It's not because it doesn't support my presupposition that I reject your data. I do so because the sample is skewed, and even if we take it at face value, the only thing it says is that horny men will send lots of messages to 18-year old girls. And so?


So? So? Do I need to go back through this thread and count the number of times that you insisted that men do NOT pursue young women with any greater vigor than older women? That's what much of this disagreement has been about.

And you're yet to show how the ******* data is skewed, other than some unsupported claims that a vast network of prostitutes is sending messages simply so that the patriarchy can make men and women appear to have different preferences. Color me unconvinced.



> Oh, and I never said women are pretending to be men. That was another figment of your imagination. I said a lot of the profiles are fake, and so the behaviours therein are not necessarily representative of IRL. Again, just because horny men are sending messages to young girls who are trying to lure them in, and who could be anyone, doesn't mean a whole lot.


You've argued that profiles are those of prostitutes. Most prostitutes are women. And you've dismissed the data showing the preferences of men. In order to dismiss the data, you must believe that these prostitutes are pretending to be men and sending messages to young women. You just haven't explained why they would do it, or given any proof whatsoever.



> A friend of mine, for example, had a very hot young woman pursuing and proclaiming her love for him -- and asking for money at the same time. Do you really think she was hot and young? Or do you think "she" was maybe using a stock photo and phishing?
> 
> Turns out it was the latter.


And therefore, we can conclude that men on ******* don't pursue younger women more than older women? Hokay...



> Another figment of your imagination. It really is to laugh.


Tell me about it. Your arguments just get more and more surreal and nonsensical. Imaginary hookers on ******* are in cahoots with the patriarchy to skew the statistics that prove you wrong on an internet forum. Diabolical!!



> I don't call you a misogynist because you dare to suggest that not everyone will have a Disney fantasy. I couldn't agree more!
> 
> It's your interpretation of feminism that really makes it clear.


So, we agree that not every woman is guaranteed a happily ever after. But you can't abide a man relating that fact to a woman who is apprehensive about leaving her boyfriend and entering the dating market? Telling a woman the truth makes me a misogynist? I think that's as good a definition as any I've heard. I think I can get along with that definition.

The next time I want to get along with the misandrists on this board, I'll simply tell them the pretty little lies that they're so heavily invested in. Disney isn't fantasy, it's real. Don't believe the nonsense about 20 year-olds being more beautiful than 40 year-olds. Actually, the opposite is true. Also, math is a tool of the patriarchy to confuse and befuddle women. I think I'm getting the hang of this feminism stuff. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## TiggyBlue

How the hell has this got on to Disney fantasies and billionaire pirate vampires?
kind of random


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Apparently not. It seems your definition of quality is the reverse of Groucho Marx's. Only a man who is interested in you is a quality man. Fair enough. Agree to disagree.


Where on earth do you get this stuff from? And the rest is even more far-fetched.

Methinks your rationalization hamster is working overtime.

I'm with Tiggy. If OP is unhappy with her relationship, she needs to evaluate that on her own terms, and not let fear of what may or may not be out there stand in her way.


----------



## always_alone

TiggyBlue said:


> How the hell has this got on to Disney fantasies and billionaire pirate vampires?
> kind of random


Apparently some people think that if a woman dares to be unhappy in a relationship, she must be living in a fantasy world where she is incapable of seeing how unattractive and undesirable to men she really is.


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> :rofl: ahh. So a few bucks is enough to make a person high quality? Clearly we have very different values and will never agree on anything.
> 
> *Funny, too, as men keep telling me that status and money don't mean anything to them -- but I guess they do! It's just that men should have it.*
> 
> 
> 
> Again, you make me laugh. It's not because it doesn't support my presupposition that I reject your data. I do so because the sample is skewed, and even if we take it at face value, the only thing it says is that horny men will send lots of messages to 18-year old girls. And so?
> 
> Oh, and I never said women are pretending to be men. That was another figment of your imagination. I said a lot of the profiles are fake, and so the behaviours therein are not necessarily representative of IRL. Again, just because horny men are sending messages to young girls who are trying to lure them in, and who could be anyone, doesn't mean a whole lot.
> 
> A friend of mine, for example, had a very hot young woman pursuing and proclaiming her love for him -- and asking for money at the same time. Do you really think she was hot and young? Or do you think "she" was maybe using a stock photo and phishing?
> 
> Turns out it was the latter.
> 
> 
> 
> Another figment of your imagination. It really is to laugh.
> 
> I don't call you a misogynist because you dare to suggest that not everyone will have a Disney fantasy. I couldn't agree more!
> 
> It's your interpretation of feminism that really makes it clear.


And for the most part that's true. A womans fame and fortune is generally not nearly as important to a man as a womans physical attractiveness.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Where on earth do you get this stuff from? And the rest is even more far-fetched.
> 
> Methinks your rationalization hamster is working overtime.


Your post about only low quality men pursuing younger women. I thought that, perhaps, a family man who was married to the mother of his children for nearly 50 years, until her death, who was successful enough at business to become one of the richest men in the world, and who is dating a woman less than half his age, would qualify as a quality man. You disagreed. And then you're confused by my statements about women waiting for billionaire, vampire, pirate-captains.



> I'm with Tiggy. If OP is unhappy with her relationship, she needs to evaluate that on her own terms, and not let fear of what may or may not be out there stand in her way.


Fair enough. I'm tired of the blather. I'm abandoning the discomforting aura of reality and coming over to your side. The warm, fuzzy embrace of feminist misandry doesn't require us to think, or recognize the world as it is. We can tell ourselves pretty little lies that men are more attracted to this woman (first result on Google images for "average 45 year-old woman"):










than this woman (first result on Google images for "average 25 year-old woman"):










Why? Because the first woman has crows' feet and moxie. And that's what turns men on. At least that's what our hamsters tell us. Sure, numbers, percentages, and common sense suggest that our hamsters are wrong. But math and common sense are hard and, thus, tools of the patriarchy to keep us down.

Also, don't listen to your family and friends who complain about how hard it is to be on the dating scene at their ages. They are probably just prostitutes hired by the patriarchy to spread disinformation. Don't trust them. It's easy. It's soooo easy.

So, to the OP, and all women who are considering dumping their men and are wondering how easy it will be to find an upgrade, I join the rest of the chicks on this thread in stating that you owe it to yourself not to worry about such unfeminine cares. I wholeheartedly endorse the only allowed response to such questions.


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> And for the most part that's true. A womans fame and fortune is generally not nearly as important to a man as a womans physical attractiveness.


So everyone tells me. I suspect, though, that it is important too, just from the opposite perspective. Look at how upset and worried a lot of men get when their women are richer, more famous, and have more status.


----------



## NextTimeAround

samyeagar said:


> And for the most part that's true. A womans fame and fortune is generally not nearly as important to a man as a womans physical attractiveness.


I think for men that there is a different measure of prestige that they're looking for. Who a woman's friends are; what her past partners were about.

I remember once my exH blubbering about his poor friend as his future wife broke the engagement, briefly. My exH says to me, "my friend has got to work really hard to win her back as she has dated important men in the past." 

But with women, I think we can create the prestige from make believe more so than men can with women since a woman's prestige is not based on real things like how much money she makes.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Fair enough. I'm tired of the blather. I'm abandoning the discomforting aura of reality and coming over to your side. The warm, fuzzy embrace of feminist misandry doesn't require us to think, or recognize the world as it is.


I love how you equate the view that men aren't stupid and shallow with feminist misandry.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> So everyone tells me. I suspect, though, that it is important too, just from the opposite perspective. Look at how upset and worried a lot of men get when their women are richer, more famous, and have more status.


Don't mind him, girl. He's just a misogynist that doesn't understand that women are just men with breasts. Our brains both work exactly the same. We are attracted to exactly the same traits by exactly the same measure.

And all that science that proves differently is just a conspiracy by the patriarchy. You can't trust science.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> I love how you equate the view that men aren't stupid and shallow with feminist misandry.


Like you equate the view that women are competent adults, rather than aspiring Disney princess who must be protected from reality, as misogyny?


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Like you equate the view that women are competent adults, rather than aspiring Disney princess who must be protected from reality, as misogyny?


The Disney Princess thing is your shtick, not mine. And far as I can tell, you think all women who want to make choices and have autonomy over their lives are acting like Disney princesses and need to be put in their place.

That's misogyny.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> The Disney Princess thing is your shtick, not mine. And far as I can tell, you think all women who want to make choices and have autonomy over their lives are acting like Disney princesses and need to be put in their place.
> 
> That's misogyny.


Wait a minute. Your entire position in this thread was that we can't tell women that the dating scene carries risk. Women aren't capable of evaluating their choices using hard facts and data. Like adults do. Expecting them to do that is misogynistic.

Instead, we must push the feminist agenda that says that all women are either equally attractive to men, or men are just attracted to random women, or men become more attracted to women as their physical beauty diminishes and their moxie increases. There is no risk in the dating pool. Happy endings are guaranteed, like a Disney movie. And all of their friends and family, and the raw figures that exist suggesting there is risk is just the product of hookers employed by the patriarchy to spread the misogynistic idea that women are capable of recognizing, and evaluating, risk.


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> If you want to marry someone who doesn't notice young, attractive women, then I suggest you marry a woman. Men are designed, biologically, to notice attractive women.
> 
> Sorry to be the one to break the news.


Noticing and ogling are different things. My husband and I notice attractive people all the time. But my husband has the self-control not to stare, or do a double-take, or even glance her way. And it's the same for me. We appreciate that there are good looking people everywhere, but we don't disrespect the other person by checking them out. Because _that_ is _not_ a biological urge. 

To the OP: there _are_ men who reserve their attention for the women they're with. It just takes a little longer to find them.


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> That's not at all my message. I simply want to give the OP a realistic idea of dating life in her late twenties and beyond.
> 
> If the OP fears for her life from her current boyfriend, then she should absolutely leave him regardless of the risk of finding another man. I dare say finding a better man will probably be easy, as the bar is currently set very low for her.
> 
> However, if the OP is bored with her Nice Guy boyfriend and is considering dumping him and looking for a billionaire, vampire, pirate captain, then I think it would be extremely irresponsible to advise her to just jump right into the dating pool because everything will turn out great. She already knows friends and family who are finding it very difficult to find heroes after they dumped their zeros.
> 
> I think it is much more responsible, and better for the OP, for her to be aware of the risk she faces in reentering the dating scene. She might find a better man than her current boyfriend. She might not. Is she unhappy enough now that it is worth the risk? Only she can say. But the risk exists and it is unhelpful to insist that it doesn't.
> 
> This isn't a Disney movie where every girl is a princess that is guaranteed a happily ever after.


I was wondering how this thread became so messed up, and this post right here is the answer. Cause no one in this thread has said anything about life being a Disney movie. Nor did the OP say anything about finding a Prince. Wanting to be happy in a realistic, real-life relationship is _not_ an extreme desire. It's a natural urge that I think we all look for, and the OP doesn't deserve to be badgered just because she's unsatisfied in her current relationship. 

And the "risk" you're talking about exists for _everyone_ looking for a potential spouse/SO. Relationships are no easier to maintain for adults in their young twenties as it is for adults in their forties and fifties. They face the same issues, the same hurdles, the same consequences. So yeah, there are risks involved if she were to break up with her current guy and try and find a man more suited to her. But it's not the big, scary, inevitable monster you're making it out to be. Even after you find someone you want to spend the rest of your life with and tie the knot, there are risks. Issues. Things both people have to mature through, as marriage is a whole different dynamic on its own.


----------



## bagdon

PHTlump said:


> Your post about only low quality men pursuing younger women. I thought that, perhaps, a family man who was married to the mother of his children for nearly 50 years, until her death, who was successful enough at business to become one of the richest men in the world, and who is dating a woman less than half his age, would qualify as a quality man. You disagreed. And then you're confused by my statements about women waiting for billionaire, vampire, pirate-captains.
> 
> 
> Fair enough. I'm tired of the blather. I'm abandoning the discomforting aura of reality and coming over to your side. The warm, fuzzy embrace of feminist misandry doesn't require us to think, or recognize the world as it is. We can tell ourselves pretty little lies that men are more attracted to this woman (first result on Google images for "average 45 year-old woman"):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> than this woman (first result on Google images for "average 25 year-old woman"):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Because the first woman has crows' feet and moxie. And that's what turns men on. At least that's what our hamsters tell us. Sure, numbers, percentages, and common sense suggest that our hamsters are wrong. But math and common sense are hard and, thus, tools of the patriarchy to keep us down.
> 
> Also, don't listen to your family and friends who complain about how hard it is to be on the dating scene at their ages. They are probably just prostitutes hired by the patriarchy to spread disinformation. Don't trust them. It's easy. It's soooo easy.
> 
> So, to the OP, and all women who are considering dumping their men and are wondering how easy it will be to find an upgrade, I join the rest of the chicks on this thread in stating that you owe it to yourself not to worry about such unfeminine cares. I wholeheartedly endorse the only allowed response to such questions.


These are the first google images to come up for each catagory? Both women are attractive but the 45 year old looks to be in an everyday kind of look while the 25 year old is all made up and in a sexually suggestive pose; I would definitely be more turned on by the 25 year old but these two photos seem to be apples and oranges.
Great debate btw! loving it. (sorry bout the apparent TJ)


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Feeling-lonely....there is an agenda of men who want to make women believe that they have less value than men do on the market. One of the ways they attempt to push this agenda is by trying to convince women that when they are older no man will want them. This agenda is meant to scare women into staying in unhappy marriages because they want these women to fear that they can't do any better than their current husband on the open market. This agenda also claims that women "frequently" marry men MUCH older than they are.
> 
> Statistics do not support that this happens frequently. The average age between married spouses is 4 years. The bell curve around that age gap would be up to 8 years. Beyond that and we are not in "frequently" territory as the agenda would try to pretend is true. It simply isn't.
> 
> Yes you are in the statistics, but so are my 3 female friends who are married to or in long term relationships with men who are 8 years or more YOUNGER than they are.
> 
> The agenda of men who wish it was true that "older" women are not attractive is simply a bunch of crap dreamed up by men who are insecure.
> 
> I am NOT saying that an older man isn't attractive to MANY women, including younger women.
> 
> I am just saying that the agenda where these particular men want to make women FEAR their worth on the market is a bunch of crap.


GREAT post FW!! I love it. 

And it's true...scare tactics to try and keep women from leaving men. But really, it's just a reflection of the man's own insecurity trying to convince himself that, if his wife left him, he'd be snatched up by a young, hot woman. I don't know if that's an attempt to prove he was worth staying with or what, but I'd be willing to bet that, unless the man had at least the appearance of money, most wouldn't be able to pull a twenty-something bombshell.


----------



## Created2Write

always_alone said:


> The Disney Princess thing is your shtick, not mine. And far as I can tell, you think all women who want to make choices and have autonomy over their lives are acting like Disney princesses and need to be put in their place.
> 
> That's misogyny.


Yup. Exactly what I was going to say.


----------



## Created2Write

PHT, women can handle a lot of things. The first thing we can handle is reality. Guess what? We don't need you to tell us how life isn't a Disney movie or a fairytale. We _know_. I grew up watching Disney movies and, even though I loved the idea of being a Princess(you know, using my imagination) I knew before I turned ten that relationships like that are fake and unrealistic. You don't fall in love within minutes of meeting someone. There's no such thing as a fairy godmother who, with one song, can alter the course of my life forever. And no man is going to try and search for through, through a countless number of women, if he doesn't even know my name. 

That you feel compelled to even tell us these things is misogynistic. _We already know that life is different than fairy tales_. 

And we're all perfectly aware of the risks involved with dating, no matter what your age is. There are men who will manipulate and use women for sex. There are women who will manipulate and use men for money. There are men and women who will kill for both of those things. There are men and women who have chosen to remain single. There are men and women who don't want kids. There are men and women who don't plan on marrying, and only want to date. There are men and women who enjoy open relationships, etc. Believe me, we know the risks. There are dozens. The fact that you think we need this pointed out to us is, also, misogynistic. 

But, you go further. You equate a woman's desire to have a happy, satisfying relationship with a man she can respect to a Disney movie?! Ultimate misogyny. A woman thinking of herself as a Princess? Needing a Prince to rescue her? Wanting to be in a mutually satisfying, respectful relationship is _so_ not akin to believing oneself is a Princess. Sure, there are women who are spoiled and intend to always be spoiled. Just like there are men who are shallow and only care about having the hottest trophy wife on their arm. But women, as a whole, do _not_ actually see themselves as Princesses. Many women don't actually see in themselves someone who deserves to be treated well, so your talk is entirely counterproductive in their case. Well, it's counterproductive in every case really, but especially in theirs. 

Now, as to the age thing...attraction is not simplistic. It varies between individuals. I've been attracted to two older men in my life. One is probably twice my age...almost old enough to be my father, and he is an attractive man. He keeps himself clean cut, he gas a great smile, a great sense of humor and he's very nice. I would never, ever, date him based on the age difference alone. 

The second was about ten to eleven years older than I. I had a major crush on him as a young adult. I was 19. He was attractive, dressed well, was polite and funny, but even if he'd asked me out, I wouldn't have said yes. And it would have crushed me. While he was mature in some ways, and highly successful at his job and made good money, he simply didn't know what he wanted in a relationship. He hinted a lot that he was interested in me, but never actually made a move. 

My husband and I struggled a lot in our first years of marriage. Financially, we had some major hardships. But even if I'd been given the chance to marry some rich older guy, I'd have chosen my husband over the money every single time. Love, for me, is more important than money. Yeah, it was hard. There was a major risk when we decided to get married even though we both had lost our jobs. But it was a risk worth taking. 

And I don't have to stop myself from cringing when my husband touches me. Or be embarrassed of the hickey on my neck.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Wait a minute. Your entire position in this thread was that we can't tell women that the dating scene carries risk. Women aren't capable of evaluating their choices using hard facts and data. Like adults do. Expecting them to do that is misogynistic.
> 
> Instead, we must push the feminist agenda that says that all women are either equally attractive to men, or men are just attracted to random women, or men become more attracted to women as their physical beauty diminishes and their moxie increases. There is no risk in the dating pool. Happy endings are guaranteed, like a Disney movie. And all of their friends and family, and the raw figures that exist suggesting there is risk is just the product of hookers employed by the patriarchy to spread the misogynistic idea that women are capable of recognizing, and evaluating, risk.


No. These are just the words you are shoving down my throat. I've no idea where you got them from, but it wasn't me.

My only point in this debate is that, despite your claims to the contrary, you are spreading ridiculous stereotypes that have zero basis in science, math, or logic. 

And then you respond with increasingly hyperbolic and patronizing comments about how hard and awful math is, and how little I understand, and how I'm defending some stupid fantasy world.

Why?

Because you honestly believe the ******* site provides rock solid data, even though it is full of phishers and horny teenagers playing games? 

Because you think one isolated stat, without context, is sufficient to establish that women just don't have anything to offer men unless they're 20 and scantily clad?

Because you refuse to acknowledge the reality that women of all ages date, have sex, and form meaningful relationships?

Because you simply can't register stats that indicate that some women prefer to be alone and free over being hooked up with some insufferable a$$?

I honestly don't really understand where you're coming from, but for someone accusing others of living in a fantasy world devoid of facts and reason, you've got a pretty nice one going on yourself.


----------



## Created2Write

always_alone said:


> No. These are just the words you are shoving down my throat. I've no idea where you got them from, but it wasn't me.
> 
> My only point in this debate is that, despite your claims to the contrary, you are spreading ridiculous stereotypes that have zero basis in science, math, or logic.
> 
> And then you respond with increasingly hyperbolic and patronizing comments about how hard and awful math is, and how little I understand, and how I'm defending some stupid fantasy world.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because you honestly believe the ******* site provides rock solid data, even though it is full of phishers and horny teenagers playing games?
> 
> Because you think one isolated stat, without context, is sufficient to establish that women just don't have anything to offer men unless they're 20 and scantily clad?
> 
> Because you refuse to acknowledge the reality that women of all ages date, have sex, and form meaningful relationships?
> 
> Because you simply can't register stats that indicate that some women prefer to be alone and free over being hooked up with some insufferable a$$?
> 
> I honestly don't really understand where you're coming from, but for someone accusing others of living in a fantasy world devoid of facts and reason, you've got a pretty nice one going on yourself.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Created2Write

Oh, and the picture of the average 45 year old female? Try googling "average 45 year old male". I just did and I guarantee you, the 45 year old woman picture your posted would get laid and hit on a thousand times before the average 45 year old male!!


----------



## always_alone

bagdon said:


> These are the first google images to come up for each catagory? Both women are attractive but the 45 year old looks to be in an everyday kind of look while the 25 year old is all made up and in a sexually suggestive pose; I would definitely be more turned on by the 25 year old but these two photos seem to be apples and oranges.
> Great debate btw! loving it. (sorry bout the apparent TJ)


I just replicated the average 25 year old woman search, and that image was not the first one. Clearly it was cherry-picked to ensure that we all understand just how hot and desirable every 25 year old is compared to any older woman.

And that of course all men will always choose the 25 year old, no matter what.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> GREAT post FW!! I love it.
> 
> And it's true...scare tactics to try and keep women from leaving men. But really, it's just a reflection of the man's own insecurity trying to convince himself that, if his wife left him, he'd be snatched up by a young, hot woman. I don't know if that's an attempt to prove he was worth staying with or what, but I'd be willing to bet that, unless the man had at least the appearance of money, most wouldn't be able to pull a twenty-something bombshell.


That's what was thinking, yes older men can/are attracted younger women but wanting and getting are 2 different things. Just like saying the average 45 yr old woman won't be getting Christian Grey the average 45 yr old man isn't going to be finding a 25 yr old model wanting to have their children. 
The OP is 28, with a guy who when he's pissed off tells her no one else will want her (as well having smearing cat food in her face and down her top then throwing her tea in her face), nothing she's ever said has hinted she wants a gorgeous billionaire who dotes on her every whim so imo the majority of this thread is irrelevant to her and her situation.


----------



## Created2Write

45-65 year old.










This guy is relatively attractive.










As compared to this 25 year old male:










You really think a 20-25 year old female is going to choose even the fairly attractive older man when standing next to the total hotty? Assuming their monetary income was the same? If you do you're fooling yourself.

Only, whatever you do, don't try googling "sexy" 25 year old male...google doesn't do a very good job filtering their pictures. Yikes!


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> PHT, women can handle a lot of things. The first thing we can handle is reality.


You sound like a misogynist. Don't worry. You can reform. I did.



> That you feel compelled to even tell us these things is misogynistic. _We already know that life is different than fairy tales_.


Nonsense. For women, life is a fairytale. Everything is easy and guaranteed. And if it's not, it's the patriarchy's fault. We shouldn't even be spending time discussing the possibility that things don't turn out perfectly for women.



> And we're all perfectly aware of the risks involved with dating, no matter what your age is. ... The fact that you think we need this pointed out to us is, also, misogynistic.


Just a question. If we all know that the Earth is round, and I devote a post to showing that the Earth is round, would you expect feminists to howl about how I am a misogynist for suggesting that the Earth was round?



> But, you go further. You equate a woman's desire to have a happy, satisfying relationship with a man she can respect to a Disney movie?! Ultimate misogyny.


Unsurprisingly, you misunderstood the point of my posts. I wasn't equating the desire to have a wonderful relationship to a Disney movie. I was equating the complete dismissal of any risk in trying to upgrade one's mate as being a Disney movie. When's the last time you saw a Disney movie where the princess was unhappy and didn't get her happily ever after? My posts, including the post you went so far as to quote, were about the risk in the dating scene. My pointing out the risk, and even going so far as to use some numbers to quantify the risk, using the evil tool of math, is what provoked the ire of the feminists and their hamsters.



> Now, as to the age thing...attraction is not simplistic. It varies between individuals.


Random attraction. Gotcha.

Hey, I'm with you sister. Women can handle dating the men they have, or effortlessly upgrading their men in the dating scene. They can handle getting their happily ever after immediately, or having to wait a short time for it. And anybody who suggests that a women who dumps her husband for having pointy elbows might not be able to effortlessly find a superior man who can satisfy her checklist is just a misogynist. Or, if it's a woman who suggests it, she's a prostitute hired by the patriarchy to spread disinformation.

Girl power.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> My only point in this debate is that, despite your claims to the contrary, you are spreading ridiculous stereotypes that have zero basis in science, math, or logic.


Well, not zero basis in science, math, or logic. But we can all accept that science, math, and logic are evil tools of the patriarchy to confuse our hamsters, so I accept your dismissal of them.



> Because you honestly believe the ******* site provides rock solid data, even though it is full of phishers and horny teenagers playing games?


Any supporting information for this claim, besides the one anecdote of a friend of yours?



> Because you simply can't register stats that indicate that some women prefer to be alone and free over being hooked up with some insufferable a$$?


Any supporting information for your claim that most women who are single would turn down a relationship, if asked?


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> I just replicated the average 25 year old woman search, and that image was not the first one. Clearly it was cherry-picked to ensure that we all understand just how hot and desirable every 25 year old is compared to any older woman.
> 
> And that of course all men will always choose the 25 year old, no matter what.


It was the first image to come up in Google, honest.

But, never fear. I'm no longer claiming that men tend to find 25 year-old women more beautiful than 45 year-old women. I'm now claiming that men are most attracted to moxie. And how many 25 year-old women do you know with moxie?

That's why we see so many articles and blog posts about how difficult the dating scene is for beautiful 25 year-old women. The best advice I can give them is to bide their time until they're 45, at which point, they will have their pick of the choicest men.


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> You really think a 20-25 year old female is going to choose even the fairly attractive older man when standing next to the total hotty? Assuming their monetary income was the same? If you do you're fooling yourself.


But just imagine how much moxie the older men have!! You're really saying you would choose looks and income over moxie? And I thought you were a feminist. :scratchhead:


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> Nonsense. For women, life is a fairytale. Everything is easy and guaranteed. And if it's not, it's the patriarchy's fault. We shouldn't even be spending time discussing the possibility that things don't turn out perfectly for women.


I really hope you're being sarcastic. For your sake. 



> Just a question. If we all know that the Earth is round, and I devote a post to showing that the Earth is round, would you expect feminists to howl about how I am a misogynist for suggesting that the Earth was round?


No, because that would merely be a discussion on something completely gender neutral. But when you assert that women are incapable of seeing life as anything but a fairytale, then yes I expect people to call you a misogynist because that's exactly what you're being.



> Unsurprisingly, you misunderstood the point of my posts. I wasn't equating the desire to have a wonderful relationship to a Disney movie. I was equating the complete dismissal of any risk in trying to upgrade one's mate as being a Disney movie.


Except that no dismissed the risks. Everyone has acknowledged that there are risks involved when dating. The only difference between what you're saying and what others are saying is that it's no where near the nightmare you describe.



> When's the last time you saw a Disney movie where the princess was unhappy and didn't get her happily ever after?


Irrelevant, since we're dealing with real life right now. Real people. "Happily ever after" doesn't exist in the traditional sense. However, men and women _can_ and _do_ have meaningful, romantic, passionate, respectful, satisfying long-term relationships with each other. It just takes a lot more work than in fairy tales, and sometimes the person you think you're going to be with forever doesn't turn out to be right for you. Or you for them. _That_ is the risk. But it doesn't mean the search for the right person is futile. 



> My posts, including the post you went so far as to quote, were about the risk in the dating scene. My pointing out the risk, and even going so far as to use some numbers to quantify the risk, using the evil tool of math, is what provoked the ire of the feminists and their hamsters.


Nope. You're close, but you fall short. No one has an issue with the fact that there are risks with dating. Like I said before, _everyone_, including the hot little bombshells, faces risks when dating. The 20-somethings who marry older men for money risk never having a satisfying sex life with their husband, and pretending to orgasm to stroke his already massive ego. And people who are totally in love, and have been together for years, risk divorce just by getting married. 

Risk is everywhere. There's always the possibility that things can go wrong. The question is, which is worth the effort? Staying in a relationship that you know you won't be happy in? Or taking the risk and attempting to find happiness? 



> Random attraction. Gotcha.


Quote where I said "random"? I'll help you out: I didn't. I said it isn't simple. 



> Hey, I'm with you sister. Women can handle dating the men they have, or effortlessly upgrading their men in the dating scene.


Effortlessly? Who said it was effortless? Whether you're coming out of a long-term relationship, or a short-term one, or even if you're never dated before, dating isn't effortless for anyone who is genuinely looking for a lifelong companion. 



> They can handle getting their happily ever after immediately, or having to wait a short time for it.


Immediately? Only waiting a short time? Are you having a conversation with people in an alternate dimension or something? Because no one here has said that women will get a happily ever after at all, let alone getting one immediately. 

What _has_ been said is that women of all ages can and do find happiness with men who treat them well, men they love and are sexually attracted to, and those are usually men within their own age bracket. Not that you'll get it. 



> And anybody who suggests that a women who dumps her husband for having pointy elbows might not be able to effortlessly find a superior man who can satisfy her checklist is just a misogynist.


Yup...you're conversing with people from another place. Cause no one here has said this at all. But way to play the victim card. Cause nothing is more attractive than that.



> Or, if it's a woman who suggests it, she's a prostitute hired by the patriarchy to spread disinformation.


Nope. Wrong again.



> Girl power.


I feel sorry for you. I really do. You must be lonely.


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> But just imagine how much moxie the older men have!! You're really saying you would choose looks and income over moxie? And I thought you were a feminist. :scratchhead:


25 year old men can have moxie too, just fyi. And no, I wouldn't choose "income" over anything. Income isn't now, and never has, been a concern for me. What I care about is whether or not the man I'm with treats me with respect and dignity, cares about me as a person, is responsible and mature, has confidence in himself and knows what he wants from life, and is someone I will readily _want_ to have sex with. 

I will _never_ want sex with a 45 year old man, no matter how rich he is. Therefor, I will choose the poorer, hotter, 25 year old.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

MaBi123 said:


> Single/Separated/Divorced Ladies over 25:
> 
> What is your experience "getting back out there?" I ask because my relationship isn't going well, and I'm wondering what it would be like to date again (I AM NOT CHEATING OR DATING NOW BTW). I'm going to be 28 soon, and I haven't dated since I was barely 23.
> 
> My cousin (who is now 33) started dating her ex husband when she was 22. They divorced when she was 31. I never thought dating in your late 20s or early 30s would be that much different than your early 20s, but she says it's impossible to find a good guy in her age range (30-40). She says they are all creeps/jerks just looking for a ONS or they have major commitment issues. Her theory is all the good guys are scooped up by the time they are 30. Apparently she has some single and divorced friends around the same age as her who have had the same observations.
> 
> Looking back, I remember hearing men say stuff like "Women start to 'rot' when they are in their late 20s" and "Women in their early 20s are the hottest." But I thought those were just the jerks and I didn't pay too much attention.
> 
> Now I'm reading all these studies saying that men in their 30s and older prefer and pursue women under 25.
> 
> So is it hard to find a good guy in your late 20s and beyond? Or are my cousin and her friends doing something wrong?


LOL I am 31 and I seriously hope my husband isn't thinking I'm starting to rot! I feel the most beautiful that I've felt in my whole life.

Sometimes ladies have unreasonable expectations and that's why they insist they can never find a good man.I'm not saying you should settle but you should definitely make sure your expectations are based in reality.Don't expect a fairytale but don't accept a total frog either.

I've had no shortage of sh*tty men in my life but then I've also had no shortage of really good guys around too. DH is a really great guy and I didn't start dating him til I was around 28. 

Just remember not to put TOO much stock into what the ladies around you are saying.It's much easier to blame the other person for the relationship fails than it is to tell a group of friends "I was also a crappy partner." So many people tend to focus on what was wrong with the relationship instead of discussing what was right about it. It ends up giving a skewed view of the whole thing.

There is someone for everyone and more often than not there are multiple someones for every one (just don't date them all at once!). If you're down in the gutter you will find nothing but rats so be careful where you look for potential mates.

Never expect more than you're willing to give and realize that not while the man may always give you 100% of what you want,he may end up giving you 100% of what you need. Learn the difference between what you want vs what you need to be nourished emotionally and physically.


----------



## Lyris

I don't know, maybe you need to move or something. Where I live it's normal for people to get together seriously at around 30. I got married at 30 and I can only think of a couple of people I know who married/found LTR before they were 25. 

It probably is harder for men and women to find the right person as they get older - I'm thinking more of late 30s - 40s here - because there are less people available. That being said, there seems to be a kind of second wind thing, where people get together after their first LTRs fails. I don't have a huge circle of friends, but I can think of several examples where that has happened. They deal with more baggage of course, including kids etc. 

I'd rather be alone than in a bad relationship, so I'd never stay out of fear of being alone anyway. When my husband and I went through a really bad patch and I considered my future apart from him my feeling was I wouldn't ever marry again, and that was okay.


----------



## samyeagar

Lyris said:


> I don't know, maybe you need to move or something. Where I live it's normal for people to get together seriously at around 30. I got married at 30 and I can only think of a couple of people I know who married/found LTR before they were 25.
> 
> *It probably is harder for men and women to find the right person as they get older* - I'm thinking more of late 30s - 40s here - because there are less people available. That being said, there seems to be a kind of second wind thing, where people get together after their first LTRs fails. I don't have a huge circle of friends, but I can think of several examples where that has happened. They deal with more baggage of course, including kids etc.
> 
> I'd rather be alone than in a bad relationship, so I'd never stay out of fear of being alone anyway. When my husband and I went through a really bad patch and I considered my future apart from him my feeling was I wouldn't ever marry again, and that was okay.


As a man, I found it easier actually. I knew what I wanted and went out and found it. Didn't have any interest in playing the games, so I didn't. Didn't waste time playing what if.

That being said, while I do have the baggage of a bat sh1t crazy ex wife, I am also decent looking and in good shape, have no addictions, no criminal history, gainfully employed...like long moonlit walks on the beach, rescue puppies from animal shelters and all that crap too


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Any supporting information for this claim, besides the one anecdote of a friend of yours?


https://www.privacyrights.org/perils-and-pitfalls-online-dating-how-protect-yourself

http://www.scamwatch.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/datingromancescams

Beware the online dating scams | Moneywise

Online Dating Scams: What is Catfishing? - BBB News Center

Free sites like ******* have more of this than paid sites, BTW



PHTlump said:


> Any supporting information for your claim that most women who are single would turn down a relationship, if asked?


I think for this, the AARP survey that you misquoted earlier will be the best evidence: assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/singles.pdf

55% of mid-life women report that "difficulty finding dates" is not an issue for them because they are not looking (compared to 37% of men)



> ...women in their 60s (*74%*) are the most likely to say they like their single life the way it is





> With older women outnumbering men, it is surprising that *women are not any more likely than men to say that it is very or somewhat difficult to get a date.*


Oh, and while you were right that about half of single men 40-65 report no sex in the last 6mths, the stats on sexual activity for single women the same age are nowhere near as dire as you've claimed: about 40% report sexual activity in the last 6 months.

And another source:
Love and Marriage | Pew Social & Demographic Trends



> Among divorced adults, only 29% say they would like to marry again, with *women more likely than men to say they do not want another trip down the aisle*.


And another:
Divorced, Middle-Aged and Happy: Women, Especially, Adjust to the 90's - New York Times

Let me know when you're done. I'm sure I can scare up more.


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> I really hope you're being sarcastic. For your sake.


Not at all. I'm a feminist. I demand optimal outcomes for women and completely dismiss the possibility of a poor outcome.



> No, because that would merely be a discussion on something completely gender neutral. But when you assert that women are incapable of seeing life as anything but a fairytale, then yes I expect people to call you a misogynist because that's exactly what you're being.


My posts were about risk. I was stating that the dating scene carried risk. And that's what caused the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments. Not to worry, though. Because I'm a feminist now, and I eschew the notion that woman risk anything in the dating market. And I will join in the wailing if any misogynists try to suggest otherwise.



> Except that no dismissed the risks. Everyone has acknowledged that there are risks involved when dating. The only difference between what you're saying and what others are saying is that it's no where near the nightmare you describe.


I didn't describe any nightmares. I used actual numbers to describe reality. That's where the risk came into play. That some people interpreted the actual numbers I posted as a nightmare scenario is not my fault.



> Irrelevant, since we're dealing with real life right now. Real people. "Happily ever after" doesn't exist in the traditional sense. However, men and women _can_ and _do_ have meaningful, romantic, passionate, respectful, satisfying long-term relationships with each other. It just takes a lot more work than in fairy tales, and sometimes the person you think you're going to be with forever doesn't turn out to be right for you. Or you for them. _That_ is the risk. But it doesn't mean the search for the right person is futile.


I never suggested that the search was futile. In fact, I explicitly gave statistics of success stories. If two thirds of divorced women over 40 never remarry, that means one third do. How you look at that statistic just depends on whether you think the glass is one third full, or two thirds empty.



> Like I said before, _everyone_, including the hot little bombshells, faces risks when dating.


Yes. And, as feminists, we can believe our hamsters when they suggest that young bombshells and older divorcees face exactly the same risk. In fact, the young bombshells may be at a disadvantage due to a lack of moxie.



> Risk is everywhere. There's always the possibility that things can go wrong. The question is, which is worth the effort? Staying in a relationship that you know you won't be happy in? Or taking the risk and attempting to find happiness?


The old, misogynistic me would have said that each woman should evaluate the risk for herself and make a decision based on her own level of risk aversion. The new, feminist me says that the risk of easily upgrading one's mate is minimal, or even nonexistent, and women shouldn't be expected to worry their pretty little heads over evaluating their choices. So, all women out there should dump their zeros and get themselves some heroes.



> Immediately? Only waiting a short time? Are you having a conversation with people in an alternate dimension or something? Because no one here has said that women will get a happily ever after at all, let alone getting one immediately.


Look, you're not going to bait me into an argument. I already suggested that women faced the risk of finding men inferior to the ones they dumped, or not finding men at all, and I was branded an evil misogynist. I'm not going down that road again. Happily ever after is just waiting out there for all of you, sisters!



> I feel sorry for you. I really do. You must be lonely.


Your concern is appreciated. But my wife and kids don't give me much time for loneliness.


----------



## samyeagar

samyeagar said:


> As a man, I found it easier actually. I knew what I wanted and went out and found it. Didn't have any interest in playing the games, so I didn't. Didn't waste time playing what if.
> 
> That being said, while I do have the baggage of a bat sh1t crazy ex wife, I am also decent looking and in good shape, have no addictions, no criminal history, gainfully employed...like long moonlit walks on the beach, rescue puppies from animal shelters and all that crap too


I can also cook, clean, and dance. I don't need a woman for anything but companionship.


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> Not at all. I'm a feminist. I demand optimal outcomes for women and completely dismiss the possibility of a poor outcome.


There's the possibility of a poor outcome _for everyone_ in this world, regardless of what they're attempting to pursue. No one has argued this.



> My posts were about risk. I was stating that the dating scene carried risk.


Yeah, we know. We've all dated before. We know how it works, thanks.



> And that's what caused the gnashing of teeth and rending of garments. Not to worry, though. Because I'm a feminist now, and I eschew the notion that woman risk anything in the dating market. And I will join in the wailing if any misogynists try to suggest otherwise.


You're refuting something that hasn't been said. Yes, women face risks when they date. So do men. We all face risks when we date, whether we've been married once, twice, ten times, or not at all. A person who chooses to interact with humanity on any level faces risks. 

Your point?



> I didn't describe any nightmares. I used actual numbers to describe reality. That's where the risk came into play. That some people interpreted the actual numbers I posted as a nightmare scenario is not my fault.


I don't have any issue with the idea that there are risks to dating. I've dated six guys in my life, and there were risks with each and every one of them. I also faced risk when I decided to get married at 20 years old, even though we both were out of work. Some would say there were two dumb decisions wrapped up in a whirlwind romance with a man I'd only been dating nine months. 

So yes, I get there are risks. I've said there are dozens of times now, even though you keep ignoring them...the highlight of a terrible conversationalist. But regardless, my issue is in the way you portray women. We understand there are risks, PHT. We accept that there are risks, and we choose to search for successful relationships anyway. If you think that makes us dimwitted Princess, then that's your issue.



> I never suggested that the search was futile. In fact, I explicitly gave statistics of success stories. If two thirds of divorced women over 40 never remarry, that means one third do. How you look at that statistic just depends on whether you think the glass is one third full, or two thirds empty.


No, you made your point quite clear. 1/3 of women over a certain age are lucky enough to find a man to take them, but it won't be because he's attracted to her...cause if he could get a 20-something bombshell instead, he'd do it. So the only reason those men are even with that 1/3 of women over 40 is because they _can't_ get those 20-somethings, so they settle for the older women instead. But if the chance comes for them to get that 20-something, he'll be gone, so she better not count on staying with him for long. The other 2/3 of women over 40 are single because the rest of the male population in their age bracket are being wildly pursued by 20-something bombshells anxious for an old wrinkly man's "moxie".

Did I miss anything?



> Yes. And, as feminists, we can believe our hamsters when they suggest that young bombshells and older divorcees face exactly the same risk.


In general, I think they do. Both face the risk of rejection. Both face the risk of being manipulated and/or used. Both face the risk of liking a guy more than they like her. Both face the risk of not liking a guy as much as he likes her. Both face the risk of spending years looking for a significant other, if that's even what they want. Both face the risk of the single lifestyle and the choices they make therein. On a more specific level, the risks they face will depend on the choices they make: a woman over 40 who chooses to sleep around will face different risks than the bombshell who chooses to pick her sexual partners carefully. 



> In fact, the young bombshells may be at a disadvantage due to a lack of moxie.


Considering that I believe men capable of loving a woman for more than her looks, I think many bombshells _are_ at a disadvantage.



> The old, misogynistic me would have said that each woman should evaluate the risk for herself and make a decision based on her own level of risk aversion.


Everyone deserves to have a happy, fulfilling life. Everyone deserves to feel loved and wanted and desired. I think everyone should look for those things in life whether professionally, familial, with friends, and romantically. And yes, we _all_ should evaluate the risks of _every_ path we're thinking of taking. 

Let me ask, do you think men face risks in life?



> The new, feminist me says that the risk of easily upgrading one's mate is minimal, or even nonexistent, and women shouldn't be expected to worry their pretty little heads over evaluating their choices. So, all women out there should dump their zeros and get themselves some heroes.


You must be arguing with yourself, then.



> Look, you're not going to bait me into an argument. I already suggested that women faced the risk of finding men inferior to the ones they dumped, or not finding men at all, and I was branded an evil misogynist. I'm not going down that road again. Happily ever after is just waiting out there for all of you, sisters!


We _all_ face the risk of not finding love. 40-something women aren't any different than the rest of us, other than the fact that they have more life experience and are more than likely vastly more wise. But we all face the risk of not finding love, whether we've been married before or not. But, that's no reason to stay with someone who makes us miserable. If a man out there takes issue with that, maybe he should examine how he's treating his wife instead of blaming and shaming women?

Now, to clarify, I'm not saying that a momentary feeling of unhappiness is a reason to up and leave a genuinely good guy. Every marriage has its ups and downs, and I don't recommend fickleness. But there is a difference between regular issues in a marriage, and a marriage where one spouse acts in an unloving way on a consistent basis, and shows no regard for the other. If they won't agree to marriage counseling, I recommend the other make plans to leave and find someone who treats them with respect. And, for the record, that's gender neutral. I would feel the same way if it were a man.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> https://www.privacyrights.org/perils-and-pitfalls-online-dating-how-protect-yourself


This article mentioned false profiles in passing, with a link to an Economist article. I looked at the linked article, and it stated that Jetplace had run 1,300 false profiles on it's dating site. I went to the dating site and it reports having 2,655,663 member listings. So, 0.05% of that company's profiles would have been faked. And you're confident that the tiny fraction of fake profiles can skew sitewide statistics. Hokay...

BTW, none of the other links had data on what percentage of members were actually false profiles set up by hookers hired by the patriarchy. But it has to be some huge number to render the data meaningless, right?



> Free sites like ******* have more of this than paid sites, BTW


I think the Jetplace site was free. So maybe the 0.05% is an appropriate estimate for *******. Even if ******* has more than Jetplace, it would have to have many, many times the number to render the data in its blog meaningless.



> I think for this, the AARP survey that you misquoted earlier will be the best evidence: assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/general/singles.pdf


I didn't misquote it. I was using a survey on divorced people. You found a different survey.



> 55% of mid-life women report that "difficulty finding dates" is not an issue for them because they are not looking (compared to 37% of men)


The study also said, "Perhaps the reason for this inconsistency is that many women may have given up altogether." If that's true, I don't think it's a positive spin to say that women have had such a tough time finding dates that they have given up, and that's why they're not getting dates.



> Oh, and while you were right that about half of single men 40-65 report no sex in the last 6mths, the stats on sexual activity for single women the same age are nowhere near as dire as you've claimed: about 40% report sexual activity in the last 6 months.


It's not all that surprising that different surveys, from different years, focusing on different populations, have different results.

All in all, a good stab at providing some data. Kudos.


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> There's the possibility of a poor outcome _for everyone_ in this world, regardless of what they're attempting to pursue. No one has argued this.


You must be careful, because I was attacked for arguing exactly that point.



> But regardless, my issue is in the way you portray women. We understand there are risks, PHT. We accept that there are risks, and we choose to search for successful relationships anyway. If you think that makes us dimwitted Princess, then that's your issue.


I never argued that acknowledging risk and entering the dating scene with one's eyes open makes one a dimwitted princess. I was arguing that refusing to acknowledge risk and shouting down anyone who detailed risk made one a dimwitted princess.

And I was repeatedly called a misogynist for that point of view. Seriously.



> No, you made your point quite clear. 1/3 of women over a certain age are lucky enough to find a man to take them, but it won't be because he's attracted to her...cause if he could get a 20-something bombshell instead, he'd do it. So the only reason those men are even with that 1/3 of women over 40 is because they _can't_ get those 20-somethings, so they settle for the older women instead. But if the chance comes for them to get that 20-something, he'll be gone, so she better not count on staying with him for long. The other 2/3 of women over 40 are single because the rest of the male population in their age bracket are being wildly pursued by 20-something bombshells anxious for an old wrinkly man's "moxie".


You're confusing correlation with causation. It's a common mistake for those unfamiliar with math.

I never argued that one particular reason, or a particular set of reasons is why older women have less success on the dating scene than younger women. I did acknowledge that younger women are more physically attractive than older women. And I did acknowledge that men's dating profiles skew heavily in favor of pursuing younger women, while women's profiles skew less heavily in favor of pursuing older men.

That doesn't mean that a man who marries an older women has one foot out the door and is still searching for a younger woman. Since women initiate most divorces, maybe the opposite is true.



> Let me ask, do you think men face risks in life?


Men? With the patriarchy's armies of online hookers backing them up? Of course not. Screw those guys.



> We _all_ face the risk of not finding love.


Careful spewing that kind of misogynistic rhetoric. It won't be tolerated on this thread. :nono:


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> This article mentioned false profiles in passing, with a link to an Economist article. I looked at the linked article, and it stated that Jetplace had run 1,300 false profiles on it's dating site. I went to the dating site and it reports having 2,655,663 member listings. So, 0.05% of that company's profiles would have been faked. And you're confident that the tiny fraction of fake profiles can skew sitewide statistics. Hokay...
> 
> 
> BTW, none of the other links had data on what percentage of members were actually false profiles set up by hookers hired by the patriarchy. But it has to be some huge number to render the data meaningless, right?



You're kidding, right? Did you bother to read any of it? You didn't catch the over 200,000 in Britain alone that have been scammed?

There are stats from 3 different countries and a total of hundreds of thousands who have been scammed, and these are just the ones who have noticed and admitted it.




PHTlump said:


> The study also said, "Perhaps the reason for this inconsistency is that many women may have given up altogether." If that's true, I don't think it's a positive spin to say that women have had such a tough time finding dates that they have given up, and that's why they're not getting dates.


Oooh, way to cherry-pick the "perhaps". Again if you actually read some of it, you'll see that there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting that many mid-life women are happy being single and many that are dating and having fulfilling sex lives.

Kudos to you, though, for your efforts to skew the data to support your stereotypes.


----------



## samyeagar

All this does make me wonder though...the prevailing wisdom is that all the good men are taken. Where does that come from, and why is it a commonly repeated mantra...over and over?

When I started dating again after my now ex wife and I separated, I found no shortage of good women...


----------



## ocotillo

Created2Write said:


> I will _never_ want sex with a 45 year old man, no matter how rich he is. Therefor, I will choose the poorer, hotter, 25 year old.


Never?

When you're 45, the time interval that elapsed will seem shorter than summer.... 

(This is meant as light humor...)


----------



## Created2Write

Well, I will with my husband when he and I are that age. But, yeah.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> You're kidding, right? Did you bother to read any of it? You didn't catch the over 200,000 in Britain alone that have been scammed?


No I'm not kidding. Nowhere was a large portion of profiles proven to be fake.

And the number in Britain were the numbers of people who had been contacted by scammers. I've received email from a Nigerian prince trying to scam me. Does that prove that most email accounts are just scammers?



> Oooh, way to cherry-pick the "perhaps".


Don't blame me. Blame the authors of the study. Oooh, perhaps AARP is just another agent of the patriarchy!!



> Again if you actually read some of it, you'll see that there is quite a bit of evidence suggesting that many mid-life women are happy being single and many that are dating and having fulfilling sex lives.


I have never disputed that. I was only suggesting that some women are unhappy being single and celibate and that dumping one man in search of a better one carries the risk of ending up as one of those women. But that was misogynistic of me. Obviously, that risk is false. The only women who are single and celibate are ones who have turned down scores of proposals from men and voluntarily turned to cats for affection, instead. Girl power!


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> You must be careful, because I was attacked for arguing exactly that point.


No, that's not what you were attacked. 



> I never argued that acknowledging risk and entering the dating scene with one's eyes open makes one a dimwitted princess. I was arguing that refusing to acknowledge risk and shouting down anyone who detailed risk made one a dimwitted princess.
> 
> And I was repeatedly called a misogynist for that point of view. Seriously.


Refusing to acknowledge risk is one thing. Acknowledging the risks, and still believing that 45 year old single women will still be highly successful at dating, is something else entirely. Everyone in this thread agreed that there are risks to dating. What we disagreed with was your insistence that women shouldn't leave the man they're currently not happy with(in this case, the OP, who is with a manipulative, abusive man) because of those risks. 



> You're confusing correlation with causation. It's a common mistake for those unfamiliar with math.
> 
> I never argued that one particular reason, or a particular set of reasons is why older women have less success on the dating scene than younger women. I did acknowledge that younger women are more physically attractive than older women. And I did acknowledge that men's dating profiles skew heavily in favor of pursuing younger women, while women's profiles skew less heavily in favor of pursuing older men
> 
> That doesn't mean that a man who marries an older women has one foot out the door and is still searching for a younger woman. Since women initiate most divorces, maybe the opposite is true.


But a man who marries an older woman wouldn't do so because he was genuinely attracted to her?



> Men? With the patriarchy's armies of online hookers backing them up? Of course not. Screw those guys.


Telling that you don't answer the question. 



> Careful spewing that kind of misogynistic rhetoric. It won't be tolerated on this thread. :nono:


I'm not the one who thinks women are the only ones who face risks.

And good job dodging nearly all of my points by not responding to them.


----------



## Created2Write

You know, your insistence on using the phrase "girl power" in such a sarcastic way only emphasizes how deeply you despise women.


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> What we disagreed with was your insistence that women shouldn't leave the man they're currently not happy with(in this case, the OP, who is with a manipulative, abusive man) because of those risks.


Why would you disagree with something I never wrote? Curious.



> But a man who marries an older woman wouldn't do so because he was genuinely attracted to her?


I assume he would be attracted to her. Again, I have never argued that no men are attracted to older women. I have simply acknowledged the fact that more men find younger women attractive than do older women.

For example, in this thread, you have stated that you would never have sex with a 45 year-old man. You posted a 25 year-old man as an example of a man most women would rather have sex with. And I have no objections to your conclusions. So, why do you insist that men's preferences for women are completely different?



> Telling that you don't answer the question.


*sigh* Because the question is irrelevant to the issue we've been discussing. But just to get your panties untwisted, I'll answer. Yes. Men face risks in life. That's not misandrist of me to admit, is it?



> I'm not the one who thinks women are the only ones who face risks.


I never wrote that. In fact, I explicitly posted data illustrating some of the risks men face.


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> You know, your insistence on using the phrase "girl power" in such a sarcastic way only emphasizes how deeply you despise women.


I don't despise women. I just despise mindless feminism.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Created2Write said:


> Oh, and the picture of the average 45 year old female? Try googling "average 45 year old male". I just did and I guarantee you, the 45 year old woman picture your posted would get laid and hit on a thousand times before the average 45 year old male!!


Ouch.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Created2Write said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and the picture of the average 45 year old female? Try googling "average 45 year old male". I just did and I guarantee you, the 45 year old woman picture your posted would get laid and hit on a thousand times before the average 45 year old male!!
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
Click to expand...

As I sit here ... celibate in my sexless marriage contemplating divorce ... I appreciate you guys making it quite clear how dire my chances of ever getting laid again are 

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Just...what are you talking about? Only older WOMEN have trouble getting laid. (sarcasm)


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Faithful Wife said:


> Just...what are you talking about? Only older WOMEN have trouble getting laid. (sarcasm)


Lol. Right. I personally know several recently divorced women my age or older getting laid like tile by guys of all ages.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> Why would you disagree with something I never wrote? Curious.


Really? Cause here you're insinuating that women leave otherwise perfectly good men, just so they can have some fantasy perfect guy. 



> However, if the OP is bored with her Nice Guy boyfriend and is considering dumping him and looking for a billionaire, vampire, pirate captain, then I think it would be extremely
> irresponsible to advise her to just jump right into the dating pool because everything will turn out great.


And here you do your best to scare a woman into staying with an abusive man.



> I think it is much more responsible, and better for the OP, for her to be aware of the risk she faces in reentering the dating scene. She might find a better man than her current boyfriend. She might not. Is she unhappy enough now that it is worth the risk?


And here's more scare tactics: 



> I already suggested that women faced the risk of finding men inferior to the ones they dumped, or not finding men at all...


You consistently make light of the issues women face in relationships. Not just in this thread, either. It's very clear what you think of women.



> I assume he would be attracted to her. Again, I have never argued that no men are attracted to older women. I have simply acknowledged the fact that more men find younger women attractive than do older women.


I think women who are older can be just as attractive as a young woman, if not more so. 



> For example, in this thread, you have stated that you would never have sex with a 45 year-old man. You posted a 25 year-old man as an example of a man most women would rather have sex with. And I have no objections to your conclusions. So, why do you insist that men's preferences for women are completely different?


That picture wasn't posted as something "most women" would rather have sex with, it was posted as an example of what other 25 year old women would want to have sex with. I don't think that "most women" would want to have sex with that 25 year old guy. That would be sick. I think most normal people would rather have sex with someone attractive in their age bracket. 



> *sigh* Because the question is irrelevant to the issue we've been discussing. But just to get your panties untwisted,


Cause _that's_ not misogynistic. Or insulting. 



> I'll answer. Yes. Men face risks in life. That's not misandrist of me to admit, is it?


Nope. It's not. _We all_ face risks, men and women, whether in our teens, our twenties, our thirties, our forties, our fifties, out sixties...we all face risks. Older people may face different risks when reentering the dating scene, but they don't face "more". 



> I never wrote that. In fact, I explicitly posted data illustrating some of the risks men face.


You didn't write it. But up until this post, I felt you likely thought it. But I'm glad you don't. I'm glad we can agree that all people, no matter their gender or age, face risks in life.


----------



## Created2Write

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> As I sit here ... celibate in my sexless marriage contemplating divorce ... I appreciate you guys making it quite clear how dire my chances of ever getting laid again are
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


It's not that you don't have any chance of getting laid. I think you potentially have as much chance as a 25 year old guy. But with women in _your_ age bracket. 

THAT was my entire point.


----------



## COGypsy

Words just can't expressed how very lucky and fortunate I'm feeling about now. I have miraculously managed to be able to sound out enough big words and do hard math to successfully negotiate a divorce from my useless ex-husband. Not only that, but with only a few months left of my 30's, I've been able to find a man who is generous and kind enough to date me despite my age and lack of virginal status. Why, he even takes me out in public sometimes and doesn't even ask me to wear a bag over my head! He even manages to tolerate sex with the lights on--at my age, can you imagine??

Sometimes miracles really do happen!


----------



## Faithful Wife

That's been my experience, too Gypsy!

Actually, I had a train of men trying to date me after I left my first husband. It was difficult turning them all down and just hand selecting the awesome-est ones.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Created2Write said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I sit here ... celibate in my sexless marriage contemplating divorce ... I appreciate you guys making it quite clear how dire my chances of ever getting laid again are
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that you don't have any chance of getting laid. I think you potentially have as much chance as a 25 year old guy. But with women in _your_ age bracket.
> 
> THAT was my entire point.
Click to expand...

... and apparently they will have gone through a thousand men before they get to me :;

I'm just giving you a hard time. Actually I am better looking and in far better shape than my 25 year old self. If I never get laid again it's their loss.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> It's not that you don't have any chance of getting laid. I think you potentially have as much chance as a 25 year old guy. But with women in _your_ age bracket.
> 
> THAT was my entire point.


:iagree:

Plus I do think a man/woman who looks after themselves has a better chance then someone who doesn't. Also someone's personality and outlook on life definitely comes into play. There's a lot of things (men and women) can do to make themselves more desirable. 
From my personal experience my mum proved that to me.


----------



## samyeagar

COGypsy said:


> Words just can't expressed how very lucky and fortunate I'm feeling about now. I have miraculously managed to be able to sound out enough big words and do hard math to successfully negotiate a divorce from my useless ex-husband. Not only that, but with only a few months left of my 30's, I've been able to find a man who is generous and kind enough to date me despite my age and lack of virginal status. Why, he even takes me out in public sometimes and doesn't even ask me to wear a bag over my head! He even manages to tolerate sex with the lights on--at my age, can you imagine??
> 
> Sometimes miracles really do happen!


I am begining to think something is terribly wrong with me. I am almost 42, extricated myself from a marriage with an NPD woman, and have found myself head over heels in love, and more sexually atracted to a 38 year old non virginal woman than I have ever been attracted to ANY woman of any age before her.

The thing is, the pictures of the 45 and 25 year old women...I'd do the 45 YO one before the 25 YO one...just something about her look that pings my sexdar. Maybe it's the red hair...

ETA: And we the sex a whole lot...with the lights on too...and I take her out in public


----------



## COGypsy

Faithful Wife said:


> That's been my experience, too Gypsy!
> 
> Actually, I had a train of men trying to date me after I left my first husband. It was difficult turning them all down and just hand selecting the awesome-est ones.


Yep--I can honestly say that while after my divorce I dated a lot of guys, none of them were losers or creeps or really BAD in any way, they just weren't for me. Or I wasn't for them. Didn't "click". My hand-picked hunk o' awesomeness on the other hand.....lots of clicking! 

I think the key is that I didn't expect them to be a-holes and require that they prove that they're decent people. Quite the opposite. No matter what we expect, we're generally proved right, aren't we?


----------



## COGypsy

samyeagar said:


> I am begining to think something is terribly wrong with me. I am almost 42, extricated myself from a marriage with an NPD woman, and have found myself head over heels in love, and more sexually atracted to a 38 year old non virginal woman than I have ever been attracted to ANY woman of any age before her.
> 
> The thing is, the pictures of the 45 and 25 year old women...I'd do the 45 YO one before the 25 YO one...just something about her look that pings my sexdar. Maybe it's the red hair...
> 
> ETA: And we the sex a whole lot...with the lights on too...and I take her out in public


Clearly you're a freak and need to check in to the Man Clinic for a tune-up before they pull your card! 

The 45-year old woman looks like someone you could have fun with--attractive and you'd have fun at a football game or dinner. The 25-year old looks high-maintenance and frankly, disposable the morning after.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yeah Gypsy, you know it is funny....hetero men and women actually LIKE each other and want to date each other and have sex with each other...at ALL ages.

Which is sad news for the Mens Rights advocates who want women to think that they have an expiration date.


----------



## Faithful Wife

As for the two women....the young would would look like any average woman if not air brushed, and the older one would look like a 25 y/o model if airbrushed.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> As for the two women....the young would would look like any average woman if not air brushed, and the older one would look like a 25 y/o model if airbrushed.


I was thinking that they were bad comparisons, one full make up with good lighting on a photo shoot, the other with no make up on out and about doing her thing.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> As for the two women....the young would would look like any average woman if not air brushed, and the older one would look like a 25 y/o model if airbrushed.


And for myself, that may be part of it with my experience when I was younger, I pretty much automatically see through the makeup and airbrushing. That's also probably why I can look at so many women walking down the streets and find them better looking than the celebs and models. Airbrushed chicks are a dime a dozen, naturally good looking women are a dime a dozen.


----------



## samyeagar

TiggyBlue said:


> I was thinking that they were bad comparisons, one full make up with good lighting on a photo shoot, the other with no make up on out and about doing her thing.


I don't think it was a bad comparison at all. It was very illustrative of the prevailing mindset being discussed on this thread. Young women are perceived as hotties, and older women are perceived as well, old 

Most men and women are at their physical primes in their twenties. Hot twenty somethings are all over the place looking for other hot twenty somethings.

As men and women age, fewer and fewer men and women are able to maintain their physical hotness in relation to their twenty something self. It just happens.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam: "As men and women age, fewer and fewer men and women are able to maintain their physical hotness in relation to their twenty something self. It just happens."

Right! And for some reason...these Mens Rights dudes want to tell themselves that just because when they get old they will still find younger women attractive that those younger women will ALWAYS also find THEM attractive. Because you know, women need to be provided for so they gotta hook on to an older man with money. :rofl:


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> No I'm not kidding. Nowhere was a large portion of profiles proven to be fake.
> 
> And the number in Britain were the numbers of people who had been contacted by scammers. I've received email from a Nigerian prince trying to scam me. Does that prove that most email accounts are just scammers?


Selective reading! 

Now let's see what it really said:



> A study in the United Kingdom found that more than 200,000 people in Britain *had been conned *by scammers *posing as potential romantic partners online.*


So no, not just contacted. Not just attempted, but actually conned. Your Nigerian-scam emails have nothing to do with it, and are not an adequate analogy. 

Again, good effort to force the facts to fit your stereotypes, but it's still not working.


----------



## tacoma

There are no "good" guys in their 20's, you have to wait until their 30's.


----------



## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Right! And for some reason...these Mens Rights dudes want to tell themselves that just because when they get old they will still find younger women attractive that those younger women will ALWAYS also find THEM attractive. Because you know, women need to be provided for so they gotta hook on to an older man with money. :rofl:


Or is it just what they tell their wives, to keep her in her place and afraid to leave??


----------



## NextTimeAround

COGypsy said:


> Words just can't expressed how very lucky and fortunate I'm feeling about now. I have miraculously managed to be able to sound out enough big words and do hard math to successfully negotiate a divorce from my useless ex-husband. Not only that, but with only a few months left of my 30's, I've been able to find a man who is generous and kind enough to date me despite my age and lack of virginal status. Why, he even takes me out in public sometimes and doesn't even ask me to wear a bag over my head! *He even manages to tolerate sex with the lights on--at my age, can you imagine??*
> 
> Sometimes miracles really do happen!


I don#t think that's so surprising, considering how big and fat so many 20 something women are.

I saw that my fiance left a draft e-mail in his account to his EA where he said (among other things),"I know that you are upset that you don't get as much attention as you would like at the bars."

My fiance is 11 years older than she. I think she was upset that she wasn't attracting guys closer to her age. She ended up settling for another 40 year old.

And that was when she was 28.


----------



## Jellybeans

samyeagar said:


> I am begining to think something is terribly wrong with me. I am almost 42, extricated myself from a marriage with an NPD woman, and have found myself head over heels in love, and more sexually atracted to a 38 year old non virginal woman than I have ever been attracted to ANY woman of any age before her.
> 
> The thing is, the pictures of the 45 and 25 year old women...I'd do the 45 YO one before the 25 YO one...just something about her look that pings *my sexdar.* Maybe it's the red hair...
> 
> ETA: And we the sex a whole lot...with the lights on too...and I take her out in public


:rofl::smthumbup: Awesome!



Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah Gypsy, you know it is funny....hetero men and women actually LIKE each other and want to date each other and have sex with each other...at ALL ages.
> 
> Which is sad news for the Mens Rights advocates *who want women to think that they have an expiration date*.



Preach on, sista!


----------



## Jellybeans

ne9907 said:


> . However, I KNOW any man who I pick will be one lucky motherfvcker because there is nobody in the world quite like me.


Love this. 



Faithful Wife said:


> *“You’d be surprised,” says Carol Ford, a fifty-something widow for ten years and online dater for two years, “how easy it is to find someone who is warm and interesting to be with. I’ve been out with a lot of charming men my age. Then after a romantic evening, I can go back to my little retreat and he goes to his, and there’s no squabbling over ‘Why didn’t you fold my laundry the way I like it?’”*


And this is probably why I am never getting married again. To me, this is ideal. It's perfection! :smthumbup:


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> Really? Cause here you're insinuating that women leave otherwise perfectly good men, just so they can have some fantasy perfect guy.


You're claiming that women don't leave good men looking to upgrade? Every man whose wife left him had it coming? Talk about your misandry.

Also, the point I was making, and you continue to miss, was about risk. If a woman is being abused, she can likely find a better man in the dating scene. All she needs is a guy who won't beat her. However, if she's grown bored because her husband's elbows are too pointy, she may have a very difficult time finding a better man. She faces greater risk. And it is that woman who is harmed by the mindless, feminist bromides encouraging her to follow her dream, disregard the risk, and damn the consequences. Unsurprisingly, that point is met with great hostility by the women who are selling the pro-divorce agenda.



> And here you do your best to scare a woman into staying with an abusive man.


We were talking about Nice Guys, weren't we? Are you suggesting that millions of women are trapped in marriages to Nice Guys?











> And here's more scare tactics:


Your inconsistency is maddening. A few posts ago, you were indignant that I was bothering to point out the obvious fact that the dating scene contains risk. Now, you're insisting that, by pointing out such an obvious fact, I'm trying to SCARE women.

Which is it? Are women competent adults who can acknowledge the obvious fact that there might not be an upgrade to their mate on the dating scene? Or are women so mentally and emotionally fragile that the knowledge will shatter them? You can't have it both ways.



> You consistently make light of the issues women face in relationships. Not just in this thread, either. It's very clear what you think of women.


I'm not making light of women, or their issues. I'm making light of mindless feminism. I'm making light of the concept that women are simply tall children who must be coddled and protected from the big, bad world of responsibility and the consequences of one's decisions. You obviously feel differently. And not just in this thread, either.



> I think women who are older can be just as attractive as a young woman, if not more so.
> 
> That picture wasn't posted as something "most women" would rather have sex with, it was posted as an example of what other 25 year old women would want to have sex with. I don't think that "most women" would want to have sex with that 25 year old guy. That would be sick. I think most normal people would rather have sex with someone attractive in their age bracket.


So, in your opinion, the advertisers who spend billions of dollars every year by leveraging sex appeal to sell everything from watches, to perfume, to computers, are all idiots? They focus their attention on young, beautiful men and women when, really, they should be focusing on 30-50 year-olds (the group that spends the most on consumer goods)? You should bring your keen insight to the advertising industry. I'm sure companies are just dying to throw money at you to put on a lingerie fashion show starring 50 year-old models. Genius.



> Nope. It's not. _We all_ face risks, men and women, whether in our teens, our twenties, our thirties, our forties, our fifties, out sixties...we all face risks. Older people may face different risks when reentering the dating scene, but they don't face "more".


Right. We're all exactly the same. Please.

I just can't resist the temptation to use the misogynist's tool of math one more time. Let's look at some raw numbers to estimate risk.

Scenario A is that a 25 year-old woman is in the dating scene looking for a relationship. She is open to divorced, or single men 25-29 years-old. According to the latest census records, there are 293,000 divorced men in that age group and 6,979,000 never married men. So, 7,272,000 potential suitors for her.

Scenario B is that of a 45 year-old woman looking for a relationship from a 45-49 year-old man. 1,603,000 men of that age have never been married and 1,519,000 men are divorced. So, she has a total of 3,122,000 potential suitors.

Now, as someone familiar with math, I can clearly see that 3,122,000<7,272,000. That means the first number is less than the second number. In fact, the older woman has only 43% as many potential suitors as the 25 year-old. And that's with us accepting your obviously flawed assumption that people don't like to date outside their age range.

Obviously, the 45 year-old woman faces greater risk for finding a man. The 25 year-old woman has more than twice as many potential matches to go through.


----------



## PHTlump

TiggyBlue said:


> I was thinking that they were bad comparisons, one full make up with good lighting on a photo shoot, the other with no make up on out and about doing her thing.


I agree. But I wasn't about to waste time trying to find two women of those specific ages in similar poses, with similar lighting, and with similar post-processing. I just went with the first picture Google Images returned for each search.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Selective reading! ...
> 
> So no, not just contacted. Not just attempted, but actually conned. Your Nigerian-scam emails have nothing to do with it, and are not an adequate analogy.
> 
> Again, good effort to force the facts to fit your stereotypes, but it's still not working.


Actually, I think it's more of an example of lazy reporting.

The ONS reported that there were 229,000 cases of fraud in England and Wales in 2012. Not just online dating fraud, but all fraud of any type. Online dating fraud accounted for 1,212 cases.

But keep looking for that army of hookers employed by the patriarchy to skew statistics. I'm sure it's out there, somewhere.


----------



## Created2Write

PHTlump said:


> You're claiming that women don't leave good men looking to upgrade? Every man whose wife left him had it coming? Talk about your misandry.


You like putting words in people's mouth, I see. No, I don't think that every man whose wife left him had it coming. There are women in the world who can't be pleased, no matter how hard the guy tries. And to those guys, I say find a woman worthy of their devotion. Don't waste time missing the other. But I _don't_ believe in trying to scare women into staying with a man just because she "might not find someone else". Because, while there are plenty of good men in this world(who also deserve to be with someone who loves them, btw), there are also plenty of terrible men in this world who deserve to be kicked to the curb. And, just so I'm not accused of misandry again, I also think there are plenty of terrible women in this world who deserve to be kicked to the curb as well. 



> Also, the point I was making, and you continue to miss, was about risk. If a woman is being abused, she can likely find a better man in the dating scene. All she needs is a guy who won't beat her. However, if she's grown bored because her husband's elbows are too pointy, she may have a very difficult time finding a better man. She faces greater risk. And it is that woman who is harmed by the mindless, feminist bromides encouraging her to follow her dream, disregard the risk, and damn the consequences. Unsurprisingly, that point is met with great hostility by the women who are selling the pro-divorce agenda.


I, personally, am not pro-divorce. There are, unfortunately, cases where it can be necessary. I believe abuse on either the spouse or the children, neglecting either the spouse or the children, and consistent long-term sexlessness unrelated to a medical condition to be a few. Substance abuse is one I'm not so sure on. But yes, I believe divorce to be applicable in some cases. 

And no, I'm not missing anything about the risk. You're just making the risk into a much bigger deal than I think it is. 



> We were talking about Nice Guys, weren't we?


No, _you_ were talking about Nice Guys. This thread is about the OP, and her bf is a massive jerk. No one here is telling the OP to leave a perfectly great guy who has some quirks because she's "bored". While I'm sure it happens to both men and women, that is _not_ the context of the thread. Well, it wasn't until you came into the conversation.



> Are you suggesting that millions of women are trapped in marriages to Nice Guys?


Yes, there are millions of women who have found a man who loves and treats them well, and they are happy in their relationships. And there are other women who, unfortunately, aren't with men who respect and treat them well. Just like there are men who are with women who don't treat them well. 



> Your inconsistency is maddening. A few posts ago, you were indignant that I was bothering to point out the obvious fact that the dating scene contains risk. Now, you're insisting that, by pointing out such an obvious fact, I'm trying to SCARE women.


1. Unless the women here are in marriages that their parents arranged for them, we all know about dating and its risks because we've been there, done that. We don't need you to outline and reiterate the risks we've all faced before.

2. You're making a much bigger deal of the risks than necessary. You can't even accept that I've _agreed with you_, that yes, there are risks when dating. I just don't think those risks are anywhere near as serious as you're making them out to be, which yes, I think is a scare tactic used to keep women with men they shouldn't be with. In the OP's case, her bf is an abusive jerk. She doesn't need a lecture on risk. Too many women put up with abuse as it is, because they're terrified of the supposed "risks". She needs exactly what you hate so much: _encouragement_, positive affirmation that she deserves better than to have soup thrown in her face. She needs empowerment, courage to leave this guy. 

Merely for the purposes of clarification, I'll add that if this were a case of a woman who was just bored with an otherwise fantastic guy, my encouragement to her would be different than it currently is.



> Which is it? Are women competent adults who can acknowledge the obvious fact that there might not be an upgrade to their mate on the dating scene? Or are women so mentally and emotionally fragile that the knowledge will shatter them? You can't have it both ways.


More scare tactics. "What you have now might be the best you'll ever have!" It's sickening. 



> I'm not making light of women, or their issues. I'm making light of mindless feminism. I'm making light of the concept that women are simply tall children who must be coddled and protected from the big, bad world of responsibility and the consequences of one's decisions. You obviously feel differently. And not just in this thread, either.


I believe women are beautiful, intelligent beings capable of facing the world on their own, without the need of random, strange men to guide them on the right path. I believe women capable of seeing the risks for themselves at whatever it is they're pursuing. I believe women are capable of making their own choices and facing any consequences that may ensue. And I believe women are clever enough to see misogyny masked behind sarcastic condescension. 



> So, in your opinion, the advertisers who spend billions of dollars every year by leveraging sex appeal to sell everything from watches, to perfume, to computers, are all idiots? They focus their attention on young, beautiful men and women when, really, they should be focusing on 30-50 year-olds (the group that spends the most on consumer goods)? You should bring your keen insight to the advertising industry. I'm sure companies are just dying to throw money at you to put on a lingerie fashion show starring 50 year-old models. Genius.


In my opinion marketing techniques are _not_ an accurate example of human attraction. Marketing techniques prove one thing: sex sells. 



> Right. We're all exactly the same. Please.


Putting more word's in my mouth, as usual. I didn't say we were all exactly the same. I said we all face risks. I just don't believe that older people face more risks when they reenter the dating scene. I think, in many cases, they may face less.



> I just can't resist the temptation to use the misogynist's tool of math one more time. Let's look at some raw numbers to estimate risk.
> 
> Scenario A is that a 25 year-old woman is in the dating scene looking for a relationship. She is open to divorced, or single men 25-29 years-old. According to the latest census records, there are 293,000 divorced men in that age group and 6,979,000 never married men. So, 7,272,000 potential suitors for her.
> 
> Scenario B is that of a 45 year-old woman looking for a relationship from a 45-49 year-old man. 1,603,000 men of that age have never been married and 1,519,000 men are divorced. So, she has a total of 3,122,000 potential suitors.
> 
> Now, as someone familiar with math, I can clearly see that 3,122,000<7,272,000. That means the first number is less than the second number. In fact, the older woman has only 43% as many potential suitors as the 25 year-old. And that's with us accepting your obviously flawed assumption that people don't like to date outside their age range.
> 
> Obviously, the 45 year-old woman faces greater risk for finding a man. The 25 year-old woman has more than twice as many potential matches to go through.


Yay! You identified the larger number! Good for you! The older woman still has millions of potential suitors to sift through. _Millions_. Are those numbers only men who live in the U.S.A.? Because there are plenty of ways people can meet and date internationally, which logically would _increase_ the older woman's potential circle of suitors. I know there are a lot of dating sites that specialize in helping people over the age of thirty mingle with others in their age bracket, inside and outside the U.S.A. That creates millions of opportunities on top of the millions she already has. 

See, you look at those numbers and see a difference of 3-4 million men, with the odds in the younger woman's favor. A drastic difference, to you. Something to be concerned over, hence the warnings of risk, blah blah blah. I look at those numbers and see two women of different ages facing the exact same scenario: find Mr. Right in this sea of men. I don't see the difference in those numbers as anything to be worried about at all. There are more young people than there are people over 45...big whoop. 

See, I believe that anyone can find a soul mate. Yes, it's difficult. It's not easy, even though you keep pretending I think it is. I've dated before. I've had my heart broken. I know the risks involved with dating, and it can be very scary. There's never been a shortage of guys who hit on me, and it still took six tries for me to find my husband. So even for us 20-somethings, it's not easy peasy. I didn't find my husband immediately. But looking back on the other relationships, I can see a lot of the mistakes I made. A lot of the unrealistic expectations I had. I know that, should I ever be single again(God forbid), I would be much more successful the second time around. I'm more mature. I'm not nearly as gullible. I have more life experience. 

I see the way my husband looks at me. The way he stares. He loved me when we were in our early twenties, yes, but it's really nothing compared to what he feels for me now. I, literally, can't wait to be in my thirties and see how he looks at me then. Not to mention, a lot(most?) women hit a sexual peak in their forties, something else that is highly desirable to men. The risk(there's that word again!) of their hot 20-something bombshell pulling a bait and switch on them could be less. 

See, I think the older a woman gets, the sexier she gets. Maturity is a major asset. Yeah, hot and wild twenty-somethings have firmer bodies, no wrinkles...all that superficial stuff that really shouldn't matter. But an older woman who takes care of herself? _Damn_. There isn't a hot on this planet that can compare. There's a woman at my gym. Her and her husband come in everyday. She has to be in her sixties, but you wouldn't know it. She is in _the_ best shape of anyone I've ever seen. She lifts more weights than the young girls do. You know...the young girls who sit on the bike for forty minutes and only burn twenty calories? 

This woman...she is _fine_. I have a really hard time not staring at her body cause it's amazing! Does she have wrinkles? Yes. Is her skin less tight than a 20-something's? Yes. Does she have stretch marks from when had babies? Yes. Is her skin all the same tone? No. Does she have grey hair? Yes. And you know what? _It only makes her hotter_! Her age + her physical ability = I want to be her when I grow up! She has so much confidence! And she's _hilarious_. One of the nicest ladies I've ever met. I've seen the men stare at her over the lazy twenty-somethings. Why? Because she has substance. She's not fake or playing a part...putting on a gym outfit that matches right down to the color of her socks, and then sitting on a machine and texting for twenty minutes. 

Age does not make one more or less attractive by default.


----------



## Jellybeans

Well again... ladies... you better find your life partner in your 20s because if not, you are screwed and will be condemned to a life of being a spinster and no man is going to want you ever ever ever past your "sell by" date.

So settle for whatever it is you do find because if not, you are SOL.

Did I get that right?


----------



## ntamph

Jellybeans said:


> And this is probably why I am never getting married again. To me, this is ideal. It's perfection! :smthumbup:


I'm always amazed by how many men can't take care of themselves. Maybe because I'm younger and was taught to do these things?


----------



## momma1816

PHTlump said:


> You're claiming that women don't leave good men looking to upgrade? Every man whose wife left him had it coming? Talk about your misandry.
> 
> Also, the point I was making, and you continue to miss, was about risk. If a woman is being abused, she can likely find a better man in the dating scene. All she needs is a guy who won't beat her. However, if she's grown bored because her husband's elbows are too pointy, she may have a very difficult time finding a better man. She faces greater risk. And it is that woman who is harmed by the mindless, feminist bromides encouraging her to follow her dream, disregard the risk, and damn the consequences. Unsurprisingly, that point is met with great hostility by the women who are selling the pro-divorce agenda.
> 
> 
> We were talking about Nice Guys, weren't we? Are you suggesting that millions of women are trapped in marriages to Nice Guys?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your inconsistency is maddening. A few posts ago, you were indignant that I was bothering to point out the obvious fact that the dating scene contains risk. Now, you're insisting that, by pointing out such an obvious fact, I'm trying to SCARE women.
> 
> Which is it? Are women competent adults who can acknowledge the obvious fact that there might not be an upgrade to their mate on the dating scene? Or are women so mentally and emotionally fragile that the knowledge will shatter them? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> 
> I'm not making light of women, or their issues. I'm making light of mindless feminism. I'm making light of the concept that women are simply tall children who must be coddled and protected from the big, bad world of responsibility and the consequences of one's decisions. You obviously feel differently. And not just in this thread, either.
> 
> 
> So, in your opinion, the advertisers who spend billions of dollars every year by leveraging sex appeal to sell everything from watches, to perfume, to computers, are all idiots? They focus their attention on young, beautiful men and women when, really, they should be focusing on 30-50 year-olds (the group that spends the most on consumer goods)? You should bring your keen insight to the advertising industry. I'm sure companies are just dying to throw money at you to put on a lingerie fashion show starring 50 year-old models. Genius.
> 
> 
> Right. We're all exactly the same. Please.
> 
> I just can't resist the temptation to use the misogynist's tool of math one more time. Let's look at some raw numbers to estimate risk.
> 
> Scenario A is that a 25 year-old woman is in the dating scene looking for a relationship. She is open to divorced, or single men 25-29 years-old. According to the latest census records, there are 293,000 divorced men in that age group and 6,979,000 never married men. So, 7,272,000 potential suitors for her.
> 
> Scenario B is that of a 45 year-old woman looking for a relationship from a 45-49 year-old man. 1,603,000 men of that age have never been married and 1,519,000 men are divorced. So, she has a total of 3,122,000 potential suitors.
> 
> Now, as someone familiar with math, I can clearly see that 3,122,000<7,272,000. That means the first number is less than the second number. In fact, the older woman has only 43% as many potential suitors as the 25 year-old. And that's with us accepting your obviously flawed assumption that people don't like to date outside their age range.
> 
> Obviously, the 45 year-old woman faces greater risk for finding a man. The 25 year-old woman has more than twice as many potential matches to go through.


PHTlump,

I agree with your overall generalization that many older men find young women in their 20s to be physically attractive. I also agree that as women gets older, they may face some different challenges than men in dating that they may not have anticipated. However, you are painting a very reductionist picture of dating and remarriage based solely on age when reality dictates there are many factors that go into finding someone to settle down with. And the picture you are painting of older men suggest they are quite superficial and care only about youthful looks. 

You are also belittling and insulting women who disagree with you by claiming they are unable to do math, are caught up in Disney princess fantasies, or weirdly, insisting that women divorce men for pointy elbows are some other such nonsense. You consistently set the bar low for women by implying if her BF is not abusive or not cheating, he's probably as good as it gets. My own opinion is that both sexes often have wildly unrealistic expectations of their mates, but that's a topic for another time.

I cannot tell if you are a misogynist or if you are one of those people who confuse the ability to win a verbal/written joust with having moral superiority. If you can't look back at your posts and see how you are coming across, I have nothing further to say to you except good luck with that.


----------



## Jellybeans

ntamph said:


> I'm always amazed by how many men can't take care of themselves. Maybe because I'm younger and was taught to do these things?


I don't know. I think anyone can take care of themself but I sure don't want to take care of anyone else.  Which is why separate houses but still lovers sounds like paradise to me. Hee hee.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

ntamph said:


> I'm always amazed by how many men can't take care of themselves. Maybe because I'm younger and was taught to do these things?


Can't take care of themselves ... or won't?

Grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. ... not exactly rocket science.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Actually, I think it's more of an example of lazy reporting.
> 
> The ONS reported that there were 229,000 cases of fraud in England and Wales in 2012. Not just online dating fraud, but all fraud of any type. Online dating fraud accounted for 1,212 cases.
> 
> But keep looking for that army of hookers employed by the patriarchy to skew statistics. I'm sure it's out there, somewhere.


Not exactly. 
The 1212 figure is from the ONS, which gives us "official" fraud statistics. And it tells that some 3 people a day in UK alone are scammed --as in actually lost money-- in online dating. You don't think that's significant at all?

The 229,000 figure comes from peer reviewed research. The discrepancy exists because most frauds go unreported because of shame and upset from the victims. 

Also worthy of consideration is that these numbers are on the rise, nearly doubling from 2011 - 2012. And this is true all over the world. The UK is not unique by any stretch.

And let's not forget that these numbers only reflect fraud. What about the various reports of how these sites are used by sexual predators? What of the accusations that dating websites themselves create profiles of attractive people and use them to lure people into their sites? What of the various reports of people using fake profiles to conduct research on dating habits or to spark comedy tv shows? 

Dating sites are not just for honest and well-intentioned people seeking mates. And I think it's naive to assume that these other uses don't muddy the statistical waters.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Jellybeans said:


> Well again... ladies... you better find your life partner in your 20s because if not, you are screwed and will be condemned to a life of being a spinster and no man is going to want you ever ever ever past your "sell by" date.
> 
> So settle for whatever it is you do find because if not, you are SOL.
> 
> Did I get that right?


Have not met a woman yet with a "sell by" stamp on their a$$.

I'm 46 and if I was on the dating scene today, there are a few 50+ single women I know who might be getting a call. Off the top of my head I can think of women I know in their 30's, 40's and 50's that I would be interested in.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Just...you and sam are both saying the same thing (that you are happily into women your own age) but Men's Rights advocates just think you are lying and being kind. They all want to tell themselves that THEY will remain attractive to young women FOREVER, while women will become unattractive at age 30. 

I'm sorry that the Men's Rights advocates cannot see reality for what it is, but I'm sure happy men like you speak out anyway. You are the majority, they are a teeny tiny fraction of a minority. Cheers to you for being a normal, red-blooded man who is into women his own age! :smthumbup:

(which again...isn't unusual...I'm just making my snarky point)


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Faithful Wife said:


> Just...you and sam are both saying the same thing (that you are happily into women your own age) but Men's Rights advocates just think you are lying and being kind. They all want to tell themselves that THEY will remain attractive to young women FOREVER, while women will become unattractive at age 30.
> 
> I'm sorry that the Men's Rights advocates cannot see reality for what it is, but I'm sure happy men like you speak out anyway. You are the majority, they are a teeny tiny fraction of a minority. Cheers to you for being a normal, red-blooded man who is into women his own age! :smthumbup:
> 
> (which again...isn't unusual...I'm just making my snarky point)


Ha! Well, I don't know who these Men's Rights advocates are but they sound as rational as the tin-foil hat conspiracy guys. 

Why in the heck would a man my age expect a 20-something to be interested in them? My daughters are younger but most of the crew I hung out with in HS have kids that age.

I had a woman a couple of months ago who is in her mid 20s hand me her phone number. There is no question I was flattered but the first questions that popped in my mind were ... daddy issues? low self-esteem? desperate need of security? In other words, there is something wrong with the picture.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Just...you and sam are both saying the same thing (that you are happily into women your own age) but Men's Rights advocates just think you are lying and being kind. They all want to tell themselves that THEY will remain attractive to young women FOREVER, while women will become unattractive at age 30.
> 
> I'm sorry that the Men's Rights advocates cannot see reality for what it is, but I'm sure happy men like you speak out anyway. You are the majority, they are a teeny tiny fraction of a minority. Cheers to you for being a normal, red-blooded man who is into women his own age! :smthumbup:
> 
> (which again...isn't unusual...I'm just making my snarky point)


That all being said, as the word got out that I had separated from my now ex wife, there were some twenty somethings that worked in my office that started the pursuit. I shut them down because I wasn't really interested and don't get involved with coworkers.


----------



## Faithful Wife

sam....Strangely the same thing happened to ME when I got divorced and got back on the market. A bunch of men 10 years (and some more than that) younger than me started pursuing me. As well as men my own age, and some much older.

But don't tell the Men's Right dudes about that! shhhhhh.....They are convinced I was old and haggard and no man would want a busted down old lady such as myself. Certainly not those 25 year old studs who were beating down my door.

Again....shhhh....it will be our secret.


----------



## Holland

samyeagar said:


> That all being said, as the word got out that I had separated from my now ex wife, there were some twenty somethings that worked in my office that started the pursuit. I shut them down because I wasn't really interested and don't get involved with coworkers.


This is like my partner, he has never/would never get involved with a co worker. He works for a large multi national in a high level management position, it would be a career killer.

Anyway he is a very gorgeous man in his 50's, women try to hit on him and if he enjoys that attention it does not bother me at all. It is all good for the ego.

But he chose me, a sexy, loving, caring beautiful woman in my late 40's now. We have had plenty of open discussion on aging and his absolute stance is that while younger women are good to look at, there is no way he could have a relationship with someone much younger. He wants a partnership with an equal, he values the support I give him and the fact that a woman my age can be both playful and mature. We are both having the best sex of our lives and it only gets better with time. 

All of the males in my life tend to date and marry women closer to their age. As a man matures he should be able to see the value in a woman as she matures, if he cannot then possibly he is emotionally stunted.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Scenario A is that a 25 year-old woman is in the dating scene looking for a relationship. She is open to divorced, or single men 25-29 years-old. According to the latest census records, there are 293,000 divorced men in that age group and 6,979,000 never married men. So, 7,272,000 potential suitors for her.
> 
> Scenario B is that of a 45 year-old woman looking for a relationship from a 45-49 year-old man. 1,603,000 men of that age have never been married and 1,519,000 men are divorced. So, she has a total of 3,122,000 potential suitors.
> 
> Now, as someone familiar with math, I can clearly see that 3,122,000<7,272,000. That means the first number is less than the second number. In fact, the older woman has only 43% as many potential suitors as the 25 year-old. And that's with us accepting your obviously flawed assumption that people don't like to date outside their age range.


Funny, if you play the same numbers game on women you come up with more or less the same results. So this 43% as many suitors that we're supposed to worry about is actually for 43% as many women.

Works out pretty well in my eyes!


----------



## PHTlump

Created2Write said:


> You like putting words in people's mouth, I see. No, I don't think that every man whose wife left him had it coming.


I think your positions are ridiculous enough that I need not misrepresent them. You took issue with my example of a woman leaving a good man to upgrade on the dating scene. Naturally, I assumed that you objected because you found that scenario unrealistic. Now, you allow that exactly that scenario happens. So, I'm glad we agree that it happens. I just don't know why you had to mindlessly object in the first place to something you now agree with.



> But I _don't_ believe in trying to scare women into staying with a man just because she "might not find someone else".


Nobody has tried to scare women. I think highly enough of women that I assumed a few observations on human nature, male preferences, and population statistics wouldn't scare the bejesus out of them. Perhaps I overestimated a few of them.



> Because, while there are plenty of good men in this world(who also deserve to be with someone who loves them, btw), there are also plenty of terrible men in this world who deserve to be kicked to the curb.


Yes. I agree. And I have gone so far as to argue that women who seek to upgrade from abusive men won't have that difficult of a time doing it. Refraining from beating one's wife is a low hurdle to clear.



> And no, I'm not missing anything about the risk. You're just making the risk into a much bigger deal than I think it is.


How can I do that? I didn't invent human nature. I haven't made up the numbers I provided. All I've done is point out a few facts that upset some rationalization hamsters. That is my cardinal sin.



> No, _you_ were talking about Nice Guys. This thread is about the OP, and her bf is a massive jerk.


And the OP did not provide that information. Her initial post simply stated that she was considering leaving her relationship, that her friends and family told her that men are attracted to younger women, and asked if that was true. I told her that men did generally find younger women more attractive than older women, which was obviously very upsetting to many of the women here who had no idea how the world works.

And, I went so far as to give my example of being able to easily upgrade from an abusive man.

It wasn't until we were well down this rabbit hole about how older women are just as beautiful as younger women, risk in the dating scene is nonexistent, and population statistics are skewed by armies of hookers working for the patriarchy, that another poster offered that the OP's boyfriend was a jerk.

If that information was provided from the beginning, I wouldn't have hedged my bets by offering generic advice for multiple scenarios. However, that doesn't mean that human nature and dating scene risk now changes to be something different than what I represented.



> 1. Unless the women here are in marriages that their parents arranged for them, we all know about dating and its risks because we've been there, done that. We don't need you to outline and reiterate the risks we've all faced before.


If you've been there and you know the risks, why take issue with my pointing them out?



> 2. You're making a much bigger deal of the risks than necessary.


Is saying that around half of the women who divorce after 40 end up celibate, but don't worry about it, better than simply stopping after reporting the statistic? I'm really not the one making a big deal out of the risk.



> Merely for the purposes of clarification, I'll add that if this were a case of a woman who was just bored with an otherwise fantastic guy, my encouragement to her would be different than it currently is.


But that would be misogynistic. I was being accused of misogyny long before the OP's boyfriend was reported to be a jerk. The mere acknowledgement of the possibility that women might not find effortless bliss in the dating scene is enough to make the feminists on this board howl.



> More scare tactics. "What you have now might be the best you'll ever have!" It's sickening.


Do you even know what risk is? It's the possibility that something bad will happen. Earlier in this very post you claim to agree that risk is present in the dating scene. However, now you claim that the acknowledgment of risk is sickening. And you appear to have absolutely no self-awareness on the issue. Bravo.



> In my opinion marketing techniques are _not_ an accurate example of human attraction. Marketing techniques prove one thing: sex sells.


You're missing the point. Yes, sex sells. And if you think that marketing companies are spending $170 billion in this country alone based on hunches, then you're crazy. They know what people like. They know what people find sexy. And that's why models tend to be young and beautiful. If 50 year-old models sold underwear better than 20 year-old models, you can bet your ass that you would be seeing a lot more 50 year-old models.



> Putting more word's in my mouth, as usual. I didn't say we were all exactly the same. I said we all face risks. I just don't believe that older people face more risks when they reenter the dating scene. I think, in many cases, they may face less.


Well, you said that we all face the same risks, which isn't far off from being the same. And if you really think that older people face less risk in the dating scene, then I think you just don't understand the meaning of the word.



> Yay! You identified the larger number! Good for you! The older woman still has millions of potential suitors to sift through. _Millions_.


It was nothing. Unlike many here, math comes easily for me. Yes. The older woman has millions of potential suitors. That wasn't the point. The point was she has less than half of the suitors of the younger woman. Yet, you believe she has the same chance, or possibly even a better chance, of finding a mate. The only way you can believe that is to turn the math on its head.



> Are those numbers only men who live in the U.S.A.? Because there are plenty of ways people can meet and date internationally, which logically would increase the older woman's potential circle of suitors.


Give your poor hamster a break. How many women do you think would take comfort at the idea that a man well suited for them lives on the other side of the globe?

Also, you can't just jack up one side of the equation. If there are millions more men out there for an older women, there will still be more than twice that many for the younger woman. The relative risk doesn't change.



> See, you look at those numbers and see a difference of 3-4 million men, with the odds in the younger woman's favor. A drastic difference, to you. Something to be concerned over, hence the warnings of risk, blah blah blah. I look at those numbers and see two women of different ages facing the exact same scenario: find Mr. Right in this sea of men. I don't see the difference in those numbers as anything to be worried about at all. There are more young people than there are people over 45...big whoop.


If the difference was 3-4 million out of 300 million, then I would agree with you. That's a 1% difference. Not enough to worry about. But the difference is more stark than that. The older woman has less than half the available men compared to the younger woman.

And all of those 3-4 million aren't viable suitors, either. Most women have geographic constraints. If a woman lives in New York, she would probably prefer to date men nearby. A potential match in Nebraska isn't helpful. In fact, most people want to date much closer to home. Many sites have boxes to focus searches within 10 miles, or 30 miles, etc. Most people would reject a match 1,000 miles away.

And I haven't even broached the subject of women's preferences being limited to a particular race, height, weight, income level, etc. Each one of those traits winnows the field further.



> See, I think the older a woman gets, the sexier she gets. Maturity is a major asset. Yeah, hot and wild twenty-somethings have firmer bodies, no wrinkles...all that superficial stuff that really shouldn't matter.


And I think that is your issue. You have an opinion on how the world *should* be. You care about what would be *fair*. And it pains you to think that the world isn't actually as fair and nice and you think it ought to be. Sadly, the world doesn't care about your preferences.

Now, I'm not reporting an opinion. I'm simply acknowledging the way the world actually works. Sure, I think the world could be kinder and gentler. But it's not. And it's not helpful to anyone to hide our heads in the sand and insist that we can wish our way to a new, improved, reality.



> This woman...she is _fine_. I have a really hard time not staring at her body cause it's amazing! Does she have wrinkles? Yes. Is her skin less tight than a 20-something's? Yes. Does she have stretch marks from when had babies? Yes. Is her skin all the same tone? No. Does she have grey hair? Yes. And you know what? _It only makes her hotter_! Her age + her physical ability = I want to be her when I grow up!


Why wait? You can have her look now. You can dye your hair gray. You can give yourself stretch marks. You can tan heavily to prematurely age your skin. Perhaps take up smoking, if you don't already, to increase wrinkles on your face. With luck, you could look like a hot, 60+ woman in 10-15 years.

I'm guessing you wouldn't be so keen on that idea. Because you don't really mean that the 60+ year-old woman is hot. At least, not compared to a woman in her 20s or 30s. You mean that she's hot for her age. And I'm sure she is.

Even if you mean that she's empirically hot for any age. You ought to know better than to conclude that, therefore, ALL 60+ women are more attractive than 25 year-old women. It just doesn't follow.


----------



## PHTlump

Jellybeans said:


> Did I get that right?


Nope.


----------



## PHTlump

momma1816 said:


> PHTlump,
> 
> I agree with your overall generalization that many older men find young women in their 20s to be physically attractive. I also agree that as women gets older, they may face some different challenges than men in dating that they may not have anticipated.


I think you're well ahead of most of the folks on this thread by acknowledging such earth-shattering realities.



> However, you are painting a very reductionist picture of dating and remarriage based solely on age when reality dictates there are many factors that go into finding someone to settle down with.


I agree. But we're speaking in generalities. And generalities encompass all, or most, situations and give tendencies. Of course exceptions exist. But it's foolish to latch on to exceptions and then insist that, for most, the exception becomes the rule.



> And the picture you are painting of older men suggest they are quite superficial and care only about youthful looks.


I don't make moral judgments on attraction. Yes, men care about looks. It's not the only thing they care about. But it's a big factor.

It's also where attraction starts. A woman's appearance is what determines whether a man approaches her. That's where the initial attraction comes from. Yes, the attraction can wax or wane from that initial point. But, it's a big point and we can't say that it's superficial or immoral.

Similarly, women care about a man's income. It's not the only consideration they have. But it's a big one. An unemployed man is handicapped on the dating scene. He can overcome the handicap with enough other positive attributes. But a man asking a woman to buy him a drink because he can't afford to buy her one won't come off well. And I don't think that, because of that preference, women are superficial or immoral. They just are how they are. I deal with it.



> You are also belittling and insulting women who disagree with you by claiming they are unable to do math, are caught up in Disney princess fantasies, or weirdly, insisting that women divorce men for pointy elbows are some other such nonsense.


I am belittling the women who dismiss statistics simply because they don't like the position supported by the statistics. Math has no agenda. Also, I belittle the women who can't bring themselves to acknowledge that women face any risk on the dating scene. It's child-like. The fact that I point it out shouldn't say anything about me.



> You consistently set the bar low for women by implying if her BF is not abusive or not cheating, he's probably as good as it gets. My own opinion is that both sexes often have wildly unrealistic expectations of their mates, but that's a topic for another time.


You've misunderstood me. I'm making an argument about risk by examining the opposite ends of the spectrum of husbands/boyfriends. On one end, the wife beaters can probably be easily upgraded. The bar is set low. Most men will be an upgrade, so the woman can be fairly confident that she can upgrade.

On the other end is the nice guy whose only flaw is pointy elbows. A woman who leaves such a man has a much more daunting task ahead of her in trying to upgrade. Most men will be inferior to the man she had.

Both of these points seem obvious and beyond dispute. Yet I'm now 200 posts into a thread where some women refuse to accept this basic premise. Now, I agree that most of the men in the world fall somewhere in between these two extremes of the wife-beater and Mr. Pointy Elbows. And the risk associated with trying to upgrade each man on the dating scene will float up and down depending on the relative quality of the man in question.



> I cannot tell if you are a misogynist or if you are one of those people who confuse the ability to win a verbal/written joust with having moral superiority. If you can't look back at your posts and see how you are coming across, I have nothing further to say to you except good luck with that.


I'm neither. I'm just a man who is easily frustrated with inane positions and mindless feminism/misandry. Sadly, both are far too common on these boards. I know my position comes across as insensitive. But I rarely respond to stupid attacks with tact.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> I am belittling the women who dismiss statistics simply because they don't like the position supported by the statistics. Math has no agenda. Also, I belittle the women who can't bring themselves to acknowledge that women face any risk on the dating scene. It's child-like. The fact that I point it out shouldn't say anything about me.


Actually, you are belittling women by assuming that math is too hard for them, while at the same time refusing to recognize that a single number doesn't even come close to establishing risk, ignoring real numbers that don't agree with your preconceived notions, and dismissing out of hand anyone who dares to disagree with your overly-generalized generalizations (aka stereotypes) as a mindless feminist.

Math doesn't have an agenda, but you most certainly do. And it says a lot about you.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Actually, you are belittling women by assuming that math is too hard for them, ...


I haven't stated that math is too hard for ALL women. That's the problem with people who don't understand math. They can't understand probabilities. They think that the world is binary. If a group of women can't understand math, that must mean that ALL women can't understand math. If a woman has a chance at a negative outcome, that must mean that a negative outcome is certain. Nope.



> ... while at the same time refusing to recognize that a single number doesn't even come close to establishing risk, ...


Again, I have never argued that a single statistic is the only one that matters. But it gives a picture of the risk involved. And it's just stupid to insist that our hamsters can rework the world into the Utopia that we imagine it should be.



> ... and dismissing out of hand anyone who dares to disagree with your overly-generalized generalizations (aka stereotypes) as a mindless feminist.


:lol: Fair enough. We're all just special snowflakes that are unique in our own way. It's just a happy accident that the world happens to follow trends. Our brains are just far too advanced to allow for the possibility that anything can be analyzed or quantified. We'll just chalk everything up to luck. Yeah, that sounds like an intellectual approach to me. We certainly don't want to be like those mindless misogynists who use numbers, logic, and statistics to analyze the world as it is. That's how the patriarchy snares you.



> Math doesn't have an agenda, but you most certainly do. And it says a lot about you.


Yes. It says that I'm a logical person who doesn't mind analyzing the world as it is, not as I wish it were. It also says that I'm secure enough to accept the results that I get, rather than pitch a hissy fit and adopt a see no evil, hear no evil position. If only others on this thread could say the same.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Yes. It says that I'm a logical person who doesn't mind analyzing the world as it is, not as I wish it were. It also says that I'm secure enough to accept the results that I get, rather than pitch a hissy fit and adopt a see no evil, hear no evil position.


Ah, so that's what they call hurling insults and ignoring all evidence and reason these days. Who knew?

:rofl:


----------



## bagdon

Well now this 'debate' has gotten personal.... Hope OP is gleaning what she needs from this if she's still observing.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> Just...you and sam are both saying the same thing (that you are happily into women your own age) but Men's Rights advocates just think you are lying and being kind. They all want to tell themselves that THEY will remain attractive to young women FOREVER, while women will become unattractive at age 30.
> 
> I'm sorry that the Men's Rights advocates cannot see reality for what it is, but I'm sure happy men like you speak out anyway. You are the majority, they are a teeny tiny fraction of a minority. Cheers to you for being a normal, red-blooded man who is into women his own age! :smthumbup:
> 
> (which again...isn't unusual...I'm just making my snarky point)


It's telling how hostile women can be when faced with the reality that they're not all equally and permanently beautiful. Beauty fades. When I started on this thread, I wouldn't have thought that position was even remotely controversial. But, of course, I underestimated the power of the feminist hamster.

Beauty never fades. In fact, moxie supercedes beauty in attracting men. If you disagree, you must be a MRA misogynist.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Why do you keep posting that pic? Is there something significant there that we should know about other than you enjoy using "you go girl"?


----------



## PHTlump

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! Well, I don't know who these Men's Rights advocates are but they sound as rational as the tin-foil hat conspiracy guys.


As compared to the misandrists on this thread? Hokay ...



> Why in the heck would a man my age expect a 20-something to be interested in them? My daughters are younger but most of the crew I hung out with in HS have kids that age.
> 
> I had a woman a couple of months ago who is in her mid 20s hand me her phone number.


These two statements are incongruent. You can't imagine a young woman being interested in someone your age, yet it has happened to you.


----------



## ntamph

PHTlump said:


> It's telling how hostile women can be when faced with the reality that they're not all equally and permanently beautiful. Beauty fades. When I started on this thread, I wouldn't have thought that position was even remotely controversial. But, of course, I underestimated the power of the feminist hamster.
> 
> Beauty never fades. In fact, moxie supercedes beauty in attracting men. If you disagree, you must be a MRA misogynist.


Men and women start to look like **** after a while because most people don't take care of themselves. 

I'd take a fit 50 year old (they do exist!) over a lazy, airhead 25 year old any day.

My GF has a better body at 26 after a baby than most 18 year olds because she knows that health is important.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> But don't tell the Men's Right dudes about that! shhhhhh.....They are convinced I was old and haggard and no man would want a busted down old lady such as myself. Certainly not those 25 year old studs who were beating down my door.
> 
> Again....shhhh....it will be our secret.


Exactly. Anyone who argues that something TENDS to happen is actually arguing that that thing ALWAYS happens. Our feminism to English dictionary clearly defines those two words to be equivalent.

And anyone who thinks that certain tendencies can have exceptions is a misogynist, or someone who understands math and English. Which is the same thing. Shhh.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Ah, so that's what they call hurling insults and ignoring all evidence and reason these days. Who knew?
> 
> :rofl:


I understand how you could easily be confused. As a misandrist, you equate hurling insults with logic and ignoring all evidence with analysis. But, they're actually quite different.

Ah hell with it.


----------



## PHTlump

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do you keep posting that pic? Is there something significant there that we should know about other than you enjoy using "you go girl"?


It qualifies as feminist debate/reasoning. Analyzing the preferences of men and risks of women on the dating scene is sexist. Mindlessly quoting "You go girl" is empowering.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

PHTlump said:


> It qualifies as feminist debate/reasoning. Analyzing the preferences of men and risks of women on the dating scene is sexist. Mindlessly quoting "You go girl" is empowering.


did the feminists tell you this or did you find this out based on research? 

Just asking bc I personally haven't heard that phrase used in real life outside of a spice girls song.


----------



## PHTlump

ScarletBegonias said:


> did the feminists tell you this or did you find this out based on research?
> 
> Just asking bc I personally haven't heard that phrase used in real life outside of a spice girls song.


The feminists told me. All the common sense and statistics I've quoted on this thread have been denounced as oppressive misogyny. We can't think about this issue. We have to reduce it to a mindless bromide. And "you go girl" is a pretty good, mindless, empowering bromide.

Plus, posting memes is funny.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

well all of the posts have been so boring and long laden with sarcasm and bickering that I can't even process them to tell you my opinion on it. I was simply curious about your need to post that pic over and over. 

I do want to say that stats can be manipulated to suit mostly any agenda so using them on a board is somewhat useless.Also,common sense is not fact so it'll be different for everyone.What is common sense to you might be crazy condescending baiting trash talk to someone else. Maybe that's where the disconnects are popping up.I could be wrong,of course.


----------



## PHTlump

ScarletBegonias said:


> well all of the posts have been so boring and long laden with sarcasm and bickering that I can't even process them to tell you my opinion on it. I was simply curious about your need to post that pic over and over.


I thought I had only posted it twice. But both times was to communicate the same sentiment.



> I do want to say that stats can be manipulated to suit mostly any agenda so using them on a board is somewhat useless.Also,common sense is not fact so it'll be different for everyone.What is common sense to you might be crazy condescending baiting trash talk to someone else. Maybe that's where the disconnects are popping up.I could be wrong,of course.


Numbers can be confusing. And sometimes different data sets can paint different pictures. Not every time. But sometimes. But data is still more useful than simply assuming that the world works the way one wishes it did, and refusing to examine the possibility that it isn't the Utopia one imagines. That's been the disconnect on this thread.

I posted the widely acknowledged fact that younger women are more beautiful than older women. I supported that observation with numbers from a dating website that show men focus their pursuit on women younger than themselves. And, rather than discuss what that means, I have been insulted and attacked because some women wished the world was different.

Color me shocked that debating with radical feminists rapidly devolves.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

PHTlump said:


> As compared to the misandrists on this thread? Hokay ...
> 
> 
> These two statements are incongruent. You can't imagine a young woman being interested in someone your age, yet it has happened to you.


You are taking this out of context. I continued to say that when it happened to me I thought there was something wrong with this picture. I have no idea why she showed interest nor did I expect it.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

PHTlump said:


> I thought I had only posted it twice. But both times was to communicate the same sentiment.
> ah maybe I was seeing it in quotes then,my mistake
> 
> Numbers can be confusing.not really.you just have to focus. And sometimes different data sets can paint different pictures. Not every time. But sometimes. But data is still more useful than simply assuming that the world works the way one wishes it did, and refusing to examine the possibility that it isn't the Utopia one imagines. That's been the disconnect on this thread.we'll leave that one alone bc there isn't really a way to determine if ones data is entirely factual and not skewed in any way.Not that I disagree with you,it's just not a debate I'm willing to have bc it's so murky.
> 
> I posted the widely acknowledged fact that younger women are more beautiful than older women. I supported that observation with numbers from a dating website that show men focus their pursuit on women younger than themselves. And, rather than discuss what that means, I have been insulted and attacked because some women wished the world was different.that's interesting.It was always my impression men aimed at younger women bc they thought they'd get more sex or have more wild times with a younger female or she is more compliant with his wishes.younger usually equals easier to manipulate and mold. Not necessarily bc he finds younger ladies more beautiful.I'm of the opinion,no stats to support me since it's just an opinion,that women of all ages are beautiful for different reasons.Younger ladies might have that more raw sexuality that men flock to though whereas an older female might not broadcast it as much.
> 
> Color me shocked that debating with radical feminists rapidly devolves.I really wouldn't know anything about that.I'm not a feminist.I'm just this woman.


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## ntamph

I think approaching dating/finding love in a statistical way is a little sad.


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## Jellybeans

ScarletBegonias said:


> I really wouldn't know anything about that.I'm not a feminist.I'm just this woman.


Well I am a feminist and there is nothing wrong with wanting equal rights for everyone.

But that isn't what this thread is about.

The OP was wondering how hard it was to meet guys in your late 20s. It is as hard as it is at every time in your life... quality men, that is.

Using scare tactics and telling women that they will never find a good man ever past their 28th or 29th birthday is bullsh!t. It's ridiculous. I'm not sure what the agenda is in trying to do that but it is a gross miscalculation and it's wrong. 

Women don't shrivel up and die the morning they wake up on their 29th birthday. Sure, I get the biological and socialization that have an effect on society but the fact is: we all get older. (Unless you die young). Just because people, a woman, gets older, does not make her a loser and does not mean she will never ever meet another man for as long as she lives who could be good for her, good to her.

I am so sick of people propogating this madness. PHT, it seems you don't really like women. Or women who age. Or maybe you just like them to be in a display case, young forever, so you tell the young to stick whatever it is that they have --you said yourself that staying with a zero/loser was maybe better than being with no man/single (WTF kind of advice is that?!) Yes, because women should latch on to whichever Tom, D1ck or Harry appears in their 20s forevermore or else.... because that absolutely guarantees that relationship is good, will never end, or that she will never have another chance at meeting anyone again.

This way of thinking is STUPID. And it's very misogynistic.


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## Lyris

I'm a feminist. I have no issue accepting the concept that younger women (and men) are better looking in general than when they get older. I'm not one of those though, I have a better body at 41 than I did at 24.

I'd also say that women are valued primarily for their looks within society and that this is problematic for many reasons.

I think women may find it difficult to find new relationships if they are older and single, as many men do seem to want to date younger women, although still usually within 5-10 years of their age. 

I also think that many many women buck this trend and have little or no difficulty finding relationships as they age. Certainly I know many personally where this is the case. So I'd never recommend anyone stay in a sh*tty marriage in case they didn't find anyone better. 

It would be great if people could make points without throwing around condescending gifs and references to mathematics being misogynistic, which no woman in this thread has said or implied.


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## NextTimeAround

Jellybeans said:


> Well I am a feminist and there is nothing wrong with wanting equal rights for everyone.
> 
> But that isn't what this thread is about.
> 
> The OP was wondering how hard it was to meet guys in your late 20s. It is as hard as it is at every time in your life... quality men, that is.
> 
> Using scare tactics and telling women that they will never find a good man ever past their 28th or 29th birthday is bullsh!t. It's ridiculous. I'm not sure what the agenda is in trying to do that but it is a gross miscalculation and it's wrong.
> 
> Women don't shrivel up and die the morning they wake up on their 29th birthday. Sure, I get the biological and socialization that have an effect on society but the fact is: we all get older. (Unless you die young). Just because people, a woman, gets older, does not make her a loser and does not mean she will never ever meet another man for as long as she lives who could be good for her, good to her.
> 
> *I am so sick of people propogating this madness.* PHT, it seems you don't really like women. Or women who age. Or maybe you just like them to be in a display case, young forever, so you tell the young to stick whatever it is that they have --you said yourself that staying with a zero/loser was maybe better than being with no man/single (WTF kind of advice is that?!) Yes, because women should latch on to whichever Tom, D1ck or Harry appears in their 20s forevermore or else.... because that absolutely guarantees that relationship is good, will never end, or that she will never have another chance at meeting anyone again.
> 
> This way of thinking is STUPID. And it's very misogynistic.


Yeah, PHT, you may be giving some women a false sense of security. My fiancé's EA, all of 21 years younger than I, must have thought she was a shoe in compared to me. And well, that's not what happened. 

And I said, I think she was a little bit disappointed that she could not attract men whose age was closer to hers (like at least, less than 10 years age difference)

As I said in a post earlier on this thread, the OP and any other women, person even, shopping around for a partner, they should accept that they may do better or worse in different environments. And therefore become sensitive to what is going on and whether they are attracting the type that they want in whatever environment they find themselves in


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## PHTlump

ScarletBegonias said:


> we'll leave that one alone bc there isn't really a way to determine if ones data is entirely factual and not skewed in any way.Not that I disagree with you,it's just not a debate I'm willing to have bc it's so murky.


Fair enough. I acknowledge that there's no such thing as a perfect, error free, data set. But the ******* data was from *******. I think they're the best source for evaluating their own data. And I doubt they would intentionally skew the data. Yes, it could be unintentionally skewed. But I'm not sure how. The only suggestion one poster here had was that a huge number of prostitutes were posing as men and sending messages to young women to scam them. The poster had no evidence for that. And it doesn't make sense, because older women have more money than younger women. But we can set aside the data issue.



> that's interesting.It was always my impression men aimed at younger women bc they thought they'd get more sex or have more wild times with a younger female or she is more compliant with his wishes.younger usually equals easier to manipulate and mold. Not necessarily bc he finds younger ladies more beautiful.


"Why" is the issue I find murky. According to the Kinsey Institute, single women in their 30s have sex slightly more frequently than the 25-29 group. Maybe men don't know that. Although, the 25-29 group is more open to oral sex than older women. I haven't seen a source that can shed a definitive answer on the question of why men pursue younger women. It just seems that they do.



> I'm of the opinion,no stats to support me since it's just an opinion,that women of all ages are beautiful for different reasons.Younger ladies might have that more raw sexuality that men flock to though whereas an older female might not broadcast it as much.


Sure. But we can look at advertising as a decent proxy for public opinion on physical beauty. Billboard and print ads are 100% visual. Personality, education, voice, poise, and wealth don't matter because we're just looking at pictures of women. And these ads primarily consist of young women.

As another poster wrote, sex sells. And it's telling that the billions of dollars advertisers spend each year to put a pretty lady alongside their cars, food, perfume, and what have you, are used to put young women in those spots. Very seldom does one see an older woman standing in front of a car to sell it.

Now, that's not to say that physical beauty is the end-all-be-all for dating. It's not. But it's what men tend to notice first and attraction usually builds, or falters, from there. It's important. And I think it's probably one of the more significant factors explaining why men tend to pursue younger women.


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## ntamph

If you are lucky enough to still be with the same person for decades then you need to be able to look into her eyes and still see the young hottie looking back at you. If you two have a strong enough relationship then this can happen naturally.


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## Jellybeans

I never said mathemetics was mysogynistic. The idea that women have to hurry up and get 'em while they're young (the menfolk) because if not, they are going to have a sell by date and will not meet quality men and the fact that they should stay with anyone, even in a bad relationship because that is better than being alone and they won't be able to find another man; that men won't want her if she's past late 20s... is. 

But I agree physically, people do look amazing in their 20s.


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## Caribbean Man

ntamph said:


> I think approaching dating/finding love in a statistical way is a little sad.


I think this entire thread is sad ,on both sides of the gender debate, and on almost every level.

Firstly,people date for all different types of reasons, but marriage is an entirely different construct, with legal implications. Because of this, some people's choice of a spouse aren't even remotely connected to what they're really attracted to.
How do we factor that into any statistic?
And that's not the only anomaly.
To me , lots of people on this thread are confusing dating with marriage.

Another thing is that people are approaching attraction as if it were a linear , fixed commodity , when it is not , and has many infinite variables.

Lastly, some people are basing their arguments on premise of the the social construct that says both genders are the same.

Both genders are equal, both genders share many similar traits , but that doesn't make them same.

Here's an illustration.
Draw two equal intersecting circles A and B ,on a piece of paper, and it doesn't matter how much of the circles intersect each other, they are different circles. The overlapped / intersect C would be the area where circle A and circle B are the same or share commonality. It doesn't matter if the intersection C represents 90 % of both circles, they are _still _different entities.
And there are rules that govern the relationship C has with Band A.


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## Caribbean Man

Lyris said:


> I'm a feminist. * I have no issue accepting the concept that younger women (and men) are better looking in general than when they get older. I'm not one of those though, I have a better body at 41 than I did at 24.
> 
> I'd also say that women are valued primarily for their looks within society and that this is problematic for many reasons.
> 
> I think women may find it difficult to find new relationships if they are older and single, as many men do seem to want to date younger women, although still usually within 5-10 years of their age.
> 
> I also think that many many women buck this trend and have little or no difficulty finding relationships as they age. Certainly I know many personally where this is the case. So I'd never recommend anyone stay in a sh*tty marriage in case they didn't find anyone better. *


:iagree:
This^^^is exactly what I am referring to in my last post , when I said that there are many anomalies.


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## Faithful Wife

Tell it to PHT, CM.


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## Caribbean Man

I am saying that both sides of this debate are taking extreme positions.

IMO, both Lyris and Scarlet Begonias [ in her first post on pg 10 ]hit the nail squarely on it's head.

The only workable solution to dating and also marriage is to find what works best _for you._

The plain fact is , as we age logically the dating pool will shrink fo tons of different reasons for both sexes.


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## ntamph

I used to believe that women made decisions at different stages in their lives based entirely on population statistics but then I realized that I was making myself look worthless and that real love can happen at any age. My GF didn't need me and I didn't need her. We WANT each other. This is a much better feeling.


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## PHTlump

Jellybeans said:


> Using scare tactics and telling women that they will never find a good man ever past their 28th or 29th birthday is bullsh!t. It's ridiculous.


I agree. That's why I never wrote anything approaching that.



> I am so sick of people propogating this madness. PHT, it seems you don't really like women.


In general, I do like women. But I don't really like foolish women who can't understand basic English and arithmetic. You know, the kind of women who believe that a 10% chance of something happening = a 100% chance of something happening. And, when you try to point out the difference, just become indignant. I can forgive ignorance. But I can't forgive willful, indignant ignorance.



> --you said yourself that staying with a zero/loser was maybe better than being with no man/single (WTF kind of advice is that?!) Yes, because women should latch on to whichever Tom, D1ck or Harry appears in their 20s forevermore or else.... because that absolutely guarantees that relationship is good, will never end, or that she will never have another chance at meeting anyone again.


Again, that's nothing approaching what I have argued. I have acknowledged that the possibility exists that a woman may not be able to upgrade her mate on the dating scene. And people, such as yourself, howl at the misogyny of the idea that women aren't guaranteed an upgrade. That kind of thinking is stupid and childish. The only universe where nothing bad can ever happen is the Disney universe.

FWIW, the OP didn't start this thread because she had been discussing the situation with the misogyny club. She started it because her female friends and family told her that dating was harder in one's thirties than in one's twenties because the men pursued younger women. Should we accuse her female friends and family of belonging to the patriarchy?

That's why I think the best definition of misogynist is the one provided earlier in the thread. A man who tells the truth. Needless to say that, in the future, when I want to placate the misandrists among us, I will be certain to regurgitate the mindless and contradictory clap trap that you insist everyone believe. Yes, Virginia, there really is a dating scene with no risk.


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## Holland

PHTlump said:


> I agree. That's why I never wrote anything approaching that.
> 
> 
> In general, I do like women. But I don't really like foolish women who can't understand basic English and arithmetic. You know, the kind of women who believe that a 10% chance of something happening = a 100% chance of something happening. And, when you try to point out the difference, just become indignant. I can forgive ignorance. But I can't forgive willful, indignant ignorance.
> 
> 
> Again, that's nothing approaching what I have argued.* I have acknowledged that the possibility exists that a woman may not be able to upgrade her mate on the dating scene.* And people, such as yourself, howl at the misogyny of the idea that women aren't guaranteed an upgrade. That kind of thinking is stupid and childish. The only universe where nothing bad can ever happen is the Disney universe.
> 
> FWIW, the OP didn't start this thread because she had been discussing the situation with the misogyny club. She started it because her female friends and family told her that dating was harder in one's thirties than in one's twenties because the men pursued younger women. Should we accuse her female friends and family of belonging to the patriarchy?
> 
> That's why I think the best definition of misogynist is the one provided earlier in the thread. A man who tells the truth. Needless to say that, in the future, when I want to placate the misandrists among us, I will be certain to regurgitate the mindless and contradictory clap trap that you insist everyone believe. Yes, Virginia, there really is a dating scene with no risk.


It is ridiculous to say that women cannot upgrade as they get older. Men and women are aging and maturing at the same rate. Not sure what age you are but you have no clue about the every day reality of dating in the 40's. It is expected for people to move onto better relationships than the previous, people are often much more in tune with what they want as the years roll on and do not settle like younger people can do.

Seriously dude, lighten up. Sounds like you are wound up so tight that you will burst any second. Your hatred of women is not going to improve your life, you sound like a very angry man.


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## PHTlump

Holland said:


> It is ridiculous to say that women cannot upgrade as they get older. Men and women are aging and maturing at the same rate. Not sure what age you are but you have no clue about the every day reality of dating in the 40's. It is expected for people to move onto better relationships than the previous, people are often much more in tune with what they want as the years roll on and do not settle like younger people can do.
> 
> Seriously dude, lighten up. Sounds like you are wound up so tight that you will burst any second. Your hatred of women is not going to improve your life, you sound like a very angry man.


More women who lack basic reading comprehension skills.

By your estimation, a man who disputes that all women are guaranteed to upgrade their mates in the dating scene hates women. That's such an idiotic statement that I won't even bother refuting it. It mocks itself.


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## Lyris

He's not saying they can't upgrade. He's saying the possibility exists that they will find it difficult. Which is fair enough in my opinion.


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## lucy mulholland

I lost this thread for a while but I have to chime in. Regardless of the opinions about whether or not it's easier to "find a man" (or a woman) when you're older...

A misogynist is not a man who tells the truth. Seriously. I can see how you'd want to frame it that way but to say all statements that insult, hurt or otherwise undermine women are the truth is just wrong. And misogynistic 

The truth hurts on both sides of the dating game, and yeah, that means risk. But no arrogant blanket statements, please.


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## Holland

Lyris said:


> He's not saying they can't upgrade. He's saying the possibility exists that they will find it difficult. Which is fair enough in my opinion.


He is saying that they will find it difficult because women aren't hot as they get older. This isn't the case at all. Men and women both age. 

The reason some people don't upgrade is not because they can't, it is because they haven't found out who they are, what they are worth and keep making the same mistakes. It has very little to do with age and aging.


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## PHTlump

lucy mulholland said:


> A misogynist is not a man who tells the truth. Seriously. I can see how you'd want to frame it that way but to say all statements that insult, hurt or otherwise undermine women are the truth is just wrong. And misogynistic


I never wrote that all statements that insult, hurt, or otherwise undermine women are the truth. But that's not what I've done. I've simply told the truth about the existence of risk in the dating scene. That was my only blanket statement. Risk exists.  And that is why I'm being accused of misogyny.

Sadly, by accusing me of misogyny for such innocent statements, my attackers are portraying women as too weak and fragile to handle simple truths.


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## ScarletBegonias

Jellybeans said:


> Well I am a feminist and there is nothing wrong with wanting equal rights for everyone.
> 
> But that isn't what this thread is about.
> 
> .


I can't get on board w the modern stereotype of feminists so I don't give myself the feminist label. Most people don't have an clue what feminism stands for anyway so the label is growing pointless. But equality,I'm all for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump

Holland said:


> The reason some people don't upgrade is not because they can't, it is because they haven't found out who they are, what they are worth and keep making the same mistakes. It has very little to do with age and aging.


The poor hamster gave his last bit of furious effort with that insane rationalization. Tragic.


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## Lyris

Can you stop with the condescending bullsh*t gifs? They just muddy your points.

Unless your whole point is just that women are fluffy and stupid. In which case, carry on and I can disregard your posts.


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## PHTlump

Lyris said:


> Can you stop with the condescending bullsh*t gifs? They just muddy your points.


 Sorry. Just having some fun.



> Unless your whole point is just that women are fluffy and stupid. In which case, carry on and I can disregard your posts.


My point isn't that ALL women are fluffy and stupid. But some of the women on this thread certainly qualify.


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## Holland

PHTlump said:


> The poor hamster gave his last bit of furious effort with that insane rationalization. Tragic.


So the concept went over your head then.

And yeah the gifs don't do your cause any good, very immature.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> Lyris said:
> 
> 
> 
> He's not saying they can't upgrade. He's saying the possibility exists that they will find it difficult. Which is fair enough in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> He is saying that they will find it difficult because women aren't hot as they get older. This isn't the case at all. Men and women both age.
> 
> The reason some people don't upgrade is not because they can't, it is because they haven't found out who they are, what they are worth and keep making the same mistakes. It has very little to do with age and aging.
Click to expand...

Completely agree.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## PHTlump

Holland said:


> So the concept went over your head then.
> 
> And yeah the gifs don't do your cause any good, very immature.


Well, English wasn't working, so I thought maybe you could understand pictures better.


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## Holland

PHTlump said:


> Well, English wasn't working, so I thought maybe you could understand pictures better.


I have a wicked SOH but you aren't funny at all. And I know that I am not stupid, I also have good self esteem so your attempts to try and undermine me are futile. But keep going, bullying seems to be your outlet.

If you ever want to have a proper discussion about this issue then I'm in because it is interesting to me and I have plenty of life experience, all of it counters what you are saying here.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

PHTlump said:


> Holland said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the concept went over your head then.
> 
> And yeah the gifs don't do your cause any good, very immature.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, English wasn't working, so I thought maybe you could understand pictures better.
Click to expand...

Dude, really? Are you trying to get banned? You know it is entirely possible to engage in a debate without hurling insults.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Holland

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Going by your posts JSGW I assume you are a good man with a high IQ and EQ. Glad you understood what I was trying to express.


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## PHTlump

Holland said:


> And I know that I am not stupid, I also have good self esteem so your attempts to try and undermine me are futile.


I don't know how intelligent you are. You are missing the point of elementary English words. You equate SOME to ALL and have no concept of what risk means. That's not the argument of an intelligent mind.



> But keep going, bullying seems to be your outlet.


If you think I've been bullying you, I think you can add that word to the ones you don't understand.



> If you ever want to have a proper discussion about this issue then I'm in because it is interesting to me and I have plenty of life experience, all of it counters what you are saying here.


Another word you should brush up on is ANECDOTE. Dismissing a statistical argument because something different happened one time is logically invalid.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Completely agree.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_
> 
> 
> 
> Going by your posts JSGW I assume you are a good man with a high IQ and EQ. Glad you understood what I was trying to express.
Click to expand...

Now flattery will get you everywhere 

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## PHTlump

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Dude, really? Are you trying to get banned? You know it is entirely possible to engage in a debate without hurling insults.


You think it's incivil to respond to accusations of sexism and misogyny? What is the polite way to respond to gross misrepresentations of one's arguments, "You go girl?"


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## JustSomeGuyWho

PHTlump said:


> JustSomeGuyWho said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, really? Are you trying to get banned? You know it is entirely possible to engage in a debate without hurling insults.
> 
> 
> 
> You think it's incivil to respond to accusations of sexism and misogyny? What is the polite way to respond to gross misrepresentations of one's arguments, "You go girl?"
Click to expand...

So you choose to escalate the disagreement with personal attacks? Attack the argument, not the person.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## PHTlump

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> So you choose to escalate the disagreement with personal attacks? Attack the argument, not the person.


You see mindless accusations of misogyny as an argument, rather than an attack?


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## Created2Write

I don't understand how he's even still posting.


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## Created2Write

ntamph said:


> I think approaching dating/finding love in a statistical way is a little sad.


THANK YOU! I have been trying, and failing, to say this exact thing from the beginning. It's why the risks involved in finding love, imo, aren't a big deal, nor are any statistics offered saying a certain age group faces more risks. What matters is that the person looking for a new relationship does so wisely and safely, especially when coming out of an abusive relationship like the OP.


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