# What do I do? Please Help!!!



## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

Okay everyone let me start out by saying this is a complete mess and I really do not know where to begin. I have been with my wife for 12 years and married for 9 almost 10. We have two beautiful daughters and I will say I love this woman to death. But over the past two years it seems like we are getting nowhere with each other. Let me start this by saying yes she was unfaithful once in the past and we talked about it a little bit. It was while she was pregnant with our first daughter. She actually came back and I took her back in. It died down for a little while and we always had good times. But she is always flirtatious and always has to be the life of the party. Which kind of irks me in a sense. But I look past all of that. We had financial problems and had to move in with my parents I found a new job and she was not working at the time. Well needless to say I decided to go back to school and get my degree. I decided that working would be wiser when we had our first child. Things weren't bad at all and we always joked about living with my parents forever. I never wanted it that way of course. It was only temporary until I finished college. Well we ran into some people and became friends with them and we found ourselves hanging out with them frequently. You know drinking and having good times. Well this went on for a while our sex life got better. Until I found some text messages to the lady's husband in a sexual manner. She told me they were nothing but a joke about getting prescription pills that she started to dabble in. I did not I did not like it at all. And I asked her to stop. Well needless to say I let it go. Until I find that she and this guy were conversing frequently at odd hours and for long periods of time. And then came to find out from his wife that when she was hanging there by herself during the week the wife would go to bed and she would be there till 4 in the morning. Of course this started to make me angry and then it caused the wife and my wife to not be friends anymore. But she continues to talk to this man. And we fought about it a lot. Well needless to say she said she was divorcing me in July and I started sleeping downstairs. Oh I forgot she has also had 6 deaths in the past 18 months in her family all that I have been there for her as well. Well I did that for a month and on my birthday we fought all day about our relationship. So I was going to sleep downstairs but she asked me to come upstairs so we could talk. We talked and we agreed to put all of this behind us and work on our relationship. Well Let's say things were going okay for a bit and we took our kids on vacation. Well I had enough of this little fling that she continued to keep up do not know if there is really an affair but everything I see leads that way. And on top of it I found more prescription medication that did not belong to her and I questioned her about it because she said she was not doing it anymore. She would not tell me who she got them from and I told her I was threatened to call the cops on her. But I didn't. Well I decided maybe we should try marriage counseling. She said she would go I ended up going by myself for the first visit and I told the counselor everything about me what I did and I told a little bit about her behavior. Well the counselor was in agreement that she is lying to me about something. Well we fought all week and we were talking good by that friday well she agreed to going and working through our problems. The appointment comes and she gets out of control on the way there and it ends up in her getting physical. I bit my tongue and did nothing needless to say we ended up missing the appointment. So that leads me to this week. We barely talked the beginning of the week and I made an attempt to say that things weren't that bad. And we should just try to see if we can work things out. Well she says that we are better off as friends and be civil for our children. But she continues to wear her rings and act like we are married wherever we go. But she says we as a couple are not an option. She has seen a lawyer once and said it would take two to three months to start the process. She will not move out and this morning we were talking like nothing is happening. Not saying I love you but we are talking like we aren't fighting. And I have backed off on trying to work things out with her. But does anyone have an opinion on what is going on here? I really love her and I don't want to get divorced or separated. I mean what do I do? Please help me.


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## thestruggle (Nov 5, 2010)

I really feel for you! This sounds really difficult. When you can take time to take care of you and your needs. It's tough I can imagine when you have kids. 

I've found some comfort here on this site already in just a few hours of chatting with people. 




> Well she says that we are better off as friends and be civil for our children


I think that sounds good. It's like at work we might not like everyone but we must be civil. That is good for kids to see. They learn from and become adults similar to how Mom and Dad acted. 




> But she continues to wear her rings and act like we are married wherever we go. But she says we as a couple are not an option.


Here I disagree with her. She can't have her cake and eat it too. If she's not wanting to be a couple in marriage then that's the facts. You and her don't need to advertise it to everyone, but you and her will become independent of each other when you divorce. For her the next little while is about working towards that. 



> this morning we were talking like nothing is happening. Not saying I love you but we are talking like we aren't fighting.


I see this often in my home. The wife is harsh with me all day and then later acts like she hasn't been a rabid dog all morning.
She plays the same game as your wife... what? Nothing's wrong. 

It's infuriating but there's something useful to it. It's about getting on with life. You gotta keep eating, going to work, bathing, feeding the kids, and it's easier when things are going ahead as normal. 

But last she said, she doesn't want to be married and is pursuing divorce. Don't fight her on her choice, let her make her own path. You can lead by example, but she still will make her own choice. If she wants to go, you can't stop her. 

It sounds like you've got a good number of reasons why you might want to 'quit hanging on'. 

You love her, but read your own post... there's quite a few things she's become a and been doing that you don't like. 
Are you ready to accept them for what they are?

When you say the fight in the car "became physical"... how much of that was you and how much was her?


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

The became physical part was all her. I have never laid a hand on her. She has always been violent and I have never fought back. It is difficult to accept the fact that it has come this far. I am still getting mixed signals from her she will not move out and she says she has no place to go. But she has family close by even though I do not agree with the practices that go on in those places. It is just sad because I see her turning out just like her mother. I can remember all the times when she would get on her mother for the behavior she is exhibiting. I still am getting mixed signals from her all day. The only thing that is mind boggling to me is the fact that she says she has not started the divorce process yet and she says she has to wait two to three months to start it. I seen an attorney after I found out she went to one and they said they could get started right away. I mean what gives?


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## thestruggle (Nov 5, 2010)

RayRays1981 said:


> The fact that she says she has not started the divorce process yet and she says she has to wait two to three months to start it. I seen an attorney after I found out she went to one and they said they could get started right away. I mean what gives?


You might be onto something there. If she's a self centered person who wants to have things her way, 
Maybe she trying to set up a situation in her favor; like she will have her boy toy on the side, her husband 'the sucker' to take care of her kids and pay bills.

By always threating with divorce and never following through is she making threats to manipulate you? What do parents do to make kids behave... the 'punishment' is always looming right?

The physical abuse in the car says volumes. Dont' think for a second that because you're a guy and she's a girl that physical abuse doesn't matter. That's a "deal breaker". If it's happened once it's likely going to be a pattern. Is that what you want your kids to be raised with? 

" It is difficult to accept the fact that it has come this far."

I hear ya. .. feels unreal...like a nightmare right?


If she's assaulting you, whats stopping you from taking the kids and going? Women need to do this often... why different for us guys? Who wants to live with needing to defend from someone you live with? That might happen in a bad neighbourhood on the street, but sure as hell not in my own home!


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

The problem is we live with my parents so where else can I go? I mean she doesn't want to leave and says she has nowhere to go. But yet she has no problem going wherever the hell she goes and leaving me with the kids. She always says I'm going to my mom's house which maybe true for a bit because she sends me pics of the puppy that we are taking from my mother-in-law? There's just alot of bs going on that I don't know about. I mean I do love her and understand I have made my mistakes. She says she is tired of me accusing her of things. But her behavior is what makes me that way. And she says its a relief we will be done. But still expects me to do and do and do. She treats the kids like garbage and has hit me in front of our older daughter. And then threatened to take the kids away from me. My oldest daughter does not want to go with her but my youngest doesn't know any better. I tried everything to make her stop her bs. But she says I'm doing nothing wrong and says that I'm not giving up a "friend" for you. So I said whatever do what you want. And I have been being indifferent to her and just agreeing with what she says. I now go to the gym and just do things on my own for the past two weeks and not even talked about our relationship with her. I do want her back if she could see the light. I think she needs to see a counselor by herself becasue she has a very bad past.


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## thestruggle (Nov 5, 2010)

> then threatened to take the kids away from me


another manipulative tactic from her

You need to make a list of her manipulative tricks. Keep it in your mind or in a private place somewhere. She IS abusive. That is a fact. 

Make some absolute decisions about what is acceptable to you in your home and what is not. Make a decision if her manipulative abuse will or will not be tolerated by you. Think of what your children are seeing and learning is acceptable day by day. Be strong for them and for yourself. When you feel even like you can't, just try for one more step. You just might succeed. 

When you say "whatever" to her, you feel like giving up. I know. This is a very common thing to say in marriage when fighting. Think about what it means however. Are you really willing to tolerate and accept "however" she acts, "whatever" she wants? NO!!!!! You must draw some boundaries about what you will tolerate and what you won't. She may cross them, but that still remains totally unacceptable to you. Be clear with yourself, her and your children about what is right to you and what is wrong. 

When it comes to moving out.... you live with your parents. Why? You need some source of income to pay for your own apartment. That might be a first step you need to take/ have taken. 

Has your family seen this abuse since you live with them? Do they tolerate this going on in their home? Yes, she's your wife, and they may think that if you tolerate it then they will say nothing. But it is their home, their rules. If it's time for her to go get her own place, it's your parents decision. 

They'd be right to do so. She's wanting to separate, she's assaulting you in front of the children, she's cheating (do we know this for a fact?)... what else.....?


"and even when your hope is gone, move along, just to make it through"


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes they have seen the abuse and they have been in it as well. There has been occasions where she has come home before I go to work drunk and who knows what else starts a fight with me and then says she is taking the kids at that point when she is drunk. The last time it happened my dad called the cops and her and my mom got to works she pushed my dad and my mom and her were yelling she called my mom the "b" word and pushed her and my om slapped her back. No charges were filed but reports were taken. I was assaulted but did not say anything. She did this in July when she said she wanted a divorce. And when I found her drugs. And when we were on on way to the counselor. Don't get me wrong I know it's tough living in your in-laws. I put up living with mine for a while until she and her aunt got into it. Then we lived on our own until I had to take a lay off because of downsizing and the economy and had to settle for a crap job until I am done with college. The thing is she always says she wants the kids and such. But she has no problem leaving the house for however long she likes and leaves me watching them. Another thing is that she does absolutely nothing. I cook, clean, help the kids with homework, you name it. The only thing she does is laundry, run, and put us deeper and deeper into debt. The more I talk about it the more it makes me want to just tell her to get out. But she'll take the kids. Last night she supposedly was at her moms she comes home with a new coat, and says I can't wait to get the money so I can get this divorce and get child support from you so I can get my own place. I went to a lawyer today and I got some insight on what to do. But I need to find someway to get the money to start the proceedings first. My parents have offered to help. And she says that is playing dirty. I can't help it you don't have family to help you out. That's your problem if you have to do what you need to do. I am. I'm just sick of always having this nightmare come to life. I told her she needs to come to her senses and get help cause she is a problem just as much as I am. And she says there is nothing wrong with me its all you. Oh well. If it isn't going to come from me then it's going to come somewhere down the line. Her mother even said she doesn't believe either one of us and doesn't really care what happens to either one of us. Only her grandkids. Which is fine. This has nothing to do with her. And she should stay out of it. I just wish she would wake up cause shes not just hurting me but shes hurting her daughters as well. By keep doing this back and forth crap.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Ray, I agree with Struggle that your W is abusive both physically and emotionally. 


RayRays1981 said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on what is going on here? ...I mean what do I do? Please help me.


Ray, the behaviors you are describing are classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Whether those traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria is a determination that only a professional can make. You nonetheless are fully capable of seeing that those traits constitute a well-known pattern of behavior called "BPD" -- and getting a much better understanding of why your W is acting so abusively, and why she likely will continue to do so for the rest of her life.


> This morning we were talking like nothing is happening. Not saying I love you but we are talking like we aren't fighting.


As Struggle says, his W (like my exW) "is harsh with me all day and then later acts like she hasn't been a rabid dog all morning." This "where's the problem?" behavior is so typical of a BPDer because she will do all-or-nothing thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad." Moreover, she can flip back and forth from one categorization to the other in ten seconds. This is one reason that BPDers are said to be emotionally unstable. In contrast, a stable person like you and Struggle may take several days to emotionally recover from bearing witness to the outpouring of hatred. A BPDer cannot understand that because they can fully recover -- indeed, can go to the opposite extreme -- in seconds.


> Another thing is that she does absolutely nothing. I cook, clean, help the kids with homework, you name it. She treats the kids like garbage.


A BPDer has a strong feeling of entitlement to everything you give her and the sacrifices you make. Even when she seems to appreciate you -- as might happen when you spend a huge sum on her -- it likely will not last beyond a few days. The reason is that a BPDer cannot regulate her emotions, which causes intense feelings to sweep through her -- quickly pushing aside her feelings of appreciation and replacing them with new feelings that are so intense that, to her, they are "facts."


> She has always been violent and I have never fought back.


If the behaviors you describe are true, you likely are married to a woman with the emotional development of a four year old. But not just ANY four year old. Rather, one with the body strength, intelligence, and cunning of an adult. On top of that, she likely has enormous anger and shame inside that she has carried from early childhood, at which time she experienced a trauma that prevented her from growing more mature emotionally. 

Significantly, that anger and strong sense of shame is easily triggered by any innocuous comment or action that triggers her two greatest fears: abandonment and engulfment. Because you never know what comment is going to be a trigger, you likely have spent the last nine years walking on eggshells, i.e., not being your "old self." Indeed, you may have forgotten what your old self is like. This is why the most popular BPD book (targeted to partners like you and me) is called "Stop Walking on Eggshells."


> She was unfaithful once in the past.... she continues to talk to this man.... She is always flirtatious and always has to be the life of the party.


Most folks mistakenly think that BPDers, being abusive people, are awful people to be around. That is not true. The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning people who work in a wide variety of professions and many of them are doctors, nurses, and social workers. These high functioning individuals, as a group, are a lot more fun to be around -- and can be a lot more caring -- than the more normal people. 

As I noted, the thing that triggers a BPDer's rage is a comment that brings out her fear of abandonment or engulfment. Significantly, such a BPDer fears no abandonment from a work colleague or complete stranger because there is no personal relationship to abandon. Nor does she fear the engulfment that intimacy causes because, with colleagues and casual friends, there is no real intimacy to trigger that fear. 

This is why you often will see a BPDer treating complete strangers with great generosity, charm, and caring and then she will go home and abuse the very people who love her. Loved ones pose a constant threat of either suffocating her by drawing close -- or make her feel abandoned when they draw away. Like you have done for 9 years, I spent 15 years trying to find the "Goldilocks position" mid-way between "too close" and "too far." I can tell you that -- in the unlikely event the mid-point position exists at all -- it has the width of a razor blade and is constantly shifting.


> I found more prescription medication that did not belong to her.


Risky behavior like drug use is common among BPDers because they lack good impulse control, due to their inability to regulate their emotions. As with other mature emotional defenses, "self soothing" is one they never learned to do. In addition, most BPDers suffer from depression and will sometimes try "self medicating" by doing street drugs.


> She says that is playing dirty.


Once your understand how a BPDer thinks, you can almost read her mind simply by observing all the things she accuses you of. Because her emotional development was likely frozen at a young age, she is stuck with having to use the primitive emotional defenses we use 24/7 when we are young children. One of these, which BPDers rely heavily on to avoid painful feelings of guilt and shame, is called "projection." 

What happens is that, at a subconscious level, she will project any "bad" thought she has onto you (remember, if she is not "all good," she will believe she is "all bad"). Because the projection is done subconsciously, she is unaware of the deception and thus believes it (otherwise it would not succeed as an emotional defense). Hence, if she is accusing you of being unfaithful or having impure thoughts, there is a good chance that is what is going on inside her mind.


> I told her she needs to come to her senses and get help ... she says there is nothing wrong with [her].


BPD traits are said to be "ego-syntonic" because, given that the person has been thinking that way her entire life, the BPD traits are invisible to her. On top of the invisibility, there are the problems of her black-white thinking and her self hatred. The result is that the last thing a BPDer wants to hear is that she has one more thing on the long list of things she hates about herself. It therefore is rare for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness to seek treatment and stay with it long enough (say, five years or more) to make a real improvement in her behavior. This is sad because many psychologists know how to teach BPDers to control and manage their illness.


> I decided maybe we should try marriage counseling.... the appointment comes and she gets out of control on the way there and it ends up in her getting physical.... we ended up missing the appointment.


As you will find in many of my other posts, I believe marriage counseling is worthless for a BPDer because the damage to her emotional core is far beyond a "lack of communication" problem. Indeed, teaching BPDers how to better communicate usually results only in their being more skilled at abusing and controlling their partners. What is needed is individual treatment by her own psychologist. And, because her psychologist likely will not tell her the true diagnosis (insurance rarely covers BPD), you should go to your own psychologist -- who will tell you "I cannot actually diagnose her without seeing her but, based on what you've said, it sounds like she has ___."


> I see her turning out just like her mother. I can remember all the times when she would get on her mother for the behavior she is exhibiting. Her mother even said she ... doesn't really care what happens to either one of us.


Although scientists do not know for certain what causes BPD traits, psychologists currently believe it is caused partly by genetics (giving her a "sensitive" temperament) and the early parental environment. Significantly, a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 6% have BPD at the diagnostic level (sometime during their lifetimes) and 70% of them report having been abused or neglected during early childhood. So, if she has strong BPD traits, there is a good chance it came from the mother's side of the family.


> But she continues to wear her rings and act like we are married wherever we go.


Like I said, a BPDer is stuck with using the primitive emotional defenses. The theory is that BPDers are stuck in this way because, to survive childhood, they had to rely so heavily on those primitive defenses that they keep holding onto them for dear life. Two of those defenses are "magical thinking" and "denial," both of which can produce the "nothing is wrong in paradise" behavior evident in the rings and her attitude.

Does this seem sad to you? Of course it does. Any man who chose to stay with a BPDer for nine years likely is a codependent caregiver just like me. We grew up to be the little "fixers." Hence, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are). This is why we will keep helping someone -- for 9 years in your case and 15 in mine -- even when it is to our great detriment to do so. If you would like to read more about typical BPDer behavior (and how we codependents are drawn to them), please see my posts in GTRR's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. And please start taking better care of _yourself_, caregiver.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

With all the abuse and violence, it might be better for the kids if your W moves in with her boyfriend until the divorce.
Besides the new coat, does the other man supply her with drugs?

Come on, from what you posted about her mother, she doent seem the type to be buying her grown daughter a coat.

Two more question. Where does your wife go when shes not at home? and have you ever thought about investigating her were abouts?

Besides the BPD behavior there may be other influences that are cuasing her troubles.


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

I gave the wrong impression on the coat. She used my card for the coat because it was bought at a place where I have a card. But that's besides the matter. The whole thing is is that she will use the kids against me but yet she leaves them in my care while she runs and does whatever it is she does? Doesn't really make sense to me. And treats the kids the way she treats them? Well from the BPD post I am getting a lot of answers her child life was very traumatic from what she tells me. From not being wanted by her father because she was a girl, to being molested twice by people she knows, being bounced from home to home, and watching her mothers marriage flops. So I start to see the BPD. She is also very OCD on things. And wants things to be perfect. Like I said she doesn't really do anything but sleep and go on facebook, xanga, or shop online. But when she looks at the house its never up to her standards. And she fixes stupid things. As far as the boyfriend is concerned it hasn't been proven and she swears up and down nothing has happened with anybody. I don't know what to believe. All I know is I just wished she would quit the bs. Its not helping anyone. I do love her and I want to be with her if she can finally just see the light. I have been told she may never or its going to take a really life threatening event for her to see. I don't know. But thanks for the insight in BPD. And I have told her to move but she won't. And says she wants to take the kids with even if she does. But I know she won't move out she's already threatened to call the cops cause supposedly no one can kick her out of my parents house. Its just a nightmare. I wish it would just turn around. Its tough!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> But I know she won't move out she's already threatened to call the cops cause supposedly no one can kick her out of my parents house.


That is untrue. Because your parents own the house, the decision is theirs to make and they will defer to your wishes. Your only issue, then, is what is in the best interest of your two daughters.


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

I understand what you are saying. My dad says his attorney is saying the same thing however. I do not know. It is really confusing. I mean we are talking fine. With exception of the you know relationship talk. I do not know what she is thinking. You never really do. I do hope for the best. Maybe she needs her time. I do not really know. She makes statements of us doing things together and plan things together but she still has this act up. I do not know what the heck is going on at all. I am really lost and do not know what to do. I am afraid to put effort in. But I am afraid of not putting effort in. It is a double edged sword. I do not know if she is hurting through all of this. I know I am. She sleeps through all of it and snaps about anything. But yet makes plans with me. It is really difficult to read. So what is there to do? It feels hopeless.


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## geo (Oct 29, 2010)

You need to put some distance between you and her, It sounds like aside from the cheating she has some deeper issues to fix before I would let her be anywhere around the kiddos maybe even without some supervision. You need to figure out what is best for "you" and the kids first, sometimes the space reveals clarity and you will think much clearer. I am not saying to quit, that is ultimately a choice for you to make. Right now it seems like a toxic situation and changes probably need to be made before anything can get better.


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

Well needless to say we talked well yesterday. Mainly cause we were planning our daughter's birthday which is today. Saturday went ok. She still talked about the plans of what we were doing about hotels for gymnastics meets and she still wants to get one room. And talked about the puppy that we are getting. Yet nothing about the divorce. Or separation. And these things are far off in advance. I mean I just don't get it. I guess just one day at a time. She snapped on me a couple times on trivial matters. Not relationship things. I don't know what to think. She still advertises we are married. And still is greatful when I take care of her. Who knows what she is thinking. She says she keeps breaking down. Which I don't know if it is because she still wants to be in this marriage or what. I'm sort of dealing with my breakdowns. We still sleep in the same bed and things. No intimacy for about three weeks. Its just an emotional nightmare for me. I just try to focus more time on me and the kids. If that makes any sense. Any comments suggestions?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## geo (Oct 29, 2010)

Hang in there,


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

Well just a little update. Things seem to just get worse and worse. I feel like a prisoner in the house. She finally took her rings off. Probably sold them cause they are nowhere to be found. She still belittles me and verbally attacks me. She runs off more. While I have to take care of all the kids duties and housework. Which I don't mind. Because I'm showing interest in the kids welfare. Starting to head back to God. She's more and more deceptive. I feel like just giving up. Just wish she would change. I have a feeling this is going to get ugly in the divorce process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Ray, thanks so much for updating us. I'm sorry to hear that things have gotten worse because I realize that you love your W. One thing that bothers me is that, although you two have been together for 12 years and married for nearly 10, you don't mention any regular problems occurring in the marriage for the first 8 years or so. If she has strong BPD traits, as the behavior recently seems to be, there must have been some signs of such traits in those first 8 or 9 years of your relationship. Were there not some red flags that you overlooked earlier?


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

I would say yes there were always red flags that I did miss. I have been going back and remembering a lot lately. She always had to have the attention specifically men. She would get mad if I hung out with friends every time I would tell her and even still. She has to know what I'm doing at all times.she would start fights over practically anything. And I would find myself apologizing for her actions. I will admit there were times where it would be fine or so I thought for weeks or months where it would be fine. And then bam here it goes. Even with the school and everything trying to get ahead she says you shouldn't have done that you should have taken a second job instead. Even with the kids she is horrible. Just getting them ready for school is a constant yelling bout between her and the kids. And she threatens our youngest if she doesn't tell her what she wants to eat she doesn't eat. She hid the fact that my daughter missed 13.5 days of school because she was to hung over to wake up. She does absolutely nothing but yell at them. Leaves when she wants. But yet tells me she's taking them. I can honestly say that thinking lately has show all the signs of bpd. I just hope I can live through this. I'm ready to crack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Ray, I'm so sorry. It sounds like a nightmare. I want to ask you why the h*ll you stay with her. Yet, as a man who did exactly the same thing for 15 years -- until my exW abandoned me -- I know exactly why: wanting to be a part of the family and because the good times -- when they occur -- are so very very good. Sadly, the good times are getting farther and farther apart for you and for her. 

If you ever reach the point of wanting to leave her, I can help you deal with your strong feelings of guilt and obligation. Caregivers like us are a disaster around BPDers because trying to help them is futile. There is nothing you can do. In fact, you likely are harming your W by continuing to be an enabler who makes her continued tantrums possible. 

Her best chance of confronting her BPD traits is for you to stop being the soothing object who comforts her after her tantrums, allowing her to avoid having to learn how to do self soothing -- something the rest of us learned when we were 4 and 5. You also serve as a trash can for all her guilt and shame, which she dumps on you by blaming you for every misfortune. In that way, you are harming her by making it easier for her to avoid taking responsibility for her own mistakes. 

Of course, your paramount consideration is what is in the best interest of your two daughters. Given the abusive manner in which their mother is treating them (i.e., blaming and yelling and putting them down), it sounds like a toxic environment that may be conducive to giving them personality disorders just like their mom. Most likely, your W was raised in that situation which, combined with her genetics, likely caused the BPD to begin with. That is how it is handed from generation to generation.

My exW, for example, was mistreated by a sociopathic father. So she and her two sisters all have BPD. Of her five children (my step children), all have some type of disorder (e.g., panic attacks and depression and anxiety). None of them has BPD -- probably because they were not abused as children. Of the many grandchildren, only two are old enough to be at an age where BPD traits start showing. One has bipolar disorder and appears to have (non-diagnosed) mild BPD traits but I am not sure. The other has neither.

As to what to do, my suggestion is that you see a clinical psychologist for a few visits so you can describe to him what is going on. Without your W there, he will not be able to give you a formal diagnosis. But, if she is there, he likely won't do it anyway because insurance companies usually do not cover BPD treatments and because most BPDers will immediately terminate therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis (think about it: she can't even handle admitting to a tiny mistake). The reason, then, for seeing the psych on your own is that he will tell you "I can't make a formal diagnosis but it sure sounds to me like ...."

My second suggestion is to discuss this over with hundreds of other guys who are exactly in your shoes at this very moment. There are several websites targeted to guys like us. The largest and most active one I have found is BPDfamily.com. That forum has so many thousands of members that there are a dozen message boards, the most important of which would be "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD." There, you can communicate directly with folks who can give you tips and suggestions. If you decide to stay with your W, another good board is the "Staying" board. There also is an "Undecided" and "Leaving" board. Not surprisingly, you will find some guys on one of those boards for a few weeks and then jumping to another as they change their minds. Of course, you can participate in all 12 of the boards if you want.

My third suggestion is to start reading about what is in store for you if you remain married to a BPDer. IMO, the best place to start is Article 9 on the "Articles" page at BPDfamily.com. Even if you have no intention of breaking up, this article will be helpful because it debunks ten myths that caregiver guys like us have when we are in a toxic relationship with a BPDer. It is located at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. The other articles listed there are excellent too.

Finally, my fourth suggestion is NOT to forget about us here at TAM. We will be glad to keep giving you emotional support and sharing our experiences as long as you find it helpful. If you look on this forum at LVS's thread, for example, you will see that I and Turnera and several other members have been communicating with her nearly every week since last April. She finally got the strength to leave her H who had been verbally abusive (and physically abusive once) and demeaning for many years. Like your W's behavior, his sounds like strong BPD traits. So please stay in touch with us here on your thread.


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## RayRays1981 (Nov 5, 2010)

Thanks Uptown. You have been a great inspiration and you have helped me understand a lot about who I am as well. I lost that being caught up in this mess. I have been seeing a therapist on my own for the past few weeks because I was losing my mind. She has pointed me in the right direction as well. While she has not given the bpd as an excuse she does say that all of the behavior is out of control and has told me to withdraw. Which I have. And I am avoiding conflict. I have gotten myself back into the gym to give me something to feel good about for once. The thing is that you are exactly right. I love my wife very much so. But I don't think it can go on like this. My oldest has already started standing up for herself when my wife starts with her which is a bad sign. Whether I have enough strength to make it work with her is the case. And the only thing that will make it work is if she makes a huge 180 and I don't see that happening. Not even if it is told to her by someone that is important. My daughter has already got in her face about her behavior and that's not good considering she's 11. I'll keep the updates coming and thanks for all the info. I will definitely use it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

RayRays1981 said:


> I have been seeing a therapist on my own for the past few weeks.


That's great! I saw one too for myself.


> I am avoiding conflict.


That's great too because you otherwise would only be feeding her need for drama.


> My oldest has already started standing up for herself when my wife starts with her which is a bad sign.


Ask your therapist about it but, IMO, it is a good sign that your oldest is healthy enough to have established strong personal boundaries. What you don't want her doing is what you and I did for so many years: walking on eggshells (which means we were not behaving true to our own personalities). I think it would be harmful to a child to have to walk on eggshells (thus hiding her true self) at the very time that she needs to be developing a strong sense of who she is and be developing self esteem. But, yes, it is a bad sign that your W is forcing her to defend herself from irrationality. And, yes, I will look forward to your updates, Ray.


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