# Might these things be subconscious?



## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

I've been married eight years. We've had our ups and downs for sure, like most couples I suspect.

My husband can be a bit fiery toward me--not abusive or condescending. But, he uses anger and complaining to get his way. I'm kind of a silent sufferer, although he might say differently. I'm not timid, but anger (used to) scare me.

I feel a bit trapped in our relationship. I don't feel as though I can be myself. I often feel as though I dance around his needs and forget my own. I think I've spoiled him this way and am trying to dig my way out of it.

Since he has no close friends (he always finds something wrong with people and just doesn't feel it is worth it), I am almost the only social contact he has. He doesn't like his mother, and he and his only brother basically don't speak. Both our families are 500 miles away.

I have six siblings and can pretty easily make friends. I don't have any local friends now b/c we've moved two times in the past five years and are currently building a house (just the two of us) on 50 acres.

Anyway, I often seem to do dumb things that affect him. His back/hip have been bothering him (due to injury five years ago) in the past week. Well, last week just after a chiro adjustment I left something on the floor where I was working and he tripped over it and jarred his back again (I thought I should warn him but figured I'd be done before he came through the room). Then, just today(after he's been in pain and to the chiro two days ago), as we were driving to the chiropractor, I accidentally hit the brake as I was stepping on the clutch and caused the car to very suddenly slow down. I never do that, although I had something on the floor near my feet that was messing up my footing. He screamed in pain and screamed at me as well, things like "why would you do that" and "why don't you just trip me."

I've apologized a bunch of times and he said sorry doesn't cut it. Needless to say he's pretty upset.

This is going to sound really terrible--I feel bad, but he is so fiery it is hard for me to be truly compassionate. I am mostly afraid. I often just start hating myself, hating my life, considering ending it because I've been so uncomfortable for a long time.

It is always something that I'm doing that hurts him. I mean, I have no idea how I could not. It is really hard to be around him. And, as I think about it, there's nobody else in his life. Sometimes I wonder who could be or would choose to be.

Don't get me wrong, he is not a terrible person. He is very caring. He is also super careful. Maybe I'm just careless.

I just find it difficult to be married to him. And, poor guy, I'm sure he feels the same way about me because he always feels hurt by me.

So, I have to wonder if I'm doing this stuff sub-consciously. Maybe I feel so trapped and just don't know how to respond. Or, maybe I'm angry at the anger he's thrown at me over the years.

Or, is he just hard to be with and requires me to be more than I can be.

Interested in any thoughts.

Thank you,
Kerry


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

OH boy, you are not careless, he is manipulating you dear. Some other people on here can give you better advice then I on this particular matter.

but by no means are you the problem, and stop apologizing to him. Tell him tough and to live with it. Sorry that he is hurt, but nothing you can do about it, no need to apologize for the car incident, it was a slip up. I yelled at my wife the otherday for something stupid, the following day I apologized to her for being irrational. I posted the issue on here and people here gave me some tough love, but hey I deserved it, I took it like a man.

You are a vibrant woman, no need to be treated like a child, you are not, you are his wife. You may need to put him in his place.

Sorry his back hurts, so does mine, but it's no ones fault. Certainly not yours.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Wow, thank you. I can't tell you how much of this I deal with. I would say at least every week something like this happens. I feel pretty certain there is no way he is going to change (uh, duh). I truly hate to say this, but I may have to end the relationship. Maybe I am being extreme, but, really, he is such a loner and do-it-yourselfer that I don't see him doing the therapy thing or anything.

I know that I have been manipulated for a long time. He doesn't even know he is manipulating. Sometimes I wonder if things "hurt" more than he thinks b/c it works out for him to be the injured one. Not sure, but do wonder this.

Thanks for some fresh air. I really needed it.

Warmly,
Kerry


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

I have a herniated disk in my lowerback, been living with it for a year, I exercise, I play soccer, I do everything normal, but sure it aches and hurts, I deal with it.

I can have surgery if I wanted, but most herniated disks heal on their own.

But before "killing the marriage" I would see if he will go to counseling first. I would stand up for myself. Be a WOMAN, don't take his crap.

My wife is a petite little thing, when I am a jerk, she tells me I am being a jerk, she gives it right back to me. I repsect her and love her and sometimes she opens my eyes and I stop and say you're rigth I am a jerk, Sorry and thanks. Then we move on.

No one will stand up for you, other then YOU! Don't be a dorrmat.

best of luck


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Welcome, Kerry!



Kerry said:


> I've apologized a bunch of times and he said sorry doesn't cut it. Needless to say he's pretty upset.
> 
> This is going to sound really terrible--I feel bad, but he is so fiery it is hard for me to be truly compassionate.


You sound like such a warm, caring person and I'm sorry you have to hear 'sorry doesn't cut it' from your husband. I would have a hard time being truly compassonate too, based on his reaction.


Kerry said:


> I am mostly afraid. I often just start hating myself, hating my life, considering ending it because I've been so uncomfortable for a long time.


Please take this as a sign. If you are feeling this low when you are with him, take steps to either better the marriage or get out. You don't deserve to feel this way within your marriage.



Kerry said:


> Maybe I'm just careless.
> 
> ...
> Or, is he just hard to be with and requires me to be more than I can be.


You do not sound careless...my husband is very good at cleaning up as he goes, etc. but I am the one usually doing several things at once...leaving this here while I do that, etc. and could easily see myself in your shoes. Some people are better at focusing on one project at a time and being thorough, while others are better at multi-tasking several things at once.

Based on the info that he has isolated himself with everyone except you, I would say he is difficult to be with. It also sounds as though he doesn't mind having isolated himself. 

I agree with GASoccerman...that you will probably feel better if you try to get him to work on improving your marriage. If he truely would rather be how he is and all alone, I don't know there is much you could do from there other than leave, but at least you will be giving him a chance to make changes which could be an eye-opener for him. If he does not respond, you will feel you've done all you can if you decide to end the marriage.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Okay, again, thanks to you guys.

I just really need to check back in. I am so confused and doubting/second guessing everything.

Now, his back was really messed up and I knew it. I was driving him to the chiropractor. I mean, that was a really mindless thing to do and I never do that (hit the brake when I mean to clutch).

Then again, if it wasn't that it would have been that I hit a bump or some other thing. As I reflect back, there are so so many days that I cried b/c he was hard on me. I know it is my own choice/fault to tolerate it. I am not a victim...I have allowed this to become my life.

I wonder if this is what he does. He finds things wrong so that he can be the one in control (engineer). Plus, I've wondered for a while if he always finds things wrong with other people before they find anything wrong with him.

He is still mad at me right now. This tension is draining, but I have nowhere to go. Plus, my life is kind of heavy (and restricted) at this moment b/c my German Shepherd (he is like my child) is 14 1/2 and he is doing just ok, at best. 

My hubby works for himself from home, so he's' always here (I used to work from home, but am currently laid off). Plus, we're in the middle of building a home (by ourselves basically) on 50 acres (scary for me...even more isolated). The one good thing is I have some level of financial stability, thankfully.

Anyway, I can't tell you how comforting it is to have someone to talk with. Even if you guys didn't agree with me. I am feeling pretty low right now.

Thank you,
Kerry


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## Terran007 (Jun 14, 2009)

Well Kerry, for one, you gotta really reread what you wrote. You say he's mean to you, and that you've let yourself get manipulated, and then that you have considered taking your own life. Those things just don't add up as far as reasonable. You're doing the best you can, and because he doesn't respect you enough to stop demeaning you doesn't mean you should take your own life. It means you should kick him in the testicles.

Why the heck would it be your fault?

You have an interesting position of advantage here that you're probably not seeing. You're about to make a big investment together and he is all alone if not for you. This is the time to straighten your spine and tell him what's on your mind. And if he wants to make that big of an investment with you, that he needs to change, *and* go to therapy with you to get things straightened out, or the marriage won't work out.

I can relate to your situation to some extent, because I used to have back pain, but I would never take it out on my wife. He's being a jerk - let him know it no matter *how* angry he gets.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Terran,

Since you said you have back pain--even if you were really hurting and your wife knew but she did something kind of careless (albeit accidentally), you wouldn't be the least bit bothered?

I have have to ask b/c I've been around this so long I can't imagine that reality. So, I'm just double checking.

Thanks,
Kerry


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

To all,

I would be in a completely different mindset if it were for your support. Thank you again for your support. 

He is still upset with me and not really speaking much.

I have no idea how I'm going to break it to him that I'm done with this pattern, but I feel pretty sure that I am done. I know for sure he will be appalled that I dare "try to turn this around on him." I won't talk with him until I'm ready to stick to my guns.

I feel sick to my stomach thinking about how many times a situation like this has happened in our marriage, and how much I've taken on. What control I have given him!

I'm just going to lie down and rest, and be with my doggie as much as possible tonight. I need some rest for sure.

Kerry


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

Hang in there, girl! 

YOU are NOT to blame for his problems! Keep saying that to yourself! 

If he wants to (female dog), let him. Tell him...that's YOUR problem, not mine! 

Take a stance, girl...hold to it! MAKE him learn, to get over it! 

His life is HIS responsibility, not yours. 

Dang, I really hate people like that! And maybe a lot of them don't know that they're doing it. That they are damaging their relationship doing it. 

Throw out the ultimate threat...If HE doesn't do (whatever)...you will file for divorce. But only do it if you mean it! He MUST do something for your marriage. Do not renege on your threat or you will be seen as weak and not willing to follow through. This means he wins. 

If he doesn't (want to) change, file! FORCE him to confront reality! But make sure that any changes are going to be long term. 

I'm so sorry, girl. If I had a magic wand, I'd be perfect, too!


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Hi DCRIM,

Wow, thank for the encouragement. I am hanging in there.

I wish I had a magic wand too. I know there is so much pain in the world.

I am still just in shock. I really have been thinking all along that there is something wrong with me. I don't want this to be a bash fest on my husband. He is not a terrible person, by any means. He really has a kind heart. But, he also has issues that he doesn't seem to want to face and he's used them to protect himself for a long time.

As you can imagine, I'm kind of heartbroken at the moment to just have all this right in my face. Yea, I've seen it for years, but, you know, sometimes it just takes that one moment for the light to really go on.

I know I have to stay strong right now. I mean, he's thinking I'm going to dance our usual dance where I feel bad and he has control.

All the encouragement helps more than I can express.

Thanks,
-K


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## preso (May 1, 2009)

Sounds to me like he may be in terrible pain most of the time.

When I had PMS I was like that and would get real mean.. because I hurt so bad, so tense from pain. Pain can change a persons personality, big time.
I think you should help him with finding pain relief before you write him off.


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## Dark Angel (Jun 17, 2009)

You gotta draw a line in the sand with this guy or he's going to continue to walk all over you untill you are one of the floorboards of your new house!

Don't make threats about leaving unless you are serious about it.

Has it always been like this? Or did it start / get worse when you began building this house?


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

Kerry...we should, each of us, feel loved and cherished. 

That's the point of marriage, being together. 

If you're not feeling that, tell him! Communication is key to to any relationship. Marriage, too. 

If he doesn't care...tell him you'll file. I promise that will wake him up!


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

I think he gets on you and is mean because he thinks you will just "take it" whenever he dishes it out - and you have out of love for him. Put your foot down, tell him having pain is no excuse to be mean or treat you like everything is your fault.

Am sorry about your GSD, he is getting up there in age, isn't he? I love my GS, he is only 19 months now though, he is my baby too! See him on my profile! PM me if you like.

Good luck, these guys on here are good support, great bunch.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Dark Angel said:


> Has it always been like this? Or did it start / get worse when you began building this house?


It has been like this for a long time--most of our marriage.

It has always been something. For example, one time I grabbed the wrong bike bag of his and we discovered so after we drove 1.5 hours to a trail. He made me feel pretty bad about it and didn't speak to me for at least a day.

It is always something, and not always about physical pain.

He is always saying I should be more careful. I think it is a situation that feeds itself and gets bigger b/c I am often on edge b/c I'm nervous about doing something "wrong."


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

Sandy55 said:


> Am sorry about your GSD, he is getting up there in age, isn't he? I love my GS, he is only 19 months now though, he is my baby too! See him on my profile! PM me if you like.
> 
> Good luck, these guys on here are good support, great bunch.


Yes, 14 1/2 is very rare for a GS dog. I've been doing the best I can to control pain without stomach upset, but we're just about out of options.  I won't let him suffer, for sure. 

It is about as heart-wrenching as my marriage situation. My husband and I met walking our dogs in the park.

I'll PM you a bit of info once I have the energy.

-K


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

When he is in pain ask him: "Are you in pain? is that why you are crabby? i'm sorry you are in pain, i'll do what I can to help you but I won't tolerate verbal abuse" 

If he is not in pain but mad at something you did or didn't do you tell him: "I'm sorry for that, i'll try to remember but I am human and make mistakes like you do, but I won't tolerate you treating me this way. 

Next time he won't talk to you, go about your business and ignore him. When he does talk be careful what you respond to, if it's demeaning in any way, don't respond. If it is loving and kind, respond right away. 

*All behaviors will increase or decrease based on your response*

By him getting mad at you and you shirking he IS manipulating you and you are reinforcing that. Don't do that. Remember whatever he says and does that you respond in a favorable way (for him) is MUCH more likely to occur. It's good old fashioned Operant Reinforcement which I believe in. Subconscious has nothing to do with it, you are reinforcing many behaviors that are only reinforcing for him but detrimental toward you. A good read is: Aubrey Daniels "Other People's Habits." Good luck....


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

martino said:


> When he is in pain ask him: "Are you in pain? is that why you are crabby? i'm sorry you are in pain, i'll do what I can to help you but I won't tolerate verbal abuse"


Thanks for your tips. I'm concerned, though, that you missed something. He isn't always in pain, although he did fracture his hip five years ago and it affects his back.

This situation was a specific instance where he was in very obvious pain and I accidentally caused him additional pain.

I can do and have done the above actually (not in the exact words), and he gets that. He is not unreasonable, but I do think there is manipulation going on.

I just want to make sure we're all clear. 

-K


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## Sensitive (Mar 29, 2009)

I also feel I am being too submissive and can't stand up to my husband to make any changes. I try to pick my battles, so as to not sound like a nagging critical wife all the time. I also feel I am no longer myself, and find it easier to cry and wish my life was over because I don't have the strength to continue leading an empty life. Suffering any medical condition, whether physical or psychological will strain any relationship. Rather than feeling trapped in the marriage, get out and make some friends. Being stuck in the house all day with your husband is bound to make anyone batty.


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## Terran007 (Jun 14, 2009)

Kerry said:


> Terran,
> 
> Since you said you have back pain--even if you were really hurting and your wife knew but she did something kind of careless (albeit accidentally), you wouldn't be the least bit bothered?
> 
> ...


I have had a herniated disc for two years before I did anything about it. It was crippling me literally, to where I had to use a wheelchair at the grocery store, and at work (I worked at a hospital doing technician labor trade, so I was able to access wheelchairs). I had a back surgery done and she was there to help me. Recovery time for that was 3 weeks.

I had a double lumbar laminectomy 1.5 years ago (extremely invasive surgery), recovery time was 5 months, and she was there to support me. Before I had that surgery I was in pain, but the pain was no where near as bad as my first surgery.

Now I don't have nearly as bad of issues with pain as I did before the surgeries, although I have my good days and bad days (I have hydrocodone for those days  ). And in all that, yes. Even though my wife was very careful, my wife would do things by accident, such as maybe shift on the couch without telling me, or brake too hard in the car...

Yes of course it hurt me, but it's not her fault so why even think about blaming her? I would still shout out in pain or whatever, and might direct my anger towards her for a split second in my head, but only to be overcome with reason. 

Isn't it the same with you? Same as if someone were to step on your toes by accident? You might feel anger towards that person for a split second, but you realize it was not something they meant to do, right?

Apparently, your husband would be mad at the person that stepped on their toe according to what you're saying. Apparently, he has issues with logic on top of emotional ones.

Tell him it's not your fault, that it's gravity's fault. Then kick him in the pants and say "now _that's_ my fault". Hey, if someone's going to be mad at you and you're going to feel bad about it, then at least give yourself and him a reason for it to be legitimate.


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

LOL when my kids would cry about something, I'd tell them to stop or I'd give them a reason to cry. They quit crying & complaining.  

OP's H needs to grow up. I'm sure it hurts, but accidents are just that. If he continues to complain, kick his rear end.


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## Terran007 (Jun 14, 2009)

dcrim said:


> LOL when my kids would cry about something, I'd tell them to stop or I'd give them a reason to cry. They quit crying & complaining.
> 
> OP's H needs to grow up. I'm sure it hurts, but accidents are just that. If he continues to complain, kick his rear end.


lol :iagree:
This post gets :smthumbup: from me!


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Kerry, 

Yes I understand it was an accident that you stepped on the brakes. Shouldn't one full apology be enough? after that if he
is still mistreating you, you are either allowing it and reinforcing 
it, or you are not. It's up to you and how highly you think of 
yourself.


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## Kerry (Jan 9, 2009)

I am curious about something. What makes you guys call this behavior manipulative? I would just like to understand this issue more deeply.

Thank you,
-K


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## martino (May 12, 2008)

Definition:

manipulative 
A adjective 
1 manipulative

skillful in influencing or controlling others to your own advantage; "the early manipulative techniques of a three-year-old" 


Look up "manipulative" at Merriam-Webster
Look up "manipulative" at dictionary.com 

Forum discussions with the word(s) 'manipulative' in the title:
No titles with the word(s) 'manipulative'.For any questions about this word or definition:
Ask in the forums yourself.
Visit the English Only Forum.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Every relationship forms a dynamic. Ideally, we would all like that dynamic to be positive and beneficial to both partners. Realistically, that is rarely the case.
A common dynamic in marriages is the parent/child relationship. The parent is dominant, forms the rules, guidelines and expectations for the relationship and lets the other partner, the child, know when they have stepped outside of those rules, guidelines, and expectations.
The parent has control and power. The child, willingly or unwillingly surrenders both.
His behavior is manipulative because he uses it to _his_ advantage, and to _your_ detriment.
Based upon your description of him and his inability to relate to others, I can't imagine that this man would have a partner at all unless it was one that he could demean and control.

You have only one real workable option; change your behavior. Whatever that might be. The most radical and effective thing I can think of would be for you to leave, and go stay with family for a few weeks. With some distance from the current circumstances and the support of family, you will be far better equipped to evaluate what you want from your marriage and what you are willing to tolerate. It will also be a hell of a wake up call for your husband.


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