# BS vs. AP



## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

As a woman, I find it sad that BS and AP alike continue to compete with each other over a man’s affection. The man is a cake-eating cheater anyway. Even if he stops the affair and goes back to his wife, reconciliation is a long and painful journey. I dare say, it’s more difficult to forgive when the guy spends months ‘deciding’ whether to sh*t or get off the pot compared to those who reconcile when WS immediately stops the affair on DDay or stops on his own accord and confess. Even if he leaves his wife and be with AP, lies, deceits and lack of respects are not recipe for successful relationship. Please don’t tell me that the AP does not feel any resentment and hurt thinking about all those months (years) that waited and waited and the cheating bastard went back to his wife. The longer the cheater fence-sitting, the more resentful the AP. 

Yet, women continue to degrade themselves just to ‘win’ the cheater. When he is the one who is supposed to move a mountain to ‘win’ us! He cheated on BS, he lied and manipulated AP (now I know that many AP thinks he is only lying to his wife, but read this forum and it’s often not the case). If he wants to re-commit himself to his wife, he should do all the hard work to earn her forgiveness. If he wants to be with his AP, just fricking leave already. If it’s too difficult to leave, if it’s not that easy (kids, grandkids, mortgage, blab blah blah), then apparently he is not supposed to cheat in the first place. At worst, he is a lying manipulative serial cheater. At best, he is a man who doesn’t know what he wants, wishy washy, and weak. Whining and whining about how bad life at home, but he stays anyway. What is so attractive about a man like this? Seriously? Many women are so focus on winning, they forget to ask themselves whether THEY actually want this guy if both were single. If he was hypothetically ‘available’, no other woman wants him (i.e. you were not married to him if you were a BS or he was single if you were an AP)…would you want a man who is whiny and confused? 

Let me put it this way. If his wife and AP were drowning and he could only save one person. Would you appreciate a man who takes months, sometimes years to make up his mind while both women were gasping for air? Attractive? I think not. 

It is sad to see that women continue to look for validation of her lovability and desirability from a man. I have a man because I want him in my life and happy that he feels the same way. But I really don’t need him or anyone to continue to live and be happy. I know he will be okay with or without me, and vice versa. I know I am attractive, how could I not be? God (Jesus, Yahweh, Buddha, Mother Nature, whatever you want to call it) created me, and I take care of his/her creation. I don’t need a mere mortal (especially a cheater) to validate that. 

I am not going to burn my bra now, I think they are pretty thank you very much. But it would be nice to see more women taking full responsibility of our happiness (and sanity) before we share it with someone else. It sucks to be rejected. Yes, you love him so much. It will break your heart to let him go. Yes yes yes…I am not going to say otherwise. BUT. We have been heartbroken and disappointed before, we don’t always get what we want or things to go our ways all the time. I was hurt, disappointed, heartbroken. But I knew, I would live (with my dignity intact). And we live…and move on. So why is this particular cheating, cake-eating, fence-sitting guy any exception? 

If the BS is male, other male posters here would rally behind him, take charge, kick her out, make her feel what it feels to live without you, if you want to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. But if the BS is female, some encourage her to fight (and the same for AP...they are also encouraged to fight). Fight? Fight for the...cheater? 

Why men must have dignity and HE decide whether he wants to take his cheating wife. But women jump through hoops (and lose her dignity) so HE decides whether he wants to go back to his wife or to AP. I don't get it. 

Let me get off my soapbox now  Cheers.


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## torani (May 6, 2013)

Yep, I agree... I have seen it in real life a lot... The BS and AP fighting over the cheater... instead they should be kicking his hiney to the curb... 

Also, I have seen the BS blame the AP or the AP blame the BS and somewhere in the midst of that the cheater becomes the innocent one... Really? In my opinion the BS and AP need to come together and put the blame where it belongs... on the cheater.. 

Once in college, a very attractive man gave me his phone number, asked me to call him sometime that he would love to take me out on a date.. After a week or so I decided, why not, he was pretty attractive, funny etc... 

So I called, his girlfriend answered the phone.. She was angry with me, grilled me about what I thought I was doing calling her man. 

So I explained the situation and that I was NOT interested in dating a guy who lies or cheats and I also suggested that she also stand up for herself because this guy is obviously a real loser... Her and I became friends... Turns out that guy NEVER was faithful to her even after the two kids they had. She divorced him many years later... I am still surprised it took her that long to figure out what a loser he was...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I divorced a cheater. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have given him a second chance but, like others, I thought he really meant all those pretty things he said.

Females have always been expected to turn a blind eye to "men being men." I think fear of the unknown is a primary reason why females stay in bad marriages.


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## LetDownNTX (Oct 4, 2012)

I wouldnt say that not throwing in the towel means someone is trying to "WIN", especially if you are married to them! Maybe the AP is trying to WIN, but really what are you winning?


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

Isn't that just the nature of the beast? Everybody wants to be the "WINNER"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Julien (Mar 25, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> Yet, women continue to degrade themselves just to ‘win’ the cheater. When he is the one who is supposed to move a mountain to ‘win’ us!


Amen to that!

It doesn't seem to me that it is a gender issue though. Men have the same problem.


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Females have always been expected to turn a blind eye to "men being men." I think fear of the unknown is a primary reason why females stay in bad marriages. I stayed because of my son who was young then. In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea.


Wow, that was one of the things that my W said when I caught her having an A. I honestly haven't seen that here, or in my life.

Maybe it's because my family has always been female dominate (a lot of women, and strong women), but I was actually pushed by my family to R with my W while my sister was pushed to leave her WH when he had an A.

My personal stance is men are not excused just because they are men.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

"I wouldnt say that not throwing in the towel means someone is trying to "WIN", especially if you are married to them! Maybe the AP is trying to WIN, but really what are you winning?"

After my WH's first online affair 16 years ago, when it was all over her said "You won!" I said "What did I win?" He said, "Well, Me" - I said " I won a cheater, lucky me."

I told him just yesterday I have days where I still struggle with my decision to try again, but I will not put up with betrayal again, I won't, and he knows it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Onmyway said:


> Wow, that was one of the things that my W said when I caught her having an A. I honestly haven't seen that here, or in my life.
> 
> Maybe it's because my family has always been female dominate (a lot of women, and strong women), but I was actually pushed by my family to R with my W while my sister was pushed to leave her WH when he had an A.
> 
> ...


They absolutely should not be excused but historically they have been. That's part of the double standard. 

Men were felt to have trouble controlling their sex drive and so they were often excused for cheating (and their wives overlooked it). Women were felt to not care as much about sex and they were not excused (and their husbands usually didn't overlook it).


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Everafter2013 said:


> Yet, women continue to degrade themselves just to ‘win’ the cheater.


I think men do the same. Losing their wife is making him out to be a total loser and that shocks our pride.



Everafter2013 said:


> Many women are so focus on winning…


Is this really true? Focused on winning or scared of losing their security?



Everafter2013 said:


> Let me put it this way. If his wife and AP were drowning and he could only save one person. Would you appreciate a man who takes months, sometimes years to make up his mind while both women were gasping for air?


Easy, I think he’d immediately snap out of dreamland and save his wife. Sexually, men tend to live in a dream world.



Everafter2013 said:


> It is sad to see that women continue to look for validation of her lovability and desirability from a man. I have a man because I want him in my life and happy that he feels the same way. But I really don’t need him or anyone to continue to live and be happy. I know he will be okay with or without me, and vice versa. I know I am attractive, how could I not be? God (Jesus, Yahweh, Buddha, Mother Nature, whatever you want to call it) created me, and I take care of his/her creation. I don’t need a mere mortal (especially a cheater) to validate that.


I really like this paragraph. Even though we are created to be with a mate, it isn’t a mandatory. And besides, I’ll bet you 99.9% of betrayed spouses would be happier without their betrayer but, like me, never see though their own fog and lose out on a lot of happiness after the pain.



Everafter2013 said:


> If the BS is male, other male posters here would rally behind him, take charge, kick her out, make her feel what it feels to live without you, if you want to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it.


I kept my betrayer around because she was the center of my world and I was deeply in love with her. I simply didn’t want to believe what was staring me in the face and screaming at me- that she was a no damn good betrayer. I had to put up with it 3 times before I saw the light. 



Everafter2013 said:


> Let me get off my soapbox now  Cheers.


Well, it was a worthy and well spoken rant.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Maybe it's, I dunno ... penis size...LOL!!!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

As a BH, I would second the post by thatbpguy.

One interesting fact is that the majority of divorce filing is done by women. I have read it is about 2/3 to 3/4 of the time.

The battle we have for over a cheating spouse likely is a reaction we have to save our status quo. A broken home is usually not a goal that any of us have when we envision our lives.

Maybe the physical cheating shatters a man's ego more than a woman's. It is often said that women are more hurt by the cheating on the emotional connection. Not sure, but it does seem women generally are more forgiving of a purely sexual betrayal.

Honestly I think most men on TAM would champion a woman to D a husband that can't prove himself faithful. JMHO.

Fighting over a cheater only rewards the cheater. Amen to that.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Based on what we see here at TAM, I'd say we have a lot of men who are BS who are killing themselves trying to win their cheating wife back, so I'm not they are following the double standard in real life.

I do not personally accept the men will be men as play around excuse.

It is interesting though that thie men will be men, is often cited by the OW AP as an excuse, and cited by WW as an excuse on why what they are up to isn't as bad as people first say.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

The fight for a spouse was supposed to be over the day "I do" is said. The fight for the family replaces it. I couldn't fight OW for my husband because I had no idea she was there and he knew if I knew, he would be history. I did not fight her for him. I never believed any man was worth fighting for. (If she was fighting for him she was fighting herself because I told her to take him and go.) A marriage is possibly worth fighting for but not a man or woman, IMO. I teach my daughters that.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

torani said:


> Yep, I agree... I have seen it in real life a lot... The BS and AP fighting over the cheater... instead they should be kicking his hiney to the curb...
> 
> Also, I have seen the BS blame the AP or the AP blame the BS and somewhere in the midst of that *the cheater becomes the innocent *one... Really? In my opinion the BS and AP need to come together and put the blame where it belongs... on the cheater..
> 
> ...


That. Unless the AP didn't know he was married/in a relationship, I don't blame BS who gets mad at AP. It's understandable. It's so unfair that (single) AP gets to move on like nothing happened and the BS must deal with the ruins of her marriage. But not to the point that BS rugs sweeping what her WS did and just blamed it on AP. If I must say, majority of blame is on WS, but anger can be divided equally  Someone just found out that their spouse is a cheater, they get to be angry even if the AP doesn't like it. They didn't like anyone sleeping with their spouse either, but the AP did it anyway. No double standards please. But the ultimate blame must be on the cheating spouse. 

Good that she knew exactly whose fault it was.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I am now divorced from a cheater. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have given him a second chance but, like others, I thought he really meant all those pretty things he said.
> 
> Females have always been expected to turn a blind eye to *"men being men.*" I think fear of the unknown is a primary reason why females stay in bad marriages. I stayed because of my son who was young then. In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea.


It is sickening to hear that. I am pretty sure female BS also has needs that the WS doesn't fulfil. Yet the WS strays, and the BS doesn't. 

My ex fiance grandmother called to ask me to give her grandson another chance. Citing "wedding jitter." I didn't want to be disrespectful, but I quickly excused myself because I was about to explode at the poor woman.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Calibre12 said:


> The fight for a spouse was supposed to be over the day "I do" is said. The fight for the family replaces it. I couldn't fight OW for my husband because I had no idea she was there and he knew if I knew, he would be history. I did not fight her for him. I never believed any man was worth fighting for. (If she was fighting for him she was fighting herself because I told her to take him and go.) A marriage is possibly worth fighting for but not a man or woman, IMO. I teach my daughters that.


Very good post! Words to live by for both women and men. 

This is the essence of the 180, manning-up, being alpha, and all of those other debated terms. Lol! Strong women are sexy. 

This is a great post to illustrate that! Keep up the good work!!!


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

LetDownNTX said:


> I wouldnt say that not throwing in the towel means someone is trying to "WIN", especially if you are married to them! Maybe the AP is trying to WIN, but really what are you winning?


I am not referring to those whose husbands are remorseful and actually want to "fight for" the marriage. If BS thinks years of marriage, children, and him all in all as her husband/father of her children are worth fighting for, I command her strength. Her husband must be so lucky to have a woman with a big heart like that. It's easier to forgive and walk away than to forgive and stay with someone who has hurt you (I took the easier way out). 

I am talking about female BS who is actually "fighting with" the AP to get her cheating husband back. If AP gives him this and that kind of sex, she will do it too. Pretending to be this Stepford wife, who is not only betrayed, her heart is broken, her life is turned upside down, she tries her best to keep everything as normal as possible for her children. On top of that, she also spends her energy to pretend to be this sexy kitten where everything is fun. It is just a matter of time before a woman like that crashes and burns because she puts her emotional wellbeing way low in her priority. "I can hardly breathe, dammit, I get to be selfish and put myself first." Is it so bad to think this way? Plus, how is that any different from "fantasy la la land" that OW offers him? So the WS gets to have sex with both women, and then awarded by two women who kiss the ground he walks on? How about he kisses the BS's arse? 

All I am saying, make changes if we regret the person we have become. But do it for ourselves...BE the sexy kitten, fun, strong and independent woman. Don't pretend to be one just so he will think we are one. We cannot keep the charade forever, isn't it better to actually be that person for ourselves? Not for the cheater? If he notices it, great...maybe there is still something to salvage there. If he doesn't...a quality man will notice that smart, sexy and strong woman. Isn't it what the 180 is about? Do it for ourselves. Don't do it to make him or her come back. If he comes back, great. If he doesn't come back...it doesn't matter because it's not about him anymore. I have seen women too busy appeasing the cheating husband, he gets to cheat, two women jumping through hoops to boost his ego and get this...no consequences whatsoever for his betrayal. He doesn't even have to face questions from his BS. How is it any help for reconciliation? What he learns is: I can do whatever I want. If I threaten her I'll leave, she will jump higher. 

Manipulation may work for a while...but ultimately the true color shows. That's why many WS who leaves for their AP come to regret their decision. All that sweet talk, all that acrobatic sex, once they settle down and reality kicking in,...the relationship is not that different from that with their BS. The same with BS. All that sweet talk, eventually when he comes back, we will want to ask questions, why, how could you. It's better he knows beforehand that yes, those are the consequences he must face if he wants to come back. Here is what I will do to fix our marriage...but here is what YOU must do to show me that you are worth a second chance. Take it or leave it. 

I am of the opinion you cannot nice your way into reconciliation. Someone cannot love us if we don't love yourself, cannot respect us if we don't respect ourselves. If there is no consequence for their behaviour, if they don't realize what at stake, if they don't realize that they must change before they lose everything they love, they will not stop...if not with the same AP, with another AP.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

LdyVenus said:


> Isn't that just the nature of the beast? Everybody wants to be the "WINNER"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree.

But it's better to compete for things that really matter and healthy right? Triathlon perhaps? I don't think a cheater is worth competing for.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Everafter2013 said:


> ...but here is what YOU must do to show me that you are worth a second chance. Take it or leave it.
> 
> I am of the opinion you cannot nice your way into reconciliation. Someone cannot love us if we don't love yourself, cannot respect us if we don't respect ourselves. If there is no consequence for their behaviour, if they don't realize what at stake, if they don't realize that they must change before they lose everything they love, they will not stop...if not with the same AP, with another AP.


Bingo!

I realize this is a thread by a woman for women. It is also good to see your views looking at men is the same as my perspective of women.

Thanks for sharing your views. I am sure it is helpful to many.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shaggy said:


> It is interesting though that thie men will be men, is often cited by the OW AP as an excuse, and cited by WW as an excuse on why what they are up to isn't as bad as people first say.


Reading AP and OW's excuses, they are quite mind-boggling. Here is another one: "I didn't mean it, it just happened."

I never buy that. 

Once my childhood friend gave me a lift. His wife and my partner know we are just friends, and we used to hang out together. Out of nowhere, he told me that he and his wife haven't had sex in over a year. For some reason, I felt so uncomfortable. I couldn't put my finger on it, but I knew something was icky there. I was thinking to myself "omg...why does he have to talk about THAT. I don't want to know THAT." We have been friends since we were 5, we have always updated each other about our jobs, our travelling, our parents and siblings, and our partners, but never about each other's sex life. So it was really odd. I thanked him for the lift and have never seen him again. I told my partner about it, he said my buddy was hitting on me. Then I realised why I felt uncomfortable...because it was inappropriate for him to mention that. That's something he needed to discuss with his wife, definitely not to his opposite-sex friend. There was no appropriate reason for him to mention that to me, at all. 

So, in every affair...no matter how it begins, there must be THAT moment, a moment when you make a decision to back off (or go off on him because it is inappropriate, or just flee like I did because I didn't really know what it was...but I knew it was odd) or say go to hell to everything and dive in. It never just happens.


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## Everafter2013 (Feb 11, 2013)

Calibre12 said:


> The fight for a spouse was supposed to be over the day "I do" is said. The fight for the family replaces it. I couldn't fight OW for my husband because I had no idea she was there and he knew if I knew, he would be history. I did not fight her for him. I never believed any man was worth fighting for. (If she was fighting for him she was fighting herself because I told her to take him and go.) A marriage is possibly worth fighting for but not a man or woman, IMO. *I teach my daughters* that.


Your daughters are lucky to have a great mother like you, and you them.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

BS compete for their spouse whether they admit it or not. The sheer fact that you stay means you are willing to fight for your marriage. What else does it mean? Fighting by definition is some level of competition. I read about it here EVERY SINGLE DAY. Especially from male BS's.

It is crushing for your spouse to want someone else. We spend large amounts of time trying to figure out why, what's wrong with me, etc. It comes with the territory. But I also see where you are coming from. I am not sure how a WS can ever believe the BS will leave if we never do and keep taking them back. 

I know as much as I say it, he can't really believe it since I keep taking him back. I hope he doesn't hurt me again but have little faith it won't happen again. I want my marriage but I also don't want his OW to know how much I was hurt. Its important for me to know she believes my husband chose to come back to me. He never told me who she was. He protected her image to the bitter end. To this day that bugs me, I had to investigate myself to discover her identity, and they had already broke up. So yes, I fight for my marriage because I love him and do not want anyone else in the picture.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> If the BS is male, other male posters here would rally behind him, take charge, kick her out, make her feel what it feels to live without you, if you want to save your marriage you must be willing to lose it. But if the BS is female, some encourage her to fight (and the same for AP...they are also encouraged to fight). Fight? Fight for the...cheater?
> 
> Why men must have dignity and HE decide whether he wants to take his cheating wife. But women jump through hoops (and lose her dignity) so HE decides whether he wants to go back to his wife or to AP. I don't get it.
> 
> Let me get off my soapbox now  Cheers.


*PREFACE:* I have not read every thread on this forum. 

That being said I have not read any threads where this would be such a blanket statement. 

I have read threads that would suggest what could be done to fix a marriage, but it was always expressed in a way where the OP would understand that anything attempted would only work if the Wayward spouse was looking to get back. 

And honestly these techniques, ideas or schemes would work regardless of gender. 

NC letter

180 by BS

Counseling, Therapy 

So I take a very slight offense to be pigeon holed in with every other man. Everyone should be happy, have dignity and have someone who loves them and respects them.


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## beautiful_day (Mar 28, 2013)

I had no idea I was in a competition. As soon as I realized I was, I neatly sashayed out of the way, calling over my shoulder "I'm not playing that game. I'm done. I hope you'll both be very happy together". 

He's staying at her house ... he has nowhere else to go. I expect she thinks all her dreams have come true ... she's won at last. 

As we still have joint finances (fixing that next week hopefully), I saw yesterday that he's signed up with Zoosk! I don't care enough to tell her.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Everafter,

This is something I have seen many times in my life. I have never understood it. It is one of the things that most puzzles me about women to this day.

Especially since my own experience seems to suggest that the bigger a player and loser the POS is, the HARDER and more vicious the women struggle for them.

I have always scratched my head in total bewilderment at it.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

LdyVenus said:


> Isn't that just the nature of the beast? Everybody wants to be the "WINNER"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent point LV - bravo, so true.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

beautiful_day said:


> I had no idea I was in a competition. As soon as I realized I was, I neatly sashayed out of the way, calling over my shoulder "I'm not playing that game. I'm done. I hope you'll both be very happy together".
> 
> He's staying at her house ... he has nowhere else to go. I expect she thinks all her dreams have come true ... she's won at last.
> 
> As we still have joint finances (fixing that next week hopefully), I saw yesterday that he's signed up with Zoosk! I don't care enough to tell her.


The booby prize is what she won.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Everafter2013 said:


> Reading AP and OW's excuses, they are quite mind-boggling. Here is another one: "I didn't mean it, it just happened."
> 
> I never buy that.
> 
> ...


Yes, the thing is you were not in a receptive state because you are obviously "content". When the WS is unhappy and the AP puts out the feelers ( "I haven't had sex....") - bingo. You could think logically and maturely. I can sort of get that "It just happened" in that sense when 2 volatile elements meet. But there is no excuse, certainly not when they go back for seconds and thirds. I have more trouble with the classic line - "It didn't mean anything....". That is total BS. Everything means something and something like that means a hell of a lot.


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## Brokenshadow (May 3, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I am now divorced from a cheater. If I had it to do over, I wouldn't have given him a second chance but, like others, I thought he really meant all those pretty things he said.
> 
> Females have always been expected to turn a blind eye to "men being men." I think fear of the unknown is a primary reason why females stay in bad marriages. I stayed because of my son who was young then. In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea.


Strong women are the best women. My family name is very old. In fact, as far as I can tell, I'm the only man who has ever had my first and last name. Centuries ago, my nordic ancestors found their way to the northern part of western Europe, likely via a longboat (etymology of my family name is translated as "of the sea"). Long story slightly shorter, these brawlers, warriors, expected their women to fight as fiercely add they did. They expected the valkyries to collect them if they fell in war. They were strong, fearsome women, much like yourself I am sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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