# question for the sexless marriage crowd



## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

For those of you in sexless marriages (define that however you will, we average 0-3 times a year), does your LD/ refusing spouse have any other "issues" beyond being low drive? Like OCD, depression, PTSD, or anything else?

My husband is a compulsive hoarder and is highly intelligent (photographic memory). When we met he was living in conditions not unlike the hoarding shows on TV. Since living together we've devised a system for his hoarding, where he can designate an area in the house to hoard and nothing gets hoarded beyond the borders of that designation. Right now he has three rooms-- an office, a sunporch, and a room in the basement-- where he is hoarding. He's definitely not depressed and is quite the optimist about life.

This question is really just out of curiosity.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

We are maybe 1-2 a month...i consider that sexless. My husband takes an antidepressant due to a major depression that he went through 2+ years ago, before even meeting me. He is weaning off of it now.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Hoarding is an anxiety issue coupled with repressed rage and compulsions. All you're doing is putting a fence around it and hoping it stays contained. It's highly likely it won't stay contained.


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## frustr8dhubby (Dec 23, 2010)

We are once or so a month and to my knowledge she has no issues other than not liking sex. I am the HD one and I am on anti-depressants!!


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

My definition of sexless is not about a number but fulfillment. If sex is too infrequent and the sex you do have doesn't satisfy, then I would call that "sexless". I'm sure some would say its no sex at all, but to the person unfulfilled, its the same as no sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> We are maybe 1-2 a month...i consider that sexless. My husband takes an antidepressant due to a major depression that he went through 2+ years ago, before even meeting me. He is weaning off of it now.


Does his depression cause his LD or was he LD before that?


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> Hoarding is an anxiety issue coupled with repressed rage and compulsions. All you're doing is putting a fence around it and hoping it stays contained. It's highly likely it won't stay contained.


I actually think there is a genetic component to hoarding-- 2 of our children are hoarders, and hoard some of the same things my husband does. I found hundreds of unsharpened pencils and paper towel/ toilet paper tubes in one daughter's room (that one daughter inherited the photographic memory). Another daughter is more of a sentimental hoarder.

He is a very happy guy but I don't discount the notion of there being rage and anxiety behind it somewhere. I have asked him to explain the compulsion and he says that he sees possibility in what I see as garbage. Everything has a potential future use. Books and magazines might contain a kernel of information that could transform into something greater.

I do worry we'll go down like the Collyer brothers, in old age.


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> My definition of sexless is not about a number but fulfillment. If sex is too infrequent* and the sex you do have doesn't satisfy,* then I would call that "sexless". I'm sure some would say its no sex at all, but to the person unfulfilled, its the same as no sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a secondary issue we have-- on the rare occasion we do have sex, it's so awkward on his part that it's just embarrassing. I've tried everything in my bag of tricks but he still acts like a terrified teen on his first go round (he's 48!).


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

isla~mama said:


> Does his depression cause his LD or was he LD before that?


I have to go by what he tells me about his past sexual history, and from what I understand, he's never really had much of a sex life. His first wife was one of those who stopped having sex once children appeared...aside from her, he had very little experience. I'm very HD, sooooo.....here we are. Since he's always had so little sex, he doesn't see a problem!


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

And, I might add, getting him to discuss anything sexual is like pulling teeth!


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> And, I might add, getting him to discuss anything sexual is like pulling teeth!


My husband too!


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

It could be a man thing. I have a hard time communicating about the subject. Partly because I've been shot down and things havnt changed. Also guys believe women should be in tune with us and know without having to spell it out. Women are supposed to be sensitive and intuitive. My face and my mood is communicating even if I'm not saying it constantly that I'm miserable. My belief is if one has a problem then it's a problem for both and you better keep working on it until its fixed or a reasonable compromise can be agreed to and live with. They say if the wife ain't happy, no one is. I think it's if one is unhappy, both are going to be eventually.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Workdog (Feb 23, 2012)

Been married 39 years, totally zero-sex for the last 4, and looking for a way to fix or get out. W is a neat-freak, perfectionist, probably OCD to some extent. She came from a broken family with a dominant matriarchal system. She's never been interested in sex from day 1. Now she's re-writing our personal history so I'm the bad guy that I never knew I was. Maybe none of these things are diagnosable "issues", but they sure add up to spell "The End is Near".


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## Jadegreen (Apr 4, 2011)

last year we doubled our sexual activity, from 2 times the previous year to 4. It was a hard won triumph that I really worked at (and learned a lot on the way). This year my goal is to achieve the same or slightly more, like 4-6 times -8 would make me ecstatic. Biggest issue seems to be busy lives and having fallen out of communication on this issue. After that, there is a quality issue for me. I suspect he is pretty low drive. but not sure, because our early life was quite fulfilling.


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## Jadegreen (Apr 4, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> It could be a man thing. I have a hard time communicating about the subject. Partly because I've been shot down and things havnt changed. Also guys believe women should be in tune with us and know without having to spell it out. Women are supposed to be sensitive and intuitive. My face and my mood is communicating even if I'm not saying it constantly that I'm miserable. My belief is if one has a problem then it's a problem for both and you better keep working on it until its fixed or a reasonable compromise can be agreed to and live with. They say if the wife ain't happy, no one is. I think it's if one is unhappy, both are going to be eventually.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your comment is so interesting, Phantom. There is a kind of double speak - I'm trying to learn to be straightforward, but on the other hand, not critical. yowsers. Fine line to walk. and I feel pretty awkward about it, too.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Jadegreen said:


> Your comment is so interesting, Phantom. There is a kind of double speak - I'm trying to learn to be straightforward, but on the other hand, not critical. yowsers. Fine line to walk. and I feel pretty awkward about it, too.


Yes I am aware of the double standard that my comment appears to be. It is and it isn't. Men tend to be less vocal and communicate in other ways. Maybe that's leftover from the grunting caveman days but its true. When we actually open our mouths and use words, women need to listen and not jump on us for trying to do something we're not wired for and vice versa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

is once a month sexless?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Pretty much, IMO...not to some, I guess.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I think so. The standards I've read were around less than once a week not sure if I remember that right.

It's your definition, too. Below what keeps your marriage satisfactory.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> My definition of sexless is not about a number but fulfillment. If sex is too infrequent and the sex you do have doesn't satisfy, then I would call that "sexless". I'm sure some would say its no sex at all, but to the person unfulfilled, its the same as no sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For the poster who asked if once per month is sexless...


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Pretty much, IMO...not to some, I guess.


the quality is good....the frequency is not...for me anyway....


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

We're about once per year and my wife suffers from nothing but notinterestedin****itis.

Diagnosis is simple, but the cure rate is 50-50.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

sinnister said:


> We're about once per year and my wife suffers from nothing but notinterestedin****itis.
> 
> Diagnosis is simple, but the cure rate is 50-50.



how long have you been married?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

meaning the cure will cost you half of what you own.. or the stats for recovery are 50-50


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Was the question posed recently, whether sexlessness is a divorceable offense?


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> Was the question posed recently, whether sexlessness is a divorceable offense?


I would guess not....


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

My husband is paying attention at the moment, but that's probably because I broke down in tears over it all the other night...I am not a crier at all. So when I do, he knows it must really be something.

I'm going to try and keep him busy for at least a week, hopefully more. See if we can fix this crappy problem of ours. Everything else is more or less good (finally!).


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> My husband is paying attention at the moment, but that's probably because I broke down in tears over it all the other night...I am not a crier at all. So when I do, he knows it must really be something.
> 
> I'm going to try and keep him busy for at least a week, hopefully more. See if we can fix this crappy problem of ours. Everything else is more or less good (finally!).[/Q
> 
> What is the problem?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> My husband is paying attention at the moment, but that's probably because I broke down in tears over it all the other night...I am not a crier at all. So when I do, he knows it must really be something.
> 
> I'm going to try and keep him busy for at least a week, hopefully more. See if we can fix this crappy problem of ours. Everything else is more or less good (finally!).


Rooting for you! Please do consider sticking around... success stories are wonderful.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

confusedinlife said:


> CandieGirl said:
> 
> 
> > My husband is paying attention at the moment, but that's probably because I broke down in tears over it all the other night...I am not a crier at all. So when I do, he knows it must really be something.
> ...


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> confusedinlife said:
> 
> 
> > My husband is low drive to the point of making me insane.
> ...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

At most, once a week. Sometimes once a month....

It's very good when we do it. Just being able to have him that close to me is what makes it good, regardless of position, time spent doing, # of O's, etc...

Yesterday morning was quick...but I'd wanted him so badly and for so long that I came almost right away. It felt great. And a great way to start the day, too.

He worries about finishing quick these days; but I like it because for months, he just couldn't finish with me at all. Anyways, the last few times, he has been able to...so I feel like I'm doing it for him again.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> At most, once a week. Sometimes once a month....
> 
> It's very good when we do it. Just being able to have him that close to me is what makes it good, regardless of position, time spent doing, # of O's, etc...
> 
> ...


Usually we do it about once a month....once a week is history....it is always good...she always climaxes and of course so do I....wish we did more oral, but she says she likes my fingers better....so how old are you guys?


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm 41, he's 48. We're together 2 years this June, married 6 months tomorrow. 

There are many factors involving this sexless stuff...we went through several bad blips in our relationship one after another, but I feel that now we are coming out the other end. Stronger. Sex is the glue to me, so it's very important. To my Husband, not so much.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I'm 41, he's 48. We're together 2 years this June, married 6 months tomorrow.
> 
> There are many factors involving this sexless stuff...we went through several bad blips in our relationship one after another, but I feel that now we are coming out the other end. Stronger. Sex is the glue to me, so it's very important. To my Husband, not so much.


We are 60 and 61.....sex has always been more impt to me....you have to look beyond the sex to the other qualities that are impt and will be there when sex issn't...easier said than done though when you are horny...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I try...really I do. I know that sex won't always be there (possibly, anyway) but I hope that my husband is. IE through illness, tough times, etc. 

I'm new to all this marriage stuff.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I'm 41, he's 48. We're together 2 years this June, married 6 months tomorrow.
> 
> There are many factors involving this sexless stuff...we went through several bad blips in our relationship one after another, but I feel that now we are coming out the other end. Stronger. Sex is the glue to me, so it's very important. To my Husband, not so much.


LD or not, you're right that sex is the glue. I think its also a barometer of the relationship. Most relationships can't be going great outside the bedroom and terribly inside the bedroom. And I would also think that if things are going great in the bedroom, its probably not going to hell everywhere else. For short periods of time, yes, but not long term.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I try...really I do. I know that sex won't always be there (possibly, anyway) but I hope that my husband is. IE through illness, tough times, etc.
> 
> I'm new to all this marriage stuff.


That's one of my many frustrations too. I'm in the prime of my life and I feel like I'm wasting my prime. One or both of us could get sick, something medically or physically happen and the sex life is GONE. Moments to be intimate with your spouse need to be cherished, not squandered. You can't make up for them or get them back. The only guarantee we have about life is that its going to end. It's our job to live it to the fullest, not the dullest.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> LD or not, you're right that sex is the glue. I think its also a barometer of the relationship. Most relationships can't be going great outside the bedroom and terribly inside the bedroom. And I would also think that if things are going great in the bedroom, its probably not going to hell everywhere else. For short periods of time, yes, but not long term.



The issue with us is getting in the bedroom more often.....quality=good frequency=bad.....

Then there is the waiting around to see IF she is going to be in the mood.....


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

confusedinlife said:


> The issue with us is getting in the bedroom more often.....quality=good frequency=bad.....
> 
> Then there is the waiting around to see IF she is going to be in the mood.....


I HATE that word. What you tell your partner is not that you're not in the mood for sex, its that you aren't in the mood to be together. How can you say you love someone with your words and drop the M word on them when they reach out to you? It's an excuse and form of punishment IMHO. Only if you do XYZ will you make me in the mood to not reject you. Love is not a feeling, its a choice. It's not the words you say(those are important too), but it's what you do that communicate how much you love someone.


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## Screenp2 (Dec 4, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> My definition of sexless is not about a number but fulfillment. If sex is too infrequent and the sex you do have doesn't satisfy, then I would call that "sexless". I'm sure some would say its no sex at all, but to the person unfulfilled, its the same as no sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Using this definition... we have been sexless for years now. I can't remember the last time she fulfilled me sexually.

As for the act of sex.. maybe twice a year. 

She's currently in a state of depression and taking bupropian


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> I HATE that word. What you tell your partner is not that you're not in the mood for sex, its that you aren't in the mood to be together. How can you say you love someone with your words and drop the M word on them when they reach out to you? It's an excuse and form of punishment IMHO. Only if you do XYZ will you make me in the mood to not reject you. Love is not a feeling, its a choice. It's not the words you say(those are important too), but it's what you do that communicate how much you love someone.


so if you love someone you are supposed to have sex on demand?


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

confusedinlife said:


> so if you love someone you are supposed to have sex on demand?


Not to be harsh, but why so negative? Sex on demand makes it sound like the man has a greasy chicken leg in one hand, beer in the other and then demands a BJ while he watches sportscenter. I'm sure that is how a woman who is hung up on the M word views any sex that they are "forced" into. The point of view is wrong IMHO and only reinforces the lack of desire instead of overcoming it. 

If you love someone, having sex whenever either partner is in the mood (short of a physical problem) and there is an opportunity shouldn't be that complicated. Wives or husbands should be thankful that their mate is attracted to them and wants to bond with them. That in and of itself should make the other person automatically in the "mood". My spouse is attracted to me, want's to be with me and is willing to be as vulnerable as we can get between two people. Would you rather them bond with another woman in your place? Perhaps a stripper or coworker?

Did you ever make a meal that was for your spouse even though you weren't really hungry? Did you tell them not tonight dear, I'm just not in the mood to cook for you, maybe tomorrow. Did you go out of your way to make them feel guilty for being hungry when you weren't? If you've ever said to your spouse "I'm not in the mood but I'll have sex with you", it's not going to count. Sure the physical release will be there, but that statement ruins the emotional bond that should have been renewed/built from sex.

Sex for most men (myself included) is as important to our mental/physical well being as much as a good night's sleep and the food we eat. Car's don't go very far without gas. If a man were a car, sex would definitely be the gas that fuels him. A sex-deprived man is going to stall out like a car out of gas. He isn't going to be there for you when you need him, because you're not there for him when he needed you. A breakdown is going to happen because the driver didn't perform the "required" maintenance. The mechanic (let's call him the MC) is going to tell you this, charge you a big bill and smile because your therapy sessions just paid his car note. 

Women who play the mood card instead of the I love you card are going to have husbands who aren't in the mood to do things they ask for in return. I know many personal examples in my own marriage where being out of gas was 100 percent behind my failure to do what my wife asked me to do. Seriously, isn't a few minutes of undivided attention and enthusiasm in the bedroom worth it to you for a happy marriage and a man ready to take care of you?


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> Not to be harsh, but why so negative? Sex on demand makes it sound like the man has a greasy chicken leg in one hand, beer in the other and then demands a BJ while he watches sportscenter. I'm sure that is how a woman who is hung up on the M word views any sex that they are "forced" into. The point of view is wrong IMHO and only reinforces the lack of desire instead of overcoming it.
> 
> If you love someone, having sex whenever either partner is in the mood (short of a physical problem) and there is an opportunity shouldn't be that complicated. Wives or husbands should be thankful that their mate is attracted to them and wants to bond with them. That in and of itself should make the other person automatically in the "mood". My spouse is attracted to me, want's to be with me and is willing to be as vulnerable as we can get between two people. Would you rather them bond with another woman in your place? Perhaps a stripper or coworker?
> 
> ...


You make it sound much simpler than it is. I have lost track of hoe many arguementd my wife and i have had over this. It just seems like sex is not as impt to hrr as it is to me. Now she enjoys it when we do it but she does not have the drive that i do. It is a continued source of frustration for me but i am tired of arguing about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

confusedinlife said:


> so if you love someone you are supposed to have sex on demand?


 It's all a matter of perspective. Is sex is something you do not for the joy of it but because you feel obligated? When my husband indicates a desire for sex I happily comply. My reasons: I want to be with him, I want to make him happy and part of it is selfish...I love making love to him and how he makes me feel. For me it's an opportunity not a demand.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

Mrs. T said:


> It's all a matter of perspective. Is sex is something you do not for the joy of it but because you feel obligated? When my husband indicates a desire for sex I happily comply. My reasons: I want to be with him, I want to make him happy and part of it is selfish...I love making love to him and how he makes me feel. For me it's an opportunity not a demand.[/QUOT
> 
> tell that to my wife
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

my wife is also a hoarder, now she isnt to the level that you see on TV but she has taken over our bedroom and alot of the garage, she will also let the office go to a point but will eventually at least clean it up. i have done alot of research into it and have hit on the fact that she is OCD, i mean if you look at the clinical symptoms, she is the poster child. i really do think it affects things related to intimacy. she whips herself into a constant state of worry, she has a million things swirling around in her head all of the time, yet she cannot focus on one task and complete it. thats what OCD is, over analyzing everything at the cost of completing the task, i dont see why sex would be any different


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

confusedinlife said:


> Mrs. T said:
> 
> 
> > It's all a matter of perspective. Is sex is something you do not for the joy of it but because you feel obligated? When my husband indicates a desire for sex I happily comply. My reasons: I want to be with him, I want to make him happy and part of it is selfish...I love making love to him and how he makes me feel. For me it's an opportunity not a demand.
> ...


Maybe the tale of my first marriage to an alcoholic would be more appropriate for her. My reasons for avoiding sex ranged anywhere from revulsion to fear. The need and desire for sex got turned off in my brain. Divorcing him and finding a man who treats me right made all the difference. I guess I am making up for lost time now. I've seen the coin from both sides...and I definitely prefer the side I see now.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

My mother in law is a hoarder. And it would drive me absolutely nuts. Fortunately my wife is not that way. 

My wife has a thyroid problem that she won't follow-up on. She is more manic than depressive.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

confusedinlife said:


> You make it sound much simpler than it is. I have lost track of hoe many arguementd my wife and i have had over this. It just seems like sex is not as impt to hrr as it is to me. Now she enjoys it when we do it but she does not have the drive that i do. It is a continued source of frustration for me but i am tired of arguing about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



My point is IT SHOULD BE SIMPLE, even simpler than dating. Why complicate it? Complications only screw things up. Pretend you're dating for one second. Is sex complicated when you date someone? No, you go for it without conditions and usually the sex is mindblowing. You F*** like rabbits and you don't worry about tomorrow. How "good" are things going when you have that mindeset? What I'm suggesting is that sex in marriage should not just be like dating. Women don't mind when men are trying to get in their pants while dating. Sex with married couples should be even better. The stipulations should be zero and the sex should be MINDBLOWING since you know each other so well. Why should it be any different unless you're looking for to have a disappointing sex life? F*** complications and live for today because tomorrow is NEVER guaranteed, even if you're 100 percent committed and in love with your spouse!


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Mrs. T said:


> It's all a matter of perspective. Is sex is something you do not for the joy of it but because you feel obligated? When my husband indicates a desire for sex I happily comply. My reasons: I want to be with him, I want to make him happy and part of it is selfish...I love making love to him and how he makes me feel. For me it's an opportunity not a demand.


DING DING DING. One simple word change will change EVERYTHING in your sex life...from demand to opportunity. Well said!


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> DING DING DING. One simple word change will change EVERYTHING in your sex life...from demand to opportunity. Well said!


 Thanks. It's not easy but sometimes we have to reprogram the way we think about things. Instead of saying OMG he wants sex AGAIN...say, wow...he can't keep his hands off me, how lucky am I to have a man who is so loving? And then love him back!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I often feel the "approach' can affect the way the spouse interprets the request as well. Not many women can approach it as positive 

Mrs T
how does your H approach you for sex? how does he let you know he wants intimacy, not just sex?


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

deejov said:


> I often feel the "approach' can affect the way the spouse interprets the request as well. Not many women can approach it as positive
> 
> Mrs T
> how does your H approach you for sex? how does he let you know he wants intimacy, not just sex?


He knows I like sponteneity...the other day he had taken a shower and was almost dressed when I finally got around to getting in the shower. Imagine my surprise when he disrobed and snuck back in the shower, caressing me from behind. It took my breath away, I didn't stand a chance, the devil! This type of thing happens about twice a month where I get ambushed (I say that in a good way). It is enough to keep things hot and creative but not so much that the surprise tactics are no longer effective. The rest of the time he'll initiate with carresses and kisses. If we are already in bed (I am a morning girl) he'll take my arm and drape it across his chest and my wandering hand will do the rest. 
As for him having to let me know he wants intimacy and not just sex, that's not an issue for us, never has been. No matter how it starts it is always intimate. You can't laugh as much before during and after sex as we do and it not be an intimate act. Yes...you heard right, laughing.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks for sharing, Mrs T
A true aggresive confident man... he initiates even when he wants you to do it.. by putting your arm where he wants it. 

He takes the time to get you aroused. Awesome!

The flip side to this is when men do not want to light the fuse... they stop doing what your husband does. They grab a boob. They say "lets go". They ask, while standing 2 feet away. They shake their weenie at you. Lots of ways to put it... when it is the same as saying "without confidence" or without FEELING. Just sex. 

I almost wish someone would ask the sexless spouses... "how do you initiate sex"? 

It seems that the happy sexual couples have a common theme. They take the time to get each other aroused, whatever works for their spouse.


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## Headache2011 (Feb 9, 2011)

And to think I was *****ing about not getting it but every 4 weeks. So from what it seems some of the folks that have been married for 20 to 30 plus years the sex declines. in the 10 years we've been married it went from 4 times a week to maybe once a month. If anyone finds a great answer to it I'd love to know how to make it more often. Good luck everyone.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

Headache2011 said:


> And to think I was *****ing about not getting it but every 4 weeks. So from what it seems some of the folks that have been married for 20 to 30 plus years the sex declines. in the 10 years we've been married it went from 4 times a week to maybe once a month. If anyone finds a great answer to it I'd love to know how to make it more often. Good luck everyone.


i would love to know the answer to that as well
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

confusedinlife said:


> You make it sound much simpler than it is. I have lost track of hoe many arguementd my wife and i have had over this. It just seems like sex is not as impt to hrr as it is to me. Now she enjoys it when we do it but she does not have the drive that i do. It is a continued source of frustration for me but i am tired of arguing about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually it should be that simple. I know getting an LD person to that realization is NOT easy.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

phantomfan said:


> Actually it should be that simple. I know getting an LD person to that realization is NOT easy.


you have me confused....what do you mean?
Ld?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

confusedinlife said:


> you have me confused....what do you mean?
> Ld?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LD is someone with a low drive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

I changed from LD to HD...the hubby can't keep up. My LD was pretty much a mental block though and it was also a mental choice to become unblocked.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

deejov said:


> The flip side to this is when men do not want to light the fuse... they stop doing what your husband does. They grab a boob. They say "lets go". They ask, while standing 2 feet away. They shake their weenie at you. Lots of ways to put it... when it is the same as saying "without confidence" or without FEELING. Just sex.
> 
> I almost wish someone would ask the sexless spouses... "*how do you initiate sex*"?
> 
> It seems that the happy sexual couples have a common theme. They take the time to get each other aroused, whatever works for their spouse.


So, has anyone asked yet???? And do you mean the LD (or ND) or the beggar? How does the beggar ask...please, please, please, please, please (like the text I sent my H the other day). Because I'm pretty sure the LD/ND doesn't bother initiating at all.

In our house, my H's idea of initiation is to rub himself against me in bed. If I don't respond to that, then I'm the one 'refusing' him in his mind...If I want sex, I have to take things into my own hands (pun intended) and not take no for an answer. Things move along nicely from there, but if I leave him alone and say nothing, waitig for him to do something, well, you know what well known creek that leaves me up.

Fortunately for me, we seem to be on an upswing these last few days.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> So, has anyone asked yet???? And do you mean the LD (or ND) or the beggar? How does the beggar ask...please, please, please, please, please (like the text I sent my H the other day). Because I'm pretty sure the LD/ND doesn't bother initiating at all.
> 
> In our house, my H's idea of initiation is to rub himself against me in bed. If I don't respond to that, then I'm the one 'refusing' him in his mind...If I want sex, I have to take things into my own hands (pun intended) and not take no for an answer. Things move along nicely from there, but if I leave him alone and say nothing, waitig for him to do something, well, you know what well known creek that leaves me up.
> 
> Fortunately for me, we seem to be on an upswing these last few days.


Thats awesome CG. I fully admit that I don't do 100 percent of the wooing or deep conversations that I used to. That level of wooing isn't practical. I know all about her now and we're married. That doesn't eliminate the need for woo, but it does change the dynamic from a sprint to the altar to a marathon to the end. It should also change the dynamic for sex from one of getting to know your partner intimately to knowing what they want and taking care of it with a good attitude. 

I know us guys are immature and we do resort sometimes to the weenie jokes. That's not what we consider foreplay. It's a joke. It's the kind of joke we'd do with our buddies if we were in a locker room and comfortable enough with our sexuality to engage in penis stupidity. I know women don't get that. We do need ya to be one of the guys from time to time. Roll your eyes, say gross and move on. 

I know our means and methods of initiation change over time too. Things get busy and life gets crazy. When that happens, guys sex drives usually go up. I know mine does. And there should never be a doubt that a guy is in the mood. I'm in the mood if I have a heartbeat. Our brains almost always have one screen on the playboy channel. If a woman (mine included) doesn't like the way I initate, she can take what I do, and show me what she wants not by words but by how she responds. In other words, rather than tell me know and roll over (playing hard to get for no reason), turn over and kiss me. I'm gonna get the idea that's what she wants without getting rejected. Another thing that kind of response shows is I'm into sex and into sex with you, lets get this train to the station...very hot and reassuring from our point of view. 

That's the principle some martial arts use as a weapon. Use the momentum or strength of the other person against them. In this case, its going with what they start with and using it for your advantage. If turning over and/or playing hard to get causes problems, then that has to change. I think the woman (in my case) has the ability to make small adjustments that will train the other person if they forgot or if things changed. Just MHO.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Good thoughts, Phanton and CandieGirl.

From a woman's perspective.... hearing men write about things like:

- "I don't even ask. She didn't give off the vibe I was looking for so I did not bother. Her body language said she was too tense and I'm sure she would have said no".
-Men write about being rejected, when they have done the dishes, cleaned the house, x,y,z but I don't see posts that say any of THIS:

"I know exactly how to push my wife's buttons. She gets very aroused when I kiss her neck, rub the small of her back, caress her.... insert rest of 'moves'. I do these things when I want her, and she just does NOT respond" (Anyone have this happen???)

My point was (sorry Phantom) that I'm not sure a LOT of husbands who are sexless even KNOW the moves that click their wives into "do me" mode. I'm serious.

How many women on this board will agree to the following:

You can be mad as heck at him. Doesn't matter what it is. You can be tired, feeling unappreciated, and worn down. 
If he touches you in the right way, pursues you for the whole 2 minutes that it takes... you are putty in his hands. Because he knows just what to do. 

Am I the only one that feels that way?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

deejov said:


> Good thoughts, Phanton and CandieGirl.
> 
> From a woman's perspective.... hearing men write about things like:
> 
> ...



Over here ...me! This is exactly my position. As I have posted elsewhere, my wife had always been orgasmic and I know what moves turn her on. But in time it was like the air went out of her balloon and it didn't matter if she could orgasm she didn't want to go there. She went from mostly initiating to never. The sex became dull and it seemed she was just tolerating it for my benefit until she told me that was what she was doing.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Lionel,
I did read a few of your posts. Your wife seemed to just suddenly lose her drive poof gone. Not sure if it was hormonal or what the reasons were... might have been medical, she gives the same reasons my H did. "I don't know". And years later it suddenly returned. I would love to hear more about your story as you feel comfortable sharing


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

deejov said:


> You can be mad as heck at him. Doesn't matter what it is. You can be tired, feeling unappreciated, and worn down.
> If he touches you in the right way, pursues you for the whole 2 minutes that it takes... you are putty in his hands. Because he knows just what to do.
> 
> Am I the only one that feels that way?


This is sort of the approach that is championed by (among others) MEM, SA, Catherine, Enchantment et al.

It depends on one partner knowing the moves to make, and the other partner being prepared to allow those moves to be made.

Finding the moves that work requires one partner to be willing to keep trying and the other partner to instruct, inform, guide, encourage and direct their efforts. If one partner is willing to try to learn the moves but the other sits there like a bump on a log letting them work totally without guidance and feedback, this has virtually no chance of working.

The other thing is that in the situation you describe above Deejov, a lot of people would not allow their partner to do this even if their partners do know how. Unless their desire is spontaneous and (crucially) present at the outset, they are not willing, under any circumstances, to allow themselves to be warmed up.

The evidence of these boards suggests that you are 
a) not unique;
b) doing exactly the right thing;
c) rare.

Sorry, but two out of three isn't bad, is it?


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

deejov said:


> Good thoughts, Phanton and CandieGirl.
> 
> From a woman's perspective.... hearing men write about things like:
> 
> ...


*Men don't know because we don't tell them.* Ladies, it takes two to tango...if the husband is clueless as to what makes you tick and you really do want to have some sort of sexual life then...tell him, show him, whatever it takes. He's your husband, don't be shy. Part of the responsibility for sexual satisfaction is our own. He's going to be grateful when you do open up to him, it will mean more satisfaction for both of you.

deejov, your last paragraph is spot on. My husband knows just how to get me out of a funky mood and get my engine revved up. But, I had to give him hints at first. Thank goodness he is a quick and eager learner. I *AM* putty in his hands and I love it!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sawney,
I do understand this a bit better now, since in the past few months the bitterness of resentment would not allow me to let these things happen. 6 months ago.. I would have melted.

But if a partner is doing the right moves... and there is no response, then at least you know the issue is outside the bedroom.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Mrs T
It takes two, absolutely. 
But I do believe the MAN has to lead in the learning. If he has the confidence to try, to make his partner feel comfortable, to ask the questions, to help her get over the good girl syndrome, etc.

Sure, she can read some books and go to a few websites to learn how to be more sexual. But most women learn how to explore their sexuality through their male partner. The trust and comfort has to be there.
It's sad to say, but the covenant of marriage itself does not mean security and comfort to a woman. I know a lot of people view it that way. We are married, of course I am committed to you. Not enough says the female ego sometimes. Prove it.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

deejov,
I can see what your saying but I guess I was never affected by the good girl syndrome nor felt insecure or uncomfortable about my sexuality. I was a bit of a hellion in my teenage years and my first sexual partner was older than me...I was 17 and he was 23. My parents did not approve of him at all, rightfully so. I shouldn't put the blame on him, truthfully I think I seduced him. Anyway my point is he taught me to be unashamed and assertive and I've never had any qualms talking about sex. It is a shame that so many women are uncomfortable with the subject and expect that their man should automatically know what to do to please them. A man should be willing to learn but to put the entire thing on him isn't fair IMO.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

confusedinlife said:


> how long have you been married?


Soon to be 7 years.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> This is sort of the approach that is championed by (among others) MEM, SA, Catherine, Enchantment et al.
> 
> It depends on one partner knowing the moves to make, and the other partner being prepared to allow those moves to be made.
> 
> ...


How can I get my husband to even want to find those moves? Why does it always have to be me? When we first started out we were in that love-haze, where we just did it all the time, without thinking. 2 years on, and the haze has lifted, and I now realize that he doesnt have a clue. I'm not surprised his previous marriage was sexless as well; the difference here is that I'm not willing to go sexless...she was.

He's sexy when he gets going. But he sort of just waits for it to happen, instead of steering it himself. I don't understand.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Mrs. T said:


> *Men don't know because we don't tell them.* Ladies, it takes two to tango...if the husband is clueless as to what makes you tick and you really do want to have some sort of sexual life then...tell him, show him, whatever it takes. He's your husband, don't be shy. Part of the responsibility for sexual satisfaction is our own. He's going to be grateful when you do open up to him, it will mean more satisfaction for both of you.
> 
> deejov, your last paragraph is spot on. My husband knows just how to get me out of a funky mood and get my engine revved up. But, I had to give him hints at first. Thank goodness he is a quick and eager learner. I *AM* putty in his hands and I love it!


I tell him. And tell him. And show him. Guide him. He still has no idea! Part of him doesn't like to (or refuses to) behave as a sexual being. Which is why I started my 'embarassed' thread last week...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I've tried everything....the only thing that works is when I initiate, lead, ask, manouvre, whatever you want to call it. 

It would be nice to feel a little desire (from my husband) every now and then. At the moment, we are having regular sex, and it's 99.9% my doing.

The good thing is that he's noticed I'm in a better mood; his words "You go kinda crazy when you're not having sex.".

So at least he is noticing SOMETHING, even if I can walk around nude and he doesn't even glance up...


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I tell him. And tell him. And show him. Guide him. He still has no idea! Part of him doesn't like to (or refuses to) behave as a sexual being. Which is why I started my 'embarassed' thread last week...


 CandieGirl I haven't read the "embarassed" thread (I will though) but I have a question. You tell him and show him and guide him as to what turns you on, have you found out the same things about him? What turns him on, what his buttons are? My husband and I have gone through a slump period where he just didn't seem interested in sex and when I finally questioned him it was something new I had read and was trying out on him. I read that men like stimulation in the zone between the scrotum and the anus. So I started playing around in the area and apparently he didn't like it. Several times he lost his erection. So instead of dealing with that he started avoiding me when I indicated I was in the mood. Instead of telling me what was bothering him he would rather go without sex I guess.  I'm wondering if someting similar is happening in your situation? 
Another thing, it seems not to matter how long you are with someone you continue to learn lilttle things about them. I recently found out that while my husband likes pretty lingerie he is more turned on when I am wearing one of his white T-shirts to bed (as long as I am bare underneath). Here I've been spending a fortune on things from Victorias Secret when I would have been better off with the $10 Hanes three pack of t-shirts. Gotta love it


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

He just gets too shy to talk about anything...he says he's not used to talking about it. We're polar opposites. I learned very young how to have sex. How to have good sex! He buries his face in the covers...

But yes, I do try and explore all his possibilities...once I get him going, he's usually fine, it's just that it takes a lot (most of the time) to get him there.

He loves when I play with him beneath...loves to have a finger inside, too ;-) I guess I just am a bit resentful that all the 'play' has to be focused on him...what about me???


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> "I know exactly how to push my wife's buttons. She gets very aroused when I kiss her neck, rub the small of her back, caress her.... insert rest of 'moves'. I do these things when I want her, and she just does NOT respond" (Anyone have this happen???)


Actually I have had that happen to me.

It's important to recognize that not all women (or men, for that matter) have physical triggers for arousal, or the triggers (or arousal) invoke discomfort or shame.

My ex, for one, found sex to be _inherently_ unappealing (at least with me) to a big extent. Instead of a typical reaction for a lady (being valued and cared-for leading to openness to sex), the prospect of sex itself killed the feel-good vibe. You would have thought she was contemplating sex with her brother.

The net result was that, while there was some sex, it was pity sex, attention-seeking sex, or procreative sex. And, sex always had lots of restrictions. Actual uninhibited, "going for it" sex was non-existent (as in never happened once) over 16 years.

She can't be the only one.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

DTO, a good point. some people are damaged. For many reasons. The truth maybe in some cases that the lacklustre result you got is the best they can do. Nobody misses what they never had in the first place.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

deejov said:


> Mrs T
> It takes two, absolutely.
> But I do believe the MAN has to lead in the learning. If he has the confidence to try, to make his partner feel comfortable, to ask the questions, to help her get over the good girl syndrome, etc.
> 
> ...


This hits the wall where the expectation is that the man makes 100% of the running 100% of the time, because for whatever reason the wife feels she shouldn't have to. 

The other time it hits the wall is with those people (men AND women, mark you) who no matter what someone does to support them will NOT place their trust in another. There are people who for whatever reason seem incapable of not requiring total autonomy at all times.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

CandieGirl said:


> I've tried everything....the only thing that works is when I initiate, lead, ask, manouvre, whatever you want to call it.
> 
> It would be nice to feel a little desire (from my husband) every now and then. At the moment, we are having regular sex, and it's 99.9% my doing.
> 
> ...





CandieGirl said:


> He just gets too shy to talk about anything...he says he's not used to talking about it. We're polar opposites. I learned very young how to have sex. How to have good sex! He buries his face in the covers...
> 
> But yes, I do try and explore all his possibilities...once I get him going, he's usually fine, it's just that it takes a lot (most of the time) to get him there.
> 
> He loves when I play with him beneath...loves to have a finger inside, too ;-) I guess I just am a bit resentful that all the 'play' has to be focused on him...what about me???


Do some reading through this site. Do a quick tally of posters (both men and women) saying what you are saying. When you get to several hundred, you'll realise that it isn't that uncommon, but that truly effective solutions are few and far between.

Why? They largely require the other person to want to change. You'll find a ton of advice about how to make yourself the best person you can and up your sex rank and lower the temperature and spin round and round on the spot, but unless and until the other person feels like responding, you're potless.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Do some reading through this site. Do a quick tally of posters (both men and women) saying what you are saying. When you get to several hundred, you'll realise that it isn't that uncommon, but that truly effective solutions are few and far between.
> 
> Why? They largely require the other person to want to change. You'll find a ton of advice about how to make yourself the best person you can and up your sex rank and lower the temperature and spin round and round on the spot, but unless and until the other person feels like responding, you're potless.


I agree with you, and I am weary of searching this site (and the entire internet) to try and find a solution. Looks like I'm on my own, because I'm hard pressed to find any book/blog/site that offers any advice at all to a woman in my situation. Everything seems geared toward men; as though men are the only ones who want a sex life.

But then, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm intended to figure it out on my own.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

deejov said:


> Good thoughts, Phanton and CandieGirl.
> 
> From a woman's perspective.... hearing men write about things like:
> 
> ...


If there was a simple trick like that, trust me, I'm not a stupid man. The path to the bedroom would have a groove burned into the floor. If kissing on the neck was it, she'd have "i love you" in hickies on her neck, no joke. 

For me, I do my part and I give the best of everything I have to her because its the right thing to do. That in and of itself should be the "it" as far as I'm concerned. My need to be with her should be enough to give me her best even when its not her favorite thing to do at the time. Both in and out of the bedroom, I think that attitude is the emotional glue that keeps a relationship going strong.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I've tried everything....the only thing that works is when I initiate, lead, ask, manouvre, whatever you want to call it.
> 
> It would be nice to feel a little desire (from my husband) every now and then. At the moment, we are having regular sex, and it's 99.9% my doing.
> 
> ...


If our sex life was regular and 99.9 percent my doing, I'd be ok with that. Would I like more active partner, sure. I fight not getting the chance PERIOD. Doesn't matter if I'm affectionate, do everything right or not.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

I should clarify that it's only been a week...for months, almost our entire marriage, it was once a month, maybe twice...I'm waiting for him to revert back into 'no', 'I'm sick', 'I'm exhausted', 'whatever other excuse you feel like inserting HERE'....

He is doing it to shut me up, basically. Once he gets fed up of it, he'll want to stop again.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

CandieGirl said:


> I agree with you, and I am weary of searching this site (and the entire internet) to try and find a solution. Looks like I'm on my own, because I'm hard pressed to find any book/blog/site that offers any advice at all to a woman in my situation. Everything seems geared toward men; as though men are the only ones who want a sex life.
> 
> But then, maybe that's it. Maybe I'm intended to figure it out on my own.


There may be more resources for men than women or geared towards them, but based on what I've seen here, its not gender specific. Even though men's sex drive is much more simplistic, when the switch is off, it's not happening for either. The attitude short circuit from my observations is a common point of failure. To me, it seems simple enough. If you're not in the mood and its important to your partner, make a choice, get help, fight, do until you get there mentally or physically. Build a bridge and get over it, whatever "it" is.


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## Mrs. T (Aug 5, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> *For me, I do my part and I give the best of everything I have to her because its the right thing to do. That in and of itself should be the "it" as far as I'm concerned. My need to be with her should be enough to give me her best even when its not her favorite thing to do at the time. Both in and out of the bedroom, I think that attitude is the emotional glue that keeps a relationship going strong*.


Love what you said!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> Isn't this really it and they are in their comfort zone.
> 
> It's getting them out of that comfort zone that some have a
> hard time with because it means that you too also need to get out of your comfort zone.....take action, do something, look ahead at what may happen.
> It's looking ahead at the negative side of taking action that prevents many from doing something.


Whilst I think people over-think the potential negatives, there's a good reason why they do think about them. It's because they very well can backfire and go wrong. On the one hand, your partner might respond to your sexual suggestion with enthusiasm and ask why you didn't ask years ago, that they wished they had the nerve to and it becomes a regular thing.

On the other, they might call you a filthy minded pervert and you find that this suggestion has added 25mm rebar to the existing wall of resentment.

It isn't a risk-free investment.




> I believe that in many cases, if a marriage is strong, it can with stand some fiction, discussion, heated debated, trying different things, even walking away from the marriage for a period of time, heating things up even more.


In my opinion, many marriages are like a diamond. In certain directions, they are unbreakably strong, but a gentle tap in the right place and they can split. And unless you are very sure what you are doing, a tap along one of those fault lines, whether it's sex, money, children, status or whatever, can have very serious consequences, no matter how strong the marriage is in other ways.



> If that person really loves and cares about you, then they should respond and want to make a change, move things forward for the better.


If there's one thing that comes out over and over and over again on this site it's that relying on someone else to do the right thing when they aren't going to benefit is chancy at the very best.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Whilst I think people over-think the potential negatives, there's a good reason why they do think about them. It's because they very well can backfire and go wrong. On the one hand, your partner might respond to your sexual suggestion with enthusiasm and ask why you didn't ask years ago, that they wished they had the nerve to and it becomes a regular thing.
> 
> On the other, they might call you a filthy minded pervert and you find that this suggestion has added 25mm rebar to the existing wall of resentment.
> 
> It isn't a risk-free investment.


Of course, but what in life is? Anything that is worth while involves some risk.



> In my opinion, many marriages are like a diamond. In certain directions, they are unbreakably strong, but a gentle tap in the right place and they can split. And unless you are very sure what you are doing, a tap along one of those fault lines, whether it's sex, money, children, status or whatever, can have very serious consequences, no matter how strong the marriage is in other ways.


While this is inherently true, I am not sure what value can be taken from it. How many us are truly sure when we approach a problem with our spouse? If we were sure, it would likely not be a problem. If we are not sure, then do we not address the problem for fear of spliting the marriage?



> If there's one thing that comes out over and over and over again on this site it's that relying on someone else to do the right thing when they aren't going to benefit is chancy at the very best.


I agree with this, in so far as benefit includes avoiding an unpleasant result. Some people are just incapable of doing something unless there is something in it for themselves.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Of course, but what in life is? Anything that is worth while involves some risk.


Clearly, but a lot of people are what is referred to as "risk averse". Whether in talking to their partner about sex or financial investment, their view on the cost-benefit analysis is very conservative. And in some cases, with good reason. I don't think risk aversion is an unqualified good thing, but to many people who have been even a bit bitten in the past, they feel they have a goodish reason to be like that.



> While this is inherently true, I am not sure what value can be taken from it. How many us are truly sure when we approach a problem with our spouse? If we were sure, it would likely not be a problem. If we are not sure, then do we not address the problem for fear of spliting the marriage?


Most people have a fairly shrewd idea of where the fault lines are. They know if their spouse is OK with being tied to the bed but is going to go apesh!t over a suggestion to invest three months mortgage in a high-return higher risk bond. Or vice versa. If it's going apesh!t over something sexually pretty out there, or a significant amount of money, then it's OK - the fault line is fairly stable, I suppose you'd say.

If your partner is going to go doolally over keeping the lights on or you spending twenty quid, you've got trouble. It simply isn't something you can discuss rationally, or even argue about like adults.




> I agree with this, in so far as benefit includes avoiding an unpleasant result. Some people are just incapable of doing something unless there is something in it for themselves.


But most of the suggestions work on the principle that you can do something to make them decide to do just that, which is a bit of problem, I'd say.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Clearly, but a lot of people are what is referred to as "risk averse". Whether in talking to their partner about sex or financial investment, their view on the cost-benefit analysis is very conservative. And in some cases, with good reason. I don't think risk aversion is an unqualified good thing, but to many people who have been even a bit bitten in the past, they feel they have a goodish reason to be like that.


Then what? Recognizing that people are risk averse does nothing to address the problems. Getting them to see that risk may be the only way to solve the problem, so that they truly understand the risks of both doing something and not doing something seems the better way.



> Most people have a fairly shrewd idea of where the fault lines are. They know if their spouse is OK with being tied to the bed but is going to go apesh!t over a suggestion to invest three months mortgage in a high-return higher risk bond. Or vice versa. If it's going apesh!t over something sexually pretty out there, or a significant amount of money, then it's OK - the fault line is fairly stable, I suppose you'd say.
> 
> If your partner is going to go doolally over keeping the lights on or you spending twenty quid, you've got trouble. It simply isn't something you can discuss rationally, or even argue about like adults.


I have to say I disagree. If people really knew where the fault lines were, they could better navigate these issues. They may know were the surface faults are, the ones that will create immediate issues. I know my wife will yell at me if I don't take out the trash. But they don't know where the deep ones are, the ones that will either invoke change or destroy the marriage. 



> But most of the suggestions work on the principle that you can do something to make them decide to do just that, which is a bit of problem, I'd say.


I don't see that. What I do see is that you can only change yourself and your reaction to boundaries. You set those boundaries up, see how your spouse reacts, then figure out what is acceptable. Sometimes that results in a change by your spouse, but sometimes it does not. With that information, you can then decide what to do.


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## zzzmelzzz (Mar 14, 2012)

*Re: sexless marriage*

I have recently been reading posts from other wives experiencing the same thing and figured it is about time I share my story……

I will start from when I first noticed a problem, I hope to get good honest advise…even if it’s not something I want to hear!

Let me start by saying I met my common-law husband 11 years ago, when I was 18 years old and he was 23 years old. (We are 5 years apart) We dated for 5 years before purchasing a home together. 



If someone had told me 10 years ago that at the ripe age of 29 years old, I would be in a sexless relationship; I would have told the person they were crazy! - Husbands want sex ALL the time……….. Don’t they???

I guess I was crazy to think everything would stay the same after we moved in together and had our son. I cannot pin point what happen and what I possibly did to contribute to this sexless union! But I am sure that we are both equally to blame. I noticed a drop in our sex-life in March 2007, approximately 1 year after moving in together. It started from 4-5 times a week to once a week. It was not a gradual decrease, but instead pretty sudden. I noticed my hubby was spending a lot more time on the computer. He would mostly go on the net while I was still at work; essentially only when he was home alone. As I would walk in the door from work he would be shutting down the computer. This behavior carried on for a few weeks, I decided to play ‘private investigator” and check the history on the computer. I was shocked to find all kinds of pornography! I decided to leave it alone for the moment I did not want to bring up the issue and embarrass him. It quickly turned into what seemed to be an addition. He would watch porn daily; He would even wake up at 6AM on the weekend to go watch porn. (This used to be when we would have sex, Saturday/Sunday Morning) Why would he make such an effort to wake up early and sneak down to the basement to watch porn at 6am, when I was in bed willing and able? 



After about 2 months of porn surfing, I guess he got bored with it and decided to up the ante. He starting going on social network sites and re-connecting with his ex-girlfriends. He would tell them how beautiful they were and even ask for their numbers to make plans to “meet up for a coffee”. I also found profiles on dating websites like Match.com® | The Leading Online Dating Site for Singles & Personals where he was looking to meet women for “fun”. I remember reading his profile quote “I love you long time” and feeling so sick to my stomach! I knew this was his profile, how many men live in our town with the same name and postal code!! 

All the while I just sat back, waiting and watching in devastation.



It then started to get worse, I would come home from work and he wasn’t home. I would call his cell and he would not answer! He would then show up at home later on. But by this time I had already gone on the computer and read that he had made plans to meet up with his Ex. If it was JUST a COFFEE, why hide it from me? Why tell me that you met up with your male friends. ……You only lie if you have something to hide……Am I right?



I started checking his cell phone records and matching the bill with the numbers multiple ex-girlfriends had given him to “make plans”. He was calling them while I was at work!! At that point I feel he was “attempting to cheat”.



Let me also mention that through the years my sexual desires for him have not diminished! In fact I think they may have increased because I wasn’t getting ANY intimacy.

Along with sex decreasing, he also stopped holding my hand, kissing, hugging and even communicating with me.



On one Friday night he had made plans to meet up with an EX –girlfriend. Because I had been reading his messages, I was aware of his plans. I actually made something up that night to prevent him from going, he was so mad!!!

Later that EX, sent him a nasty message because he stood her up!



When I finally worked up the courage to ask him in June 2007, he denied everything! I had to confess that I had been tracking him on the computer and phone records. He quickly turned it around on me and put all the blame on me for snooping around!



He seemed to feel bad for hurting me and I had thought that from that point things would get better. Things did improve; he got better at hiding it!!!!!!!

This battle went on for months and months and months, and my self esteem and self worth diminished!

This carried on from 2007 all the way to January 2009 – I was pregnant with our son from April 2008 – Feb 2009. 



We had a big blow out in Jan 2009(the night before my baby shower) he left and met up with a girl. I knew again because I was still checking his emails. I called him and yelled at him on the phone, and he hang up on me. I found MSN conversations that night, where he told this woman that he was not excited to have a baby and that he thought of leaving me all the time! I was devastated sitting in front of this computer reading these horrible things. Why would he tell HER and NOT TELL ME. There was nothing she could do about his problems, why not talk to me – The ONE person that could try to make changes. He didn’t even give me a chance!



So, here I was 8 months pregnant and about to have a baby with a complete dough bag that should have been home with his pregnant WIFE!!!! – Now my mind shifted from him trying to cheat on me to him betraying our Family! 



That night I decided to write him a letter, because he would NEVER listen when I would try to talk to him. The letter was about 10 pages long. I poured my heart out, hoping it would make him realize what he was doing and how much he was hurting me. After writing the letter I left the house, so that I would not be there when he got home from his rendezvous. I have no idea what time he got home night, but I came back at around 2:00am. I found the letter shredded in the garbage can. 

We never talked about it after that….



I had a baby boy on Feb of 2009 – Either I got distracted with the baby and no longer noticed or he really stopped in his tracks. Either way things seemed to improve. (Excluding the sex) The sex actually got even worse.



Today, we have sex approximately every 4-6 weeks! – Which at my age is a sexless marriage in my eyes….. We are having sex 8-12 times A YEAR! And the sex lasts a few minutes!! I am sorry but 15-20 minutes of sex per year is just NOT cutting it.



My son just recently turned 3 years old.



I do everything for my family, I consider myself to be a good wife and mother. I do all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, I make his lunch every day for work, food shopping etc.

In the 11 years we have been together I have not changed much in appearance either. And I desire sex and am willing to try anything!



The reason I am writing this entry is because the PORN has started again! And if the porn watching has started again, then what else will he start doing when he gets bored of the porn ….???

I cannot sit back and watch this happen again! I don’t think I will be able to bounce back a second time, besides now we have a child in the mix.



I want nothing more than for this relationship to work, I am willing to do anything in my power to safe my family and keep it together, however I refuse to be sloppy seconds to porn and other women.



Let me also add, in the past I have suggest counseling and he told me that I should go alone because I am the problem, not him.


Please help me!!!!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then what? Recognizing that people are risk averse does nothing to address the problems. Getting them to see that risk may be the only way to solve the problem, so that they truly understand the risks of both doing something and not doing something seems the better way.


Recognising that people are risk averse means that you know that saying to them "Go ahead, what's the worst that can happen?" is waste of time. It means you realise you have to deal with the how and the why. The problem is they may very well truly understand the risks - that's why they're risk averse.

In risk assessment, there are two parts: what can happen, and the probability that it actually occurs. The combination of these gives you the "residual risk". If the potential result is truly awful, but the probability is very low, most people think it's a justified risk. As the probability of something bad happening goes up, the attractiveness of the deal diminishes.

It may be that people are overthinking not only the severity of the potential consequences, but their probability too. Then again, they may not. Knowing that someone is risk-averse is the first step to finding out why and suggesting a course. And it might be that once you are in possession of all the facts you too will say "No, I wouldn't do that either..."





> I have to say I disagree. If people really knew where the fault lines were, they could better navigate these issues. They may know were the surface faults are, the ones that will create immediate issues. I know my wife will yell at me if I don't take out the trash. But they don't know where the deep ones are, the ones that will either invoke change or destroy the marriage.


In the past you asked you wife about oral sex, doggy style, roleplay, w.h.y. You were polite, non-threatening and suitably assertive. She blew up, threw a fit, went apesh!t each and every time. Accused you of being perverted etc.

You know that sex is a major fault line. For the sexual issues substitute investing in a new company, changing your job, moving house or whatever.

People quite often do know.

Whilst they don't do it in any formal way, they then do a cost / benefit analysis. They know what the potential benefit is, and they know the cost. They also have a reasonably shrewd idea of what the probability of achieving the benefit versus incurring the cost is. If the probability of achieving the benefit is vanishingly small and the changes of incurring the cost are a practical certainty, they won't do it. Why would they? 



> I don't see that. What I do see is that you can only change yourself and your reaction to boundaries. You set those boundaries up, see how your spouse reacts, then figure out what is acceptable. Sometimes that results in a change by your spouse, but sometimes it does not. With that information, you can then decide what to do.


Exactly. But at the end of the day, you're gambling on them reacting positively. Otherwise, why bother?


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

*Dean* said:


> Why bother?
> 
> Because many many men on their dealth bed will look back and wished
> they would have done something about a wife that can but won't in a Sexless marriage.
> ...


"Because many many men on their dealth bed will look back and wished 
they would have done something about a wife that can but won't in a Sexless marriage."

I would hope that I and many others would have other thoughts on their deathbed other than we did not get enough sex....if that is what you are thinking about when you are dying, you have lost the true meaning of love and of life in general.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Dean* said:


> Why bother?
> 
> Because many many men on their dealth bed will look back and wished
> they would have done something about a wife that can but won't in a Sexless marriage.
> ...


Short answer? Her giving a sh!t. 

But all the boundaries you set, the cooling off you do, the manning up you undertake and no matter how many times you gyrate through 180 degrees, it won't make someone give a sh!t who isn't actually interested or doesn't see why they should be or have any need to.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Exactly. But at the end of the day, you're gambling on them reacting positively. Otherwise, why bother?


Of course. That is the nature of the gamble.

As I have thought it over last night, I realize my real issue with your post here is that it seems to advocate not doing anything, because either the spouse will reject the person again, or the spouse will react poorly. It seems to be a perscription to sit and take it because something painful might happen. Perhaps not your intent, but certainly how it reads. I guess that works for some, but life is not that way. Rewards don't come without risk. There are very few sure things or free lunches. 

Finally, you only get one life - there are no do-overs or rewinds - and being afraid all the time is a waste.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Short answer? Her giving a sh!t.
> 
> But all the boundaries you set, the cooling off you do, the manning up you undertake and no matter how many times you gyrate through 180 degrees, it won't make someone give a sh!t who isn't actually interested or doesn't see why they should be or have any need to.


So sit and do nothing? Just take it because you have to? Maybe that works for you, but I will never recommend that.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So sit and do nothing? Just take it because you have to? Maybe that works for you, but I will never recommend that.


I think he has done something and is doing something but it is not working.....I understand his point....


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

[



Tall Average Guy said:


> Of course. That is the nature of the gamble.
> 
> As I have thought it over last night, I realize my real issue with your post here is that it seems to advocate not doing anything, because either the spouse will reject the person again, or the spouse will react poorly. It seems to be a perscription to sit and take it because something painful might happen. Perhaps not your intent, but certainly how it reads. I guess that works for some, but life is not that way. Rewards don't come without risk. There are very few sure things or free lunches.
> 
> Finally, you only get one life - there are no do-overs or rewinds - and being afraid all the time is a waste.





Tall Average Guy said:


> So sit and do nothing? Just take it because you have to? Maybe that works for you, but I will never recommend that.


I'm very lucky in that I'm not on sh!t street like lots of the posters here are. However, I have a lot of friends and acquaintances who are, and I try to offer them help. I also try to share with people what does and doesn't work for them. 

I wouldn't suggest doing nothing. On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest doing something you are 99.9% sure is going to fail miserably either, just because doing something is better than doing nothing.

The problem a lot of these men get to is that NOTHING they try has ever worked, they've run out of things to do and ANYTHING looks like a good way of getting shot down.

Crazy one in a million acts work well in films and books where reality is suspended and the character has no investment beyond the end of the scene. In real life, they don't. Unless there's some realistic probability of achieving a useful end, it's not merely a risk, it's a bad risk.

I know people say if you get beaten 99 times, go back in the ring and have another go. But the chances are if you do, you're going to get beaten the 100th, 101st, 102nd and every other time too, like you were the first 99 times.

You're right that there are no free lunches, but you have to balance the risk for the value of the lunch. No sandwich is worth a good kicking, and if it's a game you know you can't win, playing just makes you a bigger mug.

And remember, the only people who consistently do well from gambling are bookmakers. Punters dont


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Crazy one in a million acts work well in films and books where reality is suspended and the character has no investment beyond the end of the scene. In real life, they don't. Unless there's some realistic probability of achieving a useful end, it's not merely a risk, it's a bad risk.


But the vast majority of the advice given here (and which you imply should not be bothered with) is not one-in-a-million odds, or lottery style. These are ideas that have a reasonable chance of working and that also help the individual gain strength to decide what to do.



> I know people say if you get beaten 99 times, go back in the ring and have another go. But the chances are if you do, you're going to get beaten the 100th, 101st, 102nd and every other time too, like you were the first 99 times.
> 
> You're right that there are no free lunches, but you have to balance the risk for the value of the lunch. No sandwich is worth a good kicking, and if it's a game you know you can't win, playing just makes you a bigger mug.
> 
> And remember, the only people who consistently do well from gambling are bookmakers. Punters dont


Then change the game. Change it to looking out for yourself rather than begging and whining and feeling pity. Sure, the sex may not change, but that is no reason to sit there feeling sorry for yourself and how things are terrible. Working on yourself may not improve the marriage or the sex life, but it will improve yourself and how you feel. Arguing not to try it because it does not always work is a defeatist agenda.


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## confusedinlife (Mar 9, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But the vast majority of the advice given here (and which you imply should not be bothered with) is not one-in-a-million odds, or lottery style. These are ideas that have a reasonable chance of working and that also help the individual gain strength to decide what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Then change the game. Change it to looking out for yourself rather than begging and whining and feeling pity. Sure, the sex may not change, but that is no reason to sit there feeling sorry for yourself and how things are terrible. Working on yourself may not improve the marriage or the sex life, but it will improve yourself and how you feel. Arguing not to try it because it does not always work is a defeatist agenda.


well said...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But the vast majority of the advice given here (and which you imply should not be bothered with) is not one-in-a-million odds, or lottery style. These are ideas that have a reasonable chance of working and that also help the individual gain strength to decide what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Then change the game. Change it to looking out for yourself rather than begging and whining and feeling pity. Sure, the sex may not change, but that is no reason to sit there feeling sorry for yourself and how things are terrible. Working on yourself may not improve the marriage or the sex life, but it will improve yourself and how you feel. Arguing not to try it because it does not always work is a defeatist agenda.


My view is not that there is no point in the stuff that is suggested here. Quite the opposite. But rather, this:

You say "change the game". What I see in a lot of the advice is that it doesn't change the game. It give advice on how to play the same game a bit differently. Like: "Getting knocked about in the ring? Try this one-two combination". Or, it says leave and stop playing the game altogether.

It appears to me that the advice would be like saying to someone who is always beaten by a boxer to either try out-boxing them, or give up, hang up your gloves and play tiddlywinks. 

If you know the metaphorical boxer is faster, stronger, more skilled and has a longer reach than you, no new approach is going to let you out-box them. But the alternatives shouldn't be to try a new punch combination and hope to get lucky after consistently being beaten, or leave and declare yourself beaten. It has to be more like waiting for him outside the ring and hitting him over the back of the head with a shovel.

I think to a lot of men, the man up, thermostat and 180 are like giving boxing tips to someone who is taking on Ali in his heyday. 

Just an opinion


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I think to a lot of men, the man up, thermostat and 180 are like giving boxing tips to someone who is taking on Ali in his heyday.
> 
> Just an opinion


That advice, when taken as intended, is not really about getting more sex. When people apply in that way, then you are correct in your analogy. When people apply it correctly, it becomes playing chess against Ali. You still may lose, but it does not hurt nearly as bad.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> That advice, when taken as intended, is not really about getting more sex. When people apply in that way, then you are correct in your analogy. When people apply it correctly, it becomes playing chess against Ali. You still may lose, but it does not hurt nearly as bad.


I see what you're saying, and I can see how this works, but I still think what people need is a way of beating Ali in a fight, knowing full well that trying to out-box him is not the way.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> I see what you're saying, and I can see how this works, but I still think what people need is a way of beating Ali in a fight, knowing full well that trying to out-box him is not the way.


I am not convinced that would do much good. You will tend to lose, because the spouse is better at that game - they are battle hardened and know how it is played, whether through resentment, lack of attraction and desire, exhaustion, you name it. Most people do not have the patience and dedication to try and catch up in a race where they are already miles behind.

So that is why I think you need to try and change the game. Get them to play a game where you are both starting out about even and can learn it together. Again, there is no guarantee that you spouse will agree to play, but I think you stand a better chance of success, or at least of lessening the pain.

Having said all of that, if someone could give the lessons to allow you to beat Ali, then I want them to next work on curing cancer.


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## Mr B (Feb 6, 2009)

Actually low sex drive is not the most common reason why men stop having marital sex, boredom and interpersonal difficulties with the spouse is. Porn often plays a large part and affairs less so. It may look to a wife like her husband has lost his sex drive but nine times out of ten he is simply using other methods to obtain sexual release.
This is especially true in long term marriages.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I am not convinced that would do much good. You will tend to lose, because the spouse is better at that game - they are battle hardened and know how it is played, whether through resentment, lack of attraction and desire, exhaustion, you name it. Most people do not have the patience and dedication to try and catch up in a race where they are already miles behind.
> 
> So that is why I think you need to try and change the game. Get them to play a game where you are both starting out about even and can learn it together. Again, there is no guarantee that you spouse will agree to play, but I think you stand a better chance of success, or at least of lessening the pain.
> 
> Having said all of that, if someone could give the lessons to allow you to beat Ali, then I want them to next work on curing cancer.


I get exactly what you mean, and I see how it ought to work, but my impression is that to a lot of men (dunno about women but I wouldn't bet on them seeing it differently), if you beat our metaphorical Ali at chess or bridge or tennis, part of you feels it doesn't count. Beating him at that isn't the thing - it's beating him in a fight that counts. You know it (and I think this is crucial) they know it and they know YOU know it.

It can easily become a "So what, you didn't win the only game that matters" thing.


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