# Online affairs



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that online affairs are a lot more common than people admit to, but many don't feel that having an online affair is really ''cheating.'' To me, it is. On this forum, I've read quite a few threads where betrayed spouses were basically betrayed by their wayward spouses having online affairs. Nothing physical happened, but the BS still considered it to be cheating. It doesn't happen over night though, so if you are married or in a serious relationship and are spending a lot of time privately talking to people from the opposite sex whether it's on social media, forums, etc, be careful. That's how affairs start. 

Thought this was worth sharing here. 

9 Signs You are Having an Online Affair


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Any physical or non-physical action, of a secretive or of a covert sexual nature, with another person who is not a party to either the marriage or relationship contract; that whenever one spouse commits it, that he does not desire the other spouse to have any discernible knowledge of, then that largely constitutes an act of infidelity!*


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's cheating. I think it's inappropriate and bad for the relationship, but not infidelity.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I think it depends on the nature of the online activity. If you are deceiving and hiding the relationship it's likely that you are cheating.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

I agree it is common. I think EA and online affairs can be considered grey areas, where everyone's boundaries are going to vary according to the context. Whereas a physical affair most of us would agree is absolutely an affair and totally unacceptable.

I wonder how many people on TAM are open with their partners that they go to a forum to discuss the details of their relationships. How would it make them feel if they read some of the things we discuss on here? How would they feel if friendships have developed here, either in public or in private messaging? Because I see this ALL the time.

Most regular posters seem to be here most days - philosophically speaking - is it possible that we are all having one big collective emotional affair? :surprise: :grin2: (I'm teasing - a little).


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Bananapeel said:


> I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's cheating. I think it's inappropriate and bad for the relationship, but not infidelity.


I somewhat agree. There’s such a fine line though. I live in the northeast United States. Let’s say I caught my husband sending sexual messages to a woman say in Cambodia. I’m probably not likely to think of that as CHEATING. Inappropriate, not good for the marriage, etc. but the likelihood of them meeting up is slim to none. He may as well be sexting with a bot at that point. It could be a catfish for all I know. Hurtful and inappropriate, yes. Damaging to the trust, yes. 

But let’s say he’s talking online to a woman from the next town over. Definitely different. The potential for it to easily go physical is just too big. There’s not an ocean in between them to stop them. 

Unfortunately, at any point that you are lying and/or hiding things from your spouse – you are at the very least deceitful and breaking their trust. Whether or not you consider it “real” infidelity, it still hurts tremendously and damages the relationship.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

oral sex, finger sex and 'eating out' isn't real sex.
just ask billy jeff clinton. or a lot of teens these days.
it's ok if your teenage 13 y.o. daughter doesn't have 'sex', right?

and getting your jollies with another man or woman even if they're 
1000 miles away isn't cheating either.

it's called equivocating.

parse it any way you want to. it doesn't change a goose to a duck.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

peacem said:


> I agree it is common. I think EA and online affairs can be considered grey areas, where everyone's boundaries are going to vary according to the context. Whereas a physical affair most of us would agree is absolutely an affair and totally unacceptable.
> 
> I wonder how many people on TAM are open with their partners that they go to a forum to discuss the details of their relationships. How would it make them feel if they read some of the things we discuss on here? How would they feel if friendships have developed here, either in public or in private messaging? Because I see this ALL the time.
> 
> Most regular posters seem to be here most days - philosophically speaking - is it possible that we are all having one big collective emotional affair? :surprise: :grin2: (I'm teasing - a little).


This is true that EAs have a bit of a grey area. It's about emotional investments that take energy that would have otherwise been invested in the marriage. When looked at this way an EA covers a lot more that chatting up someone you might be sexually attracted towards.

For instance if I am on TAM so much that I am investing emotional energy working on someone else's problem that I ignore obligations and emotional investment in my wife then I am being unfaithful because I'm putting others before the marriage.

This test can be applied to a variety of relationships including best friends or jobs in addition to the opposite sex. I've known wives that emotionally support and invest in their girlfriends more than their husbands and I consider this to be an emotional affair though many would not consider this an EA. Likewise I've known husbands that prioritize sports to the extent their wives are considered <insert sport> widows. 

It's all about balance and boundaries.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Wow, such different and interesting opinions! I'm thinking that it would be cheating, I mean, look at the threads on here where betrayed spouses are crushed by their spouses having online affairs. Sure, no actual sex took place, but spending that much time emotionally connecting with someone other than your spouse, might be more heartbreaking than a one night stand.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

TX-SC said:


> I think it depends on the nature of the online activity. If you are deceiving and hiding the relationship it's likely that you are cheating.


Well, yea. If it crosses over into an ''affair''...then, it would be cheating. Chatting with people of the opposite sex is fine online, but one should know their boundaries, and excessive private messaging for example or taking things to email might be crossing those boundaries, and you might lose your way. From all I've read on here, and what I've observed offline, affairs don't happen overnight.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Wait wha???? Not cheating??? Ok, I just went through this with my ex, and it is every bit cheating as getting a **** shoved deep inside you. ANYTHING that is done with another person and is illicit, hidden from your spouse and is sexual in nature is cheating. Come on people. This is about marriage and honestly and commitment. If someone else is actively getting you off, then you are cheating. There is no opinion about this.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

peacem said:


> I agree it is common. I think EA and online affairs can be considered grey areas, where everyone's boundaries are going to vary according to the context. Whereas a physical affair most of us would agree is absolutely an affair and totally unacceptable.
> 
> I wonder how many people on TAM are open with their partners that they go to a forum to discuss the details of their relationships. How would it make them feel if they read some of the things we discuss on here? How would they feel if friendships have developed here, either in public or in private messaging? Because I see this ALL the time.
> 
> Most regular posters seem to be here most days - philosophically speaking - is it possible that we are all having one big collective emotional affair? :surprise: :grin2: (I'm teasing - a little).


It's interesting that you bring this up. My husband doesn't know about TAM (as far as I'm aware) and I wouldn't want him to know. I think he would be extremely upset if he knew I was on here and knew about some of the comments that I've made about the marriage. Yes, it's a "secret" that I'm keeping from him. I feel that this site has helped me deal with some of the issues, however I don't think he would see it that way at all. 

I've read comments about TAM members starting EA's with each other but I don't actually know of any. 

When it comes to whether sexting/online affairs is actually cheating, it's kind of like a spectrum for me. I don't see it as black & white; there are lot of gray areas. And, for me, there are levels of cheating (if that makes any sense). Before coming to TAM, I never really thought much about it and wouldn't have considered an online affair "too bad". TAM has taught me a lot about cheating and now after reading about other marriages that have been destroyed by online affairs, I do now think online affairs as cheating and do believe that they destroy marriages but the level of betrayal is a spectrum for me. IMO. :smile2:


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> parse it any way you want to. it doesn't change a goose to a duck.


Oh come on Jorg, why not let the on-liners use a little available politically correct phraseology to change the perspective and avoid disturbing feelings, thoughts and events.  Or in reality its like giving a computer course in home landscaping. If you'll get on-line and describe to its owners how you would treat their bushes, you'd do it the same way if you were on site.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> It's interesting that you bring this up. My husband doesn't know about TAM (as far as I'm aware) and I wouldn't want him to know. I think he would be extremely upset if he knew I was on here and knew about some of the comments that I've made about the marriage. Yes, it's a "secret" that I'm keeping from him. I feel that this site has helped me deal with some of the issues, however I don't think he would see it that way at all.
> 
> I've read comments about TAM members starting EA's with each other but I don't actually know of any.
> 
> When it comes to whether sexting/online affairs is actually cheating, it's kind of like a spectrum for me. I don't see it as black & white; there are lot of gray areas. And, for me, there are levels of cheating (if that makes any sense). Before coming to TAM, I never really thought much about it and wouldn't have considered an online affair "too bad". TAM has taught me a lot about cheating and now after reading about other marriages that have been destroyed by online affairs, I do now think online affairs as cheating and do believe that they destroy marriages but the level of betrayal is a spectrum for me. IMO. :smile2:


I've read comments about married people here starting EA's too, and why an EA would seem like cheating to me, is that it would be an emotional betrayal. To me, betrayals come in different forms...physical, mental, emotional, etc. 

Why would your husband be upset if he knew you were on TAM?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

tropicalbeachiwish said:


> It's interesting that you bring this up. My husband doesn't know about TAM (as far as I'm aware) and I wouldn't want him to know. I think he would be extremely upset if he knew I was on here and knew about some of the comments that I've made about the marriage. Yes, it's a "secret" that I'm keeping from him. I feel that this site has helped me deal with some of the issues, however I don't think he would see it that way at all.
> 
> I've read comments about TAM members starting EA's with each other but I don't actually know of any.
> 
> When it comes to whether sexting/online affairs is actually cheating, it's kind of like a spectrum for me. I don't see it as black & white; there are lot of gray areas. And, for me, there are levels of cheating (if that makes any sense). Before coming to TAM, I never really thought much about it and wouldn't have considered an online affair "too bad". TAM has taught me a lot about cheating and now after reading about other marriages that have been destroyed by online affairs, I do now think online affairs as cheating and do believe that they destroy marriages but the level of betrayal is a spectrum for me. IMO. :smile2:


My W knows I am on TAM but probably not necessarily discussing details regarding our marriage. Don't really know how she would feel about it. In all fairness though, this is stuff that I would gladly (and have) discussed with her. I just like to talk things out first (usually in my head first, but that is where TAM helps as it lets me get thoughts down on paper). Maybe it is a bit of overthinking, but I find our conversations go better after I have sorted my thoughts out vs just saying whatever comes to mind.

The way I look at it, if you are directing energy (sexual, emotional, etc..) away from your spouse (whether it be online on in person), you are quickly moving into what I consider an affair. I personally still consider a physical affair the most damaging (i.e. for me there is no going back, an online or EA I would be willing to at least try to talk through).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> My W knows I am on TAM but probably not necessarily discussing details regarding our marriage. Don't really know how she would feel about it. In all fairness though, this is stuff that I would gladly (and have) discussed with her. I just like to talk things out first (usually in my head first, but that is where TAM helps as it lets me get thoughts down on paper). Maybe it is a bit of overthinking, but I find our conversations go better after I have sorted my thoughts out vs just saying whatever comes to mind.
> 
> The way I look at it, if you are directing energy (sexual, emotional, etc..) away from your spouse (whether it be online on in person), you are quickly moving into what I consider an affair. I personally still consider a physical affair the most damaging (i.e. for me there is no going back, an online or EA I would be willing to at least try to talk through).


Yea, I can see why a spouse might not want their spouse talking about him/her online. But, if you're seeking advice, then I understand it. But, there are some married people on here who share waaaayyyy too much about what they do with their spouse sexually. And some of those threads become very flirty. Not trying to seem like a prude, but highly doubt their spouses would appreciate knowing that their sex lives are being talked about in extreme detail with people of the opposite sex. And that's out in the open. lol

I just think that if you wouldn't want it done to you, then don't do it to your spouse.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't think the question should be "Is it cheating?" The questions should be "At what point is it cheating?"

Because everyone's going to have a line.

The line for me was when my husband moved from porn to sex chatting. He was interacting with other women, in secret of course, for the purpose of sexual gratification. Not just random women in pictures or videos, but one-on-one. THEM, specifically. Chatting with a woman who undressed in front of her webcam for him. And he paid for it. I don't care if she's on Mars, that is NOT ok.

The line's going to be different for some, though, and that's OK. Some women freak out over plain porn. Some couldn't care less if their husband mutually masturbates on a regular basis with an online group as long as he never meets anyone in person. Whatever floats your boat I guess. And if the line for YOU is that anything done online only if fine, then all I can say is that you have a very lucky spouse. Or unlucky, depending on your paint of view.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Bananapeel said:


> I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's cheating. I think it's inappropriate and bad for the relationship, but not infidelity.


If it is anything you would not say or do in front of your SO, it is cheating. 

I assume this includes exchanging pics.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

peacem said:


> I agree it is common. I think EA and online affairs can be considered grey areas, where everyone's boundaries are going to vary according to the context. Whereas a physical affair most of us would agree is absolutely an affair and totally unacceptable.
> 
> I wonder how many people on TAM are open with their partners that they go to a forum to discuss the details of their relationships. How would it make them feel if they read some of the things we discuss on here? How would they feel if friendships have developed here, either in public or in private messaging? Because I see this ALL the time.
> 
> Most regular posters seem to be here most days - philosophically speaking - is it possible that we are all having one big collective emotional affair? :surprise: :grin2: (I'm teasing - a little).


No just one big support group with daily meeting.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I somewhat agree. There’s such a fine line though. I live in the northeast United States. Let’s say I caught my husband sending sexual messages to a woman say in Cambodia. I’m probably not likely to think of that as CHEATING. Inappropriate, not good for the marriage, etc. but the likelihood of them meeting up is slim to none. He may as well be sexting with a bot at that point. It could be a catfish for all I know. Hurtful and inappropriate, yes. Damaging to the trust, yes.
> 
> But let’s say he’s talking online to a woman from the next town over. Definitely different. The potential for it to easily go physical is just too big. There’s not an ocean in between them to stop them.
> 
> Unfortunately, at any point that you are lying and/or hiding things from your spouse – you are at the very least deceitful and breaking their trust. Whether or not you consider it “real” infidelity, it still hurts tremendously and damages the relationship.


Why would it not be?

He was spending time and sexual feeling/ energy on that woman. He was pushing boundaries aside in a "safe" environment. What he did on line became second nature in his daily life. 

When your SO is not the recipient of your affections and sexual desires, the road to cheating is started on. Any means that enables this is cheating in a degree.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

When I have no problem with my wife looking over my shoulder with everything I look at and type, I am open and honorable.

When I have a problem with my wife looking over my shoulder with everything I look at and type, I am closed and secret.

This makes it pretty simple to determine which has value in my relationship, and which one does not.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Wow, such different and interesting opinions! I'm thinking that it would be cheating, I mean, look at the threads on here where betrayed spouses are crushed by their spouses having online affairs. Sure, no actual sex took place, but spending that much time emotionally connecting with someone other than your spouse, might be more heartbreaking than a one night stand.


Ohh it's cheating but I think cheating can come in degrees of variation. I do think physical affairs is more of a betrayal than an online one. That might just be a personal view but how I see it. I may have been able to forgive my x if she only texted inappropriately but once it was physical that marriage was 100% over no questions ask.


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## Zanne (Dec 7, 2012)

For the record and as a cautionary tale, I met my current partner on TAM, so yes, it happens. We were both in troubled marriages and probably ripe for an affair. We commiserated about our marriages via PM and then exchanged emails and took it off board. Things happened pretty fast after that. He lived on the West coast and I lived in the upper Midwest, but we met for the first time a few months after we started talking. Don't think of online affairs as innocent friendships.

We eventually separated from our spouses and moved in together (I moved to his state) and after 28 years of marriage, we are divorcing our spouses. While the divorces were already in the cards (in our minds, anyway), our spouses and families were traumatized by our actions and the effects of the affair are long lasting for all of us.

I would caution anyone who is vulnerable to attention to think about boundaries. Disable the PM option if needed. Be transparent. For us, small boundaries had already been crossed before we met so it didn't take much to cross another boundary and then another.


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## Itwasjustafantasy (Jan 8, 2016)

In my case, I have learned the devastation my online affairs have caused. The affairs involved mainly exchanging private messages over facebook and one man sent me a picture of himself shirtless. I would delete every message soon after any contact to prevent my husband from finding out. When I wasn't interacting with these men (either because I was at work or couldn't use my phone) I spent lots of time thinking about when would be the next time I would get to interact with them again. So right there I was investing energy and time on men other than my husband which was disrespectful and very damaging to my marriage. 
My husband has told me that he always used to think that a physical affair would be worse than anything else but the online EAs I had through the course of almost a whole year have been incredibly painful and devastating. He now thinks that any form of cheating is horrible because of the loss of safety and trust that he used to believe we had in our marriage. I also used to think that my online affairs were not really that bad as they were in my view "not real life," but the fact is that the aftermath has been very much real: the shame and disgust I feel knowing that what I was doing was wrong, being exposed to my mother and siblings, realizing that I have come incredibly close to ending my marriage and* destroying my family,* all these consequences have been very painfully real.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that we all know if we're honest, what crossing the line would be. And if we would be ashamed to share it with our SO's, then it might not be cheating, but it would be ''wrong.'' Doing enough wrong online, will eventually lead to an online affair, nothing happens over night.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Itwasjustafantasy said:


> In my case, I have learned the devastation my online affairs have caused. The affairs involved mainly exchanging private messages over facebook and one man sent me a picture of himself shirtless. I would delete every message soon after any contact to prevent my husband from finding out. When I wasn't interacting with these men (either because I was at work or couldn't use my phone) I spent lots of time thinking about when would be the next time I would get to interact with them again. So right there I was investing energy and time on men other than my husband which was disrespectful and very damaging to my marriage.
> My husband has told me that he always used to think that a physical affair would be worse than anything else but the online EAs I had through the course of almost a whole year have been incredibly painful and devastating. He now thinks that any form of cheating is horrible because of the loss of safety and trust that he used to believe we had in our marriage. I also used to think that my online affairs were not really that bad as they were in my view "not real life," but the fact is that the aftermath has been very much real: the shame and disgust I feel knowing that what I was doing was wrong, being exposed to my mother and siblings, realizing that I have come incredibly close to ending my marriage and* destroying my family,* all these consequences have been very painfully real.


Wow, thanks for sharing this! I'm sorry that this all happened, but you probably grew from the experience. ((hug))


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> I think that we all know if we're honest, what crossing the line would be. And if we would be ashamed to share it with our SO's, then it might not be cheating, but it would be ''wrong.'' Doing enough wrong online, will eventually lead to an online affair, nothing happens over night.


Crossing the line is different for different people. And when you're in the grip of an EA it feels right. The key is to have agreement between you and your spouse on what the line is, what good boundaries are and what transparency entails.

With transparency its possible to have your spouse notice before it gets too far and help pull you back.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

meson said:


> Crossing the line is different for different people. And when you're in the grip of an EA it feels right. The key is to have agreement between you and your spouse on what the line is, what good boundaries are and what transparency entails.
> 
> With transparency its possible to have your spouse notice before it gets too far and help pull you back.


Maybe. I just think to not put ourselves in those situations to start with, is probably best. We're only human.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> Maybe. I just think to not put ourselves in those situations to start with, is probably best. We're only human.




Almost any situation can start an affair: work, hobbies, jogging clubs, PTA, Al-anon, etc. 

The trick is to have proper boundaries to survive any situation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> I think that online affairs are a lot more common than people admit to, but many don't feel that having an online affair is really ''cheating.'' To me, it is. On this forum, I've read quite a few threads where betrayed spouses were basically betrayed by their wayward spouses having online affairs. Nothing physical happened, but the BS still considered it to be cheating. It doesn't happen over night though, so if you are married or in a serious relationship and are spending a lot of time privately talking to people from the opposite sex whether it's on social media, forums, etc, be careful. That's how affairs start.
> 
> Thought this was worth sharing here.
> 
> 9 Signs You are Having an Online Affair


OP,
It is really a matter of perspective. One can see something as "cheating" whereas another may not. For example, I have a family member that always said "it doesn't matter where I get my appetite as long as I come home to eat". He felt nothing wrong with looking, fantasizing, daydreaming or whatever as long as he did not touch. I vehemently disagree with this assessment. To me, anything that detracts from a marriage, anything that could potentially damage it, is cheating.

To find stimulation in erotic thoughts about another woman I see as problematic because there will come a time where the thoughts become too familiar, too commonplace and no longer provide the necessary stimulation. Then what? The next obvious step is to "ramp it up a notch". Then what? So you see, to me, this is problematic but to him it was not. He did eventually go on to involving others and he and his wife are still together so perhaps his mindset changed to "it does not matter where I get my appetite as long as I do not eat out too much". I cannot say with certainty since I do not associate with him very much. The point is he sees nothing wrong with his mindset whereas I do.

So then what of online cheating? Can someone be unfaithful with their intellect, their emotions, their desires without physical contact? Well how do we define "physical contact". Is it defined as corporeal contact, physically touching another person's body with a part of your body? Or can we "touch" someone with our words, images, glances that can evoke real physical feelings not only in them but in ourselves as well? I believe we can and I also believe that if these things are done covertly that not only is the spouse being unfaithful but deceitful as well, which is another marriage killer.

So, to me, online "affairs" are in every way as real and as damaging as physical affairs since the intent, desire and effort are all put into it. These ingredients are crucial to a successful marriage when focused on your spouse and just as poisonous to a marriage when not.


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## ShatteredStill (Dec 20, 2016)

12 years ago my husband had an affair with a coworker. It was life changing & brutal. I learnt lessons I wish I had never learnt. 

Life carried on. We were pulled back together by tragedies & joys. We had our 2 beautiful children. Everything was great!

I became very sick & nearly died. Emergency surgery saved me but my internal organs had become septic, the surgeon ripped me open again removing a staple. My husband lost his job. We had a really rough couple of months. His ex sent a message via Linked-In saying, "Hey!". One innocent little word. It took him a week to reply & utterly break me.

To anyone who thinks an online affair is no big deal try reading, "Your the last thing I think of before I go to sleep & the first thing I think of in the morning." You have no idea why your partner is being so distant & cruel. You fight for your marriage whilst fighting for your life. You get diagnosed with cancer. All the time the love of your life is sending gifts of your things, favorite wine, your CHILDRENs favorite books, music that you shared & had so many romantic moments tied to. Try finding the receipt for mothers Day flowers "To the GREATEST MOTHER IN THE WORLD! All my love always". 

I poured my heart out only to read him mocking me with my words to her. My physical state, scars & stitches, intimate cancer surgeries used to debase me & woo her!! 

What's sex? You can get drunk & do that hardly thinking or feeling. Pledging your LOVE to another, sharing intimacies, your history, your weaknesses, her unforgettable eyes & other such drivel. 

Yeh! It's just online. No big deal.

AND knowing that he was sat next to ME or with our little girl on his lap....She was in my house although they lived states apart!


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Maybe. I just think to not put ourselves in those situations to start with, is probably best. We're only human.


This is good advice but it is not enough for all circumstances. 

Through normal normal contact and above board activities I found myself declining into an EA. Nothing I did was overtly wrong but I didn't notice the steady stream of contact escalation I was doing. My wife did and if she hadn't have said anything it might have crossed the point of no return. This is why I think it's crucial for spouses to have agreement early on on these things and the level of transparency needed.


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## Itwasjustafantasy (Jan 8, 2016)

ShatteredStill said:


> 12 years ago my husband had an affair with a coworker. It was life changing & brutal. I learnt lessons I wish I had never learnt.
> 
> Life carried on. We were pulled back together by tragedies & joys. We had our 2 beautiful children. Everything was great!
> 
> ...


ShatteredStill,
I did not know your story. This is heartbreaking. I am truly sorry for what you went through. While my story might not be the same, I do see some similarities and it has further opened my eyes to the incredible pain I must have caused my husband. I have thanked him, told him I am sorry and also that I see how incredibly strong he is given the horrible behavior on my part that he has had to deal with. 
Again, I have no words other than to say your story has touched me profoundly and that I am so very sorry for the pain you had to endure.


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Maybe. I just think to not put ourselves in those situations to start with, is probably best. We're only human.


OP - one of the most cerebral threads I've read on TAM is this thread by Just Joe

In fact, it is the first thread I read trying to help someone else. The thread hits some very existential thoughts and is a good read for anyone.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Absurdist said:


> OP - one of the most cerebral threads I've read on TAM is this thread by Just Joe
> 
> In fact, it is the first thread I read trying to help someone else. The thread hits some very existential thoughts and is a good read for anyone.


I just looked at that thread, wow. Thanks for sharing it. I wonder why spouses who are ''caught'' cheating, often scramble to make everything up to their current spouse, they fight to 'save' the marriage, etc. But, up until they were caught, they were perfectly fine to keep ignoring their partner, and cheat. Kind of makes me wonder if it's ever really genuine, when cheaters are caught.  Or they just don't want to lose their house, lifestyle, etc.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

meson said:


> This is good advice but it is not enough for all circumstances.
> 
> Through normal normal contact and above board activities I found myself declining into an EA. Nothing I did was overtly wrong but I didn't notice the steady stream of contact escalation I was doing. My wife did and if she hadn't have said anything it might have crossed the point of no return. This is why I think it's crucial for spouses to have agreement early on on these things and the level of transparency needed.


Why do you think your wife could sense it but you couldn't?


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## Itwasjustafantasy (Jan 8, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder why spouses who are ''caught'' cheating, often scramble to make everything up to their current spouse, they fight to 'save' the marriage, etc. But, up until they were caught, they were perfectly fine to keep ignoring their partner, and cheat. Kind of makes me wonder if it's ever really genuine, when cheaters are caught.  Or they just don't want to lose their house, lifestyle, etc.


I can only speak for myself. When my husband caught me the first time back in January 2016, it forced us both to evaluate our marriage. We had to deal with my cheating and in addition to it with the status of our relationship. We both realized that our marriage had been pretty dead over many years...and things had gotten worse since we had our little girl. We had a very hard time adjusting to parenting, we let our child become the center of our world (while we pretty much neglected each other, so all the energy, time and attention went to our child. Little is we knoe how badly we were damaging our marriage). At the time I was still cosleeping with our daughter most of the time and this took away from the already very limited time we had as a couple.
So when my EA came to light we had to make some adjustments while on my end I had to reassure my husband that I would never make him responsible for my cheating. We were both largely unhappy and exhausted (working full time jobs, extremely long commutes to work, very little alone time, etc) and we figured that after so many years of marriage that is just how things would be...very little fun, passion, etc The key difference is that my husband found some healthy ways of coping (going to the gym, visitng his family, etc) while I became depressed, isolated and eventually engaged in EAs. 
We have chosen to reconciliate. Why? Because we had a good marriageat one time. We both stopped nurturing it and we both still believe we can try. We also have a young child. Finally, we are working on a postnuptial agreement. I am not a vindictive person, we have a child together. Why in the world would I want to go out of my way to hurt him any further should he decided to divorce me? I have a master's degree, a very stable job, our house will be paid off in less than 10 years, I have excellent benefits which cover both my husband and child, I grew up in a third world country and I am not afraid of living in poverty. My husband is largely responsible for carefully managing our finances and so we put aay the maximum allowed per paycheck towards retirement and pension. If we were to divorce I would gladly give him whatever will allow him to maintain his current lifestyle. He is the father of my child. I need him to stay sane and as stress free as possible to be able to care for himself and thus our child. 
Ultimately as much hurt as I have caused him through my cheating, I know deep down I love him. I know that I can step up and become the wife he deserves. And I am beyond grateful that he is giving me another chance.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

ShatteredStill said:


> 12 years ago my husband had an affair with a coworker. It was life changing & brutal. I learnt lessons I wish I had never learnt.
> 
> Life carried on. We were pulled back together by tragedies & joys. We had our 2 beautiful children. Everything was great!
> 
> ...


YOu are absolutely 100% correct. Great post.
I feel your pain, I've been there. 
Internet emotional/physical affairs are NO DOUBT just as crushing to a relationship, just as sinister and shady, just as vile and disgusting as any other affair.
ANyone who doubts this only needs to experience it themselves.
That will leave no doubt in their mind about them, either.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Why do you think your wife could sense it but you couldn't?


She could see my demeanor change around the OW. She also saw that I did more and more things that involved her. In a really old thread that I couldnt find, I likened it to driving a bus on the edge of a cliff. As a bus driver I can't see the wheels as well as someone not encased in the confines of the bus like the driver. She saw the wheels getting too close to the edge and I thought I was still ok. I didn't even believe her when she said the OW was my girlfriend. The dopamine and other neural chemicals had a strong hold on me.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*No matter how pretty that you paint the picture or make it seem, at the end of the day, it is nothing more than good ol' fashioned cheating!*


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I just looked at that thread, wow. Thanks for sharing it. I wonder why spouses who are ''caught'' cheating, often scramble to make everything up to their current spouse, they fight to 'save' the marriage, etc. But, up until they were caught, they were perfectly fine to keep ignoring their partner, and cheat. Kind of makes me wonder if it's ever really genuine, when cheaters are caught.  Or they just don't want to lose their house, lifestyle, etc.


That was gut wrenching. For both her and him. I almost felt she was like a prisoner in her own life after that. You have no idea what anyone is ever thinking, especially after something like that. Happy I am separated...I'd never be able to trust again.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Itwasjustafantasy said:


> I can only speak for myself. When my husband caught me the first time back in January 2016, it forced us both to evaluate our marriage. We had to deal with my cheating and in addition to it with the status of our relationship. We both realized that our marriage had been pretty dead over many years...and things had gotten worse since we had our little girl. We had a very hard time adjusting to parenting, we let our child become the center of our world (while we pretty much neglected each other, so all the energy, time and attention went to our child. Little is we knoe how badly we were damaging our marriage). At the time I was still cosleeping with our daughter most of the time and this took away from the already very limited time we had as a couple.
> So when my EA came to light we had to make some adjustments while on my end I had to reassure my husband that I would never make him responsible for my cheating. We were both largely unhappy and exhausted (working full time jobs, extremely long commutes to work, very little alone time, etc) and we figured that after so many years of marriage that is just how things would be...very little fun, passion, etc The key difference is that my husband found some healthy ways of coping (going to the gym, visitng his family, etc) while I became depressed, isolated and eventually engaged in EAs.
> We have chosen to reconciliate. Why? Because we had a good marriageat one time. We both stopped nurturing it and we both still believe we can try. We also have a young child. Finally, we are working on a postnuptial agreement. I am not a vindictive person, we have a child together. Why in the world would I want to go out of my way to hurt him any further should he decided to divorce me? I have a master's degree, a very stable job, our house will be paid off in less than 10 years, I have excellent benefits which cover both my husband and child, I grew up in a third world country and I am not afraid of living in poverty. My husband is largely responsible for carefully managing our finances and so we put aay the maximum allowed per paycheck towards retirement and pension. If we were to divorce I would gladly give him whatever will allow him to maintain his current lifestyle. He is the father of my child. I need him to stay sane and as stress free as possible to be able to care for himself and thus our child.
> Ultimately as much hurt as I have caused him through my cheating, I know deep down I love him. I know that I can step up and become the wife he deserves. And I am beyond grateful that he is giving me another chance.


 You seem really contrite over what happened, and I do wish you and your husband the best, now. Sometimes the greatest lessons are the ones that we felt the most pain ((hug))



meson said:


> She could see my demeanor change around the OW. She also saw that I did more and more things that involved her. In a really old thread that I couldnt find, I likened it to driving a bus on the edge of a cliff. As a bus driver I can't see the wheels as well as someone not encased in the confines of the bus like the driver. She saw the wheels getting too close to the edge and I thought I was still ok. I didn't even believe her when she said the OW was my girlfriend. The dopamine and other neural chemicals had a strong hold on me.


Interesting, and appreciate you sharing. I wonder though, didn't you feel that those feelings were similar to how you once felt about your wife? But, maybe it's hard to see the forest through the trees, as they say. 



Herschel said:


> That was gut wrenching. For both her and him. I almost felt she was like a prisoner in her own life after that. You have no idea what anyone is ever thinking, especially after something like that. Happy I am separated...I'd never be able to trust again.


It would be hard to trust again. I understand we're only human, we make mistakes. I'd like to think that I could forgive, but it would be hard to ever forget...and be like the pain had never happened.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Yea, I can see why a spouse might not want their spouse talking about him/her online. But, if you're seeking advice, then I understand it. *But, there are some married people on here who share waaaayyyy too much about what they do with their spouse sexually. And some of those threads become very flirty. Not trying to seem like a prude, but highly doubt their spouses would appreciate knowing that their sex lives are being talked about in extreme detail with people of the opposite sex. And that's out in the open. lol*
> 
> I just think that if you wouldn't want it done to you, then don't do it to your spouse.


*I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*

This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.

There is one guy on TAM who latches on to women who are particularly vulnerable inasmuch as having a sexual dysfunction within their marriage. He PM's 'support' and offers daily friendship and genuinely offers great advice. After a time, when he has gained confidence, he moves this 'friendship' further by asking to exchange intimate details of sex acts, fantasies etc. When he either doesn't get what he wants or gets bored he moves onto another woman. I also know he circulates other forums looking for online sexual interaction with women who share a sexual kink. His wife does not know what he does and in my opinion is having multiple on-line affairs - whilst at the same time well meaning posters offer sincere support when he reports of his wife's 'unreasonable' behaviour.

He is a daily poster and generally seen as a nice guy, charming and well thought of. In public he claims to be pro-marriage, anti-infidelity and a Christian man who loves his family. Many of his problems that he posts about are actually his own doing because of his past mistakes - but in public a very different story is told where he is a victim of his LD wife's craziness. It also creates an opportunity for him to approach women via PM 'my wife doesn't understand me'. Its easy to get sucked in.

Point is...be careful when you get into friendships and daily support groups when you are discussing sex or issues around personal vulnerability. Sometimes those that appear to be your friend are not always so and the stories we are told are very much one sided. Be careful not to get over involved in other people's issues and remember you don't know the agenda of the person who wants to 'support' you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


Please report this person to the moderators, peacem. 

And I am very sorry to see you go.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear that too, @peacem. Also sorry to see you go as I appreciate your contributions here. 

Your issue is the one reason I disable my PM function.

Please report the poster to the mods.


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## Itwasjustafantasy (Jan 8, 2016)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


So I am a wayward spouse and I can understand how my opinion may carry little weight in this forum as it is geared to support betrayed spouses. I actually do hold posters on this forum to a higher standard than I would elsewhere especially because the general tone of TAM is one where talk of proper boundaries and respect for one's spouse is repeatedly emphasized. I would be disgusted if I ever found myself at the receiving end of any form of harrassment or attempts at being engaged in any way that would be disrespectful to my marriage.

I haven't disabled my PM function because the support I have received has been from a couple of female posters and only one male. And each one has been clearly with a genuine intent to be helpful and for that I am very grateful. After having been at the receiving end of multiple comments that I found hurtful (even if I can rationally understand that I may have deserved them), it would be very hard to resist the will to expose such people publicly. At the least I would absolutely report them. You may think I am a hypocrite but in my view posters here who seem to hold eveyone to a high standard of respect should expect to get the same treatment.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


A Christian man? Guess that rules me out...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

@peacem Are you leaving us??

Please don't. Take a break. Come back later.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


Not 100% sure, but there are a few who do this. I kept my pm's closed for a while, and then I thought...I'll just not reply if I get a pm from a married guy. Please don't leave though...I like your posts ((hug))


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


Seriously? That is f'd up (and sad) on so many levels ...

At first I thought you were talking about me, but you made no mention of exchanging MEMEs so I knew I was off the hook ... phew ...

It is interesting to see how the PM function gets abused on various forums. The theme is usually the same even if the topic/subject is completely different.


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## ulyssesheart (Jan 7, 2017)

Welcome to life. Welcome to male/female interaction. Nothing new here. The cure would be worse than the offense. Censorism is the worse reality. Be awake, aware at every turn in life.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> Interesting, and appreciate you sharing. I wonder though, didn't you feel that those feelings were similar to how you once felt about your wife? But, maybe it's hard to see the forest through the trees, as they say.


Eventually I did realize I had feelings for the OW. I also realized that I was still very much in love with my wife. Our marriage had gone through a dark period from which we addressed some issues and our marriage recovered. During this period I fell in love with my wife again. It was the same as when we were dating and early in our marriage. It was some time after this that I got to know the OW and followed her advice to help me become a better father which was something my wife needed which she knew because she was a close friend to my wife. As time went on and I discovered I had feelings for her it confused me greatly because I didn't think it was possible to love two at once. This brought me to TAM where through the posts of Entropy and Sigma I learned that I was in an EA, albeit a one sided one. After researching love and it's chemical basis I discovered that I was addicted to the OW interactions. So I treated it like one and limited contact and went through withdrawal. It took a long time but the feelings were extinguished. 

I was lucky that this happened when our marriage was in a good state because otherwise I might have continued escalating past the point of no return. People with a vacuum in their relationships are more prone to accepting validation. 

What peacem said is true for others as well. I remember one poster (whose name I forget) that was as anti betrayal as anyone. Well he was targeted by a few trolls who PM'd him constantly and actually got him into an EA. he eventually realized what had happened and posted about it and how much of a thrill each response was to messages. He admitted being hooked and then was too embarrassed that he became someone he railed against and dropped off TAM years ago. 

Online or not one needs to have a limit to what one tells or does with another to avoid getting to close. The bottom line is that kind of emotional support or venting should be reserved for your spouse. The danger is that when you are in it, it feels right when it is actually wrong. That's why it's so hard to pull out.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

ulyssesheart said:


> Welcome to life. Welcome to male/female interaction. Nothing new here. The cure would be worse than the offense. Censorism is the worse reality. Be awake, aware at every turn in life.


There's honestly no reason for people of the opposite sex who are in LTR's or marriages to be having secretive chats online with members of the opposite sex in pm's. Nothing good ever really comes of it, if you ask me.  You might convince yourself that this stranger online has become your ''friend,'' but if you have to keep him/her a secret from your spouse, then he/she is more than a friend.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


Moderator note:

Please share the identity of your suspicions with one of us mods so we can look into this. 

It will remain confidential within the mod group.

If anyone else suspects or experiences this please PM a mod.....TAM is not a hookup site nor a place to troll for vulnerable people.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Moderator note:
> 
> Please share the identity of your suspicions with one of us mods so we can look into this.
> 
> ...


I agree with the above. 

If anyone receives PMs from someone hitting on them, the best way to handle it is to forward the PM to a mod (or to all mods). That way we can see what they are saying. 

What's being described here is a bannable offense. But we mods can only do something about it if we are informed about it.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

ShatteredStill said:


> 12 years ago my husband had an affair with a coworker. It was life changing & brutal. I learnt lessons I wish I had never learnt.
> 
> Life carried on. We were pulled back together by tragedies & joys. We had our 2 beautiful children. Everything was great!
> 
> ...


Well said!

I agree with you that those who don't think online affairs is cheating don't know a thing about it. My fWW's EA tore out my heart, just reading the declarations of love, that she couldn't wait to be his wife, her sending him gifts, etc, etc, etc. Even the prayers to God that they will be together someday soon, it was heart wrenching.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

peacem said:


> *I wonder if we are thinking of the same people?*
> 
> This is my last post on TAM. I have thought about whether or not to post this but I'm going to do it because it has irritated me for some time, mainly because of the hypocrisy I see going on here.
> 
> ...


I just want to apologise for what I have written here. The person I was referring to has contacted me and I think there was some misunderstandings and miscommunication plus a bit of paranoia and dramaqueen-ness on my part. I need to think a bit more carefully before posting. Sorry :frown2: x


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

peacem said:


> I just want to apologise for what I have written here. The person I was referring to has contacted me and I think there was some misunderstandings and miscommunication plus a bit of paranoia and dramaqueen-ness on my part. I need to think a bit more carefully before posting. Sorry :frown2: x




So, hopefully you are going to stay with TAM? Right?


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

blueinbr said:


> So, hopefully you are going to stay with TAM? Right?


May or may not. OK yes. :grin2:


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