# Inter-cultural couple in a need for advice



## Melati (Feb 23, 2013)

My husband and I are in a very complicated situation and we could use some advice.

We have been married for 8 years, I am 28 years old and he is 35. We have no childen.

I am Indonesian and he is German, so we are in an interracial, inter-cultural marriage. It is also interfaith because I am a Moslem and he is Christian, though we are moderate and -not- devout and lately both of us are even leaning to agnotism. 

Around three years ago, my husband persuaded me to try swinging. 

Something that seriously surprised me because I did not even know that such thing existed and that I had never turned him down for sex. I love sex so much after discovering its pleasure and that he can have sex several times a day if he wants to.

I disagreed at first, one of the reasons is; I was a virgin when I met my husband and until that point has never been sleeping with anyone else. I felt frightened with the thought of sleeping with another man. 

I suggested him to hire prostitute or using Craiglist to look for a single woman to be invited to our bed. But he refused the idea, saying that prostitutes only do it for money (duh) and Craiglist is not safe.

I –understand- completely that men have their needs and that sometimes having sex to one woman for a length of time will make them bored. I really do not mind if it is just sex with no feelings involved. 

Another thing I was worried about is that he would want to steer the relationship into an open relationship, with him having a girlfriend. Something that I do not think I can get used to since some of the decision making is already complicated enough without third party interferences. 

Without my consent however, he created a profile in a swinger forums and put up nude pictures of us in the net. 

Tired of being persuaded, I relented and started to visit swinger clubs with him. I usually drink a bit of alcohol to make myself feel less scared or awkward. 

Soon after, he made a contact and befriending a fellow swinging couple. The woman is a men’s dream woman. Beautiful, sexy, smart, carefree and young. My husband fell in love with her but only admitting openly this January, though I have seen how his behaviour changed in the past year. 

I feel betrayed and badly hurt.

He promised that he will never fall in love with other women if I allow him to be a swinger. He denied it, that he has fallen in love with this other woman when I first ask him. He is adamant to continue swinging with this couple, as if he is not caring about the situation in our own marriage.

I do not know what to do anymore. I love him but I cannot let this go, because whenever I think about all of those sacrifices I made just to accommodate him, my stomach feels very hurt and I feel like literally vomiting. 

It broke my heart that for a year, he has been secretly sacrificing me to sleep with the other woman’s fiancé, so that he can sleep with her. 

I will show my husband this thread, so if anyone has an advice for him, it is alright to address him directly too. 

Thank you for reading and I am sorry about the length of the post.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi Melati,
Sorry that you are in this unfortunate position in your marriage.
I would get straight to the point and be very blunt.

You made many sacrifices.
You were a virgin when you got married.
You willingly tried to fulfil all his sexual wants/ needs.
You went along with his swinging idea even though you were not comfortable with it.
Now he's " in love " with that other woman.

Your husband is taking full advantage of you to the point where he's using you in order to have sex with his other woman.
That was always his plan. 
IMO ,That's why he didn't want to hire a prostitute.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Basically, he wants you as his wife to take care of the home, or whatever, and he can go have sex with different women.

Sounds like you were duped  I would not be ok with this...it's playing with fire. 

Do you like sharing your husband?


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## yellowstar (Jun 18, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Basically, he wants you as his wife to take care of the home, or whatever, and he can go have sex with different women.
> 
> Sounds like you were duped  I would not be ok with this...it's playing with fire.
> 
> Do you like sharing your husband?



What everyone is said is true. I'm so sorry :-(. He is using and abusing you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Melati,
I worked for many years in a large organization that was infested with swingers and ordinary cheaters. The swingers and other open marriage practitioners would always say that their marriage was good and that they could handle sex just for the fun of sex, no entanglements, etc etc. Even the long term swingers who said they were proof that swinging livened things up and made their marriage stronger ended up getting divorced. Oh, yeah, the divorce had nothing to do with the swinging. Right. Are there exceptions? Yes, but they are so rare that they prove the rule.

You've already figured all that out, so let's talk about your situation. If you want to keep your husband, you need to blow up your husbands relationship with his swing partner. Does the woman's husband/fiance know what is going on? If not, schedule a meeting and clue him in.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Your husband is violating the rules of swinging.

1) He has gotten emotionally attached to this one woman. 
1a) He would be swinging with LOTS of couples...but he isn't
1b) He should be making you his number one focus and make sure you do not feel threatened.

2) BOTH people in a 'swinging' couple have to agree to this circumstance...not twist one person's arm. YOU do not want to do this. YOU want a normal marriage and are willing to fulfill things inside that marriage. You even unbent enough to allow him a few diversions which were emotionless. HE is a swinger; YOU are not. 

But actually, we have a word here when only one person in a marriage is 'swinging'. It's called CHEATING. 

I am in a multi-cultural and formerly multi religious marriage as well.

This is a shameful thing. And considering the risks associated with a Moslem woman to make such a match, it leaves you VERY vulnerable. There is no 'going back' and it feels like he is taking advantage of this fact.

He needs to make some very hard decisions here. I do not like what he is doing, which smacks of extreme selfishness and even some bullying.

BTW, I am a man.


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## Buildingblocks (Apr 22, 2012)

Divorce him!! Run away as fast as possible. People like him don't derserve a wife like you. There are many men out there who will treat you like a queen.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The two of you need to get tested for STDs. Even if you use condoms it's not 100% safe. You two also have no idea who else this couples has had sex with, or is having sex with. 

You need to handle this as a case of infidelity. He's not swinging, he's having an affair. It's not all that unusual for a person who wants to cheat to do exactly what your husband did. He convinced you to swing so that now you are 'guilty' of infidelity too. So now, in his mind, you have no right to be upset with him for what he's doing.

Is there any indication that he knew this woman before you all met at the swinging meeting? It could have been a set-up by your husband and the woman.

You need to handle this as a case of infidelity. This means that he has to end his relationship with this woman and send her a no contact letter. The the two of you have to rebuild your marriage from the ground up. If he will not end all contact with her, your marriage cannot recover and divorce is your best course.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

It's wrong in so many ways and I would end this relationship.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Bobby5000 said:


> It's wrong in so many ways and I would end this relationship.


I'm not sure that she has anywhere else to go.


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## Melati (Feb 23, 2013)

I want to sincerely thank every single one of you who have been taking the time to read and write a response. 

I have shown the responses to my husband too, but he got defensive and he said he did not have anything to say and did not want to participate in the forums further. 

I hope he will change his mind later.

*Caribbean Man*: I think your post hit my husband the hardest because all of them are true and some parts he even admitted himself. There is just one thing, he said that is completely wrong, he never planned for it to happen. The feeling just suddenly there, according to him.

He tries to undo the damage…but we are actually in the process of moving into the same city where the other couple lives. I do not know what will happen, but I intend to still support him. 

I really do hope this is just a test for our marriage.

*that_girl*: It does certainly sound that he wants to keep both of us at times. Though it is impossible because the other woman will marry her fiancé soon. 

I do not mind if my husband sleep with another woman…but I hope his heart only belongs to me. I know it is a little selfish, but my heart belongs to him too, entirely. 

*Yellowstar*: It broke my heart too…and he did abuse my trust, but I want to believe that we can get through this with our marriage intact. I am willing to try, because I want to grow old with him.

*Machiavelli*: Very insightful post, sir! I know I should be very worry about the possibility of a divorce, but maybe there will be a possibility that we will be the exception? 

I am actually unsure if the woman herself knows about my husband’s true feelings towards her. The couple is a very active swinger and they have been sleeping with many other couples before us. 

The woman’s fiancé has no idea about what is currently going on but I do not think I will tell him. The very last thing I want to do is play a martyr, but this woman’s fiancé has become my husband’s good friend. So good that my husband will be tasked with the planning of his stag night. The couple will be married this year and I feel that a talk about this whole mess with the woman’s fiancé will mar the man’s plan. 

Maybe for the very last resort, if I see the woman actively returning my husband’s emotional affection, because then it will concern the woman’s fiance’s well-being too.

*JCD*: I am very surprised at how much understanding you have for my position as a Moslem woman. I did take a very big risk. If someone from my community got ahold of those nude pictures, it will not only my name that will be tainted but also the name of my family. 

The part about there is no going back is also true. If divorce were to happen, my family will bear the shame and scorn of other people. No daughter with strong sense of filial piety will do that to her parents. 

Interfaith marriage is actually unrecognized by some of my Moslem peers, some see it as if I am currently living in sin. To marry a man from other faith, getting involved in a swinger community and God forbid, be a divorcee…one sin after another. 

We have been talking a lot since January, but I have a feeling that he does not even want to communicate about it. He did not want me to leave and to my shame, I actually love him too much to think about leaving him. 

*Buildingblocks*: I do have to admit that I entertained the thought about leaving him, even found out that it will cost me 170 EUR to take care of the documents, from my personal online research. 

To be honest, I want to fight for the marriage. This man is my first love, my only. I give him everything, if he needs my organs, he gets it. If he wants me to leave, I will leave. That is how deep my feelings for him. 

Weeks ago, he sprained the muscle on his wrist and at that time, I was still angry and reeling from the effect of his confession. However, when I saw him cringing in pain, I feel like being punched in the guts. 

I feel physical pain when I see him in pain, even when I am angry at him. 

*EleGirl*: We do regular test. He does it more often than me because his job demands it. So far both of us are clean. No diseases.

The couple has had sex with several other people, but they are also getting regular test.

The other woman and my husband have never met each other before. For that I am 100% sure. As for cutting contact, my husband is not ready to do it. But I have seen him trying to limit the contacts he has with her.

I really do not want to get into divorce…first and foremost, because after all of what happened, I still love him very much. The second, he does not want divorce either and the third I simply cannot break my parents’ heart. 

*Bobby5000*: I want to give the marriage a try. Through thick and thin, sickness and health. He does not want to divorce either, even insisting that he will hurt himself.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

If he is using your body as currency to buy time with this other woman and you are getting no return except heartache then close the bank.

Make good, right and smart choices for yourself.

Seasalt


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Melati said:


> *JCD*: I am very surprised at how much understanding you have for my position as a Moslem woman.* I did take a very big risk. If someone from my community got ahold of those nude pictures, it will not only my name that will be tainted but also the name of my family. *
> 
> *The part about there is no going back is also true. If divorce were to happen, my family will bear the shame and scorn of other people. No daughter with strong sense of filial piety will do that to her parents.
> *
> ...


بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم,
[ bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm ]

You are from a different cultural background whose value system is entirely different from those in the West.
Your family's name/ reputation is at stake,
Your Marriage is at stake,
Your sanity is at stake.
What are your options?
What about your residential status in the country you live at present?
If you should divorce , would you be deported?
Would it be difficult for you to get a job and support yourself?

You love your husband and seem willing to allow him to have his way. Is it that you respect him as the head of the marriage, it that you are willing to compromise your integrity and respectability because the other options are not good?

It looks like you are in " checkmate " to me and you cannot make a move. You are stuck, so you are starting to rationalize your feelings.

I ask you these question because the situation you are describing may be an abusive one.
Abuse can be defined as treatment given to a spouse , child , or person below the standard of what he or she is accustomed to, with the intention to force them or humiliate them.

Seek professional counselling and you will overcome this,
Take care of yourself, Insha'Allah 
إن شاء الله


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm sorry, but he's using you and treating you with disrespect. It's one thing if both couples willingly choose and open relationship, but he is manipulating you into it and you are obviously unhappy. Don't accept it. Leave him over this. If he truly lives you and if he is truly committed to you, he'll fight for you and he'll accommodate just as you have accommodated him. If he doesn't, then, no matter how much you want to be with him, he is poisonous to your soul and you know that letting him go was right, even if painful.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Your husband is treating you very poorly. He's not taking your feelings and needs into account, from posting nude pictures and creating an account without your knowledge to claiming that he'll hurt himself if you leave him. It's all about him, and what he wants.

Why are you moving to the same city as this other couple?

My thoughts, as someone who is in a "casually swinging" relationship... Swinging is a horrible thing to do to a relationship unless both people are a) fully in agreement with trying it, and b) understand the primary relationship and who the primary partners are. Your husband failed both of those key tests. At this point, he's cheating on you, and you need to deal with it as you would if he started sleeping with someone from work. You have no control over who he invests his emotional energy in (I.e. who he loves), and because he's prioritizing his relationship with her over his relationship with you, I predict a bad ending (for you).

If you allow him to continue having his fun without laying out and enforcing your boundaries, I suspect you might as well resign yourself to him sleeping with whoever he likes, whenever he likes. You're teaching him that your feelings are overridden by your desires to maintain face externally, and he has free reign to do what he likes. Any boundaries he's respected till now will be eroded over time as he continues to test them and you fail to enforce them. 

Sorry to be blunt, but you need to decide if you are ok with a marriage in name only. Sure, to your family and to society it all looks great. But behind the scenes, it will be (and already is) a farce. It's up to you whether that's acceptable to you.

C


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Your family would be horrified for you if you chose to stay in this mistreatment just because you were afraid they'd look bad. Divorce is acceptable in Islam. Your family might understand. It is worth the risk of telling them -- if he refuses to change.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

You *DO* realize your husband is prostituting YOU, don't you?

Single people are NOT ALLOWED at swingers' clubs/parties. So YOU are his 'price of admission'. He had to bring you, and offer you and your sex up so HE can get what HE wants...to fvck other men's women.

He's a pimp, and you're a prostitute. It's UGLY, but it's TRUE!

How far down in degradation are YOU willing to go just so you can keep a NICE SOCIAL FACE on a rotting marriage?

You are lying to god (if you believe in him), you're lying to yourself, you're lying to your family, you're lying to your friends. You want SO BADLY for them to think well of you, but they would be heartbroken FOR YOU to know you endured all this pain and humiliation JUST to stay married!

...*I* feel like vomiting!


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

*Melati,* what you call a marriage isn't a marriage. It's a marriage in name only. Your husband is degrading you. He has no honor. He has dragged you into a life of immorality and degradation. Your family, if they knew, would be horrified of what you've agreed to do for this man. I'm sure they would not want you to stay with such a man. Those pictures he has of you, he could give those to your family any time, and even if he didn't, someone else could. A divorce is nothing compared to the humiliation that could rain down on you if you continue this lifestyle with him. If you don't want anyone to find out what you're doing, don't do it!

You act as divorce is such a bad thing, but you've done things with this man and FOR this man that are far, far worse than divorce. 

You deserve to be happier than you are. You deserve much more from a marriage than what you're getting. If you stay with this man, you will waste the best years of your life. 
I feel so bad for you. You're allowing yourself to be treated so poorly.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

SlowlyGettingWiser said:


> You *DO* realize your husband is prostituting YOU, don't you?
> 
> Single people are NOT ALLOWED at swingers' clubs/parties. So YOU are his 'price of admission'. He had to bring you, and offer you and your sex up so HE can get what HE wants...to fvck other men's women.
> 
> ...



This post is seriously offensive. I know you see it as being blunt, and God knows I am just as good at throwing rocks, but calling her a prostitute? Really?

She is in a HORRIBLE place and calling her these names isn't helping her esteem at all. She's in a foreign land with a foreign husband and her family has probably, if not divorced her, is seriously estranged from her.

I've been there.

This is NOT helping and I think you owe her an apology.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

coffee4me said:


> OP,
> I agree with all the other posters. *You have basically said in this post that allow your husband to own you*. He can make you sleep with other men. He can openly tell you he loves another woman and you are willing to accept it and moving closer to her to encourage the relationship. WOW! Thats says it all, he has free reign can do whatever he wants and you love him anyway and wont leave him.
> 
> It makes no difference really if he loves this woman or not, if he cuts contact with her or not. If not her it will be another.
> ...



While I agree in principle, if she's a moslem woman from Indonesia, the bolded part IS part of the cultural expectations.

This doesn't make them right and it doesn't make her like them and she probably fully expected her husband to act a lot better than he has...but it's true.

Any failure in a marriage is considered the woman's fault in some flavors of Islam and divorce, while legal, is a HUGE stain on her honor.

Her family will consider what is happening to her just desserts for daring to marry an immoral Westerner. Sad but true.

OP, most Westerners and Christians are just as appalled at his behavior as you are. This is NOT normal.

He wanted a nice Third World submissive wife who would go along with his idiocy. So...make friends. Get a job. Make connections. He is in the wrong.

Think very hard about how much more of this you will accept. THIS man is not a worthy husband. There are others out there.

He can change. Will he?


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Melati said:


> My husband and I are in a very complicated situation and we could use some advice.
> 
> We have been married for 8 years, I am 28 years old and he is 35. We have no childen.
> 
> ...


Salaam Aleykum Ibu Melati,

Turut prihatin dengan yang engkau alami. 

Menurutku, "swinging" bukanlah hal yang baik, bagiku itu tiada manfaatnya untuk menjaga cinta kasih didalam rumahtangga.

(translation)

Mrs. Melati,

I am sorry to hear about what you've been through.

I think "Swinging" is not a good thing and it is useless to maintain love and affection within a family.

Anyway,

I am a firm believer that sexual satisfaction is important in a marriage. But a marriage must consist of (1) mutual respect (2) mutual love (3) mutual attraction.

In your case, where is the respect? Your husband should respect you and your marriage vows by being a loyal husband. But he is not satisfied and want more. Maybe for now you will allow him to swing away, but will you still be respecting him in the future, knowing that he is a swinger?

Also, he is not a Muslim man, so the cultural norms of a Muslim person does not apply to him. Think about it, Ibu Melati.

Also, please read Mr. JCD's post above, it's not easy to hear, but it's true, in every word. Please give it your consideration.

Saya juga Muslimin, saya tiada keberatan dengan nikah antar bangsa dan antar agama.

(I am a Muslim, but I have no objection with inter-cultural and inter-faith marriage)

Tapi pernikahanmu tidak terlihat seperti sebuah pernikahan yang berbahagia

(But your marriage does not looks like a happy one)


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

No respect, no love.

I did swinging with a gf of mine in the past, as happy as I was that she did, and as sexually satisfied as I was in having group sex... I lost all respect for her and found my emotions displaced between multiple women. As such, I lay prey to having an emotional affair with my now wife - who I didn't get to f-ck.

So no respect, no love. It's a means to an end. You would be a fool to agree to this; the chances of success is too low to take a risk. Considering your marriage isn't that strong to begin with;



> Without my consent however, he created a profile in a swinger forums and put up nude pictures of us in the net.


It's guaranteed doom. Already he's pushing boundaries, already he's being dishonest with you.


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## Roma (Apr 18, 2012)

Melati I am really sorry to hear about your situation. My thoughts are that you should be getting the same amount of love and respect that you are showing your husband.You have done so much for him to please him and show how much his pleasure means to you but what is he doing for you to show that you are pleased with him too? As a woman you should know your worth. Don't allow a man to rid you of your dignity and honor, and I am not talking about the swinging side of things only...What does he do to please you? You have given yourself to him completely but what are you getting in return. Disrespect and dishonesty! He has made mistakes which you have allowed him to do but does he try to correct them. He knows that he hurt you by falling in love but has he stopped seeing her and why not??Why isn't the fact that you are so hurt by it not enough?he doesn't even want to communicate with you about it...so is he just going to continue to ignore your feelings and carry on. As soon as he doesn't like something he shows you and tells you he doesn't want to continue like reading and replying to this thread.In my opinion yes he has made mistakes but you have allowed them.* A man will only treat you how you allow him to treat you.* In a marriage you give and take but don't just give give give. The question as far as I am concerned is how much are you willing to take? how long are you going to allow him to treat you like this?You don't need to work on this marriage but to work on yourself.It takes two to make a marriage work and if he is not willing to correct his mistakes and make it up to you, show you that he is sorry he has hurt you then you are wasting you time.But then again have you requested this from him? Have you told him what you want? how much will you tolerate and how far will you go please him?what are your boundaries?what will you do when they are crossed?You need to grow a back bone and not allow a man to treat you like a doormat.

However I'd like to point out to others that seem to believe that she maybe the way she is because of her religious background that this is not the case. Divorce is not a sin in Islam neither will she be blamed for it.A woman is not expected to tolerate shet from her husband and be submissive she is expected to know her worth and if she doesn't get the respect she deserves say bye and get out!Its in the asian culture which is why you find asians who aren't muslim believing the same.Whether it is far east, middle east or south east.Personally, I was brought up to love and respect my husband but to know my worth and if I didn't get what I deserved not put up. Sorry to the rest, but I keep reading posts every now and again and for once just wanted to say something.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

jcd:

I appreciate you sticking up for Melati. She needs to realize that she is NOT in a Western-style marriage! This is NOT what Western marriages are like. If the ONLY people they are socializing with are like-minded swingers, she may, indeed, BELIEVE that this is some kind of cultural norm for Westerners! She'd be wrong!

Her husband IS prostituting her!
He is doing it KNOWINGLY, he is doing it PURPOSEFULLY, he is doing it CRUELLY.
He is DOING IT.

Pretending it's something else (like a normal/regular/traditional Western marriage) is doing Melati a disservice.

She needs to understand that her husband is SERIOUSLY ABUSING her by using her in a manner that does NOT coincide with the mores of MOST Westernized couples...no matter WHAT their "swinger friends" and lifestyle may lead her to believe.

She needs to understand that she is being used as a prostitute by her husband so that she can understand that she needs to GET THE HELL OUT of this relationship before she loses any more self-esteem to this man and his demands! 

I don't tell her she is being prostituted to DEMEAN her, but to tell her: *Melati, *THIS* is NOT a Western-style MARRIAGE.* This is prostitution. You are being strong-armed into having sex with men you don't want to by the man who pays your bills.

I believe her husband is tricking her into this unpaid prostitution under the guise that this is how Western-style marriages work.

There's a lot more I could say about him AND his motives, but it would probably get me banned.


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## Gabey (Feb 20, 2013)

Melati, 

My heart breaks every time I read a story such as yours. There are so many good and lonely people out there that would do anything to have a true relationship with a woman like you. You sound like an intelligent and good person.

This was a mistake. Stop this now! Don't keep making the same mistake. Go to this woman and tell her what you posted here. Tell her you don't want to ruin her upcoming marriage so please have the same respect for yours. Tell her this is not about causal swinger sex anymore, it's that your husband is falling in love with her. Tell her this is on the verge of destroying the lives of 4 people.


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