# can/should this be saved?



## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

hi...was browsing thru and reading just wanted to share my situation  long post so bear with me

been married for 8 yrs and together for 18 yrs total. im 38 and she is 35 so basically we have been together for the better part of our lives.

marriage was pretty great until 4-5 years ago. kids came along and i wanted to be the perfect dad( i have no emotional connection with my dad and i wanted to avoid that at cost). i poured everything i had into my kids and basically didnt work on being a husband. wife also didnt work on the marriage i guess. the early part of parenthood we probably went on like 5 dates a year. regular family dates were good though.

there were also times when i got upset with her for not spending time with the kids.she was a workaholic and said she will do what she can with kids but thats it. that being said, she still did spend time with them, just not up to my expectation

also, she has a quick temper, and i disagreed with the way she disciplined the kids. not child abuse level though but physical punishment or getting really angry for very minor offences. we had a small fight on this and she got unhappy. i didnt approach the subject again but it was something that was always at the back of my mind.

in a way, the non prioritization of family and the disciplining of the kids made me lose some respect and feelings for her.

could have handled all these situation better..but that is just the power of hindsight.

last year she got pretty busy with her work, and i did most of the babysitting myself after work during the weekdays. weekends we still operate as a family and have some really good fun. i basically felt ignored and not appreciated though. i did try to support her unconditionally as much as i could but after 8-9 months i got really alone and upset, and i guess it showed. she felt that. she started going out with her friends and that made me even more upset. having free time and not spending it with us.

the boiling point for me came when we arranged for a holiday, and she brought her work along. had a small argument on that since she couldnt even dedicate 7 days to just the family.

when we got back she dropped the bomb. that she was no longer in love with me for 2-3 years(not much reasons given-all very minor stuff but i was insensitive to them) and also felt i was no longer in love with her(possible as reasons above) and was unhappy a lot. and that me being angry at her all the time last year was the tipping point. she broke up with me.

thing is...she still wants the family to be together. says she loves the family. since our break up, (i didnt move out and we are still staying in the same room)we are still spending a lot of time together as a family, and when we do, its like nothing changed. we have fun, laugh together and still shared a lot of stuff. we even still go out by ourselves for dinner/shopping/hang out. im not sure if id classify it as date though. in fact we spend more time together now rather than 1 year back. we just came back from another short trip with the kids, and she sometimes still say i want to do A or B together with kids etc.

what we dont do now is touch. or talk about the future. or our problem. being alone at home with her is also akward. sometimes we have nothing to say to each other at all, but sometime we are talking like old friends again. she says she doesnt know what she wants..but definitely she doesnt want to be unhappy like the past 2-3 years. she says that this situation will end when either of us finds another person to move on.

she says that it is too late for us now, and everything that we do now is just as friends. she clams up if i try to bring up our problem, and ask me to find my own happiness.

for her, nothing has changed and she is neglecting me(mostly) and also the kids. i am still unhappy (even more now) but i believe that i have changed. managed to control my feelings so the atmosphere in the house is much better. even she ackowledges it.

i also know that she is spending some time with a male friend to pour out her marriage problems. no affair yet but that is just something that is very possible in the future as i think she has developed feelings for him. the guy is married is what is holding her back(for now). 

im not sure what i want now. i do still love her in a way, and i do think that us still having fun together means that we have something to work on, and the kids are not separated from either parent. i am also still very unhappy that this is all one sided.

she says she doesnt know what love is anymore. even during the past 2-3 years, i do feel that we have always been happy and can laugh, talk, share experiences together and we do take care of each other, whether as a couple or as a family. isnt that love? its not the new hot n heavy new love but to me it has evolved to something different.

i have a lot of hurt/anger/pain in me now, and it would be easy to take the kids and just walk away. but whats holding me back is that if there is still something to work on, should i not do my best on that? i am also wondering if i really dont love her anymore and is just doing this for the kids or its suppose to be the right thing to do.

i have just been going day by day. wondering how long this will last. im not too hopeful of the situation. rough it out until i lose my sanity or cut my losses now??

Thank you for reading.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

If she is UNWILLING to go to Marriage Counseling, then there is nothing you alone can do to save your marriage. It takes TWO people working sincerely at a marriage to make it succeed.

If she flat-out refuses counseling (as I suspect she will), then your marriage is over and she's just waiting for Mr. Married to dump his wife or she's waiting to find a different man who's NOT married. Either way, she's made it clear she's NOT waiting for YOU.

Allowing her to live in the house with you and the kids is allowing her to eat her cake and have it, too! She gets all the benefits of family life PLUS the opportunity to go look for some other guy to be with emotionally, sexually, mentally, etc. 

I, personally, believe that you need to

start doing the 180 for yourself and see a divorce attorney for a consultation so YOU know your rights and can be prepared whichever way this goes 
present the 'marriage counseling or divorce' ultimatum and be prepared to follow-through
if she chooses marriage counseling, the married man/shoulder to cry on ends immediately (demand complete transparency - all passwords to her phone, email, etc.)
if she chooses divorce, SHE moves out of the house since SHE wants the divorce and YOU'RE the primary caretaking parent
Best wishes to you and your family!


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

thanks for the wishes..

she also acknowledges that she is having the best of both worlds..and that if i feel unfair then i should just do whatever that makes me happy.

rite now i dont know..when im not with her..separation is such an easy option. when im with her, things get more complicated. sometimes there is just too much of a connection. 

definitely thinking of MC..will give it time and approach her on d subject..although there is never a rite time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

I'm with 'Wiser here. I think she's gone, for whatever reason. You need to start to work on yourself now. Sorry you're going through this, unfortunately, while marriages are often mutual, break-ups aren't always so.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Check her phone records; she's cheating.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

lets just say i did some spying of my own. thats why i know she is not cheating..for now.

physically no...emotionally..probably. just need a small spark to push it completely over the line. she does have her core values, but that is also being eroded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Cheating can be as simple as talking it up with her work partner and starting to 'see' that he'd be a great catch. That's often all it takes for her to mentally kick you out.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Typical TAM; hubby admits he's neglected and been highly judgmental of wife, and then when she decides she might want out of the marriage she must be cheating. That's the only possible explanation for a woman that wants out of an unhappy marriage, because us little women don't go anywhere without a backup, right? Geez.

So do you work? Is she the sole breadwinner? It sounds to me like you weren't really that interested in being a couple with her, so why now? It also sounds like you were pretty judgmental and thought she should adhere to your standards of time with kids and discipline. Why is that for you to decide? Is she not their parent too? If you were a woman you'd get torn up here for neglecting hubby in favor of kids, but of course since you're a guy she must be cheating. If a sahm wrote this post she'd be accused of neglecting hubby and using him for a paycheck.

Not sure what you expected out of this; if you neglect your marriage it will die. Have you tried spending some quality time alone with your wife to try you reconnect? Do you want an actual relationship with your wife? Because it sounds like up to this point you've wanted her to simply fit in to your little mold of a family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I stated that based on his claim that a year ago, she got buried in work. That's usually where women start affairs, cos the men compliment them, and it feels good.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Typical TAM; hubby admits he's neglected and been highly judgmental of wife, and then when she decides she might want out of the marriage she must be cheating. That's the only possible explanation for a woman that wants out of an unhappy marriage, because us little women don't go anywhere without a backup, right?  Geez.
> 
> So do you work? Is she the sole breadwinner? It sounds to me like you weren't really that interested in being a couple with her, so why now? It also sounds like you were pretty judgmental and thought she should adhere to your standards of time with kids and discipline. Why is that for you to decide? Is she not their parent too? If you were a woman you'd get torn up here for neglecting hubby in favor of kids, but of course since you're a guy she must be cheating. If a sahm wrote this post she'd be accused of neglecting hubby and using him for a paycheck.
> 
> ...


True - but they are where they are now. You need to get D papers drawn up and have her served. Also, since you ahve kids and she is the one not wanting or willing to make it work, she needs to move out asap, you stay with the kids so as to not add further stress to them. Tell her, you are willing to work on this, but if she isnt, then she has to leave.


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## happi_g_more2 (Jan 27, 2014)

needtotalk37 said:


> i have just been going day by day. wondering how long this will last. im not too hopeful of the situation. rough it out until i lose my sanity or cut my losses now??
> 
> Thank you for reading.


Worse thing you can do. This will continue on until she comes home one day and says "hey, this guy from my work that Ive been fvcking wants me to move in with him. See ya"


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Regardless of what you have done to be a better spouse it has not made her fall back in love with you. She has dictated that your marriage is now open. Either of you is free to find someone else, according to her. Do you accept that?

Are you overweight? Smoke? 

Hit the gym hard. Get a new hair cut. Grow a beard or shave it off if you have one. Start doing things for yourself.

Get the divorce papers ready. Better to dump than be dumped.

Does OM's wife know about yours?

Kill the EA by clueing her in.

How do things look economically?

Physical punishment of children is morally wrong. No compromise on this record on you cell phone as you stop it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Typical TAM; hubby admits he's neglected and been highly judgmental of wife, and then when she decides she might want out of the marriage she must be cheating. That's the only possible explanation for a woman that wants out of an unhappy marriage, because us little women don't go anywhere without a backup, right? Geez.
> 
> So do you work? Is she the sole breadwinner? It sounds to me like you weren't really that interested in being a couple with her, so why now? It also sounds like you were pretty judgmental and thought she should adhere to your standards of time with kids and discipline. Why is that for you to decide? Is she not their parent too? If you were a woman you'd get torn up here for neglecting hubby in favor of kids, but of course since you're a guy she must be cheating. If a sahm wrote this post she'd be accused of neglecting hubby and using him for a paycheck.
> 
> ...


for the record..we both have demanding jobs. i just have my priorities set on the family while hers may not be the same. i do realized that setting my expectations was wrong..but i would admit that there are a lot of things that could have been done differently.

i am not absolved of all blame.i know it. i was upset and angry with her for almost 1 year. but i also supported her for a looong time by taking care of the kids while she worked. i gave them quality time and played with them. when its my turn to work at nite, she mostly gives them the ipad or smartphone and let them entertain themselves while she is on the laptop. again, maybe its just my expectation-but sometimes i can see the kids being so lonely and the mother says she has no time for them.

overall, she is still a good mother..just that i felt i never got the appreciation for when supporting her.

the thing is...even right now we have a very good relationship. i can still date her and we do have quality time together. i am confused that she can do all that with me daily/weekly, and still say that she has no feelings and is not commited to getting back together.

and yes..i am also questioning myself do i really to get back together. i am giving myself time to figure it out, but i know that i have changed certain expectations already about her.

MC in a way would help, but she already has a wall up and will not entertain it.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Regardless of what you have done to be a better spouse it has not made her fall back in love with you. She has dictated that your marriage is now open. Either of you is free to find someone else, according to her. Do you accept that?
> 
> Are you overweight? Smoke?
> 
> ...


well i did lose 10 kg over 4 months over this..so no more overweight issue. i did let myself go when we were together, we were at one point just too comfortable with each other i guess. we are both financially independent.

i am getting prepared to start a new life. just that very confused if i should still give it my best shot on the old one-since we do still connect and also for the kids.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

"i also know that she is spending some time with a male friend to pour out her marriage problems. no affair yet but that is just something that is very possible in the future as i think she has developed feelings for him. the guy is married is what is holding her back(for now)."

Investigate this situation thoroughly.

I'm afraid you are probably going to discover that she is already in an A, at least an emotional one and more than likely physical if this crap has been going on for awhile.

This will be the reason for her sudden bombshell of being 'unhappy' for 2-3 years....and it will be the reason she sees no future for you and that your current limbo will last til one of you meets someone and moves on.

She and POS and already plotting their escapes from their M's.

Find the hard evidence of the A and then expose it to OMW, both your families, and mutual friends.

Blow up her Fantasyland life she is planning with POS. If you expose to his BW, the most likely reaction of this scumbag will be to throw your WW under the bus to save his own a**.

Do these things ASAP.

It sounds to me you are really playing catchup to your WW here. She has obviously been planning this crap for awhile and is miles ahead of you in prepping for the split and D.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

Dyokemm said:


> "i also know that she is spending some time with a male friend to pour out her marriage problems. no affair yet but that is just something that is very possible in the future as i think she has developed feelings for him. the guy is married is what is holding her back(for now)."
> 
> Investigate this situation thoroughly.
> 
> ...


i am not that concern on whether she had the affair. the EA definitely happened, and from my snooping, it only happened after she broke up with me. so maybe it was not an affair. prior to that they were good friends(she met him about a year ago-business contact). Falling for him probably happened in that time period though. they had plenty of whatsapp msging but her replies were mostly acceptable. they did share a lot though. In a way i probably helped to push her towards him.

what i need to decide on is that

1. me to continue to try to salvage this by myself. we are still pretty good with each other-pretty hopeless cause but at least i gave my best before quitting
2. just quit-always thinking of this gives me a certain calmness..but everytime i see my 2 yr old son..i just cant go through with it.
3. recently thought up option-to stay and see if i can accept an open marriage-will not be long term-and just see what happens. 

i am starting to live my own life, and am stopping to be such a mr nice guy to her anymore.

i have also come to accept that she has already made up her mind and have moved on without me. what i do now is more for me. and the kids.

am i happy? no..can i find peace of mind..maybe.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

"Blow up her Fantasyland life she is planning with POS. If you expose to his BW, the most likely reaction of this scumbag will be to throw your WW under the bus to save his own a**."

ive got plenty of evidence saved up..all EA but enough to bury an elephant.

what i dont have is the contact of the wife.

if i do...hmmmm. dunno what i will do actually.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

The responses here are funny. If I'm not mistaken, you work and she works. You both make money. You're equals. Why then does everyone think that she needs to be with someone else before she decides to leave (or not)? 

There's a borderline misogyny at play on this forum, and I'm somewhat uncomfortable with it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Because psychologically, women who leave are either walkaway wives (leave after raising the kids) or are pulled to another guy. Just how it usually works.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

NTT,

If sounds like you want to at least attempt to salvage your marriage. You certainly can't keep living in limbo like this. MC right now is pointless, because both parties aren't interested in working on the marriage.

Your first order of business is killing the EA. You can't compete with an affair, whether its emotional or physical. So, here we go:

1.) Kill the affair. Begin with contacting PosOM's wife. Do this discreetly, in a way that OM cannot intercept your communication. be sure you have evidence. Exposure of an affair almost always kills it.

2.) See a lawyer and have D papers drawn up. Go for 50/50 joint custody. Have your wife served. (It can always be called off later if the two of you re-commit to the marriage)

The idea is that steps 1 and 2 will smack your cake-eating wife with a dose of hard reality. Right now she is in the affair fog and not thinking clearly.

I also would suggest putting a VAR under her car seat, so you can listen to her phone conversations while she is driving. Odds are you will find out this is more than an EA.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

caladan said:


> The responses here are funny. If I'm not mistaken, you work and she works. You both make money. You're equals. Why then does everyone think that she needs to be with someone else before she decides to leave (or not)?
> 
> There's a borderline misogyny at play on this forum, and I'm somewhat uncomfortable with it.



It's not borderline. It's full blown open misogyny.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

turnera said:


> Because psychologically, women who leave are either walkaway wives (leave after raising the kids) or are pulled to another guy. Just how it usually works.



Nope. I dumped an a$$hole with two little kids left to raise, and I didn't have another lined up. But it's a nice theory to take blame off of a lousy hb. She didn't dump you (not literally you) because you're a lousy hb, she had to have dumped you for someone else. Makes people feel better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

we were together for 10 years before getting married. basically i was her 1st serious relationship which started when she was 16 years old.

i did see a message in her whatsapp that she was telling her friend that she never wanted to be married.

i dunno..maybe she felt obliged to get married after 10 years together...maybe she was never in love with me.and felt trapped after that. having kids probably made her even more trapped. 

thinking back there was already a red flag back then after few months we were married, she had some very flirtatious emails/bordering on sexting with a male friend.

i only discovered this 4 years later(when 1st kid was 2) when she started having monthly dinners with him. back then i was so trusting and encouraged her to meet up with her friends. everything was transparent though as she would share with me the details of the dinner.

after 4-5 months though, i felt a bit uncomfortable and checked her email. found the flirtatious emails in the deleted bin. confronted her but she said it was just having fun and didnt realise her boundaries or that it would hurt me. 

of course i was hurt then but i trusted her. we moved on and she stopped their meetings..i forgave her(in a week, and never communicated about it again), but i guess it was never 100%..checked her cellphone for a few months but it was fine..no more contact.

another red flag would be that sometime after marriage, constantly during sex she would always like to roleplay being the mistress. sometimes i thought it was weird but i was getting what i wanted so i didnt say anything.

i wonder how much i didnt know..

the 10 years prior to marriage and the 1st few years of marriage were great though..i think she was really into the marriage idea then(at least to me)

pretty messed up marriage huh...

her current EA..that is after she broke up with me..so i think it doesnt count. 

i dont think she broke up due to the OM. it was being trapped in something she didnt want, and not being in love with me anymore. me being angry with her gave her the excuse. after 18 years being with 1 man(potentially), now she has the freedom to look around now.

the OM though..is probably what will keep her from considering reconciliation.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

FWIW I wouldn't worry about the mistress role play. We do that all the time: I tell my hb in bed that he's my hot f$ck buddy that I just keep around for sex while I keep my "husband" around for the practical things. I have no desire to get another man though, and he eats it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope. I dumped an a$$hole with two little kids left to raise, and I didn't have another lined up. But it's a nice theory to take blame off of a lousy hb. She didn't dump you (not literally you) because you're a lousy hb, she had to have dumped you for someone else. Makes people feel better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


However, NTT's wife hasn't left him or filed for D.

Life, Your situation is not the normal. Assuming "That's how it was in my situation, so that's how it probably is for everyone else" is naive.

And, in NTT's situation, there is a verifiable EA.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

"I also would suggest putting a VAR under her car seat, so you can listen to her phone conversations while she is driving. Odds are you will find out this is more than an EA."

i have read the whatsapp messages..there are message that she said "i will not cross the line with you."

another message saying "thanks but i will not consider this as you are married. if only you were not married"

there is a romance and excitement to having a forbidden love, and she is having that now. 

of course i know that it is very easy to cross the line.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you want her back? Then you have to remove the other men from her life first by exposing.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> However, NTT's wife hasn't left him or filed for D.
> 
> Life, Your situation is not the normal. Assuming "That's how it was in my situation, so that's how it probably is for everyone else" is naive.
> 
> ...


That could be, but there is a general assumption on TAM that women only leave for someone else, and that's false.

In this case, there may be an underlying EA, but nobody is addressing the dynamics of this marriage, which are very unhealthy. I'm sure she's contributed here, but we have lots of his contributions right from his own mouth.

OP, by his own admission, neglected his marriage and became a controlling, judgmental parent figure. She had to meet his standards for kid time, she had to comply with his idea of discipline. It's not hard to see why she might retreat to her work. Her can bust up anything he wants but it won't deal with the underlying dynamic. Now if he doesn't want the marriage then it doesn't matter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Because psychologically, women who leave are either walkaway wives (leave after raising the kids) or are pulled to another guy. Just how it usually works.


See, I can't accept this. I don't accept this. The researcher/statistician in me would like to see a breakdown of this psychological profile - is it based on say the looks or wealth/economical ability of the women? Is it generational? Is it perhaps regional? Would this affect say - a SAHM and a female head trader in a financial organization the same way?

I suspect the "psychological" in the quoted post needs to be replaced with socio-economical.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Do you want her back? Then you have to remove the other men from her life first by exposing.


i dunno...having written the mail above where she had the flirtatious emails, this is already strike 2. will there be strike 3 if she is back? unless she really have a major change in mindset..would probably never work.

last night, i have confronted her that i know she is seeing someone. didnt tell her all the details though, as i would probably lose the access to my snooping if i did.

told her that she comes home from work (where she claims she is having meeting) smelling of alchohol or cologne(which is true- i dont know which one though).

pretended that she already went all the way, and asked her if she considered what she is doing to the OM wife.

she does have her values, or rather the wife that i knew had her values, so maybe she will question herself

also told her that since she broke up with me-why need to lie to me about it, just go ahead-that should reduce some feelings of the thrill of being with the OM.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

needtotalk37 said:


> i dont think she broke up due to the OM. it was being trapped in something she didnt want, and not being in love with me anymore. me being angry with her gave her the excuse. after 18 years being with 1 man(potentially), now she has the freedom to look around now.
> 
> the OM though..is probably what will keep her from considering reconciliation.


NTT, 

Have you consulted with a divorce attorney?

Honestly, I think you would be better off just going for D. It sounds like your wife is happy with the status-quo of having a built-in-baby sitter and roommate (you!), whilst you are miserable living in limbo.

Take charge.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

ThreeStrikes said:


> NTT,
> 
> Have you consulted with a divorce attorney?
> 
> ...


not yet..right now im just thinking of separation. my mind changes constantly though. afraid that i may chicken out, 

i was a built in sitter ...but no more. tonite she said she has a dinner(didnt say who) and asked if she should get her parents to babysit. normally i would just do it as it is spending time with the kids, but today i just said no. enough of being taken advantage of.

i'd still spend time with her as a family though. kids are oblivious to whats happening and are very happy. in fact we all are very happy. so its tough coming to a decision


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

needtotalk37 said:


> not yet..right now im just thinking of separation. my mind changes constantly though. afraid that i may chicken out,
> 
> i was a built in sitter ...but no more. tonite she said she has a dinner(didnt say who) and asked if she should get her parents to babysit. normally i would just do it as it is spending time with the kids, but today i just said no. enough of being taken advantage of.
> 
> i'd still spend time with her as a family though. kids are oblivious to whats happening and are very happy.* in fact we all are very happy*. so its tough coming to a decision


You're happy?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

BTW, you _*are*_ separated. Perhaps not legally, but your marriage is over. Your wife is dating another man.

Sounds like, when you guys get divorced, that you will be able to co-parent without too much animosity.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Nope. I dumped an a$$hole with two little kids left to raise, and I didn't have another lined up. But it's a nice theory to take blame off of a lousy hb. She didn't dump you (not literally you) because you're a lousy hb, she had to have dumped you for someone else. Makes people feel better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Lifeistooshort,

You are right and Turnera, too.
My ex left me because our relationship failed and it was my fault. She did not have anyone lined up. However, when were together but had no children and we were in a distance relationship, she used to tell me about the men who were chasing her. She did not ever take it physical.

Women do leave because their husband mess up. However, Turnera is probably right that many who are checked out cheat or at least put out feelers. This is only human. Why would selfish genes launch themselves into the unknown?

So, I am an example of husband who failed to respond to the challenges of marriage who illustrates your contention. So we do exist. For sure there is misogyny on TAM. It is good that you come and offer another view. 

TAM did have threads in which WW talked directly with BH in the old days. Those occurrences do not take place anymore because of the male centric leaning of TAM. 

Men and women are different and the way they approach relationships is by definition bound to provoke the other gender because relationships are a competition and we don't like to lose The question is how can we learn.

I'd be interested to read what you think of Kolors' thread?

His wife checked out and she wants him to sign a separation agreement that will allow her to date without accusations of adultery. He is trying to move on with his pride intact.


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

ThreeStrikes said:


> You're happy?


as a family, i am happy. sometimes it feels like nothing has changed.
i dont really know how to describe it.

but no i am not happy. if there was no OM, i would have stuck it out.

now, sigh...its a foregone conclusion. just need to do a lot of planning. kid have to change school, changing babysitters, the house, the kids...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Needtotalk,

Don't you think that you need to define your status as 3X suggests?

Are you in a separated relationship with your wife living under the same roof and co-parenting in a very flexible way?

Separation means dating is okay. Your wife has put out in the open. You are the happy family, minus the sexual and emotional connection between husband and wife. You have two routes to travel:

1) Should you expose to OM's wife? This may blow the affair out of the water and turn your divorce acrimonious. Do you, however, feel comfortable leaving her in the dark?

If you do blow the affair out of the water, your wife and OM may cling to each other and then climb into a life raft together. There is some chance that being a fighter will snap your wife back to you. The chances are less than 20% IMO.

2) The other approach is to play the game, detaching. If you get in shape and carve out you time. You will look stronger to your wife. If you date and she can see that your partner is attractive, she may decide that you belong to her. Alternatively, she may be happy for you.

Choose one route or the other. Do not let things drift. Also, try to figure out how you messed up and correct things now. You wife may also notice the changes in you. 

Once again: do not accept her hitting your kids – that is a boundary. Do not flip out. Record it on your phone and afterwards play it back for her and explain that it is not good for your children or her.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> Needtotalk,
> 
> Don't you think that you need to define your status as 3X suggests?
> 
> ...


Limbo is the worst place to be.

NTT, get up to 30 posts so you can read Carlton's thread in the Private forum. His situation was very similar to your's. He was separated in-house while his wife was actively dating. It's not an easy thing to do.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Lifeistooshort,
> 
> You are right and Turnera, too.
> My ex left me because our relationship failed and it was my fault. She did not have anyone lined up. However, when were together but had no children and we were in a distance relationship, she used to tell me about the men who were chasing her. She did not ever take it physical.
> ...


Longwalk, I think it's commendable that you take responsibility for your part, and that will serve you well. No, I don't agree with separated and dating; if that's where you are just end things, so I think the guy you mentioned should file for divorce. I wouldn't even agree if both parties agreed, because they'd still be dating other people with feelings that deserve to be more then a married persons attempt to see what might be out there.

I see where you're going here, and I don't think OP should accept his wife with another man. But I think it's a disservice to simply trash his wife, because it doesn't address the underlying unhealthy dynamic of the marriage. I don't even get the feeling he was all that interested in a close relationship with his wife and was fairly content until she told him she wanted out. Can you imagine the reaction here if a woman posted that she'd neglected her hb, focused on the kids, nagged him about spending time with them to her standards, and decided that she was the decider of discipline? She'd be chided for treating him like a paycheck and focusing on the kids, and for not allowing him to have his own relationship with the kids. It's not hard to see why she retreated to her work; she not only doesn't have a relationship with her hb, but he's an adversary instead of a partner.

If a guy in this scenario was talking to someone else, his affair wouldn't be accepted but he would be given a little more understanding with a wife that focuses on kids and micromanages everything. I'd dare say that he might want to consider if he was her, would he want to spend any time with him? 

Now if they're to work on the marriage OM must go. Period. But to pretend that's the cause of their issues is ridiculous. Even OP seems to get that. I get that he likes the family, and he'd "stick it out" without om. That doesn't sound like someone all that interested in being close to his wife. Small wonder they are where they are.

I appreciate your attempt to discuss here, that quality is all too rare here on TAM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> Needtotalk,
> 
> Don't you think that you need to define your status as 3X suggests?
> 
> ...


in a way she broke up with me..she is already separated n dating. there is a small part of me that is considering that too.

most likely it will be physical separation. will take the kids and move out. giving ourselves space she will definitely explore other options. i would also have time to see if getting back together is what i really want. kinda sucks but if she doesnt find out for herself what she really
history would just be repeating itself. if she wants to get back together, then it will b up to me to see if i can deal with it.

id love to get the OM wife contact. outing him? have thought about it but its just more for revenge. the problems were here all along and she left me for that. 

i do agree that the OM needs to go...have already confronted her so we will see how that goes.

i am working in my self. i do see improvements on having no expectations on her on also managing my anger.will stop being taken advantage off and be more detached.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needtotalk37 (Apr 1, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Longwalk, I think it's commendable that you take responsibility for your part, and that will serve you well. No, I don't agree with separated and dating; if that's where you are just end things, so I think the guy you mentioned should file for divorce. I wouldn't even agree if both parties agreed, because they'd still be dating other people with feelings that deserve to be more then a married persons attempt to see what might be out there.
> 
> I see where you're going here, and I don't think OP should accept his wife with another man. But I think it's a disservice to simply trash his wife, because it doesn't address the underlying unhealthy dynamic of the marriage. I don't even get the feeling he was all that interested in a close relationship with his wife and was fairly content until she told him she wanted out. Can you imagine the reaction here if a woman posted that she'd neglected her hb, focused on the kids, nagged him about spending time with them to her standards, and decided that she was the decider of discipline? She'd be chided for treating him like a paycheck and focusing on the kids, and for not allowing him to have his own relationship with the kids. It's not hard to see why she retreated to her work; she not only doesn't have a relationship with her hb, but he's an adversary instead of a partner.
> 
> ...


hi lifeistooshort

i was definitely in a close relationship with my wife early in the marriage. i also know that i moved that focus to my kids when they came along. always thought that we could refocus on ourselves later. boy was i wrong. in a way i guess we both were overconfident and refused help that was offered to take care of the kids n have some quality time alone.

i also provided all the support that she needed. housework, baby sitting, gave her the time she needed..to me this is all part if love. turns out i became too nice of a guy instead.

right now..with all the hurt n pain i am questioning my love for her. but we were close once. id hate to see that we dont try and get that back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

caladan said:


> See, I can't accept this. I don't accept this. The researcher/statistician in me would like to see a breakdown of this psychological profile - is it based on say the looks or wealth/economical ability of the women? Is it generational? Is it perhaps regional? Would this affect say - a SAHM and a female head trader in a financial organization the same way?
> 
> I suspect the "psychological" in the quoted post needs to be replaced with socio-economical.


If this phenomenon happens more among women than men (I doubt it), I'd wager that it's because women are often willing to stick it out until the kids are grown, thinking that will be better for them. But I'm sure just as many men are sticking it out for the kids. Misogyny is rampant here at TAM.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

It's true that misogyny is rampant on TAM. It's hard to face up to you failures and shortcomings. I couldn't see what I was doing wrong when I was messing up.

That being said of the spouses leaving marriages 2/3 are women. Partially, they are women who are getting out because their partners have major failings. What percentage I hesitate to guess. But one thing is clear when women check out or are on the verge of checking out, they often cheat. Not all but least there is very discernable pattern.

What proportion of husbands have lost respect due to proximity, boredom and disillusionment – the slide into betadom – must be significant. Men and women have different selfish gene strategies and women graduate from one relationship and go another.

Men and women need more education about relationships when young. In any case, life would be boring if everyone were happy, that could never be.

Northernlights,

I haven't been on your thread for awhile. Have you separated, divorced or reconciled. I remember you wanted out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LongWalk said:


> That being said of the spouses leaving marriages 2/3 are women. Partially, they are women who are getting out because their partners have major failings. What percentage I hesitate to guess. But one thing is clear when women check out or are on the verge of checking out, they often cheat. Not all but least there is very discernable pattern.


IMO, that's because women typically seek out emotional connection and when the marriage gets stale, they are ripe for any man who pays attention and gives them that emotional connection that they can't find in their marriage any more - and blame themselves for.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> It's true that misogyny is rampant on TAM. It's hard to face up to you failures and shortcomings. I couldn't see what I was doing wrong when I was messing up.
> 
> That being said of the spouses leaving marriages 2/3 are women. Partially, they are women who are getting out because their partners have major failings. What percentage I hesitate to guess. But one thing is clear when women check out or are on the verge of checking out, they often cheat. Not all but least there is very discernable pattern.
> 
> ...



My suspicion is that divorces are initiated primarily by women because this generation of men has been left out in the cold with regards to marital role models. My husband, for example, was raised by a mother who has boasted to me that she always told herself that she was doing her future daughter-in-law a favor by not keeping a super clean house. That way, my H wouldn't expect too much. She meant well, but I couldn't help but think, sheesh, you couldn't teach him to clean and not expect his wife to do it all?

Roles have changed pretty rapidly, and men are expected to do things now that they never saw their fathers do. Women build up resentment when they feel like they're doing it all. 

I also suspect that autism and ADHD disorders really are more prevalent among men (that's what the current research shows), and their wives really suffer. 

And then there's the usual abuse and mistreatment. 


Longwalk, I'm still trying to work on it. I'm starting with a new therapist next week, hopefully that will start me on a path of clarity. Still can't help but feel that a divorce will accomplish little more than transferring the burden of unhappiness from me over to my kids.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The number of couples that we know intimately enough to catch a profound glimpse of in terms of relationship dynamics is limited. I remember that a couple my ex and I were friends, we actually made friends post delivery in the hospital when my ex and she shared a room. The wife was MD, PhD and the husband a teacher at the music college and professional musician. 

One day the wife complained to my ex that their sex life had tanked. I don't know if they ever fixed it but they are still together. They are intelligent and well balanced people, trying hard to be good parents. I can imagine that relationships go up and down over the course of marriage. 

It must be every easy in a dark period to find yourself in an affair. The music teacher who spends hours with an attractive student who admires him. The doctor who sees a colleague whom she admires and shares an emotional bond, working life and death. I am not saying that these things happened, I just imagine that it is too easy.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

I agree LongWalk, I'm sure affairs are very easy to find oneself in. I had two affairs with engaged men while I was in college, and while I feel very badly about it, I learned so much. The first time, it was a really innocent friendship, we got really close, and all of a sudden we were in love. Back then I'd never heard the term emotional affair, and I wouldn't have believed how profound they could be. Boy did I learn! The next one I should have known better, but I was so angry about the first one still, that I pretty much did it go get revenge on the last guy.

Because of those experiences, it wouldn't happen to me again. I have very firm boundaries and am extraordinarily put off by any man who would give a married/attached woman inappropriate attention. I can only hope the guys I was involved with have learned the same lesson.

Maybe that's partly why I'm stalling where I am for so much longer than most people. I refuse to even consider dating another man, so from my perspective, why divorce if my only intention is to be a single mom until my girls are out of the house. I understand that I could meet someone and change my mind, but it's so far out of my mind that I don't even want it to happen. So in that case, why not just stay in a roommates situation with my H? He doesn't mind, the girls get 2 parents, we save money and can provide them with a lifestyle that we can't provide divorced.... 

You know, I didn't realize how unusual my EA experiences were and how much they'd affected me and my approach to marriage. I should probably warn people that my separation didn't lead to any inappropriate relationships on my part because I have such firm boundaries. And my H doesn't seem interested in sex, women, or relationships, so it was no problem for him too. I'll start amending my advice!


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