# She refuses to attend my gay sister's wedding.....



## needalittlehelp

HELP! We are going through rough times. To make a really long story short, I am considering divorce.

I approached my wife twice before with the suggestion of counseling and was turned down both times. 

Recently, I told her I was contemplating divorce and told her we needed to go to counseling or it was over. She agreed and we have been 5 times so far. 

We have the typical ups and downs of marriage, that I know will exist with any marriage, but we also have a unique situation.

We own a small business and work together EVERY DAY! This is killing our marriage and I suggested that she, the one with a degree and killer resume, should find a job to not only help supplement our income, but give us some much needed space.

She refuses and rather than get a job, she pulled money out of her IRA, she's not 59 1/2, and bought some time.

Our business is 3 years old and doing well, but it's not making enough $ to support itself and our family. Hence, me asking her to help out and get a job, hopefully with benefits.

Soooooo, I have been thinking about divorce or if I married the right person for about 2 years now and we have been actively discussing divorce/marriage for about 2 months now with counseling. 

Here's what could be the last straw. 

My sister is gay and I love her. My wife is what I call a "super Catholic" and doesn't agree with my sister's way of life. 

I get it, and I'm a Catholic as well. But here's the deal. My sister is getting married, no date set yet, and when I told my wife we should attend and that our daughters will probably be asked to be flower girls, etc. she FLAT OUT REFUSED!

She said she doesn't support their marriage and she and the kids will not go period.

This was two days ago. And I told her this would cause a major s#@$ storm with my family and they won't forget it. 

She told me that they would just have to understand "our" stance on the subject and accept the fact that we won't attend or support the marriage. 

THIS IS CRAZY! I mean, sometimes you have to bite your tongue and be a grownup and show up. Put on your fake smile if you need to and let's get through this thing together. It's not that big of a deal and it's FAMILY!

Last night, she was asking specific questions about dates, my involvement, etc. and kept asking me how "I" was going to make it down to the wedding. We're a little short on $$$. There was not talk of "we" or "me and the girls."

So, this could be the last straw. This could be the catalyst for divorce and I need some help.

I'm emotional and want other opinions on the subject so I can make a good decision regardless of my feelings.

PLEASE CHIME IN :crying::crying::crying:


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## ConanHub

The other issues aside, I'm with your wife about the gay wedding.

I wouldn't attend either and wouldn't want my children to attend.

If you believe something is wrong, you don't endorse it even if you love someone.

She believes it to be a sinful act. You desire her to partake and endorse, by her presence and the involvement of your children, in a sinful ceremony.

If that is your last straw, stop talking and start divorcing.

You two have incompatible belief systems.

Stop trying to manipulate and force her to defy her beliefs and who she is.

You find her stance disgusting and she yours.

I would divorce you over this issue if I were her.

You are too different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Left arm optimistic

I think you should raise this wedding issue in front of your counsellor so your wife is forced to confront her offensive, childish and (from perspective of your and your kids relationship with the rest of your family) damaging stance in front of someone detached and objective.

Is your wife hoping that your kids never find out that there are homosexual people in the world? Or is the aim that they be viewed as such low lives that nobody your kids know or love could possibly fall into such a group?


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## Left arm optimistic

As a compromise - if your wife really insists on remaining in a world of 19th century morality, she can skip it and you take your kids. Let them grow up seeing the realities of the world and allowing them to form their own moral judgements.


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## unbelievable

You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with. Your wife has the same. If you want to go to the wedding, go. If your wife feels that her attendance would be offensive to God, she should not attend. If you were raised Catholic I expect your family members have all met people of varying degrees of religious commitment. They will understand and piss on them if they don't. Your primary loyalty is to your wife. If they disrespect her they disrespect you. If you wish to end this marriage then you should end it. If there is still any part of you that wants to make it work you need to quit talking about divorce. A man who frequently speaks of divorce offers zero security to a woman. If I were getting married, I would not want anyone attending against their will. 

My wife and I are two different people. I have my own moral convictions and some don't make sense to her. She has her's and some don't make a lot of sense to me. She would never force me to act contrary to mine and I will never force her to behave contrary to her's. To do so would be to disrespect her as a person and nobody can feel loved and disrespected at the same time. Even when our nation faces serious threats and we are at war, we don't force complete strangers to fight if it violates their moral convictions. Hasn't your wife earned the right to be a conscientious objector for this wedding? Is someone going to die if she doesn't show up? I assume the wedding will proceed in her absence and this couple will get married either way. Life will continue, the sun will rise, the birds will sing, some family members might talk ugly for a time but those folks would probably be gossiping about something anyway and the target of their ire will change when new family drama appears. You are running a struggling business and your marriage is about to fail. You have much bigger fish to fry than worrying about someone else's wedding or what Uncle Frank thinks about your wife.


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## 225985

@ConanHub is right, IMO. Just like him, "The other issues aside, I'm with your wife about the gay wedding" . A person's religion is primary to their core beliefs. You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy". You do not "bite your tongue" on major issues like this. You want it YOUR way. YOU are the one not understanding your WIFE's beliefs and you are putting your sister before your wife. And then you wonder why your marriage is failing.


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## threelittlestars

Im a supporter of Gay marriage, My mom worked at OHSU when i was a kid in the nineties and there were MANY lesbian couples in the medical field. I am good friend with a few of my moms co workers and though I'm not a lesbian I'm also not religious and the couples i knew are good people. In fact i stayed in a couples victorian mansion in vermont just cause they felt like they needed young people about. (Older lesbian couple far into retirement) 

Your sister is family, and you seem to love her anyway, and from the tone of your post you don't seem to fully share the same values as your wife. I think your wife is a bit of a biggot and it makes me sad that people can't just be there for the other in kindness and love for fellow man. There is a difference between a vow to god, and a vow to each other. Think of the marriage ceremony as their vow to each other and not a betrayal of your beliefs system because you are supporting your sister. Family is EVERYTHING and from the sounds of it you and your wife may not remain a family much longer. 

Hell i don't support being a Mason, or sitting through their horrible long installations, and all that crap, but I GO because my husbands family have that value and i want to be a part of that family. 

Morals and values aside, you and your wife are clearly not on the same page and i think it SHOULD go towards divorce. You are not pulling the same cart forward. Forget who is wrong or right, its just pure incompatibility.


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## Evinrude58

threelittlestars said:


> Im a supporter of Gay marriage, My mom worked at OHSU when i was a kid in the nineties and there were MANY lesbian couples in the medical field. I am good friend with a few of my moms co workers and though I'm not a lesbian I'm also not religious and the couples i knew are good people. In fact i stayed in a couples victorian mansion in vermont just cause they felt like they needed young people about. (Older lesbian couple far into retirement)
> 
> Your sister is family, and you seem to love her anyway, and from the tone of your post you don't seem to fully share the same values as your wife. I think your wife is a bit of a biggot and it makes me sad that people can't just be there for the other in kindness and love for fellow man. There is a difference between a vow to god, and a vow to each other. Think of the marriage ceremony as their vow to each other and not a betrayal of your beliefs system because you are supporting your sister. Family is EVERYTHING and from the sounds of it you and your wife may not remain a family much longer.
> 
> Hell i don't support being a Mason, or sitting through their horrible long installations, and all that crap, but I GO because my husbands family have that value and i want to be a part of that family.
> 
> Morals and values aside, you and your wife are clearly not on the same page and i think it SHOULD go towards divorce. You are not pulling the same cart forward. Forget who is wrong or right, its just pure incompatibility.


Just curious how you sat through installations. Are you in the eastern star or what?
Anyway, I guess you know that fraternity is all about charity, and helping others. 32nd degree masons, "Shriners" run hospitals that help children all over the world at no cost to the children or their parents.
That's the kind of work masons do.
Why would you not support that?
Just curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Wow, I am really sad to read this, OP. I would definitely attend the ceremony if I were you. If your wife does not want you to take the girls, I would respect her wishes.

23 years ago my gay sister had her union ceremony. My dad, a staunch Catholic, refused to attend, as did several evangelical siblings. That hurt my sister a lot.

My mom attended with my aunt. My aunt was Catholic, too, and spoke with her priest beforehand. He told her to attend.

I think it will take a lot of love and patience on your part to turn things around with your wife. If it is even possible.


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## needalittlehelp

Thank you all for chiming in. I'm not trying to force my wife to do anything. I made her aware of the wedding, she acknowledged it and we're moving forward from there. I'm not going to harp on the subject or make her feel like crap for not going.

The simple fact is that, to me, family is family. If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.

They're my kids too and this is their family too. They need to see the world with open eyes and learn to respect other's beliefs. They don't have to agree with them, but they do need to be aware of other people's way of life in the world.

Our marriage is shaky for various reasons. I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.

Since there's no date set yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. I won't force the subject.

When they do have a date set, I will suggest taking the kids with me and test the water. 

Thanks again everyone for chiming in. I really appreciate it.


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## Evinrude58

Oh, and I think OP is wrong on expecting his wife to support a marriage she doesn't believe in by her attendance, and I don't think taking the kids and providing the example that two women marrying is normal and cool is a good idea, either. 
Not about bashing gays, but I think it's wrong and therefore I don't support it.
I don't believe in beauty pageants and don't help out or attend them, either. 
Your wife is entitled to her beliefs. If you are catholic, how could YOU not understand?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cynthia

Let's get this straight.
It is bigotry to be intolerant of someone else's beliefs. If someone wants to get married to someone of their own gender and you disagree with that, not going to the wedding isn't bigotry. Trying to force someone to go to a wedding that is against their beliefs is bigotry.
It is not bigotry to disagree with someone. What is bigotry is telling someone they do not have a right to their belief and you aren't going to tolerate it. It is bigotry to try to force someone to do something against their beliefs.
The wife is not trying to stop the wedding. She is not telling her husband that he cannot go. She is simply living up to what she believes. You, the husband, telling your wife that you are intolerant of her strongly held beliefs is bigotry.


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## jld

needalittlehelp said:


> I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.


When you married her, did you have to sign a paper saying your children would be raised Catholic? 

I don't know if that is still done, as I left the Church long ago. But I do remember hearing about that when I was growing up. That might be where she is coming from.


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## threelittlestars

Evinrude58 said:


> Just curious how you sat through installations. Are you in the eastern star or what?
> Anyway, I guess you know that fraternity is all about charity, and helping others. 32nd degree masons, "Shriners" run hospitals that help children all over the world at no cost to the children or their parents.
> That's the kind of work masons do.
> Why would you not support that?
> Just curious.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My husband is a mason, and i sat with the ladies and wives beading.... Not very fun for a 22 year old and being that i was not brought up with the masons i had no real understanding. But i loved and supported my husband and his family. 

I sat through Demolay when my husband was a teenager, and Jobs daughters, rainbow and easter star. Yes...i have sat through them all to a degree. Its not my most fondest moments honestly. But i did it and i don't feel its a bad thing that i did. 

Sorry for the thread jack.


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## Evinrude58

That's what parents DO, is teach their kids to value what they value. We, as Christians, are supposed to teach our kids that the rules in the Bible don't change to fit society.

I totally think you're in the wrong in this. She is right to not want your kids to go. She understands it's your sister and you want to support her. 

Exactly what would you NOT support your sister in? There should be a limit to what you support. I think you should pray about this and see where your heart is led.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

needalittlehelp said:


> If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.


But it's ok for you to insist they DO go due to YOUR beliefs? Double standard. 

Yes, kids will eventually need to be exposed to all kinds of people and belief systems, but part of our jobs as parents can be to shield them from adult issues before their little minds are mature enough to formulate their own beliefs and convictions, while attempting to guide them in what we believe to be true. Since you and your wife are not in agreement on this issue, this wedding will likely not be the only time this issue comes up. 

How old are your kids? If they are little enough to be flower girls, I assume they are young, and they will not be sad or upset, or even know, that they are missing the wedding. So, then the issue becomes you are afraid of pissing off the rest of the family (i.e. your sister, maybe your parents?), and that's making your family more important than your wife. 

I'm sure your sister knows that not everyone, especially religious people, will approve of her marriage. She's had to put up with a lot of this type of thing in her lifetime, and your wife is probably not the only person who will choose not to attend. I think she'll understand.


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## jld

OP, do the girls know that their aunt is getting married? Have they expressed any opinions on going?

One risk of not telling them, after discussion with their mother, of course, is that later in life they may feel disrespected by not having had the opportunity to express their opinions on the matter. They may blame you, as the parent who knew, but did not fight to let them know.

Just something to consider.


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## MJJEAN

Left arm optimistic said:


> I think you should raise this wedding issue in front of your counsellor so your wife is forced to confront her offensive, childish and (from perspective of your and your kids relationship with the rest of your family) damaging stance in front of someone detached and objective.
> 
> Is your wife hoping that your kids never find out that there are homosexual people in the world? Or is the aim that they be viewed as such low lives that nobody your kids know or love could possibly fall into such a group?


Excuse me? It's now childish and offensive to have religious and moral beliefs and to want to pass those beliefs onto offspring?

The wife is a woman of faith. Her faith teaches that marriage is reserved for heterosexual couples. Her faith also teaches that it is a grave sin to support gay marriage, explicitly or implicitly. This woman literally believes that attending this wedding is morally wrong and does not want to attend nor have her children attend.

That said, attending the reception is kind of a grey area. Possible comprmise there.

And, lastly, directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. *They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.* These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Clearly, this woman isn't being malicious. She is called by her faith to be respectful, sensitive, and compassionate to homosexuals. What she is forbidden to do is attend the wedding ceremony.


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## Left arm optimistic

Seems that there's so many problems in the OPs marriage, that this wedding issue is just indicative of the many broader problems... I can't really imagine living with someone and having such fundamentaly different moral beliefs though - I feel for you as it's very hard to raise kids and constantly have to compromise on which beliefs to instill in them.

I hope you're counselling can help things. 


Don't want to hijack the thread, but stuff like "You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy"" and "You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with " is an odd thing to say, and this isn't even accounting for the fact that the Catholic church is responsible and complicit for some the largest examples of institutionalized and covered up child abuse in history (which means it's hard to argue in favor of following their selected morality). Being religious doesn't give people a free pass (no right to dispute, ignore interfere with...) it's this kind of sentiment that has lead all religions to inflict misery on the masses throughout history and still today. 



SecondTime'Round said:


> But it's ok for you to insist they DO go due to YOUR beliefs? Double standard.
> 
> Yes, kids will eventually need to be exposed to all kinds of people and belief systems, but part of our jobs as parents can be to shield them from adult issues before their little minds are mature enough to formulate their own beliefs and convictions, while attempting to guide them in what we believe to be true. Since you and your wife are not in agreement on this issue, this wedding will likely not be the only time this issue comes up.
> 
> How old are your kids? If they are little enough to be flower girls, I assume they are young, and they will not be sad or upset, or even know, that they are missing the wedding. So, then the issue becomes you are afraid of pissing off the rest of the family (i.e. your sister, maybe your parents?), and that's making your family more important than your wife.
> 
> I'm sure your sister knows that not everyone, especially religious people, will approve of her marriage. She's had to put up with a lot of this type of thing in her lifetime, and your wife is probably not the only person who will choose not to attend. I think she'll understand.


Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.

2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??


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## Evinrude58

Left arm optimistic said:


> Seems that there's so many problems in the OPs marriage, that this wedding issue is just indicative of the many broader problems... I can't really imagine living with someone and having such fundamentaly different moral beliefs though - I feel for you as it's very hard to raise kids and constantly have to compromise on which beliefs to instill in them.
> 
> I hope you're counselling can help things.
> 
> 
> Don't want to hijack the thread, but stuff like "You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy"" and "You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with " is an odd thing to say, and this isn't even accounting for the fact that the Catholic church is responsible and complicit for some the largest examples of institutionalized and covered up child abuse in history (which means it's hard to argue in favor of following their selected morality). Being religious doesn't give people a free pass (no right to dispute, ignore interfere with...) it's this kind of sentiment that has lead all religions to inflict misery on the masses throughout history and still today.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.
> 
> 2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??


We'll see, having religious beliefs and thinking something is wrong is not "homophobia". 
Homosexuality is "completely natural"???

Having homosexuality pushed down one's throats as perfectly normal and completely natural is where it gets wrong to me.
I think it's a psychological disorder that shouldn't result in people being persecuted because of it, but it shouldn't be presented as completely natural, either.

See? We disagree...., OP and his wife disagree. OP is a catholic. I'm not. But I know that he should understand that she thinks attending is wrong. Should he force her to agree?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

Left arm optimistic said:


> Sorry, but this is upsetting.
> 
> 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.
> 
> 2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??


This is a woman who is Catholic. She married a Catholic man. They had children who, presumably, would be raised in the same faith. 

She has every right to pass her moral beliefs onto her children. And she believes it is unnatural and sinful for two members of the same sex to have intimate relations. She does not want her children exposed to that which is unnatural and sinful. She does not want them to grow up believing homosexuality is morally right or natural, because she believes it is not. 

Yes, I believe Sis should just suck it up. She's an adult and is presumably aware of what the Church teaches as her brother is Catholic. She should be mature enough to understand that OP's wife isn't being malicious. She's merely adhering to a sincerely held religious conviction.


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## unbelievable

Left arm optimistic said:


> Seems that there's so many problems in the OPs marriage, that this wedding issue is just indicative of the many broader problems... I can't really imagine living with someone and having such fundamentaly different moral beliefs though - I feel for you as it's very hard to raise kids and constantly have to compromise on which beliefs to instill in them.
> 
> I hope you're counselling can help things.
> 
> 
> Don't want to hijack the thread, but stuff like "You cannot call another person's religious beliefs "crazy"" and "You have religious convictions which you are entitled to and which no one, not even your wife, have the right to dispute, ignore, or interfere with " is an odd thing to say, and this isn't even accounting for the fact that the Catholic church is responsible and complicit for some the largest examples of institutionalized and covered up child abuse in history (which means it's hard to argue in favor of following their selected morality). Being religious doesn't give people a free pass (no right to dispute, ignore interfere with...) it's this kind of sentiment that has lead all religions to inflict misery on the masses throughout history and still today.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.
> 
> 2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??


Marriage is quite a bit more complicated than two people feeling "love" for each other and gay marriage can hardly be considered "natural" when it was basically unheard of throughout civilization until just a few years ago. Marriage is also a matter of law and a legal contract. People may have objections to gay marriage that have nothing to do with bigotry or their views about homosexuality.
To imagine otherwise is to be bigoted. A phobia is an irrational fear and there are very rational reasons one might object to a specific marriage law. People have views and opinions. Your's aren't necessarily "right" and their's "wrong". They are just different views. Your bigotry is no more acceptable than someone else's. 

My kids learned from me is that I believed what I believed and I lived what I believed to the best of my ability. As they grew they decided for themselves what they would believe but they knew they were expected to live with integrity, regardless. If this woman has a moral objection to going she needs to stay home and her kids should see her behaving as she believes. What is far more damaging to kids, I believe, are people who profess to believe one thing but behave in ways obviously inconsistent. If you teach your kids that those who do not approve of gay marriage are homophobic do you imagine you are teaching them tolerance?


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## Left arm optimistic

MJJEAN said:


> Excuse me? It's now childish and offensive to have religious and moral beliefs and to want to pass those beliefs onto offspring?



To flat out refuse, not even think it's up for discussion is childish. But infact, no child could be so dogmatic, so childish was perhaps the wrong term. 

OP stated (and obviously we don't know how accurate this is) 

_"She told me that they would just have to understand "our" stance on the subject and accept the fact that we won't attend or support the marriage. "_

I think that's pretty low, and also indicative of a mindset where the kids won't be able to make up their own mind. They will grow up with the belief that such relationships can't be supported. 

Having an adult discussion about it, in front of somebody more objective could lead to a better way of communicating though



Evinrude58 said:


> We'll see, having religious beliefs and thinking something is wrong is not "homophobia".
> Homosexuality is "completely natural"???



The point being made was that the OPs sister had encountered this type of feelings in the past, so should just get over it... I think that's a very poor argument, and anybody who has been discriminated against (on moral, biblical, racial, sexual or any other grounds) will be able to appreciate this. 



Evinrude58 said:


> Having homosexuality pushed down one's throats as perfectly normal and completely natural is where it gets wrong to me.
> I think it's a psychological disorder that shouldn't result in people being persecuted because of it, but it shouldn't be presented as completely natural, either.
> 
> See? We disagree...., OP and his wife disagree. OP is a catholic. I'm not. But I know that he should understand that she thinks attending is wrong. Should he force her to agree?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some of the greatest minds in science, psychology and academia have agreed that homosexuality is not a psychological disorder, but you persist with this thought. Do you have any scientific findings to back this up? Is allowing gay couples to get married really shoving it down people's throats? 

It may be far, far less common than heterosexuality, but just as being left handed is far far less common than being right handed, it doesn't mean that being left handed is not natural or is some kind of disorder. 

We do disagree... We probably wouldn't get married, or even be close friends  which makes me feel particularly bad for the OP. I can't imagine having such fundamentally different moral belief system to my wife.


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## richie33

Money is tight....so go yourself, have a great time. It will matter most to your sister that you be there to support her.
Let you children make up their own minds about what's right and wrong for themselves.


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## D.H Mosquito

It's a tough one as i know you want to support your sister and share in her happy day, However your wife is a practicing Catholic and strong in her faith and you have to respect her wishes that she and your children will not attend due to this clashing with her spiritual well being and faith also you are well aware of your faiths stance of love the sinner not the sin and by attending the ceremony she will be in conflict with your churches teaching and I feel you are in the wrong holding a divorce threat over this. But all means divorce on other issues that you have but not over a matter of good conscience for her.


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## Left arm optimistic

unbelievable said:


> If you teach your kids that those who do not approve of gay marriage are homophobic do you imagine you are teaching them tolerance?


I am in favor of reason, and against dogmatism.

I teach my kids that people can make their own choices about their lifestyles and as long as these choices don't hurt others, then I will be supportive and tolerant of them.


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## Lila

needalittlehelp said:


> Thank you all for chiming in. I'm not trying to force my wife to do anything. I made her aware of the wedding, she acknowledged it and we're moving forward from there. I'm not going to harp on the subject or make her feel like crap for not going.
> 
> The simple fact is that, to me, family is family. If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.
> 
> They're my kids too and this is their family too. They need to see the world with open eyes and learn to respect other's beliefs. They don't have to agree with them, but they do need to be aware of other people's way of life in the world.
> 
> Our marriage is shaky for various reasons. I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.
> 
> Since there's no date set yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. I won't force the subject.
> 
> When they do have a date set, I will suggest taking the kids with me and test the water.
> 
> Thanks again everyone for chiming in. I really appreciate it.



I am pro-gay marriage and yet agree with the others that say your wife is correct in this instance. I advise you not to take your young daughters to your sister's wedding. The reason is simple. Your personal view on same sex relationships in moot. You and your wife, jointly, decided to raise your family within the Catholic Faith. Part of belonging means agreeing to their 'rules'. The Catholic Church is very black and white with regards to same-sex marriage. They view it as sinful. If you take your girls to your sister's wedding, you are essentially devaluing the teachings of the church and thereby undermining their faith.


----------



## MJJEAN

Left arm optimistic said:


> To flat out refuse, not even think it's up for discussion is childish. But infact, no child could be so dogmatic, so childish was perhaps the wrong term.
> 
> OP stated (and obviously we don't know how accurate this is)
> 
> _"She told me that they would just have to understand "our" stance on the subject and accept the fact that we won't attend or support the marriage. "_
> 
> I think that's pretty low, and also indicative of a mindset where the kids won't be able to make up their own mind. They will grow up with the belief that such relationships can't be supported.
> 
> Having an adult discussion about it, in front of somebody more objective could lead to a better way of communicating though


They did have an adult discussion about it. Presumably, when they married. Catholics attend premarital counseling. They are versed in their faith and what it requires of them, particularly as parents. It's not like he didn't know what his wife's beliefs were when he married her and had children with her. Children presumably also Baptized Catholics and required to adhere to the tenets of the faith by virtue of their parents decision to Baptize them. Which requires both parents to make certain promises about raising them in the faith. Promises attending a gay wedding breaks.

And, no, the children don't get to decide. They're children. Children are not adults. That's why they have parents. To make choices for them until they are mentally capable of doing so themselves.


----------



## jld

MJJEAN said:


> And, no, the children don't get to decide. They're children. Children are not adults. That's why they have parents. To make choices for them until they are mentally capable of doing so themselves.


When my sister announced her ceremony, my brother and his wife decided not to attend. His son, who was twelve at the time, said, "Dad, that's your sister! What do you mean we are not going?"

His mother, my sil, got up at the ceremony and shared the above. She started to cry when she did, and I have tears in my eyes thinking of it. She told us that thanks to the wisdom of their son, they changed their minds. And my sister was very grateful.


----------



## *Deidre*

Seems like you both haven't been on the same page with much of anything, in a while. If ever. The gay marriage thing is just another thing you don't agree on. I'd go to the wedding, and decide if staying married to someone whom sounds more like a roommate than anything else, is where you want to be in life.


----------



## MJJEAN

jld said:


> When my sister announced her ceremony, my brother and his wife decided not to attend. His son, who was twelve at the time, said, "Dad, that's your sister! What do you mean we are not going?"
> 
> His mother, my sil, got up at the ceremony and shared the above. She started to cry when she did, and I have tears in my eyes thinking of it. She told us that thanks to the wisdom of their son, they changed their minds. And my sister was very grateful.


That's sweet. It is. My favorite uncle was a gay man. My sister went through a phase where she thought she might be a lesbian, complete with a female lover. One of my closest friends is transgender, MTF, and is a great person. Believe me, I have nothing against LGBT folks. Some people are a bit more firm in their religious convictions and cannot violate them. 

In my house, the response would have been "While I wish my sister a happy life, I cannot condone her life choices by attending the ceremony. To do so would be a betrayal of everything our faith teaches and of sacred promises made for me at Baptism and by me at Confirmation."

Catholics must be obedient to the Church and the Church leaves almost no wriggle room on this. Love your gay friend/family member, yes. Attend the wedding? No.


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## ConanHub

Huge tj going on here.

OP. Didn't you two do premarital?

How did such differences get overlooked?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

I think your wife is a bigot. She can disagree due to her beliefs, but attending is not endorsing. Your family - including inlaws - is important, whether or not you agree with their nature or choices. You have equal say as parents, I think. If you want to take your daughters, you should take them if you can afford to do so. You must go no matter what it takes, IMO. However, given the many problems in your marriage, I would have no hesitation in suggesting you divorce her.


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## richie33

They are Catholic and are discussing divorce. Last I heard it was till death do us part.


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## jld

richie33 said:


> They are Catholic and are discussing divorce. Last I heard it was till death do us part.


Good point, Richie.

OP, does your wife refuse to use artificial birth control, too? Is she truly faithful to all Catholic teachings? Or is she only faithful on the ones she agrees with?

You could point this out to her.


----------



## Catherine602

needalittlehelp said:


> Thank you all for chiming in. I'm not trying to force my wife to do anything. I made her aware of the wedding, she acknowledged it and we're moving forward from there. I'm not going to harp on the subject or make her feel like crap for not going.
> 
> The simple fact is that, to me, family is family. If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.


If your aim is to undermine your wife and her value system and belittle her unworldliness to her daughters then you found the perfect vehicle, your sisters gay wedding. As their father, you know that your daughters have been exposed to family, love and acceptance every day with you. Missing one wedding will not make a blip in the life of two children with a father so passionate about tolerance for differences.

Don't do this to your children. Let them grow up with as little conflict as possible. Let them grow up with good sound values, that will broaden as they get older. Don't think of yourself, think of you daughters. 

This is another thing you should think of, get a job to prepare for D. You realize someone needs to work so why not you? The talk of D was rather premature on you part, what happens to the business when you D? If you want to keep it, you will have to buy your STBX out and run it yourself. Even then, you will both have to work for extra income to support yourselves and children. 

Calm down and think of what you are doing. Are your differences so great that you want to rip everything apart to prove how right you are. Is there anything left of empathy, compassion and love for two girls who need a mom and dad who respect one another. If you decide to D, be the bigger of the two parents and put your children first.


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## EleGirl

How old are your children?


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## Lila

EleGirl said:


> How old are your children?


Based on his other thread, they are 9 and 10.


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## ConanHub

Very nice of all you "tolerant" folks to refer to people you don't agree with as bigots and childish.

Want us to start throwing insults back your way?

I'm hardly a bigot and will not participate or attend any marriage that is out of line in my view.

I have a cousin getting married to a woman beater.

I don't endorse her choice or approve in any way.

I will not attend. Same for gay weddings or any other circumstance I don't endorse.

I respect Satan worshippers who won't have anything to do with any form of my religious expression, ceremonies or otherwise.

I also have good friends who are gay.

Amazing how we respect each other and our separate views.

They aren't childish bigots and neither am I but some posters are coming off that way.

Stop being bigots against practicing Catholics, Buddhists or anything in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Evinrude58

Pretty controversial topic. What I call shoving down my throat is how Hollywood has force fed the gay lifestyle as normal, and that people are demanding those that dont agree, attend gay ceremonies. 
I think they should just enjoy those who come, don't worry about who doesn't come to their wedding. And I think i can be friends with gay people as long as the lifestyle is left out of our friendship. I don't say shun these people, just don't act like it's all ok. Just like a person who is living with an affair partner. Dont bring that around me and expect me to ignore it, because you know I don't think it's ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SecondTime'Round

Left arm optimistic said:


> Sorry, but this is upsetting. 1. You're saying that children should be shielded from the idea that 2 people of the same gender can be in love because it's an adult issue? If children are exposed to this (completely natural) thing, then they’re more equipped to make an informed decision about it once they’re older. If it’s something that’s hidden from them, then of course they’re more likely to grow up thinking it’s a bit weird, and maybe wrong.
> 
> 2. You're saying that because the OPs sister has put up with homophobic behavior in the past, this isn't a big deal, she should just suck it up? Would you say the same about an inter-racial marriage (in the context of the sort of bigotry sometimes associated??


I'm saying parents have a right to guide their young children within the guidelines of their religious principles. For me, this issue is 100 percent about what the Bible teaches (what the mother, as a Catholic, believes). It's not about civil rights. It's about religion. 

For the record, I also believe in tolerance and would attend a gay wedding. I'm a Christian, though, so whether or not I'd want my kids to go and be confused about what I was teaching them the Bible says about it, and what "civil rights" says.....I'm really not sure I'd want to subject them to that at a young age. 

If you have no Biblical basis behind what your beliefs are, I respectfully don't expect you agree with this point of view. I totally get why you wouldn't.


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## richie33

So the mother makes the rules and father has no say?


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## SecondTime'Round

richie33 said:


> So the mother makes the rules and father has no say?


Not at all, which is why I said that with their differences of opinion on this issue, this won't be the last time this comes up. I'm not sure WHAT the best answer is here for the marriage, but I don't think the wife should be bashed so much for her religious beliefs. People who believe homosexuality is wrong based on what the Bible teaches believe so because of what God's Word has said (and they believe in the omnipotence of God's Word).....this does not make them bigots. It makes them committed followers of God. It would be a LOT easier to NOT believe that way.


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## MJJEAN

richie33 said:


> So the mother makes the rules and father has no say?


He had his say when he married a Catholic. Part of marriage prep is promising to raise children as Catholic.


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## richie33

She has all the right in the world to not go, I agree 100%. I have a problem with telling the OP the kids cannot go period....no discussion, no compromise. I am sure we can go through the bible and find a lot of things this wife is not following in the Catholic religion. I think she just doesn't want to go and is hanging her hat as her argument.
Again I think OP should go alone, leave the wife and kids home cause you cannot afford them to go anyway.


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## richie33

MJJEAN said:


> He had his say when he married a Catholic. Part of marriage prep is promising to raise children as Catholic.


So is divorce apart of that prep? What about honoring your spouses wishes? He stated they are hurting financially and she has the ability to change that due to her degrees. Even the Pope has soften his stance on homosexuality in recent years. In 20 years marriage changes, this man might not have known his sister was gay 20 years ago. Some of us put family before religion, the OP may feel that way. His wife might not, so she stays home.


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## Married but Happy

If we want to question words and labels, let's be sure we understand the definitions:

bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

intolerant. 1 : unable or unwilling to endure. 2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights

Draw your own conclusions - and I will draw mine based on what's been said.


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## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> If we want to question words and labels, let's be sure we understand the definitions:
> 
> bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
> 
> intolerant. 1 : unable or unwilling to endure. 2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights
> 
> Draw your own conclusions - and I will draw mine based on what's been said.


I will let my gay friends determine my hatred of them. Not you. I might not attend their weddings but eat with them, exchange recipes, talk about our children, etc...

Seriously. I don't have any pork dishes when dealing with orthodox Jews or certain strict sects of Christianity.

I abstain from wine with many Christians because it is taboo for them.

I give as good as I expect to get.

Not approving does not mean hatred.

Start a thread.

OP and his wife should have worked this out before even having sex.

If children are not part of the equation, it is much easier for a couple to hold differing sacred beliefs.

You and your wife are like minded which serves you well.

OP and his wife are not. Thus the major point of dispute.

He is apparently bringing up divorce.

Is she pushing the big D OP?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

ConanHub said:


> I will let my gay friends determine my hatred of them. Not you. I might not attend their weddings but eat with them, exchange recipes, talk about our children, etc...


I'm not addressing you. But I may be more tolerant than you.


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## threelittlestars

Im not trying to offend anyone, i was just using the term Bigot, because ^ like the above poster said, that is what it means and I'm not the best thesaurus to get a less controversial word. So apologies for the harsh term. and i humbly beg forgiveness for offending others beliefs here. 

Not trying to be insulting to others on the board who are pretty great people from the other comments they have made in other threads, but i personally find it a bit wrong that the OPs wife has to take the SIL marriage personal. Its not about her faith. Its about the two people coming together in partnership and love.


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## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> I'm not addressing you. But I may be more tolerant than you.


I hold the same ideal as OP's wife concerning attending a gay wedding.

You easily called her a bigot for the issue therefore you label me one as well.

You even spelled out what a bigot is but my friends don't recognize those traits in me even though they obviously know where I stand.

She may well be a bigot but not attending a gay wedding doesn't make her one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

Left arm optimistic said:


> I am in favor of reason, and against dogmatism.
> 
> I teach my kids that people can make their own choices about their lifestyles and as long as these choices don't hurt others, then I will be supportive and tolerant of them.


You assume those who oppose gay marriage are operating without reason? In your own mind, you are right, they are wrong, you are good, they are bad. That's very tolerant and open-minded of you.


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## ConanHub

threelittlestars said:


> Im not trying to offend anyone, i was just using the term Bigot, because ^ like the above poster said, that is what it means and I'm not the best thesaurus to get a less controversial word. So apologies for the harsh term. and i humbly beg forgiveness for offending others beliefs here.
> 
> Not trying to be insulting to others on the board who are pretty great people from the other comments they have made in other threads, but i personally find it a bit wrong that the OPs wife has to take the SIL marriage personal. Its not about her faith. Its about the two people coming together in partnership and love.


I think people who don't eat bacon and think I am sinning when I do it are incorrect as well but not filled with hatred because they won't accompany me to baconfest.

I wouldn't invite people to a beer garden who believe drinking is a sin either.

I am in relationship with many who disagree with my choices.

That is life. I don't hate on people for personal choices that don't inflict harm on others.

Not agreeing or participating is a world away from hatred.

Disagreements aren't exclusive to Christians BTW.

I have also had run ins with exceptionally bad gay people.

You believe differently than my God. I will never expect you to live by my standards but the same needs to apply to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable

needalittlehelp said:


> Thank you all for chiming in. I'm not trying to force my wife to do anything. I made her aware of the wedding, she acknowledged it and we're moving forward from there. I'm not going to harp on the subject or make her feel like crap for not going.
> 
> The simple fact is that, to me, family is family. If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.
> 
> They're my kids too and this is their family too. They need to see the world with open eyes and learn to respect other's beliefs. They don't have to agree with them, but they do need to be aware of other people's way of life in the world.
> 
> Our marriage is shaky for various reasons. I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.
> 
> Since there's no date set yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. I won't force the subject.
> 
> When they do have a date set, I will suggest taking the kids with me and test the water.
> 
> Thanks again everyone for chiming in. I really appreciate it.


If you wish to teach your kids to respect the beliefs of others how about demonstrating respect for your wife's? That'll be a lot more convincing than dragging them to a wedding.


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## ConanHub

I honestly don't get that he didn't know his wife's view on this before now.

I think he is looking to divorce and decided to throw this in.

OP!

You really had no clue about this catholic girl before marrying her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

Is the OP's sister harming anyone by marrying another woman? I would say no, that is not the case no matter what anyone may believe about the religious morality of the situation. Is the OP's wife harming his sister by not attending? Probably not. Is she harming family connections and civility by not attending? Probably, and may be creating tension and discord by not attending and not allowing their children to attend. Creating potential or actual harm is unethical, IMO, and OP's wife is doing so and fomenting family discord, and is only doing so because of religious bias, which - to me - is intolerant bigotry. Whether someone else doing the same thing is a bigot is an open question, because if depends on their motives and their relationships with the people affected. 

I'm not calling anyone else here a bigot. If you feel that I am, look to your self to understand why you think the label applies, because *I* am not applying it.


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## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> Is the OP's sister harming anyone by marrying another woman? I would say no, that is not the case no matter what anyone may believe about the religious morality of the situation. Is the OP's wife harming his sister by not attending? Probably not. Is she harming family connections and civility by not attending? Probably, and may be creating tension and discord by not attending and not allowing their children to attend. Creating potential or actual harm is unethical, IMO, and OP's wife is doing so and fomenting family discord, and is only doing so because of religious bias, which - to me - is intolerant bigotry. Whether someone else doing the same thing is a bigot is an open question, because if depends on their motives and their relationships with the people affected.
> 
> I'm not calling anyone else here a bigot. If you feel that I am, look to your self to understand why you think the label applies, because *I* am not applying it.


The harm being done here is because OP suddenly decided his wife's religious beliefs were a reason to divorce.

Something he undoubtedly knew before marrying her.

You are calling anyone who won't attend a relative's gay wedding a bigot.

That is me and many like me. Keep up your name calling. It really promotes fights and seriously encourages name calling in return.

You live by your parameters and everyone else will do likewise. Really none of your business to call people bigots for not attending a gay wedding. No more so than calling you names because you believe differently than I would be beneficial.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## needalittlehelp

Ok, YES I knew my wife's beliefs BEFORE we got married. YES, we went through marriage prep that was sponsored through the church. 

I get it. You all think I'm a bigot for not respecting her wishes and views. 

I GET IT

But here's the thing, family is huge. My sister has had a hard time relationship wise and I'm extremely happy for her.

She's a good person who has a different lifestyle than that of my family. I respect her and her partner and wish them the best.

If my wife won't go then so be it. If I can't take my kids then so be it. I was looking to open my kids eyes a little bit more to other people's way of life and views.

My kids are 9 and 10 by the way. They know their aunt is gay and have met her partner a couple of times before. They really like her, the partner, and love their aunt. So, them being gay is nothing new to them. We have had several talks with them to openly educate them so they know about being gay and can hopefully try and understand it. We aren't trying to get them to support it or judge it, just understand what it is.

So, with that being said, I was really hoping my wife would be open to the idea of going to the wedding. I thought she would say no, but I had to approach the subject and ask regardless of what she said.

I respect my wife and her religious beliefs and there is nothing wrong with asking.

We have our fair share of problems and are trying to work it out. Just like any issue with a couple other than yourselves, you don't have all the facts. You have no idea where we are and what hurdles we are and have been jumping to make it work. I could type until my fingers are sore and not get all the info down for you to JUDGE.

I'm reaching out to the community because I need help and I'm honestly trying to make an informed decision. I will respect her and her religious beliefs regardless of what happens with us and this wedding. I may not like it, but I would NEVER attempt to force her to go do anything she felt was sinful or against her core values.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject.


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## threelittlestars

I think you should go, and if you feel that your children should go you need to discuss that with your wife. I agree with Conanhub on not having her beliefs be the source of your divorce because its not.Like you said you knew before. There is much more at play with the problems in the marriage. 

And knowing that you love your sister and support her choice in life maybe your wife will allow the children to attend, but if not personally i would not fight her on this. She does have as much right directing your kids upbringing as you do, i just don't think this battle is one you should fight hard on. Just go yourself if need be.


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## jld

What do the kids want to do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

needalittlehelp said:


> The simple fact is that, to me, *family is family.* If you don't support the gay marriage, I get it. If you don't want to go, OK. But, if you tell me that OUR kids aren't going due to your beliefs, that's not ok.
> 
> They're my kids too and this is their family too. They need to see the world with open eyes and learn to respect other's beliefs. They don't have to agree with them, but they do need to be aware of other people's way of life in the world.
> 
> *Our marriage is shaky for various reasons. *I am not a cradle Catholic. I converted so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, *but don't make your views the kids's views.*
> 
> Since there's no date set yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. *I won't force the subject.*
> 
> When they do have a date set,* I will suggest taking the kids with me and test the water. *


OP, you just do not get it. You are the fundamental problem. Most people follow the religion they are raised in. They do not choose it, but many fully adopt it. Your wife's beliefs require her to raise her children in the same religion. Therefore, she has an obligation to make the kid's views her views. You seem to not value religion, but you value "family". Your wife is your family too. 

Your planning to "test the water" again after being clearly informed of your wife's position is disrespectful.

As for your fledgling business, what is more important? The business or your marriage? If your business is generating insufficient cash flow to fund the the family and causing strain on your marriage due to too much interaction with wife, then shut down the business and you BOTH get a new job. 

Your version of compromise is you get to do what you want and your wife has to change. You want your wife to disregard her beliefs and attend a gay marriage. You want your wife to get a new job while you get to play with your own business.

How do you think the business will survive after a divorce???

FWIW, I was raised a C and two of my closest friends are gay and lesbian. And your wife is still right. 

What are the other reasons your marriage is shaky?


----------



## 225985

richie33 said:


> *They* are Catholic and are discussing divorce. Last I heard it was till death do us part.


Not THEY. It is OP considering divorce, not his wife. OP converted to Catholicism but has not embraced it.



jld said:


> Good point, Richie.
> 
> OP, *does your wife refuse to use artificial birth control,* too? Is she truly faithful to all Catholic teachings? * Or is she only faithful on the ones she agrees with?*
> 
> You could point this out to her.


How do you know what method of BC wife is using. She might be using natural family planning method approved by the Church. 

Please do not use another's thread to push your anti-Catholic or anti-religion agenda.


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## richie33

blueinbr said:


> Not THEY. It is OP considering divorce, not his wife. OP converted to Catholicism but has not embraced it.
> 
> 
> How do you know what method of BC wife is using. She might be using natural family planning method approved by the Church.
> 
> Please do not use another's thread to push your anti-Catholic or anti-religion agenda.


Go back and re read the opening post. OP states WE actively discussed divorce.


----------



## aine

needalittlehelp said:


> HELP! We are going through rough times. To make a really long story short, I am considering divorce.
> 
> I approached my wife twice before with the suggestion of counseling and was turned down both times.
> 
> Recently, I told her I was contemplating divorce and told her we needed to go to counseling or it was over. She agreed and we have been 5 times so far.
> 
> We have the typical ups and downs of marriage, that I know will exist with any marriage, but we also have a unique situation.
> 
> We own a small business and work together EVERY DAY! This is killing our marriage and I suggested that she, the one with a degree and killer resume, should find a job to not only help supplement our income, but give us some much needed space.
> 
> She refuses and rather than get a job, she pulled money out of her IRA, she's not 59 1/2, and bought some time.
> 
> Our business is 3 years old and doing well, but it's not making enough $ to support itself and our family. Hence, me asking her to help out and get a job, hopefully with benefits.
> 
> Soooooo, I have been thinking about divorce or if I married the right person for about 2 years now and we have been actively discussing divorce/marriage for about 2 months now with counseling.
> 
> Here's what could be the last straw.
> 
> My sister is gay and I love her. My wife is what I call a "super Catholic" and doesn't agree with my sister's way of life.
> 
> I get it, and I'm a Catholic as well. But here's the deal. My sister is getting married, no date set yet, and when I told my wife we should attend and that our daughters will probably be asked to be flower girls, etc. she FLAT OUT REFUSED!
> 
> She said she doesn't support their marriage and she and the kids will not go period.
> 
> This was two days ago. And I told her this would cause a major s#@$ storm with my family and they won't forget it.
> 
> She told me that they would just have to understand "our" stance on the subject and accept the fact that we won't attend or support the marriage.
> 
> THIS IS CRAZY! I mean, sometimes you have to bite your tongue and be a grownup and show up. Put on your fake smile if you need to and let's get through this thing together. It's not that big of a deal and it's FAMILY!
> 
> Last night, she was asking specific questions about dates, my involvement, etc. and kept asking me how "I" was going to make it down to the wedding. We're a little short on $$$. There was not talk of "we" or "me and the girls."
> 
> So, this could be the last straw. This could be the catalyst for divorce and I need some help.
> 
> I'm emotional and want other opinions on the subject so I can make a good decision regardless of my feelings.
> 
> PLEASE CHIME IN :crying::crying::crying:


I haven't read other responses so I am answering this immediately, sorry if I duplicate others.
There are a few issues here

1. your business and wanting her to leave the business and work outside

2. your sister's life style and wedding

1. The first scenario is tricky. Has your wife worked before outside the home? Does she really have the skills and capability of doing so? Just because she has a degree doesn't mean she has. She may be scared and a little resentful that you are pushing her to do this. Usually it is not the female who should lead the way, you are the head of the household and perhaps should also consider going and getting a job and letting her run the business? You don't like the sound of that do you? i thought so.

2. Everyone has their own values system. You knew she was a devout Catholic when you married her so I do not see why you are upset about it now. I also would not attend the wedding. She should have a say in what she does or does not do. You can go to the wedding, the values of your family (fine with same sex marriages) should not be imposed on your wife and she also has a right to say no to your daughters going. Your family have no right to make those decisions for her.

It appears to me that you are quite the bully (low level) and to start thinking about divorce based on these issues is absolutely ridiculous and immature. Marriage is about handling such differences, you don't up and run off. Think of the damage to your children. I for one think you are the one who needs to look at yourself and realise what you come accross as.

you sound spoilt and entitled just because you cannot get your way.


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## BlueWoman

Wow, I can't believe how upsetting I find this topic.

OP, quite frankly, from your description, I find your wife to be an irresponsible, selfish bigot. Cashing in her retirement money risks your families future, particularly when she could just get a job (that's the irresponsible and selfish part) and her stance on your sister's wedding is bigoted. 

You need to understand that as long as you are married to her and allow her to be dominate teacher of "morals" that's what your children will learn. The only way your children will learn a healthier outlook on life is if you have the ability to teach them about love and tolerance.

To the rest of you:
1) I absolutely can call a religious belief crazy if it's crazy. I think not using birth control is crazy. I think female circumcision is crazy. (Actually I think the same thing about male circumcision as well.) I think men having multiple child brides is crazy. I think woman having to cover their hair is crazy. I think women being forced to live in a different place when they are on their periods is crazy. These are all currently happening right now, based on religious beliefs. 
And historically we have had even more batsh!t ideas because of religion, which included not letting women vote and lynching black people (that's just in the U.S.) 

2) The bible is continually interpreted to fit society. Nobody lives 100% based on the bible, because it's not possible. I mean ignoring the Old Testament, and everything Paul said, The four Gospels contradict themselves. Why? Because they were written at different times with a different intent. And as for Paul...well historically speaking, if you know anything about the history of Christianity, (and the information is out there, you'd just have to read a book or two.) You'd really have to question the validity of anything he says. He never met Jesus, but was well known by the apostles after the Jesus' death and they weren't fans of him. His big achievement was creating a religion loosely based on a man who really was much more interested in the fate of the Jews in the Roman Empire. 

So yeah, I am intolerant of intolerance based on a document that has questionable origins to begin with and is filled with contradictions. 

3) Homosexuality is in fact natural, which is why it's been documented in several species outside of humans. 

4) Gay marriage is a fairly new topic, true. But that was because marriage originally was a legal contract to join property. The contract was completed when there was an offspring. There was no point in homosexuals getting married, because they couldn't have offspring. Oh and women were property and nobody was in love. 

However, things have changed. People get married all the time without wanting to have children. People without property get married. People get married for love. The marriage contract, though, is still an economic agreement, which says two people are joining together and pledge to take care of each other. Within this context, gay marriage is very appropriate.

5) If you are against gay marriage but think you have "good" gay friends, I can guarantee you they do not consider you a good friend. They might consider you likable despite being a bigot, but in the end it's hard to think anyone is a good friend who wouldn't support them and their family (including their spouse.) 

Now, I know most of the people this is targeted to aren't going to agree with what I've said. There is nothing more I can say than what I have said. 
But to the OP you need to know that other people do believe that family is important. And you don't skip out on major life events because of antiquated small minded bigotry. You've got some big issues in your marriage. One of those big issues as that your wife is currently imposing her bigotry on you and your daughters. Divorcing her won't stop her influence, but it could mean that you have a chance to better expose your children to your own values.


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## aine

CynthiaDe said:


> Let's get this straight.
> It is bigotry to be intolerant of someone else's beliefs. If someone wants to get married to someone of their own gender and you disagree with that, not going to the wedding isn't bigotry. Trying to force someone to go to a wedding that is against their beliefs is bigotry.
> It is not bigotry to disagree with someone. What is bigotry is telling someone they do not have a right to their belief and you aren't going to tolerate it. It is bigotry to try to force someone to do something against their beliefs.
> The wife is not trying to stop the wedding. She is not telling her husband that he cannot go. She is simply living up to what she believes. You, the husband, telling your wife that you are intolerant of her strongly held beliefs is bigotry.


:smthumbup::smthumbup:

I love how many people are all for free speech, democracy, tolerance, but then you hear

" yes you are entitled to your beliefs, free speech, democracy blah blah blah UNTIL I don't agree with you then you are no longer entitled to your free speech , beliefs, democracy....."

Seems to be a lot of that happening in the USA nowadays, seems to be an American thing (I know I'll get a lot of flack for this) >:


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## 225985

needalittlehelp said:


> Recently, *I told her I* was contemplating divorce and told her we needed to go to counseling or it was over. She agreed and we have been 5 times so far.
> 
> Soooooo, *I have been thinking about divorce *or if I married the right person for about 2 years now and *we have been actively discussing divorce/marriage for about 2 months n*ow with counseling.





richie33 said:


> Go back and re read the opening post. OP states WE actively discussed divorce.


It is* OP* that is considering divorce and brought up the subject with wife. Of course they are DISCUSSING it since he wants a divorce and she (and he) are in counseling to save the marriage. Nothing in the OP's thread said SHE is considering or wants a divorce. 

You are reading into the post what you want to see. (Me too probably.) 

I am happy for OP's sister. I wish my best friend would marry his long time partner, but my state is very bigoted (anti gay but not based on religious principles.)

I hope OP and wife can save their marriage. They need to end that business. Family is more important.


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## 6301

You ought to ask your wife that if she's so rigid in her beliefs and won't attend a gay wedding, then why isn't she so disgusted with the track record of the Roman Catholic Church with their hiding child molester priests who destroy the lives of a child and when caught they move him from parish to parish rather then doing the right thing and have his perverted ass locked up. Talk about being a hypocrite and before anyone decides to take me on about it, first I'm R.C and there is no excuse for sexual abuse of a child by an adult especially when they hide behind the guise of a church. Maybe she should get her priorities straight.


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## SnowToArmPits

OP - very tough situation for you. I'm pro gay marriage, and this is your sister's marriage, but, for the sake of your marriage and to avoid a tug of war over your children, I think I'd just attend the marriage on my own without kids or wife. I think if you take them you'll likely all have a lousy time. Not easy, but FWIW that's my advice.



Evinrude58 said:


> We, as Christians, are supposed to teach our kids that the rules in the Bible don't change to fit society.


Evinrude I've read your advice on TAM and I respect it. As an atheist this quote is tough to let by without comment. The bible is full of old laws and rules that are long, long abandoned (governing women's menstruation, and stoning your son if he won't listen to his father, etc.) We'll likely never see eye to eye on this but it seems to me that many of the rules from the bible have been discarded over the last 2,500 years as society has changed.


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## aine

6301 said:


> You ought to ask your wife that if she's so rigid in her beliefs and won't attend a gay wedding, then why isn't she so disgusted with the track record of the Roman Catholic Church with their hiding child molester priests who destroy the lives of a child and when caught they move him from parish to parish rather then doing the right thing and have his perverted ass locked up. Talk about being a hypocrite and before anyone decides to take me on about it, first I'm R.C and there is no excuse for sexual abuse of a child by an adult especially when they hide behind the guise of a church. Maybe she should get her priorities straight.


OMG, now blame the poor woman for all the faults of the church and its men, you really don't realise how ridiculous you sound. That is like blaming you for what your grandparents, cousins, etc do. If you look at your ancestry, any slave owners, nazis etc there? PluZZZZ! I arrest my case.


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## SecondTime'Round

6301 said:


> You ought to ask your wife that if she's so rigid in her beliefs and won't attend a gay wedding, then *why isn't she so disgusted* with the track record of the Roman Catholic Church with their hiding child molester priests who destroy the lives of a child and when caught they move him from parish to parish rather then doing the right thing and have his perverted ass locked up. Talk about being a hypocrite and before anyone decides to take me on about it, first I'm R.C and there is no excuse for sexual abuse of a child by an adult especially when they hide behind the guise of a church. Maybe she should get her priorities straight.


How do you know she isn't?


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## Omego

BlueWoman said:


> Wow, I can't believe how upsetting I find this topic.
> 
> To the rest of you:
> 1) I absolutely can call a religious belief crazy if it's crazy. I think not using birth control is crazy. I think female circumcision is crazy. (Actually I think the same thing about male circumcision as well.) I think men having multiple child brides is crazy. I think woman having to cover their hair is crazy. I think women being forced to live in a different place when they are on their periods is crazy. These are all currently happening right now, based on religious beliefs.
> And historically we have had even more batsh!t ideas because of religion, which included not letting women vote and lynching black people (that's just in the U.S.)


I'm sure many (hopefully) would agree that the list above contains very unacceptable actions. However, none of these have anything to do with the subject. 

It's quite simple. The wife is conservative and has traditional, not progressive, beliefs, and moreover, she is a practicing Catholic. Therefore, she does not want to sanction a ceremony which offends her. So be it. What is wrong with this? Why does this make her a bigot? 

The OP, on the other hand, is clearly more progressive and flexible with respect to tradition. He also loves his sister. He's therefore irritated and clearly worried about his sister's feelings being hurt.

OP, as the children are already familiar with the gay lifestyle and know their aunt, they may as well go. However, if your wife feels strongly about them not going, what is the problem? They can see their aunt on other occasions. 

I would just explain that you and your wife's beliefs differ on this issue and that they'll have to stay home with her if she doesn't agree.

As others have said, this issue is not the only problem in your marriage. I hope you can solve the problems through MC because divorce should really be the last possible option with young children.


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## unbelievable

Who is living with authenticity in this equation? Both parties purport to be Catholics. Presumably, their kids are being raised as Catholics. From my understanding, Christians purport to be servants of God. A servant does what his master wants, not what he wants. What does God say about this situation? Whichever way one proceeds they need to be able to convincingly explain to the kids how their actions are in agreement with what God says about the issue. To proceed any other way one might as well tell kids that God is right some of the time but other times He's a bigot and we have a better plan.


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## jld

Omego said:


> The OP, on the other hand, is clearly more progressive and flexible with respect to tradition. He also loves his sister. He's therefore irritated and clearly worried about his sister's feelings being hurt.
> 
> OP, as the children are already familiar with the gay lifestyle and know their aunt, they may as well go. However, if your wife feels strongly about them not going, what is the problem? They can see their aunt on other occasions.
> 
> I would just explain that you and your wife's beliefs differ on this issue and that they'll have to stay home with her if she doesn't agree.


The risk is that the children may feel resentful of their mother later if they are not allowed to go to this family event.

I grew up with a strict Catholic father. Repressive, overbearing religious parents risk alienating their children. 

OP, I am more and more supportive of your getting a divorce. If you were divorced already, and the wedding happened on your parenting time, none of this would be an issue. Who knows what other opportunities your kids will miss because of your wife's attitude?


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## Left arm optimistic

unbelievable said:


> Left arm optimistic said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am in favor of reason, and against dogmatism.
> 
> I teach my kids that people can make their own choices about their lifestyles and as long as these choices don't hurt others, then I will be supportive and tolerant of them.
> 
> 
> 
> You assume those who oppose gay marriage are operating without reason? In your own mind, you are right, they are wrong, you are good, they are bad. That's very tolerant and open-minded of you.
Click to expand...

I was asked how I view and teach tolerance to my kids and answered. What you say above is a pretty poor misrepresentation of what I said. 

feel bad for the OP; the issue of his sister's wedding is obviously just part of a much broader problem in the marriage, and it doesn't seem there will be any solution (re the wedding) that is suitable and acceptable for all. Feel bad for the kids too as they have a relationship with their aunt but can't go to the wedding because of their parents different beliefs .


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## GettingIt_2

Interesting thread. 

Although I have my personal feelings on the issue of marriage, they are only my feelings and not a basis on which to advise the OP. 

What I see here are core values in conflict, and a situation in which one spouse has to be willing to put their core values in the backseat to the marriage. 

That is very hard for most people to do, because it will feels like a violation of the self. 

Perhaps if OP and his wife did not have children, the acceptable (if not fully desirable for either) solution would be for OP to attend and his wife not attend the wedding. But the children seem to be the battleground, as is unfortunately too often the case when the parents are not core-value compatible. 

One of them might choose to put the marriage before their core values and not see at as a scarring loss, a violation of the soul and deepest sense of self. That can happen, I think, only in the strongest of unions, where duty to that union trumps all other senses of duty. 
Pretty rare, if even possible at all. 

My sense is that this issue of the gay wedding will be harmful to the marriage, just as many other issues probably have been and will be for this couple. Not because of of them is right and the other wrong in desiring adherence to their core values, but because neither of holds duty to the marriage above duty to themselves.


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## 225985

6301 said:


> You ought to ask your wife that if she's so rigid in her beliefs and won't attend a gay wedding, then why isn't she so disgusted with the track record of the Roman Catholic Church with their hiding child molester priests who destroy the lives of a child and when caught they move him from parish to parish rather then doing the right thing and have his perverted ass locked up. Talk about being a hypocrite and before anyone decides to take me on about it, first I'm R.C and there is no excuse for sexual abuse of a child by an adult especially when they hide behind the guise of a church. Maybe she should get her priorities straight.


WTF??? What does any of this have to do with this thread? OP's wife is not molesting any children. And who says she is not disgusted about some actions within the church?? If you are disgusted, quit being a R.C. The fact that you have this position and still consider yourself a R.C. means that YOU are a hypocrite. 

The mom just wants to practice her religion, whatever version SHE decides and wants to raise her kids in same. Jeez. Give her a break. OP considered the religion to be valid. He converted. 

And no, the kids to not get to decide. It is called parenting. We don't let kids eat ice cream for dinner, go to bed at midnight and skip school. When they get older, they can decide to stay in same religion or go a different path, like we all did. Billions of people follow a religion. 

OP is in a tough position, stuck between the clash of religion and politics within his birth and marriage families. He loves his sister and presumably still loves his wife. He is in a no win position and just must do his best to manage the fallout that will happen. 

Best wishes to him, his wife, kids, sister and sister's wife.


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## 6301

If her beliefs are so rigid and she wont go to a wedding of a same sex couple then how could one not look at the child abuse history of the R.C. church and not feel equally disgusted and want no parts of it.

Reminds me of a song back in the 60's by Barry McGuire called Eve Of Destruction" The last sentence in the last verse says it all. It says, "Hate your next door neighbor but don't forget to say grace." That pretty much sums it all up.


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## MJJEAN

GettingIt said:


> My sense is that this issue of the gay wedding will be harmful to the marriage, just as many other issues probably have been and will be for this couple. Not because of of them is right and the other wrong in desiring adherence to their core values, but because neither of holds duty to the marriage above duty to themselves.


For a Catholic, it's a marital obligation to help your spouse get to heaven. From the wife's point of view, she _is _fulfilling her duty to the marriage.


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## GettingIt_2

MJJEAN said:


> For a Catholic, it's a marital obligation to help your spouse get to heaven. From the wife's point of view, she _is _fulfilling her duty to the marriage.


I know, but it's not, in reality, helping the marriage. At least not insofar as it consists of two people with opposing viewpoints on this. 

If she gets what she wants, her husband is unhappy, feels like his values have been violated, etc. If he gets what he wants, she feels unhappy in a similar way. 

Neither of them is able to put their core values aside for the sake of harmony, for the sake of their partner's core values. 

It's really a rock and a hard place situation. For all the ways my husband and I are incompatible, at least we are aligned in our core values. I feel really sad for OP and his wife.


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## Adelais

needalittlehelp said:


> I am not a cradle Catholic. *I converted* so we, as a family, could fully participate in mass every Sunday. She is a cradle Catholic and has very strong beliefs. I understand her position on the subject, but don't make your views the kids's views.


Why did you convert to your wife's religion if you don't really believe what they teach?

Sadly for your wife, it sounds like you did a bait and switch. She thought you converted to her religion because you believed in it, and so the two of you could raise the children in a religiously unified home.

Or did you tell her and the priest who taught your premarital classes, "I'm not converting because I actually believe in what Catholics believe. I just want to go to church with the family and not look and feel like an outsider when you do communion."


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## Adelais

Based on your fake conversion, and your willingness to confuse the children with your radical beliefs on homosexuality (from her religious perspective), your poor wife should be the one considering an annulment, or divorce.


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## jld

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Or did you tell her and the priest who taught your premarital classes, "I'm not converting because I actually believe in what Catholics believe. *I just want to go to church with the family and not look and feel like an outsider when you do communion*."


Could not help laughing at that.


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## Catherine602

There is a glaring omission in the discussion, the children's right to decide if they want to go. It's not only the wife who has different values, it's the children as well. They are being asked to deal with a spiritual dilemma that no parent should want them to deal with at so young an age. They internalized the values of their religion. They should not be exposed to violating their values to support the right of an aunt to marry. They should be told what the wedding involves and any questions they have answered. Then they can make a decision based on their values.

With the above in mind, not going to the wedding will not effect the stability and consistency of their lives. One parent may feel he lost because he cannot not take his children as a token to his sister. He should handle his disappointment in a way that does not effect them. Going to the wedding requires preparation for them and may be disturbing psychologically because of their religious beliefs.


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> The risk is that the children may feel resentful of their mother later if they are not allowed to go to this family event.
> 
> I grew up with a strict Catholic father. Repressive, overbearing religious parents risk alienating their children.
> 
> OP, I am more and more supportive of your getting a divorce. If you were divorced already, and the wedding happened on your parenting time, none of this would be an issue. *Who knows what other opportunities your kids will miss because of your wife's attitude?*


Are all religious beliefs/convictions an "attitude" in your opinion?


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## jld

Catherine602 said:


> There is a glaring omission in the discussion, the children's right to decide if they want to go. It's not only the wife who has different values, it's the children as well. They are being asked to deal with a spiritual dilemma that no parent should want them to deal with at so young an age. They internalized the values of their religion. They should not be exposed to violating their values to support the right of an aunt to marry. They should be told what the wedding involves and any questions they have answered. Then they can make a decision based on their values.
> 
> With the above in mind, not going to the wedding will not effect the stability and consistency of their lives. One parent may feel he lost because he cannot not take his children as a token to his sister. He should handle his disappointment in a way that does not effect them. Going to the wedding requires preparation for them and may be disturbing psychologically because of their religious beliefs.


I have brought it up a few times. I think others may have, too. OP has not addressed it yet, though.


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## SecondTime'Round

Catherine602 said:


> There is a glaring omission in the discussion, the children's right to decide if they want to go. It's not only the wife who has different values, it's the children as well. They are being asked to deal with a spiritual dilemma that no parent should want them to deal with at so young an age. They internalized the values of their religion. They should not be exposed to violating their values to support the right of an aunt to marry. They should be told what the wedding involves and any questions they have answered. Then they can make a decision based on their values.
> 
> With the above in mind, not going to the wedding will not effect the stability and consistency of their lives. *One parent may feel he lost because he cannot not take his children as a token to his sister. He should handle his disappointment in a way that does not effect them*. Going to the wedding requires preparation for them and may be disturbing psychologically because of their religious beliefs.


And let's be honest. Attending weddings is a whole lot more fun without having to take care of your children while you're there. I kinda doubt OP is gonna be moping around at the reception if his kids are not there.


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## jld

SecondTime'Round said:


> Are all religious beliefs/convictions an "attitude" in your opinion?


More or less. 

That was not meant to be disrespectful, btw.


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## SecondTime'Round

jld said:


> More or less.
> 
> That was not meant to be disrespectful, btw.


Interesting. Religious intolerance goes both ways.


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## Anon Pink

When my daughter got gay married her wife's family said they would not attend. Cause them righteous Christians, who don't actually attend church but sure like to bash the gays, refused to support an immoral Union. Which was hilarious considering every damn single one of them had been divorced at least once, had children out of wedlock, had affairs, had committed embezzlement, had abused their kids, and were drug addicts. Every single of them had done at least one of the above. Yeah yeah yeah... Let's all make sure the gays don't spread their sickness.

OP, your marriage is crap and your wife is using your sisters wedding as a control and passive aggressive move. Your wife may be all fire and brimstone for real but she's gonna die on this hill so my advice would be to heartily apologize to your sister and let her know what a bigot your wife is while you promise at some point you will ensure your kids don't grow up to be bigoted like their mother.

I wish I'd never seen this thread, I used to like some of you.


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## mrshavisham

I can't believe that a person's supposedly stoic religious beliefs can be such an obstacle to what it means to be family. Family should always be supportive, respectful, and loving. It doesn't mean that they have to accept certain truths, such as a person's sexuality. But they should certainly be tolerant! I'm sorry but family is family. If my husband pulled this **** on me and wasn't tolerant of my family member's sexuality (I'm not saying he must accept it!), then that would raise some red flags for me.

My husband is Hindu. I don't believe what he believes, but I am tolerant of it and mildly participate in their rituals from time to time because that's what family does - they support, respect, and love. It doesn't matter what religion we are in our marriages. Our spouses should be supportive either through acceptance or tolerance. Plain and simple.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk


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## Hicks

Here's my view.
Most people do what they want to do. Sometimes they will use their religion to justify it. Sometimes they will ignore the teachings of their religion. Sometimes they actually make a decision based on what their church advises.

Now, let's say one of your children turn out gay? Does the CC forbid you and your wife from attending their wedding? So a simple answer is you two should visit a priest in your parish and directly clarify if the church forbids her from attending the gay wedding of your sister and agree to abide by this guidance in advance.

But the more complicated reality is that most probably your wife resents you and is trying to zing you. Ask yourself this, if you and your wife were extremely happy, and she loved and cherished her life with you and your extended family, would she be doing this?

Personally I think this is a symptom of where your marriage is at more than anything... And it's your responsibility to fix your marriage.


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## Maricha75

Perhaps I missed it, and I apologize if so. But, OP, how does your wife interact with your sister and her fiancée, when they see each other? 

I won't pretend to understand your wife, but if she,is as strong in her beliefs as many are in my denomination, I might be able to shed some light on what she MAY be dealing with, assuming that she DOES get along well with your sister and her fiancée. 

Two good friends of mine got married a few years before I did. Our pastor, at the time, was also a very good friend of all of ours. He was given the invitations to both weddings, but declined the invitations. The reason? The men were marrying women who were not of our denomination. If he had gone, he would have felt obligated to speak up at the part about "if anyone knows of any reason they should not be married..." Rather than hurt the friendships, he did not attend the ceremonies. Now, I am not saying this IS the case with your wife, OP, but it may be. 

Or, maybe she is just saying it because she wants to hurt you. Regardless, it is something you should discuss with your priest, as well as your counselor.


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## norajane

Does your wife refuse to attend any weddings of family and friends that are not Catholic? Jewish weddings, Greek weddings, Lutheran weddings, civil non-religious weddings, etc., are also "not what she believes in" so does she avoid going to every wedding but Catholic ones?

I don't base my attendance at family and friends weddings on whether I believe in their religious beliefs or not. I go because they are family and friends and they want to share their happiness with me.

Your wife is being mean to your family. And if she DOES attend non-Catholic weddings, then she is a hypocrite who is singling out your sister's beliefs specifically. She doesn't have to buy into gay marriage in order to be present at a wedding. 

But hey, who wants her there NOW that she's made her distaste for the couple known loud and clear? If I were the happy couple, I wouldn't and if I were you, I wouldn't. I'd be taking hte kids and she can sulk at home by herself with her beliefs..


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## Grogmiester

OP you've mentioned that you and your w have sat down with your children and as best you could explained your sisters relationship. Have you and your w discussed what happens after the wedding ceremony? 

Will there be any restrictions on your sister and her partners interaction with your children? What about What family gathering such as Christmas, Thanksgiving,, summer parties. What about sleep overs with their aunt (your sister)?

I'm not asking to "stir the pot" but was wondering because it seems to me there might be other instances where there could be conflict.


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## Steve1000

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what parents DO, is teach their kids to value what they value. We, as Christians, are supposed to teach our kids that the rules in the Bible don't change to fit society.
> ort. I think you should pray about this and see where your heart is led.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the rules of the bible DO change and have a long history of changing to fit society. Tatoos are clearly forbidden, but everyone conveniently ignores that now. Women no longer are expected to keep silent in churches. Female pastors would have been unthinkable in previous centuries. Most of us now believe that beating our children with a rod or determining a fair value for slaves is immoral.


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## Evinrude58

Perhaps they do in some churches, but not in all. WE may change the rules. God does not.

I'm not perfect. I understand that I may have a son or daughter in the future that might be gay. I struggle all the time wondering if it is genetic or a choice. In my job I've seen youngsters that had this obvious leaning from an extremely young age. 
I don't know what all to think about this, and am glad that I don't have to worry about it much so far.

I don't know if a person has some gene or disorder that makes them want to have sex with children or rape people, or if it's just totally a bad choice. I certainly don't have these urges and don't understand them in someone else. I certainly don't think that being gay is normal. But as long as someone's not hurting someone else by their actions, I don't feel compelled to interfere with their freedom. 

And I admit, that some of the things in the Bible I don't know how to adhere to. Such as turning the other cheek. I feel like letting someone get away with obvious bullying and bad treatment is a way of encouraging that behavior with someone else that can't or won't stand up to it-- and is therefore wrong to do nothing when you're capable of stopping it. I had a good explanation of this in class the other day and it pertained to the translation of turning the other cheek.
I don't believe that lots of things that I do are right, but I'm constantly working on doing better. I'm not accepting a lifestyle of repetitive behavior in a way that's against my religion. I'm constantly trying to get my life right with what I believe is right. I fail a lot, but I'm trying.

I don't believe women should be pastors or as combatants in the military. I'll be slammed for being sexist on top of being a bigot. That's ok with me. I know for a fact that there are things that I'm INTOLERANT of. Things that we should all NOT tolerate, in my opinion. Like stealing, murder, and lying under oath.

As to the marriage thing, I don't care if gays get married. I just am not going to attend their wedding. Is that so awful? If so, I feel people are intolerant of my views, not the opposite.

How tolerant is it that this lady is being labelled as a hypocritical intolerant by her refusal to attend the wedding. I suspect she wouldn't attend her own brother's wedding if he were gay. That's her right to refuse to validate things she believes to be wrong. I do believe attending the wedding is validating it. Just as all attendees at a wedding are there to support the bride and groom and witness their vows, and validate the legitimacy of the marriage. 

If two people were getting married in my family and one of the two was a drug addict, I would either go and voice my concerns, or I'd not go. In this case, isn't the correct thing to do just to not attend the wedding?

BTW, I don't like tattoos, don't have any, and don't want my future wife or my kids to have any. I'd be disappointed if they did. I don't think it ranks very high on my list of problems, but I don't like them just the same.
I have seen very few that I thought were "neat" or "cool", but have seen a couple. I just don't like 'em. Don't like 22" wheels on a car, or flat rimmed baseball hats. Should I continue? 

"I'm an old hippie and I don't know what to do, should I hang on to the old, should I grab on to the new? I'm old hippie, and this life is just a bust, I ain't trying to change nobody, I'm just tryin' real hard to adjust....." I like this song, kinda says it all for me.....


----------



## Steve1000

Evinrude58 said:


> Perhaps they do in some churches, but not in all. WE may change the rules. God does not.
> 
> I'm not perfect. I understand that I may have a son or daughter in the future that might be gay. I struggle all the time wondering if it is genetic or a choice. In my job I've seen youngsters that had this obvious leaning from an extremely young age.
> I don't know what all to think about this, and am glad that I don't have to worry about it much so far.
> 
> I don't know if a person has some gene or disorder that makes them want to have sex with children or rape people, or if it's just totally a bad choice. I certainly don't have these urges and don't understand them in someone else. I certainly don't think that being gay is normal. But as long as someone's not hurting someone else by their actions, I don't feel compelled to interfere with their freedom.
> 
> And I admit, that some of the things in the Bible I don't know how to adhere to. Such as turning the other cheek. I feel like letting someone get away with obvious bullying and bad treatment is a way of encouraging that behavior with someone else that can't or won't stand up to it-- and is therefore wrong to do nothing when you're capable of stopping it. I had a good explanation of this in class the other day and it pertained to the translation of turning the other cheek.
> I don't believe that lots of things that I do are right, but I'm constantly working on doing better. I'm not accepting a lifestyle of repetitive behavior in a way that's against my religion. I'm constantly trying to get my life right with what I believe is right. I fail a lot, but I'm trying.
> 
> I don't believe women should be pastors or as combatants in the military. I'll be slammed for being sexist on top of being a bigot. That's ok with me. I know for a fact that there are things that I'm INTOLERANT of. Things that we should all NOT tolerate, in my opinion. Like stealing, murder, and lying under oath.
> 
> As to the marriage thing, I don't care if gays get married. I just am not going to attend their wedding. Is that so awful? If so, I feel people are intolerant of my views, not the opposite.
> 
> How tolerant is it that this lady is being labelled as a hypocritical intolerant by her refusal to attend the wedding. I suspect she wouldn't attend her own brother's wedding if he were gay. That's her right to refuse to validate things she believes to be wrong. I do believe attending the wedding is validating it. Just as all attendees at a wedding are there to support the bride and groom and witness their vows, and validate the legitimacy of the marriage.
> 
> If two people were getting married in my family and one of the two was a drug addict, I would either go and voice my concerns, or I'd not go. In this case, isn't the correct thing to do just to not attend the wedding?
> 
> BTW, I don't like tattoos, don't have any, and don't want my future wife or my kids to have any. I'd be disappointed if they did. I don't think it ranks very high on my list of problems, but I don't like them just the same.
> I have seen very few that I thought were "neat" or "cool", but have seen a couple. I just don't like 'em. Don't like 22" wheels on a car, or flat rimmed baseball hats. Should I continue?
> 
> "I'm an old hippie and I don't know what to do, should I hang on to the old, should I grab on to the new? I'm old hippie, and this life is just a bust, I ain't trying to change nobody, I'm just tryin' real hard to adjust....." I like this song, kinda says it all for me.....


For what it's worth, I think you sound like a decent person. You are straight forward about your views and you seem to respect many views of others that may not be in agreement with yours. It's a good trait to not vilify others for simply disagreeing with us.


----------



## wistful_thinking

norajane said:


> Does your wife refuse to attend any weddings of family and friends that are not Catholic? Jewish weddings, Greek weddings, Lutheran weddings, civil non-religious weddings, etc., are also "not what she believes in" so does she avoid going to every wedding but Catholic ones?
> 
> I don't base my attendance at family and friends weddings on whether I believe in their religious beliefs or not. I go because they are family and friends and they want to share their happiness with me.
> 
> Your wife is being mean to your family. And if she DOES attend non-Catholic weddings, then she is a hypocrite who is singling out your sister's beliefs specifically. She doesn't have to buy into gay marriage in order to be present at a wedding.
> 
> But hey, who wants her there NOW that she's made her distaste for the couple known loud and clear? If I were the happy couple, I wouldn't and if I were you, I wouldn't. I'd be taking hte kids and she can sulk at home by herself with her beliefs..



This is nonsense; the RCC does not say that non Catholic weddings are a sin (and the specifically says as much). RCC does say that gay weddings are a sin and attending gay marriages is a sin.

Op--

Your wife having her own moral opinion on no way makes her unethical. 

You supporting your sister is your choice and not wrong. It makes you a good brother and great.

Now how can you reconcile these?

HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS has information on solving hard disagreements Heitler's book does too.


----------



## wistful_thinking

Steve1000 said:


> Evinrude58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps they do in some churches, but not in all. WE may change the rules. God does not.
> 
> I'm not perfect. I understand that I may have a son or daughter in the future that might be gay. I struggle all the time wondering if it is genetic or a choice. In my job I've seen youngsters that had this obvious leaning from an extremely young age.
> I don't know what all to think about this, and am glad that I don't have to worry about it much so far.
> 
> I don't know if a person has some gene or disorder that makes them want to have sex with children or rape people, or if it's just totally a bad choice. I certainly don't have these urges and don't understand them in someone else. I certainly don't think that being gay is normal. But as long as someone's not hurting someone else by their actions, I don't feel compelled to interfere with their freedom.
> 
> And I admit, that some of the things in the Bible I don't know how to adhere to. Such as turning the other cheek. I feel like letting someone get away with obvious bullying and bad treatment is a way of encouraging that behavior with someone else that can't or won't stand up to it-- and is therefore wrong to do nothing when you're capable of stopping it. I had a good explanation of this in class the other day and it pertained to the translation of turning the other cheek.
> I don't believe that lots of things that I do are right, but I'm constantly working on doing better. I'm not accepting a lifestyle of repetitive behavior in a way that's against my religion. I'm constantly trying to get my life right with what I believe is right. I fail a lot, but I'm trying.
> 
> I don't believe women should be pastors or as combatants in the military. I'll be slammed for being sexist on top of being a bigot. That's ok with me. I know for a fact that there are things that I'm INTOLERANT of. Things that we should all NOT tolerate, in my opinion. Like stealing, murder, and lying under oath.
> 
> As to the marriage thing, I don't care if gays get married. I just am not going to attend their wedding. Is that so awful? If so, I feel people are intolerant of my views, not the opposite.
> 
> How tolerant is it that this lady is being labelled as a hypocritical intolerant by her refusal to attend the wedding. I suspect she wouldn't attend her own brother's wedding if he were gay. That's her right to refuse to validate things she believes to be wrong. I do believe attending the wedding is validating it. Just as all attendees at a wedding are there to support the bride and groom and witness their vows, and validate the legitimacy of the marriage.
> 
> If two people were getting married in my family and one of the two was a drug addict, I would either go and voice my concerns, or I'd not go. In this case, isn't the correct thing to do just to not attend the wedding?
> 
> BTW, I don't like tattoos, don't have any, and don't want my future wife or my kids to have any. I'd be disappointed if they did. I don't think it ranks very high on my list of problems, but I don't like them just the same.
> I have seen very few that I thought were "neat" or "cool", but have seen a couple. I just don't like 'em. Don't like 22" wheels on a car, or flat rimmed baseball hats. Should I continue?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I'm an old hippie and I don't know what to do, should I hang on to the old, should I grab on to the new? I'm old hippie, and this life is just a bust, I ain't trying to change nobody, I'm just tryin' real hard to adjust....." I like this song, kinda says it all for me.....
> 
> 
> 
> For what it's worth, I think you sound like a decent person. You are straight forward about your views and you seem to respect many views of others that may not be in agreement with yours. It's a good trait to not vilify others for simply disagreeing with us.
Click to expand...

Very profound


----------



## norajane

wistful_thinking said:


> This is nonsense; the RCC does not say that non Catholic weddings are a sin (and the specifically says as much). RCC does say that gay weddings are a sin and attending gay marriages is a sin.


But they're not a sin as far as other religions are concerned. So it's a matter of tolerance for others' beliefs in this case, isn't it? Wouldn't a person who is tolerant of others' religions be able, for the sake of a family member, to be tolerant enough of their beliefs to attend a wedding?

For example, Reform Jews are happy to welcome lesbians and gays into their religion, and have lesbian and gay rabbis and perform gay wedding ceremonies. If one can set aside their own religious beliefs about Jesus to attend a Jewish wedding, why is it a step too far to politely set aside one's own religious beliefs about gay weddings - a family member holds different beliefs, so is it impossible to respect the ones about homosexuality? For a day, a family day?

Does the RCC say _attending _a gay wedding is a sin? Even if you attend because you love the sinner even though you don't love the sin?


----------



## Evinrude58

A wedding is a celebration. If you are there, aren't you celebrating the sin? 
I'm not throwing rocks at these folks for seeking happiness, but one can twist things however they want to fit what they want. It doesn't make it right. 
I'm just saying some people don't want to celebrate it and pretend it's ok. 
For those that do think it's ok, get after it. If Jesus doesn't cut us some slack, none of us are getting in. I'm sure not. 
But we should all be trying...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wistful_thinking

norajane said:


> wistful_thinking said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is nonsense; the RCC does not say that non Catholic weddings are a sin (and the specifically says as much). RCC does say that gay weddings are a sin and attending gay marriages is a sin.
> 
> 
> 
> But they're not a sin as far as other religions are concerned. So it's a matter of tolerance for others' beliefs in this case, isn't it? Wouldn't a person who is tolerant of others' religions be able, for the sake of a family member, to be tolerant enough of their beliefs to attend a wedding?
> 
> For example, Reform Jews are happy to welcome lesbians and gays into their religion, and have lesbian and gay rabbis and perform gay wedding ceremonies. If one can set aside their own religious beliefs about Jesus to attend a Jewish wedding, why is it a step too far to politely set aside one's own religious beliefs about gay weddings - a family member holds different beliefs, so is it impossible to respect the ones about homosexuality? For a day, a family day?
> 
> Does the RCC say _attending _a gay wedding is a sin? Even if you attend because you love the sinner even though you don't love the sin?
Click to expand...

Yes. It is absolutely a sin to attend a gay weddings for RCC. Therefore, according to her religion, she cannot attend. 

It is in no way a sin to attend a non Catholic wedding. Non Catholic weddings are not sinful and fine for RCC. 

She can do anything else, like meet them for lunch the next day ect. She can respect gays, but not attend a gay wedding. 

Attending a wedding is participating in the wedding, according to RCC; therefore, participating in a sin.

However, asking a priest is the best solution for RCC members.


----------



## Anon Pink

Evinrude58 said:


> I don't know if a person has some gene or disorder that makes them want to have sex with children or rape people, or if it's just totally a bad choice. I certainly don't have these urges and don't understand them in someone else. I certainly don't think that being gay is normal. But as long as someone's not hurting someone else by their actions, I don't feel compelled to interfere with their freedom.


Fascinating that you link homosexuality with child sex abuse and rape. I've seen and heard this from many "religious" people and frankly it only serves to show case their ignorance of human sexuality. I guess learning about human sexuality is a sin. 

Child sexual abuse, pedophilia, is a fetish that causes the person to sexually desire children. Children who are not sexually mature. Children who are unable to protect themselves and unable to CONSENT. Consent, or lack thereof, is what makes child sex abuse a CRIME and not a sexual kink.

Rape, is about humiliating and violently controlling another person. The rapist gets off on this humiliation, violence and control....and the fact that the victim does not CONSENT. Consent is what makes rape a CRIME and not a sexual kink.

Homosexuals are not child molesters, unless they're Catholic priests. Homosexual are not rapists, unless they are Catholic priests.




> I'm not accepting a lifestyle of repetitive behavior in a way that's against my religion.


If your objection to homosexuality and gay marriage is based on your religion you are indeed a bigot. The Christian faith and the bible have been used and subverted, by bigoted people, to commit all kinds of atrocious human behavior that resulted in enslavement, torture, and death to untold numbers of people over the two millenia it has been in existence. 

Personally, I don't care what your religious beliefs are. You are welcome to believe and feel anything you wish. The trouble happens when people like you get the idea that your beliefs should take precedence over anyone else's beliefs, or over anyone else's non beliefs. So if you insist upon hiding behin your bible to be a bigot, I'm okay with that. Just stay out of my governing system, stay out of my home, and stay the hell out of my uterus!




> As to the marriage thing, I don't care if gays get married. I just am not going to attend their wedding. Is that so awful? If so, I feel people are intolerant of my views, not the opposite.


It is not awful. Most of the gay people I know would not want a bigot at their wedding.

When you base your view on the tenuous understanding of an ancient document that has been altered and changed, several times, and used as the foundation for mass killings and enslavement, by picking a few words and phrases here and there, you are indeed picking a few words and phrases in order to justify your discomfort of and bigoted dislike of homosexuals.




> How tolerant is it that this lady is being labelled as a hypocritical intolerant by her refusal to attend the wedding. I suspect she wouldn't attend her own brother's wedding if he were gay. That's her right to refuse to validate things she believes to be wrong. I do believe attending the wedding is validating it. Just as all attendees at a wedding are there to support the bride and groom and witness their vows, and validate the legitimacy of the marriage.



Why should anyone be tolerant of the intolerance of others? when we tolerant intolerance, we allow intolerance to grow.

You are no hippie. I've known real hippies and you are on hippie.


----------



## Anon Pink

wistful_thinking said:


> Yes. It is absolutely a sin to attend a gay weddings for RCC. Therefore, according to her religion, she cannot attend.
> 
> It is in no way a sin to attend a non Catholic wedding. Non Catholic weddings are not sinful and fine for RCC.
> 
> She can do anything else, like meet them for lunch the next day ect. She can respect gays, but not attend a gay wedding.
> 
> Attending a wedding is participating in the wedding, according to RCC; therefore, participating in a sin.
> 
> However, asking a priest is the best solution for RCC members.



Can you quote the bible versus that prohibit you from attending a gay wedding? Because from what I've seen, the only reason why you shouldn't attend, according to Christianity, is because the marriage is not, and cannot be a covenant with God. And this is because two gay people cannot have sex that might, or should, result in a child. However, interestingly enough, it is okay to attend the wedding of two older people who are beyond childbearing age because it is accidental that their sexual encounters will not result in a child and therefore their covenant with God is true.

But it gets murkey, or even more murkey, when deciding to attend a marriage between two people who are not believers, or Christians. Because they are not believers, or Christians, their union is not a covenant with God and by attended you are not supporting a false promise.

The gymnastic logic theologians use against gay wedding is astounding.


----------



## joannacroc

Evinrude58 said:


> That's what parents DO, is teach their kids to value what they value. We, as Christians, are supposed to teach our kids that the rules in the Bible don't change to fit society.
> 
> I totally think you're in the wrong in this. She is right to not want your kids to go. She understands it's your sister and you want to support her.
> 
> Exactly what would you NOT support your sister in? There should be a limit to what you support. I think you should pray about this and see where your heart is led.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't follow. If you adhere strictly to the Bible's rules, you keep your head covered, refuse pig, shellfish, linen-wool clothes, believe all men need beards, have no tattoos, stay out of Church after childbirth until you're no longer "unclean," etc. etc. Exodus had a lot to say on the subject of slavery, too. Assuming you don't own any slaves? 

The world has evolved since the Bible was written, in some ways for the better. Granted, it contains a moral code which has great value and even beauty to many people. One might conclude that to stick rigidly to ALL the laws in the Bible, move to a compound and have no contact with the outside world. 

OP, by inviting your wife, who they likely know is against gay marriage, your sister and your family were extending an olive branch and trying to include your family to stand with them. To refuse to attend seems pretty churlish on your wife's behalf, but to refuse to let you bring your kids seems to not be very Christian to me. 

Much of American morality is VERY different from English morality, I grant you, but I was also raised by Christians and the homophobia in the US is almost completely alien to me. I don't understand it at all.


----------



## 225985

Anon Pink said:


> I wish I'd never seen this thread, I used to like some of you.


I still like you, even though I think your advice to OP is wrong. 

Gays and lesbians should be free to marry as they wish. People should be free to practice religion as they wish. 

OP did a bait and switch. He converted for the wrong reasons (IMO probably just so he could get into the young lady's pants) and now is unhappy with what he initially agreed to (raise the kids as Catholics, with all that entails.)

It is interesting to see so many people demand tolerance for gay weddings but are intolerant of religious freedom and expression.

This is why is is so important to discuss religion, finances, family planning, life goals etc with your intended marriage partner prior to marriage. This applies to both opposite sex and same sex couples.


----------



## 225985

joannacroc said:


> homophobia in the US is almost completely alien to me. I don't understand it at all.


Do not confuse "homophobia" with the practice of religious principles. They are VERY different. Skinheads who assault gays are homophobes. A mom raising her kids within her religion and passing on her religious principles is not homophobia (although you might disagree.)

One definition of homophobia is "dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people." For those who are devoutly religious, they are against the sin, not the person IMO. OP's wife is against the gay wedding, not against OP' sister (as far as I can read from this.) Yes, some parents do shun their gay children either for religious reasons or because they are homophobes or because of their own insecurities. 

You think morality is relative, to be adjusted by men/women. That is fine. Other's think morality is more defined by a higher power and less open to how people want to modify it to fit their needs and wants. They have the right to think that way, as do you.


----------



## Kivlor

If everyone here is so interested in a philosophical discussion on tolerance, acceptance, gay marriage and religion, I'd recommend starting a thread in the Politics and Religion section. In the mean time, please, please, please, just focus on the OP here. 

@needalittlehelp you converted to RCC. Unless things have changed since I stopped attending, you should have attended plenty of marital counseling. You should have spent a significant amount of time on the Catechism prior to conversion, as the RCC doesn't just baptize adults without serious discussion of the faith. If you aren't okay with your W's religious views, she needs to know. 

If you lied to her and the RCC about converting just to "make things easier" she should know. This is grounds for an Annulment in the RCC. In the eyes of the RCC your W married you under false pretenses. Your first post shows that your M meets the criteria of "Fraud"; of "Willful Exclusion of Permanence"; of "Error Regarding Marital Indissolubility" and of "Error Regarding Marital Sacramental Dignity" according to RCC Canon Law.

Do your W a favor and at least let her know the truth, so she can decide how to go forward with her life. 

I suggest you drop the wedding issue with her. Go on your own. If you are insistent on taking the kids to the wedding, talk to your priest. If your priest is okay, ask him to talk about it with your W. 

You have tremendously larger issues in your M than "should I force my W and kids to go to my lesbian sister's wedding." In fact, that would be so far from the top of my list of problems you need to address as to not even register.


----------



## Kivlor

Here, I decided to create the Roman Catholicism and Gay Marriage Thread to help you all out and move the arguments out of this thread and into that one. 

This way we can try to keep this thread focused on what the OP should do, or shouldn't do. And he doesn't have to read page after page of flame wars.


----------



## wistful_thinking

OP--

Have you read any of the books that were suggested. I think you probably both need to make improvements.


----------



## aine

6301 said:


> If her beliefs are so rigid and she wont go to a wedding of a same sex couple then how could one not look at the child abuse history of the R.C. church and not feel equally disgusted and want no parts of it.
> 
> Reminds me of a song back in the 60's by Barry McGuire called Eve Of Destruction" The last sentence in the last verse says it all. It says, "Hate your next door neighbor but don't forget to say grace." That pretty much sums it all up.


I am repeating myself but your argument is flawed. If you are American, are you responsible for all the murders of innocent people carried out in Iraq due to the phantom WMD? After all as a citizen in a democracy you are responsible for voting in those in office. Gosh, I sound ridiculous, now THAT is how you sound!


----------



## RayceCarrington

Your married you have to obey your wife and just do what she says, if you don't agree with her just say nothing. That's the key to a long marriage. She obviously doesn't give a crap about your feelings. She's got you on the not having the money to go to the wedding thing, so that's her excuse she can use when really she doesn't give a crap about you and what you'd like to do


----------



## MachoMcCoy

ConanHub said:


> The other issues aside, I'm with your wife about the gay wedding.
> 
> I wouldn't attend either and wouldn't want my children to attend.
> 
> If you believe something is wrong, you don't endorse it even if you love someone.
> 
> She believes it to be a sinful act. You desire her to partake and endorse, by her presence and the involvement of your children, in a sinful ceremony.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


13 people "liked" this homophobic rant?

And I read your other thread. Your wife doesn't love you anyhow, so bail. She claims to have a "normal" libido but still NEVER approaches you. And turns you down most of the time when you approach her? 

She doesn't love you. Stay or go, I don't care. I've stayed in my toxic marriage, you can too. Just know it IS toxic.


----------



## soccermom2three

Catholic here. I would really like to see the RCC Canon law where it's a sin to attend a gay marriage. Can someone quote it please?


----------



## 225985

MachoMcCoy said:


> And I read your other thread. Your wife doesn't love you anyhow, so bail. She claims to have a "normal" libido but still NEVER approaches you. And turns you down most of the time when you approach her?
> 
> She doesn't love you. Stay or go, I don't care. I've stayed in my toxic marriage, you can too. Just know it IS toxic.


My take on his other thread is that he did a bait and switch. She has remained true to herself. Him, not so much but I understand and empathize with OP. His needs either have changed or have really never been met. 

OP, you are not the same person that married your wife. You now want different things and do not support the way she is and way she always will be. You complain about the sex issue. She complains about the religion issue. You must of course know by now you married a strict devout Catholic girl. If you cannot accept that, be graceful and part amicably with her from the marriage. Do not dishonor yourself by cheating, regardless of how you can justify it in your mind.

Be a good father. Be a good ex-husband.


----------



## 225985

soccermom2three said:


> Catholic here. I would really like to see the RCC Canon law where it's a sin to attend a gay marriage. Can someone quote it please?


Hi Mom. You can google this topic. I found below in 15 seconds. I am not Catholic enough to fully understand it. This is just one article from one website.

1. The Catholic Church teaches, through its ordinary magisterium and with infallible certainty, that marriage exists only between one man and one woman. CDF, “Considerations” (2003) passim; CCC 1601-1608; CCEO (1990) 776; 1983 CIC 1055 § 1; Rite of Marriage (1969) n. 2; Vatican II, Gaudium et spes (1965) 48; Pius XI, Casti connubii (1930) 6, 20, 23; Leo XIII, Arcanum (1880) 5, 24; Matthew XIX: 4-6; and Genesis II: 21-24. There is no evidence of ecclesiastical authority ever supporting any other definition of marriage.

1. Note. It is possible that this teaching is proposed as an object of belief (credenda, per Canon 750 § 1, doubt or denial of which assertion would be heresy under Canon 751 and thus sanctionable under Canon 1364 § 1); at a minimum, however, the Church proposes the man-woman assertion as necessarily to be held (tenenda) in order “to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith” (Canon 750 § 2), rendering those who “obstinately reject” the assertion liable to “a just penalty” if, having been duly admonished, they refuse to retract (Canon 1371, 2º).

2. The Catholic Church has the right and duty “always and everywhere to announce moral principles, even about the social order, and to render judgment concerning any human affairs insofar as the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls requires it.” 1983 CIC 747 § 2; CCC 2246.

3. Catholics who promote “same-sex marriage” act contrary to Canon 209 § 1 and should not approach for holy Communion per Canon 916. Depending on the facts of the case, they also risk having holy Communion withheld from them under Canon 915, being rebuked under Canon 1339 § 2, and/or being sanctioned under Canon 1369 for gravely injuring good morals.

3. Note. The situation of Catholic politicians lending support to “same-sex marriage” is to be assessed as above, with special attention being paid to the heightened responsibility that civil servants have to protect the common good. CDF, “Considerations” (2003) 10; CCC 2235-2237, 2244; 1983 CIC 1326 § 1, 2.

4. The Catholic Church would regard any attempt by persons of the same sex to marry, regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof, as null. CCC 1603; 1983 CIC 1055 § 1.

5. Catholics who attempt a “same-sex marriage” act contrary to Canon 209 § 1 and should not approach for holy Communion per Canon 916. Depending on the facts of the case, they also risk having holy Communion withheld from them under Canon 915, being rebuked under Canon 1339 § 2, and/or being sanctioned under Canon 1379 for simulation of a sacrament. Moreover, Catholics who assist others toward attempting a “same-sex marriage” cooperate in the bad act of those others, which cooperation is liable to moral assessment in accord with the usual principles applicable to cooperation with evil and, under certain facts, according to the canonical principles applying to cooperation in crime per Canon 1329 and/or scandal per Canon 1339 § 2, etc.

5. Note. Catholics who have attempted a “same-sex marriage” or who have assisted another toward a “same-sex marriage” can be reconciled morally under the usual conditions by sacramental Confession (Canon 959) or by a ‘perfect act of contrition’ per CCC 1452; they can be reconciled canonically, if necessary, in accord with applicable law.


----------



## Maricha75

@blueinbr, I am not Catholic, either, but I pretty much got the point of what you shared. #5 is the one specific to the situation. Basically, it says "don't help them to get married", but makes provisions in case they do (confession, acts of contrition). But, basically, the position is "don't do it". My guess is OP wife would rather NOT add extra acts to whatever she already has to confess.


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> @blueinbr, I am not Catholic, either, but I pretty much got the point of what you shared. #5 is the one specific to the situation. Basically, it says "don't help them to get married", but makes provisions in case they do (confession, acts of contrition). But, basically, the position is "don't do it". My guess is OP wife would rather NOT add extra acts to whatever she already has to confess.


Good point here. OP's wife can go against church doctrine, go to the wedding, but then go to confession afterwards. That though is a technicality and goes against the spirit of the doctrine. I doubt OP's wife will take that position, as that would allow her to steal, commit adultery etc and then get absolved (I think that is right word.)


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Good point here. OP's wife can go against church doctrine, go to the wedding, but then go to confession afterwards. That though is a technicality and goes against the spirit of the doctrine. I doubt OP's wife will take that position, as that would allow her to steal, commit adultery etc and then get absolved (I think that is right word.)


Ding! Ding! Ding!
Exactly. And this is why I asked how his wife acts with the sister and fiancée. I have a good friend who did not go to her brother's wedding a couple years ago. I think they did the official/legal ceremony a few months ago. Anyway, her brother knows how she feels, and he does not hold it against her. Funny thing about that... she still does family stuff, laughs and jokes with her brother and brother-in-law, etc... yet did not attend their wedding, for the same reason as OP wife has given. (My friend is not Catholic, and she is not my denomination, either.) My point is that just because she doesn't go to the wedding, it doesn't mean she won't participate in family functions afterward.


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## unhappy2000

Attending a wedding, even a gay wedding isn't against any religion. Your religion is what you believe. You can still attend and believe it is wrong. God judges you on your personal beliefs and actions. HE does not judge you because you saw something you don't believe in. Plus a gay wedding is not a religious ceremony. It is simply witnessing two people confess their love for one another. Whether you believe in this lifestyle or not, you can still attend because you support your spouse. This is also a great way to discuss this with your children. I would know, my sister just got married to her girlfriend. Don't discriminate ! God does't like that either! I took my 13 year old daughter to see her aunts get married. That doesn't mean that I agree or even understand their relationship. Good luck.


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## Maricha75

unhappy2000 said:


> Attending a wedding, even a gay wedding isn't against any religion. Your religion is what you believe. You can still attend and believe it is wrong. God judges you on your personal beliefs and actions. HE does not judge you because you saw something you don't believe in. Plus a gay wedding is not a religious ceremony. It is simply witnessing two people confess their love for one another. Whether you believe in this lifestyle or not, you can still attend because you support your spouse. This is also a great way to discuss this with your children. I would know, my sister just got married to her girlfriend. Don't discriminate ! God does't like that either! I took my 13 year old daughter to see her aunts get married. That doesn't mean that I agree or even understand their relationship. Good luck.


Conversely, he cannot force his wife to go along with something when she feels convicted, so strongly, about attending. If the ceremony is performed by a minister, in a church, it is usually viewed as a religious ceremony by those in attendance. And, even if it is not performed by a minister, many DO see it as a religious ceremony, anyway, because of tradition. 

You took your daughter to your sister's wedding, and that's fine... for you. Not everyone agrees with your decision. Some do feel obligated to speak up at weddings, at the "speak now or forever hold your peace" part. So, rather than cause a scene, they do not attend. My pastor friend did that twice that I know of, with close friends. And neither held it against him, nor did the the guys' parents, nor their new wives. In fact, we all understood. At that time, I didn't have that conviction. Now, I do. So, if I were in that position, I would decline the invitation. That isn't just with same sex marriage, though. It would be anyone of my denomination marrying someone of another denomination/religion. If invited, I would talk to the person, explaining why I will not attend.


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## wistful_thinking

unhappy2000 said:


> Attending a wedding, even a gay wedding isn't against any religion. Your religion is what you believe. You can still attend and believe it is wrong. God judges you on your personal beliefs and actions. HE does not judge you because you saw something you don't believe in. Plus a gay wedding is not a religious ceremony. It is simply witnessing two people confess their love for one another. Whether you believe in this lifestyle or not, you can still attend because you support your spouse. This is also a great way to discuss this with your children. I would know, my sister just got married to her girlfriend. Don't discriminate ! God does't like that either! I took my 13 year old daughter to see her aunts get married. That doesn't mean that I agree or even understand their relationship. Good luck.


This is the opposite of what the RCC says.


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## MJJEAN

blueinbr said:


> Good point here. OP's wife can go against church doctrine, go to the wedding, but then go to confession afterwards. That though is a technicality and goes against the spirit of the doctrine. I doubt OP's wife will take that position, as that would allow her to steal, commit adultery etc and then get absolved (I think that is right word.)


This is the sin of Presumption.



What is the sin of presumption? | Catholic Answers


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