# Do you find yourself defending your gender?



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I sometimes find myself defending "women" on TAM, even when I know IRL I would not really defend what is being discussed. Please don't ask for details. 

I just put myself in the place of the group being discussed, and the comments then seem so judgmental and hurtful. I feel like I cannot *not* defend "women" as a group in those instances.

Does this happen to you, too?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Nope. I am a female but a very logical, unemotional one. If I had to identify with a group, it would likely be males. I rarely understand female behavior any more than they do.


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## marriedmanhere (Aug 2, 2012)

I am a middle aged, white, conservative male.

If you listen to most of the media in this country, then I am responsible for most of what is wrong in this world. 
Because of that, I tend to look for examples of men being bashed just because they are men.

But that being said, I know how men think and I can usually see through men and tell when they are in the wrong.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Yes, I can't defend about 60% of young men because:

-They're idiots who clown around to impress.
-They drink too much.
-They have tantrums like little girls.
-They bear grudges for slights. They are complete quivering cowards when not surrounded by a pack.
-They talk about themselves too much.
-They don't value women as companions, while they over-value notches on bedposts.
-They're vain beyond belief. No wonder there's so many mirrors in the free weights area of gyms.

All in all, they're getting to be like Prima Donnas. I blame a lack of real male role models.

Won't be long before they start carrying purses with poodles in.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Mostly, I try to defend people from bad advice. 

Which is why I sometimes have nothing to say.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Not really. Defend against what? There are some posters here that believe there is a war against men. I don't believe this. I honestly think its all in their heads. 

Now, I am guilty of not apologizing for acting and thinking like a man. Which some find offensive, but I can live with that.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Sandfly said:


> All in all, they're getting to be like Prima Donnas. I blame a lack of real male role models.
> 
> Won't be long before they start carrying purses with poodles in.


:rofl: in my part of the world professional soccer players are role models for the other half... male purses.... check... poodles... probably soon. Seen a chihuahua already.

But I would stick up for some others jld. Not all men are useless unthrustworthy dogs. Generalizing never covers all of it, usually only the bad elements. Goes for men AND women.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Quiet the opposite, I find myself defending women more than men. That's simply because I've been around so many men and my opinion of MOST (not all) is rather low.....

REGARDLESS of above, in general I try to ignore gender and just focus on situation at hand. And just do my best to give the best advice possible.

I try not to let my experience effect my advice....or any "generalizations"


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> I sometimes find myself defending "women" on TAM, even when I know IRL I would not really defend what is being discussed. Please don't ask for details.
> 
> *I just put myself in the place of the group being discussed, and the comments then seem so judgmental and hurtful. I feel like I cannot *not* defend "women" as a group in those instances.*
> 
> Does this happen to you, too?


At least you're honest with yourself , jld, and kudos for that!:smthumbup:

For some people, honesty is like Akkadian cuneiform , a complex polyvalent , dead language.

The average person put in the situation you just described would jump to the defence of their gender.

But both genders have their general shortcomings, as individuals, we all do and say really , really ,stupid things sometimes and some people do it all the time.

So maybe , the question might not be,
_do you find yourself defending your gender ?_
Because we all want to belong to a group or clique and feel obligated to tow the political lines.

Maybe the question should be,
"_ Do you find yourself defending stupidity?_" 

I don't think anything is intrinsically wrong in defending one's own gender.
But I think _defending_ stupidity might actually be a pathological condition.

Because stupidity has absolutely no bias for gender.


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## over20 (Nov 15, 2013)

jld said:


> I sometimes find myself defending "women" on TAM, even when I know IRL I would not really defend what is being discussed. Please don't ask for details.
> 
> I just put myself in the place of the group being discussed, and the comments then seem so judgmental and hurtful. I feel like I cannot *not* defend "women" as a group in those instances.
> 
> Does this happen to you, too?


I do think people take more risks talking in the cyber world compared to face to face, maybe that's why things can get heated fast.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I'll defend someone if I feel they're correct.I won't defend someone based on gender loyalty. I have no gender loyalty.I defend men a lot.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There's a lot of gender bickering on this forum, more so than any other forum I've ever visited.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a lot of gender bickering on this forum, more so than any other forum I've ever visited.


I would almost expect that given the nature of this forum. Many, if not most of the things being discussed are related to problems between husbands and wives, men and women.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I don't know...I've been on several others where the gender bickering doesn't happen.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

There seems to be a lot more projection and generalization going on here. A lot of the men seem hell bent to prove all women are a certain way. But maybe I'm just seeing it that way bc I'm a female.


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## Mrs Chai (Sep 14, 2010)

I feel the 'gender war' is mostly something I experience on TAM and that is just the nature of this forum. We are, after all, discussing the interaction between the two genders in the most extreme measures - most of the time.

I take most of what is discussed here on TAM with a grain of salt, as we get opinions and viewpoints of people at different periods of their life, with vastly different experiences, as well at different emotional points in their life.

That is what makes it so interesting  


But me personally? I do not feel as if I particularly lean towards gender defending. It is all so circumstantial.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Something I have probably learnt on TAM is to have slightly higher standards for women. I found myself shrugging my shoulders at women doing something, but being genuinely shocked that a man would do it. That men are as bad as women is something I am embarrassed to say I had not realised.

I do recall a conversation about a man working on a oil rig and the wife being annoyed as he was doing this rather than getting a lower paid job, spending more time with the family and allowing her to go to college. My thought was that he might be doing this work to make ends meet and she might not be financially realistic, but I was with the men and most women disagreed. Clearly, I am inclined to take the sex side.

It is not that I would claim alligence with men, but as a heterosexual man I have seen women doing things in relationships doing things the would absolutely deny doing, whereas I have not had the same harsh light on male behaviour.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I tend to address issues less than individual posters. I do keep their individual situations in mind and of course I am aware of their gender, but gender has less of an influence on my position than does behavior. 

As for the gender bickering here, I tend to think it's a small subset of posters who do it fairly constantly, thus making it seem like its more pervasive on the forum than it really is.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a lot of gender bickering on this forum, more so than any other forum I've ever visited.


Same. Most of mine they just boot women from because they aren’t men (NMMNG). Then there is no bickering.  Here, there are extremist opinions represented on opposite sides of that spectrum. Clashing will happen. I haven’t seen it get real bad though. I do frequent some forums that are serious rough and tumble places where you have to have a thick skin.

To be honest, I believe there are some who ‘troll bait’ and say anything that might get them more “likes” and attention… Gender wars is tasty bait that sucks people in.

And I do get sucked in "Go Men!!":bounce:


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)




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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> There's a lot of gender bickering on this forum, more so than any other forum I've ever visited.


It is the same on every relationship specific board I have ever been in.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I cannot understand the strong desire to define an entire gender. Along with being completely impossible, it adds no objective benefit to almost any discussion.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've been on several relationship specific boards and never seen this before. Except like Racer said, NMMNG, where they don't allow women to post.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I am very logical but also empathetic to the sensitive needs of my own gender..

It's always more about the ISSUE/ contention / it's roots...not a siding with one gender automatically over another..

If anything... I think I am guilty of defending MEN more so than women...maybe because I landed here very high drive.. feeling I wronged my own husband, so every post where a good man was struggling to get more sex , I sympathized with him.... 

I also like a little porn, this doesn't win me brownie points with a lot of women on TAM...and no one would call me a feminist...I alienate myself some more... I also like Athol Kay & can see how his book/website helps a certain segment of men.....

YET... I so understand women's emotional needs, for affection , her H putting her #1... her desire for a Family.. to feel HEARD and understood.. I feel pms is real.. but also -so is the man's antsy need for lots of sex... how we need to have some grace towards each other in these areas...reasonably of course...

I try to stay open minded and understanding of both sides.. I don't want to fall into a Gender bias. I consider myself a very independent thinker...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've been on several relationship specific boards and never seen this before. Except like Racer said, NMMNG, where they don't allow women to post.


Huh. Have you ever been over to city-data/relationships? Frickin awful.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've been on several relationship specific boards and never seen this before. Except like Racer said, NMMNG, where they don't allow women to post.


Or SI, where the head admin is female and (I'll edit to stay polite)... So she bans anyone (which is usually male... hmmmm) that notices the different treatment.

So ya... no gender wars there. Heavily moderated in a way that I'd say is heavily gender biased. 

Another; Pandora's Aquarium, due to the subject manner (rape) is not only heavily moderated, but also heavily female in subscribers. Men should be ready to tolerate a lot of anger towards our gender and STFU. So no gender wars there, but there is gender bashing. (Haven't gone back in years though so it might be different now... just sort of doubt it).


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I cannot understand the strong desire to define an entire gender. Along with being completely impossible, it adds no objective benefit to almost any discussion.


100% :iagree:


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I defend on merit, not gender. 
I don't believe in stereotyping people based on gender or that ALL men are like this or ALL women are like that.

But what does puzzle me are the women on this board that dislike women purely because of their gender. It is irrational.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I admit to having a hair trigger sensitivity to women bashing. Fortunately, it is RARE to find anyone bashing females in general here at TAM. 

Believe it or not, there is very little that I post here that I would shy away from saying IRL.

One of the things I like so much about TAM is that both men and women are quick to jump on gender bashing on both sides. Good job TAM members!


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nope not interested in defending other men. Some are not worth defending anyway here on TAM or in real life. Besides who would I be defending them against? Anyone who is going to gender bash or cyber bully is a small person. If I wanted an incoherent argument about the worlds not fair I would pick one with my 8 year old.

I have been more defensive about women actually especially on a few threads about divorce. Some of that comes from my professional experience and other part is because I have daughters I suppose.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've never been on another board where I was routinely called a feminist, even though I've never self-identified as one. I've never seen feminist used as a name-calling thing before like that, on any other relationship board. I wasn't aware that some men think being a feminist is so dang horrible before I came to TAM.

That really shocked me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Wolf1974 said:


> *Nope not interested in defending other men. Some are not worth defending anyway here on TAM or in real life.* Besides who would I be defending them against? Anyone who is going to gender bash or cyber bully is a small person. If I wanted an incoherent argument about the worlds not fair I would pick one with my 8 year old.
> 
> *I have been more defensive about women actually especially on a few threads about divorce. Some of that comes from my professional experience and other part is because I have daughters I suppose*.


If I had to guess my husband would speak LIKE YOU on this.. whereas I often see the Man' side..(because I could have been a better wife in the past, he was the best, I was the slacker in some ways)..... now if all the woman could go out of their way to understand the Man's side...recognizing ALL he does...and his contribution... 

And all the MEN go out of their way to understand their wives side / her needs & cares......her contribution to the family, what she brings.... I believe it could transform many marriages.. if we could just walk in the others shoes a little while, it would open our eyes.....

We have 5 sons and 1 daughter, so of course I worry about my boys, they are NICE boys..they treat girls with respect.. after being here just a short time , seems all that will do in life is get them to finish last in this society.. A mother doesn't want to see her sons taken advantage of.. anymore than a Father worries her daughter will be swept off her feet/ blinded by the allure of a Bad boy who will trample her heart & hurt her...... 

We talk to our kids a lot about character... how important communication is/ conflict resolution... honesty, and not missing red flags while dating... Compatibility , knowing yourself & your needs...and his or hers ...is just THAT IMPORTANT before marrying.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It's funny, you and I see so many things the same way, SA, but I don't worry about my boys at all. I don't think I even need to worry about my daughter. They all have very good boundaries, at least the older ones. The younger ones are still pretty small.

I think on these boards we just don't see both sides. We hear one side and feel very sorry for the person. The few times I have read both sides I have found it enlightening.

I have a hard time with threads criticizing women, because I think women are vulnerable in life, not only because they are physically weaker than men, but because of their childbearing capabilities. My husband sees things this way, too, and so it has affected our vision of marriage. He doesn't think twice about taking responsibility for the marriage. To him, that is completely normal.

That goes against the feminist grain of many. To me, it seems perfectly normal. And yet I feel like I have to support "the sisterhood." Conflicted.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I wasn't aware that some men think being a feminist is so dang horrible before I came to TAM.
> 
> That really shocked me.


Me too. Also surprised by the constant, very traditional gender stereotyping.

I thought all that was ancient history.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Lol.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> It's funny, you and I see so many things the same way, SA, but I don't worry about my boys at all. I don't think I even need to worry about my daughter. They all have very good boundaries, at least the older ones. The younger ones are still pretty small.
> 
> I think on these boards we just don't see both sides. We hear one side and feel very sorry for the person. The few times I have read both sides I have found it enlightening.
> 
> ...


Jld, and SA, 

I don't think than any of you should feel conflicted or anything if you decide to support " the sisterhood" or " the men" on any given issue or if you decide not to, once you are being true to yourself.

Just like I don't think any man should feel pressured or guilty because he takes a strong pro male stance in a debate. he knows exactly what he feels an he's being true to himself.

In the end we are all adults and compromise is what works. 

Of course there are issue like dishonesty and false pride which are huge stumbling blocks to compromise.

Sometimes we think that because something posted here makes us feel bad , then it must be wrong. Right and wrong in any issue isn't always determined by how we feel about it, and sometimes it is relative.
Knowing how to differentiate , brings understanding.

What is important is that you think for yourself and not support stupidity.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> *I have a hard time with threads criticizing women*, because I think women are vulnerable in life, not only because they are physically weaker than men, but because of their childbearing capabilities. My husband sees things this way, too, and so it has affected our vision of marriage. He doesn't think twice about taking responsibility for the marriage. To him, that is completely normal.


jld...I think you have said that you've been on other forums. Would you say this one is different in this way? I have never been on a forum where there are routinely threads that criticize women (or men) and that's why this place surprises me in that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> jld...I think you have said that you've been on other forums. Would you say this one is different in this way? I have never been on a forum where there are routinely threads that criticize women (or men) and that's why this place surprises me in that way.


Before about six months ago, I had only been on education and health boards. I stumbled onto "relationship" boards last Sept. 30th.

The first board I was on I only lasted a few minutes, because it was so hateful of women. I was truly scared. Then I clicked on a link to "NMMNG forum." I was stunned there, too, as I had no idea all the problems people were having in their marriages. And I had never heard of "Nice Guy" syndrome.

The men were blaming women. And the other men were so strict with them about how women should be treated, all kinds of talk about putting limits on her and not tolerating bad behavior and, the killer for me, telling them to leave the room when she would get angry. 

Neither dh nor I could believe that. How can you ever have a good marriage if you abandon your wife at her weakest emotional point?

But I am a mother of 4 sons, too. I care about males, too. I am shocked by how selfish and even bullying some women can be. How about listening? How about seeking to understand? 

We have to try to understand one another and try to work out solutions everyone can live with. I really don't know another way.

I always think of men as having the power and women as trying to avoid being completely taken advantage of, because that is how I grew up. But it is not always like that, I guess.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> *We have to try to understand one another and try to work out solutions everyone can live with. I really don't know another way*.


And THAT^^^, is what makes a marriage or any relationship WORK.

You are correct,

There is no other way.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I can understand NMMNG (and I have visited there, too) because it is all men...and many of them have been jilted. I think a group of all women, many of whom have been jilted by men, are going to get pretty hateful, too.

But since NMMNG doesn't even allow women members, I don't consider it a relationship board like this one.

The other boards like this one - that have a good mix of male/female and different sections for different marriage issues - don't have this type of gender wars going on...so that's what I have been shocked about. They don't even bring up the word feminism, as it appears to be a non-issue.

There are many good things about TAM I don't see elsewhere as well. Just the gender wars that seem odd to me.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> It's funny, you and I see so many things the same way, SA, but I don't worry about my boys at all. I don't think I even need to worry about my daughter. They all have very good boundaries, at least the older ones. The younger ones are still pretty small.


 IF my boys had my temperament ...I'd be less worried about them....they wouldn't put up with not being treated right, they'd say F that !.....but sad to say...they are pretty sweet... more geared like their dad ....that didn't do him any favors in his youth.... 3rd son just got dumped again last week.....makes no sense to me, this girl was NUTS about him a month ago, wrote this beautiful thing on FB, greatest guy she ever met, changed her life..he was there for her...bla bla bla... they got along so well.. I think she was a little TOO WILD for him though..(Her Mother races motorcycles -biker woman)... so it's ok....he's fine, getting used to being dumped by women ... he took the 1st one REALLY REALLY HARD though.. this one not so much..

The character of the woman is paramount to me -for my sons.... I care a great great deal.... I don't want to see them sexless, they will curse the day they were born....what torment on a man....or being cheated on cause she misses some Bad boy excitement of her youth..or some old flame she never got over... happens way too often today..or a lazy housekeeper who whines she can't get anything done -even if he is the sole breadwinner... I want to pull my hair out when I read those threads on here....

I think we both look through the eyes of our childhood in some ways..your dad was abusive.. the women/ kids cowering in fear... in my experience ... I saw my dad as a good man and my MOM the one who destroyed their marriage ...when my dad married another ..I never seen him angry again...for the last 37 yrs -they are still greatly in love... (I feel my dad was very balanced though)... 

My husband is definitely tipped BETA ... I am happy he married *me*.. someone else could have made his life a living hell I think .. if she was lazy and didn't like sex... he's the type that would have stayed for his children..very honorable like that... 

I kinda seen his Dad in this light too.. just didn't seem his Mom & him were close like that.. I know he had his girly tapes...she was a hoarder, he did everything for her, she never worked..filled his darn garage to the damn ceiling with junk...not to mention every room of the house, then complained, wanted him to buy her another house even!... I think he did step out on her at one point.. but honest to God.... If I was his Dad I would have tied her up in a room, and got 5 dumpsters and got that darn house cleaned or divorced her ...seriously..she took advantage. Oh she was a nice Lady... good Mom..but it seemed to end there... I felt bad *for HIM.*..

I love GOOD guys but I HATE HATE HATE to see them taken advantage of...I like to see them grow some balls..and bring back the balance...



> I have a hard time with threads criticizing women, because I think women are vulnerable in life, not only because they are physically weaker than men, but because of their childbearing capabilities. My husband sees things this way, too, and so it has affected our vision of marriage. He doesn't think twice about taking responsibility for the marriage. To him, that is completely normal.


 My H feels this way too.... but I don't see all women this innocent....I have a friend who cheated on her husband, another who withholds sex....just because she doesn't feel like it... He is a good christian man, he stays for the kids.. I've known her since 9th grade...I feel she was pretty blessed to snag this one... but the balance all went out the window.. I see her taking advantage of him... I don't talk to her anymore. I wanted to throw "No More Mr Nice Guy " at him..he needed it.



> *Jld said*: I always think of men as having the power and women as trying to avoid being completely taken advantage of, because that is how I grew up. But it is not always like that, I guess.


 It's good to step outside of our experiences and ...yeah.. see that it can go both ways... I have GF's too with husbands that I feel sooo bad for them...they deserve so much better.. they feel trapped..one has cheated, emotionally abused..she is married to a COP... not sure where to turn...she cries out to her friends for support....so don't misunderstand me.. I greatly feel for them & see their H's as BAD MEN.. in need of a wake up call... divorced. 

Another throws herself into Church activities cause her husband is a pure Ogre... when I'd visit, he wouldn't even LOOK at her when she talks.. RUDE... she won't leave because she fears he may take the girls...he hasn't cheated, he just treats her like she is LESSOR...male chauvinistic ... no respect type thing.... so there are many UGLY UGLY situations out there..


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Me too. Also surprised by the constant, very traditional gender stereotyping.
> 
> I thought all that was ancient history.


Not as long as men and women exist.


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## inman (Apr 17, 2014)

All things being equal I will admittedly lean towards defending a male. That is a flaw on my part. I will say though that this flaw has come from personal experience that reiterates itself pretty frequently.


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## Bridge (Dec 27, 2013)

Yes and no.  I think that's what most of us would say.

For starters there's no way I'd defend someone who I perceived as in the wrong. I'd never jump to a woman's defense if she was being stupid, just because our genitals match. That makes no sense.

Second, the internet and real life share completely different rules. 

On the internet I'm as likely to talk and offer friendly advice and help to a man as I am a woman.

In real life... I offer support almost exclusively to my girlfriends. I'm only going to assist a guy if he's family or my partner. Otherwise it just feels weird for me. So say a couple we know breaks up... I'm going to hold up the woman. I'll be her support, ear, and confident. I would NEVER do that for a guy.

In summary: internet, gender hardly matters. IRL, if I'm going to be defending anyone, it's going to be a woman (my man doesn't need me fighting his battles for him).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
The issue of the man leaving the room seems to cause you intense distress. 

I believe it is healthy to temporarily suspend communication when your partner behaves in an emotionally toxic manner towards you. 

Some men get physically aggressive when they lose their tempers. And some women get emotionally aggressive/abusive. 

Taking gender out of it entirely: Adults are responsible for regulating their behavior. When they choose not to do so, they may find themselves temporarily isolated. 

It is a very effective way to enforce a boundary. 




jld said:


> Before about six months ago, I had only been on education and health boards. I stumbled onto "relationship" boards last Sept. 30th.
> 
> The first board I was on I only lasted a few minutes, because it was so hateful of women. I was truly scared. Then I clicked on a link to "NMMNG forum." I was stunned there, too, as I had no idea all the problems people were having in their marriages. And I had never heard of "Nice Guy" syndrome.
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, dh could not believe it either when I showed him a post advising that. We both think abandoning a woman when she is so vulnerable is akin to locking a child in a dark cellar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Jld, I have to mention that not all of us who are female consider ourselves vulnerable and fragile and in need of protection. I was considerable stronger emotionally than my ex-husband. I am definitely not a hot-house flower and I think there are many women like me out there.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
If you are both happy with the way your marriage works, that is all that matters. 

My view of this is pretty simple:
- It's emotionally manipulative to equate your spouse leaving the room with someone locking you in a dark cellar. 
- It feels profoundly wrong to me to have someone describe my enforcement of boundaries as an act of aggression towards them.

The main difference between adults and children has to do with the acceptance of cause and effect. 

M2 would describe this as:
If I am hateful towards MEM he typically gives me one warning. If I choose to continue to behave like a child throwing a tantrum, he leaves the room. 


QUOTE=jld;8273273]MEM, dh could not believe it either when I showed him a post advising that. We both think abandoning a woman when she is so vulnerable is akin to locking a child in a dark cellar.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I find I relate to more women's problems (whether they are being posted by them or their husbands) So often when I read a post about how a women reacted/acts from something her husband did and a lot of posters are saying "She's a crazy b*tch" I'm thinking "that thing he did would have upset me too" Maybe that means I'm also a crazy b*tch  

I have found posts too where I relate to the men, just more often with women because I've been in their shoes more. I have defended their side because I understand/agree with how they feel, not because they have a vagina. If I didn't agree I wouldn't say I did. 

This group is very different from any I have been on before but I have mostly spent time on forums that are mostly women (pregnancy, motherhood, etc) and no, none of them were men bashing. It's shocking to read some of the posts sometimes. I think a lot of situations posted would have much different answers if written in a different place. I know I've seen conflicting advice to similar situations in different places. It's no wonder marriage can be so tricky.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> My view of this is pretty simple:
> - It's emotionally manipulative to equate your spouse leaving the room with someone locking you in a dark cellar.



Some people want their spouse to be there to get the full blast of their emotional response. If the spouse leaves the room the emotions have nowhere to go. 

I'm not talking BPD style abandonment fear but the principle is the same. 

At the end one spouse is playing angry birds in the laundry room and the other has to deal with a bunch of not so nice emotions.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> Not really. Defend against what? There are some posters here that believe there is a war against men. I don't believe this. I honestly think its all in their heads.
> 
> Now, I am guilty of not apologizing for acting and thinking like a man. Which some find offensive, but I can live with that.


You may believe there is no war against men, but the facts say otherwise.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
I have total confidence that an adult is able to express their emotions in a non hateful way. This may require some effort and discipline, but that goes with the territory if you want to maintain a strong bond. 

IIRC you made an effort to persuade J2 not to erupt in screaming fury at you. You did that by screaming back, I do that by depriving M2 of my company. 




john117 said:


> Some people want their spouse to be there to get the full blast of their emotional response. If the spouse leaves the room the emotions have nowhere to go.
> 
> I'm not talking BPD style abandonment fear but the principle is the same.
> 
> At the end one spouse is playing angry birds in the laundry room and the other has to deal with a bunch of not so nice emotions.


----------



## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

jld said:


> MEM, dh could not believe it either when I showed him a post advising that. We both think abandoning a woman when she is so vulnerable is akin to locking a child in a dark cellar.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This shows the most deep disrespect of women and their capabilities. It makes me furious frankly. It's just more misogyny, very cleverly disguised.

I prefer my husband respect me enough to know and believe I am capable of mature, reasonable, considerate behaviour, even when I'm angry.

I'm not a child. I take care of children.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Oh and I'm not at all surprised by the hatred, fear and resentment I see displayed by men towards women on this or any other board. Lots of men hate, fear and resent women.

Fortunately I was not fathered by one, nor did I marry one. Therefore I can see that sh*t for what it is.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> I have total confidence that an adult is able to express their emotions in a non hateful way. This may require some effort and discipline, but that goes with the territory if you want to maintain a strong bond.
> .



Your faith in humanity is heartwarming, but believe me, even normal people often have difficulty regulating emotions. 

Some cultures are better than others, but as you said, it requires effort; yet not everyone makes this effort.

The issue is not so much external behavior due to unregulated emotions - walking out, screaming, etc) but how those unregulated emotions impact further decision making and future behavior.

I don't believe walking out is the answer. Didn't work when my kids were toddlers either.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Oh and I'm. It at all surprised by the hatred, fear and resentment I see displayed by men towards women on this or any other board. Lots of men hate, fear and resent women.
> 
> Fortunately I was not fathered by one, nor did I marry one. Therefore I can see that sh*t for what it is.



Spend some time in the USA and you'll see it first hand. In the more conservative parts of the country we're not far off from Frigidistan in terms of gender relations. 

The culture gives out waaaaay too many wrong vibes to kids growing up.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Are you equating: the proper response to a toddler and the proper response to a fully mature adult? 




john117 said:


> Your faith in humanity is heartwarming, but believe me, even normal people often have difficulty regulating emotions.
> 
> Some cultures are better than others, but as you said, it requires effort; yet not everyone makes this effort.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Lyris said:


> This shows the most deep disrespect of women and their capabilities. It makes me furious frankly. It's just more misogyny, very cleverly disguised.
> 
> I prefer my husband respect me enough to know and believe I am capable of mature, reasonable, considerate behaviour, even when I'm angry.
> 
> I'm not a child. I take care of children.


I have no idea how your personal interpretation of men on this board has to do with what Jld and M were saying.

Could you clarify which point you were addressing?


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> Spend some time in the USA and you'll see it first hand. In the more conservative parts of the country we're not far off from Frigidistan in terms of gender relations.
> 
> The culture gives out waaaaay too many wrong vibes to kids growing up.


So damn true!


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Openminded said:


> Nope. I am a female but a very logical, unemotional one. If I had to identify with a group, it would likely be males. I rarely understand female behavior any more than they do.


:lol::lol::rofl:
You've managed to post one of the most impressive examples of a paradox that I've read in a long time. Was it by design or accident? 

It's priceless.

A paradox,
A most ingenious paradox!
We've quips and quibbles heard in flocks,
But none to beat this paradox!

The Pirates of Penzance; Gilbert and Sullivan


----------



## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So damn true!


If you are referring to the culture of misandry taught to young children, I wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

*Re: Do you find yourself defending your gender*



wilderness said:


> If you are referring to the culture of misandry taught to young children, I wholeheartedly agree.


Wilderness, honey, sweetheart, lovey... You are having a crisis right now so I really really want to avoid duking it out with you. And I know you've had the Micky taken out of you on your own thread the title of which rather suits you, so it's understandable how you might be looking for a fight. As such, I'm just going to suggest you get back to prayer and fasting and searching for a good therapist.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

AP -- this is off topic but I have to tell you how much I enjoy the picture of your "girly man" dog. Every time I need a smile I go to Social and look at it.


----------



## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Do you find yourself defending your gender*



Anon Pink said:


> Wilderness, honey, sweetheart, lovey... You are having a crisis right now so I really really want to avoid duking it out with you. And I know you've had the Micky taken out of you on your own thread the title of which rather suits you, so it's understandable how you might be looking for a fight. As such, I'm just going to suggest you get back to prayer and fasting and searching for a good therapist.


Lovechop -

If getting along with you makes me wrong, then I don't wanna be right.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> AP -- this is off topic but I have to tell you how much I enjoy the picture of your "girly man" dog. Every time I need a smile I go to Social and look at it.



Could someone please post a link?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

John, it's on page 302 of the New Post a Pic thread in Social. It's priceless.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> I have no idea how your personal interpretation of men on this board has to do with what Jld and M were saying.
> 
> Could you clarify which point you were addressing?


I quoted the point I was addressing. I would have though that made it clear.

Equating a grown woman being held accountable for her poor behaviour to locking a dependent child in a cellar is infantilising and patronising. It is a way of viewing women as less evolved than men, as less able or reasonable than men, and therefore needing greater allowance. 

Jld has written similar things often on this board. I don't like letting attitudes like those go unchallenged.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2014)

john117 said:


> Spend some time in the USA and you'll see it first hand. In the more conservative parts of the country we're not far off from Frigidistan in terms of gender relations.
> 
> The culture gives out waaaaay too many wrong vibes to kids growing up.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

:lol:

That's awesome!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There was an incident we discussed in counseling that contributed to our MC thinking M2 has some BPD traits.

I calmly told M2: I need a bit of time by myself, so I am going to put on my ipod and do some Yardwork outside. 

In therapy M2 described this as: MEM telling her that she wasn't allowed outside.....

ROTFL.... I basically wanted a 20 foot radius and was in the back yard. M2 had the front yard and the entire rest of the world. 




Lyris said:


> I quoted the point I was addressing. I would have though that made it clear.
> 
> Equating a grown woman being held accountable for her poor behaviour to locking a dependent child in a cellar is infantilising and patronising. It is a way of viewing women as less evolved than men, as less able or reasonable than men, and therefore needing greater allowance.
> 
> Jld has written similar things often on this board. I don't like letting attitudes like those go unchallenged.


----------



## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Lyris said:


> I quoted the point I was addressing. I would have though that made it clear.
> 
> Equating a grown woman being held accountable for her poor behaviour to locking a dependent child in a cellar is infantilising and patronising. It is a way of viewing women as less evolved than men, as less able or reasonable than men, and therefore needing greater allowance.
> 
> Jld has written similar things often on this board. I don't like letting attitudes like those go unchallenged.


:iagree:

I don't buy the whole "women should be allowed to throw tantrums and men should be their rock at those times" philosophy either. We're talking adults here fgs. 

I dont see anybody defending men who are emotionnally or physically abusive. And rightly so. Same goes for women. 

I don't see what being physically less strong or child baring capabilities have to do with anything either.

Anyway, maybe we're talking semantics here. Jld may mean by getting angry disagreeing on something, maybe even raising her voice... while others like me think of really toxic tantrums, faul language and character assassinations... if you ever were the target of attacks of that variety, maybe you would agree that, given all alternatives, leaving the room and letting her stew in her own toxic waste until she's ready to talk like an adult again, is actually a pretty mature response.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> That's awesome!



That's my reaction every time I return to the conservative Midwest too...


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: Do you find yourself defending your gender?*



Faithful Wife said:


> There's a lot of gender bickering on this forum, more so than any other forum I've ever visited.


And it's all your fault.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Leaving the room when dealing with a toxic person only helps ferment the stew even more without accomplishing the desired long term effect. If one thinks they accomplish anything long term they might want to reconsider. 

Even with non toxic people walking away may not always be desirable even if it is a reasonable short term strategy. At some point it becomes the norm and that's not desirable either.

When there's conflict in the relationship one can take the path of least resistance and walk away - or confront and hopefully resolve the issue. Adults - toxic and non - have long memories and tend to prefer things that worked or "worked" in the past. 

Think of it this way - would you walk away from a work related argument with your colleagues? It's not the same context, but it does not make one look good long term. I enjoy arguing with a toxic person as much as the next guy but arguing is a heck of an opportunity to make real progress in the relationship by resolving issues. Also it's a great opportunity to look into others' personas when they're at their most raw.

If people could understand the impact of pent up emotions on latent decision making they perhaps would rethink this...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

john117 said:


> If people could understand the impact of pent up emotions on latent decision making they perhaps would rethink this...


:iagree:

Exactly.

But everyone is different and one size doesn't fit all.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> But everyone is different and one size doesn't fit all.



The decision making processes are largely the same. What varies is the inputs to the mental models and their relative weights.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> My view of this is pretty simple:
> - It's emotionally manipulative to equate your spouse leaving the room with someone locking you in a dark cellar.
> - It feels profoundly wrong to me to have someone describe my enforcement of boundaries as an act of aggression towards them.


Well, we probably learn more on these boards when we disagree than when we agree. And when people become aggressive, I expect there is a lot more going on under the surface that we can even imagine.

MEM, are you a deep believer of Right. V. Wrong in relationships? Blaming someone when there is a conflict? 

I don't think dh sees things this way. I think he is more looking at What Is Needed At This Time. And usually what is needed is more understanding of why I am upset.

He could just say, This is ridiculous. I don't have to put up with this. Get control of your emotions and then we will talk. And he would have the support of 90% of men, and a number of women. It is, apparently, the socially accepted practice.

But he challenges himself, MEM. He really wants to know what is wrong, what is going on with me, why I am upset. Why is his wife, usually so sweet, gentle, caring, and supportive, absolutely spitting nails at him? 

Something has gone wrong, and her previous attempts to tell him calmly have not worked. So now she is emotional, and what could have been resolved by listening right away, and acting, is going to take more work.

Sometimes it does take a while to get to a mutually acceptable resolution, but we always get there. We have to, MEM. We both want _true peace_ in the relationship. We aren't going to get there with trying to control each other with rules and techniques, however socially accepted and popular they may be.

We are only going to get there with _truly seeking to understand one another, and finding a solution that we both can live with._ And this is an ongoing process, an evolving adaptation. It is not figured out one time, and then no conflict ever again. Not in our marriage, anyway. It is as dynamic as both of us are. It is ever growing, ever changing, ever evolving.

I do always apologize after an outburst. But dh does not lord that over me. I am certainly never told to apologize. It comes from my heart.

He commented, after one of the first times this issue came up on the board, (because I am always truly shocked when I hear this position being advocated, this idea that you should, as a matter of common knowledge and accepted practice, leave the room when your woman is angry, whether you can handle it or not) that When there is a tantrum, _someone_ is not listening.

He could blame me, MEM. He could take that route. But he doesn't. He is not trying to _win_ something. His ego does not need that.

He wants a harmonious, a _truly harmonious_, marriage. And that is not going to come by blaming and accusing and declaring one person morally superior. It comes by being humble and knowing that you can look past the screaming or whatever to see into the person's heart. _That_ is how you figure out the problem and how best, with the help of both of you, to resolve it.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

That's why I think different people would have different reactions.

What works would depend on how things are perceived and processed.

Personality traits , stress factors , etc.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Deejo said:


> And it's all your fault.


You know, I was gonna say that, like, "did this all start when I showed up?" :scratchhead:

And I was gonna throw a big Gender F*ck Festival with balloons and costumes...it was going to be SO MUCH FUN...but ya'll had to ruin it with all the boy-girl bickering, so no festival for you!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I find it helpful to present the rules of engagement ahead of time and also frame the problem in terms of us vs them versus me vs her... 

A bit of innocent manipulation and tactical misinformation is always helpful too  sometimes being radically transparent hurts more than it helps.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> I find it helpful to present the rules of engagement ahead of time and also frame the problem in terms of us vs them versus me vs her...
> 
> I think we could improve here. Some organization and focusing could help us. Always something to work on. And I think it could be fun!
> 
> ...


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

john117 said:


> I find it helpful to present the rules of engagement ahead of time and also frame the problem in terms of us vs them versus me vs her...


Lol,
I usually say this to my wife:

" _It's you and me against the world baby._."


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> MEM, dh could not believe it either when I showed him a post advising that. We both think abandoning a woman when she is so vulnerable is akin to locking a child in a dark cellar.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


IMO if anyone, male or female, is ever THAT vulnerable, they should seek mental health care. I would hate to think my husband looked upon me as so frail, he could not even take a time out simply because I am female!


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

jld - (regarding "abandoning her when at most vulnerable)

While I agree with you 100% in most relationships, particularly healthy relationships, I believe under certain dynamics or the context of the relationship there are times this can be part of an effective tactic to "reset" the situation.

For example you saw this in a NMMNG forum. These are men who have not been nearly masculine enough in their relationships, and are trying to re-establish their masculine role. They have to set a new stage with their wives. Likely she has little respect for him due to his past actions and behaviors, including being a doormat for her and/or he reacts emotionally to her with his anger, arguing, whining, etc. In other words, he is not able to handle her the way she needs him to like a man, so she is ALREADY alone and abandoned, emotionally!

So say the man walks into the kitchen where his wife is, and she begins to unload on him, including disrespecting him. Remember, due to their history, she does not have much respect for him and does not feel safe/secure with him emotionally. He is trying to change himself and the dynamics of the relationship. So he stands his ground initially, and calmly but firmly informs her that he will not tolerate her disrespecting him, and if she wishes to speak with him, she needs to speak to him as she would have him speak to her. Instead, she unloads even more on him. Again he CALMLY looks her in the eyes and says firmly "when you are ready to speak to me respectfully, I will listen to you". Then he casually walks away.

He is very likely feeling very emotional himself, as he has not learned to control himself yet and behave as a man, and is at risk of doing his usual - trying to placate her out of his own fear of her, or getting angry and resentful and wanting to lash out and argue. He also has no foot to stand on to lead her, handle her and calm her down, because of her lack of respect or emotional security/trust of him. 

So he physically removes himself from the situation. He calmly walks away and behaves entirely unaffected, and goes to find something constructive and/or positive and pleasant to do for himself. This gives him the chance to get himself under control in a positive way, and also signals to his wife that he no longer will react to her in the unmanly ways he used to. He will speak to her directly and calmly, will listen to her lovingly, but will give no energy to disrespect. If she does eventually go to him respectfully, he gives it back fully to her, listening sincerely and lovingly guiding her to a positive place. If she doesn't, he may "ping" her after some time to give her another chance to express herself in a more respectful fashion, so that he doesn't leave her hanging and neglected.

It's my belief in that circumstance, it would only need to happen a couple of times before that dynamic began to change. Wife would understand that so long as she is respectful to him, he will be there for her the way she needs him to be, the way he should be. Otherwise, she will get zero energy from him, and see him giving positive energy elsewhere or to others instead (the kids for example), unaffected by her. 

Of course this requires the man is truly behaving in a masculine fashion all the way around, this is but one particular strategy to effectively change the dynamics of their relationship. Once he has proven himself capable, THEN she can trust him, feel safe with him, know that he will handle her and lead her to a better place. Then he need NEVER walk away from her, nor would he want to. He would be man enough to handle her in any situation, understand his true role, and that it is a signal that she NEEDS his emotional strength and energy, his assistance in some form, and he would lovingly give that to her, bringing her to a safe, good place with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> IMO if anyone, male or female, is ever THAT vulnerable, they should seek mental health care. I would hate to think my husband looked upon me as so frail, he could not even take a time out simply because I am female!


Again depends upon the context. But in general, if a woman is feeling highly emotional, it's obvious that there is a need not being met at the moment. Something causing anxiety, anger, fear, stress, etc. Why would her man take a "time out" during that, rather than getting a handle on the situation and being there for her? Because he's not man enough to take it? He's too emotional and gets upset himself? He can't be there for her, lead her out of a negative state? That sounds like a boy, not a man. Less to do with frailty and more to do with how a MAN properly leads a relationship and meets her needs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Justtryin, what a thorough, patient explanation! Thank you. 

Is this basically just something where the man does not have much power? Or perceives himself as not having much power?

I think that may be my missing link in understanding this. 

My man has lots of power, and we both know it. I think that is why we were both so absolutely stunned to hear that advice. 

For us, if anything, his not responding to her would be an imbalance in an already unbalanced relationship. It would feel uncaring and neglectful. Cold.

And really, this is the beauty in conversing, actually trying to understand, and not making knee-jerk reactions.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Again depends upon the context. But in general, if a woman is feeling highly emotional, it's obvious that there is a need not being met at the moment. Something causing anxiety, anger, fear, stress, etc. Why would her man take a "time out" during that, rather than getting a handle on the situation and being there for her? *Because he's not man enough to take it?* He's too emotional and gets upset himself? He can't be there for her, lead her out of a negative state? *That sounds like a boy, not a man. *Less to do with frailty and more to do with how a MAN properly leads a relationship and meets her needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

This is so true, justtryin, but it seems so hard for some men to hear this. And yet if they could listen, and allow themselves to become truly secure men, they would find their marriages turned around.

I just can't tell you the women who have told me they wish their husbands could handle their anger.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

justtryin said:


> Again depends upon the context. But in general, if a woman is feeling highly emotional, it's obvious that there is a need not being met at the moment. Something causing anxiety, anger, fear, stress, etc. Why would her man take a "time out" during that, rather than getting a handle on the situation and being there for her?


If her behavior has become bad, then that is a significant problem. Being female does not excuse one from learning self control, emotional control and behavioral control. If one has reached adulthood not having achieved that control, they should seek to fix that, not require their partner be an enabler of their bad behavior.



> Because he's not man enough to take it? He's too emotional and gets upset himself? He can't be there for her, lead her out of a negative state? That sounds like a boy, not a man. Less to do with frailty and more to do with how a MAN properly leads a relationship and meets her needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Because bad behavior is unhealthy for a relationship.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Somehow I don't think that human beings are that simple,and relationships are even more complex.

We cannot and shouldn't attempt to put all our responses to different situations in a relationship in a " _good behavior_" or " _bad behavior _" box or category.
There is an entire spectrum of responses to various stimuli in relationships that is neither good nor bad, or can be good or bad depending on the context and the dynamics of that relationship.

Then sometimes there are triggers.

I believe it's better to understand why before we categorize or set boundaries.

And it applies for both genders.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Somehow I don't think that human beings and relationships are that simple.
> 
> We cannot and shouldn't attempt to put all our responses to different situations in a relationship is a " good behavior" or " bad behavior " box or category.


No. But I can give an idea of what I think is mentally healthy behavior for an individual. A spouse may choose to accept what I consider unhealthy behavior. EVEN IF a partner will accept unhealthy behavior, I still think things would be better for both parties for each to learn to behave in a mature fashion. IMO pitching a fit, is not a healthy, mature, adult behavior. Therefore, not accepting it is better for everyone than accepting it. YMMV.

But WORSE by far is the notion that manly men MUST take immature behavior of women and SOOTH it because they are too fragile to learn to behave properly.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JLD,
There is a behavioral template which your post below reflects. 

You emphasize listening, active listening as much as anyone on here. 

And yet you consistently misrepresent the viewpoint that you argue against. 

I bolded your statement below. But the key phrase you like to use is: *Leave the room when your woman is angry.*

I've am not seeing that advocated. Instead what is advocated is:

If your *partners expression of their emotions becomes toxic*, you aren't obligated to tolerate it. 

You are plenty smart enough to distinguish between those statements if you actually wish to do so. That said, you and I share a fondness for examples: So here's an example of what I mean. 

Nashville 2x19 Scarlett was Abused by her Mother Scene - YouTube

As for the rest of your comments below, there's enough truth to them that they get the overall nod for content. 

As far as it goes, I prefer harmony to blaming/winning. Far as that stuff goes you might consider a sideways glance in the mirror since you've resorted to a fair bit of verbal distortion and emotional manipulation below in an attempt to make your case. 



jld said:


> Well, we probably learn more on these boards when we disagree than when we agree. And when people become aggressive, I expect there is a lot more going on under the surface that we can even imagine.
> 
> MEM, are you a deep believer of Right. V. Wrong in relationships? Blaming someone when there is a conflict?
> 
> ...


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> But WORSE by far is the notion that manly men MUST take immature behavior of women and SOOTH it because they are too fragile to learn to behave properly.


Seeking to understand is not the same as accepting ,and or 
" soothing away."

And even if it is bad behaviour, understand the _why_ is the first step in fixing the problem.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Seeking to understand is not the same as accepting ,and or
> " soothing away."
> 
> And even if it is bad behaviour, understand the _why_ is the first step in fixing the problem.


Seeking to understand is, of course, extremely important. Considering temporarily removing yourself from a toxic situation as akin to locking a child in a dark basement? Not so much.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why so defensive, MEM?

And please point out the verbal distortion and emotional manipulation.

And did you read justtryin's post?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The moment the partner turns toxic ought to be exploited to its finest - in a good way as a learning moment or as a devious way to get insight. 

Walking away throws away an awesome long term prospect for gain over short term prospect for peace.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> If her behavior has become bad, then that is a significant problem. Being female does not excuse one from learning self control, emotional control and behavioral control. If one has reached adulthood not having achieved that control, they should seek to fix that, not require their partner be an enabler of their bad behavior.


A lot of times it comes _after _self control and talking about it calmly and getting no where. I don't think this is a woman thing, a lot of people just snap after feeling like they aren't being heard and respected over and over again. If I get that mad it's for a reason, not a behavior issue, not a mental issue, not a woman issue. It's an I'm f-ing fed up and can't take it anymore issue. I'm not saying enable the behavior, I'm saying sometimes you should look at it as we both need to fix this instead of they need to fix that. 

Just blaming it on immaturity and lack of control and not seeing their part in it won't get them anywhere. If it crosses the line to abusive then that changes things but "throwing a fit" doesn't necessarily mean that person is wrong.

I've also seen various opinions on what is a fit and what isn't. It's all subjective and will be different for everyone.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Why so defensive, MEM?
> 
> And please point out the verbal distortion and emotional manipulation.
> 
> And did you read justtryin's post?


I did. Neither of you have addressed the issue of toxic behavior that I have seen. The silence on this matter makes it seem as though you think that being female is enough to exempt one from learning self control and mature behavior. And having a penis makes it his responsibility to tolerate it. I can say I strongly disagree that this is a healthy way to go through life.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> A lot of times it comes _after _self control and talking about it calmly and getting no where. I don't think this is a woman thing, a lot of people just snap after feeling like they aren't being heard and respected over and over again. If I get that mad it's for a reason, not a behavior issue, not a mental issue, not a woman issue.


Sure. My replies have been in response to one poster's assertion that leaving an "emotional vulnerable woman" is akin to locking a small child in a dark basement. Anger MUST be dealt with. The reason for the anger MUST be dealt with. But not while a supposedly grown person is throwing a temper tantrum.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Just blaming it on immaturity and lack of control and not seeing their part in it won't get them anywhere. If it crosses the line to abusive then that changes things but "throwing a fit" doesn't necessarily mean that person is wrong.
> 
> I've also seen various opinions on what is a fit and what isn't. It's all subjective and will be different for everyone.


:iagree:
My point exactly..

CONTEXT is everything.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sure. My replies have been in response to one poster's assertion that leaving an "emotional vulnerable woman" is akin to locking a small child in a dark basement. Anger MUST be dealt with. The reason for the anger MUST be dealt with. But not while a supposedly grown person is throwing a temper tantrum.


I agree with you that it's a valid choice to walk away from a temper tantrum. I guess it just depends on what kind of outburst we are talking about. Just acting upset and raised voice? Or acting like this woman Wife's Temper Tantrum At Husband - YouTube Throwing things? Being abusive? I'd have different feelings about each one.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> The moment the partner turns toxic ought to be exploited to its finest - in a good way as a learning moment or as a devious way to get insight.
> 
> Walking away throws away an awesome long term prospect for gain over short term prospect for peace.


Please tell me what that would look like? Also would this same behavior be appropriate if the man is the one who is behaving badly?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Please tell me what that would look like? Also would this same behavior be appropriate if the man is the one who is behaving badly?


With someone going to jail probably.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My husband and I both behave badly equally. We've both acted like total idiots. I guess that is why we both can move on and forgive after the other one has done it, because we can always see the same dumbass crap in our own behavior.

We have recently learned how to stop doing this. Hooray!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM, I just looked at that youtube clip. So sad. They could have put the grandmother on, too, I am sure.

I see two very hurting women on there, MEM. Two people with unmet needs. Two people in need of healing.

I can understand that a man who is not strong enough to handle a woman's anger needs to leave the room. But as justtryin tried to explain, it is just a stop gap measure until he is stronger in himself and can really look past her behavior into her heart.

He is not going to get there, MEM, if he thinks the stop gap measure was meant to be permanent. And that is my concern with this advice, that some people take it as a permanent way of dealing with a wife's anger. It will not solve the problem, not in any meaningful way.

He needs to become truly secure. Then he will be able to react to her with compassion and understanding. She will feel his strength and feel secure. And if they can get effective communication going, and an action plan, things should get much better. Maybe not perfect, but better.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> If her behavior has become bad, then that is a significant problem. Being female does not excuse one from learning self control, emotional control and behavioral control. If one has reached adulthood not having achieved that control, they should seek to fix that, not require their partner be an enabler of their bad behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> Because bad behavior is unhealthy for a relationship.


As I said, depends upon the context. And what constitutes "bad behavior". 

But sure, "bad behavior" is not desirable in any relationship. However as a man, I don't fear bad behavior from my wife. I know how to handle it and I know how to eliminate it. To expect anyone to have zero bad behavior ever is unrealistic. It's going to happen time to time. A leader knows how to deal with it in a productive and healthy way. 

I don't see where walking away/ignoring it could possibly be productive and healthy, other than the circumstance I described above, which involves an already unhealthy relationship.

Let me ask you - if you were engaged in "bad behavior" as you say, what if instead of walking away, your husband did or said something that caused you to think about what you were doing, and suddenly do a 180 and be DRAWN to him, your negative feelings turning around into positive, good feelings, a safe, secure warmth over your heart, re-energizing you? 

Would that be preferable to him walking away so you could stand there alone wondering what happened, you must have pissed him off, now you need to either feel justified and get more angry or you need to be apologetic, either way, feeling a bit drained? Which scenario would you prefer, which sounds healthier?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Sure. My replies have been in response to one poster's assertion that leaving an "emotional vulnerable woman" is akin to locking a small child in a dark basement. Anger MUST be dealt with. The reason for the anger MUST be dealt with. But not while a supposedly grown person is throwing a temper tantrum.


So my wife and I had lunch earlier today.
I usually cook about half of the times but today she wanted to cook.
I love fish, and asked her to prepare the swordfish in a special way I like. Which she attempted to do but didn't quite come out to her liking.

I thought it tasted really nice and said so, but she was upset, and starts fussing.
Then, a bit agitated, she suggest to me that I might have been better off , had I married a woman who could match my culinary skills.
I laughed , hugged her , kissed her forehead and told her absolutely not, I love you for much more than your culinary skills.

I could have handled this differently.
I could have thought of how many times I've been through stuff like this with her and she keeps bringing it up.
Or , I could have thought that she was projecting , which is an immature way to handle negative emotions.

But instead , I chose to reassure her , albeit for the umpteenth time , that I love both her, and her cooking.

Problem solved.

No, the problem was not her cooking skills, but today, she was feeling a bit low on self esteem.
She's peri - menopausal, and sometimes her emotions are all over the place.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

justtryin said:


> As I said, depends upon the context. And what constitutes "bad behavior".
> 
> But sure, "bad behavior" is not desirable in any relationship. However as a man, I don't fear bad behavior from my wife. I know how to handle it and I know how to eliminate it. To expect anyone to have zero bad behavior ever is unrealistic. It's going to happen time to time. A leader knows how to deal with it in a productive and healthy way.
> 
> ...


Well I have asked you what that kind of action would look like. What would someone DO? My negative feelings usually have reasons. So just "drawing me to him" (do you mean literally, like I am pissed at him so he hugs me? Good Lord, that would be a mess) would seem rather dismissive.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I did. Neither of you have addressed the issue of toxic behavior that I have seen. The silence on this matter makes it seem as though you think that being female is enough to exempt one from learning self control and mature behavior. And having a penis makes it his responsibility to tolerate it. I can say I strongly disagree that this is a healthy way to go through life.


I'm not understanding the leap from "emotionally vulnerable" to "toxic behavior"...?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> So my wife and I had lunch earlier today.
> I usually cook about half of the times but today she wanted to cook.
> I love fish, and asked her to prepare the swordfish in a special way I like. Which she attempted to do but didn't quite come out to her liking.
> 
> ...


This is not a MAN / WOMAN issue. This is a CM and Mrs CM issue. But regardless, it is hardly like Mrs CM pitched a fit. Hardly what I would call temper tantrum or toxic behavior.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

justtryin said:


> I'm not understanding the leap from "emotionally vulnerable" to "toxic behavior"...?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There are two different issues at hand.

1. Being a grown adult who is so vulnerable that their partner's leaving them is akin to the physical abuse of a child is not a healthy place to be.

2. Merely being female makes #1 actually NOT a mentally unhealthy place to be and makes it the man's responsibility to appease even in instances of tantruming and toxicity.

It is there in the thread.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is not a MAN / WOMAN issue. This is a CM and Mrs CM issue. But regardless, it is hardly like Mrs CM pitched a fit. Hardly what I would call temper tantrum or toxic behavior.


Lol,

So you're thinking that she was projecting her negative feelings on me with a smile?

Nope.
But like I said earlier , the idea is to get behind the perceived action , in order to get behind the _why._

There's a huge gap between theory and practical.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> So you're thinking that she was projecting her negative feelings on me with a smile?


Oh, well if you want to put up with being married to a woman whose self control is no greater than a toddler, that is your choice! Lucky for her she has a man who will do that. Or maybe not. But that is not up to me. I certainly would not choose that partner, male or female.

But I don't think this makes you a "manly man strong enough to take it". If I were talking to my son, I would tell him it makes him something completely else.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Well I have asked you what that kind of action would look like. What would someone DO? My negative feelings usually have reasons. So just "drawing me to him" (do you mean literally, like I am pissed at him so he hugs me? Good Lord, that would be a mess) would seem rather dismissive.


What would someone do depends on myriad variables, including the personalities and dynamics between the two people. That's why it's critical a man is attentive enough and emotionally connected enough to truly know and understand his wife.

I know what my wife responds positively to. I know her needs. I know how to meet her needs. I know what to do in any given situation, I can read her and the situation and know what she needs from me. Then it's simply a matter of responding from a place of deep love and respect. This combination allows her to become calm, to feel my love and positive energy, to lead her to see the positive aspects of what is bothering her and away from the negative aspects, etc. To the point that she will be energetic and smiling by the time we are done, feeling good and feeling loved.

Like I said, I see that as part of my role as her husband, to be that for her, rather than leave her alone to figure it out alone. We got married because we didn't want to be alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just,
Sounds like someone who prefers Daddy to Partner. And I hear the echoes of contempt for the many partners who weren't willing or able to take on the role of Daddy. 

Just recognize that the main reason Daddy is unaffected by your hostility isn't because he is an emotional battleship, but rather because he doesn't take you all that seriously. 



justtryin said:


> Again depends upon the context. But in general, if a woman is feeling highly emotional, it's obvious that there is a need not being met at the moment. Something causing anxiety, anger, fear, stress, etc. Why would her man take a "time out" during that, rather than getting a handle on the situation and being there for her? Because he's not man enough to take it? He's too emotional and gets upset himself? He can't be there for her, lead her out of a negative state? That sounds like a boy, not a man. Less to do with frailty and more to do with how a MAN properly leads a relationship and meets her needs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

justtryin said:


> What would someone do depends on myriad variables, including the personalities and dynamics between the two people. That's why it's critical a man is attentive enough and emotionally connected enough to truly know and understand his wife.


Can you give me just one example of handling a temper tantrum that has worked for you? That is all I am asking.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh, well if you want to put up with being married to a woman whose self control is no greater than a toddler, that is your choice! Lucky for her she has a man who will do that. Or maybe not. But that is not up to me. I certainly would not choose that partner, male or female.
> 
> But I don't think this makes you a "manly man strong enough to take it". If I were talking to my son, I would tell him it makes him something completely else.


Lol.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Just,
> Sounds like someone who prefers Daddy to Partner. And I hear the echoes of contempt for the many partners who weren't willing or able to take on the role of Daddy.
> 
> Just recognize that the main reason Daddy is unaffected by your hostility isn't because he is an emotional battleship, but rather because he doesn't take you all that seriously.


I don't see how taking the time to understand and help my wife feel positive and energized is taking her less seriously than someone who would walk away from her when she is emotionally vulnerable... Seems you have it backwards?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Please tell me what that would look like? Also would this same behavior be appropriate if the man is the one who is behaving badly?



Two separate cases: chronic toxic spouse first (ie my BPD wife):

She starts raging about some BS issue. Ultimately I get blamed for Obamacare, global warming, and the 2007 financial crisis. Walking out achieves little as these are queued up for next time. Solution - respond in the same tone and drawn them out or just drag it out as long as it takes. Eventually the person who's emotionally unbalanced has a tipping point earlier than that of a same person who simply argues for hours without missing a beat because they know better. This technique was quite instrumental in cutting down BPD rages from several a week to a couple a year if that. During the rages keep an eye for recurring patterns of blame and file the info away. There's plenty of gems there for the asking.

Arguing with normal people who turn temporarily toxic is similar. See what they have to say and what bothers th. If they stoop this low then they really feel strongly about issues and walking away does nothing to resolve it. Keep talking tho not quite as loudly as in case 1. More unphased than hurt or angry etc. Remind them if this is how they want to project themselves to the world etc.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> Why so defensive, MEM?
> 
> And please point out the verbal distortion and emotional manipulation.
> 
> And did you read justtryin's post?


THAT was defensive?? :rofl:

Enough with the metacommunication already...

I did read Justtryin's post... liked the long one better.

So what are we dealing with here... women should be allowed to throw tantrums and their men should listen and the ones that don't are weak... hmmm. Really? That simple?

I may be naive but I expect from anybody, not only women, that they at least try to communicate their POV in a respectful manner first. If they don't get their message delivered in this fashionand they feel intitled to throw a tantrum, there are several possibilities why this is so.

Either the wife is BAD COMMUNICATOR.

Or the husband is a TERRIBLE LISTENER in the first place.

Or both.

Take your pick.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Last weekend we visited oldest daughter, she lives about 4 hours away. 

Neither of us had made a hotel reservation in advance, mainly because we'd never had an issue getting a hotel there. 

Due to a bunch of events, the only hotel we could get into was a red roof - normally $90/night but due to being almost sold out it was $270/night. 

Before we even got there M2 mentioned that if the hotel was crappy, that maybe after dinner we would just drive back. She doesn't see well at night so that meant me driving back. Leaving around 10:30 PM, getting in between 2 and 3 AM. 

I said that was fine. We got to the hotel and the room was not ok. It was clean, but the bed only had sheets. No comforter, no blankets. M2 asked if it was ok to bail and I said it was. 

The rest of the night she made a handful of comments that were all along the same line. She was sorry for being picky/high maintenance. Sorry I was going to have to drive home so late at night. I knew she felt bad, and kept reassuring her. 

I have no trouble dealing with sad, angry, anxious, frightened. But that ain't toxic. 

M2 gets toxic is when she wants to get her way, and I'm preventing her. Like when she got angry at our eldest and wanted to terminate our financial support immediately in the middle of a semester. That wasn't about feelings. That was about a specific act of aggression that she wanted me to support. 

And please - don't tell me about validation. Because (in those situations) M2 has a simplified view: The only way you can validate her feelings is to support her desired course of action. 




Caribbean Man said:


> So my wife and I had lunch earlier today.
> I usually cook about half of the times but today she wanted to cook.
> I love fish, and asked her to prepare the swordfish in a special way I like. Which she attempted to do but didn't quite come out to her liking.
> 
> ...


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> *Oh, well if you want to put up with being married to a woman whose self control is no greater than a toddler, that is your choice!* Lucky for her she has a man who will do that. Or maybe not. But that is not up to me. I certainly would not choose that partner, male or female.
> 
> *But I don't think this makes you a "manly man strong enough to take it". *If I were talking to my son, I would tell him it makes him something completely else.


With those two statements you are coming off as an immature, childish adult, who, because CM disagrees with you, is resorting to trying to insult his wife, then him, when you have no other comeback. I guess you think from that one anecdote you know enough about her to classify her that way.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Can you give me just one example of handling a temper tantrum that has worked for you? That is all I am asking.


I could give you dozens. But for one, it would require a great deal of detail describing context, circumstances, how she feels, what her needs are, her personality, what was going on in our lives at the time, etc. etc. Without that level of detail, it would be easy for a skeptic (i.e. someone debating me in a thread) to pick it apart as "would never work on ME" or whatever. And yes, sometimes it only requires a simple physical gesture...but other times requires a more thoughtful dialogue.

Two, does it matter? Do you not believe it is possible or something?

Often all that is necessary is remaining calm and actively listening. Affirming, validating her feelings. Keeping the conversation within respectable boundaries, again calmly, firmly, lovingly. Then gently guiding her to a positive outlook or approach, either subtly or directly depending upon circumstances. Then once she is calm and feeling more positive, I will take her in my arms, look her in the eyes, and kiss her...or maybe just hold her close for a moment and tell her how much I love her...or maybe dance with her briefly or otherwise tease and flirt with her...all depends on circumstance.

That is but one possible scenario of any number. Of what can work for HER. YOU may be different, and if I was your husband, I'd know how you were different and know what worked for YOU. Because that is the kind of man I am.

And any man can be this for his wife. No need to be anyone's "daddy". It's called being there for her. I guess if someone considers that being her "dad", then so be it. But my wife is her own woman and makes her own choices and has her own freedom to do what she wants. I'm not in control of her. I simply do whatever is within my power to love and respect her and our relationship, whatever is best for our mutual happiness and fulfillment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I have thrown bad tantrums, and he would walk away. Then I would stalk him, still tantrummy, and he would tell me to back off....I will NOT back off...so he engages finally and gets tantrummy, too. Thing is, conflict doesn't scare me so then the dual fighting was ON.

But the real problem was (this has since been resolved) that something he did to begin with is what set me off, I tried to discuss it rationally, he blows me off, then I'm PISSED. So I up the temperature of discussion, he "doesn't want to hear it"....that's when tantrum girl comes out. Oh you're GOING to hear this.

I have never thrown a tantrum about anything that wasn't related to his behavior toward me.

The things he did to set me off to begin with, were worse than throwing a tantrum. So I always felt justified in my tantrums.

Looking back, I do not know how I could have gotten to where we are now without the tantrums, because in our case, he was not good at owning his behavior when we met. So no matter how many times I would have pointed out something that wasn't fair to me, he would just ignore it, deny it, get defensive, or whatever...in reality he simply didn't want to have to hear anything negative about himself (this has changed).

So my tantrums? Totally justified. They finally got him to be like "wow, I guess if she is blowing up this big, maybe she really has a point"....and from there, we could actually work to change things. In our specific case, if I had just been quietly trying to get him "to understand" how he was hurting me, he would have just continued to ignore me.

But we are both very similar in temperament. One of us would have left the other if we were so different that one of us was calm and cool and the other was a hothead.

Again...I can't imagine just throwing a tantrum without a reason and being provoked.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Just,
> Sounds like someone who prefers Daddy to Partner. And I hear the echoes of contempt for the many partners who weren't willing or able to take on the role of Daddy.
> 
> Just recognize that the main reason Daddy is unaffected by your hostility isn't because he is an emotional battleship, but rather because he doesn't take you all that seriously.


Auch. That must have hurt.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> With those two statements you are coming off as an immature, childish adult, who, because CM disagrees with you, is resorting to trying to insult his wife, then him, when you have no other comeback. I guess you think from that one anecdote you know enough about her to classify her that way.


Ok, if I come off that way, that is ok with me. What exactly are you disagreeing with? I was not "coming back". I was saying something specific. Choosing to endure tantrumming from your "partner" is not a man/woman issue and does not demonstrate being strong. I am entitled to that opinion.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

justtryin said:


> I could give you dozens. But for one, it would require a great deal of detail describing context, circumstances, how she feels, what her needs are, her personality, what was going on in our lives at the time, etc. etc. Without that level of detail, it would be easy for a skeptic (i.e. someone debating me in a thread) to pick it apart as "would never work on ME" or whatever. And yes, sometimes it only requires a simple physical gesture...but other times requires a more thoughtful dialogue.


Holy dodge, batman!


> Two, does it matter? Do you not believe it is possible or something?


I do not believe it is possible to participate in a tantrum without effectively encouraging or enabling them to continue in the future. I don't believe it is a female trait to need to tantrum when feeling "vulnerable". And I don't believe it is manly to put up with a tantruming partner. Quite the opposite on the last, actually.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Last weekend we visited oldest daughter, she lives about 4 hours away.
> 
> Neither of us had made a hotel reservation in advance, mainly because we'd never had an issue getting a hotel there.
> 
> ...



Ok I get what you're saying.
And yes , I agree there is a difference , between a simple tantrum and angry and toxic behavioral patterns.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I have thrown bad tantrums, and he would walk away. Then I would stalk him, still tantrummy, and he would tell me to back off....I will NOT back off...so he engages finally and gets tantrummy, too. Thing is, conflict doesn't scare me so then the dual fighting was ON.
> 
> But the real problem was (this has since been resolved) that something he did to begin with is what set me off, I tried to discuss it rationally, he blows me off, then I'm PISSED. So I up the temperature of discussion, he "doesn't want to hear it"....that's when tantrum girl comes out. Oh you're GOING to hear this.
> 
> ...


This sounds childish, and lacking in self-control.

Do you not foresee a day where you may say something you truly regret, and which can't be taken back?

I suppose it will still be 'his fault', so I guess that's hypothetical.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Oh look!  There's Sandfly here to mock me! How totally expected.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

committed4ever said:


> *With those two statements you are coming off as an immature, childish adult, who, because CM disagrees with you, is resorting to trying to insult his wife, then him,* when you have no other comeback.


Therein ^^^ lies the irony in her post.

That's why I responded with a " lol."


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ok, if I come off that way, that is ok with me. What exactly are you disagreeing with? I was not "coming back". I was saying something specific. Choosing to endure tantrumming from your "partner" is not a man/woman issue and does not demonstrate being strong. I am entitled to that opinion.


I see. You are fine with the exhibiting the same behavior that you think warrants walking away from. I have no problem with that. 

And yes you are entitled to your own opinion, just as everyone else posting on this thread is entitled to theirs. But for someone who seem like they abhor childish behavior, you resort to it when someone disagrees with you. 

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing either way. Just pointing that out as rather ironic.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> I see. You are fine with the exhibiting the same behavior that you think warrants walking away from. I have no problem with that.


No I said I am fine with your thinking that is how I "come off".



> And yes you are entitled to your own opinion, just as everyone else posting on this thread is entitled to theirs. But for someone who seem like they abhor childish behavior, you resort to it when someone disagrees with you.


If you think so, you are also entitled to that opinion. As I am entitled to the opinion that one does not have to choose a tantruming spouse, and that that would be my prefered choice. And one does not have to accept tantruming behavior and can eradicate it with effective limit setting behavior as addressed by Mem. CM has chosen to accept tantruming in his "partner" which to me is a pretty strange "partnership".


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> No I said I am fine with your thinking that is how I "come off".
> 
> 
> If you think so, you are also entitled to that opinion. As I am entitled to the opinion that one does not have to choose a tantruming spouse, and that that would be my prefered choice. And one does not have to accept tantruming behavior and can eradicate it with effective limit setting behavior as addressed by Mem. CM has chosen to accept tantruming in his "partner" which to me is a pretty strange "partnership".


Not that this matters to you I'm sure, but there are actually some people who read these types of debates for information to enhance their own marriages. I can see both sides of this particular debate. On the very slim chance that you comment on this board to add to it and not subtract from it, when you resort to insulting someone's wife as a comeback, it reduces your credibility to just about zero. Up until that point I was seeing your viewpoint as something to consider. 

And yes, I know I know -- you don't give a dayum how I evaluate you or your opinion. But perhaps there are some other mature adults on here who actually might feel a sense of constraint when knowing someone may be actually gleaning from what they write. I'm NOT a mature adult as yet, still learning, growing and developing in my marriage so I do appreciate older adults who try to present themselves in a way that others may learn from them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> This sounds childish, and lacking in self-control.
> 
> Do you not foresee a day where you may say something you truly regret, and which can't be taken back?
> 
> I suppose it will still be 'his fault', so I guess that's hypothetical.


I have said terrible things. But dh still says, "I hear your words, but I know your heart." He just doesn't hold it against me.

Maybe it's like MEM said, that dh doesn't take me very seriously. I will ask him to look at MEM's posts when he gets off work.

Dh also told me, "When there's a tantrum, _someone_ is not listening."

When we read about people's relationships, we don't get the whole picture. I look at the things dh has said about me, and I know I must be bringing an awful lot to him. He is just 100% committed. 

I don't think he would feel that way if whatever I do that he likes did not greatly offset the times I get upset with him.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Holy dodge, batman!
> 
> 
> I do not believe it is possible to participate in a tantrum without effectively encouraging or enabling them to continue in the future. I don't believe it is a female trait to need to tantrum when feeling "vulnerable". And I don't believe it is manly to put up with a tantruming partner. Quite the opposite on the last, actually.


lol...Dodge...do I not speak the truth? Were I to give specific examples, would they necessarily relate to YOU personally...or would it simply be fodder for saying "that would never work because..."? I KNOW it works because I've done it, and the principles I've used are principles that apply universally. My guess is that you want details of a specific example because you doubt it can be done. Why else would you be asking. And what works specifically for one person may not work for another. But that does not mean the principles are not sound. Call it a cop-out if you'd like, but the reality is - it's going to depend upon the people and the circumstances, but the principles are the same and they work. It's like explaining why you fell in love with someone. Just because you're specific circumstances of why you fell in love may not apply to someone else, does not mean people do not fall in love. Details vary, principles are the same.

Despite all that, I did give you a very general response to a very particular instance...no comment on that? Meaning, did you not see how that would work? Do you not believe that possible? Or was it too specific to circumstance as I mention above.

If you could be more clear on precisely what you're trying to understand, I'll try to communicate it better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> . CM has chosen to accept tantruming in his "partner" which to me is a pretty strange "partnership".


Lol,

I've seen much " stranger" partnerships.
For example,

To me, accepting a partner who's having sex with someone else other than me ,like say " _swinging_" ,or " _open marriage_ " , can be considered a "strange partnership" _to me._
That can't work for me.

Not that swinging or open marriages might be directly connected to drama / bad behavior in a relationship or tantruming ,or maybe it might very well be.

But if it works for someone else,
Then I just say live and let live.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> Auch. That must have hurt.


Lol

Nah, s/he is just misinformed/misunderstanding. It happens 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> Not that this matters to you I'm sure, but there are actually some people who read these types of debates for information to enhance their own marriages. I can see both sides of this particular debate. On the very slim chance that you comment on this board to add to it and not subtract from it, when you resort to insulting someone's wife as a comeback, it reduces your credibility to just about zero. Up until that point I was seeing your viewpoint as something to consider.


Are you kidding? Who are you to judge my motives? I am debating with CM and others on a topic of women being so emotional that they cannot control their behavior and that it is cruel to use effective limit setting techniques. I have exactly nothing against CM. I am glad that he is happily married. But anyone who wants to discuss how if you don't tolerate crappy behavior from your wife, you are not a string manly man and you are hurting your poor wifey, you bet your behind I am going to disagree. 

I am married 20 years later to a person I love more than life because someone on a usenet board called bs on me for EXACTLY that behavior. Behavior that my husband would not have tolerated, would not have thought I was too weak and vulnerable to learn how to control.

So you may not like or agree what I am saying. Which is perfectly fine. But don't go thinking you have a clue what my motivation is. No, it is not to make you feel all warm and sunny. It is to discuss the issues that come for people who may need help like I once needed help.




> And yes, I know I know -- you don't give a dayum how I evaluate you or your opinion.


Well I sure as heck am of going to be of no help to YOU since you don't even seem to care what the opinion IS. Just that someone might have it and it might hurt someone's feelings.

But there are other people in the world.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> 
> I've seen much " stranger" partnerships.
> For example,
> ...


Absolutely. Which is fine. BUT none of these are male/female issues. They are issues between the partners and around the compatibility of outlook between the partners.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

Well, anyway, back to the matter at hand:

My H and I really don't have a lot of serious arguments, 1 or 2 a year. But when they escalate, and I start yelling, he will immediately say "don't yell at me. I don't yell at you so I'm not putting up with that." This usually results in me shutting down completely getting silent, and in turn, he gets silent too. Not exactly the "silent treatment" but more like constrained conversation about things that have to be talked about. We both just can't stand that and one of us ends up jokingly approaching the other until we both laugh. Pretty much rug sweeping. 

I guess since we don't seriously argue that often, it's not a big deal, except I can probably remember each and every serious argument we have had in our 9 years of marriage. I'm thinking we need to find a better way.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jld said:


> Maybe it's like MEM said, that dh doesn't take me very seriously. I will ask him to look at MEM's posts when he gets off work.
> 
> Dh also told me, "When there's a tantrum, _someone_ is not listening."
> 
> ...


I think understanding the reasons behind the actions (not being listened to) IS taking you seriously.

I see so many posts where a man complains about his wife's emotional outburst. She acted badly. The WHY she acted badly is glossed over and doesn't matter as much. Her reasons are not taken seriously. She is written off as a ***** or crazy and he is validated for ignoring what she wanted in the first place. Gotta make sure we know they won't "put up with that behavior" so don't give in or apologize, problem is the reason behind it all in the first place was never resolved. How is that taking her seriously?

That tantrum video I posted, I've seen it a few times. A lot of times I watch it and think wow, she's really acting crazy. He should just stop the car and make her get out. Other times I watch it and think, wow she has one day to spend with her husband, why can't they go to the damn lake? Why does he get to just say no instead of work something out? Couldn't they have figured out a compromise before it got to that point? Is that reaction just a combination of never getting what she wants, not getting to spend time with her husband and not being listened to?


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

> Dh also told me, "When there's a tantrum, someone is not listening."


I don't totally disagree with you but I also think tantrums can also be used as a manipulation tactic. 

The reason the woman in that video is having a meltdown tantrum is because it's worked before in the past. I can't imagine a healthy, mature woman EVER acting like that. Her parents never gave her proper boundaries and her husband was probably the same. She was probably that kid on the floor in Target screaming that she wanted a toy.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Boy what a debate we have going on here...this would be good for my conflict thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ead-4-types-5-1-ratio-marriage-conflicts.html 

4 styles are discussed ... 



> *Volatile*: Erupting Passionate disputes/ arguments
> 
> *Validating*: Fight more politely, calm collaborators, a great mutual respect is shown
> 
> ...



1st let me say...*Justtryin* that opening post of yours (#84)... explaining how a Man needs to walk away to MAN UP was ON THE MARK.. excellently explained..:smthumbup:....this is something I feel jld has not considered, nor understood in this argument about other couples...as she sees her own husband as so Unmovable, so Strong, so Manly.. but not all women have that sort of admiration and respect.. in fact they could be throwing a hellish Sh** test -using tantrums... and their husbands are being Pu$$y whipped, so it calls for another response to change that dynamic .. absolutely !! 

Also this...



> *Justtryin said:* What would someone do depends on myriad variables, including the personalities and dynamics between the two people. That's why it's critical a man is attentive enough and emotionally connected enough to truly know and understand his wife.
> 
> I know what my wife responds positively to. I know her needs. I know how to meet her needs. I know what to do in any given situation, I can read her and the situation and know what she needs from me. Then it's simply a matter of responding from a place of deep love and respect. This combination allows her to become calm, to feel my love and positive energy, to lead her to see the positive aspects of what is bothering her and away from the negative aspects, etc. To the point that she will be energetic and smiling by the time we are done, feeling good and feeling loved.
> 
> Like I said, I see that as part of my role as her husband, to be that for her, rather than leave her alone to figure it out alone. We got married because we didn't want to be alone.


My husband has an attitude like yours...and can I say.... I dearly love him for this.... Never looked upon him as my Daddy... Oh goodness he doesn't treat me like a child.. he would laugh at that prospect...I am hardly a little girl who is weak & can't hold my own.. I can be a Bear myself....and I don't need coddled....

It's just always been our conflict style to *not* leave each others side... if we even try to, which we have.... it's near silly as we come right back to each other...we just can't stand being  at each other... but that's a beautiful thing... 

I'm going to admit as I did on my thread.. when I get steamed.. I am passionate about it... I can be VOLATILE... Faithful Wife was another to admit she is similar... but we RESOLVE... and this is the important thing.. 

Oh my husband has hauled off and called me a Bi*ch in a moment... and you know what, I agree with him!! Oh yeah I deserved it!... I'm still self aware ...even when steam is coming out my ears...

I am not sure how to describe this without sounding half crazy but our fights are FUNNY as hell... He'd told me he's gonna get me a cage....once called me a Witch and I started laughing out loud....saying I needed to go get me a black hat, splash some green paint on my face & go get a broom.. on top of all of this we are usually naked too... We just wouldn't change our fights.. then we calm down, apologize.....and get validating...then have passionate made up sex.. it is what it is !.. 

Neither myself or him has any desire to change this... emotions can run strong at times.. but we always come back to loving each other... and our fights are not frequent , like once every 2 to 3 months like that..a little more during my insane drive phase.. when I was getting aggressive hoping to get him more aggressive.. oh the fun.. but this has calmed...


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Oh look! There's Sandfly here to mock me! How totally expected.


Of course I'm here! 

I'm stalking you, remember? 

The fact that I posted the 4th comment in this thread has nothing to do with me being here ! 

Who's stalking who? (still me, stalking you. It's because I like you really. I like your hat! Suits you!)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I think understanding the reasons behind the actions (not being listened to) IS taking you seriously. I think so, too, SGC. But I do consider it when people criticize me. Otherwise, how do we learn?
> 
> I know I am not impressed when people just get defensive and don't try to understand.
> 
> ...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

soccermom2three said:


> The reason the woman in that video is having a meltdown tantrum is because it's worked before in the past. I can't imagine a healthy, mature woman EVER acting like that. Her parents never gave her proper boundaries and her husband was probably the same. She was probably that kid on the floor in Target screaming that she wanted a toy.


Or every time she gets upset he just laughs it off and does what he wants anyway and never listens. She gets increasingly more upset and frustrated every time she feels she's not being listened to until it ends up to where they are then. Maybe actually letting her get what she wants sometimes (giving in) would solve the problem, not create it. 

With your kid example, if my kids had a fit I wouldn't give in but the fact that I do let them get a toy every now and then, talk to them beforehand so they clearly understand if it's a toy trip or not a toy trip and listen to and accommodate reasonable requests means they are very rare. You don't always have to punish the behavior, you can stop it before it begins. If he had taken her to the lake other weekends or clearly communicated beforehand that he needed to do his tires this week and made plans to do what she wanted for another time because he understood quality time together was important to her, I doubt it would have gotten to that point and they both would be happy. He chose the piss her off and tape it approach, which never works. 
Her reaction does not justify his action.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> Of course I'm here!
> 
> I'm stalking you, remember?
> 
> ...


Oh ok, so your post to me was meant to be helpful then? You care anything about my story? So you just lobbed an insult to me in a post without knowing anything else about me, my marriage, or what my post was referring to specifically, to be helpful to me and other married people or to increase understanding? Yep, sure.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CM,
I know you have a great marriage, and that your W is totally into you. I'm glad you get the distinction between a spouse conveying:
1. I'm really angry because and
2. You are going to do this thing that I want (no matter whether you think it's gong to produce a bad/really bad outcome. And I'm going to be hostile and aggressive until you comply.)

I'm glad, though not surprised that you have refrained from using the shaming tactics that others have resorted to on this thread. 

If you're a real man than you do X and don't do Y. Else you are weak and a boy, not a man. 

I spent months being supportive of M2 as she struggled to find her footing in a new job. I gently pointed out situations where I felt her actions might be perceived as competitive not collaborative. It was gratifying to see her begin to increase her self awareness and stop doing the stuff that was causing tension for her. 

It isn't being supportive to let your spouse steamroll you into actions that you believe may have very bad consequences. 

M2 is still angry at me for not dropping the hammer on an ex boyfriend of our eldest child. This kid lied about being in college for 3 full years. He wasted about 100K of his education fund in that manner. 

When his deception came to light he talked at length about committing suicide. About sitting in his closet, drenched with sweat, a loaded gun pointed to his head.

I told her: just because he lied about school, doesn't mean he's lying about suicide. We aren't his parents. It wasn't our money. I am going to be supportive of him. Our eldest was in love with him for many years. It will take her some time to decide what to do. We need to give her that time. I'm not ok with trying to force her to break up with him right now just because that is what you and I want. (And yes I did want their relationship to end). Let's take care not to drive them together by creating a common enemy (the evil controlling, cold, uncaring parents). 

And her response to that was to:
- threaten cancelation of our upcoming family trip to Europe and
- create as much conflict as possible 

I did empathize. I told her that I was also angry at him, but kicking the guy our daughter loved, when he was down was a dangerous sport and might produce the opposite of the desired result. 

Didn't matter. Her anger at him, and at our daughter for not dumping him on the spot all got directed at me. Told me I needed to man up and get our daughter to see the light. Told her that was exactly what I was doing, just didn't have a magic wand to align the result with her desire for instant gratification. 

Like I said, she still resents me for not validating her feelings by doing what she wanted. 


QUOTE=Caribbean Man;8290313]Ok I get what you're saying.
And yes , I agree there is a difference , between a simple tantrum and angry and toxic behavioral patterns.[/QUOTE]


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

JLD, 

Is it the leaving the room that bothers you most? Or is it actually how the argument is dealt with period? I think the whole leaving the room issue is somewhat of a smokescreen here and is not allowing to see that it is resolving the conflict is the issue. I'm sure some men have no choice because the woman will just go completely off and continue to escalate regardless of what the man does in response. Probably the rare case. Then there are some men, like my H, who will not leave the room physically but just demand that the "tantrum" stop immediately or ... I have never really continued long enough to see what he would do if I DIDN'T stop yelling. 

What makes me shut down when he demands I stop yelling is feeling ashamed that I am acting childish and he is trying to remain calm. So I just get silent.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Here's the link jld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi4Bsv_mWY&feature=youtu.be

I'm been mad enough to not want it taped and put on the internet, not like the video but in my own way. I snapped a few times lately that were pretty bad and since then I see the video in a very different way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I really appreciated your post, FW. I know you and I are not the only women in the world who have had tantrums. 

Being open and honest about it can help other people who may not be willing to admit the same thing happens in their marriage.

We are all just learning here.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Here's the link jld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi4Bsv_mWY&feature=youtu.be
> 
> I'm been mad enough to not want it taped and put on the internet, not like the video but in my own way. I snapped a few times lately that were pretty bad and since then I see the video in a very different way.


I wonder if this is fake? Seems like it would have been hard to video from those different angles without her knowing it.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Here's the link jld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi4Bsv_mWY&feature=youtu.be
> 
> I'm been mad enough to not want it taped and put on the internet, not like the video but in my own way. I snapped a few times lately that were pretty bad and since then I see the video in a very different way.


I'm hearing a man trying to talk and she keeps talking over him, not letting him finish a sentence. She sounds like a lunatic.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

committed4ever said:


> JLD,
> 
> Is it the leaving the room that bothers you most? Or is it actually how the argument is dealt with period? I think the whole leaving the room issue is somewhat of a smokescreen here and is not allowing to see that it is resolving the conflict is the issue. I'm sure some men have no choice because the woman will just go completely off and continue to escalate regardless of what the man does in response. Probably the rare case. Then there are some men, like my H, who will not leave the room physically but just demand that the "tantrum" stop immediately or ... I have never really continued long enough to see what he would do if I DIDN'T stop yelling.
> 
> What makes me shut down when he demands I stop yelling is feeling ashamed that I am acting childish and he is trying to remain calm. So I just get silent.


I just don't want women to be emotionally bullied. And I don't think men realize how much of that power they have over us. 

I know some women say they are not like that at all, and that is great. But I have known many women who are sensitive to how their husbands react to their anger. Not one that I have known, in real life, has said, "Gee, I am so happy he leaves the room when I am angry with him!"

I think what justtryin was trying to tell me, though, is that some men do not feel they have power in their relationship. And I know somebody else here on TAM told me that once. But because that is not how my husband is, I don't have that as a ready reference. I have not lived it, so I don't really and truly understand it.

I look up to dh so much, and rely on him so much. Dh forgets Valentine's Day and thinks two hugs a day is a lot (I think 15 a day is lots ). But he is solid emotionally. I am never "too much" for him. 

And he would never even say the word divorce to me, or call me a name, or swear at me. He said that while I throw words around all the time, he knows his words have weight, and could crush me. And he just does not want to do that.

I think a lot of women need that kind of security in their lives. But they are not getting it. 

And while I understand some men are not capable of providing it, when I see advice given so freely to undermine a woman's sense of security, I am just shocked. Do men not realize how sensitive women are to how they are treated?

I guess some of the men would say they are sensitive too, to how they are treated. That just seems strange to me. But again, it is because I am not married to someone like that. 

Dh is not affected by my mood. He is like the rock, or the tree. I can dance around him all I want, but he is not going to be thrown off. It is very reassuring to me to know that my emotions just can't shake him. And, again, I have talked to enough other women to know that they would appreciate this kind of stability from their husbands, too.

I am trying to get a better deal for all women, by opposing advice that I think hurts women.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Yes, FW, it's meant to help you. 

Maybe I joke around too much, but I'm talking from an experience.

A long-term g/f of mine, about ten years ago, threw a tantrum because she wanted some rent money. We'd just signed a rental agreement together. Before we'd moved in, I explained that she'd have to cover the first two months, because I'd just started a new job. 

She agreed.

I'd started this new job in her area, so we could move in together, so really, there was no other way if this was what she wanted.

The night before, she starts talking about how she wants the money now. Bear in mind, that I'd supported her financially and emotionally through her frequent unemployment bouts in the past. 

I'd given her money for her to live on, buy clothes etc. 

Now she'd found a decent job, at last, hallelujah, happy for her.... and all she had to do was wait till my first couple of wage packets came through. 

In mid hissy fit she said:

"Why should *I *have to _always_ pay everything!?!"

A- It was nonsense. It may be how she felt, but it wasn't reality.
B- I found out how little my help had mattered to her in the past. I was under the impression that we were a team.

My love for her vanished over an outburst... My decision to dump her within a few hours of going away to the new flat for a think. When I came back she was all sugar and light... she didn't know she was already gone!

In a way it was great, because I never thought about her once for many years after that, I never dreamed about her, never considered making contact. 

She sent me a couple of letters through my letterbox telling me how she was getting on... her married sister used to come around when she shouldn't have... her parents were always trying to talk me into visiting her...

The last time I saw her was when I was walking out to lunch in a nearby city, and she was in a crowd of people. She had a nasty scowl on her face, and she was shouting at a couple of kids, which I presume were hers...

I think she regretted it big time.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sandfly said:


> This sounds childish, and lacking in self-control.
> 
> Do you not foresee a day where you may say something you truly regret, and which can't be taken back?
> 
> I suppose it will still be 'his fault', so I guess that's hypothetical.


I give Faithful Wife 2 thumbs up for speaking her story as it was....in what she dealt with .....and how they have resolved it.. you know what.. it sounds to me her husband was being pretty thick skulled in some of his behaviors -she didn't really elaborate on those... but I know she delve heavily into the Marriage builders website for a depth of insight to fix their problems.. and here they are, a Marriage success story.... it finally got through.. they had their breakthrough... it's all in the resolving, finding that harmony with each other again..

My opinion.. this is superior over the couple who routinely rug sweeps...takes the passive aggressive route, the deeper sharing stops... we don't want to offend each other..... Apathy springs... Resentment takes root and grows.... then we have "walk away wives" or Men who can't understand.. why doesn't she want sex with me anymore? 

*Conflict resolution* ...and finding your peace again with your partner is primarily more important over judging others conflict styles..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

But don't you think it was better for both of you, Sandfly, that it ended? You got to see who she was inside. She got to see how you would react under pressure.

Women are capable of loving for a long time after a relationship has ended. I have heard men say the same thing. But it was for the best that you two moved on.

Don't you want to really know the woman in your life deeply, so you can know if you truly want to make a commitment to her or not? Wouldn't it be helpful to see the worst of her before marriage, so you know what you are truly getting?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> Yes, FW, it's meant to help you.
> 
> Maybe I joke around too much, but I'm talking from an experience.
> 
> ...


This helps me how? It has literally zero to do with me, my husband, our dynamic, our personalities, our issues, our fighting style...and has 100% to do with you, but nothing in this story is even similar to my marriage.

So how is this supposed to help me?

And keep in mind...I never asked for your help, either. You said your snarky post to me was "trying to help", then you posted this story that has nothing to do with me and say it is also "trying to help". I'm just trying to understand...why do you think I need your help at all and how are these two things helpful?

I posted my short version of a problem that used to occur in my marriage. You jumped in to mock me. Helpful?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sandfly said:


> A long-term g/f of mine, about ten years ago, threw a tantrum because she wanted some rent money. We'd just signed a rental agreement together. Before we'd moved in, I explained that she'd have to cover the first two months, because I'd just started a new job.
> 
> She agreed.
> 
> ...


 You know what I see in this story... even without a tantrum...this would have happened, oh the tantrum just speeded it up (a blessing)... but the underlying issue here was her not acknowledging all you have done for her..financially...and emotionally as she got on her feet....this was very disrespectful to you...like a slap in the face..tantrum or none, you would have still grown weary with that attitude ...once you realized it was underlying....she felt "entitled" to your money just cause you were her BF... it was an un-justified Entitlement behavior you were repulsed by that your love ran cold...

My point in this discussion is that NOT ALL outbursts are Unjustified.. 

I feel it does make a difference.. and a self aware man would know that difference.. when I fight with my H.. *he understands he has let me down in some way*.. 

For instance and I know this is small stuff here ... I made this special "Spice jar"... took all this trouble, make a darn thread on it, happy to write up all these sexy snippets...that he could use on me.... he never looked in the damn thing... Oh I'd let it go... shut my mouth....but it would be in the back of my mind....lurking.... as he promised to do these things...then pms might come upon me.. and . and WHAM.. it wasn't a good day and I wanted to know why he has not looked in that damn spice jar... as he promised me... time and time again...

You see...HE LET ME DOWN... 

So he recognizes his own hand in WHY I would get upset.. how important for all of us..


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> This helps me how? It has literally zero to do with me, my husband, our dynamic, our personalities, our issues, our fighting style...and has 100% to do with you, but nothing in this story is even similar to my marriage.
> 
> So how is this supposed to help me?
> 
> ...


I didn't realise this was the Faithful Wife show.

Anyway, I hope it helps, and that tantrums don't end up speeding up (as SA put it) or exposing a fatal difference of worldview in your relationship.

It's easy to say something that you can't take back when you're not in control of yourself. That's the message. With gratis example.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

jld said:


> I sometimes find myself defending "women" on TAM, even when I know IRL I would not really defend what is being discussed. Please don't ask for details.
> 
> I just put myself in the place of the group being discussed, and the comments then seem so judgmental and hurtful. I feel like I cannot *not* defend "women" as a group in those instances.
> 
> Does this happen to you, too?


No, the beta error of defending nitwits is too high for either gender. Defense calls for a more complex model than binary.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> I didn't realise this was the Faithful Wife show.
> 
> Anyway, I hope it helps, and that tantrums don't end up speeding up (as SA put it) or exposing a fatal difference of worldview in your relationship.
> 
> It's easy to say something that you can't take back when you're not in control of yourself. That's the message. With gratis example.


And you somehow assume you have knowledge to share with me that I don't have? Based on what exactly? You know nothing about me, yet you assume that your vast experience is something I need to draw upon?

And to share that vast experience with me, in an attempt to help me....you said to me "this sounds childish and like it lacks self-control". That's how you approached me with your kind offer of knowledge.

Yet somehow I'm supposed to go from "sounds childish" etc. and take that to mean "oh look, Sandfly wants to HELP me! He is so kind! Wow!"

Of course you've left many mocking posts about me, my marriage, and my husband on other threads. So I was supposed to just ignore those, and see "sounds childish" as your attempt to turn all that around and be kind to me now. :scratchhead:

Conveniently, you ignored the many times in my post that I said the issues at hand have been resolved now. And you instead offer "help" to me, in the form of snark.

You also conveniently ignored the fact that I didn't actually say the things my husband did to create anger in me. The reason I did not share those things is because I don't want to bad mouth him here as it isn't fair to him IMO, and also because as I said, these issues have been resolved.

But no, you assume he did nothing to warrant my behavior and tell me "sounds childish" without having any idea what those issues between us really were.

So....to be clear here....I do not believe you that you wanted to help me. Instead, you have followed behind me on MANY posts and mocked me and my marriage, so I am used to this now.

You want to pretend now that you were actually being "helpful"?

Even though NOTHING in my post indicated I needed your help, or anyone's?

I have no idea why you think you come across as sincere, but you do not.

"You didn't realize this is the Faithful Wife show" is just another example of your mockery. I posted one thing. You mocked it. I called you out on it. You made up a story about being helpful. I called you out on that, and now the mockery "Faithful Wife show". Yeah, that makes sense.

All of this back and forth could have been avoided if you simply had not mocked me in the first place.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> One of my biggest core needs is for stability, straight up.
> 
> In order to get that kind of stability, I have to be accountable for my own. How can I expect stability if I am constantly undermining it by communicating poorly?


FrenchFry,

What you say sounds good in theory, and makes for good ideals.

However, after being married for some time, there are things that you can only learn from experience.

My wife used to be a very poor communicator, had passive aggressive tendencies .
When I first started our business, I lost more than a hundred thousand dollars partly because of the passive aggressive attitude and poor communication.
We lost lots of contracts and almost lost the business.

I had to deal with her short comings, sometimes tantrums _and_ a failing business.

Long story short, I couldn't tell her to " fix herself" neither could I have hoped that she could do it alone.
I had to help her.
She was there in times past, and she accepted me with m ton loads of shortcomings before we were married and it was ony fair imo, to do the same for her.

Today, 20 yrs later we are much more happier for it.

I believe each couple could set the boundaries in their conflict resolution styles as they see fit.
I believe marriage is a continuum, what might apply at a certain period of the relationship might not work during another period.
And then there is personal growth.

However I don't believe that whatever style chosen makes one man superior over another man who chooses a different style.
And I think this is the sticking point on the thread.

Like I said in the beginning, one size cannot fit all.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Jld, your experiences in marriage are not mine or those of many or maybe most women. We are not all ultra-sensitive creatures in need of a man's protection. There is no reason to expect the majority of men to stand there and take a woman's raging tantrum. Your husband chooses to. Others would not.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Sandfly said:


> It's easy to say something that you can't take back when you're not in control of yourself. That's the message. With gratis example.


True.

Three things that come not back:

1]The spent arrow
2]The Lost opportunity
3]The spoken word.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> And to share that vast experience with me, in an attempt to help me....you said to me "this sounds childish and like it lacks self-control". That's how you approached me with your kind offer of knowledge.


It does sound childish. Tantrums are childish. Tantrums happen to people who lack self-control. 

If you didn't like my example of a tantrum backfiring, that's fine.

You don't know if I'm being sincere or not... You do that an awful lot, accuse others of insincerity.

Do you think this is normal behaviour? Does accusing others of insincerity produce results in real life?

You know where the ignore button is, so use it if you're feeling so stressed about what I think.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Actually I just accuse you of insincerity, Sandfly. And I know you are being insincere now. But tell yourself and try to pretend here that you just really wanted to help me. Uh huh. Sure. You are so innocent and just want to help. You've never mocked me before. Right.

And yeah, twist it around...pretend you know something about me...right, I'm out there "accusing others of insincerity in real life" all over the place. Yep.

Again, this all could have been avoided had you simply not mocked me to begin with. We both know you have no intention of helping me and never did. Why not just own up to your real motive? To mock me because you don't like me. I can live with that as the truth is what it is. 

But pretend you wanted to help me?

Oh, I'm not going to just be quiet or ignore a huge lie like that.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

You're on your own now. Don't have a meltdown.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Of course I'm on my own...you can't possibly just own up to your own truth in regards to your real motivation for posting to me at all today.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

It's hard to defend your gender when you don't even have to look at a profile to tell which type of post belongs to which gender.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I give Faithful Wife 2 thumbs up for speaking her story as it was....in what she dealt with .....and how they have resolved it.. you know what.. it sounds to me her husband was being pretty thick skulled in some of his behaviors -she didn't really elaborate on those... but I know she delve heavily into the Marriage builders website for a depth of insight to fix their problems.. and here they are, a Marriage success story.... it finally got through.. they had their breakthrough... it's all in the resolving, finding that harmony with each other again..
> 
> My opinion.. this is superior over the couple who routinely rug sweeps...takes the passive aggressive route, the deeper sharing stops... we don't want to offend each other..... Apathy springs... Resentment takes root and grows.... then we have "walk away wives" or Men who can't understand.. why doesn't she want sex with me anymore?
> 
> *Conflict resolution* ...and finding your peace again with your partner is primarily more important over judging others conflict styles..


Thanks, SA!

We have been through a lot, and come out the other side.

And yes, we employed anything we could to help us. The MB material really helped us a lot...but the thing that helped us the most was the most recent round of counseling we had. The C is/was just amazing! We both respect his style and he worked with us on our communication in a way that finally ended our battles.

We were always in love, though. We have always felt a deep love for each other we couldn't avoid or ignore. Any time we contemplated breaking up, we both just felt like "this isn't right, we have to work this out".

My husband has apologized to me many times about the past issues, and about his part in them and I have done the same. 

My family and friends are all very happy we worked things out, because they all told us we simply can't ever break up because it is obvious we are meant to be together.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> I really appreciated your post, FW. I know you and I are not the only women in the world who have had tantrums.
> 
> Being open and honest about it can help other people who may not be willing to admit the same thing happens in their marriage.
> 
> We are all just learning here.


Thanks JLD!

Yes, I posted because I know our story isn't totally unique, so hopefully someone with a similar dynamic to ours might get hope from it (that even if things look really bad, it can be turned around).

I'm not sure how you talk or what you say when you are having a tantrum. I'm not sure we all mean the same thing with that word. I called my stuff tantrums only because that is the word that was being said on this post. But anyway, in my "tantrums", I don't call names or say anything I need to take back. I am honest and open and just saying it louder than normal. And the same with him. When he would fight back with me, he never called names or said things that weren't true.

We honestly were never trying to hurt each other, we just wanted to be heard and understood.

I know that now, even if he didn't hear me or want to listen, I wouldn't have to throw a tantrum to get his attention. I would be able to just say "but remember what we learned in counseling about x, y, z" and he automatically gets back in the game to listen.

I'm so happy we resolved those issues. It took a lot of inner work on both of our parts.

Our counselor also told us that it is obvious our deep love for each other was the reason we were both able to make those changes. That was nice to hear.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The main distortion was in bold in my post. 

What did you think of the youtube video link included in my post?

Do you consider that behavior even remotely acceptable? 




jld said:


> Why so defensive, MEM?
> 
> And please point out the verbal distortion and emotional manipulation.
> 
> And did you read justtryin's post?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Sandfly said:


> It does sound childish. Tantrums are childish. Tantrums happen to people who lack self-control.


And people who push or are bullying to others until they show emotion are just as lacking as the emotional ones. 

Saying stuff like " _You're on your own now. Don't have a meltdown_." sure doesn't make you sound in control. It makes you sound like you are pushing buttons to get a reaction. 
That behavior is no better and no more adult than a tantrum. 

Now if people were to behave in that way and DO get a reaction, they need to look at their part in causing it and work together to fix it. Poking someone until they snap is a 2 person problem. Don't blame it all on the snapper.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> The main distortion was in bold in my post.
> 
> What did you think of the youtube video link included in my post?
> 
> Do you consider that behavior even remotely acceptable?


Did you read my post #104? I wrote it to you a few pages back.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I just don't want women to be emotionally bullied. And I don't think men realize how much of that power they have over us.


This is what I find so wrong about these gender posts. NO ONE should be emotionally bullied. The most sure fire way to prevent this is to be emotionally strong enough that no one CAN bully you. There simply is no gender predisposition to emotional strength. I would think the variety of posts on this board should be enough to demonstrate that point. If you and your husband have worked out a system by which he can help you through whatever, that is lovely. But that does not a woman condition make.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> Jld, your experiences in marriage are not mine or those of many or maybe most women. We are not all ultra-sensitive creatures in need of a man's protection. There is no reason to expect the majority of men to stand there and take a woman's raging tantrum. Your husband chooses to. Others would not.



Some people are more emotional than others. Remember that opposites attract and low-emo often attracts high-emo and vice versa. 

Men take all kinds of behavior from women and vice versa. A relationship where both partners are like the Cleavers does not look very promising. I have several low-low married friends, Cleaver galore...

Emotion is close to passion, and one would do well to learn how to channel emotion to passion. My older girl does that, she's 100% emotion like her mom. Unlike mom tho, she channels it to her passion for art. Indeed some of her most remarkable work was when she was busy fighting WW2 with my wife. 

It's good to be emotional as it shows one has multiple facets in their personality - even heavy duty emotions. It's how much you can keep an eye on your emotions that matters at the end, is the genie in the bottle or out of the bottle?

My mom was incredibly emotional - like most in her family, my dad, meh. Lifer in the Army . Yet she was very creative and very caring. I decided shedding emotions was a good self defense mechanism when I moved to the US. And when my wife went cuckoo a few years ago. 

Emotions are like fever, your mind is trying to tell you something. Use the signals wisely. Heck, I'm more worried about my younger girl who has my emotions (very little). To her, too, shedding emotions was her way of dealing with mom's rages but I'm more concerned that she's too analytical and calculating (wonder where that came from).

When tantrums happen, and they will, use the opportunity to learn something new about yourself and your partner.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

John -- I'm not at all an emotional female. I can't imagine throwing a tantrum. My ex-husband was somewhat emotional but definitely didn't throw tantrums. I wasn't aware until TAM that some women need men to soothe their emotions and protect them. That was not how I grew up. 

I don't think a man should be expected to stand there and take a woman's rage. Yes, we all get annoyed. Sometimes we get very, very annoyed. But there are more productive ways of handling it than rage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> When tantrums happen, and they will, use the opportunity to learn something new about yourself and your partner.


Very wise. It took me some time, but I learned many things about myself in retrospect, and I learned many things about him. What I learned makes me love him MORE and respect myself MORE...because although it was tough and we were both fiery and tantrummy, we actually didn't devolve into name calling or cruelty. We actually did stick to the real issues, we didn't turn our fight into an excuse to just haul out mean things to lob at each other. Granted, we were lousy at communication in general, but the love and intent behind every fight we ever had...was actually innocent of meannness. That's what I learned. At our worst, we are still so very in love, and we don't *want* to hurt each other. 

John, your case is pretty harsh...but what have you learned about yourself from past fights? I am sure there are ways you are proud of the way you handled things in some cases and not so proud in other cases, like most of us?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have less of an issue with tantrums or rage and much more of an issue with hidden rage, passive aggressive, or plain clueless.

Entire cultures exist that have made visible emotioneering a critical part of their lives. Middle Easterners, many Hispanics, Mediterraneans... 

As long as there is a legitimate reason, a successful resolution, and a lesson learned from all this I'm all for it..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> *I have less of an issue with tantrums or rage and much more of an issue with hidden rage, passive aggressive, or plain clueless.*


At least when it is out there, you know what you are working with. The hidden is indeed much more difficult.

Do you think with hidden rage and PA, john, people don't feel safe enough to just express themselves openly and honestly?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Not sure if emotioneering is a word, but I love it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

First, we went thru a period of two years where we had weekly tantrums. That was the full blown BPD time, when my older girl was 10th and 12th grade. 

I learned a lot about my wife: 

- no ability to express and use feelings in a productive manner
- serious fears of losing social status
- considerable focus on material things
- inability to accept other viewpoints unless there's overwhelming evidence 
- no problems using others as excuses (i.e. use my older girl as an excuse to start a tantrum on the weekend...)
- very weak character overall, ripe with insecurities of every kind
- no focus on OUR future but plenty of focus on HER future

What I learned about myself:

- courage under fire, a lot more than I thought I could muster
- 50 shades of manipulation 
- vastly improved my predictive skills with her
- not good at providing validation (not that it worked)
- complete focus shift from US to ME to MY KIDS
- too focused on winning arguments but losing focus on the main issues
- I could be extremely annoying and often starting arguments just to wear her down (worked quite well)

Eventually I had my way with my daughter's selection of college and major, and eventually the tantrums stopped as she realized I had little to lose and that any tantrum would be met with an equal magnitude and duration tantrum. There were times where I would instigate things just to keep her blood boiling. Not a good thing to do obviously but you really had to do it this way to make her comprehend what she was doing to us. Eventually she did. Karma is a beech, I know.

In retrospect walking out five years ago would have been smart except... We live in a county that has a female prosecutor and female chief judge of the family court system and given their record this all but guarantees that unless mom is like the lady in Houston that dispatched her kids, custody to the father was highly unlikely. The thought of my kids spending a few more years with her never appealed to me so... As the warfare subsided I did - still do - a 180. Our intimate life before all this was decent, but once the warfare started she started using sex as a reward / weapon of sorts, not every time but often enough, and also dropped the frequency down to the universal LD constant. Eventually it all became pretty meaningless, I tried a few times to change to a kinder, gentler :lol: partner, little response. 

Thru her tantrums I also learned that she's not the kind of person to take care of an ailing spouse, not is she the kind of person that comprehends cash flows. So a split is highly likely in the next 2-3 years because the finances simply don't work out the way she thinks they do. 

I have great insight that tells me that when we split ways she's not going to have an easy time. She lacks social grace, not a surprise, and trusts nobody, a perilous position to be in. 

I offer IC and MC frequently - no dice - pity because we have awesome coverage incl. BPD.... Oh well.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Do you think with hidden rage and PA, john, people don't feel safe enough to just express themselves openly and honestly?



Absolutely. Anything hidden gives a false sense of security... Not a good situation.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The video says more about the husband than it does about his wife. It says a great deal about our culture and the acceptance of disloyalty between a husband and wife. Moreover, it shows a disturbing tread to live in banal pics and short videos. 

His wife is an unstable person and in need of help. His kids need help too. What does this paragon of righteousness do! He holds this human being up to ridicule.

If he posted a video of his brother acting crazy, would he be applauded as a hero? Why is he hailed in this situation? 

Actually, it shows a person with zero empathy and compassion poking a person who is easy to provoke. He's no hero he is a weak bully. 

This isn't just some woman, it's his wife, the mother of his children. It's a fellow human in need of help. Speaking of children, he didn't get that right either. Fathers protect their children. 

I wonder how much time he spends getting his children strait, getting their mother help? I'll bet the spends plenty of time making a short documentary of his burdensome wife. I should add while his kids watch. 

His priority is himself. He is the crazy one. She is lucky to get him out of her life. She'll be ok, he won't. 

He' will eventually pick the wrong woman, someone who is crazier than he and more devious.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The wife may be unstable and in need of help but if she's not seeking help she forfeits any consideration of her condition. 

I watched the video and sad to say I've experienced stuff that makes this video look familiar...

The woman is unstable, granted, but the husband isn't any pillar of strength either. I don't know the background but I suspect he was egging her on to get the desired reaction.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> The video says more about the husband than it does about his wife. It says a great deal about our culture and the acceptance of disloyalty between a husband and wife. Moreover, it shows a disturbing tread to live in banal pics and short videos.


I've seen that video before, but don't know the story behind it....anyone know what happened to her... to him??

I must agree with you in the fact --if he allowed this to go public, what the H was he thinking.. what about their kids.. they would be endlessly ridiculed in school over this ... and I am sure he was down playing how he NORMALLY reacts himself just so he comes out smelling like a rose...the calm stable husband.

Now on the other hand, I can see him doing this.. and showing it to her afterwards so she can HEAR HERSELF... and take note of her behavior... but never going public.. this was vindictive to the core....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The really cuckoo ones don't hear themselves, SA. My house has a fairly sophisticated security system with a handful of cameras and DVR. I captured more video of my wife in a similar mood than I care to think. It does not help. 

They do not care. Even better, they don't see themselves in the video. They think it's someone else.

Magical thinking at its best.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

All I thinking watching that was why the heck is he arguing with someone who needs nicotine lol


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I've grown up with intelligent women around me my whole life. Whenever I've had issues with people, male or female, I've had them because of certain personality traits that clash with my own, not because of what is in their pants. I hear other women say things like, 'I only get along with men' etc and I hear stereotypes constantly on this forum. It feels more like a school yard than a forum full of adults when I hear these things. I get along with both men and women and I don't hold a person's sex against them. If they're idiots/manipulative/cruel, I hold that against them and I'm not naïve enough to believe that the traits I don't like in people are contained only in either men or women. People forget we're all human. Being sexist, even against your own sex, is as bad as being racist imo.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've seen that video before, but don't know the story behind it....anyone know what happened to her... to him??
> 
> I must agree with you in the fact --if he allowed this to go public, what the H was he thinking.. what about their kids.. they would be endlessly ridiculed in school over this ... and I am sure he was down playing how he NORMALLY reacts himself just so he comes out smelling like a rose...the calm stable husband.
> 
> Now on the other hand, I can see him doing this.. and showing it to her afterwards so she can HEAR HERSELF... and take note of her behavior... but never going public.. this was vindictive to the core....


Last I heard, when the video first came out last year, they were getting a divorce. His story is that was a common reaction when she didn't get her way and he never promised to take her to the lake. Her story was he baited her and did promise to take her to the lake. 

Yes, I think he set her up. Yes, I think that was a common reaction. I doubt many men are comfortable with histrionics and I think he decided to pay her back. At that point they had been married a year. She is a nurse with a Master's. He claimed he had worked 60 hours that week and had things to do that Saturday and had told her so. 

In my opinion, both were wrong that day.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> The video says more about the husband than it does about his wife. It says a great deal about our culture and the acceptance of disloyalty between a husband and wife. Moreover, it shows a disturbing tread to live in banal pics and short videos.
> 
> His wife is an unstable person and in need of help. His kids need help too. What does this paragon of righteousness do! He holds this human being up to ridicule.
> 
> ...


The story I read last year was that it was a one year marriage with no children. Thankfully. I assume the divorce was finalized. I saw nothing further on it beyond all the publicity when it came out last year.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> Very wise. It took me some time, but I learned many things about myself in retrospect, and I learned many things about him. What I learned makes me love him MORE and respect myself MORE...*because although it was tough and we were both fiery and tantrummy, we actually didn't devolve into name calling or cruelty. We actually did stick to the real issues, we didn't turn our fight into an excuse to just haul out mean things to lob at each other.* Granted, we were lousy at communication in general, *but the love and intent behind every fight we ever had...was actually innocent of meannness. That's what I learned. At our worst, we are still so very in love, and we don't *want* to hurt each other. *


As you already know this FW.. there is a great difference between a *Volatile fighting couple* ...and the *Hostile couple*..(explained below)..which it sounds you stayed away from.. as always did me & my H as well...

In this article Conflict Styles...it says this of the Volatile..." They seem to enjoy the deepest level of passion and love, of the 3 conflict styles.













> *1. *Volatile Couples
> 
> For volatile couples, conflicts erupt easily, and are fought on grand scale, but of course, making up is even greater! These couples have passionate disputes, and frequent and passionate arguments.
> 
> ...


*VS..*. 



> *4. *Hostile Couples...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Oh, my goodness. I just watched that video. So she was in withdrawal from nicotine? I have heard that is really hard. And she said she was having an anxiety attack? I have heard that is really bad, too.

I am so glad they are getting divorced.

So he controls all the money, too? And he's driving? And she feels powerless. And hence, the tantrum.

It is just not worth it for women to get married if they don't marry kind, compassionate, secure men.

A good man would never treat his wife that way, trap her and bait her like that. He would have listened when she asked him to work on the budget. They would have decided together what to do for the weekend. He would not take her in the car and then trick her and say they were going somewhere else.

But I bet a lot of women are living with men like the one in the video. My goodness. Well, they say women initiate 60% of divorces. Just from seeing this, I can understand why.

Thank you for bringing this video to my attention, SGC.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Openminded said:


> In my opinion, both were wrong that day.


I agree. It's easy to look at her and list the reasons why she's wrong but just because she is wrong doesn't make him right. Considering he knew he was being taped and he was the one with the control of of course he's going to be less emotional. If she was the one taping and in the drivers seat saying "No, we can't get your tires done because we're going to the lake today. Too bad ha ha ha." I'm sure he'd be pissed off too. But she would probably be looked at as a b*tch in that situation too, and he would be a doormat. It was very simple, book the tires in for 8 or 9 am, they are done in an hour and then off to the beach. He just decided he was the boss and could dictate yes or no to her requests instead of looking at her as an equal with equal say. It's a lot easier to be in control when you are the one with control. 

I also think it's a logical thinker vs. emotional thinker clash. If facts add up to the logical one being right (tires need to be done for safety, lake isn't a need) they think that's what's most important. Since gender often plays a role in that it often becomes a man vs woman thing. 

That's what irks me about the "don't give in, don't apologize" kind of advice. Just because someone reacted badly doesn't mean they were wrong in what they wanted in the first place. Their want was as valid as yours and no one person should have the final say ability, I don't care what gender you are. If you find yourself in a power struggle it's not always best to hold your ground, sometimes you need to look at if things are really equal and find ways to balance it out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Regardless of how the woman was provoked and regardless of her state of withdrawal she should have enough, what's the right word, mindfulness and self control to recognize that she can't have her way on the particular instance. 

My rule of thumb is that the person who starts screaming or acting out usually has lost the argument and the rest is just fluff. There are better ways, intellectually honest or not, to get what you want without subjecting yourself / primarily / and others into this.

I don't think I have any magical foretelling powers yet I invariably know from the beginning whether a discussion or argument will produce the desired effect. With most people, not just my wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Would you want either of your daughters married to that man, john?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nope. 

But if they chronically acted the way the woman acted, and did not seek treatment, I would not fault any man for taking any (non physical) action they thought necessary to deal with her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Nope.
> 
> But if they chronically acted the way the woman acted, and did not seek treatment, I would not fault any man for taking any (non physical) action they thought necessary to deal with her.


Taking a video and sending it around the world?

Why not just seek a divorce straightaway?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree with you that it's a valid choice to walk away from a temper tantrum. I guess it just depends on what kind of outburst we are talking about. Just acting upset and raised voice? Or acting like this woman Wife's Temper Tantrum At Husband - YouTube Throwing things? Being abusive? I'd have different feelings about each one.


I finally watched the video.... This guy is an a**. She may have lost the argument by having a tantrum but he has lost all respect from me.

He taped this video because he is convinced he is in the right and he thinks he looks good. He is pathetic. It is a complete lack of respect for his wife.

I have real issues with the limit idea. Do you want to be politically correct in your marriage? Because this type of behavior (from the man) forces that political correctness and therefore shuts down the communication.

No one is perfect and we all have issues include this guy. Just appalling.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Because some people can only be shamed into making the right decision. 

Would it be better to divorce, sue for custody on the grounds of mental illness, and have all the dirty laundry aired out in front of the court and a myriad of friends and family?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Because some people can only be shamed into making the right decision.
> 
> Would it be better to divorce, sue for custody on the grounds of mental illness, and have all the dirty laundry aired out in front of the court and a myriad of friends and family?


I think transparency makes us accountable for our actions. We have to look at what we are doing and why, and try to see how helpful it is to us.

I know transparency is embarrassing. We have to set aside our pride and really think about the deep issues, not what we look like.

I just don't know how else to solve problems, other than looking deeply and really trying to see what is the root of the problem.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's right.... We can freak out over - or enjoy  - the video but without understanding its root cause we can't even begin to think of an answer.

Posting the video was very bad taste but I would wager the woman in the video acts this way in real life give or take. Not raging screams but difficult to deal with, non compromising, etc.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jld said:


> I have said terrible things. But dh still says, "I hear your words, but I know your heart." He just doesn't hold it against me.
> 
> Maybe it's like MEM said, that dh doesn't take me very seriously. I will ask him to look at MEM's posts when he gets off work.
> 
> ...


I asked dh about this. He said he takes _me_ seriously. He said he doesn't take _my words_ seriously. 

Again, "I hear your words, but I know your heart." 

_Looking beyond the behavior, looking for the root cause . . ._


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Some women are born drama queens... And the men in their lives enjoy playing the good guy role. I love it when my (usually female :lol: ) interns freak out when they find out the complexity of what they're dealing ("it's only a TOASTER OVEN, doctor J, not a nukular reactor") but properly vectored, this emotion based fear can be put into great use...

Same with my older girl. Major drama galore when she gets the WRONG studio professor. But a great teaching moment when they learn that life is like that... Again, properly vectored, this emotion based fear or drama can be put into great use...

What makes spousal drama different than intern drama or parental drama?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> That's right.... We can freak out over - or enjoy  - the video but without understanding its root cause we can't even begin to think of an answer.
> 
> Posting the video was very bad taste but I would wager the woman in the video acts this way in real life give or take. Not raging screams but difficult to deal with, non compromising, etc.


I am not a husband. But I am a mom. Maybe I am seeing this as a mom.

The woman is going through nicotine withdrawal, and mentions an anxiety attack coming on. She mentions he would not sit down and talk with her about budgeting, and I got the impression he had told her they were going to the lake for the day. 

I also get the feeling there is a power imbalance, and not a healthy one, freely embraced by both of them, in the marriage.

I think she was set up to fail. And I don't think he is looking beyond her behavior at all. 

The way I see it, he is trying to control her. And I just don't see how that is going to bring happiness to either one of them. And she obviously, physically, is not responding well to it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I asked dh about this. He said he takes _me_ seriously. He said he doesn't take _my words_ seriously.
> 
> Again, "I hear your words, but I know your heart."
> 
> _Looking beyond the behavior, looking for the root cause . . ._


Different strokes for different folks. That would not feel caring to me at all. That would feel dismissive, like I don't know enough to know what I am saying.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Agreed. I would be willing to overlook the video if I knew it was the first instance of tantrums. But methinks it was not, hence the video...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Different strokes for different folks. That would not feel caring to me at all. That would feel dismissive, like I don't know enough to know what I am saying.



We dismiss tons of words from our loved ones. That's how the brain usually operates


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> There are better ways, intellectually honest or not, to get what you want without subjecting yourself / primarily / and others into this.


I don't think that the tantrum was necessary or right but there was no way that woman was getting what she wanted. She had no power, no equal control. He figured he could just say no and that's that. He had no interest in anything she had to say and she wasn't important. Enough of that and it will break anyone down.

No one wants people to see them at their worst. Being in an intimate relationship with someone who will see all of you is trusting them to treat that with respect, he abused that trust IMO.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> What makes spousal drama different than intern drama or parental drama?


I think that is a great question. My own marriage does have a power imbalance to it, freely embraced by both of us. And it is at least somewhat a parental relationship, as MEM alluded to. Both dh and I enjoy it. It gives me great security, and brings him much pleasure. I think it must meet very deep needs in both of us.

Dh would never treat me the way that man did. Dh is disgusted by him.

I would not kick my legs up and jerk the seat back. But I certainly raise my voice when I am angry, and use bad words. I have also called names, more than once. 

Dh does not freak out. His male pride is not threatened. He knows his wife. He knows she gets angry. And he knows that by listening to her, really listening, he can calm her down. And when it is all over, she will feel bad and apologize, and probably do more than that to make it up to him.

She doesn't really want to behave that way. But she wants him to see that she really is upset. Apparently nothing else has worked to get his attention.

And he takes responsibility for that. He knows he could listen better. And he tries. But he fails, too. 

Maybe he is busy at work. Maybe she wants his attention when he wants to watch a movie. Maybe he just doesn't think what she is worried about is any big deal. But he realizes if it is a big deal to her, it will be resolved faster if he listens.

We all have issues in our marriages, and mine is no different. I am pretty transparent about them. That is how we can learn, and how we can help others learn.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Agreed. I would be willing to overlook the video if I knew it was the first instance of tantrums. But methinks it was not, hence the video...


He did not make this video because he felt threatened. Or maybe his pride felt threatened. He was not physically at risk from her.

Isn't that why people film police beatings and the like? They are trying to expose people who could truly hurt them. They don't have any other way of protecting themselves.

This husband made the video, without her permission, to show that he was right. He doesn't feel secure in himself.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Nope.
> 
> But if they chronically acted the way the woman acted, and did not seek treatment, I would not fault any man for taking any (non physical) action they thought necessary to deal with her.


I am assuming you are prepared to be treated the same by your wife. Are prepared to see yourself exposed online for your colleagues and the world to see? 

There are some important considerations. In this age of Google glass, any of us could find our personal behavior exposed for colleagues, friends and family to see. 

Are there are 2 or even 3 posters on this thread who has acted irrationally, or outrageously? Do you think that you deserve a virtual public stoning. 

If my worse behavior went public, I would be devastated, as I am sure most of you would be. There would not be much emotional room for self-reflection, personal shame and growth. 

The protection of one persons privacy is the protection of our own. If you think you will never end up in this woman's place, guess again. Public shamming, especially of women, has become common. It's stoning American style. 

Privately made sex tapes posted to porn sites by dumped men abound. I am certain there will be an uptick in secret tapping and public exposure.

We are almost at the point where no one can be trusted; not in your home or even in your bedroom.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Their generation tends to put their lives out there on social media for the world to see. He's baiting her and enjoying it but she's the one acting like an out-of-control two year old. I certainly wouldn't have put it on YouTube or anywhere else. That was something to be resolved between them. 

But what if he had said "no trip to the lake" when they were at the mall -- would she have done that in public? Or in front of their friends? Or in front of anyone but him? My guess is not. Your spouse deserves the same consideration you give to others. More, actually.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have had ample opportunity to produce far better videos of this kind with my favorite, umm, ehem, spirited spouse. Our house features a state of the art 24/7 DVR security monitor (Samsung from Costco ) in the common areas and outside so... 

Given the family court situation here as explained by a men's advocate lawyer and a couple friends who went thru the system, the video would not have swayed the court's opinion much in terms of custody so... 

But the video would be part of evidence shown in court, at which time whether on YouTube or in court it's out in the open. I do not agree with posting the video but despite the man's idiocy that does not absolve the woman from acting in that manner. 

And I will reiterate. People who act like that with their partners act like that in general. I rarely let my wife deal with things like product returns or service complaints and the like because I know it's a lost cause to ask her to act restrained.

She gave a lot of krap, for example, to the subs who were working on our house (back in her better days) so after a few complaints I devised a multi page house quality checklist. For each room there were literally several dozen checks. The subs delivered the requisite quality without being bombarded constantly with "there is a spec of paint on xxx" comments and my wife was happy. The builder and subs ended up keeping the checklist and it's still in use :rofl:

That's what a teaching moment is all about incidentally.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Openminded said:


> But what if he had said "no trip to the lake" when they were at the mall -- would she have done that in public? Or in front of their friends? Or in front of anyone but him? My guess is not. Your spouse deserves the same consideration you give to others. More, actually.


At the mall or in public she could have walked away, gotten her own smokes and went home. She was not trapped in a situation that was completely out of her control. My anxiety is 10 times worse when I feel trapped. If I can walk out to calm myself down, I do. I have actually, many years ago, jumped out of a moving car to get away from the stress (not with H). It's a much different feeling to be that much in someone else's control. 

And there are a lot of emotions that I show my spouse that I wouldn't show random mall strangers. Bad ones and good ones. If I had to put on my being in public face all the time at home with my partner I would be miserable likewise if I didn't keep anything private between the 2 of us and argued in public or posted it all on facebook for our family and friends it would be just as bad. Some stuff is kept between spouses, not because of a lack of consideration but because of the shared intimacy, trust and life together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think when a spouse has a true mental disorder, like BPD, that is just a different ballgame. It is like a healthy person feeling hungry versus a diabetic experiencing low blood sugar. Just different fields, entirely.

I guess I just believe in looking beyond the behavior. The gal was not breaking the glass in the window, or trying to scratch the guy's eyes out while he was driving. That, to me, would signal mental disorder. 

I thought she just sounded frustrated and powerless, like a small caged animal. And he played the role of sadist perfectly.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> I think when a spouse has a true mental disorder, like BPD, that is just a different ballgame. It is like a healthy person feeling hungry versus a diabetic experiencing low blood sugar. Just different fields, entirely.
> 
> I guess I just believe in looking beyond the behavior. The gal was not breaking the glass in the window, or trying to scratch the guy's eyes out while he was driving. That, to me, would signal mental disorder.
> 
> I thought she just sounded frustrated and powerless, like a small caged animal. And he played the role of sadist perfectly.


In my opinion the way she acted could show possible signs of a mental disorder or some kind of problems, probably because the only person I've only ever seen act anything like that did have a mental disorder or problems going on in their life somewhere. 
He was definitely baiting (and was doing thing to deliberately escalate the whole situation) imo but she had some troubles herself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Tiggy, how would you have liked her to respond, when she was told that he had changed their plans for the day? Considering the nicotine issue, as well, and the anxiety attack coming on, the fact she wasn't driving, etc.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> Tiggy, how would you have liked her to respond, when she was told that he had changed their plans for the day? Considering the nicotine issue, as well, and the anxiety attack coming on, the fact she wasn't driving, etc.


That's my point, if she was having a anxiety attack (while being trapped) and nicotine deficient, that's not exactly just her being 'emotional woman'. There is a lot more factors than her gender in the mix.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Most adults don't always get what they want. Not from our spouses, bosses, kids, interns, etc. But we don't go raging. 

I'm going to repeat... Don't judge unless you know this was an isolated incident - in which case the guy is an a-hole - or whether it's a repeat performance in which case the guy is a saint.

Methinks by nature of his actions that he's more saint than not. Just a personal comment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John, my friend, I totally disagree.  

And I am really happy they are getting divorced. And I am sure they are, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think I have as much belief in an individual's being able to control him or herself as others might. I think given the right conditions, even normally stable people can crack. That is why it is important not to push people beyond what they can tolerate.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am going to push the envelope even farther here.

I don't think all these rules for relationships work. I think what you really want is to find someone you are naturally compatible with. Someone you just fit hand in a glove with. There will still be some issues, but they will be small. Not one glove finger missing type issues.

I just don't think marriage was meant to be such a struggle. And I am so happy people have the option of divorce. Some marriages were just not made to be, or not to last. People should not have to suffer day after day after day.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> *I don't think I have as much belief in an individual's being able to control him or herself as others might. *


:iagree:
That's why things like cognitive therapy exist.



> I think given the right conditions, even normally stable people can crack.* That is why it is important not to push people beyond what they can tolerate.*


IMO trying to use 'logic' on someone down in that kind of state is really illogical.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> IMO trying to use 'logic' on someone down in that kind of state is really illogical.


:iagree:

And I don't think it will last.

I think it is more efficient to address the deeper needs. What is it she wants? What does he want? What compromise could they come up with that they could both feel good with?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Openminded said:


> Their generation tends to put their lives out there on social media for the world to see. He's baiting her and enjoying it but she's the one acting like an out-of-control two year old. I certainly wouldn't have put it on YouTube or anywhere else. That was something to be resolved between them.
> 
> But what if he had said "no trip to the lake" when they were at the mall -- would she have done that in public? Or in front of their friends? Or in front of anyone but him? My guess is not. Your spouse deserves the same consideration you give to others. More, actually.


No you have it twisted. A spouse deserves more consideration than stranger. A spouse knows secrets, fears and weaknesses. That makes each person more vulnerable to injury than a stranger. 

In fact, it is easier to be nice to people in a mall. It takes a few seconds to walk past them with a smile and not over them. 

It's difficult to protect vulnerabilities of someone who has the ability to make you angry in close quarters. Do you use your knowledge to crush them or fight fair? 

Can you expect to feel safe and accepted in a loving relationship and, at the same time, accept the circumstances surrounding this video? 

He took what he knew about her from the intimacy of their relationship and used it against her. Not only that, he invited the judgement of strangers. 

There are many members of TAM who should understand the basic underlying problem in the circumstances surrounding the video. Some of them are posting on this thread.

They are profoundly lonely because they can't trust their spouse to know their faults and not broadcast them or hold it against them. Their spouse is too busy being nice to strangers. Yet they are sadly blinded to the real dynamics in the video. 

She is a troubled person. The 2yr old characterization is an easy way to trivialize and make her insignificant. She is at least human. Her ex is a reptile now and will remain so in all of his relationships.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Most adults don't always get what they want. Not from our spouses, bosses, kids, interns, etc. But we don't go raging.
> 
> I'm going to repeat... Don't judge unless you know this was an isolated incident - in which case the guy is an a-hole - or whether it's a repeat performance in which case the guy is a saint.
> 
> Methinks by nature of his actions that he's more saint than not. Just a personal comment.


What makes you so sure that he is the saint? Come on John, you're the scientist and the observer of human behavior. You said so yourself. Put on your science cap.tr

He set things up, he orchestrated the action, he was sure of the outcome because he knew she was vulnerable. 

Have you read Steven King's book "Needful Things"? It touches on the issue of manipulation by a cold-blooded snake. Given the right provocation, which of us are saints?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> John, my friend, I totally disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am really happy they are getting divorced. And I am sure they are, too.



This suggests it was a recurrent theme, no?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> This suggests it was a recurrent theme, no?


That he video taped it? Probably.

I don't think he can handle her, john. Well, I guess that is clear. She needs to be with someone who does not provoke her like that. And who is secure enough in himself to calm her without taking her actions personally. She is high emo and she needs someone low emo, and mature. That guy is not mature.

Honestly, considering what he was doing to her, it could have been a lot worse.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

jld said:


> That he video taped it? Probably.
> 
> I don't think he can handle her, john. Well, I guess that is clear. She needs to be with someone who does not provoke her like that. And who is secure enough in himself to calm her without taking her actions personally. She is high emo and she needs someone low emo, and mature. That guy is not mature.
> 
> Honestly, considering what he was doing to her, it could have been a lot worse.


Looking at it from a different angle,
Suppose they just aren't matched?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I haven't watched the video but I can guess that it must be a very sad situation to watch. It is really a shame that people have to treat each other that way, especially married people! 

John...do you see yourself at all in the husband? You describe your wife like her, but are you also a provoker? Honest question, and not asking because I think you are. (and again, I didn't actually watch the video, it sounds too scary)


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Here's the link jld https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvi4Bsv_mWY&feature=youtu.be.


She's like a spoilt 5 year old.

"I want to go to the lake.... !"

Did he get rid? Plenty of normal women out there, no need to waste time with this loon.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I have to head out on a 6 hour car ride right now. The boys and I are going to spend the weekend with dh and dd. I may be able to post from my phone, but coverage is spotty. Dh will be watching the thread, though.

It's interesting to hear people's perspectives. John, if you have time today, would you mind explaining why you think he would be a saint if he has experienced this more than once. I am just not seeing saint here, not in his character.

See you all later! 

Okay, CM, I just saw your post. No, I don't think they are a good match at all. She seems nice. She is trying to explain in the video why she could not do what he asked, about the tires, and he just mocks her. She says how sad she is not to go to the lake, when it was their (only?) day to go there. She seems like she loves him. I don't know why she does, but that is the impression I have.

I wonder if maybe her parents had been telling her he was bad, but she was blinded by love. If she filed the next day, the message finally got through.

Again, I think divorce can truly be a blessing when the match is not right.

Okay, shutting off now! Have a good afternoon, everyone!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> Most adults don't always get what they want. Not from our spouses, bosses, kids, interns, etc. But we don't go raging.
> 
> I'm going to repeat... Don't judge unless you know this was an isolated incident - in which case the guy is an a-hole - or whether it's a repeat performance in which case the guy is a saint.
> 
> Methinks by nature of his actions that he's more saint than not. Just a personal comment.


I actually think if this was a one time thing (she didn't get what she wanted 1 time so she threw a fit) would be worse. If she does this often that would also mean _he _does that often. How many times did it take where she spoke calmly and tried to express herself before she started throwing fits? How many times was she just told no and just expected to deal and be happy? She didn't handle it right and probably has issues she needs to work on regardless but there was nothing saint like about his behavior either. 

Let's say she did just say "No, we aren't getting your tires done, we're going to the lake" and put her foot down and made him go. Let's say that happens a lot, he says "I want..." and she gets to decide yes or no, it's all in her control and she has the final say. Would you feel a woman was a saint for sitting there laughing about her husband being upset for never getting his way? For belittling him and taking full control and refusing to even take him home? For purposefully humiliating him in front of his family and friends? 

It's not about always getting what you want, it's not that simple. She didn't throw a fit because it rained so they couldn't go to the lake and she didn't get what she wanted. People should have equal say with their spouse (different than parents and employers) which means their wants are _just as _important and they have a good balance of each getting what they want and compromising together. 
When people don't feel equal, getting what you want is the surface issue. Not being respected, heard, and not being treated like your wants and feelings are valid is the emotion behind it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Finally saw the video.

1. Dumb ass shouldda stopped for cigs immediately and her ability to regulate her emotions would have been drastically improved!

2. Nicotine withdraw not only affects the ability to regulate emotions but concentrate. She was all over the place about what was upsetting her.

3. As she tries to calm herself, by texting and venting to someone with whom she will feel is listened to her, dumb ass husband makes fun of her and takes a cheap shot by invalidating how she feels...wait for it....invalidated!

4. Video shows a deeply ingrained pattern of piss poor communication skills. This relationship has no balance. It's all about who wins and who doesn't win.

Growing up I hear the fights and arguments from my parents, my father always tried to stick to the issue at hand and my mother was unable to beat his logic. She wanted what she wanted but because she didn't feel listened to and my father was so much smarter, she had only her emotional reactions to fire back with. So many times I heard her say, "No I'm right this time! You're wrong and I'm right this time! This time I'm right!"

If you approach marital conflict with a mindset of who is right and who is wrong, nothing will ever be solved.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Intimacy is equal parts gift and responsibility. This is why I think restraint is so important especially during conflict. 



Catherine602 said:


> No you have it twisted. A spouse deserves more consideration than stranger. A spouse knows secrets, fears and weaknesses. That makes each person more vulnerable to injury than a stranger.
> 
> In fact, it is easier to be nice to people in a mall. It takes a few seconds to walk past them with a smile and not over them.
> 
> ...


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> *Intimacy is equal parts gift and responsibility. *This is why I think restraint is so important especially during conflict.


:iagree:

This discussion had me thinking.
I can see both perspectives, but I lean more to yours based on what you just mentioned about intimacy.

I guess what you are saying is that intimacy presupposes that we are responsible enough to have a measure of control over our emotions during conflicts.

Is that accurate?

[I think that's what French Fry partly alluded to in her last two posts yesterday.]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

As long as the goal isn't beating your partner, I think that right and wrong have a place in marital conversations. Because ultimately many discussions are centered around actual decisions which have tangible impacts. 

For example: One spouse wants X to happen and their partner wants the opposite. Once it becomes a contest of strength, of positional importance, it has become a lose lose. 

You can use other words if you like but if you feel unfairly treated over the long run the heart of the marriage, the spirit of it dies. You might remain physically co-located, and might even continue some mechanical interaction, but that's it. 




Anon Pink said:


> Finally saw the video.
> 
> 1. Dumb ass shouldda stopped for cigs immediately and her ability to regulate her emotions would have been drastically improved!
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. 

For instance - the youtube video I linked to from Nashville. This is why the daughter avoids her mother. 

I understand why the mother feels rage. And feel sorry for her. But the last thing I'm going to do when I feel rage: is speak

Speaking in such a state is akin to a MC conducting sessions while drunk. Not buzzed, but actually drunk. 

But that fury is chemical. It's as brief as it is intense. Once it's gone you can actually speak to what happened - without the toxic style seen in that clip. 





Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> This discussion had me thinking.
> I can see both perspectives, but I lean more to yours based on what you just mentioned about intimacy.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CM,
I do want to emphasize one thing. This isn't about the intensity of emotion. It's about the hostility quotient. You can be calm and controlled while shredding a spouse. 

Equally you can be totally melting down without being hostile. 

Me personally - I'm just not designed to absorb a lot of hostility. I'm ok with intense emotion. 

I guess everybody is different in this regard. 


QUOTE=Caribbean Man;8303273]:iagree:

This discussion had me thinking.
I can see both perspectives, but I lean more to yours based on what you just mentioned about intimacy.

I guess what you are saying is that intimacy presupposes that we are responsible enough to have a measure of control over our emotions during conflicts.

Is that accurate?

[I think that's what French Fry partly alluded to in her last two posts yesterday.][/QUOTE]


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My inner scientist thinks this behavior was way too frequent in order for the man to have responded in the depicted way. Most 20somethings with no exposure to such tantrums would have been shaken themselves pretty badly, pulled over, tried to talk sense, not casually film.

I just had a refresher training on this today. Me and wifey drove to Costco in my beloved Mini S. She always criticizes my driving, likely because driving or riding in the Mini is a different experience from her pseudo SUV (X3). So I'm waiting in a line 5 and 6 deep, 8 rows, to fill up with gasoline and a Harley jumps out the opposite way and cuts thru all lanes at high speed. We all stopped to prevent him from meeting his maker prematurely. Wifey thought it was MY fault and started her own version of the video unprovoked. I'm guessing because I was not being very talkative or responsive, gee, wonder why. After a while she stopped and we drove home.


So, it's not just my scientific opinion but more of the "been there done that" personal experience. She hasn't had a blowout like that in a while so...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> John...do you see yourself at all in the husband? You describe your wife like her, but are you also a provoker? Honest question, and not asking because I think you are. (and again, I didn't actually watch the video, it sounds too scary)



In the past I did provoke her on occasion largely as part of collecting data in what makes her tick, or to determine progress. The sacrifices we scientists do 

She does not rage much these days (today's was the first in months) but every rage does reveal some interest facts or evidence. Today's was no exception.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> That he video taped it? Probably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They can't handle each other, that's clear. She'll latch on some unfortunate and unsuspecting guy, improve for a while, then back to raging. He'll meet up with some low conflict passive aggressive type and end up raging himself.

No winners definitely.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I have to head out on a 6 hour car ride right now. The boys and I are going to spend the weekend with dh and dd. I may be able to post from my phone, but coverage is spotty. Dh will be watching the thread, though.
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting to hear people's perspectives. John, if you have time today, would you mind explaining why you think he would be a saint if he has experienced this more than once. I am just not seeing saint here, not in his character.



What? Can't text and drive? What an excuse!! And spotty cell coverage - you must have T-mobile...  

If they're 20somethings without kids it would be way too easy for him to walk. If he's seen it before and did not drag her into the nearest emergency room... If he put up with her for a while... 

Methinks it may have been a last minute Hail Mary on his behalf to show her what image she projects to him and to the world. Granted, not done well, and likely she was provoked, but all this in my opinion simply suggests he was not in it for the ride.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> CM,
> I do want to emphasize one thing. This isn't about the intensity of emotion. It's about the hostility quotient. You can be calm and controlled while shredding a spouse.
> 
> Equally you can be totally melting down without being hostile.
> ...



I think I get where you're coming from.

But I'm still trying to rationalize what you're saying with my mental terms of reference.

I have never dealt with such extremes in my wife, most of what she expresses, I consider " normal" and sometimes justified , based on what caused it.

You said this isn't about the emotions , because we all have emotions and yes, at times any emotion can be intense , even fear.
I get that.
What I want to know more about is the hostility.

Where do you suppose that comes from?

I know it ranges from simple tantrums to what is shown in the vid, and my assumption is that the entire spectrum can't all be bad. How does a partner determine what is toxic from what is " normal" reaction in a relationship?

Why do so many people choose hostility over rational thinking?
And why does it seem that some females are more prone to express the intensity of their emotion in this manner?

Is it something learned or is nature?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nature and mental state - or lack thereof - 

My younger girl is the drama queen and has been so since birth. My younger is the ice queen and has also been so since birth.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Caribbean Man said:


> Why do so many people choose hostility over rational thinking?
> And why does it seem that some females are more prone to express the intensity of their emotion in this manner?


CM, the only reason she acted that way was because she cannot get through her husband. Was she right to have a tantrum like this, probably not, but she feels powerless. Her husband knows it and feels he is in the right and she is wrong.

He is just a selfish immature guy more worried about his looks and his truck than his wife.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> In my marriage, lack of control destroys intimacy--and we would probably look a lot like that couple gender-swapped. So, yes. Tantrums literally shut me down and in shut down mode, no communication happens until I can reboot myself.
> 
> I'm usually a woman defender, but I really do empathize with the man in this video. The laughter and the incredulity are exactly how I react when my husband goes off the farm. It's not baiting, it's frustration at being unable to talk to a person and get one problem solved at a time.
> 
> So, no. Just an overall bad dynamic. I don't think it would have been unsurmountable to overcome, but the woman would have to learn that that kind of expression shuts her husband down and her husband would have to learn how to try and stay engaged in the face of intense emotion.


I was hoping you answered, lol.

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense.

Everybody relationship has it's own dynamic.

Can you respond to my question the origin of the hostility, to MEM @ post # 248?


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> John why don't you just let her drive?


Would it not be safer to have the steering wheel firmly in *your * hands when you're riding with someone who's going crackers?


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> CM, the only reason she acted that way was because she cannot get through her husband. Was she right to have a tantrum like this, probably not, but she feels powerless. Her husband knows it and feels he is in the right and she is wrong.
> 
> He is just a selfish immature guy more worried about his looks and his truck than his wife.


I understand what you are saying and I also agree with most of it.

I think that both of them were wrong .

Lol,

I guess that I can see both perspectives, but from a logical viewpoint, i think ultimately , we are responsible for our actions.

But I assume that you are thinking he has the greater responsibility, and I feel the same way, on a visceral level.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Sandfly said:


> Would it not be safer to have the steering wheel firmly in *your * hands when you're riding with someone who's going crackers?
> 
> 
> View attachment 21769



:rofl:

The Mini needed gas besides she's a lousy driver. She can drive a stick thankfully..


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Caribbean Man said:


> I understand what you are saying and I also agree with most of it.
> 
> I think that both of them were wrong .
> 
> ...


Of course he has the greater responsibility. He seems to control everything anyway, the money, the time, what they do... That comes with responsibility.


----------



## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> :rofl:
> 
> The Mini needed gas besides she's a lousy driver. She can drive a stick thankfully..


John, I always hear from guys that women are lousy drivers. But the insurance statistics show the opposite, women have fewer accidents.

Of course, you must be the exception


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> Of course he has the greater responsibility. He seems to control everything anyway, the money, the time, what they do... That comes with responsibility.



That^^^ was my terms of reference earlier when I said maybe they are just not suited for each other.

However, lets suppose that the power was shared equally between them , and she had some control in the relationship, we could safely assume that things might not have escalated to that level of hostility.

But based on what some on this thread are saying, that isn't always the case.

Should these men whose wives have some empowerment in the relationship also bear the greater responsibility if their wives respond in the same manner? 

Also, can that man choosing to leave the room until she calms down, be considered as taking the moral responsibility in the situation where power is evenly shared and her emotional response is nearing volatile?

I'm just wondering if there might be merit in both methods , but it might be relative to each individual's situation.


----------



## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

Last post was excellent, FF.

We don't start off with much self-control as boys... boys cry when they get stung by a wasp, and play sit-down protest in the supermarket just like the little girls do.

"healthy men figure out work arounds besides getting to that highly emotional state--and get a lot of practice doing so."

Yeah the difference is, that when my sister acted up, she was thought 'cute', when I acted up, I got chased with a fireplace poker, a cane or got a boot up the bottom p) If I cried, I was told I was a little girl !

Thank God for all that though, for now IRL people think I am unflappable, and that confident exterior blinds them to an awful lot of incompetence


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I think, and I see it in this thread, that a lot of people operate on the basis that a woman's highly emotional state will never be as powerful as a man's highly emotional state. Women get the green light to get to that state while men do not. So, healthy men figure out work arounds besides getting to that highly emotional state--and get a lot of practice doing so.
> 
> Men who show hostility often provoke fear. Women's hostility rarely does, even in cases when it should.
> 
> I thought about this last night, if the video was swapped with the dude going off and the woman filming. The discussion would be totally different because we (society) react to male frustration differently. I'd still see it the same way, with added empathy for the incredulous woman (because I've been that incredulous woman) but I'm not 100% sure that the guy would receive the same empathy as his lady counterpart.


Personally for me it really isn't gender specific.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> John, I always hear from guys that women are lousy drivers. But the insurance statistics show the opposite, women have fewer accidents.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, you must be the exception



A few years ago I was working on a project involving a device that would be used while driving. So we rented time in a devilishly expensive simulator that's basically a car on articulated pneumatic supports that could quite realistically project the road ahead, behind, windows, mirrors, etcetera on flat screens. I ran about 40 people thru baseline driving tests then tests driving and using our device in normal conditions, then added hazards (deer, pedestrians, dragons, trees, etc - the thing would let you design the road and such events.

Let's just say based on the tons of data my team collected (reaction times, wheel play, braking... ) there were differences that were gender specific. Also differences that were age specific and ethnicity specific  with one individual marked "clear and present danger" to himself and others.

I won't start flame feet by identifying who is who


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> .
> 
> * Women's hostility rarely does, even in cases when it should.*


Lol,

Not MY wife!

She very rarely gets mad, but when she does it is literally World War III!
And she has always been a physically fit woman...

Thank goodness , in all of our years together I've seen he really mad about twice.

The last time she got mad , about 17 years ago. We decided to head to MC , sign a peace treaty and it seems to have worked well.
In hindsight , back then we were_ both_ angry, not to mention naive.
But since then , it has never escalated to that level of hostility like in the vid.


.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And that's why most people can't begin to comprehend what it looks like to be married to such a person. 

Hence, passing judgments in such cases is harder than it is for us battle scared veterans who yawn at such display of hostilities.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> John, I always hear from guys that women are lousy drivers. But the insurance statistics show the opposite, women have fewer accidents.
> 
> Of course, you must be the exception


Statistically, women get into more accidents per capita, but since women drive far fewer miles than men, they get into fewer total accidents, therefore causing fewer insurance payouts. Also, women are more likely to get into a few minor fender-benders, whereas young men are more likely to drive too fast coming home from a party at 4AM and flip over the car with all their friends in it.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Caribbean Man said:


> That^^^ was my terms of reference earlier when I said maybe they are just not suited for each other.
> 
> However, lets suppose that the power was shared equally between them , and she had some control in the relationship, we could safely assume that things might not have escalated to that level of hostility.
> 
> ...


How can power be equally shared? Men and women are different. I have much more physical power than my wife. She has more power of persuasion than me. I lead on financial matters but any financial decision we make is greatly influenced by her.

We have equal rights but we are not equal. Here I do not mean that I am somehow better than she is, we are just different. I have a hard time understanding this sharing the power concept.

So yes, men bear greater responsibilities in those situation regardless if the women has more or less power in the relationship.


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## Sandfly (Dec 8, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> Our healthy manners, for both genders, look remarkably similar.


You're on a roll today, FF, with the perception. 

Better buy a lottery ticket! 

In regards to the fear, once you have a fight-y kind of childhood, you don't have a fear of other people anymore, just a wariness of large groups.

This is why I must always defend the little bit of physical punishment in childhood - though I didn't like it at the time.

It made me able to control my tantrums, and eventually, seeing how non-tantrum negotiation/submission/confrontation options worked so much better, the tantrum reflex withered away by itself from disuse and pointlessness.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Catherine602 said:


> No you have it twisted. A spouse deserves more consideration than stranger. A spouse knows secrets, fears and weaknesses. That makes each person more vulnerable to injury than a stranger.
> 
> In fact, it is easier to be nice to people in a mall. It takes a few seconds to walk past them with a smile and not over them.
> 
> ...


I believe I said "more actually" as the last words of my post. I see them equally at fault. If he couldn't cope with her behavior, he should have obviously handled it differently rather than putting that video on YouTube. 

It's possible he was the only one in her life ever to push her to the brink. Or that scene may have been a common occurrence. I don't know. I'm speculating. As are you with your "reptile" comment. I stand by my comment -- she acted like out an out-of-control two year old. The question is does she always. We don't know.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

CM,
M2 is a study in contrasts. I've never known anyone else to be kinder, more patient or more generous with babies/young children and also old people. This is a genuine and hard wired response. 
And this is not limited to family members. 

I do know that most of our worst conflict has been related to her not getting her way. As to why that causes a quiet rage that she channels into intentional hostility - don't know. 

I do not believe that I have encouraged this type behavior. Because it does not produce the result she wants. I only dig in on stuff that I am literally willing to get divorced over. So the hostility makes me feel sad and tired and angry. But it doesn't change my willingness to do/not do something. 

Her mother died a year before we met, but from everything I've heard her mother was like this and her father just hung in there like the good catholic he was. 

Here's the main difference between us. When I'm full throttle furious I choose to isolate myself. Because in that state I DO want to hurt the object of my fury. When she's furious, she very much wants to hurt the other person. And she stays angry WAY longer than I do. 




Caribbean Man said:


> I think I get where you're coming from.
> 
> But I'm still trying to rationalize what you're saying with my mental terms of reference.
> 
> ...


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

FrenchFry said:


> . Like the women in this post who empathize with the woman on whatever level, their partners probably are okay with that level of emotion. I don't think my husband would be and would have bailed on me in about the same time frame that the guy bailed on that woman in the video.


Oh I'd get kicked the heck out of the car and made to walk my ass home I'm sure, be lucky if he waited until the car was stopped to do it. I empathize with her but he would not be ok with it. I react differently but I have still had some bad moments. 

I see more men acting out by doing stuff like punching holes in the wall and being aggressive rather than crying and whining about it. Both are bad emotional responses, just different ways to express it. 

If a male was having an emotional response that didn't involve abuse or aggression then it would be no different than hers (and if she was abusive I would not have empathy) 

I watched this about a month ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cWWj6yMFXo (just watch from about 3:40 to about 4:33) and I can empathize with him too, even though he is being aggressive- leave the guy the F alone. He just woke up after 4 hours of sleep, he wants his coffee and if you are really so afraid of him you wouldn't be pushing him and taping him when you know he is upset. Even Dr. Phil said he told you to leave him alone how many times? Why didn't you just drop it? (interesting episode in general regarding the topic of 2 people who are just toxic together)


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> At the mall or in public she could have walked away, gotten her own smokes and went home. She was not trapped in a situation that was completely out of her control. My anxiety is 10 times worse when I feel trapped. If I can walk out to calm myself down, I do. I have actually, many years ago, jumped out of a moving car to get away from the stress (not with H). It's a much different feeling to be that much in someone else's control.
> 
> And there are a lot of emotions that I show my spouse that I wouldn't show random mall strangers. Bad ones and good ones. If I had to put on my being in public face all the time at home with my partner I would be miserable likewise if I didn't keep anything private between the 2 of us and argued in public or posted it all on facebook for our family and friends it would be just as bad. Some stuff is kept between spouses, not because of a lack of consideration but because of the shared intimacy, trust and life together.


I don't support of "rightness" of bad behavior no matter who it is. Relationships are difficult. Very difficult for many of us. That doesn't excuse her behavior or his behavior. They are equally to blame in my opinion.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

john117 said:


> And that's why most people can't begin to comprehend what it looks like to be married to such a person.
> 
> Hence, passing judgments in such cases is harder than it is for us battle scared veterans who yawn at such display of hostilities.


Your wife is from a much different culture, John. I personally would not tolerate her behavior. I grew up in the South at a time when good manners were considered crucial to life. At least by my mother. Certainly there were conflicts -- especially between the two of us -- but I was expected to make my case in a logical fashion and without tantrums. I may not have started out with a lot of self control but I learned it. I never mastered it as well as my mother did but I always hear her voice when I'm tempted to treat others in a way she wouldn't like. Your wife didn't learn that or didn't care or both.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Culture is not an excuse. I come from a culture that's generally considered as "spirited" but I'm the exception.

Tolerance is different. I can't stand the Midwest weather yet I'm still here. There's a reason. Same here. She has her usefulness in the grand scheme of things, and to be straight, when we split it will be purely for financial and practical considerations, not because she's cuckoo. 

I could be married to a bubbly blonde that never raised her voice and given the other considerations she would also be voted off the island so to speak. 

Never throw into the decision how you feel about a person when the decision can be made purely on practical considerations.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

john117 said:


> Culture is not an excuse. I come from a culture that's generally considered as "spirited" but I'm the exception.
> 
> Tolerance is different. I can't stand the Midwest weather yet I'm still here. There's a reason. Same here. She has her usefulness in the grand scheme of things, and to be straight, when we split it will be purely for financial and practical considerations, not because she's cuckoo.
> 
> ...


I am sorry John. 

Reading over my posts I realize they are judgmental. Betrayal of women is one of my hot spots. There is no reason to take my problems out on you. You are not abandoning you wife. In fact, you are sacrificing to stay for your two girls. 

I've got my problems that you and many others would find it hard not to judge. You are braver than I am to reveal so much of yourself. 

I don't understand this post though. I thought that you wanted to get away because your wife made you so miserable.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

We are products of our childhood. You can see examples of it all around you.

E.g. the young girl who grows up with a father with an explosive temper and has one herself, or her sister who avoids arguments and will mentally or physically remove herself from one if it starts, just like her mother.

I see people who cannot express their anger and others who become so enmeshed in it as to crowd out all ability to think rationally.

Another example I've seen:
A person who cannot express their anger may seek to marry someone who appears can express it and so perpetuates the cycle they grew up watching. These people don't understand this about themselves however and continue to act in the same way they've always acted in order to protect themselves, which is to withdraw. They may justify their actions in their head by thinking themselves the 'calm/sane/mature' one who simply cannot abide by a person who cannot control themselves. They seek out the person who will cause the same distress they felt in childhood and have the chance with this person to heal themselves, but if they do not challenge themselves to act outside of their comfort zone (ie. staying with the angry person rather than running away), they will never grow beyond this limitation, nor will they assist their partner to grow beyond theirs.

I see people talk about others as if once you hit early adulthood you should have full control of yourself and your emotions. Unfortunately it usually takes a great deal more time than that for many, and it also takes a partner who will help you grow rather than continue to inflict the same childhood wounds. We do not simply grow from child to adult in one fifth of our lifespan and enjoy the rest of our lives as these wonderfully stable and wise human beings. We spend our entire lives learning and growing.

Yes adults will have tantrums. Having emotions you cannot distance yourself from nor understand and control is not merely a childhood phase, it's a lifelong journey. Even those who 'control' their anger do not truly understand what it is they are doing. Are they really just trying to suppress it as they saw their mother/father do when they were children? Are they afraid to express it? Is it that they don't know how to feel anger without being consumed by it? Maybe their anger is actually controlling them as they walk out the door with their partner desperately trying to reach them but failing.

If your instinct is to scream and rage, or to leave, it is that instinct you need to challenge in order to grow. Think for one second that maybe your way isn't the right way. Getting through to those who feel superior through being able to 'control' their emotions is harder I feel, as it's so easy to point the finger at the person who is expressing their emotion rather than hiding it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

john117 said:


> Culture is not an excuse. I come from a culture that's generally considered as "spirited" but I'm the exception.
> 
> Tolerance is different. I can't stand the Midwest weather yet I'm still here. There's a reason. Same here. She has her usefulness in the grand scheme of things, and to be straight, when we split it will be purely for financial and practical considerations, not because she's cuckoo.
> 
> ...


People remain in marriages for all sorts of reasons. We all have different levels of what we can tolerate. Only you will know if or when it's time for you to go.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Not that long ago I saw a person priding themselves on their 'silent anger'. They claimed that while a person was raging at them they would get angrier but quieter and the other person would have no idea how angry they were. They would speak calmly and rationally while the other person was out of control.

First hand I saw this person in action. They would hold onto that anger over every little disagreement/misunderstanding and hold it close, never speaking about it or clearing the air, never expressing it. One day something would happen and they would 'assert themselves' in their mind, but to the other person it would be an extremely nasty and vicious attack and the reaction seemed way out of proportion to what had happened, while never getting high in volume of course. Then the rest of it would spew forth, every last perceived offence.

This is an example of someone who believes themselves 'mature', someone who 'controls' their anger and who feels superior. Do you think they are superior?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The key is to not get angry. If they're a bit under the mental weather, so to speak..... No point getting angry.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

john117 said:


> The key is to not get angry. If they're a bit under the mental weather, so to speak..... No point getting angry.


What are emotions exactly that we have such an easy choice as to whether we will feel them or not?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

breeze said:


> What are emotions exactly that we have such an easy choice as to whether we will feel them or not?



We have control. Believe me, we do. We can choose to act irrationally or we can think orthogonally and rationally. Not block them, but merely consider them like anything else.

My father was career Army for 30 years. He was superb in keeping his emotions in check. He was caring, loving, etc. but always solid and never appeared emotional. 

Never let his emotions get ahead of orthogonal military thinking. A stark contrast to my mom who was an emotional firecracker. But they never had arguments, never. They collaborated well, the seasoned veteran and his bureaucrat wife. 

Dad taught me the art of reading people and Mom taught me to help people (she was a disaster relief manager). 

When I told them I wanted to study psychology (a thoroughly useless major back then) they did not object or throw fits. When I started working here before I even told them I am staying they told me to stay here. They did not let their emotions get in my way. They visited every year or two for a month or three  and always put my well being and career success over their desire to see me more often. 

They made their marriage work despite WW2, natural disasters, no money, health, and everything else life threw at them. They were a curious mix of supercharged emotions and rational thinking yet they made it work. 

To this day I'm amazed they did.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, john, I think back then, people were just more committed to their marriages. They probably had to be.

Look at what your parents went through -- a world war, communism, little money, health problems (is that right?) -- they could not worry about the little, annoying things in a marriage. They were probably trying to survive.

Have you read The Shelter of Each Other? The author talks about how much more difficult life used to be, and how much lower people's expectations of marriage were. It's something to think about.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> If you approach marital conflict with a mindset of who is right and who is wrong, nothing will ever be solved.


:iagree:


----------



## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

john117 said:


> We have control. Believe me, we do. We can choose to act irrationally or we can think orthogonally and rationally. Not block them, but merely consider them like anything else.


Indeed, we do have the ability to feel emotion and yet behave rationally. The problem is that many are not taught this ability, nor realise they need to learn it. Even those who believe they are thinking rationally while another isn't are sometimes deluding themselves. The video linked earlier is a perfect example. I find the man's behaviour is not rational. What was his purpose? How did his actions achieve a desired outcome? He may have seemed more calm and in control than his wife, but he overall appears less rational in his actions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> What? Can't text and drive? What an excuse!! And spotty cell coverage - you must have T-mobile...
> 
> If they're 20somethings without kids it would be way too easy for him to walk. If he's seen it before and did not drag her into the nearest emergency room... If he put up with her for a while...
> 
> Methinks it may have been a last minute Hail Mary on his behalf to show her what image she projects to him and to the world. Granted, not done well, and likely she was provoked, but all this in my opinion simply suggests he was not in it for the ride.


Lol, I do have T-mobile. It is the cheapest service, but it is still $50 a month. 

I don't know why they ever got married. That is why I said I think she must have been blinded by love, because I just can't see any reason to be with that guy. I just don't find one thing, not one thing, appealing about him.

And what is interesting about this discussion is that you have men and women on both sides of the issue, not a clear split.

I think someone said she is a nurse with a master's degree. That is good. She can support herself.

Since watching this video this morning, I have been thinking about how important the worldwide campaign to educate women and girls, and to encourage them to own their own businesses, is. With an education, and the means of supporting themselves, they do not have to accept this treatment. They can be alone, and be able to manage.

I know there has been some distress about women earning more money than men, and having more education, but I am wondering if that will turn out to actually be very good. For the first time in history, women will be able to truly be free. Relationships can be voluntary. 

It really is going to be interesting to see how this economic empowerment plays out.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

jld said:


> He did not make this video because he felt threatened. Or maybe his pride felt threatened. He was not physically at risk from her.
> 
> Isn't that why people film police beatings and the like? They are trying to expose people who could truly hurt them. They don't have any other way of protecting themselves.
> 
> This husband made the video, without her permission, to show that he was right. He doesn't feel secure in himself.


Hmmmm... interesting analogy between police beatings and wives throwing tantrums (the hostile variety that is). 

Both the wives and the officers know it's not the politically correct thing to do, but hey, somehow they feel intitled to...

Because it feels easier than handling the situation correctly?

Because nothing else seems to work?

Because the object of their anger will think twice in the future before not responding in the desired manner?

Because it gives them the illusion of strenght over the other?

Because they think they can get away with it


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

Sandfly said:


> Yes, I can't defend about 60% of young men because:
> 
> -They're idiots who clown around to impress.
> -They drink too much.
> ...


yeah you nailed it, but I suspect at the expense of all too personal experience; which suggests acting as they did was productive.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EasyPartner said:


> Hmmmm... interesting analogy between police beatings and wives throwing tantrums (the hostile variety that is).
> 
> No, I don't think you understood.
> 
> ...


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am thinking a lot about Catherine's comment on women shaming, which is an excellent point, and certainly worthy of its own thread.

Even the title of this video predisposes people to prejudice against the woman.

I propose, instead: * Sadist Tortures Nicotine-Deprived Woman in Moving Vehicle, Delights in Her Screams*.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> I am thinking a lot about Catherine's comment on women shaming, which is an excellent point, and certainly worthy of its own thread.
> 
> Even the title of this video predisposes people to prejudice against the woman.
> 
> I propose, instead: * Sadist Tortures Nicotine-Deprived Woman in Moving Vehicle, Delights in Her Screams*.


So ... if you have an excuse the behavior is ok?

I submit that the genders simply are never going to see eye to eye on this subject, or the video.

Some of the women see an allegedly abused 'victim' of manipulation. Onus for the behavior points to the man.

The men, myself amongst them, see a shrieking lunatic, with whom there is absolutely no point in taking seriously or trying to reason with. I don't. And I wouldn't. 
If you think that makes us weak, that is absolutely your prerogative.

My 8 year old can emotionally regulate better than that woman.

Don't like the way he handled it all. It was apparent that he was baiting her as he was recording it. Left a bad taste in my mouth. But I have no doubt that her behavior was par for the course. 

"You do this whenever you don't get your way."

"Because I never get my way!!"

Classic parent/child relationship, and no marriage should EVER operate in such a dynamic. They have both fed into the dynamic. Doesn't change a whit that she owns her behavior and responses, and she is behaving and responding very, very, poorly.

I can safely say I'll never have to deal with anything remotely like this, because the moment I get even a mild whiff of that kind of crazy, she's gone. Other kinds of crazy I actually relish in.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I can safely say I'll never have to deal with anything remotely like this, because them moment I get even a mild whiff of crazy, she's gone.


Thank goodness.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't think anyone is thinking she responded so well, I think how she dealt with that is great and should happen again. 

We can just look past the outburst to what is really going on under it. It's a far more complex situation than "wife throws tantrum" If she suddenly fixed her emotional state there would still be a massive problem. Her emotional response is not what created the problem, it is a result of it. 

If I treated my man like a child who wasn't even capable of being my equal and bossed him around like I'm his superior, telling him what he can and can't do, who's fault is it that a parent/child dynamic has occurred? 

Honestly, I do believe that if the situation was reversed and the man was having a fit like the Dr. Phil one I posted there would be more defense of him, because a woman trying to control and belittle a man is somehow looked at worse than a man doing it to his wife. Like there is still this underlying idea that our emotions are silly, irrational and a weakness so they need to take control because we can't.
ITA that the whole woman shaming thing would make an interesting conversation on it's own.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Deejo said:


> So ... if you have an excuse the behavior is ok?
> 
> I submit that the genders simply are never going to see eye to eye on this subject, or the video.
> 
> ...


What should have been a more appropriate behavior from her? To be calm, logical when he has no respect for her and does not care!

The way she acts is because she has no other way to get through to him. Her behavior can be turned off easily and quickly. His, on the other hand, is a lost cause.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sure we have enough info from the video to deduce this. Again, the very act of posting this suggests chronic issues with her. And him of course, but he's not the one who became unglued.

Now, it's sunny and 74, should I take my wife for a spirited country ride in the Mini?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

And she is not the sadistic, conniving manipulator.

And yes, you should.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

john117 said:


> I'm not sure we have enough info from the video to deduce this. Again, the very act of posting this suggests chronic issues with her. And him of course, but he's not the one who became unglued.
> 
> Now, it's sunny and 74, should I take my wife for a spirited country ride in the Mini?


Yes. Don't forget to record it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Hard measures for hard times 

If DH fits in it height wise get him a Mini S... Amazing ride even with Frigidistan Top 40 streaming on the stereo and J2 beaching about politics.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Yes. Don't forget to record it.



She's extra nice today... Wonder where the meat cleaver is


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Duguesclin said:


> What should have been a more appropriate behavior from her? To be calm, logical when he has no respect for her and does not care!
> 
> The way she acts is because she has no other way to get through to him. Her behavior can be turned off easily and quickly. His, on the other hand, is a lost cause.


I don't agree with that. Because clearly, her methodology wasn't successful.

Given the context of this exchange, meaning that we really don't have any, I think it's safe to say most people are going to project their experiences onto it, or at least their bias.

I can own that. That's why my tolerance is absolute zero. I never have and never would pursue or maintain a relationship where someone felt remotely like they either had to, or it was acceptable, to communicate with me or behave that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

And that is why it is good that you are not with her, Deejo. And never will be.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

john117 said:


> I'm not sure we have enough info from the video to deduce this. Again, the very act of posting this suggests chronic issues with her. And him of course, but he's not the one who became unglued.


So if he had any examples of her freaking out that were _not _the result of him acting like a total ass, wouldn't he have used one of those instead? I know H's buttons well enough that I could provoke him into a rage and tape it, that would not prove that his rage is a chronic problem without my provocation. 
If she does this often maybe he should look at the reasons behind it instead of laughing it off. 

What would he have to become unglued over? He knows that he is in complete control and can do whatever he wants. Like I've said before, it's easier to stay in control when you are the one with control. Let's see how he reacts when he has none.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My birthday is coming up, maybe I should ask my kids to get me a GoPro Hero 4....

View attachment 21801


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Deejo said:


> I don't agree with that. Because clearly, her methodology wasn't successful.
> 
> Given the context of this exchange, meaning that we really don't have any, I think it's safe to say most people are going to project their experiences onto it, or at least their bias.
> 
> I can own that. That's why my tolerance is absolute zero. I never have and never would pursue or maintain a relationship where someone felt remotely like they either had to, or it was acceptable, to communicate with me or behave that way.


You must be the best communicator and you do not have blind sights. I do. If someone acts like this with me, I listen and try to understand where it is coming from. I guess we are different.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Given the context of this exchange, meaning that we really don't have any, I think it's safe to say most people are going to project their experiences onto it, or at least their bias.


Yh that's very true.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

John, you stay with your wife because you want control of her money. If you would record her, and she would file tomorrow, you would lose that control. Are you willing to risk that?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> And that is why it is good that you are not with her, Deejo. And never will be.


So in line with the thread, you feel compelled to defend this woman's behavior based on the behavior alone?

Honest question, not a set up.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> So in line with the thread, you feel compelled to defend this woman's behavior based on the behavior alone?
> 
> Honest question, not a set up.


Thank you, Deejo. I think we should talk honestly, and not just trade barbs. 

I have five children, Deejo. I see many behaviors through the eyes of a mother.

I have children who are very low emo. I have kids who are high emo. 

It is so easy to calm a high emo person, Deejo. So easy. You stop what you are doing and really listen. Just really listen. You look for the root cause. Figure out the root cause, and you are halfway there.

This guy is not a good guy. She may have problems with her emotions (and let's remember, she was going through nicotine withdrawal, which I have heard is a *****), but he did not help her. Did not even try to. And let's be honest: He probably does not know how. And is not interested.

You can't just look at behavior, Deejo. Not if you want to solve problems. Like you can't just look at how pretty a woman is, when you are deciding if you want to marry her or not. 

You have to go deeper. You have to seek what is inside, what is motivating whatever behavior you see. That is what a leader does. He doesn't focus on the superficial. He says, There is a problem here, and I can solve it. And then he really looks at the issue.

He doesn't blame, Deejo. He doesn't whine. He takes responsibility. And the woman in his life, who may at times feel at the mercy of her emotions, is so grateful. He can be counted on. He can be trusted. She is safe with him.

Transparency ensues. Deep trust builds. The marriage can withstand tragedies. It is not based on the superficial.

I have to go with my family now. I appreciate your sincere interest. I should have shown that leadership myself, instead of just spouting off a one liner. I'm sorry.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Duguesclin said:


> You must be the best communicator and you do not have blind sights. I do. If someone acts like this with me, I listen and try to understand where it is coming from. I guess we are different.


My perspective is that if I do listen and tolerate THAT, then I am sending a message to my partner that THAT is an acceptable method for her to address me.

It isn't. Ever. 

Angry? Sure.
Sad, fearful, hurt? Absolutely, you get to express all of those things and you have my unwavering support. Project that anger, hurt or fear onto me and make it about me, or something I'm going to pay for as a result?

No.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. Call it projection of my own. The moment you presume what you feel, think or have to say, has more weight or value than what I feel, think, or have to say ... and importantly, that you believe you are entitled to that perspective, then you have just de-valued me and the relationship. No way am I enabling that.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> So in line with the thread, you feel compelled to defend this woman's behavior based on the behavior alone?
> 
> Honest question, not a set up.


I think most people are looking at what she is saying and what he is saying, not the tantrum. Do you hear her words? 

He refuses to help with the budget but then tells her they don't have enough money even though she says they do.
She asks to stop for smokes and he refused.
She has 1 day that week to spend with her husband and purposefully did all her errands on other days so she would be free to go to the lake together
She feels as though she never gets what she wants.

He laughs and says "I haven't done anything" 
"All over a pack of cigarettes?!" 
"All because you can't get your way"
"All because I have to do vehicle maintenance"

Every single time he missed the point and wasn't listening.

If you told your wife "I'm upset because we don't spend any time together. You are always doing your own things and I specifically planned around this so we could go out together and spend time." 

and she says "Geez husband, I didn't DO anything. I have to get my hair done today. How can you be upset about getting my hair done? You can't always get what YOU want! " 

Would you feel heard and respected?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> If you told your wife "I'm upset because we don't spend any time together. You are always doing your own things and I specifically planned around this so we could go out together and spend time."
> 
> and she says "Geez husband, I didn't DO anything. I have to get my hair done today. How can you be upset about getting my hair done? You can't always get what YOU want! "
> 
> Would you feel heard and respected?


I'd feel divorced.

We're still in the same loop. I don't care about what she says. I care what she does. And what she's doing is ridiculous. And if thats' what she has to do to be heard, then indeed they are in a toxic relationship, just as the poster that originally linked the video indicated.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

In a lot of ways, you remind of another high emo poster that is no longer with us. Her being highly emotional, got her banned. Not suggesting that is the case for you at all. 

Guess my point is that action, and behavior, have consequences. In my case, I likely did far too much trying to put myself in the shoes of another for many, many years, to feel at all compelled to enable bad behavior. Primarily because I did ... and paid for it. That balance has been reconciled. 

Enjoy your day with your family, jld.

No apologies necessary, but your grace is duly noted.



jld said:


> Thank you, Deejo. I think we should talk honestly, and not just trade barbs.
> 
> I have five children, Deejo. I see many behaviors through the eyes of a mother.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Consider both the short term and long term implications of the events depicted in the video. 

Short term her behavior is inexcusable, his behavior a lot more excusable (still not a good thing)

Long term it is a disaster for both. As it turned out to be. People should be able to handle trivial or not so trivial changes to routine. If she's a nurse she knows things are unpredictable. 

Don't look for info that isn't there. For all I know they could be married for 5 years and it just started, or married for 5 solid years of bickering, or, like me, 25 good and 5 video worthy years. 

When dealing with incomplete information don't simply assume the scenario that came to your mind first for one reason or another is the answer (familiarity heuristic).


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Both of the participants in the video did some serious damage control defending their actions with their interviews after the video created such a firestorm last year. They were both wrong. I can't imagine two adults recreating a parent/child dynamic in their relationship which is what that video says to me was their pattern. However, people do what makes them happy. Obviously, Whitney and James (the participants) were not happy. And are better apart. Who knows how long it would have taken them to figure that out without the video. Maybe they would have even had children. Terrible thought.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

No one can be forced to have engagement with someone else.

If two people are engaged in a toxic situation, they are BOTH choosing to STAY in engagement.

Therefore however crappy that engagement ends up, it was BOTH of them that knowingly contributed to it.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Deejo said:


> I'd feel divorced.
> 
> We're still in the same loop. I don't care about what she says. I care what she does. And what she's doing is ridiculous. And if thats' what she has to do to be heard, then indeed they are in a toxic relationship, just as the poster that originally linked the video indicated.


I think that's really the only divide between those who defend and those who don't. What she's doing vs. Why she's doing it. 

I do think that by that time they are toxic together. Maybe with some better communication skills they could have avoided ever getting to that point but by the time it is that damaged it's just too much resentment.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

When people turn toxic all the communication skills in the world won't save them. The key is prevention, but when the couple is too busy counting blows it's kind of hard to be mindful of long term implications.


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## EasyPartner (Apr 7, 2014)

Not trying to offend you or distort your words jld. Not talking about the clip either, but about women, or men, behaving this badly. Yes yes, throwing tantrums that is. The guy is the video is clearly an ahole, we all agree, provoking and broadcasting and all. Not the point though. He should lead and so on.

Back on topic. I don't defend either gender, only individuals sometimes.

As for power in a relationship, what I really want is an equal. I can dominate, I know this cause it's in my job description and I ve been selected for it. 

Whenever possible though, I go for the compromise. Goes further in the long run. This requires 2 things, 1 being u make a reasonable case, the other you don't go ape****. Well it's the same thing really.

I want a mature woman fgs, not another child. And neither of my children behave that way. Because I thaught them that


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I can't see how objecting to deception and invasion of privacy as defending this woman's behavior. My gender makes me see it from that angle and being male makes them insensitive to public humiliation? I can't see that either.

Bad behavior towards a partner is a private issue and it's adaptive to handle it as such. He should have done what normal people do, leave. 

Instead, he provokes her bad behavior, secretly records it and broadcast it to humiliate her. That behavior is as defendable as hers. It's not.

A defense of control of behavior, decency, respect for privacy and a little pride in being grown up enough to cope is inclusive of both their behavior. That is how I chose to look at it. 

He handles a private relationship problem by telling mommy like a little boy. "Look world, see what see is doing to me and I'm such a good man" She handles it by histrionics. 

He can't handle his own sh!t any more than she can handle hers. They are a matched set. 

When they have 2 or 3 more failed relationships maybe they will get the message. It may take him a bit more time, if ever. Too many slaps on the back rattles the brain.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Its funny, because as a woman I don't think I fall into the typical woman category that men would complain about here on TAM. 

I don't like being compared in general, and when I hear some men say, she spends all of my money and stays home being lazy (me, me, me) I wonder if woman are really that bad or did you marry a woman who you knew was a gold digger and now are complaining about the fact that you allowed this to happen.

However my house is all male, I was raised that you come together as a family and you do what needs to be done and if the house hold does not fall into traditional roles, so be it. 

I work and my husband is home, he would like to find a job and he will at some point , I would never make him feel less of a man for not bringing home an income. 

I'm fine with him being home as long as he helps out and gets stuff done. My income is his money also, we have always shared our accounts, discussed big purchases and so on.

I think bashing the opposite sex is messed up, I think the person who ended up with a bad person is somewhat on them, You teach people how to treat you. This is a lesson I learn a little about everyday.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Catherine, people who become unglued like that over a "personal" matter also tend to become unglued over work issues, business transactions, etc.

Few people can switch gears instantly or based on context.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

John I agree with you. A persons approach to work, family and friends is consistent with their ability to manage themselves. 

Someone said this woman is a nurse? I feel sorry for her patients. If they need pain meds while she is having lunch, God help them!

I'm being hyperbolic but you know what I mean I hope.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> He can't handle his own sh!t any more than she can handle hers. They are a matched set.


:iagree:


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