# Modern Men (Warning...long)



## Boogsie

I've been on marriage sites like this one for years trying to figure out what was wrong with my marriage. Over the last 13 years the relationship dynamic has changed between my wife and I. 

I did everything that is considered the gold standard to try to put us back on the right course. I helped with the cleaning, I cooked, I did dishes, helped with the laundry, prepared surprise romantic dinners, teased her, left love notes, everything everyone suggests to try to "get her in the mood".

Nothing worked. My wife never really flat out rejected me much. Mostly she just ignored my advances, which, to be honest, was worse than straight rejections. I did have my share of rejection but more often than not she would just ignore me.

I blamed her for a lot of the problems. It was her fault I was our sex life sucked, it was her fault I wasn't happy.

Then I started stumbling across posts from different men on the forums I had visited. People like MEM, BigBadWolf, and others. The things they said seemed alien to me at the time.

When I was growing up, my mother was the authority figure in the home. My dad was a passive, hard working, honest man who never really made a decision of his own in his life. At times though, he held a lot of anger. He was passive-aggressive, but not often. Never abusive, and always terrified of making my mother angry. I would always hear him telling his friends and co-workers, "I can't do that, it would upset my wife." To me, this was normal. And it was, with all my male relatives. Their wives ran the house, the husbands brought home the money in most cases.

To get to the point, most of the men in my family, circle of friends, and co-workers were this exact same way...and so was I.

From the time I was a boy, I was taught to treat women like princesses. To put them on a pedestal. I was taught to treat my sister different than I would treat my brother. Taking queues from my male role models, I learned that the way to make a woman deliriously happy was to give in to her every whim. To do everything she asked, even if I it was the last thing I wanted to do, because it made them happy. I was that, and I saw it through example. This "education" translated to others as well. If anyone would ask me for help, I was there. I would do anything for anyone, and I did.

From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.

I eventually noticed quite a few threads around the net referring to a book called "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I bought it and read it and in that book I found the balance I was thought was missing.

My problem was the true lack of a MALE role model in growing up. There were few MEN that I could have looked to. My maternal Grandfather was the only on.

You, I learned the problem with most modern men (the last two or three generations) is that we have, for the most part, lost how to actually be men.

We have no boundaries to what type of behaviors are unacceptable to us. We put up with nagging, *****ing, public scolding, and a whole laundry list of other things. Why? Because we don't have the balls to draw the line in fear of "angering the wife". We have no regard for our OWN happiness, and therefore, most of us are miserable in relationships.

We do everything for our wives and nothing for ourselves. We say things like, "Honey, I'd really like to have a new XXXX. Can I buy one please?" Exactly like we did when we were little boys. I don't know what woman finds actions such as this attractive.

The other thing that women I've talked to find irritating and unattractive is the old, "I don't care, whatever you want." This ranges from wanting input on paint colors for the house to where to go for dinner. We have an opinion, why are we afraid to express it? This example, I believe, is a woman offering her man an opportunity to lead. Women WILL test us to see if we are willing to 1) lead 2) protect and 3) provide.

I will admit, through almost all of my marriage, I was a solid provider, but that was it. I gave up all my friends and hobbies, for my wife. This always gnawed at me, but I was "taught" this was the way things were.

After looking at all the married men around me and having my eyes opened, I saw it was the way things were, but not the way things "should" be. All the things I was expected to give up, and that my wife didn't approve of, she had, and I didn't.

Where I asked permission to buy something, she just bought it. Where I asked permission to go out, she just told me and went.

Slowly, over time, she lost all sexual interest in me, but she was happy with the life I provide her and she was ok with things the way they were. After finally figuring myself out, and finally understanding what she really wanted from me, I started changing. So far, it has been tough for us both. She resists because I'm upsetting her apple cart. I'm taking her out of her comfort zone, but I finally realized that was NOT the life I wanted to lead. I WILL not lead that life, even if it means parting ways.

It was an eye opening day when I realized all the men I was surrounded by, myself included, had no balls. We were/are AFRAID of our wives and would not stand up for ourselves for anything. We are getting exactly the life we deserve.

Oddly enough, I notice it everywhere now and it is a constant reminder to keep working on myself. If you want to know what I'm talking about, watch any of the husband / wife type sitcoms on TV. 

I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.

Anyway, I see a lot of the same traits from most of the men that post here who have the same problems I'm trying to correct now. I'm having some success, but its going to be a long road. 

We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.


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## themrs

Great post! I really hope things work out for you.


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## BigBadWolf

Boogsie, your post needs to be read by every good man on this board.

I am interested to see what can be helpful to present the balance I am seeing you type, as this comes up now and then.

I know that MEM11363 is more articulate and detailed on these things perhaps, as for my posts, there are reasons I am narrow in focus more on attitude than details. Plus i type as quickly as I can to keep up with my thinking and as with everyone time is limited!

Some of these things are deliberate, as I cannot tell any other man too specifics as how to behave, for what good is telling someone to be a good leader that they need to be told what to do, that is contradictory!

Only to give the hints and encouragement to become their own leader, that is the seed that needs to be sown, much like as every body of water must find it's own level, to force some things is just futile and would be dishonest.

So if you and any other good man are reading these things, and maybe not understanding but taking it to action to read and study and conclude for yourself what this means for you if at all beneficial, then by all definitions I would not hope for anything greater! 

As for the role models, you are speaking truth. 

The television in our home is turned off more than it is on. I am very quick to express my opinion in front of my woman as well as my sons and daughter when a man is shown weak or as a bumbling idiot (as quickly also I do not approve of women shown degraded or abused for entertainment). 

Growing up, I was fortunate to see very strong men in my family, my father and my brothers and even distant relatives, although to be fair I do not know if the marriages were even then in balance even with strong men, as even so there was divorce and I am the only sibling who is still married to my first wife.

So maybe for balance, understand I am sitting here on the couch, my wife is out running errands with the youngest children, and she has recently texted me how much she is desiring us to be together again, and I have just texted her back something naughty and very innappropriate and that will make her blush, and she will love it.

So understand in this all played out, is not always some epic struggle that must be forced and orchestrated, nor is the dominant man in the relationship playing a game or putting on a front.

Quite the opposite.

For once the dominant man is in motion in the relationship, and this starts with attitude and is built with the tools of behavior and action, it is as a river flowing downhill. 

Natural and beautiful, but powerful, as it flows effortlessly not only from it's own strength, but with the strength of the natural forces that pull and guide it and direct it as well.

I wish you well.


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## cherrypie18

Oh yes a lot of men these days need to get their balls back. Seems like their mothers crushed them while they were still little boys. 
Women don't need a sissy guy who asks her for permission to go out (no offense to anyone I guess). We want men who put down rules, not in disrespectful ways that is and have lots of self respect, but not to the extent that their ego controls them to the very core. We don't want someone who cheats, abuses and disregards us. But we also don't need a maid, and a girlfriend...at least I personally don't. I never asked my husband to do laundry, iron, do dishes or any type of house work. He only helped me with heavy lifting and reaching places that were too high for me. Oh and I HATE it when men gossip in front of women. Total turn off lol 

The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.


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## Karelise

Thank you so much for this post Boogsie! I'm a woman in a new marriage, and I posted a thread very closely related to this. The insight you have on your marriage is very helpful. I constantly try to get attention from my H, and he ignores the advances, and like you, I've given everything up for him. I'm not going to try to "learn how to be a man", but I am going to try to build myself up and get my own life so that he can add to that happiness. Thank you again for this post, I have hope now, not just worry.


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## greenpearl

I am sick of women's complaining. I know if any women read this post, will be offended by me. Do I care? Tell you honestly, I am sick of their attitude towards their men. 
What you said in your post is very true. Men put up a lot with their wives. They are taught to let ladies go first. 
Generally speaking, women are more jealous, vain. They can't let things go. If you let a woman run your life, wrong wrong wrong! They'll just make your household full of problems. 
I have noticed, it is usually mother-in-law doesn't get along with daughter-in-law, not father-in-law with son-in-law. It is usually sisters-in-law don't get along, not brothers-in-law. It is usually women don't get along, and they make their husbands take their side. I am a woman, I feel sad being a woman, not proud of us women. 

My husband learned from his father by not doing what his father did. He never let me wear the pants. I actually respect him even more. He respects me, but he makes the decision. He listens to my advice, but he makes the decision. If I act silly, he'll point out. He won't let me continue my stupidity. Man, it hurts when he points out my stupidity. But I don't dare to step on his head. He is four years younger than me, but in many ways he is mature and manly. He made mistakes also, he recognized and tried to change. 
For a relationship, never let other people boss you around, but respect their opinion. 
You make you own luck. You make your own happiness. That's what my husband says all the time.


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## cherrypie18

I don't think mother-daughter in law problems have much to do with men and their wifes controlling them. I mean, mothers in law, most of them are well, jerks, who want to put you down because you took their little ball-less baby away from them lol And the husband SHOULD take his wife's side if he wants to maintain a family. It doesn't have so much to do with the wife trying to control her husband, as she is trying to make the b**ch of her mother in law piss of and let her live in peace and raise her kids and be the wife she wants and needs to be. Story of my life haha


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## Trenton

> The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.


This is the crux of the problem. There was a time when men had all their balls but ignored the needs of the women by their side and took advantage of their woman's work and love which eventually lead to revolt and the loss of their balls because women realized that men had it a hell of a lot better than women did. Unfortunately, this confused gender roles and created women who feel they need to behave like men to be respected like a man.

In my relationship it's about equality but we recognize that we want very different things. Allow me my loves and I will make you feel like a man like never before. Be faithful, caring and wise and I will worship you in the bedroom and in other ways too. You won't ask for a motorcycle because if you mention you want one I will want to go out and buy the motorcycle of your dreams for you.

If you belittle me, take advantage of or try to control me, ignore my femininity or disregard me then I will not make you feel like a man because you're not. I will nag you and I will moan in indifference or disgust when you try to touch me. It's because you will disgust me and you're not my partner in any way besides by law.


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## greenpearl

Something crossed my mind today. Men haven't changed much. But women have changed a lot. They are not submissive anymore. They think they are just as good as men. So men also should adapt to the change, and figure out a way to deal with their women!


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## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Something crossed my mind today. Men haven't changed much. But women have changed a lot. They are not submissive anymore. They think they are just as good as men. So men also should adapt to the change, and figure out a way to deal with their women!


Women are as good as men but in different ways. The two need to figure this out together and nurture their differences and similarities. 

I had a conversation earlier with my husband over dinner about this thread and the first thing he said was that although men and women are fundamentally different, our individual personalities also play a role and to ignore this would also be an injustice. I think each couple is different but the pattern we set in society is crucial to the well being of all of us.


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## MEM2020

*The rules*

If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger. 
2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them. 
4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence. 
5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.
6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.
10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.
11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent. 
12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner. 
13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language. 










BigBadWolf said:


> Boogsie, your post needs to be read by every good man on this board.
> 
> I am interested to see what can be helpful to present the balance I am seeing you type, as this comes up now and then.
> 
> I know that MEM11363 is more articulate and detailed on these things perhaps, as for my posts, there are reasons I am narrow in focus more on attitude than details. Plus i type as quickly as I can to keep up with my thinking and as with everyone time is limited!
> 
> Some of these things are deliberate, as I cannot tell any other man too specifics as how to behave, for what good is telling someone to be a good leader that they need to be told what to do, that is contradictory!
> 
> Only to give the hints and encouragement to become their own leader, that is the seed that needs to be sown, much like as every body of water must find it's own level, to force some things is just futile and would be dishonest.
> 
> So if you and any other good man are reading these things, and maybe not understanding but taking it to action to read and study and conclude for yourself what this means for you if at all beneficial, then by all definitions I would not hope for anything greater!
> 
> As for the role models, you are speaking truth.
> 
> The television in our home is turned off more than it is on. I am very quick to express my opinion in front of my woman as well as my sons and daughter when a man is shown weak or as a bumbling idiot (as quickly also I do not approve of women shown degraded or abused for entertainment).
> 
> Growing up, I was fortunate to see very strong men in my family, my father and my brothers and even distant relatives, although to be fair I do not know if the marriages were even then in balance even with strong men, as even so there was divorce and I am the only sibling who is still married to my first wife.
> 
> So maybe for balance, understand I am sitting here on the couch, my wife is out running errands with the youngest children, and she has recently texted me how much she is desiring us to be together again, and I have just texted her back something naughty and very innappropriate and that will make her blush, and she will love it.
> 
> So understand in this all played out, is not always some epic struggle that must be forced and orchestrated, nor is the dominant man in the relationship playing a game or putting on a front.
> 
> Quite the opposite.
> 
> For once the dominant man is in motion in the relationship, and this starts with attitude and is built with the tools of behavior and action, it is as a river flowing downhill.
> 
> Natural and beautiful, but powerful, as it flows effortlessly not only from it's own strength, but with the strength of the natural forces that pull and guide it and direct it as well.
> 
> I wish you well.


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## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Women are as good as men but in different ways. The two need to figure this out together and nurture their differences and similarities.
> 
> I had a conversation earlier with my husband over dinner about this thread and the first thing he said was that although men and women are fundamentally different, our individual personalities also play a role and to ignore this would also be an injustice. I think each couple is different but the pattern we set in society is crucial to the well being of all of us.


I agree that women are as good as men but in different ways.

Hey, we are mothers of sons. Men come from us!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

But we do have to respect men's authority at home. They should be leaders of the houses. I don't challenge my husband's decision. For example, I wanted to buy an apartment, my husband said no, he had his reasons for not buying a place far away from his country, I didn't persist. But later on he realized that it is important for us to buy an apartment, I was all happy to do it right away. Now he is all happy about our lovely home, and for the most part, he respects me for not annoying him and for suggesting the idea. 

You have a wonderful relationship with your husband.
Congratulations!!! 

Really hope more happy people on this planet, and less complain!


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## F-102

Hey Boogsie, read yer post. I like it.
I too, was someone who treated my wife like a queen, did everything, and thought I would reap the rewards.
Then found the rewards lacking. I did get resentful of her, accused her of not wanting to please me, feeling "safe" so that she wouldn't have to try, being the gunman on the grassy knoll, etc...
Then one day, I was watching a talk show, and the man had the same problem we both had-trying to get her in the mood and getting nothing in return. The wife said she wanted to divorce.
Of course, I sympathized with him and wanted to see her get what for, I thought he was a good man. Then the rest of the story came out-he had cheated on her before, was verbally and emotionally abusive, even physically at times, and the kids hated him because he was always yelling at everyone. Needless to say, I was rooting for her by the end.
But she said something that changed my attitude. She said that he did everything-cooked, cleaned, did dishes. He did it all. She never had a chance to do anything, because he always beat her to the punch. And the host asked if he hadn't done those "nice guy" things, would it have been different. She said it certainly would have, she would have felt more useful. She even said that it felt like she was "castrated" by him.
I think "cast iron skillet up the side of the head" would be the best analogy.
So, I talked it over with the wife, and she felt that, yes, I was "stealing her job", and I cooled the jets. I didn't cold shoulder her or start acting like a jerk "Yo, b****, get me a drink!", but I did start doing less. 
Why didn't I do this sooner?!? Almost overnight, it seemed we had an easier time taliking, we got closer, started enjoying each other's company, and yes, the sex is better-even turns out that she's willing to do it more than I wanted!
Things are not perfect (who we kidding, never will be), but I feel that things have definitely gotten better since I started to "man up."


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## greeneyeddolphin

I have to say, as a woman, there are some things that BBW has said that I don't agree with, that if my boyfriend did them (or any other man I were ever in a relationship with), it would be the end of our relationship. 

At the same time, though, there are a lot of good points to this. I don't want to be with a weak man who's always going to do what I want, never want to risk my anger or frustration, and set aside his own happiness and well-being as a result. No, I don't want to be completely left out or ignored in decision making, I don't want him pursuing his happiness in the arms of another woman, or anything like that. But I want him to be strong enough, man enough, to make a decision and stick by it even if I disagree. That becomes one of those "I disagree with your decision but I will still support you" moments. No, I don't like arguing or fighting with him, but I'd rather argue or fight every now and then than to find out he was miserable for years and years because he did what I wanted or what he thought I would want to avoid those arguments or fights. 

I think men need to definitely find that balance. I sometimes look at how my grandfather treats my grandmother, or even my dad treats my mom, and I think that I couldn't handle it. But then, my boyfriend will do that every now and then and I do handle it. But if he did it constantly, I'd have to kill him.  It's all about balance.


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## greenpearl

cherrypie18 said:


> I don't think mother-daughter in law problems have much to do with men and their wifes controlling them. I mean, mothers in law, most of them are well, jerks, who want to put you down because you took their little ball-less baby away from them lol And the husband SHOULD take his wife's side if he wants to maintain a family. It doesn't have so much to do with the wife trying to control her husband, as she is trying to make the b**ch of her mother in law piss of and let her live in peace and raise her kids and be the wife she wants and needs to be. Story of my life haha


Cherrypie 

I just read a post from a Chinese forum. It is about a mother-in-law from China. Some Taiwanese mothers-in-law are terrible to their daughters-in-law. In china, it is somewhat in between, depends. This one is ridiculous, the woman really has a reason to feel sad. 

In China, because of one-child policy, children are very spoiled , especially boys. Chinese favor boys over girls because of a lot of issues. 

This woman's husband still sleeps with his mother when his mother is around. He doesn't want to sleep with his wife, he sleeps with his mother, with only underwear. The wife felt very uncomfortable, so she tried to talk to him. He got himself drunk and he was crying and crying: I want my mom, I want my mom, I want my mom..............The woman really didn't know what to do. She just gave birth to a child, she doesn't know where she should go. I would rather believe this is a joke, but I know I have to believe this is true. It is not the first time I have seen stuff like this. 

I miss my country. China has a great history. China is also developing very fast. In many ways, China is just as good as western countries now. But the stupidity of some people really makes me shake my head and I don't feel proud of it!!!


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## sisters359

Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions. 

If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles. 

I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons. 

Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck. 

I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things. 

I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy. 

I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.


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## cherrypie18

sisters359 said:


> Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.
> 
> If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.
> 
> I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.
> 
> Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.
> 
> I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.
> 
> I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.
> 
> I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.


The point is not dominating each other but dominating the situation. And women tend to like confident men who can take care of things. We don't want to be dominated and told what to do and when to inhale and exhale. You got it all wrong. We do want our men to be helpful but not to the point where they become doormats. They need to learn when to stop and say no instead of kissing our butts to please us. 


And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.


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## Conrad

*Re: The rules*



MEM11363 said:


> If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
> 1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger.
> 2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
> 3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them.
> 4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence.
> 5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.
> 6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
> 7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
> 8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
> 9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.
> 10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.
> 11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent.
> 12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner.
> 13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.


MEM,

I find this to be true also.

Strange that she tells me I've been behaving "like an ass", but I can see things turning to the good.

I kissed her ass for a couple of years and looked for her to make me happy.

The answers lie within.


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## MEM2020

Sis,
Life just never is truly 50-50 in a marriage. If it was - perfectly 50-50 we would deadlock every single time we disagree. But that doesn't happen right? 

So - sorry - but much as you hate the word - SOMEONE dominates the situation every time they get their way when the two parties disagree on how to proceed. 

In my marriage it is 80-20. She gets her way at least 80 percent of the time. Fine by me. The 20 percent is the stuff that matters to me and in those cases we either do it my way or compromise in a way that I am happy with. 

I have a simple and common scenario that most of the "nice guys" here simply have totally lost the ability to pull off. When I want to do something "new/different" I always give my W right of first refusal. We went on an extended family (her extended family) vacation a few summers back. I told her in advance that I was going to spend a day white water rafting. Now she has always told me she doesn't like rafting. I told her I would her company if she wanted to give it a shot, but was fine going without her if not. 

She chose not to go but didn't for a moment think to try to discourage me from going - because 
1. She is a good wife and
2. I would react very badly to her saying she didn't want to go and then trying to convince ME not to go

So my brother in law and I went had a great time. We came back that night and he and I were planning to go kayaking the next day. Funny thing - she asked to come - which was great. She came and we had the best time. He and I tipped over and she didn't. Quite funny really. 

Back to being dominant. There are situations where you can only either go left or right. There IS no compromise in those situations. SOMEONE has to dominate. The nice guys posting - they have lost the ability to do that. 






sisters359 said:


> Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.
> 
> If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.
> 
> I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.
> 
> Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.
> 
> I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.
> 
> I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.
> 
> I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.


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## MEM2020

CP,
Exactly right. I dominate the situation - not the person. And even then ONLY when it is important to me. Most of the time it isn't and SHE is dominating the situation.





cherrypie18 said:


> The point is not dominating each other but dominating the situation. And women tend to like confident men who can take care of things. We don't want to be dominated and told what to do and when to inhale and exhale. You got it all wrong. We do want our men to be helpful but not to the point where they become doormats. They need to learn when to stop and say no instead of kissing our butts to please us.
> 
> 
> And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.


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## Conrad

Here's how a guy knows he's in trouble...

He feels it necessary to apologize for his emotional overreactions AND feels it necessary to apologize for doing things that "make her" overreact.

If this sounds like you, keep reading.

Couples need to be "equally yoked". No matter how much males want to "fix things", you simply cannot own the emotional response of another person.

It will drive you insane.

JD


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## OhGeesh

sisters359 said:


> Honestly, what is wrong with some of you? Treat each other like adults--no ADULT wants to be dominated. Grow up and take responsbility for your own decisions.
> 
> If you must dominate to feel like a man, then you are acting like a boy. A man can feel manly without having to dominate another. If you disrespect a man because he does his fair share at home, then you are acting like a silly little girl who thinks people are trapped in roles.
> 
> I don't like a man or woman who cries out of anger, fear, or frustration. Children cry for those reasons.
> 
> Men like sexually aggressive women just as much as women like sexually agressive men--any man who does not has some issues b/c he needs to feel "in control" to feel sexual. Seriously, how many PEOPLE actually enjoy passive sexual partners? Yuck.
> 
> I would take everything that MEM says about MEN and say women should do the same. If your man takes out his bad mood on you, stand up for yourself. Geez, it's not rocket science--it's what strong, mentally healthy adults DO. Neither men nor women should let another person "dominate" them and frankly, if you do, you are acting CHILDISHLY and really need examine the very faulty nature of your assumptions about humans, sexuality, history, and a number of other things.
> 
> I completely support the men who are tired of being pushed around by their wives and want to stand up for themselves. I have NO tolerance for the argument, however, that standing UP for one's self somehow means you must DOMINATE the other. I have NO tolerance for any argument that suggests that somehow women are "naturally" more submissive and "need" to be dominated. If you buy into that, you are woefully ignorant of all that research and history show, and you are choosing to ignore the EVIDENCE that women, dominated by men, were and are miserable. Women in equal partnerships where their man STANDS UP for himself are happy.
> 
> I think most people--men and women--continue to fear the responsibility of acting like an ADULT b/c it might mean, going it alone. When you've accepted that "alone" is not the worst thing in life and you start standing up for yourself and accepting responsibility for your choices, then you are an adult and you will find real happiness. Everything else is just an illusion and will fade.


Agree this isn't rocket science here........people just don't truly communicate effectively that's the crux of everything imo.

My wife and I say "We bend we don't break" and fwiw I'm much much more bendable


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## SimplyAmorous

*Re: The rules*

Maybe I am mixed up but I agree with what Mem says and I also LOVE & agree with what Sister359 is saying as well for added balance !! 

"Nice Guys" often go too far to please & it backfires mercilessly, many of us wives end up only taking them for granted. My husband has always been a Pleaser, But he never whines or complains, he rarely showed anger to me in those days, he never came across as "Needy". 

I like line # 10. " You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two".

My husband failed to express his needs better. That was his biggest issue as a Nice Guy. 

I seriously hope though, that not all Nice Guys will suddenly turn into the sheer opposite to get the love & attention from their wives. Maybe tweek & modify some things they have been doing wrong, but in the end, I still think Nice Guys ROCK !


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## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> CP,
> Exactly right. I dominate the situation - not the person. And even then ONLY when it is important to me. Most of the time it isn't and SHE is dominating the situation.



Perfect sense!!! 
My husband lets me have my way a lot of times when it is just not a big deal, like which restaurant to go to or which department store to go to.

But, if it is something he doesn't like to do, I'd better shut up, never try more than once, because it is no use. And if it is something he wants to do, I'd better let him do, I don't want to piss him off and put him in a grouchy mood. 

So for a man, you just need to know what makes you happy and what pisses you off. Don't give in to your woman if she is annoying you. Say no to her in a respectful but firm way, say yes to her when it doesn't bother you!!!


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## Trenton

Mem, I think you understand the dynamics of your relationship and are sharing your experience, open to suggestions, flexible and self assured. I'm sure your marriage benefits from this and you are helping others learn these same tools to apply to their marriage.

Big Bad Wolf doesn't come off as this type of character to me. He is more stringent and dominating specifically of his wife. In one post of his I remember reading that he thought all women enjoy being spanked. This sent yuck down my spine. Not because I care if his wife likes to be spanked every day of her life but because it's a very demeaning thing to assume all women like.

I like what Sister said. As it was saying that both need to speak up and care about the relationship they're in and get to know each other. It's not necessarily gender divided and it's a great injustice we do to ourselves to limit our visions of another based upon gender alone.


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## AFEH

Very big difference between dominating and being proactive. For me dominance has no part in my life. I do not want to dominate another human being. Never have and never will. Why? If I dominate I suppress. I will never suppress another person. I know I can dominate and I know domination is not me.

Initiate? Be proactive? I will always do that. I love that.

But oh boy I’ve had quite a few times in my life when I’d love the love of my life to initiate and lead so I can follow and support. It never happened.

Bob


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## AFEH

Here’s a little story. I play squash, I love playing squash it’s like physical aerial chess to me. I had a good buddy I enjoyed playing squash with. The time he could play with me was controlled by his wife. Twice even though my buddy and me had agreed the next time to play his wife changed the time.

Absolutely no way would I take a third change in time by his wife. I felt like his wife was controlling not only him but me as well by default. Neither my buddy or myself have played squash since. Women who control for the sake of control are seriously dysfunctional. They are missing a key ingredient of being a balanced human being.

Bob


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## Crypsys

I think the word dominating may not be the right word, but aggressive and self assurance. I am a very easy going guy and I can be completely happy doing a myriad of different things. There are things though I have made a line in the sand and I have 0 tolerance for any deviation from that line. I hold myself and my loved ones to the same observance of those lines. As long as those lines are not crossed I am gentle, loving and I don't get angry easily. If someone crosses those lines though I have no problem becoming stern and as hard as nails. And no, I have never laid a finger, nor demeaned any of my loved ones or friends when angry.

I tend to be a very direct person and when my wife and I were dating, I told her the 4 things that I had to have in our relationship, there would be no discussion nor movement on my part for those 4 conditions. I also asked her at that time if there was anything she required for herself to be happy. 

1. I will not tolerate disrespect to or against others. I will never belittle my wife or children verbally. I demand the same respect from them for me. 

2. If you want/need something you will ask, you will not hint or poke around the edges. A perfect example was when I asked my wife where she wanted to go out to eat, she said she didn't care. I drove us to a seafood restaurant (she hates seafood with a passion) I refused to go anywhere else. And yes, if I am ever asked I will say what places sound good to me, etc.

3. If I express a deep want to do something, I expect that you will do your best to accommodate my needs. If you tell me something is important to you(like going shopping, etc) I will in turn do the same for you even if it's something I don't enjoy. It is a two way street though, I will not give you yours if my wishes are rejected.

4. A marriage is about two becoming one, a deeper relationship then just a friendship, as it involves intimacy. As a man I need and desire to be intimate with my wife. If I want just a friend, I can get a friend at any time. As my spouse, I desire you to be my friend and to be intimate with. I will do whatever it is you need I can to make sure I fulfill your emotional and other needs as a woman. I ask the same from you that you realize my physical needs as a man.

I know reading it I may come across as an aa$$hole to some. I consider it though being completely truthful with what makes me happy in life. I feel that being open about it was being kinder to her because she knew exactly what I needed from her as a wife.


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## BigBadWolf

Domination in a social or political sense, I am in agreement with mostly what is being expressed, of course I am not advocating slavery or some form of it even on an emotional or psychological level, that is ridiculous.

Do not think for a minute I am surpressing or controling the personality or behavior of my wife nor would that be very likely for any man to do. ANyone who knows or would see my wife would assume in every sense she is sharp and intelligent and opinionated and not taking crap from anyone, very dominant herself and that is a fact.

But in the sexual sense, for the sexual structure to be at peak and prime, in my experience absolutely, there is one leader and one dominant partner, and sexually speaking that is the responsibility of the man, and in any relationship where sex is important then the man will strive to dominate, and the woman will strive to be dominated, even to the point where the woman, yes, will push her man to be this in some way or form. 

If this is offensive to anyone then that is up to them to reconcile whether there experiences match up to their offense. 

Be sure that at any time if my wife expressed she would rather be treated gender neutral and stop being turned on sexually day by day for so many years, of course I would respect such a decision but of course there would be consequences to the relationship for sure. This should not even need to be typed out but regardless here it is for anyone who really needs to see it.

In all my experiences with women, I have never seen any woman as turned on as she is when she is pursued in the dominant fashion, period. No amount of negotiation or talk or giving flowers or doing housework or any of these other 50/50 ideas have even come close. And I am saying not even in the same ballpark or even worth speaking of. 

So much to say consistently seeing a woman on the verge of an orgasm often without much more than being touched, or begging her man to take her or begging her man to rip off her clothes or begging her man to allow her to do this or that to him, can you say this happens from a man doing housework? I dare anyone to compare.

It is clear there are many opinions shared that, while everyone has the right to their opinion, not every opinion is even worthwhile to be considered or replied to.

Any opinion to attempt to shame a man to "grow up" for expressing his sexual appetites or experiences will always fall under this category. 

Non the less, this thread is borderline on some silly gender war, that is not beneficial to anyone and I would encourage everyone to share honestly and openly their own opinions backed with their experience, and to avoid needless accusations, as they will help no one.


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## Nine-E

Okay, I've been a nice guy all my life. I'm still nice, but it has certainly made me a doormat more often than I'd like. Especially in my marriage. We guys do need to man up in many ways, but on the other hand I also feel that any woman (or man) who's response to someone being nice to them is to take advantage of their niceness is just sick, plain and simple. 

For me, it's all about "what goes around comes around". That means if you're nice to me I will want to be nice to you. And if I'm being nice to you, I expect you will want to be nice back. I do not expect you to say to yourself "Great! Now I can get him to do even more chores and be even more submissive until he's nothing more than a child!". 

This business about "we women will take advantage" speaks volumes about the character of those women. Don't you see that taking advantage worsens the situation? Can't you turn around and be a nice, decent human being right back at him instead of asserting control? I don't see why you'd want to run his life just because he won't fight back. It should be give and take from both sides.

I'm reminded of a response I read somewhere when a woman was asked what she wants in a man, and she said "I want a man who will tell me 'no', but I also want a man I can control." You want a man who will stick up for himself up to a point, but beyond that you want ultimate authority. What's so bad about losing control once in a while?

Also, how many of you women who have nice guy husbands have actually sat down and told him, point blank, that he's too submissive? If you haven't, why haven't you? And if you have, what was his reaction?

My extremely assertive wife has never, ever told me that she would love me more, be more sexual, and be a generally happier person if only I'd disregard her feelings more often. Why would anyone want that?


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## greenpearl

I am getting confused. How come we are talking about domination now? Nobody wants to be dominated. People like to be respected. A Man can be the head of the family, but it doesn't mean he should dominate his woman. He should be sweet and respectful towards his wife. He can be firm with his decision. He can only get his wife's respect only if he respects her. A lot of marriages fail because the husband and wife don't respect each other. They take their partner's sacrifice for granted. Who likes to be taken for granted? I don't owe you!!! 

For spanking, as long as it is joking and funny, it is playful. It is fun to be playful in a marriage. But different people will interpret this in a different way. If she likes it, then spank her. If she doesn't like it, of course don't do it. Who likes to be bitten by a snarly dog??? You won't spank her since you know you will get backfired. I don't mind being spanked by my husband. I am being spanked everyday. I am a bad girl, I deserve it!!!    

For people in general, if you want people to be nice to you, you have to be nice to them first. That is common sense. Who will smile to you if you give him a dirty look??? If you smile to them, they will probably smile back to you. You say hello to them, they'll say hello back to you. Although some people don't like other people's attention, you say hello to him, he gives you a reluctant response, next time I meet him, I just ignore him. Who likes to be treated indifferently??????

For a man and a woman, respect get paid by respect, love get paid by love, kindness get paid by kindness, if you don't get paid the same way, you should think about something else!!!!


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## Caregiver/controller?

I'm the other side of the coin. I was the daughter of parents like yours (passive father and a dominant mother). I have had two 9yr relationships in my life where I have been the breadwinner , cook, accountant and cleaner and my partner is free of all burden to pursue their dreams. Unfortunately my present relationship is on the rocks.He says I'm too controlling and dont communicate. I'm sick and tired of doing everything and just want to be looked after but when I bring up the need for him to share the load he gets defensive and angry and says I am telling him what to do again.


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## Capital P

I've been reading through these posts, and all I can think of is "if only that were possible". Before I was married, this was absolutely my perspective:

Women are naturally wary of being vulnerable, which comes (very simplistically) from the fact that they don't really get a choice about sticking around if they get pregnant, whereas men have to actively make the choice to be responsible in caring for and raising children that a born into a relationship. A man's greatest fulfillment is therefore found in being responsible - for himself, for his wife and for his family. A woman will not want to be faced with the concept of a choice about sticking around, she wants security that comes from knowing without doubt that the father of her children will choose to stay. That translates to him making important decisions on behalf of the family also - this of course not being 'his' decision in an individual sense, but rather the family's decision made by him. In short, woman wants to know that her man will always choose what's best for the family.

So my responsibility as a single man was to develop my own convictions - strong, passionate, reasoned, and objective. This is what I tried to do as best as I could, and I honestly feel that to a certain measure I achieved this.

Now, after being married for a few years, I look at what I've just written and think blah, blah, blah, whaaaaatever.

If I have an opinion, it will be turned against me. It appears that to my wife, the fact that I have a point of view on the world is first and foremost a threat to her. She has an inbuilt need to crush any vestige of who I am and what I stand for before she will even contemplate opening her mouth to express her own desires. She will state what she thinks only when it can be used as a means to 'stand against me'.

To me, 'taking the lead' means leading the relationship in a manner where the 'power struggle' is neutralilsed. We are not in competition, but rather we stand together, commited to taking on the world together. To activate this principle, I will try to take the lead by proactively creating diologue, where both of our viewpoints are expressed, then a decision can be made. However, her determination to interpret everything I say or do as being a tactic in the power struggle has left me empty and passive, a hollow shell. 

Now that we have a young daughter, with a second child on the way, I have noticed that she has gained the realisation that she needs me around. It takes a massive effort from both of us to keep things going, so I'm gradually gaining my feet again.

The hardest thing for me has been the sheer helplessness I've felt as I've had no option but to do things in a way that I know to be destructive. The thing with a committed relationship is the time - things develop over periods of months and years that cannot be expressed in tidy paragraphs. I know that my wife is not totally unique among women in the way she operates, because I see the same issues expressed by so many other men. I wish there was some magic wand that we (being men who honestly want to do the best by our wives and families) could wave to 'make' women realise that we aren't out to get them, we're not with them just to prove how much better we are than them, we are not and never will be perfect, and above all WE LOVE THEM. Hear that wives: WE LOVE YOU. GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK SKULLS. Please stop trying to manipulate us, twist our words to suit whatever gives you the upper hand, etc...

I thought about deleting that last bit, because it was expressed only in frustration, but I'll leave it, because it does actually express a very real part of my own life, and I'm sure many other mens's lives.


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## MEM2020

Nine,
You are in a 15 year sexual drought. BBW and I live in the oasis of intimate saturation. Perhaps the biggest single difference between us is how we see women. I believe that for every man who loves to play/watch football, boxing, wrestling or any other high conflict sport, there is a woman who likes conflict just as much. She may like physical conflict, and/or she may like emotional conflict. But either way those things excite and fascinate her. 

My W LOVES competition and it's kissing cousin, conflict. Could be a board game, or tennis game or a healthy argument or wrestling match. Could be pure verbal banter. And what really gets her turned on is excellence. When she gets in the zone or I do - or even better when we both do. It actually isn't about who wins. It is about who got closest to their full potential. 

Why are you afraid to demand your W treat you and your needs the same way you treat hers? BTW I can just about guarantee you are NOT meeting her need for conflict. And sorry to say - it is not her job to tell you to "man up". You either do or you don't. If I live to be a 100 I will never ask someone permission before I demand that they treat me fairly. 

You will never hear me say: "would it be ok if I asked you not to take advantage of my generosity"

You might hear me ask: "would you be ok if I did that to you?" or "WHY would you think I would be ok with that?"

A lot of times I find people are keenly aware they are misbehaving. In those cases, some intense body language usually does more in seconds than a long drawn out and frankly tiresome conversation. 




Nine-E said:


> Okay, I've been a nice guy all my life. I'm still nice, but it has certainly made me a doormat more often than I'd like. Especially in my marriage. We guys do need to man up in many ways, but on the other hand I also feel that any woman (or man) who's response to someone being nice to them is to take advantage of their niceness is just sick, plain and simple.
> 
> For me, it's all about "what goes around comes around". That means if you're nice to me I will want to be nice to you. And if I'm being nice to you, I expect you will want to be nice back. I do not expect you to say to yourself "Great! Now I can get him to do even more chores and be even more submissive until he's nothing more than a child!".
> 
> This business about "we women will take advantage" speaks volumes about the character of those women. Don't you see that taking advantage worsens the situation? Can't you turn around and be a nice, decent human being right back at him instead of asserting control? I don't see why you'd want to run his life just because he won't fight back. It should be give and take from both sides.
> 
> I'm reminded of a response I read somewhere when a woman was asked what she wants in a man, and she said "I want a man who will tell me 'no', but I also want a man I can control." You want a man who will stick up for himself up to a point, but beyond that you want ultimate authority. What's so bad about losing control once in a while?
> 
> Also, how many of you women who have nice guy husbands have actually sat down and told him, point blank, that he's too submissive? If you haven't, why haven't you? And if you have, what was his reaction?
> 
> My extremely assertive wife has never, ever told me that she would love me more, be more sexual, and be a generally happier person if only I'd disregard her feelings more often. Why would anyone want that?


----------



## Caregiver/controller?

I do however reserve to right when my husband "pleads" for another classic car he wants to buy to point out the $2000 in unpaid utility bills. Financial control needs to be earned.


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## greenpearl

I can't speak for other women, I can only speak my point of view. I am a well respected teacher at school. I respect my husband for saying no to me and sticking to his rule. I find it challenging. I don't think I'll respect him much if he is a wimp and does everything I like. I think BBW posted something about a woman desires a man who is what what what and a woman won't desire a man who is what what what. A man can stick to his rules, but he also has to be loving and respectful towards his wife. I won't like a man who is dominant or bossy. How can you find the balance, depends on yourself. Different women take different level. For strong willed women, maybe they need strong willed men to match, but the sad part is, you find them to be with wimps!!!!!!


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## BigBadWolf

I would not be "bossy" at all to my wife in practically any sense of the word, except showing calm and confident dominance in one or two areas of our relationship, and those are the ones that count. THat is the key and what is important, these ones that count are absolutely expected by my wife for me to be in charge, that is for my own standing up for myself, and sexually between us. 

My wife is not going to say in words, it is a turn on to do this or that, but it is clear in her behavior over the years beyond dispute, she is not respecting any man that cannot be his own leader, and she has no sexual attraction for such a man, and she WILL challenge me often on these things.

What I have learned, to attempt to avoid or appease during these challenges, brings emotional distance and resentment between us.

WHen I meet these challenges head on, it leads to her skyrocketing respect for me, and massive sexual attraction between us. Understand this is not a game or someting just for pretend, it is the absolute core of what sexual attraction is, as a woman she is radically sexually excited to witness and experience male dominance.

SO I have learned not only to stand for myself and express absolutely my sexual appetites and to even look forward to opportunities of conflict or confrontation, I have learned even better to enjoy such conflicts or confrontations. FOr the good man, to understand this in relation to his woman, is critical!

ANd like MEM11363 is saying so well, it would be a massive sexual dissappointment for my wife to see her man needing to ask permission for so many tings, as instead of her married to a man she is not wanting to be married to a little boy. But understand for me to live and behave and relatate in my relationship like this I better be damn sure to be aware of what is going on for my decisions to be proper and beneficial for my family. 

If I am spending money I need to show good judging, even for someting just for myself or my own hobby.

If I am pursuing my sexual appetites, I better know what my wife is also needing and emotoinally connected as well.

These things are hardly worth having to mention, but lest there is no confusion, the amount of responsibility cannot be overllooked, so it is with the dominant man, he is responsibal for these areas that he takes ownership of, especially in sexual and emotional connecting with his woman. 

This is the difference between so so sexual relationship, and the incredible passionate and primal sexual relationship that is possible between the good man and woman.


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## BigBadWolf

Caregiver/controller? said:


> I do however reserve to right when my husband "pleads" for another classic car he wants to buy to point out the $2000 in unpaid utility bills. Financial control needs to be earned.


Exactly.

A man begging for a toy, when there is unpaid debts, this is looking from his woman's view as he is being a child.

Instead, for a man to take ownership of the financial situation, to either put off the toy for awhile or to take to action the means to come up with the extra money to both, cover the debts, buy the toy, and even have some extra for something nice for his woman or to put back for a rainy day, this is him acting in dominance.

The first scenario leads to insecurity and resentment.

The second scenario leads to security, respect, and sexual attraction.

Thank you for sharing this.


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## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> I would not be "bossy" at all to my wife in practically any sense of the word, except showing calm and confident dominance in one or two areas of our relationship, and those are the ones that count. THat is the key and what is important, these ones that count are absolutely expected by my wife for me to be in charge, that is for my own standing up for myself, and sexually between us.
> 
> My wife is not going to say in words, it is a turn on to do this or that, but it is clear in her behavior over the years beyond dispute, she is not respecting any man that cannot be his own leader, and she has no sexual attraction for such a man, and she WILL challenge me often on these things.
> 
> What I have learned, to attempt to avoid or appease during these challenges, brings emotional distance and resentment between us.
> 
> WHen I meet these challenges head on, it leads to her skyrocketing respect for me, and massive sexual attraction between us. Understand this is not a game or someting just for pretend, it is the absolute core of what sexual attraction is, as a woman she is radically sexually excited to witness and experience male dominance.
> 
> SO I have learned not only to stand for myself and express absolutely my sexual appetites and to even look forward to opportunities of conflict or confrontation, I have learned even better to enjoy such conflicts or confrontations. FOr the good man, to understand this in relation to his woman, is critical!
> 
> ANd like MEM11363 is saying so well, it would be a massive sexual dissappointment for my wife to see her man needing to ask permission for so many tings, as instead of her married to a man she is not wanting to be married to a little boy. But understand for me to live and behave and relatate in my relationship like this I better be damn sure to be aware of what is going on for my decisions to be proper and beneficial for my family.
> 
> If I am spending money I need to show good judging, even for someting just for myself or my own hobby.
> 
> If I am pursuing my sexual appetites, I better know what my wife is also needing and emotoinally connected as well.
> 
> These things are hardly worth having to mention, but lest there is no confusion, the amount of responsibility cannot be overllooked, so it is with the dominant man, he is responsibal for these areas that he takes ownership of, especially in sexual and emotional connecting with his woman.
> 
> This is the difference between so so sexual relationship, and the incredible passionate and primal sexual relationship that is possible between the good man and woman.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I find it very challenging when my husband disagrees with me. We often debate, and we can go on for a long time. I don't like a man who says yes yes yes all the time. A woman can never be right all the time, same thing with a man. I think a man will also love his woman more if she is not too meek. A lot of Chinese women are too meek, a lot of western women are too opinionated. My husband didn't want to marry a western woman because he thinks they are too strong willed. I would like to know if it is true.


----------



## AFEH

What happened to Romance?

I’m of the opinion that a lot of women don’t know what a man’s love for them is. I think they see “love” in their terms, not in the man’s terms. They just can’t comprehend a man’s love, it’s way beyond their comprehension.

I think for a lot of wives marriage is a duty. I think for a lot of husbands, marriage is a romance.

I think a wife gets an inkling of what their husband’s love for them was after the husband’s “fallen out of love” with her and he’s left.

Men are as capable of falling quickly out of love as they are as capable of falling quickly into love. It’s the nature of the beast in the man.

I don’t think a man can actually live with his wife once he’s realised he is no longer in love with her and therefore there is no romance in the marriage. I think men are far more romantic than woman. If the “romance” he felt for his wife has left him he will leave and once he does it has truly ended.

Man needs to feel romantic towards his wife. If he doesn’t he will end his marriage and in time look for romance elsewhere. It’s the “romance” or “romantic ideal” that keeps the man going through all the trials and tribulations in a marriage. Once a man has lost his romance, he will no longer be able to tolerate the trials and tribulations.

Bob


----------



## Scannerguard

A friend at this forum asked me to contribute to this thread because she likes my contributions (and I appreciate the compliment).

What can I say? There is a lot of wisdom in this thread so much floating that I think psychologists should be reading it for their marriage counseling.

Let's see. . .what can I add?

Well, let me throw this out there for "controversial debate":

I was looking for a new place as I settle down in my divorce and I met this neat old guy who owned some properties in Ocean City, NJ. We got to talking and I told him that even in my divorce my wife is trying to control my actions, which was why I was hesitant to sign a lease.

Her latest ploy is: "If you don't do this, I'm going to move away with the kids! If you don't do that, I'm going to move away with the kids!" The funny thing is, since finding "my balls", I don't really care. I think it's "precious" another man wants to raise my offspring. If he wants, I'll plant some more of my seed in her and he can raise the next one too. It's very cavalier of me and very out of character of me, being the "good father" in the past. . .but what can I say? I found my balls. And they're working - they are producing testosterone. And sometimes that does mean I err on the side of being a jerk, just like having ovaries, producing estrogen, you will err on the side of being a b**ch sometimes.

Anyway, he asked, "Is she educated? Educated women are usually controlling."

I replied, "Yeah, as a matter of fact, she is."

I think to the fact now I am involved in a relationship (on again, off again) with a woman who says, "You are the nicest person I have ever met." the other day and she is trying to control me in certain subconcious ways (through sex, etc; she is already telling me I need to remodel the kitchen in my new place and manipulating the situation that my days off are with her vs. my kids)

So. . .I am going to float a controversial theory here. . .not that education per se has been a bad boon to women. . .it's been a good development for them. . .but female education has been a bad boon for marriages It may be that education gives women a lot of leverage in any social situation (and marriage is a social situation). So any woman that has a propensity for being controlling (and let's face it - that's a lot of women, maybe 60-70%?) and women who crave that conflict that BBW speaks of (maybe 60-70%). . .well crap, you often have a mismatch, especially when now. . .she is with a Nice guy.

*Writing on chalkboard to class some formulas* 

NICE GUY + EDUCATED WOMEN = MARITIAL DISASTER

ASSERTIVE, UNEDUCATED GUY + EDUCATED WOMEN = MARITAL POSSIBILITY

UNEDUCATED WOMAN + EDUCATED, NICE GUY (has leverage) = GOOD MARRIAGE

EDUCATED, ASSERTIVE MAN + EDUCATED WOMAN = MARITAL POSSIBILITY

Men, if you are going to marry an educated woman, you have a greater responsibility to being assertive, confident, and dominant in the social situation as women generally won't want to end up being the leader and will secretly crave the construction worker, tool belt and all, no shirt, hooting and whistling at them on the way to work in the city in their work attire. Or the dominant executive in a white shirt and suit. She'll look at them and say, "Wow. . .I wish my husband was like that" ( a form of lust )

At the very least, I must admit, not being one for constant conflict, I just played for stalemate with my stb-x, instead of trying to win and establish dominance. I would only just try to subtlely show her the flaws in her past arguments with my stb-x.

I do know this - what BBW and MEM speak of is entirely correct in this thread so I am not sure if the poster who invited me in for "balance" will appreciate this. Instead of "balance", I tend to just offer controversy..

So, to not disappoint the poster/friend who invited me here. . .let me tie together a lot of the thoughts here with my contoversial theory:

I am not suggesting we go back to a society like the Taliban or other fundamental Muslim/fundamental Christian communities. That would certainly not be fun. I enjoy being around women like Greenpearl, Simplyamorous, atruckersgirl, and even the women like Susan2010 who I have had conflict with in the past. I know they are all educated and are able to hold their own in any discussion. I am not threatened by any of you "Modern Women" to stay with the theme of this thread.

But perhaps our young women should enter into college with the Disclaimer:

*Caution. A college education and enlightenment may be harzardous to any future relationship. Please attend Professor Scannerguard's class upon exit.*

Yeah, there are exceptions when you see the 2 classic professors, woman and men existing in a gender neutral relationship (the fictional Frazier and Lilleth ended up divorced tho, didn't they? And Frazier also dated many educated women in his future show all ending up failing. . .subtle writer message?), each pursueing their careers and treating each other as equals.

But let's face it - what seems to sociologically work better (not perfect) is a traditional marraige where the man is the leader, offers wisdom and decisiveness, and the woman offers council.

Perhaps the Muslims are onto something when it comes to families and marriages and thank God we live a society where we encourage them to build mosques and are welcome here to offer what good they have and remind of us what worked in the past and melt into our great "melting pot", huh?


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> What happened to Romance?
> 
> I’m of the opinion that a lot of women don’t know what a man’s love for them is. I think they see “love” in their terms, not in the man’s terms. They just can’t comprehend a man’s love, it’s way beyond their comprehension.
> 
> I think for a lot of wives marriage is a duty. I think for a lot of husbands, marriage is a romance.
> 
> I think a wife gets an inkling of what their husband’s love for them was after the husband’s “fallen out of love” with her and he’s left.
> 
> Men are as capable of falling quickly out of love as they are as capable of falling quickly into love. It’s the nature of the beast in the man.
> 
> I don’t think a man can actually live with his wife once he’s realised he is no longer in love with her and therefore there is no romance in the marriage. I think men are far more romantic than woman. If the “romance” he felt for his wife has left him he will leave and once he does it has truly ended.
> 
> Man needs to feel romantic towards his wife. If he doesn’t he will end his marriage and in time look for romance elsewhere. It’s the “romance” or “romantic ideal” that keeps the man going through all the trials and tribulations in a marriage. Once a man has lost his romance, he will no longer be able to tolerate the trials and tribulations.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

You put me to think!!!!!
I always want to find out why men lose interest in their wives after they are married for a couple of years. Men are not attracted to their women because the wives are: complaining and nagging? demanding and whiny? sloppy and heavy? 
What you said really makes me think!!! Men want romance to be there all the time!!! I always ask myself why my husband and I are still so in love with each other. I feel that we always have that ROMANCE going! I feel we are still dating! We just feel sweet spending time together. We feel sweet when we make love. He calls me" MY WIFE!!!!!" very passionately. 

ROMANCE, KEEP THAT FEELING GOING!!!

YOU MAKE ME THINK!!!


----------



## greenpearl

Scannerguard

Finished your post sentence by sentence.   
You are talking about something very interesting here. Women with high education tend to cause problems. You know what, after I finished your post, I agree with you!!! 

I think they become more arrogant, more opinionated! They don't have the respect they should have for their husbands. So you always see successful career women with unsuccessful marriages. 
Women with low education know that they are limited, so they are more humble, and that's what men want from a relationship( Hope I am not wrong). I still think men have the instinct to protect their women, not being bossed by their women. 

And I think what people need is wisdom, not high education. knowledge is not wisdom. A woman with high education can be an idiot in many ways!!! 

I am OK educated!


----------



## Boogsie

I think there has been some confusion here over my use of dominance and the dominant male. What a lot of you are describing are the a-hole trains I mentioned in this paragraph:



Boogsie said:


> From reading posts from people like MEM and BBW, I couldn't quite grasp what they were saying. I mean, I did, but it didn't make any sense. So, I started reading more. Articles on male dominance, etc. Things started to make sense, but dominance as it was being explained sounded like I would just be another a-hole. There was a balance that was missing.


I'll give you an example of what "I" see as me being the dominant male. My wife and I, for the last 5 or so years have only be exchanging "grandmother" or "aunt" kisses with each other. You know, the quick peck on the lips. This is something that, in the past, I had requested (a.k.a. asked) that we stop. She said ok. But it didn't. So, I told her, "You aren't my grandmother and I'm not your grandfather. There will be no more relative kisses. If you want to kiss me, kiss me properly, like I'm your husband.".

Her response was, "I don't have to shove my tongue down your throat every time I kiss you."

I said, "Yes, you do."

After that we've not had any problems with the kisses. Sure, she will push back every now and again to test my mettle, but I WILL NOT back down on things I have to demand. If she has an aversion to kissing me passionately then we have no reason being married. 

As I said above, there is a balance. There are situations where it is required. I don't ever expect to be obeyed. She clearly has the option to tell me that my demand for her to properly kiss me is over the line. She didn't.


----------



## themrs

Scannerguard - I have to say I agree with you on some level. I'm an educated woman. My husband is not formally educated. I'm a corporate professional and he's a blue collar guy. The type of stuff I read men saying in this forum baffles me. My husband would never put up with it and the truth is, that's why I married him. 

I dated a lot of guys in college who were very nice, but wimpy as all get out. I remember going out with a guy who was in college with me. Very educated and nice. We went to the movies and some kids were being loud and obnoxious behind us. My date didn't do anything. Needless to say I didn't go out with him again.

Now my husband, when we were dating would defend me at the drop of a hat. To this day, if he even suspects someone is disrespecting me he will have words with them. We've never had a lot of money, but he makes me feel safe. He makes me feel like when I'm with him, no harm will come to me.

I agree with you that education (as well as women's lib) have taken a tremendous toll on how women view marriage and relationships in general, but that doesn't excuse men backing down like a bunch of spineless punks. Are they afraid of women? If so, why? Because of the world we live in, women have had to become more assertive. We have to get jobs and we can't act like submissive docile little creatures in a corporate atmosphere. The trick is to switch from our dominante persona in the workplace to our agreeable "yes dear" attitudes at home. It's not easy and women of past generations didn't have to wear so many hats. 

The point is as much as education and working women have ruined the traditional gender roles in marriage and parenthood, the same can be said of men. Just because women have changed (in large part out of necessity), that doesn't mean men had to follow suit. That goes to show how influential women are to men.


----------



## themrs

greenpearl said:


> Scannerguard
> 
> Finished your post sentence by sentence.
> You are talking about something very interesting here. Women with high education tend to cause problems. You know what, after I finished your post, I agree with you!!!
> 
> I think they become more arrogant, more opinionated! They don't have the respect they should have for their husbands. So you always see successful career women with unsuccessful marriages.
> Women with low education know that they are limited, so they are more humble, and that's what men want from a relationship( Hope I am not wrong). I still think men have the instinct to protect their women, not being bossed by their women.
> 
> And I think what people need is wisdom, not high education. knowledge is not wisdom. A woman with high education can be an idiot in many ways!!!
> 
> I am OK educated!


Even if educated women do become more opinionated, does that mean men should just sit there and take it? I don't understand why women are the problem in this scenerio. Women today have to be educated. We have to work. We can't depend on men to take care of us like we did 50 years ago. That being said, if women have raised their level of independence, why can't men meet them there? Why can't men rise to that level and STILL be dominant? As far as I can tell, women have adapted to the modern world and men haven't come up to that level. There is no reason why a man can't still put an educated woman in her place. Even if women are educated, they are still women. A man should be a man regardless.


----------



## Scannerguard

Greenpearl,

Thanks for the compliment. Now. . .can you be the innocent student and I be the older, wiser professor? 

Themrs,

Thank you for your additional thoughts. Your post was the perfect addition to my post, offering the "Yang" perspective. Yes, I imagine the "yes, dear" attitude doesn't work in corporate America too well, except, here's the kicker:

Women are starting to outperform men in corporate America, so much so, we may reach a point where we are surpassing the # of women working over the # of men working. Especially with the real estate collapse and construction workers out of so much work.

Corporations know very well a woman will do the same job, often better, and for less money.

So, speaking a business person myself, why would I hire a man, when a woman can do the same job, for better? 

Why do I care if contribute to a declining marriage and society? I'm about profit.

Men can't figure it out what we are supposed to do in this society.

Perhaps one day with genetic engineering and this newly engineered society, we will only need eggs, no sperm and the male will become a lost genetic byproduct. A hairy, unevolved primate of years past who scratched himself, drank beer, and cursed at the Philadelphia Eagles


----------



## Boogsie

themrs said:


> I dated a lot of guys in college who were very nice, but wimpy as all get out. I remember going out with a guy who was in college with me. Very educated and nice. We went to the movies and some kids were being loud and obnoxious behind us. My date didn't do anything. Needless to say I didn't go out with him again.


And this is the bite in the @$$. As you said, gender roles are gone in the modern world. We are equals in everything. The way we are raised these days says that we are all equals and you don't NEED protection. If you don't like those rowdy kids, you will stand up and tell them yourselves! Or at least that is how we are taught. You can do anything we can do and you don't NEED us to protect you, and we don't need you to protect us.

Where this really effs things up is though this is the common held belief today it totally goes against baser level instincts over which we have no control.


----------



## Scannerguard

Themrs:

Our posts crossed.

I kinda knew when I posted this controversial theory that some women would start to get threatened by my theory that education is the problem.

Again, to repeat - it's a boon for women but it has not been a boon for marriages. (that's the theory)

I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.

I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."

Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.

Or I extend the extra effort on an educated woman.

But is it really worth it? What do I get out of it by extending the extra effort? Perhaps a better lifestyle. . .not sure what else. 

Something I am meditating on.


----------



## Crypsys

Scannerguard said:


> So. . .I am going to float a controversial theory here. . .not that education per se has been a bad boon to women. . .it's been a good development for them. . .but female education has been a bad boon for marriages It may be that education gives women a lot of leverage in any social situation (and marriage is a social situation). So any woman that has a propensity for being controlling (and let's face it - that's a lot of women, maybe 60-70%?) and women who crave that conflict that BBW speaks of (maybe 60-70%). . .well crap, you often have a mismatch, especially when now. . .she is with a Nice guy.


My wife is a year or so away from finishing up her PHd, so I feel she counts as a highly educated female. Being a smarter female she's not as willing to put up with BS answers or the "Because I said so" stuff, I agree. She will let her opinion be known on a topic whenever it is up for debate. But, she will recognize reason, she will listen to my arguments and she will change her view when my arguments have merit. I LOVE the fact that she offers me a challenge. I have to have my arguments backed up and be able to defend them, and that's great! 

My wife runs ALL over my brother-in-law and some of my other friends who are your typical "nice-guy". They don't understand how I can be as happy as I am with her. They think of her as difficult, hard headed and a bit ****y. Yet for me, I see her in a totally different light because I'm not afraid to step up and say my piece. I think that's why our marriage works, is I am confident, I am aggressive and my wife reacts positively to that part of my nature. I like to say my wife is like a shark, if she doesn't smell blood she's perfectly safe. If she smells blood though, she will go in for the kill and tear you up.  Yet to me, shes gentle, loving, caring and sweet. It's funny seeing my boys as they are getting older watch my wife and my relationship vs her relationship with her brother. I'm hoping through seeing me though they learn how to be that assertive, aggressive and caring man. As for the little girl I have coming? Oh man, that's gonna be a ride!!! :smthumbup:

So scanner, I agree with your hypothesis as far as my "research" goes into the topic.  But I will say I would rather have the educated, tough and challenging female rather then someone who is completely meek. I think with my personality I would tend to be overbearing to that kind of person.


----------



## themrs

Boogsie said:


> And this is the bite in the @$$. As you said, gender roles are gone in the modern world. We are equals in everything. The way we are raised these days says that we are all equals and you don't NEED protection. If you don't like those rowdy kids, you will stand up and tell them yourselves! Or at least that is how we are taught. You can do anything we can do and you don't NEED us to protect you, and we don't need you to protect us.
> 
> Where this really effs things up is though this is the common held belief today it totally goes against baser level instincts over which we have no control.


*sigh* I understand. The saying goes nice guys finish last. Every man I've ever had a conversation with has said that the "bad boys" are the ones the women always want. It's true. I've dated my share of "bad boys" in my time. It was because they made me feel safe and protected and they were respected and feared among their peers. Even if they felt as if I didn't "need" protecting, they offered it anyway and I gladly accepted.

So while I agree with you that men are trained to think of women as equals, it doesn't stop nature. I naturally want to be protected by a man and he naturally wants to protect me. What's wrong with that? I think we should take what we like in today's modern world and leave the rest. That's what my husband and I do. Whatever works. There are many times when he is the primary caretaker of the children and I am the primary breadwinner, but I still TREAT him as if he was bringing home the bacon and he still treats me as if I know more about taking care of children than he does. Like the other poster said, it's all about respect. 

I will admit, it's not easy. It would be much eaiser if we could follow traditional gender roles where I stayed home and did the mommy thing 24/7 and his only responsibility was to bring home a paycheck. But as you said, it's a lot easier for me as a woman to advance in the modern corporations (especially with my education level) than it is for a blue collar guy to find a job that allows him to support his family. I understand that, but it doesn't give me the right to treat my husband like less of a man because of the current economic climate and I won't. At any rate, he wouldn't put up with it if I did anyway.


----------



## greenpearl

themrs said:


> Even if educated women do become more opinionated, does that mean men should just sit there and take it? I don't understand why women are the problem in this scenerio. Women today have to be educated. We have to work. We can't depend on men to take care of us like we did 50 years ago. That being said, if women have raised their level of independence, why can't men meet them there? Why can't men rise to that level and STILL be dominant? As far as I can tell, women have adapted to the modern world and men haven't come up to that level. There is no reason why a man can't still put an educated woman in her place. Even if women are educated, they are still women. A man should be a man regardless.


I am not trying to annoy you. But I do think marriages before the 60's performed better. Traditional families, father went out to work, mother stayed at home, families had good home cooked meals to eat, men looked after their families well. Now women have more education and more rights. What do they get? Happier marriages? No, the answer is obvious! OK, they are able to support themselves now, are they happier? I doubt it! 

I agree that men should adapt to the change. Actually I mentioned this in one of posts here. Men should toughen up. But aren't there a lot of women who don't want that. They don't want men to hold doors for them. They don't want men to hold chairs for them! 

I am glad that your relationship with your husband works very well. Happy for you!

No matter how smart women can become, they still need men to hold them when they cry!!! In the Bible, it foretold that women will crave for men. It is just our nature. We want men. If we want men, why can't we be submissive to men???


----------



## Scannerguard

Crysys:

Well remember, this is all just "theory and conjecture".

What will be interesting is to report back here on my experience with dating an uneducated woman, as I would like to date at least one as I shop.

I have recently been hitting on a medical assistant (relatively less educated - they do have a certification so I don't mean to demean that very necessary field). Anyway, she is below me in education - no formal college, or an advanced degree like me, just trade school.

I have to say I have never dated a less educated woman. 

I call her up and she says, "How the phuck are you doing there, Scannerguard!!! Good to hear from you!!!!" I actually smiled on the other end at her well, "unlady-like" greeting. SHe is definitley a well, "country girl" but at times, I see some life wisdom come through and she has surprised me.

I think the risk for me is ending up in a Professor Higgins/Eliza (was that the character's name) relationship where I try to culture her. I guess that's a form of being overbearing.

So. . .that is a benefit of an educated woman besides a better lifestyle. You can take her anywhere.

But then again, I don't go cultured places anyway as a cultured, educated guy. 

Deep down, I'm a hairy, football-watching, scrotum scratching male who surfs and just wants a beach trailer near the Jersey shore.

The bedroom will be the test


----------



## themrs

Scannerguard said:


> Themrs:
> 
> Our posts crossed.
> 
> I kinda knew when I posted this controversial theory that some women would start to get threatened by my theory that education is the problem.
> 
> Again, to repeat - it's a boon for women but it has not been a boon for marriages. (that's the theory)
> 
> I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.
> 
> I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."
> 
> Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.
> 
> Or I extend the extra effort on an educated woman.
> 
> But is it really worth it? What do I get out of it by extending the extra effort? Perhaps a better lifestyle. . .not sure what else.
> 
> Something I am meditating on.


I wouldn't judge you if you did go out and get a check out girl as your next wife. I'm not threatened by the theory that educated women make for poorer wives. I think there is an element of truth to it.

Still, what are women supposed to do? Women already feel like in order to attract a man they have to "dumb down" and make him feel like he's smarter than her. We already feel like even if we have a better solution to the problem, we'd better let our man figure it out for fear of crushing his oh so fragile ego. Educated women already feel as if men are threatened by their knowledge and opinions so many of them have opted to not marry at all. At my very office I know of two unmarried women who decided to go to sperm banks and bypass the man all together. It would never be my choice, but I understand why they do it.


----------



## greenpearl

Scannerguard said:


> Crysys:
> 
> Well remember, this is all just "theory and conjecture".
> 
> What will be interesting is to report back here on my experience with dating an uneducated woman, as I would like to date at least one as I shop.
> 
> I have recently been hitting on a medical assistant (relatively unedcated - they do have a certification so I don't mean to demean that very necessary field). Anyway, she is below me in education - no formal college, or an advanced degree like me, just trade school.
> 
> I have to say I have never dated an uneducated woman.
> 
> I call her up and she says, "How the phuck are you doing there, Scannerguard!!! Good to hear from you!!!!" I actually smiled on the other end at her well, "unlady-like" greeting. SHe is definitley a well, "country girl" but at times, I see some life wisdom come through and she has surprised me.
> 
> I think the risk for me is ending up in a Professor Higgins/Eliza (was that the character's name) relationship where I try to culture her. I guess that's a form of being overbearing.
> 
> So. . .that is a benefit of an educated woman besides a better lifestyle. You can take her anywhere.
> 
> But then again, I don't go cultured places anyway as a cultured, educated guy.
> 
> Deep down, I'm a hairy, football-watching, scrotum scratching male who surfs and just wants a beach trailer near the Jersey shore.
> 
> The bedroom will be the test


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## greenpearl

I am going to play with my husband's toy and have some fun. 
Your guys can continue and have fun debating. 

BIG SMILES TO ALL OF YOU!!!!!


----------



## themrs

greenpearl said:


> I am not trying to annoy you. But I do think marriages before the 60's performed better. Traditional families, father went out to work, mother stayed at home, families had good home cooked meals to eat, men looked after their families well. Now women have more education and more rights. What do they get? Happier marriages? No, the answer is obvious! OK, they are able to support themselves now, are they happier? I doubt it!
> 
> I agree that men should adapt to the change. Actually I mentioned this in one of posts here. Men should toughen up. But aren't there a lot of women who don't want that. They don't want men to hold doors for them. They don't want men to hold chairs for them!
> 
> I am glad that your relationship with your husband works very well. Happy for you!
> 
> No matter how smart women can become, they still need men to hold them when they cry!!! In the Bible, it foretold that women will crave for men. It is just our nature. We want men. If we want men, why can't we be submissive to men???


I agree that marriages 40-50 years ago lasted longer, but I don't know how well they performed. I mean, it used to be acceptable for a man to cheat on and beat his wife and everyone would look the other way. Women had less rights and I don't know if marriages were necessarily happier then, it was just a societal norm for a woman to act one way and a man another.

Soceity changes. Women had to change. There is no getting around it. Have marriages suffered because of it? Yes. I absolutely agree with that. I think society as a whole has suffered because of women's liberation. But what was the alternative? 

I think the modern woman has a hard time being submissive to men because it has become a choice. Prior to today, it wasn't an option. A woman had to be submissive because she couldn't make it without a man. She needed him in order to survive. Now, women not only don't need a man to survive but we can flourish without one! Now women have to choose to be submissive even when it's not necessary to their survival and it's not an easy choice to make.


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## Scannerguard

I want to add something on this "less educated" woman.

Early on in my divorce, I was under terrible emotional distress, grappling with teh fact my wife was bringing another man in the house with my kids, almost immediately.

She offered me something this forum nor any educated person offered.

And it was so simple:

"You want a man in there who will be good to your kids. That's all."

So simple, yet so elegant.

So, while I may have more formal education, I think a partner who may work for me may be one who has less formal education (college) but one who has had a lot of life experience education. 

I think that complements me.

All this serious "life stuff" - divorce, child support, dating over 40. . .I lived in an insulated world. I think a woman who lived in that world (had it hard growing up) complements me.

Sorry to talk about myself. . .just got me thinking.


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## Scannerguard

Themrs:

I know I have the right to date who I want. I am challenging my own pre-conceived notion that I should be with a woman who is nearly my equal in formal education, that if I am with a woman who is less educated, I will have nothing to talk about. I would have never considered a "check-out girl" before;

Now PhD's over 40 and manless, guess what? You got competition if you are in the market for a partner. You are competing with the check out girl and I don't care if you did your thesis on the Political ramifications of Post-Cold War Reaganomics on the mating habits of Tse-tse flies.

I am not sure if I am asking the woman to "dumb down". . .perhaps just exercise their education differently in the confines of marriage.

I think it's the woman's job to be "council" in the marriage and that's what BBW and MEM et al are saying.

They can certainly be a "brainy council" (a hot secretary with hair in a bun and glasses librarian look in fact  ). . .but that's just it. They are just council. 

They are the President's Cabinet and the end of the day, your husband is President Obama or President Bush, depending on your political views and they should make it known by saying, "Whatever you say, Mr. President." And any President worth his muster should listen to his council and probably do what they advise 95% of the time.

So. . .the wife is right 95% of the time. . .but the wife let's his husband know in unequivicoal terms, it's HIS CALL, not hers.

Okay, I blew enough of my day here. . .I'll check back tonight on this interesting discussion.


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## Deejo

Scannerguard said:


> Again, to repeat - it's a boon for women but it has not been a boon for marriages. (that's the theory)


You aren't alone in the theory. It has been expressed by a number of authors, females among them. Specifically, referring to Elizabeth Gilbert from "Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace With Marriage"

To be clear ... very good for women, and the lives and opportunities available to women; not necessarily good for marriage. If women do the math on marriage there isn't a lot of upside if wifing and mothering supercede career and personal growth. Marriage is by it's very nature 'constraining'. If the parties cannot see and acknowledge that little nugget, it's going to be a rough ride.

themrs further illustrated the point with her anecdote. An educated and independent woman doesn't _need_ a man for any of the conventional roles that a husband would fill for most of history up until the mid-twentieth century. They don't need a husband to support, provide for, or enable them to have children. I don't fear that woman at all. I applaud her. Might want to sleep with her. But I'm not interested in marrying her either


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## michzz

In the late 70s a professor of mine at college wrote a book called "Equal Marriage" with her husband.

It was thin, way too philosophical, and doomed to not sell. Those two knew nothing of marriage.

It was no shock when a few years later they divorced.

I wanted her to write a follow-on book, "Equal Divorce", but I didn't have the guts to ask her to do it.


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## BigBadWolf

Scannerguard,

Thank you for your thoughts. I will try to reply in more detail as I have time, but as usual you have a interesting and bold way to express your ideas.

The taliban and other institutional repression to women, I simply oppose it and would avoid any comparison to institional oppression with dominance in regard to sexual attraction.

Institutional oppression merely props up many weak men over other women. If a man does not earned the respect he is looking for then he has not met his responsibility. This is not sexual attraction in the dominant sense that I am speaking of.

This is truth also in western countries with christian religion and parts of its own institutionalized oppression.

For sexual attraction in it's purest sense, it is only between one man and one woman should these things be played out, the man strives to dominate and the woman strives to be dominated, as the man must fight and earn the attraction of his woman, and his woman must be free to test her man, and if he is successful standing up for himself and all these things speaking of being dominant, then there is much sexual attraction between them both, and if he is not overcoming and instead avoiding or retreating then there is emotional distance and rejection to such a man, leading to resentment in the relationship. 

This is fundamental of the definition of freedom and should not be forced from outside, such as institutiional oppression of women.

This attitude I have is the same as well to say to avoid an educated woman, in so I would not go this far, and of course for myself I would not worry about this at all. 

But many good men have some assumption, even without his woman saying anything at all, that all women are of the mindset of some caricature of some angry feminist man hater. This is not truth and is an unfair stereotype as could be made. 

Good men, understand this, do not assume any one woman or group of woman speak for all women, let alone your woman. 

Instead, let your woman speak for herself, or be silent for herself, or let her own actions and behavior speak for herself what is important or not important to her. 

The good man may find even in the most liberated and educated woman, inside her is the radically sexual and feminine lady that adores being sexually desired and protected by her man. 

All good men, for your woman let her actions and behaviors speak for herself, and when as the good man it is your responsibility to pay attention and LISTEN!!!


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## Scannerguard

BBW:

I hope I didn't ever come across as forwarding the Taliban's political surpression of women. . .I was making an observation that their "overreaction" is perhaps an inevitable "overreaction" to the Westernization of marriage, a rejection of what is really not working either.

Here's the funny thing at this forum. We can all (you, me, et al) wax "wise" on this subject but religious, moderate clergy (Muslim, Jewish, Christian) have studied the subject of marraige for a long time and probably have reached the same conclusions we all have.

For all the discussion of sex and marriage and men and women and infidelty, it's rather ironic the "religion" forum isn't very frequented, isn't it?

Let me make it clear - perhaps it's timely that we are at a time in our country where we are assimilating "Moderate Muslims" and perhaps they have something to teach our society (and we them) about family structure, education, women, men, division of labor, etc.

I don't think our Ameican society, while it may be "just and equitable" right now with regards to men and women, is "sustainable." What we have isn't sustainable. . .even if women are able to provide for themselves, go to sperm banks. . .it begs the question:

What happens if they give birth to a boy?

Does she teach them that they are an abberrant genetic gender, to be antiquated in the near future?

I like that trio of words - "Just, equitable and sustainable." I use that trio a lot (picked it up on National Public Radio). Notice the choice of words - "equitable", not "equal".

The relationship of a man and woman should be "equitable", not equal. The relationship should be just and sustainable also.

I always say a sustainable partnership in business is at least 51/49, that way stalemates are avoided. 51% to the male, with the female offering 49% council.

Okay. . .I gotta really get off this forum for a few hours. . .would rather be here but should be elsewhere, LOL.


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## Deejo

I just appreciate the clarity of BBW's and MEM's message.
They never stray far and wide from their core:

Odds are if you aren't getting laid regularly by your wife, there is a fundamental issue with attraction in your relationship.As a MAN, there are basic steps you can and should take to address that issue. A substantial reason you aren't enjoying intimacy is on you. It isn't 'all her fault'.


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## Deejo

Scannerguard said:


> What happens if they give birth to a boy?


Bingo.


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## themrs

Scannerguard said:


> Themrs:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's the woman's job to be "council" in the marriage and that's what BBW and MEM et al are saying.
> 
> They can certainly be a "brainy council" (a hot secretary with hair in a bun and glasses librarian look in fact  ). . .but that's just it. They are just council.
> 
> They are the President's Cabinet and the end of the day, your husband is President Obama or President Bush, depending on your political views and they should make it known by saying, "Whatever you say, Mr. President." And any President worth his muster should listen to his council and probably do what they advise 95% of the time.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hey, I'm not arguing with you at all. It may surprise you to know that I'm 29 years old and I've seen enough to know that this is what a man wants. Plain and simple. Unlike most women my age, I do not have a problem with it at all. I've never seen a company successfully run with two CEOs.
> 
> I consider myself a modern day submissive wife. I choose to be submissive to my husband because at the end of the day it's better for my marriage and it frees me of the burden of having to do most of the thinking. I have no desire to be in control, even though I know I'm more than capable.
> 
> One example I can think of that recently happened was our car broke down. My husband asked his "mechanic" friend to take a look at it and the cost he came back with was too much for us to pay at the time. Weeks passed and I found out that the "mechanic" my husband trusted wasn't really all that trustworthy, so I suggested he get a second opinion. My husband didn't think I was right, so I let it go. Months passed. We were working with one car to get us back and forth to work and the kids to school. It was hard, but my husband didn't think we had the money to get the car fixed. Finally, our other car went on us. We had to do something and since the 1st broken car was closer to a shop, we took that one in. Guess what? The car needed WAY less work than the "mechanic" had estimated. I was right and we could have afforded it all along. My husband was embarassed, but I told him that it was an honest mistake that could have happened to anyone.
> 
> I could have nagged him the entire 4 months I was out of a car, but I chose not too. I could have reminded him day after day that we needed the car fixed, but I knew he already knew that. I could have just had the car towed to the shop and payed for it myself, but I didn't. The key is I trusted him to figure it out on his own and I swallowed my own pride and convenience while he worked it out. That is being a submissive wife. It's ALLOWING your husband to make mistakes and not coming down on him when he does and it's not easy for most modern women to do. At the end of the day, I got to work every day and the kids got to school everyday and that's all that mattered.
> 
> I am an educated woman, but I'm smart enough to know that men and women are different. I'm smart enough to know that my strength as a woman lies in my ability to be feminine and obedient to my husband. It's a strength because it's my CHOICE. I don't have to be submissive, but I'm giving my husband a gift if I do and I'm taking the burden off of myself.


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## greenpearl

Scannerguard
An uneducated woman can be opinionated and strong willed too.

I think women from western societies have become very opinionated because of the way they grow up. 

I don't think Chinese are much better because we have that women men have to be equal thing going on too. 

And a lot of women are so wrapped up in their career, they are ignoring their duty as a wife and a mother. 

Where can you find a woman with wisdom? 

I don't think it is easy, I am a pessimist in this area. 

It took me five good years to study life. I actually studied wisdom as a subject. A lot of it is self studying, part of it from attending religious meetings. How many women there want to do it? Some women want to do it, but it is always after their marriages become shattered. 

Religion is good for us in some areas, but bad for us in other areas, too. A lot of people stay away from religion now because they are so disgusted by the hypocrisy. 

But good moral standards are always good for us. Basic family rules are always good for us!!!!!


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## themrs

Deejo said:


> Bingo.


It's no good for a girl either! Women need examples of strong men. They need examples of how to be a submissive wife. A girl without a father in her life is just as doomed to be a controlling, nagging wife as a boy without a father is doomed to be a wimp.


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## Scannerguard

Oh, what the heck. . .while I am blowing my day. . .how about I offer another theoretical solution for our society and let you debate it for a few hours.

If we accept my theory as a given (and you all have been warm to it), but yet, to be "just", we know women deserve education, just as much as men,. . .perhaps the solution is this:

1. To be sustainable, women should focus on their reproduction/family/marriage while young.

2. Attend college later in life, after kids are raised and get an education for whatever motive - self-betterment, more money, etc.

Men, by contrast should get their education/trade squared away first for the family's to provide for young families.

This may take the man/woman competition out of the marketplace and at least restore some sanity to the institution of marriage and our American society.

Colleges wouldn't like it though. . .it's big business of which women are the greatest customers.

But it's a compromise between the Taliban with women and the total women's liberalization we face.

We need young women back in the home being the nutritionist and steward of the home.

Our kids need it.

Men, on the other hand, need to get out and provide.

It doesn't bode well for our society if we have men sitting around and not working.

Ever hear of pitchforks and torches?


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## Deejo

themrs said:


> I am an educated woman, but I'm smart enough to know that men and women are different. I'm smart enough to know that my strength as a woman lies in my ability to be feminine and obedient to my husband. It's a strength because it's my CHOICE. I don't have to be submissive, but I'm giving my husband a gift if I do and I'm taking the burden off of myself.


There is a hot-button word in your post that I believe many of your independent, well educated, sisters would have a fundamental issue with. Of course the fact is, that it cuts both ways. I sincerely hope your husband shares a similar mindset in what he contributes to the success of your marriage. Kudos, seriously. Hope you go the distance ... or at least an equitable decade or two


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## themrs

Scanner - While the men are getting their educations at 18-24, what are women doing during the same years? Are we marrying older men? That's the only way I could see the scenerio working - women would have to get married younger to men at least 6 years their senior.

It would work out better for women who want children because by the time you get out of grad school your prime childbearing years are over. We lose half our eggs at 27.


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## themrs

Deejo said:


> There is a hot-button word in your post that I believe many of your independent, well educated, sisters would have a fundamental issue with. Of course the fact is, that it cuts both ways. I sincerely hope your husband shares a similar mindset in what he contributes to the success of your marriage. Kudos, seriously. Hope you go the distance ... or at least an equitable decade or two


The hot button word being submissive, right? I know. I've argued with my college educated friends and tried to help them see the light. No go. They can't understand the premise of letting a man have his way even when they know they are right. I tell them I'd rather be married than right.

We've been married 6 years in Dec. I think we'll see at least 20 years. LOL! Here's hoping!


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## Scannerguard

Themrs,

Well, I haven't thought my theory for America's ills all the way. .. but. . .well. . .Yes.

Isn't this what grandma used to advise?

There's an old saying, "No man is worth a dam until he's 40."

My father is 9 years older than my mother. All of my friends growing up had this discrepancy it seemed and their marriages were a success.

My marriage? She's older by 3 weeks and here we are - divorcing. . .right when I am worth a dam.

So. .what are men supposed to do for sexual companionship during those years? Well, a Cougar optimally.

See. . .if America would just crown me Emperor, I could have this all worked out


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## greenpearl

A woman should be like spring water, clear, smooth and peaceful.
A woman should be a sexy wife, fulfills her husband's needs. 
A woman should be a loving mother, looks after the kids.
Then if she has some time, she can get a job and make some dollars.

But a man has to cherish her and love her forever!


Is it possible???????????


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## Deejo

I kind of like the 'Brave New World' and 'Logan's Run' models.


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## themrs

Scanner - My grandmother married a man who was 6 years older than her and advised me otherwise. She said he was boring and in later years when she still had energy to go out and be active he was sitting on the couch watching CNN. 

I married a man who is only 6 months older than me, but I've actually read the happiest marriages are those where the man is significantly older than the woman (at least 5 years). Who knows?


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## michzz

Personally, my thinking has evolved to a point where I think the hows and whys and what fors of a relationship have to be worked out between the two people in question. 

The main problem in getting to that working things out is the presumptions each has, the lack of awareness of those presumptions, and an unwillingness to give ground.

Blanket statements based on gender roles of dominance and submission just don't seem all that useful to me.


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## cherrypie18

I think BBW and MEM have perfectly described the type of man I would marry. I always knew that, but could never find the right words to describe it. So thanks 

Regarding Scanner's theory about educated women. It is not just a theory. Actually, you shouldn't compare America or other developed countries and the Taliban. Taliban is an exception, just like those tribes in Africa that cut off the woman's genitals etc. They're extreme cases. 

But if you compare the developed and developing countries, the divorce rate IS rising in the developing countries and only because more and more women are gaining access to higher education, and becoming more opinionated, independent and free. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but the men are failing to catch up lol

I have talked to many people from these developing countries too and they all complain about the rise in divorce and women being "bit**ier" than they used to, not taking crap from anybody including men. Not tolerating being controlled and abused by their men. 

Education does change and has changed us women and how we treat men.


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## Scannerguard

Well Greenpearl,

I am only laying out a blueprint for my peasants as "Emperor." I am only suggesting what *you* all should do, not me, of course 

When I am Emperor of the US of A, I expect for me to have many wives.

I want a brunette, brainy educated wife with her hair in a bun and secretary glasses.

I'll also take a Chinese woman who is submissive but a bit of an ornery streak in her.

I'll take a blonde "Kelly" who works as a check-out girl and an aerobic instructor, who keeps her in a pony tail.

A few others I am not thinking of.

And every night, each one could offer me council, in the bedroom, of course. 



But for now, we should delay women's educations as a general rule if they desire family.

Hey, you women all entered the "Men's Clubhouse" here. Don't knock and enter and expect to be horrified  Oprah once noted that with all of her interview skills and ability to land great interviews, how much of a privledge it was to sit with Tom Hanks and other men in a circle once and eavesdrop on their thinking and conversation.


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## themrs

LOL!


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## nice777guy

If an uneducated woman is abused or treated poorly, she is not as likely to divorce as a woman who knows she can stand on her own.

Increased divorce rates caused by "educated women" can be viewed as both a blessing and a curse when compared to developing nations, or to the "ideals" of our grandparents and older generations. Women in our society have more choices and are not forced to tolerate bad situations in order to keep a roof over their heads.


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## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> If an uneducated woman is abused or treated poorly, she is not as likely to divorce as a woman who knows she can stand on her own.
> 
> Increased divorce rates caused by "educated women" can be viewed as both a blessing and a curse when compared to developing nations, or to the "ideals" of our grandparents and older generations. Women in our society have more choices and are not forced to tolerate bad situations in order to keep a roof over their heads.


Exactly. That is why the divorce rate is rising fast and families are breaking apart. There was a survey in 1 country where they said a lot of abused women do not leave their husbands mostly because they have no place else to go. And those loser "professors" said that it's a good thing in a way, otherwise there would be no families left in the society. So sad. 

Educated women need to chill a little and stop competing so much with men and well castrating them in a sense. I have a bachelor's degree and I would love to get a master's one day, but it's not going to change the fact that I believe "modern" men need to get their balls back and be more dominant. 

If you're going to be switching roles, women might as well start producing more testosterone and men estrogen, why not? Am I going to get bashed for saying that? lol


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## themrs

nice777guy said:


> If an uneducated woman is abused or treated poorly, she is not as likely to divorce as a woman who knows she can stand on her own.
> 
> Increased divorce rates caused by "educated women" can be viewed as both a blessing and a curse when compared to developing nations, or to the "ideals" of our grandparents and older generations. Women in our society have more choices and are not forced to tolerate bad situations in order to keep a roof over their heads.



I agree. In our society however, women are 2/3 more likely to initiate a divorce than men. I guess they are making up for lost time.

It's unfortunate because most women who divorce aren't in "bad situations" because most men aren't abusive. We just have more choices now like you said.


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## Scannerguard

Again, I am suggesting a compromise here:

Delay education of women until later.

Let me ask TheMrs and other educated women. . .after paying $100,000 for college, do you see any compelling reason that your education couldn't have been delayed until let's say you were age 40, especially since women are living to age 80 and beyond now?

When we, as a society, need young women in the home at the age of 18 to 35, to be the steward of the home, to be the family nutritionist and combat childhood obesity on the frontline, is there any compelling reason as society to send women off to college to compete with men? Or could they at least just pick up a course here and there?

Isn't entirely workable that the "female body of knowledge" be kept among the older mothers and grandmothers vs. like how men do it - spread it out equally?

No one with any brain would now dispute that women can just about do anything men can do occupationally (and often better and cheaper). The question is. . .even though they "can", should a young lady do anything occupationally?

Is that the best deployment of human capital?


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## BigBadWolf

themrs said:


> The hot button word being submissive, right? I know. I've argued with my college educated friends and tried to help them see the light. No go. They can't understand the premise of letting a man have his way even when they know they are right. I tell them I'd rather be married than right.


This is exactly like a point I try to make as often as I can.

To speak with words, sexual attractoin, dominance, submission, these things are not effectively communicated with mere words, just as music or colors or a brilliant painting or deep emotions are always more than just the words to describe them.

Your friends, they are taught to be suspicious of men. But that is merely the symptom, and until they are experienced in these things themselves, that is why I tell all good men and women, in matters of sexual attractoin, actions always speak louder than words. Pay attention to your friends as they move through life, what kinds of men do they marry, and how sexual is there relationship and how long does it last. 

These things reveal the truth, never just the mere words reveal the truth.

Look, I am here to tell you this, as a man raised to never hit a woman, until I see with my own eyes the reaction of a woman being spanked (or in any other way you can imagine physically shown dominance even darker and darker things but I stick with spanking to be polite), to see how on fire she is become, until I saw this and experienced this over and over and over and over many times, does it really sink in what is going on.

This is my experience and many times this even in other experiences I am personally knowing, for a woman, to be of the liberal thinking and feminist believing, to be suspicious of men and even flirting with the idea of bisexual or lesbian, to all of a sudden be involved in the sexual relationship with a man that is unlike so many other weak men in her life, to experience for her such a man as to unleash himself without fear, and in her insides is on fire and released herself, so much as to be willing to give this man anything and everything of herself that he desires, to put this reaction and feeling into words, there is not just a little here or a little there to be taken or left, it just is complete and whole.

So it is never these 50/50 or equality talk, but always 100 percent as much as even life and death.

For her submission in this way, is not to even be done without much thought, it is a compulsion, much as we would eat when we are hungry or sleep when we are tired or pull our hand away from a burning flame that we were to touch. 

This compulsion is evidence all around us, even in the most perverted and dark scenarios. 

The woman who will leave a well to do family, children, and nice guy working husband for some seedy affair man with no prospects. Look around this very board.

The abused woman physically hit and threatened who will even fight the very police who try to arrest her battering husband. Read the newspaper.

The millions of prostitutes who will stay with some pimp no matter how notorious her own abuse or situation. Sadly this is all over the world.

All these things are this one thing, the compulsion of a woman to be attracted to this structure, the man strives to dominate, the woman strives to be dominated. It goes beyond logic and reason, this is beyond debate, as this structure is ancient and primal, emotionally driven in the deepest parts of our brains. 

And I will type this since there is some tendancy to assume the worst from some readers, that NO I am NOT advocating violence or prostitution, these are simply examples of this scenario we see publicily and are aware of, of why logic and reason is rarely useful in predicting sexual behavior and why logic and reason and debate is often so confusing regarding sexual matters.

So powerful is the compulsion, to see how useful it would be instead to motivate the good man and woman to be happy and long lasted in marriage, that is the point! 

So in this way, to strive in this way sexually is a active verb, this is an action we do as humans, it is not passive and is not a spectator sport!

To debate these things, may as well debate whether a river flows down stream or up against gravity. The only thing to debate, is how to find our own happiness in such things.

There is the VERY REAL physical reaction to sexual dominance and submission, but it must be experienced to understand, not merely spoken or written about. It is the sexual experience that must be experienced, and it is perhaps the most real experience there is as a human being!


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## Scannerguard

Well, you both hit upon my situation - my wife certainly wasn't abused (emotionally or physically). I was the "nice guy", a former "Modern Man", and she was "just unhappy", so even though I left her, let's face it - she did all she could to drive me out and successfully at that, by being "educated and difficult."

She figured she has better choices.

I wish her luck in her quest.


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## themrs

Scannerguard said:


> Again, I am suggesting a compromise here:
> 
> Delay education of women until later.
> 
> Let me ask TheMrs and other educated women. . .after paying $100,000 for college, do you see any compelling reason that your education couldn't have been delayed until let's say you were age 40, especially since women are living to age 80 and beyond now?
> 
> When we, as a society, need young women in the home at the age of 18 to 35, to be the steward of the home, to be the family nutritionist and combat childhood obesity on the frontline, is there any compelling reason as society to send women off to college to compete with men? Or could they at least just pick up a course here and there?
> 
> Isn't entirely workable that the "female body of knowledge" be kept among the older mothers and grandmothers vs. like how men do it - spread it out equally?
> 
> No one with any brain would now dispute that women can just about do anything men can do occupationally (and often better and cheaper). The question is. . .even though they "can", should a young lady do anything occupationally?
> 
> Is that the best deployment of human capital?


Your theory is flawed only because there are many career paths that women go into more frequently than men like nursing and teaching. We can't really delay the education of nurses and teachers until after their childbearing years. Nurses are already getting older and older by the year. We need a young workforce to replace them as they retire and I doubt men are going to pick up the slack in those areas.

Add to that there are a lot of careers that men generally occupied that do not need a college degree like a mechanic or plumber. Of course they do need training in those areas, but colleges in this day and age are full of women. They don't cater to the needs of men or the careers most men are interested in. 

I would have had no problem delaying my education if I could have married a man who was capable of taking care of me with just the one income. Unfortunately, the standard of living in this country mostly requires two incomes just to stay afloat.


----------



## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> Again, I am suggesting a compromise here:
> 
> Delay education of women until later.
> 
> Let me ask TheMrs and other educated women. . .after paying $100,000 for college, do you see any compelling reason that your education couldn't have been delayed until let's say you were age 40, especially since women are living to age 80 and beyond now?
> 
> When we, as a society, need young women in the home at the age of 18 to 35, to be the steward of the home, to be the family nutritionist and combat childhood obesity on the frontline, is there any compelling reason as society to send women off to college to compete with men? Or could they at least just pick up a course here and there?
> 
> Isn't entirely workable that the "female body of knowledge" be kept among the older mothers and grandmothers vs. like how men do it - spread it out equally?
> 
> No one with any brain would now dispute that women can just about do anything men can do occupationally (and often better and cheaper). The question is. . .even though they "can", should a young lady do anything occupationally?
> 
> Is that the best deployment of human capital?


Why delay it until you're 40 if you can be finished when you're in your mid 20s? Personally I got married after I graduated and I would not wait until I was 40 to do so. 

I did not go to school because I wanted to compete with men, it was just the next step after graduating high school and at the time you don't think about marriage etc. you only think about getting a degree in order to be able to find a job and break away from the parents lol


----------



## michzz

The psychological manipulation of prostitutes using fear, physical abuse, and financial control, coupled with sexual abuse, drug addiction is so far away from discussing male and female marital roles as possible.

Healthy people generally do not want to be beaten. Those that protect their abusers are trying to survive.


----------



## Scannerguard

BBW,

I agree with your assessment of our "base tendencies" (as a generalization).

I think in the context of marriage though, you have to surrender some of your base tendencies as a man or woman because "marriage" is a civilized institution so while you don't think these arguments/discussion are productive, I think they are for finding that balance between our base tendencies and how we can be civil and "sustainable" as a society.

Otherwise, all (most?) men would be polygamous and dominating women much in my Emperor fantasy up there and acting uncivil (treating wife like a prostitute as per your example). In this, the "nice guy" does have some adaptable traits. Without the "nice guy", without "Good Kirk", you can't run the Enterprise either as it just become chaos.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Your theory is flawed only because there are many career paths that women go into more frequently than men like nursing and teaching.


Are you saying what your Emperor decreed was flawed? 

Yes, the healthcare force is aging in the traditional female roles like nursing.

The nice thing about nursing and teaching is they are jobs you can have with a family so those are exceptions.

Doctors, lawyers, accountants - Me Man. You Woman. 

No women allowed, except after 40.



Welcome to the Men's Clubhouse. Next question.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Please avoid shaming tactics. 

Honestly the arrogance on this forum is sometimes shocking.

"Healthy people" also want to enjoy sexually exciting relationships. 

If you doubt there is the powerful sexual compulsion to a prostitutes devotion to her pimp, then I suggest you talk to a few. 



michzz said:


> The psychological manipulation of prostitutes using fear, physical abuse, and financial control, coupled with sexual abuse, drug addiction is so far away from discussing male and female martial roles as possible.
> 
> Healthy people generally do not want to be beaten. Those that protect their abusers are trying to survive.


----------



## michzz

BigBadWolf said:


> Please avoid shaming tactics.
> 
> Honestly the arrogance on this forum is sometimes shocking.
> 
> "Healthy people" also want to enjoy sexually exciting relationships.
> 
> If you doubt there is the powerful sexual compulsion to a prostitutes devotion to her pimp, then I suggest you talk to a few.


I stand by what I wrote. If you take offense, that is your privilege.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Why delay it until you're 40 if you can be finished when you're in your mid 20s? Personally I got married after I graduated and I would not wait until I was 40 to do so.


Because society needs your ovaries, and homemaking skills, which requires multi-tasking, which men can't do, while you were off studying beer, botany, and Beowulf at college. 

Kids need a nutritionist/cook and the rampant childhood obesity is proof.

That's why.

Next question.


----------



## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> Because society needs your ovaries, and homemaking skills, which requires multi-tasking, which men can't do, while you were off studying beer, botany, and Beowulf at college.
> 
> Kids need a nutritionist/cook and the rampant childhood obesity is proof.
> 
> That's why.
> 
> Next question.


Who's kids? College/university students don't have kids and therefore they're free to pursue whatever they want.

Obese kids should be taken care of by their mothers and that's a bit of a different subject.

Sorry I'm a little confused here lol


----------



## Scannerguard

Well, of course you are confused. You are a woman in the Men's Clubhouse, LOL.

No, what I mean is society has lost fulltime mothers for reasons way beyond current Modern Woman's control.

With the loss of fulltime mothers and the rise of "quick foods", our kids have suffered nutritionally.

We need young women to get back in the home and set things straight. I know I worry about that as a single, divorced father.

Which is why I am taking cooking classes.

So I can meet a woman who knows how to cook  (you didn't think I was actually there to learn how to cook, did you?), a hot Italian woman with a pretty smile, with a first name like Rachel, or a cute Chinese woman perhaps. I like Chinese food and it can be healthy. Or maybe Kelly can cook too. . .

What are my kids supposed to eat the rest of their childhood? Hotdogs and Tombstone pizza?


----------



## cherrypie18

Now I have a university degree, then got married, had a baby, now I'm getting divorced. But my initial goal was to get a degree, get married, have a baby, raise her until she was at least in primary school and then pursue a career. Is that good enough? That would make me over 30...


----------



## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> Well, of course you are confused. You are a woman in the Men's Clubhouse, LOL.
> 
> No, what I mean is society has lost fulltime mothers for reasons way beyond current Modern Woman's control.
> 
> With the loss of fulltime mothers and the rise of "quick foods", our kids have suffered nutritionally.
> 
> We need young women to get back in the home and set things straight. I know I worry about that as a single, divorced father.
> 
> Which is why I am taking cooking classes.
> 
> So I can meet a woman who knows how to cook  (you didn't think I was actually there to learn how to cook, did you?), a hot Italian woman with a pretty smile, with a first name like Rachel, or a cute Chinese woman perhaps. I like Chinese food and it can be healthy. Or maybe Kelly can cook too. . .
> 
> What are my kids supposed to eat the rest of their childhood? Hotdogs and Tombstone pizza?


See the thing is a woman can't be both 100% devoted to being a mother and wife and at the same time being a career woman. She needs to choose either frozen foods and career now, or healthy food and career later. I would choose healthy food=healthy kids lol I think I got what you meant.


----------



## Scannerguard

Wellll. . .we are both being civil and joking here (and I thank you for keeping the tone like that). . .but yes, I don't think we as a society can "have our cake and eat it too."

Yes, some women pull it off - become edubacated, get married, have babies, have careers, have well-adjusted, healthy children. . .and happy marriages.

Statistics seem to side with me though on this on what's really happening out there rather than what's happening on TV.


----------



## nice777guy

As a recovering Nice Guy, it isn't only about struggling in your marriage. Its also about how you interact with your children, your boss, your co-workers - and most importantly, how you view yourself. I also believe that most of the principles regarding how to recover from being a "nice guy" can also be applied to women who are putting the needs of others ahead of their own.

I still believe that it is as much about personality as it is gender roles. An educated woman with a dominant personality can be an excellent fit for an educated "nice guy." Relationships can only sustain one dominant personality type - whether its male or female. Two stubborn, strong-willed people will not likely make life-long companions.

I also struggle with much of this because I have two young daughters. I want them to KNOW that they are truly EQUAL to men, but I also want them to know that there is great pride to be had in being a faithful wife and loving mother.


----------



## Scannerguard

They aren't "equal to men", but I'd like to think they are "equitable" in abilities and skill and you would teach them that as a recovering nice guy.

To me, equal means the same. 

2 + 2 = 4 ( in a base 10 numeric system )

To me, to say

man = woman

is illogical and I think for about 30 years nobody has had the testosterone to stand up and say how ridiculous Gloria Steinham's mathmatical theories are.


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


> I also struggle with much of this because I have two young daughters. I want them to KNOW that they are truly EQUAL to men, but I also want them to know that there is great pride to be had in being a faithful wife and loving mother.



I feel equal to men. I just know men and women aren't the same. I think men and women are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses.


----------



## themrs

Scannerguard said:


> They aren't "equal to men", but I'd like to think they are "equitable" in abilities and skill and you would teach them that as a recovering nice guy.
> 
> To me, equal means the same.
> 
> 2 + 2 = 4 ( in a base 10 numeric system )
> 
> To me, to say
> 
> man = woman
> 
> is illogical and I think for about 30 years nobody has had the testosterone to stand up and say how ridiculous Gloria Steinham's mathmatical theories are.


I think that's semantics. I do feel equal to men. To me it would be like superheroes who have diffrent abilites. They are equally matched, but their strengths lie in different areas. No one is stronger than the other, they are just different.


----------



## nice777guy

Well, if we had a pi$$ing contest - for distance - yes - I would win every time.

Do you / we / the fine readers of this board truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers? 

Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


> Well, if we had a pi$$ing contest - for distance - yes - I would win every time.
> 
> Do you / we / the fine readers of this board truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers?
> 
> Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?


No, I do not feel my husband has superior intellect or is a better decision maker than me. I just feel like his ego is more fragile than mine and he needs to be in charge more than I do. I don't desire to be in charge, but he does. It's like a need for him, but it's not a need for me. In fact, I would prefer I don't have to be in charge. 

I will tell my husband how I feel. I do get a vote, but I let him have the final decision. It makes sense to me because there are only two of us and somebody has to have the final say or else nothing would get done.


----------



## cherrypie18

themrs said:


> I feel equal to men. I just know men and women aren't the same. I think men and women are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses.


We're equal as citizens, as human beings, we all have equal rights and such but we are not the same. We each have our roles to "play". 

Even from birth, you can observe boys and girls and as much as they're similar, they also have major differences. Here's the simplest example, most boys are fascinated with guns and cars and girls with dolls and makeup. My own daughter she's an infant and loves dolls, there are cars and boy toys in the house as well but she doesn't go near them lol 

Yeah a lot of boys will try their mom's clothes and makeup too and girls do play with guns and cars too but in the end they end up with what's "assigned" to them...men being hunters and providers and women being mothers and homemakers. 

Now when a woman crushes her boy's balls and tells him it's ok to act like a girl, and encourages her daughter that it's ok to behave like a boy, that's where everything kind of goes wrong, and that's how we end up with doormats and "opinionated" women. Not even education has so much to do with today's gender problems as how we were raised to think.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I feel equal to men. I just know men and women aren't the same. I think men and women are equal, we just have different strengths and weaknesses.


You have now touched upon what I mean with equitable vs. equal.


----------



## nice777guy

*Re: The rules*



MEM11363 said:


> If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:
> 1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger.
> 2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.
> 3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them.
> 4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence.
> 5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.
> 6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.
> 7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.
> 8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.
> 9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.
> 10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.
> 11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent.
> 12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner.
> 13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.


With the exception of #12 - these all seem to me to apply just as much to women as they do to men. And #12 applies to women regarding the other relationships with the men in their day to day lives - co-workers, boss, etc.,


----------



## Scannerguard

Cherrypie,



> We're equal as citizens, as human beings, we all have equal rights and such but we are not the same. We each have our roles to "play".


There ya go, Cherrypie.

Sergeant-at-Arms! Fetch me a Honoray Mens' Clubhouse membership - she can be a "little sister".

She knows her place


----------



## cherrypie18

themrs said:


> No, I do not feel my husband has superior intellect or is a better decision maker than me. I just feel like his ego is more fragile than mine and he needs to be in charge more than I do. I don't desire to be in charge, but he does. It's like a need for him, but it's not a need for me. In fact, I would prefer I don't have to be in charge.
> 
> I will tell my husband how I feel. I do get a vote, but I let him have the final decision. It makes sense to me because there are only two of us and somebody has to have the final say or else nothing would get done.


I also feel this way. I tried to get my husband to lead more and it got frustrating when he wouldn't.


----------



## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> Cherrypie,
> 
> 
> 
> There ya go, Cherrypie.
> 
> Sergeant-at-Arms! Fetch me a Honoray Mens' Clubhouse membership - she can be a "little sister".
> 
> She knows her place


:woohoo: lol


----------



## nice777guy

cherrypie18 said:


> I also feel this way. I tried to get my husband to lead more and it got frustrating when he wouldn't.


So, you are both either trying to change your husband, or protect your husband's fragile ego?


----------



## nice777guy

Do we truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers? 

Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> So, you are both either trying to change or protect your husband?


I just wanted him to protect ME and he would not. I felt unsafe and I tried to remind him that he should be the lead but his mom kept reminding him he shouldn't have to carry the "burden". So his mom kept de-balling him and I tried to make him get them back. If you want to call it trying to change him, then maybe I was?


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> Do we truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers?


No, but we like to make you think you do


----------



## nice777guy

cherrypie18 said:


> I just wanted him to protect ME and he would not. I felt unsafe and I tried to remind him that he should be the lead but his mom kept reminding him he shouldn't have to carry the "burden". So his mom kept de-balling him and I tried to make him get them back. If you want to call it trying to change him, then maybe I was?


How did you want him to protect you?

Also, no one can "de-ball" you but yourself. If you saw that he couldn't stand up to his own mother, then maybe that should have been your warning sign.

Is that really a "gender" issue, or a personality issue?


----------



## nice777guy

I'm detecting a lot of subtle manipulation here from these "submissive" women...


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> How did you want him to protect you?
> 
> Also, no one can "de-ball" you but yourself. If you saw that he couldn't stand up to his own mother, then maybe that should have been your warning sign.


I wanted him to make me feel safe in our marriage, to know that I could depend on him no matter what, that he would stand up for us and our marriage and never let anyone come between us.

Yes you're right no one can "de-ball" a GROWN person, so I'll rephrase it "he _allowed_ her do that to him". 

I was too blindly in love to see it as a warning sign at first.

Ahh nice777guy you edit your post AFTER I've quoted it lol I think it's a personality issue but in which the mother plays a big part, which eventually turns into a gender issue. Mothers need to raise their boys as men and encourage them to be men, teach them about women and the difference between men and women so the boy won't grow up to be his mom's and his future wife's doormat.


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> I'm detecting a lot of subtle manipulation here from these "submissive" women...


LOL oh come on I was only kidding


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


> So, you are both either trying to change your husband, or protect your husband's fragile ego?


In so much as my husband wants to protect me, I want to protect him. I can't physically protect him from danger, but I can protect his manhood by not embarassing him or making him feel like less than a man. 

I say my husband's ego is fragile because it is. When he makes a mistake, he takes it so much harder than I do. I feel like women are way more emotionally stronger than men because our emotions are not stifled. We are able to exercise our emotions and cry from the time we are young ,but men aren't. Knowing this, when my husband is feeling at his weakest it is then when I try to build him up the most. In that way, I feel I protect his ego and help him regain his confidence.


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


> I'm detecting a lot of subtle manipulation here from these "submissive" women...


It's not manipulation. I'm not trying to trick my husband into doing something he doesn't want to do. I just know that what I do and say has more influence over him than anything else. What I do and say almost assuredly determines what he does. Knowing this, I have to choose my actions wisely. I can build him up or crush him with my words. I chose to build him up whenever possible and in return I get a confident, thoughtful husband.


----------



## Deejo

Let's all just accept that some husbands and wives are simply friggin idiots. I don't feel compelled to qualify my statement beyond just that.

Present company excluded but the term 'friggin idiot' may or may not pertain to the partners or former partners of present company within the Men's Clubhouse. See your ex-partner for details.


----------



## cherrypie18

Deejo said:


> Let's all just accept that some husbands and wives are simply friggin idiots. I don't feel compelled to qualify my statement beyond just that.
> 
> Present company excluded but the term 'friggin idiot' may or may not pertain to the partners or former partners of present company within the Men's Clubhouse. See your ex-partner for details.


Your putting it this way makes me feel like the whole discussion was pointless and a waste of time lol


----------



## nice777guy

The impression that I've gotten is that BBW and MEM have great relationships with their wives. I'm just not convinced that what works for them will work for everyone else.

Deejo - now you have me wondering - if dom marries sub, nice marries mean, who do the friggin' idiots marry?

And themrs and cherrypie - why am I starting to picture George Jefferson, Ralph Kramden (?sp?), (Everybody Loves) Raymond or most of the TV husbands who think they are in control - until the end of the episode when the wife has to swoop in and teach them the lesson of the day? 

You're saying you want want Ward Cleaver, but are you really willing to be June and wear the pearls while you cook dinner and we sit back and read the paper?

And please, no jokes about being too hard on the beaver...


----------



## themrs

cherrypie18 said:


> Your putting it this way makes me feel like the whole discussion was pointless and a waste of time lol



Wasn't a waste of time to me. I enjoyed the conversation!


----------



## Deejo

It's more of a disclaimer to enable further discussion.

Not all partners are 'worth' the effort to keep them.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Deejo - now you have me wondering - if dom marries sub, nice marries mean, who do the friggin' idiots marry?


I have thought about this a great deal, and it seems clear that most friggin idiots marry Yankees fans.

Oh ... and you left out accuracy. We can pi$$ farther, and with better accuracy. We can write our names in the snow ...


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


> The impression that I've gotten is that BBW and MEM have great relationships with their wives. I'm just not convinced that what works for them will work for everyone else.
> 
> Deejo - now you have me wondering - if dom marries sub, nice marries mean, who do the friggin' idiots marry?
> 
> And themrs and cherrypie - why am I starting to picture George Jefferson, Ralph Kramden (?sp?), (Everybody Loves) Raymond or most of the TV husbands who think they are in control - until the end of the episode when the wife has to swoop in and teach them the lesson of the day?
> 
> You're saying you want want Ward Cleaver, but are you really willing to be June and wear the pearls while you cook dinner and we sit back and read the paper?
> 
> And please, no jokes about being too hard on the beaver...



LOL! I would NEVER treat my husband the way tv wives treat their husbands. That's why they are on sitcoms. It's all a joke. They make men look incapable of doing ANYTHING on those shows and women are martyrs that do EVERYTHING and can't get their husbands do wash a dish. No thank you.

My husband IS in control, but I influence his decisions. I don't want to be in control of my husband. I trust him.


----------



## nice777guy

themrs said:


> LOL! I would NEVER treat my husband the way tv wives treat their husbands. That's why they are on sitcoms. It's all a joke. They make men look incapable of doing ANYTHING on those shows and women are martyrs that do EVERYTHING and can't get their husbands do wash a dish. No thank you.
> 
> My husband IS in control, but I influence his decisions. I don't want to be in control of my husband. I trust him.


I don't even think that Cliff Huxtable was in control.

WE NEED MORE ARCHIE BUNKERS!!!

"And you knew who you were then
Girls were girls and men were men"


----------



## nice777guy

themrs said:


> I can build him up or crush him with my words.


----------



## themrs

nice777guy said:


>


Fine, roll your eyes. But it's true. Men have the same ability to make a woman feel beautiful or rob her of her self esteem. It's not a mystery.


----------



## nice777guy

Yes - I know. I realize I was taking your words out of context. It just played too well into my "manipulation" idea.

TV shows really did change sometime - maybe early 80s. Used to be the husband was a strong man who was in charge. Now he's usually the lovable oaf who has to hope that his wife or kids come along to bail him out of trouble.


----------



## cherrypie18

themrs said:


> LOL! I would NEVER treat my husband the way tv wives treat their husbands. That's why they are on sitcoms. It's all a joke. They make men look incapable of doing ANYTHING on those shows and women are martyrs that do EVERYTHING and can't get their husbands do wash a dish. No thank you.
> 
> My husband IS in control, but I influence his decisions. I don't want to be in control of my husband. I trust him.



But it's jokes based on real life...

Oh but my MIL was a lot like Ray's mom LOL

I would not and did not treat my husband like Deborah treats Ray. Ray is kind of a lazy doormat and it's men like that who end up with control freaks and eventually get taken advantage of.


----------



## nice777guy

cherrypie18 said:


> Mothers need to raise their boys as men and encourage them to be men, teach them about women and the difference between men and women so the boy won't grow up to be his mom's and his future wife's doormat.


But we are raised almost exclusively by women.

My girls were recently commenting and laughing that there was a MALE homeroom teacher at their grade school. They just think it seems ridiculous.

Women raise us. We don't have much exposure to men - except for a small amount of time at home with Dad in the evening and maybe the weekend. And what we see on TV or movies. 

If a parent stays home, its almost always the mother. At school and daycare - more women in charge. Maybe a male principal - who we only see if we are bad. Or a male gym teacher - offset by a female gym teacher.

Maybe we need more stay at home dads?


----------



## Scannerguard

> Maybe we need more stay at home dads?


Sergeant-At-Arms!

Please escort this "niceguy" out the door of the Men's Clubhouse and don't let him back in for a week while he ponders what he just wrote.


----------



## nice777guy

Is it not part of the problem that we grow up without much in terms of male role models?

And I'm telling you, cherrypie is a manipulative spy!!!


----------



## Scannerguard

Talk about sitcoms, this reminds me of an old Family Ties episode when Alex Keaten played by Michael J. Fox walks into his little brother's daycare center.

He is playing in the kitchen and asks his brother: "What are you doing?"

The little brother answers: "Taking care of the house and changing the baby."

Alex then asks, "Where is your wife?"

The little brother answers matter-of-factly: "She's at work."

Alex scoops him up and runs out the daycare center: "We are outta here!!!"

LOL.


----------



## Mom6547

> And believe it or not roles are a good thing and even important. Everybody has their own roles be it at home, school, work, church and just wherever. It's all about roles and everyone doing their part. It would be a mess if the roles got mixed and people did each others jobs. That is how problems are caused. It's not immature at all.


Unless you are one of those people who doesn't fit the gender roles. Like me. And my husband.


----------



## Scannerguard

Anyway, there is a reason these shows have the all-knowing wise woman and the bumbling Dad/husband - it's an extension of the commercials.

Women drive consumption in the US and advertisers will go with TV shows and commercials that portray this and reinforce women's needs to feel good about themselves, that they need to degrade men.

This is the magic of beer commercials. 

Beer commercials are men degrading other men ("Real Men of Genius" was my favorite longstanding beer commercial) or just simply allowing men to drink beer and saying it's okay.

I also liked the beer commercial of a man sitting at a bar asking if these jeans maked him look fat. LOL!


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> But we are raised almost exclusively by women.
> 
> Women raise us. We don't have much exposure to men - except for a small amount of time at home with Dad in the evening and maybe the weekend. And what we see on TV or movies.


This is why nobody kicked sand in a Spartan's face.


----------



## nice777guy

What if the Spartan was a friggin' idiot? Or a Yankee's fan?


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> Is it not part of the problem that we grow up without much in terms of male role models?
> 
> And I'm telling you, cherrypie is a manipulative spy!!!


I'm actually a double agent! but shh 

No I am not submissive in the sense that I will obey every word my husband says. And I'm also not manipulative, if anything my mother in law tried to teach me to be just that and control my husband and I refused so they started to dislike me.

I was raised in a house where my mother NEVER not even for a second worked, she was home raising us and my dad was out providing for us. He NEVER did any kind of housework so I see it as being normal when the man doesn't do house chores. I also see it as ok if he helps the woman, not replaces her but helps her, gives her a hand if she needs him to. I wouldn't ever be turned on if my husband put on rubber gloves and washed dishes or scrubbed the toilet. 

Oh just please read MEM and BBW's posts and you'll know what I mean.


----------



## cherrypie18

nice777guy said:


> But we are raised almost exclusively by women.
> 
> My girls were recently commenting and laughing that there was a MALE homeroom teacher at their grade school. They just think it seems ridiculous.
> 
> Women raise us. We don't have much exposure to men - except for a small amount of time at home with Dad in the evening and maybe the weekend. And what we see on TV or movies.
> 
> If a parent stays home, its almost always the mother. At school and daycare - more women in charge. Maybe a male principal - who we only see if we are bad. Or a male gym teacher - offset by a female gym teacher.
> 
> Maybe we need more stay at home dads?


Um back in the older days it was exclusively the women who raised all the men and they grew up into pretty great leaders. Nowadays, more men are involved and well.. hence the gender problem.

Women and can make you and they can break you. It's all up to us. It's simply a choice. Trust me. This is the manipulative spy inside me speaking  That is why some turn out to be masculine, and others a momma's boy. Depends on how the woman brainwashes the kid.

When you're older, that's when it's not up to us anymore and god gave you a head with brains, use it!


----------



## nice777guy

My mother also stayed at home - but was not educated. I was an only child. When I left home, it was almost as if she lost her identity.

And - while I'm sharing - my dad spent much of his time either working, or saddled up next to a bar.

As a kid I recognized this at some level, and went into "make mom happy" mode. Hence - I believe - the origins of my "nice guy" personality.

My dad eventually sobered up and stayed that way. As I grew older (college age), I did begin to respect some of the things he had been doing. 

But there was a lot of my young life where it was just me and mom.


----------



## nice777guy

cherrypie18 said:


> Um back in the older days it was exclusively the women who raised all the men and they grew up into pretty great leaders. Nowadays, more men are involved and well.. hence the gender problem.
> 
> Women and can make you and they can break you. It's all up to us. It's simply a choice. Trust me. This is the manipulative spy inside me speaking
> 
> When you're older, that's when it's not up to us anymore and god gave you a head with brains, use it!


Go back a bit farther, and many of us would have been raised on a farm - and would have started at a young age working alongside our father and other male relatives. Or we would have been trained at a younger age - possibly by our father - in some sort of trade.


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> Do we truly think that men have superior intellect or are better decision makers?
> 
> Or is it simply because women make the breast milk and have the babies that leaves them with an "equitable" 49% of the vote within a "healthy" marriage?


You have such a way with words! LOL :rofl:

I don't think that my husband (Tanelornpete) has a superior intellect or is a better decision maker. I believe we have complementary intellects and we are both utterly capable of making decisions. We also both are comfortable speaking to each other honestly and being open with each other about our thoughts and feelings--that safety/protection concept is a big one. BUT at the end of the day, someone has to be the one designated to make the decision. 

I can't speak for every couple but the way we do it is that he seeks out my input and then either he makes the decision outright or he decides "You choose on this one as either way seems reasonable to me." Thus if I have a preference we can choose to go with that preference. To my mind, the way and style that BBW and MEM use is a little more dominant than the way we do it, but it's darn close and the concept is right. Our personal execution is more like this: "You're the expert at this one dear so you take the lead on that project" or "We agree to tackle this or that together." It always comes back to one thing though...HE makes that determination just because someone has to be picked. 

I think those who protest the man taking the lead usually have at some point experienced a man who is abusive in his leadership, and this creates a wife who is unruly and unwilling to yield to that kind of treatment. When a man is firm but also openly communicates, "I will listen; I will take your opinion into account," it makes a world of difference and puts the wife in a position of not being afraid to "let go of the reins" and let him be the leader he is.


----------



## cherrypie18

"Men are what their mothers made them." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Even so, maybe the boys were trained by their father or other males, but in the end, when the dad yells at the son to toughen up, it's up to the mother to either go hug the son and baby him saying poor baby it's ok bla bla bla, or she can sit and let the man do what he has to do to turn the boy into a man. 

I have 2 bothers and my mom never babied either of them and they're not sissy. My MIL on the other hand, still babies my husband and he's almost 30 and I hate his guts! See the difference?


----------



## nice777guy

cherrypie18 said:


> "Men are what their mothers made them." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
> 
> Even so, maybe the boys were trained by their father or other males, but in the end, when the dad yells at the son to toughen up, it's up to the mother to either go hug the son and baby him saying poor baby it's ok bla bla bla, or she can sit and let the man do what he has to do to turn the boy into a man.
> 
> I have 2 bothers and my mom never babied either of them and they're not sissy. My MIL on the other hand, still babies my husband and he's almost 30 and I hate his guts! See the difference?


Yes - I see that women are secretly in control and they don't like it.

:scratchhead:

That you can crush us at any time...but you want us to protect you...

:scratchhead:

Oh yeah - and you want to be spanked - but in a respectful, loving way.

Its all becoming quite clear...and I need an asprin and a stiff drink...


----------



## Scannerguard

"All women become their mothers. That is their tragedy.

All men can never become theirs. That is theirs."

- Alexander Pope.


----------



## Scannerguard

BTW, men. . .if you are ever in an argument that's heated with your wife and you are losing, you can always say,

"You know who you are just like? You are just like your mother!!!"

They love that. It always wins the argument.

Ask the women here.

Trust me.


----------



## cherrypie18

Scannerguard said:


> BTW, men. . .if you are ever in an argument that's heated with your wife and you are losing, you can always say,
> 
> "You know who you are just like? You are just like your mother!!!"
> 
> They love that. It always wins the argument.
> 
> Ask the women here.
> 
> Trust me.


Hahaha kind of true. Although I respect and adore some of my moms traits, I'm not like her and will not turn into her although I do have a few of her traits, but I also have some of my father's. Guess I'm a 50/50 mix lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Scannerguard

"Deep within man dwell those slumbering powers; powers that would astonish him, that he would never dream of possessing; forces that would revolutionize his life if aroused and put into action." - Orison Swett Marden


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: The rules*

NG,
I really did target this list at men. And yet I agree that it works well in reverse. And actually I DO love my W more because she has number 12 going full steam. She does assert herself consistently and in a fair and rational way. 




nice777guy said:


> With the exception of #12 - these all seem to me to apply just as much to women as they do to men. And #12 applies to women regarding the other relationships with the men in their day to day lives - co-workers, boss, etc.,


----------



## MEM2020

I love my strong opinionated educated woman. She does attempt to bust / remove my balls. I can't explain why she does it anymore than I can tell you why this has become such a great source of entertainment to me. 




cherrypie18 said:


> We're equal as citizens, as human beings, we all have equal rights and such but we are not the same. We each have our roles to "play".
> 
> Even from birth, you can observe boys and girls and as much as they're similar, they also have major differences. Here's the simplest example, most boys are fascinated with guns and cars and girls with dolls and makeup. My own daughter she's an infant and loves dolls, there are cars and boy toys in the house as well but she doesn't go near them lol
> 
> Yeah a lot of boys will try their mom's clothes and makeup too and girls do play with guns and cars too but in the end they end up with what's "assigned" to them...men being hunters and providers and women being mothers and homemakers.
> 
> Now when a woman crushes her boy's balls and tells him it's ok to act like a girl, and encourages her daughter that it's ok to behave like a boy, that's where everything kind of goes wrong, and that's how we end up with doormats and "opinionated" women. Not even education has so much to do with today's gender problems as how we were raised to think.


----------



## greenpearl

You guys had a lot of fun while I was sleeping.:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:

I wonder if there is a cure for marriage problems. Because there isn't a cure for human problems.

Deep down in human nature, they are selfish. Everybody wants to protect their own rights. They only think what they don't get, they don't think what they get. 

Men are becoming more obsessed with their career, they want to win among their male competition, they ignore their duties as a husband and a father. They stay out all day and all night, think that they are working for their family, actually they are working for themselves, that's why there are so many unhappy women. 

Women have to become independent because they don't trust men. If they are well taken care of and well respected by their men, I don't think they want to go out and be career women. But after tasting the good feeling being independent, they ignore their duties as a wife and a mother, they forget that they are still women, they need men. When they realize that, it is already too late. 

Men, women, is there any chance that you let go of yourself, and work together for your happy marriage?


----------



## nice777guy

Noticed a thread today in the Sex section - a guy asking what women want in bed.

Best answer by far - don't worry about what "women" want - try asking your wife what she might want!


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Noticed a thread today in the Sex section - a guy asking what women want in bed.
> 
> Best answer by far - don't worry about what "women" want - try asking your wife what she might want!


Perfect answer!!!
Sex is about him and her. He doesn't represent all men. She doesn't represent all women. As long as his needs and her needs are satisfied, then they are satisfied!


----------



## nice777guy

But doesn't that apply here as well? That not all women want the same things in the bedroom - or even just the same things in general?


----------



## Deejo

Yes. Boys and young men require positive, and present, male role models.

Men need to spend time in the company of men, rather than avoiding such gatherings because their female partner disapproves or feels slighted.

Men need to follow a relationship guide primarily laid out by other men ... not women. The guide is simple. It is far more about being honest with yourself and others, and having a personal code of conduct that centers around the truth of who you are than it is about trying to be who you think you should to hold onto, and make a woman happy.
Don't rely on a woman to define who you are, or to act as your anchor to personal happiness. 

We engage in intimate relationships for sex. We stay in them because there are elements that contribute more fulfillment than sex alone. Take sex out of the equation and you may have a relationship, but it is no longer an intimate one. That's a man's definition pure and simple.

That can be the working model for Emperor SG's United States of ManLand Charter.


----------



## Scannerguard

Deejo,

I approve. I award you a cabinet position. :smthumbup:

I think the main thing to remember about all of this is that these are all generalizations. And that's fine. . .we need to generalize.

If marriage is like building a house, well, you need a blueprint and I think what we have offered (man in charge, woman as council) is a simple blueprint.

If you want to deviate from the blueprint and it works for you, because you have a sunroom in the back, or a swimming pool in the backyard, well, do what works for you, of course. I would just say deviate with care as I think the principles for a sound structure within a marriage have been laid out here.

Modern Men and Modern Women, be aware - they don't make houses like they used to.

And for God's sake. . .no going potty in front of each other. That's going in the charter by decree.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> But doesn't that apply here as well? That not all women want the same things in the bedroom - or even just the same things in general?


I agree with you. 
I actually feel very low today. 
Nobody is the same. Is there a rule? 
She could be your perfect match, but with somebody else, she might be horrible. You might be able to make her happy, but somebody else might make her feel miserable. 


No matter what, I want this world to be with more happy people!!!


----------



## greenpearl

Scannerguard said:


> Deejo,
> 
> I approve. I award you a cabinet position. :smthumbup:
> 
> I think the main thing to remember about all of this is that these are all generalizations. And that's fine. . .we need to generalize.
> 
> If marriage is like building a house, well, you need a blueprint and I think what we have offered (man in charge, woman as council) is a simple blueprint.
> 
> If you want to deviate from the blueprint and it works for you, because you have a sunroom in the back, or a swimming pool in the backyard, well, do what works for you, of course. I would just say deviate with care as I think the principles for a sound structure within a marriage have been laid out here.
> 
> Modern Men and Modern Women, be aware - they don't make houses like they used to.


When we buy houses , they are all very beautiful. Why do a lot of houses still stay beautiful and some other houses crumble after many years? 

When people get married, they all have beautiful smiles, they all vow to be together forever. Why do they change after a few years? 

Do they try hard to maintain it?


----------



## greenpearl

A house needs decoration to make it beautiful. A house needs the owner to clean it and fix it regularly. 
How about a marriage? 
What makes a marriage beautiful? Appreciation? What helps a marriage stay? Compromise?

There are more, more, more ways to help marriages stay!!!


----------



## nice777guy

I truly don't believe that most people understand the level of commitment that they are making when they get married. The years of ups and downs. The meaning of "for better or worse."

We all have our parents to model from - but of course most of them did their best to hide the bad and difficult times from us. My wife's parents still seem "perfect" - but my MIL will sometimes open up a bit to my wife about their problems - about how she feels stuck.

And no one starts reading a book, or going to counseling, until its almost too late to save it.

So - I keep thinking "what was the original question" that started this thread? Oh yeah - modern men. Maybe it doesn't matter what kind of man we are - modern or neanderthal or somewhere in between - whether we're more like Ray Ramano or John Wayne - if we and our partners don't understand what we are getting ourselves into.

"Nobody told me there'd be days like these...most peculiar"


----------



## Zammo

It's important to understand and accept the politicization of gender relationships. For two generations women have been taught that housework, motherhood, and even being a wife is a form of masculine oppression. This is why the word "submit" is so powerful and dangerous. Women are now supposed to be "strong and independent" which has been translated into "bossy and domineering", traits which most men - not the "Nice Guys" - find repellent and wildly unattractive.

These lessons simply can't be undone. Is it any wonder why women are so confused and conflicted? Their biology tells them one thing (safety, security, and family) and social expectations tell them something completely different ("never submit to a man!"). 

Men are also facing mixed messages. Consider the recent Newsweek article "Mens Lib" where the authors state that men must act in a more feminine manner.

Men must escalate their essential masculine strengths in order to succeed in their lives and their relationships. Being the Nice Guy and letting women have their way will most always result in a failed relationship.

Now, if women could realize that being bossy and domineering is not attractive. :rofl:


----------



## BigBadWolf

Zammo,

Good points, and the truth is there are also many women not buying into this feminist ideas hook line and sinker as well. 

The finesse for all good men, is to never assume all women are this way or that way concerning some modern way of thinking, but to let the individual woman speak for herself.

I work in my career among many high success and educated women, and can name many of them that are rejecting mostly or all these feminist stereotypes and are either in good relationships or would potentially be excellent in relationships, at least to speak of relationships as they are willing to reveal.

And of course can name many of them at my career and social circles that most men should avoid marriage with at all costs!

And even some of the more successful ones, it is clear with the conversations do drift to these types of topics, that absolutley behind closed doors they are not wanting to be with a man that is not the toe to toe match for her, and unable to make her feel as a woman.

But know this, even to interview a potential candidate or get to know a potential client or vendor or contracting engineer, if this person is a woman who one of the first things out of her mouth is how she is quick to stand up to a man, or not take anything from a man other such thing, then it is common among those of who have been around the block that there is some compensation maybe being covered up. 

For in my experience, and especially noticing in the last few years as these things are peaking my curiousity, of the sevearal women who find themselves in compromised positions at our place of work and have to be reprimanded or fired (affair with boss, affair with client or vendor, sex in the workplace, et etc etc) are the ones who from their mouths are quick to spin some feminist hard line, but at their core are simply being dishonest with themselves and are unprepared when temptation or improper opportunities arise. I cannot help but wonder if this is more than coincidence!

Instead the strong and balanced women candidates will rarely need to say how strong they are in compare to men, for their resumes or experience or previous accomplishments and how they carry themselves during the interview will speak much louder on these things, and this does carry the weight.

So this is just some of my observations on these tings.


----------



## Zammo

> The finesse for all good men, is to never assume all women are this way or that way concerning some modern way of thinking, but to let the individual woman speak for herself.


This is the "we are all special snowflakes" world view and is generally not successful because people act in shockingly predictable ways based on common backgrounds and consistent input.

It's also called the "Not All Women Are Like That" (NAWALT) concept in the Internet manosphere and the common wisdom of men who truly understand women is that NAWALT really doesn't apply. Women (and men, of course) are indeed quite predictable and the details of this predictability must be shared widely.

Of course, political correctness reinforces the special snowflake world view and NAWALT and to reject these is to incur the wrath of the politically correct. Not that I care.


----------



## BigBadWolf

I agree completely with the no snowflake view.

That was not my point. 

I was saying to the good men reading this, not to assume every woman they run across in life is believing the feminist ideas hook line and sinker. 

There are women in this beautiful world who are looking for a good man, and will appreciate being in a relationship with such a man. On this I am very much an optimist as I see and live this belief in my own life.

I do not look at women as all demon or all angel, to either be avoided or worshipped at all, but simply that a woman is a woman. 

Again on this we agree, as humans definitely patterns and habits are predictable, men behave like men, women behave like women and because of this the good man can chart his own course based on what he desires for his happiness! 

Regarding this NAWALT ideas, I have not heard of this before but I will spend some time looking at what this is about.



Zammo said:


> This is the "we are all special snowflakes" world view and is generally not successful because people act in shockingly predictable ways based on common backgrounds and consistent input.
> 
> It's also called the "Not All Women Are Like That" (NAWALT) concept in the Internet manosphere and the common wisdom of men who truly understand women is that NAWALT really doesn't apply. Women (and men, of course) are indeed quite predictable and the details of this predictability must be shared widely.
> 
> Of course, political correctness reinforces the special snowflake world view and NAWALT and to reject these is to incur the wrath of the politically correct. Not that I care.


----------



## MEM2020

Perhaps it is hard to capture the spirit of our relationship but I will take a stab at it. 

If either of us says "this is really important to me...." the other pays careful attention and then says "I am on the case". If we both feel that way and we disagree then we both make a good faith effort to find a compromise that is fair. 

We almost never have to actually say "this is really important to me..." because we already know. 

That said her list of important stuff is long. Mine is short. It feels fair to me because she handles my "short list" enthusiastically - and ummm... skillfully. And THAT makes it all work like magic.



Affaircare said:


> You have such a way with words! LOL :rofl:
> 
> I don't think that my husband (Tanelornpete) has a superior intellect or is a better decision maker. I believe we have complementary intellects and we are both utterly capable of making decisions. We also both are comfortable speaking to each other honestly and being open with each other about our thoughts and feelings--that safety/protection concept is a big one. BUT at the end of the day, someone has to be the one designated to make the decision.
> 
> I can't speak for every couple but the way we do it is that he seeks out my input and then either he makes the decision outright or he decides "You choose on this one as either way seems reasonable to me." Thus if I have a preference we can choose to go with that preference. To my mind, the way and style that BBW and MEM use is a little more dominant than the way we do it, but it's darn close and the concept is right. Our personal execution is more like this: "You're the expert at this one dear so you take the lead on that project" or "We agree to tackle this or that together." It always comes back to one thing though...HE makes that determination just because someone has to be picked.
> 
> I think those who protest the man taking the lead usually have at some point experienced a man who is abusive in his leadership, and this creates a wife who is unruly and unwilling to yield to that kind of treatment. When a man is firm but also openly communicates, "I will listen; I will take your opinion into account," it makes a world of difference and puts the wife in a position of not being afraid to "let go of the reins" and let him be the leader he is.


----------



## chance2010

After battling in my own marriage I read this thread with interest. It reads so true with solving my own problems and not having my needs (in the bedroom) met. I think we all need some coaching on structuring new balanced relationships that reflect the differences between men and women. As the original post points out we didn't have those strong role models, my father was as strong as an ox but turned to alcohol to resolve his disappointments in his marriage. I'm not going to deal with them the same way - I also need to demonstrate to my son how to be strong and loving at the same time.

I started a blog on the sex bit over here: 
Hornyhusband's Blog

I really want to expand it as a commentary for men on how to have a healthy, balanced relationship.


----------



## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> Domination in a social or political sense, I am in agreement with mostly what is being expressed, of course I am not advocating slavery or some form of it even on an emotional or psychological level, that is ridiculous.
> 
> Do not think for a minute I am surpressing or controling the personality or behavior of my wife nor would that be very likely for any man to do. ANyone who knows or would see my wife would assume in every sense she is sharp and intelligent and opinionated and not taking crap from anyone, very dominant herself and that is a fact.
> 
> But in the sexual sense, for the sexual structure to be at peak and prime, in my experience absolutely, there is one leader and one dominant partner, and sexually speaking that is the responsibility of the man, and in any relationship where sex is important then the man will strive to dominate, and the woman will strive to be dominated, even to the point where the woman, yes, will push her man to be this in some way or form.
> 
> If this is offensive to anyone then that is up to them to reconcile whether there experiences match up to their offense.
> 
> Be sure that at any time if my wife expressed she would rather be treated gender neutral and stop being turned on sexually day by day for so many years, of course I would respect such a decision but of course there would be consequences to the relationship for sure. This should not even need to be typed out but regardless here it is for anyone who really needs to see it.
> 
> In all my experiences with women, I have never seen any woman as turned on as she is when she is pursued in the dominant fashion, period. No amount of negotiation or talk or giving flowers or doing housework or any of these other 50/50 ideas have even come close. And I am saying not even in the same ballpark or even worth speaking of.
> 
> So much to say consistently seeing a woman on the verge of an orgasm often without much more than being touched, or begging her man to take her or begging her man to rip off her clothes or begging her man to allow her to do this or that to him, can you say this happens from a man doing housework? I dare anyone to compare.
> 
> It is clear there are many opinions shared that, while everyone has the right to their opinion, not every opinion is even worthwhile to be considered or replied to.
> 
> Any opinion to attempt to shame a man to "grow up" for expressing his sexual appetites or experiences will always fall under this category.
> 
> Non the less, this thread is borderline on some silly gender war, that is not beneficial to anyone and I would encourage everyone to share honestly and openly their own opinions backed with their experience, and to avoid needless accusations, as they will help no one.


I see you only as you define and design yourself in title and through word here on these forums: The Big Bad Wolf. For every big bad wolf there must be a better woodsman or woodswoman who counters and overcomes the self interests of the wolf. It has nothing to do with gender and all to do with humanity. 

Although it's refreshing to know that you believe your woman is honest with you, as judgmental as I am and as sure that you are equally so, I will judge that your wife gives up more than you will ever know in order to keep you happy for whatever reason she deems fit in the bedroom. 

Honesty to me is paramount and this goes beyond the sake of the relationship. Fairy tales are written by those who need to believe them and history written by those who get the chance to broadcast it with honesty being the only thing real and fitting of a soul connection.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Article in the news today:

http://www.thestar.com/article/867815--it-s-time-for-men-to-man-up-and-take-charge


It’s time for men to man up and take charge 

by Robert Cribb
Staff Reporter

I blame Air Supply. 

And the entire male cast of Friends. 

As a gender, the modern man has been socialized into bumbling submission. 

Doting, indecisive and generally wimpy, too many of us have lost the ancient protocols of manhood. 

Consider the basic proposition posed by Toronto writer Elliott Katz in his self-help guide for the whipped male called Being the Strong Man A Woman Wants: Our fathers, bewildered by the feminist revolution, have failed to hand down the kind of testosterone-laced wisdom that defined our gender throughout history. 

That breaking of the chain has blurred the male social code beyond recognition.

What remains is a kind of wishy-washy modern malehood that has left men puzzled and women frustrated, says Katz.

“We mean well. But boys have grown up without strong role models. We think we’re being nice. But we’re shirking our responsibility.”

Himself included, says Katz, a divorced father of two whose book sprang from a kind of post mortem on his own marital identity. 

“I tried to please. I thought, ‘If I could do what she wants, she would be happy.’”

So, he did. 

He worked hard, provided for his family and tried to be accommodating. 

“She seemed to know what she wanted and I figured I’ll do what she wants.” 

And there’s the rub, he says. 

Too many of us have handed over decision making to our wives and girlfriends on everything from the evening meal plans to RRSP contribution levels. 

We relentlessly seek approval, defer, scurry to please and compromise endlessly to gain favour or peace.

In short, we are no longer leaders. 

Bad call, says Katz. 

“Leaving decisions to her is very frustrating for women. We all believe in gender equality. But you’re still the man and you have to take charge.”

Clear signs of the masculinity deficit emerged in the “sensitive new age guy” (SNAG) ’80s and ’90s and advanced to a contemporary state of near androgyny. 

Our balls now come pre-busted.

Turn on any number of popular culture sitcoms – The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Yes, Dear, Two and a Half Men — and witness the spineless man on comedic display. 

The laughs are on us.

For more biting social criticism, consider the Kevin Spacey character in the film American Beauty. 

“Lester, could you make me a little later please because I’m not quite late enough,” his wife scolds condescendingly as he spills the contents of his briefcase on the way out the door one morning. 

She’s the one driving the car. 

“Both my wife and daughter think I’m this gigantic loser, and they’re right,” he narrates. “I have lost something. I’m not exactly sure what it is.” 

Last week’s edition of Newsweek magazine featured a lengthy lament of modern masculinity summarized by this line: “To survive in a hostile world, guys need to embrace girly jobs and dirty diapers.”

New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd’s recent book title asks the excruciatingly offensive question, Are Men Necessary? 

And a recent essay in The Atlantic — provocatively titled “The End of Men” — reports that after being the dominant sex since the dawn of time, “that is changing — and with shocking speed.”

This role reversal – including the female eclipse of men in universities and the professional world — is all part of the bruising being sustained by the modern male ego. 

It feeds our growing deference. 

The only path left is personal responsibility, says Katz. 

Breaking the cycle requires a new found manning-up philosophy, finding issues that aren’t being handled in a relationship and handling them, being more decisive and, in the end, reclaiming a connection to primal manhood. 

And, as an aside, it wouldn’t kill you to banish from your music library any whiny men singing saccharine dirges about lost love. That crap is killing you inside.


----------



## greenpearl

BBW,

A very good article.

I am going to gossip, I don't like to gossip, it is not my nature. 

But please see the comparison. 

My husband used to have a friend. This friend is married to a Taiwanese woman.

In our marriage, I let my husband manage the big issues, like buying an apartment or planning a trip, or anything involved with big money. I am independent as a working woman, but at home he is my leader, he is the decision maker, we have being enjoying a happy marriage ever since we got married. I respect him as my man and he loves me as his wife.

This other friend lets his wife make decisions, for example, she asked to have separate bank accounts. The day when we got married my husband said that we have to put our money together, we can't have separate accounts, I did what he wanted. This friend of his listened to his wife. When he was making less money than she did, she would complain. She decided to buy an apartment which they can't afford, he let her do it. She decided to have fancy decoration, he went along. Do you know what kind of life they have now. They are in debt, they have difficulties making bank payments. They prolonged their mortgage from 20 years to 30 years. She has being depressed ever since they got married, he is very frustrated with her too. I wanted to buy a big apartment, my husband said NO, I listened to him. I wanted to have fancy decoration, my husband said NO, I listened to him. I listen to him. He is smart! And he is happy that I let him make decisions.

Maybe some men are not that smart, but when making a decision, a man will think about more areas, a woman just likes to show off. 

I respect my husband, even though he is younger than me. I let him be my head, since I know I make impulsive decisions. 

No matter how smart women think they are , they should let men be their leaders, it is just human nature!! And it is the best way to live.


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## nice777guy

The article mentions Kevin Spacey in American Beauty - one of my favorite movies.

"Both my wife and daughter think I'm this gigantic loser and they're right, I have lost something. I'm not exactly sure what it is but I know I didn't always feel this... sedated. But you know what? It's never too late to get it back."

"Look at me, jerking off in the shower... This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here."

*Movie Spoilers - Alert!*

The first 2 times I watched it, I was focused on the main story of him rebelling against his "gigantic loser" life. Was somewhat inspiring - in a hollywood kind of way.

But at the end, after he is shot and is dying, his mind is filled with the beautiful thoughts about his life with his wife, and about his daughter, and their times together. The last time I watched, I realized that there was probably a better way for him to have tried to "fix" his "gigantic loser" life than through pot smoking, working out, quitting his job, obsessing over his daughter's young friend, etc., etc. And that in the end, his mind found its way back to what really mattered to him.


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## ButterflyKisses

A relationship should be a partnership, about togetherness and compromise, not solely about the man taking the lead and the woman being the follower. There will be times when it will be right for the man to take the lead, and others when the woman should. That should be for the couple to work out. IMO


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## themrs

This thread sparked a very genuine discussion between my husband and myself. I am very glad to have read this post.

I asked my husband how important was it to him to be the one to "call the shots" in the marriage and he said it was very important. I asked him why and he basically said it's a man thing and that men always need to feel as if they are making the decisions - not just in relationships.

We talked about it for a while and I got him to agree that if he wants to be the one calling the shots, then he has to take all of the responsibility if something goes wrong. It costs to be the boss. His reply was that he wishes more women would understand that even though men want to make the decisions, they aren't perfect and there will be mistakes. Men, my husband says, need to feel allowed to make them.

We talked and talked and it was nice. What occured to me during the conversation is that in order for a man to feel in control in a relationship, I as a wife basically have to let him choose my life. He determines basically what kind of life I will live by the decisions he makes. That is a tough pill to swallow for any human as everyone has wants and needs that are unique to them. It's very difficult to decide to give up that control in your own life and I believe that is why so many women opt to divorce. They can't find the balance between surrendering to the marriage and happiness. They come to the conclusion that they can only be happy if they have the freedom to make their own decisions.

I must admit that I often get torn between making my marriage a successful one or my own happiness. The two do not always coexist! At the current time however, I have decided to submit to my husband because I like who he is better when I do. I'm just not sure how I feel about myself because of that decision. I believe only time will tell.


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## AFEH

Marriage is about as perfect as the spouses in it. There are no perfect people, there are no perfect marriages.

Each marriage is as unique as the spouses in it.

There is no “one solution fits all” to any of the problems in a marriage.

Where there’s love there’s hope. Where there’s no love there’s no hope. When hope is gone it’s time to walk away.

Marriage is there to be enjoyed and invested in. And like any investment it needs watching and taken care of.

In long term marriages people change as they grow so the marriage changes. In long term marriages life’s experiences change the people, so the marriage changes. What worked yesterday no longer works today or tomorrow. To be successful in a long term marriage means to be adaptable to change because change will come. That’s guaranteed.

Bob


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## greenpearl

Please remember, our husbands are not perfect human beings. They make mistakes. If they make mistakes, we shouldn't sit there complain and complain. Say if he has lost money from investing, your complaining won't help him feel better, your blaming him won't get the money back. Let go of the past, he does need to know he had made a mistake, learn from the mistake he made, and avoid making the same mistake again. We have to be forgiving, since mistakes will sure happen in our lives!!!


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## Deejo

We bought that ticket. And the ride leads to mediocrity, dissatisfaction and resentment. You are missing the point. Both MEM and BBW say it over and over ad nauseum ...

there is a difference between being a draconian control-freak, and a benevolent leader. Their wives do lead, in areas the couple has already delineated; areas that they as men defer, or just don't care about. That's what works. They are advocating exactly what you are saying - they have the partnership you outline. But somehow, and I'm not pointing the finger at you, there is always someone, who thinks they are some kind of Svengali. 

Women _think_ they want a sensitive, emotional, compassionate, romantic man that can openly express his feelings, isn't afraid to cry, wants to spend all of their time together and lives to please them.

Give them that package and they will without question eventually be bored to tears. They will not stay _attracted_ to that man. They will instead be drawn to someone a little more 'exciting' and 'challenging'. There is no excitement or challenge in having a 'yes' man for a partner.

The kicker is even as WE (men collectively) try to step out of the doormat role - and become more practical in our partnering, more assertive, better leaders - women will test us and lament that we are not behaving as doormats. It is a fundamental tenet of the rules of engagement.



ButterflyKisses said:


> A relationship should be a partnership, about togetherness and compromise, not solely about the man taking the lead and the woman being the follower. There will be times when it will be right for the man to take the lead, and others when the woman should. That should be for the couple to work out. IMO


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## themrs

greenpearl said:


> Please remember, our husbands are not perfect human beings. They make mistakes. If they make mistakes, we shouldn't sit there complain and complain. Say if he has lost money from investing, your complaining won't help him feel better, your blaming him won't get the money back. Let go of the past, he does need to know he had made a mistake, learn from the mistake he made, and avoid making the same mistake again. We have to be forgiving, since mistakes will sure happen in our lives!!!


Yeah well, wives aren't perfect either. Sometimes it's hard to keep your mouth shut once someone has made mistake after mistake, especially because the mistakes effect your life (and the lives of the children) just as much! 

I agree that "I told you so" is never really productive, but sometimes people need to vent about how the situation has been f*ed up by this mistake. I mean, it's my life too.


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## greenpearl

MEM, BBW love their wives. They respect their wives. I feel my husband is the same as them, my husband agrees with MEM and BBW, my husband likes them. He doesn't come here and speak out his opinion. As his wife, I know how much love I get from him. The way he treats me is just loving and considerate, I don't ask more from him. He satisfies all my needs. Has anyone here seeing me complaining?


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## greenpearl

themrs said:


> Yeah well, wives aren't perfect either. Sometimes it's hard to keep your mouth shut once someone has made mistake after mistake, especially because the mistakes effect your life (and the lives of the children) just as much!
> 
> I agree that "I told you so" is never really productive, but sometimes people need to vent about how the situation has been f*ed up by this mistake. I mean, it's my life too.


My husband said never make the same mistake again. If he makes the same mistake, I'll be fed up, too. You are right, it is my life, too. He knows that it isn't just his life, so he has to be more careful!!!


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## Scannerguard

TheMrs:

Good post and thank you for your share.

In my ending marriage, I was not allowed to make mistakes. When I made a mistake, my stb-x had a definite way of making me feel demeaned and like a loser.

I am still recovering from that natural sense of self-esteem a woman can so easily rob from a man, if she exercises that power.

I'll tell you - bedding another woman really helped. It may be shallow (I am sure it is) but there you have it; it helped me break the shackles of the "nice guy syndrome" and feel desirable, appreciated, respected, loved. But then of course, that wore off. . ."Good Kirk" is coming back and I am slowing yearning for something more than just hypersexuality, of course.

*stealing a movie* line, speaking of movie lines. . .The Last Samurai (total guy movie). . ."perhaps I will find some measure of peace that we are all looking for (last line in the movie)."

Anyway (snapping out of it). . .one thing I think your husband should trade for your "surrender" to him is for him to let you know, in no uncertain terms, how valuable your council is and not underplay a wife's importance.

You think the First Lady has had no impact on our Presidents? Think again! Their advice and council has literally changed the direction of our country and shaped it. I know it's a difficult pill to swallow for feminists because it's "behind the scenes" and First Lady's hold no "real elected power" and there is certainly no reason a woman cannot be Commandress In Cheif (after Hillary's primary, I actually could have seen her in that role) but a First Lady's role is very important.

I would say Michelle Obama holds much more power, more genuine power, than Hillary Clinton at this time, who serves as Secretary of the State. She is changing society with her actions, just as Hillary did when she was First Lady.

A good leader, a good husband, will follow his council's advice 95% of the time. There are certain times when he will say, "No" but he should seek your council often and heed it in no uncertain terms.

Greenpearl,

Thanks for sharing your story also of your friend in debt. My stb-x always lusted for a greater lifestyle like your friend.

She is now free (or soon here) to pursue the lifestyle she has felt entitled to and I wish her well. The better she does, the better it is for my kids, I am sure and I support her quest.


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## greenpearl

My own experience! In 2008, everybody knows the financial crisis. My husband lost a lot of money from investing in the stock market, $30,000. We had to work hard for a year to get that money. I didn't like it. There was my hard earned money too. I wanted to explode. But my husband said, he already felt bad, me being furious would make him feel worse. What did I do? I started comforting him. He didn't want to lose money! Who doesn't make mistakes? I told him that we are still young, we can make that money back. Would it help our situation if I was yelling and screaming. Would my husband like me if I kept on blaming him? I didn't. I just told him not to make the same mistake again. Does he listen to me? YES! And he appreciates me for being understanding!

Is our situation bad now? NO! we work hard, we make money, we save money, we live a happy life, We love each other!!!


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## greenpearl

Greenpearl,

Thanks for sharing your story also of your friend in debt. My stb-x always lusted for a greater lifestyle like your friend.

She is now free (or soon here) to pursue the lifestyle she has felt entitled to and I wish her well. The better she does, the better it is for my kids, I am sure and I support her quest.[/QUOTE]

A person will never be happy if she is always pursuing material things. There is never enough! Only by being content with what you have now will make a person happy and peaceful!

Please find a woman who doesn't mind living a simple life, your life will be much easier!!! My husband's advice for men who are looking for wives. That's what he did!!!


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## Scannerguard

Well, Greenpearl,

Well, she had me, had me 100% and was not happy with me. . .so there you have it. What can you do?

I think you are right of course. I do think there is a balance, between spirtual and material life.

I'd be totally, 100% happy living in a trailer near the beach crammed in with a family and surfing, fishing, crabbing, kayaking, jogging, swimming, doing "beachey" things.

But. . .I have to say, I know that "vision" isn't normal either and can be frustrating for the average American educated woman.

I think American Society needs to create a balance between the "McMansion Lifestyle" and one that's "Hippie", although I do want the "Hippie" van. 

Gotta have the Hippie Van someday , rust and all, with surfboards perched atop.


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## Scannerguard

And dont deny me my midlife crisis - a surfboard.


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## themrs

Scanner - I absolutely agree that a good husband listens to his wife and takes her opinion into consideration. I agree that a wife is a great influence on a man. 

I don't think that is where most women have the problem letting their husband lead. I'll liken it to driving. Whomever is in the driver's seat determines the course. Period. The person in the passenger seat has no control. They have to go where the driver goes. Now the passenger can say where they want to go and the driver could listen, but other than that you have no control unless you try and take the wheel! 

That's the problem. As a woman, I drove myself through life until I got married. Then after I got married, I was expected to move over to the passenger seat. It's not easy. It's the ultimate demonstration of trust. I have to tell my husband where I want to go and trust that he will take me there. And if he gets lost along the way (makes a mistake), I have to sit quietly while he gets back on track - even if I think I know the way! It's very hard to do sometimes and a lot of women (it seems your ex being one of them) have decided to just get out of the car.

Wives who do not let their husbands make the decisions in the house do not trust them and that is the bottom line.


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## BigBadWolf

themrs said:


> We talked about it for a while and I got him to agree that if he wants to be the one calling the shots, then he has to take all of the responsibility if something goes wrong. It costs to be the boss.



This is perfectly stated and should even be a thread unto itself!

Time and time in my typing, for all the attention that "dominance" and "spanking" words get, I wish more attention was on how often I mention ownership and responsibility.

Ownership and responsibility, this is the male dominance I speak of, and they are inseperable and to try to have one without the other, will only wither and kill both!

For every barb and private message I get from the feminist viewpoint to try to shame me about my dominance speak, understand I am also getting a barb and private message from a man trying to shame me for putting so much responsiblity on the man.

To both of these scenarios, I say tough, that's life, and that's sexual attraction works. Period.

All good men reading this, get this point. Anything worth having is worth working for. This is nothing new and in marriage and sexual relations it is no different.

In sexual attraction, the man strives to dominate, the woman strives to be dominated.

For the good man that wants to experience sexual attraction and emotional connection and radical intimacy from a woman, this is going to require effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and boldness and dominance and RESPONSIBILITY to pursue the things he is wanting. 

This is the good man striving to dominate.

Likewise for the woman, is she is wanting to feel the sexual and emotional connection and radical intimacy for a man to the point of being inside burning on fire for such a man and herself feeling feminine and feeling contentment and not feeling insecure or needing to be some perfectionist, she is going to also require from herself effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and trust and responsibility to pursue the things she is wanting. 

This is her striving to be dominated. 

Yes, the same as what we call submission, but in behavior it is identical to the man, only to the point where the man has proving worth of trust will she trust him. 

Submission is simply trust that the woman herself is of the mettle that she has attracted and won the good man himself with the mettle to be responsible and capable to meet the needs of the relationship.

And just for the sake of argument, these behaviors are practically identical from the good man and woman, only the reactions in each the man and woman are different regarding dominance and submission.

Where at the point where the good man and woman that are relatively matched and through courtship and fitness testing and sexual flirting begin a relatinship that leads to simply this, they demand respect from each other. 

And the woman has continually put up her tests to weed out just any weak man, and her good man has passed these tests and this good man simply refuses to back down and the woman is from her nature and happiness and choice submitting, inside both of them is intense sexual attraction and contentment.

For the good man, the strong and beautiful and sexual woman that submits to him feeds inside him the sense of his sexual prowess, and his worth, and this is sexually satisfying and the good man will defend to the death the woman that makes inside of him feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to dominate.

And inside the woman is similar, that she is strong and beautiful and sexual so much as she is attracting and winning the attention and devotion of the best of the best of good men, and inside her she is wanting to defend to the death the good man that makes inside of her feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to be dominated.

So in this way, when a woman does not submit and her man submits, both of them are feeling dissappointment and they WILL each of them find other means to happiness than from each other.

And the woman that submits and her man does not submit, both of them are feeling sexual and content, and each of them will continue to seek and find happiness from each other.

So in this way, the woman is in her strength, the man is his his strength, and together they strive together growing closer and even pushing each other to new ways to strive and each together to be rewarding each other for the striving. This is sexual nature!


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## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> This is perfectly stated and should even be a thread unto itself!
> 
> Time and time in my typing, for all the attention that "dominance" and "spanking" words get, I wish more attention was on how often I mention ownership and responsibility.
> 
> Ownership and responsibility, this is the male dominance I speak of, and they are inseperable and to try to have one without the other, will only wither and kill both!
> 
> For every barb and private message I get from the feminist viewpoint to try to shame me about my dominance speak, understand I am also getting a barb and private message from a man trying to shame me for putting so much responsiblity on the man.
> 
> To both of these scenarios, I say tough, that's life, and that's sexual attraction works. Period.
> 
> All good men reading this, get this point. Anything worth having is worth working for. This is nothing new and in marriage and sexual relations it is no different.
> 
> In sexual attraction, the man strives to dominate, the woman strives to be dominated.
> 
> For the good man that wants to experience sexual attraction and emotional connection and radical intimacy from a woman, this is going to require effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and boldness and dominance and RESPONSIBILITY to pursue the things he is wanting.
> 
> This is the good man striving to dominate.
> 
> Likewise for the woman, is she is wanting to feel the sexual and emotional connection and radical intimacy for a man to the point of being inside burning on fire for such a man and herself feeling feminine and feeling contentment and not feeling insecure or needing to be some perfectionist, she is going to also require from herself effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and trust and responsibility to pursue the things she is wanting.
> 
> This is her striving to be dominated.
> 
> Yes, the same as what we call submission, but in behavior it is identical to the man, only to the point where the man has proving worth of trust will she trust him.
> 
> Submission is simply trust that the woman herself is of the mettle that she has attracted and won the good man himself with the mettle to be responsible and capable to meet the needs of the relationship.
> 
> And just for the sake of argument, these behaviors are practically identical from the good man and woman, only the reactions in each the man and woman are different regarding dominance and submission.
> 
> Where at the point where the good man and woman that are relatively matched and through courtship and fitness testing and sexual flirting begin a relatinship that leads to simply this, they demand respect from each other.
> 
> And the woman has continually put up her tests to weed out just any weak man, and her good man has passed these tests and this good man simply refuses to back down and the woman is from her nature and happiness and choice submitting, inside both of them is intense sexual attraction and contentment.
> 
> For the good man, the strong and beautiful and sexual woman that submits to him feeds inside him the sense of his sexual prowess, and his worth, and this is sexually satisfying and the good man will defend to the death the woman that makes inside of him feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to dominate.
> 
> And inside the woman is similar, that she is strong and beautiful and sexual so much as she is attracting and winning the attention and devotion of the best of the best of good men, and inside her she is wanting to defend to the death the good man that makes inside of her feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to be dominated.
> 
> So in this way, when a woman does not submit and her man submits, both of them are feeling dissappointment and they WILL each of them find other means to happiness than from each other.
> 
> And the woman that submits and her man does not submit, both of them are feeling sexual and content, and each of them will continue to seek and find happiness from each other.
> 
> So in this way, the woman is in her strength, the man is his his strength, and together they strive together growing closer and even pushing each other to new ways to strive and each together to be rewarding each other for the striving. This is sexual nature!


                
How many people there understand this feeling????

I understand! 

I am submissive to my husband, I love him. I make him feel great. He loves me back in return, he tries hard to please me, he gives me his world. It is all going in a happy circle! 

happy happy happy

If he makes a mistake, this is just life! Life is full of mistakes! Who doesn't make mistakes! But a wan who wants to make his wife smile will try very hard not to make mistakes!!!!!!!!


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## Therealbrighteyes

I was having a conversation with a male co-worker today who was moaning about his wife to many of us female co-workers. She is too "independent" etc. etc. He in essence looked wistfully and harkened back to the "good old days" when women stayed at home raised the children, marriages were perfect and a man was a man. I pointed out that in the "good old days" women stayed at home because they had no other option. A man came home from work to dinner, ate his dinner and then sat on the sofa for the rest of the evening while the wife cleaned up, bathed the kids and took care of them. The husband would get up to give them an obligatory kiss before bedtime. In the "good old days" domestic violence largely went unreported, men called their secretaries "sexretaries" and groped them often without any legal ramifications, a wife got a grocery allowance from her husband, men called being unfaithful a "dalliance" and spousal rape wasn't even a crime. Women virtually had no options so they just dealt with life and their marriage as best they could.
As for modern men, who is preventing you from being men? It isn't women. In this day and age a woman wants a man to be her equal. How does being equal to women make you less of a man? Most women work and contribute half the income, I know I do and even if I didn't, how am I less than a man? Marriages are partnerships. Two halves become a whole. Remember that? That implies that each going in to a marriage is 50%. 
What a woman wants is for her man to buck up and share in equal responsibility of the marriage and family. How does that make you less of a man for doing so? It seems like women progressed, but men did not. 
As for the posts that implied that the pussification of men is largely responsible by the mothers out there, I have this to say. What exactly would you like us mothers to teach our sons? Should I raise my sons to believe that their sense of self should be wrapped up in what job title they hold? Or should I teach them that money is the key to everything? Our should I teach them that by being dominant over women is the key to their success? Or better yet, should I teach them that it is okay to treat women as submissive?
How about I teach them that their value and worth in life is based on what difference they made on this planet for having been here. Anybody can make money. Anybody can have a career. So what? It takes a special person to make a meaningful difference in the world. I don't think that message sets them up for being emasculated. It sets them up to be leaders. 
BTW.... I have noticed a rise in misogynistic posts on this forum.


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## MEM2020

LOL. The saddest thing about the posts by the guys in busted marriages is the pervasive victimology they indulge in. 

All this drivel about how the next generation of sons will figure out what biatches women are and won't marry them. 

This is simple stuff - if you really are a good partner and your W treats you poorly end the marriage. You can't possibly talk about how you are staying for the kids when you are role modeling a male doormat. How does that help ANYONE?

As for women. Hell yes they challenge us. Thank your lucky stars for that. It was what helps you stretch. If being challenged causes you to shrink in fear that is not on her - that is all on you. 

My W challenges me regularly. Sometimes it is purely on the basis of logic and reason. Sometimes it is totally an alpha style dominance move. In the former case she gets logic and reason back. If she is right I tell her, apologize and promise to do better. If it is a draw she gets an acknowledgement I see both sides. If her reasoning is flawed I point that out, then point it out again until she concedes the point. In the case of an alpha style approach where it has NOTHING to do with who is right and who is wrong and is purely a contest of wills a pure power struggle, she gets a pure alpha style response because THAT IS WHAT SHE WANTED. 

This is exactly the same style I use at work with peers and bosses. From peers I get respect - bosses give me - well whatever they give employees they want to keep happy. 

As for Brennan's general comments I agree with two exceptions one is the bedroom and the other the boardroom. Bedroom first: You take the respect thing literally in bed it turns into "may I touch your breast now?" A real woman does NOT want any part of that. And frankly a woman who brought some type of feminist political agenda into my bed would not last one night. While my W and I are equals - we are not equal. We are not the same. She has needs that I don't have. And I have needs that she doesn't have. And that makes life somewhat difficult but infinitely interesting. 

As for the comment "any man can make money" I take exception to that. It is not far from saying "any woman can pop out kids". Technically true but it seems like gender bashing. Every successful guy I know gives to charities. Some give a LOT. ALL of them have gotten successful by doing something that consumers see value in. 

We need to teach our boys to USE their testosterone, not suppress it. 




Brennan said:


> I was having a conversation with a male co-worker today who was moaning about his wife to many of us female co-workers. She is too "independent" etc. etc. He in essence looked wistfully and harkened back to the "good old days" when women stayed at home raised the children, marriages were perfect and a man was a man. I pointed out that in the "good old days" women stayed at home because they had no other option. A man came home from work to dinner, ate his dinner and then sat on the sofa for the rest of the evening while the wife cleaned up, bathed the kids and took care of them. The husband would get up to give them an obligatory kiss before bedtime. In the "good old days" domestic violence largely went unreported, men called their secretaries "sexretaries" and groped them often without any legal ramifications, a wife got a grocery allowance from her husband, men called being unfaithful a "dalliance" and spousal rape wasn't even a crime. Women virtually had no options so they just dealt with life and their marriage as best they could.
> As for modern men, who is preventing you from being men? It isn't women. In this day and age a woman wants a man to be her equal. How does being equal to women make you less of a man? Most women work and contribute half the income, I know I do and even if I didn't, how am I less than a man? Marriages are partnerships. Two halves become a whole. Remember that? That implies that each going in to a marriage is 50%.
> What a woman wants is for her man to buck up and share in equal responsibility of the marriage and family. How does that make you less of a man for doing so? It seems like women progressed, but men did not.
> As for the posts that implied that the pussification of men is largely responsible by the mothers out there, I have this to say. What exactly would you like us mothers to teach our sons? Should I raise my sons to believe that their sense of self should be wrapped up in what job title they hold? Or should I teach them that money is the key to everything? Our should I teach them that by being dominant over women is the key to their success? Or better yet, should I teach them that it is okay to treat women as submissive?
> How about I teach them that their value and worth in life is based on what difference they made on this planet for having been here. Anybody can make money. Anybody can have a career. So what? It takes a special person to make a meaningful difference in the world. I don't think that message sets them up for being emasculated. It sets them up to be leaders.
> BTW.... I have noticed a rise in misogynistic posts on this forum.


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## Therealbrighteyes

MEM,
I was not equating my feminist beliefs in any way to the bedroom. I was talking about work, raising children and marriage in general working as as a true partnership, which most men don't do.
In the bedroom, my husband dominates and I love it. 
Yes, alot of women can "pop out kids" but that doesn't make her a mother. What makes her a mother is raising those children to be future leaders of the world, be it garbage collectors or doctors. A leader isn't defined by his or her job, they just "are" and they inspire others.


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## Trenton

BigBadWolf said:


> This is perfectly stated and should even be a thread unto itself!
> 
> Time and time in my typing, for all the attention that "dominance" and "spanking" words get, I wish more attention was on how often I mention ownership and responsibility.
> 
> Ownership and responsibility, this is the male dominance I speak of, and they are inseperable and to try to have one without the other, will only wither and kill both!
> 
> For every barb and private message I get from the feminist viewpoint to try to shame me about my dominance speak, understand I am also getting a barb and private message from a man trying to shame me for putting so much responsiblity on the man.
> 
> To both of these scenarios, I say tough, that's life, and that's sexual attraction works. Period.
> 
> All good men reading this, get this point. Anything worth having is worth working for. This is nothing new and in marriage and sexual relations it is no different.
> 
> In sexual attraction, the man strives to dominate, the woman strives to be dominated.
> 
> For the good man that wants to experience sexual attraction and emotional connection and radical intimacy from a woman, this is going to require effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and boldness and dominance and RESPONSIBILITY to pursue the things he is wanting.
> 
> This is the good man striving to dominate.
> 
> Likewise for the woman, is she is wanting to feel the sexual and emotional connection and radical intimacy for a man to the point of being inside burning on fire for such a man and herself feeling feminine and feeling contentment and not feeling insecure or needing to be some perfectionist, she is going to also require from herself effort and deliberate behavior. In courage and trust and responsibility to pursue the things she is wanting.
> 
> This is her striving to be dominated.
> 
> Yes, the same as what we call submission, but in behavior it is identical to the man, only to the point where the man has proving worth of trust will she trust him.
> 
> Submission is simply trust that the woman herself is of the mettle that she has attracted and won the good man himself with the mettle to be responsible and capable to meet the needs of the relationship.
> 
> And just for the sake of argument, these behaviors are practically identical from the good man and woman, only the reactions in each the man and woman are different regarding dominance and submission.
> 
> Where at the point where the good man and woman that are relatively matched and through courtship and fitness testing and sexual flirting begin a relatinship that leads to simply this, they demand respect from each other.
> 
> And the woman has continually put up her tests to weed out just any weak man, and her good man has passed these tests and this good man simply refuses to back down and the woman is from her nature and happiness and choice submitting, inside both of them is intense sexual attraction and contentment.
> 
> For the good man, the strong and beautiful and sexual woman that submits to him feeds inside him the sense of his sexual prowess, and his worth, and this is sexually satisfying and the good man will defend to the death the woman that makes inside of him feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to dominate.
> 
> And inside the woman is similar, that she is strong and beautiful and sexual so much as she is attracting and winning the attention and devotion of the best of the best of good men, and inside her she is wanting to defend to the death the good man that makes inside of her feel in this way, primal and blissful and content. This is striving to be dominated.
> 
> So in this way, when a woman does not submit and her man submits, both of them are feeling dissappointment and they WILL each of them find other means to happiness than from each other.
> 
> And the woman that submits and her man does not submit, both of them are feeling sexual and content, and each of them will continue to seek and find happiness from each other.
> 
> So in this way, the woman is in her strength, the man is his his strength, and together they strive together growing closer and even pushing each other to new ways to strive and each together to be rewarding each other for the striving. This is sexual nature!


To be honest, the spanking and dominance doesn't bother me half as much as your arrogance, assumptive repetitive dribble and ignorance in regards to the depth and variance of human nature.


----------



## Trenton

> As for the comment "any man can make money" I take exception to that. It is not far from saying "any woman can pop out kids". Technically true but it seems like gender bashing. Every successful guy I know gives to charities. Some give a LOT. ALL of them have gotten successful by doing something that consumers see value in.


When a man makes more than a woman for the same work with the same level of experience and education there is a problem and it is a problem for everyone.

Technically it's not true that any woman can pop out kids. There are many women who cannot. Technically it is absolutely false.

Every successful guy you know gives to charity? Big whoop (and do you actually see the receipt?). What is their motive? Do they all regularly volunteer for these charities or do they donate for the tax right off coupled with a toss out to the less fortunate to further bolster their ego by reiterating what successful men they must be? I work for a charity and volunteer regularly at others so I can attest to the fact that people are not giving nearly enough...not enough time, attention or money.


----------



## greenpearl

I think I saw a post somewhere, I can't find it now, sorry. 

But her post made me think. 

Women have changed and become independent, because we don't want to be bullied by men anymore. But we never asked men to become puxxx whipped. So instead of blaming us women for our independent thinking, how about men thinking of their roles as men? We want to respect a powerful man, actually it is in women's nature to marry a man who is more powerful than her. Women don't seek men who are weaker than them to get married, that's why a lot of highly educated or successful career women can't find men to get married, because there are few choices for them. And men who are at their level tend to look for women who are below them to get married. 

So, my advice for men, just be MEN, don't let your woman step on you, don't let your woman make decisions for you, don't let them run your life, but please respect her and love her. I think a woman want love and protection from her man. 

Just my own opinion, please don't take it personally.


----------



## greenpearl

I prefer working to staying at home. 

I don't have kids to look after. If I don't have a job, I'll be restless and bored. People should keep busy, if they are busy, they don't have time to sit down and feel sorry for themselves!

I think two incomes provide a better security. If my husband loses his job, at least we still have another income to help us live a normal life. vice versa. I used to feel very insecure when my EX told me he wanted to quit his job or he didn't like his job( I was a house wife for five years.). I don't have this insecure feeling any more. The fact that I am working helps me feel secure about our life, no mention a better life style!


----------



## MEM2020

Brennan,
I agree with that - and while sometimes guilty of under-performing at home in the past, I don't do that so much anymore. My W and I had this exchange last weekend. 

Her: I am really sorry
Me: (while folding laundry) - about what?
Her: You made a gourmet breakfast this morning, and are on your 6th load of laundry and I have had the day off
Me: I wanted to make you a nice breakfast - and I wanted to do the laundry - smiling - I mean as opposed to walking around naked this coming week due to a lack of clean clothes
Her: You are doing way more around the house
Me: You are working 60 and doing the school charity thing another 6 hours a week. I am working a more normal work schedule. 
Her: You are making way more than me - and now you are folding the laundry
Me: It is not about money - its about effort - your workload is higher now - this is just evening things up a bit. Go play - halftime just ended (I was watching football while folding)





Brennan said:


> MEM,
> I was not equating my feminist beliefs in any way to the bedroom. I was talking about work, raising children and marriage in general working as as a true partnership, which most men don't do.
> In the bedroom, my husband dominates and I love it.
> Yes, alot of women can "pop out kids" but that doesn't make her a mother. What makes her a mother is raising those children to be future leaders of the world, be it garbage collectors or doctors. A leader isn't defined by his or her job, they just "are" and they inspire others.


----------



## MEM2020

T,
Ouch. That stung a little. I must have hit a nerve with my post. I am sure it is frustrating to work at a charity focused on people who really need help and see donations drop while people continue to live very well - at least in the US. 

As for the comment about popping out kids - I apologize to anyone reading my post who has struggled with fertility. I won't use that analogy again. 




Trenton said:


> When a man makes more than a woman for the same work with the same level of experience and education there is a problem and it is a problem for everyone.
> 
> Technically it's not true that any woman can pop out kids. There are many women who cannot. Technically it is absolutely false.
> 
> Every successful guy you know gives to charity? Big whoop (and do you actually see the receipt?). What is their motive? Do they all regularly volunteer for these charities or do they donate for the tax right off coupled with a toss out to the less fortunate to further bolster their ego by reiterating what successful men they must be? I work for a charity and volunteer regularly at others so I can attest to the fact that people are not giving nearly enough...not enough time, attention or money.


----------



## MEM2020

GP,
You have perfectly captured the problem here. The men described in these posts want to retain their relationship power by putting women back in a situation where they have less options. Instead - the men need to step up. 

The modern woman demands more. But treated fairly AND firmly she offers her man much more than her mother/grandmother ever did. The nice guys get the "fairly" but not the "firmly" so they get trampled. 

That said, this is not a gender specific statement. Females who don't behave in a fair and firm manner are just as likely to be ill treated by their partners. 




greenpearl said:


> I think I saw a post somewhere, I can't find it now, sorry.
> 
> But her post made me think.
> 
> Women have changed and become independent, because we don't want to be bullied by men anymore. But we never asked men to become puxxx whipped. So instead of blaming us women for our independent thinking, how about men thinking of their roles as men? We want to respect a powerful man, actually it is in women's nature to marry a man who is more powerful than her. Women don't seek men who are weaker than them to get married, that's why a lot of highly educated or successful career women can't find men to get married, because there are few choices for them. And men who are at their level tend to look for women who are below them to get married.
> 
> So, my advice for men, just be MEN, don't let your woman step on you, don't let your woman make decisions for you, don't let them run your life, but please respect her and love her. I think a woman want love and protection from her man.
> 
> Just my own opinion, please don't take it personally.


----------



## Scannerguard

> Two halves become a whole. Remember that? That implies that each going in to a marriage is 50%.


Rarely is any partnership in business (and marriage is a business) 50/50.


----------



## BigBadWolf

MEM11363 said:


> GP,
> You have perfectly captured the problem here. The men described in these posts want to retain their relationship power by putting women back in a situation where they have less options. Instead - the men need to step up.


Exactly this.  



> The modern woman demands more. But treated fairly AND firmly she offers her man much more than her mother/grandmother ever did. The nice guys get the "fairly" but not the "firmly" so they get trampled.
> 
> That said, this is not a gender specific statement. Females who don't behave in a fair and firm manner are just as likely to be ill treated by their partners.


MEM11363 as usual is putting these things in a well written form. Well said!


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> Brennan,
> I agree with that - and while sometimes guilty of under-performing at home in the past, I don't do that so much anymore. My W and I had this exchange last weekend.
> 
> Her: I am really sorry
> Me: (while folding laundry) - about what?
> Her: You made a gourmet breakfast this morning, and are on your 6th load of laundry and I have had the day off
> Me: I wanted to make you a nice breakfast - and I wanted to do the laundry - smiling - I mean as opposed to walking around naked this coming week due to a lack of clean clothes
> Her: You are doing way more around the house
> Me: You are working 60 and doing the school charity thing another 6 hours a week. I am working a more normal work schedule.
> Her: You are making way more than me - and now you are folding the laundry
> Me: It is not about money - its about effort - your workload is higher now - this is just evening things up a bit. Go play - halftime just ended (I was watching football while folding)




sweet......................................................................


----------



## greenpearl

bigbadwolf said:


> exactly this.
> 
> 
> 
> mem11363 as usual is putting these things in a well written form. Well said!


agree


----------



## greenpearl

men need to have baxxx.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> As for the posts that implied that the pussification of men is largely responsible by the mothers out there, I have this to say. What exactly would you like us mothers to teach our sons?


I didn't imply it. I stated it. For me, personally. My case. I don't begrudge her a thing. I don't blame her for anything. I don't hate who I am.



> Should I raise my sons to believe that their sense of self should be wrapped up in what job title they hold? Or should I teach them that money is the key to everything? Our should I teach them that by being dominant over women is the key to their success? Or better yet, should I teach them that it is okay to treat women as submissive?
> How about I teach them that their value and worth in life is based on what difference they made on this planet for having been here.


Nope. None of that. Simply that dad should be more engaged, more present and _some_ of the lessons that we teach our sons have practical differences than those we teach our daughters. The concepts of honesty, discipline, and accountability ... having a code role-modeled by another male figure is important. 



> BTW.... I have noticed a rise in misogynistic posts on this forum.


You mean like the ones referring to particular male posters as ignorant and arrogant?

Nobody here in this thread is advocating or attempting to propagate the notion that women are not worthy of respect, or should be treated as objects. Quite the opposite.

The point of the discussion isn't in looking for someone to blame. It's an acknowledgment that most of us want to be better.

As for the engaged husband you describe, many of us participating here were just that. We embraced the concept of 50/50, responsibility, parenting, cooking, cleaning ... you name it. 

By most accounting, we would have been considered gold standard husbands - but we were simply too accommodating. We surrendered too much, did too much, chased too much ... all because we believed (mistakenly) that our wives would love us more for it. They didn't. They generally don't. They become disinterested, lose their intimate attraction, and pull away.

That isn't 'victim-hood' it is fact. It is borne out by any number of stories on this forum - mine among them. 

We're trying not to repeat that performance. You don't mind if we do that, do you?


----------



## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> The article mentions Kevin Spacey in American Beauty - one of my favorite movies.
> 
> "Both my wife and daughter think I'm this gigantic loser and they're right, I have lost something. I'm not exactly sure what it is but I know I didn't always feel this... sedated. But you know what? It's never too late to get it back."
> 
> "Look at me, jerking off in the shower... This will be the high point of my day; it's all downhill from here."
> 
> *Movie Spoilers - Alert!*
> 
> The first 2 times I watched it, I was focused on the main story of him rebelling against his "gigantic loser" life. Was somewhat inspiring - in a hollywood kind of way.
> 
> But at the end, after he is shot and is dying, his mind is filled with the beautiful thoughts about his life with his wife, and about his daughter, and their times together. The last time I watched, I realized that there was probably a better way for him to have tried to "fix" his "gigantic loser" life than through pot smoking, working out, quitting his job, obsessing over his daughter's young friend, etc., etc. And that in the end, his mind found its way back to what really mattered to him.


Love this summary and that movie. It's difficult to keep life beautiful with all the dirtiness it inevitably has to offer. We are in a constant struggle to retain ourselves within the requirements of our present roles. In marriage if the balance in either/or partner gets out of sync then destruction follows. Deconstruction is far easier than to build.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Love this summary and that movie. It's difficult to keep life beautiful with all the dirtiness it inevitably has to offer. We are in a constant struggle to retain ourselves within the requirements of our present roles. In marriage if the balance in either/or partner gets out of sync then destruction follows. Deconstruction is far easier than to build.


I actually referenced NG's post and said something similar to stbx last night after dropping off two wonderful, sleeping, kids.

I acknowledged that when I'm on my deathbed, it's not all this sh!t that is going on between us that I am going to remember. It will be all of the wonderful times, between us, and then with our kids that I will remember. I stated if I had it to do over, I would change some things, but that I still would have chosen my life with her - and those children.


----------



## Deejo

greenpearl said:


> men need to have baxxx.


Like hairy backs? 

Oh you mean :bounce::bounce:'s ...

Agreed.


----------



## kaladarr

Women need to remember that men getting their testicles back out of the jar women are keeping them in, won't be all fun and games.
Having said that I really do not like generalizations.
Women are not all selfless nurturing perfect Sleeping Beauties waiting for Prince Charming.
Men are not all angry,violent, beer drinking , wife beaters that watch WWF.( I know nobody here did generalize to that extreme, although , I am sensing the spirit of it here.)
I propose to all men and women that number one you go out and get happy with your own identity rather than relying on someone else or something else to give you what you need to feel secure.
Like a career title or a spouse.
Work hard at being what you want to be. Don't blame "him" or "her" or it.
Blame is pointless. It may make you feel better but it truly achieves nothing.
And personally, I have recognized my need to "man up" and have been working on it for some time.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I actually referenced NG's post and said something similar to stbx last night after dropping off two wonderful, sleeping, kids.
> 
> I acknowledged that when I'm on my deathbed, it's not all this sh!t that is going on between us that I am going to remember. It will be all of the wonderful times, between us, and then with our kids that I will remember. I stated if I had it to do over, I would change some things, but that I still would have chosen my life with her - and those children.


That's great and makes me happy for you, her and your children. The dynamics between any couple are complicated.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread. In essence marry a woman that makes less than you, has less of an education and understands her role in a marriage so you won't feel threatened as a man. That men suddenly have their balls in a vice because women did this, not that men willingly gave them up. 
Don't get me wrong, there were many many comments to the contrarary. It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> That's great and makes me happy for you, her and your children. The dynamics between any couple are complicated.


I agree - even if things are working out you can still love someone. That's a good thing, Deejo.

Who is being misogynistic?

I don't like seeing the word "victim" thrown around here. I've learned a lot - both from this board and my real life - but I don't feel like a victim at all.

I often find myself thinking that the people who have good marriages - maybe they just have good marriages at this particular moment. Really does seem like the bottom can fall out on anyone at anytime. For 14.5 years I could have considered myself an expert too.

A lot of the "Nice guy" talk sounds a lot like codependent stuff - which is often associated with women (probably because the founder of that movement was a woman). But both the Nice Guy and codependent language can be easily applied to anyone who needs to strengthen their boundaries. It's gender neutral.

I agree with the poster who said we should all focus on ourselves first. I used to nod my head in agreement - but now I truly believe it and am trying to live it.


----------



## themrs

I agree we should work on ourselves. Really, I can only change me and that's hard enough. If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.


----------



## nice777guy

themrs said:


> If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.


:iagree:

Impossible to change them, or to make them feel a different way, or to make them develop new habits that "you (or I)" find desirable.

We have influence over them, but we have control over ourselves.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> I think you misunderstood me. I did not call anybody ignorant. My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread.


You didn't make the comment ;-)
I do understand. Debate is good. Exchange is good. Having women participate in this thread is good. None of us want to be cave men. We want to be better men. The focus of what MEM, and BBW contribute is what has worked for them in keeping their wives intimately _attracted_ to them for more than two decades. Some may not care for the dynamics they outline, but results are hard to argue with. 

Even more simply, there are men that aren't looking for a mother, a housekeeper, or a wh0re. We want a partner that loves and values us and yes ... wants to have sex with us ... a lot. 

I don't feel threatened by women. I don't want women to feel threatened by me. I DO want to emulate behavior that makes me desirable, valuable and respectable. 



> It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.


The discussion of the intimate details of how that happens is invariably going to ruffle the feathers of some of the fairer sex. It isn't about devaluing, it's about being aware of, and implementing what works. Some of what works is going to sound sexist.


----------



## Deejo

Really sucks that the way we usually discover this is by going through a very long, and very painful process. 



themrs said:


> I agree we should work on ourselves. Really, I can only change me and that's hard enough. If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.


----------



## AFEH

cherrypie18 said:


> Oh yes a lot of men these days need to get their balls back. Seems like their mothers crushed them while they were still little boys.
> Women don't need a sissy guy who asks her for permission to go out (no offense to anyone I guess). We want men who put down rules, not in disrespectful ways that is and have lots of self respect, but not to the extent that their ego controls them to the very core. We don't want someone who cheats, abuses and disregards us. But we also don't need a maid, and a girlfriend...at least I personally don't. I never asked my husband to do laundry, iron, do dishes or any type of house work. He only helped me with heavy lifting and reaching places that were too high for me. Oh and I HATE it when men gossip in front of women. Total turn off lol
> 
> The way men were like in the older days was good, but they thought they had control and could do anything, including cheat and abuse. Today, you need to find the perfect balance by showing your wife your love in manly way and not a sissy way. I'm not gonna love you more because you folded my laundry or scrubbed the floor. You might as well wear my bra if you're gonna be acting like another woman just like me.


I like your post Cherrpie. I really do. You've put so much emotion and thought into your world and it's really very very nice. But I gotta say "perfect balance", perfection exists in nature but not in us humans. If we get close to it we're truly blessed.

Bob


----------



## Trenton

I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.

I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.

I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.
> 
> I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.
> 
> I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.


If we're here there's something very wrong in our lives!!!

Something is missing!

Bob


----------



## Deejo

It isn't gospel. It is anecdotal. We are talking about a sample of two. I'm not saying they are 'right', but it is a very simple tenet for business and life. If you want to be successful, find someone who is - and do what they are doing.





Trenton said:


> I still totally disagree with the idea that a varied few know what all women want and what all men want. It's just so lame and there has to at least be flexibility.
> 
> I like nice, intelligent guys. I truly do. I think they're awesome and, contrary to the majority on this board, I think they're rare. Egotistical, testosterone males are a dime a dozen. Maybe I live in a very weird part of the country.
> 
> I do think that those speaking, including myself, about good marriages are just having good marriages now. I found these boards because I was upset with my marriage and my first post was asking for help. No one knows what's in store for us. Obviously this forum board is a very small fraction of the population. It's great for communicating, sharing and sometimes learning. I'd rather root for one another than be right. In marriage right is very relative.


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> If we're here there's something very wrong in our lives!!!
> 
> Something is missing!
> 
> Bob


I know what is missing in my life, FRIENDS! 

I have good conversations with my husband, but my world is very little, so I need to feel not secluded from this world. I like forums because the whole world is open to me.


----------



## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> It isn't gospel. It is anecdotal. We are talking about a sample of two. I'm not saying they are 'right', but it is a very simple tenet for business and life. If you want to be successful, find someone who is - and do what they are doing.


Most people are happy if other people they know have a miserable life, especially women. That's called jealousy. If there are not good examples, how can other people follow. What they said about their wives are women men want. There are still happy marriages, people just need to be more considerate and loving of others instead of themselves. But sadly to say, this world is full of selfish people, if everybody is selfish, nobody likes to give then who can get. Then the selfish people are sad because they don't get what they want. If you want to get, please give.


----------



## sisters359

MEM, responding to yours on p. 2 of the posts--I agree with you. You practice give and take. When there is a disagreement, no one should have to "give" all the time. No one should have the "right" to dominate just b/c of his/her biology. In mature relationships, each of you knows when it is more important to give and to take the lead. 

I don't want a passive partner, not in the living room, kitchen, car, or bedroom. I want someone willing to take a stand and never back down on something truly, essentially important just b/c he fears being alone, or having some discord. Neither of those two things is worth giving up yourself. But to insist on being dominant just for the sake of getting laid later--well, that is just plain stupid. In the long run, that is an insult to the intelligence of BOTH people involved. You've never said you do that. Just the opposite--you know when you must take a stand. You are not afraid to stand up for yourself. How any man ever came to believe that feminism meant he is not entitled to his opinions, etc., I'll never understand. He's not entitled to oppress another b/c he is a man, and she is a woman. He's not entitled to "dominate" just b/c he has a penis and she doesn't. He cannot get away with being a controlling fool. BUT none of that means he cannot be, should not be, a responsible adult. Same for women. Any woman who feels it is her "role" to abdicate her authority as a woman, wife, and mother, just b/c her husband feels otherwise, is also abdicating her responsibility to act as an adult and make the world a better place. I do not have respect for adults who choose to act as children or tyrants just b/c it suits them sexually; that does not make it right.


----------



## greenpearl

AFEH said:


> I like your post Cherrpie. I really do. You've put so much emotion and thought into your world and it's really very very nice. But I gotta say "perfect balance", perfection exists in nature but not in us humans. If we get close to it we're truly blessed.
> 
> Bob


Humans should not strive to be perfect, because it is impossible. Know who we are, know who our spouses are, accept their flaws, accept our flaws, if they are acceptable. Just do our best and never expect perfection. Expecting perfection will put a lot of pressure on life and that is very stressful. Living a stressful life is not good for our health.


----------



## sisters359

Deejo said:


> Really sucks that the way we usually discover this is by going through a very long, and very painful process.


I think that is what we call "growing pains." Nothing worth having comes easily, generally speaking! Part of the value is in having worked for it.


----------



## sisters359

nice777guy said:


> A lot of the "Nice guy" talk sounds a lot like codependent stuff - which is often associated with women (probably because the founder of that movement was a woman). But both the Nice Guy and codependent language can be easily applied to anyone who needs to strengthen their boundaries. It's gender neutral..


Amen.


----------



## greenpearl

themrs said:


> I agree we should work on ourselves. Really, I can only change me and that's hard enough. If it's hard to change myself, I would suspect it would be impossible to change my spouse.


Never try to change others unless they want to change. We can only work on ourselves. I view changing our bad personalities like achieving a skill. It is just important. We need a good skill to make a living, we need good personalities to live a happy life. First find out what our problems are, then work on them one by one, practice and practice, that's how I changed myself. Believe me, five years ago, I was just no different from a lot of the other women, like to complain and feel sorry for my life. I studied five years, I spend five years studying life wisdom, I am still studying, and I am going to study forever, because as long as I live, I need to study how to live. I really like the peaceful mind I have now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Life is so enjoyable with a peaceful mind. So my world doesn't change, I change!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Since I am reading a book about Hormones right now & this thread has much to do about a Male using His Testosterone as nature intented, I want to add some facts here, this is the book : Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books

*As to Sexual roles -Testosterone *:

*Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies 
*Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
*Increases aggressive sex drive in both men & women -but *Doesn't have a stong effect on erection except indirectly by increasing desire.
*Increases the urge to masterbate rather than the desire for intercourse.

*As to Behavior, Testosterone *:

*Is activating
*Maintains separateness & promotes aggression
*Increases assertiveness and self -confidence
*Has been implicated as a cause of certain types of criminal behavior and domestic violence.
*Can trigger or contribute to psychotic behavior
*Rises in response to winning, social status, and pecking orders
*Is higher than usual in CAREER WOMAN 

*How we can Influence Testosterone :*

*Winning compititions/arguments/battles
*Sexual thoughtsm activities
*Diet containing Meat
*exercise


As a potent aphrodisiac for both sexes, testosterone promotes a drive for specific genital sex & orgasm . It comes with some built in contradictions. Although full of LUST, you may become overbearing & irritable & unattractive to the opposite sex. At the least, it makes you want sex, but it also makes you want to be alone or thoroughly in control of sexual situations- so it specifically promotes masterbation or 1 night stands -which is as close to being alone as possible with another person. 

Testosterone's motto: No emotional entaglements please. It is fair to say that it causes a compelling sexual urge that spurns relationships, unless they represent a conquest of acquisition of power. 

Women, having considerably less testosterone than men, are more receptive to emotional intimacy and less reluctant to commit. 

Luckily other hormones come into play to help us want the intimacy - such as *Dopamine *(Pleasure hormone) , *Oxytocin* (bonding -touching hormone), *PEA* -called the Molecule of love, PEA is the Romantic in us. *Estrogen* -men have this too & it increases as they age while test slowly descreases, *Vasopressin* -the tempering hormone - works closely with Testosterone to keep it from reaching extreme highs & getting too hot -they also call it the Monogamy hormone. 

I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended. 

I know I married a "Nice Guy", he does not masterbate hardly ever, he wants to cuddle all day long. He is always calm, always receptive, he does not need his space, rarely aggressive. It all makes sense that he *IS* this way. I know for a fact his Test levels are lower than other men his age, and most likely have always been considering his easy going temperance. 

By no means does this fact of his hormonal make up excuse him to readily become anyone's "doormat" of coarse, not his wife, his friends, his co-workers. We all need to stand up and 
RESPECT OURSELVES. I know when it came to something serious, he would turn into a MADMAN to protect me & his family, so it is there. 

But for the man OOZING with high TEST, it is "much easier" for him to just BE and walk in what BBW and MEM says over & over & over, and these books recommended about getting one's balls back. I am tempted to buy one myself for curiosity's sake to see if the Hormonal influence on our brains is even mentioned, without it, I would feel they are lacking somehow. 

I do not like to see these kind of men put down, especially when so much emphasis is put on being so dominant in the bedroom or wives loosing attraction (not the case in our marriage by any means). Some of the problem may lie with the Higher test women (career women mentioned on this thread for pages) who are not treating these decent loving men as they should- Depending of coarse on if they are doing their part in the marriage , running of the household, not wasting $$, being responsable of coarse. 

Nice guys may need to tweak some things in their life to NOT be taken advantage of, absolutely I agree with that !!! but so do the rest of us assertive confident sometimes A-holes need to treat people with more kindness and temperance. I know I have been there - many times.


----------



## greenpearl

I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended.

I know I married a "Nice Guy", he does not masterbate hardly ever, he wants to cuddle all day long. He is always calm, always receptive, he does not need his space, rarely aggressive. It all makes sense that he IS this way. I know for a fact his Test levels are lower than other men his age, and most likely have always been considering his easy going temperance.

By no means does this fact of his hormonal make up excuse him to readily become anyone's "doormat" of coarse, not his wife, his friends, his co-workers. We all need to stand up and
RESPECT OURSELVES. I know when it came to something serious, he would turn into a MADMAN to protect me & his family, so it is there.

But for the man OOZING with high TEST, it is "much easier" for him to just BE and walk in what BBW and MEM says over & over & over, and these books recommended about getting one's balls back. I am tempted to buy one myself for curiosity's sake to see if the Hormonal influence on our brains is even mentioned, without it, I would feel they are lacking somehow.

I do not like to see these kind of men put down, especially when so much emphasis is put on being so dominant in the bedroom or wives loosing attraction (not the case in our marriage by any means). Some of the problem may lie with the Higher test women (career women mentioned on this thread for pages) who are not treating these decent loving men as they should- Depending of coarse on if they are doing their part in the marriage , running of the household, not wasting $$, being responsable of coarse.

Nice guys may need to tweak some things in their life to NOT be taken advantage of, absolutely I agree with that !!! but so do the rest of us assertive confident sometimes A-holes need to treat people with more kindness and temperance. I know I have been there - many times. 



Happy for you! 

Agree with you!

Having balls is different from being domineering. They have balls, but they are not domineering. They are loving and caring.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Niceguy,
Who is being misogynistic? Well this post clears it up for me at least. 
Scanners post: I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.

I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."

Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.

I usually agree with him but this post made my skin crawl. If it was sarcasm, it certainly didn't come out that way to me. Who knows. I work with alot of women hating men. Maybe I am jaded. Apologies if that is the case!


----------



## greenpearl

Brennan said:


> Niceguy,
> Who is being misogynistic? Well this post clears it up for me at least.
> Scanners post: I just think, well. . .educated women are a little more of a burden for the married man. Knowing what I know now, when my sons someday bring a home a nice piece of tail and tell me "Hey Dad, I'm getting married. How about that?", I will take them aside and perhaps hand them this thread and tell them that you are about to have your hands full if there is a BA or a BS (or worse - a MBA, MS, MD or PhD after their name). In the meantime, I had better teach them what it means to be a man in this Brave New World.
> 
> I have even extended this theory to the fact when I remarry, I think I want a woman who is less educated than me as I start to scan "the marketplace."
> 
> Just a woman has a right to seek out an educated man, I think I as a man have a right to seek out an uneducated woman and not have to deal with all that.
> 
> I usually agree with him but this post made my skin crawl. If it was sarcasm, it certainly didn't come out that way to me. Who knows. I work with alot of women hating men. Maybe I am jaded. Apologies if that is the case!


There are a lot of women who are hurt by men. There are a lot of men who are hurt by women. There are a lot of people who are hurt by people. This is life. Life is not perfect. We have to live with it. 

I respect people who are nice to others, no matter they are men or women. I dislike people who hurt others, no matter they are men or women. 

Even though I was taught not to expect perfection from people, I dislike people who hurt others!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Most people are happy if other people they know have a miserable life, especially women. That's called jealousy. If there are not good examples, how can other people follow. What they said about their wives are women men want. There are still happy marriages, people just need to be more considerate and loving of others instead of themselves. But sadly to say, this world is full of selfish people, if everybody is selfish, nobody likes to give then who can get. Then the selfish people are sad because they don't get what they want. If you want to get, please give.


Where do you get this? Seeing other people happy is a beautiful thing always--even if I don't agree with their lifestyle. None of the women I know are hoping that I or any other woman has a miserable life either. It's being told that my life should be like someone else's that annoys me not the happiness behind that person.

Deejo, I disagree. So much difference in experience, culture and hundreds of other variables really make it so a singular relationship model can't work for all. They're just selling something that others want to buy into. That's what I think.


----------



## Trenton

sisters359 said:


> MEM, responding to yours on p. 2 of the posts--I agree with you. You practice give and take. When there is a disagreement, no one should have to "give" all the time. No one should have the "right" to dominate just b/c of his/her biology. In mature relationships, each of you knows when it is more important to give and to take the lead.
> 
> I don't want a passive partner, not in the living room, kitchen, car, or bedroom. I want someone willing to take a stand and never back down on something truly, essentially important just b/c he fears being alone, or having some discord. Neither of those two things is worth giving up yourself. But to insist on being dominant just for the sake of getting laid later--well, that is just plain stupid. In the long run, that is an insult to the intelligence of BOTH people involved. You've never said you do that. Just the opposite--you know when you must take a stand. You are not afraid to stand up for yourself. How any man ever came to believe that feminism meant he is not entitled to his opinions, etc., I'll never understand. He's not entitled to oppress another b/c he is a man, and she is a woman. He's not entitled to "dominate" just b/c he has a penis and she doesn't. He cannot get away with being a controlling fool. BUT none of that means he cannot be, should not be, a responsible adult. Same for women. Any woman who feels it is her "role" to abdicate her authority as a woman, wife, and mother, just b/c her husband feels otherwise, is also abdicating her responsibility to act as an adult and make the world a better place. I do not have respect for adults who choose to act as children or tyrants just b/c it suits them sexually; that does not make it right.


I couldn't possibly agree with you more.


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> Where do you get this? Seeing other people happy is a beautiful thing always--even if I don't agree with their lifestyle. None of the women I know are hoping that I or any other woman has a miserable life either. It's being told that my life should be like someone else's that annoys me not the happiness behind that person.
> 
> Deejo, I disagree. So much difference in experience, culture and hundreds of other variables really make it so a singular relationship model can't work for all. They're just selling something that others want to buy into. That's what I think.



Nobody's life is the same. That's why this world is so interesting. People are just giving each other advice, it may be useful, it may not be useful. 

I just want to learn and I speak out my mind! People buy it or not, doesn't matter to me!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Deejo said:


> You mean like the ones referring to particular male posters as ignorant and arrogant?


To be called ignorant or arrogant by a woman is nothing offensive to me at all in this context, as it is absolutely a good lesson to the many good men who read this thread.

Being provocative, it is a double edged sword. No matter if many women are responding positively and some are responding negatively with words, the point of the passion of the response should not be missed! 

If nothing else, for my entire life I have never worried or have had the difficulty being in the dreaded "friend zone" with any woman or young lady. 



> Nobody here in this thread is advocating or attempting to propagate the notion that women are not worthy of respect, or should be treated as objects. Quite the opposite.


Agreed. In nothing in my posts, would ever would I want to give the impression I harbor any resentment or disrespect of women. 

Actually the opposite, when a man is not in agony or utter confusion for why a woman is treating him in a certain way, then there is no reason for resentment or lack of respect.

Once the actions and behaviors are understood, then the good man can take it upon himself to become the kind of man he wishes to be. Then it is clear the responsibility for his own happiness, this ball in his own court.



> The point of the discussion isn't in looking for someone to blame. It's an acknowledgment that most of us want to be better.


And this is precisely why I spend time at this forum.



> As for the engaged husband you describe, many of us participating here were just that. We embraced the concept of 50/50, responsibility, parenting, cooking, cleaning ... you name it.
> 
> By most accounting, we would have been considered gold standard husbands - but we were simply too accommodating. We surrendered too much, did too much, chased too much ... all because we believed (mistakenly) that our wives would love us more for it. They didn't. They generally don't. They become disinterested, lose their intimate attraction, and pull away.


This is truth. 

Nothing in doing more housework or the nice guy putting a woman on a pedastal or trying to appease a woman will light the roaring fire in her for her man. 

This type of behavior, leading to the bored and insecure woman, it is a destroyer of respect and a killer of sexual attraction from a woman to her man, leading to the misery of many many many married men.

This marriage forum has many examples that is testimony to this truth.


----------



## MEM2020

SA,
This is a very balanced and accurate post. I deliberately manipulate my T levels via exercise, diet and certain behavior patterns. When I close a deal at work I can FEEL my T levels rise. When I do other stuff at work - that produces very obvious and positive results/response from co-workers - same thing. 

The BEST feeling I recall in the past two years was when we were 5 days without sex - W and I both had schedule conflicts. So I had been with her for 5 days - desiring her for 5 days - but no release. I was flooded with T. I started lifting while watching a really good football game. Got a nice adrenaline rush and the T + the adrenaline did something magical. For a good half hour the weights felt like air. You know when folks say that in mental hospitals it takes 3-4 orderlies to control 1 patient when the patient goes berserk. It was like that except I was calm/happy. Just riding some incredible hormonal surge. 

That night we connected and the next day I was mostly back to normal. 

I DO have to be careful when I am T saturated though. It is very easy to go from being aggressive to being a total prick in that state. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> Since I am reading a book about Hormones right now & this thread has much to do about a Male using His Testosterone as nature intented, I want to add some facts here, this is the book : Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books
> 
> *As to Sexual roles -Testosterone *:
> 
> *Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies
> *Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
> *Increases aggressive sex drive in both men & women -but *Doesn't have a stong effect on erection except indirectly by increasing desire.
> *Increases the urge to masterbate rather than the desire for intercourse.
> 
> *As to Behavior, Testosterone *:
> 
> *Is activating
> *Maintains separateness & promotes aggression
> *Increases assertiveness and self -confidence
> *Has been implicated as a cause of certain types of criminal behavior and domestic violence.
> *Can trigger or contribute to psychotic behavior
> *Rises in response to winning, social status, and pecking orders
> *Is higher than usual in CAREER WOMAN
> 
> *How we can Influence Testosterone :*
> 
> *Winning compititions/arguments/battles
> *Sexual thoughtsm activities
> *Diet containing Meat
> *exercise
> 
> 
> As a potent aphrodisiac for both sexes, testosterone promotes a drive for specific genital sex & orgasm . It comes with some built in contradictions. Although full of LUST, you may become overbearing & irritable & unattractive to the opposite sex. At the least, it makes you want sex, but it also makes you want to be alone or thoroughly in control of sexual situations- so it specifically promotes masterbation or 1 night stands -which is as close to being alone as possible with another person.
> 
> Testosterone's motto: No emotional entaglements please. It is fair to say that it causes a compelling sexual urge that spurns relationships, unless they represent a conquest of acquisition of power.
> 
> Women, having considerably less testosterone than men, are more receptive to emotional intimacy and less reluctant to commit.
> 
> Luckily other hormones come into play to help us want the intimacy - such as *Dopamine *(Pleasure hormone) , *Oxytocin* (bonding -touching hormone), *PEA* -called the Molecule of love, PEA is the Romantic in us. *Estrogen* -men have this too & it increases as they age while test slowly descreases, *Vasopressin* -the tempering hormone - works closely with Testosterone to keep it from reaching extreme highs & getting too hot -they also call it the Monogamy hormone.
> 
> I really believe that much of our Behaviors ARE influenced by the specific levels of hormones in our body at any given time. If any of these hormones are out of whack/lacking/too high, it can cause colossal problems -which can indeed affect our relationships. We may not act as we should, as nature intended.
> 
> I know I married a "Nice Guy", he does not masterbate hardly ever, he wants to cuddle all day long. He is always calm, always receptive, he does not need his space, rarely aggressive. It all makes sense that he *IS* this way. I know for a fact his Test levels are lower than other men his age, and most likely have always been considering his easy going temperance.
> 
> By no means does this fact of his hormonal make up excuse him to readily become anyone's "doormat" of coarse, not his wife, his friends, his co-workers. We all need to stand up and
> RESPECT OURSELVES. I know when it came to something serious, he would turn into a MADMAN to protect me & his family, so it is there.
> 
> But for the man OOZING with high TEST, it is "much easier" for him to just BE and walk in what BBW and MEM says over & over & over, and these books recommended about getting one's balls back. I am tempted to buy one myself for curiosity's sake to see if the Hormonal influence on our brains is even mentioned, without it, I would feel they are lacking somehow.
> 
> I do not like to see these kind of men put down, especially when so much emphasis is put on being so dominant in the bedroom or wives loosing attraction (not the case in our marriage by any means). Some of the problem may lie with the Higher test women (career women mentioned on this thread for pages) who are not treating these decent loving men as they should- Depending of coarse on if they are doing their part in the marriage , running of the household, not wasting $$, being responsable of coarse.
> 
> Nice guys may need to tweak some things in their life to NOT be taken advantage of, absolutely I agree with that !!! but so do the rest of us assertive confident sometimes A-holes need to treat people with more kindness and temperance. I know I have been there - many times.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Brennan said:


> My misogyny comment came from the underlying current in many of posts to this thread. In essence marry a woman that makes less than you, has less of an education and understands her role in a marriage so you won't feel threatened as a man.


I wonder if there is really the fear of being threatened.

In my own experience, I have not sensed a concern from men about being threatened as opposed to men becoming confused.

Men are confused because they are not understanding not always the words that come out of the mouth, are the reality in actions and behavior.

If a man gives a woman everything she says she wants, becomes the nice guy, helps with the housework, compromises on his own career, helps with the kids, and still his woman ends up bored, full of angst, taking depression medication, no sex, nagging, and then from the blue ends up having a full blown PA with her boss, to most men why this happens is somewhat confusing. 




> That men suddenly have their balls in a vice because women did this, not that men willingly gave them up.


I 100 percent agree with this, the balls in the vice, the man has got to stop blaming anyone else for this when it happens.



> Don't get me wrong, there were many many comments to the contrarary. It was just the "let's all harken back to the good old days" where a woman knew her place and a man was a man tone in some of the other posts that had me going.


Sexual arguments will tend to be sexist in some form, unless we all just agree to embrace dishonesty.


----------



## greenpearl

BBW:

My personal opinion, I think advice should come from people who have organized lives. That's why I respect you and MEM so much. I am happy to see you guys here every day. You guys are not here seeking advice, you guys are here trying to help. I know there are a lot of good men and women here, I am happy to see. 
I had been to some Chinese forums, some people come up and tell people their problems, and right away you see a lot of advice which doesn't make any sense. I do think that people only like to see comfort and echoes, they want to hear things which agrees with their thinking. That's a wrong attitude, I think. What you don't like to hear might help you even more, people just don't realize it until many years later. 

I am a supporter of you! I am a supporter of men who have balls but not domineering. I am a supporter of women who respect their husbands and try hard to meet their husbands' needs.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> This is a very balanced and accurate post. I deliberately manipulate my T levels via exercise, diet and certain behavior patterns. When I close a deal at work I can FEEL my T levels rise. When I do other stuff at work - that produces very obvious and positive results/response from co-workers - same thing.
> 
> The BEST feeling I recall in the past two years was when we were 5 days without sex - W and I both had schedule conflicts. So I had been with her for 5 days - desiring her for 5 days - but no release. I was flooded with T. I started lifting while watching a really good football game. Got a nice adrenaline rush and the T + the adrenaline did something magical. For a good half hour the weights felt like air. You know when folks say that in mental hospitals it takes 3-4 orderlies to control 1 patient when the patient goes berserk. It was like that except I was calm/happy. Just riding some incredible hormonal surge.
> 
> That night we connected and the next day I was mostly back to normal.
> 
> I DO have to be careful when I am T saturated though. It is very easy to go from being aggressive to being a total prick in that state.


Men need sex to be sane!!!!!


----------



## MEM2020

GP,
It is true that I try to help here. It is also true that I learn. I have learned to be less verbal/more non-verbal with my W from reading BBW. I have learned to fine tune my alpha/beta blend from Atholk. I have gotten to smile reading your posts which remind me so much of my W. 

Sometimes I get frustrated with the male posters when I feel that they are giving up on their situation or maybe even themselves. 




greenpearl said:


> BBW:
> 
> My personal opinion, I think advice should come from people who have organized lives. That's why I respect you and MEM so much. I am happy to see you guys here every day. You guys are not here seeking advice, you guys are here trying to help. I know there are a lot of good men and women here, I am happy to see.
> I had been to some Chinese forums, some people come up and tell people their problems, and right away you see a lot of advice which doesn't make any sense. I do think that people only like to see comfort and echoes, they want to hear things which agrees with their thinking. That's a wrong attitude, I think. What you don't like to hear might help you even more, people just don't realize it until many years later.
> 
> I am a supporter of you! I am a supporter of men who have balls but not domineering. I am a supporter of women who respect their husband and try hard to meet their husbands' needs.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> GP,
> It is true that I try to help here. It is also true that I learn. I have learned to be less verbal/more non-verbal with my W from reading BBW. I have learned to fine tune my alpha/beta blend from Atholk. I have gotten to smile reading your posts which remind me so much of my W.
> 
> Sometimes I get frustrated with the male posters when I feel that they are giving up on their situation or maybe even themselves.


I am learning a LOT here, mostly about what not to do!!!
I feel happy that there are quite a few happy marriages here, at least we give people some hope. 

It is not easy to change people's personalities. It is difficult to help men without balls grow balls right away, it is difficult to help women who are insecure feel secure right away. We just do want we can. 

At least you and BBW can read sad posts and try to help. I can't. I feel sad when I read sad posts, so sometimes I try to post something positive. Teachers like to teach. I am not a doctor, I can't fix people's problems. But we do our best, I feel happy if I can give a piece of wisdom from books I read and benefit a few people. 
I respect people who are self sacrificing and loving!!!! 

IMO, people should seek advice from people whose life is organized. I do agree that other people have some wisdom, but not that profound!!!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Concerning the aversion to the words and phrases concerning male sexual dominance:


I am not doing anything not 100 percent what my woman responds to, or wants or, okay let me say it, often BEGS me to.

In this, how can it even be considered that there is some oppression or lack of consideration for my wife or any woman?

Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated.

Male dominance is not in any way some excuse for a man to be lazy and neglecting his responsibilties for all these things under his care. 

If I was to ignore what my wife is wanting to experience sexually because I was afraid, or because some feminist somewhere would be offended, or any other reason under the sun, then I am neglecting not only my responsibility but my greatest opportunity for happiness and success for myself and my wife and my marriage.

Likewise, if I was not already of the mettle to win my wife's attraction and respect already to begin with, by my own care for my own appearance and manners, my aspirations and goals, my protective instincts of her, how I treat her with respect as a lady, my integrity in conducting myself, and, this is most important to my woman and I will assume all women, my HONESTY, then my domination of her sexually behind closed doors is not even going to be the opportunity to be an issue.

For in this case, my wife is going to be closed intimately, sexually, and emotionally to me if I am neglecting my responsibilities.

And lest any good man in this scenario believes in this case his woman is some assexual being just because she is "getting old" or "had children" or a million other excuses, then this good man should not be surprised when around the corner appears some affair man, and that if this affair man does express some mettle that the first man is either lacking or neglecting, and the woman is seeing in this other man the dominating hints that he is lacking, then she is 100 percent on fire for this affair man and leaving her good man in the dust.

This is simply how it is. 

I am knowing and seeing it even in my own marriage, the times years ago when I put on the nice guy mask so much as many other men, did the sex decrease and the emotional distance increase. 

This is simply cause and effect, it is not politics or feminism or manism or misogynist or misandrist or any other ism or ist you can think of. 

It is rubber meets the road truth! 

A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this. 

The point is, when a woman is not attracted sexually to her man, then is the happiness of both the good man and woman going to go down, the resentment will go up, and the likelyhood of EA or PA or divorce will skyrocket.

So ask yourself and answer this question, why do the good man and woman get married in the first place?

Is it because marriage is a wise business decision? 

Is it based on logic?

Is it based on reason?

Is it sexual attraction?


Hint, the answer is sexual attraction!


There is nothing rocket science in my own marriage that is so inexplicable as not to be beneficial to any good man or woman also wanting passionate sex to fuel their own relationships.

Also there is nothing in my own marriage to suggest that my dominate advice extends beyond the closed doors of the bedroom. 

I have typed time and time and time again, for anyone on this forum to see me and my wife together, it is nothing less than I dote on her and I am wrapped around her finger!

Only the slyest eyes would catch sometimes the glances or body language that is also present, how I touch her or she touches me or even our own subtle facial expressions that may contain the slightest hint of what may or may not occur behind closed doors. 

This thing we call sexual attraction, it is not smoke and mirrors, this thing called sexual attraction is merely cause and effect of our own actions and behaviors.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo, I disagree. So much difference in experience, culture and hundreds of other variables really make it so a singular relationship model can't work for all. They're just selling something that others want to buy into. That's what I think.


I bought a book called "The Lay Guide". Yes, it is exactly what you think. It contains all of the elements that MEM and BBW discuss. Self-control, confidence, hygiene, dominance, patterning, mirroring. They are real. They work. It's fine if you don't like how the message is conveyed. But importantly, _the message isn't for you_. What BBW and MEM are 'selling' are methods of behavior meant to benefit both partners in a marriage - but you don't choose to see it that way. 

What I continuously fail to understand coming from female posters that simply reject this notion outright - is that the goal is a balanced relationship where both parties feel at ease, respected, trusting, loving and horny. THAT is what all of this is about. Do you believe those aren't _desirable_ results for any long term relationship? 

Believe whatever you like. There are models and patterns of behavior that can increase attraction, just as there are models and patterns of behavior that can kill it. Nobody would argue with the latter - so why get hung up on the former?

Balance is maintained by the correct proportion of _opposing forces_. It's the correct application of those opposing forces that most of us screw up.


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## okeydokie

Deejo said:


> I bought a book called "The Lay Guide". Yes, it is exactly what you think. It contains all of the elements that MEM and BBW discuss. Self-control, confidence, hygiene, dominance, patterning, mirroring. They are real. They work. It's fine if you don't like what their selling. But what they are 'selling' are methods of behavior meant to benefit both partners in a marriage - but you don't choose to see it that way.
> 
> What I continuously fail to understand coming from female posters that simply reject this notion outright - is that the goal is a balanced relationship where both parties feel at ease, respected, trusting, loving and horny. THAT is what all of this is about. Do you believe those aren't _desirable_ results for any long term relationship?
> 
> Believe whatever you like. There are models and patterns of behavior that can increase attraction, just as there are models and patterns of behavior that can kill it. Nobody would argue with the latter - so why get hung up on the former?
> 
> Balance is maintained by the correct proportion of _opposing forces_. It's the correct application of those opposing forces that most of us screw up.



its about taking some responsibility for whats wrong and accountability to fix it. traits that are increasingly lost in our society. nobody wants to be wrong. successful marriage requires ones pride to be swallowed often.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I bought a book called "The Lay Guide". Yes, it is exactly what you think. It contains all of the elements that MEM and BBW discuss. Self-control, confidence, hygiene, dominance, patterning, mirroring. They are real. They work. It's fine if you don't like how the message is conveyed. But importantly, _the message isn't for you_. What BBW and MEM are 'selling' are methods of behavior meant to benefit both partners in a marriage - but you don't choose to see it that way.
> 
> What I continuously fail to understand coming from female posters that simply reject this notion outright - is that the goal is a balanced relationship where both parties feel at ease, respected, trusting, loving and horny. THAT is what all of this is about. Do you believe those aren't _desirable_ results for any long term relationship?
> 
> Believe whatever you like. There are models and patterns of behavior that can increase attraction, just as there are models and patterns of behavior that can kill it. Nobody would argue with the latter - so why get hung up on the former?
> 
> Balance is maintained by the correct proportion of _opposing forces_. It's the correct application of those opposing forces that most of us screw up.


I don't reject the notion outright. It's working for these men who are advocating for it or it is at least working now. I actually really like Mem, I think he has a balanced view on things and respect his opinion as well as think his relationship with his wife sounds great and balanced. It might just come down to bedside manner with BBW but I can't stand his text or his attitude towards women in general. His attitude might work for him and it might attract wayward men looking for something he's offering and attention hungry women looking to be cheerleaders but it personally repulses me.

Overall my problem is not what they are trying to teach, it is that it's ignorant to believe this will work for all couples. It wouldn't work for my husband and I and we have all the positive qualities you listed in your post.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

I agree with Trenton - one size does not fit all (you guys should know that from condoms - HA).

Everyone is different. A truly aggressive, dominate man will not work for a truly aggressive, dominate woman - opposites attract for a reason - they balance each other out.

I am the more aggressive one in the relationship and my husband is more passive - always has been - if I was married to a truly dominate, aggressive man - we would have some major issues. My husband balances out my aggressive side with his calmness and ability to stay unflappable in the midst of the storm and I balance out his calmness and get aggressive when something needs to get done.

Do we both get things done - sure we do - but each in our own way and path.

So while these are tried and true methods (according to some of the posters), they don't work for everyone, just like one size fits all condoms don't work for every man. Believe it or not - there are men who prefer "not to wear the pants" in the family and like the fact that their wives wear them and don't complain at all.

My husband can tell you he likes the fact that I wear the pants - hell, he gave them to me years ago - less stress on him, do I consider him a weaker man - no - am I less sexually attracted - no, quite the opposite. And he likes the dominance in bed too (when we do have sex, but that has nothing to do with our roles in the marriage - that is medical). 

My husband likes take-charge women - I like take-charge men - which he is when he needs to be, but he doesn't have to dominate me and club me on the head and drag me to bed when he's ready - that does not TURN "ME" ON. 

My two cents worth...


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## greenpearl

My personal opinion, I noticed that happy marriages are similar, just different people, different jobs, different culture background. But miserable marriages have all kinds of different reasons.

If you want to get married, be wary of anyone who is proud and opinionated, never willing to compromise, or who constantly demands and schemes to have his or her own way.


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## greenpearl

In a truly successful marriage, the couple are good friends and enjoy each other's company. For this, they need to have interests in common. It is difficult to sustain a close relationship-much less a marriage, when this is not the case. Still, if your prospective partner enjoys a particular activity, such as hiking, and you do not, does that mean that the two of you should not get married? Not necessarily. Perhaps you share other, more important interests. Moreover, you might give happiness to your prospective partner by sharing in wholesome activities because the other person enjoys them.

Indeed, , to a large degree, compatibility is determined by how adaptable both of you are rather than by how identical you are. Instead of asking, " Do we agree on everything?" some better questions might be:" What happens when we disagree? Can we discuss matters calmly, according to each other respect and dignity? Or do discussing often deteriorate into heated arguments?


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## SimplyAmorous

Ok my turn to weigh in here again. In honesty, I also get my feathers ruffled a little with some of the things BigBadWolf says, his words seems to trample underfoot the way MY husband *IS*, like he is Less of a man in comparison to these"GOOD" men he speaks of. But it is only this bedroom talk that ruffles me, nothing else as my husband is completely responsible, an excellent provider/father, superb handyman & never whines. 

But for the sake of understanding, maybe I need to ask more questions, maybe I am assuming things that ought not to be assumed. When I read this>>>>


BigBadWolf said:


> Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure, a man strives to dominate, a woman strives to be dominated..


 and all of the "Resentment" talk that he speaks of IF this is not happening in the bedroom, this is where I do not feel you can put all couples into a BOX. 

So lets talk about this particular dominance in the bedroom & it’s VITAL marriage sustaining role in sexual attraction..... * So What does this GOOD MAN oozing with attraction, that his wife is wet for him 24/7, what exactly does he do in the bedroom to achieve this ??? I would like some DETAILS please. This is somewhere nonone has ventured to go just yet on this thread. * 

I have a very very good feeling if you try to explain this, it will greatly fit the example of an *EROTIC LOVER*. Taken from this book Amazon.com: When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life (9781569242711): Sandra Pertot: Books >>> You need passion, excitement and variety to feel that your relationship is vibrant & sustainable. This means enjoying frequent sexual touch such as fondling the breasts, patting the bottom (SPANKING), stroking the genitals as well as having regular prolonged exciting sex. Downside is this>> Erotic lovers can be rigid & judgemental (probablay what some of us are picking up on). You tend to believe that you are more sophisticated, knowledgeable & flexible than your partner. However, your acceptance of variety only relates to sex with "an edge" activities, but only those that give you a thrill. You tend to be dismissive of quietly sensual & predictable lovemaking ('Vanilla Sex"). Erotic Libido types can therefore find that their ideal relationship is elusive. Your belief that an erotic sex life is the necessary foundation for a committed relationship can lead you to the conclusion that either your relationship or your partner has a problem if your sex life lacks the exact CHALLENGES you desire. So much more can be said here but it is a start. 


I would also venture to say many Nice Guys, those not so dominate in the bedroom, may fit the* SENSUAL LOVER *description >>>> Sex for this lover is more about emotional connection & reinforcement of mutual caring, so the focus is less on what is actually done & more on whether your partner is willing to be physically intimate & is emotionally present during sex. You describe each other as best friends , you look for time together & are happy in each others company , you want sex to be an extension of this, with an easy familiarity & comfortable atmosphere & the most important aspect of sex is knowing that your partner looks forward to physical intimacy as much as you do. This is the man with the SLOW hand and the EASY Touch. I think there is a slew more women out there , besides the Pointer sisters, who appreciates this kind of MAN & the sexual attraction to him is not something to spit at. 

What I get from your posts is that this kind of Lover is inadequate somehow, so please, DO correct me if I misunderstanding.


----------



## Conrad

>>A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this.<<

Absolute truth.

And, if you do not hit this mark, work on yourself, physically, emotionally, and intellectually - until you CAN hit this mark.

I have been both. So, I know.


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## nice777guy

*>>A woman is irresistibly attracted to the man in control of himself and his environment, and resentful of the man who is opposite this.<<*

Makes perfect sense but not always true.

We've all known people - both men and women - who were drawn to someone who is out of control - perhaps with drugs or alcohol or self-discipline. It can be exciting. Or sometimes viewed as a challenge or a project to try and help this poor but attractive soul. These relationships are almost always doomed - but it shows that there can be attraction to someone who is not in control.

I recently read an article about how more young people are co-habitating (living in sin, whatever) and how this is much different from how it was 10 years ago. The article cited that more young working women are "settling" for younger men who can't find a job in today's economy. 

Of course no one ever questioned a young working man who will "support" a young unemployed woman. But a woman who does the same is just "settling."


Also:
Is the opposite of the statement above true? 

>>A *man* is irresistibly *attracted to a woman in control *of herself and her environment, and *resentful of the woman is opposite this*.<<

The first half makes sense - but I'm not sure that men are "resentful" of women who are not in control.

In other words, is it truly a gender issue, or are people just more attracted to people who have their $hit together?

Or, if it truly is a gender issue, should the opposite read like this:

>>A man is irresistibly attracted to a woman *who is not in control of herself* and her environment, and is *repelled by* the woman who is opposite this<<

Makes no sense - but still happens.


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## Conrad

Infatuation is quite different than long-term attraction.

Once you get past 90 days or so, you get a pretty good idea if you have something to work with.


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## mommyof31982

first- GOOD FOR YOU!!!

Second, I agree 100% about too many male figures and not enough MEN. I myself like a mans man- not an overly afeminine yes man.

Growing up in the deep south- I know alot of women who have stayed stuck in the reverse of that rut their whole sad lives. Woman down there dote and spoil their men. That is what I learned and when I entered my first serious relationship that is what I did. I let him where the crown, did everything as he would like it, didnt do things i thougt would upset him (thats just how I was taught to "keep" a man) I didnt force my opinions down his throat and I was very young, right out of highschool so I did not have the maturity yet to know that I was doing myself an injustice. Long story short- I found out 3 yrs into the relationship I found out he was ferkin around with a girl we went to highschool with and a long revelation later I realized the same things you have. I still do all sorts of things for my husband alot of it my friends say I am crazy for- but he also does a lot for me.We have a mostly good balance of doting and "self" preservation.


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## SimplyAmorous

So why no takers on my specific questions above - in regards to dominance in the bedroom & it's role in a Man's man's life ? I really was hoping for some takers, I am a little disappointed here.


What exactly does "dominance" behind closed doors mean to you all. Is it a matter of just NOT being afraid to initiate , touch your woman, & getting frisky when you are in the mood ...Or it is alot more than that... like throwing her down on the bed, saying "you are mine now", aggressively moving her to where you want, picking her up, carrying her to the bed even if she may not necessarily want that at the moment, stripping her clothes off before she knows what is happening, maybe pushing her up against the wall, pushing her head down on you. A lusty ravishing -maybe even against her will at 1st until you break her down & she wants you, spanking to show who is in control. This is what comes to my mind when I hear the phrase "Dominance in the bedroom".

Not every man acts like this. I think it is more in the movies. Enlighten me.


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## nice777guy

Not sure I have your answer SA. I guess what I would like to know is what kind of lover women really want. Do WOMEN - the real people who count here - think that the Sensual lover is somehow inferior to the Erotic or a more dominant lover?

I would "guess" that most women like a bit of variety and that a good lover would be able to adapt to different styles based upon the mood.

You had also asked earlier about "Man-up" books and whether they mentioned testosterone. The two that I've read (Way of Superior Man and No More Mr Nice Guy), from what I recall, focused much more on environmental or social pressures from society. Not sure I recall testosterone being discussed at length in either book, but I could be forgetting something.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok my turn to weigh in here again. In honesty, I also get my feathers ruffled a little with some of the things BigBadWolf says, his words seems to trample underfoot the way MY husband *IS*, like he is Less of a man in comparison to these"GOOD" men he speaks of. But it is only this bedroom talk that ruffles me, nothing else as my husband is completely responsible, an excellent provider/father, superb handyman & never whines.
> 
> But for the sake of understanding, maybe I need to ask more questions, maybe I am assuming things that ought not to be assumed. When I read this>>>> and all of the "Resentment" talk that he speaks of IF this is not happening in the bedroom, this is where I do not feel you can put all couples into a BOX.
> 
> So lets talk about this particular dominance in the bedroom & it’s VITAL marriage sustaining role in sexual attraction..... * So What does this GOOD MAN oozing with attraction, that his wife is wet for him 24/7, what exactly does he do in the bedroom to achieve this ??? I would like some DETAILS please. This is somewhere nonone has ventured to go just yet on this thread. *
> 
> I have a very very good feeling if you try to explain this, it will greatly fit the example of an *EROTIC LOVER*. Taken from this book Amazon.com: When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life (9781569242711): Sandra Pertot: Books >>> You need passion, excitement and variety to feel that your relationship is vibrant & sustainable. This means enjoying frequent sexual touch such as fondling the breasts, patting the bottom (SPANKING), stroking the genitals as well as having regular prolonged exciting sex. Downside is this>> Erotic lovers can be rigid & judgemental (probablay what some of us are picking up on). You tend to believe that you are more sophisticated, knowledgeable & flexible than your partner. However, your acceptance of variety only relates to sex with "an edge" activities, but only those that give you a thrill. You tend to be dismissive of quietly sensual & predictable lovemaking ('Vanilla Sex"). Erotic Libido types can therefore find that their ideal relationship is elusive. Your belief that an erotic sex life is the necessary foundation for a committed relationship can lead you to the conclusion that either your relationship or your partner has a problem if your sex life lacks the exact CHALLENGES you desire. So much more can be said here but it is a start.
> 
> 
> I would also venture to say many Nice Guys, those not so dominate in the bedroom, may fit the* SENSUAL LOVER *description >>>> Sex for this lover is more about emotional connection & reinforcement of mutual caring, so the focus is less on what is actually done & more on whether your partner is willing to be physically intimate & is emotionally present during sex. You describe each other as best friends , you look for time together & are happy in each others company , you want sex to be an extension of this, with an easy familiarity & comfortable atmosphere & the most important aspect of sex is knowing that your partner looks forward to physical intimacy as much as you do. This is the man with the SLOW hand and the EASY Touch. I think there is a slew more women out there , besides the Pointer sisters, who appreciates this kind of MAN & the sexual attraction to him is not something to spit at.
> 
> What I get from your posts is that this kind of Lover is inadequate somehow, so please, DO correct me if I misunderstanding.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> Do WOMEN - the real people who count here - think that the Sensual lover is somehow inferior to the Erotic or a more dominant lover?.


 Thank you so much Nice Guy, for at least this reply . I can't speak for all women, of coarse, only myself. I will be the 1st to admit, I would LOVE an Erotic Lover, I know this because I consider myself to be that Type (although I didnt use to be, so I guess people can change- I believe my change is hormonal also), but what I have in my husband is definetely the "Sensual Lover"-luckily he is Not all vanilla & when really HOT , if not had some in days, I can feel the more ravishing spirit in him. Those are the best of times. 

If I had to choose between one or the other ALL THE TIME, I do feel I would Choose the Sensual. But Erotic once in a while, OH YES! But remember, I am a woman who 'wants it", loves the adventurous spirit of that. On the bad side, I can honestly say, being this way, I have caused my own husband some grief, he comes away feeling I want the Sex MORE than Him. We Erotics tend to be a little hard to please, even demanding. Does this mean I will loose attraction for him & resent him. Of course not. If the sex stopped, I would definetly say this could happen , but I am very very happy with my more Sensual -more "equal" partner, with the slow hand & the easy touch. His Lover qualities make me feel overwhelmingly LOVED, maybe not as lustily Desired as the Erotic but "Fullfilling in the heart" -kind of Desired. 



nice777guy said:


> I would "guess" that most women like a bit of variety and that a good lover would be able to adapt to different styles based upon the mood.


 Yes, variety is the spice of life, it is BLISS.



nice777guy said:


> You had also asked earlier about "Man-up" books and whether they mentioned testosterone. The two that I've read (Way of Superior Man and No More Mr Nice Guy), from what I recall, focused much more on environmental or social pressures from society. Not sure I recall testosterone being discussed at length in either book, but I could be forgetting something.


 Thank you for this. I feel that is a shame & these books are lacking in this area then (but I have no doubt they are excellent). My feeling is any book written about being MORE Aggressive should have a decent study on the Hormone that creates this feeling, this Urge to be this way & walk in it. Of coarse Environment plays a role also, how we were raised, but never should we ever downplay the role of HORMONES on our brains & how we act. A high Test guy often needs to temper these urges DOWN, a Lower Test guy needs to Tempter them UP somehow. 

Depression, PMS, ADD, we all know these things are REAL, they are also GREATLY hormonal in nature, that is why we have drugs to treat them. Have you ever wondered why women breastfeeding never cares about sex, it is because her Prolactin levels SOARS (they also soar after orgasm), this inhibits sex drive. Men who are deadbeat father are probably lacking Oxytocin, the parenting or Bonding hormone. PEA at low levels can cause Depression , at high levels Psychosis, people with too much Dopamine are easily addicted , from cocaine to gambling, even sex. These hormones all have their good and their bad side, as I showed with Testosterone. Those among us who are balanced in these areas obviously are blessed with our hormones being in fine tune with each other.


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## Deejo

I will take a shot, based on my own experience. I will also make the statement that it is not my opinion that anybody is trying to put someone else in a box or diminish them in these discussions. We are trying to distill very complex social and sexual interactions down into a few sentences and easy to follow steps. 

SA by your own admission, for a very long time you weren't much interested in sex - and at times, treated your husband poorly. My overall impression in what I know of your story, is that YOU changed. Your husband stayed the course. He is who he is - and you came to accept and love him for it. I don't recall if he pursued you for sex. I don't recall if resentment became a factor.

We are looking for what works - plain and simple. We are looking for what works, based upon _what went wrong_.

In my case, I used to directly tie my sense of worth, and self-identity into whether or not a woman loved me. So ... I consistently tried to elevate my sense of worth by trying to 'make' my spouse love me. When it started to falter, I tried harder - and she continued to move away. My behavior yielded the absolute opposite result of what I expected, but it was the only behavior I knew, so I kept at it.

I have since learned new behaviors. Behaviors that have undone my previously skewed perception, and have taught me valuable lessons in my new endeavors into relationships.

On to the bedroom ...

I like your descriptions below, but again in essence, aren't they putting people into a box? I think we tend to fluctuate between the two. I think the longer term the relationship and the greater the compatibility of the partners, the relationship will establish a dynamic leaning primarily towards one of these two models.

BBW and his wife have an erotic sexual relationship. You have a sensual sexual relationship with your husband. Everybody involved in the enterprise seems pretty good with the two dynamics. I would venture that both couples, or any healthy couple, occasionally crosses over from one to the other.

In my case, I am both. My relationship with my stbx went on a straight trajectory from EROTIC sex to SENSUAL sex - then there is a third category UTILITARIAN sex. You are in trouble when you're in the third category. And a lot of us end up there. I don't ever want to be there again. It's why I value these discussions.

I don't think a man who is a sensual lover is any less than a man who is a sexual Tyranosaurus. Again, to me, sex is about dynamics. The dynamic is established because it is what the participants strive towards - the essence of what BBW is saying. The cornerstone of any intimate relationship is sex. Period. It's why we become 'intimate'.

"Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure ..."
Males are hardwired to pursue sex. We'd be down several billion as a species were that not in fact the case. 

"...a woman strives to be dominated." 
The female submits to, and has sex with the partner that wins her over. The partner that she _desires_. Consenting to sex remains straightforward and a simple matter for as long as the male continues to display _desirable_ traits. Some of those desirable traits fall into the buckets of alpha or dominant behavior (responsibility, success, aggressiveness, confidence, certainty, dependability, steadfastness)

In my last two, long-term relationships the sexual dynamic got to the place where the 'sexual structure' was on it's head. I certainly wasn't trying to be undesirable, but the closer I tried to get, the more I tried to interact with, share my emotions, please, or demonstrate commitment to my partner - the less she wanted to have sex. If I had to sum up my core issue, I was too accomodating, too tolerant, and too available. Yes, I was 'nice'. Neither woman would describe me as a whimp. I actually think that both would have good things ... nice things to say about me. My bottom line is that I would rather they are attracted to, and find me desirable, than find me well behaved, well mannered, a good provider and father. I am those things, but they don't much matter if my partner isn't interested in sleeping with me. I am no less the man that either woman fell in love with, but I behaved in a manner that neither maintained, nor increased their _desire_ for me.

Where your husband stayed the course, and you came to appreciate, accept, and love him for who he is, my partners pulled away and looked elsewhere for desire.

I for one am not going to argue with what works. What I was doing wasn't working. I'm kicking some new tires, and the changes I have implemented so far have benefited me as an individual, and I believe will make me a better partner in my next LTR.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok my turn to weigh in here again. In honesty, I also get my feathers ruffled a little with some of the things BigBadWolf says, his words seems to trample underfoot the way MY husband *IS*, like he is Less of a man in comparison to these"GOOD" men he speaks of. But it is only this bedroom talk that ruffles me, nothing else as my husband is completely responsible, an excellent provider/father, superb handyman & never whines.
> 
> But for the sake of understanding, maybe I need to ask more questions, maybe I am assuming things that ought not to be assumed. When I read this>>>> and all of the "Resentment" talk that he speaks of IF this is not happening in the bedroom, this is where I do not feel you can put all couples into a BOX.
> 
> So lets talk about this particular dominance in the bedroom & it’s VITAL marriage sustaining role in sexual attraction..... * So What does this GOOD MAN oozing with attraction, that his wife is wet for him 24/7, what exactly does he do in the bedroom to achieve this ??? I would like some DETAILS please. This is somewhere nonone has ventured to go just yet on this thread. *
> 
> I have a very very good feeling if you try to explain this, it will greatly fit the example of an *EROTIC LOVER*. Taken from this book Amazon.com: When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life (9781569242711): Sandra Pertot: Books >>> You need passion, excitement and variety to feel that your relationship is vibrant & sustainable. This means enjoying frequent sexual touch such as fondling the breasts, patting the bottom (SPANKING), stroking the genitals as well as having regular prolonged exciting sex. Downside is this>> Erotic lovers can be rigid & judgemental (probablay what some of us are picking up on). You tend to believe that you are more sophisticated, knowledgeable & flexible than your partner. However, your acceptance of variety only relates to sex with "an edge" activities, but only those that give you a thrill. You tend to be dismissive of quietly sensual & predictable lovemaking ('Vanilla Sex"). Erotic Libido types can therefore find that their ideal relationship is elusive. Your belief that an erotic sex life is the necessary foundation for a committed relationship can lead you to the conclusion that either your relationship or your partner has a problem if your sex life lacks the exact CHALLENGES you desire. So much more can be said here but it is a start.
> 
> 
> I would also venture to say many Nice Guys, those not so dominate in the bedroom, may fit the* SENSUAL LOVER *description >>>> Sex for this lover is more about emotional connection & reinforcement of mutual caring, so the focus is less on what is actually done & more on whether your partner is willing to be physically intimate & is emotionally present during sex. You describe each other as best friends , you look for time together & are happy in each others company , you want sex to be an extension of this, with an easy familiarity & comfortable atmosphere & the most important aspect of sex is knowing that your partner looks forward to physical intimacy as much as you do. This is the man with the SLOW hand and the EASY Touch. I think there is a slew more women out there , besides the Pointer sisters, who appreciates this kind of MAN & the sexual attraction to him is not something to spit at.
> 
> What I get from your posts is that this kind of Lover is inadequate somehow, so please, DO correct me if I misunderstanding.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> "Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure ..."
> Males are hardwired to pursue sex. We'd be down several billion as a species were that not in fact the case.
> 
> "...a woman strives to be dominated."
> The female submits to, and has sex with the partner that wins her over. The partner that she _desires_. Consenting to sex remains straightforward and a simple matter for as long as the male continues to display _desirable_ traits. Some of those desirable traits fall into the buckets of alpha or dominant behavior (responsibility, success, aggressiveness, confidence, certainty, dependability, steadfastness)


 I really apprecaite your explantion here, it does not offend my senses. 

Yes, you are correct, I changed more than my husband did. He has remained the same -always tried & true. Thankfully, we always had a wonderful marraige, I simply did not know he was sufferng sexually cause he just didn't talk about it (until I started asking questions). He never complained, for all I knew, he was happy with once a week. He liked mornings, I liked nights but often he was fast asleep by the time I put my book down. He secretly hated my books. He should have spoken up. So we missed alot of opportunitues I guess. 

Looking back, I do feel he FELT his self -esteem was wrapped up in how much I WANTED HIM, so he simply waited for me to come around to him many times. 

I am different than other women, I am NOT one to pull away from Doting, closeness or kindness, I love these things, my husband did nothing wrong here (as many of you feel this pushed away your woman) - His only blunder was skewed communication, because of what he heard other places... do her dishes, help her around the house, then you'll get more sex ...WHAT?? That might work for an "Acts of service" wife, but that is NOT me, that is almost silly to me. He needed to "open up" with me , *express his longings through words & more touch*, not supress them. That is where he failed. But never once did I want anyone else. 

So yeah, our little story is not the norm by any means. 

Just like too much doting and attention can turn a woman off, not enough can turn her away also (for a small minority like myself). I will agree he could have learned some lessons from these Balls books about Assertivenss and persuing with confidence back in the day. 

But aren't we all Living and Learning. Which books do you most recommend about this subject? I do plan to buy at least one. He will never read it but he lets me read him anything-which I do often. Not to get on BBW , but I once read my husband one of his posts & he looks at me & says "He is a Bragger" and starts talking about these guys at work that talk like that. 

I am not saying He brags, so dont jump on me, anyone who is full of confidence and assurance of WHAT WORKS has the ability to come off this way. But I still found it very funny that he said that to me.


----------



## cherrypie18

Deejo said:


> I don't think a man who is a sensual lover is any less than a man who is a sexual Tyranosaurus. Again, to me, sex is about dynamics. The dynamic is established because it is what the participants strive towards - the essence of what BBW is saying. The cornerstone of any intimate relationship is sex. Period. It's why we become 'intimate'.
> 
> "Sexual domination by a man, this is the core of the sexual structure ..."
> Males are hardwired to pursue sex. We'd be down several billion as a species were that not in fact the case.
> 
> "...a woman strives to be dominated."
> The female submits to, and has sex with the partner that wins her over. The partner that she _desires_. Consenting to sex remains straightforward and a simple matter for as long as the male continues to display _desirable_ traits. Some of those desirable traits fall into the buckets of alpha or dominant behavior (responsibility, success, aggressiveness, confidence, certainty, dependability, steadfastness)
> 
> In my last two, long-term relationships the sexual dynamic got to the place where the 'sexual structure' was on it's head. I certainly wasn't trying to be undesirable, but the closer I tried to get, the more I tried to interact with, share my emotions, please, or demonstrate commitment to my partner - the less she wanted to have sex. If I had to sum up my core issue, I was too accomodating, too tolerant, and too available. Yes, I was 'nice'. Neither woman would describe me as a whimp. I actually think that both would have good things ... nice things to say about me. My bottom line is that I would rather they are attracted to, and find me desirable, than find me well behaved, well mannered, a good provider and father. I am those things, but they don't much matter if my partner isn't interested in sleeping with me. I am no less the man that either woman fell in love with, but I behaved in a manner that neither maintained, nor increased their _desire_ for me.


Made me think of the discovery channel, where they show how the female chooses who to mate with. It's always the male who either wins the fight, or has the biggest nest etc. 

I don't think we're all that very different from animals, we just put a lot more thought into things and forget about our instincts. Consciousness is simply what separates us from the beasts.


----------



## Deejo

> Looking back, I do feel he FELT his self -esteem was wrapped up in how much I WANTED HIM, so he simply waited for me to come around to him many times.


 I tried this. I think a lot of resigned married guys fall into this category. I let her take the lead. Let me know when you are comfortable and ready - because I'm tired of being rejected and by being patient and understanding, you think you are being a great guy. She did nothing for the next 90 days, and I kept my mouth shut. It does a number on men. I don't think many women are, or want to be aware of how damaging consistently refusing sex is. Instead, it becomes a punch-line. My ex used sex as a means of passive aggressive control. I will NEVER allow this dynamic to occur in another relationship.



> I am different than other women, I am NOT one to pull away from Doting, closeness or kindness, I love these things, my husband did nothing wrong here (as many of you feel this pushed away your woman) - His only blunder was skewed communication, because of what he heard other places... do her dishes, help her around the house, then you'll get more sex ...WHAT?? That might work for an "Acts of service" wife, but that is NOT me, that is almost silly to me. He needed to "open up" with me , *express his longings through words & more touch*, not supress them. That is where he failed. But never once did I want anyone else.


Prior to my blowing a gasket in our marriage, my wife would have also said, "I didn't want anyone else." The issue was, _she didn't want me either_. Of course once she became emotionally engaged and attached to TOM, she was again fully invested in EROTIC sex. But like clockwork, the more their relationship has settled into a pattern of normal - I'm pretty confident that the physical side of their relationship has dropped precipitously. It was simply more fun when she didn't have to think about what it was and what it meant.

My LL is also physical touch. Her's distinctly was not. Hers I believe would be 'words of affirmation', which as our marriage got stuck, and I would implement, she merely saw as a ruse for sex. It was an extraordinarily damaged dynamic.





> Which books do you most recommend about this subject?


You simply cannot go wrong with "No More Mr. Nice Guy" 



> Not to get on BBW , but I once read my husband one of his posts & he looks at me & says "He is a Bragger" and starts talking about these guys at work that talk like that.
> 
> I am not saying He brags, so dont jump on me, anyone who is full of confidence and assurance of WHAT WORKS has the ability to come off this way. But I still found it very funny that he said that to me.


That's what every red-blooded 'women are gentle creatures who should be placed on a pedestal and revered' nice guy would also believe. It sounds arrogant, sexist, and disrespectful. I thought it too, way back in 08. What he had to say about behavior and attraction was antithetical to what I had been taught and believed about women and relationships. I don't think that BBW is any of those things. By his own admission he decided to make changes when his own marriage and sex life was sinking. I don't think that either he, nor MEM are here to score cool points. They talk about what worked for them, what they believe, and why they believe it. They are in a 20+ year marriages with a great sex life. I had a deteriorating 10 year marriage with a wife that decided to screw the handyman. 

I looked into what they were saying. As it turns out, lots of others were saying the same thing. I bought a pickup artist book and decided I had nothing to lose by implementing these behaviors. I was seeing someone at the time. Up to that point, I was being 'proper and respectable'. I was still waiting for queues from her that it was ok to 'go for it'. After 4 dates we were still at the peck on the cheek stage. We had date #5 after I read the book. I went for it. EVERYTHING changed. It was all I needed to be sold.


----------



## Deejo

cherrypie18 said:


> Made me think of the discovery channel, where they show how the female chooses who to mate with. It's always the male who either wins the fight, or has the biggest nest etc.
> 
> I don't think we're all that very different from animals, we just put a lot more thought into things and forget about our instincts. Consciousness is simply what separates us from the beasts.


Bad Touch - The Bloodhound Gang


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous,

Although I watch this thread with interest, you are correct as I have expressed that I am not quick to share the details of my own sexual relationship with my wife.

This is simply because it is ours and our alone, and my wife has expressed many times it is nothing in her interest to share what is ours. So that is why on details, even in anonymous marriage forums, I remain distant on details.

As well, nothing I share at this board is necessary for such details. For to be sure, the things I experience with my wife, are not going to be welcome with many other couples. 

I am not here to contribue to some erotic novel, or bdsm fantasy, or any of these other things which yes, are shadows of reality. 

And absolutely I prefer and expect reality, and so should every good man and woman reading at this forum, they should expect nothing less in this life that to truly pursue and discover their own happiness and bliss. 

Yes, there are experiences in my life even this very week and this very day, way beyond social acceptance, way beyond legal acceptance, and would be shocking or off putting to the many ladies and some men and/or the young people that read these posts.

And that would be a shame, as it would merely be a distraction to the real point of all this.

The point being, that attitude, actions, and behavior, these are what are needing to be in place in the proper context.

The details, the good men and women will fill in their own details, some less than, some greater than, any of the details that I could fill in and that is what is proper and beneficial.

I am on this forum, because last year as a part of my own reflection of 20 years married anniversary, I decided on a whim to see what the online forums were all about in regards to marriage and advice and other happiness.

Needless to say I was horrified to spend even a first few minutes of reading this website, of bad advice heaped on more bad advice, thread after thread, page after page! 

So that is why I was interested to create an acount, to share a glimpse here and there what is without disptue working, and hopefully to put out a few fires in the process where I saw nothing less than the equivalent of trying to put out a house fire by pouring on kerosene and dried wood and being absolutely astounded at the bad results.

So for your questions, the erotic or sensual lover?

Yes, both of course. 

And do not miss this, for the record, mostly in my mind and preference it is sensual. I have spent many hours to study Kama Sutra and embrace many elements of the philosophy and teachings, learning the power of intimacy, of creating arousal and enjoying orgasms "riding the wave" indeed, often without much actual touching at all with incredible results.

As well, when the time is needing, be sure I am not going to hold back to be aggresive, or to have shown at times very much what you have mentioned, hair pulling, wrestling, outright brutishness, etc etc, producing in my woman wild orgasm upon wild orgasm, indeed the most passionate and primal orgasms are this way. But know this is not going to be proper all the time, nor would it be proper anytime it is not embraced fully by myself and my wife, this aggresive side.

But the point is, this cause and effect is without dispute, when my woman has seen this side of me, and I have seen that side of her, this is not quickly forgotten between us. 

So this experience translate to sexual respect, and this respect spills out of the rest of the relationship, so in this way, outside the bedroom, the fitness tests for example, they are either non issues or quickly resolved mostly without much speaking.

So this is just what it is, not to bore or offend with the details, but to share the cause and effect of the actions and behaviors that any couple can choose to explore and create for themselves for their own happiness and bliss their own primal and passionate and erotic and sensual sexual relationships!


----------



## MEM2020

The proactive approach:

This whole cycle of sexual rejection and then ignoring your partner never happened to us. BUT we had a painful cycle that lasted a couple years. Two long painful years. I was skinny - and not edgy/driven. Perhaps a shrink would say I was mildly depressed. The lack of muscle mass plus the lack of edge KILLED her desire. While that was obvious at some level. I still insisted on sex once every 5 days or so. Not as in forcing her physically - I would never do that. I simply said "once every five days is the minimum frequency I will tolerate" full stop. Less is not acceptable.

And I don't say "not acceptable" unless I am dead serious. So "not acceptable" means there will be some clear and definitive consequence unless the situation is resolved in a way that I find tolerable. So she never questioned the 5 day rule. And fortunately even though her baseline desire level was impaired she was still able to "let me get her in the mood". And she was committed enough and RESPECTED me enough to do that. She was NOT "in love" with me at that time. And frankly that is on me, not her. 

Looking back she gets an A+ in commitment. And frankly I get a B in restraint. I actually wanted sex more often than that, but chose not to push, even though I could have successfully done so - because I knew what was happening and felt I needed to suck it up to. 

That said - even though I am in love with, and cannot imagine EVER divorcing my W. I absolutely am willing/able and practiced at detaching myself emotionally when she gets so far outside her swim lane that she is no longer even in the pool. And sexually well - she is keenly aware of my viewpoint. When she had pelvic inflammation for 2 months she got support, love and patience. I got lots of offers for alternative sexual entertainment from her and accepted about half of them. 

But were she to lose her desire for me - truly lose it - and not want to have sex. I would take a lover until she regained her desire - or have a lover open ended. The same option would be available to her in reverse. FWIW we have actually had this conversation - it was a "what do you think is fair" type discussion we had a few months ago purely because I was curious as to her viewpoint. Of course it was easy for her to agree with me as for the last 2 years she has been in love with me and can't imagine that changing. 

Some folks will say that I am not committed. That I don't really take my vows seriously if I have this view. I am fine with that. These are MY rules for ME and MY marriage. My W has right of first refusal on my body. Always has, always will. If she chooses to "pass" on her right, she forfeits the "right" to demand the total sexual exclusivity she currently enjoys. 

And ultimately this is the reverse logic that makes our marriage work like a hyper-extended honeymoon. Because there is that same flavor of behavioral fear/excitement you have in dating. Think about it - why do people behave so well when dating. They are afraid that if they treat their bf/gf poorly it will end. Entwined in that fear is a type of excitement that many/MOST people lose when they "catch/trap" their mate in a lifetime commitment. Neither of us ever tolerated that chronic and widespread disease of indifference. That "now that we are married no longer have to put effort into the relationship".

This isn't the "walking on eggshells" anxiety of "is he/she going to break up with me". We have our share of mistakes, arguments, tension. Those things are part of life with two strong willed people. But there is a gigantic chasm separating "mistakes" and choices. Saying something stupid is a mistake. Forgetting to run an errand - no problem. But a pattern of indifference to your partners needs, THAT is a choice. And soon as either of us starts doing that, the other notices. And after a short grace period the person getting deprioritized - starts to ratchet up their reaction. 

This is the "cat" model of interaction. My cat has 4 modes:
- CUTE: cuddly and purring
- WARNING: - he does this by firmly grabbing your hand/foot and holding it in place with his teeth. This doesn't hurt but it definitely gets your attention
- LAST CHANCE: he now places his claws - fully extended on your hand/foot - holding you in place. You can still defuse him fairly easily by rubbing his cheek. In which case he lets go.
- WE'RE ON: he inserts his claws into your flesh and rends

I would say his behavior mirrors our behavior with each other. Very clear, very deliberate. You know exactly where you stand at any point. "Not acceptable" is my version of "last chance". 




BigBadWolf said:


> SimplyAmorous,
> 
> Although I watch this thread with interest, you are correct as I have expressed that I am not quick to share the details of my own sexual relationship with my wife.
> 
> This is simply because it is ours and our alone, and my wife has expressed many times it is nothing in her interest to share what is ours. So that is why on details, even in anonymous marriage forums, I remain distant on details.
> 
> As well, nothing I share at this board is necessary for such details. For to be sure, the things I experience with my wife, are not going to be welcome with many other couples.
> 
> I am not here to contribue to some erotic novel, or bdsm fantasy, or any of these other things which yes, are shadows of reality.
> 
> And absolutely I prefer and expect reality, and so should every good man and woman reading at this forum, they should expect nothing less in this life that to truly pursue and discover their own happiness and bliss.
> 
> Yes, there are experiences in my life even this very week and this very day, way beyond social acceptance, way beyond legal acceptance, and would be shocking or off putting to the many ladies and some men and/or the young people that read these posts.
> 
> And that would be a shame, as it would merely be a distraction to the real point of all this.
> 
> The point being, that attitude, actions, and behavior, these are what are needing to be in place in the proper context.
> 
> The details, the good men and women will fill in their own details, some less than, some greater than, any of the details that I could fill in and that is what is proper and beneficial.
> 
> I am on this forum, because last year as a part of my own reflection of 20 years married anniversary, I decided on a whim to see what the online forums were all about in regards to marriage and advice and other happiness.
> 
> Needless to say I was horrified to spend even a first few minutes of reading this website, of bad advice heaped on more bad advice, thread after thread, page after page!
> 
> So that is why I was interested to create an acount, to share a glimpse here and there what is without disptue working, and hopefully to put out a few fires in the process where I saw nothing less than the equivalent of trying to put out a house fire by pouring on kerosene and dried wood and being absolutely astounded at the bad results.
> 
> So for your questions, the erotic or sensual lover?
> 
> Yes, both of course.
> 
> And do not miss this, for the record, mostly in my mind and preference it is sensual. I have spent many hours to study Kama Sutra and embrace many elements of the philosophy and teachings, learning the power of intimacy, of creating arousal and enjoying orgasms "riding the wave" indeed, often without much actual touching at all with incredible results.
> 
> As well, when the time is needing, be sure I am not going to hold back to be aggresive, or to have shown at times very much what you have mentioned, hair pulling, wrestling, outright brutishness, etc etc, producing in my woman wild orgasm upon wild orgasm, indeed the most passionate and primal orgasms are this way. But know this is not going to be proper all the time, nor would it be proper anytime it is not embraced fully by myself and my wife, this aggresive side.
> 
> But the point is, this cause and effect is without dispute, when my woman has seen this side of me, and I have seen that side of her, this is not quickly forgotten between us.
> 
> So this experience translate to sexual respect, and this respect spills out of the rest of the relationship, so in this way, outside the bedroom, the fitness tests for example, they are either non issues or quickly resolved mostly without much speaking.
> 
> So this is just what it is, not to bore or offend with the details, but to share the cause and effect of the actions and behaviors that any couple can choose to explore and create for themselves for their own happiness and bliss their own primal and passionate and erotic and sensual sexual relationships!


----------



## Trenton

So many airs of fill in the blank with whatever air you choose to display.

If we truly wanted to help one another we would be bluntly honest and yet even on a semi-anonymous forum we feel we must be careful with the words we choose. It is no wonder we struggle as couples and with ourselves.

I am an honest person by nature, deeply honest and deeply personal from the get go. I realize quickly it makes others uncomfortable. Many have told me I lack that editor most people have.

BBW you think that a man must be the dominant partner with a female being submissive. This is your claim to marriage fame. Yet, you are unwilling to go into details. It's hard for me to really decide what is going on without details, just as it is hard for me to decide if what you are saying is true or the ramblings of a hardcore male looking to create a pack of wolves.

In all honesty, I will say that as a woman I struggle with a desire to be heard and recognized as well as submissive with my husband. That's the crux of the issue for me. I have an innate desire to please but would also like to be considered as important and this is the balance couples need to see (in my opinion of course).

I will give you an honest example of this. My husband and I are throwing a Halloween party soon. It is for adults and we want it to be fun. I was debating over which costume I should buy. I came home with a Leg Avenue costume that was short and revealing. I thought it was a great time to feel sexy at a party for both my husband and for myself. I tried the costume on for my husband. This ended in unadulterated sex followed by a comment from him that made it clear he wouldn't want me to dress this way at a party where all of our adult friends and family would be. 

Now I happily submitted to the "dirty" sex with me playing a fairy tale character in a short skirt wanting to be dominated. It felt good and I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the immediate attention from my husband. Was there spankings involved...there were and since it was from a man that I adore it felt like a gift rather than a punishment. At the same time, afterwards, I felt controlled as I was annoyed I couldn't wear this costume for the Halloween party. 

I exchanged the costume for Snow White from the same maker and it is also rather racy but not as revealing. I tried it on with the same blissful reaction...besides considering buying stock in Leg Avenue costumes...I realized that women might underestimate their sexual power as we see ourselves as ourselves and far more multi-faceted than this alone.

My husband agreed that I could go as Snow White. He said it was still revealing but it would do. Fine. I am happy and he is happy. This works for us.

My point is, it's about compromise every step of the way. Both partners in whatever relations they have must feel as if they are getting what they want from the relationship.

My main problem with your gospel is that it is one sided. You advocate a clear dominance/submission role. This can't, nor should it, work for everyone. There are times when I am dominant and my husband is submissive. We both believe at our core that the other is worthy of worship.

What I am saying is that in order for anything to work between the sexes both sexes must be included, considered and respected. It is like anything in life. It is about balance.


----------



## greenpearl

Sounds like everybody is serious now!!!!!

I like all the posts above!!!!!!!

Everybody should read them!!!!!!!!

They are all good!!!!!!!!!!

Ha ha ha ha, you guys can keep on sharing sex details, I am going to spank my husband's butt and let him spank me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Trenton

Mem, never would I agree to sexual relations outside of our marriage. That is my deal breaker. I would look at my husband and all worship would dwindle away to nothing. If he can't be faithful in all of our up's and down's then I don't want to be with him on the up's or the down's. Again, this is me and this is him. He wouldn't tolerate it either. Sex has never been a problem for us at any stage of our marriage but if it is ever a problem and either one steps outside of the marriage we both recognize our deep, singular yet collective, connection would be gone.


----------



## greenpearl

You guys teach MEN to MAN UP and grow balls, it is important for their welfare. But please also teach them not to cheat, it is important for our welfare. 

Men, problems? Women, problems? 

Women, open your legs and let your men have some fun. It isn't a big deal. Better than them fishing else where. And don't crush your men's balls because what you get is nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And don't try those MMF, FFM, or GROUP, you are only going to burn your ass!!!!!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> But were she to lose her desire for me - truly lose it - and not want to have sex. I would take a lover until she regained her desire - or have a lover open ended. The same option would be available to her in reverse. FWIW we have actually had this conversation - it was a "what do you think is fair" type discussion we had a few months ago purely because I was curious as to her viewpoint. Of course it was easy for her to agree with me as for the last 2 years she has been in love with me and can't imagine that changing.
> 
> Some folks will say that I am not committed. That I don't really take my vows seriously if I have this view. I am fine with that. These are MY rules for ME and MY marriage. My W has right of first refusal on my body. Always has, always will. If she chooses to "pass" on her right, she forfeits the "right" to demand the total sexual exclusivity she currently enjoys.


 You know what, I am going to stick up for MEM here !:iagree: I too have had this conversation with MY husband. These days, with the way I feel, if he decided he was not "into" me & the sex dwindled down pathetically, I have as much told him I would NOT be able to handle this, I am very WEAK & most likely, in my desperation (as I won't beg) I would probably find myself a Lover. Again, this is NOT our situation, I can recall only 1 time in 21 yrs he was not "up" for having sex when I wanted him , so this is all talk. He does not feel the same as me (saying he would not take another) but he "accepts" that I feel this way, he understands it, and I guess it is not a threat to him as he feels the same as me, desiring a frequent sex life. 

All marraiges have rules, maybe some are not spoken but maybe they SHOULD BE, they might be UNacceptable to others, but is that really our concern. It is only our spouse who matters here. Not that I would share this with my Preacher mind you, but an anonymous forum, why not!! It truly IS how I feel and I bet many many do also, they just do not speak it out of their mouths or never come to this place- Thankfully -to know what they are capable of. 

Kinda like how BBW feels about what he & wife does in the bedroom- I personally would NEVER judge, he is greatly blessed to find a wife who LOVES what he LOVES & enjoys that WILD form of sexual play- that he fully admits others MAY have a problem with. Who are we? 

Getting back to what MEM said to his wife - Better to lay these things out on the table then blindly "assume" these things don't matter , find yourself in that situation & secretly cheat behind the others back- that is what you will most find time & time & time again on this forum. Weak men & women who can not acknowlege their weaknesses. Those who talk about all of this BEFORE hand & truly understand the WHY's behind our feelings, why we say these things, this is a Bless-id thing. We then KNOW our hand in the marriage, what our spouses NEED from us AND the consequences of taking this for granted. I simply couldn't agree more -with that approach (but it helps if your spouse is not a grudge holder & is humble & understanding) 


Me & my husband have other agreements that many would frown/disagree with >>> neither of us gaining too much weight (others will scream "you are shallow-that is not love!"), We go to a certain Strip club together occasionally (women will say "Are you out of your mind!), My husband does not mind me having GUY friends (many men would not allow this, my husband has never cared as I never gave him reason too). BUt in doing all these things, we have BOUNDARIES (much talked about), if he starts fantasing about some stripper over me, that will be the END of that form of entertainment. I allow this cause he is a doting ever faithful husband & not the obsessive type, and if I start fantasing about a male friend, that will also be THE END, as it should be. 



BigBadWolf said:


> Yes, there are experiences in my life even this very week and this very day, way beyond social acceptance, way beyond legal acceptance, and would be shocking or off putting to the many ladies and some men and/or the young people that read these posts.


 WOW - I absolutely KNEW you were an Erotic, a Tyrannosaurus Lover like Deejo said ! but darn, sounds like well beyond my imagination!! Thank you for sharing this bit of yourself with us. I have no problem with anything you say here , of coarse I am very intreged, but hey, so long as your wife is INTO this type of aggression, Good for you both!! We ought to all strive to do what turns each other on --always! 

Maybe you just LIVE out your sexual fantasies, whereas for the majority of us they only "reside in the mind". Even being a Dominant Erotic in the most normal sense is a problem for my husband, He knows I would LOVE for him to throw me down on the bed, push me up against the wall, all those Aggressive lusty moves that I mention in an earlier post, but he is not comfortable doing these things, he even went as far as saying it makes him think of Rape , stuff he has seen on Tv & says he would like to kill those men. Not sure what I am supposed to do with that! Thankfully I can remain content with my Sensual Lover. Strangely enough, He loves when I do those aggressive things to him. 




BigBadWolf said:


> So for your questions, the erotic or sensual lover?
> 
> Yes, both of course.
> 
> And do not miss this, for the record, mostly in my mind and preference it is sensual. I have spent many hours to study Kama Sutra and embrace many elements of the philosophy and teachings, learning the power of intimacy, of creating arousal and enjoying orgasms "riding the wave" indeed, often without much actual touching at all with incredible results..



I appreciate this as now I do not feel YOU judge the Sensual Lover, I really was getting the impression you did with some of the way you word things, and you having such a HIGH "Following" on this forum with men, I really didn't want to have a problem with you, as I have always enjoyed reading your posts. So I thank you for clarifying. 




Deejo said:


> I let her take the lead. Let me know when you are comfortable and ready - because I'm tired of being rejected and by being patient and understanding, you think you are being a great guy. She did nothing for the next 90 days, and I kept my mouth shut. It does a number on men. I don't think many women are, or want to be aware of how damaging consistently refusing sex is.



Well now you are a NEW MAN Deejo !! And this won't happen anymore, you have learned the secrets to a man's soul. And to his womans! Good for you, if these books can expose this kind of Hogwash in dealing with such situations, believe me, I am ALLLLLL for them. :smthumbup:

I asked my husband this morning, who in the world told you to do my dishes in hopes you will get more sex - he says he looked it up on the internet. I just laughed, I asked him if the article said you should 1st talk to your wife & state how you FEEL. I don’t know why he couldn't go there.  I do recall him joking with friends while I was there about being a NUN at times & me jokingly back "All men want is sex". I don’t know where my head was at in those days(kids , house, God). Really. But even he admits , I rarely outright denied him. RARELY. I can recall only once him ASKING me for a hand job out of desperation, and I was glad to do it. The point being, he didnt ask.  

I think Mem's approach would have darn well moved mountains for us - basically laying it on the line and saying what he NEEDED from me. But I will say, I was never like your wife as you described above, I personally could not go a week without dying for it myself, so my husband's wait was never more than 7 days (except for after having a baby, even then I never waited for the Doc's ok). He knew if he could wait it out, I would soon be ALL OVER HIM, I think me coming on to him made the experience more heavenly somehow, otherwise he felt he was bothering me (which he was not). I remember wondering about his sex drive, I used to think he would want his sleep MORE than me waking him up, but that was never the case. Funny thing is, Even then Physical touch was still my primary Love Language even back then, I wanted my back scratched every single night, he would also caress my hair while we watched movies for hours, I loved this-still do - but I never made the connection to how much I NEEDED this other physical touch till I hit my 40's. 

Thank you all for digging a little deeper into my personal questions here. Excuse us women for entering the Men's Cluibhouse.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you all for digging a little deeper into my personal questions here. Excuse us women for entering the Men's Cluibhouse.


Women are always welcome. Clothing optional, of course.


----------



## Trenton

Simply Amorous when you say: 



> These days, with the way I feel, if he decided he was not "into" me & the sex dwindled down pathetically, I have as much told him I would NOT be able to handle this, I am very WEAK & most likely, in my desperation (as I won't beg) I would probably find myself a Lover. Again, this is NOT our situation, I can recall only 1 time in 21 yrs he was not "up" for having sex when I wanted him , so this is all talk. He does not feel the same as me (saying he would not take another) but he "accepts" that I feel this way, he understands it, and I guess it is not a threat to him as he feels the same as me, desiring a frequent sex life.


Perhaps I am a romantic but the thought of other men being my lover grosses me out. It doesn't appeal to me on any level whatsoever. Maybe this is because I'm satisfied and never haven't been in our relationship, I'm not sure. I thought this was because of the strong bond between us. My husband very well might feel differently but it's doubtful he would tell me as I'd take it as a betrayal since I am so submerged in our relationship. I'm going to ask him tonight and see what he says.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Perhaps I am a romantic but the thought of other men being my lover grosses me out. It doesn't appeal to me on any level whatsoever. Maybe this is because I'm satisfied and never haven't been in our relationship, I'm not sure. I thought this was because of the strong bond between us. My husband very well might feel differently but it's doubtful he would tell me as I'd take it as a betrayal since I am so submerged in our relationship. I'm going to ask him tonight and see what he says.


You aren't there. By what I have read from your posts, you're not anywhere near these circumstances. And when you aren't in the midst of feeling rejected, and consequently questioning everything about your relationship, it can be tough to imagine.

So in effect, asking your husband is only setting you both up. You have already indicated that were he to answer "Yes, I would look for another lover if you neither desired me, nor wanted to have sex." you would feel betrayed.

It's about setting an expectation, not making a demand. You aren't telling your partner what they MUST do. You are stating what you WILL do should these particular circumstances ever arise.

What is so different about it from stating "If you were to cheat on me, I would leave you." You are making a declaration, not a demand.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> You aren't there. By what I have read from your posts, you're not anywhere near these circumstances. And when you aren't in the midst of feeling rejected, and consequently questioning everything about your relationship, it can be tough to imagine.
> 
> So in effect, asking your husband is only setting you both up. You have already indicated that were he to answer "Yes, I would look for another lover if you neither desired me, nor wanted to have sex." you would feel betrayed.
> 
> It's about setting an expectation, not making a demand. You aren't telling your partner what they MUST do. You are stating what you WILL do should these particular circumstances ever arise.
> 
> What is so different about it from stating "If you were to cheat on me, I would leave you." You are making a declaration, not a demand.


True because regardless of how horrible I imagine it to be, if he cheated on me, I would leave him. That is a condition. D'oh.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> True because regardless of how horrible I imagine it to be, if he cheated on me, I would leave him. That is a condition. D'oh.


And that's perfectly cool.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> True because regardless of how horrible I imagine it to be, if he cheated on me, I would leave him. That is a condition. D'oh.


 I agree with Deejo, I wouldn't ask given how you feel, if you will feel betrayed by his honest answer. I don't want my post to be the cause of that !! 

Ok, what if you denied him sex for 3 months straight, you knew you were doing this outright, but had little concern, after all, you was not feeling it. Then he cheated on you, would you not look to what you did the last 3 months at all? not even a little ? Many women do this and feel they did nothing wrong . I accually feel what their husbands did out of desperation is almost equal to what the wife has done over that long period of time, while he faces pleasing himself alone. That would get real old after awhile to someone who needs touch. And Especially if the man has made his desires known time & time again. If he has to almost 
rape his wife to get any, this just shouldn't be. He is weak. 

Again , I know this is NOT YOUR SITUATION, so dont worry about it. 

I recall reading a thread on this very forum about a year ago- in the Successful marraige board I believe, this man forgave his wife for cheating with a neighbor man for 10 years straight !! Something completely outragous and unthinkable to us. 

I was very very intreged by his story, what happened and how NOW they are greatly & deeply in love again after this pain. But noticed he did NOT go into great detail of his hand IN WHY she might have done this. And I knew in my heart, any good person can forgive more easy IF they know they might have caused some of the pain. So I took it upon myself, being ever so curious, to PM him and ask.....and as I suspected , He admitted he was not there for HER- for years on end. He was off being a Work a holic, rarely home, great provider and all of that, but could admit to NOT fullfilling her needs, I bet one of her love Languages was "Quality Time" , his probably not. 

And becaues of this fact (His hand in the breakdown and her hurt) He was ABLE to forgive her. He got ALOT of slack on this forum for his forgiving her & taking her back. All kinds of names were thrown at his wife, but this man stood up for her, he loves her, he changed his ways , she changed hers, she regrets what she did from her heart and all is good now. Surely not the typical cheating story, but when one's needs are NOT being met in the marraige. I really think the one who is not meeting them, or grossly neglecting them should have more forgiveness and understanding. 

I would not call that man a Sucker like many, I would call him Courageous for forgiving under those circumstances & if he & his wife is happy today, what a story to share !!


----------



## nice777guy

Great example SA. Wonder how many other marriages could be saved if people held themselves accountable for their part of the problems - whether its the betrayed or loyal spouse.

Too many fingers being pointed - not enough accountability.




SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with Deejo, I wouldn't ask given how you feel, if you will feel betrayed by his honest answer. I don't want my post to be the cause of that !!
> 
> Ok, what if you denied him sex for 3 months straight, you knew you were doing this outright, but had little concern, after all, you was not feeling it. Then he cheated on you, would you not look to what you did the last 3 months at all? not even a little ? Many women do this and feel they did nothing wrong . I accually feel what their husbands did out of desperation is almost equal to what the wife has done over that long period of time, while he faces pleasing himself alone. That would get real old after awhile to someone who needs touch. And Especially if the man has made his desires known time & time again. If he has to almost
> rape his wife to get any, this just shouldn't be. He is weak.
> 
> Again , I know this is NOT YOUR SITUATION, so dont worry about it.
> 
> I recall reading a thread on this very forum about a year ago- in the Successful marraige board I believe, this man forgave his wife for cheating with a neighbor man for 10 years straight !! Something completely outragous and unthinkable to us.
> 
> I was very very intreged by his story, what happened and how NOW they are greatly & deeply in love again after this pain. But noticed he did NOT go into great detail of his hand IN WHY she might have done this. And I knew in my heart, any good person can forgive more easy IF they know they might have caused some of the pain. So I took it upon myself, being ever so curious, to PM him and ask.....and as I suspected , He admitted he was not there for HER- for years on end. He was off being a Work a holic, rarely home, great provider and all of that, but could admit to NOT fullfilling her needs, I bet one of her love Languages was "Quality Time" , his probably not.
> 
> And becaues of this fact (His hand in the breakdown and her hurt) He was ABLE to forgive her. He got ALOT of slack on this forum for his forgiving her & taking her back. All kinds of names were thrown at his wife, but this man stood up for her, he loves her, he changed his ways , she changed hers, she regrets what she did from her heart and all is good now. Surely not the typical cheating story, but when one's needs are NOT being met in the marraige. I really think the one who is not meeting them, or grossly neglecting them should have more forgiveness and understanding.
> 
> I would not call that man a Sucker like many, I would call him Courageous for forgiving under those circumstances & if he & his wife is happy today, what a story to share !!


----------



## Trenton

Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of being unable to imagine our relationship as sexless and if it ever happened I would imagine it would be a physical condition or something out of our control that would cause it.

If I ever didn't have sex with my husband for 3 months and wasn't physically unable to then I think I must have fallen out of love with him and the end of our marriage had already begun rolling.

Why take on a lover though? Why not honestly end the marriage first and then take on a lover? I think my point is that if I'm in love then my desire for someone else is nil. If I have fallen out of love I'd want out for a chance to move on. Sex for me is nothing without deep, emotional connection.

I'll have the talk with my husband out of curiosity. I would feel betrayed but only briefly. I'd rather know the truth than not know at all. Feels weird to share intimate details on a forum but not bring it back to my husband. I inevitably always do. He and I had a long talk about what a big bad wolf is...haha. This came from a discussion over the dominance/submission big bad wolf advocates for and our roles/needs as men/women...that was an interesting convo! :rofl:


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Great example SA. Wonder how many other marriages could be saved if people held themselves accountable for their part of the problems - whether its the betrayed or loyal spouse.
> 
> Too many fingers being pointed - not enough accountability.


Most marriages, I would wager.
Even if accountability didn't take the form of ownership and reconciliation, it would make dissolving the marriage far less acrimonious.


----------



## Deejo

You are correlating sex with love. Many people don't. To be in a loving relationship, I require sex. But I don't require love to be in a sexual relationship - not anymore.

Why take on a lover? Because your marriage has become a functional business arrangement instead of an emotional and intimate refuge. You aren't getting those things from your spouse. But ... you have children, substantial common assets, and otherwise have a working relationship. Is it practical? Of course not, no more practical than staying with a spouse that has no intention of meeting your needs.

The subtle point that SA is making, is that denying your partner sex is no less a betrayal than having it with someone else. They are the same - and I agree. Come back to the bedroom and I will stop going to someone elses. That in a nutshell generally sums up the story that SA alluded to.

Here is the question to ask your husband:
"If I told you that I no longer wanted to have sex with you, felt no desire for you, and will generally be annoyed and angry if you even bring up the subject, could you accept that? And if not, what would you do?"

There is no 'baiting or leading' with that question.



Trenton said:


> Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of being unable to imagine our relationship as sexless and if it ever happened I would imagine it would be a physical condition or something out of our control that would cause it.
> 
> If I ever didn't have sex with my husband for 3 months and wasn't physically unable to then I think I must have fallen out of love with him and the end of our marriage had already begun rolling.
> 
> Why take on a lover though? Why not honestly end the marriage first and then take on a lover? I think my point is that if I'm in love then my desire for someone else is nil. If I have fallen out of love I'd want out for a chance to move on. Sex for me is nothing without deep, emotional connection.
> 
> I'll have the talk with my husband out of curiosity. I would feel betrayed but only briefly. I'd rather know the truth than not know at all. Feels weird to share intimate details on a forum but not bring it back to my husband. I inevitably always do. He and I had a long talk about what a big bad wolf is...haha. This came from a discussion over the dominance/submission big bad wolf advocates for and our roles/needs as men/women...that was an interesting convo! :rofl:


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> You are correlating sex with love. Many people don't. To be in a loving relationship, I require sex. But I don't require love to be in a sexual relationship - not anymore.
> 
> Why take on a lover? Because your marriage has become a functional business arrangement instead of an emotional and intimate refuge. You aren't getting those things from your spouse. But ... you have children, substantial common assets, and otherwise have a working relationship. Is it practical? Of course not, no more practical than staying with a spouse that has no intention of meeting your needs.
> 
> The subtle point that SA is making, is that denying your partner sex is no less a betrayal than having it with someone else. They are the same - and I agree. Come back to the bedroom and I will stop going to someone elses. That in a nutshell generally sums up the story that SA alluded to.


I see what you are saying. I guess all of my sexual needs are linked to my emotional needs and so I can't separate the two hence the difference. If I were to have sex with someone outside of our marriage I would be in love with them and the marriage would be over.

I see your point though. It takes two, every step of the way, to work.

If your wife/husband had a physical ailment that prevented them from having sex. Say a man had prostate cancer and could not have an erection after treatment (happened to my uncle recently) would the woman still be justified in going to find a lover? Doesn't this defeat the entire marriage vows?

In other words, what if it truly isn't the other person's fault? Shouldn't they be able to rely on the for better or for worse?


----------



## Trenton

> Here is the question to ask your husband:
> "If I told you that I no longer wanted to have sex with you, felt no desire for you, and will generally be annoyed and angry if you even bring up the subject, could you accept that? And if not, what would you do?"


Ouch! I wouldn't blame him for moving on in this case though as I will be the one who had betrayed him first. I will ask him.


----------



## Deejo

There's your unconditional love, test. 
And in the event these circumstances seem extreme to you, I assure you they are real. They are the circumstances I was dealing with.



Trenton said:


> Ouch! I wouldn't blame him for moving on in this case though as I will be the one who had betrayed him first. I will ask him.



That's why God gave us tongues, and variable speed vibrators.



Trenton said:


> If your wife/husband had a physical ailment that prevented them from having sex. Say a man had prostate cancer and could not have an erection after treatment (happened to my uncle recently) would the woman still be justified in going to find a lover? Doesn't this defeat the entire marriage vows?
> 
> In other words, what if it truly isn't the other person's fault? Shouldn't they be able to rely on the for better or for worse?


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> There's your unconditional love, test.
> And in the event these circumstances seem extreme to you, I assure you they are real. They are the circumstances I was dealing with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's why God gave us tongues, and variable speed vibrators.


Sucks, you deserve better and get your point, intimacy doesn't necessarily equal to sex.

Unconditional very well might be impossible but I wish it wasn't.


----------



## greenpearl

I recall reading a thread on this very forum about a year ago- in the Successful marraige board I believe, this man forgave his wife for cheating with a neighbor man for 10 years straight !! Something completely outragous and unthinkable to us.

I was very very intreged by his story, what happened and how NOW they are greatly & deeply in love again after this pain. But noticed he did NOT go into great detail of his hand IN WHY she might have done this. And I knew in my heart, any good person can forgive more easy IF they know they might have caused some of the pain. So I took it upon myself, being ever so curious, to PM him and ask.....and as I suspected , He admitted he was not there for HER- for years on end. He was off being a Work a holic, rarely home, great provider and all of that, but could admit to NOT fullfilling her needs, I bet one of her love Languages was "Quality Time" , his probably not.

And becaues of this fact (His hand in the breakdown and her hurt) He was ABLE to forgive her. He got ALOT of slack on this forum for his forgiving her & taking her back. All kinds of names were thrown at his wife, but this man stood up for her, he loves her, he changed his ways , she changed hers, she regrets what she did from her heart and all is good now. Surely not the typical cheating story, but when one's needs are NOT being met in the marraige. I really think the one who is not meeting them, or grossly neglecting them should have more forgiveness and understanding.



Sounds like my husband's uncle.

Yesterday, I asked my husband what he would do if his wife didn't want sex. He said he would be nice to her, and find out why she wouldn't want sex. He would hold her and understand her. He said being Macho can't win a woman over, it would drive her away even further. He doesn't have this problem, so it is easy for him to say. But being seven years with him, I know he is a very understanding, caring, and loving man. 

For sex, we are both erotic lovers and sensual lovers. Depends on who wants to come. When he wants to come, he just takes me whatever way he wants, never violent though, he is a gentleman. We never tried SM or toys, we just have passionate sex, I like it when he fxxxx me hard. When I want to come, he just lies there and let me have him, I get on top of him and wiggle wiggle wiggle, achieve my orgasm, it is the only way I can come since I come clitoral. 

There are many types of men women like. 

I love my husband!!!!! He has balls but he is not macho.


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what, I am going to stick up for MEM here !:iagree: I too have had this conversation with MY husband. These days, with the way I feel, if he decided he was not "into" me & the sex dwindled down pathetically, I have as much told him I would NOT be able to handle this, I am very WEAK & most likely, in my desperation (as I won't beg) I would probably find myself a Lover. Again, this is NOT our situation, I can recall only 1 time in 21 yrs he was not "up" for having sex when I wanted him , so this is all talk. He does not feel the same as me (saying he would not take another) but he "accepts" that I feel this way, he understands it, and I guess it is not a threat to him as he feels the same as me, desiring a frequent sex life.


In some way or another, it is prudent for all good men and women to communicate this simple truth, either subtle or outright, their expectations concerning sex.

To do so automatically ratchets up respect and attraction, for nothing makes a man or woman lazy like complaceny. To take away all motivation to increase or maintain sexual attraction, then laziness will set in, in appearances and behavior and finally attitude. This is falling out of love to so many people.

This is why I strongly advice against any "unconditional love" talk, especially from a man to a woman. A woman may want to express this to her man, that is fine for his ego or whatever.

But when a man expresses this to his woman, watch out!

Instead of making her feel safe and secure, instead it plants a seed of doubt, of "why is volunteering to give up being a man without a fight? There must be something wrong with this man".

All good men reading this, avoid at all cost planting this seed of "unconditional love". 

Instead, be such a good man that is worthy of MANY conditions!

For when a woman FEELS she is desired by this kind of man, good things are happening!  





> Kinda like how BBW feels about what he & wife does in the bedroom- I personally would NEVER judge, he is greatly blessed to find a wife who LOVES what he LOVES & enjoys that WILD form of sexual play- that he fully admits others MAY have a problem with. Who are we?


This is good that this is understood.

I am not here to share my sex life, that is not even the point.

Even spanking, know that unless that was so easy the gateway to exploring so many sensual and sexual dynamics, I would not even mention it. 

But it is too useful a discovery tool for how a woman reacts to dominance, for me to not shout it from the rooftops would be a crime. 



> WOW - I absolutely KNEW you were an Erotic, a Tyrannosaurus Lover like Deejo said ! but darn, sounds like well beyond my imagination!! Thank you for sharing this bit of yourself with us. I have no problem with anything you say here , of coarse I am very intreged,


There is not much I explore or express in aggression that is beyond the desires of most any man. 

That is what I want to communicate most of all, these things I speak of, they are not unobtainable, but are there for the experience of any good man when he realizes that his fear and timidity and repressing so many of his own desires is a hindrance to BOTH his own happiness and bliss and the happiness and bliss of his woman. 




> but hey, so long as your wife is INTO this type of aggression, Good for you both!! We ought to all strive to do what turns each other on --always!


My woman responds to aggresive sex like most any woman would, passionately and primaly leading to many orgasms often one after the other.

Whether she was into it, not at all would she be open to discussing these things with words (she still doesn't).

But know that it was her behavior and actions, pushing and hinting and suggesting over time that ratcheted up more and more, leading to our relationship now. 

And know as well, when she is needing or expecting me to behave in this aggressive manners, and I do not, heaps of resentment and rejection she felt, to the point of tears at times. 

So, years ago yes, it was to the point of, I needed as a man to stop playing and pretending and not the nice guy anymore and go for it, and then the rest you need to use your imagination. 

And then it was the whole new world opening up, inside and outside the bedroom, dominance, submission, respect, no insecurity, no mood swings, I felt like a man, she felt like a woman, not even knowing how to put it in words, just experiencing it.

Yes, I was as if "click", the relationship just fell into place.

So now, in my sexual and emotional connection to my wife, to see these other things out of place, it is almost without so much debate or analyzing, to simply see this piece needs to go here, that piece is missing, stop this, start that, and the sex become more and more frequent to the point of behaving like teenagers again, only much much darker and deeper and primal. 


So understand, I was at some point in time years ago, as much the nice guy as some on this board. I am not here to dismiss or judge sensual sexual activity, but also realize that hardly is any problem.

Most men have the nice guy stuff down. I do not need to help on that. 

But nice guy without any edge, or darkness, or dominance, this is not even less than half the story or potential that the relationship could be.



> Maybe you just LIVE out your sexual fantasies, whereas for the majority of us they only "reside in the mind". Even being a Dominant Erotic in the most normal sense is a problem for my husband, He knows I would LOVE for him to throw me down on the bed, push me up against the wall, all those Aggressive lusty moves that I mention in an earlier post,


You are simply being a woman. 

Good men everywhere, read and understand these things!




> but he is not comfortable doing these things, he even went as far as saying it makes him think of Rape , stuff he has seen on Tv & says he would like to kill those men.


Two problems here, and of course with anything regarding rape emotions run high and confusion is likely, so I will attempt to be plain speaking.

First, he is displaying as the same as any "nice guy" reacts to dominance, by saying he would never be that way, hoping to win the approval of his woman by showing how nice and safe and non threatening he is. 

"Non threatening", while obviouisly this has social benefits etc etc, is not sexual attraction. 

Good men, imagine a woman saying she won't cheat because she is too ugly. This is the same as saying a "nice guy" is non threatening because he "would never do that" (speaking of dominance, not rape). 

The "nice guy", always to understand it is a mask. It is a form of dishonesty, and a woman at her core will not be sexually attracted to dishonesty. 

Now the second issue, the confusion surrounding aggressive sex and rape.

Many "nice guys" are not aggressive sexually because they don't want to be confused with rapists. 


Listen, men, to think these kind of things, and even say them, you cannot imagine how naive and disrespectful it is to a woman to hear this.

For a woman who has experienced rape, how much more so I cannot imagine.

It shows that you do not understand how a rape affects a woman, and it shows that you think she is not smart enough to tell the difference.

I am a man, so I know how men think, so I will be blunt.

1. Rape to a woman is NOT sex. Period. Read this again. And again. Do not read anything more until to have read this many times and it sinks in.

2. Rape, to a woman, is a physicall assault to her sexual organs. Torture. The emotional upheaval is FAR FAR more devasting to her than the physical experience. So much farther than the two do not even compare. 

3. A woman, when she is emotionally connected to her man, for her man to express dominance and aggressive sex, to her this is bliss! For it allows her to experience, in her core and primal and feminie self, that she is so much the woman to unleash this from her man, that her security and sexual feelings and self esteem and all these others things will SKYROCKET! And she will LOVE and ADORE the good man that unleashes these feelings in her!



Good men, if nothing else sinks in, understand these things. Do not confuse dominance and aggression in sexual areas with the cowardly act of rape. 

These are not the same, and your woman is not going to confuse her bold, confident, dominant good man with the coward rapist.





> Not sure what I am supposed to do with that! Thankfully I can remain content with my Sensual Lover. Strangely enough, He loves when I do those aggressive things to him.


All men fantasize about these things.

He is holding back, because he doesn't want to be confused with a rapist coward.

Find subtle ways to show he has nothing to worry about.


----------



## sisters359

bbw said


> If a man gives a woman everything she says she wants, becomes the nice guy, helps with the housework, compromises on his own career, helps with the kids, and still his woman ends up bored, full of angst, taking depression medication, no sex, nagging, and then from the blue ends up having a full blown PA with her boss, to most men why this happens is somewhat confusing.


This quotation highlights the problem I see in the arguments about what constitutes a "nice guy."

"Giving a woman everything she wants" is the problem--NOT doing housework, making career choices that support family life, or doing his fair share with the kids (who are, after all, just as much his responsibility as hers). "Giving a woman everything she wants" usually means, having no backbone, refusing to take a stand, and letting the FEAR of being left alone guide his every decision. 

If a man does housework or childcare b/c he is trying to be a nice guy--not because he has a deep conviction it is essential to true parnership--then he does it out of weakness, not strength. If he REFUSES to do housework, etc., b/c he thinks it is "unmanly," then he is equally weak--in the clutch of outdated AND historically inaccurate stereotypes. 

I know men who do every bit as much at home as their wives, who do it as a matter of course, who never "help" but rather, assume responsibility. And they do not let their wives walk all over them. They know as much as she does about the family's needs, so they will take a stand to defend their position in a disagreement--not "bow" to her b/c she is female, or out of fear of making her angry. They are married to women who are just the same--able to recognize that femaleness does not give some instintive right to more power over home and children, able to recognize and value logical discourse. Such couples rarely reach a critical stalemate b/c they have such deep respect, as well as love and lust, for each other. 

Seeing women, as a group, as more emotional and naturally "submissive," is inherently sexist--because you are classifying them by their sex. Women get called "more emotional" when, in fact, all they tend to do (because it is more socially acceptable) is EXPRESS their feelings more openly. Men have just as many feelings as women (we are the same species, after all), although men are socialized to express their emotions less freely and, when they do, to express them in forms of aggression (anger, particularly). 

Let's not confuse socially-guided behaviors with biology. That goes for testosterone, too. More T makes one horny (lots of women who have been pregnant with boys can attest to that). Our society teaches people how to channel extra energy; we do not have an "instinct" that tells us to weep rather than rage (if it was instinct, it would be seen 100% of the time with no exceptions). 

We have started to leave behind a world in which women and men were assumed to have certain characteristics by virtue of their biology. Historical and cross-cultural studies have demonstrated, again and again, the falseness of such claims--behaviors assumed to be "inherent" to female physiology, for example, were absent in different times/places. The logical conclusion, then, is that those behaviors were culturally specific and people were socialized into culturally acceptable behaviors--ie, it wasn't biology. 

So if you think your problem was in being a "nice guy," then think again. Maybe you just need to understand that being "nice" doesn't mean being spineless. And it certainly does not mean being "p*ssy-whipped." Have enough confidence to believe that you are worthwhile and desirable, and act that way. THAT'S attractive!


----------



## greenpearl

Please don't fight and argue. 

We are all here trying to help, not to take shot at each other. 

Some women like powerful men, some women like gentlemen. Some women like rich life style, some women like simple life style, we are all different. If there is cure for mankind's problems, this world will be peaceful and beautiful.

I do think men should stand up for themselves and don't spoil their women too much. The more you give in, the more she wants. Vice versa. 

But the sad part here is, when a man isn't happy in a marriage, he leaves, he can still support himself financially. But if a woman is in a sad marriage, I mean she had been a good woman all along, she doesn't have much bargain power. She is financially dependent.

Read so many posts, man want to leave, but they don't need to worry about money. How about women, if they divorce, they have to start worrying about money right away, especially if they have kids. 

A lot of women are stuck in unhappy marriages too, their men are just irresponsible as what you can call, I don't want to make a list, they are stuck, they are unhappy, they are drying without sex. What can they do? 

Life is not easy, if you want something easy, don't become human.


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## SimplyAmorous

BigBadWolf said:


> All men fantasize about these things.
> 
> He is holding back, because he doesn't want to be confused with a rapist coward.
> 
> Find subtle ways to show he has nothing to worry about.


Oh Big Bad Wolf, I was SOOOO afraid this would be the result of me talking about these things!! I suspected it would come to this again. 

Listen, I can NOT stress to you enough, I simply can not, you do not know me of coarse, but IF you did and you KNEW my husband, you knew us together, seen our relationship, YOU would seriously believe & trust that I have done EVERYTHING possible, beyond the normal means for allowing my husband to "be himself, come out of his shell" -that he indeed would have NOTHING to worry about - with me. Without knowing me personally, I guess you won't believe it. But what can I say, it is simply not that! He is who he is. He is not hiding anything from me. I do not feel he has this fear at all. And he would NEVER feel that I would see him as a rapist. Never. 

It really isn't these things. 

And NO, he does NOT have these kinds of fantasies, not the Dominant kind you speak of. A while back, I have started a whole thread about Men preferring Dominant women, these are more his fantasies. I have been with this man for 28 yrs , I know HIM inside & out. Now what I dont want to hear from you is that my husband is some kind of freak. I probably wanted assurance from other men on this forum, that this is "normal "-- BECAUSE OF YOUR POSTS! 

I know this, when we 1st started watching porn together, one of the BIGGEST turn ons for him was Jennie Jameson all dressed in Red in some Dominatrix outfit with a whip or something. I am sorry, this is what "does it" for my husband!! I have asked, we have shared, we talk about it all, When it comes to fantasys, he has little to say, he just mentions Strippers and he says I fullfill them all. Maybe if he wasn't having SO much sex, he would have more, I don't know! It is claimed that the "sexually starved" usually write the best Romance novels. Got to be something to that, their imaginations/fantasys are burning for release. 

Trust me, I want MORE of an answer from him, I fish for it, he is not one to close up-push me away, he tries but in honesty he simply claims he does not feel that way. 

Listen, I know your intentions are well, but it is NOT going to do ME any good to believe He is inferior to other men, or for me to try to change what HE IS, what turns him on. For a time, I tried , was that ever beating my head against the wall !! I won't go there again. 


MEN, they simply are not all the same, maybe the majority, but sexually, their can be some outside the box. I mean, Heck, we have gay men, I know they do not have the same fantasies!! I know he is NOT gay by any means. 

I mean, he may have smaller , less dominate fantasies but not these "dark primal aggressive" kind you speak of. 

I know you won't agree, but I still feel that hormonally, his having low normal testosterone levels is the answer behind this. Testosterone promotes Fantasy and Aggression & Sexual desire. This is simply fact. 

Now here is MY bet.... but I doubt I will ever get to see the comparison -as he may never accually NEED Testosterone Treatment. But if we took an inventory of his sexaul thoughts, fantasys & how HOT his desire is NOW --then put him on Testosterone injections or patches, I bet you anything in this world, his fantasies will take a whole new realm that would even surprise him, his Desire will be MORE OFTEN AND MORE EROTIC in nature, he would even become aggressive in a way I never seen before. I have heard both men & women talk about the changes after treatment, with some new benefits sexually - but unwanted benefits in aggression. So I know this to be truth. 

Women who do not fantasize also are probably lacking in testosterone in compared to Nymphos. 

Why I am so hellbent on you accepting this is beyond me, I guess I enjoy the challenge- and that you are Mr Big Bad Wolf. My husband is still a "Good" man despite this thing you can not understand.


----------



## MEM2020

SA,
I think you and I are of like mind on this topic. As for what I said to my W that day about getting a GF, had she pulled a Trenton and tried to give me the "I don't think I will ever be able to forgive you for saying that" I would have simply responded by telling her I was just giving her an honest and definitive explanation of what was going to happen. If she couldn't get "past" my telling her that I was ok with taking a lover if she didn't want to "play" anymore I would have just shrugged. Not my problem. I didn't initiate the conversation and I don't have it in me to sneak around. Not my style. 

And as I have said before her comment was made "out of the blue". Meaning we had been having frequent (and I thought mutually enjoyable) sex up until a day or two before her statement that she did not desire me. 

As for the folks who say "well if you are going to do THAT then you should divorce" I have an answer that may or may not make sense. I promised my father in-law on my wedding day that I would take good care of his daughter. He was an incredible guy. I fully intend to continue making good on that promise. So I would not divorce her. If she chose to shut off sex and then divorce me for taking a lover, that would be 100 percent on her. 

Really though she knows all this. I am 100 percent certain that if I had said "well if you stop having sex with me, I am filing for divorce" THAT would have been a far, far more hurtful thing to her. 







SimplyAmorous said:


> You know what, I am going to stick up for MEM here !:iagree: I too have had this conversation with MY husband. These days, with the way I feel, if he decided he was not "into" me & the sex dwindled down pathetically, I have as much told him I would NOT be able to handle this, I am very WEAK & most likely, in my desperation (as I won't beg) I would probably find myself a Lover. Again, this is NOT our situation, I can recall only 1 time in 21 yrs he was not "up" for having sex when I wanted him , so this is all talk. He does not feel the same as me (saying he would not take another) but he "accepts" that I feel this way, he understands it, and I guess it is not a threat to him as he feels the same as me, desiring a frequent sex life.
> 
> All marraiges have rules, maybe some are not spoken but maybe they SHOULD BE, they might be UNacceptable to others, but is that really our concern. It is only our spouse who matters here. Not that I would share this with my Preacher mind you, but an anonymous forum, why not!! It truly IS how I feel and I bet many many do also, they just do not speak it out of their mouths or never come to this place- Thankfully -to know what they are capable of.
> 
> Kinda like how BBW feels about what he & wife does in the bedroom- I personally would NEVER judge, he is greatly blessed to find a wife who LOVES what he LOVES & enjoys that WILD form of sexual play- that he fully admits others MAY have a problem with. Who are we?
> 
> Getting back to what MEM said to his wife - Better to lay these things out on the table then blindly "assume" these things don't matter , find yourself in that situation & secretly cheat behind the others back- that is what you will most find time & time & time again on this forum. Weak men & women who can not acknowlege their weaknesses. Those who talk about all of this BEFORE hand & truly understand the WHY's behind our feelings, why we say these things, this is a Bless-id thing. We then KNOW our hand in the marriage, what our spouses NEED from us AND the consequences of taking this for granted. I simply couldn't agree more -with that approach (but it helps if your spouse is not a grudge holder & is humble & understanding)
> 
> 
> Me & my husband have other agreements that many would frown/disagree with >>> neither of us gaining too much weight (others will scream "you are shallow-that is not love!"), We go to a certain Strip club together occasionally (women will say "Are you out of your mind!), My husband does not mind me having GUY friends (many men would not allow this, my husband has never cared as I never gave him reason too). BUt in doing all these things, we have BOUNDARIES (much talked about), if he starts fantasing about some stripper over me, that will be the END of that form of entertainment. I allow this cause he is a doting ever faithful husband & not the obsessive type, and if I start fantasing about a male friend, that will also be THE END, as it should be.
> 
> 
> 
> WOW - I absolutely KNEW you were an Erotic, a Tyrannosaurus Lover like Deejo said ! but darn, sounds like well beyond my imagination!! Thank you for sharing this bit of yourself with us. I have no problem with anything you say here , of coarse I am very intreged, but hey, so long as your wife is INTO this type of aggression, Good for you both!! We ought to all strive to do what turns each other on --always!
> 
> Maybe you just LIVE out your sexual fantasies, whereas for the majority of us they only "reside in the mind". Even being a Dominant Erotic in the most normal sense is a problem for my husband, He knows I would LOVE for him to throw me down on the bed, push me up against the wall, all those Aggressive lusty moves that I mention in an earlier post, but he is not comfortable doing these things, he even went as far as saying it makes him think of Rape , stuff he has seen on Tv & says he would like to kill those men. Not sure what I am supposed to do with that! Thankfully I can remain content with my Sensual Lover. Strangely enough, He loves when I do those aggressive things to him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate this as now I do not feel YOU judge the Sensual Lover, I really was getting the impression you did with some of the way you word things, and you having such a HIGH "Following" on this forum with men, I really didn't want to have a problem with you, as I have always enjoyed reading your posts. So I thank you for clarifying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well now you are a NEW MAN Deejo !! And this won't happen anymore, you have learned the secrets to a man's soul. And to his womans! Good for you, if these books can expose this kind of Hogwash in dealing with such situations, believe me, I am ALLLLLL for them. :smthumbup:
> 
> I asked my husband this morning, who in the world told you to do my dishes in hopes you will get more sex - he says he looked it up on the internet. I just laughed, I asked him if the article said you should 1st talk to your wife & state how you FEEL. I don’t know why he couldn't go there.  I do recall him joking with friends while I was there about being a NUN at times & me jokingly back "All men want is sex". I don’t know where my head was at in those days(kids , house, God). Really. But even he admits , I rarely outright denied him. RARELY. I can recall only once him ASKING me for a hand job out of desperation, and I was glad to do it. The point being, he didnt ask.
> 
> I think Mem's approach would have darn well moved mountains for us - basically laying it on the line and saying what he NEEDED from me. But I will say, I was never like your wife as you described above, I personally could not go a week without dying for it myself, so my husband's wait was never more than 7 days (except for after having a baby, even then I never waited for the Doc's ok). He knew if he could wait it out, I would soon be ALL OVER HIM, I think me coming on to him made the experience more heavenly somehow, otherwise he felt he was bothering me (which he was not). I remember wondering about his sex drive, I used to think he would want his sleep MORE than me waking him up, but that was never the case. Funny thing is, Even then Physical touch was still my primary Love Language even back then, I wanted my back scratched every single night, he would also caress my hair while we watched movies for hours, I loved this-still do - but I never made the connection to how much I NEEDED this other physical touch till I hit my 40's.
> 
> Thank you all for digging a little deeper into my personal questions here. Excuse us women for entering the Men's Cluibhouse.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> Please don't fight and argue.
> 
> We are all here trying to help, not to take shot at each other.


 I must have missed the shot. Greenpearl, I do not see any of this as arguring at all, or fighting. It is simply learning. I absolutely LOVE debate, or I should call it a challenge to the mind. I love to hear others opionions, hear their stories, even when I might not agree, sometimes I want to read those ones MORE so, so I can add something , even if very small, to the conversation to bring another persceptive. This is all good!! 

I think we are all learning here, not fighting. 

What bothers you, I am afraid -I ENJOY!!


----------



## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> I must have missed the shot. Greenpearl, I do not see any of this as arguring at all, or fighting. It is simply learning. I absolutely LOVE debate, or I should call it a challenge to the mind. I love to hear others opionions, hear their stories, even when I might not agree, sometimes I want to read those ones MORE so, so I can add something , even if very small, to the conversation to bring another persceptive. This is all good!!
> 
> I think we are all learning here, not fighting.
> 
> What bothers you, I am afraid -I ENJOY!!




As long as you guys are having fun!!!

Debating with men is fun!!!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Sister359,

As usualy, you type out much facts and truth I agree with, with only a point or two in contention between us.

For instance, to say a "nice guy" is these things:



sisters359 said:


> "Giving a woman everything she wants" is the problem--NOT doing housework, making career choices that support family life, or doing his fair share with the kids (who are, after all, just as much his responsibility as hers). "Giving a woman everything she wants" usually means, having no backbone, refusing to take a stand, and letting the FEAR of being left alone guide his every decision.


And these things:



> If a man does housework or childcare b/c he is trying to be a nice guy--not because he has a deep conviction it is essential to true parnership--then he does it out of weakness, not strength.


Are correct. 

Then I see something like this:



> If he REFUSES to do housework, etc., b/c he thinks it is "unmanly," then he is equally weak--in the clutch of outdated AND historically inaccurate stereotypes.


Which is only a half truth, combined with some notion of being "outdated" or something that I assume means something to you.

Outdated or not, there is nothing, NOTHING sexually attractive to a woman to see her man behaving as another woman, or for a man to see a woman trying to behave as a man.




> Seeing women, as a group, as more emotional and naturally "submissive," is inherently sexist--because you are classifying them by their sex.


So? :scratchhead:



> Let's not confuse socially-guided behaviors with biology.


If we were to do that, we would have no need for marriage help forums as these. 



> We have started to leave behind a world in which women and men were assumed to have certain characteristics by virtue of their biology.


Perhaps a world where divorce rates climb to over 50%, and that's not considering the many sexually negligent relationships where one or more of the spouses are miserable and unwilling to seperate. 

A world where a man is afraid or shamed to be a man, and those that do this shaming are applauded. 

A world poisoned by a social labyrinth of hoops created by feminist propagandists to try to concoct a twisted self-fulfilling prophecy that men are either outdated cavemen or a spineless bumbling oafs that exist for no other reason than to serve women.

To such a world, thanks but no thanks. 

I'll stick with the reality of my world.

A world where both men and women feel free to express themselves and speak openly about themselves, where ideas stand or fall based on effectiveness, not whether a man or woman is doing the speaking.

A world where a woman is not ashamed to be a woman, to let down her defenses, because there is not the need to pretend to be a man. 

A world where the good man is free to pursue his dreams and desires, to not have to navigate inhospitable waters of a social construct openly hostile to him simply because he has a penis. To all good men, I encourage you to never feed such a construct, but to avoid it, ignore it, and pursue and find your bliss despite it!

For we know that a woman will test her man.

The man that passes these test, for such a man has earned the respect and attraction of his woman.

The man that fails these tests, a woman will seeth contempt for this man, and resent such a man for being weak.

These are " fitness tests ", or also called " $h!t tests ".

So to understand this, and apply to a social construct, is to understand what we call Feminism, including all it's insidious forms, and how to deal with it as it arises now and then in your own life.





> So if you think your problem was in being a "nice guy," then think again. Maybe you just need to understand that being "nice" doesn't mean being spineless. And it certainly does not mean being "p*ssy-whipped." Have enough confidence to believe that you are worthwhile and desirable, and act that way. THAT'S attractive!


Exactly well put. The good man boldly and confidently expressing dominance is attractive to a woman.

Never, I mean NEVER buy into a notion that the solution to being a "nice guy" is to become a "nicer guy" !!!


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh Big Bad Wolf, I was SOOOO afraid this would be the result of me talking about these things!! I suspected it would come to this again.
> 
> Listen, I can NOT stress to you enough, I simply can not, you do not know me of coarse, but IF you did and you KNEW my husband, you knew us together, seen our relationship, YOU would seriously believe & trust that I have done EVERYTHING possible, beyond the normal means for allowing my husband to "be himself, come out of his shell" -that he indeed would have NOTHING to worry about - with me. Without knowing me personally, I guess you won't believe it. But what can I say, it is simply not that! He is who he is. He is not hiding anything from me. I do not feel he has this fear at all. And he would NEVER feel that I would see him as a rapist. Never.
> 
> It really isn't these things.


I do want to be insulting, so I understand and will type this out plainly, that you know yourself and your husband far better than anyone else in this world and I do not presume to know anything of your scenario that you do not know.

I only can share of my perspective, based on my own experience and lifetime.

And now, leaving the road well travelled, and venturing into hypothetical thinking concerning your scenario, I will throw these out as suggestions.

If you are doing these things to show your husband it is okay, and understand exactly just this, mabye you are making things too easy for your man.

For considering in my own mind, it is not aggression or passionate pursuing necessary to catch a quarry that is making things too easy. What excitement is that? 

Also, what expectation? 

Like as if I was to watch pornography. To me, living and experiencing the life I have, it is always too contrived and false and I get not much excitment as the real thing.

So maybe just consider this, for you to piss off your man more often, and give him the good reason to spank you. And I do not mean merely playful spanking.



> And NO, he does NOT have these kinds of fantasies, not the Dominant kind you speak of. A while back, I have started a whole thread about Men preferring Dominant women, these are more his fantasies. I have been with this man for 28 yrs , I know HIM inside & out. Now what I dont want to hear from you is that my husband is some kind of freak. I probably wanted assurance from other men on this forum, that this is "normal "-- BECAUSE OF YOUR POSTS!


No, I am not ever looking to say what is normal or not normal!

I am by far not normal myself, as my wife would quickly remind me. 

Besides, normal is boring, by defintion. What fun is that?

I am only saying this, if the good man or woman in a relationship that is unsatisfying for either, then there are steps to take to fix these things, as they should be fixed.



> I know this, when we 1st started watching porn together, one of the BIGGEST turn ons for him was Jennie Jameson all dressed in Red in some Dominatrix outfit with a whip or something. I am sorry, this is what "does it" for my husband!! I have asked, we have shared, we talk about it all, When it comes to fantasys, he has little to say, he just mentions Strippers and he says I fullfill them all. Maybe if he wasn't having SO much sex, he would have more, I don't know! It is claimed that the "sexually starved" usually write the best Romance novels. Got to be something to that, their imaginations/fantasys are burning for release.
> 
> Trust me, I want MORE of an answer from him, I fish for it, he is not one to close up-push me away, he tries but in honesty he simply claims he does not feel that way.


I am thining more and more, you are making sexual life too easy for him. 

If the lamb walks to the lion and lays down every evening, what a tame lion would result.

Now a hungry lion, that no one needs to be around!



> Listen, I know your intentions are well, but it is NOT going to do ME any good to believe He is inferior to other men, or for me to try to change what HE IS, what turns him on. For a time, I tried , was that ever beating my head against the wall !! I won't go there again.


Understand, this is no contest between men.

Only the contest, is between who we are today, and who we could be tomorrow. That is the contest that we all need to be on the winning path. 




> MEN, they simply are not all the same, maybe the majority, but sexually, their can be some outside the box. I mean, Heck, we have gay men, I know they do not have the same fantasies!! I know he is NOT gay by any means.
> 
> I mean, he may have smaller , less dominate fantasies but not these "dark primal aggressive" kind you speak of.
> 
> I know you won't agree, but I still feel that hormonally, his having low normal testosterone levels is the answer behind this. Testosterone promotes Fantasy and Aggression & Sexual desire. This is simply fact.
> 
> Now here is MY bet.... but I doubt I will ever get to see the comparison -as he may never accually NEED Testosterone Treatment. But if we took an inventory of his sexaul thoughts, fantasys & how HOT his desire is NOW --then put him on Testosterone injections or patches, I bet you anything in this world, his fantasies will take a whole new realm that would even surprise him, his Desire will be MORE OFTEN AND MORE EROTIC in nature, he would even become aggressive in a way I never seen before. I have heard both men & women talk about the changes after treatment, with some new benefits sexually - but unwanted benefits in aggression. So I know this to be truth.
> 
> Women who do not fantasize also are probably lacking in testosterone in compared to Nymphos.


Also understand, these things I say, are primary to men.

Also this, assuming there are no health issues or that there was sexual passion in the beginning.

These things you speak of regarding testosterone, I do not disptute that at all.

But the danger, to refuse to say anything at all, because men are individual or women are individual, this is also not beneficial.

Merely take what is beneficial, and leave that which is not, this is for the individual to decide for himself or herself.  



> Why I am so hellbent on you accepting this is beyond me, I guess I enjoy the challenge- and that you are Mr Big Bad Wolf. My husband is still a "Good" man despite this thing you can not understand.


On this challenge, why indeed would you care where I accept it or not?  

But concerning your husband, I will not say your man is lucky to have you. 

I will say absolutely he earned the devotion of a woman such as yourself because of the man he is. 

This speaks all I would ever need to know on the both of you. 

SimplyAmorous, I wish you well.


----------



## greenpearl

Just to let you guys know that I was being corrected by my 13-year-old son today. I was sitting improperly. My husband was laughing at me because I was corrected by son again. I get corrected by my son a lot now! Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, I was happy. I was proud. My son knows what his mother did was right or wrong. I don't mind being corrected by him. I put my legs together and sat up like a LADY!!!

MY WONDERFUL SON AND WONDERFUL HUSBAND!


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> Just to let you guys know that I was being corrected by my 13-year-old son today. I was sitting improperly. My husband was laughing at me because I was corrected by son again. I get corrected by my son a lot now! Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy, I was happy. I was proud. My son knows what his mother did was right or wrong. I don't mind being corrected by him. I put my legs together and sat up like a LADY!!!
> 
> MY WONDERFUL SON AND WONDERFUL HUSBAND!


I don't know why but I thought you had said you didn't have any children. I have a thirteen year old as well, soon to be fourteen, but a girl. Adore her as I do my other two.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BigBadWolf said:


> I only can share of my perspective, based on my own experience and lifetime.


 I appreciate this humble comment, as it is what the majority of us instinctively do in life, but it also hinders understanding of others, at times.



BigBadWolf said:


> If you are doing these things to show your husband it is okay, and understand exactly just this, mabye you are making things too easy for your man..


 I know you are still trying to make sense of this. 1st you suspected I might not be allowing him enough comfortable freedom to be WHO HE IS deep within, now it is that I might be making it "too easy", so his Primal instincts have no need to bare their teeth.

I'll be the 1st to admit, Yeah, I probably do make it easy, real easy these days. But given our past in this area, when I was NOT so easy to arouse, this brought no Primal animal out of him. He still waited for me many times to come to him. I would say up to 40% of the time I came on to him, he would probably say less, but I disagree as when I had it on MY MIND, it ended in sex. When he had it on HIS mind, it did NOT probably more than 1/2 of the time cause he did not half aggressively let me know what he wanted. It has been a major blessing to our sex life that I AM THIS WAY NOW. 

The thought of trying to become Passive - to allow this primal man to emerge, well, I know him well enough to know I would loose patience with that test majorly fast!! 

...and Consdiering what AROUSES him (Aggressive women), seriously WHY should I do that, should I not just BE what he desires me to be? As this role, for me personally, I DO enjoy, it flows quite naturally. He is ALWAYS receptive , willing and we have a beautifully connecting Sensual time. Sure, I have some "EROTIC" fantasies he can not seem to fullfill but besides you Big Bad Wolf, I would say that is the norm with at least 90% of all couples around the globe, I am being conservative here, I am sure it is more. I would NEVER leave him over this. If he lost that receptive desire, I MAY, but what we have truly is fullfilling "enough" by all means. You are the rarity here who lives out ALL of your sexual fantasies. 



BigBadWolf said:


> For considering in my own mind, it is not aggression or passionate pursuing necessary to catch a quarry that is making things too easy. What excitement is that?
> 
> Also, what expectation? .


 I like what you say, I UNDERSTAND it. I personally DO passionetly pursue. I am passionate about anything I am "into" & well my husband is IT right now. All I can say is >> He FEELS it and it is contagious when we are together. My passion fuels his passion. Not sure how else to describe that. He is somewhat of a CHALLENGE to me - just because I sometimes need to "work him up" (beings hormonally he is not as lustful outright as other men). But my pay off is getting him all hot & bothered, bringing him to where I am. And this fuels my desire for more learning & experimenting to keep this hot ongoing sex life. 



BigBadWolf said:


> So maybe just consider this, for you to piss off your man more often, and give him the good reason to spank you. And I do not mean merely playful spanking.


 I am definetly a challenge to him in other ways, maybe not sexually , but again, he is not very aggressive. He does not seek out what you describe here. He spanked me once or twice, it was all in a joking kind of fun play though. I am sure we will NEVER reach to the levels of what you are describing by any means. This is not something I have a fantasy about at all so I am not bothered.



BigBadWolf said:


> No, I am not ever looking to say what is normal or not normal!
> 
> I am by far not normal myself, as my wife would quickly remind me.
> 
> Besides, normal is boring, by defintion. What fun is that?
> 
> I am only saying this, if the good man or woman in a relationship that is unsatisfying for either, then there are steps to take to fix these things, as they should be fixed..


 I agree with that last statment wholeheartily. I am accually very happy that YOU are outside the box in normalcy, and can accept that others can be as well. 

I don't feel we need fixed by any means, other than wanting to pursue YOUR posts & give another perspective. I DID struggle for a time about feeling he did not desire me - but that was when I was feeling like a heavily lustful teenage boy who couldn't get my mind off of sex even for a few minutes (boy was the fantasy realm HIGH THEN!) and him not being able to keep up with me, that was somehow shocking to my system & mind. Thankfully my hormones have calmed down since then & I have committed myself to understanding him. I have learned so much about the role of hormones, also that my then persistent feeling he NEEDED to become an Erotic like myself -was simply NOT our answer.



BigBadWolf said:


> These things you speak of regarding testosterone, I do not disptute that at all.


 Very happy to get this much from you as you never mention levels in any of your posts & how this can affect our behavior. 



BigBadWolf said:


> Merely take what is beneficial, and leave that which is not, this is for the individual to decide for himself or herself.
> 
> On this challenge, why indeed would you care where I accept it or not?


Absolutely -we should all do this- and I usually do just that & take it no further.

I care because YOU , Mr Big Bad Wof have a very high & Respected Following on this furum, for this reason alone, I felt compelled to challenge your thinking a little. Take it as a compliment. 



BigBadWolf said:


> But concerning your husband, I will not say your man is lucky to have you.
> 
> I will say absolutely he earned the devotion of a woman such as yourself because of the man he is.
> 
> This speaks all I would ever need to know on the both of you.


 He definetely earned it, this is very true. I was a little messed up emotionally back then- when he entered my life at 15, being my saving Prince rescuing the damsel in distress- as "Unbelievable" on this forum so pegged in describing why Nice Guys end up with Aggressive women on one of my threads. But I was not a stupid girl even then, I could spot the irresponsible, the user, the addicted, and all those other men with grave baggage that could come to haunt me & my children in the future. I know I made a FINE choice even if he is a little "out of the box". 


Thank you for listening & sharing Mr. Big Bad Wolf. Appreciate it !


----------



## greenpearl

Trenton said:


> I don't know why but I thought you had said you didn't have any children. I have a thirteen year old as well, soon to be fourteen, but a girl. Adore her as I do my other two.


I was divorced. I have a son with my ex. A wonderful son!!! He is a head taller than me now. He lives with his father. I get to see him every Saturday. He is very mature . He knows to comfort Mom now. Once I started talking about sad stuff, my son told me not to talk about it since talking about sad stuff would only make me sad. What a wonderful son! We used to go to nice restaurants when he came to visit us. He told me that he would rather eat Mom's food because it is cheap and delicious. He would go to the Internet and search jokes for me because he knows Mom likes to laugh. 
Now he is able to talk to us in English. When he comes to visit me, I also have to serve as an English teacher for him. 

In my life, my son is the only person I feel I haven't done enough for. I am doing my best, but deep down in my heart, I ask him to forgive me. I comfort myself by telling me that everybody grows up in a different way. My childhood wasn't much better. 

Fortunately, my son's life is OK. He is a happy son actually. His father, my husband, and I love him a lot. He has three people's love. He doesn't lack love.


You guys are great, get to watch your children grow up. I was selfish, I chose to end my unhappy marriage. My ex wouldn't let me take my son since in Taiwan, sons are important to the men's family. I couldn't even have a fight because I didn't have Taiwanese ID when I wanted to leave. I gave up everything: an apartment and money( $80,000 altogether) just to make his father happy so I could get to see my son regularly.His father did feel better after he got to have all the material stuff. We actually have a very good relationship now. He respects my husband. He is happy to see that my husband is giving me a happy life. 

Life...........................sigh...........................never perfect..................................


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> As you may imagine “conflict” between my wife and me was very hard and sometimes impossible to resolve, things just got buried but not forgotten. I think this was basically because with my style I see conflict as a good thing, an opportunity for improvement and my wife saw it as a bad thing.
> 
> I wonder where the nice guys would put themselves?



I also see Conflict exactly as you do- an opportunity for improvement. 

As for my Nice Guy Husband, he does not welcome conflict, or pursue it (as I would ) but once in it- he never runs, he stands firm, he desires resolution as much as I, things are never buried & he is fully able to forgive & never bring that incident up again, but grow from it.

AFEH - where did your original post go ? I don't see it now.


----------



## Conrad

"Nice guys" see conflict as something to be avoided at all costs.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

BBW...
I am not sure what message you are trying to convey here. Most men don't think of themselves as rapists at all! Unless they have actually raped a women, I doubt that their sexual actions would come across as rape. 
Am I wrong in thinking that you and your wife of 21 years have a BDSM relationship? Nothing wrong with that but you seem to think that many others have a "rapist" mentality. I think I read it wrong so apologizes in advance as emotions rarely come through in posts.


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> I You are the rarity here who lives out ALL of your sexual fantasies.


I encourage every good man and woman here to be bold and confident to pursue all their own desires and fantasies.

To make their own dreams and desires their own reality.

It is not only possible, in these modern times seeing how often marriage is described in misery, it is a necessity!



> He is somewhat of a CHALLENGE to me - just because I sometimes need to "work him up" (beings hormonally he is not as lustful outright as other men). But my pay off is getting him all hot & bothered, bringing him to where I am. And this fuels my desire for more learning & experimenting to keep this hot ongoing sex life.


What you are describing here, is just to me very much to be expected.

Why does a woman fix her hair, make up her face, lipstick, nice (tight) clothes that flatter her figure, stockings and high heels, all these things are this one thing, to light the fire in a man, to arouse in him his desires, to be the quarry that desires pursuit. 

This is to describe the behavior that is this, the woman striving to be dominated. 





> He spanked me once or twice, it was all in a joking kind of fun play though. I am sure we will NEVER reach to the levels of what you are describing by any means. This is not something I have a fantasy about at all so I am not bothered.


To spank properly, in this particular way, it is just this.

For example, imagine some woman is testing her man, that she is nagging about something that is trivial or being emotionally challenging, or is overly confrontation or, in extreme case, speaking or doing something very disrespectful to her man.

Her man, for example, imagine he approach her, get behind her, firmly grabbing her around the front, perhaps clutching one of her breasts, the other hand goes up her skirt, pulling down her panties, and then bends her over his leg giving her one or maybe several very hard and firm swats to her butt cheeks.

Enough to leave a handprint, this much force is expected, but in the deliberate and controlled and calm manner to deliver these swats, very audible to hear and very determined in delivery.

To do this proper, then in the woman is both her nipples very erect, her vagina is becoming wet and starting to swell, and her emotions are now very calm and focused, usually on one thing, and that is to have intercourse with this man who has just done this incredible and bold and deliberate display of dominance to her.

This I have experienced, and heard from other experiences too many times to dispute.

Even less than healthy displays of physical force can and do this same effect between a man and woman, but I do not encourage to test these waters in a public marriage forum, for that is not the point AT ALL to what I am saying.

(Regardless this point should not be overlooked to understand the mystery of why some very unhealthy and abusive relationships have the dynamics in which they so often do.) 

Of course, if spanking or other expressions of male dominance, it is not a bother to either of you to not experience these things, then nothing to worry about.

Only so often it does become a bother to so many other couples, and even more than a bother it is often becoming poison to the relationship.

Either the man is unaware of these desires in women, and at best they miss out on sexual bliss, but at worse along comes some affair man and from the blue the good man is SHOCKED to see his "nice girl" wife doing things he never imagined.

Or the woman is unaware to her self, what reactions are possible in her she never dreamed because her "nice guy" husband and her have never explored these things, and then some "bad boy" affair man comes along and wakes up inside her these primal feelings, and WATCH OUT, we all know how this story unfold!!!!!

So how much the better, for the good man and woman to learn and explore these powerful primal forces of attraction, that we only see shadows and glimpses of in our own hidden fantasies and occasionally in pornography, and explore these TOGETHER to use these powerful forces of attraction to make the marriage stronger and sexual and passionate and blissful than ever imagined!!!!!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Brennan said:


> BBW...
> I am not sure what message you are trying to convey here. Most men don't think of themselves as rapists at all! Unless they have actually raped a women, I doubt that their sexual actions would come across as rape.


This is a good topic, and probably deserving it's own thread.

First, there is the tendancy of the "nice guy" to try to empathize with what he thinks a woman wants him to feel (what really is more along the lines of what he thinks she wants him to say).

So in this, the nice guy will often agree to a woman to say some man behaving dominant is a jerk, or arrogant, or controlling, or full of himself, etc etc etc.

So in the emotionally and politically charged issue of rape, a man hears how horrible a rape is from a woman, but in his mind is imagining the act itself, aggressive violence involving sexual organs. 

So he concludes, wrongly but understandably, that rape is horrible because it is aggresive sex. 


Therefore, in the mind of the nice guy, is planted this terrible lie, that aggressive sex is bad. 

And this lie leads to so much misery between men and women I cannot even begin to type this out, but just look at this forum as example of this testimony.

But the reality is, and the man often misses this because he doesn't listen or the woman is unwilling to discuss these horrible details, is that rape is bad moreso in her mind emotionally 100 times worse than the mere physical attack.

So in this way, a woman will plainly say "rape is not sex", but even though the good man will often agree, he is not always truly understanding why this is so.

So good men, understand this, aggressive sex between you and the woman that you desire, and who desires you, is not "bad", and it is certainly not rape!




> Am I wrong in thinking that you and your wife of 21 years have a BDSM relationship? Nothing wrong with that but you seem to think that many others have a "rapist" mentality. I think I read it wrong so apologizes in advance as emotions rarely come through in posts.


Rape fantasy, or what I call "ravishment fantasy" for respect to victims of sexual assault, is very common among men and women alike. 

But sharing these fantasies between men and women, there is much stigma.

My wife and myself, to say BDSM would not be accurate between us, although in some elements we share with BDSM, like the "safeword" we have between us to protect trust at all times. 

Although her fantasies are along those lines (we often debate which of us has the darker desires), our relationship however unique, would closer be defined as I have seen online as the "taken in hand" relationship.

Although that exact movement and particularly the most common website devoted to it, is far too structured and rigid to be accurate.

My wife has asked me a long time ago point blank to avoid the taken in hand website and as well any external means to dictate in my own leadership sexually in our relationship, and I respect that.

Non the less, the similarities are there (spanking is hard to miss), but I am only sharing this to give your question and honest and sincere answer.


----------



## greenpearl

SA,

I agree we are all different, and we enjoy what we have. 

I do get very aroused when my husband gets behind me, spanks my butt, grabs my hair, bites my neck, grabs my breasts very firmly, fxxxx me hard, I get very very aroused because I feel he lusts after me. I moan very happily. The happier I moan, the hornier my husband becomes, it is just wild..................


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I was divorced. I have a son with my ex. A wonderful son!!! He is a head taller than me now. He lives with his father. I get to see him every Saturday. He is very mature . He knows to comfort Mom now. Once I started talking about sad stuff, my son told me not to talk about it since talking about sad stuff would only make me sad. What a wonderful son! We used to go to nice restaurants when he came to visit us. He told me that he would rather eat Mom's food because it is cheap and delicious. He would go to the Internet and search jokes for me because he knows Mom likes to laugh.
> Now he is able to talk to us in English. When he comes to visit me, I also have to serve as an English teacher for him.
> 
> In my life, my son is the only person I feel I haven't done enough for. I am doing my best, but deep down in my heart, I ask him to forgive me. I comfort myself by telling me that everybody grows up in a different way. My childhood wasn't much better.
> 
> Fortunately, my son's life is OK. He is a happy son actually. His father, my husband, and I love him a lot. He has three people's love. He doesn't lack love.
> 
> 
> You guys are great, get to watch your children grow up. I was selfish, I chose to end my unhappy marriage. My ex wouldn't let me take my son since in Taiwan, sons are important to the men's family. I couldn't even have a fight because I didn't have Taiwanese ID when I wanted to leave. I gave up everything: an apartment and money( $80,000 altogether) just to make his father happy so I could get to see my son regularly.His father did feel better after he got to have all the material stuff. We actually have a very good relationship now. He respects my husband. He is happy to see that my husband is giving me a happy life.
> 
> Life...........................sigh...........................never perfect..................................


Thank you for sharing. You and your son are both lucky. Don't think differently, ever.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> I think you and I are of like mind on this topic. As for what I said to my W that day about getting a GF, had she pulled a Trenton and tried to give me the "I don't think I will ever be able to forgive you for saying that" I would have simply responded by telling her I was just giving her an honest and definitive explanation of what was going to happen. If she couldn't get "past" my telling her that I was ok with taking a lover if she didn't want to "play" anymore I would have just shrugged. Not my problem. I didn't initiate the conversation and I don't have it in me to sneak around. Not my style.
> 
> And as I have said before her comment was made "out of the blue". Meaning we had been having frequent (and I thought mutually enjoyable) sex up until a day or two before her statement that she did not desire me.
> 
> As for the folks who say "well if you are going to do THAT then you should divorce" I have an answer that may or may not make sense. I promised my father in-law on my wedding day that I would take good care of his daughter. He was an incredible guy. I fully intend to continue making good on that promise. So I would not divorce her. If she chose to shut off sex and then divorce me for taking a lover, that would be 100 percent on her.
> 
> Really though she knows all this. I am 100 percent certain that if I had said "well if you stop having sex with me, I am filing for divorce" THAT would have been a far, far more hurtful thing to her.


 MEM, that is an incredible promise ! Very Honorable. Luckily, she has come to understand your needs & her place in the marraige & happily walk in it. 

I don't think many people understand those of us who can communicate THIS Honestly, it scares them, it can offend the senses. If someone is not this way themselves, even more so. 

Most brown nose, compliment to be polite, say things others want to hear to pacify them, some talk about Unconditonal Love so easily but how many has truly been tested by it -to speak of it's meaning? So very few. 

I terribly agree with BBW on that point about the UNcondtional Love -that men should NOT use it for the most part on women. Every one of us have our "Deal Breakers" in life. And if we say we don't, I question the honesty, or the perception of those who say this so easily. Most would leave an abusive relationship & a sexless one, if not leave, fall into the arms of another. If they don't (as many do remain faithful), show me the man/woman who is not resentful of this ? UNconditional love with resentment & pain. Many then need depression drugs. Sorry, this wouldnt work for me personally, I do not LOVE that much. I do care about myself & my own needs & wants. 

One correction I need to make about some of my posts on here is that even though I vaguely remember refusing my husabnd sex, he says I did ( I again brought that up last night with him). HE REMEMBERS and it DID take a toll on him emotionally, why eventually He often (but not always) "waited" for me to come to him. It started in the early yrs of our marraige when I could not acheive pregnancy after baby #1. I had "set times" I needed his sperm. My mind was in a dark cloud back then cause I only cared about getting pregnant. I noticed little else. 

I probably remember little cause he took the rejection so quietly, never once in our marriage did he start a fight over this (that conlfict avoiding thing). I am so pathetically different than him, this is hard for me to relate too. I said things like "not tongiht, I just want to read", and he would just roll over, sometimes he would try to play with me and I just never got aroused. It is easy for me to say he SHOULD have been more aggressive back then. Or at least opened up and shared his hurt & frustrating pain. 

Thankfully, this part of our life is over, water under the bridge now. I guess his love was somehow unconditional for me, but really, I think he should have been more aggressive in saying "LOOK -this is not working for ME" and laying down some rules --Like MEM. I only WISH he would have taken that approach.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thankfully, this part of our life is over, water under the bridge now. I guess his love was somehow unconditional for me, but really, I think he should have been more aggressive in saying "LOOK -this is not working for ME" and laying down some rules --Like MEM. I only WISH he would have taken that approach.


Could have rolled either way SA. Had he consistently pursued sex by opening up more emotionally and expressed his feeling hurt, you may have grown to find him pathetic. Had he attempted to be sexually more aggressive, you may have found him overbearing.

Regardless, it worked out. To his credit, I am left with the perception that your husband has been unflinchingly consistent. So, without a doubt, you know who he is and what he is about.


----------



## ku1980rose

Boogsie said:


> We, as men, have to relearn how to be men.


Amen.

This is exactly what I am missing in my husband. I couldn't pinpoint it, but after doing lots of reading lately and listening to lots of people, this seems to be what we are missing.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> Regardless, it worked out. To his credit, I am left with the perception that your husband has been unflinchingly consistent. So, without a doubt, you know who he is and what he is about.


 The "Unflinchingly Consistent" is the God awful truth of the matter. I mean that in a good way. It is easy for me to say NOW that I would have wanted that, very true. I just know me well enough to know , that he never did anything to "stir" me to jealousy or worry over him not being there for me, and frankly, I think that would have gotten my attention BIG TIME. His excuse was - he feared I would leave him if he pushed. My response is "Are you out of your mind !" , that would have NEVER happened. This I am sure of - then and now. 

As for me, I do believe IF he had opened up more to me, I would not have found that pathetic, but would have truly cared, I just didnt get it ! I did not have much of an education about Men's needs back then. I didnt read about stuff like this & nobody ever taught me. I have alot to teach my daughter someday to not make these mistakes. 

Appreciate your insight Deejo, my husband will like this comment.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> His excuse was - he feared I would leave him if he pushed.


That's the bit that makes me wince. It is a classic "Nice Guy" trait. It is overall, a diminishing trait. Imagine for a moment how demoralizing and damaging it is when your relationship gets to the point that you give your partner a passionate kiss and a steadfast loving gaze and her response is to roll her eyes and sigh.

I will never, ever, go there again.


----------



## MEM2020

I don't think you can "force" frequent sex with someone who doesn't like it without destroying the marriage. 

I absolutely know you can force someone to be brutally honest about what turns them on/off - and also demand that they teach you how to take them from neutral to warm to hot. I know because I did. That said you need to be flexible enough to rewire yourself as needed and disciplined enough to know the difference between a legitimate issue that effects desire and a manipulative request that is simply extortion for sex. 

I could say my W never did the extortion for sex - but then I would be lying. Twice - in our first year living together we got in bed naked and she brought up something she wanted that I was not all that keen on - not sexually - this was non-sex stuff. I don't remember what those two requests were. 

I just remember immediately going into autopilot both times. Both times without hesitation or anger or even frustration I said "oh you want to talk about something important" and I started getting dressed. And both times she was borderline shocked - I had a raging high sex drive and she had never seen this reaction - like a switch had been flipped. Sex crazed man instantly turned into a sexually neutral posture and was in fact getting dressed to go downstairs and have the conversation. And each time she said - hey forget it - lets play. And after being completely shut down twice she never ever did that again. 

I don't feel angry remembering those incidents. Just relieved that I forced a total separation between all things sexual and all other things in our marriage. A separation that she has never once since breached. 

On my side of the fence that holds true as well. I have never ever, not once ended a fight prematurely to get laid. The fight is what it is. It lasts a day a few days - maybe once or twice 4-5 days. It ends when someone says - lets end it. FWIW I rarely pick the endpoint of a fight even though I apologize more than half the time. It is pointless to try to make up before she is ready so I let her tell me when she wants to address whatever the issue is. And I am very very patient. 

With that said - being sexually disconnected is just not acceptable to me. Overall we get along well so if there is something putting her off sexually she needs to speak as it is not a "relationship" issue it is a desire/sexual interaction issue. And to her credit - there is nothing she won't say. Usually she is tactful but not always. But I refuse to play the game of "you said that in a mean way - therefore I am going to sulk and ignore the comment". I just ignore the delivery style and focus on the issue. 





Deejo said:


> Could have rolled either way SA. Had he consistently pursued sex by opening up more emotionally and expressed his feeling hurt, you may have grown to find him pathetic. Had he attempted to be sexually more aggressive, you may have found him overbearing.
> 
> Regardless, it worked out. To his credit, I am left with the perception that your husband has been unflinchingly consistent. So, without a doubt, you know who he is and what he is about.


----------



## nice777guy

SA - just to make sure I understand - your "concern" is that your H shows no desire to be dominant? That you initially believed he was holding back some darker desires because he was being too nice? But now you believe he just doesn't have those desires to dominate.

Am I on target here?

I think I remember your thread in the sex section about this as well.


----------



## nice777guy

And hey - guys - the women now have started a thread about the "Taken in Hand" website that advocates the dominant / submissive relationship between H and W.

Not too much meat to it yet - but it certainly compliments our discussions on these matters.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> And hey - guys - the women now have started a thread about the "Taken in Hand" website that advocates the dominant / submissive relationship between H and W.
> 
> Not too much meat to it yet - but it certainly compliments our discussions on these matters.


Let me take a wild guess ... They love the idea and can't wait to improve their marriages by willingly handing over authority to their husbands.


----------



## okeydokie

Deejo said:


> Let me take a wild guess ... They love the idea and can't wait to improve their marriages by willingly handing over authority to their husbands.


not much response over there yet, but i suspect that even if the ladies wanted their man to be completely dominant, it wont be admitted. i seriously doubt many of them actually do.


----------



## MEM2020

How do you dominate in the areas where your wife is clearly more knowledgeable or skillful than you are? 

Other than sex - for us - expertise/skill is the main determinant of who is loosely "in charge" of what. There are many areas where we have similar skill levels - and in those situations our combined effort usually produces a better outcome than either individually. 





okeydokie said:


> not much response over there yet, but i suspect that even if the ladies wanted their man to be completely dominant, it wont be admitted. i seriously doubt many of them actually do.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> How do you dominate in the areas where your wife is clearly more knowledgeable or skillful than you are?
> 
> Other than sex - for us - expertise/skill is the main determinant of who is loosely "in charge" of what. There are many areas where we have similar skill levels - and in those situations our combined effort usually produces a better outcome than either individually.


MEM, 

At school, my husband has to listen to me. He himself joked: If I say jump, he asks how high. 

But at home, I am a very submissive wife. I know why. My Chinese countryside background helps, but the most important thing is, I respect my husband. Why do I respect him so much, no mention he is a great husband, he has a lot of good qualities I adore. He reads a lot, he learns a lot from his reading. He is a big fan of John Le Carre, Graham Greene, Alan Furst, Martin Cruz Smith, Philip Roth, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Gore Vidal, Peter Carey. He reads about two books a month. So I learn a lot from him. When we talk, I am like his student, I just absorb his knowledge. How come I understand men and life so much? A lot comes from him. He is a normal man if we talk about career, but he is very life-smart. 

Why wouldn't I respect a man like this?

He is very loving, every day I take a nap, he turns on the air conditioner and makes sure that the bedroom is cool. He has to hold me for about five minutes before I let him go. I call that his job. After I wake up, he makes me a cup of latte, with a lot of love and effort, he knows how sweet I want, what kind of milk I like. 

Every weekend, he asks me where I would like to go and what I would like to do. We walk around the park, around the river, around department stores, we are still like dating, we hold hands, we look at each other fondly, people who don't know us always ask us if we are married or not. Because they don't think a married couple would act this romantically. 

Why wouldn't I cherish a man like this? 

But he never lets me step on his head, you guys know it clearly, he won't let me act childishly. I respect him for restraining me. I respect him for not giving in to my silly woman issues. I even let him make decisions what kind of clothes I buy since he has good taste and he is not impulsive. 

He has a very good temper, he doesn't show his frustration by anger, he only tells me firmly, I get the hint, I know he is upset, I also feel grateful that he treats me respectfully. 

How come he is this unique? There are many reasons! 

Really wish he could come here and share his life with everybody.


----------



## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> not much response over there yet, but i suspect that even if the ladies wanted their man to be completely dominant, it wont be admitted.* i seriously doubt many of them actually do.*


Okey, do you mean women in general or those pitching in on the thread?

I used to believe that the entire concept was prehistoric. Quite frankly I thought it was dumb. I thought women were smarter than that - once they grew out of the teen, college co-ed lunacy of liking bad boys.

What I've found really unusual, is that in many cases women that have come out of the other side of a divorce with a long-term husband and family, are once again looking for Mr. Excitement, not Mr. Dependable and Predictable. It's like retro-rebellion.


----------



## nice777guy

That's another area where I consistently struggle with the idea of the Dominant man. Women aren't leaving "nice guys" for mature, successful men who will take them by the hand and lead them through life.

Instead, they are going for whoever is around - whoever has more time than their husband and shows an interest.



Deejo said:


> Okey, do you mean women in general or those pitching in on the thread?
> 
> I used to believe that the entire concept was prehistoric. Quite frankly I thought it was dumb. I thought women were smarter than that - once they grew out of the teen, college co-ed lunacy of liking bad boys.
> 
> What I've found really unusual, is that in many cases women that have come out of the other side of a divorce with a long-term husband and family, are once again looking for Mr. Excitement, not Mr. Dependable and Predictable. It's like retro-rebellion.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> That's another area where I consistently struggle with the idea of the Dominant man. Women aren't leaving "nice guys" for mature, successful men who will take them by the hand and lead them through life.
> 
> Instead, they are going for whoever is around - whoever has more time than their husband and shows an interest.


Can't disagree with that, NG. As we have discussed before, I don't believe that any of these men are 'better', more dominant, or more sexually charged. Their biggest asset is, _they aren't us_.

My wife was looking to connect with someone ... other than me. I had done all the reaching out, I could tolerate. She was floored when I told her that I was at the place of considering leaving, and ending the marriage. I thought surely that would be her wake up call. It wasn't.

She could have ended up with the kid bagging groceries if she actually did the food shopping. She chose a guy she had regular access to, who as you point out, was simply available. She didn't look for better, she looked for present and attentive. I think the same is probably true for men pursuing affairs. Although they may go for younger and more attractive, in the scheme of things, I still think people tend to affair 'down'.


----------



## OhGeesh

Deejo said:


> Can't disagree with that, NG. As we have discussed before, I don't believe that any of these men are 'better', more dominant, or more sexually charged. Their biggest asset is, _they aren't us_.
> 
> My wife was looking to connect with someone ... other than me. I had done all the reaching out, I could tolerate. She was floored when I told her that I was at the place of considering leaving, and ending the marriage. I thought surely that would be her wake up call. It wasn't.
> 
> She could have ended up with the kid bagging groceries if she actually did the food shopping. She chose a guy she had regular access to, who as you point out, was simply available. She didn't look for better, she looked for present and attentive. I think the same is probably true for men pursuing affairs. Although they may go for younger and more attractive, in the scheme of things, I still think people tend to affair 'down'.


I agree!! This dominant crap is horse manure!!


----------



## greenpearl

We need love, we need attention, we need affection, we need consideration, we need time. 

When we are sad, please hold us, tightly.

When we are sick, please look after us, fondly. 

You guys give us all of these, we let you be our heads.


----------



## nice777guy

I wouldn't say its crap...

BBW and MEM are both in (by their accounts) healthy, long-term marriages that are working with these principles.

Several women have indicated on this thread that they wish their men were more dominant.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> I wouldn't say its crap...
> 
> BBW and MEM are both in (by their accounts) healthy, long-term marriages that are working with these principles.
> 
> Several women have indicated on this thread that they wish their men were more dominant.


What they are doing is right, I don't think they are dominant, they are very loving and committed to their wives. 

MAN UP doesn't mean dominant. MAN UP means you stand up for yourself, you don't let your woman manipulate you!


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> What they are doing is right, I don't think they are dominant, they are very loving and committed to their wives.
> 
> MAN UP doesn't mean dominant. MAN UP means you stand up for yourself, you don't let your woman manipulate you!


I agree that they may be loving and committed, but they are doing more than simply standing up to their wives. There does seem to be a degree of dominance. They seem to be in the driver's seat - these marriages are not 50/50. Maybe 51/49 - but not 50/50.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> I agree that they may be loving and committed, but they are doing more than simply standing up to their wives. There does seem to be a degree of dominance. They seem to be in the driver's seat - these marriages are not 50/50. Maybe 51/49 - but not 50/50.


It is OK as long as their wives are happy with it. In some areas he gets more, in some areas she gets more, as long as they are happy with it. From their posts, you never see them complain about their wives. They always talk about their wives fondly. They are happy with what they have!

It is OK to have a certain level of dominance if their wives are OK with it. Some women don't mind being dominated as long as they show respect to them.


----------



## nice777guy

The questions I guess I always come back to:

Is their way THE way? Or does it just work well for them?

And is it truly a gender issue (Males dominate/females submit), or is it more of a personality issue in that it works in "these" marriages because of the people involved?


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> The questions I guess I always come back to:
> 
> Is their way THE way? Or does it just work well for them?
> 
> And is it truly a gender issue (Males dominate/females submit), or is it more of a personality issue?


Don't know. 
Depends on what kind of woman you have. Their way works great for them, we already know for sure. But is their way THE way, I am not sure. But the key is being loving and respectful and not to spoil your wife, I think this should be considered for THE way. I do find they are this kind of men. You have to be sure of yourself, it is important for men not to let women manipulate them.


----------



## greenpearl

It is difficult for a couple to find the balance. Either the man is too weak or the wife is too weak. Neither of these are good. 

It is important to find the balance. 

My husband is a MAN, but he isn't domineering, he is loving and affectionate.


----------



## Deejo

To be clear, I DO NOT think the relationship dynamic of behaving in alpha or dominant fashion is crap. It's real, whether we choose to explore it or dismiss it. 

This is where I am at peace with the concept: it is a method of behavior geared towards creating and preserving attraction. 

That is what I want from it. That is what has been working for me so far.
I expect most women to rail against it. It doesn't matter. We can talk about understanding, communication, and striving for cognitive and spiritual harmony all we want.

There is a core, basic component to attraction, and it DOES NOT involve being an emotionally over sensitive, eager to please and needy individual. I didn't start out there when I met my spouse, but I ended up there before deciding that enough was enough. 

Mistakes and failures only have two outcomes, learn from them and grow, or ignore and repeat them.


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> You have to be sure of yourself, it is important for men not to let women manipulate them.


Is this really a gender issue, or an overall issue about respect in relationships?

So women can be "unsure", but men can't? Truthfully, we are unsure sometimes - so are we expected to fake it?

Is it OK for men to manipulate their wives?


----------



## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> To be clear, I DO NOT think the relationship dynamic of behaving in alpha or dominant fashion is crap. It's real, whether we choose to explore it or dismiss it.
> 
> This is where I am at peace with the concept: it is a method of behavior geared towards creating and preserving attraction.
> 
> That is what I want from it. That is what has been working for me so far.
> I expect most women to rail against it. It doesn't matter. We can talk about understanding, communication, and striving for cognitive and spiritual harmony all we want.
> 
> There is a core, basic component to attraction, and it DOES NOT involve being an emotionally over sensitive, eager to please and needy individual. I didn't start out there when I met my spouse, but I ended up there before deciding that enough was enough.
> 
> Mistakes and failures only have two outcomes, learn from them and grow, or ignore and repeat them.


100% agree. We all make mistakes, none of us are perfect, we didn't know what we were going to get until we found out. Learn from our mistakes, and never make the same mistakes again. When we are older, we know what we want, so look for the qualities we want from our potential partner. 
We are different people, we want different things. 
But the key points we should all consider. 
For example a good wife should cook, clean up, manage money well, and satisfy her husband sexually, for other things, depends on individual.
A good husband should be faithful and committed, provide for his family, spend time with his family.


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> Mistakes and failures only have two outcomes, learn from them and grow, or ignore and repeat them.


Deejo - do you really think your marriage was a mistake or a failure? I hate seeing people frame it that way. 

What if you had "Manned Up" - do you think your wife would have stayed? If you had "Manned Up" - would you have WANTED her to stay?

And knowing what you know now - if she had stayed - would you have ever had a healthy marriage?


----------



## Deejo

MEM and BBW have 'emotional symmetry' in their marriages. That is MEM's term, and it is still one of my favorites.

Like them, don't like them. Approve or disapprove. Barring the possibility that they are both single dudes living in their parents' basement, I believe they have shared the truth and dynamics of how their marriages work. And I don't think anyone can argue that their marriages are successful and healthy.

I could have used the information they have shared about seven years ago. That was the tipping point for our marriage. That is when I 'resigned' myself to believing that this would be as good as it gets. I would continue being a loving husband and father, getting a trickle of sexual contact with the hope that she would eventually 'come around'. 

That never happened, and I believe that my behavior was a significant factor in assuring it wouldn't happen. She would never have described me as a pushover or a whimp. She would have described me as even-tempered, dedicated, and "nice".

I haven't given up on those qualities. I have simply chosen to temper them with a much keener edge.


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Is this really a gender issue, or an overall issue about respect in relationships?
> 
> So women can be "unsure", but men can't? Truthfully, we are unsure sometimes - so are we expected to fake it?
> 
> Is it OK for men to manipulate their wives?


No, it is not OK. Nobody should manipulate the other one. But men tend to be more rational, women tend to be spoiled, the society has influenced us this way. We expect men to give us everything we want, we expect men to meet our needs, we expect men to spoil us. It is not healthy for a woman to think like this. 
Here I am talking people in general, I am not talking about the extreme ones.


----------



## nice777guy

But your wife married the "nice guy" - right?

Do you think you could have "saved" your marriage by becoming more dominant? Hindsight being 20/20 - would you have WANTED to save your marriage?

Sounds like you didn't start with 'emotional symmetry' - could you have somehow transitioned into it?



Deejo said:


> MEM and BBW have 'emotional symmetry' in their marriages. That is MEM's term, and it is still one of my favorites.
> 
> Like them, don't like them. Approve or disapprove. Barring the possibility that they are both single dudes living in their parents' basement, I believe they have shared the truth and dynamics of how their marriages work. And I don't think anyone can argue that their marriages are successful and healthy.
> 
> I could have used the information they have shared about seven years ago. That was the tipping point for our marriage. That is when I 'resigned' myself to believing that this would be as good as it gets. I would continue being a loving husband and father, getting a trickle of sexual contact with the hope that she would eventually 'come around'.
> 
> That never happened, and I believe that my behavior was a significant factor in assuring it wouldn't happen. She would never have described me as a pushover or a whimp. She would have described me as even-tempered, dedicated, and "nice".
> 
> I haven't given up on those qualities. I have simply chosen to temper them with a much keener edge.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Deejo - do you really think your marriage was a mistake or a failure? I hate seeing people frame it that way.
> 
> What if you had "Manned Up" - do you think your wife would have stayed? If you had "Manned Up" - would you have WANTED her to stay?
> 
> And knowing what you know now - if she had stayed - would you have ever had a healthy marriage?


That is an interesting question. I don't think I married the wrong person. I don't think of my marriage as a failure. But ... I certainly can't call it a successful marriage, can I?

Had I confronted the sexual issue long ago using a different approach, our outcome would have been clearer, sooner.

Our circumstances were unfortunate. We didn't foresee the impact of the issues. There was a genuine physical piece to the sexual problems. It's hard to enjoy something watching your partner grimace in pain. What became the acceptable course was avoiding dealing with the issue - and I allowed it. I thought pushing it made me a selfish, insensitive, pr!ck. But avoiding it, enabled her behavior of associating sex with me ... as bad, and it stuck.

Knowing what I know now, I can still unequivocally say that I would have preferred to preserve my marriage. But ... we would never achieve 'emotional symmetry' had we remained together. I won't even consider marriage without knowing that is a workable formula in the future.

Does that answer your question?


----------



## nice777guy

Yes - that does answer it. Thank you for your honesty - and sorry if I pushed a bit much.

You are a good man - I hope you know that.



Deejo said:


> That is an interesting question. I don't think I married the wrong person. I don't think of my marriage as a failure. But ... I certainly can't call it a successful marriage, can I?
> 
> Had I confronted the sexual issue long ago using a different approach, our outcome would have been clearer, sooner.
> 
> Our circumstances were unfortunate. We didn't foresee the impact of the issues. There was a genuine physical piece to the sexual problems. It's hard to enjoy something watching your partner grimace in pain. What became the acceptable course was avoiding dealing with the issue - and I allowed it. I thought pushing it made me a selfish, insensitive, pr!ck. But avoiding it, enabled her behavior of associating sex with me ... as bad, and it stuck.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, I can still unequivocally say that I would have preferred to preserve my marriage. But ... we would never achieve 'emotional symmetry' had we remained together. I won't even consider marriage without knowing that is a workable formula in the future.
> 
> Does that answer your question?


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> But your wife married the "nice guy" - right?
> 
> Do you think you could have "saved" your marriage by becoming more dominant? Hindsight being 20/20 - would you have WANTED to save your marriage?
> 
> Sounds like you didn't start with 'emotional symmetry' - could you have somehow transitioned into it?


This came up in one of the many 'dominant' threads in the past. It may sound juvenile, but hey ... I prefer to think of it as 'youthful'.

I started out in my relationship with my spouse as Superman. I ended it being Clark Kent. I hope you are familiar enough with the character to understand the analogy. Had I remained Superman - things may have been different.

Now ... I want to be Batman. "I'm Batman ..."


----------



## nice777guy

Chicks dig the car and the suit!


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Chicks dig the car and the suit!


That's what I'm talkin' about ...


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Chicks dig the car and the suit!


Hey, both of you, focus on your present and future now, focus on what kind of women you want and what kind of men you want to be now, what happened happened, please don't keep on saying how come you failed. It is going to make other people feel bad. We all make mistakes, it is fine. We can always learn and do a better job and not to make that mistake again. 
Go and find nice women for me, not the ones on the forum, I warn you!


----------



## greenpearl

Deejo said:


> This came up in one of the many 'dominant' threads in the past. It may sound juvenile, but hey ... I prefer to think of it as 'youthful'.
> 
> I started out in my relationship with my spouse as Superman. I ended it being Clark Kent. I hope you are familiar enough with the character to understand the analogy. Had I remained Superman - things may have been different.
> 
> Now ... I want to be Batman. "I'm Batman ..."


Cool.............................

I don't want to be her, though! forget who she is!


----------



## Kramer

I have just been reading this post as I am new member looking for answers to having a better marriage. I agree with the message, and I like a lot of other men have gone down a similar path.

MY QUESTION IS: for those of us that are still living within this environment where we have done everything to provide for our wife and we simply have settled in a marriage whereas we co-exist with our partner, not having fun, not having our needs met....CAN THIS BE CHANGED by returning to masculine man?

Most post I read talk about past relationships failed and the learnings from those relationships, but can an existing relationship be brought back to life?..

I noticed I am become more than man I used to be it simply irritates my wife....even in the most calm manner. I know its a process but has anyone ever gotten back to glory days?


----------



## greenpearl

Kramer said:


> I have just been reading this post as I am new member looking for answers to having a better marriage. I agree with the message, and I like a lot of other men have gone down a similar path.
> 
> MY QUESTION IS: for those of us that are still living within this environment where we have done everything to provide for our wife and we simply have settled in a marriage whereas we co-exist with our partner, not having fun, not having our needs met....CAN THIS BE CHANGED by returning to masculine man?
> 
> Most post I read talk about past relationships failed and the learnings from those relationships, but can an existing relationship be brought back to life?..
> 
> I noticed I am become more than man I used to be it simply irritates my wife....even in the most calm manner. I know its a process but has anyone ever gotten back to glory days?


Sounds like they failed, I don't know much, they can tell you their story.


----------



## Kramer

Sounds like it. I believe it is true that one needs to maintain his masculinity, however once its perceived lost by the wife, can it be regained and the marriage returned to glory or if by that time it is too late?


----------



## nice777guy

Hello and welcome.

I believe that most of the people who post here have admitted to having problems in the past. I seem to recall that even some of the more dominant men (or whatever you want to call them) have had problems in their marriages like everyone else.

I'm working on it.

Two things - find the book No More Mister Nice Guy - seems to be the Bible for us nice guys. I've read about half of it.

Second - the changes that you want to make will be difficult on your wife initially. But hopefully she will recognize these changes as positive and encourage you to do what you feel you must do.

Good luck!



Kramer said:


> I have just been reading this post as I am new member looking for answers to having a better marriage. I agree with the message, and I like a lot of other men have gone down a similar path.
> 
> MY QUESTION IS: for those of us that are still living within this environment where we have done everything to provide for our wife and we simply have settled in a marriage whereas we co-exist with our partner, not having fun, not having our needs met....CAN THIS BE CHANGED by returning to masculine man?
> 
> Most post I read talk about past relationships failed and the learnings from those relationships, but can an existing relationship be brought back to life?..
> 
> I noticed I am become more than man I used to be it simply irritates my wife....even in the most calm manner. I know its a process but has anyone ever gotten back to glory days?


----------



## Kramer

Thanks Niceguy...I will get the book tomorrow. I will take your note as a positive one in that it is possible. I need to believe it is right now.


----------



## Idontknownow

I just wanted to add my vote of confidence for your Kramer.

I have noticed subtle but regular changes in my husband as he has gone up in rank and become more successful in his job and in life. It's actually quite refreshing and exciting. Some times hard, sure or unexpected...but he's more of a "man" now then he ever was and I have a growing respect and adoration for the person he continues to grow into and the strength he exhibits in certain situations and just being more secure in who he is.

I can't predict how your wife will react to you changing. I just hope it will be positive for you.


----------



## Kramer

Frankly it is most likely b/c of work that has caused some of my struggle. The company I worked for was bought out so I am no longer actively employed. Before this I rose from an analyst to Vice President in 4 years so the loss of the job most likely produced this environment. It is not a financial matter as we are well set given the executive parachute, however I thought me being home more, spending more time with the wife and kids as a family was a good thing....actually being around more, helping out a lot - didn't turn out like I thought.

I have recently began to reclaim my life, taking in a few job offers and am in the best shape of my life but nothing seems to be working so I have begun to take back my life, my passions and my happiness, I just hope it works. Either way, I am beginning to feel more confident again so regardless of the direction I like my odds.

Thanks


----------



## BigBadWolf

Can a nice guy change into the dominant man he needs to be?

Absolutely!

I have said it many times on this forum, I was in that nice guy trap as well, to be married, and especially after the children came, to ignore why at some times sex was incredible, but most of the time it was either hit or miss, and eventually trickled to not much at all. 

In all this, until I put 2 plus 2 together that is, to see the correlation between dominance and sexual attraction.

In fact, that is exactly what needs to happen if ever any good man finds himself in the situation, where his woman is not respecting him and sexual needs are rock bottom.

How will the woman react? This is how.

1. She will increase respect for him, and feel, understand this FEEL sexual attraction to the displays of dominance.

2. But on the outside, at first, she will become defensive with words. This is practically without fail. 

As a woman, do not expect anything less, for a woman always tests her man, especially the man she is interested in and is inside her tingling her fire either with his dominance or (ironically to some) his practical indifference! 

To handle this, issues that are legitimate, of course handle them calmly and confidently. This is why I encourage all men to take care of themselves and their own business from their own leadership, do not leave these things undone to force your woman into "mother" mode to you. Get out of this dynamic ASAP, any good man that finds himself in it. This is not sexual attraction at all! 

Issues that are NOT 100 percent legitimate, as in mere nagging or what I call the "shotgun" approach, where the woman launches this or that, or drags up from the past, or speaks of some chore not done, gets emotional, etc etc etc. 

All good men reading this, get this, REALLY get this: 

From your woman, anything resembling a personal insult, a putdown, something can be easily seen to be an emotional tantrum, anything you can put in the box described as "childish behavior", all these things that so many men complain about their women, all these things are this one thing: A test for you to either pass or fail. 

If a man wants to fail these tests, he will do this by responding to these tests with any measure of lack of control of himself. 

Do not confuse yelling and punching a wall with strength, these are showing lack of control. Do not confuse arguing in response to arguing, or nagging in response to nagging, these again show lack of control. 

For the good man who wants to pass these tests, easy. 

That is, easy when the good man is his own leader!  

Since he is calm and confident from his own leadership, he does not rise or fall emotionally with the approval or disapproval of his woman.

Since he is happy and successful from his own leadership, he does not wither and collapse if his woman is not thinking to cut him down, or speak to him disrepectfully. 

Since he is emotoinally grounded in his own esteem of himself (yes, the infamous 'male ego'), he does not mind so much when his woman tries to test him. 

INstead of reacting as a "crisis mode" in such tests, he stands or moves in his own strength and leadership with calmness, confidence, mild amusement, and assess the situation and deals with it in calm, confident strength.

IN a few times of practice with this, the good man sees that his calmness and confidence is contagious to his woman, and her respect for him skyrockets, and her sexual attracion for him skyrockets, and she is confident herself to trust him to emotionally open up to him fully. (Actually, in time the man will learn to create these tests of his own choosing and timing, so that to be caught by surpise is happening far less an less) 

For a woman, who doesNOT trust her man, and is NOT emotionally open to him, she will indeed be seen as all these horrible adjectives we men can dream up! 

The nag, the harpy, the "b!tch", the shrew, the ball and chain, the battle axe, the hag, etc etc etc. 

So understand this, this is exactly how a woman is purposely to be, from the ground up this is what a woman is supposed to do!

As a good man, do not be confused by this, or find it some great mystery, or most importantly, do not hold this against a woman! 

To act in her nature, for it is for her own protection for thousands of centuries to behave in this way, it will not change with mere political correct thinking!

To keep out the weak man, and only let in the strong man!

To keep out the weak man who would abandon her the minute danger comes, to only let in the strong man who will fight to the death any evil to protect her! 

The finesse, do not let modern thinking confuse the communication that a woman is giving her man, to pay more attention to her behavior than her words, for these often contradict!

So to take this with you:

As in the stories of old, these same truths were handing down from fathers to sons, from mothers to daughters, of the gallant shining knight off to slay the dragon to win the maiden!

Only the brave knight will slay the dragon, not with fine words or logic, or not by being afraid of the dragon and avoiding the fight altogether (and, men, ESPECIALLY not by idling sitting around insisting the maiden fight for herself  ).

The shining knight only slays the dragon to win the maiden by boldly and confidently facing the dragon head on!

Doing this, wins the maiden!

And good men reading this, these things, by doing and experiencing them, we discover these truths.

The gallant shining knight, in our hearts desire to be seen and understood in our masculine ways, a tested hero.

And this other truth, subtle to many in this generation, but truth non the less, that the maiden and the dragon are both the same person, the woman we wish to pursue, the beautiful tester of heros.

Do not take these lessons lightly, for to truly understand and love a woman, and this means to the core sexually and emotionally, it is indeed taking courage and boldness, for these things between good men and women, nature has not made them easy on purpose.

For the treasure, to the shining knight that desires to win the maiden, this treasure is priceless indeed. 


Kramer, and all other good men on the good path to understand these things, I wish you well.


----------



## Kramer

Big Bad Wolf - Thank you.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> SA - just to make sure I understand - your "concern" is that your H shows no desire to be dominant? That you initially believed he was holding back some darker desires because he was being too nice? But now you believe he just doesn't have those desires to dominate.
> 
> Am I on target here?
> 
> I think I remember your thread in the sex section about this as well.



Accually, until I came to this forum & started reading this stuff -mainly BBW posts, I never EVER gave any of this a minor thought. Yes, my husband is a Nice Guy, this may have it's faults (mainly he should have persued sex with me in more creative & communicative ways in the past & showed MORE concern for himself & his needs), but it certainly has it's +++'s as well. 

He is the most affectionate man ever, in comparing to my friends husbands & posts I read on here about problems with men, other husbands, I can not even fatham, he is patient, he is kind, he is a Pleaser at heart, he is most concerned about my happiness in bed, he has mastered the male "Multiple orgasm" thing, always making sure I get mine 1st. So, really, what do I have to complain about. You know us women, sometimes we LOOK for things to complain about. 

Because of what BBW is always saying, Yes, I tried in every way to explore that side of him, to see if it was there, all the talks we have had, things we have tried, but it is simply NOT there. The man does not have these dark primal aggessive desires or fantasies. I have went out of my way in trying to make sense of this through learning MORE about personality types (He is of coarse the Phlegmatic), how hormones affect our brains (I believe my husband is probably unusually high in Vasopressin- the bonding monogamy hormone), even reading about the Brain in relation to how we love & think about sex. Some of us have overactive areas in our brains that we get stuck in, I can point where I am overactive sometimes (mostly during PMS), in my cingulate gyrus. 

Of coarse I can live with my husband remaining the way HE IS, but to continously hear men like this be put down or that something is wrong with them, this gets under my skin. I was considering purchasing the book NO MORE Mr. NICE Guy, but after reading one reviewers rant about how he was continually putting the nice guy down, I am not sure I could stomach that one. So I think I will choose another, such as "Hold on to your Nuts" and/or "Too nice for your Own Good". 

To be quite honest, I would always choose a Nice Guy over any other type - so long as he has a GOOD sex drive. If that was lacking, well, I would throw him out. But my husband certainly has one, despite his lower levels of Test in his body. The Encron told us he is about 200 or more points less than other men in his age group. So we do pretty da** good considering.


----------



## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> Can a nice guy change into the dominant man he needs to be?
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> I have said it many times on this forum, I was in that nice guy trap as well, to be married, and especially after the children came, to ignore why at some times sex was incredible, but most of the time it was either hit or miss, and eventually trickled to not much at all.
> 
> In all this, until I put 2 plus 2 together that is, to see the correlation between dominance and sexual attraction.
> 
> In fact, that is exactly what needs to happen if ever any good man finds himself in the situation, where his woman is not respecting him and sexual needs are rock bottom.
> 
> How will the woman react? This is how.
> 
> 1. She will increase respect for him, and feel, understand this FEEL sexual attraction to the displays of dominance.
> 
> 2. But on the outside, at first, she will become defensive with words. This is practically without fail.
> 
> As a woman, do not expect anything less, for a woman always tests her man, especially the man she is interested in and is inside her tingling her fire either with his dominance or (ironically to some) his practical indifference!
> 
> To handle this, issues that are legitimate, of course handle them calmly and confidently. This is why I encourage all men to take care of themselves and their own business from their own leadership, do not leave these things undone to force your woman into "mother" mode to you. Get out of this dynamic ASAP, any good man that finds himself in it. This is not sexual attraction at all!
> 
> Issues that are NOT 100 percent legitimate, as in mere nagging or what I call the "shotgun" approach, where the woman launches this or that, or drags up from the past, or speaks of some chore not done, gets emotional, etc etc etc.
> 
> All good men reading this, get this, REALLY get this:
> 
> From your woman, anything resembling a personal insult, a putdown, something can be easily seen to be an emotional tantrum, anything you can put in the box described as "childish behavior", all these things that so many men complain about their women, all these things are this one thing: A test for you to either pass or fail.
> 
> If a man wants to fail these tests, he will do this by responding to these tests with any measure of lack of control of himself.
> 
> Do not confuse yelling and punching a wall with strength, these are showing lack of control. Do not confuse arguing in response to arguing, or nagging in response to nagging, these again show lack of control.
> 
> For the good man who wants to pass these tests, easy.
> 
> That is, easy when the good man is his own leader!
> 
> Since he is calm and confident from his own leadership, he does not rise or fall emotionally with the approval or disapproval of his woman.
> 
> Since he is happy and successful from his own leadership, he does not wither and collapse if his woman is not thinking to cut him down, or speak to him disrepectfully.
> 
> Since he is emotoinally grounded in his own esteem of himself (yes, the infamous 'male ego'), he does not mind so much when his woman tries to test him.
> 
> INstead of reacting as a "crisis mode" in such tests, he stands or moves in his own strength and leadership with calmness, confidence, mild amusement, and assess the situation and deals with it in calm, confident strength.
> 
> IN a few times of practice with this, the good man sees that his calmness and confidence is contagious to his woman, and her respect for him skyrockets, and her sexual attracion for him skyrockets, and she is confident herself to trust him to emotionally open up to him fully. (Actually, in time the man will learn to create these tests of his own choosing and timing, so that to be caught by surpise is happening far less an less)
> 
> For a woman, who doesNOT trust her man, and is NOT emotionally open to him, she will indeed be seen as all these horrible adjectives we men can dream up!
> 
> The nag, the harpy, the "b!tch", the shrew, the ball and chain, the battle axe, the hag, etc etc etc.
> 
> So understand this, this is exactly how a woman is purposely to be, from the ground up this is what a woman is supposed to do!
> 
> As a good man, do not be confused by this, or find it some great mystery, or most importantly, do not hold this against a woman!
> 
> To act in her nature, for it is for her own protection for thousands of centuries to behave in this way, it will not change with mere political correct thinking!
> 
> To keep out the weak man, and only let in the strong man!
> 
> To keep out the weak man who would abandon her the minute danger comes, to only let in the strong man who will fight to the death any evil to protect her!
> 
> The finesse, do not let modern thinking confuse the communication that a woman is giving her man, to pay more attention to her behavior than her words, for these often contradict!
> 
> So to take this with you:
> 
> As in the stories of old, these same truths were handing down from fathers to sons, from mothers to daughters, of the gallant shining knight off to slay the dragon to win the maiden!
> 
> Only the brave knight will slay the dragon, not with fine words or logic, or not by being afraid of the dragon and avoiding the fight altogether (and, men, ESPECIALLY not by idling sitting around insisting the maiden fight for herself  ).
> 
> The shining knight only slays the dragon to win the maiden by boldly and confidently facing the dragon head on!
> 
> Doing this, wins the maiden!
> 
> And good men reading this, these things, by doing and experiencing them, we discover these truths.
> 
> The gallant shining knight, in our hearts desire to be seen and understood in our masculine ways, a tested hero.
> 
> And this other truth, subtle to many in this generation, but truth non the less, that the maiden and the dragon are both the same person, the woman we wish to pursue, the beautiful tester of heros.
> 
> Do not take these lessons lightly, for to truly understand and love a woman, and this means to the core sexually and emotionally, it is indeed taking courage and boldness, for these things between good men and women, nature has not made them easy on purpose.
> 
> For the treasure, to the shining knight that desires to win the maiden, this treasure is priceless indeed.
> 
> 
> Kramer, and all other good men on the good path to understand these things, I wish you well.


WOLF, 

I give you A BIG THUMB UP. 

This is really what a man should do. Never resolve anything to anger, but confidence and self-control.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> The questions I guess I always come back to:
> 
> Is their way THE way? Or does it just work well for them?
> 
> And is it truly a gender issue (Males dominate/females submit), or is it more of a personality issue in that it works in "these" marriages because of the people involved?


 I personally believe in your last thought here.....

"*It is more of a personality issue in that it works in these marraiges because of the people involved*". I definetely feel strongly that our marraige works well because of WHO we are & our differences "compliment" each other. Our personality types are complete & utter opposites, but our primary Love Languages R the same. This helps tremendously. 

The ideal is obviously for the man to take the lead, and the woman to be submissive. But some of us our simply outside the box in some of these areas. In my marriage, my husband is the sole Breadwinner, I guess you could say he is Responsible in most areas outside of the bedroom- as a man is expected to be 
- but in the bedroom we are equal or me even more so. It is what it is. 




BigBadWolf said:


> As a woman, do not expect anything less, for a woman always tests her man, especially the man she is interested in and is inside her tingling her fire either with his dominance or (ironically to some) his practical indifference!


 I think he is talking about me here ! I wouldn’t go as far as to say he has an indifference, but it IS my challenge to get him MORE than just going, as BBW says, to light HIS fire - hopefully bringing him to the brink of a few orgasms before I get mine.


I want to say one thing about Sexual Attraction here, maybe I am like a young school girl still but for me, sexual attraction has more to do with "Looks" than how aggressive a man is. If my husband possesed all these Dominant traits everyone speaks of, but was 50 lbs overweight, this would not help me at all in the bedroom. It would turn me off. I know me too well. He may not be dominating but I find his body appealingly sexy, so this is what works "for me". I have caught myself thinking , I am proud to be on his arm cause he is a good looking man. 

In all this talk, we fail to ever even mention how this may play a part in women loosing attraction to their men. We all KNOW Men struggle horribly when their wives gain, new threads are started every day here, why not women? Maybe they just admit it less? These things may have little to do with dominance but our own vain Lust for Good Looks. A homely Super Hero would do little for me, give me the shy underpaid hardly noticed man with the wire glasses with the nice smile & slender body - anyday. Maybe I am just weird. 

...and the issue of >>>>> are these men accually there for their wives day in & day out. Spending time with them, lavishingly attention, listening to them, going places with them, sharing their interests. Women DO get lonely & would seek attention elsewhere if these things are not met, it wouldn't matter how dominate you are if you are not there enough outside of the bedroom.


----------



## nice777guy

SA - you are right - there is nothing wrong with being a nice person. 

I think the term "Nice Guy" - usually written in caps on this board - refers to someone who has compromised themselves in certain ways - mainly placing the happiness of others above their own needs.

This will eventually lead to resentment - especially if other people take advantage of our good nature.

It doesn't sound like you and your H are falling into these kinds of traps. Maybe your personalities are well matched.

I have to admit that I find his lack of a "dark side" a bit hard to believe. I thought EVERYONE had a dark side!



SimplyAmorous said:


> Accually, until I came to this forum & started reading this stuff -mainly BBW posts, I never EVER gave any of this a minor thought. Yes, my husband is a Nice Guy, this may have it's faults (mainly he should have persued sex with me in more creative & communicative ways in the past & showed MORE concern for himself & his needs), but it certainly has it's +++'s as well.
> 
> He is the most affectionate man ever, in comparing to my friends husbands & posts I read on here about problems with men, other husbands, I can not even fatham, he is patient, he is kind, he is a Pleaser at heart, he is most concerned about my happiness in bed, he has mastered the male "Multiple orgasm" thing, always making sure I get mine 1st. So, really, what do I have to complain about. You know us women, sometimes we LOOK for things to complain about.
> 
> Because of what BBW is always saying, Yes, I tried in every way to explore that side of him, to see if it was there, all the talks we have had, things we have tried, but it is simply NOT there. The man does not have these dark primal aggessive desires or fantasies. I have went out of my way in trying to make sense of this through learning MORE about personality types (He is of coarse the Phlegmatic), how hormones affect our brains (I believe my husband is probably unusually high in Vasopressin- the bonding monogamy hormone), even reading about the Brain in relation to how we love & think about sex. Some of us have overactive areas in our brains that we get stuck in, I can point where I am overactive sometimes (mostly during PMS), in my cingulate gyrus.
> 
> Of coarse I can live with my husband remaining the way HE IS, but to continously hear men like this be put down or that something is wrong with them, this gets under my skin. I was considering purchasing the book NO MORE Mr. NICE Guy, but after reading one reviewers rant about how he was continually putting the nice guy down, I am not sure I could stomach that one. So I think I will choose another, such as "Hold on to your Nuts" and/or "Too nice for your Own Good".
> 
> To be quite honest, I would always choose a Nice Guy over any other type - so long as he has a GOOD sex drive. If that was lacking, well, I would throw him out. But my husband certainly has one, despite his lower levels of Test in his body. The Encron told us he is about 200 or more points less than other men in his age group. So we do pretty da** good considering.


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> To be quite honest, I would always choose a Nice Guy over any other type - so long as he has a GOOD sex drive.


Did I mention? "I'm Batman." *Stands heroically, closed fists fixed upon hips, steely gaze into the horizon ... adjusts wedgie from tights*

Your husband is one lucky 'Nice Guy'.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> .
> 
> I have to admit that I find his lack of a "dark side" a bit hard to believe. I thought EVERYONE had a dark side!


 You just said "Dark Side", you did not say "sexual dark side" ??? If you mean Dark side (not referring to sexual), I would say , sure he has one, maybe not to the dephts of some others minds & thoughts. My husband is not so nice as to love everyone, he often says "I hate people" (joking but at the same time he means it- a dry humor kind of thing), he has little use for many people because they annoy him. Dont we all feel this way !??

I know he "COULD" have a dark side, IF someone hurt me or any of our children, he says he would "loose it". He does not care for scary movies at all, or violence on tv. I would say I am somewhat fasinated by these things & would seek to watch them if they were TRUE stories, but he rarely wants to watch. Except for the program "1000 WAYS TO DIE", this can get pretty sick, we find it humous many times but he will watch this with me. 



nice777guy said:


> .
> I think the term "Nice Guy" - usually written in caps on this board - refers to someone who has compromised themselves in certain ways - mainly placing the happiness of others above their own needs.
> 
> This will eventually lead to resentment - especially if other people take advantage of our good nature.


 I know this is what the "Nice Guy" term means on this thread, & men usually seek out these particular books BECAUSE they are feeling angry, used & tired of this Merry go round in life & seeing this is not working for them. Kinda the same truth behind one of my favotire books of all time Amazon.com: Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No-To Take Control of Your Life (Inspirio/Zondervan Miniature Editions) (9780762421022): Dr. Henry Cloud, Dr. John Townsend: Books

My husband , being the way He is, has not ever felt these feelings very strongly as to do something about them, feeling HE needed fundamentally changed. He has never felt his Niceness was ruining his life, by any means. For him , it is a non-issue. He is quite content being the way he is. He does not complain people take advantage of him at all. 

Even in our past, yes, he wanted more sex, but he never showed his irritation with me, maybe a little with the kids, but never with me. He has explained it like this , and this is also a trait of the "Sensual Lover" ..... He might have wanted to make love but if he felt his partner was not into it, he would infact "not enjoy the experience as much", so waiting until she is -is worth the wait. This was his mindset. Maybe a little resentment was there during that time, but it never got to any boiling point by any means. Luckily for me, he is not a grudge holder at all , never has been, but very forgiving. 

He is very sacrificial by his own nature, probably that cool phlegmatic temperment he has. I believe that because when he does sacrifical good things for others, He NEVER complains about it afterwards or keeping score kind of thing, with anybody. Me, on the other hand, would do those things if I felt I was being taken advantage of.


----------



## nice777guy

Just to clarify - the resentment would normally come after YOU - the center of his attention - decide that you need more excitement in your life and that he's not able to give it to you. Then he (we) are left standing there, thinking about all we've given up and wondering how the person we've given it all to would want to leave.

So - as long as he doesn't feel resentment and is getting his needs met - and as long as YOU don't feel there is something important missing - then maybe you don't need to do so much reading. 

And yes - I do tend to think that most people have a sexual dark side also. I *do* suppress mine - and my wife has never tried to pull it out of me. Would be interesting if she had tried!



SimplyAmorous said:


> You just said "Dark Side", you did not say "sexual dark side" ??? If you mean Dark side (not referring to sexual), I would say , sure he has one, maybe not to the dephts of some others minds & thoughts. My husband is not so nice as to love everyone, he often says "I hate people" (joking but at the same time he means it- a dry humor kind of thing), he has little use for many people because they annoy him. Dont we all feel this way !??
> 
> I know he "COULD" have a dark side, IF someone hurt me or any of our children, he says he would "loose it". He does not care for scary movies at all, or violence on tv. I would say I am somewhat fasinated by these things & would seek to watch them if they were TRUE stories, but he wants no part of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I know this is what the "Nice Guy" term means on this thread, & men usually seek out these particular books BECAUSE they are feeling angry, used & tired of this Merry go round in life & seeing this is not working for them. Kinda the same truth behind one of my favotire books of all time Amazon.com: Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No-To Take Control of Your Life (Inspirio/Zondervan Miniature Editions) (9780762421022): Dr. Henry Cloud, Dr. John Townsend: Books
> 
> My husband , being the way He is, has not ever felt these feelings very strongly as to do something about them, feeling HE needed fundamentally changed. He has never felt his Niceness was ruining his life, by any means. For him , it is a non-issue. He is quite content being the way he is. He does not complain people take advantage of him at all.
> 
> Even in our past, yes, he wanted more sex, but he never showed his irritation with me, maybe a little with the kids, but never with me. He has explained it like this , and this is also a trait of the "Sensual Lover" ..... He might have wanted to make love but if he felt his partner was not into it, he would infact "not enjoy the experience as much", so waiting until she is -is worth the wait. This was his mindset. Maybe a little resentment was there during that time, but it never got to any boiling point by any means. Luckily for me, he is not a grudge holder at all , never has been, but very forgiving. He is very sacrificial by his own very nature. I believe that because He
> NEVER complains about it afterwards or keeping score kind of thing, with anybody. Me, on the other hand, would do those things if I felt I was being taken advantage of.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> So - as long as he doesn't feel resentment and is getting his needs met - and as long as YOU don't feel there is something important missing - then maybe you don't need to do so much reading.


 I know you are right, I am just too curious, I buy more books than women have shoes. Just my thing. I like to know what I am talking about, and what others are talking about. I have many sons, they can too benefit from this kind of reading-someday if they find themselves in this trap & it is hurting their relationships. 

If my hubby has a Dark Sexual side, he is in no way conscious of it. I am not sure what else to add. 

So what are you surpressing exactly? 

I know from talking to a "nice guy" on this forum, that HE indeed has this dark aggressive side, very dominant in fact in his mind & comes out in his writing skills when expressing these primal desires to take his woman. He could be a romance novelist, I was so impressed! --- but the thing about him is >>> he is NOT getting ANYTHING from his wife at all ! And I don't believe he has ever acted upon such fantasies either. So his Lustful mind is in OVERDRIVE, a man in the barren dry desert hungering & thirsting, Doesn't this make for the most passioniate writers *and imaginations*. 

My husband has admitted , back in the day, when he was NOT getting as much, he had more fantasies, but again, still not dark ones.


----------



## nice777guy

I don't think I'm surpressing anything too wild or exotic. The problem isn't so much "what" I'm surpressing - but that I have trouble really letting it loose. Being purely selfish in bed might be good for a change.

I find all of this stuff incredibly fascinating. I was just reading in the women's forum a thread about what they find attractive in men. Their answers don't exactly seem to be in synch with the Dominant Man theory. They say they want loving, caring men who will care for them - the normal stuff women say.

I just wonder if the women are holding back how they really feel, or do they not recognize for themselves what they truly want?

Almost seems like many women almost settle for the nice guy when they get married - then later find themselves craving the guy with the motorcycle and tatoos (or batsuit and batmobile).


----------



## Scannerguard

Okay, I didn't read all posts (don't have the time) but SA asked if nice guys were sensual lovers and high test. guys were erotic lovers.

Probably a true generalization.

Unless you are God's gift to women like me, who can be both 

Seriously though, one thing I noticed is even though I have changed my approach to a relationship being a little more domineering, I was still the same in the bedroom (sensual).

I think I could bring out an erotic side though.

Anyway, I think somewhere Brennan had her skin crawl with the statement I made about Educated Women being more difficult.

Well, to just let her know, it was just a theory. Education = power and a man has to either ursurp the educated woman with more education or the woman has to surrender it in the marriage, if it's not going to work as a 50/50 partnership.

The man also has a responsiblility. He could really value his woman's intellect and seek her counsel often when making decisions.

The woman with a good intellect too could wear a nice secretary outfit, with her hair in a bun and little curls down by her ears - you know - the hot, repressed librarian look. 

Anyway, my next woman I want to date, I am going to seek out a check-out girl, a medical assistant or something and see what and how if the dyamic is different. I would assume there would be less in common.


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> I just wonder if the women are holding back how they really feel, or do they not recognize for themselves what they truly want?


Bingo.

I have stated it several times, there is a distinct difference between what women will define as attractive from an intellectual standpoint, which may not necessarily reconcile with what they find viscerally attractive at a primal level.




> Almost seems like many women almost settle for the nice guy when they get married - then later find themselves craving the guy with the motorcycle and tatoos (or batsuit and batmobile).


I posted this in the "Apples" thread but it is germane to this discussion as well. The truth is ... they want both.

Women like cads for sex, dads for mating


----------



## Scannerguard

> Almost seems like many women almost settle for the nice guy when they get married - then later find themselves craving the guy with the motorcycle and tatoos (or batsuit and batmobile).


I wore this to the bedroom one night. . .but somehow it didn't go over well.

I thought Wonder Woman would be there when I popped through the door.


----------



## MEM2020

I am going to turn this around. 

Deejo, NG, 
Lets say you have to choose between 5 women. They are identical in every way save one. They all have a different level of desire for conflict. 

Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it. 
Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations. 
Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner. 
Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason. 
Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time. 

So lets turn the tables for a moment. What kind of woman do YOU guys want? 




Deejo said:


> Bingo.
> 
> I have stated it several times, there is a distinct difference between what women will define as attractive from an intellectual standpoint, which may not necessarily reconcile with what they find viscerally attractive at a primal level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I posted this in the "Apples" thread but it is germane to this discussion as well. The truth is ... they want both.
> 
> Women like cads for sex, dads for mating


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> I am going to turn this around.
> 
> Deejo, NG,
> Lets say you have to choose between 5 women. They are identical in every way save one. They all have a different level of desire for conflict.
> 
> Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it.
> Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations.
> Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner.
> Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason.
> Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time.
> 
> So lets turn the tables for a moment. What kind of woman do YOU guys want?


MEM, 

How are you? Happy day 
I am waiting for their answers. Looks like I have to check this thread tomorrow. I am going to bed!:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:


----------



## nice777guy

Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it. 
* - No Lying - gone*

Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations. 
* - I'm not a mind-reader and don't want to be - gone*

Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner. 
* - Sounds a lot like me - a definite maybe*

Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason. 
* - I don't mind the aggressive part, and I think conflict can be helpful; don't care much for the '*****y for no reason' part;*

Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time. 
*- a simple no*

I'll take Woman #3 - what have I won?


----------



## MEM2020

I am going to show a few cards here at risk of biasing the responses. The "higher" you go on the aggression scale the more "real" the relationship. The more comfortable your partner is with "conflict" the more comfortable they are with being "UN comfortable". This absolutely plays out in and out of the bedroom. 

The more aggressive she is the clearer picture you have of where you stand overall. With what she likes/dislikes. She WILL hurt your feelings more often and most likely WON'T surprise you with an out of the blue walk away. 

That said, the higher on the scale she is the more she CRAVES real conflict. This is different than craving victory/always wanting to get her way. In fact, if her "win rate" is 100 percent she will cease to see it as conflict and it will just become bullying/overpowering a weak/helpless partner and THAT will harm/kill the marriage. 

So if you like a W4 that is fine as long as you recognize and accept that for her to respect (and without that you have nothing) you, it is necessary to give her the high quality conflict she wants/needs. 




MEM11363 said:


> I am going to turn this around.
> 
> Deejo, NG,
> Lets say you have to choose between 5 women. They are identical in every way save one. They all have a different level of desire for conflict.
> 
> Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it.
> Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations.
> Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner.
> Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason.
> Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time.
> 
> So lets turn the tables for a moment. What kind of woman do YOU guys want?


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> I am going to turn this around.
> 
> Deejo, NG,
> Lets say you have to choose between 5 women. They are identical in every way save one. They all have a different level of desire for conflict.
> 
> Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it.
> Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations.
> Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner.
> Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason.
> Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time.
> 
> So lets turn the tables for a moment. What kind of woman do YOU guys want?


I've been with all of them ... not at once.

#1 You never knew where you actually stood with this woman. 
#2 I married a 2. Things are great, while things are going great.
#3 Was college. We had a wonderful thing going, but I was not ready to settle into an LTR. She took her leave. I respected that.
#4 I was engaged to a 4. I will stress that she was far more upbeat and positive then she was b!tchy. She had strong opinions but would acknowledge sound reasoning. But, occasionally she would wander wildly off the reservation so to speak. 
#5 Dated twice. No thanks ... 

I want a 3.5, can I do that?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I would say I am combination of # 3 & # 4, I don't mind conflict, my husband would even say I "enjoy" it , not because I like to fight with people though, I just LOVE real communication & this sometimes creates conflict. I think I am constructive in handling it, even he would say I would have to have "a reason" to outright bi***. No doubt I can do it well when there IS a reason though. 



Deejo said:


> I posted this in the "Apples" thread but it is germane to this discussion as well. The truth is ... they want both.


 I absolutely agree with this ! We do want both, we want the best of both worlds. * Bad Guys Get the Girls, Good Guys Keep Them.* This was at the ending of that article. I agree with this. And statistics will bear it out. Even in my books discussing Testosterone , the men with lower levels have less affairs on their wives & these marragies have less divorces. 

The HIgh Test guy may be Exciting, Exhilerating & passionately Lustful in bed, he may also be charmingly daring, strong & humorous, BUT he is also more arrogant, moody, rebellious, vulgar, shrewd, and slanderous, he often has a roving eye, loves variety & has to put this part of himself down, he is more prone to masterbate, go off alone in his cave, be irritable, always in control- possbily trying to control his wife & children. Women may want some of this but certainly not the whole package. 

Then enters the Nice Guy, the Fatherly type, he may not need his cave so much, may give & lavish more affectionate attention to his wife & children, but his Passivity is not all that "Exciting" to this same woman, so she may dream of that Daring Bad Boy, but she has to remember, he is SO difficult to tame, He is mostly good for a short roll in the hay, not necessarily for a life partner & Father. So what do we really want- ultimately? 

A TAMED bad boy may be the perfect ticket but how rare a find. 

This article was more about the Fatherly type of man, but I think it also covers what we call the "Nice Guys' as well -they are more domestic, happy, peaceable, bookish, moral, gentle, compassionate, frank, and shy. I definetly consider my husband a true & true "Fatherly type" in line with this article.


----------



## MEM2020

LOL.

W3 is my second choice. Less pain, but less pleasure than W4. W4 is my first choice - *****iness and all. The over the top behavior is more than offset (for me) by the raw, edgy reality of being so deep inside someone else's head that the boundaries between the two of you tend to completely blur out. Plus having a partner who is consistently mixing the soft, loving, gentle stuff with the intense, rough harsh stuff is utterly fascinating. 





nice777guy said:


> Woman 1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it.
> * - No Lying - gone*
> 
> Woman 2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations.
> * - I'm not a mind-reader and don't want to be - gone*
> 
> Woman 3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner.
> * - Sounds a lot like me - a definite maybe*
> 
> Woman 4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be biitchy at times without reason.
> * - I don't mind the aggressive part, and I think conflict can be helpful; don't care much for the '*****y for no reason' part;*
> 
> Woman 5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time.
> *- a simple no*
> 
> I'll take Woman #3 - what have I won?


----------



## MEM2020

LOL - very good. I really think the best match for ANYONE is the most aggressive person they can actually handle. And I do not mean handle in a derogatory manner. 

The reason I believe that is because that person - makes you stretch. They DO push your boundaries and half the time you have to smack them down for being crazy. Ah - but the other half you push yourself and reach a place that you NEVER would have gotten to on your own. 




Deejo said:


> I've been with all of them ... not at once.
> 
> #1 You never knew where you actually stood with this woman.
> #2 I married a 2. Things are great, while things are going great.
> #3 Was college. We had a wonderful thing going, but I was not ready to settle into an LTR. She took her leave. I respected that.
> #4 I was engaged to a 4. I will stress that she was far more upbeat and positive then she was b!tchy. She had strong opinions but would acknowledge sound reasoning. But, occasionally she would wander wildly off the reservation so to speak.
> #5 Dated twice. No thanks ...
> 
> I want a 3.5, can I do that?


----------



## nice777guy

In this example, a 3.5 would probably be my best fit, but I married a 4.5.

SA - you are describing the way I was brought up to believe life should go. Young girl experiments with the "bad boy" before settling down and marrying the "nice guy." But here on this board, she marries the nice guy first, then gets bored after 10-15 years and goes looking for what she thinks she's been missing.


----------



## Deejo

MEM11363 said:


> LOL - very good. I really think the best match for ANYONE is the most aggressive person they can actually handle. And I do not mean handle in a derogatory manner.
> 
> The reason I believe that is because that person - makes you stretch. They DO push your boundaries and half the time you have to smack them down for being crazy. Ah - but the other half you push yourself and reach a place that you NEVER would have gotten to on your own.


I had the most chemistry with my 4. She was just flat out fun. She distinctly did NOT like when I pushed back. She _expected_ me to agree with her.


----------



## OhGeesh

Wow.....another form of putting people in a box.....I think this poll is a crock too along with the domination principle nothing more than fancy wordplay. Domination should = loving, caring, honest, focused, forthright, loyal, etc etc etc Domination for the sake of saying I'm Alpha is a crock.


This poll is the same.........my wife is a self proclaimed conflict avoider aka people pleaser. She will go out of her way to make others happy I am very much the same especially in my family's case. I willingly and 99% of the time happily sacrifice so others can have more of ____________(fill in the blank). Even though we both try to please others we are both (especially her) gut wrenchingly honest because we both want happiness for others and those around us there is no conflict. We bend, we compromise, we sacrifice for the well being of others. I can count on 1 hand the amount of "yelling" arguments we've had since we got married over 12Yrs+ ago!!

As far as how any of this correlates to the bedroom.....good luck with trying to connect those dots:lol:


----------



## MEM2020

NG,
She IS missing something and that is the point. At risk of making this up on the fly and being completely wrong in terms of "generalizations" I will describe our situation. 

My "default" setting is a 3. She is set at 4 - but ranges from 3 to 5. What I have learned to do is respond "in the moment" to her aggression level. When she gets surprised by something and goes to a 5 by accident she gets the "3" level defuser treatment. If she directs the 5 at ME, she immediately gets a 4, with a non-verbal warning that I am about to go to a 5. 

But this only works if you can jack your aggression levels WITHOUT losing your temper. If you can stay calm while inflicting consequences that is a skill of near infinite value if you have an aggressive partner. 






nice777guy said:


> In this example, a 3.5 would probably be my best fit, but I married a 4.5.
> 
> SA - you are describing the way I was brought up to believe life should go. Young girl experiments with the "bad boy" before settling down and marrying the "nice guy." But here on this board, she marries the nice guy first, then gets bored after 10-15 years and goes looking for what she thinks she's been missing.


----------



## nice777guy

OhGeesh,

I felt the same way you do initially. I am by no means a full convert, but a lot of what is being said on this thread is filling in holes - answering questions that just made NO sense before.

I went back and read a few of your posts - please forgive me if I get this wrong - 

You sound like a nice person - won't use caps or put in quotes. And after reading a few of your posts, your wife sounds nice also. You want more sex, and she isn't exactly on board with it.

Comparing your posts to the ones in this thread, I would question what your wife's response would be if you were to show a little more initiative - if you acted less like a nice person who would like something and more like a man who needs something.

I don't know how your conversations have gone, but instead of discussing your needs, are there ways you could do a better job of SHOWING her your needs. A slap on the rear, grabbing her hand to hold as you walk together in public, a passionate kiss when you or she come home at night, a dirty text sent at lunch, etc., etc.

One thing I am convinced of - just a few threads above - is that women claim to want one thing from a partner, but deep down they are attracted something much more primal.

Good luck.



OhGeesh said:


> Wow.....another form of putting people in a box.....I think this poll is a crock too along with the domination principle nothing more than fancy wordplay. Domination should = loving, caring, honest, focused, forthright, loyal, etc etc etc Domination for the sake of saying I'm Alpha is a crock.
> 
> 
> This poll is the same.........my wife is a self proclaimed conflict avoider aka people pleaser. She will go out of her way to make others happy I am very much the same especially in my family's case. I willingly and 99% of the time happily sacrifice so others can have more of ____________(fill in the blank). Even though we both try to please others we are both (especially her) gut wrenchingly honest because we both want happiness for others and those around us there is no conflict. We bend, we compromise, we sacrifice for the well being of others. I can count on 1 hand the amount of "yelling" arguments we've had since we got married over 12Yrs+ ago!!
> 
> As far as how any of this correlates to the bedroom.....good luck with trying to connect those dots:lol:


----------



## nice777guy

MEM11363 said:


> But this only works if you can jack your aggression levels WITHOUT losing your temper. If you can stay calm while inflicting consequences that is a skill of near infinite value if you have an aggressive partner.


I think your use of the word "skill" is what makes this so well said.

Thank you.


----------



## MEM2020

*conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*

DJ,
Without watching a specific interaction I have no comment on that. I do believe that even if someone is angry that you disagree with them - if you are firm and tactful and then if needed VERY firm, overall they will respond better to that than to any other behavior. They may even get really mad in the moment - but overall - if you are rational they will respect you.





Deejo said:


> I had the most chemistry with my 4. She was just flat out fun. She distinctly did NOT like when I pushed back. She _expected_ me to agree with her.


----------



## nice777guy

Just one more thing while its bugging me...

I don't agree with everything written here - but the level of honesty being shared by some of the men on this board is absolutely incredible.

To dismiss this as crap or a bunch of sexist generalizations is to oversimplify the level and depth of the discussions that are taking place here.

Thank you.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



MEM11363 said:


> DJ,
> Without watching a specific interaction I have no comment on that. I do believe that even if someone is angry that you disagree with them - if you are firm and tactful and then if needed VERY firm, overall they will respond better to that than to any other behavior. They may even get really mad in the moment - but overall - if you are rational they will respect you.


Gotta say, I am often amazed at how people struggle with maintaining a respectful, assertive stance. Generally they either fold, or blow a gasket.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



MEM11363 said:


> DJ,
> I do believe that even if someone is angry that you disagree with them - if you are firm and tactful and then if needed VERY firm, overall they will respond better to that than to any other behavior. They may even get really mad in the moment - but overall - if you are rational they will respect you.


 I have "lived" this many many times with my religious male friend in "debate". He gets SOOO angry with me- cause I do not agree with him. I stand firm in my differing beliefs, sometimes he was seriously ready to blow his top, he has even left! I do not get real bothered by this, as I know he will come back around, I have even laughed at this behavior after he has left -like why does he let this bother him SO much !! 

I always know he will be back, and then share the underlying thing that royally ticked him off so much in the moment, even humbly admitting he was wrong at times, and other times we agree to disagree (which he doesnt seem to allow in the heat of the moment - he wants control over me) . But I know he has the upmost Respect for me, even if we believe differently.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



SimplyAmorous said:


> I always know he will be back, and then share the underlying thing that royally ticked him off so much in the moment, even humbly admitting he was wrong at times, and other times we agree to disagree (which he doesnt seem to allow in the heat of the moment - he wants control over me) . But I know he has the upmost Respect for me,* and thinks I'm hot*, even if we believe differently.


Fixed. This is also why he keeps coming back.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo, that was very funny - and if I am being very honest here, this is part of it, but on a # of occasions , in fact just days ago at a huge Bonfire party we threw at our house, he told me that even though I am Hot, my intelligence is even MORE appealing, why he loves talking to me & haggling with me. 

Please know my husband is aware of all of this, and none of this is any concern. I know others would not agree, but we have been Great friends, the 3 of us, for over 18 yrs.


----------



## OhGeesh

nice777guy said:


> OhGeesh,
> 
> I felt the same way you do initially. I am by no means a full convert, but a lot of what is being said on this thread is filling in holes - answering questions that just made NO sense before.
> 
> I went back and read a few of your posts - please forgive me if I get this wrong -
> 
> You sound like a nice person - won't use caps or put in quotes. And after reading a few of your posts, your wife sounds nice also. You want more sex, and she isn't exactly on board with it.
> 
> Comparing your posts to the ones in this thread, I would question what your wife's response would be if you were to show a little more initiative - if you acted less like a nice person who would like something and more like a man who needs something.
> 
> I don't know how your conversations have gone, but instead of discussing your needs, are there ways you could do a better job of SHOWING her your needs. A slap on the rear, grabbing her hand to hold as you walk together in public, a passionate kiss when you or she come home at night, a dirty text sent at lunch, etc., etc.
> 
> One thing I am convinced of - just a few threads above - is that women claim to want one thing from a partner, but deep down they are attracted something much more primal.
> 
> Good luck.


I think those are great suggestions!! I hate to come off as arrogant, but that's the easy stuff that's the stuff that's been ongoing since we were dating!! I do see the point of "being alpha" no wife wants a doormat.....I do think it is greatly over exaggerated in this thread though.

The hard part is the conversations the real ones. The ones where you wonder what your partner is going to think when say "?????????". Since ours a few days ago she initiated twice.....YEAH!!! Sometimes I think she just needs reminding how important me knowing she wants sex too is.

For clarity the sex threads are like this......it's not the act of sex I need more of per se. It's the intensity of the sex and her being the aggressor. If I wanted I bet I could have sex 5-6 times a week my wife is "willing" to please me that much. If it wasn't sex it would be a handjob or blowjob.........again it's not the act.

It's me knowing that she "wants it" as much as I do. It's knowing she wants to explore as much as I do.....that cannot be taught. Either it's a real desire that comes from within or it's faked. We have explored a ton and bought our share from A&E.com again there is a difference between me bringing out a toy and her saying "go get me a toy" make sense?

I don't want it to be faked that takes away all the fun. I get my normal sex a couple times a week, my sex with toys a couple times a month, and my crazy wife blows my doors off sex once a month or so......I can't whine too much about that.

The slaps on the butt, sexy txts, rough stuff, been doing that for 20yrs now..............she hates being slapped on the butt too:rofl:


----------



## Deejo

SimplyAmorous said:


> Please know my husband is aware of all of this, and none of this is any concern. I know others would not agree, but we have been Great friends, the 3 of us, for over 18 yrs.


I'm Batman ... I sense trouble, and when people have something to hide. You are neither in trouble nor hiding anything. No wait ... well there _is that other thing_ ...


----------



## nice777guy

If you are getting sex 2-3 times a week after 20 years, then you must be doing something right. So many people on this board don't have sex 2-3 a month after 10 years or even less.



OhGeesh said:


> I think those are great suggestions!! I hate to come off as arrogant, but that's the easy stuff that's the stuff that's been ongoing since we were dating!! I do see the point of "being alpha" no wife wants a doormat.....I do think it is greatly over exaggerated in this thread though.
> 
> The hard part is the conversations the real ones. The ones where you wonder what your partner is going to think when say "?????????". Since ours a few days ago she initiated twice.....YEAH!!! Sometimes I think she just needs reminding how important me knowing she wants sex too is.
> 
> For clarity the sex threads are like this......it's not the act of sex I need more of per se. It's the intensity of the sex and her being the aggressor. If I wanted I bet I could have sex 5-6 times a week my wife is "willing" to please me that much. If it wasn't sex it would be a handjob or blowjob.........again it's not the act.
> 
> It's me knowing that she "wants it" as much as I do. It's knowing she wants to explore as much as I do.....that cannot be taught. Either it's a real desire that comes from within or it's faked. We have explored a ton and bought our share from A&E.com again there is a difference between me bringing out a toy and her saying "go get me a toy" make sense?
> 
> I don't want it to be faked that takes away all the fun. I get my normal sex a couple times a week, my sex with toys a couple times a month, and my crazy wife blows my doors off sex once a month or so......I can't whine too much about that.
> 
> The slaps on the butt, sexy txts, rough stuff, been doing that for 20yrs now..............she hates being slapped on the butt too:rofl:


----------



## nice777guy

SA - if you dress anything like your avatar, I would keep the arguments going and make nice with your husband too!


----------



## OhGeesh

nice777guy said:


> If you are getting sex 2-3 times a week after 20 years, then you must be doing something right. So many people on this board don't have sex 2-3 a month after 10 years or even less.


Yep that's the average! Our trick is communication, communication, communication, bending, putting others needs before our own, making sure the other knows that THEY are first! Not some car, house, job, friends, beer, partying, or anything She's my #1 and I'm her #1


----------



## SimplyAmorous

nice777guy said:


> SA - if you dress anything like your avatar, I would keep the arguments going and make nice with your husband too!


 No, I surely am not a Tease with short tight shirts & low cut tops in front of any of my friends, but to my husband when noone is around, I definetly could identify with the seductive skimpiness of this avatar I choose, oohhhhh yeesssss.


----------



## BigBadWolf

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*

Okay, I understand this is the issue between you and your man.

But here are more of my thoughts, as this post is too much to resist. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> I have "lived" this many many times with my religious male friend in "debate". He gets SOOO angry with me- cause I do not agree with him. I stand firm in my differing beliefs, sometimes he was seriously ready to blow his top, he has even left! I do not get real bothered by this, as I know he will come back around, I have even laughed at this behavior after he has left -like why does he let this bother him SO much !!


People wrap themselves and their identity very tightly in their religious beliefs.

To challenge these beliefs, often is like pulling the rug out from the identity a person has built on these beliefs assuming their beliefs being truth. 

It is essential for their identity to be valid, so this is why religious debates, they are mostly like a discussion that has no practical end. 



> I always know he will be back, and then share the underlying thing that royally ticked him off so much in the moment, even humbly admitting he was wrong at times, and other times we agree to disagree (which he doesnt seem to allow in the heat of the moment -


Sounds like harmless fun, until...



> he wants control over me) .


...this! Sounds a bit kinky, no? 



> But I know he has the upmost Respect for me, even if we believe differently.


Two questions.

The first, why do you care a whit of his respect? 

Are you seeking some emotional fulfillment from being respected by this man? 

If so, after spending time on this forum, is this not the kindling that leads to EA and PAs? 

This is the mere substance of my stance, that these "just friends" between men and women, they are more. Much more.

The second, and this is maybe tricky, but please consider this.

This "just friends" man, do you think he respects your husband?

To be engaging in passionate exchanges with his woman?

Knowing that his exchanges with you are an emotional enjoyment to you?

From the point of view of a man, I could answer that for you.

This is why, even from the first months of my wife and myself dating, these friendships she may have had with other young men, they were no more.

She was to seek her emotional fulfillment inside our relationship, and withdraw from these other young men.

The young men that persisted, dealt with me.

This is because, even at that time, I was a young man and knew what young men thought and why they did what they did.

To seek the attention of a woman, this was always for the sexual fulfillment, even if only in the mind and the ego. 

But sexual it is, non the less.


----------



## Conrad

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



Deejo said:


> Gotta say, I am often amazed at how people struggle with maintaining a respectful, assertive stance. Generally they either fold, or blow a gasket.


That's because they swallow it whole until they feel they cannot take it anymore.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



Conrad said:


> That's because they swallow it whole until they feel they cannot take it anymore.


Yet they feel that asserting how they feel, or what they think in that moment is somehow wrong or inappropriate - and will consistently get steamrolled by people who do not feel that way. It's unfortunate. If respect is what you are looking for, asserting oneself is the quickest route.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BigBadWolf said:


> People wrap themselves and their identity very tightly in their religious beliefs.
> 
> To challenge these beliefs, often is like pulling the rug out from the identity a person has built on these beliefs assuming their beliefs being truth.
> 
> It is essential for their identity to be valid, so this is why religious debates, they are mostly like a discussion that has no practical end.


 I agree with this. I know to some extent, he almost "needs" his beliefs, & that is fine, until he starts judging me to damnation. I do not just take that. I used to be where he is, so I understand him, but can never go back there. We all became friends a long long time ago in the Church. I have since lost those kind of fundamental beliefs. Thankfully, my husband has never been Religious. 

When I say he wants to "control me", I just mean he is insistent on converting me again. I have told him on a few occasions, when he gets unbearing, he can "dust off his feet", using scripture to say "why do you still come around here, biblically you should be moving on to more unsaved souls". 




BigBadWolf said:


> The first, why do you care a whit of his respect?
> 
> Are you seeking some emotional fulfillment from being respected by this man?


 I am not saying I do care about his Respect, I do believe I would miss him if he wasn't in our lives, but I am not going to force him out just because he is a guy, he has never pushed any boundaries to make either me or my husband uncomfortable. What I enjoy most about him is his Debating skills, we talk about many many things, he is also a reader like myself. And a writer. Keeps up on world events. He is a friend who challenges my mind. 

I have absolutely NO interest in him romantically. There is 2 things that were difficult (for me) in my marriage, 1) Infertility 2) when my sex drive skyrocketed & I questioned my husband's desire. I know I have mentioned on this forum how I was "undressing every man I seen out in public" for a time, (Sorry to be so blunt), my point here is >>> I was NOOOOOOTTTTT undressing this FRIEND !! Trust me when I say, absolutely NO chance of a EA or PA with him. He is not some playboy type either, very moral, he used to want to be a Preacher, this is not to say he does not fantasize or anything- I know he does, but He absolutely KNOWS his boundaries -in regards to me, my husband, our kids. We have seen him through different girlfriends, I have fixed him up before, etc. We do have RULES, HE ONLY COMES OVER WHEN MY HUSBAND IS HERE. Because of his morality, he once didn’t speak to us for months because we shared we were going to a Strip Club. He gave us all kinds of He** over that. 

I do agree with you, that IF I found him physically attractive , this would NOT be a good idea, even more so if my marriage was having problems -HUGE SLIPPERY SLOPE. Or if he had Obsessive tendencies, or his character was questionable. Things like these R definete RED FLAGS. I have said this on other threads. But this is so NOT the case here. I do not expect you to understand, but want to say my peace in the matter. 

You are someone who is VERY FIRM that a married woman is not even allowed to talk to another man, no social conversations. I may personally not agree with such "Control". It is good you are not my husband. I would feel confined by this belief- and untrusted. You feel Men & Woman will "abuse" a situation like this more than likely & of coarse I can not deny this happens in some weaker marraiges. Why I strongly believe all things should be weighed---- the TRUST you have in your spouse, the intimacy in your marriage, the TRUST in the friend, his mental stability, his history, his respectability. 

I want to compare something here ---I personally feel the "Taken in Hand" philosophy where the Man CONTROLS every aspect of his wife's life , I feel this can be easily "abused" . My husband allowing me male friends, You controllling your wife to any extent you feel necessary. *You and I are both in a position to ABUSE these precious "freedoms" our spouses allow us.* Does that mean we do -- absolutely NOT ! Could we? Sure- we've been handed the freedom. The Fact that we DON'T speaks volumes. Do I want to Trample on this trust -
-- Could I live with myself if I did - I say NO!! 

My husband TRUSTS me, and YOUR Wife TRUSTS you. It is a beautiful thing. Have we not earned this kind of Deep Abounding trust after all these years of marital happiness? Nobody knows me better than my husband. I tend to be an open book with many, but NOONE knows my soul like he does, he knows my deepest fears, my greatest joys & things others will never see. HE KNOWS MY HEART, and HE knows only he has it's key. No man is a threat to him. 

If I EVER cheated on my husband or broke that beautiful trust, you better believe that he has the RIGHT, even Obligation to make me accountable, to demand I live as you treat your wife and I would agree with him!! When much has been Given, much is expected in return. He gives me much freedom, he has my faithfulness & honesty in return.

If for a moment he questioned this, you better be sure he would have a problem. I have been with my husband for 21 yrs +++ , never held another man's hand, never kissed another. I was even a virgin when we married. My history bears what kind of woman I am, as his history bears what kind of man he is. I also have zero qualms if my women friends are even alone with my husband, which has happened on occasion if I had to run out somewhere & they were at my house or he went to fix their vehicle. I KNOW who his heart belongs too, these things are so NOT a threat to me. 

Now, True, sometimes the way I talk would give men & women pause I suppose, but that is just because of my Open nature. I have a book on my shelves entitled "Me & My Big Mouth", there is a reason for this. Please forgive me, we all have our faults in life. There is simply no mistaking where you stand with me though. I am assertive enough to make that very clear if even a hint of something might be brewing. 



BigBadWolf said:


> This "just friends" man, do you think he respects your husband?
> 
> To be engaging in passionate exchanges with his woman?
> 
> Knowing that his exchanges with you are an emotional enjoyment to you?


 He absolutely has the Upmost REPSECT for my husband. He would never come to our house again if my husband asked that of him. I know this. He understands & honors our boundaries. 

I suppose one could call them emotional enjoyments. Sometimes Roller Coaster enjoyments. And yes, I am "passionate" about these things, I also enjoy playing "Devil's Advocate" many times. Heck, so do you BBW! Come on now. You could not resist questioning me on this subject. You are aiming to get at some deep dark root or issue I may have to why I simply enjoy these interactions with a male friend. If he was a woman, this would be no concern. Perfectly fine. 

Do we not all have our hobbies in life ?? This is simply mine. Men love sports, If they found a woman fan, they would be cheering along side with her, all caught up in the heat of the moment, they might even exchange a lively debate over Ben Rothesburger if given a chance. 

I am not into sports, I am into talking about History, Religion, even Politics sometimes, the more controverisal the better, man or woman, I could care less. I like to have my mind challenged, picked, prodded. Oftentimes this helps me learn about myself! Even writing on these forums has been enlightening to me, others asking questions, challenging me. Love it !! 

If a guy talks to me in a decent environment, lets say Church (NOT BARS), I do not shy away from such conversations. This by no means speaks something is missing in my marriage. My Husband has a couple hobbies, they are "manly" things but not my cup of tea. Neither is my conversational feats his particular cup of tea. He is happy just listening, sometimes interjecting an amusing dry humored comment that causes us to almost roll on the floor in laughter. Believe me, we have enough other greatly shared interests to keep us quite happy & totally fullfilled. I even debate him sometimes, but he is simply not UP on things, the way some of my other friends are. 





BigBadWolf said:


> To seek the attention of a woman, this was always for the sexual fulfillment, even if only in the mind and the ego.
> 
> But sexual it is, non the less.


 I do not doubt that my attention to this male friend strokes his ego some. I can not help what men think, imagine, dream & fantasize, so long as they keep it in their pants & fully understand the boundaries spoken & RESPECT them, I just don’t see a problem. I understand most guys are pigs. This will BE until the end of time. That is basically what you are saying here. But to end all contact cause of this, even with a good history of almost 2 decades, that is simply overkill to me.


----------



## greenpearl

SA, 

I believe this kind of friendship exists. If the man has high moral standards, he won't treat you disrespectfully. And don't forget, your friendship with him is all out in the public, not secretly, he is your husband's friend also. 

BBW has his point too. If a man without high moral standards wants to engage in conversation with a gorgeous woman, then his motivation is not that sincere. I believe, men are still men, they use their little brothers to think when they see pretty women. 

I long for male friendship, I enjoy talking to men, but in my real life, I don't talk to men. On forums, I had got myself into trouble, I was naive to believe that it is OK to be with friends on the Internet, I didn't set up boundaries. Men who I talked to on a Chinese forum were only interested in me for my sexual side, not the wisdom side, which made me feel vary sad, I wanted to talk to them about life, but all they wanted to talk was sex. I had to stop going there because it went too far. My husband said if everything is out on the forum, it is OK. My husband is a MAN, he knows what's going on in a man's head. That's why on my profile, I say that I don't feel comfortable answering private messages from men. It is learned from former experience. It is also my husband's protection for me. He doesn't mind me talking to men out on the forum about sex and life, he knows that there are a lot of things in my head. He likes it that I share our sex life with people, you can call him a sick bastard here, but his only request is out in the public. I love my husband so much that I do whatever he requests. I would love to have male friends, but talking to them out on the forum is enough for me and it gives the friends and me and our marriages a lot of protection. 

But you are lucky, you can have a close male friend in your life. I don't know how often this can happen. It is also like happy marriages, there are happy marriages, but how many there?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

greenpearl said:


> SA,
> 
> I believe this kind of friendship exists. If the man has high moral standards, he won't treat you disrespectfully. And don't forget, your friendship with him is all out in the public, not secretly, he is your husband's friend also.
> 
> BBW has his point too. If a man without high moral standards wants to engage in conversation with a gorgeous woman, then his motivation is not that sincere. I believe, men are still men, they use their little brothers to think when they see pretty women.


 Thank you very much GreenPearl, I know in your culture this is totally forbidden, but still you long for it to some extent. I am so happy you found THIS wonderful forum to be able to do this kind of thing in the boundaries that your husband allows & feels comfortable with. I don't feel he is sick at all, I think he is being a good husband to allow you this freedom on forums. 

I never trusted guys when I was younger, maybe I was not so niave as others, if they flirted, I wanted nothing to do with them, I never trusted any of their BS. I pretty much from the beginning told them all they would have to put a ring on my finger before getting into my pants. I was even shy back then but assertive enough to set MY boundaries-very clear. My husband was one of the few who stuck around. So I pretty much sifted those who truly cared about me from those who had simply LUST on thier minds. 

I was hoping I explained my reasoning for my husband's allowance of these things. Coming from YOU Greenpearl, becaues of the forbiddeness, that just means alot. 

 We mostly hang with couples in real life, but we obviously have our divorced & now single again friends, Male & Female, all of them are friends with US BOTH. This is an absolute must.


----------



## greenpearl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Thank you very much GreenPearl, I know in your culture this is totally forbidden, but still you long for it to some extent. I am so happy you found THIS wonderful forum to be able to do this kind of thing in the boundaries that your husband allows & feels comfortable with. I don't feel he is sick at all, I think he is being a good husband to allow you this freedom on forums.
> 
> I never trusted guys when I was younger, maybe I was not so niave as others, if they flirted, I wanted nothing to do with them, I never trusted any of their BS. I pretty much from the beginning told them all they would have to put a ring on my finger before getting into my pants. I was even shy back then but assertive enough to set MY boundaries-very clear. My husband was one of the few who stuck around. So I pretty much sifted those who truly cared about me from those who had simply LUST on thier minds.
> 
> I was hoping I explained my reasoning for my husband's allowance of these things. Coming from YOU Greenpearl, becaues of the forbiddeness, that just means alot.
> 
> We mostly hang with couples in real life, but we obviously have our divorced & now single again friends, Male & Female, all of them are friends with US BOTH. This is an absolute must.


My husband has registered an account here, but he doesn't like to talk about his feelings out in public with people. He reserves all that for me. BBW, MEM, and a lot of good people are here trying hard to help, I won't try to pester him too much to come to the forum and share his opinion. Tell you honestly, he is just another BBW or another MEM. 

I know having close friends means a lot to us, we have happy marriages, but we still need to expand our world, you are lucky to have a happy marriage and many good friends. It is related to your personality. When I was young, my mother was very secluded, so I never knew how to get along with people. I had been busy for so many years trying to put my life in order so I didn't notice this void until older. My husband also grew up on a Canadian farm, he is not a people person either. He likes to go to his hobby forums and pester people there. We are both far away from our families, so very often I do feel that our world is very small, I have accepted it as my life, I don't feel bad anymore. 

Just remember, you have a happy marriage and a happy life. Nobody is the same, if what you are doing is giving you peace, then it is right.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> W3 is my second choice. Less pain, but less pleasure than W4. W4 is my first choice - *****iness and all. The over the top behavior is more than offset (for me) by the raw, edgy reality of being so deep inside someone else's head that the boundaries between the two of you tend to completely blur out. Plus having a partner who is consistently mixing the soft, loving, gentle stuff with the intense, rough harsh stuff is utterly fascinating.


 I was at Barnes & Noble the other day browsing & this book caught my eye >>> Amazon.com: Why Men Love *****es: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship (9781580627566): Sherry Argov: Books


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> I agree with this. I know to some extent, he almost "needs" his beliefs, & that is fine, until he starts judging me to damnation. I do not just take that.



Judging to damnation? And this is a person good to be around? 




> I am not saying I do care about his Respect, I do believe I would miss him if he wasn't in our lives, but I am not going to force him out just because he is a guy, he has never pushed any boundaries to make either me or my husband uncomfortable.


If your husband is truly not uncomfortable, I understand.

But what is he was uncomfortable, but merely did not want to appear jealous, or enrage you, or make you think he is too controlling, or not trusting?

This is merely the thing, as a man, I know how I would feel.

If your husband is not feeling these things, then that is well and good of course.

Also you have mentioned this friend only comes around with your husband present. So is he your husband's friend then? 

If so, then I would agree with this.



> What I enjoy most about him is his Debating skills, we talk about many many things, he is also a reader like myself. And a writer. Keeps up on world events. He is a friend who challenges my mind.


These skills in a man, are you saying they are attractive, maybe only though emotionally?



> I have absolutely NO interest in him romantically. There is 2 things that were difficult (for me) in my marriage, 1) Infertility 2) when my sex drive skyrocketed & I questioned my husband's desire. I know I have mentioned on this forum how I was "undressing every man I seen out in public" for a time, (Sorry to be so blunt), my point here is >>> I was NOOOOOOTTTTT undressing this FRIEND !! Trust me when I say, absolutely NO chance of a EA or PA with him.


I am understand for some reason or another, this man is not sexually attractive to you. Correct?



> He is not some playboy type either, very moral, he used to want to be a Preacher,


In so many churches, with moral men and women and even Preachers as well, the sexual escapades that I am privy to from my own experiences I could write a book. 

So I hear what you are saying, but to me, someone wrapped tightly with the cover of some religious beliefs, to me merely means they are worth extra scrutiny.



> this is not to say he does not fantasize or anything- I know he does,


Of course he does. 

But how exactly do you "know he does" ?  



> but He absolutely KNOWS his boundaries -in regards to me, my husband, our kids. We have seen him through different girlfriends, I have fixed him up before, etc. We do have RULES, HE ONLY COMES OVER WHEN MY HUSBAND IS HERE. Because of his morality, he once didn’t speak to us for months because we shared we were going to a Strip Club. He gave us all kinds of He** over that.


Again, if the boundries are set and understood, then perhaps this is the best we, as men and women alike, can do in these situations. 



> I do agree with you, that IF I found him physically attractive , this would NOT be a good idea, even more so if my marriage was having problems -HUGE SLIPPERY SLOPE. Or if he had Obsessive tendencies, or his character was questionable. Things like these R definete RED FLAGS. I have said this on other threads. But this is so NOT the case here.


Recognizing it is a slippery slope, on this marriage forum, that is the beneficial reason to even discuss these things actually.

A women will say "just friends", and yes a man will say "just friends." 

Let us agree that anyone reading these posts, to put away naive thinking and instead be establishing these "boundries" that are necessary for the "just friends" scenarios. 



> I do not expect you to understand, but want to say my peace in the matter.


I understand what you are saying.

But my point, again not to be naive. 

A man is not going to relate to a woman as he would a man. Nor will a woman relate to a man as she would a women.

Sexual chemistry, between any man or woman, it is not simply on or off with a flick of a switch! 



> You are someone who is VERY FIRM that a married woman is not even allowed to talk to another man, no social conversations.


To be fair, this is not 100 percent accurate.

My wife, she is speaking to men in her social circles, and the internet all the time, as am I.

But we speak openly and honestly about our requirements, and she knowing how jealous I am, has made it all too clear that she loves and craves this jealousy.

And I have found out, how much she sees my jealousy of her in a sexual way, and when I am expressing this jealousy in the ways I am known to do, I do not get a "you need to trust me" or "you're too controlling" speech, I get her rewarding me for my jealousy.

In this way, it is clear how she is feeling about this matter. 






> I may personally not agree with such "Control". It is good you are not my husband. I would feel confined by this belief- and untrusted. You feel Men & Woman will "abuse" a situation like this more than likely & of coarse I can not deny this happens in some weaker marraiges. Why I strongly believe all things should be weighed---- the TRUST you have in your spouse, the intimacy in your marriage, the TRUST in the friend, his mental stability, his history, his respectability.


I was this way from the beginning, and my woman had always known this as I never shied from expressing my fierce jealousy, then of course, it is easy to see my woman is aggreeable with my jealousy.

For just this, asking a woman her opinion about something before she is experiencing it, this depends on many things.

For early in our relatinship during dating, I was in physical altercations with several young men who spoke or otherwise behaved inappropriately to my now wife, and never backed down to correct the behavior of anyone I felt mistreating or disrespecting her.

Understand this, never in any of these times was it "too controlling" or "not trusting", it is just this, basic masculine sexual desire, that as a man I will defend, protect, and provide for my woman. 

A woman will respond to this sort of display very sexually.

Now, if I were to have be timid in these areas, to allow her to feel I was indifferent to other male attention, or in any way communicating that I was not jealous, and then from the blue to require her to give an account of herself or behave this way or that, then to this there would be no woman that should accept that, for her man is not behaving consistent, and these words do not match up to the actions. 

Such behavior from a man would not have won the opportunity from his woman for such accepting. 

This is my opinion, and on it from my own experience, there is not a single doubt in my mind, if my woman felt confined or untrusted, then there is some part of her she is with holding, because of something I am needing to be done.

For it is not some guessing game to my wife, she knows of my jealousy, it is steadfast and consistent, and yes, she can use it to her advantage easy enough! 

For when she wants to see a reaction from me, to get attention or sexual connection or even for simple fun, she is quick to drop a mention of some situation, or some flirting, or something that some other man did or said to her, to push my buttons.

Do not imagine my wife is cowering in a corner in any sense, she is relishing her place in our relationship, relishing my attentiveness and jealousy of her, and she is quick to say or do whatever she feels to say or do in the world. 

But knowing how I will always be, she has expressed this means the world to her.

Unpredictability, inattentiveness, indifference, apathy, when a man communicates these to his woman, this is the road to insecurity and misery. 

When the good man is bold and confident to express his jealousy to his woman, this is the path to sexual security together. 



> I want to compare something here ---I personally feel the "Taken in Hand" philosophy where the Man CONTROLS every aspect of his wife's life , I feel this can be easily "abused" .


"Taken in Hand" is much like any philosophy, it can be very structured as I can understand.

In my own marriage, there are the sexual dynamics that are the same, but the structure only from my responsibility and leadership, and so it is not, as you may imagine, controlling all aspects. Not at all.

Sexual, absolutely. 




> My husband allowing me male friends,


IF you and your husband's eyes wide opened, then not a problem correct? 



> You controllling your wife to any extent you feel necessary.


These things I am responsible for, "control", nothing of them that haven't been given to me by my wife as her gift.  

And nothing she has given, that she does not receive the benefit from, her own intense sexual arousal perhaps the most striking.




> *You and I are both in a position to ABUSE these precious "freedoms" our spouses allow us.* Does that mean we do -- absolutely NOT ! Could we? Sure- we've been handed the freedom. The Fact that we DON'T speaks volumes. Do I want to Trample on this trust -
> -- Could I live with myself if I did - I say NO!!


I would not disagree on any of this.

But, I will ask, would it light your sexual fire for your man to express fierce jealousy over any man's attention to you, and especially your attention to other men?

I am asking this, because know there are many good men, who suppress their own jealousy, thinking their women want them to be more trusting.

When the reality is, a woman often tests her man, to say things like I'm "just friends" with this other man, when deep inside it would light her fire to no end to see her man stand up to her to say "enough of this nonsense, you are all mine!". 



> My husband TRUSTS me, and YOUR Wife TRUSTS you. It is a beautiful thing. Have we not earned this kind of Deep Abounding trust after all these years of marital happiness? Nobody knows me better than my husband. I tend to be an open book with many, but NOONE knows my soul like he does, he knows my deepest fears, my greatest joys & things others will never see. HE KNOWS MY HEART, and HE knows only he has it's key. No man is a threat to him.


Would it not be sexual for your man to show in his actions, that he desires you fiercely?

For apathy is not sexual.

Selfish desire is sexual.

The word we call "Trust", is this not looking like "apathy", somewhat like "boring," and nothing like "selfish desire"?



> If I EVER cheated on my husband or broke that beautiful trust, you better believe that he has the RIGHT, even Obligation to make me accountable, to demand I live as you treat your wife and I would agree with him!! When much has been Given, much is expected in return. He gives me much freedom, he has my faithfulness & honesty in return.


My position, is the happy marriage, and the marriage recovering from the worst damaging affair or neglect possible, looks much the same in behavior.

The man gives himself completely to the attention of his woman, his woman gives herself completly to the attention of her man.

Anything less than this, well, do not we all choose how much passion we want by how willing and able we are to express our desires from the opposite sex?



> If for a moment he questioned this, you better be sure he would have a problem. I have been with my husband for 21 yrs +++ , never held another man's hand, never kissed another. I was even a virgin when we married. My history bears what kind of woman I am, as his history bears what kind of man he is. I also have zero qualms if my women friends are even alone with my husband, which has happened on occasion if I had to run out somewhere & they were at my house or he went to fix their vehicle. I KNOW who his heart belongs too, these things are so NOT a threat to me.


Being alone with a female, sure this is okay.

But of female friendships, with passionate and emotional debates and exchanges, would you be happy and content with your husband to have this such relationship with another woman? 



> He absolutely has the Upmost REPSECT for my husband. He would never come to our house again if my husband asked that of him. I know this. He understands & honors our boundaries.


So in this, has your husband given you even the slightest hint that he is "watching" this man, or in any way hinted that he would at least challenge this man if things were not to his liking? 



> I suppose one could call them emotional enjoyments. Sometimes Roller Coaster enjoyments. And yes, I am "passionate" about these things, I also enjoy playing "Devil's Advocate" many times. Heck, so do you BBW! Come on now. You could not resist questioning me on this subject. You are aiming to get at some deep dark root or issue I may have to why I simply enjoy these interactions with a male friend.


Not to be trite, but I am coming to think this man is simply not a friend.

With so many boundries in place, anyway.

The point, with any man/woman interactoin, to have both eyes wide open, this is the way to avoid the EA/PA situation.



> If he was a woman, this would be no concern. Perfectly fine.


Of course.

Are there no women to debate religion with?



> I do not doubt that my attention to this male friend strokes his ego some. I can not help what men think, imagine, dream & fantasize, so long as they keep it in their pants & fully understand the boundaries spoken & RESPECT them, I just don’t see a problem.


Again, with both eyes open, this is for the best in these situations, to minimize the problems. 



> I understand most guys are pigs. This will BE until the end of time. That is basically what you are saying here.


A woman, who craves emotional fulfillment and attention, much like a man craves sexual fullfillment and attention, to assume one is more a pig than the other is to maybe miss the point. 




> But to end all contact cause of this, even with a good history of almost 2 decades, that is simply overkill to me.


On this, I would agree. 

To end contact, not the point.

To blissfully think, "It's great for men and women to be friends", this is to be avoided.

And really, your opinion to me is like this: 

You say men and women friends are okay, and speak of your religion debate "friend."

But then, we learn to understand that it is not without boundries, that your husband must be home, that you are not attracted to him, that if you were attracted to him it is a different story, etc etc etc.

So what are we to conclude, that surely such addendums are not requirements if your "friend" was female?

So, the question, is this man really a "friend"?


----------



## MEM2020

OG,
You are way ahead of us on the "yelling screaming" argument count. As for this whole social dominance thing, I am not sure what other people think when they hear "dominance" but I sure know what I mean by it. 

My definition: To have a larger amount of influence on the outcome of a "situation" than anyone other participant. 

I have zero desire to dominate a "person". 

At work I lead in my areas of expertise. I am quite comfortable following, learning in the presence of greater skill/knowledge. As for the leading/dominance part, this is 80 percent purely based on work skill, 15 percent based on sharing credit, complimenting others for their contributions, etc, and 5 percent on asking people who are hell bent on doing something stupid if they are willing to take full responsibility for the outcome. 

BTW - you loosely connected dominance/alpha and yelling screaming. Yelling and screaming are NOT dominant/alpha behaviors unless you live in a physically/emotionally abusive marriage. 

In fact, when you watch very successful people you will realize they are very skilled at controlling their own emotions. So yelling and screaming are the opposite of what they are about. How can you possibly hope to influence/control a situation when you can't even control yourself. 

FWIW I didn't ask anyone to rate themselves - I asked them to rate their current/previous partners. Note how everyone without hesitation did so? This factor - this level of aggression is a huge driver in how we interact. 



OhGeesh said:


> Wow.....another form of putting people in a box.....I think this poll is a crock too along with the domination principle nothing more than fancy wordplay. Domination should = loving, caring, honest, focused, forthright, loyal, etc etc etc Domination for the sake of saying I'm Alpha is a crock.
> 
> 
> This poll is the same.........my wife is a self proclaimed conflict avoider aka people pleaser. She will go out of her way to make others happy I am very much the same especially in my family's case. I willingly and 99% of the time happily sacrifice so others can have more of ____________(fill in the blank). Even though we both try to please others we are both (especially her) gut wrenchingly honest because we both want happiness for others and those around us there is no conflict. We bend, we compromise, we sacrifice for the well being of others. I can count on 1 hand the amount of "yelling" arguments we've had since we got married over 12Yrs+ ago!!
> 
> As far as how any of this correlates to the bedroom.....good luck with trying to connect those dots:lol:


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*

SA,
I bet he has a crush on you. And thats ok as long as he keeps it to himself.....






SimplyAmorous said:


> I have "lived" this many many times with my religious male friend in "debate". He gets SOOO angry with me- cause I do not agree with him. I stand firm in my differing beliefs, sometimes he was seriously ready to blow his top, he has even left! I do not get real bothered by this, as I know he will come back around, I have even laughed at this behavior after he has left -like why does he let this bother him SO much !!
> 
> I always know he will be back, and then share the underlying thing that royally ticked him off so much in the moment, even humbly admitting he was wrong at times, and other times we agree to disagree (which he doesnt seem to allow in the heat of the moment - he wants control over me) . But I know he has the upmost Respect for me, even if we believe differently.


----------



## greenpearl

I wouldn't want my husband to have any close female friends. My husband likes coffee, not just drinking coffee, he likes making coffee and roasting coffee beans. He used to go to this coffee shop, and the owner is a woman. They have good conversation together talking about coffee stuff, and sometimes my husband sent her emails asking to buy coffee beans. My husband's email account is open to me, one time I saw one email was not about asking coffee, it was talking about something else. I went to her shop with my husband a few times, I could sense she wasn't very nice to me. I got very upset and forbid my husband from talking to that woman again. He stopped going to that coffee shop for his coffee beans, my price was to buy him a coffee bean roaster. I am very glad that my husband didn't tell me that it was OK for him to talk to women privately. That woman was very sad when my husband told her he was going to roast his own beans. I don't care.

So for the same reason, when my husband block my forum and shut down my email account, I didn't say anything. 

But my situation was different, those men had other intention. I asked them not to talk about sexual stuff privately, they didn't listen. They didn't respect me or my husband. What they got was I disappeared. 

Maybe in western countries, it is OK to have friends not the same sex. In eastern culture, it is not common. After a woman or a man is married, they stop associating with the opposite sex, unless couple with couple. Or woman with woman, man with man. 

But some women are hurt by their close female friends, her husband got interested in her friend. That's double betrayal. 

Never let your female friends near your husband. 

OH MAN. I hate people who cheat!!!!!


----------



## nice777guy

GP - I think it works sometimes - having friends of the opposite sex.

One thing that makes SA's situation a bit different is that both she and her husband have known this guy for a long time. SA's friend sounds like a "friend of the marriage."

I doubt he's still biding his time after 18 years - we men are not that patient!!!


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> GP - I think it works sometimes - having friends of the opposite sex.
> 
> One thing that makes SA's situation a bit different is that both she and her husband have known this guy for a long time. SA's friend sounds like a "friend of the marriage."
> 
> I doubt he's still biding his time after 18 years - we men are not that patient!!!


I agree it can happen in western culture. 

I do feel that in western culture, men have more respect for women. But in eastern culture, men don't respect women like western men do. we are taught not to be close to the opposite sex. I don't even feel comfortable sitting beside my brother-in-law. I never try to be close to men in my real life.

I started going to forums in May this year, after some unpleasant incidents, I learned even more about Chinese men. I learned it is right not to be close to men. It is OK if all the conversation is being watched by others, never ever privately.


----------



## Deejo

*Why do Women Leave Men?*

Hmmm ... this all sounds somehow familiar ... can't quite put my finger on where I've heard this stuff before ... for free, no less 

Courtesy of author David DeAngelo, author of "Double Your Dating"

We can banter back and forth ad nauseum that being assertive, confident, dominant, alpha, is misguided, crap, or stereotypes. I'm fine with that. Results may vary ...

My goal is to be a better, more attractive partner whether I'm with someone or not. There are distinct skills and tools involved in being better at relationships. 'Be yourself' doesn't help much if 'yourself', consistently runs into the same issues. 



> Why do women leave men? Interesting question, isn't it ?
> 
> We've all had women leave us...
> 
> And we've all been in the situation, wondering why she was leaving... and willing to do literally ANYTHING to get her to stay.
> 
> Read the following scenarios, and nod your head silently if you can identify with any of them:
> 
> * You met an incredible woman, and you really hit it off at the beginning. But the more time you spent with her, the less interested she became... but the MORE interested you became. You could feel the balance of power shifting, but there was nothing you could do about it. Eventually she just stopped seeing you, but she never explained why in a way that made any sense...
> * You were seeing a woman for several months, maybe even a year or so. Everything seemed fine. But then one day she came to you and said "I don't know how I feel anymore, and I just need some time ALONE... some time to 'find myself'... it's not YOU, it's ME"... but her time "alone" turned into her seeing some other guy that didn't treat her half as well as you did...
> * You were in a serious long-term relationship that had lasted more than a couple of years, and you were with the woman you thought you'd spend the rest of your life with. Sure, you had your problems, but you knew that you'd always work through whatever came up, and she would stick by your side forever. Out of nowhere, she started acting strange... she started to become more controlling and angry... no matter how hard you tried to make her feel better and do nice things, it only got worse. Then she dropped the bomb that she didn't love you anymore, and she was leaving. Or maybe she cheated on you, then told you as her way of breaking up...
> 
> ...of course, there are a million variations of these basic situations, but I'll bet you can identify with one of them.
> 
> I can identify with ALL of them. In fact, I've been through each of them... some more than once.
> 
> And I'll tell you... I can remember the PAIN and the DESPERATION I felt each time.
> 
> I mean, it SUCKED. I hated it.
> 
> Probably the WORST part of it was the feeling of POWERLESSNESS that went along with each time.
> 
> It's bad enough having the woman you like or love leave you... but to have to ALSO deal with the fact that you don't know how to change things, and there's NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT is just plain depressing.
> 
> Again, if you've been there, nod silently with me...
> 
> Now let's talk about how to AVOID this kind of thing in the future.
> 
> 
> THE PROBLEM ISN'T WHAT YOU THINK
> 
> The first thing you must realize in this type of situation is that the problem you're dealing with isn't what you think it is.
> 
> Most guys naturally assume that the woman is leaving them because he's not being "nice" enough, or he's not giving her what she wants, or he's not being a good boyfriend... etc.
> 
> Or they assume that this is just "one of those things that happens", that "feelings change" and that there's really nothing he could have done anyway.
> 
> Well, these ideas, and almost all the others that most guys think, are DEAD WRONG.
> 
> So STEP ONE is for you to realize that what you THINK you know is WRONG. Throw it out.
> 
> Start over, and open your mind to a new way of seeing things. I'll share more on this later.
> 
> 
> YOU CAN'T SOLVE IT WITH MORE OF THE SAME
> 
> Now I want to talk about what NOT to do.
> 
> I know that this is going to sound pretty obvious, but if what you're doing isn't working in a particular situation, you need to STOP.
> 
> Don't keep doing what's not working.
> 
> In other words, if the woman you love is breaking up with you, and you've been being nice to her, doing whatever she wants, and telling her that you'll do anything to make it better... if only she'll stay... then STOP.
> 
> Stop doing that.
> 
> Whatever it is you're doing that isn't working ISN'T WORKING. Duh.
> 
> So stop it immediately.
> 
> More of the same is only going to get you more of what is happening.
> 
> 
> WHY ATTRACTION IS SO IMPORTANT
> 
> One of the main reasons why I talk about and teach the concept of ATTRACTION is that when it comes to these types of situations, the REAL underlying reason for them is usually that the woman doesn't feel ATTRACTION anymore.
> 
> When it all boils down, she just plain does not FEEL IT.
> 
> Now, a woman will say and do all kinds of things OTHER than telling you that this is the problem.
> 
> Women have all these ideas in their heads like "I can't tell him how I REALLY feel because I don't want to hurt his feelings" and "I can't tell him what's going on because I don't want to emasculate him" and "It's just easier if I just go away". Love it.
> 
> But when you take away all of the B.S., and you get right to the core of what's going on, you'll usually find that it all boils down to ATTRACTION... or, more specifically, the LACK of ATTRACTION.
> 
> I'm going to say something that's pretty bold right now. Get ready.
> 
> If you do not know how to make a woman feel the GUT LEVEL physical and emotional response called ATTRACTION, then you are going to be out of control in relationships, and will very likely have women leave you for the rest of your life.
> 
> There is no security when you don't "get it" in the ATTRACTION department.
> 
> And you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
> 
> Women KNOW that they have the upper hand with most men.
> 
> As a guy, you can FEEL IT when a woman "has you by the balls".
> 
> And even if she's not evil or mean, a woman can still crush you emotionally when she's in this powerful position.
> 
> Well, guess what?
> 
> YOU'RE THE ONE WHO GIVES HER THIS POWER.
> 
> And if you choose, you can KEEP this power for YOURSELF.
> 
> 
> SOLVE THE PROBLEM BEFORE IT STARTS
> 
> Now, the BEST way to deal with this particular problem is to SOLVE it BEFORE it even starts.
> 
> The absolute most important prevention method is an understanding of female psychology and ATTRACTION.
> 
> Here are a few pointers to get you started:
> 
> 1) Women are NEVER attracted to WUSSIES.
> 
> Women don't feel ATTRACTION for weak men.
> 
> Sure, if you chase a woman for long enough, and buy her enough things, she may "fall" for you. But in that case it's not because she feels ATTRACTION for you. OHHHHH NO. It's because she feels AFFECTION for you, and she confuses it with ATTRACTION.
> 
> So if your Inner Wussy has been taking the wheel, EVICT IT! *****-slap the Wuss out of yourself. Do it now.
> 
> 2) Don't be PREDICTABLE.
> 
> Predictability is a mortal sin when it comes to attraction.
> 
> If a woman can guess what you're going to do or say, you're being predictable.
> 
> If she CAN'T guess what you're going to do or say, she'll always be wondering...
> 
> Now, keep in mind that women are MUCH better at predicting behavior than men.
> 
> So if you're going to stop being predictable, then you're going to need to LEARN how.
> 
> To begin with, PAUSE before you do and say things. Think about what you'd normally do, then DO SOMETHING ELSE.
> 
> Throw in some crazy, off-the-wall stuff for good measure.
> 
> Predictable is BAD BAD BAD for business.
> 
> 3) Don't be BORING.
> 
> Boring is the bastard child of Predictable.
> 
> When you are SO predictable that NOTHING is new or different, then you are officially BORING.
> 
> Boring is also the lack of adventure, passion, energy, humor, and ATTRACTION.
> 
> Unfortunately, most men are REALLY REALLY REALLLLLLLLLLLLY boring.
> 
> I mean like shoot-yourself boring.
> 
> Like, if there was a "Boring Score" that took into account everything from food to clothing to interests to conversation, most men would score a 99.75 on a 100 scale.
> 
> It's a bad situation.
> 
> I used to be pretty damn boring myself, so boring, in fact, that I could probably be certified as an expert on the topic.
> 
> So take it from me, BORING is BAD.
> 
> I don't care WHAT you have to do to stop being boring, but do it.
> 
> A few quick ideas:
> 
> Take up an interesting hobby. Think wine collecting, not comic book collecting.
> 
> Mountain biking, not chemistry.
> 
> Fashion, not X-Box.
> 
> You feel me?
> 
> Now, this is just a taste.
> 
> More important than what you do and talk about is HOW you do it and talk about it.
> 
> There is a way to communicate with women that prevents you from being boring. I suggest that you pay attention to the things you're learning from me so you "get it".
> 
> 
> IF THINGS GET BAD, BREAK UP FIRST
> 
> Now I'm going to REALLY stick my neck out.
> 
> This one is going to make the little baby hairs stand up on the backs of necks of women all over the world...
> 
> If you find yourself in one of these bad situations that I mentioned above, and you sense that the woman in your life is about to leave, then BREAK UP WITH HER FIRST.
> 
> DO IT.
> 
> Don't hesitate.
> 
> Cut the line.
> 
> Hit the road.
> 
> No matter what your emotions tell you to do, you have to end it FIRST.
> 
> If you want to have ANY chance of having things work out in the LONG RUN, then you need to TAKE CONTROL of the situation, and BREAK UP WITH HER.
> 
> From this position, you will then be able to see things more clearly, and she will be about 100 times more likely to want to work things out with you.
> 
> If you REALLY want to increase your chances of having things work out, then you should also start dating other women as well.
> 
> But let's not talk too much about that, because I'm already in the danger zone here.
> 
> If you take the time to think about it, you'll realize that breaking up with her FIRST is the best possible thing you can do.
> 
> As you've heard me say quite a few times, it's important to give a woman the GIFT of MISSING YOU.
> 
> Never is it more important than in one of THESE situations.
> 
> I know, this is a damn hard thing to do when you're in the heat of the moment... but if you don't do it, you'll probably wind up with her leaving... and you feeling that lame POWERLESS feeling that I described earlier.
> 
> OK, so to wrap, let me talk about one more thing...
> 
> As I mentioned before, the REAL thing that causes women to LEAVE comes down to the man in her life not understanding ATTRACTION and how to make her FEEL IT for him.
> 
> And, as I mentioned, no woman is EVER going to TELL this to you.
> 
> Instead, she's just going to LEAVE.
> 
> When I first started learning all of this stuff about how to be successful with women and dating, I had NO IDEA that I would wind up solving the mystery of why women LEAVE men.
> 
> I was only looking for the answer to how to get a woman in the first place... I never even thought about KEEPING one once I got her...
> 
> But now I realize that this particular topic usually winds up being the most important one, because once you find that amazing woman, and get something good going, you certainly don't want to LOSE her.
> 
> And when you find yourself in the situation, and you realize that the woman you have is about to leave... you would basically do ANYTHING to stop it.
> 
> Of course, at that point it's usually TOO LATE to do anything... which sucks.
> 
> So one of the most important things you can do RIGHT NOW in your life is to learn how and why women feel ATTRACTION for some men... and how to make women feel it for you.
> 
> And what's the best way to do it?


 Short answer ... buy my program. I wish the author luck, but I think I'm good.


----------



## BigBadWolf

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> I bet he has a crush on you. And thats ok as long as he keeps it to himself.....



Okay, so MEM11363 can say in less than 20 words what I have to type out the short novel.

My brevity, I'm must work on it.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*

BBW,
Your message is much more artfully phrased. Let me share my rules for male/female "friendships" when you are married. The rules are all critical but they are listed most important first:

1. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone YOU are attracted to even if you try to convince yourself that:
- they are not attracted to you or
- they are safe because they are also married

2. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone who flirts with you even if you know you are not attracted to them. 

3. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone who you can tell is strongly attracted to you even though they behave themselves. This is perhaps the most dangerous situation you can participate in. 

It is that simple. I have had 1 female friend during my marriage. I mentored her at work. She is pretty but I never desired her and she never desired me. My W knew about her and always knew when I say her. She never felt threatened. 





BigBadWolf said:


> Okay, so MEM11363 can say in less than 20 words what I have to type out the short novel.
> 
> My brevity, I'm must work on it.


----------



## greenpearl

*Re: conflict - in the moment pain for overall gain*



MEM11363 said:


> BBW,
> Your message is much more artfully phrased. Let me share my rules for male/female "friendships" when you are married. The rules are all critical but they are listed most important first:
> 
> 1. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone YOU are attracted to even if you try to convince yourself that:
> - they are not attracted to you or
> - they are safe because they are also married
> 
> 2. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone who flirts with you even if you know you are not attracted to them.
> 
> 3. You are not allowed to be "friends" with someone who you can tell is strongly attracted to you even though they behave themselves. This is perhaps the most dangerous situation you can participate in.
> 
> It is that simple. I have had 1 female friend during my marriage. I mentored her at work. She is pretty but I never desired her and she never desired me. My W knew about her and always knew when I say her. She never felt threatened.


Agree!!!

I don't have female friends, so I don't need to worry that my female friends will steal my husband.

I tell my husband not to joke with his female co-workers too much, sometimes we don't have anything in mind, other people are thinking that you are interested in them.

I don't even talk to men in my real life, no mention joking. 

Anyway, in order to keep my happy marriage and wonderful husband, I am very cautious. 

There is one thing can hurt me very badly, I tell my husband, and I know, if I do something stupid, it is the same to him. 

A happy marriage is not that easy to achieve, if we want a happy marriage, we have to sacrifice in other area. 

I enjoy talking to men, but I choose not to have male friends because I know I am doing the right thing to protect my marriage. 

My happy marriage and my wonderful husband is much more important than so called friends.

If I have to choose between friends and my husband, the answer is so obvious I don't even need to ask.

But I do respect you guys a lot, I follow you guys everywhere. I read all of your posts. This is different.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Hmmm, I was ready to leave my huge reply -with many of BBW's questions answered, then started reading some of these newer replies- all so in perfect agreement. 

I have a feeling I will get verbally "Stoned" on this thread for my differing thoughts/ ways within our marraige regarding opposite sex friendships. 

Maybe best left unsaid.


----------



## BigBadWolf

Merely getting stoned, are you scared of this? 

Say it isn't so! 

If you are wanting to share, then by all means share, SimplyAmorous.


----------



## OhGeesh

SimplyAmorous said:


> Hmmm, I was ready to leave my huge reply -with many of BBW's questions answered, then started reading some of these newer replies- all so in perfect agreement.
> 
> I have a feeling I will get verbally "Stoned" on this thread for my differing thoughts/ ways within our marraige regarding opposite sex friendships.
> 
> Maybe best left unsaid.


My wife has guys that take her to lunch at work I don't care! They all know she is married.......many of them have met me too. My wife and I talk so much and are so wrapped up in each others worlds it would nearly impossible to have a affair more than some random ONS on a business trip.

We text 4-10x a day, call every 1-3hrs, we're home together every night. No girls nights outs or boys nights out, but we both have friends that are the opposite sex.

Granted neither of us would say "Hey I'm going to go hang out with Kim (for me) or Mark (for her) that would be wierd.

If your in love and life is great you don't go looking for affairs that's our medicine.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

OhGeesh said:


> My wife has guys that take her to lunch at work I don't care! They all know she is married.......many of them have met me too. My wife and I talk so much and are so wrapped up in each others worlds it would nearly impossible to have a affair more than some random ONS on a business trip.
> 
> We text 4-10x a day, call every 1-3hrs, we're home together every night. No girls nights outs or boys nights out, but we both have friends that are the opposite sex.
> 
> Granted neither of us would say "Hey I'm going to go hang out with Kim (for me) or Mark (for her) that would be wierd.
> 
> If your in love and life is great you don't go looking for affairs that's our medicine.


 This is EXACTLY how we R and FEEL -- minus I am not a career woman, we do not text, he does not call from work. 
And I might go out with some women friends to eat or something on occasion, never bars, those are the times they tell me I can not bring him along. 

Thank you OhGeesh for not seeing the inherint harm others are expressing on here in such dire fashion.

As Greenpearl so honestly shared, it does come down to "confidence", and or accepting your spouses comfort level. If these 2 things are an issue, then by all means, the rest of you are right to do and BE what you are living in your marraige. 

Since I do enjoy conflict SO much, you are right BBW, a verbal stoning might be rather fun!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

So here goes.....



BigBadWolf said:


> Judging to damnation? And this is a person good to be around?


What can I say, I enjoy conflict. He was my friend from way back, I am not going to throw him in the river, I am the one who lost my religion. 



BigBadWolf said:


> But what is he was uncomfortable, but merely did not want to appear jealous, or enrage you, or make you think he is too controlling, or not trusting?.....
> 
> Also you have mentioned this friend only comes around with your husband present. So is he your husband's friend then?


 It is none of these things at all. He is not worried about appearing controlling & he is not at all Jealous. 



BigBadWolf said:


> These skills in a man, are you saying they are attractive, maybe only though emotionally?
> 
> I am understand for some reason or another, this man is not sexually attractive to you. Correct?


Whatever emotional attractivness means. Hmmm, his debating skills do nothing for me sexually, just intellectually. 



BigBadWolf said:


> So I hear what you are saying, but to me, someone wrapped tightly with the cover of some religious beliefs, to me merely means they are worth extra scrutiny.


 I guess his history, his openly honest character -to a fault is why we trust him, we did not find him along the road, known him for umteen yrs now. I do not disagree with you here, remember the BTK serial killer- A great church man he was, sure fooled the multitudes. I doubt he was any open book though. 




BigBadWolf said:


> But we speak openly and honestly about our requirements, and she knowing how jealous I am, has made it all too clear that she loves and craves this jealousy.
> .......
> 
> For early in our relatinship during dating, I was in physical altercations with several young men who spoke or otherwise behaved inappropriately to my now wife, and never backed down to correct the behavior of anyone I felt mistreating or disrespecting her..............
> 
> For it is not some guessing game to my wife, she knows of my jealousy, it is steadfast and consistent, and yes, she can use it to her advantage easy enough! ..........
> For when she wants to see a reaction from me, to get attention or sexual connection or even for simple fun, she is quick to drop a mention of some situation, or some flirting, or something that some other man did or said to her, to push my buttons.
> ............................
> Do not imagine my wife is cowering in a corner in any sense, she is relishing her place in our relationship, relishing my attentiveness and jealousy of her, and she is quick to say or do whatever she feels to say or do in the world.


 Ok, Big Bad Wolf, I am very lost with some of this, I got the previous impression you did NOT allow her male friends, you put a stop to that in the beginning - then you say she CAN do anything she wants in this world . So she has never cared for such a thing- or this was just lost a long long time ago . She already knows your clear & definete take on this issue, so how would she even question it? as you so clearly feel anyone who has such relationships, there must be something lurking underneath hidden, some repressed need, I don't know. 

You admit to strong jealousy towards her, saying she LOVES this , even craves it & this fuels her somehow to be more attracted to YOU. That coupled with -- You will take down any guy who so much as speaks inappropritely to her. But then for sexual connection, it is OK for her to MENTION some situation that you just admitted you would want to HURT the man for. I am highly confused. So you WANT to hear the juicy stuff men say to her or you want to hurt these men or BOTH? 

Anger excites ?? I agree, intense feelings (good and bad) can unleash hormones! Even arousing hormones, why "Make up Sex" has extra spice! 


I'd say me & my hubby's relationship is far less complicated than this. We both talk to the opposite sex freely. We also do not want to hurt anyone if they do a little harmless flirting or even sexy jesting at times. I am talking in REAL life here with people WE KNOW, we get together with & BS every couple weeks or so. We like to play games with questions & let it all hang out. Most of our close friends possess a high degree of OPENNESS, this really doesn't exclude any subject at all. Even sex! 

So long as our marraige is respected in all conversations. Obviously My husband does not want any of our friends crossing a certain "line" as he calls it, trying to undermine his rightful throne in my life. Noone has done this so far -so he feels (I asked him earlier). It goes both ways here - a couple of my divorced girlfriends have commented on wanting to find their own "______" (hubbys name), jokes about cloning him have been ongoing for years. He knows If I should suddenly die, he will be well faught over, we laugh about it sometimes. That my friends feel this way, I am not bothered. It is kind of flattering. Obviously our friends, male & female, they feel VERY comfortable in OUR presence, being about to Joke & share so freely. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing, I don't know, hasn't bit us in the A** yet in life. And sure, a couple of our male friends has done similar in reference to ME- all in front of others. But I will say this : these same guy friends truly recognize what we have, as does my girlfriends. Not long ago, we were sitting around in a guy friends kitchen, a bunch of us laughing , talking about relationships, hardships, I will never forget the comment spoken about us. He says "I don’t think I could live a 2nd lifetime & find a love like that". Probably the sweetest comment I ever heard another speak of US. This is from another guy friend (not the debator friend), he has not hidden the fact he is almost jealous of my husband. It is what it is. For your household BBW and MEM, this would probably be utterly OUTRAGEOUS and even speaking like this on this forum would give others great pause. I believe I am welcoming much more conflict with this post than my last. I guess my only point is >>>they recognize US as a couple very much in love, nothing can penetrate that.




BigBadWolf said:


> Unpredictability, inattentiveness, indifference, apathy, when a man communicates these to his woman, this is the road to insecurity and misery.
> 
> When the good man is bold and confident to express his jealousy to his woman, this is the path to sexual security together.


 I agree with the 1st part - my husband IS none of those things (well maybe you would say Apathetic - cause you equate that with trust for some reason), but on the 2nd part, he says there is nothing I do to make him jealous. I do feel this IS the TRUST leading the way, so he sees no NEED for jealousy. He was before we married when I shortly went out with another guy. And once when I was talking to a guy swimming, a little sprang up, he admitted. . But very rarely, as I do everything with him, we are rarely separate. So you feel this is a problem for us somehow ? You find this BORING. You think I should not talk to guys , but somehow make my husband feel jealousy, boy you are a hard one to follow !! Now, on the guys end, if he does NOT know him, like I am talking to a stranger in person, he called it more a "danger" feeling, not a jealousy feeling. My husband is MORE worried about the MAN and his intentions, not mine. 



BigBadWolf said:


> But, I will ask, would it light your sexual fire for your man to express fierce jealousy over any man's attention to you, and especially your attention to other men?
> 
> I am asking this, because know there are many good men, who suppress their own jealousy, thinking their women want them to be more trusting.
> 
> When the reality is, a woman often tests her man, to say things like I'm "just friends" with this other man, when deep inside it would light her fire to no end to see her man stand up to her to say "enough of this nonsense, you are all mine!".
> 
> Would it not be sexual for your man to show in his actions, that he desires you fiercely?
> 
> For apathy is not sexual.
> 
> Selfish desire is sexual.
> 
> The word we call "Trust", is this not looking like "apathy", somewhat like "boring," and nothing like "selfish desire"?



No, I would not want FIERCE Jealousy. And no, I would not want him to feel this way if I was enjoying a conversation with a man. This would eventually tick me off. I like my guy friends. I am very happy he is kosher with this. I do understand some of what you speak though, I guess for me , the jealous thing can be used more IF you allow the FREEDOMS - than if you do not. 

Example: My husband seriously never did ANYTHING to make me jealous the entire time we have been together, since I was 15. He was always there, loving, doting, available. Maybe I did get bored back then, I broke up with him for a time, he simply waited, he didn’t see anyone else. He was just So available, heck I took advantage of this. He should have at least TRIED to make ME jealous!! I told him later, he sure screwed that up, that would have gotten me back way quicker- even immediately. 

This is almost rediculous, but the 1st time I felt some REAL jealousy over him was the 1st night we went to a Strip Club. (Just last year). I knew he was enjoying the sites, but somehow I never thought he might want to get a real Lapdance & see another woman naked & up close!! So when I seen how happy he was talking to this stripper & then going back with her, (he did care to ask my permission), once he walked away, these intense feelings started to rise within ME, like WOW, another has his full attention -how can he do this to me, but at the same time, I LIIKKEEDDD it, it turned me on, I wanted him MORE so. So yeah, I do "get this". I wanted to claim my territory so to speak and I did that very night. 

I have accually brought this subject up with my husband in the past, the "Selfish desire" thing in bed. I think that is Erotic & hot. I do want a Lover who is "selfish" in the bedroom -sure. But out of the bedroom and worried about who I am talking too, NO, don't want that. He can tell me later how Jealous he was & then claim his territory. Pretty much what I did after his 1st lap dance, I shared how that felt, the good & the bad, it was an exhilerating time. 



BigBadWolf said:


> But of female friendships, with passionate and emotional debates and exchanges, would you be happy and content with your husband to have this such relationship with another woman?


 Well, considering how I really enjoyed the strip club experience, even though we have that "apathy boring Trust" thing going on, I would say Yes, I might not mind at all. If I could join in, as I surely would, I would love it even more so. 
What do married people share differently than friends -- physical affection, physical sex, our deepest tears, our deepest joys. Passionate debating with another would not bother the type of person I am. So long as none of these women have access to his penis, I would be fine with it. 





BigBadWolf said:


> Not to be trite, but I am coming to think this man is simply not a friend.
> 
> With so many boundries in place, anyway.
> 
> Are there no women to debate religion with?
> 
> But then, we learn to understand that it is not without boundries, that your husband must be home, that you are not attracted to him, that if you were attracted to him it is a different story, etc etc etc.
> 
> So what are we to conclude, that surely such addendums are not requirements if your "friend" was female?
> 
> So, the question, is this man really a "friend"?


 BBW you read too much into these things. All the Boundary talk, maybe I overemphasized it in that last post. But really, he would never come to visit if my husband was not here. Those are his rules too. Although there were a couple occasions when I had tree cutters at my house & a roof crew when my husband was working. I did not want to be alone with a yard full of strange men, so I had him come over. No, no women who enjoys debate like this friend, haven't met one yet to compare, male or female. (in person that is). You are surely a handful to convince of anything , I will give you that much. 


There is something I simply do not get >>> the alpha Confident male admitting to these Jealous tendencies towards his wife ? And the timid Nice Guy- having more confidence in this area . It is not something I expected to learn from you. Urban Dictionary: jealousy Jealousy is usually about a threat, fear, loss. Why do you struggle with these things? All I can see is a protection mechinism going on. Not that that is a bad thing, it is VERY wise in many marraiges. 

This is just OUR story of how we conduct our relations with our friends, it is more open than the norm (communicatively only), true, but it has never posed a threat in our 21 yrs together. I do not advocate it for others, if one of the spouses have a problem. By all means, respect your spouse. I just don't feel freedom in these areas always = an affair or cheating. 

If the Foundation is strong, the intimacy is happening daily , it won't easily be taken down. Not by anyone, friend, co-worker, etc. 

I am taking a deeeeeeep breathe before I hit the reply button!


----------



## BigBadWolf

It is good to see you are not afraid of getting stoned. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> So here goes.....
> 
> 
> 
> What can I say, I enjoy conflict. He was my friend from way back, I am not going to throw him in the river, I am the one who lost my religion.
> 
> 
> 
> It is none of these things at all. He is not worried about appearing controlling & he is not at all Jealous.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever emotional attractivness means. Hmmm, his debating skills do nothing for me sexually, just intellectually.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess his history, his openly honest character -to a fault is why we trust him, we did not find him along the road, known him for umteen yrs now. I do not disagree with you here, remember the BTK serial killer- A great church man he was, sure fooled the multitudes. I doubt he was any open book though.


Okay.

On this I am certainly seeing your perspective.

ANd on this, I would not deny my wife this type of relationship, with clear boundries and history of predictable expectation.

And the BTK killer, good observation.

REligion, it is the ingenious cover for all sorts of deviant and ill behavior. 



> Ok, Big Bad Wolf, I am very lost with some of this, I got the previous impression you did NOT allow her male friends, you put a stop to that in the beginning - then you say she CAN do anything she wants in this world .


I was laying out the history between my wife and myself, to say that she knew from the beginning of my jealousy, or to say in modern TAM speak, my "boundries". 

What I say a friend, this is someone close and intimate and spending time alone with doing activities.

Perhaps much confusion is over this word I guess.

Male interactoins, of course my wife interacts and associates with men all the time.

Male "freinds", no.



> So she has never cared for such a thing- or this was just lost a long long time ago .


SIngle women, they seek out male friends for potential relationship opportunities.

My wife, when she was single, was very much like a woman in this regard.

In courtship, it was my responsiblity to eliminate these potential relationship opportunities. It is a rituatl that seems lost in this day and age, for a woman to see that her man will fight for her. 

A shame, as much sexual attraction and respect can be built in the relationship during this. 



> She already knows your clear & definete take on this issue, so how would she even question it? as you so clearly feel anyone who has such relationships, there must be something lurking underneath hidden, some repressed need, I don't know.


This is simple.

A woman seeking out male attention, is seeking something that her man is responsible for giving her.

These kinds of interactions, left unchecked, is a fire waiting to happen, such as an EA leading to a PA. Or maybe as simple as a jealous husband resenting his wife, however subtle.

But if he is aware, and together they are agreeing on "boundries" or such thing, when these are in place, and all eyes wide open, then as MEM11363 says, "that's okay".




> You admit to strong jealousy towards her, saying she LOVES this , even craves it & this fuels her somehow to be more attracted to YOU.


JEalousy, this is not to be confused with insecurity.

JEalousy is just this, I am desiring my wife's attention, and will not share it with anyone else without a challenge.

This is nothing like saying, I am fretting to let my wife alone, for fear or some unknown.

QUite the opposite.

I am knowing my wife, she is knowing me, she knows how I feel not because I "trust" her, but because she knows I am passionately jealous of her.

The word "trust", much like the word "faith".

It sounds good on paper, but given the choice between faith and knowing, I'll choose knowing.



> That coupled with -- You will take down any guy who so much as speaks inappropritely to her.


Please understand, I am NOT as brash and quick to brawling as I was in my youth, of course, that is not the point at all.

However in attitude, much the same.

Although I like to think much like a fine wine, I am much smoother and palatable in my dealing with conflict, now nothing with fists or threats, but in looks, glances, even strategic conversational barbs, interceptions, and deflections to some gentleman that was, maybe, crossing some line. 



> But then for sexual connection, it is OK for her to MENTION some situation that you just admitted you would want to HURT the man for. I am highly confused. So you WANT to hear the juicy stuff men say to her or you want to hurt these men or BOTH?


Again, nothing about hurting anyone.

Jealousy, the point is, that this is most sexually attractive for both the man and woman for them to express their strong desire for each other.

The word "trust", this is merely the opposite.

A little, okay, maybe.

A lot, this is more like apathy regarding our sexual communication. 



> Anger excites ?? I agree, intense feelings (good and bad) can unleash hormones! Even arousing hormones, why "Make up Sex" has extra spice!


AGreed!  




> I'd say me & my hubby's relationship is far less complicated than this. We both talk to the opposite sex freely. We also do not want to hurt anyone if they do a little harmless flirting or even sexy jesting at times. I am talking in REAL life here with people WE KNOW, we get together with & BS every couple weeks or so. We like to play games with questions & let it all hang out. Most of our close friends possess a high degree of OPENNESS, this really doesn't exclude any subject at all. Even sex!


Between me and my wife, our sexual lives are most private.

Between us, much like a forbidden fruit, or feelings of an illicit affair or something that must be hidden, often, when the imaginations of how "normal" we may appear on the outside, but behind closed doors, is this other sexual fantasy world, that is to us the reality and everything else is the distraction.  



> So long as our marraige is respected in all conversations. Obviously My husband does not want any of our friends crossing a certain "line" as he calls it, trying to undermine his rightful throne in my life. Noone has done this so far -so he feels (I asked him earlier). It goes both ways here - a couple of my divorced girlfriends have commented on wanting to find their own "______" (hubbys name), jokes about cloning him have been ongoing for years.


THis is good to know, that your husband has expressed his "line".

Between him and me, this is identical. 



> He knows If I should suddenly die, he will be well faught over, we laugh about it sometimes. That my friends feel this way, I am not bothered. It is kind of flattering. Obviously our friends, male & female, they feel VERY comfortable in OUR presence, being about to Joke & share so freely. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing, I don't know, hasn't bit us in the A** yet in life. And sure, a couple of our male friends has done similar in reference to ME- all in front of others. But I will say this : these same guy friends truly recognize what we have, as does my girlfriends. Not long ago, we were sitting around in a guy friends kitchen, a bunch of us laughing , talking about relationships, hardships, I will never forget the comment spoken about us. He says "I don’t think I could live a 2nd lifetime & find a love like that". Probably the sweetest comment I ever heard another speak of US. This is from another guy friend (not the debator friend), he has not hidden the fact he is almost jealous of my husband. It is what it is. For your household BBW and MEM, this would probably be utterly OUTRAGEOUS and even speaking like this on this forum would give others great pause. I believe I am welcoming much more conflict with this post than my last. I guess my only point is >>>they recognize US as a couple very much in love, nothing can penetrate that.


SA, I appreciate you sharing this.

I really don't believe there is much conflict, as this is testifying that these relationships are respecting your boundries.

And the fact that you have established boundries, this is with eyes wide open to the sexual potential of any relationship between a man and woman.

My point, and this is not because I care to be right, or some such thing, but my only point is this:

There is much MUCH damage potential to a marriage, for some man or woman to idolize the word "TRUST" to the point they say, I want to be "just friends" with this person just as I was before marriage, because this is the modern age and men and women can be friends and my husband/wife is too controlling and I can do what i want when i want etc etc etc etc.

Only this point, and nothing more, is what I am saying for these relationships, to say a man and woman can be "just friends", I say no.

Someone else says yes.

BUt the reality, is, sure there can be an exchange, a relationship, and association, discussion, whatever, and it can be fun, flirty, intellectual, whatever as well, as long as eyes wide open to the FACT that where ever there is a man and a woman together, there is sexual potential.

The young man and woman just starting out in the marriage, needs to understand the dangers!

The mature man and woman reeling from affairs and divorce, they have already seen the dangers!

"Trust". It sounds good on paper. 

In reality, "Trust" really means eyes wide open and understanding reality!



> I agree with the 1st part - my husband IS none of those things (well maybe you would say Apathetic - cause you equate that with trust for some reason), but on the 2nd part, he says there is nothing I do to make him jealous. I do feel this IS the TRUST leading the way, so he sees no NEED for jealousy. He was before we married when I shortly went out with another guy. And once when I was talking to a guy swimming, a little sprang up, he admitted. . But very rarely, as I do everything with him, we are rarely separate. So you feel this is a problem for us somehow ?


Men, we are taught to "trust", that to not trust is somehow bad.

I don't buy this for a minute.

Trust is much like faith.

Faith is okay for religoin and such things. 

But where there are known cause and effects leading to facts, give me facts everytime. 



> You find this BORING.


Trust is boring, absolutely.

And that's at best.

At worst, it is dishonest.

IF my wife went out with a bunch of girls to a bunch of bars, night after night, week and week, and said "trust me", what would that be telling her if I did?

Either I am naive.

OR afraid to say anything.

Or I don't care whether she sleeps with other men.

Which of these are less sexually attractive than the other?

Answer, the last, but barely, since apathy is at least maintaining an once of self respect.

But which of these are supporting a healthy sexual connection with my woman?

Answer: none of them!

For what lights the fire in my woman, is for me to be honest (and bold, etc) to stand and say not just no, but hell no to the bar hopping!

Dominance, this is sexually attaractive. 

My woman, she is therefore not insecure to even wonder how I feel, or if I am man enough to speak my peace.

So this is the result of jealousy, that jealousy is the honest reaction inside the man when his woman is sharing her attention to others.

Jealousy, being replaced with "trust", this is not sexually attractive.



> You think I should not talk to guys , but somehow make my husband feel jealousy, boy you are a hard one to follow !!


Talking to guys, this is not the same as friendship.

Also, talking to guys, being aware that your man is jealous of you, tell me how this makes you feel?

You don't even have to if you do not want to, I know already.

You feel secure and on fire for your man!

How would you feel for your man to be apathetic to you speaking with all these other men?

You would feel very small indeed, no?



> Now, on the guys end, if he does NOT know him, like I am talking to a stranger in person, he called it more a "danger" feeling, not a jealousy feeling. My husband is MORE worried about the MAN and his intentions, not mine.


Your husband, of course, is very correct in this.

A woman talking to the strange man, this is not good at all to be ignoring. 



> No, I would not want FIERCE Jealousy.


Come on, fierce can be good. 



> And no, I would not want him to feel this way if I was enjoying a conversation with a man. This would eventually tick me off. I like my guy friends. I am very happy he is kosher with this. I do understand some of what you speak though, I guess for me , the jealous thing can be used more IF you allow the FREEDOMS - than if you do not.


Expressing jealousy, this is not the same as chaining my woman to the bedpost.

I am thinking you are imagining someting that is perhaps, a little out of perspective.

For my wife, I will say somehing like "I am needing to be watching _____ when he is talking to you so often", and she will say something or another about nothing to worry about, or roll her eyes, and I will continue to stare at her, or repeat, and then she will express her flattery of my attention and jealousy, and 9 times of 10 show me some physical gesture that gives me no doubt who she is desiring, instead of this other man. 

This, is not boring.

Now, in the same scenario, what if my wife was talking to ______ very often, and all I have to say in the matter is "I trust you", and continue reading my book, or working on my project, then what?

I'll say what, this is not just boring, it is inviting disaster!





> Example: My husband seriously never did ANYTHING to make me jealous the entire time we have been together, since I was 15. He was always there, loving, doting, available. Maybe I did get bored back then,


Then I won't say it. 

But here it comes...



> I broke up with him for a time,


Yep.

Like the workings of the clock.



> he simply waited, he didn’t see anyone else. He was just So available, heck I took advantage of this. He should have at least TRIED to make ME jealous!! I told him later, he sure screwed that up, that would have gotten me back way quicker- even immediately.


So, it seems after all this, we agree on jealousy.



> This is almost rediculous, but the 1st time I felt some REAL jealousy over him was the 1st night we went to a Strip Club. (Just last year). I knew he was enjoying the sites, but somehow I never thought he might want to get a real Lapdance & see another woman naked & up close!! So when I seen how happy he was talking to this stripper & then going back with her, (he did care to ask my permission), once he walked away, these intense feelings started to rise within ME, like WOW, another has his full attention -how can he do this to me, but at the same time, I LIIKKEEDDD it, it turned me on, I wanted him MORE so. So yeah, I do "get this".





> I wanted to claim my territory so to speak and I did that very night.


This, this is the same with my wife and myself, and any man and woman, and it does not take the lap dances to always get their either.

Jealousy, much much better than "trust".  



> I have accually brought this subject up with my husband in the past, the "Selfish desire" thing in bed. I think that is Erotic & hot. I do want a Lover who is "selfish" in the bedroom -sure. But out of the bedroom and worried about who I am talking too, NO, don't want that. He can tell me later how Jealous he was & then claim his territory. Pretty much what I did after his 1st lap dance, I shared how that felt, the good & the bad, it was an exhilerating time.


Sexual communciation, it is a primal language, and it is a selfish language.

The "words" we use, as men and women to communicate sexual attraction, they are always selfish.

"Trust", "giving space", "just friends", none of these are selfish, therefore none of these are sexual (I would argue if any of these are even real, but that is for another thread).

Desire, boldness, honesty, courage, aggression, jealousy, dominance, these things are selfish, and therefore these are sexual (and VERY real) 





> Well, considering how I really enjoyed the strip club experience, even though we have that "apathy boring Trust" thing going on, I would say Yes, I might not mind at all. If I could join in, as I surely would, I would love it even more so.
> What do married people share differently than friends -- physical affection, physical sex, our deepest tears, our deepest joys. Passionate debating with another would not bother the type of person I am.


As long as your boundries are clear with this debate man, the friendship perspective, I understand what you are saying.

My position, that jealousy is very sexual, as are all things selfish between men and woman.

The good man and woman in a sexual relationship, they are able to be selfish together, because they are selfish for what the other has they they themself desire to the uttermost.

Whether attention, lust, love, physical touching, intimate details, all good men and women, be bold and confident with each other to share your deepest selfish desires! 

Do not be afraid to be selfish! 



> So long as none of these women have access to his penis, I would be fine with it.


How very selfish of you SimplyAmorous!  



> BBW you read too much into these things. All the Boundary talk, maybe I overemphasized it in that last post. But really, he would never come to visit if my husband was not here. Those are his rules too. Although there were a couple occasions when I had tree cutters at my house & a roof crew when my husband was working. I did not want to be alone with a yard full of strange men, so I had him come over.


Better the man you know in such times, this is truth.



> No, no women who enjoys debate like this friend, haven't met one yet to compare, male or female. (in person that is).


Understood. Debating, to some it is their art.  



> You are surely a handful to convince of anything , I will give you that much.


A skeptic, that I am to the core. 



> There is something I simply do not get >>> the alpha Confident male admitting to these Jealous tendencies towards his wife ?


No, alpha is not my word, I rarely use it. 

I speak of sexual structures, to understand and communicate in the language of sexual attraction.

Do not forget, jealousy, this is not to be confused with insecurity.

Jealousy, it is selfish.

And in this day and age, selfish communication, it is not encouraged.

Better to be polite than honest, "they" say.

"They" also can be known to not have much sex.  



> And the timid Nice Guy- having more confidence in this area .


COnfidence, this is a word often used to describe boldness.

But I assume, it can also be used to describe the apathetic, the trusting, or the faithful, no?

I am not expressing jealousy of my woman because I think she will cheat, or to prevent her from cheating.

I am expressing my jealousy of my woman because she has someting I am not interested to share, and I am not interested in holding back communcating this to her.

BEcause to her, hearing or seeing that I am jealous, communicates to her that she is a woman worth being jealous of. 

My expression of jealousy, it is not a communcation of weakness, but a communcation of desire.

Now, the "nice guy", do not forget the "nice guy" in all this!

The poor "nice guy", how often in life is he told to "grow up", and part of growing up is putting on a mask to hide is childish (primal) desires.

The "nice guy", he is told by a woman to "trust me", so he believes these words that he must mask his selfish jealousy, to "grow up" and "trust" and all these other things.

But, answer this, who has more sex, grown ups or teenagers?

So in this way, it is clear, to forget the mask of hiding primal desires, of hiding selfish desires, and instead it is proper for the good man to communicate to his woman in bold honesty.



> It is not something I expected to learn from you. Urban Dictionary: jealousy Jealousy is usually about a threat, fear, loss. Why do you struggle with these things? All I can see is a protection mechinism going on. Not that that is a bad thing, it is VERY wise in many marraiges.


First, "urban dictionary"??????????? 

But serious, jealousy is not about fear, it is about honesty!



> This is just OUR story of how we conduct our relations with our friends, it is more open than the norm (communicatively only), true, but it has never posed a threat in our 21 yrs together. I do not advocate it for others, if one of the spouses have a problem. By all means, respect your spouse. I just don't feel freedom in these areas always = an affair or cheating.


Freedom, it is the two edged sword, as you have alluded to.

Freedom, it can be confused with boring "apathy"  



> If the Foundation is strong, the intimacy is happening daily , it won't easily be taken down. Not by anyone, friend, co-worker, etc.
> 
> I am taking a deeeeeeep breathe before I hit the reply button!


SimplyAmorous, thank you for taking the time to reply to this.

As always, I wish you well.


----------



## greenpearl

People who are too confident of themselves usually fall badly.

A lot of women would never guess that their husbands are having sex with their close female friends. When they find out, they just go crazy............................

Men are men, when they see women, how many of them really respect the women's intellectual brain? How many of them don't use their penises to think when they see this gorgeous woman in front of them? 

If the woman doesn't have a strong will, won't she fall badly and become these men's prey? 

Year long friends are different. They have gained the trust.

Definitely not new ones.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

BigBadWolf;196144:)[/QUOTE said:


> What I say a friend, this is someone close and intimate and spending time alone with doing activities.
> 
> Perhaps much confusion is over this word I guess.


 This was the 1st confusion , not laying out what "*friendship*" meant. To me, it was simply talking & sharing . I never thought of it as going out alone with them to do activities -like some may do with their girlfriends. I do NOT go alone anywhere with any of our male friends. But yes, many male interactions, and I still call them "freinds" but my meaning was different than yours. 



BigBadWolf said:


> Jealousy, the point is, that this is most sexually attractive for both the man and woman for them to express their strong desire for each other.


 This is the 1st I have ever heard Jealousy described in such a way. It's very interesting . Yes, I agree that I like (even LOVE) the feeling that my husband is Jealous over me. And so true, this DOES indeed excite passion. Very much so. 

These words -- *Trust* and *Jealousy*, Me & husband has not been using them in the ways you so elequently describe in your post. He is working now, so I can not ask him. I Do know he would be insanely upset, I guess jealous if I am using the right term, if he felt I was giving to another what "belongs" to him. I am not sure he would ever be the same. The hurt would be tremendous, he has talked about this. He has gotten bent out of shape if I spend too much time on the computer even -or let me know in some way I am neglecting him, so one could say he is "jealous" of my time & attention. 

I do agree that many trust BLINDLY and get burned, and my ramblings in my last post probably make me sound too confident of him , of myself. I should never be so bold as to say it can never happen "to us". And I don't mean to come off like that. I and he is not immune. 

I will be the 1st to say I have a very satisfying marraige (except I wish for more Eroticness) , but at the very same time, also the 1st to admit, that if he stopped meeting my womanly needs (emotional & physical), if this so easily fell by the wayside, *with no "Jealousy" on his part *of what I may go off and find out there in this big bad world. Let's just say, he would NOT be able to trust me - as I most likely would be seeking anothers attention- because I am at my core SELFISH, and I seek my own. To be selfishly persued by someone who wants you, darn right - this IS bliss. 

A marraige would be boring without that. I believe I am getting it now !



BigBadWolf said:


> And the fact that you have established boundries, this is with eyes wide open to the sexual potential of any relationship between a man and woman.
> 
> There is much MUCH damage potential to a marriage, for some man or woman to idolize the word "TRUST" to the point they say, I want to be "just friends" with this person just as I was before marriage, because this is the modern age and men and women can be friends and my husband/wife is too controlling and I can do what i want when i want etc etc etc etc.
> 
> BUt the reality, is, sure there can be an exchange, a relationship, and association, discussion, whatever, and it can be fun, flirty, intellectual, whatever as well, as long as eyes wide open to the FACT that where ever there is a man and a woman together, there is sexual potential.
> 
> The young man and woman just starting out in the marriage, needs to understand the dangers!
> 
> The mature man and woman reeling from affairs and divorce, they have already seen the dangers!
> 
> "Trust". It sounds good on paper.
> 
> In reality, "Trust" really means eyes wide open and understanding reality!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:



BigBadWolf said:


> IF my wife went out with a bunch of girls to a bunch of bars, night after night, week and week, and said "trust me", what would that be telling her if I did?
> 
> Either I am naive.
> 
> OR afraid to say anything.
> 
> Or I don't care whether she sleeps with other men.
> 
> Which of these are less sexually attractive than the other?
> 
> Answer, the last, but barely, since apathy is at least maintaining an once of self respect.
> 
> But which of these are supporting a healthy sexual connection with my woman?
> 
> Answer: none of them!


 Good analogy, I know of a couple that this happened too, they were married almost 20 yrs, he TRUSTED, never showed the Jealousy you speak of, while she partied with her friends every week & she met a Drummer, now a split family, and of coarse the Drummer is history. 

No, My husband would NEVER allow that, he would have this jealousy you speak of to NOT allow such a thing. --- Yes, great way of describing here >>> 

*So this is the result of jealousy, that jealousy is the honest reaction inside the man when his woman is sharing her attention to others*.



BigBadWolf said:


> How would you feel for your man to be apathetic to you speaking with all these other men?


It would really SUCK if he didn't care-if I was speaking to them in sexual ways, outright flirting, even if to get his attention & he had zero concern. Yes, it would speaks volumes to = a passionless relationship



BigBadWolf said:


> I am thinking you are imagining someting that is perhaps, a little out of perspective.
> 
> For my wife, I will say somehing like "I am needing to be watching _____ when he is talking to you so often", and she will say something or another about nothing to worry about, or roll her eyes, and I will continue to stare at her, or repeat, and then she will express her flattery of my attention and jealousy, and 9 times of 10 show me some physical gesture that gives me no doubt who she is desiring, instead of this other man.
> 
> This, is not boring.


 Yes, I was very much misunderstanding you before, what you were getting at. Not until you used all these examples did I get what you meant. Very good ! Agred to the hilt !



BigBadWolf;196144:)[/QUOTE said:


> This, this is the same with my wife and myself, and any man and woman, and it does not take the lap dances to always get their either.


 As I am very sure! This Strip Club thing is just a phase, something new to us, I think we are re-living our youth , some of the wild things many do in younger yrs that we were too repressed & moral to do. Our Mid Life Crisis craziness. We will someday look back & laugh histerically & probably not tell the grandchildren! 



BigBadWolf;196144:)[/QUOTE said:


> The "words" we use, as men and women to communicate sexual attraction, they are always selfish.
> 
> Desire, boldness, honesty, courage, aggression, jealousy, dominance, these things are selfish, and therefore these are sexual (and VERY real)


 Yeah best kind! getting into that Erotic Mode again. These things descrbe me more than my husband, but hey, now that I learned your take on this Jealousy thing, I know he has this, so all is Good.  



BigBadWolf;196144:)[/QUOTE said:


> As long as your boundries are clear with this debate man, the friendship perspective, I understand what you are saying.


 Wow, I got some understanding from the WOLF, this is a fine day after all. 


Yes, I would call Debating an "Art" also. I can be a pathetic 
Skeptic as well. I applaud the Skeptic. I am not cemented on anything in this life, but feel we should be ever learning & growing intellectually, not remaining in whatever niave circles we have come from originally. 



BigBadWolf;196144:)[/QUOTE said:


> I am not expressing jealousy of my woman because I think she will cheat, or to prevent her from cheating.
> 
> I am expressing my jealousy of my woman because she has someting I am not interested to share, and I am not interested in holding back communcating this to her.
> 
> BEcause to her, hearing or seeing that I am jealous, communicates to her that she is a woman worth being jealous of.
> 
> My expression of jealousy, it is not a communcation of weakness, but a communcation of desire.


 Absolutely love it ! I am agreeing way too much with you on here ! 

You never heard of Urban Dictionary. My favorite. I guess people can add their own personal definitions, you seriously need to put yours under Jealousy. What an insightful original it will be. 

Never thought I would agree so hearilty with you on anything.


----------



## Affaircare

STONE HER! 










SHE SAID "JEHOVAH!" (OOPS!  )











BURN HER! 
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## greenpearl

BBW, 

Since you are an advice giver, not an advice seeker.

I do hope that you shorten your posts so they can benefit all of us. 

Again, I respect you a lot for being a GREAT HELPER on the forum.

I adore you for being A MANLY and LOVING MAN.

But remember, you want all of us to learn from you advice.

Long posts tire me out. 

After sometime, I just stop reading long posts. 

I don't know about others. 

My opinion.


----------



## sisters359

BBW, you are not a woman so how can you possibly know that a woman--apparently any woman, all women--would find a man doing housework to be unattractive? 

People who are comfortable with their adult sexuality do not need rigid gender roles or stereotypes. Sexuality is inherent in the person, first and foremost. Once you are aware of and accepting of that, feeling sexual is a normal part of life. One does not have to see (or avoid) certain things to feel sexual. 

Please stop imposing your very narrow and sexist view of "what women want" on WOMEN. Maybe some poor guys will buy it, thinking that it is "dominance" that turns on their wives when, in fact, it will be simple JOY at finding a sexually aggressive EQUAL and a partner willing to express a freaking opinion. I used to have seduction fantasies (along with other kinds), but as I became more comfortable with my sexuality, those became boring and not the least bit of a turn-on. 

I can see why most men prefer to date younger women. Between the talk of the "need" to be dominant, spanking a wife, and wanting her to shave her pubic hair, I can't help but think that a lot of men never really grow up and prefer to have sex with a child-like female. Yet, I've seen some fine examples here of men who take responsibility for their decisions and want women to do the same. (And before anyone thinks I'm ignoring the obvious, yes, there are a lot of women who need to grow up, too. But I already said that, in another thread.)


----------



## greenpearl

If BBW's wife doesn't work, it's all fair for her to take the share at home. Because being a man working all day and providing for the family is not easy. He deserves a sweet home to come back to. A sweet home and wife makes him want to come home right away after work.

If his wife works, and he doesn't share house chores at home, then it's not fair, but I don't think this is the case at his house. 

And he claims himself for being a very happy and faithful man, I think at least his wife is doing a great job to keep this man. 

We being outsiders shouldn't jump to conclusion accusing him for anything. If he says he is happy and his wife is happy, then they are happy. He is not here crying for help. If men want to take his advice and use it in their marriages, his advice works for those men or not, let those men decide, BBW is here trying to help, we have to support him. You may not find his advice helpful for you, then it is not his fault. And truth hurts. Don't be offended.


----------



## Deejo

sisters359 said:


> I can see why most men prefer to date younger women. Between the talk of the "need" to be dominant, spanking a wife, and wanting her to shave her pubic hair, I can't help but think that a lot of men never really grow up and prefer to have sex with a child-like female.


Touche' on sexist and inflammatory. How did bush, or lack thereof get dragged into this? Women shaving is our fault too? I just assumed they were all competitive swimmers ...


----------



## BigBadWolf

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is the 1st I have ever heard Jealousy described in such a way. It's very interesting . Yes, I agree that I like (even LOVE) the feeling that my husband is Jealous over me. And so true, this DOES indeed excite passion. Very much so.


Exactly.

A woman, to the man she is desiring, she is LOVING his jealousy.

All this modern talk of "trust" and to put down jealousy, when a man believes this talk, acts on it, and sees the wreckage in his sexual relations that follows, it is confusion. 

THe good man, when he is feeling jealousy over his woman, he is bold and honest to express this, and she sees that as her man is dominant and desiring her, and that she feels that she is sexual and desired by a worthwhile man. 

And always with dominance, to express in calmness and confidence is the best. 



> These words -- *Trust* and *Jealousy*, Me & husband has not been using them in the ways you so elequently describe in your post.


In sexual relationships, to keep sexual feelings on fire for each other, honesty is the key.

Honesty, it is the opposite of politeness.

Sexual communication, it is often not polite, but that is not meaning it is abusive.

Primal, ancient, the deepest and darkest parts of ourselves, this is the wellspring of sexual communcation between a man and a woman.



> I do agree that many trust BLINDLY and get burned, and my ramblings in my last post probably make me sound too confident of him , of myself. I should never be so bold as to say it can never happen "to us". And I don't mean to come off like that. I and he is not immune.


No one is immune.

That is easy to see, in so many marriages, they seem perfect but inside can be festering with resentment. 

Honesty is the antidote for resentment. 



> because I am at my core SELFISH, and I seek my own. To be selfishly persued by someone who wants you, darn right - this IS bliss.
> 
> A marraige would be boring without that. I believe I am getting it now !


Woman, in sex they are selfish.

Men, in sex, we are selfish.

To attempt to bind these characterstics in some false construct, is dishonest.

DIshonesty in friendship, or associatoins, this can always be dismissed as politeness.

Dishonesty in sexual relations, it hard to mask.

THis is why sex is so important, for as humans, perhaps the only honesty we can truly know in this life. 

And why, modern feminist notions, that sex is nothing, sex is merely for recreation, sex is easily dismissed, this is why misery such a close friend to relationships that are built on these notions.




> Good analogy, I know of a couple that this happened too, they were married almost 20 yrs, he TRUSTED, never showed the Jealousy you speak of, while she partied with her friends every week & she met a Drummer, now a split family, and of coarse the Drummer is history.


A woman, she is craving the attention and jealousy of her man.

If he is unwilling or unable to communicate his jealousy, inside his woman she is missing this attention, and she will be looking to find attention elsewhere. 




> As I am very sure! This Strip Club thing is just a phase, something new to us, I think we are re-living our youth , some of the wild things many do in younger yrs that we were too repressed & moral to do. Our Mid Life Crisis craziness. We will someday look back & laugh histerically & probably not tell the grandchildren!


This is great.

So you know, "growing up", it is overrated mostly. 

Often when someone says "grow up", they are really merely inviting you to "be miserable, just like me!!!" 



> Wow, I got some understanding from the WOLF, this is a fine day after all.







> You never heard of Urban Dictionary. My favorite. I guess people can add their own personal definitions, you seriously need to put yours under Jealousy. What an insightful original it will be.
> 
> Never thought I would agree so hearilty with you on anything.


To maintain sexual attraction, in our communcations it is good to be bold and honest enough with the one we love.

Even in jealousy, to see it is often more important to express jealousy than trust!


----------



## BigBadWolf

Greenpearl,

My typing less would likely benefit us both!

I will pay attention to these things. 





greenpearl said:


> BBW,
> 
> Since you are an advice giver, not an advice seeker.
> 
> I do hope that you shorten your posts so they can benefit all of us.
> 
> Again, I respect you a lot for being a GREAT HELPER on the forum.
> 
> I adore you for being A MANLY and LOVING MAN.
> 
> But remember, you want all of us to learn from you advice.
> 
> Long posts tire me out.
> 
> After sometime, I just stop reading long posts.
> 
> I don't know about others.
> 
> My opinion.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM, 

BBW,

After reading your posts about friends, it helped me make up my mind not to seek male friendship anymore. 

You guys all know, I shy away from a lot of women, I only like to be around happy and non jealous ones. 

You guys also know, I enjoy talking to men. In my real life, I never intended making friends with men. I was talking to my husband today, in my life, I would only seek romantic relationship from a man, never seek friendship from a man. A few months ago, I discovered forums, I had very good conversation with men, I thought it is OK to be friends with men on Internet, it turned out to be a disaster. 

I won't be naive anymore. What you stressed here just encouraged me to try harder. 

I view my husband the most important person in my life. He makes me a very happy woman. 

Maybe our world is small, but it is a happy and peaceful small world. 

My heart is full of joy and love when I write happy posts like this. 

I respect you guys a lot! Seeing you guys here helping troubled people, I am very happy. 

Sometimes people get irritated by us just because they don't agree with us or they get bothered by our careless words, I try not to let it bother me, I admit it still bothers me. 

But we do our best. People like it or not, it is their business, we don't get paid by them. 

And if they see happy marriages here, they don't want to think that we might be doing something right. I don't think we lose anything.


----------



## MEM2020

GP,
I really think you could find female friends if you looked in the right place. 

This is odd - but my W also gets along with men better than women. Perhaps the two of you share a common ancestor way back.




greenpearl said:


> MEM,
> 
> BBW,
> 
> After reading your posts about friends, it helped me make up my mind not to seek male friendship anymore.
> 
> You guys all know, I shy away from a lot of women, I only like to be around happy and non jealous ones.
> 
> You guys also know, I enjoy talking to men. In my real life, I never intended making friends with men. I was talking to my husband today, in my life, I would only seek romantic relationship from a man, never seek friendship from a man. A few months ago, I discovered forums, I had very good conversation with men, I thought it is OK to be friends with men on Internet, it turned out to be a disaster.
> 
> I won't be naive anymore. What you stressed here just encouraged me to try harder.
> 
> I view my husband the most important person in my life. He makes me a very happy woman.
> 
> Maybe our world is small, but it is a happy and peaceful small world.
> 
> My heart is full of joy and love when I write happy posts like this.
> 
> I respect you guys a lot! Seeing you guys here helping troubled people, I am very happy.
> 
> Sometimes people get irritated by us just because they don't agree with us or they get bothered by our careless words, I try not to let it bother me, I admit it still bothers me.
> 
> But we do our best. People like it or not, it is their business, we don't get paid by them.
> 
> And if they see happy marriages here, they don't want to think that we might be doing something right. I don't think we lose anything.


----------



## greenpearl

MEM11363 said:


> GP,
> I really think you could find female friends if you looked in the right place.
> 
> This is odd - but my W also gets along with men better than women. Perhaps the two of you share a common ancestor way back.



MEM, 

I am fine. 

I have a very high standard for friends. 

I would like to be your wife's friend if she doesn't mind. 



Check http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ed-confused-not-sure-how-move.html#post196453 

My wonderful husband replied this thread. That's how he used to handle me when I was upset.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Affaircare - I hope that you was just JOKING !! Wondering what YOU really think, as you are a Professional, the rest of us R just talking about our marraiges & what we have seen in our friends's lives, etc. 

What are your thoughts on this side of Jealousy, I would term it a "Healthy Jealousy", not the insecurity kind. 

... And TRUST = APATHY & boringness. I still have a hard time going there to a large degree, but the way it was explained by BBW, I totally "get". 

I have always felt, even before these exchanges , that Jealousy is a "barametor" of one's passion for the other.
In the book "Kosher Adultery", a Jewish Rabbi has instructed husbands who have lost passion for their wives, to take them to a bar, walk in separately, allow your wife to go & sit alone , while you watch from a distance & see what happens when other men approach her & shows interest. This is a Test of that Jealousy. Many times these men who felt they had nothing left in love, surprisingly find out THIS bothers them - IF something uneasy rises within you, you know there is something to work with, that old passion CAN be revived, a true Jealousy test. 



BigBadWolf said:


> A woman, she is craving the attention and jealousy of her man.
> 
> If he is unwilling or unable to communicate his jealousy, inside his woman she is missing this attention, and she will be looking to find attention elsewhere.


 I so agree with all of this. :iagree: In my own marraige, My husband has ALWAYS given me the attention, no unwillingness there, but his boldness & selfishnes in expressing it - Me being such a a pathetic analyzer, I would say he could use a little MORE Boldness & Selfishness in the expressing. I am probably too available though, not enough occasions to stir the jealousy pot, so maybe these play a role. 

I don't mind Long posts at all- because of BBW's length and detailed examples, I finally got what he was trying to say to me- with a clear understanding now. I so appreciate anyone who takes the time to be so detailed in a response, some times this gets lenghty, all good!

So please, if anyone is replying to ME personally, dont shorten, I want to hear ALL you have to say. I've enjoyed it.


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## nice777guy

Is there some underlying problem when a man or woman says "I'm more comfortable being friends / talking with the opposite sex"? Does it mean there is some aspect of the marriage that is incomplete when you find yourself seeking out "conversation" with people of the opposite sex? 

Of course a lot of us felt this way even before marriage - so maybe its not purely a relationship issue...

This came up with a female co-worker the other day. We were talking about work related problems she was having with a very competitive female co-worker, and she used the classic "I've always had better luck being friends with guys" line.


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## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Is there some underlying problem when a man or woman says "I'm more comfortable being friends / talking with the opposite sex"? Does it mean there is some aspect of the marriage that is incomplete when you find yourself seeking out "conversation" with people of the opposite sex?
> 
> Of course a lot of us felt this way even before marriage - so maybe its not purely a relationship issue...
> 
> This came up with a female co-worker the other day. We were talking about work related problems she was having with a very competitive female co-worker, and she used the classic "I've always had better luck being friends with guys" line.


First, we want friends. We don't just want to talk to our spouses. 

As women, we like to talk. 

As people, we like to feel that we are being loved. It is always a good feeling that you know somebody cares about you and wants to talk to you.

For me, I am scared of talking to most women. Because the things they talk about are not constructive: 1, gossip, I am not interested. 2, complaining, it bothers me. 3, jealousy, I don't dare to be too happy in front of them, I am being restrained with what I should say, I can't be myself. Even on forums, some women can't control their jealousy and attack me. I am used to it. I am happy! So what? I can't say that I am happy? 4, they only want you to be their sound board, you have to say things they like to hear, and what they do is not that appealing. I wouldn't tell a lazy woman that she is doing a great job for being lazy. 5, vain, they want all the showy stuff, and think you are poor for not having it. If they have money, go for it. But they have a lot of credit card debt. I view that shallow and stupid. 6, can't let things go. They always remember the bad times and bad things, it is a lot of pain talking to them. 7, etc.

With men, I don't need to worry any of the problems above, and they won't be jealous of me simply because I am a woman! They can be envious of my husband, that's it. 

Who do I like to talk to? Who do I feel comfortable talking to? 

MEN!

Thank Internet and thank forums, I am able to talk to men now. 

Hooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## BigBadWolf

My wife, has always been this same way.

To be at ease and able to talk to men, and prefer to be in the company of and working with men.

And as well, she is able to put them at ease and comfortable talking with her as well.

This is why, I am needing to watch closely all her man relationships with so much jealousy.


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## greenpearl

BigBadWolf said:


> My wife, has always been this same way.
> 
> To be at ease and able to talk to men, and prefer to be in the company of and working with men.
> 
> And as well, she is able to put them at ease and comfortable talking with her as well.
> 
> This is why, I am needing to watch closely all her man relationships with so much jealousy.


My husband doesn't have this problem since my co-workers are all women. Only our school bus drivers are men. 

So he is watching me on forums. 

Feels nice to have a jealous husband, even though he doesn't want to admit it. 

He just said that he is being protective of me!


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## nice777guy

GP - I could make a similar list of why I like to talk to women - and why I don't like to talk to men as much.

So is it just that we feel less competitive with the opposite sex? A man will find himself comparing golf scores or how much he can bench press with another man, but never with a woman. And a woman and a man will never get catty over who is more fashionable or has the nicer purse.


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## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> GP - I could make a similar list of why I like to talk to women - and why I don't like to talk to men as much.
> 
> So is it just that we feel less competitive with the opposite sex? A man will find himself comparing golf scores or how much he can bench press with another man, but never with a woman. And a woman and a man will never get catty over who is more fashionable or has the nicer purse.


I think this is true. 

My husband always finds himself more comfortable talking to women. His co-workers are all women( most Taiwanese English teachers are women). I have to set up rules for him. He is not allowed to joke with his co-workers too much. My husband is a very faithful man, he comes home right away after school. He is a family man. I am blessed for having a man like this. 

When men get together, they talk about their cars and careers, they try to outdo each other. 


When women get together, they compare with each other: husbands, children, fancy stuff, they are trying to outdo each other also. 

Opposite sex attracts! 

So we really have to watch out when we are married. We have to have self-control. We have to sacrifice. We have to know clearly that it is our spouse who is important to us and the person who we should seek attention from. 

I am happy with what I am doing now. Talking to men out on the forums. I get to satisfy my needs for talking to men. I don't need to worry about being attached to anyone since it is out in the public. It is like talking to men in a big group. 

Yeah, happy!


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## SimplyAmorous

I am not sure what it is with me, but looking back over my life, I seem to have always preferred hanging with boys. Even at the innocent age of 5, I enjoyed my little boy friend the best, he showed me how to ride a bike & we used to climb trees together & show off our privates. I guess I was a bad little girl !! I didnt have any brothers so he was just such a mystery to me. Then all my best girlfriends growing up, of coarse I enjoyed them but I simply can't deny that I enjoyed their brothers -sometimes just as much -if not more. BUt at the same time, I was very very shy around boys growing up. 

I found when girls get together, just too much pettyness. 2 girls hanging out works well, but when 3 gets together, so often starts friendship troubles, jealousy, hurt feelings. I can see it starting with my own little daughter. Boys don't get so wrapped up in all that emotionalism. 

With the boys, this was never an issue. You didnt have to worry if you said the wrong thing the wrong way at the wrong time. They were consistent in liking you & accepting you. 

Then when I met my boyrfriend, now husband, I gravitated to him & his friends more so, while many of my girlfriends fell by the wayside. They used to get so mad at me, I never wanted to hang with "the girls'. I am still this way today, I do it from time to time but going on a Woman's Retreat, or shopping with my girlfriends, or going to a Cooking show, I usually get kind of bored. 

Now being married, we prefer to hang with couples the most, but always our single friends are welcome. I don't work outside the home, but if I did, I KNOW I would much prefer working with men over women.



nice777guy said:


> Is there some underlying problem when a man or woman says "I'm more comfortable being friends / talking with the opposite sex"? Does it mean there is some aspect of the marriage that is incomplete when you find yourself seeking out "conversation" with people of the opposite sex?


 I would not say I am "more comfortable", and I wouldn't say I seek out male friendships. I will say that many women TALK TOOOOO MUCH, sometimes you just want to run the other way. 2 of my female friends endlessly chatter, they do not always stop to ask questions, some do not even seem to catch on that who they are talking too (sometimes me!) is completely bored with what they are saying . Sometimes I have gotten almost rude in trying to get one girlfriend to shut up so another girlfriends can get into the conversation! Very annoying. I Havent met too many men with this problem.


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## Deejo

I know and have known examples of both genders to whom it is far more important that they have an audience for the sole purpose of hearing themselves, than it is to know their audience is listening.

I have a male buddy, and we always joke; "Ask Phil what time it is and he'll tell you how to build a watch."

We covered this a bit in another thread. Male depth is there, but we don't broadcast it. I generally appreciate that women, by being open, honest and vulnerable about the truths of their lives, can more easily engender others to share at that level - with the presumption that what is shared, is 'safe'


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## mat12

Why didn't I do this sooner?!? Almost overnight, it seemed we had an easier time taliking, we got closer, started enjoying each other's company, and yes, the sex is better-even turns out that she's willing to do it more than I wanted!
Wedding Favours


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## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> I know and have known examples of both genders to whom it is far more important that they have an audience for the sole purpose of hearing themselves, than it is to know their audience is listening.
> 
> I have a male buddy, and we always joke; "Ask Phil what time it is and he'll tell you how to build a watch."
> 
> We covered this a bit in another thread.


 Oh yeah, it was your reply Deejo, in that thread I started a while back http://talkaboutmarriage.com/social...tter-just-dump-ignore-friendship-instead.html

That was REALLY funny-how you handle your friend, I loved that! I know guys can be similar - but I still think fewer & genereally they would not be as offended if they realized we was deliberately trying to shut them up. 

My brother in law is like this, intelligent to the hilt , especially with computers but dare ask him a question & you will be engrossed in what feels like a Computer Class for the next hour. Generally we just have to leave the room, even my kids refuse to ask for his help. I will not dare ask my Mother In Law about a Movie or a book -then I will have to hear the entire script. These things are very very annoying to me. 

I gravitate to anyone, male or female, who is articulate, gives detail but throws out the totally irrelevant crap, knows how to ask questions and listen, and cares that who they are talking too is simply "interested". I know this is why I prefer my Guy friend over any of my women friends, it is just that simple.


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## tattoomommy

Boogsie said:


> I learned that my wife can NOT make me happy, only I can. My wife is there kind of like a polish, to make that happiness just that more beautiful to experience. We are far from there, and may not get there, but I'm now willing to pursue my happiness, with or without her.


:iagree: So wise!!! You have to be content with yourself. You cannot expect someone else to make you content. It'll never happen. I always tell people they need to be happy with themselves before they can be happy with someone else. So happy you put this on here. You are responsible for your own happiness


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## Deejo

tattoomommy said:


> :iagree: So wise!!! You have to be content with yourself. You cannot expect someone else to make you content. It'll never happen. I always tell people they need to be happy with themselves before they can be happy with someone else. So happy you put this on here. You are responsible for your own happiness


Definitely an important lesson to learn. Frames everything differently. It's immensely empowering - or terrifying depending upon where you are in the journey and your circumstances.

Personal happiness or self-satisfaction is too big to put in the hands of someone else.


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