# It just goes on ... in different ways.



## munchie (May 17, 2011)

First a little background -- In May of 2011, I found out that my husband of 21 years had been having a EA/PA for about 5 months with one of his clients. The affair ended (she lost her job as a result) but it probably took another year for the communication between them to completely end. I believe (for various reasons) that the affair is truly over - so I don't think about it constantly as I did - although my husband does get defensive it I mention anything about it.

While I've finally gotten over his discretion (I've 'forgiven' him but will never really trust him anymore, which stinks) - there is one thing that concerns me greatly and I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts.

My husband has always said that he's the 'kind of guy people like to tell things to.' He's a friendly guy who makes people (especially women) feel comfortable and loves to say inappropriate things at questionable times because he likes to get a laugh or attention, etc. Many times I've expressed my concerns about a few relationships he's had with women where there's an exchange of private information. 

For example - another friend/client is 30-something single women (my husband is 53). She'll text my husband to tell him that she just had sex in a restaurant restroom with a hot waiter. And of course my husband finds it entertaining, so he'll probe for more information. And then he'll say something like "Well ... at least you're getting some action ... who knows when I'll be getting 'it' again." I've told him several times that I don't think it's appropriate for "Sally" to be sending him text messages like that, and he 'claims' that he told her not to send them ... but it's probably bull****.

What my husband doesn't know is that I hack into his Facebook account almost daily to see what private messages he has. Currently, he seems to be talking to a woman he knew in college as well as his old college girlfriend. The conversations haven't been sexual or inappropriate for the most part -- but it appears that both women have diverted any innuendo he has thrown their way. He often tells the college friend (not the old girlfriend) that she's beautiful, has nice eyes, should be treated well, etc. (She's a divorced woman who hasn't had much luck in the dating world). He also plays Facebook Scrabble with a woman (going on about 5 years) and he's told her over the years all about the affair with the OW, as well as things about our marriage and relationship (including the fact that he's thought about leaving me - but doesn't know how to tell his parents - even though they don't really like me.) This is the kind of stuff I read about on his FB private message or scrabble conversation. But the truth is, once again, I honestly don't think he's interested in leaving and oddly enough, our marriage is good in the sense that we have fun together, we're very involved with our kids, we travel and have things in common. And if I say to him "If you want to leave me ... you can just leave," - he gets annoyed and says "Why would I want to leave? I love you, I love our family ... who else would I want to be with?" hmmm.

So ... I'm not sure what to do. If I confront my husband about this - he'll obviously change the password and I'll get cut off from his Facebook account. I can't trust him and I know that's not good. Am I being an idiot? I'm not looking to leave but I want to have a marriage with a trustworthy partner.

Any advice?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

munchie said:


> First a little background -- In May of 2011, I found out that my husband of 21 years had been having a EA/PA for about 5 months with one of his clients. The affair ended (she lost her job as a result) but it probably took another year for the communication between them to completely end. I believe (for various reasons) that the affair is truly over - so I don't think about it constantly as I did - although my husband does get defensive it I mention anything about it.
> 
> While I've finally gotten over his discretion (I've 'forgiven' him but will never really trust him anymore, which stinks) - there is one thing that concerns me greatly and I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts.
> 
> ...


He should stop being 14. Really. He should.

Why does he want to keep shocking his mother?:scratchhead:


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Munchie, your husband is absolutely treating you with utter disrespect and is not how a man should treat his wife. He is doing things that are obviously wrong, trolling for bimbos...

The question is, 'What do you want to happen?' His behavior has not changed so....


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> He should stop being 14. Really. He should.
> 
> Why does he want to keep shocking his mother?:scratchhead:



Are you saying that I'm acting like his mother because I'm 'spying' on him? Ironically, he teases me about 'spying' but he doesn't really know the extent of it. I wish I didn't have to do it - it takes a lot of time and energy - not to mention putting me in an uncomfortable place mentally. I don't want to be blindsided down the road. I feel like at some point - I may have to pull out all the printed evidence and confront him about it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds like he wants the 'relationship' with these women because it feeds his ego & the way he achieves this is to mimic intimacy with them by distancing himself from his marriage, i.e., he trash talks your marriage in order to build some closeness with them. He probably doesn't want to be without you, but also wants the ego boost of these relationships. Cake-eating, at your expense.

It also sounds like he regularly makes these women uncomfortable with his inappropriate remarks and presumptions.

It's definitely disrespectful of you & you shouldn't have to tolerate it. It's very difficult to know what to do, though. Your dilemma is clear.

If it were me, I would confront him. Shine some light on it. A marriage with this going on secretly isn't much of a marriage, in my opinion.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

munchie said:


> our marriage is good in the sense that we have fun together


How can you purport to "have fun" with someone who disrespects you and your marriage, doesn't care about your feelings, completely disregards them and has had at least one affair:scratchhead:?

What I see is someone who treats you like s*** which you do nothing about and allow. We teach people how to treat us and he has learned from you letting him have his play and get away with his f***ed up behaviour that he can do whatever he wants and still come home to a dutiful wife who condones his behaviour.

Spying on your spouse is no way to live and he has made you this way with his treatment of you and affair(s). What consequences has he had for his affair and his unappropriate relationships? None. . What has he done to make amends and help you heal from the hurt he has caused you? Nothing. He is also without remorse, evident especially in his defensive behaviour at your mention of his affair. I would've kick him out of the house and filed a long time ago.

You tell him that if he wants to leave he should just do it but what do you want? Do you really care about someone if you're giving him the option to leave?



munchie said:


> he gets annoyed and says "Why would I want to leave? I love you, I love our family


Love to me is not just a feeling, it's a verb. You show love by how you treat, respect and take care of the ones you claim to love. Off course he will say that he doesn't want to leave. Why would he? He has a comfortable life whereby he does what he wants and it would be inconvenient and take too much effort on his part to leave and find someone that will put up with his s***. Make no mistake though that weeks or years from now when he does find someone that he "loves enough" he will leave.

If it isn't obvious to you, his conduct is absolutely unacceptable and f***ed up. Others have filed for divorce for the exact things your husband has done, any one of the number of the things he has done. I am sorry that you're here and that your husband is a horrid partner. An affair is devastating and horrible to experience.

My advice, D*I*V*O*R*C*E.


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Question is Munchie, he cheated in 2011. Do you think that was the only time with his behavior the way it is ?

Good for you to check his Facebook. May want to do some other surveillance so that you know the full extent of his actions. 

Don't do anything kneejerk but lower the hammer if you find he's cheating again and he needs to go no contact with everyone who he's had inappropriate contact with


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

munchie said:


> So ... I'm not sure what to do. If I confront my husband about this - he'll obviously change the password and I'll get cut off from his Facebook account. I can't trust him and I know that's not good. Am I being an idiot? I'm not looking to leave but I want to have a marriage with a trustworthy partner.
> 
> Any advice?


You have the power here, you just don't see it. Of course, you have to be willing to walk away. If you're not, he has NO REASON to stop cheating on you. 

And yes, this is cheating.

You have the power to say 'either you stop ALL unprofessional banter with women or I'm divorcing you. And if you don't want to be divorced, you'll provide me proof by handing over all your electronics any time I want it to ensure you've stopped.'


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

munchie said:


> For example - another friend/client is 30-something single women (my husband is 53). She'll text my husband to tell him that she just had sex in a restaurant restroom with a hot waiter. And of course my husband finds it entertaining, so he'll probe for more information. And then he'll say something like "Well ... at least you're getting some action ... who knows when I'll be getting 'it' again." I've told him several times that I don't think it's appropriate for "Sally" to be sending him text messages like that, and he 'claims' that he told her not to send them ... but it's probably bull****.


 Telling Sally that "at least you're getting some action ... who knows when I'll be getting 'it' again" is not telling Sally not to send them. It is telling her that he is available because his wife is not meeting his sexual needs.



munchie said:


> He also plays Facebook Scrabble with a woman (going on about 5 years) and he's told her over the years all about the affair with the OW, as well as things about our marriage and relationship (including the fact that he's thought about leaving me - but doesn't know how to tell his parents - even though they don't really like me.)


 This is also telling a woman that he is available.

Your husband is trolling for women to have affairs with. He appears very experienced at it. Your husband is a serial cheater that you caught only one time him having sex with someone. Since studies show that most physical affairs go undetected, you catching him only one time is not surprising. 

You saying that you do not want to confront because then he will change his password, shows that you allowed him to rug sweep the physical affair that you know about without consequences. You saying that he continued contact for one year after the physical affair ended confirms this. What you should have done then, and should do now, is tell him that the only way that you can stay married to him is if he agrees to full transparency which includes all passwords without complaint. You should also tell him that emotional affairs (EA) is cheating and that you will divorce him if he does not completely end all contact with these other women that he is having or has had inappropriate conversations with.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Yeah...I know what he's doing. Be wary...be vigilent. He's fishing.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

@OP: When your cheating husband calls you jealous and controlling (and he will call you this) for demanding full transparency (which includes all passwords) and full no contact with his inappropriate relationship partners, tell him that it is OK to be jealous when your cheating partner gives you good reason to be jealous, and remind him that being married is all about both spouses being controlled by the promises of their marriage vows.


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## Acoa (Sep 21, 2012)

Advice? Decide if it's worth living like this. In this state you are in right now. Where he isn't likely having an active EA or PA, but has demonstrated that behavior in the past, and is actively tearing down boundaries with various women looking for a connection. 

You can continue to spy and c0ckbl0ck the other women most of time. Someone will get through eventually. Is he worth it? Or would you be happier single? Maybe you'd be doing him a favor setting him free. Sounds like he is an emotional coward, unable to ask for what he needs or wants and sneaks around hoping to get it by flattering other women.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Munchie, if he is having private conversations with other women that include discussion of their sexual activities, then that is incredibly inappropriate and across the line for any married individual, period. Situations like that are just a breath away from an EA, and then possible PA.

Being a "kind of guy that people like to tell things to," especially women is bunk. I know exactly what he means by that, and I can tell you that you don't become that way unless you are essentially sending people that message loud and clear. Probing them for info here and there in a casual way so as to not appear pushy/creepy, sharing personal details first to put them at ease, asking them first if they "are doing ok?" to see if there is any weakness there, putting yourself in a situation to be alone/private with someone, etc. Him saying it comes natural just means that he's really good at it, and it's probably somewhat subconscious, but that hardly means that he can't stop that behavior.

I get the feeling that he isn't very respectful of your marriage, in the sense that he probably feels really secure with you and so he might not feel like he needs to go above and beyond. He probably figures that you'll just accept his excuses, and you aren't likely to push the issue hard with him anyway. With that said, I bet he does really love you, and probably just doesn't realize fully how damaging his behavior is, both to the marriage and to your sense of trust/respect that you have for him which he desires. It's VERY easy for someone to fool themselves into believing that as long as they aren't crossing any 100% obvious red flags like say, have sex with someone else, kissing someone else, etc., then what they are doing is "perfectly innocent" and their spouse doesn't have any justification for being upset about it. Or worse, they might accuse the spouse of being "controlling."

You didn't mention anything about any kind of marriage counseling as a result of the affair. Have you talked to your husband about getting into marriage counseling together? Don't mention your access to his facebook. If he has opposed counseling in the past, surely you have other evidence that you can use to push the marriage counseling, but if he really won't consider it at all, then that will be a whole different problem.


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

munchie said:


> First a little background -- In May of 2011, I found out that my husband of 21 years had been having a EA/PA for about 5 months with one of his clients. The affair ended (she lost her job as a result) but it probably took another year for the communication between them to completely end. I believe (for various reasons) that the affair is truly over - so I don't think about it constantly as I did - although my husband does get defensive it I mention anything about it.*Any remorse on his part for the A? Or was it just rugswept?*
> 
> While I've finally gotten over his discretion (I've 'forgiven' him but will never really trust him anymore, which stinks) - there is one thing that concerns me greatly and I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts.
> 
> ...


*If you want a marriage with a trustworthy partner the first thing you have to do is get one because the one you have "ain't it". Your WH is not going to change. Especially if he never suffers any consequences.*


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

Thanks for everyone's input. I did find out about 20 years ago that he was participating in AOL chat rooms (the early days of the internet and all that crazy stuff) and had several cyber-sex encounters with a few women. I have all the print outs of those conversations. And he knows I know all about them. So yes, he's been a serial liar and 'cheater'. I do deserve better, but I don't want to end the marriage. I just want him to be honest and trustworthy. Maybe that's asking too much. 

He blames the affair with the OW (unfairly) on me because according to him, I "rejected' him and "didn't give him the affection and attention" that he needed over the years. When our kids were younger, we didn't have many babysitter options and I always worked full-time. He would often suggest an overnight get-away at a nearby hotel but my response would be "that sounds fun ... but I don't know who I can get to stay over and watch the kids" He knew how difficult it was to find someone (and it was always MY job to find the babysitter). But if I was unable to find someone, he would perceive that as my rejecting him. Now our kids are 17, 20 & 22 and we have lots of flexibility. If I now say to HIM ... "let's stay over in the city..." he'll say to me "Well ... you rejected me for so many years ... how do I know you won't disappoint me again." WTH?? 

After the affair, I did take some responsibility for not doing a better job in making him feel more wanted, important, etc. I should have made my husband and marriage more of a priority - but I thought he would understand that, for a few years, our kids/household/activities, etc. would have to be the main focus. But he's also very needy. It's like he's my fourth child. I'm trying really hard to make amends for MY past mistakes - but he's making it difficult give and receive.


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

munchie said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. I did find out about 20 years ago that he was participating in AOL chat rooms (the early days of the internet and all that crazy stuff) and had several cyber-sex encounters with a few women. I have all the print outs of those conversations. And he knows I know all about them. So yes, he's been a serial liar and 'cheater'. I do deserve better, but I don't want to end the marriage. I just want him to be honest and trustworthy. Maybe that's asking too much.
> 
> He blames the affair with the OW (unfairly) on me because according to him, I "rejected' him and "didn't give him the affection and attention" that he needed over the years. When our kids were younger, we didn't have many babysitter options and I always worked full-time. He would often suggest an overnight get-away at a nearby hotel but my response would be "that sounds fun ... but I don't know who I can get to stay over and watch the kids" He knew how difficult it was to find someone (and it was always MY job to find the babysitter). But if I was unable to find someone, he would perceive that as my rejecting him. Now our kids are 17, 20 & 22 and we have lots of flexibility. If I now say to HIM ... "let's stay over in the city..." he'll say to me "Well ... you rejected me for so many years ... how do I know you won't disappoint me again." WTH??
> 
> After the affair, I did take some responsibility for not doing a better job in making him feel more wanted, important, etc. I should have made my husband and marriage more of a priority - but I thought he would understand that, for a few years, our kids/household/activities, etc. would have to be the main focus. But he's also very needy. It's like he's my fourth child. I'm trying really hard to make amends for MY past mistakes - but he's making it difficult give and receive.


You keep making excuses for him. He needs to own up for his deeds. You can keep excusing his actions, take the blame or anything else. What is he bringing to the table? One person cannot change things in a broken marriage. He has to take responsibility and he needs to do most of the hard work. He has skated all these years and blames you for his A. That's laughable. You're right he is your fourth child. He definitely acts immature. Things won't change unless he is willing to change.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

munchie said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. I did find out about 20 years ago that he was participating in AOL chat rooms (the early days of the internet and all that crazy stuff) and had several cyber-sex encounters with a few women. I have all the print outs of those conversations. And he knows I know all about them. So yes, he's been a serial liar and 'cheater'. I do deserve better, but I don't want to end the marriage. I just want him to be honest and trustworthy. Maybe that's asking too much.
> 
> He blames the affair with the OW (unfairly) on me because according to him, I "rejected' him and "didn't give him the affection and attention" that he needed over the years. When our kids were younger, we didn't have many babysitter options and I always worked full-time. He would often suggest an overnight get-away at a nearby hotel but my response would be "that sounds fun ... but I don't know who I can get to stay over and watch the kids" He knew how difficult it was to find someone (and it was always MY job to find the babysitter). But if I was unable to find someone, he would perceive that as my rejecting him. Now our kids are 17, 20 & 22 and we have lots of flexibility. If I now say to HIM ... "let's stay over in the city..." he'll say to me "Well ... you rejected me for so many years ... how do I know you won't disappoint me again." WTH??
> 
> After the affair, I did take some responsibility for not doing a better job in making him feel more wanted, important, etc. I should have made my husband and marriage more of a priority - but I thought he would understand that, for a few years, our kids/household/activities, etc. would have to be the main focus. But he's also very needy. It's like he's my fourth child. I'm trying really hard to make amends for MY past mistakes - but he's making it difficult give and receive.


Well sure, everyone makes mistakes. I'm sure you could have done more to make him feel needed/respected. In some tiny way, you could even say that may have contributed to what he did, but the bottom line is that he is ultimately responsible for his actions. In my marriage, I know that I share a large portion of the responsibility for leaving my wife in a place of feeling unloved, undesirable, unvalued, etc. for a long period of time, which left her vulnerable to the kind words of another man. I can accept responsibility for that, but she is ultimately the one who decided to have an affair and those actions are completely on her, and she accepted that.

If he is genuinely trying to blame you however, the secondary message there is that due to the various circumstances involved, he still feels that he was entitled to cheat. Think about it. If he says, "The only reason I even had an affair was because you rejected me so many times for so long that I just didn't have a choice." Then what he is ALSO saying is, "If/when I feel rejected/unwanted again, I may very well consider having another affair." It's all blame shifting. He has to ultimately accept that there is absolutely zero excuse for cheating, and choosing to do so was his decision alone, not yours.

It is good however that you have been able to take some of the responsibility for your part in the marriage issues, just as anyone should do. You mentioned that you thought he would be understanding of needing to take a few years off in order to focus on the kids/household/activities, but I'd have to disagree with that completely. The marriage should always be priority #1, including more important than the kids activities, household responsibilities, etc. If you're the captain of the ship and you find that the galley is messy, it's time for bingo to start in the parlor and there is a hole in the ship, then you need to get the hole fixed and secure before tending to the messy galley or starting bingo, right?

In any case, I think my prior suggestions still apply. Good luck!


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

munchie said:


> He blames the affair with the OW (unfairly) on me because according to him, I "rejected' him and "didn't give him the affection and attention" that he needed over the years.


He's trolling for action and the above is how he will justify the next affair. It also shows he's blame shifting, thus not remorseful. It's only a matter of time till he gives himself permission to do it again. 

He shows poor values and an immature personality. It's hard to change who a person is. It can only be done from within and he doesn't appear to want it. You certainly can't do it for him. 

You gotta ask yourself if you are going to keep enduring this or will you leave.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

munchie said:


> Are you saying that I'm acting like his mother because I'm 'spying' on him? Ironically, he teases me about 'spying' but he doesn't really know the extent of it. I wish I didn't have to do it - it takes a lot of time and energy - not to mention putting me in an uncomfortable place mentally. I don't want to be blindsided down the road. I feel like at some point - I may have to pull out all the printed evidence and confront him about it.


Nope. It's him being 14 and wanting to irritate his momma.

Not down to you at all.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Here's the thing: your husband is a serial cheat with poor boundaries, and you've unfortunately demonstrated that you'll put up with it. You have two choices: put some boundaries in place and if he violates them (which he will) then leave, or you can live with it. What would confronting him even accomplish? He'll just lie and bullsh!t you. Decide if you're willing to live like this.

Why would he want to leave? He has it all now..... he can cheat, blame you and you accept it, do whatever he wants, and has a wife at home who does for him and continues to buy his bullsh!t. Sorry that's so harsh, but that's what it is. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

munchie, he's a manipulative, self-centered jerk. And you have been manipulated FOR SO LONG that you can't even see it any more. WE all see it. 

Look up abuse victims and you'll see yourself in the description.


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## munchie (May 17, 2011)

cdbaker said:


> Well sure, everyone makes mistakes. I'm sure you could have done more to make him feel needed/respected. In some tiny way, you could even say that may have contributed to what he did, but the bottom line is that he is ultimately responsible for his actions. In my marriage, I know that I share a large portion of the responsibility for leaving my wife in a place of feeling unloved, undesirable, unvalued, etc. for a long period of time, which left her vulnerable to the kind words of another man. I can accept responsibility for that, but she is ultimately the one who decided to have an affair and those actions are completely on her, and she accepted that.
> 
> If he is genuinely trying to blame you however, the secondary message there is that due to the various circumstances involved, he still feels that he was entitled to cheat. Think about it. If he says, "The only reason I even had an affair was because you rejected me so many times for so long that I just didn't have a choice." Then what he is ALSO saying is, "If/when I feel rejected/unwanted again, I may very well consider having another affair." It's all blame shifting. He has to ultimately accept that there is absolutely zero excuse for cheating, and choosing to do so was his decision alone, not yours.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. You succinctly expressed what I have been thinking and feeling. Your suggestions were spot on. And we have talked about going to marriage counseling together several times (we went to separate counselors when the affair first happened, but he stopped after several sessions because he wasn't in agreement with the 'findings' of the counselor who was working with him) but we haven't identified the right person to see. But we definitely need to do it. You're absolutely right about his ability to fool himself into believing that as long as there isn't any physical contact - what he's doing isn't so wrong and that I shouldn't be upset. But I'm sure he wouldn't be happy if I were having conversations like that with other men.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

munchie said:


> we went to separate counselors when the affair first happened, but he stopped after several sessions because he wasn't in agreement with the 'findings' of the counselor But we definitely need to do it. You're absolutely right about his ability to fool himself into believing that as long as there isn't any physical contact - what he's doing isn't so wrong and that I shouldn't be upset. But I'm sure he wouldn't be happy if I were having conversations like that with other men.


Translation: HE expected to find a counselor who would BUY HIS BULLSH*T and, when he didn't, he QUIT.

Don't you see, munchie? You are his patsy. He has MOLDED you to be his dumb, pliable, sidekick who fixes HIS world to suit HIM. He has ABSOLUTELY no fear that you will leave him. So he continues to add on the abuse.

Nowhere in ANY of this do I see EITHER of you looking out for munchie.

You're an abuse victim. To listen to you defend him makes me want to puke.

Get some help.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

munchie said:


> Thank you very much. You succinctly expressed what I have been thinking and feeling. Your suggestions were spot on. And we have talked about going to marriage counseling together several times (we went to separate counselors when the affair first happened, but he stopped after several sessions because he wasn't in agreement with the 'findings' of the counselor who was working with him) but we haven't identified the right person to see. But we definitely need to do it. You're absolutely right about his ability to fool himself into believing that as long as there isn't any physical contact - what he's doing isn't so wrong and that I shouldn't be upset. But I'm sure he wouldn't be happy if I were having conversations like that with other men.


Of course the first thought here is "Well of course he's going to disagree with the 'findings' of the counselor, the counselor is going to try to hold him accountable to something that he doesn't agree he is guilty of." With that said, I also don't want to automatically assume that all therapists/counselors are right and all of their "patients" are wrong. If he doesn't agree with that counselor, I certainly would be suspicious, but it's certainly possible that this counselor was off base. However, that doesn't mean you can just quit, it just means he needs to try a different counselor, or even third one if he feels the same way about the 2nd. After that, if all of the counselors are coming to the same conclusions, then he needs to wake up and realize that HE is the one who is wrong. (Which we already know is the case here)

I'll also defend his ignorance here just a tiny bit for a moment. I don't want to suggest that his fooling himself into believing that he hasn't done anything wrong is some kind of a character flaw, or that it means he's an ******* or a bad husband/man, etc. Honestly, everyone has a tendency to do this because no one wants to believe that they are bad people, no one wants to accept that they are committing wrong on an ongoing basis. All of us will tend to view our own behaviors/choices in the most positive possible light, no matter the seriousness of the issue at hand. Maybe you cut someone off in traffic, or take two slices of cake at the company Christmas party when you were supposed to only have two, or rounded up your work hours this week on your time card at your job. Surely you can imagine little excuses you could employ for each of those things.

With an EA, it's really no different. I'll use myself and my EA as an example from a few years ago with a female co-worker. At the time, I denied I was doing anything wrong and I truly believed it, it wasn't a lie, I just didn't understand how destructive the relationship was to my marriage or that there was anything wrong with it at all. In my view, she was just a co-worker and a good friend. Along with a third male co-worker, we chatted off and on throughout the day, had lunch together probably 3-4 days a week, hung out outside of work probably 3-4 times a month (often times at my home). We were comfortable enough with each other to discuss literally anything, so nothing was considered too perverse, including our sex lives and even sexual interests. She and I even flew across the country to visit a mutual friend/co-worker together for a few days. We chatted via text or online with some frequency, but not obsessively every day. We were so close at work, that other co-workers even called us "Work Spouses," which we adopted completely and called each other that title openly in a joking manner, even in front of my wife. My wife was very uncomfortable with the whole thing, but only rarely expressed this discomfort out of fear of being viewed as controlling or jealous. The two times she and I were out of town together, when I came home, my wife was waiting at home in bed in lingerie, which NEVER happened, so that too was a good sign that she was concerned about me and the female co-worker.

Now here is how I defended it all. For starters, we never expressed any form of romantic or sexual interest in each other, and speaking for myself I know I never had an interest in her in that way either, which some who knew us might find surprising. 90% of the time that she and I were talking, hanging out, having lunch together, etc., our third male co-worker friend was with us as he was an equally close friend of both of us, the three of us called ourselves the "Trifecta," so it was rare that we were alone together or spoke truly privately. When we traveled across the country, we stayed with our mutual male friend at his home, in separate bedrooms. She was married too, and anytime we did hang out outside of the office, our spouses were always welcome to be there as well, so it was never a private thing by design. I was aware of my wife's discomfort with the friendship, but my response was to try to be as honest as I could with her about everything and involve her as much as possible so that she could see it was innocent. My intentions with that were certainly good, but that didn't make it right. In my view, I never lied to her about anything with this woman, but when I look back, I can probably imagine instances where I didn't tell the whole truth, not because I had done anything specifically wrong that I wanted to cover up, but maybe because I didn't want her to think that I had done anything wrong. One example, on our trip across the country to visit the friend, we had two days where our friend was working from roughly 8a-6p, during which we had to entertain ourselves. One of those days we decided to go on a hike in the mountains by ourselves, but when my wife asked how we spend those two days during the friends work day, I think I left that part out because I didn't want her to wonder if we had done anything inappropriate while alone together in the mountains. Certainly we didn't do anything inappropriate when we were on the hike, but my leaving that out was a lie by omission, and should have been a warning sign for me.

Despite there never being a romantic/sexual interest involved or expressed/discussed between her and I, I still would call it an EA. (Some would argue that a true EA at least involves a romantic/sexual interest, without actual physical contact) Either way, I can look back and realize I was wrong for a few key reasons. 1. No married person should be THAT close of friends with another opposite sex individual, regardless of any other factors. 2. No married person should discuss sexual matters or personal issues within his/her marriage with another opposite sex person. 3. If you feel like you need to lie, mislead, omit details, etc. in defense of a friendship/relationship to your spouse, then that automatically means it has probably gotten to an inappropriate level, regardless of whether any obviously inappropriate lines have been crossed. 4. While there is a fine line between a spouse who is overly jealous or controlling of your personal relationships, if your spouse is clearly uncomfortable about a particular opposite sex friendship/relationship over a period of time, then you owe it to him/her to stop and reevaluate the nature of that friendship/relationship with the other person. Since my wife didn't have a history of jealousy or controlling other friendships with women, her ongoing discomfort alone should have been enough for me to see that this friendship was a problem that needed to be addressed. Again, I don't want to say that just because your spouse is uncomfortable about a friendship of yours automatically means that you should end that friendship, because some people can become overly jealous/controlling by nature which is a problem that should be addressed, but if your spouse doesn't have that tendency, then it is probably best that you end or make an adjustment to that friendship out of love/respect for your spouse.


So my point in all that was to say that in my case, I really had no idea that I was doing anything wrong, and therefore it certainly wasn't intentional. When our first counselor first suggested that maybe my friendship with the other woman qualified as an EA, I was very defensive because I really did not agree at all, I didn't think I had crossed any boundary lines, so I too thought that maybe this was just an overly sensitive counselor and maybe we aught to find someone else. That's genuinely how I felt, and my justifications for that perception weren't crazy or manipulative at all, they were just missing the point and I didn't realize that damage had been done regardless. I don't feel that this misunderstanding made me a bad man/husband, just an ignorant one.

So I say all of that because once I realized where I was wrong and misunderstanding things, I was able to truly make amends with the situation and I think if you asked my wife today, she'd probably say that I've turned a complete 180 from the man I was before our marriage broke down. Certainly I'm not perfect by any stretch, and even realizing I was wrong doesn't mean I haven't occasionally repeated old bad habits because habits take TIME to break, not just a realization that they are bad. It is however possible for a guy in that situation to have this sort of wake-up call and, with time and reinforcement, truly make big changes that enable him to be a far better man/husband than he ever was before.

I'm not suggesting that this could 100% happen with your husband, or that you should expect that or even let him know that you are hopeful for something like that. I'm just suggesting that you keep in mind that it is possible, it does happen, so maybe you can keep just the tiniest eye open for the possibility as you move forward, just in case. It would be pretty unfortunate if he were to have that wake-up call, but by then you were too far gone and hardened to him (however justifiably) for it to make a difference.


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

munchie said:


> He blames the affair with the OW (unfairly) on me because according to him, I "rejected' him and "didn't give him the affection and attention" that he needed over the years.


The last thing that your husband should be doing is blaming you for HIS affair. It is typical for cheaters to blame their affair on their spouse. It's called blame shifting and it is total bull****. It indicates a complete lack of remorse.

Adulterers lie and manipulate and this is no different. What he did was wrong and he knows it so in order to remove the focus off him he puts it on you so that he doesn't have to face consequences or take responsibility for his behaviour.

He will also make the marriage out to be worse than it is (rewriting of marital history) so that he can justify his affair and inappropriate behaviour and also use it in pursuing women.

He alone is responsible for his affair and behaviour, that is a fact. You do not control him or his actions. He alone sought out these relations and engaged in them. You both hold responsibility in your marriage but he owns his affairs and behaviours 100%, do not let him tell or convince you otherwise.

He has treated you way worse than he "claims" you've treated him and did you go off and have an affair? No, because of your character, love and respect. Make no mistake, he engages in these inappropriate relationships and had his affair because he wanted to and enjoys doing them..

The sad part of this is you lack strength and confidence within yourself to stand up to him and instead end up believing these accusations and accepting fault even though you know they're bull****.


munchie said:


> After the affair, I did take some responsibility for not doing a better job in making him feel more wanted, important, etc





munchie said:


> I'm trying really hard to make amends for MY past mistakes


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

munchie said:


> It's like he's my fourth child.


You're right. Your husband is a child and do you know how children learn? Through the consequences of their actions. Your husband hasn't experienced any consequences and therefore won't change his attitude and behaviour.



munchie said:


> He would often suggest an overnight get-away at a nearby hotel but my response would be "that sounds fun ... but I don't know who I can get to stay over and watch the kids" He knew how difficult it was to find someone (and it was always MY job to find the babysitter). But if I was unable to find someone, he would perceive that as my rejecting him.


This is utterly ridiculous. I hope you see how stupid this is. He wanted a gateaway but besides merely suggesting it made no discernible effort to make it happen. You did nothing wrong, you were being a responsible mother. Why couldn't he have arranged for a baby-sitter? He's a grown man, it shouldn't have been too hard for him to do. So in addition to being a cheater he is also lazy, unreasonable and entitled.



munchie said:


> My husband has always said that he's the 'kind of guy people like to tell things to.' He's a friendly guy who makes people (especially women) feel comfortable and loves to say inappropriate things at questionable times because he likes to get a laugh or attention


He isn't the kind of guy that people just tell things to. He is the kind that enquires and persists until that type of relationship is formed. It doesn't magically happen without is effort, he pursues it with an objective in mind.



munchie said:


> He often tells the college friend (not the old girlfriend) that she's beautiful, has nice eyes, should be treated well, etc. (She's a divorced woman who hasn't had much luck in the dating world)


This is him actively pursueing a relationship with another woman. Someone who is proabably vulnerable and open to his advances.



munchie said:


> nd then he'll say something like "Well ... at least you're getting some action ... who knows when I'll be getting 'it' again


As *TRy* has mentioned, this is him letting her now that he is available. This is how affairs begin. They start with texts and messages then calls, meeting in person and then escalate. This is such a common story used by cheating men to get women. They'll say that they are unhappy in their marriage or that their wives neglect them, they don't sleep together, are only staying in the marriage because of the children, they want to divorce but can't because of family, friends or social pressures, etc. I'm sure you've seen or heard this before in your life somewhere. It does actually work.



munchie said:


> I honestly don't think he's interested in leaving and oddly enough


He won't leave. Not until he has found himself a better option and a sure thing that is worth leaving you for.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you ready to ditch him and move on?


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