# Trouble breathing



## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

I've read lots on the site already but need to get this out cuz it's killing me; it's going to be long...

For work, I was traveling with a colleague for 2mo, and we were in constant contact with each other and started to move from a work relationship to an emotional one. It started when I started to feel disconnected from my wife and 3yo.

Marriage has been silently troubled for 3 years. Wife miserable (now thinking post partum), me too but neither of us had the tools to fix things. We never talked and grew apart and, for me, resentment grew. Sex life nearly nonexistent since the birth; differences in child rearing styles, etc.

Before I knew it, I was hooked on the OW but fought it (sometimes with some pretty destructive behaviors). Happily, or so I thought, the OW just wanted to be colleagues so that kept me in my little box; I was hurting but coping. Yes, I love her but you all know that already.

It did make me question my marriage though and I started to think of all of the reasons that I was unhappy and this OW gave me hope that maybe there was someone out there that I could connect with, if not her (someone else, right, who am I kidding?). So I decided to try to say goodbye to my life to see how it would feel. It hurt but was bearable. Then I said it [silently] to my wife and it was bearable. Then I said [out loud] it to my daughter and within 10 seconds my face was buried in the carpet, I was sobbing and my 3yo was comforting me; 

The freight train plowed right through me then and reality hit me. Everything that I'd been casually thinking about rolled over me. My wife as a single parent (because the wife nearly always gets custody), not being there for my daughter, failed marriage, financial aspects, etc, etc, etc.

The next day, the OW was in the train station with tears in her eyes; she'd just finished her break up with her bf and was vulnerable. Later that week I think she just said, "oh screw it he wants it" and started reciprocating [at least, that is what I thought]. Given what I'd just been through a few days earlier and the fact that I had real feelings for OW, the idea of being a 'rebound' destroyed me. I was dealing with the guilt, hurt and the desire and knew that if I went there I'd fall into her so far that I'd lose my daughter; everything collapsed.

So I did what any adult does; I screwed it up even further. I talked to OW and told her that I was getting signals from her and that it was doing my head in and that we needed to talk. She got defensive [gee, why?] and said that no signals were ever sent [yes, they were pretty obvious ones too and some of them make me wonder the depth of what was going on in her head] and that was the end of it; the rest of the talk never happened. That weekend I went home and confessed part of the story to my wife and, over successive weekends, let a little more out.

The OW and I were stuck traveling together for another 2 weeks; the first week she just cried every time she looked at me. The second week she wouldn't look at me except to kill me with her eyes or throw barbs at me. Through all of this, I put my game face on pretended that I was okay, bla bla bla; every night I went back to my room and cried myself to sleep.

When I tried to apologize she said that we would "never mention this again and just be colleagues". Okay, that was closure, I thought, I could go about killing what I was feeling.

Except I haven't been able to and it's been nearly 2 months. I see her at work and I stop breathing, i can't get her out of my head. Part of the problem is that I really like this woman [to the very core], the other part is that she still cries when she sees me. What causes that hurt, I don't know, but I want to take it away from her. The OW is a truly wonderful woman and I could see the guilt being a huge thing for her. So that's what I tell myself but every once in a while, the latter pops into my head and it takes me days to recover. I'm still caught in the addiction and I can't get out of it. I've tried to kill it; talk to the OW to get some closure [she won't talk to me] and then avoid her while ignoring it, drowning it, getting angry (doesn't work when I carry this much guilt), rationalize it, analyze it, criticize it, research it, mock it [and me], etc etc etc.

It. Just. Won't. Die. 

I'm acting like a 16yo kid. No matter how hard I beat my head against the wall, I just can't beat it out of me and it's pure torture.

My marriage? My wife is an angel. She has cried through all of this but she respects me for telling her, she says she forgives me, she says she wants to stay together, she hugs me, kisses me, comforts me on those very rare occasions when [for no apparent reason] I just start sobbing. She is being so strong through all of this; whether that is through denial or whether the anti depressants are doing their job, I don't know. But I just can't emotionally re-engage. There is too much hurt, guilt and conflict, etc. I'm even turning down sex, which was in short supply before all of this happened. I'm putting my wife through hell and I just can't stop it! I've put this OW through hell too (which seems to have done the trick actually because I think she's doing better)!

Our marriage had problems in the first place, that's a given (and I've identified what I see those are and communicated it to my wife), or this wouldn't have happened. But how can I work on my marriage when I'm this conflicted? I'm not even sure I wan't to be married anymore. I've talked to the one person that I can talk to and they've suggested marriage counseling. I suggested this to the wife but neither of us have moved on it; we're just carrying on as if nothing happened (this is how my wife deals with things) which will only end in D [you don't need to tell me that].

But how is marriage counseling going to do us any good if the counselor asks me to talk, to my wife, about how much I love this OW? "Yes, it's a chemical addiction... dopamine... bla bla bla...". She doesn't need to hear this! And when I look back at our marriage, and the problems that we've had, I wonder if I really do want to be married to her anymore or if I'm just staying for my daughter (remember, I said my goodbyes already; how can I go back?). Is that just the addiction talking? Of course it is. Or is it? I don't know? No, it has to be. But.... Aaaaaaaargh!!!!!!! *spiral* *spiral* *spiral*

I'm the guy that people come to with problems. I'm the guy that understands people and their motives; what's going on inside their heads. I am the grounded and centered one. But I'm so far off my center right now and I can't find that calm that I rely on. <-- self pity

I've NEVER hurt anyone like this, never mind *everyone* around me. I've also never felt like this about another woman and when it comes down to it, that's what's truly crushing me. The what if? I keep telling myself that there is no hope and that any decision that I make MUST NOT involve the OW. Who am I kidding? Not even me anymore.

I need to kill this so I can start making rational decisions again. Help? Please?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

You're deep in the fog. How about you quit your freaking job and go NC with this OW? Write a NC letter to her in front of your BW. Find other employment. Your BW and family don't deserve what you're doing to them. And give her FULL DISCLOSURE, stop rationalizing that you're trying to protect her. She needs to know the full truth about you so she can decide if she still wants to be married to you. 

Yeah, you said your goodbyes. Wait until your BW says her goodbyes to you and no longer wants you. You'll snap out of the fog then when the full reality of what you've done and are about to lose finally hits you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> You're deep in the fog. How about you quit your freaking job and go NC with this OW? Write a NC letter to her in front of your BW. Find other employment. Your BW and family don't deserve what you're doing to them. And give her FULL DISCLOSURE, stop rationalizing that you're trying to protect her. She needs to know the full truth about you so she can decide if she still wants to be married to you.
> 
> Yeah, you said your goodbyes. Wait until your BW says her goodbyes to you and no longer wants you. You'll snap out of the fog then when the full reality of what you've done and are about to lose finally hits you.


:iagree:

You have to find another job where you do not see the OW. What is the chance that you will have to travel with her again?

As long as you still run into her you will not be able to get over this.


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## GoingNowhere (Nov 13, 2011)

You've said your goodbye's, but they are still there. You mentioned how your wife supports you "through all of this"... She is still there, comforting you, when she so desperately needs comfort, too. You've said your goodbyes, but you know that they are not "GONE"....

It angered me that you seem to care about the pain and damage you inflicted on the OW more than the pain and damage you inflicted upon your own wife and daughter. You acknowledged both, yes, but it's obvious to see where you concern mostly lies.

You mentioned you realize it's an addiction. Easier said than done: find a new job. I realize how that statement can ignite laughter in anyone. It IS laughable. But you see her (or the chemicals the thought/sight of her cause your brain to release) as an addiction..... 

So is it smart for a drug addict to be around drugs?


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

Yeah, its like being a drug addict working in a meth lab. Not a good combination. You need to quit your job pronto.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Been there. Done what you're doing. You recognize it as an addiction so treat it like one. You know that it's painful to break an addiction. You know that the addict must not partake of the source of his addiction in anyway. You know that if the addict can endure the pain and not partake long enough eventually the addiction will break and gradually the pain will fade. That's really all there is to it. You just have to man up, steel yourself to the pain, and endure it until it fades. 

As far as "good byes" and "closure" - they're B.S. Complete and total. I tried to get one to and it's just not there. Affairs, even purely emotional ones, only end badly. Just accept it and put it behind you. Write your doubts about your marriage and wife off to affair fog and addiction. Go and maintain no contact with this woman and focus on your wife. She needs you right now and you need her. Every time you think about the OW think about your wife and child. 

If you do the hard work, maintain no contact, and put your energy into your wife it does get better. I promise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

What would he easier and less painful : new job or a divorce?

Get the new job ASAP and get away from the OW, you are just feeding yourself a steady daily dose of EA chemicals and you need to stop that.

Btw, stop turning down sex. Sex helps you in the bonding process and it can help you reconnect with your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

> find a new job. I realize how that statement can ignite laughter in anyone. It IS laughable


Yes, it is. This advice might be relevant to people who work in an office with desks that face each other but that's not the case here. In fact, I question whether this is good advice at all. Yes, there are probably some for whom this advice is critical, but I don't think that I'm one of them.

My job involves lots of travel (and so does hers). It's likely that we won't be traveling together anytime soon (though I guess it's not impossible) as I told my boss that we shouldn't for a while.



> Your BW and family don't deserve what you're doing to them. And give her FULL DISCLOSURE, stop rationalizing that you're trying to protect her.


I have given her full disclosure but I did it over the course of a couple of weeks. The initial admission and then the details as they became relevant. This gave us both time to deal with aspects of it in pieces before moving onto the next level of detail. I have always answered her questions honestly, even when it hurt to do so. Please don't mistake my hesitation to continuously revisit my feelings for OW in counseling with my not having disclosed them to my BW.



> You mentioned how your wife supports you "through all of this"... She is still there, comforting you, when she so desperately needs comfort, too. You've said your goodbyes, but you know that they are not "GONE"....


This is true and I know that this is extremely hard on her. But then, I'm also giving her comfort where I can, while still being honest with her. I'm fully aware of what I will lose though, that emotional freight train is what stopped me in my tracks. On the flip side, I've done quite a lot of research on this, including costs of D (if it goes well or badly), child support, alimony, visitation, custody, etc etc etc. I simply can't afford a D but whether we stay together or not is not wholly up to me.

That I've researched this at all will probably be a red flag to some but it's all part of the learning process for me.



> Write your doubts about your marriage and wife off to affair fog and addiction.


I think this is bad advice too. There are problems in our marriage, fundamental ones, and those need to be dealt with if it is going to survive. However, I'm not making any decisions until I've gotten some clarity, which is why I want to 'kill it'; ergo the OP.



> It angered me that you seem to care about the pain and damage you inflicted on the OW more than the pain and damage you inflicted upon your own wife and daughter. You acknowledged both, yes, but it's obvious to see where you concern mostly lies.


Contrary to popular belief, I think that you can love more than one person at a time. And it hurts when you see someone that you love crying, especially when you know that it's you that's caused that pain. I've had years to get used to my wife crying; it doesn't phase me anymore because I've developed tools to deal with it; not so with OW. As for causing my daughter harm that's not happened yet and it's something that I'm trying to avoid if I can.



> Yeah, you said your goodbyes. Wait until your BW says her goodbyes to you and no longer wants you. You'll snap out of the fog then when the full reality of what you've done and are about to lose finally hits you.


I'll deal with those consequences if that's what is going to happen. There has been a betrayal [by modern societal standards anyways] and that changes the landscape. It's up to my wife if she can forgive me or not and, for now, she has; that may change and if it does that is out of my hands. If she can't forgive me or if one of us decides that the marriage isn't going to work then we need to end this marriage sooner rather than later, not in 4-5 years when we've had time to build up a bunch of resentment which will only make the D more problematic than it needs to be. 



> Btw, stop turning down sex. Sex helps you in the bonding process and it can help you reconnect with your wife.


Right now we are disconnected, which is painful but if I'm honest, I "like" it this way. It allows me to continue to be in the same mindset that I've been in for years. It's also a protection mechanism in case things do go badly. Any offer of sex at this stage is somewhat disingenuous; it's not about rekindling love, it's about trying to re-bond out of fear, desperation, hope, etc. So what happens when the chemicals wear off? We are still faced with the same issues that we had before except now we've wasted more of our lives not dealing with it. No.

I am killing the addiction, then I'll proactively push for marriage counseling, then decisions/commitments will be made.

Yes, I am sure that my wife takes this as a rejection and that hurts but, in this, I've been in her shoes for years. Some will say that's just me justifying, others will say that sounds preposterous, others will say I'm being petty. *shrug*



> You know that if the addict can endure the pain and not partake long enough eventually the addiction will break and gradually the pain will fade. That's really all there is to it. You just have to man up, steel yourself to the pain, and endure it until it fade


Now this I consider to be rational.


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## happy_husband (Dec 11, 2011)

TCx said:


> Contrary to popular belief, I think that you can love more than one person at a time. And it hurts when you see someone that you love crying, especially when you know that it's you that's caused that pain.
> 
> I'll deal with those consequences if that's what is going to happen. There has been a betrayal [by modern societal standards anyways] and that changes the landscape. It's up to my wife if she can forgive me or not and, for now, she has; that may change and if it does that is out of my hands. If she can't forgive me or if one of us decides that the marriage isn't going to work then we need to end this marriage sooner rather than later, not in 4-5 years when we've had time to build up a bunch of resentment which will only make the D more problematic than it needs to be.


Your situation crystallizes something that I've been thinking after reading a lot of these threads. Given that a majority of marriages will involve infidelity (as currently defined), what if the assumption of monogamy is really the problem?

According to most of the threads I've read, it's the lying and sneaking that are by far the most painful, not the violation of emotional or sexual exclusivity as such.

So if marriage didn't automatically imply exclusivity in sexual (or emotional, in the case of an EA) intimacy, how much pain would sharing that intimacy with a third party, with full disclosure to the spouse, actually cause?

Of course, this analysis doesn't excuse the violation of the marital agreement, but it is food for thought.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Why do you feel the need to argue point for point? What is it you hope to gain from being here? Remember this is the internet, you have to take what is good and relevant and ignore the rest. Should you literally quit your job - I don't know and neither do the people here. The point you're missing in your haste to debate us is that you have to maintain no contact at all cost. 

Are some of the betrayed spouses here harsh - maybe even bitter? You bet. Are they merciless on a cheater who expresses anything other than complete remorse? Absolutely. Do you blame them? What reaction did you expect? Even the responses that are obviously over the top and laced with anger and derision are helpful if you'll listen. I got them to when I first came here - they help to keep the pain your wife is in and the gravity of what you did in perspective. You don't have to, and probably shouldn't act on all of them literally, but you should listen to all of them. 

Parts of your post sound like me when I first came here. Maybe reading it will help you - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...a-committed-wife-cant-get-ow-out-my-mind.html

Your first post sounds like you are remorseful but your response sounds like you are still trying to defend your affair. Which is it? I still say you recognize your current set of emotions as an addiction and you're right. So what do you want? Do you want to reconcile with your wife, do you want to stay married to her? Or are you just trying to clear your head enough to make a "rational" decision between your AP and your wife?

Sorry to be so pointed with questions but I can't figure out where you're coming from. If you want help running the OW out of your head and recommitting to your wife - I, and other cheaters here, can certainly share our experiences doing the same thing.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Why do you feel the need to argue point for point? What is it you hope to gain from being here? Remember this is the internet, you have to take what is good and relevant and ignore the rest. Should you literally quit your job - I don't know and neither do the people here. The point you're missing in your haste to debate us is that you have to maintain no contact at all cost.


I responded to expand on information that I've given and to question what I'm hearing. For a bunch of people to come out and say, "you need to quit your job" with having no insight into my situation is dangerous and, frankly, irresponsible (and reeks of Pavlov).

People who come to this thread are generally hurting, confused, scared and extremely vulnerable and might take this kind of advice very seriously.

There are many ways to deliver advice. The core of the message was certainly, "You need NC and you need to achieve that somehow." The rest should have been, "Perhaps you have some holidays that you can take, perhaps you need to move departments, perhaps you need to quit your job".

I didn't miss the point about NC; it's already in effect (though I admit that is more the OW doing than mine). I want closure because I want that clarity of mind so I can deal with it. But like you said, I'm not going to get it so I guess that is closure of a sort.



sigma1299 said:


> Are some of the betrayed spouses here harsh - maybe even bitter? You bet. Are they merciless on a cheater who expresses anything other than complete remorse? Absolutely. Do you blame them? What reaction did you expect? Even the responses that are obviously over the top and laced with anger and derision are helpful if you'll listen. I got them to when I first came here - they help to keep the pain your wife is in and the gravity of what you did in perspective. You don't have to, and probably shouldn't act on all of them literally, but you should listen to all of them.


Again, this is a rational response. Thank you.



sigma1299 said:


> Parts of your post sound like me when I first came here. Maybe reading it will help you - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...a-committed-wife-cant-get-ow-out-my-mind.html


Thanks, I've read it and drawn some information and even some comfort from it.



sigma1299 said:


> Your first post sounds like you are remorseful but your response sounds like you are still trying to defend your affair. Which is it?


I would say neither. I'm trying to find a path forward. This is going to sound cold but I don't feel any remorse for falling for someone else, nor am I trying to defend it. It happened and these things happen, for any number of reasons. Focusing on that isn't going to accomplish anything. I'm trying to deal with it and learn from it and move on.

Where I do feel remorse is in the results of it all. So many people are hurting and it's because of something that I've done.



sigma1299 said:


> So what do you want? Do you want to reconcile with your wife, do you want to stay married to her? Or are you just trying to clear your head enough to make a "rational" decision between your AP and your wife?


AP? (Affair Person?)

What I want:


To reconcile with my wife and reconnect with her.
To make my marriage work by fixing the things that screwed it up in the first place [even though I know that some can't be fixed so to accept them instead]
For my wife to grow up.
For me to grow up.
Not lose my daughter.
Divorce.
Not to make my wife a single mom.
Not to abdicate my responsibilities as a father.
Not to suffer financial ruin at the hands of a divorce.
To run to the OW, even though I know she won't have me.
To 'f' my brains into oblivion in the hopes that releases some of the pent up frustration
To drown myself in a bathtub filled with whisky.

I could fill several pages but this lists the most salient points at this time. You'll note that some are in direct conflict with others.

I'm hurting, confused, scared and extremely vulnerable. I'm lost.

I will continue to be lost until either I make a decision or the decision is made for me. So, my emotional compass is spinning because there are too many magnets in the room. So if I kill the feelings for the OW, that's one less magnet/variable that confuses me. If the emotional compass is still spinning after that, then I'll remove another magnet. 

The thought process, though, is that I've been with my wife for years and while it's not always been wonderful it's generally been good (up until the last few years). There have always been undercurrents of dissatisfaction with certain aspects of the marriage and my efforts to address them have always been unsuccessful, in part because I have always lacked the right tools to do so and because BW and I are very different people in how we deal with conflict.

I 'fix' problems, my wife ignores them completely which drives me even more insane which pushes me harder to fix the problem which... <endless cycle>

So nothing gets resolved, I get frustrated and my wife shuts down. Some may say that the EA might be a wake up call to both of us and that it will give us the catalyst that we need to fix our marriage. But I'm honestly wondering if I want to spend more years trying finding that out. Neither of us is getting any younger and recovering from a divorce only gets harder as you age.

Anyways, what I do know is that this obsession with OW is not healthy. I know that when BW is around I don't want a divorce; when she's not, I do. I know that rushing into any decision here, without first finding my calm, has some pretty horrible consequences.



sigma1299 said:


> Sorry to be so pointed with questions but I can't figure out where you're coming from. If you want help running the OW out of your head and recommitting to your wife - I, and other cheaters here, can certainly share our experiences doing the same thing.


Pointed -> Good. You'll notice that I, too, am pointed.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

happy_husband said:


> Your situation crystallizes something that I've been thinking after reading a lot of these threads. Given that a majority of marriages will involve infidelity (as currently defined), what if the assumption of monogamy is really the problem?
> 
> According to most of the threads I've read, it's the lying and sneaking that are by far the most painful, not the violation of emotional or sexual exclusivity as such.
> 
> ...


I've wondered about this since I was in my mid teens and, in truth, it's really only useful as a philosophical discussion because the social factors required to make something like this work are so insanely hard to change at this point that it's almost impossible. There are just too many things set against this kind of arrangement that discussing it as mainstream behavior is almost moot.

Our entire society would have to change it's perspective on sex, marriage, trust, acceptance, etc. The practice would have to be openly accepted by all of the biggest institutions out there... namely the churches, policy makers and even the laws on marriage.

Monogamy is so ingrained into our society that I don't think that it's ever going to be defeated as the predominant method of human relationships. And for this, I truly wish that St. Paul had never been born.

IMHO, I think that polygamy is probably the more likely scenario to work in the current societal framework. We are already making strides at getting over homophobia (for both men and women, though it's slow going for men).

In this scenario, each person participates in the bonding process and you can have closed circle of trust. There would always be jealousy, but at least then everyone could pitch in to deal with those feelings. But the level of openness required for that would have to be complete.

Similarly, consider how hard it is to find a single person that you want to 'spend the rest of your life with'; now consider how hard it would be to find another woman or man with whom you can say the same thing. Perhaps the dynamics of this openness would make it easier, I don't know and I'm not aware of any studies to read up on.

Anyways, it's all academic, as you and I will never see the social changes required to support this. People that want to explore this avenue of thinking will always be forced into the "seedy underground" and will always be social outcasts because everything that we're taught tells us to hate these 'morally corrupt' people. And it's that lack of acceptance that makes it even harder to find other 'morally corrupt' people to explore with.

Yeah... We all suck.


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

So if you don't believe in monogomy, why did you get married? Doing something against your beliefs is a recipe for disaster, regardless of how you want to rationalize it.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Divorce and save your wife the pain of having to endure your infatuation. The affair will never be over , even of it is internalized, as long as you have contact with the OW . Any answer you give is contrary to the hard experience from countless waywards who were trying to R.

A cold fact , your are placing the OW on a pedestal , your thinking of you you you . Send your wife here , I assure you if she listens to us she will determine the future and one day when you hit rock bottom and see what you have done it may be to late.

Leave your job , no contact for life, send a hand written no contact letter reviewed by your wife . There is a template we can provide.

However I suspect your so into your OW and your fantasy your not going to listen , will argue and try pick our advice apart to suite yourself. If your serious about wanting help -----listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

HelloooNurse said:


> So if you don't believe in monogomy, why did you get married? Doing something against your beliefs is a recipe for disaster, regardless of how you want to rationalize it.


There is a difference between wondering about it and not believing in it. Many experts agree that we are not 'built' for monogamy. I'm just saying that monogamy is a cultural imperative, not a biological one.


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## happy_husband (Dec 11, 2011)

TCx said:


> I've wondered about this since I was in my mid teens and, in truth, it's really only useful as a philosophical discussion because the social factors required to make something like this work are so insanely hard to change at this point that it's almost impossible. There are just too many things set against this kind of arrangement that discussing it as mainstream behavior is almost moot.
> 
> Our entire society would have to change it's perspective on sex, marriage, trust, acceptance, etc. The practice would have to be openly accepted by all of the biggest institutions out there... namely the churches, policy makers and even the laws on marriage.
> 
> ...


Oh, I don't know about that. There are actually quite a few people practicing polyamory today, and even mainstream people like "Dear Abby" are discussing it in a more neutral manner, e.g., Readers comment on disclosing polyamory - USATODAY.com

So maybe it won't take as long as you think it will.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> There is a difference between wondering about it and not believing in it. Many experts agree that we are not 'built' for monogamy. I'm just saying that monogamy is a cultural imperative, not a biological one.


We also aren't "built" to wear clothing, operate computers and cell phones, consume grains, live in wooden boxes and eat previously frozen and irradiated foods. But we do because that is how society has evolved. Deal with it or live on fantasy island.

I understand what you are talking about. I've read "Sex at Dawn" by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha. We no longer live in hunter gatherer societies. We no longer use sex as a socialization tool like the bonobo apes. We actually have fire now! True, much of human mating rituals and sexual interactions stem from those pre-historical roots. But trying to regress to the behavior exhibited by those early hominids would be as unnatural for most of us as it would be to try to live a 17th century lifestyle.

More importantly our spouses expect a monogamous relationship and if one can't adhere to the agreements of the marriage contract one should make that clear before any transgressions take place.

Now, it seems as if you've done some of the things necessary to break free of this dangerous attraction. But you have been given some very good advice as to how to try to ensure the survival of your marriage. I suggest you decide if your marriage is the MOST important thing to you. If so you will do WHATEVER is necessary to make sure it is salvaged. There is enough information out there to help you prevent this type of thing from occurring again. It is up to you to seek it out and apply it like an affair vaccine if your marriage is important to you.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Divorce and save your wife the pain of having to endure your infatuation.


I think you'll find that I'm pretty hard to shock.



Eli-Zor said:


> Any answer you give is contrary to the hard experience from countless waywards who were trying to R.


The only answer I've been given is NC, quit job, be honest. My answer has been, Yes, No, Yes, respectively.



Eli-Zor said:


> A cold fact, your are placing the OW on a pedestal, your thinking of you you you.


True. As with any relationship that ends badly, I never got to see the negative side of her. I recognize that. I'm trying to kill this infatuation even though deep down I really don't want to.

I'd suspect that many of us have been through that at some point in our lives; maybe even you? Thanks for the reminder though; another never hurts.

As for 'you you you', this is also true. It all comes down to motivation and what I want and what makes me happy. That's less not selfish, that's what we are as human beings, but that flies in the face of what most people can accept. If this describes you then you and I are never going to see eye-to-eye because we have completely different views of the world.

Making people happy makes me happy and I do so because I get personal satisfaction out of it which is why I try to do it. Not hurting people makes me happy because I hurt when people I love hurt so I avoid it. Being with my daughter makes me happy, doing a good job makes me happy. I am selfish. So are you. Accept it, or not, if you like.



Eli-Zor said:


> Send your wife here, I assure you if she listens to us she will determine the future and one day when you hit rock bottom and see what you have done it may be to late.


Not knowing you, I'm not sure where you are coming from. Either you have decided that I'm a scumbag or you're trying to scare me into remembering what I have and that I don't want to lose it. If it's the former then c'est la vie. If it's the latter then thank you. (though this post makes me wonder)

If it is the former then I'm sure you could convince her to leave me if you wanted to. By giving her your perspective and constantly reinforcing it, you surely could sow seeds of doubt in her mind that could end in our divorce. You have that power; use it responsibly.



Eli-Zor said:


> However I suspect your so into your OW and your fantasy your not going to listen, will argue and try pick our advice apart to suite yourself. If your serious about wanting help -----listen.


I am listening, answering questions and giving feedback. I am interested in communication, support and some honesty/tough love. I'm not yet sure where you're coming from yet but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, of course I am going to pick apart your advice and tailor it to my needs. I am not some blind acolyte or automaton. Please don't jump down my throat just because I'm willing to question your, or conventional, wisdom.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> But we do because that is how society has evolved. Deal with it or live on fantasy island.


Nice. 



Beowulf said:


> More importantly our spouses expect a monogamous relationship and if one can't adhere to the agreements of the marriage contract one should make that clear before any transgressions take place.


Agreed, I'm not contesting this.



Beowulf said:


> I suggest you decide if your marriage is the MOST important thing to you. If so you will do WHATEVER is necessary to make sure it is salvaged.


Yeah, if you read my posts, you'll see that's the decision that I'm trying to come to already.


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## inmygut (Apr 2, 2011)

TCx said:


> I'm acting like a 16yo kid.
> 
> 
> I'm even turning down sex, which was in short supply before all of this happened.
> ...


I see that your post is all about you. The dopamine "blah blah" addiction as you put it leads to the most selfish, self-centered thoughts and actions. 
But here's what you should do. Go no contact with the OW. Think about the times that you were really, really into your wife, whether before or after you were married. Start behaving like you love her again and the feelings will follow. Do NOT turn down sex! Are you a man? Do you want any chance of your marriage working? 
:scratchhead:
Do not avoid one of the strongest bonding tools around. Read the Married Man Sex Life blog to become a better husband.

Unless of course you just want us to help you rationalize leaving your wife and child. If that is the case, my advice is different: 1- Make sure your wife gets one shark of a divorce lawyer. 2- Buy a hot plate for your efficiency apartment. 3- Stock up on Ramen noodles


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

TCx said:


> I will continue to be lost until either I make a decision or the decision is made for me. So, my emotional compass is spinning because there are too many magnets in the room. So if I kill the feelings for the OW, that's one less magnet/variable that confuses me. If the emotional compass is still spinning after that, then I'll remove another magnet.


AP = affair partner

Man oh man do I get the above. The overwhelming emotions - to the point of paralysis. The realization that if someone - anyone - could open a door and show a way out. Hoping that in your indecision and struggle maybe someone else will get fed up with you, make their own decision, and simply leave you to accept the fate they've bestowed on you. Yup I get it. The thing is - it's the cowards way out. It's also the most painful and cruel thing you can do to your wife. Make a decision and get behind it 100% - even if you're still conflicted inside. I know this is easier said than done; believe me, but it is the only way. In the absence of decision by you about what you want you will only continue to tread water in a quagmire of emotions and keep your wife in the pool with you. The only way you will successfully run the OW out of your mind is by making the decision to do so and give all that effort and energy to your wife and marriage. That doesn't make the pain go away, but it does provide direction, a purpose, and a plan for it to get better which makes a world of difference. 

Take what the betrayed spouses here give with some understanding. They've got their own bruises and sore spots, but their responses provide perspective. You'll find that if you are more understanding of their perspective they will more be more willing to constructively help you.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx said:


> Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is a question for you. Why are you still working at a place where you see the OW and she takes your breath away? And don't say because jobs are hard to find because that means your marriage is NOT your priority.

Don't you realize that while the OW is renting space in your head you can never be 100% devoted to reconciling with your wife?

Do you think you will have a better life and marriage with the OW? Don't you think when you add things like job, home, children to your relationship with the OW you will encounter some of the same problems you feel you have now in your marriage?

If you took all the energy you are spending toward the OW and redirected it toward your relationship with your wife maybe your marriage wouldn't have as many problems?

You need to make a decision NOW before the ability to decide is taken from you!


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> Here is a question for you. Why are you still working at a place where you see the OW and she takes your breath away? And don't say because jobs are hard to find because that means your marriage is NOT your priority.


Because I am not going to give up a good career because of an infatuation. Life is full of choices, this is mine. I have been in love before and been able to get through it and even been friends with them afterwards. Granted, I didn't have a spouse back then but... *shrug*

I do not accept that people can't get through this with a healthy dose of reality and some rational thinking.

And given that I do a fair bit of travel, it's unlikely that I'm going to see her again for a couple of months anyways.



Beowulf said:


> Don't you realize that while the OW is renting space in your head you can never be 100% devoted to reconciling with your wife?


Yes, I do. Please read the last line of my original post.



Beowulf said:


> Do you think you will have a better life and marriage with the OW? Don't you think when you add things like job, home, children to your relationship with the OW you will encounter some of the same problems you feel you have now in your marriage?


I got to know OW at work when she was at her best; in her element. I got to see how she thinks and handles situations. On a personal level we talked a lot about how we handle adversity in our lives, our recreational habits, food tastes, money, housework, etc, etc, almost everything really.

The problems that I'd have with her in a relationship would be completely different to the ones that I'm having in this one. But, I'm not naive enough to think that I know enough about her to want to marry her or have kids with her; not without first dating [properly], cohabitating, etc, etc.

I cannot leave my life/BW for her. If I decide to leave my wife, it MUST be for me, not for someone else. Have I thought about it? Of course I have.

Please see last sentence of my first post.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> Hoping that in your indecision and struggle maybe someone else will get fed up with you, make their own decision, and simply leave you to accept the fate they've bestowed on you.


This is the one thing that I never do. I've been in situations where indecision has cost me something that was very dear to me and so I vowed never to let it happen again. 

I haven't always been able to keep that vow but I'm absolutely sure that I don't want that to be the case here.



sigma1299 said:


> Take what the betrayed spouses here give with some understanding. They've got their own bruises and sore spots, but their responses provide perspective. You'll find that if you are more understanding of their perspective they will more be more willing to constructively help you.


Fair enough, thanks.

Having said all of this, I think that I'm ready for marriage counseling now. I know that nothing will happen with OW; I've known it for a long time but accepting it is harder to do. I'm grieving but I have a degree of clarity that I didn't when I started this thread.

Of course, today is a good day... we'll see how I feel on a bad day.

Re: The bruised people, defending myself from their ire has actually reinforced some of the other thoughts that I've had about my M. Their polar indignation over my behavior have given me the opportunity to only argue (and introspect on) only my side of the issue, rather than taking on responsibility for both sides of it.

I've been feeling the guilt for everything but the truth is that getting to this point has not solely been my fault. Others will disagree and I'm sure that I'll get more hate mail; *shrug*.

I think that I can now start working with my wife to determine if our marriage is something that we both want to save and if it can be saved. Now, to make the appointments.


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## happy_husband (Dec 11, 2011)

TCx said:


> This is the one thing that I never do. I've been in situations where indecision has cost me something that was very dear to me and so I vowed never to let it happen again.
> 
> I haven't always been able to keep that vow but I'm absolutely sure that I don't want that to be the case here.
> 
> ...


You sound very different from most here, whether they are categorized as "loyal" or "disloyal". Being much more analytical rather than paralyzed by pain (as understandable as the latter is in such a difficult situation), you should have an excellent head start on getting to the right conclusion, whatever that may be.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

TCx said:


> This is the one thing that I never do. I've been in situations where indecision has cost me something that was very dear to me and so I vowed never to let it happen again.
> 
> I haven't always been able to keep that vow but I'm absolutely sure that I don't want that to be the case here.


Ok, so call the pain your in stupid tax for what you did, accept that you have to pay it, and put your energy into your wife and fixing your marriage. 

You know that when I said this, "Write your doubts about your marriage and wife off to affair fog and addiction." I didn't mean that there weren't issues in your marriage that you need to face and work on, but that the pain your in and thoughts about the OW do not have to mean that you question your whole marriage. They are likely just what I said above - stupid tax. 

So use the fact that you and your wife are already way outside of your comfort zones, that there is already lots of pain and confusion in the relationship, to really hash out the issues with your wife and address them. Once the two of you start to reestablish some equilibrium and comfort it will get harder to keep these discussions brutally honest so strike while the iron is hot.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Your picking posters messages will continue for infinitum why???? Your not prepared to do what must be done to maximise the chance of a marriage recovery . Its far easier for you to post here and reject ways to make changes than to actualy do something meaningful.

Here is my take , you tried to seduce a woman to the point that she broke up with her long term boyfriend . Reality has hit her and it's not fun, most certainly she sees you for who you really are and it hurts that she messed up her relationship. You may not have been the only cause but you most certainly were an influencing factor.

Where are you now ? Your here using this forum as a blog with no intention of taking the difficult hard steps to evidence in words, actions and deeds that you are truly working on your marriage.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

My choice of words to yourself is due to you coming across as unremorseful for what you have done . If the OW had responded you very likely would have jumped ship . Your rationalisation and analysis is almost the same as a wayward husband on one of the pro affair sites . The only difference is we were successfully guiding his wife , their marriage is in recovery however they both have had to make changes.

The journey starts with you giving the OW a letter of NC that your wife approves . There are no apologies to the OW therein , that is reserved for your wife . Together tell her parents and yours and ask for their support. If and it's a big if you are prepared for the long haul of rebuilding the marriage then there is a way .

If you go to MC choose wisely many use the title but have little experience of actualy saving and rebuilding a marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> ... Its far easier for you to post here and reject ways to make changes than to actualy do something meaningful.


I make you angry, I get that. But re-making the same point repeatedly isn't going to win me over.



Eli-Zor said:


> ... you tried to seduce a woman to the point that she broke up with her long term boyfriend. Reality has hit her and it's not fun, most certainly she sees you for who you really are and it hurts that she messed up her relationship. You may not have been the only cause but you most certainly were an influencing factor.


Could I have been a factor in her breakup? Perhaps, and if that's the case then I am truly truly sorry. But I don't know if that's the case or not.

Did I seduce her? In a manner of speaking, yes I did. She was already dealing with a breakup when we started traveling together. My head wasn't right and neither was hers.



Eli-Zor said:


> Where are you now? Your here using this forum as a blog with no intention of taking the difficult hard steps to evidence in words, actions and deeds that you are truly working on your marriage.


Correct. In addition to that, I'm currently sitting under a bridge eating babies and kicking puppy dogs. <-- sarcasm



Eli-Zor said:


> My choice of words to yourself is due to you coming across as unremorseful for what you have done.


Life doesn't always have to be a drama. Sometimes, people can get by just fine without falling to their knees, pulling out their hair and wailing for forgiveness.

Do I feel remorse? Yes, of course I do. I do not like that people have been hurt. But I can't change the past, I can only influence the future and that's where I'm trying to focus my efforts. I've made mistakes and I'm trying to learn from them; that is how we grow. That is how we get better at life.

That is what life is about EZ. Making mistakes and learning from them. Some of us deal with mistakes differently than you do. There is no 'one-size-fits-all' recipe to this. You do not have all of the answers, and neither do I.



Eli-Zor said:


> If the OW had responded you very likely would have jumped ship.


Please re-read #1



Eli-Zor said:


> Together tell her parents and yours and ask for their support.


We've told our family, at my request. Weeks ago.



Eli-Zor said:


> If you go to MC choose wisely many use the title but have little experience of actualy saving and rebuilding a marriage.


Thank you, this is good advice. We'll do our research.

Having said that, I'm not interested in saving my marriage for the sake of saving my marriage. I'm interested in finding out if we both want to save it and, more importantly, if it should be saved. Then I'll worry about trying to save it.

One step at a time.

Your response to this will likely be that "it can't be fixed as I have demonstrated that I'm not willing to do what's necessary to fix it", or possibly even that I "obviously don't want to fix it".

You and I are never going to see eye-to-eye EZ. We have completely different views on life and how we deal with adversity.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> ... "Write your doubts about your marriage and wife off to affair fog and addiction." I didn't mean that there weren't issues in your marriage that you need to face and work on, but that the pain your in and thoughts about the OW do not have to mean that you question your whole marriage. They are likely just what I said above - stupid tax.


Thanks, that makes sense. Truth be told, this is not the first time that I've questioned our marriage. This doubt has been building for years. When my job was all consuming, I didn't notice the undercurrents because I was too busy to. Our time together was simply us enjoying our companionship.

However, when my job became less demanding, that was no longer the case and I spent more time around the things that had, before, merely annoyed me and they started to become pain points and eventually started to become points of resentment. She would not keep commitments that she'd made, etc. After our daughter was born, it got worse.

I wish that I could blame all of my doubts on the EA. But that would just be lying to myself. I can't do that anymore and stay sane.



sigma1299 said:


> ... Once the two of you start to reestablish some equilibrium and comfort it will get harder to keep these discussions brutally honest so strike while the iron is hot.


I worry about that. The reason that our marital problems have gone on so long is because of our communication skills, or rather, the lack thereof. Given where we are today, I'm going to try hard to make sure that we don't make the same mistake again.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

As a wayward what is your plan to be a honest , trustworth , non manipulative husband who is actively working for his marriage and the love your wife gave you. What are you going to do to actively evidence all these ? Ask yourself why the OW has reacted negatively to you? The answers are for you only

You came here for help , yet all you seem to be doing is playing one upmanship. Either you need help or your wisdom exceeds our experience of helping folk either in relationship building or moving on.

Best wishes to you ...and your wife
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> As a wayward what is your plan to be a honest , trustworth , non manipulative husband who is actively working for his marriage and the love your wife gave you. What are you going to do to actively evidence all these?



Honest - Tell the truth, in whatever form it is on that day; I've often told my wife that the truth can change as I figure new things out. I tell her that today's truth may not be tomorrow's truth but I will always tell her the truth
Trustworthy - Nothing. There is nothing that I can do that can make her trust me again; that is her choice. She's had all of my passwords for over a year and those were given for practical reasons; if I die, she needs to be able to access everything I have. She has access to my cell phone too, if she wants, I'm not bothered. If there are other things that she needs as evidence from me then I'll do what I am able to within the confines of my job (I can't give her the password to my work laptop because there is sensitive data on it). So let's not be naive - if I want to hid things from her, I can. She has to accept that as part of her decision to trust me. If she doesn't think that she can trust me again then this marriage is over. That's not an ultimatum, that's just the truth as I see it and I accept it. Cold, hard math.
Non-manipulative - Nothing. My job requires that I manipulate (aka 'manage') people and I'm good at it; I accept it. I often manage my wife to draw her into conversations with me because if I didn't we wouldn't talk. If she had her way, we'd sweep all of this under the rug and never talk about it again and we'd be D'd in 12 mo (which would be my choice). So I am actively manipulating her to get her to say the things that she's thinking so she can get the release. I'm also reminding her that this isn't all about me and it isn't all about her.



Eli-Zor said:


> Either you need help or your wisdom exceeds our experience of helping folk either in relationship building or moving on.


I came here for the same reasons that others came here. I am looking for help/advice where it can be had and support too. The advice that I receive I will use as I see it is relevant to me and my role in our marriage.

My wife is hurting, yes, and I'm doing what I can to help her with that. But I am hurting too; I can't work with her on the marriage if I can't heal myself. Selfish? Sure, but sometimes a little selfishness is a good thing.



Eli-Zor said:


> Best wishes to you ...and your wife


Thank you.


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## 4waysplit (Dec 22, 2011)

I find your attempts to provide reasoning to what is an unacceptable situation and to argue against every suggestion , pretty humourous and here is why - I am miserable in my marriage atm and if my husband admitted an emotional connection to another woman and being tempted to cheat i would probably outwardly try and help him through his feelings and show i was willing to work on our relationship - however internally i would sit and wait for him to commit adultery in a legally proveable way and then sit back enjoy my higher ground of a divorce that is on my terms because he is ultimatly the perpatrator of the offense . 

Now i doubt that the problems in your marriage are all your fault or her fault but consider for a moment that she has the same attitude as i do .................... what are you planning to do ?

(tbh though i would probably miserable or not be pretty damned upset to the point of hysteria if i was your wife that i wouldnt be able to think straight enough to extract the revenge such an act deserves) 

and do you want to know how little girls with adulterous parents grow up ---- I am the daughter of a cheater , i love and respect my parents but i found it hard to get to this point. maybe this gives you food for thought or maybe you'll argue with it - If you want permission to cheat or to be told it is anyway acceptable or understandable you wont get it from me


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

4waysplit said:


> Now i doubt that the problems in your marriage are all your fault or her fault but consider for a moment that she has the same attitude as i do .................... what are you planning to do ?


Work with her to decide if we should be married or not. Do the one thing that we've failed to do throughout our entire relationship; talk about the things that are hard. Everything will follow on from that.

If she's gathering evidence or waiting for me to cheat then I can't change that and we're already done.



4waysplit said:


> and do you want to know how little girls with adulterous parents grow up


My wife is the daughter of a cheater too (who got custody). She loves both of her parents dearly because both of them worked together (and supported each other) for the kids, even after the D. I think she views D in that light, which is pretty damned rare.

But she does still hold that resentment against her cheating parent; she was old enough to remember the court battles, etc, etc, etc.



4waysplit said:


> If you want permission to cheat or to be told it is anyway acceptable or understandable you wont get it from me


I'm not looking for permission.

My wife's boundaries for our marriage are simple, she does not share. At the beginning of the relationship she said that I ever had sex with anyone else, "we are through". I told her that I would live within that boundary, and I have, though for my EA I desperately wanted to cross that line.

Some might say that wanting and getting extramarital sex are the same thing. If this is my wife's attitude then we're either done or she can forgive me. I can't change it so I accept it.

The cold hard math here is that either we can forgive each other or we can't. She has more to forgive me for than the other way around but the onus is still on her to do so if we are to stay together. 

If we decide to R, and it feels like we're heading that way, then I'll do what I can to help her forgive me. I expect no less from her.

I honestly don't know if we'll make it. Some days I think yes, others no. Good days and bad days.

We've got a lot of ground to cover and we'll either build a newer, stronger 'us' or we'll go our separate ways. But in either case, I want us both to be on the same page.

For once in our lives, I'd like us to work together on something. It makes me sad that it has to be this but then you have to start sometime, don't you?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

4waysplit said:


> (tbh though i would probably miserable or not be pretty damned upset to the point of hysteria if i was your wife that i wouldnt be able to think straight enough to extract the revenge such an act deserves)


_Revenge - Inflict hurt or harm on someone for an injury or wrong done to oneself._

I'm sorry but if you listen to yourself here, you will realize that you're speaking from anger. I understand the desire for revenge but would it actually do any good? Who will it benefit? Will either my wife or my daughter benefit from intentionally causing me hurt?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

**** 
Originally Posted by Eli-Zor:
and do you want to know how little girls with adulterous parents grow up
******



********
Originally Posted by Eli-Zor:
If you want permission to cheat or to be told it is anyway acceptable or understandable you wont get it from me
**********

Quoting my name against words and sentances that I did not write is wholly inappropriate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4waysplit (Dec 22, 2011)

let me put it in a clearer way for you - 

A cancer patient is leaving the hospital after a grueling day of chemotherapy he is tired and dizzy he trips on the edge of the sidewalk and falls into the path of a bus , what kills him the cancer or the bus?

A marriage is either alive or dead it's condition inbetween can be anything not unlike cancer and the truest answer to this story is if the man is dead what does it matter what killed him - you want to save your marriage do it remove temptation and do it. But if things are so bad you cant or feel it isnt an option and consider this right now you and your wife are communicating not well not perfectly but you are if you are uncertian then perhaps it is better to walk away and end a marriage whilst you can still communicate for the sake of your family. Perhaps instead of argueing and attempting to justify your actions you understand this there was a gap in your marriage caused by the problems that lead to this emotional affair . You seem to be looking for an answer and you clearly arent getting one that fits here . So what is the answer your looking for exactly ?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

4 my suggesting is to ignore this poster. You will end up in an endless debate with no outcome.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

It is fine to reason. It is fine to argue with people, but:
What actions are you going to take?

There is no grey here.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Eli-Zor said:


> Quoting my name against words and sentances that I did not write is wholly inappropriate.


Copy/paste error. The QUOTE= bit was in my clipboard from another response I was writing and I didn't notice it, sorry. 

Post edited.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

ing said:


> It is fine to reason. It is fine to argue with people, but:
> What actions are you going to take?
> 
> There is no grey here.


Throughout this whole thread, my plan has not changed. 

The plan:

Kill feelings for OW and grieve
Talk to my W and find out where our problems lie
Figure out if we want to be married anymore
Make a decision and commit to it

In review, I was told to:

Quit my job - No.
Go NC - Yes, OW is out of my life for time being.
Write an NC letter - No.
Get MC - WIP.
Give my W full access to passwords - Done, before the EA.
Think good thoughts about my W - WIP.
Think bad thoughts about OW - No, not just for the sake of thinking bad thoughts.
Think about your daughter - WIP.
Think about your financial ruin in a D - Done.
Have sex w/ my W - Done.
Be Honest - WIP.
Be Trustworthy - WIP.
Be non-manipulative - No. See #32
Understand that there were gaps in my marriage - Done.
Identify gaps in marriage - Done.
Stop arguing with people on TAM and do what I'm told - No.
Decide if my marriage is the most important thing in my life - See plan, deal with this in step 3.
Get a divorce because I'm scum - See plan, deal with this in step 3

Thank you all for your advice so far. I have taken it on board where I felt it was appropriate. And for those who have given it, thank you for your support.

What am I going to do? Stick with the plan until I come up with a better one.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The only thing I really disagree with is not writing a no contact letter, but hey, it's your plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

There's one part of your plan going forward that hasn't really been talked about in this thread very much. We're all different, and each of us obvious respond to different parts of an argument, so maybe this helps, or maybe it doesn't.

Maybe there is some value in really being honest with yourself about this OW. Within the brackets, you mention in the OP some of your interpretations of her actions. But take away the brackets for a closer look, and ask yourself if you are really dreaming about a pipe dream. I don't mean this sarcastically. Its just that if you allow yourself to look at her reaction honestly, and it makes you feel foolish for pining for some woman who obviously doesn't feel the same way, can you achieve your stated goal? To quit obsessing over her.

So, maybe I'm not alone in thinking that even though I wasn't there, and didn't experience the situations you describe, seems pretty obvious that you have love in one hand, with your wife, and no romantic interest with the situation in the other hand. Maybe you'll insist that an obsession can't be controlled, but you obviously value making logical decisions, too. Just tell yourself that the woman turned you down. Tell yourself that only losers pursue unicorns. I don't know. You have to find a way to let it go. And if you are a real manager, why accept just weighing the value of your current relationship? You won't settle for that in your career if you are worth your salt, so don't settle for bland in the marriage. Again, just ways to challenge yourself, if they work for you.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

The plan:

Kill feelings for OW and grieve 
Talk to my W and find out where our problems lie
Figure out if we want to be married anymore
*Make a decision and commit to it*

In review, I was told to:

Quit my job - No.
Go NC - Yes, OW is out of my life for time being.
Write an NC letter - No.
Get MC - WIP. Maybe
Give my W full access to passwords - Done, before the EA.
Think good thoughts about my W - WIP. MAYBE
Think bad thoughts about OW - No, not just for the sake of thinking bad thoughts.

Think about your daughter - WIP. Maybe
Think about your financial ruin in a D - Done.

Have sex w/ my W - Done.
Be Honest - WIP. No Grey here.
Be Trustworthy - WIP. No Grey here.

Be non-manipulative - No. See #32

Understand that there were gaps in my marriage - Done. Blame

Identify gaps in marriage - Done. 
Apportion Blame

Stop arguing with people on TAM and do what I'm told - No. You are't arguing. you are blame shifting. 


_Decide if my marriage is the most important thing in my life_
Get a divorce because I'm scum - See plan, deal with this in step 3



That is a plan to do nothing. All you are trying to do is avoid making decisions.

You are a weak man. Grow up.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

ing,

It seems that you always read the worst in everything I write.

I have made a decision and committed to it. I have decided to kill the feelings that I have for OW and after that, see where I am. However, I don't feel that necessitates quitting my job. I've had a broken heart before and while it took some time, I healed. I accept that OW is gone/not an option and that is allowing me to move on. That's how it works. Surely I'm not the only person in the world who's managed to accomplish this most basic aspect of relationships? Surely I'm not the only person that has managed to cross the chasm from puberty to adulthood?

re: WIP = Work In Progress; it does not mean "maybe". It means that an activity is being actively pursued. For instance, "Be Honest" is a lifelong endeavour; it will never be "Done".

re: Blame shifting - Okay, fine, I'm blame shifting. I had a perfect marriage before my EA. And one day I just decided that life was too perfect and I needed to spice things up because I am a psychopath. <-- sarcasm

There was something missing in the marriage, and both my wife and I have, together, made great strides in identifying what that is. Both of us screwed up (mostly through inaction and non-communication and that comes down to personalities), I just cast the largest, most recent, stone.

I bet that we're not so unusual in this and that almost all of the couples posting here have had a hand in screwing up their own marriages. Some will admit it, others will be blinded by anger/hurt so that they can't/won't (because it's just easier to blame the other person).

re: Decide if marriage is most important thing in my life - I care very deeply for my wife, and I always will, but love does not conquer all. If nothing changes in this marriage then I will not be happy and neither will my wife; the last 3-4 years have shown that. We could survive another 2-3 years with the status quo but by then we'd have built up even more resentment and hurt and we'd fall into that magic 14-18 year divorce statistic. I don't want that. In this case, the EA has acted as a catalyst, at least for me, to do something about it.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> It seems that you always read the worst in everything I write.


I see what you write.



> I have made a decision and committed to it. I have decided to kill the feelings that I have for OW and after that, see where I am. However, I don't feel that necessitates quitting my job.


Ok. How do you think your wife will feel about you being close to the person you betrayed her to everyday?



> I've had a broken heart before and while it took some time, I healed.


What about your wifes broken heart? This is still about you and your needs. 



> I accept that OW is gone/not an option and that is allowing me to move on. That's how it works. Surely I'm not the only person in the world who's managed to accomplish this most basic aspect of relationships?


You were indulging in a fantasy that hurt your wife. It was a selfish and deeply hurtful action that you have so far chosen to analyse rather than acknowledge her very real pain. 
A much easier option for you.



> Surely I'm not the only person that has managed to cross the chasm from puberty to adulthood?


This is nothing to do with puberty and adulthood or are you suggesting you have the emotional maturity of a 16 year old?



> re: WIP = Work In Progress; it does not mean "maybe". It means that an activity is being actively pursued. For instance, "Be Honest" is a lifelong endeavour; it will never be "Done".


I am familair with the term and most often when used by managers it means "defer or palm off on other person" . I am not engaging in semantics though. You decide its meaning.



> re: Blame shifting - Okay, fine, I'm blame shifting. I had a perfect marriage before my EA. And one day I just decided that life was too perfect and I needed to spice things up because I am a psychopath. <-- sarcasm


Your still thinking it is her fault. I agree that the relationship was flawed and you needed to talk. Did you? No. You chose to betray her. 



> There was something missing in the marriage, and both my wife and I have, together, made great strides in identifying what that is. Both of us screwed up (mostly through inaction and non-communication and that comes down to personalities), I just cast the largest, most recent, stone.


You betrayed your wife. 




> I bet that we're not so unusual in this and that almost all of the couples posting here have had a hand in screwing up their own marriages. Some will admit it, others will be blinded by anger/hurt so that they can't/won't (because it's just easier to blame the other person).



I think you will find that most people here fully accept that they had equal share in the relationship problems but none at all in your decision to solve that by cutting the partner our of the process and confiding in another person. 
That is entirely your fault.



> re: Decide if marriage is most important thing in my life - I care very deeply for my wife, and I always will, but love does not conquer all. If nothing changes in this marriage then I will not be happy and neither will my wife; the last 3-4 years have shown that. We could survive another 2-3 years with the status quo but by then we'd have built up even more resentment and hurt and we'd fall into that magic 14-18 year divorce statistic. I don't want that. In this case, the EA has acted as a catalyst, at least for me, to do something about it.


If you care deeply about her acknowledge the level of hurt you have and continue to inflict on her by your minimisation of your betrayal. This may be a catalyst but did you really need to hurt your wife like this? Look up betrayal. Read here. You already have seen the pain betrayal inflicts. You will never know it until you feel it.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

TCx,

You know in a lot of ways you sound like I did. I was coming from the other side of the aisle though. My wife came clean about her affair and I handled it logically, thoughtfully, objectively. I was the type of person to see a problem, break it down to its component parts and tackle it from all sides. The problem is it didn't work. What I was actually doing was burying my emotions and not allowing myself to deal with the problem from a position that would allow me to heal. Consequently all my pain and emotion surfaced and I unleashed a tirade against my wife that still mystifies me and reduced her to a sobbing heap on the floor.

It sounds like you've made yourself a plan to extricate yourself from an emotional situation using reason and logic. Don't be surprised if your emotions boil to the surface and derail any perceived progress you may think you're making. Unfortunately reason and logic will not heal yourself or your marriage. If you want to try to reconcile you cannot do that without genuine emotions and remorse. If you aren't willing or able to open yourself up you should just end the marriage now and avoid inflicting further pain. Good luck.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

Deciding to kill your feelings for the OW didn't work. You need to quit your job! I understand that in THIS economy it's hard to walk away from a paycheck, especially if your wife doesn't work and your income supports the entire family.
So I'm not suggesting to call into work and quit today but you can polish your resume and start applying for other jobs asap. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to re-locate for a new job? Are you willing to work for lesser pay? Are you willing to scale back your lifestyle (cancel dish network etc.) to make a lesser paying job work for you?


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Halien said:


> Maybe there is some value in really being honest with yourself about this OW. Within the brackets, you mention in the OP some of your interpretations of her actions. But take away the brackets for a closer look, and ask yourself if you are really dreaming about a pipe dream. I don't mean this sarcastically. Its just that if you allow yourself to look at her reaction honestly, and it makes you feel foolish for pining for some woman who obviously doesn't feel the same way, can you achieve your stated goal? To quit obsessing over her.


It's impossible to convey every detail/conversation/look that occurred during our time together to validate my interpretations. And even if I tried, they could be argued ad nauseum. Therefore, in the absence of confirmation, interpretations are subject to all of our desires, insecurities and rationalizations.

The interpretation that you mention is my way of distancing myself from her and trying to keep myself in a box. It helps me from spiraling even further than thinking that she was in love with me, even if it was only the result of a chemical addiction. If that were the case, then I'd be in even worse shape; I doubt that I'd get out of bed in the morning. I'm defending myself because it's the only way that I can cope because the thought of hurting both my W and OW that deeply would be too much for me to process. If OW had no feelings for me then that's great and if she'd just tell me why she's so pissed at me, that would be even better. Unfortunately, I know the truth is a lot more complex than my very simple interpretation because no emotionally charged situation is ever about only one emotion.

As for killing the feelings, I'm making strides there. I've simply accepted that there is no way that I can ever make it up to her, nor will she let me, and so I've just stopped trying. I also recognize that it's not fair for me to try to take away her anger at me, that is selfish. Accepting that has allowed me to refocus my thoughts. The hurt is still there but it's changing.



Halien said:


> ... why accept just weighing the value of your current relationship? You won't settle for that in your career if you are worth your salt, so don't settle for bland in the marriage. Again, just ways to challenge yourself, if they work for you.


You have a point and that's a thought I've been having also. I've recently taken to looking at it like this.

I have already said that I am not going back to my old M. Therefore, it follows that my old M is already over.

That leaves us with two options:

Finalize it with paperwork
Start over and work together to build a new M

This is effectively saying the same thing as 'weigh the value of the current marriage', but it changes the impetus behind it very subtly. It's a more active appraisal of the situation, rather than something that sounds as passive and indecisive.

Unfortunately, this perception has frustrated me because my wife is avoiding talking to me because "I'm finally starting to be happy again, I'd like some time before I ruin it". This has left me with the impression that nothing will change so I've been moving closer and closer to #1.

Today, though, she got mad at me and I was soooo happy and proud of her! It means that, perhaps, she's moving out of denial and is starting to actually process things. That anger will give her strength which will allow us to talk about stuff, even if coloured by anger (I'm generally good at reading through anger given enough information).

For me, I think I'm already at 'acceptance' (5 stages of loss) with a tendency to regress into depression from time to time (good days vs bad days).

I haven't pitched the 'marriage is over' perception to her because I'm scared that she'd regress and basically promise change, etc, because she's scared of losing me. And that would be the worst thing that could happen, for both of us. I need her to be strong so that we can actually talk about things honestly, rather than dance around the issues.

It could very well be that's impossible given that both of us have so much history, I don't know, this is new territory for me. Time will tell I guess.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Beowulf said:


> TCx,
> 
> You know in a lot of ways you sound like I did. I was coming from the other side of the aisle though... What I was actually doing was burying my emotions and not allowing myself to deal with the problem from a position that would allow me to heal. Consequently all my pain and emotion surfaced and I unleashed a tirade against my wife that still mystifies me and reduced her to a sobbing heap on the floor.


At the beginning, I was internalizing everything. I don't really have anyone to talk to about this so it took me a long time to process things. I haven't been burying my emotions, I've just been doing my crying and venting away from other people.

I did find someone to talk to someone on the phone since the OP and that's helped me immensely actually; just getting it out.

As for the release against my wife, I've done that too I'm afraid. It's hard because she and I are at completely different stages in our thinking. A while ago she told me that I think 'too fast' about this stuff and that she needed time to catch up. I understand that completely and I'm trying to be sensitive to it.



Beowulf said:


> It sounds like you've made yourself a plan to extricate yourself from an emotional situation using reason and logic.


Sort of. I'm using reason and logic to try to find a way forward in helping me make my decisions. I'm trying to identify where the emotions are clouding my judgement then trying to deal with the motivators behind them which allows me to dissect the emotions and deal with them.

I know that all sounds very clinical and possibly even robotic but in truth it's a process of trial and error, success and setback.



Beowulf said:


> If you want to try to reconcile you cannot do that without genuine emotions and remorse. If you aren't willing or able to open yourself up you should just end the marriage now and avoid inflicting further pain. Good luck.


To quote myself from previous posts...


_There is too much hurt, guilt and conflict, etc._ 
_I'm hurting, confused, scared and extremely vulnerable. I'm lost._
_This is going to sound cold but I don't feel any remorse for falling for someone else, nor am I trying to defend it. It happened and these things happen, for any number of reasons. Focusing on that isn't going to accomplish anything. I'm trying to deal with it and learn from it and move on.

Where I do feel remorse is in the results of it all. So many people are hurting and it's because of something that I've done._

People keep assuming that there is no remorse. Perhaps it's because I'm focusing mainly, on TAM, on my decision process that people think I'm some kind of unfeeling, unrepentant automaton, I don't know. Anyways, thanks for the good luck wish.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

FourtyPlus said:


> Deciding to kill your feelings for the OW didn't work. You need to quit your job!


If at first you don't succeed, try try and try again. Part of my failure to kill the feelings has been because I've been internalizing everything. I've stopped that now and it's allowed me to make progress.

Will I ever kill them completely? No, but I can change them into something else.

And I will not quit my job. As far as TAM is concerned, that is my final word on the subject. If my W sees it differently then she and I will discuss it.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

All you care about is yourself, and some OW who sounds like she has the morals of a dog.

Honestly, divorce your wife and do something good for someone for once. She deserves much better than you.

All I see in your post is "me me me" and "OW OW OW"... What about your wife? And worst of all - what about your child? Children deserve to grow up in a household with mutual love, RESPECT (something cheaters violate), trust and protection. Any household where an affair is involved is toxic and dangerous to children. Are these the morals you wish for your children to believe in (or are you still on the 'social construct' of monogamy card?)?
Would you want your daughter to stay with a man who cheated on her, whether it be emotionally or physically?


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

TCx said:


> If at first you don't succeed, try try and try again. Part of my failure to kill the feelings has been because I've been internalizing everything. I've stopped that now and it's allowed me to make progress.
> 
> Will I ever kill them completely? No, but I can change them into something else.
> 
> And I will not quit my job. As far as TAM is concerned, that is my final word on the subject. If my W sees it differently then she and I will discuss it.


Why is it that you won't quit your job? Why is it that you can't kill your feelings for the OW? Why do you only feel remorse about the result but not the deed itself? Why do you not want to focus on why it happened?


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Friend, I think this woman could be like an interchangeable part. Find a new job, there'll be a new woman that takes your fancy, sooner or later.

I started with blowtorch anger at my soon-to-be ex, but that's evening out now. Just last night I figured, we married too young. Or maybe it's just part of modern life to marry twice - once to get your feet wet, once to make experience pay off. Don't know what that means for people who marry five or six times. 

Our courtship was like a storybook and I thought our marriage was too, but in the end, I somehow stopped being her taste and there was something else she wanted. So she went out and found it. Maybe she could have put a bit more willpower in this year, but sooner or later she would have broken.

The problem isn't what you feel for someone else. The problem right now is what you still feel for your wife. Not your daughter, your wife. That's what I think.


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## Lazarus (Jan 17, 2011)

How can you have feelings for OW and claim you want to work on your marriage when you describe your status as homesexual?

Shouldn't you come clean with both your wife and OW regarding your sexual status and then work out what you really want in life?


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## lascarx (Dec 24, 2011)

Lazarus said:


> How can you have feelings for OW and claim you want to work on your marriage when you describe your status as homesexual?
> 
> Shouldn't you come clean with both your wife and OW regarding your sexual status and then work out what you really want in life?


Darnit, I missed that one. TCx, you got bigger problems than I thought, kindly ignore everything I said.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Lazarus said:


> How can you have feelings for OW and claim you want to work on your marriage when you describe your status as homesexual?


Roflmao! Sorry, meant to pick hetero. LOL!


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Lydia said:


> All I see in your post is "me me me" and "OW OW OW"... What about your wife? And worst of all - what about your child?


That knife cuts both ways. How many 'alpha' BS have you seen that have posted exactly the same thing? Right, all of them, "me me me", "I can't believe he/she did this to me", "I am taking the kids and leaving because they have hurt me!"

You could say that they are justified in their viewpoints because they were the ones that were betrayed, but that's simply a double standard and a justification for said behavior. When the WS attempts to R, they are so caught up in their own anger/world that all they see is themselves, triggers and all.

That's how people work.

Please don't preach to me about being selfish. Everyone is selfish, including you.



Lydia said:


> Would you want your daughter to stay with a man who cheated on her, whether it be emotionally or physically?


That depends on the circumstances surrounding the A and the people involved. People make mistakes.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

FourtyPlus said:


> Why is it that you won't quit your job?


I've already explained this earlier.



FourtyPlus said:


> Why is it that you can't kill your feelings for the OW?


Because I still have chemicals coursing through my system and I've patterned.



FourtyPlus said:


> Why do you only feel remorse about the result but not the deed itself?


Because I can't change the deed. Dwelling on it serves no purpose. I can, however, help repair the hurt that I've caused.



FourtyPlus said:


> Why do you not want to focus on why it happened?


I have, just not in TAM. Would you like me to give you a dissertation on the background? Probably not and, frankly, I suspect that people would simply argue the minutia in it anyways. 

I am a wayward, that instantly makes me a bad person in some people's eyes. Couple that with the fact that I'm not wailing about it and tearing my hair out and that labels me a heartless, amoral bastard. So what's the point?


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## Sindo (Oct 29, 2011)

I'm not going to add much to this thread, beyond my opinion that with your current attitude, you are not going to have a successful R. It requires true remorse and actions to back it up, and I see no evidence of that. 

I would suggest, though, that you point your wife to TAM, as it sounds like she needs it a lot more than you.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

TCx said:


> I've already explained this earlier.
> Must have overseen your reason for not quitting your job.
> 
> Because I still have chemicals coursing through my system and I've patterned.
> ...


You are not a bad person but you did a pretty bad thing. No need to tear your hair out, just understand what you have done and why. Understand that you are in no position to repair anything you have done - because you still love the OW and don't have remorse for loving someone other than your wife. You know, that happens but then leave your wife, be with the one you love and allow your wife to find someone that loves her and treats her the way she deserved to be loved and treated. 
I'm a wayward too.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think you are way off the mark with your assumption that this woman ever considered you a love interest. All of her behavior seems consistent with normal social exchange between work colleagues. . I am certain you have had similar exchanges with male colleagues. 

Furthermore, her behavior had all the signs of a lack emotional or physical attraction for you. Quite the contrary, she seems to have been appalled that you interpreted her friendliness as anything more than normal social exchange between colleagues. She may be avoiding you because she was affronted by your assumption that she was the type of woman who would compromise her moral standards.. She was very quick to get away from you and stay away. That is more consistent with the opitsite of attraction - repulsion. . 

Have you ever considered that you may be deficient in your ability to accurately read people in social situations. You seem to lack empathy and compassion although you say you don't like to hurt people. You seem self-absorbed and overly confident in your intellectual abilities. Perhaps your problems in your marriage and your misinterpretation of social exchange is evidence of a more fundamental problem. Would you say you have narcissistic tendencies? 

Read this you may recognize yourself Types of Narcissism.

I was blunt because you said you wanted help and that you did not mind blunt. I may seem insensitive but I don't think you will mind. Did you come to this site to prove your superior intellect by way of debate? it seems so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think you are way off the mark with your assumption that this woman ever considered you a love interest. All of her behavior seems consistent with normal social exchange between work colleagues. . I am certain you have had similar exchanges with male colleagues.
> 
> Furthermore, her behavior had all the signs of a lack emotional or physical attraction for you. Quite the contrary, she seems to have been appalled that you interpreted her friendliness as anything more than normal social exchange between colleagues. She may be avoiding you because she was affronted by your assumption that she was the type of woman who would compromise her morals standards.. She was very quick to get away from you and stay away. That is more consistent withy he opitsite of attraction - repulsion. .
> 
> ...


Catherine, This is exactly my take on it too. What I saw was a coworker who suddenly realized that her casual friendship and working relationship was suddenly no longer possible, who cried because she's asking herself why everything has to be so complicated. I mean, when women have real feelings for a guy, its uncanny how 'uncomplicated' it can suddenly be. In other words, there's no question of "did she?/would she?". As a guy, its amazing how simple it is to appreciate the woman in our life when we accept the fact that we are nearly invisible to every other woman out there.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I was blunt because you said you wanted help and that you did not mind blunt. I may seem insensitive but I don't think you will mind. Did you come to this site to prove your superior intellect by way of debate? it seems so.


No, actually, I prefer blunt when done properly. There is a difference between what you're doing, which is trying to get me to question my perceptions, and what others have done in being 'blunt', which was basically to attack or to make wild suppositions about my character and what they feel is the only path to resolution. It's all in the delivery; yours is effective, the majority of the other 'bluntness' has been aggressively so, bordering on unreasonable and even invective. There is a remarkable difference.



Catherine602 said:


> I think you are way off the mark with your assumption that this woman ever considered you a love interest. ... That is more consistent with the opitsite of attraction - repulsion.


Yes, I'd considered this too and initially had felt pretty stupid; I even tried to apologize to her for getting it wrong. All I can say is that her behaviors have been all over the place. That she was conflicted, I have no doubt; her behavior supported this. That she was going through hard emotional times herself, I also have no doubt, her behavior also supported this. Was I also her emotional support, yes. Did others, who were close to the situation, also lend weight to my viewpoint, yes. Point of fact, I was denying it all quite happily until they drew my attention to it (rather succinctly actually). There are things that have been said that are undeniable. But if this is your take on the situation then I accept that and nothing I say will change your mind.

Either way, it doesn't matter. Regardless of what her feelings (attractive or repulsive) may have been toward me, decisions have been made and I was having problems dealing with her when we were in contact. Part of it was guilt, part of it was attraction, part of it was that none of the communication that was coming from her was clear, it was all over the place which made it even harder on me because of my nature; I believe in talking things through with people so that everyone involved has clarity. I wasn't getting that and, in retrospect, I think that is where alot of the obsession came from because once I stopped trying to fix things, I started to get better. That's not to say that I don't still really like her just that I've accepted things as they are.



Catherine602 said:


> Have you ever considered that you may be deficient in your ability to accurately read people in social situations. You seem to lack empathy and compassion although you say you don't like to hurt people.


Yes (I have considered it)... When it comes to people I'm always looking for their underlying motives which causes me to second guess what it is that I see and what it is that I think I might see. I never take people at face value unless I have good reason to do so. 

For social situations, I am (and this is going to sound very self centric, but it's true) nearly always the life of the party. I have fun, am not particularly inhibited and am very friendly. I'm very mindful of body language and social queues because I've been trained to be.

I understand that my posts are both wordy and read like a textbook. I've no doubt that this rubs people the wrong way and leads to perceptions of egotism, aloofness and liking the sound of my own 'voice'. And given that I say that i feel no remorse for the action but rather the results of it probably sounds really bad.

But that just stems from our moral mind maps. My morals say that I shouldn't hurt people because I don't like being hurt. I don't like to be the cause of hurt. There will be times when I do so unintentionally and I accept that. But I focus my efforts on the results of my actions, not the actions themselves. This is how I determine whether something is the right course of action, by the results that I think it will bring. I don't judge people on what actions they take, I judge them based on why they took those actions.

Many others view actions through their own lens of morality and judge people based on their actions rather than on how they deal with the consequences of their actions. They are not willing to accept that good people sometimes do bad things. That's their prerogative; I accept that, so why can't others accept my viewpoint without calling me cold/aloof/detached?

... and No (I don't think that's the case). I am a very empathetic person, sometimes too empathetic. Again, please don't confuse the fact that I'm being clinical with a lack of empathy. Again, I am simply exposing my decision making process here, I'm not baring all of what I'm thinking or feeling. I am trying to keep this simple; the OP was a plea for help by someone who was struggling.



Catherine602 said:


> You seem self-absorbed and overly confident in your intellectual abilities. Perhaps your problems in your marriage and your misinterpretation of social exchange is evidence of a more fundamental problem. Would you say you have narcissistic tendencies?


I was wondering when someone would bring NPD up. 

No, I do not have NPD. However, that's another indefensible position because you don't know me and you're never going to get to know me without me putting even longer posts on the site which, actually, will only reinforce the opinion that I am full of myself and just like to talk about 'me me me'.

Lose-lose. I'll chose lose thanks.

I will say, though, that I do know two true narcissists. I am nothing like them.

For the problems in my marriage, yes some of them are my fault. I accept that too and now that we're out of our comfort zone and have a reason to get MC, I can deal with them. I can commit to change my behaviors so long as she can commit to hold me to it and also to change hers. Simple. Whether it will work or not is another question but given that I've never been where I am today, I've no idea.

But to those of you who say, "it won't work because you're xyz" I can only say, "**** off, I didn't ask you".


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think it is important for your sake, to explore your need to gather evidence of her interest rather than accept that she was clearly not as interested in you as you were in her. 

This is an important step for you to take. It will allow you to let go and focus on the real problem, you relationship with your wife. I feel that your main problem is intense anger at your wife and loneliness rather than infidelity. 

My impression is that your part in the marital problem may have been confusion over your wife's change after the birth. As you said, she may have had PPD and she may have needed your help and nurturing to overcome her depression. You may have withdrawn because you were unaware of what she was enduring. 

It would be valuable to you to look back and be brutally honest with yourself about the level of self interest and lack of compassion, love and patience your showed your wife during the postpartum period. 

If she needed you at that time and your were busy with getting her to meet your needs, that might have shut her down. Contrary to the generally accepted timing of 6 - 8 weeks to recover, it actually takes about 6 - 9 months of progressive improvement to get back to normal. 

Believe me I know what I am talking about because it happened to my husband and I. It almost resulted in me walking away. I did not understand his feelings of being shut out after the babies were born and he did not understand how exhausted I was and how I needed his help. 

I lavished attention on them and forgot the maker of the feast and father of my precious babies. What helped us was that I happened to come upon the books in my signature. They were a revelation to me. We have recovered very nicely through a lot of hard work.

May I suggest that you read those books? Also, I think if your apply your sharp intellect to solving your marital problem, you will make more progress toward personal happiness. 

In my marriage, I was the one to make the first move to recover my marriage. I admitted to myself and my husband that I forgot to be a wife when I became a mother. He admitted that he was impatient with me and his withdrawal was wrong. 

Take a chance and reach out to your wife. First, do some reading about where you may have gone wrong. The more you take ownership of your contribution to the marital problems, the better you will be as a man and partner. Walking away will not solve your problem, you carry them with you. 

Please try to return your wife's kindness and helpfulness. Please don't treat her badly even though you feel resentful.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think it is important for your sake, to explore your need to gather evidence of her interest rather than accept that she was clearly not as interested in you as you were in her.


It was less a case of gathering evidence and more a case of knowing what was going on inside of her head so that I could minimize the hurt to both of us. If she had no other interest in me other than physical then I didn't need to worry about her. If she was carrying guilt because she'd thought that she'd interfered with my marriage then I could assuage that guilt by telling her it wasn't her fault and offer whatever forgiveness she needed. If she was embarrassed, I could easily deal with that too. If she was romantically interested then that would have complicated things. I won't lie that, secretly, this is what I both yearned and dreaded. When the freight train hit [reference to the OP], I had decided that I couldn't leave my life for another woman (because the only conclusion that I drew to starting a physical A was the end of my marriage) and that it had to be for me if I was going to leave. I also knew that by the time that I figured it out, she'd be long gone. So I'd hoped for the tearful-but-happy reconciliation, stiff upper lip and all that while we move back into our lives, etc, etc.

I haven't explained the background behind the circumstances leading up to all of this very well. The summary is that I'd been away for months, and the work was demanding but also quite visible and rewarding. I was sleeping okay for the first 4 weeks but then I started getting 3-4 hrs/night for the next 6 weeks (and OW wasn't doing much better). Collectively, we were spending more in expenses than our gross salaries on trains, flights, eating out together most nights and sharing each other's company as we were doing it. We were in a crucible; an artificial environment and that fact has never escaped my notice.

At work, we were partners and equals. After work, we were friends and travel companions. On weekends, we were friends and often joked and traded texts about our lives, all rather innocently.

At work, when one of us flagged, we'd give the other a gentle nudge to get them back on track. She and I worked so well together that we communicated with short glances and that kind of comfort and understanding didn't go unnoticed to those around us. People often asked us if were were together. "Of course not", though a few people were egging us on. One coworker went so far as to say, to me, 

_"Where is your wife?"
"At home with my daughter."_
With a very serious face, _"No, I mean your real wife."_

I laughed it off [he didn't] but that kind of thing gets in your head.

Another person, a manager, told me that all of the signs were there and that I was an idiot not to act on them. (He knew I was married with child). I'd seen the same signs he had but was so focused on staying inside of the 'colleague' box that I second guessed everything until the unnecessary physical contact started happening, which, for the record, I was not unhappy about and even encouraged earlier on in the relationship.

However, given that just two days before, the freight train had mauled me, I was emotionally unprepared to deal with anything at all, let alone migrating to what looked like might be something physical.

That was at work. On the weekends, I would go home only to find the mundane home life so alien that I'd spend the first day sitting in my chair wondering where I was and the next day trying desperately to reconnect. I'd lost any emotional connection to my home and the people in it (I remember, once, looking at my DD once and seeing just an object that happened to move and make sound; it scared the hell out of me). At the end of the project, I actually cried when I checked out of the hotel for the last time because I felt like I was leaving my real home.

OW had become my emotional pillar (and I hers, she being on the rebound of a protracted breakup) and when I tried to talk to her about it, she collapsed and, as a result, so did I.

That left me trying to repair the damage to the relationship that I'd caused and trying to reconnect with her because she was all that I had. I'd hurt her and I needed to help her in the way that I always had. She was my very best friend and she was all I had left.

It's easy to be logical about all of this now but when you're in the middle of it, it's nigh on impossible to keep your head about you. Too many things converging in one spot.

So when you ask me if I've had work relationships like this with my male colleagues, I can answer, unequivocally and quite emphatically, no I have not.

Aaaaaand... cue more people telling me to quit my job because it's interfering with my marriage.

No. 

I have already made arrangements with my boss to minimize the travel that I do citing marital problems as a result. My boss has been receptive to the idea and says, "family first".



Catherine602 said:


> ... I feel that your main problem is intense anger at your wife and loneliness rather than infidelity.


I understand why the EA happened. It does not bother me that it did and I even see it as being understandable given the circumstances that we were in.

re: my W, yes there is anger, for her being lazy. Hurt for constantly being rejected and being given no reason why and any effort that I made to talk about it was avoided or I was lied to (though I now understand why this happened also). For the EA, I felt guilt, confusion and conflict too and often thought that if I could do that maybe I did just need to leave.

I wasn't kidding though; I am not going back to my old marriage.



Catherine602 said:


> My impression is that your part in the marital problem may have been confusion over your wife's change after the birth.


That crystallized it, yes. The beginnings of the anger started before that. Mostly I was angry at her for being lazy and not having any goals in life.

The marriage has always centered around me as the decision maker, provider and general care taker. My W's role was usually recreational. When she worked it was generally for fun and the proceeds of her work was usually pissed away rather than being put into the betterment of the whole. I didn't understand that her buying her little trinkets was her filling a hole in herself that she didn't know existed.

When she didn't work, she didn't take care of the household (despite her commitment to do so) so I did a lot of that too. And nothing ever really got done unless I initiated it.

Yeah, I'm angry. But at least I used to get laid. When that dried up, I couldn't see any reason for being around anymore other than for my daughter. I didn't want my daughter to grow up to be as unmotivated as my wife.

Over the last month or so, when I've been able to drag my thoughts away from OW, this has been chief on my mind. There are many stories behind this also but this post is long enough.



Catherine602 said:


> As you said, she may have had PPD and she may have needed your help and nurturing to overcome her depression. You may have withdrawn because you were unaware of what she was enduring.


Agreed, I've taken ownership of that. The biggest perception gap that I have with my wife is my perception of her. When you get right down to it, I do not respect her anymore. I'm not actually sure that I ever have. I've just been able to bury that in my work because my work has always been so demanding of me. I'm a workaholic.

My W is not. I view her as a quitter and it drives me absolutely insane so when she whines about something being hard; it triggers my immediate response of "oh tighten up and get on with it". I used to be very supportive and I used to be very gentle when pushing her out of her comfort zone but that frustration has worn my ability to be gentle down. This, of course, comes across as criticism.



Catherine602 said:


> It would be valuable to you to look back and be brutally honest with yourself about the level of self interest and lack of compassion, love and patience your showed your wife during the postpartum period.


I have not been a good husband in the last year. I have helped out at home, I have helped cook, clean and take care of our DD. The year before that I had checked out for a while as I was dealing with my own issues relating to a sense of non-progress.

The first year, I was engaged in raising our DD but not as much as I could have been. I was still learning how to be a dad and I didn't know what to expect. I was constantly worrying about behaviors of our DD that could be the result of mental conditions (like autism) so that I could get her the help she needed at as an early an age as possible. My W took this as me looking for flaws in our DD.

For child rearing, I'm very strict, my W is not. My wife panders to our DD and I do not. I find it telling that when our DD misbehaves and is challenged on it, she instantly starts crying and asks for mommy who wraps her up in her arms and coos. Trigger!



Catherine602 said:


> Believe me I know what I am talking about because it happened to my husband and I. It almost resulted in me walking away. I did not understand his feelings of being shut out after the babies were born and he did not understand how exhausted I was and how I needed his help.
> 
> I lavished attention on them and forgot the maker of the feast and father of my precious babies. What helped us was that I happened to come upon the books in my signature. They were a revelation to me. We have recovered very nicely through a lot of hard work.
> 
> May I suggest that you read those books?


Thank you for relating your own experience to me and giving me some context, I'll read them.



Catherine602 said:


> Also, I think if you apply your sharp intellect to solving your marital problem, you will make more progress toward personal happiness.


This is going to sound weird but please don't compliment me. Until I know you, I won't trust your motives so saying that I have a 'sharp intellect' will take me longer to accept what you have to say because I will first try to determine if said compliment is disingenuous/patronizing and, therefore, manipulative. Just the facts, mam. Thanks. 

Again, I know it's weird, but TAM has put me on the defensive from the first second that I arrived. You can also probably derive, from the above, that I don't trust people easily.



Catherine602 said:


> In my marriage, I was the one to make the first move to recover my marriage. I admitted to myself and my husband that I forgot to be a wife when I became a mother. He admitted that he was impatient with me and his withdrawal was wrong.
> 
> Take a chance and reach out to your wife. First, do some reading about where you may have gone wrong. The more you take ownership of your contribution to the marital problems, the better you will be as a man and partner. Walking away will not solve your problem, you carry them with you.
> 
> Please try to return your wife's kindness and helpfulness. Please don't treat her badly even though you feel resentful.


I try not to but I have failed recently because of all of the emotions that I'm feeling as a result of the EA. Loss, guilt, hurt, etc, etc, etc.

I'm working on it. But in order to make any progress, we need to talk more than we are and that's where I'm focusing my efforts; to get her to open up. In truth, I really want her to get angry at me because with that anger comes power and a motivation to talk (or scream) rather than to shut down, which is what she does by default; my W does not do conflict.

Anyways, bed time. 

Thank you for listening and not beating me over the head with the same formulaic rhetoric that so many others have (which amounts to: Step 1 - convince wayward to own the A and feel remorse, often through traumatic confrontation "feel remorse or D"; Step 2 - "Plan A").

And thank you for giving me insight into your own situation and allowing me to relate it to my own and offering me some reading material; your time and introspective questions are appreciated.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

TCx said:


> I wasn't kidding though; I am not going back to my old marriage.


I should clarify this because it sounds like a threat; it's not.

I am not going back to my old M because it was broken. I will make the effort to change my behavior where aberrant/inconsiderate behavior is identified. But I need my W to commit [and follow through] to do the same.

I know this is all very heartless, selfish and controlling given that I'm the wayward, and that I need to give her the time to adjust and process, just like I've had the time to process; I am.

But in truth, if our M isn't fixed both of us will continue to be broken and then TAM will be right; it's time for us to accept it and move on.

Today, this is the truth; let's see if it is still the truth in a few weeks, when we've had some counseling. *shrug*


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

GoingNowhere said:


> Easier said than done: find a new job. I realize how that statement can ignite laughter in anyone. It IS laughable.


What is laughable is to expect his wife to just put up with him being at a job where he is in contact with this OW all the time.

I can guarantee you as long as he is around OW because of the job, reconciliation will be near impossible unless he just expects her to deal with it.


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## FourtyPlus (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't understand what's laughable about it.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Dexter Morgan said:


> ... unless he just expects her to deal with it.


Which I do. I did something that broke the back of the marriage; I violated her trust. If we both decide that we're going to see it through then she needs to trust me again (at some point) or we need to say goodbye.

The difference between the "before" and "after" the EA is that, after counseling, we can make a go, no-go decision... together.

With a 'no-go' it will be hell but my W and DD will get my full support, not because of guilt but because I care for them. There are tangible benefits to a 'no-go', but I won't go there in this thread.

With a 'go' decision, we will be aware of what was wrong and so have a new, more robust, set of vows and we'll both be more aware of their implications (as we both understand marriage a lot more; the innocence is gone). Counseling also gives us more tools to help fix us, both as individuals, and as a couple. But future violations of these vows will mean that we've failed to adjust the behaviors that broke us before and it's a clear indication that we're not working.

I will support my W in any way that I realistically can to get her to trust me, but I will not "re-marry" a martyr. And I *NEED* her not to let me be a martyr either; she needs to be able to tell me, proactively, when I'm being a selfish prick so I can adjust my behavior (and I need to learn to tools to support her in doing this). Communication and follow through have always been our biggest issues; it's what has fostered the anger, hurt and resentment from both sides. If we can't fix those then, for me, it's a 'no-go'.

Thinking of it in these terms, has lifted a huge weight from my shoulders This is how I see the world. My W is still thinking only in terms of 'R' (or so she says) which, scares me because it could lead to commitments being made that she might not actually want to keep once things get 'comfortable' again.

Bringing our two lines of thinking together is going to take some work, and some help.

Question, does this sound like a laundry list of ultimatums by a control freak or do you think I'm starting to get to where I need to be? I sure as heck feel better so that's something.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

TCx said:


> Question, does this sound like a laundry list of ultimatums by a control freak or do you think I'm starting to get to where I need to be? I sure as heck feel better so that's something.


Actually, I retract that question. I've just read through all of my old posts and this one is really just a refinement of what I've already said a couple of times already.

Given that my posts are thematically consistent I am happy that I'm on the right track (for me).


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Not every poster has advice that is suitable to your situation. None some or all may be relevant. My advice is to practice tolerance and restraint when dealing with people who say things you don't like. 

The reason I make the suggestion is that you are being defensive and argumentative and i have no doubt your wife sees this too, am I right? If so, i can understand why she resist your attempts to change her. She is resisting you in the only way a person who feels powerless and hopeless to please their tormentor, passive- aggressive behavior. 

In defense of your wife - i dont know the full story but using what you said here this is what i think and leave for your consideration. Your wife knows your faults better than you do because she lives with you and is on the receiving end. 

If messiness and lazyness are her main problems then your faults are, by comparison, more serious in my opinion. They destroy her spirit and that of your daughter.

The father is the single greatest influence on his daughters sense of herself as a woman, not her mother. If you don't believe me look it up. If you find her mother contemptible then by extension you find your daughter contemptible as well. 

You are the archetypal male in your daughter's life and your wife is the model of your daughter as an adult. She is learning what to expect from men when she becomes a woman. 

It is common for men who do not love their wives to think no other man will, but i beg to differ. Your wife will most likely meet a man, she will avoid a man like you - she may perceive you as perfectionist, critical, supercilious, prickly, cold, and lacking in insight when it comes to your faults. 

If her perception is correct then you carry those problems with you and will likely have a string of failed relationships until you accept that it is you not them. 

If your wife meets a man who is warm, and supportive and loves her, mess and all, she may blossom and reach her potential. 

Your daughter will have a model of a man who is loving towards her mother and this will be her model for her own vision of herself. This seems the best time to divorce as you are both young enough to find new partners and your daughter is young enough to bond with a new father figure.

Frankly, if she were posting, I would advise her to divorce and start fresh with someone new. In my estimation, you seem to be incompatible and there are too many negatives for her. 

I cannot see why she stays except that for the time being she is stuck. It may take her time to move from the shocked stage to anger and then to a decision to leave.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

TCx said:


> Actually, I retract that question. I've just read through all of my old posts and this one is really just a refinement of what I've already said a couple of times already.
> .


It may be a refinement but the refinement is critical. Your tenor has changed to that of a man who will do what it takes rather than one that expects his wife to do the heavy lifting. You say I take all the negatives, but that is how your wife is seeing it and HOW you say it will deeply effect her mental state. 

I generally agree with you that this is a new marriage and you both have to learn to negotiate better, but her pain is real and you need to keep that in mind when your communicating. This is not a business deal..


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

TCx said:


> Which I do. I did something that broke the back of the marriage; I violated her trust. If we both decide that we're going to see it through *then she needs to trust me again* (at some point) or we need to say goodbye.


Well gee, that works for you doesn't it, but not so much for her.

Granted you are correct, at some point she needs to trust you again, but its the expecting her to just deal with you being around the OW part that is a little hard to swallow.

So basically you are saying, "I'm, going to be around the other woman, so just deal with it"

Wow, you want this like Burger King. Your way.

But even if trust is regained, never expect it to be 100% ever again. She will more than likely have some level of cynicism. And frankly, she is entitled to it.




> With a 'go' decision, we will be aware of what was wrong and so have a new, more robust, set of vows and we'll both be more aware of their implications


You mean you weren't aware of the implications and consequences of cheating in the first place?

So you get to break the vows and create new ones. What if she ends up breaking the new ones? You going to understand and give her the same chance you expect? 

Really think about that, don't just say yes since it hasn't happened. Would you be as forgiving as you expect if you knew she really wanted to be with another man, or was with another man? Because its really easy to say the things you are saying because you are the one that did the betraying.




> Counseling also gives us more tools to help fix us, both as individuals, and as a couple.


I agree with you there.




> But future violations of these vows will mean that we've failed to adjust the behaviors that broke us before and it's a clear indication that we're not working.



So basically you got to screw up, but she will not be allowed to screw up once as you did. Not advocating that she is entitled to go out and test the waters like you did, but not fair at the same time.




> I will support my W in any way that I realistically can to get her to trust me


Would this mean that if she expects your butt to be home with her, and not, for example, being out with the guys or having drinks with a group without her around, you are willing to sacrifice a little freedom?




> but I will not "re-marry" a martyr. And I *NEED* her not to let me be a martyr either; she needs to be able to tell me, proactively, when I'm being a selfish prick so I can adjust my behavior


You just said you will have a "new" set of vows and will understand the "implications" of what you have done. So why would she need to tell you anything. If you haven't figured it out after screwing up the first time, maybe you just need to do her the favor and file for divorce now.




> Thinking of it in these terms, has lifted a huge weight from my shoulders This is how I see the world. My W is still thinking only in terms of 'R' (or so she says) which, scares me because it could lead to commitments being made that she might not actually want to keep once things get 'comfortable' again.
> 
> Question, *does this sound like a laundry list of ultimatums by a control freak* or do you think I'm starting to get to where I need to be? I sure as heck feel better so that's something.


If by referring to yourself as the control freak, then yes, that is what it sounds like.

It is a scary thought that the one that cheated would act like a "just get over it" control freak. Now if she ended up being a control freak for just a short period of time, I wouldn't blame her. I think a cheater needs to lose some freedoms for a while if they truly are interested in proving to the BS that it won't happen again.

And if they aren't willing to do whatever it takes to undo the emotional abuse they bestowed on their spouse by betraying them, then there is no sense if trying to recover the marriage. Best to just set the BS free


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## Dexter Morgan (Dec 8, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Not every poster has advice that is suitable to your situation. None some or all may be relevant. My advice is to practice tolerance and restraint when dealing with people who say things you don't like.


He needs to practice tolerance and restraint with his wife whom he cause so much pain. He needs to be patient with her.

But from what he is saying, that isn't going to happen. There is a "just get over it" mentality happening here.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Dexter Morgan said:


> He needs to practice tolerance and restraint with his wife whom he cause so much pain. He needs to be patient with her.
> 
> But from what he is saying, that isn't going to happen. There is a "just get over it" mentality happening here.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

My H of 18 years had a 6 week EA with a co worker in April. He swears it is over and I have absolutely no proof that it is continuing, however, the fact that he sees her everyday at work absolutely kills me. I suffer from extreme anxiety and panic attacks because of it. My H moved out before Xmas. Well he just sleeps elsewhere, he is home everyday!! I adore my H. I want nothing more than for us to be together BUT while he still works withthe OW i fear there is no hope for us. I have to deal with him seeing her everyday and HE also has too. he says seeing her everyday reminds him of the hurt and pain he has caused to me and to her. I am positive that if hecould find another job the chances of a successful R would be doubled. But I fear that if he remains there I will never be able to recover from His EA.
Just wanted to give you a BS view on the work situation. I'm not telling you to quit your job, just hoping to help you understand how your wife might be feeling.
I wish you both well x
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

daisygirl 41 said:


> But I fear that if he remains there I will never be able to recover from His EA.
> 
> Just wanted to give you a BS view on the work situation. I'm not telling you to quit your job, just hoping to help you understand how your wife might be feeling.
> I wish you both well x
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for this and sorry for the long delay in reply; I'd been banned for a comment in another thread.

I can understand your point of view. Depending on how far down the line he got with his EA, he could very well be in love with her. TAM calls it "the fog"; a chemical addiction. For some, that is a means of demeaning what he's feeling but if he ever loved you then he is having those same irrational feelings/thoughts of attraction for her that he was for you at the beginning. Those feelings/thoughts are not hard to ignore; I can vouch for that.

Can I ask you something? Why do you fear that *you* will never recover from his EA? Is it the fear of more betrayal of your trust or the fear of losing him or other things? Is it that you fear that he still loves this OW? (I'm sure he does) How does that make you feel?

I understand the hurt that the BS goes through and how hard the BS finds it to forgive. For my part, my wife has told me, quite simply, that I really need to stop coming to TAM because all it did was feed me a bunch of unnecessary negativity. She said that, "You need to remember that the people on sites like those are there because they still need to be there. They are still sorting out their emotions; it is their support network. And you being a cheater means that you are a fresh new punching bag for them to beat up on. Of course the BS' hate you; you embody all of the pain that they are experiencing and because you can sound cold when you are in 'analysis mode' of course they think you are NPD."

So let me ask you this; do you think your H would stray again? More importantly, does he *want* to stray again? And have you two talked about it. This is one thing that MC drove home for me. The ability to talk to your OH honestly about any topic no matter how much it hurt.

My W said something that was very sage:

"I forgive you but that doesn't matter. You need to forgive yourself for the A because until you do, you can never R. I am not asking you to get over OW; you are in love with her and I'm not naive enough to think that I am the only woman in the world with whom you could fall in love. We were having problems in our marriage and both of us were unhappy; you'd lost your emotional anchors at home and you spent all of your time with OW. And now, you are going through a breakup with her."

Because I was so used to the negativity offered by TAM BS's, I asked her how she could be so calm and forgiving and was she worried that I'd stray with OW again.

Her response, _"What you do is up to you. I could dwell on the past and I could keep asking myself, "what if, what if, what if" but doing that only winds me up and sends me off spinning. So I don't do it. I just tell myself that you have made a commitment to me to work on things and I believe you because I know who you are. I know that you will keep your word. And if you don't then that tells me that you have made your decision. Does it hurt? Yes. But I'm dealing with it.

If we don't make it then we don't make it. I will move away and start over and you will start a new life as well. I have seen just how good a D can be because my parents are best friends now and are much happier than they ever were when they were married. I know that you and I would be the same because I would not hold a grudge and you would feel too guilty to. I would be hurt and I would cry for a long time but in the end, I would be okay."_ Note: I am paraphrasing here; the above is actually the amalgam of several conversations.

Also, her best friend told me, "You know, you're being a dumbass drama queen. Yes, you fell for someone else, it happens. But the key here is that when you were presented with the opportunity for the EA to become a PA, you couldn't do it, for whatever reason. You get at least a small number of points for that".

So my wife and her friend took all of the pressure off of me and allowed me to actually analyze the thoughts and feelings that are going through my head without the guilt and hurt that was destroying me. I already felt horrible about hurting people around me but when TAM started hitting me with NPD and that I was tormenting my W, it took its toll on my psyche; I fought it but I hated myself. Thoughts of suicide (which I view as despicable) starting popping up, though I think that's more because of the sheer number of different things that have hit us in the last few months; the EA being one of them.

Anyways, this lack of pressure has allowed me to sort through what my feelings actually are instead of clouding them with external motivators. More importantly, it allowed me to view my W in a light that I've never seen her in before. She showed me that she is stronger than I think she is.

She has told me what she wants from us and she hopes that I want the same things and I just need to figure out what I want. We have both committed to learning how to communicate through MC. That improved communication is, ultimately, what is going to be the deciding factor for us as to whether we want to stay together.

I have already grieved for the loss of my daughter, wife/marriage, possessions, paycheque, etc and that too has made everything easier. I am now prepared to split of that is what we decide to do.

On that front, I have good days and bad days. Some days I just want to walk out the door, others I can't imagine myself even considering it. But it's all part of the healing process and I'm lucky enough to have a W that understands that and can actually handle me coming home and talking about the feelings that I'm having. She's not monitoring my internet access or checking my phone records because she has decided not to be a martyr. And because she doesn't need to do these things, I feel no need to hide anything from her. This is very much her doing a 180 but speaking from experience, not having all of that pressure on me is liberating. It allows me to explore avenues of thought that might lead to dead ends and then come back and find the route out.

If I see OW, I tell my W and I tell her how that made me feel and I apologize for the fact that I'm going to spiral for another day or two. She's okay with me having good and bad days. It hurts her, yes, but she understands and she's been through breakups before; she knows how much they hurt.

I think that the biggest thing that I have taken away from my wife on this is that my W is not a BS in that she does not feel betrayed. "You made a mistake, it happened, it can't be changed. So now let's figure out why it happened and if we want to fix it".

Yes, she is a saint.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Your wife sounds a lot like mine - congratulations you have an amazing partner. Take her at her word that she is moving on from your affair, but also know that she will still be wrestling with it for quite sometime. My wife adopted many of the same positions after D-Day of my EA, yet now - 17 months post - she will still trigger occasionally. We talk about it, she calls me a dumb ass, we have a laugh and move on. It takes a while. 

Don't violate her trust again, or as my wife tells me, "don't make me stupid." 

As far as your AP, just maintain no contact. Time will fade the memory and dull the pain. Like your wife, you'll have good days and bad for a while but as time goes on it will fade - as long as you maintain no contact I promise this.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

This thread has been idle a while as we've been getting on with life. I thought I'd give an update to how things are going. So here we go.

*MC: Finished*

It was an interesting experience. I would say that it was more of a vent session for me than anything. For the first few sessions I tried to be as passive as possible so as to give my W the ability to talk in a neutral environment.

*Marital Status: Separated (beginning July 2012)*

My W and I kind of mutually agreed that her trip back to our home country would be a kind of separation. She would look into the costs of living, evaluate her life there while I had time to think about things.

I'm happy that we separated because, because my W and I had stopped talking once MC was over. In fact, we never really started communicating effectively outside of MC. In many respects, my W would just cry and shutdown, which was her pattern throughout most of the marriage. So what did we identify as our issues?

Me:

I do not accept things at face value. Guilty. It frustrates my W that I am always looking for underlying motives and I do. But this as because she has never been open or really honest with me (lots of little lies); ergo I do not trust her when she says things and I have to dig for the truth.
I am argumentative. Looking through her eyes, this is true. To me, everything must have a reason. This frustrates my W because she will just go where her emotions take her without really thinking about it where as I look for understanding of the motivators behind the emotions.
I am critical. Guilty. I do have opinions on how things should be done and I often communicate them. Because of my W's self esteem issues, she always assumes that I'm being critical when I disagree with her.


Her:

She hides from things that cause her distress. She is afraid of me leaving so she avoids me; we don't talk unless I force the issue. Our MC said that my W reminded her of a little girl that was hiding under the covers from a great big monster.
We speak different love languages. The only tool that my W has to find and communicate love is through showing affection. I, on the other hand, find love through communication and express my love through displays of affection. So we aren't communicating properly. She shows me affection to get love and I don't want to reciprocate that affection until we've talked about things because I don't want to be disingenuous with her as this has been a process of "what do we do" not "let's do everything we can to R". 'R' without thought leads to 'R' to a marriage that I wasn't happy with. To her, this was pure rejection. 

In many ways, the MC was successful. In other ways, it was not. The MC kept asking us, "what is your goal for MC?" and we kept saying 'communicate better'. But the problem was that MC became the only place where we talked about things. Outside of MC we didn't.

I didn't because I was afraid of hurting my W even more. Because all she ever did was cry and shut down. My W didn't because she was afraid of what I had to say. We had both lost our 'voice' in the relationship.

And that is where we are today. We are separated and we were not talking about much of anything... until last night. We had a good two hour conversation where we both said that we forgave each other for lots of things, said that we loved each other and that we would always love each other, no matter what happened. And I firmly believe this btw. I do love my W. I will always love my W.

She promised me that she would change, that she wanted to change, not because she was afraid to lose me but because she loved me (I'm having trouble seeing the difference) and that she realized that she would never be happy unless she learned to open up to people. But given the years of her previous behavior, I'm having difficulty believing her or thinking that she can do it.

I asked her what she thought she needed to change and she recounted all of the things from above. 

I asked her what she thought I needed to change and she said, "You need to learn to listen". I'm not sure about this one. I *always* listen, but I also *always* offer my viewpoint unless it has nothing to do with me. When I offer my viewpoint, you have to convince me. You have to give me a plausible argument and I'm not sure that she will ever be able to do that.

I think what she's asking me to do is "listen, bite your tongue and let me make my own mistakes". I am okay with the hands off approach when it comes to things that only affect her. But I don't think I have it in me to do that when the situation involves both of us. I *need* to discuss things. It's how I think about a topic; through discussion. I think that is the fundamental difference between us.

She takes everything I say as law or 'direction' and that stems from her childhood; her mom and her dad. In many ways, though, that desire for me to just support her is at direct odds with me. She is basically saying that in order for her to have her voice in the M, I must lose mine. I can't see how that is going to work.

*Future: Divorce? Right now it seems likely*

I've read a lot of people asking, "How do you know when it's time to D". And the response has been "when the time comes, you just know". I have been in that place so many times over the last few weeks but I have never known 'why' (or I haven't been able to admit it to myself).

And then I would talk to her on the phone and her voice just calmed that storm. Until yesterday, I was 100% sure we were heading for D. Last night, after our talk and our confessions, it's thrown me into a bit of disarray again. But I guess that's par for the course.

I've spent today flip/flopping one way and then the other but I keep coming back to, "My W needs to discover who she is. For that to happen, I think she needs to be on her own, discovering who she is. If we can't be equals then we can't be married." That could be as simple as a multi-year separation but I'm not sure that is something that I want. I want to be there for my daughter, which will be impossible, given that we'd live in different countries, but I'm already trying to come up with different options to address that.

I also wonder if I shouldn't stay the course and see if she can pull through this. And yet, 12 years of history... so much history... so many broken promises, from both of us. Staying really would be harder than D. And I wonder if I'm up to it.

Part of me thinks, "Just because you D doesn't mean that there isn't some chance that you won't both want to be together again in the future; once the two of you have grown some" but I am pretty sure that's a pipe dream. I struggle with the finality of D and the very thought that I could want to leave my W when I love her. After all, love is what marriage is all about, right? Wrong.

And yet I struggle with the idea of leaving someone who truly loves me and whom I truly love back. Maybe I just need more time away from her, to continue healing, to forget about the issues that we've had over the years. Maybe I'm just kidding myself. As my MC said, "You have been together for 12 years. You know what is on offer." Yes I do... and yet... that last thread of hope...

As for my OW, I'm not totally over her, per se, but she's made her position clear. I still think of her fondly but that burning obsession has faded. It no longer hurts when I get an email from her or when we talk on the phone [work only]; the worst has passed.

I am actually thankful for having met her though. If not for her, I would not have gone through the complete deconstruction of my life, my personality, my wife, my goals, etc. Our lives really had stagnated. I am sorry to all of the BS's out there, but the EA was a good thing for me and, believe it or not, given time, it will be a good thing for my W too. I honestly hold no regrets for it as it has been such a huge driver of learning and change in our lives. I've learned lessons that I am not sure I would have otherwise. I am a better person for it and I will continue to build on the lessons that I've learned throughout the rest of my life.

I am now comfortable with where we "have been" and while I still struggle on where we "will go", I'm okay now. I have finally found that center that I was looking for when I first came here. I have found that measure of peace.

My journey isn't anywhere near over yet but I've moved much further forward over the last two months (during the separation) than I ever would have with my W at home and with us not really talking. 

Thanks to everyone that provided advice and asked me thought provoking questions.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

...and no... I am not having an A.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Today, I dialed my W's phone number and stared at the phone for a very long time debating whether I should press dial. I put the phone down and picked it back up about a dozen times before I finally counted to three and pressed the dial button.

Just making that phone call is the hardest thing I have ever done. I wish I could have had that conversation face-to-face but that wasn't possible barring flying over an ocean to talk to her. The conversation lasted all of about 10 mins during which time she didn't say a word; she just cried and cried and cried.

I have never wanted to hurt my W, ever, especially not to this extent. I have taken care of her for so long that asking her for a divorce feels like more of a betrayal than any EA ever could. I keep telling myself that this is for the best, for both of us. But it sure as hell doesn't feel that way.

I'm not really sure where to go from here; I guess I'll figure it out. I guess we'll figure it out. Circumstance will force us to, whether we want to or not.

I am so sorry, love.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I just read your entire thread.

I am very sorry that your marriage may end. I think you love your wife very much & her you. 

The vast differences in your communication styles remind me of my 1st marriage. We tried for 22 yrs. When my children were grown, I walked. I was weary & worn down.

Good luck to you.


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## TCx (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks Emerald. I have two questions for you though.

1. Which role did you play in your first marriage; my W or me?
2. Did you identify the issues in the marriage during that time and try to work on them together or did you not realize what was going on and only realized it after you'd left?


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