# Do you contribute to toxic masculinity?



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Daughter had dance last night. As a dad, its an uncomfortable environment. You ever seen a dad love on his kids and express his love? Yeah, we've all seen it. Women, when you express your love for your kids do you ever feel like people are judging you? I know I shouldn't care, but it impacts men. It does because its usually men who are the freakin creeps sexually abusing kids and so forth. So when you are trying to show your love, there's always this thought to hold back a bit because the stigma is there and for good reason. But its something that normal guys have to deal with as well. I remember a video where Tom Brady wanted a kiss from his son. Then it turned into claims of incest and that he's gay and all this. 

There's these YouTubers I watch and in one of the videos hes talking about how he made a post about how he doesn't want his daughter to get married until they are 35. Now his head was coming from a place of "when they get married, they leave. Move states. Start their own family and they are gone" and he said he had a few people reply that its incestual thoughts that he has that he doesn't want anyone to be with his daughter. 

This got me thinking. Its not just kids, I can't tell another woman that she's important to me. Even in sales with strangers, I wouldn't joke around with women. Felt like they would think I'm trying to flirt with them or something. So i would treat them more coldly I guess you could say. Just to squash out any doubt. Natural playful instincts had to be squashed out. 

I'm a touchy feely person. I love hugs and kisses and just being close to my wife and kids. When I'm in public, I have to consciously think about how my behavior looks. Do women experience this? So maybe im more cold and distant at times where my wife can just be herself. 

Now, I think women are more judgemental of this stuff because they have had the creeps approach them at such a young age themselves. So they are looking at things through this filter. I don't blame them, but it does contribute to things like men not expressing their emotions the way they would want to express them. Being guarded protects us from this other side of things as well. So I go into dance and I can't try to be friends with any of these girls. I just keep my head down. Lots of fathers just sit in their cars until class is over. They don't even sit inside. Its so uncomfortable sometimes. You know dance outfits. Men just stare at the floor or don't even come inside. So there's this pressure from society it feels like as well to be distant. Because weve done so much damage as men, I understand where that is coming from, I really do. 

How do we fix this issue? Its easy to sit and blame men for everything, but some stuff we can't fix ourselves. This is a very real thing men feel. It contributes to what is known as toxic masculinity. 


Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Daughter had dance last night. As a dad, its an uncomfortable environment. You ever seen a dad love on his kids and express his love? Yeah, we've all seen it. Women, when you express your love for your kids do you ever feel like people are judging you? I know I shouldn't care, but it impacts men. It does because its usually men who are the freakin creeps sexually abusing kids and so forth. So when you are trying to show your love, there's always this thought to hold back a bit because the stigma is there and for good reason. But its something that normal guys have to deal with as well. I remember a video where Tom Brady wanted a kiss from his son. Then it turned into claims of incest and that he's gay and all this.
> 
> There's these YouTubers I watch and in one of the videos hes talking about how he made a post about how he doesn't want his daughter to get married until they are 35. Now his head was coming from a place of "when they get married, they leave. Move states. Start their own family and they are gone" and he said he had a few people reply that its incestual thoughts that he has that he doesn't want anyone to be with his daughter.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the brave new world! Where MSM, Third Wavers and the court systems have taught the new generation that "men are bad" and are doing everything they can to feminize males. So much so that, now, anything remotely male is considered "toxic"


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@TheDudeLebowski I kind of think this is not necessarily a situation that needs fixing; more like a situation that needs to be designed in the first place, particularly in the US (I'm not sure other western countries have such a taboo on physical affection). But in the west, I don't think there has been a time in the past when men behaved anything less than "manly". Dad ate rocks and that was that.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I'll give an example. My mom and her husband are over a few months ago. We are all sitting on the couch watching a movie. He's next to my mom and my daughter. Several times throughout the movie, like me, you reach over and rub the leg of those next to you. It's not even a conscious thing, it's just something you do. Well he rubbed my daughter's knee and my wife saw it. She nudged me and pointed it out. I just shrugged. But then I was watching and he did the same thing to my mom. I dont see anything wrong with that. 

Later on, my wife was telling me how uncomfortable she was with him touching her leg. Blew me away. He rubbed on her knee for like 2 seconds maybe. He was staring at the TV the entire time. Probably trying to pay attention because he's from Russia and has to pay attention to understand all the conversations in a movie being ESL. He's a good guy. Not a creep bone in his body. Just a good dude. If he heard this conversation he would have been mortified! Then he would close off. Because that's just what we have to do. Then we are toxic for being distant and not able to express our emotions. Just saying, not all of this is because of men alone. I mean, I guess it is because we put that fear in women. Seems like a cycle that is repeating itself over and over because of a few bad apples. Get rid of the bad apples is where to start, I understand. But i guess we need to know how to help you heal so eventually you ladies can help is heal. Seems like this will be a long road to recovery. We are all so f***ing scared of one another anymore. ****, no wonder everyone is on drugs. ****ing sucks


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

That's the world we live in now. Social media, instant gratification, and there is always someone that can find something to get mad about and launch a twitter attack. I'm not a big social media guy at all so it doesn't really affect me one way or the other. I have a young daughter in dance as well. I don't have a problem sitting there during her class at all. I've talked to a few moms and a few dads. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think women perceive you as creepy or coming on to them until you're being creepy and coming on to them. Striking up a conversation with fellow parents is fine in my opinion. Just know what good boundaries are and maintain them. As for the other dads looking down at the floor or waiting in their cars - that's their problem/insecurity. A secure man or woman should have no problem carrying on a conversation with anybody.

Saw this last night and thought it was hilarious:


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Welcome to the brave new world! Where MSM, Third Wavers and the court systems have taught the new generation that "men are bad" and are doing everything they can to feminize males. So much so that, now, anything remotely male is considered "toxic"


Spare me this tired argument. You see it as all things, that's your own insecurity. You need to work that out yourself. I see what people are talking about. I just think women contribute more than they realize. The sins of our fathers....


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well he rubbed my daughter's knee and my wife saw it.


The big problem with stuff like that is that it's some of the the same actions that a pedo would do. A kid isn't going to necessarily have the evaluative skills to know that when Uncle John does it it's just a nice gesture, but when Uncle Pat does it it's the first stages of grooming. If she learns it's okay when Uncle John does it, she may also think it's okay when Uncle Pat does it (or a teacher, priest, bus driver, etc.). From many of the horror stories that come up about childhood sexual abuse, it's clear that many times no one other than the child had any clue about what was going on.

So although in theory I think actions like these should be okay, in practice there is so much potential for abuse and confusion that I think it's okay to have some bright red lines around this kind of behavior.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

"Then we are toxic for being distant and not able to express our emotions"

That's not toxic

"I mean, I guess it is because we put that fear in women"

Who is this we you speak of?

You have really bought into the narrative


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

My wife has told me that she stopped getting hugs from her dad around the age of 12. She understands why but it still hurt her.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Tex X said:


> That's the world we live in now. Social media, instant gratification, and there is always someone that can find something to get mad about and launch a twitter attack. I'm not a big social media guy at all so it doesn't really affect me one way or the other. I have a young daughter in dance as well. I don't have a problem sitting there during her class at all. I've talked to a few moms and a few dads. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think women perceive you as creepy or coming on to them until you're being creepy and coming on to them. Striking up a conversation with fellow parents is fine in my opinion. Just know what good boundaries are and maintain them. As for the other dads looking down at the floor or waiting in their cars - that's their problem/insecurity. A secure man or woman should have no problem carrying on a conversation with anybody.
> 
> Saw this last night and thought it was hilarious:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-OnIgsPnP4


Yeah I know. My wife works in education. You wouldn't believe the reasons people choose to call CPS, and the reasons people choose NOT to call CPS. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy but I realize everyone is ****ing crazy. You are right though. Connections are important. They make all the difference. I'm just Locked down by my own fears. You shouldn't care what people think, but it's also important to care enough to give standard service to one another. I've always had trouble living in the extremes. Connect with everyone. Isolate from everyone. Moderation isn't in my skill set, really with anything in life. 

Ahhhhhh. I'm just drinking today. Ignore me.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

wilson said:


> The big problem with stuff like that is that it's some of the the same actions that a pedo would do. A kid isn't going to necessarily have the evaluative skills to know that when Uncle John does it it's just a nice gesture, but when Uncle Pat does it it's the first stages of grooming. If she learns it's okay when Uncle John does it, she may also think it's okay when Uncle Pat does it (or a teacher, priest, bus driver, etc.). From many of the horror stories that come up about childhood sexual abuse, it's clear that many times no one other than the child had any clue about what was going on.
> 
> So although in theory I think actions like these should be okay, in practice there is so much potential for abuse and confusion that I think it's okay to have some bright red lines around this kind of behavior.


I get it. I really do. Feels like chopping the knees off of somebody in order to save them from walking. You know?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I’m touchy feely and huggy, too. But I can’t be affectionate like that because it’s unwanted by others.

The trick for me is to understand that their feelings are more important than mine when it comes to what others want to have happen to their body.

So not complaining that I can’t touch people is where I start. Instead just realize that people don’t want me to touch them and that it’s fair and normal for them to feel this way.


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

Fozzy said:


> My wife has told me that she stopped getting hugs from her dad around the age of 12. She understands why but it still hurt her.


That's pretty sad. My oldest is 15 and I still hug her and tell her I love her on a daily basis. I couldn't imagine not doing that and couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about it.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Such a good little White Knight


Wake up man. Go read both threads of women and men at what ages they experience some sexual disgusting behavior. My son was 8 when it first happened. Look at all the court cases. Just open your damn eyes. I'm open now about how terrible I am and what makes me less than. The only white knight wanna be losers are the men white knighting for people to pretend there's nothing to see here. No problem at all. Your perfect little bubble will burst some day and what will happen is we will all still be here, ready to support you when it does. There wont be an "I told you so" if that is what you are scared of. Clearly you are as scared as I am. Scared to dig into things. Scared to face the truth. Scared to confront it. Scared to point it out. Scared to move. So sit there in your fear and anger all you want. Maybe your **** smells like roses now. Pray it stays that way.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Tex X said:


> That's pretty sad. My oldest is 15 and I still hug her and tell her I love her on a daily basis. I couldn't imagine not doing that and couldn't care less what anybody else thinks about it.


Her dad has a lot of baggage due to his own childhood abuse. It factors in heavily with how he interacts with his kids and grandkids. 

I’m actually the first person he ever told about any of it. Carried it with him his whole life.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m touchy feely and huggy, too. But I can’t be affectionate like that because it’s unwanted by others.
> 
> The trick for me is to understand that their feelings are more important than mine when it comes to what others want to have happen to their body.
> 
> So not complaining that I can’t touch people is where I start. Instead just realize that people don’t want me to touch them and that it’s fair and normal for them to feel this way.


It's not really a complaint. I'm expressing my own fear right now. Judgement. I was waiting for my daughter to get out of school. Son switched schools this year. I saw 5th grade class and was joking around with his friends for a minute. I had done some field trips and a few have slept over at the house. So I was just shooting the **** with these boys for a minute. 

I dont think I could do that with 5th grade girls. Why is it stopping me? Conversations like the one my wife had with me about the knee rub... it's not just that its comments of every guy being a creep at some point. I'm not a creep, but I'm a guy. I'm sure I've been accused of being creepy at some point like my wife accuse him. This is just a thing that causes men to shield themselves. Doesn't have to be touch, could be anything. Just talking. Like I said, I treated women way different. Especially if I thought they were attractive women. I was cold to them. Business only. But I mean, I remember another sales rep was joking around with a family and everything seemed fine. Next day there was a complaint that the man thought the sales rep was hitting on his 14 year old daughter. Again, this is a good guy being accused of that. He's just a sales rep. They teach you to make a connection. That's the first step in sales. Connect. Then worry about the rest of it. Stuff like that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Stumbling and bumbling with this stuff is part of the process. Just like we're undergoing up here with the indigenous stuff, just like people did in the 60's with the sexual revolution and "give peace a chance."

This IS the revolution of our time - actual equality. Men and women are going to get it wrong. Find a new balance. Course correct. The mistakes are part of the journey.

If you're asking yourself if you're part of the problem... then you're part of the solution. That's the journey. That's the awakening.

Don't listen to the butt-hurt complaints that are really about protecting the status quo that really didn't work for anyone. When you go through these kind of revolutions, there will always be those invested in how it used to be for their own reasons. People that try to tear down progress. Hold people back. Call it out, but don't let them hold you back.

They're afraid because things are changing, and the old rules are being cast aside. And that's a good thing. But it does mean that we need to figure out new social norms for this stuff. I get it wrong, too. I sure hear about it from women in my life, but so do they. And that's OK.

Our kids are not going to put up with this stuff. So we better buckle up.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I’m touchy feely and huggy, too. But I can’t be affectionate like that because it’s unwanted by others.
> ...


I understand your feelings but it’s much more important to me to protect other people.

One of my kids was raped. I will never discuss that here but because of this, I also would have not wanted the guy touching my daughter or my sons leg on the couch.

It just doesn’t matter to me that some adults feelings will be hurt, it’s not about them.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

"I'm open now about how terrible I am and what makes me less than."

How terrible you are? For being a man? 

What makes you less than? For not being a woman?

You are the one who I feel sorry for and I mean that honestly. Here is some news for you, no matter what you may have heard, most men are not bad.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Marduk said:


> Stumbling and bumbling with this stuff is part of the process. Just like we're undergoing up here with the indigenous stuff, just like people did in the 60's with the sexual revolution and "give peace a chance."
> 
> This IS the revolution of our time - actual equality. Men and women are going to get it wrong. Find a new balance. Course correct. The mistakes are part of the journey.
> 
> ...


Thanks man. I think about the damage our parents did to us and I'm worried. I'm worried about not being a good father. I know I've not been the best. It's not even noon and I'm hammered :laugh:


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand your feelings but it’s much more important to me to protect other people.
> 
> One of my kids was raped. I will never discuss that here but because of this, I also would have not wanted the guy touching my daughter or my sons leg on the couch.
> 
> It just doesn’t matter to me that some adults feelings will be hurt, it’s not about them.


You are of course right and that's what I mean. It's not only judgement of myself that hurts me, it's the judgement of me that hurts others. So it's never ending. I'm conscious about not making others uncomfortable. So I tend to isolate more. Again, I cant deal with moderation. This is my issue. I'm either open or I'm closed. And it's completely open or completely closed. I'm either stone sober or ****ed up. I'm either all in or I quit. I don't know how to operate in moderation. It's like it's not an option for me.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> "I'm open now about how terrible I am and what makes me less than."
> 
> How terrible you are? For being a man?
> 
> ...


I know most men aren't bad. I think most men are good and turn a blind eye when they see a problem they dont know how to solve. That is the issue. There IS a problem. Ignoring it won't fix it either so I feel equally sorry for those who choose to ignore its existence as if there's nothing to see here.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I am comfortable with talking with women / men ,boys / girls of any age. (OK I don't like children ,but that is a different issue).

For me touch borders too closely to sexual so I avoid anything beyond a hand shake with anyone of any age and any gender. I will hug children because it is expected, but I'm not comfortable with it. I will return hugs from "touch" friends, but with as little contact as possible. 

An earlier poster mentioned someone touching someones leg while watching a movie. For me that is a HUGE NO, unless they are intimate partners ( or both are interested in that direction). 

I'm all in favor of and greatly enjoy touch with intimate partners - but ONLY with them.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Im a toxic male.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> "I'm open now about how terrible I am and what makes me less than."
> 
> How terrible you are? For being a man?
> 
> ...


It may help you to realize that the long term posters at TAM have already heard alllllll about the red pill and we have discussed it over and over, mostly many years ago. For the most part, people at TAM realize it for what it is: a bunch of men who are bitter and sad about their lives. And for the most part, people at TAM are not red pill, though we have 1 or 2 who will gladly join the pity parade with you.

My point is, please don't think you are here educating any of us. We all know the talking points you are making, we have heard them before. Most here don't agree.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> Numb26 said:
> 
> 
> > "I'm open now about how terrible I am and what makes me less than."
> ...


Ah, a Third Waver using her go to tactic, shaming. Sorry, doesn't work me. As long as society continues to teach boys that they need to feel ashamed to be males and girls that they need to look at every male as a potential predator, things are just gonna get worse. Making men more like women and vice versa will just exacerbate the situation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Ah, a Third Waver using her go to tactic, shaming. Sorry, doesn't work me. As long as society continues to teach boys that they need to feel ashamed to be males and girls that they need to look at every male as a potential predator, things are just gonna get worse. Making men more like women and vice versa will just exacerbate the situation.


Blah blah blah, nyah nyah nyah, women suck, men are awesome, yada yada.

Like I said, we've heard it all before.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> Numb26 said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, a Third Waver using her go to tactic, shaming. Sorry, doesn't work me. As long as society continues to teach boys that they need to feel ashamed to be males and girls that they need to look at every male as a potential predator, things are just gonna get worse. Making men more like women and vice versa will just exacerbate the situation.
> ...


I dont believe I said or even insinuated "women suck" anywhere in this thread. As a matter of fact, I only talked about men. I also noticed that instead of actually reading the points I was trying to make, you just had, yadda, yada'ed. If you can't have a constructive argument with someone that has opposing views then you do, then that says more about you than any ideas you may want to share.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> I dont believe I said or even insinuated "women suck" anywhere in this thread. As a matter of fact, I only talked about men. I also noticed that instead of actually reading the points I was trying to make, you just had, yadda, yada'ed. If you can't have a constructive argument with someone that has opposing views then you do, then that says more about you than any ideas you may want to share.


Oh yes you are so right, you already know so much about me. You have me allllll figured out and you know that I'm an "angry third wave feminist" and of course saying that to me means you really honestly want to engage with me and have a "constructive argument". Riiiiiiight.

The really funny thing is that I've had dozens of this type of back and forth posts with dudes just like you, and every single one of them goes the same way. I wonder why that is?

Whereas I have had thousands of conversations on TAM with people of all kinds which go very well, and we really enjoy each other and actually do have great conversations, some of them are my friends outside of TAM, we have been through years of ups and downs, goods and bads, and we genuinely care about each other.

But sure....you can just go on thinking that you have me all figured out and I am the one who isn't being "constructive". Have at it!


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> Ah, a Third Waver using her go to tactic, shaming. Sorry, doesn't work me. As long as society continues to teach boys that they need to feel ashamed to be males and girls that they need to look at every male as a potential predator, things are just gonna get worse. Making men more like women and vice versa will just exacerbate the situation.


When people like FW argue against this kind of stuff, their arguments are typically very complete and well understood. They can clearly define what their biases, opinions, and feelings about the matter are and how they were formed. But quite often when posters are arguing the position you are making, they seem to just be reciting a lot of talking points that they read somewhere on the internet. If you are going to take this position, please try to fully explain it, how you came to it, how it relates to your life, how it relates to our life, etc. Speaking as a guy, I don't always understand that kind of philosophy or why it would make my life or the world better if we all thought this way.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Numb26 said:


> Ah, a Third Waver using her go to tactic, shaming. Sorry, doesn't work me. As long as society continues to teach boys that they need to feel ashamed to be males and girls that they need to look at every male as a potential predator, things are just gonna get worse. Making men more like women and vice versa will just exacerbate the situation.


You are blind. I was in the same boat. Marduk was too. Nobody is making men more like women. Especially FW of all people who just loves a tall, big, strong, manly man. Red pill has some perks. Look better, feel better about yourself. 
Be confident, take care of your body. Literally everything women have been saying for a looooooong ass time. It comes from a man and now it's a good point. But they inject other nonsense into their ideology that is just stupid fodder for the hopeless man. The worthless man. And hopeless. Worthless men eat it up. I know all about being hopeless and worthless. I'm not surprised why I ended up commiserating with the other worthless men. Victims of our own inferiority complex we created. 

I opened up and what happened was I wasnt turned away. I was accepted. I was instantly forgiven. I did NOTHING to earn that forgiveness. Yet it was given to me. For no reason at all. Can you not see we are all frightened out of our minds! We are terrified of one another. Look at all we have done. You can sit there and pretend like it doesn't exist. When it hits you. And it will, I'll be here man. With open arms. Just look around you my guy. What the **** is going on right now? People are tired of being afraid. We are fed up with it. 

There's a difference between right and wrong. Simple as that. It's really as simple as that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> It may help you to realize that the long term posters at TAM have already heard alllllll about the red pill and we have discussed it over and over, mostly many years ago. For the most part, people at TAM realize it for what it is: a bunch of men who are bitter and sad about their lives. And for the most part, people at TAM are not red pill, though we have 1 or 2 who will gladly join the pity parade with you.
> 
> My point is, please don't think you are here educating any of us. We all know the talking points you are making, we have heard them before. Most here don't agree.


As I've said before, been there, done that, learned a lot, puked it back up again and learned even more.

The funny part of the red pill is that it fundamentally puts women up on a pedestal as gatekeepers of male sexuality, and puts down 80% of men as the ones that can never get women, because they don't cut it. The whole concept that 20% of guys get 100% of the girls, and then the "nice guys" get stuck with the "alpha male" leftovers when women want to get married and have kids is so anti-male that it's bizarre that it's held up as a men's empowerment kind of movement.

It's not male empowerment. It fetishizes women's sexuality to the point that uses it as a benchmark to measure men's self-worth against it, like the "are you tall enough to get on this ride" measuring sticks at Disneyland... and finds the vast majority don't measure up.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Could be a good discussion. Alas. 

All one can really say.
Read orwells 1984. Watch movie, the giver.

Both are about sameness, not questioning, newspeak/political correctness. 
Then look at the world in actuality and ask yourself. Are we heading in those directions?
@TheDudeLebowski quit beating yourself up!


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Jesus your name is Numb26 ffs. Numb. That is so fitting. I could have been numb25 myself. Numbing everything. Angry. Scared. Alone. Isolated by all my fears. When you just let go people pull you in and save you. Comfort you. I dare you to try it! I dare you to start a thread and give us your biggest secret you dont want anyone to know. I dare you to face your fears. See what happens.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

red oak said:


> Could be a good discussion. Alas.
> 
> All one can really say.
> Read orwells 1984. Watch movie, the giver.
> ...


How can we not? How much fear have I put into others? For what gains? Who gained anything from that? By all rights I should have lost EVERYTHING! life isn't fair. I'm living proof. Far better people than me dont find the love I have. What did I ever contribute? What makes me worthy? I can't stand the injustice of it. I can't stand myself for being what I am, what I was. And now I feel like I see the light and Marduk was right, I get all preachy. Like I'm some sort of savior. I'll never learn. 

God I need to take a break. You guys take care. I'm out for a while. 

Love y'all.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I've actually spent quite a bit of time talking to Athol Kay, the guy that I'm pretty sure spawned the whole thing - or at least gave it the "red pill" rallying cry.

If anyone's interested in some of the thinking that went into that stuff.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

This must be a cultural thing. In my cultural experiences, none of fears in the discussions above apply. We give aloha but careful not to “spread it”. It is just tacitly understood. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Marduk said:


> I've actually spent quite a bit of time talking to Athol Kay, the guy that I'm pretty sure spawned the whole thing - or at least gave it the "red pill" rallying cry.
> 
> If anyone's interested in some of the thinking that went into that stuff.


Actually, I think it was Rollo Tomassi (pen name). Athol made its concepts more main stream, atleast with dudes in dead bedroom marriages.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

WTF is toxic masculinity? A stupid gillette commercial? Fk that, do onto others. Can't go wrong. Don't fee ashamed to be a red meat eating male.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> WTF is toxic masculinity? A stupid gillette commercial? Fk that, do onto others. Can't go wrong. Don't fee ashamed to be a red meat eating male.


Being male. That's it. 

There are groups who find the mere existence of males as a toxic situation and they want us removed from the species.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

From Wkipedia:

*The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity#Psychology_and_gender_roles

I dislike the term “toxic masculinity.” Wiki says it came from the mythopoetic men’s movement, but women coopting and using a phrase like that is offensive. I didn’t like Gillette criticizing its own customers. I certainly agree with stopping bullying, aggression, and changing gender roles. Boys should be taught to cook and clean, etc.

I can assure you that bullying is done by girls to other girls.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Yeah, gonna have to respectfully disagree with the premise here.

I have found that amongst men, the concept of being open and vulnerable is not an issue. Get a group of men in a rehab or treatment group of some kind, or hell... even a sports team... and the hugs and crying happen with no problem. There's a brotherhood amongst men that I have seen firsthand since going through my own turmoil in life. Men came out of the woodwork to help me. If there was any "Red pill" moment, it came from women telling me to suck it up and realize that there are a lot of evil women out there and I need to stop being so damn nice all the time. "You need to be more of an a-hole... women like that. Trust me." - the secretary at work.

So there are a lot of different things being brought up here, and I've written about just about all of them over the years. I can only tell you what my own personal experience was and that of the countless men that email me and visit my website:

1. They have been told by nearly everyone with authority, women included, to cool it with the "manly" stuff. The key is to be more sensitive. Everything else is for neanderthals. Boys are told to shut the F up. Boys are given lessons on keeping their hands to themselves. Boys are told how to be gentlemen at the dance. Boys are taught how to get consent at every moment of the mating game (the current norm). The general theme is, "You have inherent violence and evil within you... You need to learn to keep that turned down as much as possible."

2. This "soft" theme permeates all avenues of their life, and they are left with no sense of "boundaries". They become the quintessential "nice guy" (who actually isn't that nice - but instead a butthurt man who doesn't get the sex he so richly "DESERVES"). 

3. They hang their sense of self on the shoulders of the women (probably just one woman) in their life. They worship them. The women are a beacon of nice and sweet in a world that routinely dumps on them. The women, of course, become resentful of the role as their psychological "boss". Since they are a super-duper "nice guy", they attract the wrong kind of women. The women inevitably hurt them. The men then go online and complain. Some end up on my site. For the record, I don't tolerate "red/blue pill" discussion. It's borderline retarded.

That is, in essence, the bulk of your red pill community. If there's toxicity in masculinity, it was born out of feelings of shame and guilt. It has been hammered into their head over and over "BAD BOY! BAD! DON'T DO THAT!" Eventually, it takes a toll. All they want is love and acceptance. Then they see the jock get the girl. "But...I thought sensitive and nice wins?!" "Ssssh... just be yourself, dork." Then they marry a woman who actually likes them. Eureka! Then they have no sex for several years. "Ssssh... don't be such a dirtbag. That's just how marriage is." Then their wife leaves them for the guy with the neck tattoo and a criminal record. "Hey... women like excitement. You're too boring. Duh." Their head is spinning.

As others have pointed out, for many of these men this is a sort of "awakening" that ironically drives them further into strange female worship. Everything they say and do is to get women. They won't admit it, but it is. Eventually, they calm down and all is right in the world again. They marry again. They learn to toughen up and be more of a well-rounded man that everyone appreciates. 

Then they hear that the problem with our male-dominated society is "toxic masculinity" and they get ticked all over again.

That's my two cents.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> “Toxic masculinity” may be the gender equivalent of “toxic blackness.” We can ask what changes black people need to make so that white people won’t fear them.


I think it's just a term that was trying to express a portion of our population that is either ignored or covered up for by other men. Because for whatever reason, idk. Similarity, there are issues that impact men that are done to men by women that are ignored or covered up by women. That would be the equivalent so we can call that toxic feminism if you like. Some people seem hell bent on twisting our words so they dont hear anyone. Sense you brought it up, kneeling during the anthem was about police brutality, which is ignored or covered up. The message was instantly twisted into something it was never about. 

Nobody is saying all men are bad. They are begging us to be better. Good men, no matter how good they are, can become better men. By exposing the rotten among us. This has nothing to do with drinking a beer with your hand in your pants on the couch asking peggy to bring you the remote. Has nothing to do with golfing with your buddies and growing a beard. Pumping iron and eating steaks. 

Here's a question, why do you feel attacked when someone calls out bad behavior in men if you aren't doing the bad behaviors yourself? Because if you aren't doing any of that stuff they are talking about, well then they aren't talking about you are they? If I call out bad behavior in women, most women on this site aren't going to suddenly call me a woman hating jerkoff. Most of them say "yeah I hate *****es like that too" and that's all this is.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > “Toxic masculinity” may be the gender equivalent of “toxic blackness.” We can ask what changes black people need to make so that white people won’t fear them.
> ...


I doubt most women would appreciate men lumping together a bunch of stereotypical negative traits and calling it “toxic femininity” or “toxic feminism.” They’d probably call that misogynistic.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

CraigBesuden said:


> I doubt most women would appreciate men lumping together a bunch of stereotypical negative traits and calling it “toxic femininity” or “toxic feminism.” They’d probably call that misogynistic.


Which means they aren't listening to what we are saying.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> CraigBesuden said:
> 
> 
> > I doubt most women would appreciate men lumping together a bunch of stereotypical negative traits and calling it “toxic femininity” or “toxic feminism.” They’d probably call that misogynistic.
> ...


Right. But we are listening! We love men.

I don’t like the term toxic men (as I’ve mentioned about other terms) but what is a better one? How do good men describe bad people (gender neutral) to each other? What words or names would you use?


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

dadstartingover said:


> Yeah, gonna have to respectfully disagree with the premise here.
> 
> I have found that amongst men, the concept of being open and vulnerable is not an issue. Get a group of men in a rehab or treatment group of some kind, or hell... even a sports team... and the hugs and crying happen with no problem. There's a brotherhood amongst men that I have seen firsthand since going through my own turmoil in life. Men came out of the woodwork to help me. If there was any "Red pill" moment, it came from women telling me to suck it up and realize that there are a lot of evil women out there and I need to stop being so damn nice all the time. "You need to be more of an a-hole... women like that. Trust me." - the secretary at work.
> 
> ...


Well l like what you said.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. But we are listening! We love men.
> 
> I don’t like the term toxic men (as I’ve mentioned about other terms) but what is a better one? How do good men describe bad people (gender neutral) to each other? What words or names would you use?


I don't mind it. When my son is playing Xbox with his friends and they start bullying my son says "you guys are being toxic. That's toxic." Sometimes he will say it several times then he's like "I'll play with you later when you're not being toxic" and he shuts it down and goes to do something else. I think that is wonderful! 

So I'm on this fear kick. When you are creating more, its like injecting your own fears into everyone else. It's like a poison. From there, the person who is on the receiving end is filled with fear. Then they inject these or their own fears into another. And so the poison spreads and spreads and spreads. It has spread so far we can't even talk to each other anymore. But that is literally the only way to release the poison. It will take another to pull it out of you and free you from this fear. We cant do it ourselves. Except now we cant even talk! So we are without any means of trying to control this toxic substance inside all of us. We all see it. We see it in each other. We see it when we look in the mirror. We see it on TV. We see it literally everywhere and because we cant even talk all we can do is point at it. "That's toxic right there" and that's basically all we have right now. 

Further, there's probably a few people who can truly articulate the messages. But those aren't the people we are hearing. We are hearing the loud, obnoxious people screeching. And the problem is not enough people are going "hey, you dont get to be our spokes person anymore because what YOU are saying has nothing to do with the message at all!" Because they are "on our side" so we just let them stand at the podium, and inject their own fear into the message. And that poison is sent into me. Amd I respond back with my own. The cycle continues. 

God is described as a still, small voice. Maybe should shut off all the noise and see if we can hear the still small voices among us who are capable of delivering the message we need to hear.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right. But we are listening! We love men.
> 
> I don’t like the term toxic men (as I’ve mentioned about other terms) but what is a better one? How do good men describe bad people (gender neutral) to each other? What words or names would you use?


I call them *******s.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> My wife has told me that she stopped getting hugs from her dad around the age of 12. She understands why but it still hurt her.


My dad has never really hugged me (except in those moments where we would greet each-other if I was leaving home) but under normal conditions, he would not hug or caress me because that was just his type. He was never a romantic or touchy - feely man even with mom because that was just him.

I never took it personal...., but I've always dreamt of having a dad to treat his little girl like a princess.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I keep wanting to answer this question :
No, because there is no such thing, but,
I have worn cargo shorts.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I don't mind it. When my son is playing Xbox with his friends and they start bullying my son says "you guys are being toxic. That's toxic." Sometimes he will say it several times then he's like "I'll play with you later when you're not being toxic" and he shuts it down and goes to do something else. I think that is wonderful!
> 
> So I'm on this fear kick. When you are creating more, its like injecting your own fears into everyone else. It's like a poison. From there, the person who is on the receiving end is filled with fear. Then they inject these or their own fears into another. And so the poison spreads and spreads and spreads. It has spread so far we can't even talk to each other anymore. But that is literally the only way to release the poison. It will take another to pull it out of you and free you from this fear. We cant do it ourselves. Except now we cant even talk! So we are without any means of trying to control this toxic substance inside all of us. We all see it. We see it in each other. We see it when we look in the mirror. We see it on TV. We see it literally everywhere and because we cant even talk all we can do is point at it. "That's toxic right there" and that's basically all we have right now.
> 
> ...


Do you meditate or do yoga?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Marduk said:


> Do you meditate or do yoga?


Nah, I do drugs. 0


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Nah, I do drugs. 0




Think about it.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Marduk said:


> Think about it.


I used to work at a RadioShack in a strip mall. Right next door was a yoga studio. The women I saw coming and going... wow! That's about as deep of thought I've put into yoga. I dont know if ADHD folks are capable of meditating. Seems like a tall order to shut this brain off my friend. That's what the drugs are for.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Spare me this tired argument. You see it as all things, that's your own insecurity. You need to work that out yourself. I see what people are talking about. I just think women contribute more than they realize. The sins of our fathers....


Dude....why are you ripping on this guy for telling the truth? You're the one with the hangup and issues.......


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I used to work at a RadioShack in a strip mall. Right next door was a yoga studio. The women I saw coming and going... wow! That's about as deep of thought I've put into yoga. I dont know if ADHD folks are capable of meditating. Seems like a tall order to shut this brain off my friend. That's what the drugs are for.



Go. 

Trust me.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Betrayedone said:


> Dude....why are you ripping on this guy for telling the truth? You're the one with the hangup and issues.......


We all have issues. I see myself on equal ground personally. :wink2: it's just on a different hill.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I used to work at a RadioShack in a strip mall. Right next door was a yoga studio. The women I saw coming and going... wow! That's about as deep of thought I've put into yoga. I dont know if ADHD folks are capable of meditating. Seems like a tall order to shut this brain off my friend. That's what the drugs are for.


Do a search for ADHD and meditation and see what you think. Meditation isn't a magical cure, but it does teach you how to calm your thoughts and disassociate from them. It's like instead of riding a bucking horse, you can stand outside the paddock and calmly watch him run around. It can help you not feel so tied to your thoughts and that they are controlling you.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> God is described as a still, small voice. Maybe should shut off all the noise and see if we can hear the still small voices among us who are capable of delivering the message we need to hear.


This is meditation.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

wilson said:


> Do a search for ADHD and meditation and see what you think. Meditation isn't a magical cure, but it does teach you how to calm your thoughts and disassociate from them. It's like instead of riding a bucking horse, you can stand outside the paddock and calmly watch him run around. It can help you not feel so tied to your thoughts and that they are controlling you.


Thanks. I might check it out. I tried working on lucid dreaming for a while one year. Boy was that a failure. My cousin told me to ask myself "am I dreaming?" Every time I passed through a doorway. The idea is it becomes like muscle memory. Until one day in your dream you will pass through a door and instinctively ask the question. Then realize you are dreaming. At which point you wake up. But with practice you can stay in the dream and sort of control things. Talks about looking at a clock because times will always change and be random so that's another way you can tell you are dreaming if it's hard to tell at first. I've only noticed myself in a dream twice. Both times I woke up after I realized what was going on. It's a strange feeling to be aware that you are dreaming.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is meditation.


Well I mean like shut off social media and news and such and go into the communities. As Simon and Garfunkel said "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls"


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well I mean like shut off social media and news and such and go into the communities. As Simon and Garfunkel said "The words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls"


Right, so meditation is kind of like that. There are voices in your head all the time (true for all of us), and after you sit for a bit and work at it, you begin to shut them off, the same way you shut off social media and the news, and eventually you DO actually hear the still, small voice of God. Other wild things can happen, too.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Thanks. I might check it out. I tried working on lucid dreaming for a while one year. Boy was that a failure. My cousin told me to ask myself "am I dreaming?" Every time I passed through a doorway. The idea is it becomes like muscle memory. Until one day in your dream you will pass through a door and instinctively ask the question. Then realize you are dreaming. At which point you wake up. But with practice you can stay in the dream and sort of control things. Talks about looking at a clock because times will always change and be random so that's another way you can tell you are dreaming if it's hard to tell at first. I've only noticed myself in a dream twice. Both times I woke up after I realized what was going on. It's a strange feeling to be aware that you are dreaming.


I have lucid dreams pretty much as a norm. I dont really sleep any other way. 

In my case, it was probably due to a bit of brain damage, but i did notice something... 

If i took a fairly high dose of melatonin(25mg or so) and then took stimulants right as i fell asleep(i did this to prevent cluster headaches) i would wake up with sleep paralysis. Sleep paralysis might as well be called dreaming while conscious. If i calm myself down during sleep paralysis and start day dreaming, i slip into a lucid dream. 

Nowadays, every time i sleep i have lucid dreams.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> I have lucid dreams pretty much as a norm. I dont really sleep any other way.
> 
> In my case, it was probably due to a bit of brain damage, but i did notice something...
> 
> ...


That's nuts man. Both times I realized I was in a dream it was an "oh ****!" moment. Woke right up. I fall a lot in my dreams and get that sensation. I sort of enjoy it.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

As'laDain said:


> I have lucid dreams pretty much as a norm. I dont really sleep any other way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Used to happen to me quite a bit as a kid. 

Was terrifying.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I used to work at a RadioShack in a strip mall. Right next door was a yoga studio. The women I saw coming and going... wow! That's about as deep of thought I've put into yoga. I dont know if ADHD folks are capable of meditating. Seems like a tall order to shut this brain off my friend. That's what the drugs are for.


I think we are capable of of it. Do you have a tendency to hyper-focus on things you are interested in? Can you spend hours focusing on something that fascinates you? Or entertains you? 

That is the other side of ADHD. Whenever i try to meditate, i try to feel that feeling... the intense focus... 

It usually works if i can get away from distractions.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Marduk said:


> Used to happen to me quite a bit as a kid.
> 
> Was terrifying.


It happened to me several times a night, every night. Eventually, it wasn't scary anymore. It took several months. Probably about 500 times or so before i learned to lucid dream on a regular basis.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> I think we are capable of of it. Do you have a tendency to hyper-focus on things you are interested in? Can you spend hours focusing on something that fascinates you? Or entertains you?
> 
> That is the other side of ADHD. Whenever i try to meditate, i try to feel that feeling... the intense focus...
> 
> It usually works if i can get away from distractions.


Hyper focus but easily side tracked, then I get back on point. It's a battle. Like trying to write this story. My mind races with ideas and chapters and whatever pretty much all day. When I sit down and write it takes a while to get started. I can bang out paragraph after paragraph for about 2 hours once I get going. Then when I take a break I'm back to thinking about everything but it's hard to start writing again. 

I backpack. When I do, by body goes into autopilot. I dont even realize how far I've gone or how long ive been moving. I go into like a trance almost except my mind is still racing. It's just my body that moves. Theres been times I've walked right past vistas and trail junctions just off in space, no clue where I am.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Hyper focus but easily side tracked, then I get back on point. It's a battle. Like trying to write this story. My mind races with ideas and chapters and whatever pretty much all day. When I sit down and write it takes a while to get started. I can bang out paragraph after paragraph for about 2 hours once I get going. Then when I take a break I'm back to thinking about everything but it's hard to start writing again.
> 
> I backpack. When I do, by body goes into autopilot. I dont even realize how far I've gone or how long ive been moving. I go into like a trance almost except my mind is still racing. It's just my body that moves. Theres been times I've walked right past vistas and trail junctions just off in space, no clue where I am.


My mind races all the time. The racing isnt bad... i just need more aspects to think of that are related to the topic at hand. 

Here is an example, if you can get through reading it....


my ramblings on algae... - General Discussion - NANFA Forum

Use the racing thoughts to examine the topic of your focus.


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## hptessla (Jun 4, 2019)

As'laDain said:


> I think we are capable of of it. Do you have a tendency to hyper-focus on things you are interested in? Can you spend hours focusing on something that fascinates you? Or entertains you?
> 
> That is the other side of ADHD. Whenever i try to meditate, i try to feel that feeling... the intense focus...
> 
> It usually works if i can get away from distractions.


I have been attempting meditation for about 5 months. My biggest problem now is that I end up falling asleep at times, but that's not a bad thing. One helpful thing was learning that when my mind drifts I don't have to get into that thing of chasing it back and then trying to hold onto it so it doesn't wander again. Apparently it's fine to let it wander and then sort of gently bring it back. Most recently I have been focusing on steering the wandering away from running through 'solution' type scenarios or worrying about what I have to do next. With regard to all that type of stuff it appears that it's also OK to have days where you just aren't 'getting' it. From what I've read/listened to it's most important to stick with it (I do 15 minutes and am told that even when I'm not 'getting it' I should do the 15 minutes. No longer or shorter. I have noticed over the months that I am better at it and also whether I actually am better at it or not I'm getting some results from it.

So it's not as great as I had hoped it would quickly be but it is doing something. It's also ok to ignore some advice if it doesn't work for you, try something different. For instance I sometimes get more out of it while walking outdoors with my eyes open than with being in a quiet, unlit room. I don't know if I have ADHD, never mattered to me, but my kid's pediatrician looked at me and said "wonder where he gets THAT from" when we had to go to her to get his Concerta prescription for his. That would make sense as far as my learning curve as far as meditating.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I meditate best with something specific to listen to. Such as a fan running, or a YouTube meditation vid running. After a bit, I can hyper focus on the sounds and drop my usual mental dialogue. After about 15 minutes I am in a new state of consciousness. It varies between deeply relaxed and straight up wayyyyyy out in space somewhere.

There are lots of YouTube meditation guided vids. And some that are just sounds. Some of my faves are just gongs and chimes.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6QTdvbu0uI

This one is 3 hours long and that’s too long for meditation but I can fall asleep with this one, meditating my way down.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

I love where this thread went. :grin2: 

This is exactly how ADHD brain works. Get side tracked and then we are off on some other stuff entirely. Freaking hilarious! Sometimes you go so far down these side treks you forget how you got there and what you were even doing before. 

"What was I supposed to be doing? How did I end up here? Oh that's right. Why can't i focus? Ugh, what is wrong with me!?"

We kick ourselves for this stuff. It's a real self esteem killer.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> I have lucid dreams pretty much as a norm. I dont really sleep any other way.
> 
> In my case, it was probably due to a bit of brain damage, but i did notice something...
> 
> ...


Are you still having Cluster headaches? I'm very familiar with the disorder. Pm me if you need help or information.


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

Maybe it's a regional thing or maybe I'm oblivious. My college age son still likes to hold hands with me and his mother when we walk. Perhaps people are looking at us funny, but if they are, I've never noticed it.

Most of the women I know, even the woke college age ones, like to hug as a hello and goodbye thing. I'm not really a hugger, so that makes me mildly uncomfortable.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I hope I'm doing a good job raising my son. 

Even though I grew up in a very touchy, no personal space kind of environment (Hispanic) my dad is not into expressing his love with hugs or kisses. I thought every household had the same dynamics.

I met my husband and he's the opposite. He's very expressive of his love and he's always touching me or the kids, hugging us, kissing us. He cuddles with our 10 year old son and they have a very good relationship and a very strong bond. This is something I didn't see happening between my dad and my brother.

My son likes hugs and kisses too, but at the same time he's not affectionate if he's at school or in a public place. 

I find it very hard to raise a boy now a days. 

Sometimes I worry more about my son than my 8 year old daughter. From my conversations with other mom's, we agree that boys are a lot more sensitive than girls. Their feelings get hurt a lot easier than girls, and that is very confusing at least for me since I grew up with an image that boys don't cry, boys are not sensitive, boys are not affectionate. Now I kinda realized why my younger brother needed more help and attention than my older sister and I. He is a lot more sensitive and affectionate than us.

The hard part is how to guide my son through all these stereotypes or toxic ideas and how he can protect himself from them. 

Sometimes parenting makes me feel I'm walking through a mine field. I don't know which way I'm going, and I'm hoping I don't step on the wrong spot and blow up my kids lives!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

pastasauce79 said:


> Are you still having Cluster headaches? I'm very familiar with the disorder. Pm me if you need help or information.


Yes, i still get them, but they are well managed. Hopefully, that doesn't change. I have been on Clusterheadaches.com since about 2011? Something like that. Im a lefty, and chronic.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

FalCod said:


> Maybe it's a regional thing or maybe I'm oblivious. My college age son still likes to hold hands with me and his mother when we walk. Perhaps people are looking at us funny, but if they are, I've never noticed it.
> 
> Most of the women I know, even the woke college age ones, like to hug as a hello and goodbye thing. I'm not really a hugger, so that makes me mildly uncomfortable.


This thread highlights my own insecurities more than anything. I'm extremely worried what people think. It's something I really need to work on.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

As'laDain said:


> Yes, i still get them, but they are well managed. Hopefully, that doesn't change. I have been on Clusterheadaches.com since about 2011? Something like that. Im a lefty, and chronic.


I'm glad you got them under control. CH.com, clusterbusters and a FB group got us a lot of info. My husband is the sufferer. He's getting out of his summer cluster right now. He's episodic, lefty as well.


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## FalCod (Dec 6, 2017)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> This thread highlights my own insecurities more than anything. I'm extremely worried what people think. It's something I really need to work on.


I won't judge you for it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

pastasauce79 said:


> I'm glad you got them under control. CH.com, clusterbusters and a FB group got us a lot of info. My husband is the sufferer. He's getting out of his summer cluster right now. He's episodic, lefty as well.


Im sorry to hear he suffers from them. I wouldn't wish the beast on my worst enemy...


I have been dealing with them since 2009. Back then, it was 6 to 8 attacks a day. Taurine and caffeine helped(kinda like slamming a redbull), hence why i would take a pill of each right when the melatonin started working, which led to the sleep paralysis and learning to lucid dream. 

Nowadays, i bust with RC seeds amd stick to a mostly keto diet. Between the two, i rarely have to take imitrex injections anymore. And i was able to get off the verapamil and lithium. Those drugs were destroying me...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I used to work at a RadioShack in a strip mall. Right next door was a yoga studio. The women I saw coming and going... wow! That's about as deep of thought I've put into yoga. I dont know if ADHD folks are capable of meditating. Seems like a tall order to shut this brain off my friend. That's what the drugs are for.


🤣🤣 meditation is about the only way to calm a mind constantly striving. 
Take the energy and direct it to something useful.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

red oak said:


> 🤣🤣 meditation is about the only way to calm a mind constantly striving.
> Take the energy and direct it to something useful.


Oh, I know of a couple others 0


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

This thread keeps reminding me of a recent discussion I read.
Men have a reason to be concerned. 

Discussion of parents (almost all women. Women were complaining men wouldnt really get involved) from a local small school wanting a special board meeting. 

Basically, although they didn't see it, there were 2 sides.

Mothers of the girls were mad because girls were being called out for violating dress code by wearing short-shorts, ripped Jean's, or extremely tight leggings with short shirts. 
One parent was livid because a female teacher told her daughter she shouldn't be wearing such tight leggings due to her having"very" pronounced and "obvious" toe not leaving anything to the imagination (a man couldn't have done so without facing possible charges). And now her daughter has been traumatized with body shaming. 
Body shaming is what most of the parents, whose daughters were called out on violations, were calling it.
Some were going so far as to go to the school and surreptitiously take pictures of other people's kids in an attempt to get their own kids violations removed. 

The mother's were told the way the girls were dressing was disruptive for the boys learning so they started blaming it on the boys.
Which led to the discussion women should be able to wear anything, or nothing without drawing the attention of a male unless she asked for the attention. 
Basically "toxic " masculinity.

On the otherside: Parents of boys in school were concerned because some of the girls were threatening boys with rape accusations, for different things.
Couple examples: boys talking to the girl if she didn't want him to: And try to get the boys to do what they wanted.
One girl already made an accusation she was almost raped at the school, and had her clothes ripped in the process yet there was no camera footage or other proof. The parent of that girl didn't care there was no proof. According to her, (the parent), the men in the school were covering it up. 
None of the mothers of the girls who were getting code violations seemed to have an issue with the threat of false allegations. 

The superintendent is a male so he is being alluded to as a pervert otherwise he wouldn't even notice how they were dressed, or even be concerned with the female dress code. Yet many of the call outs on violations has been by female staff. Legally in this state it's risky for a male teacher to call a female student on such a violation as "to look upon" in such a way is considered a crime if worded improperly. 

What I see in all the politics is men being blamed for the issue and the women getting the free princess pass.

Reminds me of why a male teacher in Canada, and one of the reasons a male friend of mine, who was a teacher, quit. As they say, a man is either, blind, or likes living risky to teach school. Even a female shrink friend of mine quit working with female students over 20 years ago because of the risk.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Which is why we homeschooled our kids. I always think of that quote from the movie "Wargames"...."The best move is to not play the game at all".

Safer to keep you kids (especially boys) away from the mess that is most school systems. 



red oak said:


> This thread keeps reminding me of a recent discussion I read.
> Men have a reason to be concerned.
> 
> Discussion of parents (almost all women. Women were complaining men wouldnt really get involved) from a local small school wanting a special board meeting.
> ...


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Numb26 said:


> Which is why we homeschooled our kids. I always think of that quote from the movie "Wargames"...."The best move is to not play the game at all".
> 
> Safer to keep you kids (especially boys) away from the mess that is most school systems.


Much safer to homeschool. 
If I had it to do over none of mine would have stepped foot in a public school. 

Amazes me how much worse it has gotten in the last 15 years.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

red oak said:


> This thread keeps reminding me of a recent discussion I read.
> Men have a reason to be concerned.
> 
> Discussion of parents (almost all women. Women were complaining men wouldnt really get involved) from a local small school wanting a special board meeting.
> ...


The pendulum swings. Penn State, Baylor, Dallas Mavericks, catholic church, Weinstein, Podesta, Epstein ... endless other examples. If men weren't covering up wrong doings for other men for so long, there would be no reason for anyone to question our motives and intentions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it's the bed men have made for themselves. Hard to believe some people can't see that is the case.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The pendulum swings. Penn State, Baylor, Dallas Mavericks, catholic church, Weinstein, Podesta, Epstein ... endless other examples. If men weren't covering up wrong doings for other men for so long, there would be no reason for anyone to question our motives and intentions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it's the bed men have made for themselves. Hard to believe some people can't see that is the case.


Thank you for having the balls to even type this here. Our history was full of this and we are only just now beginning to realize it and try to stamp it out. It goes slowly because so many still don’t want to see it.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

It's a scary time to be a man that's for sure. 

I was hospitalized this past week with a very serious infection in my breast. I had to show it to no less than 50 people during my admission. EVERY single male brought a female chaperone with him to examine me while all the women just lifted up my shirt and examined me alone. It never even entered the female practitioners' minds that I might accuse them of something but every guy was well aware of the risk.

Men are now living in fear just like women have done for a millennia. Not of the same thing of course, but fear is fear.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The pendulum swings. Penn State, Baylor, Dallas Mavericks, catholic church, Weinstein, Podesta, Epstein ... endless other examples. If men weren't covering up wrong doings for other men for so long, there would be no reason for anyone to question our motives and intentions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it's the bed men have made for themselves. Hard to believe some people can't see that is the case.


I'm not a pendulum respecter even though I have observed it.

I've also never endorsed crappy behavior and cover ups are terrible. False accusations also harm real victims.

I believe in busting bad behavior chops wherever they occur.

I also absolutely refuse to put up with any bias against my maleness especially if an idiot tries to accuse me of sexual malfeasance of any sort.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Thank you for having the balls to even type this here. Our history was full of this and we are only just now beginning to realize it and try to stamp it out. It goes slowly because so many still don’t want to see it.


Well I have to say something else on this. It's mostly men who covered stuff up, but it was never only men. For every 10 Weinstein's and Bill Clinton's, there's a Meryl Streep and Hillary who turned a blind eye just the same and made millions and millions by doing so. Then they want to lecture others on this stuff. What word would you use to describe these women?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not a pendulum respecter even though I have observed it.
> 
> I've also never endorsed crappy behavior and cover ups are terrible. False accusations also harm real victims.
> 
> ...


I don't want innocent people hurt either and I understand how you feel on the last sentence. Ignore the noise. You know who and what you are. Continue to live it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Well I have to say something else on this. It's mostly men who covered stuff up, but it was never only men. For every 10 Weinstein's and Bill Clinton's, there's a Meryl Streep and Hillary who turned a blind eye just the same and made millions and millions by doing so. Then they want to lecture others on this stuff. What word would you use to describe these women?


Sorry, I’m not going to get into that with you, because you seem a little edgy and sometimes that ends up with you getting aggressive. 

But I have talked about these issues on the other thread in the rape culture discussion. You can see those posts if you sincerely want to know how I feel. Rape culture is not a “man” problem it is a human problem.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sorry, I’m not going to get into that with you, because you seem a little edgy and sometimes that ends up with you getting aggressive.
> 
> But I have talked about these issues on the other thread in the rape culture discussion. You can see those posts if you sincerely want to know how I feel. Rape culture is not a “man” problem it is a human problem.


Not edgy at all actually. I apologize again for giving you fair and just reason to give pause with me on here. :crying:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Not edgy at all actually. I apologize again for giving you fair and just reason to give pause with me on here. :crying:


Hugs!!


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

So I just opened the next bag of boxes and envelopes for the next run of deliveries. One of them is a big box of Gillett razors. Bahhhahahhaha! :grin2: I swear man. You guys ever notice God is always trolling us? Maybe it's just me. I think that stuff is his way of saying "bro, settle down a bit" lmao.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> The pendulum swings. Penn State, Baylor, Dallas Mavericks, catholic church, Weinstein, Podesta, Epstein ... endless other examples. If men weren't covering up wrong doings for other men for so long, there would be no reason for anyone to question our motives and intentions. Is it fair? Maybe not, but it's the bed men have made for themselves. Hard to believe some people can't see that is the case.


Sometimes i feel like we(military) are living in a completely different world. More specifically, combat arms. I have been in combat positions for most of my career. I took a two year break to learn arabic and a new MOS. 

Is this the bed that men have made for themselves? Maybe so... im not going to argue that it isnt. 

But i have very different priorities. A complaint about someone seeming creepy doesn't set me off as much as a report that someone doesn't know their job. I will certainly address a complaint about someone being a creeper, but ill get downright annoying if i hear that someone doesn't know how to do the things that will keep them alive down range. 

Jeremy griffin was the 58th person i have known since joining who died in combat. He used to be a signals intelligence analyst.. a SOT-B. I am a SOT-A. i didn't know him as well as my team sergeant, but i did know him pretty well. 

Im not sure how to reconcile all this. For 12 years, all i have cared about is making sure my people come back alive. And i have never lost a single one that was in my charge. And then i come home and suddenly life isnt about surviving anymore, and i feel like i must have somehow failed somewhere. 

Because there are issues that i didn't even know about, and i find myself kicking myself because i didn't even know about them. 

It often feels like i am in the twilight zone. 

Regardless, im still trying to learn.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

I train with knives, a lot. Its a regular thing for me. Im pretty good with knives. I have been practicing since i was twelve, and its kind of a form of meditation for me. 

Is this toxic masculinity?


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> Sometimes i feel like we(military) are living in a completely different world. More specifically, combat arms. I have been in combat positions for most of my career. I took a two year break to learn arabic and a new MOS.
> 
> Is this the bed that men have made for themselves? Maybe so... im not going to argue that it isnt.
> 
> ...



I have zero opinion on what you do. I have no idea at all. All I know is I will argue with someone until we are both on the verge of exchanging blows, but push comes to shove I'm a pacifist. I will always walk away, even if that means accepting defeat. 

I'm forever grateful for those who risk their lives to protect my family and loved ones. I have major problems with war and conflict however. It's just against everything inside of me. Necessary to take out like chemical terrorists and similar. I understand. I can't help but question the motives of other things however. That's not a judgement of anyone told to do a job, but it's something I don't know how someone like you reconciles I'll be honest. 

There's a story I heard about I want to say seal team. I know it was SF group. They had a target and got bad intel. The leader is on the phone saying "look we got bad intel, I know what I'm looking at. We are going to back off and fomulate a new plan" and his commander was screaming at him to just do his job. So the Seal (I think it was) said that he couldn't hear him it was breaking up. 

So his CG or CO or whatever was ready to just send them all in to their deaths. The squad leader made the decision, f*** what he was being told. Saved his men's lives. I hear a story like that, and many stories similar to that and I just don't see how you can do what you do. But its more than just that. 

Cut from a different cloth is all it is I guess. There's this side of my brain that is thankful, and this other side that wishes you didn't do what you do, you know? But something you said before does help and that is those guys are your family and thats why you signed back up. You have to protect your family, which that point is driven home even further by this post I'm replying to. 

I'm not sure a civilian has the full capacity to understand. We just don't. Which is strange you receive all these "thank you for your service" remarks from people who might be struggling like I am with it all, you know? And deep down, you have to know this in your heart, so the Thanks you get, I don't know how I would feel about them in your shoes. Its tough man. Its tough on both sides I think.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Btw, my grandfather on my Dad's side was LtCol Air force, was US army Air Corp when he enlisted. One of my earliest memories in life is his funeral.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> I have zero opinion on what you do. I have no idea at all. All I know is I will argue with someone until we are both on the verge of exchanging blows, but push comes to shove I'm a pacifist. I will always walk away, even if that means accepting defeat.
> 
> I'm forever grateful for those who risk their lives to protect my family and loved ones. I have major problems with war and conflict however. It's just against everything inside of me. Necessary to take out like chemical terrorists and similar. I understand. I can't help but question the motives of other things however. That's not a judgement of anyone told to do a job, but it's something I don't know how someone like you reconciles I'll be honest.
> 
> ...


Whenever people thank me, i always think the same thing. "What the hell are you thanking me for? If you have never served, then you have no idea what I'm about, and if you have, then you know full well that i don't do it for you". 

We are soldiers. We will go and do what we are told. We WILL accomplish our mission, but what we really worry about is each other. 

It really is a strange transition when we come home. In war, the guy in my unit who hates me the most will still die for me, and i him. Its just a given. 

On the way home thursday, i saw a traffic jam... a whole bunch of people were slowly driving by a shirtless teenage boy and an object on the road. When i got to him, i finally saw that the object was a dog. I rolled my window down and heard the kid crying for help. I pulled over, and then the guy behind me pulled over. I assessed the dog(it had been hit), treated it for major bleeding with a pressure dressing, and determined that it would most likely survive if it got to a vet fairly soon. Its airway was clear and most of the damage was to the left side of its face, front left leg, and snout. The guy behind me put the dog and the kid in the back of his truck and took him to the nearest vet. 

Both of us were soldiers. Nobody else stopped to help. 

That's our mindset. 

We care a lot, we can't pass by when someone is in trouble and we can help. 

When we see all this crap about toxic masculinity, it seems foreign. Like, WTF foreign. It doesn't make any sense.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> Whenever people thank me, i always think the same thing. "What the hell are you thanking me for? If you have never served, then you have no idea what I'm about, and if you have, then you know full well that i don't do it for you".
> 
> We are soldiers. We will go and do what we are told. We WILL accomplish our mission, but what we really worry about is each other.
> 
> ...


But everything you describe has nothing to do with toxic masculinity. There's certain behaviors in men that are generally way more common in men than women. Destructive behavior that is passed on to their kids and their kid's kids and so forth. Similar to how an abused kid often turns out to be an abuser themselves. Similar to the bully at school who gets all of that from his father at home every night when he is abused. 

The thing is there's a female version of incels. And they spread their nonsense into a message that they have no place in. And incels with a penis are cast away like the scum they are, but for some reason people care what incels with vaginas say. Don't know why, but I think its just how the pendulum swings. It happens in lots of areas in life. Humans are just into the wild overreactions and overcorrections. It's jist what we do. So we were so far to one side, that it has is now and I believe it will continue to swing in the other direction so far so that the people who are fighting injustices, will end up becoming the exact thing they were fighting in the beginning. Just from the opposite side this time. It's just how things end up working it seems. 

Be who you are, live as best as you can. Ignore the noise and try to observe more than react. This was a hard lesson for me. I'm much happier when I don't react. I think that is true for most people. That doesn't mean be apathetic, not at all. It just means that human nature is human nature and you can spend your entire life pissed off or depressed if you really want to. Or just accept it, and do your best to not get caught up in it all, and continue to provide service to others in whatever way you are best at doing it.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> But everything you describe has nothing to do with toxic masculinity. There's certain behaviors in men that are generally way more common in men than women. Destructive behavior that is passed on to their kids and their kid's kids and so forth. Similar to how an abused kid often turns out to be an abuser themselves. Similar to the bully at school who gets all of that from his father at home every night when he is abused.
> 
> The thing is there's a female version of incels. And they spread their nonsense into a message that they have no place in. And incels with a penis are cast away like the scum they are, but for some reason people care what incels with vaginas say. Don't know why, but I think its just how the pendulum swings. It happens in lots of areas in life. Humans are just into the wild overreactions and overcorrections. It's jist what we do. So we were so far to one side, that it has is now and I believe it will continue to swing in the other direction so far so that the people who are fighting injustices, will end up becoming the exact thing they were fighting in the beginning. Just from the opposite side this time. It's just how things end up working it seems.
> 
> Be who you are, live as best as you can. Ignore the noise and try to observe more than react. This was a hard lesson for me. I'm much happier when I don't react. I think that is true for most people. That doesn't mean be apathetic, not at all. It just means that human nature is human nature and you can spend your entire life pissed off or depressed if you really want to. Or just accept it, and do your best to not get caught up in it all, and continue to provide service to others in whatever way you are best at doing it.


You are starting to sound like a mystic. 

That is a good thing.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

As'laDain said:


> You are starting to sound like a mystic.
> 
> That is a good thing.


Must be the drugs. 0


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Be who you are, live as best as you can. Ignore the noise and try to observe more than react. This was a hard lesson for me. I'm much happier when I don't react. I think that is true for most people. That doesn't mean be apathetic, not at all. It just means that human nature is human nature and *you can spend your entire life pissed off or depressed if you really want to*. Or just accept it, and do your best to not get caught up in it all, and continue to provide service to others in whatever way you are best at doing it.


This is very Dr. Laura of you. (btw, not meant as an insult)

I was on a two day roadie and binge-listened to the ''Caller of the Day'' podcast. It's amazing the amount of people who voluntarily, and unnecessarily live the bolded part above. Once given a different perspective, some callers are almost flabbergasted and say, ''you mean I don't HAVE TO live like this??"


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