# Can I really just stand by while someone self destructs?



## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Been quite a while since I've posted anywhere on TAM. Been going through some major thinking and reevaluating of my life. Short version: after the holidays, I think it's time for the big "D." But, that's a story for another thread. This one is about someone else I know.

A friend and his wife have been having problems on and off for the entire length of their marriage (about 10/11 years). They've both come to my wife and I seeking advice over the years, and over the course of the past one or two, his wife (to keep everyone straight, let's give her a name...we'll call her Mary) has come to me for the male perspective on their issues, and she and I have become essentially best friends. (I can feel the disapproving looks of the many here who think such close relationships shouldn't exist between men and women outside of their own marriage.) She's confided self-image issues to me, and revealed that she accepted her husband's proposal mainly because she feared no one else ever would. Anyway, Mary has confided in me that, by the end of the year, she's going to seek a D from her husband (waiting until literally just days after Christmas so their kids can have one last "normal" Christmas). She reached this decision back in September/October. At the beginning of November, a coworker of hers who knows the D is coming set her up on a blind date with a guy she knows. (I call him "Slick"...you'll probably understand why in short order.)

I let her know I didn't think it was a good idea, under the circumstances. But, I figured that, knowing her for about 12 years, I could count on her naturally cautious nature and self-described "glacial pace" in getting comfortable with someone to keep things from getting out of hand. I mean, her first real kiss was with her husband, after quite a while of them dating, and she hyperventilated when it happened. As I started hearing more about the plans for the blind date, red flags started going off for me about Slick. For example, the day of the date, she said she thought that he'd hinted that he wanted to kiss her. I asked how. She said that he told her he had a fever blister, "...so we can wait [on the date] if you want to." I told her that, no...he was planning to, and getting a sense of her response. If he was just being a nice guy, it would come at the end of the date..."I had a great time, and I'd love to kiss you, but..." By her not blinking about, she was giving him the go-ahead. She said that it made her heart race. I asked, "It makes your heart race that he has no problem with giving you herpes the first time you meet?"

The next day, she let slip that, aside from really liking him, he "had trouble keeping his hands off of her." By way of clarification, she said he had hands on the chest over and under clothes and on the crotch over clothes. Further, she "didn't want to stop, but had to get home to go to bed" for work the next morning. She even said that he, "...might be more than just a fling." My shock and disapproval led to quite the argument. She didn't speak to me for a couple of days. When she did, she said that she thinks he might be her "one."

Last week, she let me know that she'd crossed the line to sex with him. It was "the best ever" and he's "opened her to the possibility of doing things she's never wanted to before, because it'll be worth it with him." So, someone who's normally very cautious and reserved went from meeting someone to "the best sex ever" in a week and a half.

I've kept my wife in the loop, and she's consistently shared my analysis. She refers to Slick as a master manipulator and once said, "I've known that [type of] guy many times in my life. Hell...I've *been* that guy myself." To her credit, Mary refers to what she currently feels for him as an infatuation and doesn't flinch or take offense when I refer to him as her "crack addiction."

So, why am I bringing all of this up here? I'm looking for a little outside perspective on things...I'm too close to the issue, since she's my best friend. My wife's too close, because she's known her since Mary and her husband first started dating. You fine folks have no vested interest, so you can look at all of the things that seem to be red flags to me and see if they set off the same alarms for you. Mary's let me express my concerns, but dismisses them because, I "don't understand that he's really a great guy." (Major fog talk, and she refuses to see the fog.)

So, here are the things that give me a bad vibe about Slick...

-The fever blister thing.
-Pushing past the boundaries he did on their first meeting.
-She had a rough day a week or so ago, and reached out to me. Didn't want to "seem needy and risk spoiling a good thing." (Told her everyone has a rough day and needs to lean on someone...if that's enough to spoil it, maybe it's not such a good thing.)
-That same night, he wasn't online and didn't reapind when she did reach out to him. (Great guy, awesome catch, and someone he's supposedly beginning to care about reaches out for comfort and he's totally unavailable until late the next morning? Nah...no way was he on a date. Because he told her so.)
-The first time they had sex, he informed her that he can't "finish" while wearing a condom (a non-negotiable requirement from her), and, sure enough, wasn't able to. The second time, he was, and told her that that was the very first time he'd been able to.
-He's told her that, while he's open to a serious relationship with her once her divorce is done, he understands that their dynamic could change at that point, and it may not be what she wants.
-He's told her he's afraid he's "complicating things"...that if he weren't in the picture, her husband might be able to fix things...that he doesn't want her to divorce just for him.

Naturally, she sees all of this with the best possible spin on it. Meanwhile, I find myself in the position of hoping that this crashes and burns quickly, to get it over with...of being able only to stand by and watch my friend get crushed, and be ready to help pick up the pieces.

So...thoughts? Am I just an overprotective friend, or does this guy seem like bad news?

(And, I also predict being told that I'm focusing on the wrong aspect of it...that I should tell her husband, and let the chips fall where they may. I must say that I can identify with her waiting to pull the trigger until after the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the very same thing.)


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

I think the H needs to know, esp if you are friends with him. 

Slick is slick, but sometimes you can't save people from themselves. He's bad news.....


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

This friendship is going to end badly because...

1) If you let him know what is going on she will hate you.

2) If you don't let him know and he finds out later you knew weeks ahead, he will hate you.

Face it I think it is time to step away from this train wreck AFTER you inform her husband.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Grayson said:


> *I let her know I didn't think it was a good idea, under the circumstances.* /QUOTE]
> 
> I think you made a mistake in giving her this "toned down" advice.
> 
> ...


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

maybe this is a great illuminating display of "the fog"

you could tell her the guy is a serial killer and she would minimize it.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I would also have told her that if you decide to see this OM before you leave your husband; I don't want to know about it. 

But since she confided in you and you didn't tell her that; or that you would tell her husband - you should just stay out of it now and hope he doesn't find out you knew.

Don't mean to be judgemental, but that's what happens when you get all up in married friends' "biness".


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Although I generally advocate you have an obligation to tell Mary's husband, here I do not think so because you agreed to be a sort of "father confessor" to her. Also, she states she is adamant they are divorcing. So I suggest:

1. Tell Mary it is very wrong to see Slick until she and her husband have separated. She is still married and at home with kids. 

2. I'd advise her to let her husband know about the affair. He may or may not care, but this is a betrayal. I doubt she will.

As to Slick, he's a big boy just as Mary is a big girl. I'd stay out of it all past that.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

She is basically becoming a bad person. Her husband needs to know. Do you know her husband reasonably well ? Tell her she needs to tell him immediately or the friendship with her ends now.

If she doesn't, then have somebody drop husband an anonymous tip without you getting involved if you don't want to. Else just tell him outright.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

They are both acquaintances/friends of yours, which makes the loyalties complicated. Doing what is right for Mary may conflict with what is right by her husband.

If Mary really does file for D after Christmas then her current affair is not relevant from the standpoint that her marriage is ending. The affair is not the cause of the D. If the affair is revealed it will not stop the D.

On the other hand, Mary's husband has the right to know that his health is at risk if he is still having sex with Mary.

I think you are under an obligation to Mary not to tell her husband of the impending D. She told you in confidence. However, your friendship with him is over because of what Mary has done. By telling you of her plans she has put you in an impossible position, where you have to choose sides. You chose her side.

At this point I would gracefully withdraw from the situation. I would tell her that I don't condone the affair despite her prior decision to D her husband. I would also tell her that if she decides not to D her husband, I would be obligated to tell him of the affair. If she does D her husband, I would not feel obligated to tell him.

I believe her affair will be obvious very shortly after she tells hubby she wants to D. If not, circumstances may or may not indicate telling hubby about it. I would try to be as distant as possible from the whole train wreck, and honestly I would be more sympathetic to her husband than to Mary.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I just want to know one thing, what are and your friend Mary going to get your spouses for Christmas?

I suggest a pen, I have a feeling that they both will be signing their name a lot.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

So she is such a good friend to you that she can betray someone and knows your character is okay with knowing and covering it? She said she wanted to give the kids one last normal Christmas by sleeping with a guy weeks before and taking the chance that Christmas turns into a nuclear meltdown? THE FIRST GUY SHE MEETS IS "THE ONE"? How old is your friend 6 maybe 7? If this comes out now what kind of Christmas will she have given her kids? This woman is not in a fog she is is at the bottom of the La brea tar pits. What if herpes is not the only thing he has? WOW


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's the thing Grayson. Forget about the other man for a moment. He's two things and two things only; a coc-k hound and a by-product of her bad marriage. If you're interpreting her situation correctly, a miserable marriage, coupled with a low self esteem will morph into a lot of folks seeking affirmation and comfort in the arms of another. You couldn't have stopped it my man. You may be surprised it "went from meeting someone to "the best sex ever" in a week and a half, but I'm surprised she didn't get laid the first time up. With all the probing forbidden place you mentioned, for all intense and purposes, she did. 
Her marriage has been over for years, what little bit of romantic she and he has for each other has bit the dust so the divorce will put a welcome end to their misery. The other man is like the death angel to the walking corpse of the marriage.
Her problem is actually believing this guy really a crap about her and is "the one". He's likely just in it for some easy to get poon tang. Of course it was "the best ever". Look what she's comparing it to.
If I were advising her, I'd tell her to get the divorce but wait until at least a month after Christmas if they're concerned about the kids, and not to be surprised if the fire goes out for either her or new "the one", don't date exclusively and certainly don't get saddled with only one for a good long while. Of course you know she will listen to everything you advise and will follow it to a fault.
Between you and me, I think there may be a part of you that's hoping you'll get a crack at her after ya'll are unencumbered. Hey, good friends need love to.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Self destruct is something someone does to themselves. 

For example, my grad student counselor tells me I am a depressed alcoholic circling the drain. 
Self-destructive. Because it hurts me. And just me. Parents stopped caring long ago. Same with family. 
Only hurts me. 

This is called being a horrible person. 
An affair isn't self-destructive, it's a cold, callous, move by someone. 
And then when they look themselves in the mirror, instead of realizing the horrible person they've become, they rationalize their behavior. 
This woman is engaging behavior that will destroy her husband and mess with her kids. 

If I was in your situation, I would look at it like this:
No matter what you do, people are going to hate you. If you don't tell, and the husband finds out, he'll hate you. If you do tell, she'll hate you. 
I personally would tell the husband now. 
I'd rather have him at first hate me, then realize I was doing him a favor and want to (hopefully) stay friends. 
And I'd cut The Slvt Mary (anti-Christmas reference FTW) from my life entirely. I wouldn't want her around anyone. My spouse, my kids, my friends, etc.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Stop being her confidante.

You are helping her to enjoy this ruinous path.

I think you even get a vicarious thrill out of it.

tell her you won't participate anymore and that she has to tell her husband--especially since she is screwing a guy who has an active herpes outbreak--at least.

Then back away from these people.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't share secrets for people doing wrong things.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Say this to her: "Well, Mary, if you have sex with Slick, at least do your husband the favour of not giving him an STD before you drop the hammer on him."

And as this jet plane is going down, may I suggest you use your ejector seat to escape the flaming wreckage?


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## verpin zal (Feb 23, 2013)

Your friend's wife plans to bang another guy and you share the secret.

When it all comes out in the open, you'll be the first one to have a finger pointed at, keep that in mind. Either from the "wife" as "he was my confidante, he knew everything" or from the husband as "you knew everything and told me nothing, you enabled her". Or both.


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

What a friend Right ? tell the man he need to know the truth


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## Flying_Dutchman (Oct 29, 2014)

I think Mary knows exactly what she's doing.

She must've played her part in the turmoils of her marriage.

She has you giving her attention - but punishes you for two days when you criticise her.

Big Bad Slick? He's not cheating on anybody or favouring one friend over another. He's not promising Mary an island in the Caribbean or even true love. He's dropping heavy hints he's not in it for the long haul. For a 'player' that's pretty honest.

He didn't push past any boundaries. Mary herself loved it and, if she didn't have to be home, woulda let him push his boundary all the way in.

Having a fling with a single guy who wasn't a factor in her upcoming D doesn't even qualify for a Lifetime movie. There's barely any drama,, much less any self destruction. If she cries when he dumps her they'll be the only tears shed. Olivia Newton-John in Grease sank lower than this.

Nooo,, Slick ain't so bad. Mary's a little naughty. Your wife and her hubby are out of the picture. Then there's you,,, seeking D yourself and Mary's best friend.

One has to wonder if therein is the reason why this is a drama to you.

You HATE slick when he can't be anyone's go-to image of a sleazy player. Just a guy getting his end away. Your loyalty to your friends is entirely for Mary. Your W will soon be ExW.

Perfect. Single you and single bestie Mary,, till slick done threatened to take her away and soiled her.

Not hard to see how this non-drama might seem akin to destruction when viewed through a green eyed lens.

What better GF than a best friend GF? Tis the thing dreams are made of. A few more decades,, your very own Notebook nostalgia weepy.

Own up. You gots da hots!

Hang in there. What better arms to hold her when Slick gives her the flick? We already know she likes her boundaries pushed on the first date. It's almost a done deal. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How old is Mary?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

So while your marriage is failing and Mary's marriage is failing, you guys have become best friends. I get that we can have OSF and all but this sounds more like setting something up for later than being a friend. Now when Mary hooks up with Joe magic c*ck, guess who's all upset and worried about her? He's messing up the plan. What about Mr Mary and the fact he's being cheated on by Mary. Maybe he's best friends with Mrs Grayson and she'll tell him all about it.


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## chaos (Mar 9, 2012)

You said your piece to Mary, now allow her the freedom to spectacularly crash and burn after Slick has had his fill of her.

But more importantly is why do you want to continue being the friend of a woman who will do this to her husband? - who may be completely unaware of what is happening and whose life and health may be at risk. Why?


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Grayson said:


> So...thoughts? Am I just an overprotective friend, or does this guy seem like bad news?
> 
> (And, I also predict being told that I'm focusing on the wrong aspect of it...that I should tell her husband, and let the chips fall where they may. I must say that I can identify with her waiting to pull the trigger until after the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the very same thing.)


Well, Grayson, when I'm not busy evaluating data from the LHC and mathematically proving the existence of the Higgs Boson, I like to wander the emotionally scarred plains of TAM's Coping With Infidelity section, dispensing advice to worthy seekers.

As a thought experiment, I decided to ask myself "what would I, NotLikeYou, do if I were BEST FRIENDS FOREVER with Grayson's wife, who was having an affair with a guy nicknamed Slick, and generally following the script you, Grayson, outlined in your post."

The first thing I came up with was that if I felt like I was BFFs with your wife, I'd want to upgrade to bedmates, and would resent the heck out of the fact that she was givin' it away to Slick. Because, dammit, I'm a better man than him! I REALLY CARE, where he's just a slick talking cheater out for sex.

And I'd loathe myself and doubt my feelings regarding my own wife whom I was planning on divorcing. You seem to have missed this part, but that's okay. There are limits to any thought experiment, and I just can't pretend I don't have a conscience and still "keep it real." Your results may vary. Er, will vary. Uh, seem fundamentally different.

But as much as I'd dislike myself, well, if I could just turn my "friendship" into a "relationship," that would make things more bearable, because, you know, sex.

This would require absolute contempt for you, the husband standing in the way of my happiness. So I wouldn't tell him a damn thing.

Basically, I concluded that the whole situation was eff'ed up, and that I wouldn't want to be in it. Whoever I have as a BEST FRIEND is not going to be so bereft of morals that they cheat on their partner. 

Some famous philosopher once wrote something about evil growing when good men do nothing. Is your world going to be better by you bearing silent witness to your "best friend' acting in a most vile and deceitful manner? Would YOUR world be better if you found yourself betrayed so thoroughly, not just by your spouse, but also by "friends" who knew what was going on but kept the knowledge from you?

You're focusing on the wrong aspect of it?

Hell, yeah!

Instead of focusing on where your loyalties to your friend lie, you should be looking at this as a defining moment in your life.

Because it is.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm wondering if Mary also had a part in Grayson's marriage breaking up.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

the guy said:


> I'm wondering if Mary also had a part in Grayson's marriage breaking up.


Ooh!  That's a thought!


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I must say that I can identify with her waiting to pull the trigger until after the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the very same thing.)


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Thor said:


> They are both acquaintances/friends of yours, which makes the loyalties complicated. Doing what is right for Mary may conflict with what is right by her husband.
> 
> If Mary really does file for D after Christmas then her current affair is not relevant from the standpoint that her marriage is ending. The affair is not the cause of the D. If the affair is revealed it will not stop the D.
> 
> ...


Quite right on the conflicted loyalties. Wife and I both were his friends first, but became better friends with her. She's been begging off of sex with her husband as much as possible since before Slick came along, and that's only increased in the weeks since his arrival on the scene.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

the guy said:


> I just want to know one thing, what are and your friend Mary going to get your spouses for Christmas?
> 
> I suggest a pen, I have a feeling that they both will be signing their name a lot.


Heh.

No idea what she's getting him. Thus far, my wife's getting True Blood season 6 and American Horror Story: Coven. Probably a "big" gift on top of that, too, such as the iPod she's been wanting (since mine will be going with me).


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

ThePheonix said:


> Here's the thing Grayson. Forget about the other man for a moment. He's two things and two things only; a coc-k hound and a by-product of her bad marriage. If you're interpreting her situation correctly, a miserable marriage, coupled with a low self esteem will morph into a lot of folks seeking affirmation and comfort in the arms of another. You couldn't have stopped it my man. You may be surprised it "went from meeting someone to "the best sex ever" in a week and a half, but I'm surprised she didn't get laid the first time up. With all the probing forbidden place you mentioned, for all intense and purposes, she did.
> Her marriage has been over for years, what little bit of romantic she and he has for each other has bit the dust so the divorce will put a welcome end to their misery. The other man is like the death angel to the walking corpse of the marriage.
> Her problem is actually believing this guy really a crap about her and is "the one". He's likely just in it for some easy to get poon tang. Of course it was "the best ever". Look what she's comparing it to.
> If I were advising her, I'd tell her to get the divorce but wait until at least a month after Christmas if they're concerned about the kids, and not to be surprised if the fire goes out for either her or new "the one", don't date exclusively and certainly don't get saddled with only one for a good long while. Of course you know she will listen to everything you advise and will follow it to a fault.
> Between you and me, I think there may be a part of you that's hoping you'll get a crack at her after ya'll are unencumbered. Hey, good friends need love to.


You've encapsulated the advice I've given quite nicely. As you say, she won't hear it. And, I've advised to hold off on telling her husband about the D for a few weeks. She's bound and determined to do it when she is because they're taking an overnight trip and the kids won't be there. I've advised to wait because there's a good chance of her being left stranded a few hours from home if he decides to just leave upon hearing the news or, best case scenario, both be faced with an uncomfortable (to say the least) night in the same room, followed by a drive of a few hours home together. If no one else will, we'll watch the kids for an evening while they have The Talk a few weeks later.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why can't she even wait until Christmas to f*ck other people the ? What kind of retarded thinking is that? Why the rush ? And the kind of person she was attracted to, I think it tells a lot about her. You see her kind of woman once in a while. 



> waiting until literally just days after Christmas so their kids can have one last "normal" Christmas





> She's confided self-image issues to me, and revealed that she accepted her husband's proposal mainly because she feared no one else ever would


Your friend sounds like a pretty ****ty person. No wonder her marriage failed. Her poor husband.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Heh.
> 
> No idea what she's getting him. Thus far, my wife's getting True Blood season 6 and American Horror Story: Coven. Probably a "big" gift on top of that, too, such as the iPod she's been wanting (since mine will be going with me).


What happened with your wife ? You found out more abput her affair ? That it wasn't a ONS ?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Flying_Dutchman said:


> I think Mary knows exactly what she's doing.
> 
> She must've played her part in the turmoils of her marriage.
> 
> ...


Sure, once upon a time, I had a crush. But, the dynamic to go from friends to "friends" just isn't there.

Nah...I'm just giving her the same feedback that I'd expect from her were our roles reversed.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

the guy said:


> I'm wondering if Mary also had a part in Grayson's marriage breaking up.


Nope.



warlock07 said:


> What happened with your wife ? You found out more abput her affair ? That it wasn't a ONS ?


Found that out long ago, and was ready to walk at that point. Didn't, she did heavy lifting, things got better. Then, about 2 years ago, a total hysterectomy, and she withdrew with the hormone dropoff. Felt more and more like a glorified roommate with each passing month. Told her several times, but she made one half-hearted attempt at hormone therapy, which didn't work, so she stopped trying.

Beginning of the end was this summer...watching this couple and another we know start to fall apart, I literally spelled out in black and white what was wrong, what I felt was missing, and that something needed to change. Her only response was, "I don't know what to say." Since that time in August, no forward movement, no attempts to correct, not even any further verbal response to what I'd told her. So, I finally made my peace with the idea that we're done...beyond the point of repair, as it seems she's only motivated to actually work on us if she's in danger of losing her safety net. I'm waiting til January for much the same reason...this is the first holiday season our son and I will be spending since losing my mom, and it's a tough one on us. Considering his birthday is shortly after Christmas, that's going to be tough, too. So, I don't want to add to that...I choose to carry the weight of knowing by myself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Considering the fever blister and his argument against using a condom, how are you going to feel if she gives your friend an std like herpes on their little trip.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Chaparral said:


> Considering the fever blister and his argument against using a condom, how are you going to feel if she gives your friend an std like herpes on their little trip.


First, incredibly surprised that she'd give him the "one for the road."

Second, incensed.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember a few of your old threads(white elephant). So it wasn't just an EA ?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> I remember a few of your old threads(white elephant). So it wasn't just an EA ?


The one that went for years, I still have no proof went beyond EA (just a gut feeling).

The one that was most certainly a PA (white elephant co-worker), I saw communication a few months later that, given the wording, indicated that it continued past the initial encounter that was caught almost immediately.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Barf!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Her only response was, "I don't know what to say." Since that time in August, no forward movement, no attempts to correct, not even any further verbal response to what I'd told her.


I keep telling you guys that when a woman cheats on you, she's lost interest in you and it doesn't come back. Well maybe 1 time in 1,000. Ya'll want to keep arguing with me.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

How can you not inform her husband ?

Who on this board would not want to be informed of a cheating spouse


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Grayson said:


> So, I finally made my peace with the idea that we're done...beyond the point of repair, as it seems she's only motivated to actually work on us if she's in danger of losing her safety net.


Hmm... sounds familiar...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/235265-i-cheated.html


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I've advised to wait because there's a good chance of her being left stranded a few hours from home if he decides to just leave upon hearing the news


Hmmm. That's called a _consequence_.

Maybe she needs to see a few.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> How can you not inform her husband ?
> 
> Who on this board would not want to be informed of a cheating spouse


Quite frankly, I don't see telling him doing anyone any good. Her mind was set on the D for a good month or two before this guy entered the picture, so it's not like her husband has a chance of fixing things. She's been finding reasons/excuses to avoid sex with her husband since before having sex with Slick, so health isn't an issue. What's currently just tension would explode into outright hostility and fights, and I can relate to not wanting to do that before the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the same thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Say what? He's going to go off with his tail between his legs, thinking it was all his fault. Never knowing she's been boinking another guy. At least knowing that would give him SOME anger back so he can deal with himself.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Grayson said:


> Quite frankly, I don't see telling him doing anyone any good. Her mind was set on the D for a good month or two before this guy entered the picture, so it's not like her husband has a chance of fixing things. She's been finding reasons/excuses to avoid sex with her husband since before having sex with Slick, so health isn't an issue. What's currently just tension would explode into outright hostility and fights, and I can relate to not wanting to do that before the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the same thing.


my guess is you don't know the whole truth, you only have what Mary wanted to tell you. I think she minimized the impact of Slick on her M. It is pretty unfair Mary's H, imo. Maybe I am wrong, but at least the H in this case would quickly realize the M is done, more so than her just filing out of the blue.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> Quite frankly, I don't see telling him doing anyone any good. Her mind was set on the D for a good month or two before this guy entered the picture, so it's not like her husband has a chance of fixing things. She's been finding reasons/excuses to avoid sex with her husband since before having sex with Slick, so health isn't an issue. What's currently just tension would explode into outright hostility and fights, and I can relate to not wanting to do that before the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the same thing.


Do him any good ?????
Happy New Year darling Hubby oh here's a D sorry I've been f*****g a guy but had to wait till after xmas 
Your kidding right, so the husband gets kept in the dark so as not to rock the boat pre xmas and little miss hottie can carry on with the family façade.


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## abart (Aug 5, 2014)

G.J. is right.the husband needs to know


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## shellgames (Sep 2, 2014)

Tell him, get away from her, she is toxic and you may get sucked in more than you are already. You can't fix her and she doesn't want to be helped.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, YOU are one step away from sleeping with her. You know, when the OM mistreats her, she comes running to you, since you're the only person who 'gets' her, she needs a hug, you feel a tug, she turns to look at you oh so innocently...bam, you're having sex.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

naiveonedave said:


> Grayson said:
> 
> 
> > Quite frankly, I don't see telling him doing anyone any good. Her mind was set on the D for a good month or two before this guy entered the picture, so it's not like her husband has a chance of fixing things. She's been finding reasons/excuses to avoid sex with her husband since before having sex with Slick, so health isn't an issue. What's currently just tension would explode into outright hostility and fights, and I can relate to not wanting to do that before the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the same thing.
> ...


Certainly possible that I don't know the WHOLE story. Par for the course when hearing other people's tales. I do know that she had seen a lawyer a good month before her coworker fixed her up with this guy to see about setting the wheels of D in motion.

I know she's got to get her proverbial nose bloodied here, because it's inevitable. I've just never been comfortable with watching anyone that's close to me be foolish this way. I've said in so many words that, were our roles reversed - if, with my own D looming, I let someone set me up on a blind date, during which I tossed my normal boundaries out the window and said the next day that she might be "more than a fling," and not even two weeks later, declared that I'd had the best sex of my life with this virtual stranger - that I feel safe in saying I'd be getting the same reaction from her that she's getting from me...she'd be giving me hell about it at every turn and would be asking the same question I am: "Who are you, and what did you do with the person I've known for 12 years?" It's probably also safe to say that, with everything else going on with me, that it's "easier" to focus elsewhere.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, I meant to say, if she jumped from home to her husband to this man, she's in bad shape. People who do this never learn to stand alone, be ok with themselves, and will make decisions based on what keeps them 'safe'. May want to point that out to her. That if she can't live alone for 6 months to a year without a man in her life, she's going to have problems and make bad choices.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

turnera said:


> IMO, YOU are one step away from sleeping with her. You know, when the OM mistreats her, she comes running to you, since you're the only person who 'gets' her, she needs a hug, you feel a tug, she turns to look at you oh so innocently...bam, you're having sex.


Nah, that's just not us. And especially just not me. I've been Rebound Guy before, in my first significant relationship. I'm most certainly not interested in repeating that experience. I'll be around to help pick up the pieces, just like I would be (and have been) with any other friend, but I've (barely) lived through that friendly help turning into more then going had already in my life. Since that first time, the help picking up the pieces hasn't led to any extracurricular activities, and I don't expect it to this time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Even if she's lying in your arms, or her hand touching your leg, or something similar?

If you say so.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Quite frankly, I don't see telling him doing anyone any good. Her mind was set on the D for a good month or two before this guy entered the picture, so it's not like her husband has a chance of fixing things. She's been finding reasons/excuses to avoid sex with her husband since before having sex with Slick, so health isn't an issue. What's currently just tension would explode into outright hostility and fights, and I can relate to not wanting to do that before the holidays for the kids' sake, because I'm doing the same thing.


Not trying to attack you but would you accept the same from your wife ?

Aren't you in some sense, saying what she is doing is ok in front of your wife ? 

This woman is the same kind who will accept that she "made a mistake towards the biggest love of my life" or she will have"found God" in a few months time. This is a train wreck.

You never spoke much about the H ? What about him ?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Grayson, you are intelligent and have a pretty strong opinion on what is right and wrong for you (even though I may disagree on some of those things) So I say be brave and do what it is you are feeling compelled by your sense of justice to do. I may be a complete random internet stranger to you, but you have my mental and written support on here to get out of your comfort zone if you must.

(I suspect you know that the H has a right to know, else you wouldn't be coming here for advise, right?)


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

turnera said:


> Oh, I meant to say, if she jumped from home to her husband to this man, she's in bad shape. People who do this never learn to stand alone, be ok with themselves, and will make decisions based on what keeps them 'safe'. May want to point that out to her. That if she can't live alone for 6 months to a year without a man in her life, she's going to have problems and make bad choices.


Slightly different than how I've put it, but the gist of this has been part of my litany of things to her. And, relates to another red flag. Since deciding the D is definitely happening, every chance she had, she said that she was going to be in no hurry to jump into a serious relationship...doing so when she wasn't sure it was the right one was what got her into a bad marriage in the first place. Then along comes Slick, who within 12 hours of meeting him, "might be more than a fling." More lip service of not rushing into anything serious, followed by the statement that she has no interest in dating anyone else, with a refusal to acknowledge the inherent contradiction of those two statements.

And, when my wife, who's been in Mary's role in an affair, shares my analysis of the situation and freely compares her mindset at the time to what's on display in Mary, I see no good outcome for her, but my wife and I both know from experience, that it'll take hitting rock bottom for her to snap out of it. It's just in my nature to try to prevent "my people" (as my wife and I refer to our closest friends) from hitting rock bottom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

turnera said:


> Even if she's lying in your arms, or her hand touching your leg, or something similar?
> 
> If you say so.


You know that scene in Back to the Future where Lorraine wants to "park" with Marty, finally plants a kiss on him, and recoils because, "It's like kissing...my brother."?

Yeah...that'd be us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> Not trying to attack you but would you accept the same from your wife ?
> 
> Aren't you in some sense, saying what she is doing is ok in front of your wife ?


No. Wife and I have both said that we can't stand that she's doing it...if it's so "right" (which neither of us thinks it is) it still will be after the D, so cool her jets.



> This woman is the same kind who will accept that she "made a mistake towards the biggest love of my life" or she will have"found God" in a few months time. This is a train wreck.


Agree that it's a train wreck. I've called it such in conversation several times. But if she "finds God," then that will make me wonder even more who the pod person that took her place is.



> You never spoke much about the H ? What about him ?


We knew him first, but came to like her better. In fact, a conversation about how he was like me in being unlucky in love and oblivious to a woman interested in him is what led my wife to make her interest in me clear. He's definitely contributed to the state of their marriage (as has she), and knows that she's been on the verge of leaving at least once before (she's been close twice...I just can't recall at the moment if he knows about the first time or not.) Right before the current round of trouble between them, he pushed for her to get off of birth control to see if it would increase her sex drive (which it did), and was reminded by her that their previous periods of trouble and fighting were also when she was off of BC and her hormones weren't regulated by it. Over the past year or so, wife and I have also noticed an edge to his interactions with her...that, for example, comments that would have once been written off as playful banter had a more biting delivery to them, verging on insult. He's very passive-aggressive in dealing with any problems they have, for example, saying he was open to considering ideas she'd have to try to fix things, while then just ignoring those ideas in the hope that she'd forget about them if they remained unresolved. (He's said as much to me in so many words: "If I don't say anything about it, she'll drop it and move on.") And - and this falls on both of them - each says that the other makes "everything all about the other."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Grayson you know since you and your wife (STBXW) have been part of this story with Mary and Slick, when you announce divorce to your wife after the New year your wife may think that you have someone new.
Is your wife going to be blindsided by this divorce?


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

plain and simple, she cheated. 

She went on a date with this other guy and let him get all over her while she was still married (and I assume living with her H). 

So what happens if they decide not to D after all ? Then she cheated an dhe will have to know.

Your gut feelings were right. What she did was reprehensible and was cheating. the co-worker is a dirtball and Slick is a POS. 

I would tell her that she shouldn't be dating this guy while co-habitating with your husband who you haven't even separated with. I would tell her it's cheating and friends of yours don't cheat and you can't sit back and be part of this. 

Further, what are you going to do now ? If you remain friends with her, you'll definitely have to associate with Slick. Not a good situation


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Lon said:


> Grayson, you are intelligent and have a pretty strong opinion on what is right and wrong for you (even though I may disagree on some of those things) So I say be brave and do what it is you are feeling compelled by your sense of justice to do. I may be a complete random internet stranger to you, but you have my mental and written support on here to get out of your comfort zone if you must.
> 
> (I suspect you know that the H has a right to know, else you wouldn't be coming here for advise, right?)


As shown, I'm honestly on the fence, at most, on the subject. Among the four of us, we've long had period where one would serve as a sounding board and confidant for another (me to Mary now, husband and I in both directions at different points, husband and my wife in both directions the last time Mary was prepared to leave which was around the same time as my wife's A, etc), and the primary rule in place in all of those occasions was that anything and everything discussed in those times never, ever went to the other party's spouse, no matter what it was. If that information was to come out, it would be from spouse to spouse. The "confessional," as it were, has always been inviolate. (For better or for worse.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

I still can not understand anyone with holding this kind of information from some one and especially a so called friend ?

its almost complicate

"I only guarded the prisoners I never shot them"


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

convert said:


> Grayson you know since you and your wife (STBXW) have been part of this story with Mary and Slick, when you announce divorce after the New year your wife may think that you have someone new.
> Is your wife going to be blindsided by this divorce?


She may indeed think I have someone new, but I don't. Not much I can do about her jumping to false conclusions.

Probably somewhat blindsided. A couple of weeks ago, I had a last minute dinner after work with my oldest friend, with everything weighing on me, I just needed to say some things out loud. He'd been made aware a few weeks earlier about my intention to D. When I got home from dinner, and she asked why I'd met with him, I told her the truth: that it had been 3 months at that point since I'd spelled out what was wrong and missing, and she'd yet to respond in word or action; that it felt as if she'd checked out; that I'd withdrawn, too; asked if she realized how long it had been since I'd tried to initiate anything with her (she hadn't); and that, basically, with so much going on this year (death of my mother, stepdad being a jerk in the aftermath, two couples we know well facing disintegrating 10+ year relationships, and our own growing distance), I'm ready for the year to be over. Since then, she started putting on a big show of trying to act affectionate and attentive, but - nerves of making such a big change aside - it's just too little, too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> I still can not understand anyone with holding this kind of information from some one and especially a so called friend ?
> 
> its almost complicate
> 
> "I only guarded the prisoners I never shot them"


I can respect that POV. Really, I can. Under most any other circumstances, I feel confident in saying I'd be right there with you. Maybe it's being so close to the situation, but something stills my tongue in this case. And that's entirely on me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

wmn1 said:


> plain and simple, she cheated.
> 
> She went on a date with this other guy and let him get all over her while she was still married (and I assume living with her H).
> 
> ...


Nope. Not a good one at all. And that's a subject that's come up. She hopes that he and I can be friends, and that I can give him a chance because "he really is a great guy." I've told her fat chance on the first...I won't be openly hostile to him, but don't see us being friends...and as for the second, he's got a helluva lot of work to do to prove that he's not the creep I see him as. He's gotta pass all the "big brother" tests multiple times, and maybe - just maybe - on their 80th anniversary together, I'll shake his hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Nope. Not a good one at all. And that's a subject that's come up. She hopes that he and I can be friends, and that I can give him a chance because "he really is a great guy." I've told her fat chance on the first...I won't be openly hostile to him, but don't see us being friends...and as for the second, he's got a helluva lot of work to do to prove that he's not the creep I see him as. He's gotta pass all the "big brother" tests multiple times, and maybe - just maybe - on their 80th anniversary together, I'll shake his hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Funny, but my STBXW said the same thing about the guys she was cheating with to me. I didn't know she was cheating with them (one was a friend to both of us prior to the A starting, yep looking back a friending player). She thought they were all the salt of the Earth and that we would all be great friends if we could just get together and meet? She said that we would get along great and make good friends as we had so much in common and jobs were alike. One of them even tried to get me a job at his work, so we could move for the better job. After all was revealed, I felt used as the only reason he even broached it was to get her closer to him. Yep can't make this stuff up. They think they are doing nothing wrong and want everything their way.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

Grayson said:


> She may indeed think I have someone new, but I don't. Not much I can do about her jumping to false conclusions.
> 
> Probably somewhat blindsided. A couple of weeks ago, I had a last minute dinner after work with my oldest friend, with everything weighing on me, I just needed to say some things out loud. He'd been made aware a few weeks earlier about my intention to D. When I got home from dinner, and she asked why I'd met with him, I told her the truth: that it had been 3 months at that point since I'd spelled out what was wrong and missing, and she'd yet to respond in word or action; that it felt as if she'd checked out; that I'd withdrawn, too; asked if she realized how long it had been since I'd tried to initiate anything with her (she hadn't); and that, basically, with so much going on this year (death of my mother, stepdad being a jerk in the aftermath, two couples we know well facing disintegrating 10+ year relationships, and our own growing distance), I'm ready for the year to be over. *Since then, she started putting on a big show of trying to act affectionate and attentive*, but - nerves of making such a big change aside - it's just too little, too late.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh man she is not going to take it well, but I know where you are coming from, yea to little to late.

How long ago was her affair or DDay?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Can I really just stand by while someone self destructs?*



Grayson said:


> As shown, I'm honestly on the fence, at most, on the subject. Among the four of us, we've long had period where one would serve as a sounding board and confidant for another (me to Mary now, husband and I in both directions at different points, husband and my wife in both directions the last time Mary was prepared to leave which was around the same time as my wife's A, etc), and the primary rule in place in all of those occasions was that anything and everything discussed in those times never, ever went to the other party's spouse, no matter what it was. If that information was to come out, it would be from spouse to spouse. The "confessional," as it were, has always been inviolate. (For better or for worse.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being prepared to separate is not the same as separating. Even though she may be divorced in her mind it doesn't lessen the fact that she is an adulterer.

As to being each others confidants, I personally think that is a level of intimacy that married people should only participate in with their spouse. If you and your W were in it with her and her H all together, it would remain within healthy bounds. I think the closeness you share with Mary which excludes both of your spouses is inappropriate, and I think it prevents you from having the moral high ground from which your opinion on this affair she is having is respected by her.

I think you are on here asking for help identifying some boundaries for yourself. My suggestion is to pull out of the situation with Mary, focus on the solution to your own marriage problems and your own happiness, and don't engage with Mary until she brings her husband up to speed.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

convert said:


> oh man she is not going to take well, but I know where you are coming from, yea to little to late.
> 
> How long ago was her affair or DDay?


About 4.5 years ago. After a rocky start, we had a good R. Then came the hysterectomy, a nosedive into the dirt for her hormone levels, and an ever-increasing sense that she just didn't give a large, contented rodent's rear about working on us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

G.J. said:


> I still can not understand anyone with holding this kind of information from some one and especially a so called friend ?
> 
> its almost complicate
> 
> "I only guarded the prisoners I never shot them"


Yeah, when Mary's H finds out another man had his penis in her and she was loving it, he will be deeply hurt to the core. As Mary's best friend, Grayson will be seen as a toxic enabler and is going to be hated with a passion for the rest of his life by him, a mortal enemy.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Lon said:


> Yeah, when Mary's H finds out another man had his penis in her and she was loving it, he will be deeply hurt to the core. As Mary's best friend, Grayson will be seen as a toxic enabler and is going to be hated with a passion for the rest of his life by him, a mortal enemy.


Quite likely. I've made my peace with that, for better or for worse, even before Slick came along. I figured I'd end up on his "S" list for "taking her side" and not giving him a heads-up about the D. One way or another, one of the friendships was going to be sacrificed on the altar of their D. At the end of the day, I'm better friends with her than I am with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> Quite likely. I've made my peace with that, for better or for worse, even before Slick came along. I figured I'd end up on his "S" list for "taking her side" and not giving him a heads-up about the D. One way or another, one of the friendships was going to be sacrificed on the altar of their D. At the end of the day, I'm better friends with her than I am with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So its about loyalty and not morals
understand now


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Quite likely. I've made my peace with that, for better or for worse, even before Slick came along. I figured I'd end up on his "S" list for "taking her side" and not giving him a heads-up about the D. One way or another, one of the friendships was going to be sacrificed on the altar of their D. At the end of the day, I'm better friends with her than I am with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It didn't have to be. You could have easily maintained friendships with both, but when you take sides, I agree it is impossible to maintain the two friendships. You could have based your friendships upon your individual interests shared with each and not hiding secrets and supporting the other in their bad habits. Of course this is all a moot point, as you have made your choice and the deeds are done (for which no undoing exists). I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you worse by him revealing the truth to others and ruining your name for being a supporter to cheaters, as he might paint that picture and it wouldn't be a lie. Hope he isn't hurt as he thought the friendship was stronger between you and him (as I know that pain of a friends betrayal all too well).


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> So its about loyalty and not morals
> understand now


I wouldn't say so. The D was in motion, and was not something that was my place to reveal, for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with loyalty. (I wouldn't expect anyone to reveal that information.) The A won't stop or hasten the D. I may (and do) despise it, but what's done is done. I've made my disgust and disapproval known at every opportunity, and informed her of the bad end that I see for her in it. If constantly saying, "You're effing up and are going to find yourself crushed, and here's why." is enabling, I don't know what to tell you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Been quite a while since I've posted anywhere on TAM. Been going through some major thinking and reevaluating of my life. Short version: after the holidays, I think it's time for the big "D." But, that's a story for another thread. This one is about someone else I know.
> 
> A friend and his wife have been having problems on and off for the entire length of their marriage (about 10/11 years). They've both come to my wife and I seeking advice over the years, and over the course of the past one or two, his wife (to keep everyone straight, let's give her a name...we'll call her Mary) has come to me for the male perspective on their issues, and she and I have become essentially best friends. (I can feel the disapproving looks of the many here who think such close relationships shouldn't exist between men and women outside of their own marriage.) She's confided self-image issues to me, and revealed that she accepted her husband's proposal mainly because she feared no one else ever would. Anyway, Mary has confided in me that, by the end of the year, she's going to seek a D from her husband (waiting until literally just days after Christmas so their kids can have one last "normal" Christmas). She reached this decision back in September/October. At the beginning of November, a coworker of hers who knows the D is coming set her up on a blind date with a guy she knows. (I call him "Slick"...you'll probably understand why in short order.)
> 
> ...


In my left hand I have honesty, character & integrity. 
In my right hand I have, "Waiting so their kids can have one last "normal" Christmas".

I get that the WS is starving and the OM looks like ambrosia. 
Same issue we see here all the time... Character vs Entitlement.

OP, if she crossed the line, you need to inform her DH of the PA. A few posts suggest she has not crossed the line because of her intent ... I disagree but ultimately this is your call to make.


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

Lon said:


> Yeah, when Mary's H finds out another man had his penis in her and she was loving it, he will be deeply hurt to the core. As Mary's best friend, Grayson will be seen as a toxic enabler and is going to be hated with a passion for the rest of his life by him, a mortal enemy.


he will be hated by a lot of people around him who know both couples when the truth come out not just the husband ...


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

double post


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> I wouldn't say so. The D was in motion, and was not something that was my place to reveal, for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with loyalty. (I wouldn't expect anyone to reveal that information.) The A won't stop or hasten the D. I may (and do) despise it, but what's done is done. I've made my disgust and disapproval known at every opportunity, and informed her of the bad end that I see for her in it. If constantly saying, "You're effing up and are going to find yourself crushed, and here's why." is enabling, I don't know what to tell you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Soooooo .....its...Loyalty and logic Vs Morals


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> I wouldn't say so. The D was in motion, and was not something that was my place to reveal, for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with loyalty. (I wouldn't expect anyone to reveal that information.) The A won't stop or hasten the D. I may (and do) despise it, but what's done is done. I've made my disgust and disapproval known at every opportunity, and informed her of the bad end that I see for her in it. If constantly saying, "You're effing up and are going to find yourself crushed, and here's why." is enabling, I don't know what to tell you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You only know that the D is in motion as she said so. Until papers are served and the separation is in effect , they are still married. The D can be stopped at anytime, but just because the D desire is there, doesn't make it not adultery and cheating.

Also if you despise it then you should cut the ties and make it known why. Constantly telling her it is wrong, but yet continuing to support her IS the exact definition of enabling (especially when you are hiding things from her spouse) and is sacrificing your morals for her loyalty (don't get me wrong I am not judging just calling it what it is). 

If she was a true friend she wouldn't put you into the position that required you to choose one over the other, and have said she was fine with you remaining friends with both of them despite their marital issues and not made you her crutch and make you privy to information that would hurt your friendship with the other while basically requiring you to keep it secret. 

Sorry but even though she is involved with someone else, you are delving into EA territory with her (as it is possible for her to be in multiple As at the same time, I know as my STBXW was).


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> It didn't have to be. You could have easily maintained friendships with both, but when you take sides, I agree it is impossible to maintain the two friendships. You could have based your friendships upon your individual interests shared with each and not hiding secrets and supporting the other in their bad habits. Of course this is all a moot point, as you have made your choice and the deeds are done (for which no undoing exists). I hope this doesn't come back to hurt you worse by him revealing the truth to others and ruining your name for being a supporter to cheaters, as he might paint that picture and it wouldn't be a lie. Hope he isn't hurt as he thought the friendship was stronger between you and him (as I know that pain of a friends betrayal all too well).


Maybe so. But, I sincerely think that, even if I didn't know about the D or the A, he would conclude that I did know. (Of course, we don't live in the alternate universe where I don't know, so it's impossible to be 100% certain. I could be wrong. But, I've known him long enough that I don't think I am.) Should be have reached that conclusion, we'd still be right where I expect things to end up. In the "speech" that I've seen, there's no mention of who does and doesn't know about the D beforehand (by rough estimate, there are about half a dozen, give or take, who know, with her parents soon to be brought into the loop). If he asks if I knew, I'll be honest. If he asks why I didn't tell him it was coming, I'll be honest (it wasn't my place to say).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> (it wasn't my place to say).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It is logical Mr Spock


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> Maybe so. But, I sincerely think that, even if I didn't know about the D or the A, he would conclude that I did know. (Of course, we don't live in the alternate universe where I don't know, so it's impossible to be 100% certain. I could be wrong. But, I've known him long enough that I don't think I am.) Should be have reached that conclusion, we'd still be right where I expect things to end up. In the "speech" that I've seen, there's no mention of who does and doesn't know about the D beforehand (by rough estimate, there are about half a dozen, give or take, who know, with her parents soon to be brought into the loop). If he asks if I knew, I'll be honest. If he asks why I didn't tell him it was coming, I'll be honest (it wasn't my place to say).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see your point, but if she was worth anything as a friend, if you didn't know she should be a good enough friend to not let you take that wrap and stand up for you about you not knowing and she shouldn't have placed you into that situation in the first place. 

Don't know if I agree on the "not my place stance". What you are essentially telling him is that you have a responsibility to her that you don't have to him (so his friendship really means nothing). When you chose to remain her friend and support her during this, while hiding her secrets, then you have betrayed him as bad as she has. Did she tell your W the same things, because you have admitted that you discussed it with your W. Why is it your place to tel your W all, while her H has no claim to the same information (I mean it is his life after all that is being messed with)?

At the least, it should be your place to inform him that she is cheating on him. She is lying to him, so what makes you think she is telling you the entire truth. By her screwing around she is putting your friends life at risk for STD possibly. Don't you feel you owe him the right to know what she is doing to protect his health if nothing else. I mean, she wants one more "normal" Xmas, and around my house a normal holiday was usually the only time that Sex occurred, so she may be doing that "nicety" for him to maintain the sense of usualness and putting his health at risk in the process. Would you feel it not your place to inform him if she said she was going to kill him or have him beaten up (yes extreme example but fair none the less)?

You could have told her that you didn't agree with it and distanced yourself from her (and him) until she came clean. It is very easy to be busy or have other plans when things happen. Instead you chose her, so are you going to be the stand up guy and tell him you value her friendship more than his as well??

Seems like your morality is in check here and you are finding all the excuses to sweep it under the rug rather than face it and stand up for your values. Nothing like saying I hate and despise something and then continue to support it and suppress the morals you supposedly stand by. My wife told several she was in D process and they all hid it. # years later after 2 years of As with several men and me finding out eventually, I then filed and started the D. Words are just that until the actions back them up!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> It is logical Mr Spock


It's not. There are many valid arguments for telling him about the A. Aand I've agreed that my choice not to - whatever the reasons - is on me.

That's wholly distinct from telling him about this e D. There's only one person whose place it is to tell him about that. Just as I wouldn't expect Mary or any of the other small handful of people who know I intend to D to tell my wife. In fact, within the past two weeks, I learned that one of those people was aware that, some 9 years ago, my wife was contemplating leaving. And I don't hold that silence against the person who knew.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> I see your point, but if she was worth anything as a friend, if you didn't know she should be a good enough friend to not let you take that wrap and stand up for you about you not knowing and she shouldn't have placed you into that situation in the first place.
> 
> Don't know if I agree on the "not my place stance". What you are essentially telling him is that you have a responsibility to her that you don't have to him (so his friendship really means nothing). When you chose to remain her friend and support her during this, while hiding her secrets, then you have betrayed him as bad as she has. Did she tell your W the same things, because you have admitted that you discussed it with your W. Why is it your place to tel your W all, while her H has no claim to the same information (I mean it is his life after all that is being messed with)?
> 
> ...


I honestly get where you're coming from, and respect that perspective.

As mentioned in my last reply, I think that, when it comes to *any* D, there's really only one person whose place it is to tell the other spouse about it. As you say, the decision to D could change (although I genuinely don't think it will...if it does, I know I'll have some reevaluating to do).

Why'd I tell my W and not her H? Simply put, she could tell something was eating at me, and saying it out loud (as opposed to "silently" like here) was a good release. As we talked about it, with her providing the perspective of someone who's been there, deep inside the fog, it's been a good resource to try to throw the light of reality on what's going on. Hasn't done any good, but the feedback goes a long way towards reassurance that I'm not just being the overprotective "big brother."

And, yeah...I'm stuck between what my gut would normally be telling me to do and the value that I place on my word. (For the record, as the four of us have provided this sort of confidant function for one another over the years, it's always been assumed that, for example, I could tell my W about the information I've gotten, and it would likewise remain confidential.) Sure would be great if I could just put myself back into the barely-tolerated daze that I was sleepwalking through life in just six months ago. Instead, I've got concerns about too many people - myself included - all running through my mind and coming to a head at once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> It's not. There are many valid arguments for telling him about the A. Aand I've agreed that my choice not to - whatever the reasons - is on me.
> 
> That's wholly distinct from telling him about this e D. There's only one person whose place it is to tell him about that. Just as I wouldn't expect Mary or any of the other small handful of people who know I intend to D to tell my wife. In fact, within the past two weeks, I learned that one of those people was aware that, some 9 years ago, my wife was contemplating leaving. And I don't hold that silence against the person who knew.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All I'm talking about on MY posts is the fact that you will not disclose the Affair not the D

I'm sorry to post this but its the only way to answer
* "This is for [W]'s husband. This is [HWSNBN]'s soon-to-be ex wife. I just thought you'd like to know that they've been meeting and screwing around behind your back since before the two of you got married.*
Looking back did she do the right thing ?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Nope. Not a good one at all. And that's a subject that's come up. She hopes that he and I can be friends, and that I can give him a chance because "he really is a great guy." I've told her fat chance on the first...I won't be openly hostile to him, but don't see us being friends...and as for the second, he's got a helluva lot of work to do to prove that he's not the creep I see him as. He's gotta pass all the "big brother" tests multiple times, and maybe - just maybe - on their 80th anniversary together, I'll shake his hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A nice guy that is sleeping with another man's wife. Define nice guy. A nice guy that will allow his friend to be made a fool of and cheated on as he stands by watching. Define nice guy. As I see it, you and Slick have more in common than you realize. Maybe he will need proof from you and won't want to shake your hand on his 80th anniversary. 

Forget all this who knew what when and I like her better than him. Can you for a moment look at this from a perspective of right and wrong. Is not your friend behaving in a manner that you would ordinarily find reprehensible? How can you rationalize that your character is not being impugned by being complicit in this? And your right, your decision is all on you.

If you have no hopes of being with this woman at some point in the future then why would you compromise your values for her friendship. She is doing wrong, Slick is doing wrong, you are doing wrong, how many wrongs will it take to make a right?

Mary is getting her Christmas gift early this year and her H is getting the exact same thing only he doesn't know it yet and as a bonus he may also get a special gift wrapped in an STD box. If that is your idea of friendship, I will pass on having friends. There are enough people I cannot trust in the world already.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> As mentioned in my last reply, I think that, when it comes to *any* D, there's really only one person whose place it is to tell the other spouse about it. As you say, the decision to D could change (although I genuinely don't think it will...if it does, I know I'll have some reevaluating to do).
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So have you advised her to tell him about the D and give him the papers directly? Or are you allowing her to take the cowards way out and just have him served? Seems that with having him served that is someone else other than the "one" entitled person telling the unsuspecting about the D, and this is quite common and recommended here by many as a leg up/ power position. What is you stance on this, because if you feel that having him served is acceptable then you are in practice behaving counter to your moral stance you are maintaining??


Not trying to come off as badgering here, just trying to understand your "morality" in the situation which seems to change as the dynamic of the situation changes. There seems to be no steadfast boundaries for yourself that you are defending (I mean do you see the hypocrisy when you claim it is not your place to "tell anyone about or discuss the D", but then you feel it fine to do so with your W?)


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> All I'm talking about on MY posts is the fact that you will not disclose the Affair not the D
> 
> I'm sorry to post this but its the only way to answer
> * "This is for [W]'s husband. This is [HWSNBN]'s soon-to-be ex wife. I just thought you'd like to know that they've been meeting and screwing around behind your back since before the two of you got married.*
> Looking back did she do the right thing ?


And, I've said a few times now that I accept the responsibility for my choice not to expose it. I own that. Whether I continue to lose sleep over that after everything else on my mind is over and done, that's on me. No dodging it, I've said why I've made that decision, for better or for worse, good or ill, right or wrong. I don't see a point in giving him a straw man to blame the D on, when it comes down to a matter of incompatibility.

I've only ever said (or at least meant to say) that it's not my place to reveal her intention to D.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> I don't see a point in giving him a straw man to blame the D on, when it comes down to a matter of incompatibility.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but sounds like a cop out. If it were truly incompatibility they wouldn't have made it this long. It is her urges driving this. Otherwise she wouldn't be acting contradictory to everything she has stood for to this point (by your admission of her changes). I would say step away and stop enabling her, but I know that isn't going to happen, so I wish you the best and hope this doesn't burn you too badly in the future, as a jilted and betrayed H can do strange and viscous things and you have put yourself right there in the catbird seat to be exposed to it all (and done so by your choice).

Goo luck.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> So have you advised her to tell him about the D and give him the papers directly? Or are you allowing her to take the cowards way out and just have him served? Seems that with having him served that is someone else other than the "one" entitled person telling the unsuspecting about the D, and this is quite common and recommended here by many as a leg up/ power position. What is you stance on this, because if you feel that having him served is acceptable then you are in practice behaving counter to your moral stance you are maintaining??
> 
> 
> Not trying to come off as badgering here, just trying to understand your "morality" in the situation which seems to change as the dynamic of the situation changes. There seems to be no steadfast boundaries for yourself that you are defending (I mean do you see the hypocrisy when you claim it is not your place to "tell anyone about or discuss the D", but then you feel it fine to do so with your W?)


My understanding of what she's done and plans to do---

--She's consulted a lawyer on how to proceed as far as custody, child support, her hope to keep the house, etc.
--She'll be seeking assistance from her parents for the attorney fees.
--On their overnight trip at the end of the month, she will tell him that she's seeking D, that she's consulted the attorney, and her desired outcome (such as primary custody of the kids and staying in the house).
--He had originally planned to give him the papers herself at the time of that conversation, but since they don't exist yet, will give them to him personally when they are prepared.

For the record, I didn't run to my wife and say, "She's going to D him." After we all went to dinner one night, she asked me, "They're worse than they let on, aren't they? It's coming soon, isn't it?" and I confirmed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> My understanding of what she's done and plans to do---
> 
> --She's consulted a lawyer on how to proceed as far as custody, child support, her hope to keep the house, etc.
> --She'll be seeking assistance from her parents for the attorney fees.
> ...


So she has no lawyer currently and nothing further in the works until she can secure funds, which she is hoping her parents will assists with. Yet she is living as a single person and you are supporting her in her decisions and actions to do so (even though you are telling her it is wrong and you don't agree, by remaining her friend in the situation you re supporting her decisions). You are keeping this from her H and saying if it doesn't happen then you need to rethink your relationship with her and the H.

You mentioned that about 9 years ago your W did the same exact thing with the D as she has done so far, and here you are still married today with no D papers ever drawn. See how this is not set in stone and you are enabling and treating her as if it was already a done deal???

I don't mean to insult, but I hope that I never end up with friends like you in the future, as there is nothing worse than someone that has your back when things are good and knife's it when the SHTF and/or turns bad on them. If you are not willing to tell the friend/H, then at least be decent to him and end that friendship completely as you obviously value her company and friendship more than his.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> Sorry but sounds like a cop out. If it were truly incompatibility they wouldn't have made it this long. It is her urges driving this. Otherwise she wouldn't be acting contradictory to everything she has stood for to this point (by your admission of her changes). I would say step away and stop enabling her, but I know that isn't going to happen, so I wish you the best and hope this doesn't burn you too badly in the future, as a jilted and betrayed H can do strange and viscous things and you have put yourself right there in the catbird seat to be exposed to it all (and done so by your choice).
> 
> Goo luck.


That's fair, and thanks.

There has definitely been a 180 in behavior, and the friend in me just can't help but try to snap her out of it, as I'd hope someone would try to do to me if I suddenly started behaving so drastically out of character.

I buy that it's ultimately incompatibility, just reaching a point that it can't be tolerated any longer. (Earlier in the year, the intent was to stay until the kids were grown, which would have meant another 15 years. I don't blame _anyone_ for pondering that number and saying, "No...I can't do that." After all, I can't take another 5, if I were going to try that. I won't begrudge anyone deciding they can't do three times that.) But I also agree that the way she's handling it is all about her wants.

And, yeah...I've gotten into the middle of a mess, with the best of intentions of simply providing an ear to a friend. At times, it's even had me reconsidering my own D, not because of some newfound supply of hope that we can turn things around for good, but because continuing to be silently miserable in the comfort of a 14+ year routine just seems easier than the alternative of doing what's best for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

Grayson:

I understand where you're coming from in not telling her H.

Between friends, business associates, and even family, I could probably help to destroy at least 50 marriages with what I know.

I won't do it. If people want to blow up their marriage, that's on them. I won't light the fuse.

And btw, I was a BS.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> So she has no lawyer currently and nothing further in the works until she can secure funds, which she is hoping her parents will assists with. Yet she is living as a single person and you are supporting her in her decisions and actions to do so (even though you are telling her it is wrong and you don't agree, by remaining her friend in the situation you re supporting her decisions). You are keeping this from her H and saying if it doesn't happen then you need to rethink your relationship with her and the H.
> 
> You mentioned that about 9 years ago your W did the same exact thing with the D as she has done so far, and here you are still married today with no D papers ever drawn. See how this is not set in stone and you are enabling and treating her as if it was already a done deal???


I do (and consistently have) understood this concept. I am drawing conclusions based upon knowing the personalities involved. You disagree with those conclusions. It happens.



> I don't mean to insult, but I hope that I never end up with friends like you in the future, as there is nothing worse than someone that has your back when things are good and knife's it when the SHTF and/or turns bad on them. If you are not willing to tell the friend/H, then at least be decent to him and end that friendship completely as you obviously value her company and friendship more than his.


Sorry you feel that way.

If it's any consolation, I can't sleep without medication, given this situation and the others swirling in my head all converging for the absolute worst year (let alone holiday season) I've experienced, and I also find myself wishing I could remotely stand the taste of alcohol so as to drink myself into a stupor til it's all over. I, too, am acting very atypical for myself, and wish it would all just go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> If it's any consolation, I can't sleep without medication, given this situation and the others swirling in my head all converging for the absolute worst year (let alone holiday season) I've experienced, and I also find myself wishing I could remotely stand the taste of alcohol so as to drink myself into a stupor til it's all over. I, too, am acting very atypical for myself, and wish it would all just go away.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is the season and situation. Lots of us are experiencing this exact same thing, so I feel your pain and know what you are going through. I do like the taste of alcohol and believe me it is not a help, as I work from home and many a day it takes all my will power not to start the drinking at the wee hours of the morning just to give myself some reprieve. It is the first real holidays without my kids and limited availability to them, as well as I hate taking meds and therefor suffer with bouts of insomnia, sometimes seeing as little as a total of 14-20 hours of sleep over the course of a week (got 12 last week). Good luck to you and it is no consolation as I wish this ill will on no one (and not trying to make you feel like a bad person, just I don't agree with your motive and morals at this point, as these seem to be the only thing that I have left going for me).


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Christmas is 3 weeks away. Her telling him she wants a divorce is 4 weeks away. To me this is a material factor in the morality question of telling Mary's H she is cheating.

Another part of the morality question is whether to keep having conversations with Mary. On one hand you can provide her with good information and good advice. However, most of that good advice would apply to someone who isn't planning on divorcing her husband imminently. Normally you'd be advising her to stop the affair, tell her husband, and seek MC. In this case there is still some good advice to offer, but you've already done that.

Which means in a way you are enabling her to continue the affair by you continuing to have contact with her and not informing her H.

I think one position which is morally defensible is to tell her you will no longer remain her confidant as long as she is in this affair and married. If she does not file for D, it then becomes morally right to inform her H.

Does she promise not to have sex with her H before telling him of the D? This would resolve the health risk aspect.

I think you need to distance yourself from her until the D is announced. Also, if H asks you directly about her having an affair, I would give him fully honest answers.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> It is the season and situation. Lots of us are experiencing this exact same thing, so I feel your pain and know what you are going through. I do like the taste of alcohol and believe me it is not a help, as I work from home and many a day it takes all my will power not to start the drinking at the wee hours of the morning just to give myself some reprieve. It is the first real holidays without my kids and limited availability to them, as well as I hate taking meds and therefor suffer with bouts of insomnia, sometimes seeing as little as a total of 14-20 hours of sleep over the course of a week (got 12 last week). Good luck to you and it is no consolation as I wish this ill will on no one (and not trying to make you feel like a bad person, just I don't agree with your motive and morals at this point, as these seem to be the only thing that I have left going for me).


Thanks. I've discovered yesterday that the ZzzQuil I've been taking has long since reached the saturation point in my system, and is now about as effective as a placebo. So, I'm trying to go through the weekend without it, then go to taking it every other day starting Sunday so I'm not doing three consecutive days, which is apparently the magic number for reaching saturation. Had an appointment this past Monday to see a counselor about everything...get it all out. Given that relationships are the biggest issues on my mind, tried to set one with the counselor my W and I saw that led to our successful (if finite) R...but she'd retured. They gave me an appointment with another, I showed up early as requested...to find that one had left the practice since I set my appointment, and I'd never been notified. None of their available slots with any staff that take my insurance work for me, so it's back to square one, hoping I can find someone where I can get an appointment that will actually be, y'know, before I take any action myself.

As the song says, it's the most wonderful time of the year... :-/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Thor said:


> Christmas is 3 weeks away. Her telling him she wants a divorce is 4 weeks away. To me this is a material factor in the morality question of telling Mary's H she is cheating.
> 
> Another part of the morality question is whether to keep having conversations with Mary. On one hand you can provide her with good information and good advice. However, most of that good advice would apply to someone who isn't planning on divorcing her husband imminently. Normally you'd be advising her to stop the affair, tell her husband, and seek MC. In this case there is still some good advice to offer, but you've already done that.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Thor. Definitely some stuff to consider here.

There is a bit of a limit on how much I can distance myself - especially this time of year - without it being something blatantly obvious, as its not uncommon for our families to get together often. Knowing the D is coming (just to clarify...Christmas is three weeks away, which puts her telling him about the D at three weeks and two days away.), my W has taken it upon herself to go a little above and beyond for their kids this year (a sentiment I share), since it's going to be tough for them (and, yes, I'm trying to make it a good holiday and birthday for ours this year, for the same reason).

But, I appreciate all you've said. Thanks again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

It seems Mary has wrapped herself up in an exit affair, has plans to blindside him with the divorce (meanwhile he's suffering through a miserable holiday season with an estranged wife that he may still be vested with in marriage) and then when he is gutted to the core by her betrayal she will take full advantage of his grief and disorientation to gain a dominant legal position too.

What she is doing is incredibly cruel and amoral, and you are fully supporting it even though you feel at least a tinge of revulsion.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Don't get this thread. Seems more like a wind up than anything else. What exactly is Grayson asking the good people of TAM for?
She's banging this dude, there is nothing he can do? It's her life right?
It's not a question of sides or doing the right thing, that has been made clear. They've known about the divorce for a while and know they know about the affair..telling the husband's not an issue, it's an issue about this woman's well being right?

All he can do is be a good friend and let her live her life.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Nope. Not a good one at all. And that's a subject that's come up. She hopes that he and I can be friends, and that I can give him a chance because "he really is a great guy." I've told her fat chance on the first...I won't be openly hostile to him, but don't see us being friends...and as for the second, he's got a helluva lot of work to do to prove that he's not the creep I see him as. He's gotta pass all the "big brother" tests multiple times, and maybe - just maybe - on their 80th anniversary together, I'll shake his hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your friend is the worse one of the two. Way much worse. 

That guy is non entity. He is having sex with a woman who told him told him that she is ending her marriage.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Thanks. I've discovered yesterday that the ZzzQuil I've been taking has long since reached the saturation point in my system, and is now about as effective as a placebo. So, I'm trying to go through the weekend without it, then go to taking it every other day starting Sunday so I'm not doing three consecutive days, which is apparently the magic number for reaching saturation. Had an appointment this past Monday to see a counselor about everything...get it all out. Given that relationships are the biggest issues on my mind, tried to set one with the counselor my W and I saw that led to our successful (if finite) R...but she'd retured. They gave me an appointment with another, I showed up early as requested...to find that one had left the practice since I set my appointment, and I'd never been notified. None of their available slots with any staff that take my insurance work for me, so it's back to square one, hoping I can find someone where I can get an appointment that will actually be, y'know, before I take any action myself.
> 
> As the song says, it's the most wonderful time of the year... :-/
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



try Nyquil.......different stuff than what you have been using. Your stuff never worked for me at all...


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Quite likely. I've made my peace with that, for better or for worse, even before Slick came along. I figured I'd end up on his "S" list for "taking her side" and not giving him a heads-up about the D. One way or another, one of the friendships was going to be sacrificed on the altar of their D. At the end of the day, I'm better friends with her than I am with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe reconsider your priorities for a bit ? What is this woman bringing to the table ?

That man, for all his faults is not an abuser. The bitterness in his voice, you can almost see why that is the case. You mentioned that she only married him because she was scared she would be alone. Do you realize how unfair this is to that guy ? She destroyed his chance for a happy married life and stole many years of his life, just because she thought she wouldn't find anyone better and scared to be alone. Now she thinks she can do better than him. So she does it in the most hurtful way possible. You can almost sense how he turned out this way with his passive aggressiveness. 



> Right before the current round of trouble between them, he pushed for her to get off of birth control to see if it would increase her sex drive (which it did), and was reminded by her that their previous periods of trouble and fighting were also when she was off of BC and her hormones weren't regulated by it


Obvious that there is no intimacy from her to him.

*I am even not sure if this is the first guy she cheated with or the first guy she was comfortable to tell you about(Since she told you the "Divorce" plan).
*
You have personal experience of having faced infidelity from your SO. I am not even sure how you could keep on the friendship after seeing what she is doing. 


Ever heard the quote about "Good men doing nothing" ?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Sorry you feel that way.
> 
> If it's any consolation, I can't sleep without medication, given this situation and the others swirling in my head all converging for the absolute worst year (let alone holiday season) I've experienced, and I also find myself wishing I could remotely stand the taste of alcohol so as to drink myself into a stupor til it's all over. I, too, am acting very atypical for myself, and wish it would all just go away.


Psst: That's called your conscience.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> Maybe reconsider your priorities for a bit ? What is this woman bringing to the table ?
> 
> That man, for all his faults is not an abuser. The bitterness in his voice, you can almost see why that is the case. You mentioned that she only married him because she was scared she would be alone. Do you realize how unfair this is to that guy ? She destroyed his chance for a happy married life and stole many years of his life, just because she thought she wouldn't find anyone better and scared to be alone. Now she thinks she can do better than him. So she does it in the most hurtful way possible. You can almost sense how he turned out this way with his passive aggressiveness.
> 
> ...


There's another. A friend of theirs who spent a good 9 years trying to get into her pants. (Before anyone leaps to the conclusion...no, it's not me.) Her H gave her a "hall pass" to be with someone else one time, and she cashed it in with him. Her review: "Not that great." (Yes, I know for a fact that she received the "hall pass," because her H told me he'd granted it, himself. Not a case of her saying, "He said it was OK." and taking it on faith.)



> You have personal experience of having faced infidelity from your SO. I am not even sure how you could keep on the friendship after seeing what she is doing.


Sometimes, I wonder. But, so it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

turnera said:


> Psst: That's called your conscience.


Psst: My conscience has nothing to do with the half dozen or so other issues that prevent me from sleeping. Eliminate this one, and I'm still not getting solid rest. Wasn't getting any sleep even before this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

Sir,
You have quite a friend there, do not give her up easily. She married a man out of fear of never again being asked, she had children with this man she did not love while accepting his support and security, she slept with another man on a "hall pass" from her husband disregarding the pain and anguish he surely felt. And now she has slept with another man without a "hall pass". And finally she sees that she can bed more men than she originally thought so she is dumping husband for the new man who has herpes and has been declared "the one" after knowing him for just a few days. Hall pass...hall pass... where do I know that from...Oh I remember, that was from grade school, now this all makes sense.

I fully understand why there is such a lack of morality here. No one here has grown up. So for me to try to appeal to something that does not exist is an act of utter futility. So, with that said, I will wish you the best of luck and move on myself.


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## imjustwatching (Jul 8, 2014)

We need more friends like you in this universe 
You could just leave him an anonymous notes ? no?


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

imjustwatching said:


> We need more friends like you in this universe
> You could just leave him an anonymous notes ? no?


Anything...even try telepathy, at least you could try some thing :banghead:[


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

imjustwatching said:


> We need more friends like you in this universe
> You could just leave him an anonymous notes ? no?


Considered it. Three people (apart, of course, from Mary and Slick) "officially" know about it. The coworker who set them up is unlikely to squeal. Neither is another coworker who's encouraging it. I'm the only one who has had anything negative to say about it. Wouldn't be terribly anonymous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Those are the only people that she is aware of knowing about it. There are lots more I bet? His friends that may or may not approve along with the other girls he is dating, friends and spouses of the co-workers supporting it and the list goes on.

Heck your own W knows and you have somehow overlooked including her in that list (making 4 that you are aware of), so do you see how it can easily grow in size? And you may not be privy to whom else she has told. Nothing like being the last to know. Don't make him that person. Let him keep his pride and do the right thing and tell him.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Look, do the right thing and tell the husband already! He deserves to know. His wife is doing something wrong and bad. Don't be her friend. Be his at this stage.

Don't spend anymore time thinking about it - just do it! You will feel better for it and you will be doing the right thing!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Considered it. Three people (apart, of course, from Mary and Slick) "officially" know about it. The coworker who set them up is unlikely to squeal. Neither is another coworker who's encouraging it. I'm the only one who has had anything negative to say about it. Wouldn't be terribly anonymous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People with integrity don't want to be anonymous. They just want to do the right thing. Aftermath isn't what they worry about; helping someone is.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Grayson, say it isn't so! You were the guy who had the OM fired! And now I read this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not trying to criticize you, I'm sorry if it sounds that way. You'll have to make your own decisions in a situation like this. I'm just making an argument in general for whoever's reading, and wondering if they should tell. I know it's human nature to not get involved, but I'd hope that if someone knew MY husband was cheating, they'd let me know. I don't want to be the one everyone's talking about, or worse, laughing about.


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## stevend1961 (Feb 5, 2011)

Grayson 
get away from this as soon as possible, these two need to grow up and handle their own mess. If this woman"mary" is going out on dates before they are divorced, its not going to end on a good note. 
If she wants advice she should be seeking it from a counselor who specializes in famly matters, marital matters. 
If she does this and the husband does not want out, and they reconcile, she will tell him and then you might get into trouble. 
When two people cannot get along they need to dettle their issues with them selves , by them selves. It is no place especially for a member of the opposite sex to be involved in no matter how long you have known them. And if they want to do a session with you present, make sure your wife is present as well, irregardless of whom you are with.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree with steve in that, if you're not going to tell the husband, at least stop spending time with the wife. Nothing good is going to come of that.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Been a busy couple of weeks. Just to update...



lordmayhem said:


> Grayson, say it isn't so! You were the guy who had the OM fired! And now I read this.


I know it sounds totally counter to me, lordmayhem. I think the same things sometimes.



turnera said:


> I agree with steve in that, if you're not going to tell the husband, at least stop spending time with the wife. Nothing good is going to come of that.


Only time I've spent with her since that first blind date has been with both families around, with the exception of Thanksgiving. Her husband was sick, so didn't join her and the kids over at our place.

Last week, her husband bent my ear for about 40 minutes, saying he's not sure what's going on with her, that he's increasingly annoyed by her more frequent "dinners with friends from work" (aka, meet-ups/booty calls with Slick). And, from what he was saying, as expected, "if she does leave," he doesn't plan to just roll over and agree to her idealized version of the outcome. He also doesn't really want to go on their overnight trip when she plans to tell him, because his "expectations for the trip almost certainly aren't going to be met." (In other words, her distance from him has clearly indicated that he won't get lucky that night.) Meanwhile, she's gotten increasingly...testy...(there's a good, forum-friendly word for it) about my objections to the affair.

All of that led to a proverbial lightbulb moment last Thursday. I was thinking back on all of the things Mary has told me, and all of the behavior she's exhibited. I remembered her telling me that her mother is bipolar. Then, thinking of my wife...who's bipolar and (obviously) has a history of cheating, it all fell into place. Discussed it with my wife, and we've both come to the conclusion that Mary is bipolar, and is currently in a very high manic phase. My wife has said that Mary's behavior is exactly like her own when she wouldn't be on meds and would be in a mania, up to and including the hyper-sexualization, which is a symptom of a mania. My wife's prediction is that Mary will ride the mania until the divorce doesn't go the way she plans, at which point she'll crash into a depression; at that point, having only ever known wild, "let's-have-crazy-monkey-sex" manic Mary (whose mania he's been feeding), Slick will bail on depressive Mary.

Rough days ahead for them.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> Rough days ahead for them.


yes poor poor Mary:scratchhead:

Lets hope the guy doesn't get an STD over next few weeks...give me his email ill do it I'm in U.K. if you haven't the compassion


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Did you encourage him to do some snooping?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Thor said:


> Did you encourage him to do some snooping?


For better or for worse, he told me that he knew he was putting me right in the middle by coming to me, since I know her side of things, but he thought I might see some commonalities between my current situation at home and theirs, then also said that he didn't want me to tell him anything that had been told to me in confidence.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

I really could not just sit there and say nothing, knowing that I had the answer to his confusion and frustration. He deserves to know sooner than later.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> For better or for worse, he told me that he knew he was putting me right in the middle by coming to me, since I know her side of things, but he thought I might see some commonalities between my current situation at home and theirs, *then also said that he didn't want me to tell him anything that had been told to me in confidence*.


Oh well there you go ...you know his wife is fvvving another guy called err 'slick' and he could get an STD but he gave you a pass as he was a decent guy and apologised putting you in the middle........no chance of that eh

At least there's one guy with decent intentions


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

oneMOreguy said:


> I really could not just sit there and say nothing, knowing that I had the answer to his confusion and frustration. He deserves to know sooner than later.


I can help but agree. Nothing like pouring your heart out to a "so called" friend while the entire time you are the butt of their cruel joke. You might not think you are making light of his situation., but when you know something and choose his wife and her actions/ secrets over him, yet continue to treat and act like he is a true friend you are essentially thumbing your nose at hime and making him the butt of the joke and he will forever feel this way when he finds out about everything and that you knew the entire time (especially when he poured his heart out to you and you did nothing).

With friends like that who needs enemies!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> Oh well there you go ...you know his wife is fvvving another guy called err 'slick' and he could get an STD but he gave you a pass as he was a decent guy and apologised putting you in the middle........no chance of that eh
> 
> At least there's one guy with decent intentions


Unless STD's have gone airborne, her husband is at no risk. That's one of his complaints, and why he doesn't want to go on their trip anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Grayson said:


> Unless STD's have gone airborne, her husband is at no risk. That's one of his complaints, and why he doesn't want to go on their trip anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


oh no sex since she has been playing house with Mr Slick then and no kissing her either...oh he did tell you he hasn't even kissed her?

oh and You can also be infected with trichomoniasis through contact with damp or moist objects such as towels, wet clothing, or toilet seats,

You can get hepatitis B by sharing personal items, such as toothbrushes or razors, with someone who has it.

But you know he doesn't use any of those don't you


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> I can help but agree. Nothing like pouring your heart out to a "so called" friend while the entire time you are the butt of their cruel joke. You might not think you are making light of his situation., but when you know something and choose his wife and her actions/ secrets over him, yet continue to treat and act like he is a true friend you are essentially thumbing your nose at hime and making him the butt of the joke and he will forever feel this way when he finds out about everything and that you knew the entire time (especially when he poured his heart out to you and you did nothing).
> 
> With friends like that who needs enemies!


No, I don't see him as the butt of a joke. Not in the least. I see him as someone whose marriage has been fully and finally dead for about four months, but he doesn't recognize it. I also see him as someone who - under the circumstances and given his wife's behavior, whether he knows about the affair or not - has the upper hand in the divorce process. Her manic phase has her moving to act, to pull the trigger, before getting her proverbial ducks in a row. Textbook behavior for a mania...acting on impulse without thinking. She's (obviously unintentionally) setting him up to be able to make a strong case for abandonment (affair or no, he's expressed increasing displeasure for her "dinners with friends" which leave him - his exact words - "stuck with the kids"). She's been working from the assumption that, once she calmly and logically explains her reasons for wanting primary custody of the kids and to keep the house, he'll see her logic and agree. I know from talking to him...not happening that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Whether you see him as the butt of the joke is irrelevant. He will feel that way once he realizes he poured his heart out to you and you basically just let him continue on unaware. You werent the friend he thought you were as you just let him vent and then continue to be played for the fool. You had the means to ease his mind but instead chose to remain silent and let him continue to suffer valuing his wife and yourself over him at the time he needed you. This will show him how good of a friend he really was to you and he will feel like the butt of a bad joke for this treatment. 

Even after all of this was written from the point of what he will feel, you chime in about how you feel and think about him. You still don't get that this should be about him at this time and not you. You are being selfish and worrying about nothing more than you. Get over yourself and do Something selfless for a frirnd for once and if he isn't a god enough friend to do this for, then cut him loose and stop pretending to be there for him and support him as you are only making it worse in the end. Trust me having been there I know what he is going through and how it will end for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Grayson, I think the way you are acting/not acting in this scenario is disgusting. He even reached out for help. How you keep rationalizing, I don't know. Maybe the thread title applies to you too.

And you and your wife are "friends" withthe couple huh ?


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Grayson said:


> All of that led to a proverbial lightbulb moment last Thursday. I was thinking back on all of the things Mary has told me, and all of the behavior she's exhibited. I remembered her telling me that her mother is bipolar. Then, thinking of my wife...who's bipolar and (obviously) has a history of cheating, it all fell into place. Discussed it with my wife, and we've both come to the conclusion that Mary is bipolar, and is currently in a very high manic phase. My wife has said that Mary's behavior is exactly like her own when she wouldn't be on meds and would be in a mania, up to and including the hyper-sexualization, which is a symptom of a mania. My wife's prediction is that Mary will ride the mania until the divorce doesn't go the way she plans, at which point she'll crash into a depression; at that point, having only ever known wild, "let's-have-crazy-monkey-sex" manic Mary (whose mania he's been feeding), Slick will bail on depressive Mary.
> 
> Rough days ahead for them.


Slow down Grayson. The euforia of a new love creates an emotional high and the realization when consequences hit creates regret and an emotional low. In other words having an affair is going to look like bipolar behavior whether it is or not. Having a label to blame is bad.

In the end, actions matter. The last thing your friend or anyone cheating needs is some label like bi-polar to blame-shift away how they treat others. A bipolar spouse has to be loyal and faithful too. It's not much to ask for.


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

Grayson! I remember you from such Off-Topic sections as the “Politics and Religion Sub-Forum”!  Good to see you back, although I can’t say I’m happy to see the section in which you’re currently posting. I’m sorry you find yourself having to “Cope w/ Infidelity” and that your marriage has reached its end. And you have my deepest condolences on the loss of your mother. I lost my father to cancer several years ago and I still miss and mourn him every day. You are dealing with so much right now, my friend. Reading all of this has me worried about you; I’m so sorry insomnia has you in its vicious grip and that you are hurting so deeply without any relief in sight. If it helps at all, even a little, you have my concern and well wishes. Godspeed to you. 

I don’t often venture into the Coping w/Infidelity battlefield because it gives me the sads something awful and encourages my misanthropy (which needs no help), but I saw that you had posted here and I’ve always enjoyed your contributions in the P&R section, so I braved the case of the vapors this area always brings me to see how you were faring. 

I don’t usually give my opinion here let alone advice, because I’m seriously borderline retarded when it comes to interpersonal dealings with humans and therefore my input is null. But I find myself unable to keep quiet on your situation. So! On to your distraction drama of “Mistress Mary, quite contrary”, your over-interest in how her garden grows, and her cuckolds all in a row…

I sincerely apologize if what I’m about to write (or have written thus far!) comes off as insulting, judgmental, or cruel. It is not my intention to offend you, but I think you’ve lost perspective in all of this, which is understandable with the burdens you are shouldering. I actually quite like you and all you have described here seems really out of “character” with the “you” I’ve come to know through your posts. I’m concerned about you and all that you are going through, your relationship with “Mary”, and your over-involvement in her personal life. I have married friends and understand that at times each partner may confide in you regarding the other partner. It’s never a “comfortable” position to find oneself and usually leads to awkward redirection back to trying to get them to confide in their partner (or it should, anyway).

Somewhere along the way the redirection has gone astray and your “friendship” with Mary has crossed the line and become overly intimate. I don’t mean you are, unbeknownst to you, somehow fvcking each other; there are many forms of intimacy, not just physical. I don’t think your relationship with her is healthy or appropriate. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh or judgmental. My BFF is a man and I confide pretty much anything and everything in him, but nothing (and I mean nothing) I tell him about my husband is kept secret from him nor is it anything I would not or have not said to my husband’s face. Heck, he knows I post here and all of the less than flattering things I’ve said about him here have been said first to his face. He thinks it’s funny that only my gentle nature and weak hands keep his tree trunk neck safe from wringing and that I’ve wondered if his giant head is just for show. We’re weird (understatement!), but anyway! Back to you and Mary…

You need to step away from this relationship, sooner rather than later, for your own wellbeing. I understand you care about her and that you’re trying to be “a good friend” and confidant, but sometimes that means voicing your disapproval of their self-destructive, self-centered behavior and then withdrawing your support if that behavior continues. You know? You are not doing her (or yourself) any favors by stating your reproval of her choices and then showing approval via continued emotional support. And you are damaging your sense of integrity by supporting a “friend” who is living in direct opposition to your established morals. Does that make sense? I don’t believe this is a healthy relationship for you to continue for myriad reasons, but the most salient is that I think you are compromising who you hold yourself to be by remaining friends with this incarnation of her.

Mary, as described, sounds like a mess and a selfish, cruel, vacuous trollop to boot. You say she is “in a fog” about her affair partner and the reality of their situation…you seem like you are “in a fog” about her and your friendship with her. And whether we like it or not, we are known by the company we keep. Are you absolutely sure you want to continue associating with someone who would premeditate taking all she could from her husband while fvcking some disgusting waste of sperm and egg behind his back? Just because she is waiting to drop the D-bomb on her husband (who as near as I can tell, just sounds clueless and at worst insensitive…hardly deserving of the knife she is silently twisting in his back) until after the holidays doesn’t make her some kind of fvcking Mother Teresa of Wh0redom. It doesn’t matter that she plans to divorce him sometime soon; I plan to be a master cellist…doesn’t mean I will (I won’t  ). Currently, in reality, she is cheating on her husband, she is a heartless adulterer, and she is justifying it by saying she is moments away from divorcing an “incompatible” partner and she has found “the one” so that makes it okay. It doesn’t. Seriously, she can wait weeks to deliver the coup de grâce to her marriage and tear apart her family but she can’t keep her legs closed for the same amount of time? Oh wait, yes she can…as long as it’s her husband that’s at the entrance. Right? I hope for his sake at least that much is true.

I don’t know, man. She’s not really sounding like good bestie material here. What do you get out of your relationship with her? I mean, really, Grayson…what are you hoping to achieve here? Stay BFF’s with a self-involved user? Why? And what are you seeking from TAM at this time with regard to this thread? Validation that “Slick” is a bad guy? Yeah, sure, the best part of him ran down his mom’s ass crack and stained the back alley where he was conceived. What else? You want to know if you can just stand by and let your precious “lil sis” Mary self-destruct? Of course you can. Really what other options are open to you? You going to c0ck block “Slick”…chain up Mary…spackle closed her Grand Canyon? There isn’t enough spackle in this world, my friend. 

What I would suggest you do is let her know you care about her but you will not continue to assist her disgusting destructive behavior and that as long as she continues to sh!t on your advice, concern, and friendship (to say nothing of her marriage and family!) that your support will be withdrawn and your friendship rescinded. Because truthfully, a good friend doesn’t try to prevent an out of control friend from hitting rock bottom…they let them find it without enabling them because oftentimes “hitting rock bottom” is the only way to propel oneself out of hell. You can’t help someone who doesn’t want to help themselves. 

If these were my friends, I would let Mary know that she had X amount of days to come clean to her husband (Christmas be damned) or I would tell him myself (whatever happened to “bros before hoes”???) and that if she had even one iota of decency left in her she would not have sex of any kind with her husband or even kiss him for fear of tainting him with her skank. I would even offer to have a group “sit-down” with her and her husband and my husband since we are all such “best buds” and offer support and a safe environment to discuss all of this sordid sh!t out in the open. Then we could all hug it out and share a Coke afterwards. I think in the end this would be the only way to salvage what little is left of my friend’s “honor” and retain my own self-respect as a friend to them both. 

But I’ll be honest here, I don’t really care what happens to Mary. She sounds horrible and deserves to face the consequences of her capricious, callous actions. I feel sorry for her children and her husband, but that’s about it. The person I DO care about in all of this is you, Grayson. I don’t think it is healthy for you to stay friends with this person, especially given your own wife’s infidelity and what it did to you and your marriage. Is that why you view Mary’s “plight” as your problem to solve? Are you somehow trying to “save” her from herself and turn things around for her before it is too late as you were unable to do with your wife? Is this some kind of repetition compulsion for you? I hope not. You have too many serious issues and tragedies in your own life without having to also carry Mary’s sins and secrets. It’s too much! Focus on yourself, the dissolution of your marriage, your (probable) depression, your grief over the loss of your mother, and getting your child(ren?) through all of this as safely and sanely as possible. 

Again, I’m very sorry if anything I wrote offended, annoyed, or insulted you (and sorry this is so sh!ttin’ long!!!). That was not my intention. (I've written, deleted, re-written this many times!) I’m genuinely concerned for you and hope you take all of this in the spirit it was intended. Whatever you decide to do I hope you know you have people here who care about you and I hope that you find relief from the pain you are suffering through. You are in my thoughts and prayers (even though you don’t share my faith…it can’t hurt, right?  ) Take care of yourself, kind sir. Strength to you.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Cross-posting from Blossom's thread...



Grayson said:


> Not the thread for it, but the D-Bomb in that relationship was dropped Sunday.


Just curious... who dropped it? And to what degree are you willing to allow your friend to spin the narrative against her (presumably) clueless husband?


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

GusPolinski said:


> Cross-posting from Blossom's thread...
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious... who dropped it? And to what degree are you willing to allow your friend to spin the narrative against her (presumably) clueless husband?


Argument Sunday morning, resulting in her dropping it roughly a week before she'd planned.

I guess I have to ask you to clarify in what sense you expect the "narrative to be spun against him," just to be sure I'm not jumping to hasty conclusions.

I spent about half an hour on the phone with him Sunday after it happened, and told him honestly that it has been coming for months, if not years, and that I don't think there's anything either of them can do to pull it back from the brink. I've told _both_ of them to think about what it will all mean for the kids if they think of doing anything stupid or of getting nasty during the process out of spite. I'd previously discussed the bipolar theory with him, and while he saw some merit to it, wasn't inclined to have that discussion without more concrete examples of symptoms. He then discussed it with his mother (yet another bipolar person...sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one in my world who isn't...or maybe I am), who told him she's thought Mary is bipolar for quite some time now.

And, FWIW, our slick little friend is already strengthening his exit strategy. On Friday, Mary met with her lawyer again, paid the retainer, and started paperwork in motion, preparing for when she'd intended to drop the D-Bomb this coming weekend. In what I'm sure is coincidental timing, that same evening her little friend told her that he "wants her to date, but not have sex with anyone else."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

This is exactly how the narrative is being spun against him... You, supposedly the neutral third party, are telling him it's been in the works and he's been too dumb to notice, then when he seeks support from the only remaining person he trusts, his mother, you point out the mom's flaws and invalidate what little he has remaining. His W has attacked him both through her behind the scenes plan to divorce as well as through her adultery and you've been her copilot. And you have the gall to threaten HIM to not be nasty about the divorce?! When he comes to his senses he's going to realize just how dangerous you have been to their marriage. You may have been a good friend and support for her, but you were certainly not a friend to their marriage.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Lon said:


> This is exactly how the narrative is being spun against him... You, supposedly the neutral third party, are telling him it's been in the works and he's been too dumb to notice,


Speaking of spin....

I said no such thing. I neither said nor implied that he was "too dumb to notice." He's well aware that it's an idea that she has considered before. He's well aware that tensions have been steadily increasing between them. I hold her responsible for not telling him they were reaching a tipping point, and him responsible for recognizing those increasing problems and (by his own admission) closing his proverbial eyes and hoping they'd go away.



> then when he seeks support from the only remaining person he trusts, his mother, you point out the mom's flaws and invalidate what little he has remaining.


I don't follow. I pointed out no "flaws" of his mother. I stated here, for clarity of why he discussed the bipolar issue with her, information that _he_ provided _me_ in telling me he discussed it with her, namely that he discussed it with his mother specifically because she, too, is bipolar, and could be in a position to say, "Yes, I recognize the behavior" from her personal experience, who his exactly what happened. I had no idea his mother was bipolar until he told me during our conversation. He told his mother the theory, and she agreed with the theory, stating that she reached that same conclusion years ago. You'll need to help me out, here, and let me know how any of this is "pointing out flaws in his mother."



> His W has attacked him both through her behind the scenes plan to divorce as well as through her adultery and you've been her copilot. And you have the gall to threaten HIM to not be nasty about the divorce?!


No threats. To either of them. Just a reminder _to both_ to not be stupid (which she's already been) and to consider the consequences for all involved if they choose to get nasty on the legal front...to not act out of spite.



> When he comes to his senses he's going to realize just how dangerous you have been to their marriage. You may have been a good friend and support for her, but you were certainly not a friend to their marriage.


Not as good as I could have been, I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

So now that he know about the D. Does he know about the infidelity that has taken place, or have you "conveniently" overlooked that fact when talking to him?? As the impression you give from your statements (or lack of regarding this issue) is that they argued and she said she was divorcing and that is that. Nothing being mentioned about the cheating and lying that has been going on??


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Can I really just stand by while someone self destructs?*



Squeakr said:


> So now that he know about the D. Does he know about the infidelity that has taken place, or have you "conveniently" overlooked that fact when talking to him?? As the impression you give from your statements (or lack of regarding this issue) is that they argued and she said she was divorcing and that is that. Nothing being mentioned about the cheating and lying that has been going on??


I guess she still needs some ammo to blindside him with, so I presume she hasn't let that slip yet.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Just realized the threads title

*Can I really just stand by while someone self destructs?*

Guess we all know the answer now


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> So now that he know about the D. Does he know about the infidelity that has taken place, or have you "conveniently" overlooked that fact when talking to him?? As the impression you give from your statements (or lack of regarding this issue) is that they argued and she said she was divorcing and that is that. Nothing being mentioned about the cheating and lying that has been going on??


I answered the questions that were asked of me honestly, and offered general advice to both of them without betraying anything told to me in confidence by the other, for good or for ill.

While I don't know the details of the fight that took place, I don't believe it did come up during. I merely received a text from her that "The s--- hit the fan, and I told him I want the divorce." followed about 30 seconds later by his phone call. I asked no questions of either of them as to the nature of the fight, any points that were brought up, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

G.J. said:


> Just realized the threads title
> 
> *Can I really just stand by while someone self destructs?*
> 
> Guess we all know the answer now


Yep. Even myself. *ka-boom*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Grayson said:


> I answered the questions that were asked of me honestly, and offered general advice to both of them without betraying anything told to me in confidence by the other, for good or for ill.
> 
> While I don't know the details of the fight that took place, I don't believe it did come up during. I merely received a text from her that "The s--- hit the fan, and I told him I want the divorce." followed about 30 seconds later by his phone call. I asked no questions of either of them as to the nature of the fight, any points that were brought up, etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So let me get this straight. You didn't tell him about the infidelity, but let that little nugget be out there as a carrot???

Just trying to gauge how this is playing out. I think it is only fair that he have the full information and not be strung along.

How would you feel if he starts going to your wife for information and she tells him the truth? Will you feel betrayed and abandoned by her for selling out your information, as it seems that you have way to close of a relationship with her than you should at this point?? Just my $0.02!


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Squeakr said:


> So let me get this straight. You didn't tell him about the infidelity, but let that little nugget be out there as a carrot???
> 
> Just trying to gauge how this is playing out. I think it is only fair that he have the full information and not be strung along.
> 
> How would you feel if he starts going to your wife for information and she tells him the truth? Will you feel betrayed and abandoned by her for selling out your information, as it seems that you have way to close of a relationship with her than you should at this point?? Just my $0.02!


On the Money.


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## J3st3r (Aug 19, 2014)

I don't see how you ever called yourself his friend, friends do not treat each other this way. Do him one last favor and stop talking to him and acting like you care, regardless of what you say your actions speak otherwise.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Grayson said:


> Yep. Even myself. *ka-boom*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And so you find yourself continuing to disengage from your wife, providing false counsel to BFF's husband and giggling about Slick wanting BFF to date other people.

The interesting thing is that you still think it's your BFF who's self destructing.


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## J3st3r (Aug 19, 2014)

NotLikeYou said:


> And so you find yourself continuing to disengage from your wife, providing false counsel to BFF's husband and giggling about Slick wanting BFF to date other people.
> 
> The interesting thing is that you still think it's your BFF who's self destructing.


Exactly.

I wonder why he posted this thread? He didn't need advice because his mind was made up already, so whats to gain from this thread other than exposing his morals?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It seems to me that it's possible to give oneself a moral out by playing the 'told to me in confidence' card.

It's my opinion that, if you couldn't be honest with your friend about the most personal aspects of HIS life that you have been privy to, then he should not consider you much of a friend. And he won't, when he finds out what you know and how you have kept it from him.

Your best strategy, I think, was either to be honest with both friends or to butt out.

Sadly, it is too late to right the wrong you have done your friend. Perhaps if you start to butt out now you can at least no longer be actively lying to his face.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

What was I hoping to get out of this thread? I don't fully know, myself. A little bit of everything? A little bit of nothing? A magic outside perspective that would allow me to simultaneously honor my word and still follow my instincts, when (in this case) those two things are/were diametrically opposed? Just the ability to vent the situation to those not anywhere near it? Like I say, I'm not even sure, myself.

What started as lending an ear to a best friend has taken twists and turns that have tested me in ways in which there's no true "right" answer (honoring my word means ignoring my conscience, listening to my conscience means breaking my word...something that I don't do lightly). I stand by my decisions and their consequences, based on my knowledge of the situation and the people involved. I take the proverbial torches and pitchforks for that.

It's also - alongside other, wholly unrelated circumstances - led to me spiraling into a deep depression...my own self destruction. Never claimed I wasn't self destructing, either. It's led to me watching someone close to me exhibit the very same bipolar behaviors that my wife once did, while having a family history of bipolar. It's led to me expressing those concerns to her, only to have them dismissed (as expected, truthfully). Voicing those concerns and repeatedly voicing my disapproval of the affair and the affair partner have led to a distance between formerly close friends. Ironically, it's also led to that best friend insisting I continue seeking professional help for my depression, while refusing to even consider seeing a professional to eliminate (or confirm) her bipolar.

It's also led to me learning that members of her family have told her husband over the years that they suspect she's bipolar, but he's now reluctant to reach out to them, since they'd be on "her side." And that, about 9 years ago, when they first had problems and sought counseling, following their final session, the counselor pulled him aside and said, "You're never going to get what you want from this relationship. If you're fine with not getting everything you want, then stay. If you're not fine with that, you should consider getting out now." He's doing well...as well as can be expected, anyway.

So...hazy expectations for the thread. Even hazier results. The only sure result being a deepening of my own depression. There's a pithy, humorous reference rolling in the back of my mind if I were to list some of the factors weighing on me, but it's not appropriate to my meaning right now. Suffice to say, the loss of my mother, my stepfather being a horse's behind in the aftermath, a contentious struggle regarding my mother's house, a dying marriage of my own, another good friend's dying relationship and unemployment struggles, topped off by watching my best friend's marriage die and all of the resulting side issues we've discussed here, I'm clutching at the very frayed end of my rope, and my search for help with that gets confounded at every turn...either doctors no longer with the practice, who won't see family of former patients to ensure confidentiality, doctors who closed their practice months ago, doctors who don't respond to appointment requests, doctors referred to as "very helpful" by someone clearly not in good mental health currently and whose bipolar was missed by that doctor...the list goes on.

No attempt at garnering sympathy...just spelling out everything in one final post to the thread. I'll leave it up for a few hours, so anyone so inclined can see the current state of the situation, and get their last kicks in, then delete the thread later today. I'd say the thread did or didn't serve its purpose, but since I'm not even sure what that purpose was...I can't.

Sorry to everyone involved, here and "in the world," for acting so out of character. It was a no-win scenario, and that bore out...I lost. In every way imaginable, I lost. See you all in other threads sometime, where maybe I'll be me again, and a little bit of my sanity will be restored.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Sorry for your state, but I suggest leaving the thread for others that may need the same guidance as you did but are afraid to ask for it. They can then see the dilemmas at play and weigh their decisions accordingly.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Hi Grayson, sorry for the state of your friendship with her. The problem was never her bipolar personality, it was the specific choice she made to cheat and put you in the middle of it.

As you know, the affair will end, she will be down and out and will seek your support for a fleeting moment in time. When it happens, be her friend but don't forget what happened and how she has treated you when she chose the dark side.

As for all your other losses, I can offer no sympathy since I don't know you other than the words you type here, but I have a shred of empathy I can offer. Sounds like a struggle at the moment but I have seen how strong you can be and passionate about what you know is right, so you'll get through this bout soon enough, I just hope you recognize it when you do so you can get on with living the kind of life you want. There is no need to apologize to anyone on here for anything, though I do hope you don't toast this thread. Either way though, take care and best wishes for 2015 to you!


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Not an easy decision to make and I honestly don't think one is necessarily all that better than the other. I think the lesson here however is try not to let yourself get put in that type of position to begin with.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Grayson,

Your biggest mistake here was made at the outset.

Once you were aware of her cheating, you should have instantly told her that, while you were perfectly willing to hold her confidences about wanting to D, you would not in any way protect or hide her infidelity.

You should have told her she had a day to tell her BH herself, or you as his friend were going to out the A.

Frankly, she was a pretty sh*tty friend to involve you in the secrets of her adultery anyway, as she must have been aware of your past.

Instead, you allowed a combination of depression, bitterness, and a jaded view of M (all of which primarily are the result of your own failing M due to your WW's infidelity) to sideline your own morals and conscience.

You stood on the sidelines and watched this disaster unfold, taking no steps to mitigate the destruction that is about to impact both of your friends and their children in the coming months. 

I think you should seriously consider getting some counseling to try to figure out how and why you could have let yourself just passively play a part in so destructive a scenario...especially since I suspect that your passivity was primarily the result of your unresolved feelings and issues about your own collapsing M.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Hate kicking some one when there down but his moral compass is skewed


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## Curse of Millhaven (Feb 16, 2013)

As I’ve already let you know privately, I’m so very sorry for all that you are going through and that your depression has deepened. If you need to nuke this thread because the vulnerability and exposure is too much, I completely understand, but I think you should let it stand and use it as a place to vent your frustrations and post updates on your situation. Don’t allow negativity to prey on you or let perceived “pitchforks and torches” drive you off; illegitimi non carborundum, my friend. I wish you would turn this thread’s frown upside down and use it as a source of support for yourself. Especially since your main source (such as it was) is now otherwise occupied with her own selfish self, you need some place you can go for clarity and help as you navigate the minefield of your life. I know the Coping w/Infidelity section can be rough, but there are sparks of light amid all the darkness…they might just show you safe passage and the way home. 

I’m not a fan of “Mary”, for all the obvious reasons, but mostly because I think she has been a horrible friend to you in your greatest time of need. If I had a friend like you that was grieving a significant loss, contemplating divorce, and suffering from depression, I would not burden them with my problems or use them as an emotional dumping ground. She is selfishness personified. As we've already covered, I believe her cheating has little to do with any “mental illness” and everything to do with the fact that she is a self-involved, self-absorbed opportunist who uses people. She’s a black hole and you got sucked into the vortex of her narcissism. 

I won't opine as to whether she has bipolar disorder or not; I don't know her and it's above my pay grade to diagnose or even speculate. I've worked in psych research and in psychiatric hospitals and medical schools; I'm familiar personally and professionally with the many faces of the hydra of "mental illness". From what you have mentioned here, other than possible "hypersexuality" and potential genetic predisposition (is her mother in fact professionally diagnosed with the disorder?), I'm not really seeing enough to merit even an armchair diagnosis. But you know her best, have personal immediate experience with the symptomatology of the disorder, and if you say you see the signs then I believe you do. I agree with you that it doesn't excuse or exonerate her behavior, but to me as an outsider it still seems as though you are laboring under the assumption that she has it because it will in many ways "explain" away her actions. Sorry, but that's just how it appears to me.

I realize you view Mary as your BFF and that you are not only grieving the death of your mother and possibly the end of your marriage, but now also the loss of your friendship with Mary. And for that I am sorry. It’s very sad that when you need people the most, their true colors come out and their palette is often ugly. I too had a long term friendship end simultaneously with the death of my father. One of my best friends (since age 9) couldn’t be bothered to acknowledge my father’s death, offer minimal support, or even send a generic sympathy card after he passed. I had been a loving, giving friend to her for decades and been there for her in so many ways, but when I needed her, she completely abandoned me and didn’t even offer a one sentence condolence of “I’m sorry for your loss.” In retrospect I realized that all those years I had been her friend…she had not been mine. Not really. I suspect that when you look back on your relationship with Mary, you may recognize the same fair-weather pattern of her “friendship”.

And I told you privately, but I will say it here publically…for what it is worth, I still think you are an honorable good man. You gave your word to keep a friend’s confidence and you don’t break your word, but your conscience clamored for you to tell her husband because you knew it was the “right thing” to do…either way you were going to betray someone and damage a bond, but truly the greatest betrayal and damage was incurred by you and to your sense of self. You’ve flagellated yourself for your friend’s sins. And for this I place the blame where it belongs…on Mary. She should not have put you in this position and especially not when you were so vulnerable and dealing with so much. And I think the fact that all of this has haunted and tortured you so deeply is a testament to your integrity and decency. You tried to be a good friend but you couldn’t be one to them both and this has torn you apart. There was no winning here…your chips were down and your “friend” dealt you a sh!t hand. You were drawing dead no matter what you did.

I hope some of this makes some kind of sense and conveys my concern for you. If not, I'm sorry; no sleep running on fumes here. No matter what I wish you peace, healing, and relief from your suffering, my friend. I do hope you use this site as a resource and for the positive support that can be found here…let the good eclipse the bad. Take care of yourself, Grayson, and please keep posting with your progress. Godspeed.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Thanks once again, Curse. You've been exceedingly kind, even when I don't necessarily feel that I deserve it. While I'm loathe to post in the thread any further (I've heard convincing arguments for keeping it around - you're included) because I don't want to be the one keeping it active, I wanted to publicly thank you, even though I've done so in private.

Yes, there's some personal peace and closure to be had in finding a reason...a source where such a sudden shift in behavior comes from. And, granted, I've hit just a few bullet points here. As I've told you, I've noticed a lot of behavior that is best for beat identical to my wife's own manias. In the aftermath of her affair, when my wife self-diagnosed as a sex/love addict, her psychiatrist dismissed it, asking her, "How do you know it wasn't just your mania?" because it fit that, as well. At the same time, he conceded that, if treating it as such helped her get a grip on it, he wasn't going to argue with the results. (And, to answer your question, yes, Mary's mother has been formally diagnosed years ago.) And, with both my wife and Mary, it can be painful to see glimpses of the people who matter to me, only to see them just as quickly replaced by virtual strangers.

For me, the days ebb and flow. I've wondered for years if I might not meet the clinical definition of depression, and I'm now concluding that I do. Now, if only I could get into a doctor to verify or eliminate that self-diagnosis.... 

Keeping or nuking the thread...I still don't know. If I keep it, it will morph to a point that doesn't quite fit in CWI, but the history of the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back does. Then there's the simple fact that deleting it via my phone appears to not be all that easy...I don't see the option. (Not using the new mobile interface as I find it quite buggy and inoperable most of the time.)

Once again, my thanks for your supportive words.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Ask for it to be locked perhaps?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Gayson, check out the book "The Mood Cure". Lots of natural healthy supplements which can fight depression or other mood disorders as effectively as Rx meds, without the negative side effects.


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