# Money and Sex...I know I'm wrong..but



## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

OK,

Here is my thought process.

I have been married 26 years. My wife and I get along, in fact, we are the best roommates I know.

But sex is not there.

There are a few reasons, her health is not so good, and I am working really hard to keep our head above water with the health insurance, cars, school tuition for the kids, etc.

She does work part time and pays for food an car insurance.

So, the last 4 years have been rough, and I am thinking it's a "season" that might pass.

Here is the thing. 

I have stated - more than once - and point blank:

"I would like a bj once a week and sex once every two weeks"

Now, I am not really going to check off a calendar and say "Hey, you're down two bj's - you owe me"

But I don't get it. I work so damn hard. All I want is a little action. To be honest, I NEED it. It makes me perform on the job better.

IF I had someone paying all my bills, I would like to think I would give them a little - just a little.

I know, I know, this is not a contract relationship and I am not taking care of things because I expect something - but why is it wrong - to expect something.

See, I know I am f**ked in my logic, but I feel so used.

Please, kick some sense into me and tell me where I am off.

I honestly cannot see it.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

You need to figure out a way to get your wife to want to do these things as opposed to her doing them out of obligation. You don't want it to become a chore for her or she will resent it and look for excuses not to do it.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

I don't think you're screwed in your logic. I don't think it's asking too much, unless her physical ailments inhibit her in some way. I have had to change some things about me to get my wife more interested in me. Matter of fact, last night and the night before was the first time in five years we have had sex in consecutive nights. Some of the things I have done is:

Listen to her more. I mean really pay attention to what she's saying, engage during the conversation.

Be more clear in what I expect, start telling her how I feel, and stop being scared to offend. 

I stopped being OCD. I don't try to clean nearly as much as I used to do. 

If I am in the mood and she isn't, I pretend like I don't care. Women don't respond well to "neediness." 

Even though I am in really good shape (about 9% body fat, six pack, big arms, 185lbs at 6' tall), I decided to get in even better shape. She seemed to like seeing me do pullups and pushups the other day. She took a pic and put it on Facebook (which admittedly made me feel kinda weird for a moment or two).

Basically, I stopped being a Mr. Nice Guy. I didn't become a jerk, mind you, I just stopped being so needy.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Your married it IS a contract relationship . A sexual contract.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Baldguy said: "But I don't get it. I work so damn hard. All I want is a little action. To be honest, I NEED it. It makes me perform on the job better.

IF I had someone paying all my bills, I would like to think I would give them a little - just a little."


Ok what I quoted does NOT sound sexy.

It sounds like you would be ok with duty sexy.

It does NOT sound like you love or cherish your wife. It sounds like you aren't even aware that desire and arousal bewteen spouses is what is required in order for good sex to occur.

Are you?


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Baldguy said: "But I don't get it. I work so damn hard. All I want is a little action. To be honest, I NEED it. It makes me perform on the job better.
> 
> IF I had someone paying all my bills, I would like to think I would give them a little - just a little."
> 
> ...



I didn't pick up on that at first. Good catch. But I do have to ask this, as I have experienced this.

Is it a good idea to convey to your wife that you "need" the intimacy? I have, and for the longest time my wife thought less of me because of it. She made it seem that I was "gay" for caring. After about seven years of *****ing about the lack of intimacy and threatening to leave, it dawned on her that sex was not just filling a hole for me. I wanted her to want me.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

Thank you for your responses.

Two things here.

I am not even asking about good sex, I am asking for sex - as in a physical need being met.

You bring up a valid point FW, and I do not disagree at all.

I am trying to work though my feelings of entitlement.

Let's put it this way.

I have the duty to pay the bills. It is a hard duty that during the last few years has become harder due to the economy hitting us.

However, I am not allowed to say one month, "I don't want to pay for your car this month, you pay it"

That is my duty.

And so I get stuck in this loop of becoming bitter thinking that she should - at the minimum - meet a vary basic need I have.

And I hate that.

Thank you for all of your input so far. It really is helping me process through my thoughts.

I am really trying to find that "ah-ha....I am a dumbass - stop feeling this way" moment.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I am really trying to find that "ah-ha....I am a dumbass - stop feeling this way" moment.


Read "Married Man Sex Life Primer" that outta do it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes, married people should desire to be intimate with each other.

But that isn't the same as "I pay the bills, you should put out", right?

It is understandable for you to feel bitter. But it will not help you. It will make you less desirable actually.

You need to actually communicate with your wife. Find out how she is feeling about the lack of sex. Discuss things together.

If she just isn't willing to be sexual anymore, you need to know this but you ALSO need to know you can't change her if she doesn't want to change.

So if that is the end result, she isn't into sex and isn't willing to work on it, you need to have a game plan.

If you aren't going to leave, even without sex, then you have no real leverage here.

I know talking about this like I am doing also isn't sexy. But divorce over lack of sex does in fact happen, all the time. You need to understand that being ready to walk away from the marriage is the ONLY recourse you have.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The man has stayed married to this woman for 26 years and apparently has hauled himself to work for the duration, regardless of how he feels on a particular day. That says "love" a lot louder than some flowers and a Hallmark. Unless this woman is in a coma, she can (and should) do whatever is in her power to see to her man's intimacy and sexual needs. If it's not her place to do so, to whom has she delegated those duties? It would be wonderful if she was spontaneously horny just as it'd be wonderful if I felt all giddy thrilled to go to work every day. It'd be great if nobody ever got older, ever put on weight, or ever developed a pain, and if couples always got along. Life happens and our promises remain in force even on those days we may not naturally "feel" it. Starving a man sexually for four years is a monstrous thing to do if this woman still has the physical capability of providing him some relief. If this man were capable of going to work but just decided he didn't really much feel like it and he laid on the couch for four years while she starved, would he get a free pass from the TAMS crowd? Would they be suggesting she should blow powder sugar up his behind to somehow make him want to provide the support he promised 26 years ago? He's been more than loving, more than patient. He's working himself into an early grave so he can have the privilege of living with a woman who ignores his most basic needs? The OP needs to quit mentioning sex completely with this woman. He needs to find a nice club or gym with an abundance of hot women and he should start spending his time there. She'll soon realize that if she doesn't feed her own dog, someone else will and though she may have some physical challenges, she isn't technically dead yet. If he goes out a few nights I bet she'll remember where her vagina is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"He's been more than loving, more than patient."

How do you know this from his 5 posts?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Baldguitarguy said:


> OK,
> 
> Here is my thought process.
> 
> ...



Health and financial issues definitely add much stress to marriages and sex lives, so very true.

If you have a HD and she has a LD, 50 / 50 compromise is in order. Sex once every 2nd day for example instead of every day or 1 - 2x month.

She works part time, and you work really hard full time paying most of the bills. She should be greatful for that and has more time to be intimate with you.

Find out what her fantasies are and what would drive her wild and do that with her. If she lets you, give her oral with a small vib at the same time to orgasm before having sex with her.

Some spouses need the threat of divorce to change their ways.

Now if she worked really hard full time and paid all the bills and you worked part time, and she had a HD, I'm sure you'd give her sex whenever she wanted, right?


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## Blue Firefly (Mar 6, 2013)

She is taking you for granted at this point.

You can make all the demands you want, but as long as she takes it for granted that you'll be there for her she won't change.

The core idea behind MMSL is to make a light bulb go off in your wife's head: "it's possible I might lose him."

When that idea becomes planted in her mind (and she can no longer take your being there for granted), she'll start to make changes to make sure you stay. 

The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: 9781460981733: Amazon.com: Books

Be forewarned, the author has a very crude and vulgar writing style, but the core advice is solid.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

You are off on your point blank statement: "bj once a week, sex every two week." Sounds like a work schedule to me. You said you made that statement numerous times, almost like demands. I understand you don't mean it that way but does your wife understand it too?
Do you know why your wife doesn't want to have sex? If not, find out. I believe most men express love with sex. So, instead of asking for bj's, ask for her to love you.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

I am reading and processing many of your responses.

However, I wanted to address FourtyPlus.

Yes, me saying "You give me a bj once a week" would be a s****y thing to do.

I brought it up in the context of:

"I have needs, and I would really like it if I could get a bj once a week and sex at least a couple times a month, what are your thoughts about that".

Crickets.


But again, what I am trying so hard to figure out with myself, is this crappy sense of entitlement I seem to have developed.

WHY...do I feel I am owed something just for doing my role?

Has anyone else felt like this, this is not a loving feeling, it seems wrong, yet it is the way I feel.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Something else I noticed: you say you are paying all the bills and this is especially hard in a crappy economy (I'm there, doing it and just purchased the t-shirt). What I find out of place is that you say you work/pay the bills, therefore you should get sex. Your wife isn't your prostitute, is she? I absolutely think your wife should recognize how hard you are working and "make you happy" but not because you work but because she loves you. Everything else, IMHO, would be no different that paying your own wife to have sex with you.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Cuddlebug.."Now if she worked really hard full time and paid all the bills and you worked part time, and she had a HD, I'm sure you'd give her sex whenever she wanted, right?" I wish!!!!!! LD is LD whether male or female. I make the six figure income and he stays at home....still gotta work hard to get some every other day!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

Baldguitarguy said:


> WHY...do I feel I am owed something just for doing my role?


Because you want to feel respected and loved.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I am reading and processing many of your responses.
> 
> However, I wanted to address FourtyPlus.
> 
> ...



I don't think you are owed sex. I'm one of these people where sex doesn't work without love. Love isn't owed, it's only given and received. It's not like a paycheck you are owed for a job well done. I'm not always in the mood but geez, sometimes my husband had a really crappy day and since we talk almost non-stop during the day, I already know ahead of time. I try the best I can to cook something he likes, have his sweet tea ready or do something else I know he'll appreciate and I will also offer bj's (not every single day!!!). But NOT because he works and makes money. I do it because I love him and that's a way he understand it. There are days where he'll ask for it but he knows that I will do it because I love him, not out of obligation or as a trade off.
What I'm trying to say is that there's a reason you are not getting sex from your wife. There's a reason why you have to ask for it. You need to find out why and you need to be prepared to maybe hear something that isn't all that pleasant. The good things is once you know the "why" you can do your part to fix it, granted she's willing to do hers.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

FourtyPlus said:


> Something else I noticed: you say you are paying all the bills and this is especially hard in a crappy economy (I'm there, doing it and just purchased the t-shirt). What I find out of place is that you say you work/pay the bills, therefore you should get sex. Your wife isn't your prostitute, is she? I absolutely think your wife should recognize how hard you are working and "make you happy" but not because you work but because she loves you. Everything else, IMHO, would be no different that paying your own wife to have sex with you.


What he is saying is he's a Mr. Nice Guy. I too was in the same boat with him, figuratively speaking of course. I would do things, and I mean EVERYTHING for my wife. I cooked, cleaned up after cooking, bathed the kids, cleaned the house, washed, dried, and folded clothes, did yardwork, worked a full-time job, had a part time job, fixed things all under the auspices that my wife would want me if I just did enough **** for her. I was wrong, as Mr. Nice Guy is here, too. You can't nice your way into her pants, nor can working hard get you there. You have to connect on a cellular level, or not at all. I've been there, bro. We work because we have to, and as crappy as it sounds, you're not going to get any based on what you provide job-wise. Us Mr. Nice Guys have a sense of entitlement, that if we provide enough, the vag will flow.


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## ozymandias (Sep 22, 2009)

I think that you are right to feel shortchanged when you frame the situation in the transactional way you have. I'd suggest though that the thing you are really getting rooked on isn't your provision - it's your monogamy. I think marriage does impose sexual responsibilities, the core of which being, in exchange for my fidelity, my partner has to make a good faith effort at meeting my sexual needs. If I had vowed to forsake all other's.... cooking, it would be implicit in this promise that my wife would not let me starve to death.

You'd have to go to work anyway. I say forget about the money. There's no good argument there. If you're in a sexless marriage, it's your faithfulness you're really getting screwed out of.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

stevehowefan said:


> What he is saying is he's a Mr. Nice Guy. I too was in the same boat with him, figuratively speaking of course. I would do things, and I mean EVERYTHING for my wife. I cooked, cleaned up after cooking, bathed the kids, cleaned the house, washed, dried, and folded clothes, did yardwork, worked a full-time job, had a part time job, fixed things all under the auspices that my wife would want me if I just did enough **** for her. I was wrong, as Mr. Nice Guy is here, too. You can't nice your way into her pants, nor can working hard get you there. You have to connect on a cellular level, or not at all. I've been there, bro. We work because we have to, and as crappy as it sounds, you're not going to get any based on what you provide job-wise. Us Mr. Nice Guys have a sense of entitlement, that if we provide enough, the vag will flow.


I find this to be fairly accurate. I don't have sex with my husband because he works to pay the bills. I put my work career on hold so I could manage the house and three kids while he earned the income, and this was a sacrifice, too--one that we BOTH agreed upon. I appreciate it when my H helps extra around the house, but that is not why I desire him, either.

The notion that earning an income somehow makes you entitled to sex from your spouse (whether or not you think she works at anything worthwhile--career wise or otherwise) is BS. I am grateful that my husband works hard. But I never asked him to work and pay the bills so I could be a stay at home mom. We agreed to this together. How much sex I would "owe" him in this arrangement never figured into the decision. 

If anything, it bothers me that my husband puts so much of his time and energy into work. I've told him and again I'd be happier with less money and more time with him. I don't value the money the same way that he does. If he told me "have sex or I'm not paying the bills," I'd say "see ya." 

I have sex with my husband because he treats me like a full and equal human being with autonomy over my sexuality. I tell my husband that treating me like a person BEYOND my sexuality makes me feel loved. I don't want to him to do chores and work for me so he can have more sex. I want him to be a well rounded man on his own account, to do things for me because he loves me and wants me to be happy (knowing full well that, in return, I will be happy to make him happy, because he does not want me to have sex with him to fulfill some sense of duty.)

I've not read MMSP, but from what I gather from comments on TAL, it seems to be on the right track. I recently sent the link to my H, and he said it's been helpful and interesting. 

My H and I are coming out of a long LD/HD phase in which I was the LD partner. His telling me how much he needs sex never worked much--it was when he started to focus on himself that I could see more of the man I married and less of the man trying every which way to get in my pants.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I am reading and processing many of your responses.
> 
> However, I wanted to address FourtyPlus.
> 
> ...


You need to look at (and frame) this issue in a different way. It is not money for sex - it is about each of you meeting each others needs. Not just sex, but that is part of it.

You have done some of that by working and providing for the family. What other needs have you met? Which ones of hers have you not? What needs of yours has she met? What other needs has she not?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

GettingIt said:


> My H and I are coming out of a long LD/HD phase in which I was the LD partner. His telling me how much he needs sex never worked much--it was when he started to focus on himself that I could see more of the man I married and less of the man trying every which way to get in my pants.


I loved this post until this paragraph. This seems to suggest that what he needs (in this case, sex with his wife) is unimportant to you. I don't think is a good approach, even if him working on himself is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Getting it said: "I've not read MMSP, but from what I gather from comments on TAL, it seems to be on the right track. I recently sent the link to my H, and he said it's been helpful and interesting."


Please read the link yourself. You might want to know what you sent him to read. It isn't all happy, good sex information. Some of it is straight up woman-bashing crapola. IMO.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

I feel like this statement has been glossed over:
"her health is not so good" This might be part of the problem...
Does her health issues affect her body image? We women are extremely hard on ourselves.
If my husband came to me and wanted a weekly bj, I would be offended. While I'm not against BJs, I don't want to be told how to express my love. Sometimes I can't give them enough, sometimes not so much.

What do you do to get her aroused? I'm not just talking in the bedroom. 

Does she have resentment toward you?. That kills a woman's drive. Been there, done that.

Instead of just complaining about no sex, or not enough, you need to get to the bottom of the problem and find out WHY. No sex is just the symptom.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

Once again, thank you for the feedback.

I sincerely thank you. I have read all of your posts.

As I stated at the start of this thread, I KNOW I am wrong.

But one thing I have learned is to deal with is actually going on with me and how I feel, which is what I am trying to get perspective on.

I seem to have polarized. Females think I am a rotten person and treating my wife life a *****.

Men seem to at least see where I am coming from.

(Blanket statement....nothing is absolute)

I am pondering that the real issue seems to be - I don't matter in my marriage.

That is not something I really want to contemplate.

I made a commitment. To go though the good/bad...sickness/health.

So maybe, I should just stop complaining.

I dunno - just freeforming thoughts at the moment.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I loved this post until this paragraph. This seems to suggest that what he needs (in this case, sex with his wife) is unimportant to you. I don't think is a good approach, even if him working on himself is.


His needs were important to me, I just didn't know how to find the desire because my needs for intimacy were not being met and, sadly, I really did not understand how seriously our lack of sexual intimacy was affecting him. He was adamant that he did not want me to have sex with him without the desire. It was a bit of a vicious cycle, and I ended up going to IC (he would not go to MC with me.) He finally ended up making some changes that enabled him to focus more on his own happiness instead of demanding that I fix his unhappiness for him. 

I think HD/HD relationships that become LD/HD are rarely the fault of just one party, and rarely can be fixed by just one party. In this case, I don't think my husband was trying to "fix" my LD when he turned his attention to himself, but that is what ended up happening. When I felt myself liking my husband much better as a person, satisfying his needs became a much higher priority to me, even if I didn't understand them.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it said: "I've not read MMSP, but from what I gather from comments on TAL, it seems to be on the right track. I recently sent the link to my H, and he said it's been helpful and interesting."
> 
> 
> Please read the link yourself. You might want to know what you sent him to read. It isn't all happy, good sex information. Some of it is straight up woman-bashing crapola. IMO.


Yeah, I've looked through the Website and do want to read the primer when I have time. Meh, it might be a baby and bath water type of thing. Keep the good, pitch the bad. Woman bashing happens when men are sexually frustrated; I get that. I know when I get with my girls we can do a number on our men.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

We'll talk after you read it, but consider yourself warned. For example, one of the ways they recommend for men to get their wives to notice them is to flirt with other women. And then tell their wife about it. And to make it up if they don't actually flirt with a woman. That's just ONE of the very bizarre suggestions over there.

So if your husband is reading it, don't be surprised if he doesn't also start going out of his way to flirt with women.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

bald guy, not I hear you being the victim. I don't matter. Maybe your wife feels the same. You need to find out WHY, not poor me.

I speak from experience. I was in a sexless marriage for 10 years. In those ten years we had sex less than 5 times. Now for the last 1.5 years things have been good. I felt like crap, that I didn't matter. We worked on our problems with one being that he didn't feel worthy of my love and intimacy as well as low T. The no sex was the symptom. We are tying to connect outside the bedroom as well. Emotional connection is very important to have a quality sex life, not quantity.

Have you dated your wife recently? Does she feel like your girlfriend? 

I know money is tight, been there done that too. H was unemployed for 8 months last year, but we worked on US during that time. Dates don't have to be expensive, just a time to connect. After our dates, I'm hornier than a toad. Remember back when you were courting her? What do you do now to court her? What did you do to get in her pants when you were dating?

For years I felt like a wife and mother. I wanted to be his GF again.


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## ozymandias (Sep 22, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> We'll talk after you read it, but consider yourself warned. For example, one of the ways they recommend for men to get their wives to notice them is to flirt with other women. And then tell their wife about it. And to make it up if they don't actually flirt with a woman. That's just ONE of the very bizarre suggestions over there.
> 
> So if your husband is reading it, don't be surprised if he doesn't also start going out of his way to flirt with women.


Actually, the advice for husbands is for their wives to see them being the target of other women's interest and not so much do the flirting themselves. The community over there typically advises true Dread (In the Roissy sense) as a last resort in the context of marriage. Are you skeptical that the OPs wife might be more interested in meeting his needs if she saw him being hit on occasionally when they are out and about?

Edit:



GettingIt said:


> In fact, we often go out as a couple with one of my husband's ex girlfriends and then have the.most.mind.blowing.sex.


Bizarre suggestion indeed.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> We'll talk after you read it, but consider yourself warned. For example, one of the ways they recommend for men to get their wives to notice them is to flirt with other women. And then tell their wife about it. And to make it up if they don't actually flirt with a woman. That's just ONE of the very bizarre suggestions over there.
> 
> So if your husband is reading it, don't be surprised if he doesn't also start going out of his way to flirt with women.


Hmmmm, I might be one of the very bizarre women who do not feel threatened by other women, even when they are flirting with my husband and he with them. In fact, we often go out as a couple with one of my husband's ex girlfriends and then have the.most.mind.blowing.sex. Something about the "taboo" of her being a close friend to both of us is hot. (Yeah, I think she knows this.) 

I fully recognize that this is not the case for many (most?) couples. However, the trust I have in my husband is deep and abiding and he has earned it over the past 20+ years by demonstrating integrity beyond reproach. He's not perfect, but trust is not an issue that I have with him. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and posit that men who read MMSP will have the sense to pick and choose the advice that they suits the "culture" of their marriages. There is no "one size fits all" advice, and hopefully men can look at their situations and make judgments on the type of behavior that would get them kicked to the curb by their wives.

I'm even more curious to read MMSP now . . . it could be that I find it off-putting, but if it improves my marriage then it's working for the only man I'm worried about.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Getting It...I hear ya, and good luck with that.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> "He's been more than loving, more than patient."
> 
> How do you know this from his 5 posts?


His post indicates he's been in a sexless marriage about four years. She's still alive, so she's still eating, getting medical care, still living in the home. She works part-time, so she's capable of enough function to take care him in some way. She just doesn't wish to. She's not divorced. Money's tight so he's not keeping her around for her money. He's on this forum complaining about low sex from his wife, so he's not busy knocking boots with the neighbor. He's a saint.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

unbelievable...sorry, I'm not buying it. There is no real proof here that he is a saint. He could be a giant ass-hat to his wife and he might think that is normal behavior, while his wife is thinking he is horrible.

He has a job. He would also have one if he was single.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If he's awful why has she been eating his groceries for 26 years? If a man is too awful to have sex with, he ought to be too awful to sponge off, too. His wages are apparently acceptable enough to her. Without her he'd probably still be working, but he'd also be getting laid.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok...we'll see, I guess. I mean if you are right then by all means, his wife should "give it up" because a man sure wants duty sex above all, right? He doesn't care if she actually desires him or not, right?

If you say so.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

She doesn't care if he feels it's his "duty" to earn a paycheck or if he's going because he just finds employment fascinating. Would she refuse to eat if he didn't like his job? He's got reasonable sexual and social needs. He was created with those needs. If it's not her business to attend to them, where would you suggest he take them? Would you suggest that it's appropriate for society to force a homosexual to be celibate or would that be abusive and a violation of their human rights? I'm certain this guy would be thrilled if his wife actually thought and functioned like the woman she promised to be. She doesn't, so rather than toss her into the street or find another woman to have sex with, in desperation, he comes up with this schedule business (which won't work, either). For that, he's a bad guy? What about the withholder who put him in that position?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Baldguitarguy said:


> See, I know I am f**ked in my logic, but I feel so used.


You are wrong. But not for the reason you think. You are not wrong for believing that marriage should be a sexual union. Even the Pope thinks that. If a marriage is unconsummated, it can be annulled even by the Catholic church that views marriage as a sacrament. So you're wrong to think that you shouldn't expect sex.

You're also wrong for feeling bad about being a man. Men have testosterone. That makes us want sex. God, or evolution, designed us that way. Do you feel bad for having two arms and two legs? Probably not. So why do you feel bad for having the healthy sex drive God gave you?

Marriage is supposed to be a mutually beneficial relationship. That means you satisfy your wife's needs and she satisfies yours. Most people will agree with that statement. What you find many women balking at is the idea that sex is a legitimate need for married men. Married men understand how important it is. Yet you're feeling guilty for understanding your own needs and not adopting the female view of dismissing your own needs. Stop that.

I'll echo the recommendations to go read the MMSL Primer. It gives you some pretty good insight about what male needs are and what female needs are. It also gives you pretty good advice for making yourself more attractive for your wife. It's worth trying.

Good luck.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Getting it said: "I've not read MMSP, but from what I gather from comments on TAL, it seems to be on the right track. I recently sent the link to my H, and he said it's been helpful and interesting."
> 
> Please read the link yourself. You might want to know what you sent him to read. It isn't all happy, good sex information. Some of it is straight up woman-bashing crapola. IMO.


Getting it says that MMSL has been helpful for her husband. He's working on himself more, which has caused her to be more attracted to him. Her marriage is improving. But you still want to warn her off what's working because you disagree with some of the tenets (although the one you cited here you got backwards)?

I'll just say to go with what works. If my wife read Mein Kampf and it improved our marriage, I would just go with it.  But I guess some people would rather be right than happy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Speaking as a woman who left one husband already due to lack of sex, perhaps some of us women do understand how important sex is in marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PHTLump...yeah, I say go with what works, too.

Unless what works is disrespectful to my spouse.

If I read some website that called my husband a "fat bro-tard", I would immediately consider the rest of the content to be full of crap.

Likewise, when MMSL calls women "chubby screechtards", I feel the same way.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

baldguitarguy - I also believe your thoughts are reasonable! Why wouldn't you want/expect love and affection and sex in your marriage...even without getting into who does what/when and how.

In my marriage it's extremely important for me to feel desired and wanted and special to my husband.

What are the health issues you mentioned...these might be an important factor.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The act of getting married puts a sexual obligation on both parties (unless something different is agreed to before-hand). I think there are things people can do that would suspend or negate that obligation. If I cheated on my wife, I wouldn't expect her to have sex with me for a time. If I chose to be an abusive drunk and not even try to support my family, I wouldn't expect my wife to fulfill her sexual obligations to me. The OP may be mentioning the performance of his marital obligations primarily to show that he is contributing to the marriage and naturally deserves and expects like commitment from his wife. Might not be the most romantic argument but I do find it perfectly logical. Marriage is a contract and a contract requires specific performance from both parties.


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## JustSomeGuyWho (Dec 16, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> unbelievable...sorry, I'm not buying it. There is no real proof here that he is a saint. He could be a giant ass-hat to his wife and he might think that is normal behavior, while his wife is thinking he is horrible.
> 
> *He has a job. He would also have one if he was single.*


I have issue with this statement. While technically true, I also know that I would have been far better off financially as a single person than married to my wife even if my income was exactly the same.

I understand OPs sentiment just from the thousand foot level. You work hard and provide for her. You never have sex. It is similar to taking in a roommate and paying for all their expenses ... and how many people would do that? I guess my view is a little tainted because my wife doesn't do much else ... it isn't as if she is taking care of the household. Seems a bit unfair.

No, it is not sexy and that argument is NO solution. I personally don't want duty sex. I want a relationship with a woman who I desire and who desires me. The above is not a legitimate argument in my mind for her to have sex with him ... it is simply a sentiment. This is not fair. However, OP is not a victim; he has choices and that is the approach he needs to take if he wants to resolve it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"However, OP is not a victim; he has choices and that is the approach he needs to take if he wants to resolve it."

I 100% agree.

I only made the statement about him having a job in response to another poster who was trying to argue that him having a job is the reason she should want to have sex with him. That idea is crap, it doesn't work, and it never will.

And plus, we really don't know enough about the OP's situation to know if he is honestly a good man and husband or not. He has not said enough for us to evaluate this. That was my point with that other poster.

Bottom line for this OP and for EVERY OTHER MARRIED PERSON IN THE WORLD: Your only bargaining tool is your feet.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> The act of getting married puts a sexual obligation on both parties (unless something different is agreed to before-hand).


Hmm, maybe, but in reality many (especially young) couples don't put much thought into their future sex lives because it's not a problem at the moment. Not saying they shouldn't, but that's just the way it is. Plus, calling sex an "obligation" is just such a bummer. If it is being looked as as an obligation, the underlying problems are already way overdue to be addressed, and it' s going to take hard work, sincerity, and dedication for both parties to set things straight. 




unbelievable said:


> I think there are things people can do that would suspend or negate that obligation. If I cheated on my wife, I wouldn't expect her to have sex with me for a time.


"For a time"? How about "until I made amends and earned back her respect and trust, if that is at all possible"?



unbelievable said:


> If I chose to be an abusive drunk and not even try to support my family, I wouldn't expect my wife to fulfill her sexual obligations to me.


I think, quite often, that garden-variety problems and stresses cause sex lives to fizzle. Having kids. Demanding jobs. Problems with relatives. Illness and poor health. Depression. Finances. 

It doesn't take things like infidelity or addiction to legitimately derail intimacy. That doesn't mean "garden variety" problems need to be addressed with less urgency and attention. Just because a wife (or husband) is able to move and breathe doesn't mean they should be expected to be able to be a full and equal intimate partner. Intimacy is created, nurtured and valued as a quality that requires effort and intention to keep strong. It's not something pulled out of a drawer when the need rises. 



unbelievable said:


> The OP may be mentioning the performance of his marital obligations primarily to show that he is contributing to the marriage and naturally deserves and expects like commitment from his wife.


I'd say the OP has given evidence that he is contributing toward the household, which is different than contributing to the marriage. 



unbelievable said:


> Might not be the most romantic argument but I do find it perfectly logical. Marriage is a contract and a contract requires specific performance from both parties.


I find this a dismal outlook on marriage. My marriage is not a contract: is is living, it is organic, it is a sometimes sweet and sometimes bitter challenge that has taught me more than I ever could have learned about loving myself and loving others.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OP, sorry you find yourself here.

A woman's perspective on the bills, money, and sex.
(btw, I make 3x what my H does, and I do ALL the house work)

A bj and\or sex is something for YOU personally. 

Paying the bills is for both of you, to keep BOTH of you from being homeless and in the dark, and without food. You are giving half of that to yourself anyways. (you are using it).

If there is\was something you did personally, just for her, that would be worthy of a bargaining chip. 

Which is why it's hard to understand why one's spouse would deny you that personal intimacy.

They already found your bargaining chip. And decided to withdraw it. No amount of bargaining is going to solve anything, unless you are both playing on the same field.

It's like telling the cable company you are going to cancel the satellite. 

Get personal. It's a personal choice to with-hold sex. Has nothing to do with the price of gas this month. Personal control over one's body is the ultimate (and usually last) bargaining chip. Sometimes all someone has left to leverage. It hits below the belt, but it gets the message across. Not interested in being personal. 

Sucks, but it's up to you to learn why and lure them back.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> Once again, thank you for the feedback.
> 
> I sincerely thank you. I have read all of your posts.
> 
> ...


I apologize, I didn't mean to come across as implying you are a rotten person, not at all. I think both you and your wife might have different love languages and I also believe there is a reason why your wife isn't volunteering to have sex with you. It "should" be a given.
The commitment to go through good/bad, sickness/health doesn't mean one party should just endure the bad and I don't think that's what anyone is suggesting you do. 
Back to square one...you want more sex and your wife apparently doesn't. There's no magic pill or anything you can do or say to change it other than starting to communicate and see if she will open up and talk. It's either a problem she has, be it medical or emotional or it's like you said, you don't matter in the marriage.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Baldguitarguy said:


> "I would like a bj once a week and sex once every two weeks"


Ignore the people who try to guilt-trip you over sex, and don't get defensive about it.

Don't listen to the people shaming you when you describe how you are pulling your weight in the marriage yet you don't feel respected and loved in return. They try to frame that as you making your wife into a prostitute. Like it is your fault she isn't cooperating. See how you are working hard and "expecting" sex in return? Shame on you. 

You might try counseling. You might try an ultimatum with enforceable consequences. You might try reading some literature together that people have suggested here. 

But in all cases she's got to agree that this is a need of yours that is valid and that she is willing to work together on improving things. If you don't have that then you aren't going to get it no matter what.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

OP all the money in the world cannot and will not make her WANT to have sex with you. I know this. Spend 10 bucks on MMSL and start to change your life into what it was meant to be.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Ignore the people who try to guilt-trip you over sex, and don't get defensive about it.
> 
> Don't listen to the people shaming you when you describe how you are pulling your weight in the marriage yet you don't feel respected and loved in return. They try to frame that as you making your wife into a prostitute. Like it is your fault she isn't cooperating. See how you are working hard and "expecting" sex in return? Shame on you.
> 
> ...


:iagree::smthumbup: Finally, an objective, balanced perspective. In many cases such as these, most of the times I will advise divorce, especially if the couple are still young, and/or if all the children has grown up. If a perfectly healthy and capable wife does not want to have sex with her husband (or vice versa), for whatever reasons legitimate or not (there are plenty of logical reasons), then it is no longer a proper marriage. In any case, divorce is always preferable over decades of misery. 

There will be some who said that fixing the problem should take precedence over divorce. I agree with this position, but fixing the problem only works if both parties agree that there is a problem that need to be fixing. From most posts here in TAM, I see that the ones doing the withholding usually does not think it's a problem, as they are in the controlling position.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If a BJ once a week and sex every 14 days is turning a wife into a prostitute, she'd be the Maytag repairman of prostitution. That's 11 days out of 14 without any expectation of any form of sexual contact at all. For a total sex commitment of probably less than 3 hours a month, she keeps all the normal benefits of marriage plus she wouldn't get hassled for sex the entire rest of the time. No pissed off, frustrated husband, no discussions or arguments about sex, no anxiety about sex, no dreaming up excuses in case he asks for sex. I know it doesn't sound romantic, but if sex never naturally crosses her brain, putting it on a schedule doesn't sound like an awful idea. Seems like a better solution than ignoring the problem until he throws in the towel and/or cheats. Would folks here have greater respect for him if he tossed her and her medical problems out the door? He's in a bad fix and he's trying to figure out a way to survive in a less-than-ideal situation while retaining some positive feelings for his wife. I'm sorry his story has no glass slippers, no mermaids, no singing birds or dwarfs. No matter what the cricket told you, sometimes, even when you wish upon a star, the Fates will crap all over your dreams and you'll just have to make the best of what you've got.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I have issue with this statement. While technically true, I also know that I would have been far better off financially as a single person than married to my wife even if my income was exactly the same.
> 
> I understand OPs sentiment just from the thousand foot level. You work hard and provide for her. You never have sex. It is similar to taking in a roommate and paying for all their expenses ... and how many people would do that? I guess my view is a little tainted because my wife doesn't do much else ... it isn't as if she is taking care of the household. Seems a bit unfair.
> 
> No, it is not sexy and that argument is NO solution. I personally don't want duty sex. I want a relationship with a woman who I desire and who desires me. The above is not a legitimate argument in my mind for her to have sex with him ... it is simply a sentiment. This is not fair. However, OP is not a victim; he has choices and that is the approach he needs to take if he wants to resolve it.


What kind of "light" do you think it puts you in, to be taking care of a completely non-sexual spouse who see's you in a completely non-sexual and non-threatening manner?


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## SouthernMiss (Apr 25, 2013)

You are fully right to expect your wife to attend to, and fulfill, your normal, healthy sexual desires.

When you commit yourself to someone for life, you do so with a mutual commitment of fidelity. By default, this means you will each satisfy each other sexually.

She isn't a prostitute, but she does OWE you that. She doesn't owe you that because you bring home a paycheck. (There's a disturbing number of men on this site who think bringing home a paycheck should entitle them to sex. No wonder they aren't getting any! lol) She OWES you sex because she committed to that when marrying you for life. 

There is no one else, because you have committed to her, to fulfill your sexual needs. Your sexual needs are perfectly reasonable. You have remained faithful. You expect your wife to have sex with you. That is not wrong. At all. In the least. Stop apologizing. Stop saying you're wrong. 

It's the marital commitment that entitles you to sex. You're not wrong. Don't be sorry. This is your life mate, help mate, friend and LOVER. Do not dismiss the LOVER part. That IS her role in your life.

I would suggest not framing it as "I bring home the bacon. Now put out" lol That doesn't warm a woman up. But do tell her that she's your forever...the only woman in the world for you...your wife...and you want her. You want her mind. Her thoughts. Her love. And her body. 

Don't settle for less. This is a marriage. You both owe each other sexual satisfaction, and you're NOT wrong in expecting that promise to be fulfilled.

Just don't case it in terms of finances. While I know you're not intending it, it does tend to make a woman feel bought and paid for. And that turns few women on.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

SouthernMiss said:


> *You are fully right to expect your wife to attend to, and fulfill, your normal, healthy sexual desires.
> 
> When you commit yourself to someone for life, you do so with a mutual commitment of fidelity. By default, this means you will each satisfy each other sexually*.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::iagree: THIS is also an excellent advice, and the one I would give to religious people. This advice addresses most of the important point without being analytical. Miss Southern, great job, I will write down on my list of excellent advices for troubled couples.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> WHY...do I feel I am owed something just for doing my role?


You work for a living to support your family. How many hours a week do you work?

What does your wife do? Does she have a job? Does she clean house, take care of children, Cook? Please list the things she does to contribute to your family.

Could you also give us an idea of what her illness is? It can make a difference.

How many hours a week do you spend with your wife, just the two of you doing things that you both enjoy?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Baldguitarguy,

You are right to expect love and intimacy in your marriage. I understand that you are upset and thus making the comment about you work so you deserve it. 

I assume that your wife does not sit on the couch eating bom boms all day and watching TV. Thus I assume that she also contributes to the marriage.

Something as broken down in your marriage. We don't know what it is and so far you have not give us a clue. I wish that your wife would come here and talk to us. This is why MC is a good idea, the MC gets to hear both points of view.

One thing that I think will help you a lot is to get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" read it. Then after you have read it and worked through some of it here on TAM. Ask your wife to read it with you and work through it. One good way to do this is for the two of you to take turns reading it aloud. So read a chapter, discuss it and do the work.

You can save your marriage. For a while you will need to be the person who does the work. Hopefully your wife will eventually join you.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Wiserforit said:


> Ignore the people who try to guilt-trip you over sex, and don't get defensive about it.
> 
> Don't listen to the people shaming you when you describe how you are pulling your weight in the marriage yet you don't feel respected and loved in return. They try to frame that as you making your wife into a prostitute. Like it is your fault she isn't cooperating. See how you are working hard and "expecting" sex in return? Shame on you.
> 
> ...


With that advice, one can only hope that OP isn't going to lose his job .... do you see why it's not a good idea to tie sex to a stupid paycheck.

Making a living these days isn't always easy to do. Looks like OP manages anyway and is a great provider. That entitles him to "Hey honey, I'm proud of you." from his wife. It entitles him to praise and respect. He deserves it!!!!!

He also deserves sex and he should get it whether he brings home a paycheck or not.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> PHTLump...yeah, I say go with what works, too.
> 
> Unless what works is disrespectful to my spouse.
> 
> ...


Again, you have missed the correct message of MMSL. Athol Kay has used the term "screechtard" to refer to some women who behave badly. If you think he was referring to all women, then you misread him. And if you think that acknowledging that some women are badly behaved is disrespectful to all women, then you're just wrong.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

OP, if your wife were to get a full time job (hypothetically), would you still feel like she "owed" you sex? Since she was putting in the same amount of hours at work, would that negate her obligation to pay you with her body? 

If you've ever mentioned your little payment schedule to your wife, I can guarantee you, she is seething with resentment and your chances of getting ANY went down the crapper. 

No amount of hours worked at YOUR job grant you entitlement to HER body. It's insane that you would think otherwise. 

Be a man she WANTS to be with or do without.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

Once again, thank you for all you input.

I do not want to go into health issues, but it is not fatal (such as un curable cancer or the like).

I am still processing my thoughts.

However, maybe I hit on something.

Someone said, "If your wife worked full time and took care of half the bills, would you feel the same?"

And that answer is no.

Because then, we are BOTH giving 50/50 (or close to it).

I have given up a lot of what I like to do over the past 4 years, due to money, (golf for one, love golf - can't afford it anymore right now).

So, I think what I am feeling is, "Hey, I bust my ass, how about giving me some"

The one poster said basically what I feel like - if she would put a couple hours a month into meeting my sexual needs, life would be great (ok, not great, but as good as it can get during this period in our lives).

Again, thank you. 

I am working through this, and though there is no "magic" answer, it helps reading your input.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

OP,

I applaud your willingness to share how you feel here, even when you are also feeling you "shouldn't" feel that way.

I agree: do not let anyone shame you.

Also, kudos for being one that seeks a solution, and for being open to being wrong "so far".

Nothing you've said made me think you consciously or even unconsciously entered into marriage/relationship as a quid-pro-quo (sp?) sort of arrangement where you do the day job (or most if it) and she does the b*** job (and you reciprocate). We don't know the whole story, but, in the absence of knowledge, I like to go with my hunch -- which in this case is you are a loving caring partner; after all, you are here, your pain sounds real, and you come here explicitly seeking NOT validation of how you feel but rather seeking to learn exactly how YOU are wrong.

I think your attempt to analyze your situation in terms of "I even do this" and "she still doesn't even do that" is interesting and understandable, but, at face value it misleads you.

Fwiw, I often feel the same way. And, in my case, today, I am lucky I don't have to involve myself in, say, "controversial" trade-offs. My wife just told me that I "don't do enough of X", so I just did it. By coincidence (yes, no?) we had sex several hours later. The time and effort "X" took from me vs. sex took from her is very fresh in my mind. And, I'm a bit dazed and confused. SHE has reduced it to an exchange of X for sex, and despite being giddy and walking on air for awhile since getting to be close and deep inside her, Breathing her air, feeling her pull me inside her, i can't help but feel the exchange rate is a bit unfair, AND THAT I AM WRONG for even feeling that.

I think someone above got it right. It shouldn't be about daily/weekly exchanges of X for sex, though sometimes, when you are hurting, that's the only thing you've got left - the only view of yourself and your needs and your "rights" that makes you feel like you are still a human being that has needs that are not just selfish-in-a-bad-way.

However, the real and important contract was made a long time ago and the promise was to love each other and be monogamous. You do not feel loved, I am guessing, and neither is she. I think you need to focus on the original promise. Use the accounting you are feeling (your version of "x" for sex) mostly as you introspect, but realize it is not the equation/balance you need to solve.

I am reading No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Glover. I wonder if it would help you.


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## standingbymyman (Apr 30, 2013)

My husband and I have been married 11 years in June. At first things started great, then we had a child and moved into our new home. Things changed. We were no longer close. He didn't pamper me anymore, we didn't go out, heck he didn't even kiss me or hug me when he came home from work at night. The only time he and I have kissed within the past 4-5 years is when he wants sex. It left me feeling like a piece of ass not his wife. 

I can see where you are coming from - you don't feel appreciated. I know I didn't make my husband feel appreciated for all the hard work he does day in and day out. Maybe that is why we continued on a downward spiral and cheated on me with several different women. Perhaps you feel the same way but sit and ask yourself do you make your wife feel special? Do you do special things for her? Perhaps if she knew that you were making as much effort for the relationship as you do for work things would change. I didn't wake up until I uncovered all the lies and discovered what was really going on with my husband. I decided to stay for now and see if things change as it has definitely been an eye opener.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> Again, you have missed the correct message of MMSL. Athol Kay has used the term "screechtard" to refer to some women who behave badly. If you think he was referring to all women, then you misread him. And if you think that acknowledging that some women are badly behaved is disrespectful to all women, then you're just wrong.


Athol Kay also starts his book out by saying, that he knows his wording and writing can be considered raw and obtuse to a female, but his desire is to create a better man for her benefit.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A "win" for a marriage looks like two very elderly still-married people. It doesn't necessarily look like one or both having every single one of their dreams fulfilled. There are two people in any marriage and both have a few reasonable expectations that will be met if the marriage is to survive. If getting the OP and his wife to the finish line means his wife agrees to some minimal sex goal, that's a decent solution. Sex can be spontaneous, magical, and earth-shaking and sometimes it may look like "duty" sex. The "right" way to approach this problem is whatever way keeps both partners married and reasonably content until Death comes and snatches one of them.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

standingbymyman said:


> . Perhaps you feel the same way but sit and ask yourself do you make your wife feel special? Do you do special things for her? Perhaps if she knew that you were making as much effort for the relationship as you do for work things would change. .


OK, I am NOT being mean SBMM, so please do not take it that way.

But THIS is the attitude that my wife has and it really annoys me.

I mean...really?....I am busting my ass, she has a big house, new cars, a boat, kids in college, money for credit cards, all medical expenses paid, I give up most of my likes and;

IT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH?

Sorry, but that takes me right back to my fist post, as in WTF?


Therein lies my issue.

WHY should I have to do MORE...to get some p***y.

And no...I do not ignore her, I take her to breakfast, buy her flowers for no reason, bday are taken care of, Christmas, Mothers Day, all taken care of, buy her followers for the yard, etc.

Again, sorry and it is not directed at you.

But that comment just made a trigger go off that keeps happening to me and is causing my poor attitude.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> A "win" for a marriage looks like two very elderly still-married people. It doesn't necessarily look like one or both having every single one of their dreams fulfilled. There are two people in any marriage and both have a few reasonable expectations that will be met if the marriage is to survive. If getting the OP and his wife to the finish line means his wife agrees to some minimal sex goal, that's a decent solution. Sex can be spontaneous, magical, and earth-shaking and sometimes it may look like "duty" sex. The "right" way to approach this problem is whatever way keeps both partners married and reasonably content until Death comes and snatches one of them.


I think the best solution includes passionate deep soul sex and a portion of it is duty sex and they have an agreement early on, if one of them lose desire that they fall into a minimum of duty sex.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I mean...really?....I am busting my ass, she has a big house, new cars, a boat, kids in college, money for credit cards, all medical expenses paid, I give up most of my likes and;
> 
> IT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH?
> 
> Sorry, but that takes me right back to my fist post, as in WTF?


Yep, because you are looking at it wrong.




> Therein lies my issue.
> 
> WHY should I have to do MORE...to get some p***y.


Actually, consider doing less, at least for her.



> And no...I do not ignore her, I take her to breakfast, buy her flowers for no reason, bday are taken care of, Christmas, Mothers Day, all taken care of, buy her followers for the yard, etc.
> 
> Again, sorry and it is not directed at you.
> 
> But that comment just made a trigger go off that keeps happening to me and is causing my poor attitude.


Read No More Mr. Nice Guy. While I don't know if it is applies to you, what I see a lot of is covert contracts. You do these nice things for your wife and expect sex in return (though you don't tell her that explicitly). You are then upset when she does not follow through. So stop. Stop doing stuff because you expect her to sleep with you. THAT NEVER WORKS.

So what should you do? Start by figuring out the type of man you want to be. This is what you want, independent of her, your kids, and anyone else. Figure out what you want to be as a man. Then start doing stuff that is consistent with that.

As a man, I view part of my responsibility to be taking care of things in the yard. So I take out a bush or move a tree because it is what I need to do, not because I will get laid. But often, the effect is the same, as I am an attractive partner to my wife.

I also do stuff for me. I love hockey, which my wife does not. So while I don't abuse it, I do take time for myself to watch the hockey game from time to time. I spend a lot of time with my wife, connecting, talking and doing stuff together. But I also deserve time to do my things, and that sometimes means without her. Again, I don't do it to have sex, but being the guy who has things that make him happy makes me more fun to be around for her.

So, work on yourself. Make yourself that more attractive guy. Stop doing things because you hope it will lead to sex. Rather, do them because they are the right thing to do.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> One thing that I think will help you a lot is to get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" read it. Then after you have read it and worked through some of it here on TAM. Ask your wife to read it with you and work through it. One good way to do this is for the two of you to take turns reading it aloud. So read a chapter, discuss it and do the work.


:iagree:

I would also repeat the advice to get this. I might suggest getting it after you start improving yourself, to show that you are serious (and this is not some game to get more sex). This is about working smarter, not just harder.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Yep, because you are looking at it wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He coulda done it because it is the right thing to do with the woman he loves... However after introspection, it is too high of an output for the input he is given for her.

It may have not been "covert contracts", but rather him giving from his heart, and then after realizing the balance established, it's not going to be ok to keep on going at that level.

There must be some pullback and re-alignment to the reality of the situation.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> OP,
> 
> I applaud your willingness to share how you feel here, even when you are also feeling you "shouldn't" feel that way.
> 
> ...


Now that I think about it. Marriage is KINDA like a covert contract. Part of the contract is we are going to take care of these needs that people get met on the single market. We are married and there is no reason to go to the single market to get these needs met, you have a spouse.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I mean...really?....I am busting my ass, she has a big house, new cars, a boat, kids in college, money for credit cards, all medical expenses paid, I give up most of my likes and;
> 
> IT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH?


The short answer is, no.



> And no...I do not ignore her, I take her to breakfast, buy her flowers for no reason, bday are taken care of, Christmas, Mothers Day, all taken care of, buy her followers for the yard, etc.


Your problem is not that you're not doing enough. It's that you're doing the wrong things. I'll break MMSL down for you.

There are two types of behaviors. Alpha behaviors are sexy. They attract women. Beta behaviors are comforting. Women appreciate beta behaviors.

All of the behaviors you have described (being a provider, giving gifts, keeping up the nest) are beta behaviors. I'm sure your wife really appreciates them. But they're not sexy.

Alpha is sexy. Alpha behaviors are being confident, assertive, dominant, physically fit, and sexual.

You have probably fallen into the nice guy trap. You used to show a balance of alpha and beta traits. Then, you married. And you focused on beta traits while letting the alpha traits slide. When your wife started showing less attraction for you, you added even more beta. And then it becomes a downward spiral. The more beta you add, the more you resent your wife, and the less attracted she is.

The solution is to add alpha traits. Get an alpha hobby, such as hiking, mountain biking, or going to the gym. Lose fat and add muscle. Start being the life of the party. Be more confident.

Go read MMSL.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PHTLump said: "Athol Kay has used the term "screechtard" to refer to some women who behave badly. If you think he was referring to all women, then you misread him."



If I can show you specifically where he uses the term "chubby screechtard" on his blog to describe random, nameless, non-specific women...would you change your mind on this? Or would you then just excuse it with "oh he was just trying to be funny"?

Because if you would be even a tiny bit open to changing your mind, I would be happy to point it out for you. If you will just defend the crap, I won't bother.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

I agree Athol's discourse sometimes is a bit crude. His over all method and message is correct. It's working for me. Most married men over time forget what it was that drew their wives to marry them in the first place. The OP could use a refresher.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There are much better resources.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Baldguitarguy said:


> OK, I am NOT being mean SBMM, so please do not take it that way.
> 
> But THIS is the attitude that my wife has and it really annoys me.
> 
> ...


Information as to the cause of her lack of sexual interest from other threads on the subject: Her "emotional needs" are not being met or you are doing one of her "un-sexy triggers".

As to the former, your guess is as good as mine as to exactly what that means - nice and ethereal isn't it? As to the latter, do the dishes. Then, when you've applied this to all of the chores and and every possible unsexy trigger she might have and she still isn't interested, you will be pointed to "No more Mr. Nice guy" or MMSL.

You'll take care of yourself, and then you'll face accusations of neglect.

That target just keeps on movin' doesn't it? Yep. I'm a cynic.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

john_lord_b3 said:


> From most posts here in TAM, I see that the ones doing the withholding usually does not think it's a problem, as they are in the controlling position.


Yup, and those sharks can see the wounded fish in the water so they rush in and attack out of reflex action.

A person hurting in this way needs validation: having sex withheld is a legitimate grievance. 

There are people who make constructive comments, and all of us can improve ourselves one way or another. But there are also people that just like to kick a guy when he is down.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Yup, and those sharks can see the wounded fish in the water so they rush in and attack out of reflex action.
> 
> A person hurting in this way needs validation: having sex withheld is a legitimate grievance.
> 
> There are people who make constructive comments, and all of us can improve ourselves one way or another. But there are also people that just like to kick a guy when he is down.


You better believe it!

Yes, the absense of the sex and affection can cause a deep pain and yearning in an HD individual. It kinda feels like a pound of flesh being removed from the heart. However, if he can somehow center himself, and inject himself with self worth and self love, this pain can go away.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

treyvion said:


> He coulda done it because it is the right thing to do with the woman he loves... However after introspection, it is too high of an output for the input he is given for her.
> 
> It may have not been "covert contracts", but rather him giving from his heart, and then after realizing the balance established, it's not going to be ok to keep on going at that level.
> 
> There must be some pullback and re-alignment to the reality of the situation.


But that is not what he is posting. he talks about the wonderful things she does and how she can't be bothered to have sex with him because he did those things. That is the very definition of a covert contract.

I agree completely on pulling back and realigning. She is not meetings his needs. But that is why I asked about the needs he is meeting and what other needs he might not be. It is also why I agreed that His Needs/Her Needs may be helpful. Unfortunately, he has not responded to those posts, so I don't know where he is at.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> But that is not what he is posting. he talks about the wonderful things she does and how she can't be bothered to have sex with him because he did those things. That is the very definition of a covert contract.
> 
> I agree completely on pulling back and realigning. She is not meetings his needs. But that is why I asked about the needs he is meeting and what other needs he might not be. It is also why I agreed that His Needs/Her Needs may be helpful. Unfortunately, he has not responded to those posts, so I don't know where he is at.


After smacking your head into the "i have needs" wall... You realize, its OK to have needs. Everyone has needs! Feel great about it and you should!


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

treyvion said:


> You better believe it!
> 
> Yes, the absense of the sex and affection can cause a deep pain and yearning in an HD individual. It kinda feels like a pound of flesh being removed from the heart. However, if he can somehow center himself, and inject himself with self worth and self love, this pain can go away.


And by having this "pain", there are many who could be interested in him, but they sense he's "thirsty" and to a majority its just not attractive for them to know that. They'd rather hear he was highly promiscous... It's all a state of mind.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> If I can show you specifically where he uses the term "chubby screechtard" on his blog to describe random, nameless, non-specific women...would you change your mind on this? Or would you then just excuse it with "oh he was just trying to be funny"?


If you mean that I should interpret his referring to random, non-specific women as screechtards as meaning that he believes that ALL women exhibit the same traits that warrant calling them screechtards, then no. I won't change my mind. I don't see why I should.

If you called a certain man a lazy bum, or said that some nonspecific men are lazy bums, I wouldn't assume that you think ALL men are lazy bums. And I certainly wouldn't assume that you couldn't possibly have any legitimate views on men.



> Because if you would be even a tiny bit open to changing your mind, I would be happy to point it out for you. If you will just defend the crap, I won't bother.


Given your past misinterpretations of MMSL, I don't think you should bother. I think you'll just assume that everything he says is crap, based on the fact that he uses course language and that you consistently misinterpret his message.

FWIW, I found the exact passage where he uses the term "chubby screechtards". And he was referring to a man who has a good wife being grateful for her when he looks around at various "chubby screechtards". So he explicitly acknowledges that some women are not screechtards and are worthy of committing to in a marriage.

Does this information change your mind? Or do you still believe that he thinks that ALL women are screechtards, even though he explicitly posted the opposite point of view?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PHTlump...I have read MMSL, plus many other marriage advice books. His book is crap. That's my opinion.

And I am happily married to a perfectly alpha male who I want sexually every day. Yet I still think MMSL is crap.

A few good points doesn't make a good book or plan. And a few hundred faithful followers doesn't make it good, either.

There are literally thousands of other books out there, and dozens which are best sellers with MILLIONS of readers and written by doctors and psychiatrists.

If someone wants to focus on that one little area that is MMSL, they are going to short change their understanding.

IMO.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

treyvion said:


> Now that I think about it. Marriage is KINDA like a covert contract. Part of the contract is we are going to take care of these needs that people get met on the single market. We are married and there is no reason to go to the single market to get these needs met, you have a spouse.


I think marriage is, or should be, an overt contract. Most people stand up in front of witnesses and take vows promising to love, honor, and cherish each other. To remain faithful to each other. There are laws in most jurisdictions allowing for divorce if one partner breaks the contract (adultery, abandonment, cruelty, etc.).

The problem is that many people want to ignore the vows. They pay no attention to them. At that point, the covert contracts kick in that are unhealthy. When your wife refuses to live up to her vows (overt contract), then many men will start cooking up covert contracts hoping that doing the dishes and the laundry will result in some nookie. And that rarely works.

However, as many of the women in this thread have shown, overt contracts don't work that well, either. At least, not at first. A woman will happily have sex with her husband as long as she finds him sexy. If she doesn't find him sexy, there's no amount of logic or appealing to her sense of morality or fair play that will part her knees.

For a sexless married man, a covert contract will rarely work. An overt contract will only work if his wife thinks he is sexy. If she doesn't, she'll just tell him to pound sand.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> PHTlump...I have read MMSL, plus many other marriage advice books. His book is crap. That's my opinion.


I recognize your opinion. I respectfully suggest that, since you have misinterpreted the two items in MMSL that you have posted here, you may well have misinterpreted several other major points. Thus, your opinion may not be as well informed as you believe.



> And I am happily married to a perfectly alpha male who I want sexually every day. Yet I still think MMSL is crap.


That's interesting. MMSL suggests that women think alpha males are sexy. You are married to an alpha male that you (presumably) think is sexy. Yet, you state that you disagree with MMSL. I wonder if you actually disagree with MMSL as much as you believe.



> A few good points doesn't make a good book or plan. And a few hundred faithful followers doesn't make it good, either.
> 
> There are literally thousands of other books out there, and dozens which are best sellers with MILLIONS of readers and written by doctors and psychiatrists.


You are correct. A few points doesn't necessarily mean a theory is good or bad. Just as the number of adherents doesn't mean that a plan is good or bad.

One need not believe in the theory of gravity in order for the theory to be valid. At one point in history, more people were ignorant of gravity than believed in it.

Personally, I spent years focusing on blue pill, popular relationship theories. And my wife became less and less attracted to me. Then, I stumbled on MMSL and changed tactics. Now, my marriage is stronger and my sex life is better than in the past. Perhaps I'm wrong and my wife is merely responding to solar flares, or global warming, and not my becoming more attractive as MMSL suggests. But I would rather be laid like tile than right and sexless.


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## ozymandias (Sep 22, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are much better resources.


Are there? I'm thinking specifically of some of the ev-psych and PUA sourced things that are intrinsic to MMSL. Sure, there are other places and ways the OP could learn these potentially marriage saving things. Unfortunately, most of these places are not nearly so marriage positive.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are much better resources.


I've read a lot them. His needs, her needs....etc. Sometimes a man needs to read about being a man again. What are better resources? I value YOUR opinion.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> I've read a lot them. His needs, her needs....etc. Sometimes a man needs to read about being a man again. What are better resources? I value your opinion.


The Art of Manliness | Men’s Interests and Lifestyle


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Art of Manliness isn't as focused on relationships as MMSL is. It's also fairly high on the White Knight scale. I would say Dalrock | Thoughts from a happily married father on a post feminist world. is better.

Although, for a sexless man needing emergency help for his marriage, nothing beats MMSL.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

I wanted to thank you for all of your feedback.

I still have not come to a conclusion on why I feel like I do, but sometimes it's good to try and process feelings and admit that you have them.

Perhaps the process of delving into them and just trying to get a different perspective is also therapeutic.

It is fascinating to see differing opinions and different ways of relating.

I assume that most of the people whom visit this forum have issues with their marriage, and I feel for all of you.

Thank you again for your input. It is greatly appreciated.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

I did have issues with intimacy with my wife at one point, but once I stopped being a Mr. Nice Guy, it appeared that things were getting better. My wife appreciates me more. She initiates flirtation and loving more. She even wants to have sex more. That's all I ever wanted.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

First step, start playing golf again.

Don't go crazy. But can you go once a quarter? Would that break the bank? Heck, you could probably cover the cost by cutting out one of her flower-buying trips to the Home Depot.

When you put yourself last, you convey to everyone else that it's OK for them to put you last, too. Maybe if you start feeling a little bit better about yourself, you won't be quite as fixated on what you don't have (steady sex with a loving wife.) 

Fix yourself first. Get No More Mr. Nice Guy or MMSL Primer and get to work on improving yourself. Then, let the chips fall where they may.

You may eventually discover that the person who should be blamed for the lackluster sex life in your relationship is actually.....you.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

Yeah, I haven't read MMSL, but I have read NMMNG. You definitely sound like a "Mr. Nice Guy." I was shocked at how much of me was in that book.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

If you don't have the guilt-free freedom to tell the person you married that you would like a weekly blow job, and the miniscule amount of twice a month sex, regardless of what bills you do, or do not pay, you shouldn't have married them. 

I'm so weary of seeing the WRONG PEOPLE getting married to one another. The OP is seriously sitting on a message board expressing guilt over wanting a _bare minimum_ amount of sexual activity from his WIFE. Why do people continue to persist, and downright insist, on pledging their entire lives in matrimony to people whom they don't feel comfortable making even the most rudimentary, understandable sexual requests?

And if, upon request, for this bare minimum level of sexual satisfaction your wife says "no", or starts in on the cavalcade of common "not tonight" excuses, have some dignity and self respect enough to call her out on it, and to MOVE ON if things do not improve. Few people get married in hopes that their spouse will resemble a nun or priest.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jaquen said:


> If you don't have the guilt-free freedom to tell the person you married that you would like a weekly blow job, and the miniscule amount of twice a month sex, regardless of what bills you do, or do not pay, you shouldn't have married them.
> 
> I'm so weary of seeing the WRONG PEOPLE getting married to one another. The OP is seriously sitting on a message board expressing guilt over wanting a _bare minimum_ amount of sexual activity from his WIFE. Why do people continue to persist, and downright insist, on pledging their entire lives in matrimony to people whom they don't feel comfortable making even the most rudimentary, understandable sexual requests?
> 
> And if, upon request, for this bare minimum level of sexual satisfaction your wife says "no", or starts in on the cavalcade of common "not tonight" excuses, have some dignity and self respect enough to call her out on it, and to MOVE ON if things do not improve. Few people get married in hopes that their spouse will resemble a nun or priest.


I think both of you should understand these things up front, and have discussed the various situations. What if one loses interest, do we degrade down into a minimum agreed "maintenance state". What about weight and takeing care of appearances? These are all things which can be agreed on up front, and a middle ground solution can be chosen, so it's not like ripping a pound of flesh.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jaquen said:


> I'm so weary of seeing the WRONG PEOPLE getting married to one another. The OP is seriously sitting on a message board expressing guilt over wanting a _bare minimum_ amount of sexual activity from his WIFE. Why do people continue to persist, and downright insist, on pledging their entire lives in matrimony to people whom they don't feel comfortable making even the most rudimentary, understandable sexual requests?
> 
> And if, upon request, for this bare minimum level of sexual satisfaction your wife says "no", or starts in on the cavalcade of common "not tonight" excuses, have some dignity and self respect enough to call her out on it, and to MOVE ON if things do not improve. Few people get married in hopes that their spouse will resemble a nun or priest.


I think this sounds great in theory, but in practice is very difficult to achieve. Sure, they should have had that talk early in dating to get on the same page. Unfortunately, they have not. So now what? They are married, have finances entangled and maybe even have kids. 

Not so simple to just end things now. Which is why these boards are so busy trying to help people fix what should have been dealt with long ago.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It really is that simple.

Just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.

"You mean I've had the power to go home all this time?"

Yes, Dorothy, yes you do.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> It really is that simple.
> 
> Just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz.
> 
> ...


So in my circumstances, where things were okay, we had three kids, but sex was not satisfactory, I should have just walked. We talked, but had limited luck, so just end it? 

I guess for some that works. Glad it did not for me.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If you are "happy enough", then no, don't walk.

Some people will not be "happy enough" that way, and those people should understand that they do have the final vote, with their feet. When someone really understands that no one is holding a gun to their head, that THEY are actually CHOOSING to stay, then that person can finally at least see the power they have.

Choosing to stay is fine!

Choosing to stay but being whiny and bitter about it and feeling like they are being held their against their will is a tragedy for all parties.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So in my circumstances, where things were okay, we had three kids, but sex was not satisfactory, I should have just walked. We talked, but had limited luck, so just end it?
> 
> I guess for some that works. Glad it did not for me.


I think its great that you were able to work things out in your marriage, but I think for a lot of people myself included a lack of intimacy is a deal breaker. Even if I had ten kids. If intimacy left my relationship I couldn't stay in it. For people like us, if the intimacy isn't there regardless of how great everything else is it isn't a marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think this sounds great in theory, but in practice is very difficult to achieve. Sure, they should have had that talk early in dating to get on the same page. Unfortunately, they have not. So now what? They are married, have finances entangled and maybe even have kids.
> 
> Not so simple to just end things now. Which is why these boards are so busy trying to help people fix what should have been dealt with long ago.


Many things in life aren't simple. But you do them anyway. It wasn't simple for the millions of couples, with entangled finances, and kids, to divorce, but they pulled it off. Human beings, we are resilient things.

I'm sorry, but regardless of the complexities, this board teaches you that the common alternatives, a lifetime of bitterness, resentment, and dissatisfaction, justify the complexity of ending a sexless, often loveless, marriage. 

I do believe you should do everything you can to save your marriage, including, and especially, working on self. But at the end of the day the goal HAS to be that you can sit down with your spouse and give a request for something as rudimentary as basic sexual satisfaction. While taking the journey to find your balls, do not forget to remind your lover that you will not tolerate sexul abandonment in your marriage. 

That's all I'm saying. This stuff is basic. Why, for whatever reason, stay wed to somebody you either can not say this stuff to, or if you can, you aren't likely to get a satisfactory result? If it's too complex, than simplify that dead weight right out of your life. I really feel most people could stand to remove everything, including bad spouses, that are adding unnecessary complications. Simplify!

Life on this Earth is just too damn brief for all this nonsense! I am very disturbed at this point by the endless streams of people who are caught up in plain bad marriages!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Choosing to stay but being whiny and bitter about it and feeling like they are being held their against their will is a tragedy for all parties.


I don't disagree. My point was that whining about all the people who got married instead of having a frank talk about sex to figure out if they should be together is not all that useful. It is easy to have that talk then walk if things don't sync up perfectly at that point. It is not quite as easy now, as people do need to balance all things and figure out what they can live with.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So in my circumstances, where things were okay, we had three kids, but sex was not satisfactory, I should have just walked. We talked, but had limited luck, so just end it?
> 
> I guess for some that works. *Glad it did not for me.*


But how do you qualify for this line of discussion if you are glad you stayed married despite a sh*tty sex life?

There are no fast and hard rules here. I advocate people make GOOD marriages that they are glad to be in. This doesn't mean perfection, there is no such thing, but if, after all is said and done, you feel glad that you stayed married, that's all that matters.

This conjecture ultimately has nothing to do with you if your sexual disappointment just isn't enough to ruin your marriage.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

jaquen said:


> But how do you qualify for this line of discussion if you are glad you stayed married despite a sh*tty sex life?
> 
> There are no fast and hard rules here. I advocate people make GOOD marriages that they are glad to be in. This doesn't mean perfection, there is no such thing, but if, after all is said and done, you feel glad that you stayed married, that's all that matters.
> 
> This conjecture ultimately has nothing to do with you if your sexual disappointment just isn't enough to ruin your marriage.


I concur with your post. If you're happy in a sexless marriage more power to you. My issue is with the individuals that suffer in silence for years. The ones that don't say anything for years and end up getting divorced anyway. Its even more tragic when their seemingly non-sexual spouse suddenly gets their groove back with some random new person.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

When a woman posts about how their husband no longer listens to her, shows no respect, and is emotionally distant and no longer cares about who she is, most of the gals tell her to dump the bastard and find a great guy who will love and cherish her. But when a guy talks about how his wife basically treats him the same way by starving him sexually the gals always seem to think it is the guy's fault -- as if he is just not doing what he needs to do to woo her or whatever. 

I get tired of the double standard. A sex-starved, sexually dissatisfied husband will really have to dig deep to find any woo. Instead, he will see other couples kissing in the park and long for the intimacy he is missing. He will wonder why his wife, who seemed to enjoy sex with him when they were first together, now has very little interest in him.

This is so common that it is almost considered normal. For every 1 woman who complains about not getting enough sexual intimacy from her husband there are 1,000,000 men are saying the same thing.

Why do you think the kings of old (and some still today) married so many women? It wasn't just to have a bunch of kids. It was to solve the "I have a headache" or "I'm sorry, I'm just not in the mood" problem.

The solution is to make a lot more money and start flaunting it. Get a makeover and flirt a lot. Buy a convertable sports car (bright red) and get dressed to kill. Go to the gym and get some serious muscles. Advertise that you are financially independent and lonely. Take testoterone boosters. The moment you start getting noticed by younger women your wife will be magically drawn to you.

By the way, the post was just mostly all sarcasm.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"The moment you start getting noticed by younger women your wife will be magically drawn to you."



I honestly wish it was that easy, for men AND women who are HD and in sexless marriages.

But if your spouse is truly LD, all the other people in the world wanting to bang you will make ZERO difference to your LD spouse.

Just ask Lady of the Lake. If young babes were flirting with her husband when she was refusing him sex, would it have made her be magically drawn to him for sex suddenly?

Perhaps a few lucky couples can work things out this way. But I would say that in those couples, neither spouse is truly LD.


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## LadyOfTheLake (Feb 25, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> "The moment you start getting noticed by younger women your wife will be magically drawn to you."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely not. It would have irritated me, and I would have been aggravated that he was behaving like a silly little boy. It would not have turned me on at all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

euyop...well you had me fooled, so disregard my posts that followed yours.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Perhaps a few lucky couples can work things out this way. But I would say that in those couples, neither spouse is truly LD.


I agree that a truly LD spouse can't really be seduced. However, I don't think that most sexless marriages are the result of truly LD spouses. I think most spouses that behave as LD spouses actually have normal libidos that just aren't focused on their spouses.

Most women who withhold sex from their husbands will still read romance novels, or enjoy watching a TV show or movie starring their favorite, hunky actor. They will appreciate watching the attractive neighbor mow his lawn with his shirt off. They just don't want to have sex with their husbands.

In those marriages, the husbands can often change their behavior and refocus their wives libidos back onto them. The Coping with Infidelity board is full of men who gave up on sex with their frigid wives, only to discover these same women doing the Kama Sutra with a coworker.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

jaquen said:


> But how do you qualify for this line of discussion if you are glad you stayed married despite a sh*tty sex life?


Because I did more than just have a couple of talks. I actually did some work on myself. Figured out somethings about how my actions were not working for either of us. Changed some things, and got us to a place where we could have some of those talks and have them be useful

My issue is not with talks, it was with the frustration that people should have talked before they got married. Sure, that would have been infinitely better, but seeing as this is a marriage board, probably not that fruitful. 



> There are no fast and hard rules here. I advocate people make GOOD marriages that they are glad to be in. This doesn't mean perfection, there is no such thing, but if, after all is said and done, you feel glad that you stayed married, that's all that matters.
> 
> This conjecture ultimately has nothing to do with you if your sexual disappointment just isn't enough to ruin your marriage.


I think it does, perhaps even more than for you. I did not have those initial talks with my wife. Stupid, I know, but I did not understand the importance at the time. So as our sex life deteriorated, I was ill equipped to deal with it. My few brief talks were ineffective for countless reasons. 

You post seems to suggest that I should have just left at that point. I do agree that leaving may ultimately be what needs to be done. I disagree at the implicit suggestion that it is so soon in the process. Rather, in an intertwined life, with finances and kids and a good history, you should do the work to see what can be saved, not just throw in the towel after a couple of talks.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Eyuop I really think its closer to 60% - 40%. Athol says the letters and emails he gets are 50-50.


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

eyuop said:


> When a woman posts about how their husband no longer listens to her, shows no respect, and is emotionally distant and no longer cares about who she is, most of the gals tell her to dump the bastard and find a great guy who will love and cherish her. But when a guy talks about how his wife basically treats him the same way by starving him sexually the gals always seem to think it is the guy's fault -- as if he is just not doing what he needs to do to woo her or whatever.


Well...this is basically where I am at right now.


It was also pointed out that if you are sexually unhappy, for a extended period of time, that one should stop *****ing and move on.

*Number one:* I gather that the purpose of this forum is not so everyone can come here and brag about how much sex they are getting. It's purpose, IS to work though painful emotions in an anomoyous way - and to ***** about how one is feeling.

*Number two:* Life is not that simple to just walk away when something is not working. There is no promise that things will be different with someone else. There is also the commitment I made when I got married. If I did not believe in that commitment, I would go out and bang random women which I have never done (I play in a cover band, so I have ample opportunities with drunken 40 yo MILF's every other weekend that throw themselves at anyone holding a guitar - so I know it's not about me - but still - it's available).

*Number three:* I realize there is a strong possibility that my wife is just no longer into me. Hey - I DO NOT look the same as I did 26 years ago when we first married. For one thing, I had long flowing hair that I flung back and forth on stage while playing my guitar - NOW - notsomuch - it left me - that sucks. I am bald baby. And I realize that one day she could say - "Hey, I am moving on, thanks" and go have rockstar sex with someone else (rebound sex as some of my divorced friends tell me).

And maybe that leads me back to my original issue.

I feel used/taken advantage of/ignored/etc.

I work so hard....yet....nothing I do matters and the situation will not change.

I have been following a thread for several months here (I only have posted 2-3 before a few days ago) about BPD. And I wonder if that is the issue in my marriage.

Yet...with all this said - I do love my wife.

It is a commitment love - there seems to be no more passion in our relationship - but steady day by day - plodding along.

I suppose the question I am now wondering is, how long can someone stay healthy in this type of relationship. Certainly - after four years in this pattern - I seem to be growing weary.

It goes back to my original issue - there should be a give and take in any relationship. I don't always feel like paying the mortgage. She doesn't always feel like giving me sex. To bad - I need to pay the mortgage - she needs to give me sex.

Still, that's f**ked up.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

jaquen said:


> And if, upon request, for this bare minimum level of sexual satisfaction your wife says "no", or starts in on the cavalcade of common "not tonight" excuses, have some dignity and self respect enough to call her out on it, and to MOVE ON if things do not improve. Few people get married in hopes that their spouse will resemble a nun or priest.


Sunk costs. Its what kept me married for far longer than I should have been. The notion that you can keep throwing good money after bad and encourage some return on what you've already thrown away.

I've known it since college. For some reason I never thought to apply it to non-business life. Sunk costs are sunk. The only question is whether something is a good investment now on its present merit, not on the basis that you've already got so much in it. Throwing more money at a bad investment is only a waste of more money.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Perhaps I missed it but what does she say when you tell her you feel the marriage is in trouble? 

You need to stop comparing sex to a job, as many have stated. Forcing yourself to go to work is different than forcing yourself to have sex. Do you want your wife to force herself to have sex with you? If that is the case and you want your wife to treat sex like a job, maybe you aren't paying her enough 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Baldguitarguy said:


> *Number three:* I realize there is a strong possibility that my wife is just no longer into me. Hey - I DO NOT look the same as I did 26 years ago when we first married. For one thing, I had long flowing hair that I flung back and forth on stage while playing my guitar - NOW - notsomuch - it left me - that sucks. I am bald baby. And I realize that one day she could say - "Hey, I am moving on, thanks" and go have rockstar sex with someone else (rebound sex as some of my divorced friends tell me).


What else about you was she really into? Has that changed? Personally, I had gotten too serious over time. Stress of the job, providing the income, helping out - I quit laughing, joking and having fun. All work and no play. I have adjusted that and become more fun to be around. My wife likes it.

So, are there things you left behind that originally attracted her that you can get back into?


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I concur with your post. If you're happy in a sexless marriage more power to you. My issue is with the individuals that suffer in silence for years. The ones that don't say anything for years and end up getting divorced anyway. Its even more tragic when their seemingly non-sexual spouse suddenly gets their groove back with some random new person.


Right, the entire time they were having growing contempt for you in remaining in the position, even if it's what they appeared to want.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Baldguitarguy said:


> I gather that the purpose of this forum is not so everyone can come here and brag about how much sex they are getting. It's purpose, IS to work though painful emotions in an anomoyous way - and to ***** about how one is feeling.


Not really. I think its number one purpose is to help SOLVE marital problems. If you aren't having sex with your wife, there are several men on this board, including me, who have been where you are. And we solved the problem.

If you would like to solve the problem, then we will tell you how we did it. There is a decent chance it will work for you. If you aren't interested in solving the problem, and you just want to vent your anger, then I suggest you title your threads "VENT: xxx" so that we don't waste time suggesting possible solutions.



> I feel used/taken advantage of/ignored/etc.
> 
> I work so hard....yet....nothing I do matters and the situation will not change.


Correction. Nothing you HAVE DONE has mattered. That is not the same as saying that nothing you could possibly do would matter. If you try to change your spark plugs without opening the hood to your car, you will never be successful. That doesn't mean it's impossible to change your spark plugs.



> I suppose the question I am now wondering is, how long can someone stay healthy in this type of relationship. Certainly - after four years in this pattern - I seem to be growing weary.


Everyone is different. Some people can be totally happy in a sexless marriage. Some people are crushed. Some people can adjust to it by having affairs, or having an open marriage where your wife knows you have sex with other women. And some men just change their behavior, which makes their wives want to have sex with them. I can't say what you're willing to do, or not do, and how long you're willing to do it, or not do it.



> It goes back to my original issue - there should be a give and take in any relationship. I don't always feel like paying the mortgage. She doesn't always feel like giving me sex. To bad - I need to pay the mortgage - she needs to give me sex.
> 
> Still, that's f**ked up.


Yep. And every single woman in the world will deny you sex if you try to argue that they are obligated to. You're using logic. Did the debate team get all the quality chicks at your high school or college? Or was it the jocks, rich boys, handsome boys?

You can complain forever about how unfair the world is. But it won't change for you. The world is exactly how it is. Your choice is to accept it, adjust to it, and possibly be happy, or continue to complain about how unfair it is. What's it going to be?


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## Baldguitarguy (Jul 31, 2012)

PHT wrote:

Not really. I think its number one purpose is to help SOLVE marital problems. If you aren't having sex with your wife, there are several men on this board, including me, who have been where you are. And we solved the problem.

If you would like to solve the problem, then we will tell you how we did it. There is a decent chance it will work for you. If you aren't interested in solving the problem, and you just want to vent your anger, then I suggest you title your threads "VENT: xxx" so that we don't waste time suggesting possible solutions.


PHT, I was referring to this comment:




jaquen said:


> That's all I'm saying. This stuff is basic. Why, for whatever reason, stay wed to somebody you either can not say this stuff to, or if you can, you aren't likely to get a satisfactory result? If it's too complex, than simplify that dead weight right out of your life. I really feel most people could stand to remove everything, including bad spouses, that are adding unnecessary complications. Simplify!
> 
> Life on this Earth is just too damn brief for all this nonsense! I am very disturbed at this point by the endless streams of people who are caught up in plain bad marriages!




I DO appreciate the input, and thank you for your thoughts.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

eyuop said:


> When a woman posts about how their husband no longer listens to her, shows no respect, and is emotionally distant and no longer cares about who she is, most of the gals tell her to dump the bastard and find a great guy who will love and cherish her. But when a guy talks about how his wife basically treats him the same way by starving him sexually the gals always seem to think it is the guy's fault -- as if he is just not doing what he needs to do to woo her or whatever.
> 
> I get tired of the double standard. A sex-starved, sexually dissatisfied husband will really have to dig deep to find any woo. Instead, he will see other couples kissing in the park and long for the intimacy he is missing. He will wonder why his wife, who seemed to enjoy sex with him when they were first together, now has very little interest in him.


You nailed this. Every simple terms of affection in the world, that you can see every day as normal and not contrived is torture when you can't get it.



eyuop said:


> This is so common that it is almost considered normal. For every 1 woman who complains about not getting enough sexual intimacy from her husband there are 1,000,000 men are saying the same thing.
> 
> Why do you think the kings of old (and some still today) married so many women? It wasn't just to have a bunch of kids. It was to solve the "I have a headache" or "I'm sorry, I'm just not in the mood" problem.


I have a headache or I'm not in the mood only works several times. As usual in this situation when the man are in the situation you blame the man, when a woman is in the situation you blame the man.



eyuop said:


> The solution is to make a lot more money and start flaunting it. Get a makeover and flirt a lot. Buy a convertable sports car (bright red) and get dressed to kill. Go to the gym and get some serious muscles. Advertise that you are financially independent and lonely. Take testoterone boosters. The moment you start getting noticed by younger women your wife will be magically drawn to you.
> 
> By the way, the post was just mostly all sarcasm.


You do this for yourself. It's not to show off at all. It's self love. If the wife or soon to be ex won't do it, you may as well.... You should have never stopped. Women respond more to "social proofing" then men. Loving yourself in this way, perhaps getting along with some groups out there will give you social proof and your not even doing it to get a rise out of her, your doing it because you may as well.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> My issue is with the individuals that suffer in silence for years. The ones that don't say anything for years and end up getting divorced anyway. Its even more tragic when their seemingly non-sexual spouse suddenly gets their groove back with some random new person.


I understand it's very painful but is it really tragic? Finally she's having good sex and you're free to find someone you can have good sex with. Win-win.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PHT said: "Most women who withhold sex from their husbands will still read romance novels, or enjoy watching a TV show or movie starring their favorite, hunky actor. They will appreciate watching the attractive neighbor mow his lawn with his shirt off. They just don't want to have sex with their husbands.

In those marriages, the husbands can often change their behavior and refocus their wives libidos back onto them. The Coping with Infidelity board is full of men who gave up on sex with their frigid wives, only to discover these same women doing the Kama Sutra with a coworker."

Right.

But it doesn't matter if she is LD or just LD for her husband.

People KNOW when their spouse is into them or not. When you are there, in complete understanding that your spouse isn't into you (even if you'd rather not know this but you most certainly DO know it), yet you expect to be desired by your spouse anyway...well then I'm gonna say to that person "wtf are you thinking?"

If your spouse isn't into you, sure, try to figure it out. Try to turn it back around. Try to get back into shape or whatever has to happen. I get what the MAP is for and the 180 behaviors. They work for women sometimes, too.

But if your changes don't net in quick changes, (even though some advice is to put in a year or two at it), I say cut your losses and use that year instead to get yourself into a better place for your own, likely divorced, future.

I've followed people's stories for YEARS. In most cases, when a woman isn't into a man, this doesn't change no matter how many changes he makes because usually she has mentally rejected him forever and he can't change her mind for her. So when the man puts in years trying to change this dynamic, he gets hurt and broken for LONGER, and then still many times ends up divorced.


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## MaritimeGuy (Jul 28, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If your spouse isn't into you, sure, try to figure it out. Try to turn it back around. Try to get back into shape or whatever has to happen. I get what the MAP is for and the 180 behaviors. They work for women sometimes, too.
> 
> But if your changes don't net in quick changes, (even though some advice is to put in a year or two at it), I say cut your losses and use that year instead to get yourself into a better place for your own, likely divorced, future.


At the time you initiate these changes you don't need to have your mind made up. Bottom line is you're doing it for yourself...not to get a particular outcome from someone else.

If these changes bring your marriage back to a loving state...great. That's the most desirable outcome. 

If they don't then at a bare minimum you can be proud of who you've become under difficult circumstances. 

Although it's the last reason you should set out making these changes there is a very good liklihood they will make you more desirable to someone else should you divorce.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Maritime, yes. But....the one difference I am trying to point out, is that people should spend more time getting mentally prepared for divorce. The emotions are what are hard to deal with when getting divorced...and YES, it sucks just as much as you fear it will. Actually it is WORSE than you fear it will be.

But that is why it hits people so hard when it happens. Because they really haven't even started to mentally prepare for it. They may have been 180-ing with the mantra that they are doing it for themselves. But we all know that any person doing a 180 still has hope for their marriage and is praying in their hearts every day that their spouse will get into them again.

But in reality, their spouse likely won't. And that reality is what people need to face and begin dealing with.

IT HURTS.

But once you get through the hurt, THEN you can truly do a 180 for yourself.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

MrBrains said:


> Eyuop I really think its closer to 60% - 40%. Athol says the letters and emails he gets are 50-50.


That's interesting, since all of the men I know wish they had more sex. Time for a nation-wide poll.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

eyuop said:


> That's interesting, since all of the men I know wish they had more sex. Time for a nation-wide poll.


Remember married men are only 1/2 of your equation. Ask Mrsoffshore.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You post seems to suggest that I should have just left at that point. I do agree that leaving may ultimately be what needs to be done. I disagree at the implicit suggestion that it is so soon in the process. Rather, in an intertwined life, with finances and kids and a good history, you should do the work to see what can be saved, not just throw in the towel after a couple of talks.


I tried not to leave that impression. I am very pro-marriage, as long as both parties really want to stay married and are willing to work through the inevitable rough patches.

The reason why I said this doesn't apply to you is because you don't seem to have ever thought of your marriage as a lost cause. Despite the difficulties, you were willing to press in and correct it. I was referring to people who have tried, and it's obviously a lost cause. The people who are wasting their lives in misery filled marriages, all for the sake of some kids, or mutual financial benefits. Why spend the precious little time we have on Earth in a marriage that makes you absolutely miserable?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

MaritimeGuy said:


> I understand it's very painful but is it really tragic? Finally she's having good sex and you're free to find someone you can have good sex with. Win-win.


I definitely do think its tragic. I feel this way because in most cases you have two people who couldn't keep their hands off of each other in the beginning and then one day one party loses interest and the fire burns out. They struggle with this for a while (in some cases years) only to find passion elsewhere. To me this is not a win-win. You've wasted a bunch of time in a passionless relationship, and on top of that it would have been much easier to work on your original relationship. 

Of course I have made some assumptions here, if you were one of those unfortunate souls that married someone you weren't attracted to in the first place this does not apply.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> .... The people who are wasting their lives in misery filled marriages, all for the sake of some kids, or mutual financial benefits. Why spend the precious little time we have on Earth in a marriage that makes you absolutely miserable?


"Some kids"...lets not undervalue the desire for some people to stay with their spouse to not lose the ability to see their kids everyday. I know kids are better off living in a happy home but if the only issue is frequency of sex, it's not that easy of a decision. 
Dating and finding someone else that will love you and your kids isn't that easy of a task either. If you are truly miserable then yes, it isn't good for you or the kids. Some people may find the alternative sounds like an even worse situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> "Some kids"...l*ets not undervalue the desire for some people to stay with their spouse to not lose the ability to see their kids everyday*. I know kids are better off living in a happy home but if the only issue is frequency of sex, it's not that easy of a decision.
> Dating and finding someone else that will love you and your kids isn't that easy of a task either. If you are truly miserable then yes, it isn't good for you or the kids. Some people may find the alternative sounds like an even worse situation.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Point taken, and well received.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Holland said:


> This is incorrect and a statement that actually does a lot of damage. Before making such unfounded assumptions please consider that your statement does nothing but perpetuate the myth that women are the rejectors and that men are always the rejected. Wrong.


I guess you are right. There are many selfish and cheating husbands who are neglecting their wifes emotional and physical needs.

There are also many selfish and cheating wives who are neglecting their husbands emotional and physical needs.

Is it 1 to 1,000,000? Of course not.

Is it 1 to 1? Probably not exactly.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"The problem is that women often do not admit it when they are the rejected because society puts forth the notion that it is rare, therefore she feels abnormal."


This is completely true, and I personally know at least 5 HD women who have LD husbands. When these women try to talk about their issues, they are told their husbands must be gay. Well, guess what, they aren't gay they are just LD. How many times would a woman keep asking for help with this issue if "he's gay" is the only thing anyone offers?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm pretty sure the latest data is beginning to point toward men becoming nearly equal to women in withholding sex within a relationship or marriage.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I'm pretty sure the latest data is beginning to point toward men becoming nearly equal to women in withholding sex within a relationship or marriage.


Many of these 30-50% of men who are cheating on their wives, are not having sex or taking care of the emotional needs of their wives. They don't care.

The flip is the same for the 30-50% of women who are cheating on their husbands.

And then we have other reasons, like serious weight gain, "power view", selfishness, etc.

It's no surprise.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

treyvion said:


> I guess you are right. There are many selfish and cheating husbands who are neglecting their wifes emotional and physical needs.
> 
> There are also many selfish and cheating wives who are neglecting their husbands emotional and physical needs.
> 
> ...


It's a lot closer to 1 to 1 than most people realize. What i have read is that the number of men who end the sex life in their marriage is about equal to the number of women who do.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Which then makes me wonder if the reasons men are ending sex are similar to the reasons women have been taking it off the menu.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Which then makes me wonder if the reasons men are ending sex are similar to the reasons women have been taking it off the menu.


Well you see how i analyzed it. I'm pretty sure over all male or female it's the same reasons, and half the time it's for terrible reasons ( cheating ).

Now I see. In a responsible and loving relationship, a pain point like this would not grow too far out of wack. You might not get it all the times you think you should, but it would be closer to a midpoint of you guys needs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Which then makes me wonder if the reasons men are ending sex are similar to the reasons women have been taking it off the menu.


I think that for the most part, men and women do this for the same reasons.

One book I read about men who withhold sex (creating a sexless marriage) do so as an expression of resentment.

This seems to ring true in a lot of the marriages for people here who say that their wife is withhold sex.

Now some of them probably have told their spouses many many times that there are problems. But the spouse things that they are full of it and refuses to address the issues. After all its all in their husband's/wife's head.

And then some of the never say anything (or say very little) and just use it as a passive agressive way to display their anger/resentment.

Both men and women would have a very hard time having sex with someone they are very angry at or who they have a lot of resentment towards.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

There is "withholding" sex, and then there is being LD. I think the LD part is about 30% of the whole population, men and women.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Funny Elegirl, the first word that rang in my head upon reading these last few posts about men and withholding was "resentment".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jaquen said:


> Funny Elegirl, the first word that rang in my head upon reading these last few posts about men and withholding was "resentment".


Please explain a bit more about what you mean here.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Please explain a bit more about what you mean here.


It just seems natural to me that the leading non-physical cause of men withholding would be resentment against their wives.

Resentment if she withheld first.

Resentment over her choosing to be a mother before wife.

Resentment over her making more money than him.

Whatever. I am wondering if men are more likely to withhold because of resentment against their wives, vs the many reasons that are often attributed to women for withholding. I think resentment plays an enormous role in why both sexes withhold and reject, but I do wonder if it's likely to play an even more substantial role in men withholding.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

jaquen said:


> It just seems natural to me that the leading non-physical cause of men withholding would be resentment against their wives.
> 
> Resentment if she withheld first.
> 
> ...


Resentment is something else. When you have it, you feel as if you couldn't even MAKE yourself do it...


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> But like FW said, there is witholding sex and then there is LD. It is important to understand what a person is dealing with.


I don't think naturally LD people withhold. I think they simply just don't initiate.

Can a LD get to the point of actively withholding? Absolutely. But I do think genuinely LD people get a bad wrap for withholding when sometimes that's not their intention at all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I don't think naturally LD people withhold. I think they simply just don't initiate."

Based on one of my female friend's experience, LD men do not just "not initiate". They also withhold, in the sense that, there are times when they "can" have sex but don't find a way to make it happen. One of my gf's hasn't had sex with her husband in over a year. He is LD, always has been. But eventually in their over 10 year marriage, when she stopped doing all the work to make sex happen, it fell off the map. He knows he is LD, he knows she wants sex. He knows she stopped initiating. He even knows this might cause a divorce.

Yet, he remains with his head buried in the sand, just waiting for his fate.

Apparently the thought of intimacy is worse than the thought of divorce.

I would call this withholding by an LD spouse, but the original issue is the LD, not the withholding.


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## DvlsAdvc8 (Feb 15, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "I don't think naturally LD people withhold. I think they simply just don't initiate."
> 
> Based on one of my female friend's experience, LD men do not just "not initiate". *They also withhold, in the sense that, there are times when they "can" have sex but don't find a way to make it happen.* One of my gf's hasn't had sex with her husband in over a year. He is LD, always has been. But eventually in their over 10 year marriage, when she stopped doing all the work to make sex happen, it fell off the map. He knows he is LD, he knows she wants sex. He knows she stopped initiating. He even knows this might cause a divorce.
> 
> ...


The bold above seems contradictory. Not initiating is the same as withholding? I define these things differently. If she initiates and gets sex, I don't think he's withholding. If so, most of the women I've ever known withhold by this definition - for the mere fact that they hate initiating, not because they don't want sex. They simply expect the guy to initiate.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"This type of LD requires some heavy duty counseling."

Right. And in my friend's case, there is no smoking gun. No obvious reason for her husband's complete inability to deal with intimacy. He may just have zero testosterone, but that doesn't explain the mental portion of it. Being "meh" about sex (low T) isn't the same as being literally terrified of sex for no obvious reason.

Her husband literally won't touch her, hug, kiss, nothing...because he is afraid she will try to turn that into sex. After many years of this battle, she finally gave up. Now there is literally no affection OR sex.

She is just waiting until the kids are old enough, then she will leave him.

This is just ONE of the several gf's I have who have LD husbands. Other stories are similar, some are different. 

I'm just trying to help point out that women suffer in shame about this issue a lot of times.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I think any LD person that just naturally has little to no interest in sex really is not actively withholding IF they only initiate/participate based off their natural cycle. 

That's not to say that a LD person can't become a chronic withholder. Of course they can, and they do.

But I do think LD people get a bad rap sometimes when they're accused of withholding and the truth is they simply never even thought about it.

I think the main problem with genuinely LD people who entered a marriage in that state is that they should never, ever have married an HD person. It's a disastrous combo in most cases. And the inverse applies. I never cease to be amazed by the amount of HD people who voluntarily married a spouse who they were well aware BEFORE marriage had little interest in sex.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"I think the main problem with genuinely LD people who entered a marriage in that state is that they should never, ever have married an HD person."

This is the problem in every sexually mismatched marriage.

LD people really have no understanding though of how big of a problem this will be in marriage. HD people who have never been married rarely do, either.

How do we educate people who aren't married yet?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

By the way....I have adult kids. And they do respect me and ask me for advice. AND I do give them advice....yet I can see one of my kids' marriages is heading toward sexless....I did try to talk to them before marriage.

There is just no way to convince a couple who are in love that they might end up divorced. They won't believe you. They will think they are somehow different than the people who got divorced.

sigh....


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holland - that pretty much mirrors my gf's experience.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> ETA to respond to your other point about the LD getting a bad wrap. Sometimes they deserve it, if a partner is telling them that there is a problem and that action needs to be taken then the LD has notice that something needs to be done. Inaction at this point is deliberate with holding.


Yes, in action _at that point_ is indeed withholding. I wasn't addressing that.

I was addressing this:



Holland said:


> LD people that are honest from day one are not the issue.


Day one honest LDers seem to be in a pretty slim minority. A lot of people walk clean into marriage knowing they are LD, but lie about it. They think that giving enough sex before marriage, or at the top of a marriage, is a down payment on a low sex marriage later on. It's an "I've done my time now lets move on" attitude. I think the biggest issue with "day one" LDers is a lack of blunt honesty. This is a very different type from the person who becomes LD after marriage, or only realizes it later on. At least they can honestly plead ignorance.

I'm really just trying to be fair here. Historically I have come down pretty hard on the LDers, and I'm attempting to give credit where credit is due. There are LDers who do not withhold on purpose, which is my only point.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My gf found support at a forum like this one...but of course, there is no answer. She still will have to leave him. She doesn't even bother seeking support anymore because it is what it is, she knows there is nothing to be done. She doesn't even bother to go to MC with him anymore. He claims he is willing to, but when the MC gives them assignments to do at home, he avoids them as if they were rabies shots, so she gave up.

She's just waiting it out.

However, I am honestly afraid she is giving herself cancer in the meantime.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Jaquen said: "A lot of people walk clean into marriage knowing they are LD, but lie about it. They think that giving enough sex before marriage, or at the top of a marriage, is a down payment on a low sex marriage later on. It's an "I've done my time now lets move on" attitude. I think the biggest issue with "day one" LDers is a lack of blunt honesty. This is a very different type from the person who becomes LD after marriage, or only realizes it later on. At least they can honestly plead ignorance."


I really don't think it is like this. I believe people are in love and simply have no clue that being LD will cause a divorce one day.

Who knows how hard of work marriage is BEFORE they actually enter marriage?

No one.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

She is currently experincing several health problems.

Unfortunately, her H is ALSO experiencing health problems, and he is using those problems to further distance himself from her. So her problems are largely being ignored, while he spends all his time worrying over his own health.

It's pretty sad.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I really don't think it is like this. I believe people are in love and simply have no clue that being LD will cause a divorce one day.
> 
> Who knows how hard of work marriage is BEFORE they actually enter marriage?
> 
> No one.


Yes, but we MUST get to the point as a society where it's common place for potential spouses to have frank, brutally honest conversations about sex, sexuality, and sexual expectations before we get married. Our inherent cultural prudishness is leading people to take a "it'll work itself out" attitude toward sex that, if prevented, might help staunch divorce and bitter marriages when two people just are honest enough to say "we really don't fit".

Nobody can truly convey what marriage will be like for you. But as somebody who entered into marriage on the back of a VERY frank, very honest and open relationship, it's no surprised that we have a great marriage. There have been very little surprises with us. We knew, going in, who we married (with the acknowledgement that there is no way to account for the typical changes that might, and will, arrive down the line).

Also this view doesn't account for the many, many LDers who bait-n-switch.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Jaquen: "Yes, but we MUST get to the point as a society where it's common place for potential spouses to have frank, brutally honest conversations about sex, sexuality, and sexual expectations before we get married."

I'm saying these talks don't make any difference when they happen between young fools in love who have no clue that being LD will cause a divorce.

One of my kids being an example of this.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There is a distinct difference between being LD and withholding sex for the difference reasons such as anger & resentment.

There is nothing wrong with being LD. I do think that both spouses should work to try to bring bring their sex drives closer together. This means that a LD spouse would get their hormone levels checked.The couple can go to a sex therapist to see what can be done.

LD and withholding need to be handled differently as they stem from different things.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm saying these talks don't make any difference when they happen between young fools in love who have no clue that being LD will cause a divorce.
> 
> One of my kids being an example of this.


But how do we know when most couples do not have these frank discussions? Of all the married people we know, NONE of them had the kind of deep, indepth, expansive discussions about sexual expectations in marriage that we did.

I'm not saying it's going to make young fools in love back off. But it just might help people have enough info going in to be aware, and somewhat ready to handle the challenges. 

A TON of people end up saying "if I had known they were like this from day one I wouldn't married them". The norm is not frankness. The norm is willful ignorance, or often downright deciept.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Also this view doesn't account for the many, many LDers who bait-n-switch."

I honestly don't know anyone who has knowingly done a bait and switch. We can make judgments about other people's reasons, but unless a person actually SAYS they did this on purpose, I would not assume that they did.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"But how do we know when most couples do not have these frank discussions?"

Because like I'm saying, some of them DO have these frank discussions. And they just say "oh yeah yeah, I totally get it...TOTALLY...so yeah, if we hit trouble, we will consult an MC or the priest or whatever."

And since these young lovers are madly in love, they honestly believe their own intentions. People cannot predict even their OWN future behavior when they get married young and in love. In that time of their life, they have no clue what it takes to actually have a good, married sex life. And it takes more than two young people who are hormone-ally bonded to each other.

The talk I tried having with my kid was pretty bottom line like, "hey, I am divorced from your dad for sexual reasons. You need to realize that if your married sex life dies, your marriage will, too".

The answer was "oh yeah...yeah...I get it! Right now things are great in our sex life but if that changes I'll stay on top of things".

A year later I hear that same child talking about how they couldn't remember the last time they had sex and guessing it might have been months ago.

4 years later now, and to me they look sexless.

They haven't hit the hard patches either. They are both just fairly low drive.

Now in their case, because they are both fairly low drive, they might make it. But I'm guessing at some point, one of them is going to freak out.

And we all know where that leads....


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> "Also this view doesn't account for the many, many LDers who bait-n-switch."
> 
> I honestly don't know anyone who has knowingly done a bait and switch. We can make judgments about other people's reasons, but unless a person actually SAYS they did this on purpose, I would not assume that they did.


Any person who ups the sex during the dating/engagement phase, knowing full well that they're having more sex to appear more attractive, is guilty of a bait-n-switch.

There are way, way too many marriages where the sex life goes to the graveyard within the first six months to a year of marriage. 

There are lots of people on TAM alone who have been the victims of very clear bait-n-switch spouses.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Any person who ups the sex during the dating/engagement phase, knowing full well that they're having more sex to appear more attractive, is guilty of a bait-n-switch."

But ALL relationships have more sex during the dating/engagement phase.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> But ALL relationships have more sex during the dating/engagement phase.



We waited, so no that's obviously not true for ALL relationships.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Having waited, you are in the minority.

Again, unless someone specifically admitted to upping the sex during engagement just to trap someone...I wouldn't assume they did.

I have read thousands of stories and have never come across anyone saying "oh yeah, I knew I wasn't into sex but I was pretending just so I could snare a mate".

Yet I have read many other confessions, like "I just didn't realize how much it was hurting him/her, and at that time I didn't care". So if this was the case, I would assume someone somewhere would also admit to the bait and switch.

KWIM?

WHERE are thesse bait and switch spouses? Why do they not show up here and tell their stories? Because I've read everything, on many different message boards over the years.

I still maintain young engaged couples are clueless of what they are committing themselves to, and they can't even project themselves into the future...too ignorant and naive.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Having waited, you are in the minority.


Trust me, I'm well aware of that. But it needed to be clarified that no, not "all" couples have more sex pre-maritally. 



Faithful Wife said:


> Again, unless someone specifically admitted to upping the sex during engagement just to trap someone...I wouldn't assume they did.
> 
> I have read thousands of stories and have never come across anyone saying "oh yeah, I knew I wasn't into sex but I was pretending just so I could snare a mate".
> 
> ...


A bait-n-switcher being let off the hook because they didn't consciously say to themselves "I'm going to bait and switch her/him" seems about as likely as letting an abuser off the hook because they didn't say "I was abused by my father so now I'm planning to perpetuate that abuse on my wife". 

Doesn't really happen that way, and few things are that clear cut. Plenty of people are WELL aware that they're having more sex before marriage because it's the best way to keep a partner. They just don't think dropping the sex post-matrimony is a big deal. Once the ring is slipped on the comfortability, and safety, settle in and they very quickly let the sex go.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I still maintain young engaged couples are clueless of what they are committing themselves to, and they can't even project themselves into the future...too ignorant and naive.


I do have to agree that talking about these things before marriage doesn't mean that much once you are in the thick of it. I'm sure it's not that different than discussing kids before you have them. A lot of things I thought and said changed after I actually had kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Interesting.

Well that would mean that the whole idea of premarital counseling is pretty much a huge racket and scam. 

And as someone who built an extremely strong foundation for marriage with my then girlfriend, I can attest that this approach sure has led to an incredibly beautiful marriage for my wife and me.

But hey, maybe you guys are right. Maybe everyone else is too young, dumb, and stupid to benefit from starting a habit of frank honesty and forthright fullness before marriage. Best to charge in and do the heavy lifting AFTER marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Doesn't really happen that way, and few things are that clear cut. Plenty of people are WELL aware that they're having more sex before marriage because it's the best way to keep a partner. They just don't think dropping the sex post-matrimony is a big deal. Once the ring is slipped on the comfortability, and safety, settle in and they very quickly let the sex go."

So without their admitting it, how do you know that they are WELL aware? Especially when typically, you are talking about very young people who are naive?

People come here and other places and admit terrible things they have done...including affairs, sex addictions, keeping ex spouses from seeing their kids....yet NEVER once anyone will admit to pulling a bait and switch? To me this is absurd, and the only plausible explanation is that they did NOT know.

Also I've been friends with dozens of women of various ages over the past 25 years. I talk to all of my friends about their sex lives intimately. Yet not one of them ever saying they did a sexual bait and switch?

I don't see how taking the feelings of the let down HD spouse as "fact" that their LD spouse pulled a bait and switch is fair.

I think that if people were doing this, especially frequently like you are suggesting, then somewhere, someone would have confessed it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"Maybe everyone else is too young, dumb, and stupid to benefit from starting a habit of frank honesty and forthright fullness before marriage."


Maybe you would have had a good, strong, healthy marriage even without the pre-martial counseling.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Maybe you would have had a good, strong, healthy marriage even without the pre-martial counseling.



We didn't go to premarital counseling.

I was in a relationship for a very long time, and we were best friends before we got together for six years prior to that. We had a very introspective, honest, and frank conversations about _everything_, even when it was painful, and uncomfortable. We also were very, very different people. We had a lot of issues to work through before we crossed that threshold. 

I can guarantee you that we are what we are because of who were were, and how we conducted our relationship, _before_ we were married.

We both know several young, dumb, talked-about-little couples who just got married and hoped for the best.

All of them are in trouble. Every last one is looking our way and going "what's your secret".


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ok well your last message implied that pre-marital counseling was the "reason" for your good marriage (read it again).

In my marriage, I also know that part of the reason we are so happy now is that we spent 5 years getting to know each other and working out our problems before we got married...just to make sure it would last. It seems our plan has worked. Yay!

But this is our second marriage.

I know that when I was married the first time, I would have paid only lip service to a pre-marriage counselor. I would not have believed that my marriage could have ever become sexless. I would not have believed ANYTHING that did actually occur, if someone would have told me before hand.

I'm not saying people shouldn't do it.

I'm just doubting that young, naive couples have any clue how much can change after marriage.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok well your last message implied that pre-marital counseling was the "reason" for your good marriage (read it again).


Nope, I was responding to Kermitty's assertion that talking "doesn't mean that much". They were referencing all marriages, not just my own, and I responded by mentioning the most typical "talky" platform for couples, which is premarital counseling.

I definitely don't expect all couples to do what my wife and I did. We invested a lot of time into one another. We were in one relationship or another, as either best friends, or romantically together, for a combined 14 years before we wed (and we were still in our 20's when we did). That's not typical, but premarital counseling is the next best step if you didn't have all that time, and all that work.



Faithful Wife said:


> In my marriage, I also know that part of the reason we are so happy now is that we spent 5 years getting to know each other and working out our problems before we got married...just to make sure it would last. It seems our plan has worked. Yay!


Love reading that...




Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not saying people shouldn't do it.
> 
> I'm just doubting that young, naive couples have any clue how much can change after marriage.


Which I understand, and agree with. A lot of it won't sink in. Nobody can truly prepare you for marriage. It's a whole different beast.

But it does help A LOT, when the issues inevitably arise, to have a history and a habit developed of slipping into that place of openness, and frankness. I'm not advocating all of this as a way of suggesting you can truly prepare of marriage by talking a lot. No, of course not.

But what you can do, and what needs to be encouraged more, is getting couples in a habit of being open, honest, and frank so that when issues do arise it'll easier for them to go "OK, wait a minute, what's going on?". It can make a world of difference.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Also just to note....I would guess that waiting to get married for at least 5 - 6 years may actually be what the "secret" was in your marriage AND mine.

So instead of pre-marital counseling, I would be much more willing to bet that having a looooong engagement might prevent divorce. Because it gives you a chance to really see things in a new light, AND it gives you a chance to back out before marriage if you can see it isn't going to work.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Yes Jaquen...I'm all for radical honesty in marriage. And giving young engaged people tools for being able to do that. But...again...if they still end up married within a year....they have NO idea what REAL marriage problems are. 

But yes....try to get them to understand. TRY. At least try. Always.

(Even though I did try and my kid is already headed toward a sexless marriage....)


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also just to note....I would guess that waiting to get married for at least 5 - 6 years may actually be what the "secret" was in your marriage AND mine.
> 
> So instead of pre-marital counseling, I would be much more willing to bet that having a looooong engagement might prevent divorce. Because it gives you a chance to really see things in a new light, AND it gives you a chance to back out before marriage if you can see it isn't going to work.


Yes (well for us it was more a long relationship than a long engagement)! 

Now how do we get the word out? LOL!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I know...how? How do we convince young in love Romeo and Juliet that they are at risk for divorce if they follow their love down the aisle before gaining some maturity and understanding? Some of them will just run away rather than listen to us.

sigh....


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Holland said:


> that is incredibly offensive and unfair, walk a mile before saying those of us that have had such are hard time are dumb. I am not a stupid woman, I made mistakes yes and have taken ownership of them.


I was being facetious Holland.

Obviously every single thing I've ever written on TAM in regards to this topic, up to and including this very thread, points to the fact that I do not believe this.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Well that would mean that the whole idea of premarital counseling is pretty much a huge racket and scam.
> 
> ...


Pre marital counseling, I assume, is a lot more thorough and I'm not implying it isn't a good thing. I'm all for talking out as much as you can before getting married. I just don't think it guarantees anything. Nothing my husband and I could have talked about would have prepared us for the breakdown of our marriage in all aspects.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Kermitty said:


> Pre marital counseling, I assume, is a lot more thorough and I'm not implying it isn't a good thing. I'm all for talking out as much as you can before getting married. I just don't think it guarantees anything. Nothing my husband and I could have talked about would have prepared us for the breakdown of our marriage in all aspects.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing is guaranteed.

And sadly I think a lot of premarital counseling, especially the church based kind, is woefully inadequate. It's an excellent tool when used right, and used thoroughly. Not a guarantee of anything, but when used right, it's a nice tool to have.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Also just to note....I would guess that waiting to get married for at least 5 - 6 years may actually be what the "secret" was in your marriage AND mine.
> 
> So instead of pre-marital counseling, I would be much more willing to bet that *having a looooong engagement might prevent divorce*. Because it gives you a chance to really see things in a new light, AND it gives you a chance to back out before marriage if you can see it isn't going to work.


Didn't work for me. 

Well, we're not divorced. But, marriage has been hell.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Did you see red flags during your engagement, but ignore them and get married anyway?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Nothing is guaranteed.
> 
> And sadly I think a lot of premarital counseling, especially the church based kind, is woefully inadequate. It's an excellent tool when used right, and used thoroughly. Not a guarantee of anything, but when used right, it's a nice tool to have.


Agreed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you see red flags during your engagement, but ignore them and get married anyway?


What sort of red flags?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, I don't know your story, so I don't know what your issues are.

But if sex is an issue, as an example, maybe there were signs during the engagement about this. Maybe you were already not getting enough sex and it just got worse. But you ignored them and married her anyway. THOSE red flags.

I'm not saying you did, I was just asking.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, I don't know your story, so I don't know what your issues are.
> 
> But if sex is an issue, as an example, maybe there were signs during the engagement about this. Maybe you were already not getting enough sex and it just got worse. But you ignored them and married her anyway. THOSE red flags.
> 
> I'm not saying you did, I was just asking.



Sex is an issue, and it has been a very powerful one that has been and is difficult to cope with. But, she was fairly generous with it before marriage, and even after marriage but before kids.

The red flags I did see, but forged ahead regardless (not willing to say "ignored", I never ignore), were that happiness and contentment were not easy for her, and that she showed resistance to having the courage to fix that about herself.

To be clear, she's not the only one that brought challenges into the relationship.

My point is: Sure, some folks rush into things and don't give themselves time to get to know each other really well. And, sure, knowing more is always better than not knowing. But, not everything is knowable. And, even when you have concerns about the future together, it can seem forging ahead is still the best choice and that happiness is just around the corner. And, no matter what one knows or hopes, people and circumstances can change, and almost certainly will. Nothing about this is easy.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I have a friend who dated her ex for ten years. After having their baby, things really got bad. In retrospect she can see there were signs but at the time it was hard to tell there would be issues. They got divorced after being married five years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Sex is an issue, and it has been a very powerful one that has been and is difficult to cope with. But, she was fairly generous with it before marriage, and even after marriage but before kids.
> 
> The red flags I did see, but forged ahead regardless (not willing to say "ignored", I never ignore), were that happiness and contentment were not easy for her, and that she showed resistance to having the courage to fix that about herself.
> 
> ...


But that's an issue in and of itself worth exploring; why do people see major red flags and still proceed forward anyway? It's so common, the "things will change after marriage" thought pattern. Yet why? Interesting question to answer.

Also being together for a long time before marriage unfortunately doesn't mean you automatically know a person really well. An old friend of my wife's got together with his girlfriend in 1997, and they wed in 2006. They went to premarital counseling months before the wedding and he came back regaling my wife with shock, and surprise, about all the things they'd learned about each other during the sessions. Turns out that rudimentary discussions, like revealing your family's history of divorce, or being aware of each other's long term financial goals, were things they never even thought to ask each other. It was amazing to us. But in time I have discovered that a lot of people, even in long running relationships, still cover very little ground when it comes to delving into the deeper stuff.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

In my experience, you are constantly told while dating that no one is perfect. So as the pressure mounts to get married and have babies, you start to pick and choose which issues will be deal breakers and which won't. Turns out I was wrong on some of those. I don't know if that's what most people do or just me though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

"But that's an issue in and of itself worth exploring; why do people see major red flags and still proceed forward anyway? It's so common, the "things will change after marriage" thought pattern. Yet why? Interesting question to answer."

My ex-h and I both did this (my first marriage, his second). We saw the flags, we had grave concerns, we got married anyway...it was a long and sad and painful marriage that ended in divorce. Why did we do this? I really have no clue. I mean I can try to say it was because I was very young when we met and I didn't have the wisdom necessary to logic through the situation.

Divorce LITERALLY never occurred to me, at the time. Even though I am the poster child of divorce, I never thought about it as applying to my own marriage. I never thought "what will we do about x, y, and z when it comes up" or "how will we work through a major crisis". Never had the understanding that THESE are the things that cause divorce. 

The people in my life who had been divorced, to me all seemed like normal, loving people, but many had mental issues that were undealt with (this was the 70's ya'll, they didn't have good meds back then and people who had anxiety and depression frequently had no idea how their lives were being altered by their mental states). So to me it just looked like "yes it is obvious why A had to divorce B, based on how I can see for myself that B is acting dangerously coo coo"). IOW, I felt that divorces happened when they NEEDED to. I didn't have the sense that divorces happened between people who might be able to actually work through issues but just didn't get the memo about it.

That is who I ended up being. The married person whose marriage issues could have possibly been addressed, if only my ex-h and I had somehow found our way to those people, ideas or books that could have helped us.


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## eyuop (Apr 7, 2013)

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Absolutely not. It would have irritated me, and I would have been aggravated that he was behaving like a silly little boy. It would not have turned me on at all.


That's why what I said was mostly sarcasm. I only wish something like this would work, since it is at least SOMETHING to do to maybe solve the problem. Sarcasic venting is one of my many talents, and gets me in trouble sometimes .

However, I have heard of situations where a husband is getting noticed by other women and it does have a positive affect on the wife. So there is some truth to it if it happens naturally (and not like I sarcastically posted).


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