# Turning the other cheek - useless philosophy



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?

Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair. People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?

Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I get where you are coming from and I think tough love is always required in cases of infidelity, there have to be consequences too. Forgiveness is not about the aggressor it is about peace for the victim. I love the book by Dr James Dobson "love must be tough.' He states that often the christian advice to turn the other cheek causes havoc.

"It is my belief that the advice traditionally offered to victims of infidelity and other violations of trust has often been unbiblical and destructive. But obviously, not everyone will agree."


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If you are not, or do not profess to be a Christian, or a follower of Christ's teachings, then it is a useless philosophy!

"Forgiveness" is almost universal, at least from a Christian perspective; but "forgetting" about it is almost entirely a human characteristic! How else would we begin to learn from what has egregiously happened to us at the behest of others?

Like God, some Christians have the innate ability to both forgive and forget! Most of us, unfortunately, do not!*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Aside from religious beliefs, what's the logic of forgiveness?

This whole concept of forgiveness I find alien to me, for me it's one of the 3 things that I strongly believe people have to EARN, along with trust and respect. I use infidelity as it's the perfect example of how EARNED forgiveness and not unconditional forgiveness actually leads to any possible reconciliation for a married couple. The aggressor/cheater must first suffer the consequences of their actions so that they can understand the weight of what they have done.

If not it only encourages serial cheating. Aside from infidelity in all other walks of life this is applicable, disciplining my daughter for instance; if she doesn't face any consequences in her little mind she's keep taking things for granted, that's not just kid nature it's human nature. My ex-wife believes in forgiveness yet she also disciplines our daughter in the same fashion, but why preach unconditional forgiveness when earned forgiveness continues to prove the superior option?

Also any other personal relationship, as the saying goes, "forgive one insult you encourage the commission of many"


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I'm in agreement with your thoughts about cheaters who fly in the face of Gods commandments about fidelity. If they are not Christian, then their sins will likely not be forgiven!

If they are Christian per the New Covenant, then God will forgive and forget. But from the jilted spouses perspective, there is little solace in that other than the perpetrator has been forgiven!

From the ecclesiastical standpoint, we should be happy to see that their sin has been forgiven and to take God at His word; to lay that particular burden down off of our conscience to where we are better able to forgive and then move on!*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> If you are not, or do not profess to be a Christian, or a follower of Christ's teachings, then it is a useless philosophy!
> 
> "Forgiveness" is almost universal, at least from a Christian perspective; but "forgetting" about it is almost entirely a human characteristic! How else would we begin to learn from what has egregiously happened to us at the behest of others?
> 
> Like God, *some Christians have the innate ability to both forgive and forget*! Most of us, unfortunately, do not!


I don't know that anyone really forgets, at least not the big things. But some are able to put what was done in perspective.

My husband says that different people have different capabilities. It takes a lot of strength to be honest, for example. So not everyone may be capable of that. It takes a lot of maturity to be empathetic. Not everyone may be capable of that. 

It is important to get an idea of a person's character. If you think a person is a pretty good person overall, it may be worth it to you to accept his or her flaws and work through the issues. 

We also cannot forget that no one is without flaws. Whatever we may be upset about in a partner, that partner likely has their gripes about us, too.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes. 

Personally, I don't want to spend my life hanging on to the wrongs that have been done to me, nor do I care to prolong the drama for the sake of appeasing my hurt feelings. People can be stupid, selfish, and downright mean, but nothing I do is ever going to stop that. Just move on. 

That doesn't make me a doormat though. My husband cheats, he's out the door. I might forgive him in that I understand and not hold a grudge. But I won't trust him anymore. Or live with him. Or stay married.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

jld said:


> We also cannot forget that no one is without flaws. Whatever we may be upset about in a partner, that partner likely has their gripes about us, too.


Yes, this too. Forgiveness is recognizing that we are all too human. It's not like I've been such a saint or haven't also hurt people along the way. But instead of being judged as evil and having people ready to dig my eyes out, I would like to think that I can be forgiving for my stupid mistakes.

And so I also try to extend that courtesy to others.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

wild jade said:


> As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.
> 
> Personally, I don't want to spend my life hanging on to the wrongs that have been done to me, nor do I care to prolong the drama for the sake of appeasing my hurt feelings. People can be stupid, selfish, and downright mean, but nothing I do is ever going to stop that. Just move on.
> 
> That doesn't make me a doormat though. My husband cheats, he's out the door. I might forgive him in that I understand and not hold a grudge. But I won't trust him anymore. Or live with him. Or stay married.


I think Dug and I could work through an affair. If he wanted to, of course. 

Life is not black and white for most people. 

And Love is pretty powerful.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

wild jade said:


> As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.


Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray. 

Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray.
> 
> Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. *A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it*.


Glad to hear that. Because it sounds immoral.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

jld said:


> Glad to hear that. Because it sounds immoral.


That's because either you don't have the stomach for it or you've never been grievously wronged.

I wouldn't take revenge over petty bs, but over something that deeply affects me, my marriage, or my family? Have and would again in a heartbeat without losing sleep.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> That's because either you don't have the stomach for it or you've never been grievously wronged.
> 
> I wouldn't take revenge over petty bs, but over something that deeply affects me, my marriage, or my family? Have and would again in a heartbeat without losing sleep.


Sorry if that sounded harsh, MJJean. 

I just don't think revenge would bring me peace.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

ayayay



RandomDude said:


> I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?


When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?



> Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair.


Maybe if someone was just walking down the street and randomly ripped out your eye. Given you know nothing else about the circumstances, how could you say this? 



> People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?


This feels like trolling. Why fight revenge? Are you kidding me? I am sure that every instance of revenge that has ever occurs has always been just.



> Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!


So, the best course of action is having sex with someone else and then what? Divorce? Like they care that you had sex with someone else if you are going to divorce them anyway.

This entire post is completely rife with inaccuracies and misunderstandings...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Herschel said:


> ayayay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it would be helpful if you would elaborate, Herschel. You have brought up thought-provoking points.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

jld said:


> Sorry if that sounded harsh, MJJean.
> 
> I just don't think revenge would bring me peace.


No worries, JLD. I can be a harsh woman. There are people who fear me and​ with reason. There are people who know I'll walk through the fire for them. Two sides of the same coin.

When I said either you've never been grievously wronged or don't have the stomach for it I wasn't​ criticizing. If you've never been betrayed that deeply, you've been blessed. If you lack the stomach for it, it's just how you're wired. Our species is varied and that makes us interesting.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Herschel said:


> ayayay
> 
> When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?


It depends on the type of retaliation. If you were scammed, there may be a form of retaliation that allows you to recover your losses. 

But it's not even about getting back what you lost. Effective retaliation prevents the perpetrator from doing it again, either to you or to someone else. In that sense, there are times when retaliation (or punishment, or merely consequences if you prefer), is not only appropriate, but even a moral imperative. 

Retaliation for vengeance sake is pretty hollow, but when you set aside your personal grievance and look at the big picture; the "why" of the action independent of personal vestment rather than just blind tit-for-tat, there are times when turning the other cheek is the worst thing you can possibly do.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I remember when I felt that every perceived slight had to be answered, that no one could ever get the better of me and that it was necessary that I always come out "ahead". It got pretty exhausting.

But it's not that I've risen above getting revenge; I'm just far more selective about the hill I choose to die on (maybe literally). I have to admit though, I'm still working through applying that to traffic situations.

In the vast majority of cases, I'm okay with walking away.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It depends on the type of retaliation. If you were scammed, there may be a form of retaliation that allows you to recover your losses.
> 
> But it's not even about getting back what you lost. Effective retaliation prevents the perpetrator from doing it again, either to you or to someone else. In that sense, there are times when retaliation (or punishment, or merely consequences if you prefer), is not only appropriate, but even a moral imperative.
> 
> Retaliation for vengeance sake is pretty hollow, but when you set aside your personal grievance and look at the big picture; the "why" of the action independent of personal vestment rather than just blind tit-for-tat, there are times when turning the other cheek is the worst thing you can possibly do.


Let's be realistic here. This isn't a "turn the other cheek" when someone raped you or murdered a family member. There are laws, and we are to follow laws. Hell, if someone ripped out your eye, they should be arrested and prosecuted. Punishment is completely appropriate for law breakers. An eye for an eye is not.

Now, if you are talking Trading Places type of revenge, ok, I guess I can find something like that enjoyable. But that is a fringe case at best. Vengeance is hollow. And you've now dirtied your "soul" doing so. It take a much stronger person to not give into vengeance and let the law work itself out.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Let's be realistic here. This isn't a "turn the other cheek" when someone raped you or murdered a family member. There are laws, and we are to follow laws. Hell, if someone ripped out your eye, they should be arrested and prosecuted. Punishment is completely appropriate for law breakers. An eye for an eye is not.
> 
> Now, *if you are talking Trading Places type of revenge*, ok, I guess I can find something like that enjoyable. But that is a fringe case at best. Vengeance is hollow. And you've now dirtied your "soul" doing so. It take a much stronger person to not give into vengeance and let the law work itself out.


What is the bolded?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> Herschel said:
> 
> 
> > Let's be realistic here. This isn't a "turn the other cheek" when someone raped you or murdered a family member. There are laws, and we are to follow laws. Hell, if someone ripped out your eye, they should be arrested and prosecuted. Punishment is completely appropriate for law breakers. An eye for an eye is not.
> ...


It was a movie about revenge. It was a comedy, and a very good one. Totally unrealistic circumstances that would never happen.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> No worries, JLD. I can be a harsh woman. There are people who fear me and​ with reason. There are people who know I'll walk through the fire for them. Two sides of the same coin.
> 
> When I said either you've never been grievously wronged or don't have the stomach for it I wasn't​ criticizing. If you've never been betrayed that deeply, you've been blessed. If you lack the stomach for it, it's just how you're wired. Our species is varied and that makes us interesting.


You are right that I do not have the stomach for it, MJJean. But I also do not think it would get me where I would want to go long term.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

A lot of religions preach forgiveness because a cycle of revenge is so destructive. The problem is that people will never agree on the exact right amount of revenge and things often escalate. Feuds can continue and grow - a single crime breeds a long cycle of destruction that hurts both sides. 

I see it in people: I have two good friends who will never speak to each other again because of an increasing set (fortunately verbal only) of retaliations over an ugly, but very unclear situation. 

I see it in countries: The Shiite / Sunni wars in the middle east largely continue as each side seeks revenge from the crimes of the other.

Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland got to the point where people were throwing rocks at school children - until they finally realized that the great majority of the fight had to do with revenge.


At a personal level insisting on revenge means that you live in a world of enemies. When you take revenge on one person, their friends will almost always side with them against you. 

If your wife / husband cheats on you, then leave or forgive. Harboring anger is pointless, it just means you are living with someone you don't like.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Herschel said:


> Let's be realistic here. This isn't a "turn the other cheek" when someone raped you or murdered a family member. There are laws, and we are to follow laws. Hell, if someone ripped out your eye, they should be arrested and prosecuted. Punishment is completely appropriate for law breakers. An eye for an eye is not.
> 
> Now, if you are talking Trading Places type of revenge, ok, I guess I can find something like that enjoyable. But that is a fringe case at best. Vengeance is hollow. And you've now dirtied your "soul" doing so. It take a much stronger person to not give into vengeance and let the law work itself out.


Good post Herschel. We have laws to exact justice, without having the natural occurrence of mob justice / vengeance. But what happens when those laws are increasingly ignored, and groups of people are not brought to justice due to political power, money, etc? If the law won't punish the guilty, even when they are proven guilty, this fosters a resentment of the law, and a desire for exactly what RD is bringing up in the opening piece. Which, if allowed to go on long enough, will result in vigilantism, and individual acts of vengeance to achieve that justice.

I'd say Jeffrey Eppstein is a perfect example. Dead to rights. Guilty. Convicted. And then told that because he's wealthy prison would be too harsh so he can live and work at home...


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Sometimes "an eye for an eye" is not the appropriate action. Sometimes forgiveness is the right option. Sadly, in modern times, forgiveness is often confused with tolerance and acceptance. One may forgive a wrong, but not tolerate it, let alone deeming it acceptable. This is where things like the Catholic concept of true contrition come in. If the wrongdoer won't even indicate true contrition, then they should not be brooked. You may forgive them for their sin, but you cut them out of your dealings. Or else you just roll over and become a doormat, which isn't forgiveness, but is submission.

It is going to be common that someone in your life, especially loved ones, will wrong you in one way or another. Depending on the wrong, you may make it a teachable moment, and forgive them. Other times, you may forgive them and cut them out of your life. And sometimes, you may just not be able to forgive them at all.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Kivlor said:


> One may forgive a wrong, but not tolerate it, ...


Key concept here folks. Hence the rarity of turning the other cheek being the best option. There's a whole range of responsibilities between turning the other cheek and vengeance.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

jld said:


> I think Dug and I could work through an affair. If he wanted to, of course.
> 
> Life is not black and white for most people.
> 
> And Love is pretty powerful.


For some reason this just struck me as really sad JLD.
Like you are pre resigned to giving Dug a free pass on an affair.
The "if he wanted to, of course" part just really struck me as sad.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> For some reason this just struck me as really sad JLD.
> Like you are pre resigned to giving Dug a free pass on an affair.
> The "if he wanted to, of course" part just really struck me as sad.


No, I meant that if he wanted to work through any issues after an affair, I think I would be open to that, as opposed to just automatically divorcing.

We have been together 24 years, and have 5 children. It would not be prudent to just throw all that away.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sometimes, maybe most times,revenge won't bring you satisfaction. Now an eye for an eye has its place to some extent and depends on circumstances. I once saw a man shove my gf and He didnt know I was there. after I knocked him down he definetly regretted his action. It had a tangible consequences.

To try and exact revenge on my x for cheating on me would be useless. I could never inflict enough pain that she caused me. The best revenge for that was to move on and make my life happy.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

The best revenge is to hit someone where it hurts most and in my opinion that is in the pocket.When my gf and I were having problems last year three of her employees were stirring the ****,trying to break us up and they succeeded.While we were broken up her business failed and I bought it purely to prevent her being made bankrupt.All of her former employees applied for jobs in my new business and guess who was the only three I didn't hire.
It felt great to stick it to them.😈😈😈


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

People generally do not understand the real meaning of "Turn the Other Cheek". It is not about being a pacifist. It's about "Peaceful Subversion". 

This is the problem with a lot of misinterpretations of the Bible. When a person does not know the social context of passages in the Bible, its easy to misinterpret based on a reading putting a passage in modern day context.

*“Turning the Other Cheek”: Jesus’ Peaceful Plan to Challenge Injustice *

Most of us have heard about Jesus’ command to “turn the other cheek” (Matt 5:39). This adage has been mistakenly interpreted as Jesus’ support for becoming a doormat underneath the feet of aggressors. We often think the message is to let people beat us up. It verges on religiously motivated masochism.

To take Jesus’ advice as a call to compliant capitulation is a dangerous mistake. It is an interpretation that fails to see his cultural context. It would be like taking Paul’s command for women not to braid their hair as universal condemnation of woven locks (1 Timothy 2:9). Or, you might literally heave a tin can of fiery coals at your enemy’s face because Paul said loving your enemies led to heaping burning coals on their head (Romans 12:20). Such shortsighted interpretation moved me to investigate the cultural meaning behind Jesus’ most mysterious actions in my latest book*Reenacting the Way (of Jesus). Here’s what I discovered about the real meaning behind Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek toward an aggressor (props to Walter Wink et al for this insight).

Most of us have heard about Jesus’ command to “turn the other cheek” (Matt 5:39). This adage has been mistakenly interpreted as Jesus’ support for becoming a doormat underneath the feet of aggressors. We often think the message is to let people beat us up. It verges on religiously motivated masochism.

To take Jesus’ advice as a call to compliant capitulation is a dangerous mistake. It is an interpretation that fails to see his cultural context. It would be like taking Paul’s command for women not to braid their hair as universal condemnation of woven locks (1 Timothy 2:9). Or, you might literally heave a tin can of fiery coals at your enemy’s face because Paul said loving your enemies led to heaping burning coals on their head (Romans 12:20). Such shortsighted interpretation moved me to investigate the cultural meaning behind Jesus’ most mysterious actions in my latest book Reenacting the Way (of Jesus). Here’s what I discovered about the real meaning behind Jesus’ command to turn the other cheek toward an aggressor (props to Walter Wink et al for this insight).

*Getting Slapped by Roman Soldiers*

In Jesus’ day Roman soldiers strutted arrogantly around Israel. The Jewish land was Roman occupied territory. There was no love lost between the occupying soldiers and the Israelite population. When a soldier decided that he needed a Jew’s goods or services, resistance was futile. The Jewish subject better be quick to fetch water, strong enough to carry a load, and ready to give away his shirt or else. If the subject could not perform the request to the soldier’s liking, then a quick backhand to the face was not far behind. This was the situation Jesus addressed in the Sermon on the Mount.

“If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn the other cheek toward him.” The statement seems to imply that one should invite an aggressor to leave no part of the face out of a good beating. This statement does not sit well among Bible readers who believe that a man should protect his property and family against aggression. It really does not sit well in the mind of the careful and culturally informed reader.

Jesus does not just tell someone who takes a fist to the face to expose the uninjured side. He gives clear instruction to expose the left cheek. This leads to a couple important questions. Why would Jesus indicate that the first blow will come to the right cheek? Why would he instruct someone to offer the left cheek to an attacking Roman soldier?

The answer is simple. Roman soldiers tended to be right-handed. When they struck an equal with a fist, it came from the right and made contact with the left side of the face. When they struck an inferior person, they swung with the back of their right hand making contact with the right cheek. In a Mediterranean culture that made clear distinctions between classes, Roman soldiers backhanded their subjects to make a point. Jews were second-class. No one thought twice about the rectitude of treating lesser people with less respect.

*Peaceful Subversion*

When Jesus tells fellow Jews to expose the left cheek, he is calling for “peaceful subversion.” He does not want them to retaliate in anger nor to shrink in some false sense of meekness. He wants to force the Roman soldiers to treat them like equals. He wants the Jews to stand up and demand respect. He wants to make each attacker stop and think about how they are mistreating another human being. It is the same motivation behind his command to “go an extra mile” after a soldier forced you to carry water for the first mile (Matt 5:41). It is intended to activate the soldier’s conscience.

read more here ?Turning the Other Cheek?: Jesus? Peaceful Plan to Challenge Injustice - Reenacting the Way


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

RandomDude said:


> I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?
> 
> Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair. People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?
> 
> Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!


So taking the real meaning of "turn the other cheek"

If you are in a position where you cannot possibly fight back, then respond in a way that forces them to treat you as an equal. Use subversion.

But if you can fight back, and "eye for an eye" still holds.

ETA: 

In today's context, "an eye for an eye" does not mean to rip out the other guy's eye necessarily. There are other ways to extract 'revenge' that do not get you in trouble. For example get them prosecuted and thrown in prison for years upon years.

And not every slight, or injury needs to be 'revenged'. Some of the previous posts on this thread talk about being careful of which hills you chose to die on. I agree with this. Do what is best for you.

Now on the other hand, if someone breaks into my house and starts to harm anyone in my home or me, I'm likely to shoot them. Why? Because that's addressing an immediate threat to lift.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> I don't get it with this pacifism, when has turning the other cheek ever achieved anything?
> 
> Someone takes out your eye you rip out theirs, it's only fair. People must suffer the consequences of their actions otherwise there is no progression, there will always be the aggressor and the victim. Revenge is a natural desire to achieve equilibrium, why fight it?
> 
> Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!


Worked for Gandhi and Martin Luther King. 

I think it can be said though if you don't believe in the Bible then it makes this hard to make sense at all because the command requires a complete act of faith. It working for the two gentleman I mention not withstanding. You need to act against your nature to do it. I think that non-Christians and Christians have used this quote to just assume that you should be a pushover and that somehow makes you holy. Non-Christians use it to make us look foolish. Christians use it to prove how pious they are. I don't think it means that at all. 

I don't really think of it this way. As far as the _take your shirt then give your coat_ thing I think that fits in the idea of not being materialistic which is clearly a command in the bible. From God's point of view it's just a shirt and coat, you are not supposed to care about it that much in the first place. Besides that God can get you a new one but the act of helping your fellow man may change his or her life. And if you have ever done it for the right reasons you do get something out of it. It makes most people feel good to help others. 

As far as the other command (TTOC) I look at it like a command for that exact moment not a lifestyle of letting yourself be taken advantage of. So don't let things escalate, you don't have to win the fight you can choose to take some punishment and then walk away because God may have bigger plans for that person doing the punishing. It also for your safety as frankly you may lose the fight. 

The Bible says-



> Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
> - Romans 12:19


So if you put the two together it doesn't mean there won't be some consequence. I think the point is that God knows the heart so he is better equipped to dispense justice. 

Now again if you don't believe in God then it makes no sense at all because life shows us that there are no consequences many times. One of, though not the main reason I believe is because if I didn't I think I would loose my mind at all the injustice in the world. My sister said to me one time and I liked the idea that she thought justice was that when you die you would have to feel the pain of those you caused pain to. So if you are someone truly awful that could mean lifetimes or intense pain. I think that if God really is going to dispense justice it would look something like this. Doesn't mean it happens on this earth though. Granted this may be an mind exercise that just helps me sleep at night. 

Anyway I get if you are not a true believer then this doesn't do much to help you, but then we all know that this life is unjust, nothing I say here is going to change it. 

Finally in my mind it certainly doesn't mean you have to stay with a cheater, just like it certainly doesn't mean you have to stand there an keep getting your ass kicked, or come back the next day for more.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> I don't know that anyone really forgets, at least not the big things. But some are able to put what was done in perspective.
> 
> My husband says that different people have different capabilities. It takes a lot of strength to be honest, for example. So not everyone may be capable of that. It takes a lot of maturity to be empathetic. Not everyone may be capable of that.
> 
> ...


*Enough to make them want to break their sworn and solemn marital vows and cheat?*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *Enough to make them want to break their sworn and solemn marital vows and cheat?*


That really had to have hurt, arb.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Clearly what Jesus meant by "turn the other cheek" was


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Whao... 3 pages! 



MJJEAN said:


> Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray.
> 
> Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it.


Damn right, and it's a beautiful thing!



Herschel said:


> When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?


Revenge has always brought me peace and as well as peace to those who suffered that I cared about. Of all the vengeance I have taken I regret nothing and would do it all again, and I savor the memories of them.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It depends on the type of retaliation. If you were scammed, there may be a form of retaliation that allows you to recover your losses.
> 
> But it's not even about getting back what you lost. Effective retaliation prevents the perpetrator from doing it again, either to you or to someone else. In that sense, there are times when retaliation (or punishment, or merely consequences if you prefer), is not only appropriate, but even a *moral imperative. *
> 
> Retaliation for vengeance sake is pretty hollow, but when you set aside your personal grievance and look at the big picture; the "why" of the action independent of personal vestment rather than just blind tit-for-tat, there are times when turning the other cheek is the worst thing you can possibly do.


Exactly! Agreed - as failure to bring about revenge in many cases only encourages further offense. When a criminal is getting away with crime again and again you think he's going to stop?



Kivlor said:


> Sometimes "an eye for an eye" is not the appropriate action. Sometimes forgiveness is the right option. Sadly, in modern times, forgiveness is often confused with tolerance and acceptance. One may forgive a wrong, but not tolerate it, let alone deeming it acceptable. This is where things like the Catholic concept of true contrition come in. If the wrongdoer won't even indicate true contrition, then they should not be brooked. You may forgive them for their sin, but you cut them out of your dealings. Or else you just roll over and become a doormat, which isn't forgiveness, but is submission.
> 
> It is going to be common that someone in your life, especially loved ones, will wrong you in one way or another. Depending on the wrong, you may make it a teachable moment, and forgive them. Other times, you may forgive them and cut them out of your life. And sometimes, you may just not be able to forgive them at all.


Aye, a while back another poster said something I wholeheartedly agree with too: "Forgiveness that isn't earned isn't respected"



EleGirl said:


> *Peaceful Subversion*
> 
> When Jesus tells fellow Jews to expose the left cheek, he is calling for “peaceful subversion.” He does not want them to retaliate in anger nor to shrink in some false sense of meekness. He wants to force the Roman soldiers to treat them like equals. He wants the Jews to stand up and demand respect. He wants to make each attacker stop and think about how they are mistreating another human being. It is the same motivation behind his command to “go an extra mile” after a soldier forced you to carry water for the first mile (Matt 5:41). It is intended to activate the soldier’s conscience.
> 
> read more here ?Turning the Other Cheek?: Jesus? Peaceful Plan to Challenge Injustice - Reenacting the Way


Whao... now thats a whole new spin to it


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I thought looking good was the best revenge?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

wild jade said:


> As I see it, forgiveness is about preferring peace to war. * An eye for an eye, as they say, makes the whole world blind. If you are constantly determined to rip out the eyes of anyone who has done you wrong, then you will never know what it is to live at peace. Your revenge will incite another revenge which will make you want revenge ... and on and on it goes.*


 So true....Love relationships aside.. to get along in the world.. sometimes we may have to bite the bullet.. it takes *wisdom* to know how to proceed in each given situation....to calm your jets, and try to get along for the benefit of ...possibly your work place, your children..if you're at someone else's house...etc...Firing back is not always the answer... it will only Exasperate the other and things can get out of hand.. even deadly at times...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> So true....Love relationships aside.. to get along in the world.. sometimes we may have to bite the bullet.. it takes *wisdom* to know how to proceed in each given situation....to calm your jets, and try to get along for the benefit of ...possibly your work place, your children..if you're at someone else's house...etc...Firing back is not always the answer... it will only Exasperate the other and things can get out of hand.. even deadly at times...
> 
> Anytime another individual shows they have little self awareness to their own faults and how to work with others towards a solution.... its very exasperating...If 2 people are like this.. is virtually HOPELESS.


Yep.

We usually only hear one side of the story here on TAM. We have to keep that in mind.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is why, when someone here can't or seems incapable of showing any vulnerability or admitting their own shortcomings, bringing that to the table.... I wouldn't take what they said at much face value..


Escalating tension is usually not helpful . . .


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> Actually, I've found that revenge served swiftly, decisively, and coldly leads to peace. First, once revenge is served it's much easier to let go and move on. Second, word gets around and people tend to avoid messing with someone they fear will also seek revenge on them should they betray.
> 
> Revenge should be harsh enough that it incites more fear than anger. It's not something well done by half measures. The trick is to ruthlessly find and exploit the subjects deepest fears and vulnerabilities. A lot of folks don't have the stomach for it.


Some have the stomach for it too well... and it changes them in ways they wish it never did.

You let one suffering go to embrace another.

The last thing it needs is to be fed.

I have learned my best unintended revenge is to stand in the middle of the fray and be seen standing, then walking away with calm confidence leaving them knowing their attempt to take me out at the knees, didn't.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Some have the stomach for it too well... and it changes them in ways they wish it never did.


Throughout my life, I found that, and many other stuff like that; fiction.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

RD - Forgiveness isn't about giving the other person that wronged you a free pass. Instead it is about giving yourself permission to let go of the anger towards them so you can move on with your life without having a dark cloud over it. Once you realize that forgiveness is about allowing yourself freedom then it takes on a whole different meaning. Also, is living with anger and revenge the morality you choose for yourself or the way you really want to live your life, when instead you can let that stuff go and focus on the positives? We only have a certain number of days to live and I'd hate to waste them focusing on a person that wasn't worthy of my energy.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Throughout my life, I found that, and many other stuff like that; fiction.


I caught my ex-wife in bed with her boyfriend, I hated her with a passion and wished the worst for her in the most literal of terms.

When she took her life, I cannot explain it... the moment was beyond sobering.

I realized just how void of compassion and empathy I had become, however she chose to end it, I carried the ending of that love like I had carried bodies.

That is not fiction... but you are free to call it what you will.

Hardened hearts carry their own self-hell, I will not walk there again.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm very sorry that happened to you. You know it was not in any way your fault, but I imagine you cannot shake the feeling of responsibility. 




Emerging Buddhist said:


> I caught my ex-wife in bed with her boyfriend, I hated her with a passion and wished the worst for her in the most literal of terms.
> 
> When she took her life, I cannot explain it... the moment was beyond sobering.
> 
> ...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Bananapeel said:


> RD - Forgiveness isn't about giving the other person that wronged you a free pass. Instead it is about giving yourself permission to let go of the anger towards them so you can move on with your life without having a dark cloud over it. Once you realize that forgiveness is about allowing yourself freedom then it takes on a whole different meaning. Also, is living with anger and revenge the morality you choose for yourself or the way you really want to live your life, when instead you can let that stuff go and focus on the positives? We only have a certain number of days to live and I'd hate to waste them focusing on a person that wasn't worthy of my energy.



What if the person you are forgiving does not care that you are forgiving them? Do you still guarantee that one will lead better life and this is the only chance that one will be able to live a better life ...... by forgiving someone who does not give a **** in the first place?


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> What if the person you are forgiving does not care that you are forgiving them? Do you still guarantee that one will lead better life and this is the only chance that one will be able to live a better life ...... by forgiving someone who does not give a **** in the first place?


It's not about the other person. That person may not care that they're forgiven any more than they care that you have a death-grudge against them. Forgiveness is for your peace of mind, not theirs.

And throwing in words like "guarantee" and "only chance" at "leading a better life" is laying it on pretty thick. Forgiveness of past wrongs is to my benefit, but it's not like an automatic ticket to Paradise if I do or an express rocket-sled ride to the Lake o' Fire if I don't.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> *Peaceful Subversion*
> 
> When Jesus tells fellow Jews to expose the left cheek, he is calling for “peaceful subversion.” He does not want them to retaliate in anger nor to shrink in some false sense of meekness. He wants to force the Roman soldiers to treat them like equals. He wants the Jews to stand up and demand respect. He wants to make each attacker stop and think about how they are mistreating another human being. It is the same motivation behind his command to “go an extra mile” after a soldier forced you to carry water for the first mile (Matt 5:41). It is intended to activate the soldier’s conscience.
> 
> read more here ?Turning the Other Cheek?: Jesus? Peaceful Plan to Challenge Injustice - Reenacting the Way







RandomDude said:


> Whao... 3 pages!
> 
> Whao... now thats a whole new spin to it


Yeah ... I didn't realize the Savior was so cheeky :laugh:


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Hell when it comes to marriage ask anyone in the infidelity section what is the best course of action - is it forgiveness? Pffft!


In my case yeah it is forgiveness. I'd rather do that and move forward in a peaceful life than to be constantly filled with argument. Ok, so maybe that's not for you. Who am I to say what's best for you?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I'm very sorry that happened to you. You know it was not in any way your fault, but I imagine you cannot shake the feeling of responsibility.


Thank you for your kindness...

Lessons never leave us until they are learned.

My choice was to learn that the lesson of forgiveness is worth every effort and my responsibility to not perpetuate bad things.

We cannot focus on the hurt and expect to grow... collateral damage is no way to live.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

When you can sit back and view humans as limited life forms, it becomes easy to NOT forgive, rather to understand them and accept them for their limitations. We are, what we are, NOT what we would like to be. Anything more is presumptious on our part. Mankind is very shortsighted. Very focused on mundane matters.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

GTdad said:


> It's not about the other person. That person may not care that they're forgiven any more than they care that you have a death-grudge against them. Forgiveness is for your peace of mind, not theirs.
> 
> And throwing in words like "guarantee" and "only chance" at "leading a better life" is laying it on pretty thick. Forgiveness of past wrongs is to my benefit, *but it's not like an automatic ticket to Paradise if I do or an express rocket-sled ride to the Lake o' Fire if I don't.*


Guess only Eddie Money can promise that:


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Herschel said:


> When has retaliation ever gotten you back what you lost?


LOL...not everyone wants BACK the person they're looking to avenge.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I thought looking good was the best revenge?


Pffffft. Some of us can continue looking good *while *still exacting our revenge. >


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Let's look at forgiveness from the other direction:

Can one ask for forgiveness? For example, Marla Maples very publicly asks for Ivana's forgiveness. And then says, it would be good for Ivana.

Would Ivana have a better life if she forgave Marla?

Is it fair to Ivana that Marla so publicly asks for forgiveness? 

At a less celebrity level, imagine someone in the community hassling another person for forgiveness.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL...not everyone wants BACK the person they're looking to avenge.


I don't get this. If you are avenging someone, then they were wronged, likely killed. Wouldn't you want them back? If they were just injured and you then injure someone else, that puts you on the same level as the wrong party. You should really reevaluate your stance.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

she'sstillgotit said:


> pffffft. Some of us can continue looking good *while *still exacting our revenge. >


🤣😂🤣


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> Let's look at forgiveness from the other direction:
> 
> Can one ask for forgiveness? For example, Marla Maples very publicly asks for Ivana's forgiveness. And then says, it would be good for Ivana.
> 
> ...


:rofl:

I would just say "forgiveness is earned" and leave it as that. Prime example of the manipulative nature of asking for forgiveness.


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