# A warning



## Rookie4

Back when I first discovered my ex wife's affair. I visited a lot of forums to learn more about what was happening. One of those I visited was "Chat cheaters". It no longer exists. Why? Because the moderators allowed the BS's to insult and and vilify all WS's and anybody else who disagreed with them. So, eventually the forum died because it became just a pity party for BS's and everybody told the same stories over and over again, and nobody learned anything. TAM is in great danger of becoming the same thing. I would like to ask that there be specific forums for WS's and those actually wanting to learn to be able to do so without being mobbed by a lot of haters.


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## MattMatt

You make an interesting and valid point.

Might be best for us to step away from posts or threads that trigger us?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

MattMatt said:


> You make an interesting and valid point.
> 
> *Might be best for us to step away from posts or threads that trigger us?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Agreed..TAM is fine the way it is...it is up to the individual to step away from the posts that trigger them and if they can't behave well that is what the mods are for...no changes necessary


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## The Middleman

But isn't it fair to call cheaters out when they believe they had a valid reason to have sex with someone other than their spouse, even though they admitted they were wrong? Also, isn't it valid to point out that they haven't paid for their crime, especially when they haven't?


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## NextTimeAround

I'd like to understand the mindset of a cheater or of the person that they're cheating with so I am open to trying anything that might get them to open up.

At the same time, there has to be some representation that their actions are not being condoned by this board.

What to do?


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## MattMatt

There's a difference between being forceful and being bloody rude. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

The Middleman said:


> But isn't it fair to call cheaters out when they believe they had a valid reason to have sex with someone other than their spouse, even though they admitted they were wrong? Also, isn't it valid to point out that they haven't paid for their crime, especially when they haven't?


Agreed. There have been a couple of threads in CWI that have purported to support the WS, and it tended to devolve into a blame game. The only way Rookie could get what he wants-a "safe haven" for WS- is if BS were not permitted to post. I for one would never support that. WS aught to be called out on their crap the SAME way BS who have no boundaries in a relationship currently are.


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## NoChoice

Personally I believe it to be most prudent to respond with unacceptable tolerance. What I mean is that we should post in such a way that the OP realizes that we understand their pain but that the ultimate objective is to relieve said pain and inkeeping with that objective we should target our advice towards constructive ways in which to proceed and away from character attacks on the WS which are neither beneficial nor necessary and serve no real purpose. I have always found the "name calling" to be of little use to the OP especially if there was any thought of R on their part. Having said that, I do feel that pointing out factual character issues to an OP regarding their SO can be helpful if they cannot see it themselves but the line should be maintained between constructive and destructive. My two cents worth.


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## eastsouth2000

you can't have an actively cheating wayward spouse posting.

specially not in a recovery forum.


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## snerg

Rookie4 said:


> Back when I first discovered my ex wife's affair. I visited a lot of forums to learn more about what was happening. One of those I visited was "Chat cheaters". It no longer exists. Why? Because the moderators allowed the BS's to insult and and vilify all WS's and anybody else who disagreed with them. So, eventually the forum died because it became just a pity party for BS's and everybody told the same stories over and over again, and nobody learned anything. TAM is in great danger of becoming the same thing. I would like to ask that there be specific forums for WS's and those actually wanting to learn to be able to do so without being mobbed by a lot of haters.


this is an open internet forum.

No matter what you do, you will always have someone post concepts/ideas contrary to the wishes of others.

An item to contend with is the pain. 
Affairs are tactical nukes dropped from orbit on a marriage. The pain caused can be emotional, physical, or both. Affairs alter how people act from then on. Affairs destroy trust. Affairs destroy unfettered love. Affairs destroy families.

Another item to contend with is the reality of life.
Affairs point out that marriages were a lie. Affairs point out that the cheater (the person you "love") can be just as cruel and heartless as a serial killer. Affairs make one judge every choice they have ever made (i.e. if I was so wrong about my cheating spouse, WTH else was I wrong about). Affairs can cause one to loose faith in people. Affairs can cause unending hatred. 


I think it's a bit unrealistic to get an area free of vitriol with something that deals with this much absolute pain.

There are many on here that post that will help warn or openly knock someone who is lashing out and being over the top.

Having people actively moderating will keep sections clear.


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## Marduk

Rookie4 said:


> Back when I first discovered my ex wife's affair. I visited a lot of forums to learn more about what was happening. One of those I visited was "Chat cheaters". It no longer exists. Why? Because the moderators allowed the BS's to insult and and vilify all WS's and anybody else who disagreed with them. So, eventually the forum died because it became just a pity party for BS's and everybody told the same stories over and over again, and nobody learned anything. TAM is in great danger of becoming the same thing. I would like to ask that there be specific forums for WS's and those actually wanting to learn to be able to do so without being mobbed by a lot of haters.


I find that the waywards who own up and take accountability for their actions get far less mistreatment than those that come here wanting a magic wand to make it all go away.

That being said, it still triggers a lot of people, and those folks should probably keep it to themselves.


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## Heatherknows

NextTimeAround said:


> I'd like to understand the mindset of a cheater or of the person that they're cheating with so I am open to trying anything that might get them to open up.
> 
> At the same time, there has to be some representation that their actions are not being condoned by this board.
> 
> What to do?


I never cheated on my husband in real life but I did have inappropriate chats with a handful of men online. My husband is aware of this past behavior and we are working on making our marriage stronger. It's been several months since I last had one of these conversations and I'm proud of my progress.


I can tell you what was in my mindset:

My marriage was in a bad place and it looked like divorce was going to happen. I was emotionally freaked out and desperate for something to make me feel better. Having romantic/sexual conversations made me feel less depressed and excited. It was the best "drug" I ever tried so I kept doing it. Then the drug got messed up and I crashed. 

That's pretty much it.


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## BetrayedDad

Pluto2 said:


> The only way Rookie could get what he wants-a "safe haven" for WS.


Basically. 

Maybe the good people at TAM could start a new website just for him called...

Talk About Cheating (TAC)


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## Dude007

I hate to say that some people cheat for the simple reasons Heather hit on. Boredom, Depression, stress of life and family. Its an escape and having anyone pursue you when you have been married a decade plus is very enticing. It just seems like an eternity since someone really wanted you. Is that worth blowing up your marriage and life sky high? NO, but it happens A LOT as FEELINGS overcome LOGIC. The damage to the WS is unimaginable, they are most likely forever broken to some extent. Its just to messy what goes on in their mind.


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## Rookie4

MattMatt said:


> You make an interesting and valid point.
> 
> Might be best for us to step away from posts or threads that trigger us?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that if more posters were like you,Matt, the warning wouldn't be necessary. You have almost always treated WS'S with respect.


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## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed..TAM is fine the way it is...it is up to the individual to step away from the posts that trigger them and if they can't behave well that is what the mods are for...no changes necessary


I would agree if posters exhibited a level of restraint. Unfortunately this rarely happens. One WS will come here and post a thread, then the mob takes over, and makes post after post of rude and offensive comments, until the WS leaves. How does this help anybody?


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## Rookie4

NextTimeAround said:


> I'd like to understand the mindset of a cheater or of the person that they're cheating with so I am open to trying anything that might get them to open up.
> 
> At the same time, there has to be some representation that their actions are not being condoned by this board.
> 
> What to do?


If you identify yourself as a BS or WS, you can ask your questions without making judgements. I think that most everybody agrees that cheating is not a good thing, so why does it need for 20 people to come onto a thread , just to condemn the WS?


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## Rookie4

NoChoice said:


> Personally I believe it to be most prudent to respond with unacceptable tolerance. What I mean is that we should post in such a way that the OP realizes that we understand their pain but that the ultimate objective is to relieve said pain and inkeeping with that objective we should target our advice towards constructive ways in which to proceed and away from character attacks on the WS which are neither beneficial nor necessary and serve no real purpose. I have always found the "name calling" to be of little use to the OP especially if there was any thought of R on their part. Having said that, I do feel that pointing out factual character issues to an OP regarding their SO can be helpful if they cannot see it themselves but the line should be maintained between constructive and destructive. My two cents worth.


Of course, being "constructive" is the key point.


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## Dude007

Rookie4 said:


> I think that if more posters were like you,Matt, the warning wouldn't be necessary. You have almost always treated WS'S with respect.


I love all people, my heart goes out to most WS similar to BS because you can SEE the F'dupness in their eyes. At its basic core, life is all about relationships and trying to do no harm. I know people make huge mistakes, I've seen it my entire life. I don't judge but try and be the best I can be myself. I think the entity of marriage itself is frought with risks and too high expectations on all parties involved. It seems to be a dying institution anyway so its interesting talking about it with you guys! DUDE


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## Rookie4

snerg said:


> this is an open internet forum.
> 
> No matter what you do, you will always have someone post concepts/ideas contrary to the wishes of others.
> 
> An item to contend with is the pain.
> Affairs are tactical nukes dropped from orbit on a marriage. The pain caused can be emotional, physical, or both. Affairs alter how people act from then on. Affairs destroy trust. Affairs destroy unfettered love. Affairs destroy families.
> 
> Another item to contend with is the reality of life.
> Affairs point out that marriages were a lie. Affairs point out that the cheater (the person you "love") can be just as cruel and heartless as a serial killer. Affairs make one judge every choice they have ever made (i.e. if I was so wrong about my cheating spouse, WTH else was I wrong about). Affairs can cause one to loose faith in people. Affairs can cause unending hatred.
> 
> 
> I think it's a bit unrealistic to get an area free of vitriol with something that deals with this much absolute pain.
> 
> There are many on here that post that will help warn or openly knock someone who is lashing out and being over the top.
> 
> Having people actively moderating will keep sections clear.


On the contrary, there are forums where WS's can post and the rules against offensive behavior are vigorously enforced.


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## Rookie4

eastsouth2000 said:


> you can't have an actively cheating wayward spouse posting.
> 
> specially not in a recovery forum.


Why not? Wouldn't it be a good thing , if an affair could be stopped by positive and helpful advice? Like AA for cheaters.


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## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> I would agree if posters exhibited a level of restraint. Unfortunately this rarely happens. One WS will come here and post a thread, then the mob takes over, and makes post after post of rude and offensive comments, until the WS leaves. How does this help anybody?


I've seen the site you speak of and i'm not impressed...plus it makes sense that the site would have such a forum that site was founded by a wife who cheated on her H...


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## Rookie4

BetrayedDad said:


> Basically.
> 
> Maybe the good people at TAM could start a new website just for him called...
> 
> Talk About Cheating (TAC)


This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about , rude and offensive, with no point other than to be rude and offensive. Thanks BetrayedDad for being yourself. 
Imagine being a WS who comes here for help, and instead, gets dozens of such posts, and even worse. When EI and Tears came here, they both would get hundreds of such posts. No positive advice, just condemnation and insults.


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## Dude007

Let's name the new site, noscarletletter.com
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've seen the site you speak of and i'm not impressed...plus it makes sense that the site would have such a forum that site was founded by a wife who cheated on her H...


Actually, I was thinking of two, in particular. In the one you are thinking about, I think that some of their ideas are good. They have several forums, but only one for WS's and even there the poster can allow comments or not. The ones who DON'T allow comments you can avoid, but those that DO allow comments are usually the ones looking for constructive help.
In the other forum, there is no forum specifically for cheaters, but , they rigorously enforce the rules of civility and respect.


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## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, I was thinking of two, in particular. In the one you are thinking about, I think that some of their ideas are good. They have several forums, but only one for WS's and even there the poster can allow comments or not. The ones who DON'T allow comments you can avoid, but those that DO allow comments are usually the ones looking for constructive help.
> In the other forum, there is no forum specifically for cheaters, but , they rigorously enforce the rules of civility and respect.


TAM also allows you to create private groups correct? No need to change forum wide policies when private groups are available...

TAM is far superior to the other site including design...that sites design is awful...


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## ConanHub

Rookie4 said:


> If you identify yourself as a BS or WS, you can ask your questions without making judgements. I think that most everybody agrees that cheating is not a good thing, so why does it need for 20 people to come onto a thread , just to condemn the WS?


Unfortunately, there are a great number of cheaters that think their affair wasn't a bad thing or at least parts of it and are haughty, prideful and ultimately unaware of how debased and damaged they have become and unwilling to accept any responsibility or even admit they are doing something pretty terrible.

If you don't even realize something you are doing is disgusting, you will keep doing it or similarly destructive behaviors.

I agree in general with you with the caveat that many WSs are more offended by the truth of their state than their own vile behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Truthseeker1

ConanHub said:


> Unfortunately, there are a great number of cheaters that think their affair wasn't a bad thing or at least parts of it and are haughty, prideful and ultimately unaware of how debased and damaged they have become and unwilling to accept any responsibility or even admit they are doing something pretty terrible.
> 
> If you don't even realize something you are doing is disgusting, you will keep doing it or similarly destructive behaviors.
> 
> *I agree in general with you with the caveat that many WSs are more offended by the truth of their state than their own vile behavior.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree: WSs and a lot of BSs don't like to be challenged..the other site actually discourages challenges..that serves no purpose at all...


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## EleGirl

I think that a lot of WS who could be helped are driven off TAM because attacks are piled on page after page. 

When a WS comes here we have a chance to change their mindset and in turn help their BS. If the WS is helped to see that they have to end the affair and that there things that they have to do to repair the marriage and/or move on, we'd be doing a good service to the WS & BS. Instead the name calling, attacks.

A poster can take a less attacking approach and thus not run the WS away.. and by doing so get the person who actually talk and change their mind set.

If a person is attacked, it usually just solidifies their position.. it's called self defense.

I've read posts from moderators in the past saying that WS's are not supposed to be attacked and should be treated in respect on TAM. I hardly ever see this happen however.


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## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> I think that a lot of WS who could be helped are driven off TAM because attacks are piled on page after page.
> 
> When a WS comes here we have a chance to change their mindset and in turn help their BS. If the WS is helped to see that they have to end the affair and that there things that they have to do to repair the marriage and/or move on, we'd be doing a good service to the WS & BS. Instead the name calling, attacks.
> 
> *A poster can take a less attacking approach and thus not run the WS away.. and by doing so get the person who actually talk and change their mind set.*
> 
> If a person is attacked, it usually just solidifies their position.. it's called self defense.
> 
> *I've read posts from moderators in the past saying that WS's are not supposed to be attacked and should be treated in respect on TAM.* I hardly ever see this happen however.


Agreed...however i don't think they need a special space.....


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## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> TAM also allows you to create private groups correct? No need to change forum wide policies when private groups are available...
> 
> TAM is far superior to the other site including design...that sites design is awful...


Oh, I admit they have tons of problems, that's why I don't go there. What I want is to improve TAM, and I think that using other forum's good points, can be helpful to improving ours.


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## CH

There were only a few WS that were genuine in their remorse that I can recall. The rest were here to look for someone to say it was ok that they cheated and the BS was the root cause of why they cheated.

You can usually pick them out when all they talk about is themselves and nobody else and how the world is stacked against them.

But then again, there were 2 or 3 WS's that were pretty good at making it seem like they wanted to change and gave some Oscar winning posts just to find out they were so full of themselves and were just looking for more attention to fulfill their lives.

Sometimes you gotta throw some 2x4's and at times nuke the crap out of some WS's to make them see it's not all about them. Most will never get it and if they leave that's fine cuz they will never learn that they can fix their own problems and it's not always someone or something on the outside making the bad choices for them.

If it starts becoming personal and bordering on harassment then we've got a problem. Overall, I think I've only seen a couple of incidents of this happening and most of those people were given warnings and only a couple of posters were perma banned.

Sometimes a WS comes in and it triggers a certain poster or group of posters and they make it personal. We're human it happens. If it happens only once or twice, warning, temp ban should work. If they're always disruptive and looking to cause trouble then perma ban.


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## EleGirl

Rookie4 said:


> Oh, I admit they have tons of problems, that's why I don't go there. What I want is to improve TAM, and I think that using other forum's good points, can be helpful to improving ours.


While I'm not sure that WS need a separate forum, I can also see the advantage of having one. it would be a "safer" place. The one thing that would need to be enforced, along with enforcing no attacking, is that it could not be a place where a WS could hang out and basically facilitate an affair.

I do not think that a private social group would work well because most people do not even seem to know that they exist. So a new WS would not know that the option was available.


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## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agreed...however i don't think they need a special space.....


Perhaps not a special place. That is just an idea I threw out to get some feedback. Perhaps Elegirl is on the right track, stronger enforcement of the rules against rude and offensive posts and maybe a new rule against "piling on" and browbeating.


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## Pluto2

Dude007 said:


> I hate to say that some people cheat for the simple reasons Heather hit on. Boredom, Depression, stress of life and family. Its an escape and having anyone pursue you when you have been married a decade plus is very enticing. It just seems like an eternity since someone really wanted you. Is that worth blowing up your marriage and life sky high? NO, but it happens A LOT as FEELINGS overcome LOGIC. The damage to the WS is unimaginable, they are most likely forever broken to some extent. Its just to messy what goes on in their mind.


You might be correct.

But lots of people suffer with boredom, depression, stress of life, neglect etc. from lots of different sources. That's nothing unique to WS, other than the manner in which they chose to handle it. Kind of suggests WS don't need a special place.


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## Rookie4

EleGirl said:


> While I'm not sure that WS need a separate forum, I can also see the advantage of having one. it would be a "safer" place. The one thing that would need to be enforced, along with enforcing no attacking, is that it could not be a place where a WS could hang out and basically facilitate an affair.
> 
> I do not think that a private social group would work well because most people do not even seem to know that they exist. So a new WS would not know that the option was available.


There is already a pretty infamous website devoted to facilitating affairs.:grin2:


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## CH

Rookie4 said:


> There is already a pretty infamous website devoted to facilitating affairs.:grin2:


Alot of them are moving to another site or morel like an app since the fallout. And I'm not going to give any names or websites out to promote them.


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## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> While I'm not sure that WS need a separate forum, I can also see the advantage of having one. it would be a "safer" place. The one thing that would need to be enforced, along with enforcing no attacking, is that it could not be a place where a WS could hang out and basically facilitate an affair.
> 
> I do not think that a private social group would work well because most people do not even seem to know that they exist. So a new WS would not know that the option was available.


I've seen the separate forum in action and I'm not a fan...TAM is fine the way it is....it allows a free exchange of ideas - no "stop signs" - can the mods enforce more civil behavior sure- but that line is a blurry one - but I think that is as far as it needs to go..otherwise you get what the other site has and that is a bunch of stop signs and warnings..not the free exchange of ideas...


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## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've seen the separate forum in action and I'm not a fan...TAM is fine the way it is....it allows a free exchange of ideas - no "stop signs" - can the mods enforce more civil behavior sure- but that line is a blurry one - but I think that is as far as it needs to go..otherwise you get what the other site has and that is a bunch of stop signs and warnings..not the free exchange of ideas...


A free exchange of ideas isn't the same thing as a free pass to insult.


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## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> A free exchange of ideas isn't the same thing as a free pass to insult.


Agreed...*that is what the mods are for.*.my argument is against a "special place for waywards"..that would change the character of TAM -- which is an excellent site for more than just infidelity...the other site sucks...and it allows lots of stuff to go unchallenged that would have not gone unchallenged here...TAM has a much broader range of opinions..I value that about this place...


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## Another Planet

Are we suppose to coddle WS's? 
If they feel bad because they hear it like it is that is a problem?


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## BetrayedDad

ConanHub said:


> I agree in general with you with the caveat that many WSs are more offended by the truth of their state than their own vile behavior.


TRUTH.

It's not just WS's, though it's far easier to see they are misguided when then try to justify their bad behavior. Some BS's act the same exact way when the truth is pointed out to them. Some WS and BS come to this website under the guise of "looking for advice" when what they REALLY want is validation for poor decision making.


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## Dyokemm

Rookie4 said:


> Why not? Wouldn't it be a good thing , if an affair could be stopped by positive and helpful advice? Like AA for cheaters.


Your idea is not bad Rookie.....but I think the challenge to keep such a forum constructive goes beyond just eliminating the spiteful and angry posts by BS.

Loveshack sort of has a format like this where they have a separate forum for active cheaters.

But often very unrepentant cheaters will post in their infidelity section, and when the BS's offer ANY type of 2x4, even ones that are not overly rude or insulting, you will get another type of mob behavior....

Namely the WS's and active cheaters coming in to the threads and actually encouraging wayward behavior and criticizing/insulting BS's and their opinions.

And you can see it happen in those threads....unrepentant OP WS's will latch on to any posters who excuse or validate their continuing sh*tty behavior.

It really is a nightmare over there if you are looking for real solutions for M's wrecked by infidelity....particularly in the WS postings....due to the gang of actively cheating OM's and OW's and unrepentant WW's and WH's that spill out of their forum into the infidelity section.

The only true benefit to LS (and a few responders on this thread have said they are interested) is a clear and unadulterated view into the mindset of an active and/or unrepentant cheater.


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## VeryHurt

Rookie4 said:


> This is exactly the kind of post I'm talking about , rude and offensive, with no point other than to be rude and offensive. Thanks BetrayedDad for being yourself.
> Imagine being a WS who comes here for help, and instead, gets dozens of such posts, and even worse. When EI and Tears came here, they both would get hundreds of such posts. No positive advice, just condemnation and insults.


R4 ~
I am curious. 
What kind of advice or help would you be looking for?
Thank you ~
VH


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## Truthseeker1

Dyokemm said:


> Your idea is not bad Rookie.....but I think the challenge to keep such a forum constructive goes beyond just eliminating the spiteful and angry posts by BS.
> 
> Loveshack sort of has a format like this where they have a separate forum for active cheaters.
> 
> But often very unrepentant cheaters will post in their infidelity section, and when the BS's offer ANY type of 2x4, even ones that are not overly rude or insulting, you will get another type of mob behavior....
> 
> Namely the WS's and active cheaters coming in to the threads and actually encouraging wayward behavior and criticizing/insulting BS's and their opinions.
> 
> And you can see it happen in those threads....unrepentant OP WS's will latch on to any posters who excuse or validate their continuing sh*tty behavior.
> 
> It really is a nightmare over there if you are looking for real solutions for M's wrecked by infidelity....particularly in the WS postings....due to the gang of actively cheating OM's and OW's and unrepentant WW's and WH's that spill out of their forum into the infidelity section.
> 
> The only true benefit to LS (and a few responders on this thread have said they are interested) is a clear and unadulterated view into the mindset of an active and/or unrepentant cheater.


I avoid LS.....the little I've seen of it is unimpressive as well...why any forum would host an active cheaters and OM/OW section is beyond me..


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## EleGirl

Truthseeker1 said:


> I've seen the separate forum in action and I'm not a fan...TAM is fine the way it is....it allows a free exchange of ideas - no "stop signs" - can the mods enforce more civil behavior sure- but that line is a blurry one - but I think that is as far as it needs to go..otherwise you get what the other site has and that is a bunch of stop signs and warnings..not the free exchange of ideas...


It's hard to enforce because as you say the line is blurry. I know I've deleted some where a poster starts calling the OP names. Not cool at all. It takes quite a bit of time to go through threads and read them just to address name calling, etc.


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## EleGirl

Another Planet said:


> Are we suppose to coddle WS's?
> If they feel bad because they hear it like it is that is a problem?


No one is suggesting coddling WS.... but doing things like calling them slvt, [email protected], cumbuckets, etc is uncalled for. And yes it happens often.

Another thing that happens is that 20 or so posters come on and every one rips the OP a new one. No one actually offers anything to help move them to the right place. They just take the opportunity to say what I suppose they really want to say to their own WS.


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## Dude007

What's the ratio of bs/total users on this site anyway? 75-80 percent
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink

I wish it would happen but it won't. The BS here are stuck in their pain, <-- that's not a judgment, and as a result they attack.

1. Who gets to decide what amount of remorse is appropriate? Hint, not you.
2. Who gets to decide at what level of awareness a ws must demonstrate in order to be treated with a modicum of respect. Again, not you.

Take a look at Gridcom's thread to get a taste for what happens when someone dares to say something different from the TAMway. Take a look at Confused's thread for more of the same. 

The trouble is, before you can reach someone to open their eyes you have to stop threatening them. You can't beat their eyes open.

So Rookie you are a rare gem here in CWI. A man who was betrayed but didn't allow that betrayal to define the rest of his life. It's a great idea. Would be nice if decency started now in threads already going.


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## Rookie4

Another Planet said:


> Are we suppose to coddle WS's?
> If they feel bad because they hear it like it is that is a problem?


In the adult world, courtesy and civility are not considered "coddling".


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## Rookie4

Dyokemm said:


> Your idea is not bad Rookie.....but I think the challenge to keep such a forum constructive goes beyond just eliminating the spiteful and angry posts by BS.
> 
> Loveshack sort of has a format like this where they have a separate forum for active cheaters.
> 
> But often very unrepentant cheaters will post in their infidelity section, and when the BS's offer ANY type of 2x4, even ones that are not overly rude or insulting, you will get another type of mob behavior....
> 
> Namely the WS's and active cheaters coming in to the threads and actually encouraging wayward behavior and criticizing/insulting BS's and their opinions.
> 
> And you can see it happen in those threads....unrepentant OP WS's will latch on to any posters who excuse or validate their continuing sh*tty behavior.
> 
> It really is a nightmare over there if you are looking for real solutions for M's wrecked by infidelity....particularly in the WS postings....due to the gang of actively cheating OM's and OW's and unrepentant WW's and WH's that spill out of their forum into the infidelity section.
> 
> The only true benefit to LS (and a few responders on this thread have said they are interested) is a clear and unadulterated view into the mindset of an active and/or unrepentant cheater.


To tell the truth, Dyokemm, I always thought that Loveshack was a dating site, so I never went there much . I will have to look into it.


----------



## Rookie4

VeryHurt said:


> R4 ~
> I am curious.
> What kind of advice or help would you be looking for?
> Thank you ~
> VH


Actually, not much. I have a pretty good handle on things now. But like EI and some others I am always willing to help.:smile2: Particularly about legal or corporate issues. And to show that even when it seems like the end of the world, after an affair. You can overcome it by using your noggin.


----------



## Rookie4

Anon Pink said:


> I wish it would happen but it won't. The BS here are stuck in their pain, <-- that's not a judgment, and as a result they attack.
> 
> 1. Who gets to decide what amount of remorse is appropriate? Hint, not you.
> 2. Who gets to decide at what level of awareness a ws must demonstrate in order to be treated with a modicum of respect. Again, not you.
> 
> Take a look at Gridcom's thread to get a taste for what happens when someone dares to say something different from the TAMway. Take a look at Confused's thread for more of the same.
> 
> The trouble is, before you can reach someone to open their eyes you have to stop threatening them. You can't beat their eyes open.
> 
> So Rookie you are a rare gem here in CWI. A man who was betrayed but didn't allow that betrayal to define the rest of his life. It's a great idea. Would be nice if decency started now in threads already going.


Rare Gem? How come nobody ever called me that when I was in trouble in HS? They used to call me that bad hillbilly.:grin2:


----------



## norajane

A WS who comes here seeking advice on how to heal their relationship with their BS should be able to come here to get that advice, just like everyone else who comes here for advice. If a WS wants to understand how to help their BS heal, the kinds of things they should be doing for their BS, the kinds of things the BS needs from them, and the kinds of things that make things worse would be very helpful to a WS.

But they can't get that advice, because they have to deal with the barrage of insults and crap that get thrown at them before some lone voice breaks through the rabid wolfpack to talk about transparency and freely handing over their passwords, etc. Few stick around that long because they are condemned by so many and advised by so few.

I stay out of CWI for the most part because I can't deal with how the wolfpack gangs up on people who offer a different perspective or try to actually give advice instead of bashing the WS. WS's are far better off going elsewhere for advice on how to heal their marriages than they are coming to TAM.


----------



## BrokenLady

I'm a BS & I found that 'other site' first. One day I wandered onto the OW/OM forum. Most there are separated from the MM & just trying to get their lives back. I expected to be angry but it just made me sad (not ALL posts obviously) & I ended-up talking to a couple of OW. I've actually become 'friends' with one of them. 

It did me good to see things from the other side of things. I'm not saying all BS's will find it a positive experience but I did. Human pain is pain...sometimes just as crippling even when you've brought it upon yourself! 

As a raw BS I don't know a lot but I do know that I don't want to become bitter & I don't want to loose the ability to trust & fully feel again. 

I'm not quite ready to empathize with waywards (that's such an innocent word for such brutality isn't it?) but I hope one day I'll try to understand.


----------



## Truthseeker1

EleGirl said:


> *No one is suggesting coddling WS.... but doing things like calling them slvt, [email protected], cumbuckets, etc is uncalled for. And yes it happens often.*
> 
> Another thing that happens is that 20 or so posters come on and every one rips the OP a new one. No one actually offers anything to help move them to the right place. *They just take the opportunity to say what I suppose they really want to say to their own WS.*


 @EleGirl you are 100% correct - there is no room for that at all...it also detracts from the posters points....and if those nasty things are truly what they want to say to their WS then they should say them to their WS and not some stranger on a message board...but what I've found is a "separate place" can be a breeding ground for unchallenged statements like the following which went unchallenged on another site - *"if your Bs can't forgive your infidelity then they were not the right person for you anyway." *WTF? on TAM that person would have had a lumberyard full of 2x4s come down on their heads - deservedly so...

Civility yes - "separate space" absolutely not it would changed the character of TAM for the worse - the free flow of ideas without stop signs should be maintained...IMO


----------



## Anon Pink

Rookie4 said:


> Rare Gem? How come nobody ever called me that when I was in trouble in HS? They used to call me that bad hillbilly.:grin2:


Okay maybe an uncommon rock.


----------



## Another Planet

Rookie4 said:


> In the adult world, courtesy and civility are not considered "coddling".


In the adult world?! For the most part this is real life with real people with real families. I am not going to support behavior that severely and purposely damages others lives...especially when it involves the wellbeing of children.

In the adult world there are real problems and real repercussions for your actions. Run a pedestrian over with your car because you were texting and see what happens to you...you will rot in prison for vehicular manslaughter...or maybe we should all get a prayer circle and talk about why you were driving on Maple street instead of Pond ave.


----------



## Rookie4

Another Planet said:


> In the adult world?! For the most part this is real life with real people with real families. I am not going to support behavior that severely and purposely damages others lives...especially when it involves the wellbeing of children.
> 
> In the adult world there are real problems and real repercussions for your actions. Run a pedestrian over with your car because you were texting and see what happens to you...you will rot in prison for vehicular manslaughter...or maybe we should all get a prayer circle and talk about why you were driving on Maple street instead of Pond ave.


 So why do you think that being courteous and civil to a WS is coddling? I'm betting that if you are a church goer, your preacher or priest would also advise you to be courteous and civil, as well. You can disagree with a WS, without being insulting and rude.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Don't fall down the rabbit hole AP, the goal posts they are moving.


----------



## Dude007

So why would a bs stay so bitter, wouldn't they move through the grieving cycle to acceptance or are some of them engaging in big pharma and so they can never move to acceptance(resolution)? I mean eventually you have to move on for your own sanity. Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Some do move on some don't.


----------



## Another Planet

Rookie4 said:


> So why do you think that being courteous and civil to a WS is coddling? I'm betting that if you are a church goer, your preacher or priest would also advise you to be courteous and civil, as well. You can disagree with a WS, without being insulting and rude.


If you must put a label on me I am an atheist, no preacher or priest or god advises me.


----------



## MattMatt

eastsouth2000 said:


> you can't have an actively cheating wayward spouse posting.
> 
> specially not in a recovery forum.


Yes, you can.

Because we have had that situation here at TAM.

At least one married couple in that situation reconciled, due to information, ideas and tips that were given to the WS by other members.


----------



## Dude007

Maybe it's a mistake to label ourselves as ws or bs and be anonymous in that respect?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Another Planet

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Don't fall down the rabbit hole AP, the goal posts they are moving.


What rabbit hole?


----------



## tech-novelist

Truthseeker1 said:


> I avoid LS.....the little I've seen of it is unimpressive as well...why any forum would host an active cheaters and OM/OW section is beyond me..


Do they get ads from A$hley Mad or whatever the latest "infidelity resource" is?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Another Planet said:


> What rabbit hole?


> You'll see.


----------



## Dude007

Mattmatt can u ditch the dancing cats? It's triggering me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MattMatt

Pluto2 said:


> Agreed. There have been a couple of threads in CWI that have purported to support the WS, and it tended to devolve into a blame game. The only way Rookie could get what he wants-a "safe haven" for WS- is if BS were not permitted to post. I for one would never support that. WS aught to be called out on their crap the SAME way BS who have no boundaries in a relationship currently are.


Which approach would work?

1) "You are nothing but a &&&&ing wh&&e! If I was your husband I'd beat your A%%!"

or

2) "Have you thought this through? You know you are not only cheating your husband but you are also cheating your children. Have you and your husband looked at counselling? That might be of benefit."


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Dude007 said:


> Maybe it's a mistake to label ourselves as ws or bs and be anonymous in that respect?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People will make assumptions. It's funny because some of the harshest posters I've encountered, have never dealt with any form of infidelity in marriage.


----------



## MattMatt

Dude007 said:


> Mattmatt can u ditch the dancing cats? It's triggering me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What dancing cats? :scratchhead:

I see no dancing cats.:cat:


----------



## Lila

Truthseeker1 said:


> what I've found is a "separate place" can be a breeding ground for unchallenged statements like the following which went unchallenged on another site - *"if your Bs can't forgive your infidelity then they were not the right person for you anyway." *WTF? on TAM that person would have had a lumberyard full of 2x4s come down on their heads - deservedly so...


I don't understand what's so bad with the statement you highlighted above. I mean, if there's no chance for forgiveness shouldn't that couple split up? At that point wouldn't they be bad candidates for reconciliation, I.e not right for each other?


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> So why do you think that being courteous and civil to a WS is coddling? I'm betting that if you are a church goer, your preacher or priest would also advise you to be courteous and civil, as well. You can disagree with a WS, without being insulting and rude.


What I've seen here is that when a thread has been started to "help" WS in general and a BS spouse disagrees with one of the WS, its actually the BS that is called out as being bitter, angry or projecting. BS are not allowed to challenge anything.

However, when a poster comes on here for their individual problems, and makes their posts and their questions about their actual problems rather than a thread for WS's in general, that kind of sniping doesn't seem to happen.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Lila said:


> I don't understand what's so bad with the statement you highlighted above. I mean, if there's no chance for forgiveness shouldn't that couple split up? At that point wouldn't they be bad candidates for reconciliation, I.e not right for each other?


The context it was given in, which i shoud have added, was to cheer up a cheating spouse whose partner could not forgive their infidelity..it was more of a putdown of the betrayed...an an aside the BS cold have been a good match until the WS cheated...


----------



## Truthseeker1

Pluto2 said:


> What I've seen here is that when a thread has been started to "help" WS in general and a BS spouse disagrees with one of the WS, its actually the BS that is called out as being bitter, angry or projecting. BS are not allowed to challenge anything.
> 
> However, when a poster comes on here for their individual problems, and makes their posts and their questions about their actual problems rather than a thread for WS's in general, that kind of sniping doesn't seem to happen.


I've also seen people who question R ganged up on at other sites...even if its a reasonable position...I think each site develops its own character....


----------



## Pluto2

MattMatt said:


> Which approach would work?
> 
> 1) "You are nothing but a &&&&ing wh&&e! If I was your husband I'd beat your A%%!"
> 
> or
> 
> 2) "Have you thought this through? You know you are not only cheating your husband but you are also cheating your children. Have you and your husband looked at counselling? That might be of benefit."


MattMatt, I don't like name calling-and I think you know that.


----------



## MattMatt

Pluto2 said:


> MattMatt, I don't like name calling-and I think you know that.


But... I don't understand why you would think it was aimed at you? :scratchhead:

The trouble is the kind of remark I alluded to happens too often when people mistake another poster's WS for their own WS and they come out with stuff that they wish they'd said years ago, to that certain someone else when it mattered.


----------



## Rookie4

Another Planet said:


> If you must put a label on me I am an atheist, no preacher or priest or god advises me.


I really don't care what you are. I was pointing out that in any kind of a polite society with any kind of positive morality, civility and courtesy are practiced. But you seem to think that it is "coddling" to be polite or respectful to a WS, and I would like to know why you think this way. Being courteous does not imply agreement.


----------



## Rookie4

Dude007 said:


> Mattmatt can u ditch the dancing cats? It's triggering me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have always liked the dancing cats:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> What I've seen here is that when a thread has been started to "help" WS in general and a BS spouse disagrees with one of the WS, its actually the BS that is called out as being bitter, angry or projecting. BS are not allowed to challenge anything.
> 
> However, when a poster comes on here for their individual problems, and makes their posts and their questions about their actual problems rather than a thread for WS's in general, that kind of sniping doesn't seem to happen.


This HAS happened, but very rarely. If this were common, then TAM would be a WS friendly site and BS's would be in the minority. But that is not the case, is it? In most cases, WS's come here and start a thread , then will be crucified, until they leave. THIS scenario is, unfortunately, the most common occurrence. I would guess that we now have a 90-10% (or worse) split , with the BS's in the vast majority. This was not always the case. When I first began to visit this site, WS's were treated better and much more knowledge was gained and given by all posters.


----------



## Rookie4

phillybeffandswiss said:


> People will make assumptions. It's funny because some of the harshest posters I've encountered, have never dealt with any form of infidelity in marriage.


Normally, I would not agree with Philly, but he definitely has a valid point. I sometimes wonder if a sizeable number of posters are not (the guys who live under the bridges) and are only here for some sort of sick entertainment. So they are as nasty as they can be, to add to the drama. The posters who add nothing, but only make short snarky comments.


----------



## MattMatt

Rookie4 said:


> Normally, I would not agree with Philly, but he definitely has a valid point. I sometimes wonder if a sizeable number of posters are not (the guys who live under the bridges) and are only here for some sort of sick entertainment. So they are as nasty as they can be, to add to the drama. The posters who add nothing, but only make short snarky comments.


It is like my mom's bull dog.

As a young dog he was attacked by a large black labrador dog a girl set on him.

The labrador came off worse and I had to get him off the labrador.

But throughout the rest of his life whenever he saw a black labrador my mom's bull dog would attack first.

That's what happens on TAM, sometimes.

Some people mistake some other person's WS for their WS and get their attack in first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoChoice

I feel if we are here to help that the help should be for all who really desire help. It is natural to become frustrated and to lash out at those that do not really want help but are only being antagonistic. However, in the beginning I feel that everyone should be given the opportunity to demonstrate if they are sincerely seeking help or not. As Matt says many here project and understandably so but I believe we could help more BS's if we could talk, rationally and reasonably, to their WS's since they are the true offenders. However, when a WS does come here they are soon discouraged and stop posting. Some truly remorseful ones bear the onslaught, a poster named White Rose comes to mind, but most are not at the place to accept the harsh criticism they receive. I am not saying it is not deserved but it is not helpful at that time. If they are made to see and understand their behavior and face the horrific damage they caused that is far more "effective" than harsh criticism and they will feel much more pain than our criticism could cause. Is not that our objective?


----------



## Pluto2

MattMatt said:


> But... I don't understand why you would think it was aimed at you? :scratchhead:
> 
> The trouble is the kind of remark I alluded to happens too often when people mistake another poster's WS for their own WS and they come out with stuff that they wish they'd said years ago, to that certain someone else when it mattered.


I wasn't mistaking your comment, Matt, actually, you were. I didn't assume you were suggesting that I personally engage in name calling, and that wasn't what I was referencing. My comment was that I don't think that name-calling scenario is beneficial. 

Every poster comes here with their own point of view. Sometimes posters project, sometimes they are in denial. To suggest that one group is entitled to a special place eliminates the discussion and no one benefits.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Pluto2 said:


> I wasn't mistaking your comment, Matt, actually, you were. I didn't assume you were suggesting that I personally engage in name calling, and that wasn't what I was referencing. My comment was that I don't think that name-calling scenario is beneficial.
> 
> Every poster comes here with their own point of view. Sometimes posters project, sometimes they are in denial. *To suggest that one group is entitled to a special place eliminates the discussion and no one benefits*.


That can also have the effect of turning the WS into the victim...which many WSs would love to do...I mean the terms "blameshifting" and "gaslighting" are used when describing the behavior of some WS for a reason....and in many cases are very effective methods for getting the BS to own part of the affair...the only affair anyone should own is one where they get both the pleasure and the blame...


----------



## Rookie4

One thing. This site exists to help with marriage problems and issues. In the CWI forum, we are attempting to help with and understand one of the worst disasters that any marriage can face.
Most BS's want to know what is in the mind of the cheater. How can you find out, if you attack and do not let the WS speak his/her piece? I think that in a lot of cases, the BS is afraid of what they might learn, so they make up scenarios where they are only the innocent victim, and never an accessory. Like my other analogy, we might not have pulled the trigger, but we might have helped to aim the gun. BS's WANT to believe that the WS is evil, so they don't have to work on themselves. So when a WS comes here WANTING help, and accepting responsibility, they should be treated with respect.


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> One thing. This site exists to help with marriage problems and issues. In the CWI forum, we are attempting to help with and understand one of the worst disasters that any marriage can face.
> Most BS's want to know what is in the mind of the cheater. How can you find out, if you attack and do not let the WS speak his/her piece? *I think that in a lot of cases, the BS is afraid of what they might learn, so they make up scenarios where they are only the innocent victim, and never an accessory.* Like my other analogy, we might not have pulled the trigger, but we might have helped to aim the gun. *BS's WANT to believe that the WS is evil, so they don't have to work on themselves.* So when a WS comes here WANTING help, and accepting responsibility, they should be treated with respect.


And you wonder why folks take offense, go figure.


----------



## Another Planet

Rookie4 said:


> I really don't care what you are. I was pointing out that in any kind of a polite society with any kind of positive morality, civility and courtesy are practiced. But you seem to think that it is "coddling" to be polite or respectful to a WS, and I would like to know why you think this way. Being courteous does not imply agreement.


How pretentious and hypocritical.

Adultery is an aggressive act to the morality of society, I do not support it and I will not respect it. I can and will treat someone as a person but I will have a biased perspective of them.

P.S. I really don't care what you are either 0>:wink2:


----------



## Another Planet

Rookie4 said:


> This HAS happened, but very rarely. If this were common, then TAM would be a WS friendly site and BS's would be in the minority. But that is not the case, is it? In most cases, WS's come here and start a thread , then will be crucified, until they leave. THIS scenario is, unfortunately, the most common occurrence. I would guess that we now have a 90-10% (or worse) split , with the BS's in the vast majority. This was not always the case. When I first began to visit this site, WS's were treated better and much more knowledge was gained and given by all posters.


I disagree and have yet to see the berating of WS you speak of. 

I am not just a BS but also a WS and before I showed up here I had little to no care for any one else relationship status's and had multiple affair partners. I at first was very agitated by the lack of support and sympathy to my life style choices and felt attacked. After guidance from many fine folk at TAM and a dozen 2x4's across the head I took heed and followed suit. Without the disagreement from everyone I probably would never have delved into my own psyche to change my path. Yes at times it seemed to me more then a little rough but now looking back it was only rough because I did not want to own up to my mistakes and admit what I was.

Personally I think it is the way it is because it needs to be. I see very little name calling and anything of concern is dealt with appropriately through the mods who do a fine job.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Another Planet said:


> What rabbit hole?





Rookie4 said:


> I really don't care what you are. *I was pointing out that in any kind of a polite society with any kind of positive morality, civility and courtesy are practiced.* But you seem to think that *it is "coddling" to be polite or respectful to a WS, *and I would like to know why you think this way. Being courteous does not imply agreement.


"shrugs*


----------



## VeryHurt

During the years I have been a BS, I have actually searched for sites to understand the WS and the OW and I found some of what I discovered to be quite enlightening. 

I know this may seem odd but I wish I knew many years ago the reasons a WS could be unhappy and why they choose to be unfaithful.

I also learned a lot from researching what the OW says about their relationship/affair with the WS.

Perhaps many cases of infidelity would be averted and therefore those marriages and families could be saved?

On the flip side, a WS could learn from loyal spouses the extent of pain that we have endured and have insight on how it feels to have your heart ripped out of your chest.

The OW would know the other side of the story/marriage and not just the side the WS is telling.

However, I can certainly understand the tension that would surely arise on a forum between WS, LS, OW and OM.


----------



## Dude007

Can't we all just get along?

Rodney king
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Another Planet said:


> How pretentious and hypocritical.
> 
> Adultery is an aggressive act to the morality of society, I do not support it and I will not respect it. I can and will treat someone as a person but I will have a biased perspective of them.
> 
> P.S. I really don't care what you are either 0>:wink2:


Nobody said to respect the act of adultery. Either you don't understand common English or you are being deliberately evasive. I have asked you the same question 3 times, and you will not answer, so if you refuse again, then I'm done with you. Why do you think that being civil and courteous to WS's is Coddling?


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> One thing. This site exists to help with marriage problems and issues. In the CWI forum, we are attempting to help with and understand one of the worst disasters that any marriage can face.
> Most BS's want to know what is in the mind of the cheater. How can you find out, if you attack and do not let the WS speak his/her piece? I think that in a lot of cases, the BS is afraid of what they might learn, so they make up scenarios where they are only the innocent victim, and never an accessory. Like my other analogy, *we might not have pulled the trigger, but we might have helped to aim the gun.* BS's WANT to believe that the WS is evil, so they don't have to work on themselves. So when a WS comes here WANTING help, and accepting responsibility, they should be treated with respect.


Rookie is 1,000,000% percent right. Beautifully put.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wazza said:


> Rookie is 1,000,000% percent right. Beautifully put.


----------



## Wazza

Truthseeker1 said:


>


Such an intelligent and evidence-based point of view....well done sir, I am truly bested by the sheer force of your intellect and the logical persuasion of your impeccable reasoning. I cannot compete with someone who clearly has a brain the size of a planet.

All I have is 25 years successful reconciliation that would not have happened had I followed TAM orthodoxy, but that does owe something to some of the same ideas Rookie has been articulating in this thread. Just putting it out there. Accept or reject as you will.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wazza said:


> Such an intelligent and evidence-based point of view....well done sir, I am truly bested by the sheer force of your intellect and the logical persuasion of your impeccable reasoning. I cannot compete with someone who clearly has a brain the size of a planet.
> 
> All I have is 25 years successful reconciliation that would not have happened had I followed TAM orthodoxy, but that does owe something to some of the same ideas Rookie has been articulating in this thread. Just putting it out there. Accept or reject as you will.


Put me in the reject camp...thank you..have a nice day...


----------



## Heatherknows

EleGirl said:


> I think that a lot of WS who could be helped are driven off TAM because attacks are piled on page after page.
> 
> When a WS comes here we have a chance to change their mindset and in turn help their BS. If the WS is helped to see that they have to end the affair and that there things that they have to do to repair the marriage and/or move on, we'd be doing a good service to the WS & BS. Instead the name calling, attacks.
> 
> A poster can take a less attacking approach and thus not run the WS away.. and by doing so get the person who actually talk and change their mind set.
> 
> If a person is attacked, it usually just solidifies their position.. it's called self defense.
> 
> I've read posts from moderators in the past saying that WS's are not supposed to be attacked and should be treated in respect on TAM. I hardly ever see this happen however.


I agree. If a WS posts here then obviously they know that something isn't good and wants help. Maybe they're not ready to let the affair go or tell their spouse but posting here is the first step in ending the affair. They needed to be treated carefully to show them that verbalizing the truth is a good thing. By attacking them you are sending them back into the arms of the affair partner where they can feel safe and wanted and that's where TAM fails. If members can validate the WS feelings without condoning the cheating then change can happen.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Heatherknows said:


> I agree. If a WS posts here then obviously they know that something isn't good and wants help. Maybe they're not ready to let the affair go or tell their spouse but posting here is the first step in ending the affair. They needed to be treated carefully to show them that verbalizing the truth is a good thing. By attacking them you are sending them back into the arms of the affair partner where they can feel safe and wanted and that's where TAM fails. *If members can validate the WS feelings without condoning the cheating then change can happen*.


Please define "validate the WS feelings"


----------



## Bibi1031

Rookie4 said:


> I have always liked the dancing cats:laugh::laugh:


Me 2!

Lol Dude. Just block him and his dancing pair...of cats that is! >

Bibi


----------



## Dude007

I think OM had two dancing cats IRL so it's triggering me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Another Planet

Rookie4 said:


> Nobody said to respect the act of adultery. Either you don't understand common English or you are being deliberately evasive. *I have asked you the same question 3 times, and you will not answer, so if you refuse again, then I'm done with you.* Why do you think that being civil and courteous to WS's is Coddling?


Are you serious? How childish to make requests of me like I am some subordinate! Good be done with me. So sorry I challenged your ridiculous "Warning" to all that the end is near because you proclaim it. I can only imagine what a wonderful person you are in real life. Your online persona hints of narcissist tendency with a lick of insecurity, I'm sure everyone just loves you.



Another Planet said:


> How pretentious and hypocritical.
> 
> Adultery is an aggressive act to the morality of society, I do not support it and I will not respect it. I can and will treat someone as a person but I will have a biased perspective of them.
> 
> P.S. I really don't care what you are either 0>:wink2:





Another Planet said:


> I disagree and have yet to see the berating of WS you speak of.
> 
> I am not just a BS but also a WS and before I showed up here I had little to no care for any one else relationship status's and had multiple affair partners. I at first was very agitated by the lack of support and sympathy to my life style choices and felt attacked. After guidance from many fine folk at TAM and a dozen 2x4's across the head I took heed and followed suit. Without the disagreement from everyone I probably would never have delved into my own psyche to change my path. Yes at times it seemed to me more then a little rough but now looking back it was only rough because I did not want to own up to my mistakes and admit what I was.
> 
> Personally I think it is the way it is because it needs to be. I see very little name calling and anything of concern is dealt with appropriately through the mods who do a fine job.


Since you can't decipher my less then common English let me rephrase it...
Because they are aholes and shouldn't be babied through the damage they have caused not only to their significant other but possibly children and family, not to mention the embarrassment to society they represent.


----------



## Heatherknows

Truthseeker1 said:


> Please define "validate the WS feelings"


Sure. If a WS says something like "I've been having an affair and I'm trying to break it off but I care about the OM." 

Instead if saying "Then get a divorce you cake eating [email protected]#$" you can say "You've spent time with the OM so it's normal to feel a bond and breaking bonds is always difficult."


----------



## Truthseeker1

Heatherknows said:


> Sure. If a WS says something like "I've been having an affair and I'm trying to break it off but I care about the OM."
> 
> Instead if saying "Then get a divorce you cake eating [email protected]#$" you can say "You've spent time with the OM so it's normal to feel a bond and breaking bonds is always difficult."


Thanks for clarifying...I guess the approach is case specific..


----------



## Wazza

Another Planet said:


> Because they are aholes and shouldn't be babied through the damage they have caused not only to their significant other but possibly children and family, not to mention the embarrassment to society they represent.


On one level I agree with you, but it depends on what you see as the end game. 

My wife was an absolute ahole at the time of her affair and for a while after. There were reasons. They did not excuse her choices, and I would have been totally within my rights to kick her out. You used the word damage. In my case, at least, way too mild. And it was all on her. It was her issues.

But kicking her out still would have left my kids with a broken home. It sucks, but that is what it is. 

We worked through it, in part by understanding her issues. I had to understand them to make sense of it. She had to understand them to address her shortcomings. My kids grew up in a stable, loving environment. I regained one of the most important relationships in my life. Because actually, she is this mix of good and bad. Like most people. And she happens to be a mix I can work with.

*
BUT WE GOT THERE BECAUSE WE GOT TO THE POINT WHERE WE COULD HAVE A CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOG.*

Not everyone will be able to put it back together, but even for those who can't, surely an amicable split is going to lead to better coparenting and so on, rather than an acrimonious one. And I know other couples who have done it.

So, I get that it hurts. But do you want to help people? Or do you just want to punish waywards, regardless of collateral damage? Be civil, and people will open up. Kick them in the teeth and they will be more defensive.

Start being aware of the number of threads where the OP disappears. Is that the outcome you want?


----------



## The Middleman

Another Planet said:


> So sorry I challenged your ridiculous "Warning" to all that the end is near because you proclaim it. I can only imagine what a wonderful person you are in real life. Your online persona hints of narcissist tendency with a lick of insecurity, I'm sure everyone just loves you.
> 
> Because they are aholes and shouldn't be babied through the damage they have caused not only to their significant other but possibly children and family, not to mention the embarrassment to society they represent.


While I don't agree with Rookie on his premise for this thread (for the reasons I stated in my post) let's not forget his credentials as a BS. As I remember his story, his WW put him through a fair amount of crap and he was one of the few BHs who handled it well. He didn't put up with any of her sh*t or the POSOM's sh*t, he divorced her ass and made a life for himself. As I remember he only attempted reconciliation after pressure from family, but he did it from a position of strength; as a divorced man, not a position of weakness. In the end he realized reconciliation was not for him (wise choice on his part) and he continued moving on. I recall him getting some sh*t from those folks on the old "Reconciliation" thread for giving up on his reconciliation.

So agree with him or not (and I don't), he's walked this walk better than most, especially most BH's. He deserves some respect.

Another Planet, for the most part, I do agree with your sentiments.


----------



## EleGirl

Heatherknows said:


> Sure. If a WS says something like "I've been having an affair and I'm trying to break it off but I care about the OM."
> 
> Instead if saying "Then get a divorce you cake eating [email protected]#$" you can say "You've spent time with the OM so it's normal to feel a bond and breaking bonds is always difficult."


Yep, you are right. The second response is more likely to get them the WS to actually break off the affair. The first response it more likely to make them defensive and get them to take a very defensive stance which includes staying in the affair.


----------



## Anon Pink

Heatherknows said:


> Sure. If a WS says something like "I've been having an affair and I'm trying to break it off but I care about the OM."
> 
> Instead if saying "Then get a divorce you cake eating [email protected]#$" you can say "You've spent time with the OM so it's normal to feel a bond and breaking bonds is always difficult."


Validating feelings isn't the same as validating behavior.

"Of course you FEEL that way..." 

Is not the same as 

"you go girl, rock that OM and a big F you to your husband!"

One of the reasons why the men at TAM, the BH's, bond together so well is that here they can safely express their feelings and be validated. Validation is not something men can get in real life, easily, because talking about being betrayed, having a close friend they can confide in is not too common unfortunately. They come here, poor out their hearts, hear validation and the feel understood. 

The trouble is, once understood, it is time to learn to understand and a lot of you are stuck on getting to the second part. Understanding is not the same as agreeing. Just like validation, you can be understood and still be wrong.


----------



## oneMOreguy

I tend not to agree with many posting from Rookie4..........but in this thread, he truly has tried to calmly and factually post his thoughts and opinions. The strong responses he has elicited in some sense validates his initial concerns.

I am more of a WS than a BS, so I do not have the same triggering reactions of the BS on here, but I certainly have come to understand how terrible and awful that feeling must be. And yet, allowing WS to come here and post honestly, and not just according to what the BS think they want to hear, could be very useful.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Anon Pink said:


> Validating feelings isn't the same as validating behavior.
> 
> "Of course you FEEL that way..."
> 
> Is not the same as
> 
> "you go girl, rock that OM and a big F you to your husband!"
> 
> One of the reasons why the men at TAM, the BH's, bond together so well is that here they can safely express their feelings and be validated. Validation is not something men can get in real life, easily, because talking about being betrayed, having a close friend they can confide in is not too common unfortunately. They come here, poor out their hearts, hear validation and the feel understood.
> 
> The trouble is, once understood, it is time to learn to understand and a lot of you are stuck on getting to the second part. Understanding is not the same as agreeing. Just like validation, you can be understood and still be wrong.


..........you are showing a lot of insight into what is happening from my perspective. Thanks for posting this.


----------



## Rookie4

We have gotten pretty far off the point. In order to re-focus, allow me to say that I have absolutely no trouble with posters who disagree with me, if they do so with courtesy and from a position of honest conviction. The insulters, attackers, and the snarky, yes.... I have issues with, and as most of the posters here know already, I am not the least reluctant to respond.
Which brings me back to my original point. Being courteous and allowing WS's to voice their opinions and concerns is in no way an act of agreement. Only the feeble minded would think it is. What it DOES, is allow BS's who are having emotional issues, to better understand the "WHY" of the affair, the mindset of the WS, what was possibly wrong in the marriage and with each partner, and to attain closure..ALL of these things, in the long run, will aid the BS considerably.
Actually, the reluctance of some BS's to even attempt to communicate with their WS's is possibly indicative of a general lack of communication before the affair took place. It has been my experience that relationships based on honest and courteous communication are usually the most healthy and lasting. I have said this before, but it is a constant amazement to me that so few married people know their spouses. This, of course, includes myself.


----------



## Rookie4

The Middleman said:


> While I don't agree with Rookie on his premise for this thread (for the reasons I stated in my post) let's not forget his credentials as a BS. As I remember his story, his WW put him through a fair amount of crap and he was one of the few BHs who handled it well. He didn't put up with any of her sh*t or the POSOM's sh*t, he divorced her ass and made a life for himself. As I remember he only attempted reconciliation after pressure from family, but he did it from a position of strength; as a divorced man, not a position of weakness. In the end he realized reconciliation was not for him (wise choice on his part) and he continued moving on. I recall him getting some sh*t from those folks on the old "Reconciliation" thread for giving up on his reconciliation.
> 
> So agree with him or not (and I don't), he's walked this walk better than most, especially most BH's. He deserves some respect.
> 
> Another Planet, for the most part, I do agree with your sentiments.


ONe thing I would like to point out, is that I kicked my wife out of our home within an hour or so of her admitting to the affair. I did not ever consider reconciliation until 2 1/2 years AFTER our divorce. But ,at no time, did I ever insult her, hit her, or deride her to others. I talked to her very rarely after kicking her out, but when I did, I listened to her and treated her civilly, then did what I felt was best for me and my kids. I did not consider her a part of my family, so she was left to deal with her issues, herself.


----------



## MJJEAN

The internet is made up of people from various societies around the world and in the vast majority of those societies infidelity is frowned upon. In the majority of cultures, ones word is their bond and once they have broken their word they are considered no longer trustworthy by more than just the person they betrayed. Of course those who admit infidelity on public forums are going to take some lumps.

I've been a WW and a BW. Honestly, I don't blame people one bit for civilly criticizing WS's. Truth is, affairs do damage to the spouses, their families, their friends, and so on in an ever widening circle. Being unfaithful is a terrible thing to do. Maybe if society were just a wee bit tougher on WS's, people would be deterred from making that choice.


----------



## MJJEAN

Rookie4;13910994
Actually said:


> Not necessarily. In a lot of cases I don't think it's a lack of ability to communicate with the WS before the A, but a lack of desire to after the A has been discovered. Sometimes, there's just nothing left to say.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> ONe thing I would like to point out, is that I kicked my wife out of our home within an hour or so of her admitting to the affair. I did not ever consider reconciliation until 2 1/2 years AFTER our divorce. But ,at no time, did I ever insult her, hit her, or deride her to others. I talked to her very rarely after kicking her out, but when I did, I listened to her and treated her civilly, then did what I felt was best for me and my kids. I did not consider her a part of my family, so she was left to deal with her issues, herself.


Rookie I disagree with you about a lot of things but I agree with @The Middleman - the way you handled your situation was excellent. The way I see it is your actions spoke for you and got the message across better than any insult could. By kicking her out and dating like you did - said it all to her - you were not taking any bullsh!t. I think it is great you two are on good terms today and you have a great GF in your life.

*I would also challenge the way you phrased your gun analogy. You said the WS pulled the trigger but the BS helped aim it. I disagree. The way I would phrase itis - the BS and the WS had issues - the WS then picked up the gun, loaded it, and pulled the trigger to resolve those issues. The BS had nothing to do with their reaction to the issues in the marriage. I would go one step further in some cases the WS got in their car, cruised the community looking for a gun store, went in and bought the biggest gun they could find. *

So one last time - IMO civility is fine but a "safe space" for waywards is not and would change the character of TAM. I also agree with @MJJEAN sometimes what a WS needs is a 2 x 4 and to be challenged - they have done enough damage to their spouse, their kids, everyone - they need to be made to understand as much as possible what they have done.


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## The Middleman

Rookie4 said:


> But ,at no time, did I ever insult her, hit her, or deride her to others. I talked to her very rarely after kicking her out, but when I did, I listened to her and treated her civilly, then did what I felt was best for me and my kids.


Well, you just might be a better man than I am. I would have been in full attack mode and would have told anyone who would listen the details of what she did. To each their own, but a crime requires punishment, and I'm not a "turn the other check" kind of guy (not suggesting that you are). But in general I will always advise a BS not to put up with it, expose no matter what, begin the divorce process right away and get the poison out of their lives. Once they are single again, and there is real regret, maybe there is room for reconciliation .... but not from the "safety net" of an existing marriage.

My signature says that "If more people were judgmental, then maybe there would be less infidelity". As a society we have stigmatized racism, homophobia, polluters, sexism, pedophiles, sex offenders, and the list goes on. Why aren't we as outraged with adulters and infidelity. Too often it's explained away as human nature ... nothing you can do about it. Bullsh*t! If you buy that argument, you can buy all the behaviors I mentioned above as human nature too, because they have been around just as long as infidelity has. We as a society have chosen not to accept those behaviors, it's time to do the same with infidelity. I just won't give a wayward an easy time of it.


----------



## Truthseeker1

The Middleman said:


> Well, you just might be a better man than I am. I would have been in full attack mode and would have told anyone who would listen the details of what she did. To each their own, but a crime requires punishment, and I'm not a "turn the other check" kind of guy (not suggesting that you are). But in general I will always advise a BS not to put up with it, expose no matter what, begin the divorce process right away and get the poison out of their lives. Once they are single again, and there is real regret, maybe there is room for reconciliation .... but not from the "safety net" of an existing marriage.
> 
> My signature says that "If more people were judgmental, then maybe there would be less infidelity". As a society we have stigmatized racism, homophobia, polluters, sexism, pedophiles, sex offenders, and the list goes on. Why aren't we as outraged with adulters and infidelity. Too often it's explained away as human nature ... nothing you can do about it. Bullsh*t! If you buy that argument, you can buy all the behaviors I mentioned above as human nature too, because they have been around just as long as infidelity has. We as a society have chosen not to accept those behaviors, it's time to do the same with infidelity. I just won't give a wayward an easy time of it.


 @The Middleman


----------



## Heatherknows

Anon Pink said:


> Validating feelings isn't the same as validating behavior.
> 
> "Of course you FEEL that way..."
> 
> Is not the same as
> 
> "you go girl, rock that OM and a big F you to your husband!"
> 
> One of the reasons why the men at TAM, the BH's, bond together so well is that here they can safely express their feelings and be validated. Validation is not something men can get in real life, easily, because talking about being betrayed, having a close friend they can confide in is not too common unfortunately. They come here, poor out their hearts, hear validation and the feel understood.
> 
> The trouble is, once understood, it is time to learn to understand and a lot of you are stuck on getting to the second part. Understanding is not the same as agreeing. Just like validation, you can be understood and still be wrong.


Exactly. Also, validation and understanding are only part of the healing process. I see many BS on TAM who vent their feelings and "beat up" WS to the point of exhaustion. I don't think one has to forgive and forget to move forward but I do think they need to stop obsessing about the betrayal after a certain point. I've spent too much of my life obsessing about the wrongs people have done to me and it's never made me feel any better.


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## Dude007

And I'll say it again, how many BS are willing to admit they themselves had wayward tendencies/thoughts?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

The Middleman said:


> Well, you just might be a better man than I am. I would have been in full attack mode and would have told anyone who would listen the details of what she did. To each their own, but a crime requires punishment, and I'm not a "turn the other check" kind of guy (not suggesting that you are). But in general I will always advise a BS not to put up with it, expose no matter what, begin the divorce process right away and get the poison out of their lives. Once they are single again, and there is real regret, maybe there is room for reconciliation .... but not from the "safety net" of an existing marriage.
> 
> My signature says that "If more people were judgmental, then maybe there would be less infidelity". As a society we have stigmatized racism, homophobia, polluters, sexism, pedophiles, sex offenders, and the list goes on. Why aren't we as outraged with adulters and infidelity. Too often it's explained away as human nature ... nothing you can do about it. Bullsh*t! If you buy that argument, you can buy all the behaviors I mentioned above as human nature too, because they have been around just as long as infidelity has. We as a society have chosen not to accept those behaviors, it's time to do the same with infidelity. *I just won't give a wayward an easy time of it.*


*Just why would a BS ever make it easy on a partner, more especially, who was deceptively, unfaithfully and covertly cheating on them?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dude007

They'd make it easy if they were trying to get a good settlement or possibly they had an eye on someone they were interested in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thinkitthrough

I am a lightweight in these discussions, but I am also a BH and 20 months into reconciliation with my WW. It has been a struggle, between IC, MC and difficult conversations we have worked together to come to terms with her affair, the pictures and the chats and the reasons why. To have a place where a WS might explore they whys of their offence with the guidance of the wise and experienced with safety but not approval or support for their acts and with firmness, seems a good one. If the forum was intended to aid those Wayward who want help sincerely, are prepared for fair if harsh advice, willing to do the work and not to be pandered to or coddled, it makes some sense. If it brings some WS to their senses and reduces the suffering of a BS it will have done good. I can see the peril and the risk of such a Forum next to those of the Betrayed, but if carefully monitored and used correctly it might help. I can think of times when such a forum might have saved me and my fWW some time and pain.


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## Rookie4

arbitrator said:


> *Just why would a BS ever make it easy on a partner, more especially, who was deceptively, unfaithfully and covertly cheating on them?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here again, projection. Who ever said anything about making it easy for the WS? Civility and courtesy is a reflection on each person's own upbringing, not any form of agreement or forgiveness.. How did I, by being civil to my wife, make it easy on her? I kicked her out of our home and family, ended our marriage , refused to reconcile, dated other people and refused to involve myself in her problems. Everything bad that happened to her was of her own making. How was any of this "easy" on her? Should I have beaten her or screamed abuse at her? In what way would this have had any effect on my situation? Or anybody else's?
My goal in remaining here on TAM is to help people improve their relationships. Too many BS's are more concerned with exacting punishment and expressing hate, than improving oneself and learning how to make any future relationships better.


----------



## arbitrator

Rookie4 said:


> Here again, projection. Who ever said anything about making it easy for the WS? Civility and courtesy is a reflection on each person's own upbringing, not any form of agreement or forgiveness.. How did I, by being civil to my wife, make it easy on her? I kicked her out of our home and family, ended our marriage , refused to reconcile, dated other people and refused to involve myself in her problems. Everything bad that happened to her was of her own making. How was any of this "easy" on her? Should I have beaten her or screamed abuse at her? In what way would this have had any effect on my situation? Or anybody else's?
> My goal in remaining here on TAM is to help people improve their relationships. Too many BS's are more concerned with exacting punishment and expressing hate, than improving oneself and learning how to make any future relationships better.


*I, for one, really like your commentary on this particular subject matter! But as the "twice anointed" BS, I really feel all that I am trying to exact from either of my unfaithful spouses is simply a heartfelt confession of their misgivings; but more importantly, I'm simply requesting from them a reason for their having committed it! Nothing more and nothing less!

Exacting "Punishment" itself has never been at the top of the priority list, excepting, of course, that they are working in some strange way to punish me for their having committed the original atrocity against me in the first place!
*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NextTimeAround

Dude007 said:


> So why would a bs stay so bitter, wouldn't they move through the grieving cycle to acceptance or are some of them engaging in big pharma and so they can never move to acceptance(resolution)? I mean eventually you have to move on for your own sanity. Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Bitter is also in the eye of the beholder. 

Any even objective observation of the cheater could be interpreted by third parties as being bitter.

Look at someone's life. Are they moving forward? Are they getting things done? 

Even when in conflict with other people, I hear "You've spent so much time on this person / situation......."

Who are they to judge? Especially when they are not involved?

And has someone come up with guidelines, ratios as to what is acceptable in terms of dealing with a conflict and "getting on" with someone's life?


----------



## The Middleman

arbitrator said:


> *Just why would a BS ever make it easy on a partner, more especially, who was deceptively, unfaithfully and covertly cheating on them?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As you have seen here multiple times, many do.


----------



## Heatherknows

Dude007 said:


> And I'll say it again, how many BS are willing to admit they themselves had wayward tendencies/thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Everyone wants to be wanted and no marriage is perfect. 

TBH I get a thrill when I come in contact with an attractive male who seems attracted to me. It's an immediate reaction in my body. The first thing I do is try to hide the fact that I'm attracted to this man by not looking too long into his eyes and watching what I say to him as to not come across as too flirtatious. 

This is why I don't have any male friends. The temptation to cross a line would be too strong and the friendship would always be strained due to sexual tension. Life is hard enough without that aggravation.


----------



## nursejackie

I felt that my situation (a former ww who had not disclosed- who suspected/s her H of cheating) was handled on TAM with both compassion and wisdom. 

I was given support and a variety of perspectives from people who have the experience and the knowledge to be helpful.

Eventually I was given a butt kicking for not disclosing but it was deserved and served as a wake-up call. I wouldn't say there was name calling- I would say that a mirror was held up that showed me a side of myself that I was blind to. 

It gave me the push I needed to disclose. I am dealing with the aftermath now but doing it from a place of truthfulness. I am grateful for that.


----------



## Dude007

Heatherknows said:


> Everyone wants to be wanted and no marriage is perfect.
> 
> TBH I get a thrill when I come in contact with an attractive male who seems attracted to me. It's an immediate reaction in my body. The first thing I do is try to hide the fact that I'm attracted to this man by not looking too long into his eyes and watching what I say to him as to not come across as too flirtatious.
> 
> This is why I don't have any male friends. The temptation to cross a line would be too strong and the friendship would always be strained due to sexual tension. Life is hard enough without that aggravation.


Your honesty is appreciated. I'm the same way only with women. DUDE


----------



## Rookie4

arbitrator said:


> *iI, for one, really like your commentary on this particular subject matter! But as the "twice anointed" BS, I really feel all that I am trying to exact from either of my unfaithful spouses is simply a heartfelt confession of their misgivings; but more importantly, I'm simply requesting from them a reason for their having committed it! Nothing more and nothing less!
> 
> Exacting "Punishment" itself has never been at the top of the priority list, excepting, of course, that they are working in some strange way to punish me for their having committed the original atrocity against me in the first place!
> *
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope you understand , Arbitrator, that I am speaking in general, and not at you personally. I have always thought you were a very thoughtful and intelligent poster. 
I think you are like a lot of the other posters, Arbitrator, in than you want to know the reasons behind the actions.
This is basically the motive for my starting the thread, in the first place. Not that I approve of WS's, or want to make it "easy' for them. I just feel that you can get more flies with sugar than you can with castor oil. 
For the most part, WS's come here to seek help with their issues. Very, very, VERY, few unrepentant WS's come to TAM. Probably less than 1% of the total WS's, which is probably less than 10% of the total posters on the CWI forums. So maybe 1/10th of a % ever come here to brag about their affair, or show disrespect to their spouse.
By being courteous and kind, you have a far greater chance of getting useful information from them, than you would by insults and badmouthing. If I were a WS (and I'm not) I wouldn't give some of these posters, sh*t. Being a BS does not, automatically, grant a poster the right to be a di*k.


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## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Being a BS does not, automatically, grant a poster the right to be a di*k.


This is absolutely correct...

Being -- or having been -- a BS doesn't give me, you, or anyone else the right to be a d*ck.

It's my keyboard that gives me that right.


----------



## MJJEAN

Dude007 said:


> And I'll say it again, how many BS are willing to admit they themselves had wayward tendencies/thoughts?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think about murdering at least one person a day. I know that if I cross the line between thought and action, I will be dealt with rather harshly by the law, society in general, and the loved ones of my victim.

People think about doing heinous things all the time. There is a difference between thinking and doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

MJJEAN said:


> I think about murdering at least one person a day. I know that if I cross the line between thought and action, I will be dealt with rather harshly by the law, society in general, and the loved ones of my victim.
> 
> People think about doing heinous things all the time. There is a difference between thinking and doing.


Word.

If I were to act upon every thought that entered my head, the world would be a much different place.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> This is absolutely correct...
> 
> Being -- or having been -- a BS doesn't give me, you, or anyone else the right to be a d*ck.
> 
> It's my keyboard that gives me that right.


Well, Gus, it's good to see you exercise that right, so frequently.:grin2:


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## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Gus, it's good to see you exercise that right, so frequently.:grin2:


Use it or lose it, yo.


----------



## Dude007

MJJEAN said:


> I think about murdering at least one person a day. I know that if I cross the line between thought and action, I will be dealt with rather harshly by the law, society in general, and the loved ones of my victim.
> 
> People think about doing heinous things all the time. There is a difference between thinking and doing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm quite certain you have acted on some bad(wrong) thought in your life, quite certain. DUDE


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## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> I'm quite certain you have acted on some bad(wrong) thought in your life, quite certain. DUDE


Because one wrong is just _as wrong_ as any other, right?


----------



## Dude007

GusPolinski said:


> Because one wrong is just _as wrong_ as any other, right?


Because no one lives in absolutes. I'm sure some betrayed(Hip) folks here have done things in their lives that might seem heinous to some. Therefore, NO ONE can pass judgement. Can you divorce your cheating spouse, sure, that's your NUCLEAR option and the ULTIMATE HAMMER. Judging on the other hand, I think not..DUDE


----------



## arbitrator

*I never intentionally, or even unintentionally try to be the proverbial "d!ck!" I was always raised up to always "kill them with kindness!"

After all, they aren't exactly required, in any way, to report any of their wayward misgivings to the ones they cheated or transgressed upon~ but the same thing cannot be said about confessing it to their Creator!

The really brazen one's may actually think that they're getting away with a "free ride," but in essence, they're getting anything but that!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> Because no one lives in absolutes. I'm sure some betrayed(Hip) folks here have done things in their lives that might seem heinous to some. Therefore, NO ONE can pass judgement. Can you divorce your cheating spouse, sure, that's your NUCLEAR option and the ULTIMATE HAMMER. Judging on the other hand, I think not..DUDE


After 5 years of mostly sexless marriage, Bob had a few too many at the hotel bar and wound up having ONS w/ a co-worker while out of town at a sales conference. He confessed the affair to his wife immediately upon returning home, had a new job within 6 weeks, and, after 3 years of counseling, hard work, and heavy lifting, their marriage is better than ever. 

Jim cheated on his wife w/ her younger sister on and off over a period of 10 years. Once she discovered the affair, and after exposing it to her family, Mrs. Jim took their 4 children to stay w/ her parents for a week. Jim then got very drunk, showed up at his in-laws' house, and -- upon being refused entry to the house -- beat his FIL within an inch of his life. Jim is now in prison awaiting trial, unable to provide for his wife (who was a SAHM) and kids, and will likely be sentenced to 2-5 years in a state penitentiary. His oldest daughter is now cutting herself, and his SIL/OW has been committed to the local psych ward and is on suicide watch, leaving her devastated husband and 3 children (one of which looks just like Jim) at home wondering WTF happened.

Sooo... who is "worse", Bob or Jim?

Congrats, you just passed judgement.

People can and do pass judgement all day, every day. That's just a fact of life. But is said judgement always valid, accurate, or whatever? No. Obviously not.

_But sometimes it is._

And sure, those who do judge (i.e. everyone everywhere) have surely committed their own transgressions. That doesn't really matter, though, because a given wrong isn't wrong based upon whether or not someone else living somewhere else has or hasn't committed a "greater wrong"; a wrong is wrong because it is wrong.

Period.


----------



## Dude007

GusPolinski said:


> After 5 years of mostly sexless marriage, Bob had a few too many at the hotel bar and wound up having ONS w/ a co-worker while out of town at a sales conference. He confessed the affair to his wife immediately upon returning home, had a new job within 6 weeks, and, after 3 years of counseling, hard work, and heavy lifting, their marriage is better than ever.
> 
> Jim cheated on his wife w/ her younger sister on and off over a period of 10 years. Once she discovered the affair, and after exposing it to her family, Mrs. Jim took their 4 children to stay w/ her parents for a week. Jim then got very drunk, showed up at his in-laws' house, and -- upon being refused entry to the house -- beat his FIL within an inch of his life. Jim is now in prison awaiting trial, unable to provide for his wife (who was a SAHM) and kids, and will likely be sentenced to 2-5 years in a state penitentiary. His oldest daughter is now cutting herself, and his SIL/OW has been committed to the local psych ward and is on suicide watch, leaving her devastated husband and 3 children (one of which looks just like Jim) at home wondering WTF happened.
> 
> Sooo... who is "worse", Bob or Jim?
> 
> Congrats, you just passed judgement.
> 
> People can and do pass judgement all day, every day. That's just a fact of life. But is said judgement always valid, accurate, or whatever? No. Obviously not.
> 
> _But sometimes it is._
> 
> And sure, those who do judge (i.e. everyone everywhere) have surely committed their own transgressions. That doesn't really matter, though, because a given wrong isn't wrong based upon whether or not someone else living somewhere else has or hasn't committed a "greater wrong"; a wrong is wrong because it is wrong.
> 
> Period.


You are talking a crime here. I doubt most betrayed on here have a criminal stand against their wayward spouse. I didn't realize I had to cover scenarios covered by the criminal justice system(Judge/Jury). I thought we were just talking betrayal by a spouse rather financial or emotional. DUDE


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> You are talking a crime here. I doubt most betrayed on here have a criminal stand against their wayward spouse. I didn't realize I had to cover scenarios covered by the criminal justice system(Judge/Jury). I thought we were just talking betrayal by a spouse rather financial or emotional. DUDE


OK, then take out the part about Jim beating his FIL and going to jail.

Who is "worse", Bob or Jim?


----------



## Dude007

I'm not good at judging(obviously), but I'd say they both made huge mistakes. The ONS could have gotten his wife a STD like herpes while the other was somehow safer with the known AP. Although the triggers for the second bs would be endless. Like I said, I'm not good at judging cuz the what ifs are endless. Technically they are both in breach of their contract. Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not judgemental by nature. I'm also VERY FORGIVING, which as we know, the forgiveness is for the forgiver...DUDE


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> I'm not good at judging(obviously), but I'd say they both made huge mistakes. The ONS could have gotten his wife a STD like herpes while the other was somehow safer with the known AP. Although the triggers for the second bs would be endless. Like I said, I'm not good at judging cuz the what ifs are endless. Technically they are both in breach of their contract. Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just not judgemental by nature. I'm also VERY FORGIVING, which as we know, the forgiveness is for the forgiver...DUDE


Both scenarios have unfolded in precisely the manner that I described above w/ no variation whatsoever.

Either way...


----------



## carmen ohio

MattMatt said:


> There's a difference between being forceful and being bloody rude.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, Matt, but what we Americans consider being _"forceful,"_ you Brits call being _"rude."_

Maybe we should have a separate forum for forceful/rude people.

Just kidding.

But not really.


----------



## MJJEAN

Dude007 said:


> I'm quite certain you have acted on some bad(wrong) thought in your life, quite certain. DUDE


Of course I have! Hell, I was a WW for 5 years with multiple AP's, 7 years if you count the period of time between separating and finally being able to file and get a divorce decree. I've done a whole boatload of wrong.

The thing is, though, that I was aware what I was doing was wrong and that there would be consequences. I knew people would disapprove and that there would be censure. I've always been ok with that. I was doing something seen as heinous from society's point of view and never expected society to coddle me once it became aware.

Having thought about doing a lot of truly rotten things and having done some truly rotten things, I can say from experience there is a very big difference between thinking about something and actually acting on those thoughts. The barrier between thought and action is like a doorway to a whole different world and once you go through it you're changed in ways that just thinking could never change you.


----------



## Truthseeker1

carmen ohio said:


> True, Matt, but what we Americans consider being _"forceful,"_ you Brits call being _"rude."_
> 
> Maybe we should have a separate forum for forceful/rude people.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> But not really.


Forget a "safe space" for WSs - we need a "safe space" for people who just let it fly.....


----------



## Dude007

So mj, which of your APs was the worst person? Which of the 5 years as a ww were the worst skank and which of the 5 were you only slightly skanky if at all? Judging yourself should be easy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EI

heatherknows said:


> i agree. If a ws posts here then obviously they know that something isn't good and wants help. Maybe they're not ready to let the affair go or tell their spouse but posting here is the first step in ending the affair. They needed to be treated carefully to show them that verbalizing the truth is a good thing. By attacking them you are sending them back into the arms of the affair partner where they can feel safe and wanted and that's where tam fails. *if members can validate the ws feelings without condoning the cheating then change can happen*.


*This!!!* Which, by the way, is exactly what my incredibly, amazing husband did for me! Well, that, and so much more. And, according to TAM, I know that he's supposed to be miserable, but he doesn't know that, because he doesn't read TAM, anymore. He thinks we're deliriously happy, and blissfully in love. I think so, too. Today, we're celebrating his 51st birthday. 

There were a good number of people, here, who tried to break me down when I first posted my story on TAM. A few of them did a pretty good job. All but one of those people are no longer posting on TAM, and I had nothing to do with their departure. They called it 2 X 4's, tough love, etc. None, and I mean none, of their verbal bashing, demoralizing, and demeaning words contributed one positive thing to the success of our reconciliation. Those who sought to understand our story, and those who validated the feelings that we each were experiencing truly helped us put our marriage back together. We owe them a debt of gratitude that we can never repay. 

We are 3 1/2 years into R, and we are truly blissfully in love.


----------



## carmen ohio

EleGirl said:


> I think that a lot of WS who could be helped are driven off TAM because attacks are piled on page after page . . .


From the threads I've followed, when this happens it is usually because the WS either refuses to accept his or her responsibility for cheating and tries to justify it in some way.

When WSs accept responsibility for what they've done, I think most people here give them a fair hearing and try to help them. In fact, when WSs are genuinely remorseful, many people here actually rout for their BSs to forgive them and are saddened when this doesn't happen.

Yes, there are some whose posts are unnecessarily vitriolic. That's what you moderators should look out for and discourage.


----------



## carmen ohio

Anon Pink said:


> . . . 1. Who gets to decide what amount of remorse is appropriate? Hint, not you.
> 2. Who gets to decide at what level of awareness a ws must demonstrate in order to be treated with a modicum of respect. Again, not you.


AP, let me turn that around for you:

1. Who gets to decide what degree of skepticism of a WS's sincerity and remorsefullness is appropriate?
2. Who gets to decide what level of tolerance for infidelity a bs must demonstrate in order to be allowed to post on TAM/CWI.

Given that this is an open forum in the true sense of the term, not you but then not me, either. The moderators decide.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dude007 said:


> Because no one lives in absolutes. I'm sure some betrayed(Hip) folks here have done things in their lives that might seem heinous to some. Therefore, NO ONE can pass judgement. Can you divorce your cheating spouse, sure, that's your NUCLEAR option and the ULTIMATE HAMMER. Judging on the other hand, I think not..DUDE


What a crock!

Just because you've done something wrong doesn't mean you can't call out someone else for doing something wrong. You have kids, Dude007. Are you telling me you've never scolded them because you, too, have done things you shouldn't have?

Every judge, every prosecutor and every juror who ever lived has done things they shouldn't have. Does that disqualify them from performing their duties? Of course not.

Western society is drowning because of this stupid notion that we shouldn't _"judge"_ each other. The truth is that, without judgment, society begins to unravels and, if it doesn't reward those who do right and punish those who do wrong, society collapses.

If you screw up, you should expect someone to call you out on it -- i.e., to _"judge"_ you -- and, if what I did was seriously wrong, you should expect to suffer consequences. Complaining that no one has the right to judge you is nothing more than a lame excuse offered by people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions.


----------



## MJJEAN

Dude007 said:


> So mj, which of your APs was the worst person? Which of the 5 years as a ww were the worst skank and which of the 5 were you only slightly skanky if at all? Judging yourself should be easy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It actually is kind of easy to judge myself. Like I said, I knew what I was doing.

Which AP was the worst person? Guy named Tom. Total douche. 

The "worst skanky" years would have been year 1. That's the year I had the highest number of AP's and at one point was seeing two OM at the same time.

The "least skanky" year would have been the last one. By then, I was sick of casual sex. It had become unsatisfying. And without having affairs to distract and pacify me, I couldn't see staying with my ex. I told my ex I was going to leave him, he begged and guilt tripped me, I agreed to give up affairs for a year. I ended up having sex with a friend twice a few weeks into the agreement. Then nothing for about 10 more months. Just as the year was about to end, I met my final AP and we've been together ever since.


----------



## Truthseeker1

carmen ohio said:


> What a crock!
> 
> Just because you've done something wrong doesn't mean you can't call out someone else for doing something wrong. You have kids, Dude007. Are you telling me you've never scolded them because you, too, have done things you shouldn't have?
> 
> Every judge, every prosecutor and every juror who ever lived has done things they shouldn't have. Does that disqualify them from performing their duties? Of course not.
> 
> Western society is drowning because of this stupid notion that we shouldn't _"judge"_ each other. The truth is that, without judgment, society begins to unravels and, if it doesn't reward those who do right and punish those who do wrong, society collapses.
> 
> *If you screw up, you should expect someone to call you out on it -- i.e., to "judge" you -- and, if what I did was seriously wrong, you should expect to suffer consequences. Complaining that no one has the right to judge you is nothing more than a lame excuse offered by people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions.*


----------



## Heatherknows

carmen ohio said:


> If you screw up, you should expect someone to call you out on it -- i.e., to _"judge"_ you -- and, if what I did was seriously wrong, you should expect to suffer consequences. Complaining that no one has the right to judge you is nothing more than a lame excuse offered by people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions.


But before you start to tell a WS how horrible they are you need to think. Why is a WS posting on a pro-marriage forum? Nobody is forcing the WS to post here and disclose that info. They could post on a pro-affair site where people will say "good job." They post here because they want to stop. They are taking the FIRST step and that is very hard. The last thing they need is a bunch of lunatics typing nasty crap just to make them feel humiliated. It's cruel and unproductive. If a BS is triggered by a WS's confession they need to step away from the computer and deal with their own stuff.


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> But before you start to tell a WS how horrible they are you need to think. Why is a WS posting on a pro-marriage forum? Nobody is forcing the WS to post here and disclose that info. They could post on a pro-affair site where people will say "good job." They post here because they want to stop. They are taking the FIRST step and that is very hard. The last thing they need is a bunch of lunatics typing nasty crap just to make them feel humiliated. It's cruel and unproductive. If a BS is triggered by a WS's confession they need to step away from the computer and deal with their own stuff.


Honestly, I think a lot of WS's who post here are completely blindsided by the negative reactions. I think a lot of them have fully rationalized and justified their actions in their own minds, and have bought into the societal idea of not judging others as a way of coping with their own behavior, and have fully absolved themselves of any wrong doing. Of course they start by trying to say the right things... "I know what I did was wrong..." and then there is the "but..."


----------



## Truthseeker1

samyeagar said:


> Honestly, I think a lot of WS's who post here are completely blindsided by the negative reactions. I think a lot of them have fully rationalized and justified their actions in their own minds, and have bought into the societal idea of not judging others as a way of coping with their own behavior, and have fully absolved themselves of any wrong doing. Of course they start by trying to say the right things... "I know what I did was wrong..." and then there is the "but..."


They are looking for a form of validation for their actions - my spouse did x so I cheated - had my spouse done y I'd be faithful. Now I'm not advocating name calling and using nasty terms but a terse reaction to their search for validation is warranted in many cases. Many cheaters never take 100% responsibility for their affair.


----------



## Dude007

MJJEAN said:


> It actually is kind of easy to judge myself. Like I said, I knew what I was doing.
> 
> Which AP was the worst person? Guy named Tom. Total douche.
> 
> The "worst skanky" years would have been year 1. That's the year I had the highest number of AP's and at one point was seeing two OM at the same time.
> 
> The "least skanky" year would have been the last one. By then, I was sick of casual sex. It had become unsatisfying. And without having affairs to distract and pacify me, I couldn't see staying with my ex. I told my ex I was going to leave him, he begged and guilt tripped me, I agreed to give up affairs for a year. I ended up having sex with a friend twice a few weeks into the agreement. Then nothing for about 10 more months. Just as the year was about to end, I met my final AP and we've been together ever since.


MJ

You have won me over to your side of the argument. I can't believe I'm judging for the first time in my life here on TAM. YOU ARE ONE SKANKY LADY!!!! HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF??!! Did you personally name all those Penises you saw over the years??!!! DUDE


----------



## MJJEAN

Dude007 said:


> MJ
> 
> You have won me over to your side of the argument. I can't believe I'm judging for the first time in my life here on TAM. YOU ARE ONE SKANKY LADY!!!! HOW DO YOU LIVE WITH YOURSELF??!! Did you personally name all those Penises you saw over the years??!!! DUDE


I knew what I was doing was wrong. I knew I'd be judged for my actions by others and myself. I've never done anything without thinking of the consequences and being willing to accept them. For me, the pleasure was well worth the pain, so to speak.

There isn't a single WS that wasn't aware that infidelity is considered unacceptable and that they'd be censured by society for it. If you knowingly step outside society's rules, you set yourself up to be judged. You don't get to be all shocked, surprised, and butthurt when someone actually judges you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dude007

And you get to use really cool phrases like "ButtHurt"..No betrayed spouse would ever use that term....DUDE


----------



## Dude007

carmen ohio said:


> What a crock!
> 
> Just because you've done something wrong doesn't mean you can't call out someone else for doing something wrong. You have kids, Dude007. Are you telling me you've never scolded them because you, too, have done things you shouldn't have?
> 
> Every judge, every prosecutor and every juror who ever lived has done things they shouldn't have. Does that disqualify them from performing their duties? Of course not.
> 
> Western society is drowning because of this stupid notion that we shouldn't _"judge"_ each other. The truth is that, without judgment, society begins to unravels and, if it doesn't reward those who do right and punish those who do wrong, society collapses.
> 
> If you screw up, you should expect someone to call you out on it -- i.e., to _"judge"_ you -- and, if what I did was seriously wrong, you should expect to suffer consequences. Complaining that no one has the right to judge you is nothing more than a lame excuse offered by people who don't want to be held accountable for their actions.


I doubt most people spend as much time judging themselves as they do others, but maybe I'm wrong.(Doubtful) DUDE


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> And you get to use really cool phrases like "ButtHurt"..No betrayed spouse would ever use that term....DUDE



I use it all the time.


----------



## Wolf1974

MJJEAN said:


> I knew what I was doing was wrong. I knew I'd be judged for my actions by others and myself. I've never done anything without thinking of the consequences and being willing to accept them. For me, the pleasure was well worth the pain, so to speak.
> 
> There isn't a single *WS* that wasn't aware that infidelity is considered *unacceptable* and that they'd be censured by society for it. If you knowingly step outside society's rules, you set yourself up to be judged. You don't get to be all shocked, surprised, and butthurt when someone actually judges you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep not true. Just have to meet my X wife. Also see plenty WS here that saw nothing wrong with what they were doing. The poster who was cheating on her husband but staying with him because he financially supported her comes to mind


----------



## Dude007

GusPolinski said:


> I use it all the time.


Again, its HIP to be betrayed!! DUDE


----------



## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> Honestly, I think a lot of WS's who post here are completely blindsided by the negative reactions. I think a lot of them have fully rationalized and justified their actions in their own minds, and have bought into the societal idea of not judging others as a way of coping with their own behavior, and have fully absolved themselves of any wrong doing. Of course they start by trying to say the right things... "I know what I did was wrong..." and then there is the "but..."


OK. I can tell you from my own experience. I had very sexual conversations with one man online in the past. Very inappropriate but very arousing. I wanted to stop but I wanted to keep the feeling. Couldn't stop AND keep the feeling. So I tried to figure out how I could continue to do it and not feel like what I was doing was bad. I was at step one. It took time to come to the realization that I had to stop completely or leave my husband. That was step 15 or so, not step one. If you want a WS to go from Step one to Step two you cannot kick the crap out of them. It doesn't work.


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> OK. I can tell you from my own experience. I had very sexual conversations with one man online in the past. Very inappropriate but very arousing. I wanted to stop but I wanted to keep the feeling. Couldn't stop AND keep the feeling. So I tried to figure out how I could continue to do it and not feel like what I was doing was bad. I was at step one. It took time to come to the realization that I had to stop completely or leave my husband. That was step 15 or so, not step one. *If you want a WS to go from Step one to Step two you cannot kick the crap out of them. It doesn't work*.


Nor can the WS move from step one to step two until they drop all rationalizations. Most are not capable of doing that on their own.


----------



## Dude007

Heather, 

Go betrayed, you get to be HIP and COOL and pass judgement on all the wayward losers of the world. You get to be in "the club" if you will. You can get 20 likes to every post you make about how terrible your experience has been with waywards(both your ex, your familial infidelities, etc). Like I said, ITS NOW HIP TO BE BETRAYED!!! We should design TSHIRT "Straight out of Betrayal" DUDE


----------



## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> Nor can the WS move from step one to step two until they drop all rationalizations. Most are not capable of doing that on their own.


I think breaking an affair: EA, PA, Online affair etc. is exactly like breaking an addiction. I don't feel affairs are about true love or soul mates or any of that stuff. I think it's a grasping to fulfill an unmet need and it does work for a while like most drugs. To get to Step two one might need to keep some "rationalizations" in order to continue to head down the right path. It's different for everyone but most people need to leave the "affair fog" slowly in order to stay out of it completely.


----------



## Heatherknows

Dude007 said:


> Heather,
> 
> Go betrayed, you get to be HIP and COOL and pass judgement on all the wayward losers of the world. You get to be in "the club" if you will. You can get 20 likes to every post you make about how terrible your experience has been with waywards(both your ex, your familial infidelities, etc). Like I said, ITS NOW HIP TO BE BETRAYED!!! We should design TSHIRT "Straight out of Betrayal" DUDE


I do think it's horrible to be betrayed but there comes a time when you need to move past the hurt and anger or your life will be all about hurt and anger.


----------



## Dude007

Heatherknows said:


> I do think it's horrible to be betrayed but there comes a time when you need to move past the hurt and anger or your life will be all about hurt and anger.


And MAYBE, just MAYBE, some of the experience is actually humorous if one thinks about it in a compartmentalized way. DUDE


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> I think breaking an affair: EA, PA, Online affair etc. is exactly like breaking an addiction. I don't feel affairs are about true love or soul mates or any of that stuff. *I think it's a grasping to fulfill an unmet need* and it does work for a while like most drugs. To get to Step two one might need to keep some "rationalizations" in order to continue to head down the right path. It's different for everyone but most people need to leave the "affair fog" slowly in order to stay out of it completely.


That is one of the most common rationalizations. I suppose for some people, they could have a need to be involved with someone else while in a relationship. That the actual high and fulfillment comes from the secrecy, and that can't be filled if they are single and unattached.


----------



## samyeagar

Dude007 said:


> And MAYBE, just MAYBE, some of the experience is actually humorous if one thinks about it in a compartmentalized way. DUDE


This, I can't sort of agree with. Seeing what my ex-wife is putting her OM through...she still won't get a job, he is having to sell his house, is way behind in his own child support, had his own vehicle repossessed while continuing to pay for her new one, she is ruining him financially, and the guy still asked her to marry him. I think it's pretty damned funny...he is reaping the fruits of having an affair with the wrong woman, who had a husband who wouldn't tolerate it.


----------



## Dude007

samyeagar said:


> This, I can't sort of agree with. Seeing what my ex-wife is putting her OM through...she still won't get a job, he is having to sell his house, is way behind in his own child support, had his own vehicle repossessed while continuing to pay for her new one, she is ruining him financially, and the guy still asked her to marry him. I think it's pretty damned funny...he is reaping the fruits of having an affair with the wrong woman, who had a husband who wouldn't tolerate it.


Welcome to the land of the healed!!! DUDE


----------



## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> That is one of the most common rationalizations. I suppose for some people, they could have a need to be involved with someone else while in a relationship. That the actual high and fulfillment comes from the secrecy, and that can't be filled if they are single and unattached.


True enough. The forbidden is exciting.


----------



## Dude007

Yeah it is, real exciting!! Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Heatherknows

Dude007 said:


> Yeah it is, real exciting!! Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


At first it's exciting. Then it becomes another irritating problem that you have to solve.


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> True enough. The forbidden is exciting.


This is where the predatory aspect of the WS comes in. Their partner needs to be unaware in order for them to indulge, thus leading to a completely untenable situation in the long run.


----------



## carmen ohio

Heatherknows said:


> But before you start to tell a WS how horrible they are you need to think. Why is a WS posting on a pro-marriage forum? Nobody is forcing the WS to post here and disclose that info. They could post on a pro-affair site where people will say "good job." They post here because they want to stop. They are taking the FIRST step and that is very hard. The last thing they need is a bunch of lunatics typing nasty crap just to make them feel humiliated. It's cruel and unproductive. If a BS is triggered by a WS's confession they need to step away from the computer and deal with their own stuff.


Dear Heatherknows,

I've read quite a number of WS threads here and they generally fall into one of three categories:



WSs who are genuinely remorseful for what they have done and are seeking advice about how to save their marriages;
WSs who, while demonstrating a degree of remorse and claiming to want advice on what to do, can't quite bring themselves to admit that they are entirely responsible for what they have done but, instead, insist that their BS failed them in some manner or that there is some other reason that explains and at least partially justifies their actions; and
WSs you pretend to be remorseful but who are just using their thread as a kind of cover for placating their BS or even for continuing their affair.

The problem one has in responding to WS threads is that, initially, it is often not clear in which category the WS properly belongs. The harsh responses actually serve a purpose at the outset, as they help to identify which of the WS are genuinely sorry, which don't fully understand the gravity of their actions and which are mainly just blowing smoke.

The harsh responses also can be useful in pushing a WS who doesn't quite get it to finally accept his or her responsibility for the affair.

I would agree that some posters overreact and express their often valid skepticism in excessively vitriolic language. IMO, it is the moderators' (admittedly thankless) job to control this. I would also point out that, once a WS has demonstrated her _bona fides_, other posters usually come to her aid when she is unfairly denounced.

What sets TAM/CWI apart from a lot of other infidelity help websites is the honesty and directness of the exchanges. My concern with yours and a lot of the other views expressed on this thread is that, in the well-meaning rush to tone down the harshness of the language that posters sometimes use, posters will be discouraged from speaking their minds, they will stop calling things like they see them and, as a result, the site will lose much of its effectiveness.

Could some people be more polite? Of course. Does the fact that they are not prevent waywards who are genuinely remorseful and desirous of changing from getting help here? I don't believe so.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dude007 said:


> I doubt most people spend as much time judging themselves as they do others, but maybe I'm wrong.(Doubtful) DUDE


I agree. But that's a reason for well-meaning people to call others out for their bad behavior, rather than the other way around.

_"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."_ (Edmund Burke)


----------



## Dude007

carmen ohio said:


> I agree. But that's a reason for well-meaning people to call others out for their bad behavior, rather than the other way around.
> 
> _"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."_ (Edmund Burke)


"Let He who is WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE"

"Don't JUDGE Lest You be JUDGED"

and my personal Favorite “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” THE LORD ALMIGHTY


----------



## samyeagar

Dude007 said:


> "Let He who is WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE"
> 
> "Don't JUDGE Lest You be JUDGED"
> 
> and my personal Favorite “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” THE LORD ALMIGHTY


While I understand the sentiment of those phrases, I think they are largely useless platitudes, and a load of crap. At least how some people try to apply them...self absolution and rationalization, which is a large part of a cheaters makeup. Someone else's sin does NOT diminish your own.

When faced with consequences, pointing ones finger at someone else is the epitome of rationalization, and blame shifting.


----------



## Dude007

It actually says this, "CLEAN YOUR OWN **** UP BEFORE TELLING ME TO CLEAN MY **** UP!!" then its says "DONT BEAT THE **** OUT OF SOMEONE WHO HAS WRONGED YOU OR YOUR FAMILY, LET ME TAKE CARE OF HIS ASS(wink wink)!!"


----------



## samyeagar

Dude007 said:


> It actually says this, "CLEAN YOUR OWN **** UP BEFORE TELLING ME TO CLEAN MY **** UP!!" then its says "DONT BEAT THE **** OUT OF SOMEONE WHO HAS WRONGED YOU OR YOUR FAMILY, LET ME TAKE CARE OF HIS ASS(wink wink)!!"


And that is all about abdicating ones personal responsibility and accountability.

Just for example...let's say someone is a chronic speeder...driving 80 in a 65, and they tell their kid to slow down, obey the speed limit. Does the fact that the parent speeds invalidate the need for the kid to obey the limit? Does it excuse them? Will it get them out of a ticket?

The damage the whole "don't cast stones" mindset does is that it makes a lot of people think that because someone else did it, it is ok for them to do it too, when the two things are completely mutually exclusive.

That leads to the whole hypocrite thing...just because someone else is a hypocrite about something does not invalidate it.


----------



## Rookie4

EI said:


> *This!!!* Which, by the way, is exactly what my incredibly, amazing husband did for me! Well, that, and so much more. And, according to TAM, I know that he's supposed to be miserable, but he doesn't know that, because he doesn't read TAM, anymore. He thinks we're deliriously happy, and blissfully in love. I think so, too. Today, we're celebrating his 51st birthday.
> 
> There were a good number of people, here, who tried to break me down when I first posted my story on TAM. A few of them did a pretty good job. All but one of those people are no longer posting on TAM, and I had nothing to do with their departure. They called it 2 X 4's, tough love, etc. None, and I mean none, of their verbal bashing, demoralizing, and demeaning words contributed one positive thing to the success of our reconciliation. Those who sought to understand our story, and those who validated the feelings that we each were experiencing truly helped us put our marriage back together. We owe them a debt of gratitude that we can never repay.
> 
> We are 3 1/2 years into R, and we are truly blissfully in love.


Here is a prime example of what CAN happen on TAM, if posters exhibit some courtesy and kindness. I have been talking to EI for a few years and even though we disagree about reconciliation, we continue to maintain our friendship and respect for each other. EI knows that the decisions I have taken in my life, were not taken without deep reflection, and I know the same about her and the decisions that she and her husband have taken. I think we have both learned from each other, and that knowledge has helped us both through the crises we were facing. EI is a WS (former) but there is no poster I respect more.


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> AP, let me turn that around for you:
> 
> 1. Who gets to decide what degree of skepticism of a WS's sincerity and remorsefullness is appropriate?
> 2. Who gets to decide what level of tolerance for infidelity a bs must demonstrate in order to be allowed to post on TAM/CWI.
> 
> Given that this is an open forum in the true sense of the term, not you but then not me, either. The moderators decide.


This is fundamentally flawed reasoning. The only person who gets to decide what amount of remorse is appropriate......is the WS and the WS's own BS, certainly not a bunch of strangers on a website. Also, the only person who gets to decide what is an appropriate level of skepticism, is the individual poster him/her self. Neither of these have any bearing whatsoever on being civil and respectful. You cannot make excuses for the actions of a WS, but you cannot make excuses for rude and offensive posting, either. ALL posters, WS and BS alike, should be treated exactly the same.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> I use it all the time.


Actually this is a new one on me. I know "butt ugly", "butthead" and "butt stupid", but not this one.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Yep not true. Just have to meet my X wife. Also see plenty WS here that saw nothing wrong with what they were doing. The poster who was cheating on her husband but staying with him because he financially supported her comes to mind


Sorry , but this is bull. The VAST majority of WS posters have come here for help. As somebody else pointed out, there are other sites where cheaters can go for validation. TAM is know as a site where cheating is discouraged.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dude007 said:


> "Let He who is WITHOUT SIN, CAST THE FIRST STONE"
> 
> "Don't JUDGE Lest You be JUDGED"
> 
> and my personal Favorite “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.” THE LORD ALMIGHTY


Regarding the first quote, see https://www.facebook.com/pages.InGODweTRUST/posts/1525520081003974.

Regarding the second quote, see "Judge not, lest you be judged": Misinterpreted Bible Passages #3 | Jason Staples.

The third quote is simply irrelevant do this discussion. We are not talking about acts of vengeance but whether and, if so, how people should call out others for their wrong-doing.

I find it ironic that you quote the Bible to support your contention that people shouldn't judge each other. In fact, one of the most fundamental themes of both Old and New Testament teaching is that God abhors sin and demands that it be exposed, acknowledged and atoned for. To suggest that the Bible tells people to ignore or remain silent in the face others' wrong-doing is a gross misrepresentation of what it says.


----------



## Dude007

This response gave me "butthurt" hope I'm using in the right context
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

This whole "tough love" "2x4" stuff is of very little use. My ex wife's IC told me that it is only effective the first few times you use it. After a couple of encounters, the person will either leave or become desensitized to it. Like the boy who cried wolf. 
I believe this. When I was a kid, I used to get spanked a lot (face it, I was always in some kind of mischief) After a while, spanking didn't frighten me as much as it did , at first.


----------



## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> This is where the predatory aspect of the WS comes in. Their partner needs to be unaware in order for them to indulge, thus leading to a completely untenable situation in the long run.


I'm not sure "predatory" is the right word. Was Eve a predator when she was tempted by the apple?


----------



## Dude007

Fire and brimstone baby!!!! That'll teach then waywards
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> This is fundamentally flawed reasoning. The only person who gets to decide what amount of remorse is appropriate......is the WS and the WS's own BS, certainly not a bunch of strangers on a website. Also, the only person who gets to decide what is an appropriate level of skepticism, is the individual poster him/her self. Neither of these have any bearing whatsoever on being civil and respectful. You cannot make excuses for the actions of a WS, but you cannot make excuses for rude and offensive posting, either. ALL posters, WS and BS alike, should be treated exactly the same.


You misunderstand my first statement, I assume because I did not state it as well as I might have. Let me try again:

_1. Who gets to decide what degree of skepticism of a WS's sincerity and remorsefullness is appropriate for a poster to express?

_The problem you've identified boils down to: who gets to decide what is _"civil and respectful"_? The point of my post is that this is for the moderators to decide.


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> Fire and brimstone baby!!!! That'll teach then waywards


Sooo... you make reference to specific biblical principles, verses from the Bible, etc, and then, once called out for functionally misquoting the Bible, you change tactics.

Well played.


----------



## Dude007

I'm judging everything civil and disrespectful on here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Heatherknows said:


> I'm not sure "predatory" is the right word. Was Eve a predator when she was tempted by the apple?


No, but she was complicit in tempting Adam.


----------



## Heatherknows

GusPolinski said:


> No, but she was complicit in tempting Adam.


Perhaps.

It's good they ate the apple after a while they'd run out of things to do in the Garden of Eden. 0


----------



## Dude007

Yeah too many goodie two shoes in Eden
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> You misunderstand my first statement, I assume because I did not state it as well as I might have. Let me try again:
> 
> _1. Who gets to decide what degree of skepticism of a WS's sincerity and remorsefullness is appropriate for a poster to express?
> 
> _The problem you've identified boils down to: who gets to decide what is _"civil and respectful"_? The point of my post is that this is for the moderators to decide.


OK, I get what you're saying.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry , but this is bull. The VAST majority of WS posters have come here for help. As somebody else pointed out, there are other sites where cheaters can go for validation. TAM is know as a site where cheating is discouraged.


I never said it wasn't discouraged and it should be. What I said was that's some WS here justify that it is ok to cheat. Read what I actually said before you post nonsense


----------



## Heatherknows

Wolf1974 said:


> I never said it wasn't discouraged and it should be. What I said was that's some WS here justify that it is ok to cheat. Read what I actually said before you post nonsense


WS bashing goes on here because most of the posters are BS. It's typical gang/mob mentality. It's one thing to try and help a Ws it's another thing to get your "revenge" on a someone who is reaching out for help. Maybe they aren't reaching out in a way you think is "just" but still they are reaching out for healthy alternatives to fulfill unmet needs.


----------



## Dude007

Heatherknows said:


> WS bashing goes on here because most of the posters are BS. It's typical gang/mob mentality. It's one thing to try and help a Ws it's another thing to get your "revenge" on a someone who is reaching out for help. Maybe they aren't reaching out in a way you think is "just" but still they are reaching out for healthy alternatives to fulfill unmet needs.


Wooooooohhhh there Cowgirl, the Sheriff and his Posse are about to round up and chase you out of town!!!! HA Are you saying some on here may be stuck in the resentment/anger phase still? DUDE


----------



## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> WS bashing goes on here because most of the posters are BS. It's typical gang/mob mentality. It's one thing to try and help a Ws it's another thing to get your "revenge" on a someone who is reaching out for help. Maybe they aren't reaching out in a way you think is "just" but still they are reaching out for healthy alternatives to fulfill unmet needs.


Sorry but I have been here for years reading these forums and I don't see this is typical at all. I have in fact seen WS come here legitimately ask for help and receive it, I have done so myself and happy to do so. If you can own your **** and not blame shift or justify that cheating was ok you can get help here. Yes 100% I have seen fly the the night posters with just a few post come on and vent and are subsequently banned and rightfully so. That is not the typical or the "norm". What is far more the norm is 
Blame shifting
Denial
No accountability 
Or validation seekers that cheating is ok 

Sometimes they will listen and sometimes they don't. But when you are posting on an open forum on a hot button topic such as cheating you can expect that many posters are not going to say, hey it's ok you can cheat all you want.


----------



## Dude007

Why is it a "hot button topic"? I think thats the real question here because it does seem to stir the bee hive.


----------



## Wolf1974

Dude007 said:


> Why is it a "hot button topic"? I think thats the real question here because it does seem to stir the bee hive.


Pretty common sense why. In this forum infidelity is what represents the end of the marriage.

Imagine if you had a forum on domestic violence help and prevention. Would be pretty loaded up on the victims of DV. Then someone comes along in that forum and expresses not only was him hitting his wife ok, but she of course drove him to it. That would go over real well. Same thing here. So in that medium it's going to be a hot button topic take same guy who comes along and says I hit my wife, I know it was wrong and I want help to improve. Some are going to overreact because they are emotionally tied to the subject matter. Otherwise will give the benefit of the doubt and try and help...same happens here on this subject.


----------



## MattMatt

carmen ohio said:


> True, Matt, but what we Americans consider being _"forceful,"_ you Brits call being _"rude."_
> 
> Maybe we should have a separate forum for forceful/rude people.
> 
> Just kidding.
> 
> But not really.


We have forceful, too. Speaking your mind is the designation. Though what if someone has no mind to speak? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dude007

Wolf1974 said:


> Some are going to overreact because they are emotionally tied to the subject matter.


Thank you!!!! You just save me about 100 posts...DUDE


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> Thank you!!!! You just save me about 100 posts...DUDE


If only we could save you all of them.


----------



## Dude007

Nah, everyone needs a Nemesis, otherwise nothing but betrayed on here cheering each other on w TSHIRT slogans "Chalk ONE UP TO THE BETRAYED!!!" HA DUDE


----------



## MJJEAN

Dude007 said:


> And you get to use really cool phrases like "ButtHurt"..No betrayed spouse would ever use that term....DUDE


Umm, I've been a BW and I used the term "butthurt"! :laugh:


----------



## Dude007

MJJEAN said:


> Umm, I've been a BW and I used the term "butthurt"! :laugh:


Oh so it works for both!!! hehe DUDE


----------



## MJJEAN

Rookie4 said:


> Actually this is a new one on me. I know "butt ugly", "butthead" and "butt stupid", but not this one.


I learned butthurt from back when I was a hardcore gamer. Then I learned phrases like "Who kicked sand in your vag?" and more! 



carmen ohio said:


> The third quote is simply irrelevant do this discussion. We are not talking about acts of vengeance but whether and, if so, how people should call out others for their wrong-doing.
> 
> I find it ironic that you quote the Bible to support your contention that people shouldn't judge each other. In fact, one of the most fundamental themes of both Old and New Testament teaching is that God abhors sin and demands that it be exposed, acknowledged and atoned for. To suggest that the Bible tells people to ignore or remain silent in the face others' wrong-doing is a gross misrepresentation of what it says.


The Catholic Church teaches that calling someone out on their sins is actually a spiritual act of mercy. 

In the early Church, Confession was done publicly and so was Penance. And by publicly, I mean in the town square with everyone you've ever known listening. And by Penance, I mean real, hardcore, penance!



Dude007 said:


> This response gave me "butthurt" hope I'm using in the right context
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Depends. If you're actually upset, no. If you're just kind of whiny and sort of perturbed for no real reason, yes!



Dude007 said:


> Yeah too many goodie two shoes in Eden
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, Eden. The first example of peer pressure and/or the power of the p*ssy!


----------



## Heatherknows

Wolf1974 said:


> But when you are posting on an open forum on a hot button topic such as cheating you can expect that many posters are not going to say, hey it's ok you can cheat all you want.



Do you really think that WS's want people on a pro-marriage forum to say "it's ok you can cheat all you want." My guess is no. It's normal to do some blame shifting and taking full accountability is difficult. At step one there is grief and fear about ending an affair. Like it or not an affair involves another person and saying goodbye to that person (even if the person was yucky) is hard.


----------



## Dude007

Yep, butthurt, betrayed and wayward!!! The triple crown of TAM

Luckily no one really takes life too seriously...Dude
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> Do you really think that WS's want people on a pro-marriage forum to say "it's ok you can cheat all you want." My guess is no. It's normal to do some blame shifting and taking full accountability is difficult. At step one there is grief and fear about ending an affair. Like it or not an affair involves another person and saying goodbye to that person (even if the person was yucky) is hard.


And see for me, it's all this kind of crap right here that I would not and did not even consider reconciliation.


----------



## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> Do you really think that WS's want people on a pro-marriage forum to say "it's ok you can cheat all you want." My guess is no. It's normal to do some blame shifting and taking full accountability is difficult. At step one there is grief and fear about ending an affair. Like it or not an affair involves another person and saying goodbye to that person (even if the person was yucky) is hard.


Again put in some more time here and you will see it. Yes it is very normal here for WS to Blame shift hence getting called on it. And yes taking full accountability is difficult which is why those who accept responsibility are rarely ever shouted down as I said. Those who do act inappropriate are often banned quickly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Heatherknows

samyeagar said:


> And see for me, it's all this kind of crap right here that I would not and did not even consider reconciliation.


From what you've said about your ex-wife she sounds like a nightmare. IMHO you do seem to talk about her a lot which makes me think you're not really over her. But that is another issue. 

If your current wife cheated you might forgive her and consider reconciliation if she had enough qualities that you desired.


----------



## samyeagar

Heatherknows said:


> From what you've said about your ex-wife she sounds like a nightmare. IMHO you do seem to talk about her a lot which makes me think you're not really over her. But that is another issue.
> 
> If your current wife cheated you might forgive her and consider reconciliation if she had enough qualities that you desired.


I only talk about my ex wife from an experiential standpoint as a point of personal reference in these discussions. I assure you, I am quite over her. The cheating was simply the final straw. She is clinically diagnosed NPD, so yes, she was a nightmare.

I can also assure you that if my current wife cheated on me, we would be done. I would certainly forgive her, and quite readily too, but reconciliation would be entirety out of the question.


----------



## Dude007

Viva wayward piñata
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

samyeagar said:


> I can also assure you that if my current wife cheated on me, we would be done. I would certainly forgive her, and quite readily too, but reconciliation would be entirety out of the question.


There is something a lot of WS's seem to be confused by. They assume if they are forgiven, then they'll be staying together. They don't understand the concept of being forgiven, but still found unacceptable as a mate by the one who forgave them.


----------



## Wolf1974

MJJEAN said:


> There is something a lot of WS's seem to be confused by. They assume if they are forgiven, then they'll be staying together. They don't understand the concept of being forgiven, but still found unacceptable as a mate by the one who forgave them.


Sometimes one like isn't enough. Well
Stated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Whip Morgan

There is a Waywards only section at SI. Like anything on the internet, there is some good and some bad. I suspect it would be similar here if there was a Waywards only section. Of course, it would take time for users and rules to be established. It wouldn't be overnight.

Now, any negatives? Among other things, you'd see what is commonly discussed over at SI. Lot of talk about the "fog" and the fantasy aspect of affairs. I.E. "I thought I loved my AP, but I was wrong, that wasn't real love..." etc. All that trash.

There is a heavy theme there that the fog is real and all powerful, and that affairs, while the actions are real, are actually fantasy.

Well, its real, all of it. The fog isn't all powerful because it doesn't exist. It must make a cheater much better to say that he/she didn't really love AP because its "not real love", which is really a defense mechanism to hide behind rather than admitting they did/do infact love AP.

Not sure how bringing that here would help anyone.


----------



## LongWalk

Whip,

Of course it would help because betrayed spouse could read what wayward spouse were writing and better understand them.

If, for example, a betrayed husband was unable to reestablish a good sexual relationship with his WW in reconciliation, he could gain insight into his wife might be feeling. Probably whole phrases would pop up and the BS could say, "Yes, that's exactly what my spouse is saying, now I have a better idea what to do.

You can even read cheaters who are in good reconciliation encouraging those who are struggling, giving them tips to help them stop thinking of their AP.


----------



## Dude007

You can't love someone seeing them a total of 4 hours a week which is probably a generous account of the time spent on average w AP
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

MJJEAN said:


> There is something a lot of WS's seem to be confused by. They assume if they are forgiven, then they'll be staying together. They don't understand the concept of being forgiven, but still found unacceptable as a mate by the one who forgave them.


Forgivness for me is to stop allowing someone to live in your mind rent free...it is about moving on..it certainl does not gurantee anything beyond the fact that I'm feeling better...


----------



## samyeagar

MJJEAN said:


> There is something a lot of WS's seem to be confused by. They assume if they are forgiven, then they'll be staying together. They don't understand the concept of being forgiven, but still found unacceptable as a mate by the one who forgave them.


I suspect that a lot of people enter into reconciliation in hopes of achieving forgiveness only to find that once the hurt and anger is gone, there are no feelings left at all.


----------



## Dude007

samyeagar said:


> I suspect that a lot of people enter into reconciliation in hopes of achieving forgiveness only to find that once the hurt and anger is gone, there are no feelings left at all.


This is pretty profound and probably quite true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

samyeagar said:


> I suspect that a lot of people enter into reconciliation in hopes of achieving forgiveness only to find that once the hurt and anger is gone, there are no feelings left at all.


----------



## Dude007

I agree u hit the nail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> Nah, everyone needs a Nemesis, otherwise nothing but betrayed on here cheering each other on w TSHIRT slogans "Chalk ONE UP TO THE BETRAYED!!!" HA DUDE


There's this certain kid that I remember from grade school. I didn't have any classes w/ him, so I only ever saw him on the playground or on my way from one class to another. I didn't quite understand why or how at first, but it was pretty clear that he was "different".

Anyway, this kid was pretty loud, animated, and boisterous. Normally this wasn't an issue because he was he was more or less good-natured. He had his moments, though, and when he felt slighted, he could get pretty aggressive. I'd even say volatile.

It's because of this that he was in trouble a lot. Still, no one thought of him as a "nemesis", and the teachers generally went pretty easy on him.

Turns out he had Down's syndrome.


----------



## Dude007

Oh you da real smart fat boy, I remembers you too. Gus!! Ha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Dude007 said:


> Oh you da real smart fat boy, I remembers you too. Gus!! Ha


Yeah, I was a fat kid. I thinned out a bit, though. You could say I became a "lean, mean fightin' machine"...










Didn't get too thin, though.

Fattened back up, too.


----------



## 2asdf2

Wolf1974 said:


> I never said it wasn't discouraged and it should be. What I said was that's some WS here justify that it is ok to cheat. *Read what I actually said before you post nonsense*


This post is a good example. Disrespectful responses are made, shooting from the hip, without reflecting on how they will be received.

For recalcitrant BS and for all WS such treatment is commonplace, and very unhelpful.


----------



## Wolf1974

2asdf2 said:


> This post is a good example. Disrespectful responses are made, shooting from the hip, without reflecting on how they will be received.
> 
> For recalcitrant BS and for all WS such treatment is commonplace, and very unhelpful.


Was nothing disrespectful in what I said. He was putting words in my mouth I didn't say ...hence nonsense. 

And I was far more polite than I have received from him in past threads
So maybe, just maybe, those who are jumping up and down demanding to be heard should actually try listening to what others have to say as well. OP talks about wanting to learn things, awful hard to do when you have your mind closed to what others have to say.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I never said it wasn't discouraged and it should be. What I said was that's some WS here justify that it is ok to cheat. Read what I actually said before you post nonsense


No, you did not say that, you did not say SOME, you said PLENTY. It seems that I read your post better than you did. So who is really speaking nonsense?


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Sorry but I have been here for years reading these forums and I don't see this is typical at all. I have in fact seen WS come here legitimately ask for help and receive it, I have done so myself and happy to do so. If you can own your **** and not blame shift or justify that cheating was ok you can get help here. Yes 100% I have seen fly the the night posters with just a few post come on and vent and are subsequently banned and rightfully so. That is not the typical or the "norm". What is far more the norm is
> Blame shifting
> Denial
> No accountability
> Or validation seekers that cheating is ok
> 
> Sometimes they will listen and sometimes they don't. But when you are posting on an open forum on a hot button topic such as cheating you can expect that many posters are not going to say, hey it's ok you can cheat all you want.


This is completely untrue. the vast majority of WS's who have come here (and I've been here for a while also) do so to get help with their issues. Unrepentant WS's are very , very rare birds, and Wolf knows it. He is just trying to justify the rude behavior of some posters.


----------



## Rookie4

In point of fact, some of our best posters and those who are the leaders in advising WS's are former WS's themselves. EI , Affaircare and Mrs.Adams come to mind.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> This is completely untrue. the vast majority of WS's who have come here (and I've been here for a while also) do so to get help with their issues. Unrepentant WS's are very , very rare birds, and Wolf knows it. He is just trying to justify the rude behavior of some posters.


Example? Or is this more untrue claims ? And I never justify rude behavior and you know it I have even reported people going off on other posters so again don't make stuff up you know isn't true
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> No, you did not say that, you did not say SOME, you said PLENTY. It seems that I read your post better than you did. So who is really *speaking nonsense?*


*
*
Still you. You who are demanding respectful dialog and yet give none. You want to make a molehill out the the word use from plenty to some so be it. Your not fooling anyone ... I can give actual examples of WS who do not take accountability for what they did. But I will ask again since you always prefer to challenge instead of listen.. Can you give examples of posters hurling insults and put downs that aren't banned? I happen to think the mods do a good job and this section and will await these post after post examples since you say happens ALL the time


----------



## TeddieG

samyeagar said:


> I suspect that a lot of people enter into reconciliation in hopes of achieving forgiveness only to find that once the hurt and anger is gone, there are no feelings left at all.


Yes. Amazingly, and weirdly, I realize I have no feelings left for my h (STBXH) at all. It may be that I am just numb, but I've been through the pain, the anger, the understanding, the compassion for his mental issues, the empathy, the forgiveness, and I find that the well has run dry. I keep asking myself, what do I do now? It's because for the entire length of this thing I have gone from one feeling about him to another, cycling through them, learning to just recognize them when they emerge, acknowledging them and moving on, but no feelings left at all has been the most bewildering stage, yet I know it has the potential for the most forward-moving liberation in this deal yet.


----------



## Dude007

TeddieG said:


> Yes. Amazingly, and weirdly, I realize I have no feelings left for my h (STBXH) at all. It may be that I am just numb, but I've been through the pain, the anger, the understanding, the compassion for his mental issues, the empathy, the forgiveness, and I find that the well has run dry. I keep asking myself, what do I do now? It's because for the entire length of this thing I have gone from one feeling about him to another, cycling through them, learning to just recognize them when they emerge, acknowledging them and moving on, but no feelings left at all has been the most bewildering stage, yet I know it has the potential for the most forward-moving liberation in this deal yet.


Those are the cycles of grief and how you detach NATURALLY/HEALTHY...Go you!! DUDE

Then there are the feelings of ambivalence which are the hallmark of divorce. The path from the event of the separation to the final dissolution is rarely straight. Typically, it is a back and forth process with roller coaster emotions ranging from high to low and back again. This can be especially crazy making because it is scary and people feel out of control. Should we get back together? Should we stay apart? Are the changes your spouse has made lasting and will they be enough to allow the marriage to go on? Studies show that no matter how bad the marriage was, most people feel a persistent attachment to their former spouse. 



Next comes depression. The feelings of loss and fear can be extreme but they serve a
key purpose. They are emotions turned in on the Self. They force you to look at yourself, to face the aloneness, to confront the type of relationship you both created in the marriage, and to take responsibility for your part and stop laying all the blame on your spouse. This is the part of the journey where there is the most growth, if you allow it. 



After you have been able to express your feelings and grieve, you may come to the ending with a sense of quiet expectation. The future may be uncertain but the trust in yourself that you have gained from having made it through the passage will give you a growing sense of confidence in your ability to create the life you want for yourself (and your children). 



The second phase of the journey is the process of recovery.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> [/B]
> Still you. You who are demanding respectful dialog and yet give none. You want to make a molehill out the the word use from plenty to some so be it. Your not fooling anyone ... I can give actual examples of WS who do not take accountability for what they did. But I will ask again since you always prefer to challenge instead of listen.. Can you give examples of posters hurling insults and put downs that aren't banned? I happen to think the mods do a good job and this section and will await these post after post examples since you say happens ALL the time


Then give them, instead of saying you can. I have given three examples of Repentant WS's and so far you have given .......nothing. But , forget about it. Really I'm not going to bandy words with you. This thread was doing fine , until you came here with your insults and hate mongering. So I guess I will have to tune you out, rather than descend to your level. I truly hope that you will learn civil discourse at some point in time, but until then, I won't respond to your posts. Good day.


----------



## Rookie4

2asdf2 said:


> This post is a good example. Disrespectful responses are made, shooting from the hip, without reflecting on how they will be received.
> 
> For recalcitrant BS and for all WS such treatment is commonplace, and very unhelpful.


Wolf is another of those posters who like to surf the threads looking for places to insert their nasty comments. He has a problem with me, so will always be as rude as possible.


----------



## Pluto2

There's our Rookie, winning friends and influencing people.


----------



## Rookie4

OK, I will try again. Wolf, let's let bygones be bygones I am willing to discus anything with you as long as you are civil and polite. If you really want to enter into a discussion, and not just make snarky comments. I am perfectly willing to do so. How about it?


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Then give them, instead of saying you can. I have given three examples of Repentant WS's and so far you have given .......nothing. But , forget about it. Really I'm not going to bandy words with you. This thread was doing fine , until you came here with your insults and hate mongering. So I guess I will have to tune you out, rather than descend to your level. I truly hope that you will learn civil discourse at some point in time, but until then, I won't respond to your posts. Good day.


Yep that's what I thought. 


I have stated a perfect example in Zanne, guess that is overlooked but ok

And I loved your three examples of repentant WS but that is again NOT what I was asking for. But I do Agree with every one of them. Funny though how I have watched each of them call into account WS who don't take accountability here. So when they do it it's fine when I do it, because I'm a BS, I'm hurling insults and hate mongering? I would ask for examples but they don't exist cause I never have. 

People who have a conflicting view than you aren't insulting or hate mongering they just don't agree with you. Why you take that as such a personal challenge no idea but by all means ignore my posts if you will


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> This is completely untrue. the vast majority of WS's who have come here (and I've been here for a while also) do so to get help with their issues. *Unrepentant WS's are very , very rare birds*, and Wolf knows it. He is just trying to justify the rude behavior of some posters.


We must have different definitions of the word "unrepentant".


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> OK, I will try again. Wolf, let's let bygones be bygones I am willing to discus anything with you as long as you are civil and polite. If you really want to enter into a discussion, and not just make snarky comments. I am perfectly willing to do so. How about it?


I have been 

Disagreeing with you or asking for examples isn't being rude at all. It calls into question what you are stating here. So I will try one more time

Since you say that WS are insulted and hate mongered here all the time and ran off before getting help...that's what you are stating correct?

Please provide some examples of those threads where that happened and those who were hurling insults weren't banned please. All I'm asking for


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf is another of those posters who like to surf the threads looking for places to insert their nasty comments. He has a problem with me, so will always be as rude as possible.


I love how me, giving an opinion that doesn't line up with your opinions, is a nasty comment. :surprise:


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> I hope you understand , Arbitrator, that I am speaking in general, and not at you personally. I have always thought you were a very thoughtful and intelligent poster.
> I think you are like a lot of the other posters, Arbitrator, in than you want to know the reasons behind the actions.
> This is basically the motive for my starting the thread, in the first place. Not that I approve of WS's, or want to make it "easy' for them. *I just feel that you can get more flies with sugar than you can with castor oil. *
> For the most part, WS's come here to seek help with their issues. Very, very, VERY, few unrepentant WS's come to TAM. Probably less than 1% of the total WS's, which is probably less than 10% of the total posters on the CWI forums. So maybe 1/10th of a % ever come here to brag about their affair, or show disrespect to their spouse.
> By being courteous and kind, you have a far greater chance of getting useful information from them, than you would by insults and badmouthing. If I were a WS (and I'm not) I wouldn't give some of these posters, sh*t. Being a BS does not, automatically, grant a poster the right to be a di*k.


Oh, the irony.

Sweet, delicious irony...


----------



## oneMOreguy

LongWalk said:


> Whip,
> 
> *Of course it would help because betrayed spouse could read what wayward spouse were writing and better understand them.
> *
> If, for example, a betrayed husband was unable to reestablish a good sexual relationship with his WW in reconciliation, he could gain insight into his wife might be feeling. Probably whole phrases would pop up and the BS could say, "Yes, that's exactly what my spouse is saying, now I have a better idea what to do.
> 
> You can even read cheaters who are in good reconciliation *encouraging those who are struggling*, giving them tips to help them stop thinking of their AP.


......I hope you don't mind me highlighting a couple of areas that seem so important from my perspective. 

In addition, so many seem to be skipping over the reality that all of us, BS, WS, and in between, are not machines, and act in very human ways......which of course mean that we can find a way to screw things up pretty badly at times. Humans can be very complicated, especially when emotions and actions interact. It seems an oversimplification to just demonize WS.

WS who have learned from their errors could indeed help others who are struggling with their own emotions and actions, while they are still balancing on the border between appropriate and inappropriate.

I know for one that I wish that someone would have kicked my butt and explained the dangers of being a KISA to someone other than my spouse.......would have saved a painful learning curve for me.

Don't think WS really need their own subforum.........but I truly urge all to approach everyone with kindness..........you can be kind while hating their actions. That is how you influence persons to do better.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> We must have different definitions of the word "unrepentant".


Possibly so, Gus, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect your opinion. Also, I have never known you to be offensive and rude, to anybody. Except , of course, when you are being an a**hole. LOL


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Oh, the irony.
> 
> Sweet, delicious irony...


Not ironic , at all. Look back......you will find that I never started any brouhahas, but only defended my position.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Possibly so, Gus, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect your opinion. Also, I have never known you to be offensive and rude, to anybody. Except , of course, when you are being an a**hole. LOL


LOL. Keep reading.


----------



## Heatherknows

Whip Morgan said:


> There is a Waywards only section at SI. Like anything on the internet, there is some good and some bad. I suspect it would be similar here if there was a Waywards only section. Of course, it would take time for users and rules to be established. It wouldn't be overnight.
> 
> Now, any negatives? Among other things, you'd see what is commonly discussed over at SI. Lot of talk about the "fog" and the fantasy aspect of affairs. I.E. "I thought I loved my AP, but I was wrong, that wasn't real love..." etc. All that trash.
> 
> There is a heavy theme there that the fog is real and all powerful, and that affairs, while the actions are real, are actually fantasy.
> 
> Well, its real, all of it. The fog isn't all powerful because it doesn't exist. It must make a cheater much better to say that he/she didn't really love AP because its "not real love", which is really a defense mechanism to hide behind rather than admitting they did/do infact love AP.
> 
> Not sure how bringing that here would help anyone.



I don't know what SI is and it's better I don't since my goal is to one day refrain from all forums and spend more time chatting in real life. The fog does exist. It's what Helen Fisher explains in her description on brain chemistry. The beginning phases of romance and infatuation make your brain crazed with feel good chemicals. The affair isn't put to the "real life" test and hence stays romance based and foggy. I suppose some people do actually fall in love with their affair partners but that is rare.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I have been
> 
> Disagreeing with you or asking for examples isn't being rude at all. It calls into question what you are stating here. So I will try one more time
> 
> Since you say that WS are insulted and hate mongered here all the time and ran off before getting help...that's what you are stating correct?
> 
> Please provide some examples of those threads where that happened and those who were hurling insults weren't banned please. All I'm asking for


I have no idea who has been banned and why. But, in order to be fair, I will attempt to go back and find examples of posters and I will ask the mods to tell me why they were banned, as soon as you apologize for calling my opinion, "nonsense" and admit it was a rude remark.


----------



## Pluto2

Heatherknows said:


> I don't know what SI is and it's better I don't since my goal is to one day refrain from all forums and spend more time chatting in real life. The fog does exist. It's what Helen Fisher explains in her description on brain chemistry. The beginning phases of romance and infatuation make your brain crazed with feel good chemicals. The affair isn't put to the "real life" test and hence stays romance based and foggy. I suppose some people do actually fall in love with their affair partners but that is rare.


I don't doubt or dispute anything you've stated, I honestly don't. What I've always had a problem with is the supposition that SOMETIMES goes with the defense of the fog. Fog or not, every partner in a relationship is responsible for their actions, and the consequences that follow therefrom. Heck, even when my ex was having some psychotic episodes his therapist had to remind him that his illness sometimes helped explained his actions, but did not absolve him of the consequences of the pain his actions caused.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> LOL. Keep reading.


You mean...there's more. :surprise: I'm not sure the world is ready for it.:grin2:


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I have no idea who has been banned and why. But, in order to be fair, I will attempt to go back and find examples of posters and I will ask the mods to tell me why they were banned, as soon as you apologize for calling my opinion, "nonsense" and admit it was a rude remark.


I never asked why posters have been banned. I suspect that the mods wouldn't tell you anyway. Just post some of the threads that WS were shouted down, or cursed at, or run out where they were here for help is all I'm asking for and where mods took no action to stop the attack or the thread. Like you say it happens all the time so where is it 

And sure I'll apologize as soon as you do for making up that I go thread to thread making rude remarks which you already know isn't true
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

Whip Morgan said:


> There is a Waywards only section at SI. Like anything on the internet, there is some good and some bad. I suspect it would be similar here if there was a Waywards only section. Of course, it would take time for users and rules to be established. It wouldn't be overnight.
> 
> Now, any negatives? Among other things, you'd see what is commonly discussed over at SI. Lot of talk about the "fog" and the fantasy aspect of affairs. I.E. "I thought I loved my AP, but I was wrong, that wasn't real love..." etc. All that trash.
> 
> There is a heavy theme there that the fog is real and all powerful, and that affairs, while the actions are real, are actually fantasy.
> 
> Well, its real, all of it. The fog isn't all powerful because it doesn't exist. It must make a cheater much better to say that he/she didn't really love AP because its "not real love", which is really a defense mechanism to hide behind rather than admitting they did/do infact love AP.
> 
> *Not sure how bringing that here would help anyone.*



It wouldn't and I'm not impressed with it. It would change the character of TAM - you have posts where a WW is pregnant with another mans child and is whining about how her husband might be having an EA - so the mods there kept a stop sign on the thread to not allow BSs to comment - protecting the cheating wife from any non-wayward comments - that would change the character of TAM - and serve no one. Waywards should not get a "separate space"...civility yes -separate spaces - no...


----------



## Deejo

Nothing changes if nothing changes.


----------



## Anon Pink

Deejo said:


> Nothing changes if nothing changes.


Very criptic Deejo.

Do you insinuate that a BS has something to change or nothing will change for him/her?

Do you suggest that a WS will always find dissatisfaction thus seek extramarital affairs to fill in the gaps unless or until he/she changes?

Could you possibly be implying both?


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> Very critic Deejo.
> 
> Do you insinuate that a BS has something to change or nothing will change for him/her?
> 
> Do you suggest that a WS will always find dissatisfaction thus seek extramarital affairs to fill in the gaps unless or until he/she changes?
> 
> Could you possibly be implying both?


I took it as referencing TAM


----------



## Anon Pink

carmen ohio said:


> I've read quite a number of WS threads here and they generally fall into one of three categories:
> 
> 
> 
> [*]WSs who are genuinely remorseful for what they have done and are seeking advice about how to save their marriages;
> 
> 
> [*]WSs who, while demonstrating a degree of remorse and claiming to want advice on what to do, can't quite bring themselves to admit that they are entirely responsible for what they have done but, instead, insist that their BS failed them in some manner or that there is some other reason that explains and at least partially justifies their actions;
> 
> and
> 
> 
> [*]WSs you pretend to be remorseful but who are just using their thread as a kind of cover for placating their BS or even for continuing their affair.


I find myself scratching my head wondering why a WS would even come here if they didn't have some measure of remorse and some hope of reconnecting their marriage. As such, it doesn't make sense that any WS would fall into your number 3 category.

Zanne is in a class by herself. She came her originally to fix her marriage, but both she and her husband were so dreadfully attached to their special brand of dysfunction she ended up having an affair and I believe her affair was the only way those two were ever going to get the hell away from each other.




> The problem one has in responding to WS threads is that, initially, it is often not clear in which category the WS properly belongs. The harsh responses actually serve a purpose at the outset, as they help to identify which of the WS are genuinely sorry, which don't fully understand the gravity of their actions and which are mainly just blowing smoke.


This is where you and everyone are well intentioned yet quite wrong. Harsh responses do one of two things, chase them away or make them dig in their heels even more. Harsh responses are absolutely counter productive..if your goal is to actually reach them and help them. Harsh responses must feel great to deliver though.




> The harsh responses also can be useful in pushing a WS who doesn't quite get it to finally accept his or her responsibility for the affair.


No, what makes them able to see their behavior is TIME and SPACE. If they last her long enough, such as Zanne, they create the time and the space to open their eyes and question themselves.




> I would agree that some posters overreact and express their often valid skepticism in excessively vitriolic language. IMO, it is the moderators' (admittedly thankless) job to control this. I would also point out that, once a WS has demonstrated her _bona fides_, other posters usually come to her aid when she is unfairly denounced.


Interesting how your fictitious WS is a her... 



> What sets TAM/CWI apart from a lot of other infidelity help websites is the honesty and directness of the exchanges. My concern with yours and a lot of the other views expressed on this thread is that, in the well-meaning rush to tone down the harshness of the language that posters sometimes use, posters will be discouraged from speaking their minds, they will stop calling things like they see them and, as a result, the site will lose much of its effectiveness.
> 
> Could some people be more polite? Of course. Does the fact that they are not prevent waywards who are genuinely remorseful and desirous of changing from getting help here? I don't believe so.


The basic issue with TAM is that the TAMWay leaves no room for the lousy state of the marriage prior to the affair. None what so ever. That's really short sighted and it sets up every BS in a very comfortable victim chair in which they can fold their arms across their chest and stick out their lower lip in a mighty pout so all the world knows, "it's not my fault!" Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong and TAM would be a more effective place if there was room for the victim to get the hell out of the chair and assess the environment honestly, fearlessly, and sought what could be changed so that it doesn't happen again.

Trusting the wrong person can lead to not trusting the right person.


----------



## jld

Anon Pink said:


> The basic issue with TAM is that the TAMWay leaves no room for the lousy state of the marriage prior to the affair. None what so ever. That's really short sighted and it sets up every BS in a very comfortable victim chair in which they can fold their arms across their chest and stick out their lower lip in a mighty pout so all the world knows, "it's not my fault!" Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong and TAM would be a more effective place if there was room for the victim to get the hell out of the chair and assess the environment honestly, fearlessly, and sought what could be changed so that it doesn't happen again.


QFT.


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> I find myself scratching my head wondering why a WS would even come here if they didn't have some measure of remorse and some hope of reconnecting their marriage. As such, it doesn't make sense that any WS would fall into your number 3 category.
> 
> Zanne is in a class by herself. She came her originally to fix her marriage, but both she and her husband were so dreadfully attached to their special brand of dysfunction she ended up having an affair and I believe her affair was the only way those two were ever going to get the hell away from each other.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you and everyone are well intentioned yet quite wrong. Harsh responses do one of two things, chase them away or make them dig in their heels even more. Harsh responses are absolutely counter productive..if your goal is to actually reach them and help them. Harsh responses must feel great to deliver though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, what makes them able to see their behavior is TIME and SPACE. If they last her long enough, such as Zanne, they create the time and the space to open their eyes and question themselves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting how your fictitious WS is a her...
> 
> 
> 
> The basic issue with TAM is that the TAMWay leaves no room for the lousy state of the marriage prior to the affair. None what so ever. That's really short sighted and it sets up every BS in a very comfortable victim chair in which they can fold their arms across their chest and stick out their lower lip in a mighty pout so all the world knows, "it's not my fault!" Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong and TAM would be a more effective place if there was room for the victim to get the hell out of the chair and assess the environment honestly, fearlessly, and sought what could be changed so that it doesn't happen again.
> 
> Trusting the wrong person can lead to not trusting the right person.


I respectfully disagree with every point you raised.


----------



## Pluto2

And I will add, that I do not feel safe elaborating without being labeled and attacked. TAM is best when everybody can speak. Creating a special forum cuts that to the quick.


----------



## Wazza

Anon Pink said:


> The basic issue with TAM is that the TAMWay leaves no room for the lousy state of the marriage prior to the affair. None what so ever. That's really short sighted and it sets up every BS in a very comfortable victim chair in which they can fold their arms across their chest and stick out their lower lip in a mighty pout so all the world knows, "it's not my fault!" Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong


Being cheated on can be awful for your self esteem, so it's not surprising a BS might need to deal with feelings of blame. That said, I don't think it is constructive.

I do think that's where a lot of the vitriol towards WS comes from, and I think the BS needs to move beyond it for their own sake, as well as for the sake of the WS. And it definitely leads to groupthink. I am sure the TAM orthodoxy causes the end of marriages that could have been saved.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> I am sure the TAM orthodoxy causes the end of marriages that could have been saved.


True. Then again, the other half of that congregations keeps marriages together that should have ended.


----------



## Anon Pink

Wazza said:


> Being cheated on can be awful for your self esteem, so it's not surprising a BS might need to deal with feelings of blame. That said, I don't think it is constructive.
> 
> I do think that's where a lot of the vitriol towards WS comes from, and I think the BS needs to move beyond it for their own sake, as well as for the sake of the WS. And it definitely leads to groupthink. I am sure the TAM orthodoxy causes the end of marriages that could have been saved.


Wazza, I completely agree. There must be room and a safe place for those who have been betrayed to express themselves and TAM is excellent for that. Particularly for men because men don't usually have a safe place or person with whom they can express ALL the emotions involved.

If you are a betrayed spouse you have been victimized, unquestionably! Every victim of every trauma has to move through those stages of healing to get their life back. How long can a survivor stunt their lives because they had to live through something traumatic? 

Esther Perel said something I thought was quite profound and very applicable to a lot of victims. "*There are two kinds of survivors, those who didn't die and those who lived."* Those who didn't die spent their lives in a morose state of alert waiting for the next awful thing to happen. Those who lived embraced life and embraced love.


----------



## Anon Pink

phillybeffandswiss said:


> True. Then again, the other half of that congregations keeps marriages together that should have ended.


LOL

That's true too.


----------



## Rookie4

phillybeffandswiss said:


> True. Then again, the other half of that congregations keeps marriages together that should have ended.


Wow! This is the second time I have agreed with Philly. I' should probably head to the blackjack table.:grin2:
I guess I must be a rare bird. I do not believe that all BS's are innocent victims, however, I also do not believe in reconciliation. I don't believe that a repaired relationship/marriage is ever as good as a new one, any more than I believe that a repaired automobile is ever as good as a new one. It MIGHT be more comfortable, but it will have more problems, too.
But the point of this thread is still valid. Civility and respect encourages dialogue, dialogue encourages learning, learning encourages growth, and growth encourages a better future.....for all of us WS and BS. alike.


----------



## Anon Pink

Rookie4 said:


> .
> But the point of this thread is still valid. Civility and respect encourages dialogue, dialogue encourages learning, learning encourages growth, and growth encourages a better future.....for all of us WS and BS. alike.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> Wow! This is the second time I have agreed with Philly. I' should probably head to the blackjack table.:grin2:
> I guess I must be a rare bird. I do not believe that all BS's are innocent victims, however, *I also do not believe in reconciliation. I don't believe that a repaired relationship/marriage is ever as good as a new one, any more than I believe that a repaired automobile is ever as good as a new one. It MIGHT be more comfortable, but it will have more problems, too.*
> But the point of this thread is still valid. Civility and respect encourages dialogue, dialogue encourages learning, learning encourages growth, and growth encourages a better future.....for all of us WS and BS. alike.


But aren't there couples who reconcile everyday - and build a good marriage - believe me I'm not the reconcile at all costs - as you well know but i also think in some cases R is possible....if the WS pays the price and changes - cant the BS and the WS create a second marriage that is good for both of them? cant they both become better people? Is it rare - absolutely but I also think it is possible...


----------



## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> But aren't their couples who reconcile everyday - and build a good marriage - believe me I'm not the reconcile at all costs - as you well know but i also think in some cases R is possible....if the WS pays the price and changes - cant the BS and the WS create a second marriage that is good for both of them? cant they both become better people? Is it rare - absolutely but I also think it is possible...


I don't know. The jury is still out. 
There are two major schools of thought about this issue. School #1. That the amount of work that is required to reconcile, actually means that you are starting a completely new marriage...just with the same person.
School#2 That you are settling for a less than good marriage, for a variety of reasons. Financial, lonliness, comfort, kids etc. So you talk yourself into believing that things are better.
In either event, even if the WS does all of the heavy lifting, etc. The BS is still going to be on a steady diet of sh*t sandwiches for a long time.
Since I have no appetite for sh*t sandwiches, neither of these appeal to me, in the slightest, so I would almost always advise divorce.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know. The jury is still out.
> There are two major schools of thought about this issue. School #1. That the amount of work that is required to reconcile, actually means that you are starting a completely new marriage...just with the same person.
> School#2 That you are settling for a less than good marriage, for a variety of reasons. Financial, lonliness, comfort, kids etc. So you talk yourself into believing that things are better.
> *BTW, neither of these appeal to me, in the slightest, so I would almost always advise divorce*.


Your POV is understandable - for many people it is simply a deal breaker - nothing wrong with that..at all...


----------



## convert

Rookie4 said:


> I don't know. The jury is still out.
> There are two major schools of thought about this issue. School #1. That the amount of work that is required to reconcile, actually means that you are starting a completely new marriage...just with the same person.
> School#2 That you are settling for a less than good marriage, for a variety of reasons. Financial, lonliness, comfort, kids etc. So you talk yourself into believing that things are better.
> In either event, even if the WS does all of the heavy lifting, etc. The BS is still going to be on a steady diet of sh*t sandwiches for a long time.
> Since I have no appetite for sh*t sandwiches, neither of these appeal to me, in the slightest, so I would almost always advise divorce.


yes, understandable

I believe and maybe I am wrong here is that one of the main reasons for a WS to come to a forum is to help in R, to be able to navigate through R in a proper way.

The second reason to come here and maybe just as important is to better themselves for their next relationship, to watch out for the shortfalls of infidelity.


----------



## Wazza

I don't think you can tell anyone else whether to reconcile. You can just give them the pros and cons as you see them. It's a very complex and personal decision. Which again I see as something you need to be respectful about.

The WS I have known can be broadly divided into those who did something very out of character, and later felt tremendous guilt about it, and those who felt what they did was in some way right. I think in some ways my wife's affair hurt her more than it hurt me in the long run.


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> yes, understandable
> 
> I believe and maybe I am wrong here is that one of the main reasons for a WS to come to a forum is to help in R, to be able to navigate through R in a proper way.
> 
> The second reason to come here and maybe just as important is to better themselves for their next relationship, to watch out for the shortfalls of infidelity.


I believe this to be true. It will irritate the haters, but I think that the vast majority of WS's who come here, do so to improve themselves and find better ways to resolve their issues. The number of flagrantly unrepentant WS's are almost non existent. Does anybody remember a WS who came here saying Hip, hip hooray for me and my affair? LOL


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> I don't think you can tell anyone else whether to reconcile. You can just give them the pros and cons as you see them. It's a very complex and personal decision. Which again I see as something you need to be respectful about.
> 
> The WS I have known can be broadly divided into those who did something very out of character, and later felt tremendous guilt about it, and those who felt what they did was in some way right. I think in some ways my wife's affair hurt her more than it hurt me in the long run.


I agree completely with your first paragraph, not so much the second. I don't really believe in reconciliation, but I am more than willing to help anybody who truly wants to try .
I have seen a number of friends and family who have been involved in affairs.....very few of them ever believed it was the right thing to do.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> I don't think you can tell anyone else whether to reconcile. You can just give them the pros and cons as you see them. It's a very complex and personal decision. Which again I see as something you need to be respectful about.
> 
> The WS I have known can be broadly divided into those who did something *very out of character,* and later felt tremendous guilt about it, and those who felt what they did was in some way right. I think in some ways my wife's affair hurt her more than it hurt me in the long run.


with this do you mean like a drunken one night stand maybe resulting from a guys or girls night out?


----------



## norajane

Truthseeker1 said:


> But aren't there couples who reconcile everyday - and build a good marriage - believe me I'm not the reconcile at all costs - as you well know but i also think in some cases R is possible....if the WS pays the price and changes - cant the BS and the WS create a second marriage that is good for both of them? cant they both become better people? Is it rare - absolutely but I also think it is possible...


They can, they absolutely can. But few on TAM could do it with the guidance (not)given here.


----------



## Truthseeker1

norajane said:


> They can, they absolutely can. But few on TAM could do it with the guidance (not)given here.


I think the guidance given at time is for the most part solid - with a wide range of views


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I think that if more posters were like you,Matt, the warning wouldn't be necessary. You have almost always treated WS'S with respect.


Uhh, WS's didn't treat their BS spouses or their children (if they have them) with respect - why do they deserve respect in turn?


----------



## Healer

I rarely come to CWI anymore - but from what I've seen, the only time a WS gets "attacked" is when they display a lack of remorse, no culpability and blameshift to their BS.

The ones who come here genuinely looking for help, and who take responsibility are treated with respect.

I have seen rookie attacked for his blatant blaming of BS's for being cheated on, however. Maybe that's more what this thread is about.


----------



## Healer

WS's showed no self control, gave no respect, were cruel and abusive to their BS's. I'm not sure I get why BS's on this site are held to a much higher standard of civility, respect and kindness _after_ they were traumatized by their WS towards other WS's?


----------



## norajane

Healer said:


> WS's showed no self control, gave no respect, were cruel and abusive to their BS's. I'm not sure I get why BS's on this site are held to a much higher standard of civility, respect and kindness _after_ they were traumatized by their WS towards other WS's?


Because a WS posting here trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together is not _their _WS. They shouldn't be taking out their anger on a person they don't even know and who did nothing to them.


----------



## Dude007

Healer said:


> I'm not sure I get why BS's on this site are held to a much higher standard of civility, respect and kindness _after_ they were traumatized by their WS towards other WS's?


Because they have hopefully grown personally from the experience and risen above the fray? Also, some BS I know made out like bandits financially and wanted out of the marriage anyway so they were anything but traumatized. Skipped all the way to the bank.. DUDE


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> So why do you think that being courteous and civil to a WS is coddling? I'm betting that if you are a church goer, your preacher or priest would also advise you to be courteous and civil, as well. You can disagree with a WS, without being insulting and rude.


You, more than anyone else I've encountered on this site, has been insulting and rude to BS by either insinuating they brought the cheating on themselves, or outright saying it. Maybe you should look at your own behavior before you start judging everyone else's. Like I said, I rarely come here anymore, but when I did, your posts triggered me more than any WS ever did.


----------



## Wolf1974

norajane said:


> Because a WS posting here trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together is not _their _WS. They shouldn't be taking out their anger on a person they don't even know and who did nothing to them.


I agree that it needs remain civil but that also goes both ways. Some are triggerd on hot button issues like this and absolutely loose it and a subsequently banned, as it should be, so they can cool down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

norajane said:


> Because a WS posting here trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together is not _their _WS. They shouldn't be taking out their anger on a person they don't even know and who did nothing to them.


Ahh. So one is only justified in being disgusted with someone if they personally did something to you. Guess what? That's not the way the real world works. People have a moral code, and that moral code isn't restricted to only their personal lives and experiences. You don't think people express outrage and disdain towards people they read about in the news who have wronged others? "Well, they didn't do it to _me_, so, they deserve my respect". I don't think so.

Also - like I said - except for the very rare occasion, WS who come here actually "trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together" are treated with respect. It's the ones who blameshift and justify that don't.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> I rarely come to CWI anymore - but from what I've seen, the only time a WS gets "attacked" is when they display a lack of remorse, no culpability and blameshift to their BS.
> 
> *The ones who come here genuinely looking for help, and who take responsibility are treated with respect.*
> 
> I have seen rookie attacked for his blatant blaming of BS's for being cheated on, however. Maybe that's more what this thread is about.


QFT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Dude007 said:


> Because they have hopefully grown personally from the experience and risen above the fray? Also, some BS I know made out like bandits financially and wanted out of the marriage anyway so they were anything but traumatized. Skipped all the way to the bank.. DUDE


Ahh - so you do hold BS to a higher standard than WS. That's fair. < /sarcasm>

"Also, some BS I know made out like bandits financially and wanted out of the marriage anyway so they were anything but traumatized. Skipped all the way to the bank.. "

So the WS did them a_ favor_. Gotcha. Wow. Just wow.


----------



## Healer

Dude007 said:


> So why would a bs stay so bitter, wouldn't they move through the grieving cycle to acceptance or are some of them engaging in big pharma and so they can never move to acceptance(resolution)? I mean eventually you have to move on for your own sanity. Dude
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You should be a therapist or psychologist. When people with anxiety or depression or self esteem or whatever issues come to you, you could help them by saying "just get over it. Move on. Stop taking your medication and using it as an excuse to wallow in your self pity. Dude"


----------



## norajane

Healer said:


> Ahh. So one is only justified in being disgusted with someone if they personally did something to you. Guess what? That's not the way the real world works. People have a moral code, and that moral code isn't restricted to only their personal lives and experiences. You don't think people express outrage and disdain towards people they read about in the news who have wronged others? "Well, they didn't do it to _me_, so, they deserve my respect". I don't think so.
> 
> Also - like I said - except for the very rare occasion, WS who come here actually "trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together" are treated with respect. It's the ones who blameshift and justify that don't.


You can be as disgusted with anyone as you like. Doesn't mean you can or should be rude to them on a site purporting to offer help for people.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I think that in a lot of cases, the BS is afraid of what they might learn, so they make up scenarios where they are only the innocent victim, and never an accessory.


Case in point. Once again you shift the blame to the BS, in a totally general sense. This, what you just posted, is rude and insulting. And in a thread where you are chastising people for being rude and insulting. Extremely hypocritical.

You just said that BS are rude and insulting because they want to deflect from the fact that they will learn that they actually brought the affair on themselves. Unreal.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Healer said:


> Ahh. So one is only justified in being disgusted with someone if they personally did something to you. Guess what? That's not the way the real world works. People have a moral code, and that moral code isn't restricted to only their personal lives and experiences. You don't think people express outrage and disdain towards people they read about in the news who have wronged others? "Well, they didn't do it to _me_, so, they deserve my respect". I don't think so.
> 
> Also - like I said - except for the very rare occasion, WS who come here actually "trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together" are treated with respect. It's the ones who blameshift and justify that don't.


Correct -- We live in a society filled with social justice warriors (SJWs) who routinely shun people for views they dont like...


----------



## Healer

norajane said:


> You can be as disgusted with anyone as you like. Doesn't mean you can or should be rude to them on a site purporting to offer help for people.


I'm not being rude to anyone. I do, however , have a problem with the glaring double standard, and I still maintain that the rudeness I have seen on this site is directed towards WS who come here to blameshift, deny culpability and justify their behavior. I also see "rude" treatment of BS by certain individuals who flat out, and in a general sense, claim that BS are somehow responsible for being cheated on and bring it on themselves. Although there are very few of those type of people. But they tend to make a lot of noise - like this thread, for example.


----------



## Healer

Pluto2 said:


> And you wonder why folks take offense, go figure.


Astounding, isn't it?


----------



## Truthseeker1

Healer said:


> I'm not being rude to anyone. I do, however , have a problem with the glaring double standard, and I still maintain that the rudeness I have seen on this site is directed towards WS who come here to blameshift, deny culpability and justify their behavior. *I also see "rude" treatment of BS by certain individuals who flat out, and in a general sense, claim that BS are somehow responsible for being cheated on and bring it on themselves. *Although there are very few of those type of people. But they tend to make a lot of noise - like this thread, for example.


The BS can't catch a break - they are responsible in part for the break down of the marriage and part of the affair? Why any BS would not go off and have multiple RAs after being blamed for everything anyway is beyond me...


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Rookie is 1,000,000% percent right. Beautifully put.


So that's 2 of you I count in this thread...


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Such an intelligent and evidence-based point of view....well done sir, I am truly bested by the sheer force of your intellect and the logical persuasion of your impeccable reasoning. I cannot compete with someone who clearly has a brain the size of a planet.
> 
> All I have is 25 years successful reconciliation that would not have happened had I followed TAM orthodoxy, but that does owe something to some of the same ideas Rookie has been articulating in this thread. Just putting it out there. Accept or reject as you will.


"Such an intelligent and evidence-based point of view...". As is your blatant agreement with blaming the BS for being cheated on. The meme actually summed up how I felt about your agreement quite nicely.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> I agree. If a WS posts here then obviously they know that something isn't good and wants help.


On the contrary - I've seen many WS come here looking for validation and to have others justify their actions. Those are the ones who sometimes provoke angry outbursts from BS.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> Sure. If a WS says something like "I've been having an affair and I'm trying to break it off but I care about the OM."
> 
> Instead if saying "Then get a divorce you cake eating [email protected]#$" you can say "You've spent time with the OM so it's normal to feel a bond and breaking bonds is always difficult."


Coddling, right there in black text.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Uhh, WS's didn't treat their BS spouses or their children (if they have them) with respect - why do they deserve respect in turn?


Because this is America, and everybody deserves the respect of a fair hearing. Even in a court, there is both a prosecution and a defense. Are you suggesting that WS's should not be allowed to tell their side of the story, free of coercion, but should be condemned out of hand?


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Ahh. So one is only justified in being disgusted with someone if they personally did something to you. Guess what? That's not the way the real world works. People have a moral code, and that moral code isn't restricted to only their personal lives and experiences. You don't think people express outrage and disdain towards people they read about in the news who have wronged others? "Well, they didn't do it to _me_, so, they deserve my respect". I don't think so.
> 
> Also - like I said - except for the very rare occasion, WS who come here actually "trying to get help in putting their marriage or life back together" are treated with respect. It's the ones who blameshift and justify that don't.


But that is the issue, isn't it. It isn't for YOU or any other poster or group to decide what the "moral code" should be. Not even me, especially not me. I DO NOT have any answers for other posters, but I do demand that all posters be treated as free citizens, and that their Freedom of Speech should not be impaired by posters who would condemn them without a civil, fair and honest hearing.


----------



## Anon Pink

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think the guidance given at time is for the most part solid - with a wide range of views


I point to gridcom's thread as evidence that the guidance given here is singular and follows the TAMWay and any other line of support is picked apart and attacked.

As I've said, and many others also, the TAMWay doesn't allow for introspection on the state of the marriage prior to the affair and until that changes any claims of a "wide range of views" is laughably inaccurate.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Case in point. Once again you shift the blame to the BS, in a totally general sense. This, what you just posted, is rude and insulting. And in a thread where you are chastising people for being rude and insulting. Extremely hypocritical.
> 
> You just said that BS are rude and insulting because they want to deflect from the fact that they will learn that they actually brought the affair on themselves. Unreal.


Please NAME the poster I "insulted" or that I was "rude" to.? I would be very interested in knowing this.


----------



## Rookie4

Ok, all of you who have "liked" the posts which say that WS's deserve no respect or civility, I would like to hear from....now. This issue is about an individuals right to be heard, so lets hear from those who feel that persons should be shouted down and punished without a fair hearing.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> I point to gridcom's thread as evidence that the guidance given here is singular and follows the TAMWay and any other line of support is picked apart and attacked.
> 
> As I've said, and many others also, the TAMWay doesn't allow for introspection on the *state of the marriage* prior to the affair and until that changes any claims of a "wide range of views" is laughably inaccurate.


Probably because they are two separate things. A ****ty husband or wife may be responsible for entirely or partially for a ****ty marriage but an affair is a act chosen by one person in that marriage. You can make the same statement for a marriage involving domestic violence. Often have I arrested the perpetrator of the violence but had no doubts that this marriage was a mutually ****ty for both parties. However the violence was the choice of one person and that person alone and it had consequences
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, all of you who have "liked" the posts which say that WS's deserve no respect or civility, I would like to hear from....now. This issue is about an individuals right to be heard, so lets hear from those who feel that persons should be shouted down and punished without a fair hearing.


Define it then because I believe that you think calling someone out for what they are doing wrong to you is shouting down where I define it as holding them accountable. actual shouting down is name calling, cursing and belittling. 

So how are you going to define it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> with this do you mean like a drunken one night stand maybe resulting from a guys or girls night out?


An act of adultery is an act of adultery, whether it is1 time or 20 times. Alcohol is no excuse for cheating.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> An act of adultery is an act of adultery, whether it is1 time or 20 times. Alcohol is no excuse for cheating.


 never said it was. But I don't agree a year long affair is the same as drunken one night stand either 

Both are wrong but both aren't the same either
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> I point to gridcom's thread as evidence that the guidance given here is singular and follows the TAMWay and any other line of support is picked apart and attacked.
> 
> 
> 
> As I've said, and many others also, the TAMWay doesn't allow for introspection on the state of the marriage prior to the affair and until that changes any claims of a "wide range of views" is laughably inaccurate.



To which specific portions of gridcom's thread are you referring?


----------



## convert

Wolf1974 said:


> Probably because they are two separate things. A ****ty husband or wife may be responsible for entirely or partially for a ****ty marriage but an affair is a act chosen by one person in that marriage. *You can make the same statement for a marriage involving domestic violence. Often have I arrested the perpetrator of the violence but had no doubts that this marriage was a mutually ****ty for both parties. However the violence was the choice of one person and that person alone and it had consequences*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see this

after all we don't or shouldn't blame the spouse that got beat up for the violence, as saying what did they do to cause the beat down.

Infidelity may not domestic violence but it is certainly domestic abuse


----------



## Truthseeker1

convert said:


> I can see this
> 
> after all we don't or shouldn't blame the spouse that got beat up for the violence, as saying what did they do to cause the beat down.
> 
> Infidelity may not domestic violence but it is certainly domestic abuse


It boils down to this - people are adults - they know right from wrong - they need to control their impulses - the WS deals with problems by [email protected]#$%^& another person - is the BS a saint no but did they deserve to be scarred for life - hell [email protected]#$%^& no....


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> But that is the issue, isn't it. It isn't for YOU or any other poster or group to decide what the "moral code" should be. Not even me, especially not me. I DO NOT have any answers for other posters, but I do demand that all posters be treated as free citizens, and that their Freedom of Speech should not be impaired by posters who would condemn them without a civil, fair and honest hearing.


LOL!! You are enforcing your own "moral code" right in this here thread you started! Man you're a funny guy. You must be surrounded by a lot of gullible people in your life to think you can manipulate others like you do.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Because this is America, and everybody deserves the respect of a fair hearing. Even in a court, there is both a prosecution and a defense. Are you suggesting that WS's should not be allowed to tell their side of the story, free of coercion, but should be condemned out of hand?


"This is America". No, this is the internet - and we are not all Americans. This is not a court of law, and this is not a legal issue.I never once stated WS shouldn't be allowed to tell their side of the story. I never claimed the other things you are accusing me of either.

I am calling you out for being a hypocrite - enforcing YOUR "moral code" on everyone here with your "warning" about being rude and disrespectful, when right in said thread you CONTINUE to do just that by assigning blame to BS for being cheated on. It's just astounding.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Please NAME the poster I "insulted" or that I was "rude" to.? I would be very interested in knowing this.


Every single time you assign blame to BS's (which you do, always have, and you damn well know it), you are not only insulting and being rude, you are causing more pain and hurt for those who were betrayed, and for those that are in a less than strong state of mind, causing them to blame themselves. I think you're sadistic, actually, but you try and portray yourself as fighting for the underdog - standing up for the little guy. I think you actually enjoy bullying BS - which is exactly what you do every time you state that the BS is somehow responsible for being cheated on.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Ok, all of you who have "liked" the posts which say that WS's deserve no respect or civility, I would like to hear from....now. This issue is about an individuals right to be heard, so lets hear from those who feel that persons should be shouted down and punished without a fair hearing.


Again, this ain't 'murica and this ain't a court of law.


"...now". Oh sir yes sir! Lol.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> LOL!! You are enforcing your own "moral code" right in this here thread you started! Man you're a funny guy. You must be surrounded by a lot of gullible people in your life to think you can manipulate others like you do.


I guess I'm going to have to not respond to your posts. You only read what you want, and ignore anything that is different from your own opinion. I CLEARLY stated that I was not to decide ANYBODY'S morals, didn't I? So if you are going to misquote me, we are done .


----------



## Healer

convert said:


> I can see this
> 
> after all we don't or shouldn't blame the spouse that got beat up for the violence, as saying what did they do to cause the beat down.
> 
> Infidelity may not domestic violence but it is certainly domestic abuse


By rookie's logic - the physically abused spouse did bring the whoopins on themselves. They "didn't pull the trigger, but they pointed the gun"... or whatever nonsense that was. Even literally I guess - people who have actually been murdered by their abusive spouse - the dead spouse "pointed the gun".


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Every single time you assign blame to BS's (which you do, always have, and you damn well know it), you are not only insulting and being rude, you are causing more pain and hurt for those who were betrayed, and for those that are in a less than strong state of mind, causing them to blame themselves. I think you're sadistic, actually, but you try and portray yourself as fighting for the underdog - standing up for the little guy. I think you actually enjoy bullying BS - which is exactly what you do every time you state that the BS is somehow responsible for being cheated on.


 I have been here a couple of years now, so Please find any post where I have said that the BS is responsible for being cheated on. I' won't wait, because there isn't one.....not even one.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I guess I'm going to have to not respond to your posts. You only read what you want, and ignore anything that is different from your own opinion. I CLEARLY stated that I was not to decide ANYBODY'S morals, didn't I? So if you are going to misquote me, we are done .


Typical response from someone who's been totally and completely busted. If you don't see that your "warning" thread about being rude and insulting to others isn't an attempt to enforce your very own moral code, then you are either completely ignorant or just obtuse.

But by all means - ignore the posts that call you out for what you really are. That's your MO, after all.


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> I can see this
> 
> after all we don't or shouldn't blame the spouse that got beat up for the violence, as saying what did they do to cause the beat down.
> 
> Infidelity may not domestic violence but it is certainly domestic abuse


I agree completely that the act of adultery is abusive. Where I don't agree is that this act was or is spontaneous, and that the pre affair conditions have no bearing on it.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Define it then because I believe that you think calling someone out for what they are doing wrong to you is shouting down where I define it as holding them accountable. actual shouting down is name calling, cursing and belittling.
> 
> So how are you going to define it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a good question, and a reasonable post so I'll try to answer. I guess, in my opinion, that it is a matter of perspective. You perceive it as holding them to account, and I believe you. I believe that many posters think the same. there are even times when I feel the same. The point of this thread is that even when we are doing so, we don't gang up on the WS, repeatedly tell them how awful they are, and don't allow them the right of a free hearing, without badmouthing or expressions of hatred. You can only beat a dog so many times before it will run away or attack. If the point of TAM is to learn, how can this happen without WS participation?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I have been here a couple of years now, so Please find any post where I have said that the BS is responsible for being cheated on. I' won't wait, because there isn't one.....not even one.


You're kidding, right? You even got called out on it by me and another poster IN THIS THREAD. The reason I remember you is because of all the posts you've made where you assign blame to the BS. THAT'S WHAT WE ARGUED ABOUT in all those other threads. THAT'S my beef with you. Are you seriously, really, honestly going to deny that?? Here are 2 instances in this thread alone:



Rookie4 said:


> I think that in a lot of cases, the BS is afraid of what they might learn, so they make up scenarios where they are only the innocent victim, and never an accessory. Like my other analogy, we might not have pulled the trigger, but we might have helped to aim the gun. BS's WANT to believe that the WS is evil, so they don't have to work on themselves.





Rookie4 said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What it DOES, is allow BS's who are having emotional issues, to better understand the "WHY" of the affair, the mindset of the WS, what was possibly wrong in the marriage and with each partner, and to attain closure..ALL of these things, in the long run, will aid the BS considerably.
> Actually, the reluctance of some BS's to even attempt to communicate with their WS's is possibly indicative of a general lack of communication before the affair took place. It has been my experience that relationships based on honest and courteous communication are usually the most healthy and lasting. I have said this before, but it is a constant amazement to me that so few married people know their spouses. This, of course, includes myself.
> 
> 
> 
> You must really think we're all incredibly stupid.
Click to expand...


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> never said it was. But I don't agree a year long affair is the same as drunken one night stand either
> 
> Both are wrong but both aren't the same either
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree, I would tolerate neither. Nor would I be more forgiving of one sex act than I would of 20.


----------



## Healer

Pluto2 said:


> And you wonder why folks take offense, go figure.


The other poster I was referring to that took offense to you blame shifting to the BS. rookie, stop lying, especially when there's this thing called the quote button - it's just utterly embarrassing.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> This is a good question, and a reasonable post so I'll try to answer. I guess, in my opinion, that it is a matter of perspective. You perceive it as holding them to account, and I believe you. I believe that many posters think the same. there are even times when I feel the same. The point of this thread is that even when we are doing so, we don't gang up on the WS, repeatedly tell them how awful they are, and don't allow them the right of a free hearing, without badmouthing or expressions of hatred. You can only beat a dog so many times before it will run away or attack. If the point of TAM is to learn, how can this happen without WS participation?


So again I challenge you to provide threads where this happens. I have also been here for years and don't see this at all how you do. What strikes me is that it's not ganing up on the WS it's not letting them blame shift. You can never change your behavior till you recognize what you are doing wrong. Further I have seen the WS you quoted, and I agreed with , as being good posters call out WS who weren't taking accountability. So when they do it it's fine but when a Bs does it gets called shouted down. That's a problem. 

Now I do agree name calling has no place here and agree sometimes people need to be banned to cool off. But if you post on a open forum that you are doing wrong they don't get to control the reaction they get not who gives it to them. Just doesn't work that way. 

My opinion even if you give them a place... The WS grotto it would be about as useful as the men's clubhouse and women's clubhouse keeping the other gender out. Their are alternatives for private groups as I understand however and if WS have concerns they can contact directly through PM people who are like minded. I have had them contact me directly and BS alike. Both who wanted advice but didn't want to post in open forum. So those opportunities also exist
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I disagree, I would tolerate neither. Nor would I be more forgiving of one sex act than I would of 20.


That's fine with me. But difference between you and me is I can accept we don't see things the same. 

For me the act of sex was horrible enough. But the thing that brought me to my knees was the months of lying, repeated deception, endangering my children, and constant disrespect that was shown. These things hurt me far more than the fact my x had sex with someone else

I'm not saying that I would have reconciled if it was just a one night stand with some stranger. But I may have been able to forgive her I couldn't do that now. So they are both wrong to me but the way it went down was far far worse than a one night stand. 

I think that all BS have different thoughts on what hurt the most. That's natural
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I have been here a couple of years now, so Please find any post where I have said that the BS is responsible for being cheated on. I' won't wait, because there isn't one.....not even one.


Will the 2 I quoted in this thread suffice, or shall I dig up some more? Or are you "done with me" now that you've been outed?


----------



## carmen ohio

Anon Pink said:


> . . . The basic issue with TAM is that the TAMWay leaves no room for the lousy state of the marriage prior to the affair. None what so ever. That's really short sighted and it sets up every BS in a very comfortable victim chair in which they can fold their arms across their chest and stick out their lower lip in a mighty pout so all the world knows, "it's not my fault!" Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong and TAM would be a more effective place if there was room for the victim to get the hell out of the chair and assess the environment honestly, fearlessly, and sought what could be changed so that it doesn't happen again . . .


AP,

I believe that you grossly misstate the majority viewpoint on TAM/CWI.

What most posters do is draw a distinction between responsibility for the affair and responsibility for problems in the marriage. People here say over and over again that the former is 100% on the cheater but the latter is (usually) shared between the marriage partners.

This is a critical distinction to make because, in truth, many BSs who come here feel a measure of responsibility for the affair and are therefore conflicted as to how to react. How many threads have we read in which the BS starts off by confessing, and apologizing profusely for, the things he or she has done wrong in the marriage and believes that the WS's behavior is the direct result of, if not at least partially justified by, the BS's failings?

Your comment also overlooks the fact that the purpose of TAM/*CWI* is to help people deal with infidelity, not to fix the underying problems in the marriage. Hence the focus on the WS's responsibility for the affair instead of the degree of responsibility of the BS for the pre-existing problems in the marriage.

Most marriages are imperfect and most marriage partners are at least partly to blame for this. But this in no way justifies cheating and, IMO, anyone who doesn't understand this should not be advising BSs, on TAM/CWI or anywhere else.


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> AP,
> 
> I believe that you grossly misstate the majority viewpoint on TAM/CWI.
> 
> What most posters do is draw a distinction between responsibility for the affair and responsibility for problems in the marriage. People here say over and over again that the former is 100% on the cheater but the latter is (usually) shared between the marriage partners.
> 
> This is a critical distinction to make because, in truth, many BSs who come here feel a measure of responsibility for the affair and are therefore conflicted as to how to react. How many threads have we read in which the BS starts off by confessing, and apologizing profusely for, the things he or she has done wrong in the marriage and believes that the WS's behavior is the direct result of, if not at least partially justified by, the BS's failings?
> 
> Your comment also overlooks the fact that the purpose of TAM/*CWI* is to help people deal with infidelity, not to fix the underying problems in the marriage. Hence the focus on the WS's responsibility for the affair instead of the degree of responsibility of the BS for the pre-existing problems in the marriage.
> 
> Most marriages are imperfect and most marriage partners are at least partly to blame for this. But this in no way justifies cheating and, IMO, anyone who doesn't understand this should not be advising BSs, on TAM/CWI or anywhere else.


I agree with a lot you say, but You simply cannot deal with infidelity if you don't work on the underlying causes. Healing from infidelity takes time, but it also takes understanding of the other side...the Wayward side. I cannot see how you can clap with one hand.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> Truthseeker1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But aren't their couples who reconcile everyday - and build a good marriage - believe me I'm not the reconcile at all costs - as you well know but i also think in some cases R is possible....if the WS pays the price and changes - cant the BS and the WS create a second marriage that is good for both of them? cant they both become better people? Is it rare - absolutely but I also think it is possible...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know. The jury is still out.
> There are two major schools of thought about this issue. School #1. That the amount of work that is required to reconcile, actually means that you are starting a completely new marriage...just with the same person.
> School#2 That you are settling for a less than good marriage, for a variety of reasons. Financial, lonliness, comfort, kids etc. So you talk yourself into believing that things are better.
> In either event, even if the WS does all of the heavy lifting, etc. The BS is still going to be on a steady diet of sh*t sandwiches for a long time.
> Since I have no appetite for sh*t sandwiches, neither of these appeal to me, in the slightest, so I would almost always advise divorce.
Click to expand...

Rookie4,

You say the silliest things, sometimes.

First of all, the _"jury"_ has nothing to do with whether or not people can rebuild their relationships after infidelity. It happens all the time, as evidenced by quite a number of couples who have described their reconciliation on TAM/CWI.

Second, where did you get this notion of there being just _"two major schools of thought__ about this issue"_? There are dozens if not hundreds of viewpoints on how to deal with infidelity, ranging all the way from _'people cheat so everybody should just get over it'_ to your belief that every BS should divorce his or her WS.

The problem with your POV is that life is more unpredictable and people are more complicated than you seem to understand. Except for the likes of people like President Obama and Donald Trump, we all eat sh*t sandwiches all the time, and no one that I know (myself included) can say with certainty what is best for anyone (again, myself included).

I find it somewhat ironic that the guy who tells every BH here that he should divorce his WW starts a thread complaining about the way other people treat WSs.

But, then again, I find a lot of what I read on TAM/CWI rather ironic.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> But that is the issue, isn't it. It isn't for YOU or any other poster or group to decide what the "moral code" should be. Not even me, especially not me. *I DO NOT have any answers for other posters*, but I do demand that all posters be treated as free citizens, and that their Freedom of Speech should not be impaired by posters who would condemn them without a civil, fair and honest hearing.


Really, you don't? Then there's some guy send posts to TAM/CWI whose stolen your user name.


----------



## Healer

carmen ohio said:


> Really, you don't? Then there's some guy send posts to TAM/CWI whose stolen your user name.


Don't bother - once you bust him outright for his hypocrisy and lies, he'll just "stop responding" to you. Frustrating at first, amusing after a while.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with a lot you say, but* You simply cannot deal with infidelity if you don't work on the underlying causes.* Healing from infidelity takes time, but it also takes understanding of the other side...the Wayward side. I cannot see how you can clap with one hand.


What a bizarre thing for you to say. You're the guy who tells people not to work on infidelity but simply to divorce.

In any event, everybody agrees that, once the infidelity has ended, the WS has demonstrated remorse and genuine desire to change and the BS has agreed to attempt reconciliation, the underlying problems in the marriage should be addressed.

What people here say frequently and with justification is that, until one gets to the reconciliation stage, the BS's marriage failings should not be part of the discussion, as it only serves allow the WS to justify his or her actions.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> So that's 2 of you I count in this thread...


Healer, you need to remember that both Rookie and I are also BS. In my case the explosion happened a couple of decades ago, so I have had a lot of time to process it.

For the record. When a WS cheats it is wrong. Wrong. 



*WRONG*.


It is on them. They need to deal with it.

When my wife cheated she was wrong. The decision to cheat was a conscious decision and it was wrong. The decision to continue the affair when it was found out was wrong. She had issues as a person that she handled badly, that took her to that place. 

Do my last two paragraphs resonate with you more than other posts I have made.

My reason for not burning WS at the stake has nothing to do with blaming the BS, or thinking affairs are ok. It has everything to do with my view of human frailty.

I think you see part of the picture very well, but I am not sure you see the whole picture.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> I have seen a number of friends and family who have been involved in affairs.....very few of them ever believed it was the right thing to do.


Maybe "defensible" is a better word than "right"

As soo as someone says "it was wrong BUT..." You are in the danger zone. "I didn't want to have the affair, but my husband wasn't there for me." "I didn't want to have sex with that coworker/prostitute/girl in the bar, but my wife is focussed on the kids and my needs aren't being met".

As soon as someone thinks there is justification for an affair, you are on shaky ground. Because if they can justify it once that can justify it again. Does that make more sense?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Wazza said:


> I don't think you can tell anyone else whether to reconcile.


Sure you can, it is called an opinion. It happens all of the time, all over this board. Just like, in a current thread, someone is saying you CAN save this marriage. 



> You can just give them the pros and cons as you see them. It's a very complex and personal decision. Which again I see as something you need to be respectful about.


This is advice to me. While advice and opinions aren't mutually exclusive they can be. I can respectfully disagree with your position and still tell you not to reconcile.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> ... your posts triggered me....


Triggers suck, and I am sorry that you experience it. Life is hard sometimes.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Triggers suck, and I am sorry that you experience it. Life is hard sometimes.


I don't really get triggered any more. But I am still compelled to call bull**** and hypocrisy when I see it.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> I think you see part of the picture very well, but I am not sure you see the whole picture.


And what is it you believe I am not seeing?


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> And what is it you believe I am not seeing?


Ironically, how to heal


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Ironically, how to heal


I'm doing quite well on that end, actually. Anger towards exww is gone. I'm not really looking to be in a relationship, but that's more because I'm enjoying being single and not having the responsibility. Admittedly I'm not all the way there yet, but well down the path.

But no matter how healed I am, I'll never cease calling bull**** when I see it. That's just my nature. Always has been.


----------



## Anon Pink

Wolf1974 said:


> Probably because they are two separate things. A ****ty husband or wife may be responsible for entirely or partially for a ****ty marriage but an affair is a act chosen by one person in that marriage. You can make the same statement for a marriage involving domestic violence. Often have I arrested the perpetrator of the violence but had no doubts that this marriage was a mutually ****ty for both parties. However the violence was the choice of one person and that person alone and it had consequences
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



In my limited experience with DV, there seems to be a theme of codependency between both spouses. Having said that, the violence perpetrated by one upon the other is the choice and singular responsibility of the violent spouse. Which is why a spouse who has been abused must learn to recognize her tendency toward codependent relationships in order to avoid a second abusive match. 






GusPolinski said:


> To which specific portions of gridcom's thread are you referring?



Sorry Gus but I have no intention of combing through a thousand posts to find the multitude of posts in which JLD's POV is ridiculed, picked apart, laughed at, and shot down by SEVERAL, as in 4-6 off the top of my head, other contributors. Why do they shoot her down? Because she is advocating that the BS fix his side of the street in order to save his marriage. Tsk tsk tsk JLD, this is not the TAMWay!





carmen ohio said:


> AP,
> 
> I believe that you grossly misstate the majority viewpoint on TAM/CWI.
> 
> What most posters do is draw a distinction between responsibility for the affair and responsibility for problems in the marriage. People here say over and over again that the former is 100% on the cheater but the latter is (usually) shared between the marriage partners.
> 
> This is a critical distinction to make because, in truth, many BSs who come here feel a measure of responsibility for the affair and are therefore conflicted as to how to react. How many threads have we read in which the BS starts off by confessing, and apologizing profusely for, the things he or she has done wrong in the marriage and believes that the WS's behavior is the direct result of, if not at least partially justified by, the BS's failings?


Before I came to TAM and my marriage was lousy, I actually really wanted to have an affair. I wanted to know if I could get naked with another man. I wanted to know if other men might want me since my husband didn't seem too interested in me as a person. I really really wanted to have an affair! 

What drove me to that point? My husband. Unquestionably my husband's lack of response to my pleas for ..whatever...made me desperate to know if it was me or him. Was I that unattractive? If my own husband couldn't say and do loving things was that my fault or his fault? I thought only an affair would help me understand an answer. 

My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.




> Your comment also overlooks the fact that the purpose of TAM/*CWI* is to help people deal with infidelity, not to fix the underying problems in the marriage. Hence the focus on the WS's responsibility for the affair instead of the degree of responsibility of the BS for the pre-existing problems in the marriage.
> 
> Most marriages are imperfect and most marriage partners are at least partly to blame for this. But this in no way justifies cheating and, IMO, anyone who doesn't understand this should not be advising BSs, on TAM/CWI or anywhere else.



Infidelity doesn't fall into 3 neat categories. Some times the marriage is crap, was crap, and it was the crappy marriage that provided fertile ground for an affair to happen. Fix the crappy marriage and maybe THEN the affair can be dealt with. But why bother dealing with the affair to go back to the same crappy marriage? That's the part that makes no sense to me.


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry Gus but I have no intention of combing through a thousand posts to find the multitude of posts in which JLD's POV is ridiculed, picked apart, laughed at, and shot down by SEVERAL, as in 4-6 off the top of my head, other contributors. Why do they shoot her down? Because she is advocating that the BS fix his side of the street in order to save his marriage. Tsk tsk tsk JLD, this is not the TAMWay!


But that IS a valid perspective. _(ETA: Actually, w/ respect to reconciliation, it's the ONLY *realistic* perspective.)_ If a couple is looking to reconcile their marriage in the face of infidelity, then any dysfunction that existed prior to the affair HAS to be dealt with AS WELL AS the affair, and it's nothing short of absolutely naive to think otherwise.

That said, the dysfunction and the affair need to be dealt with _separately_. Neither transgression erases or provides absolution for the other.

But waiting around for the WS to end his or her affair? No. Never.

F*ck that noise.


----------



## Anon Pink

GusPolinski said:


> But that IS a valid perspective. If a couple is looking to reconcile their marriage in the face of infidelity, then any dysfunction that existed prior to the affair HAS to be dealt with AS WELL AS the affair, and it's nothing short of absolutely naive to think otherwise.
> 
> That said, the dysfunction and the affair need to be dealt with _separately_. Neither transgression erases or provides absolution for the other.
> 
> But waiting around for the WS to end his or her affair? No. Never.
> 
> F*ck that noise.



That's a valid POV. But it's not the only one.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> In my limited experience with DV, there seems to be a theme of codependency between both spouses. Having said that, the violence perpetrated by one upon the other is the choice and singular responsibility of the violent spouse. Which is why a spouse who has been abused must learn to recognize her tendency toward codependent relationships in order to avoid a second abusive match.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes there are times when you have codependency issues in violent relationships however they also run the entire spectrum. You will find it every race and social class. You find it in bad relationships and good relationships. Sometimes people have a "you touch me aggressively and we are done rule" and until a night of drunkness it never happens.
> 
> This is why it is such a great analogy for infidelity. Infidelity also touches every race and class. It comes along in good and bad relationships. But at the end of the day it's the choice on the individual to hit or stray and that should never be put upon the victim spouse. Always exceptions to rules of course those who give permission to cheat and those who practice domestic discipline I suppose but I am speaking of the average.
> 
> As your example goes I had to do some learning about myself after my divorce. I learned that I don't pick nice and reasonable women. I pick damaged women and try to save them so I was sabotaging myself. But I had nothing to do with my X wives affair and she would be first to state that. She took the ownership of it was all on her.


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> That's a valid POV. But it's not the only one.


So in what ways would you -- or @jld or anyone else, for that matter -- edit my post above in order to succinctly communicate the perspective that is being touted over in grid's thread?


----------



## Anon Pink

@Wolf1974,

If a relationship includes even one night of drunken violence it is by definition NOT a good relationship. Therefore your insistence that DV is analogous to infidelity is at best inaccurate and at worst totally and completely wrong.

Gus, I'll answer tomorrow.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> @Wolf1974,
> 
> If a relationship includes even one night of drunken violence it is by definition NOT a good relationship. Therefore your insistence that DV is analogous to infidelity is at best inaccurate and at worst totally and completely wrong.
> 
> Gus, I'll answer tomorrow.


Ridiculous. so everything in history has to be defined by one bad incident? It's impossible to have a good and solid relationship and then something occurs in the relationship that makes it go south? You and I live in different worlds then because I have seen that most realtionships start off good and then some get stronger, some stay the same, some stagnate and others go bad. My X and I were very happy for years years. Just because it ended terribly doesn't wipe everything away and make the entire relationship bad or that at one time we were very much in love. World just doesn't work that way in absolutes


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> Rookie4,
> 
> You say the silliest things, sometimes.
> 
> First of all, the _"jury"_ has nothing to do with whether or not people can rebuild their relationships after infidelity. It happens all the time, as evidenced by quite a number of couples who have described their reconciliation on TAM/CWI.
> 
> Second, where did you get this notion of there being just _"two major schools of thought__ about this issue"_? There are dozens if not hundreds of viewpoints on how to deal with infidelity, ranging all the way from _'people cheat so everybody should just get over it'_ to your belief that every BS should divorce his or her WS.
> 
> The problem with your POV is that life is more unpredictable and people are more complicated than you seem to understand. Except for the likes of people like President Obama and Donald Trump, we all eat sh*t sandwiches all the time, and no one that I know (myself included) can say with certainty what is best for anyone (again, myself included).
> 
> I find it somewhat ironic that the guy who tells every BH here that he should divorce his WW starts a thread complaining about the way other people treat WSs.
> 
> But, then again, I find a lot of what I read on TAM/CWI rather ironic.


You took my post out of context. There are only 2 schools of thought regarding reconciliation. Either you renew the marriage or settle for less. the third choice is divorce , which doesn't apply here. Of course there are thousands of stories, but you can only do one of two things , if you reconcile. You will find, if you look, that all reconciliations fall in one or the other or some combination of both. IMO.


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> What a bizarre thing for you to say. You're the guy who tells people not to work on infidelity but simply to divorce.
> 
> In any event, everybody agrees that, once the infidelity has ended, the WS has demonstrated remorse and genuine desire to change and the BS has agreed to attempt reconciliation, the underlying problems in the marriage should be addressed.
> 
> What people here say frequently and with justification is that, until one gets to the reconciliation stage, the BS's marriage failings should not be part of the discussion, as it only serves allow the WS to justify his or her actions.


Bizarre? How so? You have to deal with infidelity , whether you reconcile or divorce, unless, of course you ignore it. Don't you? Even in my case, after my divorce I still had to deal with the issues that were created by the affair. How was I supposed to do that, if I didn't know what had happened, and why?


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> So again I challenge you to provide threads where this happens. I have also been here for years and don't see this at all how you do. What strikes me is that it's not ganing up on the WS it's not letting them blame shift. You can never change your behavior till you recognize what you are doing wrong. Further I have seen the WS you quoted, and I agreed with , as being good posters call out WS who weren't taking accountability. So when they do it it's fine but when a Bs does it gets called shouted down. That's a problem.
> 
> Now I do agree name calling has no place here and agree sometimes people need to be banned to cool off. But if you post on a open forum that you are doing wrong they don't get to control the reaction they get not who gives it to them. Just doesn't work that way.
> 
> My opinion even if you give them a place... The WS grotto it would be about as useful as the men's clubhouse and women's clubhouse keeping the other gender out. Their are alternatives for private groups as I understand however and if WS have concerns they can contact directly through PM people who are like minded. I have had them contact me directly and BS alike. Both who wanted advice but didn't want to post in open forum. So those opportunities also exist
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have done so already. On this very thread. Some of the posters are so consumed by hate, that even a poster who advocates civility and courtesy is attacked. If you want names, just look them up yourself. I won't name, names, because I have already been banned for doing so.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> But that IS a valid perspective. If a couple is looking to reconcile their marriage in the face of infidelity, then any dysfunction that existed prior to the affair HAS to be dealt with AS WELL AS the affair, and it's nothing short of absolutely naive to think otherwise.
> 
> That said, the dysfunction and the affair need to be dealt with _separately_. Neither transgression erases or provides absolution for the other.
> 
> But waiting around for the WS to end his or her affair? No. Never.
> 
> F*ck that noise.


I agree completely with this. The marital problems need to be addressed, but not until after there has been a decision to reconcile, and the decision to reconcile should only be made after the WS has demonstrated the attitude changes needed by the BS. All of these should (as much as possible) be separate events.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That's fine with me. But difference between you and me is I can accept we don't see things the same.
> 
> For me the act of sex was horrible enough. But the thing that brought me to my knees was the months of lying, repeated deception, endangering my children, and constant disrespect that was shown. These things hurt me far more than the fact my x had sex with someone else
> 
> I'm not saying that I would have reconciled if it was just a one night stand with some stranger. But I may have been able to forgive her I couldn't do that now. So they are both wrong to me but the way it went down was far far worse than a one night stand.
> 
> I think that all BS have different thoughts on what hurt the most. That's natural
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, we will just have to disagree. I will not tolerate ANY infidelity, of any kind. But my main focus is prevention. I would like to hear from more WS's ,in order to gain a better perspective on how to "Affair Proof" my relationship. :grin2:I borrowed that expression from the Harley's.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I have done so already. On this very thread. Some of the posters are so consumed by hate, that even a poster who advocates civility and courtesy is attacked. If you want names, just look them up yourself. I won't name, names, because I have already been banned for doing so.


Well third time I have had this go around with you. I am not asking for names I am asking for threads. If this thread is your only example then you and I have very different definitions of shouting down and disrespect. I find much your posts the most disrespectful here
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Well, we will just have to disagree. I will not tolerate ANY infidelity, of any kind. But my main focus is prevention. I would like to hear from more WS's ,in order to gain a better perspective on how to "Affair Proof" my relationship. :grin2:I borrowed that expression from the Harley's.


no clue what the Harley's means but think we are all trying to affair proof our lives so to speak. Some look at it from the internal some as avoidance. You had a marriage you felt responsible for the demise in and then got cheated on. I picked a woman who has serious emotional issues and it was a ticking time bomb. It was really my constant deferring of self that kept that together for so long. So you look to understand relationships to avoid and I look at people who are capable and avoid. In the end we are on same road just getting to destination in very different ways
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> In my limited experience with DV, there seems to be a theme of codependency between both spouses. Having said that, the violence perpetrated by one upon the other is the choice and singular responsibility of the violent spouse. Which is why a spouse who has been abused must learn to recognize her tendency toward codependent relationships in order to avoid a second abusive match.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Gus but I have no intention of combing through a thousand posts to find the multitude of posts in which JLD's POV is ridiculed, picked apart, laughed at, and shot down by SEVERAL, as in 4-6 off the top of my head, other contributors. Why do they shoot her down? Because she is advocating that the BS fix his side of the street in order to save his marriage. Tsk tsk tsk JLD, this is not the TAMWay!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before I came to TAM and my marriage was lousy, I actually really wanted to have an affair. I wanted to know if I could get naked with another man. I wanted to know if other men might want me since my husband didn't seem too interested in me as a person. I really really wanted to have an affair!
> 
> What drove me to that point? My husband. Unquestionably my husband's lack of response to my pleas for ..whatever...made me desperate to know if it was me or him. Was I that unattractive? If my own husband couldn't say and do loving things was that my fault or his fault? I thought only an affair would help me understand an answer.
> 
> My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infidelity doesn't fall into 3 neat categories. Some times the marriage is crap, was crap, and it was the crappy marriage that provided fertile ground for an affair to happen. Fix the crappy marriage and maybe THEN the affair can be dealt with. But why bother dealing with the affair to go back to the same crappy marriage? That's the part that makes no sense to me.


AP, I'm sorry you were in so much pain. There is absolute no doubt in anyone's mind that both parties contribute to the downfall of a marriage. And I don't believe anyone here has ever said otherwise.

The issue I have with your assertion that the responsibility for your imaginary affair, or Rookies declaration of trying to "affair proof" his future relationship is that you cannot control what another human being does. 

AP, your husband contributed to your feelings of inadequacy and loneliness, but sweetie how you or any spouse responds to the stresses of a marriage is completely on you. Just like Rookie can't control the people in a future relationship, you can't. And if you think you can you are sadly mistaken. You absolutely can work on having a strong relationship with safe boundaries and effective communication. But no one can control another person's responses or actions. Rookie can control what he says, but he cannot control how others respond to his words. (Or when we chose to post-or why)

So when you say if you had an affair it would be on your H, no, it would be on you for choosing that response to a painful situation. We all have options and which one we choose has many factors to it.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Well third time I have had this go around with you. I am not asking for names I am asking for threads. If this thread is your only example then you and I have very different definitions of shouting down and disrespect. I find much your posts the most disrespectful here
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We DEFINITELY have far different ideas about what is civil and respectful, I will give you that much.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> no clue what the Harley's means but think we are all trying to affair proof our lives so to speak. Some look at it from the internal some as avoidance. You had a marriage you felt responsible for the demise in and then got cheated on. I picked a woman who has serious emotional issues and it was a ticking time bomb. It was really my constant deferring of self that kept that together for so long. So you look to understand relationships to avoid and I look at people who are capable and avoid. In the end we are on same road just getting to destination in very different ways
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually can get behind this post. After a LOT of years in the business community, I have only recently become interested in human behavior, so yes, I do look at ALL of my relationships with a much more critical eye , than I ever did before. I think that infidelity does that to you. It makes you aware of issues you never thought about, but it also teaches you valuable lessons that will help you in the future. that is why I have always said that I am much more interested in self improvement than I am in whether a marriage survives infidelity or not. For me, , the individual is the most important factor, the marriage is secondary.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> ...that even a poster who advocates civility and courtesy is attacked.


Advocates civility while at the exact same time lacks it himself. Ironic. And nobody has "attacked" you. You've been called out and busted for lying and hypocrisy - and for blameshifting to the BS.

For accusing people of "enforcing their moral code on others" in the very thread you created (not the first, either) in which you enforce your moral code on an entire community. Gosh.

Also flat out denying that you blameshift to the BS, and then get busted doing so with your own words...but then ignore it because you've been busted.

Tragic. If you were more honest, less hypocritical, less passive-aggressive, and didn't take every chance you get to try and make BS feel guilt for their WS cheating on them (again, there's an air of sadism in your thought process), you might get more traction here. Just a thought.


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> Gus, I'll answer tomorrow.


Actually, having just found this rich vein of absolute tripe, I'd say don't bother...



Anon Pink said:


> Before I came to TAM and my marriage was lousy, I actually really wanted to have an affair. I wanted to know if I could get naked with another man. I wanted to know if other men might want me since my husband didn't seem too interested in me as a person. I really really wanted to have an affair!
> 
> What drove me to that point? My husband. Unquestionably my husband's lack of response to my pleas for ..whatever...made me desperate to know if it was me or him. Was I that unattractive? If my own husband couldn't say and do loving things was that my fault or his fault? I thought only an affair would help me understand an answer.
> 
> My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. *But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.*


----------



## Wolf1974

GusPolinski said:


> Actually, having just found this rich vein of absolute tripe, I'd say don't bother...


Exactly. The all too typical WS mindset. They drove me to it. Some people can't handle the position of adult or the responsibility that comes with it. Some will justify anything
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

GusPolinski said:


> Actually, having just found this rich vein of absolute tripe, I'd say don't bother...


Agree 100& @GusPolinski - whether or not you cope with marital problems by having an affair is 100% on the cheater - the BS had nothing to do with that decision - no they did not help to aim the gun as was stated earlier in this thread....I think this is why true R is so rare - there are many, many people - waywards and non-waywards alike who truly believe the BS had a role to playin the affair..the BS gets it twice - they get the betrayal of the affair and then are told its all their fault...


----------



## carmen ohio

Anon Pink said:


> . . . Before I came to TAM and my marriage was lousy, I actually really wanted to have an affair. I wanted to know if I could get naked with another man. I wanted to know if other men might want me since my husband didn't seem too interested in me as a person. I really really wanted to have an affair!
> 
> What drove me to that point? My husband. Unquestionably my husband's lack of response to my pleas for ..whatever...made me desperate to know if it was me or him. Was I that unattractive? If my own husband couldn't say and do loving things was that my fault or his fault? I thought only an affair would help me understand an answer.
> 
> My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.


This argument makes about as much sense as:

_"Before I came to The Money Store my personal finances were lousy, I actually really wanted to rob my bank. I wanted to know if I could get stick a gun in a teller's face and demand money. I wanted to know if they she would give me the money since my own bank didn't seem too interested in me as a customer. I really really wanted to rob a bank! 

What drove me to that point? My bank. Unquestionably my bank's lack of response to my pleas for ...money...made me desperate to know if it was me or them. Was I that bad a credit risk? If my own bank wouldn't lend me money was that my fault or their fault? I thought only robbing them would help me understand an answer. 

My own issues prevented the possibility of a robbery. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my robbery would have been totally on them! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have rob the bank it would have been their doing."
_


> Infidelity doesn't fall into 3 neat categories. Some times the marriage is crap, was crap, and it was the crappy marriage that provided fertile ground for an affair to happen. Fix the crappy marriage and maybe THEN the affair can be dealt with. But why bother dealing with the affair to go back to the same crappy marriage? That's the part that makes no sense to me.


I agree that infidelity sometimes occurs in crappy marriages. But it is ass-backwards to suggest that, when this happens, one should first fix the marriage before dealing with the infidelity.

I've read hundreds of your posts AP and, while I sometimes disagree with what you say, you have proven yourself to be an intelligent and practical counselor. So, I don't think that even you entirely believe some of the things you're saying on this thread.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> You took my post out of context. There are only 2 schools of thought regarding reconciliation. Either you renew the marriage or settle for less. the third choice is divorce , which doesn't apply here. Of course there are thousands of stories, but you can only do one of two things , if you reconcile. You will find, if you look, that all reconciliations fall in one or the other or some combination of both. IMO.


Perhaps I did misunderstand you, but you were responding to the following:



Truthseeker1 said:


> But aren't their couples who reconcile everyday - and build a good marriage - believe me I'm not the reconcile at all costs - as you well know but i also think in some cases R is possible....if the WS pays the price and changes - cant the BS and the WS create a second marriage that is good for both of them? cant they both become better people? Is it rare - absolutely but I also think it is possible...


and you said:



Rookie4 said:


> . . . The jury is still out.
> There are two major schools of thought about this issue. School #1. That the amount of work that is required to reconcile, actually means that you are starting a completely new marriage...just with the same person.
> School#2 That you are settling for a less than good marriage, for a variety of reasons. Financial, lonliness, comfort, kids etc. So you talk yourself into believing that things are better.


The hypothetical jury is not _"still out"_ over the question of whether people can reconcile after infidelity. It happens all the time.

And I don't have a clue what you mean by

_"There are only 2 schools of thought regarding reconciliation. Either you renew the marriage or settle for less."_


----------



## Truthseeker1




----------



## Anon Pink

Pluto2 said:


> AP, I'm sorry you were in so much pain. There is absolute no doubt in anyone's mind that both parties contribute to the downfall of a marriage. And I don't believe anyone here has ever said otherwise.
> 
> The issue I have with your assertion that the responsibility for your imaginary affair, or Rookies declaration of trying to "affair proof" his future relationship is that you cannot control what another human being does.
> 
> AP, your husband contributed to your feelings of inadequacy and loneliness, but sweetie how you or any spouse responds to the stresses of a marriage is completely on you. Just like Rookie can't control the people in a future relationship, you can't. And if you think you can you are sadly mistaken. You absolutely can work on having a strong relationship with safe boundaries and effective communication. But no one can control another person's responses or actions. Rookie can control what he says, but he cannot control how others respond to his words. (Or when we chose to post-or why)
> 
> So when you say if you had an affair it would be on your H, no, it would be on you for choosing that response to a painful situation. We all have options and which one we choose has many factors to it.


Why did I come to a place where a choice had to be made? Yes I choose how I respond but why did I need to make that choice? Why was I finding myself wondering if I could go through with it? Why was I even thinking about it? 

Because my husband refused to respond, time after time after time.

"I want out of this marriage and away from you and here is why but if you want this marriage to work here is how." Time after time and after time....crickets....

So no, as I said we can argue till the cows some home. All he had to do was step the hell up and the question I was asking myself, "can I do this with another man?" would have gone away.

I'm happy to report that the question has gone away because he has stepped up and we are working toward an excellent marriage. But sometimes I'm still mad that I had to beat the crap out of him (figuratively speaking) before he decided to do some real work.

That's why I get gridcom's wife's anger and resentment. Hell I fantasized about doing exactly what she did. Have an affair and rub it in his face! I don't think it would have been very nice of me, pretty sh!tty actually. But anger makes us stupid and I'm glad I never went through with it. Hell I never even came close!


----------



## Truthseeker1

Anon Pink said:


> Why did I come to a place where a choice had to be made? Yes I choose how I respond but why did I need to make that choice? Why was I finding myself wondering if I could go through with it? Why was I even thinking about it?
> *
> Because my husband refused to respond, time after time after time*.
> 
> "I want out of this marriage and away from you and here is why but if you want this marriage to work here is how." Time after time and after time....crickets....
> 
> So no, as I said we can argue till the cows some home. All he had to do was step the hell up and the question I was asking myself, "can I do this with another man?" would have gone away.
> 
> I'm happy to report that the question has gone away because he has stepped up and we are working toward an excellent marriage. But sometimes I'm still mad that I had to beat the crap out of him (figuratively speaking) before he decided to do some real work.
> 
> That's why I get gridcom's wife's anger and resentment. Hell I fantasized about doing exactly what she did. Have an affair and rub it in his face! I don't think it would have been very nice of me, pretty sh!tty actually. But anger makes us stupid and I'm glad I never went through with it. Hell I never even came close!


No - because you allowed your mind to go there as some sort of resolution to your problems. Your H may have been a total jacka** but only YOU can decide how you will respond- just like gridcom's cheating wife...Anger is never a justification to cheat, to hit, to do anything destructive is it?


----------



## Anon Pink

carmen ohio said:


> This argument makes about as much sense as:
> 
> _"Before I came to The Money Store my personal finances were lousy, I actually really wanted to rob my bank. I wanted to know if I could get stick a gun in a teller's face and demand money. I wanted to know if they she would give me the money since my own bank didn't seem too interested in me as a customer. I really really wanted to rob a bank!
> 
> What drove me to that point? My bank. Unquestionably my bank's lack of response to my pleas for ...money...made me desperate to know if it was me or them. Was I that bad a credit risk? If my own bank wouldn't lend me money was that my fault or their fault? I thought only robbing them would help me understand an answer.
> 
> My own issues prevented the possibility of a robbery. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my robbery would have been totally on them! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have rob the bank it would have been their doing."
> _


Sorry but this doesn't work at all. A relationship between two people takes two people, is the responsibility of BOTH to maintain. Managing money is the responsibility of the person who owns the money.





> I agree that infidelity sometimes occurs in crappy marriages. But it is ass-backwards to suggest that, when this happens, one should first fix the marriage before dealing with the infidelity.
> 
> I've read hundreds of your posts AP and, while I sometimes disagree with what you say, you have proven yourself to be an intelligent and practical counselor. So, I don't think that even you entirely believe some of the things you're saying on this thread.


Well thank you I appreciate the kind words. Perhaps I failed to make my point clearly? I'm not suggesting the marriage be fixed and returned to a state of harmony and tranquility. But if the problems in the marriage aren't identified and owned by the appropriate person, there is no reason to reconcile because it's all going to go down hill again.

The insistence that the WS show appropriate remorse, do all the heavy lifting etc is what bothers me in some cases, not all. Sometimes the BS was a lousy spouse and he or she needs to own their stink and clean up their side of the street BEFORE the heavy lifting of rebuilding can take place.

The wife who was sexually repressed and denied her husband who ended up having a string of ONS. Frankly, if the guy did everything possible to help his wife and she refused and refused and refused, I personally don't blame the guy! Before this guy reconciles and does ANY heavy lifting his wife has to OWN her sexual repression and she has to OWN the requirement to fix it! Her husband tried for years and years now it's all on her to fix her side of the street BEFORE her husband should do any heavy lifting to reconcile. Because if his wife isn't owning her issues and cleaning up her side of the street this poor husband is simply signing on for more of the same!

Maybe this is why so many TAM CWI people urge divorce? Because they don't wanna look at their side of the street. It's a lot easier to put all the blame on the WS then to look at your side of the street.

I'm not suggesting this is true in every sitch, but I think it's true in a lot of situations and I think it's a shame this facet of healing is so over looked.


----------



## Anon Pink

Truthseeker1 said:


> No - because you allowed your mind to go there as some sort of resolution to your problems. Your H may have been a total jacka** but only YOU can decide how you will respond- just like gridcom's cheating wife...Anger is never a justification to cheat, to hit, to do anything destructive is it?



Allowed my mind to go there...? Seriously? Are you now suggesting that all those fantasies and day dreams of having an affair and learning I could get naked with another man were also some form of cheating? B!tch Please.


I'm pretty sure I've never used the word justified. That word doesn't fit into this discussion at all and word choice is pretty important here. I've seen many a rebuttal using the word "justified" but the comment the spurred the word had nothing to do with justification.

I never suggested I was justified in thinking about having an affair. I said it was my H's fault, but that's not the same as justified. 

A relationship takes two people working together. When one ignores the others MANY attempts to fix the relationship what message is being sent? "You don't matter to me. Your hurt and pain don't matter to me. Staying the way I am is more important to me than you are."

Cause and effect are always in play in relationships. Justification is rarely in play. We need what we need and there is no justification for what we need. You're never justified for needing something, but you sure have the right to need whatever it is that you need.

So let's take "justified" out of the equation?


----------



## Anon Pink

GusPolinski said:


> Actually, having just found this rich vein of absolute tripe, I'd say don't bother...


Nice Gus, real nice. This would be the example of the drive by snide remark. Just vague enough to not be tagged as an insult but CLEARLY meant to be insulting.


How about you grow a pair and say what's really on your mind instead?


----------



## Anon Pink

Truthseeker1 said:


> Agree 100& @GusPolinski - whether or not you cope with marital problems by having an affair is 100% on the cheater - the BS had nothing to do with that decision - no they did not help to aim the gun as was stated earlier in this thread....I think this is why true R is so rare - there are many, many people - waywards and non-waywards alike who *truly believe the BS had a role to playin the affair..t*he BS gets it twice - they get the betrayal of the affair and then are told its all their fault...


I thought I was done with this thread but I had to comment on this.

This is so completely false it's funny. So the man who's wife refuses to have sex even though he has moved heaven and earth to make her happy and find out how to get her comfortable with sex...his wife played NO ROLE in the affair? Laughing laughing laughing laughing. You are so wrong it's sad.


----------



## Pluto2

Anon Pink said:


> Why did I come to a place where a choice had to be made? Yes I choose how I respond but why did I need to make that choice? Why was I finding myself wondering if I could go through with it? Why was I even thinking about it?
> 
> Because my husband refused to respond, time after time after time.
> 
> "I want out of this marriage and away from you and here is why but if you want this marriage to work here is how." Time after time and after time....crickets....
> 
> So no, as I said we can argue till the cows some home. All he had to do was step the hell up and the question I was asking myself, "can I do this with another man?" would have gone away.
> 
> I'm happy to report that the question has gone away because he has stepped up and we are working toward an excellent marriage. But sometimes I'm still mad that I had to beat the crap out of him (figuratively speaking) before he decided to do some real work.
> 
> That's why I get gridcom's wife's anger and resentment. Hell I fantasized about doing exactly what she did. Have an affair and rub it in his face! I don't think it would have been very nice of me, pretty sh!tty actually. But anger makes us stupid and I'm glad I never went through with it. Hell I never even came close!


Nope.

You had to make those choices because you and your H were in a bad place in your relationship-and I am sincerely happy you aren't there any longer. 

Sorry, but your H, no matter what he was or wasn't doing didn't secretly plant any ideas in your brain. Those were yours. Was it understandable why you were thinking about sex, yes. But still unless you are under some mind control, the thoughts were yours. Lots of people have thoughts they never act upon because they understand the consequences of their actions. You did, otherwise you likely would have gone out and had that A. Had you actually had an affair, we would have a different conversation. 

But you didn't. So you don't know if you would have contacted the slightly ****ty neighbor, or a co-worker, or gone to a bar and picked up a dude. You don't know if you would have gone to the alley, or a hotel room or your marital bed when your H was gone. You don't know how you would have actually reacted-had you acted. Because AP, you CHOSE not to.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Anon Pink said:


> Allowed my mind to go there...? Seriously? Are you now suggesting that all those fantasies and day dreams of having an affair and learning I could get naked with another man were also some form of cheating? B!tch Please.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've never used the word justified. That word doesn't fit into this discussion at all and word choice is pretty important here. I've seen many a rebuttal using the word "justified" but the comment the spurred the word had nothing to do with justification.
> 
> I never suggested I was justified in thinking about having an affair. I said it was my H's fault, but that's not the same as justified.
> 
> A relationship takes two people working together. When one ignores the others MANY attempts to fix the relationship what message is being sent? "You don't matter to me. Your hurt and pain don't matter to me. Staying the way I am is more important to me than you are."
> 
> Cause and effect are always in play in relationships. Justification is rarely in play. We need what we need and there is no justification for what we need. You're never justified for needing something, but you sure have the right to need whatever it is that you need.
> 
> So let's take "justified" out of the equation?


Keep making excuses...your choice - you cheat - you chose to...dont blame other people for your sh!tty choices or the sh!tty choices you thought about...how many people in sh!tty marriages dont cheat? Huh...enough with this...its just silly now...like kids on a playground...


----------



## Truthseeker1

Anon Pink said:


> I thought I was done with this thread but I had to comment on this.
> 
> This is so completely false it's funny. So the man who's wife refuses to have sex even though he has moved heaven and earth to make her happy and find out how to get her comfortable with sex...his wife played NO ROLE in the affair? Laughing laughing laughing laughing. You are so wrong it's sad.


He has a choice - divorce or separation - the only role the BS has in in the reasons for the divorce or separation not because her H went and shagged his secretary...actually i'm not the sad one here...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Anon Pink said:


> I thought I was done with this thread but I had to comment on this.
> 
> This is so completely false it's funny. So the man who's wife refuses to have sex even though he has moved heaven and earth to make her happy and find out how to get her comfortable with sex...his wife played NO ROLE in the affair? Laughing laughing laughing laughing. You are so wrong it's sad.




Lets say a husband was abusive and the wife cheated, it is all her fault. Now lets say she committed suicide, it is her fault. After all, she was the one who pulled the trigger. Of course her husband had nothing to do with her mental and emotional well-being.

Reminds me that it was my own fault for trying to commit suicide, and not the fault of being beaten, told I was worthless, wish I was never born, that he rather be dead than be my father,and years and years upon that had nothing to do with my state of mind.

It is the victim's fault when they retaliate against a bully, or commit suicide. The bully did not control the actions of the victim.

So, everyone will feel sorry for the wife if she kills herself, but then feel sorry for the husband if she cheated.

Do people honestly think I would have cared about my father if my mother cheated and left him. He nearly killed her when he threw a hammer at her head. She would be better off if she did cheat and leave, at least I would not be left with all these emotional scars. A little closer to her head, and the odds of her head caving in would have been it. Sometimes I understand the cheater like Daydream, and would feel little sympathy for your husband Anon. Ther truth of the matter is, others affect our state of mind. Extreme levels of emotions causes the judgement portion of our brain to function less. Because others action destroy our love and bond that we have towards them. I personally do not care if my views are popular or not. Actions taken by one partner can cause a change in another. Some are okay on this site if the BS behaves abusively, justifying their actions. It is even posted, WS may have to take the abuse of their partner for a while.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> I thought I was done with this thread but I had to comment on this.
> 
> This is so completely false it's funny. So the man who's wife refuses to have sex even though he has moved heaven and earth to make her happy and find out how to get her comfortable with sex...his wife played NO ROLE in the affair? Laughing laughing laughing laughing. You are so wrong it's sad.


No his wife played a major role in the bad marriage. The affair was completely his choice. Again two completely separate things. Should these two try and reconcile they will have 2 issues to work on. The infidelity by him and the neglect from her. But for most BS the when all they hear is you drove me to it, that's blameshifting 101. What becomes the more common sense approach is I was unhappy and I made a terrible choice. playing the victim role rarely adds up. And the successful WS who understands this have had successful reconciliations and have posted such on here. Those who don't will never get it and generally end up divorced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anon Pink

They are not completely separate because one would not happen but for the other happening. They are relational, interdependent even.

"I was unhappy...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."

That's not blame shifting. That's reality.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> I'm doing quite well on that end, actually. Anger towards exww is gone. I'm not really looking to be in a relationship, but that's more because I'm enjoying being single and not having the responsibility. Admittedly I'm not all the way there yet, but well down the path.
> 
> But no matter how healed I am, I'll never cease calling bull**** when I see it. That's just my nature. Always has been.


For me, the need to show that everything was my wife's fault was really about proving that it wasn't mine. To myself mostly. As I worked through things I was able to get a more nuanced perspective. The need to blame her became less.

I read the words you write, and I interpret them through the lens of where my headspace would have been had I written such words.

That's not bull***. It is either that we have different perspectives generally (which is reasonable) or that I have worked through some things that you haven't. But you did describe some of your reactions to Rookie as "triggering". All I did was took you at your word.

If you cannot routinely think about the affair without anger and hurt, then I think your journey is ongoing.


----------



## Wazza

Wolf1974 said:


> No his wife played a major role in the bad marriage. The affair was completely his choice. Again two completely separate things. Should these two try and reconcile they will have 2 issues to work on. The infidelity by him and the neglect from her. But for most BS the when all they hear is you drove me to it, that's blameshifting 101. What becomes the more common sense approach is I was unhappy and I made a terrible choice. playing the victim role rarely adds up. And the successful WS who understands this have had successful reconciliations and have posted such on here. Those who don't will never get it and generally end up divorced.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"You drove me to it, it's your fault" is the statement of a wayward who's probably not owning their sh1t.

"I was unhappy and I made a terrible choice" shows a wayward who probably is.

If that's what you are saying, I agree, and I think you have captured it very well. Though in the threads I have seen, the waywards often have a foot in each of those camps.


----------



## Pluto2

Wazza said:


> "You drove me to it, it's your fault" is the statement of a wayward who's probably not owning their sh1t.


Exactly why having a safe warm cocoon thread just for WS will not serve them well.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Pluto2 said:


> Exactly why having a safe warm cocoon thread just for WS will not serve them well.


Amen!!!!


----------



## Wazza

Pluto2 said:


> Exactly why having a safe warm cocoon thread just for WS will not serve them well.


But you need to take my whole post for context.

There are some WS who are not relationship material. Nothing you can do for them. But there are others you can help. Which I think was Rookie's point.


----------



## Pluto2

Wazza said:


> But you need to take my whole post for context.
> 
> There are some WS who are not relationship material. Nothing you can do for them. But there are others you can help. Which I think was Rookie's point.


I don't disagree that there are some WS who make fine relationship material. Rookie seeks a BS-free zone for WS. That is what I think will not help. A free flow of ideas will serve BS and WS better. 

I've never been a fan of segregation.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Anon Pink said:


> "*I was unhappy*...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."


Okay, this is idiotic. If you're unhappy, what exactly do you expect someone else to do about it? Why is your 'unhappiness' on anyone else but you? Why can't you address your unhappiness yourself? You're an adult aren't you, behave like one. If you're unhappy, feeling unfillfilled, bored or you're just a miserable and unhappy person then you do something about that. Take up activities or interests that bring you joy and meaning to your life, change occupations, divorce your spouse, find out why you're unhappy, see a f****** therapist?

How does being unfaithful to one's spouse solve the issues of the marriage and why you're unhappy? How does it help the marriage?.. or anyone except the two entitled people deceiving and lying to the people in their lives.



Anon Pink said:


> The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."


The affair would never have happened if the adulterer was mature, had good life skills, developed better coping skills and wasn't an entitled, self-absorbed teenager.



Anon Pink said:


> That's not blame shifting. That's reality.


If the marriage is SO bad that you have NO other option but to cheat (to lie, manipulate, deceive, to be unfaithful to the person you chose and swore to honour and respect) then you might as well leave it first.
It is blame-shifting because your perceived reason/excuse to cheat was because *you* were unhappy, and due to *your* immaturity, *your* self-absorption, *your* narrow-minded focus on *your* self-gratification, and *your* inability to recognize and address *your* issues. If you being unhapppy is reason enough to cheat, than at any time your spouse feels unhappy they too can cheat on you for that very reason.

Anyone who uses the 'I was unhappy and you didn't do anything about it so I cheated' excuses is juvenile, entitled, selfish, emotionally immature and shouldn't be in a committed relationship with anyone.

If you truly believe that your unhappiness justifies your affair, tell your spouse that if they at some point find themselves feeling unhappy, they are permitted to cheat. I'm serious, let them know and make sure they believe you and see it as a legitimate option.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> "You drove me to it, it's your fault" is the statement of a wayward who's probably not owning their sh1t.
> 
> "I was unhappy and I made a terrible choice" shows a wayward who probably is.
> 
> If that's what you are saying, I agree, and I think you have captured it very well. Though in the threads I have seen, the waywards often have a foot in each of those camps.


Exactly. One shows reality as AP states the other is head in the cloud Blame shifting.. Makes me sick just as all the times I hear

She pushed me to it
She Was talking back
She wasn't listening
I saw it as a child and it's not that bad
Ohh come on I barely hit her
It was only an accident
Insert BUll **** excuse here on why he gave her a smack

Those who claim they were pushed to do something wrong are justifiers. Most of the WS I see here are of that mindset as I have seen and experienced in real life


In the end it really comes down to personal accountability. You either take ownership for your crap or you don't.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> They are not completely separate because one would *not happen* but for the other happening. They are relational, interdependent even.
> 
> "I was unhappy...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."
> 
> That's not blame shifting. That's reality.


also not true. 

I have had one friend and one colleague both who lost marriages to infidelity. Both had one night stands, one was a business trip the other a guys night out. Both freely admit that they ****ed up but both were happy in thier realtionships to that point. Both made bad choices, both were held accountable, both lost realtionships cause of it. One didn't care ultimately and just started dating again til he found his new wife. The other is totally other story and years tried to reconcile to no end.

When you blindly throw out an Equation of bad marriage = infidelity then it doesn't take into account situations like this or situations where bad marriages exist yet no cheating occurs. The reason no cheating occurs is choice made by the individual.

Same as a guy who is desperate for money so he robs a convienance store. Sure he was in a situation of being desperate but he Chose to rob.... Plenty of other people will make the other choice to not do that


----------



## nursejackie

locke stratos- said perfectly (i don't know how to quote your last post in this)

But it takes a lot to get to that realization. No one wants to hold up a mirror to their unflattering side. 

That is why it is important to not have a separate place for waywards to post. They need to read all the view points from the BS in order to begin to examine their own behaviour out from under all the self serving rationalizations they have told themselves. 

It is very comforting to think your infidelity was caused by someone else's behaviour. You have to take that comfort away to drive the point home.


----------



## Anon Pink

Locke.Stratos said:


> Okay, this is idiotic. If you're unhappy, what exactly do you expect someone else to do about it? Why is your 'unhappiness' on anyone else but you? Why can't you address your unhappiness yourself? You're an adult aren't you, behave like one. If you're unhappy, feeling unfillfilled, bored or you're just a miserable and unhappy person then you do something about that. Take up activities or interests that bring you joy and meaning to your life, change occupations, divorce your spouse, find out why you're unhappy, see a f****** therapist?


I don't know if you ever leave CWI but TAM is filled with threads about a crappy marriage and how unhappy the original poster is. Rarely is the OP told "you're an adult so do something about your unhappiness." 

Nope they're given all sort of ideas about ways to understand and approach their spouse about working together to fix the relationship.

As usual, my point is completely missed. I'm not justifying infidelity. My point is that TAMWay never allows for the state of the relationship to have a role in the affair. My point is that in SOME situations, the lousy state of the marriage allowed the affair to go from fleeting thought to an acceptable alternative.



> How does being unfaithful to one's spouse solve the issues of the marriage and why you're unhappy? How does it help the marriage?.. or anyone except the two entitled people deceiving and lying to the people in their lives.


It doesn't. And I never suggested that it did. 




> The affair would never have happened if the adulterer was mature, had good life skills, developed better coping skills and wasn't an entitled, self-absorbed teenager.


In some situations yes this is true. But not in all situations, as I've been saying over and over and over.




> If the marriage is SO bad that you have NO other option but to cheat (to lie, manipulate, deceive, to be unfaithful to the person you chose and swore to honour and respect) then you might as well leave it first.
> It is blame-shifting because your perceived reason/excuse to cheat was because *you* were unhappy, and due to *your* immaturity, *your* self-absorption, *your* narrow-minded focus on *your* self-gratification, and *your* inability to recognize and address *your* issues. If you being unhapppy is reason enough to cheat, than at any time your spouse feels unhappy they too can cheat on you for that very reason.


I think you have me confused with your cheating spouse. I also think you should actually read what I write rather than jump to conclusions.



> Anyone who uses the 'I was unhappy and you didn't do anything about it so I cheated' excuses is juvenile, entitled, selfish, emotionally immature and shouldn't be in a committed relationship with anyone.
> 
> If you truly believe that your unhappiness justifies your affair, tell your spouse that if they at some point find themselves feeling unhappy, they are permitted to cheat. I'm serious, let them know and make sure they believe you and see it as a legitimate option.


Again with the word justified? Again the word excuse? Can any of you see beyond your own hurt to step out of your sitch and into someone else's?

This post is a perfect example of why WS get run out of TAM. Locke is not responding to the actual words I've written. Locke is reacting to the general idea as interpreted by others and Locke is projecting the pain of his wife's affair into this thread rather than actually discuss the ideas actually present as they are actually presented.


----------



## Pluto2

Wow, its a good thing people don't judge here, or us "hurting BS" wouldn't be able to reach out to diddly or ever go to other threads.........

I'm out.
Perhaps I'll go harass the folks in the reconciliation thread and tell them they are doing it all wrong.


----------



## Anon Pink

Wolf1974 said:


> When you blindly throw out an Equation of bad marriage = infidelity then it doesn't take into account situations like this or situations where bad marriages exist yet no cheating occurs. The reason no cheating occurs is choice made by the individual.


Please quote where I blindly threw out any equation?

It is the TAMWay that doesn't take into account the multiple possible dynamics that are present in a marriage that might or might not have led to the affair.



> Same as a guy who is desperate for money so he robs a convienance store. Sure he was in a situation of being desperate but he Chose to rob.... Plenty of other people will make the other choice to not do that


Seriously? Again with the money and robbing a bank analogy? It doesn't fit, okay? Do you get that? A marriage is not like a budget, or the ability to manage money. A marriage is two interdependent people who are supposed to not only forsake all others but are supposed to work TOGETHER so each spouse has enough of their needs met. Do you get how managing your money isn't at all similar to managing your relationship?


----------



## Truthseeker1

*And around and around we go.....*


----------



## GusPolinski

Normally I stay out of Rookie's threads. Or, at the very least, I refrain from posting in them. Or posting much. I mean... most of the time there's just no point. It's just a bunch of back and forth that has nothing to do w/ any particular instance of infidelity, and the thread eventually gets locked or deleted. In one particular thread, I spent hours not only debating and communicating my own perspective, but also sharing more of my own story than I've ever shared, and just when I thought that I'd reached some sort of breakthrough... the thread gets deleted.

Aaaaanyway...



Anon Pink said:


> Nice Gus, real nice. This would be the example of the drive by snide remark. Just vague enough to not be tagged as an insult but CLEARLY meant to be insulting.


It would've been a "drive by" only if I'd had no intention of elaborating.

As for it being insulting? Sorry, but I couldn't find a way to call bullsh*t _ON your bullsh*t_ and have it smell like a rose garden.



Anon Pink said:


> How about you grow a pair and say what's really on your mind instead?


LOL. You're gonna have to do a lot better than that.


----------



## Anon Pink

Well Gus it obviously worked because you came back without the one line snide remark and actually elaborated ...to some degree.

Perhaps you should go back to staying out of Rookie's threads since they present such a challenge to you?


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> I thought I was done with this thread but I had to comment on this.
> 
> This is so completely false it's funny. So the man who's wife refuses to have sex even though he has moved heaven and earth to make her happy and find out how to get her comfortable with sex...his wife played NO ROLE in the affair? Laughing laughing laughing laughing. You are so wrong it's sad.


Nope. She didn't.

Now, does she bear some responsibility for her role in creating the type of marital environment in which her husband could reasonably be expected to cheat? Absolutely, yes.

But there IS a distinction, and I'd argue that anyone who can't or refuses to see it is possessed of a rather conditional morality.

He had a choice, and he made it. He cheated for one reason and one reason only -- _because he WANTED to cheat_. Now, was his decision to cheat influenced by his desire for the physical affection that he wasn't getting at home? Yeah. Duh. But to get that affection, he had to cheat, he KNEW he had to cheat, and so he cheated.

So, again, if the marriage is to be reconciled (properly, anyway) once the affair has been discovered, then both transgressions have to be addressed, and SEPARATELY.

As for neglect...? No one neglects his or her spouse in secret. Hell, the only way for that to even _kinda_ happen is for the spouse feeling neglected to NOT communicate feeling neglected. And if that's the case, guess who's to blame?

Feeling neglected in your marriage? Fair enough. Communicate that in a _meaningful_ way so that the signal doesn't get lost in the noise. Any failure to do that -- along w/ communicating that _continued_ neglect will result in a dealbreaker -- falls upon the spouse crying neglect.

And if you've done ^this^, and nothing has changed, and you're _still_ feeling neglected, and you're _still_ hanging around... well, you bear some responsibility for that as well.

So, unless the aforementioned husband informed his wife _prior to cheating_ that he was GOING to cheat, there's no way to compare the neglect to the infidelity.

And that's exactly where the comparison starts to falls apart -- in the lies.

Hell, even people in open or poly relationships -- people who are 100% comfortable sharing their spouses w/ others -- find their spouses in affairs w/ others, and they'll tell you that what hurts them is the lies.


----------



## GusPolinski

Anon Pink said:


> Well Gus it obviously worked because you came back without the one line snide remark and actually elaborated ...to some degree.
> 
> Perhaps you should go back to staying out of Rookie's threads since they present such a challenge to you?


Keep reading.


----------



## Anon Pink

GusPolinski said:


> Now, does she bear some responsibility for her role in creating the type of marital environment in which her husband could reasonably be expected to cheat? Absolutely, yes.



And there you have it. The singular point I have been trying to make. Thank you!


----------



## Truthseeker1

Anon Pink said:


> And there you have it. The singular point I have been trying to make. Thank you!


But cheating is still 100% on the cheater - the BS has nothing to do with how the WS copes with marital difficulties - a point the rest of us were trying to make...


----------



## carmen ohio

Anon Pink said:


> Sorry but this doesn't work at all. A relationship between two people takes two people, is the responsibility of BOTH to maintain. Managing money is the responsibility of the person who owns the money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well thank you I appreciate the kind words. Perhaps I failed to make my point clearly? I'm not suggesting the marriage be fixed and returned to a state of harmony and tranquility. But if the problems in the marriage aren't identified and owned by the appropriate person, there is no reason to reconcile because it's all going to go down hill again.
> 
> The insistence that the WS show appropriate remorse, do all the heavy lifting etc is what bothers me in some cases, not all. Sometimes the BS was a lousy spouse and he or she needs to own their stink and clean up their side of the street BEFORE the heavy lifting of rebuilding can take place.
> 
> The wife who was sexually repressed and denied her husband who ended up having a string of ONS. Frankly, if the guy did everything possible to help his wife and she refused and refused and refused, I personally don't blame the guy! Before this guy reconciles and does ANY heavy lifting his wife has to OWN her sexual repression and she has to OWN the requirement to fix it! Her husband tried for years and years now it's all on her to fix her side of the street BEFORE her husband should do any heavy lifting to reconcile. Because if his wife isn't owning her issues and cleaning up her side of the street this poor husband is simply signing on for more of the same!
> 
> Maybe this is why so many TAM CWI people urge divorce? Because they don't wanna look at their side of the street. It's a lot easier to put all the blame on the WS then to look at your side of the street.
> 
> I'm not suggesting this is true in every sitch, but I think it's true in a lot of situations and I think it's a shame this facet of healing is so over looked.


AP,

Regarding your first point, I agree that maintaining a relation is the responsibility of both parties. I don't agree that one party failing to provide the other with what he or she wants serves as a license for the deprived party to cheat. I subscribe to the view that there is no excuse for cheating as long as the would be cheater has the option of ending the marriage.

Regarding your second point, I agree that if reconciliation is to be successful the parties must address any major relationship problems. But this is true for all marriages -- successful marriage partners own, confront and resolve their problems.

I also agree that there can be situations in which a marriage is so flawed that the wayward spouse would be justified ending it rather than attempting to reconcile. However, that does not, IMO, justify the wayward spouse's decision to cheat in the first place. Moreover, in such cases, I think the cheating spouse still bears the responsibility of helping the betrayed spouse heal from his or her betrayal.

I would also point out that most cheaters are so prone to rewrite history and demonizing their betrayed partners in order to justify their deceit and betrayal that it is only prudent to be skeptical when excuses are offered. Thus, when a wayward comes on TAM/CWI for help and starts to make noises that his or her spouse is partly to blame for the affair, I think it proper that posters grill the OP on the issue in order to get at the truth and get the OP to realize the importance of owning his or her decision to cheat.

I think this important and proper, not just because cheaters shouldn't be allowed to _'get away with it,'_ but because it is necessary in order truly help the wayward. I strongly believe in the importance of calling each other out and holding each other accountable for our misdeeds, and of being willing to admit to our mistakes and to apologize and make amends for them.

In any event, based on what you said just now, I suspect that you and I aren't so far apart _'in theory'_ on this issue, although we might interpret particular situations somewhat differently.


----------



## Wolf1974

Anon Pink said:


> Please quote where I blindly threw out any equation?
> 
> *Lol I already did. You said affair wouldn't happen if not for a bad marriage*
> 
> It is the TAMWay that doesn't take into account the multiple possible dynamics that are present in a marriage that might or might not have led to the affair.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? Again with the money and robbing a bank analogy? It doesn't fit, okay? Do you get that? A marriage is not like a budget, or the ability to manage money. A marriage is two interdependent people who are supposed to not only forsake all others but are supposed to work TOGETHER so each spouse has enough of their needs met. Do you get how managing your money isn't at all similar to managing your relationship?
> 
> *Why doesn't it fit cause you don't think so....it shows that when it comes down to it choice that one person makes... No matter affair , spousal abuse, robbing a bank. All of it is about a choice someone makes regardless of thier circumstances.*


----------



## Truthseeker1

Anon Pink said:


> My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. *But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him!* Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.


Plus this was your original point..which is not what Gus said in his post....that if you cheated your affair was 100% your H's fault...that is some serious blameshifting...

I have a question if somewhere down the lin your marriage sours again and your H cheats, is that going to be partly your fault?


----------



## Heatherknows

GusPolinski said:


> Nope. She didn't.
> 
> Now, does she bear some responsibility for her role in creating the type of marital environment in which her husband could reasonably be expected to cheat? Absolutely, yes.
> 
> But there IS a distinction, and I'd argue that anyone who can't or refuses to see it is possessed of a rather conditional morality.
> 
> He had a choice, and he made it. He cheated for one reason and one reason only -- _because he WANTED to cheat_. Now, was his decision to cheat influenced by his desire for the physical affection that he wasn't getting at home? Yeah. Duh. But to get that affection, he had to cheat, he KNEW he had to cheat, and so he cheated.
> 
> So, again, if the marriage is to be reconciled (properly, anyway) once the affair has been discovered, then both transgressions have to be addressed, and SEPARATELY.
> 
> As for neglect...? No one neglects his or her spouse in secret. Hell, the only way for that to even _kinda_ happen is for the spouse feeling neglected to NOT communicate feeling neglected. And if that's the case, guess who's to blame?
> 
> Feeling neglected in your marriage? Fair enough. Communicate that in a _meaningful_ way so that the signal doesn't get lost in the noise. Any failure to do that -- along w/ communicating that _continued_ neglect will result in a dealbreaker -- falls upon the spouse crying neglect.
> 
> And if you've done ^this^, and nothing has changed, and you're _still_ feeling neglected, and you're _still_ hanging around... well, you bear some responsibility for that as well.
> 
> So, unless the aforementioned husband informed his wife _prior to cheating_ that he was GOING to cheat, there's no way to compare the neglect to the infidelity.
> 
> And that's exactly where the comparison starts to falls apart -- in the lies.
> 
> Hell, even people in open or poly relationships -- people who are 100% comfortable sharing their spouses w/ others -- find their spouses in affairs w/ others, and they'll tell you that what hurts them is the lies.


Marriage is difficult and I don't think one person can meet all your needs but if you want to be faithful and have an honest marriage you'll need to come to terms with NOT having some needs met and make peace with it.


----------



## carmen ohio

Mr.Fisty said:


> Lets say a husband was abusive and the wife cheated, it is all her fault. Now lets say she committed suicide, it is her fault. After all, she was the one who pulled the trigger. Of course her husband had nothing to do with her mental and emotional well-being.


Mr. Fisty,

The problem with this type of thinking is that it can be use to justify a host of wrong and even evil behavior.

Nearly everybody that commits a crime can point to something in his or her experience that contributed in some way to the commission of the crime. Nevertheless, people recognized eons ago that such excuses must be rejected if society is to function.

Consider the case of Nazi Germany. It is beyond dispute that the action of the victorious nations at the end of WW1 contributed mightily to the economic collapse that happened in Germany in the 1920s, and that this experience so traumatized the German people that they became receptive to Nazi propaganda and desenstitized to the suffering of persecuted minorities. Nevertheless, most would reject -- and rightly so -- any suggestion that the atrocities the Germans committed in WW2 were not their fault and theirs alone.

Ultimately, the flaw in your line of thinking is that it absolves people of the responsibility to make moral choices. Yes, we can all point to someone else's actions as having played a role in our wrong decisions but, no, we can't rely on these to escape responsibility for those decisions.

It all comes down to a simple truth that we teach children: two wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Truthseeker1 said:


> But cheating is still 100% on the cheater - the BS has nothing to do with how the WS copes with marital difficulties - a point the rest of us were trying to make...




Just like an abuse victim can choose suicide. Also, depending on circumstance, isn't neglect and emotional abandonment also considered betrayal but when infidelity is involved, the first betrayal is minimized.

Even so, when it comes to a walk-away spouse situation, then the main focus tends to be on the BS, or should I state potential BS depending on circumstances. Whether the spouse chooses to leave or cheat, the main focus will shift depending on each case.

There was a thread where the poster cheated on her husband. Her husband has a history of alcoholism, abuse, and neglect. His ex-wife cheated on him, his ex-gf cheated on him, and some left before they cheated on him. Either he has no affect on their state of mind and he picks badly, or his actions affect their state of mind, destroying the bond and the need to protect it. As usual, posters attacked her first, and then when he became really abusive and cheats himself, then they have sympathy for her when she experienced this in the past, minus the cheating.

Even so, if a potential BS is knowingly causing the potential WS mental and emotional harm, why not do the right thing and get help or leave themselves.

It reminds me of people ignoring their issues, not wanting to admit that they are flawed until a catastrophic event occurs.

Like someone eating junk food, knowing that they have blood pressure and cholesterol issues, choose to ignore it until they suffer a heart attack. People behave that way in relationships all the time. If they do not acknowledge it, then it is not an issue.

I think context is highly important. Like an abuse victim suffering stockholm syndrome and cheat on their spouse with someone who shows them love and affection.

Do not get me wrong, I think cheating is a terrible idea. It complicates and makes things worse. Even if a WS was remorseful, and the BS continues neglectful and/or abusive behavior, soon the focus would shift to the BS again.

Some on here condone that the WS put up with abuse from the BS if it occurs. Why, because the infidelity affected the mental and emotional stability of the BS. So then to some on here, it is okay for the lashing, but the WS is told to ignore the betrayal and not get angry for the neglect. Somehow, infidelity supersede everything that happen prior. So why does not the BS choose to leave before his actions will be abusive, just like the WS can leave before they cheat? When the WS acts out their pain in the form of infidelity, posters crucify them. There is little talk about the WS suffering from a thousand cuts instead of one stab. Look back at most thread. The BS is nearly exempt and posters will keep attacking the WS even if the BS admits that they wronged the WS. Most will back the BS even if they admitted that they made their spouse feel like nothing because of their own issues. They will try and convince the BS that the WS is worthless, and so it may reaffirm that the actions prior before the infidelity is justified. Worthless before and worthless now.

Again, for me, and some, context is important in a matter that may not be simplistic.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Mr.Fisty said:


> Just like an abuse victim can choose suicide. Also, depending on circumstance, isn't neglect and emotional abandonment also considered betrayal but when infidelity is involved, the first betrayal is minimized.
> 
> Even so, when it comes to a walk-away spouse situation, then the main focus tends to be on the BS, or should I state potential BS depending on circumstances. Whether the spouse chooses to leave or cheat, the main focus will shift depending on each case.
> 
> There was a thread where the poster cheated on her husband. Her husband has a history of alcoholism, abuse, and neglect. His ex-wife cheated on him, his ex-gf cheated on him, and some left before they cheated on him. Either he has no affect on their state of mind and he picks badly, or his actions affect their state of mind, destroying the bond and the need to protect it. As usual, posters attacked her first, and then when he became really abusive and cheats himself, then they have sympathy for her when she experienced this in the past, minus the cheating.
> 
> Even so, if a potential BS is knowingly causing the potential WS mental and emotional harm, why not do the right thing and get help or leave themselves.
> 
> It reminds me of people ignoring their issues, not wanting to admit that they are flawed until a catastrophic event occurs.
> 
> Like someone eating junk food, knowing that they have blood pressure and cholesterol issues, choose to ignore it until they suffer a heart attack. People behave that way in relationships all the time. If they do not acknowledge it, then it is not an issue.
> 
> I think context is highly important. Like an abuse victim suffering stockholm syndrome and cheat on their spouse with someone who shows them love and affection.
> 
> Do not get me wrong, I think cheating is a terrible idea. It complicates and makes things worse. Even if a WS was remorseful, and the BS continues neglectful and/or abusive behavior, soon the focus would shift to the BS again.
> 
> Some on here condone that the WS put up with abuse from the BS if it occurs. Why, because the infidelity affected the mental and emotional stability of the BS. So then to some on here, it is okay for the lashing, but the WS is told to ignore the betrayal and not get angry for the neglect. Somehow, infidelity supersede everything that happen prior. So why does not the BS choose to leave before his actions will be abusive, just like the WS can leave before they cheat? When the WS acts out their pain in the form of infidelity, posters crucify them. There is little talk about the WS suffering from a thousand cuts instead of one stab. Look back at most thread. The BS is nearly exempt and posters will keep attacking the WS even if the BS admits that they wronged the WS. Most will back the BS even if they admitted that they made their spouse feel like nothing because of their own issues. They will try and convince the BS that the WS is worthless, and so it may reaffirm that the actions prior before the infidelity is justified. Worthless before and worthless now.
> 
> Again, for me, and some, context is important in a matter that may not be simplistic.


I've said this a million times no one is saying the BS is a saint but using infidelity to cope or resolve marital issues is like using nukes to resolve a trad e dispute...the WS chose infidelity - the BS dd not choose it for them...


----------



## Mr.Fisty

carmen ohio said:


> Mr. Fisty,
> 
> The problem with this type of thinking is that it can be use to justify a host of wrong and even evil behavior.
> 
> Nearly everybody that commits a crime can point to something in his or her experience that contributed in some way to the commission of the crime. Nevertheless, people recognized eons ago that such excuses must be rejected if society is to function.
> 
> Consider the case of Nazi Germany. It is beyond dispute that the action of the victorious nations at the end of WW1 contributed mightily to the economic collapse that happened in Germany in the 1920s, and that this experience so traumatized the German people that they became receptive to Nazi propaganda and desenstitized to the suffering of persecuted minorities. Nevertheless, most would reject -- and rightly so -- any suggestion that the atrocities the Germans committed in WW2 were not their fault and theirs alone.
> 
> Ultimately, the flaw in your line of thinking is that it absolves people of the responsibility to make moral choices. Yes, we can all point to someone else's actions as having played a role in our wrong decisions but, no, we can't rely on these to escape responsibility for those decisions.
> 
> It all comes down to a simple truth that we teach children: two wrongs don't make a right.



So, it is complicated. and I never justified the cheating. Here is a thing, it nearly absolves the pain and neglect that the BS causes. Like abuse of a WS will cause emotional and mental instability.

Posters minimize the BS actions and shift nearly all the fault onto the WS. So the BS can blame for the pain the WS cause, and even some on here justify actions like slapping the WS and even revenge affair is sometimes seen as justice by some, because well, the BS is justified in those actions. Only the WS pain is not justified in return.

So when the Ws cheats, it is all on them, but when a BS gets abusive, it is the WS fault that drove them to it. Look, infidelity cause the emotional and mental instability.

Why wouldn't a BS have the same reaction in reverse. Posters are ignoring the actions and what effect that causes.

Just like the WS has the option to leave so does the BS if they are causing theharm the other way. So why does not the BS give up the WS beas well. The BS can be selfish as well, using their partner as a punching bag, then cry when the punching bag hits back.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Anon Pink said:


> I don't know if you ever leave CWI but TAM is filled with threads about a crappy marriage and how unhappy the original poster is. Rarely is the OP told "you're an adult so do something about your unhappiness."
> 
> Nope they're given all sort of ideas about ways to understand and approach their spouse about working together to fix the relationship.
> 
> As usual, my point is completely missed. I'm not justifying infidelity. My point is that TAMWay never allows for the state of the relationship to have a role in the affair. My point is that in SOME situations, the lousy state of the marriage allowed the affair to go from fleeting thought to an acceptable alternative.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't. And I never suggested that it did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In some situations yes this is true. But not in all situations, as I've been saying over and over and over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have me confused with your cheating spouse. I also think you should actually read what I write rather than jump to conclusions.
> 
> 
> 
> Again with the word justified? Again the word excuse? Can any of you see beyond your own hurt to step out of your sitch and into someone else's?
> 
> This post is a perfect example of why WS get run out of TAM. Locke is not responding to the actual words I've written. Locke is reacting to the general idea as interpreted by others and Locke is projecting the pain of his wife's affair into this thread rather than actually discuss the ideas actually present as they are actually presented.


And I think you have me confused with someone who has a cheating spouse and is in a sitch where I can't see beyond my own hurt that I need to step out of, I don't and I'm not. I haven't read or come across any other point that you've been trying to make or what you've been saying over and over and over. I was responding to this and this only:



Anon Pink said:


> They are not completely separate because one would not happen but for the other happening. They are relational, interdependent even.
> 
> "I was unhappy...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."
> 
> That's not blame shifting. That's reality.


I don't know you, your story or anything about you and I didn't think that it was you who personally said 'I was unhappy...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues' (I mean, you write it in quotations marks). You put it out there/on here as a scenario and my post was in response to that specific scenario.

It wasn't directed at _you_ (*Anon Pink*). The '_you_' was _you_ (plural/general) to the waywards of that mindset who've uttered those ridiculous words. Those who have been unfaithful and have said 'I cheated because I was unhappy.. blah blah blah' which I've encountered an annoying number of times.

The state of the marriage has a role in the state of the marriage. Spouses have cheated in good marriages, spouses have cheated in bad marriages, spouses have cheated in ~meh~ marriages. Adultery is a choice, and that choice falls on the adulterer, their individual decisions, thought processes, behaviour, personality (type), ethical values, morals, reasoning, rationalization, etc.



Anon Pink said:


> I don't know if you ever leave CWI but TAM is filled with threads about a crappy marriage and how unhappy the original poster is. Rarely is the OP told "you're an adult so do something about your unhappiness."
> 
> Nope they're given all sort of ideas about ways to understand and approach their spouse about working together to fix the relationship.


And I would do the same but some people need to hear and be told to take control of their lives, to stop making excuses, take the initaite and make the changes they want in their life. Situations and personal circumstances vary but I would offer advice, insight, be understanding.. but I'm not a fan of self-pity, lethargy, inactivity and the whole self-absorbed victim mentally so depending on the situation and if it's righly deserved, I would tell someone that they're an adult and to do something about their issues. (Possibly but) maybe not in those exact words but to that effect, the sentiment would be the same.

I know and I am well aware of the various situations out there, and again, I was not refering to those but to the synopsis you wrote where someone is unfaithful in their marriage and he/she feels _justified_ (yes that word) in their decision to cheat because they were unhappy.


----------



## GusPolinski

Heatherknows said:


> Marriage is difficult and I don't think one person can meet all your needs but if you want to be faithful and have an honest marriage you'll need to come to terms with NOT having some needs met and make peace with it.


Uhhh... I guess it all depends on precisely which "needs" you're referring to.

Either way, if you feel that a) your needs aren't being met by your spouse, and b) that your spouse could reasonably be expected to meet these needs, why not speak up?


----------



## GusPolinski

Mr.Fisty said:


> So, it is complicated. and I never justified the cheating. Here is a thing, it nearly absolves the pain and neglect that the BS causes. Like abuse of a WS will cause emotional and mental instability.
> 
> Posters minimize the BS actions and shift nearly all the fault onto the WS. So the BS can blame for the pain the WS cause, and even some on here justify actions like slapping the WS and even revenge affair is sometimes seen as justice by some, because well, the BS is justified in those actions. Only the WS pain is not justified in return.
> 
> So when the Ws cheats, it is all on them, but when a BS gets abusive, it is the WS fault that drove them to it. Look, infidelity cause the emotional and mental instability.
> 
> Why wouldn't a BS have the same reaction in reverse. Posters are ignoring the actions and what effect that causes.
> 
> Just like the WS has the option to leave so does the BS if they are causing theharm the other way. So why does not the BS give up the WS beas well. The BS can be selfish as well, using their partner as a punching bag, then cry when the punching bag hits back.


I'll simplify...

While it's true that one's actions (or inaction) could foreseeably evoke certain reactions from others, _each of us is responsible for our own actions, inaction, and reactions._


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> Lets say a husband was abusive and the wife cheated, it is all her fault.


If someone is in an abusive relationship where their husband abuses and hurts them, wouldn't cheating on the violent, abusive man be extremely ill-adviced:|?.. anyways,



Mr.Fisty said:


> Posters minimize the BS actions and shift nearly all the fault onto the WS.





Mr.Fisty said:


> When the WS acts out their pain in the form of infidelity, posters crucify them.





Mr.Fisty said:


> As usual, posters attacked her first





Mr.Fisty said:


> Posters are ignoring the actions and what effect that causes.





Mr.Fisty said:


> The BS is nearly exempt and posters will keep attacking the WS even if the BS admits that they wronged the WS.


*Correction: Some posters.

There are intelligent posters here, and I'm sure that no intelligent person would condone or disregard and gloss over extreme and abusive behaviour and treatment towards another person.



Mr.Fisty said:


> So when the Ws cheats, it is all on them, but when a BS gets abusive, it is the WS fault that drove them to it. Look, infidelity cause the emotional and mental instability.


Forget about assigning blame or who's at fault. Infidelity is a choice, and the choice to cheat is on the person who chooses to cheat. Their decision and reasons/excuses may be understandable, but the choice to cheat is still theirs. The same with the betrayed spouse's behaviour and reaction to their wayward's spouse's affair, also understandable, whether you agree with it or not.

There was a poster who was on here ages ago whose wife had cheated on him. He wrote that sex with his wife only lasted around two minutes and the focus turned to his poor sexual performance and lacking. Is it understandable that in his wife's desire for sexual satisfaction she opted to sleep with someone else? Maybe, but the choice to cheat was still hers.

Also the betrayed spouse isn't automatically assumed to be the innocent party by default and all their actions before and after the affair absolved, and the wayward spouse considered the lying cheating wh*re/bastard. There were two posters on here the last few weeks, both betrayed spouses, who were basically run off this forum because some posters perceived their treatment of their wayward spouses to be abusive. 
I abhor infidelity but I've been understanding, offered advice, supported and corresponded with people who've cheated, on this forum and in life, and I'm sure many here have as well.

I think that there is a misconception that the opinions of some are the opinions of all.

Seriously *Mr.Fisty*, it's like you've never encountered people who hold an opposing view to yours or who are unreasonable, crazy, stupid, trolls, don't know any different or just plain a**holes before. The world is full of them, this forum is no different. Opinions and values are subjective. Adultery is illegal in some parts of the world, in others not. In some areas here you spend less time in prison for murdering someone than stealing a goat. Standards, opinions and morals differ across the globe and individually.

Some people post and write dumb s***. Those people tend to be very vocal and aggressive with their opinions, but don't assume that their views and attitudes form the general consensus.


----------



## tech-novelist

Dude007 said:


> You can't love someone seeing them a total of 4 hours a week which is probably a generous account of the time spent on average w AP
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that depends on your definition of love. When I was 15, I certainly *thought* I was in love with a girl who I never even held hands with and spent very little time with.

To get back to the topic of infidelity, I'm not saying that everyone who has an affair is in love with the AP. But you don't necessarily have to spend time with someone to love them.


----------



## Maricha75

Dude007 said:


> You can't love someone seeing them a total of 4 hours a week which is probably a generous account of the time spent on average w AP
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You absolutely can love someone without seeing them often. If you couldn't, I wouldn't be with my husband. We lived over 1000 miles apart when we met online. We didn't meet in person until about 3 months later. Then, we didn't see each other until 4 months after that. At one point in our marriage, we only saw each other less than 48 hours a week (yes, I realize that is significantly more than 4 hours). My point is that you can nurture any relationship, even one with significantly less physical time together. It's all about how you spend your time, who gets your attention. While I understand your position regarding only _thinking_ someone is in love with his/her affair partner, you cannot discount the fact that you CAN love someone while having limited physical interaction.


----------



## MJJEAN

Mr.Fisty said:


> There was a thread where the poster cheated on her husband. Her husband has a history of alcoholism, abuse, and neglect. His ex-wife cheated on him, his ex-gf cheated on him, and *some left before they cheated on him.* Either he has no affect on their state of mind and he picks badly, or his actions affect their state of mind, destroying the bond and the need to protect it.


Umm, if some of this poster's H's ex's left, they weren't cheating. His previous partners who were seeing other men behind his back while involved with him may have been cheating, but the ones who left first weren't cheating. They were merely moving on.

And that's the thing. I don't care how shyte a marriage is, the person who chose to cheat always had the option of leaving the situation first. It doesn't matter how badly the BS was neglecting them or abusing them. If it's that bad, leave. If it's not bad enough to leave, there's no excuse to cheat.

And, remember, I'm saying this as a former WW who was married to a man that was physically and emotionally abusive, who screwed anything that would stand still long enough, who lied about lying, and who was financially irresponsible in the extreme as well as being a willfully ignorant sheeple puke.

The moral choice would have been to either end the marriage or to uphold the vows I made as a matter of personal honor having nothing to do with the actions and inactions of my ex. I could never blame my various affairs on my ex. I was miserable. I could have left. I chose to cheat instead. That is absolutely all on me.


----------



## Heatherknows

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh... I guess it all depends on precisely which "needs" you're referring to.
> 
> Either way, if you feel that a) your needs aren't being met by your spouse, and b) that your spouse could reasonably be expected to meet these needs, why not speak up?


Some needs can't be met even with talking. Sometimes you've got to accept the package "as is."


----------



## GusPolinski

Heatherknows said:


> Some needs can't be met even with talking. Sometimes you've got to accept the package "as is."


Depends on the need I guess.

Along w/ the other spouse.

Actually, both of them.


----------



## Wolf1974

MJJEAN said:


> Umm, if some of this poster's H's ex's left, they weren't cheating. His previous partners who were seeing other men behind his back while involved with him may have been cheating, but the ones who left first weren't cheating. They were merely moving on.
> 
> And that's the thing. I don't care how shyte a marriage is, the person who chose to cheat always had the option of leaving the situation first. It doesn't matter how badly the BS was neglecting them or abusing them. If it's that bad, leave. If it's not bad enough to leave, there's no excuse to cheat.
> 
> And, remember, *I'm saying this as a former WW* who was married to a man that was physically and emotionally abusive, who screwed anything that would stand still long enough, who lied about lying, and who was financially irresponsible in the extreme as well as being a willfully ignorant sheeple puke.
> 
> The moral choice would have been to either end the marriage or to uphold the vows I made as a matter of personal honor having nothing to do with the actions and inactions of my ex. *I could never blame my various affairs on my ex. I was miserable. I could have left. I chose to cheat instead. That is absolutely all on me*.


And because you have accepted your role and taken accountability and learned from it you have much to teach WS here who do neither. Thank you for being here :smile2:

Sorry I know I am the evil BS and suppose to be shouting you down and yelling at you but I appreciate your post so I will restrain myself


----------



## Truthseeker1

MJJEAN said:


> Umm, if some of this poster's H's ex's left, they weren't cheating. His previous partners who were seeing other men behind his back while involved with him may have been cheating, but the ones who left first weren't cheating. They were merely moving on.
> 
> And that's the thing. I don't care how shyte a marriage is, the person who chose to cheat always had the option of leaving the situation first. It doesn't matter how badly the BS was neglecting them or abusing them. If it's that bad, leave. If it's not bad enough to leave, there's no excuse to cheat.
> 
> And, remember, I'm saying this as a former WW who was married to a man that was physically and emotionally abusive, who screwed anything that would stand still long enough, who lied about lying, and who was financially irresponsible in the extreme as well as being a willfully ignorant sheeple puke.
> 
> *The moral choice would have been to either end the marriage or to uphold the vows I made as a matter of personal honor having nothing to do with the actions and inactions of my ex. I could never blame my various affairs on my ex. I was miserable. I could have left. I chose to cheat instead. That is absolutely all on me.*


Some folks need to reread this until it sinks in....


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> Perhaps I did misunderstand you, but you were responding to the following:
> 
> 
> 
> and you said:
> 
> 
> 
> The hypothetical jury is not _"still out"_ over the question of whether people can reconcile after infidelity. It happens all the time.
> 
> And I don't have a clue what you mean by
> 
> _"There are only 2 schools of thought regarding reconciliation. Either you renew the marriage or settle for less."_


My point, Carmen is that the jury is still out about whether or not a reconciled marriage is a "good " one or not. From my experience and from the people I know who have reconciled, I tend to believe that most of these reconciled marriages are a great deal less than good. Who wants to live their lives with the 9 hundred pound gorilla of cheating, always in the corner. I wouldn't and didn't. I think if people were really honest about it, most of them are settling for something less. A very lucky few can renew their marriages, like a new one, but they are very few and far between.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> I don't disagree that there are some WS who make fine relationship material. Rookie seeks a BS-free zone for WS. That is what I think will not help. A free flow of ideas will serve BS and WS better.
> 
> I've never been a fan of segregation.


Pluto, it wasn't anything I seek, it was a suggestion of an alternative to the lynch mob mentality that has driven away so many WS posters. I also suggested alternatives like stricter enforcement of the Civility rules, or closer supervision by the moderators. The issue is that we are losing ws and other posters , who can give valuable insight, and are in danger of becoming a BS pity party and nothing else. Hence my example of the other forum which did just that and is no longer on the web. All everybody ever did was ***** about their WS's, feel sorry for themselves, and tell and re tell their stories to a diminishing and bored audience. Nobody ever LEARNED anything, because there was no other perspective to learn from. You cannot clap with one hand, you cannot learn about infidelity with only the BS perspective. Lets be a little more civil and a condemn a little less and see how it goes. I think It's worth a try.


----------



## GusPolinski

Well now I'm trying to clap w/ one hand.

Damn it.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Well now I'm trying to clap w/ one hand.
> 
> Damn it.


See, I told you.:grin2:


----------



## Rookie4

Whoa, there , Hoss! We are getting way off topic, and it's as much my fault as anybodys. This thread is about (or was) what to do to get greater WS participation on th CWI forum, and how this can best be done. I'm not sure that a separate forum for WS's is the answer, but there HAS to be an answer, because there are fewer and fewer WS posters every day. When I started here on TAM, I would say that at least 30% or more posters were WS's and FWS's. Now I would say it is less than 5% If and when it reaches zero, then there will be no point in coming here, because there will be nothing to be learned by doing so.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> My point, Carmen is that the jury is still out about whether or not a reconciled marriage is a "good " one or not. From my experience and from the people I know who have reconciled, I tend to believe that most of these reconciled marriages are a great deal less than good. Who wants to live their lives with the 9 hundred pound gorilla of cheating, always in the corner. I wouldn't and didn't. I think if people were really honest about it, most of them are settling for something less. A very lucky few can renew their marriages, like a new one, but they are very few and far between.


Some can, some can't. I have no idea of numbers.

Settling? Well, in the short term, yes. It takes a long time to rebuild. You have to get over the infidelity, and then you have to work on the issues that put the marriage in a place where it was vulnerable to infidelity. It's not easy. 

But for me, the affair was a loss of innocence. I no longer believe there is "the one who will never cheat and it will be so perfect". That applies having stayed with my wife and it would apply in a new relationship. So it comes down to a decision as to whether someone is an acceptable risk.


----------



## Wazza

Rookie4 said:


> Pluto, it wasn't anything I seek, it was a suggestion of an alternative to the lynch mob mentality that has driven away so many WS posters. I also suggested alternatives like stricter enforcement of the Civility rules, or closer supervision by the moderators. The issue is that we are losing ws and other posters , who can give valuable insight, and are in danger of becoming a BS pity party and nothing else. Hence my example of the other forum which did just that and is no longer on the web. All everybody ever did was ***** about their WS's, feel sorry for themselves, and tell and re tell their stories to a diminishing and bored audience. Nobody ever LEARNED anything, because there was no other perspective to learn from. You cannot clap with one hand, you cannot learn about infidelity with only the BS perspective. Lets be a little more civil and a condemn a little less and see how it goes. I think It's worth a try.


I've been banned once, and it was for using the wh*re word in relation to a poster. The thing is, it wasn't used as a gratuitous personal attack, it made sense in context. The poster herself said that to me later. But it seems that use of that word gets an automatic banning.

So I think something a bit more nuanced than tighter enforcement of the rules is needed. The fact that I could have that conversation with the "wh*re" poster was, I think, in part because I tried very hard to be civil, while still being clear about things she was doing wrong.

The more vitriolic posts aren't always from someone who is triggering. Sometimes you can see a train wreck coming, you know people will get hurt, and so you say everything you can to try and avert it. I try not to do that, just because it seems not to work, but I can understand why other people try.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> My own issues prevented the possibility of an affair. But I will say unequivocally, if I HAD been able to go through with it, my affair would have been totally on him! Totally. And we can fight that out till the cows come home but nothing you or anyone else says will change my mind that had I been able to have an affair it would have been his doing.


Holy ****.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> Maybe this is why so many TAM CWI people urge divorce? Because they don't wanna look at their side of the street. It's a lot easier to put all the blame on the WS then to look at your side of the street.


So when a WS cheats, it's because the BS made them do it. And when a BS divorces their WS instead of reconciling, it's because they were too scared to look at themselves and admit they caused the WS to cheat. Got it.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> Allowed my mind to go there...? Seriously? Are you now suggesting that all those fantasies and day dreams of having an affair and learning I could get naked with another man were also some form of cheating? B!tch Please.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure I've never used the word justified. That word doesn't fit into this discussion at all and word choice is pretty important here. I've seen many a rebuttal using the word "justified" but the comment the spurred the word had nothing to do with justification.
> 
> I never suggested I was justified in thinking about having an affair. I said it was my H's fault, but that's not the same as justified.
> 
> A relationship takes two people working together. When one ignores the others MANY attempts to fix the relationship what message is being sent? "You don't matter to me. Your hurt and pain don't matter to me. Staying the way I am is more important to me than you are."
> 
> Cause and effect are always in play in relationships. Justification is rarely in play. We need what we need and there is no justification for what we need. You're never justified for needing something, but you sure have the right to need whatever it is that you need.
> 
> So let's take "justified" out of the equation?


Semantics. You are justifying people having affairs.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> Nice Gus, real nice. This would be the example of the drive by snide remark. Just vague enough to not be tagged as an insult but CLEARLY meant to be insulting.
> 
> 
> How about you grow a pair and say what's really on your mind instead?


But "B!tch Please" and "grow a pair" aren't insults? Mkay.



Anon Pink said:


> B!tch Please.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> They are not completely separate because one would not happen but for the other happening. They are relational, interdependent even.
> 
> "I was unhappy...and I told you dozens of times and I begged you to help us work through this. The choice to have an affair was all my doing but this affair would never have happened if you had helped our marriage by working on your issues."
> 
> That's not blame shifting. That's reality.


Blame shifting is reality. You're that miserable in your marriage and you can't fix it? Divorce. 

By your logic, if you perceive being treated poorly at work, and you decide to defraud the company, it's the company's fault you ripped them off. They had a "role" in your thievery. 

It's not a good way to go through life - blaming others for your horrible actions. It's easier for sure - but as adults, we should know that what's easier isn't always what's right. This is the thought process of a child - not a grown up.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> For me, the need to show that everything was my wife's fault was really about proving that it wasn't mine. To myself mostly. As I worked through things I was able to get a more nuanced perspective. The need to blame her became less.
> 
> I read the words you write, and I interpret them through the lens of where my headspace would have been had I written such words.
> 
> That's not bull***. It is either that we have different perspectives generally (which is reasonable) or that I have worked through some things that you haven't. But you did describe some of your reactions to Rookie as "triggering". All I did was took you at your word.
> 
> If you cannot routinely think about the affair without anger and hurt, then I think your journey is ongoing.


I referenced rookie as being the biggest trigger for me in the past. Historically. But what does that matter?

Clearly you have decided that your wife's cheating was partly your fault - that's your prerogative. Me knowing my exww's cheating was entirely on her has nothing to do with me proving to myself that it wasn't my fault. Not necessary. Even she admits that. She takes full responsibility. She didn't at first - but after she grew up and gained some perspective, she realized the truth. And she tells me she's sorry all the time, 3 years out.

Of course my journey is ongoing. I lost my family. Every day that I don't get to see my kids, I hurt. You're being condescending and self righteous. Don't confuse your taking some of the blame for your wife's cheating as some sort of enlightened superiority. Because it's not.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> My point is that in SOME situations, the lousy state of the marriage allowed the affair to go from fleeting thought to an acceptable alternative.


"Allowed" the affair. This mystical, magical entity that granted the WS permission to **** another person who wasn't their spouse. Again, extremely childish. We're adults. The thing that "allowed" the WS to cheat was their own will. Big boy and and big girl pants - time to try them on, even though you might find them uncomfortable.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> It is the TAMWay that doesn't take into account the multiple possible dynamics that are present in a marriage that might or might not have led to the affair.


Straight up blame shifting. But keep trying to disguise it - it'll make some of the WS here feel better about themselves. If that's your goal - you're doin' good.


----------



## Healer

Anon Pink said:


> Well Gus it obviously worked because you came back without the one line snide remark and actually elaborated ...to some degree.
> 
> Perhaps you should go back to staying out of Rookie's threads since they present such a challenge to you?


They present a challenge to anyone who knows that cheating is 100% on the cheater. There are quite a few of us. Some of us are up for that challenge - because we care about this place and don't want BS, especially ones that's it's fresh for, to be gaslighted and damaged any further than they are. We also don't want to enable cheaters, which is what people like you and rookie do when you blame shift to the BS. It's a dangerous game you're playing.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie, I believe you've been looking for one of these...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...treme-jealousy-after-lover-wife-had-baby.html


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Rookie, I believe you've been looking for one of these...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...treme-jealousy-after-lover-wife-had-baby.html


Thanks, Gus. A very rare bird, indeed. So the point is that there are very , very, VERY few WS posters like this person. She is obviously weak minded in the extreme. Most of our WS posters have a lot more going for them than this person does. But, because they are ALL WS's, they get painted with the same brush. But even this person should be treated with civility, even though almost all of us disagree with and abhor her attitude and actions. You can learn a lot from a train wreck.


----------



## GusPolinski

Quite a few more come to mind right off the top of my head, but digging them up and posting them via my iPhone isn't really my idea of a good time.

There was one over in General/LL just last week.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Thanks, Gus. A very rare bird, indeed. So the point is that there are very , very, VERY few WS posters like this person. She is obviously weak minded in the extreme. Most of our WS posters have a lot more going for them than this person does. But, because they are ALL WS's, they get painted with the same brush. But even this person should be treated with civility, even though almost all of us disagree with and abhor her attitude and actions. *You can learn a lot from a train wreck.*



What I usually learn is to stay off the tracks.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> Some can, some can't. I have no idea of numbers.
> 
> Settling? Well, in the short term, yes. It takes a long time to rebuild. You have to get over the infidelity, and then you have to work on the issues that put the marriage in a place where it was vulnerable to infidelity. It's not easy.
> 
> But for me, the affair was a loss of innocence. I no longer believe there is "the one who will never cheat and it will be so perfect". That applies having stayed with my wife and it would apply in a new relationship. So it comes down to a decision as to whether someone is an acceptable risk.


As a former corporate person, I understand the risks/rewards concept, but I respectfully say that it has very limited value in human relationships. JMO.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> What I usually learn is to stay off the tracks.


Pretty hard to do, if you are already on the train.:grin2:


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Pretty hard to do, if you are already on the train.:grin2:



Some trains are more prone to crash than others, right?

So just stay away from those trains.


----------



## Maricha75

Rookie4 said:


> Pretty hard to do, if you are already on the train.:grin2:


Well, darn it! Stop getting on those trains!


----------



## Rookie4

Maricha75 said:


> Well, darn it! Stop getting on those trains!


Well, I was already on this train for 20+ years, how was I supposed to know it was going to go off the tracks?:grin2:


----------



## larry.gray

After reading this whole thread to this point, I really have to wonder why you haven't reconciled Rookie? Your now getting to the point where you're taking part of the blame for what happened. Your ex-wife is a model of remorse and contrition for what happened.


----------



## pidge70

What I have gleaned from this thread thus far is, Joe is completely at fault for my affair. I mean, I have mental health issues, Joe was an ass, and I was extremely unhappy. Therefore, I cannot believe I wasted so much time feeling like such a horrible person for nothing. Thanks guys!


----------



## larry.gray

How are you and Joe doing pidge? Last update said you were splitting but it's gone quiet.


----------



## pidge70

larry.gray said:


> How are you and Joe doing pidge? Last update said you were splitting but it's gone quiet.


We're okay. Gotta keep on keeping on.....ya know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> After reading this whole thread to this point, I really have to wonder why you haven't reconciled Rookie? Your now getting to the point where you're taking part of the blame for what happened. Your ex-wife is a model of remorse and contrition for what happened.


We have reconciled, Larry. We are very good friends, now. But, as you know, reconciliation doesn't mean a renewal of the marriage. I am reconciled to the affair, and it's aftermath, but I no longer love my wife, so I have somebody new.:smile2:


----------



## WandaJ

I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves. 
Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”


----------



## larry.gray

WandaJ said:


> I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves.
> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”


I would encourage the heck out of you pounding the heck out of the notify button. We do get a fair amount of "drive by" threads from wayward spouses. They post, and then they delete their threads because they are treated just like you are.


----------



## GusPolinski

WandaJ said:


> I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves.
> 
> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”



Wanda, respectfully, if you've still not confessed your affair to your husband, then you've still got quite a bit of learning and growing to do yourself.


----------



## oneMOreguy

WandaJ said:


> I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves.
> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: ?Cheater!?, ?Cheating is bad!? , ?Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here?


......a thousand likes for this. ......but my phone can't even give you one unfortunately.

From my perspective......both bs and ws don't easily "get" what life on the other side of the tracks is like. I am more of a ws than bs....and strongly feel that there are way too many simplications and demonizing when it comes to what is swirling thru the head of a ws. I understand why is happening....but know that it only provides an easier to handle slice of what is going on. 

Kindness to all is a great approach.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Clearly you have decided that your wife's cheating was partly your fault


No. It was on her. She was wrong. I have already said that.


----------



## Wazza

WandaJ said:


> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”


QFT


----------



## EI

oneMOreguy said:


> Kindness to all is a great approach.


And, if not kindness, civility, at least, is the minimum requirement for a genuine and honest dialogue between WS's and BS's to take place. In my time at TAM, I've seen it go both ways. But, far too often, I've seen opportunities lost. In the end, I guess it all depends on why each of us are here that will determine the way we treat one another.


----------



## sparrow555

WandaJ said:


> I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves.
> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”


That is the problem with open forums. You do not have to be qualified to post. i could be a 15 year old kid, a misogynist, a misandrist or even a bored lonely person just looking for my daily quota of drama. My opinion has just as much value as a guy who has a PHD..

I often wonder about the long term affects on regular forum posters in what are essentially echo chambers. What kind of social life does a person who make 20-30 long posts(in addition to reading several threads) a day have ?


----------



## WandaJ

larry.gray said:


> I would encourage the heck out of you pounding the heck out of the notify button. We do get a fair amount of "drive by" threads from wayward spouses. They post, and then they delete their threads because they are treated just like you are.


And some of them probably come back to TAM under different nickname later, and do not make the mistake of mentioning affair ever again. I am sure there is many more WS on this forum that dare to admit.


----------



## WandaJ

GusPolinski said:


> Wanda, respectfully, if you've still not confessed your affair to your husband, then you've still got quite a bit of learning and growing to do yourself.


My growing is my business, Gus. I am not obliged to share details of my growing or not growing with public forum. To me it seems that the whole purpose of you being on TAM is going after cheaters. I hardly ever see you post on anything else, sometimes on some guys thread or boobs thread. Kind of ineteresting.


----------



## convert

Rookie4 said:


> *We have reconciled, Larry. We are very good friends, now.* But, as you know, reconciliation doesn't mean a renewal of the marriage. I am reconciled to the affair, and it's aftermath, but I no longer love my wife, so I have somebody new.:smile2:


I have never thought of a reconciliation that does not mean getting back together. but yes being friends can certainly be a form of R


----------



## GusPolinski

WandaJ said:


> And some of them probably come back to TAM under different nickname later, and do not make the mistake of mentioning affair ever again. *I am sure there is many more WS on this forum that dare to admit.*



I think many of us are starting to see that.


----------



## Truthseeker1




----------



## WandaJ

GusPolinski said:


> I think many of us are starting to see that.


I am sorry to burst your bubble. Cheaters are among us . They have one head, two legs, two arms, they are often very likeable people, who were caught in their misery. No horns on head, no tail. You can not just put all them into your "evil"corner, and scrap them of all humanity, so you can feel better about yourself.


----------



## Pluto2

WandaJ said:


> I am sorry to burst your bubble. Cheaters are among us . They have one head, two legs, two arms, they are often very likeable people, who were caught in their misery. No horns on head, no tail. You can not just put all them into your "evil"corner, and scrap them of all humanity, so you can feel better about yourself.


I know I said I was out, but I like Gus and if you HONESTLY believe he is someone that scraps folks of all humanity I don't think you've read his posts. Lots of people have agendas, and now we are seeing yours.

Again, I am in favor of the free flow of ideas, not segregation.


----------



## GusPolinski

WandaJ said:


> My growing is my business, Gus.


Very true.

And for everyone.



WandaJ said:


> I am not obliged to share details of my growing or not growing with public forum.


Again, that's very true, and for both you and others.

Either way, I'll take that as a no.



WandaJ said:


> To me it seems that the whole purpose of you being on TAM is going after cheaters. I hardly ever see you post on anything else, sometimes on some guys thread or boobs thread. Kind of ineteresting.



I'm a heterosexual male. I like boobs.

Sue me.

I read and post in women's threads as well. It's cool if you don't see that, though. Honestly, though, I usually feel that my input isn't needed (have fun w/ that, by the way), as many of the ladies here do a pretty good job of counseling their own.

Much of the advice that some of them give to men, though, is utter crap.

Infidelity is traumatic, though more so for those who experience it... and less so for those who inflict it.

It's life-changing. Hell, in some cases, it's life-ENDING. I've lived through it, and not just in my own marriage. 

It was hard. Hell, it IS hard. Even 3-1/2 years later, I STILL struggle at times. I trigger. I don't want to... but it happens, and I'm annoyed at some of the seemingly minute and trivial things that seem to evoke it.

Anyway, what your post above tells me is that you're less concerned w/ the impact that news of your infidelity would have on your husband and more concerned w/ the fallout for you.

Not exactly remorseful.

So thanks for answering my next question, I guess.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Wow this has now turned into a blame shifting thread...


----------



## WandaJ

GusPolinski said:


> Very true.
> 
> 
> Anyway, what your post above tells me is that you're less concerned w/ the impact that news of your infidelity would have on your husband and more concerned w/ the fallout for you.
> 
> Not exactly remorseful.
> 
> So thanks for answering my next question, I guess.


No, not concerned about it impact on me. I want to keep this marriage work for kids. only for kids. If it was just me, I would be out . but let s not hijack the thread.

And thank you for sharing. I was on the receiving end of infidelity too, I know how it feels. My point is that people who cheat are not simply evil. They are normal people, who were caught in misery, loneliness and weakness. They are no cruel psychopaths with no conscious. (excluding serial cheaters, to make it clear)

And people who were cheated on - Some of them are nice people, some of them are rather nasty, judging by the way they post. Being cheated on is not a virtue. Does not make you superior to others. That's all.

It is not about glorifying cheaters. It is about admitting that there are regular people who made mistake. But if all you do is throwing stones, you can not see it. And you can not have that conversation. Unfortunatley, too many do not want to have conversation. they want to vent and point fingers.


----------



## WandaJ

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow this has now turned into a blame shifting thread...


and you wasted so much time reading it and still not getting it. Your truth seeking is on the dead end street. Good luck!


----------



## Truthseeker1

WandaJ said:


> No, not concerned about it impact on me. I want to keep this marriage work for kids. only for kids. If it was just me, I would be out . but let s not hijack the thread.
> 
> And thank you for sharing. I was on the receiving end of infidelity too, I know how it feels. My point is that people who cheat are not simply evil. They are normal people, who were caught in misery, loneliness and weakness. They are no cruel psychopaths with no conscious. (excluding serial cheaters, to make it clear)
> 
> And people who were cheated on - Some of them are nice people, some of them are rather nasty, judging by the way they post. Being cheated on is not a virtue. Does not make you superior to others. That's all.
> 
> It is not about glorifying cheaters. It is about admitting that there are regular people who made mistake. But if all you do is throwing stones, you can not see it. And you can not have that conversation. Unfortunatley, too many do not want to have conversation. they want to vent and point fingers.


Its not a mistake but a choice Wanda...the cheater chooses how to cope with marital difficulties by cheating....your posts have been tremendously instructive..thank you;..


----------



## Truthseeker1

WandaJ said:


> and you wasted so much time reading it and still not getting it. Your truth seeking is on the dead end street. Good luck!


----------



## GusPolinski

WandaJ said:


> I am sorry to burst your bubble. Cheaters are among us . They have one head, two legs, two arms, they are often very likeable people, who were caught in their misery. No horns on head, no tail. You can not just put all them into your "evil"corner, and scrap them of all humanity, so you can feel better about yourself.



I'm well aware of that, Wanda.

I try to demonize the behavior instead of the person.

Do I, at times, fail at that, though?

Yep.

In my defense, though, it's usually when I sense an overwhelming lack of remorse.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> I have admitted to having an affair shortly after joining TAM. The biggest mistake. There are people here who hurt because they were cheated, but they are still able to behave . And there are people who are full of hatred and self-righteousness. Who think that they are morally superior, even though they behave like *********s. Who think that silencing WS will fix their problem. People who do not want to learn. People who see everything in black and white. They just want to be feel better about themselves.
> Because of people like this there is no real discussion of that subject. It is all echo-chambers, with no room for learning and growing. Just throwing there things that are rather obvious to everybody, without any deeper insight: “Cheater!”, “Cheating is bad!’ , “Give me more stones, faster, faster, she /he is still here”


The only time I've seen a WS treated the way in which you are describing is when they come on here, entitled, shifting blame to their BS, lacking remorse and looking for validation for their actions. I'm sure there are some I missed that just flat out attack - but I've not seen that. If a WS comes here remorseful, looking to understand their actions and better themselves, I see people trying to help them and treat them with civility.

However what I have seen, is BS attacked for being critical on any level. Anything other than handling the WS with kid gloves and basically coddling them is called out as being somehow abusive to the WS.

You seem to have that same sense of entitlement that probably led you to cheat in the first place. Now, see, I'm not attacking you and yelling "bad cheater BAD!!". I'm being civil and relaying my observations based on what I've read from you.

Do you feel your BS was somehow responsible for your cheating? Obviously I respect it if that's something you'd rather not share.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> My growing is my business, Gus. I am not obliged to share details of my growing or not growing with public forum. To me it seems that the whole purpose of you being on TAM is going after cheaters. I hardly ever see you post on anything else, sometimes on some guys thread or boobs thread. Kind of ineteresting.


He never stated it was your obligation. He shared his opinion. Just as you have done in regards to your idea that WS on here are blindly attacked by BS. That's what these forums are about -people sharing opinions, advice, ideas, etc. Obviously nobody is obliged to do anything.


----------



## WandaJ

Healer said:


> T
> 
> You seem to have that same sense of entitlement that probably led you to cheat in the first place. Now, see, I'm not attacking you and yelling "bad cheater BAD!!". I'm being civil and relaying my observations based on what I've read from you.
> 
> Do you feel your BS was somehow responsible for your cheating? Obviously I respect it if that's something you'd rather not share.


I do not think I have "sense of entitlement" as you call it. It is another simplification. I was in very miserable state: lonely, angry, and not seeing a way out. That's all it takes.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> I am sorry to burst your bubble. Cheaters are among us . They have one head, two legs, two arms, they are often very likeable people, who were caught in their misery. No horns on head, no tail. You can not just put all them into your "evil"corner, and scrap them of all humanity, so you can feel better about yourself.


See, now you are attacking. Gus has done none of what you accused him of. You just accused him of doing things he hasn't even done "to make him feel better about himself". Why so much anger? Why would you assume that when people offer criticism or observations that they do it to "feel better about themselves"? Are you feeling "attacked" by Gus? Because you're not.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> I do not think I have "sense of entitlement" as you call it. It is another simplification. I was in very miserable state: lonely, angry, and not seeing a way out. That's all it takes.


That's all what takes? For a person to cheat? Nah, I don't agree. So let me get this straight - the only "way out" was for you to go behind your husband's back and have sex with another man? How is that a "way out"? How is that a way out and divorce isn't? Why didn't you divorce? How was cheating the better way than ending your horrible marriage?

I was trapped in a horrible marriage, miserable, lonely and angry too. I didn't cheat. I made the choice not to.


----------



## Pluto2

WandaJ said:


> I do not think I have "sense of entitlement" as you call it. It is another simplification. I was in very miserable state: lonely, angry, and not seeing a way out. That's all it takes.


Is it?

I ask because there are lots of BS here who were/are in a miserable state, lonely, angry and not seeing a way out of their situation-yet they don't have affairs.

So to me there really is something more otherwise everyone in that situation would engage in infidelity-and they clearly don't.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> No, not concerned about it impact on me. I want to keep this marriage work for kids. only for kids. If it was just me, I would be out . but let s not hijack the thread.
> 
> And thank you for sharing. I was on the receiving end of infidelity too, I know how it feels. My point is that people who cheat are not simply evil. They are normal people, who were caught in misery, loneliness and weakness. They are no cruel psychopaths with no conscious. (excluding serial cheaters, to make it clear)
> 
> And people who were cheated on - Some of them are nice people, some of them are rather nasty, judging by the way they post. Being cheated on is not a virtue. Does not make you superior to others. That's all.
> 
> It is not about glorifying cheaters. It is about admitting that there are regular people who made mistake. But if all you do is throwing stones, you can not see it. And you can not have that conversation. Unfortunatley, too many do not want to have conversation. they want to vent and point fingers.


Every post I've read from you is about cheaters being good people who just "made a mistake" and that BS are just blindly on the attack. I've seen zero culpability from you - only that you were basically pushed into cheating because you were so miserable and had "no way out". 

You come across as if you were entitled to cheat because your circumstances left you no choice. But you know that's untrue.


----------



## WandaJ

Healer said:


> That's all what takes? For a person to cheat? Nah, I don't agree. So let me get this straight - the only "way out" was for you to go behind your husband's back and have sex with another man? How is that a "way out"? How is that a way out and divorce isn't? Why didn't you divorce? How was cheating the better way than ending your horrible marriage?
> 
> I was trapped in a horrible marriage, miserable, lonely and angry too. I didn't cheat. I made the choice not to.


Why did I not divorce? Because I did not see this as an option. it was the same like trip to Mars. I did not see a way out at all. I see it now, but it took time to get to that point.

And of course you are better person than me. Is that what you wanted to hear?


----------



## WandaJ

Healer said:


> Every post I've read from you is about cheaters being good people who just "made a mistake" and that BS are just blindly on the attack. I've seen zero culpability from you - only that you were basically pushed into cheating because you were so miserable and had "no way out".
> 
> You come across as if you were entitled to cheat because your circumstances left you no choice. But you know that's untrue.


I did enough "culpability" on my personal thread. I am not going to go through TAM apologizing all the time. 

You guys win again. I am out.


----------



## Healer

Pluto2 said:


> Is it?
> 
> I ask because there are lots of BS here who were/are in a miserable state, lonely, angry and not seeing a way out of their situation-yet they don't have affairs.
> 
> So to me there really is something more otherwise everyone in that situation would engage in infidelity-and they clearly don't.


That's the rub. There seems to be this mystification of cheating, like the cheater was somehow hypnotized into doing it - that they were so trapped, so hopeless, the only thing they could do was to go have sex with another person behind their spouse's back. When in reality, there are people in the exact same situations who don't cheat - because they choose not to.

Not cheating is just as much a decision as cheating. You either do, or you don't.

We are adults, with free will. Cheating is not a "mistake". A "mistake" is using sugar instead of salt, or miscalculating your taxes. Cheating is a conscious decision, one that does not have to be carried out.

The logic of "well I wanted some sex on the side but I wanted to keep my family too" is nothing but pure selfishness. And it's extremely cruel, too.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> And of course you are better person than me. Is that what you wanted to hear?


I'm not claiming to be better than you, and I certainly don't need that validation from you.


----------



## Healer

WandaJ said:


> I did enough "culpability" on my personal thread. I am not going to go through TAM apologizing all the time.
> 
> You guys win again. I am out.


You came here basically attacking BS for their alleged treatment of WS. When faced with a rebuttal, you just want to take your ball and go home? You are not being attacked, you are being challenged on your assertions and accusations. 

This is not about "winning". Also, context. You can't expect people to see anything but what we read from you in this thread.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Healer said:


> You came here basically attacking BS for their alleged treatment of WS. When faced with a rebuttal, you just want to take your ball and go home? You are not being attacked, you are being challenged on your assertions and accusations.
> 
> This is not about "winning". Also, context. You can't expect people to see anything but what we read from you in this thread.


There are no winners here..the only thing I came away with is there are a number of WSs and non-WSs who think the BS is partly at fault for the infidelity...its also made me more fond of RAs...


----------



## Pluto2

WandaJ said:


> I did enough "culpability" on my personal thread. I am not going to go through TAM apologizing all the time.
> 
> You guys win again. I am out.


Rookie, a civil conversation was attempted and still she left. No one was asking anyone for an "apology"-just a conversation. There was no name calling, not accusations and no attacking-just a freaking conversation. 

So was this because we bitter angry BS were unwilling to really listen to other side.


----------



## Healer

Truthseeker1 said:


> There are no winners here..the only thing I came away with is there are a number of WSs and non-WSs who think the BS is partly at fault for the infidelity...its also made me more fond of RAs...


There's that element, and also it seems that _any_ kind of criticism, challenge, disapproval or disagreement with a WS is now considered "attacking". It's like uber political correctness. I totally get that it's not cool to verbally attack or be abusive. But I don't think it's necessary that the only thing that we are to offer is positive reinforcement. Are we sometimes critical? Yes. Is there critical treatment of BS on this forum? You bet your ass. 

It's turning into an ironic double standard.


----------



## Healer

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, a civil conversation was attempted and still she left. No one was asking anyone for an "apology"-just a conversation. There was no name calling, not accusations and no attacking-just a freaking conversation.
> 
> So was this because we bitter angry BS were unwilling to really listen to other side.


Yes - this will be another example of the "angry mob" of BS attacking and bullying a poor WS until they were forced to leave. When that's clearly not the case. I challenged her on her challenging us. I was critical of her criticism of us. Double standard, once again.


----------



## Maricha75

@WandaJ, you are right that some go after WS with both barrels. But, there are some who don't. There are some WS who come on here, completely distraught over what they have done, and some who come on here, flaunting it. By flaunting, I mean they throw out the "it's all his/her fault, not mine", taking NO responsibility for their actions. And then, we have those who are somewhere in between. Then there are some who put emotional infidelity on par with physical infidelity, others say it is "only flirting", and others put it in its own category. You are going to run into MANY different points of view, none fully agreeing on everything. Do I think some can be overbearing? Of course. At the same time, I have seen the "other side" of the discussion push buttons, once discovered. Both sides of the equation have good and bad. 

As far as the attitudes of some BSs, that can vary, too. You can have a wonderful, loving person snap and become an @$$hole. And, you can have an @$$hole become the sweetest person. I don't think it is fair to assume that someone who is bitter over being betrayed was a horrible person before and THAT is why the spouse cheated. At the same time, it is equally unfair to assume that a WS must show the FORUM that he/she is truly remorseful. There ARE some who are proud of their actions (but those usually are single post just to make waves). Most, I choose to believe, regret what they did and having strangers heap coals on their heads I n a daily basis doesn't help them. The EASY solution is for those who get triggered by such posts/threads should just avoid them... but we know that is unlikely to happen. So... idk.


----------



## Acoa

Everyone focuses on the issue of 'blame' who is to blame for this or for that. Everyone wants to be right. From what I've found it's not always black and white. 

One thing that I personally think needs to be front and center is separating the choice to cheat from the other marital problems. I don't care if you think they are related or not, it has to be separated. If the WS keeps pushing that the other marital issues caused them to cheat, it becomes extortion. What the BS hears is, "shape up and behave exactly how I want you to, or I'll cheat again and it will be all your fault." Which is a completely unreasonable approach to reconciling a relationship.

You want to come back at it as equals again. So the trust has to be there that no matter what happens in the relationship, having an affair is off the table as a mechanism for coping with it. The WS can't build that trust while still blaming the BS. Only the WS can control the WS. 

Separating the choice to cheat from the marital problems doesn't make anyone a saint or a demon. All it does is give reconciliation a chance. Perhaps some BS are able to 'repair' a marriage under the threat of continued affairs that are "their" fault, but I question how sustainable that type of reconciliation is.


----------



## Healer

Acoa said:


> Perhaps some BS are able to 'repair' a marriage under the threat of continued affairs that are "their" fault, but I question how sustainable that type of reconciliation is.


That's called false R.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Acoa said:


> Everyone focuses on the issue of 'blame' who is to blame for this or for that. Everyone wants to be right. From what I've found it's not always black and white.
> 
> One thing that I personally think needs to be front and center is separating the choice to cheat from the other marital problems. I don't care if you think they are related or not, it has to be separated. If the WS keeps pushing that the other marital issues caused them to cheat, it becomes extortion. What the BS hears is, "shape up and behave exactly how I want you to, or I'll cheat again and it will be all your fault." Which is a completely unreasonable approach to reconciling a relationship.
> 
> You want to come back at it as equals again. So the trust has to be there that no matter what happens in the relationship, having an affair is off the table as a mechanism for coping with it. The WS can't build that trust while still blaming the BS. Only the WS can control the WS.
> 
> *Separating the choice to cheat from the marital problems doesn't make anyone a saint or a demon.* All it does is give reconciliation a chance. Perhaps some BS are able to 'repair' a marriage under the threat of continued affairs that are "their" fault, but I question how sustainable that type of reconciliation is.



AMEN!!!!! Cheating is the WS's way of coping with issues in the marriage - it is separate from the issues themselves - if a spouse drinks heavily to deal with their marital issues is their alcohol abuse their spouses fault as well? Most people would say no - you chose to bury your problems in the bottle......


----------



## GusPolinski

Pluto2 said:


> I know I said I was out, but I like Gus and if you HONESTLY believe he is someone that scraps folks of all humanity I don't think you've read his posts. Lots of people have agendas, and now we are seeing yours.
> 
> Again, I am in favor of the free flow of ideas, not segregation.


Thanks for the kind words, Pluto.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Locke.Stratos said:


> If someone is in an abusive relationship where their husband abuses and hurts them, wouldn't cheating on the violent, abusive man be extremely ill-adviced:|?.. anyways,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Correction: Some posters.
> 
> There are intelligent posters here, and I'm sure that no intelligent person would condone or disregard and gloss over extreme and abusive behaviour and treatment towards another person.
> 
> 
> Forget about assigning blame or who's at fault. Infidelity is a choice, and the choice to cheat is on the person who chooses to cheat. Their decision and reasons/excuses may be understandable, but the choice to cheat is still theirs. The same with the betrayed spouse's behaviour and reaction to their wayward's spouse's affair, also understandable, whether you agree with it or not.
> 
> There was a poster who was on here ages ago whose wife had cheated on him. He wrote that sex with his wife only lasted around two minutes and the focus turned to his poor sexual performance and lacking. Is it understandable that in his wife's desire for sexual satisfaction she opted to sleep with someone else? Maybe, but the choice to cheat was still hers.
> 
> Also the betrayed spouse isn't automatically assumed to be the innocent party by default and all their actions before and after the affair absolved, and the wayward spouse considered the lying cheating wh*re/bastard. There were two posters on here the last few weeks, both betrayed spouses, who were basically run off this forum because some posters perceived their treatment of their wayward spouses to be abusive.
> I abhor infidelity but I've been understanding, offered advice, supported and corresponded with people who've cheated, on this forum and in life, and I'm sure many here have as well.
> 
> I think that there is a misconception that the opinions of some are the opinions of all.
> 
> Seriously *Mr.Fisty*, it's like you've never encountered people who hold an opposing view to yours or who are unreasonable, crazy, stupid, trolls, don't know any different or just plain a**holes before. The world is full of them, this forum is no different. Opinions and values are subjective. Adultery is illegal in some parts of the world, in others not. In some areas here you spend less time in prison for murdering someone than stealing a goat. Standards, opinions and morals differ across the globe and individually.
> 
> Some people post and write dumb s***. Those people tend to be very vocal and aggressive with their opinions, but don't assume that their views and attitudes form the general consensus.




I understand your view point. Mine is that The BS behavior affects the ability of the WS to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices. You are thinking that all WS are in the state of mind that they will make rational decisions.

Like abuse victims manifesting stockholm syndrome.

So if the potential WS leaves before the infidelity, then the potential BS had a role in that outcome, but when infidelity is involved, a different reaction you abhor and have an emotional response to, then the BS had nothing at all the mental, emotional state of that decision.

Some on here excuse the BS's irrational behavior because they are reacting from emotional pain. Whether it is a slap, verbal and emotional abuse, the WS is told to weather the storm. After all, it is emotional pain. I see it on here. WS have a change on the behavior and reaction of the WS, and I am stating the inverse is the same. A WS may not act rationally and be detach when they make their choices from pain and anger. Everyone reacts differently.

Sure, the best possible outcome is to leave, it makes it less complicated. Even so, the behavior of the BS and WS affect one another.

I know of a case where the wife left with the children, they were in high school at the time. Wife cheated, children chose to go with her. Father was neglectful, not part of the children's lives. They chose to abandon him like he did emotionally abandon them. The choice is 100^ theirs, and their father had nothing to do with that outcome. His drinking, partying, and neglect had nothing to do with their choice. They chose to hurt him. The baggage that ehy are carrying had no role in that choice.

Some on here only see cheating as betrayal, but things like neglect is their own form.

Depending on circumstance, I am quite indifferent about the subject of infidelity. Partners have a hand in programming their partner. Whether by slowly expanding sexual normatives, causing indifference and detachment, partners respond to their partners. Some will make irrational choices. Some will bring their baggage into any relationship like serial cheaters, and the outcome is set no matter wht the circumstances.


----------



## Healer

Mr.Fisty said:


> I understand your view point. Mine is that The BS behavior affects the ability of the WS to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices. You are thinking that all WS are in the state of mind that they will make rational decisions.
> 
> Like abuse victims manifesting stockholm syndrome.
> 
> So if the potential WS leaves before the infidelity, then the potential BS had a role in that outcome, but when infidelity is involved, a different reaction you abhor and have an emotional response to, then the BS had nothing at all the mental, emotional state of that decision.
> 
> Some on here excuse the BS's irrational behavior because they are reacting from emotional pain. Whether it is a slap, verbal and emotional abuse, the WS is told to weather the storm. After all, it is emotional pain. I see it on here. WS have a change on the behavior and reaction of the WS, and I am stating the inverse is the same. A WS may not act rationally and be detach when they make their choices from pain and anger. Everyone reacts differently.
> 
> Sure, the best possible outcome is to leave, it makes it less complicated. Even so, the behavior of the BS and WS affect one another.
> 
> I know of a case where the wife left with the children, they were in high school at the time. Wife cheated, children chose to go with her. Father was neglectful, not part of the children's lives. They chose to abandon him like he did emotionally abandon them. The choice is 100^ theirs, and their father had nothing to do with that outcome. His drinking, partying, and neglect had nothing to do with their choice. They chose to hurt him. The baggage that ehy are carrying had no role in that choice.
> 
> Some on here only see cheating as betrayal, but things like neglect is their own form.
> 
> Depending on circumstance, I am quite indifferent about the subject of infidelity. Partners have a hand in programming their partner. Whether by slowly expanding sexual normatives, causing indifference and detachment, partners respond to their partners. Some will make irrational choices. Some will bring their baggage into any relationship like serial cheaters, and the outcome is set no matter wht the circumstances.


Cliffs notes version:

The BS is responsible for the cheating of the WS, and the BS on this forum are responsible for the WS lack of ability to think rationally and do the right thing.


----------



## convert

Truthseeker1 said:


> There are no winners here..the only thing I came away with is there are a number of WSs and non-WSs who think the BS is partly at fault for the infidelity...its also made me more fond of RAs...


I agree

If all it takes in some cases is for the wayward spouses to feel lonely and have unmet needs to have an affair.
Then it would seem some betrayed spouses would have certainly enough justification to have a Revenge affair. There would be no winners.

If a wayward spouse was staying just for the kids and the betrayed spouse had a Revenge affair would they still stay in the marriage for the kids?


----------



## Truthseeker1

convert said:


> I agree
> 
> If all it takes in some cases is for the wayward spouses to feel lonely and have unmet needs to have an affair.
> *Then it would seem some betrayed spouses would have certainly enough justification to have a Revenge affai*r. There would be no winners


Exactly---and from what I have read on other sites where WS's have their own forum the cheating spouses cant criticize a BS fast enough for having an RA - they refer to them as madhatters - interesting watching cheaters get cheated on...


----------



## convert

Truthseeker1 said:


> Exactly---and from what I have read on other sites where WS's have their own forum the cheating spouses cant criticize a BS fast enough for having an RA - they refer to them as madhatters - interesting watching cheaters get cheated on...


yes

If a wayward spouse was staying just for the kids and the betrayed spouse had a Revenge affair would they still stay in the marriage for the kids?
why not, some might say it is basically the same situation.


----------



## Zanne

Healer said:


> Cliffs notes version:
> 
> The BS is responsible for the cheating of the WS, and the BS on this forum are responsible for the WS lack of ability to think rationally and do the right thing.


Healer, you seem to be a black/white thinker and that's okay, because that's YOU. It doesn't make you right though. But your contributions are valuable because your communication style and opinions may speak to certain people.

I didn't plan to get involved in this thread because I really don't care whether TAM has a specific forum for WS's. However, it bothered me how far off track this thread is from Rookie's OP:


Rookie4 said:


> Back when I first discovered my ex wife's affair. I visited a lot of forums to learn more about what was happening. One of those I visited was "Chat cheaters". It no longer exists. Why? *Because the moderators allowed the BS's to insult and and vilify all WS's and anybody else who disagreed with them.* So, eventually the forum died because it became just a pity party for BS's and everybody told the same stories over and over again, and nobody learned anything. TAM is in great danger of becoming the same thing. I would like to ask that there be specific forums for WS's and those actually wanting to learn to be able to do so without being mobbed by a lot of haters.


Rookie, I believe you made an important point when you said that the problem with "Chat Cheaters" was the lack of moderation. Many of the original responses to this thread (before it was rudely sidetracked) said as much. Do you believe TAM moderators are capable of keeping insults at bay?

I believe the moderators have done a well enough job of letting people speak their own feelings, even if one person's ideas offend another. People are allowed to have opinions, after all. I can recall several posters who have been permabanned for not playing nice.

Although, there is room for improvement. Isn't that the case for so many communities? Change comes from the ground up - from the people who contribute their questions and ideas and support to this forum. For example, people can speak up in respectful ways and not back down from so-called bullies.

What benefit would come from a separate space for WS's? Isn't the topic at hand about relationships and marriage? In my opinion, CWI is the forum for anything related to infidelity and everyone should be welcome to post if they are following the guidelines set forth by the owners of this website.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> Healer, you seem to be a black/white thinker and that's okay, because that's YOU. It doesn't make you right though. But your contributions are valuable because your communication style and opinions may speak to certain people.


Doesn't make me right about what?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Healer said:


> Cliffs notes version:
> 
> The BS is responsible for the cheating of the WS, and the BS on this forum are responsible for the WS lack of ability to think rationally and do the right thing.



Since you are not going to choose to comprehend due to your emotional baggage. Look at what your ex did to your mental, and emotionnal well-being. Has it not changed you or do you think that a person's actions have no consequences on others.

You think you can just separate actions of one person, place it in a vacuum, and that is it.

See, since you are an all or nothing person, while for someone like me, context is important, we will never see eye to eye. I view cause and effect and possible outcomes.

Beat your own child and see how well-adjusted they become as an experiment. Yes, you have a hand in how they turn out.

And I never stated aall, or you can only simply just react without thinking and just making declarative statements.

In terms of narcissism, seial cheaters, the outcome is nearly a forgone conclusion. But you like to use your pain and just think binary thoughts.

It is so easy to hide behind a belief and just stay there. I wanted rational conversation.


----------



## Wolf1974

Mr.Fisty said:


> Since you are not going to choose to comprehend due to your emotional baggage. Look at what your ex did to your mental, and emotionnal well-being. Has it not changed you or do you think that a person's actions have no consequences on others.
> 
> You think you can just separate actions of one person, place it in a vacuum, and that is it.
> 
> See, since you are an all or nothing person, while for someone like me, *context is important,* we will never see eye to eye. I view cause and effect and possible outcomes.
> 
> Beat your own child and see how well-adjusted they become as an experiment. Yes, you have a hand in how they turn out.
> 
> And I never stated aall, or you can only simply just react without thinking and just making declarative statements.
> 
> In terms of narcissism, seial cheaters, the outcome is nearly a forgone conclusion. But you like to use your pain and just think binary thoughts.
> 
> It is so easy to hide behind a belief and just stay there. I wanted rational conversation.


This goes beyond context in my opinion. It goes to if you believe in choice or not. If you look at affairs and bad marriages in the same lump it neglects the choice someone made. 

I have not seen anyone here saying the context of a bad marriage isn't important because it is. What is being argued is that affairs are a choice a person makes and that is seperate from the bad marriage because the "conditions" don't make you cheat, the choice you make does. This is evidenced because if all we needed for affairs to occur was bad marriages then everyone in bad marriages would cheat. All people in good marriages never would. But of course neither is true and the reason why neither is true is because some in good marriages choose to cheat as do some in bad. Some choose not to.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Wolf1974 said:


> This goes beyond context in my opinion. It goes to if you believe in choice or not. If you look at affairs and bad marriages in the same lump it neglects the choice someone made.
> 
> I have not seen anyone here saying the context of a bad marriage isn't important because it is. What is being argued is that affairs are a choice a person makes and that is seperate from the bad marriage because the "conditions" don't make you cheat, the choice you make does. This is evidenced because if all we needed for affairs to occur was bad marriages then everyone in bad marriages would cheat. All people in good marriages never would. But of course neither is true and the reason why neither is true is because some in good marriages choose to cheat as do some in bad. Some choose not to.




And I state, that Bs are sometimes have direct influence on the well-being of another and affect their ability of choice.

A BS who makes their partner feel worthless is has the possibility of getting cheated on or left, and possibly worse, like suicide.

The BS and WS can, and will change the person they are with.

There are some dysfunction like serial cheaters, narcissists that cheating will occur without the BS influence.

Sure, we all like people to make rational decisions, but we do not. Most in marriages and the like have no experience. People will fail people, and that is why context is important. Neglect is a form of betrayal as well, yet, some and I repeat some, will not find it as such or as damaging even though the effect may be accumulative. A death by a thousand cuts returned in the form of a backstab. It is not right in terms of outcome, but it happens.

Again, this is solely based on each relationship and the people involved. It is easy to simplify everything into one situation.


----------



## Pluto2

Mr.Fisty said:


> Since you are not going to choose to comprehend due to your emotional baggage. Look at what your ex did to your mental, and emotionnal well-being. Has it not changed you or do you think that a person's actions have no consequences on others.
> 
> You think you can just separate actions of one person, place it in a vacuum, and that is it.
> 
> See, since you are an all or nothing person, while for someone like me, context is important, we will never see eye to eye. I view cause and effect and possible outcomes.
> 
> Beat your own child and see how well-adjusted they become as an experiment. Yes, you have a hand in how they turn out.
> 
> And I never stated aall, or you can only simply just react without thinking and just making declarative statements.
> 
> In terms of narcissism, seial cheaters, the outcome is nearly a forgone conclusion. But you like to use your pain and just think binary thoughts.
> 
> It is so easy to hide behind a belief and just stay there. I wanted rational conversation.


Fisty, first did you get my longish PM. The compute froze and I can't tell if it went through.

Having said that, I'm happy to try to have a conversation with you.
I would agree that every experience we've ever had during the course of our lives has contributed in one way or another to develop the individual each of us are today.

Some times, we can easily identify damaging behavior and reject it promptly. And lord knows, one mans damaging behavior can be another man's fun Saturday night out.

I'm also of the opinion that what we choose to do with those different and compounding experiences also helps turn us into the people we each are today. Two kids on a street find twenty buck immediately behind an elderly person. One kid picks it up and puts the dollar in his pocket, the other picks it up and runs to the nearby adult to ask if it was his/hers. We could judge each child. Maybe the first child has no food at home and felt compelled to keep the money to feed himself. We don't always know. Each child will carry away a different experience and it will change them.

That's why people react differently. We start from different places and have different experiences and subsequently different expectations from those experiences. IMO, we are all happier when we clearly voice those expectations to others. It took me a while to get there.

So absolutely we all contribute to others' lives, and how we choose to respond remains-to me- our own responsibility. How others behave and treat us says a lot about who they are, and may offer an explanation as to why we chose a particular course of conduct. The choice remains ours. 

So if two people are in a dysfunctional relationship-whatever their dysfunction of the day happens to be-of course they are impacting each other. My ex's mental illness contributed to my becoming co-dependent. But it was my choice to do something about that. My choice did not involve having an affair. I'm not saying that to jump up and down and scream "oh look at me, aren't I good." My choice was to divorce. I am responsible for that.


----------



## Healer

Mr.Fisty said:


> Since you are not going to choose to comprehend due to your emotional baggage. Look at what your ex did to your mental, and emotionnal well-being. Has it not changed you or do you think that a person's actions have no consequences on others.


A lack of agreement does not equal a lack of comprehension. My "emotional baggage"? How arrogant and presumptuous of you. Of course my ex's cheating affected my emotional well being. That's what cheating does. But I'm doing great now, thanks for your concern. ;-)



Mr.Fisty said:


> You think you can just separate actions of one person, place it in a vacuum, and that is it.


Where did I state this? Oh right, I didn't. And no, I don't think that. That doesn't change the fact that the cheating is 100% on the cheater.



Mr.Fisty said:


> See, since you are an all or nothing person, while for someone like me, context is important, we will never see eye to eye. I view cause and effect and possible outcomes.


Wow, you sure presume to know a lot about me. The statement that I'm an "all or nothing person" certainly is an "all or nothing" statement. Again - an extremely arrogant and presumptuous statement to make. Not to mention incorrect. And rather trite.



Mr.Fisty said:


> Beat your own child and see how well-adjusted they become as an experiment. Yes, you have a hand in how they turn out.


I'll pass, thanks. Child abuse ain't really my bag. I have a hand in how they turn out?? Why didn't someone tell me this sooner??? Lol.



Mr.Fisty said:


> And I never stated aall, or you can only simply just react without thinking and just making declarative statements.


I don't know what this means.



Mr.Fisty said:


> In terms of narcissism, seial cheaters, the outcome is nearly a forgone conclusion. But you like to use your pain and just think binary thoughts.


Again - very incomprehensible. "My pain" has nothing to do with the fact that cheating is on the cheater. Problems in the marriage are both spouse's accountability. The cheater is solely accountable for cheating.



Mr.Fisty said:


> It is so easy to hide behind a belief and just stay there. I wanted rational conversation.


I'm not hiding behind anything. If you want a rational conversation, you should refrain from telling me what I think, what I feel and who I am. Arrogance and rational conversation don't mix. You need to do some rethinking. 

Get back to me when you've thought things through a little more deeply and removed your ego from the conversation.


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> This goes beyond context in my opinion. It goes to if you believe in choice or not. If you look at affairs and bad marriages in the same lump it neglects the choice someone made.
> 
> I have not seen anyone here saying the context of a bad marriage isn't important because it is. What is being argued is that affairs are a choice a person makes and that is seperate from the bad marriage because the "conditions" don't make you cheat, the choice you make does. This is evidenced because if all we needed for affairs to occur was bad marriages then everyone in bad marriages would cheat. All people in good marriages never would. But of course neither is true and the reason why neither is true is because some in good marriages choose to cheat as do some in bad. Some choose not to.


Well put.


----------



## Healer

Mr.Fisty said:


> And I state, that Bs are sometimes have direct influence on the well-being of another and affect their ability of choice.


Incorrect. Unless you are physically forced or under duress, nobody can make that choice for you. Keep trying though.



Mr.Fisty said:


> A BS who makes their partner feel worthless is has the possibility of getting cheated on or left, and possibly worse, like suicide.


And a BS who treats their WS like gold has the possibility of being cheated on. What's your point? Suicide? Now we're causing people to off themselves? Lol.


----------



## GusPolinski

I have more that I'd like to contribute to this conversation, but before I do... well, I'm feeling the need to first ask this...
@Rookie4, are you planning to delete this thread?


----------



## Healer

Dr. Fisty - all of your long-winded, sometimes incomprehensible posts are a drawn out and wordy way of saying that BS's actions or lack thereof are the cause of the WS infidelity. We get that you believe that. Many people do - most of them are cheaters who lack accountability. Telling me about "my pain" and how I think - how I feel - these things don't lend any credibility to your assertions - they just make you look arrogant and misinformed.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Mr.Fisty said:


> Since you are not going to choose to comprehend due to your emotional baggage. Look at what your ex did to your mental, and emotionnal well-being. Has it not changed you or do you think that a person's actions have no consequences on others.
> 
> You think you can just separate actions of one person, place it in a vacuum, and that is it.
> 
> See, since you are an all or nothing person, while for someone like me, context is important, we will never see eye to eye. I view cause and effect and possible outcomes.
> 
> Beat your own child and see how well-adjusted they become as an experiment. Yes, you have a hand in how they turn out.
> 
> And I never stated aall, or you can only simply just react without thinking and just making declarative statements.
> 
> In terms of narcissism, seial cheaters, the outcome is nearly a forgone conclusion. But you like to use your pain and just think binary thoughts.
> 
> It is so easy to hide behind a belief and just stay there. I wanted rational conversation.


........I wish I had your ability to express myself about this type of issue.

Unless they have proven otherwise, I think any poster here should be respected and their words and thoughts taken at face value. Most of us are here trying to find a path to self improvement or healing of some type, or of being of usefulness to someone else who has had the same struggles as we have. This thread alone has shown how easy it is to take someone's clear words and stretch/extrapolate them far beyond the seeming intent. I am not choosing sides here.....many are doing this. You know who you are if you are self honest.

I believe many if not most WS do not start off with an intent to go off and disrespect their spouse and marriage and just "get their rocks off"........in other words, there is no singular "decision" to go out and cheat. But every human has areas of emotional weakness and/or vulnerability..........it just differs in each person as to the magnitude and and type. These areas can be caused by many things, ranging from childhood abuse/issues, to life's tragedies, to yes.....here it is........problems within the marriage. None of this stuff is happening in a vacuum, and every situation is different. And yes, many of us can easily deal with most of this stuff without cheating, or alcohol, or beating spouse and kids, etc. But unfortunately, sometimes things line up wrong, leading to awful behavior and actions.

But FWIW.........if a BS truly wants to get some insight into the behavior of their WS, then another WS who has gone thru a lot of self evaluation and improvement can provide s good set of answers.

Likewise, if a WS or a person on the edge of being a WS, is looking for why this is happening or how to pragmatically stop, then a recovered WS can probably be of great help. 

It is difficult to have this level of detailed discussion on here without many triggers occurring unfortunately.

Thought for the day.........if a WS would like to stop, consider that just telling them to stop being so selfish and just stop, is like telling a fat person to just not eat so much. That is not a wrong answer, it is just not very helpful.


----------



## Zanne

Healer said:


> Doesn't make me right about what?


About anything.

And BTW, I'm sorry to single you out. I was referring to your posts as an example of someone who thinks in a black/white way, in my opinion. You have the right to your opinions.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> My point, Carmen is that the jury is still out about whether or not a reconciled marriage is a "good " one or not. From my experience and from the people I know who have reconciled, I tend to believe that most of these reconciled marriages are a great deal less than good. Who wants to live their lives with the 9 hundred pound gorilla of cheating, always in the corner. I wouldn't and didn't. I think if people were really honest about it, most of them are settling for something less. A very lucky few can renew their marriages, like a new one, but they are very few and far between.


Dear Rookie4,

I'm getting tired with going around-and-around on this issue, so let me just share a personal reflection with you and offer a small piece of advice.

I'm sort of in your camp on the question of whether it is ever a good idea to reconcile. I, too, question whether one can truly repair a marriage that has been marred by infidelity. But, since I have never been cheated on that I know of (I don't count the girl friend in college whom I was madly in love with and who started dating other guys behind my back before dumping me unceremonious at the end of a date on which I blew an entire months worth of spending money), and since so many posters here who have intimate experience (no pun intended) with adultery seem to think it can under some circumstances, I'm willing to accept what seems to be the majority view and try to help people who want to reconcile.

What I find disagreeable about your posts is that, well, you are so disagreeable. Your MO is to say _"always"_ instead of _"usually,"_ _"never"_ instead of _"rarely"_ and _"you're wrong"_ rather than _"I don't agree."_ Everything seems black and white to you.

You're obviously a really smart guy and someone who thinks hard about issues and who cares a lot. IMO, you would be a much better poster if you just lightened up a bit.

Regards.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> About anything.
> 
> And BTW, I'm sorry to single you out. I was referring to your posts as an example of someone who thinks in a black/white way, in my opinion. You have the right to your opinions.


I'm guessing you cheated on your spouse or SO?


----------



## Healer

oneMOreguy said:


> ...if a WS would like to stop, consider that just telling them to stop being so selfish and just stop, is like telling a fat person to just not eat so much.


Oh my God.


----------



## Healer

carmen ohio said:


> Everything seems black and white to you.


Hey, that's supposed to be MY thing!!


----------



## oneMOreguy

Healer said:


> Oh my God.


....I also believe in God. But I tend not to involve him when I disagree with someone.........and yes, that is supposed to be tongue in cheek humor.....please don't take offense.

Maybe a better way to discuss is to just say you disagree and why. I know these things are triggers, and triggers hurt. And hurt leads to anger. But oversimplifications lead to bad conclusions and poor results. 

Maybe it just comes down to.........do the posters on this site value the honest and uncensored information that a well-intentioned WS can provide, even if some do not like that particular answer??

If you cannot honestly answer yes to that question, then this whole thread discussion is useless and R4 has made his point.


----------



## Healer

oneMOreguy said:


> ....I also believe in God. But I tend not to involve him when I disagree with someone.........and yes, that is supposed to be tongue in cheek humor.....please don't take offense.
> 
> Maybe a better way to discuss is to just say you disagree and why. I know these things are triggers, and triggers hurt. And hurt leads to anger. But oversimplifications lead to bad conclusions and poor results.
> 
> Maybe it just comes down to.........do the posters on this site value the honest and uncensored information that a well-intentioned WS can provide, even if some do not like that particular answer??
> 
> If you cannot honestly answer yes to that question, then this whole thread discussion is useless and R4 has made his point.


Here's the thing - I'm not triggering or angry. I was done triggering some time ago. My anger has subsided - I'm on good terms with my exww and wish her all the best. I want her to be happy so she is a well adjusted person for my kids when they are with her. I'm a much happier and healthier person, no longer on Zoloft since I divorced her. I'm med free. I'm living life again - no longer a prisoner of her insecurity and low self esteem which led to extreme jealousy and distrust (ironically). 

I do not believe that assigning responsibility and culpability for cheating to the cheater is an oversimplification. Do I believe every BS was a good spouse and a good person who never did wrong? Of course not. Do I believe all WS are inherently evil, horrible people through and through? Of course not. Do I believe cheating is a choice - the choice of one person in the marriage, that it is a conscious choice, a horrible thing, a cruel and selfish thing, and not the only choice? Yes, I do. Do I believe there is no excuse for cheating and that one should end a marriage before doing so? Yes. 

"Maybe it just comes down to.........do the posters on this site value the honest and uncensored information that a well-intentioned WS can provide, even if some do not like that particular answer??"

That depends on what is being provided. In some cases, absolutely. In others, no. For me in particular, I don't really get a whole lot out of it because my questions have already been answered. I know why my exww cheated. There is no mystery. So in a general sense, I guess it's interesting, but I'm not really searching for the why anymore. But if a genuinely remorseful and contrite WS can come here and offer information or insight to people who are seeking it or need it, that's great.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Healer said:


> Here's the thing - I'm not triggering or angry. I was done triggering some time ago. My anger has subsided - I'm on good terms with my exww and wish her all the best. I want her to be happy so she is a well adjusted person for my kids when they are with her. I'm a much happier and healthier person, no longer on Zoloft since I divorced her. I'm med free. I'm living life again - no longer a prisoner of her insecurity and low self esteem which led to extreme jealousy and distrust (ironically).
> 
> I do not believe that assigning responsibility and culpability for cheating to the cheater is an oversimplification. Do I believe every BS was a good spouse and a good person who never did wrong? Of course not. Do I believe all WS are inherently evil, horrible people through and through? Of course not. Do I believe cheating is a choice - the choice of one person in the marriage, that it is a conscious choice, a horrible thing, a cruel and selfish thing, and not the only choice? Yes, I do. Do I believe there is no excuse for cheating and that one should end a marriage before doing so? Yes.
> 
> "Maybe it just comes down to.........do the posters on this site value the honest and uncensored information that a well-intentioned WS can provide, even if some do not like that particular answer??"
> 
> That depends on what is being provided. In some cases, absolutely. In others, no. For me in particular, I don't really get a whole lot out of it because my questions have already been answered. I know why my exww cheated. There is no mystery. So in a general sense, I guess it's interesting, but I'm not really searching for the why anymore. But if a genuinely remorseful and contrite WS can come here and offer information or insight to people who are seeking it or need it, that's great.


...thank you.....that is a reply we all can accept and work with. 

I am trained as an engineer and spent most of my years thinking of life as black/white or as kinda formula driven. But after my disastrous friendships with some young folks (more inappropriate behavior rather than the typical EA/PA we have here) I have taken a harder look at my life and why I respond like I do, and have spent a lot of time reading and visiting sites like this. 

Wow....my eyes were opened......humans are so complicated and yet similar in so many ways........not at all like machines and industrial equipment.......grinning a tiny bit. And I discovered just how damaged I was from my childhood, and how that screwed up some basic assumptions I made on decision making. People really do screw up in many ways and for many reasons. But maybe we can utilize WS to help evaluate and fix some of these screw ups. 

OK.......gotta go for now.........much higher priority issue.........we have tickets to the baseball post season, and tonight is the first game of the world series.........Go Royals!!!!!


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Rookie, a civil conversation was attempted and still she left. No one was asking anyone for an "apology"-just a conversation. There was no name calling, not accusations and no attacking-just a freaking conversation.
> 
> So was this because we bitter angry BS were unwilling to really listen to other side.


I saw no reason for Wanda to leave. I think most posters were civil and courteous. I think Wanda wanted to discus this thread in general, but not her specific situation. But that is her choice. I believe that if more interactions were like this, there might be some who leave, but most would stay , as long as they (BS and WS) are not attacked and put on the defensive. This is the type of conversation I like.


----------



## WandaJ

Ok, just one more word. I did not read what happened after I left, just saw the last post. I apologize I joined the conversation. I usually avoid those thread and CIW. I simply do not have time to engage in the longs discussions, my work is too busy . I also do not have stamina to go into lenghty confrontation, and should have stayed out of the thread. I avoid confrontation most of the time, and when I do not, I usually regret it. It's just not for me.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> I have more that I'd like to contribute to this conversation, but before I do... well, I'm feeling the need to first ask this...
> @Rookie4, are you planning to delete this thread?


No, Gus, I had not planned to. Why do you ask?


----------



## Pluto2

So what this thread has demonstrated is that the OP's desire for a special section for WS is unnecessary. TAMers, for the most part, know how to have conversations. Absolutely some go overboard, and those "some" happen to be BS, WS, and others.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> No, Gus, I had not planned to. Why do you ask?


Well, because...



GusPolinski said:


> Normally I stay out of Rookie's threads. Or, at the very least, I refrain from posting in them. Or posting much. I mean... most of the time there's just no point. It's just a bunch of back and forth that has nothing to do w/ any particular instance of infidelity, and the thread eventually gets locked or deleted. *In one particular thread, I spent hours not only debating and communicating my own perspective, but also sharing more of my own story than I've ever shared, and just when I thought that I'd reached some sort of breakthrough... the thread gets deleted.*


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> Dear Rookie4,
> 
> I'm getting tired with going around-and-around on this issue, so let me just share a personal reflection with you and offer a small piece of advice.
> 
> I'm sort of in your camp on the question of whether it is ever a good idea to reconcile. I, too, question whether one can truly repair a marriage that has been marred by infidelity. But, since I have never been cheated on that I know of (I don't count the girl friend in college whom I was madly in love with and who started dating other guys behind my back before dumping me unceremonious at the end of a date on which I blew an entire months worth of spending money), and since so many posters here who have intimate experience (no pun intended) with adultery seem to think it can under some circumstances, I'm willing to accept what seems to be the majority view and try to help people who want to reconcile.
> 
> What I find disagreeable about your posts is that, well, you are so disagreeable. Your MO is to say _"always"_ instead of _"usually,"_ _"never"_ instead of _"rarely"_ and _"you're wrong"_ rather than _"I don't agree."_ Everything seems black and white to you.
> 
> You're obviously a really smart guy and someone who thinks hard about issues and who cares a lot. IMO, you would be a much better poster if you just lightened up a bit.
> 
> Regards.


I am SHOCKED, I say SHOCKED, :surprise:to hear that anybody would ever think I was anything more or less, than a Bon Vivant. I will have you know that I am noted for my sense of humor, my impeccable manners, and my boyish charm.:smile2:


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> I am SHOCKED, I say SHOCKED, :surprise:to hear that anybody would ever think I was anything more or less, than a Bon Vivant. I will have you know that I am noted for my sense of humor, my impeccable manners, and my boyish charm.:smile2:


...and then you got broadband.

:lol: :rofl:


----------



## Rookie4

WandaJ said:


> Ok, just one more word. I did not read what happened after I left, just saw the last post. I apologize I joined the conversation. I usually avoid those thread and CIW. I simply do not have time to engage in the longs discussions, my work is too busy . I also do not have stamina to go into lenghty confrontation, and should have stayed out of the thread. I avoid confrontation most of the time, and when I do not, I usually regret it. It's just not for me.


This is an honest answer. I hope you will not be a stranger, and I think you have opinions that would add value to the CWI forum. Personally, I don't agree with some of your opinions, but I think that I and a lot of posters are very willing to listen.


----------



## carmen ohio

Rookie4 said:


> I am SHOCKED, I say SHOCKED, :surprise:to hear that anybody would ever think I was anything more or less, than a Bon Vivant. I will have you know that I am noted for my sense of humor, my impeccable manners, and my boyish charm.:smile2:


I never said you aren't a bon vivant.


----------



## Rookie4

carmen ohio said:


> I never said you aren't a bon vivant.


Thank you..........thank you very much.


----------



## larry.gray

GusPolinski said:


> In one particular thread, I spent hours not only debating and communicating my own perspective, but also sharing more of my own story than I've ever shared, and just when I thought that I'd reached some sort of breakthrough... the thread gets deleted.


I find that very deflating. Some of the best stuff I've ever posted on TAM is in the dustbin that only moderators can see. 

A couple of years back there was a poster here who wanted to vent and play Eeyore more than actually fix things. His situation reflected mine quite closely. I will say a heck of a lot of the issues in my marriage were my own, and I was the one who needed to change the most.

I was seeing right in his posts that his mindset and way of interacting were mirroring the way I behaved. I challenged him... respectfully but challenging nonetheless. Several more joined in saying the same thing. He responded by deleting the thread.

He's since been banned, come back several times and banned again. He may or may not be still around. Until his attitude and relationship style change, he's going to be whacking off to porn instead of enjoying intimacy with his wife.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> I understand your view point. Mine is that The BS behavior affects the ability of the WS to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices. You are thinking that all WS are in the state of mind that they will make rational decisions.
> 
> Like abuse victims manifesting stockholm syndrome.


I don't get how it's similar to abuse victims manifesting stockholm syndrome. Is the betrayed spouse the abuser and the wayward spouse the _abuse victim_ in this scenario?.. because someone with Stockholm Syndrome wouldn't cheat on their abuser/victimizer.

Well if the wayward spouse's inability to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices is due to the betrayed spouse's _behaviour_, then shouldn't the betrayed spouse also be afforded the same courtesy in that scenario?

Who's to say that there aren't factors in the betrayed spouse's life, maybe even their pre-wayward spouse's _behaviour_, that affect their ability to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices that resulted in said _behaviour_?

Your assertion is that the betrayed spouse fostered an environment that is directly responsible for their wayward spouse's affair/inability-to-use-higher-order-thinking-to-make-sound-rational-choices.

If you can excuse the wayward's affair because of the (assumed) role their betrayed spouse's behaviour played in their choice to cheat, then can't you also excuse the betrayed spouse's behaviour due to whatever factors contributed to that behaviour?

Infidelity has occurred in both good and bad marriages, but it seems like you're putting it all on the betrayed spouse's behaviour.

Some have cheated solely because the opportunity had presented itself, with no forethought or prior consideration where there were no indicators in their (betrayed & wayaward's) behaviour and life up until that point that would have led anyone to believe that the wayward would ever be unfaithful.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> So if the potential WS leaves before the infidelity, then the potential BS had a role in that outcome, but when infidelity is involved, a different reaction you abhor and have an emotional response to, then the BS had nothing at all the mental, emotional state of that decision.


#1. A woman hits a man, he walks away. She had a role in that outcome, her behaviour (hitting him) led to him walking away.
#2. A woman hits a man, he knocks her out. She had a role in that outcome too, her behaviour (hitting him) led to him knocking her out.

Which one of the two is more acceptable to you?

There could be legitimate reasons why she hit him, maybe even why he reacted the way he did in #2, but he had a choice in how he reacted, regardless of whether his ability to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices was affected or not.

You might have a reaction to both scenarios, but probably a more intense one to #2 right..


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> Some on here excuse the BS's irrational behavior because they are reacting from emotional pain. Whether it is a slap, verbal and emotional abuse, the WS is told to weather the storm. After all, it is emotional pain. I see it on here. WS have a change on the behavior and reaction of the WS, and I am stating the inverse is the same. A WS may not act rationally and be detach when they make their choices from pain and anger. Everyone reacts differently.
> 
> Sure, the best possible outcome is to leave, it makes it less complicated. Even so, the behavior of the BS and WS affect one another.


I think you missed the part were I mentioned that some posters write dumb s*** and of the two (betrayed) posters on here recently that were basically run off for exhibiting what you refer to as irrational behaviour. Some excuse their behaviour, some don't. That depends on the poster and the situation. 

And when it comes to the extreme emotional stress and trauma of infidelity, reactions vary and there is no determinant for what is or isn't irrational behaviour, only what some do or don't tolerate and see as acceptable. To slap someone after you discover them having an affair, unacceptable for a husband to do to a wife but not such a big deal the other way around. In other societies, cultures and religions the former is acceptable.

Some betrayed spouses react with anger and vitriol, some instantaneously forgive, some assume all fault and guilt, some cry and break down and others become numb, shut down and go into shock. What is and isn't irrational?

On the matter of '_reacting from emotional pain_', there are numerous instances where the wayward cheated following the death of a close relative or friend. Where the adultery happened as a result of the wayward spouse being in emotional pain due to grief and loss. Since you're concerned with assigning fault, who (if anyone) is at fault in that situation?


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> I know of a case where the wife left with the children, they were in high school at the time. Wife cheated, children chose to go with her. Father was neglectful, not part of the children's lives. They chose to abandon him like he did emotionally abandon them. The choice is 100^ theirs, and their father had nothing to do with that outcome. His drinking, partying, and neglect had nothing to do with their choice. They chose to hurt him. The baggage that ehy are carrying had no role in that choice.


The choice to leave is theirs, and no one can say it isn't a good choice, but neither is the wife's choice to cheat. She could have left with the children and the outcome would have been the same except she wouldn't have cheated. It seems she only left because she was involved with someone else.

Was it necessary that she cheat, was that really her only option. With regard to his behaviour, did she take appropriate action or make any effort in remedying it? _For Better Or For Worse_, this certainly seemed to qualify as _For Worse_. She could have tried to address his behaviour, asked friends and family for help and support, staged an intervention, or simply have said "F*** it! Screw you, we're out a**hole" and left.

You want to use his behaviour as a reason to excuse her decsion to engage in adultery.. okay. Then what if there are reasons for his drinking, partying and neglect?

Maybe he experienced abuse and neglect in his upbringing and doesn't know how or is incapabable of showing love and affection to his family. Maybe his drinking and partying are (poor) coping mechanisms for some pain and hurt he doesn't know how to deal with. Maybe he has some form of clinical depression or mood disorder that affects his behaviour and has an adverse affect on his relationships with the people in his life. Maybe he has repressed and unresolved issues, abuse, PTSD, trauma, etc.

How would you feel about his neglect, partying and drinking if any of the above were true? Would you excuse his behaviour as well. I'm sure the above would probably affect the ability of the husband to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> That's all what takes? For a person to cheat? Nah, I don't agree. So let me get this straight - the only "way out" was for you to go behind your husband's back and have sex with another man? How is that a "way out"? How is that a way out and divorce isn't? Why didn't you divorce? How was cheating the better way than ending your horrible marriage?
> 
> I was trapped in a horrible marriage, miserable, lonely and angry too. I didn't cheat. I made the choice not to.


This is something you need to think about.

Yes to divorce is preferable to cheating, but do you really think everyone else is stupid enough not to see that? Shouldn't you be committed to a marriage? Isn't being too ready to break your vows and divorce too easily also a fault? Ehen is divorce justified? What happens when you are trying to do neither, and you hit the wall and break? What happens when you think you can control it and you find you can't? Not every waywArd is in that position, but some are.

You didn't cheat when things were bad, and that is a good thing. But is it because you are a superior human being, or because the "right" combination of circumstances did not arise? 

You are just being WAY too simplistic about people and their imperfections.


----------



## Wazza

WandaJ said:


> Ok, just one more word. I did not read what happened after I left, just saw the last post. I apologize I joined the conversation. I usually avoid those thread and CIW. I simply do not have time to engage in the longs discussions, my work is too busy . I also do not have stamina to go into lenghty confrontation, and should have stayed out of the thread. I avoid confrontation most of the time, and when I do not, I usually regret it. It's just not for me.


I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I think the thread benefited from your perspective,


----------



## Wazza

Pluto2 said:


> Is it?
> 
> I ask because there are lots of BS here who were/are in a miserable state, lonely, angry and not seeing a way out of their situation-yet they don't have affairs.
> 
> So to me there really is something more otherwise everyone in that situation would engage in infidelity-and they clearly don't.


One missing ingredient is circumstance. Which may include, but is not limited to, the weaknesses of the person who cheats.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Locke.Stratos said:


> The choice to leave is theirs, and no one can say it isn't a good choice, but neither is the wife's choice to cheat. She could have left with the children and the outcome would have been the same except she wouldn't have cheated. It seems she only left because she was involved with someone else.
> 
> Was it necessary that she cheat, was that really her only option. With regard to his behaviour, did she take appropriate action or make any effort in remedying it? _For Better Or For Worse_, this certainly seemed to qualify as _For Worse_. She could have tried to address his behaviour, asked friends and family for help and support, staged an intervention, or simply have said "F*** it! Screw you, we're out a**hole" and left.
> 
> You want to use his behaviour as a reason to excuse her decsion to engage in adultery.. okay. Then what if there are reasons for his drinking, partying and neglect?
> 
> Maybe he experienced abuse and neglect in his upbringing and doesn't know how or is incapabable of showing love and affection to his family. Maybe his drinking and partying are (poor) coping mechanisms for some pain and hurt he doesn't know how to deal with. Maybe he has some form of clinical depression or mood disorder that affects his behaviour and has an adverse affect on his relationships with the people in his life. Maybe he has repressed and unresolved issues, abuse, PTSD, trauma, etc.
> 
> How would you feel about his neglect, partying and drinking if any of the above were true? Would you excuse his behaviour as well. I'm sure the above would probably affect the ability of the husband to use higher order thinking to make sound rational choices.


 Idealistically, we would all like everyone to respond in the most logical manner, but that will not occur. A BS emotionally abuses the WS, whether you or anyone else like what consequences may occur in response, the BS has made the outcome possible. Somehow a BS who betrays their relationship through neglect and abuse feels entitled to a faithful spouse. If a spouse abuses their partner and the partner suffers depression and drinks, then they are in part responsible for that outcome. Whether they like the consequence or not, they changed their partner through their action. People are plastic where they are constantly molded by environmental factors. An abuse victim may not be able to function in a normal healthy relationship once they leave their abusers.

Perhaps if people learn good boundaries, negative consequnces will be limited, but when regress to that of a adolescence,people will make unwise choices.

Were the WS mentally healthy, the probability of them making a better decision would be greater.

Dysfunctional people make dysfunctional choices. A dysfunctional BS will cause dysfunction in others that are highly attached.

I even never stated that a BS is 100% in fault for the out come. In areas that are less gray like narcissists,serial cheaters, the BS will probably have no part in those cases.

We also do not see alot of BS being told that after an affair, that they are 100% responsible for their response. Some even blame the WS if they are occasionally slapped, put down, just simply abused. You see some posters stating that the WS deserves it for the pain they cause. Funny, since I do not see the reverse being said when a BS causes pain. BS hurts WS, WS hurts BS, and then for some, BS is justified in hurting the WS. We do not see that the BS chose to sabotage their own relationship, or they choose to punish the WS for the infidelity then they, themselves, can take the higher road as well. It is not a common sight.

Here is the weird thing on TAM, when a WS choose to walk away, some will blame the person for their neglect and abuse as the reason why the WS walked away, but when infidelity is involved that person had no result in that outcome.

Btw, I am only going to respond to Lock. Do not have the energy to go back and forth with everyone who wants to get in. Most of your position is already known and is not that different in response.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> This is something you need to think about.
> 
> Yes to divorce is preferable to cheating, but do you really think everyone else is stupid enough not to see that?
> 
> *Apparently some are. What I would say is that they are too much of cowards to do the right thing*
> 
> Shouldn't you be committed to a marriage?
> *Should the WS? You know the one who took vows to you not to cheat?*
> 
> Isn't being too ready to break your vows and divorce too easily also a fault? Ehen is divorce justified?
> 
> *Up to the individual but clearly infidelity is an important part of the vows since it is stated right in them. My vows had nothing to do with must forgive all transgressions... I would have never agreed to to any of that*
> 
> What happens when you are trying to do neither, and you hit the wall and break? What happens when you think you can control it and you find you can't? Not every waywArd is in that position, but some are.
> 
> *I know of no one in life is who hasn't faced temptation. And I mean no one myself included, what I do know is that some chose to make the right decision and others didn't*
> 
> You didn't cheat when things were bad, and that is a good thing. But is it because you are a superior human being, or because the "right" combination of circumstances did not arise?
> 
> *Again I had right circumstances arise 3 times. I am defining these as super attractive women offering up a no strings attached one night stand while I was married. Turned them down every time. Does that make me superior? Nope not at all. Just the ability to make the right choice and stick to the vows I made. It's a really really sad and Pathetic state of affairs of marriage that you would even consider keeping something as simple as vows some Herculean effort.
> *
> You are just being WAY too simplistic about people and their imperfections.


I know I'm not. being too simplistic would mean you should never feel tempted. Most people will. But it's not to simplistic to make a promise/vow and stick to it. And if you can't "insert reason here" then divorce and move on


----------



## Pluto2

Wazza said:


> One missing ingredient is circumstance. Which may include, but is not limited to, the weaknesses of the person who cheats.


Circumstances and weakness explain why some people made the 
CHOICE to cheat, but does not remove the responsibility for their actions.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> This is something you need to think about.
> 
> Yes to divorce is preferable to cheating, but do you really think everyone else is stupid enough not to see that?


Not everyone else, but clearly some people. i.e. people who cheat.




Wazza said:


> Shouldn't you be committed to a marriage? Isn't being too ready to break your vows and divorce too easily also a fault? Ehen is divorce justified? What happens when you are trying to do neither, and you hit the wall and break? What happens when you think you can control it and you find you can't? Not every waywArd is in that position, but some are.


I was committed to marriage, wholly. "Too ready" to break MY vows? Uhhh - I didn't break my vows. My exww did. She cheated for months on end with more than one person - left on my daughter's 5th birthday via text. I tried over and over again to get her to give us another shot. She kept saying no, it was too late, go live your life, you're free, go be great. I've done you a "favor". So eventually I did. As soon as she found out I had moved on (at her behest), she freaked out and begged for me to give her another shot. I did and we tried to R. After 10 weeks I realized my love for her had died and that I could never forgive what she did, so I filed for divorce.

Don't you accuse me of "breaking my vows" or that I "divorced easily" - ****ing arrogant! I fought tooth and nail to save my marriage. She killed it dead. I did everything I could to forgive and make it work - it wasn't possible. You have a lot of nerve and you're talking out of your ass.



Wazza said:


> You didn't cheat when things were bad, and that is a good thing. But is it because you are a superior human being, or because the "right" combination of circumstances did not arise?


It's because I CHOSE not to cheat. Because that would've been a cruel, horrible, selfish, childish thing to do - and I CHOSE to do the right thing. The "right" combination of circumstances? Like constantly being accused of cheating myself (for over a decade) and being treated like I was cheating anyway, being a successful musician with ample opportunity to cheat with beautiful women and never get caught? The "circumstances" don't get much riper than that to cheat. Guess what? I STILL *CHOSE* NOT TO CHEAT. "superior human being"? Call it whatever you want. I chose to do the right thing.



Wazza said:


> You are just being WAY too simplistic about people and their imperfections.


And you clearly don't know what the **** you're talking about. Arrogance and ignorance - nice combo.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> One missing ingredient is circumstance. Which may include, but is not limited to, the weaknesses of the person who cheats.


Possibly , this could be true, but sometimes "circumstance" is just another excuse.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> I know I'm not. being too simplistic would mean you should never feel tempted. Most people will. But it's not to simplistic to make a promise/vow and stick to it. And if you can't "insert reason here" then divorce and move on


We used to have another poster , who stated many times that he would, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES OF ANY KIND, ever cheat. I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now. I know of nobody, who is so God-like that they can predict with absolute certainty how they will react under extraordinary or unfamiliar circumstances.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Circumstances and weakness explain why some people made the
> CHOICE to cheat, but does not remove the responsibility for their actions.


I agree, but I don't think anybody is saying that it does. Giving reasons for why an accident occurred doesn't absolve anybody from fault. The trick is deciding which are legitimate reasons, and which are excuses. This isn't as easy as some posters make it out to be.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> We used to have another poster , who stated many times that he would, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES OF ANY KIND, ever cheat. I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now. I know of nobody, who is so God-like that they can predict with absolute certainty how they will react under extraordinary or unfamiliar circumstances.


Speak for yourself. I was tested, tested and tested again, and had the perfect set of circumstances to cheat. I didn't.

You can spout off that "anyone is capable of cheating" all you want. Doesn't make it true. You either cheat, or you don't. Clearly there are scores of people who had the opportunity, and an "excuse" to cheat, and went to their graves never having done so.

So, your argument fails.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, but I don't think anybody is saying that it does. Giving reasons for why an accident occurred doesn't absolve anybody from fault. The trick is deciding which are legitimate reasons, and which are excuses. This isn't as easy as some posters make it out to be.


Cheating isn't an accident. Useless analogy.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Speak for yourself. I was tested, tested and tested again, and had the perfect set of circumstances to cheat. I didn't.
> 
> You can spout off that "anyone is capable of cheating" all you want. Doesn't make it true. You either cheat, or you don't. Clearly there are scores of people who had the opportunity, and an "excuse" to cheat, and went to their graves never having done so.
> 
> So, your argument fails.


I agree anyone can fail. I don't think I would ever cheat.

Could aliens land and zap me with a mind ray to make me forget I'm married and cheat? I guess that's one possability.

But I'm pretty certain I would never cheat. I've had opportunities, and turned them away every time.

I was offered a no strings attached fling in the office by a hot 20-something. I said no. 

I had my buddy's wife come on to me and proposition me for "whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted it, however I wanted it, and nobody would ever know." I said no, and told him (he didn't believe me until he busted her with another friend 6 months later).

I was offered a no strings attached fling by a hot young professional while halfway around the world travelling for work. There was no way my wife could ever know. I said no.

I was offered a 3-some once with two hot babes that were friends of a friend. I said no.

Hell, I've never even cheated while dating exclusively. Was offered a 3-some then, too. And they were hot, and I wanted to. But the girl I was dating had feelings for me, so I didn't.

Hell, there was even one 3-some situation with my girlfriend at the time where my girlfriend passed out (we had been drinking), and the other girl still wanted to have sex with me. I said no, and walked her to the door.

None of these situations did I ask for or consciously initiate. But they happened. And I said no.

So I don't really worry about me cheating.


----------



## Rookie4

Wazza said:


> I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I think the thread benefited from your perspective,


I agree completely. I think that posters like Wanda and Zanne add a lot to the CWI forum, and reinforces the original point of this thread.


----------



## larry.gray

Locke.Stratos said:


> #1. A woman hits a man, he walks away. She had a role in that outcome, her behaviour (hitting him) led to him walking away.
> #2. A woman hits a man, he knocks her out. She had a role in that outcome too, her behaviour (hitting him) led to him knocking her out.


#2 is more acceptable to me. You didn't give option 1A that said he left her but also called the police and had her charged with domestic violence and she was forced into anger management. That one is even better than #2.

Women need to stop thinking that their gender is a license to utilize violence without consequence.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> We used to have another poster , who stated many times that he would, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES OF ANY KIND, ever cheat. I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now. I know of nobody, who is so God-like that they can predict with absolute certainty how they will react under extraordinary or unfamiliar circumstances.


That's YOUR opinion. Not mine. I have had my opportunities and still said no. Funny thing is when you allow yourself the possibility then eventually it becomes the opportunity.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> I find that very deflating. Some of the best stuff I've ever posted on TAM is in the dustbin that only moderators can see.
> 
> A couple of years back there was a poster here who wanted to vent and play Eeyore more than actually fix things. His situation reflected mine quite closely. I will say a heck of a lot of the issues in my marriage were my own, and I was the one who needed to change the most.
> 
> I was seeing right in his posts that his mindset and way of interacting were mirroring the way I behaved. I challenged him... respectfully but challenging nonetheless. Several more joined in saying the same thing. He responded by deleting the thread.
> 
> He's since been banned, come back several times and banned again. He may or may not be still around. Until his attitude and relationship style change, he's going to be whacking off to porn instead of enjoying intimacy with his wife.


There have been a number of threads that have been deleted, which I was interested in, but there are also a number of good posters who have been perma-banned, that I liked . Too bad, really.


----------



## Pluto2

marduk said:


> I agree anyone can fail. I don't think I would ever cheat.
> 
> Could aliens land and zap me with a mind ray to make me forget I'm married and cheat? I guess that's one possability.
> 
> But I'm pretty certain I would never cheat. I've had opportunities, and turned them away every time.
> 
> I was offered a no strings attached fling in the office by a hot 20-something. I said no.
> 
> I had my buddy's wife come on to me and proposition me for "whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted it, however I wanted it, and nobody would ever know." I said no, and told him (he didn't believe me until he busted her with another friend 6 months later).
> 
> I was offered a no strings attached fling by a hot young professional while halfway around the world travelling for work. There was no way my wife could ever know. I said no.
> 
> I was offered a 3-some once with two hot babes that were friends of a friend. I said no.
> 
> Hell, I've never even cheated while dating exclusively. Was offered a 3-some then, too. And they were hot, and I wanted to. But the girl I was dating had feelings for me, so I didn't.
> 
> Hell, there was even one 3-some situation with my girlfriend at the time where my girlfriend passed out (we had been drinking), and the other girl still wanted to have sex with me. I said no, and walked her to the door.
> 
> None of these situations did I ask for or consciously initiate. But they happened. And I said no.
> 
> So I don't really worry about me cheating.


Oh Marduk, you're showing off :x


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> That's YOUR opinion. Not mine. I have had my opportunities and still said no. Funny thing is when you allow yourself the possibility then eventually it becomes the opportunity.


I don't agree, I accept the possibility, and have had tons of opportunities, and it hasn't happened. Like Marduk, it would take such a rare set of circumstances, that I don't worry about it. But that is my opinion, nothing more.


----------



## Marduk

Pluto2 said:


> Oh Marduk, you're showing off :x


My point is that it's very possible for someone (even a horny man) to say no.

A couple of those even happened while my wife and I were fighting, and I thought we might divorce. 

So all this "it just happened" BS is to me just a lack of accountability. 

Cheating is a choice. Own it if you are going to make that choice.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> I agree anyone can fail. I don't think I would ever cheat.
> 
> Could aliens land and zap me with a mind ray to make me forget I'm married and cheat? I guess that's one possability.
> 
> But I'm pretty certain I would never cheat. I've had opportunities, and turned them away every time.
> 
> I was offered a no strings attached fling in the office by a hot 20-something. I said no.
> 
> I had my buddy's wife come on to me and proposition me for "whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted it, however I wanted it, and nobody would ever know." I said no, and told him (he didn't believe me until he busted her with another friend 6 months later).
> 
> I was offered a no strings attached fling by a hot young professional while halfway around the world travelling for work. There was no way my wife could ever know. I said no.
> 
> I was offered a 3-some once with two hot babes that were friends of a friend. I said no.
> 
> Hell, I've never even cheated while dating exclusively. Was offered a 3-some then, too. And they were hot, and I wanted to. But the girl I was dating had feelings for me, so I didn't.
> 
> Hell, there was even one 3-some situation with my girlfriend at the time where my girlfriend passed out (we had been drinking), and the other girl still wanted to have sex with me. I said no, and walked her to the door.
> 
> None of these situations did I ask for or consciously initiate. But they happened. And I said no.
> 
> So I don't really worry about me cheating.


Yet you'll still get people here telling you that "anyone is capable of cheating" or however they word it. Guys like you and I prove this to be totally untrue. I think the people who assert that nobody is impervious to cheating are projecting - they know _they_ are capable of it and may have done it or may do it - so they insist "well you would too in the right circumstances!!". It must be a hard pill to swallow. But the fact of the matter is, some people, _many_ people, have the morals, ethics, strength, respect for their spouse (or SO) and character, simply not to do so.

I resent being told that "under the right circumstances you would cheat". Speak for yourselves. Not for me, not for others.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Yet you'll still get people here telling you that "anyone is capable of cheating" or however they word it. Guys like you and I prove this to be totally untrue. I think the people who assert that nobody is impervious to cheating are projecting - they know _they_ are capable of it and may have done it or may do it - so they insist "well you would too in the right circumstances!!". It must be a hard pill to swallow. But the fact of the matter is, some people, _many_ people, have the morals, ethics, strength, respect for their spouse (or SO) and character, simply not to do so.
> 
> I resent being told that "under the right circumstances you would cheat". Speak for yourselves. Not for me, not for others.


Oh, I'm fully capable of it. I firmly wanted to **** some of these women until I couldn't see straight. 

I just chose not to, that's all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

Healer said:


> Yet you'll still get people here telling you that "anyone is capable of cheating" or however they word it. Guys like you and I prove this to be totally untrue. I think the people who assert that nobody is impervious to cheating are projecting - they know _they_ are capable of it and may have done it or may do it - so they insist "well you would too in the right circumstances!!". It must be a hard pill to swallow. But the fact of the matter is, some people, _many_ people, have the morals, ethics, strength, respect for their spouse (or SO) and character, simply not to do so.
> 
> I resent being told that "under the right circumstances you would cheat". Speak for yourselves. Not for me, not for others.


The fact is millions of people who have the opportunity don't cheat..that is a fact...it called having a conscience..


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I don't agree, I accept the possibility, and have had tons of opportunities, and it hasn't happened. Like Marduk, it would take such a *rare* set of circumstances, that I don't worry about it. But that is my opinion, nothing more.


Then why even bring it up? Sure the alien scenario may be the only way but even if you are saying that .01% Chance you would ever cheat then that's pretty much a take to the bank statement that you won't do it. I realize you like to argue but this is a stretch even for you.

Nothing just happens to us. Even my X wife's affair which started and ended in 4 months with our divorce had no singular event that caused it. It was repeated choice after choice of her establishing a connection with this guy at work, meeting with him, eventually screwing him. Anytime she could have gotten off that road but kept choosing to stay, push limits, take it further.

For people who feel they could be "tempted to cheat" you can also choose to do things that don't put you in the position of temptation. Maybe no OSF or guys/girls nights out or full and open passwords to Facebook, email, phone. Point being if you feel you are not strong enough to say no to temptation you can still place boundrys to prevent it, if you chose to do so.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Speak for yourself. I was tested, tested and tested again, and had the perfect set of circumstances to cheat. I didn't.
> 
> You can spout off that "anyone is capable of cheating" all you want. Doesn't make it true. You either cheat, or you don't. Clearly there are scores of people who had the opportunity, and an "excuse" to cheat, and wwent to their graves never having done so.
> 
> So, your argument fails.


Both sides can spout their arguments and it doesn't make either side true. The exchange of ideas is still worthwhile.

Clearly some cheat others don't. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

Everyone is tested, I agree. How do you quantify that you were tested as much as someone else? Can you even identify all the variables involved, let alone quantify them?


----------



## Wazza

Wolf1974 said:


> For people who feel they could be "tempted to cheat" you can also choose to do things that don't put you in the position of temptation. Maybe no OSF or guys/girls nights out or full and open passwords to Facebook, email, phone. Point being if you feel you are not strong enough to say no to temptation you can still place boundrys to prevent it, if you chose to do so.


Agree. With the caveat that not everyone knows this. I didn't until my wife's affair, for one.

It's an example of why someone who has cheated and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who just assumes it can't happen to them.


----------



## Rookie4

larry.gray said:


> #2 is more acceptable to me. You didn't give option 1A that said he left her but also called the police and had her charged with domestic violence and she was forced into anger management. That one is even better than #2.
> 
> Women need to stop thinking that their gender is a license to utilize violence without consequence.


Not as easy as you think. As you know, Larry, my ex wife had huge anger management issues. So what was I going to do about it? Have the mother of my children arrested? Not a particularly attractive idea. 
After we had been married a couple of years, we had an argument and she hit me on the shoulder with a broom handle. I took it away from her, broke it into a lot of little pieces, grabbed her by the back of her dress and made her pick up each little piece. Then picked her up and sat her on the counter and informed her that she was to never again attempt to get physical with either me or the kids. She never did, but she WAS physical with a lot of other people. She broke a pizza box over the head of the delivery guy, attacked another soccer mom at a game, and was arrested 2 or 3 times for assault.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> Not as easy as you think. As you know, Larry, my ex wife had huge anger management issues. So what was I going to do about it? Have the mother of my children arrested? Not a particularly attractive idea.
> After we had been married a couple of years, we had an argument and she hit me on the shoulder with a broom handle. I took it away from her, broke it into a lot of little pieces, grabbed her by the back of her dress and made her pick up each little piece. Then picked her up and sat her on the counter and informed her that she was to never again attempt to get physical with either me or the kids. She never did, but she WAS physical with a lot of other people. *She broke a pizza box over the head of the delivery guy, attacked another soccer mom at a game, and was arrested 2 or 3 times for assault*.



Wow...was she ever convicted?


----------



## Wazza

Pluto2 said:


> Circumstances and weakness explain why some people made the
> CHOICE to cheat, but does not remove the responsibility for their actions.


Exactly right. None of the arguments I am making about human frailty change the fact that cheating is wrong.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Then why even bring it up? Sure the alien scenario may be the only way but even if you are saying that .01% Chance you would ever cheat then that's pretty much a take to the bank statement that you won't do it. I realize you like to argue but this is a stretch even for you.
> 
> Nothing just happens to us. Even my X wife's affair which started and ended in 4 months with our divorce had no singular event that caused it. It was repeated choice after choice of her establishing a connection with this guy at work, meeting with him, eventually screwing him. Anytime she could have gotten off that road but kept choosing to stay, push limits, take it further.
> 
> For people who feel they could be "tempted to cheat" you can also choose to do things that don't put you in the position of temptation. Maybe no OSF or guys/girls nights out or full and open passwords to Facebook, email, phone. Point being if you feel you are not strong enough to say no to temptation you can still place boundrys to prevent it, if you chose to do so.


Because I don't believe in the "holier than thou" excuse that many BS's use as a whip to beat WS's with. I think the "walk a mile in my shoes" idea is a better plan.:smile2: I've never cheated, I don't think I will, I don't think you will either or Marduk or a LOT of other posters. All I'm saying is that the Moral High Ground is a very slippery slope, and shouldn't be used to judge those who didn't make it all the way to the top. My wife cheated and for years, I judged her based on this single act of infidelity. Then I wised up and began looking for reasons for her actions, and began to try to help her , instead of consigning her to the scrap heap.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> Agree. With the caveat that not everyone knows this. I didn't until my wife's affair, for one.
> 
> It's an example of why someone who has cheated and learned from it might be a *better risk than someone who just assumes it can't happen to them.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Wow Wazza,
> 
> I just honesty could not 100% disagree more with this statement. I have never cheated on anyone and neither has my Gf but we both have been cheated on. We both know the pain was caused us and agree that even if we were cheater types we wouldn't do this to another person let alone someone we made vows to. We both have no need to talk about the pain we went through, because we already know it.
> 
> The last people I will ever date are women who previously cheated. Mostly because of this same mindset I see here and in this thread particular over and over again which is " I cheated but with reason". That type or justification mentality I never want in my life again. Felt so strongly about this it was in my profile I wouldn't date cheaters and if I ever go back to being single again it will appear once more. This is a deal breaker to me.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Because I don't believe in the "perfect human" excuse that many BS's use as a whip to beat WS's with. I think the "walk a mile in my shoes" idea is a better plan.:smile2:


Again I disagree with this notion that it takes some Herculean effort to keep your **** out of someone and have an affair.

Of all the challenges in my life this has been one of the easier to maintain.

I think not getting on the wrong road is a better game plan but knock yourself out. :grin2:


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Don't you accuse me of "breaking my vows" or that I "divorced easily" - ****ing arrogant! I fought tooth and nail to save my marriage. She killed it dead. I did everything I could to forgive and make it work - it wasn't possible. You have a lot of nerve and you're talking out of your ass


I did not accuse you of breaking your vows. I'm sorry you took it that way. I don't know the details of your story, and I am talking about general concepts, not your specific circumstances.

What I said was, that, to some people, both cheating and divorcing are morally wrong. So the advice here is, if you can't be faithful divorce, and I agree with that, but I also see it as a virtue to do neither, ie to stay together and be faithful.

It's hard to know when to make the decision to leave. There will be people who walk away from a marriage they could have saved with more effort, and there will be people who don't, and end up cheating. It's easy to know when the cheating has occurred, not so easy to know if someone walked away too early.

But based on what you wrote, you didn't (just to be clear).


----------



## Rookie4

Truthseeker1 said:


> Wow...was she ever convicted?


Yes, twice. One misdemeanor and one felony. But she was so pretty that she got off lightly, both times.:grin2:


----------



## pidge70

"You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Marduk

Truthseeker1 said:


> The fact is millions of people who have the opportunity don't cheat..that is a fact...it called having a conscience..


It's not so much having a conscience for me. 

It's more akin to what "rei" and "makoto" mean in Japanese. 

Right action, honesty, sincerity. 

A lack of negligence.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

pidge70 said:


> "You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Anytime you can work a Trek reference in you get a like from me :smile2:


----------



## Rookie4

But, it cost me a boatload of money to keep her out of dodge.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> Yes, twice. One misdemeanor and one felony. But she was so pretty that she got off lightly, both times.:grin2:


Sh!t....some serious temper issues - she is lucky she never seriously injured anyone...did you ever fear for your kids safety? I know you said she never hurt them but was it a concern?


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Both sides can spout their arguments and it doesn't make either side true. The exchange of ideas is still worthwhile.
> 
> Clearly some cheat others don't. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
> 
> Everyone is tested, I agree. How do you quantify that you were tested as much as someone else? Can you even identify all the variables involved, let alone quantify them?


No, actually, it does make it true. It is an indisputable fact I never cheated, because I *chose* not to. This is not an opinion, this is not up for debate. It is a hard, solid fact. Same goes for marduk, and everyone else that never cheated. 

"How do you quantify that you were tested as much as someone else? " Lol. Seriously? Stop grasping at straws. I'll reiterate:

I was in an emotionally abusive relationship for 15 years, 13 of those married. She accused me of cheating the entire time we were together, and treated me as though I was a cheater. It was awful. Yelling, screaming, hitting, silent treatment, withholding sex, angry outbursts towards me, my friends, my family. Harassing me all day at work with these accusations so much so that I received disciplinary action and nearly lost my job. It was so awful I was on 100mg of Zoloft our entire relationship - the anxiety and stress was so great I couldn't function. She put us into $150K credit card debt and I had to remortgage the house 3 times to pay those off. Eventually she went into bankruptcy. 

I wasn't permitted to have friends or socialize with coworkers. I would come home from work immediately and if I was 2 minutes late, **** would hit the fan. Eventually she accused me of cheating _at_ work. I stopped making music, stopped performing to appease her.

then, she left after having several affairs - it was _she_ who was cheating the entire time. On my daughter's 5th birthday, via text, she ended the marriage. She was screwing coke dealing Hells' angels without protection while pretending to be at work - all the while using our visa to get cash advances for coke and booze for her AP(s). 

When I _was_ making music, I was on stage and approached countless times by hot women in the audience. I took work trips to different cities and had ample opportunity to cheat there. I was approached at work and had opportunity there.

When we eventually did decide to reconcile, I had many opportunities to have revenge affairs - she even GAVE ME PERMISSION to do so to "even the score". 

I NEVER CHEATED. Not once, even when she gave me permission. Because I *chose* not to.

Good enough? Does that "quantify" to your satisfaction?


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> Oh, I'm fully capable of it. I firmly wanted to **** some of these women until I couldn't see straight.
> 
> I just chose not to, that's all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, semantics. That's what I mean. I'm human - I lusted after women who propositioned me. But I *chose* not to have sex with them.

Doesn't matter what we say, you'll get people so caught up in their own shortcomings that they just can't accept that some people just choose not to cheat, no matter what the circumstances, no matter what the "test". Sad for them.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Agree. With the caveat that not everyone knows this. I didn't until my wife's affair, for one.
> 
> It's an example of why someone who has cheated and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who just assumes it can't happen to them.


You can't accept the fact that some people are just not cheaters and never would cheat because you need to in order to reconcile the fact that your wife cheated on you. You project to protect your wife and your own decisions in regards to her cheating. Don't speak for others or presume to know what others are or are not capable of.


----------



## Rookie4

​


Truthseeker1 said:


> Sh!t....some serious temper issues - she is lucky she never seriously injured anyone...did you ever fear for your kids safety? I know you said she never hurt them but was it a concern?


She isn't all that big of a woman, so she never actually did any damage to anybody. But I can think of 4 or 5 restaurants, our family Doctor, the local mall, and my daughter's Junior HS that she was barred from the premises.
After our little "come to Jesus" encounter, she never, ever offered any reason to think she would harm any of the family. She was like a female lion, protecting her cubs, Plus, most of her attacks were verbal, except the soccer mom fiasco. and a couple of others.


----------



## Wazza

Wolf1974 said:


> Wazza said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. With the caveat that not everyone knows this. I didn't until my wife's affair, for one.
> 
> It's an example of why someone who has cheated and learned from it might be a *better risk than someone who just assumes it can't happen to them.[*
> 
> 
> 
> Wow Wazza,
> 
> I just honesty could not 100% disagree more with this statement. I have never cheated on anyone and neither has my Gf but we both have been cheated on. We both know the pain was caused us and agree that even if we were cheater types we wouldn't do this to another person let alone someone we made vows to. We both have no need to talk about the pain we went through, because we already know it.
> 
> The last people I will ever date are women who previously cheated. Mostly because of this same mindset I see here and in this thread particular over and over again which is " I cheated but with reason". That type or justification mentality I never want in my life again. Felt so strongly about this it was in my profile I wouldn't date cheaters and if I ever go back to being single again it will appear once more. This is a deal breaker to me.
Click to expand...

I don't think we are not as far apart as you think.

Cheating is wrong, just wrong. No ifs, no buts. I think we agree on that.

If someone considers that circumstances justify cheating (or make it right, or acceptable) I disagree with them, and it would be a dealbreaker to me. Which I think is what you said.

Someone who has cheated once, admits they were wrong, and has learned from it (ie can explain what happened, but still owns that it was wrong) is to me different from someone who tries to justify.

Ultimately there are no guarantees. All we can do is exchange ideas and hope we are helping each other.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> ​She isn't all that big of a woman, so she never actually did any damage to anybody. But I can think of 4 or 5 restaurants, our family Doctor, the local mall, and my daughter's Junior HS that she was barred from the premises.
> After our little "come to Jesus" encounter, she never, ever offered any reason to think she would harm any of the family. She was like a female lion, protecting her cubs, *Plus, most of her attacks were verbal, except the soccer mom fiasco. and a couple of others.*


Except the stuff she got convicted for...>


----------



## Pluto2

Wazza said:


> I don't think we are not as far apart as you think.
> 
> Cheating is wrong, just wrong. No ifs, no buts. I think we agree on that.
> 
> If someone considers that circumstances justify cheating (or make it right, or acceptable) I disagree with them, and it would be a dealbreaker to me. Which I think is what you said.
> 
> Someone who has cheated once, admits they were wrong, and has learned from it (ie can explain what happened, but still owns that it was wrong) is to me different from someone who tries to justify.
> 
> Ultimately there are no guarantees. All we can do is exchange ideas and hope we are helping each other.


Having been married to a serial cheater I can say that in any future relationship I ever choose to have, I will never become involved with anyone who ever cheated, be it EA or PA. That is my choice and I accept the consequences.


----------



## Rookie4

Actually , there were times when her anger was useful. I never had to worry about some boy hitting on one of my daughters. No teenage guy , in his right mind, would have touched my girls even when I was away on business.. LOL 

Sorry everybody, for the off topic. Larry's post got me to remembering some sh*t.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Rookie4 said:


> Actually , there were times when her anger was useful. I never had to worry about some boy hitting on one of my daughters. No teenage guy , in his right mind, would have touched my girls even when I was away on business.. LOL
> 
> Sorry everybody, for the off topic. Larry's post got me to remembering some sh*t.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> *You can't accept the fact that some people are just not cheaters and never would cheat *because you need to in order to reconcile the fact that your wife cheated on you. You project to protect your wife and your own decisions in regards to her cheating. *Don't speak for others or presume to know what others are or are not capable of*.


Do you recognise the irony of having those two bolded sentences in the same post?

Maybe I have come up with a world view that lets me live with what my wife did and the way it played out, but maybe you have too. Maybe we are both projecting.

As for the "fact" that some people are just not cheaters...you have asserted it but not proven it. The word hubris exists because the behaviour it describes exists. All any of us can say for sure is that we haven't cheated yet.


----------



## Marduk

Wazza said:


> Do you recognise the irony of having those two bolded sentences in the same post?
> 
> Maybe I have come up with a world view that lets me live with what my wife did and the way it played out, but maybe you have too. Maybe we are both projecting.
> 
> As for the "fact" that some people are just not cheaters...you have asserted it but not proven it. The word hubris exists because the behaviour it describes exists. All any of us can say for sure is that we haven't cheated yet.


That is flawed logic. It's colloquially called the "no true scotsman" fallacy.

By this reasoning, all I can say is that I am not yet a mass murderer, haven't yet solved P=NP, and haven't yet transubstantiated from the earthly plane.

Sure, on one level, it's _kinda_ true. But since the set of things I haven't done yet is infinite, and the set of things I will never actually do is finite, the statement is irrelevant.


----------



## 2asdf2

Wazza said:


> Do you recognise the irony of having those two bolded sentences in the same post?
> 
> Maybe I have come up with a world view that lets me live with what my wife did and the way it played out, but maybe you have too. Maybe we are both projecting.
> 
> As for the "fact" that some people are just not cheaters...you have asserted it but not proven it. The word hubris exists because the behaviour it describes exists. All any of us can say for sure is that we haven't cheated* yet.*


Yet?

Are you forecasting?


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Do you recognise the irony of having those two bolded sentences in the same post?


Aggravating, isn't it?




Wazza said:


> As for the "fact" that some people are just not cheaters...you have asserted it but not proven it. The word hubris exists because the behaviour it describes exists. All any of us can say for sure is that we haven't cheated yet.


Keep telling yourself that man. Whatever makes it possible for you to stay with your ww. Meanwhile, I'll keep on not being a cheater, and rest easy knowing that in the 15 years I was with my exww, no matter what came at me, I didn't.

Perhaps you keep insisting everyone has or will cheated at some point because you have or plan to? You're afraid you will? That's too bad. I hope you turn out to be one of the strong ones who *chooses* not to.

And as far as "proving" some people are just not cheaters - you claiming that it hasn't been proven is you "asserting" that every dead person who was ever in a relationship cheated. But I think you know that's not true. You KNOW there are people who were married, went their entire lives without cheating, and who are now dead, and so, will never cheat.

So in other words - it HAS been proven.


----------



## Healer

2asdf2 said:


> Yet?
> 
> Are you forecasting?


I think he's forecasting his own behavior, or that of his wife. If he's forecasting for the rest of mankind, I think he might have a bit of a God complex goin' on.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Do you recognise the irony of having those two bolded sentences in the same post?


Also - I'm not speaking for you. You have made it abundantly clear that you don't buy that there are "cheaters" and "non-cheaters". So, it's not ironic at all. I was just restating what you have already asserted.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> We used to have another poster , who stated many times that he would, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES OF ANY KIND, ever cheat. I didn't believe it then, I don't believe it now. I know of nobody, who is so God-like that they can predict with absolute certainty how they will react under extraordinary or unfamiliar circumstances.


I agree to a point. I think to some, a very few, cheating is so abhorrent that it is something they just cannot do. This doesn't make them god-like. It just emphasizes one particular characteristic they possess. They could still be an a-hole in every other way.


----------



## Healer

bfree said:


> I agree to a point. I think to some, a very few, cheating is so abhorrent that it is something they just cannot do. This doesn't make them god-like. It just emphasizes one particular characteristic they possess. They could still be an a-hole in every other way.


I'll agree except the "very few" part. There are way more than "very few" who posses the character not to cheat.


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> That is flawed logic. It's colloquially called the "no true scotsman" fallacy.
> 
> By this reasoning, all I can say is that I am not yet a mass murderer, haven't yet solved P=NP, and haven't yet transubstantiated from the earthly plane.
> 
> Sure, on one level, it's _kinda_ true. But since the set of things I haven't done yet is infinite, and the set of things I will never actually do is finite, the statement is irrelevant.


Exactly. By this flawed logic, wazza can't prove he's not a pedophile, or a Satanist, or a Nickelback fan. It doesn't wash.


----------



## Marduk

Healer said:


> Exactly. By this flawed logic, wazza can't prove he's not a pedophile, or a Satanist, or a Nickelback fan. It doesn't wash.


You take that back. 

Nobody is a nickelback fan. 

Give him some credit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

marduk said:


> You take that back.
> 
> Nobody is a nickelback fan.
> 
> Give him some credit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right, that was just mean. I'm sorry.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> I don't think we are not as far apart as you think.
> 
> Cheating is wrong, just wrong. No ifs, no buts. I think we agree on that.
> 
> If someone considers that circumstances justify cheating (or make it right, or acceptable) I disagree with them, and it would be a dealbreaker to me. Which I think is what you said.
> 
> *Someone who has cheated once, admits they were wrong, and has learned from it (ie can explain what happened, but still owns that it was wrong) is to me different from someone who tries to justify.*
> 
> Ultimately there are no guarantees. All we can do is exchange ideas and hope we are helping each other.


This is ultimately where our experiences differ. My x was a cheater and claimed all these things and that she never would do to me what she did to her x husband. But she did and justified the whole way. I know stereotypes aren't always true but once a cheater always a cheater is close enough on the mark as I have seen any stereotype. Small Exceptions to the rule
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Healer said:


> Exactly. By this flawed logic, wazza can't prove he's not a pedophile, or a Satanist, *or a Nickelback fan*. It doesn't wash.


I almost choked on my Cherry Coke Zero when I read this.

F*cker.


----------



## Wazza

marduk said:


> That is flawed logic. It's colloquially called the "no true scotsman" fallacy.
> 
> By this reasoning, all I can say is that I am not yet a mass murderer, haven't yet solved P=NP, and haven't yet transubstantiated from the earthly plane.
> 
> Sure, on one level, it's _kinda_ true. But since the set of things I haven't done yet is infinite, and the set of things I will never actually do is finite, the statement is irrelevant.


Not irrelevant. Once you concede the possibility, you get down to a discussion of how likely something is, and the factors that increase or decrease the likelihood. That's a discussion you can't start with someone who insists it isn't a possibility.


----------



## Healer

GusPolinski said:


> I almost choked on my Cherry Coke Zero when I read this.
> 
> F*cker.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Not irrelevant. Once you concede the possibility, you get down to a discussion of how likely something is, and the factors that increase or decrease the likelihood. That's a discussion you can't start with someone who insists it isn't a possibility.


So it's possible you're going to be the next gunman that murders a school full of children? It's not _likely_, but it's "possible"?

You haven't done it _yet_, but you might.


----------



## Wazza

2asdf2 said:


> Yet?
> 
> Are you forecasting?


Lol.

Given a large enough cohort, then I think it likely includes some people who thought they were above cheating then cheated, or think they are above cheating but will cheat. 

I don't have the data to begin to quantify it. But I'll bet most of us can think of an occasion when we didn't live up to our values and standards, but instead gave in to temptation. 

You can decide whether its a forecast.


----------



## Marduk

Wazza said:


> Not irrelevant. Once you concede the possibility, you get down to a discussion of how likely something is, and the factors that increase or decrease the likelihood. That's a discussion you can't start with someone who insists it isn't a possibility.


Well, again, to be honest...

If a person hasn't don't something 99 times in a row, it's pretty improbable that they will do it the 100th time. 

There's the existential possibility, and yet a vanishingly small real world probability that might as well be impossible. 

It's possible that I can guess google's 256 bit AES key just by randomly typing in stuff, it's just such a low probability that it realistically is zero. 

2+2 != 5 for some values of 2.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Wazza said:


> Not irrelevant. Once you concede the possibility, you get down to a discussion of how likely something is, and the factors that increase or decrease the likelihood. That's a discussion you can't start with someone who insists it isn't a possibility.


No it isn't.
This conversation can be just as relevant for people who will never cheat if for no other reason than to help them identify traits to watch out for in the future with other partners. Nothing says you only discuss this to stop yourself.

And I'm not suggesting you can ever affair-proof a relationship-that's just wishful thinking. I'm talking about selecting and allowing people to remain part of your life.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Lol.
> 
> Given a large enough cohort, then I think it likely includes some people who thought they were above cheating then cheated, or think they are above cheating but will cheat.
> 
> I don't have the data to begin to quantify it. But I'll bet most of us can think of an occasion when we didn't live up to our values and standards, but instead gave in to temptation.
> 
> You can decide whether its a forecast.


Again - speak for yourself. You presuming what other people will do is arrogant. Perhaps _you_ will cheat, or have cheated. I never did, and won't. I stuck to the agreement I had with my exww - divorce, don't cheat. I did just that, even after being given permission to cheat.

You're projecting your wife's behavior and your potential behavior onto others. You're fooling yourself, but not me.


----------



## Healer

Cheating is the behavior of someone with low character. There are people with high character. Ergo, there are people who don't cheat, and there are people who will never cheat.

I know that's hard for cheaters, or people who fear they may cheat, to hear. But that doesn't mean it's not true.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> So it's possible you're going to be the next gunman that murders a school full of children? It's not _likely_, but it's "possible"?
> 
> You haven't done it _yet_, but you might.


Yes. 

But the M in TAM stands for Marriage, not Murder, and I daresay infidelity is a far more common failing than mass shooting. I own a penis, which I greatly enjoy using. I have never owned a gun, and get no pleasure from the thought of using one. We can discuss the likelihood that I will kill if you think it matters, but I don't.

Look, I'm not trying to convince you that you will cheat. You haven't yet. Well done. You believe strongly it is wrong, good for you. 

I have talked about why people cheat because it leads to discussion of whether they can be helped. I believe some can. There are others on this board who believe they are just defective. Those of us who want to help them would like to be able to have a civil discussion on TAM, not have waywards driven away, which occurs to frequently in my opinion.


----------



## Wazza

Wolf1974 said:


> This is ultimately where our experiences differ. My x was a cheater and claimed all these things and that she never would do to me what she did to her x husband. But she did and justified the whole way. I know stereotypes aren't always true but once a cheater always a cheater is close enough on the mark as I have seen any stereotype. Small Exceptions to the rule
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cheated once, then did it again. Changes her category in what I said.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Cheating is the behavior of someone with low character. There are people with high character. Ergo, there are people who don't cheat, and there are people who will never cheat.
> 
> I know that's hard for cheaters, or people who fear they may cheat, to hear. But that doesn't mean it's not true.


I guess it depends if you see character as binary high/low, or a continuum. 

I agree with you that cheating is a character failing. Maybe I just grade it differently, and I hope that talking about it can help people change the odds in favour of fidelity.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Again - speak for yourself. You presuming what other people will do is arrogant. Perhaps _you_ will cheat, or have cheated. I never did, and won't. I stuck to the agreement I had with my exww - divorce, don't cheat. I did just that, even after being given permission to cheat.
> 
> You're projecting your wife's behavior and your potential behavior onto others. You're fooling yourself, but not me.


Projection? In this case absolutely not. 

I am old, and I have seen a lot of infidelity, not just what happened in my own marriage. And I have seen more than one person claim they would never cheat, then cheat. Therefore my statement was of observed fact.


----------



## Wazza

marduk said:


> Well, again, to be honest...
> 
> If a person hasn't don't something 99 times in a row, it's pretty improbable that they will do it the 100th time.
> 
> There's the existential possibility, and yet a vanishingly small real world probability that might as well be impossible.
> 
> It's possible that I can guess google's 256 bit AES key just by randomly typing in stuff, it's just such a low probability that it realistically is zero.
> 
> 2+2 != 5 for some values of 2.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your statistical model needs to be somewhat more comprehensive before it merits dicussion 

Now excuse me, I have a Nickleback CD to put on!!


----------



## Healer

Healer said:


> So it's possible you're going to be the next gunman that murders a school full of children? It's not _likely_, but it's "possible"?
> 
> You haven't done it _yet_, but you might.





Wazza said:


> Yes.


Wow. You need help then. Seriously - that's really frightening. Very concerning.

See, I know for a fact that I would never do that. The fact you just admitted you might - I'd be careful admitting to something like that.


----------



## Marduk

Wazza said:


> Your statistical model needs to be somewhat more comprehensive before it merits dicussion
> 
> Now excuse me, I have a Nickleback CD to put on!!


Please for the love of all that is holy and good in the world...

Play safe. Use headphones. Secondhand Nickelback is almost as dangerous as direct exposure.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Projection? In this case absolutely not.
> 
> I am old, and I have seen a lot of infidelity, not just what happened in my own marriage. And I have seen more than one person claim they would never cheat, then cheat. Therefore my statement was of observed fact.





Wazza said:


> As for the "fact" that some people are just not cheaters...you have asserted it but not proven it. The word hubris exists because the behaviour it describes exists. All any of us can say for sure is that we haven't cheated yet.





Healer said:


> And as far as "proving" some people are just not cheaters - you claiming that it hasn't been proven is you "asserting" that every dead person who was ever in a relationship cheated. But I think you know that's not true. You KNOW there are people who were married, went their entire lives without cheating, and who are now dead, and so, will never cheat.
> 
> So in other words - it HAS been proven.


You didn't address this.

And you still presume to tell me that you know what my actions may or may not be better than I do. Where does your arrogance come from?


----------



## Healer

I still can't get over the fact wazza said "yes" when I asked him if he might be the next school shooter. Seriously, that has me right freaked out. Did you say that to try and prove your point or were you serious?


----------



## pidge70

This thread is so pointless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> And as far as "proving" some people are just not cheaters - *you claiming that it hasn't been proven is you "asserting" that every dead person who was ever in a relationship cheated*. But I think you know that's not true. You KNOW there are people who were married, went their entire lives without cheating, and who are now dead, and so, will never cheat.
> 
> So in other words - it HAS been proven.


Sigh, you propose something I never said and don't agree with (the bold bit). That says nothing about my point. That's why I ignored it. But since you asked....

Seriously Healer.....of course there are people who were faithful throughout their lives and died pure. Just like there are people who smoked like a chimney and didn't die of lung cancer. Would you argue that because that happened you can smoke without risk to your health? Of course not. The outcome is determined by a complex mix of factors that is not completely understood. But you can certainly reduce the risk by recognising the possibility and avoiding risk factors. Just like you can take action to avoid infidelity, like boundaries with opposite sex relationships for example.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> I still can't get over the fact wazza said "yes" when I asked him if he might be the next school shooter. Seriously, that has me right freaked out. Did you say that to try and prove your point or were you serious?


This is silly. If you are worried, PM me and I will set your mind at ease. Meantime, I think we've said all we need to say. We disagree. Peace.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> Cheated once, then did it again. Changes her category in what I said.


How so you said cheated and learned from her experience. That's what she told me


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> I agree to a point. I think to some, a very few, cheating is so abhorrent that it is something they just cannot do. This doesn't make them god-like. It just emphasizes one particular characteristic they possess. They could still be an a-hole in every other way.


 Bfree, It's your opinion, and I respect it. It's posters who use this righteousness as a scourge that I have a problem with.


----------



## Rookie4

marduk said:


> Well, again, to be honest...
> 
> If a person hasn't don't something 99 times in a row, it's pretty improbable that they will do it the 100th time.
> 
> There's the existential possibility, and yet a vanishingly small real world probability that might as well be impossible.
> 
> It's possible that I can guess google's 256 bit AES key just by randomly typing in stuff, it's just such a low probability that it realistically is zero.
> 
> 2+2 != 5 for some values of 2.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is absolutely true........until it isn't. I once bet my neighbor that I could make 30 straight baskets from 10 feet. I actually made 54.....then I missed. Past history is an indicator of future behavior, but it is NOT a guarantor.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> This is absolutely true........until it isn't. I once bet my neighbor that I could make 30 straight baskets from 10 feet. I actually made 54.....then I missed. Past history is an indicator of future behavior, but it is NOT a guarantor.


Aside from discipline and skill, there's not much in terms of "behavior" that goes into making a shot from the top of the key.


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Aside from discipline and skill, there's not much in terms of "behavior" that goes into making a shot from the top of the key.


Oh yeah? Discipline isn't behavior? Since when.


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Oh yeah? Discipline isn't behavior? Since when.


Here's my point...

Cheating is a choice. Every time.

The discipline require to hone a skill would seem to be quite different than the discipline required to NOT cheat.

You can't simply _choose_ to make a basket every time you throw the ball and have it happen. There are simply too many variables in play.


----------



## Zanne

You know what? Why would anyone stick around here? You are what you are, "a cheater," and there is no hope to redeem yourself. All you are here is a label. Either you are a BS or a WS. Good or bad. That's the message people get when they come here.

I know that I have issues in the emotional department, but I'm not stupid. I see people are hurting here and so I understand when they call me names. Heck, they're still insulting me in my own thread. I try to pick through the good and bad. I still want to grow as a person, because I actually believe people can change.

I guess that means I'm a patient person, because I've made it nearly three years, most of that time dodging insults left and right. How many newcomers are going to last that long? I think you know the answer.

If all you hear are that you are a label and nothing more, why bother. No need to stick around. What on earth is worth staying here for??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> You know what? Why would anyone stick around here? You are what you are, "a cheater," and there is no hope to redeem yourself. All you are here is a label. Either you are a BS or a WS. Good or bad. That's the message people get when they come here.
> 
> I know that I have issues in the emotional department, but I'm not stupid. I see people are hurting here and so I understand when they call me names. Heck, they're still insulting me in my own thread. I try to pick through the good and bad. I still want to grow as a person, because I actually believe people can change.
> 
> I guess that means I'm a patient person, because I've made it nearly three years, most of that time dodging insults left and right. How many newcomers are going to last that long? I think you know the answer.
> 
> If all you hear are that you are a label and nothing more, why bother. No need to stick around. What on earth is worth staying here for??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hopefully to realize what your doing wrong and to stop. Easy to have a righteous attitude when concealing things from your husband. It's always encouraged here to take responsibility for your actions.


----------



## Zanne

Wolf1974 said:


> Hopefully to realize what your doing wrong and to stop. Easy to have a righteous attitude when concealing things from your husband. It's always encouraged here to take responsibility for your actions.


I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.

My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.
> 
> My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I don't agree completely . You have managed to stay, and it's probably, in part, because there are enough good posters who AREN'T a part of the mob. I've been attacked quite a lot, and I'm still trying. I guess that if enough open minded and hearted people keep trying, then TAM will survive, in spite of the haters and condemners.


----------



## Wazza

Wolf1974 said:


> How so you said cheated and learned from her experience. That's what she told me


I'm sorry that happened to you. 

Some people who cheat once will go on to cheat again. No question. If there is a way to be sure your significant other will not cheat, I don't know it.

In your shoes I would have looked at how her affair happened and what she had learned from it, and I would have proceeded with caution, but it could still have all gone bad.

"I did it but I won't again" would not be enough for me.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Bfree, It's your opinion, and I respect it. It's posters who use this righteousness as a scourge that I have a problem with.


After my divorce many years ago I sank into a very dark place. I abused drugs, I abused alcohol, I routinely got into fights, got arrested a few times as well. I stole (well "borrowed" with no intention of repaying which is still stealing) from friends and relatives. I also bedded as many women as I could. And there were a lot. I guess my c0cky, nonchalant attitude was somehow attractive to women. But I didn't do it because I cared. I didn't even do it for the sex. I did it out of hate. As I later learned in therapy I was simultaneously trying to reclaim my manhood and proving in my own mind that all women were nothing more than weak minded skanks. Basically I was a despicable human being. And now you know the basis behind my avatar. But one thing I did not, could not do was have sex with a married woman. And believe me I had lots of opportunities. Frankly they were easier to "pick up" than single women. But I just couldn't do it. Even in my alcohol soaked drug saturated brain all I could see was a man that would be in extreme pain if he found out. I just couldn't be the cause of that anguish. So I had one hard and fast rule despite all my other disgusting behavior. No married women. This is why I believe it is possible for someone to never commit adultery. Not that they can't but that the thought is so abhorrent to them that they consistently make the choice not to.


----------



## bfree

Zanne said:


> You know what? Why would anyone stick around here? You are what you are, "a cheater," and there is no hope to redeem yourself. All you are here is a label. Either you are a BS or a WS. Good or bad. That's the message people get when they come here.
> 
> I know that I have issues in the emotional department, but I'm not stupid. I see people are hurting here and so I understand when they call me names. Heck, they're still insulting me in my own thread. I try to pick through the good and bad. I still want to grow as a person, because I actually believe people can change.
> 
> I guess that means I'm a patient person, because I've made it nearly three years, most of that time dodging insults left and right. How many newcomers are going to last that long? I think you know the answer.
> 
> If all you hear are that you are a label and nothing more, why bother. No need to stick around. What on earth is worth staying here for??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think of EI as a cheater. I don't think of changingme as one either. To me a "cheater" is someone who refuses to take ownership of their behavior. Someone who refuses to change their destructive path. Someone who hurts others and shows no remorse. That's a cheater in my mind and it's a label that is earned and maintained by the one that bears it.


----------



## bfree

Zanne said:


> I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.
> 
> My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When I acted like a [email protected] I was, in fact, a [email protected] When someone called me a [email protected] it stung. Why? Because it was true. Now when someone calls me a [email protected] it doesn't bother me. I am no longer that person. I took ownership of my poor behavior and changed it. I made reparations where I could. I reformed. If someone calling you a cheater bothers you maybe you should take a minute and think why that is.


----------



## Wolf1974

Zanne said:


> I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.
> 
> My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well if these updates are true I'm glad and I was unaware. I hope he can find happiness.

Actually the point you make and I see it aren't all that far off. The CWI section has more threads and views really than any other section. Many people come here, myself included, seeking help and information. Far more read than post and I was once that way as well. So BS can find out they aren't alone and aren't at fault for an affair without a single post. A WS can find out they aren't alone and need to take accountability without a single post. I think tam is wonderful for that

And sorry that it tears you up that you don't like being labeled a cheater but you did give yourself that title by YOUR actions not us


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> I'm sorry that happened to you.
> 
> Some people who cheat once will go on to cheat again. No question. If there is a way to be sure your significant other will not cheat, I don't know it.
> 
> In your shoes I would have looked at how her affair happened and what she had learned from it, and I would have proceeded with caution, but it could still have all gone bad.
> 
> "I did it but I won't again" would not be enough for me.


Clearly more was to it than that. I was simplifying to avoid a thread Jack. I knew why she cheated and believed what she told me about her X husband. They were all lies because :surprise: cheaters lie and I fell for it. Her affair had nothing to do with me or our relationship. It had to do with her and her past realtionship with her father (bio) and her hatred of men. Unfortunate that I was part of the shrapnel of that and had I need a wiser man at 22 I would have avoided her and the bus load of baggage that came with her. But I didn't so now I have to live with that.

There was a another thread here not long about about how many d days spouses went through. Most had it more than once. Little in absolutes in life but you certainly can stack the deck on not getting cheated on by picking someone who doesn't have it in thier past in my opinion. Not everyone will agree and ok...you date them then cause I'm not interested in the increased chance. This is also why reconciliation would never work for me.


----------



## karole

Zanne said:


> I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.
> 
> My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, you aren't concealing anything from your husband, but you and your OM are still concealing against his wife - last I heard, he's still married and she has no idea he's been in an affair with you for the last several years.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Yes.
> 
> But the M in TAM stands for Marriage, not Murder, and I daresay infidelity is a far more common failing than mass shooting. I own a penis, which I greatly enjoy using. I have never owned a gun, and get no pleasure from the thought of using one. We can discuss the likelihood that I will kill if you think it matters, but I don't.
> 
> Look, I'm not trying to convince you that you will cheat. You haven't yet. Well done. You believe strongly it is wrong, good for you.
> 
> I have talked about why people cheat because it leads to discussion of whether they can be helped. I believe some can. There are others on this board who believe they are just defective. Those of us who want to help them would like to be able to have a civil discussion on TAM, not have waywards driven away, which occurs to frequently in my opinion.





Rookie4 said:


> This is absolutely true........until it isn't. I once bet my neighbor that I could make 30 straight baskets from 10 feet. I actually made 54.....then I missed. Past history is an indicator of future behavior, but it is NOT a guarantor.


_That's_ your analogy?


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> You know what? Why would anyone stick around here? You are what you are, "a cheater," and there is no hope to redeem yourself. All you are here is a label. Either you are a BS or a WS. Good or bad. That's the message people get when they come here.
> 
> I know that I have issues in the emotional department, but I'm not stupid. I see people are hurting here and so I understand when they call me names. Heck, they're still insulting me in my own thread. I try to pick through the good and bad. I still want to grow as a person, because I actually believe people can change.
> 
> I guess that means I'm a patient person, because I've made it nearly three years, most of that time dodging insults left and right. How many newcomers are going to last that long? I think you know the answer.
> 
> If all you hear are that you are a label and nothing more, why bother. No need to stick around. What on earth is worth staying here for??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Talk about "black and white". Again - totally untrue. I see WS that come here contrite, remorseful and wanting to change _for the better_ treated well, and people trying to help them.

If you come on here and you're actively cheating (or having an affair with a married person), you'll probably be criticized. And for good reason.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> I'm not concealing anything from my husband. We are divorcing. He lives with his girlfriend and I live with my boyfriend. He has my address. He knows everything about the affair. Nothing to hide there.
> 
> My point is, why do we need the labels here? How do they define us as a person? There are several people here who will never look past that label. So why bother? If someone stumbles onto TAM, seeking help or clarity about their situation, and then they see they will be walking into a lynch mob of sorts, do you think they are going to stick around? For what? Even if they follow everyone's advice, they will be treated as second class citizens here. You know, once a cheater always a cheater. I bet many don't even bother to post. There are more lurkers here than posters and for good reason.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you having an affair with a married man?


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I don't agree completely . You have managed to stay, and it's probably, in part, because there are enough good posters who AREN'T a part of the mob. I've been attacked quite a lot, and I'm still trying. I guess that if enough open minded and hearted people keep trying, then TAM will survive, in spite of the haters and condemners.


You've been "attacked" because of your attacks on BS. You know, the ones you deny but then have shown directly to you, and then ignore. Talk about self righteous.


----------



## Marduk

Rookie4 said:


> This is absolutely true........until it isn't. I once bet my neighbor that I could make 30 straight baskets from 10 feet. I actually made 54.....then I missed. Past history is an indicator of future behavior, but it is NOT a guarantor.


One could say that through QM it js theoretically possible for me pass through a solid object unharmed. 

But if I threw myself at a brick wall once a second for the lifetime of the universe, it still probably wouldn't happen. 

There's the existential possibility, and there's the real world possibility. 

Angels on the head of a pin, and all that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

karole said:


> No, you aren't concealing anything from your husband, but you and your OM are still concealing against his wife - last I heard, he's still married and she has no idea he's been in an affair with you for the last several years.


Yeah, if that is in fact the case - then just WOW.


----------



## karole

Healer said:


> Yeah, if that is in fact the case - then just WOW.


Read her thread in the private section Healer - I'm sorry to say it's true - unless her OM suddenly got a conscience when he and Zanne moved in together recently and decided to tell his wife, but I seriously doubt that.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> After my divorce many years ago I sank into a very dark place. I abused drugs, I abused alcohol, I routinely got into fights, got arrested a few times as well. I stole (well "borrowed" with no intention of repaying which is still stealing) from friends and relatives. I also bedded as many women as I could. And there were a lot. I guess my c0cky, nonchalant attitude was somehow attractive to women. But I didn't do it because I cared. I didn't even do it for the sex. I did it out of hate. As I later learned in therapy I was simultaneously trying to reclaim my manhood and proving in my own mind that all women were nothing more than weak minded skanks. Basically I was a despicable human being. And now you know the basis behind my avatar. But one thing I did not, could not do was have sex with a married woman. And believe me I had lots of opportunities. Frankly they were easier to "pick up" than single women. But I just couldn't do it. Even in my alcohol soaked drug saturated brain all I could see was a man that would be in extreme pain if he found out. I just couldn't be the cause of that anguish. So I had one hard and fast rule despite all my other disgusting behavior. No married women. This is why I believe it is possible for someone to never commit adultery. Not that they can't but that the thought is so abhorrent to them that they consistently make the choice not to.


Look, Bfree, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sorry you for your troubles. Lots of posters feel as you do. But it isn't the issue that I started this thread to address. My purpose was to get ideas about how we all can make TAM a safer place and thus get more WS participation, and why it is important to do so.


----------



## Rookie4

marduk said:


> One could say that through QM it js theoretically possible for me pass through a solid object unharmed.
> 
> But if I threw myself at a brick wall once a second for the lifetime of the universe, it still probably wouldn't happen.
> 
> There's the existential possibility, and there's the real world possibility.
> 
> Angels on the head of a pin, and all that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK. Perhaps we could use a thread about this question.


----------



## Healer

Basically what you have here are WS and BS who have reconciled with their WS (and rookie) who insist that BS are in some way responsible, or "play a role", or however many different ways it's been phrased, for the cheating, and that there is no such thing as people who don't cheat - we just haven't cheated _yet_.

If you think about it, it's actually rather amusing. Galling, but amusing.

And not surprising. On the WS side - of course they want to take some of the heat off of themselves (the ones who actually blame shift, that is - I know that's not all of them). 

On the BS who have reconciled side - not surprising either. They are basically defending their WS and trying to take some of the heat off of them.

Regarding their assertion that there's no such thing as people who cheat and people who don't - just people who haven't cheated _yet_ - again, not surprising. Same reasons as above. It dilutes the atrocity of cheating and spreads it around. 

I get it. I don't believe any of it, but I get the why...the thinking behind it.


----------



## Zanne

bfree said:


> When I acted like a [email protected] I was, in fact, a [email protected] When someone called me a [email protected] it stung. Why? Because it was true. Now when someone calls me a [email protected] it doesn't bother me. I am no longer that person. I took ownership of my poor behavior and changed it. I made reparations where I could. I reformed. If someone calling you a cheater bothers you maybe you should take a minute and think why that is.


I don't care if someone is calling me out on my behavior and if I was new here and I had been lurking for awhile before posting, I would also expect the same response. However, I may also decide to never dip my toes in the water here after seeing this general climate of bitterness towards people who have cheated. I've read many posts over the years from people who say they will never post in CWI for that reason. I believe that's what Rookie was talking about in his first post. If this forum is going to have an "us" against "them" mentality, how is anyone being helped?


----------



## Rookie4

I would suggest that those posters who have questions about Zanne and her situation, go to her thread and find out. I would like to get back on topic, if possible. We (myself included) are getting pretty far off the beaten path.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> I don't care if someone is calling me out on my behavior


Clearly. So why are you here?


----------



## Healer

karole said:


> Read her thread in the private section Healer - I'm sorry to say it's true - unless her OM suddenly got a conscience when he and Zanne moved in together recently and decided to tell his wife, but I seriously doubt that.


Don't think I can stomach that.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> This is silly. If you are worried, PM me and I will set your mind at ease. Meantime, I think we've said all we need to say. We disagree. Peace.


Saying what you did to try and prove your point was reckless and way over the top.


----------



## Zanne

Healer said:


> Basically what you have here are WS and BS who have reconciled with their WS (and rookie) who insist that BS are in some way responsible, or "play a role", or however many different ways it's been phrased, for the cheating, and that there is no such thing as people who don't cheat - we just haven't cheated _yet_.
> 
> If you think about it, it's actually rather amusing. Galling, but amusing.
> 
> And not surprising. On the WS side - of course they want to take some of the heat off of themselves (the ones who actually blame shift, that is - I know that's not all of them).
> 
> On the BS who have reconciled side - not surprising either. They are basically defending their WS and trying to take some of the heat off of them.
> 
> Regarding their assertion that there's no such thing as people who cheat and people who don't - just people who haven't cheated _yet_ - again, not surprising. Same reasons as above. It dilutes the atrocity of cheating and spreads it around.
> 
> I get it. I don't believe any of it, but I get the why...the thinking behind it.


So what if you have never cheated and never will. Does that make you somehow superior? I've never tried drugs and I have no reason to ever do so. Does that make me a better person than an addict? If I am boasting about the fact that "I" would never ever take drugs, how does that make a person who has tried drugs feel? I guess it would depend on their own feelings of self worth. So really, the fact that I wouldn't do what they have done, well, it's pointless. They are a flawed human being - as are we all. The message here should be about healing, not about one group of people who are hurting more than another group.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> So what if you have never cheated and never will. Does that make you somehow superior? I've never tried drugs and I have no reason to ever do so. Does that make me a better person than an addict? If I am boasting about the fact that "I" would never ever take drugs, how does that make a person who has tried drugs feel? I guess it would depend on their own feelings of self worth. So really, the fact that I wouldn't do what they have done, well, it's pointless. They are a flawed human being - as are we all. The message here should be about healing, not about one group of people who are hurting more than another group.


This is a forum about adultery. If you went onto a drug rehab forum, were high on smack, blaming other people in your life for being a junkie, and asserting that people who have never done drugs just haven't done them _yet_, you'd probably be criticized too. 

This isn't about being "superior". I have many flaws and am FAR from perfect. Never have been, never will be. But this is a forum about cheating - and cheating is cruel, destructive, selfish, it ruins people's lives (including children). 

Your "superior" argument is a red herring.

Nobody claims to hurt more than anyone else. All sorts of people hurt in all sorts of ways. That's neither here nor there. And you won't be able to start "healing" until you (metaphor coming) take that needle out of your arm. But I'm sure you know that.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> So what if you have never cheated and never will. Does that make you somehow superior? I've never tried drugs and I have no reason to ever do so. Does that make me a better person than an addict? If I am boasting about the fact that "I" would never ever take drugs, how does that make a person who has tried drugs feel? I guess it would depend on their own feelings of self worth. So really, the fact that I wouldn't do what they have done, well, it's pointless. They are a flawed human being - as are we all. The message here should be about healing, not about one group of people who are hurting more than another group.


Some posters want ALL of the threads to be about them and their hate. Sad, really. I pity them. 
Zanne, I am really glad you have come here, and you can rest assured that not everybody on the CWI forum is a part of the BS posse.
I would also like to thank those posters who have shown courtesy and polite behavior. I have noticed , recently (within the last few days) a general improvement. There are still a few venom spitters, but most posters are really putting forth an effort to explain their positions without rancor, insults or putdowns..


----------



## Zanne

Healer said:


> Clearly. So why are you here?


I come to this website to learn about myself and about relationships. I have learned plenty from people who are far beyond me in terms of emotional growth.

I hardly EVER come to this forum (CWI) for obvious reasons, most of which have been proven in this thread. I said that I am fine being called out on my behavior because I know that I am in the wrong and I don't expect anyone to support me for it. I realize that I lose credibility because of it. However, it doesn't mean that my brain is somehow addled and I can't contribute to certain topics.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> I come to this website to learn about myself and about relationships. I have learned plenty from people who are far beyond me in terms of emotional growth.
> 
> I hardly EVER come to this forum (CWI) for obvious reasons, most of which have been proven in this thread. I said that I am fine being called out on my behavior because I know that I am in the wrong and I don't expect anyone to support me for it. I realize that I lose credibility because of it. However, it doesn't mean that my brain is somehow addled and I can't contribute to certain topics.


Fair enough.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Same condescension, irony, hypocritical name calling while whining about insults, if you don't agree you are a hater and portraying a martyr complex? 

Yep, same ole Rookie. 




Rookie4 said:


> Some posters want ALL of the threads to be about them and their hate. Sad, really. I pity them.
> 
> There are still a few venom spitters, but most posters are really putting forth an effort to explain their positions without rancor, insults or putdowns..


You are everything in this post and I pity you since you only see it in others.

I'll check back when it reaches 34 pages.


P.S. Before the smart alec page comments appear, I read TAM at 40 posts a page.


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Look, Bfree, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and I'm sorry you for your troubles. Lots of posters feel as you do. But it isn't the issue that I started this thread to address. My purpose was to get ideas about how we all can make TAM a safer place and thus get more WS participation, and why it is important to do so.


Sorry if I misdirected the thread. I joined midstream and wasn't aware that there was a particular path you wished the thread to take. I think my other posts have shown a propensity to agree with you that TAM can sometimes be less than welcoming to WS. But I do believe there are enough "moderates" here to make sure a positive voice doesn't get drowned out by the select few vocal posters who are still trying to work through their own pain. That's one reason I miss the Reconciliation thread in CWI. It was a safe place for WS to voice their concerns and feelings. I'm afraid we shall not see it's like again.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Some posters want ALL of the threads to be about them and their hate. Sad, really. I pity them.
> Zanne, I am really glad you have come here, and you can rest assured that not everybody on the CWI forum is a part of the BS posse.
> I would also like to thank those posters who have shown courtesy and polite behavior. I have noticed , recently (within the last few days) a general improvement. There are still a few venom spitters, but most posters are really putting forth an effort to explain their positions without rancor, insults or putdowns..


I haven't seen anyone express hate here. I've seen people challenge assertions, and criticize certain behaviors (on both the WS and the BS side).

I've also seen people called out on their lies, and have those lies proven.


----------



## Rookie4

Perhaps what is needed isn't a special forum for WS's, but a special forum for those posters who only want to use WS's as outlets for their rage and disdain?


----------



## Healer

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Same condescension, irony, hypocritical name calling while whining about insults, if you don't agree you are a hater and portraying a martyr complex?
> 
> Yep, same ole Rookie. I'll check back when it reaches 34 pages?
> 
> 
> P.S. Before the smart alec page comments appear, I read TAM at 40 posts a page.


rookie is confused on his definitions it seems. If you are critical of certain assertions, and express your disagreement with anything other than sweet nothings, you are a "hater" and part of the "mob". 

Fortunately I think most people see past that silliness and know it's not the case.

I've seen this exact thread by rookie before. "We must stop the vile persecution of WS or they'll stop coming and then we can't help them". It's ironic, because some of the most prolific "brow beating" that occurs on this forum is by rookie, towards BS.


----------



## Zanne

Healer said:


> This is a forum about adultery. If you went onto a drug rehab forum, were high on smack, blaming other people in your life for being a junkie, and asserting that people who have never done drugs just haven't done them _yet_, you'd probably be criticized too.
> 
> This isn't about being "superior". I have many flaws and am FAR from perfect. Never have been, never will be. But this is a forum about cheating - and cheating is cruel, destructive, selfish, it ruins people's lives (including children).
> 
> Your "superior" argument is a red herring.
> 
> Nobody claims to hurt more than anyone else. All sorts of people hurt in all sorts of ways. That's neither here nor there. And you won't be able to start "healing" until you (metaphor coming) take that needle out of your arm. But I'm sure you know that.


Good points. I don't necessarily think it is helpful to ruminate on the ways we all can sink to our humanly lows. I also believe people can change, but it comes from the ground up. It's a journey.

But how does any of that change the climate here? Rookie is saying there are improvements since he posted this thread. But this thread will sink to the bottom of the page soon and disappear into archives. He had another thread just like this one about a year ago.

As I said before, it serves me no purpose to post in this forum. I generally stay away. I only entered into this debate to throw my two cents in as a WS and also as a long time poster on TAM.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps what is needed isn't a special forum for WS's, but a special forum for those posters who only want to use WS's as outlets for their rage and disdain?


Again - you speak of phantoms. I see no rage or disdain here. Critical thinking, challenging of certain assertions and wholehearted disagreement does not equal rage or disdain.

You need to brush up on your definitions.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Sorry if I misdirected the thread. I joined midstream and wasn't aware that there was a particular path you wished the thread to take. I think my other posts have shown a propensity to agree with you that TAM can sometimes be less than welcoming to WS. But I do believe there are enough "moderates" here to make sure a positive voice doesn't get drowned out by the select few vocal posters who are still trying to work through their own pain. That's one reason I miss the Reconciliation thread in CWI. It was a safe place for WS to voice their concerns and feelings. I'm afraid we shall not see it's like again.


Not a prob, Bfree. I do see your point, and like I said, I am as guilty as anybody else for going off course. I have always respected your opinion on most issues, and know you to be a fair minded person.
I agree that the loss of the Reconciliation Thread was a serious mistake, and probably set back TAM considerably as a learning tool.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Healer said:


> I haven't seen anyone express hate here. I've seen people challenge assertions, and criticize certain behaviors (on both the WS and the BS side).


It is a myopic view by those with an agenda, who are just as bad in their fervor as the "no reconciliation" crowd. You are seeing it right now while some deny it exists.For example, the same venom has been spit at people choosing to spy on their allegedly cheating spouses. Vellocet was one who ended up banned, I warned him repeatedly, as he eventually did spew hate. 

What neither side discusses is the reality of this website. The extreme versions of each side won't tell you how many threads are closed, deleted, have posts removed, warnings issued in private, bans and threads where the Mods say Calm the *bleep* down. 

It's only that bad when it isn't your side perceptually winning.


----------



## Healer

Zanne said:


> Good points. I don't necessarily think it is helpful to ruminate on the ways we all can sink to our humanly lows. I also believe people can change, but it comes from the ground up. It's a journey.
> 
> But how does any of that change the climate here? Rookie is saying there are improvements since he posted this thread. But this thread will sink to the bottom of the page soon and disappear into archives. He had another thread just like this one about a year ago.
> 
> As I said before, it serves me no purpose to post in this forum. I generally stay away. I only entered into this debate to throw my two cents in as a WS and also as a long time poster on TAM.


Good points from you as well. But I honestly don't see the hatred or attacks that are being discussed. Is there critical analysis? Definitely. Is there intense disagreement with sometimes critical evidence thrown in? Yes, and I am definitely that guy on both counts.

But I haven't been abusive or "raged" or insulted people. And again, from what I've seen, unless a WS comes in blame shifting and looking for justification, they're treated fairly and people seem to want to help.

My problem with rookie and his threads is that I see an ulterior motive. I don't think he's genuine, at all. And hypocrisy really, really bothers me.

He has always blame shifted to the BS, and denies it. And when he's blatantly busted on it - with proof by way of his very own words, he puts you on ignore. There's a very passive aggressive bent to his threads, and some of the most disdain I've seen on this forum comes from him towards BS. I'm not sure why - some sort of self loathing?

But you'll see by the responses from a lot of people in this thread, that people see it for what it really is, and it really bothers people.


----------



## Rookie4

Zanne said:


> Good points. I don't necessarily think it is helpful to ruminate on the ways we all can sink to our humanly lows. I also believe people can change, but it comes from the ground up. It's a journey.
> 
> But how does any of that change the climate here? Rookie is saying there are improvements since he posted this thread. But this thread will sink to the bottom of the page soon and disappear into archives. He had another thread just like this one about a year ago.
> 
> As I said before, it serves me no purpose to post in this forum. I generally stay away. I only entered into this debate to throw my two cents in as a WS and also as a long time poster on TAM.


Well, Zanne, if this thread goes away, then somebody will start a new one. As long as there are posters who believe in fair play for all, and civil discourse, there will be threads like this to go to. I took a lot of heat the last time I started a thread like this, but it doesn't phase me . It becomes quickly apparent who is going to spit poison, and who is going to converse with civility, and the important thing is that it exists and will continue to do so.:smile2:


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Well, Zanne, if this thread goes away, then somebody will start a new one. As long as there are posters who believe in fair play for all, and civil discourse, there will be threads like this to go to. I took a lot of heat the last time I started a thread like this, but it doesn't phase me . It becomes quickly apparent who is going to spit poison, and who is going to converse with civility, and the important thing is that it exists and will continue to do so.:smile2:


Still waiting to see these poison spitting phantoms of which you speak. Sounds like they'd make an excellent Halloween costume.


----------



## Rookie4

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It is a myopic view by those with an agenda, who are just as bad in their fervor as the "no reconciliation" crowd. You are seeing it right now while some deny it exists.For example, the same venom has been spit at people choosing to spy on their allegedly cheating spouses. Vellocet was one who ended up banned, I warned him repeatedly, as he eventually did spew hate.
> 
> What neither side discusses is the reality of this website. The extreme versions of each side won't tell you how many threads are closed, deleted, have posts removed, warnings issued in private, bans and threads where the Mods say Calm the *bleep* down.
> 
> It's only that bad when it isn't your side perceptually winning.


I rarely agreed with Vellocet, but I always thought he was a good poster, who sometimes went too far. If you will recall , Philly, I used to be that way , myself. My position against reconciliation didn't win me many friends. LOL Neither did my position against electronic surveillance.


----------



## Wolf1974

Healer said:


> Still waiting to see these poison spitting phantoms of which you speak. Sounds like they'd make an excellent Halloween costume.


Tried to ask for examples myself several times and never got them. Maybe Zanne will step and up show these threads with the hate and venom they speak of. personally I think it's just that they don't like when their notions are challenged by a BS. For those saying they want to grow they sure seem to only want to hear what they want to hear and HOW they want to hear it. Hard to learn anything that way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> But I haven't been abusive or "raged" or insulted people.


I have felt insulted by you on this thread.

That may well be mutual from some of the things you have said. You don't seem to think much of my arguments or my attitude, and that's ok. 

But I do think you could have made your points, some of which were worth discussion, with less personal attack.

Take that as you will.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> I have felt insulted by you on this thread.
> 
> That may well be mutual from some of the things you have said. You don't seem to think much of my arguments or my attitude, and that's ok.
> 
> But I do think you could have made your points, some of which were worth discussion, with less personal attack.
> 
> Take that as you will.


Yeah, you replying "yes" to possibly being the next school shooter probably garnered a more visceral response from me than usual.


----------



## Wazza

Healer said:


> Yeah, you replying "yes" to possibly being the next school shooter probably garnered a more visceral response from me than usual.


It started from your first post to me. not licking my wounds. Just commenting because it was directly relevant to what you said.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Mr.Fisty said:


> Idealistically, we would all like everyone to respond in the most logical manner, but that will not occur. A BS emotionally abuses the WS, whether you or anyone else like what consequences may occur in response, the BS has made the outcome possible. Somehow a BS who betrays their relationship through neglect and abuse feels entitled to a faithful spouse. If a spouse abuses their partner and the partner suffers depression and drinks, then they are in part responsible for that outcome. Whether they like the consequence or not, they changed their partner through their action. People are plastic where they are constantly molded by environmental factors. An abuse victim may not be able to function in a normal healthy relationship once they leave their abusers.


I don't think you fully comprehend and appreciate the dynamic and psychology of abusive relationships with regard to infidelity. In those relationships where neglect & emotional, physical, psychological and verbal abuse are present, the abusive partner/victimizer tends to be the unfaithful party, not a betrayed spouse and I highly doubt you'd encounter them on these forums.

The spouse who betrays their relationship through neglect and abuse doesn't feel entitled to a faithful spouse, they guarantee it through aggression, intimidation, isolation, fear and manipulation.

The abuser basically controls every aspect of their partner's life so infidelity on the victim's part is extremely unlikely. Their (the victim's) _"__love__"_, devotion and fidelity lies with their abuser.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Tried to ask for examples myself several times and never got them. Maybe Zanne will step and up show these threads with the hate and venom they speak of. personally I think it's just that they don't like when their notions are challenged by a BS. For those saying they want to grow they sure seem to only want to hear what they want to hear and HOW they want to hear it. Hard to learn anything that way
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said that I would be glad to try looking up posts for you, once you have apologized and admitted that your post was insulting. You haven't done so, therefore I haven't looked up any posts.


----------



## Wazza

marduk said:


> Well, again, to be honest...
> 
> If a person hasn't don't something 99 times in a row, it's pretty improbable that they will do it the 100th time.
> 
> There's the existential possibility, and yet a vanishingly small real world probability that might as well be impossible.
> 
> It's possible that I can guess google's 256 bit AES key just by randomly typing in stuff, it's just such a low probability that it realistically is zero.
> 
> 2+2 != 5 for some values of 2.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.

My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.

So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.

If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?


----------



## Acoa

Wazza said:


> Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.
> 
> My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.
> 
> So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.
> 
> If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?



My EX broke at the 18 year mark, I don't think there is any safe amount of time. 

To use you're rogue wave analogy, you have to always consider it a risk. Pay attention at all times. A young mother who feels unloved has to understand that feeling is a warning. We are each the captain of our own feelings. We can either let our circumstances control us, or we can pilot ourselves in a direction that protects us.


----------



## GusPolinski

Wazza said:


> Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.
> 
> My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.
> 
> So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.
> 
> If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?


Poor little boat. If only it had stronger morals... maybe it wouldn't have tipped over.

Wait... that doesn't make any sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bfree

GusPolinski said:


> Poor little boat. If only it had stronger morals... maybe it wouldn't have tipped over.
> 
> Wait... that doesn't make any sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I did seriously lol at that.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I said that I would be glad to try looking up posts for you, once you have apologized and admitted that your post was insulting. You haven't done so, therefore I haven't looked up any posts.


It's rhetorical guy, They don't exist.

And I'm not a child and especially not your child. You want respect give it otherwise you get as you give. I said I would apologize when you did


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> It's rhetorical guy, They don't exist.
> 
> And I'm not a child and especially not your child. You want respect give it otherwise you get as you give. I said I would apologize when you did


 Dude, you started it. This thread was going on perfectly well, until you came on and called my post"nonsense" and made it personal. There isn't any reason why we can't discus issues without the nasty remarks. You want respect? Then keep your posts general and not personal. You could have said that you disagreed with me, then told me WHY you disagreed with me, and all would have been well. But you HAD to add that snide bit. And, basically proved my point. It isn't about disagreeing, it isn't about calling WS's to account, it is about the manner in which it is done.
There have been times when I have done the same thing, and have been banned for it, so I know what I'm talking about. But , at least I am willing to admit it.


----------



## Wolf1974

Wazza said:


> Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.
> 
> My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.
> 
> So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.
> 
> *If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?*


For me it's more than just time it's prevailing attitude about cheating. To use AP as an example that kind of attitude about cheating can occur because your forced into it by your spouse is a huge turn off and a no go zone for me. At 41 I now date 30+ women. So they have history. That attitude or examples of infidelity in the past is someone I don't want in my life. I definetly feel that's a much better process than "anyone can cheat but I can mitigate by doing xyz to prevent being cheated on". Sorry I did all the right things and STILL got cheated on. One thing I didn't do was recognize my X for the person she was. I was naive by youth and blinded by love and talked myself into something I should have known better


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you started it. This thread was going on perfectly well, until you came on and called my post"nonsense" and made it personal. There isn't any reason why we can't discus issues without the nasty remarks. You want respect? Then keep your posts general and not personal. You could have said that you disagreed with me, then told me WHY you disagreed with me, and all would have been well. But you HAD to add that snide bit. And, basically proved my point. It isn't about disagreeing, it isn't about calling WS's to account, it is about the manner in which it is done.
> There have been times when I have done the same thing, and have been banned for it, so I know what I'm talking about. But , at least I am willing to admit it.


As I said you give it to get it. You have a long history with being snide and disrespectful toward me and other posters and have been called out several times by others for same thing. As you state you have been banned for it...

Ask me how many times I have been banned

Again rhetorical it's zero. 

Reason is I don't bash and don't call names cause it makes zero sense to. Those who have been banned and while at times i have agreed with their premise, velloct comes to mind, Thier is no place for that junk here

You want respect than give it and if you can't manage that then at least be civil and that will be enough for me anyway.

But I do appreciate that once again I am being cited as the responsible party for your thread Jack all I wanted was some examples. Still waiting for them


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Poor little boat. If only it had stronger morals... maybe it wouldn't have tipped over.
> 
> Wait... that doesn't make any sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This kind of thing scares the crap out of me. I am not afraid of much, but I am afraid of being in/on the ocean. When I go on Vacations to the Islands, or the coast, I get very nervous when we get out of sight of land.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> As I said you give it to get it. You have a long history with being snide and disrespectful toward me and other posters and have been called out several times by others for same thing. As you state you have been banned for it...
> 
> Ask me how many times I have been banned
> 
> Again rhetorical it's zero.
> 
> Reason is I don't bash and don't call names cause it makes zero sense to. Those who have been banned and while at times i have agreed with their premise, velloct comes to mind, Thier is no place for that junk here
> 
> You want respect than give it and if you can't manage that then at least be civil and that will be enough for me anyway.
> 
> But I do appreciate that once again I am being cited as the responsible party for your thread Jack all I wanted was some examples. Still waiting for them


That's OK, Wolf, I already knew that you wouldn't admit it.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> That's OK, Wolf, I already knew that you wouldn't admit it.


Admit what? Nothing to admit. If you show some example like I asked for then I could admit I was wrong. Still waiting to be shown and I asked you several times and said please

So......


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> I said that I would be glad to try looking up posts for you, once you have apologized and admitted that your post was insulting. You haven't done so, therefore I haven't looked up any posts.


LOL! That's rich coming from you.


----------



## Healer

Wazza said:


> Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.
> 
> My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.
> 
> So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.
> 
> If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?


Blame hormones, an old flame, mlc, feeling unattractive, a tight pair of Wranglers, the Yeti, vapor trails...it still comes down to a choice and free will. There are people who have experienced everything you listed and still made the choice not to cheat. Choice. Free will. Adults. There's no voodoo, there's no magic, there's no "fog". There's a 1 or a zero. **** somebody who isn't your spouse, behind said spouse's back, or don't.

It's been proven over and over again people ARE capable of NOT cheating. Some just make the decision to do so. Many don't.


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> I said I would apologize when you did


Lol. Don't hold your breath.


----------



## convert

Rookie4 said:


> Back when I first discovered my ex wife's affair. I visited a lot of forums to learn more about what was happening. One of those I visited was "Chat cheaters". It no longer exists. Why? Because the moderators allowed the BS's to insult and and vilify all WS's and anybody else who disagreed with them. So, eventually the *forum died because it became just a pity party for BS's* and everybody told the same stories over and over again, and nobody learned anything. TAM is in great danger of becoming the same thing. I would like to ask that there be specific forums for WS's and those actually wanting to learn to be able to do so without being mobbed by a lot of haters.


Back to the original post.

I don't think BS's get a pity party here on TAM.

*The 2x4's come out for the BS's as much if not more then the WS's at times.*

sometimes for good reasons; We have seen BS's being a doormat, being in denial, taken the blame for the affair, trying to nice their WS back, think of a RA, getting gas lighted, putting up with a serial cheater and more


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Dude, you started it.


Seriously dying over here.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Admit what? Nothing to admit. If you show some example like I asked for then I could admit I was wrong. Still waiting to be shown and I asked you several times and said please
> 
> So......


Did you or did you not say my post was 'nonsense"? Is that a polite response or isn't it? Now, there is an example for you.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Did you or did you not say my post was 'nonsense"? Is that a polite response or isn't it? Now, there is an example for you.


That is pretty scathing. Vicious in fact. I can't believe "nonsense" isn't starred out!


----------



## Rookie4

convert said:


> Back to the original post.
> 
> I don't think BS's get a pity party here on TAM.
> 
> *The 2x4's come out for the BS's as much if not more then the WS's at times.*
> 
> sometimes for good reasons; We have seen BS's being a doormat, being in denial, taken the blame for the affair, trying to nice their WS back, think of a RA, getting gas lighted, putting up with a serial cheater and more


I see your point, Convert, but disagree with your conclusion. There are many, many more BS's on the CWI forum than there are WS's, so it stands to reason that there is a reason why these WS posters are leaving and the BS posters stay. I don't see the rancor against "weak" BS's that I see against WS's. I do agree that there has been times when I have gotten involved with a thread where a BS is showing a lack of fortitude, and have called him /her on it. It happened quite recently, as a matter of fact.


----------



## convert

Rookie4 said:


> I see your point, Convert, but disagree with your conclusion. *There are many, many more BS's on the CWI forum than there are WS's,* so it stands to reason that there is a reason why these WS posters are leaving and the BS posters stay. I don't see the rancor against "weak" BS's that I see against WS's. I do agree that there has been times when I have gotten involved with a thread where a BS is showing a lack of fortitude, and have called him /her on it. It happened quite recently, as a matter of fact.


true
and some BS's end up leaving sometimes too when we tell them what they *don't* want to hear.

denial is not good to have


----------



## karole

Good grief. Rookie, if you aren't a lawyer, you missed your calling because I don't think I've ever seen any person on this board that loved to stir things up and then argue about it more than you.


----------



## Pluto2

There's a flaw in your logic, Rookie. When a couple experiences infidelity, the are multiple outcomes, which are for the most part dumped on the BS shoulders who come for help. It starts with "Is my H cheating?" then the "How do I confront" "Do I D OR R" "Is he lying when he/she?" threads. The if there is a D, the bs "How do I recover from the paint" and "How can I trust again" threads.

For a WS, the ones who come are almost always the "I messed up what do I do" threads. The other WS go on their way. 
That is why there are so many fewer WS threads.

And there are several BS who get hit with 2X4 for believing the crap, not standing up for themselves or rolling over in a divorce all because they've yet to recover from the hurt and betrayal of the infidelity-but I don't see you in many of those threads. That's fine. Guess its not your cup of tea.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Did you or did you not say my post was 'nonsense"? Is that a polite response or isn't it? Now, there is an example for you.


Ok then 

So no posts I guess 

sounds good we can move on


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> Blame hormones, an old flame, mlc, feeling unattractive, a tight pair of Wranglers, the Yeti, vapor trails...it still comes down to a choice and free will. There are people who have experienced everything you listed and still made the choice not to cheat. Choice. Free will. Adults. There's no voodoo, there's no magic, there's no "fog". There's a 1 or a zero. **** somebody who isn't your spouse, behind said spouse's back, or don't.
> 
> It's been proven over and over again people ARE capable of NOT cheating. Some just make the decision to do so. Many don't.


This is actually a very good example and helps to prove my point. Thanks, Healer.
This post ( although off topic) is perfectly ok ....why?.. because it is a GENERAL observation. Now, if this post had been DIRECTED at a particular poster, it would be rude and offensive. When a WS gets DOZENS of such posts, they should think about leaving. 
If you want examples of such behavior, look at some of the responses to EI's posts in the Reconciliation thread. Look at how "Tears" was treated in her thread. Look at Zanne's thread. Look at Someday Dig's threads. He was even permabanned because of the amount of abuse his WS wife was subject to, and he tried to defend her. There, you have 4 examples, but you will have to look them up in the archives and read them for yourself. :smile2:


----------



## Healer

karole said:


> Good grief. Rookie, if you aren't a lawyer, you missed your calling because I don't think I've ever seen any person on this board that loved to stir things up and then argue about it more than you.


But lawyers can't just bury their head in the sand and put you on ignore when you flat out catch them in a lie and prove it.


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok then
> 
> So no posts I guess
> 
> sounds good we can move on


********!! (N*nsense).


----------



## Rookie4

karole said:


> Good grief. Rookie, if you aren't a lawyer, you missed your calling because I don't think I've ever seen any person on this board that loved to stir things up and then argue about it more than you.


That might be true, Karole, if this was somebody elses' thread. But it happens to be mine, and I don't recall ever forcing anybody to stay.


----------



## Wolf1974

That's not shouting down, name calling or disrepect. I don't see how saying this in general or saying it directly to someone saying otherwise makes any difference. As you pointed out before rookie you and I see shouting down very differently. I see it as name calling and outburst not this at all.


----------



## Acoa

Wolf1974 said:


> Ok then
> 
> So no posts I guess
> 
> sounds good we can move on


The mods here do a good job of eliminating any hate speech and personal attacks. In addition to warnings and bans, they delete specific posts and sometimes entire threads (unless there is something of merit, then they lock it). I think the mods would frown upon quoting any deleted posts. There may even be a rule against it. :surprise:

I've been around TAM shorter than some, but long enough to see a few of threads spiral out of control It typically starts with a simple debate (not all that dissimilar to the one you and Rookie are having now), which slowly erodes from a point that has merit debating into an interpersonal conflict. Those conflicts either deescalate or build up steam to the point the mods have to step in.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> This is actually a very good example and helps to prove my point. Thanks, Healer.
> This post ( although off topic) is perfectly ok ....why?.. because it is a GENERAL observation. Now, if this post had been DIRECTED at a particular poster, it would be rude and offensive. When a WS gets DOZENS of such posts, they should think about leaving.
> If you want examples of such behavior, look at some of the responses to EI's posts in the Reconciliation thread. Look at how "Tears" was treated in her thread. Look at Zanne's thread. Look at Someday Dig's threads. He was even permabanned because of the amount of abuse his WS wife was subject to, and he tried to defend her. There, you have 4 examples, but you will have to look them up in the archives and read them for yourself. :smile2:


This is how I've always made my point. I think the yeti and wrangler thing is new, but other than that, this is status quo.


----------



## Wolf1974

Also I have seen the same said by WS here and that seems acceptable. Seems that the only difference in how something is taken is by who it was said by


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> Also I have seen the same said by WS here and that seems acceptable. Seems that the only difference in how something is taken is by who it was said by


Indeed, the ironic double standard.


----------



## Wolf1974

Acoa said:


> *The mods here do a good job of eliminating any hate speech and personal attacks. In addition to warnings and bans, they delete specific posts and sometimes entire threads (unless there is something of merit, then they lock it). I think the mods would frown upon quoting any deleted posts. There may even be a rule against it. :surprise:*
> 
> I've been around TAM shorter than some, but long enough to see a few of threads spiral out of control It typically starts with a simple debate (not all that dissimilar to the one you and Rookie are having now), which slowly erodes from a point that has merit debating into an interpersonal conflict. Those conflicts either deescalate or build up steam to the point the mods have to step in.


I also agree the mods have done a good job of banning people and have been here long enough to see it. That was my original point not that this behavior doesn't exist rather that it is held accountable. It is as evidenced by what your saying. If their was name calling and shouting down and it wasn't held accountable by the mods , deejo, then they would be all over. Since they aren't it shows it is being held accountable which was my point.


----------



## Marduk

Wazza said:


> Been thinking over this. For those who haven't heard the news, a whale watching boat called the Leviathan 2 went down off Vancouver Island in Canada. Five dead, and one missing, likely dead. That boat had been doing the same trip, twice daily, for twenty years. That's about 14,000 safe trips. And then it appears that an unusual combination of circumstances creates a different outcome. The speculation is, a freak wave came at the wrong time, from the wrong direction, when people were on the other side, and the boat capsized.
> 
> My observation of affairs is that there is, sometimes at least, a tipping point. A wife with young kids, feeling unloved and unattractive, becomes vulnerable. Someone has a midlife crisis. A woman's sexuality cuts in and the hormones drive her crazy. At a low point in a relationship, someone new and attractive, or an old flame, comes on the scene. These are the sorts of confluence of circumstances when the unexpected can happen. And it's hard to be sure exactly what was different.
> 
> So, Marduke, and others, how long a period of fidelity tells you that someone is trustworthy? My wife broke at about the 9 year mark. Zanne, if she is still here, broke at about 23-24 years. I remember one thread where a woman broke at about the 40 year mark.
> 
> If past good behaviour is the guarantee, how long puts you out of the danger zone?


I think, for me, it's to separate 'existential' threats from 'practical' threats.

It is possible that I will die in a firey car crash on my way to work today. But I still come in to work today, because I judge that risk/reward ratio to be worth it -- getting paid today, vs being safe from in a car accident today.

In other words, it is improbable enough that I will die in a car crash that I drive into work today to get the reward.

Regarding infidelity: I thought there were ways to virtually guarantee that your spouse wouldn't cheat. I thought that if I became really hot, made her really happy, if I kept a reasonable eye on things, and if I paid attention to her... that there would be no way that she would ever even flirt with cheating.

I was wrong. My wife started up an EA when we were doing the best we had ever been doing. She was so happy, she literally could not believe it. And yet she started chatting and phone calling this guy behind my back.

Sure, there are things you can do to minimize the possability... but people are people. You either trust them, don't trust them, or more likely they fall somewhere between the two. 

But the fact is, you cannot control other people. So don't try. 

Do what you need to do that is within your control to do: pay attention to them, give them attention, respect, affection. Be attractive, keep them satisfied, do all that stuff.

Trust but verify. Keep your head on a swivel, but don't be all intrusive about it. To much magnum PI and they will hide things just because that's a normal response to people intruding too much.

The thing is, most people give off lots of signs that they are going to have an affair long before they do. My wife did when she started talking to this guy. She told me she ran into him (guy from her past), I got mad, she started lying. 

But I knew in my gut that getting mad about it was a mistake, because it tipped my hand and changed the problem from being about her and this guy, to being about me getting mad.

And I knew in my gut that she was in contact with him. I gave her chances to come clean, and finally she did.

Be pragmatic. Be trusting when people act like they deserve your trust. But always keep your head on a swivel.

The fact is, people will cheat if they wanna cheat. You can't stop it. You can't police them every second of their life. So don't try! Be open, be aware, be a compassionate and loving partner, and every once in a while check in in a non-intrusive way to make sure everything's on the up and up.

There are things in life you can control, and things you can't control.


----------



## karole

Rookie4 said:


> That might be true, Karole, if this was somebody elses' thread. But it happens to be mine, and I don't recall ever forcing anybody to stay.


That is true, but "your thread" is on a public forum that exists for discussion purposes. I simply made an obvious observation from reading this thread and your past threads.


----------



## Wolf1974

I really like the car analogy seems to fit.

Some are trying to keep the reliable car and some are trying to keep the questionable car from breaking down. Shows the different philosophy.

Risk vs reward


----------



## Rookie4

karole said:


> That is true, but "your thread" is on a public forum that exists for discussion purposes. I simply made an obvious observation from reading this thread and your past threads.


Karole, considering the large number of "likes" I get on my threads and posts, I must be doing something right. So, you don't like me? I'm OK with that. :smile2: It will not effect how I respond to your posts, in any way. If I am being attacked by posters who seem to have a hate filled agenda, which I don't think you are one, then I simply refuse to interact with that poster, until they stop.


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> There's a flaw in your logic, Rookie. When a couple experiences infidelity, the are multiple outcomes, which are for the most part dumped on the BS shoulders who come for help. It starts with "Is my H cheating?" then the "How do I confront" "Do I D OR R" "Is he lying when he/she?" threads. The if there is a D, the bs "How do I recover from the paint" and "How can I trust again" threads.
> 
> For a WS, the ones who come are almost always the "I messed up what do I do" threads. The other WS go on their way.
> That is why there are so many fewer WS threads.
> 
> And there are several BS who get hit with 2X4 for believing the crap, not standing up for themselves or rolling over in a divorce all because they've yet to recover from the hurt and betrayal of the infidelity-but I don't see you in many of those threads. That's fine. Guess its not your cup of tea.


Well, I'm from the south, so I only drink tea with ice in it, in the summer.:grin2: As far as BS threads go, I go into the ones where there seems to be an issue with electronic surveillance, or the BS is being weak-kneed . I would have to check, but I think the last time I was banned was on the same thread that Vellocet was , too. It was a poster who was almost unbelievably gullible , and we both got banned trying to get him to buck-up.:grin2:
ON my own threads, I always try to get maximum participation by BOTH WS's and BS's, and will deliberately not favor one or the other. 
Are there WS's who I think are off the wall? Of course. There was one on the reconciliation thread that used to drive me crazy. She was a professional woman , who had multiple affairs, repented, and was really doing a lot to atone, but she was CONSTANTLY posting that she could not understand why it was taking her H so long to forgive her. I bet she made 25 posts about the same thing. Some of the older posters know who I am talking about.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Karole, considering the large number of "likes" I get on my threads and posts, I must be doing something right. So, you don't like me? I'm OK with that. :smile2: It will not effect how I respond to your posts, in any way. If I am being attacked by posters who seem to have a hate filled agenda, which I don't think you are one, then I simply refuse to interact with that poster, until they stop.


You confuse being busted lying and being a hypocrite with being attacked. And I've seen nobody here with a hate filled agenda. An intolerance for lying, hypocrisy and blame shifting to BS, yes. Hatred? Nobody here is invested in you enough to hate you man. But we do call it like we see it.

And if you're going by "likes" to gauge things - the posts where you get called on your behavior receive a lot of those too.


----------



## pidge70

Healer said:


> You confuse being busted lying and being a hypocrite with being attacked. And I've seen nobody here with a hate filled agenda. An intolerance for lying, hypocrisy and blame shifting to BS, yes. Hatred? Nobody here is invested in you enough to hate you man. But we do call it like we see it.
> 
> And if you're going by "likes" to gauge things - the posts where you get called on your behavior receive a lot of those too.


Not to mention, consider those that are doing the liking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

I remember when Rookie first started posting on the Reconciliation thread. Rude as Hell he was to EI.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

pidge70 said:


> Not to mention, consider those that are doing the liking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent point.


----------



## oneMOreguy

It's kinda funny......the whole premise of this thread was not about blame, responsibility, etc. It was merely about treating WS with kindness and civility..........and accepting that their posts might provide some value. And if you disagree with them, do it without demonizing them. At least that's what I got out of it. It has now evolved into something quite different and ugly. Personal disputes and talking past each other. Such a shame really.

No one here ever says a WS can ultimately duck blame and responsibility BTW. How can you truly read that into any posts. It was an interesting discussion of sorts.......buy why continue it. You all are just going in a circle at this point........


----------



## EI

Rookie4 said:


> Not a prob, Bfree. I do see your point, and like I said, I am as guilty as anybody else for going off course. I have always respected your opinion on most issues, and know you to be a fair minded person.
> I agree that the loss of the Reconciliation Thread was a serious mistake, and probably set back TAM considerably as a learning tool.


The Reconciliation thread is not "lost," it's just many, many pages down. It was an incredible thread in CWI, and it had a great run (even if I do say so, myself.) I'm not taking any of the credit for that, it was B1's thread from day one. He has an incredible gift for being the anchor in my storm. And, as it turned out, he created a thread that evolved into an anchor for many TAMers who were in the midst of their own storms of infidelity. 

I honestly believe that the success of our "new" marriage was made possible by the incredibly selfless and amazing posters on that thread, both BS's and (yes) WS's, alike. The R thread was a TAM community co-op for those of us who were coping with infidelity. Everyone came together, and genuinely treated one another the way that we would each like to be treated. You don't have to agree with everything that someone says, thinks, or feels in order to be civil to them. 

We never avoided talking about the hard realities of infidelity. It was not sugar-coated, as many non R thread regulars seemed to believe. We didn't treat infidelity with kid gloves, but we did treat every poster with kindness and courtesy. You don't have to respect someone's choices to simply be courteous to them. Respect is something that an individual must earn. Courtesy is something that we choose to give. As a result, there was never an us against them mentality on the R thread, and we were able to learn a great deal from one another. 

Like I said, the R thread isn't lost, it's still out there, and anyone is welcome to bump it any time they like, although B1 won't be coming back. He never was someone who enjoyed a lot of drama or being in the spotlight. He's just my B1; strong, solid, incredible, forgiving, amazing, handsome...... I honestly couldn't find enough wonderful things to say about him. And, most of all, he loves me, so very much, and I love him, with every ounce of my being. 

Our life is still extremely challenging. That's just the way it is, and always has been. On Monday, our 49 y/o brother-in-law died after a hard fought 2 1/2 year battle with cancer. He was my skydiving partner, twice, and he was our very good friend, as well. We're also still in the midst of dealing with some very serious issues with one of our sons. He became addicted to his pain pills after he had a cadaver knee transplant, at the age of 18, almost 5 years ago. He shattered it playing football and had 4 surgeries over a 17 month period of time. It remains a struggle that he has yet to overcome. It has been heartbreaking for our whole family. I am just so grateful that B1 and I have one another to lean on, and to stand strong, together, for our children, and for our grandson. 

On a very positive note, B1's Testerone injections are still working beautifully!  In fact, after 3 1/2 years of reconciliation, I can honestly say that our hysterical bonding is still in high gear. 

Sorry for the TJ, Rookie (nah, not really.)  I think that my original point was intended to be that showing one another courtesy does lend itself to allowing a genuine and honest dialog to develop between BS's and WS's that can be a valuable resource for those who are interested. 

Take care,
EI


----------



## Rookie4

pidge70 said:


> I remember when Rookie first started posting on the Reconciliation thread. Rude as Hell he was to EI.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have never, ever said that I wasn't as guilty as other posters. I was pretty hard on EI, in the beginning, but like she says, we grew to have a great deal of respect for each other. She is , by far , the most courteous poster on the CWI forum, and maybe the most honest. Not bad for a FWS, is it?:grin2::grin2:


----------



## Pluto2

Rookie4 said:


> ON my own threads, I always try to get maximum participation by BOTH WS's and BS's, and will deliberately not favor one or the other.


Not one bit responsive, oh well. As you say, its your thread and you'll post what you like.

And I lost some of my coffee reading YOU, write THIS.

Happy Halloween Rookie


----------



## pidge70

Rookie4 said:


> I have never, ever said that I wasn't as guilty as other posters. I was pretty hard on EI, in the beginning, but like she says, we grew to have a great deal of respect for each other. She is , by far , the most courteous poster on the CWI forum, and maybe the most honest. Not bad for a FWS, is it?:grin2::grin2:


She is a peach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

Rookie4 said:


> Karole, *considering the large number of "likes" I get on my threads and posts, I must be doing something right.* So, you don't like me? I'm OK with that. :smile2: It will not effect how I respond to your posts, in any way. If I am being attacked by posters who seem to have a hate filled agenda, which I don't think you are one, then I simply refuse to interact with that poster, until they stop.


That's your metric?

OK...

Talk About Marriage - View Profile: GusPolinski

/micdrop


----------



## Rookie4

Pluto2 said:


> Not one bit responsive, oh well. As you say, its your thread and you'll post what you like.
> 
> And I lost some of my coffee reading YOU, write THIS.
> 
> Happy Halloween Rookie


It is amazing how if you say anything at all conciliatory about a WS, then you are somehow "on their side". Right back at you, Pluto. Don't eat too much candy.:smile2:


----------



## Rookie4

pidge70 said:


> She is a peach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is every bit of it. You aren't so bad, yourself.:smile2: Are you dressing up for Halloween?


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> That's your metric?
> 
> OK...
> 
> Talk About Marriage - View Profile: GusPolinski
> 
> /micdrop


Well, Gus, it's as good a yardstick as I'm ever likely to get.:laugh::laugh:


----------



## Healer

oneMOreguy said:


> It's kinda funny......the whole premise of this thread was not about blame, responsibility, etc. It was merely about treating WS with kindness and civility..........and accepting that their posts might provide some value. And if you disagree with them, do it without demonizing them. At least that's what I got out of it. It has now evolved into something quite different and ugly. Personal disputes and talking past each other. Such a shame really.
> 
> No one here ever says a WS can ultimately duck blame and responsibility BTW. How can you truly read that into any posts. It was an interesting discussion of sorts.......buy why continue it. You all are just going in a circle at this point........


That's the rub. Some of us have a problem with this thread because we see its ulterior motive, what's behind it. It goes deeper than what you've described. 

"How can you truly read that into any posts."

Oh they're there, believe me. See some of rookie's posts - or better yet - the ones where I quoted him doing exactly that. 

Also - even discounting hidden agendas - the point of us challenging him in this thread is that we don't believe WS are brutalized like rookie would have you believe. Again - WS who come here contrite, accepting responsibility and wanting to be better people/help their BS ARE treated with respect. You may get a few rogue, angry people who just "spit venom", but they're few and far between, they get punted quickly, and there are just as many if not more BS who are treated badly and have the blame of the affair shifted to them.

So, it goes deeper than just "poor rookie was just trying to be a swell guy and we all derailed his well-intentioned thread".


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> It is amazing how if you say anything at all conciliatory about a WS, then you are somehow "on their side". Right back at you, Pluto. Don't eat too much candy.:smile2:


This isn't about "sides".


----------



## GusPolinski

Posted this is another thread and re-posting here because I believe that it applies to the overall point of the thread...



GusPolinski said:


> I'm just going to be honest here --
> 
> You came to a forum called "Coping With Infidelity", which is largely populated by people who are, in fact, _coping w/ infidelity_. You CAN'T have expected that every reply that you'd receive would be dripping w/ cotton candy waffle batter.
> 
> Does that excuse unnecessarily negative comments? No.
> 
> But infidelity isn't a noble thing, and it is rightfully viewed w/ derision. And if your chief concern here is any negative comments that you may receive, then you're focused on the wrong thing.
> 
> If you read something that you find unnecessarily negative, harassing, or insulting, click the report button. Otherwise I'd advise you to simply ignore it.
> 
> Buck up. You've got a tough road ahead if you're going to reconcile your marriage.
> 
> At least if you do it properly.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

GusPolinski said:


> Posted this is another thread and re-posting here because I believe that it applies to the overall point of the thread...
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with you, Gus, but also......how about a little self control by some of the BS posters? There are posters who simply cannot help themselves, and will go out of their way to deride a WS. Perhaps if we all exhibited a little more civility, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.


----------



## Heatherknows

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with you, Gus, but also......how about a little self control by some of the BS posters? There are posters who simply cannot help themselves, and will go out of their way to deride a WS. Perhaps if we all exhibited a little more civility, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.


I'm proud of you Rookie. It's difficult to go against the behavior of the group. I posted on a forum similar to this when I was in the mist of my cyber affair. I wasn't ready to tell my husband and wasn't sure if I needed to. I was afraid, depressed, ashamed and at an all time low. I wanted support to leave the affair but instead what I got was verbally kicked and punched. I was called every name because I wasn't ready to tell my husband and may have not told him at all. I was at step one. I wanted to end the affair. But when I received verbal abuse from the forum members I became even more depressed. I disabled my account and contacted my cyber boyfriend for comfort and the affair continued for a couple of more years.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> I'm proud of you Rookie. It's difficult to go against the behavior of the group. I posted on a forum similar to this when I was in the mist of my cyber affair. I wasn't ready to tell my husband and wasn't sure if I needed to. I was afraid, depressed, ashamed and at an all time low. I wanted support to leave the affair but instead what I got was verbally kicked and punched. I was called every name because I wasn't ready to tell my husband and may have not told him at all. I was at step one. I wanted to end the affair. But when I received verbal abuse from the forum members I became even more depressed. I disabled my account and contacted my cyber boyfriend for comfort and the affair continued for a couple of more years.


So anonymous posters on the internet were at fault for you continuing your affair for a couple more years.

Now I'm by no means attacking you or being abusive - but this mind set right here - blatant blame shifting to strangers for your continued transgressions, will garner criticism, and rightfully so.

You continuing your affair for 2 more years was 100% on you - not people talking smack on the interwebs. It's not the responsibility of strangers to help you do the right thing, and nobody is culpable for your actions except for you.


----------



## Heatherknows

Healer said:


> So anonymous posters on the internet were at fault for you continuing your affair for a couple more years.
> 
> Now I'm by no means attacking you or being abusive - but this mind set right here - blatant blame shifting to strangers for your continued transgressions, will garner criticism, and rightfully so.
> 
> You continuing your affair for 2 more years was 100% on you - not people talking smack on the interwebs. It's not the responsibility of strangers to help you do the right thing, and nobody is culpable for your actions except for you.


I was reaching out for help and I got kicked instead. Yeah, the mean forum people didn't force me back into an affair but they also didn't provide the support to help me get out of one. That means being cruel to a WS who offered a confession doesn't help anyone. It might give the BS someone to use as a punching bag for a bit and maybe they'll feel so good and vindicated that they got to yell at someone for a moment but that moment will pass and all that is left is more bad energy.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> ...but they also didn't provide the support to help me get out of one.


Do you see the problem with this line of thinking?


----------



## Heatherknows

Healer said:


> Do you see the problem with this line of thinking?


Let's start with the obvious. 

Why did you name yourself "healer?"


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> Let's start with the obvious.
> 
> Why did you name yourself "healer?"


It has about as much meaning as "Heatherknows". Good luck to you, seriously.


----------



## Rookie4

Heatherknows said:


> I'm proud of you Rookie. It's difficult to go against the behavior of the group. I posted on a forum similar to this when I was in the mist of my cyber affair. I wasn't ready to tell my husband and wasn't sure if I needed to. I was afraid, depressed, ashamed and at an all time low. I wanted support to leave the affair but instead what I got was verbally kicked and punched. I was called every name because I wasn't ready to tell my husband and may have not told him at all. I was at step one. I wanted to end the affair. But when I received verbal abuse from the forum members I became even more depressed. I disabled my account and contacted my cyber boyfriend for comfort and the affair continued for a couple of more years.


I'm glad you are here, Heather, and I hope you will stay. I'm sorry , but I'm not familiar with your situation. If you would like, you can PM me and we can talk. I fully understand your feelings. Unfortunately, many posters do not. They simply are too filled with hate and disappointment to see that you CANNOT beat a bad horse and make it a good one. Without positive reinforcement, punishment is meaningless cruelty. The goal of the CWI forum should ALWAYS be to improve the lives of BOTH the BS and The WS, in the aftermath of the terrible crisis of infidelity.


----------



## Rookie4

I think that sometimes, Heather, posters do not tailor their remarks to fit the situation. You would think that they would ask themselves if what they are typing is what the OP is asking for. Too often, we all tend to view WS's and BS's in general terms, without understanding that each is an individual. I'm as guilty of this as anybody. So I am , by no means, being noble, just a guy trying to help people in trouble, and be fair about doing so.


----------



## Truthseeker1




----------



## bfree

Heather, I'm sorry you were not treated with respect during your initial go around here on TAM. I thank you for sharing your perspective and hope you get treated better now and in the future.


----------



## bfree

Truthseeker1 said:


>


This is very true. Also...


----------



## jld

Respect is earned.


----------



## Acoa

jld said:


> Respect is earned.



Don't marry someone you don't respect.


----------



## jld

Acoa said:


> Don't marry someone you don't respect.


I agree. If I did not respect my husband, I could not love him. Not in a marital way, anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

The other thing is that respect needs to be continuously earned. It is not a one time deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps if we all exhibited a little more civility, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.


I agree. If you used this focus on EVERY side of the Infidelity issue you'd probably have 1000 likes and a bunch of reposted "can't like it enough" posts. You irked people because you chose to focus on one side only, as if BSs don't get equal grief.

Yes, I know, I know....how dare I say BSs get as crap much as WWs.


----------



## GusPolinski

Acoa said:


> Don't marry someone you don't respect.


...and don't disrespect the person that you chose to marry.


----------



## bfree

jld said:


> The other thing is that respect needs to be continuously earned. It is not a one time deal.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I see it as once respect is earned it should remain in full effect unless and/or until it is lost. If I have to continually re-earn someone's respect then they do not deserve mine.


----------



## jld

I don't think it is necessarily a two way street. I think it is very possible for one person to respect another person very much while not even being noticed by that person.

I think we are earning, maintaining, or losing respect, either from others or ourselves, all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rookie4

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I agree. If you used this focus on EVERY side of the Infidelity issue you'd probably have 1000 likes and a bunch of reposted "can't like it enough" posts. You irked people because you chose to focus on one side only, as if BSs don't get equal grief.
> 
> Yes, I know, I know....how dare I say BSs get as crap much as WWs.


With all due respect, Philly do you truly believe what you said.? If you think that there is some kind of phantom WS posse who attack BS's as much as the reverse? When the ratio is something like 90% BS to 10% WS. How can you say what you did with a straight face?:grin2:


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> This isn't about "sides".


Maybe you are finally getting it. I agree completely. this isn't about "sides". EVERYBODY should be treated the same. BS's do not have a monopoly on courteous treatment. That is what this thread is about. If a WS doesn't agree with a BS......I don't care. If a BS disagrees with a WS.....I don't care. If one group gangs up on an individual......then I care.


----------



## oneMOreguy

Heatherknows said:


> Rookie4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you, Gus, but also......how about a little self control by some of the BS posters? There are posters who simply cannot help themselves, and will go out of their way to deride a WS. Perhaps if we all exhibited a little more civility, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm proud of you Rookie. It's difficult to go against the behavior of the group. I posted on a forum similar to this when I was in the mist of my cyber affair. I wasn't ready to tell my husband and wasn't sure if I needed to. I was afraid, depressed, ashamed and at an all time low. I wanted support to leave the affair but instead what I got was verbally kicked and punched. I was called every name because I wasn't ready to tell my husband and may have not told him at all. I was at step one. I wanted to end the affair. But when I received verbal abuse from the forum members I became even more depressed. I disabled my account and contacted my cyber boyfriend for comfort and the affair continued for a couple of more years.
Click to expand...

......I understand. Been close to that situation. How are things now? Usually time away from the AP is the start to recovering control and making better decisions. But it is tougher than many say. Start a thread if you need support now.


----------



## Heatherknows

oneMOreguy said:


> ......I understand. Been close to that situation. How are things now? Usually time away from the AP is the start to recovering control and making better decisions. But it is tougher than many say. Start a thread if you need support now.


I haven't had contact with my cyber boyfriend in about six months. It was a long term cyber affair and it's over. After him I did have inappropriate conversations with a guy on another website and I haven't had contact with him in three months. I did tell my husband about my indiscretions and he isn't happy, doesn't want me to repeat behavior but since it happened online he isn't all that bothered. I'm bothered and don't want to repeat the behavior so I'm here for affair proof maintenance. Since this is a pro-marriage site it's safe. I'm on another relationship site but I don't use it that much at this time. I also use it for affair proof maintenance. I realize my bad behavior can always come back and I need constant reminders to stay on the right path.


----------



## jld

Heatherknows said:


> I haven't had contact with my cyber boyfriend in about six months. It was a long term cyber affair and it's over. After him I did have inappropriate conversations with a guy on another website and I haven't had contact with him in three months. I did tell my husband about my indiscretions and he isn't happy, doesn't want me to repeat behavior but since it happened online he isn't all that bothered. I'm bothered and don't want to repeat the behavior so I'm here for affair proof maintenance. Since this is a pro-marriage site it's safe. I'm on another relationship site but I don't use it that much at this time. I also use it for affair proof maintenance. I realize my bad behavior can always come back and I need constant reminders to stay on the right path.


Has your husband tried to help you in any way? Have you two examined the reasons why you were drawn to another man in the first place?

I would say transparency is key for avoiding affairs. Go to your husband with all your temptations. He should be able to hear your concerns and give you the support you need to avoid getting yourself into danger.

Another thing that would help is knowing that you do not want that kind of drama in your life again. If you were a smoker and had stopped smoking, one of your greatest motivations would likely be to not be under that addiction again, the great feeling of freedom that would bring. Who wants to be a slave to something that hurts them? 

Not any healthy person. And you sound like you want to be healthy. Actually, you already sound quite healthy.


----------



## Heatherknows

jld said:


> Has your husband tried to help you in any way? Have you two examined the reasons why you were drawn to another man in the first place?
> 
> I would say transparency is key for avoiding affairs. Go to your husband with all your temptations. He should be able to hear your concerns and give you the support you need to avoid getting yourself into danger.
> 
> Another thing that would help is knowing that you do not want that kind of drama in your life again. If you were a smoker and had stopped smoking, one of your greatest motivations would likely be to not be under that addiction again, the great feeling of freedom that would bring. Who wants to be a slave to something that hurts them?
> 
> Not any healthy person. And you sound like you want to be healthy. Actually, you already sound quite healthy.


Thanks!

My husband knows about the two marriage websites I'm on and is OK about it, not thrilled but he knows I'm here for help. The biggest danger is when my husband gets too involved with his family and starts to neglect me. I feel lonely and angry and look for trouble/fun/pleasure in bad places. He knows about this and is trying to be there for me while at the same time taking care of family obligations that are important to him. His work takes him away from me a lot and when he comes home he's tired so when he takes his free time and spends it on his family I do get upset. We don't have children and spending time with extended family members is not what I enjoy. I like doing romantic couple things and bringing the dog places. It's a lifestyle choice.


----------



## jld

Heatherknows said:


> Thanks!
> 
> My husband knows about the two marriage websites I'm on and is OK about it, not thrilled but he knows I'm here for help. The biggest danger is when my husband gets too involved with his family and starts to neglect me. I feel lonely and angry and look for trouble/fun/pleasure in bad places. He knows about this and is trying to be there for me while at the same time taking care of family obligations that are important to him. His work takes him away from me a lot and when he comes home he's tired so when he takes his free time and spends it on his family I do get upset. We don't have children and spending time with extended family members is not what I enjoy. I like doing romantic couple things and bringing the dog places. It's a lifestyle choice.


Does he realize the risk he is taking by not prioritizing your needs?


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I agree with you, Gus, but also......how about a little self control by some of the BS posters? There are posters who simply cannot help themselves, and will go out of their way to deride a WS. Perhaps if we *all* exhibited a little more civility, I wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.


yes all not just those who agree with one viewpoint


----------



## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> I haven't had contact with my cyber boyfriend in about six months. It was a long term cyber affair and it's over. After him I did have inappropriate conversations with a guy on another website and I haven't had contact with him in three months. *I did tell my husband about my indiscretions and he isn't happy, doesn't want me to repeat behavior but since it happened online he isn't all that bothered*. I'm bothered and don't want to repeat the behavior so I'm here for affair proof maintenance. Since this is a pro-marriage site it's safe. I'm on another relationship site but I don't use it that much at this time. I also use it for affair proof maintenance. I realize my bad behavior can always come back and I need constant reminders to stay on the right path.


This seems a strange reaction from a husband. Is your perception he no longer cares about you? If so have you asked why?


----------



## bfree

Heatherknows said:


> Thanks!
> 
> My husband knows about the two marriage websites I'm on and is OK about it, not thrilled but he knows I'm here for help. The biggest danger is when my husband gets too involved with his family and starts to neglect me. I feel lonely and angry and look for trouble/fun/pleasure in bad places. He knows about this and is trying to be there for me while at the same time taking care of family obligations that are important to him. His work takes him away from me a lot and when he comes home he's tired so when he takes his free time and spends it on his family I do get upset. We don't have children and spending time with extended family members is not what I enjoy. I like doing romantic couple things and bringing the dog places. It's a lifestyle choice.


Heather, I'd like to respectfully make a point here if I might. While I agree that your husband should not prioritize his family over you he does need to still connect with them occasionally. Your comment that you oftentimes feel lonely and it leads you to bad places is quite troubling. My wife likes to say that although she loves to spend all her free time with me she doesn't expect me to be her entertainment director. She realizes that sometimes she will be alone as unfortunate as that is. So she has set about finding healthy activities and hobbies that she enjoys. She is involved in our church. Her photography and painting feeds her creative side. She also joined an all female gym where she also takes several classes including yoga and pilates. I would encourage you to find wholesome activities that you enjoy and at the same time have and honest straightforward conversation with your husband about setting up structured dates and joint activities that will bring you closer together.

And I'll add that if your husband is like me and he sees you pulling away he will not only notice but he'll feel your absence and make stronger efforts to spend more time with you.


----------



## Maricha75

Heather, something you said a few posts back really stood out to me. You said "since it happened online he isn't all that bothered." I'm wondering if he sees it more as you were "just flirting", even though you, yourself, know it was more than that? Does he, maybe, see it that you didn't "really" cheat because you never met in person, it was all online? I think that may be, in part, why he continues using much of his free time for his extended family. It sounds like he has the mentality that a lot of others do...since it was ONLY online, it isn't so bad... because you never had sex with OM. 

Heather, you seem to see TAM as a safe place because it is a marriage forum. You do, unfortunately, have to remain vigilant because there ARE predators who will come here, looking for vulnerable people to prey on. It happens. It HAS happened, a few times, on here. Just be careful. If in question, talk to a moderator or someone you can trust. Given the nature of your affair, I would suggest a woman, rather than a man, to discuss any concerns. 

Anyway, I am glad you have cut contact with OM. It isn't easy, I know. You seem to have your head back on straight, and are truly seeking how to draw your husband back in. Hopefully, he comes to understand that you two NEED to spend more time focusing on the two of you, rather than spending so much time on extended family.


----------



## Maricha75

Wolf1974 said:


> *This seems a strange reaction from a husband.* Is your perception he no longer cares about you? If so have you asked why?


Not really, Wolf. While the general consensus on TAM is that online/cyber affairs are just as damaging as an affair in the real world, some still only view it as flirting, no worse than going to a strip club or watching porn. They see it as a disappointment, but since there was nothing done in person, they feel it isn't SO bad.


----------



## jld

Heather, it is empowering to realize we can stand on our own, emotionally and psychologically independent of our husbands, if need be.

Do you feel you can do this? 

If not, what do you think could get you there?


----------



## Wolf1974

Maricha75 said:


> Not really, Wolf. While the general consensus on TAM is that online/cyber affairs are just as damaging as an affair in the real world, some still only view it as flirting, no worse than going to a strip club or watching porn. They see it as a disappointment, but since there was nothing done in person, they feel it isn't SO bad.


Hmm

An emotional affair and trying to hook up the same as watching porn....

Lol yep takes all kinds to make the world go round. While I don't condone her behavior I could understand the resentment


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> yes all not just those who agree with one viewpoint


I don't really care about a poster's viewpoint. As long as they express it in a friendly and courteous manner, it's all good.


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Hmm
> 
> An emotional affair and trying to hook up the same as watching porn....
> 
> Lol yep takes all kinds to make the world go round. While I don't condone her behavior I could understand the resentment


Wolf, I think Maricha's right about this. There are quite a few people (not me) who feel that EA's and more especially cyber EA's, are harmless flirting. Most evidence is to the contrary.


----------



## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Heather, I'd like to respectfully make a point here if I might. While I agree that your husband should not prioritize his family over you he does need to still connect with them occasionally. Your comment that you oftentimes feel lonely and it leads you to bad places is quite troubling. My wife likes to say that although she loves to spend all her free time with me she doesn't expect me to be her entertainment director. She realizes that sometimes she will be alone as unfortunate as that is. So she has set about finding healthy activities and hobbies that she enjoys. She is involved in our church. Her photography and painting feeds her creative side. She also joined an all female gym where she also takes several classes including yoga and pilates. I would encourage you to find wholesome activities that you enjoy and at the same time have and honest straightforward conversation with your husband about setting up structured dates and joint activities that will bring you closer together.
> 
> And I'll add that if your husband is like me and he sees you pulling away he will not only notice but he'll feel your absence and make stronger efforts to spend more time with you.


Really good post, Bfree.:smile2:


----------



## Maricha75

Wolf1974 said:


> Hmm
> 
> An emotional affair and trying to hook up the same as watching porn....
> 
> Lol yep takes all kinds to make the world go round. While I don't condone her behavior I could understand the resentment


Hey, I don't see them as the same. I don't like porn. But I don't put qn affair of any kind on par with porn. Yes, some do see it that way. Or... they SAY they do, or act like they do. Basically, they feel "hey, who cares where the inspiration came from as long as (s)he is in our bed every night?" Like you said, it takes all kinds.


----------



## Maricha75

Rookie4 said:


> Wolf, I think Maricha's right about this. There are quite a few people (not me) who feel that EA's and more especially cyber EA's, are harmless flirting. Most evidence is to the contrary.


Exactly. And a cyber EA can begin anywhere online. It can be on a forum, social media, or even a game. Too many think it is harmless because it IS online, but it can be just as detrimental.


----------



## Rookie4

Heather, rather than all of us taking this thread any further off topic, do you have a thread of your own , where we can better address your concerns?


----------



## bfree

Rookie4 said:


> Heather, rather than all of us taking this thread any further off topic, do you have a thread of your own , where we can better address your concerns?


Yes, and if she starts a thread let's make sure all the level headed respectful posters go there and create a positive helpful atmosphere so it doesn't devolve into a morass of negativity.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Maybe you are finally getting it. I agree completely. this isn't about "sides". EVERYBODY should be treated the same. BS's do not have a monopoly on courteous treatment. That is what this thread is about. If a WS doesn't agree with a BS......I don't care. If a BS disagrees with a WS.....I don't care. If one group gangs up on an individual......then I care.


In real life, "EVERYBODY" is not treated the same. You are treated in turn how you treat others. If you treat people horribly, then are smug and arrogant about it, you are going to get people not treating you the same as if you were respectful and decent.

And being "attacked" and "abused" is clearly a subjective thing. I do not equate criticism or strong disagreement with abuse or attacks. Name calling? Sure - I agree, not cool. That's why I don't do it. But I also don't feel the need to tippy toe around and kiss people's asses. For example when someone comes on here and blames the people on the internet for not preventing them from cheating, or even CAUSING them to cheat, I'll let them know in no uncertain terms that that is ridiculous. I don't feel the need to sugar coat it.

But that's not what my objection to this thread was about anyway.


----------



## Healer

jld said:


> Does he realize the risk he is taking by not prioritizing your needs?


In other words "does he realize if he doesn't change his behavior, you will cheat again?"


----------



## Heatherknows

jld said:


> Does he realize the risk he is taking by not prioritizing your needs?


We are working on trying to find some kind of balance. We're both doing our best.


----------



## Locke.Stratos

Heatherknows said:


> I haven't had contact with my cyber boyfriend in about six months. It was a long term cyber affair and it's over. After him I did have inappropriate conversations with a guy on another website and I haven't had contact with him in three months. I did tell my husband about my indiscretions and he isn't happy, doesn't want me to repeat behavior but since it happened online he isn't all that bothered. I'm bothered and don't want to repeat the behavior so I'm here for affair proof maintenance. Since this is a pro-marriage site it's safe. I'm on another relationship site but I don't use it that much at this time. I also use it for affair proof maintenance. I realize my bad behavior can always come back and I need constant reminders to stay on the right path.





Heatherknows said:


> Thanks!
> 
> My husband knows about the two marriage websites I'm on and is OK about it, not thrilled but he knows I'm here for help. The biggest danger is when my husband gets too involved with his family and starts to neglect me. I feel lonely and angry and look for trouble/fun/pleasure in bad places. He knows about this and is trying to be there for me while at the same time taking care of family obligations that are important to him. His work takes him away from me a lot and when he comes home he's tired so when he takes his free time and spends it on his family I do get upset. We don't have children and spending time with extended family members is not what I enjoy. I like doing romantic couple things and bringing the dog places. It's a lifestyle choice.


I feel like the _I was lonely/angry/feeling neglected_ excuse is such a flimsy reason to give to engage in behaviour that can devastate your spouse and your marriage. Is your marriage such a certainty, are you that secure that even if your actions hurt your husband, he won't leave you over them?

I don't often find myself around people who are like this with this mindset. The majority of women I've known tend to be capable, independent and have their own lives and thing(s) going on. My mom was a doctor, my sister is accomplished and ambitious in her industry, my cousins, aunts, other female relatives and in-laws all work and/or have their own lives going on. My grandmothers (both in their ninties) still choose to work even though they don't have to. My parents' friends and siblings who are retired also choose to keep busy somehow. My friends, the women I've been with, all have their own lives and things going on too. Interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something. There's a drive there, a motivation and work ethnic to do something, to do and be more.

I can understand someone who is selfish and entitled with a wanton disregard for their marriage, who just wants what they want and_ f*** everyone else_.. but writing that you realize that your _bad behaviour can always come back_ makes it seem like your actions are the result of factors beyond your control. It speaks to a lack of personal responsibility and accountability on your part.

Someone who is that dependent on another to keep them _entertained_ and happy, who allows themself to be bored and who basically needs another person to take care of them seems very lazy in life and/or is lacks essential life skills.

_Neglect_ is a word that's casually thrown out as a means to "_justify_" adulterous behaviour. To me, neglect is something that a child, teenager, the elderly, disabled, sick, or a pet can claim.. but a mature, grown, capable adult:|. Having your husband _be there for you_ is something that he should do if you like suffer a loss, grave injury, illness or some other terrible misfortune, but to have him _be there for you_ because you're lonely and angry.

I don't mean to minimize your experience, I'm sure to you it's like horrible and the worst thing ever, but this mentality is still just so alien to me no matter how many times I come across it here. It's not the _not doing anything with your time and making the most of it_ part, it's using that as an excuse to involve yourself in adulterous behaviour.

I don't know, this is just so saddening.


----------



## Rookie4

Healer said:


> In real life, "EVERYBODY" is not treated the same. You are treated in turn how you treat others. If you treat people horribly, then are smug and arrogant about it, you are going to get people not treating you the same as if you were respectful and decent.
> 
> And being "attacked" and "abused" is clearly a subjective thing. I do not equate criticism or strong disagreement with abuse or attacks. Name calling? Sure - I agree, not cool. That's why I don't do it. But I also don't feel the need to tippy toe around and kiss people's asses. For example when someone comes on here and blames the people on the internet for not preventing them from cheating, or even CAUSING them to cheat, I'll let them know in no uncertain terms that that is ridiculous. I don't feel the need to sugar coat it.
> 
> But that's not what my objection to this thread was about anyway.


Nope, I guess you didn't get it after all, you clearly believe that you can say anything to a WS and it's all good , because they don't deserve any better. So I'll leave you to your little rants. Have fun.


----------



## Heatherknows

Wolf1974 said:


> This seems a strange reaction from a husband. Is your perception he no longer cares about you? If so have you asked why?


No he cares. I'd like a lifestyle that's more romantic and he has limited time. He tries to make time for me sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. 



bfree said:


> She realizes that sometimes she will be alone as unfortunate as that is. So she has set about finding healthy activities and hobbies that she enjoys. She is involved in our church. Her photography and painting feeds her creative side. She also joined an all female gym where she also takes several classes including yoga and pilates. I would encourage you to find wholesome activities that you enjoy and at the same time have and honest straightforward conversation with your husband about setting up structured dates and joint activities that will bring you closer together.
> 
> And I'll add that if your husband is like me and he sees you pulling away he will not only notice but he'll feel your absence and make stronger efforts to spend more time with you.


I do yoga, pilates and have dedicated myself to retraining a dog we adopted from a shelter in the beginning of Oct. I'm watching every episode of The Dog Whisperer and except for my massive crush on Caesar :surprise: it's been good for our marriage because I have stuff to discuss with my husband that is fun and we can do together. I have a need to spend more romance time with him but we are working on that. 



Maricha75 said:


> Heather, you seem to see TAM as a safe place because it is a marriage forum. You do, unfortunately, have to remain vigilant because there ARE predators who will come here, looking for vulnerable people to prey on. It happens. It HAS happened, a few times, on here. Just be careful. If in question, talk to a moderator or someone you can trust. Given the nature of your affair, I would suggest a woman, rather than a man, to discuss any concerns.


That is why I deactivated my PM's. I received one inappropriate PM, didn't answer and figured I don't need PM access here. 





jld said:


> Heather, it is empowering to realize we can stand on our own, emotionally and psychologically independent of our husbands, if need be.
> 
> Do you feel you can do this?
> 
> If not, what do you think could get you there?


I want a more romantic lifestyle and that isn't something I can do without my husband. I do admit to being a bit needy and emotionally unbalanced at times but I am working of becoming more stable.


----------



## Healer

Locke.Stratos said:


> I feel like the _I was lonely/angry/feeling neglected_ excuse is such a flimsy reason to give to engage in behaviour that can devastate your spouse and your marriage. Is your marriage such a certainty, are you that secure that even if your actions hurt your husband, he won't leave you over them?
> 
> I don't often find myself around people who are like this with this mindset. The majority of women I've known tend to be capable, independent and have their own lives and thing(s) going on. My mom was a doctor, my sister is accomplished and ambitious in her industry, my cousins, aunts, other female relatives and in-laws all work and/or have their own lives going on. My grandmothers (both in their ninties) still choose to work even though they don't have to. My parents' friends and siblings who are retired also choose to keep busy somehow. My friends, the women I've been with, all have their own lives and things going on too. Interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something. There's a drive there, a motivation and work ethnic to do something, to do and be more.
> 
> I can understand someone who is selfish and entitled with a wanton disregard for their marriage, who just wants what they want and_ f*** everyone else_.. but writing that you realize that your _bad behaviour can always come back_ makes it seem like your actions are the result of factors beyond your control. It speaks to a lack of personal responsibility and accountability on your part.
> 
> Someone who is that dependent on another to keep them _entertained_ and happy, who allows themself to be bored and who basically needs another person to take care of them seems very lazy in life and/or is lacks essential life skills.
> 
> _Neglect_ is a word that's casually thrown out as a means to "_justify_" adulterous behaviour. To me, neglect is something that a child, teenager, the elderly, disabled, sick, or a pet can claim.. but a mature, grown, capable adult:|. Having your husband _be there for you_ is something that he should do if you like suffer a loss, grave injury, illness or some other terrible misfortune, but to have him _be there for you_ because you're lonely and angry.
> 
> I don't mean to minimize your experience, I'm sure to you it's like horrible and the worst thing ever, but this mentality is still just so alien to me no matter how many times I come across it here. It's not the _not doing anything with your time and making the most of it_ part, it's using that as an excuse to involve yourself in adulterous behaviour.
> 
> I don't know, this is just so saddening.


Exactly. To me, that's a very...un-adult way to look at life. That's where the "Does he realize the risk he is taking by not prioritizing your needs?" attitude comes from. It's saying "if you don't give me what I want, when I want it, I will cheat on you, and you will have had it coming".

Same with the "if things don't go my way this may happen to me again" (cheating). Some people talk about "falling prey to" or "put in a situation where" or "the circumstances made me vulnerable to".

Don't buy that for one second.


----------



## Rookie4

Locke.Stratos said:


> I feel like the _I was lonely/angry/feeling neglected_ excuse is such a flimsy reason to give to engage in behaviour that can devastate your spouse and your marriage. Is your marriage such a certainty, are you that secure that even if your actions hurt your husband, he won't leave you over them?
> 
> I don't often find myself around people who are like this with this mindset. The majority of women I've known tend to be capable, independent and have their own lives and thing(s) going on. My mom was a doctor, my sister is accomplished and ambitious in her industry, my cousins, aunts, other female relatives and in-laws all work and/or have their own lives going on. My grandmothers (both in their ninties) still choose to work even though they don't have to. My parents' friends and siblings who are retired also choose to keep busy somehow. My friends, the women I've been with, all have their own lives and things going on too. Interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something. There's a drive there, a motivation and work ethnic to do something, to do and be more.
> 
> I can understand someone who is selfish and entitled with a wanton disregard for their marriage, who just wants what they want and_ f*** everyone else_.. but writing that you realize that your _bad behaviour can always come back_ makes it seem like your actions are the result of factors beyond your control. It speaks to a lack of personal responsibility and accountability on your part.
> 
> Someone who is that dependent on another to keep them _entertained_ and happy, who allows themself to be bored and who basically needs another person to take care of them seems very lazy in life and/or is lacks essential life skills.
> 
> _Neglect_ is a word that's casually thrown out as a means to "_justify_" adulterous behaviour. To me, neglect is something that a child, teenager, the elderly, disabled, sick, or a pet can claim.. but a mature, grown, capable adult:|. Having your husband _be there for you_ is something that he should do if you like suffer a loss, grave injury, illness or some other terrible misfortune, but to have him _be there for you_ because you're lonely and angry.
> 
> I don't mean to minimize your experience, I'm sure to you it's like horrible and the worst thing ever, but this mentality is still just so alien to me no matter how many times I come across it here. It's not the _not doing anything with your time and making the most of it_ part, it's using that as an excuse to involve yourself in adulterous behaviour.
> 
> I don't know, this is just so saddening.


Perhaps, if you offered some positive advice, instead of enumerating Heatherknows faults, it would cheer you up?


----------



## Heatherknows

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if you offered some positive advice, instead of enumerating Heatherknows faults, it would cheer you up?


I've learned to ignore people like that. If I answer he will come back with something nasty. The aggressive posts like those usually come from men who've been cheated on and want to use me as a punching bag to get their revenge on. Talking to them is a waste of my time.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, I guess you didn't get it after all, you clearly believe that you can say anything to a WS and it's all good , because they don't deserve any better. So I'll leave you to your little rants. Have fun.


Reading comprehension 101. You need it. Nowhere have I stated that I can "say anything to a WS and it's all good". What I DID say (please reread, slowly this time) is this:

*In real life, "EVERYBODY" is not treated the same. You are treated in turn how you treat others. If you treat people horribly, then are smug and arrogant about it, you are going to get people not treating you the same as if you were respectful and decent.

And being "attacked" and "abused" is clearly a subjective thing. I do not equate criticism or strong disagreement with abuse or attacks. Name calling? Sure - I agree, not cool. That's why I don't do it. But I also don't feel the need to tippy toe around and kiss people's asses.*

You are treated how you treat people, and that being critical of certain actions and strongly disagreeing with someone isn't abuse.

See, when I bust you on an outright lie, I can quote you and prove it. You pull stuff out of the air I never even sort of said. Keep trying.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if you offered some positive advice, instead of enumerating Heatherknows faults, it would cheer you up?


I think a reality check is very positive advice. Again, you equate not kissing someone's ass to being abusive. But only you, and a very few WS who come here expecting nothing but props and sweet nothings think that way. Nobody here is being abusive, or bullying or "spitting venom". Are you perhaps hallucinating?


----------



## Rookie4

My last attempt at reasonable communication. It is quite simple , Healer, when you are rude and offensive, I will not interact with you , when you are reasonable, I will. It is completely up to you. I will give you one piece of advice, I would refrain from calling posters liars, if I were you.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> I've learned to ignore people like that. If I answer he will come back with something nasty. The aggressive posts like those usually come from men who've been cheated on and want to use me as a punching bag to get their revenge on. Talking to them is a waste of my time.


Oh dear. You really, really need to get over yourself. He wasn't "nasty" at all, and NOBODY here has "used you as a punching bag". And "get their revenge on"? Lol. Come on. Let's not get silly.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> My last attempt at reasonable communication. It is quite simple , Healer, when you are rude and offensive, I will not interact with you , when you are reasonable, I will. It is completely up to you. I will give you one piece of advice, I would refrain from calling posters liars, if I were you.


I busted you outright lying in this very thread. And you are not me. I can repost the quotes I used previously to prove it again, if you like? 

Again - busting someone lying, and being critical of their behavior does not equate to being "rude and offensive". You may not like what you hear, but that doesn't been you're being abused.

You ceased "reasonable communication" (any communication, actually) because you challenged me to show where you had blameshifted to the BS. I did just that - and you subsequently buried your head in the sand. Everyone saw it.


----------



## Heatherknows

Healer said:


> Oh dear. You really, really need to get over yourself. He wasn't "nasty" at all, and NOBODY here has "used you as a punching bag". And "get their revenge on"? Lol. Come on. Let's not get silly.


OK Healer I will give you a chance to have a normal conversation. If you respond with a nasty comment I will put you in the "do not talk to" pile. I understand you don't agree/like my way of thinking. You don't need to because you aren't married to me. You have made a point of saying you don't agree with my thinking. OK. Now that you've said it you won't have to say it again.


----------



## Healer

Heatherknows said:


> OK Healer I will give you a chance to have a normal conversation. If you respond with a nasty comment I will put you in the "do not talk to" pile. I understand you don't agree/like my way of thinking. You don't need to because you aren't married to me. You have made a point of saying you don't agree with my thinking. OK. Now that you've said it you won't have to say it again.


For you, clearly "nasty" = "something I don't want to hear". Again, life doesn't work that way.

And when I see you accuse someone of being "nasty" and "using you as a punching bag for revenge"...sorry, I've gotta pipe up on that, because it was accusatory and TOTALLY untrue. 



Heatherknows said:


> The aggressive posts like those *usually come from men who've been cheated on* and *want to use me as a punching bag to get their revenge on*. Talking to them is a waste of my time.


See what you did there? Now _that_ is insulting and nasty.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> I don't really care about a poster's viewpoint. As long as they express it in a friendly and courteous manner, it's all good.


Not what I have seen. 

And before you start that's not just about you but others as well. When those who want to help and hear from WS will, at times, put down any BS who has a conflicting opinion. What's comical, and has been for years here, is when the WS says something about accountability it's accepted. When a BS says same thing it's called hate mongering. 

Gotta give the respect to get it and that sometimes means just saying I don't agree with you but accept you have a different viewpoint and your right to share it.


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> Not what I have seen.
> 
> And before you start that's not just about you but others as well. When those who want to help and hear from WS will, at times, put down any BS who has a conflicting opinion. What's comical, and has been for years here, is when the WS says something about accountability it's accepted. When a BS says same thing it's called hate mongering.
> 
> Gotta give the respect to get it and that sometimes means just saying I don't agree with you but accept you have a different viewpoint and your right to share it.


Indeed. "I don't care about a poster's viewpoint"...yet what is this thread about?


----------



## Truthseeker1




----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> Not what I have seen.
> 
> And before you start that's not just about you but others as well. When those who want to help and hear from WS will, at times, put down any BS who has a conflicting opinion. What's comical, and has been for years here, is when the WS says something about accountability it's accepted. When a BS says same thing it's called hate mongering.
> 
> Gotta give the respect to get it and that sometimes means just saying I don't agree with you but accept you have a different viewpoint and your right to share it.


Every poster has a right to his/her opinion, but they do not have a right to ridicule, insult, accuse, and berate. I do not agree with you a lot of the time, but in the main, you don't call posters names, and you try to give positive advice, instead of constantly beating them over the head, with their faults. Heather knows came here for help, not to be browbeaten and called silly. PLus, as I have pointed out, the number of BS posters are a great many more than the few WS posters, yet there seems to be some Phantom WS conspiracy which is being cruel to the BS's. I would really like to know where all of these WS?'s are?


----------



## Wolf1974

Heatherknows said:


> I've learned to ignore people like that. If I answer he will come back with something nasty. The aggressive posts like those *usually come from men who've been cheated on and want to use me as a punching bag to get their revenge on. Talking to them is a waste of my time*.


This is honestly a bit of a cop out. I have been cheated on and I don't treat any WS a a punching bag nor do I assume all women cheat just because some do. 

Being passionate about saying what your doing is wrong and treating you like a punching bag is two different things. Anything I have done In a thread with a WS is to hopefully show how it feels to the WS spouse when you cheat because that is something I have lived through. 

Now in your case I don't have much advice. I can't honestly relate to your situation or your husband, If my wife had 2 emotional affairs I would be pissed beyond belief and be either ending the marriage or in counseling to get it fixed ASAP. While I don't agree that you have a right to cheat I do understand why you would be unsatisfied in your marriage.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Every poster has a right to his/her opinion, but they do not have a right to ridicule, insult, accuse, and berate. I do not agree with you a lot of the time, but in the main, you don't call posters names, and you try to give positive advice, instead of constantly beating them over the head, with their faults. Heather knows came here for help, not to be browbeaten and called silly. PLus, as I have pointed out, the number of BS posters are a great many more than the few WS posters, yet there seems to be some Phantom WS conspiracy which is being cruel to the BS's.* I would really like to know where all of these WS?'s are?*


*
*

Not a conspiracy but not surprised you don't believe it either. 

Next time a get an insulting PM I will forward it to you instead of deleting it.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Every poster has a right to his/her opinion, but they do not have a right to ridicule, insult, accuse, and berate. I do not agree with you a lot of the time, but in the main, you don't call posters names, and you try to give positive advice, instead of constantly beating them over the head, with their faults. Heather knows came here for help, not to be browbeaten and called silly. PLus, as I have pointed out, the number of BS posters are a great many more than the few WS posters, yet there seems to be some Phantom WS conspiracy which is being cruel to the BS's. I would really like to know where all of these WS?'s are?


OMG _silly_??!! You're right, that was vicious.

Now let's look at this realistically. She accused a poster, and "men who've been cheated on" of using her as "punching bag for their revenge" and that "Talking to them is a waste of my time." That was an accusatory, blanket statement that is utterly insulting to "men who have been cheated on". But I suppose I really got _my_ revenge by calling her "silly". The humanity!!!


----------



## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> [/B]
> 
> Not a conspiracy but not surprised you don't believe it either.
> 
> Next time a get an insulting PM I will forward it to you instead of deleting it.


Please do. I would be very interested. For the record, I don't agree with Heatherknows EA, either. I don't agree with ANY affair. But how can we find out about her frame of mind, if we don't try to keep her actively posting? And how can she express her pov, if she is constantly defending herself from attacks?


----------



## Heatherknows

Truthseeker1 said:


>


Totally.:surprise::frown2::nerd:


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Every poster has a right to his/her opinion, but they do not have a right to ridicule, insult, accuse, and berate. I do not agree with you a lot of the time, but in the main, you don't call posters names, and you try to give positive advice, instead of constantly beating them over the head, with their faults. Heather knows came here for help, not to be browbeaten and called silly. PLus, as I have pointed out, the number of BS posters are a great many more than the few WS posters, yet there seems to be some Phantom WS conspiracy which is being cruel to the BS's. I would really like to know where all of these WS?'s are?


The whole "phantom" thing was actually my call out to you - remember? Of course you never answered. Where are the all abusive, cruel, insulting BS posts you mention in this thread? And sorry, but calling someone's post "silly" doesn't fall into that category.


----------



## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Please do. I would be very interested. For the record, I don't agree with Heatherknows EA, either. I don't agree with ANY affair. But how can we find out about her frame of mind, if we don't try to keep her actively posting? And how can she express her pov, if she is constantly defending herself from attacks?


She is not being attacked. Once again - critical analysis of her actions and a disagreement of her actions are not attacks.


----------



## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Please do. I would be very interested. For the record, I don't agree with Heatherknows EA, either. I don't agree with ANY affair. But how can we find out about her frame of mind, if we don't try to keep her actively posting? And how can she express her pov, if she is constantly defending herself from attacks?



The last one , and most common, is that I deserved to get cheated on. Most BS I know of here have had this one once or twice either in open forum or PM.

As far as heather goes From what attacks? Saying that she is wrong to have affairs when other options are present aren't attacks they are facts..

I don't see her asking for much advice. Maybe I missed it a few pages back. She seems to recognize her issue as being needy and working to deal with it. Also seems to recognize she needs to fix some things in marriage along With husband. Seems to me like she is on the right track to turn things around if she chooses too. I don't see attacks


----------



## Healer

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't see attacks


Except for the whole "silly" affront.


----------



## bfree

Heatherknows said:


> No he cares. I'd like a lifestyle that's more romantic and he has limited time. He tries to make time for me sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I do yoga, pilates and have dedicated myself to retraining a dog we adopted from a shelter in the beginning of Oct. I'm watching every episode of The Dog Whisperer and except for my massive crush on Caesar :surprise: it's been good for our marriage because I have stuff to discuss with my husband that is fun and we can do together. I have a need to spend more romance time with him but we are working on that.
> 
> 
> That is why I deactivated my PM's. I received one inappropriate PM, didn't answer and figured I don't need PM access here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want a more romantic lifestyle and that isn't something I can do without my husband. I do admit to being a bit needy and emotionally unbalanced at times but I am working of becoming more stable.


Once when I was all in my own head and engrossed in work related thoughts I too began to neglect the romantic portion of my marriage. My wife knew I was dealing with stress at work so she dropped subtle hints which of course went completely unnoticed by me. So she proceeded to do something romantic for me. She sent a box of cigars along with a card containing a few sexual peccadillos. It's a good thing I finally got the hint because she said her next idea was to come to my office dressed only in a raincoat. Point is if your husband is being blockheaded like I was take matters into your own hands and initiate the romance.


----------



## Wolf1974

bfree said:


> Once when I was all in my own head and engrossed in work related thoughts I too began to neglect the romantic portion of my marriage. My wife knew I was dealing with stress at work so she dropped subtle hints which of course went completely unnoticed by me. So she proceeded to do something romantic for me. She sent a box of cigars along with a card containing a few sexual peccadillos. It's a good thing I finally got the hint because she said *her next idea was to come to my office dressed only in a raincoat.* Point is if your husband is being blockheaded like I was take matters into your own hands and initiate the romance.


you should have held out a little longer :smile2:

J/k


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## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> The last one , and most common, is that I deserved to get cheated on. Most BS I know of here have had this one once or twice either in open forum or PM.
> 
> As far as heather goes From what attacks? Saying that she is wrong to have affairs when other options are present aren't attacks they are facts..
> 
> I don't see her asking for much advice. Maybe I missed it a few pages back. She seems to recognize her issue as being needy and working to deal with it. Also seems to recognize she needs to fix some things in marriage along With husband. Seems to me like she is on the right track to turn things around if she chooses too. I don't see attacks


Then you approve of the ridicule and name calling? I don't see calling her "silly' is the same as telling her she was wrong to have an affair. It wasn't said to help her , in any way, it was said out of rancor and to be unpleasant.


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## Healer

The problem is that rookie defines any sort of disagreement, critical analysis, or anything but blowing kisses and chocolate covered sweet nothings as "abusive" and "attacking".

Look man, you're never going to get people to stop disagreeing, being critical in certain situations and wholeheartedly disagreeing. It will never happen. Nobody is being abused or attacked or having "venom" spit at them here, even though you keep claiming that to be the case. If you consider calling someone's post "silly" as abusive, or an attack, then I don't think anyone can help you. But I know you know it's not. I know you love to start threads where you profess to defending the underdog - but that's not what this (or any of your other clone threads) is. If someone is genuinely being attacked or abused or called names (excluding "silly"), that offending post will be removed or the offending poster will be banned, or both.

If you see someone being abused or attacked or threatened or whatever, do us all a favor and report it - don't start a whole new thread about it.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Once when I was all in my own head and engrossed in work related thoughts I too began to neglect the romantic portion of my marriage. My wife knew I was dealing with stress at work so she dropped subtle hints which of course went completely unnoticed by me. So she proceeded to do something romantic for me. She sent a box of cigars along with a card containing a few sexual peccadillos. It's a good thing I finally got the hint because she said her next idea was to come to my office dressed only in a raincoat. Point is if your husband is being blockheaded like I was take matters into your own hands and initiate the romance.


Isn't a "peccadillo" a cross between a Peccary and an Armadillo? If so , I want no part of them. I already have armadillos and the little bastards dig faster than a skidloader.


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## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Then you approve of the ridicule and name calling? I don't see calling her "silly' is the same as telling her she was wrong to have an affair. It wasn't said to help her , in any way, it was said out of rancor and to be unpleasant.


It was said because her comment that was insulting to "men who have been cheated on" for "using her as a punching bag for revenge" was, in fact, very, very silly.

If you can't see the "rancor" and "unpleasantness" (not to mention utterly erroneous) of her comments, but think that "silly" is vicious, then I don't think we can help you.


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## Rookie4

bfree said:


> Once when I was all in my own head and engrossed in work related thoughts I too began to neglect the romantic portion of my marriage. My wife knew I was dealing with stress at work so she dropped subtle hints which of course went completely unnoticed by me. So she proceeded to do something romantic for me. She sent a box of cigars along with a card containing a few sexual peccadillos. It's a good thing I finally got the hint because she said her next idea was to come to my office dressed only in a raincoat. Point is if your husband is being blockheaded like I was take matters into your own hands and initiate the romance.


I was just joking , before. But this is actually a very positive idea. Sometimes we all get consumed by our jobs, and neglect our personal lives. Now that Heather has come here, and acknowledges her issues, perhaps she can be more proactive in her marriage, and initiate the romance , instead of waiting for her husband to do so. This will go a long way to improving her self image, thus make her a more reliable partner.


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## Locke.Stratos

Heatherknows said:


> I've learned to ignore people like that. If I answer he will come back with something nasty. The aggressive posts like those usually come from men who've been cheated on and want to use me as a punching bag to get their revenge on. Talking to them is a waste of my time.


That seriously wasn't intended to be aggressive, I even edited out sections afterwards that I felt would come across as such.

Tone is hard to convey in a written message, so if there's something specific I wrote that you feel constitutes as intentional aggression and me using you as a _punching bag to get revenge_, you're more than welcome to point it out, a quote of those parts of my post would be useful. And your assumptions about me are waaaaaayyy off, as in completely and entirely.

It's fine though, I understand your reaction. Most people (myself included) aren't receptive to observations about themselves that fall short of praise and become defensive. Feel free to ignore away, though more insight and information would be useful to understand and know how you came to think how you do and be the way that you are. Writing that you get angry over your husband taking care of his familial obligations or that you feel lonely & get angry isn't really much to go on.

Honestly, this mindest perplexes me. I don't know anyone like this. I have close friends and relatives who have been unfaithful, and none of them have ever used being _bored_ or _feeling neglected_ as a reason for their behaviour.

Maybe I'm off on this but it seems that you're a housewife. I've never met or known a housewife. Even the women I know whose husbands are ridiculously wealthy and don't have to work, do, real estate, business, teaching, charities, something.

However, on these forums it seems almost a given that if someone is a housewife, they're likely to engage in infidelity due to _boredem_ and _neglect_ and that's hard for me to comprehend in this world full of so many things.



Rookie4 said:


> Perhaps, if you offered some positive advice, instead of enumerating Heatherknows faults, it would cheer you up?


I didn't mention any faults with regard to *Heather*. I addressed what she wrote in the posts I quoted. I used and refered to words and sentences that she used.

And as for advice, I didn't think that it had to be implicitly pointed out since it's in my post, but she could involve herself in _interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something_, so that she doesn't engage in inappropriate behaviour with other men when she feels resentful, lonely and angry that her husband isn't attending to her.

She should find something to do, something that _drives_ and _motivates_, rather than put the responsibilty of her entire life and happiness on her husband. That's so unfair and too much to expect of someone.


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## Healer

Locke.Stratos said:


> That seriously wasn't intended to be aggressive, I even edited out sections afterwards that I felt would come across as such.
> 
> Tone is hard to convey in a written message, so if there's something specific I wrote that you feel constitutes as intentional aggression and me using you as a _punching bag to get revenge_, you're more than welcome to point it out, a quote of those parts of my post would be useful. And your assumptions about me are waaaaaayyy off, as in completely and entirely.
> 
> It's fine though, I understand your reaction. Most people (myself included) aren't receptive to observations about themselves that fall short of praise and become defensive. Feel free to ignore away, though more insight and information would be useful to understand and know how you came to think how you do and be the way that you are. Writing that you get angry over your husband taking care of his familial obligations or that you feel lonely & get angry isn't really much to go on.
> 
> Honestly, this mindest perplexes me. I don't know anyone like this. I have close friends and relatives who have been unfaithful, and none of them have ever used being _bored_ or _feeling neglected_ as a reason for their behaviour.
> 
> Maybe I'm off on this but it seems that you're a housewife. I've never met or known a housewife. Even the women I know whose husbands are ridiculously wealthy and don't have to work, do, real estate, business, teaching, charities, something.
> 
> However, on these forums it seems almost a given that if someone is a housewife, they're likely to engage in infidelity due to _boredem_ and _neglect_ and that's hard for me to comprehend in this world full of so many things.
> 
> 
> I didn't mention any faults with regard to *Heather*. I addressed what she wrote in the posts I quoted. I used and refered to words and sentences that she used.
> 
> And as for advice, I didn't think that it had to be implicitly pointed out since it's in my post, but she could involve herself in _interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something_, so that she doesn't engage in inappropriate behaviour with other men when she feels resentful, lonely and angry that her husband isn't attending to her.
> 
> She should find something to do, something that _drives_ and _motivates_, rather than put the responsibilty of her entire life and happiness on her husband. That's so unfair and too much to expect of someone.


I too am very curious what about your post led her (and presumably rookie) to state that you used her as a "punching bag for revenge". I think this is a clear and excellent example of what rookie calls abusive and attacking and whatever else. You were none of those things in your post, yet you were, all at once, shoved into the (rather unflattering) category of "husbands who have been cheated on", used a WS as a "Punching bag" and for the reason of "revenge". 

You didn't shower her with compliments or agree with her cheating, therefore you were being abusive.


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## Rookie4

Locke.Stratos said:


> That seriously wasn't intended to be aggressive, I even edited out sections afterwards that I felt would come across as such.
> 
> Tone is hard to convey in a written message, so if there's something specific I wrote that you feel constitutes as intentional aggression and me using you as a _punching bag to get revenge_, you're more than welcome to point it out, a quote of those parts of my post would be useful. And your assumptions about me are waaaaaayyy off, as in completely and entirely.
> 
> It's fine though, I understand your reaction. Most people (myself included) aren't receptive to observations about themselves that fall short of praise and become defensive. Feel free to ignore away, though more insight and information would be useful to understand and know how you came to think how you do and be the way that you are. Writing that you get angry over your husband taking care of his familial obligations or that you feel lonely & get angry isn't really much to go on.
> 
> Honestly, this mindest perplexes me. I don't know anyone like this. I have close friends and relatives who have been unfaithful, and none of them have ever used being _bored_ or _feeling neglected_ as a reason for their behaviour.
> 
> Maybe I'm off on this but it seems that you're a housewife. I've never met or known a housewife. Even the women I know whose husbands are ridiculously wealthy and don't have to work, do, real estate, business, teaching, charities, something.
> 
> However, on these forums it seems almost a given that if someone is a housewife, they're likely to engage in infidelity due to _boredem_ and _neglect_ and that's hard for me to comprehend in this world full of so many things.
> 
> 
> I didn't mention any faults with regard to *Heather*. I addressed what she wrote in the posts I quoted. I used and refered to words and sentences that she used.
> 
> And as for advice, I didn't think that it had to be implicitly pointed out since it's in my post, but she could involve herself in _interests, hobbies, studies, work, ambitious endeavours, something_, so that she doesn't engage in inappropriate behaviour with other men when she feels resentful, lonely and angry that her husband isn't attending to her.
> 
> She should find something to do, something that _drives_ and _motivates_, rather than put the responsibilty of her entire life and happiness on her husband. That's so unfair and too much to expect of someone.


Good post


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Then you approve of the ridicule and name calling? I don't see calling her "silly' is the same as telling her she was wrong to have an affair. It wasn't said to help her , in any way, it was said out of rancor and to be unpleasant.


More rhetoric. I don't approve of name calling and I don't see how saying a post is silly or something makes no sense is attacking or belittling at all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rookie4

Wolf1974 said:


> More rhetoric. I don't approve of name calling and I don't see how saying a post is silly or something makes no sense is attacking or belittling at all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Agree to disagree, then.


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## Spotthedeaddog

> e: A warning
> Quote:
> Posted by Healer
> Originally Posted by Heatherknows
> OK Healer I will give you a chance to have a normal conversation. If you respond with a nasty comment I will put you in the "do not talk to" pile.
> 
> * I understand you don't agree/like my way of thinking. You don't need to because you aren't married to me.
> *
> 
> You have made a point of saying you don't agree with my thinking. OK. Now that you've said it you won't have to say it again.
> *For you, clearly "nasty" = "something I don't want to hear". Again, life doesn't work that way.*
> 
> And when I see you accuse someone of being "nasty" and "using you as a punching bag for revenge"...sorry, I've gotta pipe up on that, because it was accusatory and TOTALLY untrue.


Sorry for the Thread Tangent

See bolded bits.

WTF!?

If you're married you _have_ to agree? :surprise:


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## Healer

Rookie4 said:


> Agree to disagree, then.


Dude there's no need to attack. ;-)


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## Wolf1974

Rookie4 said:


> Agree to disagree, then.


Which we have. Repeatedly. I found many things you did far more disrespectful than any of that

So then the point should be your viewpoint on what you see as disrespectful doesn't match up to everyone else's. So if you see actual name calling report it. And if not let other people determine for themselves what is disrespectful or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog

Dude007 said:


> I hate to say that some people cheat for the simple reasons Heather hit on. Boredom, Depression, stress of life and family. Its an escape and having anyone pursue you when you have been married a decade plus is very enticing. It just seems like an eternity since someone really wanted you. Is that worth blowing up your marriage and life sky high? NO, but it happens A LOT as FEELINGS overcome LOGIC. The damage to the WS is unimaginable, they are most likely forever broken to some extent. Its just to messy what goes on in their mind.


You missed the reason of cheating that often home life/career life lacks intimate emotional sharing.
With the day to day struggle (especially with children to wrangle, who are not goal driven career folk  ) there is little personal space left for "just ourselves" and "open intimate time with our partner".

Intimate time emotional time I'm grouping together the two sides of HN/HN. For her it is relax and feel supported in her own space, when she feels happy with herself, and same for him. And in both cases there is a very real, and often different, level of physical intimacy and physical stimulation. This is a massively importance part of our physical and mental herd animal being - to deny it with result in unhealthy psychosis or a way to satisfy that need. Often it's not sort out, but like a vitamin, is so stimulating, when we find what we have been missing.


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## pidge70

So, to the original point of this thread.....I personally, as a WS, do not believe TAM needs a sub forum specifically for cheaters. It seems to me that most of these WS's Rookie is referring to that get beat up, generally end up being troll posts. Sooooooo, many trolls coming here to stir the pot. I'm not going to lie, I find it somewhat amusing when the "crowd" shows up and berates the bad, non remorseful cheater. 

A majority of the BS's on here would love to believe that all of us WS's are just horrible people. That's what makes it easy for some bored troll to come along and rile things up. They don't care what is being said to them. The BS's are nothing but entertainment.

I've been attacked on here, a certain poster who thank God left this forum, tried to make my life miserable. I deleted my original thread because of said poster. Kinda sad, as I had received a lot of great advice from BS's who wanted to help me be a better person. 

By all means though, keep this circus going. Nothing will be resolved and if Rookie doesn't delete this thread, a mod will ultimately lock it.


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## Healer

pidge70 said:


> So, to the original point of this thread.....I personally, as a WS, do not believe TAM needs a sub forum specifically for cheaters. It seems to me that most of these WS's Rookie is referring to that get beat up, generally end up being troll posts. Sooooooo, many trolls coming here to stir the pot. I'm not going to lie, I find it somewhat amusing when the "crowd" shows up and berates the bad, non remorseful cheater.
> 
> A majority of the BS's on here would love to believe that all of us WS's are just horrible people. That's what makes it easy for some bored troll to come along and rile things up. They don't care what is being said to them. The BS's are nothing but entertainment.
> 
> I've been attacked on here, a certain poster who thank God left this forum, tried to make my life miserable. I deleted my original thread because of said poster. Kinda sad, as I had received a lot of great advice from BS's who wanted to help me be a better person.
> 
> By all means though, keep this circus going. Nothing will be resolved and if Rookie doesn't delete this thread, a mod will ultimately lock it.


Don't be silly. ;-)

That sucks you had to delete your thread. I for one am glad you're still with us, at least. :toast:


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## pidge70

Healer said:


> Don't be silly. ;-)
> 
> That sucks you had to delete your thread. I for one am glad you're still with us, at least. :toast:


Why must you attack me? 

Seriously though, thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

Heatherknows,

You keep talking in general terms about your husband spending a lot of time with his family obligations. It's impossible for anyone here to know what that actually means. So I have some questions.

How many hours a week does your husband spend at work?

How many hours a week does he spend on "family obligations"?

How many hours a week does he spend with you, just you doing things together?


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## EleGirl

Rookie4 said:


> Heather, rather than all of us taking this thread any further off topic, do you have a thread of your own , where we can better address your concerns?


I agree that Heather should make a thread of her own.


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## pidge70

Rookie4 said:


> Nope, I don't think so. I really don't have to, because you and some of the others are doing it for me. By your weak attempts at ridicule, you are simply proving my point about the rude and offensive behavior of some of the posters, here. So keep it coming , grin2: I'm enjoying the performance.


If you feel I'm being rude and offensive, please....report it. But first, maybe you should try hearing my heart and look past my words. I mean, it says a lot more about you then it does me that you feel this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pluto2

Heatherknows said:


> Not really. 10 out of 10 times when I receive a long post telling me what a terrible person I am it's from a man who has been cheated on.


Well then, allow me to change your running stats. I will however address this on your thread.


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