# Double betrayals what does it say about the participants



## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hi all:

On this board and at the in-person support group I attended a few times, I heard horrific stories of double betrayals. 

These are situations where the two cheaters are family friends of the respective betrayed spouses and during the affair continue to socialize together. 

What do you all think this says about these particular cheaters. 

The OW in my situation, was a serial cheater and one of her affairs involved her husband's best friend. 

He and his wife were good friends with the OW and her husband and vice versa. 

I really think this makes this OW lower than pond scum. And her affair partner, the best friend of OW's husband the same.

To sit at Christmas dinner and in restaurants playing footsie while smiling at their respective clueless betrayed spouses is really scary to me. 

The fact that my STBEH knew about this OW's double betrayal affair and didn't run, also scares me. 

How could someone betray both a best friend and a spouse. 

Are these types always narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths?

What do you all think about cheaters who double betray best buds and spouses?


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Sara, it shouldn't come as a surprise that cheaters have no problem doubly betraying their spouses and friends. I think the majority of cheaters are capable of doing so and the only reason that they didn't is because the right opportunity did not present itself. Cheaters are selfish people and they could not care less about who they hurt and the collateral damage that they inflict on friends and family.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It makes good fodder in smarmy women's magazines.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cheating sucks, period. No matter who does it with whom. I am certainly not going to say that any certain demographic are "always narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths?" I don't like blanket statements labeling anyone, even cheaters.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

As most affairs are not set up I have no doubt double betrayals are way more prevalent we can think. Sure enough in the past it was the norm (little chances to travel easily, women not full in the work force, no internet...).
I don't think it requires an special level of ****ed-up-ness beyond the obvious.
Closeness makes possible the boundarie crossing. As a side effect it makes very easy to to hide it at plain sight.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

IDK what it says about these two poeple, cuz I just can't imagine what my old lady and my good friend were thinking. 

The POS friend prayed on my vanurable wife, lots of drinking to wash the guilt away, two broken poeple..............

God have mercy on there souls!

I can almost take the strange/ONS, I can almost take the short affairs, but the DBL betrayal will eat at me for the rest of my life. There is just no explaination!!!!!!!!


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I want to apologize to those who suffered double betrayals. It was an insensitive post.


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## Lmodel (Jun 1, 2012)

My wife cheated with her best friends husband in a two year PA. I was friends with the husband but there was something I never trusted about him, I should have acted on my instincts earlier. My wife and I have been married for 17 years and I could not even begin to comprehend the lengths she went to to protect and prolong her affair, including comforting her friend when she suspected her husband was having an affair!!! She could not have imagined the carnage this affair has caused, friendships destroyed, families wrecked, trust destroyed. If only people could see what happens post "outing" of an affair.


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## girlfromipanema (Aug 26, 2011)

I experienced a double betrayal and I don't think it was an insensitive post...

I can understand how feelings develop between friends. I don't understand how the affair participants can make the decision to cross the line, but many are just very weak minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Lmodel said:


> I could not even begin to comprehend.


Thats the word I was looking for. Its been almost 3 yrs since d-day and I still can't comprehend the DBL betrayal. 

If you guys don't know I was an abusive husband and had a very unhealthy marriage for years, so the ONS and the STA I can deal with, but the DBL betrayal is tough.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hi all:

Thanks for the responses. 

IMO, I think it is accurate that anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray. 

I think it's just part of the cheaters selfish self absorbed personality traits to just go after what they want without any regard for friends family or the feelings of anyone but themselves. 

Thank you for reminding me of that.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

It says the participants did a sh!tty thing.

This sounds like a rhetorical question.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> IMO, I think it is accurate that anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray.


Totally disagree. Blanket statement.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Cheating sucks, period. No matter who does it with whom. I am certainly not going to say that any certain demographic are "always narcissists, sociopaths or psychopaths?" I don't like blanket statements labeling anyone, even cheaters.


Ha. I was just going to post something similar then read your statement.

Unfortunately a lot of people do have black and white thinking though. It's obvious from their posts. They are the one-size-fits-all posters. (i.e. I certainly would never tell you that reconciling wasn't in your marriages' best interest just cause I didn't reconcile in mine). Everyone's story is different. Know what I mean?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Totally disagree. Blanket statement.


Do you know what IMO, means?

Adding IMO, takes a statement out of the realm of a blanket statement. 

Still, deception is deception and all cheaters are extremely deceptive. 

Anyone who is capable of so easily deceiving a loved one has serous issues. 

Do you agree? Or do you say deceiving a loved one is normal behavior?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Ha. I was just going to post something similar then read your statement.
> 
> Unfortunately a lot of people do have black and white thinking though. It's obvious from their posts. They are the one-size-fits-all posters. (i.e. I certainly would never tell you that reconciling wasn't in your marriages' best interest just cause I didn't reconcile in mine). Everyone's story is different. Know what I mean?


I agree. We can't tell someone their reconciliation will fail. 

What we can say is that statistically successful reconciliations are rare.

A marriage may fail ten years after an affair, but the root cause is often the affair.

It is very difficult to trust after a betrayal. 

And, trust is the bedrock of a healthy marriage or any relationship. 

Because people stay married doesn't prove it is a good marriage. 

Many stay for financial reasons or self esteem issues or kids.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

IMO means "In my opinion."



Do you know what a difference of opinion is?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> IMO means "In my opinion."
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what a difference of opinion is?


Obviously but your comment about my statement preceded by IMO, suggest you do not.

Sorry if you misspoke, or I misinterpreted. Or perhaps a bit of both.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Prefacing an all or nothing statement with IMO doesn't change the fact it's still an all or nothing statement. _"anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray. "_ is a blanket statement, no matter what was typed before or after it.

And calling all cheaters narcissists and psychopaths is certainly not accurate.

Sara, a lot of your posts rub me the wrong way because you lump all cheaters together as complete and utter *******s. Period. Then later, you'll say something along the lines of "there may be a very few cheaters who are truly remorseful". But most times, that sentiment is lost in your initial post. We all know how hurt you were. We get that, we've been there. But when you make these blanket assertions, those of us who have truly remorseful spouses, or who ARE a truly remorseful spouse, get upset because you're basically saying we're living a lie. Especially from a psychological perspective. Don't take this the wrong way, but when you start using psychology on my husband, I just want to put you on my ignore list.

You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Prefacing an all or nothing statement with IMO doesn't change the fact it's still an all or nothing statement. _"anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray. "_ is a blanket statement, no matter what was typed before or after it.
> 
> And calling all cheaters narcissists and psychopaths is certainly not accurate.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup:

What Hope said! :iagree: 

Great post.

Also, to add, reconciliation DOES work for some couples. To paint all couples by the same brush does no one good, especially on a Marriage forum!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Hi all:
> 
> On this board and at the in-person support group I attended a few times, I heard horrific stories of double betrayals.
> 
> ...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

I like your responses, and resonate with them. 

However, if one has no conscience they are by definition a psychopath.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Somebody quote me, I think I'm being ignored.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Somebody quote me, I think I'm being ignored.


Done!


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Somebody quote me, I think I'm being ignored.


Done.


Personal opinion, the only difference I see is that you have two people deceiving you instead of one.

Cut them out of your life. A solution that works for me.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Done.
> 
> 
> Personal opinion, the only difference I see is that you have two people deceiving you instead of one.
> ...


I agree. 

Deceiving a loved one, particularly a spouse by dating behind their back and perhaps spending marital assets on that date, is a very treacherous disrespectful act. 

Deceiving a spouse and a best friend......whoa.

Why waste time. 

There is a saying. When someone shows you who they are, believe them.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I like you responses, and resonate with them.
> 
> However, if one has no conscience they are by definition a psychopath.


no conscience regarding certain things does not make a psychopath,however,no conscience about ANYTHING would fit the psychopath description.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I like you responses, and resonate with them.
> 
> However, if one has no conscience they are by definition a psychopath.


Personal opinion, conscience is a product of the moral values that have been inculcated since childhood. People have their own moral codes and hence a psychopath in someone's eyes will be a hero in the eyes of another. For example:- teen aged suicide bombers.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


Sara, do you think this is possible?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Personal opinion, conscience is a product of the moral values that have been inculcated since childhood. People have their own moral codes and hence a psychopath in someone's eyes will be a hero in the eyes of another. For example:- teen aged suicide bombers.


true.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


:iagree: As a BS even i find it distasteful when other BS's assign the same label for all cheaters.
It gives the impression that BS's as a whole are bitter and angry people who paint everyone with the broadest of brushes.

The great thoughts and often helpful advice gets drowned out by the other things.A WS might get a lot out of what a BS says but not if the BS is grouping all WS's in the same category constantly.That kind of stuff makes everyone shut down and no one is heard after that happens.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Prefacing an all or nothing statement with IMO doesn't change the fact it's still an all or nothing statement. _"anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray. "_ is a blanket statement, no matter what was typed before or after it.
> 
> And calling all cheaters narcissists and psychopaths is certainly not accurate.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Hope. I've been on both sides, as I have stated many times on here. The man my EA was with was a friend of both my husband and me. My husband's EA partner was a friend of both of ours as well. I am not a psychopath, nor sociopath, nor am I narcissistic. Not every cheater fits into that little mold. My husband doesn't fit the mold either.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> :iagree: As a BS even i find it distasteful when other BS's assign the same label for all cheaters.
> It gives the impression that BS's as a whole are bitter and angry people who paint everyone with the broadest of brushes.
> 
> The great thoughts and often helpful advice gets drowned out by the other things.A WS might get a lot out of what a BS says but not if the BS is grouping all WS's in the same category constantly.That kind of stuff makes everyone shut down and no one is heard after that happens.


Word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Thank you, Hope. I've been on both sides, as I have stated many times on here. The man my EA was with was a friend of both my husband and me. My husband's EA partner was a friend of both of ours as well. I am not a psychopath, nor sociopath, nor am I narcissistic. Not every cheater fits into that little mold. My husband doesn't fit the mold either.


nor does mine Maricha. He messed up. Plain and simple though very complicated. Bottom line: he's flawed. He recognizes this and is working diligently to fix those flaws that led to his EA. I too am flawed. However none of my flaws includes low self esteem or being a person who 'needs' my H so I CANT let go. I would assert those would more likely be the characteristics of a WS. The reason men often cheat is for the ego stroke which is derived sometimes from low self esteem. He never feels filled up.Yet they dont want to or cant find the strength to leave their wives..

My H is the father of my child, my friend, my confidant and he made a horrible god awful choice. NO one pays more each and everyday for that awful choice than he does. yes, I have pain and lack trust. But he questions who he is when he looks in the mirror. That is a punishment that goes every bit as deep as mine. The difference is that if I were to choose to walk away I'd be able to move forward because I dont question everything I thought I ever knew about myself. My H does and leaving or staying, that will be with him for a long time to come.

And as for double betrayals: to me it is about TWO very flawed people colliding. Like the stars are misaligned. What misery for everyone.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> you have affairs with people you know - who do you know better, right? I'd love to have an affair with someone my husbands knows..he's cheated so much I deserve it and better yet to someone he knows and likes and respects...awesome right....but alas, I don't have it in me and alas we spend all our time together with our child..no real time for friends and affairs. But you do who you know or who you pay - in my husbands case.


yep. Pretty much true. I think alot of affairs are just a matter of opportunity and proximity. Thats the reason for so many workplace affairs IMO. Certainly nothing special about most AP's I would imagine. Just opportunity. Proximity. Poor boundaries. so IOW's- as you said "You do who you know". i mean EA's are almost always 'accidental' initially. Not to say"it was an 'accident' and I couldnt help it" but rather they occur with the incidental people around us. People at work, church or in your social circle.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

BjornFree said:


> Personal opinion, conscience is a product of the moral values that have been inculcated since childhood. People have their own moral codes and hence a psychopath in someone's eyes will be a hero in the eyes of another. For example:- teen aged suicide bombers.


Bjorn

Actually that is not my opinion. It's what psychiatrists and psychologists believe. 

They can actually show on brain imaging tests that some people...likely sociopaths at the extreme or a psychopaths...., show no emotion to "normal" situations.

The parts of the emotional centers of the brain lack the appropriate electrical responses to so named normal or perhaps typical humans.

Google sociopaths/psychopaths. 

Google brain imaging for lack of conscience or empathy.

A serial killer is a psychopath but a psychopath is not always a serial killer. They can appear quite charming and normal and even succeed and rise to great power in the world. 

A suicide bomber is not without a conscience. Quite the opposite, they are on a crusade. They do have a conscience. They truly believe that they are doing something to make a statement that will save people who they believe are being oppressed or abused. 

So that is a mistaken comparison.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

boogie110 said:


> you have affairs with people you know - who do you know better, right? I'd love to have an affair with someone my husbands knows..he's cheated so much I deserve it and better yet to someone he knows and likes and respects...awesome right....but alas, I don't have it in me and alas we spend all our time together with our child..no real time for friends and affairs. But you do who you know or who you pay - in my husbands case.


Boogie:

Don't go to the dark side. Do not allow your husband's negative behaviors to force you into a situation you may abhor.

That will only make you feel worse, if your natural inclination was to remain faithful.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks all for the responses. 

Keep them coming, whether you disagree or agree. 

I would love to come back and talk to everyone on this thread 25 years from now.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


Sara, do you think this is possible?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> I would love to come back and talk to everyone on this thread 25 years from now.


What is that supposed to mean?


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Hi all:
> 
> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> IMO, I think it is accurate that anyone who cheats is the type who would double betray.


I agree with this. If opportunity and circumstance presents itself, I hardly think those who've chosen to step out of their marriage would be "picky" as to whom they cheat with. I mean, where did the moral compass come from all of a sudden? :scratchhead:



> I think it's just part of the cheaters selfish self absorbed personality traits to just go after what they want without any regard for friends family or the feelings of anyone but themselves.


Again, I agree with this.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Thanks all for the responses.
> 
> Keep them coming, whether you disagree or agree.
> 
> I would love to come back and talk to everyone on this thread 25 years from now.


If our kids choose to throw us a 37th anniversary party, I'll be sure to invite you..... unless, of course, you would prefer waiting til 40th? You know, nice round number and all... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> What is that supposed to mean?


Pretty sure you can figure it out Jellybeans. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Well I had an inkling but wanted to hear from her.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> What is that supposed to mean?


That we are ALL wrong and are gonna wind up divorced old hags who just wished they had listened.....


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> If our kids choose to throw us a 37th anniversary party, I'll be sure to invite you..... unless, of course, you would prefer waiting til 40th? You know, nice round number and all...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


yeah, in 25 yrs we will be married 41 years. And will have absolutely earned our way there. thru thick and thin. Better and worse.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Complexity said:


> I agree with this. If opportunity and circumstance presents itself, I hardly think those who've chosen to step out of their marriage would be "picky" as to whom they cheat with. I mean, where did the moral compass come from all of a sudden? :scratchhead:


That's where my opinion lies, too. 

IMO, a cheater man or woman who got caught may stop because the expense of a divorce outwieghs the joy of cheating or perhaps they were shamed in their social circle. 

But if those factors disappear, like if they suddenly win the lottery, or they find a new more cheating supportive social circle, and opportunity arises, they most likely will once again take it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> Thanks all for the responses.
> 
> Keep them coming, whether you disagree or agree.
> 
> I would love to come back and talk to everyone on this thread 25 years from now.


You'd have to take us off ignore first.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> That we are ALL wrong and are gonna wind up divorced old hags who just wished they had listened.....


:rofl: Well I guess I am up on the list of hags since I'm already divorced. 

As for "old"...not for awhile for me. Muahahahaha! 

And I would gladly love to grow into an old hag with you ladies. Looks like I would be in good company! :smthumbup:


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl: Well I guess I am up on the list of hags since I'm already divorced.
> 
> As for "old"...not for awhile for me. Muahahahaha!
> 
> And I would gladly love to grow into an old hag with you ladies. Looks like I would be in good company! :smthumbup:


Oh yeah, in 25 years I'll be 72!!!! Dry as a bone and twice as hard.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> You'd have to take us off ignore first.


Let me see....in 25 years. A condo in the mountains, a couple of grandchildren and my H bringing me coffee on the back deck outside our bedroom... sounds like heaven. 

sara if you give your address I'll invite you to the mountains.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hopefully my hip replacement will allow the full range of motion.


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## Complexity (Dec 31, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> That's where my opinion lies, too.
> 
> IMO, a cheater man or woman who got caught may stop because the expense of a divorce outwieghs the joy of cheating or perhaps they were shamed in their social circle.
> 
> But if those factors disappear, like if they suddenly win the lottery, or they find a new more cheating supportive social circle, and opportunity arises, they most likely will once again take it.


This is true. It make you wonder that if there were no impediments to continuing the affair i.e the threat of divorce and the financial damage that comes with it, would cheaters ever really "stop". I mean, what incentive is there to come back to the marriage? 

Very few people actually take their vows seriously these days anyway. I look at most modern marriages as boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with a ring attached.


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## Airbus (Feb 8, 2012)

Well, Sara8, here's something I'd like to throw in the pot: double betrayers? It can be too much of a good thing, when you're constantly socializing with another couple. I think that sometimes couples who spend a lot of time with one other couple are flirting with the possibility of something being struck up. Boundaries get blurred, lines get crossed, and the next thing you know, 'the 4 of us' is in actuality 'the 6 of us', because Sally decided to start inappropriately texting Jake behind her husband Jim's back...Jake's wife Karen has no idea. They all keep getting together on weekends, they travel together, their kids are friends...what a ticking time bomb.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Hopefully my hip replacement will allow the full range of motion.


Hi all:

May I gently request that you all try to stay at least close to the thread topic. Try to keep it serious. Cheating is not a joke, and this thread was sincerely posted wanting serious responses.

And may I gently request that some please refrain from posting the same question over and over if your question goes unanswered. I believe that is called "spamming" a thread. 

There is no rule a question must be answered.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Hopefully my hip replacement will allow the full range of motion.


Haha! I can't wait to be an old lady and wear elastic pants. I am serious, too. 

I am done with this thread. Have fun, guys


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Complexity said:


> This is true. It make you wonder that if there were no impediments to continuing the affair i.e the threat of divorce and the financial damage that comes with it, would cheaters ever really "stop". I mean, what incentive is there to come back to the marriage?
> 
> Very few people actually take their vows seriously these days anyway. I look at most modern marriages as boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with a ring attached.


True and very sad. 

That is why cheating in general and double betrayals are both rising dramatically. 

Women under 35 is the group that is rising the most rapidly. 

It's trendy to cheat and almost socially acceptable, in any age group these days.

For men, too, they are naturally visually attracted to women in their late teens and early 20s. 

And if a woman is pushy and is attracted to the financial security an older man may offer, it becomes difficult for SOME older men to turn down the ego gratifying and arm jewelry opportunity offered by a very young trophy girlfriend. 

And for a cheating women, if the husband is not earning enough, she is naturally self absorbed and ever attracted to the older more financially secure man's earnings. 

Kinda' interesting from a philosophical perspective.

There's little in the way of social taboo against cheating. 

People joke about cheating, whereas they used to frown upon it.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Airbus said:


> Well, Sara8, here's something I'd like to throw in the pot: double betrayers? It can be too much of a good thing, when you're constantly socializing with another couple. I think that sometimes couples who spend a lot of time with one other couple are flirting with the possibility of something being struck up. Boundaries get blurred, lines get crossed, and the next thing you know, 'the 4 of us' is in actuality 'the 6 of us', because Sally decided to start inappropriately texting Jake behind her husband Jim's back...Jake's wife Karen has no idea. They all keep getting together on weekends, they travel together, their kids are friends...what a ticking time bomb.


Good point. 

And, when you hear of double betrayals in which people cheat on their best friend forever, it's so sad and sleazy.


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## Airbus (Feb 8, 2012)

So true, Sara. My best friend (she was single) started an affair with an attached man she worked with...well, that same man is now single, and openly dating a married woman. WTF is wrong with people?


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## Airbus (Feb 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Good point.
> 
> And, when you hear of double betrayals in which people cheat on their best friend forever, it's so sad and sleazy.


I'm kinda glad me and my husband are loners...we don't do much socializing at all compared to many couples.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Airbus said:


> So true, Sara. My best friend (she was single) started an affair with an attached man she worked with...well, that same man is now single, and openly dating a married woman. WTF is wrong with people?


I hear ya'.

I wish I had answers.

But one thing I learned by posting on TAM there are a lot of people both men and women who think cheating is wrong.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


Sara, do you think this is possible?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Airbus said:


> I'm kinda glad me and my husband are loners...we don't do much socializing at all compared to many couples.


I do think that is a good idea. Or at least stay very alert, if you do have close friends.

Going forward, after reading about so many double betrayals from supposed best friends, If I ever want to date again, I would be very cautious about having a friend spend alone time with my new boyfriend or spouse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

My ex tried to get me involved with other women. I did feel an attraction; I must admit. I stopped short of any kind of betrayal. 

I would get to the point of feeling I wanted to say something and set up an encounter. When it got down to brass tacks, however, I could not do it. I just valued my commitment to my ex-wife more than I valued an affair. I knew it was a life-long commitment. I wanted that. 

I suppose, if I was still single, but in a relationship, I may have done something with these other women. I don't know. 

Maybe that is the key. Maybe my WS felt as though the marriage commitment was more like a single's relationship. Who knows?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> My ex tried to get me involved with other women. I did feel an attraction; I must admit. I stopped short of any kind of betrayal.
> 
> I would get to the point of feeling I wanted to say something and set up an encounter. When it got down to brass tacks, however, I could not do it. I just valued my commitment to my ex-wife more than I valued an affair. I knew it was a life-long commitment. I wanted that.
> 
> ...


Hi 2ntnuf:

If she was trying to get you involved that was more like an open relationship situation. 

Still, I am glad you said "NO", open relationships almost always have problems related to the open dating situation. 

It is a rare person who can overcome the jealousy that inevitably arises.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> You have a lot of good stuff to say. It would just be nice if you could tone down the assertions that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.


Sara, do you think this is possible? Can I gently request that you answer?


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Sara,
You are one of the posters whose posts I follow regularly. I often find your arguments well-reasoned and thought out most of the time. But I am also having difficulty with your attempt to globally classify cheating and linking it with disorders.
One of the issues I had to figure out was how to deal with conflicting emotions. Affairs especially EAs are based on emotions which are often contrary to what one would reason out. It would be nice to be able to reclassify someone with a disorder to help remove them from our lives but I don’t think that will really work. For me especially that doesn’t work.
My wife hasn’t betrayed me (to my knowledge) but I have been betrayed by a fiancé and recently by a couple of people who I thought were close friends. I want to hate them but I can’t totally. All of them are basically good people even though they have failed me at one time or another while seeking goals that were not consistent with my goals. I took a retreat this summer by myself and considered this conflict of feelings in depth. I can’t deny that with each one of them there were good times and bad. I decided that I didn’t really want to try to erase all of the good things away by reclassifying them as non-entities or scum (which is really what I have felt with each one). This hatred that I had, I really needed to let go. 
Earlier this year I read a great story (Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand) about a fellow who was a POW and found that to fully recover from the years of torment and abuse, he had to let go of the hatred. The point was all the hatred did was inflict pain and suffering upon the person hating. There is an interesting quote one of my friends told me (they didn’t attribute it) “Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.” 
This is the point of letting go. I chose to minimize the overlap of my life with those that betray me. I don’t have much to do with them and with one absolutely nothing. But yet I have let go and forgiven each one and have sought to understand their goal which led to their betrayal. Some I have told and some I have not seen since the betrayal and may never get chance to communicate the forgiveness. But that act of letting go has done more for healing me than relegating them into the dust bin of scum bags. I now can remember good things fondly and the betrayal still hurts but I understand even though I don’t agree. They are each humans reacting to emotions and the betrayals were specific actions not the summation of their being.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sara8 said:


> There is no rule a question must be answered.


I see you edited your post an hour after you posted it to add this.

No, there's no rule a question must be answered. I will assume that you are refusing to answer on the grounds that it will incriminate you then?

I find your continual cheater-bashing to be detrimental to my TAM experience, and I know I am not alone. All I am asking is that you refrain from it in the interest of the community.


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## chumplady (Jul 27, 2012)

> Sara, do you think this is possible? Can I gently request that you answer?


I read this whole thread because I was interested in the topic at hand -- my husband was a BS and his ex cheated with his best friend since childhood (among many others) -- but frankly, this thread seems to be a weird attack on the OP.

I don't see where she said in her original question, or elsewhere on this thread that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth. 

If she entitled the thread "Are All Cheaters the Scum of the Earth?" I could understand the antipathy and the ensuing discussion, but it's about double betrayal. 

So on that subject -- I think it's about opportunity. Similar to workplace affairs. The person is there, in your circle frequently. If you lack boundaries and you need ego kibbles, and you're inclined to cheat -- it's easy pickings.

I imagine those cheaters live in an imaginary universe in which they won't get caught or no one will be the wiser -- so if it's Bob the Best Friend, it's not much different than Bob I Met on Craig's list. 

But of course it is a HUGE difference to the person who got betrayed. But the BS wasn't considered.

Speaking for my husband's situation, I do think there was an element of tearing him down, in a sick passive aggressive way. Both the ex and the AP are narcissistic without much by the way of accomplishment. My H on the other hand is a successful guy. I think in a sick way, they were evening the score. Knocking him down a peg.

I also don't think it's awful to speculate if some cheaters are disordered. IMO serial cheaters are disordered. It's not exactly a radical minority opinion. Check out the works of Dr. George Simon at Dr. George K Simon, Author, In Sheep -- he's been working on "character disturbance" for over 30 years and in prison populations.


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## Mtts (Apr 16, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I see you edited your post an hour after you posted it to add this.
> 
> No, there's no rule a question must be answered. I will assume that you are refusing to answer on the grounds that it will incriminate you then?
> 
> I find your continual cheater-bashing to be detrimental to my TAM experience, and I know I am not alone. All I am asking is that you refrain from it in the interest of the community.


I think a better solution is if you don't like whats being said, unsubscribe to the topic.

I'm unclear why you felt the need to continually ask the same question over and over. I can understand if you disagree with the idea that all cheaters are scum. Rightfully that's your own position to take. To ask someone to remove that notion however is silly. 

The OP has every right to say I find anyone who cheats to be scum and their value has been removed. Regardless of whether that statement resonates with you or not is besides the point. To further that how does it personally affect you that the OP holds this view? Does it change the dynamic of your ability to heal from your spouses cheating? 

The answer is obvious, no it doesn't. You can choose to let it affect you, but that's a choice. It's your choice to participate in the thread, if you find the OP to be breaking any rules, flag the post and move on. 

**EDIT**
I think a even better suggestion is take it to PM's/report it to the site and let them deal with it. Attempting to police threads is distracting, I'm sure you can add more value than repeating the same thing a half dozen times. 

/rant


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

chumplady said:


> So on that subject -- I think it's about opportunity. Similar to workplace affairs. The person is there, in your circle frequently. If you lack boundaries and you need ego kibbles, and you're inclined to cheat -- it's easy pickings.
> 
> I imagine those cheaters live in an imaginary universe in which they won't get caught or no one will be the wiser -- so if it's Bob the Best Friend, it's not much different than Bob I Met on Craig's list.
> 
> But of course it is a HUGE difference to the person who got betrayed. But the BS wasn't considered.


This is really the difference for me. The motivations are different for different people. Some are propelled by emotions that they can't describe while others coldly calculate the affair. Because the motivations are so varied attributing a global classification to cheaters is not useful. It doesn't help to understand and worse it mis-attributes factors that may not have mattered for the initiator.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Mtts said:


> I think a better solution is if you don't like whats being said, unsubscribe to the topic.
> 
> I'm unclear why you felt the need to continually ask the same question over and over. I can understand if you disagree with the idea that all cheaters are scum. Rightfully that's your own position to take. To ask someone to remove that notion however is silly.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll consider all that


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hi Mtts

Excellent post. and thank you,

Where do your report a person whom you feels is leveling personal attacks and spamming your thread with provocative demands to respond? 

I am not a big one for reporting people, but in this case, it may be warranted.

BTW: The posters question has been answered if she/he was paying attention. 



Mtts said:


> I think a better solution is if you don't like whats being said, unsubscribe to the topic.
> 
> I'm unclear why you felt the need to continually ask the same question over and over. I can understand if you disagree with the idea that all cheaters are scum. Rightfully that's your own position to take. To ask someone to remove that notion however is silly.
> 
> ...


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Hi Chumplady. 

Thank You for the post and interesting link. 

Sadly, IMO, a lot of people particularly loyal spouses do not understand psychology or the power of the mind and thus they reconcile thinking that the Cheating spouse has the same integrity and impulse control they do. 







chumplady said:


> I read this whole thread because I was interested in the topic at hand -- my husband was a BS and his ex cheated with his best friend since childhood (among many others) -- but frankly, this thread seems to be a weird attack on the OP.
> 
> I don't see where she said in her original question, or elsewhere on this thread that ALL cheaters are the scum of the earth.
> 
> ...


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

My mum was the "OW". She had an affair with her sisters husband for around a year, so that was a double betrayal for my aunt, betrayed by her sister and husband. 

Oh and my mums a narcissist too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I think the betrayal is worse than if the betrayal is with random strange. If my husband cheated with my best girlfriend, I would be so hurt, sad & depressed that I could never get over it & for my own sanity, would have to cut both of them out of my life.

If my husband cheats with random strange, I will consider R depending on all of the facts.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

ubercoolpanda said:


> My mum was the "OW". She had an affair with her sisters husband for around a year, so that was a double betrayal for my aunt, betrayed by her sister and husband.
> 
> Oh and my mums a narcissist too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for adding your input. 

I like chumplady's link, too. 

Particularly the post on predatory manipulators, a category into which pathological narcissist fall. 

My STBEH was diagnoses and having heavy narcissitic traits. 

He is very charming in a deceptive way, and If he were not outed anonymously, again, I would still be thinking our reconciliation was going well. 

It is so nice to be clued in, finally.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Emerald said:


> I think the betrayal is worse than if the betrayal is with random strange. If my husband cheated with my best girlfriend, I would be so hurt, sad & depressed that I could never get over it & for my own sanity, would have to cut both of them out of my life.
> 
> If my husband cheats with random strange, I will consider R depending on all of the facts.


I agree, emerald.

After my hustbands affair I am had so much trouble trusting my own judgement. It is finally coming back to where I can trust myself mainly because of understanding Personality disorders and how these people can fool their own mother, or cops or judges. 

Still, if my best friend had been the one cheating with my husband, I doubt I could ever trust my judgement again. 

I think that is why when I first showed the OW's innocent spouse the thread in which she talked about cheating with his best friend, and her good friend, that the OW's husband was so resistant to hearing me out. 

He was an intelligent guy, though, and he finally called me after coming out of his denial.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Ok, Sara, serious question here. First, I want to say that I can totally agree with the position regarding best friend or even sibling. I think, if it was one of my sisters or a woman I considered my BEST friend, then I wouldn't be able to recover from that. Pretty sure my husband would be the same way in that respect.

But what of online/text/email/gaming EA only? What of those who are considered friends, but not best friends? Mine was with a man who my husband and I both considered a friend. Same with the woman my husband had an EA with. We only knew them online. But was still a friend, it was still an affair. But, upon looking up the traits of narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths on various psychology websites, I confirmed that neither my husband nor I have those traits. This is why I was saying that not every double betrayal fits that description.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Ok, Sara, serious question here. First, I want to say that I can totally agree with the position regarding best friend or even sibling. I think, if it was one of my sisters or a woman I considered my BEST friend, then I wouldn't be able to recover from that. Pretty sure my husband would be the same way in that respect.
> 
> But what of online/text/email/gaming EA only? What of those who are considered friends, but not best friends? Mine was with a man who my husband and I both considered a friend. Same with the woman my husband had an EA with. We only knew them online. But was still a friend, it was still an affair. But, upon looking up the traits of narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths on various psychology websites, I confirmed that neither my husband nor I have those traits. This is why I was saying that not every double betrayal fits that description.


Mariacha:

If you really delve into personality disorders, you will learn that many psych pros avoid dealing with them. 

They are very manipulative and are known to manipulate psych pros, TOO, so an untrained person can not possibly diagnose their own spouse. In fact that is why doctors and psych pros can not treat their own family members. They are too emotionally involved and can not see the true persona clearly.

Also, it is very difficult to diagnose many of the more abberant personality disorders. 

The Personality disordered people are masters at the con. They appear charming, good, contrite, only as an act and for self serving reasons. 

As for an EA the includes sex talk. I don't think there is a difference. As the buddhist say regarding negative karma, it is INTENT that makes the action bad. 

Unless one reads minds they will never know the cheaters true intent with an EA. 

My STBEH initially tried to convince me he had only a harmless EA.

The anonymous proof showed otherwise. 

Also, during our initial attempt at reconciliation, he was super loving and kind and seemed to be oh so compliant. 

But he misbehaved again, because in his own words, he RESENTED having to be transparent to keep the marriage together. 

Had his continued brief meetings with the AP and the men's bar issue not been outed anonymously, I would have been none the wiser. 

My point is that someone that can so hurt someone they love is lacking in something. 

Opportunity abounds for everyone. As I have mentioned many times. In addition to the businesses I own and operate, I work as a freelance fitness instructor at a high end club. 

I had plenty of opportunity from attractive, wealthy, pushy men. I just said NO.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Thank you for adding your input.
> 
> I like chumplady's link, too.
> 
> ...


I'm happy you got some reliable info. This is what I was lacking and it caused great harm to me. A lack of evidence causes stagnation in decisions and only allows the offender to gain unfounded "moral" ground.

I just wanted to add that, I am really enjoying this thread. Thank you, Sara8 and many others who have posted. What I have read, good and bad, has been very informative and thought provoking.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I'm happy you got some reliable info. This is what I was lacking and it caused great harm to me. A lack of evidence causes stagnation in decisions and only allows the offender to gain unfounded "moral" ground.
> 
> I just wanted to add that, I am really enjoying this thread. Thank you, Sara8 and many others who have posted. What I have read, good and bad, has been very informative and thought provoking.


I am sorry to hear that you never received definitive proof of the affair. 

The psych pros do say that the when the evidence is heavy in pointing toward cheating, but the cheating spouse won't admit it or has covered their tracks too well, that does cause a lot more strife for the hurt spouse. 

One thing that scares me that I see on this board and at in-person support groups is how easy it is for some to hide their affairs or to get caught only for the hurt spouse to find out years later that it simply went deep underground. 

Being caught often shows the cheater how NOT to slip up again. 

It's all so sad.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> If you really delve into personality disorders, you will learn that many psych pros avoid dealing with them.
> 
> They are very manipulative and are known to manipulate psych pros, TOO, so an untrained person can not possibly diagnose their own spouse. In fact that is why doctors and psych pros can not treat their own family members. They are too emotionally involved and can not see the true persona clearly.
> 
> ...


I do remember some of that from my college psych classes. Plus, I remember looking up all of those personality disorders when my youngest sister (Raven1983) was still with her husband. Even today, I was going through the checklist on each disorder and we, again, recognized the traits in her STBXH. If there was anything in there that described my husband, she would have told me. She's as outspoken as I am lol. She also won't hesitate to call me out on my own bs. 

My husband does not have the traits. Charming? Contrite? "Good"? LOL my husband is abrasive and can even be downright rude sometimes. Yes, he has always been that way. When we first met (online), I thought he was a jackass. We joke about that ALL the time lol. But something was there... likely, his brutal honesty about everything. But, no, my husband is far from charming. :rofl:



Sara8 said:


> As for an EA the includes sex talk. I don't think there is a difference. As the buddhist say regarding negative karma, it is INTENT that makes the action bad.
> 
> Unless one reads minds they will never know the cheaters true intent with an EA.
> 
> My STBEH initially tried to convince me he had only a harmless EA.


I agree with you, totally, about EAs. And, there is NOTHING "harmless" about one, contrary to what your STBXH may think. You are right, we don't know the intent. We can't read minds. I can't say that, had my EA partner lived closer, it wouldn't have gone PA. I can't say that. All I can say is that the EA did not, and when presented with the opportunity to go PA with someone here, I shut him down, cold. And, I think that's what REALLY woke me up...saw where I had been headed. By that time, my EA had been ended for about 2 months. I mean completely ended, no contact at all in either direction. And that's when I noticed what was beginning with my husband. His was a RA, I believe. He thought I wouldn't care because of my own behavior. So, yea, definitely not harmless.. not even close.



Sara8 said:


> But he misbehaved again, because in his own words, he RESENTED having to be transparent to keep the marriage together.


And that's another difference. I have no resentment. My husband has access to my communications and I have access to his. We don't constantly check, but the option is still there. Big difference between then and now. He has made comments that he needs to clean out his email inbox. I offer to do it if he wants... he says "go for it"... he never deletes anything... NEVER. OMG! All the spam he gets.  But if he asks for my phone, I don't hesitate. I have no problem with it. 



Sara8 said:


> My point is that someone that can so hurt someone they love is lacking in something.


In my case, I know what was lacking... now. In my case, I professed to be a Christian, and wasn't living what I professed to believe. I got so far away from it that I started down the wrong path... my choice, I know. My choice to walk so far away from God. My choice to turn my attentions elsewhere. My choice to seek attention elsewhere. But that was what happened. Back on the right path now and I can see the difference in my marriage and even in how I relate to others. Yes, there was more to what happened with us, but that was the root of it....walking away from God.



Sara8 said:


> Opportunity abounds for everyone.


Yep, I agree... it's always around us.



Sara8 said:


> I had plenty of opportunity from attractive, wealthy, pushy men. I just said NO.


 And, I am glad you did. I wish _I_ had "just said NO". I wish I had recognized the early signs of my EA and walked away then. But I didn't. And it's something I have to live with for the rest of my life.


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I do remember some of that from my college psych classes. Plus, I remember looking up all of those personality disorders when my youngest sister (Raven1983) was still with her husband. Even today, I was going through the checklist on each disorder and we, again, recognized the traits in her STBXH. If there was anything in there that described my husband, she would have told me. She's as outspoken as I am lol. She also won't hesitate to call me out on my own bs.
> 
> My husband does not have the traits. Charming? Contrite? "Good"? LOL my husband is abrasive and can even be downright rude sometimes. Yes, he has always been that way. When we first met (online), I thought he was a jackass. We joke about that ALL the time lol. But something was there... likely, his brutal honesty about everything. But, no, my husband is far from charming. :rofl:
> 
> ...


Mariacha:

There are lots of exceptions to the scenarios I have described. 

You and your spouse appear to be exceptions and I am glad your MC confirmed that your spouse did not have a personality disorder.


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