# Attraction / Chemistry vs. Love & Projection.



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Is there a real difference?
What causes it?
Is there a science behind attraction?
What part does evolution play?
What about social constructs / culture? 

Lets suppose for a moment that you were single and about to choose a mate.
Lets suppose that perspective mate, male or female stood behind a solid screen divided into two portions. The top portion blocking the face , and the bottom portion blocking the person's body.

If you had the option to view only one part of that person , either face or body, before you chose, 
Which would you choose to view and why?
Face or body?

The main purpose of this thread is to discuss; 
1]What causes visceral attraction.
2]What part does age, culture , media etc, play?
3]What is he difference between chemistry and love. Can you be in love if there was little chemistry?
4]Why are we sometimes in love with one person and sexually attracted to another?
5]What sustains chemistry in an LTR and what causes it to die?
6] Projection, does it help build intimacy or does it hurt?
7] Anything else you might feel to add!


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

Goodness, CM, are you writing a dissertation? 

IMO, there is a difference btn. chemistry and love. I think most people know soon after meeting a potential mate whether there's any chemistry there or not. 

If I could only view one part of a person, I'd choose the face over the body. Eyes are important to me.

*1]What causes visceral attraction.*

Each of us has their own likes, but science shows that people with a certain facial symmetry are considered attractive by a wide range of people. Biologically, men are programmed to like certain things that denote youth, femininity and fertility. Women are programmed to like traits that denote protectiveness and masculinity. 
*
2]What part does age, culture , media etc, play?*

It depends on the person. When I was younger, I was all into women's magazines, but now, I don't read them. I don't care about "10 Things That Men Wish You Would Wear". I only care what my H likes, so these mags pushing an agenda are useless to me. The models are usually too skinny and from what I hear men say, they don't want a stick figure, they prefer women with a little meat on their bones.

*3]What is he difference between chemistry and love. Can you be in love if there was little chemistry?*

Chemistry, IMO, is a feeling of attraction to a person. It's either there or it's not. I don't think it's the same as love, and for me, I don't think I'd feel I was in love with someone if we had no chemistry. 

*4]Why are we sometimes in love with one person and sexually attracted to another?*

Simple lust. Some people just have that _something_ that turns on the heat. For me, it's dark hair and dark eyes; I like men with hair on their chest. So when I see an attractive man like that, I recognize that I find him attractive, and if I were single, maybe would consider dating him. Finding someone hot doesn't mean I don't love my H, though. For the both of us, we're married, not dead. 

*5]What sustains chemistry in an LTR and what causes it to die?*

I think being able to enjoy one another's company helps, and continuing to find them attractive. I guess losing interest in someone sexually would kill chemistry, especially if an outside party is involved.

*6] Projection, does it help build intimacy or does it hurt?*

I think it helps build intimacy. Chemistry makes you _want_ to be closer to that person and in most cases, that fosters intimacy.

Despite my and my H's ups and downs over the course of our M, especially this past year, we've always had pretty good chemistry. Even at our worst, I still found him attractive. I can't say I was feeling _in love_ all the time, but gradually, that's returned. I know enough now to not panic if I ever have that feeling again; I'll just try and think more positively about him, remember our good times over the bad and realize that I have a genuine affection for him that never goes away.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MambaZee said:


> Goodness, CM, are you writing a dissertation?


Lol,

No dear!
I'm just trying to start a discussion on something that most people here on TAM and in real life seem to confuse a lot.
But there are so many variables and so forth that I didn't want to dovetail the discussion into one direction.

For instance ,
I think the average person cannot say why they're attracted to a certain type of person / physical appearance , but there are actually psychological reasons why.

BTW, Thanks for your detailed response!

What attracted you to your husband?
Was it physical attraction mostly ,and then other stuff or was it the other way around?


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

I'll bite...

I find it interesting that a lot of people put a lot of stock in physical chemistry and then as soon as they get married they start to let themselves go. They get comfortable in the marriage, and they stop making the effort towards self improvement that they used to make.

I think chemistry is very important and I think that each one should do what they can to improve themselves, both physically and mentally.

I have been in relationships where I was less attracted physically and I felt less into the relationship. For me it is important. I am not looking for perfect - just someone who makes an effort.

The emotional and mental aspects of a person are also important - I broke up with someone who had it going physically but emotionally they had issues they had not resolved. Even so it was the toughest break up of my life, and someone who I still sometimes long for - but I think that I am missing the gal who took real good care of her body - not the gal who had the emotional issues, i.e not the real person...

That being said I think if I were participating in your study I would care more about what their body looked like.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

sparkyjim said:


> That being said I think if I were participating in your study I would care more about what their body looked like.



Actually I saw that study some time ago on a psychology website dealing with the science behind attraction..

But based on your response I think you and I are different. If I had to , I would prefer to see the person's face.
I guess I'm just more attracted to a certain of facial features.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

You may not like this answer but we are basically feedback 
loops that respond to chemical responses inherited and learned. Many things are acquired tastes and many are not. Most people are conditioned to conform to a societally agreed upon beauty at least verbally. But I have observed that most people are just drawn to certain types because they like them. The neural nets in our bodies are activated by those patterns. 

The underlying chemistry of the feedback loop is discussed in the Fog v. love link in my signature. Now I think your usage of the term chemistry different from the way I use it. If you mean reciprocal mutual interest then it's when two people have similar feedback reactions. 

With this notion feedback loop and the neural chemistry of emotion it is easier to see the love, feelings are not mutually exclusive. You can love more than one person and you can love and not be attracted to someone etc. The complexities of the human neural nets allow for all combinations including love-hate. 

Your questions to MambaZee are insightful. With my wife I was attracted first to her intellect and confidence. Only later when (a few years after I met her) i knew she was available did I really take in her attractiveness and consider her someone to pursue. 

Usually for me it happens the other way around. Physical attractiveness is usually (for me anyway) spoiled by some other trait that I encounter later. Take for example the scene in Grownups where the buff fellow attracts the wives up until he speaks with an screachy high voice. But for me it's not the voice but what they say, think or their inability for ratiocination.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> You may not like this answer but we are basically feedback
> loops that respond to chemical responses inherited and learned. Many things are acquired tastes and many are not. Most people are conditioned to conform to a societally agreed upon beauty at least verbally. But I have observed that most people are just drawn to certain types because they like them. The neural nets in our bodies are activated by those patterns.
> 
> The underlying chemistry of the feedback loop is discussed in the Fog v. love link in my signature. Now I think your usage of the term chemistry different from the way I use it. If you mean reciprocal mutual interest then it's when two people have similar feedback reactions.
> ...


I agree 100% with your take messon.
Have you ever came across the Jungian concept of projection , and do you think it can be connected to some of what we think is attraction?


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Is there a real difference?
> What causes it?
> Is there a science behind attraction? If there is, I don't really care.
> What part does evolution play? I would not pick a cro magnun man who fought wooly mammoths,
> ...


 I hope I did this quote thing right. I am kinds new here.


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## MambaZee (Aug 6, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> What attracted you to your husband?
> Was it physical attraction mostly ,and then other stuff or was it the other way around?


Definitely a physical attraction. That's how it is with me; I know this because with my bf's before him, it was the same way. I see someone, I'm attracted, I want to get to know them. The reason the other bf's ended up exes is because once I got to know them better, there were things I didn't like. So I was still attracted physically, but that was all there was. I can't build a relationship on that one thing.

And what sparkyjim said about people letting themselves go once they get comfortable in a relationship -- I know a lot of people do that, and it stinks. It's one thing if a person is really trying to lose weight/get in shape to look better and is having a hard time with it, and it's another if they've just stopped caring. Why should a partner stop caring just because they're in a relationship? I hope that my efforts to stay in shape and attractive for my H are what keeps our chemistry going. He also makes an effort to look good for me, so that attraction, after 20+ years, is still there.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MambaZee said:


> And what sparkyjim said about people letting themselves go once they get comfortable in a relationship -- I know a lot of people do that, and it stinks. *It's one thing if a person is really trying to lose weight/get in shape to look better and is having a hard time with it, and it's another if they've just stopped caring. Why should a partner stop caring just because they're in a relationship? I hope that my efforts to stay in shape and attractive for my H are what keeps our chemistry going. He also makes an effort to look good for me, so that attraction, after 20+ years, is still there.*


:iagree:

And guess what?
That's why I started this thread.
I basically made this point in another thread just a few days ago.
The point is , we are only human and we are bound by certain emotions / feelings / hormonal / chemical stuff that_ does_ have an effect on our behaviours.
To deny these that these exist is only courting trouble.
In any event, even if a person is single, staying fit, maintaining their weight and physical appearance translates into a better feeling of themselves.
Their self esteem improves.
Basic common sense.


BTW, Congrats on your 20+ years! 
Wish there were lots more like you posting here, there is so much to learn from the actual experience of others.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

CM I wish I had the mental stamina to to think through and answer your questions but at 34 weeks everything beginning to slow down. LOL

However I love reading about relationship dynamic. It's fascinating to me because logically I think our marriage should not have work and it was extremely risky. Young 18 year old naive high school virgin who never had a boyfriend but had plenty boys for pals (the nerdy) types. Versus 22 year old tall and handsome charisma bad boy who spent the last 4 years of his life being a playa. We were both foolish and knew nothing but somehow over these few 8 years of marriage we have evolve and I must say with only a few bump in the road. We also have maintain a excitement and hotness in our marriage that it always seem fresh. 

Chemistry? Or too soon to tell?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> I agree 100% with your take messon.
> Have you ever came across the Jungian concept of projection , and do you think it can be connected to some of what we think is attraction?


No, I am not really versed in Jungian theories so I can’t really provide much insight there. Determining what is a projection and what is not to me has been a troubling part of those ideas for me. But from what I do know the concept of projection is a way of explaining one-sided emotions. So a crush on someone or a one-sided love of someone can be called a projection becomes it comes from within not from a reciprocating love. 
This is consistent with the neural chemistry view because the positive reinforcement from any interaction is completely internal to an individual and others may not be aware of it at all. If the brain gets a high from interactions with somebody, that high might later become love whether or not it becomes reciprocated or even known to the other person. 
The fact is that from either perspective people will act on feelings that originate internally from that persons experience or inherited inclinations.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> CM I wish I had the mental stamina to to think through and answer your questions but at 34 weeks everything beginning to slow down. LOL
> 
> However I love reading about relationship dynamic. It's fascinating to me because logically I think our marriage should not have work and it was extremely risky. Young 18 year old naive high school virgin who never had a boyfriend but had plenty boys for pals (the nerdy) types. Versus 22 year old tall and handsome charisma bad boy who spent the last 4 years of his life being a playa. We were both foolish and knew nothing but somehow over these few 8 years of marriage we have evolve and I must say with only a few bump in the road. We also have maintain a excitement and hotness in our marriage that it always seem fresh.
> 
> Chemistry? Or too soon to tell?


Based on what you have posted here before, definitely there's lots of sexual chemistry between you and your husband.
Your relationship history also fascinates me. I believe that every relationship is different , and successful ones, the dynamic most times don't follow a prescribed script.
What I've noticed is that relationships where external issues cause the odds to be stacked against the couple , are usually successful.
Maybe its because both partners see themselves as a single interdependent unit rather than two separate people " trying to make it work."
I don't know, just my observation, maybe its wrong , lol, maybe there is an element of truth in it.

But may I ask, what caused you to be attracted to your husband?
Physical looks?
You mentioned he was the " _bad boy_ " type with lots of girls around, how come that didn't kill your attraction in the begining?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Actually I saw that study some time ago on a psychology website dealing with the science behind attraction..
> 
> But based on your response I think you and I are different. If I had to , I would prefer to see the person's face.
> I guess I'm just more attracted to a certain of facial features.


Facial recognition has been demonstrated in infants and is one of the first things they learn. The face is a significant conveyor of emotion for lots of people but it isn’t everything. I saw this lady yesterday with very good looking legs nicely proportioned and in high heels. However the legs were conveyors of information as well. As it turns out while I was driving home from work I saw the same lady get in a car at the farthest parking lot in a space away from other spaces. Her legs told me she was fit and active and seeing her get into the car away from all others confirmed it. 
The point is that people match what they see to what they know or feel and it varies from person to person.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

meson said:


> No, I am not really versed in Jungian theories so I can’t really provide much insight there. Determining what is a projection and what is not to me has been a troubling part of those ideas for me. * But from what I do know the concept of projection is a way of explaining one-sided emotions. So a crush on someone or a one-sided love of someone can be called a projection becomes it comes from within not from a reciprocating love. *
> This is consistent with the neural chemistry view because the positive reinforcement from any interaction is completely internal to an individual and others may not be aware of it at all. If the brain gets a high from interactions with somebody, that high might later become love whether or not it becomes reciprocated or even known to the other person.
> The fact is that from either perspective people will act on feelings that originate internally from that persons experience or inherited inclinations.


Yes!

That is it.

I think many people confuse projection with having found a
" soul mate ."
So this projection is really an internal ideal, thought process, or state that is attributed to another person. 
The individual knows what they desire and have this mental picture of their ideal mate.
Then they project these qualities into the individual they are physically attracted to. They cross reference this other person’s behaviour to their ideal. If the person doing the projection is not emotionally healthy or mature , they then fool themselves into believing that they have found their " soul mate."

Now like your post implied, we all do some projection from time to time. But in some cases like I mentioned above, during the course of time the partner falls short of the projected ideal and reality hits. I guess, the attraction dies.
But the dicey part is if the person has not grown emotionally and learned from the experience, they return and start the entire
" fantasy / projection process" all over again.

I think this can explain how some people find themselves trapped in bad relationships over and over again.
Also it might explain partly how some seemingly good marriages, where partners are
" deeply in love " falls into affairs.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Now like your post implied, we all do some projection from time to time. But in some cases like I mentioned above, during the course of time the partner falls short of the projected ideal and reality hits. I guess, the attraction dies.
> But the dicey part is if the person has not grown emotionally and learned from the experience, they return and start the entire
> " fantasy / projection process" all over again.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think it does explain much with respect to affairs. How many times have we heard a spouse say everything was great and they have had the same ups and downs as other marriages but they were blindsided when their spouse gives the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” speech. Spouses are not mind readers, they will not necessarily know when someone feels differently about them unless there are actions to back it up or it is communicated. Most of the time its not communicated and the actions are discounted to stress or other factors. 

My EA can be neatly described as a case of projection. The OW was a powerful source of personal growth and improvement for me in so many ways it is not surprising that I developed feelings for her. But fortunately my wife and I were still strongly connected at that time so I didn’t have the vacuum of a poor relationship to rationalize any further unfaithful behavior. Otherwise you could have summed up meson’s story with a projection that led to an EA/PA and ruined another marriage.


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> Yes!
> 
> That is it.
> 
> ...


When I read this part, I was thinking about the extreme example, which would be a celebrity stalker type. The celebrity has all the physical qualities that appeal to the stalker, so the stalker actually invents a relationship in their mind and then convince themselves that the relationship is real. The celebrity is now a "soul mate" because all of those wonderful qualities have been attributed to that person by the stalker's imagination.

Of course, most of us see it for what it is, however the stalker begins to feel that these emotions are real and reciprocated by the celebrity. It isn't real at all, it's a projection.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

survivorwife said:


> When I read this part, I was thinking about the extreme example, which would be a celebrity stalker type. The celebrity has all the physical qualities that appeal to the stalker, so the stalker actually invents a relationship in their mind and then convince themselves that the relationship is real. The celebrity is now a "soul mate" because all of those wonderful qualities have been attributed to that person by the stalker's imagination.
> 
> Of course, most of us see it for what it is, however the stalker begins to feel that these emotions are real and reciprocated by the celebrity. It isn't real at all, it's a projection.


But do you think that ordinary people usually project what we want to see in a person we're attracted to in the beginning of a relationship with them?
They say at the beginning of a relationship, a "bargaining process" usually takes place internally.
Each person entering a relationship is aware of the attributes that they bring to the table. These attributes could be physical attractiveness, financial security, a good temperament, highly intelligent, kindness, being attentive, considerate, a good lover in bed, etc. 
Being aware of these in ourselves, we tend to want someone who is comparable.
Sometimes the person is really not up to mark , so we compromise, and in some cases , project.

Have you ever seen this in " normal " people.
Has it ever happened to you?
What about the concept of, an internal " bargaining process " at the beginning of a relationship during the attraction phase, can you identify with it?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess by *"visceral*" *attraction**"* - you mean >> Primal...felt in or as if in the internal organs of the body, dealing with crude or elemental emotions.... 'head over heels"..." Love at 1st sight" weak at the knees stuff...

I didn't feel this when I met my husband...his big glasses concealed his good looks and the clothes he wore weren't helping matters...I just gave the nice guy a chance cause all other boys seemed so immature...all they did was flirt & was fly by night idiots....I did not have butterflies , but I was perfectly comfortable with him, I was my crazy self from day 1..... Most would have "friend zoned" him... but it didn't work out that way for us...

Don't even know if any of this fits on this thread...but what had me fall in love with him...is *HOW I FELT AROUND HIM* (bubbly, alive, I could wear myself on my sleeve & be loved for it!)...*How he made me feel about myself *..(like I was the most precious thing- of great worth.... my confidence grew)... *how I felt about US*..(I could so easily see a bright future with this one)....and without glasses, some Levi's & boots, a little long hair, he was pretty  !....so very DOable... 

There was another boy that liked me that was drop dead gorgeous after we met...he was from another school... I was very tempted...talked to him on the phone a few times...but I stayed true to my Boyfriend.... and hooked him up with a friend & we all went to the Prom together... Something deep inside just told me I wouldn't find another guy who loved me like that...and I wanted that sort of  

....Or I'd be making the biggest mistake of my life... I wasn't going to trade "Looks"- that Primal attraction and let it sweep me somewhere that couldn't equal -*what we had together*...we surely had "'Chemistry" ...as we quickly became inseparable. All our friends took a hit...this really never subsided, even after what they call the 18 month "whirlwind" phase of new relationships.

I feel I made all the right choices in my youth in this regard...and I can honestly say...once we married...I never wanted anyone else, never had an EA, PA...He was my True Love, it doesn't have to start out with ...this can come a little down the road...as you grow to know each other..(and take the glasses off - I am so shallow I know!) 



Caribbean Man said:


> I think many people confuse projection with having found a
> " soul mate ."
> So this projection is really an internal ideal, thought process, or state that is attributed to another person.
> The individual knows what they desire and have this mental picture of their ideal mate.
> *Then they project these qualities into the individual they are physically attracted to. They cross reference this other person’s behaviour to their ideal. If the person doing the projection is not emotionally healthy or mature , they then fool themselves into believing that they have found their " soul mate."*


 I think we all want to fall deeply in love, don't we....I can see how this happens, I liked another Boy before I met my husband...I wanted him to be "the one"......but he liked my GF over me... 

I don't think I ever projected too much because I wouldn't allow myself to even entertain I was "all that" to someone unless they went out of their way to prove it to me..by actions. 

That one never did...so it was a "hold on loosely" type thing.. but of course I was only 15 ... Mrs "dreaming of the one" at such a young age. 

*Reciprocation* was an absolute must...or nothing gets off the ground with me... I was the girl in high school saying to my friends who were going gaga over the popular boys... "What do you like that jerk for, he'll never give you the time of day"...I was a big naysayer ....one might say. Even back then, I was evaluating relationships and the likelihood they might last.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> But do you think that ordinary people usually project what we want to see in a person we're attracted to in the beginning of a relationship with them?
> They say at the beginning of a relationship, a "bargaining process" usually takes place internally.
> Each person entering a relationship is aware of the attributes that they bring to the table. These attributes could be physical attractiveness, financial security, a good temperament, highly intelligent, kindness, being attentive, considerate, a good lover in bed, etc.
> Being aware of these in ourselves, we tend to want someone who is comparable.
> ...


 I think it’s more of they assume what they feel is also felt by the other. The feelings overwhelm more rational considerations including gut feelings that a person is unsuitable in some ways. The good feelings literally make the unsuitable warnings seem small and insignificant and in the short term may be ignored. Whether or not this is really a projection I can’t say. 

This has happened to me. I was engaged to another and she had several things that I overlooked as did she in our relationship. These differences helped contribute to the decay of the relationship when we tried a long distance relationship while we went to different schools. Anyway what I learned was the appearance of reciprocated feelings is not enough. You need to be convinced the others feelings are valid. You yourself also need to grow from a relationship it needs to feed your soul more than the high from the “love”. This required an external process for me when getting to know my wife. So no I don’t think much of any process which is internal or left to just one person.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Great thread, CaribbeanMan!



Caribbean Man said:


> The main purpose of this thread is to discuss;
> 1]What causes visceral attraction.


Well, like you said, i'ts visceral. It's almost like an "instant" feeling you get. But it can be different. It can just be a "Wow that person is hot" or maybe you liked the way someone did something. 



Caribbean Man said:


> 2]What part does age, culture , media etc, play?


Oh I think movies and tv shows have this "ideal" of what is supposed to happen so a lot of people think this is how it should be in real life.



Caribbean Man said:


> 3]What is he difference between chemistry and love. Can you be in love if there was little chemistry?


Chemistry doesn't have to be romantic. For instance, I had GREAT chemistry with one of my colleagues. We could laugh and poke fun at things and finish eachothers' trains of thoughts, but there was no romantic attraction. 

Love is a different beast. There is an attachment tied into it that is unlike anything else. But I think that with love there is a chemistry, just different. It's romantic in nature. 



Caribbean Man said:


> 4]Why are we sometimes in love with one person and sexually attracted to another?


Because we are humans with real live hormones. It's normal to find other people sexually attractive. It's part of being alive, not dead. 



Caribbean Man said:


> 5]What sustains chemistry in an LTR and what causes it to die?


Sustains: mutual committment, love for eachother, respect, communication, compatibility, being on the same page, wanting the best for eachother/the relationship;
Dies: resentment, lack of respect, unmet needs, unhappiness (due to the other things), poor communication



Caribbean Man said:


> 6] Projection, does it help build intimacy or does it hurt?


Both. Depends.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh and just to add, there are men who I have found incredibly sexually attractive who perhaps a lot of women may not find them that way. Granted, everyone has their own preferences, type, etc. But there are men who I wouldn't have even considered my "type" (whatever that is) who really were so attractive to me. They just had "something" about them.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> What I've noticed is that relationships where external issues cause the odds to be stacked against the couple , are usually successful.


Expand on this. What do you mean?


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> But may I ask, what caused you to be attracted to your husband?
> Physical looks?
> You mentioned he was the " _bad boy_ " type with lots of girls around, how come that didn't kill your attraction in the begining?


CM it's no way I can make this story less cheesy than it is! LOL!my first encounter with him was when I was a freshman, he a senior, first day of high school for me. I had gone to my locker to unload some books, and someone else had my locker with a lock on it. Exasperated, I tried to adjust my books, the late bell rang right over my head and scared me to death making me drop everything, tried to lean down to pick up my books with a short skirt on and said "so much for making a good impression on the first day". Mr c4E saw this, bends down to help me at the same time the girl with him says, giggling "must be a freshman". He helps me, says "don't worry it will get better" stands up and I'm taken back by how tall and handsome he is. I couldn't keep my eyes off of him for that whole year of school before he graduate, but he never gave me the time of day. 

I even made friends with his sister, who was in my Spanish class, and went over their house a lot to "study". I told her the deal and she bribed me to braid her hair for free (I charged $75.00 to braid hair) so that I could go over and oogle her brother. After he graduate was when I began to see the parade of women come to his house, some of whom were older than him. He always spoke to me, kidded with me like the buddy of his kid sister that I was, but never showed interest. His sister would just shake her head and say why don't you give up? I lost contact with his sister when she went off to college but she called me when she was home that summer to braid her hair. She was to take me home but her car wouldn't start and she ask to use his. He wouldn't let her use his car but volunteer to take me home himself and that was the beginning of us. When I mention his many women he told me had reform his lifestyle. I didn't believe him and thought he want to add me to that list but I was so smitten that we were talking, it was like I was living a dream. And here we are 14 years later. 

You should hear his side of this story.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I guess by *"visceral*" *attraction**"* - you mean >> Primal...felt in or as if in the internal organs of the body, dealing with crude or elemental emotions.... 'head over heels"..." Love at 1st sight" weak at the knees stuff...
> 
> I didn't feel this when I met my husband...his big glasses concealed his good looks and the clothes he wore weren't helping matters...I just gave the nice guy a chance cause all other boys seemed so immature...all they did was flirt & was fly by night idiots....I did not have butterflies , but I was perfectly comfortable with him, I was my crazy self from day 1..... Most would have "friend zoned" him... but it didn't work out that way for us...
> 
> ...


Simply, 
Thanks for posting your view on this thread, I appreciate yours as well as everyone else's input!

I want to ask you a question.
BTW, again congratulations again , on your 24th wedding anniversary. I just occurred to me that if you all have been together since you were 15 years old , then both of you have been romantically involved in a MONOGAMOUS relationship for over 30 years?
Am I correct?

You mentioned a lot about your teen years in school , how and why you found your husband attractive.
Now it has been said by the experts, lol, not Caribbean Man, that our early childhood experiences and memory formation lead to attraction to others later in life.
We form strong memories from our early childhood experiences. 

These memories, which remain mostly in our subconscious, tend to dictate our attraction to others. The unconscious mind picks up on inconspicuous, subtle cues,like maybe an expression, the way a person talks, and though consciously we may not understand why, we find ourselves attracted to someone.
So here's the question.
You have been attracted to your husband from since you were a teenager.
What was your childhood experiences with men like?
Can you identify any trait in him which you were attracted to , that maybe an adult male earlier in your childhood had?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Expand on this. What do you mean?



Ok.

What I meant is that from my observation, whenever a couple have to fight against external odds to survive and reach a shared goal, for example, if they come from different backgrounds religious, cultural , race , socioeconomic and so on. If they band together and face the odds, the trials tend to make the bonds between them stronger.
I think it may be because they have no time or energy to focus on each others faults , or they choose not to
They become closer.
Just my observation, it may or may not be factual.
What do you think?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I suppose it could be true.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm convinced that women who are quirky in some way can attract men....fewer maybe but the attraction is deeper. My mother and my sister always tell me how funny I dress and how funny my hair looks. But then, I end up in relationships where the man is devoted to me.

But I think there are beliefs that people insist upon holding on to that they denigrate everything that they witness to get that belief to fit every example that they see. 

My fiance and I are were just visiting my mother. She was so tetchy around us. What for, I don't know. Then he offered to take her to dinner and afterwards, one of his friends scored some tickets to Michael Buble......... she got into a better mood for the rest of the week. 

But of course, women who dress funny like me and who have their hair all over their head (btw, my English (ex)H asked me, where else is it supposed to be) don't deserve good men. Yah, know......

You know this sentiment is going on when you hear:
1. She thinks he likes her but he doesn't.
2. He only sees her as a short term fling.
3. He only sees her as GFN girl.

and so on.......


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm convinced that women who are quirky in some way can attract men....fewer maybe but the attraction is deeper.


Can you elaborate on this some more?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Caribbean Man said:


> Can you elaborate on this some more?


I was not very popular friendwise up until my 30s. But I always had a date. And offers for a relationship.

Even my sister who I realise sees herself in competition with me dating wise has remarked on this. She's very much the typical black middle class type -- traditional profession ie medical doctor; very little curiosity intellectually so that has given her great scope to put me down for the "wierd things" that interest me; for a long time she had total disinterest in white culture, never liked a white artist until her 40s but got I got stick for following white music from high school; and so on........

I think it's quite common for the popular types to assume that they will always get the guy and then get pissed when they are passed over. Remember the common question "what does he see in her?"


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

I met my H online, therefore we got to now each other before we ever physically met.
Okay, no laughing at this, but when we met, it was as if everything around me stopped, I got this roaring in my ears & couldn't hear anything as he walked up to me.
It was electric, the immediate connection I felt to him. 
I do believe my breath was taken away too. 
I knew what he looked like, so it wasn't like I expected Quasimodo & got Brad Pitt, it was intangible.
Then once I smelled him, wearing no cologne, just all him, I fell hard, BUT I wasn't cognizant of these feelings while I was in the moment. 
It wasn't until later, when I could dissect the date, rehash the feelings he stirred up & analyze what it all meant, was I able to remember our 1st meeting. 
The crazy thing was I was not looking for a LTR, just wanted to go on a few dates, nothing serious.
But I said, "WTH, let's see where this can go" & now 7+ years later, we're still together.
When asked about our 1st meeting, my H has said that it was the best day in his life, because he knew I was special & our connection was too great to ignore.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Caribbean Man said:


> I want to ask you a question.
> BTW, again congratulations again , on your 24th wedding anniversary. I just occurred to me that *if you all have been together since you were 15 years old , then both of you have been romantically involved in a MONOGAMOUS relationship for over 30 years?
> Am I correct?*


 Yes, since April 30, 1982 ~ 31 yrs ago ...( after so many yrs & never having dated another...I was questioning if I may regret that...so I gave his ring back & had a very short lived fling with another... my "sowing oats" moment... I only kissed that guy.. I quickly realized I missed my *best friend*...HE was my FOREVER... So we moved in together, planned our big wedding... (I've only kissed 3 boys in my life ... my neighbor at 13ish & that little fling)...



> You mentioned a lot about your teen years in school , how and why you found your husband attractive.
> Now it has been said by the experts, lol, not Caribbean Man, *that our early childhood experiences and memory formation lead to attraction to others later in life.*
> We form strong memories from our early childhood experiences.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm... I wasn't close to my Dad, had no brothers, I liked my Uncles more than my Aunts (just funnier and easier to get along with)....my 1st best friend was a Boy, he showed me how to ride my bike, we used to get in trouble.... he moved when I was 6...I always seemed to gravitate to all the brothers of my Girlfriends....but as we grew older......they then were mysterious creatures...and I had to be very careful what I do with them...plus an awkwardness grew, if I found them very cute. 

Me & my best friend used to go to Firehall rock concerts, dim lights, heavy metal, and cute boys... I always had my eye on this one or that one...but we were so young...13 ...14...nothing ever happened. Many young crushes, they never knew...I was very shy! 

I watched a lot of TV in my little room growing up, Rock music my escape/ MY JOY.... rock stars ...the ultimate fantasy...if anything shaped my attraction... it was This... one of my EARLY favorites was Bob Geldof from the Boom town Rats......Never forget the moment he stepped on the Mike Douglas show (long before Oprah) singing  I Don't Like Mondays - YouTube...it's a sick song.... but I was in AWE...electrified.... Something about him made me SWOOON...terribly attractive .... *>>*







.... I had a crush on every Monty Python character too.. I had some WEIRD taste in men...so I've been told... ha ha And if they were British.. .... I'd probably faint... I had a British pen pal for a time in my teens...







....

But ya know....*fantasy needs to meet reality*.. I wasn't going to run off with a Rock Band.... (their lifestyle was in complete odds with my beliefs anyway)...such conflict in the brain...... I didn't even want a guy who smoked! and I sure wouldn't be meeting anyone from England in my teens... 

So who in my real life was an Example... through the heartfelt stories of my Grandmother ....I'd have to say *my Grandfather* ...I had many pictures look upon of their years together....(he died when I was 6 yrs old).... I wanted a *love story* similar to theirs... he was a very Respectable loving man who cared for his family...treated her wonderful.... when they met, she wasn't all that interested.. she had a great job in the Pottery & was happy...but he was nuts about her and kept pursuing her... He kept coming around....he eventually wore her down.... 

And she loved the life they created with 2 little boys...(one my father - a change of life baby)... She used to always tell me.. ... how a man treats his mother, will give you a clue to how he will treat his wife..... I listened to these things...(corny as they may sound to some).... she also told me shortly after she met my husband..... he reminded her of my Grandfather... what more needed said! 

And he had black hair & that lanky body that turns my head like Geldof !!


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> My mother and my sister always tell me how funny I dress and how funny my hair looks. But then, I end up in relationships where the man is devoted to me.


I don't think having a man devoted to you (or anyone's devotion) is based on how one dresses or their hairstyle. It's about the commitment. 

But I am a fan of quirkiness. 



Phenix70 said:


> Okay, no laughing at this, but when we met, it was as if everything around me stopped, I got this roaring in my ears & couldn't hear anything as he walked up to me.
> It was electric, the immediate connection I felt to him.
> I do believe my breath was taken away too.
> 
> When asked about our 1st meeting, my H has said that it was the best day in his life, because he knew I was special & our connection was too great to ignore.


Love this! :smthumbup: Sometimes you just KNOW. Those immediate feelings of a connection are awesome.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I don't think having a man devoted to you (or anyone's devotion) is based on how one dresses or their hairstyle. It's about the commitment.
> 
> But I am a fan of quirkiness.


I know that..... You know that......

But a lot of people hold on to certain beliefs and are determined to find any little piece of factt / info to prove themselves. This time around, I don't say much about my fiance to my mother..... so she has very little material to work.


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## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

interesting topic. 

when i met my boyfriend, i wasn't exactly blown away by how handsome he is. I didn't think he was ugly, but i didn't feel that primal urge to bang him the first time i saw him. when i showed a picture of him to my friends (we are long distance), many of them responded like, "omg!! he is sooo hot!" and i thought it was weird, but whatever, maybe i'm just not as expressive as them? anyway, he knew very quickly that he wanted to be with me, and i only let myself fall in love with him until i knew that we are compatible and shared the same values and desires in life. to this day, i still remember the conversation we had where he shared with me how he wanted his life to be like, his priorities, his marriage, how he handles finances, etc., and i remember thinking that this guy was one of a kind, and i shouldn't let him go. 

he asked me to promise to marry him two weeks after we met. i replied, "i'm happy to see where this relationship goes, but i'm not ready for that kind of commitment yet" and he was okay with that answer, and let me have my time to figure it out. 

but now, our connection is so strong and we love each other so deeply. it's a bit frightening to me, to feel this strongly towards someone. i'm a few years short of thirty, and i've never felt this way about anyone before. 

anyway,
to answer the question about preferring to see face or body, i'd have to choose the face. that's where the majority of emotions/personality is expressed, and you can tell some about the body through the face, whether they are obese, rail thin, muscular, and the body can't give away facial features. 

to me, the face, where i can see the kindness in his eyes, how his smile lights up his face, that's more important to me than seeing his body.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

My wife was something like your boyfriend.
Early in our relationship we had the exact , same , talk and she told me outright that she was not interested in a relationship with me unless I had plans of us getting married.

The courtship journey was a very exciting one though.
Many feelings I had never experienced before, almost surreal.

And yes, a person's eyes tell you quite a lot.
I prefer the face.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

So I was thinking about something.

I am wondering what is this thing we call_chemistry_between two people?
IMO, chemistry seems to defy all the " normal rules" of relationships.
There can be instant chemistry between yourself and someone you've just met, you feel like it's deja vu.
What causes that connection?

Then there's sexual chemistry, sometimes you can feel it with a complete stranger just by the way they stare or smile.
Again, what's the real reason for that?
How do you explain this phenomenon?

Are certain types of personalities more likely to have instant chemistry?

Are there personal preconditions to be met in order for one to fully experience chemistry / sexual chemistry in a relationship?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Not on your list that I could see, I think it's literally a chemical attraction based on smell/pheromones. We have an unconscious ability to zoom in on a mate with whom we can make beautiful and* healthy* children together.

The Nose Knows How to Help Us Find and Keep a Mate

Sweaty T-Shirts and Human Mate Choice


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> So I was thinking about something.
> 
> I am wondering what is this thing we call_chemistry_between two people?
> IMO, chemistry seems to defy all the " normal rules" of relationships.
> ...



from pbs.org Sweaty T-Shirts and Human Mate Choice
Subtle chemical signals, or pheromones, have long been known to draw pairs together within the same species, and for a specific reason. *In mice, for example, experiments showed that pheromones acted as attractants between males and females who were genetically similar except that they differed in a certain type of immune system gene. That difference is actually a survival benefit: The combination of two individuals' different MHC (major histocompatibility locus) genes gives their offspring an advantage in beating back disease organisms. *

So the mice could smell a genetic difference. But could modern humans, who aren't known for a particularly good sense of smell, also make that distinction? 

In the first "sweaty T-shirt" experiment, a Swiss zoologist, Claus Wedekind, set up a test of women's sensitivity to male odors. He assembled volunteers, 49 women and 44 men selected for their variety of MHC gene types. He gave the men clean T-shirts to wear for two nights and then return to the scientists. 

In the laboratory, the researchers put each T-shirt in a box equipped with a smelling hole and invited the women volunteers to come in, one at a time, and sniff the boxes. Their task was to sample the odor of seven boxes and describe each odor as to intensity, pleasantness, and sexiness. 

The results were striking. Overall, *the women preferred the scents of T-shirts worn by men whose MHC genes were different from their own. *​


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Blonde said:


> Not on your list that I could see, I think it's literally a chemical attraction based on smell/pheromones. We have an unconscious ability to zoom in on a mate with whom we can make beautiful and* healthy* children together.
> 
> The Nose Knows How to Help Us Find and Keep a Mate
> 
> Sweaty T-Shirts and Human Mate Choice


I understand what you're saying about the actual chemical / hormonal reactions in the brains, I think Meson alluded to it in some of his earlier posts.
So I agree to an extent.
What I'm wondering about is , for eg: sexual chemistry.
Lets suppose you nose is right and you do select a mate unconsciously [ in part ] based on those smell/pheromones.

After the relationship begins to move forward the sexual encounters become more frequent, how does that sexual chemistry develop?
How come , previously you issues with your body's appearance , male or female, and with this person you feel so natural that you loosen all your inhibitions?

My wife and I didn't have sex before marriage , but I could feel intense sexual energy between us, and now so many after, that chemistry is still there.

lol, of course I love the smell of her skin and hair, but I'm thinking maybe there's more to it, because we're compatible in lots of other ways.
Back when we were courting , sometimes we wore " his & hers " T- shirts.
Today when I'm shopping for running shoes , 
[ my favourite brand is Nike Shox ] unconsciously, I tend to look for the same style for her .
When I'm purchasing fragrances for myself, unconsciously I ask if there's a female version.
It's not like if there isn't any I won't buy the one I like for myself, but it seems as something subconscious.
What I'm trying to figure out is what creates that " something " that manifests itself as " chemistry" in a romantic relationship.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> What I'm trying to figure out is what creates that " something " that manifests itself as " chemistry" in a romantic relationship.


IDK CM.

I totally identify with you and your wife's sexual chemistry. Similar history of waiting till marriage, been married 30 years and the sexual chemistry is better than ever. 

In our case though, the whole thing rests on that one leg and sheer momentum (shared children and history). H and I are on totally different wavelengths in many ways. We don't really "like" each other much and if I was choosing today, I would not choose him. But we are blessed with 8 extraordinarily beautiful and talented children who are going to change the world for the better.... so it was a match made in heaven.


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