# Am I supposed to constantly suffer



## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Not sure where to start the novel of my relationship to date....and apologies about the length of this....

Where I am at is that I feel that at being 33 years old and my wife being 29, we are wasting away the best years of our lives in an unhappy relationship with issues that we just cant seem to resolve or move on from....I don't want my marriage to end at all but am lost with how I can turn things around without both of us letting go of baggage. 

My wife and I met via an online dating site and dated for 3 months before I proposed to her, and then got married a further 1 year later. We have now been married for almost 1.5 years.She comes from a conservative ethnic minority family, and i come from a liberal/conservative ethinc minority.

If i were to try and summarise the issues in our relationship, i would boil it down to these items:

- Put simply, my wife is a person who looks at things glass half empty. There is always something she is not happy about whether it be people or things, i.e me, my family, her work colleagues, everything about how our new house has been built, or her family. She is a constant moaner and complainer and has a pessimistic view on things. Since childhood she always has been the one in her family to get angry/throw tantrums about things in an instant and ready to blame everyone else about everything, believing at all times she is right about everything and noone has the right to show or argue when she isnt.


Since marriage, I dont think there has been a period of more than 7 days in a row where she has been happy with me. She believes that i am not the person i was before marriage and that therefore i have cheated her because I have changed. Changes accused are that im not nice to her anymore, im not happy with her, i dont love her, not as tolerant to her tantrums, I dont do anything for her and I dont support her. Situational and environment changes such as job change, living together, building a house, completing my Masters whilst working fulltime are irrelevant to her and she expected me to stay the same and giver her 24/7 attention. In regards to doing things for her, she said she would only want a diamond ring of 1 carat, i got this. She only would ever want to stay in 5 star hotels for traveling and she has been like this as a kid and her dad has done it for her, so for our honeymoon and 1 trip since it has all been 5 star. For long distance she said she cant fly economy so i had to do business class flights everywhere for our honeymoon. She has asked me to apply for jobs on her behalf, write cv's, apply for her masters, actually DO the Masters on her behalf (its online so i am doing all the readings, research and assignments, she hasnt even spent 20 minutes on the entire course in the last 2 months since 'she' started, im doing everything even though its Science and im an IT guy), she likes expensive clothes so i buy her that constantly, i drive us everywhere, i do the washing/drying, food preperation, cleaning, vaccuming in the house (her excuse is she gets tired from work but we both work fulltime), I hand her her meals on her plate to her and take them to clean from her. Gifts i buy mostly make her angry and i have to get vouchers. When i dont buy gifts i get told i dont care about her anymore.

The fact that her personality to ME has completely changed from listening and being interested in everything I had to say before marriage, to now not caring about me or my thoughts, not respecting me, ignoring what I have to say or cutting me from speaking, and regularly being openly verbally abusive to me doesnt matter to her as she says she hasnt chagned, and if she has changed its because of things i or my family have done to her.

Before marriage when she would get angry she would simply stay quiet or tell me about it in an angry but polite manner. I would constantly apologise (even when not my fault) and she would get over things. Now, her anger is expressed through yelling, swearing, verbally attacking me by calling me all sorts of things such as a lier, cheat, fat, ugly, sissy, mommas boy, pervert, gay, and tells me to go back to my parents or go f my ex or a prostitute etc. Things I did 5-10 years before we met that I shared with her in confidence are portrayed back to me with her accusing me of my bad character regardless that since we met I never did any of those things. I constantly told im a f this or f that or to f off etc etc. I have NOT ONCE in our entire relationship sworn at her or attacked her personally, yet she does this at ease and on an almost daily level. 

These attacks occur instantly anywhere anytime, in the middle of normal conversations. I get hurt by these attacks which she doesnt care about as says it serves me right and i have hurt her so i deserve it. Or when I try to respond to her attacks I get told im either arguing or defending myself. If i try and argue back when she is completely wrong it escalates to the point where she threatens to harm herself and is literally screaming...so I have no choice but to stay quiet (to which i then get told im just a mute). So it's because im so mentally impacted by these attacks and look sad/unhappy and am not smiling, she says that I have changed. It doesnt matter to her that I look and feel like that because of the intensity of what i get from her, and doesnt matter that I of course do smile and laugh at other times - she ignores the good times and gives blanket negative statements about me since marraige. 


6 months in the marriage for 1 month she was constantly saying she wanted a divorce but never actually went and did that. Now she says that she is just waiting for me to kick her out as she feels she can tell that I hate her and hate the way she looks and all I know is how to argue and fight and I dont love her. On the 2 occasions she walked out with her bags for 2 days, she accused me of throwing her out of the house when all that happened was me trying to stand up for myself when she was accusing me for things I never did...

She constantly tells me she doesnt love me, has no feelings for me and hates me and my family. When she is angry, I get 20-30 txts and emails at work from her that are 1-2 pages each all just abusing and complaining about me....

We dont really talk about anything either. When we are fine, we just talk about our house (we built it ourselves) or movies or her family. She hates talking about my job, music, current events, sports, tv shows, my family. She doesnt like any of my friends so I have only met them twice in the 1.5 years of marraige. In weekends we just go visit her family or stay home or do house shopping. She doesnt like going out for movies or drives as says we cant afford it.Even though we can actually afford to go out a little she says that we cant afford it....the reason we built a new home is because she refused to stay in a rental long term, didnt want to live in an old house that was lived in before, didnt want to live with parents, and didnt like designs of brand new already built houses..,.so i had no other choice but to build,...and because she has certain demands in how the house needs to be built, it has meant we need to make reeasonable living sacrifices to be able to afford this....not unliveable but she looks at it as black and white and now says to me that if i couldnt afford to build why did i do that....she doesnt see that it was her who didnt want it any other way. She also wants everything in the house to be new and the house completely filled up straight away, and doesnt want any of MY old stuff in the house even though shes happy to bring her old items...

Intimacy is very lacking in our relationship....maybe 1-2 times a month and its never been 'perfect' if you know what i mean. She seems to lose interest v quickly or doesnt let me go all the way. She NEVER kisses me and always turns to the side when i try to kiss her good morning/night/bye for work, likewise with hugs...

The only reason she says she stays with me is because of her family and she doesnt want to upset them. Although at times she does threaten to do things such as move overseas or find other guys who will respect her or treat her like a woman etc etc. 

When I suggested counselling she went into a fit of rage saying why would she expose her laundry to a stranger, and why would she listen to a stranger and accused me of not knowing what to do and not being a real man. 

I have since been to personal counselling when thigns have been at their worst in secret, but havent really found this to be much helpful as the counsellor acknowledged it was hard to suggest anything without her involement. 

SO WHY DO I CONTINUE TO STAY YOU ASK?

- When she is happy...my heart melts....she looks like an innocent girl with cute chubby cheeks and sparkling big eyes and I just want to be with her forever and be her partner, protector and life companion.
- When she is happy, she is thoughtful about me, by telling her family to give me food, or when away from me, asking about me.
- I am very attched to her family and feel like they are my own blood sisters, brother, and mother/father too. 
- I still love and adore my wife very much
- Because of my bond with my wife and her family, I feel that If i decided to end this relationhip I would never forgive myself for letting them all down. 
- I feel scared that my wife's life would be completely shattered without me with life longing impacts. 



BUT 

I just dont know how much more i can sustain of the ups and down and constant abuse and baggage that she just refuses to let go...im already mentally impacted so much, my personality to my loved ones has changed, to her has changed, and my work gets impacted too...however I just cant seem to bring myself to say to her that if she is so unhappy with me and her relationship that we should take a break and live apart, or seperate.....

What do I do?


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

If this isn't a glaring case of Bordeline Personality Disorder (BPD), I don't know what is. You've pretty much listed every single symptom of it to a T in your wife. Do some searching here on BPD. Look up forum user Uptown. He's extremely knowledgeable about BPD...he was married to one for 15 years. I'll try to get more info later, unless Uptown jumps in first. Educate yourself, but don't try to fix her. You can't. She sounds terribly disturbed. You are already suffering severely from her instability. Don't bury your head in the sand about what's going on. Get help ASAP.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

NeedHelp, I agree with Waking that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, verbal abuse, always being "The Victim," rapid flips between loving you and hating you, blame-shifting, black-white thinking, and controlling behavior -- are classic traits of BPD.

Of course, you cannot determine whether your W's BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the criteria for having full-blown BPD. Only a professional can do that. Yet, even when the traits fall well below that diagnostic threshold, they can make your life miserable and undermine a marriage. Moreover, there is a world of difference between _making a diagnosis_ and simply _spotting the warning signs_. 

Before you graduated high school, NeedHelp, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur if you take time to learn what red flags to look for. There is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and always being "The Victim."


needhelp66 said:


> My wife is a person who looks at things glass half empty. There is always something she is not happy about whether it be people or things.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), she has had an emptiness inside since early childhood that has caused her to be very unhappy. Trying to fill that emptiness and neediness is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. It is an impossible task.


> Since childhood she always has been the one in her family to get angry/throw tantrums about things in an instant and ready to blame everyone else about everything.


Like I said, if she has moderate to strong BPD traits, they arose in early childhood. The current belief of the psychiatric community is that strong BPD traits likely are caused by genetics and/or abuse or abandonment in early childhood. The result is that the BPDer never matures emotionally. Instead, she is stuck with the emotional development of a four year old (unless in the very unlikely event that she decides to undergo several years of intensive therapy). This means that, for ego defenses, she must rely on those primitive defenses that young children use. These include denial, projection, black-white thinking, magical thinking, and temper tantrums.


> Since marriage, I dont think there has been a period of more than 7 days in a row where she has been happy with me.


A BPDer's self image is so fragile that, to the extent she has any ego at all, it consists of the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." She therefore will remain with you only as long as you continue to "validate" that false self image. Significantly, there are only two ways you can do this.

The first way -- as you saw during the courtship -- was to be "The Savior," which implies of course that she must be "The Victim" or you would not be trying so hard to save her. But she never really wanted to be saved. Rather, she only wanted validation of her victim status. If you doubt that, consider what she did every time you pulled her from the raging seas: as soon as you turned your head, she would jump right back into the water.

The second way of validating her victim status is to be "The Perpetrator," the role you've played mostly since about six months into your marriage. You are relegated to playing this role because, as soon as her infatuation with you evaporated, she could no longer see you consistently as her "soul mate" and savior. Hence, the only way she can sustain her false self image is to blame you for every misfortune and mistake (real or imagined) that befalls her.

Importantly, if your W is a BPDer, she likely does genuinely believe that you are the cause of all misfortunes. To protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality, her subconscious projects all painful thoughts and feelings onto YOU. 

Because that projection occurs entirely in the subconscious, she is able to consciously believe that it is true. This is why a BPDer will routinely have such outrageous accusations coming out of her mouth that you will simply marvel that any adult can say such things while holding a straight face.


> Situational and environment changes... are irrelevant to her.


Because a BPDer has little control over her emotions, she frequently experiences intense feelings. These feelings are so intense, and she is so emotionally immature, that she will not challenge them intellectually. Instead, she will accept the feelings as "facts." If you challenge her about it, her subconscious mind will fabricate one absurd rationalization after the other. And, after you've heard several of them, she will circle back to the absurdity she started with.


> She expected me to stay the same and give her 24/7 attention.


Like any small child, an adult BPDer feels entitled to constant attention -- on the phone if not in person. And, because a BPDer has no strong sense of who she is, she hates to be in a room all by herself (because there really is no "self" to keep her company).


> She said she would only want a diamond ring of 1 carat, i got this. She only would ever want to stay in 5 star hotels for traveling and she has been like this as a kid.


Like a young child, a BPDer will adore you while you are handing her the toys -- and will flip, in seconds, to hating you when you take one of them away.


> She says ... if she has changed its because of things i or my family have done to her.... She doesnt like any of my friends.


Like an other abuser, a BPDer will try to isolate you away from all of your friends and family members. This is done to make it easier to control every aspect of your private life. BPDers are very controlling because they have a great fear of abandonment. Because a BPDer is filled with self loathing and shame, she lives in the fear that you will abandon her as soon as you realize that she is not whom she seems.


> Her anger is expressed through yelling, swearing, verbally attacking me by calling me all sorts of things such as a lier, cheat, fat, ugly, sissy, mommas boy, pervert, gay,....


The primary hallmark of strong BPD traits is the ability to rapidly flip from loving a spouse to hating him. That is, a BPDer flips from "splitting you white" to "splitting you black" and can do so in a few seconds.


> She looks at it as black and white....


Because a BPDer never developed an integrated sense of self, she is extremely uncomfortable with ambiguities, uncertainties, mixed feelings, and other grey areas. She therefore will shoehorn everyone into a black or white box, categorizing them as "all good" or "all bad." And, in a few seconds, she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other based solely on a minor statement or infraction.


> Things I did 5-10 years before we met that I shared with her in confidence are portrayed back to me with her accusing me of my bad character.


In order to validate their false self image of being "The Victim," BPDers will maintain a mental list of every infraction you ever did. And, during the most mundane of arguments, they will pull out the entire list. It therefore is a BIG mistake to tell a BPDer of indecresions you did in your youth. Because BPDers are very vindictive while splitting you black, they will perceive of you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.


> These attacks occur instantly anywhere anytime, in the middle of normal conversations.


With a BPDer, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. A BPDer has been carrying that anger deep inside since early childhood. Hence, all you have to do is say or do some trivial thing to TRIGGER the anger that is always there. This is why BPDers can explode into rages at the slightest provocation.


> 6 months in the marriage for 1 month she was constantly saying she wanted a divorce but never actually went and did that.


It is common for a BPDer to often tell her H that she hates him and wants to leave him -- but to remain in the relationship. As I said, BPDers are fearful of abandonment and hate to be alone. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is called _I Hate You, Don't Leave Me._


> Now she says that she is just waiting for me to kick her out as she feels she can tell that I hate her... and I dont love her.


That likely is the abandonment fear I've been talking about. You would be greatly mistaken, however, if you believed that you could calm her down by drawing close to love her. By doing so, you will trigger her other great fear: the engulfment she gets during intimacy. Because a BPDer has a fragile sense of self, she feels suffocated and dominated by her partner's strong personality during intimacy. Indeed, she may feel like she is evaporating into thin air, ceasing to exist. She therefore will create an argument -- over nothing at all -- to push you away.

The problem, then, is that a BPDer's abandonment fear and engulfment fear lie on the VERY SAME spectrum. Hence, as you back away from one fear, you are unavoidably drawing closer to triggering the OTHER fear. Like you, I spent 15 years trying to find the Goldilocks position, where I was not too close (to trigger the engulfment fear) and not too far away (to trigger the abandonment fear). Sadly, such a midpoints solution does not exist.


> She hates talking about my job, music, current events, sports, tv shows, my family.


The irony, of course, is that those were the very things that she loved to talk about during the infatuaton period. Because a BPDer lacks a strong sense of self, she has been emulating other peoples' personalities and preferences since early childhood -- as a way of fitting in and being loved. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, she almost certainly was mirroring your personality and likes so perfectly during the courtship period that you both were convinced you had met your "soul mate."


> Intimacy is very lacking in our relationship....maybe 1-2 times a month.


As I said, if she has strong BPD traits, her ego is too weak for her to be able to tolerate intimacy very long. She will start to feel engulfed and suffocated, needing to push you away by starting an argument. This is why, with BPDers, the very _worst _fights usually occur immediately after the very _best _of times (e.g., after a great weekend or an intimate evening spent together). My exW, for example, usually would start a fight about 2 or 3 days into an otherwise-great vacation.


> When I suggested counselling she went into a fit of rage.


In the USA, there are many excellent treatment programs available for BPDers. It is rare for BPDers to take advantage of them. Indeed, I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers has the self awareness and ego strength required to stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> When she is happy...my heart melts....she looks like an innocent girl with cute chubby cheeks and sparkling big eyes.


When a high functioning BPDer is behaving well, she is very VERY good. She will exhibit a vulnerablity and purity of emotion that otherwise is seen only in young children. It therefore is not surprising that the world's two most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both were BPDers, if their biographers are to be believed. Like you, I've found that BPDers are very easy to fall in love with.


> I just want to be with her forever and be her partner, protector and life companion.


If your W has strong BPD traits, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like I am -- or you would not have stayed with her for nearly 3 years. If so, your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). Indeed, you probably find that you do not feel loved unless the person also desperately needs you.


> I feel scared that my wife's life would be completely shattered without me with life longing impacts.


If she has strong BPD traits, your enabling behavior likely is harming her, not helping her -- by destroying her opportunities to have to confront her issues and learn how to manage them. It therefore is important that a BPDer be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. This means you should stop walking on eggshells around her. It likely is harmful to both of you. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._ As long as you keep allowing her to throw hissy fits and temper fits -- and GETTING AWAY WITH IT -- she will have no incentive to grow up.


> I have since been to personal counselling when things have been at their worst in secret, but havent really found this to be much helpful as the counsellor acknowledged it was hard to suggest anything without her involvement.


I suggest you see another counselor. Specifically, I suggest you see a _clinical psychologist _(not a MC) -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


> What do I do?


I suggest that, while you are waiting for an appointment with a psychologist, you read about BPD traits to see if most sound very familiar. Please remember that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the nine BPD traits. At low levels, these traits have survival value. 

They become a problem only when they are so strong that they distort our perception of other peoples' intentions, thereby undermining our close LTRs. At issue, then, is NOT whether your W has the nine BPD traits, Of course she does. We all do. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder."

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I certainly don't know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot the warning signs if you will read about them -- and seek professional guidance. 

An easy place to start reading is my description of these traits at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I am sure that there are many TAM members -- including Waking and me -- who would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, NeedHelp.


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## minimix (Mar 12, 2013)

i think you are a saint.... you say at the very end that you do not want to let her or her family down but in the process you are letting yourself down...
in 10 years time are you going to look back and say 'i'm so pleased i didn't let her family down' or 'i'm so glad i got out when i did'
can you imagine being with her for another 10 years??
good luck


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Hi all 

Thanks for your replies, especially Uptown for providing such a though provoking response detailing my examples to BPD behaviour traits. 

Trying to fill that emptiness and neediness is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun. It is an impossible task.
Quote:

Uptown, you say that I should learn about BPD and the traits that my wife has...i have skimmed through the wiki and the traits you explain are pretty self explanatory and logical....will certainly look into researching a bit further....

I do wonder though how useful this is all going to be if as you say it is an impossible task for her behavior to change or find a cure if she herself refuses to
a) believe she has a problem 

b) even the slightest hint that im trying to say she has a problem will cause hell to break loose and 

c) she refuses to talk to anyone about our issues ( which i regret doing when i approached her family for help when she was constantly telling me she was going to divorce me - it made things worse with her accusing me of backstabbing her and gossiping about her to her family and putting them against her) and as mentioned counselling invoked a terrible response. 

If your suggesting that i learn about BPD traits in order to change my approach to her, then isnt that still not really rectifying the situation but making me walk on eggshells even more?? 

Couple of other things to mention, not sure if it changes thigns but:

How she is to me isnt how she is to others. 
-To friends/work colleagues she is a very shy introverted indivdual. She does constantly complain about her work mates to me though. 
- To her mother and sisters she almost seems normal except for getting annoyed quicker then others in her family would at things. She adores and idolizes her father and everytghing he does and says. She adores her little brother.
- She completely despises my family. A lot of this is because of what they did and in some ways i feel they are responsible for a lot of her behaviour as she seems to have been deeply impacted by it. E.G My mum thinking of herself as being superior to her mom, and it being noticed by mum ignoring hers, giving angry stares (when my mum thinks its not noticeable but it actually is) , things that have been said around her family not being able to afford things, etc. My wife has been seriosuly impacted by my mum and just the mention of her brings my wife into anger. 

Today after not talking about my parents for months she said that i could bring them to our new home and she will go out. I said i would like her to be there. That set her off....for the entire 30 min drive to work, 5 novels of emails to me all day...with her saying i dont care about her and shes only my slave and living according to my needs and she doesnt want to be constantly insulted.

She's emailing me constantly today asking me to make it clear that i want to leave her and that i want to marry someone else because she doesnt want to waste her life with me and is sick of our relationship and i dont behave as a husband as i support my parents rather then her and i just am taking revenge on her because i believe she is the culprit and my parents are innocent.

In some ways she is right, i am getting to the stage where im thinking why should i keep suffering when im being constantly accused (she claims its the other way). I do often dream about what it would be like being single again or with someone else who is actually happier....but then my love for her and her family and my values of a marriage keep me staying....im definitely not happy however i dont want to let them down and be left with guilt for doing so....


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Just looked at the 9 traits, and a lot do not seem to fit....or am i not looking carefully enough?


(1. frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. NOTE: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)

I guess i can understand if this is relevant where she doesnt like me spending time with anyone aside from her and constantly complains i never give her time...


( 2. a pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships
characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation)

Since things started to go bad i havent seen her idolize me really...i rarely get affection and only sometimes appreciation and encouragement. Its mostly devaluation. 


( 3. identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self)

She doesnt like her appearance and blames me for making her english accent worse (not true) or not helping her to make it better and claims i refused to do so (incorrect). 


4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating).

She has NONE of these and in facts says im too impulsive in my spending. But then she does want a new house and everything inside it to be brand new within the 1 month we are living in it and refuses to live in an empty home or have any empty space. All furniture , cutlery, whiteware and landscaping has to be there now, has to be new, has to be high class. 


5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or
self-mutilating behavior

This only was there until December. Now she says im not worth it. 

6. affect instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria [unpleasant mood], irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

This is certainly there....her bad mood can last days and days.....

7. chronic feelings of emptiness

Im assuming that an unfullfilling marriage and husband fit into this as im not perfect and she expected me to be perfect and the same as i was before marriage. 

8. inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

Certainly there as iv indicated!

9. transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms [i.e., the affect does not match the emotional tone, etc.]

she certainly believes in a marriage that should be perfect , that a husband and a real man would never need to be told what to do, would never do things wrong in the first place, would never argue or fight with his wife, would always support her in front of others even when she is completely wrong (and being aggresive about her stance)


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> Uptown, you say that I should learn about BPD.... *I do wonder though how useful this is all going to be... if she herself refuses to believe she has a problem.*


NeedHelp, it is very unlikely that the BPD information will be helpful to her. Nor is it likely to assist you in helping her. As I said, if she is a BPDer, you cannot fix her. She must do that herself and she is unwilling to do it. Moreover, it likely would be counter-productive to tell her of your suspicions because she almost certainly would project the allegation back onto you. And, because projection occurs in the subconscious, she likely would be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that YOU are the one with strong BPD traits.

The point of your acquiring the BPD information, then, is primarily to help _yourself_, not your W. If she has strong BPD traits, there are several reasons why this information likely will be very beneficial to you.
*
One reason *is that your being able to understand her behavior will help you realize that the toxicity in your marriage is not something SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. That is, you are not a _victim _of the toxicity but, instead, a _participant_. 

* A second reason* is the high likelihood that any man willingly tolerating such abuse for two years has moderate to strong codependency traits. The result is that you have great difficulty knowing where YOUR problems end and those of your W begin. You two are so emotionally enmeshed with each other that you are unable to see your own problems, i.e., your contributions to the toxicity. And, after walking on eggshells for two years, you may even have difficulty remembering what the "Old You" was like. 

Having such weak personal boundaries makes it extremely difficult for you to see your contribution to the toxicity without first understanding and subtracting out the contribution made by your W. Absent that understanding, you will continue to misperceive your role as "just trying to help" instead of seeing yourself as the enabler you are (and that I was for 15 years).

*A third reason* is to answer your own question, _"Am I supposed to constantly suffer?" -- _the title of your thread. The answer is that you've always had the power to stop your suffering ANY TIME YOU WANT TO. What has prevented you from doing so is that your personal boundaries are so low that you became enmeshed with your W's issues, thereby losing sight of your own issue (codependency).

*A fourth reason* is to see the addictive nature of your relationship. When our partners have strong BPD traits, we codependents find such relationships to be highly addictive. This is so because the hateful, spiteful periods are intermixed with ecstatic periods, during which we are adored and regarded as white knights who can fix anything (a codependent's notion of heaven). This bouncing back and forth between enraptured highs and painful withdrawals is very similar to the behavior of people addicted to heroine, alcohol, and gambling. Hence, telling us to "simply walk away" is as useful as telling a drunk to simply toss his bottle away.

*A fifth reason* is to avoid repeating your mistakes elsewhere. In the unlikely event that we codependents would walk away from a BPDer, there is a good chance we will throw ourselves into the arms of another woman just like her if we do not take the time to learn the red flags (i.e., to understand how and why BPDers behave like they do). I have a friend, for example, who is now dating the third woman (in a row) who exhibits emotional instability and other strong BPD traits.

Because we are caregivers to a fault, we are strongly attracted to anyone projecting a strong sense of vulnerability. For us, vulnerability is as attractive as catnip is to cats. And BPDers, forever thinking of themselves as victims, are masters at projecting vulnerability.


> If your suggesting that i learn about BPD traits in order to change my approach to her, then isnt that still not really rectifying the situation...?


 My goal is not to change how you treat _her_ but, rather, how you treat _yourself._ As codependents, you and I are caregivers to a fault. Our problem is NOT our wanting to help others. Rather, it is our willingness to keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so. 

Hence, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to us. That idea is against our family values, our religion, our morals -- indeed, is against every fiber of our being. There is no way we will abandon a sick loved one. Yet, if someone explains to us how we are not really helping -- and explains that we are, in fact, likely harming the loved one with our enabling behavior -- we can free ourselves of the guilt and sense of obligation that keeps us mired in the toxic relationship. As you said, _" I dont want to let them down and be left with guilt for doing so."_

If the BPD information accurately describes your W's behavior, it will help free you from the guilt by giving you several important insights: (a) your W's dysfunctional behavior likely originated in childhood and thus is beyond your ability to fix, (b) your efforts to comfort and calm her are counter-productive because they prevent her from facing her issues and learning how to control them, and (c) this "enabling" behavior harms her by allowing her to continue acting like a child.


> you say it is an impossible task for her behavior to change or find a cure


No, I said "it is an impossible task" for you to fix her, make her happy, or convince her that you really love her. If she is a BPDer, she is capable of changing her own behavior if she chooses to work hard in therapy for many years. But it is rare for a BPDer -- perhaps 1 in 100 -- to make that choice. As to her not being able "to find a cure," that is true. Because BPD is not a disease, there is no disease to cure.


> How she is to me isnt how she is to others. -To friends/work colleagues she is a very shy introverted individual.


The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, which means they usually get along fine with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. None of those people pose a threat to her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> Just looked at the 9 traits, and a lot do not seem to fit....or am i not looking carefully enough?


In order to be diagnosed as having full-blown BPD, a person only has to meet five of the nine traits. You've already said, in this one post, that she strongly exhibits 4 of the traits. And, in your other posts, you seem to be describing one or two of the others. This is why I suggested you read my post at the link I provided above. It explains what these nine traits look like when you are living with them on a day to day basis.


> 4. impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). ... *She has NONE of these.*


Really? Granted, she says that you are "too impulsive" in spending decisions that YOU make. But what about spending decisions that she makes? What about her insistence on a custom-designed house, expensive clothes, the 1-caret diamond, business-class flights, and 5-star hotels. Perhaps I am mistaken but you seem to be describing a woman who has little impulse control and is quite reckless (i.e., acts without considering the logical consequences). You state, for example, that:These attacks occur instantly anywhere anytime.... If i try and argue back when she is completely wrong it escalates to the point where she threatens to harm herself and is literally screaming.​


> 5. recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats .... This only was there until December.


Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way is to observe that, just a year into the marriage, her suicidal threats HAD ALREADY STARTED. Remember, "recurrent" does not mean it has to happen every few months.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Really? Granted, she says that you are "too impulsive" in spending decisions that YOU make. But what about spending decisions that she makes? What about her insistence on a custom-designed house, expensive clothes, the 1-caret diamond, business-class flights, and 5-star hotels. Perhaps I am mistaken but you seem to be describing a woman who has little impulse control and is quite reckless (i.e., acts without considering the logical consequences). You state, for example, that:


I guess I intrepret impuslive as being sudden, rather than a general desire of everything needeing to be grandeur/high fi....

Yes I read through both your links and I guess if the traits are seen via the examples given then she certainly exhibits a lot of them....

I went and got the book Stop Walking on Eggshells...almost on Chapter 3.....just keen to see how i can stop doing things that will light/defuse her flame of anger and devaluation as just so tired and sad that we are 80% unhappy most of the time....

So cant wait to get to the part in the book that shows how i need to change my behaviour....scared of how this will be taken though....i have been given the silent treatment face-face for 3 days now, but at the same time am getting emails at work...here is an excerpt from one of hers - iv had to improve grammer to make it readable and also provided some explanation/facts in brackets where appropriate:


------------------------------------
"Also you never talked to me you just married me for your needs…also you talk better english and proper language with others and with me you have an (ethnic) accent (at home we both talk with ethnic accents....she never complained before marriage about this, but suddenly into the marriage this became an issue...initially when i offered to speak in an accent as i do at work she said no...but now when she sees i talk to her younger siblings with the accent she says i purposely talk in the ethnic accent with her to dumb her down...it doesnt matter that i say i talk to her like that because im comfortable talking that way to her...doesn't matter if i offer to change now either)

..with me you show grumpy face and walk away when I am talking while with other girls you stand n gawk at them and concentrate what they are saying, with me what i say never gets in ur ears (This is only based off 1 incident and that too a couple of days ago only....i have been faithful to her the entire marriage.....we went to a mall in the weekend and bought something...she said she was going to another store, i was talking to the sales girl who was wrapping the item for me. She apparently was watching me talk to her and smiling/laughing, and apparently was calling out to me - she was outside the store and the store was playing music so i couldnt hear her. When i came out she was livid and accused me of being attracted to the sales girl, staring at her chest (i do admit i did this!) and flirting with her (i didnt do this) and that i should have asked for the girl to hurry up and get the item wrapped and walk away as thats what she thinks i would do if it was a guy. She started saying i wanted to sleep with that girl and to leave her alone. i got annoyed and said stop saying useless things which arent even true and walked a little away from her. she went into a further rage and she clawed her nails into my hand to cause slight blood to come out and leave heavy marks. she told me to get lost and if i didnt she would call the cops. i said call them, to which she faked calling them and i said i could she is wasnt talking to anyone. It was a horrible drive home with her yelling at me all the way. I guess i was wrong to talk to the salesgirl so openly and maybe i was subconsciously flirting with her...but is that so wrong as its just smalltalk in a store and would never cheat on my wife!?! )


.... If you really loved me you would not have ever hurt me this deep but not once but each day you have done so and it only shows what I mean to you…others always have been more important to you…none of my business If you invite your family (to the new house) as I had enough of your crap treatment towards me you have enjoyed your life ignoring me, im left suffering crying so now on I will enjoy my life away from you, you laughed and joked with othr girls (same referencfe to the 1 incident recently) and your family while as soon as you saw me you had this hatred look (wrong as she was the one with the look!! it was only when she started acusing me of the ridiculous statement that i wanted to sleep with the salesgirl that i got an angry look - not hatred look) and the way you used harsh words with me ( all i said was she was talking about a 'poiintless topic' as her accusations were not true that i wanted to sleep with that girl) 

...even when im nice (i have NEVER EVER said anything harsh to her when we are happy. This is an important point to make, in our entire 3 years i have NEVER started any of our arguments, it has ALWAYS been her to change moods first. She will say its me, and this willl be based from something as minor as me giving an opinion on a topic unrelated to her which she would take as being personal and insulting to her or that i have said something that disappoints her image of me)


and then with I react to that you expect me to not react and than you say im crap huh (never said that) …ppl know what you are so I in life never have to go gossip or prove like how you did secretly emailing which is sicker than sick (i emailed her dad asking for help when she was constantly saying she wanted a divorce as i just didnt know what to do or where to go...she saw the email and ever since has accused me of backstabbing and gossiping about her and making her parents stress about airing dirty laundry which i should have kept personal as she believes its only between us - to her defense she is right that i was the first one to reach out for external help as she never would expose our issues to anyone prior to then and still doesnt really in an open way, although i do know she texts her sisters complaining about me and passes comments under her breath in front of others about me)

....after that I still forgave u (no she hasnt as its constantly brought up) and lived with you but still your deceiving and ignorance doesnt stop and the way you talk to me only when you want to say crap about me (incorrect) , only then you talk other times your quiet (im only quiet when shes mad as if i respond its worse) …if im that evil and you cant talk then why are you with me? just leave and let me rest in peace…this times thats it as you cant test someones patience this much…im v v tired now and cant deal with your horrible acts towards me ..…had enough "

--------------------------------------------------


So i guess i also have 2 questions im hoping to find answers to in the books....


(How much) should i be sharing with her family about whats still happening....bearing in mind she doesnt want me to.....do i tell them i think she may have bpd? her family doesnt keep secrets v well usually but when it comes to our issues they do try and secretly talk to me about our issues as they can see us unhappy and not talking at times....i dont want her thinking yet again that im turning them against her and they are on 'my side'.....

If she keeps saying i should leave as she believes i hate her (not true) and i am sick of her (true when shes in her bad mood) .....should I take up her challenge? Or will it make things worse?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> I guess I intrepret impuslive as being sudden, rather than a general desire of everything needeing to be grandeur/high fi....


NeedHelp, you are right, of course. Having expensive tastes, by itself, does not make someone "impulsive." But you've written several pages describing very impulsive behavior. Her lack of impulse control is described in the way she is very unpredictable and will suddenly erupt into a rage at little or no provocation. 

It also is evident in your description of her not choosing to control her emotions, not being able to do self soothing to calm herself down, and not being able to intellectually challenge her intense feelings (instead of accepting feelings as "facts"). The rest of us learned those basic skills in childhood. 

Further, you describe her as accepting your marriage proposal only *3 months *into your dating relationship -- and "constantly saying she wants a divorce" at only *6 months* into your marriage. If this is not evidence of a lack of impulse control -- and her disregard of logical consequences -- I don't know what is.


> I went and got the book Stop Walking on Eggshells...almost on Chapter 3.....just keen to see how i can stop doing things that will light/defuse her flame of anger and devaluation....


The good news is that this book gives excellent advice on how to validate her feelings without necessarily agreeing with them. That will help to calm her down a bit. The bad news, however, is that this will make a meaningful difference in her behavior only if she has mild traits of BPD. If the traits are strong, it will only make a small dent in the problems. That, at least, was my experience.


> So cant wait to get to the part in the book that shows how i need to change my behaviour....scared of how this will be taken though.


You have good reason to be concerned. As I mentioned earlier, if your W has strong BPD traits, she will tolerate your living with her only if you continue "validating" her false self image of being "The Victim." There are only two ways of doing that. 

On her good days -- when she is splitting you white -- you can be "The Savior." Of course, she has no interest in actually being saved from anything. Rather, she only needs the ensuing drama to validate that she is "The Victim" who must be saved. As I said, as soon as you pull her from the raging waters, she will jump right back in (creating another problem) as soon as you turn your head.

On her bad days -- when she is splitting you black -- your only choice is to be "The Perpetrator." That means you will be blamed for everything, no matter how hard you try to please her. Sadly, you were only 6 months into your marriage when her good days were far outnumbered by her bad days. If she is a BPDer, it will get worse as the years go by. 

If you depart from those two roles (of savior and perpetrator), she likely will leave you. If you stop walking on eggshells, as the book suggests, she probably will become so fearful you are going to abandon her that she will end the terrible pain by preemptively abandoning you. That's what my exW did to me at the end of 15 years.


> She says that she is just waiting for me to kick her out as she feels she can tell that I hate her.... When i came out she was livid and accused me of being attracted to the sales girl,...and flirting with her (i didnt do this).


You are describing the way a woman acts when she has a great fear of abandonment, which is one of the key hallmarks of BPD. Indeed, it is trait #1 in your list above. Significantly, you did not identify trait#1 as a behavior she definitely has. 

Instead, you conceded only that it might be true. If you add the abandonment fear (trait#1) to the four traits you recognized -- together with the impulsivity (trait#4) and threats of self harm (trait#5) I discussed above -- you are already up to 7 of the 9 traits.

If your W has strong BPD traits, she is filled with self-loathing and shame. She also feels "fake" because she is aware that she doesn't really know who she is. She therefore has a great fear of abandonment. Specifically, she fears that, once you find out that she is an unlovable fake, you will abandon her.

The result is that she will subject you to endless sh!t testing to find out if you really love her. Because she is incapable of trusting or loving herself, she will never believe that you can either. Hence, by insisting you do love her, you are simply proving that -- in addition to not loving her -- you also are lying to her. 

The result is that, every time you pass a test, she will become ever more insistent that you don't really love her. Moreover, she will raise the hoop a bit higher for the very next sh!t test, which is soon to follow.

My exW, for example, saw an abandonment threat in the most mundane of daily activities. She would become very jealous if I looked at another woman for a second instead of a half-second. And, when we were walking together on the sidewalk, she would feel ignored and disrespected if I somehow got a few feet ahead of her -- never mind that there were other pedestrians or that the sidewalk had narrowed. 

She interpreted it to mean that I was ashamed to be seen with her or that I was only interested in looking at other women. Sometimes she would deliberately slow down (while I was not looking) so she could chastise me for treating her so rudely. 

Of course, the problem would not have been solved even if I had super glued myself to her side. She would have just created another problem out of thin air. Because her fear is so intense and her emotional development so stunted, her mind creates a "logical" reason to explain that strong feeling. And, because the reason is fully created in her subconscious, she is convinced it is true at a conscious level. In this way, BPDers perceive feelings to be "facts."


> She told me to get lost and if i didnt she would call the cops.


You were only in the first year of your marriage and your W was ALREADY threatening to have you arrested! If you manage to hold out for 15 years, like I did, you likely will end up in jail. My advice, then, is to avoid being anywhere near her on Saturdays. Otherwise, what will happen is that you won't have an opportunity to be arraigned before a judge until late on Monday afternoon. Until you stand before a judge, you will not be released. For that reason, I had to spend three days in jail.

Think about it. For a woman who needs almost daily validation of being "The Victim," what better validation can she possibly obtain than a court order finding you guilty of having "struck" her. For a BPDer, that is the equivalent of having a framed certificate hanging on your wall showing you earned a Harvard PhD in Victimhood. This is why it is so common for the abused spouses of BPDers to spend time in jail.


> How much should i be sharing with her family ...do i tell them i think she may have bpd?


I suggest you say nothing to them about BPD traits as long as you are married to her. As you say, they almost certainly will tell her -- at which point she would project the accusation back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.

Further, telling her folks is unlikely to help her. If she is a BPDer, she cannot trust other people and therefore will not believe you or her parents. Instead, she will be convinced that you are all trying to control and dominate her. Indeed, this is why a team of psychologists usually cannot help a BPDer. She cannot trust her own therapists and therefore will turn against them -- in the unlikely event she seeks therapy to begin with. Only a few BPDers -- perhaps 1 in 100 -- have both the self awareness and ego strength needed to stay in therapy and work hard at it.

Finally, at this point, you have nothing to tell them but your own suspicions. Only a professional can determine whether she "has BPD," i.e., has full-blown BPD. Although you may be seeing 7 or 8 strong warning signs every week, you have nothing definitive to point to. I therefore suggest that -- if you ever decide to leave your W and you feel a need to explain it to your in-laws -- you slip a copy of _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ into the front seat of their car.


> If she keeps saying i should leave as she believes i hate her (not true) and i am sick of her (true when shes in her bad mood) .....should I take up her challenge? Or will it make things worse?


If she has strong BPD traits and refuses treatment, your toxic relationship likely will get worse no matter what you do. As the years go by, she likely will become increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy -- and increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.

Even if she agrees to therapy -- at your insistence -- she probably will just play mind games with the therapists and, as soon as one catches on to what she is doing, she will immediately switch to another therapist. In that way, I spent a small fortune sending my exW to weekly visits with 6 different psychologists (and several MCs) for 15 years -- all to no avail.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Wow...i felt like shouting out to you while reading this post saying OMG your wife must be my wife's twin! 

My wife never fails to remind me of the 1 incident where in our honeymoon i was walking ahead of her to quickly get to the airport gate which meant i didnt care about her and forgot about her so quickly after we got married....

In the few times her family has known of our issues and tried to talk to her, she has as per your comments accused all of them as trying to control and dominate her...she herself acknowledges all the time that she hates being told what to do and hates being dominated over.



Your last comments however almost made me cry with sadness as it seems like there is no hope to make this relationship work to what i was hoping..i.e one where we are happy most of the time.....




Uptown said:


> If she has strong BPD traits and refuses treatment, your toxic relationship likely will get worse no matter what you do. As the years go by, she likely will become increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy -- and increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.
> .


She already regularly mentions that i have cheated her by marrying her and how I have wasted her life as well as mentioning her being sad that her body is aging and that she will soon not be able to continue to wear her 'girly' dresses etc and is too fat etc. Aging was also an issue for kids as she said she would never want kids after 30 when we first were courting each other. Now she doesnt want kids with ME at all. 

If i read the book, and try to change my approach and it doesnt work or help much...how much time do i need to give before i should figure out its futile.....

i also constantly worry about just not knowing how i would bring myself to start the sad cycle of ending this relationship without the hurt and sadness that is certainly to occur for everyone that would be impacted....i know reading the book is meant to give me reason to udnerstand that its not me, and that iv made an effort, but the concept of moving apart is just so sad and draining and life impacting.....


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

SO WHY DO I CONTINUE TO STAY YOU ASK?

- When she is happy...my heart melts....she looks like an innocent girl with cute chubby cheeks and sparkling big eyes and I just want to be with her forever and be her partner, protector and life companion.
*You sound more like a parent of a cubby big eye baby. Not a reason to say.*


- When she is happy, she is thoughtful about me, by telling her family to give me food, or when away from me, asking about me.

*What percent of the time is she happy? *

*Is it worth putting up with the times she's unhappy?*

- I am very attched to her family and feel like they are my own blood sisters, brother, and mother/father too. *Not a reason to stay, you can find good friends*.

- I still love and adore my wife very much. 

*You have to love yourself more, she does not tread you well, do you think she loves you?*

- Because of my bond with my wife and her family, I feel that If i decided to end this relationhip I would never forgive myself for letting them all down. 

*Why? They don't live what you go through, if they care about you they will undestand, try thinking about you. I don't think there lives will be ruined by you divorcing her. You seem to care more about them than you do about you* 


- I feel scared that my wife's life would be completely shattered without me with life longing impacts. 

*She's only responsible for her self, she's not your child. What about you? She is only going to get worse, then when you have kids she is going to treat them the same or worse.

You seem to care only about others, but you need to be happy too*.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> Wow...i felt like shouting out to you while reading this post saying OMG your wife must be my wife's twin!


If so, you will find a good description of your W's behavior -- when she is in her passive-aggressive mood instead of a rage -- in Shari Schreiber's article about "waif borderlines," which also are called "quiet borderlines." Although you are not describing "quiet" or "waif" traits, Schreiber's article nonetheless may cast some light on your W's occasional passive-aggressive moments. 

Most BPDers act out with rage and temper tantrums when their anger is triggered. Yet, like the quiet BPDers, the "loud ones" occasionally will slip into passive aggressiveness when angry. Schreiber's article is at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved..


> If i read the book, and try to change my approach and it doesnt work or help much...how much time do i need to give before i should figure out its futile?


You're asking the wrong guy. Remember, I waited 15 years -- until my exW abandoned ME. According to a therapist I found online several years ago, this is what usually happens to the abused spouse.

This therapist, who claimed to have treated many BPD couples, says that BPDer relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. The relationship lasts *18 months*, he explains, when the Non ("nonBPDer") has strong personal boundaries. The Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails.

The relationship lasts *15 years*, he explains, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus has low personal boundaries. Such a Non (i.e., you and me) typically never does bail. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees herself growing old. 

This explanation struck a strong chord with me because my relationship lasted 15 years, at which time my wife had me arrested on a bogus charge and filed a restraining order barring me from my own home for a year and a half (when the divorce was finalized).

Just so you know -- as your W grows older, she likely will start taking a daily blood thinner (e.g., Plavix or aspirin) to reduce the risk of strokes and heart attacks. If so, this will make her capillaries so thin that the slightest bump against a table or chair will leave an ugly, dark bruise for many days. 

This means that any attempt to restrain her -- as you may have done when her nails were gouging out your hand during a rage -- will unavoidably leave bruises on her arms and shoulders, no matter how gentle you try to be. When the police arrive, the first thing they will do is to photograph those bruises.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

mablenc said:


> What percent of the time is she happy?


less then 20% with ME....




mablenc said:


> Is it worth putting up with the times she's unhappy?


I guess thats why im here....to figure this all out to see if anything can change and if it cant then to make some hard life impacting decisions either way....






mablenc said:


> do you think she loves you?


She often says both she does and doesnt...deep down i do feel she does....but maybe im missreading her love for me as her need for me



mablenc said:


> - Because of my bond with my wife and her family, I feel that If i decided to end this relationhip I would never forgive myself for letting them all down.
> 
> Why? They don't live what you go through, if they care about you they will undestand, try thinking about you. I don't think there lives will be ruined by you divorcing her. You seem to care more about them than you do about you


Because in our culture a couple never breaks up and her family has always said to me that she is now my responsibility - a divorced woman in our culture has a much harder life than in other cultures to get a second chance ( yes i do would want her to get that 2nd chance as everyone deserves to be happy i feel) and i do feel that this would crush all of them and her....


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Uptown said:


> I suggest you say nothing to them about BPD traits as long as you are married to her. As you say, they almost certainly will tell her -- at which point she would project the accusation back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.


Her younger sister who is 21 (who my W adores and texts a million times a day and i know shares things with...) is studying 2nd year pyschology....im thinking that maybe it would be good to suggest to her about BPD as she might be open to looking at it and be in a much better position to understand it and accept it given her studies? my W's family does know that our relationship has been rocky and have tried to be a caring shoulder as much as they can for the little that they know and have seen...



Uptown said:


> Further, telling her folks is unlikely to help her


But arent they surely in a similar position as me as 'non BPD family' given my W lived at home till she was 28, i.e they have experienced a lot of the pain as i have for much longer (not to such an extent but certainly i know they have seen the angry outbursts etc as she herself used to tell me when we were dating that she was so happy i was with her and she just wanted to take me away from all of them as at times she stated she hated a few of them)...and therefore it would be good for them to know how they can change their behaviours and triggers to her? Her mother often says she doesnt know what to do/say to my W and even proclaims that my W treats us the same at times (i.e not talking to us or easily getting angry or not listening to us)





Uptown said:


> This therapist, who claimed to have treated many BPD couples, says that BPDer relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. The relationship lasts *18 months*, he explains, when the Non ("nonBPDer") has strong personal boundaries. The Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails.


I dont know whether its relevant or not but interesting 18 months in our relationship was when we just came back from the honeymoon and things soured v quick. Actually now that i come to remember, she made me so upset i cried twice in our honeymoon....which also reminded me that this relationship was the first time that i was made to cry since i was 15 and my sis was getting married and moving countries....she intially pre marriage used to feel it showed i cared for her....post mariage she felt it made me less of a man and she always was the one who had to take care of me because i couldnt be strong



Uptown said:


> Just so you know -- as your W grows older, she likely will start taking a daily blood thinner (e.g., Plavix or aspirin) to reduce the risk of strokes and heart attacks. If so, this will make her capillaries so thin that the slightest bump against a table or chair will leave an ugly, dark bruise for many days.
> 
> This means that any attempt to restrain her -- as you may have done when her nails were gouging out your hand during a rage -- will unavoidably leave bruises on her arms and shoulders, no matter how gentle you try to be. When the police arrive, the first thing they will do is to photograph those bruises.


Interestingly she is apparently 'allergic' (according to her) to medicine and hates going to the doctor ....she NEVER has pills ever since as a kid...her parents had to hide and crush them in food to give them to her....


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## Christina909 (May 2, 2013)

I would like to hear her side though sounds like both of you need help I would defiantly read the book boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and the Love Dare by Alex Kendrick keep working at it there hope maybe she needs to mature I used to be crazy jealous in my younger days can't believe stuff I did your doing right by sticking it out to many run from there marriage it's for better or for worse that's the vow. Hope all turns out good.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

"Interestingly she is apparently 'allergic' (according to her) to medicine and hates going to the doctor ....she NEVER has pills ever since as a kid...her parents had to hide and crush them in food to give them to her...."

*Please, you can't be allergic to medicine in general, certain ones yes, but not all. Do you think she hates going to the doctor because they found her mental health questionable or she's afraid they wil notice she's not well. Or it could be paranoia about drs and medicine.
*

"Because in our culture a couple never breaks up and her family has always said to me that she is now my responsibility - a divorced woman in our culture has a much harder life than in other cultures to get a second chance ( yes i do would want her to get that 2nd chance as everyone deserves to be happy i feel) and i do feel that this would crush all of them and her...."

*I don't know your culture but I understand. However this is a totally different situation, you can't fix her and you should not be condemned to suffer all your life. I'm sure there has been exceptions in your culture, this should be one of them.

She needs help medical help, if she can agree to do that would help her. If she's refusing then you have done all you can, unless she gets worse and you can have her committed. There she would be forced to get treatment.*


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## nothingtodeclare (Apr 13, 2013)

You need to quit reading self help books and RUN! Don't waste any more of your life with someone hell-bent on ruining your life. BPD? Interesting, but it's time to leave. If she cared about second chances in her culture, she would not treat you worse than her dog. Don't waste precious life on a human vacuum, big eyes or not.


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## Christina909 (May 2, 2013)

For one thing these are not self help books they are Christian marriage books is always good to get knowledge and learn a marriage is a powerful union you can't just run. If anything you need to give it at least a year maybe you have to separate for awhile but not divorce. Get counseling and pray pray pray for her.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Sorry to disagree, she needs more than counseling, husband reading books, and prayer, she needs serious help from a medical professional. 
His has stuck around long enough. He has tried to deal as best he could with her, he can fix her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> Her younger sister who is 21 ...is studying 2nd year pyschology....im thinking that maybe it would be good to suggest to her about BPD....


Perhaps it would be good to do much later, at which time you will be at liberty to give SIL an earful about all the abuse dumped on you. Right now, however, I would like to see you focus more on helping YOURSELF, not your SIL. If you are an excessive caregiver, as I suspect, you find it very difficult to focus on meeting some of your own needs. Instead, you sacrifice yourself -- sometimes to no good end -- on those around you.


> But arent [her family members] surely in a similar position as me as 'non BPD family' given my W lived at home till she was 28, i.e they have experienced a lot of the pain ...and therefore it would be good for them to know how they can change their behaviours and triggers to her?


Again, if you are determined to do something for her family, my suggestion is to send them the _Eggshells_ book anonymously -- either through the mail or by dropping it into their car. But don't hold your breath expecting gratitude if you approach them directly. 

The conventional wisdom at all the BPD sites (targeted to abused spouses) is that such news falls on deaf ears when given to the BPDer's family. What you likely will find out is that the apple has not fallen very far from the tree. 

Whether that general advice applies to your situation, however, is something I cannot know. Because you know the situation, you will have to rely on your own judgment -- and any professional guidance you receive by seeing a psychologist for a visit or two.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

OP,

Its time to man up and look up co-dependency. As someone who is still recovering from codepency I can tell you from personal experience that this woman will end up leaving you a shell of man that no healthy woman will want. DO NOT have children with this person. If you don't want kids consider a vasectomy.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow. She is a spoiled, entitled little princess with anger issues. She is not going to change, so this is what you get for the rest of your life. She is abusing you. The way you describe how you feel "the times she is happy" sound EXACTLY the same as what you hear battered women describe about their abusive husbands. Have you ever read about these abused women and said "what is wrong with her? Why doesnt she leave that horrible man?!"? Are you willing to be fed crumbs for the rest of your life? Are you willing to let her abuse you and belittle you for the rest of your life? Are you willing to allow yourself to be unhappy for the rest of your life?


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## catch22gofigure (Apr 26, 2013)

Well good gosh ! All this has me wondering ...ok going to buy yet another book.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

So i read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells....and came away a little disappointed....its a great book for those who have only heard the term BPD and know nothing else about it....but given iv had such great insights from fellow supporters in this forum and have googled up quite a bit about it, the book left me with lots of questions still.....the key part around what to do when a BPD partner gets mad was hardly covered with just a couple of examples that to be honest i have tried before and didnt work, and tried again in the weekend and spectacularly backfired...

Keeping limits and being firm is all well and good when the person on the other hand will respect you to do so. Saying that i respect her opinion but i have mine and we agree to disagree cause her to rage. 

Saying that when she threatens and does physical self harm is not my responsibility as im not responsible for her actions, evoked outrage such as 'reactions are always actions and it was you (me) that forced me to do that so its your fault" , and a complete stretch of the context..i.e i was reffering to self harm, she took it that im saying that she is resonsible for everything wrong in this relationship and im trying to say none of it is my fault. 

Asking her to stop swearing at me and calling me names gets met with accusations that i torture her and treat her S*** by walking out on her (and therefore not supporting her according to her) when she is yelling and letting loose all sorts of hurtful things. Im expected to stay and listen. I have never said sorry to her after marriage according to her (so wrong), and then in the next breath, acknowledement that i say sorry but 'thats all i do' and dont back it up with anything else -.e showing care. Of course no matter how many times iv tried to speak sweetly, hug her, sit with her, do things for her, none of this gets remembered....

When i tried to pushback about RESEARCHING AND WRITING her ENTIRE Masters degree for her, caused her to again go in a rage to say i treat her s*** and i never do anything for her and that if i didnt want to 'help' i should have said so in the first place. My calm response of trying to say that i was waiting for her to take over her studies (as its been 2 months since the degree started and i thought she would only need me to help for the first few weeks) from me was completely ignored. 

Yesterday she started going off at me with her 16yr old brother in the car....she couldnt care he was there. Constantly saying that im so unhappy with her and blame her for everything then why am i here and to 'wait and watch' and that she will leave me and just wants me to suffer the rest of my life. 

When we got home i sat watching tv while she went to sleep at 7pm. When i went up at 11pm, 20 minutes later she started going off again. For 2 hours, it was all about my (bad) character because of how i have cheated/tortured/bullied/treated her like s*** since we were married. When i ask, no examples. But i know her definition of these things are not what you and I would expect. I.E Emailing her dad for help when for a month she was saying she was going to divorce me anyday, was backstabbing to her. Simply having a different opinion equals arguing which equals torturing her.

My past indiscretions from over 5 years ago before we met (visiting a strip joint for a friends stag nite, photos in FB of a Europe trip where i was hugging girls from our tour bus and they kissed me on the cheek, and my dabble in soft drugs when i was 17-20) are brought up again to belittle me, as well as including things like her accusing me on how desperate and low self esteem i had when i met her.

I ended up going to another room to get some rest as we both have to wake up at 5:30am for work. Argurements continued till 1:30 am. In the end all the constant threat of how i trapped her in the marriage and cheated her etc and that i need to go and bring divorce papers was enoguh for me. I just said ok if thats what she wants, then i will go and get the papers today. To whcih of course she said dont blame it on me, be a man and accept you want to end this too. I said i dont want to but that it was her that is connstantly unhappy with me. Anyway, after more yelling she stormed off. Then, 3 times in the middle of the night she purposely thumps her feet up and down the stairs banging doors, opening/closing the garage door at 2 in the morning etc, all to get a response. 


So today, now that im at work, i just dont know if i should make the leap and actually look into separation papers. (we have to live apart 1 year before we can divorce) I know that a lot of what she said i should be ignoring due to the BPD emotional 'speak'....but our marriage is not a happy one, she constantly tells me how much she despises me and what i have done to her and that all her 'reactions' are from my actions. She is always taunting me to get out of the relationship and give her peace...yet when she herself is free to initiate it she doesnt. i feel that she wants me to initiate it so that she can prove to others that im the bad one....

What to do.....


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You are being abused. Take the leap and be the "bad" one and file for divorce. You do not deserve to be treated like this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

Please make notes of everything I'm sure you can get custody of both kids. I wound asume they were trying to sleep during her yelling thumpning and garage door opening. I would have taken the kids and gone to a motel. But that's me. Stop sweet talking to her and man up. Leave her when she's throwing a tantrum. Tell her you want a divorce. Tell her that you can't do her homeowner because she had to learn and because if the school finds out they will expel her.

Please listen the advice here you can't behave in anyway that will make her happy shes sick, you can't cure her and you can't wish it away. The harm that you for staying and her for being like she is, is causing your kids is awful and cannot be undone. Imagine one of your kids growing up to be like her? Or them doing drugs? Or worse committing suicied? 

All parent want their kids to be happy, by staying you are destroying their lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> So i read the book Stop Walking on Eggshells....the book left me with lots of questions still.....the key part around what to do when a BPD partner gets mad was hardly covered.


Yes, that was my experience with the book too. As I said earlier about that book, the advice given will only _"help to calm her down a bit. The bad news, however, is that this will make a meaningful difference in her behavior only if she has mild traits of BPD. If the traits are strong, it will only make a small dent in the problems."_ 

If your W has strong traits, you are essentially married to a woman with the emotional development of a four year old. That won't change no matter what YOU do or how many books you read. She is the only one who can change it and it will take many years -- in the unlikely event she decides to do something about it.


> Saying that when she threatens and does physical self harm is not my responsibility as im not responsible for her actions, evoked outrage such as 'reactions are always actions and it was you (me) that forced me to do that so its your fault"


If your W has strong BPD traits, you cannot reason with her while she is angry. As I said before, her "feelings" constitute "facts" in her mind. Moreover, even if you catch her in a calm, happy state, you still cannot reason with her on any sensitive matter -- and nearly all matters are sensitive to her. 

No matter how calm and happy she is, she is just ten seconds from breaking out into a rage because she carries the hurt and shame with her always. Hence, any attempt to reason with her will trigger her rage within ten seconds. There are not many problems in life that can be resolved that quickly. 

So just forget ever being able to do so with her (unless she gets treatment). She is not interested in finding solutions or making compromises but, rather, only in creating drama. The drama is needed to validate her false self image of being "The Victim."


> When she is yelling and letting loose all sorts of hurtful things, Im expected to stay and listen.


Yes, that is what is expected of you. Any child throwing a hissy fits wants an audience. One option, of course, is to stay around and listen to her tantrums and keep walking on eggshells.


> Of course no matter how many times iv tried to speak sweetly, hug her, sit with her, do things for her, none of this gets remembered....


While she is experiencing intense emotions -- which happens a LOT because she does not control her emotions -- those feelings constitute her reality. Anything that is inconsistent with the feeling cannot be true, by her way of thinking.


> My past indiscretions from over 5 years ago before we met ...are brought up again to belittle me.


Yes, like I said in my first post above, _"BPDers will maintain a mental list of every infraction you ever did. And, during the most mundane of arguments, they will pull out the entire list."_ If your W is a BPDer, you're very fortunate that she has not yet had you arrested for "brutalizing" her. When she accomplishes that, it will be the crown jewel on her growing list of your infractions. To a BPDer, having the husband arrested is the equivalent of earning a Harvard PhD in Victimhood.


> She is always taunting me to get out of the relationship ...yet when she herself is free to initiate it she doesnt. i feel that she wants me to initiate it so that she can prove to others that im the bad one.


If she is a BPDer, you figure right. My exW was always convinced that I was the one who wanted the divorce. Never mind that she had me arrested and thrown into jail. Never mind that, when I got out of jail, I found she had obtained a R/O barring me from going home for 18 months (the time it takes to get a divorce in this State). 

And never mind that the divorce was granted pursuant to a D petition SHE had filed. In her mind, it was all my doing. Indeed, when she was on the stand at the D hearing, the judge asked her if she wanted the D and she said "No, your Honor. I really don't. He does." The judge just rolled her eyes and granted the D. Hence, no matter WHAT you do, your W will blame it all on you if she is a BPDer.


> I know that a lot of what she said i should be ignoring due to the BPD emotional 'speak'.


Granted, you shouldn't stay around and listen to that verbal abuse. This is not to say, however, that you should ignore it. Even if your W is a BPDer, it is important to hold her responsible for her own behavior. Otherwise, she will have no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to grow up. This means she should be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her bad choices and behaviors.


> I just dont know if i should make the leap and actually look into separation papers. (we have to live apart 1 year before we can divorce).... What to do?


Like I said, it is important that you stop protecting her from the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. You are harming her by enabling her to behave like a spoiled child and GET AWAY WITH IT.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Granted, you shouldn't stay around and listen to that verbal abuse. This is not to say, however, that you should ignore it. Even if your W is a BPDer, it is important to hold her responsible for her own behavior. Otherwise, she will have no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to grow up. This means she should be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her bad choices and behaviors.Like I said, it is important that you stop protecting her from the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. You are harming her by enabling her to behave like a spoiled child and GET AWAY WITH IT.


But what im saying is that even this isnt working. When she is abusive, if i take your advice and not stay around, she follows me to the other room and continues the assault. At 1am. Where am i meant to go then? What am i meant to do then? I cant just leave home at 1am as that would make it even worse with her accusing me of abandoning her at night in a home alone. 

And when you say she should suffer logical consequences - what consequences? I.E Driving away at night? Or actual Separation?

She has texted me today apologising (rare) for her bad behaviour and that she hates herself for reacting from when I hurt her and make no effort (her words) , and she is sorry as she as no right to be hurt.....so she is deciding to move out (for the 3rd time) again back to her parents place....last few times this happene she firstly accused me of throwing her out (even though it was her decision both times and i begged her to stay) add her family started contacting me desperately saying i should come and stay with them and with her in the same room whilst she was there- this caused her to lose it in front of them accusing me of turning them against her too...

This time im strongly tempted to not try and stop her going and not let them convince me to come stay there. 

Im also wondering if i should tell her and them that i am going to see a clinical psych or should i keep that under wraps?


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

YES! Let her go, and don't be talked into going there. And NO, don't tell her or her parents you are seeing a psychologist. BPDers are fantastic about making the non-BPD spouse feel like THEY are the one with the mental illness. If you tell them, it will only give your wife more ammunition to use against you. 

And BTW, her "apology" is the sorriest excuse for an apology I've ever heard. She's sorry she reacted because you 'hurt her and made no effort'. She's being highly manipulative in every word. It would be best if she would go away for a while. If she does, set clear limits...it's the perfect opportunity. Tell her if she calls you screaming at you abusively, you WILL hang up and you WILL NOT answer the phone again for another 6 hours. And actually DO it. Tell her if she starts sending you nasty long-winded emails, you will delete them without reading them. And actually DO it. This is your chance to set boundaries. Use this opportunity WISELY.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> But what im saying is that even this isnt working. When she is abusive, if i take your advice and not stay around, she follows me to the other room and continues the assault.


Yes, I understand. My BPDer exW would chase me room to room. Of course, I knew that I should leave our home. But every time she would find some credible disaster to threaten me with. Earlier, it was suicide threats, wherein I would follow her as she walked to a nearby high bridge.

When I stopped following her to the bridge, she stopped going there. Instead, she would go to the nearest subway station and call me from the platform, saying she was going to jump in front of the next train -- and then hang up. When I stopped running down to the subway, she stopped doing that too.

At the end of our 15 year marriage, she was furious that I refused to drive her and our grandaughter and my SIL to the beach. So she chased me room to room. I didn't leave because she swore she was going to let our grand daughter drive the rental car I had reserved -- this is the same grandaughter who had just totaled her parents' car a month earlier. I therefore knew that a car accident could kill them all or, at the very least, could wipe out a lifetime of my savings because our grandaughter was uninsured (and the car was rented under my name).

So, instead of leaving our home, I retreated to a bedroom, where my exW proceeded to try to destroy the door. So I pushed her away from the door, causing her to step backward and fall down. In this State -- indeed, in most States -- that is all it takes to get arrested on a domestic violence claim. So she called the police and had me thrown into jail. If your W has strong BPD traits, NeedHelp, I likely am describing your future too. It does NOT end well.


> At 1am. Where am i meant to go then? What am i meant to do then?


The first time she did this to you, the appropriate response is to tell her your boundary and how you intend to enforce it -- that you would leave for a few hours for a minor show of disrespect and leave for several nights for a major show of disrespect (like you are getting on a regular basis now). That's one reason that men learned how to build hotels.


> I cant just leave home at 1am as that would make it even worse with her accusing me of abandoning her at night in a home alone.


Sure you can. And what difference does it make if you "make it even worse"? If your W has strong BPD traits, you are married to a woman who has the emotional development of a four year old. You therefore are effectively asking how, when your child is throwing a hissy fit, you can take any action that makes the hissy fit worse. Of course, if you do the right thing and hold the child fully responsible for her bratty behavior, THE HISSY FIT WILL GET WORSE. But you should do it anyway.


> And when you say she should suffer logical consequences - what consequences? I.E Driving away at night? Or actual Separation?


As I said, for less serious disrepectful behavior, leave for a few hours (letting her know you intend to return). For more serious abusive behavior, get a hotel room. At this point, however, you've suffered so much abuse that I agree with Waking -- and nearly every other respondent -- that you should accept her offer to move out.

Indeed, when no young children are involved, my usual advice to anyone married to an untreated, abusive BPDer is to seek a divorce if she is unwilling to seek treatment and work hard in weekly therapy for at least several years. I have not suggested that to you for two reasons. One is that you've still not said that you believe she exhibits most of the BPD symptoms at a strong level (and I can't know because I've never met her). 

The other reason is that it is so emotionally painful for caregivers like us to walk away from a BPDer loved one that doing so is best described as a _process_, not an _event_. My take, from what you've been saying so far, is that you are still not very far along in that process. We've dumped a lot of information on you in a few days and it takes a while to digest it all.


> So she is deciding to move out (for the 3rd time) again back to her parents place..... This time im strongly tempted to not try and stop her going and not let them convince me to come stay there.


My advice, like that of Waking, is that you not be STRONGLY TEMPTED but, rather, to go ahead and JUST DO IT. Let her go and don't follow. If she later decides to seek treatment and shows evidence of substantial progress, you can always take her back then. But, if you're still unwilling to let her go, don't beat yourself up about it. You've already made remarkable progress in less than one week!


> Im also wondering if i should tell her and them that i am going to see a clinical psych or should i keep that under wraps?


I agree with Waking that "under wraps" is good. For one thing, you've yet to get any confirmation from a professional that your W does seem to have most BPD traits at a strong level. For another thing, if she does, she almost certainly will project the accusation back onto you if her parents tell her about your suspicions.


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## Fleur de Cactus (Apr 6, 2013)

Sorry about your situation. I hope you will find a way to get out this tough life. The only thing I want to add here is that her family must be aware of her problem. At her age the family members could not ignore her personality disorder. This is the reason why they love you. They are happy to see that she has someone who cares about her, who loves her, because it gives them a break!! Because she can turn her anger to them! Saying that you have a good relationship with her family and you do not want to let them down, it seems like you are ready to suffer so that they can be happy. I am sure they know about the issue. Think about yourself, don’t try to satisfy others. Listen to others who lived with BPD. It is very hard, and you may end up in bad situation. Good luck.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

So i finally got a bit of courage and responded to her threats of leaving me because of everything i have done to her....she emailed me at work and was again complaining about me and that how i have lost her because of all i have done to her...

I said to her that if she wanted to leave i would respect that decision if that was what she really wanted and that i hoped that giving each other space and doing things apart from a while would help us think over things....


Bad reaction as expected.....flood of emails accusing me of kicking her out again, showing my true colours and how i hate her, she was waiting for me to do this, that i wanted the house for myself, that it was ME that wanted her to leave and to leave me alone, etc etc. 

She went straight to her parents after work without any of her stuff and had left the house keys at home in the morning..

Im a bit lost with what to do now....i rang and asked when she was coming home and that she didnt have her keys....she just hung up after saying why am i asking and caring after i have ended everything...

I dont know if i should go there and visit her....if i should just cut out with her and let her contact me if she wants to come home....i dont know if i should just cut out with her family instantly either or if i shuld tell them what she has decided to do of let her do it....

i also feel guilty about not telling her that she should stay home and we can live in a civil manner and do our own thing for a while....or if i should have offered to move out....am i bad for thinking that i have more of a right over the house because its all coming out of my salary esp given we have only been married just over a year? Legally over here if the marriage is under 3 years the contributions to property is considered in making calls on who gets what.....or am i being too selfish...still havent told my family yet either....as i have a feeling she may just come back tonight without telling her family anything and we continue as we have been....


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Hey Uptown, i was lurking on a couple of other threads and noticed this comment of yours....



Uptown said:


> I mention this because you do not say anything about her trying to pull you back into the relationship with the loving and caring behavior. Nor do you mention her flipping rapidly between loving you and hating you. Nor do you mention her ever truly loving you. I therefore ask whether you have observed these behaviors and felt that, at least at some point, she genuinely did love you.


I wonder if my wife has NPD now...or can she have both NPD and BPD....as i havent found her loving to me in a very very long time....certainly not flipping rapidly....maybe 1-2 days out of 30 that she is OK with me with a few fleeting shows of affection....rest of the time its all negative....


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> Hey Uptown, I wonder if my wife has NPD now...or can she have both NPD and BPD?


Yes, she can have both. Indeed, a recent study (pub. 2008) found that most BPDers also have one or two other PDs as well -- together with a clinical disorder such as depression, bipolar, or anxiety.


> I havent found her loving to me in a very very long time.


If she were a full-blown narcissist, she would be incapable of loving you -- ever. Hence, if she loved you at the beginning, it is extremely unlikely she is a full-blown narcissist. She nonetheless could still have some moderate to strong traits of narcissism.


> ...certainly not flipping rapidly.


Are you sure about that? Sometimes you talk about her flipping instantly into a nasty mood. In your first post, e.g., you say _"These attacks occur instantly anywhere anytime, in the middle of normal conversations."_

Moreover, you sometimes talk about her constantly hating you. Other times, however, you talk about her periodically being sweet and then becoming nasty quickly. In your first post, you say _"When she is happy...my heart melts....she looks like an innocent girl with cute chubby cheeks and sparkling big eyes and I just want to be with her forever and be her partner, protector and life companion.
- When she is happy, she is thoughtful about me - I still love and adore my wife very much."_

So what is it? Does she treat you thoughtfully and with caring for several days and then, in a few seconds, flip to hating you for a week? Or, rather, has she permanently split you black and chosen to abuse you at all times? And, if the latter is true, why did you write _"I still love and adore my wife very much"?_


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Are you sure about that? Sometimes you talk about her flipping instantly into a nasty mood. In your first post, e.g., you say _"These attacks occur instantly anywhere anytime, in the middle of normal conversations."_
> 
> Moreover, you sometimes talk about her constantly hating you. Other times, however, you talk about her periodically being sweet and then becoming nasty quickly. In your first post, you say _"When she is happy...my heart melts....she looks like an innocent girl with cute chubby cheeks and sparkling big eyes and I just want to be with her forever and be her partner, protector and life companion.
> - When she is happy, she is thoughtful about me - I still love and adore my wife very much."_
> ...


Her flipping is from being in a happy and talkative mood or excited about something or talking calmly about something in general - which then can suddenly turn to being nasty or taunting. 

It's not from being in a loving mood with me which she then flips from if your definition of loving is being thoughtful, caring and affectionate because to me thats few and far between.....

If you define loving as being thoughtful or caring of me...apart from showing this in front of her family by way of speaking sweetly or politely to me, e.g asking me to take food or telling them to give me food..to be honest i struggle to remember the last time i saw her loving me when it is just between us...aside from the minimal intimacy i described earlier.....

i dont consider things like just talking to me about things like what we need to do/buy for the house or talking about her work or family count as showing love...nor about her asking me to do things for her in a nice manner (give food, buy something, do a job etc) ......should i?

The big eyes/chubby cheeks comment is basically me saying that it warms my heart to see her smile and be happy...esp when we are talking.......her facial expressions or cute/silly things she says makes me feel good....again these things are not about ME or directed to me....but when she is happy in general i just feel a part of it which is what makes me happy....

Maybe i have taken things for granted and cant see her love because im expecting more....or maybe because i havent seen the love in so long that even her general calmness or happiness about other things is now enough for me to continue to love and adore her. along with any fleeting shows of love in a month....


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

To Needhelp66

*Your wife has way too many problems for you to fix, you are way over your head!*
In addition, you need to get every help that you can in addition to the below post




> Sorry to disagree, she needs more than counseling, husband reading books, and prayer, she needs serious help from a medical professional


*You seriously need someone to help you grow a pair. You are close to being a door mat*

I do not say that to offend you but if you do not quit acting like a dish rag your life is going to be even more hell!

Just read a few of your own posts below.* Do you not see how unmanly you are and how much of an enabler you are?*



> I would constantly apologies (even when not my fault) and she would get over things.
> 
> Or when I try to respond to her attacks I get told im either arguing or defending myself. If i try and argue back when she is completely wrong it escalates to the point where she threatens to harm herself and is literally screaming...so I have no choice but to stay quiet (to which i then get
> 
> ...




*Needhelp66
You are a good man but if you do not get help for yourself the disrespect from your wife will continue and you will eventully loose respect for yourself. You need to get stonger and stand up for yourself*


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

needhelp66 said:


> The big eyes/chubby cheeks comment is basically me saying that it warms my heart to see her smile and be happy...esp when we are talking.......her facial expressions or cute/silly things she says makes me feel good....again these things are not about ME or directed to me....but when she is happy in general i just feel a part of it which is what makes me happy....
> 
> Maybe i have taken things for granted and cant see her love because im expecting more....or maybe because i havent seen the love in so long that even her general calmness or happiness about other things is now enough for me to continue to love and adore her. along with any fleeting shows of love in a month....


You dont SEE her love because there IS NO love. She has nothing but disdain and disrespect for you. And I hate to say this, but I dont think you actually "love and adore" her either, I think you are in a sick dynamic here that you have conditioned yourself to believe thats what you feel. Look at how she treats you...how you ALLOW her to treat you. Leave her be for now and enjoy your peace.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

NeedHelp, I agree with 3X that you are describing civility and happy moods -- but no love. Moreover, you've not described any emotional instability, where a person flips back and forth between adoring you and devaluing you. 

I therefore suggest you take a look at Kathy Batesel's overview of what it is like to live with a narcissist. Her blog on narcissism is at Narcissism: Recognizing, Coping With, and Treating It. Please let us know whether you find those NPD symptoms to be a better fit to what you've been observing.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Please let us know whether you find those NPD symptoms to be a better fit to what you've been observing.


Hi Uptown

I have had a bit of a read there and a couple of other sites that try and explain the two....overall i think she does display signs of both....NPD behaviours such as wanting to have a lavish life, talking up her achievements in the past or making excuses for other things that havent turned out as she liked...expecting the focus to be on what she wants rather than considerate to others....in terms of BPD though clearly feelings of abandonment such as jealousy of who i talk to, not being happy with me spending any time with family/friends etc, being very needy, and flipping between a normal/happy state (note not a loving state) and raging....


By way of an update to my previous post where i agreed with her threat to move out forever (and she used that back on me accusing i kicked her out and dont care about her and am doing what she always knew i would do) , she has now been staying at her familys place for the last 3 nights....2nd day had a few emails and txts with further accusations...but last 2 days have had nothing at all....i have also slowed down to just the general hello, how are you, goodnight,have a nice day texts.....but since yesterday I havent sent anything

.....feeling guilty that i should be trying to make more of an effort to stay in touch

....but then at the same time im just saying to myself that this is a good thing by having no contact as it will let her think over things so i shouldnt contact her at all....is that a good thing to do?

....im thinking to not get in touch now until she does.....complicating matters is she left ALL her stuff at home so im assuming she will come back eventually...not sure for how long or when....


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## Fleur de Cactus (Apr 6, 2013)

If she has NPD she will come back soon or later, if she needs more supply from you. Unless she finds another man who can give her attention for a while. N like to treat those who love them with silent treatment. So do not be surprised is she ignores you for a while. You have to keep in your mind that N does not change. They do not love but crave for attention and love. It is hard to love an N person, you will be drained one day. I suspected that she is N when she told you that you lost her! That is a warning sign! She sees herself as a rage gem! Very precious and cannot understand how you can not fight to have her back. But no love from her. She only wants to continue to make you miserable. Just go without contact. It is not easy, It hurts but you will not get anything from her if you continue this relationship. Be strong.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> im just saying to myself that this is a good thing by having no contact as it will let her think over things so i shouldnt contact her at all....is that a good thing to do?


NeedHelp, if you decide that she has strong BPD and/or NPD traits, my advice is to separate from her and file for D if she doesn't agree to seek IC by a psychologist or psychiatrist. Even if she does agree to weekly sessions in IC, she likely will just play mind games with the therapist if she has strong BPD and/or NPD.

Whether you give her a few weeks to think about things is up to you. The more time you have by yourself the quicker you will heal and start to think more clearly. My concern is that, when she again refuses therapy and you tell her you are filing for D, all hell will break lose. Ideally, then, that exchange should occur in a public place. And, when she comes to retrieve her things, you should have other people around for witnesses. Indeed, I would recommend you change the locks on the doors ASAP.

Again, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist (or psychiatrist) -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Given what is at stake, I believe you owe it to yourself to seek professional guidance.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

needhelp66 said:


> How much emotional abuse should i bear with as a loyal husband. Is there a line where if things don't change then seperation and divorce is the right answer EVEN THOUGH I still have v strong feelings for her? [From 9/21 post in your other thread.]


NeedHelp, as we've been discussing since last April, you passed that line a year ago. You say that your W -- whom you suspect has strong traits of BPD and NPD -- doesn't love you, is disrespectful, and is verbally abusive. Further, you describe her as being unable to trust you, which is one reason it is impossible for you to convince her of your love for her. Significantly, TRUST is the foundation on which all friendships and marriages must be built -- and it appears to be totally absent.


> Am I being greedy if I tell her i want the house as I paid the entire $50k deposit for it and have been paying all the mortgage and ill payments? Am I being too shallow and material even thinking about this at this time?


No, on the contrary, it is a very good sign that you are finally learning how to think about your own needs for a change. As I noted last April, we excessive caregivers have such a powerful need to be needed (for what we can do) that we ignore our need to be loved (for the men we already are). We therefore mistake being needed for being loved. And we have a unhealthy tendency to keep helping people even when it is to our great detriment to do so.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Hi all

Thought I'd give an update of (lack of (sigh)) progress of where I'm at. Things that have changed for the better:
My wife started helping with the housework a bit more by cooking some nights and cleaning the bathrooms.
She hasn't moved out since last April.
She cooks things or buys food/drinks I like making me think she cares.
After some of the heated arguments and days of silent treatment, she comes back giving me a hug and saying wants us to be happy

Things that have changed for the worse:
Got scratched/clawed at couple of times during arguments, tried to choke me a couple of times (from what I understand of her feelings and BPD she wasn't trying to do lasting harm but only trying to make me understand her feelings and that I'm wrong and need to realise it-yes I know what ur thinking but I'm just trying to express how she would see it)
I'm more stressed at work, possibly also because I've been in the company 10 years, redundancies occur all the time, I'm scared to lose my job but also wanting a new challenge yet can't seem to make the leap to another type of role or company - yes I know big similarities to indecision about my marital issues too....
I'm making less effort in the relationship which does bother me but maybe its because I'm getting increasingly frustrated and fed up
Taking a stand (wife interpretstion is fighting back) more often causing things to become worse i.e she says I'm not loving anymore because I do this and that I hate everything she says or am negative about everything. On the contrary what's changed is that I'm just choosing to ignore less taunts/accusations.

Things that have stayed the same:
I still get told I'm to blame for everything 
I'm still reminded that if never done anything for her/loved her since we married
Still told I'm disrespecting her when I'm voicing disagreement about how she perceives i feel or have/haven't done , and that I'm starting arguments
Still get the personal insults
Still get the insults to my parents over what they did over 1-2 years ago whom she has refused to meet ever since
Still get the silent treatment and then told I'm the one doing it to her when I back off too
Still get told that I should get the D because I'm the one saying I'm not happy with her and that this relationship can't work if we continue like this (yes I've said these things but I also love her)

So....thinking out loud...

Still finding it hard to get the seperation. Did contact a lawyer and got some info a month ago but then things became better for a few days when she came and gave me a hug....can't bring myself to saying this is it, its over; yet again until another v v bad argument occurs. Kinda feel that I'm being a coward or not putting enough effort if I go when things are not at ROCK bottom.

Keen to hear from people who went through D with a BPD partner and what tips they have or what they would do different...

Thanks all
This forum keeps me sane


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## kitty2013 (Dec 6, 2013)

Life is unfair . 
You are such a great husband. 

Btw, I am in a similar situation with my husband. My reasons to stay with him are identical to your reasons. 
The worse thing is that I am in my 20s. I have wasted the most beautiful years of my life living in a close to sexless marriage.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Oh and its our 2 yr anniversary today.

After 3 days of silent treatment the day started off with 12 novel length text messages from her at work (im on summer break) blaming me for the usual stuff.
Got her flowers- think they're still untouched
Made her baked fish meal - complained it smelled and didnt eat it (hasnt eating anything iv mafe last couple of weeks)
Just finished having to hear a 58 minute nonstop lecture about how bad I am, how i am to blame for everything

Just biting my tongue today as feel I shouldnt respond/defend sy lrast on this day...at least that's how I think. ..
Life is unfair? Yea...


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

needhelp66 said:


> Got scratched/clawed at couple of times during arguments, tried to choke me a couple of times (from what I understand of her feelings and BPD she wasn't trying to do lasting harm but only trying to make me understand her feelings and that I'm wrong and need to realise it-yes I know what ur thinking but I'm just trying to express how she would see it)


You do know what you did there, right? Made excuses for her physical abuse. Are you any different than a wife who shows to your place of work with a black eye and says, "It's not his fault, he just drank too much."? Would you make excuses for her or tell her to get the f*** out of there?



needhelp66 said:


> Still finding it hard to get the seperation. Did contact a lawyer and got some info a month ago but then things became better for a few days when she came and gave me a hug....can't bring myself to saying this is it, its over; yet again until another v v bad argument occurs. Kinda feel that I'm being a coward or not putting enough effort if I go when things are not at ROCK bottom.


Forget cowardice. You only have one life on this rock, of which you are about halfway through. You are in your early 30s. Do you want to live like this for another 40 years, constantly walking on eggshells? I get she does a few nice things for you. A tiger is warm and fuzzy to sleep next to at night but few people would do it because the downside is a lot messier. 

Obligation in marriage is a two-way street. I have only your words to go on and her story might be different but from what it sounds like, she has monster expectations but returns you crumbs. And I hate to say it but you have enabled it. When you treat people as if they are more important than you are, eventually they begin to believe it too. She's not more important than your own spiritual health and if to maintain that she has to go, well, there it is.

Don't waste any more time than you have to; make an exit strategy and act on it.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Convection said:


> Obligation in marriage is a two-way street. I have only your words to go on and her story might be different but from what it sounds like, she has monster expectations but returns you crumbs. And I hate to say it but you have enabled it. When you treat people as if they are more important than you are, eventually they begin to believe it too.


Yes agree I likely have a lot to blame for enabling it in the sense that she always focusses that I was different per marriage and used to be a lot nicer (read I ignored literally every negative comment at that time...prob because of the infatuation period) and used to do a lot more things for her (read I have made same if not more effort post marriage however now when she's upset and tells me not do things at times, I listen and don't do them...only for her to get angry about not doing them and telling me that if I loved her i would have done it anyway)

So yes there def is guilt there and she is right when she accuses me of being different and 'cheating' her by only 'arguing/defending' back after we were married and that it was me that pursued her with an immense drive to get married.....


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

She physically attacked you to express herself and you accept this? How do you know the violence will not escalate?

You are in an abusive relationship and will ultimately suffer more by delaying the inevitable divorce.

There are several threads that follow the pattern of your relationship. Seldom do they end well. Read Lifescript, Regroup or Synthetic.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

NeedHelp, thanks for giving us an update. As I said last May (post #42 above), if you decide she has strong BPD and/or NPD traits, my advice is to separate from her and file for D if she doesn't agree to seek IC by a psychologist or psychiatrist. Even if she does agree to weekly sessions in IC, she likely will just play mind games with the therapist if she has strong BPD and/or NPD.


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

Hi all

Sorry but I don't know how to link threads, but have posted in the Going through divorce forum that "Im going to do it"...have finally decided that I refuse to carry on an empty/broken/directionless marriage...

Thought would be good to hear from the people that have read my story for advice as well so apologies about keeping two threads going on the same topic.

Have setup a meeting with my lawyer on Monday to discuss seperation agreements. Now I just don't know how to tell my W I want it....and that I want to keep the house (as I've paid for all of it inc the ongoing payments even though we wbuilt it together last year, and legally its mine as we are married for less than 3 years)

How do I tell her
What do I do if she refuses to leave (as it may not help my case if I do)


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## needhelp66 (Apr 29, 2013)

I told her last night....said we need to go to MC to save the marriage...which she refused saying i need to go as i have the issues...she started crying and was upset for quite some time...saying that she knew i wanted to end this marriage for a while as that's why I've stopped caring and that MC is just an excuse for D and that I can't threaten her all the time like this.....

hard to hear but somewhat true in the sense that i have grown less attached to her....in fact I feel I've actually lost some sense of emotions as just felt emotionless while seeing her cry and talk last night...I told her if she won't come to MC then this is it and I will see my lawyer on Monday coz we have been unable to work out things ourselves. Which again she took as threat as I've said this before and haven't gone through with it. But now I am and have told her about the Monday appointment.

Still keen to hear about what to do if she won't leave the house...and also what do I tell the inlaws because of course they will call and want to know why and how to avoid it. I'm thinking If I should mention the relationship has been abusive or about the things she has said and done....or just not give reasons and say I can't see this working out...?

Appreciate some thoughts and support


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