# Is FWB the new norm?



## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

I haven't been single for 15 years and feel lost in this new dating landscape. I met a woman on Tinder about a month ago and we really hit it off. On our first date, it ended with heavy petting then her randomly telling me she didn't mind if I slept with other women. Second date, she came to my place and we hooked up but she didn't want to spend the night. Third date I went to her place and we had sex again but she didn't want me stay. While cuddling afterwards, she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other people. I'm going along for now but I'm not sure if I'm OK with this. Our next date is not for 3 weeks. I really see long term potential with her, but I'm not sure if she is playing games, trying to protect herself from getting hurt again, or really just looking for sex right now. We're both divorced.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Perhaps this is the norm for relationships established through that website?

Maybe you need to avoid it if you want a more traditional style of romance?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Honestly I'm sure what to try next. Although Tinder has been tedious and slow to produce results, it's doesn't really take much time as I use it whenever I'm idle like eating lunch or some other passive activity. I'm really busy and don't have a lot of free time. I have a successful career, make good money, and need to because I pay alimony and child support. I also have my kids one week and two weekends an month. I dabbled with Match.com and ******* and they seem to require 10x the effort. I simply don't have time to waste doing "single" things like I could 10-15 years ago. I have maybe a few hours on weeknights each week and one or two weekend days free each month...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Honestly I'm sure what to try next. Although Tinder has been tedious and slow to produce results, it's doesn't really take much time as I use it whenever I'm idle like eating lunch or some other passive activity. I'm really busy and don't have a lot of free time. I have a successful career, make good money, and need to because I pay alimony and child support. I also have my kids one week and two weekends an month. I dabbled with Match.com and ******* and they seem to require 10x the effort. I simply don't have time to waste doing "single" things like I could 10-15 years ago. I have maybe a few hours on weeknights each week and one or two weekend days free each month...


If they require 10x the effort that might be because the results are 10x better?

However perhaps a FWB relationship is what fits in with your lifestyle? Only you can know this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

So a few things about her so that I don't keep getting the generic "Tinder is a hookup site" advice because I think she is much more complicated than that. She divorced 2 years ago and then dated someone else for at least a year. So she hasn't been single all that long. She's very successful and also super busy like me. She's actually kinda famous and has a lengthy Wikipedia page and if you Google her name, her image appears all over the Internet. It kinda freaked me out actually because I can find out way too much about her if I go down that rabbit hole. She has lots of fans and I think one of the things she likes about me is that I'm completely outside of her social circle and fan base. But I also sense it's one of the reasons she keeps me at a distance...


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

No, this isn't anything new. In the late 90's I moved to North Carolina, I got a job at the Revlon factory down there. I worked with a guy that had a FWB relationship with a woman back then. I was amazed! LOL Coming from the back woods of West Virginia that was the first time I had heard of such a thing. Anyway, he ended up getting serious about the relationship and she dumped him because she didn't want to get serious.

We covered for him till he recovered and then I quit and moved to a better job. I hope he found someone to commit. I never considered the online dating sites seriously. Although my cousin did meet her now husband through one. So.... who knows?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Honestly I'm sure what to try next. Although Tinder has been tedious and slow to produce results, it's doesn't really take much time as I use it whenever I'm idle like eating lunch or some other passive activity. I'm really busy and don't have a lot of free time. I have a successful career, make good money, and need to because I pay alimony and child support. I also have my kids one week and two weekends an month. I dabbled with Match.com and ******* and they seem to require 10x the effort. *I simply don't have time to waste doing "single" things like I could 10-15 years ago.* I have maybe a few hours on weeknights each week and one or two weekend days free each month...


Honestly, if you're too busy for online dating, then you may really need to think about how much time you can realistically devote to a committed relationship. That may be particularly true if you're drawn to similarly busy and successful women who are, like you, unlikely to have much time to "waste doing 'single' things".

Really think about what you want from the dating experience. Do you really want a committed relationship? Are you willing to devote the time and energy required to develop a serious relationship? Can you make compromises to accommodate her schedule if it's as busy as yours, or do you need her to mold herself around the time you can spare? Or would a FWB for dates and low-maintenance sex a few times a month better fit the reality of your lifestyle? Once you can really understand and clearly articulate the relationship type you're actually interested in, it becomes much easier to find that relationship. Be honest with yourself and with the women you see.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

TNK,

I would seriously wonder why her marriage ended.

Was the person she dated the reason her marriage ended?

Sounds alot like a relationship you might have with a prostitute, except the orgasms are real.

Tamat


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> So a few things about her so that I don't keep getting the generic "Tinder is a hookup site" advice because I think she is much more complicated than that. She divorced 2 years ago and then dated someone else for at least a year. So she hasn't been single all that long. She's very successful and also super busy like me. She's actually kinda famous and has a lengthy Wikipedia page and if you Google her name, her image appears all over the Internet. It kinda freaked me out actually because I can find out way too much about her if I go down that rabbit hole. She has lots of fans and I think one of the things she likes about me is that I'm completely outside of her social circle and fan base. But I also sense it's one of the reasons she keeps me at a distance...


Are you banging JK Rowling? >

So would you say you aren't quite comfortable with FWB, and if sex was involved would prefer it within the context of a relationship? Honestly, my biggest concern with the setup you have with JK is the increased risk of an STD.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

although totally anecdotal, i had run into quite a few women like this while dating.

women today (sound like an old dude?) are often very independent and don't need a permanent man in their life.
many also enjoy the fruits of sexual freedom in today's world.

it took me meeting many women to find my wife that is very relationship oriented.
i would say the vast majority of women i met wanted to date but were also leery of being tied down to a relationship.

kind of like dudes were some time ago, now women can be like that in today's world, without scorn and total acceptance.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I haven't been single for 15 years and feel lost in this new dating landscape. I met a woman on Tinder about a month ago and we really hit it off. On our first date, it ended with heavy petting then her randomly telling me she didn't mind if I slept with other women. Second date, she came to my place and we hooked up but she didn't want to spend the night. Third date I went to her place and we had sex again but she didn't want me stay. While cuddling afterwards, she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other people. I'm going along for now but I'm not sure if I'm OK with this. Our next date is not for 3 weeks. I really see long term potential with her, but I'm not sure if she is playing games, trying to protect herself from getting hurt again, or really just looking for sex right now. We're both divorced.



There is a reason people can enjoy sex without a commitment. It is because there is *NO FEAR* of loosing the other person that allows both to be completely open about who they are. She may be purposely sabotaging things by telling you that you can sleep with other women. This way she knows the relationship is doomed to fail and she can just enjoy it while it lasts. 

Imagine your neighbor were to tell you his car is going to the junk yard tomorrow. In the meantime it still runs and invites you to just go wild with it. Imagine driving this car. Odds are you would not hold back and have a ton of fun because you would have no fear of hurting the car as tomorrow you plan to throw it away anyway. Now imagine this were a car that you paid a lot of money for and it was in mint condition. Odds are you would be very careful with it and try not to do anything to get a scratch on it. Driving it would feel like a responsibility and it may not be too much fun. 

So you are NOT in a FWB relationship. You are being used by someone that feels a need to live life self destructively without any safety measures. 

Sad things is that in great marriages both let go and enjoy each other the same way. You can't have a great marriage if you live in fear of loosing the other person. You have to be confident enough to be yourself. 

In my opinion, since you are sexually active with this woman, just be yourself and don't hold back. Be confident and perhaps you will start to grow on each other.

Badsanta


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TAMAT said:


> TNK,
> 
> I would seriously wonder why her marriage ended.
> 
> ...


What grounds do you have to question the reason that her marriage ended?

Just because a woman enjoys sex, and enjoys sex with OP, but doesn't want an exclusive relationship doesn't make her a prostitute. It makes her a perfectly normal human being who isn't ready for an exclusive relationship.

A prostitute is someone who simply has sex for money.

If OP only wants an exclusive relationship then he needs to tell her so and move on.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I met a woman on Tinder about a month ago and we really hit it off. On our first date, it ended with heavy petting then her randomly telling me she didn't mind if I slept with other women. Second date, she came to my place and we hooked up but she didn't want to spend the night. Third date I went to her place and we had sex again but she didn't want me stay. While cuddling afterwards, she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other people. I'm going along for now but I'm not sure if I'm OK with this. Our next date is not for 3 weeks. I really see long term potential with her, but I'm not sure if she is playing games, trying to protect herself from getting hurt again, or really just looking for sex right now. We're both divorced.


How is she playing games? She has told you straight out what she wants. If you are not OK with this then tell her and end it.

If she wants a casual relationship with sex then that is her choice.

If you are looking for long term then you need to say so otherwise you are the one that is playing games.



TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Honestly I'm sure what to try next. Although Tinder has been tedious and slow to produce results, it's doesn't really take much time as I use it whenever I'm idle like eating lunch or some other passive activity. I'm really busy and don't have a lot of free time. I have a successful career, make good money, and need to because I pay alimony and child support. I also have my kids one week and two weekends an month. I dabbled with Match.com and ******* and they seem to require 10x the effort. *I simply don't have time to waste doing "single" things* like I could 10-15 years ago. I have maybe a few hours on weeknights each week and one or two weekend days free each month...


If you haven't the time to spend with someone and don't want to even put in the effort to fill out and OKC profile it sounds like you made an ideal match here on Tinder.

If you are expecting to find an ideal long term partner without putting in any effort then you may need to review your expectations.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Honestly I'm sure what to try next. Although Tinder has been tedious and slow to produce results, it's doesn't really take much time as I use it whenever I'm idle like eating lunch or some other passive activity. I'm really busy and don't have a lot of free time. I have a successful career, make good money, and need to because I pay alimony and child support. I also have my kids one week and two weekends an month. I dabbled with Match.com and ******* and they seem to require 10x the effort.* I simply don't have time to waste doing "single" things like I could 10-15 years ago. I have maybe a few hours on weeknights each week and one or two weekend days free each month...*


This sounds like you are only interested in FWB, then, and not in developing a long term relationship with someone who will be a part of your life. 

If you see doing "single things" as a waste of time, how will you develop any relationship? Those single things are called dates, spending quality time together so that you get to know each other and determine if you enjoy each others' company and are compatible. If you don't want to date, then FWB sounds about right for you, doesn't it?


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

My uneducated guess is that FWB is OK as long as you two are exclusive. She doesn't want that. Time to decide if this curb ball is doable or not.

You really like her, you see LTR in her, but yet you don't have the time?

Your description of LTR is flawed. LTR take time and work. You need quality time together that you don't have. She may be ahead of you in this being single again game. She is very busy, she has no time to commit to LTR. She is offering the option that she can give you.

No exclusivity clause here, FWB is not a menu you get to pick and choose what you want and don't want. It's an agreement between two people. You either accept the agreement or you don't .

Stop thinking she is good for LTR, she has already told you she is not interested. NO amount of sex is going to convince her of something different. Women are not wired that way!

If she says FWB and no exclusivity, believe her!


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Wonky Ninja,

You wrote,<B> What grounds do you have to question the reason that her marriage ended? </B>

Simply the timing he wrote that she got divorced and then dated some guy for a year, makes it sound as if she went right from her marriage to dating. 

And why does that matter.... it matters because who wants to invest emotionally in a relationship where cheating is OK. I frankly doubt that if he married this woman her views about the acceptability of cheating would change. 

Tamat


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

I just want to stress to make sure you use protection, as she is probably seeing other people.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Value her transparency and willingness to have sex. Good traits unless you only thrive in a ltr.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk


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## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

Yes, she's playing games.
You are just one of a few guys that she is sleeping with, possibly sleeping around on a boyfriend or husband.

If it's all that important to you, you might be better off moving on, or taking-up on her offer to date "sleep with" other women.

Welcome to tinder!

Giggity Giggity


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

TAMAT said:


> TNK,
> 
> I would seriously wonder why her marriage ended.
> 
> ...


Actually we both shared about our marriage and divorce. I read her Wikipedia page and everything is exactly as she described - and her personal life is slightly publicized. So I think you are off base.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

norajane said:


> This sounds like you are only interested in FWB, then, and not in developing a long term relationship with someone who will be a part of your life.
> 
> If you see doing "single things" as a waste of time, how will you develop any relationship? Those single things are called dates, spending quality time together so that you get to know each other and determine if you enjoy each others' company and are compatible. If you don't want to date, then FWB sounds about right for you, doesn't it?


Whoa!!! That's not what I said. I work 60+ hours a week when my kids aren't around and I take off those 9 days/month I have them. If I'm interested in someone romantically, I always make time for them. I'd certainly be able to see someone I'm dating 2-3 times/week once they meet my kids. Going out all the time, building up my "single" resume though is just not practical with kids...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

If you are not comfortable with it, then don't do it. Pretty simple. Just because you are a man doesn't mean that you HAVE to go along with it. Honestly it doesn't sound like this is something you want to do.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Whoa!!! That's not what I said. I work 60+ hours a week when my kids aren't around and I take off those 9 days/month I have them. If I'm interested in someone romantically, I always make time for them. I'd certainly be able to see someone I'm dating 2-3 times/week once they meet my kids. Going out all the time, building up my "single" resume though is just not practical with kids...


I don't know how else to interpret: "I don't want to waste time doing "single" things." If you only have one or two weekend days per month, and only a few hours per week available to go on dates, you aren't going to develop much of a relationship with anyone. 

How are you going to meet someone you are interested in romantically if you don't "waste" time meeting people and spending time with them?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I haven't been single for 15 years and feel lost in this new dating landscape. I met a woman on Tinder about a month ago and we really hit it off. On our first date, it ended with heavy petting then her randomly telling me she didn't mind if I slept with other women. Second date, she came to my place and we hooked up but she didn't want to spend the night. Third date I went to her place and we had sex again but she didn't want me stay. While cuddling afterwards, she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other people. I'm going along for now but I'm not sure if I'm OK with this. Our next date is not for 3 weeks. I really see long term potential with her, but I'm not sure if she is playing games, trying to protect herself from getting hurt again, or really just looking for sex right now. We're both divorced.


You sure there is no one else. Sounds like she is creeping.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> She divorced 2 years ago *and then* dated someone else for at least a year. So she hasn't been single all that long.





TAMAT said:


> Wonky Ninja,
> 
> You wrote,<B> What grounds do you have to question the reason that her marriage ended? </B>
> 
> Simply the timing he wrote that she got divorced and then dated some guy for a year, makes it sound as if she went right from her marriage to dating.


"and then" can be anything from the following day to a couple of months.

So what if she did go right from marriage to dating? 

I certainly did. My marriage had been over as a relationship for years when I finally divorced.



TAMAT said:


> And why does that matter.... it matters because who wants to invest emotionally in a relationship where cheating is OK. I frankly doubt that if he married this woman her views about the acceptability of cheating would change.
> 
> Tamat


There is no basis whatsoever to assume that she was cheating on her H at the time of the divorce, other than the usual TAM BS need to label everyone a cheater. 

You not only make the assumption that she was cheating but then move on to state a) that she thinks cheating is OK and b) that her views on it's acceptability wouldn't change. You have no idea of her name let alone her personal thoughts on issues.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

foolscotton3 said:


> Yes, she's playing games.
> You are just one of a few guys that she is sleeping with, possibly sleeping around on a boyfriend or husband.
> 
> If it's all that important to you, you might be better off moving on, or taking-up on her offer to date "sleep with" other women.
> ...


Definitely not sleeping around with a husband or boyfriend. I first signed up on Tinder and used it for about a week as a knee jerk reaction after a breakup from a 2 year relationship. I met her then in February and knew she liked me. I only used Tinder for a few days, then ended up trying to reconcile with my ex-GF but that failed for good by April. Meanwhile, the new girl texted me that she started dating someone else. I told her I wanted to stay friends and to keep in touch - obviously we were just keeping the door ajar. In May, she came to one of my gigs (I'm a musician). She stayed all night and we talked for hours after the gig. Even though she was in a relationship with someone else, I knew the sparks were flying. Though we had minimal contact, I was 100% convinced I was going to sleep with her at some point the future. When you know, you know...

So sure enough, beginning of June she texts me out of the blue to tell me she's single again. A couple days later we're on our first official date and she makes it very clear she wants to sleep with me. Next date, about 2 weeks later, she comes over to my place, I cook dinner, and we have sex. The next date was last week and the same exact thing except at her place. That is when she tells me she doesn't want to be in a relationship. But then I wonder, how did she so quickly enter and exit a relationship that lasted only 3 months (March-June) just before me? Is it because I have kids? She definitely likes kids. She also said she is frustrated living in LA and would probably move away in a year - it's too expensive and she hates all the fake people. Could that be it? I know she likes me ALOT. A couple random tidbits, she texted me "You feel like an old friend - I assume because we've been to war" (she's talking about being divorced) and "The past is gone and the future doesn't exist so lately I've been trying to live in the present". A couple weeks ago I had to go the Vegas for business so I had to postpone our date. She offered to drive out there to spend one night together. I was like "WTF? That's too far!" That's like 8 hours of driving just for sex. She said she didn't mind. Anyway, that's some more insight as to why I'm confused about if this is just casual sex or she's playing games or trying to protect herself from more hurt...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

norajane said:


> I don't know how else to interpret: "I don't want to waste time doing "single" things." If you only have one or two weekend days per month, and only a few hours per week available to go on dates, you aren't going to develop much of a relationship with anyone.
> 
> How are you going to meet someone you are interested in romantically if you don't "waste" time meeting people and spending time with them?


Do you have kids? When I was single I used to play beach volleyball, hike, and hang out at happy hours all basically to have a "passive" good time while looking to meet women. It works but takes time. You buildup a network of friends, some guys some girls, and you meet attractive single people. I've been there done that but there is just no way I'm going to do that now. I have too many responsibilities now...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> You sure there is no one else. Sounds like she is creeping.


What is creeping?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> What is creeping?


Using you to cheat. But I am cynical.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

sokillme said:


> Using you to cheat. But I am cynical.


I assumed it meant cyber-stalking someone but that's def not the case. I think it's possible, but rather unlikely that she is using me for cheating. I've been to her house and in her bedroom. She definitely does not live with another guy. So the only possible scenario is that she is hooking up with multiple guys on Tinder between seeing me. If so, she was up front about it and I've got no reason to be mad.

Thinking it through, my biggest issue is that I just want to see her more often than once or twice a month. I don't care if she has other sexual partners because we aren't exclusive. The problem is my libido is like a water tap. I can go without sex for months, but once I turn it on, I want to have sex all the time or at least female companionship.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I assumed it meant cyber-stalking someone but that's def not the case. I think it's possible, but rather unlikely that she is using me for cheating. I've been to her house and in her bedroom. She definitely does not live with another guy. So the only possible scenario is that she is hooking up with multiple guys on Tinder between seeing me. If so, she was up front about it and I've got no reason to be mad.
> 
> Thinking it through, my biggest issue is that I just want to see her more often than once or twice a month. I don't care if she has other sexual partners because we aren't exclusive. The problem is my libido is like a water tap. I can go without sex for months, but once I turn it on, I want to have sex all the time or at least female companionship.


Maybe she has a long term boyfriend.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> . Anyway, that's some more insight as to why I'm confused about if this is just casual sex or she's playing games or trying to protect herself from more hurt...


Why she is doing this is not relevant. She has set the ground rules she wants. You can be happy with those or you can leave the relationship.

Recently I was discussing marriage and divorce with several women at work. Flight crew talk about all kinds of things real quick. Anyhow, one has been divorced for 15+ years and said she has never had any interest in getting remarried. Parenting was her #1 priority, but when she had spare time she engaged in plenty of fun with plenty of men. Another woman is married but having the typical kinds of problems. Teen kids, husband who sits on the couch or is out playing golf, and she feels like his mom not desired like a wife. As she seriously contemplates divorce she has no interest in serious long term relationships with men. She likes the idea of casual play things for fun on the side.

I think the FWB is a very real social phenomenon which is not going away.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

I think you're way overthinking and maybe want her to be something she's not.


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## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

I don't think that FWB is the new norm. It just isn't uncommon anymore. People get tired of hooking up with randos online, so they cycle a few they like.

Like hooking up with someone for a month or two and moving on, then hooking back up a few times and rinse and repeat.

If your OK with being tossed aside and ignored when she finds someone more interesting for a moment, then hooking back up with her when he tosses her aside, go for it.

Just don't get your feels from this one, enjoy her for the fvck she gives.

Giggity Giggity


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

foolscotton3 said:


> If your OK with being tossed aside and ignored when she finds someone more interesting for a moment, then hooking back up with her when he tosses her aside, go for it.
> 
> Just don't get your feels from this one, enjoy her for the fvck she gives.
> 
> Giggity Giggity


Absolute gold right there.

Also consider you could be kissing a face that's just had some other dudes d1ck in it. If you like giving oral, I'll leave the worst to your imagination.

Call me traditional but if I'm sticking parts of me in to parts of someone else, I need to know it's just me who's doing it.

Multiple FWB's just sounds lost and desperate to me. Do these people even kiss?


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

TAM2013 said:


> Absolute gold right there.
> 
> Also consider you could be kissing a face that's just had some other dudes d1ck in it. If you like giving oral, I'll leave the worst to your imagination.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your cynical worthless advice.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'll restate the advice I gave you on your other thread.
> 
> Use condoms. Durable ones. Make sure they haven't reached their expiration date.
> 
> ...


We talked about how many past sexual partners we've had a few weeks ago. I think she told me 5 and I have no reason to doubt her. She's been totally candid about everything else. She was married most of her adult life. She basically said she wants to be single because she's tried committed relationships for a long time and it hasn't worked for her. What exactly sounds like "train wreck"? That she knows what she wants and isn't afraid to be honest? It seems everyone here assumes the worst...


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> We talked about how many past sexual partners we've had a few weeks ago. I think she told me 5 and I have no reason to doubt her. She's been totally candid about everything else. She was married most of her adult life. She basically said she *wants to be single because she's tried committed relationships for a long time and it hasn't worked for her*. What exactly sounds like "train wreck"? That she knows what she wants and isn't afraid to be honest? It seems everyone here assumes the worst...


In my opinion that is probably a really good attitude to take. 

If you are out looking for a long term relationship you are more likely to take "good enough". If you are not looking for that then you will only change your viewpoint when someone really special comes along, not the someone you can live with but the someone you can't live without.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I haven't been single for 15 years and feel lost in this new dating landscape. I met a woman on Tinder about a month ago and we really hit it off. On our first date, it ended with heavy petting then her randomly telling me she didn't mind if I slept with other women. Second date, she came to my place and we hooked up but she didn't want to spend the night. Third date I went to her place and we had sex again but she didn't want me stay. While cuddling afterwards, she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other people. I'm going along for now but I'm not sure if I'm OK with this. Our next date is not for 3 weeks. I really see long term potential with her, but I'm not sure if she is playing games, trying to protect herself from getting hurt again, or really just looking for sex right now. We're both divorced.


Go with the flow...later, say in a month or two...ask her about her needs and intentions.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> She has sex on the second date; and by the third date is saying it's okay if we have sex with other people too.


She said the same thing BEFORE we had sex. And though it was only our second date we met over 4 months prior. So if you're suggesting she is too promiscuous, I don't agree.



notmyrealname4 said:


> She's recently divorced (2 years ago) had a one year relationship since; and is now having sex with you; and probably many others.


It's possible she is having sex with others but I doubt it's many and there is no evidence that she is.



notmyrealname4 said:


> She's kind of famous and wants to keep you at arms length.


A couple of our dates have been right after a public appearance to promote her work. She doesn't talk about them much it because she hates doing them. Afterwards, she usually texts me "I don't mind coming to your side or town" and the offer to drive out to Vegas was from left field.



notmyrealname4 said:


> She came to one of your gigs (months ago) and stayed with you all night talking; despite the fact she was in a relationship with someone else at that time. How did he feel about her being out all night? Did it matter? Was he more of a FWB too?


They didn't live together so I'm sure he had no idea. They had only been dating a month so it's hardly cheating. We did nothing except talk and get to know each other better.



notmyrealname4 said:


> She wants to keep you at arm's length; but have sex with you; but also see other people; but is also willing to drive across the desert for 8 hours to have sex with you at some future date.
> 
> It sounds up-in-the-air to me. But what do I know, I'm an old stick.
> 
> Hope it works out for the best.


Yup. That's the part that has me confused for sure.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

She is single, loving it...riding the bulls, bears, tigers, but not the Waves. 

She does not want the ups and downs of She-Sickness.



More power to her.



Not marriage material.....as yet....maybe never.

I would not risk marrying her....... Maybe years down the road if she settles down.

Keep her as a FWB lady bug?.....Yeppir....as long as you do not fall into her web...and be consumed by jealousy, out-security {you will never feel "in" with her}. 

She broke her chains, never to return. IMO........butsky, your *onion is yours to live with.........*opinion

Life is short and she is "On to that fact".

Be a cool guy, a fun guy, not controlling and she will make honey in your hive for a long time.



Side thought:

She may be testing you. She keeps bringing up the fact that both of you are "free" to date others. This may be a ploy to find out if you are serious or a "player". Maybe she does not want to be used and burned...again.

This is pushing the envelope of possibilities. It is pure speculation from my psychic capacitive-tuner. Nothing you have said would lead one to conclude this scenario.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> "The past is gone and the future doesn't exist so lately I've been trying to live in the present".


Okay Master Oogway... dude she gave you a line from Kung Fu Panda!

She's fvcking other guys, that's why she doesn't want to be exclusive. You're just another passenger on her c0ck carousal. 

If you're not okay with that then bail. She's clearly not shy so if she was actually into you, she would ask for exclusivity.

That fact that you see long term prospect in a person like this makes me question whether YOU are ready to date.

Play it cool and take the free sex if you want it, otherwise move on. Which you should do before you catch feelings.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Okay Master Oogway... dude she gave you a line from Kung Fu Panda!
> 
> She's fvcking other guys, that's why she doesn't want to be exclusive. You're just another passenger on her c0ck carousal.
> 
> ...


Geez so much judgment! She didn't give me a line. If anything I used one on her... It was after my gig while she was still dating the other guy. I knew she was into me and used some not so subtle innuendo. In context, the text exchange was:

HER: You feel like an old friend - I assume because we've both been to war 
ME: I know what you mean. Don't try to read into this too much, but I get this feeling we're going to know each other a long time...
HER: Haha. I won't! I used to have a friend who always said "The past is gone and the future doesn't exist." I try to live in the present and lately I've been pretty successful.

What's your evidence that she's a c0ck carousel? Your own experiences with women who have cheated on you? Why is she CLEARLY not shy???

And I'm "not ready to date" because I'm not angry and bitter like you? Just because a woman knows what she wants and doesn't care what other people think doesn't automatically make her a $lut. Perhaps your poor judge of female character is how you ended up with a cheating spouse...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I hope all my friends have benefits... especially health and dental. :grin2:


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Geez so much judgment! She didn't give me a line. If anything I used one on her... It was after my gig while she was still dating the other guy. I knew she was into me and used some not so subtle innuendo. In context, the text exchange was:
> 
> HER: You feel like an old friend - I assume because we've both been to war
> ME: I know what you mean. Don't try to read into this too much, but I get this feeling we're going to know each other a long time...
> ...


What judgment? Who cares if she's a slvt? That's where she's at this point in her life. There's nothing wrong with it. Could easily be a man putting notches on his belt. I'd tell a woman the same thing. 

I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape. She doesn't want to be exclusive because she's boning other men. Stop being a fool. You've been out of the game a while. Welcome to the 21st century. She's not going to tell you that, you need to wake up and read between the lines dude.

Obviously you can't handle a Ftw situation so fine some wife material.... Chicks dig musicians and it doesnt sound like you'd have an issue replacing her so why you getting all hung up on a disaster waiting to happen? That tells me you're a codependent not ready to date.


----------



## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> What judgment? Who cares if she's a slvt? That's where she's at this point in her life. There's nothing wrong with it. Could easily be a man putting notches on his belt. I'd tell a woman the same thing.
> 
> I don't know why you're getting all bent out of shape. She doesn't want to be exclusive because she's boning other men. Stop being a fool. You've been out of the game a while. Welcome to the 21st century. She's not going to tell you that, you need to wake up and read between the lines dude.
> 
> Obviously you can't handle a Ftw situation so fine some wife material.... Chicks dig musicians and it doesnt sound like you'd have an issue replacing her so why you getting all hung up on a disaster waiting to happen? That tells me you're a codependent not ready to date.


I'm pretty certain you'd get slapped by just about any woman if you called her a slvt or a c0ck carousel to her face. So though you my think it adds some edginess to your post, you just come off as sounding like a judgmental and sexist a-hole. It's offensive to me because she is a real person that I'm having sexual relations with.

As for me supposedly getting bent out of shape over her, I'm not. I'm annoyed by people like you who making sweeping assumptions without really reading what people wrote. I'm not pining over this woman. I like her and am just trying to surmise if she really just wants casual sex or is saying these things as a test or as a protection mechanism. It really wouldn't bother me all that much if she is sleeping with someone else so long as we continue having sex. However I can't imagine a situation like that going on indefinitely. I'm pretty certain she's still swiping on Tinder. I am too. She may even be seeing another guy and possibly sleeping with him. But I know her well enough now that she certainly isn't banging multiple guys at once like you are asserting. As you said, I'm a musician and wouldn't have a problem replacing her. I've been around the block a few times. She's much smarter and more sophisticated than a typical groupie so her words and actions are little trickier to figure out.


----------



## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> She may be testing you. She keeps bringing up the fact that both of you are "free" to date others. This may be a ploy to find out if you are serious or a "player". Maybe she does not want to be used and burned...again.


I've noticed a pattern with the girls that are attracted to me. They usually have dated musicians before and after me. My last GF constantly accused me of being a "player" in a joking way the first 6 months we dated. As the relationship got more serious, that became an insane jealousy with constant accusations of cheating (which I never did). I work in bars all the time and carousing with women (and men) has become second nature for me. So I think these women are inherently attracted to but also distrustful of musicians. Anyway, this new girl was married to a director, then dated a DJ. They were also both musicians. It's an obvious pattern...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I hope all my friends have benefits... especially health and dental. :grin2:


Not dental. Oral.


----------



## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

TAM2013 said:


> Absolute gold right there.
> 
> Also *consider you could be kissing a face that's just had some other dudes d1ck in it*. If you like giving oral, I'll leave the worst to your imagination.
> 
> Call me traditional but if I'm sticking parts of me in to parts of someone else, I need to know it's just me who's doing it.


That comment was totally uncalled for, and another example of misogynistic slvt shaming just because she doesn't fit your ideal of a woman who wants to be exclusive from the 1st date. 

You seem to assume that because she doesn't want to be exclusive she is jumping from one bed to another during the same day. 

Every single parent out there has kissed their children with the same mouth that they engage in sex with their partner with. Most of us have discovered this thing called "washing". Try looking it up on Google.


----------



## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

WonkyNinja,

Exclusivity from the first date is called common decency as is not 'dating' someone new when you're already screwing someone else. If I'm slvt shaming, you are 'moral code' shaming.

If you're so clued up on cleanliness, you'll know a woman can discharge semen 2-3 days after having sex. Douches, dental dams for oral and regular STD screening are lost and desperate, verging on comical.

While the OP's womans honesty in her intentions are refreshing, I'd decline the arrangement and don't think it's the norm for any man who values himself and the woman involved.

Agreed kids should only run the risk of being subjected to familiar gunk, by the way.


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

TAM2013 said:


> Exclusivity from the first date is called common decency as is not 'dating' someone new when you're already screwing someone else.


Well I'm not sure that is a common practice these days. I am old enough (55) to remember the days when there was such a code. Once one went on the 2nd date exclusivity was implied unless otherwise stated. And, one did not continue to date beyond that point if one did not desire exclusivity. If it wasn't working out, you broke it off. And if all you were interested in was casual friendship or fwb you made that a clear arrangement without "dating" in the traditional sense.

But everything I hear, today it is the opposite. Exclusivity does not exist unless very specifically agreed to. Even after dating for a few months and being in what seems like a romantic and sexual relationship, there is no social code requiring exclusivity unless it has been agreed upon by both.

Admittedly I find this a curious new aspect to my new single status which I will have to learn how to navigate.



TAM2013 said:


> If I'm slvt shaming, you are 'moral code' shaming.


Absolutely. Moral Code shaming is rampant these days.


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> They didn't live together so I*'m sure he had no idea. They had only been dating a month so it's hardly cheating.* We did nothing except talk and get to know each other better.


Really ? Would have loved to hear that guys perspective on that.


----------



## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I'm pretty certain you'd get slapped by just about any woman if you called her a slvt or a c0ck carousel to her face. So though you my think it adds some edginess to your post, you just come off as sounding like a judgmental and sexist a-hole. It's offensive to me because she is a real person that I'm having sexual relations with.
> 
> As for me supposedly getting bent out of shape over her, I'm not. I'm annoyed by people like you who making sweeping assumptions without really reading what people wrote. I'm not pining over this woman. *I like her and am just trying to surmise if she really just wants casual sex or is saying these things as a test or as a protection mechanism.* It really wouldn't bother me all that much if she is sleeping with someone else so long as we continue having sex. However I can't imagine a situation like that going on indefinitely. I'm pretty certain she's still swiping on Tinder. I am too. She may even be seeing another guy and possibly sleeping with him. But I know her well enough now that she certainly isn't banging multiple guys at once like you are asserting. As you said, I'm a musician and wouldn't have a problem replacing her. I've been around the block a few times. *She's much smarter and more sophisticated than a typical groupie so her words and actions are little trickier to figure out*.



She directly told you this, but you obviously like her enough that you simply don't want it to be true, so you are trying to come up with reasons for her actions.


If she is smart and sophisticated she should be able to express herself directly to you with what she wants with no guesswork needed. Which in fact she did, but you don't seem to want to except that.


----------



## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

Thor said:


> But everything I hear, today it is the opposite. Exclusivity does not exist unless very specifically agreed to. Even after dating for a few months and being in what seems like a romantic and sexual relationship, there is no social code requiring exclusivity unless it has been agreed upon by both.
> 
> Admittedly I find this a curious new aspect to my new single status which I will have to learn how to navigate.


Nowadays, casual dating is a game.

Giggity Giggity


----------



## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

barbados2 said:


> Really ? Would have loved to hear that guys perspective on that.


She was on my e-mail list and came to a gig. I came over to say hi and we talked between every set. No physical contact except a hug goodbye at the end of the evening. How is that cheating?


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

barbados2 said:


> She directly told you this, but you obviously like her enough that you simply don't want it to be true, so you are trying to come up with reasons for her actions.
> 
> 
> If she is smart and sophisticated she should be able to express herself directly to you with what she wants with no guesswork needed. Which in fact she did, but you don't seem to want to except that.


Honestly I'm fine with casual sex or a relationship. It would be nice to understand her true intentions though because I prefer monogamy. If she really just wants casual sex, then I won't allow myself to get too involved and I'll keep dating other girls. But sorry, offering to drive 8 hours to see me just doesn't align with everything else she's saying...


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## foolscotton3 (Nov 13, 2014)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Honestly I'm fine with casual sex or a relationship. It would be nice to understand her true intentions though because I prefer monogamy. If she really just wants casual sex, then I won't allow myself to get too involved and I'll keep dating other girls. But sorry, offering to drive 8 hours to see me just doesn't align with everything else she's saying...


Who knows, maybe some other guy let her down or she felt hurt and needed validation. So she got in the car and drove to a guy that she knew would validate her.

Giggity Giggity


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

So we had a pretty lengthy text exchange tonight. She reached out to me to express her sadness over all the shootings the past few days. Eventually we moved to more light-hearted subjects. She said she wanted to see me perform again. I said I was only touring this month and no locals shows but I could serenade her some time. She said "I would love that." We ended the text exchange with emoji kisses. So clearly I'm not just a lay. The saga continues...


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Oh dear. Start here.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Thor said:


> Well I'm not sure that is a common practice these days. I am old enough (55) to remember the days when there was such a code. Once one went on the 2nd date exclusivity was implied unless otherwise stated. And, one did not continue to date beyond that point if one did not desire exclusivity.


There are definitely still girls like that still out there. They are called "wife material." 

You just have to go through a lot more duds to find her than you used too.

Casual sex has become "empowerment" for women. Sounds like the men making out on that deal.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I like her and am just trying to surmise if she really just wants casual sex or is saying these things as a test or as a protection mechanism. It really wouldn't bother me all that much if she is sleeping with someone else so long as we continue having sex. However I can't imagine a situation like that going on indefinitely. I'm pretty certain she's still swiping on Tinder. I am too. She may even be seeing another guy and possibly sleeping with him. But I know her well enough now that she certainly isn't banging multiple guys at once like you are asserting.


Multiple guys or one other guy who cares??? Anyone other than you is one too many for her to be sleeping with. 

She wants casual sex with someone other than you. Happy? There is no other reason not to say, "Hey I like you, lets just keep the sex between us". That's ALL exclusivity is. Nothing more. If she can't even do that then she is NOT relationship material at this point in her life. So your choices are:

1) Keep getting laid occasionally until you find an actual girlfriend (not her).

2) Break it off because you're tired of sharing her with some other dude(s).


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Lol, some of the posts on this thread are hilarious.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

TAM2013 said:


> If I'm slvt shaming, you are 'moral code' shaming.


So what exactly are you doing by calling a woman a slvt because she refuses to conform to your anachronistic and misogynistic "Stepford Wife" ideal??? Kettle meet pot...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

TAM2013 said:


> Oh dear. Start here.


Angry white male blog. Joy...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> There are definitely still girls like that still out there. They are called "wife material."
> 
> You just have to go through a lot more duds to find her than you used too.
> 
> Casual sex has become "empowerment" for women. Sounds like the men making out on that deal.


So correspondingly, any man who has engaged in casual sex is a dud and not "husband material"?


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

soccermom2three said:


> Lol, some of the posts on this thread are hilarious.


Yes. It's sort of been hijacked by a debate as to whether women who enjoy casual sex are slvts...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I would say that she just isn't that into you. Is it because she is protecting herself or is it because she's still looking for someone who ticks all her boxes? Not enough information here to tell. It may be a combination of both. 

But since she is making it clear that this isn't exclusive and she can only find time for you once a month or so, I wouldn't expect it to become any more than FWB. It's possible she changes her mind, but I wouldn't bank too much on it. Or put too much stock in a long drive or some friendly text.

Groupies for the most part are just happy to throw themselves at their idols. Or hang around to see and be seen. Us more complicated women, LOL, expect a lot more from those we choose to become serious with.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I would say that she just isn't that into you. Is it because she is protecting herself or is it because she's still looking for someone who ticks all her boxes? Not enough information here to tell. It may be a combination of both.
> 
> But since she is making it clear that this isn't exclusive and she can only find time for you once a month or so, I wouldn't expect it to become any more than FWB. It's possible she changes her mind, but I wouldn't bank too much on it. Or put too much stock in a long drive or some friendly text.
> 
> Groupies for the most part are just happy to throw themselves at their idols. Or hang around to see and be seen. Us more complicated women, LOL, expect a lot more from those we choose to become serious with.


I completely agree with you. My experience while dating, albeit many years ago, and that of my wife's, is that if you are very interested, you make time to be with that person.

I never went into any dating scenario expecting it to turn into a long term deal but when I met the right person, that changed quickly. When you meet someone that ticks a lot of your boxes, or maybe even all of them, you become way more available than you ever imagined.

That's how you gauge the other person's interest level as well. If someone can only see you once a week or once every few weeks, it's because they're just not that interested. What I've learned is this - people will do what they really want to do and if they're really into you, they'll make time for you.

My wife and I both worked long hours when we first met but still managed to see each other almost daily. It's because we both really wanted to. Imagine that.


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## kamiti (May 29, 2016)

Forget the long-term potential you see with her. She is also not playing games.

She wants sex, you want an LTR...go out there and get yourself a girl who is ready for a long-term relationship.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I would say that she just isn't that into you. Is it because she is protecting herself or is it because she's still looking for someone who ticks all her boxes? Not enough information here to tell. It may be a combination of both.
> 
> But since she is making it clear that this isn't exclusive and she can only find time for you once a month or so, I wouldn't expect it to become any more than FWB. It's possible she changes her mind, but I wouldn't bank too much on it. Or put too much stock in a long drive or some friendly text.
> 
> Groupies for the most part are just happy to throw themselves at their idols. Or hang around to see and be seen. Us more complicated women, LOL, expect a lot more from those we choose to become serious with.


We're not seeing each other for 3 weeks because we are both busy, not because she isn't willing to make time for me. I had custody of my kids this past week and she has tons of public appearances and work deadlines this week through July 24th. So our schedules didn't line up.


Anyway, I think she likes me more than she's leading on and don't think it's wishful thinking on my part. I sort of forced the issue this morning to either scare her off or confirm my hunch. I invited her to a world famous restaurant for our next date. Her response was "I'd love to go". It's $145/plate prefix menu but my friend is the general manager and is going to hook me up, but she doesn't know that. Ladies, if you're not that into a guy that you just started dating, how do you react if you he invites you to a $350 dinner?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

How is buying her an expensive dinner scaring her off? Or even pushing the issue?

Dude, I'm sorry, but I don't think her willingness to be treated to a great meal at a world famous restaurant necessarily indicates her interest. I wouldn't read too much into that if I were you. Maybe she's always wanted to eat there. Maybe it's her favorite haunt.

And maybe she does really dig you, but if she's still telling you it's casual and she's seeing other people, believe her. 

As other posters have pointed out, it sounds like you don't really want more than that anyway. Otherwise you wouldn't view dating and meeting people as a waste of time. And if you were all that into her, you'd probably realize you had magically had more time for her too.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

betrayeddad said:


> there are definitely still girls like that still out there. They are called "wife material."
> 
> you just have to go through a lot more duds to find her than you used too.
> 
> Casual sex has become "empowerment" for women. Sounds like the  small percentage of men that women actually want to have sex with are making out on that deal.


fify.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Ladies, if you're not that into a guy that you just started dating, how do you react if you he invites you to a $350 dinner?


She likes you enough to have sex with you, so why wouldn't she want to eat with you? If she is a celebrity, a $350 dinner doesn't impress her.

You are just a FWB until she tells you otherwise.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

IMO, I don't think she is super into him yet. But that doesn't mean that won't happen. When you hop into bed on the second date, you know there is enough initial attraction, but you still don't really know the person. The bond will either get closer, or fizzle out, too early to tell IMO.

One last thing, I have always been a fan of women that are more sexually liberated. Just because a woman knows what she wants sexually and enjoys it doesn't mean she is some sort of deviant that should be avoided.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> So correspondingly, any man who has engaged in casual sex is a dud and not "husband material"?


No, any man or woman who is currently engaging in casual sex is not husband or wife material. 

Including the rando you've apparently fallen for. Are you done with the intellectual dishonesty?


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> No, any man or woman who is currently engaging in casual sex is not husband or wife material.
> 
> Including the rando you've apparently fallen for. Are you done with the intellectual dishonestly?


I'm confused. By your standards OP is also not husband or LTR material. Is that what you are trying to tell him? He isn't qualified to want more than he has? :scratchhead:


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

wild jade said:


> I'm confused. By your standards OP is also not husband or LTR material. Is that what you are trying to tell him? He isn't qualified to want more than he has? :scratchhead:


Correct me if I'm wrong but OP isn't looking for casual sex, he's looking for a relationship. If all he wanted was casual sex then he wouldn't of made this thread.

But to your point, if he was just cruising around to bang chicks and didn't want more then no he wouldn't be relationship material. That doesn't seem to be the case with him. 

Isn't that your take on his position? I'm sure OP will clarify also.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Look lets recap because everyone has clearly lost focus in this thread.



TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> she point blank told me she didn't want a relationship but wanted to continue sleeping with me. And that both of us were free to sleep with other *people*.


People is the operative word. What more needs to be said?!? I actually appreciate her candor.



TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I really see long term potential with her


But there is NO relationship potential in someone like this. She's not interesting in settling down, period.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but OP isn't looking for casual sex, he's looking for a relationship. If all he wanted was casual sex then he wouldn't of made this thread.
> 
> But to your point, if he was just cruising around to bang chicks and didn't want more then no he wouldn't be relationship material. That doesn't seem to be the case with him.
> 
> Isn't that your take on his position? I'm sure OP will clarify also.


My impression is that OP wants an LTR too. But he is also currently engaging in casual sex, and you seemed to be saying that this disqualifies someone from being relationship material.

The woman he is interested in may also be looking for LTR after all. We have no way of knowing. And OP has made it pretty clear that any woman will take a back seat to his other priorities, and he is quite happy to enjoy the casual sex along the way.

The problem as I see it is that he is angling for more from someone who may not be able to give it to him. Someone always gets hurt in those cases.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but OP isn't looking for casual sex, he's looking for a relationship. If all he wanted was casual sex then he wouldn't of made this thread.
> 
> .


If he's not looking for casual sex then why is he having casual sex with this woman?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Vega said:


> If he's not looking for casual sex then why is he having casual sex with this woman?


Because he's hoping, it's going to turn into a relationship because he sees "long term potential".

All he's going to end up with, going down this road, is long term heartbreak.



wild jade said:


> The problem as I see it is that he is angling for more from someone who may not be able to give it to him. Someone always gets hurt in those cases.


Exactly.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Because he's hoping, it's going to turn into a relationship because he sees "long term potential".
> 
> All he's going to end up with, going down this road, is long term heartbreak.
> 
> .


I think that part of the problem is that OP wants it all to be so easy. One swipe of the Tindr and presto, automatic super LTR with gorgeous celebrity who is super into him. 

And it can happen that way, but expecting it to seems rather romantic fantasy to me.

Good thing he seems very comfortable taking advantage of the casual while he searches for more, don't you think? Unless you still think it disqualifies him from LTR?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

wild jade said:


> Good thing he seems very comfortable taking advantage of the casual while he searches for more, don't you think?


Despite what me may allude too, no I don't think he is comfortable with the casual sex. I don't believe he as any intention of pursuing anyone else at this time. The way he has been jumping to her defense, it reeks of nice guy whose smitten with a girl.

He wants HER to be his girlfriend, and it seems very likely he just agreed to the casual sex to keep her on the hook hoping she will change her mind and commit to him. 



wild jade said:


> Unless you still think it disqualifies him from LTR?


Having sex is not a disqualifier. ONLY wanting sex is a disqualifier. He wants more from her, she ONLY wants sex from him.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> Despite what me may allude too, no I don't think he is comfortable with the casual sex. I don't believe he as any intention of pursuing anyone else at this time. The way he has been jumping to her defense, it reeks of nice guy whose smitten with a girl.
> 
> He wants HER to be his girlfriend, and it seems very likely he just agreed to the casual sex to keep her on the hook hoping she will change her mind and commit to him.
> 
> ...


He's still swiping Tindr and keeping his eyes open. 

And for that matter, he's on Tindr because other sites focused on LTR's are too much work.

My guess is that he's pretty comfortable with casual -- but he can let us know if he is smitten or not.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Just wondering....why would you spend $300 for dinner on a woman who is willing to drive 6 hours and spend time with you for free, and who doesn't even want a commitment? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'd invest my $300 in someone who wants to stick around.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> But there is NO relationship potential in someone like this. She's not interesting in settling down, *period*.


No. She's not interesting in settling down, *at the moment*.

Who knows how she will feel at some point in the future, even she probably doesn't.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I always find it tough to understand the difference between being married to an unfaithful spouse and dating someone who dates others at the same time. 

TNK, I don't think she is being dishonest. I think she is just being truthful, which may not be easy to take or believe. If you want to be her one and only, I think you are going to be disappointed. She isn't ready. She may or may never be. Seems like a waste of time for you to pursue that side of it. I don't think you can enjoy her for who she is. I think it will eat at you and you will get frustrated.

Why not look for someone who is looking for someone? Why not date only those women who want to be in a great relationship and find it rewarding?

I guess she is proving to you she has the characteristics you've been looking for in a woman? Believe me, it's probably not true. She is who she is right now. She knows how to make you want her. She knows how to get you to let her go when she must be away, and not lose you completely. She is a user. 

Why do I think that? Because she won't let you get close, but doesn't let you go. 

Also, some male member of TAM in this thread said pretty much how I thought of and grew up with dating and so forth. It's changed immensely. In my mind, it's for the worse, but that's just my point of view. It's much better for many, and I don't want to seem like I believe folks who want to date the modern way are wrong. It just isn't for me.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

This is the post I most identify with. I'll be 54 at the end of September. I am not dating. Mainly because I am still hurting after 5 years. I just don't see the advantage of going from a marriage where my wife was cheating, to dating where the woman is sleeping around, or even just dating. I don't date others when I am dating. I only date one woman at a time. 

Too much pain in this thread for me. I get triggered pretty badly. Good luck. I hope you figure it out, TNK.





Thor said:


> Well I'm not sure that is a common practice these days. I am old enough (55) to remember the days when there was such a code. Once one went on the 2nd date exclusivity was implied unless otherwise stated. And, one did not continue to date beyond that point if one did not desire exclusivity. If it wasn't working out, you broke it off. And if all you were interested in was casual friendship or fwb you made that a clear arrangement without "dating" in the traditional sense.
> 
> But everything I hear, today it is the opposite. Exclusivity does not exist unless very specifically agreed to. Even after dating for a few months and being in what seems like a romantic and sexual relationship, there is no social code requiring exclusivity unless it has been agreed upon by both.
> 
> ...


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

WonkyNinja said:


> No. She's not interesting in settling down, *at the moment*.
> 
> Who knows how she will feel at some point in the future, even she probably doesn't.


Yeah obviously... And we are talking about the given moment not some hypothetical future where she may or may not come around.

Right now she is not relationship material, *period*.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Vega said:


> If he's not looking for casual sex then why is he having casual sex with this woman?



OP is hoping to wear her down in the hopes that she will one day want a LTR. My experience has been that this rarely happens though. I dated a lot of women in my time and I have never dated a woman that I was "lukewarm" about or just sorta liked initially but was "completely into" three months later. I just don't think that really ever happens.

That sexual vibe or attraction is something that hits you pretty much very early on. It's either there or it's not. That's not to say that you couldn't go out with that person a little bit or even have a casual relationship with that includes sex but it's doubtful that it ever blossoms into much more than that. You effectively are just used as "filler" until the other person meets someone who does rock their world.

As for the OP, he could keep dating her casually but do NOT get emotionally invested. If he can do that, he really has nothing to lose. If he can't, then heartbreak awaits.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Despite what me may allude too, no I don't think he is comfortable with the casual sex. I don't believe he as any intention of pursuing anyone else at this time. The way he has been jumping to her defense, it reeks of nice guy whose smitten with a girl.
> 
> He wants HER to be his girlfriend, and it seems very likely he just agreed to the casual sex to keep her on the hook hoping she will change her mind and commit to him.
> 
> ...


BOTH you and wild jade are half right. First of all, I'm not smitten with her. I see long term potential becaus she ticks off a lot of boxes. No other reason. I'm physically attracted to her, the sex is good, she's smart, agnostic, and open minded. They'd be deal killers for a LTR if she wasn't all of the above. If I seem smitten with her, it's probably just because I'm OCD about everything...

YES I want her to be my GF but I won't get all bent if it doesn't happen. The casual sex is fine until something else comes along. I'm a realist.

On a bright note, she has a break in her busy schedule and asked ME out this Friday. We're going to do something low key like dinner and a movie. I'm sticking to my original hunch that she likes me more than she is letting on and she's just being cautious. The fancy dinner is still on for the week after...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Mostlycontent said:


> OP is hoping to wear her down in the hopes that she will one day want a LTR. My experience has been that this rarely happens though. I dated a lot of women in my time and I have never dated a woman that I was "lukewarm" about or just sorta liked initially but was "completely into" three months later. I just don't think that really ever happens.
> 
> That sexual vibe or attraction is something that hits you pretty much very early on. It's either there or it's not. That's not to say that you couldn't go out with that person a little bit or even have a casual relationship with that includes sex but it's doubtful that it ever blossoms into much more than that. You effectively are just used as "filler" until the other person meets someone who does rock their world.
> 
> As for the OP, he could keep dating her casually but do NOT get emotionally invested. If he can do that, he really has nothing to lose. If he can't, then heartbreak awaits.


You do realize she made it crystal clear from day one that she wanted to have sex with me... The only questions is whether she doesn't want to commit to an exclusive relationship with ANYONE or JUST me...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

wild jade said:


> I think that part of the problem is that OP wants it all to be so easy. One swipe of the Tindr and presto, automatic super LTR with gorgeous celebrity who is super into him.
> 
> And it can happen that way, but expecting it to seems rather romantic fantasy to me.
> 
> Good thing he seems very comfortable taking advantage of the casual while he searches for more, don't you think? Unless you still think it disqualifies him from LTR?


I must say I was pleasantly surprised to meet someone like her through Tinder. I certainly wasn't "expecting" it. I'm OK with just the casual sex for now but not in the long run. I'm seeing her again Friday and am just going to keep things simple and live in the moment. When we go to our $350 dinner I'm going to have the exclusivity talk. I have a good feeling about the way things are headed...


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I must say I was pleasantly surprised to meet someone like her through Tinder. I certainly wasn't "expecting" it. I'm OK with just the casual sex for now but not in the long run. I'm seeing her again Friday and am just going to keep things simple and live in the moment. When we go to our $350 dinner I'm going to have the exclusivity talk. I have a good feeling about the way things are headed...


Okay, all the best. Hope it works out the way you want it to.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> So a few things about her so that I don't keep getting the generic "Tinder is a hookup site" advice because I think she is much more complicated than that. She divorced 2 years ago and then dated someone else for at least a year. So she hasn't been single all that long. She's very successful and also super busy like me. She's actually kinda famous and has a lengthy Wikipedia page and if you Google her name, her image appears all over the Internet. It kinda freaked me out actually because I can find out way too much about her if I go down that rabbit hole. She has lots of fans and I think one of the things she likes about me is that I'm completely outside of her social circle and fan base. But I also sense it's one of the reasons she keeps me at a distance...


Wear a rubber!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Begin again said:


> Wear a rubber!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually I do a test anytime I have sex with someone I just met. I always try to keep a condom handy but don't offer first. I always wait for them to ask. They've never not asked. I'm not sure what I would do if they didn't ask. I guess I'd probably still have sex with them but just be much more careful and maybe never see them again unless I really liked her.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

wild jade said:


> How is buying her an expensive dinner scaring her off? Or even pushing the issue?
> 
> Dude, I'm sorry, but I don't think her willingness to be treated to a great meal at a world famous restaurant necessarily indicates her interest. I wouldn't read too much into that if I were you. Maybe she's always wanted to eat there. Maybe it's her favorite haunt.
> 
> ...


Well it seems the $350 meal did scare her off. In a slightly bizarre sequence of events, on Monday she asked me out for Friday night. We agreed on "a movie and fooling around after". Tuesday we text to pick a movie etc. I also mention I need to make a reservation for 25th or 26th fancy dinner. She says, can we hold off on that for now? I said sure. Wednesday she texts me "I've been thinking about it for a few days, and don't think we should see each other anymore. I'm sorry. You're a great guy and it's been fun, but I don't think we're a good match - and anyway, you deserve a girl whose life is way less messy than mine. Everything has been overwhelming me lately, and I need to spend some time getting my head on straight. You've been nothing but a gentleman, so thanks for the good times. Xoxoxo"

I replied "No worries. I'm a big kid. But just curious, why did you ask me out this Friday?"

"It seemed like a good idea and then I realized I was completely stressed about it and should probably pull the plug."

I left it that but it seems like she was making things overly complicated as well. Her whole mini-speech felt like an early DATING breakup text, not what you'd say to someone you're just shagging. Anyway, I'm moving on. Not looking back...


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> Her whole mini-speech felt like an early DATING breakup text, not what you'd say to someone you're just shagging.


Just curious, but what were you expecting she would say in a breakup text, since you were just shagging? Is there a different protocol for breaking up with a FWB rather than someone you're dating?


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Just curious, but what were you expecting she would say in a breakup text, since you were just shagging? Is there a different protocol for breaking up with a FWB rather than someone you're dating?


Well, obviously, he thought there was more than there was. Doesn't matter what he posted. 


TNK,

Get your butt out on a date as fast as you can. Be careful, but have sex as soon as possible with someone new. Get this one out of your head.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Just curious, but what were you expecting she would say in a breakup text, since you were just shagging? Is there a different protocol for breaking up with a FWB rather than someone you're dating?


"I think you are looking for an LTR and I'm not" or some polite way of saying the sex isn't that good, which without trying to sound like the typical guy, I don't was the case. Otherwise why did she ask to meetup Friday to shag? And if she did find somebody who was a better lay, just say "I met someone else"...

"I don't think we're a good match - and anyway, you deserve a girl whose life is way less messy than mine." is a dating excuse. None of that is relevant if we are just shagging. I too am "overwhelmed" and "stressed" which is why it was so refreshing to just have a good time and screw with no strings attached. But if she asks me out, then stresses out about it, then clearly she's making it more complicated than she was letting on (my original theory). I certainly didn't stress before seeing her like she apparently did with me. It was immensely calming and relaxing to talk to a virtual stranger who knows nothing about all the sh!t in my life then fvck right after...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> TNK,
> 
> Get your butt out on a date as fast as you can. Be careful, but have sex as soon as possible with someone new. Get this one out of your head.


Good advice. Already making progress...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...42394-did-she-really-just-try-set-me-up.html#


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> "*I think you are looking for an LTR and I'm not"* or some polite way of saying the sex isn't that good, which without trying to sound like the typical guy, I don't was the case. Otherwise why did she ask to meetup Friday to shag? And if she did find somebody who was a better lay, just say "I met someone else"...
> 
> "I don't think we're a good match - and anyway, you deserve a girl whose life is way less messy than mine." is a dating excuse. None of that is relevant if we are just shagging. I too am "overwhelmed" and "stressed" which is why it was so refreshing to just have a good time and screw with no strings attached. But if she asks me out, then stresses out about it, then clearly she's making it more complicated than she was letting on (my original theory). I certainly didn't stress before seeing her like she apparently did with me. It was immensely calming and relaxing to talk to a virtual stranger who knows nothing about all the sh!t in my life then fvck right after...


What she said to you sounds to me like another way of saying exactly that --that she can tell you're getting a whole lot more serious than she was willing to get involved with. She wouldn't say it directly because she wants to let you down easy and also not try to embarrass you.

My take anyway.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

wild jade said:


> What she said to you sounds to me like another way of saying exactly that --that she can tell you're getting a whole lot more serious than she was willing to get involved with. She wouldn't say it directly because she wants to let you down easy and also not try to embarrass you.
> 
> My take anyway.


That was exactly my conclusion. I thought we had a good thing going and perhaps the restaurant idea was stupid. I'm inclined to leave it alone but also want to let her know I absolutely wasn't trying to rush into something serious. I'm not ready for that right now. Let her know that or just move on...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> That was exactly my conclusion. I thought we had a good thing going and perhaps the restaurant idea was stupid. I'm inclined to leave it alone but also want to let her know I absolutely wasn't trying to rush into something serious. I'm not ready for that right now. Let her know that or just move on...


The one who told you she wasn't interested? Don't say a word to her. Let it go. 

Conversely, telling her you wanted to go out on an expensive date brought out the truth from her. You needed to hear that. Believe her and move on. You didn't have much invested.

I think it was a fortunate accident. Count your lucky stars.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> That was exactly my conclusion. I thought we had a good thing going and perhaps the restaurant idea was stupid. I'm inclined to leave it alone but also want to let her know I absolutely wasn't trying to rush into something serious. I'm not ready for that right now. Let her know that or just move on...


I would just let it go. In a way, you were going to rush--you were planning to use that dinner to talk to her about exclusivity after all.

Better off to find someone who is more on the same page as you.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

I've moved on. Unfortunate because we could have been good friends but it's kinda weird after you breakup, barely know each other, and try to be friends.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> I've moved on. Unfortunate because we could have been good friends but it's kinda weird after you breakup, barely know each other, and try to be friends.


Probably best that you didn't try to remain friends. I hope you don't find this offensive, but IMO I think you liked her a lot more than you are even admitting to yourself. Its a guy thing, we've all done it.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Probably best that you didn't try to remain friends. I hope you don't find this offensive, but IMO I think you liked her a lot more than you are even admitting to yourself. Its a guy thing, we've all done it.


No. Absolutely not the case. I had a bad breakup with my girlfriend, whom I'd take back in a second if we could reconcile. This was helping fill the void.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Rowan said:


> Honestly, if you're too busy for online dating, then you may really need to think about how much time you can realistically devote to a committed relationship. That may be particularly true if you're drawn to similarly busy and successful women who are, like you, unlikely to have much time to "waste doing 'single' things".


I understand what you're telling OP. But...the "online dating experience", as I remember it from before meeting my wife...was not simply time-consuming, it was annoying and tedious. Seemed like I'd find someone interesting, we'd trade some emails, I'd suggest a coffee meet, she'd not respond to the request but just send another lengthy email talking about more stuff and..well, my job kept me sedentary and in front of a computer far too much already. The other thing about the online stuff was the various expectations. I've never been glued to email, so a delay of 2-4 days is common - and some of the women I didn't meet considered that unacceptable.

Has online dating changed? I don't think I could be particularly satisfied massaging my bio, taking more selfies, looking at pics and 4-sentence descriptions online. Or can it be more involved now?



Rowan said:


> Really think about what you want from the dating experience. Do you really want a committed relationship? Are you willing to devote the time and energy required to develop a serious relationship? Can you make compromises to accommodate her schedule if it's as busy as yours, or do you need her to mold herself around the time you can spare? Or would a FWB for dates and low-maintenance sex a few times a month better fit the reality of your lifestyle? Once you can really understand and clearly articulate the relationship type you're actually interested in, it becomes much easier to find that relationship. Be honest with yourself and with the women you see.


I think this is great advice.

I'm married, but it's dubious whether that's permanent. Our counselor has advised both of us (both of us are cautious) to consider "Plan B", basically what will you do if you split. How will you socialize, grow your circle of friends, etc. Back in my single days, I met women IRL...I just did stuff like hiking groups, skiing, etc, and met them there. Took a lot less time to make or not make a connection, IMO.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

So I met another girl on Monday at a bar and got her number. Although I texted her the next day, she was very direct and asked me out. We went out for dinner and drinks last night. Afterwards, she invited me over to meet her dog - she said her dog had to approve of me. Of course we ended up having sex and I spent the night. She was lovey dovey with me all night including walking me to my car. Though oddly, at some point in the evening before sex, I don't remember the context, I mentioned "next time" and she said "if there is a next time". Otherwise there was way too much cuddling and spooning with someone I just met. So this is definitely becoming a recurring pattern. I've never had a string of women all so eager to jump in the sack. I'm loving every minute of it but now starting to wonder if I'm just being used for sex. She's a preschool teacher and it kinda blew my mind how horny and aggressive she was. I really think the Tinder generation is just all about the hookup...


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## mitchell (May 19, 2014)

TomorrowNeverKnows said:


> So I met another girl on Monday at a bar and got her number. Although I texted her the next day, she was very direct and asked me out. We went out for dinner and drinks last night. Afterwards, she invited me over to meet her dog - she said her dog had to approve of me. Of course we ended up having sex and I spent the night. She was lovey dovey with me all night including walking me to my car. Though oddly, at some point in the evening before sex, I don't remember the context, I mentioned "next time" and she said "if there is a next time". Otherwise there was way too much cuddling and spooning with someone I just met. So this is definitely becoming a recurring pattern. I've never had a string of women all so eager to jump in the sack. I'm loving every minute of it but now starting to wonder if I'm just being used for sex. She's a preschool teacher and it kinda blew my mind how horny and aggressive she was. I really think the Tinder generation is just all about the hookup...


Interesting pattern. I wonder if you are sending out a vibe these ladies pick up on as just being sexually available.

I'm curious what the sex was like with the "aggressive" preschool teacher. First time sex is often tentative and even awkward. As things usually get better with familiarity, I'm wondering why so many of these women might be content with a ONS as she implied.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

mitchell said:


> Interesting pattern. I wonder if you are sending out a vibe these ladies pick up on as just being sexually available.
> 
> I'm curious what the sex was like with the "aggressive" preschool teacher. First time sex is often tentative and even awkward. As things usually get better with familiarity, I'm wondering why so many of these women might be content with a ONS as she implied.


Not the OP, but IMO this woman knew exactly how this was going to go down before the OP knew. When a woman takes the initiative like she did I don't see her being the tentative or shy type at all.


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

mitchell said:


> Interesting pattern. I wonder if you are sending out a vibe these ladies pick up on as just being sexually available.


I attract the girl next door type. Trashier looking girls have never been my type, though it's not really by choice. Those women still intimidate me, but I've become a machine at bedding the girl next door. I've got this shtick down where I'm the perfect gentleman with just enough sexual innuendo to drive them crazy. It's what I know and it works. I guess that's my vibe. 



mitchell said:


> I'm curious what the sex was like with the "aggressive" preschool teacher. First time sex is often tentative and even awkward. As things usually get better with familiarity, I'm wondering why so many of these women might be content with a ONS as she implied.


LOL. I asked her if she had protection. She said "Like mace?" I had to kill the moment to get a condom from my car. Actually, it was scary how much she was like my ex-GF - scratching my back with her fingernails and wrapping her legs around me in the same EXACT way. The only awkwardness was that I had a hard time staying erect the entire time. I don't get nervous but doing it for over an hour straight is tough when that intimacy is not there yet. She gave an incredible blow job though and is certainly not inexperienced. I don't think she had an orgasm but I didn't ask and she might be the quiet type. She texted me she wants to see me again so something worked. I'm seeing her Sunday night...


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## TomorrowNeverKnows (Jan 27, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> Not the OP, but IMO this woman knew exactly how this was going to go down before the OP knew. When a woman takes the initiative like she did I don't see her being the tentative or shy type at all.


I've told gay friends that I'm jealous of them and jokingly wish that I was gay. When both sides want sex, there are no games, and it is so easy to hookup with no strings attached. That is definitely one thing gay men have on hetero guys.

My prior dating experience, 15 years ago, was the typical for many men. Fearing rejection, constantly trying to impress my dates, and avoiding the dreaded friend zone. Hoping for kiss at the end of the first date, wondering how many dates before sex etc... My 3 most recent first dates, there has never been any question about sex. I pretty much knew it was on within an hour. It almost became a rush to get back to her place or my place.

My self assessment is that there are a few different factors that have changed. First and foremost, I'm definitely more experienced and comfortable around women than in my 20's. They find that quiet confidence highly sexual. I'm also more "manly" looking than in the past and thus viewed more sexually. When I was 28, I looked like I was 15. I'm 6'1 but was maybe 160 lbs. Now that I'm 44, I now look 28 and has filled out to a nice 180. Lastly, I really do think the sexual attitude of women has changed. Tinder and all these other forms of instant gratification have enabled it. But also we don't have a whole generation panicked by AIDS or some other deadly STD...


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