# Decreased frequency and quality of sex....is it a deal breaker ?



## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

Need some input and help.
To give you guys some background
Been with fiance for almost 3 years now, living together for about 2 years. We're both divorced, both of us 49 years old, she has 2 boys age 8 and 10, who live with her ( I guess live with us as I live at her place now) my childeren are 14 and 21.

We both work similar professions and have similar education and income, although Im much more financialy secure.

I thought everything was great and that after my divorce I had lucked out and found someone really great.
First 6 months of dating I would see her maybe 1 or 2 times a week and I made it clear that we were just casually dating and I was not interested in long term relationship which was what she said she wanted. ( i had just gone through divorce) As time passed I developed strong feeling for her and about 6 -7 months realised I loved her and the relationship became serious.

Sex at the start was great, maybe best ever for me. Quality and intensity and frequency were not an issue. It was really really great.

Since I committed to a serious relationship I sensed a slow decline in interest sexually, at first barely noticicble not a big deal, but it has continued to decline and over the past year its become an issue. Now maybe 2-3 times a month and Im out of town 1 week a month, and the quality is lame.
Its really upsetting me and has made me extremely angry at times. 

Have talked to her, argued, yelled, reasoned etc with limited success. 
I do love this women but Im starting to wonder if she`s good for me. We enjoy each others company but as far as the sex goes its like she`s a different person.

Its making me miserable, Im unhappy and sick of the situation. Thinking about walking but I do love her.


Am I just being a jerk and unreasonable, some input and insight would be appreciated.


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## dixieangel (Jun 28, 2012)

Don't beat yourself up about being upset. A good sex life is a terrible thing to lose. When dating and not seeing each other every day, of course sex is going to be better. The stresses of everyday life can take a toll and we can take each other for granted. Mixing children and households is very stressful too...and stress levels are hard a woman's libido. The only thing you can do is be honest with her that it is so important to you that you will/have considered leaving because of it. Have you considered or discussed marriage counseling?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Read married man sex life by Athol Kay. It is very good. 

In the meantime do not proceed with getting married until you fix this. 





ace21 said:


> Need some input and help.
> To give you guys some background
> Been with fiance for almost 3 years now, living together for about 2 years. We're both divorced, both of us 49 years old, she has 2 boys age 8 and 10, who live with her ( I guess live with us as I live at her place now) my childeren are 14 and 21.
> 
> ...


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

This is one of the reasons we have an engagement. Your still getting to know each other and working out if your meant to spend the rest of your life together.

Your perfectly entitled to decide that this isn't the woman for you.

If you really love her... then try to work it out. Talk, see a counselor, read books and websites like the one suggested above but if it doesn't improve I wouldn't marry her unless you want to be back here complaining about your sexless (less than monthly/12 times a year if I recall correctly) marriage in a few years. This situation seems to rarely improve once it's become an established pattern... in fact it seems to get worse.

Personally sex 2-3 times a month would leave me feeling very neglected and frustrated and dammit I'd want passion as well!! It's very difficult to stay connected and loving towards a spouse who withholds sex.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

Dixieangel, not really sure stress is an issue. We haven`t mixed households. My children live at their mothers house not at my partners house so actually with me moving in her place a year ago Im there to help with her kids, shopping etc. so the stress of being a single mother has improved alot for her. My stress levels may have increased with the added responsibility.
We have gone to see a therapist, several times, who seems pretty good and she absolutely agreed sex is important and told her point blank she needs to stop excuses and have sex. 
However there is still always seems to be some excuse, and it ws still lame, its like she can`t relax and like its a chore now, I dont get it.

MEM have heard about Athol Kay`s book and will get it. 
Good advice about not getting married till this issue is addressed and fixed. I absolutely agree.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

WAIWERA, I certainly don't want get married then be here complaining about sexless marriage.
Didn't realise before being in this situation how much lack of intimacy poisons a relationship.
Im my prior marriage sex was not an issue, so I had no idea how much a lack of it has the potential to destroy all that is good between 2 people who love each other.
Read somewhere that sex is only 10% of a marriage when it is good and 90% when its bad. Thats a pretty accurate statement.

Well I am trying with the therapist, and trying to keep my cool, and over past few weeks went out on Friday night without her, and didnt come back till sat afternoon. Trying to get her to wake up and realise Im getting bored and frustrated.

I have been getting pretty pissed lately and have raised my voice and argued with her and said somethings that have been hurtful and insulting to her. I am ashamed of that but its so frustrating and 
I feel so rejected and betrayed that I lash out to make her feel the same....but this is likley making things worse. ( he who looks hungry won't get fed...or laid for that matter ) 

We had sex last thursday after therapist suggested it and to her credit she did initiate, with oral, I think she wanted to just give me oral and get it over with quickly but I told her I wanted her and so we did do it but it was mediocre...nothing like it was a year earlier, but still it was good start. I told her on friday I would like to do it again, as her sons Bday party was on sat nite and she agreed.
However she didn't want to do much foreplay and for me to get her stimulated and in the mood, she just wanted me to start, it felt almost rushed she did orgasm but before i finished she said it was hurting too much so I used some astraglide but she said she it felt funny so I just stopped ...its not a turn on when the other is not into it..it was just a disaster and I was quite pissed but just walked out of the room and didnt say anything to her and then went to sleep.
Next nite was her sons birthday party so she needed help driving a bunch of children to Chuckie cheese type place and for me to help chaperone party. I had to work so I went in extra early got work done made it back did all that was needed to be done...all in all pretty boring way for me to spend sat nite, only did it cause I love this women and its her child.
After all the festivities were done, and kids sleeping I initiated and she was too tired...thats when I got pissed and spoke pretty harshly and mean to her ( i was still pretty hurt about nite before and now after going in to work super early and giving up my time and paying for part for her childs party, I felt somwhat used)

Again Im getting from reading some of the posts that getting angry and yelling is not going to help my cause, no matter how many chores I have done, or how nice I've been.
Again sunday nite nothing and again I let her know I wasn't happy.

The whole thing just sucks...this is no way to friggin live.
Trying to strategise and play damn head games to make love to one's partner, is just makes no sense .

Well I left Monday to go out of town to work for the next 7 days.
we had a nice monday morning before I left ...just coffee and chatted but before I left I told her she had just blown and wasted the weekend and was damaging the relationship. I truly feel the whole frigging weekend was a waste, we're seeing a therapist, and are on the ropes here and she's going to put very little effort into fixing it.
Later in the day sent her a nasty text message, and neither of us has called past 2 days.

Dont know what to do now...should I apoligise for being a jerk and mean ?? My heart wants to do that, cause she was looking so sad and teary when I left, my brain on the other hand is telling me: no way, she knew exactly how I would react to being avoided and ignored, and I may not call her till i return next week.

Am I handling this all wrong and flying off the handle and being "insensitive " Is there a "right" way to deal with this ? 
I do care for this woman , and want her in my life but I don't want to be miserable and angry all the time.
Don't really know how to proceed.....i did read that fellow T2's Plan, interesting thread but I can't do a 3 year plan.


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

Going to make this simple here. Is there a chance that as your new partner is 49 that she may, just may be starting the menopause? It is NOT unusual for a woman commencing then hormonal change ot start to naturally cease to want sex more often. Yelling and shouting - not good. Its not a good time for a woman who cannot at first see that decline in sexual demand as its a chemical change. Its also something that we guys really dont know or cannot imagine whats the hell its all about. 

Talk about menopause is a really delecate issue - some ladies consider this a de-feminising of themselves are really unable to cope. Consider ths, what would have happened is youd seen an illness in your partner and the sexual side had dropped to where it is now. Would you have made this post? We are all different and in there lies the fact that you want sex a couple of time a week and your partner (by your stats) is happy with once. The quality could be down to the lower sex drive caused by her feeling it need to happen but not dragged out as if your both 20 years old. 

Keep this in mind when you talk. She may not connect her drop in drive with hormonal change. Its just a thought but one that many will not put together with the age issue


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

PAULT, She has had hysterectomy done a year before we met, she felt that her decreased libido may be due to hormones so she has tried bio-identical therapy ( didn't help so far) will keep expoloring for a medical fix.

I agree yelling is bad, and will try to control my emotions.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ace,
Do you recognize either of you in the thread below?


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html




ace21 said:


> WAIWERA, I certainly don't want get married then be here complaining about sexless marriage.
> Didn't realise before being in this situation how much lack of intimacy poisons a relationship.
> Im my prior marriage sex was not an issue, so I had no idea how much a lack of it has the potential to destroy all that is good between 2 people who love each other.
> Read somewhere that sex is only 10% of a marriage when it is good and 90% when its bad. Thats a pretty accurate statement.
> ...


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

I agree that age, and a hysterreectomy can play a part in the decline of a sex drive.

My question is, really, who cares?

The issue at hand is that the sex isn't forthcoming nearly as often as you are needing it. Not wanting it, NEEDING it. The reason behind it really only matters if your SO is wanting to improve things. Based on the excuses you've listed, I doubt she really wants to.

I'm curious how her sex life was in her marriage as well. 

One thing did catch my attention, and that was where you said she refers to sex now as a 'chore.' That's a huge red flag in my books. If something that should be fun in a relationship and be the glue that binds you together is now a chore to her, that's not good, and it can be very hard to bring someone back from the rut of duty sex. If you are staying in the relationship, I'd explore this issue and why it is now a chore when it was not that long ago a real source of passion and affection.

Btw, regarding the hysterrectomy, I'll give you my perspective on it. My SO had a hysterectomy. Now her's was several years ago, so that may play into it, but frequency with her now is about 2x a week. Not GREAT, but not bad either. I've complained on here about my sex life a bit for sure, but it's mostly focused on the fact it's more vanilla than I'd like, rather than the frequency (though I've *****ed about that too on occassion, lol). 

I'm saying that because I don't view a hysterectomy as a death sentence to a sex life. My SO for a few years dropped our frequency down to once every 2-3 weeks at one point, but when it came time to really look at our relationship and decide if we're staying together or not, I told her that that sort of frequency wouldn't convince me to stay. She agreed and worked on it for us. She wanted to make sex a more important issue, and it has been (though still a work in progress). 

I think that where there is a will, there is a way. Your SO seems to have lost her will it seems.


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## wiigirl (Jun 14, 2012)

dixieangel said:


> Don't beat yourself up about being upset. A good sex life is a terrible thing to lose. When dating and not seeing each other every day, of course sex is going to be better. The stresses of everyday life can take a toll and we can take each other for granted. Mixing children and households is very stressful too...and stress levels are hard a woman's libido. The only thing you can do is be honest with her that it is so important to you that you will/have considered leaving because of it. Have you considered or discussed marriage counseling?


:iagree:








_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Life is too short and frankly you're not getting any younger. Why invest more time to what, talk her into being a good partner? So she can fake it until she gets a ring? Gtfo.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

My suspicion is as long as you were casually dating and she felt you could come or go at will she was willing to work to get your attention. Now that she "has" you the motivation to work for your attention has waned.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

You should run away fast. i am in marriage we with a ld women and it will never get better. i would never be in another long term relationship like that no matter how much i loved her. you have to love yourself more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zanna (May 10, 2012)

She's 49? Menopause? Could explain the low desire. Edit - Missed the part about hysterectomy. That will do it too.

You love her. You don't just walk until you sit down with her without yelling or arguing to determine if this is LD or a hormonal issue, or something else. Compassion and understanding for her point of view might go a long way.

All R's have issues or areas of incompatibility. Determine if it's truly unfixable before leaving.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM, read the thread re the thermostat. Quite interesting and I guess I would be the warm partner in a bunch of the ways.

Its so strange, when I was aloof and came and went as I pleased and didn't help at her house or with her kids etc, sex was not an issue, it was great ! When I stepped up and became her partner like she said she wanted then all the crap started.


So when a man does the "right thing" then he gets disrespected from his partner ???? When men change ( maybe for the better )and try to become what our partners want then we get treated like dirt and if I continued to ignore her children and kept her around for my entertainment went out with out her all the time etc then I get treatd well and she's ready to have wild and crazy sex ????

Its just hard to understand, and makes me want to just behave like an ass.....

I guess we'll see, Im out of town till next monday, after being nasty and letting her know I was quite pissed to her on Monday I have not called or made much contact since Monday morning
.
Neither has she.... guess I shouldnt call ???? we will see who caves first.

Is it really that important as to who calls who first if we love each other, why wouldn't I just pick up the phone and see how she's doing ?? 

I was married for 22 years so these silly games seem like a waste of time/energy either be with someone or tell them to get lost


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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Not all women are like that, but yeah, some are. It's rather confusing.

I guess you figured out what makes her tick (maybe). I'd consider moving out and letting her know that and why. It's adealbreaker for you, you seem pretty clear on that, so tell her as much. She'll either change or she won't, but you'll be very clear on what you want and why. 

Just be ready to follow through on what it is you said you'll do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

ACE,
Kudos for a candid, and unfiltered response. I want to make a few clarifying points that are really important. 

First, I do not ever advocate being an a$$. It sets a bad example for the children and it is just wrong. Everything I suggest is within the context of the golden rule. I don't suggest doing anything to someone else, that you would not want done to you. 

The biggest issue that you currently have is that your fiancee is taking you for granted. I am going to take what you have posted in this thread and do a bit of extrapolation based on a very typical dynamic. Feel free to let me know where I am "off base" since surely some of my generalizations will not apply to your situation. 

I grew up with a set of genderizations which I expected to be true in my own marriage:
- Men don't apologize enough, women apologize for stuff that they should not
- Men won't ask for directions (subtext is that this is showing weakness) women (being practical, and not so worried about their ego/self image/others perception of them) will do so without hesitation
- Men take more risks in everything, including investments
- Men are "lower affect", more emotionally reserved and less willing to discuss their feelings
- Men are more "wired for conflict", women are more the peace makers 
- Women want a kind/gentle man who buys scented candles and makes love to them in a soft and slow manner
- ...(I have a longer list - for the moment I will stop here)

Every single one of those templates is backwards in our marriage. And that is ok, as we have "adapted" very well to each other. Had I not adapted, we would be celibate or divorced. 

At 30,000 feet all relationships are predicated on three things:
- respect
- communication 
- trust

And here is how this typically ties together 
1. respect
(Man) My W is being disrespectful by ignoring my emotional need to feel loved through sex. This makes me angry. 
(Wife) My H says nasty/hurtful things to me when he is angry. It is a big turn off to see him lose control of his emotions, as that is something I expect from a child, not a man. He is angry I don't feel "desire" for him. It isn't just about whether or not we "have" sex, he NEEDS me to feel sexual way more than I do. And when I don't feel that way, he gets angry. I don't directly control my desire level. He doesn't respect how I feel. 
(Man) I don't ask that much from her, it makes me angry that she is happy to ask a LOT from me, and then ignore my short list of priorities. It shows a lack of respect and appreciation for what I do for her, and indirectly her kids. 
2. communication
(Man) I have no idea why she is doing what she does half the time 
(Wife) He doesn't pay much attention to my tone, body language, and facial expressions. Certain things are awkward, and I don't want to have to "say them in words". I liked hearing him say "I love you" when we were dating. I felt less anxious about life in general knowing he cared about me. But as things heated up and we moved in together it sounds less and less like "I love you" and more and more like "do you love me?" He isn't a "clingy" man, but somehow I feel a bit smothered and THAT is a huge turn off. 
(Man) Everyone told me women like a sensitive man. 
(Wife) Laughing - "Sensitive, yeah, ok. I'm the woman, I'm the one who gets to be easily upset. I want him to be sensitive to ME. Not sensitive as in he gets easily upset or is frequently expressing anxiety, anger, frustration or resentment. I HATE having long conversations about how HE feels unhappy about stuff. I know when I am being a bltch. Why doesn't he just slap me on the butt, look me in the eye and tell me to go in the bedroom and get undressed because he is going to come in and "take me". 
(Man) When I explain in detail how I feel she seems to be even more irritated. Why is she doing this. 
(Wife) After this long conversation about how I was disrespectful or bltchy, he goes and does a bunch of housework/flowers/dinner/nice stuff. First I have to endure this long, tense conversation about how he is upset with me. And then, he does all this "extra nice stuff" so I will have sex with him. I know I was a bltch. It doesnt chance the fact that:
- A highly emotional (his) conversation followed by 
- A sort of subservient type super nice routine 
Is a big turn off. 

And getting this constant desire vibe, and all the I love you stuff when you are turned off, just makes it all worse. I want it to work, because he really is a good guy, but I am not getting into bed with him simply because I know he is feeling ignored. The thing is he yelled at me for not having sex the night before, I am not ok with rewarding that kind of interaction. Instead of trying to "buy" my cooperation or desire with flowers or a dinner, why doesn't he just show ME his raw desire. THAT is honest communication. And when I am being bltchy, an immediate and aggressive sexual response is a good response. And if I reject him, maybe he should ignore me until I apologize and drag him to bed for makeup sex. I need to know he can withstand my disapproval and/or my anger. 

Trust
(Wife) I don't trust him to manage his emotions. I don't trust him not to crowd me with ILYs even when it should be obvious he is smothering me. I don't trust him not to get angry at me for not "loving him enough, showing him enough love". And if he really trusted that I love him, why can't he give me enough space to actually approach HIM? In a way, I don't think he trusts how I feel about him. Or he lacks the confidence to know that I will approach him if he gives me space. Either way.
(Man) I don't feel very trusting. The more commitment I have shown, the more loving I have become, the colder she has gotten. Who the heck acts like that? If I have to play "games", I don't want to be together. 

Disclaimer: The stuff above is not a right or wrong thing. It just "is". 

Ace,
If this is close to the mark, you need to do a reset. And the reset kind of goes like this. If you call her, you should keep it short. 
(you) I apologize for the way I spoke to you before I left. I now realize that I have been handling our conflict badly. Going forward I will manage my anger like a grown up. Doesn't mean I won't get angry. If I do, I will let you know in a calm, constructive manner. 

If you get a cool response, just accept it. Do not say the words I love you on this call. Not even at the end. Just say "have a good night". Don't even say "I will see you Friday". 

When you get home - you should be friendly and happy without being warm. LET HER COME TO YOU. Or not. Let her decide if she wants the engagement to continue. If she isn't friendly do not reward the lack of warmth. If you had plans to take her out, tell her that you are going to have to reschedule. Don't apologize, and don't explain. Just say "I am going to have to take a rain check on that". Let her get angry. If you can't tolerate her anger, this situation will only get worse. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>
If the opportunity comes up while you are home, you could share this with her: 
As for the physical part of our relationship, I like that you don't "pretend" to feel differently than you actually do feel. I like the honesty. That said, I am going to make an observation. After a long work week, there are times when I don't feel like going out even though we have plans. The reason I get dressed up and drive somewhere with you, is because you are a high priority to me. And in the spirit of starting the night off on a positive note, I keep my lack of enthusiasm to myself. The good part of this dynamic is that once we get there, I almost always have fun. That isn't going to change. 

What I need you to do, to show me the same level of commitment physically. You may need to show me how to get you warmed up, when you start out not feeling that way. And that also means I need you to be more comfortable sharing turn on/turn off stuff since that will only strengthen our bond. 

And then shut up and listen. Make eye contact and use a very low key delivery. If you don't like what you hear, stop all the loving stuff until she approaches you and commits to fixing the physical part of the R. 



ace21 said:


> MEM, read the thread re the thermostat. Quite interesting and I guess I would be the warm partner in a bunch of the ways.
> 
> Its so strange, when I was aloof and came and went as I pleased and didn't help at her house or with her kids etc, sex was not an issue, it was great ! When I stepped up and became her partner like she said she wanted then all the crap started.
> 
> ...


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

There's a common perception out there that women like bad boys. I don't think it's so much the bad that attracts them as much as its the guys not working too hard to get their attention. I think it's human nature to want more want we can't have than what we can obtain easily. Not to mention if there's a fear of loss because the other person seems to have options there is going to be more effort put into keeping that person. It's kind of a perverse dynamic in a way.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

Zanna, yes i do love her. I have tried to talk and be reasonable, and we are seeing a therapist as a couple.
A little bit of effort or interest from her would go a long way. 

For example.. currently Im out of town for the week, she knows I left pissed and I'm not calling her.
If she was interested in "fixing" or making things better in my opinion she needs to call me and be sweet and nice and maybe even apoligise for neglecting us and our needs. Im really steamed because I used my time and resources to help out with her life (which I do regularly) and got treated poorly, ignored in return, and this is not first time this has happened. 

Im getting tired of making excuses for her selfish behavior and giving her a pass for her behavior
.
If she doesn't make serious changes , I think i have no choice but to get away from her. As some one posted Im not geting any younger and I really don't need to be tied down to a lady with 2 young children who wants to play games and can't do whats needed to maintain a serious relationship.


I would hope I have many more important things to do with my life then deal with this nonsense.
Im seriously considering moving out of her place within the next 2 weeks if I don't see big changes.

Is this unreasonable and selfish on my part ??
Thanks for all of your replies, never thought I'd be on a site like this discussing such personal issues but it's very helpful to hear a variety of opinions .


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## millers4691 (Sep 21, 2012)

Why don't you ask her about what is going on. Maybe she's feeling stressed, or maybe she's feeling bad that she doesn't want to have sex as much as you do. Maybe she doesn't know how you feel about it. If you feel like a creep, then stop drinking with her and talk to her. 
Don't be accusatory, don't make her feel like she's done something wrong, because she hasn't. Think about how you would feel if the roles were reversed, and you were no longer interested in sex so often, how would you react to someone talking to you, and then gauge your questions from there.
I am not saying this is the case for you, but I am saying that a woman's emotional needs are way different than a mans... They aren't all about sex.. there is an emotional element to it.. and if the emotion seems lacking (be it real or imagined on our part) they aren't all that inclined to purr.

I wish you the best.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM, just read your post. Wow ! some what you wrote is spot on.
A reset ??? Let me reread and think it over.
Your input is greatly appreciated.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Millers,
The problems with this are simple:
- If she is feeling that way, who's responsibility is it to communicate that? What is he supposed to do constantly ask her if she is "ok"?
- A good LD partner will "take care of" their HD partner because they want that person to feel loved. 

As for her not being obligated. That is true as well. I think that he will find however that if he insists on a 50-50 split of the bills she will end things quickly. So in a way he is obligated. 

The requests from the LD partner tend to increase over time. They expect more and more. They often don't grasp the concept of reciprocity and have no interest in 'understanding it' when it is explained. Massive sense of entitlement. 





millers4691 said:


> Why don't you ask her about what is going on. Maybe she's feeling stressed, or maybe she's feeling bad that she doesn't want to have sex as much as you do. Maybe she doesn't know how you feel about it. If you feel like a creep, then stop drinking with her and talk to her.
> Don't be accusatory, don't make her feel like she's done something wrong, because she hasn't. Think about how you would feel if the roles were reversed, and you were no longer interested in sex so often, how would you react to someone talking to you, and then gauge your questions from there.
> I am not saying this is the case for you, but I am saying that a woman's emotional needs are way different than a mans... They aren't all about sex.. there is an emotional element to it.. and if the emotion seems lacking (be it real or imagined on our part) they aren't all that inclined to purr.
> 
> I wish you the best.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

millers4691 said:


> Why don't you ask her about what is going on. Maybe she's feeling stressed, or maybe she's feeling bad that she doesn't want to have sex as much as you do. Maybe she doesn't know how you feel about it. If you feel like a creep, then stop drinking with her and talk to her.
> Don't be accusatory, don't make her feel like she's done something wrong, because she hasn't. Think about how you would feel if the roles were reversed, and you were no longer interested in sex so often, how would you react to someone talking to you, and then gauge your questions from there.
> I am not saying this is the case for you, but I am saying that a woman's emotional needs are way different than a mans... They aren't all about sex.. there is an emotional element to it.. and if the emotion seems lacking (be it real or imagined on our part) they aren't all that inclined to purr.
> 
> I wish you the best.


Well I have asked her and we are going to a threrapist together.
She says she doesn't know whats going on and also says she doesn't like feeling this way. She seems convinced its some hormonal/endocrine issue. 
I would like to believe her and I have given her time and benefit of the doubt but I've gotton to know her history fairly well and some of her behavior just doesn't make sense.
She is/was a very sexual woman, in the first year and a half.I find it hard that someone can just turn it off the way she has.

If roles were reversed I wouldnt like it, but if it were this important to my partner,and my partners feelings were important to me I would take steps to get aroused and to spice things up. I was married over 20 years and I had periods where I wasn't into it but found ways to spice it up and our sex life continued to get better even after 20 years....but my ex wife was willing to be a partner in keeping our sex life growing. 
If I didn't care much about my partners feelings I would avoid the issue and disregard their feelings , and they could stay or go I wouldn't care...and I feel she may be doing just that.

I do agree I must stop being accusotory,its not helping things and she does know how I feel about the issue.
Its been kind of hard not be accusotory, given how its all playing out. To me she just takes me for granted, Im there for all her and her childrens needs ( you have no idea what I have done for her and her children if its pertinent I can give details) 

I think I have attended to all her emotional needs, or at least Im trying.... but I could be wrong, she's complex and somewhat weird..:scratchhead:

The only thing I shouldn't be doing is yelling and insulting her..but I don't want to be a doormat and I will have to figure out how to be firm and make my views known without crossing that line..as I know I can be intimidating when Im angry and its making everything worse.

By the way, why do you say stop drinking with her and talk to her ?? I don't think I mentioned if we drank together, or that it was an issue...just curious.

believe me I want her to purr again.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Millers,
> The problems with this are simple:
> - If she is feeling that way, who's responsibility is it to communicate that? What is he supposed to do constantly ask her if she is "ok"?
> - A good LD partner will "take care of" their HD partner because they want that person to feel loved.
> ...


MEM, interesting...I have told my partner several times that she has big problem with feeling entitled, and that she is very selfish.... and she has admitted she is a very selfish person, she wasn't even upset by my saying it and didnt deny it.

Her requests have increased over the past year, ( she's very careful not to make demands ) which I have just absorbed as understandable with us becoming a couple /family/household....I've had no real problems with that as long as Im not taken for granted, and thats where the problems have come up...there has been no or very little reciprocity. 
She defends herself by saying if you do something for me then you make me feel like I owe you?? 

I have a different take on it ...if I do something for her or her children, I do it out of love and caring for them, not to get sex in return. If I didnt love her I wouldn't do them simple as that, and she doesn't owe me anything, but if I don't feel loved then doing things for her won't be a priority.


But as far as the bills for her house, I would have been willing to split 50/50, theres no way I would make her dependent on me. (she had severe financial issues when I met her, ridiculous given her income) and I've helped her through them, I did pay her bills for about 2-3 months in summer 2010 and have insisted she be financially stable and independent.
To her credit she has listened and has completely turned her financial situation around in 2 years, from living pay check to pay check to where she now has a emergency fund and is fairly stable and doesn't really need me to pay any of her bills.

I don't want her to start depending on me to run her household and then me taking off...Im not being cheap but she was really in big financial trouble, which I didn't learn about till we comitted to each other and she has to develop good fiscal habits.

So I do contribute to the household bills but we dont have any formal plan. I will pay some bills, buy groceries often, buy things for her kids, and the house, pay for some house repairs etc and Im paying for the therapist.
Im quite generous and do a lot, I used to do more and would have split all the expenses 50/50 formally, but I won't till the relationship is on more stable grounds, and I've made that clear to her and she has been ok with it. But there is no way I would pay all the expenses of her house, I would go 50/50. 
So to her credit she is paying most of the houshold bills since the 2 to 3 months I paid in 2010 although I do contribute alot, and she has not been pushing much for me to pay more.
We are good in many ways together, its sad this issue is so destructive.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ace,
This is what I discovered in year 18 of my marriage. 

My W had slowly deprioritized me outside the bedroom. Inside the bedroom she was a great partner and always has been. 

But we had a massive workload imbalance and she was simply awful about doing small acts of service for me. She wouldn't refuse the individual requests, she was just not organized and she did refuse to keep a to do list. I know that seems insane - but she was stubborn. Many times laughing I would say "you are lucky your so good in bed". But the thing is I started feeling massively resentful that she was taking advantage of a situation most women would have really loved: stay at home mom to 3 kids who were in school full time. The kids are good kids, so she "worked" 20-30 hours a week and did some volunteer work of her choosing. And zero financial stress. 

But lets be real, I did the stay at home thing for over a year. If laundry took me 2 hours, and I spent the whole time watching tv while I did it, is that comparable to 2 hours of real world work? So the 20-30 hours of "work" was not "half" of my workload it was more like 1/5. 

Like you I got slowly more angry and combative. And then one day I had an "awakening". My W asked ME to do something that was important to her. And I calmly said: Up until now you have been my highest priority. The thing is, the lack of getting simple stuff done for me without me having to remind you many, many times, has caused me to reevaluate my priorities. Sadly you are no longer my highest priority, I am. If you are too "busy" to help take care of me, I will take care of myself. 

Please do not repeat this request to me unless and until you address this issue where I seem to be regarded as some kind of nuisance instead of at the guy who loves you the most, who has made you his number prioirity for almost 20 years, and who works VERY hard to pay for this very nice life we all enjoy. 

She was shocked. I wasn't angry. I wasn't loud. I was calm but firm. And then she got scared. Being concsiously deprioritized is a BAD thing for a woman. 

Within 2 months she did a full turn around. To do list, close to a 90% hit rate on first request, and always got the small misses on the second pass. I waited a while and she stayed the course. 

Since then, when I don't like what is happening I have a playbook that is quite helpful. Glad to share the whole thing if you like. 

A couple excerpts from it: There are many flavors of "I am more important than you are". One of them is my "time" is more important than yours. 

For example: Standing in a long line to get tickets, just the two of us. She takes out her smart phone and starts doing stuff. Fine by me, I take mine out and start reading the washington post online. After about a minute she looks up, sees what I am doing and "suddenly realizes" that what SHE did was not polite. Apologizes and puts her phone away. I put mine away as well, but I didn't apologize. 

A lot of folks would say "that didn't mean anything". Maybe not. But when you have a pattern of that stuff, and don't address it, your partner concludes that you really arent as important as they are. Train wreck. 

I do not let any of that stuff go. I don't yell, or say nasty things. I do however give some brief body language and one word which might be "hey"? as in why are you doing that?

Or it might be "I am not ok with that". 

If she acts like a bltch, until I receive an apology, I just stop interacting with her other than for minimal schedule type conversations. 

On top of that I DO use sexual aggression. I will say, when she is really pushing the edge: Do that again and I WILL spank you. Very flat delivery style. And if she repeats it, I provide her what she appears to need. 

I have a link, if you wish to read the full list. 3-4 pages




ace21 said:


> Well I have asked her and we are going to a threrapist together.
> She says she doesn't know whats going on and also says she doesn't like feeling this way. She seems convinced its some hormonal/endocrine issue.
> I would like to believe her and I have given her time and benefit of the doubt but I've gotton to know her history fairly well and some of her behavior just doesn't make sense.
> She is/was a very sexual woman, in the first year and a half.I find it hard that someone can just turn it off the way she has.
> ...


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> ACE,
> Kudos for a candid, and unfiltered response. I want to make a few clarifying points that are really important.
> 
> First, I do not ever advocate being an a$$. It sets a bad example for the children and it is just wrong. Everything I suggest is within the context of the golden rule. I don't suggest doing anything to someone else, that you would not want done to you.
> ...


MEM, theres a lot here that makes sense and has many similarities to my situation. I will give it a try and see how it goes.
What is a reasonable time frame to wait for results to see if it works ? what about intimacy ? Do you suggest I make no move to initiate intimacy for a while ?

Also please do send a link for your full list, its a better approach then my current approach.

thanks


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Most important is be upbeat and fun to be around. You are successful and healthy, if you move on you won't be alone for very long. 

I think it best not to initiate sex. If she does that's fine. I also expect that she is going to suddenly manufacture a lot of requests for you. 

Best thing is a friendly smile and a 'I have a lot to do today, I don't think I will be able to do that'. 
Do not apologize. Because it will be insincere. You aren't sorry so don't say it. You may get some questions like: are you angry? 
(I would deflect this question, by the way it is NOT a sincere or honest question. Of course you're angry, she has been rejecting you. Not only are you angry she knows exactly why. It is very bad to answer a question like that, just deflect it. Just understand one thing. You are going to trigger a hardwired sequence. Buckle up and prepare for a rough ride because her sequence is going to be:
- get Ace to do acts of service if that fails try harder and be more pushy about it
- try to get him to acknowledge anger and then accuse him of being angry about a factor outside her control 
- try to MAKE HIM ANGRY - if I can't control his actions directly, I need to at least demonstrate control of his emotions 

If you know she is going to try to hijack your emotions she can't. If you clearly see manipulation as it begins, it doesn't work. 

She may say some mean stuff. If she crosses the line, say nothing and start packing. 

The reason is this. If she is allowed to get emotionally abusive simply because you are declining acts of service, that is no different at all then you being mean when she rejects intimacy. 

You cannot solve that type aggression by talking. She either wants it to work enough to manage her emotions like a grownup, or you find someone else to play with. 

Does any of this make sense? 


In the meantime practice giving her low key body language instead of talking when you wish to either encourage or discourage things she is doing to you.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Most important is be upbeat and fun to be around. You are successful and healthy, if you move on you won't be alone for very long.
> 
> I think it best not to initiate sex. If she does that's fine. I also expect that she is going to suddenly manufacture a lot of requests for you.
> 
> ...



MEM thanks for your well thought out response,
I think what you say is a much better way to manage our issues.
Im realising I can't convince her that perhaps my deep anger and resentment is a logical response to her ignoring our relationship and selfish behavior, she has no concpt of reciprocity, not just with me but with others in her life. Im realising she's a taker and its hard for her to give anything


My issue is going to be controlling my anger, Im a loud guy. I grew up in a loud, shouting family..even now I'll go home and my brother or mother and I may get into a loud screaming argument,saying all sorts of nasty things and then an hour later we go out for lunch and we're all fine. 
Point is we know we're family and are bound to each other, nothing will change that.
When I get close to someone who I care about that part of me comes out. Never at work or in daily interaction..ie I never get road rage.... There are only 6 people who can push this button ( ex wife, son,daughter, mother, brother, and my current partner, but not her children ) and this women knows this.
Point is as soon as I get in this state i lose whatever valid point Im making.

My partner states this is the main issue, and she knows how to get me going....she doesn't get too angry, she just ignores and makes indifferent distracted responses, or goes on smart phone, or says shes too tired to address whatever issue it is, and knows this will anger me. I think it establishes a type of control for her over whatever is going on at the time, it could be something minor like washing dishes or cleaning out the closet, its not always about sex. But I dont get angry about mundane daily issues but the sex issue infuriates me, and then I can get mean and say some awful things. 

So my point is she knows this and she is good at dissociating and ignoring, avoiding everything and knows it will anger me.

So if we even try to repair our relationship which is doubtful,
her anger is not going to be issue, controlling my emotions will be issue. 


I think the only way for me to be in control of myself with her is to try to stop caring so much..ie your idea of removing her as my top priority. I think thats key....I've already started to remove her mentally as my priority.

We spoke today, and it was ok, she had sent me an email the gist of it was she can't have sex because of the intense rage and cruelty i have regarding the issue ????? What issue her depriving me and Im the jerk ??

I haven't responded yet to the email, but Im thinking I need to write thats shes no longer my priority.
maybe I'll post her email here, or send it to you if you want... to let you know how she sees things ?? there are 2 sides to it, and maybe Im the jerk.

She took no responsibility at all for this issue taking control of our relationship, just put it all on me. Even though I've been telling her for a year or 2 that this issue is going to destroy us, and now it is. 
Therapist was also point blank saying we need to have sex, that its not an option, just do it.


This email has really helped some to remove her as a priority to me, Im starting to care less. 

or does she have a point and my anger is the issue ??
this is the only thing I get angry about with her, and she knows it.

regardless the only way not allow her to push my buttons is to not care what she does. I think thats the only way for me to proceed, not care and take care of myself, Im not without fault but I cant be with someone who just makes me angry and crazy on a regular basis.
I deserve and can get much better.
if things dont improve then I have no choice but to leave


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ace21 said:


> Zanna, yes i do love her. I have tried to talk and be reasonable, and we are seeing a therapist as a couple.
> A little bit of effort or interest from her would go a long way.
> 
> For example.. currently Im out of town for the week, she knows I left pissed and I'm not calling her.
> ...


Expecting big change is not unreasonable. Expecting it in two weeks is kind of pushing it, depending on what the issue is. If, for instance, she was using sex as an instrument of power against you, then yeah she can just not do that and be with you. OTOH, if there are more deep-seated issues (history of abuse, for instance) you will have to give her more time. If that should happen, you need to then consider not just how long you will wait for improvement but (unfortunately) whether you should wait at all - that is, whether she can ever improve enough to be an acceptable spouse.

Expecting her to just call and apologize, while she is possibly unclear as to why you are pissed (or perhaps thinking you don't want her to call), is unreasonable. You need to have that talk that MEM talked about above.

On that subject, MEM gave you _excellent_ advice. I would just add a few details. First, who should stress that pity sex is not acceptable. When you say you want her committment, you mean a cheerful commitment and service based on love for you and respect for the marriage. Two, she needs to know that it's going to take time for her to convince you she has changed. Three, if she shows any hesitation, end the engagement and walk away. What you want is her emotional buy-in to your happiness. If she has any sort of attitude like "well, I really don't want to, but that's the price of having someone" you are setting yourself up for future resentment.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

ace21 said:


> We have gone to see a therapist, several times, who seems pretty good and she absolutely agreed sex is important and told her point blank she needs to stop excuses and have sex.
> However there is still always seems to be some excuse, and it ws still lame, its like she can`t relax and like its a chore now, I dont get it.


When there's "always an excuse", it is time to put a stop to it. How do you do it? Well, you've talked to her about it. You've seen a counselor about it. And she still doesn't change. So ask yourself, what is different now than when you first started dating? Why so much more sex then, and why is she seemingly bored now? Because she is "bored". And by that I don't mean bored in the bedroom. The sex could be great, and she could still be bored. She's not mentally stimulated. She's losing attraction for you, even though she may see you as very attractive. Difference is, now she thinks she's "got you". She doesn't have to work to keep you (and by "work", I'm not just talking about sex). She's not challenged anymore. She doesn't feel a need to pursue you.

I may be wrong, but that's my guess. So, IF that's the case, how to correct it?

Start pulling back in subtle ways. You've talked to her about it and asked her to work on it, and that is not working. So, now she needs to know that you will not live like "this" (in a sexually deprived or frustrated relationship). You can't outright threaten her with it, but you need to bring it up in conversation. When you're talking about it, say something maybe to the effect of "you know babe, I've been there before. It was so frustrating to live in a loveless relationship. I can't and won't do it again. I'd be happier alone." Again, don't "direct" it at her, but let her know your feelings. She needs to know that NO, you won't "love her no matter what, even in the absence of sex". You may. But telling her so tells her she no longer has to do that to keep you. Ahhhh, pressure is off (and attraction is fading).

All of this nonsense people come up with about "I'm tired", or "I'm not in the mood", or "I have to get up early" is nonsense. Why? Because when you were first dating, and for possibly 6 months or a year after that, you were screwing like bunnies without much thought to being tired, having to get up early, or being stressed at work or with kids. Why is that? Attraction. And the desire to attract YOU. And because she was pursuing you. You were not a "certainty" or "sure thing". You are now. So stop being those things. 

Once you've "put the bug in her ear" that you REFUSE to live "that kind of life", if she does not make real efforts to make it better, QUIETLY start "pulling back". Spend more time away from the house doing things for you. Be a little more "distant" from her. Don't yell, whine, cry, beg, and certainly do not "do more" in an effort to kiss her azz to get it (this, assuming, you're already doing your share around the house. If you're not, get off your azz and start). This is all not in an effort to "bully her" to get your way. This is however an effort to get her WORKING to keep you again, like she did in the start....when she didn't "know" she had you. There was a fear in her that she could lose you if she was not at her best, and as a result you were very attractive and desireable to her. Get that attraction and desire back by not being a "sure thing". Keep yourself in shape. Do your own activities, outside of the home, at least one day a week. Spend one day a week golfing. Fishing. In a pottery class. Running marathons. Whatever it is, do something for yourself that brings you into contact with other people. Just her knowing she can't have eyes on you at every moment you're not at work will create a thought in her mind that you are "out there" and could meet someone, and she'd better be on top of her game to keep your eyes only on her, even when you're alone and she's nowhere in sight.

And this advice would be no different were a woman here asking the same thing. It's not manipulation. It is about staying attractive to her by not letting her think she's "got you" no matter what. It is about you having "options" should you so chose. She needs to know you chose her as your option because she's THE BEST ONE, and not THE ONLY ONE. 

You, and you alone are responsible for your happiness. Not her. If someone is not meeting your needs, you are responsible for either putting up with it, or walking away from it. As long as you put up with it, and show no desire to walk away from it, she'll not feel an inner need to work at keeping you. And if she's not working to keep you, at least on some level, she will lose attraction for you. And her sexual interest in you will fade.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ace,
Your email below is great. I imagine your GF has gotten away with this her whole life. The lack of reciprocity. And the tactic of ignoring/freezing people out when she dislikes what they ask her to do/not do. 

By nature I am more like you. I had to learn to be almost completely like your GF in order to keep some level of balance in our marriage. 

My suggestion is that you completely ignore her email. She is trying to "position". The "position" goes like this: 
- It's all your fault
- I am going to hold your temper over your head for the rest of your time together
- I am going to use your temper as the reason I don't "feel safe" and that will be the basis for starving you of sex whenever I want

Don't debate this. The only thing I would do is send her a very short text letting her know what time you will be home if you normally do that. If she already knows, and you don't normally do that, than don't do it now. 

And when you get home, use a nice friendly voice to her and the kids, but don't engage in any real conversation. 

I believe you that she may not get visibly angry with you. But from what you wrote, when she realizes that you have put her on "ignore" she is going to work very very hard to make YOU angry. It is the way she controls men. 

She will almost certainly ask if you got her email. 

Ace, if you want to learn how to fight with a woman and not get your azz kicked, then you need to fight just like they do. It is almost impossible to get spun up if you start out thinking: this is a cold hearted person who has been manipulating me for a long time. She wants what she wants, and doesn't care about other people, me included. 

So when she asks if you got the email just say: "yes". That's it. A one word factual response. You got it. And the fact that you have no response, means you don't care what she thinks at this point. And you need to NOT CARE what she thinks at this point. 

If she plays the guilt card "I was really hurt that you didn't even respond": translation: "I cannot believe you won't accept 100 percent responsibility for our problems". 

BTW: The summary of her email goes like this - but don't say this to her. Because saying it means you want to fix things. And at this point, only SHE can fix things. So don't explain it. Besides, she will just deny, deny, deny. 

Summary:
Ace,
You are an angry combative person who has really upset me. This is why I don't want to have sex with you (BTW: I do not believe this is really true, I think that the sex died off as soon as you became too nice too her. Without a challenge, she has no desire. But that is not a topic to raise with her because you cannot prove it and she WILL totally deny it). 

You get so angry and say mean things and ..... on and on. 
(this is the part she left out)
At heart though, you are a good guy who gives me lots of gifts, money and acts of service. And compliments too. I am ok with taking all that stuff, despite all your anger. Because, well, I deserve it. But I am not going to sleep with you. 

So I am thinking, maybe you can join my financial harem. The deal for the men in my harem is that they give me stuff, and I pretend that someday I might sleep with them again. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

She can and will deny all of this. You will end up furious and exhausted. You will say things that make you look and feel weak. So don't. 

Just say "yes". And no matter what her response is to the word "yes", just be silent. 

Unless she says "I don't think this relationship is working out". If she goes there, best to say: "Agreed". 

And then when she starts to blame you, just laugh and get up and walk out. And if she resumes that conversation at any later point, just get up and walk away. 

She can either work towards a balanced conversation and resolution and own her part - which SHE needs to volunteer OR she can discuss the schedule for you leaving. 

If she asks "when" you will be leaving, I would just "when would you like for me to leave"? And then respond with "2 weeks works best for me". 

If you had known how to handle this type person 2 years ago, she would still be in bed with you. Someone like this, is an expert in emotional manipulation, but has no desire for men they can manipulate. 






ace21 said:


> MEM thanks for your well thought out response,
> I think what you say is a much better way to manage our issues.
> Im realising I can't convince her that perhaps my deep anger and resentment is a logical response to her ignoring our relationship and selfish behavior, she has no concpt of reciprocity, not just with me but with others in her life. Im realising she's a taker and its hard for her to give anything
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with this whole post except one part. 

He doesn't need to say "he won't live in a sexless marriage". And he shouldn't. She already knows that. It is weak to repeat yourself. He needs to pull back hard. If she pursues, maybe this works. If not, then it is over. 



donny64 said:


> When there's "always an excuse", it is time to put a stop to it. How do you do it? Well, you've talked to her about it. You've seen a counselor about it. And she still doesn't change. So ask yourself, what is different now than when you first started dating? Why so much more sex then, and why is she seemingly bored now? Because she is "bored". And by that I don't mean bored in the bedroom. The sex could be great, and she could still be bored. She's not mentally stimulated. She's losing attraction for you, even though she may see you as very attractive. Difference is, now she thinks she's "got you". She doesn't have to work to keep you (and by "work", I'm not just talking about sex). She's not challenged anymore. She doesn't feel a need to pursue you.
> 
> I may be wrong, but that's my guess. So, IF that's the case, how to correct it?
> 
> ...


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Ace

When I was first having trouble with my ex we went to marriage counselling which quickly became individual counselling for me as my wife had disengaged. My ex hit me with a laundry list of my faults that were causing her to no longer love me. My counsellor told me none of them were reasons to break up a marriage...except one. 

That one was my anger issues. I was never physical but I used to snap, lose my temper and yell. Never around people I wasn't that close to but around my immediate family. Probably the exact opposite of the way it should have been. My anger was intense enough to frighten both my ex and my kids. 

That remark by the counsellor was like a revelation for me. I don't know why...you would think it was obvioius. I was forced to face the issue and really look at it. I realized how wrong it was. That day I went home and apologized to my wife and kids for my outbursts and vowed never to do it again. That was 9 years ago now and I've kept that vow since.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Maritime, 
This is the best post on the thread so far. 

Ace, 
Maritime is totally right about one thing: many/most women will gradually lose love for you if you do not manage your anger. I absolutely have had similar issues over this topic. 

You will find that with most women, getting angry and raising your voice when they treat you badly sounds like this to them: 'I am angry that you don't love me as much as I love you and/or that you are not doing what I want.' 

That just doesn't work. Equally you cannot sit next to them on a couch for two hours and be silently quiet/hostile. 

You can happily announce you are going 'out' and will be back later. Or say that a certain sports game or show is really important to you and you want to watch it (pick something you know they dislike), or you need to catch up on work or reading the wall street journal online. 

The 'I am happy with ME, I simply don't wish to be with YOU approach works well with most women. 

No head games. Let them know what triggered the choice to deprioritize them first. In very few words with no yelling. Practice,' oh, I thought you committed to doing that', or 'that is not ok', or the ever popular 'why would you think I am ok with that'? And then let them decide if they are actually going to own their bad behavior. 

The scariest type of female partners do this:
- They do something to you they would never accept done to them
- you calmly protest
- They carefully and deliberately provoke you to get you angry enough to say something stupid

They walk away. When the incident is revisited later the only aspect of it they are willing to discuss is the part where you spoke to them disrespectfully 

Since they refuse to discuss anything else, and because you know that you should not have reacted that way you apologize. In parallel with this they keep up gentle but steady pressure for you to do more and more for them as they do less and less for you. And later that night, or that week when they reject sex and you get angry they are either subtle or direct in saying: we don't have sex because you are always angry. 

It never dawns on you that you are always tense because you are being manipulated and sexually starved at the same time. Which makes it even easier for them to rinse and repeat. 

Hard for you to identify that this is a strategy because you would never do that to someone.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Pault said:


> Going to make this simple here. Is there a chance that as your new partner is 49 that she may, just may be starting the menopause? It is NOT unusual for a woman commencing then hormonal change ot start to naturally cease to want sex more often. Yelling and shouting - not good. Its not a good time for a woman who cannot at first see that decline in sexual demand as its a chemical change. Its also something that we guys really dont know or cannot imagine whats the hell its all about.
> 
> Talk about menopause is a really delecate issue - some ladies consider this a de-feminising of themselves are really unable to cope. Consider ths, what would have happened is youd seen an illness in your partner and the sexual side had dropped to where it is now. Would you have made this post? We are all different and in there lies the fact that you want sex a couple of time a week and your partner (by your stats) is happy with once. The quality could be down to the lower sex drive caused by her feeling it need to happen but not dragged out as if your both 20 years old.
> 
> Keep this in mind when you talk. She may not connect her drop in drive with hormonal change. Its just a thought but one that many will not put together with the age issue


Great post.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MARITIME, thanks for the reminder on the anger. I sometimes forget how damaging it can be. 

DONNY, you're right I have to pull back and just make myself happy, I've known that for a while but I've been putting her and her needs first and its just being taken for granted. 

MEM, you really nailed the type of person she is. ( she's a psychiatrist by the way and a master manipulator ) I was LMAO reading it. Alot of it was right on and damn funny. 

I have not responded to her email and I agree its better not to.
Also what would I say ?? Reason with her or debate ?? Its never worked yet and it never will. Its pointless. If logic worked with peole like this I wouldn't have any problems.
She has sent sent me a couple of texts telling me how depressed and tired and how hard life is for her, and how she feels she's "cracking up". 
You guys are right .
Men are so much simpler and direct, makes me sometimes want to be gay !

Will see how pulling back and keeping my temper works with her. 

Makes me really wonder if this is the type of person I even want to be with long term.

thanks everyone for the advice and support.


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

> The scariest type of female partners do this:
> - They do something to you they would never accept done to them
> - you calmly protest
> - They carefully and deliberately provoke you to get you angry enough to say something stupid
> ...


This...exactly. Don't fall for it! Some women are very good at it (men, not so much I think). How many times have you had a disagreement, where you are solidly in the right, only to then have them seemingly trying to do nothing more than provoke you so you get angry, yell, or say something stupid, to then watch her at that moment go completely silent and walk away like she's "wounded". That's the moment some women are waiting for. That gives her a "win" even when she knew she was wrong. It gives them an excuse to not have to change or address the issue and blame shift to you. My ex was a pro at this, and I was too young and too stupid to recognize it. 

The most effective way to "argue" with virtually any woman is to not ever lose your temper. Don't say hurtful things. Don't call names. Argue the points, period, in a calm manner. If she starts in with disrespectful and hurtful things, zip it up, and remove yourself from the situation. Let her know when she can talk rationally about it, you'll talk to her, but not until then. I'm telling you, you will gain a ton of respect, even though on the surface it may infuriate her or confuse her. She'll even try to put it on you and make you feel guilty because "you just walk away, and you don't want to work on the problem". BS. As soon as the disrespect, yelling, name calling, etc., starts, remove yourself from her area and tell her you're done talking about this until she can be calm and reasonable.

Try it. It may not work the first time, but if you follow this you'll be amazed at how, eventually (and often sooner rather than later) her attitude changes. For one she'll know you can't be provoked into anger. And she'll respect that. For another she may see it as you detaching from her when she's acting badly. Another good thing.

Be calm. Everyone respects that, and women are attracted to it. Women (good women with their head on straight) will never find a man who yells, calls names, punches walls, etc., attractive in the least. Every time you do it, she loses respect and attraction for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Aces, 
The two most powerful, primal drivers of male to female behavior seem to be sex and 'providing'. 

And a super powerful subset of 'providing', behaviors are rescue related. Damsel in distress stories are just as popular with men as women. 

Whether consciously or subconsciously your gf is starting down the path of 'I am falling apart', and need a big strong man to rescue me. I give her credit, as that is a hard impulse for a man to manage. 

But in this case, I think your lack of response to the email is causing her to realize that the dynamic between you has shifted. 

If you want you can always play the sympathy card without offering anything tangible. After a long long lag on the text, 'I am sorry you are not feeling the way you want to'. You can be kind without offering anything. You may get the 'I need a hug'. I would never refuse my wife a hug unless we were done and in process of divorce. 

I believe you that she isn't going to get visibly 'angry' herself, but since she is a shrink, you should be prepared for anything. At one end a mix of sex and appeals to your rescuer impulses. And at the far opposite end she will tease you and then reject you. Doing that to a sex deprived man is cruel, but surprisingly common.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Ace,

I agree that pulling back is the best advice for your situation. To that end, check out the 180 at the link below.

180 means changing your behaviors 180 degrees from what you're currently doing, which isn't working. What you've been trying to do is to engage her. Many men will actually follow their wives around the house trying to hit on the button that will cause her to stop what she's doing and engage. You need to stop that kind of behavior.

The 180 is about pulling back. It's about emotionally distancing yourself for a probable end of your relationship. And, sometimes, the other partner will recognize the shift in dynamic, realize that the relationship is in danger of ending, and recommit to the relationship.

You may not need a hard 180 yet. But look over the behaviors and think about implementing some of them when you get home.

Good luck.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Maybe beyond fixing now anyways.

You had a nice chat Monday morning. Then you told her she wasted and blew the whole weekend because you didn't have great sex. And then you sent her a nasty text message. And you are really really angry at her for the decline in sex.

How is that trying to engage her?

And then....
"She has sent sent me a couple of texts telling me how depressed and tired and how hard life is for her, and how she feels she's "cracking up". 

While you are busy laughing at her and deciding how best to manipulate the situation..... keep a simple "tactic" in mind.

Lack of sex in the bedroom is almost ALWAYS a symptom of something else going on in the relationship. 

Start with owing your behavior. Start with looking at how you treat people, and pulling back. I mean really looking at YOU. No angries, no getting even, no nastiness. That's all you own, really.

When you are done being nasty, ask yourself if maybe there is that other reason lurking around. And listen to what she is telling you. Read her texts again.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

deejov said:


> Maybe beyond fixing now anyways.
> 
> You had a nice chat Monday morning. Then you told her she wasted and blew the whole weekend because you didn't have great sex. And then you sent her a nasty text message. And you are really really angry at her for the decline in sex.
> 
> ...


Dejov,
thanks for a womens input ( you're a female right ?)

I think I read on another thread that you wrote that your husband is now doing all the right things and that you are falling back in love with him, but still will not have sex with him. ( please correct me if Im wrong )

Im interested in what the right things he's doing and what caused you to stop intimacy with him in the first place, and fall out of love with him and why if he is doing all the right things, you still don't want to be intimate with him ?

Yes I agree it may be beyond fixing...and Im pretty much ok with that...I deserve and can get better, and will be happy maybe happier without her.
I deserve to be happy and if Im with someone as a partner, Im a faithful, loyal partner/provider. I also expect the same back, and expect to build and happy fulfilling, fun life.
Is that an unreasonable expectation for a man to have ?

Yes I have made mistakes, so has she. I own and freely admit where Im wrong, and try to get better, her not so much

I do and will look at myself, Im not at all perfect, but I try to be a good person. I have been there for this women ( and her 2 children )in all ways, and have fixed and pretty much helped turned around her life. When I met her it was a mess, it wasn't all me by any means, I helped and guided her and she made the hard changes needed. I ask for very little in return

I have treated her as my partner, and equal, someone I love...but because of her actions, Im feeling resentful, cheated and used. Yes Im angry. Shouldn't i be angry ?
I've engaged her on this issue over the past 1-2years, I've given her time...Im starting to realise she likes the way it is, she wants me around to support her, financially, morally, and in raising her boys, etc she likes the good things i have brought to her life. Thats fine I like the good things she's brought to my life.
Why can't she give something back ?? she has no problems taking but can't give anything to fill my needs ??

yes the anger is bad, thats all on me and I need to stop it, but Im not on this forum trying to manipulate her, or laugh at her. Believe me I wish I didn't need to be here asking for advice on this issue. I am getting many caring, informative responses.
Im learnig that women think differently then men, Im also learning women view sex/intimacy differntly, I've learned that yelling/anger/intimaditing behavior causes great damage.
Im trying to get better and be a better partner and stop making mistakes that further damage our relationship
If I didnt care I would have just left, believe me I don't need her for anything material.

I love her and Im trying to make a effort before I just decide I would be happier without her in my life.
Thats why Im on this forum, not to learn how to manipulate her but how learn how she thinks so we can have a better relationship.

Its not all about sex at all..as I mentioned earlier sex is only 10% of a marriage when its good ( or even ok ) but 90 % when its bad. That is very true when its bad it poisons everything, the smallest most benign incidents which are nothing get magnified, it destroys all the balance and harmony.

I don't know your situation and why you won't be intimate with your husband, and Im not giving you advice but think about the above statement and how your lack of intimacy is making your husband feel, and how you and your marrige benefit from you withholding intimacy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ace, 
I want you to know something, if I thought you were being a jerk or a brute I would say so. I do believe you want to improve. I also believe that when you told her she was very selfish she basically agreed. 

I fully understand it is manipulative to do the freeze out I suggested. If I believed there was an alternative that worked I would suggest it. There isn't. Talking is seen as weakness. Indifference is seen as power. 

I also think it is utterly astonishing that deejov thinks it is fine for this woman to say in the same freaking breath: you aren't good enough for me to desire you, and to go the extra mile for, but your plenty good enough to hang around and do stuff for me and pay for things for me and some other man's kids. You did not have kids together. What is the basis for her sense of entitlements other than she has gotten away with this stuff her whole life?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I think it's utterly atonishing that sometimes a small point is overlooked...... sex is not paid for. It is not an entitlement, to all women. 

All women, that I know, do NOT have an attitude of "well, he pays the bills so I'll give him a blowjob". "he drove me to work so I"ll make sure he gets sex this weekend". Unless you are transactional. Not many women are. 

Really.... do you guys on this thread think women OWE you sex for paying the bills?

Most of us women are far more emotional than that. And quite a bit more impractical if you want to put it that way.

We either LIKE you men, and want to make you happy (sex) or we don't want to have sex because we are mad at you (you lost your temper, didn't do A, B, C, neglected us, etc) and we don't LIKE you at the moment. And sometimes a lot of us simply enjoy the intimacy.

It's very very difficult for a woman to have sex with a man she doesn't LIKE. Or respect. 

It has NOTHING to do with whether or not he paid the bills and did stuff for us. 

I pay most of the bills in our house. I make triple the income. And I also do most of the house stuff. 90% of it. I don't keep track. Stuff needs to be done to keep harmony. That's just life.
I stopped pointing and blaming a long time ago. I quit asking and whining about me, me, me. I started just looking at how I treat people. That's all that matters. Not what I judge other people about. But what I judge myself on. I'm not responsible for anyone else's soul except my own. Be nice. My motto.

Once you see someone's ugly side, that sticks with you for a long time. Take the blue pill and you see things from a whole new perspective. 

As a woman..... "letting" someone have sex with you is to be vulnerable. Ain't no way the ugly side of anybody is coming near me.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's easy to be non-transactional when you're on the taking side 100% of the time and never on the giving side. Then when you get called on it you just say you're not transactional and act all offended. Not you Dee, the op's wife. But god help the giver of all those things if he decides to stop giving. He gets called selfish and is told he is treating his wife like a prostitute for daring to suggest she give a little. She's the selfish one. She takes without giving.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

The word entitled comes to mind.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Working, I see your point. Being the giver sucks, but only if you are keeping score. Which means you aren't really giving. You are asking.

So make that clear. You expected something in return. 
It burns me sometimes to hear people score off all the things they have done for other people and calculate how they feel they have been slighted or not properly compensated. I think it's sad, actually.

I want to say.... "great job for being a good person". There is no payment, except the knowledge that you are a good person. Thank you for not being a jerk. I think it's important to realise that being a good person is the real gift here. 

To allow resentment to CHANGE your point of view.. to allow resentment to change who you are and focus on payment for being a good person just seems soooo sad.

That's why taking a few steps and cooling off (mild 180) sometimes helps. Helps you to spin to your center.
Then sometimes you can see the real issue. Sometimes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

D,
I believe this - transactional style - is a huge point. And equally that you do not operate in that manner. 

I understand "why" my tactics are unappealing. That said I will summarize this as best I am able:
- She freely acknowledges being selfish - which screams "entitled"
- If she does not like him, she needs to end it, she is currently cake eating. They don't have children together. 

I am struggling to buy into the idea that his anger is such a big problem for her when she would rather provoke him than own up to a mistake and apologize. 

As for this bit about "keeping score", I am not able to avoid that when the imbalance reaches a certain point. Because we aren't talking about helping someone who is sick or disabled. At a certain level of skew I start to feel taken advantage of and I don't like that. It really means the other person doesn't respect me, and does not value my love for them. 



deejov said:


> I think it's utterly atonishing that sometimes a small point is overlooked...... sex is not paid for. It is not an entitlement, to all women.
> 
> All women, that I know, do NOT have an attitude of "well, he pays the bills so I'll give him a blowjob". "he drove me to work so I"ll make sure he gets sex this weekend". Unless you are transactional. Not many women are.
> 
> ...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

As simply as possible....

Resentment breeds passive aggressive behavior.
So does anger. 

Provoking someone is a vague claim. That means you are not in control of your emotions if someone can provoke you. And it means you are trying to blame shift. 

Boundaries. Not blame. 

Selfishness breeds selfishness. So who wins? 

And yeah, she should leave if she doesn't like him. But in most cases.... whoever starts keeping score kinda has that responsibility. 
I think OP should consider leaving HER instead. 

It sounds to me like both of you are struggling to feel loved. Just not able to hear each other talk.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

deejov said:


> As simply as possible....
> 
> Resentment breeds passive aggressive behavior.
> So does anger.
> ...


Yes I am seriously considering leaving her, and I like your idea of a soft 180. 
Yes I need to be in control of my emotions, I own that. No argument on that issue.


Pulling back/reset/the 180 .. its allowing me to get more control of my emotions in regards to her.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Ace,
> I want you to know something, if I thought you were being a jerk or a brute I would say so. I do believe you want to improve. I also believe that when you told her she was very selfish she basically agreed.
> 
> I fully understand it is manipulative to do the freeze out I suggested. If I believed there was an alternative that worked I would suggest it. There isn't. Talking is seen as weakness. Indifference is seen as power.
> ...


MEM, re the "freeze out/pull back/180, it may be manipulative or may just be a better way to somewhat detach and deal with less emotions and avoid getting angry.
I've tried talking, counciling, pleading, reasoning, debating, doing more housework, gifts, loving acts, paying bills, yelling, fighting, temper tantrums, tried all of it. the only effect it has has been to make me more unhappy, angry, She's been fine through it all, it hasn't seemed to affect her at all, the only time I have been able to get any type of reaction is if I get really angry, otherwise she just doesn't respond.

She says she had to be selfish to get through life..med school, divorce, being a single mother getting no child support and little support from childrens father, and working full time while going through a divore with 2 children age 1 and 3.

As for what is basis for feeling entitled, Im not sure, but she's smart and attractive and can be charming and I think this has helped alot in getting what she wants, but I think she may end up being too demanding and often people get tired of it. She has a harder time with women at work her charms don't work very well with them, or maybe women generally are not so nice to each other (IMHO) 

Pulling back has allowed me to detach a little, Im less angry, resentful and happier.
Im out of town for work this week and she knows when she "picks a fight " before I leave Im irritable, miserable and she can push my buttons and I respond in negative fashion the whole week. 
This week Im just happier and not angry because Ive pulled back and she's not my priority.
Its been good for both of us.
I dont know if this is going to save my relationship but Im just much happier

*for those interested in a report of my Pull Back and what I've been doing, heres a detailed report.*
*Monday sept/24 * left home to work out of town for next 7 days.
was angry, disapointed with her and told her in no uncertain terms. sent a nasty text message.
No further contact

*Tuesday Sept/25* in evening texted her cause I had missed call from her house and texted did one your boys call me , I missed the call ....she responded quickly saying they may have and they were having a hard time....I waited an hour and texted what did they want and what is problem...she texted back quickly told me issues and since there was nothing for me to do I didn't respond.
*
Wedenesday Sept/26 * No contact

*Thursday Sept/27* she had sent me a long email at 7am telling me she was heavy/broken hearted and loved me, and I was so special and kind in so many ways but couldn't have sex with me because of my rage and cruelty with that issue ( I really don't know how she arrived at that ) and she didn't know what to do.
I was a little worried and called her, we spoke and there was no yelling , we were just both just sad, there were no I love you's
I did apoligise for my words and anger on the day i| left and said I would handle all future issues in calm manner.

same day at about 1pm she emailed me again telling me how depressed she was and how she was having hard tim functioning at work.
I didnt respond to either email

At 11pm I texted her a cheerful message about someone I work with and asked what she was doing, she responded quickly saying she was almost asleep....I waited a while and texted good nite and cheerfully told that I was worried abut her and I would have called but I had to go to the gym and then to eat.



*Friday Sept/28* at 7am when she woke she responded to my late nite text saying : Im worried about me too. 
I didnt respond and at 740 am she sent email telling me what a hard year it has been for her with her kids, how hard and difficult her job, complained about several issues regarding day to day tasks and stated that she is exhausted, depressed and barely hanging on.

I waited a while and texted her that I was sorry it was so hard for her.

we texted back and forth 3 or 4 times, I always waited a while to reply, her replies came pretty quick, I remained cheerful and made a joke out of the situation and got a smile. I terminated the series of texts by not responding to one of her texts.

Friday evening I initiated series of texts by asking if some furniture we had ordered had arrived, she responded immediatly and sent me pics of furniture.

It was a nice series of texts, we texted back and forth 4 -5 times, cheerful, happy about furniture.
BUT I may have made a mistake, I texted her : Give me a call I have time to chat. She didnt call or text back.

I ignored and didnt text her further or call.

*Sat Sept 29* she texted me at 730 am saying she just now got my last message about giving me a call, wrote her phone had no power left and she went to sleep so just got it now. 

I didn't respond for an hour or so and in the meantime her son called me just to say hello... we had brief but nice chat.
I then responded to her text, saying no problem you didn't call.
She called a few minutes later and had a we had pleasant talk and laughed some.

She texted me a few times through day, i sometimes responded.

9 pm she called to talk, pleasant talk, I ended call after 10 min saying I had work to do, and that I would call later....I thought about calling but didnt. I did text her once about a topic and she replied immediately.


She knows if I ask her to call when Im out of town or call her and get ignored, Its one of my buttons and I can get irritated at times by this.
So Im not sure if it was attempt to see how I responded, and see if this would get me irritated or if she just didn't want to talk , or simply the phone lost power ??

Usually when Im out of town we speak on phone in morning when she drives to work, sometimes around 6pm when she drives back and then usually before she sleeps, and we often text a few times during day.
So amount of communication was way down but has been increasing from her over past 2 days.


Well thats whats been going on during my attempt to do the Pull Back.


Any thoughts/input/advice/critisism would be appreciated, and thanks for all the advice and support I've had from all.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

deejov said:


> I think it's utterly atonishing that sometimes a small point is overlooked...... sex is not paid for. It is not an entitlement, to all women.
> 
> All women, that I know, do NOT have an attitude of "well, he pays the bills so I'll give him a blowjob". "he drove me to work so I"ll make sure he gets sex this weekend". Unless you are transactional. Not many women are.
> 
> ...


DEEJOV, 
If its so hard for a women to have sex with a man she doesn't love/respect then then why are they even together and living under the same roof ??

I absolutely do not feel Im "owed" sex for paying the bills or doing acts of kindness/chores etc for my partner.
Im not keeping score, and I dont want "pity" sex, I want love and intimacy/connection in all ways from my partner.
I sure would not want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't "like" me or respect me.

Its NOT all about sex, its about respect, caring for the feelings of another and love. 
no marriage is perfect and if my partner did something to anger me or vice versa, it happens all the time, So we argue maybe no sex for a day or 2 then make up, and let it go. But to withhold sex for months, years make the bedroom into a battlground is crazy, everyone loses...we have many other things to argue about, its just manipulitive. Arguing about sex is pointless.

If one doesn't want sex with your partner, just tell them, don't dangle it like a carrot then take it away, and then act surprised and offended if he/she get angry. 
Yes people are resposible for controlling their emotions, but to know someones weakness and to exploit it and intentionaly provoke is also wrong. 
Tell the partner the truth and let them decide if they want to stay or go.
Or even better if one spouse is so miserable then just end it, why stay in something like that.

If one truly loves their partner and has low desire, fine, tell your partner and show your partner you care enough to work on ways to improve this part of the relationship.

If I need someone to share expenses I'd get a roomate, if i need childcare would get a babysitter. I wouldn't be emotionly involved with any of them.

I agree with you if I see someones ( my partners) "ugly side" and its unacceptable to me, I would have to terminate the relationship having or not having sex would not even be an issue


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

"We either LIKE you men, and want to make you happy (sex) or we don't want to have sex because we are mad at you (you lost your temper, didn't do A, B, C, neglected us, etc) and we don't LIKE you at the moment. And sometimes a lot of us simply enjoy the intimacy.
" funny you say that but say men are not entitled because they do things right
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

homebuilder,
Yup, that's about right. 

The whole point I was trying to make is the sense of vulnerability.
Reading what OP's wife has said recently just re-enforces this.

_Thursday Sept/27 she had sent me a long email at 7am telling me she was heavy/broken hearted and loved me, and I was so special and kind in so many ways but couldn't have sex with me because of my rage and cruelty with that issue ( I really don't know how she arrived at that ) and she didn't know what to do._

At the core.... most of us women are physically afraid of men.
There has to be a trust there. Most men are much stronger, bigger, capable of seriously harming us. And when a woman has kids.... there is also the subsconcioius aspect of protecting them as well. 

Add to that, the ultimatiums and many conversations in the past about "things must change or else". And the responsive anger to not getting it. 

It can take a much longer time than "I'm sorry for yesterday" for someone to get over that and trust themselves to be vulnerable. Especially if it has happened MANY times in the past.

Why do women stay? Because they love their spouse. But that doesn't always translate to feeling SAFE enough to be vulnerable.

The thing that makes me respond to your posts, OP, is your wife is currently pouring out her feelings and telling you how she feels. She seems to be looking for support. She seems to be trying to tell you that she is afraid of you, emotionally unavailable.

Yes, you probably need to pull back and cool off.
But are you hearing her? Are you willing to help her trust you again? Or are you too resentful ?


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

deejov said:


> homebuilder,
> Yup, that's about right.
> 
> The whole point I was trying to make is the sense of vulnerability.
> ...


Deejov..
Im not too resentful and I have ALWAYS been there for her.
To be honest I don't think she's looking for support, she's trying to appeal to me to "save" her...and when I do that all goes back to the status quo ( I do all for her while Im taken for granted)
I've been through this several times before.
If I thought she was really in trouble I would be there.


Yes I need to pull back/cool off..its been good for my peace of mind.

Im really sorry I need to play these games with her, but as long Im Mr Nice guy then she treats me with disrespect in many ways , not just sex.


Do women really stay because they love their spouse ? Or in my case is it because she has 2 young children, and she's knows I bring some stability and good things into her and her childrens lives ??

What about a man's vulnerability ??? Dont we get to feel hurt ?
We feel used, ignored, discarded and thats ok ??

Physically afraid ?? not an issue with me...its repugnant to physically abuse a women.

Am I willing to help her trust me again ???? Really ?? I've been there for her the whole time, she's been my priority....shouldn't repairing/regaining trust be a 2 way street, shouldnt she be helping me trust her ???


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> I think it's utterly atonishing that sometimes a small point is overlooked...... sex is not paid for. It is not an entitlement, to all women.
> 
> All women, that I know, do NOT have an attitude of "well, he pays the bills so I'll give him a blowjob". "he drove me to work so I"ll make sure he gets sex this weekend". Unless you are transactional. Not many women are.
> 
> Really.... do you guys on this thread think women OWE you sex for paying the bills?


I do agree with the first paragraph. The presentation of the second and third makes me a little uneasy.

So, for the first part, I agree sex is not paid for. But I don't like your use of the word "entitlement". It carries a connotation of "you really have not done enough to deserve it". And that gets to another issue - what do you ladies think when refusing?

So you see your man striving at work to get ahead and provide for the household, working long hours and commuting, putting up with demanding and potentially ungrateful colleagues, to support you (at least partially). When you see him busting his ass and still feel meh about sex with him, then what? Sorry to say, I'll bet the answer often is not "wow, I'm not giving enough back and I need to think about taking less".

For the rest of it, I would not use the word "owe". When you have to get to that you've already lost. I would expect my wife to realize "he is consistently dedicated to meeting my needs and I need to be equally dedicated to his". 

I _would_ expect my wife to periodically evaluate her contribution and the state of the marriage. If sex is continually a problem I would expect her to say "he works hard day-in and day-out for me and yet I am unmotivated to provide for him. I need to figure out why I'm not doing more for him and figure out what I can do to restore balance".

So, it is not about transactions - "he pays the bills and she owes him". It _is_ about recognizing when he comes to the relationship dedicated to your needs and resolving your self to be equally dedicated to his, even though it would may (at least in the short term) to continue to take.

IMHO, where I think this process breaks down is that men (by nature and nurture) and more designed to be givers and women are more designed to be takers. You take a lady (particularly an LD) whose husband is working hard to provide and not getting much back. Restoring balance to the marriage is going to require the lady to give more and/or take less at some level. Unless he forces the issue, you are asking her to proactively sacrifice for no direct benefit (which runs against the grain for many).

That's why I say this is as much a respect and character issue as a sex and relationship issue. Preferably, when faced with these issues, a lady would work to restore her drive or, at least, find a way to cheerfully provide regardless. However, the lady always has the choice to say:

"I'm sorry, but I don't like you in that way (or I'm very low drive, or I have other priorities) and it's just not going to happen. I'm owning this as my issue and, while I hope you get enough out of this relationship non-sexually to continue to the current dynamic, that seems unrealistic and I will accept and treat you fairly if you decide to redirect your efforts or leave altogether."

Now, how often do you see that? I've seen it once here on TMB, and never anywhere else online (or IRL). Most ladies, when push comes to shove, cop out with "you need money to live - you don't need sex", or only grudgingly accept less spousal attention, or threaten/inflict revenge. Yet, men are accused of taking advantage of the women :scratchhead:


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> So make that clear. You expected something in return. It burns me sometimes to hear people score off all the things they have done for other people and calculate how they feel they have been slighted or not properly compensated. I think it's sad, actually.


I agree, and this is something I should have noted in my earlier post. But, sometimes there are two sides to this issue.

See, the problem is that many times what is freely given is deemed inadequate by the receiver. The receiver demands more. The consequence is that by demanding more, the receiver obligates himself or herself to give more in return, but often does not want to concede that obligation. Again, it's a character and respect issue.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejov,
I am genuinely confused by your posts. 

Do you really believe we should pay no attention to the "balance" in a relationship? 

Are you saying that you would be fine "be a loving and giving partner open ended" to a spouse who was not being loving back?

Because it sure seems like you expected a lot better treatment from your H. And from what you posted your expectations seemed reasonable to me as was your anger and resentment when he chose not to prioritize you. 

And at some core level you have 'shut down' on him hence the lack of desire. So the comment about it "burning you when people keep track" - maybe I am not understanding it. 

I sure as heck don't keep track of every nice thing we do for each other. I do pay attention to mis-steps - hers and mine - to try to identify and manage patterns. 

As for women/men anger/size and fear I agree. As the bigger/stronger partners we need to manage overt displays of emotional aggression. 




deejov said:


> homebuilder,
> Yup, that's about right.
> 
> The whole point I was trying to make is the sense of vulnerability.
> ...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejov,
> I am genuinely confused by your posts.
> 
> Do you really believe we should pay no attention to the "balance" in a relationship?
> ...


I know it's confusing.
It was to me for awhile too.

And I "picked up " a sense of "what have you done for me lately" here on TAM. It's logical, really. AT some point, one should or must start keeping track and stop being a giver if you are not fairly getting back. (if your spouse isn't meeting your needs, then stop meeting theirs).

I'm not going to argue if it's right or wrong. 
It is wrong for me, though.

If you put the above logic together with "you only control yourself", what do you get? I don't know either. It doesn't make any sense... to ME. 

A balance of each person monitoring whether or not their needs are being met... or a balance of BOTH partners focusing on giving.

Wish I could draw a diagram.

Method 1
A - focuses on whether or not her needs are met and acts accordingly.

B - focuses on whether or not his needs are met and acts accordingly.
__________________________________________
OR
Method 2
A - focuses on how they treat people, and controlling their own emotions and behaviors.

B- focuses on how they treat people, and controlling their own emotions and behaviors.
___________________________________________
Whats the difference if the outcome is the same

If you are basing your happiness on whether or not your needs are met, then there are a lot of factors in your way. Stress, for one. The other hurdle is you cannot control another person... you simply cannot make them do what you want them to do. You can cajole, threaten, etc and if they really loved you, they would do it. Does the battle ever end, only if both are willing to compromise and its a good match in the first place. Basically the root of traditional marriage.

If you are basing your happiness on a sense of self being.... you are focused on yourself. You seek out your own happiness and sense of self worth. It makes you happy to do nice things for people. There is a realisation of how your actions affect others. 
There is a knowledge of what your boundaries are, what your goals are, and what your purpose in life is. Your spouse is a compliment to your happiness, not the source of it. 

What happens when your spouse is still focused on their own needs, and you are focused on your own actions.

Emotional detachment.


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

Well head back to the house later today after a week away.

She called a few times on sunday and we had nice, cheerful chats.
I haven't called her once over the week and initiated texts only a few times all week.

Going to be different continuing pull back when I see her everyday, and sleep in same bed.

I have sensed some change in her behavior will see how things are when I go back.

Not going to push for intimacy yet, will just see how things feel.

Thanks all for advice and different viewpoints.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

deejov said:


> The thing that makes me respond to your posts, OP, is your wife is currently pouring out her feelings and telling you how she feels. She seems to be looking for support. She seems to be trying to tell you that she is afraid of you, emotionally unavailable.


I disagree. I see the GF's words as little more than retroactive justification. And the thing is, it gets the time line wrong. The GF argues that she can't be sexual with the OP because of his anger. But his anger comes from a lack of sex. It's the effect, not the cause.

If I stole your purse, and you turned me in to the police, it would make no sense for me to claim that I only stole your purse because you called the cops.

Now, I will admit that it is possible that the OP's actions have diminished his GF's lust for him. And I will acknowledge that his anger isn't helping her feel lust for him. But his anger isn't what caused her to initially stop having sex with him. I don't know if that cause was age/hormones, a need to manipulate, or something else. But it wasn't anger.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Yelling at me over this will get you nowhere. Hounding is very off putting as well.

My husband not once ever complained about me rejecting him. We actually went nearly a year with nothing(I was recovering from an injury). Instead he went on and found something else to do. Now the tables have turned and I never get angry when rejected. I give my husband the same respect he gave me. It's frustrating yes, but I find other things to occupy my mind. Actually my husband has never yelled or screamed at me which is a blessing. I do the same for him.

After being together the newness wares off. I do think your coming off a tad bit strong though. A softer approach would be better. If the spark was there in the beginning, you can find it again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejov,
I also wish for diagramming tools . I like the "theme" of what can I do for you. 

I agree this is a very difficult subject. Difficult for everyone in a marriage. Below is the gold standard for "ME". I don't always follow it, but I try. 

Lets exclude physical sickness/forces beyond their control.  It isn't depression if they continue to engage in all the activities THEY want to do  

I am noticing a repeated pattern I don't like
1. I ask why it is happening. This is not a "why are you being a bltch". More like "it seems that .... is everything ok"? 

If you generally aren't "needy" and your partner loves and respects you, this question is often all it takes to get your partner to want to address it. 

2. The pattern persists (this is where I used to get angry and loud which is lame, pathetic, disrespectful, childish and drum roll please: counter productive) when it is clearly a decision

So she knows and nothing is changing. At this point talking about it is counter productive. So there is a core respect/effort issue and your spouse is blowing it off. Focus more on you and less on them. 

I have said this before "I love you" is a compound statement meaning:
- I love the essence of what is "you" and
- I love how you treat me overall




deejov said:


> I know it's confusing.
> It was to me for awhile too.
> 
> And I "picked up " a sense of "what have you done for me lately" here on TAM. It's logical, really. AT some point, one should or must start keeping track and stop being a giver if you are not fairly getting back. (if your spouse isn't meeting your needs, then stop meeting theirs).
> ...


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Very well said, MEM.

Somedays I really need to EAT before I type on the screen. Then I don't sound like a half brained wit. And sometimes I really am. Until I eat. ha ha

I guess the message I was trying to get across was one said a hundred times ---- the point of disengaging from "what about me" is to allow BOTH of you a chance to recover from a sense of selfishness.

And yeah, I do have a minor aggravation at (mostly men) blowing off what a woman says. Feelings can't be proven true. Can they? 
"It's manipulation--- she doesn't mean it--- she's just playing".

Not to generalize, but that's the whole root cause of mis-communication, and a bigger cause of why people STOP talking altogether. 

I'm not certain any person on this earth could justify saying my feelings are wrong. They're mine. They may change in five minutes. 

But if the actions don't match the words, you got a problem.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejov, 
Nothing in your prior posts sounded foolish or hypo-g combative. 

This morning my W said something mildly annoying before I'd eaten. I felt intense anger and recognized it as such. Masked, ate, was happy.


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## homebuilder (Aug 25, 2012)

maybe u shouldnt keep score but i think that is human nature. if one spouse constantly does for and gives in for the other with no reciprocation that is a problem. i dont mind doing things for my wife even we i dont want to but she doesnt mind telling me no. i dont want to start be rude and non compromising because thars not who i am. sometimes i will ask my wife for something sexual and she will say no because she wants to do something she wants to do and five minutes later ask me to go walk with her. how do u handle that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

homebuilder said:


> i dont want to start be rude and non compromising because thars not who i am. sometimes i will ask my wife for something sexual and she will say no because she wants to do something she wants to do and five minutes later ask me to go walk with her. how do u handle that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think it's all about balance. For the record, being alpha isn't about being a jerk, or being rude, or bullying your wife. It's about being assertive, having boundaries, standing up for yourself, and assuming a leadership role in your home. Now, to a long-time beta, that will feel like being an insufferable jerk. But it's not. You just have to keep it up until it feels natural.

As for handling rejection, it depends. If you consistently prioritize your wife more than she prioritizes you, then you need to adjust. Not in a tit-for-tat way. But, in a general, you matching her level of interest way. If it's just a one-time rejection because something came up, then you should just let it go.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HB, 
Read married man sex life. 
Without context I have no basis for an opinion. I would suggest that you ask yourself some questions:
- is your wife generally in a mode where she expects you to do what she wants, but is very casual saying no to you about anything, including sex? 
- did she ask you to walk because she wants more quality time or is that some sort of consolation prize for rejecting sex? 
- do you two have some compromise frequency? 
- do you know how to get her turned on when she starts out not turned on


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

homebuilder said:


> maybe u shouldnt keep score but i think that is human nature. if one spouse constantly does for and gives in for the other with no reciprocation that is a problem. i dont mind doing things for my wife even we i dont want to but she doesnt mind telling me no. i dont want to start be rude and non compromising because thars not who i am. sometimes i will ask my wife for something sexual and she will say no because she wants to do something she wants to do and five minutes later ask me to go walk with her. how do u handle that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With no reciprocation can be a problem, to you, if you feel that your actions are "reciprocable" or you should get something in return. 

I'm not saying that's wrong... I'm asking if your wife realises that you connect doing things for her with her saying no for sex? If she does clearly knows this, then no doubt I would be disgruntled about it too. 

My only other comment is she asked you to go for a walk... maybe she was looking for some hand-holding, talking? Sometimes that can help lead to other intimacy?


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

i know im opening a can of worms but wasn't impressed with the book.
there was some good tips on keeping the passion alive and how to alpha or beta up. but as this marriage saying guide....... not buying it.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Ace.
I'll offer an additional thought. I believe you are engaging too much. Why are you having all this conversation with her? You need to be pulling back further. Take time for yourself and deprioritize her. 

Quite frankly, I'm not certain why you would stay with this woman. Not married, no kids together....There is a whole world of women looking for great guys. Why waste time with a bait and switch artist who has really no respect for you needs and desires?


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## MarriedToTheOne (Apr 22, 2015)

Some major points:

How To Schedule Sex, For Skeptics | Samantha Rodman PhD

Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Ten Relationship Myths


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> I have a link, if you wish to read the full list. 3-4 pages


I will admit that I really haven't read any of your threads, but you have given very good advice to Ace.

Would you post that link? It might help quite a few people. Or is that your thermostat thread you posted earlier?


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## ace21 (Sep 25, 2012)

Hi,

Its been more then 3 years since I posted on this thread.
My life now is great !!! 100 % better then it was when I originally began this thread.
thank you for the great advice, it was better than any therapist.
The collective wisdom of the TAM community is golden and was a huge part of saving me, I don't think I would have been able to do this without TAM.

I wanted to give everyone who took the time to advise me a follow up.
As most of you figured since I stopped writing here I went back to her.
That's correct.
Nothing changed, she continued to take and I gave and gave, neglected my own children, neglected myself and my needs, spent my money/time all on her needs.
in 2013 took her to Hawaii because she wanted to for her birthday, took her and her children on summer trip ( didn't take my children)
intimacy and sex issues did not improve at all, they even got worse. 
Tried to keep my mouth shut and not be angry with her, I would often go to gym before coming home when I'd be frustrated to get my frustrations out in a hard work out.
I was miserable.

I did think and reread the advice on this thread, I didn't like what I read and in my mind kept making excuses for her actions/behavior and to be honest I knew the advice TAM gave was likely right but was hard to hear.
I was deep in the fog.
we were seeing 3 therapists !!! 1 for me, 1 for her and 1 for couples therapy. 
NOTHING CHANGED, JUST MORE EXCUSES AND BAD BEHAVIOR

In sept/2013 she did something that really crossed my limits and I knew I had to get out.
we had an argument and she was clearly in the wrong but she just kept playing her manipulation games and I left and moved into my own place.

It was very hard and lonely for a while ( I missed her and the familiarity of the relationship)
took advice of TAM and did things for myself, went to the gym, worked, played golf, spent more time with my children, etc. started to feel good again and started doing things I enjoyed again.
It was like a cloud was lifting....I was getting out of the fog.
took about 6 months to get completely out.
she did try to get me back several times but I did not fall for it and stayed away.
I'm so happy now and my life is great !!!

Shortly after I left her I met and started seeing a beautiful lady, who helped me get everything back together.
She helped get me through a very tough, unhappy period in my life and also saved me.
we are now married and she is the total opposite of the women I posted about here in 2012.
she is a partner, helps to make our lives better and is loving. We both give to each other and help each other, the way I thought a relationship should be, and sex is NEVER an issue. 
Sex life is fantastic.
EVERYTHING CHANGED for the better, my relationship with my kids is good again, I'm doing well at work and my finances are back in order. I'm happy again.

For anyone who finds my story in this thread familiar and is in a similar situation, please listen to the advice that was given to me, especially that it will not get better and to end the relationship.
the Advice was 100 % right. 
please listen and save yourself, it will hurt and be hard for a few months but then everything will get much better

now looking back and rereading what I posted in 2012, I can't believe that I wrote the things I wrote in this thread !!
I sound pathetic, I'm embarrassed that I could have been such a fool when the answer was right in front of me : LEAVE HER!!!

But that's what happens when one is in the fog, just glad I got out of the fog and couldn't have done it without the help of the TAM community. 

thank you all for all the great advice, although it was tough to hear it saved me from staying in a relationship that was toxic and would have destroyed me.


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